# Scarlatti sonatas



## maria barbara

Just one question :

Is it possible, listening to a Scarlatti sonata, to guess its Kirkpatrick number ?


----------



## Headphone Hermit

you might find a bookie who'd give you 555 to 1 for a correct guess


----------



## maria barbara

you mean there's no chronological evolution in the sonatas ? I think there is...


----------



## PetrB

maria barbara said:


> you mean there's no chronological evolution in the sonatas ? I think there is...


There are several sets of Scarlatti Sonata numberings:

Carl Czenry *[Cz]* 
Alessandro Longo *(1906) [L]* 
Ralph Kirkpatrick *(1953) [K]*
Giorgio Pestelli *(1967) [P]*.

Not knowing about the Czerny, but the other three are each, for their time, scholarly guesses as to the order of their composition.

In the 1950's - through the late 60's at least, Kirkpatrick, with a network he established of other scholars, pianists, musicologists, etc. "unearthed" many a sonata found in copy in private or monastic library, etc. The later the musicologist, the more pieces were known than previously.

So, no you won't guess at the numbers well.

If highly learned musicologists don't readily come up with the same ordering based upon their very well-educated best guesses....


----------



## maria barbara

Dear PetrB
I've never heard about Czerny, Longo is not reasonable, and Pestelli (based on "style") is a joke. Only Kirkpatrick stands out, and there are good indications showing that his chronological classification holds water. A careful study of the sonatas shows different periods, or fashions, which allow to guess the approximate K number...


----------



## PetrB

maria barbara said:


> Dear PetrB
> I've never heard about Czerny, Longo is not reasonable, and Pestelli (based on "style") is a joke. Only Kirkpatrick stands out, and there are good indications showing that his chronological classification holds water. A careful study of the sonatas shows different periods, or fashions, which allow to guess the approximate K number...


I tend to agree, as do most of those who care, that the Kirkpatrick numberings are the 'best scholarly guess' as to the chronology of the Scarlatti Sonatas. I think most people give the most credibility to the K numberings.

He did 'pair up' several, whether thinking they were written in that order or more empirically deciding those paired just made 'a good musical set,' I do not know.

But without a profoundly deep familiarity with them _all,_ including a musicologist / scholar's familiarity, I doubt if one could fine-tune guess any one of those within one of those three general periods as having been written before another.


----------



## maria barbara

Dear PetrB,
Kirkpatrick's pairing of sonatas is now widely considered as an error by musicologists.
As to my initial question, I'm affraid I have come to the deep familiarity you're mentioning. And if I can't guess the precise K number of an unknown sonata, I can at least easily find which of the 16 books of sonatas it belongs to.


----------



## PetrB

maria barbara said:


> Dear PetrB,
> Kirkpatrick's pairing of sonatas is now widely considered as an error by musicologists.
> As to my initial question, I'm affraid I have come to the deep familiarity you're mentioning. And if I can't guess the precise K number of an unknown sonata, I can at least easily find which of the 16 books of sonatas it belongs to.


As a pianist, I've learned a few, and read through the most commonly owned of the Kirkpatrick two-volume set (decades ago). I think it takes quite a lot of living with, and listening, to get to where you are with them, though there is nothing superhuman about it, it does require a real love, fascination and a lot of time with them, repeated. While that ability is of some interest, that, and the fare, gets you on the bus


----------



## maria barbara

Thanks for the bus. My point is not to be superhuman, only to show the musicologists that there are other interesting points than the ones they study. I dont know much about music, so I made a purely structural study of the sonatas, which gives clues about Scarlatti's creation : after all, what else is interesting ? And I found that he used certain strategies at certain times and others at other times, which makes possible the game I proposed. But strangely enough, when you talk structure to musicians, they tend to become deaf... Are you one of these ?


----------



## Headphone Hermit

maria barbara said:


> A careful study of the sonatas shows different periods, or fashions, which allow to guess the approximate K number...


so, if you 'know' the answer to the question, why post the question?


----------



## Lukecash12

maria barbara said:


> Just one question :
> 
> Is it possible, listening to a Scarlatti sonata, to guess its Kirkpatrick number ?


It is if you have some favorites. I could probably recognize a dozen or so but there are just so many of them. When I hear 140 and 141 (especially 141, I'm sure a lot of Scarlatti fans can recognize 141) I can always recognize them because they are sonatas that I prefer to play:


----------



## maria barbara

Sure, we all know some of them, and by the way, always the same. Here the list of the 10 most recorded sonatas, the ones every Scarlattian knows by heart : 87, 481, 9, 159, 380, 32, 492, 69, 141 and 193, but this is not the game. My question refers to an unknown sonata. Is it possible to deduce from its inner structure (repetitions, cuts, improvisations) its K number ? That's the game. And the answer is : yes, or not far from it.


----------



## maria barbara

and thanks for the Vartolo's adventurous interpretation (specially 140), which I ignored. For 141, Martha Argerich goes crazy :


----------



## Lukecash12

maria barbara said:


> Sure, we all know some of them, and by the way, always the same. Here the list of the 10 most recorded sonatas, the ones every Scarlattian knows by heart : 87, 481, 9, 159, 380, 32, 492, 69, 141 and 193, but this is not the game. My question refers to an unknown sonata. Is it possible to deduce from its inner structure (repetitions, cuts, improvisations) its K number ? That's the game. And the answer is : yes, or not far from it.


Ok, try us then. Supply a recording without the number and we'll see who can pin the tail on the donkey.


----------



## maria barbara

excellent idea : I'll work on it tomorrow.


----------



## maria barbara

I know which ones I want to submit but there's a problem : I can't send a youtube video, because the K number will appear, and I don't see any possibility to send an audio file : could anybody help ?


----------



## maria barbara

sorry folks, but I can't think of a way to send you an audio file without the K number on it ! Internet has its limitations. All I can do is show you how it works, if you're really interested.


----------

