# Looking for music scale creating program



## sammyooba (Apr 8, 2009)

I am looking for a program that creates music scales. 

or something where I punch in a sound frequency and it plays back.

I want to test several scales including a 100 key scale and hear it playback.

I don't think there is a program for this but if anyone can point me in where I can find something that can play back the pitch when I hit in numbers, that would be great. Thanks


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Download Audacity. Then create a new track and add sine wave frequencies of the tones in your scale. Make each tone last about half a second each, then playback the scale.

If by 100 key scale, you mean a scale made up from 100 intervals, I can tell you now that your ear won't be able to differentiate between all those microtones. There's a reason why most scales have between 4 and 8 intervals. You may as well have an analogue glissando from root to octave.


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## sammyooba (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm just exploring.


I don't know if its possible but I'm searching for a scale that has no diminished or augmented chords.

With 8 keys, if we use 2 half steps and 5 whole steps, we have a major-sounding chord. 

A 1.5 step with a half step and 5 whole step creates a minor-sounding chord. 

The problem is that I keep getting diminished or augmented chords which I want to avoid. 

I doubt it's possible but just exploring pretty much.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

You could just download the demo of a Digital Audio Workstation such as FL Studio or Ableton live. You won't be able to save your work, but if you are just exploring, this shouldn't be a problem. I know these programs have quite a few scales built in, but you can take it from from there.

There ought to be free midi sequencers out there too that would work. I just haven't used a midi sequencer in ages because DAWs are so much better. 

I can't really tell from your descriptions, but if you are experimenting with microtones, these programs can do that too. I've done it awkwardly by using two tracks of the same instrument, one tuned a quarter tone lower or higher to give me 24 notes to an octave instead of twelve. It's very hard to tell if I've hit exactly a quarter tone though, or if it stays that same interval throughout all the octaves. I don't really know the math and our ears aren't used to hearing those intervals.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Weston said:


> I can't really tell from your descriptions, but if you are experimenting with microtones, these programs can do that too. I've done it awkwardly by using two tracks of the same instrument, one tuned a quarter tone lower or higher to give me 24 notes to an octave instead of twelve. It's very hard to tell if I've hit exactly a quarter tone though, or if it stays that same interval throughout all the octaves. I don't really know the math and our ears aren't used to hearing those intervals.


I'm interested in doing some just intonation/microtonal exploration, particularly going past the 5-limit to 11- and 13-limit. I already do some on lap steel but it's incredibly difficult, if not impossible to get exact intervals. I normally aim for being within 5 to 10 cents either side of the actual tone I'm aiming for. So I'd like to go digital for better accuracy.

I've got a plan for arranging the tones onto the keys of a standard computer keyboard, as my tuning would be unplayable on anything resembling a piano layout. Do you know if you can use a computer keyboard as a basic MIDI controller with a DAW, or is there a very many small keyed controller available to buy?

I've been meaning to do this for a while but have been putting it off and focussing on other musical avenues because I simply don't have a clue how to implement it. I'm sure something like SuperCollider or Max/MSP could do what I want, but those programmes are just beyond my luddite scope.

This is probably a wasted post, but worth a punt none the less.:tiphat:


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## wingracer (Mar 7, 2011)

Argus said:


> Do you know if you can use a computer keyboard as a basic MIDI controller with a DAW, or is there a very many small keyed controller available to buy?


I have no idea but I believe it SHOULD be possible. Another possibility might be one of those touch pads I see a lot of electronic acts use where you can pretty much program each little "button" on the pad to play whatever you want.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

The DAWS have computer keyboard input for midi step sequencing, and it's quite intuitive. But they've already got it set up as Q=middle C, W=D, with "2" being C#, and so on, so it's very intuitive for keyboard palyers. What you're talking about, you'd have to reassign the keys. I haven't tried this but I assume it could be done. I'll play with it this weekend and let you know. 

I have a Yamahaha keyboard controller (61 keys) for when I want to do live input rather than step sequencing. That cost me about 300 USD, which is what, about £120? They may be cheaper today. 

My two channel method works okay for my 24 tone step sequencing. 

On second thought, if you're trying to do just intonation or other pre-well tempered tunings, I think you can detune individual keys! That would be the way to go. I'll look into that too this weekend.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

wingracer said:


> I have no idea but I believe it SHOULD be possible. Another possibility might be one of those touch pads I see a lot of electronic acts use where you can pretty much program each little "button" on the pad to play whatever you want.


Well, on a computer keyboard there won't be any sensitivity control, so the dynamics will just be 'sound on' or 'sound off', other than that it will be possible. It's just I don't have enough technical knowledge.

My intonation will have about 50 intervals per octave, so I'd need a MIDI controller with about 80 keys plus octave shift up/down. The scales will still have between 5 and 8 'steps', but the extra tones will be for modulation/harmonic movement. I've learned a lot from Partch's Monophonic theory but I don't exactly follow his plan. I could probably hook a up a few of those MIDI pads with a different batch of tones assigned to each controller but this would probably be worse than mapping them on a big piano keyboard.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Weston said:


> On second thought, if you're trying to do just intonation or other pre-well tempered tunings, I think you can detune individual keys! That would be the way to go. I'll look into that too this weekend.


That's the thing. I'll have to specify exact frequencies to each key, plus changing the names of the keys from C, C# etc to 1/1, 81/80 etc.

Even an 88-key MIDI keyboard in the piano style would mean a 4 'piano octave' stretch to play 1 'actual octave', then I could have about a 4/3 (a fourth) on either side of that a la a Chromelodeon. It would be playable as an accompaniment instrument or as a composition tool for experimenting but not conducive to live solo playing.










This band use a tuning based on Partch's idea's, and they play on piano keyboards. Watch your ears if you're used to 5-limit tuning:






P.S. When I say computer keyboard I mean like an auxiliary one, so I can use the regular one for tinkering with the DAW controls and stuff, and one exclusively for sound producing.


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## wingracer (Mar 7, 2011)

Oh I agree, remapping a keyboard would probably be the better way to go but you seemed to be looking for other options.

I need to dig out my keyboard. It's a cheapo but has a lot of tuning options. I just don't know if it can do individual keys. You have me curious.


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## sammyooba (Apr 8, 2009)

What I am exactly trying to do is 

find the 'almost perfect' music scale basing off the golden ratio 

--

The magic numbers discovered by Fibonacci:

1-2-3-5-8-13-21-etc...

The most common music scale, major and minor consists of -

13 keys

8 white keys

the 5th is the complement sound (if C were orange, then G is Blue)

the 3rd is the tension sound (if 3 mini steps, the chords tension will be minor and fall to the 'cool' side of the color wheel, if 4 mini steps, the chord tension will be major, and fall to the 'warm' side of the color wheel)

---

I believe that 13 keys is not enough to create the perfect music scale.

So I will break the octave into 21 keys.

I would have 13 keys, my 8th would be like the 5th, and my 5th would be like the 3rd.

This should be true and the intervals should be even more accurate (but probably not even noticeable)

--

The 2nd thing I wanted to explore was the 'almost perfect' l music scale.

A pattern I noticed in scales is that the more augmented or diminished chords a scale has, the more it will deviate from beauty. For example, the whole tone scale has a lot of augmented chords, thus, it sounds unpretty. The minor and major scale has only 1 diminished chord, thus is sounds good.

A scale that has no diminished or augmented is the pentatonic scale, but it lacks sound.

My goal is to find a scale with absolutely no diminished or augmented chords.

I'm going to experiment around next week when I have more free time.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

sammyooba said:


> . . .
> So I will break the octave into 21 keys.
> 
> I would have 13 keys, my 8th would be like the 5th, and my 5th would be like the 3rd.
> ...


That sounds interesting. I'd like to hear what you find out. I wonder what that would do to voice leading, to tension and resolution? Or maybe that's part of what you're trying to avoid.

Voice leading is what I was trying to discover about the 24 tone scale. Pretty silly of me since I barely understand it in 12. I just thought if the 7th note of the scale wants very badly to resolve to the octave or root, would the 7th and a half do it even more? (In my experiments, not really.)


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

sammyooba said:


> A scale that has no diminished or augmented is the pentatonic scale, but it lacks sound.
> 
> My goal is to find a scale with absolutely no diminished or augmented chords.
> 
> I'm going to experiment around next week when I have more free time.


I think James Tenney already used the Fibonacci sequence/Golden ratio in some of his works.

I think a problem for you is that you seem to still be thinking in terms like 'augmented', '5ths' etc. These are designed specifically to apply to the diatonic tonal system. Once you turn away from it you are better thinking in actual acoustic terms like frequency, cents or intervallic ratios.

I don't buy into the idea of there being a 'perfect scale'. If anything a scale based on either the harmonic series, which would be the most natural, or the simplest possible numerical ratios, which would be consonant (theoretically).

Also, what do you mean pentatonics lack sound. They are my favourite kind of scales. Audava ragas rule

Back to software:

After a bit of research, I found a program called Scala which looks pretty good for scale creating. It even has tonality diamonds.

There is also this website, which has a database of various synths that support non-12 TET tunings. Most soft synths have full MIDI tuning range per note, it's just a case of mapping that out onto a playable interface.

I've yet had a good chance to look at either of these, but hopefully they'll be of some use (if I can figure them out).


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