# comparison between film music patterns and independent composing



## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Hi and merry christmas from Munich!

I wrote an orchestral piece for a slide-show, which contains both film music patterns and normal musical development. I tried to support the images and athmosphere of the alpine tour, but had more freedom than in real film-scoring, as I could also switch the images or change the timings.

Therefore it was suitable for a comparison of both elements. I already wrote a post about it in the huge chewing-gum-thread about film music, but it got lost there - so I write it as a separate therad.

Here the comparison table I made - maybe it helps a little to understand the differences between film music and the rest - as I did something in between:



*timecode**film-music patterns / moments**other parts*0:00-0:193 motifs of the mountain bird are presented. I'll use mainly the third one for further development0:23upwards scale representing the climb up the stairs0:34first entry of the brass, accompanying a scene with the vast concordia place0:46the bird motif repeated by the horn, illustrating the great Aletschhornfirst development of 3rd bird motif0:58-1:12change of atmosphere as we get closer to our first key passage (the Fieschersattel). Slowdown of the musical movement to increase the tension1:13typical pattern for the climb to our first "crux". But I wanted to make the pattern a bit more creative, so I tried to find something interesting in 7/8 time2:01-2:08repeating the bird motif with the oboe at our first summit (2:03)trying to switch gently from 7/8 to 4/42:26after the martial-like passages, I wanted to change to a sweeter atmosphere. I chose the right pictures so that it matched together with the end of our first tour2:37playing the 3rd bird motif in a different atmosphere (major)2:53transitioning between the previous atmosphere to a more jazzy vibe2:57for our next ascent I wanted a different vibe than at the first ascent. I chose a short jazzy passage with a walking baseline2:59first bird motif in a variation (first 3 notes of clarinet)3:14developing the jazz-motif with the flute3:22mixed feelings as we're getting to the more challenging climbing parts3:31music gets more optimistic as we're doing well in these parts and are getting closer to the summit3:38first bird motif in another variation (trumpet)3:43-4:00first peak moment as we reach the summit4:01-4:26a kind of a coda, only musical development between 4:01 and 4:26 (reference to the pictures is incidental)4:27musical resolution as we get close to our last summit4:34combination of the peak motive (3:43) and the third bird motif (variation), in another time (3/4) and the subdominant key, as we see our main summit (Finsteraarhorn) from far away4:52I wanted to integrate the original 3rd bird motif in the 3/4 - time. Of course it sounds a bit humoristic in this waltz-style, but I still like it ;-)5:10I've managed to match the 3/4-rythm quite well to the brushstrokes of our route, but it got a little off-sync during the uploadlast recurrence of the 3rd bird motif (horn)5:19I would have liked to elaborate the ending more, but here it would have been too much work to sync all the route images again


And of course the corresponding slide-show with the music. Please don't pay too much attention to the sound quality, it's just a score-export with Sibelius & NotePerformer (without post-processing):


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

Of course incidental music and concert music are different forms with different compositional approaches and processes, but:

1) No one has ever disputed the fact that incidental music which uses the musical language of classical music is classical music and the official definition of classical music doesn't say that it's concert music. The controversy has been raised only to attack the composers of film music.

2) Not only incidental music is a form of art just like concert music, but someone might even support the idea that incidental music is even harder or more artistic because it can not be abstract: it must communicate a well determined message. In the concert music you don't have to give a meaning to what you are writing, while in incidental music the compositional choices must be justified and there are more criterias to determine if you have done a good work or not.

Try to replace the right score in a film scene...







... with the wrong score. You can almost say that there is an objective error here, because the music doesn't communicate what the scene must communicate.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

I won't join the discussion about film music being classical music or not, because even the definition of "classical music" itself is difficult. See this remark in Wikipedia:

_The contemporary understanding of the term "classical music" remains vague and multifaceted _

Also, there's an overlap between the interpretation of the term "classical music" and the classical period (music composed roughly between 1750 and 1820).

What I wanted to show is, that the approach, workflows and targets are different between film music and concert music (I'll use this distinction) - even in my simple example, where I tried to combine both styles.

Most of the time, film music is made specifically for a film and often makes little sense without the film. This is absolutely fine as it was designed for the film! There's a lot of film music that I like and that I can appreciate - but rarely without the film. I went to a concert where a symphony orchestra played film music by John Williams (without showing film material). I mostly enjoyed it! But that's an exception - I can't imagine a similar experience with most of the other film music composers (at least for myself).

When listening to music, I generally prefer music which is designed for the purpose of music only. It's quite logical that the quality of such music should be normally better than the quality of music which has to serve other purposes and has to fit the respective restrictions. Nevertheless I'm happy there's still such film music like from John Williams!

I hope the comparison table is not too cumbersome to follow - I couldn't think of a better way to display it in this forum.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

verandai said:


> Most of the time, film music is made specifically for a film and often makes little sense without the film. This is absolutely fine as it was designed for the film! There's a lot of film music that I like and that I can appreciate - but rarely without the film. I went to a concert where a symphony orchestra played film music by John Williams (without showing film material). I mostly enjoyed it! But that's an exception - I can't imagine a similar experience with most of the other film music composers (at least for myself).
> 
> When listening to music, I generally prefer music which is designed for the purpose of music only. It's quite logical that the quality of such music should be normally better than the quality of music which has to serve other purposes and has to fit the respective restrictions. Nevertheless I'm happy there's still such film music like from John Williams!


Very well said. I don't care what genre film music is placed in, if there is even a need for a separate genre than film music. I hear it as being inferior to music written to stand alone (a symphony or piano sonata, to give a couple of examples), without it acting in a supporting role for a visual experience or being a mood enhancer. I feel the same way about opera, although I think the music written for opera is generally of higher quality than film music.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

The restrictions related to the images and the film-music-patterns sometimes also had positive effects on the creativity. In that case I was guided to take certain paths that I wouldn't have chosen without the images - and some of them I really liked! For example, I wouldn't have gotten the idea of the 7/8 - passage without the "story of the tour". And afterwards I was happy about the idea! 

Sometimes it was a nice symbiosis - but mostly because I also had the freedom to change some of the pictures and their timings.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Very well said. I don't care what genre film music is placed in, if there is even a need for a separate genre than film music. I hear it as being inferior to music written to stand alone (a symphony or piano sonata, to give a couple of examples), without it acting in a supporting role for a visual experience or being a mood enhancer. I feel the same way about opera, although I think the music written for opera is generally of higher quality than film music.


Operatic music, for me, is leagues better than film music, which requires the visual element in order to understand --- opera does not. Anyway, there is some exquisite music found in opera that film music can't even touch. No comparison really and the same goes for ballet. All of these people defending film music as if its some kind of holy grail of artistic expression definitely makes me raise an eyebrow.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I feel the same way about opera, although I think the music written for opera is generally of higher quality than film music.


What does "generally" mean in this case, when there have also been thousands of opera composers too. Do Romanza and you care about Baroque operas of alternations of secco recitatives and da capo arias? There were thousands of them too. How many of Handel's do you find valuable? Whatabout his longer ones that are 4 hours long?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

hammeredklavier said:


> What does "generally" mean in this case, when there have also been thousands of opera composers too. Do Romanza and you care about Baroque operas of alternations of secco recitatives and da capo arias? There were thousands of them too. How many of Handel's do you find valuable? Whatabout his longer ones that are 4 hours long?


I mean "generally" in the most general sense, that is, all of opera. As I have written numerous times, I am not a fan of opera as a genre and only enjoy a small selection of parts from some operas. I find no interest whatsoever in secco recitatives (specially since they are often accompanied by a harpsichord (ew)).


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Neo Romanza said:


> *Operatic music, for me, is leagues better than film music*, which requires the visual element in order to understand --- opera does not. Anyway, there is some exquisite music found in opera that film music can't even touch. No comparison really and the same goes for ballet. All of these people defending film music as if its some kind of holy grail of artistic expression definitely makes me raise an eyebrow.


I agree, opera is much better than film music, and I think opera is leagues worse than absolute symphonic music.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Thread temporarily closed for discussion in the moderators group.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Re-opened. Please stick to the topic defined by the thread starter, and do not venture into a general discussion about whether film music is classical music. There is already a separate thread for that. Several posts have been deleted.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

I haven't read the posts which were deleted - but I think I didn't miss much 

I don't mind discussing about the quality, content or composing workflows of film music (compared to concert music or opera), as I tried to show some of the differences in my initial post.

But I'm not interested in the tedious discussion about film music being classical or not. There are more than enough threads for that.


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