# Bach: Cello Suites, BWV 1007-1012



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Bach's Cello Suites are currently on the eighth tier of the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works.

Wikipedia has an article about them, including a tiny little bit of analysis. This site has featured many discussions about recordings, and I'll link to several of them below, but the best source for recording recommendations is probably Trout's blog post on this work:



> Condensed Listing:
> 1.	Fournier	(1960)
> 2.	Casals	(1939)
> 3.	Starker	(1961)
> ...


Feel free to discuss your favorite recordings, but here are some threads where that topic has been explored:

Best interpretations of Bach's Cello Suites
Best CD of Bach's Cello Suites 
Your Bach Cello Suites recordings 
Best cellist for JS Bach's Suites for solo cello 
The many varieties of Bach's cello suites 
Cello Suites Recommendation 
Bach Cello Suites 

Trout's recommendations are special because he took all those threads into account.

Also, here are some threads of a different nature: 
Playing the Bach Cello Suites 
Playing Edition of Bach Cello Suites 
Bach Cello Suites on the Double-Bass 
Bach Cello Suites Harmonic Analysis 
TC Listening Club: Cello Suite #6

There is little need to create another thread with the same topic as those, but hopefully this one will be unique in that as usual, the main questions here are: *Do you like these works? Do you love them? Why? What do you like about them? Do you have any reservations about them? What would you want someone new to these works to know about them?*


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Didn't have to think about this one. Only Steven Isserlis can perform them for me with his rich intense performance


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

1. Casals, 2. Fournier for me


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

science said:


> Do you like these works? Do you love them? Why? What do you like about them?


I love them, for any number of reasons. First, I'm a cellist who aspires to play them. I've managed the first suite, and selected movements from the last five, but playing all six is on my bucket list. As solo works, they present almost unlimited interpretive possibilities, so I never tire of listening to them.



> What would you want someone new to these works to know about them?


That they lay virtually unknown and unperformed for nearly two centuries.

I've mentioned favorites on previous threads. They change from day to day - today they'd include Queyras, Geringas, Kirshbaum, Schiff, Wispelwey, Antonio Meneses, Andres Diaz. Several recent recordings that I've been enjoying are those of Ma (his third recording, much more interesting than the first two), Dariusz Skoraczewski, Istvan Vardai, Thomas Demenga, and Kivie Cahn-Lipman. And I still listen to Casals now and then. The reality is that I love whichever one I happen to be listening to, and I've lost count of what's on my shelf.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

science said:


> What would you want someone new to these works to know about them?[/B]


1. That _prima facie_ they're part of a long tradition of solo music for viol.

2. That the manuscript is not an autograph by Bach and it contains some indications which sometimes cellists have ignored.

3. That the 4, 5 and 6 seem to explore pushing the boundaries of the instrument

5. That the cello that Bach was writing for could well have been small, held on the shoulder like a viola.



science said:


> What do you like about them? [/B]


I like 6 and 2 most; I like the melancholy which some people give to 2 and the radiance of 6.



science said:


> Do you have any reservations about them?


If the performer tends to play without expressive rubato because he thinks they are dance pieces then I'm not so interested.



science said:


> Feel free to discuss your favorite recordings, but here are some threads where that topic has been explored:


Yes this has been explored, but there's an aspect which has been ignored, and that's transcriptions of the music on record -- for viol, viola, keyboard or whatever.


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## RockyIII (Jan 21, 2019)

I've purchased the Bach Suites for Solo Cello recordings on CD by Bailey, Bylsma, Isserlis, Ma (2), Mork, Queyras, and Starker. The Starker recording from 1997 remains my favorite, although I see it doesn't even make the top 10 in the list above.

Rocky


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I love the Bach Cello Suites. My daughter has played them all, and I've heard her perform most of them. I agree with wkasimer about the interpretive possibilities. Similar to the unaccompianied violin sonatas and partitas, they have a remarkable depth for a solo instrument. While I love the violin sonatas and partitas, I feel I hear a greater range of expression in the Cello Suites. 

I heard Haimovitz perform all 6. That was a special treat. I enjoy all performances I've heard, but I have a special place for Rostropovich.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Does anyone know anything about Corelli's transcription of Bach's cello suites?

http://www.orestedetommaso.com/diary_2nd_march_2018.html


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2019)

If you mean Arcangelo Corelli, he died in 1713 and Bach wrote the Cello Suites most likely between 1717 and 1723.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ah yes I see now. Oreste de Tommaso has recorded the cello suites on a five string instrument called a violone de Corelli, he has made the transcription himself. My bad. The recording is not without merit.


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## Chris31 (Mar 24, 2020)

Casals is the only one I've listened to that for me achieves the great range that the suites are capable of. It would be extremely hypothetical to link it to the period Bach was going through, but the suites played by Casals seem to plumb emotional depths, of despair and release from despair, of perseverance – although I imagine some considerable degree of perseverance is required by any cellist learning and then getting through them! – and a strange hypnotic quality, an enveloping stillness that almost makes anything else seem trivial – finally bursting through with a triumphant note that leaves the air vibrating with wonder.

I think I must have first heard them as a young lad when I had limited time for classical music of any sort. I had taken some beers to the house of a friend and rather unexpectedly he put them on. I have had the vinyl box set now for more years than I can remember. 

Many of the recordings by other very notable cellists seem to rush through them, as if it were a contest to see how fast and accurately they can be played. While that might appeal to some, I personally find it bit irritating, as if it were all about the cellist rather than the spirit of the music. Anner Bylsma manages some of the pacing that allows the listener time to appreciate the notes but without the sheer intensity of Casals.

Perhaps one day I could surprise someone the way I had been surprised and faintly enchanted: yet the six suites in succession can also drive many people away!

My description probably sounds a bit over the top or even silly – mea culpa. If someone can explain it better perhaps? and the connection between the choice and succession of notes and the emotional effect? – that could be most enlightening. I have no training in describing music. If anything I think of Schopenhauer and the power that music has to elevate in a way beyond the other art forms.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

^You're not alone in that sentiment. There's something about the way that the music just seems to flow out of Casals on the spot that gives me chills. I certainly don't view his interpretations as definitive, for there have been so many since then that rival him on many levels, but certainly these are the most purely _special_ recordings of the Suites that we have today.

As far as science's questions for the threads, I think the main thing I would want someone new to this music to know is that the scores were not autographed by Bach, so their origin is shrouded in mystery. They only have the barest of details on them, leaving virtually everything besides the notes up to the performer to interpret. Time and time again it boggles my mind how diverse Bach is, and these suites exemplify everything about that - from the rich lyricism of the first suite to the grand nobility of the third, to the piercing tragedy and startling progressivity of the fifth (that C minor sarabande is something else; my jaw dropped the first time I heard it because it literally sounds like Schoenberg), to the radiant light of the sixth; the fact that the man crafted such a huge spectrum of expressions and ideas from a solo string instrument never fails to amaze me. There are times, like the allemande and sarabande of the 6th, where I wonder if this music isn't reaching to us from some distant spiritual realm and inviting us in. I truly do think these suites are one of the foremost achievements of Western music (though much of Bach's own work tops it still).

Trout's ranking surprises me somewhat. Not that Fournier is on top - that's a recording that gets a ton of plaudits, but which has always struck me as bland - but that Rostropovich is even on there. That one seems to be one of the most hated around here, but I don't dislike it nearly as much as most. Sure, he uses a thick tone and heavy rubato to achieve his highly "old-fashioned" interpretations, but I think they come off quite convincing and have a lot of personality, which is what I look for above all else in this music. Besides Casals, my creme de la creme is Kirshbaum (no idea why this does not get talked about more; it's rich and luxurious without the heavy idiosyncrasy of Rosty), Bylsma (his two versions are not really all that dissimilar from each other), and Queyras (who is maybe a little monochrome in the faster dances but is absolutely heavenly in the slower movements, which is my main criteria). Starker '61 remains a benchmark even if there is not a whole lot of personality. Alisa Weilerstein's new recording may be worthy to up there with the greats too - very bold and imaginative readings. I have not heard Nos. 8-10 on the list, but I can state my opinion that Schiff belongs nowhere near the top 10 with his ridiculously fast tempi.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I have a love/hate relationship with the cello suites, but it's not Bach's fault. During my university days I had to play the French Horn transcriptions of the suites all the time. It bordered on sadomasochism. Needless to say, I prefer them played on cello. 

ALSO - Alisa Weilerstein's recording of all six suites was just released earlier this month, and it's marvelous.


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## Sad Al (Feb 27, 2020)

Olias said:


> I Alisa Weilerstein's recording of all six suites was just released earlier this month, and it's marvelous.


It sure is (her Elgar is ok), but what difference does it make when we humans are increasingly stupid, harmful, boring, disgusting, psychopatic and suicidal?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I have more recordings of the suites than I can shake a stick at and wouldn't have most of that list in my top ten but we all hear different things. I had my say in the threads you mentioned, science, so I'm not gonna go on about them in this one. I will say that Ma's last recording was the best he's done but would it make my top ten? I'm not sure.  I do agree with ACB about Fournier and Rotropovich on there..........


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## Sad Al (Feb 27, 2020)

Sad Al said:


> It sure is (her Elgar is ok), but what difference does it make when we humans are increasingly stupid, harmful, boring, disgusting, psychopatic and suicidal?


To elaborate, no one writes music like Bach cello suites anymore. It's all decline since 1750 and now we can't wait until the evil virus somehow magically goes away and we can again enjoy our F1 races and football and Greta climate teenager porn.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

I have 3 recordings - Fournier, Bailey, and Rostropovich.

While I appreciate the Fournier recording, it is the Rostropovich that I reach for most. But I'm just a layman - I like what I like, and don't have any formal training to know why one recording is better than another from a technical standpoint.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I did a big comparative listening project on Bach's Cello Suites, focusing on recentish recordings (no one needs to prove to me how great Starker and Casals were in these.)

Long story short, the recording I ended up with at the top was David Watkin. I see that this one is not in the top 10, but I thought it was terrific.









If you want a real treat, you'll have to hear me play these on the contrabassoon. :devil:


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Knorf said:


> I did a big comparative listening project on Bach's Cello Suites, focusing on recentish recordings (no one needs to prove to me how great Starker and Casals were in these.)
> 
> Long story short, the recording I ended up with at the top was David Watkin. I see that this one is not in the top 10, but I thought it was terrific.
> 
> ...


Ah, I sang in my Uni choir with David (he always got the solos ). Conducted usually by John Butt. I have a lot of Butt's conducting recordings... thank you for pointing me in the direction of David's Bach cello recording: much appreciated.


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## PMarlowe (Feb 5, 2014)

How about Jean-Max Clément? His 1958 recordings for L'Oiseau Lyre were re-released on 180g vinyl. Anyone able to opine on that re-issue? The CD version sounds quite good, even on Spotify.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I love them, and I love quite a few recordings of them, each for their own qualities: not only Fournier, Rostropovich and Maisky but also some of the HIP performances. As someone else said above I'm a student cellist as well and have managed some of the simpler movements but have yet to reach a level to take on all of them yet.
This to me is a near-miracle: it's being played on four strings stretched over a wooden box but it sounds almost orchestral. And yes I know it was for a 5-string instrument, but still:




And the song-like, or aria-like, quality of this blows me away every time I listen to it. The ending of the second section as Rostropovich plays it here sounds like peaceful, contented breathing:




And this one is beyond words:


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## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

I'd like to give a shout out to a dark horse: Wispelwey. He uses unusual tuning and bowing to create a very different soundscape. Guts strings too. I can hear the bass fill up my whole body when listening through speakers.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...eter-wispelwey-392-50th-anniversary-recording

Can we also mention transcriptions of the suites? I love Podger's playing of them on violin. Have only sampled it, but it's been on my radar.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8607199--js-bach-cello-suites


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

GrosseFugue said:


> I'd like to give a shout out to a dark horse: Wispelwey. He uses unusual tuning and bowing to create a very different soundscape. Guts strings too. I can hear the bass fill up my whole body when listening through speakers.
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...eter-wispelwey-392-50th-anniversary-recording
> 
> ...


Do you know if Wispelwey uses the Anna Magdalena phrasing? Does he say in the booklet? If you like it the you should try Bylsma's second recording, the one on the Stradivarius cello.


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## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> Do you know if Wispelwey uses the Anna Magdalena phrasing? Does he say in the booklet?


Can't recall. I didn't even know different phrasings had their own names! I'll look for that. And since I'm here I'd second Alisa Weilerstein's 2020 recording for a more "contemporary approach." I've heard it described as both romantic and meditative. Sounds right!  https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8765771--bach-cello-suites

And a shout-out for another transcription -- this time on piano. May not be to everyone's taste, but it is remarkable in its own way! Just came out recently. Was enjoying it this morning on primephonic streaming.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...-transcribed-and-performed-by-eleonor-bindman


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

GrosseFugue said:


> Can't recall. I didn't even know different phrasings had their own names! ...


It's a long-running controversy in the cello world. There are several different 18th century manuscripts of the suites, none of them from Bach himself. The first apparently was by Kellner and then came Anna Magdalena Bach's, which Bylsma and some others considered authoritative. Others think that that manuscript has enough errors in it to call it into question, and so they'll incorporate some of the other readings or just start out with a totally clean score and follow their instincts. Here's an old article that discusses some of it.

http://www.cello.org/Newsletter/Articles/bachsuitesandyou.htm


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Chris31 said:


> Many of the recordings by other very notable cellists seem to rush through them, as if it were a contest to see how fast and accurately they can be played. While that might appeal to some, I personally find it bit irritating, as if it were all about the cellist rather than the spirit of the music. Anner Bylsma manages some of the pacing that allows the listener time to appreciate the notes but without the sheer intensity of Casals.


I share this sentiment that recordings often feel way too rushed to enjoy the complex harmonies or to even just soak in the music itself. I don't think it's necessarily a contest to play them super fast and that's just the cellists interpretation (like I think Yo-Yo, Rostropovich, Fournier etc. of all people, have the reverence to the music for it to not be about their ego). For example, Courantes were meant to be played fast and that's what they believe to be the most authentic and stylistically idiomatic interpretation. But all in all, yeah. I wish cellists took them a tad slower.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*A UNIQUE BACH PROJECT BY MARIANNE DUMAS*

*



*


> Marianne began her researches in 2011. She first investigated the technique, posture and resonance of the instrument always using the Bach Cello Suites as a reference. In 2014, as she was still looking for more answers, Marianne moved to Berlin and started to work full time on her project. Once in Berlin, she first worked with makers of baroque instruments, had encounters with baroque specialists, made her research in libraries including the research institut for musicology of Berlin. Following this process, she wrote a publication about the violoncello, its origin, technique, set -up and evolution. She also made a new edition of the Bach Cello Suites and recorded it with the instruments of the project (full baroque set up).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Luka Sulic

Btw, the landscape strangely reminds me of




Japanese hiker SLIPPED from top of Mt. Fuji on LIVE STREAM


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