# Works that with just a bit more tinkering you think could have been great



## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

A bit presumptuous perhaps for us who are non-composers, but we make these judgements all the time. Pieces that impress us but there's just a nagging feeling that some adjustments (not _really_ substantial ones) would have made them so much better. So what aspects needed tinkering with and how could they have been improved?


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

I feel Sibelius's Andante festivo could have used more variation, the theme gets repeated a little too often.

The ending of Scriabin's Vers la flamme is a bit disappointing, but I understand Scriabin had to rush to finish it.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

The ending of Fauré's last movement of his string quartet should be a few bars longer


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I think Beethoven's Emperor Concerto could have been a lot better and maybe his best piano concerto if it had been less long winded and repetitive. As it stands, the 4th is my favorite one by far.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

violadude said:


> I think Beethoven's Emperor Concerto could have been a lot better and maybe his best piano concerto if it had been less long winded and repetitive. As it stands, the 4th is my favorite one by far.


Yup. The bit from the Emperor that I really dislike is the last movement, which strikes me as bombastic and noisy. I greatly prefer the fourth, and (probably slightly weirdly) no. 2 (which was actually written before no. 1, if memory serves).

To the topic of the thread: Almost all Brahms' orchestral works could have used slightly more inventive endings than Dominant! Dominant! Toniiiiic! It is especially irritating in the violin concerto, where he almost seems to just decide "oh, what the heck, let's just end it here, in the usual manner."

As far as that is concerned, he could have learned a thing or two from Dvorak.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

violadude said:


> I think Beethoven's Emperor Concerto could have been a lot better and maybe his best piano concerto if it had been less long winded and repetitive. As it stands, the 4th is my favorite one by far.


He should cut the first movement with 5 minutes less.. It's 20 minutes, being 15 minutes , it would be more compact.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

The 1st movement of Shostakovich's Piano Concerto No. 2 in F has comic or light sounding themes and motifs that are nicely run through the grinder, but remain mostly light throughout. Then, a little over 4:00 minutes into it (especially at 4:17 in the link) the orchestra plays in unison and the themes are miraculously transformed into an uplifting majestic wonder. Strangely he plunges right back into light silly mode after that, but I'm thinking it should have just ended on the majestic note. That transformation is so amazing, nothing more needs saying. In fact the entire remainder of the concerto seems anticlimactic after that moment. If only that moment had been reserved for the ending . . .


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Andreas said:


> The ending of Scriabin's Vers la flamme is a bit disappointing, but I understand Scriabin had to rush to finish it.


How is it disappointing? I love it! Gives me goosebumps everytime (with the right performer).


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Far be it for me to say, but all my life have had a nagging doubt about the 4th mov. of Beethoven's 9th.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

The White Album


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Alydon said:


> Far be it for me to say, but all my life have had a nagging doubt about the 4th mov. of Beethoven's 9th.


Boy, that's a lonely opinion to have. But I know me and Art Rock both think this too.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Tchaikovsky's _Manfred_ Symphony. If only he had thought twice about the last seven minutes or so...the rest of the symphony is some of the best music I've heard from him. It's a pity he had to run out of good ideas toward the end. It would have been one of the greatest pieces of music ever written.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

violadude said:


> Boy, that's a lonely opinion to have. But I know me and Art Rock both think this too.


Some would say a strange opinion, but reading posts on site many have doubts on the last mov. of this great symphony.


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

Vesteralen said:


> The White Album


......Is the best album ever made by any pop group living or dead and any addition or subtraction would be to it's detriment.

Was that what you were going to say?


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Beethoven's 9th ...............


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

violadude said:


> Boy, that's a lonely opinion to have. But I know me and Art Rock both think this too.


Actually you can add me to the list. As some wit said of Wagner, it has wonderful moments but awful quarters of an hour, and this seems to apply to the last movement of B's ninth as well. The thing just seems a bit fragmentary and over-wrought, if you ask me. But then, of late I have increasingly begun experiencing most of Beethoven post-first period works as over the top and self-indulgent, so I suppose I am biased.

Still, from this biased and subjective perspective, the first two movements of the symphony are thrilling, but after that the thing seems to run out of steam.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Alydon said:


> Some would say a strange opinion, but reading posts on site many have doubts on the last mov. of this great symphony.


As Beethoven said, "Well, guess that last movement wasn't such a hot idea, huh? I'll write a new one, no worries, just gotta get these $^&^%$ quartets out of the way first..." The rest is history.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> As Beethoven said, "Well, guess that last movement wasn't such a hot idea, huh? I'll write a new one, no worries, just gotta get these $^&^%$ quartets out of the way first..." The rest is history.


Actually, when they told him that movement doesn't work he said "What? I don't hear anything wrong with it!" :devil:


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Alydon said:


> Far be it for me to say, but all my life have had a nagging doubt about the 4th mov. of Beethoven's 9th.


There are parts from it I love and parts that I sometimes have to skip through. One poster on a different site described the piece perfectly as getting a hug from a beloved uncle whom you've missed dearly, but he hasn't shaved in some time and smells kind of funny. Sort of a bittersweet experience.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

trazom said:


> There are parts from it I love and parts that I sometimes have to skip through. One poster on a different site described the piece perfectly as getting a hug from a beloved uncle whom you've missed dearly, but he hasn't shaved in some time and smells kind of funny. Sort of a bittersweet experience.


Actually I think that was me...but I had read something like that somewhere else. Still, there's truth in it.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Actually I think that was me...but I had read something like that somewhere else. Still, there's truth in it.


I read it on GMG maybe 1-3 years ago, if you posted it there..


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

trazom said:


> I read it on GMG maybe 1-3 years ago, if you posted it there..


Timing's about right, but it was another forum we're not allowed to mention. Of course it could be a case of coincidental inspiration! :lol:


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

KenOC said:


> As Beethoven said, "Well, guess that last movement wasn't such a hot idea, huh? I'll write a new one, no worries, just gotta get these $^&^%$ quartets out of the way first..." The rest is history.


I believe LVB was being paid a lot of money for this symphony so he thought he'd jazz up the last mov. as well.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

LOL. The entire thread reminds me of this:





ADD:
And the fantasy is more really about acting in the same capacity as is Wolferl in this particular scene (from the same film):


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2013)

Either this thread hasn't attracted much attention, or no-one can think of much that needs 'just a bit more tinkering': it's a pretty shallow list so far, with one of the usual suspects (a symphony which I now enjoy in all 4 parts) and a non-classical classic.

I don't what counts as tinkering, but I wouldn't have minded some Satie and some Debussy to have been a little longer; but then would the perfectly formed Girl with Flaxen Hair be ruined by additional variation?

[edit]How about the 9th sung in English? Then I wouldn't have to sing along in imperfect German. I know, someone already did that, didn't they?


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Wagner said of the first movement of the 9th that it was a symphony in itself. Beethoven's giganticism perhaps got the better of him here as it may have in some (not all) other pieces. And this attempt to make things as big and long as possible was arguably not the best influence on late Romantic music. So I understand the criticism of the last movement but with how Beethoven structured the work with all movement equally gigantic that was what he wanted. I like the first two movements the most, the first movement the best, the last least.

Looking at the opposite angle a piece I wish Beethoven hadn't tinkered with was Op130, I think the original Grosse Fugue finale worked perfectly well. On the other hand I haven't been convinced as yet by the finale to the Hammerklavier, just not as melodic and interesting for me.

Eine Kleine Nachtmusik has 3 movements that are jewels, but the minuet isn't as characterful for me and I wish Mozart had put some twists in to make it more memorable.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Either this thread hasn't attracted much attention, or no-one can think of much that needs 'just a bit more tinkering': it's a pretty shallow list so far, with one of the usual suspects (a symphony which I now enjoy in all 4 parts) and a non-classical classic.


It's difficult to alter something in a completed work without changing the balance in ways that would be unexpected even for the composer. I note that no one here has proposed minor changes, either. People have either said that they think something is wrong and should be changed, or that major changes should be made.

Once, I tried adding something to a piece I had written, somewhat after the fact, but I realized playing back what I had written that it didn't fit in the harmonic/melodic language of the piece at all, which was not obvious before. And this was only a few bars!


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

Although it is still a great piece, I have often thought the closing bars of Dvorak's 9th to be a bit of a damp squib.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Winterreisender said:


> Although it is still a great piece, I have often thought the closing bars of Dvorak's 9th to be a bit of a damp squib.


Oh no, I think it's smashing! The softer ending works for me, it's like a benediction...


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## IBMchicago (May 16, 2012)

I'm going to go with much of Mozart's symphonies before the 39th. I do love them, particularly the Prague, but had he taken a bit more time with some them (as he did with the final trilogy), the Haydn vs. Mozart symphony debate wouldn't even exist and the Beethoven vs. Mozart symphony debate may actually have been a wash.


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I think that Tchaikovsky's 1st Piano Concerto could have been great, but is instead structurally a bit of a mess in so far that the brilliant opening theme receives very little development. I am always waiting for it to return and am always left disappointed.

Another controversial choice would be Brahms 4, specifically the 4th movement, which, for all its careful counterpoint, I find to be a bit tuneless and not really fitting with the rest of the symphony.


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

Can't feeling that John Cage's 4'33" would have been better had it contained some music. 
On a more serious note (haha), some fairly substantial tinkering would have been necessary to turn Shoskovich's 3rd symphony into something of true merit.


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