# Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck



## clavichorder

I don't mean no disrespect, but every time I try Sweelinck again, I'm always kind of disappointed. How can a guy who wrote such noodly and kind-of-square keyboard music be considered one of the greatest keyboard composers of the early 17th century? Why do they cite him as a being a later influence on John Bull? I certainly don't hear that noodly squareness in my good boy Johnny Bull's gorgeous jewells! Sure, Bull was exiled from England and met up with Sweelinck in the Netherlands, but Bull's music just sounds so much more interesting. Even more baffling to me is that I've heard his influence was as far reaching as J.S. Bach! 

Maybe there I'm doing Sweelinck wrong. All I've really done is sight read his keyboard music on the piano and listen to harpsichord recordings. Is he better on the organ? Did he write some notable non-keyboard works? Can someone help me out here?

Edit:
As I suspected, he does indeed sound better on the organ. I guess I've been approaching him from the Fitzwilliam Virginal book perspective...


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## Ukko

Have you heard Gould play him?


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## clavichorder

Hilltroll72 said:


> Have you heard Gould play him?


I've watched this video on youtube of him and thought it was one of the better things I've heard, I may benefit from a re-listening as my 'hearing aids' seem to have evolved more over the last few months:


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## Renaissance

Well, Sweelinck inspired Bach in same important ways, for example : "he was the first to write an organ fugue which began simply, with one subject, successively adding texture and complexity until a final climax and resolution, an idea which was perfected at the end of the Baroque era by Bach" (Wikipedia). Sweelinck was also the first who use the pedal as a real fugue-part. I think these contributions were really an important foundation for what Bach managed to succeed almost 100 years later. He was also an active composer for voice, having composed more than 250 work in this field. (chansons, madrigals, motets, few liturgical settings), but he was more conservative in this area. And he wasn't restricted only to the traditions of one church. Very unusual for that time...

So, I guess his "greatness" may have something to do with the fact that he was the first to establish German organ tradition. I don't really like his keyboard works, like you said he sounds a lot better on organ.


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## Ingélou

I've just discovered him - the _*Orpheus of Amsterdam*_ - and am listening to Ton Koopman play his works on harpsichord. 
I like him; and he had a lot of influence, as said above. So I think he deserves some more appreciative entries in his own Composer Guestbook: fair is fair!


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## Manxfeeder

I'm the oddball here; I know Sweelinck through his vocal music. He writes imitative counterpoint that isn't cluttered. Maybe William Byrd is a comparison.


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## regenmusic

Enjoying: Sweelinck's Fantasia Chromatica in Werckmeister tuning on YT. 
Not Gould's playing, but someone else playing a harpsichord.


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## Taggart

*Sweelinck Biography*










Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck (Deventer April or May 1562 - Amsterdam, 16 October 1621) was a Dutch composer, organist, and pedagogue. The family moved to Amsterdam in 1564 and his father was organist of the Oude Kerk, dying in 1573. In 1578, Amsterdam became Calvinist as did Sweelinck. Although it is stated that he became organist of the Oude Kerk in 1577, the records are missing and we can only trace him from 1580. Sweelinck held the post until his death. As the city was Calvinist, he did not play during church services, but rather played metrical psalm tunes beforehand so that the congregation could become familiar with them. Sweelinck wrote settings for the entire psalter. One of his settings of psalm 23 appears in the Susanne van Soldt Manuscript showing the use of his music in pedagogy.






His employment allowed him time for teaching, for which he was to become as famous as for his compositions. Sweelinck's pupils included the core of what was to become the north German organ school. Sweelinck most probably spent his entire life in Amsterdam, only occasionally visiting other cities in connection with his professional activities: he was asked to inspect organs, give opinions and advice on organ building and restoration, etc.

Some of Sweelinck's innovations were of profound musical importance, including the fugue-he was the first to write an organ fugue which began simply, with one subject, successively adding texture and complexity until a final climax and resolution, an idea which was perfected at the end of the Baroque era by Bach. It is also generally thought that many of Sweelinck's keyboard works were intended as studies for his pupils. He was also the first to use the pedal as a real fugal part.






Sweelinck's works also appear in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book - a recognition of his links to English composers such as Peter Philips a catholic recusant who spent much time in Brussels but who met Sweelinck in the 1590s. Phillips had worked for Thomas Paget who was a patron to William Byrd. John Bull also met Sweelinck after fleeing England on a charge of adultery (the Archbishop of Canterbury remarked the man hath more music than honesty and is as famous for marring of virginity as he is for fingering of organs and virginals). Bull wrote a series of variations on a theme of Sweelinck when Sweelinck died.






Sweelinck was a master improviser, and acquired the informal title of the "Orpheus of Amsterdam". He represents the highest development of the Dutch keyboard school, and indeed represented a pinnacle in keyboard contrapuntal complexity and refinement before J.S. Bach. However, he was a skilled composer for voices as well, and composed more than 250 vocal works (chansons, madrigals, motets and Psalms).


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

This is apparently a very influential and innovative work






I hadn't heard of this composer before, so thank you Clavichorder for this thread and Ingélou for reviving it!


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## ptr

^^ I can thoroughly recommend Harald Vogel's Sweelinck CD on MDG!










@ the Schwalbennest-Orgel St. Marien Lemgo!

Harald Vogel is one of the finest Baroque Organ interpreters!

/ptr


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

just thinking, I enjoyed that piece above, but I someht hat agree on the "noodly squareness" aspect of his music. However, this is an aesthetic which I enjoyed in the above piece. 

I would like to hear some his choral music, can anyone recommend anything? Or even other organ music would be great.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

ptr said:


> ^^ I can thoroughly recommend Harald Vogel's Sweelinck CD on MDG!
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> @ the Schwalbennest-Orgel St. Marien Lemgo!
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Thanks ptr! exactly the sort of thing I'm after.


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## Ingélou

This is all very nice. I must say how much I like Sweelinck's instrumental music. Manxfeeder has said that he appreciates the uncluttered line of Sweelinck's vocal music, so I hope (pretty please) that he'll come back and give some examples.


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## Ingélou

Here is Clavichorder's example of Glenn Gould playing Sweelinck. Thanks, Clavichorder. :tiphat:


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## Ingélou

An example of Sweelinck's vocal music:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

ptr what do you think of this one?










The toccata that started that off was ****** awesome


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## Ingélou

Sweelinck is definitely one of my happier discoveries!


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## Manxfeeder

Here's a nice video of his vocal music. Though the acoustic is resonant and the choir is pretty large, nothing feels cluttered about his vocal writing. The subtitles are nice also, if you read Latin.


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## ptr

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ptr what do you think of this one?


Haven't heard that disc, but generally I've not warmed that much to Suzuki's interpretations and playing, I often find them HIP in the wrong way in being overly literal, but as I wrote, haven't heard this disc so it may be the one that proves me wrong!

You asked about choral works, I have this 3CD set and find it very convincing!












> *Choral Works Sweelinck - Vol. I, II, III*
> Composer(s): Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck (1562-1621)
> 
> Artist(s): Netherlands Chamber Choir
> Peter Phillips / William Christie / Ton Koopman / Jan Boeke / Philippe Herreweghe / Willem Bremer
> René van Laken / Harry Ries / Wim Bécu / Paul van Nevel
> 
> Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck (1562-1621) is one of the few composers of the Northern Netherlands who enjoyed an international reputation. Even during his lifetime, he attracted students from far and wide, who came to learn from him, copy his music and adopt his style. On returning to their native countries, they would not only take back a pile of Sweelinck's compositions but also a deep respect for this modest 'Orpheus of Amsterdam'. Sweelinck undertook and completed the massive effort of composing musical settings for all 150 Psalms, using the rhymed French-language versions by Marot and De Bèze. In both the Psalms and Cantiones Sacrae he demonstrates a deep knowledge of the major French and Italian compositional techniques - Homophony, strict counterpoint, imitation, chanson and madrigal styles are all to be found here. From its formation in 1937 onwards, the renown of the Nederlands Kamerkoor has grown rapidly and the quality of the ensemble has inspired leading composers; including Frank Martin, Francis Poulenc, James MacMillan and Sir John Tavener, to compose works for a cappella chorus. The choir has developed into an all-round ensemble that has mastered all facets of choral music, and is considered to be one of the world's best. Bernard Winsemius, a connoisseur of church music, organ and carillon, is the ideal organist to play this repertoire. Peter Phillips (Tallis Scholars), Ton Koopman (The Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra) and William Christie (Les Arts Florissants) have all earned a reputation as choral conductors and they frequently tour the world with their Renaissance- and Baroque ensembles.


(From the label info page)

And to get the right feel for his music and the surrounding culture I recommend a pilgrimage to Ostfriesland, for what I understand, the ancient dialect spoken there is the closes we have today to what was spoken in the north of Holland and Germany at the time of Sweelinck!

/ptr


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## Manxfeeder

ptr said:


> You asked about choral works, I have this 3CD set and find it very convincing!


There's some lovely singing in that set.


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## clavichorder

Well thank you all for having something reassuring to add to my uncertain guestbook entry for Sweelinck, a while back. I wanted to comment that I have read this line before that Taggart posted, and find much enjoyment in it:

"John Bull also met Sweelinck after fleeing England on a charge of adultery (the Archbishop of Canterbury remarked the man hath more music than honesty and is as famous for marring of virginity as he is for fingering of organs and virginals)."


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## Mandryka

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ptr what do you think of this one?
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I agree that this is a really valuable CD - if you're open to Suzuki's tough style. Harald Vogel released a reallu oustanding Sweelinck organ CD, it was supposed to be the start of a series but it seems to have ground to a halt.

Having said that, I'm not a great fan of Sweelinck's keyboard music, which sometimes seems a bit repetitious, long winded. I like Weckmann more.


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## harryz

Especially Volume III. I just found these for less than $5 each new and grabbed all three, and then I saw this thread. Now I just want to listen to all of them some more...

Harry


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