# Haydn's masses



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Haydn's masses are not much discussed here lately. I would like to get to know them better. Which ones should come first? What are the best performances? Any help is appreciated!


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## palJacky (Nov 27, 2010)

the nelson mass is probably a safe bet to start.
the Hickox on Chandos is my current favorite but there is a nifty 2-fer from decca(orignally Argo) that held me in good stead for years.

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Masses-...=1357539689&sr=1-8&keywords=haydn+nelson+mass

It is a good and cheap haydn mass starter set...


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Totally agree with that above.

The original old Argo LP box recordings had 6 masses conducted by George Guest and David Willcocks.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

The TC Choral works list includes:

Lord Nelson Mass
Mass No. 14 "Harmoniemesse"
Mass No. 10 “Missa in tempore belli”

Personally I like all of those and agree that the Lord Nelson Mass is a must hear.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

_Nelson_ mass. _Theresienmesse_. _Schöpfungsmesse_.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2013)

Agree about Nelson Mass (Missa in Angustiis). Haydn's masses are wonderful. I have several. For the Nelson Mass, I have two recordings - the previously mentioned recording by Willcocks, and then I also have Trevor Pinnock's recording. I tend to prefer HIP recordings for Haydn, so my vote goes for Pinnock.

If you want a quality collection of all the masses at a great price, I would recommend Naxos' box set:
http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-Masses-Box-Set/dp/B002IVRBBU/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1357567924&sr=1-1&keywords=haydn+masses

I personally have a few recordings from this set - the Caecelienmesse (Missa cellensis in honorem); the Mariazellermesse (Missa cellensis); and the Paukenmesse (Missa in tempore belli). The sound in the Naxos set is wonderful, and these recordings have received very good reviews. They are HIP, if you like that (which I do).


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I haven't heard other conductors, but I have all of Gardiner's recordings of Haydn's masses, and they consistently hold my attention.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I like the 6 later masses a lot - in addition to the Decca set mentioned by palJacky I inexpensively completed the later set with these, but prices do fluctuate:

http://www.amazon.com/Missa-St-Bern...577905&sr=1-11&keywords=haydn+sancti+bernardi

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Mass-No...=1357577778&sr=1-10&keywords=haydn+mass++sony

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Creatio...357577620&sr=1-1&keywords=haydn+creation+mass

The last one includes a recording of the alternative Gloria from the 'Creation' Mass which he was obliged to compose after incurring Empress Marie Therese's displeasure by originally using music from his Creation Oratorio.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

I also especially enjoy the "Heiligmesse", the "Paukenmesse" and the "Stabat Mater".

Haydn's masses are masterpieces, and impress not only by their variety and the alacrity of expression. They impress by the maturity of their style; careful listening to the voice-leading will sometimes reveal an almost Bach-like mastery. What I enjoy most about Haydn's music is that as he aged, his style became far more florid--in line with the times. All of the masses are excellent; however, I agree that the famous Nelson Mass is probably the best place to start. The Dona Nobis Pacem movement is the most extraordinary conclusion to a marvelous work.

You may also enjoy the masses of his younger brother, Michael Haydn; especially the "Chiemseemesse" and the Requiem.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I believe Haydn was unsurpassed in his masses, by Mozart or Beethoven, or heck, anyone else. In addition to Nelson Mass, Theresienmesse and Harmoniemesse were great. I like Theresienmesse the most consistently throughout. Gardiner's version of the Nelson and Theresa is powerful.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

I'll speak up for the Bernstein Haydn box masses.


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## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

Neville Marriner’s traversal of the final masses with Staatskapelle Dresden - and real sopranos ! - has been named as his finest achievement on record. It is indeed fine, well recorded, and inexpensive on a twofer.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Agreed that Gardiner's recording of the '6 Great Masses' should be everything you are looking for.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Yes. The Nelson Mass comes first. The Pinnock recording is a good one and makes me wish he had recorded more of them. Hickox is good, though.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

david johnson said:


> I'll speak up for the Bernstein Haydn box masses.


They're worth speaking up for. I have the box set with Bernstein's Haydn symphonies and the masses, recorded with the New York Philharmonic. These recordings blew me away. I thought Bernstein would be slow and operatic, but quite the opposite; he was actually anticipating the HIP movement.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have never heard a Haydn mass I didn't like. Ok, so I have only heard 3 or 4, but so far he scores 100% in my book for masses. And that is the only place I have dipped into Haydn, other than for the Creation Oratorio.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^^ Or maybe the HIP practitioners - or more likely the fans - were misrepresenting what was wrong with the older ways?


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## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

This is indeed glorious music. Reportedly, Haydn was quite proud of the last 6 masses. I have read that he was regularly reproached for his church music being too joyous; it wasn’t solemn enough for the prevailing catholic tastes at the time. To which he replied that he couldn’t help it being so joyful as his heart lept with joy whenever he thought of the Lord.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I findthe Nelson Mass a rather dark work at times, for example. The Creation can be quite dramatic too.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I would say the Teresa and Pauken (kettledrum) masses are both ahead of the Nelson mass for me; I find both have better harmonies and solo material, especially the soprano parts in the Teresa.

Anyone that likes Haydn's masses should get to know his Stabat Mater and the choral version of the 7 Last Words of Our Father on the Cross. I learned the masses early as a collector in my 20s but did not learn the latter two until I sang them in my 50s. They don't come as easily as the masses but are equally as satisfying.

For further exploration try some of Haydn's duets and songs, especially the 12 English Canzonettas, Arianna a Naxos, and his duet based on same material as the Nelson mass, Battle of the Nile.

And of course The Creation and The Seasons oratorios.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

Novelette said:


> You may also enjoy the masses of his younger brother, Michael Haydn; especially the "Chiemseemesse" and the Requiem.


The Requiem has many unique features: a pity it has been so neglected in comparison with his brother's.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

david johnson said:


> I'll speak up for the Bernstein Haydn box masses.












Got this one from the library. I like it!


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I have the Pinnock Nelson Mass disc but haven't yet explored it. I also have a free Naxos download of the Paukenmesse and Mariazellermesse by Owen Burdick, which I think is an amazing performance (not sure whether it counts as HIP or not) – but the sound is, for whatever reason, quite terrible. I wonder if the CD is better. I have not yet really done the deep dive on Haydn's masses, but I think it's obvious to anyone that he is as much a master of the art form as he is with the symphony, the string quartet, the oratorio, the piano sonata, the piano trio, etc. etc... Haydn was easily one of the greatest composers to ever live.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The Nelson Mass on the Royal Edition sounds awesome. It was recorded in 1976. I thought he was with DG by that time? Anyway, these Royal Editions have good mastering and sound great at high volume.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

flamencosketches said:


> I have the Pinnock Nelson Mass disc but haven't yet explored it. I also have a free Naxos download of the Paukenmesse and Mariazellermesse by Owen Burdick, which I think is an amazing performance (not sure whether it counts as HIP or not) - but the sound is, for whatever reason, quite terrible. I wonder if the CD is better.


Here are the samples of the Burdick box from Presto. Some sound better than others.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7981665--the-complete-haydn-masses


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> I have the Pinnock Nelson Mass disc but haven't yet explored it. I also have a free Naxos download of the Paukenmesse and Mariazellermesse by Owen Burdick, which I think is an amazing performance (not sure whether it counts as HIP or not)


Definitely HIP - Rebel Baroque Orchestra. I listened to some of it, and the sound was a little raw.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I've got the Hickox set playing on YouTube. These sound very fine!


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Bulldog said:


> Definitely HIP - Rebel Baroque Orchestra. I listened to some of it, and the sound was a little raw.


Thanks, I was not familiar with that ensemble at all. Why is the sound so bad, I wonder. It sounds like it was recorded live with a cell phone in the audience. OK, it's not that bad, but it is not up to the high standard of Naxos recording quality.



starthrower said:


> I've got the Hickox set playing on YouTube. These sound very fine!


This appears to be the one to get. I'll have to check it out.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The Hickox set is ten dollars more than the Burdick but it sounds brilliant! I put it in my shopping cart at Presto.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I finally bought a couple of CDs and I love these works. I got the Marriner 2 disc set on EMI, and the Creation Mass by Hickox on Chandos.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> I believe Haydn was unsurpassed in his masses, by Mozart or Beethoven, or heck, anyone else.


I would have agreed if you meant Michael instead of Joseph. 
The sole reason why Joseph's are popular at all is because Joseph himself is well-known today. The same reason why all his baryton trios have been recorded even though it's so hard to find a baryton player today. Aside from a few high points (ie. "gratias agimus tibi - qui tollis" from the theresienmesse), Joseph's are very much like J.G. Naumann's, albeit more pompous. 
"Joseph regarded his brother's music highly, to the point of feeling Michael's religious works were superior to his own" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Haydn



hammeredklavier said:


> ( 6:32 ~ 7:45 )
> This is way too much. The guy apparently has found something good for a melody. He clings to it with all his might, trying to arouse emotion in the listener with it. Way too artificial (almost sickening, imv).





hammeredklavier said:


> For example, look at his ways to set the text "suscipe deprecationem" (which I think is the "emotional center" of the Gloria) to music in these cases, Joseph is, imv, clearly being a typical, uninspired kapellmeister:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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