# Furtwängler 22-disc SACD box set releasing in December 2018



## McCrutchy

It looks like there are yet more Furtwängler SACDs coming to Japan, but this time, it's via the Berliner Philharmoniker and King International in Japan:

http://www.kinginternational.co.jp/classics/kkc-595273/

What is somewhat confusing to me is that, while many SACD versions in particular seem to be exclusively sold in Japan, many of these King International releases are just import versions with an Obi strip or Japanese commentary booklet attached. Yet, I can find no announcement of this set in the West, so I'm trying to figure out if this is a worldwide release that's just been announced in Japan first, or a Japan-only release.

The Google translation to English mentions the King International version comes "with a bonus footage of Japan only (DVD)", and that the first run in Japan comes with a 2019 calendar, which makes me wonder if the 22 SACD set itself will be released by the Berliner Philharmoniker label outside of Japan.

Here is what is listed after the track list in the Google translation:



> - The edition which assembled broadcasting recording by Berlin Phil and Furtwangler recorded the German empire broadcast during the war (1939 - 45 years).
> ● Fortunately, also included the first sound source! (Ravel: Daphnis and Chloe 1st Suite (excerpt), Schubert: Symphony "Incomplete" 2nd Movement)
> - As a tape sound source of the German Empire Broadcasting, sampling (28 bit / 96 kHz) is performed with the current highest technology, the appearance of Furtwängler highest sound quality of war when Berlin Phil himself handles.
> ● Choose the best sound source that can reproduce the performance at the time. Covers all the existing German empire broadcasting tapes, based on original tapes, set as best conditions.
> ● 22 sheets set SACD hybrid board. With a bonus footage of Japan only (DVD).
> ● First time benefit: Furtwangler 2019 calendar (A5 size)
> 
> This time "Furtwangler Empire Broadcasting Station (RRG) Archive 1939 - 45". This set is a compilation of broadcast recordings by the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra and Wilhelm Furtwangler (1886-1954) recorded during the war (1939 - 45 years) by the German Empire Broadcasting.
> Even in the era of turbulence under wartime, Furtwangler who put a life in his artistic activities. Performance during wartime in the conductor Furtwängler is the most important thing. It covers all the existing performances of the wartime Berlin Philharmonic & Furtwängler and revived with the highest quality of the past, it can be said that it is a decision board that surpasses all the boards so far.
> 
> In addition, it is about "tape itinerant" that is indispensable for talking about recording of Furtwängler in wartime. After the occupation of Berlin, the Soviet army confiscated approximately 1,500 tapes in the German empire broadcasting as a booty item. It has been used as a program for Moscow Broadcasting based on that tape, or releasing LP from Dew Melodia Label. In 1987, however, 20 copies of the original tape were returned, and the original tape seized in 1991 was returned to free Berlin broadcasting (SFB), and it is preserved in the archive of Berlin-Brandenburg broadcast (RBB, former SFB) until today It was done. In this time, most of the sound sources used in this set were sampled at 28bit / 96kHz by the Berlin Phil newly reproduced tape in 1987 and 1991. According to Tonemeister who was in charge, it says that these tapes could be sampled in very good condition despite the time being 30 years. In addition, we have sampled the pitches which had been problematic with many CDs before, based on the correct pitch and speed at that time. Unfortunately, although the concert record still remains, as for the missing program, the possibility that the tape has already disappeared is extremely high, and the sound source recorded in this set is the existing wartime Berlin Phil and Furtwen It is thought to be all of Gurler's performance.
> 
> Specifications will be released on the SACD hybrid board in order to take advantage of sampling at the highest sound quality. The commentary is an interesting content written about the history of this recording, from the seizure of the Soviet forces after the war to the return of copies, discovery of master tapes (with Japanese translation). In addition, as the first privilege of Japan only, one DVD including Documentary with Furtwängler's valuable footage and the 2019 version Furtwangler calendar (A5) are included.


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## bigshot

I guess they can charge ten bucks more a disc if it's an SACD.


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## Triplets

I don't see the advantage of remastering a mono recording in DSD for SACD. This is the kind of thing that would attract buyers in the Far East


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## wkasimer

Triplets said:


> I don't see the advantage of remastering a mono recording in DSD for SACD. This is the kind of thing that would attract buyers in the Far East


Right; it's the act of remastering that improves the sound, not the SACD format. I've bought a few Furwangler SACD's on Tahra, and they do sound terrific - but they sound terrific whether I'm playing the SACD layer or the RBCD.


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## McCrutchy

The set is now up for pre-order at Amazon Japan for a cool ¥35,000 (currently US $308.00):

http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B07K7P2V98

It's still unclear to me whether the set will be released outside of Japan, but if the recordings really have been remastered, then hopefully they do get released.


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## bigshot

It would make a great budget priced CD set.


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## Triplets

McCrutchy said:


> The set is now up for pre-order at Amazon Japan for a cool ¥35,000 (currently US $308.00):
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B07K7P2V98
> 
> It's still unclear to me whether the set will be released outside of Japan, but if the recordings really have been remastered, then hopefully they do get released.


Does it include the Schumann Fourth Symphony? I had just picked up the DG CD release of that a few months ago at a resale shop. Fantastic performance, now my favorite recording of the piece


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## McCrutchy

Triplets said:


> Does it include the Schumann Fourth Symphony? I had just picked up the DG CD release of that a few months ago at a resale shop. Fantastic performance, now my favorite recording of the piece


It doesn't appear so. Here is what is listed for Schumman on the discs (Discs 3, 5 and 14, respectively):



> Schumann: Piano Concerto (30'30)
> Walter Gisezing (piano)
> Recording: March 1 - 3, 1942, the former Philharmonic
> 
> Schumann: Cello Concerto (22'30)
> Tiborde de Mahula (cello)
> Recording: October 25 - 28, 1942, former Philharmonic
> 
> Schumann: Cello Concerto (2nd movement fragment, 3rd movement only) (10'30)
> Pierre Fournier (cello)
> Recording: On November 16, 1943, the former Philharmonic


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## gardibolt

If as the translation suggests, these are taken from the original radio tapes and not from the usual bootleg home-taping sources, this could be epochal. I hope it's released some place other than Japan at some kind of reasonable price.


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## Brahmsianhorn

The choice recordings offered here are:

1942 Beethoven 9th
1942 Brahms Piano concerto No. 2 w/Edwin Fischer
1942 R. Strauss Don Juan
1942 Wagner Tristan Prelude and Liebestod
1942 Bruckner 5th
1943 Beethoven 4th, 5th, Coriolan Overture
1943 Brahms 4th
1943 Mozart 39th
1943 R. Strauss Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks
1944 Bruckner 9th
1945 Brahms 1st: 4th mov.

All of these have fair claim to being the greatest recorded performances of said works. I am curious about the listed 1942 Beethoven 7th. I have never heard of this one. The familiar recording is from November 1943.

It's a shame there is no recording of WF's 1941 Berlin Mozart Requiem. I would have loved to hear the work in his hands. Ironically there is a very good sounding 1941 recording of the same work with the same chorus and orchestra issued by DG, but it was conducted by the chorus master, Bruno Kittel.


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## McCrutchy

Artwork is now up on Amazon.co.jp:


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## McCrutchy

It looks like the Berliner Philharmoniker added a promo video for the set to its YouTube channel, but the title and graphics are in Japanese:


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## McCrutchy

Here's an image of the packaging retweeted from a store by Tower Japan's Classical Twitter account. You should be able to discern a couple brief bits in English on what looks like an Obi strip for the release:










Still nothing on the BP store website, nor can I find anything regarding a Western release.


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## Kiki

This set could be in back order since going on sale last week on Amazon JP (will deliver overseas) but will now take one to two months to deliver. BTW the one-star comment was moaning about noise level... It costs an arm and a leg anyway.


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## McCrutchy

It looks like a Western release is coming later this month. As already implied, it will have all 22 SACDs and the book, but comes without the DVD (and maybe some minor paper extras), which is what was exclusive to the Japanese edition. Where the Japanese set costs almost $300 plus shipping abroad (or $320 plus any domestic shipping in Japan because of the tax), the Western version will be $229.00 plus shipping direct from the Berliner Philharmoniker shop.

EDIT: For those considering a purchase from the BP store above, here are the shipping options to the USA for the box:



> Standard delivery (approx. 7-10 days) US$ 4.58
> Express delivery (approx. 5-7 days) US$ 9.17


Also listed on Presto Classical for $216.25 and JPC.de for €229,00.

The box is not listed on Amazon, yet, but the EAN is 4260306181810.


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## McCrutchy

The Western edition is now listed on Amazon, but only on Amazon.de, and the listing is not live yet:

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07N2PMNRK

The set should be listed with the same ASIN at other Amazon sites in the coming days, for example:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07N2PMNRK

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07N2PMNRK


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## Red Terror

McCrutchy said:


> The Western edition is now listed on Amazon, but only on Amazon.de, and the listing is not live yet:
> 
> https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07N2PMNRK
> 
> The set should be listed with the same ASIN at other Amazon sites in the coming days, for example:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07N2PMNRK
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07N2PMNRK


That'll cost a tidy sum ... nevermind, just saw the price. I must say the package design is a bit of art, isn't it?


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## inthemusiczone

The Berlin Philharmonic just posted this new video on their site and on YouTube. These remasters sound AMAZING. The design and packaging are a work of art unto themselves. I have ordered from Presto at a slight discount, but later I got an email from BPO that said first 200 hundred orders direct from them will get the short bonus DVD included in the Japanese edition. (Darn it!) SO excited to hear this.


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## inthemusiczone

Also, for those interested in the engineering side of things, there's this:

https://www.live-production.tv/news/cultural-events/stage-tec-converter-digitizes-historical-berlin-philharmonic-recordings.html


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## JosefinaHW

Just saw this thread. A few minutes ago I ordered the set from BP direct; I'm a great fan of the BP and their DCHall.. I don't want to investigate too much into the physics of audio at the risk of adoring a sound quality that I will never be able to afford. If any of you think that an upgrade to an SACD player is reasonably affordable, please let me know and I will investigate without bothering you. Many Thanks!


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## bigshot

SACD isn't a very strong format any more. It started out well with some fantastic multichannel recordings, but got diluted by too many releases that didn't take advantage of the medium. Today, it's being replaced by blu-ray audio and to a lesser degree DVD-A. If you don't have a multichannel speaker system, the only reason to invest in any of these formats is for specific releases you can't get on CD. There's no audible sound quality advantage other than possibly better engineering. But there are plenty of examples of poorer engineering too, so it's pretty much a wash.

I'm sure the CD layer of these SACDs will sound exactly the same as the SACD layer. At $10 a disc, the price is reasonable even for a CD.


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## Triplets

bigshot said:


> SACD isn't a very strong format any more. It started out well with some fantastic multichannel recordings, but got diluted by too many releases that didn't take advantage of the medium. Today, it's being replaced by blu-ray audio and to a lesser degree DVD-A. If you don't have a multichannel speaker system, the only reason to invest in any of these formats is for specific releases you can't get on CD. There's no audible sound quality advantage other than possibly better engineering. But there are plenty of examples of poorer engineering too, so it's pretty much a wash.
> 
> I'm sure the CD layer of these SACDs will sound exactly the same as the SACD layer. At $10 a disc, the price is reasonable even for a CD.


SACD is being replaced by DVD-A? Not that I've seen.
There are still several thousand SACDs of Classical Music available from Arkiv Music or Presto. If any format was a loser in recent years it was DVD-A. I don't see Blu Ray Audio thriving either. How many Blu Ray Audio releases are there? A dozen? How many DVD-A releases in the last 15 years? I doubt even double digits. Compared with that SACD looks like Amazon.
Josefina, there are still some machines being made that will play all of these formats, plus 4 K Blu Rays, and they range in price from $250 to $1000. I think that they are absolutely worth it ( damn, the latest smartphones cost $1000) but I agree with bigshot that for these particular mono recordings of radio broadcasts that the CD layer will probably sound the same as SACD.


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## JosefinaHW

Triplets said:


> SACD is being replaced by DVD-A? Not that I've seen.
> Josefina, there are still some machines being made that will play all of these formats, plus 4 K Blu Rays, and they range in price from $250 to $1000. I think that they are absolutely worth it ( damn, the latest smartphones cost $1000) but I agree with bigshot that for these particular mono recordings of radio broadcasts that the CD layer will probably sound the same as SACD.


Thank you. That price range is very reasonable; I sometimes shudder to think that a state-of-the-art system speaker can cost $16000+ And that's totally ok with me if members can afford it--go for the best if you are able.

Over the past few years I have now acquired many recordings that are SACDs--that was the only available format available: an example is HM's _Johannes-Passion_, Rene Jacobs, AfAlteMusik Berlin. At such a reasonable price it would be worthwhile for me to purchase such a player and enjoy the superior sound. Again, many thanks. :cheers:


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## JosefinaHW

Another thing to add to this conversation. It seems that the Berlin Philharmonic demands outstanding quality in almost everything they do.


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## Granate

JosefinaHW said:


> Another thing to add to this conversation. It seems that the Berlin Philharmonic demands outstanding quality in almost everything they do.


Yeah, targeting the wealthiest CM public and staying out of the mainstream market (streaming specially) Why is there so little buzz about the many Rattle complete sets that have been released in the orchestra's label? I hope they're doing a good marketing strategy. Because even with myself being inside the Romantic orchestral repertoire, their releases are a mystery to me.

Too bad they couldn't find the missing first movement of Bruckner 6.


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## JosefinaHW

Granate said:


> Yeah, targeting the wealthiest CM public and staying out of the mainstream market (streaming specially) Why is there so little buzz about the many Rattle complete sets that have been released in the orchestra's label? I hope they're doing a good marketing strategy. Because even with myself being inside the Romantic orchestral repertoire, their releases are a mystery to me.
> 
> Too bad they couldn't find the missing first movement of Bruckner 6.


I don't understand what you are saying, Granate? You think that the BP's ticket costs are too high, the price of their Digital Concert Hall is too high, the price of their recordings are too high?

Also, are you saying that because the other BP recordings have not been discussed on here (I don't know if that is true or not) they are not worthy of their price?

Again, my apologies, I am not attacking you; I'm just trying to understand what you mean.


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## Zofia

How is the remastering on this would buy for Papa...


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## Granate

JosefinaHW said:


> I don't understand what you are saying, Granate? You think that the BP's ticket costs are too high, the price of their Digital Concert Hall is too high, the price of their recordings are too high?
> 
> Also, are you saying that because the other BP recordings have not been discussed on here (I don't know if that is true or not) they are not worthy of their price?


It's just recording-wise. I try to compare their strategy with the ones followed by BR-Klassik or RCO Live, which offer modern recordings of works I've seen around this forum and other shopping sites way more often, and posting inmediately on streaming plattforms. I'm never talking about ticket costs or Digital Concert. I never meant to say the orchestra didn't deserve the money they were earning with these releases.

For the SQ they offer, at least, I see the BR Mahler symphonies set very reasonably-priced, and that's just a CD set 10€ cheaper than the Tudor's Nott Mahler SACD one. I think that with this strategy BPO has fallen out of most conversations, especially those newbies to CM who would prefer a recording quality and a product price as similar as modern-music releases (could they be contemporary pop, rock, alternative, indie) in individual cds, without hurting the wallet such a lot at one time.

I think the labels mentioned above offer this much better than the BPO house label. That's why I posted that.

Going to the Furtwängler war archive would have been a very good idea to be on the conversation again. That goes away from the HI-FI line and turns to collectionists who look after the best transfer.

Good night!


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## bigshot

You guys convinced me... ten bucks a disc isn't terribly outrageous, even though it's more than I usually pay for CDs these days. I'm not laboring under any delusions that the SACD format will add anything to this at all. And in the restoration article, they admit that the added level of sound quality their 24 bit mastering adds is deep below the noise floor of these particular recordings. So they'll have beautifully reproduced noise... OK. The thing that sold me on this is the chance to hear live Furtie in the peak years with decent sound. That's worth $10 a disc.

This sure isn't destined to be a mainstream set though. Unless some pirate label picks it up and repackages it in budget CDs. Which I'm sure is going to happen.


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## Guest

JosefinaHW said:


> Thank you. That price range is very reasonable; I sometimes shudder to think that a state-of-the-art system speaker can cost $16000+ And that's totally ok with me if members can afford it--go for the best if you are able.


Way more! $16k is at the lower end for many hi-end companies. $50-200K is not uncommon today.


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## Manxfeeder

Zofia said:


> How is the remastering on this would buy for Papa...


He's lucky to have such a daughter. :tiphat:


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## Brahmsianhorn

Thanks for the heads up. Purchased this from BPO on Friday.

This reminds me of the Furtwangler DG Originals set I purchased from Japan over 20 years ago. It is quite a remarkable set of 10 recordings given the 24-bit remastering. I paid a few hundred bucks to have it shipped from Japan, and I have never seen the set issued since. It is as if the set never existed. A shame too because recordings like the 1952 BPO Brahms 1st and 1953 Beethoven 7th and 8th deserve to be in circulation as singles if not as part of this set.


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## inthemusiczone

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Thanks for the heads up. Purchased this from BPO on Friday.
> 
> This reminds me of the Furtwangler DG Originals set I purchased from Japan over 20 years ago. It is quite a remarkable set of 10 recordings given the 24-bit remastering. I paid a few hundred bucks to have it shipped from Japan, and I have never seen the set issued since. It is as if the set never existed. A shame too because recordings like the 1952 BPO Brahms 1st and 1953 Beethoven 7th and 8th deserve to be in circulation as singles if not as part of this set.
> 
> View attachment 113180
> 
> 
> View attachment 113181


This looks amazing. Lucky you!


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## Red Terror

Furtwängler ... that good looking devil.


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## inthemusiczone

I would be really interested in finding this. Can you list the contents? Thanks.


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## JosefinaHW

The BP's _Furtwangler_ was just delivered! Sunday, 3:30 PM! They made some kind of arrangement that it would be sent from Naxos, USA in TN.

Here I go.....


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## inthemusiczone

JosefinaHW said:


> The BP's _Furtwangler_ was just delivered! Sunday, 3:30 PM! They made some kind of arrangement that it would be sent from Naxos, USA in TN.
> 
> Here I go.....


I am waiting for my copy from Presto Music. Excited to hear your thoughts after you have auditioned.


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## inthemusiczone

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Thanks for the heads up. Purchased this from BPO on Friday.
> 
> This reminds me of the Furtwangler DG Originals set I purchased from Japan over 20 years ago. It is quite a remarkable set of 10 recordings given the 24-bit remastering. I paid a few hundred bucks to have it shipped from Japan, and I have never seen the set issued since. It is as if the set never existed. A shame too because recordings like the 1952 BPO Brahms 1st and 1953 Beethoven 7th and 8th deserve to be in circulation as singles if not as part of this set.
> 
> I wonder if this item on Amazon Japan is the same as what you've got. Different artwork, but it is still in the Originals series. Any ideas? This is the only place I could find anything similar to what you have. I have a couple of the single CDs but not in any kind of an "Originals" configuration.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B00007DXMG/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A3OCC8GFNZ3MYU&psc=1


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## gardibolt

Just got a 10% off coupon from the BPO for participating in their Facebook contest (didn't win though). I may have to use it one this box.


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## Brahmsianhorn

inthemusiczone said:


> Brahmsianhorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the heads up. Purchased this from BPO on Friday.
> 
> This reminds me of the Furtwangler DG Originals set I purchased from Japan over 20 years ago. It is quite a remarkable set of 10 recordings given the 24-bit remastering. I paid a few hundred bucks to have it shipped from Japan, and I have never seen the set issued since. It is as if the set never existed. A shame too because recordings like the 1952 BPO Brahms 1st and 1953 Beethoven 7th and 8th deserve to be in circulation as singles if not as part of this set.
> 
> I wonder if this item on Amazon Japan is the same as what you've got. Different artwork, but it is still in the Originals series. Any ideas? This is the only place I could find anything similar to what you have. I have a couple of the single CDs but not in any kind of an "Originals" configuration.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B00007DXMG/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A3OCC8GFNZ3MYU&psc=1
> 
> 
> 
> That looks like it! The packaging may be different. That looks like it might be a smaller box with slipcases.
Click to expand...


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## JosefinaHW

Brahmsianhorn said:


> inthemusiczone said:
> 
> 
> 
> That looks like it! The packaging may be different. That looks like it might be a smaller box with slipcases.
> 
> 
> 
> How is it that the Japanese were the only ones to release a DG set?
Click to expand...


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## Brahmsianhorn

inthemusiczone said:


> I would be really interested in finding this. Can you list the contents? Thanks.


I'm rarely at home these days so trying to go off memory:

1 - Beethoven 5th and Egmont ovt, 5/27/47 (DG did make a separate release of this one)

2 - Beethoven 7th and 8th, 1953 (fantastic coupling! Was once available in an old release. The 7th reappeared in a DG box)

3 - Brahms 1st, 1952 (arguably his best version next to the 1951 NDR)

4 - Brahms 3rd, 1953 & Haydn variations (another outstanding account, my favorite for this symphony)

5 - Bruckner 4th, 8-22-51 (same as a previous DG issue, but remastered)

6 - Bruckner 7th, Cairo 1951 (very good performance, I marginally prefer the Rome account on Tahra or Music & Arts)

7 - Schubert, 8th and Rosamunde overture, Handel, Concerto grosso (I believe 1952 is the date on the symphony, a reference account)

8 - Schumann, 4th and Manfred overture (legendary account, already available in another DG Originals issue)

9 - R. Strauss, Don Juan, Metamorphosen

10 - Wagner, Overtures and preludes (fairly definitive accounts, same as old DG issue except strangely missing the Tannhauser prelude)

Bonus - Furtwangler in rehearsal and speaking


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## inthemusiczone

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I'm rarely at home these days so trying to go off memory:
> 
> 1 - Beethoven 5th and Egmont ovt, 5/27/47 (DG did make a separate release of this one)
> 
> 2 - Beethoven 7th and 8th, 1953 (fantastic coupling! Was once available in an old release. The 7th reappeared in a DG box)
> 
> 3 - Brahms 1st, 1952 (arguably his best version next to the 1951 NDR)
> 
> 4 - Brahms 3rd, 1953 & Haydn variations (another outstanding account, my favorite for this symphony)
> 
> 5 - Bruckner 4th, 8-22-51 (same as a previous DG issue, but remastered)
> 
> 6 - Bruckner 7th, Cairo 1951 (very good performance, I marginally prefer the Rome account on Tahra or Music & Arts)
> 
> 7 - Schubert, 8th and Rosamunde overture, Handel, Concerto grosso (I believe 1952 is the date on the symphony, a reference account)
> 
> 8 - Schumann, 4th and Manfred overture (legendary account, already available in another DG Originals issue)
> 
> 9 - R. Strauss, Don Juan, Metamorphosen
> 
> 10 - Wagner, Overtures and preludes (fairly definitive accounts, same as old DG issue except strangely missing the Tannhauser prelude)
> 
> Bonus - Furtwangler in rehearsal and speaking


Many thanks for this info. I went ahead and ordered from amazon japan. Meanwhile on eBay I saw this japanese complete Furtwangler set going for the tidy sum of $2500!!!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Furtwangler-DG-Japan/271404271916?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160727114228%26meid%3D2c3c4868095342658b19b3304baa021d%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D271404271916%26itm%3D271404271916&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507

Anyway, between the DG set, the Audite RIAS box I already own (fantastic!) and the new BPO remastered radio wartime radio recordings (on its way), I am going to be in Furtwangler heaven!!!!


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## JosefinaHW

Does anyone have any idea why the Japanese seem to have an almost exclusive collection of Furtwangler recordings? Did Japanese recording companies have anything to do with the first recordings? Did they acquire the rights/or just acquire them before or during the Second World War? Were they making multiple releases from some master set? Thank you.

Did some Japanese people become fans of Furtwangler because of contact between the Axes during WWII?


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## inthemusiczone

JosefinaHW said:


> Does anyone have any idea why the Japanese seem to have an almost exclusive collection of Furtwangler recordings? Did Japanese recording companies have anything to do with the first recordings? Did they acquire the rights/or just acquire them before or during the Second World War? Were they making multiple releases from some master set? Thank you.
> 
> Did some Japanese people become fans of Furtwangler because of contact between the Axes during WWII?


There are, and always have been, many unique Japanese editions of classical music releases, especially of historic material. Japanese music lovers are serious audiophiles and very serious about classical music. That's why there are so many SACD and other "high-end" CD remasters of labels like DGG originating from Japan. This goes way back to LP days when Japan would produce its own vinyl pressings; the vinyl itself was often superior to what was used in Europe and especially America, but the sources for those pressings were often one or two generations down from the sources used in European pressings. Latterly, dedicated audiophile remasters and repressing like King Super Analogue were mastered from master tapes, and that's why these pressings command such high prices on the used market. I've got quite a few of these myself and they are, indeed, superb. Certain conductors have always been highly regarded in the Japanese market, hence the special editions of Furtwangler and Fricsay, to name just a few. Nowadays there's a whole series of DG releases being put out for the Japanese market of artists like Karajan on HQCD, which is supposedly superior to normal CDs. I've heard some of these and they are very good indeed. The differences are small but telling: the music has less digital glare, and it doesn't fatigue as much; the presentation is more "analogue" in nature. Worth the money? That is in the ears (and wallet) of the listener.


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## JosefinaHW

inthemusiczone said:


> There are, and always have been, many unique Japanese editions of classical music releases, especially of historic material. Japanese music lovers are serious audiophiles and very serious about classical music. That's why there are so many SACD and other "high-end" CD remasters of labels like DGG originating from Japan. This goes way back to LP days when Japan would produce its own vinyl pressings; the vinyl itself was often superior to what was used in Europe and especially America, but the sources for those pressings were often one or two generations down from the sources used in European pressings. Latterly, dedicated audiophile remasters and repressing like King Super Analogue were mastered from master tapes, and that's why these pressings command such high prices on the used market. I've got quite a few of these myself and they are, indeed, superb. Certain conductors have always been highly regarded in the Japanese market, hence the special editions of Furtwangler and Fricsay, to name just a few. Nowadays there's a whole series of DG releases being put out for the Japanese market of artists like Karajan on HQCD, which is supposedly superior to normal CDs. I've heard some of these and they are very good indeed. The differences are small but telling: the music has less digital glare, and it doesn't fatigue as much; the presentation is more "analogue" in nature. Worth the money? That is in the ears (and wallet) of the listener.


This is interesting in so many ways and completely new to me other than now searching for Furtwangler recordings. I consider myself extremely fortunate to have purchased the Furtwangler Legacy box set for only $120 including shipping. I believe that was produced by a German company (Mem... something--the box hasn't arrived yet; it's coming from the US).

There is at least one YouTube video where someone in Japan remastered to HD a Furtwangler Beethoven--the sound is gorgeous--to my ears. Someone in the comments said that the person probably used at least two different recordings and then there was a link to a page in Japanese that was supposedly showing the specs/"music" in the public domain. I went back to look for that video and I'm not sure if the person deleted it or the links within it.

I am greatly at a disadvantage because I cannot read Japanese and it is impossible for me to learn it at this stage in my life--it's not cultural arrogance, so I cannot read the info on Amazon Japan and many of the used sets coming from Japan that are advertised in English on various sites don't offer tracked shipping.

I'm sure I am not alone in my ignorance or interest. It would be wonderful if you created a new thread or just continue to describe for us some of the history of audio and the love of CM in Japan.

Many Thanks!


----------



## JosefinaHW

I found one of those videos and here's the link referenced.

http://www.flac.aki.gs/Furtwangler/flacdb/file.php?data_id=326


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

inthemusiczone said:


> Anyway, between the DG set, the Audite RIAS box I already own (fantastic!) and the new BPO remastered radio wartime radio recordings (on its way), I am going to be in Furtwangler heaven!!!!


Oh wow, you're on your way! I would also add this box of VPO recordings, including the wartime Brahms 2nd and Bruckner 8th (my favorite of all WF recordings along with the wartime Beethoven 9th)


----------



## inthemusiczone

You are too kind. I am far from an expert in these matters, have just picked up a few opinions and information over a lifetime of collecting classical LPs and CDs. I also used to produce music and drama programming for NPR and BBC etc. over many years. Like you, I am not able to read Japanese!! But at some point I will no doubt be moved to start a thread on something or other.....


----------



## inthemusiczone

JosefinaHW said:


> I found one of those videos and here's the link referenced.
> 
> http://www.flac.aki.gs/Furtwangler/flacdb/file.php?data_id=326


The sound on this is, indeed, extraordinary and it's a great listen. It reminds me of the work of Pristine Classical, a label specializing in reissuing historic recordings. Its founder and CEO, as it were, is a former BBC engineer called Andrew Rose takes a somewhat more interventionist approach, which doesn't please some, but many others love the results as much as I do. He is an occasional guest on BBC Record Review. I highly recommend you investigate, if you do not know of his work already. He has extensive extracts posted with each recording. Apologies for the effect this may have on your checkbook!

https://www.pristineclassical.com


----------



## inthemusiczone

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Oh wow, you're on your way! I would also add this box of VPO recordings, including the wartime Brahms 2nd and Bruckner 8th (my favorite of all WF recordings along with the wartime Beethoven 9th)


I had seen this and was definitely interested. Thanks for recommending.


----------



## inthemusiczone

JosefinaHW said:


> This is interesting in so many ways and completely new to me other than now searching for Furtwangler recordings. I consider myself extremely fortunate to have purchased the Furtwangler Legacy box set for only $120 including shipping. I believe that was produced by a German company (Mem... something--the box hasn't arrived yet; it's coming from the US).
> 
> There is at least one YouTube video where someone in Japan remastered to HD a Furtwangler Beethoven--the sound is gorgeous--to my ears. Someone in the comments said that the person probably used at least two different recordings and then there was a link to a page in Japanese that was supposedly showing the specs/"music" in the public domain. I went back to look for that video and I'm not sure if the person deleted it or the links within it.
> 
> I am greatly at a disadvantage because I cannot read Japanese and it is impossible for me to learn it at this stage in my life--it's not cultural arrogance, so I cannot read the info on Amazon Japan and many of the used sets coming from Japan that are advertised in English on various sites don't offer tracked shipping.
> 
> I'm sure I am not alone in my ignorance or interest. It would be wonderful if you created a new thread or just continue to describe for us some of the history of audio and the love of CM in Japan.
> 
> Many Thanks!


You are too kind. I am far from an expert in these matters, have just picked up a few opinions and information over a lifetime of collecting classical LPs and CDs. I also used to produce music and drama programming for NPR and BBC etc. over many years. Like you, I am not able to read Japanese!! But at some point I will no doubt be moved to start a thread on something or other.....


----------



## JosefinaHW

inthemusiczone said:


> The sound on this is, indeed, extraordinary and it's a great listen. It reminds me of the work of Pristine Classical, a label specializing in reissuing historic recordings. Its founder and CEO, as it were, is a former BBC engineer called Andrew Rose takes a somewhat more interventionist approach, which doesn't please some, but many others love the results as much as I do. He is an occasional guest on BBC Record Review. I highly recommend you investigate, if you do not know of his work already. He has extensive extracts posted with each recording._* Apologies for the effect this may have on your checkbook!*_
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com


LOL. Many Thanks for this info.. In my free time today I've been watching films re/ Furtwangler and HvK on the Berlin Philharmonic's Digital Concert Hall. (In one of the films, Furtwangler's second wife said that people referred to him as "Fu" and Knappersbush (haven't explored his conducting at all yet) as "Kna"? Do people still do that? Does it sound obnoxious for me to refer to him now as "Fu"? I am being serious especially since I've said for the past two years that I am going to print out a list of all the keyboard combinations to insert letters with umlauts, etc. Anyway,....

As I'm sure you saw the sound engineer that produced the newly released Fu WWII radio recordings said that they could have eliminated all kinds of sounds (and I would imagine enhanced them as well), and I have to say that I do prefer that crystal clear, full sound that vibrates every cell of your body. Maybe they wanted to just put the music out there and let whomever wants to fiddle with it do so. I thought it was very interesting how they included on one of the the discs a performance of the Fourth without the audience and with the audience. It was also amazing to hear the difference in quality of the first performance of the Fifth and the later performance--amazing advancement in a short period of time.

I've moved onto watching a film about HvK's "Second Life" that was extremely focused on producing as perfect a recording as possible. It is very interesting that he states several times in the film (and I'm not half-way through it yet) that certain pieces of music can never be performed the way the composer intended them to be heard in a concert hall: it is necessary to adjust the sounds of the different instruments, etc... Very interesting stuff..... and maybe somewhere in this process I will learn when Western CM was introduced and then became popular in Japan. 

P.S. Has your Fu Radio Recordings set arrived yet?


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Never could adjust to Fu. I always say Furt.


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## Triplets

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Never could adjust to Fu. I always say Furt.


"Fu" has a rather unpleasant connotation in these parts...


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## staxomega

I was able to hear lossless rips of the redbook part of the BPO Furtwangler box, this is what I posted to the SH forums

_I had a chance to hear lossless samples from the latest BPO Furtwangler box. They've added some "ambience" effects and there is also a hard brick wall filter at 10 KHz. I'll have to compare them with other superior digital transfers before saying more, at least on these samples I have heard I'll be skipping this box._

Resized image:










Click here for full size: https://i.imgur.com/GuAAyLG.jpg

It was the noise reduction and the ambient stereo effects that killed it for me.



Brahmsianhorn said:


> Oh wow, you're on your way! I would also add this box of VPO recordings, including the wartime Brahms 2nd and Bruckner 8th (my favorite of all WF recordings along with the wartime Beethoven 9th)


Do you mind posting the dates these were performed? Thank you.


----------



## klassikofon

I've acquired the box set and am very pleased with the overall quality thus far. I find it to be superior to most other versions (of certain pieces) that I've heard in the past.

Following staxomega's post, I used the latest version of fre:ac to rip a track to my computer in FLAC format with no further signal processing to verify whether the 10KHz filter is present. This is what I see (no hard wall):









Also a direct link:


http://imgur.com/gv9br4D


@staxomega: I also noticed your track is ripped to 48KHz, whereas mine went from a standard 44.1KHz CD to a standard 44.1KHz FLAC.


----------



## bigshot

It looks like they used dynamic noise reduction (which is what I would expect). If you look at that chart, the loud stuff has higher frequencies than the quieter. The filter is being dynamically applied heavier in the quiet parts where the noise is most intrusive, and lighter in the loud parts where it isn't as much of a problem.

I doubt there is a heck of a lot of signal above 11kHz though. I think all that pale light blue stuff is tape hiss that has been allowed through by the dynamic filter. and is totally masked by the loud lower frequencies. You could probably apply a low pass filter at 11 or 12 and it wouldn't sound all that different.

The thing to remember is that there isn't much music up there in the top octave of 10 to 20kHz. The fact that a recording from the 40s has strong content up to 11 is pretty darn good. I bet this sounds great.

That upper chart looks like it is the raw tape transfer with signal only below 11 and undifferentiated noise above that.


----------



## inthemusiczone

JosefinaHW said:


> LOL. Many Thanks for this info.. In my free time today I've been watching films re/ Furtwangler and HvK on the Berlin Philharmonic's Digital Concert Hall. (In one of the films, Furtwangler's second wife said that people referred to him as "Fu" and Knappersbush (haven't explored his conducting at all yet) as "Kna"? Do people still do that? Does it sound obnoxious for me to refer to him now as "Fu"? I am being serious especially since I've said for the past two years that I am going to print out a list of all the keyboard combinations to insert letters with umlauts, etc. Anyway,....
> 
> As I'm sure you saw the sound engineer that produced the newly released Fu WWII radio recordings said that they could have eliminated all kinds of sounds (and I would imagine enhanced them as well), and I have to say that I do prefer that crystal clear, full sound that vibrates every cell of your body. Maybe they wanted to just put the music out there and let whomever wants to fiddle with it do so. I thought it was very interesting how they included on one of the the discs a performance of the Fourth without the audience and with the audience. It was also amazing to hear the difference in quality of the first performance of the Fifth and the later performance--amazing advancement in a short period of time.
> 
> I've moved onto watching a film about HvK's "Second Life" that was extremely focused on producing as perfect a recording as possible. It is very interesting that he states several times in the film (and I'm not half-way through it yet) that certain pieces of music can never be performed the way the composer intended them to be heard in a concert hall: it is necessary to adjust the sounds of the different instruments, etc... Very interesting stuff..... and maybe somewhere in this process I will learn when Western CM was introduced and then became popular in Japan.
> 
> P.S. Has your Fu Radio Recordings set arrived yet?


The Fu Radio recordings set just arrived, and it is a beautiful thing to behold. The design and documentation are superb. I think this will be a strong contender for Reissue of the Year. Alas I will not have time to take a listen for a few days --can't wait!

The Karajan recording which most completely embodies his thoughts on manipulating recording techniques to maximize the music is of Schoenberg's Variations, part of his ground-breaking set of the Second Viennese School which paved the way for a serious reassessment of this difficult music in the general music-going public. He changed the orchestra seating for each variation to maximize the clarity and impact of the dense orchestration. Karajan had to put his own money into the project to get it made. It was a huge bestseller. Give the whole set a listen if you don't know it already.


----------



## JosefinaHW

Triplets said:


> "Fu" has a rather unpleasant connotation in these parts...


The pronunciation the woman used was "phoo". Did you think I was pronouncing it with two syllables? Or is there something I don't know and need to look up in the Urban Dictionary?


----------



## JosefinaHW

inthemusiczone said:


> The Fu Radio recordings set just arrived, and it is a beautiful thing to behold. The design and documentation are superb. I think this will be a strong contender for Reissue of the Year. Alas I will not have time to take a listen for a few days --can't wait!
> 
> The Karajan recording which most completely embodies his thoughts on manipulating recording techniques to maximize the music is of Schoenberg's Variations, part of his ground-breaking set of the Second Viennese School which paved the way for a serious reassessment of this difficult music in the general music-going public. He changed the orchestra seating for each variation to maximize the clarity and impact of the dense orchestration. Karajan had to put his own money into the project to get it made. It was a huge bestseller. Give the whole set a listen if you don't know it already.
> 
> View attachment 113854


Yes, this is the recording that was discussed at length thus far in the film--I'm still not half-way through yet: Schonberg's Varition's and Berg's violin concerto. I'm not technically ready to appreciate this type of music yet, but I have certainly made a note of this recording.


----------



## JosefinaHW

inthemusiczone said:


> The sound on this is, indeed, extraordinary and it's a great listen.  It reminds me of the work of Pristine Classical, a label specializing in reissuing historic recordings. Its founder and CEO, as it were, is a former BBC engineer called Andrew Rose takes a somewhat more interventionist approach, which doesn't please some, but many others love the results as much as I do. He is an occasional guest on BBC Record Review. I highly recommend you investigate, if you do not know of his work already. He has extensive extracts posted with each recording. Apologies for the effect this may have on your checkbook!
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com


I just started to listen to the Toscannini 1939 Beethoven: it is extraordinary! I popped back on here to TY again and to tell a friend on here about it. In the "Karajan:Second Life" film, he is quoted as saying: "Some things you can bring out in a way you might never manage in a concert hall. Sometimes it's so beautiful it's almost frightening." (I'm taking notes :lol.

I am so very glad that you have joined TC, IntheZone! :cheers:


----------



## inthemusiczone

So I've had a chance to sit down and listen to several CDs in this set. Bear in mind I am no Furtwangler expert, having only recently begun my explorations of his recordings.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the presentation is a beautiful piece of art in its own right. Gorgeous design, with expensive, sturdy materials used throughout. The booklet tells a fascinating tale, with evocative photos of the period. You are taken right into the backstory of these recordings.

And what of the recordings themselves? (I am reporting on the CD layer, not the SACD) Well, they are nothing short of revelatory to anyone used to the usual sound of Furtwangler recordings. It is as if layers of smog have been removed. You are right there, in 40s Berlin, and no great allowances need to be made for the mono sound. I've heard records made in the studio decades later that have none of the vividness of what I heard this afternoon. I listened first to the Beethoven 4th (the version with audience; there is another without) and was immediately drawn into Furtwangler's conception. At the close of play I found myself thinking that really I can just chuck out all my other Beethoven recordings. Well, not exactly (!!), but the force of Furtwangler's musicianship and the playing of the orchestra seem to come from another universe. Then onto the Brahms Second Piano Concerto with Edwin Fischer; despite plentiful wrong notes in the solo part a riveting, technicolor performance, with the orchestra a vital partner. This started to sound like a symphony with solo piano! The intensity of the music-making takes your breath away. Finally, from the same concert as the Brahms, the Prelude and Liebestod from "Tristan und Isolde". Here the recording seemed to be even more immediate, and the intensity of the performance is literally ravishing. Time for a cold shower. Frankly, I've never heard a performance of this overexposed "bleeding chunk" like it.

Out of curiosity, from the same box I put on the middle movement of Bruckner 9 for comparison, because the source of this is not a direct copy of the original master tape (as with the aforementioned), but essentially a dupe. (The booklet explains all this in much more detail). Sure enough we are back to a Furtwangler sound we are all more familiar with: distant, dynamically constrained, and muddy. Magic still shines through, but it is no match for the original tape sound on the music I listened to earlier.

Most of the recordings in this set are from earlier generation masters, so I fully expect to be utterly captivated for hours to come. For anyone remotely interested in the history of recording, let alone Furtwangler, this is an essential purchase.

Extraordinary.


----------



## inthemusiczone

Thanks, JosefinaHW. It's going to be fun wading into the conversations here.


----------



## Granate

inthemusiczone said:


> And what of the recordings themselves? (I am reporting on the CD layer, not the SACD) Well, they are nothing short of revelatory to anyone used to the usual sound of Furtwangler recordings. It is as if layers of smog have been removed. You are right there, in 40s Berlin, and no great allowances need to be made for the mono sound. I've heard records made in the studio decades later that have none of the vividness of what I heard this afternoon. I listened first to the Beethoven 4th (the version with audience; there is another without) and was immediately drawn into Furtwangler's conception. At the close of play I found myself thinking that really I can just chuck out all my other Beethoven recordings. Well, not exactly (!!), but the force of Furtwangler's musicianship and the playing of the orchestra seem to come from another universe.
> 
> [...]
> 
> *Out of curiosity, from the same box I put on the middle movement of Bruckner 9 for comparison,* because the source of this is not a direct copy of the original master tape (as with the aforementioned), but essentially a dupe. (The booklet explains all this in much more detail). Sure enough we are back to a Furtwangler sound we are all more familiar with: distant, dynamically constrained, and muddy. Magic still shines through, but it is no match for the original tape sound on the music I listened to earlier.
> 
> Most of the recordings in this set are from earlier generation masters, so I fully expect to be utterly captivated for hours to come. For anyone remotely interested in the history of recording, let alone Furtwangler, this is an essential purchase.


Well, this is really inviting.


----------



## staxomega

klassikofon said:


> I've acquired the box set and am very pleased with the overall quality thus far. I find it to be superior to most other versions (of certain pieces) that I've heard in the past.
> 
> Following staxomega's post, I used the latest version of fre:ac to rip a track to my computer in FLAC format with no further signal processing to verify whether the 10KHz filter is present. This is what I see (no hard wall):
> 
> View attachment 113849
> 
> 
> Also a direct link:
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/gv9br4D
> 
> 
> @staxomega: I also noticed your track is ripped to 48KHz, whereas mine went from a standard 44.1KHz CD to a standard 44.1KHz FLAC.


Can you say which track this is? The screenshot I posted is from 1943 Beethoven Symphony 5.

I'm not bothered by this part that much at all, it's the ambient stereo filter that turns it into pseudo stereo that I do not like the sound of. Also the noise reduction gives it a slightly "dead sucked out" sound between notes, but the noise reduction is _not_ heavy handed.

Just so people don't think this is my hearing (which I know I trust  ) I have verified it with one of the German transfer engineers Timo Hagemeister and they did this to make it more palatable to listeners used to modern classical sound.


----------



## staxomega

JosefinaHW said:


> I just started to listen to the Toscannini 1939 Beethoven: it is extraordinary! I popped back on here to TY again and to tell a friend on here about it. In the "Karajan:Second Life" film, he is quoted as saying: "Some things you can bring out in a way you might never manage in a concert hall. Sometimes it's so beautiful it's almost frightening." (I'm taking notes :lol.
> 
> I am so very glad that you have joined TC, IntheZone! :cheers:


Which Toscanini 1939 and which symphony?

The best sounding transfers of the Beethoven 1939 Toscanini cycle I have heard were done by Richard Caniell at Immortal Performances. No noise reduction, no ambient stereo, no modernizing of the sound. Just some pitch corrections. It sounds true to the sources they used and the orchestra has the full tonal color and vibrancy.

They are a non-profit label that does tremendous work, if you see something on their website you're interested in I suggest checking it out 

Mr. Caniell previously did work for Naxos Historical but he has said some of those transfers were altered by Naxos to reduce the noise after he was finished with them.


----------



## klassikofon

staxomega said:


> Can you say which track this is? The screenshot I posted is from 1943 Beethoven Symphony 5.


Mine was the third movement from 1943 Beethoven Symphony 5. I noticed the track title in your screenshot said "1943" & "Beethoven" and assumed it to be that work.


----------



## klassikofon

Doesn't look like I can edit my posts yet - looking at your screenshot again, it says 1942... Not sure where I got that idea from. Regardless, it was indeed the same work.


----------



## bigshot

Does the Furtie set have synthesized stereo like Pristine or is it true mono?


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## klassikofon

bigshot said:


> Does the Furtie set have synthesized stereo like Pristine or is it true mono?


Looks like it's synthesized stereo... The FLAC ripped track, at least, opened with two identical looking channels.


----------



## JosefinaHW

staxomega said:


> Which Toscanini 1939 and which symphony?
> 
> The best sounding transfers of the Beethoven 1939 Toscanini cycle I have heard were done by Richard Caniell at Immortal Performances. No noise reduction, no ambient stereo, no modernizing of the sound. Just some pitch corrections. It sounds true to the sources they used and the orchestra has the full tonal color and vibrancy.
> 
> They are a non-profit label that does tremendous work, if you see something on their website you're interested in I suggest checking it out
> 
> Mr. Caniell previously did work for Naxos Historical but he has said some of those transfers were altered by Naxos to reduce the noise after he was finished with them.


This link will take you right to the info re/ the Toscanini, just scroll down and you get seven free listens on the site. I would be interested in your opinion. I will look into the ino you provided re/ Immortal Performances. TY.


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## bigshot

To tell if it is synthetic stereo, you play it normally and then switch to mono while it's playing and see if it changes.

I received the DVD today, but the set hasn't arrived yet. Unfortunately, the DVD won't play on my computer, even though it is PAL compatible. There is something wrong with the language selection buttons. I'll have to rip it to play it.


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## inthemusiczone

Listening to Brahms 4th right now. Extraordinary and the sound is amazing. An overwhelming sense of the music emerging in the moment, with an intensity and urgency that is quite unique. Incredible dynamics. The way Furtwangler can whip up the orchestra without sacrificing the overall line is masterly. I am in awe.


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## inthemusiczone

And the last movement of Brahms 1, from Furtwangler's last concert before he fled to Switzerland - January 23rd 1945. There is a vivid description of the concert in the accompanying booklet. As the Third Reich collapses the sense of impending doom in the music is palpable. Wow - just wow!


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## JosefinaHW

Extremely busy on my end, but I am now going to resume the Furt WarRadio Recordings. Just an FYI. My 107 (?) disc Furtwangler Legacy Box arrived today I will open it, but I might just inspect the disc and specially clean if necessary.


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## ccar

*"… It is as if Mozartean beauty no longer has a place in this city"*



inthemusiczone said:


> And the last movement of Brahms 1, from Furtwangler's last concert before he fled to Switzerland - January 23rd 1945. There is a vivid description of the concert in the accompanying booklet. As the Third Reich collapses the sense of impending doom in the music is palpable. Wow - just wow!


Wow indeed!

And the description is particularly moving because it was taken from the diary of an attendant to that January 1945 performance. During the concert the lights of the hall (the Admiralspalast because the Philharmonie was already bombed) went out during Mozart's 40th Symphony. But for a while the musicians continued to play until Furtwangler finally dropped the baton. After one hour the lights came back on and the audience and orchestra returned to the room but instead of completing the Mozart Symphony Furtwangler just begins with Brahms' First.

_"… It is as if Mozartean beauty, blissfulness itself, no longer has a place in this city."_


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

ccar said:


> Wow indeed!
> 
> And the description is particularly moving because it was taken from the diary of an attendant to that January 1945 performance. During the concert the lights of the hall (the Admiralspalast because the Philharmonie was already bombed) went out during Mozart's 40th Symphony. But for a while the musicians continued to play until Furtwangler finally dropped the baton. After one hour the lights came back on and the audience and orchestra returned to the room but instead of completing the Mozart Symphony Furtwangler just begins with Brahms' First.
> 
> _"… It is as if Mozartean beauty, blissfulness itself, no longer has a place in this city."_


Well, that would explain why we have only the final movement. What a shame. Could have been maybe the greatest orchestral recording of all time. Even the just last movement is a standing testament to the power of music in the darkest of times.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Mine arrived last week. Already relishing it. The Coriolan overture is incredible! Best transfer I have heard, even over the Tahra. I don't think you will find a better Beethoven orchestral recording anywhere.


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## inthemusiczone

Members of this forum will be interested to know that there will a full review and discussion of this set on BBC Radio 3's Record Review, this Saturday (March 16th), at 9am London time. You can listen live or catch the stream for 4 weeks after broadcast. Here is the program's Home page.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06w2121


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## bigshot

I still haven't received my copy after a month. I emailed the BPO shop and they said that they had relocated their warehouse and shipments should be going out this week from their fulfillment house in Tennessee.


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## JosefinaHW

bigshot said:


> I still haven't received my copy after a month. I emailed the BPO shop and they said that they had relocated their warehouse and shipments should be going out this week from their fulfillment house in Tennessee.


This might be to your advantage, BigShot. I received my set extremely quickly from TN, and I immediately listened and ripped all the discs into iTunes and WindowsMediaPlayer. I wasn't going to say anything on here about it but... 2.5 discs have only the Disc title and information in Japanese. This is a minor nuisance to me that I knew that I would eventually take care of, but it is possible that other people in the US complained and demanded replacements, etc.. Yesterday I received a letter from the BP in Germany via DHL asking if I wanted an official receipt or if I had any questions or problems. So there might be complaints and reissues or something.

I am also a subscriber to the DigitalConcertHall and frequently buy gift tickets, so I might have been sent the release immediately because of my loyalty.

When you receive them we should compare notes re/ the info on your discs.


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## bigshot

The printing on the disc itself is in Japanese? I thought they made one set with multiple translations so they could sell the same product in different regions. That is weird. Is the book all in one language?


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## JosefinaHW

bigshot said:


> The printing on the disc itself is in Japanese? I thought they made one set with multiple translations so they could sell the same product in different regions. That is weird. Is the book all in one language?


It's not the exterior printing. I'm *not sure what the term is exactly*, but it's the disc information encoded with the music: when you play a disc in the car and it shows you the track name; or the info that you select or immediately comes up on the screen when you rip a disc. Most of the time iTunes gives you a few options of what you would like the disc to be named in your library. Well, on 2.5 discs you don't have that option--it's all in Japanese along with either all of or some of the track names in Japanese.

As I said I consider it only a minor nuisance because I can manually enter the info but others might complain.

And just a very personal thing: There's something about it that reminds how much the Japanese have collaborated with the BP to bring us the DCC and other music technology. In the movie, _Karajan: Second Life_, one of the former EMI engineers said that Sony should put up a monument for all that HvK did to advocate the CD form. I won't be able to learn to read Japanese but I'll see it every time I play those discs.


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## bigshot

Ah! That info isn't encoded into the disc. Your computer is getting that info from an online database filled with info from volunteers. When a disc is first released, it doesn't have track info until someone volunteers to type it in. If that is a Japanese person, it's in Japanese. After a few weeks someone will have entered the English tags.


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## JosefinaHW

bigshot said:


> Ah! That info isn't encoded into the disc. Your computer is getting that info from an online database filled with info from volunteers. When a disc is first released, it doesn't have track info until someone volunteers to type it in. If that is a Japanese person, it's in Japanese. After a few weeks someone will have entered the English tags.


I love this forum. Thank you for this info BigShot! LOL We learn so many interesting things on here. Then, another possibility for you not receiving your Furt set yet is you might not have chosen express shipping or it was first come first serve. I hope the latter is the case because like me there may be many lovers of the BP who have never heard much of Furtwangler and this opens up an entire new world: music history, conducting styles, the remastering of older (or poorly) recordings, and fabulous interpretations of all that wonderful music,etc., etc....


----------



## gardibolt

Gracenote is the database iTunes uses for this; I think there are others. And yes, if the disc has been entered only by non-English speakers, you may well get unreadable info. That's not the disc producer's fault.

Still waitiing for my copy as well. I always reenter the data to suit my needs, so it'll be there once I get my set.


----------



## bigshot

I just got my set today. Boy! Those Germans like to package stuff. This box weighs a ton. Nicely laid out book, and the sleeves for the discs are all clearly labelled. Much easier to find things than the BPO DVD set I got.

Where should I start? Today is dedicated to listening.


----------



## bigshot

Edit: I spent Saturday afternoon listening to Brahms 4th and Schubert. Very good sound for the era. It has a tiny bit of reverb, but it's still a little dry and flat. I used a 5.1 concert hall DSP on it and it helped a lot. There's absolutely no reason this needed to be on SACD, but I guess that sells the Japanese.

The performances are incredible. I can't believe how flexible Furtie was with the band. He sculpts each phrase brilliantly and paces with spontaneous precision. This ain't no Toscanini! I'm happy I splurged on this set.


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## gardibolt

It is a beautiful box. I haven't dove in yet, but it's at the top of my list for the coming weeks.


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## inthemusiczone

In complete agreement. This set is amazing on every level, and, frankly, a work of art to look at.



bigshot said:


> Edit: I spent Saturday afternoon listening to Brahms 4th and Schubert. Very good sound for the era. It has a tiny bit of reverb, but it's still a little dry and flat. I used a 5.1 concert hall DSP on it and it helped a lot. There's absolutely no reason this needed to be on SACD, but I guess that sells the Japanese.
> 
> The performances are incredible. I can't believe how flexible Furtie was with the band. He sculpts each phrase brilliantly and paces with spontaneous precision. This ain't no Toscanini! I'm happy I splurged on this set.


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## bigshot

It's definitely a monument. I don't know where I'm going to store this big honkin' box


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## JosefinaHW

bigshot said:


> It's definitely a monument. I don't know where I'm going to store this ... big box


Buy a pedestal.  I am so glad this is the first Furtwangler addition to my collection.


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## Adamus

bigshot said:


> It's definitely a monument. I don't know where I'm going to store this big honkin' box


Rip it with itunes will do the job?


----------



## NLAdriaan

Quite a big step for a German institution, to release wartime recordings straight from the disinfected cultural heart of the Nazi regime. I am not so much into historic recordings to begin with, but this one will never make it to my collection. Just a bit too much of wrong history between the notes.


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## Granate

^^

That's a pity. Yesterday, I listened to my Pristine Classical copy of the 1942 Beethoven 9 in Ambient Stereo. It's like the remastering made it 15 years younger, and still one if not the best No.9 performance I've ever listened to.


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## bigshot

I just listen to music. If I demanded that all artists be clean as the driven snow, there wouldn't be much art to appreciate. I'm a grownup. I can listen to Nazi music without being a Nazi myself.


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## apricissimus

bigshot said:


> I just listen to music. If I demanded that all artists be clean as the driven snow, there wouldn't be much art to appreciate. I'm a grownup. I can listen to Nazi music without being a Nazi myself.


I think that's fine, and I don't think it's any reflection on your character, but I also respect the idea that extra-musical circumstances can put people off of a performer, or some piece of music. I think that's as legit a reason to not want to listen to a piece of music as any. If music evokes bad feelings in someone due to certain associations, then they shouldn't listen to it. And I'm not in a position to tell anyone what they should or should have bad feelings about.

I don't think people need to be consistent about this either.


----------



## ManateeFL

apricissimus said:


> I think that's fine, and I don't think it's any reflection on your character, but I also respect the idea that extra-musical circumstances can put people off of a performer, or some piece of music. I think that's as legit a reason to not want to listen to a piece of music as any. If music evokes bad feelings in someone due to certain associations, then they shouldn't listen to it. And I'm not in a position to tell anyone what they should or should have bad feelings about.
> 
> I don't think people need to be consistent about this either.


Where did bigshot imply that he was speaking for anyone but himself?

Anyone has a right to listen to or not listen to whatever they wish, without having to have a legitimate reason. But maybe don't go around partaking in moral posturing or to criticize a label for releasing music based on one's personal feelings, associations or choices. If you're not going to listen, just don't listen.


----------



## apricissimus

ManateeFL said:


> Where did bigshot imply that he was speaking for anyone but himself?
> 
> Anyone has a right to listen to or not listen to whatever they wish, without having to have a legitimate reason. But maybe don't go around partaking in moral posturing or to criticize a label for releasing music based on one's personal feelings, associations or choices. If you're not going to listen, just don't listen.


Are you accusing me of moral posturing? That wasn't my intent at all. Nor was I criticizing any label. I was just opining that I thought that it's a perfectly fine reason to avoid listening to music if you think the people who made it are bad people.

For what it's worth it did seem to me that bigshot may have been condescending a bit when he remarked, "I'm a grown up," which seems to imply that taking other things into account when listening to music, like the Nazi status of the musicians involved, is perhaps behaving like a child. But he can correct me if I'm wrong about that.


----------



## bigshot

I look at the histories of a lot of artists, and if I was going to judge their work by their personal character, I'd be missing out on a lot. And when it comes to Furtwangler, are his Nazi era recordings any different than his post war recordings? I let history live in the past and I live my life in the present. I try to do the best myself that I can and I try not to judge others.

My point with saying "I'm a grownup" is that children tend to see things in black and white. Adults can usually parse context and make their mind up for themselves . Listening to Nazi music doesn't turn one into a Nazi. I don't need to insulate myself from ideas I don't agree with. I can make up my own mind as an adult.

Like I say... feel free to avoid art made in circumstances you don't agree with, but you're the one losing out. Art is separate from the individuals who make it, or in this case the people who sat in the audience listening to it on the radio.


----------



## sbmonty

Mine arrived today. What exquisite attention to detail in the packaging. Listening to Brahms No. 4 now. I'm very pleased.


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## inthemusiczone

Clearly DG do not want to be outdone by the BPO box. This just announced:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/wilhelm-furtwaengler-complete-recordings-on-deutsche-grammophon-and-decca/hnum/9380525

Maybe an expert can speak to what is duplicated from the BPO box?


----------



## DavidA

bigshot said:


> I just listen to music. If I demanded that all artists be clean as the driven snow, there wouldn't be much art to appreciate. *I'm a grownup*. I can listen to Nazi music without being a Nazi myself.


Not a matter of being grown up. It's a matter of personal choice of where we draw the line. After the war certain Jewish artists like Menuhin decided to work with German conductors like Furtwangler in the name of reconciliation. Other Jewish artists like Tucker, Stern and Perlman drew the line at this. They felt they couldn't work with ex-Nazis. It wasn't a case of being grown up but of personal conscience. Same with this Furtwangler set. Mind you it would never make it to my shelves because most Furtwangler recordings I have now are so primitively recorded there is little pleasure in listening to them.


----------



## Larkenfield

DavidA said:


> Not a matter of being grown up. It's a matter of personal choice of where we draw the line. After the war certain Jewish artists like Menuhin decided to work with German conductors like Furtwangler in the name of reconciliation. Other Jewish artists like Tucker, Stern and Perlman drew the line at this. They felt they couldn't work with ex-Nazis. It wasn't a case of being grown up but of personal conscience. Same with this Furtwangler set. Mind you it would never make it to my shelves because most Furtwangler recordings I have now are so primitively recorded there is little pleasure in listening to them.


Furtwangle was NOT a Nazi. He was never a member of the Nazi party. Not a Nazi or an ex-Nazi, and the names you mentioned did not understand his position like Menuhin did and why he stayed in Germany. It's probably a complete waste of time to the closed-minded but this is what he said and I believe him:

"I knew Germany was in a terrible crisis; I felt responsible for German music, and it was my task to survive this crisis, as much as I could. The concern that my art was misused for propaganda had to yield to the greater concern that German music be preserved, that music be given to the German people by its own musicians. These people, the compatriots of Bach and Beethoven, of Mozart and Schubert, still had to go on living under the control of a regime obsessed with total war. No one who did not live here himself in those days can possibly judge what it was like. Does Thomas Mann [who was critical of Furtwängler's actions] really believe that in 'the Germany of Himmler' one should not be permitted to play Beethoven? Could he not realize that people never needed more, never yearned more to hear Beethoven and his message of freedom and human love, than precisely these Germans, who had to live under Himmler's terror? I do not regret having stayed with them."

That Furtwangler stayed in Germany did not make him a Nazi and he stood up to them and refused to conduct in France until it was no longer occupied. There are a number of examples of his resistance to them and how tedious it is to have to remind others what his position was who did not live there at the time and could not possible understand the conditions he was under. If you're referring to Itzhak Perlman, he was 9 years old when Furtwangler died and never met the man. I've found that his performances of the Beethoven symphony and many others transcend their sound quality in their power and authority. The true fans don't complain about that.


----------



## bigshot

I feel a need to make dead people into heroes nor villains. I can just listen to the music.


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## apricissimus

Does it matter whether they're dead or living?

Turns out James Levine was (is?) a major creep. Is it reasonable to not want to listen to his recordings because he makes your skin crawl?


----------



## DavidA

Larkenfield said:


> *Furtwangle was NOT a Nazi*. He was never a member of the Nazi party. Not a Nazi or an ex-Nazi, and the names you mentioned did not understand his position like Menuhin did and why he stayed in Germany. It's probably a complete waste of time to the closed-minded but this is what he said and I believe him:
> 
> "I knew Germany was in a terrible crisis; I felt responsible for German music, and it was my task to survive this crisis, as much as I could. The concern that my art was misused for propaganda had to yield to the greater concern that German music be preserved, that music be given to the German people by its own musicians. These people, the compatriots of Bach and Beethoven, of Mozart and Schubert, still had to go on living under the control of a regime obsessed with total war. No one who did not live here himself in those days can possibly judge what it was like. Does Thomas Mann [who was critical of Furtwängler's actions] really believe that in 'the Germany of Himmler' one should not be permitted to play Beethoven? Could he not realize that people never needed more, never yearned more to hear Beethoven and his message of freedom and human love, than precisely these Germans, who had to live under Himmler's terror? I do not regret having stayed with them."
> 
> That Furtwangler stayed in Germany did not make him a Nazi and he stood up to them and refused to conduct in France until it was no longer occupied. There are a number of examples of his resistance to them and how tedious it is to have to remind others what his position was who did not live there at the time and could not possible understand the conditions he was under. If you're referring to Itzhak Perlman, he was 9 years old when Furtwangler died and never met the man. I've found that his performances of the Beethoven symphony and many others transcend their sound quality in their power and authority. The true fans don't complain about that.


If you read what I said I was careful not to say that he was. However, he was the front man for Nazi musical culture.


----------



## DavidA

bigshot said:


> I look at the histories of a lot of artists, and if I was going to judge their work by their personal character, I'd be missing out on a lot. And when it comes to Furtwangler, are his Nazi era recordings any different than his post war recordings? I let history live in the past and I live my life in the present. I try to do the best myself that I can and I try not to judge others.
> 
> My point with saying *"I'm a grownup"* is that children tend to see things in black and white. Adults can usually parse context and make their mind up for themselves . Listening to Nazi music doesn't turn one into a Nazi. I don't need to insulate myself from ideas I don't agree with. *I can make up my own mind as an adult.*
> 
> Like I say... feel free to avoid art made in circumstances you don't agree with, but you're the one losing out. Art is separate from the individuals who make it, or in this case the people who sat in the audience listening to it on the radio.


The problem is some people would see you 'making your mind up as an adult' as compromising with the past. As I say it is a matter of personal conscience. You desire yours but your tone appears rather unwilling to allow others theirs/ I certainly wouldn't say that Jewish musicians who refused to work with ex-Nazis were acting as children. They were acting with their conscience.


----------



## bigshot

I don't compromise with the past. I listen to music. As I said, anyone can feel free to take what they think is the moral high ground, but music has absolutely nothing to do with Nazis. Hitler loved Disney cartoons, and Walt Disney was friends with Mussolini, but I don't hold that against Mickey Mouse. I can enjoy art associated with people who I wouldn't like in real life and it doesn't affect my appreciation of the art in the least. Art transcends the circumstances of its creation. I think Triumph of the Will and Birth of a Nation are both great films, but watching them and appreciating their merits doesn't make me a Nazi nor a member of the KKK. I think for myself. I encourage everyone to do that.


----------



## bigshot

apricissimus said:


> Does it matter whether they're dead or living?


It's harder to make living people into heroes or villains because they still have the ability to prove you wrong. Once they're dead, it's easy to paint their tomb any color you want.

I'm not terribly fond of Levine as a conductor, but I have a few of his recordings I like. Who he is makes no difference to me when I listen to them. I'm focused on the music.

This is actually one of the reasons I participate here in recordings rather than the general classical music forum. We tend here to focus on the music more, and we don't get dragged off as much into discussions about whether Wagner was a Nazi, or which composers were gay. It's nice to have a general understanding of the biographies and context for music, but that information should serve the appreciation of the music, not distract from it.


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## apricissimus

bigshot said:


> I don't compromise with the past. I listen to music. As I said, anyone can feel free to take what they think is the moral high ground, but music has absolutely nothing to do with Nazis. Hitler loved Disney cartoons, and Walt Disney was friends with Mussolini, but I don't hold that against Mickey Mouse. I can enjoy art associated with people who I wouldn't like in real life and it doesn't affect my appreciation of the art in the least. Art transcends the circumstances of its creation. I think Triumph of the Will and Birth of a Nation are both great films, but watching them and appreciating their merits doesn't make me a Nazi nor a member of the KKK. *I think for myself. I encourage everyone to do that.*


I think that choosing not to listen to certain musicians for extra-musical reasons can also fall under the rubric of "thinking for yourself."


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## WildThing

I actually don't know all that much if anything about the personal lives of most artists whose art I engage with, so deciding who or what to listen to based on the character of its creator is already a pointless and impossible process. I assume that all human beings are flawed creatures, but art and music celebrates our shared humanity and common ideals and aspirations.


----------



## bigshot

apricissimus said:


> I think that choosing not to listen to certain musicians for extra-musical reasons can also fall under the rubric of "thinking for yourself."


I guess it depends if you are listening for the musician or listening just for the music.



WildThing said:


> I assume that all human beings are flawed creatures


Except for the people who feel qualified to judge other people. That has been a job I've never wanted to take on myself.

In any case, I don't think refusing to listen to music by bad people makes you any more moral. It just makes you moralistic. I do understand that is the world we are living in though. People can rename the Lillian Gish theater or refuse to play Wagner if they want. But if they do that, they shouldn't assume that everyone will think more highly of them for doing that.


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## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> After the war certain Jewish artists like Menuhin decided to work with German conductors like Furtwangler in the name of reconciliation.


It wasn't in the name of reconciliation. Menuhin was DEFENDING Furtwangler as someone who opposed the Nazis from within. There was nothing to reconcile. Furtwangler was not a collaborator. He opposed Nazi policy to the extent he could without landing himself in a concentration camp, the same as other conscientious Germans who felt besieged by the Nazi madness. Furtwangler felt he could do more to oppose Nazism from within Germany than outside, and there is an argument that he was right. If mad, racist war mongorers took control of your country, would you abandon her and leave? Or would you stay and continue to fight from within the only way you could?


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## Brahmsianhorn

If you want to understand Furtwangler's position during the war, start first with this quote from him:

"There was never a Nazi Germany. There was a Germany ruled by Nazis!"


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## Larkenfield

apricissimus said:


> I think that choosing not to listen to certain musicians for extra-musical reasons can also fall under the rubric of "thinking for yourself."


One can think for oneself without misrepresenting other people historically. How would you like to be misrepresented? It was a terrible period in history in which Europe was set on fire and some of you have no idea what many of these people went through. It's all so easy in 20/20 hindsight. Furtwangler's presence in Germany was not approval of the Nazis and it's highly doubtful that his presence there prolonged the Nazi terror of total war one minute longer. Nor was everyone in Germany in favor of the war, but one could be killed for speaking out. Consider what it meant to the German people that there was at least some sense of sanity that could be found in the country through the musical arts until this unholy political terror had passed... and Furtwangler was riding out the storm. He felt that he was preserving the soul of German culture in the midst of the political vultures who were trying to destroy the country. His War recordings are incredible against the backdrop of violence, despotism and corruption.


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## bigshot

I just listen to music.


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## Brahmsianhorn

That’s another aspect rarely talked about. Within Germany, Furtwangler was in constant danger. He could be arrested by the Gestapo for any reason. In fact, he at last fled after being told by Albert Speer that his arrest was imminent. Had he emigrated at the beginning, he would have kept himself and his family safe throughout the war. Moreover, foreign orchestras would have fallen over themselves for his services. It was his devotion to German music and culture, not personal considerations, that kept him there.


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## apricissimus

Larkenfield said:


> One can think for oneself without misrepresenting other people historically. How would you like to be misrepresented? It was a terrible period in history in which Europe was set on fire and some of you have no idea what many of these people went through. It's all so easy in 20/20 hindsight. Furtwangler's presence in Germany was not approval of the Nazis and it's highly doubtful that his presence there prolonged the Nazi terror of total war one minute longer. Nor was everyone in Germany in favor of the war, but one could be killed for speaking out. Consider what it meant to the German people that there was at least some sense of sanity that could be found in the country through the musical arts until this unholy political terror had passed... and Furtwangler was riding out the storm. He felt that he was preserving the soul of German culture in the midst of the political vultures who were trying to destroy the country. His War recordings are incredible against the backdrop of violence, despotism and corruption.


I honestly don't know much about Furtwangler. But if, for any reason, whether rightly or wrongly, Furtwangler's music evokes thoughts of Nazis in my mind, I think it's totally legit to avoid Furtwangler in order to not have thoughts of Nazis in my head when I listen to music. I really don't think it has anything to do with making a rational calculated determination of the actual facts of the matter.


----------



## Manxfeeder

apricissimus said:


> I honestly don't know much about Furtwangler. But if, for any reason, whether rightly or wrongly, Furtwangler's music evokes thoughts of Nazis in my mind, I think it's totally legit to avoid Furtwangler in order to not have thoughts of Nazis in my head when I listen to music. I really don't think it has anything to do with making a rational calculated determination of the actual facts of the matter.


"Totally legit"? Isn't that instead closer to prejudice?

I think if he interrupted his concerts with "Heil Hitler" or paens to the Nazi regime, that would be a legitimate reason. But I get nervous if people start throwing someone on a trash heap solely because of what they think when they see/hear some person.

In fact, his 1942 performance of Beethoven's 9th with Hitler in attendance is one of anger and is widely seen as a slap in the face to the Furher. And actually, Goebbels wrote, "Furtwängler has never been a National Socialist. Nor has he ever made any bones about it, which Jews and emigrants thought was sufficient to consider him as one of them, a key representative of so-called 'inner emigration'. Furtwängler['s] stance towards us has not changed in the least."

Those are just my thoughts, because I've struggled with prejudices, just like everyone. There are several composers/conductors I didn't listen to because someone said something about them. When I encountered the music or the artistry, I discovered I was the one missing out.


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## Brahmsianhorn

It is a testimony to Furtwangler's cultural stature that he could get away with what he did. It sort of turned Nazism on its head. According to their own practices they should have thrown him in a concentration camp, except for the fact that he embodied the very culture they deemed to be superior to all others. Furtwangler really did represent what he said, the real Germany. I suspect that Hitler simultaneously loved and hated him.


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## bigshot

I don't think about Nazis when Furtwangler performs. I think about the music.


----------



## wkasimer

apricissimus said:


> Does it matter whether they're dead or living?


It does to me. Dead people don't collect royalties or receive concert fees based on my listening or attendance.


----------



## Guest

wkasimer said:


> It does to me. Dead people don't collect royalties or receive concert fees based on my listening or attendance.


That is important to me. I won't support a criminal low-life like Levine by purchasing anything he was involved in because the idea of benefiting him financially is objectionable. If the performer is dead that consideration vanishes and I don't see there is an imperative to avoid his or her work. But sometimes knowledge just creeps me out and takes the pleasure out of it.


----------



## DavidA

Baron Scarpia said:


> That is important to me. *I won't support a criminal low-life like Levine* by purchasing anything he was involved in because the idea of benefiting him financially is objectionable. If the performer is dead that consideration vanishes and I don't see there is an imperative to avoid his or her work. But sometimes knowledge just creeps me out and takes the pleasure out of it.


Criminal? Has Levine actually been convicted of any criminal offence? We might not approve of his actions but as far as I know they were not criminal. There is also the fact that if we strike off Levine there are quite a few others we might have to look at - living and dead - whose actions were, to say the least, morally questionable.


----------



## Guest

Rumours of sexual abuse have been floating around for decades. The New York Times did and in-depth investigation and tracked down victims to get their first-hand stories.

Multiple credible victims reported sexual molestation when they were minors. Levine's prestige and control over their future careers was used to suppress reporting at the time. The reports if true (and I am confident that at least some of them are) are clear felony violations. There are lots of prominent classical musicians who have been accused of harassment of various kinds. Child rape is in a different category, in my book.

Now, I fear, we are way off topic.


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## bigshot

I don't read internet forum posts by people I judge to have moral failings.


----------



## Guest

bigshot said:


> I don't read internet forum posts by people I judge to have moral failings.


Does paying $11,000 for an audiophile AC line cord count as a moral failing?


----------



## WildThing

bigshot said:


> I don't read internet forum posts by people I judge to have moral failings.


:lol:

I already bought and owned several Levine recordings before I heard anything about the accusations against him. So I guess I put money in his pocket. Oh well. If he did the things he's accused of, it's in the hands of the law, and has nothing to do with my listening choices. Bit I'll file it in the back of my mind and remember to feel guilty for enjoying his recording of Eugene Onegin the next time I put it on.


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## bigshot

Baron Scarpia said:


> Does paying $11,000 for an audiophile AC line cord count as a moral failing?


Only if the power cord was made in Germany during WW2


----------



## brunumb

Editorial Review:

"Set in Germany in 1946, this thoughtful political drama is based on the true story of Dr Wilhelm Furtwängler (played here by Stellan Skarsgård), Germany's leading conductor and head of the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra during World War 2. Following the end of the war and the collapse of the Third Reich, the allied forces are intent on imposing law and order on a bombed-out occupied Berlin, and are keen to set an example by being seen to prosecute an eminent public figure for Nazi collaboration. US Major Steve Arnold (Harvey Keitel) is sent, disguised as an insurance salesman, to investigate the strong and complex connections between Furtwängler and the Nazi regime. But to his dismay, nothing is as simple as he had hoped it would be, and his desire for a swift and ruthless prosecution is thwarted by the complex web of loyalties and politics in which he finds himself increasingly entangled."


----------



## gardibolt

inthemusiczone said:


> Clearly DG do not want to be outdone by the BPO box. This just announced:
> 
> https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/wilhelm-furtwaengler-complete-recordings-on-deutsche-grammophon-and-decca/hnum/9380525
> 
> Maybe an expert can speak to what is duplicated from the BPO box?


I'd like to know this as well....presumably all the wartime radio recordings, but that leaves a lot left over. I'm also not sure of what overlap there is with that box and the Audite box of postwar radio recordings with RIAS. Between the three that should cover most of his output, but presumably with substantial duplication. If the Decca/DG box can get down around $75 or so I'm probably in. These probably have not been remastered or going back to original tapes.


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## staxomega

If anyone purchased box set and is looking to sell their Furtwangler Society or Tahra discs (more interested in the former), feel free to send me a message


----------



## DarkAngel

I have had this for a few weeks, but just got round to checking it out, the deluxe package is really top shelf including very informative hardbound info/background book, I got mine at Amazon USA currently $212 prime.......

So it this the best sound available for Furtwangler wartime broadscasts, it is indeed!

*Compare wartime 9th 1942*
Music & Arts vs Andromeda vs Pristine XR vs New BP SACD box 
(not even considering old EMI/Warner at this point)

*M&A* has the least detailed most opaque sound, probably due to over filtering to reduce sound floor
*Andromeda* (2011) is very hot, initially sounds clear but you get fatigued quickly, thin shrill
*Pristine XR* has very nice mid level sound but overloads badly under full orchestra, needs better source material

*BP SACD* required noticeable volume level increase compared to others, easily best overall sound with cleanest crescendo and full orchestra parts, sound floor is present but needed to preserve this improved level of music detail, the slow sections could fool you that it is a modern recording really very nice.........fans must have


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## DarkAngel

^^^ Did I mention the package is really nice........


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## DarkAngel

Music Web has posted review of this boxset, short takeaway - these are best sound available of any version (as I also found comparing a smaller sample of alternative remasters)

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Apr/Furtwangler_Berlin_BPHR180181.htm



> In truth, these recordings will still prove challenging to many listeners, but they are worth the effort owing to the excellence of some of the Furtwängler performances and the historical context of the time. All told, these successful high-resolution digital transfers using original sources make this the best available set


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## Brahmsianhorn

DarkAngel said:


> Music Web has posted review of this boxset, short takeaway - these are best sound available of any version (as I also found comparing a smaller sample of alternative remasters)
> 
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Apr/Furtwangler_Berlin_BPHR180181.htm


Did you compare with Tahra?


----------



## DarkAngel

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Did you compare with Tahra?


Not me but author of Musicweb review above said............



> Although acceptable and the best available for their time, several of the Furtwängler releases, notably on Music & Arts, Tahra and Deutsche Grammophon have been overtaken.


Author also highly recommends a French source unknown to me previously, but still surpassed by new BP SACD set...........



> I've revisited some of the Beethoven recordings of the Société Wilhelm Furtwängler (SWF), France and I have to say that they have been impressively restored, especially the Beethoven Symphony No. 5 (1943). If all the contents of this new set don't appeal, I recommend searching out these individual SWF recordings.


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## DarkAngel

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Did you compare with Tahra?


BH soon I will be able to directly compare Tahra.......


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DarkAngel said:


> BH soon I will be able to directly compare Tahra.......


Where'd you find that? I thought Tahra went out of business, though I heard someone in Japan got the rights to repackage them


----------



## DarkAngel

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Where'd you find that? I thought Tahra went out of business, though I heard someone in Japan got the rights to repackage them


HMV Japan, a goldmine of Furtwangler, your jaw will drop really......


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Okay, found it on Japanese Amazon! 

Looks like the contents include:

CD 1 - Beethoven Symphony No. 3, 1944

CD 2 - Beethoven Symphony No. 5 and Piano concerto No 4, 1943

CD 3 - Beethoven Coriolan ovt, 1943; Symphony No. 6, 1944; Wagner Tristan Prelude and Liebestod, 1944

CD 4 - Schubert Rosamunde ovt, Mozart Symphony No. 40, 1944

CD 5 - Schubert Symphony No. 9, 1943 (Strange that they chose 1943/VPO over the famous 1942/BPO. I don't actually know the VPO)

CD 6 - Brahms, Haydn variations, Piano concerto No. 2 (w/Aeschbacher), 1943 

Of these the Eroica and Coriolan stand out. A shame they didn't include Beethoven's 9th. The Brahms concerto is kind of nuts, intense but the pianist kind of goes off on his own. Cannot comment on the Schubert symphony.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DarkAngel said:


> HMV Japan, a goldmine of Furtwangler, your jaw will drop really......


The Japanese love them some Furt. I once posted pics here of the 10-CD set I got from Japan in 1998. All of them were Deutsche Grammophon Originals using the 24-bit remastering. Never understood why they were not released as singles in the West.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Quite a gold mine, yes! This issue includes the 1949 Wiesbaden concert. Best Brahms 4th and Mozart 40th I've ever heard. Going to need a Japanese translator to tell me what's on the other 5 discs. :lol:


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

^

OMG, my favorite Bruckner 7th is included as well, Rome 1951. 

And the best Schubert 8th and 9th, 1953!!!!

Dammit, Dark Angel! There go my savings :tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Okay, found it on Japanese Amazon!
> 
> Looks like the contents include:
> 
> CD 1 - Beethoven Symphony No. 3, 1944
> 
> CD 2 - Beethoven Symphony No. 5 and Piano concerto No 4, 1943
> 
> CD 3 - Beethoven Coriolan ovt, 1943; Symphony No. 6, 1944; Wagner Tristan Prelude and Liebestod, 1944
> 
> CD 4 - Schubert Rosamunde ovt, Mozart Symphony No. 40, 1944
> 
> CD 5 - Schubert Symphony No. 9, 1943 (Strange that they chose 1943/VPO over the famous 1942/BPO. I don't actually know the VPO)
> 
> CD 6 - Brahms, Haydn variations, Piano concerto No. 2 (w/Aeschbacher), 1943
> 
> Of these the Eroica and Coriolan stand out.* A shame they didn't include Beethoven's 9th*. The Brahms concerto is kind of nuts, intense but the pianist kind of goes off on his own. Cannot comment on the Schubert symphony.













> Dammit, Dark Angel! There go my savings


I am good at spending others money, buy buy...........


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^^^link please?


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DarkAngel said:


> I am good at spending others money, buy buy...........




I do wonder if the new remasterings are better. Tahra is the gold standard for Furtwangler. They are somehow able to reduce surface noise while also enhancing the presence and body while making the sound as pleasant sounding as is possible.

I did compare the Coriolan and 9th symphony between Tahra and the new Berlin Phil set. My initial impression is the Tahra is still the go-to while the BPO set is for Furt freaks like me. Reason is that while the BPO transfers are exciting they are still more taxing on the ear compared to Tahra who took pains to "beautify" the sound. The BPO is more raw, which is exciting for Furt fans but not as good an option as Tahra if the goal is musical enjoyment. This is not to say the BPO set is bad quality by any means. Quite the opposite!

Of course the big advantage for the BPO over the Tahra is completeness. You are getting ALL the wartime BPO in an excellent package. All you miss are the essential wartime VPO recordings like the 1943 Eroica and 1944 Bruckner 8th. In that case all you have to do is order this handy Orfeo boxset:


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> It wasn't in the name of reconciliation. Menuhin was DEFENDING Furtwangler as someone who opposed the Nazis from within. There was nothing to reconcile. Furtwangler was not a collaborator. He opposed Nazi policy to the extent he could without landing himself in a concentration camp, the same as other conscientious Germans who felt besieged by the Nazi madness. Furtwangler felt he could do more to oppose Nazism from within Germany than outside, and there is an argument that he was right. If mad, racist war mongorers took control of your country, would you abandon her and leave? Or would you stay and continue to fight from within the only way you could?


This is of course the line taken by Furtwangler supporters. The situation of course was vastly more complicated than you make it out. He could've taken the line of Sophie Scholl or Bonhofer who were executed by the Nazis rather than becoming the front man for the Nazi culture. No one is saying that Furtwangler was a Nazi but he did allow himself to be used, along with a lot of other conductors and musicians, for Nazi purposes. Of course, sitting back many years later, it is easy to judge, and we can be thankful we don't have to make the same choices as they did, but to put it in a simplistic way as you do is very naive.


----------



## Larkenfield

DavidA said:


> This is of course the line taken by Furtwangler supporters. The situation of course was vastly more complicated than you make it out. He could've taken the line of Sophie Scholl or Bonhofer who were executed by the Nazis rather than becoming the front man for the Nazi culture. No one is saying that Furtwangler was a Nazi but he did allow himself to be used, along with a lot of other conductors and musicians, for Nazi purposes. Of course, sitting back many years later, it is easy to judge, and we can be thankful we don't have to make the same choices as they did, but to put it in a simplistic way as you do is very naive.


That's right. It's easy to judge… and yet a lot of that goes on around here repeatedly from the comfort of one's easy chair. From hearing his music, both during the war and after the war, in his performances, in his concerts, in his recordings… I have never heard the taint of Nazi identification or support in any of them. It's the only reason I can hear those recordings now and I consider that a miraculous achievement on his part in the midst of political thugs. I also believe that's the only reason why others can hear, venerate, and enjoy them. He did not remain in Germany on behalf of the Nazis; he was there for the Germain people, despite the Nazis, to ride out the terrible influences of those who were dedicated to total war, and I consider that one of the soul-saving bright spots of decency to preserve the authentic German culture during those violent and corrupt years. I side with Menuhin, who fully understood Furtwängler's position and difficult circumstances.


----------



## DavidA

Deleted..........................................................


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## DavidA

Larkenfield said:


> That's right. It's easy to judge… and yet a lot of that goes on around here repeatedly from the comfort of one's easy chair. From hearing his music, both during the war and after the war, in his performances, in his concerts, in his recordings… I have never heard the taint of Nazi identification or support in any of them. It's the only reason I can hear those recordings now and I consider that a miraculous achievement on his part in the midst of political thugs. I also believe that's the only reason why others can hear, venerate, and enjoy them. He did not remain in Germany on behalf of the Nazis; he was there for the Germain people despite the Nazis to ride out the terrible influences of those who were dedicated to total war, and I consider that one of the soul-saving bright spots of decency in German culture during those terrible years. I side with Menuhin who fully understood Furtwängler's position.


It is a matter of personal conscience. I don't have a problem listening to post-war Furtwangler (or other german conductors who conducted for the Nazis - they didn't run the death camps) but I would have a problem listening to those war time recordings from Germany thinking of the thugs who made up the audiences. I think to 'hear and venerate them' is going a bit far when they were conducted under the Nazi flag in the presence of those who were committing such atrocities. You only have to look at the pictures of the time. However, each man to his conscience. 
One conductor who will never be on my shelves is the fascist Reginald Goodall, who was a traitor to his own country, making pro German statements, during the war at a time when my own father was risking his life on the battlefield. Even after the war, Goodall was unrepentant, saying Belsen was British fiction manufactured in a leading movie studio. And to think such a man received a knighthood by the British government is sickening to me.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> This is of course the line taken by Furtwangler supporters. The situation of course was vastly more complicated than you make it out. He could've taken the line of Sophie Scholl or Bonhofer who were executed by the Nazis rather than becoming the front man for the Nazi culture. No one is saying that Furtwangler was a Nazi but he did allow himself to be used, along with a lot of other conductors and musicians, for Nazi purposes. Of course, sitting back many years later, it is easy to judge, and we can be thankful we don't have to make the same choices as they did, but to put it in a simplistic way as you do is very naive.


I stated very clearly in my post that he resisted Nazism to the extent he could without landing himself in a concentration camp. I don't know what else there is to add. Leaving Germany wouldn't have put him in line with Sophie Scholl either, would it?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> ^^^^^^^link please?


https://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Cla...onic-Legendary-Concerts-1949-1954-6CD_9924347

HMV uses 3rd party wallet system (lawson) to make visa payments for order, be aware that visa is vigilant for fraud and may decline a large order overseas if you have never used them before

They love SACD, HDCD, Blu Spec etc in Japan, goldmine of Furtwangler, Knap, Walter, old HVK etc
Use your browser English translator......


----------



## bigshot

If the SACD box set wasn't so expensive, I could probably forgive the Naziism.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I came upon this discussion in an old news group, and it echoes perfectly my thoughts on Hurwitz as well as others who try to explain away when people hear something that they themselves do not. (Another example is Ralph Moore’s review of the ‘51 Knappertsbusch in his survey of Parsifal recordings)


Entirely unsympathetic to the viewpoint of the Furtwängler admirer
that he caricatures, Hurwitz is not content to dissent from that
viewpoint and explain the reasons for his dissent, which would be
perfectly legitimate. Incapable of imagining how any sane person
could admire a performance lacking the very high level of precision he
insists on, Hurwitz goes much further, claiming that the Furtwängler
fan is deaf, blindly partisan, and irrational, and—therefore—
discredited a priori. As an admirer of the music of such composers as
Elliott Carter, I’m completely familiar with Hurwitz’s strategy, which
might be called the strategy of the psychologizing ad hominem. Like
the typical Furtwängler fan caricatured by Hurwitz, the fan of
Carter’s music is supposed to be a blindly partisan wacko, deaf to
what any sane person actually hears—and what “any sane person hears”
in Furtwängler’s performances or Carter's music, of course, is
nothing. Only the wacko cultist could possibly admire Furtwängler ’s
performances or Carter’s music, or so the slander goes.

This argument lets the critic off the hook and allows him to overcome
the irritation he experiences when others claim to hear something in a
Furtwängler performance or Carter’s music that eludes him: I don't
hear anything in it, but it's not my fault. Only the insane or the
irrational claim to hear anything in Furtwängler’s performances or
Carter’s music.

Nice to see this “argument” used on Furtwängler’s admirers instead of
Carter’s for a change. Thanks, Mr. Hurwitz!

-david gable


----------



## DarkAngel

51 Bayreuth

BH I am going to try one of these studio generated "stereo" recordings, I have had very good results with Callas albums in 1970s that EMI issued with studio re-channeled stereo.......most people who dismiss these usually just repeat what they read somewhere, I have very high end audio gear and they sound great

Reviews at HMV Japan claim the choral sections really expand in dramatic fashion revealing new details


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I stated very clearly in my post that he resisted Nazism to the extent he could without landing himself in a concentration camp. I don't know what else there is to add. Leaving Germany wouldn't have put him in line with Sophie Scholl either, would it?


We are in agreement then. Furtwangler co-operated with the Nazis but no more (or less) than other German conductors like Bohm, Knappersbusch, Karajan, etc.. Having read the of great courage of people who were in the resistance, these guys do not emerge as heroes. What you can say is that they didn't actually take part in the atrocities although subsequent information has crept out about Bohm which is not flattering to his reputation. Myself I could not listen to these wartime broadcasts knowing the audience of thugs that was listening at the time who were culpable in the atrocities. But each to his own conscience.


----------



## Adamus

they were not listening, but sitting there.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> We are in agreement then. Furtwangler co-operated with the Nazis but no more (or less) than other German conductors like Bohm, Knappersbusch, Karajan, etc.


I know you have read enough to know this is not true, so why do you write such a slander? You know very well that unlike those other conductors, Furtwängler opposed the Nazi regime. He refused to join the party, objected to their racial policies (forcing him to temporarily resign at one point), and assisted Jews in escaping. This has all been chronicled and written about thoroughly.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I know you have read enough to know this is not true, so why do you write such a slander? You know very well that unlike those other conductors, Furtwängler opposed the Nazi regime. He refused to join the party, objected to their racial policies (forcing him to temporarily resign at one point), and assisted Jews in escaping. This has all been chronicled and written about thoroughly.


Not slander at all. He conducted for the Nazis. He was their cultural front man. History.

'In his post as leader of the Berlin Philharmonic until early in 1945, Furtwängler participated frequently in festivals and concerts in Nazi Germany. From the perspective of the Nazi leadership, as Germany's military situation grew more and more threatening, Furtwängler became increasingly valuable as a cultural ambassador who could promote German music throughout the Axis and occupied lands. Furtwängler toured throughout Europe, despite being boycotted in the Hague and Belgium and protested in many other cities, trying to preserve the reputation of his homeland. In 1936, he was offered a position with the New York Philharmonic, but Nazi pressure along with US protests discouraged him.
At the same time, Furtwängler never completely bowed to Nazi authority. He consistently protested the presence of flags and the Hitler salute in concert halls. After the annexation of Austria, at the request of the members of the Vienna Philharmonic, he took over leadership in an attempt to use his influence to protect its Jewish and leftist members (he managed to assist several of them). He frequently tried to avoid playing for Hitler's birthday, although he was eventually forced to. In 1944, he was the only prominent German artist not to sign the brochure 'We Stand and Fall with Adolf Hitler'. However, it was not until the war grew close to an end, and German defeat was certain, that he finally left the Third Reich, fleeing to safety in Switzerland.'

The history is complicated, not simple as you make out. Furtwangler had difficult choices to make. Whether he made the right ones still divides opinion. One just hopes we are never again in that situation. However, naive admiration in the face of historical record will not do.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> Not slander at all. He conducted for the Nazis. He was their cultural front man. History.
> 
> 'In his post as leader of the Berlin Philharmonic until early in 1945, Furtwängler participated frequently in festivals and concerts in Nazi Germany. From the perspective of the Nazi leadership, as Germany's military situation grew more and more threatening, Furtwängler became increasingly valuable as a cultural ambassador who could promote German music throughout the Axis and occupied lands. Furtwängler toured throughout Europe, despite being boycotted in the Hague and Belgium and protested in many other cities, trying to preserve the reputation of his homeland. In 1936, he was offered a position with the New York Philharmonic, but Nazi pressure along with US protests discouraged him.
> At the same time, Furtwängler never completely bowed to Nazi authority. He consistently protested the presence of flags and the Hitler salute in concert halls. After the annexation of Austria, at the request of the members of the Vienna Philharmonic, he took over leadership in an attempt to use his influence to protect its Jewish and leftist members (he managed to assist several of them). He frequently tried to avoid playing for Hitler's birthday, although he was eventually forced to. In 1944, he was the only prominent German artist not to sign the brochure 'We Stand and Fall with Adolf Hitler'. However, it was not until the war grew close to an end, and German defeat was certain, that he finally left the Third Reich, fleeing to safety in Switzerland.'
> 
> The history is complicated, not simple as you make out. Furtwangler had difficult choices to make. Whether he made the right ones still divides opinion. One just hopes we are never again in that situation. However, naive admiration in the face of historical record will not do.


Nothing you just wrote contradicts what I wrote. We are both in agreement that he stayed. But when you equate him to conductors like Bohm and Karajan, you pretend like the other part of the story - his active opposition to the regime - does not exist. That is a misrepresentation of the true history, which has been extensively chronicled in books you can find on Amazon.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Nothing you just wrote contradicts what I wrote. We are both in agreement that he stayed. But when you equate him to conductors like Bohm and Karajan, you pretend like the other part of the story - his active opposition to the regime - does not exist. That is a misrepresentation of the true history, which has been extensively chronicled in books you can find on Amazon.


You are actually the one who us insisting on misrepresenting history. I just present the facts. He co-operated with the regime.


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

DavidA said:


> You are actually the one who us insisting on misrepresenting history. I just present the facts. He co-operated with the regime.


So you think he should have started a revolution against the government?


----------



## DavidA

Johnnie Burgess said:


> So you think he should have started a revolution against the government?


I am not saying anything. Just presenting the facts.


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

DavidA said:


> I am not saying anything. Just presenting the facts.


Furtwangler was not the only conductor in Germany at that time. Do you hold the other conductors to that same standard?


----------



## DavidA

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Furtwangler was not the only conductor in Germany at that time. Do you hold the other conductors to that same standard?


Who has said anything about standards?


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

DavidA said:


> Who has said anything about standards?


Do you condemn the other conductors in Germany during the time of Hitler?


----------



## DavidA

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Do you condemn the other conductors in Germany during the time of Hitler?


As a historian it is not my job to condemn or condone but to present the facts.

Bruno Walter, in a letter to Furtwängler dated January 1949, wrote: "Please bear in mind that your art was used over the years as an extremely effective means of foreign propaganda for the regime of the devil: that you, thanks to your fame and great talent, performed valuable service for this regime and that in Germany itself the presence and activities of an artist of your rank helped to provide cultural and moral credit to those terrible criminals or at least gave considerable help to them…in contrast to that, of what significance was your helpful behaviour in individual cases of Jewish distress?"

Of course it could well apply to every other conductor in Germany during the war.

What do you think?

I'm listening to Karajan conducting music by the Jewish Mendelssohn, which he incidentally had clandestine scores of during the war. Complicated isn't it?


----------



## bigshot

I only participate in the recordings section of this board because the general classical music forum is overrun by discussions of topics completely unrelated to the music.

To get the discussion back to music, here are some transfers I did of historical recordings...

Parsifal: Prelude To Act I (1927)
Max Von Schillings / State Opera Orchestra, Berlin (12:25)
http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/wagnerbetweenwars04.mp3

Richard Wagner: Parsifal - Scene of the Flower Maidens (1927)
Max Von Schillings / State Opera Orchestra, Berlin
http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/wagnerbetweenwars06.mp3

Richard Wagner: Parsifal - Good Friday Spell (1927)
Max Von Schillings / State Opera Orchestra, Berlin
http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/wagnerbetweenwars07.mp3

Richard Wagner: Parsifal - Finale to Act III (1927)
Max Von Schillings / State Opera Orchestra, Berlin
http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/wagnerbetweenwars08.mp3


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

DavidA said:


> As a historian it is not my job to condemn or condone but to present the facts.
> 
> Bruno Walter, in a letter to Furtwängler dated January 1949, wrote: "Please bear in mind that your art was used over the years as an extremely effective means of foreign propaganda for the regime of the devil: that you, thanks to your fame and great talent, performed valuable service for this regime and that in Germany itself the presence and activities of an artist of your rank helped to provide cultural and moral credit to those terrible criminals or at least gave considerable help to them…in contrast to that, of what significance was your helpful behaviour in individual cases of Jewish distress?"
> 
> Of course it could well apply to every other conductor in Germany during the war.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> I'm listening to Karajan conducting music by the Jewish Mendelssohn, which he incidentally had clandestine scores of during the war. Complicated isn't it?


Do you go onto threads on Karajan and bring up his history during the time of Hitler?


----------



## DavidA

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Do you go onto threads on Karajan and bring up his history during the time of Hitler?


Absolutely. Karajan used the Nazi Party as a springboard for his own ambitions - and they used him because of his growing stature as a conductor. Of course he fell out of favour with the Nazis long before the end of the war. Not that was his intention! But as has been pointed out this thread is not related to the music.


----------



## Triplets

David
I’m an American Jew, from a family of Holocaust survivors, and I’ve read multiple Furtwangler biographies. His relationship with Nazism was complicated, to say the least. He certainly wasn’t a perfect man, and while no Nazi, he was a German Nationalist. Hitler was able to co-opt many German Nationalists into his schemes . Many of the ardent Resistance members were German Nationalist, including the ones that attempted to kill him. Suffice to say that WF was not a fire breathing Nazi and that he sometimes did things to thwart the regime.
Can I listen to performances that had the scum of the Earth in the audiences?. Hell, why not? The notes of music don’t perform morality checks before they leave the players instruments. I currently sit in Concerts in Chicago with Captains of The Industry Capitalist One Percenters who commit God Knows what evil in Board Rooms before assuming their seats. The World is less than perfect. If one had eliminate all of the Great Art produced through the centuries for the benefit of scoundrels, the World would be much poorer place.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> You are actually the one who us insisting on misrepresenting history. I just present the facts. He co-operated with the regime.


You are not presenting facts. You are omitting them. Furtwängler only cooperated with the regime to the extent he had to. In many important and sometimes life-saving ways he opposed the regime. To equate what he did with the at best neutral position of Karajan is intellectually dishonest.

Again, Menuhin for example did not perform with Furtwängler to "reconcile." He was defending the conductor against the smear campaign lodged against him.

Whether Furtwängler ultimately hurt or benefitted the Nazi regime is up for debate. What is NOT up for debate is where his sympathies lay and what motivated his actions in their opposition. THAT is the reason for Menuhin's coming to his defense.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> You are not presenting facts. You are omitting them. Furtwängler only cooperated with the regime to the extent he had to. In many important and sometimes life-saving ways he opposed the regime. To equate what he did with the at best neutral position of Karajan is intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Again, Menuhin for example did not perform with Furtwängler to "reconcile." He was defending the conductor against the smear campaign lodged against him.
> 
> Whether Furtwängler ultimately hurt or benefitted the Nazi regime is up for debate. What is NOT up for debate is where his sympathies lay and what motivated his actions in their opposition. THAT is the reason for Menuhin's coming to his defense.


Sorry mate. You are not presenting the facts as your own biased view of Furtwangler reveals. Menuhin was an idealist who played with other German conductors who had been involved with the Nazis anyway. He played with Karajan as well. As far as Menuhin's views are concerned they are just as problematic as anyone else's, of course. They were just his opinions as were Walter's. You think Walter was wrong then?


----------



## DarkAngel

bigshot said:


> I only participate in the recordings section of this board because the general classical music forum is overrun by discussions of topics completely unrelated to the music.
> 
> To get the discussion back to music, here are some transfers I did of historical recordings...
> 
> Parsifal: Prelude To Act I (1927)
> Max Von Schillings / State Opera Orchestra, Berlin (12:25)
> http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/wagnerbetweenwars04.mp3
> 
> Richard Wagner: Parsifal - Scene of the Flower Maidens (1927)
> Max Von Schillings / State Opera Orchestra, Berlin
> http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/wagnerbetweenwars06.mp3
> 
> Richard Wagner: Parsifal - Good Friday Spell (1927)
> Max Von Schillings / State Opera Orchestra, Berlin
> http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/wagnerbetweenwars07.mp3
> 
> Richard Wagner: Parsifal - Finale to Act III (1927)
> Max Von Schillings / State Opera Orchestra, Berlin
> http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/wagnerbetweenwars08.mp3


Those sound great for 1927, just the begining of the "electrical" recording age 

They have those tracks at Presto UK also, did a quick compare you have lower surface noise and cleaner bass and low mids (much reduced rumble)


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> Sorry mate. You are not presenting the facts as your own biased view of Furtwangler reveals. Menuhin was an idealist who played with other German conductors who had been involved with the Nazis anyway. He played with Karajan as well. As far as Menuhin's views are concerned they are just as problematic as anyone else's, of course. They were just his opinions as were Walter's. You think Walter was wrong then?


My statement about the debate as to whether Furtwängler ultimately helped or hurt the regime speaks to Walter's opinion. What is NOT up for debate is where Furtwängler's sympathies lay or his actions to oppose the regime. The fact that you equate Karajan holding on to a Mendelssohn manuscript to Furtwängler going out of his way to save the lives of Jewish musicians shows just how far you will go to deny reality and twist facts in defense of your beloved Herbie. As a Jew myself I can say unequivocally that you are wrong here. And whatever criticisms Walter had, I guarantee you he would not equate Furtwängler's conduct of well-intentioned naïveté with Karajan's conduct of amoral indifference.


----------



## bigshot

DarkAngel said:


> Those sound great for 1927, just the begining of the "electrical" recording age  They have those tracks at Presto UK also, did a quick compare you have lower surface noise and cleaner bass and low mids (much reduced rumble)


Thanks! I really like these performances. I took my time restoring them. It's amazing what's buried in the grooves, but record labels don't always have the time and patience.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> My statement about the debate as to whether Furtwängler ultimately helped or hurt the regime speaks to Walter's opinion. What is NOT up for debate is where Furtwängler's sympathies lay or his actions to oppose the regime. The fact that you equate Karajan holding on to a Mendelssohn manuscript to Furtwängler going out of his way to save the lives of Jewish musicians shows just how far you will go to deny reality and twist facts in defense of your beloved Herbie. As a Jew myself I can say unequivocally that you are wrong here. And whatever criticisms Walter had, I guarantee you he would not equate Furtwängler's conduct of well-intentioned naïveté with Karajan's conduct of amoral indifference.


I can say that you are denying reality and twisting facts in defence of your beloved Furtie. I think I made it clear that the stone cold facts were that Karajan was interested in furthering his career. He made his moves one would in a chess game. Furtwangler was interested in preserving his. You really are being very naive. And don't give me this nonsense about 'beloved Herbie'. I am not at all condoning his behaviour during the war as you appear to be condoning Furtwanglers.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> I can say that you are denying reality and twisting facts in defence of your beloved Furtie.


What facts am I twisting?


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> What facts am I twisting?


 Never mind its pointless having any firm of rational discusiion with you. Furtwangler is your hero and can do no wrong! Actually the thread is about the recordings not the character of the man himself. Just a comment that I could not play the recordings myself due to the circumstances in which they were made which was end of the third Reich and the thugs which are in the audience


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> Just a comment that I could not play the recordings myself due to the circumstances in which they were made which was end of the third Reich and the thugs which are in the audience


And yet you have no problem endlessly prompting the recording legacy of the thug who joined the Nazi party in his native Austria in 1933, five years before it was annexed by Germany.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> And yet you have no problem endlessly prompting the recording legacy of the thug who joined the Nazi party in his native Austria in 1933, five years before it was annexed by Germany.


 And you have no problem in endlessly promoting the man who conducted for the thugs. Your problem is that you can't see things in the rationale of history that things tend to be far more complicated than an extremely naive view and you seem to be wrapped up in your emotional view of things. I am willing to except the verdict of history and the denazification trials which took place after the war at which both conductors were cleared of any war crimes. To me I am then free to listen to their recordings they made after the war although I do balk at hearing the recordings they made in Germany during the war to the Nazis . Of course certain people due to their consciences have different views which I respect. Certain Jewish artist wouldn't work with H v K or Furtwangler after the war due to their consciences. People have different views which I respect. I never know quite how they felt about Bohm who it has emerged was far more pro Nazi and anti-Jewish in his opinions than either of them! If people want to listen to these wartime recordings it is their conscience not mine.
The problem is how far down the line do you go? If you listen to Bernsteins Falstaff then I gave read that the first horn of the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra at the time was an active Nazi during WW2. Should we listen to it or should we let bygones be bygones?
As I said I'm just interested in the facts of history and I make my own judgements upon them not for you but for me.


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## Brahmsianhorn

^

Your judgments are arbitrary. The only common theme is that you do whatever benefits your idol Karajan. Is there any doubt that if the apex of Karajan's recorded legacy had occured during the war you would have every single one of those recordings in your possession?


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> ^
> 
> Your judgments are arbitrary. The only common theme is that you do whatever benefits your idol Karajan. Is there any doubt that if the apex of Karajan's recorded legacy had occured during the war you would have every single one of those recordings in your possession?


Karajan is not my idol. He happens to be one of many conductors in my (over large) record collection. If I have idols among men they are certainly not conductors! :lol: I don't want to be rude that you are talking absolute rubbish in saying that. You are obviously driven by an emotional stance which drives out any form of objective judgment. You don't seem to realise that your own judgements are completely arbitrary and not based on any form of historical judgement whatsoever. I have given you the facts of history and make my judgements upon them. I'm afraid what you say is totally misguided and absolutely wrong. There is no point in continuing this discussion as you are not being rational and in addition as others have pointed out we are talking about the recording is not about moral judgements upon any particular conductor. So please desist.


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## bigshot

I like how this keeps going on and on and no one seems to see what I did.


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## Larkenfield

bigshot said:


> I like how this keeps going on and on and no one seems to see what I did.


 Your remasters were excellent but perhaps unexpected because no one knew that you had such an interest. Maybe you can say more on how you went about doing them and your interest in Furtwängler's remarkable recordings. It's too bad that DG couldn't have hired you to fix some of von Karajan's misguided efforts. I've never heard of any other conductor criticized as much for the falsity of the commercial sound of some of his recordings, and he's still taking heat for it, unlike Furtwängler.


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## crispi

This thread has long moved on from discussing the actual box that is the topic, the Berliner Philharmoniker's *Wilhelm Furtwängler - The Radio Recordings 1939-1945* 22-SACD box set, but I just got the box and have been listening to it a lot lately. I posted this sound review in a different forum, but here it is for those interested.

I don't have any of the Tahra releases to compare with, only two recordings previously reissued by DG, but I will offer my general impressions.

First off: the elephant in the room. Yes, some stereo ambiance was added to these mono recordings. However, it is very minimal. There is no distracting phasing going on, and were you to push the MONO button on your amp, it would disappear without much trace. Listening on headphones is a more pleasant experience for me as it actually manages to eliminate a layer of "historicity" associated with these old recordings. I noticed that I actually listen to the music more instead of concentrating on the sound's shortcomings. I must add that the added ambiance is only noticeable on headphones, and not on my speakers.

There is plenty of noise floor typical of these very early magnetic tape recordings and a few instances of hum or electric noise-usually a sign that they have not tampered with the sound too much. I didn't hear any evidence of digital filtering of the treble in order to bring down the occasional noise or distortion. If digital noise reduction has been applied, then it was done with care and in an inaudible way. I know that some of the audience noise has been removed-you may have your own opinion about this, I personally salute the work, as I don't need to hear every cough and creak.

There is a little bit of variance in terms of audio quality. Some recordings sound fuller than others, depending on source, but no real outliers (there is one movement, noted in the booklet). Some recordings sound surprisingly clear, such as Bruckner 5, Schubert 9, Mozart 39, Beethoven Coriolan, Beethoven 5 (from 1943), Beethoven Piano Concerto 4 (with Conrad Hansen), Schumann Cello Concerto (with Pierre Fournier, partial), Brahms Haydn Variations, Brahms 4, Beethoven Violin Concerto, Strauss Sinfonia domestica.

I compared the Mozart 39 with the mastering on the Deutsche Grammophon CD source. They are likely from the same source, probably the tape copy DG has had all these years. It sounds much better on this new transfer, and some of the audience noise has been reduced. The Bruckner 9 is another recording I previously had on DG-here the differences are less obvious.

Exact sources are listed in the booklet for each of the recordings. I've typed them up for you:

Wilhelm Furtwängler
Symphonic Concerto (w/ Edwin Fischer) - original shellac from German Radio archives

George Frideric Handel
Concerto grosso, op. 6 no. 5 - original shellac from German Radio archives
Ludwig van Beethoven 
Symphony No. 5 - original shellac from German Radio archives

Richard Strauss
Verführung · Waldseligkeit · Liebeshymnus · Winterliebe - German tape copy
Don Juan - Russian Radio tape copy

Richard Wagner
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg: Prelude - film soundtrack of the Reichsrundfunk, copy

Robert Schumann
Piano Concerto - original master tape, restituted by Russia
Ludwig van Beethoven
Symphony No. 7 - Russian Radio tape copy

Ludwig van Beethoven
Symphony No. 9 - Russian Radio tape copy & original master tape

Christoph Willibald Gluck
Alceste: Overture - German tape copy
Robert Schumann
Cello Concerto (w/ Tibor de Machula) - original master tape
Anton Bruckner
Symphony No. 5 - original master tape

Johannes Brahms
Piano Concerto No. 2 (w/ Edwin Fischer) - original master tape
Richard Wagner
Tristan und Isolde: Vorspiel & Liebestod - original master tape

Heinz Schubert
Hymnic Concerto - original master tape
Franz Schubert
Symphony No. 8 "Die Große" - original master tape

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Symphony No. 39 - German tape copy

Jean Sibelius
En saga - original master tape
Violin Concerto (w/ Georg Kulenkampff) - original master tape

Ludwig van Beethoven
Symphony No. 4 (without audience) - tape copy & original master tape
Symphony No. 4 (with audience) - Russian Radio tape copy & original master tape
Coriolan, Overture - original master tape
Symphony No. 5 (1943) - German tape copy

Ernst Pepping
Symphony No. 2 - Russian Radio tape copy
Ludwig van Beethoven
Piano Concerto No. 4 (w/ Conrad Hansen) - German tape copy

Anton Bruckner
Symphony No. 6 (incomplete) - original master tape
Robert Schumann
Cello Concerto (w/ Pierre Fournier, incomplete) - original master tape
Richard Strauss
Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche - German tape copy

Johannes Brahms
Variations on a Theme by Haydn - original master tape
Piano Concerto No. 2 (w/ Adrian Aeschbacher) - German tape copy
Symphony No. 4 - original master tape

Ludwig van Beethoven
Violin Concerto (w/ Erich Röhn) - original master tape
Richard Strauss
Symphonia domestica - original master tape

George Frideric Handel
Concerto grosso, op. 6 no. 10 - Russian Radio tape copy
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Symphony No. 39 (1944) - Russian Radio tape copy

Carl Maria von Weber
Der Freischütz: Overture - original master tape
Maurice Ravel
Daphnis et Chloé, Suite No. 1 (incomplete) - original master tape
Daphnis et Chloé, Suite No. 2 - Russian Radio tape copy
Ludwig van Beethoven
Symphony No. 6 "Pastorale" - Russian Radio tape copy

Anton Bruckner
Symphony No. 9 - German tape copy
Franz Schubert
Symphony No. 7 "Unvollendete" - German tape copy & original master tape - the original tape contains a fast intermittent hum throughout the 2nd mvt., hinted at in the booklet

Johannes Brahms
Symphony No. 1:
4. Adagio - Allegro non troppo, ma con brio - tape copy

The package also lists the recordings from the each broadcast which have not survived.


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## DarkAngel

^^^ Great overview Crispi, your catalog of source media is so good *I printed it out and put it in the boxset book* for future reference!

In the book it takes some work with tiny print multi-language and spread out over many pages.......
The high price is hard to swallow, but this set does deliver on best sound quality and luxury level package


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## bigshot

Larkenfield said:


> Your remasters were excellent but perhaps unexpected because no one knew that you had such an interest. Maybe you can say more on how you went about doing them and your interest in Furtwängler's remarkable recordings. It's too bad that DG couldn't have hired you to fix some of von Karajan's misguided efforts. I've never heard of any other conductor criticized as much for the falsity of the commercial sound of some of his recordings, and he's still taking heat for it, unlike Furtwängler.


I'd be happy to talk about how I do my transfers. I have a lot more good ones that I would be happy to share. Maybe I'll start another thread for that.

What I was referring to though was the recordings themselves. Those are conducted by Max Von Schillings, who was one of Furtwangler's mentors. If you want to know what a bona fide Nazi conductor looks like, he is the poster child. Karajan and Furtwangler only get blamed for it because they survived Nazi Germany. But Von Schillings is the one who can really take credit for promoting the cause of Nazism through classical music.

Von Schillings had a falling out with the Prussian Minister of Culture and turned to ultra-right wing causes, claiming to work to "protect German culture from foreign influences". In 1931, The National Socialists began to promote him and his music, and he was appointed to the directorship of the Prussian Academy of Arts. He promptly fired every Jew on staff there, including Schoenberg, and blackballed them to make sure they couldn't be appointed anywhere else in Germany. He is the one who came up with the concept of "decadent art". A real nasty piece of work. He died in 1933, before getting a chance to see what his anti-Semitism would end up accomplishing. No one really mourned him when he died because his ruthlessness even alienated the hardcore National Socialists who had promoted him.

All that being said, his opera Mona Lisa is very well thought of to this day, and his recordings, particularly of Wagner are definitive for the period. Not a nice person, but he could make wonderful music. I think these recordings are wonderful and well worth listening to.

History is interesting, and you can learn a lot from it, but music is music, and we shouldn't blame music for the faults of the people who make it. That is my point.


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## bigshot

crispi said:


> There is plenty of noise floor typical of these very early magnetic tape recordings and a few instances of hum or electric noise-usually a sign that they have not tampered with the sound too much. I didn't hear any evidence of digital filtering of the treble in order to bring down the occasional noise or distortion. If digital noise reduction has been applied, then it was done with care and in an inaudible way.


There are several ways to eliminate nose... Broadband noise reduction, dynamic noise reduction, impulse noise reduction, pattern based noise reduction and editing.

Broadband is when you soften the higher frequencies to eliminate harshness. Too much of that ends up muffling the sound. This is what most people think of when they complain about noise reduction.

Dynamic noise reduction applies a broadband filter, but adjusts it according to the volume level of the signal... more noise reduction in the quieter parts where human hearing isn't as sensitive, and less in louder parts where we can hear the detrimental effects of broadband noise reduction more easily. Too much of this can create a "pumping sound" where the sound quality changes with the volume.

With impulse noise reduction, the filter analyzes the waveform looking for transients that are quicker than any real world transient. When it locates a click or pop by its sharp attack, it eliminates it, replacing it with pink noise matched to the sound around the click. The noise being removed is so small, and the patch is so well matched to the surrounding music, it is pretty much imperceptible. The only problem with impulse noise reduction is when it hits a gunshot pop where the damage to the groove is so great, the needle can't track it properly. These tend to have a trail where the noise dissipates, and the filter often can't replace that long a stretch. When this happens, there is a low frequency "bump" sound. It's better than the gunshot pop though. You can hear bump artifacts all the time in commercial releases of old recordings. The bump can be mitigated with EQ if there isn't much low frequency content in that part of the music.

Pattern based noise reduction is a digital filter that samples a section of the silent lead in groove to determine what the surface noise of the record sounds like. It then applies the same pattern at reverse phase, cancelling out the surface noise. This works well with rumbles and hum, but with records that have wear, it may not do such a good job at the inner grooves because the wear pattern of the lead in groove might be quite different than the lead out groove. The solution for this is the apply two or more filters to a record side, sampling different quiet parts for each part of the side and cross dissolving them in and out. (not always easy to do)

Editing is simply cutting out one bit of sound and pasting it over another. This is how you remove coughs. You just take one bit of audience room tone and paste it over another part where someone coughs. You can also fix parts that "blast" that way. For instance if a trumpet blast distorts in the inner grooves, you can sometimes find an identical trumpet blast in another part of the record that you can paste over the top of it. This kind of thing takes some skill, but it is easy to experiment and see what works with digital cut and paste.

Every record requires a combination of all of these kinds of noise reduction. And each one of these filters has a sensitivity setting that ranges from no change to massive sound massacre. How well it turns out depends on how well the person doing the work is able to use each tool to its strengths, minimizing audible artifacting.

I learned to do this by restoring two recordings... Schnabel's Diabelli Variations and Walter's 1935 Die Walkure Act 1. I restored each one of these at least three times, spending hundred of hours experimenting and figuring out what each tool was capable of and learning how and where to apply them. I figured out how to minimize the notorious UK HMV "bacon and eggs crackle" and worked out a way to apply noise reduction and EQ ito bring out stuff in the recording that can't normally be heard. I don't do much of it any more. It's pretty time consuming and there's not a lot of way to make the number of hours involved pay for themselves. I'm happy to share the restorations I did though.


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## gardibolt

bigshot said:


> I'd be happy to talk about how I do my transfers. I have a lot more good ones that I would be happy to share. Maybe I'll start another thread for that.
> 
> What I was referring to though was the recordings themselves. Those are conducted by Max Von Schillings, who was one of Furtwangler's mentors. If you want to know what a bona fide Nazi conductor looks like, he is the poster child. Karajan and Furtwangler only get blamed for it because they survived Nazi Germany. But Von Schillings is the one who can really take credit for promoting the cause of Nazism through classical music.
> 
> Von Schillings had a falling out with the Prussian Minister of Culture and turned to ultra-right wing causes, claiming to work to "protect German culture from foreign influences". In 1931, The National Socialists began to promote him and his music, and he was appointed to the directorship of the Prussian Academy of Arts. He promptly fired every Jew on staff there, including Schoenberg, and blackballed them to make sure they couldn't be appointed anywhere else in Germany. He is the one who came up with the concept of "decadent art". A real nasty piece of work. He died in 1933, before getting a chance to see what his anti-Semitism would end up accomplishing. No one really mourned him when he died because his ruthlessness even alienated the hardcore National Socialists who had promoted him.
> 
> All that being said, his opera Mona Lisa is very well thought of to this day, and his recordings, particularly of Wagner are definitive for the period. Not a nice person, but he could make wonderful music. I think these recordings are wonderful and well worth listening to.
> 
> History is interesting, and you can learn a lot from it, but music is music, and we shouldn't blame music for the faults of the people who make it. That is my point.


Agreed that von Schillings is a monster, but he also did the first recording of Also sprach Zarathustra (abridged, I believe), so that's of historic importance too. Any chance that's one of the ones you've cleaned up?


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## bigshot

No I'm afraid I never ran across that one. That would be interesting. I have restorations of Mahler 9 Walter/VPO, an early electrical of Stravinsky conducting Firebird, Walter Walkure Act 1, Schnabel Diabelli and Eroica Variations, an early FFRR of Munch conducting the Reformation Symphony, Busch Handel Concerto Grosso Op 6, Rodzinski Traubel Walkure Act 3, some Kajanus Sibelius, Gluck Orfeo and Euridice Stiedry Ferrier, Meistersinger act III Bohm 1938, various Melchior and Flagstad, Stravinsky conducting Rite 1940.

I have stacks of interesting things I haven't had the time to transfer. The interest kind of dried up when CDs started going south, so I stopped. I still love this stuff myself though.


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## DarkAngel

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Where'd you find that? I thought Tahra went out of business, though *I heard someone in Japan got the rights to repackage them*


I have some of these now from HMV Japan and you are correct, King International (Japan) 2018 released these to celebrate Furtwangler 65 year (death 1954)



> https://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Clas...54-6CD_9924347
> 
> HMV uses 3rd party wallet system (lawson) to make visa payments for order, be aware that visa is vigilant for fraud and may decline a large order overseas if you have never used them before


The shipping cost is very high because they use EMS international priority mail, very fast delivery took only 1 week to USA from Japan.....3 days just to clear customs and leave Japan

You can also notify VISA in advance that you will be making purchases from HMV Lawson so they will know to accept these charges.....

*1942 Berlin vs 1943 Stockholm B9

*This 4CD Tahra set allows direct comparison between these two wartime B9s, and I like the live 43 Stockholm better!

Timings are very close and subjectively close to the same dramatic intensity, without question the sound quality is better with 43 Stockholm (record source) which tips the scales in its favor, definitely this B9 is a must have for Furtwangler fans..........

This would be a nice pick-up, two 43 Stockholm B9s...........


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## Brahmsianhorn

The Stockholm 9th has always been considered the weakest of his 11 recordings, and I must say rehearing it this morning confirmed that in my opinion. The sound is better, as you say, but I hear nothing special going on except for the interpretive earmarks of Furtwangler. It just is not as inspired, especially compared to the 1942 BPO. I guess the one obvious improvement is that the soprano does not crack at the end. 

The 1952 VPO is excellent, however. This is my 4th choice for Furtwangler 9ths after the wartime March 1942, 1951 Bayreuth, and 1954 Lucerne.


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## DarkAngel

Brahmsianhorn said:


> The Stockholm 9th has always been considered the weakest of his 11 recordings, and I must say rehearing it this morning confirmed that in my opinion. The sound is better, as you say, but I hear nothing special going on except for the interpretive earmarks of Furtwangler. It just is not as inspired, especially compared to the 1942 BPO. I guess the one obvious improvement is that the soprano does not crack at the end.
> 
> The 1952 VPO is excellent, however. This is my 4th choice for Furtwangler 9ths after the wartime March 1942, 1951 Bayreuth, and 1954 Lucerne.


There are few recordings of 43 Stockholm B9, you can still buy a new Music & Arts version from its website.

I had a different take my first listen, I thought it matched the intensity level of 42 Berlin with better sound, of course the Stockholm Orchestra is not the BP orchestra, will have to revisit later to form a more confident opinion where this ranks among Furtwangler B9s........but the Japan B9 Tahra release did include it "implying" it is one of top 4 versions, hmmmmm.....








Music & Arts


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## Brahmsianhorn

Well, with all due respect to Japanese Tahra, I think the original Tahra grouping of the best Furtwangler B9s is closer to the mark.


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## Gondowe

I wrote this in other thread, but I think is more aprppiate here.
Can anybody tell me if the sound of the Pristine editions of, say, Beethoven 5th 1943 or Bruckner 8th 1944, is better than the pseudo-stereo made in japan and can be finded in youtube?
Thanks and greetings


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## bluto32

To those of you who have the following set from Japan:









King International Records have acquired the rights to reissue lots of Tahra CDs, but their website states that they have remastered the recordings. (Translated from Japanese: "Moreover, in the King Sekiguchidai studio, all new remasters are being performed, and the sound quality is further refined.")

I am particularly interested in the March 1942 and final August 1954 performances. How does the sound in this Japanese 4-disc release compare to (i) previous Tahra releases, which were often heralded as the best available at the time, or (ii) other available remasterings such as M&A, Melodiya, Pristine etc.?


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## staxomega

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Well, with all due respect to Japanese Tahra, I think the original Tahra grouping of the best Furtwangler B9s is closer to the mark.


Agreed, these are the best transfers.

Mainly came to this thread to ask - is there an online discography for everything the Furtwangler Society has released?


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