# Let's talk about Beethoven



## Guest (Feb 15, 2013)

I'm hoping for some informed comments on this great, great composer. My love for him grows exponentially year upon year, and our 'relationship' started when I was 18. Having just read Solomon's latest "Beethoven", (2nd/rev.ed, 1998) I came across this comment which profoundly affected me because it tapped into something I've always believed (bearing in mind that LvB had been through a "heroic", second 'period'):

"Above all, although in his last style Beethoven was to become a master of the evanescent mood, he resisted the impending Romantic fragmentation of the architecturally concentrated and controlled cyclic forms of the Classical era into small forms and lyric mood pieces. The breadth of his ideas remained undiminished. Despite the exhaustion of his heroic style, Beethoven was not yet done with the problems of heroism, tragedy and transcendence. *The task he would set himself in his late music would be the portrayal of heroism without heroics, without heroes"*(295).

I absolutely agree with this. When Solomon describes the 'small forms and lyric mood pieces' he seems to be describing LvB's contemporary, Schubert. But that devastatingly accurate last line about 'heroism without heroics' so perfectly describes Beethoven's late works - string quartets, last set of "Diabelli" variations, the "Missa" and not least the last 4 or 5 miraculous piano sonatas - and when I read it I dissolved into tears.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Small forms and lyric mood pieces can also refer to a lot of Schumann, Mendelssohn, Chopin, etc. But Beethoven did remain to the end a master of large scale structures (perhaps bagatelles excepted), and in that respect a "classicist." To the extent that heroism requires large structures, I agree with Solomon, although I think the word that more hits the nail on the head is "transcendence."

Solomon's "Late Beethoven" is also good, as is JWN Sullivan's "Beethoven: His Spiritual Development" and Martin Cooper's "Beethoven: The Last Decade." For a single volume biography to go next to Solomon's, Lewis Lockwood's is good.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

That is a great line! Food for thought indeed...


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## classicool (Mar 24, 2012)

Of all his masterful works, I think the Violin Concerto is one of the most remarkable. From the bold simplicity of the opening 4 quarter notes played on, of all instruments, the timpani (!) to the memorable lyricism inherent in both the violin and the orchestral statements, the work takes on the sensibility of a symphony on a grand scale. It's one of his most underperformed pieces, but below is info on a rare opportunity to hear a masterful rendition of this composition. May you enjoy all your Beethoven listening.

ALL BEETHOVEN!

When:
Feb. 19th, 8pm

Where:
Good Shepherd-Faith Presbyterian Church
152 W. 66th St., New York, NY 10023
(between Broadway & Amsterdam Ave.)
1 train at 66th St.-Lincoln Center

What:
All Beethoven! His monumental Violin Concerto performed by New York's Nova Philharmonic and the legendary Daniel Phillips. Visionary maestro Dong-Hyun Kim also conducts the First Symphony. Phillips has performed and recorded with such legends as Yo-Yo Ma and is a founder of the acclaimed Orion String Quartet, which has residencies at Lincoln Center's Chamber Music Society and has had works written for them by the likes of Wynton Marsalis and Chick Corea. The Nova Philharmonic regularly performs the masterworks of the symphonic repertoire while working with some of classical music's most noteworthy soloists.

Program:
Beethoven Violin Concerto
Beethoven Symphony No. 1

Tickets:
$25, $15 seniors/students

Website:
www.novaphil.blog.me


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2013)

GGluek said:


> Small forms and lyric mood pieces can also refer to a lot of Schumann, Mendelssohn, Chopin, etc. But Beethoven did remain to the end a master of large scale structures (perhaps bagatelles excepted), and in that respect a "classicist." To the extent that heroism requires large structures, I agree with Solomon, although I think the word that more hits the nail on the head is "transcendence."
> 
> Solomon's "Late Beethoven" is also good, as is JWN Sullivan's "Beethoven: His Spiritual Development" and Martin Cooper's "Beethoven: The Last Decade." For a single volume biography to go next to Solomon's, Lewis Lockwood's is good.


Yes, I've read "Late Beethoven: Music, Though, Imagination" and wasn't very impressed with it, to tell truth. The chapter on meter from classical antiquity informing Beethoven was drawing too long a bow, IMO.

And I mentioned Schubert because he was writing those smaller pieces (along with that, later, huge symphony!) in LvB's lifetime.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Beethoven's music always speaks to me because he is one of those rare composers who went through all stages of life and was able to write about them.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Manxfeeder said:


> Beethoven's music always speaks to me because he is one of those rare composers who went through all stages of life and was able to write about them.


Yeah, he wasn't afraid to reveal the bad things as well.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I'm hoping for some informed comments on this great, great composer. My love for him grows exponentially year upon year.


My experience with Beethoven has been the opposite of yours, I was quite enamored of him for a while, but the more I listen, the more I notice elements of his music that are not really to my liking. This is not to say he was a bad composer, but he was certainly not without his weak spots. Many professionals have also pointed out flaws in Beethoven's compositional abilities from time to time. For example Glenn Gould suggested Beethoven's fame was due to reputation only. Debussy and Ravel were certainly not crazy about the music of Beethoven, and Bernstein himself (a great fan of Beethoven) pointed out that Beethoven was actually quite weak in melody, harmony, orchestration and counterpoint. To me Beethoven brings up mixed feelings because I do appreciate elements of his music, but can't say I feel he is the "great, great" composer you and so many others seem to consider him as being. In my mind he was a very good composer, who was innovative and achieved some great works, but I wouldn't put him in the top three of all time as many here would.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

tdc said:


> ...and Bernstein himself (a great fan of Beethoven) pointed out that Beethoven was actually quite weak in melody, harmony, orchestration and counterpoint.


Looking for a source for this. Closest I can find is Bernstein: "Many, many composers have been able to write heavenly tunes and respectable fugues. Some composers can orchestrate the C-major scale so that it sounds like a masterpiece, or fool with notes so that a harmonic novelty is achieved. But this is all mere dust - nothing compared to the magic ingredient sought by them all: the inexplicable ability to know what the next note has to be. Beethoven had this gift in a degree that leaves them all panting in the rear guard. When he really did it - as in the Funeral March of the Eroica - he produced an entity that always seems to me to have been previously written in Heaven, and then merely dictated to him."

Well, that's not _exactly _the same, is it?


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

tdc said:


> ...Gould suggested Beethoven's fame was due to reputation...


. . .and Mr. Gould went on to state that Beethoven's _reputation _was likewise due to his _fame, _which was caused by his _notoriety, _which was of course entirely attributable to his _renown_! Mr. Gould then put down his thesaurus and gave a little talk on circular argumentation. 



tdc said:


> the more I notice _elements of his music_ that are not really to my liking. This is not to say he was a bad composer, but he was certainly  not without his _weak spots._....To me Beethoven brings up mixed feelings because I do appreciate _elements of his music,_ but _can't say I feel he is the "great, great" composer_ you and so many others seem to consider him as being. In my mind he was a very good composer, who was innovative and achieved _some great works,_ but I wouldn't put him in the top three of all time as many here would.


tdc, I'd be interested if you could be more detailed as to your criticisms. I am having a hard time gleaning specifics from this.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> *Looking for a source for this*. Closest I can find is Bernstein: "Many, many composers have been able to write heavenly tunes and respectable fugues. Some composers can orchestrate the C-major scale so that it sounds like a masterpiece, or fool with notes so that a harmonic novelty is achieved. But this is all mere dust - nothing compared to the magic ingredient sought by them all: the inexplicable ability to know what the next note has to be. Beethoven had this gift in a degree that leaves them all panting in the rear guard. When he really did it - as in the Funeral March of the Eroica - he produced an entity that always seems to me to have been previously written in Heaven, and then merely dictated to him."
> 
> Wel that's not _exactly _the same, is it?


Here is the video:






Skip to around 5 minutes or so into it, to get to Bernstein's views of Beethoven's melody, harmony, orchestration and counterpoint.

I know Bernstein was a huge fan of Beethoven, so it is not surprising that he over-looked those faults to suggest Beethoven always 'knew the right next note'. But I feel that is a pretty vague and subjective way of measuring a composer's compositional skill. Its basically saying Beethoven was weak in most areas but because I like his music, he was still the greatest.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

What Gould said: ''Beethoven's reputation is based entirely on gossip. The middle Beethoven represents a supreme example of a composer on an ego trip.'' Glenn was simply giving Igor a run for his money... :lol:


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

The more I encounter Gould's glib and purposefully provocative overstatements, the more I am convinced he was the original internet troll, before there was an internet.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

tdc said:


> Here is the video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks tdc. I suspect Bernstein's written remarks (which I quoted) were reduced by him from this interview. What Bernstein is saying here is that there is no aspect of composition or orchestration at which Beethoven excelled. Actually he suggests that Beethoven was, in any single aspect, pretty pedestrian -- but I think he was getting a bit carried away there, as did he himself upon reflection, evidently.

Like you, I have always been a little dissatisfied with that "always knew what the next note had to be" remark. But it is close to the "inevitability" that many find in Beethoven's works.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

tdc said:


> My experience with Beethoven has been the opposite of yours, I was quite enamored of him for a while, but the more I listen, the more I notice elements of his music that are not really to my liking. This is not to say he was a bad composer, but he was certainly not without his weak spots. Many professionals have also pointed out flaws in Beethoven's compositional abilities from time to time. For example Glenn Gould suggested Beethoven's fame was due to reputation only. Debussy and Ravel were certainly not crazy about the music of Beethoven, and* Bernstein himself (a great fan of Beethoven) pointed out that Beethoven was actually quite weak in melody, harmony, orchestration and counterpoint.* To me Beethoven brings up mixed feelings because I do appreciate elements of his music, but can't say I feel he is the "great, great" composer you and so many others seem to consider him as being. In my mind he was a very good composer, who was innovative and achieved some great works, but I wouldn't put him in the top three of all time as many here would.







Also, academic/theoretic content & Innovation are totally secondary against how the music makes me feel.

I recently did a personality test which was a part of a ebook i just bought and my result was ENFJ, when i did a free test my result was ENTP.
But when i read what both meant i realized that ENFJ is much more accurate.
You might ask what the h*ll does this have to do with my replay?

Well the third letter on Myers-Briggs personality types is either T or F, T= Thinker F= Feeler 
so i think it explains why emotional content of the music is much more important for me than any other aspect of it.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Interesting video, tdc. But I think you've slightly misstated LB's point. That stuff about "the inevitable right next note" is certainly vague as Bernstein phrases it, but it is quite clear to me that he is just elaborating on the main point, which is that Beethoven, though not (in LB's view) a master of orchestral color, fugal counterpoint, melody, or harmony, was nevertheless a master of _form._ (Yes, he criticizes Beethoven's fugues, but fugue is just one form, and not even a particularly fashionable one in the early 1800s.)

Bernstein's repeating a familiar point that Beethoven's skill in _developing a musical idea_ was his great gift as a composer. You know, it's Music Appreciation 101 stuff: Schubert had lyrical genius but was weak at developing a musical idea, and Beethoven was the reverse.

Not saying I myself believe any of this, just explicating Bernstein's point as I understand it.

So I disagree that Bernstein is "over-look[ing] those faults" because of "a pretty vague and subjective" liking for Beethoven. He explicitly praises Beethoven's mastery of _form_, and _form _is a pretty objective component of music. (In fact, form and subjectivity are usually treated as if they are at odds in music---cf. anybody who has ever wrongheadedly complained about the soulless formal perfection of Brahms.)


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Hausmusik said:


> tdc, I'd be interested if you could be more detailed as to your criticisms. I am having a hard time gleaning specifics from this.


Well, I think my views will be easier to shoot down since I am not a 'professional', so that is why I was pointing out that a lot of professionals from the past have these views on Beethoven.

As far as my views I agree with everything Bernstein suggested about Beethoven's melody, harmony, orchestration and counterpoint, but I don't agree with Bernstein that Beethoven 'always knew the right next note'.

I agree with Bernstein that Beethoven's greatest strength was his form. Specifically I think Beethoven's expansion and progression of form was his greatest innovation, and his ability to do a lot of interesting things within that form with his themes.
I also think Beethoven did just have a certain something a 'feel' that is hard to define, he had a certain explosive energy about his music that can be very attractive. I also think I was being overly harsh calling Beethoven not great, but "very good". I do concede he was a great composer, and brilliant in ways.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Thanks tdc. I can certainly understand feeling non-attracted to LvB's music. There are times (they are rare I admit) when I don't much want to listen to anything by Beethoven. And it's not as if he could do no wrong. I am not thinking about obvious potboilers like "Wellington's Victory" but more about sort of middlingly-good works like a great deal of the chamber music (the sextet for winds and strings, most of the cello sonatas, etc.).

And then some of his indisputably great works begin amazingly but then peter out in a weak final movement (the Kreutzer sonata, the Harp quartet, etc.).

Also, there are elements of his music that lend themselves to parody. He even parodied himself: compare finales of the 5th and 8th symphonies.

Have you ever seen Dudley Moore's parody of a Beethoven piano sonata?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Thanks for the video Jani. I watched it all! Kind of sad to see Bernstein get trashed so thoroughly, but...


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Jani, agree with Ken. That was a terrific video.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Hausmusik said:


> Jani, agree with Ken. That was a terrific video.


If you are a composer you should subscribe to his channel, he has loads of great vids.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Hausmusik said:


> Have you ever seen Dudley Moore's parody of a Beethoven piano sonata?


Wow, Mr. Moore is amazing.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

From the Goss video: "Though I love Bernstein's music and public legacy, I don't like blanket statements or careless comments."

Somebody ought to post this video in the "Mozart is overrated" thread!


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I just watched the video posted by Jani too. Some interesting points he makes, but I find he is too sugar-coating, he basically says everything Bernstein said was not only wrong, but the opposite is true. That in my mind is really kind of a fan-boy biased mentality, that is equally as misleading as making blanket statements. 

I'm sure some of Bernstein's comments were exaggerated, but to suggest there is no grounds for any of them, is pretty ridiculous.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

tdc said:


> ...he basically says everything Bernstein said was not only wrong, but the opposite is true. That in my mind is really kind of a fan-boy biased mentality...


Unless, of course, he's right. 

I mean hey, look at my avatar! I'm the one who called Beethoven "The great mogul." Beethoven's only problem was that he had no taste, no proper idea what music should *be*. I told him that and the guy just blew up. Anyway, does Bernstein even mention that "little problem" Beethoven had? Naw...


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

It's alright not to be bowled over by Beethoven -- you aren't alone. But you don't have to justify your preference by citing others who may have their own agendas. I'm not sure what Bernstein said, but Beethoven's melody, harmony, counterpoint, and orchestration are exactly as good as they needed to be to produce the works he wrote -- of which many are very good indeed. To aver otherwise is to miss the forest for the trees.  In Tovey's unfinished book on Beethoven, he devoted a section taking on those who complained that Beethoven couldn't write a fugue. What he concluded was that Beethoven couldn't write (may not have tried to write) a Bach fugue. But he wrote a Beethoven fugue better than anyone!

Beethoven (as did most prolific composers) wrote a lot of bad music. But good Beethoven is very very good. And great Beethoven has been equalled by precious few in the history of music. And may or may not ever have been exceeded.

cheers --
george


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2013)

Hausmusik said:


> Interesting video, tdc. But I think you've slightly misstated LB's point. That stuff about "the inevitable right next note" is certainly vague as Bernstein phrases it, but it is quite clear to me that he is just elaborating on the main point, which is that Beethoven, though not (in LB's view) a master of orchestral color, fugal counterpoint, melody, or harmony, was nevertheless a master of _form._ (Yes, he criticizes Beethoven's fugues, but fugue is just one form, and not even a particularly fashionable one in the early 1800s.)
> 
> Bernstein's repeating a familiar point that Beethoven's skill in _developing a musical idea_ was his great gift as a composer. You know, it's Music Appreciation 101 stuff: Schubert had lyrical genius but was weak at developing a musical idea, and Beethoven was the reverse.
> 
> ...


I think this is an accurate assessment of what Bernstein is saying about Beethoven in this Harvard lecture (which I've seen before). He's is actually giving high praise to Beethoven and I agree with much of what LB says. I do, however, respect the fact that not everybody 'gets' Beethoven; they are certainly entitled to their opinions.

As I once said to a class of Year 9 students (14yo) in high-school when they complained they disliked classical ballet (I showed them Cranko's "Romeo & Juliet" when we were studying the Shakespearean text), "Oh, that's good - it means I don't have to compete with you for the best seats".


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2013)

GGluek said:


> But he wrote a Beethoven fugue better than anyone!
> 
> Beethoven (as did most prolific composers) wrote a lot of bad music. But good Beethoven is very very good. And great Beethoven has been equalled by precious few in the history of music. And may or may not ever have been exceeded.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure that Beethoven wrote "a lot of bad music". Sure, he produced, inter alia, "Wellington's Victory", but this was a commission and the millieu was Napoleonic Europe and there were a great many military forays taking place. Many of the 'trifles' he wrote in this period were contractual ones for publishers and he didn't especially like what he'd written but even Maynard Solomon finds merit in some of LvB's lesser works, such as this and other somewhat jingoist offerings, identifying techniques he also applied in some of his later, more profound, works.

The public loved it at the time, and lapped it up, but we don't all have to like it today!!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I'm not sure that Beethoven wrote "a lot of bad music".


Neither am I. I think Ludwig had an extraordinary hit rate -- Out of 135 opus numbers, probably half are firmly in the repertoire. Hmmm, think I'll go count 'em up...

Here we are. An astonishing 93 out of 135 in the repertoire. Some stand high in specialty repertores (cello, clarinet, etc). By my judgment:

Opus 1: Three Piano Trios (1795)
Opus 2: Three Piano Sonatas (1796)
Opus 3: String Trio No. 1 in E-flat major (1794)
Opus 4: String Quintet (Reworking of Wind Octet (Op. 103), 1795)
Opus 5: Two Cello Sonatas (1796)
Opus 7: Piano Sonata No. 4 in E-flat major (1797)
Opus 8: String Trio No. 2 (Serenade) in D major (1797)
Opus 9: Three String Trios (1798)
Opus 10: Three Piano Sonatas (1798)
Opus 11: Piano Trio No. 4 in B-flat major ("Gassenhauer") (1797)
Opus 12: Three Violin Sonatas (1798)
Opus 13: Piano Sonata No. 8 in C minor ("Pathetique") (1799)
Opus 14: Two Piano Sonatas (1799)
Opus 15: Piano Concerto No. 1 in C major.
Opus 16: Quintet for Piano and Winds (1796)
Opus 17: Horn Sonata in F major (1800)
Opus 18: Six String Quartets (1800)
Opus 19: Piano Concerto No. 2 in B-flat major (1795)
Opus 20: Septet in E-flat major (1799)
Opus 21: Symphony No. 1 in C major (1800)
Opus 22: Piano Sonata No. 11 in B-flat major (1800)
Opus 23: Violin Sonata No. 4 in A minor (1801)
Opus 24: Violin Sonata No. 5 in F major, "Spring" (1801)
Opus 26: Piano Sonata No. 12 in A-flat major (1801)
Opus 27: Two Piano Sonatas (1801)
Opus 28: Piano Sonata No. 15 in D major (1801)
Opus 29: String Quintet in C major (1801)
Opus 30: Three Violin Sonatas (1803)
Opus 31: Three Piano Sonatas (1802)
Opus 33: Seven Bagatelles for piano (1802)
Opus 34: Six variations on an original theme for piano in F major (1802)
Opus 35: Fifteen variations and a fugue ("Eroica Variations") (1802)
Opus 36: Symphony No. 2 in D major (1803)
Opus 37: Piano Concerto No. 3 in C minor (1803)
Opus 40: Romance for Violin and Orchestra No. 1 in G major (1802)
Opus 43: The Creatures of Prometheus, overture and ballet music (1801)
Opus 47: Violin Sonata No. 9 in A major ("Kreutzer") (1802)
Opus 50: Romance for Violin and Orchestra No. 2 in F major (1798)
Opus 53: Piano Sonata No. 21 in C major ("Waldstein") (1803)
Opus 54: Piano Sonata No. 22 in F major (1804)
Opus 55: Symphony No. 3 in E-flat major ("Eroica") (1805)
Opus 56: Triple Concerto for violin, cello, and piano in C major (1804-1805)
Opus 57: Piano Sonata No. 23 in F minor ("Appassionata") (1805-1806)
Opus 58: Piano Concerto No. 4 in G major (1805-1806)
Opus 59: Three String Quartets ("Rasumovsky") (1806)
Opus 60: Symphony No. 4 in B-flat major (1806)
Opus 61: Violin Concerto in D major (1806)
Opus 62: Coriolan Overture (1807)
Opus 66: 12 Variations for cello and piano in F major on Mozart's "Ein Mädchen oder Weibchen" (1796)
Opus 67: Symphony No. 5 in C minor (1807-1808)
Opus 68: Symphony No. 6 in F major ("Pastoral") (1807-1808)
Opus 69: Cello Sonata No. 3 in A major (1808)
Opus 70: Two Piano Trios (1808)
Opus 72: Fidelio, opera (c. 1803-05; Fidelio Overture composed 1814)
Opus 73: Piano Concerto No. 5 in E-flat major ("Emperor") (1809)
Opus 74: String Quartet No. 10 in E-flat major ("Harp") (1809)
Opus 77: Piano Fantasia in G minor (1809)
Opus 78: Piano Sonata No. 24 in F-sharp major (1809)
Opus 79: Piano Sonata No. 25 in G major (1809)
Opus 80: "Choral Fantasy" (Fantasia in C minor for piano, chorus, and orchestra) (1808)
Opus 81a: Piano Sonata No. 26 in E-flat major ("Les Adieux") (1809)
Opus 84: Egmont, overture and incidental music (1810)
Opus 86: Mass in C major (1807)
Opus 90: Piano Sonata No. 27 in E minor (1814)
Opus 92: Symphony No. 7 in A major (1812)
Opus 93: Symphony No. 8 in F major (1812)
Opus 95: String Quartet No. 11 in F minor ("Serioso") (1810)
Opus 96: Violin Sonata No. 10 in G major (1812)
Opus 97: Piano Trio No. 7 in B-flat major ("Archduke") (1811)
Opus 98: An die ferne Geliebte, song cycle (1816)
Opus 101: Piano Sonata No. 28 in A major (1816)
Opus 102: Two Cello Sonatas (1815)
Opus 103: Octet in E-flat (1792)
Opus 106: Piano Sonata No. 29 in B-flat major ("Hammerklavier") (1818)
Opus 109: Piano Sonata No. 30 in E major (1820)
Opus 110: Piano Sonata No. 31 in A-flat major (1821).
Opus 111: Piano Sonata No. 32 in C minor (1822)
Opus 113: Die Ruinen von Athen (The ruins of Athens), overture and incidental music (1811)
Opus 115: Zur Namensfeier (Feastday), overture (1815)
Opus 117: König Stephan (King Stephen), overture and incidental music (1811)
Opus 119: Eleven new Bagatelles for piano (1822)
Opus 120: Thirty-three variations on a waltz by Diabelli for piano in C major ("Diabelli Variations") (1823)
Opus 123: Missa Solemnis in D major (1823)
Opus 124: Die Weihe des Hauses (Consecration of the House), overture (1822)
Opus 125: Symphony No. 9 in D minor ("Choral") (1824)
Opus 126: Six Bagatelles for piano (1824)
Opus 127: String Quartet No. 12 in E-flat major (1825)
Opus 129: Rondo à Capriccio for piano in G major ("Rage over a lost penny") (1795)
Opus 130: String Quartet No. 13 in B-flat major (1825)
Opus 131: String Quartet No. 14 in C-sharp minor (1826)
Opus 132: String Quartet No. 15 in A minor (1825)
Opus 133: Große Fuge in B-flat major for string quartet (originally finale of Opus 130) (1826)
Opus 135: String Quartet No. 16 in F major (1826)


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Ken, not sure one can call _all_ of those "firmly" in the repertoire.....  Though I guess I might not understand your criteria.

E.g. I am very fond of the Horn Sonata but ... and Opp. 4, 33, 34, 43, 66 (!!), 77, 80, 115, 117, 124....not sure about firmness of their "canonicity" (though some of these are great works IMO).


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hausmusik said:


> Ken, not sure one can call _all_ of those "firmly" in the repertoire.....  Though I guess I might not understand your criteria.
> 
> E.G. I am very fond of the Horn Sonata but ... and Opp. 4, 33, 34, 43, 66. (!), 77, 80, 115, 117, 124....not sure about firmness of their "canonicity" (though some of these are great works IMO).


Well even if you take the ten you listed out, we're still at 83 out of 135, way better than the 50% I initially estimated. And of course you shouldn't take them out. I mean,the Consecration of the House???

But I'll give you the Op. 34, no more. :tiphat:


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

A composer i wish i liked more...


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Oh, my. Must every conversation about composition giants turn into "He is really not that great" vs. "Huh? Of course he is great!"

Here are some of my favorite Beethoven works

Piano Sonata Op. 13 "Pathetique" and Piano Concerto no. 3 (Op. 37). I think of these two as little sister and big sister, (although I guess the big sister is the concerto which is the younger work...) C minor for Beethoven is like a huge and majestic building that can hold tragedy, lyricism and celebration. Both these pieces have very solemn but stunningly beautiful first movements that also have quite a bit of high-energy rhythm, lyrical middle movements in major, and motoric last movements that contain dreamier passages in A flat major and then rocket to a powerful close. The more I play the Concerto the more I love the surprisingly playful C major finish. Like the sun finally streams through all the windows in the majestic C minor building.

The Piano Concerto no. 2. Pretty much the opposite of Beethoven C minor. No. 2 can be characterized as skipping through the daisies, taking a sunlit nap among the daisies, then skipping through the daisies with renewed energy. (I think I may mainly like this piece by means of contrast to Beethoven's super-serious reputation.)

The Symphony no. 7. I don't agree with everything Bernstein says about Beethoven, but when he said this symphony was "the apotheosis of the dance," he was so utterly right. 

The string quartets. I haven't listened to them as much as the other works, so I can't comment in detail, but I really enjoy them.

The violin concerto, especially the Rondo. It's such a basic chordal melody, and a simple dance rhythm, and yet it is so unique and awesome.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2013)

hreichgott said:


> Oh, my. Must every conversation about composition giants turn into "He is really not that great" vs. "Huh? Of course he is great!"
> 
> Here are some of my favorite Beethoven works
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your favourite Beethoven works. I don't always agree with Bernstein - or any musician or critic for that matter - but I enjoy his muscular intellectuality and profound understanding of musical issues. The biography of Bernstein by Humphrey Burton is a joy to read and Bernstein was a giant of the music scene and a formidable musician. He loved Beethoven as I do!!!


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Okay, "a lot" is a subjective measure, and I admit I don't listen to his lesser works much (as you get older you apportion your remaining listening time differently). But I was especially thinking of the minor works -- the songs, German Dances, WoO stuff, etc. And what I have always admired about his experimenting is not that he always got it right, but how he seldom tried something more than twice before getting it right -- which is an amazing batting average. 
george


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

GGluek said:


> Okay, "a lot" is a subjective measure, and I admit I don't listen to his lesser works much (as you get older you apportion your remaining listening time differently). But I was especially thinking of the minor works -- the songs, German Dances, WoO stuff, etc. And what I have always admired about his experimenting is not that he always got it right, but how he seldom tried something more than twice before getting it right -- which is an amazing batting average.
> george


True, my "test" was a bit loaded because it was limited to works with opus numbers that he assigned. The WoO and similar lists have lots of juvenalia and "written-to-order" sets of dances and so forth, that are of little interest. And most of his songs are for specialists, none of whom I've ever met or even heard of! There are some WoO gems though -- try the 32 Variations in C minor, WoO 80. This was enormously popular in his lifetime (and today for that matter) but for some reason Beethoven didn't think much of it. No accounting for taste! :lol:


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2013)

Well I am just a simple lad and LvB has remained at the top of my list for years! 
Jani, I am d/l the video you linked to watch to night with a glass of wine. thanks


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

hreichgott said:


> I don't agree with everything Bernstein says about Beethoven, but when he said this symphony [No. 7] was "the apotheosis of the dance," he was so utterly right.


Believe it was Wagner who said that, not Bernstein.


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Could easily be. I remember it from a Bernstein essay but he could well have been quoting Wagner. Or I could be wrong. Whoever said it, s/he spoke the truth!


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## Pastoral (Oct 13, 2012)

Beethoven takes up 80% of my music listening time. I don't know how you guys can listen to so many composers. I don't think I have enough time even only for Beethoven. Also, when I don't listen to him, I spend a lot of time reading about him. I guess I am a Beethoven freak.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

"Is such music needed by anyone? I must tell you how I dislike it all. Beethoven is nonsense, Pushkin and Lermontov also" - Leo Tolstoy


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2013)

Pastoral said:


> Beethoven takes up 80% of my music listening time. I don't know how you guys can listen to so many composers. I don't think I have enough time even only for Beethoven. Also, when I don't listen to him, I spend a lot of time reading about him. I guess I am a Beethoven freak.


Don't over dose you need him to last you a life time a little variety is a good thing


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pastoral said:


> Beethoven takes up 80% of my music listening time. I don't know how you guys can listen to so many composers. I don't think I have enough time even only for Beethoven. Also, when I don't listen to him, I spend a lot of time reading about him. I guess I am a Beethoven freak.


It's when you are a Wagner freak you need to worry.


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

My classical music love began with Tchaikovsky, thanks to Time-Life's Great Men Of Music. But soon, Beethoven took over, and remained my supreme composer for over twenty years. For me, it is the human expression of the deepest suffering that wipes me out. The strength in the face of that suffering. But really, in his greatest, greatest works: the Ninth, the late piano sonatas and quartets, it is the aching need for the divine, the touching the face of the divine. 

Bach is now my favorite composer and his glorious spiritual music is mostly unmatched in quality and quantity. Such a high, miraculous ceiling. But dear Beethoven, composing music like an anguished prayer, produced music so needing and connected to the divine that it pierced that ceiling. Those precious, breathless works will forever stand as monuments to the human spirit. 

That is my opinion of Beethoven. If you average the quality of all of his music, he was a great composer, but not the greatest. Top five stuff. But if you take his top ten to twenty works and measure them against a similar selection of the greatest of the great, Beethoven becomes a formidable contender.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Muddy said:


> That is my opinion of Beethoven. If you average the quality of all of his music, he was a great composer, but not the greatest. Top five stuff. But if you take his top ten to twenty works and measure them against a similar selection of the greatest of the great, Beethoven becomes a formidable contender.


I would be interested to know what works you consider the greatest of the great as a comparision to Beethoven's, and if not the greatest composer, who is in your opinion?

In my experience I've always come back to Beethoven and over many years my admiration for his music has only grown. I consider him the greatest as his music, amongst other things, seems to answer the question of the human condition in musical terms, charting the many emotions we feel and experience as people. Of course, music touches us all in different ways but Beethoven's pulse has been a constant factor in my life, and will always remain so.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Muddy said:


> My classical music love began with Tchaikovsky, thanks to Time-Life's Great Men Of Music. But soon, Beethoven took over, and remained my supreme composer for over twenty years. For me, it is the human expression of the deepest suffering that wipes me out. The strength in the face of that suffering. But really, in his greatest, greatest works: the Ninth, the late piano sonatas and quartets, it is the aching need for the divine, the touching the face of the divine.
> 
> Bach is now my favorite composer and his glorious spiritual music is mostly unmatched in quality and quantity. Such a high, miraculous ceiling. But dear Beethoven, composing music like an anguished prayer, produced music so needing and connected to the divine that it pierced that ceiling. Those precious, breathless works will forever stand as monuments to the human spirit.
> 
> That is my opinion of Beethoven. If you average the quality of all of his music, he was a great composer, but not the greatest. Top five stuff. But if you take his top ten to twenty works and measure them against a similar selection of the greatest of the great, Beethoven becomes a formidable contender.


I think it is impossible to say who is the 'greatest' composer as they are all so different and work in different areas. Who wrote the greatest choral music? Bach. The greatest operas? Mozart. The greatest symphonies and string quartets? Beethoven.
But even these are my own subjective opinions. In different moods I seek different composers.
At the end, all one can say that it's the composer you come back to most. By a small margin, in my case, it is Beethoven. To me the music of this troubled soul contains perhaps the greatest satisfaction.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2013)

DavidA said:


> In different moods I seek different composers.
> At the end, all one can say that it's the composer you come back to most. By a small margin, in my case, it is Beethoven. To me the music of this troubled soul contains perhaps the greatest satisfaction.


I agree completely David to day I am in the mood for LvB last week it was Debussy


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