# What is JS Bach’s most overrated work?



## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Must complete the three B’s!

My submission:


Mass in B minor


.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

The Magnificat (okay, I may just not "get it" at all and the fault may lie with me?)


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I have yet to hear a Bach piece that I truly disliked, but among the popular works definitely the double violin concerto (good but not even close to his upper tier of compositions) and _Ich Habe Genug_ (again, a great cantata but there are at least 30 cantatas that I think should be better-known).


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

For me, Bach's flute sonatas are not appealing.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

The smaller lutheran masses, especially the G minor and G major are underrated. And I don't think the B minor is overrated.

The Art of the fugue is a decent work, but also seems a bit like a dry showoff in strict counterpoint -doesn't seem to contain the range and wealth of color of the Well-tempered clavier. Much of it comes off as a bit "generic" harmonically compared to, for example, the wonderfully expressive, proto-Schoenbergian A minor prelude from WTC book 2 and B minor fugue from book 1. It's not bad, it just sounds a bit like something "churned out" in the context of Bach's style of writing.
View attachment 143081

View attachment 143082

The common argument supporting this sort of stuff is "do you know how hard is it to write something catchy while keeping all these rules"?





But what if the product is not "catchy"? Does that mean it's not really that hard to write?





Are we supposed to care how complex Luigi Cherubini's "Quadruple Fugue on "Et vitam venturi" from Credo a 8 voci" is, as well? Georg von Pasterwitz (1730~1803) wrote about 300 short contrapuntal pieces for keyboard.



> View attachment Sea Hwa Jung.pdf
> 
> "Of the manuscript compositions by Herr Mozart which have become known, numerous contrapuntal and other church pieces are especially noteworthy."
> http://conquest.imslp.info/files/im...MLP169311-Litaniæ_de_Venerabili_C.pdf#page=42


"Wow, they wrote counterpoint! Isn't that impressive! So they must be great composers!"**









**It baffles me why some people indulge in this sort of idea. I mean the kind of people who like to talk of how much Bach was a "counterpoint pedant" (rather than his expressivity as an artist) when discussing his greatness.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

There is only one piece by Bach that I think is really over rated and it is the Toccata and Fugue BWV 565. Some people question its authenticity as a Bach work. To my ears it does not sound much like other Bach compositions I know, and seems a little amateurish in comparison. Yet somehow it has become among his most popular works.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

tdc said:


> There is only one piece by Bach that I think is really over rated and it is the Toccata and Fugue BWV 565. Some people question its authenticity as a Bach work. To my ears it does not sound much like other Bach compositions I know, and seems a little amateurish in comparison. Yet somehow it has become among his most popular works.


Well wish I could write something as good. No doubt you can?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Handelian said:


> Well wish I could write something as good. No doubt you can?


Saying it sounds amateurish _relative to other Bach_ is not the same as saying it is not good or that anyone could compose something better.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

tdc said:


> Saying it sounds amateurish _relative to other Bach_ is not the same as saying it is not good or that anyone could compose something better.


Amateurish is not the word I would use. Does it's popularity offend you?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

tdc said:


> There is only one piece by Bach that I think is really over rated and it is the Toccata and Fugue BWV 565. Some people question its authenticity as a Bach work. To my ears it does not sound much like other Bach compositions I know, and seems a little amateurish in comparison. Yet somehow it has become among his most popular works.


I'll wait for AbsoluteBachKing's assessment of authenticity.

I'd say it's better than that one Prelude and Fugue by Mozart.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I think BWV 565 is a perfectly fine piece. However, its pervadent use in popular culture for Halloween and horror movies is an atrocious grievance.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Handelian said:


> Amateurish is not the word I would use. Does it's popularity offend you?


Ok, what word would you use? What do you think about the work? The OP asked a question and I gave an answer. Do you feel offended and threatened by my opinion of this work? Are you having an identity crisis because of my comments?


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I think BWV 565 is a perfectly fine piece. However, its pervadent use in popular culture for Halloween and horror movies is an atrocious grievance.


Agreed. It's an excellent work, and saying otherwise amounts to snobbery IMO.

As always in these threads, the point isn't to name works you don't like, but rather those that are esteemed more highly than you personally find them to be.

I don't dislike the Mass in B minor, but I don't understand why it is held up as one of the greatest works in all of western music. It's a bit pedantic IMO.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

tdc said:


> Ok, what word would you use? What do you think about the work? The OP asked a question and I gave an answer. Do you feel offended and threatened by my opinion of this work? Are you having an identity crisis because of my comments?


Why on earth should your comments give me an identity crisis? I don't feel threatened at all - why should I? Are you threatened by my comment? Please don't be. I think the work is brilliant an example of JSB's improvisers skills as an organist.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Agreed. It's an excellent work, and saying otherwise amounts to snobbery IMO.


So you are saying that everyone in the world must think exactly the same as you do about this work, (that it is excellent), or else they are snobs? That is irony.

Anyway no where in my post did I say that I didn't like BWV 565, just that relative to Bach's other works it doesn't seem as masterfully crafted. The counterpoint doesn't seem quite like in Bach's other works, and some have in fact questioned its authenticity.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Handelian said:


> Amateurish is not the word I would use. Does it's popularity offend you?


Why'd you have to make it personal so soon? Can't you disagree with someone without personally insulting them?

I love the T&F in D minor, Bach's or not. I'm fairly persuaded it's not his, and it wouldn't be the first piece incorrectly attributed to him. I'm always thankful it was included in Disney's Fantasia, though!


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

The Coffee Cantata and also BWV 198 (Laß, Fürstin...)



hammeredklavier said:


> The Art of the fugue is a decent work, but also seems a bit like a dry showoff in strict counterpoint -doesn't seem to contain the range and wealth of color of the Well-tempered clavier. Much of it comes off as a bit "generic" harmonically...


Mozart would've disagreed. And "generic"? Have you listened to or played no. 3 or 11? Come on.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> Mozart would've disagreed. And "generic"? Have you listened to or played no. 3 or 11? Come on.


In comparison to the WTC, I'm saying. I don't think anything in it has expressive quality like the F sharp minor from book II. They're still ok. As I have mentioned in other threads, Mozart's interest in Michael Haydn's contrapuntal expressions continued throughout his life as well, (continued to ask his father to send him the latest fugues Michael had written.) Many people today seem to treat the AOTF as some sort of "be-all and end-all" in contrapuntal expressions. But I think different "aesthetic goals" also need to be considered. Bach's typical attitude is to utilize as many contrapuntal devices as possible and to be really ambitious, (and the idea did have some influence on Mozart) but I don't necessarily think it always produced the "objectively best" results every time.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> In comparison to the WTC, I'm saying. I don't think anything in it has expressive quality like the F sharp minor from book II. They're still ok. As I have mentioned in other threads, Mozart's interest in Michael Haydn's contrapuntal expressions continued throughout his life as well, (continued to ask his father to send him the latest fugues Michael had written.) Many people today seem to treat the AOTF as some sort of "be-all and end-all" in contrapuntal expressions. ....


Well I do think it's the "be all and end all" as far as demonstrating fugue structure, along with the two fugues from Musical Offering. The WTC isn't built on one single theme, and Art of Fugue probably wasn't meant to be "performed" anyway in the usual sense. The Goldberg Variations don't display the variety of WTC, either...by definition.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

I always thought that save for _Piano Concerto #1_, the _Piano Concertos #2-7_ sound rushed and uninspired.

So how do you tell a great composer he's composed something less than masterful?


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Coach G said:


> I always thought that save for _Piano Concerto #1_, the _Piano Concertos #2-7_ sound rushed and uninspired.
> 
> So you do you tell a great composer he's composed something less than masterful?


Huh? This sounds masterful to me (and apologies to HIPsters out there):


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

consuono said:


> Huh? This sounds masterful to me (and apologies to HIPsters out there):


Let me retract my statement. I forgot that I've never heard the 6th. I have Glenn Gould's recording of 1-5 & 7.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Coach G said:


> Let me retract my statement. I forgot that I've never heard the 6th. I have Glenn Gould's recording of 1-5 & 7.


Ya know, until very recently I thought the same thing about the keyboard concertos. Then because of some comments here I listened again and saw I was wrong. They're all recycled material but in each case it seems Bach improved it, at least where we have the originals for comparison. I personally think the 6th is superior to the Brandenburg original.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

tdc said:


> There is only one piece by Bach that I think is really over rated and it is the Toccata and Fugue BWV 565. Some people question its authenticity as a Bach work. To my ears it does not sound much like other Bach compositions I know, and seems a little amateurish in comparison. *Yet somehow* it has become among his most popular works.


It is more melodious than any other / any J.S. Bach work.

signed, 
humanity

:tiphat:


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*What is JS Bach's most overrated work?*

Probably ... Vivaldi's _Four Seasons_ concerti, especially for all those who tend to say: "All that Baroque stuff sounds the same to me."


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> *What is JS Bach's most overrated work?*
> 
> Probably ... Vivaldi's _Four Seasons_ concerti, especially for all those who tend to say: "All that Baroque stuff sounds the same to me."


Nah, Spring mvt. 1 might be overplayed, but most people roll their eyes at the Four Seasons. I love them, though, and many of Vivaldi's violin concerti. If anything Vivaldi is underrated. But that's for a different thread.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Must complete the three B's!
> 
> My submission:
> 
> ...


May God forgive you, after your necessary stint in Purgatory.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

AeolianStrains said:


> Nah, Spring mvt. 1 might be overplayed, but most people roll their eyes at the Four Seasons. I love them, though, and many of Vivaldi's violin concerti. If anything Vivaldi is underrated. But that's for a different thread.


I've taken some potshots at Vivaldi, but if I'm honest I'll have to say I'm not acquainted well enough with his whole body of work to do that. His music is pleasant and evocative enough. Maybe it's unfortunate that so much attention has been paid to the Four Seasons set.

PS...I wish this site would give us a window of a minute or two to edit out typos and thus escape the "edited" label. :lol:


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

If you continue to be bothered by popular opinions, you should not listen to classical music at all. There are many kinds of music available for this purpose.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Never mind

_[Message Deleted]_


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Fabulin said:


> It is more melodious than any other / any J.S. Bach work.
> 
> signed,
> humanity
> ...


Though there must be a difference between a composer coincidentally writing a catchy melody, and works of music of which it's the destiny of the composer to do nothing more but find the greatest potentials in melody and its timing, the only prime achievement that sounds right to them. Why I might not care much about the Toccata and Fugue coincidentally being catchy or well-rounded, but who are the composers who care so much about melody ie. note-potential that they dismiss all other features like Classical craft and lyrical writing, to simply write the line and its harmonic and dynamic journey? I can't think of many Classical composers or even pop composers. The biggest one has been Uematsu writing for simple instruments, but what a difference in ideologies within all the different composers of music... How can we say one objectively better than the other in what constitutes music? Maybe we have differences about 'what should surround melody to its smallest effect' because people still think there need to be harmony there... or one has to choose the right instruments to play it, or what IS a good melody to begin with? For instance, there have been so many different arrangements of Uematsu's melodies where there's always a certain instrumental style or 'cue/moment' in harmonic change that each sounds right for that melody, some he has turned orchestral, lyrical, or unique in instrumentation, simply to bring more atmosphere ie. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] to name a few.

Or is melody only about ushering in interesting harmonic swells? ie. [1] [2]


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> For me, Bach's flute sonatas are not appealing.


It's funny you mention that, I don't care for them much either. For me they're lacking in the wonderful dissonances that are one of Bach's hallmarks, and I just generally find them not very compelling.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

AeolianStrains said:


> Why'd you have to make it personal so soon? Can't you disagree with someone without personally insulting them?
> 
> I love the T&F in D minor, Bach's or not. I'm fairly persuaded it's not his, and it wouldn't be the first piece incorrectly attributed to him. I'm always thankful it was included in Disney's Fantasia, though!


Without feeling insulted by the fact that I disagree with you, what persuade you that T&F in D minor is not by JSB when the manuscript evidence points to the fact it is by him?


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> It's funny you mention that, I don't care for them much either. For me they're lacking in the wonderful dissonances that are one of Bach's hallmarks, and I just generally find them not very compelling.


Perhaps they are not by Bach either if we go by the criteria of some scholars


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Handelian said:


> Without feeling insulted by the fact that I disagree with you, what persuade you that T&F in D minor is not by JSB when the manuscript evidence points to the fact it is by him?


I'm not a Bach scholar, but the reasons that persuaded me were textual, that this is so unlike Bach's other compositions. Peter Williams covers the details in his three volume monograph on Bach, but also rehashes it in a 2014 article "Bach and the Organ" in the Musical Times (vol. 155 no. 1926 p. 13).

I should note that it's not about quality, but that it's unique in doing certain things. But as I'm not a music scholar, I don't want to press it. It's still a fantastic piece.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Ending a piece in its tonic minor is very very unusual in Bach as well


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

AeolianStrains said:


> I'm not a Bach scholar, but the reasons that persuaded me were textual, that this is so unlike Bach's other compositions. Peter Williams covers the details in his three volume monograph on Bach, but also rehashes it in a 2014 article "Bach and the Organ" in the Musical Times (vol. 155 no. 1926 p. 13).
> 
> I should note that it's not about quality, but that it's unique in doing certain things. But as I'm not a music scholar, I don't want to press it. It's still a fantastic piece.


The problem is there is always some scholar who wants to make a name for himself by writing things like this. Sometimes these people are just saying Bach was a limited as they were. There was someone who reckoned Anna Magdalena wrote the cello suites some time ago. The fact is at the time of the manuscript there was absolutely no reason for attributing it to Bach


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Handelian said:


> The problem is there is always some scholar who wants to make a name for himself by writing things like this. Sometimes these people are just saying Bach was a limited as they were.


Yeah, or it's "I don't really care for this piece very much, so it must not be by Bach". The D minor Toccata and Fugue isn't one of my favorite Bach works either, but I can't imagine it being by anyone else. It's the same as with BWV 50, which I love: I can't imagine anyone else writing it.

As for this silly assertion which I've also seen:


> There was someone who reckoned Anna Magdalena wrote the cello suites some time ago. ...


I would say politics came into play.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Handelian said:


> The problem is there is always some scholar who wants to make a name for himself by writing things like this. Sometimes these people are just saying Bach was a limited as they were. There was someone who reckoned Anna Magdalena wrote the cello suites some time ago. The fact is at the time of the manuscript there was absolutely no reason for attributing it to Bach


Peter Williams is definitely not "some scholar" looking to make a name with this controversial statement. He was one of the foremost Bach scholars of his time. He was named a distinguished professor chair at Duke among other appointments and was the president of the British Institute of Organ Studies.

You can disagree with him---other scholars do---but the ad hominem is actually laughable.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

AeolianStrains said:


> Peter Williams is definitely not "some scholar" looking to make a name with this controversial statement. He was one of the foremost Bach scholars of his time. He was named a distinguished professor chair at Duke among other appointments and was the president of the British Institute of Organ Studies.
> 
> You can disagree with him---other scholars do---but the ad hominem is actually laughable.


Yes but that doesn't make him right. I've known 'distinguished scholars' who have had egg on their faces many times. Just goes with the territory. Amazing how these theories go in and out of fashion.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Handelian said:


> Yes but that doesn't make him right. I've known 'distinguished scholars' who have had egg on their faces many times. Just goes with the territory. Amazing how these theories go in and out of fashion.


Sure, I'm not saying he's right, I'm saying I was persuaded. No one will ever really know. You trust the manuscript tradition, and that's fine.

It's not really "egg on face," though. People are allowed to be wrong if they have good evidence for it. That's how scholarship works.

Williams also was writing decades ago and many scholars are still suspicious of Bach's authorship, so it's hardly a "fashion statement."


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

AeolianStrains said:


> Sure, I'm not saying he's right, I'm saying I was persuaded. No one will ever really know. You trust the manuscript tradition, and that's fine.
> 
> It's not really "egg on face," though. People are allowed to be wrong if they have good evidence for it. That's how scholarship works.
> 
> Williams also was writing decades ago and many scholars are still suspicious of Bach's authorship, so it's hardly a "fashion statement."


Oh yes but he was writing at a time of general skepticism in scholarship. I always think unless you have proof it's not by Bach then it is pretty obvious it is


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

AeolianStrains said:


> Peter Williams is definitely not "some scholar" looking to make a name with this controversial statement. ...


But that's what most scholars do, though...although maybe not deliberately "controversial". They do always try to find new angles though even on well-worn ground. It justifies being a scholar. I haven't read any of the investigations into authorship. If it isn't by Bach then I wonder who the likely candidate would be.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I don't dislike the Mass in B minor, but I don't understand why it is held up as one of the greatest works in all of western music. It's a bit pedantic IMO.


I think the quiet choral moments are the most sublime. Parts I like somewhat less are the arias with early 18th-century style basso continuo, and the jubilant moments (the gloria and sanctus) where the baroque trumpet seems to "stick out" too much (imv) as in Cantata BWV70.
It's more a personal taste thing. I tend to like the way later composers go about doing things in terms of orchestration and stuff: 



But I would not blame Bach for these things. He produced (arguably) the best music of the stylistic idiom he worked with. The more I find out about his predecessors and contemporaries such as H.I. Biber, J.F. Fasch, J.D. Zelenka, the more I'm convinced. I think we can at least agree on that.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Fabulin said:


> It is more melodious than any other / any J.S. Bach work.
> 
> signed,
> humanity
> ...


Try this


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I think the quiet choral moments are the most sublime. Parts I like somewhat less are the arias with early 18th-century style basso continuo, and the jubilant moments (the gloria and sanctus) where the baroque trumpet seems to "stick out" too much (imv) as in Cantata BWV70.
> ...


Oh, come on now...




And while we're on the subject:










Put that in your trumpet and blow it. ut:


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Coach G said:


> I always thought that save for _Piano Concerto #1_, the _Piano Concertos #2-7_ sound rushed and uninspired.
> 
> So how do you tell a great composer he's composed something less than masterful?


Bach would not have rated himself asa 'great composer'. He merely said: 'I worked hard. Anyone else who works as hard as I do will produce the same results.' So come on guys let's all work hard and will have the world flowing with St Matthew passions!


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Fabulin said:


> It is more melodious than any other / any J.S. Bach work.
> 
> signed,
> humanity
> ...


I assume you know very little of Bach, Humanity! :tiphat:


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Here are some more trumpets sticking out for your enjoyment:










Merry Christmas, everybody.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> I think the quiet choral moments are the most sublime. Parts I like somewhat less are the arias with early 18th-century style basso continuo, and the jubilant moments (the gloria and sanctus) where the baroque trumpet seems to "stick out" too much (imv) as in Cantata BWV70.


That's odd. Why wouldn't you want those trumpet projections to ring out strongly?


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Incidentally, here's one of the most haunting uses of the trumpet ever:


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

consuono said:


> Incidentally, here's one of the most haunting uses of the trumpet ever:


And in these two. Stereotypical celebration indeed!


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## JakeWebster (Dec 26, 2020)

Either _Mass in B Minor_ or _Well-Tempered Clavier_. I don't like either of them.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

JakeWebster said:


> Either _Mass in B Minor_ or _Well-Tempered Clavier_. I don't like either of them.


That doesn't mean to say they're overrated


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## JakeWebster (Dec 26, 2020)

Handelian said:


> That doesn't mean to say they're overrated


That's how I define overrated - how much I dislike it in comparison to the general opinion.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

JakeWebster said:


> That's how I define overrated - how much I dislike it in comparison to the general opinion.


I wondered why I think most modern composers are so dreadfully over-rated. Now I know!


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

I do wish we'd have an end to these over-rated/under-rated threads. They're fundamentally rather silly, in that they just invite personal opinions from people who either like or dislike something _a lot_, but couched in a wrapper of 'my opinion has significance'.

There's no sense in which answers to these sorts of questions are actually objectively or even popularly true or false. One might as well ask 'Is today's sky a bit bluer than yesterday's?"

I like the Current Listening thread: this is what I'm listening to, I like it a lot/not much/think it's awful. It's instantaneous perceptions, without the pretense of "my opinion has validity for all time and space"!


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> Is today's sky a bit bluer than yesterday's?


Since yesterday was cloudy and snowy here, yes it is. :lol:

However I do get and agree with the point. These threads should go away so people won't make fools of themselves by claiming that Bach and the B minor Mass are overrated.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

consuono said:


> Since yesterday was cloudy and snowy here, yes it is. :lol:
> 
> However I do get and agree with the point. These threads should go away so people won't make fools of themselves by claiming that Bach and the B minor Mass are overrated.


Ah well, we've got Storm Bertha to deal with (I am vague on names, so I might be wrong on the specifics!). Anyway, for me, today is *not* bluer than yesterday, which just goes to show that you are wrong and I am righter than McRight Right McRight...

You get the drift. A *snow* drift! Ha!

Well, you get my point. I am not sure of the point of having popularity threads on a site that is dedicated to listening to music that doesn't register a 0.001 on the Richter scale of popularity. But folks will be folks.... carry on!


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> Ah well, we've got Storm Bertha to deal with (I am vague on names, so I might be wrong on the specifics!). Anyway, for me, today is *not* bluer than yesterday, which just goes to show that you are wrong and I am righter than McRight Right McRight...
> 
> You get the drift. A *snow* drift! Ha!
> 
> Well, you get my point. ...


You're right from your side and I'm right from mine, as the overrated song would have it. :lol:


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I do wish we'd have an end to these over-rated/under-rated threads. They're fundamentally rather silly, in that they just invite personal opinions from people who either like or dislike something _a lot_, but couched in a wrapper of 'my opinion has significance'.
> 
> There's no sense in which answers to these sorts of questions are actually objectively or even popularly true or false. One might as well ask 'Is today's sky a bit bluer than yesterday's?"
> 
> I like the Current Listening thread: this is what I'm listening to, I like it a lot/not much/think it's awful. It's instantaneous perceptions, without the pretense of "my opinion has validity for all time and space"!


I completely agree with everything you said here.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

The Cantatas. There is too much other amazing music in the world to spend much time listening to them when we have the Passions and the b minor mass to summarise Bach’s efforts in the area.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I wouldn't call it overrated but I have never enjoyed the B minor mass or any of J.S. Bach's masses as much as the Easter Oratorio, St. Matthew Passion, cantatas or Magnificat.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I do wish we'd have an end to these over-rated/under-rated threads. They're fundamentally rather silly, in that they just invite personal opinions from people who either like or dislike something _a lot_, but couched in a wrapper of 'my opinion has significance'.
> 
> There's no sense in which answers to these sorts of questions are actually objectively or even popularly true or false. One might as well ask 'Is today's sky a bit bluer than yesterday's?"
> 
> I like the Current Listening thread: this is what I'm listening to, I like it a lot/not much/think it's awful. It's instantaneous perceptions, without the pretense of "my opinion has validity for all time and space"!


I glad to see someone post this; I have thought it. I also am tired of the Composer vs. Composer or Work vs. Work threads/polls. The one of the Haydn SQ vs. Ferneyhough SQ is especially trivial.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Best thing to do with this type of thread is read/ignore chuckle to yourself put on some music and enjoy listening.
Simple :tiphat:


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I do wish we'd have an end to these over-rated/under-rated threads. They're fundamentally rather silly, in that they just invite personal opinions from people who either like or dislike something _a lot_, but couched in a wrapper of 'my opinion has significance'.
> 
> There's no sense in which answers to these sorts of questions are actually objectively or even popularly true or false. One might as well ask 'Is today's sky a bit bluer than yesterday's?"
> 
> I like the Current Listening thread: this is what I'm listening to, I like it a lot/not much/think it's awful. It's instantaneous perceptions, without the pretense of "my opinion has validity for all time and space"!


Underrated post


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

RogerWaters said:


> The Cantatas. There is too much other amazing music in the world to spend much time listening to them when we have the Passions and the b minor mass to summarise Bach's efforts in the area.


Sounds like you're putting a quota on Bach sacred choral music. Doesn't make sense to me.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I do wish we'd have an end to these over-rated/under-rated threads. They're fundamentally rather silly, in that they just invite personal opinions from people who either like or dislike something _a lot_, but couched in a wrapper of 'my opinion has significance'.
> 
> There's no sense in which answers to these sorts of questions are actually objectively or even popularly true or false. One might as well ask 'Is today's sky a bit bluer than yesterday's?"
> 
> I like the Current Listening thread: this is what I'm listening to, I like it a lot/not much/think it's awful. It's instantaneous perceptions, without the pretense of "my opinion has validity for all time and space"!


But there's very little discussion on the Current Listening thread. People just paste videos or pictures and that's it. No reactions are expressed except for "likes".

At least threads like this invite discussion.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I do wish we'd have an end to these over-rated/under-rated threads. They're fundamentally rather silly, in that they just invite personal opinions from people who either like or dislike something _a lot_, but couched in a wrapper of 'my opinion has significance'.
> 
> There's no sense in which answers to these sorts of questions are actually objectively or even popularly true or false. One might as well ask 'Is today's sky a bit bluer than yesterday's?"
> 
> I like the Current Listening thread: this is what I'm listening to, I like it a lot/not much/think it's awful. It's instantaneous perceptions, without the pretense of "my opinion has validity for all time and space"!


I don't think people usually get self-righteous like that (from what I've seen at least) but I definitely agree there's more effective ways to generate discussion because ultimately they come down to a fairly shallow difference of opinion.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

RogerWaters said:


> The Cantatas. There is too much other amazing music in the world to spend much time listening to them when we have the Passions and the b minor mass to summarise Bach's efforts in the area.


But what makes the Passions and Masses great are the same things that make the cantatas great. Now the cantatas are not all of the very same quality, but overall as a body of work I still think it's the greatest that we have. They're astonishing, especially when you consider how many of the highest quality were composed within a span of about three years, from 1723-1726.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Open Book said:


> But there's very little discussion on the Current Listening thread. People just paste videos or pictures and that's it. No reactions are expressed except for "likes".
> 
> At least threads like this invite discussion.


Although I don't spend much time on the Current Listening thread, I have noticed an uptick in conversation in recent months.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

consuono said:


> But what makes the Passions and Masses great are the same things that make the cantatas great.


And that would be Bach.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I do wish we'd have an end to these over-rated/under-rated threads. They're fundamentally rather silly, in that they just invite personal opinions from people who either like or dislike something _a lot_, but couched in a wrapper of 'my opinion has significance'.
> 
> There's no sense in which answers to these sorts of questions are actually objectively or even popularly true or false. One might as well ask 'Is today's sky a bit bluer than yesterday's?"


Hear, hear! Thank you for this.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> Sounds like you're putting a quota on Bach sacred choral music. Doesn't make sense to me.


Economists at least get one thing right: everything we do incurs an opportunity cost, including listening to music.

When Bach has better Choral music and when listening to Bach's Choral music means one ignores so much other good music by Bach and other composers and even different styles of music altogether, the conclusion for me is to leave the Cantatas and to cherish the Mass and Passions.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

RogerWaters said:


> Economists at least get one thing right: everything we do incurs an opportunity cost, including listening to music.
> 
> When Bach has better Choral music and when listening to Bach's Choral music means one ignores so much other good music by Bach and other composers and even different styles of music altogether, the conclusion for me is to leave the Cantatas and to cherish the Mass and Passions.


On the other hand the time I spend listening to some cacophony that I'm supposed to admire could've been spent listening to some more Bach cantatas. As the Rachmaninoff quote that commenter SixFootScowl uses as his signature puts it, "Life is too short to spend it wandering in the barren Saharas of musical trash". To each his own.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> As the Rachmaninoff quote that commenter SixFootScowl uses as his signature puts it, "Life is too short to spend it wandering in the barren Saharas of musical trash". To each his own.


Did you notice SFS changed his signature to "Mozart wrote for next Saturday; Beethoven wrote for eternity."?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

RogerWaters said:


> When Bach has better Choral music and when listening to Bach's Choral music means one ignores so much other good music by Bach and other composers and even different styles of music altogether, the conclusion for me is to leave the Cantatas and to cherish the Mass and Passions.


The difference between us here is that I find the music in the cantatas every bit as fine as the music in Bach's larger-scale choral works.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> The difference between us here is that I find the music in the cantatas every bit as fine as the music in Bach's larger-scale choral works.


Certainly in many of them.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I don't see listening to Bach as a zero sum game. There is plenty of time to listen to the cantatas and masses, as well as the instrumental music. I probably listen to Bach more than any other composer, and think there is a remarkable consistency in the quality of the music.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Did you notice SFS changed his signature to "Mozart wrote for next Saturday; Beethoven wrote for eternity."?


Nope, I didn't notice that. I'll have to remember that for future use. :lol: (Just kidding of course...I don't agree with it.)


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