# Greatest of the greats?



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Which are the most Titanic of Titans? You may select up to five (5).


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Couchie said:


> Which are the most Titanic of Titans? You may select up to five (5).


Wait, you voted for _Le Nozzo di Figaro_ over _Der Ring des Nibelugen_? I'm losing faith in you as a true believer Couchie!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

BachIsBest said:


> Wait, you voted for _Le Nozzo di Figaro_ over _Der Ring des Nibelugen_? I'm losing faith in you as a true believer Couchie!


The first time I heard The Marriage of Figaro, I wept. Not because it was sad of course, but I had never experienced anything before that was quite that perfect. I felt unworthy to be in its presence. I believe Poe in the Poetic Principle says such experience of beauty cannot be experienced without sadness.

Der Ring has many fine qualities, but "perfect" is certainly not a label I would ascribe to it. Is a flawed masterpiece, the flaws do make it all the more intriguing, but on this rare occasion, I must set Wagner aside and give a nod to perfection.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Keeping in mind the impossibility of this assignment - partly because comparing vastly different things is like comparing bananas to kiwi fruit (aren't we tired of apples and oranges?) - it's just fun to pay tribute to art that leaves you incredulous that it was ever created at all. I might choose differently on a different day, but probably not entirely differently. I think Bach's _B-minor Mass_ and Wagner's _Parsifal_ will have to go with me to my grave.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Why is there no music before Bach and no music after Stravinsky? Who dareth to say that the honourable voters had such a restricted knowledge of greatness in music?


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

problematic selection as Messiah would probably be considered Handel’sgreatest work by many, as would Beethoven’s Missa Solemnis over the ninth and is not Falstaff superior to Otello? I think Mahlerians would have something to say about the omission of Mahler’s ninth!


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

I want to write in 
Beethoven SQ 13,14,15,16

Berg Violin concerto

Bartok concerto for orchestra

Bach Violin Partita no.2 in D minor (Chaconne)

Purcell Queen Mary funeral music


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Comparing works in classical music is similar to comparing men.

Would you compile a list of the 20 greatest (no to say best) men that ever lived? You wouldn't, would you? Making yourself judge on good and evil ...


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Philidor said:


> Why is there no music before Bach and no music after Stravinsky? Who dareth to say that the honourable voters had such a restricted knowledge of greatness in music?


Apparently solo piano music peaked with Bach as well. Where's Op. 111? smh


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Some of my all-time favorites aren't on here:
--Beethoven late quartets
--Beethoven Op 106, 109, 111
--The Art of Fugue
--The Musical Offering
--Schubert String Quartet 15
--Schubert String Quintet
--Messiah


But the Mass in B Minor, St. Matthew Passion, and Beethoven Ninth are on here, and I voted for them.

I also chose Parsifal and the WTC.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Philidor said:


> Why is there no music before Bach and no music after Stravinsky? Who dareth to say that the honourable voters had such a restricted knowledge of greatness in music?


Because the consensus among CM enthusiasts is that the greatest music is in the 1700-1950 time span. You get few contenders for all-time greats before* Bach and Handel's music, and few contenders after The Rite of Spring.

Indeed, if this was a poll for casual listeners, The Four Seasons, the Hallelujah Chorus (as a stand alone), and The Blue Danube would be contenders.

*The most obvious option before Bach and Handel would probably be Monteverdi's Vespers.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

ORigel said:


> Because the consensus among CM enthusiasts is that the greatest music is in the 1700-1950 time span.


Really? - What is an "CM enthusiast"?


ORigel said:


> You get few contenders for all-time greats before* Bach and Handel's music, and few contenders after The Rite of Spring.


Do you know "Viderunt omnes" by Perotin or "Gesang der Jünglinge" by Stockhausen or "Different Trains" by Steve Reich? Or just the latter's "Music for 18 Musicians"?


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## ClassicalMaestro (Dec 10, 2017)

Beethoven Symphony No. 9 but I also love No. 5 too.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Philidor said:


> Really? - What is an "CM enthusiast"?
> 
> Do you know "Viderunt omnes" by Perotin or "Gesang der Jünglinge" by Stockhausen or "Different Trains" by Steve Reich? Or just the latter's "Music for 18 Musicians"?


Someone who is more interested in CM than a casual CM listener. A list of casual CM faves would look like this list:








Top 200 Classical Music Pieces! - History Rundown


Top 200 Classical Music Pieces




www.historyrundown.com





I know "Vidurent Omnes" and it's nowhere near the level of the all-time greats. As for Reich, I tried Music for 18 Musicians a couple years ago and presumably went back to Haydn or Shostakovich after listening for a minute.

If Couchie were to include merely good to great pieces in the poll that MIGHT be selected by one or two people, there would be hundreds or even thousands of options in the poll. Better to keep to a short semi-consensus list, with a few of your favorites thrown in. The poll should have an "other" option, though.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

ORigel said:


> I know "Vidurent Omnes" and it's nowhere near the level of the all-time greats.


I see. It is difficult music, starting with its title.

However: If you were looking for the greatest theorems in mathematics, whom would you ask? Someone who is more interested in maths than a casual reader of popular books on maths? 


To my humble opinion, great (and greatest) music has been written in all centuries, and each generation produced its lighthouses towering above (almost) everything left and right from them. Should anyone not be able to recognize it, the reason for this is obviously not the music.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

You could ask dozens of questions in style of

"Why is Beethoven's 5th on the list but neither op. 111 nor op. 131?"
"Why is Mendelssohn's VC on the list but not the stroke of a genius 'Ouverture to A Midsommer nights dreame'?"
...
...

It's just looking like a chart list. Probably the newspapers with the largest circulations are the greatest and the restaurants with most turnover are the best ones, too.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I thought everyone knew the best Mendy work was the F minor quartet!


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

No, obviously his 2nd string quintet.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

I have never heard anything by Mendelssohn except his violin concerto and 4th symphony and so I feel perfectly qualified to say that his best work is his violin concerto


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Philidor said:


> I see. It is difficult music, starting with its title.
> 
> However: If you were looking for the greatest theorems in mathematics, whom would you ask? Someone who is more interested in maths than a casual reader of popular books on maths?
> 
> ...


Then make a poll with a lot of the great music. Starting with medieval works like Viderunt omnes, moving to Josqiun and Tallis. Early baroque works like Carissimi's Jephte. A lot of material by Bach, Handel, Teleman, etc. A few dozen Haydn symphonies, and several string quartet opuses.

Are polls still limited to 15 options here? Even if the potential options are unlimited, no one would want to trawl through the poll options to find the popular pieces.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Well I was boring and went for the 9th, the Brahms 4 and the Rite. As much as I wanted to pull a fun vote for the Fantastique, it's not even my favorite Berlioz work (that's Romeo et Juliette)


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

ORigel said:


> Then make a poll with a lot of the great music.


I don't feel being in position to compile a list of the greatest works ever written. Who am I to do such thing?

But I feel knowing enough to say that a list restricted to 1700-1950 is not such list.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Philidor said:


> I thought everyone knew the best Mendy work was the F minor quartet!


My favorite Mendelssohn work is Elijah. My favorite chamber work by him is currently* String Quintet no. 2. I cannot believe that quintet isn't famous.

*I haven't listened to all of Mendelssohn's chamber works. I know String Quartets 2, 4-6; both string quintets, Clarinet Sonata, Piano Trio no. 2, and the Octet. So my opinion may change when I listen to other works.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I picked:
Beethoven Symphony #9
Mendelssohn Violin Concerto
Dvorak Symphony #9
Mahler Symphony #2
Stravinsky Rite of Spring

I think I know why the Mendelssohn VC was chosen to be on the list. The list needed a violin concerto, and rather than choosing another piece by Beethoven, let's go with another excellent violin concerto. Though if I had made this list, I might have chosen the Sibelius Violin Concerto. I think my favorite piece by Mendelssohn might be the Octet.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Philidor said:


> I don't feel being in position to compile a list of the greatest works ever written. Who am I to do such thing?
> 
> But I feel knowing enough to say that a list restricted to 1700-1950 is not such list.


Most CM listeners don't care much for early music or later 20th century classical music, film scores excepted. Not enough to say that the greatest of the greats come from those eras, anyway. 

The poll is limited even in the Handel-Stravinsky timespan-- it doesn't include keyboard music other than WTC, or chamber music other than "Death and the Maiden." They deserve to be included as much as post Rite works or pre Giulio Cesare works. But polls have to have a managable number of options.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

My favorite of all time is the scherzo from Tchaikovsky's 4th. 

Of the poll selection I'd choose:
Mahler: Symphony no. 2
Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelugen
Dvorak: Symphony no. 9
Mozart: Requiem Mass


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I'm satisfied with how the voting is going. Berlioz isn't doing well, but that's to be expected; he's far from being a TC favorite composer.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Philidor said:


> Comparing works in classical music is similar to comparing men.
> 
> Would you compile a list of the 20 greatest (no to say best) men that ever lived? You wouldn't, would you? Making yourself judge on good and evil ...


Yes, why not?


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Bulldog said:


> I'm satisfied with how the voting is going. Berlioz isn't doing well, but that's to be expected; he's far from being a TC favorite composer.


If it was Romeo et Juliette I'd have voted for it three times...


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

ORigel said:


> I know "Vidurent Omnes" and it's nowhere near the level of the all-time greats. As for Reich, I tried Music for 18 Musicians a couple years ago and presumably went back to Haydn or Shostakovich after listening for a minute.


Not a good move. Reich's music has a cumulative impact that can't possibly be recognized with one minute of listening.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Bulldog said:


> Reich's music has a cumulative impact that can't possibly be recognized with one minute of listening.


I am not sure whether this thread's certainties should be disturbed by real experiences of skilled listeners. You might miss the target.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I voted for the 9th because it has four movements and they're all pretty good. That doesn't happen that often!

I mean, even the 7th has that goofy scherzo in it...


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

fbjim said:


> I voted for the 9th because it has four movements and they're all pretty good. That doesn't happen that often!


Afaik the quality of the 4th movement is disputed among connoisseurs ...


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

It's not Louie's fault that soloists can never get that bit at the end before the climax to sound good.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Beethoven 9
Don Giovanni
Der Ring des Nibelungen
Tristan und Isolde
Parsifal

Hm, all vocal. Interesting


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

fbjim said:


> It's not Louie's fault that soloists can never get that bit at the end before the climax to sound good.


For the discussion of the intrinsic qualities of the 4th movement of op. 125, I am only an onlooker. However, if I got it right, the quality is not discussed because of technical difficulties of a single section.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I think I probably listen to the Well-Tempered Clavier more than the rest of the compositions on this list combined, which I suppose counts as a personal touchstone for "greatest." 

Wonderful selection of works, in any case--and a reminder for me to dust off the Mussorgsky and give it a fresh listen; it's been too long.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Philidor said:


> For the discussion of the intrinsic qualities of the 4th movement of op. 125, I am only an onlooker. However, if I got it right, the quality is not discussed because of technical difficulties of a single section.


What I've frequently heard is criticism of the vocal writing generally, which includes it being excessively difficult to pull off, though that movement is very much a "warts and all" love for my tastes.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

fbjim said:


> What I've frequently heard is criticism of the vocal writing generally, which includes it being excessively difficult to pull off, though that movement is very much a "warts and all" love for my tastes.


The challenge of the work to perform must still create a sense of suspense for concert goers as opposed to home listeners to "reference" recordings; some greatness is most readily perceived in live performance, where there's an element of risk. I'll admit that the work I voted for, the WTC, is definitely a home-listening experience: the idea of going out to hear a complete recital of both books fills me with a kind of dread lol. (Though, as to that, I'd probably go if an intrepid pianist gave me the opportunity.)


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Blancrocher said:


> I think I probably listen to the Well-Tempered Clavier more than the rest of the compositions on this list combined, which I suppose counts as a personal touchstone for "greatest."
> 
> Wonderful selection of works, in any case--and a reminder for me to dust off the Mussorgsky and give it a fresh listen; it's been too long.


Yes, I also find the selection to be excellent. However, the main thing is that it's Couchie's list; anyone finding it deficient is free to start a thread with their own list of greats.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

My picks:

The Ring
Tristan und Isolde
Parsifal
Beethoven's 9th
Mass in B minor

In my opinion, these five options represent some of the greatest music I've ever heard.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

I voted even though I haven’t listened to them majority of these works, is that ok?


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Blancrocher said:


> The challenge of the work to perform must still create a sense of suspense for concert goers as opposed to home listeners to "reference" recordings; some greatness is most readily perceived in live performance, where there's an element of risk. I'll admit that the work I voted for, the WTC, is definitely a home-listening experience: the idea of going out to hear a complete recital of both books fills me with a kind of dread lol. (Though, as to that, I'd probably go if an intrepid pianist gave me the opportunity.)


I attended a live performance of the Ninth a few days ago by the Nashville symphony. The performance was fine, including the vocal parts (though it was played at a slower tempo than the previous 3.5 movements).


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

EvaBaron said:


> I voted even though I haven’t listened to them majority of these works, is that ok?


I have listened to a majority of these works, but I am not an opera fan, so out of the operas, I've watched only Don Giovanni and Parsifal in full.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

It’s all very arbitrary but so are the pieces I chose.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Philidor said:


> I am not sure whether this thread's certainties should be disturbed by real experiences of skilled listeners. You might miss the target.


Do you consider Music For 18 Musicians to be one of the greatest works of all time? 

This is Couchie's poll of the Greatest of the Greats, with 15 options, and he evidently has limited tolerance for music later than the Romantic Period. That may be why he only listed the most obvious Modernist work to include.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Some replies to random people:

I picked Giulio Cesare over Messiah because I dislike Messiah, it's tedious, too stately and self-important
Alas, Mahler 9 was supposed to be on the list but I got restricted to 25 entries (I thought the limit was 30)
Music after 1950 is a curiosity at best. Curiosities don't belong on this list
I happen to be listening to Reich right now. A favorite composer of mine, but not in the big leagues
If you think I missed a work, it's probably because it's not as great as you think it is


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Couchie said:


> If you think I missed a work, it's probably because it's not as great as you think it is


The above gave me my best laugh of the day.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Couchie said:


> Some replies to random people:
> 
> I picked Giulio Cesare over Messiah because I dislike Messiah, it's tedious, too stately and self-important
> Alas, Mahler 9 was supposed to be on the list but I got restricted to 25 entries (I thought the limit was 30)
> ...




Sometimes I feel like the more seasoned listeners that have listened to CM for a very long time forget that the warhorses are warhorses for a reason. I mean did someone seriously suggest a piece of Reich should be up there?! They know they are a part of a small percentage that dives very deep into the repertoire so they’d rather cite something very unknown or obscure because it shows they don’t just listen to the classics. I personally think you have got a great list


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Couchie said:


> If you think I missed a work, it's probably because it's not as great as you think it is


Well, last I checked, the most intelligent person in music doesn't have the same tastes as all the less intelligent people. So, I don't know what you think this list of yours is getting at besides popularity here at TC. Good luck with these polls though.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

EvaBaron said:


> I mean did someone seriously suggest a piece of Reich should be up there?! They know they are a part of a small percentage that dives very deep into the repertoire so they’d rather cite something very unknown or obscure because it shows they don’t just listen to the classics.


Philador made that suggestion, and his musical preferences are simply different than yours. By the way, Reich is one of the most well-known American composers of the past few decades.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Ethereality said:


> Well, last I checked, the most intelligent person in music doesn't have the same tastes as all the less intelligent people. So, I don't know what you think this list of yours is getting at besides popularity here at TC. Good luck with these polls though.


You flatter me. It's not really a question of intelligence, but taste. Unfortunately, taste is something you either have or your haven't. It comes from generations of high breeding, and can't be passed on from me to others so easily. I've made peace with the fact that almost everyone I encounter is going to be wrong and there's nothing I can do about it. 🙂


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Given the pictures I saw from that big party in the UK, I'm not sure "generations of high breeding" is a good idea...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> You flatter me. It's not really a question of intelligence, but taste. Unfortunately, taste is something you either have or your haven't. It comes from generations of high breeding, and can't be passed on from me to others so easily. I've made peace with the fact that almost everyone I encounter is going to be wrong and there's nothing I can do about it. 🙂


We're all green with envy. But where can we buy those big black berets?


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Couchie said:


> Some replies to random people:
> 
> I picked Giulio Cesare over Messiah because I dislike Messiah, it's tedious, too stately and self-important
> Alas, Mahler 9 was supposed to be on the list but I got restricted to 25 entries (I thought the limit was 30)
> ...


There's some great works that were composed after 1950. Few are generally considered to be candidates for Greatest of the Greats, though.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> Reich is one of the most well-known American composers of the past few decades.


You used a lot of qualifiers in that sentence. Not many CM enthusiasts would consider any compositions by American classical composers, including by the Big Name composers Ives, Copland, and Gershwin, to be candidates for the greatest of the greats of CM.

(That being said, Bartok and Dvorak wrote some of their most famous works while in America)


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Is "Greatest of the Greats" like "Holy of holies"? Do we need to be to be the High Priest to listen to them?


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

EvaBaron said:


> Sometimes I feel like the more seasoned listeners that have listened to CM for a very long time forget that the warhorses are warhorses for a reason. I mean did someone seriously suggest a piece of Reich should be up there?! They know they are a part of a small percentage that dives very deep into the repertoire so they’d rather cite something very unknown or obscure because it shows they don’t just listen to the classics. I personally think you have got a great list


Reich's Music for 18 Musicians and Perotin's Viderunt omnes are reasonably well-known among CM enthusiasts. I am surprised that someone would say they should be included in a poll of the greatest works, and I wonder if they actually love it to that extent, or if they're just showing off how experienced they are. If the former, then they still shouldn't complain about them being in the poll, because few people would select them.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

fbjim said:


> Is "Greatest of the Greats" like "Holy of holies"? Do we need to be to be the High Priest to listen to them?


Casual listeners would probably select works like Pachelbel's Canon in D, The Four Seasons, The Blue Danube, O Fortuna...stuff that more experienced listeners typically don't regard as the all-time greats. 

So to design a successful poll like this, one that CM enthusiasts would actually like, the poster needs to be aware of the consensus among CM enthusiasts, and most of the options should reflect the consensus. It shouldn't be too populist (consisting of the works that have bled into popular culture), obscure (i.e. including mostly pieces by minor composers), or too focused on one period/genre (i.e. consisting almost entirely of Romantic period orchestral works [many of the symphonies of Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Dvorak, and Mahler are contenders for a poll of the greatest works, but include too many, and people are wondering where the St. Matthew Passion, Berlioz Requiem, and Hammerklavier Sonata are]).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If we're nominating significant omissions, I'll vote for Beethoven's late quartets, as a cycle (they share thematic material and belong together). Forever amazing.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Couchie said:


> Some replies to random people:
> 
> I picked Giulio Cesare over Messiah because I dislike Messiah, it's tedious, too stately and self-important
> Alas, Mahler 9 was supposed to be on the list but I got restricted to 25 entries (I thought the limit was 30)
> ...


or maybe your taste buds are awry?


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Of the choices given:

Beethoven 5
Beethoven 9
Mendessohn VC
Tchaikovsky 6
Dvorak 9

Also ran/honorable mention: Brahms 4




A personal greatest hits (not necessarily fully thought out) in rough descending order of preference:

Beethoven 5
Elgar Cello Cto.
Tchaikovsky 2
Beethoven 9
Grieg PC
Dvorak 5
Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherazade
Sibelius VC
Tchaikovsky 4
Bach Cello Suites
Dvorak 6
Beethoven 3
Tchaikovsky PC1
Bruch VC1
Tchaikovsky 5
Tchaikovsky 1
Dvorak 8
Tchaikovsky 6
Tchaikovsky VC
Dvoark 9
Borodin 2
Kalinnikov 1
Sibelius 2
Sibelius 5
Beethoven 7
Sibelius 1

I am probably forgetting one or two (or twenty) favorites and while the sequence is in rough descending order, it is not very precise.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

for the record I positively think Music for 18 Musicians is one of the finest compositions ever made, but it's not as good as _Drumming_ nor _It's Gonna Rain_.


That said the day _It's Gonna Rain_ ends up on a Greatest of the Greats list is the day I become God-Emperor of the world.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

I think a share of the discussion is relying on some conflicts.

(1) The thread's title is suggesting something like objectiveness ("Greatest of the great?"), however, the author is suspected to have chosen subjectively:


ORigel said:


> This is Couchie's poll of the Greatest of the Greats, with 15 options, and he evidently has limited tolerance for music later than the Romantic Period.


(2) There is obviously a confusion with "quality" and "popularity", which can be observed here (among other statements):


ORigel said:


> Most CM listeners don't care much for early music or later 20th century classical music, film scores excepted. Not enough to say that the greatest of the greats come from those eras, anyway.


Needless to say that you wouldn't determine the quality of a newspaper by its circulation or the quality of a restaurant by the number of its visitors. But the thread is giving impression, that the quality of Perotin vs. Beethoven, of Mendelssohn vs. Reich can easily be measured that way.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I changed my vote to more my favorites (of these.) Attempting to be well rounded before, I realize there are no well-rounded categories. It's all subjective.



Couchie said:


> You flatter me. It's not really a question of intelligence, but taste. Unfortunately, taste is something you either have or your haven't. It comes from generations of high breeding, and can't be passed on from me to others so easily. I've made peace with the fact that almost everyone I encounter is going to be wrong and there's nothing I can do about it. 🙂


You're courageous to admit it. You're a hero. Although these works you selected for the poll are still the popular ones.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

fbjim said:


> for the record I positively think Music for 18 Musicians is one of the finest compositions ever made, but it's not as good as _Drumming_ nor _It's Gonna Rain_.
> 
> 
> That said the day _It's Gonna Rain_ ends up on a Greatest of the Greats list is the day I become God-Emperor of the world.


Personally I think _Different Trains_ is his masterpiece. If I made this poll for 20th century music it would certainly be on it.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Philidor said:


> I think a share of the discussion is relying on some conflicts.
> 
> (1) The thread's title is suggesting something like objectiveness ("Greatest of the great?"), however, the author is suspected to have chosen subjectively:
> 
> ...


Can I demand the poll includes CPE Bach's Magnificat, Haydn Symphony no. 60, Rorem Symphony no. 1, Xenakis' Persepolis, or any work I like no matter how obscure it is? No matter how useless it makes this poll?

If Perotin was commonly considered to be one of the greatest composers, it would be all but obligatory to include a work of his on the poll even if you don't like him.

P.S. Please explain what makes Perotin, Reich, or Stockhausen such great (or not) composers worthy of inclusion in this poll over (say) Nielsen, Ligeti, or M Haydn.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Reich had a significant, transformative impact on the directions of both art and popular music generally, though that depends on how much you want to associate the movement of minimalism to him specifically (certainly there were other major figures in that movement, though LMY is hampered by apparently never allowing any works of his to be recorded - anyway, one can say that about most developments in classical music).

I consider minimalist music to be one of the most important movements in 20th century music, so it's entirely reasonable in my view to have him on a list of greats, especially since my conception of being a great artist heavily favors influence and originality. That said it's not my list.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

In any case this is really just a poll of really good works so I'd caution against taking it too seriously or personally.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

ORigel said:


> Can I demand the poll includes CPE Bach's Magnificat, Haydn Symphony no. 60, Rorem Symphony no. 1, Xenakis' Persepolis, or any work I like no matter how obscure it is? No matter how useless it makes this poll?


A piece of art can do something well, but if what it does isn't valued by you, then it won't matter how _well_ it does it. One needn't find any value in a perfect fugue or a perfect minimalist piece. They both might be the best. Both polls in this hypothetical situation are equally useful or useless.

What makes music objective is not how great it is, but how similar humans often are.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

fbjim said:


> Reich had a significant, transformative impact on the directions of both art and popular music generally, though that depends on how much you want to associate the movement of minimalism to him specifically (certainly there were other major figures in that movement, though LMY is hampered by apparently never allowing any works of his to be recorded - anyway, one can say that about most developments in classical music).
> 
> I consider minimalist music to be one of the most important movements in 20th century music, so it's entirely reasonable in my view to have him on a list of greats, especially since my conception of being a great artist heavily favors influence and originality. That said it's not my list.


It's fine to have one or three great works that are not the classics on a poll. However, it's neccessary to favor works that the target audience would select. An example is Giulio Cesare on this poll. Some consider it one of the greatest Baroque operas, so it has a claim to being on here, but it only received one vote so far on a poll that allows multiple choices. If the poll mainly included great works like Giulio Cesare, or great works by Reich, or great works of early music, it wouldn't be a useful poll. But since it consists of great popular works, this poll got 55 votes so far including 24 for the beloved Beethoven Ninth!


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Blancrocher said:


> The challenge of the work to perform must still create a sense of suspense for concert goers as opposed to home listeners to "reference" recordings; some greatness is most readily perceived in live performance, where there's an element of risk. I'll admit that the work I voted for, the WTC, is definitely a home-listening experience: the idea of going out to hear a complete recital of both books fills me with a kind of dread lol. (Though, as to that, I'd probably go if an intrepid pianist gave me the opportunity.)


Ms HJ Lim plays the wtc very fast.


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

Bach, Wagner and Beethoven, among giant composers, were able to open the skies for us in their main masterpieces.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

ORigel said:


> It's fine to have one or three great works that are not the classics on a poll. However, it's neccessary to favor works that the target audience would select.


Yes, and the target audience here is TC members, not casual listeners. Although Handel's opera only has 1 vote, that doesn't mean that it's thought poorly of by the voters; the list is full of big-time works.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

ORigel said:


> P.S. Please explain what makes Perotin, Reich, or Stockhausen such great (or not) composers worthy of inclusion in this poll over (say) Nielsen, Ligeti, or M Haydn.


To my mind, it is difficult to compare composers for "greatness". Was Mozart greater than Schubert or vice versa? Was Bruckner greater than Brahms or the other way round? Perotin or Stockhausen?

I wouldn't go to such lengths saying than someone comparing two composers for greatness still has some way to go to get a basic understanding of art.

Even comparing "greatness" of two pieces, say, Mozart's Requiem and Schönberg's String Trio, is difficult imho. Is Beethoven's op. 111 "greater" than op. 106 or op. 57?

Personally, I appreciate innovative ways of art very much. Perotin's "Viderunt omnes" was innovative. We don't know whether it really was the first music with four independent parts in european music, but it gives a point without which all the other miracles by Bach, Haydn, Beethoven e tutti quanti are not imaginable. (Well, you could argue that if Perotin hadn't done it, some other guy would have done it, maybe some years or decades later. True. But the same holds for Tristan.)

Michael Haydn was far less innovative, if I am not completely wrong. However, I would be glad to learn, if so.

But that's not what the poll is about. To my best understanding, the poll is measuring the degree of positive resonance the participants got into listening the pieces in question. And the result will deliver exactly what has been measured: A resonance phenomenon, telling something about the pieces and telling something about the participants. That's fine, but it is only partially related to such things as "greatness".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Philidor said:


> Personally, I appreciate innovative ways of art very much. Perotin's "Viderunt omnes" was innovative. We don't know whether it really was the first music with four independent parts in european music, but it gives a point without which all the other miracles by Bach, Haydn, Beethoven e tutti quanti are not imaginable. (Well, *you could argue that if Perotin hadn't done it, some other guy would have done it, maybe some years or decades later. True. But the same holds for Tristan.)*


I see little reason to think that anyone but Wagner would ever have produced anything like _Tristan_. _Tristan_ is a very specific and extraordinary work of art, the product of a singular temperament and imagination.. A four-part texture is just a structural idea, waiting for someone to hit upon it.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

I mentioned Tristan for its innovative use of chromaticism, not for the story. For the whole, the story and the progressive harmonic, its length, its reduction of outer action to minimum and probaly many other aspects, its is fully unique, I agree.


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## hoodjem (Feb 23, 2019)

Beethoven's _Missa Solemnis_ needs to be a choice.

I know some very intelligent persons who would place it above the 5th Symphony, and maybe even above the 9th.
And Schubert's _Death and the Maiden_ but no Beethoven opus 132?

An unusual list: three Wagner choices, three Mozart choices, two Mahler choices, but only two Beethoven choices, only two Schubert choices, and only one Handel choice.
Alas.


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## Laraine Anne Barker (8 mo ago)

Couchie said:


> Which are the most Titanic of Titans? You may select up to five (5).


Thanks but you don't have my number one, Mozart's Haydn string quartets. I too prefer any Mozart opera to Wagner. I'm allergic to Wagner. So is my Computer and you should see what it wrote, twice, instead of Wagner. Oh it got it right that time! Previously it wrote a four letter word starting with F followed by no.


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## srjones10 (Nov 9, 2017)

Impossible. A Sophie's Choice decision required.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

hoodjem said:


> Beethoven's _Missa Solemnis_ needs to be a choice.
> 
> I know some very intelligent persons who would place it above the 5th Symphony, and maybe even above the 9th.
> And Schubert's _Death and the Maiden_ but no Beethoven opus 132?
> ...


Couchie doesn't like the Messiah, apparently.


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## suecello (Oct 27, 2017)

EvaBaron said:


> I have never heard anything by Mendelssohn except his violin concerto and 4th symphony and so I feel perfectly qualified to say that his best work is his violin concerto


May I suggest you listen to his Octet?


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

suecello said:


> May I suggest you listen to his Octet?


You may suggest that. May you suggest a good recording of it?


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

bagpipers said:


> I want to write in
> Beethoven SQ 13,14,15,16
> 
> Berg Violin concerto
> ...


That's eight!


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Steatopygous said:


> That's eight!


Wasn't counting ,just thinking outloud


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> You may suggest that. May you suggest a good recording of it?


the one recorded by Heifetz, Piatagorstky & co


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

marlow said:


> the one recorded by Heifetz, Piatagorstky & co


I’ll listen to it tonight


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

EvaBaron said:


> I’ll listen to it tonight


If you're still in the mood for Mendelssohn, I suggest you to listen to his other symphonies as well. Nos. 2 "Hymn of Praise" and 3 "Scottish" (actually his last two chronologically) are very, very good in my opinion.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Missing Sibelius is obviously a huge error. I would take half of Sibelius's symphonies over at least half of the works in the list. 

But from the list, my five are WTC, Beethoven's 5 and 9, Brahms 4 and The Rite of Spring.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

hoodjem said:


> Beethoven's _Missa Solemnis_ needs to be a choice.
> 
> I know some very intelligent persons who would place it above the 5th Symphony, and maybe even above the 9th.
> And Schubert's _Death and the Maiden_ but no Beethoven opus 132?
> ...


yes and the Mozart works are all vocal. But I just accepted the challenge to select 5 works. No complaints.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Xisten267 said:


> If you're still in the mood for Mendelssohn, I suggest you to listen to his other symphonies as well. Nos. 2 "Hymn of Praise" and 3 "Scottish" (actually his last two chronologically) are very, very good in my opinion.


I might start with the 3rd symphony actually, with the maag recording. I really like the 4th symphony and the octet is amazing


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

EvaBaron said:


> I might start with the 3rd symphony actually, with the maag recording. I really like the 4th symphony and the octet is amazing


I think the Hymn of Praise (Symphony 2) is often dull. Lots of people agree with me on that. While Symphony 1 is mostly ignored, Symphony 2 is the most criticized. I like the second movement, though.

Symphony 5, the Reformation symphony, is very good (especially the first movement).


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## Disco (Mar 19, 2020)

Great classics


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

ORigel said:


> I think the Hymn of Praise (Symphony 2) is often dull. Lots of people agree with me on that. While Symphony 1 is mostly ignored, Symphony 2 is the most criticized. I like the second movement, though.
> 
> Symphony 5, the Reformation symphony, is very good (especially the first movement).


if you think symphony 2 is dull listen to Karajan.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

marlow said:


> if you think symphony 2 is dull listen to Karajan.


I did.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

ORigel said:


> I think the Hymn of Praise (Symphony 2) is often dull. *Lots of people agree with me on that.* While Symphony 1 is mostly ignored, Symphony 2 is the most criticized. I like the second movement, though.


Not necessarily a consensus is the best guide to a listener: two hundred years ago, lots of people didn't care for J.S. Bach; one hundred years ago, Vivaldi was mostly ignored; fifty years ago, Mahler was seem by many as a second rate symphonist. What if the people that agree that the _Hymn of Praise_ is dull nowadays are just plain wrong, and in the future they reconsider? My ears and brain tell me that it's a quite good and exciting symphony.

By the way, it may be that _the performances _you listened to are dull. I suggest you to try the Abbado/LSO (the recording I linkened in post #88).



EvaBaron said:


> I might start with the 3rd symphony actually, with the maag recording. I really like the 4th symphony and the octet is amazing


If you enjoyed symphonies nos. 3 and 4, chances are that you may like the _Hymn of Praise_ as well. It's Mendelssohn fifth and final (by order of beginning of composition) work in the symphonic genre. Don't hear the naysayers, it's a solid work. But it's his longest symphony, and you may need to listen to it a few times with attention before assimilating it, particularly the vocal part - just like a Mahler symphony.

The _Hymn of Praise_ may serve you as an introduction to Mendelssohn's vocal style as well; if you like it, chances are that you may also enjoy his other vocal works, particularly the oratorio _Elijah_, one of his final and most ambitious pieces.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Xisten267 said:


> Not necessarily a consensus is the best guide to a listener: two hundred years ago, lots of people didn't care for J.S. Bach; one hundred years ago, Vivaldi was mostly ignored; fifty years ago, Mahler was seem by many as a second rate symphonist. What if the people that agree that the _Hymn of Praise_ is dull nowadays are just plain wrong, and in the future they reconsider? My ears and brain tell me that it's a quite good and exciting symphony.
> 
> By the way, it may be that _the performances _you listened to are dull. I suggest you to try the Abbado/LSO (the recording I linkened in post #88).
> 
> ...


I still have some difficulty with vocal works for some reason, so first I will be trying 3 tonight and then we’ll see. I’m of course planning to listen to all of his symphonies at some point


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Xisten267 said:


> If you're still in the mood for Mendelssohn, I suggest you to listen to his other symphonies as well. Nos. 2 "Hymn of Praise" and 3 "Scottish" (actually his last two chronologically) are very, very good in my opinion.


So I just finished listening to 3 and just wow. The opening of the symphony is amazing and such a contrast to the opening of the 4th. I have only listened to it once and I already like it better than the 4th. Feels more mature to me, also because of the length. Still really like the 4th though but this is on another level.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

EvaBaron said:


> So I just finished listening to 3 and just wow. The opening of the symphony is amazing and such a contrast to the opening of the 4th. I have only listened to it once and I already like it better than the 4th. Feels more mature to me, also because of the length. Still really like the 4th though but this is on another level.


Mendelssohn is an amazing composer in my opinion. I think that you will find great music that you may enjoy if you keep exploring his works.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Xisten267 said:


> Mendelssohn is an amazing composer in my opinion. I think that you will find great music that you may enjoy if you keep exploring his works.


After the Mendelssohn 4th I also listened the Hebrides cage overture (szell) because it was also in the album and with the 3rd I also listened to a midsummer’s night dream overture (maag). I really like both overtures so will definitely be returning to those as well and the recordings served me well, I liked them a lot. Any crazy good recordings I should check out of the symphonies or also individually the overtures?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

EvaBaron said:


> After the Mendelssohn 4th I also listened the Hebrides cage overture (szell) because it was also in the album and with the 3rd I also listened to a midsummer’s night dream overture (maag). I really like both overtures so will definitely be returning to those as well and the recordings served me well, I liked them a lot. Any crazy good recordings I should check out of the symphonies or also individually the overtures?


I really like Bernstein/NYP and Abbado/LSO for them, and that's why I recommended these performances to you (you may want to check the links at post #88 of this thread, quoted below). If you don't like them, or if you just want more recommendations, I suggest you to take a look at Trout's blog entries (these may be useful to find great recordings of works by other composers too).



Xisten267 said:


> If you're still in the mood for Mendelssohn, I suggest you to listen to his other symphonies as well. Nos. 2 "Hymn of Praise" and 3 "Scottish" (actually his last two chronologically) are very, very good in my opinion.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Xisten267 said:


> I really like Bernstein/NYP and Abbado/LSO for them, and that's why I recommended these performances to you (you may want to check the links at post #88 of this thread, quoted below). If you don't like them, or if you want more recommendations, I suggest you to take a look at Trout's blog entries (these may be useful to use great recordings of other works too).


Hahaha i didn’t realise they were links, it’s late 
I’ll check them out tomorrow!


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

EvaBaron said:


> Hahaha i didn’t realise they were links, it’s late
> I’ll check them out tomorrow!


Just a final word about the _Hymn of Praise _before you listen to it: it's one of the earliest examples of a vocal symphony by a major composer after Beethoven invented the genre, and the cantata part is divided in ten movements. I remember to be quite lost at my first listening of the cantata, and listening to each movement separately later helped me to assimilate it. I suggest you to do the same if you feel like doing so. Here is the structure of the work.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Xisten267 said:


> Not necessarily a consensus is the best guide to a listener: two hundred years ago, lots of people didn't care for J.S. Bach; one hundred years ago, Vivaldi was mostly ignored; fifty years ago, Mahler was seem by many as a second rate symphonist. What if the people that agree that the _Hymn of Praise_ is dull nowadays are just plain wrong, and in the future they reconsider? My ears and brain tell me that it's a quite good and exciting symphony.
> 
> By the way, it may be that _the performances _you listened to are dull. I suggest you to try the Abbado/LSO (the recording I linkened in post #88).
> 
> ...


_Elijah_ is one of my favorite works. The best part is probably the competition with the prophets of Baal.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

EvaBaron said:


> I still have some difficulty with vocal works for some reason, so first I will be trying 3 tonight and then we’ll see. I’m of course planning to listen to all of his symphonies at some point


Don't forget the string symphonies, which advance in style from the late Baroque to Mendelssohn's own time.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

So this thread should be renamed "Getting into Mendelssohn".


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

most of these works wouldn't get into my top 100. The highest would be Tchaik 6 around 30 probably, Dvorak 9 and Death and the Maiden would probably be the other leading contenders to sneak in with the two Brahms works not far behind. None of the others (apart from the Beethoven) I even have in my collection. Objective greatness is harder to evaluate of course but the list seems pretty arbitrary -- not a single Beethoven string quartet??!!


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

It's not a great list and obviously heavily tilted towards opera and choral works. However, I'd expect the typical collector/classical music enthusiast of a decade or more to have most of them on their shelves, except Giulio Cesare and Boris Godunov, both of which seem to be on the fringe of the standard opera repertoire. To have less than half of these 25 pieces I'd find a bit odd, unless one really doesn't care for opera/choral at all.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

dko22 said:


> most of these works wouldn't get into my top 100. The highest would be Tchaik 6 around 30 probably, Dvorak 9 and Death and the Maiden would probably be the other leading contenders to sneak in with the two Brahms works not far behind. None of the others (apart from the Beethoven) I even have in my collection. Objective greatness is harder to evaluate of course but the list seems pretty arbitrary -- not a single Beethoven string quartet??!!


The list is _not _arbitrary. It has:
--Three of the highest-rated Bach works
--Two popular Mozart operas, and the Requiem which just about everyone loves
--The two most loved Beethoven symphonies (the lack of a Beethoven string quartet or piano sonata is glaring)
--Giulio Cesare, which is not popular but considered one of Handel's greatest works (the lack of _Messiah_ is astonishing but Couchie doesn't like the work)
--The most famous Berlioz work
--Two highly-rated Schubert works, a great song cycle and great string quartet
--One of the greatest violin concertos
--Boris Godunov is not that popular or considered to be among the greatest
--Three of the highest rated Wagner works/cycles. Couchie loves Wagner
--Two highly-rated Brahms works
--A Verdi opera; the highest-rated Tchaikovsky work; the most popular Dvorak work
--Two of Mahler's greatest works
--The highest-rated Modernist work


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

It's a good list for Bach, Mozart, Wagner. It's barely o.k. for Brahms, Beethoven and "one work composers" like Dvorak and Berlioz, Otello is already quite debatable...
It totally sucks as it has no Haydn (The creation is clearly more popular than Julius Caesar), nor Schumann, Chopin, Bruckner, Bartok, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Berg etc. but instead Boris Godunov and too much Wagner (more than half of his output...)


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Kreisler jr said:


> It's a good list for Bach, Mozart, Wagner. It's barely o.k. for Brahms, Beethoven and "one work composers" like Dvorak and Berlioz, Otello is already quite debatable...
> It totally sucks as it has no Haydn (The creation is clearly more popular than Julius Caesar), nor Schumann, Chopin, Bruckner, Bartok, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Berg etc. but instead Boris Godunov and too much Wagner (more than half of his output...)


You are free to make your own poll. IMO, it's fine to slant a poll towards your own favorites while still keeping some variety.

My poll would consist of more chamber music and less opera. However, it wouldn't have 20th century music beyond Mahler and The Rite of Spring.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

ORigel said:


> You are free to make your own poll. IMO, it's fine to slant a poll towards your own favorites while still keeping some variety.


Agreed. Seems that most folks would rather criticize the polls made by others than start their own.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

From the TC Top recommended works, the list includes representative works from 9 categories shown below with the rank of the works selected:

Opera: 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 12, 15, 32 (Boris Godunov)
Symphonies: 1, 2, 7, 10, 11, 13, 21 (Symphony Fantastique )
Piano Concertos: 2
Violin Concertos: 2
Solo Keyboard: 1
String chamber: 3
Choral: 1. 3. 4
Orchestral (other): 1
Art Songs: 1, 2

One could argue with some of the higher ranked operas and symphonies, but the other selections seem quite reasonable to me. Anyway, polls on TC are not meant to be factually correct in any sense and most view them as fun and informational (they give a sense of what the TC community believes about a given subject). 

My poll would have been somewhat different. I probably would have selected the highest ranking works from each category making an arbitrary decision of how many to select from each category. But this is Couchie's poll and not mine.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

My poll would be very different too (many more symphonies, piano sonatas and string quartets and no operas or choral works, for example). To be honest, I don't know why I go into "greatest" threads. Maybe it's the innate curiousity to see what others find the greatest but I know from experience that my greatest is not infrequently not on anyone else's greatest list and that many greatest pieces on other lists are not on mine.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

The very idea of this poll is inane, so one would join this inanity in creating one's own. But I plead guilty for having wielded a whip against a mostly dead horse..


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> It's not a great list and obviously heavily tilted towards opera and choral works. However, I'd expect the typical collector/classical music enthusiast of a decade or more to have most of them on their shelves, except Giulio Cesare and Boris Godunov, both of which seem to be on the fringe of the standard opera repertoire. To have less than half of these 25 pieces I'd find a bit odd, unless one really doesn't care for opera/choral at all.


as you say, the list is heavily biased towards opera and choral works -- and the wrong sort of opera and choral works for my taste. I sincerely hope there is not such a thing as a typical collector of classical music -- if there is, I am obviously not it as much of this list is simply of no interest to me. Incidentally, Boris Godunov is hardly fringe repertoire - it's among the most performed of all Russian operas (in fact it was on this season here) if hardly one of the best .


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

Why does Beethoven's 9th have double the votes of the 5th? Is it because it's twice as long and contains a song?


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> Why does Beethoven's 9th have double the votes of the 5th? Is it because it's twice as long and contains a song?


That's part of the reason for me. But I was forced to choose, I'd sacrifice the whole of the Fifth symphony for just the first (or last) movement of the Ninth.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> Why does Beethoven's 9th have double the votes of the 5th? Is it because it's twice as long and contains a song?


I don’t rate it higher because it has a song. I voted for the 9th because the first 3 movements of the 9th I like better than the first 3 movements of the 5th. That’s not meant to be in any way a derogatory statement towards the 5th: I absolutely love it. However, I love the 9th even more


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

EvaBaron said:


> I don’t rate it higher because it has a song. I voted for the 9th because the first 3 movements of the 9th I like better than the first 3 movements of the 5th. That’s not meant to be in any way a derogatory statement towards the 5th: I absolutely love it. However, I love the 9th even more


I like the Seventh Symphony more than the Fifth _because_ it's of equally high quality while being roughly 10 minutes longer.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Kreisler jr said:


> ...... "one work composers" like Dvorak ..........


Dvořák a one hit wonder ???!!!!!???

Symphony No. 3
Symphony No. 5
Symphony No. 6
Symphony No. 7
Symphony No. 8
Symphony No. 9
Cello Concerto
Violin Concerto
SQ. No. 12
SQ. No. 13
String Quintet No. 3
Carnival Overture
Water Goblin
Slavonic Dances (both the piano and orchestrated versions)
Hussite Overture
The Wild Dove
Czech Suite
American Suite

Several great operas if that is your thing.
I only listed a couple of his string quartets, he wrote several that are masterpieces.
I skipped many lesser known but true masterpieces ..................


_P.S.: Reareading Kreisler jr's original post, I wonder if he meant "represented by one work in the poll", rather than Dvořák being a one hit wonder, and if so my apologies, but to a great extent my point still stands._


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I was able to vote only Beethoven’s 9th.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

ORigel said:


> --Boris Godunov is not that popular or considered to be among the greatest


By whom?_ Boris Godunov_ is the Russian _Tristan _in terms of influence. And if _Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg_ is the quintessential German opera, _Boris_ is surely the equivalent for Russian opera.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Couchie said:


> And if _Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg_ is the quintessential German opera


May I doubt that?

"Der Freischütz" is a more obvious candidate with its forest and the belief in supernatural forces, followed by the Zauberflöte, Hänsel und Gretel, not to forget Tristan for its longing for death, and Siegfried for the real German heroic tale. - Everything imho, of course.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I think even Wagner agreed with that assessment of Der Freischutz, hah. Didn't he call it "the most German of operas", or something along those lines?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Philidor said:


> May I doubt that?
> 
> "Der Freischütz" is a more obvious candidate with its forest and the belief in supernatural forces, followed by the Zauberflöte, Hänsel und Gretel, not to forget Tristan for its longing for death, and Siegfried for the real German heroic tale. - Everything imho, of course.


So Germans are superstitious, silly, belligerent ignoramuses with a sweet tooth and a death wish? As somebody 1/4 German, I am offended my good sir!


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Order of preference of the works in the poll _today_:

1. Beethoven: Symphony no. 9
2. Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelugen
3. Wagner: Tristan und Isolde
4. Wagner: Parsifal
5. Bach: Mass in B Minor
6. Bach: St. Matthew Passion
7. Beethoven: Symphony no. 5
8. Tchaikovsky: Symphony no. 6
9. Mozart: Requiem Mass
10. Brahms: Symphony no. 4
11. Verdi: Otello
12. Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
13. Brahms: Piano Concerto no. 2
14. Bach: The Well-Tempered Clavier
15. Mendelssohn: Violin Concerto
16. Dvořák: Symphony no. 9
17. Mahler: Symphony no. 2
18. Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring
19. Schubert: Death and the Maiden
20. Berlioz: Symphony Fantastique
21. Mozart: Le Nozze di Figaro
22. Mozart: Don Giovanni
23. Handel: Giulio Cesare
24. Schubert: Winterreise

With a few exceptions, non-orchestrated lieder and pieces with many _secco_ recitatives tend to not be my cup of tea. 

The only work in the list I've never listened to in it's entirety is _Boris Godunov_.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Oooooh, that's fun.

1. Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
2. Bach: St. Matthew Passion
3. Schubert: Winterreise
4. Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelugen
5. Mendelssohn: Violin Concerto
6. Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring
7. Mahler: Symphony no. 2
8. Berlioz: Symphony Fantastique
9. Schubert: Death and the Maiden
10. Dvořák: Symphony no. 9
11. Mozart: Requiem Mass
12. Brahms: Symphony no. 4
13. Bach: The Well-Tempered Clavier 
14. Tchaikovsky: Symphony no. 6

15. Wagner: Tristan und Isolde
16. Beethoven: Symphony no. 5
17. Brahms: Piano Concerto no. 2
18. Wagner: Parsifal
19. Bach: Mass in B Minor
20. Mussorgsky: Boris Godunov

21. Mozart: Don Giovanni
22. Mozart: Le Nozze di Figaro
23. Verdi: Othello
24. Handel: Giulio Cesare
25. Beethoven: Symphony no. 9


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Art Rock said:


> Oooooh, that's fun.
> 
> 1. Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
> 2. Bach: St. Matthew Passion
> ...


Somehow I imagined that you would have placed Mahler's symphony no. 2 higher in your list. I greatly enjoy it, but to my current taste his symphonies nos. 4, 6 and 9, plus DLVDE, come first.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Xisten267 said:


> Somehow I imagined that you would have placed Mahler's symphony no. 2 higher in your list. I greatly enjoy it, but to my current taste his symphonies nos. 4, 6 and 9, plus DLVDE, come first.


I'd agree with that (my ranking would be DLVDE, 4, 9, Kindertotenlieder, 6, Ruckert Lieder, 2).


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Brahms: Symphony no. 4
Mahler: Symphony no. 2
Brahms: Piano Concerto no. 2
Bach: St. Matthew Passion
Schubert: Winterreise
Bach: The Well-Tempered Clavier
Dvořák: Symphony no. 9
Schubert: Death and the Maiden
Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring
Bach: Mass in B Minor
Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
Beethoven: Symphony no. 5
Beethoven: Symphony no. 9
Mendelssohn: Violin Concerto
Mozart: Requiem Mass
Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelugen
Wagner: Tristan und Isolde
Wagner: Parsifal 
Mussorgsky: Boris Godunov
Mozart: Don Giovanni
Berlioz: Symphony Fantastique
Verdi: Otello
Mozart: Le Nozze di Figaro
Tchaikovsky: Symphony no. 6

I either haven`t listened or don`t remember Handel`s Giulio Cesare.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Xisten267 said:


> Order of preference of the works in the poll _today_:
> 
> 1. Beethoven: Symphony no. 9
> 2. Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelugen
> ...


You, sir, have exceptional taste.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Art Rock said:


> Oooooh, that's fun.
> 
> 1. Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
> 25. Beethoven: Symphony no. 9


I thought of you when I added these to the poll, and this is what I expected.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

My Top Eleven:

Bach - Well-Tempered Clavier
Bach - Mass in B minor
Mozart - Requiem
Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique
Bach - St. Matthew Passion
Mahler - Das Lied von der Erde
Mahler - Symphony no. 2
Beethoven - Symphony no. 9
Brahms - Piano Concerto no. 2
Stravinsky - Rite of Spring
Handel - Giulio Cesare

Bottom Two:

Mendelssohn - Violin Concerto
Tchaikovsky - Symphony no. 6


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

These works are among my favorites and generally in this order:

Mozart: Don Giovanni
Bach: Mass in B Minor
Verdi: Otello
Bach: The Well-Tempered Clavier
Mozart: Le Nozze di Figaro
Bach: St. Matthew Passion
Mozart: Requiem Mass
Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelugen
Wagner: Tristan und Isolde
Schubert: Death and the Maiden
Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
Schubert: Winterreise
Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring
Wagner: Parsifal

The rest I hardly listen to and can't really rank. However there's a number of works missing from the list that would complete my list if available, e.g. more Bach, Verdi, and Mozart.


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