# Long-winded music



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Last night, while listening to Brahms' Piano Concerto No. 1 I realised how long-winded it was. The first movement alone is like the length of say, a Mozart concerto. Sometimes composers take a long time to make their point, but often alot of interesting things happen when they go off the highway of the main themes and explore little byways and sidestreets. In the Brahms, this lead to some good things happening, alot of beautiful ideas came out in the process.

But in other works, sometimes the waffling goes on for too long. Look at Richard Strauss' _Also Sprach Zarathustra_. Everyone remembers the first two minutes (no doubt its use in the film _2001: A Space Odyessy _helped), but does the next half hour of meandering here and there really make an impression or serve a purpose?

So tell us about some good and bad examples of how composers have written long-winded works.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I think the subjective length of a piece is inversely proportional to how much you enjoy it. *Vaughan-Williams *Tallis Fantasia seems to race by to me, while *Beethoven*'s _Rondo a Capriccio for piano in G major ("Rage Over a Lost Penny"), Op. 129 _and his _Variations and Fugue for Piano in E flat major, Op. 35 (Eroica Variations)_ both seem to drag on for hours and hours. Of course none of these pieces are very long at all.

You mention *Strauss*' _Also Sprach Zarathustra_. I can see where it might seem long and meandering, but I just about memorized every note when I was younger and couldn't afford a lot of albums. So for me it doesn't ramble at all, but is the exact length it needs to be.

Most lengthy pieces are fascinating to me. The *Mahler *symphonies come to mind. I'm not a huge fan or familiar enough to hum along, but I have always enjoyed and appreciated these mammoth compositions.

The only lengthy pieces I can think of that I find tedious are perhaps some pieces by *Gorecki*, the 3rd Symphony for instance. Also some minimalist works can get tedious when the length increases. _Koyaanisquatsi_ is a truly interesting film to watch, but I cannot abide the *Phillip Glass* music on its own, though I love his shorter pieces in _Metamorphosis for piano._


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

Bruckner's symphonies are quite lengthy but I enjoy them, but for really long boring works I would put Wagner at the top of my list, not intending to upset his followers


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

> Look at Richard Strauss' _Also Sprach Zarathustra_. Everyone remembers the first two minutes (no doubt its use in the film _2001: A Space Odyessy _helped), but does the next half hour of meandering here and there really make an impression or serve a purpose?


To answer this question would mean a need to accept your subjective opinion (which seems to fail to recognise the reason 'everyone knows' the first 2 minutes) of meandering. Not only do I not accept that, but I find the more delightful music in the next 30 minutes. Not only that, you do realise it is program music?

Mahler's 3rd symphony, at 1.5 hours long, captures me throughout. Listening and hearing the motifs throughout the movement and the symphony. The emotive journey.

By default, anyone who writes a 'low-winded' piece is writing a bad piece because the term long-winded has so much baggage of negativity to it.

There are lengthy pieces, that are indeed over-the-top (the ending of Beethoven 5th), and Stravinsky was right in what he famously said. But by calling lengthy pieces long-winded you are already dismissing them.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

Here we go again


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

I guess Yagan missed the memo from the mods. 

I also keep getting annoying private messages from him.

Oh well....

To get back on topic, I like those long epic pieces, but not all of them. It depends greatly on who I'm listening to, but perhaps if you have a short attention span, then it might be harder for you to digest those longer pieces.

Symphonies, for example, I try and break up and listen to very studiously. Small symphonic works like tone poems are easier for me to take in in one setting.

It all comes down to the person listening I suppose.


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

Andante said:


> Bruckner's symphonies are quite lengthy but I enjoy them, but for really long boring works I would put Wagner at the top of my list, not intending to upset his followers


I can agree with this. I'm not a big Wagner guy anyway. The only pieces I like of his were his overtures and preludes. Other than that, you can keep the rest of that opera stuff.


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

Erik Satie's Vexations. Now there's a long winded piece!!


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

Regarding Bruckner; Yes! he can sound long-winded, but if one was to try and compress his music as some have tried to do, then his symphonies sound very un-balanced.
Regarding Mahler; I still struggle with the final movement of the sixth symphony, but hey! it's worth the struggle!!...


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

All I'm going to say is Mahler.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

This is by its very nature a subjective business, isn't it? A 1-hour lecture can be terminally dull to someone who can't follow it, but rivetting to someone who can.

Wagner has been mentioned, and I can understand why - after all, there really is a lot of him, and it's very easy to suppose that he could have said what was necessary in a smaller space. But no Wagner opera has ever seemed too long, to me. I specifically remember one magical performance of _Gotterdammerung_ in the 70s with ENO and Rita Hunter as Brunnhilde - it was a summer evening, stiflingly hot, extremely uncomfortable; but when it was over, the whole thing seemed to have been far, far too short, and I'd have been glad to sit through it all again!

A composer who has the 'long-winded' effect on me is Bantock. Almost everything he writes seems somehow self-indulgent, as if he didn't know when to stop. But I'm sure this is just because I don't quite 'get' his music, and that if I understood it better, it would all seem perfectly acceptable.


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

> I guess Yagan missed the memo from the mods.


To not use ad hominems? I don't. So that's safe.



> I also keep getting annoying private messages from him.


I said that I argue because I love music. You said you are disgusted with me (or something offensive like that), my msgs are hardly annoying. The only reason they are annoying is you can't get over me having a different opinion.



> To get back on topic,


I was on topic, I was talking about the topic. Why are you so aggressive for no reason? Get off you high horse please.

You seem to obsessed about following me around and attacking me but not my arguments. Makes me wonder if there is something in that.


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## Lang (Sep 30, 2008)

Andre said:


> But in other works, sometimes the waffling goes on for too long. Look at Richard Strauss' _Also Sprach Zarathustra_. Everyone remembers the first two minutes (no doubt its use in the film _2001: A Space Odyessy _helped), but does the next half hour of meandering here and there really make an impression or serve a purpose?
> .


Half-hour of meandering? I do find some of the comments made in this forum to be extraordinary. Perhaps if you come to Also Sprach through 2001, then perhaps you expect it to be all like the initial fanfare and are disappointed. If you listen to it as a piece of music you will have the most wonderful, varied, and emotionally intense journey.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Weston said:


> and his _Variations and Fugue for Piano in E flat major, Op. 35 (Eroica Variations)_ both seem to drag on for hours and hours.






JTech82 said:


> Symphonies, for example, I try and break up and listen to very studiously. Small symphonic works like tone poems are easier for me to take in in one setting.


You mentioned Pettersson in other thread... I would currently add some of his symphonies here. I should definitely explore his 55 minute second violin concerto.



> A composer who has the 'long-winded' effect on me is Bantock.


Ever heard Omar Khayyam? My off the air recording stands for three and a half hours.

Just to name a few:
Reger's violin concerto
the third symphony by Ropartz
some symphony by Richard Wetz

I wouldn't cite Bruckner, Strauss or Wagner here, though.


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> You mentioned Pettersson in other thread... I would currently add some of his symphonies here. I should definitely explore his 55 minute second violin concerto.


I can honestly say that I'm not a fan of Pettersson's work. Way too dark and it stays in one mood the entire time. I prefer the bipolar tendencies of Mahler anyday. 

I've only met two Pettersson fans in my life and both of them are manic depressives.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Yagan Kiely said:


> To answer this question would mean a need to accept your subjective opinion (which seems to fail to recognise the reason 'everyone knows' the first 2 minutes) of meandering. Not only do I not accept that, but I find the more delightful music in the next 30 minutes. Not only that, you do realise it is program music?
> 
> By default, anyone who writes a 'low-winded' piece is writing a bad piece because the term long-winded has so much baggage of negativity to it...But by calling lengthy pieces long-winded you are already dismissing them.


I agree that the term I used, long-winded, is laden with baggage, as you say, but I couldn't think of any other way to name this thread. Maybe waffling or faffing? But those would've been a bit too wierd.

About Richard Strauss, I guess to even out my criticism of _Zarathustra_, I have to say that I like his _Metamorphosen_. Maybe the fact that it's connected with his post-war experiences makes it more relevant to me generally than the epic quality of his symphonic poems. That having been said, I agree that it's a very subjective topic. What someone might find boring could be for another person a thrilling journey. Like I find it difficult to stay focused on Mahler's longer symphonies (and song cycles), but others above find them to be rewarding experiences.

And someone mentioned Satie above. I think this is very pertinent, becuase as most of his pieces are not very long, they were deliberately written to serve no great purpose. He is the person who came up with the concept of lounge music, music that serves no other purpose than say as an accompaniment or background to something else. So it's like music that's filling in time.

I suppose that in some of these pieces, the journey itself is more important than the destination.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Weston
> and his Variations and Fugue for Piano in E flat major, Op. 35 (Eroica Variations) both seem to drag on for hours and hours.


Sorry to alarm. Rest assured that Beethoven is still the greatest most profound composer of all time in my roster. It's just this piece and a couple of others that I do not enjoy. I won't go into too much detail why, lest others catch this affliction and stop enjoying it too.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Andre said:


> I agree that the term I used, long-winded, is laden with baggage, as you say, but I couldn't think of any other way to name this thread. Maybe waffling or faffing? But those would've been a bit too wierd.


I think the term is fine, and surely most of us know pretty well what you mean: 'long-winded' aptly describes the impression created when we're squirming about waiting for a piece of music to end when it's overstayed its welcome. All we're doing is comparing notes about the responses that certain composers elicit in us, and the names that are coming up tend to be the ones we might expect. (I don't suppose many people would describe William Boyce's symphonies as long-winded, for example, whereas people like Wagner and Bantock are almost certain to attract a few yawns with some people).


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

> I think the term is fine, and surely most of us know pretty well what you mean: 'long-winded' aptly describes the impression created when we're squirming about waiting for a piece of music to end when it's overstayed its welcome.


Everyone knows that. But given this, how do you have good and bad examples of something that is by default bad?

You can have good or bad examples of a lengthy pieces, but long-winded pieces are always bad.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Yagan Kiely said:


> You can have good or bad examples of a lengthy pieces, but long-winded pieces are always bad.


You're right of course. A work can't be long-winded and good at the same time. But I think most of us aren't concerned so much with the precision of Andre's terminology, but more with the whole idea of long-windedness - and are using this thread just to chat about the works that we find 'long-winded', and perhaps discover why or how works that are merely 'long' might seem 'long-winded' to us.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

For what it's worth I was thinking that maybe it's the inability of the piece to capture the imagination of the listener, or that today we have become so used to 'cheep thrills now' that we don't devote enough energy to enjoying a 'good story' any more, that is the source of the problem.

Admittedly, there are pieces which do not command the listeners attention and, although quite short, seem 'long winded'; but there are many great, lengthy masterpieces which keep us rivveted (if we allow them) to the edge of our seats. So, are we not partly to blame? 

It's not such a obejective subject as you might at first think.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I'm an unapologetic fan of the *er*s (Wagner/Bruckner/Mahler)- so anything I say should naturally be considered in that light.

To bring up a previously cited work, I find R. Strauss's _Zarathustra_ to be one of his most densely packed works. Now the _Alpine Symphony_, on the other hand...

No doubt there are those who would find Strauss's _Rosenkavalier_ sprawling and containing broad periods of time where interest flags. I happen to find it sprawling yet fascinating, which is the feeling I get (but to an even greater degree) with virtually all of Wagner's output. For me, it's the same story with most Bruckner, and almost all of Mahler.

We should keep in mind that Wagner's music tends to elicit more extreme reactions than Bruckner or Mahler- so we should consider the possibility that those who reject Wagner for its length likely have other reasons for reacting in that manner. [If they didn't, we could expect similar responsive polarities with Bruckner & Mahler too, right?!]


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## Lang (Sep 30, 2008)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> To bring up a previously cited work, I find R. Strauss's _Zarathustra_ to be one of his most densely packed works. Now the _Alpine Symphony_, on the other hand...


I agree completely with both assessments.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

post-minimalist said:


> Admittedly, there are pieces which do not command the listeners attention and, although quite short, seem 'long winded'; but there are many great, lengthy masterpieces which keep us rivveted (if we allow them) to the edge of our seats. So, are we not partly to blame?


I'm sure we are. The difficulty is in deciding in any particular case whether the perceived long-windedness really is arising from 'me', or 'the composer' - or even 'both'. My guess is that with a major composer like Mahler or Bruckner, the long-windedness I might perceive is probably more to do with my limitations than the composer's. With someone like Bantock, who probably isn't of the first rank (this is arguable, I know), I'm less sure, and think it might well be a bit of both.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> No doubt there are those who would find Strauss's _Rosenkavalier_ sprawling and containing broad periods of time where interest flags. I happen to find it sprawling yet fascinating


Interesting choice. _Rosenkavalier_ has had a huge personal influence on me, and yet even now, I still can't help but wish it had been trimmed a bit. I love it, but I've always found it, to use our current term, 'long-winded'.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> Interesting choice. _Rosenkavalier_ has had a huge personal influence on me, and yet even now, I still can't help but wish it had been trimmed a bit. I love it, but I've always found it, to use our current term, 'long-winded'.


Long-winded or not, it's easily one of my favorite operas. In a way it's a good thing that there are a few 'dull' passages because three hours plus of music as beautiful as the Marschallin's monologue, the presentation of the rose and the act 3 trio would mean that I'd be an emotional wreck by the time the opera is finished.

Strauss can do little wrong with me though. I love the operas, the lieder and the tone poems (including the Alpensinfonie).


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> In a way it's a good thing that there are a few 'dull' passages because three hours plus of music as beautiful as the Marschallin's monologue, the presentation of the rose and the act 3 trio would mean that I'd be an emotional wreck by the time the opera is finished.


That's as good a reason as any for _not_ letting me chip away at its 'dull' bits!


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I often think Mahler's 7th is a bit long-winded, but then again it is the least tonal of his works, and I am really not entirely used to twisted tonality yet, at least not twisted to _this_ degree. Shostakovich is just fine.

Some of Mahler is long-winded, but I think overall there are much more long-winded composers out there. My friend and I came up with a reason for Beethoven's long-winded finales: he thinks his audience has forgotten what key the piece is supposed to be in, so he hammers it into us by giving us 16-20 staccato chords of the home key, in varying formations just to make sure everyone's got it. And then one long note just for kicks.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

World Violist said:


> My friend and I came up with a reason for Beethoven's long-winded finales: he thinks his audience has forgotten what key the piece is supposed to be in, so he hammers it into us by giving us 16-20 staccato chords of the home key, in varying formations just to make sure everyone's got it. And then one long note just for kicks.


I really chuckled to read this idea of Beethoven's fatherly approach, making sure we've all got the message. 'And don't forget your handkerchief and your lunchbox.'


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

World Violist said:


> I often think Mahler's 7th is a bit long-winded, but then again it is the least tonal of his works, and I am really not entirely used to twisted tonality yet, at least not twisted to _this_ degree. Shostakovich is just fine.
> 
> Some of Mahler is long-winded, but I think overall there are much more long-winded composers out there. My friend and I came up with a reason for Beethoven's long-winded finales: he thinks his audience has forgotten what key the piece is supposed to be in, so he hammers it into us by giving us 16-20 staccato chords of the home key, in varying formations just to make sure everyone's got it. And then one long note just for kicks.


Beethoven, long winded finales? I find them to be too short, I never want the piece to end!

I've got a weakspot for finales though, the longer it takes, the beter it is! 

Talking about long winded, Brahms comes up in my head. In some of his pieces he just keeps going back to the first theme over and over again!


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## shsherm (Jan 24, 2008)

Most of Wagner's operas are pretty long winded. He must not have read Shakespear "Brevity is the soul of whit". Of course the John Cage 639 year composition may take the record for longest of all.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

shsherm said:


> Most of Wagner's operas are pretty long winded. He must not have read Shakespear "Brevity is the soul of whit".


But to set against that, we have the words of the philosopher Hilary Putnam, which I slightly misquote here: 'Anything that can be put in a nutshell belongs there.'


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## Lang (Sep 30, 2008)

... and one point that needs to be made. Long-windedness is, to an extent, in the eye of the beholder. And unfortunately so many of us these days seem to suffer from a mild version of ADHD.


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## frankmfm (Mar 11, 2009)

I have sat in concerts and found myself irritated and bored listening to music that has nothing in it that holds my interested - and it might not even be that long. I think 'long-windedness' has less to do with the length of the piece, but more in the lack of interesting or appealing material in the music itself.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

mueske said:


> Talking about long winded, Brahms comes up in my head. In some of his pieces he just keeps going back to the first theme over and over again!


For example?



> I think 'long-windedness' has less to do with the length of the piece, but more in the lack of interesting or appealing material in the music itself.


In some cases, it has to do with the performer. Last year, while attending a concert by Shlomo Mintz he made me wish the Beethoven concerto lasted less 15 minutes.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> For example?


As I said in the opening entry on this thread, Brahms' _Piano Concerto No. 1_ (the first movement) is long-winded but, as I said, I really like some of the little byways he takes, alot of great moments arise when he explores different themes and ideas. The same can be said of his other concertos. Compared to those by Bruckner and Mahler, Brahms' symphonies are quite compact, but he really does let go and become more rhapsodic in the concertos. I think this is a good thing. He obviously decided to tackle the concerto genre in a different way. I think his concertos are quite epic and grand, but they also have intimate moments, when the soloist/s are able to mull over some of the themes in more detail.

On the weekend, I was just listening with a friend to the Bernsteing/Kremer/Maisky recording of the _Double Concerto _& it was superb. As in his other concertos, there is a long first movement, followed by two shorter movements, the finale employing Hungarian tunes. This is the least popular of his concertos, but it really has some great moments, and I would recommend it to anyone who likes the other concertos. It's a great piece, very profound but quite listenable.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2009)

Elgarian said:


> But to set against that, we have the words of the philosopher Hilary Putnam, which I slightly misquote here: 'Anything that can be put in a nutshell belongs there.'


Tut tut old chap, how about minimalism, I thought you would be a fan of it


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Andante said:


> Tut tut old chap, how about minimalism, I thought you would be a fan of it


If I were a minimalist, my study would be a lot tidier than it is.


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> For example?
> 
> In some cases, it has to do with the performer. Last year, while attending a concert by Shlomo Mintz he made me wish the Beethoven concerto lasted less 15 minutes.


Last movement of his second symphony is somewhat of a job for me to get through.


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