# The reaction to secular themes in music?



## Ephemerid (Nov 30, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly brought up the topic of music based on secular themes in literature which got me to thinking about another question:

*What was the first major oratorio/opera/dramatic work (?) that dealt with a non-religious subject? And what was the reaction by people and in particular the Catholic and Protestant churches?*

The earliest major work that comes to my mind is Monteverdi's Orfeo...? 

I'm just curious to know-- and what would the reaction have been at the time? When you think about the fact that music in Europe up thru the Middle Ages was 99% religious, wouldn't this have been a rather revolutionary change in music?

Even the function of sacred music changed-- music went from something like a mass by Machaut (intended for performance in an actual mass) to a mass Mozart which was intended for CONCERT performance-- that is a HUGE difference!

How did that happen? Who was (or were) the first to enact this change? And what was the reaction by their contemporaries? Thoughts? Ideas?

~josh


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

'I'm just curious to know-- and what would the reaction have been at the time? When you think about the fact that music in Europe up thru the Middle Ages was 99% religious, wouldn't this have been a rather revolutionary change in music?'

i do not believe that is accurate. that percentage does not take into account taverns, dancing, folk music, etc.

dj


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## Ephemerid (Nov 30, 2007)

True, but that has always been the case in all cultures at all times-- but I'm talking about the development in classical music. In terms of the evolution of classical music this was, I believe, unprecedented. 

How gradual was this process, or how sudden was it? I am not aware of many major exceptions to the rule prior to the Renaissance (no Machaut, Perotin, Palestrina et al that I am aware of). Next thing you know, you've got Monteverdi writing LOVE SONGS! Was this received by THOSE audiences and supporters with open arms? Or did anyone really notice the shift?

~josh


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## dsunlin (Feb 19, 2008)

One of Monteverdi's operas was called _The Return of Ulysses to His Country_. I was really surprised to hear about that. It's quite good, too.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Whoa! Back up to the 1300's and Guillaume de Machaut - LOTS of secular songs., dances, Virelai, etc.
J'aim sans penser




Tuit mi penser (virelai) 




Three voice Ballade ~ Amours me fait désirer 




Puis qu'en oubli (polyphonic chanson)




This is not so great a leap form this chanson to a Monteverdi Madrigal
Lasciate mi morire





Some dance music.








All of a piece, doesn't sound very 'Sacred' to me, anyway 

The genre(s), which existed before 1300 -- many another fine and fun composer from the mid-to late 1200's -- ran in a continuum through the renaissance, added spice and vitality coming by way of the Moorish occupation of Spain and semitic - both Arabic (Muslim) and Sephardim (Jewish) - influences.

This makes something like Monteverdi's Zefiro Torna less a sudden improbability. I use this link often - because it is a 'pop'ular song by an 'art' composer, for the most part simple strophic form, for a small band, two singers, and percussion: all that parallel to a contemporary pop group, drumming included - to show people 'back then' liked a good tune and something to dance to, and a 'party,' as well as people do now. 
The impulse to sing and dance, well, nothing new at all.
Monteverdi ~ Zefiro Torna





ADD: Michael Praetorius' (1571 - 1621) wonderful collection of earlier period dance music -- about three hundred tunes -- 'Terpsichore' here, a link with but a few.


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## sah (Feb 28, 2012)

Troubadours in the Middle Ages were often nobles, e.g. Richard the Lionheart (s. XII), and they wrote secular music.
Reinassance humanists were interested in Greek and Latin classics. I don't think there is any reason to suppose secular themes were a "surprise".

By the way, the first opera seems to be_ Dafne_ by Jacopo Peri, according to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera

Another "by the way": originally, oratorios were religious. _Oratio_: prayer.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

sah said:


> ... Another "by the way": originally, oratorios were religious. _Oratio_: prayer.


Right, to the present, Oratorio still generally has only religious themes.

The other non-staged vocal / choral form of some sort of story-telling is the Cantata, which may or may not be about either sacred or secular themes.

There are all those Bach Cantatas, but at least one, "The Coffee Cantata" is resolutely secular


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

How dare you, blasphemer! Coffee is God









To try and be a little on topic I would say that there was certainly music associated with passion plays which developed from simple ceremonies to complex entertainments. Passion plays fell out of fashion and were suppressed shortly before the rise of opera and oratorios but they were the direct precursors. The music was probably much more folk than religious even when on religious subjects.

The idea that there were massive shifts from a Taliban-like all religious musical landscape to secular is far too simple, both traditions played along side to varying degrees, it is just unfortunate that the secular works are the ones usually lost.


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