# Was the music of JSBach, Vivaldi and other Baroque composers really forgotten?



## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

It is my understanding that the generally accepted belief is that the music of JSBach, Vivaldi, and some other Baroque composers was forgotten for several decades/centuries. I have always found this to be unbelievable but I've just filed it in the back of my mind. Wim Winter recently raised the question in his "Afterthoughts on the music of Czerny" (Absolute Sound: Facebook and YouTube; recommended on TC by Clavichorder). Given Winter's extensive knowledge I thought it would be very appropriate to open a discussion here. (Yes, I do know a great deal of Vivaldi's music was found in the 1930's, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all his music was forgotten.) What do you all think?--were Bach and Vivaldi really forgotten? (I apologize for not expressing myself well.)


----------



## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Bach's _Well-Tempered Clavier_ and Handel's _Messiah_, at least, were always widely studied and performed (respectively). Rameau's operas were performed in Paris until the Revolution, but not after. Don't know about Vivaldi.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Bach's music was always appreciated by the connoisseur at least. Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and circles studied Bach's fugues. Handel was the first composer in all history to have never been forgotten and have a stone monument erected in public space while the composer was still alive. This was exceptional.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Bach and Handel certainly weren't forgotten, though they weren't in popular fashion for a while. Mozart knew his Bach and wrote string quartet arrangements of his fugues. He was even commissioned to write a new orchestration (for then current orchestras) of Handel's Messiah. Beethoven was raised playing Bach's keyboard music and studied what he could of Handel's choral music. From 1780-90 there were "ancient music" societies in Vienna dedicated to performing this music, the most famous of which was that of Baron Gottfried van Swieten; Beethoven was often called to play Bach at his soirees in the early 1790s, "until my fingers bled."

When Beethoven's Diabelli Variations were published, the announcement compared it directly with Bach's Goldberg Variations, in a way suggesting the publisher thought his audience would know that work well.

Bach's choral music was less known, and Mendelssohn started its resurrection about 1830 with a famous performance of the St. Matthew Passion.

Vivaldi seems to have fared less well. His (now) popular Four Seasons wasn't recorded until about 1940.


----------



## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Bach and Handel certainly weren't forgotten, though they weren't in popular fashion for a while. Mozart knew his Bach and wrote string quartet arrangements of his fugues. He was even commissioned to write a new orchestration (for then current orchestras) of Handel's Messiah. Beethoven was raised playing Bach's keyboard music and studied what he could of Handel's choral music. From 1780-90 there were "ancient music" societies in Vienna dedicated to performing this music, the most famous of which was that of Baron Gottfried van Swieten; Beethoven was often called to play Bach at his soirees in the early 1790s, "until my fingers bled."
> 
> When Beethoven's Diabelli Variations were published, the announcement compared it directly with Bach's Goldberg Variations, in a way suggesting the publisher thought his audience would know that work well.
> 
> ...


Thank you, All, for replying. I am going on a birthday celebration outing all day (sigh), but would like to continue this. In my search I found a recording of all the submissions for the Diabelli Variations Contest; I didn't purchase it but it's something I want to explore--have any of you listened to it or are familiar with the other submissions?


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Big shot Schumann thought the Romantics were so much better composers than old Bach and Handel.

Neither of them, however wound up in the looney bin and through their superior compositions, had the last laugh on poor misguided Schumann. Did he leave poor Clara with all the hospital bills?

When I wish to be stimulated, I listen to Bach's WTC. When I wish to be somnambulated, I listen to any of Schumann's serialized piano works.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln (Oct 3, 2015)

Some of them were forgotten in the sense of having fallen into general obscurity, but they were not forgotten in the sense of having completely vanished from the public repertoire.


----------



## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Big shot Schumann thought the Romantics were so much better composers than old Bach and Handel.


Schumann didn't think he was better than Bach. He thought he was better than Haydn.



hpowders said:


> Neither of them, however wound up in the looney bin


Making fun of people suffering from diseases is so cool!


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

As far as we are currently concerned, these three composers will not be forgotten in our listening life times.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> As far as we are currently concerned, these three composers will not be forgotten in our listening life times.


Darned right! How can we ever forget Bach, Handel, and...what was the name of that other guy? :devil:


----------



## Abraham Lincoln (Oct 3, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Darned right! How can we ever forget Bach, Handel, and...what was the name of that other guy? :devil:


Telemann, am I right?


----------



## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Some of them were forgotten in the sense of having fallen into general obscurity, but they were not forgotten in the sense of having completely vanished from the public repertoire.


I can see now that one has to state in great detail in which audiences and contexts a composer and/or the composer's works fell into obscurity. We also have to attempt to define in each of those cases in what sense(s) the composer and/or composer's works "disappeared": i.e., did they vanish from the concert repertoire, the private/family/salon repertoire, no longer used as etudes for students, etc..

The following would have to be explored:

1. history of classical music publishing (does "forgotten" mean that it wasn't published, or published by a well-known publisher, or the publisher's library burnt down, etc.)

2. history of music libraries (Bach had great access to various works because of the existence of a well-funded music "library"; were there many other libraries; did libraries buy music from publishers or obtain hand copied music from a composer, etc....

3. history of classical music performance site (Opera was first to have public opera houses; when a composer/individual perform in a salon such as van Swieten's or even a more informal salon how do we know what was performed, could members "buy" published or hand copied scores of what was performed, were these collections of scores the foundation of some music libraries; what is the history of the non-opera, instrumental concert hall; were the director's of all these halls in close contact with each other or was it more of a capitalistic enterprise that involved secrecy and competition--or is this the context in which music historians have defined popularity of a composer/music?--having collected programs from all these concert halls throughout all their history--who appears most is "not forgotten", etc.

4. Churches and other places of worship: were actual records kept of whose music was performed from a majority of services ???? Ex., maybe Bach's passions were performed more often than we know of, maybe Vivaldi's religious works were performed for decades or centuries?

5. History/"Genealogy" of music instruction: composers and their music have always been handed down in at least several music instruction "trees"--JSBach-Haydn-Mozart-Beethoven-Cerny-Liszt, etc.

That's my preliminary sketch of what one has to explore to state with some degree of accuracy the "popularity"/"forgotten-ness" of a composer's work.......


----------



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

[video]http://www.sundaybaroque.org/listen/listen.html[/video]
a 15 sec ad then some nice music


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Handel was the first composer in all history to have never been forgotten and have a stone monument erected in public space while the composer was still alive. This was exceptional.

This may be true... but I remember when I first started seriously listening to Classical Music that the music by Handel that was available was quite limited. A good majority of the operas and oratorios... to say nothing of the early cantatas were simply impossible to find.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

True, but I remember when Schubert had written seven symphonies, and Dvorak five.


----------



## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

ArtMusic said:


> Handel was the first composer in all history to have never been forgotten and have a stone monument erected in public space while the composer was still alive.


The Catholic Church ensured that Palestrina was never forgotten, along with lesser composers such as Allegri. I don't know if Palestrina got a monument, though.


----------



## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

ldiat said:


> [video]http://www.sundaybaroque.org/listen/listen.html[/video]
> a 15 sec ad then some nice music


Great stuff, ty! 'Found the link to the great site posting all the prodigal pieces.  
https://catapultingintoclassical.wordpress.com/2015/10/29/lost-telemann-work-found-after-280-years/


----------



## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Handel was the first composer in all history to have never been forgotten and have a stone monument erected in public space while the composer was still alive. This was exceptional.
> 
> This may be true... but I remember when I first started seriously listening to Classical Music that the music by Handel that was available was quite limited. A good majority of the operas and oratorios... to say nothing of the early cantatas were simply impossible to find.


At that time did you know that the works existed but just hadn't been recorded? If so, how did you know they existed?


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Schumann didn't think he was better than Bach. He thought he was better than Haydn.
> 
> Making fun of people suffering from diseases is so cool!


Schumann shoulda kept his mouth shut. True- he didn't believe in Haydn his feelings, but in today's world of CM, J.S. is Bach in a very big way and that is sooooo damn HIP!!


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Schumann didn't think he was better than Bach. He thought he was better than Haydn.
> 
> *Making fun of people suffering from diseases is so cool!*


Are you a member of the politically correct police?


----------



## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Cecilia Bartolli wins 2016 Polar Music Prize for Discovering and Performing "Lost and Forgotten" Music!!!

http://polarmusicprize.org/announcement/


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

There was a time during the mid-19th century when Romanticism was in full flower when composers at that time, Schumann in particular foolishly thought they were God's gift to music and the baroque composers were hopelessly old-fashioned.


----------



## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

^ I think a truly wise person appreciates the value of the older, the contemporary and the future; s/he is definitely not too hasty to throw away or discount anything. I think Bach should probably be our model: he sought out the music of many types and ages. It is my understanding that in his time he was the person most knowledgeable of Western Music--pre-renaissance through to his contemporaries.


----------

