# There’s something about Vivaldi!



## Kieran

Was listening to the radio yesterday and some wild, expressive, sensuous music blared out. What Romantic nutjob is it now, I queried, but this time pleased. Sonorous and vivid, lively as hell. It was The Red Priest. A violin concerto, I believe.

There’s something about Vivaldi, that every time I hear his music, it just doesn’t sound so old, so baroque, so formal. It’s as if he jumped out of the box and created music that’s so expressive, so natural, it can’t be dated.

By me, it can’t. What about you? How highly do you rate him? We don’t talk much about Vivaldi here!


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## bharbeke

With the right instrumentation, Vivaldi can be amazing, and his music is usually on the enjoyable end of the spectrum. I have not explored his music much beyond his mega-hits, but I am always open to hearing more.


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## ZJovicic

I agree that he is very underrated. Maybe people are overwhelmed by the sheer number of his works, and due to popular opinion that he has composed "the same concerto 400 times" are unwilling to delve deeper into exploration of his works. Someone who has composed something like Four Seasons must be a great composer. Four Seasons are a bit victim of their own popularity, but they are still great work. It's not easy to find such a set of four different concertos which perfectly make sense together as a whole. And each of them on their own is still a good work, with many interesting parts, and as a program music they also work very good in conveying the atmosphere of the seasons.


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## Nereffid

Perhaps we don't talk much about him because he's seen as "merely" entertaining. Far more words are spilled in talking about _sublime_ composers like Bach and Mozart, the ones who apparently bring us closer to the divine. Whereas Flash Toni seems to be much more interested in us having a good time here on Earth - not just in those exuberant fast movements, but also so many of his slow movements which have such a vibrant tension to them. I'm just picking bits at random to listen to while writing this, and every one's a pleasure.

Vivaldi's the guy you ask to play for you after Bach's gone home.


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## larold

Vivaldi came in No. 24 on my composers' survey ahead of the likes of Vaughan Williams, Elgar, Mahler (one of today's most popular symphony composers), Rossini (once the world's most popular composer), Saint Saens, Mussorgsky, Bartok, the Strauss family and Anton Bruckner. I think that a fair rating for him -- not up to the greatest but ahead of most composers.

I agree his music never is dated. That's not its greatest quality, however. The greatest quality is that he wrote so much of it for amateur girl musicians he trained while working much of his life in a place for lost girls. They played his music; he didn't write it for virtuosos as Beethoven and Brahms did their violin concertos. So there is an amazing simplicity that transcends performers and performance styles.

I can make a long list of recommended pieces and performances for anyone interested.


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## Jacck

I am always surprised how modern the Four Seasons sounds. It sounds much more modern than any Bach, Mozart or Beethoven. It almost sounds like something composed in the 20th century.


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## bharbeke

larold, I would love to see your long list. You could put it here or in Vivaldi's guestbook thread.


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## Ingélou

I love Vivaldi - his music sounds as if he succumbed to nominative determinism at a young age and decided to go in for writing *vive vivacious music*. Truly, whenever I listen to his music, I feel amazed and inspirited by its abundant life.

I think why some people don't rate him as highly as he deserves is because of those jokes they tell about 'sewing-machine music' and about Vivaldi writing the same tune 600 times. 
It's as if the flood of music overwhelms them and all they hear is an impression, not listening to the delightful nuances.

Still - their loss!


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## Bulldog

Kieran said:


> What about you? How highly do you rate him?


Of all the baroque composers having large reputations, Vivaldi is the one I listen to the least. I suppose I'd place him in my top 100 but toward the bottom.


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## Boston Charlie

What's appealing about Vivaldi and other Baroque composers, save Bach and maybe Handel, is that it doesn't take much to follow it along. You can pick it up anywhere in the piece and still enjoy it. I notice that classical music stations tend to lean heavily on Vivaldi for the early morning drives when people aren't quite ready to take on something more challenging.

I took my wife to a concert that featured a Baroque music ensemble from Italy and they programmed some concertos by Vivaldi, Corelli, Tartini and maybe someone else I never heard of before in the first half of the show and then saved the "Four Seasons" for after intermission. 

My Latin-American wife is about as much a fan of classical music as I'm a fan of Latin Pop and Mariachi music; although after decades of being wed to each other we've come to the point where our musical tastes have grown on one another, to a point. In this regard, while I would never take my wife to hear a gargantuan symphony by Bruckner, Mahler or Shostakovich; Vivaldi, I think, is kind of a safe bet for a just about anyone to like and appreciate.

Much to the amusement of the people sitting nearby, I told my wife at the outset that if she didn't like the concert very much, we could leave during intermission, I have multiple recordings of the "Four Seasons" in my music collection and a good deal of Italian Baroque concertos do sound basically the same, anyway (who was it that said Vivaldi composed the same concerto 500 times?).

In any case, my wife elected that we stay the entire show, and said that she enjoyed it. 

My favorite by V is a triple concerto played by virtuoso heavyweights Isaac Stern, Itzhak Perlman and Pinchas Zukerman w/Zubin Mehta conducting the NYPO; they really set the house on fire in the final movement.


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## Heck148

As a bassoonist, i have a special appreciation for Vivaldi...he wrote 38 excellent concertos for bassoon...no, he did not write the same one 38x!! lol!! Each one is unique....each has a special "flavor"...they are a wonderful collection of works.


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## Weird Heather

When I saw this thread, it got me in the mood to listen to Vivaldi. Although I enjoy his instrumental music and will listen to it on occasion, I think he is at his best in the vocal forms - opera arias and sacred music, and it is usually these that I choose when I feel like listening to his music. I just listened to his Gloria, RV 589. It has the same vitality as the best of his concertos, only with a full vocal ensemble in addition to the instruments. Those who are only familiar with his instrumental music should give his vocal music a try - you may be in for a pleasant surprise. The sacred music isn't as dense or solemn as much of Bach's - Vivaldi never loses his sense of fun, even in this genre. The operas are loaded with coloratura acrobatics. Late Italian Baroque operas can be difficult to listen to or see from beginning to end because they tend not to be dramatically effective, but many of the arias are wonderful. Vivaldi's are some of the best.

For those who aren't already familiar with Vivaldi's opera arias, there are quite a few on YouTube. Here is an example: Cecilia Bartoli singing "Agitata da due venti" from Griselda. There are a few videos of other singers performing this aria on YouTube; it is interesting to compare them. There can be a lot of improvisation in opera arias from this time, so every performer's version is unique.


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## Pugg

> There's something about Vivaldi


Yes there is, he's greatness is only denied by the so called "intellectuals" nothing wrong with his music, he's in my top 10 for sure


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## Guest

Meh; easy listening, like Mozart. I like a challenge. So you like repetition and huge numbers of sequences; here are some for you!!


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## Nereffid

The "Cum dederit" section of Vivaldi's _Nisi Dominus_ (RV 608) in one of my favourite things:


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## KenOC

Nereffid said:


> The "Cum dederit" section of Vivaldi's _Nisi Dominus_ (RV 608) in one of my favourite things:


Thanks! A truly original and striking work, in that or in any age.


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## Kieran

Nereffid said:


> The "Cum dederit" section of Vivaldi's _Nisi Dominus_ (RV 608) in one of my favourite things:


God that's the most beautiful thing I'll hear all day! Thanks for that, just woke up to it...


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## Kieran

Jacck said:


> I am always surprised how modern the Four Seasons sounds. It sounds much more modern than any Bach, Mozart or Beethoven. It almost sounds like something composed in the 20th century.


That's what always strikes me first about Vivaldi - his music sounds so modern. And there's no groaning effort to impress, or be difficult and cutesy and virtuoso - it's just blazingly great music, with a tremendous flair for melody and incomparable expressiveness!


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## Guest

The aversion to Vivaldi is perhaps aggravated by the ubiquity of his music on answer machines (along with Fur Elise and Eine Kleine).

I'm trying to improve my appreciation of both Bach and Vivaldi, trying to find modern versions instead of the HIP of Four Seasons and Brandenburg concertos I already have (can't stand what sounds like ropey horns on Pinnock/English Concert for example).
So, anyone like to recommend a good Quattro?

Thanks


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## Jacck

MacLeod said:


> I'm trying to improve my appreciation of both Bach and Vivaldi, trying to find modern versions instead of the HIP of Four Seasons and Brandenburg concertos I already have (can't stand what sounds like ropey horns on Pinnock/English Concert for example).So, anyone like to recommend a good Quattro?Thanks


try Max Richters version of the Four Seasons


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## Kieran

Christabel said:


> Meh; easy listening, like Mozart. I like a challenge. So you like repetition and huge numbers of sequences; here are some for you!!


That's beautiful, thanks! They perform that often during mass, in a church in town. It's music fit for purpose, uplifting and edifying...


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## larold

_larold, I would love to see your long list. You could put it here or in Vivaldi's guestbook thread._

I couldn't locate that thread. Here are some to start with:

The Four Seasons played by Galway on flute.

The Four Seasons transcribed for organ and played by Yevgeniya Lisitsina.

Vivaldi-Dart Concerto for 4 Harpsichords in D minor played by Thurston Dart.

Stabat Mater sung by Andrea Scholl.

Concertos for Diverse Instruments by I Solisti di Zagreb and Antonio Vivaldi.

Vivaldi Sacred Choral Music Vols.1-5 led by Vittorio Negri.

6 Concerti for Flauto Traverso / Masahira Artia & Bach-Mozart Ensemble Tokyo.

Vivaldi Blaserkozerte (Concertos for Wind Instruments) lead by Hans Stadlmair.

Vivaldi Concerti con titoli (concertos with titles) by I Musici.

Anything by Virtuosi di Roma, especially:
-- Concerto Grosso in A minor for Two Violins RV 552 Op. 3 No. 8
-- Concerto in G for Two Cellos RV 531
-- Concerto in B flat major for Violin & Cello RV 547
-- Concerto in A major for Violin & Cello RV 546
-- Concerto for Violin "La Caccia" RV 362 Op. 8 No. 10
-- Concerto in F for Cello & Two Horns P. 320
-- Concerto in F for Two Horns P. 321

Concerto Grosso in D P. 444 led by Marriner.


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## Guest

Jacck said:


> try Max Richters version of the Four Seasons


Hmmm...I didn't have quite that modern in mind!


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## WildThing

MacLeod said:


> The aversion to Vivaldi is perhaps aggravated by the ubiquity of his music on answer machines (along with Fur Elise and Eine Kleine).
> 
> I'm trying to improve my appreciation of both Bach and Vivaldi, trying to find modern versions instead of the HIP of Four Seasons and Brandenburg concertos I already have (can't stand what sounds like ropey horns on Pinnock/English Concert for example).
> So, anyone like to recommend a good Quattro?
> 
> Thanks


Perhaps Joshua Bell with Academy of St. Martin in the Fields is what you're looking for. A lovely recording on modern instruments.


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## Jacck

from what little I explored of Vivaldi, I liked most his violin concerti and double concerti
Vivaldi Violin Concerto in B minor, op 3, No 10 RV 580


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## Nereffid

MacLeod said:


> The aversion to Vivaldi is perhaps aggravated by the ubiquity of his music on answer machines (along with Fur Elise and Eine Kleine).
> 
> I'm trying to improve my appreciation of both Bach and Vivaldi, trying to find modern versions instead of the HIP of Four Seasons and Brandenburg concertos I already have (can't stand what sounds like ropey horns on Pinnock/English Concert for example).
> So, anyone like to recommend a good Quattro?
> 
> Thanks


I got Daniel Hope's recording recently and enjoyed it. As it happens he's championed Max Richter's work too.


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## Kieran

Bopping around YouTube with Vivaldi is like bumping into somebody I dreaded having to meet and finding they’re the exact opposite to what I was expecting. In fact, now I dread the idea of them going away. Moving from concertos to church music to stuff that blares and explodes in all directions. None of the formality or staidness I (wrongly, I know) tend to associate with baroque music. Vivaldi sounds menacing and earthy, even in some church music, but never inappropriate, never pretentious or laboured, and so exactly right in almost everything I’ve listened to. Am I wrong to consider him to be maybe the most misunderstood, underestimated famous composer of them all?


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## Anankasmo

For I am a massive sucker for concertos Vivaldi imo is a great composer. But his real strength which is often overlooked is his vocal music. Here is a new favourite i recently found. 




This is great as well:





Somehow it seems his orchestration (if one can call it like that) is so transparent and incredibly novel-sounding and imaginitive for its time.


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## Guest

To each his own, of course, but in my opinion this composer was far more imaginative. The orchestrations are problematic because of the lack of complete extant scores, but I think you'll agree this is pretty translucent and voluptuous: and at this time a combination of tonality and modality was still being used as the move to diatonic triadic sonority was not yet complete:


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## StDior

> But his real strength which is often overlooked is his vocal music.


I absolutely agree with it. Vivaldi was around Top 30-40 among my favorite composers earlier when I listened to only his orchestral pieces. Now I know some of his operas and sacred music and definitely consider him as top 10 composer. I like his optimistic, shining and uplifting vocal pieces.
E.g.:
Bajazed (1735) "Quel ciglio vezzosetto": 





RV.644 Juditha Triumphans - Umbrae carae, aurore andrae: 





RV.594 Dixit dominus - Sicut erat in principio: 





More examples are in this thread here: Vivaldi queries


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## Mal

At the moment Listening to Vivaldi, The English Concert, Andrew Manze ‎– Concertos For The Emperor Harmonia Mundi ‎– HMU 907332. Excellent Penguin rosette winner. Superb lead violin playing from Manze, a beefier than usual HIP orchestra. Excellent booklet as well, Manze makes the point that these concertos are a bit more involved than usual 'cause the Emperor was a musical expert (he actually composed!) and Vivaldi wanted to impress him to get a good job. So no "mass produced" concertos here. Didn't get the job though,...


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## Kieran

There's a beautiful work by Vivaldi and I can't for the life of me find it. It's for voices, but it has an elegant, strident violins segue between the verses, in its effect not unlike the music Handel composed for the Champions League football. Similar in effect.

I know, a wholly inadequate description.

Vivaldi is deep! The man had profound faith, a deep spirit, a beautiful understanding of liturgical music as "prayer by proxy". Been listening to him every spare minute...

EDIT: just found it! Okay, forget "voices", it's for a voice. Not a bit like Handel, really, either :lol:


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## Pugg

Antonio Vivaldi "Nisi Dominus " Teresa Berganza
A wonderful piece sung by one of the best Mezzo's from last decades.


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## JosefinaHW

Nereffid said:


> Perhaps we don't talk much about him because he's seen as "merely" entertaining. Far more words are spilled in talking about _sublime_ composers like Bach and Mozart, the ones who apparently bring us closer to the divine. Whereas Flash Toni seems to be much more interested in us having a good time here on Earth - not just in those exuberant fast movements, but also so many of his slow movements which have such a vibrant tension to them. I'm just picking bits at random to listen to while writing this, and every one's a pleasure.
> 
> Vivaldi's the guy you ask to play for you after Bach's gone home.


Any opportunity to trash Bach's sacred music!!!... ESPECIALLY including the people who clicked LIKE!


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## Guest

JosefinaHW said:


> Any opportunity to trash Bach's sacred music!!!... ESPECIALLY including the people who clicked LIKE!


Nobody's trashing anything. Try rereading the post, if you would.


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## JosefinaHW

MacLeod, you have not been party to the long history of the trashing of J.S. Bach on this forum. Of course people can change their minds and the way they speak, but crude profanities have been used to describe his relationship with his wives, he's been called a second tier composer because he didn't invent sonata allegro form (!!!), and then there comes the cantatas, in particular.

Take into consideration this vein that runs through the forum when you re-read Nerefid's post you will see the sarcastic reference to the "sublime" composers; then "the ones who apparently bring us closer to the divine"; then Vivaldi who alternatively want us to have a good time--meaning that Bach's sacred music is boring and anti-flesh and fun...

You want examples, MacLeod, send me a PM and I'll show you. (By the way, if you are interested in hearing Bach at his most chromatic, passionate self, I'll give you a ticket to watch the Berlin Philharmonic's ritualization of the St. John Passion. If your time is limited watch only the second half.)


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## Nereffid

Nereffid said:


> Perhaps we don't talk much about him because he's seen as "merely" entertaining. Far more words are spilled in talking about _sublime_ composers like Bach and Mozart, the ones who apparently bring us closer to the divine. Whereas Flash Toni seems to be much more interested in us having a good time here on Earth - not just in those exuberant fast movements, but also so many of his slow movements which have such a vibrant tension to them. I'm just picking bits at random to listen to while writing this, and every one's a pleasure.
> 
> Vivaldi's the guy you ask to play for you after Bach's gone home.





JosefinaHW said:


> Any opportunity to trash Bach's sacred music!!!... ESPECIALLY including the people who clicked LIKE!





JosefinaHW said:


> MacLeod, you have not been party to the long history of the trashing of J.S. Bach on this forum. Of course people can change their minds and the way they speak, but crude profanities have been used to describe his relationship with his wives, he's been called a second tier composer because he didn't invent sonata allegro form (!!!), and then there comes the cantatas, in particular.
> 
> Take into consideration this vein that runs through the forum when you re-read Nerefid's post you will see the sarcastic reference to the "sublime" composers; then "the ones who apparently bring us closer to the divine"; then Vivaldi who alternatively want us to have a good time--meaning that Bach's sacred music is boring and anti-flesh and fun...


In regard to my post, you're seeing things that simply aren't there. For the record, both Bach and Vivaldi are among the composers whose music I most like to listen to, and if I were forced to only choose one of them to listen to ever again, I'd fairly easily choose Bach. As it happens the genre of Bach's music that gives me most enjoyment is his sacred cantatas. So I don't regard this music as "boring and anti-flesh and fun" (sic). And I have no desire to be lumped together with people who don't understand either 18th-century social norms or the fact that time only runs in one direction.

The bit that you refer to as ""sublime" composers" but in my original was "_sublime_ composers" was certainly not intended as sarcastic. I had something of a dilemma while writing this, because on the one hand I tend not to use words like "sublime" to describe any music, but on the other I wanted to acknowledge that others do, and that I don't disagree with the general sentiment behind the use of the word. All this was difficult to convey in what was intended to be a short and uncomplicated post. I didn't want to just leave the word unemphasised because that would fail to address my own attitude to the word, but I didn't want to put it in quotes because those are seen sometimes as "scare quotes". I figured italicization might be less prone to being misinterpreted as insincerity, but it appears I was wrong in this instance, as you seem to have grabbed the wrong end of the stick, firmly and with both hands.
And oddly enough, you ignored my reference to "Flash Toni", which was actually the least complimentary thing in the post.

As for "Vivaldi's the guy you ask to play for you after Bach's gone home", the intention here was that _Bach is the main event_, the person people have come to hear. But when he finally has ended his performance and leaves, there may still be those who, having encountered the sublime (there, no quotes or anything), want to keep the evening going, and that's when they turn to Vivaldi, who may not offer sublimity but knows how to ("_merely_") entertain. Really, the statement was as innocuous as saying "dessert's the thing you order after you've eaten the main course".


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## Tero

My entire interest in the baroque was launched out of one Vivaldi bassoon concerto. RV 483. I had heard the Brandenburg concertos before that but with this it became a lifetime obsession.


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## Myriadi

What turned me to Vivaldi was hearing Azzolini play the bassoon concerto RV 499 - such powerful opening, and I could scarcely believe it's from the Baroque period. I eventually bought the entire set of bassoon concerti on Naive. Since then I've come to believe that the Seasons have sadly overshadowed many of Vivaldi's wonderful works, in the same way Pachelbel's Canon has obliterated any possibility of any of his other works becoming well-known.


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## Ras

When I listen to Vivaldi's Violin Concertos I feel like having a hyper-active child in day-care...
The Vivaldi cds I still spin from time to time are Sol Gabetta's cello recordings from RCA and Yo-Yo Ma's ditto on Sony.


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## Ras

Sorry, I didn't finish my post:

I have fond memories of Vivaldi's flute music both his concertos on DHM played by Kaiser, Scheider and Camerata Koln and the chamber music with flute on the small label ACCORD with Jean-Christophe Frisch and Musique des Lumieres (never heard about them other than this one cd). 

Vocal music by Vivaldi: I like one of the Glorias but I can't remember the RV number. 
I also like Stabat Mater - I have a recording from Naive with Alessandrini. (Coupled with Pergolesi's Stabat Mater).

When I listen to Vivaldi's manic violin concertos I go "all in" with Fabio Biondi (on Naive or Opus 111) and Viktoria Mullova (on Onyx).


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## Enthusiast

Nereffid said:


> As for "Vivaldi's the guy you ask to play for you after Bach's gone home", the intention here was that _Bach is the main event_, the person people have come to hear. But when he finally has ended his performance and leaves, there may still be those who, having encountered the sublime (there, no quotes or anything), want to keep the evening going, and that's when they turn to Vivaldi, who may not offer sublimity but knows how to ("_merely_") entertain. Really, the statement was as innocuous as saying "dessert's the thing you order after you've eaten the main course".


I thought it was a really excellent phrase, putting it far better than I could. Of course, I can see that a long history on this forum of abusing Bach might make people ultra sensitive. I'm certainly glad I missed that history as it would have driven me to distraction. too.


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## Bulldog

JosefinaHW said:


> MacLeod, you have not been party to the long history of the trashing of J.S. Bach on this forum. Of course people can change their minds and the way they speak, but crude profanities have been used to describe his relationship with his wives, he's been called a second tier composer because he didn't invent sonata allegro form (!!!), and then there comes the cantatas, in particular.


I think you're way off base on this one. I have also been here for many years and find the trashing of Bach very infrequent; Vivaldi is trashed much more.

I say the above as a person who puts Bach well ahead of any other composer and has zero interest in listening to any of Vivaldi's music. You're taking very little and making a mountain out of it, a tendency that shows up in your postings on a regular basis.


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## fliege

The Bassoon concertos played by Sergio Azzolini (Naive) are loads of fun and have a modern feel to them. See RV 493 and 484. The concertos for two cellos (Lloyd Webber) are awesome. Especially RV 532. Good concertos for two violins too: see RV 523 on Naive, but this a good version too:


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## fliege

MacLeod said:


> e (can't stand what sounds like ropey horns on Pinnock/English Concert for example).
> So, anyone like to recommend a good Quattro?
> 
> Thanks


How about this one? https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8032058--vivaldi-the-four-seasons


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## RevAvery

The first time I heard Vivaldi I thought: energy, life, force. I really like Vivaldi. He and Mozart are my two favorites. They always bring a refreshingly clean experience to my listening pleasure. 

Why is it that a connection is made for certain composers and not as much for others? That has always fascinated me. Others are great to other people, but not as much for someone else. 

I guess it proves we're all a little bit different while still connected in the main.


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## Kieran

RevAvery said:


> The first time I heard Vivaldi I thought: energy, life, force. I really like Vivaldi. He and Mozart are my two favorites. They always bring a refreshingly clean experience to my listening pleasure.
> 
> Why is it that a connection is made for certain composers and not as much for others? That has always fascinated me. Others are great to other people, but not as much for someone else.
> 
> I guess it proves we're all a little bit different while still connected in the main.


That's it. We each have different appeities and views. But...Mozart and Vivaldi bring abundance and generosity to their creations, they charge us up with vivid, timeless music. I can completely see why you'd have them both as your favourite composers!


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## fliege

It so happens that this new Quattro recently came out from Podger and Brecon Baroque. It's very good and quite different from the Biondi, above. 
https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/c...seasons-from-rachel-podger-and-brecon-baroque


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## BobBrines

*And Sony digs deep into the archives....*

This is my first post to the forum -- of my obligatory 10 so I can get into my account and create an avatar.

Sony released a remaster of "Leonard Bernstein Conducts Vivaldi". The original, I believe, was released on Columbia in 1958! RV558 with Bernstein at the harpsicord, RV454 happily on oboe, RV441 on modern flute and RV443 on piccolo. Bernstein is not my favorite interpreter of Vivaldi, but the interest in this recording is a look back in the beginnings of how Baroque should be presented.

My personal interest in this recording is that it was MY very first LP of any Baroque music. I now have 389 RV listings in my library. Of course I have long lost that LP, so I'm going to pay the $20 to download it just because.

Bob


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## Mozart555

I agree that Vivaldi sounds far more modern than Bach. There is a semi-romantic quality to his music that is not present in most Baroque composers.

Listen to the second movement of this for example (it is by Vivaldi despite the BWV title):





Vivaldi is of the lighter baroque school, for example here is something similar (this time not by Vivaldi, but by Prince Johann Ernst, again despite the BWV title):


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## SenaJurinac

*Vivaldi's The Four Seasons like you never heard - or saw - before*

There is not much information about this short movie in English (directed by Philippe Béziat) except a short entry at the IMDB, even though it received numerous awards at the film festivals:

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt8708282/

But for Concerto Italiano ensemble's performance of this Vivaldi's work Wikipedia says "... Le Quattro Stagioni (hailed as one of the best versions of the work by Gramophone)".

So sit and enjoy - listening, and watching.


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## Eusebius12

Vivaldi is so inventive and rich, far from writing the same concerto 500 times, each concerto has its own interesting themes. At least there are dozens and dozens of works that fit this description. He is a hugely important figure in the development of orchestral style and the rise of homophony, and his influence extends from choral music to opera, even. Bach was a great admirer and there is something of Vivaldi in Bach's Italianate moods, besides the fact that Bach transcribed numerous Vivaldi works.

The 4th name in Italian string music of the early 18th century after Vivaldi, Corelli and Tartini (or arguably in front of Tartini) is Francesco Maria Veracini. Well worth exploring, radical at times, lyrical, full of fantasy just like those abovementioned.


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## Eusebius12

Mozart555 said:


> I agree that Vivaldi sounds far more modern than Bach. There is a semi-romantic quality to his music that is not present in most Baroque composers.
> 
> Listen to the second movement of this for example (it is by Vivaldi despite the BWV title):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vivaldi is of the lighter baroque school, for example here is something similar (this time not by Vivaldi, but by Prince Johann Ernst, again despite the BWV title):


These are Bach transciptions, no?


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## Ariasexta

I am sure that JS Bach and Mozart and many other composers tried to remind hmself of the mood of Vivaldi`s music while composing. Sometimes, Mozarts serenades sound like repetition of some lost Vivaldi theme to me. Of course, more praise for him is unnecessary.


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## Hugo9000

I adore Vivaldi! L'estro armonico (the Opus 3 set of concerti) is gorgeous and dramatic, as well as vitally important historically to music. It astonishes me that so many disparage this great composer.


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## endelbendel

Like mint chocolate chip ice cream. A reliable and singular flavor. Sometimes nothing else will do, sometimes tiresome.


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## Tero

There is something about Vivaldi. I've memorized big hunks of Sibelius, also his continental contemporaries in France etc. But if you play me a Brahms piece and another Brahms piece, I can't tell which one is which.

Vivaldi I can pull out a CD that has a piece if you play it to me. I may not have the exact concerto but close to it.


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## Rogerx

And...it's his Birthday today, long ago



Antonio Vivaldi (born Venice, 4 March 1678; died Vienna, 28 July 1741)


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## Xisten267

Love the Red Priest. Has always been in my top 20 of composers, and it's my #1 or #2 italian depending on the day and if I'm in the mood or not for a Verdi opera.


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## hammeredklavier

Mozart555 said:


> I agree that Vivaldi sounds far more modern than Bach.


Bach also has "modernist" elements, just in a different way.












hammeredklavier said:


> "In the second of his 1931 essays on 'National Music', *Schoenberg acknowledged Bach and Mozart as his principal teachers* and told his readers why." <PA124>
> Schoenberg: *"My teachers were primarily Bach and Mozart*, and secondarily Beethoven, Brahms, and Wagner." <PA173>


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## Pyotr

Eusebius12 said:


> Vivaldi is so inventive and rich,....... Bach was a great admirer and there is something of Vivaldi in Bach's Italianate moods, besides the fact that Bach transcribed numerous Vivaldi works..............


Yes, Bach certainly could recognize a good tune when he heard one. He transcribed at least nine concertos of Vivaldi, three for solo organ (BWV 593-4, 596), and six for solo harpsichord (BWV 972-3, 975-6, 978, 980).

I do prefer Vivaldi's versions, although I haven't listened to all nine yet.


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## Haydn70

One of my favorite composers...and another underrated one.

Here is his Concerto con molti stromenti RV 558 in C major. A large and unusual concertino: 2 violins 'in tromba marina', 2 recorders, 2 mandolins, 2 chalumeaux (predecessor to the modern-day clarinet), 2 theorbos, cello.

The first movement is one of my very favorite pieces of music by any composer.

Bracing, joyous, ebullient music!






For an explanation of what a 'violino in tromba marina' is, here is an excellent article:

https://www.thestrad.com/recreating-vivaldis-violino-in-tromba-marina/4526.article

Viva Vivaldi!


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## Eclectic Al

If you are not interested in opera (and I'm not), who is the greatest Italian composer? Vivaldi?


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## Itullian

I love Vivaldi. i have a million recordings of his and love them all.


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## ArtMusic

Eclectic Al said:


> If you are not interested in opera (and I'm not), who is the greatest Italian composer? Vivaldi?


Good choice, I think so. Vivaldi did write a lot of operas but he is well known today for his instrumental work and growingly, his church music, too. He wrote a lot of great music, which was considered totally new during it day. When listening to his music, pretend to be a Baroque listener listening to say three movement concertos for the first time, which was the new format etc.


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## Eclectic Al

ArtMusic said:


> Good choice, I think so. Vivaldi did write a lot of operas but he is well known today for his instrumental work and growingly, his church music, too. He wrote a lot of great music, which was considered totally new during it day. When listening to his music, pretend to be a Baroque listener listening to say three movement concertos for the first time, which was the new format etc.


Just listened to his Cello Concerto in C minor (RV401). Blown away!


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Vivaldi always reminded me of Villa Lobos, not because their musical styles are anything alike on paper, but in spirit: both incredibly prolific, wrote multiple pieces for interesting and exotic combinations of instruments, and wrote really colorful vivacious music


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## Musicaterina

bharbeke said:


> With the right instrumentation, Vivaldi can be amazing, and his music is usually on the enjoyable end of the spectrum. I have not explored his music much beyond his mega-hits, but I am always open to hearing more.


Yes, with the right instrumentation, it is, in my opinion, amazing. In my opinion, right instrumentation means period instruments. These are the instruments for which the pieces were composed.


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## Chilham

.......................


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## SONNET CLV

*There's something about Vivaldi!*

Yes there is. And it's all in the first four letters of his name. Viva! Hooray! Cheers! Long Live!

Viva Vivaldi!

Music to live for! Music that's alive!


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## Bulldog

Pugg said:


> Yes there is, he's greatness is only denied by the so called "intellectuals"


That's not accurate. I don't have an intellectual bone in my body and have little regard for Vivaldi's music.


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## Pyotr

Eclectic Al said:


> If you are not interested in opera (and I'm not), who is the greatest Italian composer? Vivaldi?


I have listened to more hours of Paganini in my lifetime (so far). But I'm definitely an outlier here at TC.


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## larold

_If you are not interested in opera (and I'm not), who is the greatest Italian composer? Vivaldi?_

Vivaldi wrote 94 operas, you know. They don't quite have the staying power of his concertos -- but his sacred choral music does.


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## Alfacharger

A little taste of a Vivaldi Sinfonia from his opera Dorilla in Tempe which contains a very familiar tune.


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## basseux

Alfacharger said:


> A little taste of a Vivaldi Sinfonia from his opera Dorilla in Tempe which contains a very familiar tune.


Is it self plagiarisation ? 

I love RV113 so much


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## Machiavel

Why do we hear the argument he compose the same concertos 400-500 times but we never hear the same thing for BAch 200+ cantatas or Telemann thousands of works or Bruckner writing 1 symphony 9 times or even Beethoven 32 piano sonatas, many of them sounding similar in tone and emotions


3, 2, 1............ I hear the sounds of Beethoven Fans marching in masses defending him . How dare he, throw him to the fire, Beethoven being repetitive, non sense , can't be:devil: Burn him burn him.:lol:


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## Xisten267

Machiavel said:


> Why do we hear the argument he compose the same concertos 400-500 times but we never hear the same thing for BAch 200+ cantatas or Telemann thousands of works or Bruckner writing 1 symphony 9 times or even Beethoven 32 piano sonatas, many of them sounding similar in tone and emotions
> 
> 3, 2, 1............ I hear the sounds of Beethoven Fans marching in masses defending him . How dare he, throw him to the fire, Beethoven being repetitive, non sense , can't be:devil: Burn him burn him.:lol:


It seems that someone just summoned me! :devil:

"Ludwig van Beethoven wrote his 35 piano sonatas between 1782 and 1822. Although originally not intended to be a meaningful whole, as a set they comprise one of the most important collections of works in the history of music. Hans von Bülow called them 'The New Testament' of the piano literature (Johann Sebastian Bach's The Well-Tempered Clavier being 'The Old Testament').

Beethoven's piano sonatas came to be seen as the first cycle of major piano pieces suited to concert hall performance. Being suitable for both private and public performance, Beethoven's sonatas form 'a bridge between the worlds of the salon and the concert hall'. The first person to play them all in a single concert cycle was Hans von Bülow, the first complete recording is Artur Schnabel's for the label His Master's Voice." - *Extracted from Wikipedia*.

"Beethoven Piano Sonatas, compositions by Ludwig van Beethoven. Although he was far from the first great composer to write multi-movement compositions for solo piano, he was, nonetheless, the first to show how much power and variety of expression could be drawn forth from this single instrument. For composers who came after him, notably, but not exclusively, Brahms, his sonatas became the standard of excellence. (...) Piano sonatas of that time tended to be gracious and elegant in style, and Beethoven's own early sonatas usually conform to that expectation. However, as he developed his own style and reputation, he began to bring greater drama into his sonatas. They became longer, more dramatic in character, and more demanding of technique, generally designed for Beethoven's own formidable keyboard skills, rather than those of amateurs. Of his later piano sonatas, only numbers 24 and 25 would not be daunting for non-professional players, and some of the late sonatas, especially no. 29, the 'Hammerklavier,' and the three that follow it, are formidable from any point of view." - *Extracted from Encyclopedia Britannica.
*
Say what you want. Those who know at least a thing or two about music value the very expressive, original and diverse body of works that the Beethoven piano sonatas constitute. As a whole, they are a benchmark of their genre.


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## Xisten267

Duplicated post..............................


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## hammeredklavier

Allerius said:


> Piano sonatas of that time tended to be gracious and elegant in style, and Beethoven's own early sonatas usually conform to that expectation. However, as he developed his own style and reputation, he began to bring greater drama into his sonatas.


I find that Hummel's are idiomatically close to Beethoven's:


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## cybernaut

Vivaldi is one of my favorites. Gorgeous music bursting with life. He's in my top 15.


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## ArtMusic

cybernaut said:


> Vivaldi is one of my favorites. Gorgeous music bursting with life. He's in my top 15.


Well said. He is now better respected than ever before thanks in part to a deep appreciation and rediscovery of his operas. He claimed to have composed 94 operas, but fewer than 50 titles have been identified, of which the scores of only 20 or so survive, wholly or in part. Moreover, the practice of reviving works under a different title and of creating pasticci has confused musicologists.

Youtube have many.


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## cybernaut

Vivaldi - Concerto for two violins, two cellos, strings and continuo
arranged for two guitars.

This is sublime:


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## Xisten267

hammeredklavier said:


> I find that Hummel's are idiomatically close to Beethoven's:


Because in one and only one of his sonatas Hummel paid homage to late Beethoven by emulating his style, and then had the kindness returned by Ludwig using a theme of this same sonata in his own Op. 110? I don't think so. I listen nothing like the _Moonlight_, the _Waldstein_, the _Appassionata_ or Op. 111 for example in Hummel.

"Hummel's music took a different direction from that of Beethoven. Looking forward, Hummel stepped into modernity through pieces like his Sonata in F-sharp minor, Op. 81, and his Fantasy, Op. 18, for piano. These pieces are examples where Hummel may be seen to both challenge the classical harmonic structures and stretch the sonata form." - *From Wikipedia*.

Salieri must be very close in style to Mozart according to your reasoning:


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## hammeredklavier

^The Hummel sonata in F sharp minor was published in 1819, btw.
Both Beethoven and Hummel are ewch unique in their own ways, I mean.


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## hammeredklavier

Jacck said:


> I am always surprised how modern the Four Seasons sounds. It sounds much more modern than any Bach, Mozart or Beethoven. It almost sounds like something composed in the 20th century.


Try


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

hammeredklavier said:


> Try


What in the world? That is not what I was expecting at all


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## LAS

I love Vivaldi and am thoroughly enjoying this thread!


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## Kieran

LAS said:


> I love Vivaldi and am thoroughly enjoying this thread!


I'm glad it was revived! it's gotten me listening again to this great genius...


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## RMinNJ

Vivaldi is my number one - okay it's a tie with Bach. I absolutely love his music, so exuberant, full of life, energy, light. My absolute favorite is L'Estro Armonico (2 disc set, I love the second disc but the first is wonderful too). Next, the entire Cello Concertos -- they're heaven. La Stravaganza is also wonderful. Finally, try Concerti per molit stumenti volumes 1 & 2. Europa Galante with Fabio Biondi in particular play Vivaldi quite beautifully. Highly highly recommend.


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## ArtMusic

RMinNJ said:


> Vivaldi is my number one - okay it's a tie with Bach. I absolutely love his music, so exuberant, full of life, energy, light. My absolute favorite is L'Estro Armonico (2 disc set, I love the second disc but the first is wonderful too). Next, the entire Cello Concertos -- they're heaven. La Stravaganza is also wonderful. Finally, try Concerti per molit stumenti volumes 1 & 2. Europa Galante with Fabio Biondi in particular play Vivaldi quite beautifully. Highly highly recommend.


I agree entirely. Vivaldi was one of the most original composers for their respective times. He pioneered the three movement concerto format that impressed Bach. He also wrote great operas and sublime church music worth listening, not just the concertos/instrumental works.


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## hammeredklavier

Allerius said:


> Because in one and only one of his sonatas Hummel paid homage to late Beethoven by emulating his style, and then had the kindness returned by Ludwig using a theme of this same sonata in his own Op. 110? I don't think so. I listen nothing like the _Moonlight_, the _Waldstein_, the _Appassionata_ or Op. 111 for example in Hummel.


This is also interesting:

1:43


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## consuono

hammeredklavier said:


> This is also interesting:
> 
> 1:43


Yeah, but what year was that composed? I find the Hummel-Beethoven comparisons less interesting than the Hummel-Chopin ones. Hummel was obviously a huge influence there.

Anyway, it has nothing to do with Vivaldi. I like some of Vivaldi's works, so there we go. Back to the OP.


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