# J.S. Bach's Orchestral Suites



## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

Why didn't J.S. Bach provide tempo designations for the movements in his four *orchestral suites* BWV 1066–1069?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Tempo indications are rare in baroque suites. Most keyboard suites have either a tempo indication or a dance type, not both. Some movements have nothing at all (e.g. most preludes and fugues from the WTC)

Apparently people back then knew the common tempo (range) for the dance movements. There is some information by baroque writers like Mattheson. E.g. I think a passepied was like a menuet, but faster, something noted in 3/8 would usually have to be played "lighter" and faster than something in 3/4 etc. There are some gigues notated in 6/16 in keyboard suites indicating an even faster tempo and so on.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

I have never obviously played an orchestral suite not being 15 people at once.I have played Bach suites and movements for piano and other solo instruments and never seen an Italian tempo mark.
But it's understood the tempo of the dance.Although some play an Allemande moderate others very fast but the Courante always moderate and the Sarabande always super slow,minuet moderate,gigue fast etc.... and stuff like Bourree or Louree can be up in the air but usually fast


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

The eminent Bach scholar Robert Marshall published a paper that sheds light on the importance of _tempo ordinario_ to a proper historical understanding of tempo in Bach's music.



https://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1221&context=ppr


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Composers often used tempo's and time signatures they found pleasing at the time often on momentary feeling and we often overread there significance to often.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> The eminent Bach scholar Robert Marshall published a paper that sheds light on the importance of _tempo ordinario_ to a proper historical understanding of tempo in Bach's music.
> 
> 
> 
> https://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1221&context=ppr


Highly interesting and often quite plausible! It seems a pretty good guide for anything without tempo indication like most WTK or many vocal pieces although I think the dances would have to be considered separately, or at least merit additional thought. I doubt that an "ordinary" menuet and and ordinary sarabande in 3/4 should both go at the same tempo of about 80 for quarters; this seems obviously too slow for the menuet (rather 120-160) and too fast for most sarabandes. Marshall would here certainly take into account if a menuet has mostly quarters, 8th or lots of 16th and similarly for the sarabande but I am not sure if this would be enough.

I wonder if any performers know of these ideas and accordingly played e.g. the finales of the 3rd and 6th Brandenburg considerably slower than the one of the 5th. Goebel was the first with blazing speed but in most more recent recordings both the 3/8 first movement of #4 and the finales of the string concerti are played very fast.


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## Fritzb43 (Mar 29, 2020)

I have always believed that "modern" versions of baroque works are played far too fast. Of course, I am ancient and grew up listening to over-inflated orchestras playing these works at a more sedate tempo.

As far as Bach's Suites for Orchestra go, my favorite version is Karl Ristenpart's with the Saar Chamber Orchestra.

My favorite Brandenburgs are still the first I ever heard: Szymon Goldberg with the Netherlands Chamber Orchestra.

Not the most scholarly or "authentic" versions maybe, but they have been part of me for 50 plus years. Whay can I say?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

You could try Harnoncourt! A pioneer of HIP who was never scared of a slow speed if it seemed appropriate to him. His Brandenburg set has always been a favourite for me and his 3rd Suite is a must hear.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> You could try Harnoncourt! A pioneer of HIP who was never scared of a slow speed if it seemed appropriate to him. His Brandenburg set has always been a favourite for me and his 3rd Suite is a must hear.


Note that his first sets of both the Brandenburgs and the suites from the 1960es are better and less idiosyncratic than the later sets from around 1980.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ True. And fresher.


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