# Do Most Lovers of Classical Music Not Like Opera?



## Barelytenor

I notice that it seems like whenver I look at the main Forum page, there are consistently 3-4 times as many members in the Classical Music Discussion threads as in the Opera forum. I'd like to hear from many members speaking up as to whether they do or do not like opera? When you think of "classical music," do you usually exclude opera from that?

For me, I would say that it was opera that drew me into classical music (and here I mean, "classical music without singing") rather than the other way around -- but perhaps my experience is atypical

How about you?

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## schigolch

I think you will find all kind of possibilities here.

If you are interested in the numbers, you can open a poll in the general forum, or convince Artmusic to open it for you.

Personally, I love opera (is my favorite genre), but also instrumental music, or indeed also vocal music outside of opera.


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## hpowders

I would say that the original post is a good assumption to make.

I see how basically one group of people on TC (the same posting names) hang around the opera threads, rarely posting on the mainstream classical threads and vice versa.

It seems TC is divided into two segregated (by choice) camps: classical music lovers vs. opera lovers.

The two camps should get together for tea and scones once in a while.


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## Manxfeeder

I've tried to get into opera. I had a friend who said if you just take six months exploring it, you'll be hooked. I spend two years with the specific intent of getting into it, and as a result, I have a stack of dust-covered opera recordings. 

There are a few that I do like and actually listen to, but as a rule, there's something about that genre that doesn't click with me. Maybe it's having to spend the length of the opera with my head buried in a libretto cross-referencing the text with the English version or else staring at subtitles on a screen. It's too much work. 

I will listen to sacred music and oratorios, because the subject matter means something to me. But opera plots don't generally speak to me in a way that would make the effort involved worth my time. 

Of course, I always hold out the hope that one day I'll see the light.


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## SixFootScowl

As a teen I listened mostly to rock music. I was exposed to classical to some degree too. Later I wanted to pursue classical but did not have the patience for classical instrumental music, so I thought to attend operas as there would be music, singing and acting, and a story. That way I felt I would not get bored. Then I was away from most any music for many years. I came back to classical in the instrumental and religious choral works, but Beethoven's Fidelio was the gateway for me into opera. Once I got a DVD of it, I was hooked. That was about three years ago and now I have about 90 opera DVDs and probably 70 or more opera on CD. I spend most of my time listening to opera, with some excursions into instrumental, mainly symphony, and oratorio, mainly Messiah.


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## Lenny

Manxfeeder said:


> I've tried to get into opera. I had a friend who said if you just take six months exploring it, you'll be hooked. I spend two years with the specific intent of getting into it, and as a result, I have a stack of dust-covered opera recordings.
> 
> There are a few that I do like and actually listen to, but as a rule, there's something about that genre that doesn't click with me. Maybe it's having to spend the length of the opera with my head buried in a libretto cross-referencing the text with the English version or else staring at subtitles on a screen. It's too much work.
> 
> I will listen to sacred music and oratorios, because the subject matter means something to me. But opera plots don't generally speak to me in a way that would make the effort involved worth my time.
> 
> Of course, I always hold out the hope that one day I'll see the light.


Pretty much what I also happen to think. There is something fundamental in this, because I've always though human voice just as an instrument, nothing more, nothing less. I've never really listened to the words in songs, not even in my own language! So opera.... of course can be fine music, but if you cut the words and the whole story out of it, what's left?

Some vocal music, like masses I really like, but again.. I don't really care what that latin chanting really means. Well I kinda know, not exactly, but still. It just sounds wonderful (Bruckner's Te Deum just started to play in my head while typing this..)


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## SixFootScowl

It is useful to get really familiar with an opera by watching on DVD. I have 12 DVD performances of Barber of Seville (4 still to be watched) and am so familiar with that opera, and the parts are so distinct, that when I listen to one of my 13 sets on CD I pretty much have the scene in my head and know exactly where I am in it. It produces immense enjoyment that way, but I do not have that kind of a handle on most of my opera recordings.


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## Bettina

Florestan said:


> It is useful to get really familiar with an opera by watching on DVD. I have 12 DVD performances of Barber of Seville (4 still to be watched) and am so familiar with that opera, and the parts are so distinct, that when I listen to one of my 13 sets on CD I pretty much have the scene in my head and know exactly where I am in it. It produces immense enjoyment that way, but I do not have that kind of a handle on most of my opera recordings.


I feel the same way. I love seeing operas, both on DVD and by attending live performances. Listening to opera on CD is not nearly as enjoyable as watching it, unless I've seen the opera many times and can visualize the onstage action.


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## Gordontrek

First of all, I'm not sure that classical music and opera are two different things. The latter is part of the former, is it not?
While I definitely appreciate opera and find many wonderful things in it, I can't really get into it. I find it rather obnoxious to listen to and can't help but feel a bit snobbish when I see one. I've had the pleasure of attending two world-class opera productions- I saw La Boheme and A Streetcar Named Desire at the Chicago Lyric Opera (the Streetcar production featured Renee Fleming as Blanche!) and I enjoyed them, but I felt like it wasn't my cup of tea. I like watching opera on television even less. Cameras and microphones do zero justice to the power and expressiveness of a singer's voice live in the flesh, which is to me the primary reason I would actually attend an opera.


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## superhorn

I'm not sure about this. Yes, there are some people who love orchestral and chamber music etc, but who don't like opera , but I'm not sure what percentage . But on the whole, classical music fans who aren't really into opera usually like at least several ones . 
I enjoy all genres of classical music, period . Of course, I'm very big on opera , but my tastes are Catholic, or maybe Protestant LOL !


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## pcnog11

I do not think classical lovers and opera lovers are 2 mutually exclusive groups. In fact the human voice could be addictive, especially Sopranos and Baritones. I think watching opera are more enjoyable than just listening to it. For me, opera is a subset of classical music with a story line, acting and character development etc. The challenge to me is that my default is listening rather than watching at home. If you give me a choice between a Mozart PC or a Mozart opera, I would pick the Mozart PC to listen. 

However, for those opera lovers, can you identify the score on my profile picture?


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## millionrainbows

Opera is dominated by plot and dialogue. The music is subservient to that. That's why I'm not into it.


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## Becca

_There are two groups of people in the world, those who divide everything into two groups and those who don't._

The problem is that there is no absolute line between 'classical' and opera with a lot of works that sit in the hazy middle ground between them, the most obvious being orchestral excerpts from operas that are often performed on their own. There are some Berlioz works which usually are done in the concert hall but have also been staged (e.g. Damnation of Faust). There is Verdi's Requiem which is often considered to be his best opera! And then how about various cantatas and oratorios?


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## Bulldog

Gordontrek said:


> First of all, I'm not sure that classical music and opera are two different things.


I have no doubt that opera is classical music. Concerning my own listening habits, I do listen to quite a lot of operas. However, I do it for the music. I'm not going to miss out on some of the most wonderful music around just because it has an opera umbrella hovering over it.


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## Sloe

What I understand the classical music discussion forum is for all genres. However I notice that it is very little opera that is discussed there.


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## SiegendesLicht

My own love of classical music started with opera. I learned to appreciate music plus voice plus storyline before I learned to love "pure" music. My journey has been somewhat in the opposite direction from that of Florestan: from opera to instrumental music to other vocal music, and most of my very recent listening has been both opera and non-operatic vocal works. So I am both a classical music lover AND an opera lover.


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## Strange Magic

I only care for Puccini. I have not delved deeply into why this is so, but perhaps opera lovers far more knowledgeable than I (which will be a really big number) can explain why this might be. I do certainly love the big Puccini arias. The _morbidezza_ perhaps?


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## Sloe

Strange Magic said:


> I do certainly love the big Puccini arias. The _morbidezza_ perhaps?


Arias are nice but I don´t think they are what essentially what makes an opera good but what is in between. Lots of operas have no distinguishable arias at all but are good because they have a great flow.


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## Barelytenor

Gordontrek said:


> First of all, I'm not sure that classical music and opera are two different things. The latter is part of the former, is it not?
> While I definitely appreciate opera and find many wonderful things in it, I can't really get into it. I find it rather obnoxious to listen to and can't help but feel a bit snobbish when I see one. I've had the pleasure of attending two world-class opera productions- I saw La Boheme and A Streetcar Named Desire at the Chicago Lyric Opera (the Streetcar production featured Renee Fleming as Blanche!) and I enjoyed them, but I felt like it wasn't my cup of tea. I like watching opera on television even less. Cameras and microphones do zero justice to the power and expressiveness of a singer's voice live in the flesh, which is to me the primary reason I would actually attend an opera.


Of course one is a subset of the other, I was merely wondering how many people prefer largely/exclusively instrumental works to those with sung music in addition to instrumental music (and of course I know there is unaccompanied vocal music as well).

It does seem like there is a pretty clear divide among some here, as well as considerable numbers of people who like opera as well as instrumental/orchestral music without singing.

For me my "discovery" of classical music, as I said, came first through (mostly) opera, as well as another route of which I will write perhaps tomorrow. It was none other than Joan Sutherland (before she was Dame Joan) and the Art of the Prima Donna (the original set, in which she cracks a high F on the Queen of the Night aria; but the most memorable then and now was "Let the Bright Seraphim") that made me think, "Wow! This woman sings like a musical instrument--a very large and powerful one. I wonder if I could sing in some manner like that?" I had joined the Columbia Record Club, back when LPs were just coming into vogue. I remember my first six like they were yesterday: Ravel's Bolero, Pavane pour une Infante Defunte, Ibert's España; Jan Peerce singing Viennese operetta songs in translation; Joanie; the Mormon Tabernacle Choir; and a Handel Messiah greatest hits LP. I thought I had died and gone to Heaven. (I note that there was no "pure" non-programmatic instrumental classical music in that first group; that would come later.)

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George

I've enjoyed your comments, please continue them!

Kind regards,

George


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

millionrainbows said:


> Opera is dominated by plot and dialogue. The music is subservient to that. That's why I'm not into it.


Exactly what I would have said.

I do like parts of operas like overtures and some arias but overall operas bore me and the visuals and non-musical plots do nothing for me.

(Too bad Wagner wrote so much opera instead of focusing his musical talent on symphonies)


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## Sloe

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Exactly what I would have said.
> 
> I do like parts of operas like overtures and some arias but overall operas bore me and the visuals and non-musical plots do nothing for me.


I think plot music and visuals enhances each other and gives it overall a bigger impression.


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## SiegendesLicht

Sloe said:


> Lots of operas have no distinguishable arias at all but are good because they have a great flow.


Yes, and I like those better.


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## Triplets

Lenny said:


> Pretty much what I also happen to think. There is something fundamental in this, because I've always though human voice just as an instrument, nothing more, nothing less. I've never really listened to the words in songs, not even in my own language! So opera.... of course can be fine music, but if you cut the words and the whole story out of it, what's left?
> 
> Some vocal music, like masses I really like, but again.. I don't really care what that latin chanting really means. Well I kinda know, not exactly, but still. It just sounds wonderful (Bruckner's Te Deum just started to play in my head while typing this..)


Agree totally. I've tried several times to embrace Opera. Fwiw I prefer Mozart and bel canto to verisimo but really don't spend much effort these days


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Sloe said:


> I think plot music and visuals enhances each other and gives it overall a bigger impression.


But plot and visuals are not music. I like my music abstract and free from non-musical dependencies.


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## trazom

I love both. I was intimidated of opera as a genre at first; but, already knowing and loving much of Mozart's instrumental and sacred music, and having read Mozart's own esteem of opera in his letters, I knew I'd be depriving myself of hours of some of his best music if I didn't at least try to listen to some of them.



pcnog11 said:


> I do not think classical lovers and opera lovers are 2 mutually exclusive groups. In fact the human voice could be addictive, especially Sopranos and Baritones. I think watching opera are more enjoyable than just listening to it. For me, opera is a subset of classical music with a story line, acting and character development etc. The challenge to me is that my default is listening rather than watching at home. If you give me a choice between a Mozart PC or a Mozart opera, I would pick the Mozart PC to listen.
> 
> *However, for those opera lovers, can you identify the score on my profile picture?*


I can barely see it, but the run of semiquavers looks a lot like the one from "O Zittre Nicht" from The Magic Flute. Actually, now that I've taken a closer look, that has to be it.


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## starthrower

Opera is abstract for me because I don't understand the language or care about the plot. And I don't watch DVDs. I listen on CD only.


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## josecamoessilva

I like the music of some Opera, and sometimes even take in a performance; what bothers me about Opera are some of the people who "like Opera" but in the back of their minds they would much rather Opera didn't have the music part (the attitude comes across quite clearly when you talk to them and realize they're interested in everything but the music).

There are certainly a lot of people who also pretend to like classical music for social reasons, but I find that those are mostly social poseurs, while the Opera people who don't like the music are genuinely interested in the theatre and the whole production part, just the music that's not their thing.

The Opera itself, the music, is not at fault for the people it attracts, but this may explain partially why the people who like Opera in music forums tend to be set aside, even when these are the people within the Opera community who DO LIKE THE MUSIC. (Capitals because I don't want to be misunderstood as saying the Opera people don't like music; it's some of them that don't, and those are unlikely to hang out in a forum about music.)

By coincidence, my non-assigned-number ringtone is the second half of Piangeró la sorte mia from Handel's Giulio Cesare in Egitto. All assigned ringtones and texttones are chamber or orchestral pieces, though, except one that's a jet engine starting sound. 

Cheers,
JCS


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## KenOC

josecamoessilva said:


> I like the music of some Opera, and sometimes even take in a performance; what bothers me about Opera are some of the people who "like Opera" but in the back of their minds they would much rather Opera didn't have the music part (the attitude comes across quite clearly when you talk to them and realize they're interested in everything but the music).


Not just here! Years ago, when I was studying Chinese, my teacher (a middle-aged Chinese lady from Beijing) said that in China you could always tell someone was unsophisticated when they talked about "listening to" opera. A true opera buff would always talk about "watching" opera.


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## Richard8655

I want to like opera, I really do. It almost feels like an obligation if you love classical music (of which its a subset). It's the most extreme form of program music. But unlike the Pastoral Symphony (for example), my imagination is not allowed to run free. It must follow some of the most inane, silly, trivial, and self-serving plot lines imaginable. This is the difficulty I have with it.


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## Sloe

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> But plot and visuals are not music.


I did not say it was.
I just said how it can work for me.


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## Sloe

Richard8655 said:


> I want to like opera, I really do. It almost feels like an obligation if you love classical music (of which its a subset). It's the most extreme form of program music. But unlike the Pastoral Symphony (for example), my imagination is not allowed to run free. It must follow some of the most inane, silly, trivial, and self-serving plot lines imaginable. This is the difficulty I have with it.


Opera directors have no problem letting their imagination run free. There was for an example a production of The Abduction from the Seraglio that ended with a massacre.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Sloe said:


> I did not say it was.
> I just said how it can work for me.


Oh, I did not mean to imply that your comment suggested otherwise. I was stating why these elements are unimportant to me.


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## Retrograde Inversion

Given that Mozart, Wagner and R.Strauss are all a part of the German symphonic tradition, I can't help wondering if the subtext here is more specifically about Italian opera.


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## Woodduck

I both love and hate opera, depending on the quality of the singing. Many people dislike "operatic" singing, by which they generally mean insensitive bellowing and shrieking loaded down with vibrato that can even make the pitch of the sung note indecipherable. I'm completely sympathetic to this. Truly great singing is relatively uncommon, but when you do hear it, it can go the heart like no other form of music-making.


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## Pugg

Richard8655 said:


> I want to like opera, I really do. It almost feels like an obligation if you love classical music (of which its a subset). It's the most extreme form of program music. But unlike the Pastoral Symphony (for example), my imagination is not allowed to run free. It must follow some of the most inane, silly, trivial, and self-serving plot lines imaginable. This is the difficulty I have with it.


One thing for sure, nobody is forcing you to opera, so if you feel better with Beethoven, it's your life.


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## helenora

in my opinion this definitely not true at all. Many CM lovers do like opera very much, some love only opera, other like other genres too, but most often the beginning of love for CM begins with opera, because it´s synthetic genre , less abstract than let´s say absolute music. Well, the answer is what to hate in opera? after lots of thinking about all that, not just about opera but how people react on something I do realize that if a person has feeling of hate or anger in his life then it will project on many things around them including music - they would hate this or that genre, and the opposite is true as well - the more contentment there is in life the more it will project on other stuff around, at least will not generate hate.


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## R3PL4Y

My biggest difficulty with opera has always been that I only speak english


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## Bettina

R3PL4Y said:


> My biggest difficulty with opera has always been that I only speak english


There are some very good operas in English. Have you tried Benjamin Britten's operas? Aaron Copland's _The Tender Land_ is also worth checking out.


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## Lenny

helenora said:


> in my opinion this definitely not true at all. Many CM lovers do like opera very much, some love only opera, other like other genres too, but most often the beginning of love for CM begins with opera, because it´s synthetic genre , less abstract than let´s say absolute music. Well, the answer is what to hate in opera? after lots of thinking about all that, not just about opera but how people react on something I do realize that if a person has feeling of hate or anger in his life then it will project on many things around them including music - they would hate this or that genre, and the opposite is true as well - the more contentment there is in life the more it will project on other stuff around, at least will not generate hate.


I dare to say not quite many of us who don't get opera really hates any of it. We are just jealous 

OTOH there is so much instrumental and absolute music to explore.. so personally I don't see my disinterest in opera any problem. For sure I don't run out of music in my lifetime!


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## Sloe

R3PL4Y said:


> My biggest difficulty with opera has always been that I only speak english


There are translations of librettos you can read, subtitles, surtitles and translated operas.


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## helenora

Lenny said:


> I dare to say not quite many of us who don't get opera really hates any of it. We are just jealous
> 
> OTOH there is so much instrumental and absolute music to explore.. so personally I don't see my disinterest in opera any problem. For sure I don't run out of music in my lifetime!


quite true, I don't think many people really detest it, it's just as you said a matter of disinterest.
I think when it's a first encounter with CM and during childhood then sure it will impress enormously and it's such a fun and when people discover CM in a more mature age then perhaps it could be differently and more abstract things would impress more.


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## Bradius

I love all kinds of classical music. Including vocal: Lieder, art songs, choral, oratorios, masses, cantatas....
But I just don't like opera. I find it irritating. I can do Wagner's Ring once in a while, and a bit of Baroque opera. But I really don't like opera.


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## violadude

I'm a fan of opera, but I'm not an "opera fan". As in, I listen to opera for the same reasons I listen to instrumental classical or lieder or choral works but I don't have a list of favorite diva sopranos, or top 5 favorite productions of such and such. I don't really pay much attention to the non-musical aspect of opera, save for the libretto of course, so I know what's going on.


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## Pugg

R3PL4Y said:


> My biggest difficulty with opera has always been that I only speak english


Most opera's librettos comes with English/ French/ German translation.
Spare one minute for those who are not familiar with those languages at all.


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## jenspen

I remember really enjoying some live opera performances when I was a student and for a few years after that. Operas and symphonies were the first *professional *performances of classical music I experienced. There were some thrilling arias and choruses but all too frequently singers indulged in (Woodduck's words) "shrieking loaded down with vibrato that can even make the pitch of the sung note indecipherable" which particularly made duets, quartets, opera choruses sound ugly to the ear of an amateur ensemble singer like myself.

I've heard some lovely performances on DVD but I lack the attention span to attend to most operas and the empathy to care about the characters. Also, I get the most out of music when I try to "see" its patterns and colours - opera is clearly wasted on somebody who is dead set on listening to music, even live performances, with their eyes closed.

My favourite genres of classical music these days are chamber music of all varieties, Lieder and choral. I moved recently and didn't bring any of my opera DVDs or CDs with me.


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## Barelytenor

Bradius said:


> I love all kinds of classical music. Including vocal: Lieder, art songs, choral, oratorios, masses, cantatas....
> But I just don't like opera. I find it irritating. I can do Wagner's Ring once in a while, and a bit of Baroque opera. But I really don't like opera.


This is interesting. What specifically about it do you find irritating that the other forms of vocal music you cite above lack?

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## EdwardBast

For me, instrumental music and opera are unrelated phenomena: music versus musical theater. There is no opera I would bother listening to as music, although there are excerpts and suites I enjoy. Without the dramatic and scenic elements and full comprehension of the text and situations, there would be no point in it — like listening to the soundtrack of a movie without the movie. I can't stand "numbers operas;" if it isn't good drama, the music only rarely will save it for me. There are a number of operas I enjoy a lot, but 98% of my listening is instrumental music or songs.


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## PlaySalieri

I got into opera quickly after discovering the concertos of Mozart at the age of 25. I think it was a highlights CD disc of nozze di figaro (in German) that opened up that world for me. My greatest love is in fact singing and in particular Mozart sopranos - I find more variety and riches in alternative opera performances than, say, different readings of great symphonies. I dont visit the opera section much because it is dominated by can belto and wagner so I tend to lurk of this section and make snide comments about anyone who says anything against Mozart.


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## Scopitone

Pugg said:


> nobody is forcing you to opera.


I know what you meant. But my mind read this as a verb.

"I have to opera today."
"I am learning to opera."
"Let's go opera tonight."

I like it! Maybe it'll catch on. Hey, it worked for "golf".


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## SixFootScowl

R3PL4Y said:


> My biggest difficulty with opera has always been that I only speak english


I always thought knowing the language would be great, but when I listen to my sung-in-English versions of operas I often still can't pick up what they are saying. Again, the best approach is to watch a DVD with subtitles. Opera was not meant to be only listened to so it would be harder to get into on audio disk than DVD.


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## hpowders

Bettina said:


> There are some very good operas in English. Have you tried Benjamin Britten's operas? Aaron Copland's _The Tender Land_ is also worth checking out.


A fine idea "on paper" but the sad reality is in most cases, they sing with such poor diction, that their English becomes "irrelevant" to the listener.

They would do well to study Frank Sinatra recordings.


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## hpowders

I once took a date to hear/see some Verdi at the Sarasota Opera and after the performance I asked her what she thought and she told me she would have liked it much more if they could have eliminated the singing. I kid you not.

No lobster dinner for her after that!!


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## Barelytenor

^ :lol:

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## Myriadi

Most people I've ever met who were interested in Classical music were _either_ mostly interested in instrumental genres _or_ mostly interested in opera. The statistics from the first post of the thread weren't a surprise to me at all. But after reading the replies here, I suppose this is just coincidence? It may also have to do with the fact that personally, I'm completely indifferent to opera, so I probably gravitate towards people with a similar attitude.

And come to think of it, Mozart is the only exception to the "rule" above - I've known quite a few people who regularly listened to Don Giovanni, the Magic Flute, and so on, but rarely ever listened to any other operas - mostly concentrating on instrumental music of all kinds, and maybe a bunch of Bach cantatas.


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## Manxfeeder

hpowders said:


> A fine idea "on paper" but the sad reality is in most cases, they sing with such poor diction, that their English becomes "irrelevant" to the listener.


I have also had a problem with English-language operas. I remember watching Barber's Vanessa and thinking, "Wow, I understand the words, and I still don't like it."

I have noticed that I like hearing French operas. I can listen to Debussy's Pelleas and Roussel's Padmavati and not care much about what they're saying; I just like the way the words sound.


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## Manxfeeder

Myriadi said:


> And come to think of it, Mozart is the only exception to the "rule" above - I've known quite a few people who regularly listened to Don Giovanni, the Magic Flute, and so on, but rarely ever listened to any other operas .


That would be me also. It speaks of the greatness of Mozart that he can get non-opera lovers to listen in.

And on reflection, I seem to like the more weird ones, like Wozzeck, Moses und Aron, and Die Ferne Klang.


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## PlaySalieri

Florestan said:


> I always thought knowing the language would be great, but when I listen to my sung-in-English versions of operas I often still can't pick up what they are saying. Again, the best approach is to watch a DVD with subtitles. Opera was not meant to be only listened to so it would be harder to get into on audio disk than DVD.


I fell in love with the music of Mozart's operas before I really started to appreciate the full extent of the plot, characters etc. Understanding the language is not of much use if the music doesnt do it for you.
I dont like Mozart in english. Sounds silly. Quite banal lyrics sound sublime in Italian - but in English just sound banal.


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## Guest

I prefer instrumental music. WIth that said, I can tolerate Strauss' _Elektra_ and _Salome_, and Reimann's _Lear_, plus a little Wagner. I'd still rather hear orchestral excerpts/suites, though.


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## senza sordino

I prefer instrumental music. Once every few months I'll listen to some opera arias of Puccini or Verdi. Part of my preference for instrumental music over opera is that I only speak English. And I'm an instrumentalist myself. Even in my rock and roll days of my youth I'd dream of being a guitar soloist and I never focussed on the lyrics, even though I did understand the words. 

I used to go to see the opera. Our city hosts about four a year and I'd see go to see these. I stopped going when I realized I'm spending money on a genre I'm just not that into. 

I prefer instrumental music. I own no CDs of a complete opera. I own two "best of opera" CDs.


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## Chronochromie

Primarily what I care about in opera or music with lyrics in general is the music. I can't agree that opera and instrumental music are unrelated phenomena, many people do listen to "the film soundtrack without the film", nothing wrong with that either, it's judging the strength of the music itself, and in operas like those of Rameau, Strauss or Mussorgsky that's usually all I'm paying attention to, and as in my favorite operas the music is good enough on its own I often just listen to recordings.

I can speak Italian so I can understand what's going in Mozart, Verdi, Monteverdi even if I'm not really paying attention to what they're saying. But for French, German, Russian, etc. I don't always read a synopsis or watch a production first unless I really feel like it or it's a long opera and it's my first time with it.


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## hpowders

Scopitone said:


> I know what you meant. But my mind read this as a verb.
> 
> "I have to opera today."
> "I am learning to opera."
> "Let's go opera tonight."
> 
> I like it! Maybe it'll catch on. Hey, it worked for "golf".


A fine retort!!

"Let's Go Opera Tonight" sounds like a nice lyric for some swing, like "Come Fly With Me".

Too bad Sinatra's dead.


----------



## Sloe

KenOC said:


> Not just here! Years ago, when I was studying Chinese, my teacher (a middle-aged Chinese lady from Beijing) said that in China you could always tell someone was unsophisticated when they talked about "listening to" opera. A true opera buff would always talk about "watching" opera.


What if it is in form of an audio recording?


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## R3PL4Y

Does anybody here have a good online source of side by side librettos with the english and the original language? I have found these for the Wagner operas and some Verdi ones, but I haven't been able to find them for many other composers like Strauss or Puccini


----------



## Antiquarian

I don't make a distinction between orchestral music, opera, or chamber/ solo works. I find them all enjoyable. As for opera receiving less love here on TC than other forms, I think it all boils down to familiarity. I grew up listening to opera, so the learning curve progressed at about the same rate as orchestral. Not everyone in the world has, and in a way I can see it being a bit more impenetrable for the neophyte. A more interesting observation is the relative lack of love for ballet music. Perhaps because outside of visuals (the dancers, the stage, ect.) ballet resembles the rest of orchestral music, and is lumped in with it. I think even if a classical music lover is averse to listening to opera, they may still enjoy overtures.


----------



## Pugg

R3PL4Y said:


> Does anybody here have a good online source of side by side librettos with the english and the original language? I have found these for the Wagner operas and some Verdi ones, but I haven't been able to find them for many other composers like Strauss or Puccini


I guess that has something to do with copyrights.


----------



## SixFootScowl

There are librettos available on Amazon and ebay. Not sure if many are side by side two languages.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Antiquarian said:


> I don't make a distinction between orchestral music, opera, or chamber/ solo works. I find them all enjoyable. As for opera receiving less love here on TC than other forms, I think it all boils down to familiarity. I grew up listening to opera, so the learning curve progressed at about the same rate as orchestral. Not everyone in the world has, and in a way I can see it being a bit more impenetrable for the neophyte. A more interesting observation is the relative lack of love for ballet music. Perhaps because outside of visuals (the dancers, the stage, ect.) ballet resembles the rest of orchestral music, and is lumped in with it. I think even if a classical music lover is averse to listening to opera, they may still enjoy overtures.


I grew up being exposed to opera. My dad was a huge opera fan, especially favoring Verdi, Puccini, Donizetti and Bellini. I have myself given ample time for my love for opera to develop but alas invariably i find that the music is simply not as good as pure instrumental music and that is, as far as I can discern, a direct consequence of the plot and theatrical aspects having such an important role.

So no, nothing to do with familiarity, in my case at least, and everything to do with the secondary importance of music in opera.


----------



## Chronochromie

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I grew up being exposed to opera. My dad was a huge opera fan, especially favoring Verdi, Puccini, Donizetti and Bellini. I have myself given ample time for my love for opera to develop but alas invariably i find that the music is simply not as good as pure instrumental music and that is, as far as I can discern, a direct consequence of the plot and theatrical aspects having such an important role.
> 
> So no, nothing to do with familiarity, in my case at least, and everything to do with the secondary importance of music in opera.


Really, secondary importance? Which operas are still performed today due to their plots or dramatic aspects rather than mostly the music? Or do you mean to the composers who had to take a secondary role? Because again, many composers who were great at instrumental music gave their best imo when writing opera (Mozart, Rameau, Berg, Strauss, Berlioz, etc.)


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

My interest in classical music started with opera, however, through the years, and as I have been exposed to others musicals forms, my interest in opera has gradually decreased.


----------



## Richard8655

Pugg said:


> One thing for sure, nobody is forcing you to opera, so if you feel better with Beethoven, it's your life.


Yes, of course. No one is forcing Chinese traditional music for example, so western classical feels better in life. I think much has to do with exposure early in life.


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## Gouldanian

"The medium is the message." - Marshall McLuhan

The medium is the envelope, the form by which the message (the composition) is delivered to the listener.

In the case of nonvocal classical music, the medium is formed by the musical instruments, the interpretation and the performance itself, as well as the visual experience if witnessed at a live concert. All of these constitute the medium by which the composition is delivered to the listener.

In the case of operas, the vocals and the visuals form a greater portion of the medium than the musical instruments.

In both cases, our appreciation of the compositions depends on our conditioning to their mediums. Conditioning is very complexe and is generally implicitly forged through our past experiences and expositions. It's hard to explain why we like or dislike certain forms of music or art. We can only be aware of our preference and, sometimes, venture into re-conditioning ourselves to enjoy the things we usually don't. Sometimes it works, but often it doesn't.

I personally have never been able to enjoy operas. My conditioning for classical music is way too strong. Am I missing out? Absolutely. But then again, others are missing out on a bunch of other things too. There's no shame in enjoying something in particular, and for me, this something has always been classical music.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

There is a sizable percentage of classical music fans who don't just dislike opera but often dislike most classical vocal music. I can't count the number of times that a Beethoven fanboy here has dismissed Mozart without any real experience of his operas or choral works, or Schubert without an appreciation of his lieder. By the way, Beethoven composed one fine opera, several marvelous choral works, and arguable the first true song-cycle, _An die ferne Geliebte_ (and a damn fine one at that).


----------



## Becca

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> So no, nothing to do with familiarity, in my case at least, and everything to do with the secondary importance of music in opera.


While opera is equally important as other forms of music for me, I can understand this attitude, which is why most of Verdi is of little interest to me.


----------



## SixFootScowl

StlukesguildOhio said:


> There is a sizable percentage of classical music fans who don't just dislike opera but often dislike most classical vocal music. I can't count the number of times that a Beethoven fanboy here has dismissed Mozart without any real experience of his operas or choral works, or Schubert without an appreciation of his lieder. By the way, Beethoven composed one fine opera, several marvelous choral works, and arguable the first true song-cycle, _An die ferne Geliebte_ (and a damn fine one at that).


Yes, several people I work with who listen to classical most of the time, run from any vocal classical almost like they are experiencing revulsion. I don't know if it is just they don't like vocals, or that they feel by listening to vocal classical they are joining those "better than others" snobbish sorts and want to avoid that impression. Perhaps both.


----------



## EdwardBast

Chronochromie said:


> Primarily what I care about in opera or music with lyrics in general is the music. I can't agree that opera and instrumental music are unrelated phenomena, many people do listen to "the film soundtrack without the film", nothing wrong with that either, it's judging the strength of the music itself, and in operas like those of Rameau, Strauss or Mussorgsky that's usually all I'm paying attention to, and as in my favorite operas the music is good enough on its own I often just listen to recordings.


It is possible to primarily "care about … the music" but still find no opera worth listening to for the music alone. That's where I am. If an opera doesn't have really good music I won't bother with it at all (of course!), but if the dramatic and musical characterization isn't excellent too, I probably won't be interested either. This is probably why I don't care about many operas. 



Chronochromie said:


> I can speak Italian so I can understand what's going in Mozart, Verdi, Monteverdi even if I'm not really paying attention to what they're saying. But for French, German, Russian, etc. I don't always read a synopsis or watch a production first unless I really feel like it or it's a long opera and it's my first time with it.


I might sample just the music of an unfamiliar opera to see if it is worth my time, but I will never sit through an opera if I am not engaged with the text, plot and characterization as well.


----------



## Bradius

Barelytenor said:


> This is interesting. What specifically about it do you find irritating that the other forms of vocal music you cite above lack?
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> George


Much opera singing sounds silly or hysterical (as in histrionics) to me.


----------



## Barelytenor

I can understand some of that. They sing "addio, addio" for half an hour rather than just leaving. This is actually a scene between the rakish (rapish) Duke (disguised as the penniless student Gualtier Maldè) and Gilda in Rigoletto. :lol:

I guess in my case and that of many other opera lovers, we listen and admire the smoothness of their vocal scales and their impassioned delivery, rather than merely wishing their absence.

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


----------



## hpowders

Bradius said:


> Much opera singing sounds silly or hysterical (as in histrionics) to me.


I believe most people who have not been "acclimated" to opera feel the same way.


----------



## hpowders

Barelytenor said:


> I can understand some of that. They sing "addio, addio" for half an hour rather than just leaving. This is actually a scene between the rakish (rapish) Duke (disguised as the penniless student Gualtier Maldè) in Rigoletto. :lol:
> 
> I guess in my case and that of many other opera lovers, we listen and admire the smoothness of their vocal scales and their impassioned delivery, rather than merely wishing their absence.
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> George


Ha! Ha! Yeah. That always makes me chuckle when watching Rigoletto!

When I was teaching, I could have made the kids laugh on June 30th, the last day of the school year if I began "addio...addio, speranza ed anima."

Or even better- it would have gotten rid of them faster! :lol:


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Florestan said:


> Yes, several people I work with who listen to classical most of the time, run from any vocal classical almost like they are experiencing revulsion. I don't know if it is just they don't like vocals, or that they feel by listening to vocal classical they are joining those "better than others" snobbish sorts and want to avoid that impression. Perhaps both.


I will try to answer from a position of my own self before I learned to love vocal classical: the vocals are just too affectated, too unnatural, too much in-your-face, but also too academically polished and meant to make an impression. Nobody in "real life" sings or speaks like that. Once you overcome that impression, the vocals become beautiful, but for some people it takes an effort to get used to that overtly expressive singing.


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## ArtMusic

Liking opera is an essential part of the complete classical music listener's experience for the majority. Most do. Some don't. There are superb music from opera and the best minds have dedicated to writing a lot of opera. The few do not are atypical examples. Bach and Brahms are two. Fact.


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## millionrainbows

I don't like it when there is no melody, and a guy is just singing one note over a whole bunch of dialog: …and-now-Compristo-I-will-proceed-to-kill-your-WIIIIIIIIIFFFFFFFEEEEEE…..


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Chronochromie said:


> Really, secondary importance? Which operas are still performed today due to their plots or dramatic aspects rather than mostly the music? Or do you mean to the composers who had to take a secondary role? Because again, many composers who were great at instrumental music gave their best imo when writing opera (Mozart, Rameau, Berg, Strauss, Berlioz, etc.)


I mean that in opera I find the music is often not the primary focus but serves to support/enhance the words being sung. Same as in songs. That's why there are so many musically dull moments in opera. Yes, there are lots of brilliant exceptions but it's mostly one-off arias or overtures that hold my interest. And I would disagree that Mozart's best music is in his operas. To me it's in his last few symphonies, piano concertos, clarinet concerto and chamber music.

I do enjoy greatly Pavarotti singing nessum dorma or e lucevan le stelle, for example, so I am not an opera/human voice hater. I just don't enjoy opera as a whole nearly as much as abstract music.


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## Chronochromie

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I mean that in opera I find the music is often not the primary focus but serves to support/enhance the words being sung. Same as in songs. That's why there are so many musically dull moments in opera. Yes, there are lots of brilliant exceptions but it's mostly one-off arias or overtures that hold my interest.


Interesting. That has not been my experience at all, at least in my favorite operas, which tend to keep me interested from start to finish with tons of great moments throughout.



TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> And I would disagree that Mozart's best music is in his operas. To me it's in his last few symphonies, piano concertos, clarinet concerto and chamber music.


To me the best Mozart operas, sacred music and piano concertos > the rest of his output.


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## JAS

I like a great deal of the orchestral music from operas, and many of the individual selections with singing. I do find that the librettos often sound much prettier than the actual words. In La Boheme, for example, the sound of the singing is gorgeous, until one learns that much of the actual words are rather banal, equivalent to "I'm home from work, dear, what's for supper?" "Pancakes." "Ah, that's okay, I like pancakes." (I am indulging a bit in hyperbole here, and not quoting actual dialogue.) There is really only one part where the words are very striking, where Mimi, dying, asks if she is still beautiful. Rudolfo, nobly and perhaps through the eyes of a lover, says "Yes, as lovely as a sunrise" and Mimi counters "you mean a sunset." Very poignant. In theory, a full blown opera should be ideal for me, as I love the costumes and sets, but too often they reinterpret classical opera in bizarre settings, which I find off-putting. I did recently buy a DVD set of the Met Ring Cycle (conducted by Levine), as that uses mostly traditional staging. There, I find it hard to watch as with the camera in so close, it becomes evident that a good deal of spittle is being exchanged by the singers. I don't know how they manage not to react to that. It must take great dedication.


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## jailhouse

I love Wagner and modern opera, haven't gotten that into traditional italian style Or Mozart style operas yet though.


----------



## Barelytenor

jailhouse said:


> I love Wagner and modern opera, haven't gotten that into traditional italian style Or Mozart style operas yet though.


What modern operas do you like?

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


----------



## Gazzington

I have only just started listening to classical music but it's wagner that has got me started


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## Sloe

Chronochromie said:


> Interesting. That has not been my experience at all, at least in my favorite operas, which tend to keep me interested from start to finish with tons of great moments throughout.
> 
> To me the best Mozart operas, sacred music and piano concertos > the rest of his output.


There are operas with dull musical moments but also operas with no or few dull moments I prefer those.
Mozart operas in Italian and other operas with secco recitatives is the kind of operas I find really difficult to like there I prefer Mozart´s operas in German and his other works.


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## Becca

I find it fascinating to note that some of the more negative, even derogatory comments about opera come from those who often get very angry when anyone makes similar comments about modern music. Let me suggest to those people that they put as much effort into getting to know and understand opera as they want others to do with their favorite music.


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## hpowders

Both classical music and opera are acquired tastes. Like learning a language, comfort with their sounds are best acquired in young childhood.

Those who had opera recordings played in their homes when they were 6-12, will either grow up loving it or move out at an early age.

Try and expose a 40-50 year old novice to opera, or classical music, with the end-point of creating a fanatic, I'm afraid one is beating one's head against a wall.


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## Becca

hpowders said:


> Try and expose a 40-50 year old novice to opera, or classical music, with the end-point of creating a fanatic, I'm afraid one is beating one's head against a wall.


All one has to do to realize that this is nonsense is read some of the classical newbie threads which regularly appear in this forum.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Becca said:


> All one has to do to realize that this is nonsense is read some of the classical newbie threads which regularly appear in this forum.


Yes. Just like with learning a language, it comes down to the degree of dedication and desire to learn something new.


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## Casebearer

I love operas (and Lieder) the same way as I love instrumental classical music: I like part of the repertoire and I dislike other parts. For me there is no distinction in genres I like or don't like, just the music that appeals to me or not.

I don't know if I believe in this acquired taste motif that I read a lot about. Maybe other people recognize that but I don't. I remember that I found someone singing Italian Lieder in school when I was 10 years a bit strange but I have never really put any effort into 'liking' music. A few years later, around my 14th birthday I just organically grew into loving (and hating!) classical music, all by myself. Including opera although that grew on me a bit later, I think from when I was 22 years old or so. 
My parents only played music I find horrible up to this date so it can't come from them.


----------



## Pugg

SiegendesLicht said:


> Yes. Just like with learning a language, it comes down to the degree of dedication and desire to learn something new.


I give you:_ post of the day!_


----------



## Lenny

hpowders said:


> Both classical music and opera are acquired tastes. Like learning a language, comfort with their sounds are best acquired in young childhood.
> 
> Those who had opera recordings played in their homes when they were 6-12, will either grow up loving it or move out at an early age.
> 
> Try and expose a 40-50 year old novice to opera, or classical music, with the end-point of creating a fanatic, I'm afraid one is beating one's head against a wall.


I guess there's some truth in this, but in the end it is all about music. Those who truly find music appealing, will eventually gravitate towards more diverse musical world, which means in the end CM (and all other serious music as well).

For example, I didn't grow up with CM, or any music, to be absolutely honest. But for reason or another, I got interested when I was in my twenties. I got some CD's (Sibelius #2 was the very first!) and found it fascinating. Very difficult to follow fully in the beginning, but there was something, so the jorney began.. Now almost three decades later I'm still on that road and see no end, or alternative to it.

I have absolutely no doubt that same could happen to some people in my age. And that "condition" would develop much faster, I think (young people have so much other important things going on...).


----------



## PlaySalieri

Sloe said:


> There are operas with dull musical moments but also operas with no or few dull moments I prefer those.
> Mozart operas and other operas with secco recitatives is the kind of operas I find really difficult to like there I prefer Mozart´s other works.


Then stick with post Rossini opera - Verdi, Puccini etc.


----------



## Guest

SiegendesLicht said:


> Yes. Just like with learning a language, it comes down to the degree of dedication and desire to learn something new.


Very true.:tiphat:


----------



## Guest

Barelytenor said:


> I'd like to hear from many members speaking up as to whether they do or do not like opera? When you think of "classical music," do you usually exclude opera from that?


Two questions then.

No, I dont like opera. Whether I might come to like opera at some point in the future is another matter. No, I don't exclude opera from 'classical music', but since the term 'classical music' is open to both broad and narrow interpretations, that's not too much of a problem.


----------



## PlaySalieri

MacLeod said:


> Two questions then.
> 
> *No, I dont like opera.* Whether I might come to like opera at some point in the future is another matter. No, I don't exclude opera from 'classical music', but since the term 'classical music' is open to both broad and narrow interpretations, that's not too much of a problem.


What - not even Fidelio?


----------



## Chris

I pretty well ignored opera for decades but I have recently started to discover what a treasure I have been neglecting and I am trying to make up for lost time. There is still a difficulty (for UK listeners at least) in the cost and availability of DVD recordings. There are second hand DVDs on ebay but you often don't know what you're buying. I want a proper production with scenery and costumes as the composer intended, not a bare stage with one chair in the middle and everyone dressed in Chairman Mao boiler suits, but the production style is usually hard to discern from ebay ads. 

But Youtube comes to the rescue. You have to be quick as recordings are often deleted not long after they are posted, but I have managed to watch good productions of all these on Youtube, and loved all of them:

Monteverdi	: Orfeo
Monteverdi	: L'incoronazione di Poppea
Monteverdi	: Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria
Handel	: Alcina
Mozart	: Cosi Fan Tutte
Mozart	: Don Giovanni
Mozart	: The Marriage of Figaro
Mozart	: La Clemenza di Tito
Mozart	: The Magic Flute
Berg : Wozzeck
Britten	: Albert Herring
Britten	: Billy Budd
Britten	: Owen Wingrave
Bartok	: Duke Bluebeard's Castle
Humperdinck : Hansel und Gretel
Strauss, J : Die Fledermaus
Meyerbeer	: The Huguenots
Rossini	: La Cenerentola
Rossini	: The Barber of Seville
Glinka : Ruslan and Ludmila
Ravel : L'Heure Espagnole
Bellini : Norma
donizetti	: La Fille du Regiment
Smetana : The Kiss
Smetana : The Secret
Smetana : The Two Widows
Weber	: Der Freischutz
Verdi : Nabucco
Debussy	: Pelleas et Melisande


----------



## Guest

stomanek said:


> What - not even Fidelio?


OK - let me be a little more precise. I don't like much of the opera that I have listened to, and so what I have listened to has not caused me to seek out more. Consequently, I've never listened to Fidelio.

Having said that, there are pieces that I have enjoyed - the odd overture and the odd well known tune (Barber of Seville, Carmen, Magic Flute, Thieving Magpie etc) - but to acknowledge that is only the same as a symphony-phobe acknowledging that they like the best known scherzos from a handful of famous symphonies, but couldn't bear to sit through a whole one.

"You know that bit where the horns go "Baaa, baaa, baaa, baa buh buh buh buh bum, bu-bu-bum, bu-bu-bum, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-baaaaa...etc?"
"Yes."
"I love it. You can keep the rest!"


----------



## hpowders

OP: The only way to get an intelligent answer to the thread title is to take a poll: Do devout classical music lovers also like opera? and then leave it up permanently as a Sticky.

Otherwise all you get on this thread is why individual posters like or do not like opera, which is purely anecdotal and not significant statistically.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

stomanek said:


> What - not even Fidelio?


Best thing about Fidelio is that Beethoven wrote 4 overtures for it


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> The only way to get an *intelligent *answer


Not the only way at all. The only way to get a 'statistically informed' answer, perhaps. Besides, if you don't like my anecdotes, well, I have others!


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## Strange Magic

Except for those of Puccini, I do not listen to opera, though I affirm that it is an integral part of classical music. I do notice, however, that some opera lovers--not all, but some--are almost wholly absorbed by opera, its staging, its singers, all the attendant folderol, such that they have little to say about purely instrumental CM. I have a lifelong friend who is almost completely fulfilled within CM by opera.


----------



## PlaySalieri

I used to own a classical CD/LP shop so saw a lot of people's tastes. I did notice some polarisation between instrumental/orch/chamber and another crowd who only ever bought opera sets - the latter tended to be bel canto stage door johnnies who also boasted signed programs etc. There were the Handel people who seemed to listen to nothing but handel operas. And the wagner fans who bought nothing but Wagner and if they did buy an orch CD it would be a gift for someone.
I felt and still feel good about liking classical music across the board within my own taste range of course - favouring opera but paying barely less attention to every other genre.
It was amusing to see what people bought though. There was one guy that used to buy a CD of Mozart's 40 and 41 - and be back a week later to trade it in for another version - he kept this up for weeks and I often wonder whether he has yet found a reading he is happy with. He certainly never bought opera - thought Brahms wrote "turgid" stuff and hailed Dvorak for never writing a sour note.


----------



## Barelytenor

While I confess that I am more focused on opera (being a trained singer myself), I cannot imagine life without the Bach _Orchestral Suites, WTC,_ and broad swaths of Baroque, Classical, Romantic, and Impressionist music. Brahms I can pretty much live without, except for the _Deutsches Requiem._

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


----------



## Pat Fairlea

For me, opera needs to be a live experience, so I listen to it far less frequently than I do symphonies, concerti, chamber music etc. Opera on CD or DVD just doesn't engage me.


----------



## SixFootScowl

hpowders said:


> OP: The only way to get an intelligent answer to the thread title is to take a poll: Do devout classical music lovers also like opera? and then leave it up permanently as a Sticky.
> 
> Otherwise all you get on this thread is why individual posters like or do not like opera, which is purely anecdotal and not significant statistically.


It seems like a poll has been done. Close but not quite (broadly open to vocal vs instrumental) is this one I started:

http://www.talkclassical.com/39037-vocal-instrumental-what-your.html?highlight=

Perhaps this one comes closer, but still not opposing opera to instrumental classical:

http://www.talkclassical.com/43332-do-you-like-opera.html?highlight=


----------



## Woodduck

Opera can be seen as the most extreme form of program music, and in a way is the fulfillment of its potential. It represents the conscious use of music to express specific emotions. Operatic music must still have formal coherence to be attractive and memorable as music, but purely aesthetic qualities are subordinate to its dramatic function. I think some people are antipathetic to this concept of musical expression. I've never understood that; I've have always loved vocal music and opera, and I revel in the skill composers exhibit in representing characters and dramatic situations.


----------



## isorhythm

An obstacle for a lot of people is that, as drama, almost all opera is really really bad.


----------



## Sloe

isorhythm said:


> An obstacle for a lot of people is that, as drama, almost all opera is really really bad.


As long as the music is beautiful the drama can be horrible.


----------



## Becca

There are times when not understanding the language is a good thing


----------



## mountmccabe

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Best thing about Fidelio is that Beethoven wrote 4 overtures for it


Though these overtures are not music written for purely aesthetic reasons (even by Beethoven's standards). One of the reasons the longer ones were discarded is that they gave too much of the story of the opera away.


----------



## JACE

I like opera. But I don't _love_ opera.

Here's an analogy that I use to help explain why: Art songs appeal to me more than opera for the same reason that poetry appeals to me more than drama.

Songs and poetry are verbal _distillations_. Without imagination, they don't exist; the "magic" happens in the listeners'/readers' minds.

On the other hand, opera and plays are _realizations_. The action is on the stage, in the world. The visual component -- which is insignificant in other musical forms -- is hugely important in any opera production.

Music without the visual component that drama requires somehow strikes me as being more _pure_, more _beyond earthly constraints_, more _able to express the inexpressible_.

Of course, I'm sure that there are opera lovers that feel precisely this way about opera -- and the visual component that I don't particularly dig is what it makes it WORK for them! So I make no pretensions to explaining this as anything other than my own *purely personal preference*.

However, I think many music-lovers who don't particularly enjoy opera share these same preferences with me -- whether they're spoken or unspoken.

At the very least, that's how I've thought about it myself.


----------



## Faustian

isorhythm said:


> An obstacle for a lot of people is that, as drama, almost all opera is really really bad.


I strongly disagree. Well, let me take that back. I can understand that criticism, if one is approaching opera as one would approach other forms of drama, like theater or film, and trying to separate the "drama" from the "music", as if they are were two separate entities in an opera. But of course what is really happening is that in an opera the drama is unfolding through the music as much as through the words and actions, and in the process creates a subjective expression of the inner emotions of the characters in a way that other dramatic art forms do not, and I think this is what is so appealing for many fans of opera. Taken as simply a plot with dialogue, La boheme is a thin piece of melodrama indeed; but with Puccini's musical genius and it's ability to elevate the words and convey a whole new level of meaning in the drama that is unattainable through simply reading a summary of what is happening on stage or what the characters are saying, it becomes an astonishing and heartfelt work of art.

What it comes down to is one's willingness to accept the art form on it's own terms.


----------



## Faustian

JACE said:


> I like opera. But I don't _love_ opera.
> 
> Here's an analogy that I use to help explain why: Art songs appeal to me more than opera for the same reason that poetry appeals to me more than drama.
> 
> Songs and poetry are verbal _distillations_. Without imagination, they don't exist; the "magic" happens in the listeners'/readers' minds.
> 
> On the other hand, opera and plays are _realizations_. The action is on the stage, in the world. The visual component -- which is insignificant in other musical forms -- is hugely important in any opera production.
> 
> Music without the visual component that drama requires somehow strikes me as being more _pure_, more _beyond earthly constraints_, more _able to express the inexpressible_.
> 
> Of course, I'm sure that there are opera lovers that feel precisely this way about opera -- and the visual component that I don't particularly dig is what it makes it WORK for them! So I make no pretensions to explaining this as anything other than my own *purely personal preference*.
> 
> However, I think many music-lovers who don't particularly enjoy opera share these same preferences with me -- whether they're spoken or unspoken.
> 
> At the very least, that's how I've thought about it myself.


It's interesting that Wagner considered the events on stage in his operas to be "deeds of music made visible", and in way the music can be seen the distillation of the dramatic situations on stage.

The visual element is indeed important in an opera, however for myself I've never had any problem listening to recordings of opera, where I can allow my imagination full reign in conjuring the scenes and characters presented.


----------



## Bettina

JACE said:


> I like opera. But I don't _love_ opera.
> 
> Here's an analogy that I use to help explain why: Art songs appeal to me more than opera for the same reason that poetry appeals to me more than drama.
> 
> Songs and poetry are verbal _distillations_. Without imagination, they don't exist; the "magic" happens in the listeners'/readers' minds.
> 
> On the other hand, opera and plays are _realizations_. The action is on the stage, in the world. The visual component -- which is insignificant in other musical forms -- is hugely important in any opera production.
> 
> Music without the visual component that drama requires somehow strikes me as being more _pure_, more _beyond earthly constraints_, more _able to express the inexpressible_.
> 
> Of course, I'm sure that there are opera lovers that feel precisely this way about opera -- and the visual component that I don't particularly dig is what it makes it WORK for them! So I make no pretensions to explaining this as anything other than my own *purely personal preference*.
> 
> However, I think many music-lovers who don't particularly enjoy opera share these same preferences with me -- whether they're spoken or unspoken.
> 
> At the very least, that's how I've thought about it myself.


This was a fascinating read! I love the idea of dividing musical genres into distillations and realizations.

I'm curious about your thoughts on oratorios. Do any oratorios appeal to you, and if so, which ones? Do most oratorios strike you as distillations or realizations? It seems like they might be somewhere in between--many oratorios have detailed libretti, but nothing is actually being acted out on stage.


----------



## mountmccabe

isorhythm said:


> An obstacle for a lot of people is that, as drama, almost all opera is really really bad.


I would disagree.

As a method of conveying a complex plot, opera is substandard. That I will grant. This is one reason many people recommend reading a plot synopsis or similar before watching an opera. This is also why so many operas have cliched plots, and/or are adapted from well-known stories (myths, novels, plays, history), and that when they are adapted, they're generally simplified.

But I would say that drama is not in laying out a plot, but in expressing the underlying human motivations and emotions explored by those plot elements. And as a method of conveying motivations, and exploring emotions, opera is among the best mediums.

That is, the drama of _Die Walküre_ is not the details of what happens, but in why Siegmund chooses to not follow Brünnhilde, and in turn why she chooses to protect him. And in why Wotan is conflicted regarding all of this. Wagner's music - including the vocal writing - does a great deal to convey the passions underlying everything.

Strauss' _Elektra_ is based on 2500-year-old story that had been presented many, many times, yet give me a good performance and I will tear up as Elektra is about to recognize Orest.


----------



## JACE

Faustian said:


> I strongly disagree. Well, let me take that back. I can understand that criticism, if one is approaching opera as one would approach other forms of drama, like theater or film, and trying to separate the "drama" from the "music", as if they are were two separate entities in an opera. But of course what is really happening is that in an opera the drama is unfolding through the music as much as through the words and actions, and in the process creates a subjective expression of the inner emotions of the characters in a way that other dramatic art forms do not, and think this is what is so appealing for many fans of opera. Taken as simply a plot with dialogue, La boheme is a thin piece of melodrama indeed; but with Puccini's musical genius and it's ability to elevate the words and convey a whole new level of meaning in the drama that is unattainable through simply reading a summary of what is happening on stage or what the characters are saying, it becomes an astonishing and heartfelt work of art.
> 
> *What it comes down to is one's willingness to accept the art form on it's own terms.*


I agree 100% with this.

You have accept a certain "fairy tale" aspect in opera. But this is also true in non-musical drama -- even in the very best drama. For example, a great deal of action in Shakespeare's plays is implausible and silly. His plays are FILLED with stuff that's unrealistic. But you have to accept these "leaps of faith" as part of the whole. Without suspending your disbelief, the play or opera can't come to life.


----------



## mountmccabe

Faustian said:


> But of course what is really happening is that in an opera the drama is unfolding through the music as much as through the words and actions, and in the process creates a subjective expression of the inner emotions of the characters in a way that other dramatic art forms do not, and I think this is what is so appealing for many fans of opera.


I had not seen your reply when I wrote mine! Well said.


----------



## JACE

Bettina said:


> This was a fascinating read! I love the idea of dividing musical genres into distillations and realizations.
> 
> I'm curious about your thoughts on oratorios. Do any oratorios appeal to you, and if so, which ones? Do most oratorios strike you as distillations or realizations? It seems like they might be somewhere in between--many oratorios have detailed libretti, but nothing is actually being acted out on stage.


Thanks Bettina. That's very kind of you to say. 

I see what you're saying about oratorios occupying some sort of middle ground. That makes sense.

I'm not particularly keen on oratorios -- but I don't dislike them either.

I definitely listen to Berlioz's _Romeo & Juliet_ more than I listen to his _Benvenuto Cellini_ or _Les Troyen_. I suppose part of that is because I'm not "missing out" on any drama. The action happens in the mind. But perhaps Berlioz's music isn't a good example -- because most of it (all of it?) is program music -- and that automatically makes it less abstract, less "pure" (very much quote/unquote).

Then again, every oratorio is going to have a program too.

I dunno. I haven't thought this one through!


----------



## Becca

JACE said:


> Thanks Bettina. That's very kind of you to say.
> 
> I see what you're saying about oratorios occupying some sort of middle ground. That makes sense.
> 
> I'm not particularly keen on oratorios -- but I don't dislike them either.
> 
> I definitely listen to Berlioz's _Romeo & Juliet_ more than I listen to his _Benvenuto Cellini_ or _Les Troyen_. I suppose part of that is because I'm not "missing out" on any drama. The action happens in the mind. But perhaps Berlioz's music isn't a good example -- because most of it (all of it?) is program music -- and that automatically makes it less abstract, less "pure" (very much quote/unquote).
> 
> Then again, every oratorio is going to have a program too.
> 
> I dunno. I haven't thought this one through!


Damnation of Faust? Gurre-Lieder?


----------



## bharbeke

The biggest hurdle for me in listening to more opera is sheer length. It is easy enough to squeeze in orchestral/chamber works into a listening schedule that are an hour or less. Operas tend to be 2.5-4 hours, so it is harder to just listen to them on a whim.


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## bz3

I enjoy opera more recently but probably 90% of my listening is still non-opera. The length and the lack of familiarity/appreciation for the style of singing were initial hurdles. Now I just divide it into acts so I don't bite off too much, find the libretti, and enjoy. I still don't know or appreciate enough about the styles of singing compared to how I do orchestral works but I attribute that to being able to play string and wind instruments and being unable to sing worth a lick, and therefore my learning curve will be steeper.


----------



## Becca

bharbeke said:


> The biggest hurdle for me in listening to more opera is sheer length. It is easy enough to squeeze in orchestral/chamber works into a listening schedule that are an hour or less. Operas tend to be 2.5-4 hours, so it is harder to just listen to them on a whim.


Not all operas are that long...

Puccini did 3 which are under 1 hour
Gustav Holst did one
Rossini wrote a few one act operas
Mascagni's Cavalleria is about 70 minutes

and there are other choices


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## SixFootScowl

I don't know if I could even sustain my level of classical listening if it were not for opera. I spend very little time on non vocal. The reason I first checked out opera was because many years ago I was bored by pure instrumental classical (having grown up on rock), and figured the singing and acting would help make it more interesting. More recently I got into opera because I was on a Beethoven kick and listened to Fidelio a few times and decided it might be worth a try to get a DVD of Fidelio. That was a three years ago. I now have about 100 operas on DVD and keep finding more to buy. But I don't get a lot of time for DVD so spend most of my opera listening time with sound recordings.


----------



## JACE

Becca said:


> Damnation of Faust? Gurre-Lieder?


Yes! And yes! And I like Elgar's "Dream of Gerontius" too -- although I can honestly say that I don't really pay that much attention to the words with any of these!


----------



## Barelytenor

hpowders said:


> OP: The only way to get an intelligent answer to the thread title is to take a poll: Do devout classical music lovers also like opera? and then leave it up permanently as a Sticky.
> 
> Otherwise all you get on this thread is why individual posters like or do not like opera, which is purely anecdotal and not significant statistically.


I much prefer the subjective opinions anyway.

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


----------



## isorhythm

I agree with the above thoughtful responses, actually - I like opera - but what I was getting at in my overly flippant post was that lots of people _do _want to approach opera as they would a book or movie or play, and that's an obstacle for them.

That said, it's not clear to me _why_ opera libretti have traditionally been produced and evaluated to such a low literary standard, and I'm not sure it's really defensible. I don't think it's somehow an inevitable feature of the form and I think opera succeeds entirely despite it.


----------



## Barelytenor

Becca said:


> Not all operas are that long...
> 
> Puccini did 3 which are under 1 hour
> Gustav Holst did one
> Rossini wrote a few one act operas
> Mascagni's Cavalleria is about 70 minutes
> 
> and there are other choices


Several operas of Benjamin Britten are not that long but packed with drama. Billy Budd and Peter Grimes come to mind.

My own passion for music came first from the visual arts (listening to Debussy's La Cathedrale Engloutie [the Sunken Cathedral] while admiring the Impressionist painting of the same name in a high school class; and watching Disney's Fantasia when I was maybe 6-8 years old), but then was redoubled when I heard the remarkable operatic voice of Joan Sutherland. I was an opera fanatic from that point forward. I became a music major, came close to a professional career (sang in professional opera choruses and as bass-baritone church soloist for many years), and branched out into loving even strictly instrumental, non-programmatic classical music-Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Schubert, but that was the last to come.

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


----------



## Manxfeeder

JACE said:


> Yes! And yes! And I like Elgar's "Dream of Gerontius" too -- although I can honestly say that I don't really pay that much attention to the words with any of these!


I'm glad you admitted that. I don't, either. Now I don't feel so bad.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Becca said:


> Not all operas are that long...
> 
> Puccini did 3 which are under 1 hour
> Gustav Holst did one
> Rossini wrote a few one act operas
> Mascagni's Cavalleria is about 70 minutes
> 
> and there are other choices


Mozart's "The Impressario" is not long - under 1 hour - but it's also not one of his better efforts.


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## Barelytenor

This thread has gone dormant, and there's nothing wrong with that ... But I wonder if this brief discussion has in the intervening time spurred any of those folks to broaden their horizons? Either listening to (or watching) opera if they seldom/never have before, or getting into more purely instrumental forms if they were largely opera fans before? (And particularly those for whom someone said "It's impossible to get someone 40 or 50 to like opera if they don't already.") 

Or are there folks trying a step at a time by maybe delving into some oratorios ... or listening to only wonderful opera singers a la Woodduck's post regarding that?

Anyway, happy listening (or watching). Comments welcome!

PS It occurs to me that there is another route to come to love opera: Are there older language learners who now speak more Italian / English / French / Russian / whatever who now are trying opera in those languages for the first time, now that the language is less of a barrier to the plot and drama?

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Ingélou

I love classical music and I like opera too. I don't get the chance to see it much, and I admit I don't seek it out on cds or online, so I don't know much about it - but then, I don't know much about classical music (as a whole) in any case, and I tend not to seek out symphonies on cds or online either. 

I am a musical omnivore who prefers snacking to long dinners. 
If a lot of 'classical music lovers' are like me and don't have great powers of concentration, then I think it's likely that a large proportion of lovers of classical music will not like opera as much as non-opera.


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## Marinera

I like singing, but have little interest in drama. Although I like visuals and staging. So my response to opera is rather mixed. I am not above picking just the best bits and arias.


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## Mal

I'm not just a snacker, I often like to get lost in the music for long periods of time. So I'm quite happy listening to the longest symphonies. But I haven't managed to get into Opera in any way that is satisfactory to me. I think it's the language barrier that's the main problem. I can't stand not knowing what they are singing about! Following a translation distracts from getting lost in the music. Even in Opera sung in English, the plots are often perplexing, and the words usually indistinct. There are long stretches of recitative that are extremely tedious. Also, the singers often grate on me.


----------



## janxharris

Woodduck said:


> I both love and hate opera, depending on the quality of the singing. Many people dislike "operatic" singing, by which they generally mean insensitive bellowing and shrieking loaded down with vibrato that can even make the pitch of the sung note indecipherable. I'm completely sympathetic to this. Truly great singing is relatively uncommon, but when you do hear it, it can go the heart like no other form of music-making.


I agree with your comment about vibrato - it can be a huge irritant. Would love to hear some opera sung without it - or at least toned down a bit.

Unfortunately, my immediate response to hearing most opera is usually that it sounds ridiculous.

Having said that, Wagner's Tristan has grabbed me (though I haven't got through all of it yet). I was drawn in by the prelude.


----------



## Marinera

janxharris said:


> I agree with your comment about vibrato - it can be a huge irritant. Would love to hear some opera sung without it - or at least toned down a bit.


The baroque opera is the answer then.


----------



## janxharris

Please note: I'm just voicing how I perceive a lot of opera when I say 'ridiculous'. I respect those that do not agree.


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## janxharris

Marinera said:


> The baroque opera is the answer then.


I think I have tried some but I'm not generally a fan of the harmonic language of that period.
Thanks anyway.


----------



## Nereffid

When I ran my poll series, one of the objections to them was how poorly placed the two great opera composers were when I ranked them - Wagner barely scraped into the top 20, while Verdi didn't even manage the top 50. The theory was that they should be placed higher, and because they weren't, the polls were wrong. But also in my polls involving individual works, _La traviata_ - most-performed opera in the world according to 2015/16 figures from Operabase - proved to be only about as popular as (for example) Haydn's Symphony no.43, or Shostakovich's Symphony no.1, and Boulez's _Notations_. Which is to say, the world's most popular opera was (in these polls) only about as popular as any-old symphony by a popular classical composer, a not-especially popular symphony by a popular 20th-century symphonist, or a major work by a relatively popular modern composer.

So the impression I got from the polls overall was that among the participants opera wasn't as popular as I expected.

It's also the case that the UK's Classic FM rarely plays opera arias, suggesting there's no particular appetite among the public-at-large.


----------



## janxharris

Nereffid said:


> When I ran my poll series, one of the objections to them was how poorly placed the two great opera composers were when I ranked them - Wagner barely scraped into the top 20, while Verdi didn't even manage the top 50. The theory was that they should be placed higher, and because they weren't, the polls were wrong. But also in my polls involving individual works, _La traviata_ - most-performed opera in the world according to 2015/16 figures from Operabase - proved to be only about as popular as (for example) Haydn's Symphony no.43, or Shostakovich's Symphony no.1, and Boulez's _Notations_. Which is to say, the world's most popular opera was (in these polls) only about as popular as any-old symphony by a popular classical composer, a not-especially popular symphony by a popular 20th-century symphonist, or a major work by a relatively popular modern composer.
> 
> So the impression I got from the polls overall was that among the participants opera wasn't as popular as I expected.
> 
> It's also the case that the UK's Classic FM rarely plays opera arias, suggesting there's no particular appetite among the public-at-large.


? Perhaps I have misderstood - but:

The TC Top 272 Recommended Operas
Facilitated by jhar26

*1. Wagner - Der Ring des Nibelungen
2. Wagner - Tristan und Isolde*
3. Mozart - Le Nozze di Figaro
4. Handel - Giulio Cesare
5. Berlioz - Les Troyens
6. Mozart - Don Giovanni
7. Verdi - La Traviata
8. Puccini - La Bohème
9. Strauss - Der Rosenkavalier
*10. Wagner - Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg*
11. Mozart - Die Zauberflöte
12. Bizet - Carmen
*13. Wagner - Parsifal*
14. Rossini - Il Barbiere di Siviglia
15. Verdi - Otello
16. Puccini - Tosca
17. Mozart - Così fan Tutte
18. Berg - Wozzeck
19. Strauss - Salome
20. Donizetti - Lucia di Lammermoor
*21. Wagner - Lohengrin*


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## SixFootScowl

janxharris said:


> Please note:* I'm just voicing how I perceive a lot of opera when I say 'ridiculous'.* I respect those that do not agree.


My wife has the same perception.


----------



## Mal

janxharris said:


> ? Perhaps I have misderstood - but: 1. Wagner - Der Ring des Nibelungen
> 2. Wagner - Tristan und Isolde...


I think what is meant is in the poll of *all* classical composers, Wagner barely scrapes into the top 20. Where is that list by the way, how do you find these lists?


----------



## Nereffid

janxharris said:


> ? Perhaps I have misderstood - but:
> 
> The TC Top 272 Recommended Operas
> Facilitated by jhar26
> 
> *1. Wagner - Der Ring des Nibelungen
> 2. Wagner - Tristan und Isolde*
> 3. Mozart - Le Nozze di Figaro
> 4. Handel - Giulio Cesare
> 5. Berlioz - Les Troyens
> 6. Mozart - Don Giovanni
> 7. Verdi - La Traviata
> 8. Puccini - La Bohème
> 9. Strauss - Der Rosenkavalier
> *10. Wagner - Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg*
> 11. Mozart - Die Zauberflöte
> 12. Bizet - Carmen
> *13. Wagner - Parsifal*
> 14. Rossini - Il Barbiere di Siviglia
> 15. Verdi - Otello
> 16. Puccini - Tosca
> 17. Mozart - Così fan Tutte
> 18. Berg - Wozzeck
> 19. Strauss - Salome
> 20. Donizetti - Lucia di Lammermoor
> *21. Wagner - Lohengrin*


You have indeed misunderstood. My polls were of composers generally, and compositions generally. It's no surprise to see Wagner and Verdi do well in a poll specifically about operas! (See links in my signature)


----------



## Art Rock

Mal said:


> Where is that list by the way, how do you find these lists?


See Nereffid's signature....


----------



## Mal

I can handle the "vibrato", it's the "insensitive bellowing and shrieking" that gets me, especially when it goes on for ten hours plus in The Ring.


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## janxharris

Fritz Kobus said:


> My wife has the same perception.


Do you know her reaction to this:

Henryk Górecki - Symphony No.3 - II ''Lento e Largo'' Tranquillissimo - The London Sinfonietta: David Zinman, Dawn Upshaw.

It works for me - though, of course, it's not opera.


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## WildThing

Mal said:


> Following a translation distracts from getting lost in the music.


Interesting! For me it's the exact opposite. Following the translation helps me get lost in the music even more as I can follow along with how the music relates to what's being sung. It's the same when listening to a lieder or a mass, or a symphony by Mahler. It only enhances my appreciation.

But yeah, I can see how not knowing what is being sung would be a HUUUGE barrier to enjoying opera, and how a lot of the singing would indeed sound like random bellowing if you had no idea what was going on. Even for me, a huge lover of opera, listening to several hours of an opera without having any sort of direction or dramatic form to attach it to would be a tedious chore I'm afraid.

But I guess in a way there's a similar issue with movies. I've never had a problem watching foreign films and following along with subtitles and still becoming engrossed in the action, but I've spoken to many people who simply feel reading the subtitles is too much work, or distracts from their ability to watch and enjoy the movie.


----------



## Boston Charlie

There are lots of interesting comments here. Of course, the language barrier (even if you know the language), and the length of many of the greatest operas, are barriers that present challenges even for the most ardent lovers of classical music. Even so, I'd safely assume that just about 99% of all classical music lovers,and many that aren't, like excerpts and suites from opera (what kid doesn't like the Bugs Bunny/Elmer Fudd operas based off Rossini and Wagner?).

While some pointed out the ridiculous factor in opera, I'd say that in opera, as in some other genres of dramatic art, suspension of disbelief is a matter of course. As a big fan of the Star Wars movies (sometimes called "space opera"), it's a given that you can't enjoy the epic if you plan to critique the inconsistencies in the story line, as well as, in what is scientifically possible. 

I've been listening to classical music since I was a teenager, and there are only a handful of operas I've listened to all the way the way through. My favorite is "Boris Godunov" by Mussorgsky and edited by Rimsky-Korsakov.


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## WildThing

Boston Charlie said:


> I've been listening to classical music since I was a teenager, and there are only a handful of operas I've listened to all the way the way through. My favorite is "Boris Godunov" by Mussorgsky and edited by Rimsky-Korsakov.


You should check out the opera with Mussorgsky's original orchestration. It has a rawness to it that RK's slick orchestration smooths over.


----------



## EdwardBast

Boston Charlie said:


> I've been listening to classical music since I was a teenager, and there are only a handful of operas I've listened to all the way the way through. My favorite is "Boris Godunov" by Mussorgsky and edited by Rimsky-Korsakov.


Didn't R-K cut measures from the overture, completely destroying the beautiful asymmetry of Musorgsky's phrasing? Each one of Musorgsky's compatriots in The Five called him an idiot at some point. I wouldn't trust any of them to edit his work.


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## Enthusiast

I love listening to Handel, Mozart, Wagner and Britten operas (and Fidelio). I find it more difficult to enjoy a lot of other operas, including Verdi and Puccini without seeing them. These are areas of classical music that I would like to give more time to.


----------



## Boston Charlie

EdwardBast said:


> Didn't R-K cut measures from the overture, completely destroying the beautiful asymmetry of Musorgsky's phrasing? Each one of Musorgsky's compatriots in The Five called him an idiot at some point. I wouldn't trust any of them to edit his work.


I always wanted to hear Boris in the original; any recommendations?


----------



## Mal

WildThing said:


> Interesting! For me it's the exact opposite. Following the translation helps me get lost in the music even more as I can follow along with how the music relates to what's being sung. It's the same when listening to a lieder or a mass, or a symphony by Mahler. It only enhances my appreciation.


How do you follow the translation and appreciate the music at the same time? Maybe I just can't multi-task.

For it not to be a problem, for me, I would have to know every word being sung and know how each sentence in German/Italian/whatever translates into English *instantly* without thinking about, as if I was bilingual in the language. I'd also have to have no confusion about the plot. Unless these linguistic/dramatic aspects are transparent to me how can I relax and enjoy the music?



> ... a lot of the singing would indeed sound like random bellowing if you had no idea what was going on.


My Naxos magic flute has a detailed track by track synopsis so I know what is going on, but a lot of the singing still sounds like random warbling (not bellowing!) I have to know *exactly* what they are singing.



> But I guess in a way there's a similar issue with movies. I've never had a problem watching foreign films and following along with subtitles and still becoming engrossed in the action, but I've spoken to many people who simply feel reading the subtitles is too much work, or distracts from their ability to watch and enjoy the movie.


I'm fine with foreign movies. But opera has this extra level of the words being tied to the music, I feel that to really get the music I need to know (word-by-word) exactly what is being sung otherwise I'm not really "getting it". OK much of the music in operas is wonderful but I'm left consistently dissatisfied by not being able to tie words to music transparently. (I know the experts here will say, hit the books! Learn the language! Do some hard study! They are right...)


----------



## hpowders

I like opera but classical music is overwhelmingly, my passion.

Funny story. I took my wife to see an opera-I think it was Don Giovanni, if I remember correctly- and I asked her how she liked it. She said "It would be better without all the singing." *ll:*Perhaps she had a point.*:ll * Perhaps she had a point.

"Too many notes my dear Mozart; too many notes!" :lol:


----------



## Boston Charlie

Mal said:


> How do you follow the translation and appreciate the music at the same time? Maybe I just can't multi-task...For it not to be a problem, for me, I would have to know every word being sung and know how each sentence in German/Italian/whatever translates into English *instantly* without thinking about, as if I was bilingual in the language. I'd also have to have no confusion about the plot. Unless these linguistic/dramatic aspects are transparent to me how can I relax and enjoy the music?...(I know the experts here will say, hit the books! Learn the language! Do some hard study! They are right...)


I have a friend who's an opera fan, and in my view classical music lovers and opera lovers nearly qualify as two distinct categories. While most everyone likes at least some aspect of classical music, be it "pops" or "light classics", a much smaller section of the population listens to a steady diet of symphonies, concertos, tone poems and so forth; of them, there's an even smaller, even more elite group, than enjoys opera.

Anyway, my opera friend told me to start by listening, get the sound of the composer and the language in your ear. Later on, in a third or fourth hearing, you can explore the libretto. He also suggested chunking. Take it step by step, one act at a time, or maybe the more popular or accessible sections first. My friend is a big Wagner fan, and he said that he was at a recording of Die Meistersinger and a family was sitting near him and they were completely mystified and bored. My friend said that he suggested to them they go across the street to the restaurant, enjoy some hamburgers or pizza and then come back for just the final act, which they did.

There's nothing wrong with chunking, taking a difficult piece one section at a time, and it doesn't even have to be in a particular order.

As for the language barrier, no it's not necessary to learn a whole language just to enjoy opera, and even in foreign movies and books which are translated into English, you always lose something in the translation. I love my books of German and Chinese poetry, and for a while was quite taken with Russian novels by Tolstoy and such; but I'm also aware that I only know such works _in translation_, and that's also true for song and opera; you never get all the nuances unless you know the language. On the plus side, I do guarantee that by way of opera you will be able to impress your friends with more knowledge of words and expressions in Italian, German and Russian, than most of them will ever know, just because you've had learned it by way of the latent learning that goes on just by living with opera.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Boston Charlie said:


> I always wanted to hear Boris in the original; any recommendations?


As far as I know there is only one recording of the original (1869) that is purely as Mussorgsky wrote it. It comes in a set that includes the later version (1872) but also pure, where as most 1872 sets are a mix of both 1869 and 1872. I actually keep the pure 1869 version on my player and then include the Polish scenes from the 1872 as a separate folder because they are quite good. I like the 1869 St Basil scene with the holy fool much better than the 1872 Kromy Forest scene with the holy fool. Many sets include both (as I noted). Here is THE set to own for Boris Godunov. This is 5 CDs ( Beware the 1872-only set looks similar):


----------



## MarkW

No. .


----------



## EdwardBast

Boston Charlie said:


> I always wanted to hear Boris in the original; any recommendations?


Fritz has it covered. ^ ^ ^

Yeah, as he says, the St. Basil scene is great!


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## hpowders

Fritz Kobus said:


> As far as I know there is only one recording of the original (1869) that is purely as Mussorgsky wrote it. It comes in a set that includes the later version (1872) but also pure, where as most 1872 sets are a mix of both 1869 and 1872. I actually keep the pure 1869 version on my player and then include the Polish scenes from the 1872 as a separate folder because they are quite good. I like the 1869 St Basil scene with the holy fool much better than the 1872 Kromy Forest scene with the holy fool. Many sets include both (as I noted). Here is THE set to own for Boris Godunov. This is 5 CDs ( Beware the 1872-only set looks similar):


Wasn't the Abbado recording based on Moussorgsky's original?


----------



## SixFootScowl

janxharris said:


> Do you know her reaction to this:
> 
> Henryk Górecki - Symphony No.3 - II ''Lento e Largo'' Tranquillissimo - The London Sinfonietta: David Zinman, Dawn Upshaw.
> 
> It works for me - though, of course, it's not opera.


Naaah! She doesn't like any music. She is the Mikey of music, but at least Mikey finally found something he likes..


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## St Matthew

Most opera is a headache and is unforgivably cringey. Opera is truly the black sheep of Classical Music, except for those rare flukes when it is actually amazing (which is 1 in 100)


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## St Matthew

I also don't see much future in opera for contemporary classical composers, except for as a nostalgic gimmick.


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## Agamemnon

St Matthew said:


> I also don't see much future in opera for contemporary classical composers, except for as a nostalgic gimmick.


Interesting. I think opera is the future of music. Or more precisely: opera is the predecessor of the future and could therefore come back with a vengeance. The future could be immersion in virtual realities like in movies and games which perhaps all started with opera as opera seems to be the first total experience (which Wagner called Gesamtkunstwerk) as it stimulates all senses at once: ears (music), eyes (visuals) and mind (the story). Opera brings all art forms together thus can do everything what art can do and is entitled to be called the ultimate and greatest art form.


----------



## Guest

> Opera is dominated by plot and dialogue. The music is subservient to that. That's why I'm not into it.


I'm not sure that 'subservient' is quite right, since it suggests some degree of 'inferiority', both within the opera itself and generically, music for opera being inferior to abstract music.

"Subordinate" might be more accurate and less disparaging, though I expect the defenders of opera would say that "plot and dialogue" are in an equal, symbiotic relationship with the music. Furthermore, they might say that to reduce opera to just "plot and dialogue" is to miss the richness and significance of 'story'.


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## janxharris

Agamemnon said:


> Interesting. I think opera is the future of music. Or more precisely: opera is the predecessor of the future and could therefore come back with a vengeance. The future could be immersion in virtual realities like in movies and games which perhaps all started with opera as opera seems to be the first total experience (which Wagner called Gesamtkunstwerk) as it stimulates all senses at once: ears (music), eyes (visuals) and mind (the story). Opera brings all art forms together thus can do everything what art can do and is entitled to be called the ultimate and greatest art form.


Would you say that opera is thriving today? There is a lot of talk about classical music struggling, which is sad.


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## Agamemnon

janxharris said:


> Would you say that opera is thriving today? There is a lot of talk about classical music struggling, which is sad.


I don't know. Maybe it is (I hear that in Italy all operas are always sold out) but at the same time I wonder whether people nowadays go to the movies for the same reasons people went to the opera in the 19th century so that opera could be surpassed.


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## St Matthew

Agamemnon said:


> Interesting. I think opera is the future of music. Or more precisely: opera is the predecessor of the future and could therefore come back with a vengeance. The future could be immersion in virtual realities like in movies and games which perhaps all started with opera as opera seems to be the first total experience (which Wagner called Gesamtkunstwerk) as it stimulates all senses at once: ears (music), eyes (visuals) and mind (the story). Opera brings all art forms together thus can do everything what art can do and is entitled to be called the ultimate and greatest art form.


I don't see it.

Movies and visuals are obvious but opera, theater doesn't seem like a likelihood whatsoever - heck, even real physical theatre itself only fits a small niche (even mainstream musicals tend to fit in this category, with a few minor exceptions).

If anything VR leans more towards actually experiencing the events of an opera, than the opera itself. A character gets stabbed in the shining-hit aria? well forget about the aria, you can now experience it in first person.


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## St Matthew

Agamemnon said:


> I don't know. Maybe it is (I hear that in Italy all operas are always sold out) but at the same time I wonder whether people nowadays go to the movies for the same reasons people went to the opera in the 19th century so that opera could be surpassed.


Where music/theatre is concerned, I say yes. Sadly, this is also the case for books too 

But mainstream film/movies are suffering from the same problem you expect with commercialism and monetary investment - lack of funding for more experimental films. So even in that, you get a narrow margin of creativity over time - at the same time as the technology is improving more and more.


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## WildThing

Mal said:


> How do you follow the translation and appreciate the music at the same time? Maybe I just can't multi-task.
> 
> For it not to be a problem, for me, I would have to know every word being sung and know how each sentence in German/Italian/whatever translates into English *instantly* without thinking about, as if I was bilingual in the language. I'd also have to have no confusion about the plot. Unless these linguistic/dramatic aspects are transparent to me how can I relax and enjoy the music?
> 
> My Naxos magic flute has a detailed track by track synopsis so I know what is going on, but a lot of the singing still sounds like random warbling (not bellowing!) I have to know *exactly* what they are singing.
> 
> I'm fine with foreign movies. But opera has this extra level of the words being tied to the music, I feel that to really get the music I need to know (word-by-word) exactly what is being sung otherwise I'm not really "getting it". OK much of the music in operas is wonderful but I'm left consistently dissatisfied by not being able to tie words to music transparently. (I know the experts here will say, hit the books! Learn the language! Do some hard study! They are right...)


Hmmm. I have to admit, I don't usually know the translation of _each_ word being sung, and don't generally worry about it. That being said I have found that after spending so much time listening to vocal music in German, French, and Italian, I'm pretty good at picking out words and knowing their meaning. (Russian is a little more difficult since it's in Cyrillic). As long as I have the libretto with the line in Italian on one side, and the translation in English on the other, I find it easy enough to understand what is happening as I'm following along with the text. In other words, I don't translate word by word, but more like line by line, and usually there's a rhythmic and melodic flow to the music that's easy to follow along with and makes it easy enough to follow along with the English translation almost exclusively and I only have to glance at the original language periodically to keep my place. I suppose another option would be to watch opera dvds with subtitles, that way you can read what they are saying as you are listening.

However, I don't really find it anymore difficult to listen to an opera and follow along with the action than I do to watch a foreign film and follow along with the action, so I guess we might just be approaching things differently. To me I don't feel like I'm missing something by reading to the text and not giving my full concentration to the music. Being that the music is tied to the text as you said, a large part of the expressive power of the music in an opera for me comes in knowing what it is expressing dramatically. That isn't to say it isn't quite beautiful and possible to appreciate it purely as music, of course.


----------



## SixFootScowl

hpowders said:


> Wasn't the Abbado recording based on Moussorgsky's original?


You are right. There is an Abbado set of the 1872 version. I can't determine if he stuck strictly to 1872 or mixed in part of 1869.


----------



## Woodduck

MacLeod said:


> I'm not sure that 'subservient' is quite right, since it suggests some degree of 'inferiority', both within the opera itself and generically, music for opera being inferior to abstract music.
> 
> "Subordinate" might be more accurate and less disparaging, though I expect the defenders of opera would say that "plot and dialogue" are in an equal, symbiotic relationship with the music. Furthermore, they might say that to reduce opera to just "plot and dialogue" is to miss the richness and significance of 'story'.


I'd go farther than that. Opera is primarily a musical creation; music is its primary means of expression. The relation of music to story, text and theatrical production varies depending on the style of opera - a Baroque opera is quite different from a Wagnerian music drama - but music is not an art that's easily subordinated to other concerns, and the attempt usually produces inferior music.

Wagner, as he tells us in _Oper und Drama,_ set out to create works in which all the arts were equal and music was to follow closely the words and action. It didn't take him long to realize that music needed its freedom to say all it could say, and between the quasi-recitative style and simple leitmotiv structure of _Das Rheingold_ and the lyrically expansive opening scene of _Die Walkure_, the first battle of a revolution takes place, whose culmination is the apotheosis of drama AS music, _Tristan und Isolde_. In that work, which Wagner called "deeds of music made visible," the action has been reduced to its essential minimum so that music can tell us the secrets only it can reveal.

There's good reason for identifying an opera by the name of its composer, while its librettist may or may not be remembered.


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## hpowders

Most classical music lovers? They don't like opera. They don't like Mahler, Bruckner, Bartok, Prokofiev, Wagner, Schoenberg, Berg and Ives.

Shovel them lots and lots of Beethoven and Brahms exclusively.

And they wonder why classical music is dying. 

Sad.


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## ClassicalListener

I didn't enjoy opera and shunned it for a long time. Lately however I've been rediscovering it. Now the issue is obtaining those old-style CD releases with printed librettos.


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## eugeneonagain

I don't think I will ever be able to just 'listen' to opera, on a CD or LP. That probably makes sense because listening to ballet music and watching a ballet are also two different things.

I've decided to take a different approach and have started watching DVD recordings of operas, but the fact remains that I have a barrier and really don't like listening to classical singing very much. There are bits and pieces, but mostly I find it gets in the way of good music.

I'm a cultural barbarian.


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## Jacck

I like opera but perceive it as difficult, because you need to follow both the music and the dialogues/story. It is doubly difficult if it is in a foreign language. I have so far concentrated only on operas in languages that I can speak (Czech, German, English) and avoided Italian and French operas. Another difficulty is the length. Some operas can be 4 hours in length and who can concentrate for 4 hours on singing in a foreign language? But I still think that operas are a worthwhile time investment.


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## SixFootScowl

Really need to watch opera on DVD with subtitles, or go to a live performance. Once you become familiar with the work that way, then CDs are nice to listen to because you can somewhat follow along in your mind recalling the DVD production.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Jacck said:


> Some operas can be 4 hours in length and who can concentrate for 4 hours on singing in a foreign language? But I still think that operas are a worthwhile time investment.


I agree, and I'd add that one of the great attractions of opera for me is that I can immerse myself in another language for hours on end. I love English-language opera, too, but "foreign" language ones give me the extra frisson of being transported into another world.


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## ClassicalListener

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I agree, and I'd add that one of the great attractions of opera for me is that I can immerse myself in another language for hours on end. I love English-language opera, too, but "foreign" language ones give me the extra frisson of being transported into another world.


Foreign languages are part of the thrill. In the past, the well-bred, upper-class individuals that made up the audience for opera were more apt to know the languages of European culture, French, German, English, Italian, Spanish, Latin and Greek. I have these plus Russian, so for me it adds to the enjoyment.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

ClassicalListener said:


> Foreign languages are part of the thrill.


I agree.


> In the past, the well-bred, upper-class individuals that made up the audience for opera were more apt to know the languages of European culture


Happily, things have changed. I grew up in a working-class family, but became an avid opera-lover, and opera-goer, in my teens, and had the opportunity to become fluent in French and German. I only studied French at school, but learned German through my love of Wagner and Schubert, first as a listener and later as a singer. In the same way, opera has given me enough Italian to get by. _Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür_, indeed!


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## Mal

Might Chandos "Opera in English" be a "reasonable" solution for the monoglot music lover? I just ordered Chandos' The Magic Flute. Crucially it contains the (English) libretto; necessary because you often can't make out the words being sung.


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## Flamme

I wish i could like it more but i am prone more to instrumental music and some high pitch voices in opera performance really hurt my ears...I wish i was more into it, but im kinda lazy and dont have someone who would guide me, step by step into that world.


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## SixFootScowl

Flamme said:


> I wish i could like it more but i am prone more to instrumental music and some high pitch voices in opera performance really hurt my ears...I wish i was more into it, but im kinda lazy and dont have someone who would guide me, step by step into that world.


I think you can avoid much of the high pitched voices by listening to Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov. Best you get a DVD and turn on the subtitles so you can follow it. That is my favorite way to do opera. My DVD recommendation:


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## BiscuityBoyle

For me the divide is real, though can be crossed. The vast majority of the operas I've enjoyed were by composers I already loved for their instrumental music (Mozart, Mussorgsky, Debussy, Prokofiev, Stravinsky and Ligeti) and was immersed into their respective worlds. Berg would be the exception since I love the two operas more than anything else he wrote. I also made a special effort to get into Wagner, which I felt I had to due to his importance in the history of music, and it's been very rewarding.

I don't like the idea of knowing in advance what you like, as opposed to approaching art with an open mind, but when an opera sounds like this, I'm effing in:






Having said all that, I probably can compile a CD of standalone Italian arias I love. The likes of O Mio Babbino Caro or Si, Mi chiamano Mimi are really beautiful whether you like the genre or not.



ClassicalListener said:


> the languages of European culture, French, German, English, Italian, Spanish, Latin and Greek. I have these plus Russian


Неужели вы владеете в известной степени всеми перечисленными? В таком случае идет речь уже не о воспитании или образовании а о лингвистической одарённости. А где вы выучили великий и могучий, если не секрет?


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## eugeneonagain

Has that bald-headed, squatting man been photoshopped into that picture or is he supposed to be there?


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## BiscuityBoyle

eugeneonagain said:


> Has that bald-headed, squatting man been photoshopped into that picture or is he supposed to be there?


It's a YT video, you can click on it and see for yourself (plus be treated to 3 minutes of vintage Prokofiev)!

But yes, it's a conceit by the director, making the demons in Renata's head materialize, if you will. It's a remarkable production (by the Mariinsky theatre in the early 1990s, conducted by Gergiev), one of my favorites of any opera ever.


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## Mal

eugeneonagain said:


> Has that bald-headed, squatting man been photoshopped into that picture or is he supposed to be there?


He's just stolen the costume from a nymph in the next valley and is trying to hide:






By the way _Acis and Galatea_ is meant to start with a chorus of nymphs and shepherds, not nymphs and some male-nymphs dancing around in costumes out of Space 1999. Couldn't make out a word the singers were singing, though, so maybe they needed the dancing to keep people entertained.

If they go to so much trouble getting the instruments of the correct period, why can't they make an equal effort to keep costumes and staging consistent with the original, period, synopsis?

Not all bad, the OAE were sounding great in the overture. But I had to give up after five minutes, plus ça change.


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## laurie

hpowders said:


> Funny story. I took my wife to see an opera-I think it was Don Giovanni, if I remember correctly- and I asked her how she liked it.* She said "It would be better without all the singing...*


Perhaps she would enjoy _this _album .... * Opera Without Words *








:tiphat:


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## Guest

Mal said:


>


Now there's something I wish I could unsee. Dear god.


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## SixFootScowl

laurie said:


> Perhaps she would enjoy _this _album .... * Opera Without Words *
> 
> View attachment 103031
> 
> :tiphat:


She might like to do that to the singer's mouths at the operas I attend.

Actually, she would often like to do that to my mouth and I don't even sing! :lol:


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## SixFootScowl

Barelytenor said:


> For me, I would say that it was opera that drew me into classical music (and here I mean, "classical music without singing") rather than the other way around -- but perhaps my experience is atypical
> 
> How about you?
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> George


I went from orchestral, to choral works, then to opera. Opera is my favorite!

What drew me to opera was my obsession with Beethoven. So eventually I played his one opera. Then one day I thought it would be nice to actually watch the opera with subtitles, so bought a copy of Fidelio on DVD (Bernstein). That was late 2014 and when I watched that DVD, boom! I was hooked and have been obsessed with opera ever since.


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## Enthusiast

Opera generally needs time. I suspect that many of those classical fans who don't like opera are people who (through no fault of their own) are in a hurry. Then there are those strange people who dislike the greatest instrument of them all - the voices of great singers.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Like many CM enthusiasts, I did not like opera (actually, classical singing in general) when I first started listening simply because I wasn't used to the style of singing. But once I realized the stupendous artistry deployed by great singers and the high dramatic art form that opera is, I was hooked. The first complete opera I listened to was the classic Callas/de Sabata _Tosca_, and I was simply blown away by the passion in the singing and conducting. Since then I have discovered that I generally prefer operas with "literary" libretti and/or those whose music is so great it sweeps away concerns about the plot. For example, I can't get into most bel canto, verismo, and Baroque opera (with some exceptions) because not only is the music often repetitive, I find the plots to be contrived. I tried listening to _Tales of Hoffmann_ the other day and just couldn't get past the ridiculous stuff I had to accept in order to enjoy it. But when I get into a great epic of human nature like the Ring, _Don Carlo_, _Boris Godunov_, _Eugene Onegin_, or _Don Giovanni_; or such innovative dramatic masterpieces as _Salome,_ _Turandot_ or _Bluebeard's Castle_, I think that opera is the greatest Western art form.


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## Neo Romanza

I can't speak for any other listener but myself, but I will say that there are many operas that I absolutely adore, but it isn't a medium that I'd ever call a favorite. My favorite operas like _Pelléas et Mélisande_, _Bluebeard's Castle_, _L'enfant et les sortilèges_, _Der Rosenkavalier_, _King Roger_, _Wozzeck_, _Káťa Kabanová_, _Parsifal_ et. al. all manage to transcend the genre and turn it into something unique.


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## Enthusiast

^ And Mozart? And Verdi? And Wagner? And, indeed, Britten? Did they not make (their) operas truly unique? Those four are perhaps the four giants on opera composing so maybe they are the ones that led to your seeking something else, something unique?


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## Pat Fairlea

I'm not a great fan of opera, to be honest. Now and then, Mrs Pat and I catch a live performance. An entertaining Cunning Little Vixen we saw in Cardiff many years ago has stayed with me, and I was quite stunned by Opera North's production of Britten's Gloriana. Absolutely superb. Generally, though, it's memorable performances of arias and extracts that appeal to me.


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## Neo Romanza

Enthusiast said:


> ^ And Mozart? And Verdi? And Wagner? And, indeed, Britten? Did they not make (their) operas truly unique? Those four are perhaps the four giants on opera composing so maybe they are the ones that led to your seeking something else, something unique?


I mentioned Wagner's _Parsifal_.  Oh and the operas I mentioned are _my_ favorites. I like a few of Britten's (namely _Death in Venice_ and _Turn of the Screw_). I don't care for Mozart or Verdi.


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## Kreisler jr

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Like many CM enthusiasts, I did not like opera (actually, classical singing in general) when I first started listening simply because I wasn't used to the style of singing.


I think this is an important factor since several decades. Almost everyone in the western world has grown up with "microphone crooning" since the 1950s or so.
As for the question in the title, I do not think that most lovers of classical music do not like opera. There is, however, some sorting into opera lovers who love opera much more than most other music (and they tend to congregate in separate fora or subfora) and those who prefer non-operatic classical music. But I think the subgroup who doesn't like opera at all is rather small.



> I can't get into most bel canto, verismo, and Baroque opera (with some exceptions) because not only is the music often repetitive, I find the plots to be contrived. I tried listening to _Tales of Hoffmann_ the other day and just couldn't get past the ridiculous stuff I had to accept in order to enjoy it.


To be fair, Les contes d'Hoffmann does not belong to any of the three categories you mentioned before  and it is almost post-modern besides maybe also ridiculous.
I like opera but I don't like it so much on recordings and I am too lazy/too poor to attend it frequently in the theatre, so I don't listen a lot to opera in the last years. And there are lots of operas I don't much care for and some opera fans (especially those obsessed with singers) are a bit ridiculous, so I would also understand people not being keen on some typical online opera discussions, despite liking the art form.


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## Captainnumber36

I enjoy opera. Especially Mozarts!


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## BlackAdderLXX

Hopefully this isn't kicking the anthill, but I consider opera and vocal music a sub category of classical music. I'm not particularly a fan of vocal music as the style is difficult for me to enjoy. I've been a musician for my entire adult life so to me the skill required is immediately evident, but the stylistic conventions are difficult for me to enjoy. That said, I don't like *not liking* things, so I try things to expand my horizons. In the past year I've made some progress in that I've found a few choral works I now enjoy listening to, and I find myself enjoying the final movement of Mahler 4 which would never have flown in the past. 

In the past year I bought some DVDs of Mozart's operas and have been chipping away at them. I now can say that I enjoy the Magic Flute and just yesterday watched the first act if Don Giovanni for the first time ever. So while I don't consider myself a fan of opera, I may one day at least be able to enjoy it from time to time.


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## Sid James

I've never been a regular listener of opera. Leider or art song is in a similar category for me. I do enjoy choral music with operatic soloists. The bulk of my classical listening is orchestral, chamber and solo piano. Although I prefer instrumental, I also listen to a fair amount of music with vocals in old jazz, rock and pop.

With regards to the question "Do most listeners of classical music not like opera?" my answer is a probable yes. Critic Robert Thicknesse has written extensively about this issue:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/may/27/falling-out-of-love-opera

This attracted some discussion at the time:

_The boss of one of the major Parisian opera houses told me the opera houses in Paris cater to the same 50,000 people year in, year out: that's 2% of the population of inner Paris, and a mere 0.5% of the urban region of Paris. _

Incidentally, Thicknesse is a devotee of opera, but has criticised the funding models associated with it.


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## 4chamberedklavier

I find it difficult to get into opera (or even art songs or cantatas. although choirs are easier for me) because it seems like they're singing out of tune in most almost every recording I find. Maybe not super out of tune, but a quarter tone away


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## Ludwig Schon

I enjoy very little opera, as it’s all about the music for me, but have seen numerous productions of the following:

1. Parsifal
2. Meistersingers
3. Gotterdammerung
4. Tristan
5. Wozzeck

What brings me back to the above is that the ROH generally put on a production of them all every 3-5 years, and the narrative storylines are so strong, which makes the acting, however wooden, at least bearable.

I do love listening to Boulez’ definitive version of Berg’s Lulu, as my moniker would already have indicated, and Lintu’s recent recording of Zimmermann’s Die Soldaten.


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## SanAntone

Just as there are composers who devoted their entire career to opera, there is an opera audience which may not devote much time to other Classical music. But this does not account for everybody. My guess is that most Classical music listeners have given some attention to opera, if for no other reason than some of the greatest composers and music are found in opera. Think Wagner, Verdi, and Mozart.

So I'd have to say that I think it is probably not true that "most" Classical music listeners don't like opera. But their interest may only extend to a few works or one or two composers.


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## Ethereality

We also made a poll last year that seems like 16% said their_ favorite_ genre is opera or incidental. It's pretty consistently my favorite genre of music.



BlackAdderLXX said:


> That said, I don't like *not liking* things, so I try things to expand my horizons.


I like liking things, but I wouldn't base my expansion on genres that are recommended, like opera. I have no problem for example ignoring Haydn or Schubert despite everyone saying I shouldn't. It's more important to broadly explore the unique works and styles that might interest you more, even just out of intellectual curiosity.


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## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> Just as there are composers who devoted their entire career to opera, there is an opera audience which may not devote much time to other Classical music. But this does not account for everybody. My guess is that most Classical music listeners have given some attention to opera, if for no other reason than some of the greatest composers and music are found in opera. Think Wagner, Verdi, and Mozart.
> 
> So I'd have to say that I think it is probably not true that "most" Classical music listeners don't like opera. But their interest may only extend to a few works or one or two composers.


There are lots of reasons not to like opera:

1. It is expensive and snobby
2. It all turns around a star system (this is my biggest beef with opera, I hate the star system.)
3. It is vocal, and people react strongly to voice - I think voices and violins are the two most divisive things in classical music 
4. It is theatrical, and the setting can be a problem. I've seen Fidelio on stilts, gay S&M porn in the auto da fe scene in Don Carlos, Siegfried and Gunther sharing a needle, the Drum Major sodomising Marie in front of her child (Wozzek), and others which I prefer to forget


----------



## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> There are lots of reasons not to like opera:
> 
> 1. It is expensive and snobby
> 2. It all turns around a star system (this is my biggest beef with opera, I hate the star system.)
> 3. It is vocal, and people react strongly to voice - I think voices and violins are the two most divisive things in classical music
> 4. It is theatrical, and the setting can be a problem. I've seen Fidelio on stilts, gay S&M porn in the auto da fe scene in Don Carlos, Siegfried and Gunther sharing a needle, the Drum Major sodomising Marie in front of her child (Wozzek), and others which I prefer to forget


Maybe those reasons explain your dislike of opera, if in fact you dislike opera. But the items on your list are the very reasons I find opera very interesting:

Vocal music of all kinds is my favorite music.

Music drama is my favorite genre, including opera, musical theater, and story/narrative songs.

I ignore the "star-system" and have my own favorite singers.

Buying an opera CD or DVD is not more expensive than buying a multi-CD set.


----------



## BachIsBest

Mandryka said:


> There are lots of reasons not to like opera:
> 
> 1. It is expensive and snobby
> 2. It all turns around a star system (this is my biggest beef with opera, I hate the star system.)
> 3. It is vocal, and people react strongly to voice - I think voices and violins are the two most divisive things in classical music
> 4. It is theatrical, and the setting can be a problem. I've seen Fidelio on stilts, gay S&M porn in the auto da fe scene in Don Carlos, Siegfried and Gunther sharing a needle, the Drum Major sodomising Marie in front of her child (Wozzek), and others which I prefer to forget


It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that of these 1. and 2. all have to do with the structures built around operas, and not the operas themselves. 3. is baffling to me, why would you want art that people don't react strongly to? Finally, 4. seems to be exclusively because some modern directors are, well, errr, to put it kindly, self-important.

I would just watch older productions of operas. The stars are long since dead and no longer marketed, nothing obviously idiotic happens in the theatrics, the singing is almost always better, and such DVD's are available cheaply.


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## Kreisler jr

Mandryka said:


> There are lots of reasons not to like opera:
> 1. It is expensive and snobby
> 2. It all turns around a star system (this is my biggest beef with opera, I hate the star system.)


Both of this applies to a lot of music and to most non-operatic classical music, insofar it applies at all. (It's doubtful to which extent it applies to the provincial/small operas all over Germany and Austria which is usually cheaper than popular music star concerts or modern musicals). And we know that opera is ridiculous since the Marx brothers and similar jokes but it apparently didn't hurt that much until the late 20th century.



> 3. It is vocal, and people react strongly to voice - I think voices and violins are the two most divisive things in classical music


Yes. This should work both ways because many people who have grown up with popular music are also puzzled by purely instrumental music but as I wrote above, we have now almost 3 generations who think that crooning into a microphone is "natural singing" and therefore can have problems with classical singing styles/voices.



> 4. It is theatrical, and the setting can be a problem. I've seen Fidelio on stilts, gay S&M porn in the auto da fe scene in Don Carlos, Siegfried and Gunther sharing a needle, the Drum Major sodomising Marie in front of her child (Wozzek), and others which I prefer to forget


This can be a problem but I think these are aspects of final decadence that came only after an earlier decline of opera. (Opera clearly has been declining for about 100 years but that's similar with the rest of classical music so it also should not be the main point.) Again, some people apparently think they can draw a new or different audience this way but that's doubtful as it is largely an in-crowd who appreciate such stagings (predictably "provocative"/controversial" but not for that crowd).


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## SearsPoncho

I like opera, or at least the music that comes with opera, but the problem I have is the practical issue of time management. I've always wanted to ask Wagner fans one question: where do you have the time? I had several bleeding chunks discs before I finally took the plunge and bought the acclaimed Furtwangler/Philharmonia (EMI) recording of Tristan. I might break it out once every 1-2 years (that long gap has only increased over the years), and usually have to divide it over 3 days. Furthermore, work and family might not allow for 3 consecutive days of Wagner, which means I'll skip a day or two before I resume listening, the momentum of the music and recording gets lost, and my deteriorating memory does not help matters. In the same amount of time I could listen to a bunch of Beethoven symphonies, Mozart concertos, Brahms chamber works, Stravinsky ballet suites, Scriabin piano sonatas, etc. The cost/benefit analysis does not work in the favor of opera. To be candid, I might find a good performance of the Prelude and Liebestod more powerful than listening to Tristan in its entirety, if I had the time, because I can listen to it all without interruption and the flow of the music does not get lost. 

In addition, operas are theater pieces, which opens up a whole can of worms re: how much of this music really holds up on its own if separated from the theatrical and visual elements. Anyhow, I do like opera, but at my age I'm starting to realize that there's only so much music I'll be able to listen to and really get to know well. I can't hear it all, and I have to make choices.


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## Art Rock

SearsPoncho said:


> I've always wanted to ask Wagner fans one question: where do you have the time?


*listening to Siegfried right now, the first two operas the past two days and Götterdämmerung tomorrow*

Being retired helps.


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## Chibi Ubu

Actually, it would help me a lot if I understood the languages (Italian, German, French, etc), perhaps I could find a way for opera to reach me. English opera is good, Gilbert & Sullivan is pleasing to my ear. It's in my English frame of reference. I am not a good judge of operatic emotion, and that is acquired over time.

Simply said, I guess it's all Greek to me! <smiles>


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## Kreisler jr

Wagner is a bit of an extreme case. But if you are single or a young childless couple or an elderly couple, it doesn't matter so much if on Friday or Saturday night you go to the movies, clubbing or to the opera. Opera does not necessarily take up more time. IF and only if you have the opera in your city or in a similar distance you would also drive/travel for cinema or other entertainment. Even with a family this can work with a babysitter. This is the way it used to me in many European cities, even some middle-sized towns. Of course, this changes, if opera necessitates an expensive weekend trip because it is too far away.


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> Both of this applies to a lot of music and to most non-operatic classical music, insofar it applies at all. (It's doubtful to which extent it applies to the provincial/small operas all over Germany and Austria which is usually cheaper than popular music star concerts or modern musicals). And we know that opera is ridiculous since the Marx brothers and similar jokes but it apparently didn't hurt that much until the late 20th century.
> 
> .


Yes there is a cultural element in this which I haven't explored. I think in Fellini's La Strada there's a scene where they go into a small time bar full of peasants and everyone's singing arias as they drink their grappa.


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> Yes. This should work both ways because many people who have grown up with popular music are also puzzled by purely instrumental music but as I wrote above, we have now almost 3 generations who think that crooning into a microphone is "natural singing" and therefore can have problems with classical singing styles/voices.


Yes it's a strange thing and I don't understand it. I've just noticed that voice is divisive, a voice I love someone else can hate and there's no obvious reason for the responses.


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> This can be a problem but I think these are aspects of final decadence that came only after an earlier decline of opera. (Opera clearly has been declining for about 100 years but that's similar with the rest of classical music so it also should not be the main point.) Again, some people apparently think they can draw a new or different audience this way but that's doubtful as it is largely an in-crowd who appreciate such stagings (predictably "provocative"/controversial" but not for that crowd).


It is true that some sorts of staging gets bums on seats -- especially gay staging. We saw this recently in London with a production of Birtwistle's Mask of Orpheus, and I guess the Don Carlos I mentioned had the same effect in Berlin. To what extent a straight (sexually) production is a route to commercial success is not obvious to me -- my feeling is that no, it isn't.


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## GMB

For me Classical music is MUSIC not singing or song, which I had in my pop days. I want pure music without words or the human voice.
Music is psychological to me in affect, without words to help or guide me. But still the music makes sense ie tonal music.
I have some vocal music, but only from favourite composers, and very little opera.
Pure music has a very powerful affect on me, very different from the great writers and poets I grew up with ie Literature.
I think wordy people like myself may be more moved by pure music than those who are musical themselves and take it for granted.
As for opera itself, it is only music theatre ,and I am not a fan of theatre. I prefer documentaries to fictionalised drama, which is often very improbable or one-sided.
Music for me is just that-MUSIC!
If you want song, choral or opera that is a different world.
The best music I have found is Classical Music, and I speak as an outsider!


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## Ludwig Schon

Chibi Ubu said:


> Actually, it would help me a lot if I understood the languages (Italian, German, French, etc), perhaps I could find a way for opera to reach me. English opera is good, Gilbert & Sullivan is pleasing to my ear. It's in my English frame of reference. I am not a good judge of operatic emotion, and that is acquired over time.
> 
> Simply said, I guess it's all Greek to me! <smiles>


Completely disagree. If you can understand the words then it detracts from the performance for me and turns the human voice from an instrument into a source of ridicule.

I remember many moons ago, my first and only time attending the ENO to hear Wagner. It took me until the middle of A1S1 of Parsifal to realise they were singing in English (oddly enough, they still used surtitles). I could not take the performance seriously after that, and left after the interval. It was like watching a Monty Python sketch…


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## BachIsBest

GMB said:


> For me Classical music is MUSIC not singing or song, which I had in my pop days. I want pure music without words or the human voice.
> Music is psychological to me in affect, without words to help or guide me. But still the music makes sense ie tonal music.
> I have some vocal music, but only from favourite composers, and very little opera.
> Pure music has a very powerful affect on me, very different from the great writers and poets I grew up with ie Literature.
> I think wordy people like myself may be more moved by pure music than those who are musical themselves and take it for granted.
> As for opera itself, it is only music theatre ,and I am not a fan of theatre. I prefer documentaries to fictionalised drama, which is often very improbable or one-sided.
> Music for me is just that-MUSIC!
> If you want song, choral or opera that is a different world.
> The best music I have found is Classical Music, and I speak as an outsider!


I think this is a big misunderstanding of opera. Opera is music first and foremost and theatre second. Beyond stylistic differences in the music, I would argue this is the key factor distinguishing opera from musical theatre. There is, of course, a theatrical component to opera, but even this is developed by the music; the characters and their nuances, the plot and its emotional subtleties, and even, sometimes, the setting, are elaborated upon by the music and the singing and not the other way around.

Maria Callas, possibly the greatest operatic actress we have film of was once asked how to act in opera. Her response was to simply listen to the music.

Someone else I believe mentioned this earlier in the thread, but this is the reason we credit the composer as having written the opera and not the librettist, as in the case of stage dramas, or the director, as in the case of films.


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## McCall3

I only started listening to classical music seriously about a year and a half ago, and at first I avoided opera because of its reputation as being “difficult”. After diving into Mozart’s instrumental music I eventually gave his operas a chance, and to my delight I immediately loved them. Then Wagner’s operas, then Handel’s, and I’ve loved it all. I plan to listen to Verdi soon as well.

I enjoy watching operas (with subtitles) for the combination of the music and the drama, and I also enjoy just listening to the music (without a libretto). Since I do not speak German or Italian, listening without a libretto essentially allows the operas to be “pure” music, with the voices basically serving as additional instruments. I love being able to enjoy operas in both ways, so I actually only want to follow the meaning of the words when I’m watching an opera, and I do not want to follow the meaning of the words when I’m just listening.


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## Forster

Opera has some great tunes, but I'm not a fan of the style of singing. It's just not my cup of tea.


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## GMB

I've just been listening to Britten's The Turn of The Screw on CD.
What a wonderful and fascinating work that is! And this from someone who doesn't like opera!
The instrumentation is unique and you can hear all the voices clearly, although it helps that they sing in English.It is virtually a chamber opera with only 6 characters and small orchestra.
The version is on Naxos label and features Philip Langridge and Felicity Lott with Stuart Bedford.
Strongly recommended to those who haven't heard it or think they don't like opera! This is exceptional!A masterpiece!


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## Wilhelm Theophilus

My favourite composers are Mozart and Wagner but I have never seen or listened to an opera. Maybe that says something bad about me.


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## Neo Romanza

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> My favourite composers are Mozart and Wagner but I have never seen or listened to an opera. Maybe that says something bad about me.


It actually confuses the hell out of me. How could you be a Wagner fan without having heard his operas? Odd.


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## marlow

Neo Romanza said:


> It actually confuses the hell out of me. How could you be a Wagner fan without having heard his operas? Odd.


Quite easily with both. Mozart wrote a lot of music which is not opera. A lot of Wagner's music is heard in a non-operatic form in the concert hall.


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## Kreisler jr

I was wondering about the same thing: Siegfried Idyll and bleeding chunks? And this is enough for a favorite? 

I am pretty sure I would be much more into opera if I lived in a city like Vienna or Berlin (or even half as good as the opera options are concerned). I did attend opera more often in the past when I had more opportunities but I never had the great opera options of some European large cities. I collected most of the famous operas (and more) on my shelves but I only rarely feel like listening to it nowadays.


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## Waehnen

Just like with the string quartet, I like some operas despite them being operas. I have attended to a few such magnificent opera performances where it absolutely matters not that I by default do not care for opera. Just like there are some so excellent string quartet compositions performed by so great string quartets that it absolutely matters not that the string quartet is not my favourite genre or ensemble.

Whereas I have attended some really bad symphonic and chamber music concerts although instrumental concert music is my favourite genre in the whole wide world.


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## Highwayman

GMB said:


> I've just been listening to Britten's The Turn of The Screw on CD.
> What a wonderful and fascinating work that is! And this from someone who doesn't like opera!
> ...
> Strongly recommended to those who haven't heard it or think they don't like opera! This is exceptional!A masterpiece!


I`ll second this. I like other Britten Operas as well but this one is my favourite probably because of the smaller forces.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus

Neo Romanza said:


> It actually confuses the hell out of me. How could you be a Wagner fan without having heard his operas? Odd.


Sorry maybe I should have said I've never listened to a _whole _opera.


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## PathfinderCS

Only Opera I really listened to all the way through was Akhenaten by Phillip Glass; and that's largely for the Egyptian aesthetic.

Opera has yet to fully grasp me, but tbh I have yet to really get into concertos, solo sonatas, and other types of classical music.


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## mmsbls

I can say that I fell in love with classical music without hearing any operas. When I did start listening to some opera (e.g. arias), I did not enjoy them. For some reason individual voices in classical music did not appeal to me and that included art songs. I'm not sure why things changed, but I spent several years listening to many operas with my daughter and found I loved many of them. Not too long afterwards, I started liking many art songs. So for me, there was something about hearing vocal parts that sounded significantly different than hearing instrumental lines.

I loved Wagner's preludes and overtures, but didn't think of him as a great composer. Eventually I heard his operas and my estimation of him grew enormously to where he's now one of my favorite composers.


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## Mister Meow

When I was a kid growing up, the FM radio would often be tuned to one of the two classical music stations on the weekend. However, when the afternoon opera started, my parents would switch the radio off because they didn't want to listen to the "screaming ladies". I suppose they didn't like the screaming men any better. Recently I've started listening to and enjoying some operas, but only from the Baroque. Who knows, maybe someday I'll like the later operatic style, too.


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## GMB

For me Classical Music is instrumental not vocal, which is song,choral or opera.I have some of these in my CD collection but only by favourite instrumental composers.I think Beethoven's 9th Symphony is ruined by the choral 4th movement! [I expect a lot of criticism here!-good! }


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## Highwayman

GMB said:


> I think Beethoven's 9th Symphony is ruined by the choral 4th movement!


I don`t agree with the first part of your post but this bit is spot on imo.


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## Enthusiast

Highwayman said:


> I`ll second this. I like other Britten Operas as well but this one is my favourite probably because of the smaller forces.


Try Curlew River - small forces, not for the opera house.


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## Kreisler jr

Do you think Mahler's 2,3,4 are also "ruined" by the vocal movements?


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## Highwayman

Kreisler jr said:


> Do you think Mahler's 2,3,4 are also "ruined" by the vocal movements?


I don`t know about GMB but I definitely have no problem with any of Mahler`s vocal movements. My problem is specifically about Beethoven`s vocal writing. I also don`t like _Missa Solemnis_ very much.


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## Monsalvat

I love both but I'm not a trained singer, so I'm less knowledgeable about the human voice than a lot of the folks that spend most time in the opera forum. Recently I've been taking a bit of a break from opera, as well (not a complete break, but a lot less than I used to consume) which probably affects my perception at this moment. I'm a bit unusual, I think, in that I came to opera somewhat knowledgeable about the orchestra but not very knowledgeable about the voice. I've been trying to learn what basics I can but it's still somewhat of a handicap. That said, I'm a novice when compared to the people who frequent that forum, but I still know a decent amount. And I'm always trying to learn more. That's what life is for. I don't see opera and classical music as distinctly "different" things, but they are slightly different art forms, I concede. There's enough overlap that I don't really think about them as different in my own mind.


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## 4chamberedklavier

I take back what I said. I believe I'm starting to like opera too


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## EvaBaron

I don’t really know how I should get into it. It’s just so extremely long, I never have time or crave to listen to something lasting 3 hours


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## Art Rock

EvaBaron said:


> I don’t really know how I should get into it. It’s just so extremely long, I never have time or crave to listen to something lasting 3 hours


Start with a short one like Mascgani's Cavalleria Rusticana, Leoncavallo's Pagliaccii, or one of Puccini's three operas that together are known as Il Trittico. All of these are well-known operas that fit on a CD each.


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## DaveM

You don’t need to start with a whole opera. The various arias, duets, trios and quartets stand alone very well. Even prisoners like it that way:


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## EvaBaron

So I know various overtures and famous aria’s, mainly from Mozart opera’s. For some reason I felt like listening to Stravinsky the rite of spring for the first time ever, so that’s what I’m doing right now (enjoying it a lot) but later I will listen to the operas that Art rock mentioned, do you have any recommended recordings for those operas as well?


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## Eva Yojimbo

EvaBaron said:


> I don’t really know how I should get into it. It’s just so extremely long, I never have time or crave to listen to something lasting 3 hours


Another great, short opera is Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle. I recently had good luck introducing a complete opera (and classical music) neophyte to the film version of that and he loved it. There's also Purcell's Dido & Aeneas for older, baroque opera if you prefer that style.


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## Eva Yojimbo

I love opera, but I do approach it as a different art form distinct from instrumental (or even choral-based) classical music. Opera is the fusion of music and drama, just as fiction films are the fusion of photography, drama, and temporal editing. Such genre fusions innately create their own artistic potential and rewards for those who care to understand and reap them. One can, of course, just listen to opera arias and appreciate the music and singing as one would most songs, but there's a lot of expressive musical-dramatic possibilities inherent in what can be done over the course of several hours, from the ways in which music can ironize or provide insight into psychological states, to its subtle expression of themes created by forging connections between the music and characters/events, to something as grandiose as Wagner's musical leitmotifs telling an immense story-within-a-story over the course of multiple operas.


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## Chibi Ubu

Even though I've loved CM orchestral music since my introduction, I have been resisting opera for many years. From hanging out here at the forum, I've been reflecting on that. It is multi-causal, Culture plays into it, family plays into it, peers play into it, and selective perception is a big factor. My intro and only exposure to opera was on The Ed Sullivan Show & although Ed had great intentions, I was never educated to understand it, appreciate it, and savor it. Beverly Sills was being presented to a 7 year old out of context. My family didn't understand it, & I became a 'sheepling' like everybody else. Ed was selling Elvis Presley at the same time. Then Ed would present some comedy, some circus acts, and some drama. All in the same hour, it was incongruous. 

I know that it is my perception that Europeans on the whole love opera more than us in the USA, though I could be wrong about that. I don't speak Italian, German, or French, so I don't grasp it. I simply do not compute opera because of a language/cultural barrier. Then I recently started here the forum, in order to grow. I have never cared for coconut for 71 years, but my wife bought some excellent coconut/chocolate/walnut/spice cookies. I have been wrong all my life. Perhaps opera is like that. I hope I find out. 🌞


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## SanAntone

You must enjoy the human voice in order to enjoy opera. For me, opera provides many of the things about music, that I love: drama , great orchestral writing, stage acting, and of course singing, so I am a huge fan. I am generally a huge fan of vocal music of any kind, but I am also a huge fan of instrumental Classical music.

So ....

I don't understand a connection that this thread seems to be implying, i.e. one who likes orchestral music, in general, will not enjoy opera. Or that these two kinds of Classical music are mutually exclusive and cannot appeal to the same audiences.

I don't agree.


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## Chibi Ubu

SanAntone said:


> You must enjoy the human voice in order to enjoy opera.


That's spot on... some vocalists reach me, others do not. It must be my subconscious. I've found tears of happiness in a number of female singers, English, Italian, French, and Japanese and in different genres. The vocal music in the soundtrack Amadeus reached out and clubbed me on the head. It was a surprise attack that choked me up, but I don't know why. 

So that means there is always hope? I believe so. 🌞


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## ThaNotoriousNIC

I started my journey in classical music with mostly disdain for opera and refused to listen to it for years. Playing in a pit for an opera soothed by stance against opera but it still took a while before I went into it. I believe my curiosity began to grow for opera as I noticed that a lot of repertoire for French horn comes from opera. Take for instance Siegfried's horn call, Wagner opera overtures like Tannhauser, and various solos such as in Carmen or in Cosi Fan Tutte. As this list of pieces grew, especially for Wagner, I eventually caved in and decided to listen to the Ring Cycle; I haven't been the same since lol.

From that point on, my tastes shifted from primarily classical (Baroque and Romantic in particular) to almost exclusively opera. That is still largely my tastes to this day, but there are certain times of the year that I come back to other forms of music like in the Spring and Summer. For instance, after doing a Rossini binge in March through the end of April, this month I have been revisiting the symphonies of Brahms, Beethoven and Mozart. I have even been building up my playlists of classical era music to expand my knowledge. Last year, I was listening to a lot of Mahler on the side. The only exception to the rule is Bach, which I always have an ear for. 

In my casual participation in this forum, I have seen that there is a little divide between the classical listeners and the opera listeners; however, I think there is a good amount of us opera listeners that still participate from time to time on the rest of the site.


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## golfer72

The human voice is a just another instrument. Witness Mahler Symphonies for example


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## 4chamberedklavier

It certainly helps to think of the human voice as just another instrument. Though I think one barrier to appreciating opera is loudness. Seems to me that voices in recordings are loud enough that the instrumentation becomes less audible.


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