# Immortal Beloved



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Do you enjoy this film?

I think it's enjoyable.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Gary Oldman confesses in another movie:


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The movie *Immortal Beloved *has good performances and great music, but the story is rather um impressive and the “mystery” not much of one.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

OK as long as you put your history hat away. A lot more historical than Amadeus though.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

I loved the older Beethoven movie ,forget the name 40's era ,a French film with English sub titles.Best Beethoven film I think ,have not seen in 25 years.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Noticed this thread and have to comment. If you have done any scholarly reading, you will realize that these are all for entertainment. The best part of these films is the music of course. I was per se not interested in the identity of this woman - except that her identity, her life, and relationship with Beethoven - had an impact on Beethoven’s musical output. 

The Germans put forth a film, ‘Louis van Beethoven’ (maybe 2020), with English sub-titles, which takes viewers from his childhood through December 1826. It does not visit the question of the Immortal Beloved.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

bagpipers said:


> I loved the older Beethoven movie ,forget the name 40's era ,a French film with English sub titles.Best Beethoven film I think ,have not seen in 25 years.


I think there was a film by Abel Gance in the 1930s?


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Thanks, yes, there is an old one and I need to look it up. I think the Beethoven-haus Has it listed. I think this is the One.

There is also a good documentary, ‘In search of Beethoven’ (also done for Mozart and Haydn I think by same person) and a docudrama (Eroica) which is on youtube.

This may be the film Eroica 1949.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

MAS said:


> I think there was a film by Abel Gance in the 1930s?


Precisely,yes it was the Abel Gance ,a true must see


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Caroline said:


> The Germans put forth a film, ‘Louis van Beethoven’ (maybe 2020), with English sub-titles, which takes viewers from his childhood through December 1826. It does not visit the question of the Immortal Beloved.


I saw this on TV in Germany when it came out either 2019 (I think it was around Xmas 2019) or 2020. It focusses mostly on childhood and youth, incl. the doubtful meeting with Mozart and Vienna and intersperses it with a few scenes of the cranky old Beethoven staying with his brother. It's not offensively bad but mediocre and rather boring and obviously leaves out almost all the "real Beethoven", i.e. 1792-1825...


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> It focusses mostly on childhood and youth, incl. the doubtful meeting with Mozart and Vienna and intersperses it with a few scenes of the cranky old Beethoven staying with his brother. It's not offensively bad


Well put. It’s not offensively bad And One of its value’s is that it is through ‘German’ (sorry - see below) eyes - a different perspective. I think that is valuable. The films and documentaries done recently are done by Americans (and maybe Phil Grabsky is a Brit?)

On the identity of the Immortal Beloved I think that many/most of German scholars believe the woman was Josephine von Brunswick. Not sure why the Anglo/American community believes it was Antoine Brentano. It has been suggested by some that the Tellenbach and other books were not translated from German into English. 

Wonder if you have any thoughts about that. I realize it’s off the film thread…but….


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

The Antonie Brentano identification was made by Maynard Solomon in the early 1970s and his detective work was impressive. The drumbeat for Josefina Brunswick von Deym continues, however,.for reasons that have never personally made sense. But take your pick.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I have the Cleanflix version of the film, so it doesn't have the gratituious naughty bits. As to the film, I like the way Gary Oldham depicts Beethoven. Also, I like the way individual musical events are protrayed. Sure, the overarching storyline is bogus (it's basically Citizen Kane), but I like the music.


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

The ode to joy scene gets me every time😢


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Caroline said:


> Noticed this thread and have to comment. If you have done any scholarly reading, you will realize that these are all for entertainment. The best part of these films is the music of course. I was per se not interested in the identity of this woman - except that her identity, her life, and relationship with Beethoven - had an impact on Beethoven’s musical output.
> 
> The Germans put forth a film, ‘Louis van Beethoven’ (maybe 2020), with English sub-titles, which takes viewers from his childhood through December 1826. It does not visit the question of the Immortal Beloved.


Yes, the power of the music, shown as it is, makes this story more relatable and eye-opening. It's like a mystery you come to understand. And you better understand/feel the personal conflicts. I was corresponding with a women who was writing a book on Beethoven at the time of this movie, and she detested the whole idea. So we disagreed about the movie.

I approved of the treatment given to the sister-in-law in the movie. For me, it brings home the feelings of ego and fate and frustration that Ludwig experienced again and again in his life. And then in his late works he seems to rise above the human relationship issues and comes to a serenity. We wouldn't expect it. And the story fits well into this 3rd period change-over. He's still fighting all out, here and there, but he also seems to see the bigger picture of the world and his life and his achievements.

It's from Schindler's point of view, IMO, which is not accurate. The director is very kind to Schindler's character in the movie, which is refreshing and seems to work -- because he was actually a light-weight. I guess if Schindler's showing us his conclusions - then it stands to reason that he would also portray himself as upstanding, kind and clever enough to figure out the deep secret.

I was surprised that in 1824 Beethoven gave Johanna back part of a pension the court had set aside for Karl's education.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Tarneem said:


> The ode to joy scene gets me every time😢


Yeah, that's great.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

MarkW said:


> The Antonie Brentano identification was made by Maynard Solomon in the early 1970s and his detective work was impressive. The drumbeat for Josefina Brunswick von Deym continues, however,.for reasons that have never personally made sense. But take your pick.


There's a speculation that Beethoven wrote the famous letter to extricate himself from the 'relationship' with Josefina. It's murky.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Caroline said:


> Well put. It’s not offensively bad And One of its value’s is that it is through ‘German’ (sorry - see below) eyes - a different perspective. I think that is valuable. The films and documentaries done recently are done by Americans (and maybe Phil Grabsky is a Brit?)
> 
> On the identity of the Immortal Beloved I think that many/most of German scholars believe the woman was Josephine von Brunswick. Not sure why the Anglo/American community believes it was Antoine Brentano. It has been suggested by some that the Tellenbach and other books were not translated from German into English.
> 
> Wonder if you have any thoughts about that. I realize it’s off the film thread…but….


What about Julietta Guicciardi


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I just gave it another watch for the first time in a while, got about half way through and decided it's a movie about a genius without actually being a genius film itself.

Still fun though!


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> It's from Schindler's point of view, IMO, which is not accurate.


Good connection to make. 🙂 Schindler even in the 19th century was not considered a particularly reputable source - so telling the story from his perspective tells us something. 



bagpipers said:


> What about Julietta Guicciardi


She was ruled out - two things that come to mind an interview with Guilietta’s grand-daughter after Guilietta’s death, indicated that she did not have romantic interest in Beethoven. There are no indications/letters they were on a ‘du’ basis. She was also in Italy in July 1812.

A very biographical work is the 3-part series by the BBC, which is on youtube - Here.


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## ClassicalMaestro (Dec 10, 2017)

Caroline said:


> Thanks, yes, there is an old one and I need to look it up. I think the Beethoven-haus Has it listed. I think this is the One.
> 
> There is also a good documentary, ‘In search of Beethoven’ (also done for Mozart and Haydn I think by same person) and a docudrama (Eroica) which is on youtube.
> 
> This may be the film Eroica 1949.


I was watching these over the weekend. I like the Forte pianist Ronald Brautigam he's brilliant.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

ClassicalMaestro said:


> I was watching these over the weekend. I like the Forte pianist Ronald Brautigam he's brilliant.


Brautigam is awesome - and _if interested_, other performances of Beethoven forte piano works include Immerseel’s piano concertos and Staier for solo and chamber are very enjoyable (Staier has a new album to be released in a few days!). The Bilson collection (actually different performers on different period instruments) is also excellent.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

The thing Immortal Beloved got right was the character of Beethoven and his relationships with his nephew. Stunning performance from Gary Oldman.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I thought the movie was dreck, like nearly all movies about composers, although I think Oldman is a wonderful actor. 

As for period instruments performances of Beethoven's piano music, I imagine Beethoven would think us insane. He would have killed to hear them on a modern piano — well, I guess he'd have killed to hear them on any piano .


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## ClassicalMaestro (Dec 10, 2017)

Caroline said:


> Brautigam is awesome - and _if interested_, other performances of Beethoven forte piano works include Immerseel’s piano concertos and Staier for solo and chamber are very enjoyable (Staier has a new album to be released in a few days!). The Bilson collection (actually different performers on different period instruments) is also excellent.


Thanks you I will them out.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

^^^^^^^^
"Good connection to make. 🙂 Schindler even in the 19th century was not considered a particularly reputable source - so telling the story from his perspective tells us something."

Yes. I think it tells us they needed a titillating story with in-law issues and brother issues and a volatile genius raising a child, under all the stress of the patronage system, on and on. 
It's expensive to make a film like that and they were hoping for a wider audience. We won't get more if they lost a lot of money. I don't know if they did.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> It's expensive to make a film like that and they were hoping for a wider audience. We won't get more if they lost a lot of money. I don't know if they did.


You got me curious about the revenue. It grossed about $10M to Amadeus $52M (worldwide). Have no idea of the cost to produce - likely a big budget - cast members were mostly big names.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Caroline said:


> You got me curious about the revenue. It grossed about $10M to Amadeus $52M (worldwide). Have no idea of the cost to produce - likely a big budget - cast members were mostly big names.


 I see, thanks. I don't know much about the money side of the business, but I would think that this kind of film could be re-issued every five or 10 years for the people who missed it and heard about it and then wish they had seen it. Since it's not about current events or current problems like some movies.


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