# Your opinion on this font



## Guseyn (3 mo ago)

How do you find this music font?


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

I prefer fonts that look printed and not handwritten. Something like this (quick mockup in Lilypond, correcting the errors in the musical example you gave):








The handwritten fonts are OK for jazz but I think that the style I use is clearer to read and less fussy-looking. (I've modeled my font selection here loosely on G. Henle Verlag's editions, which may give you an idea of the kind of engraving I personally prefer.) 

A couple of other things: the slurs in your example look curvier than usual, taking up more space than necessary. There is an awfully wide space between the right hand and left hand; in my example, it's probably too tight, but yours is getting on the wide side (though still tolerable, as it gives you extra space to write notes in pencil on the score). The slurs in the left hand, measure 2 are oddly shaped, like Bézier curves with weirdly chosen control points; the curvature should be more even if possible. The tempo marking "Presto con fuoco" should be larger, because it is kind of hidden in your example. I think you have matched the font of the _music_ well with the font of the _text_; again, my preferences are different from yours here but at least you are consistent in your style. Other than that, spacing and clarity are pretty good in your example, and I don't think anyone would have trouble reading it, which is the most important thing.

Welcome to the forum. I saw your introductory post and I know that your project is related to music engraving. I'm somewhat familiar with Lilypond and I've used it for years, so it's what I'm comfortable with. I wish you success and hope my feedback is constructive and helpful.


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## SoloYH (8 mo ago)

To be honest, I really like it, I find it very modern and very cute. Almost like a whimsical work. I know nothing about typography, though.

I would definitely print my sheet music off like that if I could and frame it.


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## Guseyn (3 mo ago)

Monsalvat said:


> I prefer fonts that look printed and not handwritten. Something like this (quick mockup in Lilypond, correcting the errors in the musical example you gave):
> View attachment 176453
> 
> The handwritten fonts are OK for jazz but I think that the style I use is clearer to read and less fussy-looking. (I've modeled my font selection here loosely on G. Henle Verlag's editions, which may give you an idea of the kind of engraving I personally prefer.)
> ...


Thanks for reply and the example, I will try consider improvements I can apply.
I am planning to add more fonts in the future.


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## Guseyn (3 mo ago)

SoloYH said:


> To be honest, I really like it, I find it very modern and very cute. Almost like a whimsical work. I know nothing about typography, though.
> 
> I would definitely print my sheet music off like that if I could and frame it.


Thanks 😊


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The font? Hard to tell because everything about the way the music is copied and laid out is so distractingly awful. The font is ugly and it doesn't work at all for dynamics; That forte mark is an undecipherable squiggle. There are reasons different fonts are used for different functions in a score. A primary one is that it distinguishes one function from another (dynamics versus expression marks, etc.), adding greatly to readability. In the font used above, a lower case, bold capital eff might work if one is writing _*feroce*_, because it is understood in the context of a whole word, but as an isolated abbreviation for forte it is almost illegible.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Monsalvat said:


> I prefer fonts that look printed and not handwritten. Something like this (quick mockup in Lilypond, correcting the errors in the musical example you gave):
> View attachment 176453


As a pianist for several decades, I find that THIS font for the actual music (the notes, etc.) is far more 'readable' than that illustrated in the OP. 

For most printed music nowadays I find I need 'readers' to properly see the music, yet I can pull out 50-year-old scores and NOT need reading glasses.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)




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## prlj (10 mo ago)

The typography for the title, composer, etc, looks very amateurish. 

The spacing for the notes is odd. The triplets should be evenly spaced, I'm not sure why the gap between the 2nd and 3rd chords.

The dynamic mark is too easily overlooked. (I didn't even notice that it was there until it was pointed out in another post.)

Why no pedal release marking?

I believe the fermata belongs over the bar line, not over the final chord of the first measure. That changes the musical interpretation.

You have the wrong key signature. It should be in Db, not F.

On the plus side, I am a huge fan of the black on beige layout. Far preferable to black on white.


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## Guseyn (3 mo ago)

prlj said:


> The typography for the title, composer, etc, looks very amateurish.
> 
> The spacing for the notes is odd. The triplets should be evenly spaced, I'm not sure why the gap between the 2nd and 3rd chords.
> 
> ...


I was just recreating some example, apparently it has some errors, will redo it
About the space between 2nd and 3rd chord, my program works in a way, that it reserves space for note keys. This guarantees that space between chords are consistent (keys are considered as part of a chord)
At least I prefer this look over uneven spacing between previous chord and keys for the current chord.
Anyway, thank you for the feedback. Lots of stuff to consider.


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## prlj (10 mo ago)

Guseyn said:


> About the space between 2nd and 3rd chord, my program works in a way, that it reserves space for note keys. This guarantees that space between chords are consistent (keys are considered as part of a chord)


I'm not exactly sure what this means. The program should be subservient to the music, and it appears that the opposite is the case here. I would see that gap as an implication of a rhythmic change.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

prlj said:


> I'm not exactly sure what this means. The program should be subservient to the music, and it appears that the opposite is the case here. I would see that gap as an implication of a rhythmic change.


He means more space is given to notes and chords in which _accidentals_ are present.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

prlj said:


> I'm not exactly sure what this means. The program should be subservient to the music, and it appears that the opposite is the case here. I would see that gap as an implication of a rhythmic change.


I think he means that this program creates extra space for the accidental in the third chord to prevent collisions. Which could be a good thing if the notes were squished very close (which isn't true here anyway), except that it creates too much space, as you pointed out. The same effect is present in the sixteenth notes in the right hand.

Sounds like the program calculates how much space a chord requires. If the chord has accidentals, they are bundled in with the chord and this leads to the extra space you see.


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## Guseyn (3 mo ago)

prlj said:


> I'm not exactly sure what this means. The program should be subservient to the music, and it appears that the opposite is the case here. I would see that gap as an implication of a rhythmic change.





Monsalvat said:


> I think he means that this program creates extra space for the accidental in the third chord to prevent collisions. Which could be a good thing if the notes were squished very close (which isn't true here anyway), except that it creates too much space, as you pointed out. The same effect is present in the sixteenth notes in the right hand.
> 
> Sounds like the program calculates how much space a chord requires. If the chord has accidentals, they are bundled in with the chord and this leads to the extra space you see.


That’s right, thanks for the feedback. I knew that it would cause some confusion, I will improve algorithm for such cases.


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## Chat Noir (4 mo ago)

Obviously I'm also more familiar with what has now become the printed norm for most music after seeing it over and over again, though in the past you could get printed scores that differed quite a a bit visually. With varying typefaces and layouts. What I liked best were the facsimile reproductions of nicely laid-out musical handwriting. I quite like those reproductions of Erik Satie's manuscripts and I'd love that as a style for engraving software.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I never forgot this one


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## Guseyn (3 mo ago)

Guseyn said:


> That’s right, thanks for the feedback. I knew that it would cause some confusion, I will improve algorithm for such cases.


Thanks again for the feedback. I fixed most of the problems in the music and visually. And hopefully it looks much better


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

^^The gap between the staves is far too large and the forte dynamic needs to be centralised between the staves, as does the hairpin. Dynamics and crescendo/decrescendo markings should always be at the same level as they relate to one another. It'd also be a good idea to have consistency with the triplet markings and maybe even add brackets. 
Checking my copy (Peters) against this and I can see that pedalling should be indicated in the first bar too. Also the pedal off markings in the 2nd bar should be indicated just before the quaver rests, not on them.
I can't say I like the font much but it is definitely clear and agree with @prlj that the beige manuscript is great. I use that colour when working in Sibelius as it is much easier on the eyes. Do you have other fonts?


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Chat Noir said:


> Obviously I'm also more familiar with what has now become the printed norm for most music after seeing it over and over again, though in the past you could get printed scores that differed quite a a bit visually. With varying typefaces and layouts. What I liked best were the facsimile reproductions of nicely laid-out musical handwriting. I quite like those reproductions of Erik Satie's manuscripts and I'd love that as a style for engraving software.


I don't think I've ever seen the 2 dots confirming the treble clefs pitch designation as G before.


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## Guseyn (3 mo ago)

mikeh375 said:


> ^^The gap between the staves is far too large and the forte dynamic needs to be centralised between the staves, as does the hairpin. It'd be a good idea to be consistent with the triplet markings too and maybe even add brackets.


Thanks, I forgot about the gap. Luckily, everything is easy to edit. Yeah, I also think brackets here make a lot of sense


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## Guseyn (3 mo ago)

mikeh375 said:


> ^^The gap between the staves is far too large and the forte dynamic needs to be centralised between the staves, as does the hairpin. Dynamics and crescendo/decrescendo markings should always be at the same level as they relate to one another. It'd also be a good idea to have consistency with the triplet markings and maybe even add brackets. The music should be clear to a player at first sight.


Here is the version with brackets


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

yep, I edited in a few more comments that you may find useful. I still think you need to tighten the space between staves and align the dynamics with the hairpin. If the Forte marking clashes with the first beat, all you need to do is move it slightly to the left.


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## Guseyn (3 mo ago)

mikeh375 said:


> yep, I edited in a few more comments that you may find useful. I still think you need to tighten the space between staves and align the dynamics with the hairpin. If the Forte marking clashes with the first beat, all you need to do is move it slightly to the left.


Thanks, I reattached dynamic mark (it's in italic style) and it's centralized by stem (not note head) for chords with stems directed up.
And I also lowered hairpin. Although I think that dynamic letters and hairpin are in different measures and it's okay if they
are not aligned. At least, it's my experience and what I've seen in many scores.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Now it's looking better! I think the tempo indication should be larger and the shape of the slurs may still need to be tweaked but the layout is already looking better. I agree it looks better with brackets, though the edition on IMSLP didn't have brackets. The font itself is partially a matter of personal taste I think, and partially a practical matter of legibility. Vertical alignment of dynamic indications becomes really important if the two staves are doing different things (_*p*_ in the left hand but *f* in the right hand, for instance) but less important in this two-bar excerpt.


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## Guseyn (3 mo ago)

Monsalvat said:


> Now it's looking better! I think the tempo indication should be larger and the shape of the slurs may still need to be tweaked but the layout is already looking better. I agree it looks better with brackets, though the edition on IMSLP didn't have brackets. The font itself is partially a matter of personal taste I think, and partially a practical matter of legibility. Vertical alignment of dynamic indications becomes really important if the two staves are doing different things (_*p*_ in the left hand but *f* in the right hand, for instance) but less important in this two-bar excerpt.


Slurs are extremely difficult to draw(automatically) for all possible cases. Because right now, all user need to do is just to mention two sound units to connect. Also user can control "roundness" of a slur. In Lillypond(for example) user also must declare coordinates of central points, which is not easy for average musician.
In most cases, slurs look much better in Unison than in any other tool. This is rare case where we have quite big interval between two sound units in a row. I can admit that the shape of slurs in left hand in second measure are quite unusual, but on the other hand I like how slur indicates big gap between notes visually.
Anyway, thank you for the feedback.
I've been working on this really long time, and always pushed boundaries, so I believe that the tool will gradually improve(thanks to all the feedback I got here).


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Guseyn said:


> Slurs are extremely difficult to draw(automatically) for all possible cases. Because right now, all user need to do is just to mention two sound units to connect. Also user can control "roundness" of a slur. In Lillypond(for example) user also must declare coordinates of central points, which is not easy for average musician.
> In most cases, slurs look much better in Unison than in any other tool. This is rare case where we have quite big interval between two sound units in a row. I can admit that the shape of slurs in left hand in second measure are quite unusual, but on the other hand I like how slur indicates big gap between notes visually.
> Anyway, thank you for the feedback.
> I've been working on this really long time, and always pushed boundaries, so I believe that the tool will gradually improve(thanks to all the feedback I got here).


The user usually doesn't have to declare anything about a slur other than the start and endpoints in Lilypond.

This code:

```
\version "2.22.2"
\score {
  \new Staff { \relative c' {
      \clef treble \time 4/4 \key bes \major
      bes4( c d ees) f( g a bes) \bar "||"
}}}
```
gives me this output:








and I didn't have to do anything special to tell the slurs which way to go or how curvy to be; just which notes are the endpoints. Of course the user can tinker with the slur shape since they are just Bézier curves and sometimes the program can't make the right shape, but it isn't necessary most of the time.

And here's how Lilypond deals with larger jumps:








Not great! The shape is nice to look at, but it doesn't connect properly. Whereas yours _does_ connect properly, but it makes an awkward shape.

This isn't a big enough problem that I would have trouble reading your example, and one could argue that it just increases the amount of whitespace for a performer to annotate the score, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But since Lilypond has implemented a pretty good way of getting the slurs to work, I wonder if it is possible/legal/feasible/acceptible to see how they did it. I think their source code is freely available but I'm not a lawyer and don't know the details on what is acceptible and what isn't; nor am I developer so I don't know if it would even work with your project. I think I understand what you mean about the slurs being optimized for notes that are close together (which usually makes sense for musical phrases) and this being a bit of an unusual edge case.

Anyway, just a suggestion. I'm happy to provide feedback, and I'm glad you understand that I mean all of this constructively and in a helpful way. I'm sure your program will improve over time and I do think the other suggestions in this thread have already improved some of the layout. Best of luck!


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## Guseyn (3 mo ago)

Monsalvat said:


> The user usually doesn't have to declare anything about a slur other than the start and endpoints in Lilypond.
> 
> This code:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the example. I can show you how you can achieve the same music phrase in Unison:










and it will render following:









Of course my example looks more verbose, but at the same time, if you would give any person who does not have experience in any of these tool, then I bet my example has bigger chances to be understood.

Second example does not look good for me








Slur tries to connect notes at all costs.
I will definitely think on how fix this. I guess, it's possible to fix like below, but I am not sure whether it's ok to draw slurs above beams. To me it's nothing criminal in doing that


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## Chat Noir (4 mo ago)

mikeh375 said:


> I don't think I've ever seen the 2 dots confirming the treble clefs pitch designation as G before.


One of Satie's eccentric touches no doubt. There are several liberties in that score, but it makes it a little work of art.


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## Chat Noir (4 mo ago)

Guseyn said:


> Slurs are extremely difficult to draw(automatically) for all possible cases. Because right now, all user need to do is just to mention two sound units to connect.


I have no issue with the slurs as you have them now in the main example. I don't think they have to conform to another standard elsewhere. Printed/engraved music is just like printed text versus handwriting. Sometimes it is hightly formalised and regular, sometimes it leans back towards handwriting styles. I can say that the slurs in my own score writing (I still use large score paper and a pencil for sketches) are irregular, being either very arched or flatter over longer groupings.


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