# Non-religious composers?



## Ephemerid

Yesterday I stumbled on a little factoid I never knew-- *Rimsky-Korsakov *was an atheist.

I had known for some time that *Vaughan Williams *was also an atheist-agnostic (which is ironic, considering the amount of religious music he wrote).

And I knew *Shostakovich *was an atheist, though this is not too surprising.

*Debussy *was something of a "pagan" -- he was non-religious in any orthodox sense to say the least.

The case of *Beethoven *is not so clear cut, though he certainly seemed far from being a Christian in any sense of the word (beside just culturally speaking).

I'm not so certain, but with *Richard Strauss' *Thus Spake Zarathustra being inspired by Nietzsche, I imagine he was at least non-religious.

Many composers were of course very religious and some are easy to spot: Bach, Messiaen, Stravinsky, Arvo Part, and many others. I don't want to get into any religious debate-- I'm just curious, being a non-believer myself (please, no flaming-- I'm not interested in theological debates). Of course religious affiliation doesn't necessarily have a bearing on their qualities as composers or as human beings (religious or otherwise). 

Is anyone else aware of non-religious composers? I say "non-religious" because that covers everything under atheism and agnosticism, but I'd like to extend that to heterodox or unorthodox ideas like deism, pantheism, etc. as well.


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## david johnson

religion or it's lack does not seem to affect a composer's ability, not even their choice of titles and thematic material.

verdi wrote some moving sacred music, but wasn't much of a believer.
r/k wrote 'russian easter overture'.

beware of after-the-fact exposés, if that is where you found this data. they are sometimes p/c revisionist to the core.
the old 'out classics' series claimed bi-sexual guys as being homosexual. plain dishonest.

interesting the r/k is buried in a monastery and has an almost celtic cross for a headstone.

dj


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## Ephemerid

No, Vaughan Williams & Shostakovich is fairly well-known (I knew about this ages ago and Debussy was quite open about his unorthodox outlook.

I read some of the sources on wikipedia on Rimsky-Korsakov and apparently Stravinsky (who was a devout Russian Orthodox and a student of R-K) didn't approve of his being "closed to any religious or metaphysical idea" as he put it.

I mean its not surprising, seeing as how there were plenty of people that didn't fall into the "religious norm" in literature as well, but its something that never occurred to me with composers before, especially in light of sacred works being written.


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## Ephemerid

Brahms too? At least, that's as much as I could gather from this page by a Catholic priest. Dvorak apparently was dismayed by this fact.


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## Rondo

Bruckner, Mahler and Liszt were highly religious.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Ephemerid said:


> Yesterday I stumbled on a little factoid I never knew-- *Rimsky-Korsakov *was an atheist.





david johnson said:


> interesting that r/k is buried in a monastery and has an almost celtic cross for a headstone.


Death-bed conversion?! (This, of course, is idle speculation.)


Ephemerid said:


> I had known for some time that *Vaughan Williams *was also an atheist-agnostic (which is ironic, considering the amount of religious music he wrote).


_Job- A Masque for Dancing_. Perhaps not so ironic, after all.


Ephemerid said:


> And I knew *Shostakovich *was an atheist, though this is not too surprising.


Possibly something of a "teleological argument for the _non_-existence of God"... in Shostakovich's mind.


Ephemerid said:


> I'm not so certain, but with *Richard Strauss' *Thus Spake Zarathustra being inspired by Nietzsche, I imagine he was at least non-religious.


seems effectively addressed by


david johnson said:


> religion or its lack does not seem to affect a composer's ability, not even... choice of titles or thematic material.


True- I suppose no more than one could make an assertion that Milton's Paradise Lost is evidence of devil-worship. In other words, insufficient information to draw a conclusion.


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## david johnson

'Death-bed conversion?!'

hehheh...better than no conversion...in my book.

dj


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## Ephemerid

Wagner-- though this is really a no-brainer, especially in light of _Parsifal_, his friendship with Nietzsche and the influence of Feuerbach.

I think Britten considered himself an atheist, though he was gay (buried with his partner, the tenor Peter Pears) which would've obviously put him at odds with the church of England at the time.


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## Chi_townPhilly

There are some high-quality bolts of fabric here... they merit some attention:


david johnson said:


> 'Death-bed conversion?!'
> hehheh...better than no conversion...in my book.


Christian teaching is that this is the successful path of redemption most poignantly illustrated by the repentent thief-on-the-cross. (So no disrespect was intended.)


Ephemerid said:


> Wagner-- though this is really a no-brainer, especially in light of _Parsifal_, his friendship with Nietzsche and the influence of Feuerbach.


The Wagner of the Dresden barricades (c. 1848) was an atheist, an avowed one at that. It's interesting to note that, at this time, He had recently finished _Tannhäuser_ (an opera that ends [spoiler alert] with a divine miracle), and was putting the finishing touches on _Lohengrin_ (the first of the pair of "grail operas.") These two works alone should provide an anecdotal "cautionary tale" against reading too much into subject matter when determining the viewpoint(s) of their creators. There is ample reason to believe that Wagner revised his philosophy on religion, as thoroughly as he did on other metaphysical matters, over the course of his life.

So... without getting into too vast a digression, I'm wondering... why was *Parsifal* (of all operas) cited, when discussing Wagner's atheism?? *Parsifal*, inarguably his most spiritual opera, the _Bühnenweihfestspiel_* that Wagner said would be his "work of farewell to the world," the piece whose subject matter (if not its excellent music) so bitterly disappointed a disillusioned Nietzsche, the work which (alone among Wagner masterpieces) was banned for the duration during Nazi times as smacking of docile pacifism?

*Bühnenweihfestspiel: Festival play suitable for consecration of a stage... a description that leaves even less doubt as to the spiritual element of "Parsifal."


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## Ephemerid

Oh, I brought up Parsifal because of its highly heterodox and syncretic religious elements. It may be "spiritual" in some broad sense, but not in the sense that orthodox religion in the west would approve of.


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## david johnson

Christian teaching is that this is the successful path of redemption most poignantly illustrated by the repentent thief-on-the-cross. (So no disrespect was intended.)

none taken. regarding said thief, there would have been no christians before Jesus' death...the thief himself could have already experienced john the baptist's message and baptism...noboby knows. if so, he would have been somewhat of a proto-christian.
whichever, i do believe Jesus meant it when He mentioned to the dying prisoner that they would be together in paradise.

dj


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## World Violist

Brahms was agnostic. Some are put off from this by the fact that he wrote the highly regarded "German Requiem," but, even though he read the Bible often enough, he did not follow any religions. He and many others substituted music as their religion, which isn't so impractical once you think of it. You take composers like Bach and Mozart and Beethoven, and it's like immersing oneself in a sea of the most pure truths written by anyone, the incorruptible essence of all things, as seen by the Romantics. This is exactly why many musicians after about 1800 or so were atheist or agnostic.


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## Edward Elgar

Religion is an idea and we can never be certain that there is an afterlife,gods,e.t.c.
Our reality is only assimilated through our senses, and therefore music is my religion.
It's one of the few things I know for certain to exist!

With regards to agnostic/athiest composers working with religion, I can understand that the philosophy of religion alone would inspire good compositions, such is its eclectic and visual ideas. After all, the good composer will try to get the best sound possible from a variety of different sources of inspiration.


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## G-string

hmm some interesting points edward, but if your senses are your religion then presumably everything you ever have and ever will experieance is your religion... so basically what you are trying to say is your life is your religion...


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## World Violist

One's life can heavily decide one's religious persuasion, and so can history. If one undergoes some sort of trauma set upon him by, say, a Christian or Buddhist, then that person may be disillusioned by that religion, and, indeed, become prejudiced against said religion. Look at what happened after 9/11. Many Americans took it to mean that all Muslims are terrorists, when that is the most untrue and horrifying statement I've ever encountered. But, of course, that's what happens...


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## BuddhaBandit

This is a fascinating thread, especially because I had not really considered the religious orientation of composers before (I'm a works, not life, kind of guy). As for me, was born Jewish and confirmed but recently have started studying Zen/Mahayana Buddhism (hence the first part of my moniker) after reading many of the '50s Beat literature. This semi-conversion has had a huge impact on my piano work (I mainly improvise and compose), as it has made my inmprovs more harmonious, balanced, and Zen-like. So, indeed, I agree with World Violist that one's religion or, in my case, theological philosophy, has a huge impact on one's creative side.


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## Edward Elgar

G-string said:


> hmm some interesting points edward, but if your senses are your religion then presumably everything you ever have and ever will experieance is your religion... so basically what you are trying to say is your life is your religion...


No - my sensory experiences are my reality, but few of them interest or inspire me at the same time as music does. Sorry - I didn't make myself clear.


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## Yagan Kiely

> 'm not so certain, but with Richard Strauss' Thus Spake Zarathustra being inspired by Nietzsche, I imagine he was at least non-religious.


Commentary from pamphlet of a CD cover of Strauss' complete orchestral works conducted by Rudolf Kempe:

"When he turned to Zarathustra, Strauss had no intention whatever of composing his own commentary on Nietzsche's controversial 'Superman' doctrine. His doubting contemporaries realised before long that is was nothing to do with 'philosophy set to music'. In fact he had not recreated in sound that pathologically exaggerated image of creation, so suspect to Christians and Wagnerians; he had only taken the lyrical, ode-like content of Zarathustra's vivid language as the starting point for his tone Poem."


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## Rondo

One thing I've always thought about is how religious conductors interpret works with religious themes (ie _Missa Solemnis_, Mahler's 2nd, etc...) as compared to non-religious (or less-devoted) conductors.


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