# Brahm's symphony no. 2



## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

Hi. I am new here; in fact this is my first post. I have been listening to classical music for 10 years or so, since I was 20. I am a huge fan of Bach, I love Beethoven and I really getting into Brahms. Actually I love Brahms' symphonies No. 4, 3 and 1; in fact they are now my favorite symphonies. I love how they are constructed, the complexity, the beautiful melodies, the power, and the hint of Bach and Beethoven. I love those 3 symphonies beyond words. But the problem is I am having a hard time loving symphony No. 2. I can't understand why, it just doesn't speak to me like the other 3 do. To be fair I didn't immediately love the other 3, it took quite a few listening sessions but I ended up loving them. This seems to not be happening with the one No. 2. Can someone tell me, is this common or should I give it more time? Is it possible that is simply not as brilliant as the others?


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## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

This appears to be a common view. As for me I've always rather taken to the second symphony. My favourite Brahms symphonies are the second and fourth. I love the opening of the first symphony but for me that's the best bit. I've always thought the third symphony is almost too Brahmsian. 

To me the second symphony is rather more relaxed than the other symphonies, and to my ear is full of interest.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

They recently wanted to kill me here for saying that Brahms 2nd is gibberish, we're in it together now, brother <outcasts> <truth hurts>


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

The thing is, there is something about Brahms that is just so brilliant, maybe it's the Beethoven and Bach in him. It's interesting how you can hear influences of those two but yet he has his own style. He is conservative but still a true romantic composer. I love how his symphonies can have power and emotion without being overly dramatic like some of Tchaikovsky's overly dramatic and emotional symphonies (btw I like alot of Tchaikovsky's work, just to make that clear, but that is a debate reserved for another thread). I also love Brahms' Voilin Concerto. I guess I will keep working on his second symphony.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Aramis said:


> They recently wanted to kill me here for saying that Brahms 2nd is gibberish, we're in it together now, brother <outcasts> <truth hurts>


Actually we hoped that a bit of flagellation would do the trick. There are sloppily collected indications that the 2nd is the least of the symphonies in the hearts of classical music people. I like it fine, as long as the 1st is far enough distant from me in time. _Lancsman_, your comment re the 3rd is interesting. It does have a strong dose of the Brahmsian melodies that go characteristically astray.


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

Ukko said:


> Actually we hoped that a bit of flagellation would do the trick. There are sloppily collected indications that the 2nd is the least of the symphonies in the hearts of classical music people. I like it fine, as long as the 1st is far enough distant from me in time. _Lancsman_, your comment re the 3rd is interesting. It does have a strong dose of the Brahmsian melodies that go characteristically astray.


Really, I love his third symphony. I guess I am the odd one out.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

To each their own, always, but Brahms 2 is a wonderful ray of sunshine to me. On the downside it is somewhat thickly orchestrated in places and the third movement is a bit slight. But on the upside you've got some wonderful schwinging Brahms syncopations in the first and last movements (the most fun finale of the lot), killer tunes like the 1st mvt second subject and the opening of the slow movement, the huge horn solo and the cheeky coda in the 1st movement, honking trombones at the end. What's not to like? I think I'll go and listen to it right now


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Aramis said:


> They recently wanted to kill me here for saying that Brahms 2nd is gibberish, we're in it together now, brother <outcasts> <truth hurts>


"Gibberish? That's Brahms! Brahms' Second Gibberish!"


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

DrMuller said:


> Hi. I am new here; in fact this is my first post. I have been listening to classical music for 10 years or so, since I was 20. I am a huge fan of Bach, I love Beethoven and I really getting into Brahms. Actually I love Brahms' symphonies No. 4, 3 and 1; in fact they are now my favorite symphonies. I love how they are constructed, the complexity, the beautiful melodies, the power, and the hint of Bach and Beethoven. I love those 3 symphonies beyond words. But the problem is I am having a hard time loving symphony No. 2. I can't understand why, it just doesn't speak to me like the other 3 do. To be fair I didn't immediately love the other 3, it took quite a few listening sessions but I ended up loving them. This seems to not be happening with the one No. 2. Can someone tell me, is this common or should I give it more time? Is it possible that is simply not as brilliant as the others?


Re Brahms 2, after listening to Karajan, Walter, Klemperer, Harnoncourt, Muti, and you still don't like/get it...well, there's no hope. Just kidding, and welcome. Good luck in your quest of nut-cracking.:tiphat:


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

Vaneyes said:


> Re Brahms 2, after listening to Karajan, Walter, Klemperer, Harnoncourt, Muti, and you still don't like/get it...well, there's no hope. Just kidding, and welcome. Good luck in your quest of nut-cracking.:tiphat:


Thanks.  I don't accept that there is no hope, not when Brahms is concerned and I have always liked his music. But the truth is I have listened to the other ones so many times and kind of ignored the second one because I thought it didn't click. I will not give up until I love it. I will keep you posted.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Welcome to the Forum, DrMuller.

Don't dismiss the Second too quickly. It may someday prove to be your favorite Brahms symphony. In some ways the Second is a more difficult pleasure than the other three, which prove more readily accessible at first hearing -- a lot of catchy stuff goes on in the First, Third, and Fourth Symphonies of Brahms. The Second remains more problematical, but is still a stunning work.

I recall my first hearing of Brahms. It was the First Symphony and I was blown over. The thing is a monstrous work of art with a lot of "angles" one can sink one's teeth into -- that powerful opening, that sublime slow movement, that magnificent Beethoven-like Chorale at the ending.... The Third and Fourth have a lot of distinguishing features, too, which makes them more immediately memorable. I know they were long my favorites. I had to grow into the Second which is more elusive.

Recall that experienced wine connoisseurs, though they may have begun with the sweet Burgundies, tend to prefer the dryer blends with time. Brahms's Second is just such a "dryer blend", lacking the immediately palate pleasing sweetnesses of the other three symphonies.

I'm listening to the Second as I type (Svetlanov conducting the USSR State Symphony Orchestra on a MELODIYA disc) and the only regret I have is that Brahms wrote only four symphonies. The Second is certainly not a regret.

Give it time. Someday you'll understand, I'm sure.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I sort of feel that way about the 2nd symphony and though I felt that way about the Violin Concerto, but now the violin concerto for me is up there on Mt. Olympus, with the 2nd symphony still wanting. Don't know why.

In other things, the 3rd is my all around favorite, the 1st movement of the 1st is my single favorite movement, and the fourth is great for its 2nd and 4th mvts.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Sometimes there are works even by our favorite composers that just don't resonate for whatever reason. In my case, I can barely stand Beethoven's Eroica variations. I always reach for the mute button if they come on the radio or at random on my iPod, though I am a huge Beethoven fan. 

The Brahms repertoire is wide and wonderful enough. One listen to his Serenade No. 1 and you may not miss the 2nd Symphony. I find the 2nd the least memorable of the four myself -- but I wouldn't want to be completely without it! I think it's cool you can almost hear traces of the famous Brahms lullaby in some of its phrases.


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

I have always loved Brahm's 2nd. I'm getting up there now, but I remember having a passionate discussion about this great work 30 years ago. Somewhere (I don't recall where) I read that some consider it to be Brahm's "sunniest" symphony. I also recall reading that Brahm's considered it his saddest symphony. I agree with the composer. The sadness just bleeds from this work. Almost like the Beethoven feeling of smiling through tears. It is interesting that this discussion has been going on for decades.

I believe that the 2nd Symphony can stand toe to toe with anything that Brahms wrote. And I love Brahms.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Muddy said:


> I have always loved Brahm's 2nd. I'm getting up there now, but I remember having a passionate discussion about this great work 30 years ago. Somewhere (I don't recall where) I read that some consider it to be Brahm's "sunniest" symphony. I also recall reading that Brahm's considered it his saddest symphony. I agree with the composer. The sadness just bleeds from this work. Almost like the Beethoven feeling of smiling through tears. It is interesting that this discussion has been going on for decades.
> 
> I believe that the 2nd Symphony can stand toe to toe with anything that Brahms wrote. And I love Brahms.


"is so melancholy that you will not be able to bear it. I have never written anything so sad, and the score must come out in mourning." - Brahms on his 2nd

This was a joke he was playing on his publisher because of how upbeat the symphony is.

Anyway, I also love this wonderful symphony very much and can't understand how it could be regarded as less than great. The first and last movements are particularly exciting and uplifting for me.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I like the last movement and that's pretty much it.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I'm listening to Brahms' second symphony right now. It's a charming piece of music. Parts are more like a lullaby. 

I have trouble distinguishing the four symphonies of Brahms. But I think this says more about me than Brahms.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I never thought much of the 2nd - it doesn't really grab you by the throat - until I heard Gardiner's recording. There is a lightness to it. Of his Brahms cycle, this symphony is Gardiner's most successful recording, at least to my ears. 

There are nice details which can be easily missed, like in the second movement: there is rhythmic and metric complexity, though it is dark and serious. There's a nice passage at the false recapitulation marked 4/4 (12/8). The third movement starts out bitonal, both hinting at g major and e minor. There are many moments like that.

But as with you, it took me a while to get there.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Manxfeeder said:


> The third movement starts out bitonal, both hinting at g major and e minor. There are many moments like that.
> 
> But as with you, it took me a while to get there.


We're all struggling with our bitonality.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Manxfeeder said:


> The third movement starts out bitonal, both hinting at g major and e minor. There are many moments like that.


I'm not sure if that is truly bitonal though, because the it's basically the same key but in a different mode. It might be considered bi-modal but as I'm listening to the movemnet, I'm honestly struggling to hear that as well. It sounds completely homogenous as far as key centers or modes go.


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

Ok, finally I am starting to really like the symphony. I have been listening to it alot and today it's been in my head since I woke up. I am a bit frustrated that it took this long and that it was this hard, it's not the most complex composition, but whatever, at least I like it now. It will probably never be my favorite Brahms symphony but at least I like it now. My favorite movement is the first one and I think the third one is my least favorite; this can change with time of course.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

BRAHMS symphony 2 i like the movements 1,3,& 4 the most.


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

The more I read about other people's problems / criticisms or this symphony; the more I'm convinced that it is my favourite of 4 amazing symphonies.
For me it is his most straight forward and comprehensible symphony.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Let me go back forty-four years.....

The supposedly bad, cheapy Sawallisch/VSO set was my intro to Brahms first, second and fourth (I had Giulini's 3rd already).

As I recall, the 2nd seemed to be the easiest to like, and the last movement was the most extroverted Brahms I had encountered outside of the Academic F O and the Haydn Variations.

Oddly enough, the older I get, the harder time I have sitting through some of the gentler, relaxed passages such as characterize the earlier movements of this work. And, since I seldom break up pieces by playing individual movements out of context, I find I don't often play the second anymore. 

It's a shame.

I need to learn again how to relax.


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

Vesteralen said:


> Let me go back forty-four years.....
> 
> The supposedly bad, cheapy Sawallisch/VSO set was my intro to Brahms first, second and fourth (I had Giulini's 3rd already).
> 
> ...


It's interesting how this symphony can be the easiest to like for some but the hardest for others.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

No answer to your question about why you don't love the Second. One day (if not already by this time) you might all of a sudden connect with it. Love is even too strong a word for my favorite---his Symphony No.3---though I do like it very much, and clearly prefer some interpretations over others: Kempe/Berlin Philharmonic, Kertesz/Vienna Philharmonic, Tennstedt/London Philharmonic and Klemperer/Philharmonia. The finest Brahms 2 I've heard to date is unquestionably Kertesz' with the London Symphony on BBC Legends cd. Walter/Columbia Symphony and Klemperer/Philharmonia are also very fine.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I do hope O.P sees this , not been seen for a long time.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

DrMuller said:


> It's interesting how this symphony can be the easiest to like for some but the hardest for others.


To my ears, it's Brahms' Pastoral, and not difficult to like - it's his no. 4 I have the most trouble with.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I've always liked the 2nd, although the inner movements are probably my least favorite among the symphonies. It took me hearing/seeing it live for the first time a bunch of years ago to find out how it was put together, and how such a seamless sounding piece as the first movement could be constructed out of something that was all seams!


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

brianvds said:


> To my ears, it's Brahms' Pastoral, and not difficult to like - it's his no. 4 I have the most trouble with.


I find the first two movements of the Fourth wonderfully satisfying, the third movement okay. My trouble comes with the last movement, which I just don't experience as appealing in any way.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

Listen to Bernstein's commentary on the piece in the first 5 minutes of this video. It will give you a renewed appreciation of the work.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

The third movement of the symphony no. 2 contains one of my all time favorite moments in all of Brahms works. The return of the main theme is in the wrong key of F sharp major! But just for a few bars before it slips seamlessly, hauntingly and most beautifully back into the correct key of G major. If you want to hear something truly amazing listen closely for that extraordinary moment.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

DrMuller said:


> Hi.....To be fair I didn't immediately love the other 3, it took quite a few listening sessions but I ended up loving them. This seems to not be happening with the one No. 2. Can someone tell me, is this common or should I give it more time? Is it possible that is simply not as brilliant as the others?


Yes, give more time - listen to some great recordings - Try Monteux/London SO, or Toscanini/NBC, or Bernstein/NYPO...Brahms is not always "love at first listen".
The final coda of last mvt is a real rouser when done well...one of those times when Brahms really lets it rip, with a joyful exuberance...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Haydn67 said:


> The finest Brahms 2 I've heard to date is unquestionably Kertesz' with the London Symphony on BBC Legends cd. Walter/Columbia Symphony and Klemperer/Philharmonia are also very fine.


Lots of good Brahms #2s - Monteux [overall best for me] Toscanini, Bernstein, Solti...
a harder to find, but great live performance - right up there with Monteux/LSO, is Reiner/NYPO - from live concert 3/60. really thrilling - throttle wide open, ultra-extroverted Brahms....


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Haydn67 said:


> I find the first two movements of the Fourth wonderfully satisfying, the third movement okay. My trouble comes with the last movement, which I just don't experience as appealing in any way.


Interesting - Sym #4/IV is a perfect example of Chaconne/passacaglia form - melodic variations over a ground bass...every 8 measures is a new variation - Brahms does this so perfectly, seamlessly that the listener is largely unaware, unless listening specifically for it. Marvelous movement, to combine form and content so perfectly = great artistry...


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Heck148 said:


> Interesting - Sym #4/IV is a perfect example of Chaconne/passacaglia form - melodic variations over a ground bass...every 8 measures is a new variation - Brahms does this so perfectly, seamlessly that the listener is largely unaware, unless listening specifically for it. Marvelous movement, to combine form and content so perfectly = great artistry...


Formwise it may be commendable. Musically, I find it very difficult to enjoy.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Heck148 said:


> Yes, give more time - listen to some great recordings - Try Monteux/London SO, or Toscanini/NBC, or Bernstein/NYPO...Brahms is not always "love at first listen".
> The final coda of last mvt is a real rouser when done well...one of those times when Brahms really lets it rip, with a joyful exuberance...


If you haven't already done so, give a listen to Walter's finale in his New York Philharmonic recording---a *tornado!*


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Haydn67 said:


> If you haven't already done so, give a listen to Walter's finale in his New York Philharmonic recording---a *tornado!*


Yes, I know that one, really blistering tempo - but the sound is too congested, poor recording engineering important details don't come thru- [the descending trombone scales for one] - the NYPO had a great low brass section at the time, so they were playing it, it just doesn't get thru on the recording....
Reiner's, from 1960, gets ripping along pretty good too - not as fast as Walter, but definitely pushing it. with that one, everything comes thru, and how....


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

I previously asked you about that Reiner Brahms 2. Can't seem to access it. Thanks for any suggestions you might have.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Haydn67 said:


> I previously asked you about that Reiner Brahms 2. Can't seem to access it. Thanks for any suggestions you might have.


I have it on an Arlecchino CD. I think it is now NA.....I do think I saw it available on one of the NYPO archival sets, can't remember which one...


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Heck148 said:


> I have it on an Arlecchino CD. I think it is now NA.....I do think I saw it available on one of the NYPO archival sets, can't remember which one...


Tried sending you a reply. Don't know if it went through. Things seem to be very slow on the site.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

DrMuller said:


> Hi. I am new here; in fact this is my first post. I have been listening to classical music for 10 years or so, since I was 20. I am a huge fan of Bach, I love Beethoven and I really getting into Brahms. Actually I love Brahms' symphonies No. 4, 3 and 1; in fact they are now my favorite symphonies. I love how they are constructed, the complexity, the beautiful melodies, the power, and the hint of Bach and Beethoven. I love those 3 symphonies beyond words. But the problem is I am having a hard time loving symphony No. 2. I can't understand why, it just doesn't speak to me like the other 3 do. To be fair I didn't immediately love the other 3, it took quite a few listening sessions but I ended up loving them. This seems to not be happening with the one No. 2. Can someone tell me, is this common or should I give it more time? Is it possible that is simply not as brilliant as the others?


I have felt the same way - my favourite Brahms is the second piano concerto.


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