# Did Chopin like Beethoven's music or not?



## Dustin

I've come across lots of conflicting information about whether or not Chopin liked Beethoven's music. I read a quote earlier in which he praised Hummel, Bach and Beethoven as being the great examples to strive for. Also, I know he admired Beethoven's 12th Piano Sonata, Op 26. But then I've also read in several other places that he was not a fan of Beethoven other than the 12th sonata. 

So anyone know which it is?


----------



## KenOC

Chopin, in general, was not sympatico with Beethoven's music. Well, some aren't of course. I'm sure he understood its greatness regardless. He wrote once that Beethoven's music, on some occasions, "abandoned eternal principles." Whether this was a passing comment or an abiding opinion I certainly don't know.

He was known to assign the Op. 26 sonata to his students for study, but I don't know of any others.


----------



## ArtMusic

Chopin must have at last admired Beethoven's music. Whether he liked it or not, that's for himself to decide. I loved Chopin's music.


----------



## Mandryka

ArtMusic said:


> Chopin must have at last admired Beethoven's music.


Why?

Why why why why


----------



## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> "abandoned eternal principles."


Do we know what these eternal principles are?


----------



## Mandryka

Dustin said:


> I read a quote earlier in which he praised Hummel, Bach and Beethoven as being the great examples to strive for.


Can you provide the quote?


----------



## KenOC

Mandryka said:


> Do we know what these eternal principles are?


I read up on this a year or so ago. From memory, it was quoted in Delacroix's diary. And no, he wasn't specific. Checking just now, there's a discussion here:

http://www.gyrix.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-3013.html


----------



## Dustin

I really wish I could. When I posted this, I searched for about 15 minutes but couldn't remember where I read it but it wasn't Yahoo answers or anything lacking reputation like that lol. If I can come up with it, I'll post it here.


----------



## Dustin

Here's an excerpt from Frederick Niecks Chopin biography that talks a little about this.

https://books.google.com/books?id=2...#v=onepage&q=chopin admired beethoven&f=false


----------



## KenOC

Just found an earlier thread on this very topic in another forum, but I'm unsure if I'm allowed to post the reference. Mods, comment please!


----------



## Mandryka

Here's a translation of a letter where Chopin says he likes Beethoven op 135, interestingly a quartet which people sometimes say is a return to classicism. The quote is often reported as being about a trio - maybe someone has the letter in Polish.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...=onepage&q=chopin trio snap beethoven&f=false


----------



## Aramis

Supporting myself with a source not avaiable in English: the first Beethoven's work he commented upon (in 1829 letter), is op. 97, B major trio, which he admired and referred to as "great". A man called Wilhelm Lenz claimed he received piano score of Fidelio from Chopin with following advice to "study this masterpiece". In his repertoire, he had sonatas op. 26, The Moonlight and Appassionata and, according to Alkan, performed the piano reductions of the symphonies. In 1842 letter, he names three "great authors, masters for us all" and these are Mozart, Beethoven and Hummel.

Also, they became good mates in afterlife:


----------



## Mandryka

Aramis said:


> Supporting myself with a source not avaiable in English: the first Beethoven's work he commented upon (in 1829 letter), is op. 97, B major trio, which he admired and referred to as "great". A man called Wilhelm Lenz claimed he received piano score of Fidelio from Chopin with following advice to "study this masterpiece". In his repertoire, he had sonatas op. 26, The Moonlight and Appassionata and, according to Alkan, performed the piano reductions of the symphonies. In 1842 letter, he names three "great authors, masters for us all" and these are Mozart, Beethoven and Hummel.
> 
> Also, they became good mates in afterlife:


Chopin was 19 when he wrote that letter about the trio, when he was writing the etudes. I must say I'm not surprised that he liked op 97, the style seems to fit quite well with the etudes, it least that's my un-thoughtthrough impression.


----------



## Lucifer Saudade

I don't know about liking it, but I hear some Beethoven in Chopin's music. Check out the 32 sonata at 2:00 and the etude 'revolutionary' at 0:10 - Chopin's "stormy" pieces seem to use Beethoven's techniques.

I read he often played his Appassionata.

Also here's some articles you can read:
http://www.carolinalive.org/compone...s-favorite-beethoven-piano-sonata-no-12-op-26
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~sushilsu/chopin.html

Also read this excerpt from this book at page 224, 
https://books.google.co.il/books?id...v=onepage&q=did chopin like beethoven&f=false

It's often mentioned that Beethoven's aesthetic disagreed with Chopin, who is said to be irritated at Romantic music in general.


----------



## Ukko

Is it possible that Chopin's personality encouraged dislikes over likes?

He would have a problem with TC's software then, eh?


----------



## Mahlerian

KenOC said:


> Just found an earlier thread on this very topic in another forum, but I'm unsure if I'm allowed to post the reference. Mods, comment please!


Sorry, no links or references to other forums. If you just want to quote the discussion, that should be fine.


----------



## isorhythm

Charles Rosen, who generally does not pull punches, called Chopin's "eternal principles" comment "Philistine" and the result of his coming from a "provincial musical culture."

Sometimes people are just wrong.


----------



## Mandryka

isorhythm said:


> Charles Rosen, who generally does not pull punches, called Chopin's "eternal principles" comment "Philistine" and the result of his coming from a "provincial musical culture."
> 
> Sometimes people are just wrong.


But does he say what these philistine and provincial principles are?


----------



## Mandryka

Mahlerian said:


> Sorry, no links or references to other forums. If you just want to quote the discussion, that should be fine.


Why not?

Hxjbwjxuq


----------



## Bulldog

Mahlerian said:


> Sorry, no links or references to other forums. If you just want to quote the discussion, that should be fine.


Sounds like a good policy to me. Generally, it's a dumb move to give your competitors exposure.


----------



## isorhythm

No, this was just a footnote in _The Classical Style_.


----------



## Dim7

He liked it, but only ironically.


----------



## Morimur

Dim7 said:


> He liked it, but only ironically.


You mean Chopin was a dirty hipster? No way.


----------



## Dim7

Morimur said:


> You mean Chopin was a dirty hipster? No way.


Yes, but ironically.


----------



## Ocean Elf

I find this especially interesting since I hear Beethoven influences in some of Chopin's music. At the end of the Ballade in G Minor during the really fast 24 or 44 meter section, there's a part where the chord progression sounds quite a lot like a little motif in the third movement of appassionata. They are in different keys, of course, but where Beethoven's starts on a G flat major and goes to F minor, Chopin's moves from A flat major to G minor. I'd have to put together a videoo of clips to illustrate what I mean because I'm not sure this is stated all that clearly.

There are Beethoven's 32 variations in C minor, as well as this really neat second movement of his E Flat sonata 13.27. The second movement is a tarantella-like but not so fast and frantic, and is in C minor. Both these works have this great chromatic harmony scheme going on where C minor moves through to G and then F and eventually back to C, creating an irresistible almost haunting effect IMO.

I hear this in Chopin's Prelude 20, second half, which repeats, his Etude 10.12, as well as Etude 25.12. Each of these pieces treats this scheme differently, but it's there.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Aramis said:


> In 1842 letter, he names three "great authors, masters for us all" and these are Mozart, Beethoven and Hummel.


To quote Grover, one of these is not like the others.


----------



## hpowders

The mutual admiration society appeared to have been between Chopin and Schumann. I know Schumann held Chopin in high esteem and dedicated a touching excerpt of Carnaval to Chopin. Also parts of Kreisleriana sound like they were lifted directly from Chopin's music.

"Hats off, gentlemen, a genius!" Schumann on Chopin, sealed the deal.


----------



## poconoron

According to this site, http://worldofopera.org/component/k...e-104-piano-concerto-no-2-in-f-minor-op-21-ii, Chopin cared for only 2 composers - Bach and Mozart.

He was quoted as saying: _"Mozart encompasses the entire domain of musical creation, but I've got only the keyboard in my poor head."_

And at his funeral, he had requested Mozart's Requiem to be played.

Pianist and music writer Charles Rosen declared, "Chopin was the greatest master of counterpoint since Mozart."


----------



## jdec

poconoron said:


> According to this site, http://worldofopera.org/component/k...e-104-piano-concerto-no-2-in-f-minor-op-21-ii, Chopin cared for only 2 composers - Bach and Mozart.
> 
> He was quoted as saying: _"Mozart encompasses the entire domain of musical creation, but I've got only the keyboard in my poor head."_
> 
> And at his funeral, he had requested Mozart's Requiem to be played.
> 
> Pianist and music writer Charles Rosen declared, "Chopin was the greatest master of counterpoint since Mozart."


Yes, it seems he admired Beethoven but even more Mozart and Bach, specially Mozart. On his death-bed Chopin murmured "_Play Mozart in memory of me- and I will hear you_".


----------



## Janspe

I flipped through a Chopin biography that I have in my bookshelf, by Adam Zamoyski, and it seems that he didn't think too highly of Beethoven's music - he often described it as vulgar, and mentioned Bach and Mozart as the far superior composers. Zamoyski also makes a claim that Haydn was among Chopin's favourite composers at some point.

But from a letter written to Tytus Woyciechowski (20th October 1829) he wrote, about a Beethoven trio which he had played, that "I have not heard anything quite so great for a long time - in this piece Beethoven makes fools of us all".

So I guess we can easily deduce that Chopin had a lot of mixed feelings about Beethoven; he recognized the greatness of it, but felt that it didn't fit well with his own aesthetic principles. I also think it's important to note that Chopin considered himself more of a craftsman, rather than a genius composer in the very romantic sense of the term. So maybe the kind of heroism and transcendental genius associated with Beethoven felt alien to him, who knows?


----------



## poconoron

Janspe said:


> I flipped through a Chopin biography that I have in my bookshelf, by Adam Zamoyski, and it seems that he didn't think too highly of Beethoven's music - he often described it as vulgar, and mentioned Bach and Mozart as the far superior composers. Zamoyski also makes a claim that Haydn was among Chopin's favourite composers at some point.
> 
> But from a letter written to Tytus Woyciechowski (20th October 1829) he wrote, about a Beethoven trio which he had played, that "I have not heard anything quite so great for a long time - in this piece Beethoven makes fools of us all".
> 
> So I guess we can easily deduce that Chopin had a lot of mixed feelings about Beethoven; he recognized the greatness of it, but felt that it didn't fit well with his own aesthetic principles. I also think it's important to note that Chopin considered himself more of a craftsman, rather than a genius composer in the very romantic sense of the term. So maybe the kind of heroism and transcendental genius associated with Beethoven felt alien to him, who knows?


A very good summary, I think.


----------



## Mandryka

Ocean Elf said:


> . . . as well as this really neat second movement of his E Flat sonata 13.27. The second movement is a tarantella-like but not so fast and frantic, and is in C minor. Both these works have this great chromatic harmony scheme going on where C minor moves through to G and then F and eventually back to C, creating an irresistible almost haunting effect IMO.
> 
> I hear this in Chopin's Prelude 20, second half, which repeats, his Etude 10.12, as well as Etude 25.12. Each of these pieces treats this scheme differently, but it's there.


This is interesting, ideas which are new to me, I wonder what other people think.


----------



## DavidA

Don't know about Chopin. I read yesterday that Verdi said 'Beethoven is the one we all kneel before!'


----------



## Larkenfield

"Beethoven embraced the universe with the power of his spirit . . . I do not climb so high. A long time ago I decided that my universe will be the soul and heart of man." (Chopin letter to Delphine Potocka)


----------



## poconoron

_"Don't know about Chopin. I read yesterday that Verdi said 'Beethoven is the one we all kneel before!'"_
David A

Perhaps so..............but this thread is about what *Chopin* thought of Beethoven........


----------



## Botschaft

Was Chopin an idiot? If you know this you know whether he liked Beethoven or not.


----------



## Larkenfield

Chopin was known to like and even teach his students Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 12; so he did not categorically ignore or dismiss Beethoven's genius. However, their basic temperaments and harmonic approach were widely different, which should be apparent just from hearing them.

Chopin was highly influenced by the harmonic principles that Bach used so creatively but with discipline, and in his own way he tried to be equally free yet disciplined (play his first Etude slowly and it's very Bach-like in its harmonic logic and structure). On the other hand, he felt that Beethoven broke too many of such principles -- and that's one area where he parted company, not to mention that Beethoven's frequent emotional explosiveness was at times considered vulgar and unrefined. If so, it wasn't the first time that Beethoven had been accused by others of vulgarity, including his use of the Ode to Joy theme in the last movement of his 9th Symphony.

Nevertheless, Chopin was obviously familiar with many of Beethoven's works for piano to have developed his opinion about the German master, and IMO should not be faulted for preferring other composers more, such as Bach, Mozart, Hummel and Field, whom he most likely considered more refined and less rambunctious in their overall style of composing. Surely, if nothing else, Chopin was the embodiment of refinement, and his music is full of undreamed of sensitivity and subtleties.


----------



## eugeneonagain

I know at least one thing for certain: Chopin liked Beethoven's music more than Beethoven liked Chopin's.


----------



## Bettina

eugeneonagain said:


> I know at least one thing for certain: Chopin liked Beethoven's music more than Beethoven liked Chopin's.


LOL! Very clever! Actually, though, I think you make a good point. Beethoven probably would have disliked Chopin's music, if he had lived long enough to hear it. Beethoven was not fond of that type of Romantic music. He criticized Weber and Spohr for using too many diminished sevenths and chromatic notes, which (in Beethoven's opinion) weakened the overall structure and narrative of the music.


----------



## lextune

hpowders said:


> The mutual admiration society appeared to have been between Chopin and Schumann.


I would not call it mutual.

While Schumann did indeed love Chopin, and declared him a genius early on. Chopin did not share the same admiration for Schumann's music, (or Schumann himself; by some accounts, though they only met twice), calling it imbalanced and hectic.


----------

