# Which roles would you like/have liked to see/have seen your favourites sing?



## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

This can be singers from the past or present. It must be a role that they have never sung or, in the case of singers from the past, one which they may have sung but of which there is no recording available.

I'm not sure if this thread has been done before but I did a quick search and I couldn't find anything, so apologies if it already exists!


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

I think that I can speak for all the Callas fans here when I say, that it would have been really nice to have more video recordings of her singing. Other that act II of Tosca twice. Of course it would be nice if there more complete filmed operas with other artists from the same era. Since there are some the technology was clearly available. 

Well from Callas an early full performance of Turandot is unfortunately not recorded. So I guess that would be one. And a better studio Traviata perhaps with Di Stefano and Gobbi. There are many more also form other artists, but I'll let others tell theirs


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Sherrill Milnes as Rigoletto is the first one that comes to mind. He's my favorite recorded Rigoletto, and seeing him onstage in the part is something I wish I could have done (I'm way too young to have done so). I would also like to have seen Jennifer Larmore as Cenerentola. I have seen many of the best-known Cenerentolas via video (Bartoli, Garanca, Di Donato, Donose), but not Larmore, who's my all-time favorite mezzo.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Callas being a great Verdi singer could have made some exceptional studio recordings of the middle Verdi operas with the great bel canto leading ladies, hearing the *amazing live MacBeth from 1952 La Scala *has spoiled me since no other Lady M since can fully satisfy, a tragic lost opportunity that it was never done with EMI studio team of Stephano & Gobbi, we also need studio:

Luisa Miller 
Attila
Joan of Arc



Diminuendo said:


> And a better studio Traviata perhaps with Di Stefano and Gobbi. There are many more also form other artists, but I'll let others tell theirs


A lost opportunity because of prior contract restriction from Cetra label, so we are left with studio Cetra Traviata with inferior male cast or the many later live versions available......


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> *Callas being a great Verdi singer could have made some exceptional studio recordings of the middle Verdi operas with the great bel canto leading ladies, hearing the amazing live MacBeth from 1952 La Scala has spoiled me since no other Lady M since can fully satisfy, a tragic lost opportunity that it was never done with EMI studio team of Stephano & Gobbi, we also need studio:
> 
> Luisa Miller
> Attila
> Joan of Arc*












Absolutely.

In addition to that I'd love to have an early fifties Callas Brunnhilde from _Walkure_ and _Gotterdammerung_; a Manon; a Cassandra or Dido from _Troyens_; an Octavia from _L'incoronazione di Poppea_, a La Musica from _L'Orfeo_, a Silvana from Respighi's _La Fiamma_, a Princess Eboli from _Don Carlo_, a Lina from _Stiffelio_, an Elsa from _Lohengrin_, a. . . too many things to list. _;D_


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Having just been introduced to Krol Roger, I wish I could see/hear Piotr Beczala in the role of the Shepherd (he has done this role, but I don't know if it was recorded).

I would have liked to have heard Giorgio Zancanaro sing Figaro, Barber of Seville (but I'm not sure if he ever even sang this role).


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

After we have Callas cover the middle Verdi operas, and we have the Bellini operas already fairly well covered with studio recordings on we go to the other great bel canto composer Donizetti.......we know from the EMI studio Lucia di Lammermoor(s) and Poliuto that these dramatic bel canto leading ladies are a perfect fit for Maria's vocal talents, the live Anna Bolena only makes us crave more what could have been.....the final searing "coppia iniqua" cannot be erased from memory, a list of possible studio Donizetti

Anna Bolena (and remaining tudor queen trilogy)
Lucrezia Borgia
La Favorita
Belisario
Linda di Chamounix 
Maria di Rohan

Additionally because of her *underrated comedic skill *in the Rossini comedies like "barber" I would love to hear her in:

Elixir of Love
Don Pasquale
Daughter of the Regiment

What a sly vixen she would be in Don Pasquale.......
(the old man would be eaten alive when the tiger gets out of the cage) :devil:


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I would have loved to hear Sherrill Milnes as Pizarro in _Fidelio_, and more of the German repertoire in general. There are so many roles that Fritz Wunderlich never had the opportunity to sing because of his tragically early death.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I wish Caruso had lived on, sung for another decade or more, and taken on Wagner (he did do Lohengrin early in his career). Apparently he sang some of Tristan's music informally once and someone reported that it was very moving. Similarly, had Ponselle not retired early she could possibly have made a beautiful Isolde opposite Caruso.

Tito Schipa made only one complete opera recording, Don Pasquale, in 1932, which his presence alone makes a reference recording. He should have recorded L'elisir d'amore, any other bel canto, La Traviata, Rigoletto, Falstaff, Boheme, Manon, and Werther, at least.

Callas should have recorded Isolde and Iris in her prime, recorded Dalila, Didon, Cassandra, Charlotte, Orphee, the prioress, Amneris, Eboli and Ortrud after her top notes went, and had all her live performances filmed. The absence of the latter is the greatest artistic oversight of the 20th century. Everyone who could have done it and didn't should be given a mock execution - "_come Palmieri_."

I look forward to Tristan from Jonas Kaufmann. And I hope that if it proves too heavy he will just record it and stop singing it live to save his voice. We need tenors.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Jussi Björling singing Alfredo in _La Traviata_ in Italian. (I can't really sing along to the Swedish.)

Georges Thill in any complete opera beyond _Werther_. Des Grieux in Massenet's _Manon_ for starters.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

This one:

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/...iata-with-muzio-and-schipa-drives-tedium-away


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ABSOLUTELY!

Muzio, Schipa, Bonelli (remember him? great voice!)...

Hard to top that. Tedium begone!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I wish Caruso had lived on, sung for another decade or more, and taken on Wagner (he did do Lohengrin early in his career). Apparently he sang some of Tristan's music informally once and someone reported that it was very moving. Similarly, had Ponselle not retired early she could possibly have made a beautiful Isolde opposite Caruso.
> 
> Tito Schipa made only one complete opera recording, Don Pasquale, in 1932, which his presence alone makes a reference recording. He should have recorded L'elisir d'amore, any other bel canto, La Traviata, Rigoletto, Falstaff, Boheme, Manon, and Werther, at least.
> 
> ...


Callas would have made an _AWE-SOME_ Ortud! I can only imagine how terrifying she'd be in "_Euch luften, die mein Klagen_" from Act II of _Lohengrin._










And of course, Callas would have stopped my heart with an Act II love scene as Isolde.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Callas would have made an _AWE-SOME_ Ortud! I can only imagine how terrifying she'd be in "_Euch luften, die mein Klagen_" from Act II of _Lohengrin._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Barbie, surprisingly, is clearly cut out to sing Wagner too. Creative casting!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> *Barbie, surprisingly, is clearly cut out to sing Wagner too. Creative casting!*


Helga Dernesch, eat your heart out.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

There are so many roles I wish Callas had sung. Caballe once said that it was Callas who opened the doors to a whole repertoire that had been hidden for many years, and indeed Caballe got to sing many of the roles Callas would have sung brilliantly, among them Lucrezia Borgia, Gemma di Vergy and Maria Stuada. Also Rossini's Elisabetta Regina d'Inghilterra and Semiramide.

One doesn't normally associate Callas with comedy, but I find Dark Angel's suggestion of Norina in *Don Pasquale* intriguing. What a minx-like Norina she might hace been.

As for Verdi, there are so many of the earlier operas she would have sung brilliantly. One thinks of Odabella in *Attila*, Griselda in *I Lombardi*, *Giovanna d'Arco*, *Luisa Miller* and Lina in *Stiffelio*.

And there is the small matter of French opera. The only complete role she sang (in the studio) was Carmen, but, going from the French arias, what a magnificent Berlioz singer she could have been, We know this from her wonderful rendition of Margeurite's _D'amour l'ardente flamme_. I yearn for her Didon and Cassandre, and, while we're at it, why not a recording of _Les nuits d'Ete_ and _La mort de Cleopatre_? According to Legge, Dalila's music lay too low for her to have attempted the role in the theatre, but a studio recording would have been more than welcome. So too some Massenet - Charlotte, Chimene, Manon and Thais all spring to mind.

I should stop now. This post has become altogether too depressing.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

There are too many roles, from too many singers of the past, to mention.

In contemporary times, I would have loved listening to Renée Fleming singing Marie/Marietta a few years ago.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Schwarzkopf is another favourite soprano of mine. What a shame she only recorded excerpts from *Arabella*. Strauss suited her so well, so maybe Daphne and Helena (in *Die Aegyptishce Helene* as well.

Her recordings of arias for Elsa, Elisabeth and Agathe make me regret she never vouchsafed us the complete roles.

There is a superb radio broadcast of her singing _Marietta's Lied_ from *Die tote Stadt*, which makes me wish she had sung the complete role. A mite too large for her maybe, but Schwarzkopf was a genius at projecting without forcing. She might well have managed it.

I always think it a great shame she never recorded Pamina, Ilia too.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Schwarzkopf is another favourite soprano of mine. What a shame she only recorded excerpts from *Arabella*. Strauss suited her so well, so maybe Daphne and Helena (in *Die Aegyptishce Helene* as well.
> 
> Her recordings of arias for Elsa, Elisabeth and Agathe make me regret she never vouchsafed us the complete roles.
> 
> ...












I'm in deeply moved agreement of course.

When I heard first heard Elisabeth Schwarzkopf's Arabella it was love at first sight, or rather 'listening.' I was accustomed to Lisa Della Casa and Kiri Te Kanawa's various performances- all of which I love- but Schwarzkopf's nuanced portrayal was just ravishingly beautiful beyond belief for me. Schwarzkopf was made for Strauss and Mozart.

I imagine if I heard her do the beginning of Act II of _Die Aegyptische Helena _I'd just faint. That role was meant for her- looks aside that is. _;D _


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Salome for Anna Netrebko -- if not Strauss', then Massenet's.

Not an opera, but I think Renee Fleming would have made a lovely Anna in THE KING AND I.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

*Maria Callas:* Amneris, Azucena, perhaps Klytemnestra
*Joan Sutherland:* Brunhilde, Odabella
*Alexandrina Pendatchanska:* Norma (I'm normally not fond of her in bel canto rep, but Norma is pretty much its own genre to anyway. much more raw, gritty, almost as if George RR Martin had composed an opera)
*Birgit Nilsson:* Queen of the Night, Abigaile, Elisabetta 
*Jonas Kaufmann:* Don Giovanni (seriously, it doesn't go that low, and he has a sexy lower register, so why not?)
*Sherrill Milnes:* some sort of lower dramatic tenor role (he throws high Bbs around more easily than most dramatic tenors, so I could imagine him sounding respectable dipping into the heldentenor rep)


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## Cesare Impalatore (Apr 16, 2015)

I would have liked to see Miguel Fleta as Calaf. It's saddens me that there is no Turandot recording with him, not even the famous arias _Non piangere Liù_ and _Nessun dorma_ as singles in a compilation CD, despite Fleta being the first Calaf in history.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

*BalalaikaBoy wrote:*
_Sherrill Milnes: some sort of lower dramatic tenor role (he throws high Bbs around more easily than most dramatic tenors, so I could imagine him sounding respectable dipping into the heldentenor rep) _

How about Florestan?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> *Maria Callas:* Amneris, Azucena, perhaps Klytemnestra
> *Joan Sutherland:* Brunhilde, Odabella
> *Alexandrina Pendatchanska:* Norma (I'm normally not fond of her in bel canto rep, but Norma is pretty much its own genre to anyway. much more raw, gritty, almost as if George RR Martin had composed an opera)
> *Birgit Nilsson:* Queen of the Night, Abigaile, Elisabetta
> ...


Yikes! Frankly, Balalaika, I'm glad most of these people ignored your advice. 

Nilsson had no coloratura technique. She did sing Lady Macbeth, Rezia, and Donna Anna, and the quick passages are just approximated. Kaufmann and Milnes trading places? Why? What would they bring to their out-of-fach roles, vocally? Kaufmann is not a baritone, just a dark-timbred tenor; after Pinza and Siepi, why Kaufmann? Lots of baritones can reach Bb, and Milnes had a great G and A, but the five notes below that, where a Wagner tenor spends most of his time, lost their metal and ping in Milnes' voice, developing what John Steane called a "yawning" quality. I always wondered what happened there after his early years. Sutherland had the power up top but not the midrange quality for Wagner's dramatic parts. Callas as Azucena and Klytemnaestra? Just determined to turn her into a contralto, aren't you?

Even _I_ don't believe we're _that_ hard up for people suited to these roles.


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Vickers doing Tannhauser and Lohengrin.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Rangstrom said:


> Vickers doing Tannhauser and Lohengrin.


Vickers refused to do Tannhäuser because he considered the role to be blasphemous and I think this is so admirable that I want it to stay that.


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## undifelice (Mar 11, 2015)

Any Otello performed by Domingo and Milnes


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Vickers refused to do Tannhäuser because he considered the role to be blasphemous and I think this is so admirable that I want it to stay that.


Odd fellow, Vickers. Some strange religious inhibitions. Glad he sang Parsifal, at least; maybe lifting the Holy Grail at the end played into his unfulfilled aspirations to the priesthood.

He'd have been a great Lohengrin. Or are swans too phallic or whatever?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

undifelice said:


> Any Otello performed by Domingo and Milnes


That is done on RCA


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Pugg said:


> That is done on RCA
> View attachment 70225


Youtube also has/had a Met telecast they did around the same time as the recording. I haven't checked lately to see if the video is still there.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> Jussi Björling singing Alfredo in _La Traviata_ in Italian. (I can't really sing along to the Swedish.)
> 
> Georges Thill in any complete opera beyond _Werther_. Des Grieux in Massenet's _Manon_ for starters.


Thill did record Charpentier's Louise in 1935. I don't know whether it's quite complete (it's only one CD)- perhaps it isn't and that's why you didn't mention it. I have the Nimbus CD but haven't listened to it for ages. I imagine the Naxos sounds better.










Also this film, albeit with cuts and added spoken dialogue:










I haven't seen it yet, but it looks good.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Thill did record Charpentier's Louise in 1935. I don't know whether it's quite complete (it's only one CD)- perhaps it isn't and that's why you didn't mention it. I have the Nimbus CD but haven't listened to it for ages. I imagine the Naxos sounds better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will need to look into those. I have also just discovered this 1928 recording of _Carmen_ with Raymonde Visconti in the title role that I may need to get...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Balthazar said:


> I will need to look into those. I have also just discovered this 1928 recording of _Carmen_ with Raymonde Visconti in the title role that I may need to get...


I have the Thill/Vallin *Louise*, and it is, as you might expect, quite heavily cut. I think you'd call it extended highlights. Worth hearing, none the less. Thill is thrilling and Vallin's sound is just right, if a little cool.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> I will need to look into those. I have also just discovered this 1928 recording of _Carmen_ with Raymonde Visconti in the title role that I may need to get...


I forgot to mention that Carmen, even though I just bought it myself!  It would be interesting to compare notes when we've both heard it.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I forgot to mention that Carmen, even though I just bought it myself!  It would be interesting to compare notes when we've both heard it.


It's a date! (Don't tell Wood...)


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> It's a date! (Don't tell Wood...)


Actually, speaking of gorgeous guys, the next Carmen I would like to get would be the 1947 recording with the Don José of José Luccioni. Some interesting tenor comparisons should be possible!

http://www.norpete.com/op1634.html


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Oh wow, I just realized I didn't understand the gist of this thread! With regard to non-current singers, I thought it was asking about roles which you're sorry you never saw them sing. Regarding my first post above, Milnes and Larmore both sang Rigoletto and Cenerentola, respectively. I just never was fortunate enough to see them in those parts though I do have their studio recordings.


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## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Oh wow, I just realized I didn't understand the gist of this thread! With regard to non-current singers, I thought it was asking about roles which you're sorry you never saw them sing. Regarding my first post above, Milnes and Larmore both sang Rigoletto and Cenerentola, respectively. I just never was fortunate enough to see them in those parts though I do have their studio recordings.


It's not your fault. It was only after I read your reply that I realised how badly worded the title was lol. What I really meant to write was "Which roles would you have liked your favourites to have sung?". But I think most people understood it anyway.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

*I would have Callas retain her fat voice for a few years, and record *
Semiramide
Turandot
Odabella
Lady Macbeth
Abigaille
A later Traviata
Chimène (Le Cid)
Handel's Dejanira (Hercules)
and Ariodante
Rezia (Weber's Oberon)
Norma with a soprano Adalgisa
Fidelio 
Maria Padilla
Esclarmonde
*I would also fire Walter Legge and have Culshaw be her producer!*
Sorry if I repeated some of the others' wishes...


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Surprised to see Corelli as Otello missing


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Balthazar said:


> Jussi Björling singing Alfredo in _La Traviata_ in Italian. (I can't really sing along to the Swedish.)
> 
> Georges Thill in any complete opera beyond _Werther_. Des Grieux in Massenet's _Manon_ for starters.


I've always wondered when listening to Bjorling's Calaf whether he would have been able to do a Lohengrin or von Stolzing recording if he lived longer. In an opera house would have been a different matter of course.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Surprised to see Corelli as Otello missing


Otello lies really low for most tenors, plus would you be ready to forgo his incandescent high notes?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

MAS said:


> Otello lies really low for most tenors, plus would you be ready to forgo his incandescent high notes?


It was written for one of the highest of tenors, and if you listen to the recently discovered 'Si, pel ciel', Tamagno replaces some of the low notes with high ones. I think this practice is called _puntatura_ and I have no idea whether it was still musically acceptable in Corelli's day. However- Corelli was a somewhat baritonal tenor and transposed down very high pieces such as 'Di quella pira', so I don't imagine the tessitura would have been a problem for him? Others more familiar with his singing than I am will no doubt have a more informed perspective on this.

Edit: I just found this passage concerning Tamagno's _puntature_ in 'Franco Corelli and a Revolution in Singing' by Stefan Zucker. Stefan writes:

_Francesco twice transposes an octave higher the music set to the word 'sterminator!' which begins on a low E and goes down chromatically to a low C-sharp, but has an easy time with the duet's three high B-flats. He makes an anticipation to the final A natural, as has since become traditional _.

I hope this describes Tamagno's changes to 'Si, pel ciel' better than I have. At any rate, Tamagno and subsequent Otellos can show off their high notes in the famous 'Esultate'.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Figleaf said:


> However- Corelli was a somewhat baritonal tenor and transposed down very high pieces such as 'Di quella pira', so I don't imagine the tessitura would have been a problem for him? Others more familiar with his singing than I am will no doubt have a more informed perspective on this.


I think that Corelli was very far from a baritonal tenor. I think he sang Di quella pira in the original key in studio. Even in 1971 after a career of 20 years he could still do high C. Pretty good for a dramatic/spinto tenor. My knowledge on tessitura and other things is very limited, so perhaps someone with more knowledge might be more useful. I have know idea if Otello would have been that way suitable for him. But if he had wanted to sing it, of course it would have been transposed to suit his voice. I just had to write to say, that Corelli is very far from a baritonal tenor, since he had pretty easy high notes.

The rest is best left to someone with more knowledge on technical matters


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

I'd like to see/hear Joyce DiDonato take on the fiendishly difficult coloratura of Titania in Dream. I realise it's a soprano role and she's a mezzo but still.


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## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

I would love Joyce DiDonato to sing Adalgisa in a staged production. I know she sang it in a concert performance some years ago with Gruberová as Norma and there are some audio clips available on YouTube. I have read that she is rumoured to sing it at the Met in a few seasons. I really hope it's true.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DonAlfonso said:


> I'd like to see/hear Joyce DiDonato take on the fiendishly difficult coloratura of Titania in Dream. I realise it's a soprano role and she's a mezzo but still.


I don't think it would suit her at all, and I'd be very surprised if she'd even consider it. For all the strength of her top register, it wouldn't lie comfortably for her. There are roles that mezzos and sopranos can sing with equal success, but Titania is definitely not one of them.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Camillorf said:


> I would love Joyce DiDonato to sing Adalgisa in a staged production. I know she sang it in a concert performance some years ago with Gruberová as Norma and there are some audio clips available on YouTube. I have read that she is rumoured to sing it at the Met in a few seasons. I really hope it's true.


^this. Adelgisa is supposed to be a young girl. it always sounds weird to me when Norma (who is maybe a decade older) is voiced by a high, flexible soprano while Adelgisa is sung by a deep, dark dramatic mezzo who sounds like Norma's evil aunt.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Diminuendo said:


> I think that Corelli was very far from a baritonal tenor. I think he sang Di quella pira in the original key in studio. Even in 1971 after a career of 20 years he could still do high C. Pretty good for a dramatic/spinto tenor. My knowledge on tessitura and other things is very limited, so perhaps someone with more knowledge might be more useful. I have know idea if Otello would have been that way suitable for him. But if he had wanted to sing it, of course it would have been transposed to suit his voice. I just had to write to say, that Corelli is very far from a baritonal tenor, since he had pretty easy high notes.
> 
> The rest is best left to someone with more knowledge on technical matters


I see no reason Corelli could not have sung Otello successfully. He had the range, the brilliance, and the power. Any question should be laid to rest by listening to him match voices with Birgit Nilsson in _Turandot_. The hair-raising decibel level and spine-tingling squillo they achieved on their nights together (in the opera house, I mean) are best heard on several live recordings. They leave one open-mouthed and limp. Corelli's choice not to take on the part wouldn't have been because of vocal inadequacy.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> ^this. Adelgisa is supposed to be a young girl. it always sounds weird to me when Norma (who is maybe a decade older) is voiced by a high, flexible soprano while Adelgisa is sung by a deep, dark dramatic mezzo who sounds like Norma's evil aunt.


Well it does rather depend on the mezzo. Baltsa was a fantastic Adalgisa (to Sylvia Sass's wholly inadequate Norma) at Covent Garden, and Ludwig sounds like the younger woman, which she was, on the second Callas recording. Simionato had an easy top register and she and Callas often sang the duets in the original keys. According to Simionato, it used to bug Callas that critics never seemed to notice.

DiDonato with her light, high mezzo, would probably be very good in the role of Adalgisa. It might have suited Von Stade too (no hint of evil or age in her lovely voice).

That said, the role of Adalgisa was sung by Giulia Grisi in the original production. She was considered a dramatic soprano and went on to sing Norma, though not, apparently, with much success. Interestingly she was the first Elvira in *I Puritani* and Donizetti wrote the role of Norina for her.

Apparently Walter Legge once had the idea of casting Callas and Tebaldi in the roles of Norma and Adalgisa, and getting them to alternate the two roles. Callas quite liked the idea, but Tebaldi, of course, refused. She knew her technique wasn't up to either role.


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## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Well it does rather depend on the mezzo. Baltsa was a fantastic Adalgisa (to Sylvia Sass's wholly inadequate Norma) at Covent Garden, and Ludwig sounds like the younger woman, which she was, on the second Callas recording. Simionato had an easy top register and she and Callas often sang the duets in the original keys. According to Simionato, it used to bug Callas that critics never seemed to notice.
> 
> DiDonato with her light, high mezzo, would probably be very good in the role of Adalgisa. *It might have suited Von Stade too (no hint of evil or age in her lovely voice).*
> 
> ...


I thought this too! I googled it and apparently she has sung the role at the Met but unfortunately I think there is no recording of it.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

For Adalgisa, my clear preference is the "HIP" approach.

We are talking here about the 'seconda donna' in an opera with a protaginist soprano (the 'prima donna') and tenor. The differences in range between the two female leads are usually minimal in this kind of operas (usually the 'prima donna' descends to a semitone or a full tone lower, while the top note is the same pitch, or just a semitone higher). The true characterization was rather in the singing style; more coloratura and 'fioriture' for the 'prima donna', that got the higher notes in the ensembles, while her tessitura is somewhat higher, too.

With the (later) decision to use mezzos (and even dramatic mezzos!) to portrait this 'seconda donna' we are far indeed from the original intention, in my view, and while in the 19th century Giuditta Pasta sang Tancredi *and* Norma, in the 20th, it was Marilyn Horne singing Tancredi and Adalgisa.

So, I do prefer a soprano for Adalgisa (though Horne, for instance, and also other mezzos, were great Adalgisas, indeed).

A fantastic idea was casting Sutherland as Norma, and Caballé as Adalgisa. Regrettably, both were out of their prime by the time this recording was made.






When recently, back in 2013, the great Italian soprano Mariella Devia decided to sing Norma for the first time (yes, she was also out of her prime, though still in good form, and her voice is not the right one for Norma, anyway), there was a discussion with the conductor, the young and gifted, Michele Mariotti, and the management at the Bologna opera house, and they decided to go with a lyrical soprano for the role of Adalgisa, the Italian singer Carmela Remigio. You can watch the result here:






However, when the Biondi brothers published, and staged, their HIP version of _Norma_, they were using a mezzo for Adalgisa, none other than Daniela Barcellona (again, a good performer of Tancredi), and they repeated later the approach with the mezzo Lucia Cirillo.

In the end is a matter of taste, and musicological convictions, on paper. And of who is available and you can hire, in the real world, of course.

My last Adalgisa on stage was Ekaterina Gubanova, a few months ago, at Barcelona's Liceu (with Radvanovsky and Kunde)


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I sometimes think Sutherland would have made a good Adalgisa to Callas's Norma, though I'm not sure their voices would have blended. Mind you I wouldn't have expected Ludwig and Callas to be a good match, but they blend beautifully on the second Callas recording.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Well, certainly Sutherland was a good Clotilde to Callas's Norma. 

Like you, I'm not really sure that these two voices would have blended well. Very interesting experiment, though, of course.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Well it does rather depend on the mezzo.


precisely



> Baltsa was a fantastic Adalgisa (to Sylvia Sass's wholly inadequate Norma) at Covent Garden, and Ludwig sounds like the younger woman, which she was, on the second Callas recording. Simionato had an easy top register and she and Callas often sang the duets in the original keys. According to Simionato, it used to bug Callas that critics never seemed to notice.


on an unrelated note, I find Simionato a bit distracting because she had so much personality (temperamentally speaking, she was much more like Norma than Adelgisa, and it shows in her singing  ). not that I mind much. charisma and vocal elegance trump interpretation as far as I'm concerned



> DiDonato with her light, high mezzo, would probably be very good in the role of Adalgisa. It might have suited Von Stade too (no hint of evil or age in her lovely voice).


indeed, good call. 
perhaps a more exotic suggestion, but I think Anna Moffo would have made a wonderful Adelgisa with her warm, sensual, chocolate mousse middle register.



> That said, the role of Adalgisa was sung by Giulia Grisi in the original production. She was considered a dramatic soprano and went on to sing Norma, though not, apparently, with much success. Interestingly she was the first Elvira in *I Puritani* and Donizetti wrote the role of Norina for her.


wait....the first Elvira was a _dramatic_ soprano? 



> Apparently Walter Legge once had the idea of casting Callas and Tebaldi in the roles of Norma and Adalgisa, and getting them to alternate the two roles. Callas quite liked the idea, but Tebaldi, of course, refused. She knew her technique wasn't up to either role.


I'm glad she was smart enough to realize this


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I sometimes think Sutherland would have made a good Adalgisa to Callas's Norma, though I'm not sure their voices would have blended. Mind you I wouldn't have expected Ludwig and Callas to be a good match, but they blend beautifully on the second Callas recording.


Sutherland lacked the lower range to be a good Adelgisa.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> wait....the first Elvira was a _dramatic_ soprano?


Well of course no soprano called herself a coloratura soprano back then, nor was there the delineation between soprano and mezzo that we have now, but that's a different matter. They were all coloratura sopranos. Whether they were singing Mozart or Handel, Rossini or Bellini, they couldn't do so without a sound coloratura technique.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Sutherland lacked the lower range to be a good Adelgisa.


She also lacked the lower range to make her a good Norma. Didn't stop her singing it though. In fact Pasta, who sang the first Norma was probably more mezzo-ish than Grisi, who sang the first Adalgisa. We can of course only go from contemporary reports, as they were singing before the dawn of the recording age.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> She also lacked the lower range to make her a good Norma. Didn't stop her singing it though. In fact Pasta, who sang the first Norma was probably more mezzo-ish than Grisi, who sang the first Adalgisa. We can of course only go from contemporary reports, as they were singing before the dawn of the recording age.


I'm aware, hence why I thought you would agree with me. if you were to cut the score of Norma down the middle, Sutherland handled the top half wonderfully (her Casta Diva and Ah Belo are far superior to anyone, including Callas), but the lower half.....disappointing.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I'm aware, hence why I thought you would agree with me. if you were to cut the score of Norma down the middle, Sutherland handled the top half wonderfully (her Casta Diva and Ah Belo are far superior to anyone, including Callas), but the lower half.....disappointing.


I'm not sure I'd agree. If you think what Norma is actually singing about in _Ah bello a me_ then it is Callas who responds to the meaning. There is a yearning, wistful quality to her tone, lacking in Sutherland's, though of course she sings the notes splendidly.

I rather feel the same about her _Casta Diva_, though I accept this is somewhat of a value judgement. Her tone is altogether too light and silvery for me. it just doesn't sound like a Norma voice, and you can't divorce the aria and cabaletta from the rest of the role. I've always loved Callas's way with it, especially in her earlier years (the Cetra studio recording, made in 1949, is really wonderful) but I also like Ponselle and Caballe here. Caballe is especially fine in Orange and on her first recital disc for RCA. All three ladies have a grandeur and commanding presence I don't really hear in Sutherland's recordings.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm not sure I'd agree. If you think what Norma is actually singing about in _Ah bello a me_ then it is Callas who responds to the meaning. There is a yearning, wistful quality to her tone, lacking in Sutherland's, though of course she sings the notes splendidly.
> 
> I rather feel the same about her _Casta Diva_, though I accept this is somewhat of a value judgement. Her tone is altogether too light and silvery for me.* it just doesn't sound like a Norma voice, and you can't divorce the aria and cabaletta from the rest of the role. *I've always loved Callas's way with it, especially in her earlier years (the Cetra studio recording, made in 1949, is really wonderful) but I also like Ponselle and Caballe here. Caballe is especially fine in Orange and on her first recital disc for RCA. All three ladies have a grandeur and commanding presence I don't really hear in Sutherland's recordings.


if you are singing the opera: no
if you are using it as a concern peace: the opera itself becomes a lot less relevant (much like how folk songs are typically not sung with a whole of interpretation as to the origin of the piece).

as for Sutherland coming off less commanding, I think her mighty, queenly dramatic coloratura is much more commanding and formidable than either Ponselle or Caballe. that said, I'm sure we can agree that Casta Diva (excluding the caballetta) could hardly be considered a "commanding" aria. in fact, it's one of the most delicate arias I can think of (one might even say pacifistic, given she is praying to the moon goddess for the sake of avoiding war).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> if you are singing the opera: no
> if you are using it as a concern peace: the opera itself becomes a lot less relevant (much like how folk songs are typically not sung with a whole of interpretation as to the origin of the piece).
> 
> as for Sutherland coming off less commanding, I think her mighty, queenly dramatic coloratura is much more commanding and formidable than either Ponselle or Caballe. that said, I'm sure we can agree that Casta Diva (excluding the caballetta) could hardly be considered a "commanding" aria. in fact, it's one of the most delicate arias I can think of (one might even say pacifistic, given she is praying to the moon goddess for the sake of avoiding war).


As I said it's a value judgement, and I just prefer the _sound_ of Callas, Caballe and Ponselle in the piece, for all that Sutherland's singing is technically polished and her voice very beautiful.

I might also add that _Casta Diva_ is not a concert piece, but then I've never seen arias as concert pieces. I'm much more interested in how a singer tackles the whole role, rather than just isolated sections. The aria is not a commanding piece, as you say, but the character is, as she demonstrates in the preceding recitative.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> As I said it's a value judgement, and I just prefer the _sound_ of Callas, Caballe and Ponselle in the piece, for all that Sutherland's singing is technically polished and her voice very beautiful.
> 
> I might also add that _Casta Diva_ is not a concert piece, but then I've never seen arias as concert pieces. I'm much more interested in how a singer tackles the whole role, rather than just isolated sections. The aria is not a commanding piece, as you say, but the character is, as she demonstrates in the preceding recitative.


But Callas acts during concerts, even when only the orchestra plays. So that helps. I just hate singers who just stand and sing. With Callas you get so much more even just in concerts. I do like other singers in concerts, but Callas just gives so much more.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

In fact, it's in the recitative "Sediziose voci" where Callas excels the most in the "Casta Diva" scena, in my view. This has to be delivered in "commanding" mood, indeed. A heroic declamation piece that never goes too high but it needs some cavernous low notes for a soprano, especially when foretelling the doom of Rome: 'qual consunta morrà', and a bit later, and a little bit less spectacular, 'compia il gran decreto'. Then 'pace v'intimo, e il sacro vischio io mieto' and the start of the cavatina, a totally different thing and a totally different mood, blend together in a wonderful contrast with the recitative.

Who can sing this the way Callas did?. The effect is just mesmerizing. 

I also admire what we have from the recitative of Ponselle, as well as Cerquetti's strong delivery. But ultimately, when I listen this recitative (and I do often ) to any singer other than Callas, I feel I'm missing something.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

schigolch said:


> In fact, it's in the recitative "Sediziose voci" where Callas excels the most in the "Casta Diva" scena, in my view. This has to be delivered in "commanding" mood, indeed. A heroic declamation piece that never goes too high but it needs some cavernous low notes for a soprano, especially when foretelling the doom of Rome: 'qual consunta morrà', and a bit later, and a little bit less spectacular, 'compia il gran decreto'. Then 'pace v'intimo, e il sacro vischio io mieto' and the start of the cavatina, a totally different thing and a totally different mood, blend together in a wonderful contrast with the recitative.
> 
> Who can sing this the way Callas did?. The effect is just mesmerizing.
> 
> I also admire what we have from the recitative of Ponselle, as well as Cerquetti's strong delivery. But ultimately, when I listen this recitative (and I do often ) to any singer other than Callas, I feel I'm missing something.


I found Sutherland's Sediziose voci quite powerful. she sounds like the Statue of Liberty in soprano form


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I found Sutherland's Sediziose voci quite powerful. she sounds like the Statue of Liberty in soprano form


Oh come on. Compared to Callas and Caballe, not to mention what we have of Ponselle, she's positively insipid. She tries, but she just doesn't have those necessary tones. I'm talking Caballe in the Orange performance by the way, not her complete studio recording, which never really comes to life.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> As I said it's a value judgement, and I just prefer the _sound_ of Callas, Caballe and Ponselle in the piece, for all that Sutherland's singing is technically polished and her voice very beautiful.


you know, I think much of the reason why people enjoy Callas is that she blatantly ignores the conventional advice of "making it look easy". opera is, by most measures a very idealized art form, with less than believable plots and character for whom irrational decisions are the norm (I realize this was less of a case before the 20th century, but still). if opera singers were movie directors, Callas would be Quentin Tarantino. all blood, guts, sweat, and unafraid to show you the unsightly underbelly of whatever character/fictional universe she was portraying. in her mind, when she is in character, she is like "I am a crazy bitch who was betrayed by her lover, has contemplated killing her children and is planning her own execution. of course this isn't "easy"! If you want "easy" go watch a Disney movie...."

Sutherland was precisely the opposite. she could be portraying a drug addicted street prostitute with multiple STDs and you would think she was some glorious Victorian duchess. in fact, to my ears, her singing comes off kind of arrogant and elitist (which is ironic given she started as a secretary and has one of the most down to earth, almost bashful personalities of any celebrity I can think of). not that I hold this against her, I actually enjoy it and feel like it adds to her charisma



> I might also add that _Casta Diva_ is not a concert piece, but then I've never seen arias as concert pieces. I'm much more interested in how a singer tackles the whole role, rather than just isolated sections. The aria is not a commanding piece, as you say, but the character is, as she demonstrates in the preceding recitative.


we clearly have different definitions of what exactly a "concert piece" is, but meh, that's semantics.

PS: come to think of it, Callas is often described as "the real life Carmen", but in my opinion, she is more like the real life _Norma_ (though her Pollione was a fishing magnate rather than a military commander lol). modern day Carmen would be much more like Kim Kardashian. there is no doubt that Callas was every bit as diva as even the most charismatic Carmen, but unlike Carmen (who seems used to being worshiped and having men grovel at her feet every time she lifts a toe), Callas was _long suffering_, coming from a childhood with a neglectful mother and suffering crippling periods of depression and heartbreak. while the few firsthand accounts I've come across describe her as far kinder and more supportive than the megalomaniacal mess the media portrayed her as, there was a *vengeance* and *fire* to Callas far more similar to Norma than Carmen.

Edit:



> Oh come on. Compared to Callas and Caballe, not to mention what we have of Ponselle, she's positively insipid. She tries, but she just doesn't have those necessary tones. I'm talking Caballe in the Orange performance by the way, not her complete studio recording, which never really comes to life.


Sutherland had a much larger, weightier instrument than any of the aforementioned singers (especially Caballe). her Sediziose Voci is more "formidable" rather than "fiery" and relies more no vocal weight and authority rather than aggression and spirit to achieve the desired effect (which does it for me just fine).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> you know, I think much of the reason why people enjoy Callas is that she blatantly ignores the conventional advice of "making it look easy". opera is, by most measures a very idealized art form, with less than believable plots and character for whom irrational decisions are the norm (I realize this was less of a case before the 20th century, but still). if opera singers were movie directors, Callas would be Quentin Tarantino. all blood, guts, sweat, and unafraid to show you the unsightly underbelly of whatever character/fictional universe she was portraying. in her mind, when she is in character, she is like "I am a crazy bitch who was betrayed by her lover, has contemplated killing her children and is planning her own execution. of course this isn't "easy"! If you want "easy" go watch a Disney movie...."
> 
> Sutherland was precisely the opposite. she could be portraying a drug addicted street prostitute with multiple STDs and you would think she was some glorious Victorian duchess. in fact, to my ears, her singing comes off kind of arrogant and elitist (which is ironic given she started as a secretary and has one of the most down to earth, almost bashful personalities of any celebrity I can think of). not that I hold this against her, I actually enjoy it and feel like it adds to her charisma
> 
> ...


The Quentin Tarrantino of opera? That's the funniest thing I've heard in ages - and couldn't be further from the truth. You clearly don't know Callas's work very well. In the late 1940s and early 1950s she made everything look very simple indeed. Sutherland herself said, when she sang Clotilde to Callas's Norma, that she made it look so simple, that the voice just poured out of her. I believe the word she used was colossal.

Even later in her career, she makes incredible effects with less voice, because of her sheer artistry, To suggest that she exaggerated everything would be completely wrong. Her effects are always achieved musically and within the bounds of the music. I was listening to Tebaldi singing Margherita's _L'altra notte_ the other day, and it is she who makes exaggerated gestures where Callas is absolutely haunting in the Muzio manner.

But yes, Callas believed, as I do, that opera should be music drama, not just concert in costume.

By the way I'm prepared to admit that Sutherland's voice sounded larger in the theatre than it did on record, as I've been told as much many times (John Steane talks of its amplitude), but no way will I believe that it was weightier or larger than Ponselle's magnificent instrument, which, according to Walter Legge, and many others who heard her, was absolutely enormous. Nor do I believe it was ever as large and weighty as Callas's in 1952, when Sutherland herself referred to it as colossal.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> By the way I'm prepared to admit that Sutherland's voice sounded larger in the theatre than it did on record, as I've been told as much many times (John Steane talks of its amplitude), but no way will I believe that it was weightier or larger than Ponselle's magnificent instrument, which, according to Walter Legge, and many others who heard her, was absolutely enormous. Nor do I believe it was ever as large and weighty as Callas's in 1952, when Sutherland herself referred to it as colossal.


The only "modern" recordings I think we have of Ponselle are those made in her home in the 1950s when the singer was, I believe, 57. They are not of opera arias and don't reveal the power of which she was capable, but the sense of power in reserve is unmistakable, as is the depth, richness, and purity of tone. Some of her live radio recordings give a good idea of the voice's sheer amplitude, and I have one of these, of "Ritorna vincitor," which just knocks my socks off. She would blow every contemporary Verdi soprano off the stage. Sutherland, Callas, Caballe - none of them produced a dark, solid, even, powerful column of sound like that. And when you add to it a superb coloratura facility, musicality, and temperament (more evident in her live performances, I think), you can understand Callas's veneration of her and Serafin's calling her a "vocal miracle."

If Ponselle were around now I would want to hear her in absolutely everything, suitable or not!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Yikes! Frankly, Balalaika, I'm glad most of these people ignored your advice.
> 
> Nilsson had no coloratura technique. She did sing Lady Macbeth, Rezia, and Donna Anna, and the quick passages are just approximated. Kaufmann and Milnes trading places? Why? What would they bring to their out-of-fach roles, vocally? Kaufmann is not a baritone, just a dark-timbred tenor; after Pinza and Siepi, why Kaufmann? Lots of baritones can reach Bb, and Milnes had a great G and A, but the five notes below that, where a Wagner tenor spends most of his time, lost their metal and ping in Milnes' voice, developing what John Steane called a "yawning" quality. I always wondered what happened there after his early years. Sutherland had the power up top but not the midrange quality for Wagner's dramatic parts. Callas as Azucena and Klytemnaestra? Just determined to turn her into a contralto, aren't you?
> 
> Even _I_ don't believe we're _that_ hard up for people suited to these roles.


Nilsson recorded the Queen of the Night aria AFTER a long night of singing Wagner. I would have loved to hear her F's.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I would love a complete Ponselle Norma recording from her prime. Most of the naysayers about Sutherland being comanding are ignoring the shear size of her instrument. It was as big as Maria's except for at the bottom. Sutherland's was more vast and Callas's was more penetrating. I would LOVE a video document of Sutherland in Zeffirelli's Venice Alcina. I would love to hear Sutherland singing Zweite Brautnacht from The Egyptian Helen by Strauss. Most don't have the umph I'd like to hear of the Db at the end of this exciting piece. I would have liked to have heard Jessye Norman as Erda. She would have rivaled Ewa Podles. I would kill for a really good recording of Callas' Armida in 52. Callas in Gotterdammerung would be divine.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I would love a complete Ponselle Norma recording from her prime. Most of the naysayers about Sutherland being comanding are ignoring the shear size of her instrument. It was as big as Maria's except for at the bottom. Sutherland's was more vast and Callas's was more penetrating. I would LOVE a video document of Sutherland in Zeffirelli's Venice Alcina. I would love to hear Sutherland singing Zweite Brautnacht from The Egyptian Helen by Strauss. Most don't have the umph I'd like to hear of the Db at the end of this exciting piece. I would have liked to have heard Jessye Norman as Erda. She would have rivaled Ewa Podles. I would kill for a really good recording of Callas' Armida in 52. Callas in Gotterdammerung would be divine.


yes! (I have always seen Jessye Norman as more of a dramatic mezzo to begin with)

@OP Joan Sutherland in Handel's Rinaldo or Armida (I believe she performed both live, would have loved a recording)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> yes! (I have always seen Jessye Norman as more of a dramatic mezzo to begin with)
> 
> @OP Joan Sutherland in Handel's Rinaldo or Armida (I believe she performed both live, would have loved a recording)


Norman had an odd tendency to sing flat up top. I say "odd" because she didn't actually seem to be straining to reach the notes. If you listen to her early work she comes across as a lovely, strong lyric soprano, with no flatting; she got more mezzo-like as she aged. I agree that in her mature years she was essentially a mezzo - a sumptuous one, with a contralto-like coloration - and of course she did sing music written for that range. She might have made more of it. Is she still singing, by the way?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Jessye's back is giving her problems and at 70 her voice is a shadow of it's former glory. She sings Ellington and Gershwin and stuff like that....I would skip it based on Youtube. I think by the time of her singing the Immolation Scene on PBS from Seattle she could not really sing above a G effectively and sang flat because she didn't have the notes. At her vocal peak she lost 100 or so pounds and her voice was never as glorious as it had been and the top never as secure. I have an LP of early recordings in her 20's and 30's and even back then she sang Jocasta from Oedipus Rex and her low notes even then were bigger than Ewa Podles.
In the 90's I heard her do Schubert's Das Tod Das Madchen. Her low D practically rattled my seat. Sorry about the Off Topic .


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Jessye's back is giving her problems and at 70 her voice is a shadow of it's former glory. She sings Ellington and Gershwin and stuff like that....I would skip it based on Youtube. I think by the time of her singing the Immolation Scene on PBS from Seattle she could not really sing above a G effectively and sang flat because she didn't have the notes. At her vocal peak she lost 100 or so pounds and her voice was never as glorious as it had been and the top never as secure. I have an LP of early recordings in her 20's and 30's and even back then she sang Jocasta from Oedipus Rex and her low notes even then were bigger than Ewa Podles.
> In the 90's I heard her do Schubert's Das Tod Das Madchen. Her low D practically rattled my seat. Sorry about the Off Topic .


could you share some clips of this? I've love to hear some of Jessye Norman's low notes!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

. This is one the best examples of her contralto register.



 ahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OfNIRD0bdUnd ending in a low D

Examples of Jessye Norman's alto register.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> . This is one the best examples of her contralto register.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just listened to her, then listened to Marian Anderson. apart from the fact that the latter was a bit more subdued, they sounded extremely similar.


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