# The "Pastoral" Symphony 6 by Beethoven



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Is his best work from start to finish. Nothing else comes close!

Refute this assertion.

:tiphat:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Is his best work from start to finish. Nothing else comes close!
> 
> Refute this assertion.


Edward G. Robinson would agree with you, 100%.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Is his best work from start to finish. Nothing else comes close!
> 
> Refute this assertion.
> 
> :tiphat:


It's irrefutable.

That doesn't mean it's true.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> It's irrefutable.
> 
> That doesn't mean it's true.


How is it irrefutable?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Captainnumber36 said:


> How is it irrefutable?


(Kicks Beethoven) Thus I refute thee!

(Apologies to Dr. Johnson)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> How is it irrefutable?


In any way whatsoever.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

No 7 comes pretty close if not equal.



> Another admirer, Richard Wagner, referring to the lively rhythms which permeate the work, called it the "apotheosis of the dance".[8]


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beecham on No. 7: "It's like a lot of yaks jumping about."


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

Pugg said:


> No 7 comes pretty close if not equal.


well i like 8..... there!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ldiat said:


> well i like 8..... there!


No four is most exceptional also.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

His 6th is a masterpiece but I am very meticulous with my ratings and rankings so, although I recognize it is deserving of very great praise, he also has other masterpieces that are of an even higher order (imo). I separated these selections into two sets -- those I feel are definitely superior to the 6th (per my own standards/criteria) and those that are arguably (slightly) better, roughly equal, or perhaps slightly weaker.

*DEFINITELY SUPERIOR*
Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" (1824)
String Quartet No. 15 in A Minor (1825) 
Symphony No. 5 in C Minor (1808)
String Quartet No. 14 in C-sharp Minor (1826)
Missa Solemnis (1823)
Fidelio (1805; revised 1806-1814)

*ARGUABLY - SLIGHTLY BETTER/CLOSE/EQUAL*
Symphony No. 3 in E-flat Major "Eroica" (1804)
Piano Sonata No. 32 in C Minor (1822) 
Symphony No. 7 in A Major (1812) 
Violin Concerto in D Major (1806)
Piano Sonata No. 23 in F Minor "Appassionata" (1805) 
Piano Sonata No. 30 in E Major (1820) 
Piano Sonata No. 29 in B-flat Major "Hammerklavier" (1818) 
String Quartet No. 13 in B-flat Major (Original Composition with Grosse Fugue) (1825)


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Is his best work from start to finish. Nothing else comes close!
> 
> Refute this assertion.
> 
> :tiphat:


Could it be said that it's his best work from start to about half way through? I mean, is "start to finish" necessary?

6th was the first I liked, but I prefer 3rd, 9th, 5th, 8th now.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Could it be said that it's his best work from start to about half way through? I mean, is "start to finish" necessary?
> 
> 6th was the first I liked, but I prefer 3rd, 9th, 5th, 8th now.


Yes, you can easily like sections of the piece and not enjoy the whole.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Yes, you can easily like sections of the piece and not enjoy the whole.


Yes, of course, I know that. My point was whether you can say it is his best piece from this point to that point - if it's his best piece, to say "from start to finish" is redundant. It can't be his best piece only in part, can it?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Yes, of course, I know that. My point was whether you can say it is his best piece from this point to that point - if it's his best piece, to say "from start to finish" is redundant. It can't be his best piece only in part, can it?


Utilizing that assertion adds to the feeling of triumph of Beethoven in composing this piece and to his admirers. Indeed this composer created something grand, all the way through from start to finish.

Simply put, it adds energy to the assertion and will spark stronger responses.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It’s always seemed to me that Beethoven’s pastoral scenes could support some profitable commercial ventures. For example, “Scene by the Brook.” We hear the babbling of gently flowing water, the calls of the birds, and so forth. That suggests a nice condo community; we’ll call it “Brookside.” Maybe a hundred units or so. We’ll need some flood control work, of course, but nothing a few hundred cubic yards of concrete and some bulldozers can’t handle.

We can place the development’s commercial center up above a bit, on the hillside. And below that, apartment complexes, fast food restaurants, and so forth. All we need to do is lay out the roads, arrange for utility extensions, plan traffic lights, and get zoning approval.

Investment opportunities are available now. Look up “Beethoven Land Improvements” on your browser!


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## Holden4th (Jul 14, 2017)

I can't refute the assertion as I agree with you. This is my favourite symphony full stop!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

On a warmer note, here's Sir George Grove on Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony, 1896:

"...it is impossible not to feel deep gratitude to this great composer for the complete and unalloyed pleasure which he here puts within our reach. Gratitude, and also astonishment... What boldness, what breadth, what beauty! What a cheerful, genial, beneficent view over the whole realm of Nature and man... To hear it is like contemplating not a work of art, or man's device, but a mountain, or forest, or other immense product of Nature -- at once so complex and so simple; the whole so great and overpowering; the parts so minute, so lovely, and so consistent; and the effect so inspiring, so beneficial, and so elevating."


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2017)

KenOC said:


> On a warmer note, here's Sir George Grove on Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony, 1896:
> 
> "...it is impossible not to feel deep gratitude to this great composer for the complete and unalloyed pleasure which he here puts within our reach. Gratitude, and also astonishment... What boldness, what breadth, what beauty! What a cheerful, genial, beneficent view over the whole realm of Nature and man... To hear it is like contemplating not a work of art, or man's device, but a mountain, or forest, or other immense product of Nature -- at once so complex and so simple; the whole so great and overpowering; the parts so minute, so lovely, and so consistent; and the effect so inspiring, so beneficial, and so elevating."


...but he doesn't say 'genius'! :devil:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> ...but he doesn't say 'genius'! :devil:


Well, he says "genial." Per Merriam-Webster, "displaying or marked by genius."


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Well, he says "genial." Per Merriam-Webster, "displaying or marked by genius."


Per Oxford - friendly, cheerful (or even mild and warm!)


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

No refutation of course. It's your personal taste, and one I happen to share.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Try Fritz Reiner’s 6th with the CSO. He never breaks the mood.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

It's irrefutable because such a judgment is completely subjective and your criteria for best may be different from mine. (Like trying to argue whether or not Trump is a "great" President.)


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

My Beethoven fave list is ever-revolving. First loved the 3rd, then the 6th, then the 7th, and back and forth. Now I love the 4th at the moment: that 2nd movement is sublime. The joy of Beethoven is that his ouevre is constantly revealing new magic, such that you can never get a completely full view of one work. That is the nature of art.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MarkW said:


> It's irrefutable because such a judgment is completely subjective and your criteria for best may be different from mine. *(Like trying to argue whether or not Trump is a "great" President.)*


Not subjective. Easily refutable. Not all criteria are valid.


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

Pugg said:


> No four is most exceptional also.


still, four +four= 8


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Is his best work from start to finish. Nothing else comes close!
> 
> Refute this assertion.
> 
> :tiphat:


I think it is his most organic symphony. In the first movement, as someone observed, each joint of the theme germinates and throws off phrases related to the stem in rhythm or interval. It might not be a stretch to say it anticipates Sibelius.

It is also pre-minimalist in that, especially in the first movement, it features repetition which is not monotonous with a slow rate of harmonic change. In measure 16, a phrase is repeated 16 times!

it is also suitable for depiction in cartoons, from Walt Disney to The Simpsons.

Is it his best? I don't know. Does it relate to listeners in the 20th Century and beyond? I would say so.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Personally I prefer the 7th, 4th, 8th, 9th and 3rd but hey, if that's yer thing then it's irrefutable.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Sym #6 "Pastorale" is a great work....I don't know if it's Beethoven's best, but it is a remarkable creation, wherever it may "rank".


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Is his best work from start to finish. Nothing else comes close!
> 
> Refute this assertion.
> 
> :tiphat:


It is by a long shot my favorite piece of music and on January 27 I get to hear it live for the first time. The always good Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra. I expect great things!


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

It is widely held that Beethoven's 3rd was the first big step in the direction of romantic music, but for me (very personally and definitely subjectively, please note!) the 6th is the first truly romantic piece of music. It is my favourite Beethoven symphony, even though I _revere_ the others as well.

But really, just think about the bit where the last movement starts, the very calm and gentle atmosphere... The melody just seems to float there before really kicking off, and the whole thing is just so lovely and comforting. It still makes me go like "aaahhhhh...!" - sorry for the crude presentation but I can't express it any other way - every time I hear it. A wonderful work of art!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Larkenfield said:


> Try Fritz Reiner's 6th with the CSO. He never breaks the mood.


Great recording....Reiner/CSO really nail it.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

There are so many good recordings that I can't pick a favorite: Walter, Blomstedt, Barenboim, Szell, Gardiner, Morris, even Krips and many more. It's easier to find ones I don't like: Karajan (sorry), Boult (dreadful), Kletzki.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Is his best work from start to finish. Nothing else comes close!
> 
> Refute this assertion.
> 
> :tiphat:


Agree 100% it s my favorite Beethoven symphony and his most lyrical.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Is his best work from start to finish. Nothing else comes close!
> 
> Refute this assertion.
> 
> :tiphat:


Perhaps we should argue it is even more? Perhaps it is the greatest symphony ever written or that ever will be written, bar none.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Pugg said:


> No four is most exceptional also.


I'm a big fan of Beethoven's 4th.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Refuting _or_ irrefuting which is the _best_ work by Beethoven is sort of like arguing which is the best mountain. If you're hungry, you'll want a mountain that has food. If you're cold you'll want a mountain that has warmth. If you are satiated and warm but have nothing to do, you just may want a mountain to climb. What is it you want with a work by Beethoven?

Speaking for myself, I've long enjoyed the 6th Symphony. It features fine tunes, and the birds in the trees and the brook and that resplendent thunder storm. Still, I turn more often to the First or the Fifth or the Seventh or the Ninth when I want to hear Beethoven. And I can't dismiss the "Spring" violin sonata or the final handful of quartets, or about two dozen of the piano sonatas or the _Missa Solemnis _or the cello sonatas or ... as less than masterful from start to finish. And some days I prefer one particular mountain over any other, though I don't recall the last time I actually thought about such a thing.

I did once park on a mountain top and listened to a radio broadcast of the Beethoven Seventh on a day when the music seemed exactly right for the occasion. I think that was the first time I truly _heard_ the music, and I suspected that the type of day I was experiencing (there was sunshine, there was a storm) on that mountain was exactly like the one that inspired Beethoven with the initial sparks of that telling work. I've never heard the symphony quite the same way since, but my memory of that day, that mountain, that music remains. That day the Seventh was the best work, from start to finish, and nothing could come close.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

arnerich said:


> I'm a big fan of Beethoven's 4th.


Yup yup yup :lol:


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

It's one of my favorites too, besides 2th, 3th, 7th and 5th.

And I would say definitely the most consistent of his symphonies.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Also, there's no "ugly" theme in the 6th symphony. In every other symphony there are at least some moments that I really don't like. With the sixth it's all prettiness from start to end, even the storm is pleasing to my ears.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Probably the Beethoven symphony I'd take to a desert island.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

For lyricism, the Dvorak Eighth is my Beethoven Sixth. :cheers:


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Music lovers know there are many _Pastoral_ symphonies. I've heard a few, have several in my collection. There are times when the pastoral mood is prime for listening pleasures. But not always. Just as there are times for revisiting Shakespeare's _As You Like It _or _A Midsummer Night's Dream_, while at other times the _Hamlet_ or the _Macbeth_ suit better.

I don't know if there was ever a thread here at Talk Classical devoted to commenting on various _pastoral_ symphonies, but maybe there should be. After all, it seems that quite a few of us enjoy the Beethoven 6th. What other _pastorals_ are out there (whether overtly titled "Pastoral" or simply suggestive of the pastoral), and how do they compare in mood and style to the great number 6? (With all due apologies to maestro Handel of _Messiah_, of course.)

By the way, as I type I'm listening via my Sennheiser headphones to the Seventh Symphony of Alexander Glazunov. Interestingly enough, it too is in the key of F Major!


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

The six was a symphony Beethoven took the extra care of really making a symphony of special lyrical proportions. It wasn't based on any model nor any other piece it may have originally been composed for. I read the 8th was originally intended to be a piano concerto if I am not wrong.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

The pastoral came on over the radio yesterday - I think I probably like this Beet sy better than any of his others. The quality of the melodies is really quite amazing.


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## Jacred (Jan 14, 2017)

stomanek said:


> The pastoral came on over the radio yesterday - I think I probably like this Beet sy better than any of his others. The quality of the melodies is really quite amazing.


Not my personal favourite, but up there. I agree with the good melodies part.


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