# Is Zelenka the true master of counterpoint?



## Morganist (Jul 14, 2012)

Hi I was listening to Zelenka and think he at least rivals J S Bach perhaps even surpasses him. What do you think?

Here is Zelenka at his best in his Requiem.

http://baroqueclassics.blogspot.co.uk/


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

not really hard to surpass bach all his music sounds the same


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## Morganist (Jul 14, 2012)

LordBlackudder said:


> not really hard to surpass bach all his music sounds the same


The magnificat and the brandenburg concerto are different and the cello suites are original too.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

LordBlackudder said:


> not really hard to surpass bach all his music sounds the same


Lol.

Did I tell you about that 12-part fugue I improvised the other day? It would have been better if I had more fingers...


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

LordBlackudder said:


> not really hard to surpass bach all his music sounds the same


Blasphemy.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

LordBlackudder said:


> not really hard to surpass bach all his music sounds the same


I can only feel sorry for someone with such a lack of good taste.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I think Zelenka roughly approximates what Bach would've sounded like without the Vivaldian influence. Its high quality music, but not quite fiery enough for me.


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## Morganist (Jul 14, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Blasphemy.


Yes I will second that. Bach was a master.


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## Morganist (Jul 14, 2012)

Zelenka sounds a bit like J J Fux as he studied under him. I like Fux's Te Deum and it reminds me of some of Zelenka's work.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

LordBlackudder said:


> not really hard to surpass bach all his music sounds the same


That's actually how i read LordBlackudder's comment at first:

_Is Zelenka the true master of counterpoint?_

*not really, hard to surpass bach; all his (Zelenka's) music sounds the same*


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Contrapuntalists (top three) in order. Note the distance between 2 and 3

1. Bach
2. Schoenberg
























































3. Zelenka


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Seems like I have to check out some Zelenka.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

And I have to get hold of some Johann Joseph Fux. I'm listening to him right now on Spotify... and he has some marvelous music indeed. Zelenka I already have some 10 or more discs of. A marvelous composer in his own right. He did compose some great contrapuntal work. He was also known for the complexity of his writing for the lower register, owing to the fact that he played the violone, the largest and lowest member of the viol family, analogous to the double bass.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

I am not familiar with anything by Zelenka or Fux, for that matter, though I have his counterpoint book _Gradus ad Parnassum_.
So much music! Will acquire something.

apologies - thought I was on the CURRENT LISTENING FORUM, apparently - removed the comments but the attached thumbnails are embedded.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Just you and dozens of musicologists and other fans of music, since the 1950's especially, have recognized this composer as being on a par with J.S. Bach, in both contrapuntal skill and harmonic language.

Not that there were not also many many more contrapuntal masters of equal ability and worth from 1300 through to the 18th century, and that many more since then


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Excellent opportunity for some gratuitous Zelenka links.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

I've said this before, but I think Zelenka was at his best writing choral counterpoint with instrumental accompaniment. Whenever I hear his purely instrumental works, I'm underwhelmed. Not to mention his music sounds structurally improvisatory compared with Bach, and more old-fashioned, i.e. closer to the 17th-century. 

Bach wrote decent music in every Baroque genre minus opera: overture, aria, toccata, fugue, canon, fantasy, keyboard suite, orchestral suite, concerto grossi, concerto with soloist, concerto with multiple soloists, trio sonata, prelude, string instrument solo, string instrument with accompaniment, chaconne, passacaglia, double, mass, passion, chorale prelude, cantata... He even invented his own genres, like concerto for keyboard. On the other hand, Zelenka's memorable music all seems to be chromatic choral counterpoint.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Webernite said:


> Bach wrote decent music in every Baroque genre minus opera: overture, aria, toccata, fugue, canon, fantasy, keyboard suite, orchestral suite, concerto grossi, concerto with soloist, concerto with multiple soloists, trio sonata, prelude, string instrument solo, string instrument with accompaniment, chaconne, passacaglia, double, mass, passion, chorale prelude, cantata... He even invented his own genres, like concerto for keyboard. On the other hand, Zelenka's memorable music all seems to be chromatic choral counterpoint.


This doesn't seem very fair to me and is in danger of slipping into the mire of Bach Worship. Zelenka's surviving music is overwhelmingly sacred choral work, particularly Masses. This was the large format Bach was keen to work in. Indeed, Bach was so desperate to write Masses that he eventually concocted one even though he was in the wrong religion! There are more than twenty full scale surviving masses by Zelenka. A decent output. Zelenka also wrote a bit of chamber music in forms such as Trio Sonata, Overture and Concerto. Sure, there's probably nothing as good as the Brandenberg Concertos and the Orchestral Suites, but there's little of Bach's other chamber music that puts it in the shade.

I don't think the 17th C jibe is fair though (though of course Bach and Zelenka were probably the two most old fashioned composers of their generation -the jibe is perhaps unfair because they both sound 17th C!). Zelenka's chamber music is fine and sometimes really excellent -try the Il Fondamento disc of his instrumental stuff.

As for fugues and canons? Well, Zelenka's choral music is famous for featuring exactly those things, and outstanding examples of them. Zelenka did write operas too (indeed I posted a clip from one of them above).

Criticizing a composer for not writing in the variety of genres you'd have liked seems a bit much. Zelenka was a professional musician who wrote on commission. He worked at the Dresden Court (a position Bach would've killed for) where there were plenty of other great musicians and composers to cover the areas outside the remit of Zelenka's job (which of course was writing Masses and other sacred music).


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Contrapuntalists (top three) in order. Note the distance between 2 and 3
> 
> 1. Bach
> 2. Schoenberg
> ...


What about Ligeti? :3 What about Beethoven? There's lots of great counterpoint out there. Its like calling Ravel and Rimsky-Korsakov "ZOMG TEH GRATEST ORCHESTATORS EVAR!!!1!" when there's composers from every period who did beautiful imaginative things with orchestration, at least in the periods where that element was taken into account. Instead of trying to name a number 1 greatest in something very subjective (since there's many different ways of doing counterpoint) we could just talk about great contrapuntal writers. How about that genius collage-like counterpoint in some of Ives' music :3 also present and taken to an extreme in some of Schnittke's works


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> What about Ligeti? :3 What about Beethoven? There's lots of great counterpoint out there. Its like calling Ravel and Rimsky-Korsakov "ZOMG TEH GRATEST ORCHESTATORS EVAR!!!1!" when there's composers from every period who did beautiful imaginative things with orchestration, at least in the periods where that element was taken into account. Instead of trying to name a number 1 greatest in something very subjective (since there's many different ways of doing counterpoint) we could just talk about great contrapuntal writers. How about that genius collage-like counterpoint in some of Ives' music :3 also present and taken to an extreme in some of Schnittke's works


It was a rather toungue in cheek comment about how well known Zelenka is compared to the two composers that are probably the most well known for contrapuntal technique. Zelenka is an excellent contrapuntalist as is *Ligeti,* and Ives and Schnittke etc.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

hocket said:


> This doesn't seem very fair to me and is in danger of slipping into the mire of Bach Worship. Zelenka's surviving music is overwhelmingly sacred choral work, particularly Masses. This was the large format Bach was keen to work in. Indeed, Bach was so desperate to write Masses that he eventually concocted one even though he was in the wrong religion! There are more than twenty full scale surviving masses by Zelenka. A decent output. Zelenka also wrote a bit of chamber music in forms such as Trio Sonata, Overture and Concerto. Sure, there's probably nothing as good as the Brandenberg Concertos and the Orchestral Suites, but there's little of Bach's other chamber music that puts it in the shade.
> 
> I don't think the 17th C jibe is fair though (though of course Bach and Zelenka were probably the two most old fashioned composers of their generation -the jibe is perhaps unfair because they both sound 17th C!). Zelenka's chamber music is fine and sometimes really excellent -try the Il Fondamento disc of his instrumental stuff.
> 
> ...


I'm not attacking Zelenka. He was one of the great Baroque composers. But I think that, _on the basis of the surviving works_, there's not enough variety of masterpiece material there to make him comparable with Bach. I'd accept that his best choral works are a match for the best parts of Bach's cantatas. But then I look at the Brandenburg Concertos, Goldberg Variations, D minor violin partita, and so on. Zelenka doesn't seem to have composed anything like that. Maybe he wasn't commissioned to do so, but in the end we can only judge him on what he wrote.

That said, his opera sounds promising.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Webernite said:


> I'm not attacking Zelenka. He was one of the great Baroque composers. But I think that, _on the basis of the surviving works_, there's not enough variety of masterpiece material there to make him comparable with Bach. I'd accept that his best choral works are a match for the best parts of Bach's cantatas. But then I look at the Brandenburg Concertos, Goldberg Variations, D minor violin partita, and so on. Zelenka doesn't seem to have composed anything like that. Maybe he wasn't commissioned to do so, but in the end we can only judge him on what he wrote.
> 
> That said, his opera sounds promising.


Yeah, I get that and accept that my argument can only work up to a point. No one is going to argue that someone who only ever wrote for solo lute alone is comparable to Bach. Nonetheless I do think Zelenka has a wide enough range of stuff not to be dismissed on that basis (+ I think his chamber music's a bit better than you suggest). Sure he didn't write for solo violin or cello but very few people did who weren't specialists in those instruments. Bach's tendency to do those things is quite odd for the time, and perhaps reflected his unfulfilled desire to be employed at one of the larger musical establishments (like Dresden).

I suppose it's a bit odd that there isn't more music for the viol by Zelenka. You could argue that it was more of a background instrument at the time but I don't really buy it. Johannes Schenck was roughly contemporary, worked in Germany, and wrote extensively for viols. Maybe there's still a Zelenka treasure trove to be discovered?

Is Zelenka comparable with Bach? I don't know -I try not to get caught up in the whole idolatry thing. As you say he is very high quality so I'm happy enough with that.

Anyway, here's some examples of his instrumental music played well for those unfamiliar with it:


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2012)

Linn Audio is releasing an SACD recording of Zelenka's Sonatas in October.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

I really like that


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> What about Ligeti? :3 What about Beethoven? There's lots of great counterpoint out there. Its like calling Ravel and Rimsky-Korsakov "ZOMG TEH GRATEST ORCHESTATORS EVAR!!!1!" when there's composers from every period who did beautiful imaginative things with orchestration, at least in the periods where that element was taken into account. Instead of trying to name a number 1 greatest in something very subjective (since there's many different ways of doing counterpoint) we could just talk about great contrapuntal writers. How about that genius collage-like counterpoint in some of Ives' music :3 also present and taken to an extreme in some of Schnittke's works


I agree with you in the sense that these discussions about 'the great (insert something)' are meaningless. I don't know why some people is really obsessed with these kind of things, this is art, not some kind of competition, there are no winners here. If you want competition, go and play some game, I don't know.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Kontrapunctus said:


>


Look at those tights lol


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Sorry...I couldn't refrain from commenting about the men in tights. They must have made Huggett very happy.

As for counterpoint - any thoughts on Taneyev?










I suppose he is more late 19th century in taste.


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## Bas (Jul 24, 2012)

If Zelenka is the true master, then Bach must be the God of Counterpoint. 
(Zelenka was great, he surely was, but he comes after Bach, cause there is no one that is allwoed to come before him )

Some Zelenka piece I really like is his Missa Votiva:


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## Bas (Jul 24, 2012)

Kontrapunctus said:


> Linn Audio is releasing an SACD recording of Zelenka's Sonatas in October.


Oooh, sounds like a must have, even if it was just for the sound quality of LINN in general (I have some of this Zelenka Sonates on other labels already, yet not all in the best quality)! Thanks for mentioning!


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2012)

Kontrapunctus said:


> Linn Audio is releasing an SACD recording of Zelenka's Sonatas in October.


It came out a bit early--mine arrived yesterday (Sept. 20). Anyway, this disc has stunning sound (the ensemble is practically in one's living room!), but since an SACD can hold 82 minutes, 49:51 seems a bit short. Maybe all six Sonatas would not fit, but I'm sure at least two more would. Anyway, wonderful music and performances, too.


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## ErinD (Sep 20, 2012)

This is the first I've heard of Zelenka. I'm listening to 'Miserere I' right now and although it is quite good, I don't think his(?) technical skill is quite as good as Bach's  

I think Krebs could have surpassed the master however if he was more prolific


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## Krisena (Jul 21, 2012)

LordBlackudder said:


> not really hard to surpass bach all his music sounds the same


If there was an anti-like button...


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