# Does n***** have a place in opera?



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

ok another article about nudity. from face book. couldn't find the other thread so made a new one.
http://www.operavivra.com/blog/nudity-in-opera/


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Can't see a problem as long as it has a feasibility with regards to the story - naked Rheinmaidens and a veil-less Salome are credible and wouldn't exactly get me reaching for the smelling salts, nor would various states of undress in brothel scenes i.e. _The Rake's Progress_ and _The Threepenny Opera_.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I am of the belief that the majority of what we believe is nudity is actually a cleverly fashioned body stocking (as in most of the Salomes you would swear are done in the buff).
But to answer the original question: If it is done with taste and true purpose to the story and not merely to "titillate" (sorry!) you, I see nothing wrong with nudity.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Give me good old fashioned costumes any day of the week.


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## CDs (May 2, 2016)

Oh man! I saw this thread and thought the "n*****" was for the other 'n' word.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

What would Rhinemaidens wear anyway? Seaweed? In Wieland Wagner's second _Ring_ production at Bayreuth they wore body stockings that looked nude. Maybe back in 1965 they felt less self-conscious that way.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Seaweed? This is the Rhine we are talking about, not the North Sea!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I thought you were going to say ***** :lol:
Honestly though, I'm not sure why you felt the need to censor "nudity". that's not a profane word lol.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

In Peter Hall's production at Bayreuth the Rhinemaidens were naked I remember an awful Don Giovanni from ROH where the maid the Don is serenading took all her kit off. Some people thought it was the one bright spot in the awful production! I'm one of those where 'gone the secrecy gone the fascination' so it never does anything for me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Seaweed? This is the Rhine we are talking about, not the North Sea!


OK, algae. ................


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

People would be surprised how much nudity there is in a typical season in a European house. I've no need to be prudish about it, but it often feels gratuitous... and distracts me from the music


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Don Fatale said:


> People would be surprised how much nudity there is in a typical season in a European house. I've no need to be prudish about it, but it often feels gratuitous... and distracts me from the music


Agreed! I was at a West End play where an actress took all her kit off. The fact it had nothing whatever to do with the play made it just embarrassing. I remember a performance of Measure for Measure at the RSC (of all place) where the prisoner came in totally naked. It is a very funny scene but there wasn't a laugh out of the audience as the nudity had killed it. I think everyone was just relieved when the guy got his privates off the stage! :lol:


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I thought you were going to say ***** :lol:
> Honestly though, I'm not sure why you felt the need to censor "nudity". that's not a profane word lol.


In modern times, I think's it's for the sake of clickbait.... :lol:


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2017)

Judging by the clips in the article, the thread title should have been: 'Does pretend nudity have a place in opera?'.

Clickbait indeed. A fuss about nothing.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I checked my calendar... Yes, 2017.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Well, for those who think Rheinmaiden nudity may be gratuitous I wonder if they'd prefer this...

_'I don't necessarily want to create the kind of traditional fantasy that people are accustomed to seeing on stage. I create pictures of a world that we know and we live in.'_ - costume designer Alice Babidge on her designs for the Melbourne Ring of 2013.










Of course, Alice... :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> Well, for those who think Rheinmaiden nudity may be gratuitous I wonder if they'd prefer this...
> 
> _'I don't necessarily want to create the kind of traditional fantasy that people are accustomed to seeing on stage. *I create pictures of a world that we know and we live in.*'_ - costume designer *Alice Babidge* on her designs for the Melbourne Ring of 2013.
> 
> ...


Alice and I clearly live in different worlds.


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## Byron (Mar 11, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Alice and I clearly live in different worlds.


Or Alice here might want to consider a different line of work.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Alice and I clearly live in different worlds.


So you don't live at the Moulin Rouge!



CDs said:


> Oh man! I saw this thread and thought the "n*****" was for the other 'n' word.


I was expecting much worse when I clicked on this thread. But I'm glad the red font isn't needed.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

It's bad enough when latter-day Wotans stomp around the stage looking like Steven Seagal's stunt double but this is surely beyond the pale even for regietheater standards. God only knows how the Valkyries were kitted out.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2017)

Pugg said:


> Give me good old fashioned costumes any day of the week.


exactly


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I worry that singers might catch a cold if they were nude on stage night after night.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Well, for those who think Rheinmaiden nudity may be gratuitous I wonder if they'd prefer this...
> 
> _'I don't necessarily want to create the kind of traditional fantasy that people are accustomed to seeing on stage. I create pictures of a world that we know and we live in.'_ - costume designer Alice Babidge on her designs for the Melbourne Ring of 2013.
> 
> ...


I find what Alice said to be clear. She was not going for dressing the Rhinemaidens in seaweed (or algae, if we want to be less specific) or anything that one would not see in our world. I'm not sure I quite understand picking a showgirl styling for the Rhinemaidens, but it's at least recognizable.

And indeed, the rest of the costuming for the Melbourne Ring Cycle is more or less modern and naturalistic. Their website has quite a few high res photos from the 2016 performances.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Nudity I've seen on the opera stage (that I can recall):

Orlando (Perth) - During the 'mad' scene, our hero rips all his kit off and sit on the front of the stage giving the old ladies in the front row an eyeful while he (figuratively) froths at the mouth. This actually worked surprisingly well due to the acting chops of the gentleman in the role.

In the same opera, Dorinda was dressed as a topless milkmaid. Completely ridiculous! (I actually felt embarrassed for her)

Tristan und Isolde (Oslo) - Throughout the length of the opera, a naked man and woman wandered about the stage, sometimes upstage, sometimes down, sometimes left, sometimes right, sitting, standing, walking, staring, completely mute. To this day I'm not entirely sure what that was all about - perhaps representative of some kind of adam and eve? Again, ridiculous, creepy, and embarrassing. Nothing but a distraction.

Orpheus ed Euridyce (Oslo) - Fake nudity this time. Our version of the opera had the famous Dance of the Furies ballet piece inserted into the second act. The furies writhing and cavorting in obvious, yet anatomically-correct skin suits. It was an impressive scene that worked really well. I would not have been bothered in the slightest had it been actual nudity.

Like other posters have said, the nudity must work to be justified. It has to be relevant to and further the plot. To that end, the only opera I've ever seen where I've been disappointed _not_ to see nudity is Salome.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Let us not forget the line of naked butts standing over urinals in the now famous regi production of _Un Ballo in Maschera _several years ago.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Taplow said:


> Like other posters have said, the nudity must work to be justified. It has to be relevant to and further the plot. To that end, the only opera I've ever seen where I've been disappointed _not_ to see nudity is Salome.


Fortunately most who sing Salome do not go nude ... however I did see Maria Ewing do it nude at Covent Garden. She definitely looks the part from start to end.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Wrong window!.........


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

mountmccabe said:


> I find what Alice said to be clear. She was not going for dressing the Rhinemaidens in seaweed (or algae, if we want to be less specific) or anything that one would not see in our world. I'm not sure I quite understand picking a showgirl styling for the Rhinemaidens, but it's at least recognizable.
> 
> And indeed, the rest of the costuming for the Melbourne Ring Cycle is more or less modern and naturalistic. Their website has quite a few high res photos from the 2016 performances.


*Derailment on regie-theatre:* my favourite pics of that Ring "destruction"


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Becca said:


> *Fortunately most who sing Salome do not go nude* ... however I did see Maria Ewing do it nude at Covent Garden. She definitely looks the part from start to end.


Yes with some of the Salomes the mind would boggle and the theatre would empty in panic! :lol:


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Yes with some of the Salomes the mind would boggle and the theatre would empty in panic! :lol:


I'd watch it. ............


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Becca said:


> Fortunately most who sing Salome do not go nude ... however I did see Maria Ewing do it nude at Covent Garden. She definitely looks the part from start to end.


Me too. It was true coup-de-theatre, and strange to say I think she earned a lot of respect for that reason. As we are in the right era, did you see the infamous bathing beauties with beach balls of Les Huguenots? It was roundly booed and rightly too.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

mountmccabe said:


> I find what Alice said to be clear. She was not going for dressing the Rhinemaidens in seaweed (or algae, if we want to be less specific) or anything that one would not see in our world. I'm not sure I quite understand picking a showgirl styling for the Rhinemaidens, but it's at least recognizable.
> 
> And indeed, the rest of the costuming for the Melbourne Ring Cycle is more or less modern and naturalistic. Their website has quite a few high res photos from the 2016 performances.


I appreciate both your reply and your equanimity. It's too many steps too far for me and I just haven't got the _laissez-faire_ to be doing with it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I would like to see David Hansen nude onstage but it would distract from me paying attention to his great voice. Same with Jonas


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

I have not read all the posts on this thread ‘I’m too ruddy idle’ but the thought of seeing Pavarotti in the all together would not be a pleasant experience for me.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Old man river that old man river, 
he don't plant cotton but don't say nothing
that old man river, he keeps on rollin' along

.....if you don't get reference, good, it's better that way


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Don Fatale said:


> Me too. It was true coup-de-theatre, and strange to say I think she earned a lot of respect for that reason. As we are in the right era, did you see the infamous bathing beauties with beach balls of Les Huguenots? It was roundly booed and rightly too.


Is that the 1991 Berlin "Nazi" production, with Leech?


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

NickFuller said:


> Is that the 1991 Berlin "Nazi" production, with Leech?


Exactly...........


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Yes with some of the Salomes the mind would boggle and the theatre would empty in panic! :lol:


I've watched the dance sequence from the Maria Ewing/Covent Garden SALOME already mentioned. She's not nude until the end of the dance, and even then you only saw her for a few seconds before the lights darkened. Very effective. That said, I personally saw a superb SALOME onstage where the soprano wasn't nude, just "unveiled" (i.e. she wore a short, strappy evening dress under her veils). In sum, I think nudity scenes are okay as long as they're brief and "suggestive" rather than "in your face."


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## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

I want great voices in my opera - I don't actually care what they look like.

But I'd bloody well draw the line at having to see them starkers!


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I'd rather see the operatic n-word as something _suggested_ in opera and not as a literal representation. One can appear nude without being nude in subtle flesh colored apparel. Raw nudity can be an unnecessary distraction. Real _art_ is in suggesting something as an appeal to the imagination rather than spelling it out literally for those who may be short on it. To know that someone is supposed to appear nude without being nude keeps the mind on what the opera is about - and it's not about the nudity or a peep show as a distraction from the vocalizing and story - and there are many imaginative ways that a story can be told, even the shocker _Salome_.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Larkenfield said:


> I'd rather see the operatic n-word as something _suggested_ in opera and not as a literal representation. One can appear nude without being nude in subtle flesh colored apparel. Raw nudity can be an unnecessary distraction. Real _art_ is in suggesting something as an appeal to the imagination rather than spelling it out literally for those who may be short on it. To know that someone is supposed to appear nude without being nude keeps the mind on what the opera is about - and it's not about the nudity or a peep show as a distraction from the vocalizing and story - and there are many imaginative ways that a story can be told, even the shocker _Salome_.


Interesting that the shower scene in Hitchcock's Psycho was done almosT entirely by suggestion. People still stopped taking showers though!


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

I'll just leave this here:


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

^
^

Please don't tell me that's supposed to be a Rhinemaiden?


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

elgars ghost said:


> ^
> ^
> 
> Please don't tell me that's supposed to be a Rhinemaiden?


No, it is an untouched pic of Maria Callas.....wowwww run for the door Dan.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

It is in fact Venus. I guess they've been overindulging a little in the Venusberg lately. Too much Schweinsbraten and Kaiserschmarrn.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> OK, algae. ................


Prymnesium parvum - Golden Algae


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There was a Ring in the 1990s at Covent Garden by Richard Jones which had nude maidens I think, it's hard to remember and I can't tell easily from the images online.









I also saw a Don Carlos in Berlin with nude people being tortured in the auto-da-fé scene.


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## Timothy (Jul 19, 2017)

If it was standard convention, it might make opera more reasonable to put up with? 

Considering that listening to someone mimicking whale noises for two hours can get tedious very quickly


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I mean, Verdi wrote Aida, so clearly he thought so *shrugs*

..................kidding. calm down


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