# The Death of Privacy, part 2



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

A while ago I started a thread on Clearview, a company marketing the ability to identify anybody by simply taking a picture, enabled by "scraping" Facebook and other such sites. Their database has literally billions of images plus whatever demographic and other data they've been able to scrape. Imagine seeing a cute girl in the subway. A surreptitious snap with your iPhone and now you know her name, maybe address and phone number, age and birthday, her friends, possibly sexual persuasion and preferences, and so forth. Kind of scary - one lawsuit against Clearview calls it "Orwellian."

Anyway, the mods refused my post, judging it too political. I didn't agree, but it was a small thing.

*But Clearview won't go away*. A few days ago its entire client list, mostly law enforcement agencies, was hacked and stolen. And now its Apple developer account has been suspended for distributing its app to clients from the account, bypassing the Apple Store. This is evidently a no-no, but it's all being fixed.

So I'll try to sneak this privacy threat into the forum again, hoping it's clear this is not a political issue, but the birth of a technology that will likely have a major impact on our lives, and perhaps soon. After all, it won't be available to just the good guys (though maybe that's bad enough)- the bad guys will have it too.


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## Metalkitsune (Jul 11, 2011)

I wonder if anyone remembers the internet back in before y2k when google didn't exist and there was only altavista,and such and the only browser back then was netscape? Back then there seemed real privacy.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

obviously, the only solution is government intervention, ie making of laws that prohibit private companies to compile any such databases (GDPR is a first step), and also public education about privacy, not uploading anything private to internet. But most people do not really realize what is at stake.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Jacck said:


> obviously, the only solution is government intervention, ie making of laws that prohibit private companies to compile any such databases (GDPR is a first step), and also public education about privacy, not uploading anything private to internet. But most people do not really realize what is at stake.


The question is, have tech corporations gotten so big that no amount of fines will hurt them? The only thing that will stop them at this point is to break them up. But there does have to be laws to prevent them after the break ups.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

haydnguy said:


> The question is, have tech corporations gotten so big that no amount of fines will hurt them? The only thing that will stop them at this point is to break them up. But there does have to be laws to prevent them after the break ups.


Of course there are dollar amounts that would hurt them, but they currently just receive slaps on the wrist.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

From *c/net*:
-------------------------------
Clearview AI has also been used by some people working at the FBI, Customs and Border Protection, Interpol, AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile , Best Buy, Eventbrite, Las Vegas Sands, Coinbase, Bank of America, Walmart and Kohl's, according to the BuzzFeed report.

"This list, if confirmed, is a privacy, security, and civil liberties nightmare," said Nathan Freed Wessler, staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union. "Government agents should not be running our faces against a shadily assembled database of billions of our photos in secret and with no safeguards against abuse."


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2020)

Jacck said:


> obviously, the only solution is government intervention, ie making of laws that prohibit private companies to compile any such databases (GDPR is a first step), and also public education about privacy, not uploading anything private to internet. But most people do not really realize what is at stake.


No, that isn't. The problem is that people actually want this. Tell people that the government wants to save all their financial information, all their credit card numbers, wants to track all their internet searches, wants to know all their demographic information - name, age, sex, marital status, profession, picture - and they get outraged. Hell, remember back at the dawn of the Patriot Act when everybody was afraid the government was going to track what books people checked out from the library?

But tell them that it will help speed up their searches, help them shop online more easily, help them find a potential mate - and suddenly people are more than willing to throw that information to any website that has been around for less time than the underwear they have on. The problem isn't that government isn't playing nanny enough, it is that people are stupid. Note I say people. Individually humanity is quite intelligent. But as a whole, people are stupid. And what is government? People. We'd like to think they are the best and brightest, but most politicians are groveling imbeciles that we wouldn't trust individually with any of our information, but somehow by piling a bunch of these morons into a building in some centralized city we think makes them smarter.


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## Metalkitsune (Jul 11, 2011)

The picture i use on Facebook,instagram,Pinterest and such is the same fox icon i use on here.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2020)

DrMike said:


> [...] - and suddenly people are more than willing to throw that information to any website that has been around *for less time than the underwear they have on*.


Hah! Love that phrase, I'm going to steal it, thank you!
I add it to another phrase I want to use from another thread where EdwardBast wrote "*I'd rather open a vein...*".
Anyway, as you were...


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2020)

TalkingHead said:


> Hah! Love that phrase, I'm going to steal it, thank you!
> I add it to another phrase I want to use from another thread where EdwardBast wrote "*I'd rather open a vein...*".
> Anyway, as you were...


Happy to oblige. Can't even say for certain I'm the first to use it. I probably heard it somewhere. Did have a friend one time lamenting the short-lived marriages of celebrities - fretted that some people spent more time picking their music collection than their spouse.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

*Clearview AI probed over facial recognition sales to foreign governments
*

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/clearview-ai-probed-over-facial-recognition-sales-to-foreign-governments/ar-BB10HmUH?ocid=st2


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

This technology is being used in China in the brutal persecution of Uighur Muslims who are being rounded up by the tens of thousands to be imprisoned in reeducation camps and forced labor programs.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

haydnguy said:


> *Clearview AI probed over facial recognition sales to foreign governments
> *
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/clearview-ai-probed-over-facial-recognition-sales-to-foreign-governments/ar-BB10HmUH?ocid=st2


the goal is to build such a system, that just by scanning your face, they will in real time get all details about you including social media history etc. China with help from western companies has almost build it, and western governments no doubt too (in secrecy). And unregulated private companies will build it too.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Apropos.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The future is here as the Surveillance State rapidly matures: *Banjo AI surveillance is already monitoring traffic cams across Utah
*
"A small company called Banjo is bringing pervasive AI surveillance to law enforcement throughout Utah, Motherboard reports. In July, Banjo signed a five-year, $20.7 million contract with Utah. The agreement gives the company real-time access to state traffic cameras, CCTV and public safety cameras, 911 emergency systems, location data for state-owned vehicles and more. In exchange, Banjo promises to alert law enforcement to "anomalies," aka crimes…

"Banjo relies on info scraped from social media, satellite imaging data and the real-time info from law enforcement. Banjo claims its "Live Time Intelligence" AI can identify crimes -- everything from kidnappings to shootings and "opioid events" -- as they happen."


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

*DARPA develops the Hound for national security*

"Moved by the need to take quick action against domestic terrorists and others posing immediate threats, DARPA has developed a quadruped robot nicknamed "the Hound." It is based on prior models from Boston Dynamics:










"The Hound will seek its prey using surveillance networks already functioning in many locations and soon to arrive in others. It is a 24/7 hunter - no matter how the target tries to hide, the Hound will seek him out, even while he sleeps. And when the Hound arrives, the criminal will be quickly dispatched using a poison administered by the Hound's coiled scorpion-like tail. No muss, no fuss, just quick and well-deserved justice for an enemy of our great nation."

Well yeah, I kind of made that up. Or so I hope.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

^^^
Trump would like to sic one of those robot hounds on Jeff Bezos.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2020)

starthrower said:


> ^^^
> Trump would like to sic one of those robot hounds on Jeff Bezos.


Chuck Schumer wants to sic them on Gorsuch and Kavanaugh.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

DrMike said:


> Chuck Schumer wants to sic them on Gorsuch and Kavanaugh.


"Unleash the hounds!" trumpeted Trump as he tore into Justices Sotomayor and Ginsburg. Such a sad, sick child, yet he is loved as a god.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

Can you find my identity ?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2020)

Strange Magic said:


> "Unleash the hounds!" trumpeted Trump as he tore into Justices Sotomayor and Ginsburg. Such a sad, sick child, yet he is loved as a god.


If you were capable of being honest you would admit they are not comparable. Trump never issued threats like Schumer did.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

We are glad when more surveillance results in a dent on crime, aren't we? A criminal is convicted because he was caught on security cameras. A crime is deterred because of those same cameras. Or simply because everyone carries a camera with them in their phone.

Cameras don't always show the whole truth, though. What happens before or after the cameras started rolling can be crucial.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

The thread has some political implications, but please keep the discussion focused on privacy considerations and away from pure divisive politics. Some posts were removed.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Open Book said:


> We are glad when more surveillance results in a dent on crime, aren't we? A criminal is convicted because he was caught on security cameras. A crime is deterred because of those same cameras. Or simply because everyone carries a camera with them in their phone.
> 
> Cameras don't always show the whole truth, though. What happens before or after the cameras started rolling can be crucial.


I would have no problems with cameras, I have a problem with the massive databases of information about us, that are being collected without our consent. I have lived in a totalitarian regime. Now imagine that a new dictator comes to power in former democracies and he will have access to all that information, and starts compiling hit lists for his death squads to exterminate enemies of the regime. Again this is no fantasy, this actually happened both in nazi German and in communist regimes after the communist takeover. In some not too distant future, he will just send little drones programmed to find you based on your biometric data and exterminate you. What is happening in China should scare everyone.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Jacck said:


> I would have no problems with cameras, I have a problem with the massive databases of information about us, that are being collected without our consent. I have lived in a totalitarian regime. Now imagine that a new dictator comes to power in former democracies and he will have access to all that information, and starts compiling hit lists for his death squads to exterminate enemies of the regime. Again this is no fantasy, this actually happened both in nazi German and in communist regimes after the communist takeover. In some not too distant future, he will just send little drones programmed to find you based on your biometric data and exterminate you. What is happening in China should scare everyone.


Naaahhhhh, it's easier to control the Ron Johnson's of the world with the threat of Novichok nerve agents.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Tikoo Tuba said:


> Can you find my identity ?


Tikoo Tuba, an alien from the Large Magellanic Cloud galaxy. Is it correct?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

DrMike said:


> Chuck Schumer wants to sic them on Gorsuch and Kavanaugh.


You can't even let a light hearted joke be, can you? You're compelled to respond with a partisan quip.

And on a more serious note, the trumpster most certainly tried in a lame attempt to intimidate and punish Bezos by demanding the post office increase Amazon's shipping rates. The concept of freedom of the press eludes the stable genius.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

People are already figuring out ways to confuse facial recognition software, whether it's masks, face sequins, eyes on their forehead, or other optical illusions on their faces, or even using a mask of someone else's face.

8 Genius Ways to Trick Surveillance Systems: 
https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/security/g28719483/trick-surveillance-systems/

These clothes use outlandish designs to trick facial recognition software into thinking you're not human 
https://www.businessinsider.com/clothes-accessories-that-outsmart-facial-recognition-tech-2019-10

My favorite is the headgear that projects someone else's face onto your face . . . .


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2020)

starthrower said:


> You can't even let a light hearted joke be, can you? You're compelled to respond with a partisan quip.
> 
> And on a more serious note, the trumpster most certainly tried in a lame attempt to intimidate and punish Bezos by demanding the post office increase Amazon's shipping rates. The concept of freedom of the press eludes the stable genius.


Again, stupid of Trump. I don't like most of his policies, particularly when it comes to business and trade. And I don't like him using the full power of the federal government to go after individuals and individual companies. But that is not new to him. Remember when Obama forced car companies to do his bidding? Didn't like that either. I don't like the government picking winners and losers when the market does it so much more efficiently.

Mine was also a joke - why is yours light-hearted and mine not? Quite honestly, you and Jaack constantly make these little jabs - now you bellyache when it comes your way? Bad form. Yours wasn't a partisan quip in the first place? Mine was at least logically tied to a recent event, as opposed to the standard ad hominems the two of you fling constantly at Trump.

Trump's efforts against Bezos on shipping rates will fail (and I am rooting for Bezos there) - mainly because Bezos is already creating his own shipping network. And good for him. I may not like Bezos' politics, but I love Amazon, and like to see it succeed. But I still limit how much of my information Bezos has. I don't use it for everything - although he can look at my Kindle purchases and notice my proclivity for ancient Greek plays and classics, along with WWII military history.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I don't like any of Trump's policies.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

Jacck said:


> Tikoo Tuba, an alien from the Large Magellanic Cloud galaxy. Is it correct?


Did you find my notebook that was stolen ?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

On the whole, I can't criticize Amazon as an online retailer. But I am shopping elsewhere for used CDs to avoid the 4 dollar per item shipping charge. As far as the company work environment, evasion of taxes, and whether one individual should be allowed to amass the fortune Bezos possesses will be up to society's leaders to decide with input from the public.

Where are my examples of ad hominem attacks against Trump? I merely comment on his behavior. He can't stand any type of criticism yet he sets himself up for ridicule every time he opens his mouth. If your response was meant as a lighthearted joke in turn, I accept it as so. I have no interest in defending Chuck Schumer. He's talked out of both sides of his mouth enough to deserve a fair amount of criticism.

As far as privacy issues are concerned, there's no getting around the double edged sword of technology. But as Americans we are fortunate to be the benefactors of a constitution and a Bill Of Rights that guarantee a modicum of freedom only fantasized about in places like China, Saudi Arabia, and many other countries. The influx of billions of Saudi investment dollars into Silicon Valley and other ventures has made the business community rather reluctant to speak out against human rights abuses of the regime. The emerging atmosphere of constant surveillance in our own society is a development that will have to be continually addressed with updated laws to protect the rights of citizens.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Jacck said:


> ...In some not too distant future, he will just send little drones programmed to find you based on your biometric data and exterminate you.


Watch the video clip below for a morning chuckle...


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Tikoo Tuba said:


> Did you find my notebook that was stolen ?


I hope it wasn't the one titled _To Serve Man_.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Room2201974 said:


> I hope it wasn't the one titled _To Serve Man_.


On a related note, here's a snippet from Wiki's entry on Alferd Packer. For more details on Mr. Packer, who certainly had a healthy appetite, see the entry.
-----------------------------------------------
In 1977, the US Secretary of Agriculture, Bob Bergland, attempted to terminate a contract for the department's cafeteria food service but was prevented by the General Services Administration (GSA). To embarrass the GSA, Bergland and his employees convened a press conference on August 10, 1977, to unveil a plaque naming the executive cafeteria "The Alferd Packer Memorial Grill", announcing that Packer's life exemplified the spirit and fare of the cafeteria and would "serve all mankind". The event was covered on ABC-TV Evening News by Barbara Walters. The stratagem succeeded, and the contracts were terminated soon thereafter.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

*Before Clearview Became a Police Tool, It Was a Secret Plaything of the Rich*

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/05/technology/clearview-investors.html


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

A friend of mine sold his Apple stock and lost money, because he doesn't like how Apple and other tech companies are enabling China to use the internet and other technology to abuse human rights.

Individual human rights matter greatly.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2020)

millionrainbows said:


> A friend of mine sold his Apple stock and lost money, because he doesn't like how Apple and other tech companies are enabling China to use the internet and other technology to abuse human rights.
> 
> Individual human rights matter greatly.


They do matter. Unfortunately, it is far more than just Apple that sources their labor to China. This pandemic has made it abundantly clear just how much we rely economically on a country that has repeatedly proven itself untrustworthy, to say the least. The recent issue with the NBA kowtowing was one of the biggest revelations prior to the COVID-19 pandemic outbreak. It goes far beyond just Apple and other tech companies (although it is funny that Apple's CEO will trash-talk certain states here in the U.S. over gay rights but has no qualms about continuing his business with China).


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Clearview is back in the news: The ACLU sues Clearview AI, calling the tool an 'unprecedented violation' of privacy rights


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

In short we are


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