# Robert Schumann Appreciation Thread



## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

The rapport in the Top 25 Composers thread encouraged me to make a special place where the music of Robert Schumann, 'The Romantic of the Romantics', could be share and discussed, since discussion of this composer seems to have dwindled as of late. But I know there are quite a few Schumann fans out there, as well as many who are curious about his music. So this thread is for you! 






The above duet is one of the most heavenly examples of Schumann's poetic genius... a duet of two lovers... so gorgeous that no adjective can quite describe it. In this case it's best to let the immeasurable beauty of the music speak for itself.






The sense of longing and love in the above Fantasy is heart-wrecking - precisely what made me fall in love with Schumann's music. The composer's own romance - its struggles, triumphs, and ultimate bitter end makes this piece all the more compelling and irresistible. After a survey of over 15 versions of this piece, I still come back to Sviatoslav Richter as the standard... magical sense of control and shading that makes the hues of this piece stand out exactly where they should, though he never plays with such confidence to dissolve the sense of the mystery that shrouds the first/third movements from beginning to end.

For me, Schumann's pianistic output outshines that of even Chopin and Liszt in sheer poetry and romanticism. His music can be considered the height of Romanticism in music just as Mozart's was for the Classical era. In a similar way, he took the innovations of the period and brought them to a level that no other composer could imitate, just as Mozart did. The tendency to lump Schumann and Brahms together has always seemed absurd to me - their musical style and strengths are worlds apart. Understanding Schumann is a much different task than understanding the music of Brahms, and for many, a slightly more difficult one.


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## opus55 (Nov 9, 2010)

I got teary eyed the first time I heard Richter's recording of Waldszenen. Then I heard a series of radio program about Schuman and his wife (and Brahms) which got me more interested in both Brahms and Schumann.

I recently purchased Zinman/Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich's 2-disc set which I listen to every other day for last two weeks I owned them.









Also just heard this recording which is supposed to recreate the setting where Brahms and Clara played clarinet sonatas with a virtuoso clarinetist Richard Muhlfeld in Schumann's house. Lovely recording.









Most of his piano and chamber works I heard so far are excellent too. I'm looking forward to hearing more of his works. I admit I underrated him in the past and not paid much attention to his works.


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## toucan (Sep 27, 2010)

Air said:


> The tendency to lump Schumann and Brahms together has always seemed absurd to me - their musical style and strengths are worlds apart. Understanding Schumann is a much different task than understanding the music of Brahms.


I have always felt the Schumann String quartets (marvels of the genre, perhaps the greatest between Beethoven and the moderns), would be better paired (on recordings) with Gabriel Fauré's quartet than with Brahms', as artists are accustomed to do.

But then I have long felt Fauré's main affinity was with Schumann, not Chopin.

Schumann may have unwittingly (and generously) cast himself in a somewhat withdrawn position, when he greated the more monumental Brahms as the new Beethoven.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Wow the duet is really beautiful, and I'm not a lieder guy.

Schumann's Funf Stucke im Volkston (I)




I love this piece


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I like Schumann a lot but don't dig why would someone consider him to be most poetic of all. His chamber music is often so conservative and formalistic that doesn't get poetic at all. He had a lot of talent to write poetic piano miniatures and stuff though. But things like _Im Wunderschönen Monat Mai_ are too sweet, neither Liszt or Chopin didn't cross that line in their miniatures. He is and I suppose will remain below both Chopin and Liszt on my romantic piano geezers list.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

In many ways, the _Piano Quartet_ is even more lovely than the _Piano Quintet_ and the 3rd movement of the piece is a good testament to this. While the Piano Quintet explores the clashing forces of strife and joy through the use of immense power and contrast, the Piano Quartet seems to emulate the huge output of lieder Schumann wrote with its gorgeous, drawn-out melodies and delicate, silky texture. The piano certainly does not have as commanding of a presence in the Quartet to drive it along in the same way it does in the Quintet. It can almost be said that these melodies are interwoven together between the instruments of the quartet as if Schumann was magically holding together several very fine pieces of silk. For me, the interplay between the instruments is reminiscent of the lovers calling in the op. 74 _Liederspiel_ I posted in the thread's original post, but the end sections also integrate a directional, even dance-like feel one would expect in the music of a composer like Beethoven and Brahms. I always find it amazing how Schumann can work in such a way (the balanced interweaving of yin and yang) even in his chamber music, especially in this movement of the Quartet where Schumann takes music to its absolute heights. In his day, both the Quartet and Quintet were highly influential works in their respective genres and listening to these two works, one can easily see why.

Now on to the trios!


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

I prefer Schubert's chamber music, piano works, symphonies and Lieder, in general. But that, just me.. In my opinion, Schumann's greatest contribution to music is by being a critic, and championing the composers such as Schubert, Brahms and Mendelssohn.

I think I need to listen to Schumann more.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

peeyaj said:


> I prefer Schubert's chamber music, piano works, symphonies and Lieder, in general. But that, just me.. In my opinion, Schumann's greatest contribution to music is by being a critic, and championing the composers such as Schubert, Brahms and Mendelssohn.
> 
> I think I need to listen to Schumann more.


It's true that Schumann often suffers a comparison to Schubert and Brahms, but I find this sort of comparison unnecessary simply because he is so different from both of them. A lot of what he has to day has to do with struggle, about always portraying a clash between the driving aspect of the music and the sensitive aspect. His music displays a deep intuition and certain warm-bloodiness that is all-consuming of the listener but at the same time forces him to open his ears to the quiet sounds beneath the surface. Partly due to his mental struggles, Schumann's music really symbolizes the spirit of Romantic music which lay in both the short-term and longer-term feelings of the artist. His musical voice displays such feelings, as it is often drawn-out, shifting, sure and then unsure, and for many, this is what can make Schumann so difficult to follow. But it really is fascinating, Schumann's world.

I do consider Schubert the greater composer, but not by a long run. I prefer Schumann in piano works and concerti definitely, and the other forms are all quite divided. However, in comparison to Mendelssohn, I easily consider Schumann the greater composer.

Here's a few recommendations to get you started:

1. Papillons, op. 2 - This is only Schumann's second opus, but already he does some remarkable things. He wrote exclusively piano works for the first part of his career and many of these are lighthearted and meant as simply a joyful expression of the world around him. He explores one feeling after another, as if he is hopping between different creatures that all provide a sort of pleasure.
2. Dichterliebe, op. 48 - _Dichterliebe_ is one of the greatest song cycles along with Schubert's, written in 1840 along with over a hundred other lieder. More so than Schubert, Schumann tends to concentrate on the quality of the melody and the momentary feel of each phrase, and how it rolls. Wunderlich is generally considered the most exquisite singers for these works. I would also check out, if you have not already, the Liederspiel in the original post, a lovely duet that reveals all the Schumannesque features I mentioned above. Plus, it's cool, since it's relatively unknown.
3. Piano Concerto, op. 54 - I consider the Piano Concerto by Schumann his greatest work, and one of the greatest concertos ever written. His wife Clara was a pianist, and the work is perfectly fabricated that his conducting could interplay with the piano to creates a sort of romantic adventure and harmony. The theme C-B-A-A stands for Clara and is inverted throughout the piece. The piece also represents a sort of spiritual transformation which ends in the bath of sunlight that is the third movement.
4. Fantasie in C, op. 17 - The Fantasy is one of my favorite piano works which I already mentioned in the first post. As you see, I really favor Richter in the piano works but in reality, I like Cortot just as much.
5. Piano Quintet, op. 44 and Piano Quartet, op. 47.

You might want to hear his symphonies and definitely the cello/violin concertos at some point too. Sorry if I exhausted you, I tend to do that with recommendations.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I was able to hear his _Cello Concerto_ live here in Sydney last year - a very poetic & lyrical work. I think it's a pity that people tend to jump straight from Haydn's works in the genre to Dvorak and Elgar, missing Schumann's marvellous contribution in the process. It's great that it's getting more outings in the concert halls and there are also a good number of fine recordings of it on disc. I have it played in the 1950's by Maurice Gendron with the Suisse Romande under Ansermet (on the budget lable Decca Eloquence). The two disc set also has accounts of the first two symphonies, piano concerto (with Dinu Lipatti, surely one of the finest interpreters of the work) & two other works. I'll have to go back to the 2 symphonies, as they didn't grab me at first...


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Thanks, Air, for the recommendations. I will definitely check them out.

Schumann's Piano concerto is gorgeous! Together with Grieg's, these are my favorite piano concerti in theRomantic era. Do you have any idea, why they are recorded and packaged together? It's a mystery me..


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

peeyaj said:


> Schumann's Piano concerto is gorgeous! Together with Grieg's, these are my favorite piano concerti in theRomantic era. Do you have any idea, why they are recorded and packaged together? It's a mystery me..


The Schumann concerto probably influenced Grieg when he was writing his own concerto later. Grieg studied in Liepzig, Germany, if I remember correctly, so he was steeped in the German romantic traditions which Schumann represented...


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Wow - that Fantasie in C is a really great piece. Thanks for posting the link. I'm glad I've finally listened to that one, and am starting to really understand the greatness of Schumann's piano works.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Andre said:


> I was able to hear his _Cello Concerto_ live here in Sydney last year - a very poetic & lyrical work. I think it's a pity that people tend to jump straight from Haydn's works in the genre to Dvorak and Elgar, missing Schumann's marvellous contribution in the process. It's great that it's getting more outings in the concert halls and there are also a good number of fine recordings of it on disc. I have it played in the 1950's by Maurice Gendron with the Suisse Romande under Ansermet (on the budget lable Decca Eloquence). The two disc set also has accounts of the first two symphonies, piano concerto (with Dinu Lipatti, surely one of the finest interpreters of the work) & two other works. I'll have to go back to the 2 symphonies, as they didn't grab me at first...


I thought the Cello Concerto is on of his more popular work... and it is a great work.
A great piece that no one talks about is the third SQ, which is one of my favorites SQs, and definitely one of my favourites pieces by him. And I think he also deserves some credit for the oboe romances.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

My favorite Schumann work is certainly the wonderful piano concerto. But many of his chamber pieces such as the piano quintet are lovely as well. My daughter plays cello, and his cello concerto is quite frequently played by students. In fact she played it before playing Haydn.

I must also say his 3rd and 4th symphonies are delightful. The 2nd movement of the 4th is hauntingly beautiful.

Mostly here I wanted to mention the violin concerto. It is rarely played and in fact was in effect banned. Joseph Joachim, whom Schumann wrote the work for. refused to play the piece. Apparently both Joachim and Clara (Schumann's wife) felt the work subpar and perhaps a product of Schumann's late illness. The piece was banned from being published or played for 100 years after Schumann's death (either in Clara's or Joachim's will). Eventually it was played in 1937. I absolutely adore the work. It is somewhat repetitive, and I can understand people feeling it might not be up to Schumann's standards. Nevertheless, the work is simply gorgeous from beginning to end.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I have a soft spot for the 1st Symphony "Spring" because I played it during my university orchestra days. Its not as technically sophisticated as the 3rd but its filled with beautiful passages. Especially love the horn solo during the recapitulation of movement 2.

The premiere of Schumann's 1st was a huge success and was reported to be one of the happiest days of Schumann's life.

The Bernstein cycle is IMHO the definitive recording of all four symphonies.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I am going to have a crack at a large scale Schumann work that seldom gets a mention, even amongst fans of Schumann and even amongst fans of that genre. _Genoveva_, op.81.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

HC, I'm glad to hear that.

It's good we have conductors like Harnoncourt who are willing to champion this work. His claim that _Genoveva_ is the finest opera of the second half of the 19th century isn't to be taken too seriously, but it's true that both Schumann and Wagner probably picked up a lot from each other, no matter how little they would have liked to acknowledge it themselves. From what I've heard, _Genoveva_ has clear Wagnerian influences, with no recitatives/virtuosic passages and an "orchestra-driven" character, but it also has a lot of aspects that foretell many of the innovations of _Tristan und Isolde_. Of course, the vocal writing is gorgeous and is comparable to some of his lieder, but it's the psychological aspects of the work that make it so innovative. The opera is centered on Golo, a mentally ill character, and an "unfaithful" wife who is innocent but faces condemnation. It's not tame, and contains all the drama of a work like the 4th symphony.

I have heard both good and bad things about the minimalist "Euro-trash" staging in Harnoncourt's DVD, with some saying it adds to the psychological aspects of the music and plot while others saying it's just plain boring. I don't know whether the opera drags or not, since I haven't watched it in full and don't own the DVD either.

It would be much appreciated if you posted your thoughts on the DVD after watching it.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

I've begun relistening to some of Schumann's choral works today. His oratorios _Scenes from Goethe's Faust_ and _Das Paradies und die Peri_ are two of my favorites. Probably one of the reasons his choral works are lesser known is because they tend to be more subtle than the music of his contemporaries such as Berlioz and Verdi, who really knew how to get the extra "umph" out of the orchestra itself (even in their Requiems!). But Schumann concentrated mainly on what he could do with the voice, the melodies and the harmonies, and for me, this is quite refreshing. He certainly was well-read in literature, and his oratorios reflect this and read as well as any of Mozart's da Ponte operas. I think there's a lot of subtlety in the way he uses the chorus to reflect the text and different facets of feeling, and one has to really learn how to "appreciate the moment" rather than waiting for the "umphs" that occur in a piece like Verdi's _Requiem_. There certainly is a lot of "umph" in the end of _Das Paradies und die Peri_ though. I've heard the libretto called cheesy before, but set to music it is glorious.

One of my favorite bits (absolutely gorgeous singing with Gardiner's conducting!):






The finale of the oratorio:






An interesting fact: apparently Schumann considered Das Paradies his greatest work. That's a bit of an overstatement - maybe his greatest choral work, but the Faust Scenes are definitely up there too.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

peeyaj said:


> Schumann's Piano concerto is gorgeous! Together with Grieg's, these are my favorite piano concerti in theRomantic era. Do you have any idea, why they are recorded and packaged together? It's a mystery me..


written in a minor, electric chordal beginning with percussion, followed by mellow theme(s), 1st movement cadenza, uber-romantic, three movements, major key middle movement, glorious ending in a major, etc. etc. 

If I recall, both concerti also have attaca into the third movement. (Can someone confirm this?)

_But they're so different._


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Hehe, the quartet 3rd movement really caught my ear, and I've just noticed it was already posted here.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

pjang23 said:


> Hehe, the quartet 3rd movement really caught my ear, and I've just noticed it was already posted here.


What quartet?


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Oh sorry, I meant the piano quartet. It's on the first page.


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

I think Schumann is possibly a grower as far as Composers go and has some very inspired moments throughout the works I have listened to .
Works I like by this Composer are the PC, Fantasie In C, Piano Quartet, 3rd Symphony and recently the SQ's. I like the Piano Quintet as well but I'm a bit disappointed in his Piano Trios, although I plan to persist with these.
On another Forum I read Schumann is the butt of a lot of jokes which I can't really understand! .


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

The 1st movement of Op. 17 may be as unabashedly expressive as solo piano music ever got.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Time for some controversy. 

What do people think of this recording of the Schumann Piano Concerto on period instruments? The pianist is Andreas Staier. He's a good harpsichordist, but I've never heard him on the fortepiano before.














I thought it was OK, although so far I haven't been able to listen to it except on little headphones. The orchestral writing makes more sense; the piano seems too weak, but that might just be Staier. Honestly, I think Brahms 1 would benefit more from period instruments, or at least, 19th-century instruments (cf. Brahms Op. 5 on an 1897 piano).


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

*Schumann's only opera, Genoveva.*

From my notes in the TC opera on DVD/Blu-Ray forum:-

*Robert Schumann*, _Genoveva_ (1850), opera in four acts.
Orchestra & Chorus of the Zurich Opera House/Nicholas Harnoncourt (2008)
Genoveva - Juliane Banse
Golo- Shawn Mathey
Siegfried - Martin Gantner
Margaretha - Cornelia Kallisch

I wanted a relatively recent recording of _Genoveva_, given that there are only a few versions around (whether CD or DVD/Blu-ray), and one that is under the baton of a conductor who I enjoy, so it was an easy choice with this 2008 production under Harnoncourt. He has another recording of the same work directing the Chamber Orchestra of Europe and the Arnold Schoenberg choir on CD, performed and recorded much earlier (not sure exactly when), but I rather take the staged version, which brings me to the first point about the staging ...

This is an extremely avant-garde production. Now there are generally two types of these extremes: (1) that is completely silly, non-sensical and distractive in just about every minute of the performance, then (3) at the other extreme, you sense that some stylish interpretation is going to support the plot and music, i.e. modern but generally intelligent. This version of _Genoveva_ falls into category (2), somewhere in-between the extremes I suggested, perhaps nearer to (1) at a number of occasions. There is much symbolism involved, perhaps too much, so that it would leave many wondering what that was all about; fine if one was perhaps reading a novel or enjoying some other form of the arts, but when it comes to opera when every moment of the score reveals something important to the whole, excessive symbolism becomes a distraction. There were only two scenes used during the production: one was essentially bright white and the other was near total darkness, each with very little furniture/items. As Schumann picked a libretto (with writings of his own) to tell an old medieval story that was familiar to his original audience, it doesn't often make any sense when a modern version trys to lift it out of its time and imbue with puzzling staging that distract the story telling, especially one that essentially involves medieval identities and beliefs.

Thankfully though, the music itself was as glorious as any large scale Schumann, as a master of mid-Romantic instrumental idiom. The opera was framed around relatively traditional operatic settings - overture, recitatives and arias/chorus. There were several large duets, which I thought were the best dramatic vocal music he had written on a larger scale, leading into chorus. A comparison with Richard Wagner is perhaps inevitable, given that both composers premiered operas at the same year; Wagner with _Lohengrin_ also 1850. Wagner pointed forwards to a new style, whereas Schumann kept with the developments and style of his day. Regardless, it is the music that counts, and I think Schumann wrote beautiful pieces that didn't owe much at all to influences from Wagner.

Some fine singing from the lead singers, although I thought Mathey (Golo) was perhaps nervous during the first act, but warmed up enough during the rest. Kallisch (the witch, Margaretha) portrayed her character with as much coldness as one might expect a bad witch might do, and Banse (Genoveva) expressed the rather one-dimensional purity of Genoveva very well. Harnoncourt was up to his usual standards, although I thought the recitatives were a touch slow (I'm of the view that recitatives should be played at a suitably fast pace to keep the drama going). Orchestral playing was first rate.

Fans of Schumann need not hesitate on the music and the performance, although the staging would leave much more to be desired.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Thanks for the review HC, and it's nice to hear you enjoyed the music at least. 

I'm glad you've warned us about the minimalist staging and the (what you felt was) overdone symbolism. I've heard reviews that described the staging and production in general as very slow, and with only two really empty sets I can definitely see why. Let's hope that they come out with something a bit more traditional for this opera one of these days! 

Anyhow, I'll definitely try to snatch a CD of it if I get the chance, and it's good to know that Genoveva will continue to be remembered at least as long as Harnoncourt is around. It's one of his favorites, interestingly - he prefers Schumann's operas to Wagner's!


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Three piano favorites...


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