# Does architecture influence our minds?



## Sven Bjorg (Sep 29, 2014)

What I say shouldn't be accepted as true, as it is only a recent observation I made today. Europe has many different types of architecture. Some of which are idiomatic to specific countries like the Georgian style is to England. This style seems very irreducible in its design. Houses built in this style are highly symmetrical and mathematically proportionate and they look like manifestations of an irreducible mathematical formula, or an incredibly concise sentence. I wonder if the appearance of this architecture indirectly inspired Handel to think in such irreducible terms when he composed his music.

Bach was exposed to Medieval/Baroque architecture, which was the opposite to what Handel saw, as buildings were ornate and intricately complex. In fact, German buildings look very 'busy', which might have inspired him to compose such intricate music. 

Bach and Handel were exposed to these two juxtaposing architecture styles throughout their lives, so I think that it heavily influenced their composing.

What do you think?


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I've opened a thread about parallels between music and architecture:
http://www.talkclassical.com/30000-music-architecture.html

Anyway I think that sometimes it's possible a direct influence but most of the time I guess that the reason for those similarities is that music and architecture (like literature or any other art) are products of a certain culture so it's possible to see the effect of the same ideas in many different fields.


----------



## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Why not? What matters is that it's a beautiful thought. Everything around us affects our thinking, after all. And architecture and music share the fact that they are the most abstract of all art forms, and moreover, they are art forms that depend heavily upon structure, motifs and repetition.

When I hear music, I often find myself thinking about architecture. Vast spaces, pillars, ascending forms that take a moment to rest in a corbel or what have you, and then continue to the vault and towards the penultimate spire. Perfect proportions of width to length to depth, abstract pleasure. I sometimes spend time thinking about the similarities of these two art forms, and have come up with a couple of thoughts. One thing is that these art forms can induce a strange pleasure that I call... "the pleasure of witnessing the tyranny of reason".


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Before considering the influence of architecture in accounting for stylistic differences between two composers like Handel and Bach, I believe one should first fully take into account more obvious influences like national musical styles. For example, Handel composed a lot of Italian opera, Bach did not. Bach composed an enormous amount of chorale based music, Handel did not. If there are stylistic differences that aren't accounted for by considering the influence of national and other musical styles, then it might well be appropriate to look at other possible influences, such as architecture. But any reasonable argument for a thesis of architectural influence must first, I believe, begin by eliminating the obvious.


----------



## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Xaltotun said:


> Why not? What matters is that it's a beautiful thought. Everything around us affects our thinking, after all. And *architecture* and music share the fact that they are *the most abstract of all art forms*, and moreover, they are art forms that depend heavily upon structure, motifs and repetition.


I think of architecture as one of the _least_ abstract art forms - in fact, it's sometimes (literally) concrete!


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I think of architecture as one of the _least_ abstract art forms - in fact, it's sometimes (literally) concrete!


I don't know if you're joking and I don't get it, but from an aesthetic point of view architecture is very abstract. I've always thought that a good argument for those who are suspicious about abstract paintings is that they can say if a house or another building is beautiful or not for their tastes. And that is abstract art too, because after all a house is made of volumes like cubes that usually don't represent anything.


----------



## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

norman bates said:


> I don't know if you're joking and I don't get it, but from an aesthetic point of view architecture is very abstract. I've always thought that a good argument for those who are suspicious about abstract paintings is that they can say if a house or another building is beautiful or not for their tastes. And that is abstract art too, because after all a house is made of volumes like cubes that usually don't represent anything.


No, I'm not (only) joking. Buildings generally have functions, and the form is often dictated by, amongst other things, the function (also budgets, prevailing architectural fashions and construction techniques, to be sure). I see where you're coming from, though, in arguing that they can be seen as abstract from an aesthetic point of view.


----------



## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

I think you'll find the arts, sciences, culture, and philosophy are interrelated in many remarkable ways, and to try to determine which influenced what is very much a chicken/egg proposition. Call it the Zeitgeist effect and think about it until your head hurts. then move on and have a beer.


----------



## Guest (Sep 29, 2014)

Did Xenakis inspire himself or did Xenakis inspire himself?


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Baroque architecture was splendid. It reflected their artistic values and that was also evident in their ordely music. bach, Vivaldi, Handel, Telemann, Corelli, The French Baroque - all inspired each other. Such were the real values of the past, which made their architect and music beautiful *even today*, that's why it is so well loved by many, for all years to come yet. Pure and simple.


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

A few cases of music with a relatively direct inspiration from architecture are:

- Villa-Lobos: New York Skyline 



 The melodic lines are influenced by a photograph of the silhouette of the skyline http://imslp.org/wiki/New_York_Skyline_Melody,_W407,_408_(Villa-Lobos,_Heitor)
- Satie: Ogives (= Gothic arch forms, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogives)

Some examples of a less important inspiration, more associated with a mood, a poem or a myth related to buildings, are:
- Debussy: La Cathedrale Engloutie
- Mussorgsky, Pictures at an Exhibition: The Great Gate in Kiev
- Ludolf Nielsen: The Tower of Babel, Oratorio
- Poulenc etc. (collective composition): Les Mariees de la Tour Eiffel


----------



## Guest (Sep 29, 2014)

Art, So you're saying that a lack of coherent melody and unremitting dissonance and constantly changing key and meter and throwing every kind of thing you can imagine (well, aside I suppose from the kitchen sink) into your piece are all good things, eh?

I'm inclined to agree....





(I hate joining in the rush to ignore my sweet Xenakis joke, but when you've got a barrel full of fish, and a gun, well, sometimes the temptation is just too great.)


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I've never associated music with architecture and I'm not about to start now.

Someone listed some program music indirectly associated with "architecture".

Fine. Take 1000 musical illiterates brought up on the usual pop music, oblivious to anything classical.

Play Debussy's Sunken Cathedral. Ask what the music depicts. You think ANYBODY in 1000 will say "Oh yeah!! That's a sunken cathedral, right?"

Puleeze!!!


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I think of architecture as one of the least abstract art forms - in fact, it's sometimes (literally) concrete!

I don't know if you're joking and I don't get it, but from an aesthetic point of view architecture is very abstract. I've always thought that a good argument for those who are suspicious about abstract paintings... 

No, I'm not (only) joking. Buildings generally have functions, and the form is often dictated by, amongst other things, the function (also budgets, prevailing architectural fashions and construction techniques, to be sure). I see where you're coming from, though, in arguing that they can be seen as abstract from an aesthetic point of view.

We need to clarify the terminology. The term "Abstraction", when applied to painting, is generally employed to denote those works which are non-objective or non-representational. All art is abstract when considering these elements of the definition of "Abstraction":

*The act of drawing from or taking away from
*The act of focusing upon general aspects or characteristic
*An abridgement
*Considered apart from concrete existence
*A description of a concept that leaves out some information or details in order to simplify it in some useful way.

When someone states that they dislike "Abstract" painting, what they generally mean is that they dislike non-representational...



... or even Expressionist painting:



Architecture is as non-representational or non-objective as the DeKooning above... or as Persian carpets or Native American quilts. I agree that one can use architecture and other non-representational art forms as a means of challenging the notion that painting must be representational.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Returning to the OP: Certainly our environments influence us and the environments in which artists live and work influence them. My art school provided students with some of the largest studio spaces of any undergraduate program with an immense ceiling of glass. It was an old automobile factory. The scale was such that it was not surprising that a majority of the students frequently worked on 6 or 8 or 10-foot canvases. Moving to New York was a culture shock. In spite of the size of the city and the history of huge paintings by the Abstract Expressionists, Color Field Painters, and Pop Artists, we were confronted by the reality of tiny work spaces which had a clear impact upon the work.

If we look at history we find that art was always impacted by the environment in which the artist lived and for which the work was destined. The paintings of the Baroque artists employed in Catholic nations (Rubens, Caravaggio, Velazquez, Marc-Antoine Charpentier, etc...) tended to be grandiose in scale and usually brilliant in color. These paintings were intended for the palatial estates of dukes, kings, grandees, earls, or the church. The paintings of the Dutch Baroque (Rembrandt, Vermeer, etc...), in contrast, were humble in scale, intended as they were for private homes of the middle class. 

It would seem obvious that music is no less influenced by the environment... especially the environment for which it is intended to be performed. A grand opera or a great Requiem mass are intended for a vastly different environment than a small chamber work or lieder. 

Beyond this, I'm not certain you can draw a direct connection between works of architecture (or other artistic forms) and music. Within the realm of the visual arts (painting) I know artists who have drawn inspiration from narrative literature, poetry, dance, music, architecture, and any number of other artistic sources. I suspect the same is true of music. There are likely musicians who were inspired by a favorite book or poem, a work of architecture, dance, a painting, etc... I would, however, avoid any broad assertion as to the impact of one art form upon another. Artists are individuals.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Does architecture influence our minds?

I suspect that if one lives in a castle on a hill he will have a different perspective than he who resides in a box under the river bridge. But then again, possibly not.


----------



## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

hpowders said:


> I've never associated music with architecture and I'm not about to start now.
> 
> Someone listed some program music indirectly associated with "architecture".
> 
> ...


But that's not how it goes and you know it. It goes the other way around with program music. You give people the program (maybe no more than the name of the piece), then play the music - otherwise it's meaningless. If the listener can then use his/her imagination and say "Hey - that might totally be a cathedral, yeah!", then it's successful. It's all about using the imagination, not making "accurate" musical depictions of non-musical things.


----------



## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I think of architecture as one of the _least_ abstract art forms - in fact, it's sometimes (literally) concrete!


Basically, what StLukes said. Architecture is certainly functional, but it's non-representational. The functional aspect makes it less abstract than abstract painting, though.


----------

