# What makes a legendary conductor?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I suggest that it’s at least partially recording a lot of music for major labels at times when people are building (or rebuilding) their record collections. You can consider conductors such as Toscanini, Walter, Karajan, Bernstein, and so forth in the light of their primary labels and the periods when people were replacing their collections of recordings:

- LP records – 1950s
- Stereo LPs – 1960s and 1970s
- CDs – Early 1980s and after

After almost 40 years, the CD remains the preferred medium for most people simply because no new medium has come along that offers significant added benefit for most people in terms of fidelity of sound, convenience, price, durability, or longevity.

I read some time ago that the highest-earning conductors for the classical labels are still Karajan and Bernstein. Is that entirely because they’re so much better than everybody else? Or were they simply in the right place at the right time?


----------



## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

Interesting thought. I do love Karajan and Bernstein. In fact, if I had to chose my "favorite" conductor it might well be Bernstein. His lectures, TV programs, composing and performing were such an inspiration to me in my formative years.

When it comes to records these days we are surely spoiled for choice! I love it!
And yes, I did switch from LP to CD beginning in the 80's. I currently have about 40,000 CDs in my library...and it's growing. I haven't learned the online music things. Oh, well.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Those legendary conductor's reputations were made in a different era, when classical was much more mainstream, when it figured prominently in the media. Newspapers and magazines had real, qualified critics. Concerts were broadcast on radio and TV. Records came later. Some of the legends were in movies. There were two great DVDs called the Art of Conducting which are great overviews of the legendary, Golden Age. These were the guys (sorry, ladies) that numerous biographies were written about. They may not have had the clearest, most beautiful stick technique. Some of them were lousy score readers. Some had a limited repertoire. But they had that certain something else: charisma. And an aura of authority that vaulted them into being a Legend. And those guys were legends in their own time - every one of them. The likes of Stokowski, Koussevitsky, Toscanini and Furtwangler were larger than life when they were active. The large number of recordings they've left have solidified their status. There have been many conductors in recent decades who I think are every bit as good as the Legends, but given how marginalized classical has become, these baton wavers will never become legendary. Muti, Abaddo, Blomstedt, Mehta, and others are just fantastic musicians and conductors. But sadly, they never got the media attention they would have in an earlier era.


----------



## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> Those legendary conductor's reputations were made in a different era, when classical was much more mainstream, when it figured prominently in the media. ...


I think it may have more to do with the fact that when these "legendary" guys were making their careers, the only way you could hear this type of music was live at the concert hall, and later on radio and recordings. I'm not so sure that classical music was any more "mainstream" in the 40s and 50s than it is now. One huge difference I suppose is the philosophical mindset over the past 50 years or so that purposely denigrates anything that might seem "elitist" or otherwise offensive to certain political sensibilities. Classical music isn't held in high regard because in truth not much of anything is held in high regard anymore.
Another huge difference now is that we're awash in whatever music on demand 24/7/365.


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine (Jul 4, 2020)

People who have been to either Karajan or Berstein's concert say the most unbelievable thing as if the sound is from another planet and that the recordings do not capture everything.

I have been to great many concerts in Europe and in the US, but I have never experienced anything that extraordinary.

So there might be something else to their legendary status, maybe it's just charisma and projection.


----------



## Guest (Jul 13, 2020)

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> People who have been to either Karajan or Berstein's concert say the most unbelievable thing as if the sound is from another planet and that the recordings do not capture everything.
> 
> I have been to great many concerts in Europe and in the US, but I have never experienced anything that extraordinary.
> 
> So there might be something else to their legendary status, maybe it's just charisma and projection.


I attended on concerto by Karajan (Bruckner 8, WPO, Carnegie Hall) and one concert by Bernstein (Mahler 3, NY Philharmonic, Avery Fisher Hall), both in the 1980's. The Karajan was a transcendent experience, better by far than anything I've ever heard on a recording. The Bernstein was a bit underwhelming. They released the Bernstein on CD and it sounded better than live, I thought.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I think pretty obviously the one thing that makes a conductor "legendary" is that s/he had time to create a legend through performances, articles and books written about them, recording sales and related. This typically takes decades and for most "legends" only occurs after their deaths. I remember when Karajan and Bernstein died in 1989 and 1990; they were not thought of then the way they are now, 30 years later.

Since this probably arises from recent polls about Toscanini, Karajan and Furtwangler it should probably be noted they were three of the half-dozen best selling artists in history with Toscanini first, Karajan second, Ormany third and with Bernstein and Furtwangler following.

However one of the best-selling classical conductors of all time is Neville Marriner. He outsold almost everyone, had a repertory larger than any of the conductors that outsold him, was generally good in all music, and was selected to record the soundtrack of the greatest film ever made about a classical composer -- Amadeus. But I don't think most people think of him as legendary.

Antal Dorati is one of only a handful of conductors to ever has two 2 million selling albums -- the Haydn symphonies for Decca/London and his recording of 1812 Overture and Wellington's Victory for Mercury that might be the highest selling recording in classical music history. He recorded just about everything important too. Yet how many people think of him as legendary?

I know from being old and having lived a half-century with classical music that ideas one has about someone tend to turn to cement as time goes on. If a person is favorably disposed toward someone in youth and middle age, then may think of that person as a legend once they get older and disallow anyone alive from comparison with them. This is how Toscanini was thought of when I first started following music in the 1960s. People treated him like a god.

Now people do that about a whole range of other performers mostly dead.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I think the word 'legendary' applies to conductors who had developed an aura around them in addition to their conducting. Obviously their musicianship was incredible but also a distinctiveness which demanded a following - as in their very different ways Toscanini, Firtwangler, Karajan and Bernstein. Carlos Kleiber also remains a legend because he was a great conductor who didn't conduct much and so has rarity value.
Dorati's 1812 is legendary because of the sound effects but not the conductor, fine though he was.


----------



## Guest (Jul 13, 2020)

Legendary? The mix of fact and fiction that comprise the stories told about them.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Legendary? The mix of fact and fiction that comprise the stories told about them.


Quite right! :lol:


----------



## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

It must have been twenty or thirty years ago that I read Charles Munch's rather slim volume on the art of conducting. I checked it from the library, and don't remember much except that he said not to eat too much the day of your concert because you don't want the processes of digestion (gas and indigestion) to interfere with your task at hand.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I can remember reading Sir Adrian Boult’s book on conducting where he said he always wondered how many musicians he would knock over on his way to the podium! He also said that the minimum requirement for a conductor was to play five or six orchestral instruments. He quoted the example of Hans Richter. Karajan said that it it is not necessary to learn them all because you will never be as good as your best players anyway. What is important is that you learn what each instrument can do.
I remember Klemperer in his book saying to young conductors not to imitate Toscanini and try and conduct without the score. He said that the score is a good friend that so use it


----------



## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

I can really only understand “legendary” on a local level, where a conductor built or shaped an orchestra and left distinct musical and personal impressions on the musicians and public. Fritz Reiner is just one of scores of 20th Century conductors, but in Chicago he’s a legend. People still talk about him and the CSO remains conscious of his influence. Eugene Ormandy is a legend in Philadelphia. Michael Gielen is a legend in southwestern Germany. I don’t know that a conductor can become a legend just through recordings, though Ormandy is apparently something of a legend in Japan.


----------



## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Simplicissimus said:


> I can really only understand "legendary" on a local level, where a conductor built or shaped an orchestra and left distinct musical and personal impressions on the musicians and public.


Legendary on a local level in a field of classical music, which is a subfield of music, which is a subfield of art, which is a subfield of human activity. I think that the word "legendary" is a bit too pompous.


----------



## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Eugene Ormandy physically does not/did not conjure up the image of Legendary Conductor on the podium. Yet over a long, relatively quiet career with The Philadelphia, Ormandy conducted and recorded a remarkable array of very fine performances that carefully threaded a path between too much and not enough--I found his interpretations, after hearing others, so often Just Right. Perhaps an unrecognized legend, if there is such a thing. If only Columbia's sound had been as good as, say, RCA Victor.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

larold said:


> Since this probably arises from recent polls about Toscanini, Karajan and Furtwangler it should probably be noted they were three of the half-dozen best selling artists in history with Toscanini first, Karajan second, Ormany third and with Bernstein and Furtwangler following.


Having sold LP's back in the 70's and 80's, I think that you're overestimating the popularity of Furtwangler recordings (at least in the USA), which is a relatively recent phenomenon. Fifty years ago, there was a reason why Furtwangler's commercial recordings were almost invariably on the budget Seraphim label, not on full-priced Angel (except for the Tristan recording) - they weren't big sellers. The big sellers were Karajan and Bernstein. Furtwangler is now popular, to a degree, because of the vast numbers of live recordings that have been made available over the past several decades.

Of course, I don't need to point out the obvious fact that popularity has nothing whatsoever to do with quality.

What makes a conductor "legendary"? A good PR machine, a longstanding relationship with a top-flight orchestra, and a contract with a label willing to record a shitload of music.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

In answer to the thread question, being dead probably helps

Sorry larold, I see you addressed that very requirement in your post #8.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Eugene Ormandy physically does not/did not conjure up the image of Legendary Conductor on the podium. Yet over a long, relatively quiet career with The Philadelphia, Ormandy conducted and recorded a remarkable array of very fine performances that carefully threaded a path between too much and not enough--I found his interpretations, after hearing others, so often Just Right. Perhaps an unrecognized legend, if there is such a thing. If only Columbia's sound had been as good as, say, RCA Victor._

I don't know where this legend of Ormandy being a mediocrity comes from; it was there when I started collecting. I just read it repeated recently by a critic in an American magazine -- a guy that loves Bernstein. There seemed to be a competition among their fans when both were alive.

The mediocre chatter was so pervasive when I started with music I avoided his recordings. He had friends at American Record Guide and, after subscribing there a while, I started to listen. And like this person I found he was worth his position in worldwide record sales. I understood why people bought all those records.

Ormandy was good in just about all music and transcendent in Sibelius (a friend of the composer) and Shostakovich (premiered several of his symphonies in USA.) He recorded a magnificent Verdi Requiem you can buy in super audio sound and his Tchaikovsky was also outstanding.

He also had one of the world's very greatest instruments at his disposal that he built and exploited after Stokowski. I thought Philadelphia in his heyday sounded better than Karajan's Berliners.

His older recordings from the 1930s through about 1960 show him in a form no one knows that's only heard his 1970s and later stereo recordings when he tended to slow down and go slack, at least compared to his younger self.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> Having sold LP's back in the 70's and 80's, I think that you're overestimating the popularity of Furtwangler recordings (at least in the USA), which is a relatively recent phenomenon. Fifty years ago, there was a reason why Furtwangler's commercial recordings were almost invariably on the budget Seraphim label, not on full-priced Angel (except for the Tristan recording) - they weren't big sellers. The big sellers were Karajan and Bernstein. Furtwangler is now popular, to a degree, because of the vast numbers of live recordings that have been made available over the past several decades.
> 
> Of course, I don't need to point out the obvious fact that popularity has nothing whatsoever to do with quality.
> 
> *What makes a conductor "legendary"? A good PR machine, a longstanding relationship with a top-flight orchestra, and a contract with a label willing to record a shitload of music.*


Neville Marriner had those but he doesn't really have the status of 'legendary'


----------



## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

^ The Oistrakh-Ormandy recording of the Sibelius violin concerto may be the best I've ever heard.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Agree that no longer being alive is a big factor. I saw Abbado conduct about 20 years ago, he was a very famous conductor then but I think he is now moving towards "legendary" status. He should be all the way there in another 20-30 years.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_In answer to the thread question, being dead probably helps. Sorry larold, I see you addressed that very requirement in your post #8._

Maybe next time it can address what makes a living legend!


----------



## Guest (Jul 13, 2020)

larold said:


> Antal Dorati is one of only a handful of conductors to ever has two 2 million selling albums -- the Haydn symphonies for Decca/London and his recording of 1812 Overture and Wellington's Victory for Mercury that might be the highest selling recording in classical music history. He recorded just about everything important too. Yet how many people think of him as legendary?


I do! 

I think that main thing that makes a conductor "legendary" is that they worked in a time that recording technology was so primitive that your imagination is required to fill in the performance. Your imagination is better than any actual performance. Only half kidding.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't see Abbado becoming a legend with 20 more years of being dead under his belt. Not in America where very little intelligent or artistic content ever sees the light of day in the media. Those days are long gone. I imagine it's different in Europe. Penderecki is surely a legend in Poland. About 7-8 years ago I talked with a Polish truck driver who knew exactly who Penderecki was.


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Norman Lebrecht wrote a whole book on this...which should have had an appendectomy prior to publication. 

George Cleve is legendary in California for his work with 3rd rate orchestras and conducting Mostly Mozart concerts for decades... often at summer winery events... I went to several of them... anybody hear of George Cleve?


----------



## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

starthrower said:


> I don't see Abbado becoming a legend with 20 more years of being dead under his belt. Not in America where very little intelligent or artistic content ever sees the light of day in the media. Those days are long gone. I imagine it's different in Europe. Penderecki is surely a legend in Poland. About 7-8 years ago I talked with a Polish truck driver who knew exactly who Penderecki was.


I think Abbado is already at least, I dunno, semi-legendary, more so than most of his era. He's considered by many to be one of the finest interpreters of Mahler, anyway.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

No, but I've heard of Anne Of Cleves. Only cuz I listened to the Rick Wakeman album.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

philoctetes said:


> George Cleve is legendary in California


George Szell is certainly legendary in Cleveland!! :devil:


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

philoctetes said:


> Norman Lebrecht wrote a whole book on this...which should have had an appendectomy prior to publication.
> 
> George Cleve is legendary in California for his work with 3rd rate orchestras and conducting Mostly Mozart concerts for decades... often at summer winery events... I went to several of them... anybody hear of George Cleve?


Lebrecht is an entertaining writer but ruins his case so often by wild inaccuracies and over-statements. You just can't take him seriously as a serious writer


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

One thing to remember about these legends is that they were all really dedicated to their orchestra and spent a lot of time with them. Not so much today's conductors who often hold 2, 3 or more positions concurrently, travel constantly, conduct maybe eight weeks of a 40 week season. Koussevitsky spent a long time in Boston, Ormany in Philadelphia, Szell in Cleveland. Reiner wasn't in Chicago all that long, but he sure made an impact. Bernstein was associated with the NYPO for nearly 30 years one way or another. Karajan spent decades in Berlin. Then there are the long-term conductors of lesser orchestras who are only Legends in their Own Minds.


----------



## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Barbebleu said:


> In answer to the thread question, being dead probably helps
> 
> Sorry larold, I see you addressed that very requirement in your post #8.


During the 1980s, the Boomers and Gen Xers regarded Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin as square, music for old people. Now that Sinatra and Martin have been dead for some time they've become more popular than ever, the essence of "cool".

The day before Michael Jackson died he was "Jacko Wacko". The day after he died he was lauded, once again, as the "King of Pop".

And I've never been to a funeral where the eulogy didn't describe and celebrate the person as anything but saintly no matter how flawed they were, which is why I don't want any of that BS when I go. Sometimes when clergy delivers the eulogy they hardly even know the deceased if they were a nonactive member of the church, so they just ask the family a few things and use their clerical skills to make it sound as if they knew the person well.

Another things is that you can't compete with the dead. There's an episode of the old _Twilight Zone_ where a Jack Klugman is a young pool player who lives for the game. He bypasses friendships, having a girlfriend, and all other social activities just to play pool. He even sleeps in the pool hall sometimes. As good as he is the other pool players say he'd never be able to beat the almighty "Fats" who, of course, had died long before and who's picture hangs on the wall. Klugman meets Fats (played by Jonathan Winters) in a dream (or whatever?) and in this dream or in the "Twilight Zone" he finally beats Fats but then he becomes legend who everyone wants to tear down and they won't allow his spirit to rest.


----------



## Guest (Jul 13, 2020)

consuono said:


> I think Abbado is already at least, I dunno, semi-legendary, more so than most of his era. He's considered by many to be one of the finest interpreters of Mahler, anyway.


Abbado? Legendary? I find him amazingly underwhelming, given the orchestras he has bad the privilege of conducting.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

There is a mystique about a legendary conductor. He has it first with the musicians who can tell whether or not he is a phony. Toscanini had it whatever they thought of him as a person. So did Karajan and Bernstein. Furtwangler and Kleiber too no doubt. They also developed their own myth with the audience in their very different ways, consciously or unconsciously.


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine (Jul 4, 2020)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Abbado? Legendary? I find him amazingly underwhelming, given the orchestras he has bad the privilege of conducting.


I concur. I can never quite understand the excitement about Abbado. His Italian operas are good but generally undersung when compared to the Golden/Silver age of opera singing. His Blueray Mahler cycle is the best thing I've heard from him (maybe the sense of occasion is what them special).


----------



## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

First of all, there is no conductor so revered, so "universally" lauded, that there won't be someone on the Internet proud themselves for their dislike and bashing that conductor. This goes for anything, actually.

Second of all, all conductors get _way_ too much credit.

Third of all, all hero worship is based on perception rooted primarily in myth, and much less in anything particularly real.

Music should never be about hero worship.


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine (Jul 4, 2020)

Knorf said:


> Second of all, all conductors get _way_ too much credit. .


I am sympathetic to the sentiment but how can they not though. They are much more indispensable than the musicians in the orchestra for a reason. And ultimately, it's the conductor who interprets the work, not the musicians.



Knorf said:


> Music should never be about hero worship.


But aren't we all worshipers of the great composers? Without the myth, I fear that even fewer people will be into CM. Myth is a part of the musical experience (which still is a form of ritual).


----------

