# Opera ohne worte



## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

Say what you will about the boorishness and bourgeoisness of opera without words (ironic considering the origin of opera), but I find that sometimes I just want to listen to the music. I'm having a difficult time locating good _recordings_, though, or information about popular CDs (like the BBC one or Kostelanetz').

Can anyone shed some light? Any worth seeking out? Any with good conductors conducting good symphonies? Are there any that aren't just compilations of different conductors and orchestras?

I already nabbed Lorin Maazel and Berliner's Der Ring ohne Worte, and I'm hoping to find more like that.

For the record, I do in fact go _to_ the opera and have plenty on DVD, so finger-wagging is unnecessary!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Lyricus said:


> Say what you will about the boorishness and bourgeoisness of opera without words (ironic considering the origin of opera),


As a courtly entertainment for special events, intended as a revival of the principles of classical Greek drama?


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

Mahlerian said:


> As a courtly entertainment for special events, intended as a revival of the principles of classical Greek drama?


Greek drama was anything but elite, but yes, perhaps I should have said development or some other word.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Lyricus said:


> Greek drama was anything but elite, but yes, perhaps I should have said development or some other word.


Yeah, it did become a bourgeois entertainment, especially by the 19th century.

Anyway, going back to the OP topic, I do remember some suites of music from Rameau's operas that were particularly successful, and of course I have listened to plenty of Wagner excerpts and overtures over the years, but the practice of creating a digest version of a work for the express purpose of not having it sung seems odd to me.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Opera without words? That is a very strange idea to me. So there are such works? Would it be anything like Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words?


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Florestan said:


> Opera without words? That is a very strange idea to me. So there are such works? Would it be anything like Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words?


No. The OP is talking about recordings in which the words are excluded. E.g., "Wagner Without Words." I don't think there are any "Monteverdi Without Words" or "Bellini Without Words" recordings out there.


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

Here are examples I mentioned:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

GreenMamba said:


> No. The OP is talking about recordings in which the words are excluded. E.g., "Wagner Without Words." I don't think there are any "Monteverdi Without Words" or "Bellini Without Words" recordings out there.


Well there is a lot of great music in opera and it the singing is not included they may appeal to a wider audience.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Florestan said:


> Well there is a lot of great music in opera and it the singing is not included they may appeal to a wider audience.


Sure, although I think purely orchestral music would work better for Wagner than for most others.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Anyway, going back to the OP topic, I do remember some suites of music from Rameau's operas that were particularly successful, and of course I have listened to plenty of Wagner excerpts and overtures over the years, but the practice of creating a digest version of a work for the express purpose of not having it sung seems odd to me.


I listen to instrumental and vocal music very differently. Or, rather, voices demand attention. This is generally a feature, such as when one is carefully listening to something. In such instances, I'll stick with Opera With Words.

But I want to listen to music more than that. Right now I'm listening to a _Don Giovanni_ (with words), and it's arresting my attention more than if there were no singing, such as with the version for string quartet.

When I'm trying to get to know an opera, I'll often try to listen to instrumental excerpts or arrangements; it's a way of approaching the work slowly, one aspect at a time. I see it as very similar to listening to an opera before seeing a performance of it.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Opera without words? That is a very strange idea to me. So there are such works? Would it be anything like Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words?


Yes, such things exist:



Florestan said:


> Properly this probably ought to be in the non vocal forum, but it is based on opera and I figure the opera forum viewers might be more knowledgeable on this topic. So I found a couple of single disk sets of parts from the Opera Fidelio played by wind ensemble:
> 
> Version for Harmonie
> 
> Musical Heritage Society


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Lyricus said:


> Say what you will about the boorishness and bourgeoisness of opera without words (ironic considering the origin of opera), but I find that sometimes I just want to listen to the music. I'm having a difficult time locating good _recordings_, though, or information about popular CDs (like the BBC one or Kostelanetz').
> 
> Can anyone shed some light? Any worth seeking out? Any with good conductors conducting good symphonies? Are there any that aren't just compilations of different conductors and orchestras?
> 
> ...


If you use Spotify, you can check out the long playlist I have made that is a collection of instrumental opera excerpts, arrangements, and variations.

George Szell has a Wagner Without Words album with the Cleveland Orchestra. Frantisek Vajnar and Collegium Musicum Pragense have a version of _Le Nozze di Figaro_ arranged for wind octet with 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 french horns, and 2 bassoons. I also quite like the wind ensemble version _Fidelio_; available as played by the NHK Symphony Orchestra Wind Ensemble. Alan Gilbert and the NYPO recorded "A Ring Journey," a 50-minute suite from the Wagner.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

A recording I recommend unreservedly is this Wagner collection by Charles Gerhardt on the Chesky label:

https://www.amazon.com/Orchestra-Mu...id=1467317787&sr=1-1&keywords=wagner+gerhardt

It contains the Stokowski arrangement of love music from acts 2 and 3 of _Tristan_, and Gerhardt's performance couldn't be more exquisite. The absence of singers allows you to concentrate on the sensuous orchestration, and the love duet flows naturally into the Liebestod. The sonics are excellent and the whole thing is utterly intoxicating. Gerhardt also gives us some fine _Ring_ excerpts and a deeply affectionate _Siegfried Idyll._

EDIT: URL repaired. It works now.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mountmccabe said:


> Yes, such things exist:


But has anyone ever written an opera specifically without words instead of simply removing the words from an existing opera?


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

Florestan said:


> But has anyone ever written an opera specifically without words instead of simply removing the words from an existing opera?


You mean like ballet?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Florestan said:


> But has anyone ever written an opera specifically without words instead of simply removing the words from an existing opera?


Ahh, I didn't realize that's what you meant.

There are some that consider _L'Histoire du Soldat_ by Stravinsky an opera, yet it has no singing roles, though there is a lot of recited text, so there are words. _ATLAS: An Opera In Three Parts_ by Meredith Monk is an opera; it also has a little bit of spoken dialogue (less than the Stravinsky) but is mostly propelled by the vocals (which are wordless). Paul Barker has written several a capella operas without texts.

Steven Mackey's _Orpheus Unsung_, an opera for guitar just premiered and has no voices at all.

Some may argue that these don't count as operas, so it probably depends upon your definitions. Perhaps ballets (as some have called Mackey's piece) or other programmatic symphonies, tone poems, etc. (I'm thinking of Berlioz and Strauss here, but there are others) might be closer to what some might consider opera without words.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Lyricus said:


> You mean like ballet?


Not sure what I mean, but generally am not impressed with ballet, at least not on video.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mountmccabe said:


> Ahh, I didn't realize that's what you meant.
> 
> There are some that consider _L'Histoire du Soldat_ by Stravinsky an opera, yet it has no singing roles, though there is a lot of recited text, so there are words. _ATLAS: An Opera In Three Parts_ by Meredith Monk is an opera; it also has a little bit of spoken dialogue (less than the Stravinsky) but is mostly propelled by the vocals (which are wordless). Paul Barker has written several a capella operas without texts.
> 
> ...


Well you have given me a few things to look into, not that it necessarily will go anywhere with me, but never hurts to poke around and explore.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Opera somehow thrives on mediocre texts.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Well you have given me a few things to look into, not that it necessarily will go anywhere with me, but never hurts to poke around and explore.


I certainly recommend exploring, but I'll note that all of the works I specifically mentioned were 20th or 21st century pieces, and most of them would be considered avant-garde. I don't know all of them (_Orpheus Unsung_ is only two weeks old) or like all of the ones I am familiar with (I find the Stravinsky to be intolerable).



Florestan said:


> Not sure what I mean, but generally am not impressed with ballet, at least not on video.


I said the same thing (I had not seen your comment, Lyricus when I wrote mine!), so I'll explain what I meant. Ballet is another dramatic form that uses instrumental music and dance to tell a story or otherwise convey emotional meaning. If you start with a ballet and add sung dramatic texts you could get something very much like an opera/something that could reasonably be called an opera.

And going the other way around if you remove the sung texts from an opera you are left with instrumental music and dance/pantomime/acting to drive the drama, which could be getting into something that could be called ballet.

Of course ballet can also use vocal music. And many operas have dance sections.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Lyricus said:


> Here are examples I mentioned:


These are all adaptations, no such thing as opera without words.


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

Pugg said:


> These are all adaptations, no such thing as opera without words.


Yes, I know. That's what I'm looking for. They're operas I love arranged to remove singing and emphasize the music.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

The only one I know who's doing such thing is André Rieu......but they all made like classic for the millions .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Opera somehow thrives on mediocre texts.


Mediocre in what sense? Libretti are not literature. Their first purpose is to make room for music. If they are already fine literature, musical setting is at best redundant and at worst ruinous.


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