# Are there (or why aren't there) note durations such as 1/3, 1/5 etc?



## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Yeah, I know about dotted notes, but it still belongs to the category of notes derived from fractions in which denominator is 2^n in which n is integer.
So, a quarter note with a dot is 3/8 of the whole note... or 0.375 durations of whole note.

But why aren't there notes like 1/3 or 1/5 ?
Did anyone invent symbols for it?

I guess someone must have had such an idea or maybe even experimented with it, but I don't know of any examples.

Is it possible to combine notes like 1/3 or 1/5 with "regular" notes such as 1/2, 1/4, 1/8... etc in a meaningful way?


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

ZJovicic said:


> Yeah, I know about dotted notes, but it still belongs to the category of notes derived from fractions in which denominator is 2^n in which n is integer.


Prior to about 1600, notes that represented ternary subdivisions were quite common. They were actually more standard than binary subdivisions: ternary subdivisions were called "perfect" while binary ones were "imperfect." (3 being a more perfect number than 2 for obvious symbolic reasons.) When new conventions of notation evolved in the 1600s, the dot was the most convenient way to indicate ternary subdivisions, so that's why to our modern eyes dotted rhythms appear to be premised on a binary system.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

There are all sorts of weird note durations. They start with duplets which is basically a fancy way of writing two dotted notes. Then you move up to a triplet which is a genuine 2/3 note - e.g. three quavers played in the same time as two quavers. You can then move up to a quintuplet - e.g. five quavers played in the same time as two quavers and so on up.

The basic thing is that there aren't 1/3 or 1/5 notes but rather 2/3 or 2/5 notes because of the fact that you play x notes in the time of 2.

Yes it's possible to combine triplets or quintuplets with ordinary notes. The trick is to keep the beat steady in each hand. The alternative is to divide the beat. With a triplet (3) against two notes, you have 6 beats ( 3 x 2 ) to consider - the triplet notes come on beats 1, 3 and 5 and the ordinary notes on beats 1 and 4. You can even go crazy and have quaver ( 1/8 notes) triplets against semi-quavers (1/16 notes) this would give a beat divided into 12 with the triplets on beats 1, 5 and 9 and the semi-quavers on beats 1, 4, 7 and 10. There are similar techniques for matching quintuplets against triplets or any combination you want.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Taggart said:


> Yes it's possible to combine triplets or quintuplets with ordinary notes. The trick is to keep the beat steady in each hand. The alternative is to divide the beat. With a triplet (3) against two notes, you have 6 beats ( 3 x 2 ) to consider - the triplet notes come on beats 1, 3 and 5 and the ordinary notes on beats 1 and 4. You can even go crazy and have quaver ( 1/8 notes) triplets against semi-quavers (1/16 notes) this would give a beat divided into 12 with the triplets on beats 1, 5 and 9 and the semi-quavers on beats 1, 4, 7 and 10. There are similar techniques for matching quintuplets against triplets or any combination you want.


If I ever play piano again I'll try it out - playing different rhythms in the two hands is a trick I could never master, no matter how much I practiced.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Do you mean triplets and quintuplets? Those are commonplace, as is their combination with duple divisions. See the slow movement of Beethoven's Sonata Op. 2#1 for 4 against 3 and Rachmaninoff's Prelude in G major for 5 against 4 and 5 against 3. For some reason 5 against 3 is relatively easy to execute, while 5 against 4 is less so, for me at least.

If you are interested in 1/3 and 1/5 meters, those exist too. 1/3 is generally called 3/8, but is counted as one beat to the measure with each eighth getting a third of a beat. 1/5 likewise: Written as 5/16 or a fast 5/8, counted "in one" with each 16th (or 8th) getting a fifth of a beat.

It is quite easy to get these triple and quintuple divisions against duple ones and it happens all the time.


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