# Deleeuw - and a tweener?



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

There has been considerable debate about whether 'pure' music can communicate the composer's thoughts, or even his emotional intentions for the music. I'm wondering how far 'purity' can be stretched.

Deleeuw's "Der nächtliche Wanderer" contains, besides the title, some hints. At the beginning and at the end we hear a dog barking. There is also some whispering, but I couldn't make it out and it probably isn't English anyway.

Altogether, it seems to me that the listener is led into an environment. If we disregard the whispers (I certainly can), where the listener goes from there is optional, except that the same dog barks at the close.

My question is: If this isn't 'pure' music, what is it?

[I heard this work in a download from _concertarchives. _It was performed by the Finnish National Symphony. The work could be represented on YouTube, but I don't know the search procedure.]


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Yes, there is a you-tube as well of this work by Reinbert De Leeuw 
(lesser known as a composer than Ton de Leeuw):






(I just googled the title + composer name, and maybe the search engine remembers my fondness of youtube, anyway it all came up immediately).


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ukko said:


> Altogether, it seems to me that the listener is led into an environment. If we disregard the whispers (I certainly can), where the listener goes from there is optional, except that the same dog barks at the close.


Can you spell out your thought here a bit more? I don't understand "where the listener goes from there is optional"

I have only had a chance to hear the first 15 minutes, it seems OK so far, quite entertaining and some big events. If I was in a concert and they played it that would be OK for me.

The who business of animals in recent art/music is quite interesting.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> Can you spell out your thought here a bit more? I don't understand "where the listener goes from there is optional"
> 
> I have only had a chance to hear the first 15 minutes, it seems OK so far, quite entertaining and some big events. If I was in a concert and they played it that would be OK for me.
> 
> The who business of animals in recent art/music is quite interesting.


Sure. The listener, via the title plus the initial distant barking, is led into a night walk. I must, the whispers being incomprehensible to me, assume that there is no more guidance from the composer - except that the walk/journey ends up where it started (the same dog barking).

In this instance, I think the barking is extraneous to the music; it is... I don't know the term; locator?


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ukko said:


> My question is: If this isn't 'pure' music, what is it?


LOL. I completely forgot it has a contentful title, like Night Fantasies or the Debussy preludes. It's just not pure music then.

Chopin is full of pure music which commincates ideas. He has a sort of pure music sematic tool kit. One example is the way he will suddenly cut off a romantic melody with bombs and gunfire, you hear it very clearly towards the end of the third scherzo. It's like he's saying in pure music that the the world is too cruel a place for romantic imagination, romantic idealism.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

The Chopin is not 'communicating ideas'. It is tickling your imagination, which then produces ideas. Definitely not the same ideas I generated from that music. I ain't quibbling here, I think the difference is insurmountable.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

When I say "Grass is green" I'm communicating an idea because of a shared understanding of how the words are used and how the grammar works. The analogues in the Chopin are the romantic, anthemic tune and the crashes (they're like the words) and their juxtaposition (that's like the grammar.)

Looking at the flames of a log fire is something which tickles my imagination. No grammar, no words.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> When I say "Grass is green" I'm communicating an idea because of a shared understanding of how the words are used and how the grammar works. The analogues in the Chopin are the romantic, anthemic tune and the crashes (they're like the words) and their juxtaposition (that's like the grammar.)
> 
> Looking at the flames of a log fire is something which tickles my imagination. No grammar, no words.


Sure. Your clue assignments are not universally understood - words aren't either.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> Yes, there is a you-tube as well of this work by Reinbert De Leeuw
> (lesser known as a composer than Ton de Leeuw):
> 
> 
> ...


I just received a YouTube link to a performance conducted by the composer. Don't know if if duplicates your link, _joen_. Here it is anyway.

Reinbert de Leeuw - Der nächtlige Wanderer


----------

