# lossless streaming services for classical: Idagio, Primephonic, or Tidal?



## msvadi

Hi everyone,

I've been using Apple Music since its start for streaming, but I'm now looking to switch to something else that has lossless options. I'm wondering which of the services has the most comprehensive catalog: Idagio, Primephonic, or Tidal?

I've been testing Idagio and Primephonic (in the trial mode) for a couple of days, and I've already found a few of my favorite albums on Primephonic that are not on Idagio (and based on web search of Tidal, I believe they are not on Tidal either). But it's still a very limited experience. 

On the other hand, Tidal and Idagio are in Bluesound Node 2i (which I just purchased), but Primephonic is not, so if there is not that much difference between what's available on different services, I would prefer to go with Tidal or Idagio.

Thanks


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## Malx

Depending on your location I would suggest trying Qobuz - decent catalogue of classical and other genres with Hi Res streaming available at a reasonable cost.


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## Bxnwebster

Although I cannot speak on the other two streaming services, I have recently started using Idagio and I love it. I have absolutely no complaints about the audio quality, abundance of recordings, and the overall organization of their music library (having recordings of the same work side-by-side and the directory of works on a given composer's page are life-changing). Also, I appreciate how it organizes the performers and giving credit to individuals rather than just the ensemble as a whole. However, there are two things with which I do find issue, albeit minor: the lack of album covers (they are still there, but you have to go to a specific recording to see it and is not shown when listening to the track) and managing playlists. When listening to a piece, the image shown is not its album cover, but the composer. Additionally, the list of recordings of a certain work shows the image of the performer for each recording. I personally like being able to see the album cover as it can help differentiate between recordings and it can make finding certain recordings easier (you may not know what the performer looks like, so it is difficult to recognize the recording immediately). Additionally, there is no easy way to organize playlists. Once you add a piece to the playlist, its position within the list is fixed and can only be changed by deleting and re-adding a bunch of tracks. The process of deleting tracks from a playlist is also time-consuming because you have to delete track-by-track (it would be beneficial if you could select multiple tracks to remove). These two cons by no mean discredit the quality of the streaming service; the cons are minor and are outweighed significantly by the pros. I highly recommend this service, but again, I have not used Primephonic or Tidal extensively and cannot compare it to other services.


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## msvadi

Thanks, Malx. Yes, I should have mentioned that I'm in Canada. I can see that Qobuz is compatible with Bluesound. But a quick web-based search shows that some of the same albums missing from Tidal and Idagio are also missing from Qobuz, but they are in Primephonic.


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## msvadi

Thanks, Bxnwebster. I've noticed too some of the issues you are describing. Overall, Primephonic feels like a more modern app than Idagio. For example, you can easily edit and re-arrange your playlists. Also, for some albums they even include booklets! 

Having said that, Primephonic's app certainly feels sluggish: when you switch between tabs or even albums, it needs to "think" for a moment. Also, the interface for fast forwarding or rewinding is buggy (at least on my iPhone).


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## Bxnwebster

msvadi said:


> Having said that, Primephonic's app certainly feels sluggish: when you switch between tabs or even albums,.


I also feel like the Idagio desktop application is very sluggish (it freezes a lot but may just be my computer), but the app for mobile devices works just fine.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I posted this a while back, and it might be of some interest to you.

As one of the only members here who does not own a single CD and who listens exclusively from streaming, I can help you out a bit. I have extensively tried both these streaming services and am currently subscribed to Primephonic. I have very similar tastes in performers as you and maybe these little comparison will help you out as both services have major pros and cons.

*Sound quality*
Both offer standard MP3 for their basic packages and charge something close to $14.99 per month for lossless (which I spring for). Both of them offer gapless playback (a non-compromising must for me) on mobile, but Idagio does not do so on their desktop app.

*Selection*
Idagio, in my experience, has the wider library. They have a lot of older performances that you might be interested in which Primephonic does not. However, Primephonic also has some very good recordings from all eras that Idagio does not. I would recommend trying the free trial on both (for the Primephonic free trial they don't even need your credit card info), searching for some specific recordings you're interested in, and seeing which service best provides what you're looking for.

*Search function*
Both services have a dreamy search function if you're used to searching for popular music on other services. Type any shorthand abbreviation for any work and you're likely to find what you're looking for. However, it's a bit tougher to search for the exact recording you want on Primephonic than it is on Idagio, in my experience.

I*nterface/Arrangement*
If your eyes are strained with a purely black and white interface, go for Primephonic. But in general I think Idagio's interface is more sleek and handsome. Both services are not ideal for arrangement of your personal album/recording library. On Idagio there is no option at all to arrange your albums alphabetically; it saves in an infernal random order without even a search function to find what you're looking for. Luckily the main search function is so good that you don't really need to save albums. On Primephonic you are given the option to save alphabetically, but have to manually change it every time you open the folder.

General downfalls of both and nice individual perks
The main downfall for both is that they heavily push newer recordings and performers to such an extent that the vintage recordings get buried. They're easy to find if you know what to search for, though. Primephonic does some interesting exclusive podcasts and performer interviews that can be intriguing. Both offer "classical radio" which I find is pretty much non-applicable to "serious" classical listeners. I do kind of like the "mood" function on Idagio, though, which lets you spin a wheel and gives you a piece that matches a certain emotion.

So it looks like I've given more positives to Idagio. Why do I use Primephonic? Because I only do my "serious" listening on desktop (my audiophile headphones will only work on my computer) and Idagio's desktop app is non-negotiably bad - terribly slow, clunky, and without gapless playback. If they updated that and maybe fixed their alphabetization function, I would switch back to them. But Primephonic meets my needs about as ideally as could be for right now.

*General recommendation if you're on mobile - Idagio.*


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## GrosseFugue

I have Primephonic and love it. They have curated lists, Editor Choices and podcast interviews with notable artists which are huge pluses. These people clearly know and love their Classical Music. Guy Jones, the head curator, also has an ongoing series where he talks about the various eras of music. They even have viewable booklets for albums (though not for all). I just thank the stars such a service exists! 

I mainly use it for headphone listening when I'm out and about. My home stereo has a USB port I can plug my music player into and also enjoy the streaming, however -- and maybe it's my imagination! -- but at 320 bit rate I don't think it sounds quite as full and nuanced as a regular CD. Of course, they also have a Hi-Res option but I don't have good enough equipment to take advantage of "better than CD" sound. Anyway, I like having both options. Eventually I suppose CDs will become a fringe market, but I still like them. https://www.talkclassical.com/69198-i-still-like-cds.html#post1983901


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## GrosseFugue

Oh, I want to add that Primephonic's "radio" option is a wonderful, wonderful feature! You can set what sort of genre, mood, vocal or instrument, etc. that you want and it will automatically comb through tens of thousands of albums and give you endless music, track after track. I've discovered many awesome and unusual pieces that way, particularly Medieval and Renaissance which I hardly know -- wow they made some beautiful music way back when. It's also really great for background music, in the morning with coffee and toast or just to chill at nights.


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## msvadi

In terms of sound quality, it seems that Idagio is quite behind Primephonic and Tidal. Idagio's lossless is only CD quality: 16-bit 44.1 kHz, while Primephonic and Tidal have higher than CD quality. As I understand, Primephonic goes up to 192 kHz/24 bit, and Tidal has Master (MQA), which sounds amazing to my ears. 

Unfortunately, Tidal is not classical music friendly at all (much worse than Apple Music in this respect). Also, Tidal seems to have the smallest classical catalog among the three services.


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## Bwv 1080

I have both Idagio and Amazon Unlimited, basically the same catalog, but Igagio's organization and sound quality is better. Being able to look up a specific work or composer is great


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## Guest

Another vote for Qobuz. Sure, their search function is maddening (you'll get very different results searching by title than by artist), but I rarely can't find what I want to listen to, and the sound is quite a bit better than Tidal's--I haven't tried Primephonic or Idagio.


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## jegreenwood

I have Tidal for two reasons: First, my listening is not limited to classical. I have my popular music workout playlists on Tidal. I also listen to jazz, standards, Broadway etc.

Second, Tidal can be integrated into the Logitech Media Server, allowing me to access my own library as well as Tidal from a single app. Let me add that I can use LMS not only for Squeezeboxes, but for anything that is ChromeCast enabled.

I have not used any of the classical streaming services, so I can’t compare sound quality, library size (although Tidal’s seems pretty good) or search functions (although I admit Tidal can be a pain in that respect).


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## msvadi

An update. It turns out that the range of options for lossless services is much narrower than it seems.

While Primephonic can stream Hi-Res, their downloads for offline listening are restricted to 256kbps MP3, even if you are on their highest Platinum plan. What's worse they don't reveal that information, until you confront them directly. The following information was posted here (not visible unless you have a login): https://community.primephonic.com/t...-are-restricted-to-mp3-256kbps-quality/683/11

Francesca (Primephonic)

Mar 22, 2021, 13:54 GMT+1

The audio quality of downloaded tracks is 256 kbps MP3 quality. The reason for this is twofold; we want to leave enough storage space to download multiple albums and playlists, without one app consuming all capacity, but also derives from the idea that lossless audio is not always supported to its full potential by mobile devices. The in-built DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) of mobile devices, but also from computers, is often of a solid basic level, but not suitable to enable hi-res audio; these devices have after all not specifically been designed to do so. If one stream wirelessly to a sound system or smart speakers, the DAC of the sound system will take over, enabling the hi-res audio. The idea is that if one listens at home with speakers, there is WiFi, so downloaded tracks are not necessary. Downloaded tracks are very useful for on the road when there is only a smartphone or tablet to listen with. Downloading hi-res files would not only indeed consume a lot of storage space, but would also make not that much of a difference, that's why we decided, for now, to keep downloaded tracks in MP3 quality.

Feel free to contact me if anything remains unclear or if you have other questions!

Kind regards,

Francesca

Primephonic Classical Evangelist

They are currently "debating" if they should be honest with their customers about the 256kbps limitations of their offline mode:

Francesca (Primephonic)
Mar 23, 2021, 11:54 GMT+1
USB and HDMI connections are always the best. Chromecast and Sonos are currently capped at 48 kHz, but we will change the infrastructure later this year so that higher sample rates can also be enabled with Chromecast.
This means that the current infrastructure doesn't allow higher sample rates than 48 kHz for wireless connections. Nevertheless, we still offer hi-res with cabled connections.
I will discuss your request of adding the downloaded audio quality information with the rest of the team.

Given their dishonest marketing approach and their slow and buggy app, I would recommend to stay away from Primephonic until they get their act together.

Unfortunately, it does not look like there are serious alternatives to Tidal among lossless services.


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## AndorFoldes

«I know it says super-duper high audio quality on the advertisement. However, we don’t think you need it except for in specific circumstances, so we’re going to choose when we give it to you. Besides, the infrastructure doesn’t really support the product we advertise.»


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## GrosseFugue

AndorFoldes said:


> «I know it says super-duper high audio quality on the advertisement. However, we don't think you need it except for in specific circumstances, so we're going to choose when we give it to you. Besides, the infrastructure doesn't really support the product we advertise.»


I primarily listen using my phone, so it's perfect for my needs. If you have a high-end DAP then maybe it's not as convenient. But few people walk around with several thousand dollars worth of cans and audio player. If I want better sound I'll connect to my DAC at home. There's still no better dedicated CM site, IMHO.

PS -- I live in a dense urban area. Even with good noise-cancelling 'phones there will be sounds intruding when I'm walking, at the park, etc. So, I don't see the practicality of Hi-Res in those situations. Not to mention the noise-cancelling will affect sound quality.


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## HenryPenfold

msvadi said:


> Thanks, Malx. Yes, I should have mentioned that I'm in Canada. I can see that Qobuz is compatible with Bluesound. But a quick web-based search shows that some of the same albums missing from Tidal and Idagio are also missing from Qobuz, but they are in Primephonic.


Interesting. I use Qobuz (switched from iTunes a few years ago) and from time to time things aren't available, or greyed out. Could you please name the albums you identified as missing from Qobuz? I'm dead curious!


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## Barnaby

Hi all,

Just found this thread and it's pretty relevant to my situation. The discussion of companies being honsest with their customers is relevant to my experience with Idagio too.

I'm been after a streaming service for classical for a while. I've given up on Apple Music/Spotify/Amazon for this and although Qobuz seems a good bit better I'm actually coming to the conclusion nothing does everything well and considering mixing two.

I would keep Apple music for general listening but so that I can get fairly good classical streaming I'm looking at some options like Idagio or Primephonic.

I don't know much about these last two but downloaded a trial of Idagio yesterday and they immediately made me hate them as they put me on a trial period of two weeks and said my subscription would automatically start after that. There was no information easily available as to what that sub would cost or any plan options. In fact I can see no plan comparison or information available just an attempt to get your money. So I dug into my Apple subscriptions list to find they were about to charge me nearly £200 at the end of the trial! They automatically put you on the highest tier plan annual subscription! I find this to be despicable. 

In addition their app was the buggiest I've used. It hung, wasn't unresponsive and was frustrating to use. If this is the way they do business they can forget it!

I cancelled the subscription and I'm ditching them today and downloading Primephonic. Their decision to limit downloads isn't great but my experience of Idagio left me angry and unimpressed with both their ethics and their product.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^I agree with your impressions of Idagio. It’s a shame because IMO they have the best CM catalog of any service I’ve tried, including many historical recordings from the likes of Testament that you just don’t find anywhere else. Actually, the main drawback with them for me is the fact that I do my serious listening on desktop, and their desktop app does not have gapless playback, which is unacceptable. You shouldn’t be disappointed with Primephonic; they don’t even need your credit card info for the free trial period and the catalog is just about equally good, with some really odd random omissions (e.g. the famous Reiner Verdi Requiem on Decca is unavailable when it’s there on every other service...WTH??)


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## Jokke

For me Spotify has always been the streaming service to go for classical.
In a few months they'll offer lossless too. (Not that I expect to hear the difference in SQ)


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## Barnaby

Well I've tried Qobuz, Primephonic, Amazon, and Idagio. 

My opinions are:

Idagio.
Awful. App is buggy. Don't like the way they do business re trying to lock you into the highest tier without telling you. Terrible experience and I hated it.

Qobuz
All right at most things. Moderately good to use. Fair for most genres. Good sound quality for sure. It works in a limited way with Apple Carplay which is good for me. It's just "all right" at everything but not great at anything.

Apple Music
Good app. Usual Apple slick interface and usual Apple quirkiness and stupidity from time to time. Still generally the nicest app to use for most functions. Siri is useable when driving etc. Works well with Carplay as you would expect. Sound is all right. Certainly plenty good enough for the car. Sound quality is good but it's pretty much useless for finding the classical pieces you want which is a dealbreaker for our purposes.

Primephonic
In many ways absolutely brilliant. An excellent app for phone but no integration with Carplay and ( totally bafflingly !!) no Desktop App to allow for downloads to your hard drive etc Mind you, it's so good, I'd forgive that if it wasn't restricted to one genre. I listen to lots of styles of music and am loathe to pay that kind of money for just classical. Probably the best combination for me would be to have it and Apple Music but it's expensive.

As is I'm likely to either go with Qobuz as a jack of all trades master of none, or else Primephonic with Apple, depending on how flush I'm feeling at the time. I'd do an annual subscription to whichever I choose. 

Another option is that I might even just get Primephonic Premium which streams at 320kbps which to be honest is maybe all I need. I'm not sure how to try it as my trial period is in full quality so I can't compare the MP3. As I age I'm wondering if I'd really hear the differences now, or TBH whether I care as much.


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