# Mozart: The 450's



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

In Mozart we see that pleasing marriage between legend and reality. So many of the tales about him are false, but so many are also true, especially his prolificness as a composer, and the rapidity in which he created timeless masterpieces. For me, there are phases of listening to him. I went for the 360's late last year (*K364*, _Sinfonia Concertante_, *K365*, _Concerto for 2 pianos_, *K366*, _Idomeneo_).

Now, although the catalogue has been corrected and we know that these three works weren't composed in sequence, I find this to be a wonderful and helpful system in getting to know his work.

Another is the 490's, and historically this is recorded more accurately: *K491*, _Piano Concerto #24_, *K492*, _The Marriage of Figaro_, *K493*, _Piano Quartet #2_, *K497*, _Sonata for Four Hands_, *K498*, _Kegelstatt Piano Trio_, *K499*, _'Hoffmeister' String Quartet_. There are others I've skipped - a piano trio, a horn concerto, a rondo for keyboard, but again, focussing in on this decade in the Kochel catalogue brings me an eclectic bunch of styles and a further admiration for Mozart, who composed the lot between March and August in 1786.

The subject of this thread, however, is that pianistic frenzy of compositions that are the 450's: *K450*, _Piano Concerto #15_, *K451*, _PC #16_, *K452*, _Piano Quintet_, *K453*, _PC #17_, *K454*, _Violin Sonata B-Flat_, *K456*, _PC #18_, *K457*, _Piano Sonata #14_, *K458*, _'Hunt' String Quartet_, *K459*, _PC #19_.

The date range for these is March-December 1784. K449 just preceded them, his 14th Piano Concerto, with its gorgeous inner movement. I must admit that when I'm looking to appreciate an unfamiliar work of Mozart, I might just go to the slow movement and use this as my hook. Usually they're simply beautiful.

In the 450's, we have the piano quintet in e-flat and the 14th piano sonata, both of which influenced and inspired Beethoven. Following the 14th piano concerto, we move through that genre, as if he was in a blazing hurry, to the masterly 19th, which is a fine predecessor to his great works from #'s 20-27.

Listening in sequence to his piano concertos, it's as if he lead the Viennese to a point where his talent could be fully shown. After the 9th and 10th were composed in Salzburg, the early Viennese concertos seem smaller and more restrained, to get them used to his playing, and some of the early Viennese concertos were arranged for smaller performances, for piano accompanied by string quartet.

By the 19th piano concerto, his popularity was at its highest and his ambition for this form of concerto composition was given the means to flourish. This period of piano composition by Mozart was foundational for that instrument, and as his popularity grew, so did the range of his piano writing. I can only imagine what his improvisations were like at this time, but Mozart was busy, and his Lent and Advent subscription concerts were a boon to modern-day lovers of the piano concerto.

K454 is a favourite of mine, a sonata for violin and piano. The largo opening leading to the witty allegro, typical Mozartean generosity in the way he tosses melodies about, then the slow set, an almost ballad-like Andante. I've been listening to a lot of violin sonatas lately. I've seen the piano concerto described as a dialogue between the individual and the state, but the violin sonata is much more intimate parley.

The 'Hunt' string quartet was the fourth one which he composed for Papa Haydn. These were "the fruit of a long and laborious endeavor." The 'Hunt' is the only work in the 450's which doesn't feature the piano, but it's a welcome interlude, for all that. It was during a performance of this and the last two of the Haydn Quartets that Joseph Haydn told Wolfgang's father, Leopold:

"Before God and as an honest man I tell you that your son is the greatest composer known to me either in person or by name; he has taste, and, furthermore, the most profound knowledge of composition."

I think this is perfectly apt today, as well.

Anyway, thanks for reading! :tiphat:


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Your comments give me a new perspective on these works, with which I'm not nearly as familiar as you are.

I know what I'm listening to today. 

Thank you!!!


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Cheers Novelette! 

There's a lot to listen to, and I find portioning Mozart up this way gives me a slice of his life with a diverse selection of musical forms, each in different stages of development.

Enjoy! :tiphat:


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks for the illuminating essay. I think Peter Serkin recorded the 1784 concertos as a 'project'; know them? If you care to, I'd be interested in your thoughts on K. 457. It has always seemed an outlier to me - and my favorite Mozart sonata.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Thanks Hilltroll! 

I have no musical training or knowledge, so I can only appreciate and describe things impressionistically. K457 is definitely a unique work in his output, one he returned to, as you know, to add K475, the c-minor fantasia, to it, so the fantasia would precede the sonata in performance. The sonata has a sumptuous slow set, really one of the most beautiful of all Mozarts slow movements. But the outer movements are very strong too. There's a call-and-response opening movement and this is a highly expressive work. The final movement too, has that fabulous rattle on the keyboard, either it's fury or release, but it contains tension and resolve in an uneasy mix.

I don't know why he wrote this. One thing I know from looking at the 450's is that it shows Mozart as a commercial artist - by the necessity - and the volumes of work he created were largely because he was a working musician. In his great essay, _Mozart as a Working Stiff_, Neal Zaslaw phrases it aptly: Mozart didn't compose because he was inspired, but he composed so beautifully because he was inspired. In other words, the impetus to write came from economic pressure. Composition was a large part of his work as a musician. K457 was no different, though I don't know the occasion it was written for. It shares a similarity with Beethoven's Pathetique sonata, though I don't know if Ludwig ever heard this music...


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Hey! Thanks too for the link to Zaslaw's essay. Interesting in several ways, including it's repudiation of the foolishness in _Amadeus_.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hey! Thanks too for the link to Zaslaw's essay. Interesting in several ways, including it's repudiation of the foolishness in _Amadeus_.


Exactly. Now, I enjoyed _Amadeus_, but it fed into the Romantic myth of Mozart as a proto-rock star, a depraved _Lisztomania_ type figure, whereas the truth was far more interesting: he was a working musician, and a very hardworking one, at that. More akin to Bach in his attitude to composition, than to the Romantics...


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I love the Piano Quintet K452. I did a really detailed score study on it once to learn some techniques for writing chamber music. Its an amazing display of how orchestration and timbre can be maximized when there are so many colors to use. Plus its just gorgeous and cleverly written.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Olias said:


> I love the Piano Quintet K452. I did a really detailed score study on it once to learn some techniques for writing chamber music. Its an amazing display of how orchestration and timbre can be maximized when there are so many colors to use. Plus its just gorgeous and cleverly written.


He considered it to be the best thing he'd written, at the time. I think this must have been over-excitement on his part, considering Idomeneo was in the bag, and the 9th piano concerto (billed at the time as having _"More 9th Than BEETHOVEN!"_ :lol: )...


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Thanks, a very educational read about the man who symbolises Classical music! I have listened to most of those pieces above and they are sublime.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2013)

Kieran said:


> Thanks Hilltroll!
> 
> I have no musical training or knowledge, so I can only appreciate and describe things impressionistically. K457 is definitely a unique work in his output, one he returned to, as you know, to add K475, the c-minor fantasia, to it, so the fantasia would precede the sonata in performance. The sonata has a sumptuous slow set, really one of the most beautiful of all Mozarts slow movements. But the outer movements are very strong too. There's a call-and-response opening movement and this is a highly expressive work. The final movement too, has that fabulous rattle on the keyboard, either it's fury or release, but it contains tension and resolve in an uneasy mix.
> 
> I don't know why he wrote this. One thing I know from looking at the 450's is that it shows Mozart as a commercial artist - by the necessity - and the volumes of work he created were largely because he was a working musician. In his great essay, _Mozart as a Working Stiff_, Neal Zaslaw phrases it aptly: Mozart didn't compose because he was inspired, but he composed so beautifully because he was inspired. In other words, the impetus to write came from economic pressure. Composition was a large part of his work as a musician. K457 was no different, though I don't know the occasion it was written for. It shares a similarity with Beethoven's Pathetique sonata, though I don't know if Ludwig ever heard this music...


I do have issues with Zaslaw's approach, as described here and elsewhere (but I have not read his essay). The impetus to write music for a composer, first an foremost, follows a creative urge. It's a chicken and egg argument - he establishes that he can create wonderful music and then HAS to follow through on a permanent basis. Earning a living from it is surely icing on the cake. To talk about a 'working musician' suggests a utilitarian function to the music - rather like "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik": people eat and talk but don't listen - and it certainly sounds like that. I would suggest that Mozart wrote 'musicians' music' rather than a 'to order' variety. Furthermore, I'd suggest most great composers wrote with a generous ear towards other composers and musicians and if audiences appreciated it well and good!! Ego is there, certainly, and this is implied in the comments by Kieran that he was attempting to show his special skills, but my instincts and knowledge of Beethoven (and he is the composer I know best) and of Bach both show me composers who were trying to eek out a living from music but these were also born of an 'internal dialogue' - in Bach's case between himself and his God. An absolute need to express the inner creative urge, and I cannot imagine any composer of any age being different. It's a very human response. My own belief is that we freeze Mozart in porcelain if we try to apply this or that mindset to his creativity. One only needs to read his letters to understand the sheer necessity of composing, the urgency of having his voice heard and the desire for 'acceptance' and recognition.

Also, the vast majority of great composers have also been teachers - starting from the very earliest. Liszt, for example, taught throughout his extraordinary career as a concert virtuoso and continued teaching long after he had ceased to composed and perform. Bach was a teacher and wrote many excellent works for didactic purposes, not expecting anything by way of renumeration for this. Think "Art of Fugue" and "The 48 Preludes and Fugues". This all taps into an intrinsic love of the art of music and the desire to progress the art form beyond composition and performance.

Great discussion to have.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Hi countenance! :tiphat:



> I do have issues with Zaslaw's approach, as described here and elsewhere (but I have not read his essay)


I suggest then that you read his essay! 

He doesn't state that Mozart composed reluctantly or didn't love to compose - we know he loved to compose more than anything, from his letters - but he suggests, _based on all known evidence_, that Mozart composed primarily to fulfil commissions, and not from some inner compulsion. This is borne out by the facts of Mozart's life: so many discarded compositions once the commission had been removed, and so very few - only the Rondo in a-minor, from memory - were composed without us knowing why, or what occasion it was to be performed.

In 1789 and 1790, he fell out of favour with the Viennese and the commissions started to dry up. So did the composition, since he didn't compose much during that period of criminal neglect by the Viennese. As things picked up again in his final year, he composed so much more.

For Mozart, quite clearly he didn't compose only for joy and 'earning a living was the icing on the cake.' This is to look at him through 19th century Romantic eyes, and it doesn't stack up. It sentimentalises him, but he was actually very pragmatic.



> I would suggest that Mozart wrote 'musicians' music' rather than a 'to order' variety. Furthermore, I'd suggest most great composers wrote with a generous ear towards other composers and musicians and if audiences appreciated it well and good!!


This is not supported by his letters or by what we know of him.

I think you'd enjoy the Zaslaw article, he backs it up quite well, and it's very insightful. He also has a book on Mozart's symphonies and a Compendium of the works, which give background and excellent remarks for each work, not just his own, but also other eminent Mozartians.

I know you love Beethoven, and think of every composer in that way, but with Mozart he was deliberate in making his music accessible to the public as well as satisfying to the connoisseur. He wasn't just writing for musicians at all.

Going back to the K450's, I listened again today to K452, the Quintet. The only other Quintet in the same key and for the same instruments is by Beethoven. I think this is both as homage and an attempt by Ludwig to infiltrate the inner ear of this work. His is a fine quintet too. I've listened to K452 for over a quarter of a century, and like the opening movement of K466, the 21st piano concerto, it has never once seemed dull to me...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Kieran said:


> ...but he suggests, _based on all known evidence_, that Mozart composed primarily to fulfil commissions, and not from some inner compulsion. This is borne out by the facts of Mozart's life: so many discarded compositions once the commission had been removed...


I think this is generally considered true. (Which leaves the question: Why did he write has last three symphonies?) Beethoven started out the same way, but commissions gradually went out of style and by the 1810s he was writing more for sale to publishers.

BTW Beethoven's Op. 16 is indeed modelled on the k.452, in the opinion of most. Ludwig has good taste!


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## OldListener (Jan 26, 2013)

Kieran ,

Thanks for starting a very enjoyable thread. This is my first day on this forum and a fine way to start.

I would include PC #14 K. 449 along with 15-19. The concerti 14-27 all seem worth frequent listening. With the exception of PC #9, the earlier ones are just far less interesting to me. I think that Mozart crossed a threshold with # 14. (And another with # 20.)

The recordings of 14-19 with Peter Serkin, Alexander Schneider and the ECO have been favorites of mine for decades. (So are the Bilson/Gardiner/ English Baroque Soloists HIP recordings.)

PC #17 seems especially blessed with great recordings. I listen to Andras Schiff / Sandor Vegh most often but there are many very good performances.

The piano quintet and violin sonata are not on my regular listening round so I'm listening to them now.

Thanks again to all who added to this thread.

Bill


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2013)

I will read the Zaslaw article, as you suggest, as it should be readily available at our Conservatorium library. I would add one caveat - academics are very good at detail but often miss the "bigger picture". Life experience is a very considerable advantage because it adds perception and pragmatism to sometimes esoteric argument. I should imagine I won't change my view about the composer writing for musicians and other composers. What may be "considered true" may not necessarily be true and sometimes we must use our knowledge of music and our personal instincts to get behind the man. This is certainly true in the case of Maynard Solomon and his excellent research on Beethoven - he's able to read behind the lines, and this requires a particular skill of perception, coupled with life experience. 

There have been some excellent responses to your thread and this is very encouraging!!


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Thank you for your thread, Kieran. Re Mozart's Piano Sonatas recs., I haven't collected too much outside of the K. 300s, my favorites...but I do enjoy a few illuminating wanderings by Gulda and Pires, for 400s and 500s. However, now I'll add a few more, and perhaps listen a little closer.

I'm glad you mentioned the Mozart Letters. I think they're required reading. With them, you can really get pretty close to this manchild. :tiphat:


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> I think this is generally considered true. (Which leaves the question: Why did he write has last three symphonies?) Beethoven started out the same way, but commissions gradually went out of style and by the 1810s he was writing more for sale to publishers.
> 
> BTW Beethoven's Op. 16 is indeed modelled on the k.452, in the opinion of most. Ludwig has good taste!


Hi Ken,

Ludwig certainly has great taste!

The last three symphonies are generally assumed to have been composed for a performance. The Cambridge Mozart (Simon Keeffe's article) says that the "romanticized view of (these symphonies) runs completely counter to Mozart's practical and pragmatic attitude towards symphonic composition, indeed, composition in general...the existence of the g-minor symphony (the first without clarinets and the second with them) is the firmest evidence that performances took place in Mozart's lifetime. Mozart would surely not have rescored the work without specific performances on the horizon."

The consensus is that there were subscription concerts late in 1788 and they were performed there, and the re-scored parts of K550 reflect the addition of clarinetists to the orchestra. Salieri is also recorded as having conducted the g-minor.

Just of the sale of works to publishers, Mozart tried this method of earning a living too: his piano quartets were written for a publisher. There was to be a set of three, but the publisher (Hofmeister, I believe) pulled out after the first one was heard. It was considered to be too difficult for amateurs to perform. Luckily, the second one, K493, was already in the bag, but the third one was abandoned, due to loss of commission...


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Vaneyes said:


> Thank you for your thread, Kieran. Re Mozart's Piano Sonatas recs., I haven't collected too much outside of the K. 300s, my favorites...but I do enjoy a few illuminating wanderings by Gulda and Pires, for 400s and 500s. However, now I'll add a few more, and perhaps listen a little closer.
> 
> I'm glad you mentioned the Mozart Letters. I think they're required reading. With them, you can really get pretty close to this manchild. :tiphat:


Hi Vaneyes, 

If you're not familiar with K457 and its companion, K475, I thoroughly recommend them: they make a for a rich, brooding sonata. But also, indispensible are his last 3 piano sonatas: k570, K576 and K533/494. These are diverse and they cover a lot of ground. Given that Mozart composed sonatas largely for others to perform, these last three are sufficiently virtuoso to show what he could have done had he attacked the sonatas with himself in mind as their performer... :tiphat:


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Hi Countenance, 

I wouldn't dispute all the Mozart scholars diverse life experience and knowledge of music. They all seem very accomplished and 'able to read between the lines.' But they also seem able to read the lines too!

You can enjoy Zaslaw's article here:

http://www.aproposmozart.com/Zaslaw, Neal -- M.as working stiff.pdf

Enjoy!


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

OldListener said:


> Kieran ,
> 
> Thanks for starting a very enjoyable thread. This is my first day on this forum and a fine way to start.
> 
> ...


Hi Bill,

Thanks for that. You're the second person to recommend the Serkin recordings, so I may look them up. I listen largely to Mitsuko Uchido, but I also have some by Daniel Barenboim.

I also think the 9th is a significant moment in PC writing. He even added an innovation which Beethoven tends to get credit for: the piano leaping in at the beginning, rather than waiting its turn after the orchestra has laid out the thtemes. I wonder what you think of the 10th, K365, for two pianos? I love this, and it plays well as a companion to the Sinfonia Concertante, K365. Two scores teeming with melody and inventiveness.

I absolutely agree about the 14th. It's 'of a batch' with the k450's, and it shows an enlarged imagination, something more akin to the 9th, than to the 11th, 12th, or 13th, which I believe were deliberately smaller in range so he could re-score them for piano and string quartet and make some money of publishing sales. I have them in the re-scored version also and it's great to hear them played with bare strings and piano... :tiphat:


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2013)

Kieran said:


> Hi Countenance,
> 
> I wouldn't dispute all the Mozart scholars diverse life experience and knowledge of music. They all seem very accomplished and 'able to read between the lines.' But they also seem able to read the lines too!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link. I'll read it.

Someone like HC Robbins Landon was a person who could 'read between the lines' and bring a perceptive understanding to his musicological knowledge - but he is more the exception than the rule, IMO. Solomon makes some very sharp and perceptive comments about Beethoven from a knowledge of his music, his interactions with others (especially Johanna van Beethoven - his sister in law) and his motivations. Solomon had a life prior to musicology and I think he brings that innate skill of observation to bear on his understandings of Beethoven. In short, he 'reveals' - does doesn't simply 'explain'. There's a big difference. I read a detailed study of Beethoven's "Missa Solemnis" comparatively recently in the Casebook Series (by William Drabkin) and it told me nothing, only how the music was structure - but as to its actual meaning and the mindset of its composer I learned nothing at all. And I've read a heap of this stuff over the years!!

PS: My "plug-ins" (whatever those are) don't work and I can't download the Zaslaw article just now. Will have to see "the man" about it when I return home.


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## OldListener (Jan 26, 2013)

Kieran said:


> You're the second person to recommend the Serkin recordings, so I may look them up. I listen largely to Mitsuko Uchido, but I also have some by Daniel Barenboim.
> 
> I also think the 9th is a significant moment in PC writing. He even added an innovation which Beethoven tends to get credit for: the piano leaping in at the beginning, rather than waiting its turn after the orchestra has laid out the thtemes. I wonder what you think of the 10th, K365, for two pianos? I love this, and it plays well as a companion to the Sinfonia Concertante, K365. Two scores teeming with melody and inventiveness.
> 
> ... than to the 11th, 12th, or 13th, which I believe were deliberately smaller in range so he could re-score them for piano and string quartet and make some money of publishing sales. I have them in the re-scored version also and it's great to hear them played with bare strings and piano...


I'm aware of three separate CD issues of the P. Serkin concerto recordings. I got 14-18 on RCA red seal CDs a long time ago. Later I got a set of Japanese re-masterings for 14-19 which sounded a bit different from the RCA red seals. Then ArkivMusic reissued 14-18 as on-demand ArchivCDs (Currently $ 22 for the two CD set.)

I love the Sinfonia Concertante for violin and viola K. 364. I keep trying to appreciate the parallel Sinfonia Concertante for two pianos K. 365 but it never does much for me. What I as a listener like is not entirely based on the quality of a work.

I'd agree that No. 9 is a significant moment for piano writing and for Mozart. Mozart seemed to move to a higher level at different times for different kinds of music. For me, the 3rd violin concerto is far more interesting than 1 and 2. For symphonies, 25, 28 and 29 mark one transition and 38 marks another.

An interesting idea about 11-13. Your bare strings and piano comment reminds me of listening to piano four hands versus orchestral versions of a piece of music. I often feel that I understand a work better after hearing it both ways.

Bill


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Hey Billl,

Nice post. I agree with you on how Mozart has stages of development which seem staggered. It isn't always a seamless upward movement. The 9th was (and is) a huge development, and I think when he went to Vienna he eased back a little on taking huge leaps forward (my own opinion) in order to be palatable to the Viennese cognoscenti. He was concerned about making it as a performer and wanted to make an impression. His early Viennese concertos contain less innovation and dynamism to the 9th, to my ears.

He arranged his 11th-14th for piano and string quartet in order to generate a market for these as sheet music sales. I've heard #11 elsewhere, and listen to this disc of the others. It's a very instructive way to hear these works, stripped bare.

I suppose I make a parallel between K365 and K364 because they consecutive Kochel numbers and they're both double concertos. I believe they were both written around the same time. The romantic view is that they were written in Salzburg for Mozart to perform with his sister (K365) and father, (K364). It isn't so far-fetched that these works would be a parting gift from Wolfie, which includes his family. He was a great viola player and his dad was a teacher as well as player of the violin. Going further into supposition, I've read it suggested that the great slow movement of the Sinfonia Concertante was a double lament performed by father and son in honour of the departed mother.

There's no basis for this thought other than it helped a music lover to make an even deeper emotional connection with the work. It isn't supported by anything we know of the work, but it's a nice thought! :tiphat:


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