# 1980-2000 Listening Group - Selection Thread



## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*1980-2000 Listening Group - Selection Thread*

The 1980-2000 Listening Group is forming for the purpose of selecting outstanding works (masterpieces) and then slowly, one work per week, doing an immersive exploration and discussion of those works.

Each member of the group will take turns presenting and leading discussion of works that they are individually passionate about.

Of course there are some details we'll need to work through but for now let's use this thread to recruit members and to begin a discussion of the outstanding works of this time frame.

*Selection Process*
This group is meant to be somewhat casual in nature. We aren't canonizing these works or anything like that, BUT, we want to at least focus on those works that stand out as being masterpieces for you individually, or for the music community. Also, ideally, we will have music from a variety of composers.

Each member of the group can submit up to 10 works. We will then see which works have been submitted the most to determine the bulk of our selection music. BUT...

If desired, each member will also be able to designate 1 of those 10 as an obscure favorite (or as a sure thing ). _That _work will automatically make it onto the final listening list. This is intended to enable some lesser known works to make it onto the list. That way we avoid just listening to works everyone has heard of.

The final number of selections will be determined by how many members join and how much interest there is. I am tentatively planning on 20 works.

*Timetable*
Let's spend the next several weeks in discussion. People can submit trial lists during this time. When things are getting more settled we'll announce a deadline for final submission. After that we'll determine a schedule and who is presenting each week and get started on the official Listening Group Thread.

*Why 1980-2000?*
The dust really hasn't settled on the music of 2000-2020, so, in an effort to still have music that is contemporary and recent, but that can at least be viewed through a _short_ lense of time, for now we're focusing on 1980-2000.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Here's a list of 10 works taken from our TC Top 200 Recommended Post-1950 Works. I do have one composer twice, but that's fine for now.

Ligeti: Études pour piano (1985-2001)
Adams: Harmonielehre (1985)
Lutoslawski: Symphony No. 3 (1983)
Vasks: Violin Concert, 'Distant Light' (1997)
Boulez: Sur Incises (1996-1998)
Schnittke: Viola Concerto (1985)
Gubaidulina: Viola Concerto (1996)
Rautavaara: Symphony No. 7 'Angel of Light' (1994)
Murail: Désintégrations (1983)
Schnittke: Choir Concerto (1985)

This does raise a question. The first work, Ligeti's Études pour piano, is actually a set of 18 etudes in 3 books. I think we generally view this as one overall work, but for this project, would it count as a single work? Also at least one etude was apparently written in 2001. Is that an issue?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Richard Kastle's Neo-Romantic works:

"He conducted the premieres of his Titanic Symphony and Symphony No. 5 at Lincoln Center on November 6, 1999."
"Royce Concerto is the second studio album by American classical pianist and composer Richard Kastle. It is also a three movement concerto for piano and orchestra, that was composed by Kastle and included in the album. The Philharmonia Orchestra also performs on the album released by Yum Recordings on September 30, 1997."





















"Richard Kastle plays "The Mirror Pool" with the Philharmonia Orchestra. The piece was composed at Yosemite National Park on the Mist Trail between Vernal and Nevada Falls. Featured on the Royce Concerto album, it is the second movement of Kastle's Piano Concerto No 6. There were no photos available from the spot where the piece was composed."


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Hey! I actually spent some time making a list of 10 pieces that I think are great, important, modern and interesting!

Takemitsu: Towards the Sea (1981)
Carter: Changes (1983)
Davies: Symphony no. 3 (1984)
Nono: Caminante...Ayacucho (1987)
Denisov: Au plus haut des cieux (1987)
Berio: Sequenza XI (1988)
Kurtag: Grabstein für Stephan (1989)
Saariaho: Du cristal (1989)
Nordheim: Violin concerto (1996)
Lindberg: Feria (1997)


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

mmsbls said:


> Here's a list of 10 works taken from our TC Top 200 Recommended Post-1950 Works. I do have one composer twice, but that's fine for now.
> 
> Ligeti: Études pour piano (1985-2001)
> Adams: Harmonielehre (1985)
> ...


We'd view it as a single work, and it's not an issue that it was completed in 01.


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

Boulez: Répons (1980, rev. 1982/84)
Glass: Koyaanisqatsi (1981)
Nono: Prometeo (1981-84, rev. 1985)
Reich: Different Trains (1988)
Schnittke: Peer Gynt (1988)
Dhomont: Forêt profonde (1994-96)
Goebbels: Eislermaterial (1998)
Twining: Chrysalid Requiem (1999)
Ligeti: Études pour piano (1985, 1988-94, 1995-2001)
Saariaho: L'Amour de loin (1999-2000)

My "obscure choice" would be the Dhomont, but I'm not even so sure it is very obscure in contemporary/electronic music circles. It is extraordinary regardless.

I also excluded _Les espaces acoustiques_ since Grisey composed the majority of the 6 pieces before 1980, even if he did not complete the entire cycle until 1985. But if it is eligible, it would definitely make my list.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

For easy reference, here’s the works from 1980-2000 from the first 100 of “TC’s Top 200 Post 1950 Works”

6. Ligeti: Études pour piano (1985-2001)
11. Grisey: Les Espaces Acoustiques (1974-85)
12. Takemitsu: From Me Flows What You Call Time (1990)
13. Adams: Harmonielehre (1985)
15. Ligeti: Violin Concerto (1992)
16. Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991)
17. Lutoslawski: Symphony No. 3 (1983)
23. Stockhausen: LICHT (1977-2003)
24. Pärt: Te Deum (1985)
27. Boulez: Répons (1984)
31. Harvey: Mortuos Plango, Vivos Voco (1980)
34. Adams: Nixon in China (1987)
35. Boulez: Anthèmes II (1997)
36. Gubaidulina: Offertorium (1980)
40. Saariaho: L' Amour de Loin (2000)
43. Reich: Different Trains (1988)
45. Messiaen: St. François d'Assise (1975-83)
49. Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995/2001)
51. Ligeti: Piano Concerto (1985-8)
53. Nono: La lontananza nostalgica utopica futura (1988)
54. Vasks: Violin Concert, 'Distant Light' (1997)
57. Murail: Gondwana (1980)
59. Boulez: Sur Incises (1996-1998)
62. Sciarrino: Allegoria della Notte (1985)
64. Schnittke: Viola Concerto (1985)
67. Chin: Xi (1998)
72. Gubaidulina: Viola Concerto (1996)
79. Grisey: Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil (1998)
80. Carter: Symphonia: Sum fluxae pretium spei (1996)
87. Gubaidulina: Canticle of the Sun (Sonnengesang) (1997)
89. Ferneyhough: Terrain (1992)
91. Pintscher: Five Pieces for Orchestra (1997)
92. Adams: Harmonium (1981)
95. Feldman: For Philip Guston (1984)
97. Saariaho: 'Nymphéa' (Jardin Secret III) (1987)
99. Ustvolskaya: Symphony No. 3 "Jesus Messiah, Save Us" (1983)


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

My initial list would include works that I know well and love. But, honestly, one of the appeals of this listening group is getting to know works I don't know as well. Anyhoo, my initial list would include:

Adams: Harmonielehre (1985)
Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991)
Harvey: Mortuos Plango, Vivos Voco (1980)
Gubaidulina: Viola Concerto (1996)
Corigliano: Symphony No. 1 (1988-89)
Pärt: Fratres (1980)
Rihm: Phantom und Eskapade (1994)
Gubaidulina: Viola Concerto (1996)
Adams: Nixon in China (1987)
Glass: Koyaanisqatsi (1982)


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Thoughts on the selection process? Will this work? Is better to just let each person pick a few works that they’ll present and not try to get works selected that are the most popular?


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

20centrfuge said:


> Thoughts on the selection process? Will this work? Is better to just let each person pick a few works that they'll present and not try to get works selected that are the most popular?


Hey there. I'm not sure it will work. The amount of pieces that can be submitted with a list of 10, will make listening to them more like homework you don't want to do. The thread of obscure works is working nicely, but this one is potentially monumental. I'm not very comfortable in making decisions on what are the outstanding masterpieces of the world. How about submitting only one piece each but the ones on the final list have to be of different genres (solo instrumental, chamber music, concerto, orchestral, vocal, electroacoustic...)


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I must not have made it very understandable in the OP. We'd use everyone's lists of 10, tally up the entries that were selected more than once, and THOSE entries would be the ones that could make the final list. Not everything everyone submits would make the final list.

But, now I'm not sure there will be much overlap at all, so it creates a different set of problems. Ugh.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

Here's ten that come readily to mind. 

Lutoslawski Symphony #3 (1983)
Feldman For Philip Guston (1984)
Boulez Repons (1985)
Ligeti Piano Etudes (1985-2001)
Reich Different Trains (1988)
Messiaen Saint François d'Assise (1983)
Adams Nixon in China (1987)
Saariaho Graal théâtre(1994)
Schnittke Viola concerto (1985)
Berio Voci (Folk Songs II) (1984)


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Andriessen: De Materie (1985-1988)
Boulez: Répons (1981-1985)
Feldman: Piano and String Quartet (1985)
Gubaidulina: Canticle of the Sun (1997)
Haas: in vain (2000)
Manoury: Pluton (1988-1989)
Murail: Désintégrations (1982)
Penderecki: Symphony No. 3 (1988-1995)
Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008)
Sarriaho: L'Amour de loin (2000)


Is the Rihm allowed? If not, then replace with Dhomont: Forête profonde (1994-1996)


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

20centrfuge said:


> I must not have made it very understandable in the OP. We'd use everyone's lists of 10, tally up the entries that were selected more than once, and THOSE entries would be the ones that could make the final list. Not everything everyone submits would make the final list.
> 
> But, now I'm not sure there will be much overlap at all, so it creates a different set of problems. Ugh.


As someone who is more interested in the esoteric, I think your "obscure pick" idea is a good one. I personally enjoy the thrill of listening to pieces and composers new to me, even if I don't like the music. I would still be down to re-listen to works by Boulez, Reich, Ligeti, etc. as likely consensus choices, but it would be personally less exciting. It seems like this thread is trying to examine both the famous and the obscure, and I'm not entirely sure that's what everyone wants. But I could be wrong.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I'm happy to include both works selected by more than one person as well as "obscure" works designated by a single member. Perhaps we can see how many works have multiple nominations and then decide on including a set number of "obscure favorites."


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

As I understand from the OP, I can pick one work that would automatically be my "obscure" favourite. That will be Malcolm Arnold's Symphony 9.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm wondering about the length of works as I am inclined to choose operas for a couple of composers who I like a lot - it sort of compensates for probably only getting one of their works through. Is there to be a length limit?


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I don't intend for there to be a length limit since we will only be examining one work per week, but use common sense, for example, I don't think anyone really wants to hear a 6 hour meditation.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*How does this sound to everyone:*

Pick two works that you'd like to present to the group. Two works that you would consider to be exceptional works from 1980-2000.

So far we have interest from about 7 people. I bet we'll get interest from several more. That way we'll have a list of about 20-25 works. May they be "obscure" or critically acclaimed works, as long as they are works you love and that you would like to present and discuss.

We'll set a schedule and take turns doing in-depth presentation/discussion of said works.
*
Whad'ya think people??????*


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

20centrfuge said:


> *How does this sound to everyone:*
> 
> Pick two works that you'd like to present to the group. Two works that you would consider to be exceptional works from 1980-2000.
> 
> ...


I'm ok with 2 works. What I wonder is if some would feel more intimidated to 'present' works, if they just like it, and what more is there to be said? Maybe they don't know or are not interested in the historical context or technique that went into it, etc. Sometimes the historical context could lead a listener to a certain bias and not trust their own judgement, but sometimes it helps to appreciate. Maybe have the presentation and discussion just as optional. You may get more people willing to participate without the pressure to 'sell' their choices.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I tend to agree with Phil loves classical about presenting works. I think it's reasonable for people to nominate a work and make some simple statements about their reaction or feeling towards the work. Then others can add comments. Of course, anyone wishing to make a more detailed presentation could start with that as well.

It's possible that some of us will select the same work. There is overlap in some lists. If that happens, maybe one person simply chooses another work.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Presenting a work gives me the idea of surfing the net for info on the work and I know where to go: the publisher. I often read about the composer or anything on the work when I listen, so no problem. My own words are usually few. My new thing on TC is fronting music with classical guitar. That's a warning


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Presenting a work gives me the idea of surfing the net for info on the work and I know where to go: the publisher. I often read about the composer or anything on the work when I listen, so no problem. My own words are usually few. My new thing on TC is fronting music with classical guitar. That's a warning


Thanks for letting me know. I'll keep my distance. :lol:


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Let me present to you:

Kurtag: Grabstein für Stephan 
&
Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (just found out it's 2 works linked together)

from the year of our lord 1989.

I'm ready!


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

mmsbls said:


> I tend to agree with Phil loves classical about presenting works. I think it's reasonable for people to nominate a work and make some simple statements about their reaction or feeling towards the work. Then others can add comments. Of course, anyone wishing to make a more detailed presentation could start with that as well.
> 
> It's possible that some of us will select the same work. There is overlap in some lists. If that happens, maybe one person simply chooses another work.


point taken, we'll make it optional. I just don't want this to be me running the thread. I'd prefer if everyone has a share in it


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

My two obscure works:

Manoury: Pluton (1988-1989)
Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008)

To the extent that I can, I'll do a little "presentation" of sorts on these two pieces. Mainly a summary of what I read online/in CD liner notes plus some observations and opinions of my own.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

So far:

Arnold: Symphony 9 (1986) (Phil loves classical)
Kurtag: Grabstein für Stephan (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
Manoury: Pluton (1988-89) (calvinpv)
Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) (calvinpv)
Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)

TC members part of the group (presumably)
20centrfuge
calvinpv
mmsbls
Enthusiast
Kjetil Heggelund
PeterfromLA
Phil loves classical
Trout


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*1980-2000 Listening Group - Selection Thread (Revised)*

The 1980-2000 Listening Group is for the purpose of exploring Contemporary music from that time frame. This is a chance for new music enthusiasts to hang out and discuss music and to hear music they don't individually know. Even if a member is familiar with a piece that is being presented, the idea is that new exposure and a discussion of things like different recordings, program notes, historical context, or the thoughts of those in the listening group will shed some new light on the work.

Each member of the group will take turns *initiating *discussion of works that they are individually passionate about. This could be as little as listing the work and giving a few thoughts on why you chose it to something much more involved. Each work will be presented slowly over one week. We'll develop a schedule as things get settled.

Selection Process
Pick two works from the time frame that you feel merit the attention of the group. Each work could be an obscure favorite or a critically acclaimed work. Hopefully we will get enough participation to have at least 20 works to listen to.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

For my two I will go for Birtwistle's Cry of Anubis (a fairly lightweight work and not my favourite of his music but very effective and accessible) and Benjamin's Palimpsests.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Enthusiast said:


> For my two I will go for Birtwistle's Cry of Anubis (a fairly lightweight work and not my favourite of his music but very effective and accessible) and Benjamin's Palimpsests.


I was looking forward to an opera from you. I'm considering submitting an opera myself. I hope my previous comment about length didn't dissuade you!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ I think an opera might be unmanageable, especially those who don't know the works put forward will probably need more that one hearing to get close to an informed view of it. This will be difficult enough for a 20 minute piece, let alone one of 2-3 hours. Also the opera I was thinking of (Written on Skin by George Benjamin) was written after 2000.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*So far:*

Arnold: Symphony 9 (1986) (Phil loves classical)
Benjamin: Palimpsests (2000-2002) (Enthusiast)
Birtwistle: Cry of Anubis (1994) (Enthusiast)
Kurtag: Grabstein für Stephan (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
Manoury: Pluton (1988-89) (calvinpv)
Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) (calvinpv)
Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)

TC members participating of the group (presumably)
20centrfuge
Blancrocher
calvinpv
mmsbls
Enthusiast
Kjetil Heggelund
PeterfromLA
Phil loves classical
Trout


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Górecki - Kleines Requiem für eine Polka, Op. 66, piano and 13 instruments (1993)
Gubaidulina - Jetzt immer Schnee for chamber ensemble and chamber choir (1993)


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

The two I'll pick are 

Thomas Adès: Living Toys (1993)
John Adams: Harmonielehre (1985)


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*So far:*

Adams: Harmonielehre (1985) (20centrfuge)
Adès: Living Toys (1993) (20centrfuge)
Arnold: Symphony 9 (1986) (Phil loves classical)
Benjamin: Palimpsests (2000-2002) (Enthusiast)
Birtwistle: Cry of Anubis (1994) (Enthusiast)
Górecki: Kleines Requiem für eine Polka, Op. 66, piano and 13 instruments (1993) (Art Rock)
Gubaidulina: Jetzt immer Schnee for chamber ensemble and chamber choir (1993) (Art Rock)
Kurtag: Grabstein für Stephan (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
Manoury: Pluton (1988-89) (calvinpv)
Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) (calvinpv)
Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)

TC members participating in the group (presumably)
20centrfuge
Art Rock
Blancrocher
calvinpv
mmsbls
Enthusiast
Kjetil Heggelund
PeterfromLA
Phil loves classical
Trout


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I'm on vacation and probably would prefer to wait until I get back this weekend to nominate my two. I assume that's not a problem?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

My other choice would be Ligeti's Piano Concerto. I'm not so sure about including operas. I tend to lose focus, and don't really want to getting to read the libretto or lyrics. I can only focus on samples if that were the case.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

mmsbls said:


> I'm on vacation and probably would prefer to wait until I get back this weekend to nominate my two. I assume that's not a problem?


No problem. Thanks for being part of this, mmsbls!


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

20centrfuge, could I be part of this group without nominating?

I know *some* music from this time period, but none well enough to feel comfortable leading a discussion about.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> 20centrfuge, could I be part of this group without nominating?
> 
> I know *some* music from this time period, but none well enough to feel comfortable leading a discussion about.


Yes, by all means. Welcome to the group and Thank you!

Also, if you like a piece from this time frame, we could add it and just let the group loose on the discussion.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I like these:
Takemitsu: From Me Flows What You Call Time (1990)
Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991)

Maybe if you want something more obscure go with And Then I Knew 'Twas Wind (1992) instead for Takemitsu. I could actually lead a discussion on this one. Your choice.

Thank you for allowing me to participate. This will be a great learning opportunity and an enjoyable experience.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*So far:*

Adams: Harmonielehre (1985) (20centrfuge)
Adès: Living Toys (1993) (20centrfuge)
Arnold: Symphony 9 (1986) (Phil loves classical)
Benjamin: Palimpsests (2000-2002) (Enthusiast)
Birtwistle: Cry of Anubis (1994) (Enthusiast)
Górecki: Kleines Requiem für eine Polka, Op. 66, piano and 13 instruments (1993) (Art Rock)
Gubaidulina: Jetzt immer Schnee for chamber ensemble and chamber choir (1993) (Art Rock)
Kurtag: Grabstein für Stephan (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
Ligeti: Piano Concerto (1988) (Phil loves classical)
Manoury: Pluton (1988-89) (calvinpv)
Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991) (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) (calvinpv)
Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
Takemitsu: From Me Flows What You Call Time (1990) (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)

TC members participating in the group
20centrfuge
Art Rock
Blancrocher
BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist
calvinpv
mmsbls
Enthusiast
Kjetil Heggelund
PeterfromLA
Phil loves classical
Trout


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## Ravn (Jan 6, 2020)

Thought it would be nice to add two pieces for choir. Both of them are quite short as well.

Krzysztof Penderecki - Song of the Cherubim (1986)
Knut Nystedt - Immortal Bach (1988)


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

Most of the works on my list are quite long, so I found a shorter one that I also love to substitute:

Dhomont: Forêt profonde (1994-96)
Vivier: Lonely Child (1980)


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

I'd like to participate as well if there's still room. 

Ben Johnston: String Quartet No. 7 (1984)
Corigliano: Symphony No. 1 (1988-1989)


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Schnittke, Violin Concerto 4 (1984)
Schnittke: Viola Concerto (1985)
Ligeti: Études for piano (1985-2001)
Ligeti, Piano Concerto (1985–88)
Ligeti, Violin Concerto (1989–93)
Ligeti, Trio for Violin, Horn and Piano (1982)
Gubaidulina, "Offertorium" Violin Concerto (1980, rev. 1982, 1986)
Gubaidulina: Viola Concerto (1996)
Lutoslawski, Piano Concerto (1987–88)
Saariaho, Graal théâtre (1994)


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Blancrocher said:


> Schnittke, Violin Concerto 4 (1984)
> Schnittke: Viola Concerto (1985)
> Ligeti: Études for piano (1985-2001)
> Ligeti, Piano Concerto (1985-88)
> ...


Hi Blancrocher,

Could you narrow it to 2? We made a change to the selection process.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Ligeti, Etudes
Lutoslawski, Piano Concerto


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*So far:*

1. Adams: Harmonielehre (1985) (20centrfuge)
2. Adès: Living Toys (1993) (20centrfuge)
3. Arnold: Symphony 9 (1986) (Phil loves classical)
4. Benjamin: Palimpsests (2000-2002) (Enthusiast)
5. Birtwistle: Cry of Anubis (1994) (Enthusiast)
6. Corigliano: Symphony No. 1 (1988-1989) (SuperTonic)
7. Dhomont: Forêt profonde (1994-96) (Trout)
8. Górecki: Kleines Requiem für eine Polka, Op. 66, piano and 13 instruments (1993) (Art Rock)
9. Gubaidulina: Jetzt immer Schnee for chamber ensemble and chamber choir (1993) (Art Rock)
10. Johnston: String Quartet No. 7 (1984) (SuperTonic)
11. Kurtag: Grabstein für Stephan (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
12. Ligeti: Etudes (Blancrocher)
13. Ligeti: Piano Concerto (1988) (Phil loves classical)
14. Lutoslawski: Piano Concerto (Blancrocher)
15. Manoury: Pluton (1988-89) (calvinpv)
16. Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991) (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
17. Penderecki: Song of the Cherubim (1986) (Ravn)
18. Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) (calvinpv)
19. Nystedt: Immortal Bach (1988) (Ravn)
20. Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
21. Takemitsu: From Me Flows What You Call Time (1990) (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
22. Vivier: Lonely Child (1980) (Trout)

TC members participating in the group
20centrfuge
Art Rock
Blancrocher
BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist
calvinpv
Enthusiast
Kjetil Heggelund
mmsbls
PeterfromLA
Phil loves classical
Ravn
SuperTonic
Trout


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I think we'll cap it at 30 entries. I anticipate 2 more from PeterfromLA and 2 more from mmsbls which will put us at 26 entries.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

I'll pick two works, each from a composer not yet mentioned in the above lists, both for viola and ensemble/orchestra:

Berio, Voci II
Schnittke, Viola Concerto


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I guess I won't wait until this weekend. I'll nominate:

Boulez: Sur Incises (1996-1998)
Murail: Désintégrations (1983)


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*So far:*

1. Adams: Harmonielehre (1985) (20centrfuge)
2. Adès: Living Toys (1993) (20centrfuge)
3. Arnold: Symphony 9 (1986) (Phil loves classical)
4. Benjamin: Palimpsests (2000-2002) (Enthusiast)
5. Berio, Voci II (1984) (PeterfromLA)
6. Birtwistle: Cry of Anubis (1994) (Enthusiast)
7. Boulez: Sur Incises (1996-1998) (mmsbls)
8. Corigliano: Symphony No. 1 (1988-1989) (SuperTonic)
9. Dhomont: Forêt profonde (1994-96) (Trout)
10. Górecki: Kleines Requiem für eine Polka, Op. 66, piano and 13 instruments (1993) (Art Rock)
11. Gubaidulina: Jetzt immer Schnee for chamber ensemble and chamber choir (1993) (Art Rock)
12. Johnston: String Quartet No. 7 (1984) (SuperTonic)
13. Kurtag: Grabstein für Stephan (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
14. Ligeti: Etudes (1985-2001) (Blancrocher)
15. Ligeti: Piano Concerto (1988) (Phil loves classical)
16. Lutoslawski: Piano Concerto (1988) (Blancrocher)
17. Manoury: Pluton (1988-89) (calvinpv)
18. Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991) (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
19. Murail: Désintégrations (1983) (mmsbls)
20. Penderecki: Song of the Cherubim (1986) (Ravn)
21. Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) (calvinpv)
22. Nystedt: Immortal Bach (1988) (Ravn)
23. Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
24. Schnittke, Viola Concerto (1985) (PeterfromLA)
25. Takemitsu: From Me Flows What You Call Time (1990) (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
26. Vivier: Lonely Child (1980) (Trout)

TC members participating in the group
20centrfuge
Art Rock
Blancrocher
BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist
calvinpv
Enthusiast
Kjetil Heggelund
mmsbls
PeterfromLA
Phil loves classical
Ravn
SuperTonic
Trout


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I think we have a nice list with lots of variety and lots of different composers. I only know about 7 of these 26 entries. *I am curious how many of the 26 you each know.* Hopefully it's enough to keep things interesting for each of you.

What feedback or input would you like to give before we make a schedule and kick this thing off? I'm tentatively thinking we'll start on Sunday. I intend to randomly order the members of the group and that would set the order for the pieces we listen to. In the off chance that we have a couple more people join, I'll throw them into the mix.

Lastly, I just have to say how excited I am to have camaraderie with all of you over contemporary music. I feel like I don't have anyone to talk to about it where I live or with any of my friends. Few of my friends really love classical music. And of those that do like classical music, I'm the only one who seems to care about recent music.

Thank you to all of you.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I know only 4 (my 2 selections, Ligeti's Piano Concerto, and Schnittke's Viola Concerto), though I have heard about and listened to parts of Boulez's _Sur Incises_, Ligeti's _Etudes_ and Johnston's SQ #7, which would bring the total up to 7. In any case, the healthy majority of the works (and many of the composers) on the list are completely new to me.

I am very excited to participate; thanks again 20centrfuge for hosting this project.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I have heard half of them, seven I know pretty well.


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

I've heard 20 of them, and I'm not really fond of most of them. I'm not sure if I will participate.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

20centrfuge said:


> *So far:*
> 
> 1. Adams: Harmonielehre (1985) (20centrfuge)
> 2. Adès: Living Toys (1993) (20centrfuge)
> ...


I know about 15 quite well. There are a couple more that I have heard and actively disliked (so being "forced" to try again may be interesting) and others I have heard but could not claim to know of have an opinion on. It would have been nice to get a few more works that I am unfamiliar with but, on the other hand, I need to declare that I will be away for a month from late March.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Kilgore Trout said:


> I've heard 20 of them, and I'm not really fond of most of them. I'm not sure if I will participate.


This brings up a question I have for 20 centrfuge. Are members that didn't submit works allowed to vote/nominate? I see a pro and con with this. A pro is we have a more diverse opinion rather than a small sample of 14 members voting. A con is that someone who hadn't listened to most may vote and/or just hates contemporary music, and should that opinion count? I see this all coming down to a question of how eclectic opinions are.

The idea of most of 14 individuals who hadn't heard over half the works suddenly making a decision on which become canonical masterpieces sounds like a pretty daunting task (I know it's for fun, and would go through it anyway either way). I can't make up my mind which is better, a small group of nerds, or a more wider opinion.

I heard 14 of the works, several I listened to more often, most only to get a gist of what it's about.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Aren't we supposed to just listen and discuss? Meaning: no voting...I suspect all the pieces are so called masterpieces by some of the most well-known composers. The whole thing could take a while...


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Kilgore Trout said:


> I've heard 20 of them, and I'm not really fond of most of them. I'm not sure if I will participate.


20 out of 26 seems like dedication for someone who dislikes most of them. I wonder what you were hoping for (and perhaps we can have some - ideally works you haven't heard but by composers you like - of that, too).


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Phil loves classical said:


> This brings up a question I have for 20 centrfuge. Are members that didn't submit works allowed to vote/nominate? I see a pro and con with this. A pro is we have a more diverse opinion rather than a small sample of 14 members voting. A con is that someone who hadn't listened to most may vote and/or just hates contemporary music, and should that opinion count? I see this all coming down to a question of how eclectic opinions are.
> 
> The idea of most of 14 individuals who hadn't heard over half the works suddenly making a decision on which become canonical masterpieces sounds like a pretty daunting task (I know it's for fun, and would go through it anyway either way). I can't make up my mind which is better, a small group of nerds, or a more wider opinion.
> 
> I heard 14 of the works, several I listened to more often, most only to get a gist of what it's about.


Imagine a group of friends getting together to listen to music and enjoy a good beverage or two. That's the kind of vibe I'm hoping for for this group. Some of you have a lot of experience with contemporary music, others much less. Of course, this group won't appeal to everyone, but hopefully we have a good mix of lesser heard gems and proven standards that it will appeal to most of us.

IF, that is not the case for you individually, then please speak up and we can re-examine our list. Also, IF people want to make substitutions to the list, it's not too late.

We aren't canonizing works or saying "these works are THE best." We are just listening to good music and talking about it. I hope the people who submitted works will want to say a thing or two about them and maybe do a brief internet search for some program notes, but that's all totally optional. We'll make it work either way.

For me personally, this is about camaraderie, hearing music I don't know, and getting to REALLY know works that I somewhat know.

PS Once we kick this thing off officially, anyone can still join the party but we won't add any more works to the list.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm ready and I got beer


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Since we're capping at 30 and have 26 filled, I suppose we could get creative with the remaining four music spots if anyone as any ideas?

We have no Maxwell Davies, Edison Denisov, Brian Ferneyhough, just to name some of many composers whose works could be added to the list


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

I'm a bit confused by the focus of the discussion. At first it seemed to be more about masterpieces, now it's more about undiscovered works, is that right? If so, perhaps I should withdraw the Schnittke, as it is very well-known? I could replace it with a less known Schnittke work, like his Fifth Symphony (though it's not completely unknown... but it's only had two or so recordings, compared to the ubiquitous Viola Concerto).


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Initially it was all about masterpieces. Now it’s essentially about good music (which can be masterpieces and lesser known works). We only ask that what you submit is music you care about.

I apologize for the confusion. After the OP there was discussion and a lot of feeling that obscure works needed more representation. That’s why we made the change.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

There are many masterpieces in the list. That they are also not widely known is a big plus.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

20centrfuge said:


> Since we're capping at 30 and have 26 filled, I suppose we could get creative with the remaining four music spots if anyone as any ideas?
> 
> We have no Maxwell Davies, Edison Denisov, Brian Ferneyhough, just to name some of many composers whose works could be added to the list


I'm all for adding something by Maxwell Davies (the Strathclyde Concertos are mostly quite approachable, symphonies 1-6 are a bit more rigorous, the quartets came after our time window) ... and not averse to a bit of Ferneyhough.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

Thanks, so I'd like to replace the Viola Concerto with Schnittke's Concerto Grosso #4/Fifth Symphony. It's not as well known as the VC, but it deserves to be.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*So far:*

1. Adams: Harmonielehre (1985) (20centrfuge)
2. Adès: Living Toys (1993) (20centrfuge)
3. Arnold: Symphony 9 (1986) (Phil loves classical)
4. Benjamin: Palimpsests (2000-2002) (Enthusiast)
5. Berio, Voci II (1984) (PeterfromLA)
6. Birtwistle: Cry of Anubis (1994) (Enthusiast)
7. Boulez: Sur Incises (1996-1998) (mmsbls)
8. Corigliano: Symphony No. 1 (1988-1989) (SuperTonic)
9. Dhomont: Forêt profonde (1994-96) (Trout)
10. Górecki: Kleines Requiem für eine Polka, Op. 66, piano and 13 instruments (1993) (Art Rock)
11. Gubaidulina: Jetzt immer Schnee for chamber ensemble and chamber choir (1993) (Art Rock)
12. Johnston: String Quartet No. 7 (1984) (SuperTonic)
13. Kurtag: Grabstein für Stephan (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
14. Ligeti: Etudes (1985-2001) (Blancrocher)
15. Ligeti: Piano Concerto (1988) (Phil loves classical)
16. Lutoslawski: Piano Concerto (1988) (Blancrocher)
17. Manoury: Pluton (1988-89) (calvinpv)
18. Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991) (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
19. Murail: Désintégrations (1983) (mmsbls)
20. Penderecki: Song of the Cherubim (1986) (Ravn)
21. Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) (calvinpv)
22. Nystedt: Immortal Bach (1988) (Ravn)
23. Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
24. Schnittke: Concerto Grosso #4/Fifth Symphony (1988) (PeterFromLA)
25. Takemitsu: From Me Flows What You Call Time (1990) (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
26. Vivier: Lonely Child (1980) (Trout)

TC members participating in the group
20centrfuge
Art Rock
Blancrocher
BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist
calvinpv
Enthusiast
Kjetil Heggelund
mmsbls
PeterFromLA
Phil loves classical
Ravn
SuperTonic
Trout


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm all for adding something by Maxwell Davies (the Strathclyde Concertos are mostly quite approachable, symphonies 1-6 are a bit more rigorous, the quartets came after our time window) ... and not averse to a bit of Ferneyhough.


I'm really fond of the Strathclyde No.9. I don't know most of the others too well. His Trumpet Concerto is really great as well.

I'm inclined to let those that are more versed in contemporary music than I am, pick those last few spots. Are there some genres we are missing? Perhaps we just name one opera and cap at 25 and let the opera take 2-3 weeks.

Just some thoughts. I am open to whatever.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Some big names (imo) missing, with suggested works:

Rautavaara - Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light" (1994)
Sallinen - Songs of Life and Death, for baritone, choir and orchestra, Op. 69 (1995)

EDIT: come to think of it, can I switch my Gorecki recommendation for the Sallinen?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

20centrfuge said:


> I'm really fond of the Strathclyde No.9. I don't know most of the others too well. His Trumpet Concerto is really great as well.
> 
> I'm inclined to let those that are more versed in contemporary music than I am, pick those last few spots. Are there some genres we are missing? Perhaps we just name one opera and cap at 25 and let the opera take 2-3 weeks.
> 
> Just some thoughts. I am open to whatever.


I almost wrote Trumpet Concerto! Strathclyde 9 is beautiful. *You *should choose one of them!


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*So far:*

1. Adams: Harmonielehre (1985) (20centrfuge)
2. Adès: Living Toys (1993) (20centrfuge)
3. Arnold: Symphony 9 (1986) (Phil loves classical)
4. Benjamin: Palimpsests (2000-2002) (Enthusiast)
5. Berio, Voci II (1984) (PeterfromLA)
6. Birtwistle: Cry of Anubis (1994) (Enthusiast)
7. Boulez: Sur Incises (1996-1998) (mmsbls)
8. Corigliano: Symphony No. 1 (1988-1989) (SuperTonic)
9. Davies: Trumpet Concerto (1988) (Enthusiast & 20centrfuge)
10. Dhomont: Forêt profonde (1994-96) (Trout)
11. Górecki: Kleines Requiem für eine Polka, Op. 66, piano and 13 instruments (1993) (Art Rock)
12. Gubaidulina: Jetzt immer Schnee for chamber ensemble and chamber choir (1993) (Art Rock)
13. Johnston: String Quartet No. 7 (1984) (SuperTonic)
14. Kurtag: Grabstein für Stephan (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
15. Ligeti: Etudes (1985-2001) (Blancrocher)
16. Ligeti: Piano Concerto (1988) (Phil loves classical)
17. Lutoslawski: Piano Concerto (1988) (Blancrocher)
18. Manoury: Pluton (1988-89) (calvinpv)
19. Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991) (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
20. Murail: Désintégrations (1983) (mmsbls)
21. Penderecki: Song of the Cherubim (1986) (Ravn)
22. Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) (calvinpv)
23. Nystedt: Immortal Bach (1988) (Ravn)
24. Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
25. Sallinen - Songs of Life and Death, for baritone, choir and orchestra, Op. 69 (1995) (Art Rock)
26. Schnittke: Concerto Grosso #4/Fifth Symphony (1988) (PeterFromLA)
27. Takemitsu: From Me Flows What You Call Time (1990) (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
28. Vivier: Lonely Child (1980) (Trout)

TC members participating in the group
20centrfuge
Art Rock
Blancrocher
BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist
calvinpv
Enthusiast
Kjetil Heggelund
mmsbls
PeterFromLA
Phil loves classical
Portamento
Ravn
SuperTonic
Trout


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Art Rock said:


> Some big names (imo) missing, with suggested works:
> 
> Rautavaara - Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light" (1994)
> Sallinen - Songs of Life and Death, for baritone, choir and orchestra, Op. 69 (1995)
> ...


How 'bout we just add the Sallinen? Then we still have Górecki representation.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Fine with me obviously.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I suppose I should ask, 

Is everyone ok that we added the Sallinen and Maxwell Davies? It was a bit on the fly, so...

Also, I got a message from Portamento. He’s going to be part of this. That will make 30 entries.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

The Sallinen and Davies are fine with me.


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

If it is not too late, I would like to suggest these works.

Kyle Gann: Long Night (1980-81)
Peter Garland: String Quartet No. 1, “In Praise of Poor Scholars” (1986)


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

From the games I'm running, I know I am more critical than most people about meeting the pre-set conditions, but would the Benjamin: Palimpsests (2000-2002) and the Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) not be more suited for the next one (2000-2020)?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Art Rock said:


> From the games I'm running, I know I am more critical than most people about meeting the pre-set conditions, but would the Benjamin: Palimpsests (2000-2002) and the Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) not be more suited for the next one (2000-2020)?


We can make it 1980-2005 for a 1/4 century span.


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

Enthusiast said:


> 20 out of 26 seems like dedication for someone who dislikes most of them. I wonder what you were hoping for (and perhaps we can have some - ideally works you haven't heard but by composers you like - of that, too).


I don't necessarily _dislike_ these pieces, or these composers, but I think most of them wrote better pieces than the ones that have been named. My personal experience has shown me that the most famous piece by a contemporary composer is generally not their best, and most of the pieces that have been named are the "usual suspects" of these composers. The only works I would consider masterpieces (the initial post was about these) in that list are Lutoslawski and Ligeti's piano concertos (some others, like Davis' trumpet concerto, Schnittke's fifth symphony, or Messiaen's Éclairs sur l'au-delà... are also great).


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Some masterpieces are more modest. Not every masterpiece is a "towering masterpiece" and sometimes the lesser works are more accessible. But I agree that choosing a composers most famous work might not always be good but I don't see too many of those.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Kilgore Trout said:


> .....The only works I would consider masterpieces (the initial post was about these) ....


The premise was changed in post 19.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

tortkis said:


> If it is not too late, I would like to suggest these works.
> 
> Kyle Gann: Long Night (1980-81)
> Peter Garland: String Quartet No. 1, "In Praise of Poor Scholars" (1986)


It's not too late! We'll add yours and anyone else's through the end of this week.

Also, since we added the Maxwell Davies and Sallinen in an effort to round out to 30, which no longer seems like an issue, I will substitute the Davies for my Adams Harmonielehre (which kind of breaks my heart cuz I love that piece so much, but, I also think most of you already know it). I will also make the original substitution that Art Rock suggested so that he only has two works.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Art Rock said:


> From the games I'm running, I know I am more critical than most people about meeting the pre-set conditions, but would the Benjamin: Palimpsests (2000-2002) and the Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) not be more suited for the next one (2000-2020)?


I don't personally have an issue with the Rihm because the majority of its creation was within the time frame but I think for the sake if tidiness we should make a substitution. The Benjamin work is outside the time frame.

If in doubt about a work, I think we should go with the date of the premiere. Some of you may have other ideas which I'm open to.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I think Palimpsest 1 came out in 2000. Benjamin subsequently added a second palimpsest in 2002.


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> The premise was changed in post 19.


I know, but post 19 was still about "exceptional works", and that doesn't change the overall idea of my own post.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Enthusiast said:


> I think Palimpsest 1 came out in 2000. Benjamin subsequently added a second palimpsest in 2002.


It's like I'm always saying, "the world needs more palimpsests" :lol:


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Kilgore Trout, I'm very curious which two works you would submit, if you were going to participate.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*So far:*

1. Adès: Living Toys (1993) (20centrfuge)
2. Arnold: Symphony 9 (1986) (Phil loves classical)
3. Benjamin: Palimpsests (2000-2002) (Enthusiast)
4. Berio, Voci II (1984) (PeterfromLA)
5. Birtwistle: Cry of Anubis (1994) (Enthusiast)
6. Boulez: Sur Incises (1996-1998) (mmsbls)
7. Corigliano: Symphony No. 1 (1988-1989) (SuperTonic)
8. Davies: Trumpet Concerto (1988) (20centrfuge)
9. Dhomont: Forêt profonde (1994-96) (Trout)
10. Gann: Long Night (1980-81) (tortkis)
11. Garland: String Quartet No. 1, "In Praise of Poor Scholars" (1986) (tortkis)
12. Gubaidulina: Jetzt immer Schnee for chamber ensemble and chamber choir (1993) (Art Rock)
13. Johnston: String Quartet No. 7 (1984) (SuperTonic)
14. Kurtag: Grabstein für Stephan (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
15. Ligeti: Etudes (1985-2001) (Blancrocher)
16. Ligeti: Piano Concerto (1988) (Phil loves classical)
17. Lutoslawski: Piano Concerto (1988) (Blancrocher)
18. Manoury: Pluton (1988-89) (calvinpv)
19. Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991) (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
20. Murail: Désintégrations (1983) (mmsbls)
21. Penderecki: Song of the Cherubim (1986) (Ravn)
22. Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) (calvinpv)
23. Nystedt: Immortal Bach (1988) (Ravn)
24. Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) (Kjetil Heggelund)
25. Sallinen - Songs of Life and Death, for baritone, choir and orchestra, Op. 69 (1995) (Art Rock)
26. Schnittke: Concerto Grosso #4/Fifth Symphony (1988) (PeterFromLA)
27. Takemitsu: From Me Flows What You Call Time (1990) (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
28. Vivier: Lonely Child (1980) (Trout)

TC members participating in the group
20centrfuge
Art Rock
Blancrocher
BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist
calvinpv
Enthusiast
Kjetil Heggelund
mmsbls
PeterFromLA
Phil loves classical
Portamento
Ravn
SuperTonic
tortkis
Trout


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Enthusiast said:


> I think Palimpsest 1 came out in 2000. Benjamin subsequently added a second palimpsest in 2002.


Good enough for me. If everyone's ok with it, let's just leave the Benjamin and the Rihm in the mix. There's arguments both ways.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

If there is still some discomfort with including the Benjamin work he could be removed. Although he wrote some precociously good music before that he came of age as a composer in around 2000 and I'd be reluctant to do him if it is not with his best music. He could be replaced by Julian Anderson - perhaps The Stations of the Sun or Alhambra Fantasy - if necessary.


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

20centrfuge said:


> Kilgore Trout, I'm very curious which two works you would submit, if you were going to participate.


This would be very hard. If I don't take into consideration composers who have already been named, Xenakis' _Lichens_ (1984) and something by Kagel (either _Etudes_ (1996), _... den 24. xii. 1931_ (1991) or _Musik für tasteninstrumente und orchester_ (1988)) would probably be priorities, but other contenders could be Brett Dean (_Voices of angels_ (1996) and _Game Over_ (2000), but he's mostly a composer from the 2000's), Pelle Gudmundsen-Holmgreen (_Concerto Grosso_ (1990)), Hans Werner Henze (Symphony n.7 (1984)), Avet Terteryan (Symphony n.6 (1981)), Lasse Thoresen (_Symphonic concerto _ (1986)), Heiner Goebbels (_Schwarz auf Weiss_ (1996)), Friedrich Cerha (_Monumentum für Karl Prantl_ (1988) or _Impulses_ (1993)), Boguslaw Schaeffer (Piano concerto n.3 (1990))... There are too much to chose from.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

I looked at my notes and also at the score of the Benjamin. The piece was actually written 1998-2002. So it's in the same legal gray zone as my Rihm work.

I'll replace _Jagden und Formen_ if others want me to, though it's one hell of a piece that has excited me like few other contemporary works. Everyone should hear it, though I'm guessing many of you already have.

I'll think it over more carefully later today, because I think a couple of you have heard this, but for now, my replacement will be Rădulescu: String Quartet No. 5 "before the universe was born", Op. 89 (1990-1995)


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Let's keep the Benjamin and Rihm works.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

If any part of the work was written during 1980-2000, for this thread, it will qualify. So, officially, we’ll keep both pieces.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Since we’re close to 30 entries, let’s say the deadline for substitutions and for new participant submissions is Sunday morning, March 1. I’ll go ahead and kick off the group Sunday, sometime, with Ades Living Toys, and we’ll put up a schedule. 

Moving forward, for any further management or housekeeping issues, let’s try to use this thread: “1980-2000 Listening Group - Selection Thread.” That way we can use the official ‘listening’ thread for music and discussion.

This thread came together quickly over only 1 week. Thanks for everyone’s patience as we have worked through issues.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

...but I drank my beers already...


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

I'll nominate:

Nono: "Hay que caminar" soñando (1989)
Xenakis: A l'île de Gorée (1986)


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*Tentative Final List*

_Substitutions allowed until the morning of March 1_
[approximate duration in minutes]

1. Adès: Living Toys, Op.9 (1993), [20] (20centrfuge)
2. Arnold: Symphony No. 9, Op. 128 (1986) [50] (Phil loves classical)
3. Benjamin: Palimpsests (1998-2002) [20] (Enthusiast)
4. Berio, Voci "Folk Songs II" (1984) [30] (PeterfromLA)
5. Birtwistle: The Cry of Anubis for Tuba and Orchestra (1994) [15] (Enthusiast)
6. Boulez: Sur Incises (1996-1998) [35] (mmsbls)
7. Corigliano: Symphony No. 1 (1988-1989) [40] (SuperTonic)
8. Dhomont: Forêt profonde (1994-96) [60] (Trout)
9. Gann: Long Night (1980-81) [25] (tortkis)
10. Garland, Peter: String Quartet No. 1, "In Praise of Poor Scholars" (1986) [20] (tortkis)
11. Gubaidulina: Jetzt immer Schnee for chamber ensemble and chamber choir (1993) [30] (Art Rock)
12. Johnston, Ben: String Quartet No. 7 (1984) [25] (SuperTonic)
13. Kurtag: Grabstein für Stephan, Op. 15c (1989) [10] (Kjetil Heggelund)
14. Ligeti: Études (1985-2001) [55] (Blancrocher)
15. Ligeti: Piano Concerto (1988) [25] (Phil loves classical)
16. Lutoslawski: Piano Concerto "For Krystian Zimerman" (1988) [25] (Blancrocher)
17. Manoury: Pluton for Piano and Live Electronics (1988-89) [50] (calvinpv)
18. Maxwell Davies: Concerto for Trumpet (1988) [30] (20centrfuge)
19. Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991) [60] (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
20. Murail: Désintégrations (1983) [25] (mmsbls)
21. Nono: "Hay que caminar" soñando (1989) [20] (Portamento)
22. Penderecki: Song of the Cherubim (1986) [10] & Nystedt: Immortal Bach (1988) [5] (Ravn)
23. Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) [50] (calvinpv)
24. Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) [40] (Kjetil Heggelund)
25. Sallinen: Songs of Life and Death, for baritone, choir and orchestra, Op. 69 (1995) [45] (Art Rock)
26. Schnittke: Symphony No. 5 "Concerto Grosso No. 4" (1988) [35] (PeterFromLA)
27. Takemitsu: From Me Flows What You Call Time (1990) [25] (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
28. Vivier: Lonely Child (1980) [20] (Trout)
29. Xenakis: A l'île de Gorée (1986) [15] (Portamento)

TC members participating in the group
20centrfuge
Art Rock
Blancrocher
BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist
calvinpv
Enthusiast
Kjetil Heggelund
mmsbls
PeterFromLA
Phil loves classical
Portamento
Ravn
SuperTonic
tortkis
Trout


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I added durations (approximate) to the list. Ravn, your two pieces were so short that I put them together as 1 entry, so if you want to add something else, you can.


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## Ravn (Jan 6, 2020)

20centrfuge said:


> I added durations (approximate) to the list. Ravn, your two pieces were so short that I put them together as 1 entry, so if you want to add something else, you can.


Surely. I'll add Rautavaara's seventh symphony, "Angel of Light".


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

No Carter or Ferneyhough?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

You had Peter Maxwell Davies alphabetically right in post 91, but then wrong in post 101. His family name is Davies (it's not another Vaughan Williams case).


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Art Rock said:


> You had Peter Maxwell Davies alphabetically right in post 91, but then wrong in post 101. His family name is Davies (it's not another Vaughan Williams case).


Ok. I'll change it back. Thanks for the correction.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Also I’ve given Kjetil the same treatment as Ravn, which is to say, since the Kurtág is only 10 minutes long, he will probably be adding another short work to pair with it.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

For fun, personally, one of the things I’m going to do, once we really start, is keep track of my favorite solos that are within the body of the ensemble. Non concerto solos, like the stunningly wicked tuba solo in Rihm’s Jagden und Formen or the jazzy trumpet solo in the Ades piece to name two off the top of my head.

Maybe I’ll also track ‘most shocking’ or ‘most lyrical’ moments. Some sort of thing like that to keep it fun.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> No Carter or Ferneyhough?


I notice that I'm the only one who doubled up on a composer--I'll switch out Ligeti's Etudes for Carter's Symphonia: sum fluxae pretium spei (1993-96).

In any case, the relation between the Piano Concerto and Etudes could be a subject of discussion in the Ligeti week.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Oh...Then I will choose Kurtze Schatten II by Ferneyhough. Then I get to learn some more about it. It is the most difficult piece for guitar in the entire universe, according to me. He finished it in 1989, a very good year...and it's ca 16 minutes (14 according to composer).


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

20centrfuge said:


> Also I've given Kjetil the same treatment as Ravn, which is to say, since the Kurtág is only 10 minutes long, he will probably be adding another short work to pair with it.


It is a shame to have such a major composer represented by one short work.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*Tentative Final List*

_Substitutions allowed until the morning of March 1_
[approximate duration in minutes]

1. Adès: Living Toys, Op.9 (1993), [20] (20centrfuge)
2. Arnold: Symphony No. 9, Op. 128 (1986) [50] (Phil loves classical)
3. Benjamin: Palimpsests (1998-2002) [20] (Enthusiast)
4. Berio, Voci "Folk Songs II" (1984) [30] (PeterfromLA)
5. Birtwistle: The Cry of Anubis for Tuba and Orchestra (1994) [15] (Enthusiast)
6. Boulez: Sur Incises (1996-1998) [35] (mmsbls)
7. Carter: Symphonia: sum fluxae pretium spei (1993-96) [45] Blancrocher
8. Corigliano: Symphony No. 1 (1988-1989) [40] (SuperTonic)
9. Davies: Concerto for Trumpet (1988) [30] (20centrfuge)
10. Dhomont: Forêt profonde (1994-96) [60] (Trout)
11. Ferneyhough: Kurtze Schatten II (1983-19890 [15] & Kurtag: Grabstein für Stephan, Op. 15c (1989) [10] (Kjetil Heggelund)
12. Gann: Long Night (1980-81) [25] (tortkis)
13. Garland, Peter: String Quartet No. 1, "In Praise of Poor Scholars" (1986) [20] (tortkis)
14. Gubaidulina: Jetzt immer Schnee for chamber ensemble and chamber choir (1993) [30] (Art Rock)
15. Johnston, Ben: String Quartet No. 7 (1984) [25] (SuperTonic)
16. Ligeti: Piano Concerto (1988) [25] (Phil loves classical)
17. Lutoslawski: Piano Concerto "For Krystian Zimerman" (1988) [25] (Blancrocher)
18. Manoury: Pluton for Piano and Live Electronics (1988-89) [50] (calvinpv)
19. Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991) [60] (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
20. Murail: Désintégrations (1983) [25] (mmsbls)
21. Nono: "Hay que caminar" soñando (1989) [20] (Portamento)
22. Penderecki: Song of the Cherubim (1986) [10] & Nystedt: Immortal Bach (1988) [5] (Ravn)
23. Rautavaara: Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light" (1994) [35] (Ravn)
24. Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) [50] (calvinpv)
25. Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) [40] (Kjetil Heggelund)
26. Sallinen: Songs of Life and Death, for baritone, choir and orchestra, Op. 69 (1995) [45] (Art Rock)
27. Schnittke: Symphony No. 5 "Concerto Grosso No. 4" (1988) [35] (PeterFromLA)
28. Takemitsu: From Me Flows What You Call Time (1990) [25] (BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist)
29. Vivier: Lonely Child (1980) [20] (Trout)
30. Xenakis: A l'île de Gorée (1986) [15] (Portamento)

TC members participating in the group
20centrfuge
Art Rock
Blancrocher
BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist
calvinpv
Enthusiast
Kjetil Heggelund
mmsbls
PeterFromLA
Phil loves classical
Portamento
Ravn
SuperTonic
tortkis
Trout


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*Tentative Dates for each piece.*
If you are unavailable to present your piece on the assigned date, you could either email me your stuff beforehand, or switch with someone else.

_Reminder: presenting your piece is totally optional. The piece will get listed and discussed either way, but you are welcome to provide any information you would like such as: why you chose the piece, program notes, recommended recording(s), notes on the composer/composer's style, etc. By researching and presenting, you learn more about the work that you are already passionate about._

3/1 20centrfuge - Ades
3/8 Enthusiast - Benjamin
3/15 Portamento - Nono
3/22 Trout - Dhomont
3/29 Art Rock - Gubaidulina
4/5 mmsbls - Boulez
4/12 Ravn - Penderecki/Nystedt
4/19 Phil loves classical - Arnold
4/26 Kjetil Heggelund - Ferneyhough/Kurtag
5/3 Super Tonic - Johnston
5/10 Blancrocher - Carter 
5/17 BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist - Takemitsu
5/24 calvinpv - Manoury
5/31 tortkis - Gann
6/7 PeterfromLA - Berio
6/14 Enthusiast - Birtwistle
6/21 Art Rock - Sallinen
6/28 Portamento - Xenakis
7/5 Trout - Vivier
7/12 mmsbls - Murail
7/19 Ravn - Rautavaara
7/26 Phil loves classical - Ligeti
8/2 Kjetil Heggelund - Saariaho
8/9 Super Tonic - Corigliano
8/16 calvinpv - Rihm
8/23 20centrfuge - Maxwell Davies
8/30 Blancrocher - Lutoslawski
9/6 BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist - Messiaen
9/13 tortkis - Garland
9/20 PeterfromLA - Schnittke


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

That's what I call long-range planning.


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

I don't mean to be a pain, but would it be possible to switch my two entries? I'd like to discuss the Johnston string quartet sooner.
I just discovered Johnston recently and I've been exploring his music. I'm eager to discuss it and see what others think.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

SuperTonic said:


> I don't mean to be a pain, but would it be possible to switch my two entries? I'd like to discuss the Johnston string quartet sooner.
> I just discovered Johnston recently and I've been exploring his music. I'm eager to discuss it and see what others think.


sure, no problem


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

We have a few members who have joined our ranks recently and I'd like to give them a chance to submit works to the list.

3/1 20centrfuge - Ades
3/8 Enthusiast - Benjamin
3/15 Portamento - Nono
3/22 Trout - Dhomont
3/29 Art Rock - Gubaidulina
4/5 mmsbls - Boulez
4/12 Ravn - Penderecki/Nystedt
4/19 Phil loves classical - Arnold
4/26 Kjetil Heggelund - Ferneyhough/Kurtag
5/3 Super Tonic - Johnston
5/10 Blancrocher - Carter 
5/17 BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist - Takemitsu
5/24 calvinpv - Manoury
5/31 tortkis - Gann
6/7 PeterfromLA - Berio

*This is the half way point* and I would give those that are interested a chance to submit works for a few weeks starting on 6/14. There is no requirement for what work you submit though the group has attempted to have a lot of diversity with different composers and types of works. You also have the option to introduce your work at the beginning of your week.

Please PM me if you are interested.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Two issues:

1) I'd like to combine Birtwistle and Xenakis to the same week since they're each about 15 minutes long.
2) What would you all think of inserting an opera - to occupy the span of 2 weeks? If there is interest, we would brainstorm together and pick one opera. We could do voting or just get a consensus.

Below I have 2 different schedules based on whether or not we do an opera. *PLEASE indicate whether you are in favor of inserting an opera.

*

6/14 Allegro Con Brio - MacMillan: Veni, Veni, Emmanuel (1992)
6/21 Knorf - Saariaho: Graal théâtre (1994)
6/28 Enthusiast - Birtwistle: The Cry of Anubis (1994) [15]
Portamento - Xenakis: A l'île de Gorée (1986) [15]
7/5 Art Rock - Sallinen: Songs of Life and Death, Op. 69 (1995)
7/12 Trout - Vivier: Lonely Child (1980) [20]
7/19 mmsbls - Murail 25
7/26 Ravn - Rautavaara
8/2 Phil loves classical - Ligeti
8/9 Kjetil Heggelund - Saariaho
8/16 Super Tonic - Corigliano
8/23 calvinpv - Rihm
8/30 20centrfuge - Maxwell Davies
9/6 Blancrocher - Lutoslawski
9/13 BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist - Messiaen
9/20 tortkis - Garland [20]
9/27 PeterfromLA - Schnittke 
10/4 Knorf - TBD
10/11 Allegro Con Brio TBD

- OR -

6/14 Allegro Con Brio - MacMillan: Veni, Veni, Emmanuel (1992)
6/21 Knorf - Saariaho: Graal théâtre (1994)
*6/28-7/18 TBD OPERA*
7/19 Enthusiast - Birtwistle: The Cry of Anubis (1994) [15]
Portamento - Xenakis: A l'île de Gorée (1986) [15]
7/26 Art Rock - Sallinen: Songs of Life and Death, Op. 69 (1995)
8/2 Trout - Vivier: Lonely Child (1980) [20]
8/9 mmsbls - Murail 25
7/26 Ravn - Rautavaara
8/16 Phil loves classical - Ligeti
8/30 Kjetil Heggelund - Saariaho
9/6 Super Tonic - Corigliano
9/13 calvinpv - Rihm
9/20 20centrfuge - Maxwell Davies
9/27 Blancrocher - Lutoslawski
10/4 BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist - Messiaen
10/11 tortkis - Garland [20]
10/18 PeterfromLA - Schnittke 
10/25 Knorf - TBD
11/1 Allegro Con Brio TBD


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I would definitely be interested in including an opera - I am still very much in the processing of exploring the genre as a whole and my knowledge of contemporary opera is absolutely zero.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Yes on the opera. A popular choice might be Saariaho's _L'Amour de loin_ or Adams's _Nixon in China_, but we could also do Lachenmann's _Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern_, Nono's _Prometeo_ or Sciarrino's _Luci mie traditrici_. I actually don't know too many contemporary operas, but I'd be happy with any choice.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm OK with the Birtwistle sharing a week with Xenakis although they are not really complementary works. I also have no problem with including an opera that fits our criteria although it might be a good idea to have a length limit (no Ring cycles) or to do it over two weeks.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm OK with the Birtwistle sharing a week with Xenakis although they are not really complementary works. I also have no problem with including an opera that fits our criteria although it might be a good idea to have a length limit (no Ring cycles) or to do it over two weeks.


I see your point so let's just keep the Xenakis and Birtwistle separate.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

How bout 2.5 hour limit. So no Messiaen: Saint François d'Assise which clocks in at 4 hours.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I'm giving every week's work a fair chance - even if I don't like it, I'll listen to the whole piece. For a two and a half hour opera, if I don't like the first 15 minutes, I'm out though.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I think if you have an opera, you need to think of accessibility of the libretto in English, and a video of a staged performance.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I feel like this listening group’s participation is waning and I’m not quite sure why. I’m wondering if planning too far in advance takes away any sense of newness and spontaneity.

WRT opera, it feels like a fairly lukewarm response. I won’t push it but just in case there really is SOME interest —
These are some of the operas from 1980 to 12/31/99 that are under 2:30 AND that can be seen in their entirety on YouTube:

Eötvös: Three Sisters (1998) 1:45

Turnage: Greek (1988) 1:30

Tobias Picker: Emmeline (1996) 2:00

Adès: Powder Her Face (1995) 2:00

Davies: The Lighthouse (1980) 1:15

Do any of these strike your fancy?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I know The Lighthouse quite well. It is quite fun and works well enough as pure music (i.e. without seeing it). I imagine it might surprise some as it is not as "difficult" as many of his works (the symphonies, the quartets) or as off the wall as some of his early pieces (8 Songs for a Mad King; Miss Donnithorne's Maggot; Resurrection). 

I certainly wouldn't mind spending some time with the Eotvos - I don't know it though so I couldn't say how well it would work in our setting. I don't think I know anything much by Turnage so it might be good to make his acquaintance.

I wonder if we are losing steam as a group. The last piece was not very popular with participants. I guess the music of the brief period we cover is very varied and we each have different preferences or even interests. I wonder if our ears are as open as when we started? Meanwhile, the string quartet listening group has tended to focus on fairly avant garde works which can take some time to get inside.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

20centrfuge said:


> I feel like this listening group's participation is waning and I'm not quite sure why. I'm wondering if planning too far in advance takes away any sense of newness and spontaneity.
> 
> WRT opera, it feels like a fairly lukewarm response. I won't push it but just in case there really is SOME interest -
> These are some of the operas from 1980 to 12/31/99 that are under 2:30 AND that can be seen in their entirety on YouTube:
> ...


I look at this thread as an opportunity to try out some stuff I never heard before. I always give my personal feeling towards the music (which I seem to always find something positive and negative), and so does Art Rock. Opera is something I find harder to get into as a pure aural experience. I can't even really get into a lot of Romantic opera or Wozzeck, as it sounds like some shouting by male singers and shrill shrieking by females.

I tried out a short preview of the Ades, just because of his name. It's hard to get past the flashiness, but I did find a bit of it humourous (but still repulsive at the same time) with turning normal expressions into music. I know I won't have the stamina to go through even close to a full length opera.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

20centrfuge said:


> I feel like this listening group's participation is waning and I'm not quite sure why. I'm wondering if planning too far in advance takes away any sense of newness and spontaneity.
> 
> WRT opera, it feels like a fairly lukewarm response. I won't push it but just in case there really is SOME interest -
> These are some of the operas from 1980 to 12/31/99 that are under 2:30 AND that can be seen in their entirety on YouTube:
> ...


I just looked up my choices on youtube, and these two not only had a live performance to watch but also playlists of CDs:

Adams: Nixon in China (1987) 3:00
Sciarrino: Luci mie traditrici (1996-1998) 1:10 <----- English subtitles included
Saariaho: L'Amour de loin (2000) 2:20

I think given peoples preferences, we should a do a shorter opera. Perhaps pick between Sciarrino, Davies and maybe Turnage? I've found the libretto online for the Sciarrino and Davies, but not the Turnage.

As for low group participation, I don't think it helped that the Berio last week was unavailable on youtube unless you had a premium membership (which I didn't even know existed).


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Hmmm........ Sciarrino or Davies? THAT is the question.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I vote Sciarrino, simply because I don’t know this composer much.

I’m sure I’d like the Davies as well, though


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

20centrfuge said:


> Hmmm........ Sciarrino or Davies? THAT is the question.


Well, Davies is already in the list with one of his concertos. I think Sciarrino is not, so I'd vote for him.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The Davies is a short fun opera that seems to owe quite a lot to Britten (so it is not very typical of his music) and is also a work I know well ... so I also give my vote to to the Sciarrino.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

We'll put the opera between two shorter weeks (15 minutes each) to give people some listening flexibility.

6/21 Knorf - Saariaho: Graal théâtre (1994)
6/28 Enthusiast - Birtwistle: The Cry of Anubis (1994) [15]
7/5 Sciarrino: Luci mie traditrici (1996-1998)
7/12 Portamento - Xenakis: A l'île de Gorée (1986) [15]
7/19 Art Rock - Sallinen: Songs of Life and Death, Op. 69 (1995) [45]
7/26 Trout - Vivier: Lonely Child (1980) [20]
8/2 mmsbls - Murail: Désintégrations (1983) [25]
8/9 Ravn - Rautavaara: Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light" (1994) [35] 
8/16 Phil loves classical - Ligeti: Piano Concerto (1988) [25]
8/23 Kjetil Heggelund - Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) [40]
8/30 Super Tonic - Corigliano: Symphony No. 1 (1988-1989) [40]
9/6 calvinpv - Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) [50] 
9/13 20centrfuge - Maxwell Davies: Concerto for Trumpet (1988) [30]
9/20 Blancrocher - Lutoslawski: Piano Concerto "For Krystian Zimerman" (1988) [25]
9/27 BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist - Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991) [60]
10/4 tortkis - Garland: Peter: String Quartet No. 1, "In Praise of Poor Scholars" (1986) [20]
10/11 PeterfromLA - Schnittke: Symphony No. 5 "Concerto Grosso No. 4" (1988) [35]
10/18 Knorf - TBD
10/25 Allegro Con Brio TBD


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I'm doing a little scheduling house-keeping. It seems that the participants in red below are no longer participating in the listening group. I'm not sure whether to remove those spots to tighten up the schedule or to leave them. If you are one of those people and still want to participate, please let me know. If any of the rest of you have opinions on this please let me know.

7/5 (group selection) Sciarrino: Luci mie traditrici (1996-1998)
7/12 Portamento - Xenakis: A l'île de Gorée (1986) [15]
7/19 Mandryka - Harvey: Nachtlied (1984) [25]
7/26 Trout - Vivier: Lonely Child (1980) [20] (LAST POST MARCH 18)
8/2 mmsbls - Murail: Désintégrations (1983) [25]
8/9 Ravn - Rautavaara: Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light" (1994) [35] 
8/16 Phil loves classical - Ligeti: Piano Concerto (1988) [25]
8/23 Kjetil Heggelund - Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) [40]
8/30 Super Tonic - Corigliano: Symphony No. 1 (1988-1989) [40]
9/6 calvinpv - Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) [50] 
9/13 20centrfuge - Maxwell Davies: Concerto for Trumpet (1988) [30]
9/20 Blancrocher - Lutoslawski: Piano Concerto "For Krystian Zimerman" (1988) [25] LAST POST IN APRIL
9/27 tortkis - Garland: Peter: String Quartet No. 1, "In Praise of Poor Scholars" (1986) [20]
10/4 BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist - Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991) [60] LAST POST IN MARCH
10/11 PeterfromLA - Schnittke: Symphony No. 5 "Concerto Grosso No. 4" (1988) [35] - ONLY ONE POST, MARCH 8
10/18 Knorf - TBD
10/25 Allegro Con Brio TBD


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

When would you like me to choose a piece?


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Knorf said:


> When would you like me to choose a piece?


Whenever you want, but at least a week or two before


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

20centrfuge said:


> I'm doing a little scheduling house-keeping. It seems that the participants in red below are no longer participating in the listening group. I'm not sure whether to remove those spots to tighten up the schedule or to leave them. If you are one of those people and still want to participate, please let me know. If any of the rest of you have opinions on this please let me know.
> 
> 7/5 (group selection) Sciarrino: Luci mie traditrici (1996-1998)
> 7/12 Portamento - Xenakis: A l'île de Gorée (1986) [15]
> ...


I for one am a strong advocate for keeping those spots in the group despite the disappearance of the participants. It's something I'm dealing with in the early music group too, and though it's always great when the nominator explains the work and guides us through it, it's not entirely necessary. Also, I wouldn't want to miss out on including Schnittke, Lutoslawski, and Messiaen - three giants of contemporary music - in the group!


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Others can step up to introduce those pieces. I can, for one. I'd suggest keeping the choices, which are solid.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Vivier is a very good composer who doesn't get enough love on TC, so he should stay in the rotation. And as Allegro Con Brio said, the other three are major contemporary pieces, so they should stay too.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I would miss some of the red ones. And, of course, also miss their proposers. What are we thinking for when the schedule comes to an end? Will we do another round or a slightly different period (1960-80? 1990-2010?) ... with or without some overlap. If there is a future then it is easier to lose some now. 

Perhaps exclude the red ones that no participating member wants to adopt ... but keep those orphans which get adopted.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> I would miss some of the red ones. And, of course, also miss their proposers. What are we thinking for when the schedule comes to an end? Will we do another round or a slightly different period (1960-80? 1990-2010?) ... with or without some overlap. If there is a future then it is easier to lose some now.
> 
> Perhaps exclude the red ones that no participating member wants to adopt ... but keep those orphans which get adopted.


I would gladly "adopt" the Messiaen if needed


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Enthusiast said:


> What are we thinking for when the schedule comes to an end? Will we do another round or a slightly different period (1960-80? 1990-2010?) ... with or without some overlap.


Totally open to discussion. I'd personally be partial to doing another round, OR doing a "21st Century Listening Group" starting in November or December.

There's still certainly plenty of music to be mined from 1980-2000.

*What do you and everyone else want?*


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

OK, leaving every previous entry in place and making room for the opera and Mandryka. Here is the schedule. I don't foresee anymore changes until the group concludes or we start a new round.

7/5 (group selection) Sciarrino: Luci mie traditrici (1996-1998)
7/12 Portamento - Xenakis: A l'île de Gorée (1986) [15]
7/19 Mandryka - Harvey: Nachtlied (1984) [25]
7/26 Art Rock - Sallinen: Songs of Life and Death, Op. 69 (1995) [45]
8/2 Trout - Vivier: Lonely Child (1980) [20]
8/9 mmsbls - Murail: Désintégrations (1983) [25]
8/16 Ravn - Rautavaara: Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light" (1994) [35] 
8/23 Phil loves classical - Ligeti: Piano Concerto (1988) [25]
8/30 Kjetil Heggelund - Saariaho: Du cristal...à la fumée (1989) [40]
9/6 Super Tonic - Corigliano: Symphony No. 1 (1988-1989) [40]
9/13 calvinpv - Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1995-2001, revised 2008) [50] 
9/20 20centrfuge - Maxwell Davies: Concerto for Trumpet (1988) [30]
9/27 Blancrocher - Lutoslawski: Piano Concerto "For Krystian Zimerman" (1988) [25]
10/4 BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist - Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà... (1991) [60]
10/11 tortkis - Garland: Peter: String Quartet No. 1, "In Praise of Poor Scholars" (1986) [20]
10/18 PeterfromLA - Schnittke: Symphony No. 5 "Concerto Grosso No. 4" (1988) [35]
10/25 Knorf - TBD
11/1 Allegro Con Brio TBD


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I’d be excited about any of these options

- another round of 1980-2000
- 1990-2010 thread
- 21st century thread
- post 1975 thread


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

My preferences would be:

1a. 21st century thread
1b. 1990-2010 (an alternative if others don't want to go too far into the 21st century)

2. electronic/electroacoustic music from any time period


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

calvinpv said:


> My preferences would be:
> 
> 1a. 21st century thread
> 1b. 1990-2010 (an alternative if others don't want to go too far into the 21st century)
> ...


I would really enjoy an electronic/electroacoustic thread, though I wouldn't be much of a contributor, more of a sponge.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I am not sure I would join an electronic thread - I barely get on with the organ - but might listen in sometimes. A 21st century thread might be interesting but with so many new and relatively untried works might be risky. It would though be a useful heads up noticeboard. Perhaps issuing three works together for a two week period would enable interesting comparisons. I'm open to a thread that focuses on music from 1975 (or even '70) but do think there should be an end point (1990? 2010?).


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> I am not sure I would join an electronic thread - I barely get on with the organ - but might listen in sometimes. A 21st century thread might be interesting but with so many new and relatively untried works might be risky. It would though be a useful heads up noticeboard. Perhaps issuing three works together for a two week period would enable interesting comparisons. I'm open to a thread that focuses on music from 1975 (or even '70) but do think there should be an end point (1990? 2010?).


I echo every word in this post (except about organ music). I'm really enjoying the discoveries I'm making in this group, and still think there are so many interesting things to explore from the same rough period.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I think I'd be willing to launch an electroacoustic music thread, focused on art music. Would folks here be keen?


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

You could count me in, for sure


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## Turangalîla (Jan 29, 2012)

Knorf said:


> I think I'd be willing to launch an electroacoustic music thread, focused on art music. Would folks here be keen?


I'm in, simply for the fact that I know next to nothing about this world of music.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I haven't done so [launch an electroacoustic listening thread], because interest seemed pretty thin. Maybe there's more than I think?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Knorf said:


> I haven't done so [launch an electroacooustic listening thread], becuase interest seemed pretty thin. Maybe there's more than I think?


Maybe. I think just do it.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I’d be in for an electro-acoustic thread


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