# The TC Sibelius Appreciation Society



## Tapkaara

I hereby inaugurate the official Tall Classical Sibelius Appreciation Society. Welcome!

Yes, there have been other threads about Sibelius in the past. But seeing as that they are all practically dead, and a moderator confirmed to me that repeat threads are indeed tolerated here, I see this as a wonderful opportunity to start a fresh discussion on the subject of one of my absolute favorite composers, Finland's Jean Sibelius (1865 - 1957).

The Society is recruiting members now! All you need is a computer, internet access and an appreciation for the Nordic master.

To kick things off, my first question to the society:

_*Do you remember your first experience listening to Sibelius? How did you react?*_
I can remember mine. It would have been about 1994 or 1995. I was in high school. I began getting interested in foreign languages and Finnish was one of those languages. Certainly, when you study any language, a study of the country where the language is spoken comes naturally. And indeed, when studying Finland, you cannot avoid the topic of their national hero, Jean Sibelius.

So, I had to hear what the fuss was about. I had a vinyl record player at the time and just so happened to snag a Sibelius recording at the thrift store. What luck, I thought! It was a late 1950s Herbert von Karajan recording with the Philharmonia. It included the 5th Symphony and Finlandia.

Well, I was initially quite perplexed. Mind you, I had only a limited exposure to classical music at the time and I was not a fan of said music. Finlandia seemed exciting enough: nice tunes, dramatic instrumentation, etc. But the 5th...it was perhaps the weirdest classical music I'd ever heard. It was harder to follow than Finlandia. And what a goofy ending!

Sibelius, as it turned out, did little for me, aside from somewhat having enjoyed Finlandia. But a year or so later, I saw an inexpensive CD of Sibelius's music at Tower Records. It had a few tone poems including The Swan of Tuonela and En Saga. The Karliea Suite too. (Sir Malcolm Sagent and the BBC Philharmonic.) This is when things started to click. En Saga and the Swan were murky and mysterious...cinematic even. This was music that was odd, as was the 5th Symphony, but it seemsed more linear and more cohesive. The music was telling a story...and I liked it a lot. I went back to the 5th after hearing this Malcolm Sargent recording and I discovered I could undestand the 5th a little bit better now. It was still odd...but beautifully so. Taking in all of this music ended up being very satisfying. I felt like I had discovered something completely new. And indeed I did!

This was not only my introduction to Sibelius, but my real introduction to classical music. Yes, it was Sibelius who started it all.

I feel great nostalgia for Sibelius as a result. So much of his music instantly makes me recall my youth. But the more I have listened to him over the years, the more I have come to connect with him. I feel more connected than ever today. So there is much more than simple nostalgia, there is the most profound of appreciation as well. I could not imagine my life without his music.

Sorry, that was long. It's now YOUR turn, dear society members, to answer the same question. *What was YOUR first Sbelius experience like?*


----------



## clavichorder

This can be a thread as well, but have you considered making this into a "Group"?


----------



## clavichorder

My first Sibelius experience was a rather challenging experience with his 7th symphony at my local SO last year. I wasn't ready for it and its one of his most difficult pieces but I was interested in the fact that it was in one movement. Part of the reason was that I was not in a mood to zone in at the concert. But I agreed with the person I attended with, that it was a "chilly" work.

Edit: and by chilly, I meant that it was somehow evocative of the north and cold.


----------



## mmsbls

My first experience was hearing his second symphony on a recording by Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra. I immediately loved it. It's still my favorite of his symphonies. I wasn't sure what to expect since I had read widely differing views of Sibelius. I quickly discarded the views of those who feel Sibelius was not first rate.


----------



## Ukko

The 2nd symphony, on a record club LP.

Residents in more moderate climes may not understand the effect of the first hearing of this work on a teenager who spent considerable time in the winter Vermont woods. The music 'literally' got me where I lived. The evocation, intended or not (I gather that it approximately was) was perfect.

Later, when I heard the violin concerto, the sensation was concentrated in the instrument, sort of an individual's reaction to the same winter environment/surroundings.

Great stuff.

[I have much more, but I'll save it.]


----------



## Sid James

I was in my early teens and I was listening to a live broadcast here of "symphony in the park." One of the items was Sibelius' _*Finlandia*_. I remember I loved it because it is very optimistic, dramatic and has the vibe or "sweep" of film music.

A bit later I was interested in buying a recording of Sibelius' "greatest hits" (I had been collecting that CBS series, they were one of my ways of getting into the classical mainstream rep then). But my father discouraged me from buying Sibelius at such a young age, he said Sibelius' music was too serious, it's more for maturer people. But you know what? Not long after I bought Sibelius' _Violin Concerto_ as well as some of his tone poems (incl. _Finlandia_, the _Karelia Suite_, _Pohjola's Daughter_, etc.) on Naxos, and I liked them a lot.

I can talk more but that'll be enough for now, I think...


----------



## Tapkaara

clavichorder said:


> This can be a thread as well, but have you considered making this into a "Group"?


I was not aware you could do this, and i don't know how to do it. I am happy keeping it a thread for now...


----------



## Tapkaara

mmsbls said:


> I wasn't sure what to expect since I had read widely differing views of Sibelius. I quickly discarded the views of those who feel Sibelius was not first rate.


That's one thing about Sibelius: he tends to get strong reactions (positive or negative) from people. I have encountered those who consider Sibelius second rate, or worse, and I try very hard to understand their point of view.

I believe Sibelius is a "difficult" composer. Which is strange if you think about it because his works are always quite melodic and can seem quite conservative of the surface. Bet the is a "chill factor." The works are not necessarily the most initially inviting. Someone hearing the opening cello riff in Pohjola's Daughter may feel quite unwelcome! So, in a way, Sibelius is more than music, it's a specific state of mind. I think for most people some work is needed to reach that state of mind. But if you are lucky to reach it, wonderful spectral delights await you inside.


----------



## Ravellian

I started exploring his symphonies about a year ago and I was very impressed. They are a mixed lot - much of it is lavishly romantic and grandiose a la Tchaikovsky (esp. the 1st, 2nd, and 5th), the 3rd and 6th are more lyrical and folklike, the 4th is pathetique, and I still quite haven't figured out the 7th. All extremely listenable and easy to follow (except maybe the 7th). The 2nd especially seems Beethovenesque to me in its great depth and grandeur and means of telling an extended tonal musical story. 

I have also ventured more into his other orchestral works, which are quite a varied lot. I really like the Lemminkainen suite and its use of the bass drum, which seems to give it a kind of Nordic flavor.

Oh, and the Violin Concerto is amazing. Best 3rd movement ever - it makes me want to dance!


----------



## Klavierspieler

Couple of days ago, actually. I listened to his _Finlandia_, spurred on by the _Strauss vs. Sibelius_ thread.


----------



## DavidMahler

I think my first Sibelius experience was either the 1st or 2nd Symphony. I had been familiar with Valse Triste for several years but not in its original orchestration. Wayne Shorter performs a jazz version of it which I had known.

I don't recall my initial impression of Sibelius. I think it really hit me hard the very first time I heard the Violin Concerto. Sometimes, even great works are hard to digest, and then you hear a work that you get immediately. Once that work gets inside you, you become familiar with the composer's world and way of thinking and can return to the other works. The Violin Concerto was my gateway to feeling like I understood Sibelius's world.


----------



## science

I've been exploring the symphonies for awhile, but don't feel qualified to issue statements on them yet. 

For now I like the tone poems, and I fervently love the violin concerto. 

One work that is new to me is Kullervo. Innarestin thing.


----------



## Tapkaara

Ravellian said:


> I started exploring his symphonies about a year ago and I was very impressed. They are a mixed lot - much of it is lavishly romantic and grandiose a la Tchaikovsky (esp. the 1st, 2nd, and 5th), the 3rd and 6th are more lyrical and folklike, the 4th is pathetique, and I still quite haven't figured out the 7th. All extremely listenable and easy to follow (except maybe the 7th). The 2nd especially seems Beethovenesque to me in its great depth and grandeur and means of telling an extended tonal musical story.
> 
> I have also ventured more into his other orchestral works, which are quite a varied lot. I really like the Lemminkainen suite and its use of the bass drum, which seems to give it a kind of Nordic flavor.
> 
> Oh, and the Violin Concerto is amazing. Best 3rd movement ever - it makes me want to dance!


Interesting that you say that the Violin Concerto has the best third movement ever. People normally cite its third movement as the weakest part of the concerto, which I would agree with to an extent. It's not that it's bad...it's not...it's just that the first two movements are so amazing that the third and final movement seems somewhat routine and not up to the same standard when placed side by side. You should hear the original version of the concerto, which I prefer, by the way.

Ah yes, thank you for mentioning the bass drum in the Four Legends. As I had mentioned in another thread, Sibelius was a true devotee of percussion. People are sometimes puzzled to hear that, but if you listen a little more closely, it's pretty plain.

I have never thought of the 2nd Symphony as Beethovenian. It'll give me a new perspective the next time I listen. But I agree, even though Sibelius adamantly denied any concrete program for that work, it does tell something of a story. Nothing like a Kalevala legend or anything like that, but the way the music unfolds seems to have a mysterious narrative of sorts.


----------



## tdc

My introduction to Sibelius was similar to Tapkaara's. I bought a set of Sibelius complete symphonies (Blomstedt), listened to all of them, and while I was grabbed by certain moments, I wasn't completely sold on him right away. Its actually hard to pinpoint exactly when the change happened, but at a certain point (kind of like explained by DavidMahler) I started to understand Sibelius 'musical world' or 'language' if you will through repeated listenings, and became quite caught up in the breath taking colors and landscapes of these symphonic works. Gorgeous stuff, and his music can really kind of pull on my heart strings at times. I still don't own a recording of the Violin Concerto, its a work I'm really looking forward to exploring further.


----------



## Weston

I'm pretty sure I first became aware of Sibelius when I was in my late 20's. That would have been mid 1980's. It was the 1st symphony played on classical radio. I worked at home then and had no interruptions, so I could really focus on it. That opening movement captured my imagination so much Sibelius became one of my top symphonists.

These days I still like his symphonies, but I am less thrilled by his non-formal music, the tone poems and incidental pieces that I have gathered, trying to find more of the dopamine rush I usually have with his symphonies. However I don't understand why anyone would dislike _any _of his output. None of it is boring or unpleasant or trite or any of the other adjectives you would use for something disliked.


----------



## hespdelk

I had known a few of Sibelius' shorter pieces from childhood - notably the Valse triste and Finlandia. Oddly didn't really explore beyond that until my late teens, first with the 2nd symphony then the violin concerto. I discovered the concerto by 'accident' at that time, as it was the other piece on a cd which I had acquired for the Tchaikovsky violin concerto. Love at first listen with the Sibelius, I ended up listening to my unexpected discovery much more than the piece I had originally sought.

I can't say I've ever come across a Sibelius piece I haven't liked right away though. Some I love more, but none have turned me away.


----------



## Dodecaplex

My first experience with Sibelius also happened around 1993 - 1994 and it was truly remarkable. I still remember how I selected my time signature, my key signature, and the notes that I wanted to input. It felt great.


----------



## Couchie

Tapkaara said:


> I was not aware you could do this, and i don't know how to do it. I am happy keeping it a thread for now...


Translation: There's no way we can compete with the TC Wagner Society.

:devil:

My primary exposure to Sibelius is through the 10-second clips of his symphonies that accompany the launch of the Sibelius music notation software. In addition, his Violin Concerto is among my favourites of the genre.


----------



## Ukko

Tapkaara said:


> [...]
> I have never thought of the 2nd Symphony as Beethovenian. It'll give me a new perspective the next time I listen. But I agree, even though Sibelius adamantly denied any concrete program for that work, it does tell something of a story. Nothing like a Kalevala legend or anything like that, but the way the music unfolds seems to have a mysterious narrative of sorts.


For me, the 2nd Symphony creates a scene with tactile and olfactory elements, the focus first very wide, then zooming in, then shifting to a different wide view. I seem to smell the evergreens, and feel the chill.

The 4th is similar, but with significant differences. the 'place' is tundra and taiga, and the feel is less physical and more spiritual - but the spirits are not Christian or even Norse - they are the spirits who dwell in the wild places, and they are not happy with my presence.

[See how much pleasure Sibelius' music brings me? I hope all of you are so fortunate.]


----------



## TxllxT

My first Sibelius session was with Paavo Berglund & the Bournemouth Orchestra featuring a big LP Box with all the tone poems. Soon after that came David Oistrakh & Eugene Ormandy with a magic recording of the violin concerto. The low rumble in the orchestra just before the intro of the violin: :tiphat:, guaranteed to give one a lifelong addiction. For the late symphonies I prefer Karajan, for the early ones Okko Kamu. Sir Thomas Beecham being a great contender. Most modern interpretations lack the pagan lone wolf battle against the elements.


----------



## kv466

I'll join! While my first exposure was through radio, the first time I sat down and put in a disc with a piece by Sibelius and sat through and enjoyed it was the F#minor sonatine, op.67 by Glenn Gould...I knew then and there that my favorite pianist couldn't be wrong about one of his favorite composers. Oh, and the sounds were so lovely. I am currently still embarked on a Sibelius journey and hope this fine thread will help to broaden my knowledge of his works.


----------



## Tapkaara

TxllxT said:


> My first Sibelius session was with Paavo Berglund & the Bournemouth Orchestra featuring a big LP Box with all the tone poems. Soon after that came David Oistrakh & Eugene Ormandy with a magic recording of the violin concerto. The low rumble in the orchestra just before the intro of the violin: :tiphat:, guaranteed to give one a lifelong addiction. For the late symphonies I prefer Karajan, for the early ones Okko Kamu. Sir Thomas Beecham being a great contender. Most modern interpretations lack the pagan lone wolf battle against the elements.


"Pagan." I like that word when describing Sibelius. There is wildness in his music though I think the current school of thought in the interpretetion of Sibelius is that it has to be this "Nordic cool." I do not necessarily agree with this. I see no use in plugging the volcano; I think interpreters like Karajan understood this better than most.

Speaking of the volcanos and the Second Symphony, Pierre Monteux gave a thrilling account of the Second Symphony back in 1959with the London Symphony. Unfortunately it is not easy to find on disc and it is not readily available, for some reason, in the US. I picked up my copy at the fabulously huge HMV Store in Ginza, Tokyo. Anyway, when I heard it for the first time I was stunned how powerful and monumental Monteux makes this music sound. It was nature poetry par excellence. It was as if the earth opened up...like a volcano...and huge chunks of magma and granite were spewing int the air. There was passion...true passion...in this music and I was floored. It's probably my favorite recording of the Second and when I hear other, weaker, more "elegantly shaped" performances, the Monteux recording shows very clearly how useless these wimpy recordings are. Again, that seems to be the current trend in Sibelius interpretation and I hope it goes away soon.


----------



## Tapkaara

kv466 said:


> I'll join! While my first exposure was through radio, the first time I sat down and put in a disc with a piece by Sibelius and sat through and enjoyed it was the F#minor sonatine, op.67 by Glenn Gould...I knew then and there that my favorite pianist couldn't be wrong about one of his favorite composers. Oh, and the sounds were so lovely. I am currently still embarked on a Sibelius journey and hope this fine thread will help to broaden my knowledge of his works.


Welcome to this thread...and to Sibelius!


----------



## Ukko

Tapkaara said:


> [...]
> Speaking of the volcanos and the Second Symphony, Pierre Monteux gave a thrilling account of the Second Symphony back in 1959with the London Symphony. Unfortunately it is not easy to find on disc and it is not readily available, for some reason, in the US. I picked up my copy at the fabulously huge HMV Store in Ginza, Tokyo. Anyway, when I heard it for the first time I was stunned how powerful and monumental Monteux makes this music sound. It was nature poetry par excellence. It was as if the earth opened up...like a volcano...and huge chunks of magma and granite were spewing int the air. There was passion...true passion...in this music and I was floored. It's probably my favorite recording of the Second and when I hear other, weaker, more "elegantly shaped" performances, the Monteux recording shows very clearly how useless these wimpy recordings are. Again, that seems to be the current trend in Sibelius interpretation and I hope it goes away soon.


I don't agree with your 'useless' verdict, But I do agree that Monteux conducted barn burners with some regularity. He was like Kertesz that way, though I don't know if Kertesz recorded Sibelius.

I just remembered that my first Sibelius symphony _set_ was by Colin Davis and the Boston Symphony. I was disappointed in it.


----------



## Tapkaara

Hilltroll72 said:


> I don't agree with your 'useless' verdict, But I do agree that Monteux conducted barn burners with some regularity. He was like Kertesz that way, though I don't know if Kertesz recorded Sibelius.


I have never even heard of Kertesz...hmmm....

Well, perhaps "useless" is an overly strong word, but compared to an interpretation like Monteux's more "refined" readings certainly seem to miss the point of the music.


----------



## GoneBaroque

My introduction to Sibelius was on a recording of the Symphony No. 5 with the London Symphony (I think) conducted by Alexander Gibson, who has awarded the Sibelius Medal some years later. I think the record was issued sometime in the 50's on the RCA label. well, I was hooked and kept adding more. Then when CDs came along I started over again. As Weston said What's not to like?

I tried to join the Sibelius Forum several months ago but never heard back from them. Looking forward to more discussion.


----------



## Oskaar

Tapkaara said:


> I hereby inaugurate the official Tall Classical Sibelius Appreciation Society. Welcome!


Thank you! It suits me well since I am quite active in discovering him right now.


----------



## Oskaar

Introduction to Sibelius? I think I heard valse triste as a kid.


----------



## Oskaar

Oh said:


> Yes it is! And I am consentrating on his first symphony right now, and I love it more and more.


----------



## Tapkaara

GoneBaroque said:


> My introduction to Sibelius was on a recording of the Symphony No. 5 with the London Symphony (I think) conducted by Alexander Gibson, who has awarded the Sibelius Medal some years later. I think the record was issued sometime in the 50's on the RCA label. well, I was hooked and kept adding more. Then when CDs came along I started over again. As Weston said What's not to like?
> 
> I tried to join the Sibelius Forum several months ago but never heard back from them. Looking forward to more discussion.


I am a member of that forum. It's been really slow there for quite a while. I'd say that's it's been virtually inactive for about a year.


----------



## Conor71

My first experience with Sibelius was about 4 years when i bought a Disc of his 4th and 5th Symphonies - I had previously been exploring Beethoven, Bach and Mozart and had been attracted to a box set of his works after following one of their product links for people who bought this also bought this.. and was intruiged about this Composer I had never heard of before.
I remember listening to the opening of the 4th Symphony and finding it very dark and ominous and it sounded modern, compared to what I had been listening to up to that point anyway.
I continued to listen cursorily to the Disc and was struck by the beautiful swan theme from the 5th Symphony at once - this was surely the most beautiful music composed by a Master Composer!.
I bought the Sibelius Box-set afterwards and listened to all the Symphonies and Tone Poems and also to the Violin Concerto - I went through a real phase of Sibelius Obesession where I spent about 3 or 4 months listening to almost nothing but his music.
I consider myself a Sibelian and would rank him among my top 10 Composers, although for a time he held the number 1 spot!


----------



## Oskaar

Tapkaara said:


> I'd say that's it's been virtually inactive for about a year.


 That is a reason to have new and vitalised threads..repeating the subjects if you like. People dont have the threads " up in daylight" anymore.


----------



## TxllxT

Just to make sure that it is not easy to rally behind Sibelius being pagan: it is very very close to the basic idea of fascism, which is not believing anything anymore, no ideas, nothing to make one stand apart from brutal nature. This brutalness is hidden inside 'valse triste', inside Karajan...


----------



## Tapkaara

TxllxT said:


> Just to make sure that it is not easy to rally behind Sibelius being pagan: it is very very close to the basic idea of fascism, which is not believing anything anymore, no ideas, nothing to make one stand apart from brutal nature. This brutalness is hidden inside 'valse triste', inside Karajan...


I disagree that "pagan" describes fascism or a lack of belief in anything. And you cannot believe in fascism and believe nothing...because you believe in fascism!

Pagan could describe nature worship. Sibelius certainly worshipped nature, at least to some degree. Or pagan could describe the realm of the Kalevala, the national epic from whcih Sibelius drew much inspiration. So, if "pagan" describes these things, "pagan" could easily be used to describe the world of Sibelius.

Sibelius himself was not a pagan, but rather, a Christian. Despite his faith (which he more or less kept quite private), he never wrote any music of an explicitly religious nature.


----------



## Oskaar

Of cours describing pagan folk myths dont make Sibelius a pagan! Grieg was not a troll, but he made music out of trolls in "the hall of the mountain king"


----------



## Ukko

Nature is not pagan; nature isn't religion. The Swan of Tuonela may be pre-Christian, and pagan by Christian standards, but the Swan of Tuonela doesn't exist in nature.

Pleasant surroundings in nature are pleasant because we evolved in such surroundings. The taiga can generate feelings of unease in most humans because we _didn't evolve in it_. For the beasties who live there, it's the way the world should be. Some of Sibelius' music (it's special magic) seems to put us in surroundings in which we are intruders. Nothing tangible is raised against us, but something there is, something that is almost visible in the corner of the eye, that does not want us there.

*Boo!*


----------



## Sid James

TxllxT said:


> Just to make sure that it is not easy to rally behind Sibelius being pagan: it is very very close to the basic idea of fascism, which is not believing anything anymore, no ideas, nothing to make one stand apart from brutal nature. This brutalness is hidden inside 'valse triste', inside Karajan...


I think you may be complicating things. It is true that Sibelius was pretty popular and often played in Nazi Germany. But then again, Hitler's favourite living composer was Franz Lehar, composer of Viennese operettas. His music has little to do with Nazi ideology (or paganism, for that matter), despite Hitler loving it (Lehar even re-dedicated the overture to _The Merry Widow _to the Fuhrer, apparently to save his Jewish wife from being sent to the camps, it worked). The Nazis just twisted & turned music to suit their ideology. They destroyed Mendelssohn's monument in Liepzig, banned his music, but the music by others of Jewish ancestry, like the Strauss waltz dynasty, went unscathed. Double standards, and it had little to do with anything really, it was quite arbitary as far as I can gather, not pagan or nature focussed or whatever...


----------



## Tapkaara

Hilltroll72 said:


> Nature is not pagan; nature isn't religion. The Swan of Tuonela may be pre-Christian, and pagan by Christian standards, but the Swan of Tuonela doesn't exist in nature.


I do not want to derail the thread by arguing minor points, but...

True, nature is not pagan. The worship of it is. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. do not specifically worship nature. Pagans do. Pre-Christian peoples in Finland did. And they also worshiped their own set of gods.

The Swan of Tuonela is not a real swan but a character in the Kalevala, the Pre-Christian myths of the early Finns.


----------



## TxllxT

I do not want to stigmatise Sibelius at all. But words like 'nature' or 'religion' still are so safe, so rationally embalmed, that one cannot breath in it anymore. Sibelius' music breaks such graves open and de-mummifies the mummies of rationalism: this is not without risk. Interpretors of Sibelius' music like Karajan understand these underlying intentions, many other conductors just play notes...


----------



## clavichorder

I'm going to hear his 2nd symphony live this weekend!


----------



## Tapkaara

clavichorder said:


> I'm going to hear his 2nd symphony live this weekend!


Really, how lucky? Who are the performers?


----------



## clavichorder

Tapkaara said:


> Really, how lucky? Who are the performers?


Seattle Symphony Orchestra, Robert Spano is the conductor.


----------



## Tapkaara

clavichorder said:


> Seattle Symphony Orchestra, Robert Spano is the conductor.


Spano is half Finnish! He is fairly well known as a Sibelius conductor. His recording of Kullervo on Telarc from a few years back (with the Atlanta Symphony) was very well reviewed.

I have not heard any other of his Sibelius performances aside from Kullervo, so I'll be most interested to hear how this performance comes off. Can you promise a concert review?


----------



## clavichorder

@ Tapkaara

You can expect a review from me in the latest concerts thread!


----------



## Tapkaara

I love each of Sibelius's symphonies. It's truly hard for me to put them in any order of preference, and I would never really attempt to do so. For years, the 2nd was my absolute favorite but the 5th now holds that position. The 1st Symphony has become, I think my second favorite.

Members of the Society, I pose the following question: What is your opinion of this 1st Symphony and why do you think it is one of the least discussed of Sibelius's mighty seven?


----------



## Manxfeeder

Hey, sign me up also! I don't have time to answer your latest question, but I'll be reading with interest.


----------



## Oskaar

Tapkaara said:


> What is your opinion of this 1st Symphony and why do you think it is one of the least discussed of Sibelius's mighty seven?


I have only heard the first. And I love it!


----------



## Tapkaara

Manxfeeder said:


> Hey, sign me up also! I don't have time to answer your latest question, but I'll be reading with interest.


Welcome. To join you must give an oath of fidelity to Lemminkäinen. Just kidding...


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tapkaara said:


> Welcome. To join you must give an oath of fidelity to Lemminkäinen. Just kidding...


Sorry; I don't swear to anything I can't pronounce.


----------



## Tapkaara

Manxfeeder said:


> Sorry; I don't swear to anything I can't pronounce.


Finnish can be a little tricky, that is for sure.


----------



## Oskaar

Tapkaara said:


> Finnish can be a little tricky, that is for sure.


35 casus I have heard.


----------



## Tapkaara

oskaar said:


> 35 casus I have heard.


No not true at all. It does have, though, 15 cases.


----------



## NightHawk

Tapkaara said:


> I hereby inaugurate the official Tall Classical Sibelius Appreciation Society. Welcome!
> [/I][/B]


My dad was interested in Sibelius and he had the the 2nd symphony and The Swan of Tuonela, I believe that was all. I liked The Swan best as I was really into mythology, but the rest just came along in time. I have all the symphonies, almost all of the tone poems and three recordings of the violin concerto Heifetz, Perlman, and Oistrakh*****.


----------



## Tapkaara

NightHawk said:


> My dad was interested in Sibelius and he had the the 2nd symphony and The Swan of Tuonela, I believe that was all. I liked The Swan best as I was really into mythology, but the rest just came along in time. I have all the symphonies, almost all of the tone poems and three recordings of the violin concerto Heifetz, Perlman, and Oistrakh*****.


Sibelius was one of musics great "mythologists," to be sure! Off the top of my head, only Wagner comes to mind as another leading composer who was so devoted to the mythos of his native land. So, if you are into this sort of thing, Sibelius is surely a good way to go.

Which of the symphonies do you like most?


----------



## tdc

Tapkaara said:


> I love each of Sibelius's symphonies. It's truly hard for me to put them in any order of preference, and I would never really attempt to do so. For years, the 2nd was my absolute favorite but the 5th now holds that position. The 1st Symphony has become, I think my second favorite.
> 
> Members of the Society, I pose the following question: What is your opinion of this 1st Symphony and why do you think it is one of the least discussed of Sibelius's mighty seven?


The 1st and the 4th were the first of his symphonies to really grab me, later I started to prefer the 2nd, but at this time I think the 1st has become my favorite again. I think the 1st and the 7th seem to be his most polarized symphonies - people seem to either really like them or not, whereas the 2nd and 5th seem to be the most all around popular. I certainly disagree with those who feel the 1st is one of the weaker symphonies, while I can't say its objectively better than 2 or 5, I can say it was the first to grab me, and through repeated listens hasn't yet worn out for me, the magic is still there. I think its a brilliant work, and one of his finest.


----------



## Oskaar

I put this post in currently listening. But I thought it may be good to put it here as well
I would be very glad if someone could put remarks on the actual recording, or the work in general, if you have not heard this recording... Or good reccomodations to other recordings. Or just any comment!

*Jean Sibelius*

Work 
*Sibelius: Symphony No.1 in E-, Op.39*

Artists	
Petri Sakari (Conductor), Iceland Symphony Orchestra




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...DMYY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1317126361&sr=8-2

This is an absolutely fabulous symphony! Very good performance, but the sound is not great. I am looking forward to exploring the other six symphonies. But I must go slowly out not to be mad with spotify`s incredible opportunities.


----------



## Tapkaara

tdc said:


> The 1st and the 4th were the first of his symphonies to really grab me, later I started to prefer the 2nd, but at this time I think the 1st has become my favorite again. I think the 1st and the 7th seem to be his most polarized symphonies - people seem to either really like them or not, whereas the 2nd and 5th seem to be the most all around popular. I certainly disagree with those who feel the 1st is one of the weaker symphonies, while I can't say its objectively better than 2 or 5, I can say it was the first to grab me, and through repeated listens hasn't yet worn out for me, the magic is still there. I think its a brilliant work, and one of his finest.


The First took grab of me over time, go I guess my experience is the opposite of yours. When I was younger, I was just so in love with the Second. The First sounded to me like he was trying to make some grand heroic statment but just barely failed. He was finally able to make that statement in the 2nd.

I think I was looking for the wrong things in the First, though, which led me to be let down by it. Once I began to accept it on its own terms, it became much more clear to me what it was about. Really, I do not see it as heroic at all; it's actually a faily dark work and there is even a hint of pessimism in the final movement. It ends rather anti-trimphantly whereas the closing bars of his Second are among the most optimistic in all of music.

For me, the First seems closer to the dark exoticism of works like En Saga or The Wood Nymph. There is no program with the First, but it comes of as "mythic" to me. The language of the Second, on the other hand, is more detached from myth or any other program. You can just feel Sibelius rattling off the chains of his youth getting a little bit closer to the world of the Seventh, although he is still a world away from it.

Sibelius once said a symphony is a confession of one's state of mind at a period in their life. I feel that this is very clear when you compare the First to the Second.


----------



## Tapkaara

oskaar said:


> I put this post in currently listening. But I thought it may be good to put it here as well
> I would be very glad if someone could put remarks on the actual recording, or the work in general, if you have not heard this recording... Or good reccomodations to other recordings. Or just any comment!
> 
> *Jean Sibelius*
> 
> Work
> *Sibelius: Symphony No.1 in E-, Op.39*
> 
> Artists
> Petri Sakari (Conductor), Iceland Symphony Orchestra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...DMYY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1317126361&sr=8-2
> 
> This is an absolutely fabulous symphony! Very good performance, but the sound is not great. I am looking forward to exploring the other six symphonies. But I must go slowly out not to be mad with spotify`s incredible opportunities.


The Sakari cycle on Naxos is failry hit or miss. The best disc in the cycle is the recording of the 6th and 7th. I haven't listened to this particular one in a while (I do have it) but it is not my top recommendation.


----------



## Oskaar

I go back in my listening history about the first... I se that I have given the Vanska/Lahti 9 out of ten... What do you think, Tap about this recording?


----------



## Tapkaara

oskaar said:


> I go back in my listening history about the first... I se that I have given the Vanska/Lahti 9 out of ten... What do you think, Tap about this recording?


Vänskä's Sibelius cycle is undoubtedly one of the best-loved. It's mostly excellent. He takes the tempo of the first movement of the 1st with great speed; it's got to be the swifted reading in modern times. (Compare that to the rather broad approach taken by Berstein, the interpretor of my favorite recording of the First.) I think Vänskä's interpretation is mostly a good one, though I am very much put off by the weak sound of the timpani. The timpani is very important in this work, particularly in the first and third movements. Bernstein is much more comfortable (and authentic) with the percussion. Plus, Berstein is quite a bit more lush in his sound, Vänskä more more dry, perhaps even acidic.


----------



## Oskaar

Thanks, Tap, for the answer! And the version of bernstein and wiener philharmonic is on spotify. I will listen to it soon! maybee tonight.


----------



## Tapkaara

oskaar said:


> Thanks, Tap, for the answer! And the version of bernstein and wiener philharmonic is on spotify. I will listen to it soon! maybee tonight.


THAT is the one!


----------



## Conor71

I've always held the 1st in high regard and its one of my favourites from Sibelius's Cycle - I love that Slow Movement! One of the beautiful things Sibelius penned I think!.
Im not sure why the 1st would be held in less regard than the other Symphonies? - maybe because it is a bit more derivative than the other Symphonies which display quite original structures>
My favourite Symphony has been the 6th for quite a while, followed by the 5th and then probably the 1st


----------



## Ukko

I think the 1st Symphony is a black sheep for Sibelius. His 'groove' started with the 2nd. The 1st doesn't fit in it, so maybe that's why it is less celebrated. Even Mahler's 1st fits the rest of them a bit more.


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

Work 
*Sibelius: Symphony No.1 in E-, Op.39*

Artists

 Leonard Bernstein, Wiener Philharmoniker 




http://www.musicload.ch/leonard-ber...ymphonies-nos-1-2-5-7/musik/boxset/10993960_1

I'm getting more and more fond of the symphony! Absolutely first class performance! It's almost as if Bernstein conjure up something extra. Very good sound. And very good projection of single instruments and instrument groups. Fantastic nerve!










You are righ tap.. This version is something special!


----------



## Tapkaara

Conor71 said:


> I've always held the 1st in high regard and its one of my favourites from Sibelius's Cycle - I love that Slow Movement! One of the beautiful things Sibelius penned I think!.
> Im not sure why the 1st would be held in less regard than the other Symphonies? - maybe because it is a bit more derivative than the other Symphonies which display quite original structures>
> My favourite Symphony has been the 6th for quite a while, followed by the 5th and then probably the 1st


"Derivative" and "Tchaikovsky's 7th" are often used to describe Sibelius's mighty First. These comments are common, and perhaps based in some fact, but we should not forget that there is a great deal of Sibelius in there, too!

I will not deny that there was likely some Tchikovsky influence. As a young man, Sibelius was indeed an admirateur of the Russian giant. Really, though, his First is probably a melting pot of various influences; people often speak of hearing shades of Bruckner and Borodin in this work as well.

But Sibelius's originality and personal trademarks are certainly in there, too. The ostinati in the strings, the stark orchestration, the sforzando brass, the active role of the timpani and fairly tight structure. (Tchaikovsky's symphonies always strike me as more rhapsodic, much like Mahler.)

So, if this work is a mish-mash of Finnish nationalism, Russian wildness and German romanticism...and a general sense of youthful agnst...is it a good mish-mash or bad one?


----------



## mmsbls

I heard the first symphony after I had heard much of Sibelius' music. I have enjoyed it from the first time I listened. For me it is probably my third favorite (after #2 and #7). I was not aware that his first was less discussed than the other symphonies. My copy of Goulding (admittedly published in 1995) shows the first has more recordings than all but 2, 4, and 5. Also Goulding picks the 1st in his starter kit (top 5 Sibelius works). Non of that says much about the quality of the work, but it suggests that the 1st is not an afterthought for Sibelius' symphonies. I'd be interested to know if most people feel that the first really is the least discussed.


----------



## Tapkaara

Here is a live video segment of the Bernstein performance that is, in my humble estimation, the best on record. It's my favorite, anyway.

Note the fairly deliberate tempi throughout. I remember put off by this the first time. This was toward the end of Lenny's career when he became know for taking slower tempi on just about everything he conducted. I can tell you, though, when I listened a second time I was prepared for the broad pacing so I was able to focus more on everything else and I discovered just how stupendous this really was...


----------



## Conor71

Tapkaara said:


> So, if this work is a mish-mash of Finnish nationalism, Russian wildness and German romanticism...and a general sense of youthful agnst...is it a good mish-mash or bad one?


I've always thought the 1st worked very well - It has a lot of optimism in it despite the sense of foreboding which permeates the work!.


----------



## Tapkaara

Conor71 said:


> I've always thought the 1st worked very well - It has a lot of optimism in it despite the sense of foreboding which permeates the work!.


There are moments of optimism. The big romantic tune of the first movement is not "dark music" But I find almost everything else about the symphony to be a product of the shadows. And the whole thing ends almost in a whimper with those two pizzicato notes that seem to just say "oh well" after the orchestra gets whipped into a rather good frenzy. Not a happy ending.


----------



## Tapkaara

***duplicate post***


----------



## Tapkaara

Sibelius and Stravinsky. These names belong to two of the greatest composers of the 20th century.

"Stillborn affectations" is how Sibelius once described the musical works of Stravinsky. I tried doing a search to find quotes by Stravinsky about Sibelius but could find none right away. Perhaps this is quite telling; that Stravinsky felt he never needed to talk about the Finnish master in any capacity probably speaks for itself.

Despite the obvious gulf that separates the worlds of these to musical giants, there is at least one tangible connection. In 1963, Stravinsky was awarded the Wihuri-Sibelius prize. This award was started in Finland (a true music-loving nation) to acknowledge the accomplishments of composer who have contributed significantly to international culture. (Sibelius, by the way, was the first recipient in 1953, when the prize first started.)

This award was the impetus for Stravinsky to take a lesser-known work by Sibelius, the Cazonetta for strings, which is itself an extract from the music to the play Kuolema (Death). The infinitely more famous Valse triste is also extracted from this play.

Stravinsky's arrangement is basically an octet including four horns, two clarinets, harp and double bass.

Here are Sibelius's original and Stravinsky's arrangement side-by-side. What do you think?


----------



## GoneBaroque

Thank you Tapkaara. The tribute of one Giant to another. Both of these masterful works deserve to be much better known.

Incidentally, for what it may be worth I regard Shostakovich as the third towering "S" of the 20th Century.


----------



## Tapkaara

GoneBaroque said:


> Thank you Tapkaara. The tribute of one Giant to another. Both of these masterful works deserve to be much better known.
> 
> Incidentally, for what it may be worth I regard Shostakovich as the third towering "S" of the 20th Century.


Thanks for listening to them! I agree, these works should be heard much more. I prefer Canzonetta to Valse triste any day!


----------



## Aramis

Never heard that Canzonetta before. Thanks for posting. As for the arrangement, I feel that giving the melody to wind instrument is good idea. Stravinsky gave it to clarinets - personally I would prefer to hear orchestral version with oboe having most of the melodic material.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tapkaara said:


> Here is a live video segment of the Bernstein performance that is, in my humble estimation, the best on record. It's my favorite, anyway.


You're right; his beginning deliberate tempo does tend to highlight the intensity of the contrasting emotions in the piece.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tapkaara said:


> Here are Sibelius's original and Stravinsky's arrangement side-by-side. What do you think?


This is my first hearing of the piece. On first blush, I prefer Stravinsky's version; I like its color, and it's not as dour. On the down side, it takes away from that "Sibelius" feeling I get from the original in the same way that Debussy's arrangement of Satie's Gymnopedie No. 1 is more Debussy than Satie.


----------



## Tapkaara

Stravinsky's arrangement is definitely Stravinsky. From the odd choice of instruments to the honky and slightly strange timbres he produces with those instruments. The melody, though, is still so Sibelius, no matter what.

Sibelius's original is not "dour," but more elegant, I would say. Stravinsky adds a bit or ironic sarcasm with his instrumentation. But honestly, both are beautiful in their own ways.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tapkaara said:


> Sibelius's original is not "dour," but more elegant, I would say.


Yeah, I was struggling for an adjective. Dour was all I could come up with, but I knew I'd get called on it


----------



## Tapkaara

Manxfeeder said:


> Yeah, I was struggling for an adjective. Dour was all I could come up with, but I knew I'd get called on it


Well, I am sure you are not the first to use that word when describing Sibelius. In his later years the (mis)conception was that he himself was cold, dour man with little humor. The opposite is true. I'll bet the reason he often looked less-than-warm in his photographs is very simple...he did not like having his picture taken. Something I can relate to!


----------



## Llyranor

Tapkaara said:


> _*Do you remember your first experience listening to Sibelius? How did you react?*_[/I][/B]


Easy. About a year ago. I attended a local concert. It featured a few pieces, the main event (for which I signed up for) being Dvorak's 8th Symphony, a composition I'm really fond of. Once I got there, I realized there was also going to be the performance of a violin concerto by some guy named Sibelius (whose music I had never heard before), to be played by a 16-yr old kid, winner of some local competition. Well, alright, I thought - could be interesting.

From the first notes of the solo violin, I was completely enthralled by the performance. This blew my mind. I may be getting hyperbolic here, but it really made me question my entire life. Here I am, late 20's, actually doing pretty good for myself, and then this 16-yr-old comes and almost invalidates my existence.

Now, I had zero musical background prior to that, and had only gotten 'into' classical a few months before. As of today, I'm a few months into private violin lessons. I may be old or whatever, but if I don't try it, I'll always have doubts about it. Has my life changed for the better? I guess so.

I think I have 9 different versions of Sibelius' VC on various CD's now 

Ever since, I've really gotten into his symphonies (he is my favorite symphonist - I'd even say he is my favorite composer), and I really enjoy his Voces Intimae string quartet. That being said, I actually haven't heard much else from him. From someone whom I claim to be my favorite composer, I really need to explore his works more. Any recommendations for someone looking into branching out?


----------



## Oskaar

The canzonetta is amazing!


----------



## Tapkaara

Llyranor said:


> Easy. About a year ago. I attended a local concert. It featured a few pieces, the main event (for which I signed up for) being Dvorak's 8th Symphony, a composition I'm really fond of. Once I got there, I realized there was also going to be the performance of a violin concerto by some guy named Sibelius (whose music I had never heard before), to be played by a 16-yr old kid, winner of some local competition. Well, alright, I thought - could be interesting.
> 
> From the first notes of the solo violin, I was completely enthralled by the performance. This blew my mind. I may be getting hyperbolic here, but it really made me question my entire life. Here I am, late 20's, actually doing pretty good for myself, and then this 16-yr-old comes and almost invalidates my existence.
> 
> Now, I had zero musical background prior to that, and had only gotten 'into' classical a few months before. As of today, I'm a few months into private violin lessons. I may be old or whatever, but if I don't try it, I'll always have doubts about it. Has my life changed for the better? I guess so.
> 
> I think I have 9 different versions of Sibelius' VC on various CD's now
> 
> Ever since, I've really gotten into his symphonies (he is my favorite symphonist - I'd even say he is my favorite composer), and I really enjoy his Voces Intimae string quartet. That being said, I actually haven't heard much else from him. From someone whom I claim to be my favorite composer, I really need to explore his works more. Any recommendations for someone looking into branching out?


I think the Violin Concerto is likely the "gateway to Sibelius" for many. After all, it has often been said that it was the most performed 20th century violin concerto (whether or not this is true I don't know...I would like to think so!), thus it is likely most classical music fans have heard it at some point.

Have you heard the original version of the concerto there is only ONE recording on the Swedish label BIS. It has my highest recommendation; I prefer the original (though it is not as concise) to the ultimate revised version.

Well, if you are looking to know your (possible) favorite composer better, I say that you should hot up the tone poems since you are already acquainted with the symphonies and concerto. And may I say, I am impressed that you have heard Voces intimae!

Look for En Saga, The Four Lemminkainen Legends, Pohjola's Daugher, Night Ride and Sunrise, the Oceanides and Tapiola to start. These all have been recorded numerous times and you'll easily be able to order them from Amazon. Oh, and look for the rare Wood Nymph tone poem. Sibelian _sturm und drang_ at its finest!


----------



## Llyranor

Yes, I have heard the original version of the VC (I think it may have been you who pointed out its existence in another thread, which I hurriedly bought). I quite like it, and sometimes it catches me by surprise by how different it is to the revised. Ultimately, though, I prefer the revised. 

I think I should have some tone poems lying around in the CD's for the symphony sets I have (I have Davis/Boston and Segerstam). I should dig them up!


----------



## Ukko

Llyranor said:


> [...]
> I think I should have some tone poems lying around in the CD's for the symphony sets I have (I have Davis/Boston and Segerstam). I should dig them up!


The Segerstam is good, in the detail oriented approach; the climaxes may be underplayed. The Davis/Boston falls flat, dampened my enthusiasm for S for awhile.


----------



## Tapkaara

Hilltroll72 said:


> The Segerstam is good, in the detail oriented approach; the climaxes may be underplayed. The Davis/Boston falls flat, dampened my enthusiasm for S for awhile.


Bravo to you regarding the Davis/Boston cycle.

This cycle for some strange reason is often listed among the greatest of all Sibelius symphony cycles and I have never been able to understand why. I have certainly encountered folks who claim it is the best.

Davis's approach is, well, restrained. It is a scholarly approach and attention to detail is all there, but what's it worth when the end result lacks visceral excitement? There is much more to performance and interpretation than playing all of the right notes.

I see the Davis cycle as, perhaps, the precursor to the modern "cool" and "lean" approach to Sibelius interpretation that is somewhat standard these days. Compare any Davis recording from that cycle to, say, Karajan, Stokowski, Monteux, Beecham, Barbirolli, etc., and you'll see what I mean; the earlier half of the 20th century really seemed to be doing something quite different. And keep in mind, these interpreters where playing Sibelius when the composer was still alive...and it is known Sibelius communicated rather actively with conductors that played his works. Can you see where I am going with this?

Interestingly, Colin Davis's third and most recent Sibelius cycle is quite a bit better than his first one in the late 1970s. They are on the LSO Live label with...wait for it...the London Symphony Orchestra. Davis seems to come alive with these works for once and the playing under his baton is often quite thrilling; the music just sounds mightier than it did with his Boston forces. One can only wonder why he decided to change up his interpretation of these scores. With age comes wisdom, maybe?


----------



## opus55

I think it was after I graduated college when I first heard Sibelius symphonies 1 and 2 (it was a 2-disc set that included VC with Francescatti). At the time I liked both Sibelius 1 and 2 but I was more into Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff back then. It was the only Sibelius recording I had for more than a decade while I didn't listen to classical music all that much.

I became a more dedicated classical music fan in last few years and started building my CD collection. In the beginning of this year, I purchased Neeme Jarvi/Gothenburg Symphony's recording of Sibelius symphonies and tone poems. I've been listening to this recording many many times. It become a reason to look forward to winter season.

My favorite is Symphony No. 3 then probably 5 and 2. The 3rd symphony totally captivates me like no other romantic/post-romantic symphony does. I'd like to get other recordings of 3rd soon.

Maybe other Sibelius experts can recommend me my next complete Sibelius symphonies set based on my taste (3rd symphony being my current favorite in Jarvi's cycle). Is Jarvi's interpretation of Sibelius considered one of the modern styles?


----------



## Tapkaara

opus55 said:


> I think it was after I graduated college when I heard Sibelius symphonies 1 and 2 (it was a 2-disc set that included VC with Francescatti). At the time I liked both Sibelius 1 and 2 but I was more into Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff back then. It was the only Sibelius recording I had for more than a decade while I didn't listen to classical music all that much.
> 
> I became a more dedicated classical music fan in last few years and started building my CD collection. In the beginning of this year, I purchased Neeme Jarvi/Gothenburg Symphony's recording of Sibelius symphonies and tone poems. I've been listening to this recording many many times. It become a reason to look forward to winter season.
> 
> My favorite is Symphony No. 3 then probably 5 and 2. The 3rd symphony totally captivates me like no other romantic/post-romantic symphony does. I'd like to get other recordings soon.
> 
> Maybe other Sibelius experts can recommend me my next complete Sibelius symphonies set based on my taste (3rd symphony being my current favorite in Jarvi's cycle).


If you like Neeme Jarvi you will probably also like Osmo Vanska. His symphony cycle on BIS is considered one of the best.

It's funny because I cannot fully endorse any one cycle. In other words, no cycle is perfect; I have to pick and choose my favorite recordings of the symphonies from various sets.

A pretty good one that will be easy to find (and cheaper than the Vanska set) would be Vladimir Ashkenazy/Philharmonia. Again, this cycle is by no means perfect but I think it is fairly good across the board with no real individual standouts.

You can also try Karajan, though he did not ever record a complete cycle. And interestingly, he never recorded the Third Symphony. I generally prefer Karajan's recording on EMI to those on Deutsche Grammophon (his EMI recordings have markedly superior sound). Which reminds me, you can find a "complete" cycle on DG, but it's a mixture of recordings by Karajan and Finnish conductor Okko Kamu, which I can also recommend, and it's cheap. Kamu's reading of the Second Symphony is one of the best available.


----------



## opus55

Tapkaara said:


> If you like Neeme Jarvi you will probably also like Osmo Vanska. His symphony cycle on BIS is considered one of the best.


I've heard that recommendation before. I'm most definitely willing to pay the high price for Vanska set now that I am a big Sibelius fan!


----------



## Tapkaara

*Jean Sibelius Kodissaan - Jean Sibelius at Home*

It is always fascinating to see film footage of famous composers. Luckily for the members of this society, there is film footage of Sibelius that we can enjoy instantly in the comfort of our own homes courtesy of the internet.

Here is the link to YLE, Finland's state broadcaster. They have a short film called (in Finnish) Jean Sibelius Kodissaan. That's "Jean Sibelius at Home" for those not well versed in Finnish!

Here we see scenes of the master at his home just north of Helsinki near Lake Tuusula. We see him with his wife and children and, most interestingly, writing music and playing the piano.

The bulk of the footage was shot in 1927 and edited for this short film in 1945. In fact, the opening shots of Sibelius and his wife are from 1945 and then we go back to 1927. (We can watch Sibelius age in reverse!)

It is interesting to note that his last major work, Tapiola, had been written the year prior in 1926. So, here we see Sibelius in the first year of his "Great Silence." This would have been when he was working on the 8th Symphony, as well...

Also note when he is sitting as his desk writing. Note the very visible tremor in his right hand. This was due, it is thought, to his alcoholism. He had to drink whiskey when he wrote to steady his hand.

Enjoy!

http://www.yle.fi/elavaarkisto/?s=s&g=8&ag=47&t=117&a=8909


----------



## samurai

@ Tap, I've been thinking of buying the Maurice Abravanel Sibelius cycle with the Utah Symphony. Any advice or opinions on that possible purchase?


----------



## Tapkaara

samurai said:


> @ Tap, I've been thinking of buying the Maurice Abravanel Sibelius cycle with the Utah Symphony. Any advice or opinions on that possible purchase?


I must admit that I am completely unfamiliar with this cycle. Now you have ME intrigued!


----------



## Manxfeeder

opus55 said:


> I've heard that recommendation before. I'm most definitely willing to pay the high price for Vanska set now that I am a big Sibelius fan!


Just FYI, you can download the Vanska set for just $7.99. It's one of Amazon's gifts to the world.

http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Lemmink%C3%A4inen-Concerto/dp/B004Z4ZN4A/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1321713722&sr=8-2


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tapkaara said:


> Interestingly, Colin Davis's third and most recent Sibelius cycle is quite a bit better than his first one in the late 1970s. They are on the LSO Live label with...wait for it...the London Symphony Orchestra.


I'm glad you brought that up. I've seen Davis criticized here many times and haven't understood it, because I've only heard the LSO cycle. So they've been talking about Davis' _Boston_ cycle.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tapkaara said:


> So, here we see Sibelius in the first year of his "Great Silence." This would have been when he was working on the 8th Symphony, as well...


Wow. If that's the 8th, that's a rare glimpse of what might have been.


----------



## kv466

I keep going, Taapi...and I keep a likin'!


----------



## Tapkaara

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm glad you brought that up. I've seen Davis criticized here many times and haven't understood it, because I've only heard the LSO cycle. So they've been talking about Davis' _Boston_ cycle.


Davis has recorded three cycles. The first on with Boston is considered classic, even definitive by so many. His second one with the London Symphony is widely considered awful. (The two extremes here have always been very interesting to me.)

Then we get to his THIRD cycle and it seems to get the most universal approval. Including mine. The only real drawback s the recording of the 5th. It's a fine performance, but you can hear Sir Colin humming!


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tapkaara said:


> Then we get to his THIRD cycle and it seems to get the most universal approval. Including mine. The only real drawback s the recording of the 5th. It's a fine performance, but you can hear Sir Colin humming!


Yup, that's the one I have. But don't listen to it in a car parked in a dark place; the humming will creep you out.


----------



## tdc

Tapkaara said:


> but you can hear Sir Colin humming!


That to me is absolutely atrocious. I'll never understand what compels an individual to believe their humming can add anything good to a music recording (unless its in the score). Seems to me unprofessional, at best it doesn't sound good, at worst its incredibly creepy and ruins a performance.


----------



## Aramis

tdc said:


> (unless its in the score)


Is it in any score?


----------



## opus55

Manxfeeder said:


> Just FYI, you can download the Vanska set for just $7.99. It's one of Amazon's gifts to the world.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Lemmink%C3%A4inen-Concerto/dp/B004Z4ZN4A/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1321713722&sr=8-2


What an awesome deal but I always try to buy CDs - I'm old school


----------



## Tapkaara

opus55 said:


> What an awesome deal but I always try to buy CDs - I'm old school


I also like physical CDs. I doubt that I can ever jump on the downloading/MP3 bandwagon.

Speaking of Vanska's symphony cycle on BIS, that Swedish label is now undertaking its third cycle with Okko Kamu and Sinfonia Lahti. I wonder how THAT complete cycle will ultimately stack up to Vanska's...


----------



## Manxfeeder

opus55 said:


> What an awesome deal but I always try to buy CDs - I'm old school


I'm pretty much that way also. I downloaded these and burned them to disk.


----------



## opus55

Besides the Vanska cycle, I'd also like to hear the original version of violin concerto. I'm just trying to wait some time before buying another box set. My wife complained little bit after I got the Shostakovich Haitink set couple weeks ago lol


----------



## Tapkaara

opus55 said:


> Besides the Vanska cycle, I'd also like to hear the original version of violin concerto. I'm just trying to wait some time before buying another box set. My wife complained little bit after I got the Shostakovich Haitink set couple weeks ago lol


Well, you do not have to purchase any box sets to get the original version of the concerto. You can buy it as a single disc. And, on the very same disc, you also get the revised and final version. Two versions for the price of one...the deal of the decade!

I love both versions though I do prefer the original. Its structure is not as tight as the revision but the extra amount of music is truly great. The original also seems a tad bit darker than the revised version and that appeals to my morose personality.

By the way, for the revised version, I recommend the recording on Naxos with the Norwegian Henning Kraggerud as the soloist. I was lucky to see Kraggerud perform the concerto with the Lahti Symphony in Lahti in 2009. After the performance he came into the audience to watch the rest of the program before the intermission. He sat right behind me. At the intermission I swiftly turned around and told him how much I liked his Naxos recording. He seemed genuinely humbled by by compliments. I asked him to sign my program, which he did.


----------



## GoneBaroque

I agree with Tapkaara that the original version of the concerto is preferable. It is a recording well worth having.


----------



## Ukko

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm pretty much that way also. I downloaded these and burned them to disk.


That is also my procedure. Just purchased and downloaded the Vänskä. Now I have to decide to make one mp3 DVD or several CDs - or make both.


----------



## TxllxT

Tapkaara said:


> Well, you do not have to purchase any box sets to get the original version of the concerto. You can buy it as a single disc. And, on the very same disc, you also get the revised and final version. Two versions for the price of one...the deal of the decade!
> 
> I love both versions though I do prefer the original. Its structure is not as tight as the revision but the extra amount of music is truly great. The original also seems a tad bit darker than the revised version and that appeals to my morose personality.
> 
> By the way, for the revised version, I recommend the recording on Naxos with the Norwegian Henning Kraggerud as the soloist. I was lucky to see Kraggerud perform the concerto with the Lahti Symphony in Lahti in 2009. After the performance he came into the audience to watch the rest of the program before the intermission. He sat right behind me. At the intermission I swiftly turned around and told him how much I liked his Naxos recording. He seemed genuinely humbled by by compliments. I asked him to sign my program, which he did.












This is my box with a complete Tempest; I got it about 20 years ago secondhand for less than 5 guilders. Nice interpretations, but Oistrakh / Ormandy have a stronger earthly grumble in the orchestra.


----------



## Tapkaara

TxllxT said:


> This is my box with a complete Tempest; I got it about 20 years ago secondhand for less than 5 guilders. Nice interpretations, but Oistrakh / Ormandy have a stronger earthly grumble in the orchestra.


Well, this is a BIS recording with Vanska and Lahti from the earlier days of their celebrated collaboration. I do not think that Vanska and company were known for their "earthy grumblings;" Vanska is, more or less, or the modern school of "cool" and "lean" interpretation of Sibelius. I am not normally a fan of this style of interpretation, but Vanska does it the best.

Having said that though, Vanska's reading of the Wood Nymph is the best of the three recordings available. It's the best recorded and has the most epic sweep. So he can get a little wilder when he needs to.


----------



## Llyranor

What do you guys think of this Sibelius Edition?. Apparently it's a complete set, including earlier versions of some of his compositions. I'm asking because it seems to be on sale.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/listPage.jsp?list_id=1197&page_size=100


----------



## Tapkaara

*Are we hearing the 8th?*

Recently, a Finnish journalist found some sketches by Sibelius, fragments of some unnamed and unknown orchestral score. Immediately, talk began to swirl around that fragments of the 8th Symphony have been found.

The segments have been performed and recorded and you can hear them in the following video. The first half or so is an interview...just sit through it and then a mysterious music begins.

http://www.hs.fi/kulttuuri/Soiko+HSfin+videolla+Sibeliuksen+kadonnut+sinfonia/a1305548269034

But is this parts of the 8th we are hearing? The short answer is: who knows?

There is NOTHING on the handwritten manuscripts that identifies the work; there are no titles. However, judging by the style of this music, it almost certainly comes from his later period, no earlier than the music for the Tempest and Tapiola, one owuld think.

Whether or not it is the 8th may never be truly known, but at the very least, we catch an ultra-rare glimpse into how his music thought was moving along...had he been able to bring additional compositions to fruition.


----------



## Ukko

Llyranor said:


> What do you guys think of this Sibelius Edition?. Apparently it's a complete set, including earlier versions of some of his compositions. I'm asking because it seems to be on sale.
> 
> http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/listPage.jsp?list_id=1197&page_size=100


Assuming you aren't asking about the 'misc. works', which is not 'a complete set', you must be referring to the Vänskä set. we've pretty well covered that one.


----------



## Llyranor

Oh, I was asking about the complete collection rather than just the symphonies.


----------



## Tapkaara

Did everyone miss my post (see above) about the orchestral sketches that were recently performed? Some believe it could be fragment of the 8th Symphony. What you you guys think of the sketches?


----------



## presto

I’ve loved Sibelius since I purchased an LP (remember those things!) back in the 1970’s of the second symphony. 
I was utterly mesmerized with it’s huge waves of brass and that glorious tune.
I know all the symphonies now and each one has it’s own character and I find it impossible to say which is my favorite. 
I didn’t know about theses sketches, if they could be brought to life as well as Anthony Payne’s did when he reconstruction Elgar’s 3rd symphony it could be very exciting.


----------



## Tapkaara

presto said:


> I've loved Sibelius since I purchased an LP (remember those things!) back in the 1970's of the second symphony.
> I was utterly mesmerized with it's huge waves of brass and that glorious tune.
> I know all the symphonies now and each one has it's own character and I find it impossible to say which is my favorite.
> I didn't know about theses sketches, if they could be brought to life as well as Anthony Payne's did when he reconstruction Elgar's 3rd symphony it could be very exciting.


I hardly think there is enough material to patch this together. And besides, it's not even for sure that these fragments are from the 8th. They are certainly Sibelius, and certainly from the time when he was working on the lost work, however.

What is more, if an attempt was made to "reconstruct" this as Sibelius's 8th, I would find that to be most distasteful, even offensive. I have no issue with these fragments being performed as-is, though. They are fascinating.


----------



## clavichorder

Tappy, I didn't give you my Sibelius 2nd review from a week ago.

I went to the concert last weekend. I had great difficulty getting in the mood for the first half of the program, which wasn't Sibelius, but Poulenc and Rachmaninoff. I knew they were great pieces, but I just wasn't in the mood. So why did I like the Sibelius so much?!? I had a great time the second half, and I felt like I was watching a movie towards the end. I can't recall specific details, but I just want to let you know that I had a very positive experience with Sibelius, my impression was that he is incredibly organic, seamless, it was quite a ride. Since it was my first experience, I can't tell how good the performance was, but my friend who was there with me really enjoyed it and he knows the piece.


----------



## clavichorder

Edit, wrong thread.


----------



## Tapkaara

clavichorder said:


> Tappy, I didn't give you my Sibelius 2nd review from a week ago.
> 
> I went to the concert last weekend. I had great difficulty getting in the mood for the first half of the program, which wasn't Sibelius, but Poulenc and Rachmaninoff. I knew they were great pieces, but I just wasn't in the mood. So why did I like the Sibelius so much?!? I had a great time the second half, and I felt like I was watching a movie towards the end. I can't recall specific details, but I just want to let you know that I had a very positive experience with Sibelius, my impression was that he is incredibly organic, seamless, it was quite a ride. Since it was my first experience, I can't tell how good the performance was, but my friend who was there with me really enjoyed it and he knows the piece.


Awesome!

I heard our local San Diego Symphony perform the 2nd in early 2010. it was a decent performance; the orchestra seemed more assured in the first tow movements, perhaps, but they seemed to lose the cohesion and passion as the symphony wore on. Plus there was some sloppiness in the brass. I was not bowled over but, then again, I had recently heard the Sinfonia Lahti perform the same work a few months prior in Finland. I guess I was spoiled by the experience.

I am happy that you picked up on the cohesion of the work. Sibelius does a good job of writing such a large-scale work and keeping it "tight."


----------



## Chrythes

Thank you for this thread Tapkaara, it's always a pleasure to learn about new composers, especially when they are introduced with such dedication.
So far i've listened to his 2,1 Symphonies and the Violin Concerto.
All are wonderful! I was surprised by the 4th Movement of his 2nd Symphony, as I am certain i've hard it before, maybe even when i was a child. It's always a pleasure to discover pieces and movements that i've once heard in the far past, they seem to have a nostalgic feeling.

Oh, and the part from 14:00 to 14:30 on the Bernstein version , 2nd Symphony, 4th movement is celestial in its feeling. The violins play the melody in such delicate, subtle way. They feel like a divine thread, holding everything in the most gentle, yet expressive way!


----------



## Tapkaara

Chrythes said:


> Thank you for this thread Tapkaara, it's always a pleasure to learn about new composers, especially when they are introduced with such dedication.
> So far i've listened to his 2,1 Symphonies and the Violin Concerto.
> All are wonderful! I was surprised by the 4th Movement of his 2nd Symphony, as I am certain i've hard it before, maybe even when i was a child. It's always a pleasure to discover pieces and movements that i've once heard in the far past, they seem to have a nostalgic feeling.
> 
> Oh, and the part from 14:00 to 14:30 on the Bernstein version , 2nd Symphony, 4th movement is celestial in its feeling. The violins play the melody in such delicate, subtle way. They feel like a divine thread, holding everything in the most gentle, yet expressive way!


As humans, we should all be dedicated to something, or indeed, many things. But do not just like it, be dedicated, be devoted to it. Suck the juice out of it. Life is much more fulfilling when you plunge in instead if cautiously wade. Sibelius is surely one of the things I am most dedicated to in my life. I am not lying when I say I could not imagine my life without his music.

Which Bernstein recording did you hear? With New York or Vienna?


----------



## Chrythes

I wish i was like that, most of the time i think that Classical music is more of an escape mechanism for me rather than a devotion.
With the Vienna Phil. It was discussed a few pages ago, I'll certainly buy it when i'll have the money, but until then i'll satisfy with spotify.


----------



## Tapkaara

Chrythes said:


> I wish i was like that, most of the time i think that Classical music is more of an escape mechanism for me rather than a devotion.
> With the Vienna Phil. It was discussed a few pages ago, I'll certainly buy it when i'll have the money, but until then i'll satisfy with spotify.


I find that Bernstein is excellent in the 1st Symphony, but I have a harder time with him in the other ones. I do not consider Bernstein to be a great Sibelian. Perhaps that's wht Lenny does so well in the 1st, though, as it is arguably Sibelius's most "conventional" symphony. Once we get to the 2nd, we are surely on more individualistic ground and I just don't know if Lenny got the idiom.

I really like Monteux in the 2nd Symphony, but that CD is hard to find. Maazel/Vienna has always been another good one and that one is easy to find.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tapkaara said:


> Did everyone miss my post (see above) about the orchestral sketches that were recently performed? Some believe it could be fragment of the 8th Symphony. What you you guys think of the sketches?


For some reason, the video won't play.


----------



## Tapkaara

Manxfeeder said:


> For some reason, the video won't play.


Hmmm, if it not playing perhaps that is why no one has commented on it. It's on YouTube now, so you should all be able to take a listen without worry!


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tapkaara said:


> Hmmm, if it not playing perhaps that is why no one has commented on it. It's on YouTube now, so you should all be able to take a listen without worry!


Hmmm. Definitely Sibelius; I can tell that . But they're definitely taking some leaps by titling it the lost 8th symphony. Still, I like the direction it was heading.

But if I could send a note to the world, it would be, don't reconstruct the 8th symphony! Be happy with what you have and leave it there! If the composer himself wasn't happy with it, trust his judgment!


----------



## samurai

For me, one of the Sibelian highlights has to be the final movement from his *Symphony* *No*.*3 in C, Op.52: *Maurice Abravanel - Symphony No. 3 in C, Op. 52: III. Moderato, Allegro ma non tanto


----------



## Ukko

samurai said:


> For me, one of the Sibelian highlights has to be the final movement from his *Symphony* *No*.*3 in C, Op.52: *Maurice Abravanel - Symphony No. 3 in C, Op. 52: III. Moderato, Allegro ma non tanto


I've been moving my Vänskä download to CD. Yesterday I listened to the last two tone poems in the Lemminkainen Suite (In Tuonela and Journey Home, followed by the 3rd Symphony. What a contrast! The symphony is a lovely work anyway, and after the dark power of the Lemminkainen it was extra effective.


----------



## Tapkaara

Hilltroll72 said:


> I've been moving my Vänskä download to CD. Yesterday I listened to the last two tone poems in the Lemminkainen Suite (In Tuonela and Journey Home, followed by the 3rd Symphony. What a contrast! The symphony is a lovely work anyway, and after the dark power of the Lemminkainen it was extra effective.


Lemminkainen and the 3rd a quite different, certainly! One can really glean how Sibbe's style changes from his early Romantic tendencies to a more austere classicism.


----------



## Couchie

I hate Sibelius and his mom


----------



## lukecubed

I don't remember my first Sibelius experience--probably one of the symphonies on the local classical radio. I enjoyed what I had heard well enough but didn't really *get* Sibelius until I heard the early symphonic poems--_Kullervo_ and _Lemminkäinen_. I know he disowned these later in life but they still get right to the heart of what I love about him.

The critics really savage him from time to time, though. Adorno's comments were pretty disparaging. Reading Lang's _Music in Western Civilization_ right now and he only deigns to mention him as beloved by inferior critics. But Lang hates on so much of what I like, heh, I've learned to roll with it.


----------



## Ukko

lukecubed said:


> [...]
> The critics really savage him from time to time, though. Adorno's comments were pretty disparaging. Reading Lang's _Music in Western Civilization_ right now and he only deigns to mention him as beloved by inferior critics. But Lang hates on so much of what I like, heh, I've learned to roll with it.


Adorno was unhappy with Bartók too. In my opinion that's a double-whammy against him, and I discount everything he wrote.

:devil:


----------



## lukecubed

Hilltroll72 said:


> Adorno was unhappy with Bartók too. In my opinion that's a double-whammy against him, and I discount everything he wrote.


I didn't realize he disliked Bartók. I generally find that critics are more useful when writing about what they enjoy than what they hate...


----------



## Tapkaara

Adorno was a nobody, as far as I am concerned.

Virgil Thompson was also virulently against Sibelius. I've heard some of Thompson's music and, if we are to compare his music to Sibelius's, he had very little room to be so demeaning.


----------



## kv466

So, I've got hundreds of records given to me by a friend who had them given to him. So far, everything I have picked out from the pile (that I didn't give or throw away) has been great and in perfect or unused condition. So I'm going through today and I find one with a plain, white sleeve...and the inner stickers have been ripped off and scribbled over. I immediately went to put it on the turntable. Much to my surprise, it was the d minor violin concerto! Now,...problem is...and this is a real problem for me...I don't know who is playing it. It is actually quite good and I've heard it twice now but have no idea. Nothing on the tube yet so I'm on a search. First, I've gotta identify the suite/piece that is coupled with it. It is short and of one movement. So yeah,...I'm on a Sibelius search at the moment.


----------



## Tapkaara

kv466 said:


> So, I've got hundreds of records given to me by a friend who had them given to him. So far, everything I have picked out from the pile (that I didn't give or throw away) has been great and in perfect or unused condition. So I'm going through today and I find one with a plain, white sleeve...and the inner stickers have been ripped off and scribbled over. I immediately went to put it on the turntable. Much to my surprise, it was the d minor violin concerto! Now,...problem is...and this is a real problem for me...I don't know who is playing it. It is actually quite good and I've heard it twice now but have no idea. Nothing on the tube yet so I'm on a search. First, I've gotta identify the suite/piece that is coupled with it. It is short and of one movement. So yeah,...I'm on a Sibelius search at the moment.


Hmmm, what a great mystery. Perhaps if we can identify the second piece we can figure out the details of this recording.

How would you describe the second short piece on the album?


----------



## kv466

It's about fifteen minutes long...starts with a slow, steady pulse on the violins with almost random but lovely woodwind work coloring it...then it seems like the piece wants to get moving but it repeats that 'start' three times with the same interplay between almost carhorn-like pulses and woodwinds playing behind and around it...then, it finally gets going in a way that has nothing to do with the intro yet is absolutely beautiful. Breathtaking cello singing over an even quicker pulse; this time consisting of string and winds. Finally, about three minutes in there is a sign of brass. Then instruments start start to mimic each other for a few measures...wow, I can go on forever if I try to do it this way.

I'm also remembering at about the eighth minute or so there is a section with only violins and violas creating a very soft sound and then out of nowhere,...a sweet clarinet run. That is pretty much the part that starts off the journey toward the end of the piece. It's kinda trudging along albeit in a very nice manner and then at about 11 or 12 minutes comes a wonderful explosion of sound with heavy brass and woodwind throughout...this ends in a huge cymbal crash with some more clarinet. After some more exploration between orchestra and clarinet, the piece gently fades away.

Wow,...now I'm really starting to like this 'tone poem' or whatever it is...ring any bells, Taaps?


----------



## Tapkaara

kv466 said:


> It's about fifteen minutes long...starts with a slow, steady pulse on the violins with almost random but lovely woodwind work coloring it...then it seems like the piece wants to get moving but it repeats that 'start' three times with the same interplay between almost carhorn-like pulses and woodwinds playing behind and around it...then, it finally gets going in a way that has nothing to do with the intro yet is absolutely beautiful. Breathtaking cello singing over an even quicker pulse; this time consisting of string and winds. Finally, about three minutes in there is a sign of brass. Then instruments start start to mimic each other for a few measures...wow, I can go on forever if I try to do it this way.
> 
> I'm also remembering at about the eighth minute or so there is a section with only violins and violas creating a very soft sound and then out of nowhere,...a sweet clarinet run. That is pretty much the part that starts off the journey toward the end of the piece. It's kinda trudging along albeit in a very nice manner and then at about 11 or 12 minutes comes a wonderful explosion of sound with heavy brass and woodwind throughout...this ends in a huge cymbal crash with some more clarinet. After some more exploration between orchestra and clarinet, the piece gently fades away.
> 
> Wow,...now I'm really starting to like this 'tone poem' or whatever it is...ring any bells, Taaps?


Could it be En Saga?


----------



## kv466

It is!! Thank you, señor. So now I've just gotta go through some recordings and see if I can't pinpoint who it is. Thank you, though. Now at least I know the name of this work I've been dissecting. 

A lot of these records are from the Musical Heritage Society. Also,...it's a huge box I've only partially broken a good hole into so I'm hoping maybe there'll be an empty Sibelius sleeve. I'll let you know either way.


----------



## Tapkaara

kv466 said:


> It is!! Thank you, señor. So now I've just gotta go through some recordings and see if I can't pinpoint who it is. Thank you, though. Now at least I know the name of this work I've been dissecting.
> 
> A lot of these records are from the Musical Heritage Society. Also,...it's a huge box I've only partially broken a good hole into so I'm hoping maybe there'll be an empty Sibelius sleeve. I'll let you know either way.


En Saga is an AMAZING work. It is very early, basically considered to be his second major orchestral work after Kullervo. Its title means, simply, A Story in Swedish. In Finnish it is known as Satu, though the Swedish title is by far more popularly used.

Interestingly, it DOES NOT take inspiration from the Kalevala. In fact, it does not take its inspiration from any known source. Some have tried to suggest that it is based on the Eddas (perhaps because the word "saga" is in the title), but again, there is know basis for this. Sibelius said (and I paraphrase) "Never before have I revealed myself so much as in this piece. En Saga is the expression of a state of mind."

What does En Saga mean to me? Well, I have no specific personal program for it though a I do see images of a black, mist-enshrouded primeval forest. It's a wild piece with lost of exciting rhythms and ostinati. His use of the base drum is particularly exciting, too. Hands down, for me the most exciting recording for this work it the late 1970s reading with Karajan/Berlin on EMI. He allows the base drum to be heard with some measure of impact (as you would actually hear it in a hall) as opposed to other recordings that like to, it seems, recess and hide the damn thing. This is always a huge shame as Sibelius was one of music's great percussionists.

Anyway, let me know what your research turns up. If you need any further help, let me know.

Does anyone else have any comments about En Saga?


----------



## tdc

Tapkaara said:


> Could it be En Saga?


Listening to this for the first time, and my first impression is - lovely, magical and I want a recording of this work.


----------



## Tapkaara

tdc said:


> Listening to this for the first time, and my first impression is - lovely, magical and I want a recording of this work.


I only posted Part I here for the sake of identification. Please be sure to listen to Part II on Youtube for the full work.


----------



## Oskaar

I really love Sibelius from the littled I have heard. Spotify is so huge that I have to restrict myself, and I have not developed sibelius thoroughly jet. I have to take small steps. I am categorizing works in a diary database, and I restrict myself mostly to only listen to what I have categorized.

So far, I have these works from sibelius. ( It is like building up a collection. If you have had access to all the records in the world, you hav had to systemize also! )

Sibelius: Piano Quartet in C-, JS 156
Sibelius: Piano Quartet in D-, JS 157
Sibelius: Piano Quintet in G-, JS 159
Sibelius: Piano Trio in A- ('Hafträsk'), JS 207
Sibelius: Piano Trio in A-, JS 206
Sibelius: Piano Trio in C ('Lovisa Trio'), JS 208
Sibelius: Piano Trio in D- ('Korpo Trio'; unfinished), JS 209

I love them all, even the early works. They shows a different, maybe lighter and lyrical Sibelius.

Sibelius: 2 Earnest Melodies, for violin and orchestra, Op.77
Sibelius: 2 Serenades for Violin and Orchestra, Op.69
Sibelius: Suite caractéristique, for harp and strings, Op.100
Sibelius: Suite for Violin and String Orchestra, Op.117
Sibelius: Suite mignonne, for 2 flutes and strings, Op.98a
Sibelius: Violin Concerto in D-, Op.47

Sibelius: Belshazzar's Feast, Op.51
Sibelius: Everyman (Jokamies; Jedermann), for vocal soloists, chorus, piano, organ and orchestra, Op.83

Sibelius: Symphony No.1 in E-, Op.39

Not listened thorughly to everything, but maybe I should hav a Sibelius night! I post my listening in currently listening, but I shall try to remember to post my Sibelius listening in here as well


----------



## Tapkaara

A have had many, many Sibelius Nights. His music is a great way to pass an evening.


----------



## Oskaar

Tapkaara said:


> A have had many, many Sibelius Nights. His music is a great way to pass an evening.


Yes, I can imagine. I have loads to explore, it will take some time, but I really feel to go depper into him soon

Right now I have qued
Sibelius: 2 Earnest Melodies, for violin and orchestra, Op.77
Sibelius: 2 Serenades for Violin and Orchestra, Op.69
and
Sibelius: Belshazzar's Feast, Op.51

I will post here what I think


----------



## Oskaar

I listened, out of scedule, to Novellette, Op.102. Beutiful little piece!


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

Work 
*Sibelius: 2 Earnest Melodies, for violin and orchestra, Op.77*

Artists	
Yoshiko Arai, Eero Heinonen




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-J-Vi...1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320763409&sr=8-1-fkmr0

Excellent sound on this recording! And especially Yoshiko Arai impresses on violin. Beautiful and full of empathy. The work is very colorful and exciting. Full of small moments and wonderful variations. The pieces are quite different, but good in their own way.










*Sibelius: 2 Serenades for Violin and Orchestra, Op.69
*
Artists	
Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra, Neeme Jarvi, Dong-Suk Kang




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-6-Hu...NJU2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320761628&sr=8-1

Absolutely beautiful serenades! Very melodic, and quite playful, yet profound and dramatic. I thaught no 1 was the ultimate regarding staggering capturing melodics, but the second is even bether! The serenades provide room for virtuoso violin play. Fortunately Dong-Suk Kang is not tempted to overplay, but goes well in line with a dedicated and energetic orchestra. Excellent version.










*Sibelius: Belshazzar's Feast, Op.51*

Adrian Leaper and Slovak Philharmonic Orchestra




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...13M7/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320844224&sr=8-1

Reminds me a bit of Grieg "The hall of the mountain king" Clear oriental inspiration. I'm not so excited about this work, compared to the first two. A little exciting, but it sparkles not, and sometimes it's pretty boring. It's a pretty fremtonende hiss in the background, and the sound is pretty harsh.


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

Work 
*Sibelius: Symphony No.1 in E-, Op.39*

Artists	
Lorin Maazel (Artist), Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...41Z3/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317125828&sr=8-1

I think I have a relationship with the symphony after a while. Very adventurous and varied. It remains to explore the remaining, but with this in mind, promising signs. Very good version! The qualities of the symphony communicated very well. Should like to hear about Tapkaara've heard this version, and what he thinks about it.










Former listening to this symphony, and my rating from 1-10

Orquesta Filarmónica de Gran Canaria
Adrian Leaper - 6

Lahti Symphony Orchestra, Timo Saarenpaa - 7

Adrian Leaper (Artist, Conductor), Jean Sibelius (Composer), Slovak Philharmonic Orchestra - 4

Lahti Symphony Orchestra, Osmo Vanska - 9

Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, Lorin Maazel - 7

Petri Sakari (Conductor), Iceland Symphony Orchestra - 7

Neeme Järvi 
Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra - 8

And this one:
Lorin Maazel (Artist), Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra - 9


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

Work 
*Sibelius: Violin Concerto in D-, Op.47*


Spivakovsky (Artist), London symphony orchestra (Artist), Hannikainen




http://www.amazon.com/Violin-Concer...MLMQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320775536&sr=8-1

Great concert, but maybe not my favorite violin concerto. Bruch's First is a bit better in my opinion. But the concert is absolutely great. Very good performance here. Tossy Spivakovsky plays with great virtuosity and empathy. Good interaction with the orchestra.


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

*Sibelius: Symphony No. 2 in D major, Op. 43*

Artists	
London Philharmonic Orchestra, Paavo Berglund




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-J-Sy...Y5P2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1322835733&sr=8-2

A wonderful and adventurous symphony! Very picturesque, and full of nuances and moods. Very nice and sensitive version, and the sound is pretty good. Bass lines are well presented, and it is important for the whole.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tapkaara said:


> Does anyone else have any comments about En Saga?


I haven't paid much attention to this until now. On first hearing, I'm hearing two themes repeating, but he's doing a lot with them. I like the orchestral color and the ostinati. It's interesting how at the end, it seems to fall asleep, but the introduction returns to wake it up. It has a primal feel to it; maybe that's related to the state of mind he refers to.


----------



## Tapkaara

Manxfeeder said:


> I haven't paid much attention to this until now. On first hearing, I'm hearing two themes repeating, but he's doing a lot with them. I like the orchestral color and the ostinati. It's interesting how at then end, it seems to fall asleep, but the introduction returns to wake it up. It has a primal feel to it; maybe that's related to the state of mind he refers to.


Yes, "primal" is an excellent word to describe En Saga. This is certainly what Sibelius wanted to express with this work: something ancient, something pagan, something primal.

Sibelius, all throughout his career, seemed to be a master of bewildering his audiences. After the smash-hit of Kullervo, Sibelius's colleague, the conductor Robert Kajanus, suggested that Sibelius write write something on a smaller scale. Sibelius produced En Saga as a result. His audience was probably expecting another Kullervo and consequently the premiere of En Saga was not anywhere near as successful.

Sibelius did this all during his career. After the sweeping romantic grandeur of the 2nd Symphony, his audiences were quite taken aback by the pastoral restraint of the 3rd. And then they were again taken for a loop with bizarre, modernistic 4th. I can keep going and going with this.

In this way, I feel Sibelius shares a certain kinship with Stravinsky. These were two composers who constantly reinvented themselves throughout their careers and both often composed works that are "stand alone." Stravinsky never composed anything else that sounded like Le Sacre, for example, just as Sibelius never composed anything else that was quite in the same world as Kullervo. For that matter, is there any other major symphonist who could change/evolve as much as Sibelius from symphony to symphony?


----------



## kv466

Growing on me more and more! Any suggestions on your favorite sonatines op.67, Taapi...anyone? I'm curious to do a little old fashioned listen and compare sessions and since I have them recorded by my favorite pianist I'd like to know what some of ya'll consider to be the best performed of these piece. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Tapkaara

kv466 said:


> Growing on me more and more! Any suggestions on your favorite sonatines op.67, Taapi...anyone? I'm curious to do a little old fashioned listen and compare sessions and since I have them recorded by my favorite pianist I'd like to know what some of ya'll consider to be the best performed of these piece. Thanks in advance.


Ah, Sibelius and the piano. What a fascinating world to wander into.

I can recommend Havard Gimse on Naxos or my friend Folke Grasbeck on BIS. I'd recommend either one for ANY of Sibelius's piano works, though.


----------



## kv466

^^

Sounds good to me, oh my brother...thank you.


----------



## Chrythes

Hey Tapakaara, what would you recommend from his chamber music repertoire?


----------



## Tapkaara

Chrythes said:


> Hey Tapakaara, what would you recommend from his chamber music repertoire?


The issue of chamber music in the world of Sbelius is an interesting one.

If we are to count his piano music as part of his chamber output, we all know he composed piano music throughout his career. His piano works are readily available and again I would recommend Havard Gimse on Naxos and/or Folke Grasbeck on BIS.

Now, what about things like trios and quartets? Sibelius actually has a quite sizable number of chamber works of this style. Interestingly, virtually all of them were written when the composer was a youth before he became "professional." They show very little on the surface of what we would know as "Sibelian" and remind the listener rather frequently of Haydn. They are well written pieces if not overtly remarkable, but again, these are really more products of the composer's youth and should not at all be considered "mature" Sibelius.

I won't create a laundry list here, but I will say BIS has, by far, the most of this material available on their recordings. I recommend the Piano Quintet which is, as one commentator put it, perhaps the closest thing Sibelius ever wrote to a piano concerto.

Also, I recommend Malinconia for violin and piano. It is a very emotional work that should be easy to find. And certainly, do not pass up a chance to hear his only "mature" quartet, Voces intimae. It's some of the composer's most "difficult" music, I think, and it often become rather dark, though the whole piece is pretty shadowy in general. I will not recommend a specific recording but it should be easy to find.


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

*Sibelius: Symphony No. 2 in D major, Op. 43*

Artists	
Ussr State Symphony Orchestra & Vladimir Yesipov




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1322837752&sr=1-1

Great sound, and a very good performance. The symphony is absolutely fantastic. But back to the performance ..... It must be experienced!


----------



## Tapkaara

December 8, 2011 marks the 146th birthday of Jean Sibelius.

I invite the members of the Society to raise high your whisky glasses and shout CHEERS in honor of the Finnish master!


----------



## Oskaar

Tapkaara said:


> December 8, 2011 marks the 146th birthday of Jean Sibelius.
> 
> I invite the members of the Society to raise high your whisky glasses and shout CHEERS in honor of the Finnish master!


Whisky? It have to be Finlandia vodka, dont you think?


----------



## Oskaar

oskaar said:


> *Jean Sibelius*
> 
> *Sibelius: Symphony No. 2 in D major, Op. 43*
> 
> Artists
> Ussr State Symphony Orchestra & Vladimir Yesipov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1322837752&sr=1-1
> 
> Great sound, and a very good performance. The symphony is absolutely fantastic. But back to the performance ..... It must be experienced!


Sorry, wrong cover. It is alike, but of course SIBELIUS instead of Liszt.


----------



## Tapkaara

oskaar said:


> Whisky? It have to be Finlandia vodka, dont you think?


Yes, we could choose Finlandia Vodka, or Koskenkorva vodka for that matter.

But Sibelius's favorite drink was Scotch whisky, so that seems to be the most appropriate drink to me.


----------



## Oskaar

Tapkaara said:


> But Sibelius's favorite drink was Scotch whisky, so that seems to be the most appropriate drink to me.


Then it have to be whisky!


----------



## Manxfeeder

Oh, rats, I missed it. Oh, well, I don't think Sibelius and alcohol were too good of a combination, so I raise a piping cup of herb tea in honor of his unbirthday!


----------



## Tapkaara

Manxfeeder said:


> Oh, rats, I missed it. Oh, well, I don't think Sibelius and alcohol were too good of a combination, so I raise a piping cup of herb tea in honor of his unbirthday!


Well, I do see your point about Sibelius and alcohol not exactly mixing!

Whatever we lift into the air to salute this thoroughly original, endearing and enduring icon of music, let's be sure we do it on this special day!


----------



## Kevin Pearson

Greetings all! I have to say that Sibelius is one of my favorite composers. Probably in my top 5. Unfortunately I have strayed from listening to him as regularly for a while but reading entirely through this thread motivated me to revisit him again. So I have been listening through all his symphonies to start with and then I'll move on to his chamber works. I can tell you that my first exposure to Sibelius was in the early 90s. I bought a box set of Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic showcase pieces called Karajan Festival. It included Finlandia, Valse Triste and Tapiola. I loved that particular disc in the set and played it often. I own quite a few CDs of Sibelius music but have not invested in say multiple copies of his symphonies. Although I do love to hear other interpretations. The symphony set I own is Sir Alexander Gibson and the Royal Scottish Orchestra published by Chandos. I have never been dissatisfied with this version and so have not bothered to add another set to my library. I hate spending money on multiple versions if I am satisfied with what I have. I would rather invest my limited resources in music I do not own already. Anyway, really enjoyed reading everyone's posts.

Kevin


----------



## samurai

@ Kevin, You make some very interesting and excellent points, especially when it comes to duplicating versions of the same works when you are already satisfied with those you have. That can become--if unchecked--both redundant and extremely expensive!


----------



## Kevin Pearson

@Samurai, indeed it could get to be expensive but let me state that I am in no way opposed to someone owning multiple versions of pieces they love. I just cannot afford to do so. Also my thirst for discovering new music prohibits it too. 

Kevin


----------



## samurai

@ Kevin, Brother, You and I are on the same wave-length!


----------



## Tapkaara

Kevin Pearson said:


> Greetings all! I have to say that Sibelius is one of my favorite composers. Probably in my top 5. Unfortunately I have strayed from listening to him as regularly for a while but reading entirely through this thread motivated me to revisit him again. So I have been listening through all his symphonies to start with and then I'll move on to his chamber works. I can tell you that my first exposure to Sibelius was in the early 90s. I bought a box set of Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic showcase pieces called Karajan Festival. It included Finlandia, Valse Triste and Tapiola. I loved that particular disc in the set and played it often. I own quite a few CDs of Sibelius music but have not invested in say multiple copies of his symphonies. Although I do love to hear other interpretations. The symphony set I own is Sir Alexander Gibson and the Royal Scottish Orchestra published by Chandos. I have never been dissatisfied with this version and so have not bothered to add another set to my library. I hate spending money on multiple versions if I am satisfied with what I have. I would rather invest my limited resources in music I do not own already. Anyway, really enjoyed reading everyone's posts.
> 
> Kevin


Welcome, Kevin. I hereby induct you into the Society!

Interesting that you began your Sibelius journey in the early 90s. I probably began mine around 1994 but it did not serious get going until about 1996 or 1997. Karajan was also my first Sibelius conductor, though it was on an old vinyl record. You probably already read all of that.

Seeing that Carl Nielsen is your avatar, I take it you are a fan of Nordic music in general?

And I want to chime in on owning multiple versions of musical works. It may SEEM redundant to have more than one interpretation, but in many ways, it isn't. There can be so many takes on a single piece of music that it really warrants having them, or at least hearing them.

I have to admit I am familiar with the Gibson/Chandos tone poem recordings bu I've not heard any of the related symphonies. In my opinion, the Gibson/Chandos tone poems are not the best recorded (the sound is fairly recessed and murky) and if this is any indication of how the symphonies sound, I'd advise that you try at least one other set of symphonies or at least pick and choose which recordings you'd like to have from whatever set. I think you'd be surprised how different Sibelius sounds in the hands of others.

Sibelius is a composer who really should be heard as clearly as possible. (I guess all composers are!) But there is such layered wonderfulness in his orchestration...various rhythmic patterns stacked beautifully on top of one another (as in the 7th and the Oceanides) that you should definitely upgrade to some more modern recordings. Or at least ones that are better recorded.

I'd suggest Colin Davis's third and most recent cycle of symphonies. Cheaper yet would be Ashkenazy's cycle. And, as far as I am concerned, you can never go wrong with Sibelius and Karajan. Yes, these will be recordings as old (or older) than Gibson, but the sound is better. Not to mention Karajan really could interpret the hell out of his Sibelius!


----------



## Kevin Pearson

Thanks for the welcome Tapkaara! I do indeed enjoy much Nordic music but I like a lot of other things as well. Sibelius and Nielsen just happen to be in my top five favorite composers. I sure wish I could afford that complete collection of Sibelius. I'm not sure how I could justify it t my wife though. Maybe my birthday present?  

As for the Gibson I also own the tone poems and I think the symphonies are a little better recorded. I have never found them to sound dull but bright and full of color. But I do listen to them on a very nice pair of B&W speakers or on my expensive Seinnheiser headphones and that might make a lot of difference.

Has anyone read any decent biographies about Sibelius? I have had a couple in the past, both poorly done, and would really like to get something more fulfilling.

Thanks for the induction to the society! 

Kevin


----------



## Chrythes

Tapkaara said:


> The issue of chamber music in the world of Sbelius is an interesting one.
> 
> If we are to count his piano music as part of his chamber output, we all know he composed piano music throughout his career. His piano works are readily available and again I would recommend Havard Gimse on Naxos and/or Folke Grasbeck on BIS.
> 
> Now, what about things like trios and quartets? Sibelius actually has a quite sizable number of chamber works of this style. Interestingly, virtually all of them were written when the composer was a youth before he became "professional." They show very little on the surface of what we would know as "Sibelian" and remind the listener rather frequently of Haydn. They are well written pieces if not overtly remarkable, but again, these are really more products of the composer's youth and should not at all be considered "mature" Sibelius.
> 
> I won't create a laundry list here, but I will say BIS has, by far, the most of this material available on their recordings. I recommend the Piano Quintet which is, as one commentator put it, perhaps the closest thing Sibelius ever wrote to a piano concerto.
> 
> Also, I recommend Malinconia for violin and piano. It is a very emotional work that should be easy to find. And certainly, do not pass up a chance to hear his only "mature" quartet, Voces intimae. It's some of the composer's most "difficult" music, I think, and it often become rather dark, though the whole piece is pretty shadowy in general. I will not recommend a specific recording but it should be easy to find.


Thank you for such a thorough answer!
So far I've listened to the Voces intimae string quartet and the Piano Quintet, I found the latter more approachable and enjoyable, but as I usually do with pieces that I don't find very interesting at first, I'll give it a few more listening. 
And your talks about Sibelius night inspired me to try it myself this night - as I've started working night shifts, I think it's a good opportunity to listen to some music that I'd like to be more familiar with.


----------



## Tapkaara

Kevin Pearson said:


> Thanks for the welcome Tapkaara! I do indeed enjoy much Nordic music but I like a lot of other things as well. Sibelius and Nielsen just happen to be in my top five favorite composers. I sure wish I could afford that complete collection of Sibelius. I'm not sure how I could justify it t my wife though. Maybe my birthday present?
> 
> As for the Gibson I also own the tone poems and I think the symphonies are a little better recorded. I have never found them to sound dull but bright and full of color. But I do listen to them on a very nice pair of B&W speakers or on my expensive Seinnheiser headphones and that might make a lot of difference.
> 
> Has anyone read any decent biographies about Sibelius? I have had a couple in the past, both poorly done, and would really like to get something more fulfilling.
> 
> Thanks for the induction to the society!
> 
> Kevin


Good bios? Well, there are quite a few of them out there and I personally think they are all very good.

Sibelius by Robert Layton is a well-known text. It's probably one of the more academic ones, though, and I don't know if that would be a turn-off. More discussion is given to analysis of his various works than a biography, though a biography is included and it's still pretty good.

Sibelius by Andrew Barnett is without doubt one of the most thorough biographies. Barnett is the consultant to BIS Records' Sibelius Edition project. There is not as muc pure music analysis but he makes up for that with incredible detail of the composers life and just about everything the composer ever wrote, even the juvenilia and minutia, are given pretty decent mention throughout the text. Some may find the inclusion of little detail after little detail somewhat harrowing, but I guess true Sibelians relish every moment of it.

Jean Sibelius by Guy Rikards is probably my recommendation for a good Sibelius "starter" text. It's not too long, very fluently written and gives you all of the essentials you'd really want from a no-nonsense biography.

Of course there are others, but I'll mention these three for now because the other ones I am thinking of are either out of print, hard to find or I have not read them yet.

Hope it helps, and welcome to the Society!


----------



## Tapkaara

Chrythes said:


> Thank you for such a thorough answer!
> So far I've listened to the Voces intimae string quartet and the Piano Quintet, I found the latter more approachable and enjoyable, but as I usually do with pieces that I don't find very interesting at first, I'll give it a few more listening.
> And your talks about Sibelius night inspired me to try it myself this night - as I've started working night shifts, I think it's a good opportunity to listen to some music that I'd like to be more familiar with.


I know that Bartok is known for his "Night Music," but Sibelius is no slouch either when it comes to nocturnal sounds!

I feel Sibelius is always best heard at night, in the dark. Yes, I do sit in the dark of my music room and turn up the stereo and enjoy the experience. You may find yourslef enjoying this ritual as much as I do...!


----------



## GoneBaroque

Kevin Pearson said:


> Greetings all! I have to say that Sibelius is one of my favorite composers. Probably in my top 5. Unfortunately I have strayed from listening to him as regularly for a while but reading entirely through this thread motivated me to revisit him again. So I have been listening through all his symphonies to start with and then I'll move on to his chamber works. I can tell you that my first exposure to Sibelius was in the early 90s. I bought a box set of Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic showcase pieces called Karajan Festival. It included Finlandia, Valse Triste and Tapiola. I loved that particular disc in the set and played it often. I own quite a few CDs of Sibelius music but have not invested in say multiple copies of his symphonies. Although I do love to hear other interpretations. The symphony set I own is Sir Alexander Gibson and the Royal Scottish Orchestra published by Chandos. I have never been dissatisfied with this version and so have not bothered to add another set to my library. I hate spending money on multiple versions if I am satisfied with what I have. I would rather invest my limited resources in music I do not own already. Anyway, really enjoyed reading everyone's posts.
> 
> Kevin


A warm welcome, Kevin, to the wonderful world of Sibelius from another Nordic fan. My introduction to his music was through an early RCA recording of the Fifth Symphony played by, as I recall, The London Symphony under Sir Alexander Gibson. As you probably know Sir Alex was awarded in 1978 the Sibelius Medal for his services to the composer. I acquired some of the other symphonies by him with the SNO as well as some by another great Sibelius conductor, Sir John Barbirolli. I with the CD era later expanded to other interpreters, particularly Herbert Blomstedt, Paavo Berglund and the Jarvi's (father and son).


----------



## Oskaar

Welcome!


----------



## Kevin Pearson

Thanks for the welcomes Oskaar and GoneBaroque! And also thanks Tapkaara for the bios advice.

Well having re-listened to the symphonies I can't decide which one is my favorite. I like each of them for various reasons. I think for me the 2nd remains the most accessible of his symphonies but I very much enjoy the 1st. The 3rd I enjoy but mostly only the first three movements. The 4th is dark and I have to be in a certain mood to choose it but I still think it's a great work. The last three really show his maturity but I think the 7th is too short. As many times as I have listened to it it seems to be lacking something. I'm going to re-listen to them all on Spotify. I found the Osmo Vanska and the Lahti Symphony Orchestra versions on there complete. It seems that Spotify here in the States does not have as many choices as the European friends get to enjoy. Unusual because they are usually the ones complaining that they don't get to enjoy what we do. Turner Classic Movie channel is a good example because the UK version does not play anywhere near as deep a catalog as the US version. Anyway, enough of my ramblings! lol

Kevin

And yes I am a huge classic movie buff. I run a social network for classic movie fans. Thus the comparison


----------



## Tapkaara

Kevin Pearson said:


> The 3rd I enjoy but mostly only the first three movements.


In that case, you love the whole piece...it only has 3 movements!! 

I love, by the way, classic horror films. TCM plays some really good, rare ones around Halloween.


----------



## Kevin Pearson

My mistake! You are absolutely correct! It's the last movement that I don't care much for. I love the first movement of the 3rd though.

As for TCM I like the old classic horror films too as that is what I grew up watching on late night TV as a kid. I'm especially fond of the Universal and Hammer Films outputs.

Kevin


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

Work 
*Sibelius: 2 Serenades for Violin and Orchestra, Op.69*

Artists	
Sakari Tapponen, Gothenburg-Aarhus Philharmonic, Douglas Bostock




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Over...Y9UE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320761723&sr=8-1

Very beautiful! Great pieces, Sibelius has a depth and intensity, a nerve, that few composers have, as I have found. The sound is not very good ... not bad, but it is something that seems harsh in between. The second serenade is my favorite among these two. Great performance.










Work 
*Sibelius: 2 Earnest Melodies, for violin and orchestra, Op.77*

Artists	
Folke Grasbeck and Bengt Forsberg




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Viol...DE9G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1320763332&sr=8-2

Very beautiful, sensitive and colorful work. Cantique is a fabulous piece! Adventurous and melodious. And very intense.
Devotion is quieter, but also defame beautiful.
Performances are excellent, the interaction between piano and violin are very good. And the sound is fine.


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

*Sibelius: Symphony No.4 in A-, Op.63*

Artists	
Adrian Leaper, Jean Sibelius and Slovak Philharmonic Orchestra




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...13M6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1323096413&sr=8-2

I did not particularly like Sibelius's Symphony no 3 at the first listening. This is also the first listening to no 4, and I really like! Pretty gloomy at times, but it's amazing variations in mood and emotions.
Very good and sensitive performance. The sound is pretty good.


----------



## Tapkaara

oskaar said:


> *Jean Sibelius*
> 
> Work
> *Sibelius: 2 Serenades for Violin and Orchestra, Op.69*
> 
> Artists
> Sakari Tapponen, Gothenburg-Aarhus Philharmonic, Douglas Bostock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Over...Y9UE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320761723&sr=8-1
> 
> Very beautiful! Great pieces, Sibelius has a depth and intensity, a nerve, that few composers have, as I have found. The sound is not very good ... not bad, but it is something that seems harsh in between. The second serenade is my favorite among these two. Great performance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Work
> *Sibelius: 2 Earnest Melodies, for violin and orchestra, Op.77*
> 
> Artists
> Folke Grasbeck and Bengt Forsberg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Viol...DE9G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1320763332&sr=8-2
> 
> Very beautiful, sensitive and colorful work. Cantique is a fabulous piece! Adventurous and melodious. And very intense.
> Devotion is quieter, but also defame beautiful.
> Performances are excellent, the interaction between piano and violin are very good. And the sound is fine.


Anything with Folke Grasbeck's name attached is sure to be a good thing!


----------



## Tapkaara

oskaar said:


> *Jean Sibelius*
> 
> *Sibelius: Symphony No.4 in A-, Op.63*
> 
> Artists
> Adrian Leaper, Jean Sibelius and Slovak Philharmonic Orchestra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...13M6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1323096413&sr=8-2
> 
> I did not particularly like Sibelius's Symphony no 3 at the first listening. This is also the first listening to no 4, and I really like! Pretty gloomy at times, but it's amazing variations in mood and emotions.
> Very good and sensitive performance. The sound is pretty good.


This old Leaper cycle is not considered, usually, to be among the definitive symphony cycles, but it's always been something of a dark horse. The sonics on these older Naxos recordings were never (usually) top-shelf, but Leaper does prove himself to be a capable...and even sensitive...Sibelian.


----------



## Tapkaara

I just took in Sibelius's Third Symphony this evening. The recording was Colin Davis and the London Symphony on the orchestra's own LSO Live label.

This has never been Sibelius's most popular symphony. It was met with astonishment when it premiered in 1907. Expecting the epic grandeur of the composer's previous two symphonies, the audience was puzzled by the restrained, pastoral mood of the piece.

And that famed Sibelian Herbert von Karajan, who so championed Sibelius, never recorded the 3rd, though he recorded every other symphony, at least once.

So what gives, then?

My appeal to the Society: Please tell me YOUR thoughts about the 3rd Symphony.

I am amazed that even after all of these years, I tend to like it more and more with each go. It's so tightly structured and the depth of the orchestration is really pretty cool; there are so many things going on at once. On the surface, the symphony seems so simple but more discerning listeners will note just how complex these musical goings-on are. 

Plus, I feel that this is one of the Finnish master most purely melodic symphonies, which should make it pretty accessible to most people. But yet it remains overlooked all too often...


----------



## Kevin Pearson

I agree with you that it is one of his most melodic symphonies. Strikingly beautiful in certain parts. The tone color and textures are something that could only have come from Sibelius. I do like the 3rd a lot but mostly for the first two movements as I have stated in an earlier post. I don't know why but the third movement does not do it for me even though there are references back to the first two movements. It's not that I don't like the last movement at all because I do but it seems almost a let down from the highly memorable melodies of the first two movements. The third seems harder to lay hold of in my mind and even after having just listened to it again the melodies of the first two movements stay with me while the third does not. I don't know if anyone else feels this way about this symphony but those are my thoughts and feelings surrounding it.

Kevin


----------



## Tapkaara

Kevin Pearson said:


> I agree with you that it is one of his most melodic symphonies. Strikingly beautiful in certain parts. The tone color and textures are something that could only have come from Sibelius. I do like the 3rd a lot but mostly for the first two movements as I have stated in an earlier post. I don't know why but the third movement does not do it for me even though there are references back to the first two movements. It's not that I don't like the last movement at all because I do but it seems almost a let down from the highly memorable melodies of the first two movements. The third seems harder to lay hold of in my mind and even after having just listened to it again the melodies of the first two movements stay with me while the third does not. I don't know if anyone else feels this way about this symphony but those are my thoughts and feelings surrounding it.
> 
> Kevin


I feel the three movements fit into each other so perfectly that it is impossible not to like the totality of the work, final movement and all. But you and I are different people, alas, so it goes!

Actually, the way the third movement sort of whips itself into a soaring frenzy up that decisive but almost plain-spoken final cadence is quite thrilling. I think the recording I listened to tonight (Davis/LSO) captures the excitement of Sibelius's writing in these final pages with great flair.


----------



## Llyranor

I quite like the 3rd. I'll have to listen to it again to give more details, but I'm fond of it.

On another note, En Saga is really something! I've listened to the original and final versions, and still unsure about which version I enjoy most, but I love them both. I'm exploring his tone poems presently.


----------



## Tapkaara

Llyranor said:


> I quite like the 3rd. I'll have to listen to it again to give more details, but I'm fond of it.
> 
> On another note, En Saga is really something! I've listened to the original and final versions, and still unsure about which version I enjoy most, but I love them both. I'm exploring his tone poems presently.


I love both of them, too. Aino Sibelius, the composer's wife, preferred the original version herself. Unfortunately, there is only one recording of the original En Saga, but it fails to catch fire like other recordings with the revised version. Vänskä is a superior Sibelian, but I think he missed an oppoertunity to bring out the inherent pagan wildness in place of something more sedate. It doesn't sem likely that there will be any other recordings of the original version any time soon as the score was very specially lent to BIS records by the somewaht insular Sibelius family.

My preferred version of the revised and final version is on EMI. Karajan with the Berlin Phil.


----------



## Llyranor

I've relistened to them again. The orchestration is really different (and good) for both of them (actually, now I'm not sure how different the orchestration actually is, might just be my poor listening memory). It's too bad the booklet doesn't really detail the changes. I still can't decide which I like more! My listening memory isn't the best; maybe I'll take notes for a more detailed comparison.

As for the 3rd, just listened to it again. Love it! I actually find it fairly easy to "get"; as mentioned, it's very melodic. I don't know what's unlikable about the 3rd mvt, because I quite enjoy it. Particularly the 2nd half (starting around 4:38 in the video). That's where I feel the tension starts to build up for the ending.





As an aside, has anyone read these 3-volume books of Sibelius' biography by Tawaststjerna (translated by Layton)? It seems interesting (and pricey!) because "he had unrestricted access to the composer's papers, diaries and letters as well as the advantage of numerous conversations with the composer's widow and other members of the family," as the description says. Any thoughts on these?


----------



## Tapkaara

Llyranor said:


> I've relistened to them again. The orchestration is really different (and good) for both of them (actually, now I'm not sure how different the orchestration actually is, might just be my poor listening memory). It's too bad the booklet doesn't really detail the changes. I still can't decide which I like more! My listening memory isn't the best; maybe I'll take notes for a more detailed comparison.
> 
> As for the 3rd, just listened to it again. Love it! I actually find it fairly easy to "get"; as mentioned, it's very melodic. I don't know what's unlikable about the 3rd mvt, because I quite enjoy it. Particularly the 2nd half (starting around 4:38 in the video). That's where I feel the tension starts to build up for the ending.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As an aside, has anyone read these 3-volume books of Sibelius' biography by Tawaststjerna (translated by Layton)? It seems interesting (and pricey!) because "he had unrestricted access to the composer's papers, diaries and letters as well as the advantage of numerous conversations with the composer's widow and other members of the family," as the description says. Any thoughts on these?


I know of Tawastjerna's epic biography, but I do not have it. Yes, it is expensive and hard to find; I am sure one day I'll snag a copy. It is usally described as "definitive."

I do have a copy of Tawastjena's text as a one-volume, abridged version, though it is in Finnish. My Finnish is decent, though not what it used to be, and the fact that I have to check with my dictionary so often to understand this or that word makes reading it pretty tough. It has great pictures, too...many of which I have never seen published elsewhere.


----------



## Manxfeeder

I'm listening to the 3rd. It's very motive-driven, in a classical sense. I think it's interesting how in the last movement the big tune is subjected to many subtle/unsubtle variations which recall motives from both previous movements, and it could go on indefinitely, but it doesn't become wearisome.


----------



## Kevin Pearson

Llyranor said:


> As for the 3rd, just listened to it again. Love it! I actually find it fairly easy to "get"; as mentioned, it's very melodic. I don't know what's unlikable about the 3rd mvt, because I quite enjoy it. Particularly the 2nd half (starting around 4:38 in the video). That's where I feel the tension starts to build up for the ending.


I didn't say that I don't like the 3rd movement, in fact I said the opposite, but I don't find it as memorable as the first two movements. But that's just me and how I feel about the piece. It certainly will not stop me from listening to it again that's for sure! 

Kevin


----------



## Tapkaara

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm listening to the 3rd. It's very motive-driven, in a classical sense. I think it's interesting how in the last movement the big tune is subjected to many subtle/unsubtle variations which recall motives from both previous movements, and it could go on indefinitely, but it doesn't become wearisome.


I would surely say that the 3rd is the most "classical" of Sibelius's symphonies. I also feel it is something of his "Pastorale," though this is purely my own feeling about the piece. By no means did Sibelius attach any such meaning to his 3rd.

In fact, the piece strikes me as proto-minimalistic, if I can coin a phrase.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tapkaara said:


> In fact, the piece strikes me as proto-minimalistic, if I can coin a phrase.


I think that's a good characterization.


----------



## Chrythes

I've been listening again to his Piano Quintet and the third movement seemed so familiar, as if nostalgic - especially those short melodic piano parts - were they borrowed from somewhere or is it original work?
I'm still always amazed when a melody or a motif seem to resonate so deep within myself, in a way that it feels so intimately familiar, even if i probably never heard them before.


----------



## Xaltotun

I like all his symphonies these days. The 3rd is the happiest, I usually put it on when I'm in a happy and cozy mood. It reminds me of his home, the Ainola, and the nature that surrounds it. The 3rd was one of the first pieces he wrote after he had moved there with his wife Aino. The 3rd is very vibrant, with its captivating rhythms and sunny feeling. The intimate proportions of the symphony seem... human-sized. There's also darkness, but of a friendly kind... a sort of welcoming darkness of the nightly forest. (In Finland, the forest isn't seen as a scary thing, even at night. It is thought as a home and a friend.)

Jussi Jalas, a relative of Sibelius and a conductor, wrote some interesting thoughts about the 3rd. He thought it was under-appreciated because it's been played with improper tempos. The key is to play the second movement slow enough - as a real adagio. Because of the folk music feel, people may have played it with tempos alike those of folk songs. But that's not how it's supposed to be played. Any symphony needs a slow movement to achieve the proper psychological effect.

I also recently discovered an early tone poem by Sibelius that I had been unaware of, the Wood-Nymph (Op. 15). It totally blew me away with its Wagnerian/Brucknerian pathos combined with Sibelian dreaminess. It may be a bit simple when compared to his later tone poems, but that does not stop it from being great! I'll actually put it to the Talk Classical Spotify list so that everyone can share my joy


----------



## Kevin Pearson

What's the Talk Classical Spotify list? And where can it be found?

Kevin


----------



## Xaltotun

It was a playlist in Spotify that Polednice started some months ago. People would add pieces in it and change them in two week's time. I've been absent from the board for a couple of months, and I don't know what's going on, but the list seems to have calcified... I'm pretty much the only one who is still changing the pieces. To get the list, get Spotify and, um, actually I'm not sure how to proceed from there... maybe send a PM to Polednice?


----------



## Oskaar

Here is the list!

http://open.spotify.com/user/cjhacke...CJfkg6LE2guDkw


----------



## Tapkaara

Xaltotun said:


> I like all his symphonies these days. The 3rd is the happiest, I usually put it on when I'm in a happy and cozy mood. It reminds me of his home, the Ainola, and the nature that surrounds it. The 3rd was one of the first pieces he wrote after he had moved there with his wife Aino. The 3rd is very vibrant, with its captivating rhythms and sunny feeling. The intimate proportions of the symphony seem... human-sized. There's also darkness, but of a friendly kind... a sort of welcoming darkness of the nightly forest. (In Finland, the forest isn't seen as a scary thing, even at night. It is thought as a home and a friend.)
> 
> Jussi Jalas, a relative of Sibelius and a conductor, wrote some interesting thoughts about the 3rd. He thought it was under-appreciated because it's been played with improper tempos. The key is to play the second movement slow enough - as a real adagio. Because of the folk music feel, people may have played it with tempos alike those of folk songs. But that's not how it's supposed to be played. Any symphony needs a slow movement to achieve the proper psychological effect.
> 
> I also recently discovered an early tone poem by Sibelius that I had been unaware of, the Wood-Nymph (Op. 15). It totally blew me away with its Wagnerian/Brucknerian pathos combined with Sibelian dreaminess. It may be a bit simple when compared to his later tone poems, but that does not stop it from being great! I'll actually put it to the Talk Classical Spotify list so that everyone can share my joy


What a good point about Sibelius moving into Ainola and the composition of the 3rd. Having had the supreme pleasure of visiting Ainola myself, I certainly could feel the spirit of coziness and happiness at the property. Perhaps the new feelings of excitement of living in such a beautiful place do manifest in this work.

And YES, the Wood-Nymph is one of music's great mysteries to me. Mysterious because it's never played. I'll bet most of the people on this forum (who may be otherwse very well acquainted with Sibelius) may not have even heard of it. As you mention, with its Brucknerian/Wagnerian high-drama and strumg und drang, it could be a hit in concert halls. But it is never played anywhere, and only very rarely in Finland. There are a scant handful of recordings of the work, the best being Osmo Vänskä's world premiere interpretation on BIS.


----------



## Xaltotun

On Wood-Nymph, I agree 100%. Why hadn't I heard about it before? Why don't people talk about and perform it more? When I heard it on the radio, I didn't know it was Sibelius, I was just spellbound and thinking "Whoever wrote this is going to be added to my list of best composers ever!". Then when the announcer annouced the piece's name and composer, I was greatly amused: "Gee, now Sibelius is EVEN better than before - how's that even possible?"


----------



## Tapkaara

Xaltotun said:


> On Wood-Nymph, I agree 100%. Why hadn't I heard about it before? Why don't people talk about and perform it more? When I heard it on the radio, I didn't know it was Sibelius, I was just spellbound and thinking "Whoever wrote this is going to be added to my list of best composers ever!". Then when the announcer annouced the piece's name and composer, I was greatly amused: "Gee, now Sibelius is EVEN better than before - how's that even possible?"


Interestingly, the wood-Nymph, as rare as it is, is one of the first works by Sibelius I'd ever heard and it's what helped make him so special to me.

When I was looking to branch out into the world of Sibelius and purchase CDs, I made a trip to one of our local Towaer Records. (How I miss those stores!) Over in the classical section the BIS Wood-Nymph disc was displayed in the new release section. Seeing that it was by Sibelius, I bought it. I probably had only bought about two disc prior to this one. I didn't really realize that it was rare, I guessed it was just a new recording of a work that had probably been recorded several times before in the past.

Obviously, the exciting drama of the piece really won me over. It gave me confidence that Sibelius was a composer I'd really like.


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

*Sibelius: Symphony No.5 in Eb, Op.82 *

Artist

Maurice Abravanal, Utah Symphony




http://www.amazon.com/SIBELIUS-Comp...3DDO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323259622&sr=8-1

I'm not quite sure if I like the symphony. But this is the first time listening so much can change. But I think it's a bit of a standstill. In a way it builds up to something that never comes. But I'll give the symphony a lot of chances!
Very good performance and great sound!


----------



## Kevin Pearson

oskaar said:


> *Jean Sibelius*
> 
> *Sibelius: Symphony No.5 in Eb, Op.82 *
> 
> Artist
> 
> Maurice Abravanal, Utah Symphony
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/SIBELIUS-Comp...3DDO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323259622&sr=8-1
> 
> I'm not quite sure if I like the symphony. But this is the first time listening so much can change. But I think it's a bit of a standstill. In a way it builds up to something that never comes. But I'll give the symphony a lot of chances!
> Very good performance and great sound!


Try the Osmo Vanska version from The Sibelius Edition on Spotify. I love all the recorded symphonies he did of Sibelius. Good performance and good readings and tempos.

Kevin


----------



## Manxfeeder

oskaar said:


> I'm not quite sure if I like the symphony. But this is the first time listening so much can change. But I think it's a bit of a standstill. In a way it builds up to something that never comes.


I think you're basically on the right track. One person called it an "epic struggle to respond adequately to what nature has to offer," noting that it is unable to get a functional dominant until the end.

I was listening to this with my wife, and I was pointing out the swan theme in the last movement. When the staccato bursts came to end the piece, she asked, "Is that where he's shooting them?" Well, now that you put it that way . . .


----------



## samurai

@ KP, With which Orchestra is Vanska performing the Sibelius 5th with? Is it the Oslo Philharmonic perhaps, or maybe the Lahti?


----------



## Kevin Pearson

samurai said:


> @ KP, With which Orchestra is Vanska performing the Sibelius 5th with? Is it the Oslo Philharmonic perhaps, or maybe the Lahti?


It's the Lahti.

spotify:album:5RO9grSk3Hz7WNjvJ6Wz4M

Kevin


----------



## Xaltotun

The 5th is one of his most popular works, but that can be misleading as a statement. I think it's a difficult piece, quite intellectual too, but very rewarding. When I heard it the first time I was quite baffled: I remember thinking that the piece was extremely interesting but lacked the "human element". Now I think that the human element is there, as a subtext of sorts... the symphony transcends it. It is about nature, but not as an emotional, romantic experience... more about what nature really is, and man's place in it. But the best way to describe the symphony might be with the words of the composer himself:

In another diary entry (April 1915) Sibelius wrote: "In the evening, working on the symphony. This important task which strangely enchants me. As if God the Father had thrown down pieces of a mosaic from the floor of heaven and asked me to work out the pattern."
(from www.sibelius.fi)

Keep in mind that his previous symphony had been the 4th, the ultimate destroyer and disintegrator of the self. I think he was trying to put the pieces of the shattered self (in relation to the world i.e. nature) back together.


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*
*
Sibelius: Symphony No.5 in Eb, Op.82 *

Artist

Osmo Vänskä and Lahti Symphony Orchestra




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...PJ/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1323259204&sr=8-21

I did not like the symphony on first listening. I do not think it was the recording there was something wrong with, it was actually just as good as this. It was more my ears and listen moode But I notice now that it is a work I can be truly found of. It certainly required some listening , but I see great potential.

Vanska / Lahti cycle is very evenly good!


----------



## Llyranor

I'm not sure why the 5th is his most popular. I quite love it, but I also found it quite a difficult piece and it took me multiple listens to appreciate it more (the beginning of the 3rd movement leading to the swan call captivated me on the first listen, which prompted me to get the full symphonic cycle in order to explore it more in detail, though). Some of his earlier ones are much more accessible (the first two, for example).

Also, yes, just listened to The Wood-Nymph. Fantastic!


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

Sibelius: Symphony No.4 in A-, Op.63

Artists	
Paavo Berglund and Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...68Z4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323096295&sr=8-1

This is perhaps one of Sibelius's more "difficult" symphonies, but in contrast to the fifth so I fell for it immediately. I find it incredibly exciting.
Performance here is excellent. I think there are many good versions of Sibelius's symphonies there. Not only Vanska / Lahti.
Very good sound, and very sensitive play. Really great nerve through it all.


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

Work 
*Sibelius: Symphony No.1 in E-, Op.39*

Artists

 Leonard Bernstein, Wiener Philharmoniker 




http://www.musicload.ch/leonard-ber...ymphonies-nos-1-2-5-7/musik/boxset/10993960_1

It's hard for me to rank Sibelius's symphonies so far. No. 6 and 7, I have not listened to yet. This is the symphony I've listened to most, and I find it eminently! It is quite easy to go in. wonderfully melodic, lyrical and dramatic.

This performance is very good. It is not perfect, neither the sound or performance, but very good.


----------



## Tapkaara

Xaltotun said:


> The 5th is one of his most popular works, but that can be misleading as a statement. I think it's a difficult piece, quite intellectual too, but very rewarding. When I heard it the first time I was quite baffled: I remember thinking that the piece was extremely interesting but lacked the "human element". Now I think that the human element is there, as a subtext of sorts... the symphony transcends it. It is about nature, but not as an emotional, romantic experience... more about what nature really is, and man's place in it. But the best way to describe the symphony might be with the words of the composer himself:
> 
> In another diary entry (April 1915) Sibelius wrote: "In the evening, working on the symphony. This important task which strangely enchants me. As if God the Father had thrown down pieces of a mosaic from the floor of heaven and asked me to work out the pattern."
> (from www.sibelius.fi)
> 
> Keep in mind that his previous symphony had been the 4th, the ultimate destroyer and disintegrator of the self. I think he was trying to put the pieces of the shattered self (in relation to the world i.e. nature) back together.


What an interesting thought that the 4th was representitive of the shattered self and the 5th represents piecing the shards back together.

The 5th is a best-of-both-worlds symphony to me, which you were getting at. It comines beauty and drama without abandoning intellect and solid structure. In a way, it's a symphony that has everything; perhaps this is why it's my favorite.

I find the second movement, though, to be very touchingly human. It's not one of his more blatantly lyrical slow movements (compare it to the slow movements of his 1st and 3rd), but there is something very human...and humane about it. It's strangely intimate.


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

*Sibelius: Symphony No. 2 in D major, Op. 43*

Artists	
Ussr State Symphony Orchestra & Vladimir Yesipov




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1322837752&sr=1-1

The second symphony is more boring than the first. In any case, it is my impression now. But still very good. But I have a feeling that the later symphonies will grow larger than this with me, if I give them some time.
Very good performance! I often like Russian or Eastern European performances. It's like they have something extra to give! The sound is very good!


----------



## Tapkaara

oskaar said:


> The second symphony is more boring than the first.


What a puzzling statement!! The 2nd is boring???


----------



## Oskaar

It is absolutely not, Tapkira.. Sorry for using that word. I have just listened to no 1, and in comparisin, boring is not the right word... but less exiting! Just a momentary feeling. I love all symphonies more and more. (Not listened to 6 and 7 yet.)


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

*Sibelius: Symphony No.3 in C, Op.52*

Artists	
Adrian Leaper, Jean Sibelius and Slovak Philharmonic Orchestra




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...13M6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1323013120&sr=8-2

Sibelius's symphonies all have different qualities. I did not like this as well on first listening. But the world! It's great! You must remember, Tapkira, it's all pretty new to me. I think I acquire my Sibelius pretty fast.

Not very good sound, but otherwise a great version.


----------



## Manxfeeder

oskaar said:


> Not very good sound, but otherwise a great version


I have that set. I agree with your impression.


----------



## violadude

I guess I'll add to this thread by saying that I have performed Sibelius' 2nd symphony with the youth symphony I was in my high school days.


----------



## Tapkaara

violadude said:


> I guess I'll add to this thread by saying that I have performed Sibelius' 2nd symphony with the youth symphony I was in my high school days.


You could provide an interesting take on things since you have actually performed the music. What were your impressions of the music, and your experiences performing it?


----------



## violadude

Tapkaara said:


> You could provide an interesting take on things since you have actually performed the music. What were your impressions of the music, and your experiences performing it?


It was really fun to play. You had to listen to the other players a lot though and get cues from them because Sibelius shifts the instrumentation around so much sometimes. Some of the syncopation were really tricky too, especially in the first movement.I dont know if I can describe the trickiest syncopation part. It's the part at 5:16 on this recording 




Ya that's the part I had the hardest time on, believe it or not. It doesn't sound too hard but getting into that part is really tricky.

I played this in my senior year of Highschool and at that time I felt sad because I felt like I was about to lose a lot of my friends. So this melody in the second movement (at 5:07) ended up really touching me. 




Of course the 3rd movement was bloody hard at first. But it's not too tricky once you get the hang of it. The finger patterns stay pretty consistent.

I think the most exciting part to play was the transition from the 3rd movement to the 4th movement. That was just a blast.

The worst part to play though was those 2 parts in the 4th movement where there's that melody over the up and down scale that gets repeated a bunch of times. The viola has that scale with the other instruments that are playing it both times >.< It started to hurt my fingers after a while.


----------



## Tapkaara

violadude said:


> It was really fun to play. You had to listen to the other players a lot though and get cues from them because Sibelius shifts the instrumentation around so much sometimes. Some of the syncopation were really tricky too, especially in the first movement.I dont know if I can describe the trickiest syncopation part. It's the part at 5:16 on this recording
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ya that's the part I had the hardest time on, believe it or not. It doesn't sound too hard but getting into that part is really tricky.
> 
> I played this in my senior year of Highschool and at that time I felt sad because I felt like I was about to lose a lot of my friends. So this melody in the second movement (at 5:07) ended up really touching me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course the 3rd movement was bloody hard at first. But it's not too tricky once you get the hang of it. The finger patterns stay pretty consistent.
> 
> I think the most exciting part to play was the transition from the 3rd movement to the 4th movement. That was just a blast.
> 
> The worst part to play though was those 2 parts in the 4th movement where there's that melody over the up and down scale that gets repeated a bunch of times. The viola has that scale with the other instruments that are playing it both times >.< It started to hurt my fingers after a while.


This is all very interesting! And in fact, I think you highlight something that is very true: Sibelius sounds a lot easier than it is.

If anyone in here has ever looked at a score for any of Sibelius's symphonic works...especially his symphonies...you'll likely be astounded/impressed by how "busy" it looks. I once compared a Sibelius score to a Bruckner score. It's quite incredible, really, how much more simple (not saying Bruckner's music is simplistic or lesser than Sibelius) Bruckner's score was in comparison. And yet, to a layperson, Bruckner may sound more "orchestrated" than Sibelius with his dense, blocky sonorities.

Sibelius was, I think, one of music's greatest orchestrators. The way he could weave so many instrumental lines into each other so damn seamlessly is proof of this. That's why looking at his scores is such a different experience from hearing the final product.

Thanks for the commentary. very enlightening, indeed!


----------



## Llyranor

oskaar said:


> It is absolutely not, Tapkira.. Sorry for using that word. I have just listened to no 1, and in comparisin, boring is not the right word... but less exiting! Just a momentary feeling. I love all symphonies more and more. (Not listened to 6 and 7 yet.)


What do you think about the final movement/ending of the 2nd? I love the slow-building tension, it's ridiculously awesome!


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

Work 
*Sibelius: Symphony No.1 in E-, Op.39*

Artists	
San Francisco Symphony (Artist), Herbert Blomstedt




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...Q1EA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317125738&sr=8-1

No Especially good version. The sound is only half way, and I do not think the orchestra submit the spark and the nerve that lies in the work. It seems flat. But the symphony is the first class.


----------



## Llyranor

Cassazione is lovely!


----------



## Tapkaara

Llyranor said:


> Cassazione is lovely!


Interesting piece, isn't it? I think it sort of goes "missing" in the greater context of Sibelius's output because it's neither a symphony nor tone poem. (In a way, Sibelius is practically only known for his symphonies and tone poems.) It plays like a tone poem, though; it has significant length and has the same dark excitement of En Saga in areas. Should be better known!


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

*Sibelius: Symphony No.5 in Eb, Op.82 *

Artist

Lorin Maazel
Pittsburg symphony orchestra




http://www.amazon.com/Lorin-Maazel-...1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323259450&sr=8-1-fkmr0

A great symphony, but some of the glow is missing in this recording. The sound is not especially good, and I do not think performances are so good either. Somewhat tame and hesitating.


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

*Sibelius: Karelia Suite, Op.11*

Artists	
Oramo and City of Birmingham Orch




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symphonies/dp/B0000SYABW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322842106&sr=8-1

The first movement is the better known... but I find it quite one dimentional. The second opens up for much more! Imasingly lyric! Very nice and intense nerve. The third is quite nice, but not Sibelius at his best
Very nice performance, but not the best sound.










Work 
*Sibelius: 2 Serenades for Violin and Orchestra, Op.69*

Artists	
Christian Tetzlaff/Danish National Symphony Orchestra/Thomas Dausgaard




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Work...XIN2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320761519&sr=8-1

Almost painfully beautiful! This serenades show the true genious of Sibelius!
Fantasticly played, and the sound is quite well. Highly recommended!


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

*Sibelius: Symphony No. 2 in D major, Op. 43*

Artists	
South German Philharmonic Orchestra & Alfred Scholz




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1322837665&sr=1-1

I eventually this symphony very well.
But there is something fundamentally wrong with the sound. It can be spotify. It is choppy and strange. I think I'll skip this one.


----------



## Oskaar

*Jean Sibelius*

*Sibelius: Symphony No. 2 in D major, Op. 43*

Artists	
Slovenian Symphony Orchestra & Anton Nanut




http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symp...=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1322837574&sr=1-1

Here is at least the sound audible. But not a good sound ...
I also think the performance is otherwise a bit average.


----------



## Kevin Pearson

I can't believe this thread has gotten buried. I've been listening to different versions of the 5th symphony lately and enjoying it immensely. At the same time reading reviews and analysis articles to help my appreciation. In the course of doing so I came across a website called "Beyond The Score" and a video with the Chicago Symphony and Osmo Vanska directing and dissecting the symphony with quotes from Sibelius to help us understand the evolution this symphony went through. In the Sibelius Edition the 1915 version is recorded in it's four movement form but I think it has to be admitted that Sibelius knew what he was doing in reworking the symphony into it's final form of 1919. Many of the melodies in the 1914 version do not have the impact they do in the final form and we are enriched with a symphony that is really like no other. The final opening with the swan theme haunts anyone who listens to it to the final chords. Wonderful stuff! Here is the link to the video:

http://beyondthescore.org/program_sibelius.html

Enjoy!

Kevin


----------



## Tero

Thread seems to be still alive.

I have been living here since high school, so never had a chance to hear it in Finland. So my parents found some kind of touring Finnish orchestra played in a high school. I don't even think it was a full orchestra, but they played a variety of stuff and I think one was a movement of Symphony 2. So since then I have had symphonies 2 and 4, Karelia and Kullervo. I did not get into the Tone Poems till this last year, 40 years after that concert.


----------

