# 'The (ideological) fence'



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Reflecting on what's been going on here lately, I thought I'd post the lyrics of one of my favourite songs of recent years. It's not classical strictly speaking, but this Australian musician's style is a blend of many things, not only rock but also classical, jazz, hip hop, you name it, and he is also a comedian and can be quite political.

It's Tim Minchin, and below is his song commenting on all the ideological fences we build. It can be politics (left vs. right) or music (the wigs vs. anything younger than the wigs). Don't take the words too literally, a lot of it is tongue in cheek, reflecting Aussie 'larrakin' humour.

But I've put this on 'classical music discussion' area of the forum to limit it to discussion of ideological fences to do with music or the arts. I want to keep politics as separate as possible if its possible. Maybe think of this as a veiled comment on what goes on when people don't agree with or respect eachother's views (eg. mudslinging).

Ok here are the lyrics, from this website:
http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/t/tim_minchin/the_fence.html

There was a clip on youtube of this song, and other songs on Minchin's album he did in the UK (with the Heritage Orchestra of Manchester) but he took them down, probably due to copyright issues. So only the lyrics will have to do (below in italics).

*'The Fence' by Tim Minchin*

_Somewhere in your wardrobe, I'd be willing to bet
There's a t-shirt probably bearing the silhouette of Che Guevara

He was revolutionary, yeah, he wore a cool hat
But behind the design I think you might find it's not quite as simple as that

Che was a bit of a homophobe, Che was a bit of a homophobe, apparently
Che was a bit of a homophobe, Che was a bit of a homophobe

[Chorus]
This is my song in defence of the fence
A little sing along, a anthem to ambivalence
The more you know, the harder you will find it
To make up your mind, it, doesn't really matter if you find
You can't see which grass is greener
Chances are it's neither, and either way it's easier
To see the difference, when you're sitting on the fence

Somewhere in your house, I'd be willing to bet
There's a picture of that grinning hippy from Tibet - the Dalai Llama

He's a lovely, funny fella, he gives soundbites galore
But let's not forget that back in Tibet, those funky monks used to dick the poor, yeah

And the Buddhist line about future lives is the perfect way to stop the powerless rising up
And he tells the poor they will live again, but he's rich now so it's easy for him to say

[Chrous]
I'm taking the stand in defence of the fence
I got a little band playing anthems to ambivalence
We divide the world into terrorists and heroes
Into normal folk and weirdos
Into good people and pedos
Into things that give you cancer and the things that cure cancer
And the things that don't cause cancer, but there's a chance they will cause cancer in the future
We divide the world to stop us feeling frightened
Into wrong and into right and
Into black and into white and
Into real men and fairies
Into status quo and scary
Yeah we want the world binary, binary
But it's not that simple.

And your dog has a bigger carbon footprint than a four wheel drive
Yea your dog has a bigger carbon footprint than a four wheel drive
And your dog has a bigger carbon footprint than a four wheel drive
And so does your baby, maybe you oughta trade HIM in for a Prius

ROCK!

[Chorus]
I'm taking the stand in defence of the fence
I got a little band playing tributes to ambivalence
We divide the world into liberals and gun-freaks
Into atheists and fundies
Into tee-tot'lers and junkies
Into chemical and natural
Into fictional and factual
Into science and supernatural
But it's actually naturally not that white and black

You'll be
Dividing us into terrorists and heroes
Into normal folk and weirdos
Into good people and pedos
Into things that give you cancer and the things that cure cancer
And things that don't cause cancer, but there's a chance they will cause cancer in the future
We divide the world to stop us feeling frightened
Into wrong and into right and
Into black and into white and
Into real men and fairies
Into parrots and canaries
Yeah we want the world binary, binary - 01 001 000!

The more you know, the harder you will find it
To make up your mind, it doesn't really matter if you find
You can't see which grass is greener
Chances are it's neither, and either way it's easier
To see the difference when you're sitting on the fence
Cause it's not that simple... Maybe..._


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere 
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; 
The best lack all conviction, while the worst 
Are full of passionate intensity.
-- W.B. Yeats

We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over. -- Aneurin Bevan


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^I'd prefer if you just say what you think, not quote others, but I'll respond to what I got out of those quotes.

The point for me is not to have any fence, but not to have a rigid/immovable one. Eg. look at the Brahms vs. Wagner thing (late 19th century in Vienna) or any ideology that kind of proved more harmful than good to music in the long run. I mean I've ranted against a number of these for ages here. I'm against any extreme ideology basically, which is what I see confusing the actual thing at hand (eg. music) with ideology or dogma.

So I'm questioning that here. Eg. Messiaen, Xenakis, CArter undoubtedly had their own ideologies or world views as composers and artists. But they largely stood aloof from the various 'turf wars' that where going on post-1945, which they did not care for. Basically it was more doing and less talking.

But the thing is, of course I as a proud 'fence sitter' have a world view, but its maybe not something I can put down on paper easily. & its not 'one size fits all' kind of approach. That's what I'm arguing against, inflexibility. & that's what I get from the song I quoted in my opening post. I hope it stimulates people to think beyond the usual 'us versus them' kind of attitudes which I think are no good.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Sid James said:


> your dog has a bigger carbon footprint than a four wheel drive


Wow I didn't know that

I like fences. They keep the chickens in and the foxes out. Sometimes.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Ramako said:


> Wow I didn't know that...


Yeah well Tim Minchin's songs are quite informative (and funny!). The dog's carbon footprint thing is actually true. It was beat up in the media here recently. A politician from the Greens party did a rant against dogs and dog owners, something like that. But I think some people here are having pets instead of kids, so if dogs have less of a carbon footprint than a kid, well its not so bad after all, maybe.



> ...
> I like fences. They keep the chickens in and the foxes out. Sometimes.


Seriously there are fences with uses. Like that sort of 'farm' thing. But not things like the old Iron Curtain. If its like that its preventing freedom, which I think is the worse thing.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

I don't think there is such a thing as a good ideological fence. It reeks of prejudice and censorship.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Interesting lyrics (but the song itself was terrible).


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Fences protect systems both good and bad; politically, ideologically, religiously and of course agriculturally. There are some people who like to put up fences as a hobby, but they tend to end up sitting alone in a small piece of land with too little grass: sometimes I believe it is necessary. However, putting up a fence against all fence-makers does have a certain irony in it, although I won't flog a dead horse (to use the expression; IMO it is alive).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Interesting lyrics (but the song itself was terrible).


Minchin is deliberately rough and in your face. But he trained in music (piano) as well as performance at W.A. school of performing arts (WAPA). He's a Western Australian but now I think spends most of his time in the UK where his concerts have been selling out. A recent one in Royal Albert Hall, London sold out long before the concert date, not the usual thing for this 'fusion' type genre. An amazing musician, imo, some have called him genius but I'll settle at saying he's brilliant.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

BurningDesire said:


> I don't think there is such a thing as a good ideological fence. It reeks of prejudice and censorship.


Yeah well maybe I should not call myself a fence sitter. If I sat on the Iron Curtain I would cut my backside on barbed wire. Well its no more of course, its history. Then there's the Great Wall of China (was it a 'fence' to keep the Mongols out or the Chinese in?) which at least has bought cash into China as a tourist destination (and one of the great wonders of the world or whatever...but who cares, just give us your visa card...we're a worker's state but we want your money, particularly American dollars...another fictional/ideological fence there?)...


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

The dog thing is really interesting, thanks.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Stiles can be difficult to climb, they always feel so fragile. Less fences means less stiles. On the other hand, you could get run over by a horse.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Crudblud said:


> Stiles can be difficult to climb, they always feel so fragile. Less fences means less stiles. On the other hand, you could get run over by a horse.


Mostly, a horse without a rider won't run you only if it can avoid it. So the onus... .


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

brianwalker said:


> The dog thing is really interesting, thanks.


Well I first heard it in that song of his, and then about 6 months later it hit the news here. Minchin has his hand on the pulse of current events thats for sure. But with dogs, an undercurrent of what he's saying there is that people treat them like commodities, not like living things you need to care for (eg. a responsibility). There's heaps of abandoned dogs (and cats) here, the pounds are overflowing, and many thousands of these animals have to be euthanised every year. People just take their unwanted dogs for a ride - maybe in a 4WD? - out to the outskirts of our cities and dump them right there. So the values of society have gone down the toilet.

A cute puppy quickly becomes a burden. Not like a throwaway consumer item.

...but let's keep building these ideological fences, they'll 'fix' everything...*being sarcastic*...


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Mostly, a horse without a rider won't run you only if it can avoid it. So the onus... .


I was harassed by a rogue horse once. I take no chances.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

Here's another song that I find very apt to describe my view about "what's been going on here lately".

It's a song by "Rambling Syd Rumpo" (by the incomparable Kenneth Williams).

"The Outlaw Song"

I find the lyrics very profound. Try to listen carefully. I think they are more profound than anything I've ever discovered in the many belly-aching rants I've ever come across by someone whose name I dare not mention.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

.............................


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

I actually can't take seriously the mindless liberal persons who want to generalize everything and if you explain a historical/social counter-example by using logic of another school of philosophy, they label you 'ignorant', 'evil' or 'conservative' ... 

The amount of relativism, skepticism and anti-rationalism in this lyric makes it an awful mixture. (rational statement)

And homos are my least favorite persons that I only tolerate the respectable composer kind of them like Tchaikovsky. (emotional statement)


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