# Our favourite opera composer



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I think this poll was not been proposed before, I have used the Search facility to check and only found a partial poll about Belcanto composers. If I'm wrong, please merge or delete the poll, as appropriate.

I've selected the most recognizable names, to me, but feel free to use the 'Other' option, I will collect all votes, and publish a final result including all names mentioned.

About mine, it's a close call between Bellini, Verdi and Berg... I'll go with Bellini this time.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

It's too tough for me - I won't vote. I was attracted to vote for either Bellini or Wagner the most. But I can't take Bellini for my favourite if he didn't write Tristan. And I can't choose Wagner if he didn't write Norma. It's least answerable TC poll for me among all that I can think of.


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## Grosse Fugue (Mar 3, 2010)

It was a tough call between Mozart and Rossini


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Between Wagner, Mozart, Verdi, and Handel, I just can't pick just one.
I'm inclined to refrain from voting.
Being back from the spectacular Siegfried from Met in HD I'd bee too inclined to pick Wagner.
But any other day the other three give me as much pleasure.
It's impossible. I won't vote.
(PS - Berlioz for me is a close fifth, and then Donizetti, Bellini, Rossini, and R. Strauss are also tough competition).


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Mozart - definitely.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

The age old best vs. favorite question  For best I'd put Wagner and Mozart tied for first. For favorite I'd put Mozart and Donizetti tied for first. So I guess Mozart takes it since he ties for tops in both categories.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Opera: We are opera, hear our opera!! We sing and dance and we are opera!
Wagner: _This_ is opera.
Opera: Oh.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Puccini, just ahead of Wagner and Strauss.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I like or even love a number on the list (mostly the Italians & French - I'd add Berlioz & maybe Gounod as well?) but I chose "other" for *Berg's Wozzeck, *which moves me and engages me on many levels, too much to speak of. I immediately "clicked" with it in my teens, without hearing much "atonal" type music at all at that stage. & even though I largely dislike Wagner in terms of listening to an opera of his in complete form (although I like his orchestral highlights a lot) I must admit that his influence on guys like Berg was phenomenal. So he doesn't get my vote, but in some ways at least, my respect. Keep in mind that I am by no means a big opera fan, it's my least favourite genre, but I got a good deal of exposure to it through my parents...


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Giuseppe Verdi.

I love all his operas and for different reasons. Some are poor musically, some are set to stupid libretti but for me they're all beautiful simply because they are _Verdi_.

I can't explain it properly but I think falling in love with a composer or an opera is like falling in love. You don't choose to do it, it just happens.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Wow, only 1 for Rossini so far. I threw in a chip for Janacek.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

As much as I love the operas of Mozart and Verdi, I voted for "other" -- i.e., Beethoven.
Yes, I know he only wrote one opera.  But it's my favorite, I-Can't-Live-Without-It opera.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Giuseppe Verdi.
> 
> I love all his operas and for different reasons. Some are poor musically, some are set to stupid libretti but for me they're all beautiful simply because they are _Verdi_.
> 
> *I can't explain it properly but I think falling in love with a composer or an opera is like falling in love. You don't choose to do it, it just happens*.


There is a depth and complexity to Verdi's mature masterworks that reveals itself after further exploration, take time to sink in and grow on you over time


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

although I cannot possibly choose, I have, in fact voted for Mozart, but that's a slap in the eye for Handel, Verdi, Puccini and Wagner, etc etc. There is no one on that list I don't like a lot. aarggh.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Wagner, by a fair margin.

Then a handful of others, including Verdi (particularly later works where he assimilates the Wagnerian influence while making it uniquely his own), Mozart, and increasingly Richard Strauss.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Opera: We are opera, hear our opera!! We sing and dance and we are opera!
> Wagner: _This_ is opera.
> Opera: Oh.


As much as I appreciate the humor in your contributions about how Wagner is above everybody else (I do, I'm not being sarcastic), I think there are a fair number of operas out there just as good as Wagner's, and those do not have sing-along and dancing.

Verdi's Otello and Falstaff are examples. Operas like Pelléas et Mélisande and Peter Grimes are also no small potatoes in the matter of musical drama without sing-along and dancing. Operas like Lulu and Wozzeck also qualify for this intensity. Richard Strauss has composed his share of striking works like Salome and Elektra. Then, if you look in the opposite direction, one can't miss the beauty and solemnity of Monteverdi's operas.

Sure, as much as I like him (and I crazily do), it is hard to place a Rossini ahead of a Wagner - although some of Rossini's dramatic works like Ermione are also quite impressive. Some examples of French Grand Opéra do pale in comparison to Wagner's musical dramas (Meyerbeer comes to mind).

But to consider that all of opera can't hold a candle to Wagner's dozen performed operas is a bit much, and I say so while placing a good number of his operas among my top favorites - including my number 1.

The opera corps out there has literally dozens and dozens of worthy operas that can't be reduced to dancing sing-along, composed both before and after the Wagner era.

But as a figurative expression of the green creature's tastes, I enjoy what you say.:tiphat:


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

A pity we don't have multiple choices..."mon coeur balance" between Wagner and Tchaikovsky...maybe Puccini and Moussorgsky...

Martin


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> As much as I appreciate the humor in your contributions about how Wagner is above everybody else (I do, I'm not being sarcastic), I think there are a fair number of operas out there just as good as Wagner's, and those do not have sing-along and dancing.
> 
> Verdi's Otello and Falstaff are examples. Operas like Pelléas et Mélisande and Peter Grimes are also no small potatoes in the matter of musical drama without sing-along and dancing. Operas like Lulu and Wozzeck also qualify for this intensity. Richard Strauss has composed his share of striking works like Salome and Elektra. Then, if you look in the opposite direction, one can't miss the beauty and solemnity of Monteverdi's operas.


Interesting how many of the operas you single out were written under Wagner's influence (even _Pelléas et Mélisande_, which Debussy composed as a kind of antidote to _Tristan und Isolde_). Of course, Wagner couldn't have existed either without those who came before him, but still the shadow he cast over all later operatic history is pretty impressive.

None of which, of course, means that he has to be anybody's *favorite* composer!


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Butbutbutbutbutbut. I have really big problems trying to pick just one. There's Wagner, but there's also Mozart, Händel, Verdi, Rossini, Strauss (I have very recently fallen head-over-heels in love with Elektra) and Britten (the same goes for The Turn of the Screw. Ian Bostridge's prologue is mouthwatering). In the end I chose Wagner.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

amfortas said:


> Interesting how many of the operas you single out were written under Wagner's influence (even _Pelléas et Mélisande_, which Debussy composed as a kind of antidote to _Tristan und Isolde_). Of course, Wagner couldn't have existed either without those who came before him, but still the shadow he cast over all later operatic history is pretty impressive.
> 
> None of which, of course, means that he has to be anybody's *favorite* composer!


Influenced, yes, but also very unique.
And one can find examples before Wagner as well.
I'm not trying to deny Wagner's influence in opera.
I'm just saying that there are many operas out there that are as good as his, that one can't cancel the whole repertory to say that they are not operas, that only Wagner's operas are operas.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

This morning Wagner was tied for second with Verdi at 3 votes. This afternoon, after I re-open this thread, Wagner now leads Mozart 8-7 and has victoriously strode into a glorious lead.

The heavens have heard our call.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

On another note, I'm thinking about making another account just to vote for poor Handel, who surely deserves as least as many votes as Puccini. I think Alma would approve of this motion, if no one else is to correct this travesty.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> As much as I appreciate the humor in your contributions about how Wagner is above everybody else (I do, I'm not being sarcastic), I think there are a fair number of operas out there just as good as Wagner's, and those do not have sing-along and dancing.
> 
> Verdi's Otello and Falstaff are examples. Operas like Pelléas et Mélisande and Peter Grimes are also no small potatoes in the matter of musical drama without sing-along and dancing. Operas like Lulu and Wozzeck also qualify for this intensity. Richard Strauss has composed his share of striking works like Salome and Elektra. Then, if you look in the opposite direction, one can't miss the beauty and solemnity of Monteverdi's operas.
> 
> ...


Yes, you'll have to forgive that post of mine, it was written under the influence of both wine and Siegfried afterglow. I wasn't trying to say all other operas are frivolous or anything, my posts like that are always facetious and actually semisatirical of Wagnerism. I swear my posts will become less stupid as I expand my listening repertoire, but that will take some time yet and somehow I will have to curb this whole Wagner-addicition.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Couchie said:


> Yes, you'll have to forgive that post of mine, it was written under the influence of both wine and Siegfried afterglow. I wasn't trying to say all other operas are frivolous or anything, my posts like that are always facetious and actually semisatirical of Wagnerism. I swear my posts will become less stupid as I expand my listening repertoire, but that will take some time yet and somehow I will have to curb this whole Wagner-addicition.


Actually, I thought it was pretty catchy.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Yes, you'll have to forgive that post of mine, it was written under the influence of both wine and Siegfried afterglow. I wasn't trying to say all other operas are frivolous or anything, my posts like that are always facetious and actually semisatirical of Wagnerism. I swear my posts will become less stupid as I expand my listening repertoire, but that will take some time yet and somehow I will have to curb this whole Wagner-addicition.


You're forgiven, green creature.:kiss:

[please notice that you've been upgrade to creature, from monster]


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Air said:


> On another note, I'm thinking about making another account just to vote for poor Handel, who surely deserves as least as many votes as Puccini. I think Alma would approve of this motion, if no one else is to correct this travesty.


OK, I hear you, and since I hold Wagner, Mozart, Verdi, and Handel in pretty much equal esteem, I've voted for Handel so that the poor guy is not left out.


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

My mind said Verdi? Wagner? Verdi? Wagner? VERDI! And now I feel horribly for not considerin Mozart seriously enough.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm surprised Mozart currently has as much voting for him as Wagner (8 people for each). It seems that the Wagner fans are more vocal here, no pun intended, than the Mozart fans, for whatever reason (probably to do with meglomania?) :lol:

People here are out of touch with reality, not a single vote for Bizet, but his _Carmen _is the most popular opera of the lot, & of very high quality as well, even Wagner admired it highly, & Mahler liked Bizet in general as well. The opera about the Spanish gypsy factory worker, heart-breaker girl has sold more records than both Wagner and Mozart put together, & also been staged many more times, I'd hazard a guess...


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Sid James said:


> People here are out of touch with reality, not a single vote for Bizet, but his _Carmen _is the most popular opera of the lot, & of very high quality as well, even Wagner admired it highly, & Mahler liked Bizet in general as well. The opera about the Spanish gypsy match-seller heart-breaker girl has sold more records than both Wagner and Mozart put together, & also been staged many more times, I'd hazard a guess...


Yes but we're voting for _our_ favourite composer not for the most popular or well known.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Sid James said:


> I'm surprised Mozart currently has as much voting for him as Wagner (8 people for each). It seems that the Wagner fans are more vocal here, no pun intended, than the Mozart fans, for whatever reason (probably to do with meglomania?)


I'm a proud fan of both Mozart and Wagner and not ashamed to admit it. And I guess I've been pretty vocal about both.

Sid, I would definitely have voted for Bizet (and almost all the composers on this list) if I had had more votes. But unfortunately, I was only allowed one.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

sospiro said:


> Yes but we're voting for _our_ favourite composer not for the most popular or well known.


Well, that's true, I was probably not on the right wavelength there, entirely...



Air said:


> I'm a proud fan of both Mozart and Wagner and not ashamed to admit it. And I guess I've been pretty vocal about both...


Well, maybe it's that in real life I come across more admirers of Mozart than Wagner, the former (like J.S. Bach) seems to have near universal admiration, whereas the latter is very controversial with some people, to say the least.



> Sid, I would definitely have voted for Bizet (and almost all the composers on this list) if I had had more votes. But unfortunately, I was only allowed one.


Yes, I would have voted for Bizet as well/additionally, but I voted "other" for Berg & I think I agree with the poster above about Beethoven's _Fidelio_, it always moved me deeply, my parents listened to it a lot. & the Italians as well, I could've voted for any of them virtually...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

...as for Tchaikovsky, some people I've talked to over the years (some fans of opera to varying degrees) think Tchaikovsky's _Eugene Onegin_ is very boring, probably more in terms of plot than anything, but maybe in terms of drama/action & "exciting" music. What do you all think, is it like what some people say of Ambrose Thomas' _Hamlet_, which is only noted for the mad scene of Ophelia, the rest said to be boring (I only know the mad scene). Is Tatiana's letter scene the same, the only "good" part of _Onegin_? Is this why people are avoiding Tchaikovsky here? Thoughts?...


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I know many people that qualify as 'opera fans' and the average thinking is very far from considering Tchaikovsky's _Eugene Onegin_ as any kind of boring.

For sure there are many interesting things in this opera, on top of Tatiana's letter. Just to show you a couple:


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

If you say anything bad about _Eugene Onegin_, I will challenge you to a duel. Or I will spurn your unrequited love for me. Your choice.


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## CameraEye (Nov 18, 2011)

Verdi, definitely. And not only for his later works.


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## MAnna (Sep 19, 2011)

Handel. It has to be Handel. He was so good, he copied himself :lol:


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

*NO* love for Richard Strauss at *all*???


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## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

Although I respect those other composers no one could ever knock Mozart off of the top of my list for operas.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Britten! Of course! I love Britten's operas! He has an amazing skill to compose for any instrument as if he was the master of it. His vocal and dramatic writing is equally amazing, and he has the astounding capacity to draw people in to the plot more than any other opera composer I know.

In another forum there was also a poll about people's favourite opera composers. Britten wasn't there as an option I was a bit cranky about it!


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Mmmm... let me see the list:

B for Berg... nope!
L for Lully... nope!
M for Mussorgsky... nope!
P for Purcell... nope!
R for Rameau... nope!

What kind of list is this? Five of my favorite opera composers are not included! 

My vote goes for "other" in protest.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

For me, Stockhausen, Brett Dean and Ligeti come close to the top, but not my favourite.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Britten! Of course! I love Britten's operas! He has an amazing skill to compose for any instrument as if he was the master of it. His vocal and dramatic writing is equally amazing, and *he has the astounding capacity to draw people in to the plot more than any other opera composer I know*.


I'm watching Billy Budd for the umpteenth time, and every time I think to myself - perhaps Vere will save Billy - just this once!


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

Mozart #1........... I also enjoy Rossini, Verdi and the Beethoven opera.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Stockhausen should have been included in the poll. While his epic opera cycle "Licht" is pretty fantastic, I didn't vote for him. He _should_ be in there though.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

I voted for Rossini as he always manages to brighten my mood with his sparkling opera. There is no Rossini opera I did not fully enjoy. My last love is his Guillemo Tell.
But, big enough to surpass him are both Mozart and Verdi. They are amazing and impossible to classify.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

sabrina said:


> I voted for Rossini as he always manages to brighten my mood with his sparkling opera. There is no Rossini opera I did not fully enjoy. My last love is his Guillemo Tell.
> But, big enough to surpass him are both Mozart and Verdi. They are amazing and impossible to classify.


What a wonderful genius was Rossini.
To think that , while reusing part of his previous music, he did Il Barbiere and Cenerentola in around three weeks or so.


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't want to offend the many *Wagnerians* on the forum. Sadly I've always been left underwhelmed by *Wagner's* operas with the exception of *Tristan und Isolde*.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I'm surprised Mozart currently has as much voting for him as Wagner (8 people for each). It seems that the Wagner fans are more vocal here, no pun intended, than the Mozart fans, for whatever reason (probably to do with meglomania?)

I don't know if Mozart fans are all that subdued in comparison to Wagnerians (and I say this as a fan of both). Mozart has more than his share of defenders against the ever annoying Beethoven/Romantic fan-boys who would paint him as some light-weight rococo powder puff.

Personally, choosing the greatest composer of operas would ultimately come to a decision between Mozart and Wagner. As much as I love Richard Strauss, Puccini, Verdi, etc... Wagner surpasses all of these... and his Ring, Tristan und Isolde, and Parsifal tower above all (IMO) as the greatest operatic achievements ever... with the single possible exception of Mozart. I love Monteverdi's Orfeo, Handel and Vivaldi's operas... Rameau... Donizetti, Bellini, and Rossini... and the grossly underrated Gluck... but Mozart is of another realm altogether. Asked to name the greatest opera of all time I'd respond _Tristan und Isolde_... or _Le Nozee di Figaro_. I have multiple recordings of each of Mozart's great 4 operas (_Le Nozze di Figaro, Don Giovanni, Cosi fan tutte, and The Magic Flute_) because on is not enough (and these aren't actually the only "great" operas by Mozart: _Idomeneo, The Abduction from the Seraglia,_ and _La clemenza di Tito_ would likely be recognized as among the greatest works in any other composer's oeuvre). Wagner's great operas are a music of unrivaled profundity... transformative and sublime. Mozart's operas are music of sheer joy... but joy that dances on the edge of a knife... and every so often... if only for a few seconds... slips into the deepest and most heartbreaking moments of melancholy... of recognition that this joy cannot last... before it goes off dancing away again.

Torn between these two possibilities I honestly cannot choose.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

After seeing the "greatest symphonists" thread, I sorely wish I were allowed three votes here as well. I can't choose between Wagner and Verdi, and I would also like to put a vote in "other" for Messiaen, as his St. François is my definite favourite opera.

I just can't do it.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

^^^^Vote for *Britten*


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I voted other for Messiaen.


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## Moscow-Mahler (Jul 8, 2010)

I dunno... I voted for Richard Strauss, because Salome and Elektra are my favorite operas at that moment.
But it can be Mozart or late Verdi or Wagner, or maybe Berg.

Or maybe I should have voted for Shostakovich? Among my compatriots I would choose him.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

No one has voted for Bizet yet. Doesn't anyone like his opera "Djamileh?" I think it's ok but not anywhere near as good as *Britten's* operas!


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Wagner of course! 

I'm surprised Verdi and Strauss aren't higher than they are though. But this poll doesn't seem to have had activity in awhile.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I voted for *Mozart*, his operas are far and away my favorites. But *Verdi *is #2, and I would have liked to have seen him surpass Wagner. But I suppose that is unrealistic given the givens.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Wagner by a hair over Puccini


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ^^^^Vote for *Britten*


*Britten*'s operas are truly fine works. _Death in Venice_ is my favorite, but I've listened to all of them and find they are all works I have enjoyed.

I agree with *Crudblud*, and would have liked to have the opportunity to vote for three composers. Britten might have challenged *Puccini* for my third vote.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Wagner by far for me.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Wagner by a hair over Puccini


I do like Puccini's operas. Not all the time though, or I'll be crying too much.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I will start thinking hard before I vote .


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Art Rock said:


> Puccini, just ahead of Wagner and Strauss.


Well, that really changed in almost 9 years. Now it is Wagner, clearly ahead of Puccini, then Britten.


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Definitely Wagner. Before i listened to his operas and to use his own terms, his music dramas, i didn't even like opera. ( I only had listened to Strauss's Elektra)


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## ThaNotoriousNIC (Jun 29, 2020)

If the profile pic did not give it away, I chose Wagner in the poll. Verdi and Puccini are my close second and third. I've been listening to a lot of bel canto the past two weeks so maybe with an enough exposure, Rossini, Bellini, and Donizetti can put some pressure on Puccini in the rankings.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

It's Mozart for me with Handel and Strauss in reserve.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm guessing that Wagner has such a substantial lead because his operas contain a lot of music that would appeal to people whose musical interests lie predominantly elsewhere, or who don't even care greatly for opera. You can enjoy substantial chunks of it without having to listen to singing or know what the singing is about. 

Of course there's also the fact that his works are just jaw-droppingly, gobsmackingly amazing.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Having to choose between Händel, Mozart, Verdi and Wagner is cruel! The fact that Callas sings, Bellini, *Cherubini*, Donizetti, Gluck, and Rossini makes it impossible!


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

Wagner: the sound of Bayreuth, sensual and erotic music, librettos, revolution in harmony, orchestra, colour, influence in films and literature, philosophy.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I voted for *Mozart*, but *Monteverdi*, *Handel*, *Rossini* and *Gluck* (missing from the poll) figure almost as much as Mozart regarding the opera I listen most often. *Haydn* also wrote some good operas, and a lot of them. Among the standard opera house fare, *Verdi* looms large for me. But Wagner is not on my radar.

For me, *Mozart* is the greatest composer of opera that we will ever see.


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## Caesura (Apr 5, 2020)

I ultimately voted for Mozart (I love the Marriage of Figaro and the Magic Flute), but Handel is my close second.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> It's Mozart for me with Handel and Strauss in reserve.


We have similar taste: Mozart got my vote, but my other favorite opera composers are Handel, Rossini and Verdi (and to a lesser degree, Monteverdi and Gluck, which I mentioned previously).


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

For the fan in me, Wagner. For the singer in me, Verdi. I voted Wagner.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

How is Richard Strauss so low?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Rogerx said:


> I will start thinking hard before I vote .


I am still not sure. :angel:


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

adriesba said:


> How is Richard Strauss so low?


I presume even people who love Strauss wouldn't put him ahead of Wagner or Mozart or Verdi.


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Gluck isn't on this list, and he's in my top 5.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Ulfilas said:


> I presume even people who love Strauss wouldn't put him ahead of Wagner or Mozart or Verdi.


True. There's strong competition. As brilliant as any other composer may be, I could never rank any of them higher than Wagner.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Rogerx said:


> I am still not sure. :angel:


Do you have a top three or five?


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## Artran (Sep 16, 2016)

Janáček, Monteverdi, Britten. These three are my favorite from the list.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

A very easy vote for Bellini, because he is my most recent obsession.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> *Haydn*


Amen.
The harmonic tension and the thirst for resolution (~ 4:06)-


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Amen.
> The harmonic tension and the thirst for resolution (~ 4:06)-


There's just no predicting what will make someone tense and thirsty... Five minutes of alternating tonic and dominant chords don't do it for me. They do suggest why Mike Haydn's operas aren't box office.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> They do suggest why Mike Haydn's operas aren't box office.


the "chord" at 4:42-




the tension built up until 3:50-




Likewise,
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecq2B4CxCEw&t=1m11s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7ZgK2cHBDM&t=2m19s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK8s1NPlrZk&t=6m8s

Also btw, I totally understand all your views such as


Woodduck said:


> a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down in the most delightful way


 and all your responses to DavidA (regarding Mozart).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> There's just no predicting what will make someone tense and thirsty...


Friend Woodduck, I guess this is in some ways related to discussions we had on topics of objectivity/subjectivity (I don't think your views were wrong or uninsightful in any way - just a different way to look at things, from mine). I believe Mozart's traits such as darkness of chromatic harmony and sleekness of vocal writing & instrumental melody, can be objectively found in the other composer (albeit manifested in different ways). What's subjective is whether or not those traits (shared by both composers) are necessarily desirable, or positive, or lead to musical depth. (Various people in history, especially those from Mozart's time and place, actually found Mozart's use of harmony, for instance, undesirable or grating, as I explained before. And lots of people today simply find it _creamy_.) Last week, I was listening to this string quintet in F, (www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a6LX8PSPyI&t=2m25s / www.youtube.com/watch?v=en-ekCM2Lu4&t=55s) and a Mozart work side by side, and although I kept thinking I still _prefer_ the Mozart, it was impossible for me to deny the other composer had all _those traits_, just manifested in different ways. The more I think this way, the more I come to understand views like _"Just cause Mozart has some 'pleasing characteristics' (which aren't even really that 'special' anyway, depending on context), it doesn't mean his farcical operatic expressions aren't farcical. Let's not kid ourselves."_


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Friend Woodduck, I guess this is in some ways related to discussions we had on topics of objectivity/subjectivity (I don't think your views were wrong or uninsightful in any way - just a different way to look at things, from mine). I believe Mozart's traits such as darkness of chromatic harmony and sleekness of vocal writing & instrumental melody, can be objectively found in the other composer (albeit manifested in different ways). What's subjective is whether or not those traits (shared by both composes) are necessarily desirable, or positive, or lead to musical depth. (Various people in history, especially those from Mozart's time and place, actually found Mozart's use of harmony, for instance, undesirable or grating, as I explained before. And lots of people today simply find it _creamy_.) Last week, I was listening to this string quintet in F, (www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a6LX8PSPyI&t=2m25s / www.youtube.com/watch?v=en-ekCM2Lu4&t=55s) and a Mozart work side by side, and although I kept thinking I still _prefer_ the Mozart, it was impossible for me to deny* the other composer had all those traits, just manifested in different ways.* The more I think this way, the more I'm inclined to understand views like _"Just cause Mozart has some 'pleasing characteristics' (which isn't even really that 'special' anyway, depending on context), it doesn't mean his farcical operatic expressions aren't farcical. Let's not kid ourselves."_


In art, "manifesting traits in different ways" is to have different traits. Musical contemporaries such as Mozart and Michael Haydn may utilize a nearly identical vocabulary of harmony and rhythm, as well as similar formal concepts, yet still be different in very important ways. Perhaps you don't disagree, or perhaps you do. Outside of that, I don't get the purpose of your post, unless Mike's ghost is paying you to keep his name before the public.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> yet still be different in very important ways.


There are of course things found in Mozart that are not found in the other, almost forgotten composer, (and vice-versa). For example, vast stretches of Alberti bass patterns like the one that opens K.496, a style of which many consider as an abomination, as did a certain "objectivist" Bach admirer who kept appearing on the forum under different names. I think this is getting beyond the scope of this thread, I'll discuss no more. I respect all your views.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

My favorites have changed in the last year. 

Tied now for first place are *Mozart* and *Verdi*. Verdi might even have it over Mozart because of the quality across the 15-16 great operas, and the variety of his works offers an ever-renewing interest and enjoyment. 

After those two, are *Puccini *and *Rossini*. 

These four make up the bulk of my opera listening, although I also spend time seeking out and listening to contemporary works - I am not a fan of atonal works in general, with a few exceptions. So my #5 choice would be the latest *new opera* (i.e. the last 50 years) that I've heard and enjoyed.

While I respect Wagner as a great operatic composer I can't say he is among my favorites since I still find his work difficult. Not the music, so much, as his overwrought seriousness. I am just not as interested in what he writes about as I am with Verdi and Mozart, and in Italian opera in general.


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