# Questions about Haydn listening



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

It's finally happened - I am into Haydn now. I never disliked his symphonies, but I had found them just sort of pleasant background music. Well, no longer. I get it now. Order, beauty, lightness, happiness, all that.

So, anyway, I have some questions for Haydn initiates. 

1. What are the best symphonies in your humble opinions? I have the Paris and London symphonies, and have been struck by 82, 83, 85, 93, 94, 101 and 102. What pre-Paris symphonies really stand out?

2. Is the Antal Dorati complete symphonies set a worthy purchase? I'd like to obtain the lot of them and don't much wish to go disc by disc. How about the Adam Fischer set?


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Pleased to hear you are now a Haydn convert
Not all Haydn is lightness and happiness, as will become more evident as you listen more e.g. Sturm und Drang symphonies. Another issue is do you prefer historically informed or modern performances? I enjoy both but they do offer quite different listening perspectives with HIP really making each orchestral section stand out.
Looking at the 2 complete symphony sets you mention, either will give you hours of pleasure. Dorati is a sentimental favourite of mine and a landmark set from the 1970’s and you will not find a poor symphony in the set. Fischer’s set is very good the recording sounds better to me, and I would try comparing those symphonies you do know to make a choice. 
If you want to explore pre-Paris symphonies before going for a full set then I suggest trying Pinnock’s set of the Sturm und Drang symphonies, this has the benefits of experiencing the darker side of Haydn and historical informed performances.
There are other Haydn sets out there including the partially completed set by Fey, and include many earlier symphonies. What I have heard of these I enjoy and it is a shame that this project is unlikely to be completed due to the conductors serious head injury.
I hope this helps and am sure others will add more thoughts


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Ooh, I am a Pinnock fan, so it is good to know that such a set exists. Thanks!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

MatthewWeflen said:


> What pre-Paris symphonies really stand out?


People who are more serious about classical style than I am will give you a fuller answer, but here's a couple I remember. Re Dorati, one thing I've heard said is that the horns are a weakness, so there's something to investigate there.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I don't have any complete Haydn set, but as far as I can tell from what I've sampled, the Adam Fischer is the best, or at least it's the one I'd get. Outside of that, I like conductors like Brüggen, Kuijken, Harnoncourt, and Colin Davis the best in Haydn. Another good one is George Szell, who I suppose would be more akin to Dorati, the more old-school style Haydn. As others may have touched on, it depends on whether you prefer the more HIP style that emphasizes clarity or the older big band style which emphasizes a fullness of sound and more of a connection to later music. One thing I'll say is definitely collect all the Harnoncourt Haydn that you can. His recordings are amazing. He brings so much drama and intensity to the music. I especially like his Concertgebouw recordings, and there is also a great recording of the Seven Last Words oratorio w/ the Concentus Musicus Wien.

Finally, don't restrict yourself to the symphonies. Haydn's string quartets, for example, are phenomenal. I like the London Haydn Quartet recordings on Hyperion and the Kodaly Quartet on Naxos.

Enjoy your exploration. There is so much amazing music in Haydn that it makes one's head spin.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

One conductor I have never really heard with Haydn is Harnoncourt, so I shall have to remedy that PDQ
I shall look for this on Spotify


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

There are a number of Haydn's Symphonies I like prior to his "Paris" lot, but there are three particular favorites--No. 6 "Le Matin", No. 31 "Hornsignal" and No. 38 "Echo". Otherwise, I think the Dorati set is a fine one. I also prefer Szell/Cleveland and Davis/Concertgebouw in the composer's later symphonies. For interpretations which I feel are resplendent and dynamic you might also want to try Hermann Scherchen's recordings, mostly in mono, a few in stereo.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Another vote for the Pinnock set - I bought the discs as they came out and still listen to them often. They are quite unlike any other set, I feel (but perhaps nearer to Fischer than to Bruggen and certainly a long way from Dorati's slower and more Romantic approach). It isn't a complete set (there is Fischer for that) and of course there are none of the late great symphonies (but there are many excellent choices for the London symphonies) but you can get a lot of Haydn onto six CDs.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

This has been my favourite Haydn symphony for a long time. 2nd movement is especially nice. Always liked his writing for horns.






Also this


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

If I were going for a complete set, I might do the Fischer. He gets it right more often than not. Try him for 51 and 76. I'd also recommend:

8 with the Apollo Ensemble
48 with the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra

Haydn's Masses are a fine section of his output. You might start with the Nelson Mass with Bernstein.

I also quite like the divertimenti with piano performed by the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt. Van Swieten Trio has done some amazing trios of his.

There's plenty more, but I don't want this post to grow too long.


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## StDior (May 28, 2015)

Based on my superficial knowledge, I recommend these pre-Parisian symphonies: (Actually I feel so that it can be hard to found any Haydn symphony which is not a masterpiece.)
6 ( Le matin), 7	(Le midi)	
13 
26 (Lamentatione)	
31 (Hornsignal),	39 (Tempesta di mare)	
43 (Mercury), 44 (Trauer),	45 (Farewell), 49 (La passione)
53 (L'impériale) 
70 
73 ( La chasse) 

The London symphonies are definitely the more sophisticated ones, however formerly I liked the Sturm und Drang symphonies more (which are roughly from no.40-50).
Earlier I did not like the 3rd movements, the menuets. Even I skipped them sometimes. Recently I discovered that these are the best movements at some of the symphonies. For example check the symphony no. 88 or 97 menuets. Especially the trio parts are like gems in the middle of these menuets.
One more thing that when I just started to listening to classical music, I preferred Beethoven or Mozart and did not understand why Haydn is so great. Now I feel that they are in the same league. It is not surprise for me anymore if somebody states that at symphonies Haydn might be the best of them.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

A couple of suggestions:

Don't neglect the symphonies between the Paris and London sets (88-92); they are all superb. If you can find Brüggen's recordings, they're the way to go.

There's an ongoing series conducted by Giovanni Antonini that's excellent. You can sample them via Spotify, but this will probably end up as my "go to" set of Haydn symphonies.

Finally, be sure to listen to #60, "Il Distratto":


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Beyond the 12 London Symphonies and the 6 Paris Symphonies, I reckon there are 86 others worth hearing.

The best pickings elsewhere are the so-called Sturm und Drang works. They are not an exclusive or explicitly defined set or anything, but the survey by Trevor Pinnock on DGG Archiv is exceptional. My favourite of the whole lot of 104 is No.26 "Lamentations". Of the Sturm und Drang works, anything with a nickname is a good starting point, but whatever you do, don't just limit yourself to these named ones. Just look at the Londons; Nos.95 and 102 (aka "The Nicknameless") are among the very best of the set!

The five works sandwiched between Paris and London (should be called the Channel Symphonies!) are ludicrously overlooked too.

Is Dorati worth getting. Yes! He's far more consistent than either Fischer or Marzendorfer, both of whom are really excellent. Oddly enough, the least successful Dorati symphony is........a very stodgy No.26!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Any suggestions on which string quartets are the most interesting? Haydn has not really clicked for me with the exception of the vocal works. I have a complete set of quartets by the Angeles Quartet which I haven't really explored much. I can't seem to get into the symphonies. I've tried Colin Davis but I didn't find them very engaging. I guess I'm just not hearing the magic.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

_1. Introduzione in D minor - Maestoso ed Adagio
2. Sonata I ("Pater, dimitte illis, quia nesciunt, quid faciunt") in B-flat major - Largo
3. Sonata II ("Hodie mecum eris in paradiso") in C minor, ending in C major - Grave e cantabile
4. Sonata III ("Mulier, ecce filius tuus") in E major - Grave
5. Sonata IV ("Deus meus, Deus meus, utquid dereliquisti me") in F minor - Largo
6. Sonata V ("Sitio") in A major - Adagio
7. Sonata VI ("Consummatum est") in G minor, ending in G major - Lento
8. Sonata VII ("In manus tuas, Domine, commendo spiritum meum") in E-flat major - Largo
9. Il terremoto (Earthquake) in C minor - Presto e con tutta la forza

Haydn uses an extremely wide range of tonalities for a composition of the time. Musicologist Mark Spitzer observes of this: "In its tonal freedom [it] anticipates [Haydn's] late Masses, particularly the Harmoniemesse ... The only other Classical 'multi-piece' which spreads itself across the entire tonal gamut with this architectural breadth is Beethoven's String Quartet in C♯ minor, op. 131 ... Why, then, is Beethoven given credit for experimental daring when Haydn, once again, gets there first?"_

(I do appreciate Beethoven Op.131 also. I'm just posting this quote just as an interesting fact regarding Haydn)


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

starthrower said:


> Any suggestions on which string quartets are the most interesting? Haydn has not really clicked for me with the exception of the vocal works. I have a complete set of quartets by the Angeles Quartet which I haven't really explored much. I can't seem to get into the symphonies. I've tried Colin Davis but I didn't find them very engaging. I guess I'm just not hearing the magic.


A vote for Bernstein with the later symphonies. Szell too. No Haydn collector should be without his #93 - one listen will tell you why. 

It seems to me that the best known quartet set is Op. 76 (six quartets). I used to have only one set - the Amadeus Quartet. Several years back I added the Quatour Mosaiques. It was part of a box set then at a value price, but it doesn't seem to be available at this time.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I've been away from the forum for a few hours, thanks for all the great suggestions.

I do have one DSD recording of 22,44, and 64 by Marco Boni/Concertgebouw Chamber Orchestra. It's fine, but I must say I do so far prefer "Big Band" Haydn. I'm sure this will elicit some scoffs, but what has gotten me on this kick is Karajan's Paris/London set. It's the one I had from my box set. The sound he gets from the BPO is quite addictive, but it seems to me that the music is still playful and light.

Anyway, the Fischer set is on its way to me. I will investigate the Pinnock after that.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I dialed up the Fischer symphony box on YT starting with No.6. These sound really good.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Brahmsian Colors said:


> There are a number of Haydn's Symphonies I like prior to his "Paris" lot, but there are three particular favorites--No. 6 "Le Matin", No. 31 "Hornsignal" and No. 38 "Echo". Otherwise, I think the Dorati set is a fine one. I also prefer Szell/Cleveland and Davis/Concertgebouw in the composer's later symphonies. For interpretations which I feel are resplendent and dynamic you might also want to try Hermann Scherchen's recordings, mostly in mono, a few in stereo.


The first two classical albums I ever owned were by Scherchen. One was Haydn; the other was Beethoven. They were given to me by my piano teacher when I was about 6.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

starthrower said:


> Any suggestions on which string quartets are the most interesting? Haydn has not really clicked for me with the exception of the vocal works. I have a complete set of quartets by the Angeles Quartet which I haven't really explored much. I can't seem to get into the symphonies. I've tried Colin Davis but I didn't find them very engaging. I guess I'm just not hearing the magic.


I started with op.76 and op.33. Both are excellent. I like the Kodály Quartet in both cases.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Op.76 are debatably "the best", but a lot of Opus sets have merits aplenty. I'm quite partial to the three Op.55 Quartets myself....

As above, the Kodaly Quartet boss it (as I believe the youth of today would say)


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

If you haven't seen it yet, stop whatever you are doing and watch this:

It's the finale to Haydn's Symphony 88. Bernstein just finished performing it and this is the encore where he conducts everything with just facial expressions. It makes me so happy.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I like how this video is titled "Beethoven Symphonies: Most Badass Passages", but a lot of their connections to Haydn symphonies is also discussed:






One of the strangest Haydn symphonies is the 49th, "La Passione"






_1. Adagio
2. Allegro di molto
3. Menuet e Trio
4. Presto

The symphony is homotonal as all the movements are in F minor, although the trio is in F major, providing a glimpse of brightness in the generally pessimistic scene. The two quick movements are notable for their forward drive and relentless energy._


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

starthrower said:


> I dialed up the Fischer symphony box on YT starting with No.6. These sound really good.


I streamed Eugene Jochum and was impressed though I own the Davis set. I have Fischer 12 London and some early ones in a set. However when I compare Fischer to Jochum, I prefer Jochum.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Fredrikalansson (Jan 29, 2019)

When it comes to the London symphonies, I whole heartedly recommend Eugen Jochum and the LSO. They're old fashioned big band performances, but they exemplify Jochum's ability to indulge in expansive tempi, and yet maintain the forward pulse. And he takes an unbuttoned approach: everything is wit, geniality and sunshine. Even conductors like Colin Davis and Harnoncourt sound dour by comparison. Jochum's are life enhancing performances, which is surely what Hadyn intended.

Also, if you're getting into Hadyn, don't neglect the choral works. I find Hadyn's choral works far more involving than those by Mozart. (Although Mozart far surpasses Hadyn in opera and concerti.) But here are some of my favourites with recommended recordings:

The Creation: My current favourite is Christophers, but also recommend Dorati, Munchinger, von Karajan (for the Soloists) and Hogwood. Avoid Gardiner; the performance is marred by Sylvia McNair's overly breathy and affected reading.
The Seasons: my favourite is still Dorati, but recommend Gardiner, Bohm and Jacobs. Some may like McCreesh, but I find he is so intent on making a point (in this case, how large-scale Hadyn works) that he can become overly portentous, the kiss of death in Hadyn.
Nelson Mass: Willcocks or Pinnock
Missa in Tempori Belli: Harnoncourt
Theresa Mass: Pinnock
Seven Last Words (choral): Harnoncourt
Stabat Mater: Pinnock

Finally, I highly recommend the string quartet version of the Seven Last Words. A profoundly spiritual experience, more intimate than the choral or orchestral versions. Lots of good recordings, but Rosamund, Emerson and Cuertetto di Casals are among my favourites. 

Funny item: my auto correct rendered Missa in Tempori Belli as Miss in Temporary Bellies. Glad I caught it!


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

^^^^ Auto correct is awful. Apparently the Highs bosom was discovered at the large hardon colluder in Switzerland  It didn't catch your HaYDn, though. Sorry, just being mean. :devil:

Agree about Gardiner's Creation, but I do like his series of Mass recordings, originally on Philips. I'd also back you on Dorati for The Seasons. Could not agree more on Jochum, there are quite a few regulars here who aren't afraid to extol his virtues, for me his Beethoven is supreme.

I need to be in the right mood for Seven Last Words, I'll be honest. I didn't know the choral version until a couple of years ago (Harnoncourt's), and it did help make more sense of the Quartet version.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I concur about Haydn and suggest you listen for inner voices,, a Haydn specialty. The concept of "best" Haydn symphonies is fraught with danger since many who say the "best" are the late ones ignore wonderful early symphonies with those inner voices and development.

I would suggest not buying any set of his symphonies although, if you must, I'd say Dorati's is the best bet. Fischer's is pretty good and made with the orchestra and in the place where Haydn worked but Dorati was first and, I think, still the best. Dorati is criticized a lot for slowness but his band is fruity and plays with commitment. Thomas Beecham didn't record them all but his are still around and full of humor, high spirits and charm.

There are lots of period performance sets if that interests you. I like Bruggen's set of sturm and drang symphonies but they are all over the place in many ways -- sometimes wonderful, sometimes crude. I would avoid Haydn-makers that make him sound like Beethoven such as Davis and Pinnock. Haydn wasn't Beethoven and shouldn't sound like him.

My favorite Haydn symphonies are 6-8, 13, 31, 39, 41, 52, 59, 60, 70, 72, 86, 90 and I occasionally listen to 102. Lots of people like the later ones better; I don't question their greatness but they often lack the charm of the earlier symphonies and sound more like Beethoven to me than Haydn. Plus I think anyone can make 103-104 sound like masterpieces but not so with 7, 13, 39 or 52.

Dennis Blum led a hand-picked orchestra and recorded Haydn when few others were. His work still stands up today and projects inner voices better than most that have come in the intervening years. He only recorded about 10 of them but they are worth your ear and time.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I might have get the Fischer set so I can listen to them all. I just want to find those beautiful movements tucked away in these symphonies. I heard some beautiful music in No.6 the other day.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

My favourite Haydn symphony recordings are Bernstein's Paris symphonies and Szell's early London ones. Big band yeah, but I find HIP Haydn to be too thin for my liking.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Gallus said:


> My favourite Haydn symphony recordings are Bernstein's Paris symphonies and Szell's early London ones. Big band yeah, but I find HIP Haydn to be too thin for my liking.


Bernstein/Paris, Szell/London are great choices..add to that Reiner's non pareil #88 (with 95 & 101) and you have some great Haydn.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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