# Schubert's D960 is overrated. Does anyone agree?



## GMB (10 mo ago)

I love Schubert's sonatas but find his last one is over-rated as being his famous last words, or something of the sort.
I find the first movement is repetitive and boring. I have several versions,eg, Schnabel, Richter, Kempff, Brendel.
My favourite is probably Schnabel who plays it in a volatile way, more like Beethoven, and makes it more interesting emotionally.
I find D958 and D959 more varied, more dramatic and more involving.
The second movement of D960 is fine, one of Schubert's best.
The third and fourth movements are just throw-away movements to round off the sonata. There is no connection with the first two. It's a typical two movement work which could be left unfinished and would be no worse for it!
Just to confirm I love D537,664,784,840,958 and 959 particularly, as well as some of the early ones, so I am a fan of Schubert and his sonatas.
Does anyone else agree that D960 is over-rated, or can you explain why it is regarded as his masterpiece? Which recording do you reccomend?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

To some extent I agree, although I think it is a great piece and still among Schubert's top 3-5 piano sonatas (my favorite is D 959 but I am not sure if I prefer any other clearly to 960, part of this also being that beyond the last 4 sonatas there are not that many great recordings) and ~ top 10 instrumental pieces. Schubert's sonatas were all but ignored until the 1930s (Rachmaninoff was supposedly surprised to learn that Schubert had written any) and became part of the repertoire only in the 1950s-60s. The last 50 years have sometimes tried to overbalance this earlier neglect with a bit too much enthusiasm for the "infinite depth" of late Schubert. (And last works tend to have that special aura anyway (which makes little sense in the case of a composer around 30 turning out pieces at high speed), I also think Beethoven's op.111 is a bit overrated compared to the other (late) sonatas.)

Recordings with fastish first movements (and/or w/o repeat) might avoid the problem by making the entire sonata less weighty than those with a Richter-style leaden >20 min first movement. And play the more dramatic episodes in the finale appropriately E.g. Schnabel, Erdmann, Annie Fischer.

I think the problem you point out is very general and applies to almost all Schubert piano sonatas and many of his other works. The incomplete state of the b minor symphony and the D 840 sonata might also be an indication that to find adaequate scherzo and finale was a real problem for him. He best escaped it in the last quartet, string quintet and C major symphony and the best movement type to avoid it might for him been the "tarantella of death" like in D 810 and 958. 
So I wouldn't single out D 960 for a flaw (if it is considered one) shared by many other pieces.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

You are not the first around here to express that, but no, I don't agree. To each his own.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

I don't agree -- for me D960 with Richter is perhaps his greatest masterpiece (other than arguably the String Quintet)


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

I don't agree, I think it is a great piece and one of his finest


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

I have difficulties in answering questions like in the thread's title.

If I found some music disappointing or even boring, and if there were experts in that music or experienced amateur listeners (as most of us) saying, that it is a masterpiece or similar, then I looked for the reason of feeling disappointed in myself and not in the piece.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

> Does anyone else agree that D960 is over-rated? Which recording do you reccomend?


I don't think it is over-rated and my current preferred recording is by *András Schiff*.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

I like the sonata quite a bit, so no, I don't see it as overrated. And on the whole, I think it's more worthwhile to seek out and celebrate _under_rated music.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> I don't think it is over-rated and my current preferred recording is by *András Schiff*.


Schiff did a brilliant programme here with the last sonatas of the big 4 classical composers. Unfortunately the performance of the Schubert was appalling -- absurdly mannered and utterly superficial. I've seldom been so angry at a performance and I've heard God knows how many bad ones in the concert hall.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

dko22 said:


> Schiff did a brilliant programme here with the last sonatas of the big 4 classical composers. Unfortunately the performance of the Schubert was appalling -- absurdly mannered and utterly superficial. I've seldom been so angry at a performance and I've heard God knows how many bad ones in the concert hall.


The opposite of my response to the Schiff/Schubert recording I posted.


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## GMB (10 mo ago)

A very interesting post and helpful to me. I listen to music intuitively without understanding it rationally, so it helps to read posts like yours!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

GMB said:


> Just to confirm I love. . . ,840


What do you find in 840 that's lacking in 960? Thinking of the first movement.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I've heard this criticism about the last 2 movements numerous times. I kind of get it, they're underweight and jovial compared to the first 2 movements. People say the same about the finale of Brahms's 2nd piano concerto. But I don't see anything wrong with this. There's a quote about the Brahms, something along the lines of ... "After a day's hard work is done, it is time for the children to play". Something like that, can't remember who said it.

I love the Scherzo and finale to this piece; I find them quite refreshing after the gravitas of the first two movements.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Something else I love about this sonata is that it's emotionally sophisticated and involved - exploring the depths of comedy and tragedy alike - without being too draining or demanding on the listener's ear. That's not something I can say about a lot of music from this era, at least not to the same degree. As much as I love the last 5 Beethoven sonatas, I couldn't possibly listen to them when trying to get work done.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Great music, I disagree with OP as well. That rumble in the lower keys in the first movement gives me shivers. Richter's performance is not my favorite, it's too slow and curiously fragmented, feels like it's disintegrating. I know that's sacrilege.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Open Book said:


> Great music, I disagree with OP as well. That rumble in the lower keys in the first movement gives me shivers. Richter's performance is not my favorite, I know that's sacrilege.


That is one of my favorite solo piano effects in the entire Classical music period. Very imaginative and remarkable considering the time. Schubert was a dramatic composers, something which is in ample evidence with his lieder - but he also wrote his solo piano music with the same kind of concern for drama and narrative.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> The opposite of my response to the Schiff/Schubert recording I posted.


life would be very dull if we all agreed with each other  Schiff has many admirers. And I actually did generally enjoy the Mozart and Haydn performances (not the Beethoven) in the same concert. But my ever-increasing impression of this man is that he is more interested in creating a spectacle and drawing attention to himself rather than simply focussing on the music. But then that's so widespread these days that it no longer surprises.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

I think it's underrated.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Another disagree, it´s a fabulous piece of music. 
Brendel /Serkin/ Perahia are very good/

Leif Ove Andsnes and Barry Douglas are good recordings from the `younger generation'


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

I think it's very beautiful, maybe my favorite of his sonatas.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I adore this sonata played by Alfred Brendel. One of the few piano works where the music totally transcends and goes beyond ”the piano” just like The Death and The Maiden goes beyond ”the quartet”.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

It's a great piece imo, even though I care less for solo piano works than most here. Last week I selected my 12 favourite Schubert works for a blog post (Schubert is one of my top favourite composers), and although this sonata did not make it, it came very close.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

I'm in two minds about the Brendel recording. There is much to admire in it, as there usually is in Brendel's Schubert, but his refusal to play the first movement repeat (and the bridge passage leading to it) disfigures the whole thing for me. My "go to" performance is Curzon.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Animal the Drummer said:


> I'm in two minds about the Brendel recording. There is much to admire in it, as there usually is in Brendel's Schubert, but his refusal to play the first movement repeat (and the bridge passage leading to it) disfigures the whole thing for me. My "go to" performance is Curzon.


Does Curzon play the repeat? I have a performance of his, live on Orfeo, without, and I heard him play it in concert without. This is the recording I have

https://www.classical-music.com/reviews/instrumental/schumannschubert-0/

For me, Curzon's understanding of the music is reductive - he makes it sound like a piece of romantic piano music à la Beethoven, Schumann and Chopin, where recurring thematic material is transformed and presented dramatically. A more static conception is more interesting for me. Afanassiev, Lonquich and Ugorskaja for example.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Apologies. I had just been listening to Curzon (playing Mozart concertos rather than Schubert) and for no good reason typed his name in haste. What I meant to type was Kovacevich, whose version puts me in mind of that darkling, otherworldly late Schubert ethos more than any other I've heard, even Richter's glacial interpretation which - though it fascinates me - is too far OTT to be a reference recording in my book.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Apologies. I had just been listening to Curzon (playing Mozart concertos rather than Schubert) and for no good reason typed his name in haste. What I meant to type was Kovacevich, whose version puts me in mind of that darkling, otherworldly late Schubert ethos more than any other I've heard, even Richter's glacial interpretation which - though it fascinates me - is too far OTT to be a reference recording in my book.


Kovacevich's recorded versions of D 959 and D 960 are out of this world. I attended a concert in which he played Beethoven's Appassionata and Schubert's D 960. Never heard better versions.


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## OCEANE (10 mo ago)

Philidor said:


> I have difficulties in answering questions like in the thread's title.
> 
> If I found some music disappointing or even boring, and if there were experts in that music or experienced amateur listeners (as most of us) saying, that it is a masterpiece or similar, then I looked for the reason of feeling disappointed in myself and not in the piece.


I agree this approach that when I find those great pieces too hard for me to understand or even boring, I would re-consider my listening experience .......telling myself it is just the matter of time for me to understand and like it.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

OCEANE said:


> I agree this approach that when I find those great pieces too hard for me to understand or even boring, I would re-consider my listening experience .......telling myself it is just the matter of time for me to understand and like it.


I started out that way, but 35 years later I have abandoned it altogether for quite some time already. I don't think that the premise that everyone should eventually like the generally acknowledged masterpieces is right. We all have different reactions to music, and if one simply does not like a famous piece after repeated trying over time, that piece simply does not connect with this particular listener (or vice versa) and it's time to shrug and move on. There are so many pieces out there to enjoy, just let go of the ones you don't like.


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## OCEANE (10 mo ago)

Art Rock said:


> I started out that way, but 35 years later I have abandoned it altogether for quite some time already. I don't think that the premise that everyone should eventually like the generally acknowledged masterpieces is right. We all have different reactions to music, and if one simply does not like a famous piece after repeated trying over time, that piece simply does not connect with this particular listener (or vice versa) and it's time to shrug and move on. There are so many pieces out there to enjoy, just let go of the ones you don't like.


Totally agreed. What I'm trying to express is that for example, I listened to Gustav Holst's Planets for sometime but didn't really like it....and I left it. It's definitely a popular master piece and I never consider it overrated simply because I didn't enjoy it.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

OCEANE said:


> Totally agreed. What I'm trying to express is that for example, I listened to Gustav Holst's Planets for sometime but didn't really like it....and I left it. It's definitely a popular master piece and I never consider it overrated simply because I didn't enjoy it.


I think for anyone seriously interested in Classical music it is important to acquaint ourselves with the acknowledged great composers and works: "The Canon" as it is called. But there is no obligation for us to like all these works equally, or at all. For many of us the most exciting and interesting aspect of listening to Classical music is the journey of discovery of composers and works not on that list, and uncovering a hidden jewel, or just a piece of music which fills us with joy.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Animal the Drummer said:


> I'm in two minds about the Brendel recording. There is much to admire in it, as there usually is in Brendel's Schubert, but his refusal to play the first movement repeat (and the bridge passage leading to it) disfigures the whole thing for me. My "go to" performance is Curzon.


As far as I know,Curzon did not play the repeat either! I do have a fabulous performance by Brendel live for his farewell concert. Repeat or no repeat it's really good.

Other great performances n my shelf

A Fischer

L Fleisher

W Kempff

Horowitz

Perahia

Schnabel

Richter - you have to catch a live performance with maximum concentration

Kovacevich - his EMI is utterly compelling

I find this work stupendous. How anyone one can find it boring is beyond me. But each to his own


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

I understand why you are saying you find it boring. I once did. I now find it transportative, particularly the andante . Again, Brendel for me.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

marlow said:


> As far as I know,Curzon did not play the repeat either! I do have a fabulous performance by Brendel live for his farewell concert. Repeat or no repeat it's really good.
> 
> Other great performances n my shelf
> 
> ...


The one a pianist friend of mine appreciates is Yudina's, she says that the nuance is impressive.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

IMO, one of the best, if not the best recording of the D960 is Walter Klien on a 1970s Vox recording. Vox was always known as an economy label (essentially a forerunner to Naxos), but this recording can compare to or surpass those from the 'elite' labels. Vox used what were seen as journeyman artists of the time (including Brendel), but with a few exceptions they were exceptional performers.

Klien really 'understands' Schubert's greatest sonata. And the piano is beautifully recorded. Listen to 2:35 to 5:30. I've never heard another pianist bring out the joyful nature of this sequence from the Andante:


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Walter Klien was the very definition of "underrated" IMHO. I have a number of his Mozart sonatas (including positively the best performance of Mozart's Sonata in D for two pianos K448 that I've ever heard, in tandem with Alfred Brendel) and a Brahms recital on LP, and every one is top quality.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

I don't know about overrated, but I've given it some courtesy listens and it didn't do much for me. Like the OP, I found the first movement boring. But as someone else said, I generally respect consensus about these sorts of things and accept that the fault is probably more with me than with Schubert.

Those late A minor sonatas, though? D 784 and D 845? I could listen to those all day.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

I wonder why there's no love here for Horowitz's rendition on DG. It's my favorite version of D960.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

John Zito said:


> I don't know about overrated, but I've given it some courtesy listens and it didn't do much for me. Like the OP, I found the first movement boring. But as someone else said, I generally respect consensus about these sorts of things and accept that the fault is probably more with me than with Schubert.
> 
> Those late A minor sonatas, though? D 784 and D 845? I could listen to those all day.


I think these two are rather underrated (I used to underrate D 845 myself but always liked the shorter D 784 (and the beautiful D 664, maybe the first great instrumental piece Schubert wrote, admittedly I don't really care for any of the ones before that, as charming as some of them are). If above I agreed to some extent with the "overrating" of D 960, I didn't mean that it is not a great piece. I just don't think that it is an uber-piece superior to the other late Schubert sonatas as it sometimes seems to be treated (it also seems by far the most recorded Schubert sonata? Rubinstein, Horowitz, Berman, Annie Fischer apparently only recorded this sonata by Schubert). The last 6 (D 845, 850, 894, 958, 959, 960, plus the unfinished D 840 that is only lesser because of its incomplete state) seem to me of similar quality (although I don't like D 850 so much); I don't see 960 sticking out as extraordinary.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Kreisler jr said:


> I I don't see 960 sticking out as extraordinary.


One reason it is extraordinary is that it has inspired so many imaginative responses from musicians. Have you heard Tobias Koch, for example? Or Aki Takahashi? That's the mark of a great composition: a great composition inspires musicians to make great music. I don't think the other sonatas come close.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Also that first movement is so long that you can’t remember the beginning by the time you get to the end. It forces you to listen in the now. Things recur, you think you’ve heard them before, but it’s so long ago you can’t quite remember how or where or what. That’s one hell of a thing for someone to do in 1820 something! No one in the 19th century comes so close to being 20th century. If that’s not extraordinary, I’m a Dutchman.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

By such a reasoning Chopin's b flat minor would be a better sonata than the b minor because it has been played/recorded far more frequently, the best Mozart sonata would probably be K 331 and so on. There is the mystique of the last sonata that to me makes even less sense here than with op.111.

Length in itself doesn't mean much. Obviously the very length of the first movement is one reason why some people get bored or find the piece seriously out of balance... Some pianists (Richter) have played the first movement of D 894 (and some also the slow movements from Beethoven's op.106 and 111) so slowly that it lasts longer than D 960,i although with a historically reasonable tempo 960,i should probably last a bit longer and would be one of the three longest Schubert movements (the others are the first movements of the quintet and the last string quartet).


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Schubert's piano sonatas D 894 ad 959 are my favorites; D 960 comes in 3rd at best.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Kreisler jr said:


> By such a reasoning Chopin's b flat minor would be a better sonata than the b minor because it has been played/recorded far more frequently, the best Mozart sonata would probably be K 331 and so on. There is the mystique of the last sonata that to me makes even less sense here than with op.111.


Possibly but I don't think that 331 or the Chopin has attracted so many imaginative bold readings. But yes, quite possibly. What I want to stick to is the principle of my argument - the quality of a composition depends on how well it stimulates imaginative fresh music making. That's a composer's job - to stimulate musicians. It's not directly (though possibly indirectly) do with things internal to the composition - musical structures.



Kreisler jr said:


> Length in itself doesn't mean much. Obviously the very length of the first movement is one reason why some people get bored or find the piece seriously out of balance... Some pianists (Richter) have played the first movement of D 894 (and some also the slow movements from Beethoven's op.106 and op 111 and 111) so slowly that it lasts longer than D 960,i although with a historically reasonable tempo 960,i should probably last a bit longer and would be one of the three longest Schubert movements (the others are the first movements of the quintet and the last string quartet).


Not length, but the way the length is used. However, I would like some support developing this line of thought please. Of course people get bored, people get bored with everything, I get bored with op 106 for example. I don't know what historically reasonable anything has to do with it. I mean, who cares what Schubert and his mates did with the score when they performed it? They're not privileged agents just because they were the first interpreters.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I thought this was an April Fools joke as I did not know his oeuvre went up that high.

I thought you were all playing it excellently until I googled the piece.


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## OCEANE (10 mo ago)

Horowitz is such a greatest pianist and I have read many books about him.
I always enjoy his performance and style which is so unique to me and I would never compare him with other pianists. 
He is always my beloved pianist and love his Beethoven PC No. 5, Rachmaninoff, Schumann, Mozart., Scarlatti..and his Schubert D. 960.


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## Holden4th (Jul 14, 2017)

I imprinted on the Decca Curzon version and still really like it. I then went on to Brendel, Imogen Cooper and Schnabel (the pioneer). It was becoming apparent that this was a work with so many interpretative possibilities for the first movement alone that there simply was no wrong or right way to play this. All you had to do was capture the listener and draw them into so many minutes of deeply involving music - if you had the skill to do it.

Schnabel was a revelation! Everyone knows him for his LvB but his Schubert is so much better.

And then I heard Richter..... First the Salzburg studio recording and after that the live Prague. I wasn't shocked by the tempo of Movement I as I'd already heard his equally slow D894 but this was simply riveting. The subtle (and not so subtle) contrasts in dynamics, tempo and counterpoint were, to me, just sublime. But the best was yet to come. That achingly emotive second movement is one of the greatest things ever written for piano. I remember learning movement II and agonising over the dynamics you would apply to each note in the first few bars. There were no chords so each note was on its own. How would you play it. Listen to Richter in this and you have your answer. Interestingly, In think he is even better in his Salzburg studio recording.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

A wonderful work. There is so much in it. A key piano work of the Romantic era (an era that includes Beethoven for me). I know quite a few impressive recordings. Kovacevich's is perhaps his very greatest record which is saying a lot!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

GMB said:


> I find the first movement is repetitive and boring.






 ominous-sounding minor seconds leading to a climax, and then a contemplative section in D minor (6:27), -One of the most memorable passages from the movement, don't you think?


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Walter Klien was the very definition of "underrated" IMHO. I have a number of his Mozart sonatas (including positively the best performance of Mozart's Sonata in D for two pianos K448 that I've ever heard, in tandem with Alfred Brendel) and a Brahms recital on LP, and every one is top quality.


I remember hearing Klein in recital at the Wigmore Hall many, many years ago. Very fine pianist.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

I like all the Schubert Sonatas. Some are great. All are at least very good. 960 is right up at or near the top. Actually Schubert has risen to the top of my favored composers for solo piano fwiw. I have the Kovachevick 960 on Hyperion


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## Wigmar (7 mo ago)

mossyembankment said:


> I think it's very beautiful, maybe my favorite of his sonatas.


I agree. A beautiful sonata. I find each movement to be a masterpiece and, in sum, to me, this work represents one of the finest works from Schubert.
My favourite recordings are as follows: 
Svjatoslav Richter ( lp Eurodisc 86222 MK, recorded 1972)
Alfred Brendel (cd Philips 289456573-2,
recorded 'live' 1997), 
with preference for Brendel. 

Best regards,
wigmar


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

jdec said:


> I wonder why there's no love here for Horowitz's rendition on DG. It's my favorite version of D960.


I have this too. Magical!


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

The first movement of D960 for me is possibly Schubert's most profound utterance so naturally I don't agree with the OP. It will only work with a performance to match, though, and for me has to be Richter.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Schubert's D960 is overrated. Does anyone agree?*

I plan on responding to this query as soon as I finish listening to what may well be my 960th hearing of Schubert's Piano Sonata No. 21 In B Flat Major, a favorite sonata, especially when I can hear it on recordings by Annie Fischer, Sviatoslav Richter, Mitsuko Uchida, Alfred Brendel, Clara Haskil, Arthur Rubinstein, Radu Lupu, Lazar Berman, Klára Würtz ... all of which are currently in my disc collection.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Kreisler jr said:


> I think these two are rather underrated (I used to underrate D 845 myself but always liked the shorter D 784 (and the beautiful D 664, maybe the first great instrumental piece Schubert wrote, admittedly I don't really care for any of the ones before that, as charming as some of them are). If above I agreed to some extent with the "overrating" of D 960, I didn't mean that it is not a great piece. I just don't think that it is an uber-piece superior to the other late Schubert sonatas as it sometimes seems to be treated (it also seems by far the most recorded Schubert sonata? Rubinstein, Horowitz, Berman, Annie Fischer apparently only recorded this sonata by Schubert). The last 6 (D 845, 850, 894, 958, 959, 960, plus the unfinished D 840 that is only lesser because of its incomplete state) seem to me of similar quality (although I don't like D 850 so much); I don't see 960 sticking out as extraordinary.


As I happen to own it, I know there is a recording of 959 by Annie Fischer, taken from a radio broadcast of a recital she gave in Montreal in 1984. BTW, I agree there is a lot of great music in Schubert's late piano sonatas, it never occurred to me to worry about 960's place in the rankings. It does have some significant and unique attributes, imo.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

regenmusic said:


> I thought this was an April Fools joke as I did not know his oeuvre went up that high.
> 
> I thought you were all playing it excellently until I googled the piece.


What do you mean?

added: Oh, maybe you 960 works.
LvB worked on about 200 in his lifetime. JsB worked on about 2000 probably. LvB's IQ, calculated from his youthful pieces, was 120, and JsB's IQ was 165.


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