# Worst Opera by your Favorite Composer



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think by sheer numbers of favorites, Verdi has to be my favorite composer, much as I love Bellini, Donizetti and Rossini. But I've never been able to enjoy Rigoletto. I may come to love it in time, but I've been to quite a few performances and seen it more than once on DVD and there's just something missing. Heart, maybe.

Does your favorite composer have a popular opera that you just can't stand?


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Mozart is one of my favourite composers but of the six mature operas I have of his Cosi fan tutti satisfies me the least - yes, there is much beautiful music, especially the gorgeous 'Soave sia il vento', but for me it's over-long bearing in mind the thinness of the plot (the plot of Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail could also be called thin but duration-wise hardly wastes a note) and the characters - Despina apart - aren't sufficiently interesting or even endearing. Worse still, Don Alfonso comes across like the smartass pub bore. I know Cft is well-loved so maybe there's a subliminal level to this opera that I cannot yet appreciate - can anyone help/sympathise?


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

elgars ghost said:


> Mozart is one of my favourite composers but of the six mature operas I have of his Cosi fan tutti satisfies me the least - yes, there is much beautiful music, especially the gorgeous 'Soave sia il vento', but for me it's over-long bearing in mind the thinness of the plot (the plot of Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail could also be called thin but duration-wise hardly wastes a note) and the characters - Despina apart - aren't sufficiently interesting or even endearing. Worse still, Don Alfonso comes across like the smartass pub bore. I know Cft is well-loved so maybe there's a subliminal level to this opera that I cannot yet appreciate - can anyone help/sympathise?


One of the issues I struggle the most with is access. Popular operas that others love, I just don't get. Cosi is not one of them, however. Cosi is the ONLY Mozart opera I love, and I'm pretty sure it's on my top ten.

It's not just the gorgeous music. There's something about the plot that appeals to me at a deep level. I mean, what these two guys are doing is so obviously futile - has anyone mentioned that Guglielmo cheats on his girlfriend before she cheats on him? and apparently without a second thought - the double standard is batteringly obvious. The opera makes many comments justifying women and making it clear that it's not all their fault, mostly through Despina, but the primary emotional freight is that we as guys have to get over it and move on. Marry her or don't marry her, but don't think she's immune. To me that's a deeply wise result. Real wisdom is pretty rare.


----------



## AlanPalgut (Apr 11, 2012)

_Eduardo e Cristina_ (Rossini, 1819) is just a ******** string of music he took from, and reused in, some of his better operas in his output of the era.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

In spite of my screen name, my favorite opera composer is probably Verdi. Of the operas of his that I know well (and I don't know them all equally well -- far from it), IL TROVATORE is probably my least favorite. I've seen two productions of it, one where the conducting was exciting and another where the conducting was dull. The first made me like the opera and see its good points, while the second made me think that, really, TROVATORE is a clumsy opera. So I think a good performance of TROVATORE depends more on good conducting than most people think. (What's that famous quote about IL TROVATORE? That "all it needs" are the five greatest singers in the world? Whoever said that should have added "and the greatest conductor"!)

But on the whole, I believe ERNANI is a much more coherent work than IL TROVATORE, with music that is just as beautiful.


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

I am also huge Verdi fan, all his operas have a place in my collection but of his mature masterwork period* I am still waiting to be floored by Sicillian Vespers.
*
It is rarely performed since it is very long opera composed as a Paris "grand opera" style work in 5 acts. I was hoping the new Tutto Verdi video would be huge success unfortunately a hit and miss affair, still nice update to the old Muti La Scala DVD version. The first and definitely final acts are solid, just that 3 acts in between that need some "juice"


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Verdi's *La Forza del Destino* is the one that fails to engage me, even having seen it live a couple of times. Its signature soprano aria Pace Dio Mio always strikes me as a rather basic and lumpen tune, and as for _Rataplan-plan-plan-plan-plan_, arghhh what was Verdi thinking! The overture's okay though ;-)


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Richard Wagner. Not his worst (I still like it better than the three first operas), but I find Die Meistersinger von Nuernberg way less interesting than most Wagner enthusiasts.


----------



## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

Worst Opera by my Favorite Composer?

Die Feen :lol:


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Alexander said:


> Verdi's *La Forza del Destino* is the one that fails to engage me, even having seen it live a couple of times. Its signature soprano aria Pace Dio Mio always strikes me as a rather basic and lumpen tune, and as for _Rataplan-plan-plan-plan-plan_, arghhh what was Verdi thinking! The overture's okay though ;-)


I don't understand your remark about Pace Mio Dio as it is generally considered one of the most beautiful arias in the world of opera.


----------



## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Silvano (or Nerone if it wasn't for the peculiar genesis).
Even Mascagni himself defined it: "due atti di piccola roba" (two acts of little stuff)


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Alexander said:


> Verdi's *La Forza del Destino* is the one that fails to engage me, even having seen it live a couple of times. Its signature soprano aria Pace Dio Mio always strikes me as a rather basic and lumpen tune, and as for _Rataplan-plan-plan-plan-plan_, arghhh what was Verdi thinking! The overture's okay though ;-)


It is a bit tricky to pull off, the ending gets mucked up in some performances missing much dramatic impact, and the long sequence where Leonora enters monastary and goes through rituals can drag at times......

There is a DVD of original Russian debut version where Alvaro kills himself also in final scence, but I think wisely Verdi later revised to allow Alvaro to live and grieve the tragic consequences of "La Forza del Destino" resulting from accidental killing of Leonora's father


----------



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

moody said:


> I don't understand your remark about Pace Mio Dio as it is generally considered one of the most beautiful arias in the world of opera.


Indeed.

Just listening to this superb rendition by Rosa Ponselle it's a wonderful experience:






However, à chacun son goût


----------



## Forte (Jul 26, 2013)

Bach didn't write operas. Therefore Beethoven's _Fidelio_ is the best and worst opera by Beethoven. 

Okay, but then my least favorite opera by Mozart (because he's my favorite operatic composer) is probably one of the small childhood ones, the first few, even though they're great for an 11 or 12 year old.


----------



## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> I am also huge Verdi fan, all his operas have a place in my collection but of his mature masterwork period* I am still waiting to be floored by Sicillian Vespers.*


Had you lived in Europe I'd have urged you to see the production in Frankfurt in September/October. I saw the same it in June and really enjoyed it in. I'd barely even heard of it before I went to see it, certainly didn't know the music, it was performed in French with German surtitles (I'm by NO means fluent in either!) - but made sense of it. They made it current (late 1960s) by connect it with the cultural revolution in Germany because of how it parallels the events in Sicily in 1282. *A VIDEO*. I guess it didn't hurt that Guy de Montfort had a voice that can make devils cry. 

*To answer the original question:*
I can't stand "Aida". I've seen it twice and I'm yet to enjoy it.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> In spite of my screen name, my favorite opera composer is probably Verdi. Of the operas of his that I know well (and I don't know them all equally well -- far from it), IL TROVATORE is probably my least favorite. I've seen two productions of it, one where the conducting was exciting and another where the conducting was dull. The first made me like the opera and see its good points, while the second made me think that, really, TROVATORE is a clumsy opera. So I think a good performance of TROVATORE depends more on good conducting than most people think. (What's that famous quote about IL TROVATORE? That "all it needs" are the five greatest singers in the world? Whoever said that should have added "and the greatest conductor"!)
> 
> But on the whole, I believe ERNANI is a much more coherent work than IL TROVATORE, with music that is just as beautiful.


Interesting post. I should note, since I posted this I have in fact come to love Rigoletto, and in fact I think it's the Verdi opera I've listened to the most over the last six months! So sometimes it's just a matter of seeing or hearing the right production. And in that case I should ask: have you heard the Trovatore with Leontyne Price, Sherrill Milnes, and Placido Domingo? or seen the one with Domingo, Kabaivanska, and Cappuccilli? The two together should make you a Trovatore lover, if either by itself does not. The video was described to me as "amazeballs" and I think the word applies well. (I've been looking for another opportunity to use it and haven't found one yet.)

As for clumsy - surely Tales of Hoffmann is much clumsier. I admit, you can see the strings attached to the characters' arms and legs as Verdi moves them in and out of place. Some people, that bothers (heck, sometimes it bothers me). For me, Leontyne Price's Leonora was so stunning that it just didn't matter. She went above and beyond, folks. And in the video, I think it was Cossotto's performance - her tiny little Italian Grandma face - singing about burning at the stake that finally grabbed me the most. Although I do think Zajick actually made a better Azucena. Ripping away Manrico's bandage with her knife - a priceless scene. That girl was badass.

I don't want to say anything more about conductors - I posted some time ago a question about what conductors' performances blew people away, and on a side light speculated about whether or not a large orchestra could actually do without a conductor, and everyone jumped on me about the side issue and nobody answered the question. So I will remain quiet on that for now.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> I am also huge Verdi fan, all his operas have a place in my collection but of his mature masterwork period* I am still waiting to be floored by Sicillian Vespers.
> *
> It is rarely performed since it is very long opera composed as a Paris "grand opera" style work in 5 acts. I was hoping the new Tutto Verdi video would be huge success unfortunately a hit and miss affair, still nice update to the old Muti La Scala DVD version. The first and definitely final acts are solid, just that 3 acts in between that need some "juice"


Yeah, you got me on this one. I too don't enjoy this one much. I have a copy, but I just don't find occasion to listen often.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Alexander said:


> Verdi's *La Forza del Destino* is the one that fails to engage me, even having seen it live a couple of times. Its signature soprano aria Pace Dio Mio always strikes me as a rather basic and lumpen tune, and as for _Rataplan-plan-plan-plan-plan_, arghhh what was Verdi thinking! The overture's okay though ;-)


I don't listen to this one much either - don't think I even have a copy!


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Art Rock said:


> Richard Wagner. Not his worst (I still like it better than the three first operas), but I find Die Meistersinger von Nuernberg way less interesting than most Wagner enthusiasts.


I have yet to make it all the way through Meistersinger. Great overture, though!


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Forte said:


> Bach didn't write operas. Therefore Beethoven's _Fidelio_ is the best and worst opera by Beethoven.
> 
> Okay, but then my least favorite opera by Mozart (because he's my favorite operatic composer) is probably one of the small childhood ones, the first few, even though they're great for an 11 or 12 year old.


God, can you imagine if Bach had written operas? Whoo. that would be something. Someone ought to be able to write an opera in Bach's style, no?


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Operafocus said:


> Had you lived in Europe I'd have urged you to see the production in Frankfurt in September/October. I saw the same it in June and really enjoyed it in. I'd barely even heard of it before I went to see it, certainly didn't know the music, it was performed in French with German surtitles (I'm by NO means fluent in either!) - but made sense of it. They made it current (late 1960s) by connect it with the cultural revolution in Germany because of how it parallels the events in Sicily in 1282. *A VIDEO*. I guess it didn't hurt that Guy de Montfort had a voice that can make devils cry.
> 
> *To answer the original question:*
> I can't stand "Aida". I've seen it twice and I'm yet to enjoy it.


WOW!!! THAT was an amazing video. Good things are happening that are not at the Met! I will have to start following Quinn Kelsey's career! (I haven't been able to enjoy Aida yet either, unfortunately.)


----------



## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Interesting post. I should note, since I posted this I have in fact come to love Rigoletto, and in fact I think it's the Verdi opera I've listened to the most over the last six months! So sometimes it's just a matter of seeing or hearing the right production.


I looooove Rigoletto. It's probably my favourite Verdi piece. For me, though, if "Rigoletto" himself isn't satisfying it ruins everything. The baritone HAS to give Rigoletto a heart and a wounded soul - otherwise you'll feel nothing for him at all, when he's in tatters. If "Cortigiani" doesn't blow me away, I can may as well just be out of there. lol.



guythegreg said:


> I don't want to say anything more about conductors - I posted some time ago a question about what conductors' performances blew people away, and on a side light speculated about whether or not a large orchestra could actually do without a conductor, and everyone jumped on me about the side issue and nobody answered the question. So I will remain quiet on that for now.


If I may... About six months ago I saw Riccardo Muti and Fabio Luisi conduct up close within about a month of one another. I'd never been terribly picky with conductors, if I'm being honest, and I'd been thinking that whoever's in the pit is in the pit.

Watching Muti was _almost _more mesmerizing than watching the opera itself. I was watching him from a side-view and the control he has over both the orchestra and the singers is phenomenal. He'd sent a singer a look and they'd immediately respond. He had all eyes on him at all times and if he says jump, the question is pretty much "how high?" He was very firm but I felt that what he did was reassure as much as anything - but I have a feeling it's "my way or the highway" with him . It has to be said, though, that he's so incredibly elegant that it's fascinating just watching him do his thing.

Luisi was somewhat different. Him I saw closer up, from the front of the stage, as he was conducting a concert about three rows away. He didn't appear as _firm _as Muti but still in control. What I found amazing was that he didn't look at the book. He had notes in front of him, he'd rearrange the pieces of papers every now and then, but I never once saw him turn a page as he was conducting. By enlarge he was paying attention to the singer next to him as well as keeping an eye on the orchestra in front of him. His looks were of encouragement and as a subtle reminder to the singer. Whenever he turned his head to look at a singer, they knew something was coming up and thereby paid attention to him.

The way Luisi (at times) holds the orchestra right back and lets the singers shine is something that an orchestra couldn't do on their own. The subtleties he added to "Cortigiani" made it all the more powerful. The way Muti controls _everything _in front of him leaves no room for error and in return you get a cast that's at their best, at all times. Let's not forget, the conductor isn't just there for the orchestra, s/he's there for the singers too.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> WOW!!! THAT was an amazing video. Good things are happening that are not at the Met! I will have to start following Quinn Kelsey's career! (I haven't been able to enjoy Aida yet either, unfortunately.)


I've followed him for the past two or so years, ever since I saw him in his first "Rigoletto". He's a phenomenon. I guess for someone like Ferruccio Furlanetto to call up Vienna and Covent Garden (after the first rehearsal they did together) and pretty much ask why the hell they haven't hired him yet also says something.


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

schigolch said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Just listening to this superb rendition by Rosa Ponselle it's a wonderful experience:
> 
> ...


It really is a great aria in context of the opera story, Leonora sings of peace and laments her lost love, right before final tragedy of being killed by her own vengeful brother

Wonderful music craft by Verdi, "destiny" theme opens aria and the heavenly sound of the harp strings evoke spiritual devotion, lovely floated notes, cries of despair and lament.....


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Worse still, Don Alfonso comes across like the smartass pub bore.


I like Despina a lot, especially the bit where she bitches about "the ladies" and the Dr. Despina prank. But I totally agree on Don Alfonso - the man needs a life. Also agreed on the length of the opera.

I've been going through a major Mozart phase, so I'll stick with him for this thread. I haven't heard all of his operas (the ones before Mitridate plus Ascanio in Alba and Il Sogno di Scipione), but the rest I like or at at least I can listen to without issues, except for *Idomeneo*, which I find a convoluted bore musically with a silly plot (never liked fantasy stuff or Greek tragedy fare). I occasionally listen to the best known arias but as yet I only sat through the whole thing once and that with difficulty.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> I should note, since I posted this I have in fact come to love Rigoletto, and in fact I think it's the Verdi opera I've listened to the most over the last six months! So sometimes it's just a matter of seeing or hearing the right production.


I was shocked to read the original post :lol: let me come back to this thread in six months madly in love with Idomeneo


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

As my favourite composer is Beethoven and his only opera is also one of my favourites, I am at a bit of a loss with this question.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> It is a bit tricky to pull off, the ending gets mucked up in some performances missing much dramatic impact, and the long sequence where Leonora enters monastary and goes through rituals can drag at times......
> 
> There is a DVD of original Russian debut version where Alvaro kills himself also in final scence, but I think wisely Verdi later revised to allow Alvaro to live and grieve the tragic consequences of "La Forza del Destino" resulting from accidental killing of Leonora's father


I first heard it from Zinka Milanov with the wonderful floating ethereal notes.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> I have yet to make it all the way through Meistersinger. Great overture, though!


The problem is dear old Rich overplays his hand. It is far too long. There is some marvellous stuff in Meistersinger but you wish Wagner had visited a cutting room for his final edit!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

deggial said:


> I was shocked to read the original post :lol: let me come back to this thread in six months madly in love with Idomeneo


I must confess it's one of Wolfie's operas I haven't got into yet.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Guythegreg: Actually, I _have_ the Price/Domingo/Milnes/Cossotto TROVATORE but haven't played it beyond the first scene yet! However, that first scene is really excellent, largely due to the bass Bonaldo Giaotti (hope I spelled the last name right) as Ferrando. He was a singer who could act with his voice while never breaking up the legato line.

THE TALES OF HOFFMANN happens to be one of my all-time favorites, but you have a point when you say it's clumsy. I think it is clumsy in the sense that so many different versions of it exist that it's hard to know exactly what you're going to get when you attend a performance. I've seen three productions of it already, and in each one I heard some piece of music or scene I'd never heard before.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I once did the stage lighting for Offenbach's 'Orpheus in the Underworld'

Dreadful! G&S without the laughs!


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I must confess it's one of Wolfie's operas I haven't got into yet.


weirdly, I came to it full of goodwill - so many musicians call it a wonderful, exquisite work of art - his first masterpiece, say some. And yet...


----------



## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Not meaning to shock anyone, but for me it would be _Parsifal_. I've seen it staged three times - one of which was Jess Thomas' retirement from singing and the other was sung about perfectly and with majesty by Placido Domingo. As beautifully sung and wonderful a performance as Domingo's was, Parsifal is one opera that leaves me cold.


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> But I've never been able to enjoy Rigoletto. I may come to love it in time, but I've been to quite a few performances and seen it more than once on DVD and there's just something missing. Heart, maybe.


I see from your later post that you've happily come to your senses (ha ha) and enjoy Rigoletto. It's by far my fave Verdi opera and I'm totally enamored with the new Met production, placing the action in 60s mob-controlled Las Vegas. I attended the theater HD showing and immediately bought the DVD when it came out. It's now one of my top opera DVDs. Superb singing throughout, incidentally, in addition to the terrific 20th century staging. A re-set that actually works! (the final trio and the stabbing of Gilda is an amazingly produced scene, for example, and honestly it's the single most intensely produced scene of any opera I've seen, as gripping as any brilliant and tragic movie incident).

I love Mozart, Marriage of Figaro being my all-time fave opera, but I sadly cannot abide Cosi. The premise is just too oppressive toward women for me to appreciate, and the whole stageplay itself is far too limited in scope (all based on a fool-me fool-you farcical "comedy of errors" that's always bored me anyway, whether it be Shakespearean or American musical comedy).

And yeah, I know that the culture 200 years ago was less favorable to women, but the whole premise of Cosi still sticks in my craw. I just don't think that the music overpowers the leaden story line sufficiently for me to enjoy it.

I mean, look at Nozze by comparison... Susanna is arguably the brightest person in the whole opera, the romance between Figaro and her is quite realistic, and although the Countess is pushed around by hubby, she triumphs in the end, her honor and integrity winning out.

Yes, the music of Cosi is superb -- Mozart never wrote a bad note -- but opera is, after all, not just orchestral and singing, but a mix of music and theater, and if one end of the stick isn't held up, the whole thing can fall flat. As I find Cosi.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

DavidA said:


> I once did the stage lighting for Offenbach's 'Orpheus in the Underworld'
> 
> Dreadful! G&S without the laughs!


Strangely enough, I would say the opposite of your comment was true! However witty Gilbert was as a wordsmith the actual humour has always left me cold. Perhaps I just prefer Parisian-style vulgarity in this instance.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

katdad said:


> I see from your later post that you've happily come to your senses (ha ha) and enjoy Rigoletto. It's by far my fave Verdi opera and I'm totally enamored with the new Met production, placing the action in 60s mob-controlled Las Vegas. I attended the theater HD showing and immediately bought the DVD when it came out. It's now one of my top opera DVDs. Superb singing throughout, incidentally, in addition to the terrific 20th century staging. A re-set that actually works! (the final trio and the stabbing of Gilda is an amazingly produced scene, for example, and honestly it's the single most intensely produced scene of any opera I've seen, as gripping as any brilliant and tragic movie incident).
> 
> I love Mozart, Marriage of Figaro being my all-time fave opera, but I sadly cannot abide Cosi. The premise is just too oppressive toward women for me to appreciate, and the whole stageplay itself is far too limited in scope (all based on a fool-me fool-you farcical "comedy of errors" that's always bored me anyway, whether it be Shakespearean or American musical comedy).
> 
> ...


Yes, Cosi presents a problem. Of course it is an enlightenment piece as in the ending shows where the principals sing of the virtue of reason of the emotions. Of course if reason ruled the day there wouldn't be such a daft plot. It's interesting that this opera was largely neglected after Mozart's death and has only really been revived since about the 1950s. The plot was considered too trivial and somewhat immoral. Beethoven couldn't see how Mozart had wasted his talent on it. All of which I would agree with. But once we except the unlikely plot we do find that it is an absolutely perfectly conceived ensemble opera. And the music is so constantly inspired that it actually makes you believe it.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> Guythegreg: Actually, I _have_ the Price/Domingo/Milnes/Cossotto TROVATORE but haven't played it beyond the first scene yet! However, that first scene is really excellent, largely due to the bass Bonaldo Giaotti (hope I spelled the last name right) as Ferrando. He was a singer who could act with his voice while never breaking up the legato line.


:lol: when you said Giaiotti was the Ferrando I had to look it up ... all this time I was sure it was van Dam! duh...



> THE TALES OF HOFFMANN happens to be one of my all-time favorites, but you have a point when you say it's clumsy. I think it is clumsy in the sense that so many different versions of it exist that it's hard to know exactly what you're going to get when you attend a performance. I've seen three productions of it already, and in each one I heard some piece of music or scene I'd never heard before.


Yeah, ToH is one of my all-time favorites too. And I've had exactly the same experience - every performance gives you different music! It's kind of frustrating, for me. I want the opera to just settle down and BE ONE THING! On the other hand, it gives hope to all cripples, that such a deformed (and deformable) creature can be such a wonderful thing.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hoffmann said:


> Not meaning to shock anyone, but for me it would be _Parsifal_. I've seen it staged three times - one of which was Jess Thomas' retirement from singing and the other was sung about perfectly and with majesty by Placido Domingo. As beautifully sung and wonderful a performance as Domingo's was, Parsifal is one opera that leaves me cold.


I feel for you. I myself have yet to enjoy Don Giovanni, Nozze di Figaro or Entfuhrung - so I guess I have much to look forward to! I'm not giving up on them, but so far ... nada. Parsifal, oddly, I love to death. I have the Levine/Moll/Meier/Jerusalem video that I haven't looked at in ages, but is wonderful, and the Knappertsbusch 1961 audio that is, well, at least my copy is deeply flawed, but I listen to it again and again. It kind of ... slows me down, so I can take one step at a time again.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> I myself have yet to enjoy Don Giovanni, Nozze di Figaro or *Entfuhrung* - so I guess I have much to look forward to!


that's it, we're not friends anymore 

kidding 

so if it's only those three, does it mean you've already started loving Clemenza or did you just forget about it?


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

katdad said:


> I see from your later post that you've happily come to your senses (ha ha) and enjoy Rigoletto. It's by far my fave Verdi opera and I'm totally enamored with the new Met production, placing the action in 60s mob-controlled Las Vegas. I attended the theater HD showing and immediately bought the DVD when it came out. It's now one of my top opera DVDs. Superb singing throughout, incidentally, in addition to the terrific 20th century staging. A re-set that actually works! (the final trio and the stabbing of Gilda is an amazingly produced scene, for example, and honestly it's the single most intensely produced scene of any opera I've seen, as gripping as any brilliant and tragic movie incident).
> 
> I love Mozart, Marriage of Figaro being my all-time fave opera, but I sadly cannot abide Cosi. The premise is just too oppressive toward women for me to appreciate, and the whole stageplay itself is far too limited in scope (all based on a fool-me fool-you farcical "comedy of errors" that's always bored me anyway, whether it be Shakespearean or American musical comedy).
> 
> ...


It's so interesting how different people we are and how differently we perceive the exact same operas! And yet how easy it is to talk about it. I'm completely opposite - I love Cosi and didn't think that much of the Met's Rigoletto. I mean, it wasn't a wasted effort, it's far better than the tired old thing they replaced it with - but it isn't on my top ten list in any category,a and it doesn't compare to Pavarotti, Milnes and Sutherland.

On the other hand, you make a very interesting point about Cosi - the raw plot is deeply offensive. I don't know if you've ever read The Clown, by Heinrich Boll, but he makes a similar point about the deep importance of sexual things that so many people seem to treat so cavalierly. So I thank you for that.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

deggial said:


> that's it, we're not friends anymore
> 
> kidding
> 
> so if it's only those three, does it mean you've already started loving Clemenza or did you just forget about it?


I can't say I love Clemenza - but Kate Lindsey's performance as Annio, last fall/winter, was so spectacular to me that - well, and Lucy Crowe, and Elina Garanca - that it's an opera I have to consider spending time with in the future. I'm in a relationship, let's say, but I've had a heavy flirtation and I'm contemplating making some changes.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA mentioned Beethoven, my favorite composer too. Fidelio is definitely his worst opera. Some contrarians might argue that, at the same time, it's his best.


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> It's so interesting how different people we are and how differently we perceive the exact same operas! etc etc


And thanks for the feedback, guy. No, I've not read The Clown but I'll put it on my "to do" list. Right now however I've got a stack of mystery books that I'm in process of reviewing, and my editor is asking for the reviews yesterday. And... my publisher is asking me when my new novel will be ready, and I've told her, hopefully by winter, so it'll be set for the spring book fairs and such. Now all I have to do is write, oh, 80-90 thousand more words and I'm done! Eeek!

Re your posting... We all know about "historically informed" performances. I sang one a few years ago when our choral society did the Mozart Requiem in accordance with some new notes and revisions located in the Mozarteum. But sometimes the plot of an opera is too "historic" for modern consumption, too. And as I said, opera is a combination of music and theater, so we can't 100% rely on just the music, otherwise it would be a concert piece.

I think this is why such pieces as Sicilian Vespers tend to fall flat. There's so much dependent upon older Roman Catholic-dominated society that we have to drink a lot of the story line's Kool-Aid to accept the premise.

Reminds me a bit of the old Fellini films, so entrenched in traditional Roman Catholic guilt (with lots of fakey Freudian Oedipal juices tossed in). Now, those who read this, I am NOT speaking ill of the RC church per se. Yes, as an Anglican, I've got issues but that's not the point of this posting. I'm simply talking about the societal pressures effected upon Italian youth during the postwar era, when the government was in shambles, society was recovering from the war, and the only strong force was the church, and perhaps many young Italians were oversaturated with a guilt complex regarding sins committed or simply imagined. Consequently we see Fellini wallowing in this guilt trip.

Understand, this isn't an anti-religious screed. Another example, very secular: Look Homeward Angel by Thomas Wolfe, the hallmark (along with Gatsby) as an icon for the "lost generation" post-WWI. Neo-Platonism, and all that rot. I read "Angel" as a young guy, and adored the angst and socially-acceptable agony of functional alcoholism worn like a badge of honor. Years later I picked up a copy and tried to read it, and after a couple chapters, thought it was the biggest piece of dreck imaginable.

Anyway, back on topic... for me, opera being a mixed art form, part stagecraft, part music, a bad play or staging or concept can spoil the whole thing to a degree. Which is why I just cannot abide Cosi, the play being way too dated and too male chauvinist for me to swallow. It's just like Fellini's 8-1/2 or Wolfe's Angel, too far removed from modern sensibility for me to make the leap of faith and allow suspension of disbelief.

Compare this, for example, to Nozze, where humanism reigns. Rigoletto, where nastiness rules and the treachery and hatred are universal. The Ring, where Wagner's gods also transcend their "ancient" roots and have human motives.

Good as the music may be, opera is both music AND stagecraft (including the story) and that's where Cosi loses it for me.


----------



## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> I feel for you. I myself have yet to enjoy Don Giovanni, Nozze di Figaro or Entfuhrung - so I guess I have much to look forward to! I'm not giving up on them, but so far ... nada. Parsifal, oddly, I love to death. I have the Levine/Moll/Meier/Jerusalem video that I haven't looked at in ages, but is wonderful, and the Knappertsbusch 1961 audio that is, well, at least my copy is deeply flawed, but I listen to it again and again. It kind of ... slows me down, so I can take one step at a time again.


Interesting point! I shudder to think of opera without Don G., Nozze, Entführung, et al. I have to admit that there was a point where Nozze made me roll my eyes - so it took some time - but I've come to realize that it is truly sublime. Same with Don Giovanni, although I don't know Entführung as well, I enjoy it.

_Clemenza di Tito_ I've only seen once and thought it was tedious, so I need to do more work on that. I'm thinking about going to Chicago next season for one of their performances scheduled with Joyce di Donato.

I haven't given up on Parsifal, either, and look forward to giving it another watch/listen.


----------



## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

*This is an interesting question (or not, depending): *
If your absolute favourite singer *ever *was starring in an opera you really couldn´t stomach - what are the odds that their performance (granted it´s amazing, of course) will sway you towards, perhaps, liking it? Someone must have an example of that happening, surely?

I´ve had the opposite. I´ve had one of my favourite pieces ("Pagliacci") totally turn me off by a really, really, really bad Canio. It was so bad I wanted to clobber him afterwards and tell him to never do that again, ever. On that occasion, however, I enjoyed "Cavalleria Rusticana". When I plucked up the courage to see this two-some again (different cast), I nearly fell asleep during "Cavalleria Rusticana" and absolutely looooooved "Pagliacci" - cause Canio was out-of-this-world!


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hmm ... so let's see: Joan Sutherland as (I guess) Aliieja in From the House of the Dead? Or Karita Mattila in Pique Dame - which I saw here in NYC a few years ago. GGGGGGgggggaahhhhhh!!!!!! (horrible retching sounds, possibly by Linda Blair) I had four tickets and threw three away. I had such high hopes, you see, and when I discovered how incomprehensible the plot actually was, and what a bad opera it was, I was really disgusted. I've since read the libretto carefully and discussed it at length with the opera's partisans and come to the conclusion that I was right the first time.

Now, if I saw Karita Mattila in an opera I hadn't spent much time on, she certainly might help me to realize an opera was better than I thought. It just didn't happen in that case. And I did actually see Peter Mattei, one of my favorite baritones, in From the House of the Dead, and he didn't redeem it one bit.

I'm sure I could have the same experience as you in the other direction, though. See a performance of an opera you love with a singer you have high hopes of, only to find that it's all wrong? I could get a little frustrated.


----------



## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Siegfried Jerusalem "sold" me on Wagner's operas. Before I heard him, I thought I couldn't stand Wagner's music and anyone/anything connected with it. While I still prefer some other composers, I certainly don't dislike Wagner's operas and enjoy listening to them.

On the other hand, there have been some tenors who did such horrible things to Florestan that I would have happily lent Pizarro a little help.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Operafocus said:


> *This is an interesting question (or not, depending): *
> If your absolute favourite singer *ever *was starring in an opera you really couldn´t stomach - what are the odds that their performance (granted it´s amazing, of course) will sway you towards, perhaps, liking it? Someone must have an example of that happening, surely?


fave singer would have trouble singing an unsuited repertoire (ie, lyrical singer singing a dramatic role), isn't it?


----------



## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

deggial said:


> fave singer would have trouble singing an unsuited repertoire (ie, lyrical singer singing a dramatic role), isn't it?


I don't know who your favourite singer is, or which opera you loathe the most, but surely there's more than one contender in both categories?


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

what do you mean?

I'm fond of the lyrical repertoire, most of my fave singers are lyric and my least fave operas are dramatic ones.


----------



## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

Well, then this experiment probably won't be suitable for you


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> _Clemenza di Tito_ I've only seen once and thought it was tedious, so I need to do more work on that. I'm thinking about going to Chicago next season for one of their performances scheduled with Joyce di Donato.


if you like JDD you'll be fine, even though I think she's better in Rossini and Handel. She and Majeski look like they'd have good chemistry, which should lessen the tedium.


----------



## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

Although I love Verdi's operas for their masterly combination of grand spectacle and tranquil intimacy, I have always had a problem with Falstaff. I own it on DVD from the Metropolitan Opera, but in my view it simply lacks the features of Verdi's true masterpieces, like Nabucco, Rigoletto, Il Trovatore, La Traviata, Aida, and Otello. There are not sufficient memorable melodies in it for me, and Falstaff's vocal line seems more shouted than sung, at least in the performances and recordings I've listened to.


----------



## mchriste (Aug 16, 2013)

Another Verdi fan here but the opera I can't seem to get into is... *Otello*!
(I know, I know, blasphemy but it's still true)

I'm not sure why. Perhaps because it's just not as fun to listen to as his other masterpieces?

Now, I don't think it's a bad opera by any means, it's just the one I like the least of the ones I know, which also include Nabucco (criminally underrated IMO), Rigoletto, Il Trovatore, La Traviata, I Vespri Siciliani, Don Carlos, Aida, Simon Boccanegra and Falstaff.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mchriste said:


> Nabucco (criminally underrated IMO)


that is is. It's also Bellini on steroids (a good thing in my book).


----------



## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

My favorite composers are Wagner and Verdi. Respectively (and respectfully) for me: Parsifal and Stiffelio.


----------



## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

It's probably my absolute favourite soprano aria, with the most moving interpreter being Leontyne Price.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

LouisMasterMusic said:


> Although I love Verdi's operas for their masterly combination of grand spectacle and tranquil intimacy, I have always had a problem with Falstaff. I own it on DVD from the Metropolitan Opera, but in my view it simply lacks the features of Verdi's true masterpieces, like Nabucco, Rigoletto, Il Trovatore, La Traviata, Aida, and Otello. There are not sufficient memorable melodies in it for me, and Falstaff's vocal line seems more shouted than sung, at least in the performances and recordings I've listened to.


I have the Tito Gobbi version, I think, but it's been a long time since I've listened to it. When I first heard it I thought it was absolute genius. A really new thing musically. It seems to me that Verdi decided that both he and his listeners were tired of the old scheme: taking a melody, developing it over a number of measures, repeating it once or twice for the faint of wit. Instead, he starts one melody after another and doesn't develop any of them. He seems to be saying that's the best part of the melody anyway - why ruin it by adding a lot of nonsense to it? And it turns out he's got a million of them, so the opera is no shorter.

Well, I haven't studied it carefully, it may be that something else entirely is going on here. But I was very impressed when I first heard it. But it never grabbed me the way the operas I "love" do, and so I never listened to it over and over for months at a stretch.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mchriste said:


> Another Verdi fan here but the opera I can't seem to get into is... *Otello*!
> (I know, I know, blasphemy but it's still true)
> 
> I'm not sure why. Perhaps because it's just not as fun to listen to as his other masterpieces?
> ...


Confession time: I don't listen to Otello either. I love it, the Jon Vickers/Renata Tebaldi video I mean, but for listening? I can't imagine enjoying just listening to it.

And you know what else: I keep working at Don Giovanni, and I keep getting halfway through the first act and thinking "what utter cr*p" ... !! Two days ago I finally tried the classic Eberhard Wachter - Luigi Alva - Joan Sutherland etc etc version, hoping it would get past my armor and reveal the opera in all its glory, and unfortunately all it revealed was some rather clumsy tunesmithing by Mozart, and the thought that perhaps he was pressed for time.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Confession time: I don't listen to Otello either. I love it, the Jon Vickers/Renata Tebaldi video I mean, but for listening? I can't imagine enjoying just listening to it.
> 
> And you know what else: I keep working at Don Giovanni, and I keep getting halfway through the first act and thinking "what utter cr*p" ... !! Two days ago I finally tried the classic Eberhard Wachter - Luigi Alva - Joan Sutherland etc etc version, hoping it would get past my armor and reveal the opera in all its glory, and unfortunately all it revealed was some rather clumsy tunesmithing by Mozart, and the thought that perhaps he was pressed for time.


Mozart was not capable of clumsy tune smithing!


----------



## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

So what do you suggest I do about Falstaff?


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ put it aside and give it a try every once in a while when you're feeling adventurous. It's not like you need to start enjoying it yesterday, is it?


----------



## operashoppejim (Aug 20, 2013)

I think my favorite composer is also Verdi, but Puccini is right up there too! My least favorite Verdi opera, by far it is Traviata. Violetta annoys me to no end! And I just can't feel sorry for her in act IV. after all, she is a high-class prostitute!


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

operashoppejim said:


> after all, she is a high-class prostitute!


so? does that preclude her from a happy ending?


----------



## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

deggial said:


> so? does that preclude her from a happy ending?





operashoppejim said:


> I think my favorite composer is also Verdi, but Puccini is right up there too! My least favorite Verdi opera, by far it is Traviata. Violetta annoys me to no end! And I just can't feel sorry for her in act IV. after all, she is a high-class prostitute!


She would have needed to get a professional license as a masseuse for that.


----------



## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

Not really, deggial, but I've been given advice on Falstaff already. I appreciate your help just as much, though.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> Richard Wagner. Not his worst (I still like it better than the three first operas), but I find Die Meistersinger von Nuernberg way less interesting than most Wagner enthusiasts.


And long-winded for its story and materials.


----------



## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Without having seen it, I'm going to go ahead and guess that _Die Feen_ kind of sucks.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Verdi is without doubt my favourite opera composer, and I'd find it hard to actively dislike any of his operas. Why, even in the early ones, I can delight in finding the seeds which grew into the fruit of his later great works. So, rather than choose a worst, I would have to go for a least favourite, which would have to be one of the early operas and I'd go for *Obero* as being the least Verdi-like and most formulaic of his operas.

From *Il Trovatore* onwards I would find it difficult to choose a favourite, as I tend to like whichever one I am listening to or watching at the time. *Les Verpres Siciliennes* seems to me to be the most uneven of them.


----------



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

ahammel said:


> Without having seen it, I'm going to go ahead and guess that _Die Feen_ kind of sucks.


and I would add Das Liebesverbot.


----------



## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

I'm a bit late but on the topic of Verdi I've not been particularly impressed by Attila.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Revenant said:


> She would have needed to get a professional license as a masseuse for that.


haha! how did I not see the trap I fell in? haha!

_(poor Violetta)_


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Rosenkavalier (just such a letdown after the big sexy operas) and Don Giovanni (moments - but as a whole, no thanks)


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

DG, the worst? have you heard La finta semplice or Apollo & Hyacinthus? or is DG the worst of _the good ones_? it's still way better than Idomeneo


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

If a composer has only one opera, is it both his best and his worst? But if that opera comes in 2 or 3 versions then the question becomes rather difficult.


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Worst of the well known ones - I quite like Mozart's opera seria


----------



## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

I don't think Verdi wrote a "worst" of anything. But of his big, mature operas Aida is the one I least prefer.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

alan davis said:


> I don't think Verdi wrote a "worst" of anything. But of his big, mature operas Aida is the one I least prefer.


I often feel the same. I admire *Aida* but I don't love it. It never moves me in the way *Otello* does or *Don Carlo*, for all its imperfections.


----------



## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

deggial said:


> DG, the worst? have you heard La finta semplice or Apollo & Hyacinthus? or is DG the worst of _the good ones_? it's still way better than Idomeneo


Idomeneo's a masterpiece, though, so DG would have to be one of the greatest of all time(which it is)...at least..to anyone with a set of ears who's not smoking something extra special way up there beyond the rainbow.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

trazom said:


> Idomeneo's a masterpiece, though


I've been very willing to succumb to the greatness of Idomeneo but so far without success. Which recording do you recommend?


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Since the OP's last line in his post says,

"Does your favorite composer have a *popular opera *that you just can't stand? "

And my favorite operas are by Wagner, I would say there is no worst.
They're all masterpieces.


----------



## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

My favorite composer is Puccini, with Wagner just a little bit behind. Puccini's worst *popular opera* is _Tosca_. His worst opera overall is probably _Edgar_. Wagner's worst opera overall is probably one of the early ones, like _Liebesverbot_ or _Die Feen_. Of Wagner's *popular operas*, the worst is _Der Ring des Nibelungen_.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> My favorite composer is Puccini, with Wagner just a little bit behind. Puccini's worst *popular opera* is _Tosca_. His worst opera overall is probably _Edgar_. Wagner's worst opera overall is probably one of the early ones, like _Liebesverbot_ or _Die Feen_. Of Wagner's *popular operas*, *the worst is Der Ring des Nibelungen*.


....................


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Itullian said:


> ....................


May have been mentioned, but Fidelio is certainly Beethoven's worst opera. Though of course...


----------



## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Itullian said:


> ....................


Not that they're _bad_ operas, they're just not my favorite thing by him. They're too macho for me. There's _a lot_ of good stuff, but then there comes along a part like _The ride of the valkyries_ and I just start laughing.


----------

