# Fan and SuperFan



## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

a discussion concerning the works held dear by enthusiasts of certain composers...

Several years ago, I opined that Bruckner's 8th Symphony was "The Bruckner Geek's Bruckner symphony" in the same way that Mahler's 6th was "The Mahler Geek's Mahler symphony." I haven't revised my position that much since making that assertion. However, I've recently thought that those can't be the only examples.

My premise is that there are certain works by certain composers that are esteemed by their fans- and esteemed out-of-proportion to the regard held by non-enthusiasts of the composer(s) in question.

I think another example is Wagner's _Götterdämmerung_. Oh, you can find non-Wagnerians apostrophizing _Tristan und Isolde_, but it seems it takes a Wagner Geek to wax rhapsodic about _Götterdämmerung_. [And maybe only Wagner Geeks can put _Götterdämmerung_ on the same plane as 'T&I' and do so with a straight face!]

I can speculate about other possibilities... but I'd really like to turn it over to you-
What do YOU think??


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Sibelius is so full of examples... most non-Sibelius geeks only think Finlandia-Violin Concerto-2nd Symphony and occasionally of the 5th symphony as well, but the real die-hard Sibelius nerds go for symphonies 3, 4, 6, and 7, and Tapiola, which appear very "forbidding" to non-Sibelians.

Enescu: Most people think of the Romanian Rhapodies, while Enescutians know those to be horribly unrepresentative of his art and pretty much insulting to his gifts. 3rd symphony and Oedipe are his real masterpieces.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I would have thought Mahlers 7 would fit the bill more than the 6. Its more difficult to get into and fully appreciate.

Otherwise I would select the Stabat Mater for Dvorak. I dont know too many other big Dvorak fans so its a very personal choice, but it fits your description.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Handel's _The Messiah_.

They even sang the _Hallelujah_ chorus out of surprise to Christmas shoppers in a shopping mall, as we saw recently from a few clips posted here recently. 

People even stand up during the _Hallelujah_ chorus that concludes Part II during concert performances (as opposed to stuffing their mouths with food in the shopping clips referred to above).

Over 100 recorded versions of the work. 

Part of the Christmas music tradition in many parts of the western world, at least. Certainly is here.

And yes, it's even more popular than Bruckner's symphonies and Mahler's symphonies because of general appeal to the masses.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

1. *Berlioz* - Les Troyens. It's demanding work which many avoid because of it's lenght, they think "that Berlioz is second rate, no way he could write 5 hour opera that doesn't bore!". Well, mistake! For Berlioz fans it's major argument that he doesn't end on much more popular SF. But it's often ignored by rest of classical listeners.

2. "He's only for solo piano"

a) *Chopin* - cello sonata in G minor. Because of less wise people making "only solo piano" propaganda it's omitted by non-aficionados of Chopin. But real chopinists know that it's masterpiece of chamber music and one of his bests.

b) *Liszt* - och, there are many. Faust symphony for example. There was a guy called Hexameron on TC and he mantioned it as one of fav symphonies ever. It's totally odd and noone that isn't great fan of Ferenc wouldn't put it on such list.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I wonder if it might be a bit of a generalisation to say those who like a particular composer a bit more are about to agree on one work being more of a favourite than other people. This may be the most questionable with composers who wrote a very large number of works. Perhaps if there are pieces that are thought to epitomize a composer's style in some way then those who like them more may hold them in higher regard than others.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

1) *Schumann* - Davidbundlertanze, Kreisleriana, Fantasy in C, various songs.
Hardcore fans still place at the top his Piano Concerto (and maybe the Quintet and Quartet), yet are not so hung up about the Symphonies, the Carnaval, and the Cello Concerto (even though this piece in itself is a bit underrated).

2) *Prokofiev* - Symphonies No. 2, 6, Piano Concertos No. 2, 5, Piano Sonatas 6-8, War and Peace
We generally aren't enthusiastic about lightweight like Lt. Kije, Classical Symphony, Peter and the Wolf, Toccata, or even his two most famous ballets.

2) *Beethoven* - For hardcore Beethoven fans, the symphonies aren't worth talking about, except maybe the 3rd. The 9th is good but too well-known. The piano sonatas and chamber music are really something. I think we're most hung up on the last 5 sonatas. The op. 131 string quartet is good, but op. 132 is for some reason 'cooler' to like. Appreciating the Grosse Fugue also makes us feel elite.

Too many to name...

By the way, these are not necessarily my opinions (a lot of them actually are though ), just my observations of the so-called 'hardcore' fans for these composers.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Air said:


> 1) *Schumann* - Davidbundlertanze, Kreisleriana, Fantasy in C, various songs.
> Hardcore fans still place at the top his Piano Concerto (and maybe the Quintet and Quartet), yet are not so hung up about the Symphonies, the Carnaval, and the Cello Concerto (even though this piece in itself is a bit underrated).
> 
> 2) *Prokofiev* - Symphonies No. 2, 6, Piano Concertos No. 2, 5, Piano Sonatas 6-8, War and Peace
> ...


But my point is you can't really speak for every 'fan' (I don't like that word used with music really, I think it's more for sport), each will have their own favourites.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I thought this thread was about works that fans and non-fans (including the general masses) would appreciate.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

starry said:


> But my point is you can't really speak for every 'fan' (I don't like that word used with music really, I think it's more for sport), each will have their own favourites.


Yeah, it's a general observation though, not my opinion. General 'trends' _do_ form over time among the 'hard-core' group. Just like CTP mentioned how the 9th symphony is more popular than the 4th and 7th among Bruckner 'Megafans'.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Air said:


> Yeah, it's a general observation though, not my opinion. General 'trends' _do_ form over time among the 'hard-core' group. Just like CTP mentioned how the 9th symphony is more popular than the 4th and 7th among Bruckner 'Megafans'.


Well with Beethoven I think his late works are pretty much standard recommendations anyway. Of course most wouldn't start with them but they are still generally praised.

I don't really follow a crowd anyway, I just like what I like.


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## Musicbox (Jan 20, 2011)

I would have though the 5th was the Bruckner Geeks fave... certainly is mine, then the 9th. All that incredible architectural structure. Don't care much for the overblown 8th.

Mahler - _Das Lied von Der Erde_ would be this Mahler Geek's choice.

And Wagner? All a Wagner Geek really needs is act 3 of Parsifal.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

World Violist said:


> Sibelius is so full of examples... most non-Sibelius geeks only think Finlandia-Violin Concerto-2nd Symphony and occasionally of the 5th symphony as well, but the real die-hard Sibelius nerds go for symphonies 3, 4, 6, and 7, and Tapiola, which appear very "forbidding" to non-Sibelians.


Haha, _bravo_, *World Violist*, _bravo!_ Caught the spirit of the thing perfectly!!

Ask a Sibelius enthusiast and a non-enthusiast general listener what their favorite Siblius work is, and you have an EXCELLENT chance of getting entirely different answers!


Air said:


> Appreciating the Grosse Fuge also makes us feel elite.


I like that addition, too.

It's hard to analogize the place of the _Grosse Fuge_ to the place of any other work (by anyone). There are a lot of screens in front of it (many of our own making, I'm sure). First, someone can claim to 'love Beethoven,' know and admire the symphonies, piano concertos, etc. and have precious little exposure to the chamber music. Then, those who have heard the _Grosse Fuge_, *particularly* in context, diverge in many ways. First, there are the fanatics. Then, there are those who hear it and utterly reject it. (Tchaikovsky falls into this camp- so you can have some musical ability and still come to this conclusion.) Then, there are those who listen respectfully and come away not repulsed, but with the sense that they must have missed something. (I guess I fall into that third group.)


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I don't think the Sibelius 3rd or 6th symphonies are really forbidding, just lesser known. The 4th and 7th perhaps might be more daunting, though of course they are still considered by many who know them to be great pieces.

Those who hear something and just utterly reject them probably don't have an open enough mind. I really don't think you have to be a 'fanatic' to like the Grosse Fugue. Of course it's a relatively complex work so it's not exactly a starting point work.

I'm not sure it helps if people are fanatical geeks anyway, it probably means they over-identify with a composer and don't try to see the composer more objectively within the overall context of music. I wouldn't say *all* the music of any composer is brilliant, they all do weaker works as well as good ones.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I thought this thread was about works that fans and non-fans (including the general masses) would appreciate.


Your own example of Handel fits the thread perfectly though. Most people will praise The Messiah, but the hardcore Handel fanatics praise his operas.

For myself, I don't know that I am a fanatic about any one composer, so I don't necessarily champion the more obscure works. Beethoven comes the closest, but I listen to him less and less these days. But the principle doesn't apply here because I do like all the symphonies, especially the well known 9th. I enjoy the Grosse Fuge too and think it's a brilliant work, but not so much for normal day to day entertainment. As I am a visual person I had a better time understanding it with visual aids. In this video (or perhaps if I had a score) I can see the fugue when hearing it gets too complicated.






So for me, it's all good even the popular pieces.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

emiellucifuge said:


> I would have thought Mahlers 7 would fit the bill more than the 6. Its more difficult to get into and fully appreciate.


I think you have a point--while 7 might not be the _favorite_ symphony of most Mahlerites, if someone loves it, it's a pretty good indicator that they're a serious Mahler enthusiast. I didn't particularly like 7 until I had really gotten into Mahler, despite it being the first of his symphonies I was exposed to and the only Mahler I've performed.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I love the 7th much more than the 5th. I find the 'Wunderhorn' symphonies to be too 'surface'. Its hard to explain but they tend to deal with extra-musical ideas and depict these rather than addressing 'Ur' or core deep human emotions. I understand many people find the 5th his best but I would take anything from 6 onwards as they all aim for something much deeper.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Everyone knows Erik Satie's Gymnopedies, but the real enthusiasts I've known have several copies of Socrate, the orchestral and piano versions. Ned Rorem used to sing parts of it to himself every week just for inspiration.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Well, 5 is really a middle period symphony like 7 and I think the middle period symphonies are my favorites (with the exception of 8, which I love a little less, and which only sometimes gets called middle period anyway). Not that that's necessarily indicative of the taste of most Mahler fans. I agree (and think most people would) about the relatively shallow and/or programmatic nature of the "easier" _Wunderhorn_ symphonies compared to his later works, but I still harbor a soft spot for the 1st.


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> My premise is that there are certain works by certain composers that are esteemed by their fans- and esteemed out-of-proportion to the regard held by non-enthusiasts of the composer(s) in question.


Absolutely, and you could find examples of this across all styles of music.

Ever notice how people often don't like a given piece of music when they first hear it, but then after another listen or two they start to like it? This is due to the fundamental process of cognitive adaptation through familiarity. We hear a particular piece of music a few times, and before long we find ourselves bobbing our heads to the tune, or tapping our feet. The fact is that this initial adaptation process can occur even if we don't consciously realize that it is happening, and then all of a sudden, on perhaps the second or third listen, we perk up and say, "You know, I kinda like this."

Simply put, our conscious mind is receiving the signal that what we are experiencing is familiar, and therefore "safe". Thus, we can begin to derive pleasure from the experience (as long as we have no conceptual biases that would prevent us from doing so), and this can create a powerful positive feedback loop: the more we listen to something, the more we like it, and thus the more we listen to it, etc. So, because the die-hard fans of a particular composer tend to delve more thoroughly into that composer's lesser known works, they become much more familiar with those works, and they naturally tend to like them a lot more than any of the non-enthusiasts do.

Now of course there is more to liking/disliking something than just adaptation, but this process plays a very significant role in the early stages of experience with any given musical stimuli. In addition, too much familiarity over time can breed contempt, and that contempt can potentially cause people to rate a piece of music less favorably than they normally would. Naturally, those same die-hard fans have heard the "standard" repertoires of their favorite composers so many times that they actually begin to like that composer's lesser-known pieces more than any of their well-known works.

The real downside of this process is that it can literally be used to "train" yourself to like a piece of music even if you otherwise wouldn't under different circumstances, and even if that piece of music is perceived by most others as not being anything special. So, if you have a personal bias toward Composer X (because of your previous experiences that composer's work, or because you just think he is "cool", or whatever), then with repeated listening you can basically teach yourself to enjoy virtually anything by that composer.

After all, it is a natural human tendency to root for your "team", so to speak. Likewise, it is also a human tendency to root against the "other team", just as many art aficionados seem to see various artists as "winners" and "losers", even though art is rarely an all-or-nothing competition.

Also, it is certainly not always the case that we automatically dislike something the very first time we hear it. Some pieces of music just immediately strike us as being "safe", for a multitude of possible reasons, even if we haven't heard those exact pieces before.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

I suppose in Brahms's case its the lieder and the less famous choral works, like _Rinaldo_ and _Nänie_. In Mozart's case, probably the chamber music.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Replying to some points of Jacob Singer

"After all, it is a natural human tendency to root for your "team", so to speak. Likewise, it is also a human tendency to root against the "other team", just as many art aficionados seem to see various artists as "winners" and "losers", even though art is rarely an all-or-nothing competition."

This whole team thing I think is detrimental to music. I've seen it on popular music forums and some people get crazy if anyone criticises their idol. Humans can have a pack-like mentality but they can also think as individuals and I trust those judgements more. It shouldn't be about persuading people something is good by words / peer pressure, but about them getting to like and understand it for themselves.

"a personal bias toward Composer X (because of your previous experiences that composer's work, or because you just think he is "cool", or whatever), then with repeated listening you can basically teach yourself to enjoy virtually anything by that composer.."

*Persuade* themselves of that maybe. It's a good thing to be able to see the good points of a composer, but pointless saying that everything is worthwhile. Of course some may well want to appreciate the earlier works of a composer more than others, and I think it is a good thing to do that often. Why not look at the earlier works of Mozart and Beethoven for example, they were talented from a young age so it's a bit snobby to just dismiss their music from before a particular point. Conversely I don't have to think a later work is a particularly brilliant just because it falls into a more acclaimed period.

"So, because the die-hard fans of a particular composer tend to delve more thoroughly into that composer's lesser known works, they become much more familiar with those works, and they naturally tend to like them a lot more than any of the non-enthusiasts do."

Obviously those who hear more music of a composer are likely to like more. Whether that means they actually love a composer more than someone else I'm not sure. I'm not really a great expert on Elgar but I really love his 1st symphony. Maybe liking a work is often as much about understanding the general musical style of a period as much as a particular composer's spin on it.

"Naturally, those same die-hard fans have heard the "standard" repertoires of their favorite composers so many times that they actually begin to like that composer's lesser-known pieces more than any of their well-known works."

Sometimes it's good to have a break from a favourite works for a while. It doesn't stop being a good work. Listening to different recordings can help too. As incredibly helpful as recordings have been to us over the last 100 years they can make us a bit lazy with music. Music is a live art and not something that has to be pinned down to one fixed view. New music has both an initial novelty interest and the excitement of discovery. I listen to new music to me well over 90% of my time.

"Simply put, our conscious mind is receiving the signal that what we are experiencing is familiar, and therefore "safe"."

That's exactly why people have to get used to a style before they judge it.

"Ever notice how people often don't like a given piece of music when they first hear it, but then after another listen or two they start to like it?"

Assuming I understand the style of the music I'm listening to I normally need to find something that at least interests me enough on first listen to listen further. Of course with classical music there is the huge wildcard of vastly different recordings of a work as well. So it can be a good idea to try a few different recordings to see if any of them are convincing. I go off music in general more than it grows on me, and that tends to be more in popular music and very quickly (but also relatively rarely for me).


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

starry said:


> Replying to some points of Jacob Singer
> 
> "After all, it is a natural human tendency to root for your "team", so to speak. Likewise, it is also a human tendency to root against the "other team", just as many art aficionados seem to see various artists as "winners" and "losers", even though art is rarely an all-or-nothing competition."
> 
> This whole team thing I think is detrimental to music. I've seen it on popular music forums and some people get crazy if anyone criticises their idol. Humans can have a pack-like mentality but they can also think as individuals and I trust those judgements more. It shouldn't be about persuading people something is good by words / peer pressure, but about them getting to like and understand it for themselves.


I agree, and the "pack mentality" is one of the most divisive phenomena with regard to music appreciation. If anything it just turns people off, and only makes it less likely that others will share their appreciation for a given genre or artist.

I definitely agree with a lot of the things you said, and for the most part feel the same way.


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