# Period instrument Beethoven symphonies



## Raefus Authenticus (May 5, 2013)

Hello again, everyone.

I have recently finished listening to the new Beethoven symphony cycle by Frans Brüggen and Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century. I enjoyed the cycle, in the main, but found a few things missing from what I personally prefer in a period instrument performance of these works, namely 'rawness' of sound and aggressive attack in the allegro/presto movements. I suspect that what I have long considered 'authentic', as far as 'rawness' is concerned, may well be something that only ever existed during the 'authentic boom' period, and that this latest authentic cycle by Brüggen may well be closer to what musicians in Beethoven's day were striving for and/or achieving. However, I can't shake the feeling that it's just too fastidiously expurgated to be truly 'authentic'.

Here are a few questions that I would like to post:


What do you like/hate about period instrument performances of Beethoven's symphonies? (I like raw brass, colourful woodwind, sinewy strings, and clattering drums. I also like brisk pace, where 'appropriate'). 


What do you want from a period instrument performance of Beethoven's symphonies? (I want to believe that it's as Beethoven would have expected it to sound). 


Which period instrument recordings of Beethoven's symphonies do you recommend and why? (My preferred full cycle is Norrington, but I also like Hogwood and Goodman/Huggett. One of the best-sounding No.9s is The American Bach Soloists under Jeffrey Thomas. I am aware of the reputation of Gardiner's set, but I find it somewhat lacking in drama and character). 

Below is my current collection of period instrument Beethoven symphonies. Does anyone know of any other recordings that aren't listed below?

Academy of Ancient Music (1-9)
Anima Eterna (1-9) 
Hanover Band (1-9)
La Chambre Philharmonique (1-9) 
London Classical Players (1-9) 
Orchestra of the 18th Century (1-9) 
Orchestra of the 18th Century 2011 (1-9) 
Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique (1-9) 
American Bach Soloists (9) 
Anima Eterna (5 on DVD)
Collegium Aureum (3 & 7) 
Ensemble Philidor (3)
Le Concert des Nations (3)
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (4&7 on DVD)
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (9)
Orchestre des Champs Elysees (9)
Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique (5 & 7, new recording on DVD) 
Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra (3 & 8)
Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra (4 & 7)
Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra (9)
Tafelmusik (3)
Tafelmusik (5 & 6)
Tafelmusik (7 & 8)


----------



## Guest (Jun 20, 2013)

Hmm, are you still looking for one that you really like? Because if you haven't found it yet, with that collection, I'm not sure you ever will.

I am not an historian when it comes to music. I have no idea what was authentic to Beethoven. I just know what I like. For me, I like the gut strings and I like the smaller ensembles. I also, at times, appreciate the brisker tempi taken. That being said, my current favorite Beethoven cycle is not HIP - it is the Vanska/Minnesota Orchestra cycle on BIS. Of the HIP recordings, I quite enjoy Gardiner and Immerseel. I have a couple of Hogwood's recordings as well, but don't turn to them as often as I do to Vanska, or even Szell.


----------



## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

I like the fact that I can hear all the parts clearly. It's like how Glenn Gould played piano. That's the main advantage. I dunno if it was LV's deafness or -what- but some of the orchestrations are too dense for modern instruments in spots. It's like putting Windex on the performance. Woodwinds especially---there are super-interesting parts I literally never heard before.

I find some of the tempi to be too fast... whether that's what LV meant or not.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I quite enjoy Academy of Ancient music and London Classical Players. Wonderful sonority of the orchestras.


----------



## Guest (Apr 3, 2015)

Raefus Authenticus said:


> [*]What do you like/hate about period instrument performances of Beethoven's symphonies? (I like raw brass, colourful woodwind, sinewy strings, and clattering drums. I also like brisk pace, where 'appropriate').


It sounds to me like you would love the set by Paavo Jarvi, with Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen. It is Beethoven set with a smaller orchestra that you might usually hear it. I believe it works really well on all but the 9th. This set has gotten rave reviews.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Jerome said:


> It sounds to me like you would love the set by Paavo Jarvi, with Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen. It is Beethoven set with a smaller orchestra that you might usually hear it. I believe it works really well on all but the 9th. This set has gotten rave reviews.


Is that period instruments?


----------



## Guest (Apr 3, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> Is that period instruments?


i don't have the liner notes, only the recordings. But the reviews indicate it is "HIP".


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Jerome said:


> i don't have the liner notes, only the recordings. But the reviews indicate it is "HIP".


It's on youtube. Clearly modern instruments but played using based on historical practice and his own interpretation.


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

DrMike said:


> Hmm, are you still looking for one that you really like? Because if you haven't found it yet, with that collection, I'm not sure you ever will.
> 
> I am not an historian when it comes to music. I have no idea what was authentic to Beethoven. I just know what I like. For me, I like the gut strings and I like the smaller ensembles. I also, at times, appreciate the brisker tempi taken. That being said, my current favorite Beethoven cycle is not HIP - it is the Vanska/Minnesota Orchestra cycle on BIS. Of the HIP recordings, I quite enjoy Gardiner and Immerseel. I have a couple of Hogwood's recordings as well, but don't turn to them as often as I do to Vanska, or even Szell.


After the Eroica, what would have been authentic to Beethoven would have been silence.
I enjoy the Hogwood /AAM cycle. My other versions are with modern instruments. Not sure that LVB would have preferred the instruments of his own time since he was always railing about their limitations, but there questions about balances, etc with modern Orchestras.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The things about HIP that could be a turnoff-very fast tempos, no vibrato and a lacking in "feeling".

If you prefer clarity over feeling, then HIP Beethoven may be for you.

Sample some of the John Eliot Gardiner recordings before you buy, to hear if it's right for you.

Coming from Gunter Wand or Bruno Walter, HIP Beethoven can be quite a shock.


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

hpowders said:


> The things about HIP that could be a turnoff-very fast tempos, no vibrato and a lacking in "feeling".
> 
> If you prefer clarity over feeling, then HIP Beethoven may be for you.
> 
> ...


I quite agree, but speaking personally I find HIP performances refreshing and different, they do throw a me light on Beethoven for me


----------



## Illuminatedtoiletpaper (Apr 12, 2012)

The biggest difference for me (or at least the most apparent) is the softer, duller (as in less sharp) sound of the strings, which I find quite enchanting without necessarily losing any energy. My ear for old violins is how I can tell a Strad from another violin, and while the sound is a little less defined and sober, it remains emotionally powerful and dynamic. Then again, maybe this is all in how the sound is recorded mixed.

I don't think period instrument recordings sound feeling or emotionally devoid, just warmer. Also, I tend to enjoy -- as others have mentioned -- the clarity of smaller orchestral sizes.


----------



## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

I also prefer my Beethoven on period instruments. However there are two sets I would urge you to take the time to explore, both on modern instruments, but 'historically informed':

1) Scottish Chamber Orchestra (Nos 1-8)/Philharmonia Orchestra (9)/Sir Charles Mackerras
2) Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra/Riccardo Chailly

One much-lauded set I really DON'T like one bit is David Zinman's set with the Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra. They are beautifully played, but I an very sceptical about Zinman's 'research' and inclusion of annoying ornaments into the music. This is Beethoven lite-and-frilly and definitely NOT for me.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

The clarity of the woodwinds and the balanced sound of the smaller period instrument orchestra is best. That's what they used to do, so why not follow it.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It's mainly the difference in the balance of winds to strings I like, which is partly a result of ensemble size and partly one of gut strings, natural horns, etc. The effect is more colorful and vivid. In modern orchestra performances wind parts have often been doubled to restore balance against the strings, which is obviously not the effect Beethoven had in mind. But we shouldn't assume that he wouldn't have approved; performance practice then was more flexible than people arguing for HIP often realize or admit. I can enjoy a period-style Ninth, but I wouldn't give up Furtwangler for anything.

Mentioning Furtwangler also brings up the controversies over Beethoven's tempo (metronome) markings. On the whole I see no reason not to take them into consideration, which is not the same as following them slavishly. Beethoven was merely deaf; he wasn't incapable of feeling a pulse. But I think it's true that music "heard" in the mind, which need not take cognizance of the effect of the weight of sonority or the acoustic in which the music is played, seems satisfactory at faster speeds than would be effective in actual performance, and that some of Beethoven's requested tempi are a bit on the fast side. Our own ears and our own feelings are the best guide. From what I've heard on HIP recordings, Beethoven at close to his marked tempi usually sounds fine, but an insightful performance differently conceived can be compelling at much more deliberate speeds.


----------

