# Age drift from matters of the "heart" to the "head"...



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Discuss this quote, misattributed to former British Prime Minister Winston Churchill -

_If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain. _

& here are other variations on this quote, the implication being that as you get older, you get more logical or rational (etc.) in relation to politics (& maybe life in general, with more experience?) -

_Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains.

Show me a young conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.

If you are not a socialist by the time you are 25, you have no heart. If you are still a socialist by the time you are 35, you have no head_

Please discuss the gist of these in relation to your experiences, & of those you know, and other things.

Does this idea generally hold water?...

Source at wikiquote -

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Just read about conservatives having less brains (IQ) than liberals. This funnily seems to contradict the assertion _'If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain_'.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

What Churchill must mean is that people become more conservative as they become more interested (in the old sense, not in the intellectual sense) in the status quo, which ideally happens as they age.

In my case, I've become more liberal over the past decade. In the 2000 elections, I was genuinely undecided about whether to vote for Bush or Gore. Even in 2008 I liked McCain very well until Palin came on board.

But now I've moved so far left that I'm more likely to vote for a Communist Party candidate than for a Republican Party candidate. Not that I believe in communism, but I have come to believe very fervently that the concentration of political power in the hands of (some of) the wealthy has gone _way_ too far. Both parties are to blame, and the Democrats in practice are almost as bad as the Republicans - but I now believe that the he Republican Party is mostly indifferent to the interests of the United States and of the majority of its citizens, and that its _primary_ goal is the enrichment and empowerment of the Party's elite through faux-populist appeals to nationalism and religion; that has been true for at least 80 years, but over the past 30 years the Democrats have become too implicated to resist effectively, and a more radical party is needed for the people to take back some of the power.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

It doesn't necessarily have to be political - perhaps it could also mean that people start off a bit wild (rebellious son intentionally pisses off staid father) and then turn reactionary (rebellious son morphs into finger-wagging father, just like his father). In the political sense perhaps old Winston was trying to mock his own Tory to Liberal crossing of the Commons floor in 1904 when he was about 28?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Sid, I think you're right; it's normal for young people to be fired with emotion, but usually older people end up moderated by practical experience. Applying it to politics is a stretch, but it's still a fun quote. 

Looking at my political views, they haven't changed much, so the question is, do I have a heart or a head? I'm off to see the Wizard.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

To hell with Churchill. He just wanted to hold on to the age of imperialism and oppression.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Utterly ludicrous quote.

Many people don't like change. Many older people dislike change more than younger people, because they've seen more of it and want less of it in the future.

Many people _also_ like to consider themselves intelligent. So, guess what, it doesn't matter who you are, you're going to think your political views are intelligent. A 35 year old communist, a 35 year old marxist, a 35 year old socialist, a 35 year old liberal, a 35 year old conservative, a 35 year old theocrat, a 35 year old fascist - _none_ of them are going to concede that their position is brainless, are they?!

I really detest these kinds of pithy quotations, especially as they have such currency on the internet being passed around as statuses and image macros, when they actually say **** all. Can the insanely complex political system be reduced to a one sentence dichotomy? Of course it can't.

I _will_ say however that anyone who is socially conservative at any age is a moralising prick with no heart!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

starthrower said:


> To hell with Churchill. He just wanted to hold on to the age of imperialism and oppression.


 That is a pretty good fit with what 'conservatism' used to mean. Hold on to what you know works, make any changes with consideration, caution and incrementally if possible. The saying was "Look before you leap", with the unstated no-leaping result. It's interesting that 'liberalism' didn't mean the opposite of that.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

To Churchill's credit, moving more slowly and cautiously might have meant less chaos, bloodshed, and suffering for those who were loosed from British rule rather suddenly.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

science said:


> But now I've moved so far left that I'm more likely to vote for a Communist Party candidate than for a Republican Party candidate. Not that I believe in communism, but I have come to believe very fervently that the concentration of political power in the hands of (some of) the wealthy has gone _way_ too far. Both parties are to blame, and the Democrats in practice are almost as bad as the Republicans - but I now believe that the he Republican Party is mostly indifferent to the interests of the United States and of the majority of its citizens, and that its _primary_ goal is the enrichment and empowerment of the Party's elite through faux-populist appeals to nationalism and religion; that has been true for at least 80 years, but over the past 30 years the Democrats have become too implicated to resist effectively, and a more radical party is needed for the people to take back some of the power.


It seems the time has come that Republicans are now stupid enough to admit their biases. Here's what Romney said to CNN:

"I'm not concerned about the very poor. We have a safety net there. If it needs repair, I'll fix it. I'm not concerned about the very rich, they're doing just fine. I'm concerned about the very heart of America, the 90 percent, 95 percent of Americans who right now are struggling."

Of course, what that means is he's not concerned about _changing_ the lives of the rich or poor, for better or worse. So what he wants to do is help 90-95% of Americans by doing _nothing_ to the status quo. Good luck with that.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I read a study that said men often become more empathetic as they age whereas the reverse can be true for women. Maybe there's hope for me yet, beyond unfeeling politeness, hormones, and childish neediness.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I wonder if there's a musical analogy? 

"If you don't like Tchaikovsky when you're young, you have no heard; if you don't like Bartok when you're old, you have no head." 

Or something like that....


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

science said:


> I wonder if there's a musical analogy?
> 
> "If you don't like Tchaikovsky when you're young, you have no heard; if you don't like Bartok when you're old, you have no head."
> 
> Or something like that....


I think that's a better analogy. Although I didn't like Tchaikovsky when I was young. But I do like him now. Maybe that means I'm young at heart. And I think Bartok's cool, so it looks like the gray matter's OK.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Sid James said:


> _If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain. _
> 
> _Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains.
> 
> ...





Polednice said:


> I really detest these kinds of pithy quotations, especially as they have such currency on the internet being passed around as statuses and image macros, when they actually say **** all.


"Never trust anyone over 30."

:devil:

trollin'


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I maybe should have emphasised that it isn't proven that Churchill actually said the first quote I put in my OP. It's been misattributed (or wrongly attributed) as I said. But who said it isn't the point.

For my own story, I was confused about where I was politically when I was younger. Now I'm firmly in the centre, leaning "left" a bit. I'm more for common sense and logic and against ideology and dogma, which I will question, no matter what kind.

I think apathy has set in for me a bit as well now, not uncommon in today's depoliticised world. More people care today about their immediate friends and family, stuff like that, than with politics, esp. at national level - anything away from state or local levels - and global politics.

It might work with music too. In terms of me coming full circle to things I got into when I was young, then dropped for whatever reason, and now I've come back to them later in life. Composers like Saint-Saens, Rodrigo and J.S. Bach are three like that. In the middle what changed is that I judged these composers or misread them. Now I've gone back to more impartial way of seeing them.

An old friend of mine, now gone, said that people age in two ways. One is to get mellower the other is to become more and more cantankerous and "difficult." It's too generalized but I think he had a fair point.

Other thing is that psychological studies of development of the brain (cognition, reasoning, etc.) show that a male's brain fully matures only at 25. I don't know what it is for the ladies but I'd guess they mature earlier. An acquaintance who studied this field told me this in passing.

Another thing is that a lot of young people here - eg. under 25's - are becoming bankrupt. It's to do with easy access to credit cards and signing up to mobile phone plans, etc. that they can't afford. It appears that a good deal of young people cannot do basic budgeting. I don't know what studying trigonometry or stuff like that in high school is of much use if you are broke by not being able to do the basics that were common sense for previous generations.

& to finish, the byline to a new movie out in the cinemas here now is "Everyone gets old. Not everyone grows up." The film is called _Young Adult _and it stars Charlize Theron...


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm only 21, but my political history is as follows: until I was about 17, I felt I was a conservative, and supported my views with twisted or poorly understood logic, then I accepted my sexuality and signed up to the gay agenda and am now attempting to homosexualise all mankind.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I sometimes think I have a conservative heart and a liberal head. Mixed up in my own little bourgeois way.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I'm too disillusioned with society to be either of those at any age. It would be wrong to say that I don't care, I just don't think anyone has found the right path yet. In terms of voting I vote for smaller parties (that don't reek of Nazism) in the hope of shaking things up a little; it's never going to happen but I do it anyway.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Crudblud said:


> I'm too disillusioned with society to be either of those at any age. It would be wrong to say that I don't care, I just don't think anyone has found the right path yet. In terms of voting I vote for smaller parties (that don't reek of Nazism) in the hope of shaking things up a little; it's never going to happen but I do it anyway.


Even the US HoR has a Progressive Caucus. It is mostly a minor irritant for the main body - but it's there.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Meaghan said:


> "Never trust anyone over 30."
> 
> :devil:
> 
> trollin'


Specifically for women, the guideline should be: Never trust a man over 11 and under 80. The men outside that range you can probably whup.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

OWS needs to turn violent! Rich people aren't going to get nicer unless we hold a gun to their head.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

that quote wrongly implies conservatives use their brains


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

I'm for 70 now, but I always detested the right, despised the left and never believe in the center.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I was partly wrong regarding what I said below. Cleared it up with my "source." Both males and females brains, in terms of cognitive functions, become mature fully at the age of 25. There is no difference between the sexes on this...



Sid James said:


> ...
> Other thing is that psychological studies of development of the brain (cognition, reasoning, etc.) show that a male's brain fully matures only at 25. I don't know what it is for the ladies but I'd guess they mature earlier. An acquaintance who studied this field told me this in passing...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Polednice said:


> I'm only 21, but my political history is as follows: until I was about 17, I felt I was a conservative, and supported my views with twisted or poorly understood logic, then I accepted my sexuality and signed up to the gay agenda ...


I can understand that. The climate when we were at school was basically homophobic. But we didn't physically act on it or anything (eg. do "gay bashing"). Studies of Australian schools show, in terms of student attitudes, there is still a lot of homophobia around. Well I heard this survey 5 or so years ago saying that. I wonder if things have changed? But I'm sure that passing on attitudes of an inclusive and tolerant society is what teachers do in practice, in terms of teaching a very wide variety of students. "The system" and attitudes within it, however, is not always as flexible as one would like (religious schools here can still not employ teachers if they are gay, and I think there have been a case or two of teachers being fired for "coming out."). But I don't want to talk about the gay issues here too much, just saying that how your attitude changed is probably the norm, I think most people here become more open-minded about these issues as they get older, get out into the wider world, etc...


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Sid James said:


> I was partly wrong regarding what I said below. Cleared it up with my "source." Both males and females brains, in terms of cognitive functions, become mature fully at the age of 25. There is no difference between the sexes on this...


What exactly was the definition of "mature" in that context anyway? After all, the brain is always changing, and it's not that long after 25 that cognitive decline begins to set in.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^I'm not a psychologist, but an acquaintance who studied in the field told me this. What I wrote is based on research, so I'd say more factual than conjecture. Although in psychology as in any other discipline, there will be debates (often about the details).

I can't answer your question in regards to what is the exact meaning of "mature," this is not my area. THIS wikipedia article on cognitive development, with leaning on cognitive development from childhood to adulthood, explains a bit (I think?). Piaget's theory - which is now quite old - is in a table, his steps to maturity of cognition.

Erik Erikson is also mentioned, who was big in this field. He puts another "slant" on the whole thing, he's more focussed on aspects of social development and socialisation, whereas Piaget was more on things like problem solving...


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Ginkgo biloba.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

starthrower said:


> To hell with Churchill. He just wanted to hold on to the age of imperialism and oppression.


Give me a break do!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sid James said:


> ^^I'm not a psychologist, but an acquaintance who studied in the field told me this. What I wrote is based on research, so I'd say more factual than conjecture. Although in psychology as in any other discipline, there will be debates (often about the details).
> 
> I can't answer your question in regards to what is the exact meaning of "mature," this is not my area. THIS wikipedia article on cognitive development, with leaning on cognitive development from childhood to adulthood, explains a bit (I think?). Piaget's theory - which is now quite old - is in a table, his steps to maturity of cognition.
> 
> Erik Erikson is also mentioned, who was big in this field. He puts another "slant" on the whole thing, he's more focussed on aspects of social development and socialisation, whereas Piaget was more on things like problem solving...


Say what was that?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Polednice said:


> I'm only 21, but my political history is as follows: until I was about 17, I felt I was a conservative, and supported my views with twisted or poorly understood logic, then I accepted my sexuality and signed up to the gay agenda and am now attempting to homosexualise all mankind.


Hey Poley, disappointed in you. Thought you'd be one of the last people on here to be sexist.

What about us women? I need you to support homosexualision of all _woman_kind as well. :devil:


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Hey Poley, disappointed in you. Thought you'd be one of the last people on here to be sexist.
> 
> What about us women? I need you to support homosexualision of all _woman_kind as well. :devil:


I will defend _Poley_ by pointing out that 'mankind' is an inclusive term. We men are aware that a woman is essentially a man without the damaged chromosome.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Yeah. Wo-man.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Woe-man.

Because they fill me with woe.

ALL I WANT IS A HAREM
BUT THE THOUGHT OF IT SCARES 'EM
I BUY BRAS AND I WEAR THEM
I TRY MY BEST NOT TO TEAR THEM

Believe in yourself and you too can write terrible lyrics like this!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

To finally clear up what I said about the "full" maturation of the brain by age 25, that means physical maturation. Eg. growth of the brain itself. So my references to cognitive/social development earlier was way off. Shows I should not do the hearsay thing, say what others I know say to me, eg. the person in psychology. They're the "experts," I'm not. So that's all I'll say about this now...


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Discuss this quote, misattributed to former British Prime Minister Winston Churchill -
> 
> _If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain. _
> 
> ...


I would say that in some ways I'm a passable liberal when it comes to politics. When it comes to music, I'm quite the reactionary, as are most of we classical fans who worship music older than 50 years, even those who like avant gard music. I don't know how this applies to music, if it applies, and if so, what it says about me. I'm clearly under 30. I wouldn't consider myself a genuinely heartfelt person all the time, but I try to mimic it functionally so it serves keep myself up to my own imposed standards I probably fearfully accepted as a child. That's a certain kind of liberalism I suppose, but maybe its not genuine. I would like to be more genuine.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

I think we have to tread lightly on things such as this. Mind you, I've seen too many people use this quote as some sort of justification, when in reality the culture of the conservatives is a bit different now than it was 40s, especially crossing oceans. Not to mention, this quote does not come from Winston Churchill, and the date may be even earlier. Conservative and Liberal are far from static terms and the ideologies continue to shift through history.


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