# Would really like to get some opinions on my first orchestra piece!



## andruini

Hey guys, it's me again asking for some feedback! 
Ok, this is the first time I've attempted to write for orchestra.. It's really unusual in instrumentation and, well, I've never studied any orchestration, so I guess that shows.. But still, if any of you could spare some time and give me some comments, I'd really appreciate it..
It's a tone poem, kind of, called "Isles".. I was inspired by this boat ride I took once off the coast of Cape Town, here's a picture:









(just so you won't get any kind of "tropical" implication from "Isles".. )

Thanks in advance to anyone who replies..
(Sorry again for the crappy electronic sounds)

Islas (Isles), Op. 5


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## starry

Melodic piece - good. Not sure what the ending is aiming for, it seems quite playful and happy there. Maybe it's people coming back safely after the journey or something. But there's not much darkness in the piece it feels for the happiness at the end to be really felt perhaps. Some interesting ideas though and some transitions work ok like the one into the bells section.


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## Aramis

I like the wind (?) frazes at the beginning, before the percussion enters, but they don't stick together. You should fix that, those rhytm-only interludes sounds terrible. 

I find the whole piece nice and folky - a fine description of your trip experience.


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## andruini

Thanks! 
Re: Starry, yeah, I feel the ending (with the pizzicato strings right? and the little triplet coda?) doesn't really keep in mind the mood of the rest of the piece, and I'm working on making it sound more cohesive.. I did have in mind though people coming back from the trip, though..

Re: Aramis, Thanks for listening too! I realize about the interludes.. They can sound a bit like I'm losing momentum and are a bit unnecessary.. I'm working on those too.. And well, basically what I was aiming for was a bit of a description a) of the really rough sea (with the strings on some parts) and b) of the animals (seals, seagulls, birds) with the wind passages..

It's not in anyway a final version, and I work on it almost daily, but I wanted to get some feedback already.. Thanks a lot, guys!


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## Weston

If you don't mind just a music fan (but a complete tyro at composing) chiming in, here are a few thoughts:

There is nothing intrinsically crappy about electronic sounds. Your nervous system runs on electricity. It is what is it is and I think the listener understands this.

I have no trouble with the pizzicato at the end. I wondered if it should fade out though instead of trying to resolve? As if the island is still there, but the boat is leaving it behind. 

I also have no trouble with the percussion sections. They are not noticeable as a pause or loss of momentum to me. Actually I think a pause here and there would be good (see below). 

The sections I enjoyed the most are about 5:00 - a kind of complex texture going on there and then there are foghorn like brass blasts that evolve into a motif of their own. This seems appropriate for an island. Also the woodwind complicated rhythmic section around 9:30 or maybe a little before is very nice. I guess I still go for a baroque texture in music.

On the negative side - the piece seems slightly relentless in a Phillip Glass kind of way. A pause or rest between phrases sometimes is more what I am accustomed to hearing. I realize this could be a midi software effect that would be resolved with live players. It could also be just matter of personal taste.

Thanks for sharing.


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## andruini

Thanks a lot for your comments, Weston..
Of course I don't mind a music fan, chiming in.. 90% of the people who'll ever listen to a composer's music are that, music fans.. Thanks for the reassurance on the electronic sounds.. Still, I can't imagine what it would sound with live players.. I think it most probably would take a whole other character..
That's a good idea about the ending.. I hadn't thought of it.. Like kind of disappear in the mist.. That's actually really good, I'll be toying around with that idea..
That's funny, some people have also used the word Baroque when referring to those woodwing passages.. I wasn't really going for that, but if that's what it conveys, excellent!
I see what you mean about it being relentless.. But, (and this coming from a huge Glass fan) I think that's a bit of what I was aiming for.. The restless sea, the constant wind blowing.. I guess I need a bit more of a sense of transition, but that will come in time and with experience..
Thanks for listening, means a lot to me!


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## Mirror Image

I find that this piece lacks cohesion and the overall impact I felt from it is quite stale and lifeless. There really isn't anything in the way of dynamics happening. I think the transitions could have been much smoother too. It sounds all chopped up for lack of a better term.

I don't really get the impression of your trip with this piece at all. I would not worry about the orchestration of the piece so much right now, but I would definitely work on getting those ideas to come out in a more cohesive and dramatic way.


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## andruini

Thanks for the comments, MI.. I realize that it lacks a bit in cohesiveness (I mentioned it a few posts before).. I'm a bit puzzled about your "lifeless" comment and also about the dramatic impact.. It really doesn't sound that way to me.. Could you explain a bit more?


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## Mirror Image

andruini said:


> I'm a bit puzzled about your "lifeless" comment and also about the dramatic impact.. It really doesn't sound that way to me.. Could you explain a bit more?


Well the first problem is this is generated on computer program right?

The reason I say "lifeless" is because it lacks the dramatic contrasts that make a piece of music enjoyable for me. In other words, there isn't a balance of darkness and light. It just sounds like a one mood composition that after awhile just sounds stale and goes nowhere. The thematic material is good, but should be given more drama and texture.

Everybody feels different things no question about it, but for me, the ocean represents something that's quite unsettling and haunting, but at the same time it can give you a sense of calmness and the sound can relieve you. The ocean is a very mysterious thing for me, so it's hard to put it into words for you.


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## andruini

Ok, ok, I see what you mean now.. 
Ok, well, actually I did include many dynamic markings, and in my head it does have more of a dramatic contrast.. But oh well, there's only so much computers can do.. As I said, I suspect it'll be whole other piece played live..
I see also what you mean about the ocean, but in this piece it's not the main theme.. I was more interested in representing the rocks, the animals on them, the general mood of the day.. It's true that we all feel different things, and I guess as with all music, we all take something away from it that maybe others won't get..
Thanks again for listening, this is really helping me out, I need all the opinions I can get!


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## Tapkaara

I haven't listened to it all yet Andruini, but I think it's a very valiant effort!

I only listened to about the first 5 minutes (I'm planning on listening to the whole thing later today.) I liked your melodic ideas and the part where the percussion comes in is quite exciting. I do agree that it does sound somewhat "choppy," but I haven't much of a problem with that. If that's the effect you were going for, why apologize for it or make changes? Perhaps the slight amount of aural discomfort is a perfectly legitimate effect that "says" something about what you saw or felt on your ocean trip.

The woodwind riffs do have a "liquid" sound that reminded me of water.

So far, it sounds like a contented work, so I imagine you were in a state of satisfied happiness during this excursion. MI said it lacked a contrast of light and dark. Again, I've not listened to all of it yet, but perhaps there was more light than dark anyway that you wanted to convey.

Also, what program are you using to write/play this?

Perhaps I will have more critical things to say once I have heard the whole thing, but I was pleasantly surprised so far. And honestly, I think it is more immediately captivating and accessible than some of the other samples that our home grown composers have posted on this forum.

My hat's off to you!


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## andruini

Wow! Thanks!
I used the notation program Sibelius.. It has its own Sound Library, which is more than decent if I say so myself..
I'm trying to listen positively to critique, and see what I can get from it.. I'd say though I'm pretty much happy with the piece as it is, even though I do think some transitions need tweaking.. 
I look forward to your comments after you hear it all!


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## Tapkaara

I would like to buy Sibelius so I can go forth with my own composing. Which version of Sibelius do you have and how much is it?


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## andruini

I have Sibelius 5 Pro, which cost me maybe like 600 bucks.. I know it's a lot of dough, but it's a really worthwhile investment.. It's really an incredible program.. I'm thinking about updating to Sibelius 6 which just came out though.. When you have one version the upgrade is like 100 bucks, which I'm willing to pay for the incredible features they keep adding..
Bottom line is, if you're serious about composing, and will be for a long time, there's no better alternative, in my opinion..


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## Tapkaara

Yeah, I thought you'd say about $600. It'll be a while before I get it, but one day I plan on it.


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## starry

I said myself maybe there could have been a darker or more introspective part of the piece to make it more of a 'voyage' for the listener. But I suppose it could be argued that that is personal preference and maybe you wanted a piece that was quite sunny and contented all the way through.


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## Mirror Image

Believe it or not, I don't have much use for computer notation software. I prefer writing with my hands on notation paper. This, for me, is where all the fun and enjoyment comes when writing a piece. When I finish a composition and it meets my own expectations, then I use a scanner and scan it into my computer, then I can make copies of it and back it up on a flash drive.

It takes me a very long time to compose a piece of music. I'm a very slow worker, but I prefer it this way and I can go at my own pace.


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## Tapkaara

Paper works too, but the nice thing about Sibelius is you can hear what it sounds like in real time and tweek the orchestration as you go, etc. Mkaes the process easier and more fun. At least that's how I feel.


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## Mirror Image

Tapkaara said:


> Paper works too, but the nice thing about Sibelius is you can hear what it sounds like in real time and tweek the orchestration as you go, etc. Mkaes the process easier and more fun. At least that's how I feel.


I prefer to do things the old fashioned way, but that's just me.


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## andruini

If I was proficient at the piano and I had the supplies, I would definitely go pen and paper.. But that's just not a viable option for me.. And there's also what Tapkaara said.. It really makes it much easier..


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## Mirror Image

andruini said:


> If I was proficient at the piano and I had the supplies, I would definitely go pen and paper.. But that's just not a viable option for me.. And there's also what Tapkaara said.. It really makes it much easier..


Well you must do what's easier for you. Everybody has their own methods of course.


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## Rasa

The problem with composing using sibelius is that the virtual instruments utterly fail rendering harmonies, because they lake real overtones. It warps your harmonic/ melodic ear.


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## Tapkaara

Rasa said:


> The problem with composing using sibelius is that the virtual instruments utterly fail rendering harmonies, because they lake real overtones. It warps your harmonic/ melodic ear.


Well, short of having a full orchestra at your disposal every time you tweak something, Sibelius probably comes in really handy, imperfect as it is.


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## chillowack

I think this is an excellent first effort. If you can set aside the obvious limitation of the computerized sounds, and imagine those sounds being produced by a real orchestra, then I would say this would be a very interesting piece indeed, and I would enjoy listening to it. There's color, and life, and animation, and it's always changing, and the changes are intriguing and fun to listen to. I can visualize an ocean journey happening. And I like the pizzicato strings at the end!

It's true (as Mirror Image pointed out) that there are no dynamics in this version, but I don't think that renders the piece stale and lifeless at all, I think you just need to be able to get beyond the electronic limitations and "hear" real instruments. (Perhaps a composer of Mirror Image's level would have a better opinion of the piece from reading the score, rather than hearing the limited electronic version of the piece.)

Very creative piece! Well done, especially for a first composition.


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## andruini

Wow, thanks for the comments! I've actually thought about how it would sound like with real instruments, because obviously some instruments (especially brass ones like the horns) could produce different tones that are more akin to what I was looking for..
I really appreciate you taking the time to listen, chillowack!


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## maestro267

Nice piece you got going here. Keep it up!


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## chillowack

My pleasure, andruini! I look forward to your next offering.


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## jcsd

Hi andruini, I liked some of it, some of it I wasn;t so keen on though I think that may've just been the sound set you've used.

These days it's possible to do amazing things with the right sound sets. You can get a sound that most people will struggle to tell from the real thing. What I've heard is the best is EWQL:SO which is mightily expensive. From what I understand someone has done a plugin-in for this and Sibelius

With Sibelius I got the demo version and I love the the fact that you write sheet music and it just plays it, but I found the sound that comes out is stuff that I could've easily have done 9 or 8 years ago on the £30 midi sequencer program I had then. That said I only spent a day or two playing with it and not the full version either and 'm sure plug-ins could vastly improve the sound.

Personally I use FL studio, though it's designed for writting and sequencing short loops, it's what I've had for years now and I'm used to it. Plus the full edition is one of the chepeast piecea of 'professional' music software. Not entirely sure I'd recommend it to other users seeking to write the kind of stuff you have though.


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## andruini

Hey, thanks for the feedback..
I actually used FL a while back.. But I was making electronic music back then heh.. 
I don't know, I think the Sibelius sound sets are fine for me.. I don't really want to invest thousands of dollars on sounds and samples.. I mean, ultimately, what I aim for is actual performances, not creating high quality MP3's.. 
Thanks again for listening!


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## jcsd

andruini said:


> Hey, thanks for the feedback..
> I actually used FL a while back.. But I was making electronic music back then heh..
> I don't know, I think the Sibelius sound sets are fine for me.. I don't really want to invest thousands of dollars on sounds and samples.. I mean, ultimately, what I aim for is actual performances, not creating high quality MP3's..
> Thanks again for listening!


I see what you mean. I would love to have EWQL Symphonic Orchetra platinium edition but $1000 seems a bit extravagant, though I still think it might be worth looking at other sound sets, there are free user created ones out there.

I think I'm just lazy, I don't need perfect orchestral sounds, but I like to have a better idea of how it would sound than can be provided by your average midi player. With real instruments there's subtle harmonics going on and that can be recreated to some extent by a computer.


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## SenorTearduct

Finale is wayy better in my prefrence...


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## SenorTearduct

btw.. what other than this orcherstra piece have you done thus far?


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## andruini

SenorTearduct said:


> Finale is wayy better in my prefrence...


I haven't used Finale, but I've heard great things about it as well..



SenorTearduct said:


> btw.. what other than this orcherstra piece have you done thus far?


Here is another piece I posted here for String Orchestra that I would also love to get more opinions on.. Apart from that, I've composed a set of short pieces for piano, a set of three movements for woodwind ensemble and I actually just finished a String Quartet yesterday.
I'm starting composition next week with Arturo Márquez, so I'm really excited to improve.


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## SenorTearduct

I like that one... The changes are well implimented.. and the flow is good. The only thing i would is suggest is to have a few lapses of counterpoint when the two violins are in unison. Like where they are in unison then maybe one drops to the third below then it drops to maybe a diffrent melody then reconnects with the violin again... Just my opinion. Can I get your opinion on a work ive done? Do you like the Organ?


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## SenorTearduct

if your interested its the piece on the thread under this same catagory... it has multimedia in the title


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## SenorTearduct

It's called "Finite Terra"


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## andruini

Oh sorry I didn't see your reply.. Thanks for the comment about the other piece.. I'll take into account the thing about the violins 
I'll check out your piece right now.


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## SenorTearduct

haha thanks


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