# Ok guys, is there anything of this caliber in the "classical era"?



## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Im aware that alot of classical music is way more complex than what im about to post so now when we have that out of the way. Im wondering if someone has made something that resembles this in the way its structured and how strong and epic the theme is.

So, heres the track. Its from the game Terranigma that came out on SNES in 1995/6.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Not sure about your comparison. That music sounds more like a typical Japanese pop song from the 1980s.

By the way 'a lot' is not one word.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

By the way Kajmanen ... welcome to the Forum. New members are our life blood. Thanks for posting.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Kajmanen said:


> I find alot, not all, of classical music is often more pompous, overly noble and sometimes it has alot of wankery in it


that is your problem, as you might guess... you also have to learn more about music before talking it.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> that is your problem, as you might guess... you also have to learn more about music before talking it.


yes, and the more you learn, the more you decide keep silent... :lol:


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Tell me what you think is so extraordinary about the Terranigma piece and I'll see if I can provide an answer.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Upon a quick listen and little in-depth eval of the piece, it sounds like it is being played on artificial instruments (such as a synthesizer) and the elicitation tends to be "robotically/inhumanly" and simplistically articulated without individuation and little (if any) personal conviction to a part, thus subverting most of the emotion that might be possible otherwise. The Classical era of course did not have synthesizers so, no, you will not find anything that "sounds" particularly similar but there are way more incredible uses of such music than one finds in this piece (which is really bad imo).


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Off the top of my head I would recommend Nyman's Piano Concerto, which is _vaguely_ similar in its sweep and fluctuating structure, though sounds completely different because it is using real instruments that are being articulated and conveyed with emotion, and also the piece is much more full, colorful, beautiful and vibrant (due to this). Due to its far more creative and extensive development it also has a much greater sense of epic sweep, and in accumulating a winding majesty, sense of wonder, poetry and mystery/suspense, is much more compelling and emotional.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Kajmanen, you have found something you like, that speaks to you, that gets your blood moving. Music, in my experience, has that power. Its one of the greatest indulgences there is.

Pursue what ever music you like, for what ever reasons you like it, as passionately as possible. You may find as you go along that your tastes change, which is fun too. I don't like the cigars I started with years ago.

Folks who feel their tastes are "right" will tell you that the closer your tastes move towards theirs, the more you are maturing. Take their advice seriously, but also with a little salt. Follow your own interests, your own passions, while staying open to trying out stuff when you can, and if there is any validity to some music being intrinsically "better" or "more rewarding" I am confident you will find it and enjoy it.

To my ears, the piece you indicate sounds like a marble going around in a bowl. It moves but doesn't go anywhere. The adventure it takes me on is too simple. ... But that is me. Nobody else. I like a more involved journey.

Follow your heart. Pity those who follow only the paths others say they should follow. They don't even own themselves.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

JeffD said:


> Pity those who follow only the paths others say they should follow.


so pity Bach? Mozart?? Beethoven???


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> so pity Bach? Mozart?? Beethoven???


What do you mean? It's true that all three of them followed the family expectation of becoming composers. However, they all developed their own unique styles, rather than following blindly in the footsteps of previous composers.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

This is in the ballpark but it isn't classical:


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Bettina said:


> What do you mean? It's true that all three of them followed the family expectation of becoming composers. However, they all developed their own unique styles, rather than following blindly in the footsteps of previous composers.


what rubbish... the above mentioned couldn't care less about 'develop own unique style' and other like nonsense, which is a notion that belongs to the twentieth century and onwards; they just worked a lot and followed exactly previous composers, however so it happened their effort brought unexpected fruits in a shape of unique styles and new ideas; but it was mastery that came first.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> what rubbish... the above mentioned couldn't care less about 'develop own unique style' and other like nonsense, which is a notion that belongs to the twentieth century and onwards; they just worked a lot and followed exactly previous composers, however so it happened their effort brought unexpected fruits in a shape of unique styles and new ideas; but it was mastery that came first.


All three of them went through a phase of copying earlier composers, but by their mid-twenties (or thereabouts) they broke away from those models and developed their own compositional voices.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

because, in order to become someone, you don't set a goal, you just learn a lot and then work a lot - this is how you get a chance to reach the goal, i.e. without even knowing or caring about that.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Bettina said:


> by their mid-twenties (or thereabouts) they broke away from those models and developed their own compositional voices.


they did not 'break away'! who told you they did?.. their development came of its own, as a result of their skill and nothing else!


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> they did not 'break away'! who told you they did?.. their development came of its own, as a result of their skill and nothing else!


Nobody told me that they did. Based on studying their music, I've noticed how those three composers break many rules/conventions that their predecessors had followed. For example, Beethoven often used unconventional keys, such as the mediant, for the second theme in his sonatas. In that sense (and in many others), he broke away from the classical sonata practice of Mozart and Haydn.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

gosh, you guys... scary how deluded (brainwashed?) you are... 'break away' eh? what book this from??


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> gosh, you guys... scary how deluded (brainwashed?) you are... 'break away' eh? what book this from??


I'm sure that it is stated in many books, but I'm not basing my claim on that. As I said above, my claim is based on my experience of the music. Listening to the sonatas written before Beethoven, I can hear certain conventions at work (types of modulations, ways of transitioning between themes, etc). And then when I listen to Beethoven's sonatas, my ears tell me that he often didn't follow those conventions.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Bettina said:


> Nobody told me that they did.


i don't believe you.



Bettina said:


> Beethoven often used unconventional keys


that did not mean he 'broke away' or anything, other than he just used unconventional keys, yes, because he reached his skill's limits where the only thing for him to do was broaden them; but this came out of need to do so, not out of whim or search for new ideas.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Bettina said:


> Listening to the sonatas written before Beethoven, I can hear certain conventions at work (types of modulations, ways of transitioning between themes, etc). And then when I listen to Beethoven's sonatas, my ears tell me that he often didn't follow those conventions.


but that alone does not mean a thing. Beethoven, as a genius, could well not have happened; you need to stop judging from hindsight, drop the glamour picture they sold you. Beethoven had only to sustain himself by doing a good job, thats it. God blessed him with luck to be a genius, however, but that is a completely different matter.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> *gosh, you guys*... scary how deluded (brainwashed?) you are... 'break away' eh? what book this from??


What do you mean "you guys"? I'm the only one saying this, at least in this particular thread. I'm not speaking for all of TC! :lol:


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

There are 2 motivations for composing in the history of music, making money on stuff that the composer believed the public or client's would like, and making music based on a certain challenge. Succeeding the 1st will bring money, and in the 2nd will bring personal satisfaction. They don't always go together, maybe less often than not. The first way was by copying other composers or style that was currently in vogue. The second is by heading out in a direction the composer feels would expand the musical boundaries of the time, or just from something more personal in their experience.


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## rhubarbsuburb (Apr 21, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> ....Im wondering if someone has made something that resembles this in the way its structured and how strong and epic the theme is....


I had often wondered similarly when first hearing a John Williams composition, trying to place the influences for the various passages.

It seems that you're asking for a work that mirrors the structure and theme, and not the synthesized sound. I imagine you are using the term 'classical' in the broad sense. The passage in your link alternates between calm and intense, and is similar to when one section of an orchestra is playing, then the layers of the others are added as they join in. I find it more similar in structure to a symphonic rather than a chamber work. And, not to get too far into the weeds, I find it more similar to works from the Romantic period (which immediately followed the Classical period) due to the sense of emotion it conveys and the shifts from quiet to majestic that occur throughout it.

You may or may not be aware, but some of the Romantic era composers were Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms. You ask about a work that has a similar theme (which you brand as 'epic'). The themes I hear in your passage are as if on a journey and having feelings of nostalgia, yearning, hope; maybe some idealistic enthusiasm tempered by caution.

Looking through my CD collection for alternatives to consider, I settled on Dvorak's Symphony #9 ("From the New World"), and more specifically, the 3rd movement (Molto vivace). To my mind, this work conveys these themes.

I'll be interested to hear what you think.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

JeffD said:


> Kajmanen, you have found something you like, that speaks to you, that gets your blood moving. Music, in my experience, has that power. Its one of the greatest indulgences there is.
> 
> Pursue what ever music you like, for what ever reasons you like it, as passionately as possible. You may find as you go along that your tastes change, which is fun too. I don't like the cigars I started with years ago.
> 
> ...


Well stated! .


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> they did not 'break away'! who told you they did?.. their development came of its own, as a result of their skill and nothing else!


There, of course, is a line of development from one composer to another throughout Classical history, and Beethoven had his share of influences (Haydn, Mozart, Bach and so forth), and these influences are drawn upon throughout his career. Nothing is 100% new. But to claim Beethoven's break from convention wasn't much more dramatic than most and strewn with his own uniquely personal convictions and insights in a much more evident manner than all who had come before, would be ridiculous.

(If that's what you are trying to say. It is difficult to tell exactly what you are trying to say...)


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

JeffD said:


> Kajmanen, you have found something you like, that speaks to you, that gets your blood moving. Music, in my experience, has that power. Its one of the greatest indulgences there is.
> 
> Pursue what ever music you like, for what ever reasons you like it, as passionately as possible. You may find as you go along that your tastes change, which is fun too. I don't like the cigars I started with years ago.
> 
> ...


While I highly support this sentiment, it does not mean I view all music as equal as a listener. I take pride in my taste, and certainly do not respect all music equally.

However, if someone seems to be genuinely enjoying something, I would take the time to understand where they are coming from rather than say their taste is wrong, because for some reason or another, they click with that music and that is important.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

When somebody just claims the other is brainwashed and doesn't even believe what the other says... How do you even have a productive conversation with them?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> i don't believe you.
> 
> that did not mean he 'broke away' or anything, other than he just used unconventional keys, yes, because he reached his skill's limits where the only thing for him to do was broaden them; but this came out of need to do so, not out of whim or search for new ideas.


I'm not sure where you're getting your ideas about Beethoven. He improvised in public all the time in his early career and by all accounts he delighted in shocking and surprising his audience. He was conscious of doing entirely new things when he wrote the Eroica and there is documentation of his thoughts on this. For example, at the advent of his middle period he wrote that he was unsatisfied with what he had written to date and that he was going to take a new path from that date forward. This means he had a plan to stand out and escape the conventions of his earlier style.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Bettina said:


> What do you mean "you guys"? I'm the only one saying this, at least in this particular thread. I'm not speaking for all of TC! :lol:


You are not only speaking for all of TC, you are part of a western conspiracy to deny the achievements of Russian and Soviet composers - or hasn't that come up yet?


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Kajmanen said:


> Im aware that alot of classical music is way more complex than what im about to post so now when we have that out of the way. Im wondering if someone has made something that resembles this in the way its structured and how strong and epic the theme is.
> 
> So, heres the track. Its from the game Terranigma that came out on SNES in 1995/6.


Has a Poledouris vibe--






Poledouris conducting months before he died--


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Gulag. Stalag. It's all the same to me.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Vulgar boatmen....Vulgar boatmen.....ut:


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

He loves something. I am willing to let him in the door to watch and listen. Be honest but feed his fire. Some of you want him to go through hoops first, to sweep the porch in proper obsequiousness for seven years first. 

He'll go through all the hoops when he sees that it gets him somewhere he wants to be, not because he wants or needs your acceptance of his taste, your permission for him to have an opinion.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JeffD said:


> He loves something. I am willing to let him in the door to watch and listen. Be honest but feed his fire. Some of you want him to go through hoops first, to sweep the porch in proper obsequiousness for seven years first.
> 
> He'll go through all the hoops when he sees that it gets him somewhere he wants to be, not because he wants or needs your acceptance of his taste, your permission for him to have an opinion.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I'd say the appeal of what you posted is that, because it moves forward in easily discernible units of those simple melodies and motifs, it is very easy to make sense of and understand within the first listen. Honestly the name that kept coming to my mind listening to this was Dvorak, Dvorak, Dvorak. It's probably the horns reminding me of the first movement of his 9th symphony. I know that's not the classical era, but he does sound more like the classical era than some of the things that may have struck you as overblown - his rhythms are more rigid and consistent.

There are a million guides out there to Haydn and Mozart, so I'll recommend Hummel's piano concerto in B minor. My next surest bets would be Beethoven's sixth and the allegretto of Beethoven's 7th, and then repeated listening to all of his symphonies without the expectation that you'll immediately fall in love with them or understand why they were recommended, and then repeated listening to the (relatively) short list of major orchestral classical and romantic era works without the expectation that you'll immediately fall in love with them or understand why they were recommended. 

Just put 3-4 things on your MP3 player every two weeks and keep trying till you find something you like. If you care enough to register on this forum just to ask for suggestions you probably care enough that you'll end up exploring classical music in depth eventually anyway.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> I'm not sure where you're getting your ideas about Beethoven. He improvised in public all the time in his early career and by all accounts he delighted in shocking and surprising his audience.


so what?.. i'm afraid, it is you guys who got it all terribly wrong. Beethoven did have a message, maybe even an unpleasant one, to convey, but *this wasn't his main aim*, only a bonus he couldn't resist the temptation of; so you should focus on his music, the masterpieces he created and *his skill*, instead of his personal message he tried to slip into his works out of his contempt for the audience.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> *this wasn't his main aim*,


So you recognise the scale of his achievement, but simply assert that he didn't set out to _consciously _'break away'?


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2017)

> Ok guys, is there anything of this caliber in the "classical era"?


Yes, I'm sure there is...and there's really good stuff as well!


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

as for 'break away' - try to do something and then start breaking away from it, try to do cooking for example; the results would be rather unsavory, at least most of them; by then your wife has you killed with her bare hands, so a cuisine Beethoven ends up nipped in the bud; same about 19th century music, break away all you want, but first deliver high quality compositions, unlike it is these days, where you 'break away' first and no result.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> So you recognise the scale of his achievement,


sure i do, and i think i made it clear from the start.



MacLeod said:


> but simply assert that he didn't set out to _consciously _'break away'?


exactly.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Can you recommend an authoritative text that might help us all be better informed?


no, on the contrary, i would not recommend texts on the matter of music; they are subject to ideological manipulations and falsifications these days; trust only music alone.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> no, on the contrary, i would not recommend texts on the matter of music; they are subject to ideological manipulations and falsifications these days; trust only music alone.


So _all _sources that report what Beethoven actually wrote about his music and more particularly his intents and purposes are unreliable?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> So _all _sources that report what Beethoven actually wrote about his music and more particularly his intents and purposes are unreliable?


can't be all of them, but some of them maybe, this alone undermines texts veracity.

better go with the music and find answers within it.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> can't be all of them, but some of them maybe, this alone undermines texts veracity.
> 
> better go with the music and find answers within it.


So, just to be clear, you can't present a source for your own assertion, yet you cast doubt on the veracity of others' sources?

I'm always happy to go with the music, but I can't assume his intent from it. It's also true that artists can't be trusted to telll the truth about themselves, so even if LvB said something to the effect that he wanted to break away, his words need to be treated with caution.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> you can't present a source for your own assertion,


no, i can't, and won't, even if i had one.



MacLeod said:


> I'm always happy to go with the music, but I can't assume his intent from it.


well, i'm guessing, his intent was to write good music; that in itself is enough for me.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> that in itself is enough for me.


Well that's fine, but you might allow others to decide for themselves what's enough for them without heaping scorn on them. If I accept what Lockwood writes in his biography, reporting a conversation between LvB and Krumpholz in which he says, "I intend to embark on a new path", as one indicator among many that LvB wanted to do something different with his music, you might offer something more in reply than just "what rubbish" (post #13)


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

back to 'breaking away' - he did break away, but only from his own music, as shown in his 9th by words of the final part - _'Oh friends, not these sounds! Let us instead strike up more pleasing and more joyful ones!'_ - to think, he seems to dismiss that already exceptionally brilliant music of the previous three parts at this point; just amazing!


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> If I accept what Lockwood writes in his biography, reporting a conversation between LvB and Krumpholz in which he says, "I intend to embark on a new path", as one indicator among many that LvB wanted to do something different with his music, you might offer something more in reply than just "what rubbish"


depends on what interpretation of these his words you would offer... if you say that 'new path' is all he was all about, then my reply would be 'what rubbish' of course, and i stick to it.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> no, on the contrary, i would not recommend texts on the matter of music; they are subject to ideological manipulations and falsifications these days; trust only music alone.


Wait a minute! On this basis it's just one opinion against another's opinion. You can't just dismiss Bettina's (actually rather empirical) considerations of Beethoven by accusing her of buying into some manipulated musicological history when you are only proceeding from your own personal opinion.

I'm sure she's played through enough Beethoven to know what's going on. Actually playing music (I mean physically on an instrument) immerses you in the music and makes you take notice of what the composer is doing.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> you are only proceeding from your own personal opinion.


i've no opinion other than the music suggests, i'm against opinions expressed on such matters per se.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

The Super Nintendo had a rather limited sound chip and sound quality. Still, some of the best videogame music was made for this system. From its limitations came great creativity.

If you've played the games as a kid, like me, there's a special kind of nostalgia to the music. And while some videogame music is pretty good for what it is, comparing it to classical music is pointless...

I still enjoy the music of Super Castlevania IV. Here's "Chandeliers":


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

^ The music of Castlevania is actually popular enough for people to do this:






I always hate orchestrations of video game music, but apparently there's an audience for it.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

rhubarbsuburb said:


> I had often wondered similarly when first hearing a John Williams composition, trying to place the influences for the various passages.
> 
> It seems that you're asking for a work that mirrors the structure and theme, and not the synthesized sound. I imagine you are using the term 'classical' in the broad sense. The passage in your link alternates between calm and intense, and is similar to when one section of an orchestra is playing, then the layers of the others are added as they join in. I find it more similar in structure to a symphonic rather than a chamber work. And, not to get too far into the weeds, I find it more similar to works from the Romantic period (which immediately followed the Classical period) due to the sense of emotion it conveys and the shifts from quiet to majestic that occur throughout it.
> 
> ...


Best reply in the whole thread (half of it is OT anyways). Thanks. You managed to describe the things I seem to like and described me a my taste in a nutshell.

"nostalgia, yearning, hope; maybe some idealistic enthusiasm tempered by caution."

Im already familiar with Dvoraks work and what has spoken to me most is his 9th symphony and his Serenade in E Major. If you have any other suggestions or specific works by for example Dvorak, please post it.

A controversial opinion of mine is that I think some video game composers has created better melodies that evoke lots ot emotion better and more effectively than the so called "classical" highly aclaimed composers. Thats why I created this topic, to see what members on this forum would respond with.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Keep listening to classical music and some day you'll find this topic amusing.. and perhaps a little embarassing. This is coming from someone who likes game music.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> i don't believe you.
> 
> that did not mean he 'broke away' or anything, other than he just used unconventional keys, yes, because he reached his skill's limits where the only thing for him to do was broaden them; but this came out of need to do so, not out of whim or search for new ideas.


that's an interesting and refreshing point of view

BUT

what about the Grosse Fuge, the finale of the Hammerklavier sonata, The Appassionata sonata, the opus 59 string quartets, his late string quartets, eroïca simphony......

Is that just continuing what Haydn and Mozart started?


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

Kajmanen said:


> A controversial opinion of mine is that I think some video game composers has created better melodies that evoke lots ot emotion better and more effectively than the so called "classical" highly aclaimed composers. Thats why I created this topic, to see what members on this forum would respond with.


I agree to a point; if you restrict the criteria to a traditional definition of melody, I think videogames have produced more than their fair share of memorable tunes that, if not on even-footing classical music's greatest melodists, are pretty close. And, being soundtracks, their purpose is usually to concentrate melody into 1-3 minute intervals - sort of like Tchaikovsky's nutcracker.

Because of this the prolonged buildups and developments in classical music can seem boring or pompous by comparison, with no given 3 minutes of the larger piece as independently functional as the sole 3 minutes your favorite soundtrack - which should be expected. That's why it's important to hear something like Strauss's Alpine Symphony or Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique more than a handful times before you toss it for being harder to whistle than the Zelda theme.

What do you think of something like this? Arthur Bliss's A Color Symphony


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> A controversial opinion of mine is that I think some video game composers has created better melodies that evoke lots ot emotion better and more effectively than the so called "classical" highly aclaimed composers. Thats why I created this topic, to see what members on this forum would respond with.


My answer to this bit is: emphatically _no_. I don't care about pussyfooting about the topic and worrying about being considered an old stick-in-the mud for saying so. Most melodies in computer games are lifted from these "so called "classical" highly acclaimed composers" anyway, which might explain why so many like them.
I also liked music from many classic computer games, but I also knew that a lot of the early music was derivative of popular classics or folk music.

Modern computer game music is largely film music, much of which is also often derivative and getting more so. The days of Bernard Herrmann are behind us.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> i've no opinion other than the music suggests, i'm against opinions expressed on such matters per se.


So the music suggests your opinion? I think everyone evidently would claim the same thing.

But also you are against opinions of the matter per se? That contradicts the idea of you ever making a contribution regarding that issue at all.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> back to 'breaking away' - he did break away, but only from his own music, as shown in his 9th by words of the final part - _'Oh friends, not these sounds! Let us instead strike up more pleasing and more joyful ones!'_ - to think, he seems to dismiss that already exceptionally brilliant music of the previous three parts at this point; just amazing!


That's quoting out of context. The baritone's words were not meant to dismiss the other movements as crap, but were fashioned by Beethoven as the least unsatisfactory way of introducing what the hell a vocal setting of Schiller's ode was doing as the finale to a symphony. Which sure beat his original text of "Now let us turn to the immortal words of Schiller . . ."


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

MarkW said:


> That's quoting out of context. The baritone's words were not meant to dismiss the other movements as crap, but were fashioned by Beethoven as the least unsatisfactory way of introducing what the hell a vocal setting of Schiller's ode was doing as the finale to a symphony. Which sure beat his original text of "Now let us turn to the immortal words of Schiller . . ."


Good point. If Beethoven had truly wanted to "break away" from the first three movements of the Ninth, he wouldn't have allowed them to be published or performed!


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2017)

Razumovskymas said:


> that's an interesting and refreshing point of view
> 
> BUT
> 
> ...


Zdhanov did make clear that he recognised that Beethoven did break away - but he asserts that that was not a deliberate act, or that he mistrusts evidence that suggests it was a deliberate act.



Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I think videogames have produced more than their fair share of memorable tunes that, if not on even-footing classical music's greatest melodists, are pretty close.


It's true that videogames have produced memorable tunes, but it's an absurd stretch to argue that this point of comparison with classical music supports the claim that the music posted by the OP is 'of the same calibre' as classical.



MarkW said:


> That's quoting out of context. The baritone's words were not meant to dismiss the other movements as crap, but were fashioned by Beethoven as the least unsatisfactory way of introducing what the hell a vocal setting of Schiller's ode was doing as the finale to a symphony. Which sure beat his original text of "Now let us turn to the immortal words of Schiller . . ."


And yet, Zhdanov has a point that this particular example shows _in the music _(as opposed to in a biography or musicologist's text book) a deliberate choice being made to set aside 'this' for 'that'.


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## rhubarbsuburb (Apr 21, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> ....A controversial opinion of mine is that I think some video game composers has created better melodies that evoke lots ot emotion better and more effectively than the so called "classical" highly aclaimed composers. Thats why I created this topic, to see what members on this forum would respond with.


I'm new to this forum and am deeply underwhelmed by those who use your inquiry as a platform to bloviate on totally irrelevant matters considering your thread topic. Some folks just gotta spew, I suppose.

Your point is worth considering. Can a contemporary composer convey emotion 'better and/or more effectively' than the classical music composers? Sure, but that's because 'emotion' is in the ears of the beholder. I read the comments on the youtube link you provided, and wonder whether those gamers would feel the same listening to a Beethoven piano sonata, which might bring tears to a non-gamer.

Venue or synthesized-vs-acoustic arguments aside, there's the question of chronology; to wit -- could a more contemporary orchestral composer (e.g. Hindemeth) develop more of a sense of emotion in his music than that which was achieved by composers from a century prior? To some, I imagine so.

One could even widen your query to include other genres -- conceivably, a rock guitarist could find more emotion in a Gilmore solo than in any classical passage; and (ack!) a teenage female could (and I'm sure DOES) find more emotion in a Justin Bieber lyric than in any classical fragment.

Curiously, this morning, I'm listening to string quartets and Borodin's #2 in D major is coming through the speakers. But I hear Sinatra singing 'Baubles, Bangles and Beads' (which, ironically, others attributed to a tune from 50's era 'Kismet'). I'm quite sure there were some dreamy-eyed young ladies who felt a deep emotion when hearing Frank who would've felt nothing hearing Borodin's original piece.

I thought your post was, intellectually, both reasonable and fun to consider.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2017)

rhubarbsuburb said:


> I'm new to this forum and am deeply underwhelmed by those who use your inquiry as a platform to bloviate on totally irrelevant matters considering your thread topic. Some folks just gotta spew, I suppose.


It's sometimes difficult to see how off-topic responses can be avoided. Retrace what's been said, and you can see how the OP's assertion, including the charming term 'wankery', leads the thread in several different directions, some more relevant than others. Up to a point, you have to accept that every post is entitled to a response, and if two people have a side issue, so what?


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> It's sometimes difficult to see how off-topic responses can be avoided. Retrace what's been said, and you can see how the OP's assertion, including the charming term 'wankery', leads the thread in several different directions, some more relevant than others. Up to a point, you have to accept that every post is entitled to a response, and if two people have a side issue, so what?


Good point about the OP, which (in its original form) leveled many accusations and insults at classical music. I just went back and reread the OP, and to my surprise I discovered that it's now been heavily edited. The references to classical "wankery" and "pomposity" have all been deleted. Many of the posts in this thread were responding to the original version of the OP. Now that much of that material has been removed, I can see why the replies might appear off-topic to some new readers.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Best reply in the whole thread (half of it is OT anyways). Thanks. You managed to describe the things I seem to like and described me a my taste in a nutshell.
> 
> "nostalgia, yearning, hope; maybe some idealistic enthusiasm tempered by caution."
> 
> ...


My bro made a similar statement saying he found film music to be way better than the music of the Classical masters. I myself had that view for a while. The appeal is in the broad themes with clear tonal melodies. You can find those in Holst's Jupiter middle section, Elgar's Nimrod, Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake, Wagner's Tannhauser Overture, and yes the New World Symphony amongst others. It is usually a melody played on strings or horns, and the rest of the orchestra harmonizes on that theme, with some cymbals clashing at the climactic moments. Film music derives from these. Film music is aimed for the masses, and there is nothing wrong with that. It lacks subtlety, and does not push musical boundaries, which is what more highly acclaimed music does.

After immersing myself in film music like J. Williams, Poledouris, Horner, etc. I started getting bored with the same big theme formula, and it started sounding insincere and 'manufactured'. Compare any of that film music with Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 23, for example, and you will find the Mozart has much more subtlety, nuance, intricacy, and beauty. But it takes a musically inquistive mind to delve deeper, especially into the atonal stuff.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> My bro made a similar statement saying he found film music to be way better than the music of the Classical masters. I myself had that view for a while. The appeal is in the broad themes with clear tonal melodies. You can find those in Holst's Jupiter middle section, Elgar's Nimrod, Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake, Wagner's Tannhauser Overture, and yes the New World Symphony amongst others. It is usually a melody played on strings or horns, and the rest of the orchestra harmonizes on that theme, with some cymbals clashing at the climactic moments. Film music derives from these. Film music is aimed for the masses, and there is nothing wrong with that. It lacks subtlety, and does not push musical boundaries, which is what more highly acclaimed music does.
> 
> After immersing myself in film music like J. Williams, Poledouris, Horner, etc. I started getting bored with the same big theme formula, and it started sounding insincere and 'manufactured'. Compare any of that film music with Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 23, for example, and you will find the Mozart has much more subtlety, nuance, intricacy, and beauty. But it takes a musically inquistive mind to delve deeper, especially into the atonal stuff.


Ok, lets remove the word "better" and replace it with something like equally good. I dont think film/game music composer are nowehere near the musical complexity of the maestros of the classical era, but what I do think is that some themes, melodic lines can in some cases be as good or maybe in some cases even better or more emotionally clear and straight forward, and more memorable.

Like for example, The Great Bath from the game Turrican. What does this piece not have that things from the piano masters from the classical era have?


__
https://soundcloud.com/chris_huelsbeck%2Fchris-huelsbeck-the-piano-collection-the-great-bath-demo

Does this lack nuance,subtlety,intracacy and beauty?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Ok, lets remove the word "better" and replace it with something like equally good. I dont think film/game music composer are nowehere near the musical complexity of the maestros of the classical era, but what I do think is that some themes, melodic lines can in some cases be as good or maybe in some cases even better or more emotionally clear and straight forward, and more memorable.
> 
> Like for example, The Great Bath from the game Turrican. What does this piece not have that things from the piano masters from the classical era have?
> 
> ...


Agree to not use the word "better", and that those themes may be more emotionally clear, and straight forward, but that not mean better. The second "Kingdom Hearts" clip uses the same 3 chord progression over and over (with no verse, bridge, chorus) with a simple melody and some variations built around it, so the way I see it, it doesn't even have the complexity of Taylor Swift (not trying to put either down, since I feel complexity doesn't necessarily translate to being better). The first "Great Bath" clip had some more development, but is still not really challenging stuff. Right hand melody on broken left hand chords.

What the masters have that these don't have is the use of suspension, more original melodies that are not based solely on the improvisation of notes on the chords, more complex harmonies beyond conventional chord progressions, which makes it more profound. But if you talk about emotion, then these pieces may well conjure as much strong emotion on the listener, as any classical, I'll give you that.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Does anyone have anything to recommend that plays similiarly or same technique like the maintheme that starts at 1.00 where the bass/tuba plays alongside the main melody/strings.I think thats really cool and powerful. But something that was made with real instruments from the "classical" era? With classical era i just mean classical music in general.


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

deleted with fifteen characters


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

I think you might like Wagner overtures. They are very dark and cinematic


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

I have a very different background than you when it comes to non-classical tastes but for what its worth this is the piece that originally got me into classical music and you may like it


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

Kajmanen said:


> Does anyone have anything to recommend that plays similiarly or same technique like the maintheme that starts at 1.00 where the bass/tuba plays alongside the main melody/strings.I think thats really cool and powerful. But something that was made with real instruments from the "classical" era? With classical era i just mean classical music in general.


I couldn't point to a specific moment, but if you have some patience there are likely several similar moments within this (and Mahler's other symphonies, for that matter).


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I agree to a point; if you restrict the criteria to a traditional definition of melody, I think videogames have produced more than their fair share of memorable tunes that, if not on even-footing classical music's greatest melodists, are pretty close. And, being soundtracks, their purpose is usually to concentrate melody into 1-3 minute intervals - sort of like Tchaikovsky's nutcracker.
> 
> Because of this the prolonged buildups and developments in classical music can seem boring or pompous by comparison, with no given 3 minutes of the larger piece as independently functional as the sole 3 minutes your favorite soundtrack - which should be expected. That's why it's important to hear something like Strauss's Alpine Symphony or Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique more than a handful times before you toss it for being harder to whistle than the Zelda theme.
> 
> What do you think of something like this? Arthur Bliss's A Color Symphony


Been listening to the colours symphony quite a bit and i do like it. It is colourful


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Anyone know anything that kind of resembles the track in Op but with real instruments? I find game music so incredibly moving on a a more human level, the themes and atmospheres. Cant really pinpoint what it si. I want to find classcial that does the same for me.

Maybe its the nostalgia/dreamy sound. I dont find that in classical music. Like this.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Why don't you just listen to game music? It seems to me there is nothing within classical music that will satisfy your listening desires in the same way.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> Not sure about your comparison. That music sounds more like a typical Japanese pop song from the 1980s.
> 
> *By the way 'a lot' is not one word.*


O U C H!!!! 

I'll be watchin' for any mistakes.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Kajmanen said:


> Ok, lets remove the word "better" and replace it with something like equally good. I dont think film/game music composer are nowehere near the musical complexity of the maestros of the classical era, but what I do think is that some themes, melodic lines can in some cases be as good or maybe in some cases even better or more emotionally clear and straight forward, and more memorable.
> 
> Like for example, The Great Bath from the game Turrican. What does this piece not have that things from the piano masters from the classical era have?
> 
> ...


I find that many of the New Age artists, and some of the musicians that work in the electronic music realm, have much more in common with the samples you've been posting than classical composers.

If you want music more similar than classical music to the samples, you might want to explore some of those.

Off the top of my head:

Vangelis
Tomita
Jean Michael Jarre
Kitaro
Peter Bauman
Suzanne Ciani
Yanni


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Anyone know anything that kind of resembles the track in Op but with real instruments? I find game music so incredibly moving on a a more human level, the themes and atmospheres. Cant really pinpoint what it si. I want to find classcial that does the same for me.
> 
> Maybe its the nostalgia/dreamy sound. I dont find that in classical music. Like this.


I think it might be the constant feeling of portent. I see this in some of the comic books folks recommend to me. Lots of drama and anxiety hinting at things to come, and building to..., ohh my goddddd, more moments of drama and building, until finally we are almost at the door to ... wait for it, I can't believe it, its... its... its more anxienty about the future and foreboding.

For me it gets old real quick. As soon as I suspect that there is no climax to which we are building, no resolution of the tension, I get bored with it.

But that is me. Nobody else. My opinions don't matter, and shouldn't matter to you.

Here is what I don't get, and perhaps you can explain it. You have a kind of music you really are into, you love it. So what are you even looking for in classical music? I mean who cares what you like, just like it and like it a lot. Why the comparisons, why the occasional put downs and snarkiness?

You don't have to get my approval, or anyone else's, or any kind imprimatur of "good taste" from the "establishment of what is and isn't high art council, marching, and lager society". Just like what you like, listen to what you want.

Game music and classical music are two different genres, with two different goals, written for different reasons. Why you would want to engage us in the comparison is really confusing.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

JeffD said:


> I think it might be the constant feeling of portent. I see this in some of the comic books folks recommend to me. Lots of drama and anxiety hinting at things to come, and building to..., ohh my goddddd, more moments of drama and building, until finally we are almost at the door to ... wait for it, I can't believe it, its... its... its more anxienty about the future and foreboding.
> 
> For me it gets old real quick. As soon as I suspect that there is no climax to which we are building, no resolution of the tension, I get bored with it.
> 
> ...


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I think I've found something for you. I wouldn't put it among the 'classical canon' as such, but Debbie Wiseman is a respected and long-serving composer for film and television. This is something she did as 'composer in residence' for Classic FM.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm keeping out of this one


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Just want some recommendations. Maybe im trying to find something there isn't anything of. Sorry. I get what you say though.


I have a prejudice that if you love any kind of music, really love it, you will dig into it and find what makes it tick and find the structure and the framework that undergirds it. Then you will find that that same structure undergirds most music, and eventually you will find your way to other musics to get passionate about.

But even if that is not your path, just loving something, just having a passion about something, is a wonderful thing.

I am willing to chat with you about music, classical or otherwise, without prejudice, and I will be honest and tell you if I don't like something, and why if I can, and guiding your listening if and when its appropriate and possible. (I don't have as vast a musical experience as many here do.)

As long as the questions are earnest seeking for examples, or seeking for something to try, and not this comparison and the disparaging and kind of a defense by being on offense first. Keep in mind we love what we listen to as much as you do, and are put off as much as you would be when our musical taste is poked at. There is a lot that is great in what we listen to, and a lot that is yawn. But we love it. Passionately. And love to share with enthusiasm and knowledge when someone seems earnestly interested in it.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Maybe you would like Mozart Requiem, if no one has said it yet. It has drama to it for sure. Check out the whole work, but this movement in particular is famous for its tragic drama:






PS, I enjoy game music a lot, of all its kinds. What else do you like, Kajmanen?

Sorry to see people get all worked up over what I think was a very inoffensive inquiry on your part.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

Kajmanen said:


> Like this.


I think this music goes for an easy, shallow effect, much like that kingdom Hearts track Dearly Beloved. Without a single lesson anyone can sit down at the piano, pick a key, play a simple 3 or 4 note loop with their left hand, and then play random notes with their right hand and produce sounds that they find pleasant or even moving, more moving even than certain works in the classical canon that don't do anything for them.

That's always puzzled me, that many complex compositions leave me colder than thoughtless loops with drawn out notes and an echo effect; I don't think this necessarily reflects poorly on me, you, or (obviously) the composers, though. I just think that music like this (and some minimalism and trance, much of pop, and etc) exploits the inherent pleasantness that exists in all sufficiently simple musical ideas - it shouldn't mystify you that it moves you so easily. You could probably learn to make something like that yourself relatively quickly, and it shouldn't be hard to find tons of other music just like it. Heck, try the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata.

Naturally music that overshoots those broad, low targets will have to appeal to your more particular tastes and inclinations which, being more particular, are harder to please and harder to familiarize yourself with, so that you may have given up on things that would have opened up had you continued. You keep posting stuff that glides generically over 3 to 4 note loops on a synthetic harp and then asking "what's the secret to this?" You post noble, sweeping orchestral music, receive recommendations of Berlioz and Wagner overtures and Strauss's tone poems and etc, and then don't respond as if you sincerely tried to absorb them and failed, but ultimately leave us to guess.

Try these maybe? I picked stuff with some repetition or surface prettiness, I think. Persevere with the orchestral selections. Try the first 3 to 5 minutes or wait for the first sensible stopping point around that length, and just listen until you know that part intimately, and then give it time.


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Let's define our terms.

To the OP: you may find this helpful, both as it applies to this thread and to your music research in general. Your thread title refers to the "classical era." Classical music in its entirety is chronologically divided into periods. Here's where it gets confusing, as there was an actual "classical era," or "classical period," which was (arguably and approximately) 1750 - 1805 (ish). When it truly began and ended would be a topic for an entire thread, so for now, that's my classical period estimate. So it sounds as if your question refers only to that brief time period in music. I suspect you really mean in the classical "world." It's a big world.

For the sake of defining our terms as they apply to this thread and this line of thought, allow me to suggest that instead of "classical music," we divide things as:

-- Orchestral concert music (what we typically think of as "classical music")
-- Orchestral game music (orchestral music specifically composed for games)
-- Orchestral film music (orchestral music specifically composed for film or as film soundtracks)

Just a couple of polite suggestions to perhaps make things in this thread a bit easier to discuss and reference. Or not.

-09


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> That's always puzzled me, that many complex compositions leave me colder than thoughtless loops with drawn out notes and an echo effect


The magic of music. When it happens it happens. Its not always about complexity or skill. Thanks for the links, I check them out.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> I think I've found something for you. I wouldn't put it among the 'classical canon' as such, but Debbie Wiseman is a respected and long-serving composer for film and television. This is something she did as 'composer in residence' for Classic FM.


Thanks, this was good.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Clint Eastwood:44 Magnum = Terraigma:water gun.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I'm keeping out of this one


You can be so wise :angel:


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I couldn't point to a specific moment, but if you have some patience there are likely several similar moments within this (and Mahler's other symphonies, for that matter).


21 min of confusion.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> 21 min of confusion.


If you're willing to give up your day job and relationships and dedicate hours a day to listening, all of Mahler soon becomes clear. I promise.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Oh for christ's sake can someone kill off this thread


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Tallisman said:


> Oh for christ's sake can someone kill off this thread


Why does it brother you so much?


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Why does it bother you so much?


Some people are probably a bit annoyed by the fact that you clearly have no taste for the usual 'classical' repertoire, but seem to be on a fruitless search for something you're not going to find.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

Kajmanen said:


> 21 min of confusion.


Except for a few moments I don't really like it either. Again, try Strauss's alpine symphony. How you could like some of the orchestral game tracks you've posted and not that I don't understand. If you've already tried that, try the Star Trek Next Generation opening theme.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Kajmanen said:


> 21 min of confusion.


Music 'of this caliber' is not for you, it seems.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Why does it brother you so much?


Not agitated at you, just the fact that we're clearly getting nowhere with this impossible thread... You've gauged TC's opinion: namely, that the answer is 'yes'.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Anything similar in the classical world?


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Anything similar in the classical world?


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Would there be anything that resembles this? Thanks for helping


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Would there be anything that resembles this? Thanks for helping


Yes:


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> Yes:


Haha, you're a funny one.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

It's actually a good piece though isn't it?


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Would there be anything that resembles this? Thanks for helping


My first thought is that that is inspired from some of the Star Wars themes, with some techwise beeps and boops added, which SW themes were intern ripped from, I mean inspired by, a Holst piece "Mars" from "The Planets".

Which actually I think you might like. Lots of foreboding and portent.






The Holst is kind of doing a similar job, but more interestingly, more pointedly, with more variation, and it gets somewhere, where as the piece you offered is just constant waiting for something ominous to happen and nothing does.

My honest views.

What is your project? You know what you like. What difference does it make to you where it stands in relation to classical music?

Over here we have 'classical music', over there we have the genre 'Kajmanen Likes', and there is some overlap, but not probably a whole lot. So? So what? What are you trying to get us to say, or to admit?

God bless, listen to what you like and enjoy it till the blueberry juice runs down your chin. What ever it is called and where ever it comes from.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

JeffD said:


> My first thought is that that is inspired from some of the Star Wars themes, with some techwise beeps and boops added, which SW themes were intern ripped from, I mean inspired by, a Holst piece "Mars" from "The Planets".
> 
> Which actually I think you might like. Lots of foreboding and portent.
> 
> ...


No, ive gotten some recommendations from here I do enjoy and people here are very knowledgeable. I'm not after something. Thanks for posting.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Well if you are getting some recommendations that you enjoy, then its all good.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

This might be the thing:


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Isnt the countermelody in the takeoff pretty unique? When the... What is it?
Bassoon? When it plays together with the synths/strings. Is there something like that in the classical world?


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Isnt the countermelody in the takeoff pretty unique? When the... What is it?
> Bassoon? When it plays together with the synths/strings. Is there something like that in the classical world?


What are we talking about - the piece in the OP still?


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Video game music can be quite good in its own right and for its own purposes, without comparing to other music.

Examples were posted of Super Nintendo music; the sound chip of that system had huge limitations and from that came a special kind of creativity, similar to chiptune music. If you've played the games you'll be able to appreciate.

From Final Fantasy VI (1994), the "opera scene" Maria and Draco 





Because many people who played the games have fond memories, there is actually demand for orchestral adaptations of old video game music (I don't think it's sung very well but you get the idea ):


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