# Composers' personalities?



## Guest (Jan 17, 2019)

Which composers were nice, and which ones were jerks? From what I read, Haydn seemed like a rather nice guy.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2019)

Lachenmann wasn’t the most polite person when I met him tbh. He likes getting photos taken with his fans though.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Benjamin Britten could be a piece of work. Although very generous and loyal when he wanted to be he also had a propensity for some rather precious and arrogant behaviour, which included abruptly casting close associates adrift for what seemed to be the flimsiest of reasons.

There was one excruciating incident in 1963 when the producer John Culshaw was seriously embarrassed by Britten in the studio in front of everyone during the sessions for the _War Requiem_. Culshaw's crime? To have had a rehearsal tape pressed onto vinyl and given to Britten as a 50th birthday present (the record was given the serial no. BB50) along with his best wishes. Britten, however, was far from impressed and complained that because the rehearsal was recorded and retained without his knowledge and consent it was an 'unauthorised intrusion', leaving Culshaw with a rather large flea in his ear. Nice...


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Vincent Persichetti had a cheerful, encouraging, and endearing personality that inspired those who knew him. He never said a sour word, even when reviewing unsolicited manuscripts. He never had a bad word to say about anyone and young composers were known to save the rejection letters he wrote because they cherished the comments about their work. Even the formidably dour Roger Sessions had kind words for his Juilliard colleague. He once told his biographer Andrea Olmstead that "Mr. Persichetti is pure gold."


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Benjamin Britten could be a piece of work. Although very generous and loyal when he wanted to be he also had a propensity for some rather precious and arrogant behaviour, which included abruptly casting close associates adrift for what seemed to be the flimsiest of reasons.
> 
> There was one excruciating incident in 1963 when the producer John Culshaw was seriously embarrassed by Britten in the studio in front of everyone during the sessions for the _War Requiem_. Culshaw's crime? To have had a rehearsal tape pressed onto vinyl and given to Britten as a 50th birthday present (the record was given the serial no. BB50) along with his best wishes. Britten, however, was far from impressed and complained that because the rehearsal was recorded and retained without his knowledge and consent it was an 'unauthorised intrusion', leaving Culshaw with a rather large flea in his ear. Nice...


Do we know why Britten didn't get on with John Vickers?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

^
^

I read that Britten disliked Vickers' portrayal of the title role in _Peter Grimes_, but I don't know if there was anything else which stirred the pot.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Having read an enormous number of composer biographies, the personalities of the great composers are all over the spectrum. But some of the prickliest: Wagner, Beethoven, Morton Gould, Bernard Herrmann, Joachim Raff. Even Elgar could be difficult - he would reject and turn on friends for the smallest infractions. Franz Schmidt could be very difficult but then he was ill for his last decade or so. Happier composers: Mendelssohn, Schumann, Dvorak, Korngold...
When I read bios of composers or conductors one thing that stands out is the vast number of them who had mistresses. I suppose that it was acceptable back then, but to modern readers is still is somewhat shocking. Puccini, Wagner, Faure, Debussy sure didn't take marriage vows seriously.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

By his own friends' accounts, Ruggles was a jackass. There are reminiscences of him loudly and proudly blurting racist venom in public for all to hear.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

From what I've read, Ockeghem was a pretty nice guy, and everyone seemed to like him.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> Happier composers: Mendelssohn, Schumann, Dvorak, Korngold...


How was Schumann happy?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> When I read bios of composers or conductors one thing that stands out is the vast number of them who had mistresses. I suppose that it was acceptable back then, but to modern readers is still is somewhat shocking. Puccini, Wagner, Faure, Debussy sure didn't take marriage vows seriously.


I was thinking about the same thing. Both Elgar and Vaughan Williams seem to have had affairs with much younger women, for example. I am not sure that this was acceptable in the England at the time but, of course, the wives had few options to respond in those days. I think quite a few composers found muses in young women. Wasn't it such a love that led to Janacek suddenly becoming a genius at an advanced age?


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Lully was a jerk. He probably had a superficial charm, but his greed claimed a monopoly of all music published, whether he'd written it or not. He was promiscuous with both males & females, & was maybe in today's terms a sexual predator. He had a foul temper too. He is reputed to have kicked a pregnant ballerina to bring on a miscarriage so that she was available to work in his troupe. 

Doesn't stop me loving his music.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

For a substantial period of his adult life Malcolm Arnold had the reputation of being rather unpleasant, and was even worse when drunk.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Another genius, Jean de La Fontaine, wrote a poem about his colleague Lully that ends with these lines:

Chacun voudrait qu'il fût dans le sein d'Abraham; 
Son architecte, et son libraire, 
Et son voisin, et son compère, 
Et son beau-père, 
Sa femme, et ses enfants, et tout le genre humain, 
Petits et grands, dans leurs prières, 
Disent le soir et le matin : 
« Seigneur, par vos bontés pour nous si singulières, 
Délivrez-nous du Florentin. »

Everyone would like him to be in the bosom of Abraham; 
His architect, and his bookseller, 
And his neighbor, and his friend, 
And his father-in-law, 
His wife, and his children, and all the human race, 
Young and old, in their prayers, 
Say evening and morning: 
"Lord, by your kindness to us so singular, 
Deliver us from the Florentine. "


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Young and old, in their prayers,
> Say evening and morning:
> "Lord, by your kindness to us so singular,
> Deliver us from the Florentine. "


Good heavens! It seems like a well-placed stab in the foot was an answer to a lot of prayers.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

*Cesar Frank* was living like a monk. He was also quite poor. He had an excellent character and everybody loved him. Some ladies and gentlemen with money was helping him to buy his every day food, but he never devoted works to them, as other composers had done. Instead, he tried to repay them with some free music lessons. An intact musician (organ player) and composer of the highest level.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

HSW said:


> How was Schumann happy?


After struggling to become a musician, when did get there his music was widely played and loved. He had a relatively stable married life with Clara. He was a critic and publisher which gave him a great deal of contentment. One reason for his undramatic, fairly normal life was that he didn't live in the musical center of the universe, and a cesspool of musical intrigue, Vienna. His unfortunate demise into insanity deprived the world of a towering genius.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> Mendelssohn,


the rich guy alienated himself from all his contemporaries 
https://books.google.ca/books?id=_xsUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA343#v=onepage&q&f=false


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Dimace said:


> *Cesar Frank* was living like a monk. He was also quite poor. He had an excellent character and everybody loved him. Some ladies and gentlemen with money was helping him to buy his every day food, but he never devoted works to them, as other composers had done. Instead, he tried to repay them with some free music lessons. An intact musician (organ player) and composer of the highest level.


His wife was no great support. Still, he loved her and took it all in stride. Richard Strauss was another with a shrew of a wife.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Purcell --- Based on contemporary references to his humor and forgiving attitude toward musicians, one would like to think he might have been a friendly sort.

Handel --- Apparently had a very high opinion of himself and nearly got himself killed because of it (duel with Mattheson). He could be quick-tempered. I get the impression Handel could be stand-offish. While having guests, he would serve them the cheap port while excusing himself to sip the good stuff from his own liquor cabinet. I'm not sure Handel would have been all that much to hang out with. You could get to know him, enjoy his company, but perhaps not well.

Bach --- His son commented on his serious temperament, especially as concerns music. As far as music went, Bach did not suffer fools gladly or gracefully. If you were a musician, God help you. You'd better be a good one. Personality-wise, he seem to enjoy his beer, tobacco and wives (21 children). He also was said to have a healthy sense of humor. He was an extremely busy man and so probably didn't go to the pub very often, but if you had caught him at the Kneiper, he probably would have made a solid impression, a serious but buoyant personality who would have made you laugh with some biting comments concerning politics, the church and other musicians. Beyond that, he seems to have kept to his music, his family, and his home fire.

Haydn --- Haydn was said to have had in impish sense of humor and was well-liked, it seems, by nearly everyone who met him. A lady of high society was once in the presence of Haydn and Mozart while they conversed and said they were both bores -- talking of nothing of interest beyond music. Oh, to have been a fly on that wall.... I think you would have found Haydn unfailingly polite, pleasant and of good humor.

Mozart --- Mozart seems to have been well-known about town and quickly recognized. He must have been readily recognizable in personality and presence. One gets the sense from his many letters that he could be impish, playful, tender, kind and very vain --- very, very vain, but not arrogant. Perhaps endearingly so. He was likely much more approachable than Bach or Handel. He seemed perfectly happy hanging out with the hoy-poloi [sic] of the musical establishment --- something Bach never would have done and Haydn less likely.

Beethoven --- Beethoven was said to be charming, gregarious and approachable when young, but current theory has it that he suffered severe lead poisoning in his twenties (I think). This is thought to have had a profound affect on his personality and health. Beethoven, as most know, could be very short tempered, did not suffer fools, and was unforgiving of those stupid enough to question his musical judgement in any way. He must have liked the company of others,despite his reputation, as he frequented pubs and restaurants. His earpiece still survives, so he must have enjoyed conversation as far as possible. He could also be tender, loyal and liked to laugh (so we're told by contemporaries). I think, in his older years, Beethoven would have been difficult to know on a personal level. He seems to have enjoyed politics and the subject engaged him.

More speculation?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Both Mozart and Prokofiev were given to gambling. Prokofiev returned to Russia to escape his gambling debts. Were there other gamblers or addicts?


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2019)

vtpoet said:


> Beethoven was said to be charming, gregarious and approachable when young


Wow, didn't know that!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Bach --_Gardiner suggests that Bach was no choirboy when it came to his behavior at school as a young child. "The facts are that Bach played truant at school," Gardiner tells host Jeff Spurgeon. "He was absent a heck of a lot of the time." _https://www.wqxr.org/story/gardiner-js-bach-was-hooligan-his-youth/
called his fellow choir members names and got into fight with them
https://www.classicfm.com/composers/bach/guides/when-bach-took-beating/

Handel -- _"The madness of George Frideric Handel
The composer was notorious for his love of food. But new research suggests his greed was the consequence of a pathological condition". _https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...adness-of-george-frideric-handel-1660009.html



vtpoet said:


> Beethoven --- Beethoven was said to be charming, gregarious and approachable when young, but current theory has it that he suffered severe lead poisoning in his twenties (I think). This is thought to have had a profound affect on his personality and health.


He was still charming in his fifties 






Enthusiast said:


> Both Mozart and Prokofiev were given to gambling. Prokofiev returned to Russia to escape his gambling debts. Were there other gamblers or addicts?


https://books.google.ca/books?id=UZkq414Q0X0C&pg=PA72#v=onepage&q&f=false _"a few scholars have inferred that Mozart was a gambler. For this there is no direct evidence."_





_It may seem strange that Mozart made fair copies, entered these items into his personal works catalogue (in which he tended to omit ephemeral works) and allowed them to be copied. The reason he favored these small and crude pieces in ways similar to his more serious and important works remains a mystery.
- Buch (2016), "Mozart's bawdy canons, vulgarity and debauchery at the Wiednertheater", Eighteenth Century Music_


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> Both Mozart and Prokofiev were given to gambling. Prokofiev returned to Russia to escape his gambling debts. Were there other gamblers or addicts?


Was Prokofiev's debts down to cards? By all accounts Stravinsky was a decent poker player. Had they mixed in the same circles he probably would have cleaned out Prokofiev well before the revolution.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Paganini was a notorious gambler who lost millions. At one point he was even forced to pawn his violin. He was helped out by a French merchant who gave him an excellent Guarnerius as a gift, the instrument he used for the rest of his performing career. Paganini opened a gambling casino in Paris, "Casino Paganini", which eventually failed and cost him another fortune. He died a couple of years later.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> Both Mozart and Prokofiev were given to gambling. Prokofiev returned to Russia to escape his gambling debts. Were there other gamblers or addicts?


What is your source for Prokofiev's gambling? I've read a couple of biographies of the composer and haven't heard this before.



elgars ghost said:


> Was Prokofiev's debts down to cards? By all accounts Stravinsky was a decent poker player. Had they mixed in the same circles he probably would have cleaned out Prokofiev well before the revolution.


Prokofiev's game was chess. By all accounts he was proficient at it.


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## Felix Mendelssohn (Jan 18, 2019)

Nice composers: Haydn, Mendelssohn, Liszt, Dvorak, Vivaldi
Somewhere in between: Beethoven, Chopin, Schumann, Bach
Jerk: Wagner


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

hammeredklavier said:


> https://books.google.ca/books?id=UZkq414Q0X0C&pg=PA72#v=onepage&q&f=false _"a few scholars have inferred that Mozart was a gambler. For this there is no direct evidence."_


I couldn't follow the link but note that without blaming a gambling addiction (a shameful thing that might have been better hidden) there is a mystery of where Mozart's very significant earnings went. This is discussed in many places - these are examples that covers much of the ground 
http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=11123

http://www.historyrundown.com/was-mozart-really-poor/


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I couldn't follow the link but note that without blaming a gambling addiction (a shameful thing that might have been better hidden) there is a mystery of where Mozart's very significant earnings went. This is discussed in many places - these are examples that covers much of the ground
> http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=11123
> 
> http://www.historyrundown.com/was-mozart-really-poor/


But Mozart didn't make that much sum every year of his career. 



 _"by 1787, his income was down to a 1/3 of what had been during his most prosperous years in Vienna. A recession had drastically curtailed the capital's musical life."_

Austro-Turkish War (1788-1791) 
http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/Austro-Turkish_War_(1787-1791)#cite_note-Solomon_1995.2C_433-6
_"A consequence of this social disruption was that the vibrant musical life of Vienna was greatly diminished, with the closure of two opera companies and decline of concerts and salon performance. This created trouble for the career of Mozart and other musicians similarly dependent on the aristocracy."_

His wife was constantly pregnant, and ill. "He sent her off to an expensive spa (in Baden), and couldn't afford the bills." 




The sources you cited aren't backed with solid evidence. In the second one, the writer simply 'estimates' his average earning based on his most successful concerts, _"However, as we can read in a number of historical sources, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart often received more than 1000 Guldens for one single(!) concert. If we consider 6 such concerts every year + other incomes, we can estimate his yearly incomes to be around 10,000 Austro-Hungarian Guldens."_

What the writer fails to realize is not all of Mozart's concerts were successful. For example,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart's_Berlin_journey
_"The concert, organized on short notice, apparently was not well attended. Mozart writes back home, that "from the point of view of applause and glory this concert was absolutely magnificent but the profits were wretchedly meager" (letter, 16 May 1789)."_


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

Composer personalities?
Unfortunately they were all human.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

hammeredklavier said:


> But Mozart didn't make that much sum every year of his career.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You may be right. I don't know. But the information going the other way is not very solid either. He may not have always made good money but he sometimes made very good money indeed. And the times he complained of poor profits from a venture don't necessarily mean that they were loss making. And those of his costs that we know of do not seem to add up to such huge amounts. But I am not historical scholar and don't even have the time to search through the scholarship that exists but I continue to believe that there is at least something that needs to be explained about where his money went.


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