# Mahler: Symphony No. 5



## Rachovsky

I was curious of what you all thought the best recording of Symphony No. 5 was by Mahler. I looked in my little Classical Music book and it gave me Leonard Bernstein's live recording with Vienna Philharmonic and John Barbirolli. I personally like Michael Tilson Thomas' interpretations of Mahler and from the samples on iTunes, it sounds exceptional. What is everyone's suggestions as to which recording I should buy?

Thanks


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## shsherm

The music critic of the Dallas Morning News suggested The Philharmonia with Benjamin Zander which I purchased but my personal favorite is the re-issue of the Chicago Symphony with Solti which was recorded around 1970.


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## Guest

I have 'The London Philharmonic' with Klaus Tennstedt It was a live recording at the 1988 Royal Festival Hall, it has that extra excitement that you get with a live recording.


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## Gustav

that depends on what you meant by "best".


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## Rachovsky

I would want it to be loud and fast, for one. I listened to John Barbirolli's and it has a slower, softer sound to it. I'm sure Bernstein's would be load and fierce, which sounds like me. You tell me though, which interpretation do YOU like the best.


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## david johnson

solti/chicago

dj


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## Yagan Kiely

Bernstein for me.


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## rich23434565

Barbirolli is great in the first two movements and the adagietto although I prefer Rattle (BPO) in the tremendous scherzo and the final movement. It's a wonderful symphony though!


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## Gustav

i heard lots of 5ths, and i don't really have a favorite. The the only one that left an impression on me was Barshai's 5th with Junge Deutsche Philharmonie, it is coupled with Mahler's 10th also, and the 10th is actually one of the best too.


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## missmaestro

i enjoy Bernstein


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## BuddhaBandit

For the Bandit, a longtime Mahlerite, Solti/CSO gets top spot, followed by Rattle/BPO.


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## Rondo

I second the Solti and Rattle.


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## Rachovsky

I went ahead and bought Bernstein since on iTunes it said he did such an amazing powerful job. I was actually a little disappointed. The opening horn wasn't even as good as I expected. I assume I will have to get Solti or Rattle next or maybe one of the lesser known ones that you all have mentioned.

Thanks


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## Chi_townPhilly

I've been watching this thread with interest, since I've earlier described Mahler's 5th as "my favorite symphony not written by somebody named 'Beethoven.'" 

I actually prefer Tennstedt to Solti, but Solti's a great recommendation as well... so I remained silent 'til now. 

We may not live long enough to ever hear anyone do as great a job on the initial exposed-Trumpet-solo as the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's Adolph Herseth.

A CTP-seal-of-approval on the consensus recommendation here- ... and an enjoinder to take TalkClassical consensus recommendations more seriously next time- O.K.?


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## Rachovsky

Ok, so I went on YouTube and typed both Tennstedt (whom I didn't recognize until I remembered that this was the guy whose podium fell down while conducting Gotterdammerung) and Adolph Herseth and they both brought up nothing on Mahler's 5th. So tell me, are you suggesting that I buy the recording with CSO, or the recording with the LSO? I'll look on iTunes when I get a free chance later.


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## shsherm

Try Google for Adolph Herseth. The many times I attended the CSO concerts when he was principal trumpet were all great perfomances. He was probably the greatest symphonic trumpet player of the 20th century. During passages requiring strong playing, his face would turn bright red from the effort he provided. He was principal trumpet for 53 years which is also a record.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Rachovsky said:


> So tell me, are you suggesting that I buy the recording with CSO, or the recording with the LSO?


My point was this: when *shsherm* AND *david johnson* AND *BuddhaBandit* AND *Rondo* expressed support for the Solti/Chicago Symphony Orchestra recording, I think you're on very safe ground acquiring the CSO recording.


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## Rachovsky

When I acquire enough money to do so, I most certainly will. I bought the recording of the 8th Symphony with Solti and, although I personally am not a fan of the 8th, it was a good recording. iTunes just had to split it up into tons of parts to get more money as well. I bought Tchaikovsky's 4th, 5th, and 6th Symphonies today so I will be hooked on those for a while.


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## DonDiego256

Hi, I'm new here and this is my first post!

My favorite is Karajan's.


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## Guest

Rachovsky said:


> Ok, so I went on YouTube and typed both Tennstedt (whom I didn't recognize until I remembered that this was the guy whose podium fell down while conducting Gotterdammerung) and Adolph Herseth and they both brought up nothing on Mahler's 5th. So tell me, are you suggesting that I buy the recording with CSO, or the recording with the LSO? I'll look on iTunes when I get a free chance later.


Get them both, they should be pretty cheap if they are still available


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## anon2k2

A couple that haven't been mentioned before are Giuseppe Sinopoli with Philharmonia and Eliahu Inbal with Frankfurt Radio Symphony. Both are wonderful, with my preference being the Sinopoli. The opening trumpet call is spine-tingling. Recently, I have become quite taken with Zander's recording as well.


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## Rondo

I also find Zander's Mahler to be pretty good. I have his 6th and have heard his 1st, worth checking out.


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## Moldyoldie

After hearing several recordings, the first to make any semblance of "perfect sense" to me was, surprisingly, the aforementioned *Barshai/JDP/Brilliant*; it remains the one I'd recommend to a novice. Only after digesting that one did I have the mental wherewithall to again tackle the likes of Sinopoli/Philharmonia/DG, Bernstein/VPO/DG, and Haitink/BPO/Philips. I must say, however, that I have a soft spot for the protracted fifteen minute _Adagietto_ of that last one.


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## World Violist

Based on various accolades he has found himself through Mahler, I would say Tilson-Thomas sounds like a great modern recording of Mahler 5. Though I've not heard many recordings of it, either (recently I've been listening a lot to 2, 6, and 8), I can't say much, so I'll be back when I've actually listened to it a lot more. It's certainly one of my favorites, though, since I first listened to it.


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## Rmac58

The only version I've heard is CSO, Solti, ripping it now. I can't compare it, as I haven't heard any other recording. This is part of a complete, well, mostly symphony set on the London label. And the cheesy speakers on the computer...


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## SamGuss

I have Farbermann's recording with the London Symphony (Vox Classics) - which was one of my very first buys.

I enjoy it - but if I had known then what I know now.... Yeah, I see this being replaced in the future.


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## shsherm

I heard the Bernstein New York Philharmonic on the radio a few weeks ago and found it an exciting version.


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## Ludovyk

shsherm said:


> I heard the Bernstein New York Philharmonic on the radio a few weeks ago and found it an exciting version.


I remember the rough notes sforzando, in the low strings at the end of the Adagietto... Lenny 100%!!!


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## Badinerie

Another vote for Barbirolli here. A marvelous EMI Recording.


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## bongos

I listened to the following Mahler 5 s.I am not a performance critic .I am a novice listener with an ear for acoustics , microphoning and emotional impact on me 
Dudamel /Bolivar Youth orchestra Venezuela 
Abbado/CSO on DG
Abbado /BPO live at the Philharmonie 
Sinopoli/Philharmonia 
Haitink/Concertgebouw
Chailly/Concertgebouw
Boulez/VPO
Solti /CSO 
Karajan/BPO
Solti/Tonnhalle Orchester Zurich
Bernstein /VPO 
Barbirolli/New Philharmonia 
Solti/VPO in Vienna on Decca 
Tennstedt/LPO 
Zweden /LPO
Saraste/Finnish SO 
McKerras/Royal Liverpool
The ones that had the greatest impact on me were 
Barbirolli /Philharmonia
Solti /Chicago
followed by
Karajan/BPO
Haitink/Concertgebouw
Abbado/BPO live


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## Atabey

Barbirolli, Tennstedt, Bertini, Wit and Jansons' new one from Concertgebouw.


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## EarlyCuyler

Mehta/NYPO. This was recorded in 1989. It is one of the most exciting recordings of anything ever made. It is also the best recording EVER made by the New York Philharmonic. The brass is otherworldly. Especially the trombones and tuba. Not to mention Phil Smith's impeccable principal trumpet. I have heard better horn section sounds however. Notably the RCO/Chailly. The woodwinds and strings are amazing as well.


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## handlebar

The M5 by Rattle on DVD is good as well as the Zander, Tilson Thomas and Barbirolli. Also admire the Boulez.

Jim


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## bongos

yes the Boulez /VPO Mahler 5 has a great opening trumpet !


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## bongos

I listened to the Mahler 5 by Antoni Wit /National Symphony orchestra of Polish Radio and Television but Im afraid the NAXOS sound is poor , no detail , sounds jumbled all over the stage just like the Naxos Bruckner series


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## Conor71

My favourite is the Barbirolli/New Philharmonia Orchestra version (only own this + Karajan/BPO version at the moment though)


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## World Violist

I've heard the two Bernstein recordings, neither of which remotely stimulated me. I suppose I shouldn't say neither REMOTELY stimulated me, because I knew the symphony had to be better than that. So I bought the Barbirolli recording a while back, and it's spectacular.

I still don't pretend to understand this symphony very well at all, mind you. It's just hard to wrap my mind around, along with the 7th. I suppose I'll just have to give the both of them time. I had the same problem with the Sibelius symphonies: the ones I like most (3, 6, and 7) are the first ones I bought, and therefore I got to know them before I learned the more extroverted symphonies, which I still don't really care for.


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## Lisztfreak

I've heard only the Mehta/LAPO recording. It seems very good, but I cannot compare it.


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## Mirror Image

For Symphony No. 5, I thoroughly enjoyed Rattle's live reading with the BPO. I also enjoyed Barenboim and the CSO, Riccardo Chailly and the RCO, and Solti with the CSO, but I also enjoyed some not so well-known conductors like Harold Farberman with the LSO and David Zinman with the Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra.

Other readings of the 5th I enjoyed:

Tennstedt - LPO
Haitink - RCO
Levine - Philadelphia Orchestra
Inbal - Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orch.
Maazel - VPO
Bernstein - VPO


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## Mirror Image

World Violist said:


> I've heard the two Bernstein recordings, neither of which remotely stimulated me. I suppose I shouldn't say neither REMOTELY stimulated me, because I knew the symphony had to be better than that. So I bought the Barbirolli recording a while back, and it's spectacular.


I openly recommend without any reservation Simon Rattle and the BPO's take on Mahler 5. You should definitely hear this. I'm not sure, which versions of the 5th you own, but I can honestly say that hearing a different version sometimes opens you up a little more.

You know I felt the same way about Bruckner's 2nd and 3rd symphonies. They're still a little difficult for me, but I enjoy them a lot more now, especially since I own many versions of them now.

I actually liked Mahler's 5th the first time I heard it, which was with Rafael Kubelik and the Bavarian Radio Symphony. I really like this symphony, but I can see where some might have a tougher time with it.

The Mahler symphony I still struggle with are the 3rd and the 8th. My favorites are 2, 5, 6, and 9.


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## World Violist

Mirror Image said:


> The Mahler symphony I still struggle with are the 3rd and the 8th. My favorites are 2, 5, 6, and 9.


You should definitely try Seiji Ozawa's recording of Mahler's 8th with the Boston Symphony. It's out of print, but Amazon has other vendors who have it pretty reasonably, and if you want to splurge a bit, Ozawa did record the whole cycle in a box with the BSO. It is one of those recordings that literally make you rethink your whole conception of the piece, Ozawa's Mahler 8. It is a marvel. And it features the outright best opening organ chords of any recording I've ever heard.

As for the 5th, I feel like I should find another recording of it. Maybe I'll go for the Rattle/BPO next. Two Brits and two American recordings (same conductor though...). Splendid.


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## Mirror Image

World Violist said:


> You should definitely try Seiji Ozawa's recording of Mahler's 8th with the Boston Symphony. It's out of print, but Amazon has other vendors who have it pretty reasonably, and if you want to splurge a bit, Ozawa did record the whole cycle in a box with the BSO. It is one of those recordings that literally make you rethink your whole conception of the piece, Ozawa's Mahler 8. It is a marvel. And it features the outright best opening organ chords of any recording I've ever heard.
> 
> As for the 5th, I feel like I should find another recording of it. Maybe I'll go for the Rattle/BPO next. Two Brits and two American recordings (same conductor though...). Splendid.


I heard you mention Ozawa's Mahler before, but I was unsure of how good it would be. I'm sure it is very good. I like Ozawa anyway. I saw that box set of his. It is really expensive! I'll have to wait on that one! 

Yes, give that Rattle a try. It's very good.


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## SixFootScowl

This one is very good:


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## Merl

Some of my favourites:


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## JACE

These two Mahler Fifths are tops in my book:









Kubelik, Bavarian RSO (Audite)









Bernstein, Vienna PO (DG)


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## Pugg

I still like the Karajan also very much, I know controversial but hey, it's my time.


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## Merl

OMG, I forgot my current favourites, Ivan Fischer with the Budapest FO and Honeck with the Pittsburgh SO . If you haven't heard them then do yerselves a favour. Both are superb (especially the Honeck)


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## 13hm13

*Mahler 5*

What makes or breaks the _performance_ of #5 is pacing (I prefer quick) and tightness (all the musicians are "temporally aligned" -- i.e, on cue).

Another important thing: for the recording (can't speak for actual/live) the balance engineering must be carefully/proactively "programmed". Mahler "bounces" instrument sounds (like muted trumpets and clarinets in high relief) at various times; std/generic mike placement on the orch. stage often misses or de-emphasizes these effects. The recording engineer must, IMO, be very intimately familiar with this work ahead of time in order to capture its acoustics.

This is by far my fave Mahler work and one of my fave classical works of them all. I think I've heard most recordings mentioned in this thread.

For performance, the fast-paced Mehta/Los Angeles (London/Decca 1976) is top. It is also a very clear/dynamic recording (as are many Decca's from the mid-late 1970s). Unfortunately, the balance engineering misses or under-emphasizes certain elements.





-------

While I'm not particularly impressed with the sloppy 1997 Koln performance by CSO/Barenboim, the balance engineering is perhaps its saving grace:





The 1997 Koln recording's engineering is intimate and "chambery".

Balance engineering seems to have been somewhat "standardizing" over the past dozen years, so you end up with large, open, full sound with plenty of deep-bass capture. For example:















++


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## Heck148

Either Solti/CSO will do it for me - 1970, and 1990. I heard the live #5 in March of '70 @ Carnegie Hall...amazing!! greatest concert I've ever heard. No recording could ever capture the incredible somority of the final pages of this work, the way it was played at that Carnegie Hall concert so long ago.
Abbado/CSO is also really tops, as well,and in some ways recorded better by DG.
for historical interest - Walter/NYPO from 1947 is most valuable.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Tennstedt/London Philharmonic
Kubelik/Bavarian Radio Orchestra


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## SixFootScowl

Shipway is a good one.


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## Pugg

Abbado and the B.P is a very good contender.


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## KJ von NNJ

For a more sunnier, affirmative approach to the 5th, Jukka Pekka Saraste's Virgin recording with the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra is a good one. Some may not care for it. One person I know called it 'Mahler lite', but I don't think it has to be heavier than heaven to enjoy it. I think it is quite satisfying and one may come away from it feeling elated by this impressive recording. Saraste had recently recorded the symphony again. I have not heard it though.
If I want it hard and fast, I find the Solti/CSO 1970 Decca recording to be perfect. It's really exciting and has super-human playing. At 66 minutes it's among the fastest I know but has plenty of passion if not the depth. As for Lenny, his DG/VPO recording is a bit over-wrought and sludgy to me. His Sony suffers from bad sound and occasionally scrappy ensemble playing. I like Lenny on video with the VPO. It's from the DVD set of Mahler symphonies that Lenny recorded in the 1970's.
Others I like are Abbado/BPO which has wonderful detail, Chailly/RCO and Tennstedt's live performance from the late eighties. 
Karajan is good if not great with a wonderful adagietto. 
I know that I may take some heat for this but Barbirolli kind of leaves me cold. I find him to be too slow and subdued. It is an architectural reading in my mind. I can understand the attraction but I need more passion and urgency in this symphony.

My favorites are Solti/CSO, Bernstein/VPO on video, Maazel and Chailly. Saraste is a go to if I want to hear a lighter but still exciting approach. I'd like to hear the Honeck/Pittsburgh recording but those Exton's are quite expensive! His 3rd is marvelous. One of the best I have heard. There are many I have not heard, so my assessments are limited in that respect.


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## SiegendesLicht

Haydn67 said:


> Tennstedt/London Philharmonic
> Kubelik/Bavarian Radio Orchestra


Since these are the only two I own, they win every time


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## Brahmsian Colors

SiegendesLicht said:


> Since these are the only two I own, they win every time


After having bettered, I feel, Bernstein/N.Y. Phil, Karajan/Berlin Phil., Barbirolli/New Philharmonia, Solti/Chicago Sym. and Levine/Philadelphia Orch., they're the only ones I still own too. :cheers:


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## Oldhoosierdude

Fritz Kobus said:


> This one is very good:


This is the one I have. Once I heard it I didn't need any other. Got the audiophile download for whatever that means. I do have Abravenel from a box download which isn't bad perhaps a bit underpowered.


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## Joe B




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## Larkenfield

John Barbirolli with the New Philharmonia Orchestra has the most beautiful, warm and tender Adagietto I've heard so far-just perfect-and so wonderfully serene. In fact, I like his entire performance.






My apologies to those who like von Karajan's recording... I wouldn't exactly say I didn't care for his infuriating distortion of Mahler's intentions, but I unceremoniously threw the disc out the window to the birds, along with Hvk's bombastic distortion of Mahler's 6th, and suddenly they stopped singing and flew away. He did better with the 9th.


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## KJ von NNJ

Joe B., Haitink is another pioneer of Mahler's symphonies. In the movie "Mahler" directed by Ken Russell and starring Robert Powell (of Jesus of Nazareth fame) as Mahler, Haitink's recordings were used for the film. It worked for me. I love the movie! It's quirky, yes. Also more than a bit convoluted, but all in all it shows Russell's sincere love for the man and the music. 
I regret to say that I don't own much of Bernard Haitink's Mahler, apart from his masterful readings of the 9th and Das Lied von der Erde. I'm always in awe of these works whenever a performance wins me over. I think that it was Mahler's intention for this to be so. As a conductor he once said something to the effect that 'my music will be judged by it's interpreters.' He seemed to have faith in the idea that they would understand his music and raise it to the ranks of excellence. If this is so, he was 100% right.


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## KJ von NNJ

I agree that Barbirolli's adagietto is marvelous. I find Karajan's 6th to be a bit over-rated although the slow movement is only matched by his counterpart Leonard Bernstein in his VPO DG reading. Karajan did have a way with slow movements of great symphonies. I don't think it can even be argued. The guy KNEW how to be.........ethereal. More than most I have heard. That said, he had a pretty good orchestra too.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Pugg said:


> I still like the Karajan also very much, I know controversial but hey, it's my time.


I didn't know it was controversial. I have the famous 4th movement as part of a big box adagio download. I like it, not as much as some others but it's good.


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## Becca

I really dislike the tendency of modern conductors to slow down the adagietto. Whereas Bruno Walter was under 8 mins (which IIRC, was the suggestion on the score) and Barbirolli at around 9.40, more recent conductors have gotten into the 10 minute range (Kubelik, Boulez), then 11+ minutes (e.g. Tennstedt, Bernstein, HvK) and a recent Vanska was over 12 minutes. The extreme seems to be Haitink/BPO at over 13 minutes!!


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## Becca

...Which reminds me after listening to a fascinating, live Mahler 2nd yesterday (Daniel Harding and the Orchestre de Paris), a similar slow down has occurred with the Resurrection. It is intriguing when the fastest are Walter & Klemperer who assisted Mahler, and more recent conductors average about 10 minutes or more slower, with about half of that in the 1st movement.


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## Larkenfield

That's one of the things I like about the Barbirolli Adagietto. It's wonderfully tender & serene but not overly long. "Adagietto means fairly slow, usually between Largo and Andante, but slightly faster than Adagio." So to super-stretch it out may not be what Mahler had in mind. I also find it of interest that the length of time of Barbirolli's overall performance is 13 minutes longer (for a total time of 1 hour and 14 minutes) than Walter's with the NYP! Funny about the illusion of time. If there's something happening with the conductor & orchestra, the complete length of time doesn't seem to matter.


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## Larkenfield

Becca said:


> ...Which reminds me after listening to a fascinating, live Mahler 2nd yesterday (Daniel Harding and the Orchestre de Paris), a similar slow down has occurred with the Resurrection. It is intriguing when the fastest are Walter & Klemperer who assisted Mahler, and more recent conductors average about 10 minutes or more slower, with about half of that in the 1st movement.


Speaking of Klemperer, I've never heard anyone surpass what he did with the Mahler 2nd and the Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks. It's superb and IMO totally in a class by itself. I've also never had the desire to supercede it and search for a better performance. He captured lightening in a bottle!


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## Becca

Larkenfield said:


> Speaking of Klemperer, I've never heard anyone surpass what he did with the Mahler 2nd and the Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks. It's superb and IMO totally in a class by itself. I've also never had the desire to supercede it and search for a better performance. He captured lightening in a bottle!


I am aware of recordings of the M2 with the Concertgebouw and Kathleen Ferrier, also one done in Sidney, Australia, but not one with the BRSO ... what label is it on?

Addendum: I just found it ... somehow I never noticed it before.


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## KJ von NNJ

I listened to Karajan's 5th today. Magnificently brought off climax at the end of the 2nd movement. Atmospheric Scherzo, very well played. The Adagietto is just short of 12 minutes. Really slow, but the BPO strings are ravishing. A very good final movement. It builds inexorably. All in all, most of the first two movements I found to be good but not great. The rest of the symphony is very well done. It was K's first recording of a Mahler work. He was 65 years old. Not bad. I would not put it in the class of his 9th but there are some great moments in this recording of the 5th. 

I hate to be critical of Sir John Barbirolli. I love his BPO 9th. I have not heard his 6th though it is a favorite among several classical music writers. His Mahler 5th is as well a favorite among listeners and writers. My views are strictly what I look for in a particular work. I'm actually a Barbirolli fan. His Elgar and Vaughan Williams are often the very best I have heard. I'm also experiencing his Sibelius for the first time, which I find to be very good.
I like to voice my opinion freely but I don't like ripping on anyone in particular. There are plenty of recordings by the 'greatest' conductors that I find to be less than satisfying. There are some highly regarded recordings that I find less than great.


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## Larkenfield

It’s interesting about Barbirolli. His performance of the 5th is so right to me, but his performance of the 9th is far too dark, tragic and depressing—far more tragic than what I feel Mahler had in mind, almost as if Barbirolli heard defeat in that symphony. I never wanted to hear his performance again, and even now the thought of it is oppressive and depressing. I feel that even von Karajan was more hopeful and did a better job though he’s not my first choice in anything of Mahler. 

What I’m glad to grant von Karajan is that his understanding of Mahler seemed to dramatically change between his performances of the 5th and 6th, then later the 9th. His 9th shows tremendous growth. He at least found a way into the 9th even though I feel that he totally misunderstood the 5th and 6th and filled them with too much bombast and obscenely loud climaxes. That kind of change can only come from within and I commend him for it.

That he was able to perform Mahler at all is something of a miracle, because he seemed to have come late to it and performance of the composer were banned during the Nazi era in Europe where the conductor obviously couldn’t have performed the music—that is if he ever wanted to at the time. It’s hard to imagine him wanting to considering the prejudice against and condemnation of Mahler. So he probably had to rethink his views of the composer after the war from the ground up, including as a human being, on a strictly musical basis rather than on the fact that Mahler was a Jew.

There are often tremendous stories behind the music and why some understanding of history can be illuminating. I am surmising that von Karajan went through this kind of a change because I’ve never seen it discussed by anyone. I’m basing my reactions on what I’ve heard in his performances, and I feel that his performance of the 9th shows that he was a changed person—that the Nazis were wrong about Mahler.

I like Barbirolli’s performance of the 6th very much and he plays the order of the middle two movements in the order that Mahler specified to his publisher in his revised edition, and played the symphony that way publicly while he was alive.


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## Becca

Regarding HvK and Mahler ... while I can't speak to that directly, I can note that the turning point of the Berlin Philharmonic and Mahler was due in no small part to Barbirolli. His performances of the 9th with them in 1963 was, I believe, the first time that they had done it since long before WW2. The story is that after the performances, the orchestra specifically asked that they record it with him which required some contractual negotiations between EMI and DGG. Subsequently he performed a number of the other symphonies, some of which are currently available on disc. I have to wonder if Karajan, who was no slouch about taking advantage of situations, started to become a Mahler 'convert' at that time. Perhaps someone with access to the BPO archives could determine when he started conducting Mahler.


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## Becca

Larkenfield said:


> It's interesting about Barbirolli. His performance of the 5th is so right to me, but his performance of the 9th is far too dark, tragic and depressing-far more tragic than what I feel Mahler had in mind, almost as if Barbirolli heard defeat in that symphony. I never wanted to hear his performance again, and even now the thought of it is oppressive and depressing. I


In Tony Duggan's survey of the Mahler 9th, he states _"At the sessions Barbirolli insisted on recording the last movement first so "they would know what they were aiming at ." It was also recorded at night because "such music should not be played in the daylight"."_

Regarding Barbirolli's 6th, I read somewhere that in the first release, EMI switched the order of the middle movements which infuriated Barbirolli. Certainly his Proms performance done just prior to the studio recording has Andante/Scherzo.


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## Pugg

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I didn't know it was controversial. I have the famous 4th movement as part of a big box adagio download. I like it, not as much as some others but it's good.


Just follow the Mahler threads on this site, most of the tine poison for that recording.


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## Brahmsianhorn

My favorite 5ths are Barbirolli, Shipway, and a hair-raising live Horenstein available from Pristine Classical, though in pretty dreadful sound. If you like a shorter Adagietto, try Schwarz. Beautiful sound and impassioned performance.

Have you heard this live 1960 Barbirolli 9th? To me it is the most intense of his recordings and my favorite by anyone. The sound quality is pretty good though obviously no match for the EMI studio.


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## KJ von NNJ

I think it was Bernstein's BPO recording of the 9th (his only performance with the BPO) in the late 70's that gave Karajan the desire to perform and record the 9th himself. The orchestra was well rehearsed and the symphony was fresh in their minds. I tend to think that Karajan relished the challenge to match or surpass Bernstein's excellent live recording with the BPO. In that, Karajan had the luxury of not having to over-rehearse his orchestra in order to perform the symphony. Karajan was ready for the 9th anyway, after recording the 4th,5th,6th and Kindertotenlieder in the 1970's. There was plenty of competition going on between the two maestro's throughout their careers. They could not resist stealing each others thunder.
Karajan was considering recording the 1st symphony after hearing a Tennstedt performance of it. It was not to be though.


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## 13hm13

Over in the Mahler 9 thread, someone noted Haitink/RCO "Christmas concerts". They were televised on Eurovision, I believe. And Philips released a (now hard-to-find) box set.
ClassicsToday gave the set a good review: 
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-4201/

Oh YT, someone did post the full video of M5, Christmas 1986:





I like it. Maybe among my top 3 Mahler 5's, even.

As I noted in the M9 thread, Mahler symps are tough to capture on recording. E.g., the microphones can only pick up so much (the mikes have it much easier with chamber and sonatas !!). For Mahler, I think the BBC Proms and Lucerne mike setups seem to work best. There may be others which I yet to sample.


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## Pugg

> I believe. And Philips released a (now hard-to-find) box set.
> ClassicsToday gave the set a good review:
> https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-4201/


Now on Decca if it makes the search easier.


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## Josquin13

Four conductors that I find especially interesting in Mahler's 5th are Günther Herbig with the Berlin Symphony Orchestra (who gets the sometimes terrifying, nervous, angst-ridden energy of this symphony better than most, & is especially fine in the Adagio movement), Leif Segerstam with the Danish National Radio Symphony Orchestra, Sir John Barbirolli, and Klaus Tennstedt--especially live. I've also liked Jascha Horenstein, & Eliahu Inbal in this work.


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## 13hm13

Being able to compare/contrast several versions quickly (as in various YouTube uploads) reinforces my earlier comments about recording techniques. Mahler had a tendency play certain instruments in high _relief_. Or there may be a particular (singles out) instrument playing a different chord. 
Certain Decca recordings from the 70s used all sorts of tricks -- incl. spot miking or even using reinforcement loudspeakers (think rock concert!) - -to pick up as much as possible. 
All that said, in the various Mahler recordings of the_ same_ movement, I hear different things.

Come to think of it, even in the ideal_ live _format, I think only the conductor (or the best seats in the house) may be the ideal perspective.
I wonder how many composers are surprised, disgusted or impressed at how their comp. ultimately plays out at symphony hall?


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## Mal

Rachovsky said:


> I was curious of what you all thought the best recording of Symphony No. 5 was by Mahler. I looked in my little Classical Music book and it gave me Leonard Bernstein's live recording with Vienna Philharmonic and John Barbirolli. I personally like Michael Tilson Thomas' interpretations of Mahler and from the samples on iTunes, it sounds exceptional. What is everyone's suggestions as to which recording I should buy?


Is your little book "The Rough Guide to Classical Music"? If so, I think that's a good guide to Mahler, for my ears, at least. Their top recommendation (Bernstein) is my favourite, after listening to a few on Spotify. I'll be buying it on CD as soon as my self imposed buying restriction ends  I found Tennstedt took too much time to warm up, plus smudges and audience noise put me off. Barbirolli I found marred by rhythmic unsteadiness, lumpy phrasing, inferior orchestral playing, lack of direction, lack of pianissimo, and moaning from the conductor (!) Karajan's outing, his first attempt at Mahler, was far too superficial and uninteresting. I haven't listened to Tilson Thomas. I stopped at Bernstein as it had a "That's the one!" impact, and that doesn't happen often, with me, with Mahler. (Horenstein #3, Szell #4, also recommended by rough guide, also had the same impact... that's a good guide!)


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## Mal

Pugg said:


> Just follow the Mahler threads on this site, most of the tine poison for that [Karajan's] recording.


I bought the CD for £1 second hand recently - the worst £1 I ever spent. OK the adagio is quite prettily done but the whole package is, indeed, poison. In Duggan's extensive online review he simply refuses to mention it, apart from saying that he refuses to mention it 

http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/Mahler5.htm


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## Mal

bongos said:


> I listened to the Mahler 5 by Antoni Wit /National Symphony orchestra of Polish Radio and Television but Im afraid the NAXOS sound is poor , no detail , sounds jumbled all over the stage just like the Naxos Bruckner series


Time for an ear or equipment check mate  That Naxos Bruckner series sounds great!


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## 13hm13

I recently (finally) acquired the 1990 Solti/CSO live Vienna performance ...









I was looking forward to it as I found the classic (and deservedly high rated 1970 Solti/CSO) album to be very good.

But, I find this 20-year-later performance unexciting. Also, the recording gets rather congested. (The 1970 recording was problematic, too, as being shouty and "bright").

My reference M5 remains Mehta/Los Angeles/1976, as noted in a prev. post in this thread. That _recording_ has some problems, but the performance is my fave of all the M5's I've thus heard.


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## Larkenfield

Mal said:


> I bought the CD for £1 second hand recently - the worst £1 I ever spent. OK the adagio is quite prettily done but the whole package is, indeed, poison. In Duggan's extensive online review he simply refuses to mention it, apart from saying that he refuses to mention it
> 
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/Mahler5.htm


I have to agree with Mal and Duggan, not only with regard to the 5th but to the 6th. I actually had a violently negative reaction against them and felt that I had heard the absolute nadir of distorted Mahler performances with their obscenely loud climaxes and what sounded to me like a complete and total misunderstanding of both works. Nevertheless, something must have happened to Karajan between those recordings and the one he did of the 9th, because that one was at least acceptable and showed a greater respect and sensitivity for the composer in following the markings of the score and in the general spirit of the work. He had somehow redeemed himself and I respected him for that.

I learned a great lesson about famous conductors: that sometimes they can be monumentally wrong as well as right. I've enjoyed a number of K's Sibelius performances, especially the one he did of the 7th with the BPO. I consider that a virtually perfect and magical performance despite the usually noticeable smoothing of the overall texture that he was known to prefer. But with Mahler, I believe he recorded the 5th and 6th when he was just not ready culturally or psychologically to play a Jewish composer who had been banned from being performed while Karajan was conducting in Germany. He came very late to the composer in his career and had to play catch-up, perhaps because Mahler recordings were 'hot' and it would have been a conspicuous absence if he hadn't made an effort to record him. It might have also been misconstrued that he didn't perform Mahler because he was a Jewish composer. So I imagine that he went through some soul searching in order to conduct him.


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## Triplets

Manfred Honeck was guesting in Chicago with this piece a few weeks ago. I was emotionally drained at the end, a very memorable concert


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## Josquin13

13m13 writes, "Certain Decca recordings from the 70s used all sorts of tricks -- incl. spot miking or even using reinforcement loudspeakers (think rock concert!) - -to pick up as much as possible. 
All that said, in the various Mahler recordings of the same movement, I hear different things.

Come to think of it, even in the ideal live format, I think only the conductor (or the best seats in the house) may be the ideal perspective."

I consider Mahler the most difficult composer to record well. His orchestration is so rich & nuanced that it's almost impossible to capture the whole score in the kind of detail that one hears in a concert hall. However, the best Mahler recordings I've heard to date have come from the Exton label in Japan, and I'm thinking particularly of the Czech Philharmonic cycle conducted by Zdenek Macal. I can't find Macal's 5th on You Tube, but here's a brief sample of his 9th, so that people can hear how incredibly detailed the Exton hybrid SACD recording is (it even comes across on You Tube):






Other conductors that have recorded Mahler on Exton include Vaclav Neumann, Eliahu Inbal, Manfred Honeck, and Sakari Oramo.

Here too is the 4th movement of Neumann's 9th, though I don't think it's quite as amazingly detailed as Macal's 9th, even if it may be a better performance:






and here are some Amazon listening clips to Macal's 5th on Exton:

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Zdene...sr=1-2-catcorr&keywords=Mahler+5+zdenek+macal

Of course I'm not claiming these are the best Mahler performances out there, but I do find it a great pleasure to hear the entirety of Mahler's score in such astonishing, near 'concert hall' like detail. (The negative is that it can take some looking in order to find these Exton recordings at a reasonable price, as they can get very pricey.)

Another fine recent Mahler 5th that I forgot to mention in my previous post is the Pentatone hybrid SACD recording from conductor Harmut Haenchen and the Netherlands Phiharmonic Orchestra:

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=Mahler+5+harmut+pentatone


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## Oldhoosierdude

Oldhoosierdude said:


> This is the one I have. Once I heard it I didn't need any other. Got the audiophile download for whatever that means. I do have Abravenel from a box download which isn't bad perhaps a bit underpowered.


I will contradict myself. I heard this recording and quite liked it also.


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## Heck148

13hm13 said:


> I recently (finally) acquired the 1990 Solti/CSO live Vienna performance ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was looking forward to it as I found the classic (and deservedly high rated 1970 Solti/CSO) album to be very good..


Both Solti M5s are outstanding....11/90 recording is "live" from Musikverein in Vienna, the earlier 3/70 recording is concurrent with Solti/CSO's epic Carnegie Hall performance from the same time...I heard the live performances in Carnegie, and it still ranks as the greatest concert I've ever heard...in truth, no recording could really do justice to it, esp in the closing pages - the sound level - volume and intensity - was unbelievable, and no recording system could take it all in...the 3/70 recording is stellar, only marred by knob-twiddling at the very end - but as I said - no recording system was going to take in all of that amazing sound...
Yes, London's sound is pretty much "in your face" - but so was the live performance...lots of detail, plenty of wallop...
the later recording is indeed excellent, in some ways better than the earlier one, and the closing pages better recorded without the control room tampering....
perhaps best of all, tho, is the great Abbado/CSO recording on DG [2/80]- again fabulous playing and wonderful sound reproduction - in each of these recordings - 2 Solti, Abbado - the listener is treated to stellar orchestral solo work - Trumpet [Herseth] and Horn [Clevenger] - amazing, state of the art playing....
Chicago, for me, really "owns" this piece, nobody else plays it with the panache, confidence and overwhelming power that the CSO brings to it...


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## 13hm13

With respect to Solti/CSO Mahler 5's ... a few years ago, someone on YouTube posted a 1986 Tokyo live/televised performance. I think someone recorded it to VHS; the video was not great and sound was low-fi mono. Nevertheless, this was one of the best M5's I've heard. 
Alas, that video seems to have disappeared from You Tube 

A poorer-quality video of that 1986 Tokyo concert was up'd and is here:


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## 13hm13

*Von Dohnányi w/Cleveland Orchestra, a 1988 recording*










I just heard the above album -- Christoph Von Dohnányi w/Cleveland Orchestra, a 1988 recording -- and was impressed.

The pacing -- while not as quick and exciting as Mehta/LApHil/1976 -- is even and orderly. The instruments seem to keep good timing with each other ( a tall order, given the large orchestra and scope of orchestration).

I'm also very impressed with the smooth, balanced recording quality: I hear a lot of individual instruments that are often "hidden" in other M5 recordings.

Someone did upload it to YouTube. Here's Part 1:


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## ramiot

I have many different versions of the Mahler 5th, ( Kubelic, Abbado, Solti, Bernstein, Gergiev, Honneck, Barbirolli and Tennstedt) I prefer the Tennstedt mostly beacause of the 4th movement Adagietto, which is excellent.


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## flamencosketches

I just ordered the controversial Karajan Mahler 5th for $3 (shipping included, I couldn't pass it up!) after sampling bits and pieces of it and really enjoying what I heard. I understand his Mahler is widely hated by some and adored by others. I'm still looking for the right Mahler 5th for me. I think it's a great symphony, so much potential, but I have never been fully convinced by any one recording. For example, the Boulez/Vienna, I think, is phenomenal in the first few movements, but loses steam during the Scherzo, while the Bernstein/NYPO features a phenomenal Adagietto (yes, I know this is controversial as well, but I think it's the best Adagietto I've heard) but is less convincing with the two outer movements. So I'm going to give Karajan a shot, and if I really hate it, I could always use a new frisbee.










Any fans here? I guess I'd also be open to more specific opinions from those who find it objectionable!

Incidentally, I also just bought a recording of the 6th symphony also from the Berlin Philharmonic, under a different conductor (& in a totally different era): Claudio Abbado.










I'm Mahler-crazy lately, I guess... it's more so that I am really dead set on trying to understand the middle period symphonies, 5, 6, and 7 which I find the most perplexing, along with the 8th which I just do not get.


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## MrMeatScience

Have you heard Gielen's recording of the Fifth? I think it's exceptional. His fourth movement would be a nice counterweight to Bernstein's -- hard to imagine two more different interpretations!


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## DavidA

flamencosketches said:


> I just ordered the *controversial* Karajan Mahler 5th for $3 (shipping included, I couldn't pass it up!) after sampling bits and pieces of it and really enjoying what I heard. I understand his Mahler is widely hated by some and adored by others. .


I've enjoyed this performance for a long time and am still puzzled what people find controversial about it. The fact that it is so well played?


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## Merl

DavidA said:


> I've enjoyed this performance for a long time and am still puzzled what people find controversial about it. The fact that it is so well played?


I like it and I like his 6th too. I think Karajan's Mahler is much maligned. Controversial it you like what you like.


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## CnC Bartok

MrMeatScience said:


> Have you heard Gielen's recording of the Fifth? I think it's exceptional. His fourth movement would be a nice counterweight to Bernstein's -- hard to imagine two more different interpretations!


Indeed. It's started giving Barbirolli a challenge as far as I am concerned.....


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## flamencosketches

DavidA said:


> I've enjoyed this performance for a long time and am still puzzled what people find controversial about it. The fact that it is so well played?


I don't know either. People say it's "not Mahler", or that he plays it more in line with the late 19th century Romantic tradition of Bruckner, Brahms etc rather than Mahler's individual style which was closer to the sounds of Modernism to come. I have heard people disparage the 5th in particular because he uses big climaxes and brass-heavy fortissimos à la Bruckner, which I can hear. I do not see this as a bad thing; it's not the only way to do it, but the fact is that Mahler did take a lot of influence from Bruckner and there is no harm in a conductor emphasizing that influence. In the end, to my ears, it still sounds like pure Mahler. But I still have yet to hear his recording in full; maybe it's as bad as they say, who knows. I'm not much of a Karajan fan generally speaking but I think he is damn near peerless in certain repertoire. Definitely a unique voice.


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## Larkenfield

I love this symphony and considerate it just as much Mahler as anything else he wrote. It’s one of his most often performed and accepted symphonies. But how idiomatic it sounds I think very much depends on the conductor and someone like Bruno Walter or Barbirolli or Kubelick knows how to bring out its best. A certain German conductor I think didn’t sufficiently understand it and sometimes played it too forcefully or insensitively, or was somehow way off base, where it didn’t belong and made a very unidiomatic recording that didn’t reflect the intentions of the composer, at least compared to every other recording that I’ve heard and there have been many recordings that have been made of it... IMO, this is one of his most popular and accessible of his symphonies, though I feel that the first movement has a sense of tragedy about it with its funeral march. Sometimes it’s hard to separate the wheat from the chaff and some mistake a mischaracterized performance as being the fault of the composer, and yet this symphony has been recorded successfully many times to give it every possible chance of being understood... Sometimes I believe it’s played too forcefully and symphonically and it destroys its subtleties and inner qualities. It’s played like Mahler was an extrovert instead of an introvert which I believe is closer to the truth. One has to play it like Mahler and not some other composer, which I believe sometimes happens. I believe that to best appreciate it one should hear those who are known for creating the sense that they understand his inner life and spirit and there’s a certain warmth rather than volume and power just because the orchestra is capable of it. Then I believe the field is wide open and one can hear other interpretations and judge for oneself. But I believe that with this symphony it’s possible to get off on the wrong foot and the listener doesn’t understand it because the conductor may not have understood it and one can get a distorted picture... For me, Mahler is like a lifelong project and the more interpretations I hear, the more the spirit and soul of the composer is revealed, and one can truly understand who has the greatest insight into him. For me, the word idiomatic means that the performance reminds the listener of no one else other than the composer! That’s what I like about Bruno Walter’s and Barbirolli’s performances. But I believe that to notice this requires hearing a number of interpretations and to enjoy the journey.


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## flamencosketches

Larkenfield said:


> I love this symphony and considerate it just as much Mahler as anything else he wrote. It's one of his most often performed and accepted symphonies. But how idiomatic it sounds I think very much depends on the conductor and someone like Bruno Walter or Barbirolli or Kubelick knows how to bring out its best. A certain German conductor I think didn't sufficiently understand it and sometimes played it too forcefully or insensitively, or was somehow way off base, where it didn't belong and made a very unidiomatic recording that didn't reflect the intentions of the composer, at least compared to every other recording that I've heard and there have been many recordings that have been made of it... IMO, this is one of his most popular and accessible of his symphonies! Sometimes it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff and some mistake a mischaracterized performance as being the fault of the composer, and yet this symphony has been recorded successfully many times to give it every possible chance of being understood... As far as his symphonies go, I believe this is one of the easier ones to understand and is authentic Mahler to the core. Sometimes I believe it's played too forcefully and symphonically and it destroys its subtleties and inner qualities. It's played like Mahler was an extrovert instead of an introvert which I believe is closer to the truth. One has to play it like Mahler and not some other composer, which I believe sometimes happens. I believe that to best appreciate it one should hear those who are known for creating the sense that they understand his inner life and spirit and there's a certain warmth rather than volume and power just because the orchestra is capable of it. Then I believe the field is wide open and one can hear other interpretations and judge for oneself. But I believe that with this symphony it's possible to get off on the wrong foot and the listener doesn't understand it because the conductor may not have understood it and one can get a distorted picture... For me, Mahler is like a lifelong project and the more interpretations I hear, the more the spirit and soul of the composer is revealed, and one can truly understand who has the greatest insight into him. For me, the word idiomatic means that the performance reminds the listener of no one else other than the composer! That's what I like about Bruno Walter's and Barbirolli's performances. But I believe that to notice this requires hearing a number of interpretations and to enjoy the journey.


I think I might check out the Barbirolli recording too. I have been exploring that conductor's very famed interpretations of Mahler, bit by bit. I know some say he is THE Mahler conductor par excellence.

I think extroverted is a great way to put it, re: Karajan and his Mahler 5th, but it is not a deal breaker to me. Something tells me that Mahler actually wouldn't have hated what Karajan did to his symphony. (His infamous 6th may be a different story). Still, I respect your opinion and will take all that into account when listening to and evaluating this recording.

Again, I think I need to hear the Barbirolli too. To veer off topic for a moment, can anyone tell me definitively what are the Mahler symphonies that Sir John conducted? I know he's conducted the 3rd, 5th, 6th, 9th, and most of the Lieder. It looks like he may have also conducted the 7th...? It seems he is more at home with the mid-to-late symphonies than the Wunderhorn period, though I hear his 3rd with the Hallé Orchestra is also supposed to be phenomenal (for BBC).


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## CnC Bartok

^^^ Some more releases for interest...









Two No.1 recordings here btw


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## flamencosketches

CnC Bartok said:


> ^^^ Some more releases for interest...
> 
> View attachment 125532
> 
> 
> Two No.1 recordings here btw


What's with the ugly album artwork? What kind of label is Memories Reverence, I'm guessing audiophile style...? Anyway, I wasn't aware of his recordings of the 1st and 2nd, good to know.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Best Barbirolli Mahler recordings IMO are the studio 1st, 5th, and 6th, the live 1960 Italian 9th, live 1970 Stuttgart 2nd, and live 4th with Heather Harper.


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> What's with the ugly album artwork? What kind of label is Memories Reverence, I'm guessing audiophile style...?


I can't seem to find a website but it's an Italian re-issue label. I have no idea if they are legit or just putting stuff on the market with no connection to the owners of the source material?


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## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> I've enjoyed this performance for a long time and am still puzzled what people find controversial about it. The fact that it is so well played?


Karajan takes a piece that is full of drama and pathos - listen to Barbirolli for example - and makes it sound superficially about beautiful sounds and nothing else.


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## flamencosketches

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Karajan takes a piece that is full of drama and pathos - listen to Barbirolli for example - and makes it sound superficially about beautiful sounds and nothing else.


I don't hear that at all! I hear intense drama in Karajan's reading, if slightly more on the detached side, pathos-wise.


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## Brahmsianhorn

flamencosketches said:


> I don't hear that at all! I hear intense drama in Karajan's reading, if slightly more on the detached side, pathos-wise.


Perhaps I shouldn't say just beautiful sounds, because certainly there is plenty of bombast as well, but my main impression of the Karajan is that he understands the drama and pathos of this symphony on a superficial level. I don't hear real understanding, intelligence or sensitivity, but more of a superficial melodrama.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> I can't seem to find a website but it's an Italian re-issue label. I have no idea if they are legit or just putting stuff on the market with no connection to the owners of the source material?


The Memories label is interesting. Yes, they are Italian and often are cited as being 'unofficial but most of their CDs are distributed in the UK by independent record distributors and similarly through Japanese independents (eg New Muse} . Some are also available via Amazon, again through Japanese distributors and must be legit to gain a ASIN number (Amazon won't assign these to non-legit items AFAIK). Recording-wise they are often broadcast recordings but I have no idea where they source them. What I will say is they've got some great stuff and other recordings that are woeful. The Tennstedt Beethoven Symphonies set I reviewed recently is a case in fact. All are from broadcast tapes and vary wildly in quality from almost unlistenable (Symphony 2) to very good analogue (Symphony 9). Whether they have been 'digitally remastered' who knows but the one constant is that they are all correctly attributed and are by the artists involved. More info on Memories is sketchy to say the least and the CDs sell out quickly (small runs) and often don't reappear until they hit the secondhand market and then go for silly money. As far as the covers are concerned I agree that they are generally bloody awful but collectors don't care. If anyone else has any more info on the label I'd be interested.


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## Heck148

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Perhaps I shouldn't say just beautiful sounds, because certainly there is plenty of bombast as well, but my main impression of the Karajan is that he understands the drama and pathos of this symphony on a superficial level. I don't hear real understanding, intelligence or sensitivity, but more of a superficial melodrama.


I liked your description of Karajan's output as "serviceable" performances in excellent recorded sound....some are less "serviceable" than others....


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## geralmar

If biography informs performance (admittedly a dubious proposition) then the 1958 recording with Rudolf Schwarz conducting the so-so London Symphony is worth a listen. Schwarz was an Austrian born Jew and survivor of Belsen and Auschwitz. (At one point Furtwangler's wife interceded to save his life.) His recording of the Mahler 5 was only the third commercial recording of the work and the first in stereo. Reviews are mixed but on balance this seems to be an undervalued recording of the work.

The fifth is my least favorite Mahler symphony and I am not qualified to comment on the performance anyway.


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## Brahmsianhorn

geralmar said:


> If biography informs performance (admittedly a dubious proposition) then the 1958 recording with Rudolf Schwarz conducting the so-so London Symphony is worth a listen. Schwarz was an Austrian born Jew and survivor of Belsen and Auschwitz. (At one point Furtwangler's wife interceded to save his life.) His recording of the Mahler 5 was only the third commercial recording of the work and the first in stereo. Reviews are mixed but on balance this seems to be an undervalued recording of the work.
> 
> The fifth is my least favorite Mahler symphony and I am not qualified to comment on the performance anyway.


That's a great one, one of my favorites alongside Barbirolli and Shipway. Only controversial point is a somewhat fast Adagietto.


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## Heck148

the LSO in the late 50s was a pretty rough-edged group....there were some very terrific musicians [dePeyer, Waterhouse, Tuckwell, Wick, etc]...but the ensemble was pretty raw...Goosens' '58 recording of Antheil Sym#4 is a good example...some ballsy playing, for sure, but rather rough.
It took Pierre Monteux to whip the LSO into topshape when he took over in the late 50s....This was the great LSO of the 60s onward featured in great recordings by Monteux, Kertesz, Previn, Solti, Abbado, Dorati ....


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## Guest

never mind........


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## Merl

geralmar said:


> If biography informs performance (admittedly a dubious proposition) then the 1958 recording with Rudolf Schwarz conducting the so-so London Symphony is worth a listen. Schwarz was an Austrian born Jew and survivor of Belsen and Auschwitz. (At one point Furtwangler's wife interceded to save his life.) His recording of the Mahler 5 was only the third commercial recording of the work and the first in stereo. Reviews are mixed but on balance this seems to be an undervalued recording of the work.
> 
> The fifth is my least favorite Mahler symphony and I am not qualified to comment on the performance anyway.


I took a while to warm to Shipway's Mahler 5 but it's grown on me over the years (even if I still prefer many others) because Shipway shapes the whole symphony so well and the orchestra plays with real conviction. I dont play it that often but when i do I always enjoy it. Shipway was certainly a very interesting and controversial character. He openly regarded orchestras as "The opponent" back in the 70s, once told a tv interviewer that "I cannot have friends in the orchestra," and lauded the fact that be studied under Barbirolli and Karajan over his players in rehearsals earning him the nickname 'Frank Von Shitway'. However he raised the standards of all orchestras he worked for even if he was hugely dictatorial, highly volatile (he reprimanded audience members who coughed too much and often had fiery, heated exchanges with players which ended with him storming out mid-rehearsal to calm down). This no-nonsense, demanding approach to his players possibly stunted his career as he was generally regarded as a very good conductor with a bad attitude. The public liked him a lot and he was a popular live attraction when guesting with other orchestras. As he aged he allegedly calmed considerably, and was adored by his players in Sao Paolo at the end of his life.


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Karajan takes a piece that is full of drama and pathos - listen to Barbirolli for example - and makes it sound superficially about beautiful sounds and nothing else.


You must be listening to a different recording to what I have then


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## Bwv 1080

Here is a Klemzer version of the Trauermarsch


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## flamencosketches

Is Mahler's 5th one of his hardest symphonies for conductors to get right? Or is it one of the easiest? 

I think there are a few different ways to bring it home. One is by emphasizing the drama and tragedy of it all, which Barbirolli and Bernstein seem to do. Another is by bringing out the counterpoint and maintaining a fluid dramatic arc through the music, like Boulez and perhaps Gielen. I'm not sure which one works better. There are a few more recordings I'd like to hear: Tennstedt/LPO live (somehow I have a feeling he would be very effective with this symphony), Rattle/BPO (been rather enjoying Sir Simon's Mahler lately), and reading through this thread has piqued my interest about the Solti. I haven't made up my mind yet about Solti's Mahler, though I like his LSO 2nd. 

Anyone listening to Mahler 5 lately? I just heard it after over 6 months of not having listened to it.


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## Becca

I have heard the 5th done in concert by Solti/CSO, Boulez/LAPO and at least one more that escapes me at the moment. I have also owned recorded versions by Barbiirolli, Solti, Tennstedt and Rattle/BPO. Barbirolli was long my favourite with Rattle 2nd and then Tennstedt, but a couple of years ago I got the Barshai/Junge Deutsche Philharmonie which quickly went to the top of the list.

A couple of comments...
- I think that it was Rattle who said that the 5th was the hardest to come to grips with.
- Anyone who stretches the Adagietto over 10 minutes (Tennstedt = almost 12) damages the entire balance and loses points. (Barshai: 8.18 mins)
- Don't tell Heck who lives and breathes anything to do with the CSO, Reiner & Solti, but I ditched my Solti recording and have avoided his Mahler, over bright and driven.


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## Knorf

I listened to it a couple times recently, revisiting Bernstein with Vienna on CD, a recording I enjoy very much.


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## perdido34

The best performance I've heard in concert was Robert Spano with the Cleveland Institute of Music student orchestra about two years ago. They outdid themselves.

Although the 5th is one of my favorite Mahler symphonies, I've managed to hear it only that one time in concert.


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## Knorf

Becca, I agree with you about Solti's Mahler recordings, but I've kept his No. 1, which I still really enjoy, and No. 8 which is think is interpretively misconceived, but inarguably spectacular.


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## Becca

^^ His LSO 1st is the only one that I have, a CD copy made from a vinyl disc, but it rarely gets played.


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## Allegro Con Brio

It really is the hardest one to get right for me. For my first year and a half as a Mahlerian I didn't like it very much, finding the funeral music tedious and indulgent, the scherzo and Adagietto lovely, but the finale incredibly weak. The finale is still my least favorite movement - I get what it's trying to do, wrapping up everything that came before with a gradual ascent towards the light, but it seems to lack the inspiration of Mahler at his greatest. Then I heard Barshai. Holy cow. Tony Duggan was spot on with this one. You'd never believe it was a youth orchestra, but part of me actually thinks that's part of what it makes it so good - they're putting it all out there, not afraid to be young and brash, not letting stodgy professionalism get in their way. Barshai makes sense of the first two movements by not letting the music drag, and the scherzo really dances despite the fact that it's the slowest on record. He hasn't quite sold me on the finale yet, but he definitely showed me the merits of a breezier Adagietto. Flamenco, you need to add it to your listening list ASAP - it's on YouTube:






Otherwise I really like what Kubelik did with it (I have not heard the live one on Audite, which some say is better). There's always a sort of earthy, rustic flavor to his Mahler that I really appreciate; and he really makes sense of the structures. Bernstein/VPO is also a great one - flamenco mentions the "fluid arc" that ties the symphony together, and this is what I hear in this performance. Let's see, who else have I heard on this? Solti - ah, nope. Certainly high-octane, perfectly played, heavyweight brass, amazing sound..but I fail to hear the patient narrative unfold as Bernstein and Barshai do so well. Barbirolli - that's the one that put me off this symphony for so long. Normally I'm a huge fan of his conducting, and especially his Mahler. But he sometimes tends to take a dark, grim view of things and that makes the funeral march pretty soporific for me, the Adagietto lifeless, and the finale _way_ too long. Now that I like the symphony more, I ought to revisit it though. And then Karajan - of course there is that creamy sound, but I actually think his funeral march and Adagietto work pretty well. Still lacks the requisite drama and tension, though. When I'm in the mood for this work again, I think it will be Karajan, Barbirolli, and Schwarz (which I started listening to once, but wanted something in better sound so switched to Kubelik).


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## Knorf

Oh, yeah, Kubelík! He did a great job with Mahler 5.

Iván Fischer's is also excellent. He argues it is the most "Jewish" of all Mahler symphonies, and makes a strong case for this in a very compelling performance.


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## Heck148

Becca said:


> - Don't tell Heck who lives and breathes anything to do with the CSO, Reiner & Solti, but I ditched my Solti recording and have avoided his Mahler, over bright and driven.


I freely admit my admiration for Reiner, Solti and the CSO....I certainly have lots of company amongst musicians and music-lovers..tons of it...
I had the great privilege if hearing the Solti/CSO Mahler 5 concert at Carnegie Hall in 3/70...a cosmic event that has achieved a rather "legendary" reputation..it indeed was terrific....I had heard virtually all of the greatest orchestras in the world by that point, some repeatedly and often...but this Solti Mahler 5 was something else, a whole different level...still the greatest single concert I've ever experienced. 
I've subsequently heard many more performances of it -NYPO, BSO, Abbado/LSO (excellent!!), Tennstedt/LPO (good), RochesterPO, Pittsburgh, etc, etc...performed it in Syracuse..it's a great piece, one of my favorites...difficult to play, and conduct....


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## Becca

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ... You'd never believe it was a youth orchestra, but part of me actually thinks that's part of what it makes it so good - they're putting it all out there, not afraid to be young and brash, not letting stodgy professionalism get in their way...


It is interesting that two of my top Mahler symphony recommendations are youth orchestras, the Barshai 5th and Rattle's 8th with the NYOGB. Part of it is probably excitement about getting a go at it for (probably) the first time.


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## Knorf

Heck148, please don't misunderstand, I'm an enormous fan of the Chicago Symphony (and Chicago the city in general.) I make it a point to hear the CSO whenever I'm in town, a few times a year, and in fact my wife and I are donors to the CSO. That orchestra is very dear to me, even though I've never lived in Illinois or indeed anywhere close by.


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## Heck148

Knorf said:


> Heck148, please don't misunderstand, I'm an enormous fan of the Chicago Symphony (and Chicago the city in general.) I make it a point to hear the CSO whenever I'm in town, a few times a year, and in fact my wife and I are donors to the CSO. That orchestra is very dear to me, even though I've never lived in Illinois or indeed anywhere close by.


No problem...I've been going out to Chi for years to hear the orchestra (and go to Buddy Guy's Blues Legends)...my wife was a Chicago girl all the way..
I've been trying to get out to hear them for the last 2 years... last year, the orchestra went on strike, this year the virus screwed everything up....lots of canxed concerts...damn!!


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## Knorf

I also quite like the Abbado/Chicago Symphony Mahler 5, come to think of it. I don't own it anymore; I think I had it on cassette. I've heard it since then, though. Anyway, I think it's not far interpretively from the quality of Abbado's Berliner account, and the orchestral performance is every bit as good.


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## Heck148

Knorf said:


> I also quite like the Abbado/Chicago Symphony Mahler 5, come to think of it. I don't own it anymore; I think I had it on cassette. I've heard it since then, though. Anyway, I think it's not far interpretively from the quality of Abbado's Berliner account, and the orchestral performance is every bit as good.


Yes, the Abbado/CSO M5 is superb, perhaps my very favorite..DG did a great job with the sound, no apparent knob-twiddling that the London/Decca guys did...Abbado is a great Mahlerian, imo...I heard him conduct #9 with BPO at Boston Symphony Hall. Very fine, tremendous concert.


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## flamencosketches

Great to see all this discussion. So I'm reminded of the Barshai/Junge Deutsche Philharmonie (sp?) which I've been meaning to check out for quite some time now. Kubelik too I will have to check out, and perhaps Abbado. Bernstein/Vienna, but I'm trying to take a break from Lenny in Mahler... Man, too many recordings, too little time/money.


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## Knorf

flamencosketches said:


> Man, too many recordings, too little time/money.


Ain't that the truth!

My wishlist still has hundreds of titles on it. I have the Shipway/Royal Phil. Mahler 5 coming in the mail, too. I'm a bit nervous about the 4th mvt (14' ), but it's received so many positive reviews, and that Shostakovich 10 is SO good, my curiosity demands to be sated. Also, it's €3.99 from jpc.de right now!


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## flamencosketches

Knorf said:


> Ain't that the truth!
> 
> My wishlist still has hundreds of titles on it. I have the Shipway/Royal Phil. Mahler 5 coming in the mail, too. I'm a bit nervous about the 4th mvt (14' ), but it's received so many positive reviews, and that Shostakovich 10 is SO good, my curiosity demands to be sated. Also, it's €3.99 from jpc.de right now!


No way... a fourteen minute Adagietto?! That's an extreme stance to say the least.


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## Knorf

I'm sorry, it's actually not _that_ bad. It's 12'27" in actual fact. Still....slllllllllooooowwwww....


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## Becca

Vanska's adagietto is even slower at 12.40, rather a big difference from contemporary reports indicating that Mahler's preferred tempo was somewhere around 8 minutes.


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## flamencosketches

Knorf said:


> I'm sorry, it's actually not _that_ bad. It's 12'27" in actual fact. Still....slllllllllooooowwwww....


Personally, I like a slow Adagietto, Bernstein and yes, Karajan are about my ideal, but that might venture into _too_ slow territory. Do let me know what you think. I owe you an apology for trashing Shipway's Shostakovich 10, it's really not as bad as I remember, and that second movement is great, though I still prefer Petrenko/RLPO overall.

Sampling the Barshai, it really does sound good. Does anyone know where it's available on CD?


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## Knorf

Boulez/Wiener Philharmoniker is kind of a slow Adagietto as well, at 10'59".


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## flamencosketches

Knorf said:


> Boulez/Wiener Philharmoniker is kind of a slow Adagietto as well, at 10'59".


It is. Not what I, for one, would have expected from Boulez. But I thought it worked pretty well.


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## Kiki

The Adagietto of Boulez/Vienna is pretty slow, although Boulez/BBCSO/1970 was quite "normal" clocking at 8:20.

Haitink/Berlin/1988 clocked at 13:55, but he speeded up and slowed down quite extremely.

This is my pet peeve - Scherchen/Philadelphia/1964 clocked at a whopping 15:13, but this shouldn't count, since he actually changed the structure of the symphony by making heavy cuts in the Scherzo to make that the intermezzo and the Adagietto became the main piece.

Think it's been mentioned somewhere at TC that there are even slower ones.

Having said that, "Slow" Bruno did it at 7:36 in 1947. I like that very much. He wasn't really slow.


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## flamencosketches

Kiki said:


> This is my pet peeve - Scherchen/Philadelphia/1964 clocked at a whopping 15:13, but this shouldn't count, since he actually changed the structure of the symphony by making heavy cuts in the Scherzo to make that the intermezzo and the Adagietto became the main piece.


That sounds infuriating, and I'm usually not so much of a stickler about going against the composer's instructions. I wonder if that's anyone's top pick for Mahler 5. I know many have recommended Scherchen's Mahler to me before.


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## Oldhoosierdude

flamencosketches said:


> That sounds infuriating, and I'm usually not so much of a stickler about going against the composer's instructions. I wonder if that's anyone's top pick for Mahler 5. I know many have recommended Scherchen's Mahler to me before.


I have Scherchen's Mahler 1 & 2. I have seen complaints about them being too idiosyncratic but I don't mind them. I like the 1st better than the 2nd but neither is an abomination. Never heard that Mahler 5.


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## Oldhoosierdude

A search of the thread says that Gatti's recording has not been mentioned. I found that one a year or so back and greatly enjoy it. I also got Saraste's 2014 recording on a free download once and it has wonderful sound, plus it is a bit of a different take at times, quite refreshing.


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## flamencosketches

Oldhoosierdude said:


> A search of the thread says that Gatti's recording has not been mentioned. I found that one a year or so back and greatly enjoy it. I also got Saraste's 2014 recording on a free download once and it has wonderful sound, plus it is a bit of a different take at times, quite refreshing.


I remember when that Saraste was available as a free download I got it too, but somehow or another it's been deleted from my library; I can't find it anywhere. Too bad, I thought it was quite good.


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## Kiki

^^ Please don't let Scherchen's strange 1964 Mahler 5 deter you or anyone from exploring his legacy. His other Mahler 5 from 1952 with the Wiener Staatsopernorchester is quite "normal. (This Adagietto clocked at 9:15.) Idiosyncratic? Yes, but I like it, as with many of his recordings, Mahler or Beethoven. These are pretty dynamic stuff.


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## Heck148

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I have Scherchen's Mahler 1 & 2. I have seen complaints about them being too idiosyncratic but I don't mind them. I like the 1st better than the 2nd but neither is an abomination. Never heard that Mahler 5.


Forget it... don't bother...pretty poor....


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## Bill H.

For those who admire Kubelik's approach to this work, it's worth mentioning that there's a much earlier performance by him, recorded live at the 1951 Holland Festival with the Concertgebouw [from this same Festival there also exists a pretty amazing "Resurrection" conducted by Klemperer featuring Kathleen Ferrier that's very different from his later stereo version). The only commercial release I know about of this performance was some years ago on the Tahra label. For those clocking it, the Adagietto in the '51 Kubelik is about 9'25". Unfortunately, there's a little audible damage to the recording of that movement--Dutch Radio in those days was still using transcription disks, which had good sound for the time, but the disks were always vulnerable. 

And if you want to hear an Adagietto that can be argued has the most direct tie to the composer's idea of it, listen to Mengelberg's 1926 recording with the Concertgebouw, which clocks in at less than 7'10"! And that portamento is just amazing. 

If you're interested in the '51 Kubelik but can't locate it, let me know.


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## Eclectic Al

Encouraged by this thread I have just listened to the five versions of Mahler 5 which I have on CD.

Barbirolli / New Philharmonia: Whether it’s the recording quality or the standard of playing, too many passages lose clarity, and this is distracting.
Mehta / LAPO: Exhilarating, but not one for repeated listening. Too driven.
Rattle/BPO: OK, but does it hang together? Somewhat mannered or self-conscious on occasion?
Karajan/BPO: A thumbs up. Perhaps the orchestral virtuosity allows the performance to go too far in places (- a back-handed compliment), but nevertheless it hangs together overall.
MacKerras/RLPO: A beautifully sane performance lacking in egotism, and one I would return to repeatedly. By the way, “sane” is absolutely meant as a positive.

The above views perhaps reflect a personal feeling that it is precisely in recordings of more “fevered” pieces that a degree of dispassionate objectivity pays dividends. A piece which is already letting it all hang out does not necessarily benefit from being pushed even further to extremes, especially for repeated listening.

Hence, of the five 5s to hand, I perhaps end up with MacKerras for repeated listening, and Karajan for a guilty treat. Not many mentions of MacKerras in the posts here.


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## Knorf

Charles Mackerras was one of those underrated conductors (except in Janáček, and Mozart to a lesser degree) who was at least very good in almost anything. 

A dark horse Shostakovich 5 that I think very highly of is Mackerras with the Royal Philharmonic. On that basis, I'd speculate his Mahler is worth hearing. I'd be very curious to hear his Mahler 5! I'll make a note to investigate at some point.


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## flamencosketches

I listened to the Karajan again yesterday and enjoyed it much more this time. I can't make up my mind on that recording, for some reason. 

Over the past week I've listened to all four of my Mahler 5's: Boulez/Vienna, Barshai/JDP, Bernstein/NY, & Karajan/Berlin. I honestly cannot decide between the 4 which one is better than the other. All four have their merits. MAYBE Karajan falls a little behind the others on interpretation, MAYBE Bernstein's NY Phil falls a little behind on quality of orchestral playing, but beyond that I can easily see myself returning to all four of these. I might even listen to all four again over the coming weeks. I'm kind of hooked on the 5th at the moment. I also have another famous one coming to me soon, Bernstein/Vienna as part of his DG cycle. Really excited about that one.


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## Knorf

That Bernstein/Wiener Philharmoniker Mahler 5 is just awesome. I'm sure you'll like it! Do give Iván Fischer's a chance someday as well. (I know; they're expensive. But not forever!)

I have the Frank Shipway/Royal Phil. SACD on the way from Germany. It was so cheap! Anyway, I will report on it once it gets here and I have a chance to listen to it a couple times.

What you've discovered is what I always say: in great music, no one performance or recording can ever have all of the answers. Even when I talk about my favorite recording or the one I regard as "best," I always remember that it's very healthy to change my mind, maybe even necessary, and regardless of that to never forget the previous sentence.


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## flamencosketches

Knorf said:


> That Bernstein/Wiener Philharmoniker Mahler 5 is just awesome. I'm sure you'll like it! Do give Iván Fischer's a chance someday as well. (I know; they're expensive. But not forever!)
> 
> I have the Frank Shipway/Royal Phil. SACD on the way from Germany. It was so cheap! Anyway, I will report on it once it gets here and I have a chance to listen to it a couple times.
> 
> What you've discovered is what I always say: in great music, no one performance or recording can ever have all of the answers. Even when I talk about my favorite recording or the one I regard as "best," I always remember that it's very healthy to change my mind, maybe even necessary, and regardless of that to never forget the previous sentence.


Indeed. That's how I know Mahler is a great composer. Unfortunately it means he's a damn expensive composer to be into! After a certain point I'm going to have to cut myself off forever on Mahler... though I doubt I'll be able to stick with it.


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## Knorf

flamencosketches said:


> Indeed. That's how I know Mahler is a great composer. Unfortunately it means he's a damn expensive composer to be into! After a certain point I'm going to have to cut myself off forever on Mahler... though I doubt I'll be able to stick with it.


I think I thought I was done collecting Mahler at least a half dozen times!


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## Becca

Make it a rule to cull one (or better, two) recordings for every new one that you buy :lol:


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## flamencosketches

Becca said:


> Make it a rule to cull one (or better, two) recordings for every new one that you buy :lol:


Not a bad idea actually.


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## brunumb

I read somewhere that the Rondo-Finale should follow on immediately from the Adagietto without any pause. Are there any recordings where this directive is followed?


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## Heck148

brunumb said:


> I read somewhere that the Rondo-Finale should follow on immediately from the Adagietto without any pause. Are there any recordings where this directive is followed?


It should always be followed - it's marked in the score, at end of Adagietto <<_attacca Rondo-Finale_>>


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## brunumb

Heck148 said:


> It should always be followed - it's marked in the score, at end of Adagietto <<_attacca Rondo-Finale_>>


I can't recall which CD I last listened to, but the pause before the final movement was about 10 seconds. Do the producers of CDs just automatically put in the usual gaps between tracks without consideration for the musical requirements?


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## NLAdriaan

brunumb said:


> I can't recall which CD I last listened to, but the pause before the final movement was about 10 seconds. Do the producers of CDs just automatically put in the usual gaps between tracks without consideration for the musical requirements?


The recording probably wasn't all to memorable with a reason, as any decent Mahler 5 recording and of course also any live concert follows without a time gap.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Shipway strikes me as perhaps the best version, but my heart’s still with Barbirolli in this symphony.

Other great versions include the dramatic Horenstein on Pristine, dark, beautiful Schwarz on Everest, and passionate Bernstein DG.

One of the most underrated versions is 1967 Neumann/Gewandhaus on Philips or Brilliant Classics. Everything sounds just right. I also enjoy Barshai, Levine/RCA, and yes, I do enjoy the Scherchens, nutty and impossibly sloppy as they are. 

Walter is also great even though the Adagietto feels rushed.


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## HenryPenfold

Walter
Kubelik
Karajan
Gergiev

Then on a different day, four others :lol:


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## Knorf

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Shipway strikes me as perhaps the best version...


Interesting. My copy is in the mail, and I'm quite excited to listen to it!


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## Knorf

So, I've listened twice through Frank Shipway's Mahler 5, and I think it immediately slots into my top five favorite recordings of that symphony. I'm not going to try to put them in some kind of order, but this recording belongs among them.

And I say this despite his choice of a funereal Adagietto, which I don't agree with. Given that he made this choice, he and the Royal Philharmonic strings did a great job!

How to characterize this recording. Hmm.

In general, it's a performance that goes for huge contrasts in affect, dynamics, tempo. In some performances, swinging for the fence every time leads to so much scenery chewing that it actually undermines the drama. You become distracted by the performer to the detriment of the music. (Of course, some people like this.) Sorry for mixing metaphors. If I stick with the baseball metaphor, swinging for the fences every time leads to a really shirty batting average.

Shipway stays _just_ inside what for me would be trying too hard to highlight contrasts, and that is all to the good. It never becomes vacuously histrionic or maudlin. I suppose in that regard this interpretation reminds me most of Bernstein, but it's different enough in where the emphases fall that I'm happy to own this one as well as Bernstein's Weiner Philharmoniker CD. (I don't own the NYPO Mahler 5 from Bernstein because in that one the orchestra playing is too sloppy for me to live with as a recording.)

The trumpet solo is excellent, and the big emotional swings in the first movement are terrific; they're vivid and attention-grabbing without losing sight of the big picture. The brass playing in general is superb.

The second movement is among the most vehement I've heard. Mahler's indication is "Stürmisch bewegt, mit größter Vehemenz," which I translate as "Stormy agitation, with the greatest vehemence." Too many conductors don't really go for the "größter Vehemenz." In fact, that's the one element that takes a point away (for me) from Abbado's otherwise fantastic Berliner account. Too little vehemence. Later in the movement, when the clouds part and the sun's radiance dries away the tears, Shipway's performance for me was full on frisson.

This symphony lives or dies with the horn soloist in the Scherzo, and I can report that RPO principal hornist John Bimson does a great job. Otherwise, Shipway's pushing for contrasts comes the closest to derailing the plot in this movement, but not quite. Still, I prefer other performances of this movement in holding the discursive structure together. Suffice it say there are numerous really effective moments throughout in Shipway and the RPO's performance.

As for the Adagietto, I've already mentioned how I feel about it. It's done very well if you like it this slow. It doesn't drag into the mud, which is difficult at that tempo.

The last movement is fabulous, one of the best. All disparate threads come together, and it is very exciting, with a terrific push right to the end. Did I mention frisson? I'm feeling that right now just thinking about it.

TL;DR-this is a great Mahler recording, and collectors should buy it before all of the stock is gone. It's recently been on sale at jpc.de for €3.99!


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## starthrower

I might grab that Shipway. I have a musician friend who recommended it a while back.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I need to hear the Shipway, but streaming - my sole source of listening - comes up empty, as does YouTube. I might have to spend money on an individual music purchase for the first time in my life!


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## Brahmsianhorn

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I need to hear the Shipway, but streaming - my sole source of listening - comes up empty, as does YouTube. I might have to spend money on an individual music purchase for the first time in my life!


That's a shame! It's on my both my go-to accounts: Apple Music and Idagio


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## Allegro Con Brio

Brahmsianhorn said:


> That's a shame! It's on my both my go-to accounts: Apple Music and Idagio


Well, whaddya know! I use Idagio too. I searched for it yesterday - nothing. I just tried another search and it showed up! They must have added it recently. :clap:


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## starthrower

Symphony No. 5 in C-Sharp Minor Royal Philharmonic Orchestra · Gustav Mahler · Frank Shipway


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## Heck148

starthrower said:


> Symphony No. 5 in C-Sharp Minor Royal Philharmonic Orchestra · Gustav Mahler · Frank Shipway


Sounds good....Solti is even more vicious, and the brass is stronger...but Shipway's guys are going at it for sure...


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## Merl

That Shipway disc has grown on me a lot over the years. I never used to rate it that highly but now think its very good. Opinions change.


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> That Shipway disc has grown on me a lot over the years. I never used to rate it that highly but now think its very good. Opinions change.


If I get to the point when my opinions can't change, it means I'm dead.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> If I get to the point when my opinions can't change, it means I'm dead.


If only some people were as open-minded!


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## perdido34

Knorf said:


> I have the Frank Shipway/Royal Phil. SACD on the way from Germany. It was so cheap! Anyway, I will report on it once it gets here and I have a chance to listen to it a couple times.


I'm fairly sure that this performance was recorded in stereo at 16/44.1, so if the SACD has multichannel tracks, they were simulated and don't reflect what was actually recorded. But tell me if I'm wrong once you get the SACD.


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## starthrower

I couldn't find that Shipway SACD at JPC for 3.99 Euros. There's a Shipway listing for 5.99 but it doesn't say SACD. And it's not in stock. https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...1860-1911-Symphonie-Nr-5/hnum/1821659?lang=en


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## Knorf

perdido34 said:


> I'm fairly sure that this performance was recorded in stereo at 16/44.1, so if the SACD has multichannel tracks, they were simulated and don't reflect what was actually recorded. But tell me if I'm wrong once you get the SACD.


I only listen in stereo. The recording sounds very good, but I don't know whether the SACD is from a 24 bit original or not; I've not done a comparison with the CD layer, and who knows whether I'd hear anything. I will say that it would be very dumb to pay the extra cost to produce SACDs if you didn't originally record at 24 bit, especially for a mid-price or budget release!



starthrower said:


> I couldn't find that Shipway SACD at JPC for 3.99 Euros. There's a Shipway listing for 5.99 but it doesn't say SACD. And it's not in stock. https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...1860-1911-Symphonie-Nr-5/hnum/1821659?lang=en


That's a previous CD release. Sorry, looks like it's out of stock at jpc.de now.


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## flamencosketches

I ordered the Barbirolli. Excited to spend time with it. I think it's my 6th Mahler 5, just ridiculous.


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## Becca

flamencosketches said:


> I ordered the Barbirolli. Excited to spend time with it. I think it's my 6th Mahler 5, just ridiculous.


There was a time in the distance past, pre-TC, when I would have been surprised at 6 different versions of a work, however now it takes a lot more to surprise me. Even 20 or 30 isn't that unusual ... weird but not unusual


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## flamencosketches

Becca said:


> There was a time in the distance past, pre-TC, when I would have been surprised at 6 different versions of a work, however now it takes a lot more to surprise me. Even 20 or 30 isn't that unusual ... weird but not unusual


When I take a step back and think about it, I can't help but think it's silly. The way I justify it is that Mahler's 5th is a work with a great wealth of interpretive materials. It can be made mournful & sweetly lyrical, fiery & dramatic, cool & contrapuntal, deeply emotional & soul-crushing, or any combination of the aforementioned. Still, 6 is too many. I'll binge-listen to all of them when it arrives and try my best to eliminate the weakest link...


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> Still, 6 is too many. I'll binge-listen to all of them when it arrives and try my best to eliminate the weakest link...


I'm already up to seven. But only a few of these were bought specifically. The others were part of complete cycles. For several years I didn't reach for M5 very often but now I'm on a kick. I still want one more which is the Shipway.


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## Giorgio Pitzalis

Right now I'm listening to Oramo's version with CBSO and find it a little disappointing. I note that two very good directors in Mahler's 5 were not mentioned (besides some of my favorite versions such as Shipway, Schwarz, Abbado, Bernstein, Tennestedt, Barshai, Kubelik, Bertini, Gielen, Gatti etc.) and they are Wyn Morris and especially Zander (with excellent Telarc sound!). Let me also mention (a little chauvinism ..) the fantastic sound recording of Chailly with the best Mahlerian orchestra: RCO!
greetings to all from Sardinia


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## Oldhoosierdude

Giorgio Pitzalis said:


> Right now I'm listening to Oramo's version with CBSO and find it a little disappointing. I note that two very good directors in Mahler's 5 were not mentioned (besides some of my favorite versions such as Shipway, Schwarz, Abbado, Bernstein, Tennestedt, Barshai, Kubelik, Bertini, Gielen, Gatti etc.) and they are Wyn Morris and especially Zander (with excellent Telarc sound!). Let me also mention (a little chauvinism ..) the fantastic sound recording of Chailly with the best Mahlerian orchestra: RCO!
> greetings to all from Sardinia


I have Zander conducting a youth orchestra for symphony no. 9, it's quite good.


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## perdido34

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I have Zander conducting a youth orchestra for symphony no. 9, it's quite good.


Several years ago, Zander came to Severance Hall in Cleveland with the Akron Symphony Orchestra, which is a group of professionals that plays a few concerts a year. He did his lecture on Mahler 9 and then conducted a performance. It was truly outstanding--these musicians outdid themselves.


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## Isaac Blackburn

I'm curious, what does TC think of Gergiev's London Symphony Orchestra recordings?


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## CnC Bartok

Isaac Blackburn said:


> I'm curious, what does TC think of Gergiev's London Symphony Orchestra recordings?


My worst set. Bland as hell, even if well played (but that's expected). I haven't listened to them for some time, and probably won't.

Gergiev is good in Russian music, his Boris and his Prokofiev stand out, although others are better there as well. I sense a certain attitude of indifference towards Mahler, like the research parasitologist, he's merely going through the motions.....

I find his politics highly distasteful as well, but try not to let that cloud my judgment.


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## CnC Bartok

Just ordered the Shipway (and his Shostakovich 10 that is praised highly here too) just over £3 each second hand....


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## Knorf

For sure, Gergiev's coziness with the likes of Putin is abhorrent. But I am grateful for all his work in Russian music, especially in operas of Mussorgsky, Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Shostakovich, Prokofiev... His talents really shine there. And I'm one of those who loves his LSO Prokofiev set.

His Mahler, though. It's... problematic. I won't dismiss it out of hand; I think he definitely _did_ care about it. But his choices interpretively are often really weird. Perhaps in time we'll see a re-appreciation for his Mahler.



CnC Bartok said:


> Just ordered the Shipway (and his Shostakovich 10 that is praised highly here too) just over £3 each second hand....


ETA: both are outstanding. Of course I've already been on record advocating for them. Do be ready for a slllloooowww Adagietto in Mahler 5. No such issues in Shostakovich 10.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Gergiev is one of my favorite living conductors especially for Russian music, he’s definitely one of the few today that are willing to go for broke and take huge risks and interpretive leaps. His Scheherazade, Tchaikovsky and Prokofiev symphonies, Rite of Spring...all fantastic. But his Mahler...aaggghhh! I actually learned the Mahler symphonies through his recordings, but once I started hearing others I immediately knew I never wanted to touch the Gergiev ones again. It seems like the interpretations were not thought out very well and they just don’t hang together coherently at all. I guess the 2nd is pretty good, as is the 8th (which has an awesome reverberating cathedral acoustic) but I wouldn’t mind if I never heard a note of the rest again.


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## Oldhoosierdude

CnC Bartok said:


> Just ordered the Shipway (and his Shostakovich 10 that is praised highly here too) just over £3 each second hand....


The Shipway Shostakovich 10 is also available here as a download







https://www.amazon.com/Big-Shostakovich-Box-Various-artists/dp/B079C3MSZL/ref=sr_1_1?crid=7KFAKJ2P44D&dchild=1&keywords=big+shostakovich+box&qid=1590408619&sprefix=big+shost%2Caps%2C188&sr=8-1


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## Oldhoosierdude

I believe this recording by Dudamel and his "youth" Orchestra (they look like grown adults to me) is a good one. Not sure if the Youtube thing is the same recording that is released on CD. I quite enjoy it, although I have seen good and bad reviews. One reviewer going so far as to say avoid this one. Oh, well. A possible future acquisition for me. See what you think.


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## Knorf

Dudamel is a bit maddening to me. Obviously, there are some things he does extraordinarily well. But he gets far too excited in the moment and⁠—please pardon the expression⁠—climaxes way too early. There might still be a Dudamel Mahler 3 with the Berliner Philharmoniker floating around that's almost hilarious in how poor its timing and pacing are. 

I keep hoping maybe he'll grow out of it, develop some subtlety, but so far there's no indication of that.

But, I mean, he's a rockstar, on top of the world. What motivation does he have to pay attention to some grouch on the Internet?


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## Heck148

I checked out mvt I of the above cited Dudamel Mahler 5....overall, pretty decent, certainly not bad...Dudamel's tempos in loud, brassy, trumpet call sections are good, he generates excitement...however, the 2nd, lyrical theme introduced by the strings is too slow every time...and the performance loses momentum...it really needs to move forward and not bog down...generally good playing, good trumpet solo work, a couple of smudgy triplet figures, some other brass licks not strong enough, but that's getting nitpicky....I assume it's from live performance, so balances and accuracy can sometimes be "at risk".
I think I'll check out the rest of it...not the greatest, but not bad either.


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## starthrower

CnC Bartok said:


> Just ordered the Shipway (and his Shostakovich 10 that is praised highly here too) just over £3 each second hand....


I ordered the Shipway M5 today from a British vendor for the same price. But I most likely won't receive it for 4-5 weeks.


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## CnC Bartok

starthrower said:


> I ordered the Shipway M5 today from a British vendor for the same price. But I most likely won't receive it for 4-5 weeks.


..... it's alright, Starth, things are a bit slow at the moment, for some reason or other....:angel:


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## Oldhoosierdude

Knorf said:


> Dudamel is a bit maddening to me. Obviously, there are some things he does extraordinarily well. But he gets far too excited in the moment and⁠-please pardon the expression⁠-climaxes way too early. There might still be a Dudamel Mahler 3 with the Berliner Philharmoniker floating around that's almost hilarious in how poor its timing and pacing are.
> 
> I keep hoping maybe he'll grow out of it, develop some subtlety, but so far there's no indication of that.
> 
> But, I mean, he's a rockstar, on top of the world. What motivation does he have to pay attention to some grouch on the Internet?


I am interested whether this video is the same as the CD release. They have different dates but I am not sure what the youtube date signifies.

I must confess that Gussie's appeal to me may be due to this similarity .


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## starthrower

CnC Bartok said:


> ..... it's alright, Starth, things are a bit slow at the moment, for some reason or other....:angel:


Nah, it's all a hoax. The beaches are rockin' here.


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## CnC Bartok

starthrower said:


> Nah, it's all a hoax. The beaches are rockin' here.


They're rockin' here too, well, in Durham and Castle Barnard.....:devil:


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