# My love/hate relationship with Star Wars



## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

I know I have already rolled some eyes by bringing up the most cliched film score in existence, but hear me out. How might our upbringing determine how much we like a certain piece of music? If we listen to it ad nauseum as kids are we less likely to enjoy it as adults? 

I had the opposite experience with the Star Wars score. As a kid I enjoyed it, but overall, I didn't pay much attention to it or the films themselves, which have admittedly never done much for me. And as I got older I began to appreciate the score even less. I started to believe the usual "it's just knock-off classical music; John Williams wouldn't have made his millions without Holst and Korngold to imitate." Paired with my general indifference to the films themselves, I basically forgot the score existed as a young adult. 

In the summer of 2016, when I was working a summer music festival as a trumpet intern, one of our assigned orchestral pieces was the Star Wars Suite, since the theme for that week was film music. Oh great, we get to play this over-commercialized crowd-pleaser. Why not Korngold or Herrmann, someone whose film scores actually sound like classical music? But when we actually started rehearsing it, I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I absolutely loved it; it was like hearing it all again for the first time. And I was hearing it on purely musical grounds. There was no nostalgia involved, no memories of seeing Star Wars in a theater for me to go back to, or mental images of on-screen action because it had been years since I had even seen a prequel film. I was enjoying the music for what it was. Overall it might have been the single most enjoyable and rewarding experience I've ever had in an orchestra, even after the tons of standard orchestra repertoire I've performed. 
Since then my perspective about Star Wars, and film music in general, has changed a lot. The fact that it was commercially written does not diminish the work's artistic value, and I don't know why it should. It's grand, optimistic, and ecstatic, and frankly, it sounds like the composer was living in an era when mankind was learning more and more about space, and was excited about what might be out there. Isn't that what was happening? Pioneer 10, Voyager 1 & 2, the beginnings of the Space Shuttle program, the Apollo program still fresh in everyone's memory. I can hear the excitement of all that in the score. It's like the late 70s represented in music.

So my point is, when I returned to the Star Wars score without nostalgia attached, I came away with a much different opinion of it than I might have if I had grown up on the Star Wars franchise like a lot of people seem to have been. When people generally say they dislike the score or find it corny, I wonder how much of that is actual dislike, or simply a result of having heard it ad nauseum as a kid, and now it seems cheesy. Has anyone had a similar experience with another work?

As a side note, this isn't a John Williams foot-kissing thing. Star Wars didn't magically become my favorite orchestral work, and it isn't even my favorite film score. I just think there's more to it than simply commercial success, and I wonder if I'm a complete idiot for thinking highly of a very cliched work.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I have the same view of his Superman score (which is actually quite similar in terms of thematic material/orchestration). I did like it as a kid and in general, but it took a live performance by the Halle Orchestra to really make me appreciate it as a solid piece of music. 
People can say what they want about it, but from a purely musical point of view it is the real deal.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

What matters is whether it's effective as a soundtrack to the movie, not how it compares to classical music or how much of a knock-off it is. It's a soundtrack with memorable themes and one that greatly supports the movie. It's partially responsible for the succes that Star Wars was/is. People can dislike it all they want, perhaps it is trash from a classical perspective, who cares, I will like its themes forever as they are completely intertwined with the movies and how much I liked them as a kid (in fact I still do).


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I just remember that back when the first film came out, either as an inspired piece of marketing, or as an adjunct to its suddenly burgeoning and unexpected popularity, they released to radio stations an air-play length version of the main theme played by the LSO (which probably did the soundtrack). Which I heard many times on the radio before seeing the film -- and actually liked, even recognizing that it was "film music." I've always thought that John Williams was a well-trained musician who was extraordinaily good at what he does. I know he has also written "serious" compositions, but have hear none of them.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

I think many younger people who are fans of John Williams are probably unaware of the grand old film scores from the 30s and 40s. I'm thinking of composers like Steiner, Korngold, Waxman, and Alfred Newman. Williams, and Star Wars in general, were able to exploit a hunger that had arisen for this kind of old-fashioned adventurous atmosphere that had developed by the mid 70s when Hollywood was so dreary. Williams music was unlike anything they had ever heard; but to me (i. e., someone who has seen hundreds of golden age movies) it's just refashioned Korngold and Steiner.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think it may be difficult for anybody too young to have seen the opening sequence of the first Star Wars movie 40 years ago to realize just how overwhelming it seemed. Nothing like this had ever been seen before, and John Williams' score served the action perfectly. This was truly EPIC! (watch full-screen, volume up)


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I don't love it either, it just feels superficial to my ears and lacking in a depth that resonates with me.


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

I find the disdain which some have for film scores to be perplexing. As a 14 year old kid when I bought my first stereo, I asked my dad if I could take his RCA box set of records up to my room. One of my favorite pieces was Richard Strauss' "Don Juan". To me, this was (and still is) about as visual a musical piece as I had ever heard.....perfect for the imagined Errol Flynn movie I would see in my mind as I listened.
Much of the score of a film is scene specific in nature, but the major themes of movies can, and often do, stand on their own. John Williams "Star Wars" themes are wonderful. Leia's theme and Yoda's theme are both beautiful. The theme to "Super Man", mentioned above, is also excellent. For me, watching Jan Hoffman skating to it for his 1980 Olympic short program made it come alive. Jerry Goldsmith's theme to "Star Trek: First Contact" is another theme which can stand on its own.
I have always enjoyed music that has a strong visual component. Good music is good music!


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

The first time I saw Star Wars was in the 1990's as a teenager. But what hooked me to the music were actually computer games - Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast and Knights of the Old Republic. After that I bought the soundtrack for the 3 original movies. Other soundtracks that had great impact on me were Conan the Barbarian from Basil Poledouris, E.T. from Williams, Alien from Goldsmith, Star Trek from Goldsmith, Planet of the Apes from Goldsmith. There is some excellent music to be found among sountracks. I wish it were made symphonies. I bet many more people would be attracted to classical music. The film music is fabulous in painting emotions and evoking atmospheres and that was the original goal of music (the Affektenlehre of Baroque)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

The Star Wars theme does indeed sound like Korngold's 'King's Row' and Holst's 'Mars' - I still think it sounds great.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

My view? This thread should really be in the non-classical music section.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> My view? This thread should really be in the non-classical music section.


If Ferneyhough belongs in the classical music section, then the score for Star Wars also belongs here. (Indeed, I think that the score for Star Wars has a much better claim.)


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^^ Enjoyable joke poking fun at all those who don't like Ferneyhough and at the way they post repeatedly that it isn't part of the tradition. :lol:


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> ^^^ Enjoyable joke poking fun at all those who don't like Ferneyhough and at the way they post repeatedly that it isn't part of the tradition. :lol:


So your rather convenient definition of classical music is broad enough to include Ferneyhough's music. which is certainly at best unconventional, but not the score to Star Wars, even though the score to Star Wars mostly makes traditional use of traditional instruments in traditional ways? (I have, of course, long since given up hoping for consistency or rational comments from people who at least claim to get or like what Ferneyhough produces.)

(Note: A joke needs to make at least enough sense to be amusing.)


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^^ Oh! You weren't joking? Sorry. 

The tradition? It is about aspiration and approach to creation; it is about influences; it is about standards and quality; it is about relevance ... among other things. I don't see why you needed to insult me. This forum becomes more and more unpleasant to post in. Some people like and value Ferneyhough's music and others find it at least valid and interesting; you don't: get over it! I will not respond further to you on this topic.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> ^^^ Oh! You weren't joking? Sorry.
> 
> The tradition? It is about aspiration and approach to creation; it is about influences; it is about standards and quality; it is about relevance ... among other things. I don't see why you needed to insult me. This forum becomes more and more unpleasant to post in. Some people like and value Ferneyhough's music and others find it at least valid and interesting; you don't: get over it! I will not respond further to you on this topic.


Lindsey Stirling would like a word with you.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

She's got my number.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> She's got my number.


So do I, metaphorically speaking.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^^ You think? You might have one of them.


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## Steve Mc (Jun 14, 2018)

In response to the OP, you are most certainly not an idiot! Williams is certainly valid as a composer within the classical tradition, with especial mastery in melody and orchestration.

It is true, though, that the original Star Wars, brilliant as it is, is one of his more derivative works (with the exception of the magnificent Princess Leia's Theme). I actually prefer the second score in the cycle _The Empire Strikes Back_


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

My Star Wars fan credentials: I have been to each movie on opening since the beginning. College chums and I took a day off just to stand in line to see Episode IV. Hard to believe it's been 41 years! Anyway, that original score was sensational. The London Symphony just rocked! That film had most of the iconic themes that we associate with Star Wars. Like Steve Mc, the score for ESB was superb and probably the better film score, and added a few new distinctive themes. TESB - not so much. I felt like Williams was losing interest or originality or something. Then came Episodes I, II, III. Where was the fun? the sense of joy? even the excitement? These were dark, serious scores. Then even worse came VII and VIII - I can't think of anything from them that even comes close to anything in IV. Just last night we were watching the new Blu Ray release of Solo - it was a very nice, serviceable score, the best parts used Williams' themes. Rogue One - the movie was great (at least for me) and the score was certainly better than any of the ones outside of Episodes IV, V, VI.

Almost a year ago I conducted a Star Wars concert: music from Episodes I through VI and a bit of Rogue One. There's no question that the orchestra far preferred learning the music from the original three movies and the audience - all 4000 of them - clearly responded to the original scores the most.

Is this music overdone? Probably. There is a lot of other music he wrote that is worth a hearing. ET is overdone and Jaws, too. But the music from Dracula would be great for Halloween concerts but I've never heard it.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

eugeneonagain said:


> I have the same view of his Superman score (which is actually quite similar in terms of thematic material/orchestration). I did like it as a kid and in general, but it took a live performance by the Halle Orchestra to really make me appreciate it as a solid piece of music.
> People can say what they want about it, but from a purely musical point of view it is the real deal.


I had the same experience. I initially hated it until I heard it live. Now I carry the theme on my car's memory stick.


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## Steve Mc (Jun 14, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> Is this music overdone? Probably. .


Williams does have a tendency to overdo it sometimes, but not always. I find his scores to Close Encounters and Lincoln, for example, to be just right, as it were.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

When played well, I find SW a thrilling score that can stand on its own. Right off the bat, it establishes the sense of the epic... It means something, as in this case, when musicians like playing it, because they’re inside the score and bringing it to life. You hear things differently from within the orchestra. I think it should be obvious by now the John Williams has a tremendous emotional range and knows how to put things down on paper. And it’s not all derivative though it may have been influenced by someone like Bruckner or Mahler. Being influenced or “stealing” from other composers is not unprecedented, and there is the famous quote by Stravinsky on that very subject: “A good composer does not imitate, he steals.”  Itzhak Perlman said somewhere that Williams’ theme for Shindler’s List beautifully captures the Jewish gestalt, so I consider it real music like his writings for SW and am not a naysayer. Anything that gets too popular usually has a backlash and then people can hear at more dispassionately and objectively later to make up their minds. But it’s certainly well written even if one doesn’t like it, and it brought the epic sound of the orchestra to a younger more appreciative theater audience, and it’s still going strong as something iconic after all these years with the general public.


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## Judas Priest Fan (Apr 27, 2018)

I bought the sound track to The Empire Strikes Back when it came out on CD, even though I was exclusively a Metal/Rock fan at the time.

I still have that CD and love it! 

I also got a copy of the OST from the latest Star Wars film, because someone highly recommended it; but I just can´t get myself to listen to it; probably because after the main theme, it drifts off into something I don´t know.

Stupid reason, I know.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I like John Williams' music, particularly Star Wars. I think its still one if the most exciting in the genre. Film music built upon older classical music, so its no big deal if he's derivative. When Dmitri Tiomkin won an Oscar, he started by thanking all the dead composers for providing him with inspiration for his work. I see it less as ripping off and more as a kind of homage. 

Gone too are the days when composers had to avoid film music for fear of being labelled lowbrow. The Europeans in America illustrate the point. Korngold couldn't avoid the sting of critics (eg. "more corn than gold") almost ruining his reputation as a serious composer. Schoenberg approached the studios but was turned down while Stravinsky cannily avoided them despite invitations.

There have been pieces which I judged to be kind of lowbrow and came to appreciate more later. Saint-Saens' Organ Symphony readily comes to mind.


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## Texas Chain Saw Mazurka (Nov 1, 2009)

Judas Priest Fan said:


> I also got a copy of the OST from the latest Star Wars film, because someone highly recommended it; but I just can´t get myself to listen to it; probably because after the main theme, it drifts off into something I don´t know.
> 
> Stupid reason, I know.


When I saw Episode 7, I walked out of the theater disappointed that John Williams hadn't done the score, and curious as to who he had passed the baton to. But apparently it really was John Williams after all. I can't remember a single bit of it. I really enjoyed his music for the prequels, though.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

If we look at the movies in sets of 3, as they were originally released, I find some correlation between my impression of the scores and the films themselves. I loved the original 3 (forgiving the Ewoks and overlooking the fact that the second and third movies were really one movie rather awkwardly cut into two). The second set (theoretically earlier based on the timeline of the story) were dreadful as films, and the music, although still mostly quite good seemed to take a bit of a nosedive along with the films (although not nearly as badly). The newest set of three (not yet complete), were better as movies than the second set, but the music seemed mostly more serviceable than inspired or inspiring. (Part of the problem with the second set seems to be that George Lucas just didn't really know what he was doing after all. In the first set, he had to compromise and deal with a lot of other people, which helped quite a bit. For the second set, he had all the money he could want and took full control, listening to no one, and it shows. (It turns out that his narrative sense just isn't all that good, and as a director he really doesn't like people and seemed to think that all he needed was some performance in the can and he would just do everything else in post-production. Only Ewan McGregor mostly survives this hasty and off-handed approach.) But the music, much like the series itself, seems to be surviving on automatic pilot. (From other films, it is clear that Williams himself has not lost his touch, but perhaps he isn't feeling very inspired by the films themselves and is doing them more out of a sense of obligation than interest.)


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Texas Chain Saw Mazurka said:


> When I saw Episode 7, I walked out of the theater disappointed that John Williams hadn't done the score, and curious as to who he had passed the baton to. But apparently it really was John Williams after all. I can't remember a single bit of it. I really enjoyed his music for the prequels, though.


It may be worth listening to the music by itself. I had a similar experience, but after listening to the soundtrack alone and watching the movie a bit more, I gained a better appreciation for the soundtrack. Rey's Theme and March of the Resistance are two of the winners from The Force Awakens.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

bharbeke said:


> It may be worth listening to the music by itself. I had a similar experience, but after listening to the soundtrack alone and watching the movie a bit more, I gained a better appreciation for the soundtrack. Rey's Theme and March of the Resistance are two of the winners from The Force Awakens.


I couldn't agree more. The Force Awaken as a soundtrack is more seamless than the first trilogy. The new leitmotifs are mellower and more refined. It only becomes a little bit awkward when the old leitmotifs inevitably returns since they are much more on-your-face.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Kiki said:


> I couldn't agree more. The Force Awaken as a soundtrack is more seamless than the first trilogy. The new leitmotifs are mellower and more refined. It only becomes a little bit awkward when the old leitmotifs inevitably returns since they are much more on-your-face.


It is in part the over-homogenous blandness of the newer scores that fails to attract or sustain my attention. That I listen to them at all is substantially a tribute to my fondness for what came before.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

JAS said:


> It is in part the over-homogenous blandness of the newer scores that fails to attract or sustain my attention. That I listen to them at all is substantially a tribute to my fondness for what came before.


Interesting to hear your view.

Oh if I'm allowed to do a bit of moaning….. The soundtracks of the original trilogy have got two versions for each film, a shortened suite and a complete soundtrack. The suite tends to be a more musical arrangement to listen to, while the complete soundtrack is more, to use a nice word, narrative. Honestly I find the suites more engaging to listen to as music with no picture.

The Force Awaken and The Last Jedi have got only the complete soundtrack releases. They are again, narrative in nature. Perhaps not everybody's cup of tea, although I like The Force Awaken complete soundtrack more than the other complete soundtracks. I even bought the hologram LP set in addition to the hi-res download. :lol:


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## endelbendel (Jul 7, 2018)

Put the visuals aside and you can hear that this music copies Bruckner.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Kiki said:


> Oh if I'm allowed to do a bit of moaning….. The soundtracks of the original trilogy have got two versions for each film, a shortened suite and a complete soundtrack.


I think there may be more than two.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

JAS said:


> I think there may be more than two.


Indeed....


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