# Classical concertos



## yBrKay

Hello. I've recently interested in concertos of the Classical Period, and i'd like to ask some questions about it.

1. I've noticed that there an interplay between tuttis and solo parts, particularly in Mozarts piano concerti and Haydn's cello concerti, and I don't really get it. Could someone explain to me what is the interplay's relation to form?

2. Another thing I have noticed is a constant 'motif' (or something like it) present in all concertos I've from this period: A fermata (generally a whole or half note) followed by a three eight note motiv. Can you tell me what is it and does it have a name?

Thank you in advance.


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## Bevo

I'm not really sure how to answer 1. The is just the composers decision. This is actually one of the things that made Mozart's Piano Concertos so revolutionary is the interplay between orchestra and Piano, especially with the winds in his later ones. One reason this can be a smart technique is to stress a motif, theme, or idea. You have to remember, they didn't have recordings back in the 18th century, so to make the themes memorable so the audience recognizes it later on when it is being developed this is a smart technique to stress the importance.
As for 2, I'm not 100% what you're asking. The only thing I can think is possibly you're hearing the V7 chord right before the Cadenza, which is the section that the soloist is meant to portray his skills by something he wrote based on the themes. At the same time, composers also wrote Cadenzas for their own pieces, as well as other composer's works, for others to play. Mozart wrote some, and Beethoven even wrote some for Mozart's concertos as well. Either way, they should all end on the same last few notes each time (usually a trill) to signal for the orchestra to comeback and usually play the Coda to end the work. Again, I don't know if this is what you were asking, sorry if it's not. Perhaps you could post a video and provide time marks so we know what you mean. Anyways, best of luck.


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## EdwardBast

First movement form in the classical concerto (so-called double exposition sonata form) integrates elements of three older forms, the da capo aria, ritornello form as heard in baroque solo concertos, and classical sonata form. The double exposition, whereby the principal themes are presented first by the orchestra and then by the soloist (often with significant alterations), comes from the da capo aria, where the main idea was presented first by the orchestra and then by the singer. Ritornello form, the standard form for the baroque concerto, alternates tutti and solo sections. Its influence on the classical concerto can be heard in the fact that the classical concerto exposition begins and ends with a tutti section, corresponding to the first and second ritornellos in its baroque counterpart. The development section and the solidifying of a standard key pattern are the contributions of classical sonata form.


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## drmdjones

Thank you EdwardBast for the informative discussion of the elements of concerto forms.

Just to add something to the answers to question 1, by the 1760s or so, the first movement concerto form had a more or less standardized alternation between solo and tutti sections, also alluded to by EdwardBast.

The tutti took the first exposition, the solo (with tutti interjections, especially to confirm the new key just before the second subject) took the second exposition, the tutti took the closing of the second exposition, the solo (again mixed with brief tutti parts and with tutti accompaniments) took the development. In the recapitulation, tutti and solo shared the exposition (now occurring only once) and the tutti took the final closing section.

So we have a pattern of alternation that goes T1, S1, T2, S2, T3/S3, T4.

Other movements are less standardized.

Mozart frequently wrote a second subject for the solo expo that differed from that of the tutti expo. Sometimes he forewent a second subject in the tutti expo. Both of these procedures were aimed, I believe, at having the second subject first appear in the new key. He would usually bring back both second subjects in the recap.

Brahms leaves out the second subject from the tutti expo of his violin concerto in a not too subtle way. He creates a "vacuum" where the second subject would have come making us aware that something is missing. It's worth a listen.

Question 2. Mozart uses a March rhythm in 4/4, quarter-dotted eighth-sixteenth-quarter-quarter, to begin several of the piano concertos. He also tends to structure his opening phrase with two bars of a rhythmic motif followed by two bars of a lyrical motif. These contrast and yet balance each other.

HTH. Hope this helps.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

If you want more information on Mozart Concertos, check out the book "Mozart and his Piano Concertos" by Cuthbert Girdlestone. Other than the occasional incessant opining, it's pretty informative and does not require too much of a theory background IIRC.


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