# Has nazi association affected the legacy of specific composers / musicians?



## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Do you think that Wagner still has the Hitler bubble around him in public perception? Does Nazi association affect your personal taste ever?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Responding to the thread title: The association did Phitsner some harm. (See, I can't even spell his name.)


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## SottoVoce (Jul 29, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Responding to the thread title: The association did Phitsner some harm. (See, I can't even spell his name.)


I'd be suprised if people even remember him for that; at least some notoriety would garner some curiosity, but people often ignore him entirely. It's very unfortunate, as I think his music is very beautiful.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> Do you think that Wagner still has the Hitler bubble around him in public perception? Does Nazi association affect your personal taste ever?


What Nazi association for goodness sake?


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## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

I'm not sure of the political correctness of this thread, but I'll bite...

*Richard Strauss* was associated with that dark period, same as Wagner, and furthermore he was _alive _and _openly supportive_ (or am I worng here?). Yet, we play Strauss' works and operas all over (save maybe in Israel). I don't think that so-called association has done anything to diminish the popul;arity of "timeless" works - though I can't say all of Strauss' works fall in the "timeless" category...


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

moody said:


> What Nazi association for goodness sake?


For real? Regardless of the fact that Wagner was not alive during Hitler's lifetime, he and his music has long been associated with the Nazi regime. I have met legions of people....more than 100 in my life that will not even listen to a German language opera just because of it.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

itywltmt said:


> I'm not sure of the political correctness of this thread, but I'll bite...
> 
> *Richard Strauss* was associated with that dark period, same as Wagner, and furthermore he was _alive _and _openly supportive_ (or am I worng here?). Yet, we play Strauss' works and operas all over (save maybe in Israel). I don't think that so-called association has done anything to diminish the popul;arity of "timeless" works - though I can't say all of Strauss' works fall in the "timeless" category...


There is nothing politically incorrect about the thread. Everyone so far is look very deep into it, considering whether the composer was alive, in support of, contributed to the nazi regime.

All I'm intending to propose here is to ask is does the nazi-association with certain composers still damage their legacy in any way. It's fact that for earlier generations, certain composers were most definitely affected by nazi-association. I am asking if this still exists today with younger audiences.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

itywltmt said:


> I'm not sure of the political correctness of this thread, but I'll bite...
> 
> *Richard Strauss* was associated with that dark period, same as Wagner, and furthermore he was _alive _and _openly supportive_ (or am I worng here?).


It's not quite that simple, if this section of the Wikipedia article on Strauss is correct:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Strauss#Strauss_in_Nazi_Germany*


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

It never affects my listening of a composers music. Why? Because regardless of a composers beliefs or personality, it is impossible for sound waves to be immoral.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Wagner is for self-loathing jews.






In all seriousness, I don't know about wider perception, but if I were to base my literary reading only on those writers who I felt had social ideas equivalent to mine, I would read nothing pre-20th century, and little since then. Given that music doesn't even record ideas, I think it's silly to be prejudiced in this way. If it was a living Nazi composer, then I could understand.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Had Wagner not been anti-Semitic then who knows as to who the Third Reich would have chosen as their musical ideological role model instead. Hitler loved the works of the Jewish Imre Kalman to the degree that he offered him 'honorary Aryan' status (he refused). Other composers were known in varying degrees for their anti-Semitic views (I was as much disappointed as surprised to discover that Percy Grainger was one of them) whether uttered publicly or mentioned in private correspondence but I think drew comparatively little attention to themselves because Wagner was the one who opened his mouth to more resounding effect. Wagner was often an embittered man - had he not been anti-Semitic then he would no doubt have vented his spleen in some other similarly unhealthy way but I for one don't feel guilty, uneasy or 'tainted' when listening to his operas.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

It generally doesn't cross my mind unless someone brings it up. I don't think Wagner wanted to kill Jews, and I don't think Strauss would have been a member of the Nazi Party had it not been for the circumstances he found himself in at the time. 

Someone who doesn't seem to come up very often in these kinds of discussions is Karajan, who supposedly used his status as a Nazi Party member specifically to get in to high profile conducting positions. Now, I know this is highly debatable (for instance; evidence suggests that while he applied for membership and was registered he never picked up his membership card) but that's what makes it a much more interesting and provocative subject. With Karajan being such a beloved "superstar" conductor who is even relatively well known in popular culture, it's interesting to note that his Nazi affiliation was not so much of a hindrance to him after the war, the short ban on his performances in Vienna by Soviet occupation forces notwithstanding.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> There is nothing politically incorrect about the thread. Everyone so far is look very deep into it, considering whether the composer was alive, in support of, contributed to the nazi regime.
> 
> All I'm intending to propose here is to ask is does the nazi-association with certain composers still damage their legacy in any way. It's fact that for earlier generations, certain composers were most definitely affected by nazi-association. I am asking if this still exists today with younger audiences.


Wagner didn't do much associating with Nazis fairly obviosly, but they associated themselves with his music. Wagner had some fairly obnoxious thoughts of his own towards the Jewish people, but so did half the Kings of England who also forced them to subsidize their crusades. The orchestras in Israel would not I believe play Wagner's music at a certain period and who could blame them? But I believe that Barenboim prevailed upon them to lift the ban. Richard Strauss however was on good terms with the powers in Germany at the time, certainly his favourite conductor Clemens Krauss and his wife Viorica Ursuliac were staunch Nazi's. Incidentally, I was born in 1938 so have grown up with this whole thing. Please correct any mistakes in this post.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> It generally doesn't cross my mind unless someone brings it up. I don't think Wagner wanted to kill Jews, and I don't think Strauss would have been a member of the Nazi Party had it not been for the circumstances he found himself in at the time.
> 
> Someone who doesn't seem to come up very often in these kinds of discussions is Karajan, who supposedly used his status as a Nazi Party member specifically to get in to high profile conducting positions. Now, I know this is highly debatable (for instance; evidence suggests that while he applied for membership and was registered he never picked up his membership card) but that's what makes it a much more interesting and provocative subject. With Karajan being such a beloved "superstar" conductor who is even relatively well known in popular culture along, it's interesting to note that his Nazi affiliation was not so much of a hindrance to him after the war, the short ban on his performances in Vienna by Soviet occupation forces notwithstanding.


You are right, but Elizabeth Schwartkopf was a whole different kettle of fish, she was a complete supporter and a section leader in the Hitler Youth--a most unpleasant woman I always thought. In fact the Karajan thing does come up a lot and has done for years.


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## Kryten (Jan 23, 2012)

I'm with violadude on this one - it's impossible to determine a person's politics from their music alone (unless, of course, they make it blindingly obvious). While the cases surrounding Strauss, Karajan and Böhm are subject to debate, it's by no means implausible that their affiliation was little more than an Orwellian survival technique: join the party, love the party but keep your true feelings to yourself... you never know when the Gestapo are watching.


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## AmbiguousFigures (Jan 25, 2012)

Shostakovich is who my brain would immediately jump too, although he wasn't directly effected by the Nazi regime, he was thrown in jail by the communist in the USSR, and I know that had a profound impact on his string quartets.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Since Wagner was *openly* and *unabashedly* anti-semitic--as was his wife and family even *after* his death--as a Jew {non-obervant but born of a Jewish mother}, I have little admiration for him or his music. Honestly, though, even without that element added to the mix, I don't think I'd much like his music regardless.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Here are some famous composers/musicians associated with Nazism. 

Wagner

Bruckner

R. Strauss

Furtwangler

Karajan

In Bruckner's case, his music, according to the Nazis, represents the Aryan superiority. Bruckner's 7th symphony is the unofficial theme of the Nazis, frequently played in the Nazi Germany..

God, those Nazis, are really awful people..


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

DavidMahler said:


> ...Does Nazi association affect your personal taste ever?


Adolf Hitler liked the German Shepherd dog. Do you also think that will affect how well liked that breed of dog is around the world? What about apple juice? I think Hitler drank a lot of apple juice as substitute to beer in public (for appearance reasons). Do you also think apple juice will be affected similarly?


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Death to the apples
eliminate the juice
orange power
orange power

GOD DAMN IT THIS ******* WORD FILTER **** YOU


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

peeyaj said:


> Here are some famous composers/musicians associated with Nazism.
> 
> Wagner
> 
> ...


Furtwaengler was cleared of any wrongdoing--you should try to get hold of his seretary's book "The Baton and the Jackboot", when she escaped from Germany she did the same job for Thomas Beecham.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I do sometimes think about this, more than necessary perhaps.

It may not be Wagner himself, but his descendants did associate themselves with Hitler's regime. Of course, we can't really blame him for that. His wife, Cosima, was also anti-Semitic, I think she tried to block Mahler from getting the top job at Vienna's opera house. But after he converted to Christianity, his Jewish faith became irrelevant, he got the job. That's how things worked back then, you had to convert and join the majority to get somewhere in the music industry.

I don't have much respect for R. Strauss as a man, neither did Toscanini. Strauss conducted at Bayreuth for the Nazis after Toscanini left when they took power. However, I do think Strauss was not a racist but more of an opportunist. He had Jewish relatives who he tried to protect.

But I basically respect these guys who stood up to the Nazis. Eg. Hindemith, who tried to stay and work there, but due to his music that threw a gauntlet in the Nazi's face - eg. the Mathis der Maler Symphony - and also having Jewish friends and having a Jewish wife, he had to leave. Like many of them, his royalties where stopped, his main income as a musician illegally withdrawn by the Nazis, his music banned.

Then there was Kodaly who openly said that the Hungarian Nazis were murderers. As a result he had to go into hiding for several months as they wanted him dead. Kodaly was what I call a real Christian in practice, he saw racism of any kind as a huge injustice, no matter who was the target.

Then K.A. Hartmann, who stopped publishing and performing his music in Nazi occupied lands. He basically went on strike against the Nazis, although he sat out the war in Germany. He refused to take part in the musical life of the country as a protest.

In contrast, R. Strauss and Orff did commissions for the Nazis. Though as I said, they were opportunists. There is some evidence that Orff was a double agent, involved in the underground White Rose movement working against the Nazis.

It's a complicated picture. But a Wagnerian I knew used to say that many times when listening to his idol's music, he couldn't deny it came across, a lot of it, as the soundtrack to the invasion of Poland...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Not mentioned yet I think, but Austrian composer Franz Schmidt suffered more than most from his Nazi sympathies in terms of subsequent attention. Even for him, I don't mind as I can decouple the music form the composer's prefereces. Let alone for Wagner.

Blog post on Schmidt.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Adolf Hitler liked the German Shepherd dog. Do you also think that will affect how well liked that breed of dog is around the world? What about apple juice? I think Hitler drank a lot of apple juice as substitute to beer in public (for appearance reasons). Do you also think apple juice will be affected similarly?


But it's not the same. Hitler also breathed oxygen.

In the case of a few musicians and composers, it's impossible to deny their historical relationship, even if they had no control over the association. It still affects many people today. It's not like Apple Juice.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> But it's not the same. Hitler also breathed oxygen.
> 
> In the case of a few musicians and composers, it's impossible to deny their historical relationship, even if they had no control over the association. It still affects many people today. It's not like Apple Juice.


What does their personal life regarding Nazi's have to do with the music they wrote down? And why should it affect my listening of that music?


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

violadude said:


> What does their personal life regarding Nazi's have to do with the music they wrote down? And why should it affect my listening of that music?


In my opinion, it shouldn't. It doesn't for me. But the thread is just asking whether it does for you. I know a lot of people who it does affect.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

peeyaj said:


> Here are some famous composers/musicians associated with Nazism.
> 
> Wagner
> 
> ...


Carl Orff is one who could be added to the list:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_orff#The_Nazi_era*


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

anti-semitism dates back at least to Roman times (and further) and was endemic in Western Europe since the destruction of the Temple in 70 C.E. and perhaps since the great 'diaspora' of 6 B.C.E. - we would have to burn so much great art if we conducted a witch-hunt for artists who might have become members of the Nazi Party if they'd only lived in the right century. I easily separate Wagner the composer from Wagner the despicable worm. I do not, however, own any prints of the f****** water colorist from Austria.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Sid James- I don't have much respect for R. Strauss as a man, neither did Toscanini. Strauss conducted at Bayreuth for the Nazis after Toscanini left when they took power. However, I do think Strauss was not a racist but more of an opportunist. He had Jewish relatives who he tried to protect.

In March 1933, when Richard Strauss was 68, Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party rose to power. *Strauss never joined the Nazi party, and studiously avoided Nazi forms of greeting.* For reasons of expediency, however, he was initially drawn into cooperating with the early Nazi regime in the hope that Hitler - an ardent Wagnerian and music lover who had admired Strauss's work since viewing Salome in 1907 - would promote German art and culture. *Strauss's need to protect his Jewish daughter-in-law and Jewish grandchildren also motivated his behavior, in addition to his determination to preserve and conduct the music of banned composers such as Mahler and Claude Debussy.*

*In 1933, Strauss wrote in his private notebook:*
*I consider the Streicher-Goebbels Jew-baiting as a disgrace to German honour, as evidence of incompetence - the basest weapon of untalented, lazy mediocrity against a higher intelligence and greater talent.*

Meanwhile, far from being an admirer of Strauss's work, Joseph Goebbels maintained expedient cordiality with Strauss only for a period. Goebbels wrote in his diary:
Unfortunately we still need him, but one day we shall have our own music and then we shall have no further need of this decadent neurotic.

Strauss was on the cover of TIME in 1927 and 1938.

Nevertheless, because of Strauss's international eminence, in November 1933 he was appointed to the post of president of the Reichsmusikkammer, the State Music Bureau. Strauss, who had lived through numerous political regimes and had no interest in politics, decided to accept the position but to remain apolitical, a decision which would eventually become untenable. He wrote to his family, "I made music under the Kaiser, and under Ebert. I'll survive under this one as well."[10] In 1935 he wrote in his 
journal:

_In November of 1933, the minister Goebbels nominated me president of the Reichsmusikkammer without obtaining my prior agreement. I was not consulted. I accepted this honorary office because I hoped that I would be able to do some good and prevent worse misfortunes, if from now onwards German musical life were going to be, as it was said, "reorganized" by amateurs and ignorant place-seekers._

Strauss privately scorned Goebbels and called him "a pipsqueak."[11] Strauss wanted Goebbels' cooperation, however, in extending the German music copyright laws from 30 years to 50 years, so in 1933 Strauss dedicated an orchestral song, Das Bächlein ("The Little Brook") to him.

*Strauss attempted to ignore Nazi bans on performances of works by Debussy, Mahler, and Mendelssohn. He also continued to work on a comic opera, Die schweigsame Frau, with his Jewish friend and librettist Stefan Zweig. When the opera was premiered in Dresden in 1935, Strauss insisted that Zweig's name appear on the theatrical billing, much to the ire of the Nazi regime. Hitler and Goebbels avoided attending the opera, and it was halted after three performances and subsequently banned by the Third Reich.*

On 17 June 1935, Strauss wrote a letter to Stefan Zweig, in which he stated:
Do you believe I am ever, in any of my actions, guided by the thought that I am 'German'? Do you suppose Mozart was consciously 'Aryan' when he composed? I recognise only two types of people: those who have talent and those who have none.

This letter to Zweig was intercepted by the Gestapo and sent to Hitler. Strauss was subsequently dismissed as Reichsmusikkammer president in 1935. _The 1936 Berlin Summer Olympics nevertheless used Strauss's Olympische Hymne, which he had composed in 1934._ Strauss's seeming relationship with the Nazis in the 1930s attracted criticism from some noted musicians, including Arturo Toscanini. When Strauss accepted the presidency of the Reichsmusikkammer in 1933, Toscanini had said, "To Strauss the composer I take off my hat; to Strauss the man I put it back on again." *Much of Strauss's motivation in his conduct during the Third Reich was, however, to protect his Jewish daughter-in-law Alice and his Jewish grandchildren from persecution. Both of his grandsons were bullied at school, but Strauss used his considerable influence to prevent the boys or their mother from being sent to concentration camps.*

*In 1938, when the entire nation was preparing for war, Strauss created Friedenstag (Peace Day), a one-act opera set in a besieged fortress during the Thirty Years War. The work is essentially a hymn to peace and a thinly veiled criticism of the Third Reich.* With its contrasts between freedom and enslavement, war and peace, light and dark, this work has a close affinity with Beethoven's Fidelio. Productions of the opera ceased shortly after the outbreak of war in 1939.

When his Jewish daughter-in-law Alice was placed under house arrest in Garmisch-Partenkirchen in 1938, Strauss used his connections in Berlin, including the Berlin intendant Heinz Tietjen, to secure her safety. He drove to the Theresienstadt concentration camp in order to argue, albeit unsuccessfully, for the release of his son Franz's Jewish mother-in-law, Marie von Grab. Strauss also wrote several letters to the SS pleading for the release of her children who were also held in camps; his letters were ignored.

In 1942, Strauss moved with his family back to Vienna, where Alice and her children could be protected by Baldur von Schirach, the Gauleiter of Vienna. *Strauss was unable, however, to protect his Jewish relatives completely; in early 1944, while Strauss was away, Alice and his son Franz were abducted by the Gestapo and imprisoned for two nights. Only Strauss's personal intervention at this point was able to save them, and he was able to take the two of them back to Garmisch, where they remained under house arrest until the end of the war.*

Strauss completed the composition of Metamorphosen, a work for 23 solo strings, in 1945. The title and inspiration for the work comes from a profoundly self-examining poem by Goethe, which Strauss had considered setting as a choral work. Generally regarded as one of the masterpieces of the string repertoire, Metamorphosen contains Strauss's most sustained outpouring of tragic emotion. *Conceived and written during the blackest days of World War II, the piece is commonly seen as expression of Strauss's mourning of, among other things, the destruction of German culture - including the bombing of every great opera house in the nation;* although this view may not be exactly accurate.[19] At the end of the war, Strauss wrote in his private diary:

_The most terrible period of human history is at an end, the twelve year reign of bestiality, ignorance and anti-culture under the greatest criminals, during which Germany's 2000 years of cultural evolution met its doom._

In April 1945, Strauss was apprehended by American soldiers at his Garmisch estate. As he descended the staircase he announced to Lieutenant Milton Weiss of the U.S. Army, "I am Richard Strauss, the composer of Rosenkavalier and Salome." Lt. Weiss, who, as it happened, was also a musician, nodded in recognition. An 'Off Limits' sign was subsequently placed on the lawn to protect Strauss.[21] The American oboist John de Lancie, who knew Strauss's orchestral writing for oboe thoroughly, was in the U.S. Army unit which occupied the area; he asked Strauss to compose an oboe concerto. Initially dismissive of the idea, Strauss completed this late masterpiece, his Oboe Concerto, before the end of the year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Strauss

Yep. A clear-cut case of a truly horrible man. He remains in Germany in order to protect his family and make an attempt at preserving culture in Germany. He refuses to join the party or acknowledge the "heil Hitler" salute. He continues to conduct music by composers officially banned by the Nazis including Debussy, Mendelssohn, and Mahler. He continues to work with his Jewish librettist and to insist upon full recognition of his authorship. He even composers a brief opera critical of the Third Reich. In spite of this he is criticized by those who have fled from the safety of their cushy posts in the United States.

Schoenberg, in contrast, officially changed his religion to Lutheranism in 1898 in order to improve his chances of earning official commissions. He immediately flees Germany in 1933 upon the rise of the Nazi regime, and only then converts back to Judaism. While Strauss, already in his 70s, is struggling to protect his family from the Gestapo and making an effort to preserve some semblance of culture in Germany, Schoenberg is teaching college classes, and having suddenly discovered his Jewish roots, is composing music on Jewish themes from the comfort of the Hollywood hills. I somewhat wonder whose actions are closer to cowardice? I think I do know, however, which man I would have wanted on my side.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

In the case of a few musicians and composers, it's impossible to deny their historical relationship, even if they had no control over the association. It still affects many people today.

Or it could be just one more lame attempt by DM to prove the non-existent superiority of Mahler over Wagner.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> In the case of a few musicians and composers, it's impossible to deny their historical relationship, even if they had no control over the association. It still affects many people today.
> 
> Or it could be just one more lame attempt by DM to prove the non-existent superiority of Mahler over Wagner.


Cute, but not really, I'm serious. I think some people will always be associated with it unfortunately for them.


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## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

No but my personal dislike of anything that is 24 hours long does affect my taste .


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> ...
> Schoenberg, in contrast, officially changed his religion to Lutheranism in 1898 in order to improve his chances of earning official commissions. He immediately flees Germany in 1933 upon the rise of the Nazi regime, and only then converts back to Judaism. While Strauss, already in his 70s, is struggling to protect his family from the Gestapo and making an effort to preserve some semblance of culture in Germany, Schoenberg is teaching college classes, and having suddenly discovered his Jewish roots, is composing music on Jewish themes from the comfort of the Hollywood hills. I somewhat wonder whose actions are closer to cowardice? I think I do know, however, which man I would have wanted on my side.


I accept what you said about R. Strauss, I will not and cannot dispute that. I did not say that he was a Nazi. I did not say he believed in their racist ideologies. All I said that he was an opportunist, which he basically said he was, after the war. I read an interview with him in a source I forget now. I may have to dig it up, but it may have been in a library book. Basically, when asked why he didn't leave Germany with the rise of the Nazis, Strauss did go into his family issues, but he also said something with alarming honesty. Something to the effect that (to paraphrase) {I could not have gotten much work in the USA, with only 2 major - eg. professional - opera houses. I had to stay in Germany where there were a dozen or more big opera companies}.

If Strauss himself accepted his opportunism, why don't you, stlukes? Even as a fan? You argue for separation of politics and music - well DO IT then.

As for what you say about Schoenberg, I did not mention him. Seems like there's an agenda of sorts there. Elevating one guy and putting another in the toilet. Quite tasteless, imo. But anyway.

The point is that once you get into bed with monsters, you end up either becoming a monster, or being eaten by them. It's like big time crooks always start off as small time crooks. As kids, stealing lollies from the local shop, then by the time they're 20, stealing cars, then when they're older robbing banks or doing other big time stuff.

Same with maintaining human dignity. Many people opposed the Nazis. Some where killed for their efforts. Others like K.A. Hartmann who I talked about above, REALLY didn't get involved.

The only caveat I'd say is that Strauss said that Goebbels gave him a phone call and appointed him - whether he wanted to or not - to be the figureheard of the Reichsmusikkammer or whatever it's called (the Nazi's German Music Union, basically). Strauss said he could not reject the appointment. Well, fair enough. There are many sides to this story and maybe better to forget about it and just enjoy the music. Of course, it's not hurtful to know about what happened. The saying goes, those who forget history are condemned to repeat it...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Charles Mackerras said that in East European countries that had been invaded by the Nazis, after the war these countries did not want to promote or play virtually anything German, including Beethoven.

So he said it had a positive effect. The Czech repertoire was expanded by orchestras there not only playing lesser known works by Dvorak and Smetana - already popular there - but discovery and promotion of other more recent composers. Namely Janacek, whose music Mackerras helped to promote after 1945. & I'd guess also those Czech composers who where murdered by the Nazis. Also others who were still alive back then, like Martinu.

So I guess that the de-Nazification of Czechoslovakia (in terms of music), and probably other East European countries, had some positive effect in giving a boost to their own repertoire.

Of course, this stigma with German music no longer exists, as far as I know. It was banned in Israel for decades, eg. Wagner, but Daniel Barenboim, their native son, made it okay for Wagner to be played there, and that was a couple of decades ago at least. 

& Bernstein revived Mahler, bought him back to Vienna of all places, in the 1960's. Before that, not many conductors gave Mahler such a huge profile. Ever since Bruno Walter conducted that legendary concert in 1938, not long before the Nazi invasion of Austria, Mahler was somewhat neglected. The Nazis wanted to deny his legacy. & Bernstein among others got his reputation back on track, but it did take quite a while after the war was ended...


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

The Nazis also promoted/used music by Johann Sebastian Bach but to a much lesser extent than Wagner's and Bruckner's. How come people don't seem to have a "problem" with that?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^What the Nazis did with music, what music they promoted and which they banned, comes across as arbitrary to me, a good part of it at least. There was not much logic to it at all.

Eg. the Strauss waltz dynasty were of Jewish ancestry, coming from Hungary, but their music was not banned. Mendelssohn's music on the other hand was banned, his monument in Liepzig destroyed by the Nazis. Where is the consistency in this? 

& neither Mendelssohn or the Strauss family composers practiced Judaism. A big fault in the Nazi's distorted ideology was that Judaism was a race, not a religion. That is clearly wrong, at least when talking of the Jews in the diaspora who had been living for generations outside of what we now call Israel. These people mixed with the peoples of the countries they moved to. I see Judaism more of a religion or cultural group, not necessarily an ethnic group. Depends what one means by Jewish, and for the Nazis it meant one thing, it was an ethnic group or "race."


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

The difference between Wagner and other composers who were almost certainly anti-Semitic (looking at you Bach, Chopin, Liszt, Mussorgsky, Schubert, Schumann) is that Wagner was a much more prominent public figure and a profuse writer, and as such we know a great deal more about Wagner than any of them. In addition to his many books and essays (and reading these you get the impression that Wagner was the type of man to write down whatever was on his mind without thinking it through), we have hundreds of Wagner's private letters he never expected to see the light of day, and years worth of Cosima's diary entries detailing private exchanges between her and Wagner (and from which we can say without misogyny that Cosima was the greater anti-semite). Add the fact that he was Hitler's favorite, spurring academics to throughly comb through all of this literature for traces of fault, personally I think Wagner's anti-Semitism, reprehensible as it is, is overplayed. There's more blatant anti-Semitism in _St Matthew's Passion_ than any of Wagner's operas.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I accept what you said about R. Strauss, I will not and cannot dispute that. I did not say that he was a Nazi. I did not say he believed in their racist ideologies. All I said that he was an opportunist, which he basically said he was, after the war. I read an interview with him in a source I forget now. I may have to dig it up, but it may have been in a library book. Basically, when asked why he didn't leave Germany with the rise of the Nazis, Strauss did go into his family issues, but he also said something with alarming honesty. Something to the effect that (to paraphrase) {I could not have gotten much work in the USA, with only 2 major - eg. professional - opera houses. I had to stay in Germany where there were a dozen or more big opera companies}.

That is quite likely a consideration as well. It is noted that Karajan also likely stayed in Germany in part because his career opportunities in the US were limited at best. In Germany he was a rising young star. In the US he was an unknown. Was he to sacrifice all that he had worked for for the sake of making a meaningless political gesture and then spend the rest of his career stuck conducting the Omaha Symphony or teaching the all-girl's school in Kalamazoo? How many here would be willing to make such a sacrifice?

If Strauss himself accepted his opportunism, why don't you, stlukes? Even as a fan? You argue for separation of politics and music - well DO IT then.

As for what you say about Schoenberg, I did not mention him.

You didn't mention him... but I did. You are quick to accuse Strauss, who you admittedly have mixed feelings about, of opportunism, then why not your man, Schoenberg? Schoenberg denounced his own religion in order to increase his opportunities as a composer and teacher. He only "rediscovered" his Jewish roots when it was both safe and convenient to do so. Some might even accuse him of only returning to the Jewish fold and churning out Jewish themed works in order to play up the image of the Jewish refugee from the comfort of the Hollywood Hills. It seems to me an argument might be made for an even greater degree of opportunism.

Separation of art and politics? Indeed. I personally could care less as to the political or ethical beliefs and actions of Wagner, Strauss, or Schoenberg. Carl Orff was the biggest jerk of all of them, yet my opinion of him only takes his music into consideration. Hell, I have read that Chopin and others were for more blatantly antisemitic than even Wagner... who really can only be faulted for using antisemitism as a means of attacking those who he saw as a roadblocks to his own nascent career: Mendelssohn, Meyerbeer and Hanslick primarily... and stupidly putting these ideas in writing. In his real life, Wagner had Jewish supporters, conductors, friends, and lovers. The interpretation of his music as suggestive of German militarism is only a fanciful interpretation made after the fact. One might just as fairly suggest that Tolstoy and Mussorgsky convey elements of Stalinism.

Seems like there's an agenda of sorts there. Elevating one guy and putting another in the toilet. Quite tasteless, imo. But anyway.

But your comments concerning your lack of respect for Strauss and suggesting that he was an opportunist who placed his personal concerns above any ethical concerns... there was no "agenda" there?

The point is that once you get into bed with monsters, you end up either becoming a monster, or being eaten by them. It's like big time crooks always start off as small time crooks. As kids, stealing lollies from the local shop, then by the time they're 20, stealing cars, then when they're older robbing banks or doing other big time stuff.

So that pretty much assumes that the whole of Western culture... all the painters, sculptors, composers, poets, etc... were "monsters" for they were nearly always employed by power-brokers (bankers, military leaders, aristocrats, clergymen and Popes, etc...) who were far from being ethical individuals. Michelagelo and Raphael worked for Pope Julius... the "Warrior Pope". How many artists and composers and writers were supported by the Medici, the Orsisi, the Barberini, the Borgias, etc... How many were under the command of Louis XIV or Cardinal Richelieu? What of Shostakovitch and Prokofiev who were supported by the Soviet State under Stalin? How many artists of any genre who rose to a level of fame and recognition can claim to have done so without the support of a single individual whose hands are in some way "dirty" if not "bloodied"? If I were to let such concerns color... and dictate what artists and artworks I might enjoy, I suspect that my choices would be highly limited.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^ THIS book I found on googlebooks, published in 1992, there are is a discussion of various views on R. Strauss' activities during the Nazi regime.

The view that he was an opportunist has been shared by some scholars and historians since that time. But it is a controversial issue. Strauss was not a Nazi of course, but he wasn't exactly supportive of composers who Goebbels condemned like Hindemith and Schoenberg either. Some commentators say he didn't really care much for things going on outside of his family, career and his villa in Garmsich. When he was a figurehead of the German Musician's Union, that organisation (basically run by the Nazis, Strauss was just a symbol the Nazis used to kind of legitimise it), Jewish musical life in Germany was totally dismantled. It appears there are mixed views about what he thought of this, in any case, he was just a tool for the Nazis. Some say he shouldn't allowed himself to be used as a tool, others say he was virtually forced to do it.

I am not attacking you or Strauss, stlukes, just aiming to kind of set the record straight.

Let's get rid of this emotive stuff and false dichotomies, assumptions, etc.

From page 98 of the above book, extracts are on googlebooks, various sides of the debate are covered. If I had quoted just one I would be misrepresenting the whole issue. Basically, it's complex and controversial, as many of these things can be.

But I know here a guy in his seventies, who's quite into the things you like, R. Strauss and Wagner. But he doesn't mince words when describing them as men. About Strauss, he's more harsh than I am. He says Strauss was amoral. Same with von Karajan. He says Furtwangler was probably one of a few German musicians who stayed at home through Nazi rule and came out on the other side with a good deal of his reputation intact. I won't comment on that either, the film directed by Istvan Szabo called _Taking Sides _was about this, I saw it, and it's another can of worms.

I would repeat that K.A. Hartmann was definitely someone who owns my respect as a man, as does Kodaly. & it's got nothing to do with their ideology. The former was a Communist, the latter was a CAtholic. But both of them acted in a way we can all look up to, without reservations. That's all I'm saying, it's a simple point, it doesn't mean that R. Strauss has to be compared to them, it just means that what he did (or didn't do) was not the only way to deal with the difficult situation musicians where faced with in those toughest of times.

& incidentally, I enjoy all of their musics to varying degrees, knowing the history is another thing, but if I want to talk about it, I do it with some level of balance, not too much invective or hyperbole...


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Just chiming my 2 cents in. No, it does not bother me - if Hitler himself had composed beautiful music, I would listen to it. But I know other people to whom this kind of thing is a big deal. I can sort of understand it, but when people take it so far as to be wary of all the great achievements of German culture (or any other culture that has produced great things as well as committed atrocities), then I think it's just ignorance and stupidity.


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## Eviticus (Dec 8, 2011)

The only question worth answering here is: Did any composer write music that _was_ actually anti-sematic, racist, homophobic or prejudice against minority groups? If the answer is yes, then i can understand people hating it but if the answer is no, then any other associations are meaningless.

We should love and appreciate music for it's sound, it's structure or it's original programme. Everything else is irrelevant (including who wrote it or who else likes it or used it). I feel many posters here (although they won't admit it) like piece more just because it was wrote by a particular composer when really it should be the opposite way round; you should like a composer more because he/she wrote a particular piece. The music or the art should speak for itself.

For example: I don't know much about art but if i came across a painting of a beautiful landscape i liked and discovered it was by Hitler, would it change the fact i liked the painting? No. The man's ideologies are separate. I like what i like. _ (Fortunately, Hitler never drew anything to my taste)_


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sid James said:


> ^^What the Nazis did with music, what music they promoted and which they banned, comes across as arbitrary to me, a good part of it at least. There was not much logic to it at all.
> 
> Eg. the Strauss waltz dynasty were of Jewish ancestry, coming from Hungary, but their music was not banned. Mendelssohn's music on the other hand was banned, his monument in Liepzig destroyed by the Nazis. Where is the consistency in this?
> 
> & neither Mendelssohn or the Strauss family composers practiced Judaism. A big fault in the Nazi's distorted ideology was that Judaism was a race, not a religion. That is clearly wrong, at least when talking of the Jews in the diaspora who had been living for generations outside of what we now call Israel. These people mixed with the peoples of the countries they moved to. I see Judaism more of a religion or cultural group, not necessarily an ethnic group. Depends what one means by Jewish, and for the Nazis it meant one thing, it was an ethnic group or "race."


Sid,both Strauss 1 and Strauss 11 were born in the Vienna area Maybe you're thinking of the Austro-Hungarian Empire which it was part of. Also I'm not sure re;what you say there regarding race vs. culture, maybe one of the Jewish members would put this straight?


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

Eviticus said:


> We should love and appreciate music for it's sound, it's structure or it's original programme. Everything else is irrelevant (including who wrote it or who else likes it or used it). I feel many posters here (although they won't admit it) like piece more just because it was wrote by a particular composer when really it should be the opposite way round; you should like a composer more because he/she wrote a particular piece. The music or the art should speak for itself.


Are you saying you aren't influenced by what what other people think about a particular piece of music, and that the only thing that matters to you is what it sounds like?


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## Eviticus (Dec 8, 2011)

Very Senior Member said:


> Are you saying you aren't influenced by what what other people think about a particular piece of music, and that the only thing that matters to you is what it sounds like?


Exactly right. If i know someone that has a similar taste or has prevously led me to a piece they like - sure i check it out. But i never like or dislike a piece based on what someone else thinks. Only an idiot would do that.


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

Eviticus said:


> Exactly right. If i know someone that has a similar taste or has prevously led me to a piece they like - sure i check it out. But i never like or dislike a piece based on what someone else thinks. Only an idiot would do that.


If that is true then I admire your self-confidence in your own ability to distinguish between good and bad music, and all shades in between. More generally I would have thought that many newcomers to classical music don't feel quite so confident as you, and generally value the opinions of the more experienced members in helping them to seek the better quality music. I would have thought that this kind of consideration must lie behind the enthusiasm so prevalent on this Board for constructing lists of recommended music.


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## misterjones (Oct 9, 2007)

Xaltotun said:


> . . . if Hitler himself had composed beautiful music, I would listen to it . . .


To each his own, but I'm not sure I could go that far. I'm a bit more forgiving for the political/social views of composers and other artists (like Wagner) who lived in quite a different time and place than we do now. Since I don't know the culture in which they were raised, it's hard for me to judge the excusability of their possibly naive (or even societally enforced) views. The 20th Century is chock full of stories of racist individuals who changed their views as they matured, and Wagner might have different views were he alive today.

My view on modern composers, musicians, etc. is that they should keep their political and social opinions to themselves. They should at least realize their worth lies in their art, and their art does not entitle their possibly naive (or even societally enforced*) views to any more weight than those of the guy (or gal) in the street.

_____________
* After all, Hollywood is a society of sorts, as well.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Very Senior Member said:


> If that is true then I admire your self-confidence in your own ability to distinguish between good and bad music, and all shades in between. More generally I would have thought that many newcomers to classical music don't feel quite so confident as you, and generally value the opinions of the more experienced members in helping them to seek the better quality music. I would have thought that this kind of consideration must lie behind the enthusiasm so prevalent on this Board for constructing lists of recommended music.


 An annoying prevalence isn't it , did you ask your mates to recomend girl friends that you might like? Have you noted some of the bizarre pices of advice on these threads ? It's an adventure ,go out and feel about ,for the music that is not the girlfriends. If not Eviticus will show you where to go I'm sure.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Very Senior Member said:


> If that is true then I admire your self-confidence in your own ability to distinguish between good and bad music, and all shades in between. More generally I would have thought that many newcomers to classical music don't feel quite so confident as you, and generally value the opinions of the more experienced members in helping them to seek the better quality music. I would have thought that this kind of consideration must lie behind the enthusiasm so prevalent on this Board for constructing lists of recommended music.


Yeah, that list constructing thing could be misleading; I don't what they are for either, but I was pretty sure that 'the opinions of more experienced members' have no cachet. The greenhorns know what they like better than I do.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

moody said:


> Sid,both Strauss 1 and Strauss 11 were born in the Vienna area Maybe you're thinking of the Austro-Hungarian Empire which it was part of. Also I'm not sure re;what you say there regarding race vs. culture, maybe one of the Jewish members would put this straight?


Well I remember an anecdote I read about a professor of music from Vienna who was at a function during the era of Nazi rule there. The waltz music of the Strausses was playing at the function. He said to one of the Nazi big wigs there that he thought it was strange how the Nazis banned Mendelssohn's music and yet allowed the STrauss family's to be played. The Nazi official told him basically that despite the contradiction, the Nazi government was in charge, they made the rules. I think he said that they were re-writing history, incl. the history of music, and that the professor could take it or leave it.

The whole thing was riddled with contraditions. I have an old recording, transferred to cd. During the occupation of France, some types of jazz was banned by the Nazis, but not others (the degenerate art thing, eg. black man's corrupting music, that kind of rubbish). But one of the jazz groups on THIS disc of recordings from that time I have, they play a piece called _Agatha Rhythm_. It's the same as_ I Got Rhythm_ by Gershwin, which of course was banned both as jazz, probably also to do with Gershwin being an American - the enemy of the Nazis - and of Jewish heritage to boot. But this record was still published at that time as far as I know. All they had to do was change the name of the song, maybe fudge the name of the composer a bit, and all was fine and dandy.

So there you go. History could be rewritten, facts manipulated. All that stuff that dictatorships are built on. Strauss waltzes in Vienna and some types of jazz were okay in Paris because it was practical for the Nazis to have these remain in place. Despite it not matching their ideology, can you imagine Vienna without waltzes, or Paris without jazz? (esp. the former, but also the latter, the French have always loved their jazz - even Debussy wrote a ragtime or two in his sets of piano preludes). The Nazis couldn't swim against the tide too much. Carrot and stick.

As for whether Judaism or Jewishness is a religion, ethnic group or "race," or cultural group, that's a complex issue, but the scholarship today is that with the diaspora and all the mixing of those of Jewish heritage (hate to use the word "blood") with those of the countries where they settled, aslo the fact that Israel is one of the most multicultural countries in the world, well these things support the view that the Jews are more a cultural/religious rather than an ethnic group today...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Couchie said:


> The difference between Wagner and other composers who were almost certainly anti-Semitic (looking at you Bach, Chopin, Liszt, Mussorgsky, Schubert, Schumann) is that Wagner was a much more prominent public figure and a profuse writer, and as such we know a great deal more about Wagner than any of them. In addition to his many books and essays (and reading these you get the impression that Wagner was the type of man to write down whatever was on his mind without thinking it through), we have hundreds of Wagner's private letters he never expected to see the light of day, and years worth of Cosima's diary entries detailing private exchanges between her and Wagner (and from which we can say without misogyny that Cosima was the greater anti-semite) ...


I think that in addition to those things (his diaries, Cosima's own racism, etc.), it's also that Wagner's descendants where on very friendly terms with Hitler and the Nazis. Also that Wagner spent like many years, maybe 5-10 years, writing and publishing these anti-semitic tracts, while he was holed up in Switzerland. He wasted his time, which could have been spent on doing better things, on this political rubbish. Another thing is that other composers of 19th century may well have had racist views, but as far as I know their relatives did not get involved in extreme right wing politics (eg. Nazism) when it came up in the 20th century.

Apart from the subjective elements of Wagner's music, the old "it reminds me of invading Poland" cliche.

The book I posted in an earlier post, about R. Strauss, said that not ony his and Wagner's music, but also that of Carl Orff, were banned in Israel after the war. I knew that Wagner was banned there, but not the other two. Showing that these memories were very fresh for many people then. Now, as the saying goes, time heals all wounds. The bans on these guy's music has long been lifted in Israel, for decades, Barenboim himself campaigned for that to happen with Wagner...


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## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

I may be in the minority but I'll listen to a good tune and don't care where it came from especially if the writer is dead.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Sid James said:


> I think that in addition to those things (his diaries, Cosima's own racism, etc.), it's also that Wagner's descendants where on very friendly terms with Hitler and the Nazis. Also that Wagner spent like many years, maybe 5-10 years, writing and publishing these anti-semitic tracts, while he was holed up in Switzerland. He wasted his time, which could have been spent on doing better things, on this political rubbish. Another thing is that other composers of 19th century may well have had racist views, but as far as I know their relatives did not get involved in extreme right wing politics (eg. Nazism) when it came up in the 20th century.


No big disagreement here, in my opinion Wagner's writings are glib, frustrating to read, and pointless. I'll only put up with such pretentiousness if it's accompanied with a 100 piece orchestra.



Sid James said:


> Apart from the subjective elements of Wagner's music, the old "it reminds me of invading Poland" cliche.


Sure, Ride of the Valkyries makes good "invasion" music as was popularized in Apocalypse Now. But Parsifal, Tristan und Isolde, Die Meistersinger? This quip just seems to indicate a lack of familiarity with Wagner's music.



Sid James said:


> The book I posted in an earlier post, about R. Strauss, said that not ony his and Wagner's music, but also that of Carl Orff, were banned in Israel after the war. I knew that Wagner was banned there, but not the other two. Showing that these memories were very fresh for many people then. Now, as the saying goes, time heals all wounds. The bans on these guy's music has long been lifted in Israel, for decades, Barenboim himself campaigned for that to happen with Wagner...


Wagner's music is still not frequently performed in Israel. Katharina Wagner attempted a Bayreuth-Israel "reconciliation" trip in 2010 but cancelled it because of the outrage.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I think that in addition to those things (his diaries, Cosima's own racism, etc.), it's also that Wagner's descendants where on very friendly terms with Hitler and the Nazis. Also that Wagner spent like many years, maybe 5-10 years, writing and publishing these anti-semitic tracts, while he was holed up in Switzerland. He wasted his time, which could have been spent on doing better things, on this political rubbish. Another thing is that other composers of 19th century may well have had racist views, but as far as I know their relatives did not get involved in extreme right wing politics (eg. Nazism) when it came up in the 20th century.
> 
> Apart from the subjective elements of Wagner's music, the old "it reminds me of invading Poland" cliche.
> 
> The book I posted in an earlier post, about R. Strauss, said that not ony his and Wagner's music, but also that of Carl Orff, were banned in Israel after the war. I knew that Wagner was banned there, but not the other two. Showing that these memories were very fresh for many people then. Now, as the saying goes, time heals all wounds. The bans on these guy's music has long been lifted in Israel, for decades, Barenboim himself campaigned for that to happen with Wagner...


I think that Orff's music should be banned everywhere!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

moody said:


> I think that Orff's music should be banned everywhere!


Well then, at least you'd maybe acknowledge his work in setting up a system to teach children music (which happened post-1945)? Mr. Orff did do something other than _Carmina Burana _ (which I don't mind, but only very rarely, and be careful if you go to a live performance, all that percussion is like full-on, deafening!)...


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Well then, at least you'd maybe acknowledge his work in setting up a system to teach children music (which happened post-1945)? Mr. Orff did do something other than _Carmina Burana _ (which I don't mind, but only very rarely, and be careful if you go to a live performance, all that percussion is like full-on, deafening!)...


I was only joking guv!


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## matsoljare (Jul 28, 2008)

I find it surprising that it is never mentioned that Bruckner was Hitler's favorite composer....


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

matsoljare said:


> I find it surprising that it is never mentioned that Bruckner was Hitler's favorite composer....


He had many favourite composers from the past. I'm not sure if Bruckner was his absolute favourite, but he was certainly up there. I saw a photo of Hitler laying a wreath at a bust of Bruckner, a monument to him. I don't think it did Bruckner's reputation any good after 1945. It is well known that when Hitler committed suicide, German radio played the slow movement of Bruckner's Sym.#7, which Bruckner wrote with Wagner's death in mind. Yet another way the Nazis manipulated music and used it to their own ends, as they did any history they could get their hands on and distort.

BTW, Hitler's favourite living composers were Sibelius and Lehar...


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

> In his real life, Wagner had Jewish supporters, conductors, friends, and lovers.


Not that I give a damn about a dead composer's worldview... but honestly now, using this as evidence of Wagner being "not that racist" is like saying a man can't be sexist because he has a girlfriend.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

matsoljare said:


> I find it surprising that it is never mentioned that Bruckner was Hitler's favorite composer....


That explains a lot!


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## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

It certainly does.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Guys, who cares? 

People read Sartre's works where he actively ADVOCATES communism. Sartre also supported Stalin, who was worse than Hitler in numerous ways. His plays are taught in high school, he is still a beloved figure in France. 

Hitchens worshipped Trotsky all of his life, yet we had an outpouring of grief for him on this very forum.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

This topic is kind of a dead horse. No offense, but I've been bored by discussions of Wagner's racial views ever since I started going to this site in Septermber of 2009.


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