# Greece's classical music??



## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

Why Greece seems left out in western classical music? I mean no big composer coming from Greece. It is a rich civilasation with famous achievement in B.C. era arts and why they did not sustain to baroque/classical/romantic era? compare to many eastern country and Italy .

i think this is a bit more historical topic.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

What a great topic!

Greece has produced at least a small handfull of clasical composers.

Perhaps the best-known is Iannis Xenakis (1922-2001). He is an avant-garde, modernist composer whose work I must admit I've never heard, but he is generally the best known.

A composer I like QUITE a bit is another Greek, Manolis Kalomiris (1883-1962). He is a post-romantic, nationalist composer who sounds quite a bit like Khachaturian. He was a master orchestrator who wrote gorgeous, tonal works that are a throwback to the days of Rimsky-Korsakov with their exotic sonorities and rhythms. This composer is a major discovery for me. He has a disc on Naxos that is DEFINITELY worth your time.

Nikolaos Skalkottas (1904-1949) is also well known. He was a devotee of the likes of Schonberg, so, like Xenakis, composed music is a very modernist vein.

Two modernists and a romantic make up a list of who are, perhaps, the BEST known composers from Greece.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm taking notes. The only Greek composer I had ever heard of is Xenakis - or maybe Evangelos Papathanassiou though I hear he scarcely reads or writes notation.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I repeat...try the Naxos Kalomiris disc. As with all Naxos discs, the price is right and the sound is great to boot. Kalomiris is a composer that would have very wide popular appeal if he were better known.


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## msegers (Oct 17, 2008)

*Tapkaara* wrote that he had never heard the music of Xenakis. On YouTube, you can listen to his _Metastasis_ at 



.

Information on Xenakis at -


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

waa,.. never heard these names. will open this youtube reference. 

but here "theory" about the initial question. is it because classical music root in church influence and Greece is dominant pagan (mythology) culture and also the church is orthodox version, which maybe developt their own music.

but again with a place where many great performing arts happen, music should be a big business there.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

To answer the question about the ancient Greeks, After the rise of the Roman Empire Greece was engulfed in Byzantium (founded by Constantine the Great adopting the ancient Greek name of the area where his capital, Constantinople, was errected). The Byzantines were Romans and Greece degenerated into a provincial backwater. In fact one could say that there was no real Greece it ancient times but rather a conglommerate of City States (Athens, Sparta, Thebes etc.) unified only by a common language and Common Gods inherrited from the Ancients. The Byzantine musical scene was quite rich with tens of different scales and tunings involing microtones in use. Unfortunately the Church, where art music often starts, was very strict and this rich musical culture was once again left on the sidelines. It can be heard today in special concerts in Istanbul and in Greece. 
The psalmody from the Orthodox Church which has its roots in Byzantine music, is unmeasured and very limited in range butalso very expressive in performance. Compared to Lutheran music which is the basis of most western music it sounds quite eastern and free. 
Once again history had another fateful blow to deal the area. The Ottoman empire wass to take control of what is recognized as modern Greece and the supression of all artistic persuits led to Greece being a mere spectator in the Rennaisance and Baroque periods. 
It was only after the Greek Revolution of 1821 that the Greek people reunited into a nation with independant identity. The Bavarian king Othon (Otto) was inaugurated as head of state in 1831 and it was he that founded universities and other educational institutions in the then new country. He was alos the first person to bring instruments like clarinets, bassoons, French horns and flutes to Greece form the Bavarian court. 

Form this point the nation began to grow into what is now Modern Greece. The roots of Plato and Socrates are still recognized but the geneological decention is also understood to have been broken. Very few Greeks will try to insist that they are the decendants of Plato. The Turks did so much 'damage' to what survived form previous cultures that essentially the Greeks started over from scratch in 1821. 

There are two Greek composers which the Greeks themselves would have you think are the equivalent of Beethoven and Mozart (which of course they are not) and those are Mikis Theodorakis and Manos Hadjidakis. Theodorakis is now over 80 years old and treated as somthing of a demigod by all. His most famous work was in films (Oscar for 'Zorba the Greek' in the early 60s, Sydney Lumet/Dino Delaurentiis Serpico, Kostas Gavras - 'Z'). Hadjidakis is also famous for film music (Never on a Sunday which won an Oscar for Melina Merkouri). Although Theodorakis writes 'serious' classical music (7 Symphones, 2 piano concertos, and several oratorios) neither he nor Hadjidakis were in the league of Kalomoiris, Xenakis, Yani Christou or Nikos Skalkottas. 

As you can imagine, with this rather poor background in classical music Greece is now running to catch up with the rest of western Europe. After WWII the decision to include Greece in the West and not Soviet controlled east, left the country with a lot of major cultural deficiencies. The formation of orchestras was slow and only recently (1989) was the Greek National Radio Symphony Orchestra formed. In 1991 the Newspaper Mogul Christos Lambrakis built a major new music concert hall (which was designed by Germans) called 'Megaro Muosikis' and instated a small chamber orchestra (Kamerata) as resident there. Commissions and diverse projects have been undertaken there which include the staging of Nixon in China by John Adams. The Megaro has been expanded to include a modern opera house and conference centre. THere are plans to construct another new Opera house in Faliro on the sea front in the near future and talk of another concert hall and possibly another new orchestra using funds form the Onasis legacy. Every four years there is a competition for composers held by the Orchestra of Colours (founded by Manos Hadjidakis) and there is encouragement for young composers in the national music schools. 

It is one of the Greek musical pastimes to muse upon what might have happened had the Rennaisence taken place there and not in Italy.

Some modern Greek composers about which you might be interested in finding out more are

Nestor Taylor,
Theodore Antoniou,
George Koumendakis,
Babis Kanas,
Christos Hadji

I hope this answers some of your qestions about Greek classical music.
FC


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

jurianbai said:


> but here "theory" about the initial question. is it because classical music root in church influence and Greece is dominant pagan (mythology) culture and also the church is orthodox version, which maybe developt their own music.
> 
> but again with a place where many great performing arts happen, music should be a big business there.


Right on all accounts.

Don't forget, however that the Rennaisence was an attempt to revive some of the ancient Greek ideals about art.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

thanks post-minimalist for the answer right from Athens.

the richness of these folk tune looks preserve in western music as the mode term (ionian,dorian,phrygian,lydian,mixo-lydian,aeonian.locrian) are sound greek.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Indeed the names are from districts of Greece. The modern use of them for the modes are however an Italian invention and have nothing to do with the districts themselves.
FC


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## msegers (Oct 17, 2008)

Thank you,* post-minimalist*, for your fascinating essay (so much more than just a post) on music in Greece. Deep bows.


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## msegers (Oct 17, 2008)

I've just started a thread about the music of ancient Greece, at least as it is reconstructed today:
http://www.talkclassical.com/4925-musique-de-la-gr.html


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Wow, Post-Minimalist, you know your stuff. And on such an "obscure" subject...I am indeed impressed.

The truth is, ALL countries produce classical composer, but it seems if they don't come from the US, Britain, Russia, Germany, etc...they can get all too easily lost in the fray. Hmmm...sounds like a good topic for a new thread...


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Thanks for all the accolades but I happen to live in Greece and I played for 7 years in the Kamerata and 3 in the Radio Symphony Orchestra so I have a kind of heads start.
FC


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Post-Minimalist, what are your thoughts on Kalomiris?


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Manolis Kalomoiris was one of the most gifted composers of Greece. His settings of folk songs are quite sublime incorporating traditional harmonies. His orchestral works are romantic nationalism, like a Greek Sibelius!?! His orchestration is somewhat heavy and sliightly clumsy but in general his works rich in ideas and harmonic variety drawing on Greek traditional music occasionally for colour. His double bass concerto is one of the hardest in the repertoire. I have added my own tiny contribution to Kalomoiris's music by orchestrating 3 of the folk songs for string orchestra. These were played in Pythagorio (the village on Samos where Pythagoras was born) on the first anniversary of the 9/11 attack. It was part of a yearly Kalomoiris Festival there.

Sorry if I spell him Kalomoiris with 'oi'. It's a Greek thing. 'Καλομοιρης' being the original spelling.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

KaloOIris...I will make a not of that.

Yes, I've read other say that his orchestration is "heavy" and I suppose it is. But that is the appeal for me. It's like every chord is a monolith in hard granite. I like that!

I have a handful of Kalomoiris CDs, but they are not easy to come by here in the states. KNow of any outlest in Greece where I can order them? I'd LOVE to hear this double bass concerto.

And I'd jump at the chance to here your version of his folk songs...!


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

You might like this site which is the official Kalomoiris home page.

http://www.kalomiris.gr/

I also made a big mistake about the bass Concerto I was thinking of Skalkottas!

If you like Kalomoiris then you should also have a listen to Nikos Skalkottas, especially his 'Greek Dances'. There are quite a few but they have been recorded on BIS by Nikos Christodoulou I think with the BBC Symphony Orchestra. 
FC


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Upping,
I spent last year in thessaloniki and had the oportunity to hear several Greek composers, Kalomoiris I enjoyed a little, but Skalkottas I thought it was far and above everyone else. His music is ecletic, extremely well orchestrated, full of rhytimic verve and with quite a catchy melody, even in the more "schoenbergian" works. I like almost everything I heard: the piano concertos, the concerto for two violins, the MAiden Death and, obviously, the greek Dances which made me aquainted to him in thes/nik. He is one of the most underrated composers of the 20C, my countryman Villa-Lobos isn't half as talented as him, but has much more recordings and playing time in concert halls and radios, perhapts becauses Skalkottas music is more difficult.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Every place has produced classical composers, I don't really think it's about cultural boundaries that much. And Greece has a relatively small population too. And there's probably not as big a recording industry there as much bigger places. So I don't think there is really much of an issue here.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

starry said:


> Every place has produced classical composers, I don't really think it's about cultural boundaries that much. And Greece has a relatively small population too. And there's probably not as big a recording industry there as much bigger places. So I don't think there is really much of an issue here.


Actually what made Greece apart from the western music is the Orthodox church music, which forbids and polyphony, this made the Byzantine musical tradition apart from the French and Italian lines, what they usually called "Frankish". The same happened to Russia, some would say, yes it did, but Russia had later an aristocracy heavily influenced by western Europaean tastes and several composers moved to Russia and created there a native musical tradition, Greece had no aristocracy, and after the independence the court was foreign and had very few cultural ties with the population.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Actually what made Greece apart from the western music is the Orthodox church music, which forbids and polyphony, this made the Byzantine musical tradition apart from the French and Italian lines, what they usually called "Frankish". The same happened to Russia, some would say, yes it did, but Russia had later an aristocracy heavily influenced by western Europaean tastes and several composers moved to Russia and created there a native musical tradition, Greece had no aristocracy, and after the independence the court was foreign and had very few cultural ties with the population.


I was really talking about modern classical music, there may well have been some historical circumstances in the past that may have meant some influences didn't reach Greece going further back. However there definitely have been some modern Greek classical composers. And it still is a relatively small country compared to places like France or Italy.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Wow, I went away for 3 weeks and this topic comes up!


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> Wow, I went away for 3 weeks and this topic comes up!


If you stayed gone for 6 weeks we probably would end up talking about Egyptian and Turkish composers next.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> If you stayed gone for 6 weeks we probably would end up talking about Egyptian and Turkish composers next.


Oh, no. We would have easily gotten to central Asia.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> If you stayed gone for 6 weeks we probably would end up talking about Egyptian and Turkish composers next.


Or talking about American composers...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Or talking about American composers...


There you go!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned *Mikis Theodorakis*, composer of film music for _Zorba the Greek _(the famous _Syrtaki_ dance). He is also a noted composer of more serious music, but I don't know that much about him. Haven't heard anything other than the above work...


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Andre said:


> I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned *Mikis Theodorakis*, composer of film music for _Zorba the Greek _(the famous _Syrtaki_ dance). He is also a noted composer of more serious music, but I don't know that much about him. Haven't heard anything other than the above work...


Theodorakis is adored in Greece, but his not as good as Skalkottas or Kalomiris. His music is too square and based too much in "easy" tunes.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Theodorakis is adored in Greece, but his not as good as Skalkottas or Kalomiris. His music is too square and based too much in "easy" tunes.


 Much like Mozart's music is too square and "easy."


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Much like Mozart's music is too square and "easy."


Only someone who doesn't have the slightest idea of the aesthetic of the Classical era can something like that.  And it is incredibly off-topic. What made Mozart closest to Greece was his middle name Θεόφιλος latinezed to Amadeus...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Only someone who doesn't have the slightest idea of the aesthetic of the Classical era can something like that.  And it is incredibly off-topic. What made Mozart closest to Greece was his middle name Θεόφιλος latinezed to Amadeus...


Mozart wrote one good piece of good music: "Requiem," the rest of it is lightweight rubbish.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Mozart wrote one good piece of good music: "Requiem," the rest of it is lightweight rubbish.


Off-topic, if you want to be trash Mozart, start a topic to this. Mozart isn't anymore Greek than you.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Off-topic, if you want to be trash Mozart, start a topic to this. Mozart isn't anymore Greek than you.


Yeah, I know, but I love bashing Mozart whenever I can.

Anyway, who's a good Greek composer you could recommend that wrote in a Romantic style. I'm asking you since you seem to know a good bit about Greece's classical history.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Yeah, I know, but I love bashing Mozart whenever I can.
> 
> Anyway, who's a good Greek composer you could recommend that wrote in a Romantic style. I'm asking you since you seem to know a good bit about Greece's classical history.


Kalomiris should be your choice, he is a good more "romantic" in style. But you might like Skalkottas tonal works, the Greek Dances are a good beggining.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Kalomiris should be your choice, he is a good more "romantic" in style. But you might like Skalkottas tonal works, the Greek Dances are a good beggining.


Well thanks...I shall look into these two composers.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

This Naxos recording is a good starter:









The third symphony is a winner.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

bdelykleon said:


> This Naxos recording is a good starter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love, love, love that recording. Kalomiris (or Kalomoiris, as I guess he should really be called) it a great composer. A little bit of Khachaturian, a little Rimsky-Korsakov. Carried a lash romanticism into the 20th century.

I really like the Triptyche on that disc.

I have also been able to track down two recordings of the 1st symphony which is also spectacularly good stuff.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I love, love, love that recording. Kalomiris (or Kalomoiris, as I guess he should really be called) it a great composer. A little bit of Khachaturian, a little Rimsky-Korsakov. Carried a lash romanticism into the 20th century.
> 
> I really like the Triptyche on that disc.
> 
> I have also been able to track down two recordings of the 1st symphony which is also spectacularly good stuff.


Do you know Magiobotana or the Piano concerto? It is great music as well. His other symphonies and operas I don't know (but Lyra has a recording of one opera and the second symphony www.lyra.gr).

About the name, Kalomiris is like we pronounce, Kalomoiris is the transliteration of Καλομοίρης, I don't know if this is a good way to write because it leads to a wrong pronounciation, Greek orthography is a mess, and even professors are uneasy with it.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

First of all, I'll start with the case of Mikis Theodorakis. He is mostly known for his songs of resistance and his songwriting in general. It's true, he's written several "serious" works, symphonic and chamber music, but he is in a totally other league than Kalomiris or Skalkotas and he can't be compared with either of them, artistically and technically. 

Now, when it comes to Greek composers in general, I admit that it was Kalomiris, along with Petridis, Karrer, Labelet etc etc, that lead Greece into the 20th century, but the first composer that could really stand beside the european tradition in both ideas and technique, was definately Nikos Skalkotas who died in 1949. After Skalkotas there are 2 great names, Yiannis Xenakis and Yiannis Christou.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I remember reading somewhere that Xenakis had a Romanian background. Is this true?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

How about Yanni? (joke)...


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

The greatest thing about Yanni is that he looks like those Greeks from the epanastasi (independence war), like Karaiskakis and Rigas... Well, that's all I have to say about him...


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