# Messiaen on Rhythm



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Messiaen said this of Classical Music:

"The Classics, in the Western sense of the term, were bad rhythmicians, or, rather, composers who knew nothing of rhythm"

He went on to explain Bach's had harmonic colours, but no rhythm. I got into this debate a couple times here on TC on Bach's music. I argued the Beatles music had more rhythmic complexity. You can argue there is certainly rhythm in individual voicing, but in a macro sense, there is a bit of monotony in Bach's rhythms in many of his works. Agree?


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

It depends upon how one defines the word rhythm. 

I do not think I would agree with Messian about the definition.


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

To me, rhythm in the music of Bach and other baroque composers in general is much more attractive, interesting and sophisticated than typical modern composers' works. Rhythm is an integrated element of the excellence of their music. I think one of the problems of modern compositions is relative negligence of rhythm. Conservative works tend to have banal and uninteresting rhythm, and avantgarde composers use complex rhythm but they do not seem to care about making memorable rhythmic figures. Minimalists like Reich, Glass, Ten Holt and postminimalists/totalists, influenced by the music of other regions (Africa, Asia, etc.) and popular music such as rock/jazz, take back the importance of rhythm into their compositions. Complexity is not necessarily the condition of good rhythm.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'd like to know more specifically what Messiaen is thinking of. In its largest sense rhythm is simply the distribution of events in time. A composer who knew "nothing" of rhythm could hardly create a satisfactory piece of music. 

There's music in the world that does more with rhythm than most Western classical music in having more complex beat patterns, but then those styles don't deal with counterpoint, complex tonality, and large-scale structures that depend on them. Classical music is actually extremely varied rhythmically, reflecting its origin in song, which allows for much rhythmic freedom, and dance, which requires a strong and regular beat.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

https://books.google.com/books?id=7... composers who knew nothing of rhythm&f=false

Messiaen criticizes a "strong and regular beat;" apparently he was referring to Bach's even eighth notes, which he said "relaxed" the listener. He then praises Mozart. He criticizes marches also.

http://matthewschellhorn.com/resources/pdfs/EPTA-Messiaen.pdf


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Andras Schiff says that one of the reasons Bach is so popular with young people today, perhaps more than any composer, is because of the regular dance-like rhythms in his work. This seems like a criticism along the lines of Bax's infamous "sewing machine" remark.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Reading an entire book on Messiaen is something I have been meaning to get to. In terms of reading about him in other books and articles, I do remember that he had scores of Bach and Webern with him when he was a prisoner of war. Music from the enemy, so to speak. I suppose Quartet for the End of Time is contrapuntal and has this pared down quality, which can be applied to both those composers. He was professor of music and knew it in depth, as an organist Bach would have been his staple repertoire. Some other influences where Wagner, Debussy, Stravinsky, and non-Western music. Given all this, like anyone else he could still express strong opinions.


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