# Bizet vs. Saint Saens, and some discussion for fun



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

It has occurred to me for a long time that both were French, highly musically (in Saint Saens case, universally) precocious, great melodists, and that their romantic feeling music is infused with a grace that looks back to the likes of Mozart and Handel, and all the same taking full advantage of the contemporary colorful style of orchestration then prevalent. I thought it would be an interesting contest of preference for TC members. Little more, other than the fact that neither of these guys are talked about very much in terms of their larger output here, at least in recent times. It would interesting to recount your personal experiences with these composers.

For me it is a difficult choice. I knew the most famous melodies of both from an early age. I don't even remember how I got acquainted with Carmen, I think I just knew the overture melodies from TV(quite possibly Sesame Street) or something and one day identified it after hearing it on the radio. I seem to remember an earlier familiarity with the name Georges Bizet. But I became acquainted with Saint Saens' music even earlier, with a childhood favorite film, Milo and Otis, that used pieces from Carnival of the Animals. I also watched a film, Babe, that featured his Organ Symphony finale at the end. After hearing him at the symphony around age nine, I got my parents to be me a CD of his works. I became obsessed with Piano Concertos 2 and 4 then, and nearly everything on that CD, though "The Swan" always bored me a little. In more recent times, I heard Bizet's Symphony in C live. But my experience with Saint Saens has been more than twice as extensive. I still find them both incredible likable composers.

Oops, I wanted to make this a poll. If mods could edit it, that would be nice, it would be interesting although it isn't a necessity.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

I don't have a preference between them. But that is so for me with a lot of music that isn't baroque. They both sound excellent to me, and excelled at writing in a variety of forms, so they both accomplished what they looked to accomplish in my eyes. Who is to say who is better, you know? At least, that's how it works in my eyes, because they are stylistically similar and both prolific. Maybe I should just ask myself who wrote more total works, or in more forms.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Love 'em both, basically. With their instrumental works, they foresaw the neo-classical trend to come much later. & both where masters of vocal music, all their music carries through this vocal quality. No wonder, as both adored Mozart.

I love* Bizet's*_ Symphony in C,_ written only when he was around 17! The slow movement with that oboe solo is amazing, I heard it live, and there was not a dry eye in the house! Not easy to bring off either, so maybe that's why its not played as often. Bizet was also an innovator in terms of_ Carmen_ foreshadowing verismo opera. Then you had _The Pearl Fishers_, which I think is equal to _Carmen,_ but very different (a lyrical opera, and one which is highly thematically unfied, the themes of the two big arias - one that famous duet - are carried right through the whole opera). No wonder Wagner paid tribute to Bizet as a great composer (so did Mahler).

As for* Saint-Saens, *love his_ Carnival of the Animals, _the piano concertos (hard to pick a favourite, maybe its the 5th, with its Arabic sounding melodies and even a snatch of gamelan in the middle movement). Also the 2 cello concertos are gems. I kind of was judgemental towards him before for being conservative, but I realised that he was radical in his own ways, esp. in his younger years. He was not far from Liszt as being a radical in those years. He was also, like Liszt, a very learned man, a kind of polymath and Renaissance man.

So if you do make that poll, put me down for both! But if I have to vote, it would be for Bizet, for that symphony, its pure joy!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Love 'em both, basically. With their instrumental works, they foresaw the neo-classical trend to come much later. & both where masters of vocal music, all their music carries through this vocal quality. No wonder, as both adored Mozart.

I love* Bizet's*_ Symphony in C,_ written only when he was around 17! The slow movement with that oboe solo is amazing, I heard it live, and there was not a dry eye in the house! Not easy to bring off either, so maybe that's why its not played as often. Bizet was also an innovator in terms of_ Carmen_ foreshadowing verismo opera. Then you had _The Pearl Fishers_, which I think is equal to _Carmen,_ but very different (a lyrical opera, and one which is highly thematically unfied, the themes of the two big arias - one that famous duet - are carried right through the whole opera). No wonder Wagner paid tribute to Bizet as a great composer (so did Mahler).

As for* Saint-Saens, *love his_ Carnival of the Animals, _the piano concertos (hard to pick a favourite, maybe its the 5th, with its Arabic sounding melodies and even a snatch of gamelan in the middle movement). Also the 2 cello concertos are gems. I kind of was judgemental towards him before for being conservative, but I realised that he was radical in his own ways, esp. in his younger years. He was not far from Liszt as being a radical in those years. He was also, like Liszt, a very learned man, a kind of polymath and Renaissance man.

So if you do make that poll, put me down for both! But if I have to vote, it would be for Bizet, for that symphony, its pure joy!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Well, I'd give the nod to Bizet based on sheer quality, but to Saint-Saens based on total quality of output (assuming such things are additive!) It never really occurred to me to compare them because they're so different.

Maybe it boils down to the question of: If I could only keep one, which would it be? And the answer is...it is...stay tuned...


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Both are top quality composers at their best, but I agree that Bizet has an extra poignancy behind his greatest works. But I love the fourth piano concerto of Saint Saens so much.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> Both are top quality composers at their best, but I agree that Bizet has an extra poignancy behind his greatest works. But I love the fourth piano concerto of Saint Saens so much.


You probably know this, but Liszt said that Saint-Saens' 4th piano concerto was the finest since Beethoven's ones.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Sid James said:


> You probably know this, but Liszt said that Saint-Saens' 4th piano concerto was the finest since Beethoven's ones.


Actually, I did not! I am not alone in my feeling of how great that work is, but I sometimes feel like it is underrapreciated since it has "warhorse"(to quote your thread) written all over it in the best possible ways. I bet the public would love it if they would play it more.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

As much as I like Bizet I don't think there is much doubt that Saint-Saens comes out on top.
There are so many holes in what has been posted above.
Saint-Saens has three symphonies including the organ symphony to take into account and I think it is superior to Bizet's.
He wrote three violin concertos,two cello concertos and the piano fantasy "Africa".
A number of organ works.
The opera "Helene" written for Nellie Melba" (Sid!).
Four symphonic poems including the ubiquitous "Danse Macabre",
Thirteen operas including "Samson and Delilah" which is not quite as good as "Carmen", but good.
The first film music.
A Requiem ,a Christmas Oratorio.
A lot of piano music and chamber music.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Ignoring opera - which is the civilized thing to do - removes the smoke from the subject. St. Saens was much more accomplished, with many more high quality works (the 4th PC isn't one of them).

It is interesting to compare the 1st symphonies of Bizet and Prokofieff. Both are retro...


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Ignoring opera - which is the civilized thing to do - removes the smoke from the subject. St. Saens was much more accomplished, with many more high quality works (the 4th PC isn't one of them).
> 
> It is interesting to compare the 1st symphonies of Bizet and Prokofieff. Both are retro...


The funny thing is, I think both of these composers would have considered opera to be a pretty fair choice on a list of benchmarks. Did TC all of a sudden become markedly less opera friendly? So many members here have even said lately that they just don't like the voice being used in music. I remember in '09, however, discussing music with a fair amount of people who I would say consider opera amongst the top 5 most important forms. I even remember reading one thread in particular about a member who was psyched about meeting a certain female singer, and a whole bunch of us posted in that thread and followed his story like it was a big event around here, looked at pictures, and generally kept the thread going until it was another sizable one. Where have all these guys gone?

I mean, it doesn't make much sense for us to just disregard such a complex and massive undertaking as an opera. A symphony is one thing, but writing a successful opera used to be looked at like a crowning achievement. To be the creative mind behind such a huge production, with a variety of music incidental to the story. A symphony already seems hard enough, but to be such a great success in opera as Bizet seems like a beast of an accomplishment to me. To gather that kind of funding and to employ an orchestra alongside several renowned soloists, and then to stage the thing. That must require a great composer in the first place, to muster that kind of momentum. I can understand people not having a taste for opera, but the accomplishment of producing one and writing that much music for just one production, I think deserves a ton of respect.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

/\ I doubt that it's a TC thing, _Luke_. It's I who is not opera-friendly.

And _Alma_ isn't around to keep the pot stirred.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

This might be a contentious comment but had Bizet not composed Carmen then he'd surely only be a historical footnote. That's not to say I don't rate him as a composer but his reputation rests largely on just that wonderful work and, to a lesser extent, the symphony in C, the L'Arlesienne music and a couple of other opera highlights such as 'Au fond du temple saint'. Granted most of Saint-Saens' operas have fallen into neglect but Samson et Dalila is still justifiably very popular and as an 'all-rounder' he surely beats Bizet hands down - if anything Saint-Saens was probably too prolific and set in his ways for his own good which led to some accusations of being a 'conveyor-belt' composer like Telemann in the previous century. Bizet's output as a whole has an imbalance that reminds me of another ill-fated great whose reputation rests on one towering operatic achievement and a smattering of other works - Mussorgsky. To sum up: Bizet was an impulsive but flawed genius who staked everything on success in the theatre and had his fair share of pre-Carmen clunkers whereas Saint-Saens was a master craftsman who was content to (and capable of) turning his hand to almost anything.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

This might be a contentious comment but had Bizet not composed Carmen then he'd surely only be a historical footnote.

Nonsense. Bizet is one of those composers... almost like Vivaldi, whose reputation rests upon a single spectacular work... but only to those not bothering to delve a bit deeper. _Carmen_ wasn't Bizet's only opera of merit. Enter the name Bizet into Amazon's search engine and you'll find that after Carmen and the Symphony in C the third work to pop up is The Pearl Fishers (Les Pecheurs de Perles)










There must be at least ten recordings of this work by major performers/companies... as well as DVDs

Bizet composed a slew of other operas... a number of which remain available in recording:










Bizet was also a talented song-writer... one of many from the period:










Neither would I suggest that the L' Arlésienne suites, the Symphony in C, the Petite Suite for orchestra of Jeux d'enfants, or the La Jolie Fille de Perth orchestral suite are not works to be swept aside.










Unfortunately Bizet died early (his late 30s) and there is little doubt that Saint-Saëns, who lived over twice as long as Bizet, produced a far greater body of marvelous music.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

The funny thing is, I think both of these composers would have considered opera to be a pretty fair choice on a list of benchmarks. Did TC all of a sudden become markedly less opera friendly? So many members here have even said lately that they just don't like the voice being used in music... I even remember reading one thread in particular about a member who was psyched about meeting a certain female singer, and a whole bunch of us posted in that thread and followed his story like it was a big event around here, looked at pictures, and generally kept the thread going until it was another sizable one. Where have all these guys gone?

It was the former member Almaviva who fired up this site with his passion for opera. A number of the members who shared in Alma's passion... including HarpsichordConcerto, MammaScarlatti, and myself... are still active here... but they probably find that Alma's own site, OperaLively, is much more conducive to sharing their passion. Personally, vocal music of every genre... opera, oratorios, cantatas, choral works, madrigals, chant, operetta, lieder, romances, mélodies, etc... are my abiding passion. I find it sad that so many here honestly dislike not only an art form as marvelous as opera... but music employing the human voice.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> This might be a contentious comment but had Bizet not composed Carmen then he'd surely only be a historical footnote.
> 
> Nonsense. Bizet is one of those composers... almost like Vivaldi, whose reputation rests upon a single spectacular work... but only to those not bothering to delve a bit deeper. _Carmen_ wasn't Bizet's only opera of merit. Enter the name Bizet into Amazon's search engine and you'll find that after Carmen and the Symphony in C the third work to pop up is The Pearl Fishers (Les Pecheurs de Perles)
> 
> ...


It's a pity you have to be that dismissive, St. Lukes - I did say HAD he not composed Carmen. Carmen is presumably the usual first point of call for anyone investigating Bizet's work. If it didn't exist I'd still argue that no other opera of his, however good they may be, would pique anyone's interest in quite the same way, nor would they (or he) be as popular, so maybe there wouldn't be the spur to 'delve deeper' to begin with. Would von Weber be remembered half as much had he not composed Der Freischutz? Anyway, I'm not going to go toe-to-toe with you over this - you are an intelligent person and very good at dismantling other people's arguments. Please note that is not meant to be a back-handed compliment or an insult.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> [...]
> It was the former member Almaviva who fired up this site with his passion for opera. A number of the members who shared in Alma's passion... including HarpsichordConcerto, MammaScarlatti, and myself... are still active here... but they probably find that Alma's own site, OperaLively, is much more conducive to sharing their passion. Personally, vocal music of every genre... opera, oratorios, cantatas, choral works, madrigals, chant, operetta, lieder, romances, mélodies, etc... are my abiding passion. I find it sad that so many here honestly dislike not only an art form as marvelous as opera... but music employing the human voice.




Yeah, sad. It's the human voice yelling (for sopranos it's screaming) that I detest. Most of the songs/lieder don't contain that stuff, so I have a chance to judge them on other things. And of course there are a few operas that are great as _music_; I can skim by the screaming parts.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> St. Saens was much more accomplished, with many more high quality works (the 4th PC isn't one of them).


You don't think so highly of the 4th PC? Why not?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> You don't think so highly of the 4th PC? Why not?


It is a well-constructed work demonstrating St. Saens' usual facility; no more. The guy composed a slew of works like that. Before I heard JVC's remastering of the Munch/Boston SO 3rd Symphony I thought that work was another of those. Hearing all of those amazing details changed that opinion. The 4th PC is not in that class though. (I like the 5th PC better, but it requires a master like Richter to lift it to greatness.) He did the cello virtuosos of the world great service by providing them the cello concerti. In fact, nearly all of his instrumental music is interesting, entertaining and very well crafted (I try to ignore that Boomty-boomp movement of the 2nd PC).


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Lukecash12 said:


> The funny thing is, I think both of these composers would have considered opera to be a pretty fair choice on a list of benchmarks. Did TC all of a sudden become markedly less opera friendly? So many members here have even said lately that they just don't like the voice being used in music. I remember in '09, however, discussing music with a fair amount of people who I would say consider opera amongst the top 5 most important forms. I even remember reading one thread in particular about a member who was psyched about meeting a certain female singer, and a whole bunch of us posted in that thread and followed his story like it was a big event around here, looked at pictures, and generally kept the thread going until it was another sizable one. Where have all these guys gone?
> 
> I mean, it doesn't make much sense for us to just disregard such a complex and massive undertaking as an opera. A symphony is one thing, but writing a successful opera used to be looked at like a crowning achievement. To be the creative mind behind such a huge production, with a variety of music incidental to the story. A symphony already seems hard enough, but to be such a great success in opera as Bizet seems like a beast of an accomplishment to me. To gather that kind of funding and to employ an orchestra alongside several renowned soloists, and then to stage the thing. That must require a great composer in the first place, to muster that kind of momentum. I can understand people not having a taste for opera, but the accomplishment of producing one and writing that much music for just one production, I think deserves a ton of respect.


I imagine they've decamped to other forums.
By far the most important side of m usic is .to me at least, the vocal side and I was terribly disappointed.
But we are mostly in the hands of teen weenies who cannot,on the whole ,take vocal stuff.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Yeah, sad. It's the human voice yelling (for sopranos it's screaming) that I detest. Most of the songs/lieder don't contain that stuff, so I have a chance to judge them on other things. And of course there are a few operas that are great as _music_; I can skim by the screaming parts.


Tush, tush, wretched man!


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Enough said.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

elgars ghost said:


> It's a pity you have to be that dismissive, St. Lukes - I did say HAD he not composed Carmen. Carmen is presumably the usual first point of call for anyone investigating Bizet's work. If it didn't exist I'd still argue that no other opera of his, however good they may be, would pique anyone's interest in quite the same way, nor would they (or he) be as popular, so maybe there wouldn't be the spur to 'delve deeper' to begin with. Would von Weber be remembered half as much had he not composed Der Freischutz? Anyway, I'm not going to go toe-to-toe with you over this - you are an intelligent person and very good at dismantling other people's arguments. Please note that is not meant to be a back-handed compliment or an insult.


These other operas,although pleasant enough,are not in the same league as Carmen.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

elgars ghost said:


> ...Granted most of Saint-Saens' operas have fallen into neglect but Samson et Dalila is still justifiably very popular and as an 'all-rounder' he surely beats Bizet hands down - if anything Saint-Saens was probably too prolific and set in his ways for his own good which led to some accusations of being a 'conveyor-belt' composer like Telemann in the previous century...


Yes, Saint-Saens own famous quote about him being like an apple tree - "I produce music like an apple tree produces apples." Maybe he's similar to Mendelssohn, if we want to talk of 19th century composers, a 'natural' at music with heaps of talent. Maybe too much in some ways? Saint-Saens' party trick was being able to play on demand (from memory) any of the sonatas of Beethoven. & he was the first to do a series of concerts of all the Mozart concertos since Wolfie's death.

But to be fair to Bizet, he did die much younger than Saint-Saens. And like the stereotypical Frenchman, Bizet comes across as a guy who has a life outside of music. Some call him too relaxed and lazy, and I think he had a young family. I just got a biography of Bizet and its on my to-read list. He's an interesting composer, and comes across as the kind of guy I wouldn't mind having a cup of coffee (or two!) and a chat with.

You remind me of _L'Arlesienne_, its also a gem by Bizet. I love how he uses the saxophone (first time it was used in a 'serious' classical piece, eg. outside things like wind band music and marches, like Sousa). Its _Adagietto_ actually reminds me somewhat - in vibe or atmosphere at least - of Mahler's one from the 5th symphony (but I don't know if Mahler knew this piece by Bizet, but I know he did admire his music generally). Then there's _Jeux d'enfants_, which is another delightful piece.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The funny thing is, I think both of these composers would have considered opera to be a pretty fair choice on a list of benchmarks. Did TC all of a sudden become markedly less opera friendly? So many members here have even said lately that they just don't like the voice being used in music... I even remember reading one thread in particular about a member who was psyched about meeting a certain female singer, and a whole bunch of us posted in that thread and followed his story like it was a big event around here, looked at pictures, and generally kept the thread going until it was another sizable one. Where have all these guys gone?
> 
> It was the former member Almaviva who fired up this site with his passion for opera. A number of the members who shared in Alma's passion... including HarpsichordConcerto, MammaScarlatti, and myself... are still active here... but they probably find that Alma's own site, OperaLively, is much more conducive to sharing their passion. Personally, vocal music of every genre... opera, oratorios, cantatas, choral works, madrigals, chant, operetta, lieder, romances, mélodies, etc... are my abiding passion. I find it sad that so many here honestly dislike not only an art form as marvelous as opera... but music employing the human voice.


I have to agree. Like I imagine you are, I could listen to cantatas for pretty much forever. Vocal music makes up for one of the most sizable chunks in classical music. Come to think of it, there are probably more vocal pieces than there are piano and chamber pieces put together. There's just gobs and gobs of it in the baroque.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Yeah, sad. It's the human voice yelling (for sopranos it's screaming) that I detest. Most of the songs/lieder don't contain that stuff, so I have a chance to judge them on other things. And of course there are a few operas that are great as _music_; I can skim by the screaming parts.


You might like baroque opera, then. Opera hadn't been warbled by the Italians yet at that point. Handel's Hercules, for example, is just as lively as a lot of more modern opera, but less overbearing. Of course, that an opera was written back then doesn't mean that it won't be interpreted in the typical light, sadly.


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## lukecubed (Nov 27, 2011)

Bizet by a country mile. Saint-Saens is a composer I like well enough when he's playing but can never remember a melody or hook from when he's not. He seems too indecisive to me--caught between the "classical" style of Mendelssohn etc. and the "modern" style of his buddy Liszt. His music splits the difference but feels to me like it's not at home in either camp (though this might be a strength for some listeners). Bizet sounds much more economical, focused, and uncluttered to me.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Definitely _S-Saens_ here. I find "The Pearl Fishers" terrible ! The only Bizet I might listen to now and then are the suites from "Carmen" and "L´Arlesienne", maybe the "Rome" orchestral suite, and a rare listen to the "Chromatic Variations" for piano - whereas a good deal of works by Saint-Saens will appeal to me.


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

I love both composers, but I've never found a work by Bizet that matches Saint-Saens’s mighty Organ Symphony for pure excitement!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Re Saint-Saens' 4th piano concerto, which clavi said is his favourite, he dedicated it to the memory of Bizet when he died in 1875. Saint-SAens had been a supporter and friend to Bizet, who had (like him) been accused of the worse thing levelled at French composers back then, which was being too much under Wagner's spell. The program of that memorial concert for Bizet was as follows:

Beethoven - 7th symphony
Saint-Saens - 4th piano concerto
Massenet - Lamento (written especially in memory of Bizet)
Galli-Marie read a poem by Louis Gallet in memory of Bizet, accompanied by the_ Adagietto _from Bizet's _L'Arlesienne_.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

lukecubed;376071 His music splits the difference but feels to me like it's not at home in either camp (though this might be a strength for some listeners). Bizet sounds much more economical said:


> Yeah, I have a completely opposite reaction. And cluttered is not something I would ever use to describe Saint Saens music, but to each his own.


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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

Not quite a fair contest since Bizet died quite early and S-S was probably the longest actively working major composer but i love the comparison between those two composers. They indeed were friends. Bizet even arranged S-S piano concerto 2 for solo piano and Introduction and Rondo Cappricioso for violin and piano. S-S stated that he felt a great friendship towards Bizet whereas e.g. Massenet was his rival. Apperently he also wept quite much when he heard of Bizets early death.

*Symphony:*

*Bizet:*
Symphony 1: A nice early piece recalling Mozart and quite much moddeled after Bizets teacher's Gounod symphony which Bizet had transcribed for two pianos. One is struck by this early manifestation of Bizets genius. Easily the best movement is imo the slow movement with an exquisite oboe solo.
*Saint-Saens:*
Symphony 1: Also a premature work with a really great pastoral first movement. The following scherzo is Mendelssohnian in character and also really good. The adagio employs rather much harp arpeggios and is probably a bit too long but still really calming (similiar to a Mahler adagio). The finale is influenced by Beethovens fifth. All in all a satisfying work.
Symphony 3: Easily the greatest symphonic achievment of the French late romanticism imo. Such great form coupled with exquisite orchestration and infectious rythms. And a finale rivaling the Beethoven 9th in splendor.

--> S-S wins big time here

*Concerto:*

Not even a question.

--> S-S wins without a contest. Keep in mind that of his major 10 concertos at least five are real masterpieces..... and there is not one romantic composer who was able to score so many hits in the concerto-genre.

*Opera:*

*Bizet:*
Carmen and The Pearlfishers are staples. One might even say that Carmen is the greatest and most popular opera ever written. Accomplishing such a feat against the Germans and Italian is rather spectacular. Also Carmen is full with famous melodies which cement Bizet as one of the great melodists in Classical music.

*Saint-Saens:*
S-S most succesfull operas are by a landslide Samson et Dalilah and Henry VIII. The former one is standard reportoire full of beautiful choruses, arias, orchestration and great vocal writing. Especially worthwile are Printemps qui commence, the Bacchanale, the overture and of couse the probably most famous lyric mezzo-soprano aria ever written Mon coeur souvre a ta voix.

--> Though S-S is not quite unknown in the world of opera Bizets Carmen is such a great work that Bizet wins more than easily

--> S-S wins and that is without counting his chamber work and other vocal music so there is not even a point in going further.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I have to go with Saint-Saens. Bizet, composing one of the most famous operas, wins in the opera category, but every other genre belongs to S-S.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> Oops, I wanted to make this a poll. If mods could edit it, that would be nice, it would be interesting although it isn't a necessity.


The poll that never came.


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