# What makes a piece a Bagatelle?



## caters

Now I know length is part of the answer. Nobody wouldn't consider a 10 minute long rondo to be a bagatelle. Bagatelles tend to be around 3-5 minutes in length. Also, from my experience(though this is biased towards Fur Elise and Bagatelle in C minor(the one at a presto tempo) because those are the 2 bagatelles that I am most familiar with), they seem to follow one of 2 forms most often. Those being:









Rondo form, usually ABACA instead of the more complicated rondos you see at the ends of sonatas such as ABACABA. This is how come, despite the short length, Rondo Alla Turka does not count as a bagatelle, its rondo form is more complicated than a simple ABACA and is much closer to Sonata form in its nature(that and it is the end of a Mozart sonata, just more often played by itself than with the whole sonata)









This is the Sonata-Rondo form that Rondo Alla Turka is in. You wouldn't expect to find this complicated of a rondo in a bagatelle.

The other form I most commonly see bagatelles in besides Rondo form is:









Ternary form, sometimes itself split into Ternary form subsections, especially in the A section.

An example of a Bagatelle in Rondo form:






The most famous bagatelle in existence

An example of a Bagatelle in Ternary form:






This one has an A section that itself is in ternary form. In that sense, it is closer to a rondo, but I'm still counting it as ternary form because of the Scherzo and Trio structure of the bagatelle as a whole.

Another thing that I notice, at least in minor key bagatelles, is that there will often be 3 sections differing by key and intensity. One of the sections will be intense and in the minor tonic. Another section that is also in the minor tonic will have a more relaxed feel to it. And then there is a section in a contrasting major key. This key is up to the composer but I usually only see a few options used, those being:


Relative major
Submediant(this is the case with Fur Elise)
Subdominant major
Dominant
Parallel major(this is the case with the C minor bagatelle)

But obviously form and length aren't the whole story, otherwise a lot of short, simple rondos would be called bagatelles. And granted there are a lot of bagatelles out there(especially Beethoven bagatelles), but the majority of short rondos aren't bagatelles, just rondos.

So besides the piece being in either Rondo or Ternary form, being short, having 2 sections in the same key and another section in a contrasting key, and having the 2 sections that share a key differ in intensity, what makes it a bagatelle? Does it have to do with being in triple meter as opposed to 4/4 or 2/4? No, because some bagatelles are in 6/8 and that isn't triple meter(well, I guess it can be either duple or triple depending on context but usually 6/8 is duple meter with a triplet feel, not triple meter with a straight eighths feel).

So, I have found a lot of similarities amongst bagatelles in their form, key, and length, time signature types differ, but I don't seem to have found what makes a piece a bagatelle. So what is it that makes a piece a bagatelle?


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## mikeh375

A bagatelle is just a trifle, a fancy, something light. It's not always about technical matters, although in the style you are interested in composing, you've done enough to understand on that level. You missed an essential point in all of your analyses - character....now...go and write something light and even frivolous, but without gravitas and to hell with the 'rules'.... break them and lighten up.


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## caters

So, wait a second? Are you saying that because I played classical music on the piano for 10 years, have always loved classical music, and have lots of music theory knowledge, that that is why I'm able to see all these similarities in the intensity contrast, key contrast, musical form, and the differences in whether it is in duple or triple meter in these bagatelles that I listen to and that I don't have to follow any of these similarities?

Are you saying that I can write a 10 minute long piece in 5/4, with less tonic emphasis and more modulations, possibly even with a few augmented chords, and in sonata-rondo form, and have that be a bagatelle as long as I have a light, even happy character to the piece(which in a major key is a piece of cake but in a minor key is a more delicate matter)?


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## mikeh375

Well admittedly I was being a bit flippant with the character in an attempt to snap you out of your rigid academic dogma. I do understand your mindset, I was there once and had to learn to let go and trust instincts that were acquired and honed by study. Mood can be anything you wish in music of course, but If you want to attempt something original then you have to let what you've learnt inform your creativity, _not_ dictate to it. If you are writing classical pastiche, then you are good to go and nothing in 5/4 please.

From your own analysis you have ascertained several differing compositional procedures which should tell you that there is flexibility within the bagatelle form (there is in every form of course, none need be set in stone) so use its simplicity as a foil and see if you can put your own spin on it, emotionally and musically. Don't ask "what did they do next?", rather ask "what happens if I did this instead?" Cultivate a sense of adventure in your mind and on the manuscript (or digital equivalent).

Your theoretical study is an essential rite of passage for high attainment in art/concert music composition and one that many pass through. I trust, nay hope, that the goal for you is to find your own voice one day, the composers below did...


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## EdwardBast

caters said:


> So, wait a second? Are you saying that because I played classical music on the piano for 10 years, have always loved classical music, and have lots of music theory knowledge, that that is why I'm able to see all these similarities in the intensity contrast, key contrast, musical form, and the differences in whether it is in duple or triple meter in these bagatelles that I listen to and that I don't have to follow any of these similarities?
> 
> *Are you saying that I can write a 10 minute long piece in 5/4, with less tonic emphasis and more modulations, possibly even with a few augmented chords, and in sonata-rondo form,* and have that be a bagatelle as long as I have a light, even happy character to the piece(which in a major key is a piece of cake but in a minor key is a more delicate matter)?


Mike is right. It has nothing to do with technical matters. Just a short, light piece. Ternary and compound ternary forms are pretty common for short solo pieces of all kinds.

Bold portion: You could do that, but it would be pointless and idiotic and everyone would wonder why you have no idea what a bagatelle is supposed to be like.

As for your other post: You might have theoretical knowledge. But you have demonstrated none of the practical skills in part writing, harmonic progression, or counterpoint necessary to compose. You need to study basic harmony and counterpoint if you hope to compose a viable bagatelle or anything else in a common practice style.


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## Vasks

caters said:


> Are you saying that I can write a 10 minute long piece in 5/4, with less tonic emphasis and more modulations.......?


Too bad there's no Youtube, but Charles Wuorinen (a serial composer) wrote a 10 minute single movement piano piece called "Bagatelle". I have a recording of it. Now, I don't think a 10 minute single movement piece should ever be called a bagatelle (no more than the TC poster a few days ago who posted their 3 minute "symphony" should be calling that a symphony) But nevertheless, no one can stop you from doing so especially as you are not living in the early 1800's. It's the 21st century where you don't have to follow the rules of long ago.


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## millionrainbows

A bagatelle is usually cheese-filled, in a light pastry.


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## millionrainbows

Vasks said:


> Too bad there's no Youtube, but Charles Wuorinen (a serial composer) wrote a 10 minute single movement piano piece called "Bagatelle". I have a recording of it. Now, I don't think a 10 minute single movement piece should ever be called a bagatelle (no more than the TC poster a few days ago who posted their 3 minute "symphony" should be calling that a symphony) But nevertheless, no one can stop you from doing so especially as you are not living in the early 1800's. It's the 21st century where you don't have to follow the rules of long ago.


Yes, I've recently got that on a Cd played by Allan Feinberg.


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## millionrainbows

EdwardBast said:


> Mike is right. It has nothing to do with technical matters. Just a short, light piece. Ternary and compound ternary forms are pretty common for short solo pieces of all kinds.
> 
> Bold portion: You could do that, but it would be pointless and idiotic and everyone would wonder why you have no idea what a bagatelle is supposed to be like.
> 
> As for your other post: You might have theoretical knowledge. But you have demonstrated none of the practical skills in part writing, harmonic progression, or counterpoint necessary to compose. You need to study basic harmony and counterpoint if you hope to compose a viable bagatelle or anything else in a common practice style.


Beethoven may have considered the Bagatelles he wrote to be teaching pieces for beginners. I started with the G minor. Delightful little trifle, I must say.


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## millionrainbows

mikeh375 said:


> Well admittedly I was being a bit flippant with the character in an attempt to snap you out of your rigid academic dogma.


I like that. I will use it in the future. :lol:


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## Vasks

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, I've recently got that on a Cd played by Allan Feinberg.
> 
> View attachment 121482


I saw you post that the other day on Current Listening. My CD is


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