# Really good opera singers that you don't particularly like.................



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

for me off the top,

Pavarotti, Domingo, Jessye Norman, Sutherland, Milnes

your turn........if you dare.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Itullian said:


> for me off the top,
> 
> Pavarotti, Domingo, Jessye Norman, Sutherland, Milnes




Noooooooooo!!!

Kaufmann


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

sospiro said:


> Noooooooooo!!!
> 
> Kaufmann


what?? what??


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hmm ... well honestly, although I have and treasure one or maybe two of her recordings, I really don't like Joan Sutherland. Something about her personally just puts me off, dk why.

Actually, the same is true of Anna Moffo. Her Sonnambula - genius. Everything else she did - it's like it's a different singer, to me. ???


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Really well known, and I can appreciate their technical skills, but I can't bear to listen to them:

Pavarotti, Sutherland. I really don't like their voices, and this is compounded by Pavarotti's lack of acting skills and Sutherland's lack of diction (although I make exception for her 1961 Lucia.). Also Birgit Nilsson - sure she can pierce through any orchestra, but then you get this cold metallic sound.

Not so well known but enough to put me off buying their recordings:

Veronica Cangemi (her singing seems so effortful and always on the edge of losing her tone), Yuri Marusin (crying labrador), Beatrice Uria-Monzon and Cristina Gallardo-Domas - (big wobbly harsh voices).


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Perhaps a live performance would be a totally different story but I will have Sutherland over Callas and Nilsson over Flagstad when it comes to CDs.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I like every single snger mentioned so far. They've all made great recordings.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Couchie you have lost your mind.


Personally It took me some time to come around to appreciating Sutherland. Perhaps this was because I am so enamored of Callas. Nevertheless, some recent purchases have led me to a renewed appreciation of her... and "Draculette".


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

I'm not crazy about Maria Callas. I have seen live footage of her and will agree that she was a passionate actress. And her voice is always alive and interesting. At least she sang with conviction. But her voice is just not beautiful to me -- and a beautiful voice is one of my 'must-have's.' If it's not there, it's hard for me to get excited about a performance. I'm also not overly fond of Hildegaard Behrens. While I admire her acting and her sense of rhythm, her voice feels a bit thin to me. She doesn't feel like a full-fledged Wagnerian soprano in the way that Nilsson was.


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Couchie you have lost your mind.
> 
> Personally It took me some time to come around to appreciating Sutherland. Perhaps this was because I am so enamored of Callas. Nevertheless, some recent purchases have led me to a renewed appreciation of her... and "Draculette".


Sutherland's voice isn't the most naturally beautiful. For example, I think the natural beauty of Gheorghiu's voice far exceeds Sutherland's. However, what Sutherland is great at is rhythm, voice control and impeccable coloratura passages. Her singing is also powerful. If you compare Sutherland and Gheorghiu singing the Lucia role, what one finds is that Sutherland's voice is the most fitted for bel canto, and even the technically gifted Gheorghiu doesn't make the role sound very convincing or emotionally subtle. And I say that as an admirer of Gheorghiu's.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yuri Marusin (crying labrador)


:lol:

I've never heard one cry, sort of like at 25 & 40 on here?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Sutherlands voice isn't naturally beautiful... what.






The "poor diction" thing I don't really care about. I don't speak the languages and words in the upper female register are mostly unintelligible anyway.

That said, maybe my opinion will change when I get around to exploring Bel Canto more. That does remind me, Callas' Wagner was terrible.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

i agree with Sutherland...never quite warmed to her voice. Although i have the DVD of her in Australian operas production of Lucia and she was very good i thought. 

Birgitte Nilsson....no doubt a super voice but on recordings i always think it is like cold steel and it turns me off

Jose Carreras.....always sounds like Jose Carreras and not the character he is playing. 

I am not a big fan of the sound/acting ability of Netrebko and Gheorghiu either.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Jonas Kaufmann, Rollando Villazon and Juan Diego Florez.

What these guys have that other great male singers in their golden age didn't have is the physique (is it well written in english? I'm sorry if not, but english isn't my mother language). Nowadays the society (which i agree) cares as much as for the singing as for their appearence. On cannot, in present times, accept a fat Calaf/Radames. But, when it comes to these tenors, their voices stays behind their appearence. On the other hand, Peter Hoffmann in his days as a perfect example. Great voice, great acting, great physique.

Maria Callas' voice is sometimes harsh. But how she stays in character and her voice acts, it's all well worth.

Yashin mentioned Carreras. Great voice before the disease, but i agree with Yashin.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

dionisio said:


> Jonas Kaufmann, Rollando Villazon and Juan Diego Florez.
> 
> What these guys have that other great male singers in their golden age didn't have is the physique (is it well written in english? I'm sorry if not, but english isn't my mother language). Nowadays the society (which i agree) cares as much as for the singing as for their appearence. *On cannot, in present times, accept a fat Calaf/Radames*. But, when it comes to these tenors, their voices stays behind their appearence. On the other hand, Peter Hoffmann in his days as a perfect example. Great voice, great acting, great physique.


Yes. Yes one does.

And what do you mean that their voices stay behind their appearance?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> :lol:
> 
> I've never heard one cry, sort of like at 25 & 40 on here?


Think the labrador sounds better, more resonance.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Yes. Yes one does.
> 
> And what do you mean that their voices stay behind their appearance?


Opera has a performance art flies away from reality, as we know. For example Salomé rarely is sung by a 16 year old girl or Butterfly isn't 15 or Minnie, when sung by an old soprano, looks strange when she says she's never been kissed. But no problem, once the music,libretto and singing provide us the material.

But Opera has been through times also always changing. In 18th century, according to the avaible sources, singers (mainly castati) performed as statue-like or god-like figures in their arias. Whatever the main reasons were (there's plenty debate in litterature), the fact is that opera seria was severely criticized because of the artificiallity. In the 19th century, great figures of the Opera (Wagner and Verdi) were sometimes unpleased with the singers (I think for Wanger it was never enough hehehe) acting though their beautiful voices (sometimes not even that). So Opera, in every aspect of it, needed to evolve.

In the 20th century, with the development of cinema and new advances in stage performing (like Stanislavski's method for example) brought more reality to us. Opera didn't (or shouldn't) ignore its potential. Shouldn't the reality of the performance be included in the Gesamkunstwerk phillosophy?

Also we live (unfortunately or not) in a society where physical appearence has an important status. I do not believe that everybody (generally speaking) like Anna Netrebko simply for her voice. Her looks is very suitable for Violletta for example. On the other hand, we can find on youtube an old Sutherland as a naive Gilda. The voice is great (no need to say this). Nevertheless it is difficult to look at a Gilda older than Rigoletto.

Thus between Pavarotti or Franco Bonisolli as Radamés, i see the later easily going to battle against the ethiopians. And i'm not considering their voices (altough Bonisolli is the man!)

I hope i had been able to justify what i wrote and i present my apollogies if i have driven from the main discussion of this topic.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Sure, your looks vs. voice argument is perfectly valid, and to a certain extent I agree with it, but I don't think that it's that relevant to this thread. What I menat to ask you was why you don't like Jonas Kaufmann, Rolando Villazón and Juan Diego Flórez. 

And this is a perfectly good time to resurrect the old voice vs. looks thread lurking around somewhere.


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## SnowMaiden (Jul 29, 2012)

From the very beginning I was really suspicious of Callas and was wondering why everybody is so mad about her. I don't like her voice texture and can do nothing with it especially at low and middle notes though I really confess that she is a great singer and performer.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Sure, your looks vs. voice argument is perfectly valid, and to a certain extent I agree with it, but I don't think that it's that relevant to this thread. What I menat to ask you was why you don't like Jonas Kaufmann, Rolando Villazón and Juan Diego Flórez.
> 
> And this is a perfectly good time to resurrect the old voice vs. looks thread lurking around somewhere.


I don't like their voices aestheticly. Their timbre isn't beautiful as Algana's for me. Also most of what i listen (from the internet sources. I choose not to acquire recordings of them), their voice seemed somtimes "forced". The sound does not come as natural as i prefer. This may not make much sense, but i don't know how to say in english.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Aksel said:


> Sure, your looks vs. voice argument is perfectly valid, and to a certain extent I agree with it, but I don't think that it's that relevant to this thread. What I menat to ask you was why you don't like Jonas Kaufmann, Rolando Villazón and Juan Diego Flórez.
> 
> And this is a perfectly good time to resurrect the old *voice vs. looks thread* lurking around somewhere.


Are you thinking of this one?


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

This is one subject where I think we just agree to disagree. Kaufmann and Milnes are two of my favorite singers, but I know they're not everyone's cup of tea. People have different tastes in voices just as we have different tastes in food. I can't stand Brussels sprouts, but that doesn't mean I think there's anything wrong with someone who likes them. I like shrimp; my sister can't stomach them -- and, so far, she hasn't questioned my sanity. (At least not about my food preferences.):lol:


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

I have to disagree on Kaufmann aswell, I think he is an exceptionally talented singer, although I do feel he has a very dark timbre. i look forward to hearing him in the main Wagner tenor roles like Tristan and eventually Siegfried. I'm a big fan

One singer I just don't get is Schwarzkopf. For me there is nothing at all remarkable about her and I can't help but feel that she got to where she got on account of who she was married to. I admittedly haven't listened to her alot (my experience of her is down to her Vier Lezte Lieder, Dido & Aeneas, Verdi's Requiem and various Mahler and Brahms recordings) but I don't find any real desire to explore her more.

Pavarotti is another one. Yes, beautiful voice, but there's absolutely nothing about it that excites me.

Finally, I'm not overly fond of Leontyne Price. It's taken me a long time to decide one way or the other, and I used to enjoy listening to her, but the more opera I've listened to, the more I actually find her unpleasant to listen to


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

dionisio said:


> I don't like their voices aestheticly. Their timbre isn't *beautiful as Algana's *for me. Also most of what i listen (from the internet sources. I choose not to acquire recordings of them), their voice seemed somtimes "forced". The sound does not come as natural as i prefer. This may not make much sense, but i don't know how to say in english.


Ok. I just think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Alagna is probably my least favourite singer ever.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Ok. I just think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Alagna is probably my least favourite singer ever.


Schön!  I like the voice, not the atittude.

However, i prefer listenning singers who, unfortunately, are no longer with us. I admit my error here but some of the mainstream singers today don't get to me to all.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Pavarotti, although I love him in certain things (Requiem, Turandot) as long as I don't have to watch him. Can you believe him he's a starving poet?
Jon Vickers is a strange case since I LOVE him in Wagner roles but his Grimes chews the scenery like there's no tomorrow. Not to mention how much I hate big, metallic Heldentenors in that role. Grimes is not Tristan.
Ruggero Raimondi. Where do I even begin. Mediocre voice, wooden acting, spits a lot, worst Don Giovanni, can't decide if he's a bass or a baritone, and ruined TWO Tosca movies by being in them. Oh, and ugly. The only thing where I found him surprisingly good was the Carmen movie.
Hans-Peter König. I have heard him in the radio a lot and never liked his voice. I don't understand why is he Hagen everywhere when you have Salminen, Halfvarson, Tomlinson, Silvestrelli, and you could have Clive Bayley (not sure is he sings Hagen but he definitely could rock it).
Hildegard Behrens. Her voice was simply too small for Wagner (and too cold for Italian roles). 
Philip Ens. He's an eye candy and a good actor but his voice is nowhere near basso profondo. Why he sings roles like Fafner or Claggart I can't even. He would be excellent in "lighter" roles like Leporello, Figaro or maybe even Mephisto, but these heavy bass roles are definitely not for him.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Got another one for my list - Alfredo Kraus. At first I thought it was because I was hearing him past his prime, so I searched out earlier stuff, and I still don't like his voice.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Sieglinde said:


> Pavarotti, although I love him in certain things (Requiem, Turandot) as long as I don't have to watch him. Can you believe him he's a starving poet?


Pavarotti is to my years THE Rodolfo (and Nemorino). On the other hand, not a good Calaf. Wonderful lyric tenor, but his dramatic roles (Calaf, Cavaradossi, etc.) weren't his best.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Got another one for my list - Alfredo Kraus. At first I thought it was because I was hearing him past his prime, so I searched out earlier stuff, and I still don't like his voice.


What i love most about Kraus is his dictation and pianissimos. His Faust (Gonoud) is my favorite version.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

dionisio said:


> What i love most about Kraus is his dictation and pianissimos. His Faust (Gonoud) is my favorite version.


For me it's not a question of technique. Singers can have a good technique but I might still not like the timbre of their voice. It's purely a question of personal taste.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

SnowMaiden said:


> From the very beginning I was really suspicious of Callas and was wondering why everybody is so mad about her. I don't like her voice texture and can do nothing with it especially at low and middle notes though I really confess that she is a great singer and performer.


I don't see how you can criticise Callas so thoroughly and then go on to say she was a great singer.
In fact she was a great performer but a lousy singer---it really depends on what you are looking for in an operatic performance.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

dionisio said:


> What i love most about Kraus is his dictation and pianissimos. His Faust (Gonoud) is my favorite version.


You should listen to Leopold Simoneau singing Faust---or anything else for that matter.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

SnowMaiden said:


> From the very beginning I was really suspicious of Callas and was wondering why everybody is so mad about her. I don't like her voice texture and can do nothing with it especially at low and middle notes though I really confess that she is a great singer and performer.


That's just how I feel about Kaufmann. I _know_ he's fabulous singer but for some reason, I don't like him.



moody said:


> I don't see how you can criticise Callas so thoroughly and then go on to say she was a great singer.
> In fact she was a great performer but a lousy singer---it really depends on what you are looking for in an operatic performance.


I think SnowMaiden is responding to the question in the thread title. She accepts Callas is a great singer but doesn't like her.

It's a mystery why some of us don't like great singers but some voices, even though they're not "great", touch us on an emotional level.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Great singers I don't like, strictly a matter of my personal taste.

Jessye Norman. Looks like she is trying to eat the earth on those high notes, which are nonetheless often below pitch. I wish she had sung mezzo.

James McCracken. I sang with him in the chorus of Dallas Opera many years ago and he was an enormous man who wore a girdle underneath all the other costume (he was Radames in Aida) for support. It didn't help. If he went flat he stayed flat, which he did by a whole tone in "Celeste Aida." Stayed flat until the end, ringing A-flat high note, orchestra in proper B-flat. Even when he was on pitch it's an ugly tone.

Cornell MacNeil. Similar reasons, simply an unappealing vocal timbre although I think he was a superior musician to McCracken. But that wide open tone above the staff is a turnoff. And would you close your MOUTH once in a while please?

Hildegard Behrens never did a lot for me. Eva Marton, scream city.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

moody said:


> I don't see how you can criticise Callas so thoroughly and then go on to say she was a great singer.
> In fact she was a great performer but a lousy singer---it really depends on what you are looking for in an operatic performance.


Oh no - Callas was clearly an agent of the Illuminati. It's all there in the libretto.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

moody said:


> I don't see how you can criticise Callas so thoroughly and then go on to say she was a great singer.
> In fact she was a great performer* but a lousy singer*---it really depends on what you are looking for in an operatic performance.


She has manged to fool quite a few opera fanatics (me included) with that lousy singing technique......

I don't outright dislike any of the great singers "in thier prime vocal years"
but some have performed longer than than they should have because they were famous and had many fans even though vocally they were way below thier high standards.

Sutherland comes to mind immediately in late 1950s and 1960s was doing great work but by 1980s voice/diction had become noticeably compromised


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

moody said:


> I don't see how you can criticise Callas so thoroughly and then go on to say she was a great singer.
> In fact she was a great performer but a lousy singer---it really depends on what you are looking for in an operatic performance.


Congratulations for the most absurd statement I have ever seen on this board.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Oh no - Callas was clearly an agent of the Illuminati. It's all there in the libretto.


I don't understand any of that--say again.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Barelytenor said:


> Congratulations for the most absurd statement I have ever seen on this board.


Thanks for that ! Are you going to explain yourself or would that be too difficult?


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Helga Dernesch. She sounds like mud.

I suspect she's one of the most overrated sopranos in history. I attribute this to people's inclination to find perfection in what is already superb. No one wants to admit that recording with the greatest Tristan on (full) record is marred by a poor partner and atrocious conducting.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

moody said:


> Thanks for that ! Are you going to explain yourself or would that be too difficult?


Nothing personal, mate. I'm talking about you calling her a "lousy singer." In her prime at least, she could sing anything, coloratura, dramatic soprano, lyric roles of piteous intensity, there was never anyone who can single out a word or phrase and make it her own better than Callas. No she did not have a perfect instrument, but what she did with it was a triumph of spirit and genius, showing incredible musicality and interpretive genius. For me and many others I'm sure, she is still the best singer ever to trot the boards.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

moody said:


> I don't understand any of that--say again.


joke - probably not a very good one


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

moody said:


> I don't see how you can criticise Callas so thoroughly and then go on to say she was a great singer.
> In fact she was a great performer but a *lousy singer*---it really depends on what you are looking for in an operatic performance.


Heh, yeah, no. Fair enough that you don't like her voice, but she was certainly one of the most technically accomplished voices of her time, if not all time.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Aksel said:


> Heh, yeah, no. Fair enough that you don't like her voice, but she was certainly one of the most technically accomplished voices of her time, if not all time.


On the contrary and that is the problem.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

callas was the greatest. technically and feelings wise. awesome range and lived the role


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

moody said:


> On the contrary and that is the problem.


Pray explain further.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

fwiw, my favorite Faust is Gedda.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

SOSPIRO.
I think that is what I was more or less saying
DARK ANGEL. 
As you say she has fooled a good few opera FANATICS, but looking at your avatar we cant expect a particularly unbiased opinion.

I've opened a can of worms and although I have wanted to have a go at the Callas legend on TC I copped out because I knew what the comeback would be.
St.Luke's will arrive on the warpath at any moment !
Somebody on another current thread spoke of perceived fame and that is what has happened here .
An opera is different from a stage play and although there are some similarities in many peoples opinion the singing is paramount. I would rather have great singing and poor acting than the reverse.
Also most people are listening to opera on record and very few get to the opera house when the great ones are singing because of cost aloneThere is no doubt that Callas was very exciting to watch. I saw her Tosca with Tito Gobbi (he was the best Scarpia, to answer another thread) which to my surprise is not available on DVD.
How many times have you heard, "well of course Callas was the greatest", so it is passed down from generation to generation.
Probably by the same people who say that Lesli Garrett is the UK's greatest diva, and that Russell Watson and Catherine Jenkins are opera singers.
Now, she died in 1977 and stopped performing well before that so most TC members cannot have seen her in the flesh.
So she is a mysterious phantom to them and so will only have her recorded legacy to judge. Let's get away from the fanatics and listen to the experts.

Philip Hope-Wallace was probably the greatest opera critic and this is what he said of her Covent Garden Norma in 1957 when she was only 35.
"Mme Callas delighted everyone except those who find their admiration for her magnificent and flamboyant assumption of the role constantly disconcerted by faults of vocal emission.....visually she is magnificent ... and yet those with critical ears can scarcely fool themselves that she was not often singing sharp....that her tutta forza was invariably sour and that her climatic high notes often developed a ragging beat like the sound of a plank being sawn. Moreover the actual timbre of of the voice often sounded nasal and 'blocked'.....free emission was simply not in evidence. But such is her witchcraft that one was utterly resigned to including her second scene of Act 2 among the supreme experiences of opera."

But that was on stage, on record all those faults are self evident.

"Tosca" 1964. "She is Tosca" macaw squawks and all ".
"Norma", 1952--she was only 30
"Yet the flawless vocal emission which is the cardinal quality called for in this exposed and perilous role was not vouchsafed, the voice is uneven , some things such as the gliding runs in the first scene and the attacked high notes in the second were dazzling and amazed the audience. But the voice did not ride the the big final ensemble as it should, much of the proper resonance was boxed in and uncomfortable.....I cannot feel that she is a plausible Norma.

John Steane, "The Grand Tradition".
"...what has notably changed is the state of the voice , which by 1960 (age 38) has developed its unsteadiness to an uncomfortable degree. In the Covent Garden (live) performance as recorded (somewhat toplessly it must be said) the beat is noticeable only on a few high notes,and the same is true of her first studio performance,,,,but development during Callas's years of supremacy appears,,,to have been a matter of the deteriation of the voice rather than the further deepening of of an already profound interpretation ".

Charles Osborne "Opera On Record". re:"Lucia di Lammermoor".
I have always found Callas's vocal failings a great stumbling block, especially in the bel canto operas which she sang in the earlier part of her career. Callas was convincing in the theatre in roles which the gramophone often tended cruelly to expose her , on disc she she is totally inadequate or at times excruciating".

Here is a revealling story, I had a neighbour who was keen to learn more about classical music. One day he asked me whether I had any recorda by that Maria Callas. So i played him an aria, at the end of it he said :"Oh dear , that poor lady, something is wrong with her voice".
In Rossini's "Cenerentola" aria 'Nacqui all'affano' (rec.1965)she starts off unsteadily, gradually gets caught up rather like a fly in a web ,things then get completely out of hand and she finishes with a despairing shriek.
Contrast this with Conchita Supervia's version, she appears to play with the aria as she has such complete control, she was rather similar to Callas in sensuality and temperament. But her singing is true coloratura and bel canto which is sadly lacking in Callas.
I cannot listen to Callas at all now, but I can watch her at any time. Unfortunately, all these faults are on record,literally, for all to hear.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

moody said:


> SOSPIRO.
> I think that is what I was more or less saying
> DARK ANGEL.
> As you say she has fooled a good few opera FANATICS, but looking at your avatar we cant expect a particularly unbiased opinion.
> ...


It is probably a* good contrary sign of greatness* that some of the professional "opera critics" are appalled by flawed singing of the squawking macaw Callas since they are agents of conformity and will naturally be critical of someone who is different from thier rigid norms and achieving "undeserved" praise and public recognition, Tebaldi is an example of beautiful even toned voice that meets the critics conventional ideal

*A better reference* (if we need any reassurance) is what other great opera singers of her time and now say about her, I think it is quite different from those comments, the recent Gheorghiu Callas Homage CD set one example

*Still I understand if people find her vocals strange, imperfect or unconventional*, they are unique and perhaps polarizing but if you come to embrace the Callas sound you hear things no other singer can reveal, a rare assoluta soprano who sang the most challenging Italian bel canto roles and her ability to electrify an audience is almost unrivaled. :angel:

*
About my avatar* (shhhhhh, don't tell anyone I am a Callas fan)


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

It took me a while to get used to Callas but I've come to appreciate her alot.

I was born 6 years after she died so would obvipusly have nothing but her recorded legacy to go on, other than a few live clips from later in her career when she had that pronounced wobble. But in her earlier recordings she was great.

For me, there are 2 reasons she is so controversial a singer.

The first is because she had superb technique and was extremely musical, yet she did not have a beautiful voice by any means. This may be an odd comparison, but I liken her to Billie Holiday in that neither had a naturally great voice, it was their technique that made them great

The second is that she is widely regarded as the greatest - that in itself will generate enough controversy about her.

Anyway, back on topic for me, Corelli is another singer I dont have much time for. He doesn't do subtle very well, there's more to singing than big high notes and showing up your singing partners


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

AndyS said:


> Anyway, back on topic for me, Corelli is another singer I dont have much time for. He doesn't do subtle very well, there's more to singing than big high notes and showing up your singing partners


Yes, I entirely agree. I find him an unregenerate show-off, and I hate ungenerous performers.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DARK ANGEL.

You apparently did not read my piece carefully enough. The critics quoted--among the most highly regarded in the world, look them up, were certainly not " agents of conformity" (how laughable). But in any case were all in unison regarding her magnetism and her brilliance as an artist.
My purpose was to shed a bit of light on the truth behind the legend. It certainly was not to turn anyone against Callas, but to make them listen and compare.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> Helga Dernesch. She sounds like mud.
> 
> I suspect she's one of the most overrated sopranos in history. I attribute this to people's inclination to find perfection in what is already superb. No one wants to admit that recording with the greatest Tristan on (full) record is marred by a poor partner and atrocious conducting.


On the other hand, I think Dernesch's husband, the tenor Werner Krenn, was extremely underrated. His voice had a beautiful lyric timbre and he was a superb Mozartean stylist. He made several recordings with Joan Sutherland and Richard Bonynge -- _Don Giovanni _was one of them -- but then he seemed to confine himself mainly to concert work and, after a time, just seemed to fade away. A real pity, since I would have much rather listened to him than Peter Schreier on so many recordings from the '70s and '80s.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I like most singers I've heard, past and present. Here a few that I just can't "get into" (oddly enough, they're mostly men):

Leonard Warren. I can tell he was a very great baritone and that his voice was impressive in its size. But to my ears (I'm talking about recordings here, as he was WAY before my time), his voice lacked firmness and incisiveness; it also seemed to lack that lighter, flexible quality that many big voices _do_ have. And, along with this, he sounds to have been a very phlegmatic interpreter.

Ettore Bastianinni: Another impressive baritone voice, but to me he sounds totally uninvolved in the drama (I'm referring to the famous "live" La Scala recording of LA TRAVIATA with Callas in which he sang Germont). He also tended to aspirate, which for me is a total turn-off.

Licia Albanese: Something about her voice-character sounds "elderly" to me (and I'm talking about recordings made when she was a young woman). The tone itself is nice, but the "character" of the voice sounds unsuitable for roles like Violetta and Desdemona.

Simone Alaimo: Has, or had, a nice bass-baritone voice, but he's _such_ a hammy actor, and he couldn't seem to do patter to save his life -- yet he sang buffo roles. During the late 1990's/early 2000's there were two Met broadcasts of LA CENERENTOLA with him as Don Magnifico. On _both_ occasions (_and_ the telecast) he simply mumbled his way through the patter passages; it sounded like he was just making up nonesense words. It was really bad.

Rockwell Blake: Astonishing coloratura ability but a strained-sounding, "hard" timbre.

Roberto Alagna: I've just never liked him. His voice is fine (if dry, at least to my ears), yet I find him unappealing for some reason I can't put my finger on.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

sospiro said:


> Kaufmann


Hahahaha! I love how you did that so subtly :lol:


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

OK, my list... 

Florez, Alagna, Hampson, Giordani and Zancanaro.

It's just something about their output that doesn't move me. All great singers, but when I see opera I've got to feel _something _otherwise it's a bit of a pointless exercise. For me, at least.

Oh, and Fischer-Dieskau.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Do you like Traviata? I thought Hampson and Fischer-Dieskau both did amazing Germonts. Now, I've heard that F-D did it different every time, and I know Hampson does, so you've got to listen to the right recording.

This one for Hampson:









This one for F-D:









(Of course, if you've already tried these, there's not much more to be said!)


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, that was weird.... ...


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

If I'm being honest, I much prefer Hampson when he doesn't to Verdi. His art song rep is fine - but then art song/lieder isn't really my cup of tea. As for Fischer-Dieskau... I'd rather not get started. 



guythegreg said:


> Do you like Traviata? I thought Hampson and Fischer-Dieskau both did amazing Germonts. Now, I've heard that F-D did it different every time, and I know Hampson does, so you've got to listen to the right recording.
> 
> This one for Hampson:
> 
> ...


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

our of curiosity, what is the problem with F-D? I personally like him a lot and can't see what's wrong.

(I also like Bastianini, mentioned up-thread).


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

deggial said:


> our of curiosity, what is the problem with F-D? I personally like him a lot and can't see what's wrong.


I think it's just down to personal taste.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

yes, but what is it exactly that bothers you? I'm curious to see how others perceive him.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

Lauritz Melchior...
Gwyneth Jones...
Eva Marton...


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

deggial said:


> yes, but what is it exactly that bothers you? I'm curious to see how others perceive him.


The trouble with discussing taste is that it usually opens a can of worms of conflicting opinions :lol:

But OK. My opinion is that I don't think he had the right sound for Italian opera and he should never have attempted stuff like Wotan (a lyric baritone doing a bass-baritone role...?). At times, I find that he did a lot of hoarse shouting rather than tasteful singing in rep he should have stayed away from. Sure, I respect his enormous back-catalog of German lieder - I just find him overall too controlled and predictable (and thereby boring) when he does it.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Zabirilog said:


> Lauritz Melchior...
> Gwyneth Jones...
> Eva Marton...


I've never heard Melchior criticised ,he was the greatest heldentenor ever.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I believe Thomas Hampson was a great Germont. I heard him in that role on the radio circa 2001, and I saw him when Renee Fleming sang Act II as part of a gala that was telecast in 2007 or so. I believe he is/was generally a good Verdi singer; it probably depends on the aria or role. I've got a recording of him singing one of my favorite Verdi baritone arias, "Lina, pensai ch'un angelo" from STIFFELIO, and think he sings it very well. He doesn't have the haunting sound of Vladimir Chernov (whom you can see on Youtube), but still he sings beautifully. He also does a fine job with the baritone aria from ERNANI, I think because the aria has a pretty limited range and because something about his persona seems to fit the character well.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

I don't know about you guys, but I'm glad we can prefer and love different singers. Imagine if we all just loved Björling, Hines and Flagstad and nobody else - that wouldn't leave much room for anyone else trying to get our attention :cheers:


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Operafocus said:


> The trouble with discussing taste is that it usually opens a can of worms of conflicting opinions :lol:


you can come out from behind the couch, I'm pretty laid back about these things (with a few exceptions, but I know myself enough not to engage in disputes over those few exceptions  unless it's on youtube...). Thanks for elaborating on it. I'm surprised you find him controlled (that would be a big no-no for lieder, isn't it? or maybe you're only thinking about that in regards to Italian opera), but, like you said, tastes differ.

ps: what I like best with him is his vocal timbre. I feel there is so much emotion coming through (true lyric singer!) that he doesn't need to _do_ much.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

deggial said:


> I'm surprised you find him controlled (that would be a big no-no for lieder, isn't it? or maybe you're only thinking about that in regards to Italian opera), but, like you said, tastes differ.


I'll give you a similar example. I saw a lieder recital some time ago with a baritone (who adores F-D and has a similar sound). He has - I'll admit - a very good voice and a very solid technique. The trouble was that after about 20 minutes I just about passed out from boredom. You could tell he was analyzing every little note that came out of his mouth, so it was all technique and no feeling. When it comes to F-D I won't claim that I've listened to him extensively, but I did spend a few hours on YouTube after I heard a couple of baritones calling him the best thing since sliced cheese. I guess I just don't "get it". Some singers just hit you where it hurts and some don't, for whatever reason. For me, opera is about _feeling_. If I don't feel anything, it's just pointless. Nothing against him personally, he just doesn't "do it" for me, I guess :lol:


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Operafocus said:


> *Some singers just hit you where it hurts and some don't*, for whatever reason. For me, opera is about *feeling*. If I don't feel anything, it's just pointless.


agreed on that. It's funny arguing over the same singer, looking for the same thing and not seeing the same thing at the same time  so much for objectivity! I too am stumped by a number of big names that sound either dull or plain awful to me whist I've heard some of my favourites being called every name in the book and to me they sound like pure perfection... sometimes I argue out of a chivalrous impulse, I guess, to defend their honour  but it is pointless.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

deggial said:


> sometimes I argue out of a chivalrous impulse, I guess, to defend their honour  but it is pointless.


You and me both! :lol: I don't so much anymore, but I've had arguments with trolls on YouTube in the past lol.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

May I offer an adjunct to the original thread post title, "Really good opera singers [whom] you don't really like" and saw most responses as "This singer is supposed to be good but I don't think he/she is because..." but that contradicts the "really good" premise.

So, let me ask you to consider the question as posed this way instead (and as I originally thought the gist of the thread in the first place):

"_Opera singers who were (or are) superb singers but whom you don't like as real off-stage people._"

In other words, prima donnas (female and male) in the worst possible way or, in short, jerks. (As with, for example, for movie personalities, Jim Carrey.)

But honestly, I don't know enough about the stars' personalities to form a good opinion. I do know that some have said that Pavarotti hogged the stage too much and in recitals and concerts, vocally shoved around newcomer singers, and I did seem to pick up on that occasionally from various TV appearances. Others however have said he gave plenty of boosting to young performers. So I don't know.

I've got negative opinions on a few people with whom I performed but I really don't wish to be too specific, other than a particular Commendatore (in Don Giovanni) who, although a pretty nice guy in general, was sadly a drunk and his offstage antics (most not funny) and his onstage screwups were pretty bothersome.

So, perhaps a bit of thread drift here?


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

katdad said:


> "_Opera singers who were (or are) superb singers but whom you don't like as real off-stage people _


Most won´t have anything but hear-say to go by when it comes to how people are off-stage. Some will have brief, personal experiences with people at the stage door or at a random run-in, but that could be caused by a bad day or a momentary crisis (if the experience is bad, I mean). As far as I´m concerned, as long as someone sounds good on stage, I don´t give _much _of a $%&# what they´re _really like_. Besides, no matter how much someone´s acting, glimpses of who they are will always shine through. If someone´s a rotten, soulless ****, chances are that beauty, heart and soul won´t be coming out of their mouths along with the notes they sing. When someone does what they do best, and put their whole into it, they can´t hide - no matter how much make-up they´ve got on. At least that´s my experience.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

deggial said:


> you can come out from behind the couch, I'm pretty laid back about these things (with a few exceptions, but I know myself enough not to engage in disputes over those few exceptions  unless it's on youtube...). Thanks for elaborating on it. I'm surprised you find him controlled (that would be a big no-no for lieder, isn't it? or maybe you're only thinking about that in regards to Italian opera), but, like you said, tastes differ.
> 
> ps: what I like best with him is his vocal timbre. I feel there is so much emotion coming through (true lyric singer!) that he doesn't need to _do_ much.


DFD suffered from the same problem that besets Schwarzkopf particularly in lieder.
They were both too clever by half,on top of that we have her mewling and squeaking and his blustering and breaking the line at every dramatic chance.He hadn't in fact got a very attractive voice at all and he should have controlled the over emotional approach. You say that there is so much emotion coming through that he didn't have to do much ,with respect that statement doesn't seem to add up. 
We've been through all this before and we know that Schubert made it plain that he didn't want his lieder "interpreted " by the singer.
If you want to hear the true art of lieder singing go to Karl Erb, Gerard Souzay,Aksel Schiotz or Hans Hotter.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

moody said:


> *He hadn't in fact got a very attractive voice* at all and he should have controlled the over emotional approach. You say that there is so much emotion coming through that he didn't have to do much ,with respect that statement doesn't seem to add up.


opinions, opinions. I like overly emotional singers.



> We've been through all this before and we know that Schubert made it plain that he didn't want his lieder "interpreted " by the singer.


what Schbuert wanted stopped mattering when he put his music out there  if I like the interpretation, I like it.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

deggial said:


> opinions, opinions. I like overly emotional singers.
> 
> what Schbuert wanted stopped mattering when he put his music out there  if I like the interpretation, I like it.


Well in that case it's probably not worth you getting into debates at all.
When I was very young I went around telling eveyrone that Mario Lanza was the greatest tenor ever forget Caruso and Gigli.
I've changed my mind now--it's called growing up and learning.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Operafocus wrote:

*Besides, no matter how much someone´s acting, glimpses of who they are will always shine through. If someone´s a rotten, soulless ****, chances are that beauty, heart and soul won´t be coming out of their mouths along with the notes they sing. When someone does what they do best, and put their whole into it, they can´t hide - no matter how much make-up they´ve got on. At least that´s my experience.*

I've always believed this strongly. I think everything you say here is very true.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> Operafocus wrote:
> 
> *Besides, no matter how much someone´s acting, glimpses of who they are will always shine through. If someone´s a rotten, soulless ****, chances are that beauty, heart and soul won´t be coming out of their mouths along with the notes they sing. When someone does what they do best, and put their whole into it, they can´t hide - no matter how much make-up they´ve got on. At least that´s my experience.*
> 
> I've always believed this strongly.  I think everything you say here is very true.


No offence but that is kind of dumb (in my opinion).

You're basically implying that a nasty soulless *** can't communicate any feeling... not true, being able to act is a natural talent, one doesn't have to be a beautiful human being. Its also a myth that being able to relate to and feel the emotions as you sing it somehow makes for a better performance, I was very disappointed with Angela Gheorghiu's acting performance as Tosca despite her going on about how much she relates to the role and feels the emotion of the music.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

Jobis said:


> No offence but that is kind of dumb (in my opinion).
> 
> You're basically implying that a nasty soulless *** can't communicate any feeling... not true, being able to act is a natural talent, one doesn't have to be a beautiful human being. Its also a myth that being able to relate to and feel the emotions as you sing it somehow makes for a better performance, I was very disappointed with Angela Gheorghiu's acting performance as Tosca despite her going on about how much she relates to the role and feels the emotion of the music.


I like how one can say whatever one wants as long as one starts with "no offense, but..." or "this is nothing personal, but..." Seriously tho, none taken 

I didn't say that a rotten soulless *** can't communicate feelings. I said that "_glimpses of who they are will always shine through_". Any idiot (most, anyway) can fake an emotion or three - but in the long run, how convincingly? It can be something as simple as how they react to colleagues onstage. If someone makes a mistake, do they send them an evil glare or do they do their best to help? I've seen both. Once where a non-verbal "you dumb-***" was conveyed when a mistake was made - another where someone forgot their first line, panicking, and a colleague caught their eye and mimed it discreetly to them. Things you notice if you _look closer_.



Jobis said:


> Its also a myth that being able to relate to and feel the emotions as you sing it somehow makes for a better performance


It often does, in my opinion, but on the other hand it's worth mentioning that just because someone a nice/emotional person doesn't mean they're automatically a good actor/actress.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Operafocus said:


> Once where a non-verbal "you dumb-***" was conveyed when a mistake was made - another where someone forgot their first line, panicking, and a colleague caught their eye and mimed it discreetly to them. Things you notice if you _look closer_.


but here we've got the relationship between the singers. I've done both (in my line of work, mind, not on stage), so what would you say I am?


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

deggial said:


> but here we've got the relationship between the singers. I've done both (in my line of work, mind, not on stage), so what would you say I am?


As I've not witnessed your situation/s, I wouldn't say you're anything, really. When I _do_ witness, say, unnecessarily unhelpful behaviour, what I'd think of it would depend on whether the offender makes a habit of belittling people for their mistakes or if they're usually inclined to be helpful. Anyone can have a bad day but I'd say persistent rotten and impatient attitude towards others is a sign of _something_


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Operafocus said:


> I like how one can say whatever one wants as long as one starts with "no offense, but..." or "this is nothing personal, but..." Seriously tho, none taken
> 
> I didn't say that a rotten soulless *** can't communicate feelings. I said that "_glimpses of who they are will always shine through_". Any idiot (most, anyway) can fake an emotion or three - but in the long run, how convincingly? It can be something as simple as how they react to colleagues onstage. If someone makes a mistake, do they send them an evil glare or do they do their best to help? I've seen both. Once where a non-verbal "you dumb-***" was conveyed when a mistake was made - another where someone forgot their first line, panicking, and a colleague caught their eye and mimed it discreetly to them. Things you notice if you _look closer_.
> 
> It often does, in my opinion, but on the other hand it's worth mentioning that just because someone a nice/emotional person doesn't mean they're automatically a good actor/actress.


Fair enough, you give a well reasoned argument.

I still think the correlation between good performance and good person is too weak to be declared as some absolute.

Another relevant example is the film west side story, really great dynamic between the two leads Tony and Maria, but it has been stated that the two did not get on at all off-screen. Natalie Wood was reportedly a bit of a shut-in who was quite cold and rude to the rest of the cast. I don't get any impression of that from watching the film, however.

I kind of agree with you though, still I enjoy a good discussion.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Operafocus said:


> Anyone can have a bad day but I'd say persistent rotten and impatient attitude towards others is a sign of _something_


indigestion? need for the toilet?  all right, if it's persistent then there might be something.

was the offender F-D? kidding.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

katdad said:


> May I offer an adjunct to the original thread post title, "Really good opera singers [whom] you don't really like" and saw most responses as "This singer is supposed to be good but I don't think he/she is because..." but that contradicts the "really good" premise.
> 
> So, let me ask you to consider the question as posed this way instead (and as I originally thought the gist of the thread in the first place):
> 
> "_Opera singers who were (or are) superb singers but whom you don't like as real off-stage people._"


Well, I try to stay away from questions about "who people are really". That is all kind of pointless, I think. How much of a prima donna this one or that one is - I wouldn't claim it's completely immaterial but it bothers me to even think about it, like I'm getting sucked willy nilly back into high school. I think as adults such things should be beneath us. They're not - they're not beneath me - but I feel like they should be and would like to imagine they are. So I don't like talking about it.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Jobis said:


> No offence but that is kind of dumb (in my opinion).
> 
> You're basically implying that a nasty soulless *** can't communicate any feeling... not true, being able to act is a natural talent, one doesn't have to be a beautiful human being. Its also a myth that being able to relate to and feel the emotions as you sing it somehow makes for a better performance, I was very disappointed with Angela Gheorghiu's acting performance as Tosca despite her going on about how much she relates to the role and feels the emotion of the music.


Agree with some points, and some not.

I agree that a callous person with acting skills can portray a wonderful character and there's no way it can be detected. Opera besides, look at WC Fields, a real jerk but who kept people laughing. Other famous stars have been downright reprehensible (need I say John Wilkes Booth?) but were excellent performers.

I do disagree on the other issue. From personal experience, I can state that being "inside" the character, feeling the emotions, and so on, "method" acting, can greatly assist the singer (or actor). It helped me and personal friends in opera would agree. Not a myth. Of course, you don't have to "become" the character if you don't want to.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Sorry to revive this thread, but I've thought of another singer whose acclaim sort of baffles me, and that's the baritone Leo Nucci. It's not that he doesn't/didn't have a good voice; it's that he uses it in what are, to me, annoying ways. For instance, he tends to bark out music rather than sing a _legato_ line, he has a habit of sliding up into notes (he does this _constantly_), and there are times when I'm not sure that he's really singing on pitch. He has sung Verdi for most of his career, but I've always thought his voice too small to be compared with the voices of the classic American Verdi baritones and not elegant enough to be compared with the voices of the classic Italian Verdi baritones like de Luca and Bruson.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Have you seen his Macbeth with Shirley Verrett as Lady M? I thought that was a pretty amazing performance, and a pretty amazing film. Voice-over by Sam Ramey as Banquo, too! (Does the amazingness NEVER STOP?)


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Have you seen his Macbeth with Shirley Verrett as Lady M? I thought that was a pretty amazing performance, and a pretty amazing film. Voice-over by Sam Ramey as Banquo, too! (Does the amazingness NEVER STOP?)


I haven't seen it, but I have seen him in a couple of other video performances. He's a fine actor; I'm not disputing that. It's just that his singing has always sounded "neither one thing nor the other" to me. Several reviewers in the _Metropolitan Opera Guide to Recorded Opera_ make the same point about his singing, and I'm afraid I agree with them.


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## Downbeat (Jul 10, 2013)

Itullian said:


> for me off the top,
> 
> Pavarotti, Domingo, Jessye Norman, Sutherland, Milnes
> 
> your turn........if you dare.


I agree...too many famous singers today (and recent) with their abilities blown out of proportion. The singers you mention are good, but not THAT good from my own perspective.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Downbeat said:


> I agree...too many famous singers today (and recent) with their abilities blown out of proportion. The singers you mention are good, but not THAT good from my own perspective.


I wouldn't say they've had their abilities blown out of proportion. In fact they've all been criticized; everyone has detractors. Personally, I love all the singers Itullian mentioned (except for Jessye Norman, whom I've never heard before, if you can believe that!) You hear them as "not that good," and I hear them as quite exceptionally good. It just goes to show that so much in the arts is subjective, a matter of perception.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Jessye Norman for you:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

deggial said:


> Jessye Norman for you:


Thank you very much for the sample. She's obviously a Strauss soprano, with that radiant top voice.

Incidentally, can you tell me how to post the actual Youtube video on this Forum, as you did? I've never done it before.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Copy the URL of the video you want to post.

Then click on the _film _icon (between the _picture _and _quote _ icons - when you hover over it it says "Insert video". In the dialogue box paste in your URL and click "OK". Voilà!


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Copy the URL of the video you want to post.
> 
> Then click on the _film _icon (between the _picture _and _quote _ icons - when you hover over it it says "Insert video". In the dialogue box paste in your URL and click "OK". Voilà!


Thanks for the explanation!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Alfredo Kraus is another I don't particularly care for.
Or Marilyn Horne.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Terfel's another...................


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Horne is hit and miss with me. She could get really trumpet-y sometimes, which I found rather grating, but other times she sounded great (the Met '86 L'Italiana in Algeri comes to mind). I like Kraus all right. I don't mind Terfel.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I will add Cecelia Bartoli to my list.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ you're hard to please! not a pretty voice but she's got some neat chops for Baroque.

how about this clip, I think Horne sounds outstanding and it came as a suprise to me (I didn't even think of her for this role):


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

deggial said:


> ^ you're hard to please! not a pretty voice but she's got some neat chops for Baroque.
> 
> how about this clip, I think Horne sounds outstanding and it came as a suprise to me (I didn't even think of her for this role):


No doubt shes a great singer. I just don't care for her sound.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

It's interesting what Itullian says about Marilyn Horne, because I personally have never liked Vivica Genaux very much, and I've finally figured out the reason why: it's because her voice reminds me of Horne's but doesn't have the same size or solidity, and I find her rather inexpressive as well.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

since the thread is back, here is another surprise for me - Bartoli, whose voice I don't usually rate as far as beauty goes, singing _Tanti affetti_ in a - to me - surprisingly beautiful manner:


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Interesting that the two singers who spring to mind for me have not been mentioned yet in this thread. While I respect their skill and understand that my view is definitively in the minority, I really can't stand *Renee Fleming* or *Beverly Sills*. Something about their tone or the color of their voices just rubs me the wrong way.

Another singer that gives me problems at times is *Kathleen Battle*, but that's more in regards to video of her singing. I love her voice and she's obviously gorgeous, but all her weird mouth tics are very distracting.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I'm with you on Sills. It's not even her voice, it's the way she performs (vocally, not visually) that bugs me to no end for some reason. Fleming in Strauss is wonderful to me, Rossini and Handel roles = iffy. Battle was an acquired taste but she recorded the best *Tornami a vagheggiar* in my opinion and I was pretty much sold after that.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

deggial said:


> I'm with you on Sills. It's not even her voice, it's the way she performs (vocally, not visually) that bugs me to no end for some reason. Fleming in Strauss is wonderful to me, Rossini and Handel roles = iffy. Battle was an acquired taste but she recorded the best *Tornami a vagheggiar* in my opinion and I was pretty much sold after that.


Better than Mme. Dessay? Surely you jest!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

at the expense of upsetting your appreciation for La Dessay, yes, much better. I love Dessay's acting in that particular aria but I've never quite warmed up to her voice. I wouldn't place her among disliked singers but I tend to find I like other singers' renditions better than hers.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Fair enough. While I love Ms. Battle's voice, her lack of any real trill and often vulgar ornamentals (listen to her Una Voce Poco Fa for an example) keep her out of my top tiers. Her voice is gorgeous, she's gorgeous, and she's a fine actress but too many flaws in her skill set.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Kathleen Battle is one of the first operatic sopranos I ever heard. I love the purity of her voice and think she's quite skilled at coloratura (I never knew she lacked a trill; in the pieces I've heard her sing it wasn't a requirement), but I can relate to the above comment about her technique being pretty visible when one watches her. Her rendition of "Una voce poco fa" in the Met BARBIERE telecast from the 1980's (it's on Youtube) is a good example of this. But I think that's partly changing taste -- nowadays, singers tend to try to conceal their techniques more, especially because perormances now are frequently recorded for DVD.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I see what you guys are saying about her Una voce poco fa but I found her utterly adorable


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Couchie said:


> That does remind me, Callas' Wagner was terrible.


Based on what? The only examples of Callas singing Wagner we have are a complete Kundry, on which she sounds like the seductive siren that Kundry should be, and a couple of recordings of the Liebstod, both remarkable for the womanliness and femininity she brings to the role of Isolde. Sure, they are sung in Italian, but all Wagner was sung in Italian in Italy in those days. Before Serafin discovered her gifts as a _bel canto_ singer, she was making quite a name for herself singing Isolde, Brunnhilde and Turandot.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

moody said:


> On the contrary and that is the problem.


Sorry, Moody, you keep saying this, but Callas's technique was prodigious, a technique that allowed her to render the score with a good deal more accuracy than many of the singers you so admire. Grace Bumbry once said that if you wrote down what Callas sang, you would come up with exactly what the composer wrote, not just the notes, but the expression those composers wrote in to their scores.

When she was young, and at her peak, there was hardly a piece of music by any composer that she could not sing with startling accuracy. Her _legato_ was better than almost any post-war singer, her use of _portamento_ exemplary, her downward chromatic legato scales breathtaking.

It was her _singing_, not her acting ability that led so diverse a group of musicians to admire her, and amongst her fans one could list conductors Karajan, Beecham, Bernstein, Giulini, Serafin, singers such as Bumbry, Scotto, Sutherland, Caballe (who admired her extravagantly by the way), Cotrubas and instrumentalists like Victoria Mullova and Claudio Arrau, who would play records of Callas singing Bellini to his students to help them understand how to phrase Chopin.

Admittedly her peak was short ("better 10 years like Callas than 20 like anyone else" according to Sills), and the voice started to let her down as early as the late to mid 50s, but, even at the end of her recording career, when it is often acidulous and parlous on top, she can sing trills and scales, that less technically gifted singers could only dream of.

You don't like her voice. Fine. Lots of people don't. I accept that, but enough of the carping comments about one of the greatest _musicians_ ever to set foot on the operatic stage.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Back to the topic. Really good opera singers I don't like? I'd rather say there are some really good singers whom I don't respond to for some reason.

Jessye Norman is one of those, and I heard her live many times. I kept trying to see what it was that others liked so much. The voice was rich of course and she was a commanding presence, but for me all the emotion was a bit generalised, nothing specific to the music she was singing.

Joan Sutherland I never heard live, but she too is a singer I don't really respond to. I can be stunned by the virtuosity and the technique (I often play her recording of _Bel Raggio_ off _The Art of the Prima Donna_ as an example of stunningly joyful singing), but she rarely moves me. One _bel canto_ heroine sounds much like any other. Norma, Lucia, Lucrezia, Maria Stuarda - they could all be the same person, and the diction, or rather the lack of it, drives me potty.

Nevertheless I can see why she was a great singer, and this is what I try to do with all singers. Look for the good in them. There are very few that make it onto the world stage, who are just plain bad singers. Some may not be to my taste, but they all have something I can admire.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

*GregMitchell:* "Singers I don't respond to for some reason" is an excellent way of putting it. It's true for me as well. In fact, I'd describe my opinion of Warren, Bastiannini, and Albanese in my list way up-thread in exactly that way. Objectively, I can hear that they were great singers; it's just that I personally can't get excited about their singing the way others can.

Among past Verdi baritones, for instance, I have always responded extremely well to the singing of Sherrill Milnes, Lawrence Tibbett, and Robert Merrill and would generally much prefer to hear one of them rather than Bastiannini or Warren or even Tito Gobbi. But again, that's a matter of personal perception/preference, as I know of opera-lovers who would say the opposite.

Similarly, last night I was listening to a Verdi compilation I own and comparing different sopranos. I played Zinka Milanov singing "D'amor sull'ali rosee" from IL TROVATORE, Rosa Ponselle (with Giovanni Martinelli) singing the Miserere from the same opera, and Leontyne Price singing an aria from I LOMBARDI. Milanov had a beautiful voice and was a great interpreter, but I prefer both Price and Ponselle, as there is a certain stolidity in Milanov's voice/manner that sort of puts me off and that I don't hear in the other two sopranos. I guess Ponselle and Price just seem more "modern" to me (even though I know, of course, that Ponselle was earlier than Milanov). I'm pretty young and don't have a very long "opera memory" (having only gotten interested in opera in the late 1990's), so I'm sure my age affects my perceptions of singers and their performance styles to some extent.

By the way, I love Joan Sutherland; she's on a short list of my favorite sopranos. I know exactly what you mean about the diction issue, but -- and again, this is a personal opinion -- if a singer is going to have murky diction, I think it's better to have it in the _bel canto_ repertoire rather than in, say, late-Verdi or verismo, because in _bel canto_ the emotion and drama come more from sound than from text. So when I listen to Sutherland, I tend to listen to what her sound is "saying," and in her recordings there are many great instances of her sound alone perfectly communicating the sense of the words.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> *GregMitchell:* "Singers I don't respond to for some reason" is an excellent way of putting it.
> 
> Similarly, last night I was listening to a Verdi compilation I own and comparing different sopranos. I played Zinka Milanov singing "D'amor sull'ali rosee" from IL TROVATORE, Rosa Ponselle (with Giovanni Martinelli) singing the Miserere from the same opera, and Leontyne Price singing an aria from I LOMBARDI. Milanov had a beautiful voice and was a great interpreter, but I prefer both Price and Ponselle, as there is a certain stolidity in Milanov's voice/manner that sort of puts me off and that I don't hear in the other two sopranos. I guess Ponselle and Price just seem more "modern" to me (even though I know, of course, that Ponselle was earlier than Milanov). I'm pretty young and don't have a very long "opera memory" (having only gotten interested in opera in the late 1990's), so I'm sure my age affects my perceptions of singers and their performance styles to some extent.


I'm not young, but I feel exactly the same way as you about Milanov. I find her stolid, uncommunicative and, to be honest, rather dull. It's a voice I've never responded to.



Bellinilover said:


> By the way, I love Joan Sutherland; she's on a short list of my favorite sopranos. I know exactly what you mean about the diction issue, but -- and again, this is a personal opinion -- if a singer is going to have murky diction, I think it's better to have it in the _bel canto_ repertoire rather than in, say, late-Verdi or verismo, because in _bel canto_ the emotion and drama come more from sound than from text. So when I listen to Sutherland, I tend to listen to what her sound is "saying," and in her recordings there are many great instances of her sound alone perfectly communicating the sense of the words.


When it comes to Sutherland, it would be wrong for me to say I don't respond to her at all. She is a singer I can enjoy in small doses, when I can sit back and revel in the sheer beauty of the sound, the virtuosity of the singing, and, especially in the earlier records, the insouciant ease she displays up top. However the sounds itself "says" very little to me. For me it communicates very little sense of the words at all, and, as I said in my post, one _bel canto_ heroine emerges much like any other. She rarely, if ever, moves me emotionally.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

I'll get lynched for this, but recently i've gone off Jussi Bjorling and now i'm not too fond of him at all. Its very odd I used to find him amazing.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

^ For me, Bjorling is one of the few oldschool greats that I was never mad about. Other example here would be Gigli. Very respectable figures, but didn't inspire my awe. I don't feel guilty though, they get lots of love from many other listeners and so I'm free to locate mine elsewhere.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Bring out the torches. I just can't stand hearing Franco Corelli singing in French. (q.v., Don Jose in Carmen.) Or even in some Italian operas. I'm ok with the live versions of Andrea Chenier and Il Trovatore from the early sixties, with fine conductors at the helm.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Revenant said:


> Bring out the torches.


ssssss
THAT'S NOT WHAT I HAVE IN STORE FOR THE LIKES OF YOU

Anyway, try Corelli singing Don Jose in Italian:

1) 



2) 



 (bad quality)


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Aramis said:


> ssssss
> THAT'S NOT WHAT I HAVE IN STORE FOR THE LIKES OF YOU
> 
> Anyway, try Corelli singing Don Jose in Italian:
> ...


I'll be waiting. And as far as Don Jose in Italian, no thanks, no matter who sings it.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Revenant said:


> Bring out the torches. I just can't stand hearing Franco Corelli singing in French. (q.v., Don Jose in Carmen.) Or even in some Italian operas. I'm ok with the live versions of Andrea Chenier and Il Trovatore from the early sixties, with fine conductors at the helm.


Corelli is another one of those singers I can only take in small doses, and you're right his French is execrable. The voice is a splendid instrument of course, but the lachrymose style and sobs are all a bit much for me. Give me Bjoerling any day.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Well, I do love some Italian Don Josés, like this one:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

schigolch said:


> Well, I do love some Italian Don Josés, like this one:


I think you'll find he was Spanish. Or was that your point? Sorry, too much Christmas food has dulled the senses.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

GregMitchell said:


> Or was that your point?


I think the point was that "Italian" Don Jose is the one that sings the Italian translation of the text, not the one who is Italian singer.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I always found Jesse Norman to be over-rated. Don't see what all the fuss was about.
Also, Placido Domingo never lit my fire.
Joan Sutherland-who the heck knew what words she was singing?


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Jobis said:


> I'll get lynched for this, but recently i've gone off Jussi Bjorling and now i'm not too fond of him at all. Its very odd I used to find him amazing.


While I don't think Bjoerling was a great vocal actor by any means, I like him because his voice is (for me) emotionally affecting simply as sound. I feel the same way about (what I've heard of) Renata Tebaldi -- somewhat stolid and non-specific in the vocal-acting department, but an extremely touching sound. Also, Robert Merrill: I don't find him to have been a very imaginative actor-with-the voice either, but I _do_ find his voice a consistent pleasure to listen to, and a very warm personality always comes through; he sounds to have been a totally affable, likeable man.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Corelli is another one of those singers I can only take in small doses, and you're right his French is execrable. The voice is a splendid instrument of course, but the lachrymose style and sobs are all a bit much for me. Give me Bjoerling any day.


Corelli belonged to the Gi-hi-gli school of maudlin sobbing. Yet for some reason I can abide Gigli when he does it (most of the time).


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Revenant said:


> Corelli belonged to the Gi-hi-gli school of maudlin sobbing. Yet for some reason I can abide Gigli when he does it (most of the time).


The tenor whose lachrymose style I don't mind is Richard Tucker. I can take Corelli's in smaller doses. I haven't heard enough of Gigli to make a final judgment, but I think I can hear how his could get irritating after a while -- I guess because his voice sounds less "manly" than either Tucker or Corelli (in the sense that it doesn't have their darker quality) and could come across as that of a whining kid, or something.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> The tenor whose lachrymose style I don't mind is Richard Tucker. I can take Corelli's in smaller doses. I haven't heard enough of Gigli to make a final judgment, but I think I can hear how his could get irritating after a while -- I guess because his voice sounds less "manly" than either Tucker or Corelli (in the sense that it doesn't have their darker quality) and could come across as that of a whining kid, or something.


I see how it could strike you that way with Gigli. Try to hear some of his recordings from 1925-1935, preferably those remastered by Mark Obert-Thorn. But yes, after listening to Gigli I have to reach out for someone like Di Stefano to detox from the melismatic overkill. I also agree with you concerning Tucker. Not a great vocal actor and tended to overmasticate the Italian on occassion but ok and very intense. Great for La Forza, Chenier, Radames, and such. His _Verrano a te _duet with Tebaldi (should be on YouTube) overpowers me, in a good way. Oops, I hijacked another thread. Sorry.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

Revenant said:


> Bring out the torches. I just can't stand hearing Franco Corelli singing in French. (q.v., Don Jose in Carmen.) Or even in some Italian operas. I'm ok with the live versions of Andrea Chenier and Il Trovatore from the early sixties, with fine conductors at the helm.


Once I started noticing Corelli's tendency to lisp, I now can't NOT hear it. It finally got to the point where I all I now hear is "sss".


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Operafocus said:


> Once I started noticing Corelli's tendency to lisp, I now can't NOT hear it. It finally got to the point where I all I now hear is "sss".


Likewise, I've noticed that Carlo Bergonzi tended to pronounce "s" like "sh." I read that it's a feature of the accent of the region of Italy where he's from (Emilia Romagna, I believe).


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

Bellinilover said:


> Likewise, I've noticed that Carlo Bergonzi tended to pronounce "s" like "sh." I read that it's a feature of the accent of the region of Italy where he's from (Emilia Romagna, I believe).


I mean, you only have to hear the first word in "Nessun Dorma"... He (Corelli) never spoke with a lisp, so I don't get why he would sing with one. Some weird technical thing I don't know about?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

2 of my favorite singers.
Glorious !!!!!!
Who cares a lisp!!!


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

I don't care for Renta Tebaldi, Jussi Bjorling (except one or two performances), Birgit Nilsson (she always sounds shrill to me), Franco Corelli (I can't stand his delivery or his phrases), or Maria Callas. I can't stand Renata Scotto unless I'm watching her, Leontyne Price, unless she's singing Verdi, or Jose Carreras, except his _Tosca_ with Karajan.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Interesting that Birgit Nilsson and Karajan didn't get on despite the glories and power of the voice. Christa Ludwig says that Karajan didn't care for the actual tone Nilsson produced as it wasn't a particularly moulded sound which "was not Karajan's tipple." She adds: "as she (Nilsson) also had quite a mouth on her it was never going to be a marriage made in heaven!"


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> or Jose Carreras, except his _Tosca_ with Karajan.


Dude, really, I mean, like, are you trying to say that you can stand only his post-illness Cavaradossi while there's recording with Colin Davis on which he does the same role but in the peak of his vocal glory?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Bellinilover said:


> The tenor whose lachrymose style I don't mind is Richard Tucker. I can take Corelli's in smaller doses. I haven't heard enough of Gigli to make a final judgment, but I think I can hear how his could get irritating after a while -- I guess because his voice sounds less "manly" than either Tucker or Corelli (in the sense that it doesn't have their darker quality) and could come across as that of a whining kid, or something.


For goodness sake ,how long have you been into opera ? Your conclusion is bizarre,apart from Caruso Gigli is the paramount Italian tenor of all time.Neither Tucke r or Corelli can stand near Gigli without being overshadowed.
I first heard Gigli when the librarian recommended that I should listen to him, that was in 1946 and the only criticism I have ever heard has been regarding matters of taste, but then that's Gigli. I have never heard such stuff --ever.
He is a true tenor with no baritonal elements in his voice.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Moody is correct - Gigli was a wonderful tenor and one of the best we're likely to hear on record (and I have a big, big soft spot for Franco Corelli). 

Perhaps listening to Gigli through a whole opera might help show how good he is - sometimes listening to clips on a compilation (or via youtube) can give a misleading imppression of how well a good singer can engage you through the action. I guess that is one reason why so many experienced listeners don't value 'popera' stars who only release 'my favourite arias' CDs with fluffy photos on the cover. Naxos have a good starting point with a 1939 recording of Puccini's Butterfly with Gigli singing wonderfully throughout


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

moody said:


> Neither Tucker or Corelli can stand near Gigli without being overshadowed.


Nonsense, high stars can't overshadow each other since each shines with it's own light.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ dunno, Sirius is almost twice as bright as Canopus...


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Dude, really, I mean, like, are you trying to say that you can stand only his post-illness Cavaradossi while there's recording with Colin Davis on which he does the same role but in the peak of his vocal glory?


Well, like, yeah, man, I am. His voice is fresher, certainly, on the Davis recording, but his performance is better on the Karajan, to me at least.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

moody said:


> For goodness sake ,how long have you been into opera ? Your conclusion is bizarre,apart from Caruso Gigli is the paramount Italian tenor of all time.Neither Tucke r or Corelli can stand near Gigli without being overshadowed.
> I first heard Gigli when the librarian recommended that I should listen to him, that was in 1946 and the only criticism I have ever heard has been regarding matters of taste, but then that's Gigli. I have never heard such stuff --ever.
> He is a true tenor with no baritonal elements in his voice.


Hey, I don't care much for Gigli either. His voice can be nice sometimes, but it's never involving for me. I usually find it to be rather pale. Perhaps that's due to recording quality, but I adore Georges Thill, who was recording around the same time. If I could go back to hear one or the other live, I would pick Thill in a heartbeat.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Aramis said:


> Nonsense, high stars can't overshadow each other since each shines with it's own light.


As do you of course.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> Hey, I don't care much for Gigli either. His voice can be nice sometimes, but it's never involving for me. I usually find it to be rather pale. Perhaps that's due to recording quality, but I adore Georges Thill, who was recording around the same time. If I could go back to hear one or the other live, I would pick Thill in a heartbeat.


You may pick Thill,I have most of what he's done, but they are different animals.
A for Gigli being pale--what sort of equipment are you using ?


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Itullian said:


> 2 of my favorite singers.
> Glorious !!!!!!
> Who cares a lisp!!!


I guess it might be a bit of a drawback if he were singing Radames.

"_Theyay quel guerriero fothee, theyay il mio thogno theyay averrathey.._"


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Moody is correct - Gigli was a wonderful tenor and one of the best we're likely to hear on record (and I have a big, big soft spot for Franco Corelli).
> 
> Perhaps listening to Gigli through a whole opera might help show how good he is - sometimes listening to clips on a compilation (or via youtube) can give a misleading imppression of how well a good singer can engage you through the action. I guess that is one reason why so many experienced listeners don't value 'popera' stars who only release 'my favourite arias' CDs with fluffy photos on the cover. Naxos have a good starting point with a 1939 recording of Puccini's Butterfly with Gigli singing wonderfully throughout


The best sung and vocally acted Pinkerton I've heard, and Toti dal Monte is surprisingly the best Butterfly (if we're talking about the same recording).


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Revenant said:


> I guess it might be a bit of a drawback if he were singing Radames.


Radameth, you mean. Lisps are funny, as are accents - they make a singer endearing (or really annoying ).


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

moody said:


> For goodness sake ,how long have you been into opera ? Your conclusion is bizarre,apart from Caruso Gigli is the paramount Italian tenor of all time.Neither Tucke r or Corelli can stand near Gigli without being overshadowed.
> I first heard Gigli when the librarian recommended that I should listen to him, that was in 1946 and the only criticism I have ever heard has been regarding matters of taste, but then that's Gigli. I have never heard such stuff --ever.
> He is a true tenor with no baritonal elements in his voice.


To answer your question, I've been into opera since 1998.

I never said I didn't like Gigli or that he wasn't a great tenor; if you read my post, I said I'd heard very little of him. _ All I was saying was that, from the little I've heard, I could see how some might dislike his style_. I also said that I have a personal liking for Tucker, not that Tucker was better than Gigli. I'm not and never have been the type to put forth what are essentially my opinions as though they were indisputable fact. Calm down, please.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

deggial said:


> Radameth, you mean. Lisps are funny, as are accents - they make a singer endearing (or really annoying ).


True. We all love Daffy Duck and Silvester the cat, do we not. Excuse me, I'm suffering from senile memory lately and it arcs back to childhood.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Revenant said:


> True. We all love Daffy Duck and Silvester the cat, do we not. Excuse me, I'm suffering from senile memory lately and it arcs back to childhood.


sufferin succotash !!


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

Joan Sutherland, and i don't know why...she was amazing but not for me...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Moody is correct - Gigli was a wonderful tenor and one of the best we're likely to hear on record (and I have a big, big soft spot for Franco Corelli).
> 
> Naxos have a good starting point with a 1939 recording of Puccini's Butterfly with Gigli singing wonderfully throughout


And Toti Dal Monte ain't bad either.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

This topic was always bound to illicit heated responses, which is why I preferred to list really good singers I don't respond to rather than actively dislike. I can hear what makes them great, but, for one reason or another, they don't really "speak" to me. Sutherland is one of those. I hear and acknowledge the greatness, but I can't think of any role that she recorded that I wouldn't rather hear sung by someone else. Maybe Semiramide, but I can't think of another.

It's one of the reasons I get mad when the Callas haters get going,. I totally understand why some don't like the voice and can't get past the (sometimes) acidulous tone on high, the wobble in later life, though it could occasionally creep in as early as 1954. That is fine. I accept it. They can't get past that, in the same way I can't get past Sutherland's woolly diction. But surely they can, as most great musicians do and did (Klemperer amongst them), at least acknowledge her superior musicianship and superb phrasing, not to mention her finely tuned dramatic instincts.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Revenant said:


> The best sung and vocally acted Pinkerton I've heard, and Toti dal Monte is surprisingly the best Butterfly (if we're talking about the same recording).


Gigli's Rudfolfo is ,along with Ferruccio Tagliavini 's, the best I've heard to date.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

moody said:


> Gigli's Rudfolfo is ,along with Ferruccio Tagliavini 's, the best I've heard to date.


Who is Rudfolfo? I like that name. It would be a great name to choose for a new pet puppy.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Revenant said:


> Who is Rudfolfo? I like that name. It would be a great name to choose for a new pet puppy.


Maybe he just admired sound made Gigli's red volvo.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Maybe he just admired sound made Gigli's red volvo.


Let us hope that is what made the sound.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Revenant said:


> Let us hope that is what made the sound.


It's not fair to make fun of an old man you know.
In any case I've been missing for several days as I'm rough at the moment---but the Giggling thing got me all excited. I can now collapse back into my bed.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Collapse only to revive refreshed, though, please.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

moody said:


> It's not fair to make fun of an old man you know.
> In any case I've been missing for several days as I'm rough at the moment---but the Giggling thing got me all excited. I can now collapse back into my bed.


But hurry back


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

moody said:


> It's not fair to make fun of an old man you know.
> In any case I've been missing for several days as I'm rough at the moment---but the Giggling thing got me all excited. I can now collapse back into my bed.


I agree, being 66 years old and counting.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

This thread's title is *Really good* opera singers that you don't particularly like.................. All members are entitled to express their opinions without being attacked for them, even if one of your favourite opera singers is being mentioned.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

Revenant said:


> I guess it might be a bit of a drawback if he were singing Radames.
> 
> "_Theyay quel guerriero fothee, theyay il mio thogno theyay averrathey.._"


This literally made me laugh out loud. :lol:

As Homer Simpson once put it: "It's funny cause it's true."


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

mamascarlatti said:


> All members are entitled to express their opinions without being attacked for them, even if one of your favourite opera singers is being mentioned.


ok

I hate that Peter Mattei guy


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Aramis said:


> ok
> 
> I hate that Peter Mattei guy


I guess you're thinking that's what _mamascarlatti_ will do to you when she catches you? :devil:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> I guess you're thinking that's what _mamascarlatti_ will do to you when she catches you? :devil:


Gif from my favourite movie director, all is forgiven.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

They used real arrows, shot by a top marksman, in that scene. Kurosawa's relations with Mifune were always stormy.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Revenant said:


> They used real arrows, shot by a top marksman, in that scene. Kurosawa's relations with Mifune were always stormy.


No wonder he looked terrified.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yuri Marusin (crying labrador)


hahaha, spot on description.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> And Toti Dal Monte ain't bad either.


That is the original HMV recording,Naxos are doing good work on reissues.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

schigolch said:


> Well, I do love some Italian Don Josés, like this one:


Fleta was fine in everything he did---as long as you are happy to throw every thought of good taste out of the widow.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Revenant said:


> They used real arrows, shot by a top marksman, in that scene. Kurosawa's relations with Mifune were always stormy.


Hardly surprising. Why not just pull the arrows out (it's not like all of the arrow is in shot) and play it backwards. :lol:


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Revenant said:


> They used real arrows, shot by a top marksman, in that scene. Kurosawa's relations with Mifune were always stormy.


Similiarly, you got that scene in Ran when riders jump on horses over "bodies" that are, in fact, real people lying there and one of them, if I remember well, remains still and keeps on "playing" the corpse even after he gets hit by horse hoof.

And in opera, tenor can't even touch the baritone with his rubber sword in fighting scene, fearing to kill him for real.


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

Reading all the contributions to this thread it seems to me that collectively, we hate everyone..... So can I add Dietrich Fischer Dieskau to the list.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

alan davis said:


> Reading all the contributions to this thread it seems to me that collectively, we hate everyone..... So can I add Dietrich Fischer Dieskau to the list.


But actually, if you read my posts, you would note that I nominated singers to whom I don't really respond, rather than disliked. I can't think of any famous singers I actually hate (hate is a strong word) or even actively dislike. Possibly Cecilia Bartoli, but that's about it.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

GregMitchell said:


> But actually, if you read my posts, you would note that I nominated singers to whom I don't really respond, rather than disliked. I can't think of any famous singers I actually hate (hate is a strong word) or even actively dislike. Possibly Cecilia Bartoli, but that's about it.


Don't worry, I'm sure there are people whose opera-hatred fills the deficit caused by your unwillingness to contribute.


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> But actually, if you read my posts, you would note that I nominated singers to whom I don't really respond, rather than disliked. I can't think of any famous singers I actually hate (hate is a strong word) or even actively dislike. Possibly Cecilia Bartoli, but that's about it.


My comment about us collectively hating everyone was said tongue in cheek. Likewise if we had a thread about singers we really like, well collectively we'd probably love everyone.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> I can't think of any famous singers I actually hate (hate is a strong word) or even actively dislike.


don't be shy. I don't think I mentioned Mario del Monaco but oh dear god I can't stand that shouty nonsense.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

deggial said:


> don't be shy. I don't think I mentioned Mario del Monaco but oh dear god I can't stand that shouty nonsense.


Not my favourite tenor, no, but a voice of clarion splendour, for the most part unsubtly used. No, don't hate. nor even actively dislike.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

deggial said:


> don't be shy. I don't think I mentioned Mario del Monaco but oh dear god I can't stand that shouty nonsense.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ you're on


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Aramis said:


>


Samurai Assassin to defend del Monaco?


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Giacomo Lauri-Volpi, in many respects an illustrious singer, teacher and writer about voice technique, but I could never stand his pronounced vibrato, particularly in his earlier years. Apparently he was also a piece of work as a person and colleague.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Revenant said:


> Samurai Assassin to defend del Monaco?


It's not _Samurai Assassin_, it's _The Sword of Doom_. Simple assassination isn't suitable for MdM haters and they have to face the doom coming upon them.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ ho ho ho, I scoff at your threats of doom. *Chris the ninja pirate* will sort thee out in a jiffy. Prepare your pipe cleaners.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

IF OPERA SINGERS WOULD BE TURNED TO FISH, WHAT FISH WOULD MARIO DEL MONACO BE?

YELLYFISH

AHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAaaa


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Aramis said:


> It's not _Samurai Assassin_, it's _The Sword of Doom_. Simple assassination isn't suitable for MdM haters and they have to face the doom coming upon them.


My mistake. I always get those two mixed up.


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## Lucrezia (Nov 21, 2013)

I am not a fan (to say the least) of *Roberto Alagna* and *Alfredo Kraus*. Unfortunately, their voices do not capture me and the acting does bring them up my list: Alagna is always overacting and is mostly just Alagna on stage and Kraus is sort of too pompous.

But most of the times it's not the signer that I don't like, but a signer in a particular role.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Lucrezia said:


> I am not a fan (to say the least) of *Roberto Alagna* and *Alfredo Kraus*. Unfortunately, their voices do not capture me and the acting does bring them up my list: Alagna is always overacting and is mostly just Alagna on stage and Kraus is sort of too pompous.
> 
> But most of the times it's not the signer that I don't like, but a signer in a particular role.


Interesting. I myself have never liked Alagna. In fact, he's one of the _very_ few singers about whom I can honestly say "I don't like him" rather than just "I don't respond to him." His voice has always sounded dry and colorless to me, while his manner has always struck me as totally charmless. I just don't like him.

Kraus I'm not as familiar with, but I have heard him and can see why some might not like that very slender, bright, penetrating tone. It doesn't have any of the mellowness of, say, Pavarotti's voice.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> His voice has always sounded dry and colorless to me, while his manner has always struck me as totally charmless. I just don't like him.


ditto, count me in the Alagna verboten club (I may have mentioned him up-thread but who wants to check when you can have a good moan instead? ). I like Kraus, though.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I disliked Alagna as well, for the usual reasons. I still hate some stuff he did. There are things from him, though, that I find to be undisputable top class singing. These things include his magnificent recital CD of French arias:


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## Lucrezia (Nov 21, 2013)

Aramis said:


> I disliked Alagna as well, for the usual reasons. I still hate some stuff he did. There are things from him, though, that I find to be undisputable top class singing. These things include his magnificent recital CD of French arias:


BIG YES to this!
Whatever his voice is his French is impeccable, so smooth.
I looove this duet with Hampson from them French version of Don Carlo:





Though again Alagna is a bit too tragic.
And in my post above i meant to say "their acting does NOT bring them up my list"


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I quite like Alagna, but mostly in the French repertoire. His debut as Romeo in Gounod's opera at Covent Garden was one of _the_ great nights in the theatre. There was a palpable sense of excitement in the house that night. Had we finally found a successor to the big three? Unfortunately that promise was not entirely fulfilled, but I still like him in French opera. His Werther is excellent, so too his Romeo, when he came to record it with Gheorghiu. I also have an excellent disc of Berlioz arias sung by him. The one Italian role I have him singing is Ruggero in *La Rondine*, in which he also excels.

As for Kraus, well I suppose the voice could be a bit dry, but what a refined artist, what a stylist. Many of his commercial records catch him a bit late admittedly, but he still has amazing control over that instrument. He reminds me a little of Schipa.


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## Lucrezia (Nov 21, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> The one Italian role I have him singing is Ruggero in *La Rondine*, in which he also excels.


I was planning to listen to his Ruggero because I had some sort of feeling that he might be good in that. You just confirmed my suspicions


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I just love the sound of Alagna's French, and I don't mind his voice. 

But I really don't like Kraus.


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## Donata (Dec 28, 2013)

I don't care for Joan Sutherland. Some of her stuff is OK, but her voice really doesn't do it for me.


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## howemj (Jan 30, 2014)

Could never really get my ears to like Samuel Ramey. Too dark for my taste perhaps.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ and always sings real slow.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Yes, Alagna does seem to have much more of a French voice. Probably I was listening to him in the wrong repertoire (Italian).


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## BevSills (Jul 23, 2014)

The lady in question: Mariella Devia. I never saw her in person, but I heard her a lot on the MET broadcasts and she always left me cold. I have never understood James Levine's obsession with her.


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## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

At the risk of offending the faithful, I always found Maria Callas' issues with pitch to be off putting. While I recognize both her dramatic skills and the fact that the bel canto renaissance owes much to her choice of repertory, I simply do not like to listen to her. Nor do I much care for anything in German nomatter who sings it.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

JohnGerald said:


> At the risk of offending the faithful, I always found Maria Callas' issues with pitch to be off putting.


Issues with pitch? First I've ever heard of it. Of course she didn't benefit from all the knob twiddling they do in the studio now to make sure singers are always in tune.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

BevSills said:


> The lady in question: Mariella Devia. I never saw her in person, but I heard her a lot on the MET broadcasts and she always left me cold. I have never understood James Levine's obsession with her.
> View attachment 47282


I've never heard her, but I did just order the recording of _L'elisir d'amore_ with her (and Alagna -- I've decided to give him another chance), because I've heard so many good things about it and want a fairly recent recording of the work, and because it's been reissued at budget price. I'll have to come back here and post what I think of Devia after I've listened to her.


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## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I've never heard her, but I did just order the recording of _L'elisir d'amore_ with her (and Alagna -- I've decided to give him another chance), because I've heard so many good things about it and want a fairly recent recording of the work, and because it's been reissued at budget price. I'll have to come back here and post what I think of Devia after I've listened to her.


There is a DVD of Devia doing La Fille du Regiment. I just checked amazon.com and it's $12.85 "used-very good" (which is how I buy DVDs). Paul Austin Kelly isn't JDF, but he is quite acceptable, but Devia really shows off. She has a nice comedic sense, although not in the class with Dessay's wonderful whackiness.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> I'll have to come back here and post what I think of Devia after I've listened to her.


belcantist par excellence, you might end up liking her a lot.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Cecelia Bartoli


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Lucrezia said:


>


look at the amount of hair in that picture! it's like a hair metal version of opera :lol:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

deggial said:


> ^ and always sings real slow.







read the comments and then go to






:devil:


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

:lol: who knew Samuel Ramey was going on youtube. That's one of his best performances, too!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Anna Netrebko , I do not hate anybody but this voice means nothing to me.


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## Ivansen (Aug 8, 2014)

Pugg said:


> Anna Netrebko , I do not hate anybody but this voice means nothing to me.


I really like Netrebko, mainly because of her charisma and presence though, rather than finding her voice to be particularly great.

Renee Fleming however I despise. 

No, I can't think of any singers that I can't stand. Some tend to sing parts that I like less than others, but then that's hardly the singers fault. Sometimes smugness and arrogance in a singer is off-putting, but that's not musical, that's personal.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Ivansen said:


> Sometimes smugness and arrogance in a singer is off-putting, but that's not musical, that's personal.


It's even weirder when you like the voice but feel the singer's public persona is arrogant.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Ivansen said:


> Renee Fleming however I despise.


Why do you despise Renee Fleming? What did she do to you?

I have met, and actually worked with, Fleming and found her always gracious, friendly, and not in the least bit prima donna-ish. I think she has one of the most beautiful voices now before the public, not quite as radiant as it once was, bit still an instrument of great beauty. I do find fault with some of her mannerisms, particularly the jazzy _portamenti_ she indulges in in pretty much everything she sings, but I don't despise her for them; they just get on my nerves a bit.

Despise is a very strong word. I'd find it hard to _despise_ any singer, unless they had done something to hurt me personally, so I can only conclude that she did something to personally offend you.


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## Ivansen (Aug 8, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Why do you despise Renee Fleming? What did she do to you?
> 
> I have met, and actually worked with, Fleming and found her always gracious, friendly, and not in the least bit prima donna-ish. I think she has one of the most beautiful voices now before the public, not quite as radiant as it once was, bit still an instrument of great beauty. I do find fault with some of her mannerisms, particularly the jazzy _portamenti_ she indulges in in pretty much everything she sings, but I don't despise her for them; they just get on my nerves a bit.
> 
> Despise is a very strong word. I'd find it hard to _despise_ any singer, unless they had done something to hurt me personally, so I can only conclude that she did something to personally offend you.


It was a joke, hence the 

I saw that Pugg had declared his love for Fleming in the introduction section, and I thought I'd take on the role of an insulted Netrebko-fanatic by rubbishing Fleming.

I like Flemings voice a lot, and I'm sure she is a wonderful person too. How exciting to have worked with her, may I ask what you do?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Ivansen said:


> It was a joke, hence the
> 
> I saw that Pugg had declared his love for Fleming in the introduction section, and I thought I'd take on the role of an insulted Netrebko-fanatic by rubbishing Fleming.
> 
> I like Flemings voice a lot, and I'm sure she is a wonderful person too. How exciting to have worked with her, may I ask what you do?


My bad. I mistook you.

I used to be an actor, and I played the speaking part of the doctor in Previn's *A Streetcar Named Desire* when the LSO put on two semi-staged performances at the Barbican a few years ago. It certainly was a very memorable event. The critics carped, but I have a great affection for the opera. There are some lovely passages, reminiscent of Strauss and Korngold perhaps, but lovely none the less.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I like Netrebko a lot; recently I've been collecting her recital discs, and she's quickly becoming one of my favorite sopranos. Unlike some here, I find her voice extraordinary -- it's so unusual to hear a soprano voice with darkness of timbre, strength in the middle register, _and_ beautiful high notes -- but am not quite so affected by her stage presence. To me, her acting is meticulous but somewhat aloof. A case in point is her recent Tatiana in EUGENE ONEGIN, which was extremely well-acted but somehow didn't move me as much as Renee Fleming's did. Fleming had more warmth, I think. Of course, Netrebko is beautiful to look at, as is Fleming.

Edited to add: Incidentally, I had always assumed, watching her on DVD, that Netrebko is a petite woman, but online sources say she's 5'7"! It goes to show, I guess, that everyone looks small on the Met stage.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Ivansen said:


> It was a joke, hence the
> 
> I saw that Pugg had declared his love for Fleming in the introduction section, and I thought I'd take on the role of an insulted Netrebko-fanatic by rubbishing Fleming.
> 
> I like Flemings voice a lot, and I'm sure she is a wonderful person too. How exciting to have worked with her, may I ask what you do?


I knew:lol: it and as I said I do not hate anyone , some voices just don't do it fore me


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> I like Netrebko a lot; recently I've been collecting her recital discs, and she's quickly becoming one of my favorite sopranos. Unlike some here, I find her voice extraordinary -- it's so unusual to hear a soprano voice with darkness of timbre, strength in the middle register, _and_ beautiful high notes -- but am not quite so affected by her stage presence. To me, her acting is meticulous but somewhat aloof. A case in point is her recent Tatiana in EUGENE ONEGIN, which was extremely well-acted but somehow didn't move me as much as Renee Fleming's did. Fleming had more warmth, I think. Of course, Netrebko is beautiful to look at, as is Fleming.
> 
> Edited to add: Incidentally, I had always assumed, watching her on DVD, that Netrebko is a petite woman, but online sources say she's 5'7"! It goes to show, I guess, that everyone looks small on the Met stage.


But, as a Sutherland fan, doesn't it bother you that her coloratura technique is so effortful? Anything I've ever heard her sing from the _bel canto_ repertoire sounds laboured. I don't much like Fleming in that repertoire either, but she at least can negotiate the notes with ease.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

I would have to say that the only voice that I can honestly say I dislike is Kiri Te Kanawa's. It seems to my ears to lack warmth and regardless of what she sings she seems totally uninvolved. Obviously she has great technique but a voice needs something more than that. Callas, although not as polished, had a voice that engaged the listener and so did Schwarzkopf. I have been listening to the Austrian soprano, Anna Prohaska, recently and she has such musicality and warmth in her voice, allied to a pretty great technique. If she avoids heavy parts for a few years she should delight us all for many years to come.


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## Philmwri (Apr 8, 2011)

I like just about every opera singer. They are all talented but I think singers need to be more realistic in the roles they pick. Anna Netrebko should not sing Rossini. The coloratura is too much for her. Maria Guleghina is amazing singer but she is often off pitch especially when she tries to sing e-flats like Callas. Bryn Terfel is amazing but he can't sing anything with coloratura. Jonas Kaufmann is an excellent tenor but he artificially darkens his voice to make it sounds bigger. I personally love her but many people don't like how she can get a bit clucky sounding(which she does to an extent), but at least she can handle the tesstitura and remain on pitch. Ewa Podles gets a bit of flack for her chest voice being too harsh/strong. I do prefer her voice in the 90's to today because it's had just the right amount of depth to it. Her middle voice before sounded feminine but now only her top sounds feminine. She is probably the greatest contralto and ones of the world's best singers at this time. Voices like that are extremely rare. How many contraltos can sing to high e like her though? 

I do think the singers need to be more selective in what they sing. Many of them are afraid to say no or they just want to make the money. Doing roles that aren't suited to your instrument isn't good for you either. I hate it when I see lyric voices take on spinto or dramatic roles. Why are you doing that to yourself? You can't make your voice bigger/heavier. You can have a well projected voice but it well never be heavy. I'm not saying saying not to try new things but there's no singer that sounds great at everything. Could Deborah Voigt sing Europa in Europa Riconosciuta? No! Could Cecilia Bartoli play Elektra? I love her to death but you wouldn't be able to hear her through that 100 plus piece orchestra even if they were playing pianissimo.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Philmwri said:


> I do think the singers need to be more selective in what they sing. Many of them are afraid to say no or they just want to make the money. Doing roles that aren't suited to your instrument isn't good for you either. I hate it when I see lyric voices take on spinto or dramatic roles. Why are you doing that to yourself? You can't make your voice bigger/heavier. You can have a well projected voice but it well never be heavy. I'm not saying saying not to try new things but there's no singer that sounds great at everything. Could Deborah Voigt sing Europa in Europa Riconosciuta? No! Could Cecilia Bartoli play Elektra? I love her to death but you wouldn't be able to hear her through that 100 plus piece orchestra even if they were playing pianissimo.


Two sopranos who comes to mind being faithful towards their voices are Sutherland and Freni.
I think those two stayed always in their comfort zone.
I do realize that Sutherland never sung Turandot on stage, (very wise ) but the recording is outstanding.
Love or load the voice but she ( Sutherland) and Freni left a outstanding record collection .


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## Philmwri (Apr 8, 2011)

Sutherland's only real downfall to me was her bad diction(I don't really count her chest voice as a downfall because I think we sometimes compare it to Callas's chest voice which sounded like Ewa Podles).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Two sopranos who comes to mind being faithful towards their voices are Sutherland and Freni.
> I think those two stayed always in their comfort zone.
> I do realize that Sutherland never sung Turandot on stage, (very wise ) but the recording is outstanding.
> Love or load the voice but she ( Sutherland) and Freni left a outstanding record collection .


I'm not sure I'd agree about Freni. She was never by nature a lirico spinto, and when she pushed the voice into those roles, it lost some of the sheen it once had. She was an intelligent singer with an excellent technique and her career lasted quite a long time, so she managed the transition well, but it was never really the voice for roles like Leonora or Aida or Tosca, however well she managed to bring them off. The Freni voice I treasure is the one we hear as Nanetta, Susanna or Mimi.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Philmwri said:


> Sutherland's only real downfall to me was her bad diction(I don't really count her chest voice as a downfall because I think we sometimes compare it to Callas's chest voice which sounded like Ewa Podles).


Sutherland's drab lower range wasn't a major liability in most of the repertoire she chose to sing. I think she chose wisely, for the most part. But the dull, inexpressive chest voice was real, and I can't agree with those who say she could have been a dramatic soprano or sung Isolde or Gioconda. No voice (except possibly Ponselle's) could do everything, the valiant attempt by Callas notwithstanding. In this respect Sutherland, down-to-earth Australian girl that she was, was more sensible than Callas - and not one tenth as interesting!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Somehow the voice of Licia Albanese sounds like a little old grandma. Fine actress though.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Sutherland's drab lower range wasn't a major liability in most of the repertoire she chose to sing. I think she chose wisely, for the most part. But the dull, inexpressive chest voice was real, and I can't agree with those who say she could have been a dramatic soprano or sung Isolde or Gioconda. No voice (except possibly Ponselle's) could do everything, the valiant attempt by Callas notwithstanding. In this respect Sutherland, down-to-earth Australian girl that she was, was more sensible than Callas - and not one tenth as interesting!


No cavil or qualification on anything said-- being a big (early period) Sutherland fan, myself.

I would say that as magnificent as Ponselle was,_ her dramatic sense _wasn't one-tenth as interesting as Callas.

-- Not that any of this is really important, as I love all three singers immensely.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

One problem about talking about singers that you do or don't like is that no two people hear the same thing the same way. We all hear basic things like pitch and we can spot when someone is singing in tune or above or below the note but our perception of timbre is subjective so where I might hear Beverley Sills as shrill lots of others don't hear that quality in her voice. Something else to consider is the fact as you get older your ability to hear higher frequencies diminishes. Singers that you heard when you were in your twenties that you dismissed as being unpleasant will in all probability sound acceptable now.

There is also the fact that as far as I am aware, concert pitch has risen by about a tone over the last hundred years, so a recording of Caruso will always sound a bit lower than a modern recording. It's small wonder that modern singers careers are shorter without proper care being taken. Too frequent concerts, endless travel and the need to sing top A's and C's that are actually G's and B's makes it a wonder they have any voices left at all after ten years. Helga Dernesch springs to mind as one of musics great ruined voices. Just my thoughts by the way. Feel free to disagree.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

I never thought Sills was shrill: she was one of the best singers of the modern era. Likewise Renee Doria, who seems to upset some people for similar reasons. I really liked Sills' Manon, though I confess I only bought it for the delectable Gerard Souzay!

Whoops, this thread is about singers you DON'T like  Better not get me started on any of the living ones!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Allanmcf said:


> There is also the fact that as far as I am aware, concert pitch has risen by about a tone over the last hundred years, so a recording of Caruso will always sound a bit lower than a modern recording. It's small wonder that modern singers careers are shorter without proper care being taken. Too frequent concerts, endless travel and the need to sing top A's and C's that are actually G's and B's makes it a wonder they have any voices left at all after ten years. Helga Dernesch springs to mind as one of musics great ruined voices. Just my thoughts by the way. Feel free to disagree.


Your point about the rise in concert pitch is too frequently forgotten. It's nice that the chaos that prevailed in the nineteenth century - different pitch in every city, singers feeling the difference and complaining bitterly - has yielded to near-standardization among the major orchestras. But for the performance of much of the concert and opera repertoire our pitches are unquestionably too high. I'm always amused when some fan points out gleefully that their favorite opera singer is doing something "in the original key" - "Casta diva," sung by Sutherland in the "original key" of G, comes to mind - when it's very likely that the key of G, as heard by Bellini, was not much higher than our key of F to which the aria is commonly transposed. It makes Sutherland's feat all the more impressive: she sings the music higher than Bellini ever intended it to be heard! Ensembles devoted to pre-19th-century repertoire have adopted lower pitches as a normal aspect of their pursuit of authenticity. It's too bad we can't do the same for Verdi and Wagner, whose interpreters have enough to contend with without being pushed constantly into the vocal stratosphere.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

As an afterthought on my previous diatribe I have always found it easier to tolerate a voice that is slightly sharp as opposed to a slightly flat one. Singing below the note really winds my wool but I can usually forgive someone who sings ever so slightly sharp so long as it is not all the way through the piece! To my ears Pavarotti had a tendency, when really forcing, to wander above the note particularly in his early years. But I can forgive him that for the fantastic singing he gave us when he was at his peak.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Totally agree Woodduck. Had already started posting before I realised you had. Btw I think I meant to say the A's and C's "should actually" be G's and B's not " are actually".


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Your point about the rise in concert pitch is too frequently forgotten. It's nice that the chaos that prevailed in the nineteenth century - different pitch in every city, singers feeling the difference and complaining bitterly - has yielded to near-standardization among the major orchestras. But for the performance of much of the concert and opera repertoire our pitches are unquestionably too high. I'm always amused when some fan points out gleefully that their favorite opera singer is doing something "in the original key" - "Casta diva," sung by Sutherland in the "original key" of G, comes to mind - when it's very likely that the key of G, as heard by Bellini, was not much higher than our key of F to which the aria is commonly transposed. It makes Sutherland's feat all the more impressive: she sings the music higher than Bellini ever intended it to be heard! Ensembles devoted to pre-19th-century repertoire have adopted lower pitches as a normal aspect of their pursuit of authenticity. It's too bad we can't do the same for Verdi and Wagner, whose interpreters have enough to contend with without being pushed constantly into the vocal stratosphere.


In Lanfranco Rasponi's book _The Last Prima Donnas_, Tebaldi rails about the constant rise in pitch of modern orchestras. Tebaldi, like Ponselle, had a short top (both singers would always make a downward transposition in _Sempre libera_) and for a soprano such as her, this rise in pitch must have been a nightmare.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Allanmcf said:


> As an afterthought on my previous diatribe I have always found it easier to tolerate a voice that is slightly sharp as opposed to a slightly flat one. Singing below the note really winds my wool but I can usually forgive someone who sings ever so slightly sharp so long as it is not all the way through the piece! To my ears Pavarotti had a tendency, when really forcing, to wander above the note particularly in his early years. But I can forgive him that for the fantastic singing he gave us when he was at his peak.


I read somewhere that some prima sopranos will purposely sing slightly sharp in large ensembles, as it allows their line to be heard more clearly.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> In Lanfranco Rasponi's book _The Last Prima Donnas_, Tebaldi rails about the constant rise in pitch of modern orchestras. Tebaldi, like Ponselle, had a short top (both singers would always make a downward transposition in _Sempre libera_) and for a soprano such as her, this rise in pitch must have been a nightmare.


Not Divina though.

She

did

it

_ALL._

_;D_


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Sorry to be wandering off-piste in this thread but given that modern orchestras tune to A above middle C on the oboe does the fault lie with the construction of the modern oboe or the reeds that are used today. It follows that pianos need to be tuned down a bit too. I think that A is set at 440 hertz but in Handel's day it was anything between 409 and 422. The former is too low at a tone and a half below modern pitch but probably 422 would be better now. It would definitely help singers and quite frankly only canary fanciers will notice the difference!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> I never thought Sills was shrill: she was one of the best singers of the modern era. Likewise Renee Doria, who seems to upset some people for similar reasons. I really liked Sills' Manon, though I confess I only bought it for the delectable Gerard Souzay!


I don't think of Sills as being shrill, but I do find the voice shallow, which is why I don't really like her in many of the _bel canto_ roles she sang. Norma and the three Donizetti queens would all seem to suggest a larger, rounder tone, something altogether grander than Sills could provide.

As it happens, I also like her Manon, finding her slightly fluttery tone much more suited to this French role. Ultimately I'd go for the greater warmth provided by a De Los Angeles, but I still find her Manon very convincing.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> But, as a Sutherland fan, doesn't it bother you that her coloratura technique is so effortful? Anything I've ever heard her sing from the _bel canto_ repertoire sounds laboured. I don't much like Fleming in that repertoire either, but she at least can negotiate the notes with ease.


Well, I do recognize that her coloratura is not on a level with Sutherland's. However, listening to her "Sempre Libera" disc and others, I find it's not as bad as people generally claim it is. At any rate, the sheer sound of Netrebko's voice -- that dark/light quality and the evenness of her scale -- for me make her singing a pleasure to listen to even with the less-than-perfect coloratura. It's similar to how the sound of Sutherland's voice and the ease of her coloratura compensate me for her muddy diction.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> Well, I do recognize that her coloratura is not on a level with Sutherland's. However, listening to her "Sempre Libera" disc and others, I find it's not as bad as people generally claim it is. At any rate, the sheer sound of Netrebko's voice -- that dark/light quality and the evenness of her scale -- for me make her singing a pleasure to listen to even with the less-than-perfect coloratura. It's similar to how the sound of Sutherland's voice and the ease of her coloratura compensate me for her muddy diction.


Well I think she might (just) get away with it in _Sempre libera_, but it really won't wash in the _bel canto_ roles she tries to sing. She is another one of those singers I don't respond to, and (I know I'm going to come in for a lot of shtick for saying this), when seen, I find her a somewhat vulgar actress and performer.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Somehow the voice of Licia Albanese sounds like a little old grandma. Fine actress though.


Wow, you've echoed my thoughts exactly! Something about the "character" of her voice on recordings sounds elderly to me. The timbre itself is attractive, but the "picture" that forms in my mind while listening to her is hardly that of a young woman. On top of that, I find her style of emoting old-fashioned: "Victorian" is the word that comes to mind.


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## Ivansen (Aug 8, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Well I think she might (just) get away with it in _Sempre libera_, but it really won't wash in the _bel canto_ roles she tries to sing. She is another one of those singers I don't respond to, and (I know I'm going to come in for a lot of shtick for saying this), when seen, I find her a somewhat vulgar actress and performer.


One man's vulgar is another man's sultry, and that's fair enough.

Re: last page: Must have been fun to work with such a star as Fleming. Even though I'm not a performer (in any way, shape or form) I am envious.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Your point about the rise in concert pitch is too frequently forgotten. It's nice that the chaos that prevailed in the nineteenth century - different pitch in every city, singers feeling the difference and complaining bitterly - has yielded to near-standardization among the major orchestras. But for the performance of much of the concert and opera repertoire our pitches are unquestionably too high. I'm always amused when some fan points out gleefully that their favorite opera singer is doing something "in the original key" - "Casta diva," sung by Sutherland in the "original key" of G, comes to mind - when it's very likely that the key of G, as heard by Bellini, was not much higher than our key of F to which the aria is commonly transposed. It makes Sutherland's feat all the more impressive: she sings the music higher than Bellini ever intended it to be heard! Ensembles devoted to pre-19th-century repertoire have adopted lower pitches as a normal aspect of their pursuit of authenticity. It's too bad we can't do the same for Verdi and Wagner, whose interpreters have enough to contend with without being pushed constantly into the vocal stratosphere.


There was a chaos, indeed, but the chaos was not always resulting on pitches lower than today, on the contrary, many times they were higher!. 

We have evidence from La Scala, where _Norma_ was premiered in 1831. When Verdi's_ Giovanna d'Arco _was premiered, in 1845, the pitch was 444. In 1856, a few years later, it was already 450!. Most probably, in Bellini's own times, the average pitch was between 440-445, with some places higher, and some places lower.

There is a very interesting book on the subject: "History of Performing Pitch: The Story of 'A'", by Bruce Haynes. I recommend this reading for people wanting to get some facts about this matter.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Well I think she might (just) get away with it in _Sempre libera_, but it really won't wash in the _bel canto_ roles she tries to sing.


apparently she's moved on from bel canto.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

deggial said:


> apparently she's moved on from bel canto.


For which relief much thanks.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

schigolch said:


> We have evidence from La Scala, where _Norma_ was premiered in 1831. When Verdi's_ Giovanna d'Arco _was premiered, in 1845, the pitch was 444. In 1856, a few years later, it was already 450!. Most probably, in Bellini's own times, the average pitch was between 440-445, with some places higher, and some places lower.


I am astonished that in 1856 the pitch was as high as 450. The singers of the day must have been under some considerable strain particularly if the tessitura was consistently high. I shall certainly try to read Haynes' book.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I believe that 450 Hz is less than half a semitone higher than 440.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Still a bit of a difference if you're trying to hit those C's that become D flats! I was really comparing the 456 with the norm for that time of less than 440. You can probably hit those high notes but you wouldn't want to be doing it all the time.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

schigolch said:


> There was a chaos, indeed, but the chaos was not always resulting on pitches lower than today, on the contrary, many times they were higher!.
> 
> We have evidence from La Scala, where _Norma_ was premiered in 1831. When Verdi's_ Giovanna d'Arco _was premiered, in 1845, the pitch was 444. In 1856, a few years later, it was already 450!. Most probably, in Bellini's own times, the average pitch was between 440-445, with some places higher, and some places lower.
> 
> There is a very interesting book on the subject: "History of Performing Pitch: The Story of 'A'", by Bruce Haynes. I recommend this reading for people wanting to get some facts about this matter.


Thanks for that information. It makes the complaints of singers of that day all the more understandable; some apparently even cancelled appearances in protest of the pitches at which they were expected to sing. I can also see why the downward transposition of "Casta diva" began with Giuditta Pasta herself, who was sometimes described as a mezzo-soprano in any case.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Yes, Giuditta Pasta was, in the terminology of the period, a soprano sfogato. There is a book on the subject of this kind of soprano during the first half of the 19th century: "The Assoluta Voice in Opera" by Geoffrey Riggs, that is kind of interesting, though I wouldn't endorsed everything that is mentioned in the book (starting with the title itself. In Italian, the correct name would be 'soprano assoluto', not 'assoluta' ).

It's also true that Bellini wrote Casta Diva in G major. In fact, the whole scena was conceived as:

Chorus: E-flat major

Recitative: E-flat major
Cavatina "Casta Diva": G major (Bellini agreed with Pasta that she could sing the piece in F major. Indeed, in the first piano reduction published by Ricordi in 1831, it was in F major).
Tempo di mezzo: E-flat major
Cabaletta "Bello a me ritorna": F major

Personally, I feel that the link between the cavatina in F major and the tempo di mezzo in E-flat major is a little bit forced, and the original G major provides a more satisfactory progression. But singing the role of Norma, even if there are significant, and difficult, coloratura passages, the most important things are rather the expresiveness and the drama. That's why many spinto or dramatic sopranos can succesfully approach the role, even if most of them don't have the ability of Joan Sutherland to sing in the original keys.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

schigolch said:


> That's why many spinto or dramatic sopranos can succesfully approach the role, even if most of them don't have the ability of Joan Sutherland to sing in the original keys.


I'm not so sure they do sing it with that much success. Cigna, for instance, approximated much of the coloratura, and even Jane Eaglen with Muti doesn't sound entirely at home with the writing. It seems we have gone back to putting the roles of Norma and Amina into separate camps, the former dramatic, the latter light, but both roles were written for Pasta. Callas and Sutherland sang both roles with success, but has anyone else since?


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## Philmwri (Apr 8, 2011)

I remember watching Cecilia Bartoli's Maria Malibran DVD. She was going through the scores and they were talking about how Giuditta Pasta couldn't sing it in G so Bellini lowered it to F. She could sing high notes but she wasn't not comfortable singing in that range all the time.She could never really handle the soprano tessitura like Maria Malibran. He did actually adapt the role the her voice but he died shortly thereafter.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Well, I was thinking more on Cerquetti, than on Cigna, even if Cigna was indeed able to sing in the original keys, though slow, slow,... (and I was certainly *not* thinking on Jane Eaglen at all).

If by success we mean Callas or Sutherland level of success, I think no one has yet been able since their times to tackle both Amina and Norma.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Philmwri said:


> I remember watching Cecilia Bartoli's Maria Malibran DVD. She was going through the scores and they were talking about how Giuditta Pasta couldn't sing it in G so Bellini lowered it to F. She could sing high notes but she wasn't not comfortable singing in that range all the time.She could never really handle the soprano tessitura like Maria Malibran. He did actually adapt the role the her voice but he died shortly thereafter.


Have you got that the right way round? Malibran was more of a mezzo, and actually often referred to as a contralto, and many _bel canto_ roles were transposed down to suit her, Amina in *La Sonnambula* and _Maria Stuarda_ being the two most famous examples. Janet Baker sang the role of Maria in the Malibran keys, and Von Stade sang Amina in the Malibran version when she sang the role here at Covent Garden some years ago. Pasta is always considered a soprano, though, as Shigolch points out, a soprano sfogato, a term often used to describe Callas in her early years, when people were finding it hard to categorise her.

I know Bartoli's exhumations are all very scholarly but I find her *Norma* a travesty. A great tragedy becomes a domestic little drama. I'm sure it's not what Bellini intended, and for my money, a greater authenticity lies in the versions by Callas, Sutherland and Caballe, whatever edition they were using. As for Bartoli, her Norma lacks grandeur and her Amina lacks poetry. I never want to listen to either again.


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## Philmwri (Apr 8, 2011)

I love Bartoli's Norma but I think that her voice is too light/small for the role. Monserrat Caballe was an awesome Norma. Malibran was a mezzo and she never claimed to be a soprano but she could sing almost anything. Bartoli,Baker, and Von Stade performed the roles in their original key. Adelina Patti and Fanny Persiani were the ones who sang it higher and that became the standard. Lucia had no e flats in the original score nor did Lucrezia Borgia. Sopranos took quite a few roles and raised them.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Philmwri said:


> I love Bartoli's Norma but I think that her voice is too light/small for the role. Monserrat Caballe was an awesome Norma. Malibran was a mezzo and she never claimed to be a soprano but she could sing almost anything. Bartoli,Baker, and Von Stade performed the roles in their original key. Adelina Patti and Fanny Persiani were the ones who sang it higher and that became the standard. Lucia had no e flats in the original score nor did Lucrezia Borgia. Sopranos took quite a few roles and raised them.


You're wrong about *La Sonnambula * which was written for Pasta. Bellini transposed it for Malibran. Same with *Maria Stuarda*. Donizetti made downward transpositions for Malibran, and this is the version Baker sang. It's actually documented in the Ponto issue of the recording of Baker's first Maria with the ENO, when Pauline Tinsley (a soprano) was Elisabetta.

The original keys in *Lucia* were actually higher than the traditional ones and this is the version Caballe recorded, with no interpolated high notes. Subsequently sopranos made _downward_ transpositions, so that they could add those top Ebs.


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## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

Sine I am a tenorholic, there are several whose singing I find less than pleasant:

James McCracken
Barry Morrell
John Alexander
Sandor Konya
Antonio Siragusa


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

JohnGerald said:


> Sine I am a tenorholic, there are several whose singing I find less than pleasant:
> 
> James McCracken
> Barry Morrell
> ...


I don't like McCracken's sinigng very much either. Most of the others on your list I've never heard, save for Alexander, whom I like very much in the first Sutherland NORMA recording; I think he was underrated as Pollione. If there's a musical instrument his voice reminds me of, it's a trumpet.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I heard Alexander about three times live, when he was taking on more dramatic roles, and enjoyed the performances. But, of course, that's my reaction. I'm a "tenorholic," too, and there are quite a few who, from an objective standpoint, I know were/are great singers, but whose voices I just can't warm up to.


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## jdcbr (Jul 21, 2014)

I think Mariella Devia only had three MET broadcasts, and only sang "Entfuhrung" with Levine. are you somehow confusing her with Scotto?


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## jdcbr (Jul 21, 2014)

I am astonished that so many people dislike Pavarotti! I think it was a fabulous, open Italian sound and that he sang with great slancio and feel for the Italian language. I don't enjoy watching him at all, but love the sound.
As for the three "modern" tenors mentioned early on- JDF, Viilazon and Kaufmann- I must say that I find JDF's voice to be colorless and nasal, though his technique is astonishing, Villazon always sounded like he was pushing, pushing and pushing his voice beyond it's natural limitations (which he WAS, as it turns out). Kaufmann is a great musician and I find his high notes remarkable for such a dark, baritonal sound. Reminds me a lot of Giuseppe Giacomini, or Cura- though he is so-o-o sloppy.
One singer that always drove me crazy was Gwyneth Jones. The only thing I ever heard from her that explained her career was the early recording of Otello. After that, she was truly La Scoopenda! Imagine she and Nucci together.
A lot of what has been expressed in this thread is the age-old "stimm" vs "kunst" argument.
Personally, I can forgive a lot of flaws for the sake of a great overall performance (say Callas or Scotto) with plenty of authentic style (say Millo)' but cannot get past constant basic issues of pitch and rhythm, etc.( say Gallardo-Domas)
Getting back to the original post- I would include Corelli, for the same reasons others have, F-D and Schwarzkopf, for the same reasons others have, and maybe add Gheorghiu of more recent singers. I hear her as flat a good bit of the time and just don't get what the fuss is about. I saw her in "Traviata" at the Met (with Kaufmann - his debut, I think). Saw is the operative word, as she was barely audible. Fleming, whirs voice I do not think of as large at all, projected much better in the same production.
One singer with an unconventional voive that has blown me away live is Radvanovsky. Her Met "Normas" were something to behold- seriously. We are talking Callas-class here! But then, I know plenty of people who think she has an ugly voice and terrible pitch. I have to say, I think her pitch is so spot-on, that it freaks a lot of people out. We are very dues to wider vibratos that drag the pitch up, less commonly, down (Ricciarelli). Truly dead-on pitch is almost freaky.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

jdcbr said:


> I am astonished that so many people dislike Pavarotti! I think it was a fabulous, open Italian sound and that he sang with great slancio and feel for the Italian language. I don't enjoy watching him at all, but love the sound.


I'd have to agree with you here. Pavarotti is by no means my favourite tenor, but the sound itself was so open, so free, with no hint of effort, and his diction just about perfect, so good that you can hear just how bad his pronunciation is when he's singing in French. It was if he just opened his mouth and the sound poured out.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

I don't like Kathleen Ferrier, though admittedly I never got much further than 'Che faro senza Eurydice'- or 'Oy-ree-dee-chay' as she would have it. I don't like that hooted tone. Did our grandparents' generation really think that she was greatest singer around? Oy-ree-diculous!

As something of an antiquarian tenor enthusiast, I feel that I should like Alessandro Bonci, but I can't listen to his voice at all. I try every so often, but without success.

I don't like Marcel Journet nearly as much as many people seem to. Very beautiful voice on his acoustic recordings, but I find his singing characterless, and at times even dour.

I'm glad the OP mentioned Pavarotti and Domingo already, so I don't have to!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> I don't like Kathleen Ferrier, though admittedly I never got much further than 'Che faro senza Eurydice'- or 'Oy-ree-dee-chay' as she would have it. I don't like that hooted tone. Did our grandparents' generation really think that she was greatest singer around? Oy-ree-diculous!
> 
> As something of an antiquarian tenor enthusiast, I feel that I should like Alessandro Bonci, but I can't listen to his voice at all. I try every so often, but without success.
> 
> ...


Kathleen Ferrier was indeed a very great singer, and a lot of today's singers could learn a lot from her natural unforced delivery in English. (Why do none of them sing words anymore?). She was revered by the conductor Bruno Walter, and her Mahler recordings with him are legendary. Also by Benjamin Britten, who wrote Lucretia for her in *The Rape of Lucretia*. Barbirolli revered her too.

She was a genuine contralto, a voice type that went out of fashion, and I don't find her hooty at all, though I do her predecessor Clara Butt. What doesn't go out of fashion is the full-hearted sincerity she brought to everything she did, something noted by such modern mezzos as Joyce DiDonato.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Maybe I will give Ferrier another try. I must admit I do like Clara Butt- more for the novelty value of those freaky, masculine chest tones than as an artist!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Kathleen Ferrier was indeed a very great singer, and a lot of today's singers could learn a lot from her natural unforced delivery in English. (Why do none of them sing words anymore?). She was revered by the conductor Bruno Walter, and her Mahler recordings with him are legendary. Also by Benjamin Britten, who wrote Lucretia for her in *The Rape of Lucretia*. Barbirolli revered her too.
> 
> She was a genuine contralto, a voice type that went out of fashion, and I don't find her hooty at all, though I do her predecessor Clara Butt. What doesn't go out of fashion is the full-hearted sincerity she brought to everything she did, something noted by such modern mezzos as Joyce DiDonato.


I have great respect for Ferrier for all the reasons you mention, but must admit to not being a fan. God knows we could use a few more real contraltos for those weird old crone roles - the witches and grandmothers and green-faced torsos that pop out of the ground saying "Weiche, Wotan, Weiche!" - but there's a sound in Ferrier's tone that just bothers me: a sort of constantly present "r" sound that's present in every vowel. Maybe that's what Figlaf means by "hootiness." Anyway, I blush in shame to admit having even a sliver of a scintilla of dislike for this great singer and lovely lady.

Clara Butt is a hoot in more ways than one. The name itself is so - so - anatomical.  I hope we can't judge her fairly by her recordings.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I have great respect for Ferrier for all the reasons you mention, but must admit to not being a fan. God knows we could use a few more real contraltos for those weird old crone roles - the witches and grandmothers and green-faced torsos that pop out of the ground saying "Weiche, Wotan, Weiche!" - but there's a sound in Ferrier's tone that just bothers me: a sort of constantly present "r" sound that's present in every vowel. Maybe that's what Figlaf means by "hootiness." Anyway, I blush in shame to admit having even a sliver of a scintilla of dislike for this great singer and lovely lady.


It's as well to remember that Ferrier was quite young when she died, 41, which is certainly young for a contralto. Much of her best work (the Mahler with Walter for instance) is from her later years. Before that she often recorded with poor accompanists; the conducting on that *Orfeo* is beyond bad. That phosphorescent, almost bottomless lower register took a long time to settle down and become integrated with the rest of the voice.

Here singing without accompaniment, with flawless diction, she sings with a directness and simplicity that is completely disarming,






And here with Bruno Walter in Mahler's *Um Mitternacht*, she could almost be Erda (and how wonderfully she might have sung that role). Not even Baker is so moving in this song.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

I agree, jdcbr and gregmitchell. I really like that Pavarotti maintained a clean sounding vibrato even into his old age.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Here singing without accompaniment, with flawless diction, she sings with a directness and simplicity that is completely disarming,


ok, that was lovely.


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## TravisTouchdown (Aug 17, 2014)

BevSills said:


> The lady in question: Mariella Devia. I never saw her in person, but I heard her a lot on the MET broadcasts and she always left me cold. I have never understood James Levine's obsession with her.
> View attachment 47282


I don't know her, but I can immediately understand anyone's obsession with her from your post.


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## TravisTouchdown (Aug 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> And here with Bruno Walter in Mahler's *Um Mitternacht*, she could almost be Erda (and how wonderfully she might have sung that role).


In the first minute, she sounds as much like a countertenor as I've ever heard a female. Distinct voice, for what it's worth.


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

Edita Gruberova is someone whom I don't like at all - but for some reason the rest of the world adores her! I find her voice odd and her performances uninteresting. And plus she's not a very good musician.

I don't know whether I would class Cecilia Bartoli as 'good', but so many people love her. She is just a woman with a mediocre voice and the ability to sing very, very fast. Her singing is breathy, her voice small, her high notes constricted and forced, her coloratura sounds like a machine gun and she has an annoying tendency to whisper rather than actually SING.

There are some singers, like Carreras and Ricciarelli, that were very, very good at their good moments and very, very bad during their bad ones. I can't make up my mind about either.

Now we come to Maria Callas. She was the greatest singing actress of all time, but I just don't like her voice that much. I have warmed slightly to her, but her voice was just ugly and unpolished.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

BaronScarpia said:


> I don't know whether I would class Cecilia Bartoli as 'good', but so many people love her. She is just a woman with a mediocre voice and the ability to sing very, very fast. Her singing is breathy, her voice small, her high notes constricted and forced, her coloratura sounds like a machine gun and she has an annoying tendency to whisper rather than actually SING.


mostly agreeing with you except for the comment on the size of her voice. It's small yes, but why does it matter? She's usually singing in a repertoire where a big voice isn't necessary.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

deggial said:


> mostly agreeing with you except for the comment on the size of her voice. It's small yes, but why does it matter? She's usually singing in a repertoire where a big voice isn't necessary.


I'd argue that the role of Norma suggests a larger voice than Bartoli provides, and certainly one with more inherent nobility.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BaronScarpia said:


> Now we come to Maria Callas. She was the greatest singing actress of all time, but I just don't like her voice that much. I have warmed slightly to her, but her voice was just ugly and unpolished.


Ugliness and beauty are in the ears of the beholder I suppose, but have you heard her 1952 *Armida*, her 1953 Florence *Medea*, her 1952 *Macbeth*, or any number of other great live performances. I can assure you there is absolutely nothing unpolished about her singing in any of these. Most singers would kill for such ease of production and facility in coloratura, not to mention her psychological insight, whilst rendering the score with a great deal more accuracy than most. You may find her voice ugly, but to call her unpolished is to completely misunderstand singing and vocal technique.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> I'd argue that the role of Norma suggests a larger voice than Bartoli provides, and certainly one with more inherent nobility.


agreed, hence why I said "usually". I'm not a fan of her venturing out of Baroque in general.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by BaronScarpia
> 
> Now we come to Maria Callas. She was the greatest singing actress of all time, but I just don't like her voice that much. I have warmed slightly to her, but her voice was just ugly and unpolished.
> 
> GregMitchell: Ugliness and beauty are in the ears of the beholder I suppose, but have you heard her 1952 Armida, her 1953 Florence Medea, her 1952 Macbeth, or any number of other great live performances. I can assure you there is absolutely nothing unpolished about her singing in any of these. Most singers would kill for such ease of production and facility in coloratura, not to mention her psychological insight, whilst rendering the score with a great deal more accuracy than most. You may find her voice ugly, but to call her unpolished is to completely misunderstand singing and vocal technique.


. . . or her '55 Karajan _Lucia_, her '57 Cologne Votto _Sonnambula_, her '58 Covent Garden _Traviata_, her December 7, '55 La Scala _Norma _, or just about anything else from her mid-fifties-on-back _oeuvre_.

Polish, poise, technique, expressivity, beauty, drama, ferocity. . . and absolutely _sublime_ beyond measure-- and with thousands of nuances of psychological portraiture. . .

Its high time to balance some of these gratuitously-expressed antagonisms with a little reality check.

Divina was never conciliatory, nor am I.


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Ugliness and beauty are in the ears of the beholder I suppose, but have you heard her 1952 *Armida*, her 1953 Florence *Medea*, her 1952 *Macbeth*, or any number of other great live performances. I can assure you there is absolutely nothing unpolished about her singing in any of these. Most singers would kill for such ease of production and facility in coloratura, not to mention her psychological insight, whilst rendering the score with a great deal more accuracy than most. You may find her voice ugly, but to call her unpolished is to completely misunderstand singing and vocal technique.


While I understand where you're coming from, I don't think it's very nice to say that I completely misunderstand singing and vocal technique - I can assure you that is not the case 

There is not a single opera singer, living or dead, whose acting skills can be compared to those of Maria Callas. She was, as I said, the greatest singing actress. I agree with your comment about psychological insight, too; her interpretations are in my mind unrivalled. Her musicianship was one of her greatest assets - the singers of today could learn a lot by listening to her Norma or Lady Macbeth, for example.

Maria Callas was, in my opinion, the ultimate interpreter of some roles, such as the two I cited above. When I said her singing was unpolished (and I stand by that description) I referred solely to her voice. Her voice was not a thing of beauty; it was rough, with a sort of (for want of a better word) gravelly edge to it. That didn't stop her from mesmerising audiences, and it didn't stop her Norma being the only one (including those of Sutherland and Caballé) to truly move me. Her voice had a 
transcendent, transformative and 'transporting' quality. She was the only true _diva_ of the 20th century.

Perhaps the way I wrote my post made it sound like I hated Callas, but that is certainly not the truth. I did not make it clear that I do not like her _later_ recordings (I obviously never saw her live!). I also think that her voice was too 'hefty' to sing roles like Elvira and Amina and other lyric coloratura roles. Joan Sutherland was a dramatic coloratura soprano like Callas (in the sense that they share a Fach, I'm not saying they were similar in any other way), but Joan had a brighter, lighter voice - it was more well-rounded, so she could sing lighter rep too. I think the best roles for Callas were dramatic ones, like Lady Macbeth, Norma, Tosca, Aida and so on.


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

deggial said:


> mostly agreeing with you except for the comment on the size of her voice. It's small yes, but why does it matter? She's usually singing in a repertoire where a big voice isn't necessary.


I suppose it's just a personal preference. I like BIG voices, in all repertoires. Of course, a Wagnerian sop is bound to have a voice ten times the size of a baroque one, but all the singers I _really_ like have *full* voices with rich timbres. Bartoli's voice is also narrow, and as she doesn't have any redeeming features other than her musicality, I don't really like her all that much. With some singers, like Simone Kermes, who has a sweet-sounding, warm voice, I overlook vocal size and can simply enjoy the sound. But Bartoli doesn't have a warm timbre or a sweet-sounding voice, so that doesn't apply to her!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BaronScarpia said:


> While I understand where you're coming from, I don't think it's very nice to say that I completely misunderstand singing and vocal technique - I can assure you that is not the case
> 
> There is not a single opera singer, living or dead, whose acting skills can be compared to those of Maria Callas. She was, as I said, the greatest singing actress. I agree with your comment about psychological insight, too; her interpretations are in my mind unrivalled. Her musicianship was one of her greatest assets - the singers of today could learn a lot by listening to her Norma or Lady Macbeth, for example.
> 
> ...


Unpolished was maybe an unwise word, then. It suggests a sketchy technique, an inability to render the score accurately, something Callas was particularly adept at. In fact Grace Bumbry once said that if you wrote down what Callas sang, you would exactly reproduce what was in the score, so faithful was she to every line, every dot, every expression.

You state that her voice was not a thing of beauty. It may not be so for you, but I, and many others think that that multi-expressive, multi-coloured voice of hers _could_ be a thing of great beauty. She sings _Al dolce guidami_ from *Anna Bolena*, for instance, with a kind of disembodied beauty out of the reach of more conventionally beautiful voices, her _legato_ impeccable. Sure it took on a hard edge when expressing unbridled rage or hate, but those are not exactly emotions that ask for beauty of timbre. If beauty is truth and truth beauty, then I'd say Callas assuredly had a beautiful voice.

I also love her Amina, which incidentally was written for the same singer Bellini wrote *Norma* for. She brings to it a pathos and a humanity that few others can equal, let alone surpass, and, even at the end of her career in a TV concert from Paris, when her voice is frail and thin, she can spin out a Bellinian line like nobody else. It's almost unbearably moving. Then I think about her Gilda, her voice so pure and virginal. It's hard to believe it's the same singer who is also the perfect Norma.

A great singing actress, yes, but, if that's all she was, her records wouldn't still be selling today. It's her voice, not her acting, that continues to speak to people, and it's the reason that, even now, 37 years after her death and almost 50 years since she last appeared on stage, her name still sells records. I suppose the fact that she is as controversial now as she was on stage is also testament to her greatness.

I'd use by comparison someone like Teresa Stratas, also a great singing actress. Every time I've _seen_ her, on film or on TV, she has been phenomenal. A great stage actress, absolutely no doubt, but purely as a singer she leaves much to be desired.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Unpolished was maybe an unwise word, then. It suggests a sketchy technique, an inability to render the score accurately, something Callas was particularly adept at. In fact Grace Bumbry once said that if you wrote down what Callas sang, you would exactly reproduce what was in the score, so faithful was she to every line, every dot, every expression.
> 
> You state that her voice was not a thing of beauty. It may not be so for you, but I, and many others think that that multi-expressive, multi-coloured voice of hers _could_ be a thing of great beauty. She sings _Al dolce guidami_ from *Anna Bolena*, for instance, with a kind of disembodied beauty out of the reach of more conventionally beautiful voices, her _legato_ impeccable. Sure it took on a hard edge when expressing unbridled rage or hate, but those are not exactly emotions that ask for beauty of timbre. If beauty is truth and truth beauty, then I'd say Callas assuredly had a beautiful voice.
> 
> ...


This is a beautiful post. Thank you.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

BaronScarpia said:


> but all the singers I _really_ like have *full* voices with rich timbres. Bartoli's voice is also narrow, and as she doesn't have any redeeming features other than her musicality, I don't really like her all that much


ok, that makes sense and I'm again in agreement with you.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

GregMitchell said:


> I know Bartoli's exhumations are all very scholarly but I find her *Norma* a travesty. A great tragedy becomes a domestic little drama. I'm sure it's not what Bellini intended, and for my money, a greater authenticity lies in the versions by Callas, Sutherland and Caballe, whatever edition they were using. As for Bartoli, her Norma lacks grandeur and her Amina lacks poetry. I never want to listen to either again.


*One must know your limits......*

Bartoli's voice is so vibrato heavy in the demanding parts the vocal line just falls apart, and I feel no emotion in her performance, where is the soul of the music.......
*
The "fine al rito/ah! bello a me ritorna" sequence that follows cast diva *is such a great great sequence as Norma defiantly tells her followers roman blood will soon be spilled and her voice will thunder from the temple (callas erupts like a volcano here).....then suddenly tenderly her love for Pollione causes her doubts as she remembers the carefree happy days of their early love and laments why can they not return to her and bring her heart joy again.....

What a stark difference between Bartoli vs Callas here, this is why Callas is so revered and adored


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Unpolished was maybe an unwise word, then. It suggests a sketchy technique, an inability to render the score accurately, something Callas was particularly adept at. In fact Grace Bumbry once said that if you wrote down what Callas sang, you would exactly reproduce what was in the score, so faithful was she to every line, every dot, every expression.
> 
> You state that her voice was not a thing of beauty. It may not be so for you, but I, and many others think that that multi-expressive, multi-coloured voice of hers _could_ be a thing of great beauty. She sings _Al dolce guidami_ from *Anna Bolena*, for instance, with a kind of disembodied beauty out of the reach of more conventionally beautiful voices, her _legato_ impeccable. Sure it took on a hard edge when expressing unbridled rage or hate, but those are not exactly emotions that ask for beauty of timbre. If beauty is truth and truth beauty, then I'd say Callas assuredly had a beautiful voice.
> 
> ...


I think the main thing on which we disagree here is terminology. I think her voice was unpolished; by that I mean it was somewhat rough, like an uncut precious stone. That roughness and unbridled quality was what made her voice so fascinating.

You talk of conventional beauty - I think you've hit the nail on its proverbial head, there. I consider a beautiful voice to be a pure, well-rounded one. Joan Sutherland had a beautiful voice, as did Luciano Pavarotti, and as does Angela Gheorghiu. I'm very glad we have had this discussion, as it has helped me to consider the possibility that beauty of voice does not necessarily require absolute 'perfection'.

I had no idea that Amina was also written for Pasta. This is something that surprises me; I am used to hearing Amina sung by 'canary-bird sopranos' as Joan Sutherland would have said, such as Dessay and Serra. I think that perhaps I should try and broaden my tastes. I just can't seem to get over certain aspects of Callas's voice, like the way it seems to sometimes clumsily 'overspill', for want of a better word, when singing, and her thin, wispy high notes.

I don't believe I ever said that Callas was only a great-singing actress. I made several other very complimentary comments about her, actually! I want to thank you for opening my eyes to Maria Callas, GregMitchell. I predict that I shall be listening to more of her in the future!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BaronScarpia said:


> and her thin, wispy high notes.


May I direct you, then, to some of her performances in the early 1950s when her high notes were anything but thin and wispy. Indeed in 1951 in Mexico, she interpolates a top Eb into the Triumphal Scene in *Aida*, so powerful that it drowns out everything else.

Or this 1949 recording of the Mad Scene from *I Puritani*, which she caps with a massive top Eb of massive proportions. But of course Callas was about much more than high notes; this is great singing, the cavatina more molded than sung, her portamenti exquisite, the cabaletta dazzlingly accurate, those downward scales emerging like the sighs of a wounded soul. No wonder she created a sensation when she first sang the role in Venice in 1949, deputising for an indisposed Margarita Carosio, and learning the role in days whilst still singing Brunnhilde in *Die Walkure*. More used to hear bird-like sopranos showing off their high notes and colortura technique, Callas's large lyric-dramatic voice was a revelation in the role and put her career on a whole different path.


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> May I direct you, then, to some of her performances in the early 1950s when her high notes were anything but thin and wispy. Indeed in 1951 in Mexico, she interpolates a top Eb into the Triumphal Scene in *Aida*, so powerful that it drowns out everything else.
> 
> Or this 1949 recording of the Mad Scene from *I Puritani*, which she caps with a massive top Eb of massive proportions. But of course Callas was about much more than high notes; this is great singing, the cavatina more molded than sung, her portamenti exquisite, the cabaletta dazzlingly accurate, those downward scales emerging like the sighs of a wounded soul. No wonder she created a sensation when she first sang the role in Venice in 1949, deputising for an indisposed Margarita Carosio, and learning the role in days whilst still singing Brunnhilde in *Die Walkure*. More used to hear bird-like sopranos showing off their high notes and colortura technique, Callas's large lyric-dramatic voice was a revelation in the role and put her career on a whole different path.


You really won't give up, will you? 

That Puritani E-flat is, I grant you, one of the best I've ever heard. The Aida is even better.

Here's an example of what I don't like (in terms of high notes, that is):





 - Lucia, 1957




 - Amina, also 1957

In her later years, her vibrato slowed and you could the strain she was putting on her voice, as in the above clips. I've lost track of why we're having this discussion, to be honest, and I've run out of points to make! Can we end the discussion here, and perhaps return the thread to its original topic?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BaronScarpia said:


> You really won't give up, will you?
> 
> That Puritani E-flat is, I grant you, one of the best I've ever heard. The Aida is even better.
> 
> ...


Where great art is concerned, no I never give up  And Callas was first and foremost a great artist. Most singers are just singers.

I did click on the two youtube clips you posted and still find them better than any other singer in either of the two arias. Others may have sung them with prettier tone or sounds that fall easier on the ear. You can close your eyes, listen to the pretty tune, and the pretty voice, and virtually forget everything else, but Callas constantly reveals the deeper meaning of the music.

To return to the original topic, pretty much _all_ my favourite singers are ones whose voices might be considered idiosyncratic. Sutherland is a singer I admire (in her early days anyway) for the technique and the beauty of the voice. However she rarely, if ever, really _speaks_ to me, or moves me, and that is my problem.

My first post in this thread discussed really good singers I don't really respond to rather than actively dislike, and Sutherland would be one of those. Jessye Norman is another.

Maybe Bartoli is the only one I can think of whom I actively dislike.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Where great art is concerned, no I never give up  And Callas was first and foremost a great artist. Most singers are just singers.I did click on the two youtube clips you posted and still find them better than any other singer in either of the two arias. Others may have sung them with prettier tone or sounds that fall easier on the ear. You can close your eyes, listen to the pretty tune, and the pretty voice, and virtually forget everything else, but Callas constantly reveals the deeper meaning of the music.
> 
> To return to the original topic, pretty much _all_ my favourite singers are ones whose voices might be considered idiosyncratic. Sutherland is a singer I admire (in her early days anyway) for the technique and the beauty of the voice. However she rarely, if ever, really _speaks_ to me, or moves me, and that is my problem.
> 
> ...


Speaking for myself, as thrilling as I think a perfectly-floated-and-intoned _Puritani_ E-flat _is_, truly-great opera and singing is so much more than that.

It needs to connect on an intellectual and emotional communicative plane.

If it didn't, then I could just listen to good yoedelers with great E-flats. . . well, not really.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

The title of is topic is not good for this "artist" because she is actually is not good at all.
( in my humble opinion)

Lucia Aliberti, goodness me, is this woman the wannabe imitation Callas or what ?

This is horrible to listen to.
I can't find anything good about this voice.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Pugg said:


> The title of is topic is not good for this "artist" because she is actually is not good at all.
> ( in my humble opinion)
> 
> Lucia Aliberti, goodness me, is this woman the wannabe imitation Callas or what ?
> ...


One of the worst of the Callas imitators, she had a sudden burst of fame, and was hired by Covent Garden to sing Violetta, but was sacked before she even made the first night. Her last minute replacement was none other than Ileana Cotrubas, so we all gained in the end.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> One of the worst of the Callas imitators, she had a sudden burst of fame, and was hired by Covent Garden to sing Violetta, but was sacked before she even made the first night. Her last minute replacement was none other than Ileana Cotrubas, so we all gained in the end.


So you see: sometimes we do agree on things :lol:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Pugg said:


> The title of is topic is not good for this "artist" because she is actually is not good at all.
> ( in my humble opinion)
> 
> Lucia Aliberti, goodness me, is this woman the wannabe imitation Callas or what ?
> ...


I agree 100%. For the life of me, I've never been able to understand why a singer should fail to discern the difference between a legendary artist's great qualities and his/her faults, and fail to emulate the former rather than the latter.


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

I would sincerely like to hear in the recordings of Maria Callas whatever her enraptured devotees have been hearing. I'm hoping an impending go-round with the 1955 La Scala Traviata may do the trick.

However, I will never understand "She may not have had a beautiful voice, but..." In opera, that's not optional! And whatever partial compensation she could achieve with her physical acting counts for nothing on the recordings.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ribonucleic said:


> I would sincerely like to hear in the recordings of Maria Callas whatever her enraptured devotees have been hearing. I'm hoping an impending go-round with the 1955 La Scala Traviata may do the trick.
> 
> However, I will never understand "She may not have had a beautiful voice, but..." In opera, that's not optional! And whatever partial compensation she could achieve with her physical acting counts for nothing on the recordings.


I fear then that there is no hope for you and you will always walk in the valleys of the benighted. I and others have written plenty here and elsewhere to explain Callas's uncanny genius. If you don't get it, you don't get it, and that's all there is to it. I feel sorry for you. I really do, but nothing I or anyone else says to you is likely to change that.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm among the many fans of Jonas Kaufmann, but there are individuals who don't especially like his voice. I don't feel sorry for them; they simply don't find the sound of his voice appealing, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I (and many others) think he has an uncommonly beautiful voice, but that doesn't make my taste and/or judgment somehow superior to that of those who don't. Nor am I offended when people express negative opinions about his singing or that of some of my other favorite singers. Our tastes differ -- so?


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Callas's uncanny genius


I don't doubt that great singers can achieve marvels of expression despite the shortcomings of their instrument.

However, in the matter of Callas, I wonder if such claims have been exaggerated. Not speaking of you personally, of course, there seem those eager to romantically conflate her personal struggles with her vocal ones.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ribonucleic said:


> I don't doubt that great singers can achieve marvels of expression despite the shortcomings of their instrument.
> 
> However, in the matter of Callas, I wonder if such claims have been exaggerated. Not speaking of you personally, of course, there seem those eager to romantically conflate her personal struggles with her vocal ones.


Not in the least exaggerated. She was _tout court_ one of the greatest musicians to ever grace the operatic stage, admired by conductors such as Serafin, Karajan, Bernstein, De Sabata, Giulini, Gavazzeni and even Klemperer, (Solti didn't like her, but then I don't have much time for him), instrumentalists llike Victoria Mullova, who said Callas was a revelation when she came to the West, and Claudio Arrau, who would play his students records of Callas singing Bellini in an effort to make them understand how to phrase Chopin, not to mention other singers like Jon Vickers, Bjoerling, Schwarzkopf, Ricciarelli, Cotrubas, Corelli, Gobbi, Grace Bumbry, Gheroghiu and Fleming.

Victor De Sabata once said to Walter Legge, "If the public could understand, as we do, how deeply musical she is, it would be amazed." The more _I_ listen to her the more I _am_ amazed. Callas doesn't just sing the notes, she reveals the music behind them, she makes sense of it, but if you can't hear it, you can't and that's that.

There are plenty of singers with more conventionally beautiful voices, whom I find as dull as ditchwater. Maybe that's my loss, but I'll live with it.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> _ Originally Posted by ribonucleic View Post
> 
> I would sincerely like to hear in the recordings of Maria Callas whatever her enraptured devotees have been hearing. I'm hoping an impending go-round with the 1955 La Scala Traviata may do the trick.
> 
> However, I will never understand "She may not have had a beautiful voice, but..." In opera, that's not optional! And whatever partial compensation she could achieve with her physical acting counts for nothing on the recordings._





GregMitchell said:


> I fear then that there is no hope for you and you will always walk in the valleys of the benighted. I and others have written plenty here and elsewhere to explain Callas's uncanny genius. If you don't get it, you don't get it, and that's all there is to it. I feel sorry for you. I really do, but nothing I or anyone else says to you is likely to change that.



















That of course _is _funny. . . in a hideous-sort-of way.

Such fatuous malice reminds me of the gargoyle in Ridley Scott's film _Legend_, who, upon catching a glimpse of an exotic-and-gorgeous unicorn that is ensconced in the woods, remarks: "Ugly one-horned mule."

Gargoyles, orcs, . . . 'trolls'-- all one and the same.

Callas' singing is for the Ages. All you have to do is to _listen_.

So, in conclusion: as was written about another genius, but _a fortiori_ more applicable to Divina:

Si monumentum requiris, circumspice.


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I fear then that there is no hope for you and you will always walk in the valleys of the benighted. I and others have written plenty here and elsewhere to explain Callas's uncanny genius. If you don't get it, you don't get it, and that's all there is to it. I feel sorry for you. I really do, but nothing I or anyone else says to you is likely to change that.


Thou hast been damned, ribonucleic! FYI, you _really_ don't want to get into a 'discussion' with the above poster


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by GregMitchell View Post
> 
> I fear then that there is no hope for you and you will always walk in the valleys of the benighted. I and others have written plenty here and elsewhere to explain Callas's uncanny genius. If you don't get it, you don't get it, and that's all there is to it. I feel sorry for you. I really do, but nothing I or anyone else says to you is likely to change that.





BaronScarpia said:


> Thou hast been damned, ribonucleic! FYI, you _really_ don't want to get into a 'discussion' with the above poster


No, don't do _that_.

You might learn something.


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> No, don't do _that_.
> 
> You might learn something.


And that would be simply _terrible_, wouldn't it?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> _Quote Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
> 
> No, don't do that.
> 
> You might learn something._





> _BaronScarpia: And that would be simply terrible, wouldn't it? _


Taste is anything but.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> GregMitchell: Not in the least exaggerated. She was tout court one of the greatest musicians to ever grace the operatic stage, admired by conductors such as Serafin, Karajan, Bernstein, De Sabata, Giulini, Gavazzeni and even Klemperer, (Solti didn't like her, but then I don't have much time for him), instrumentalists llike Victoria Mullova, who said Callas was a revelation when she came to the West, and Claudio Arrau, who would play his students records of Callas singing Bellini in an effort to make them understand how to phrase Chopin, not to mention other singers like Jon Vickers, Bjoerling, Schwarzkopf, Ricciarelli, Cotrubas, Corelli, Gobbi, Grace Bumbry, Gheroghiu and Fleming.


Such a penumbra of disinformation.

What'd _any _of these people know about music or performance anyway? _;D_


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## Levanda (Feb 3, 2014)

How I would put this polity I just watched Prokofiev's The Gambler as much I love Russian culture, music and no doubt operas but The Gambler, I would not call masterpiece at all, I did not get into the story and music, because I am not huge expert on operas and classical music, I dare to be so critical. Any thoughts many thanks.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

ribonucleic said:


> I will never understand "She may not have had a beautiful voice, but..." In opera, that's not optional! And whatever partial compensation she could achieve with her physical acting counts for nothing on the recordings.


but a lot of opera isn't _just_ about beauty - there is also betrayal, duplicity, anger, sadness, disappointment .... in short, high drama. A beautiful voice is not always enough for some of the greatest moments in opera - a voice that can convey the intentions of the composer across a very wide range of different emotions and different situations is also needed.

The 'beauty' of her performances often comes across in the unprecedented way in which Callas could (and can still) key in to our emotions in such appropriate and powerful ways


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by ribonucleic View Post
> 
> I will never understand "She may not have had a beautiful voice, but..." In opera, that's not optional! And whatever partial compensation she could achieve with her physical acting counts for nothing on the recordings.





Headphone Hermit said:


> but a lot of opera isn't _just_ about beauty - there is also betrayal, duplicity, anger, sadness, disappointment .... in short, high drama. A beautiful voice is not always enough for some of the greatest moments in opera - a voice that can convey the intentions of the composer across a very wide range of different emotions and different situations is also needed.
> 
> The 'beauty' of her performances often comes across in the unprecedented way in which Callas could (and can still) key in to our emotions in such appropriate and powerful ways


Beautifully-put.

That's what I wanted to express my-blonde-self; but didn't; or rather couldn't.


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## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

ribonucleic said:


> I don't doubt that great singers can achieve marvels of expression despite the shortcomings of their instrument.
> 
> *However, in the matter of Callas, I wonder if such claims have been exaggerated. Not speaking of you personally, of course, there seem those eager to romantically conflate her personal struggles with her vocal ones*.


For some, Callas is apparently a religion, only a lot more serious!

Thou shalt not enter into a discussion about Callas - there is a strong, if rather small Callas congregation on this forum, and if thou darest to question one of its High Priests, eternal Damnation shall rain upon thee! Hence, thou art definitely swimming in dangerous waters, my blasphemous ignoramus friend! (It's all quite amusing, actually. And a bit sad.)

By the way, you are absolutely right, of course. The whole Callas legend and everything surrounding it has long outgrown the actual artist and her performances. No artist could possibly live up to the hype surrounding Callas. I strongly doubt it, but it could be that the members of the Callas congregation actually recognize that this truth is breathing down their necks, and that the ensuing doubt is causing them to defend their religious conviction even more vigorously. Be that as it may - in any case, "the lady doth protest too much, methinks".

Callas left a number of very good recorded performances, to be sure - no argument there, but so did quite a few other sopranos.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Yikes- I'm glad I have no opinion about Ms Callas at all, apart from being desperately jealous of her stunningly dramatic Mediterranean good looks!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

OperaGeek said:


> For some, Callas is apparently a religion, only a lot more serious! maybe for some, but I don't worship her - I just recognise her as a fantastic singer
> 
> Thou shalt not enter into a discussion about Callas - there is a strong, if rather small Callas congregation on this forum, and if thou darest to question one of its High Priests, eternal Damnation shall rain upon thee! Hence, thou art definitely swimming in dangerous waters, my blasphemous ignoramus friend! (It's all quite amusing, actually. And a bit sad.)  Each to their own. If you don't like her singing - then fine. I lose nothing by it. Do what thou wilt!
> 
> ...


Oh well, I shan't fall out with anyone who doesn't like Callas - after all, Mrs Hermit cannot abide her voice :tiphat:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Oh well, I shan't fall out with anyone who doesn't like Callas - after all, Mrs Hermit cannot abide her voice :tiphat:


Thank you, HH.

I'm actually tired of the whole thing now. My belief in the Goddess is unshakable and no upstart, claiming we protest too much is going to change that.

I am reminded of a quote from E.M. Forster's _A Room With A View_

"She... joined the vast armies of the benighted, who follow neither the heart nor the brain, and march to their destiny by catch-words. The armies are full of pleasant and pious folk. But they have yielded to the only enemy that matters--the enemy within. They have sinned against passion and truth, and vain will be their strife after virtue. As the years pass, they are censured. Their pleasantry and their piety show cracks, _their wit becomes cynicism, their unselfishness hypocrisy_; they feel and produce discomfort wherever they go. They have sinned against Eros and against Pallas Athene, and not by any heavenly intervention, but by the ordinary course of nature, those allied deities will be avenged."

My Italics


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Just remember, Callas spelled backwards is Sallac.

Think about that for awhile.


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## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Just remember, Callas spelled backwards is Sallac.
> 
> Think about that for awhile.


Duuude - that's deep, man! :lol:


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## Marcel (Aug 14, 2014)

Glissando said:


> I'm not crazy about Maria Callas. I have seen live footage of her and will agree that she was a passionate actress. And her voice is always alive and interesting. At least she sang with conviction. But her voice is just not beautiful to me -- and a beautiful voice is one of my 'must-have's.' If it's not there, it's hard for me to get excited about a performance. I'm also not overly fond of Hildegaard Behrens. While I admire her acting and her sense of rhythm, her voice feels a bit thin to me. She doesn't feel like a full-fledged Wagnerian soprano in the way that Nilsson was.


In accordance with the opinion about Callas: Great singer, the dramatic voice of the century but his tone never liked. It has a very nasal voice that does not like me.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Yikes- I'm glad I have no opinion about Ms Callas at all, apart from being desperately jealous of her stunningly dramatic Mediterranean good looks!


Get in line!!


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## Marcel (Aug 14, 2014)

Couchie said:


> Sutherlands voice isn't naturally beautiful... what.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Idem your opinion. When Sutherland sings must to have a translator on hand because you do not understand anything ...


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Levanda said:


> How I would put this polity I just watched Prokofiev's The Gambler as much I love Russian culture, music and no doubt operas but The Gambler, I would not call masterpiece at all, I did not get into the story and music, because I am not huge expert on operas and classical music, I dare to be so critical. Any thoughts many thanks.


That's not so unusual. Sometimes we just don't resonate with a work, masterpiece or not.
I don't know if it's considered a masterpiece. I don't care for it either.
So you may be right.


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## Marcel (Aug 14, 2014)

Just been listening to Maria Callas, Renata Tebaldi and Georghiu singing "Casta diva" and the distance is huge in favor of the former. They are incomparable. Callas's voice was one of the voices of the twentieth century no doubt but I prefer the beauty of the voice of Tebaldi.


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> My belief in the Goddess is unshakable


This is the kind of talk that convinces me that Callas devotees are not responding chiefly to her singing.

It is the language of a personality cult, not of music appreciation.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

ribonucleic said:


> This is the kind of talk that convinces me that Callas devotees are not responding chiefly to her singing.
> 
> It is the language of a personality cult, not of music appreciation.


It's probably also the language of a lighthearted send up of the poster's own Callas fandom. We all have singers we obsess over to a crazy degree, but as long as we retain a sense of humour and a degree of self-awareness about it, it's not unhealthy, surely?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I don't obsess. Enjoy yes.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Marcel said:


> Just been listening to Maria Callas, Renata Tebaldi and Georghiu singing "Casta diva"


listen to Caballe's version as well. It's gorgeous.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Itullian said:


> I don't obsess. Enjoy yes.


hm, I don't know. 12 Ring Cycles on your shelf?  not that there's anything wrong with obsessing as long as it's _responsibly_ done.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Just a collection over many years.
I'm not obsessed with the Ring.
I have as many Beethoven and Mozart symphs as well as other works.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Callas was, no doubt, the greatest dramatic soprano of all time.

My soft spot is for Victoria de Los Angeles. There's a sweet subtle emotion there that touches me as deeply. I never tire of her. Very feminine.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

How about someone with a lot of free time goin through this list and seeing if there are any really good opera singers that are still not on this list?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Itullian said:


> Callas was, no doubt, the greatest dramatic soprano of all time.
> 
> My soft spot is for Victoria de Los Angeles. There's a sweet subtle emotion there that touches me as deeply. I never tire of her. Very feminine.


And I adore Victoria too. A little Callas/De Los Angeles story; after Callas had died a reporter rang her for her reaction. She hadn't heard the news and all he heard was uncontrollable sobs on the other end of the line.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Florestan said:


> How about someone with a lot of free time goin through this list and seeing if there are any really good opera singers that are still not on this list?


Plenty- but I'm not offering up any of my favourites for dissection on this thread!

I could mention Gigli but that's probably been done, and 'really good' depends on the number of intrusive aspirates and sobs he decides to throw in to any given performance. If he hadn't had a great voice I probably wouldn't dislike him so much, but there's something about the combination of a lovely voice and total lack of taste that is rather depressing.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

ribonucleic said:


> This is the kind of talk that convinces me that Callas devotees are not responding chiefly to her singing.
> 
> It is the language of a personality cult, not of music appreciation.


I can only reiterate what I posted earlier .... *maybe for some, but I don't worship her - I just recognise her as a fantastic singer*


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Callas was, no doubt, the greatest dramatic soprano of all time.
> 
> My soft spot is for Victoria de Los Angeles. There's a sweet subtle emotion there that touches me as deeply. I never tire of her. Very feminine.


VDLA is probably my favourite singer (and 'favourite' isn't necessarily synonymous with 'best' for me). Her versions of Canteloube's _Chants d'Auvergne_, Gounod's _Marguerite_, Puccini's _Butterfly_, Berlioz' _Nuits d'ete_ etc etc etc are wonderful. I also love her delicacy, her tenderness, her 'vulnerability' - a great singer, Yes!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> VDLA is probably my favourite singer (and 'favourite' isn't necessarily synonymous with 'best' for me). Her versions of Canteloube's _Chants d'Auvergne_, Gounod's _Marguerite_, Puccini's _Butterfly_, Berlioz' _Nuits d'ete_ etc etc etc are wonderful. I also love her delicacy, her tenderness, her 'vulnerability' - a great singer, Yes!


And oddly enough, I'm listening to her _Chants d'Auvergne_ right now.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by GregMitchell View Post
> 
> My belief in the Goddess is unshakable





ribonucleic said:


> _This is the kind of talk that convinces me that Callas devotees are not responding chiefly to her singing.
> 
> It is the language of a personality cult, not of music appreciation._


 

But the same language employed in the praising of Bach, Beethoven, or Mahler of course _wouldn't be_.

Like say, for instance, when the great American literary critic H.L. Mencken referred to Johann Sebastian Bach as "Genesis 1:1."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Having been otherwise occupied for several days, I see that I've been missing out on a discussion of that obscure and little-documented mid-twentieth-century soprano Maria Callas. Frankly I'm surprised anyone remembers her, or that anyone notices that she's no longer living! But I remember the night she died. It seems so long ago... 

Yes, I was in my twenties at the time, not long out of college, and I was about to head out to a rehearsal of a choral society with which I sang. I heard on the radio that Callas had died in Paris at the age of 53. I can't remember much else about that evening, except that I cried. Again and again, as the night passed, as I traveled to the rehearsal, as I sang, as I rode home and went to bed early... I cried. And to be honest, I have recalled that night many times since, and have occasionally cried at the memory. It's strange: I don't usually react emotionally to the passing of public figures, not even those I respect, or whose work I enjoy. I didn't follow the career of Maria Callas; I was too young and too busy then, and I wouldn't have cared, and never have cared much, about the private lives of celebrities. At the time of her death I knew very little about her. But I had heard, and owned, a few of her recordings - and I knew that what was on those recordings was important to me. Very important. 

Let me explain. I had been a lover of music from a very early age. I discovered classical music as a child, on my own, and knew instantly that it was my music. I drank it in hungrily, began to sing, started writing music, taught myself piano - I lived for music. At about age ten I discovered opera: I borrowed recordings from libraries, I sat at the piano and picked my way through vocal scores, I listened to singers, I read reviews of recordings and books about singing and the technique of singing. When I went to college I majored in music, and I studied singing and took soloist positions at local churches for pay. I did not have a voice of great compass or power, but I was considered an exceptionally intelligent and expressive musician, and people enjoyed hearing me sing. 

I relate this, not as proof of anything about myself, or as a demonstration of my qualifications for proffering musical judgments, but only as a context in which to say something personal about this artist, Callas, who seems even now to generate more heat than light among many who speak of her. What I want to say is this: that the musical artistry - not the voice as such, not the dramatic talent as such, not any of the singular and much-discussed attributes of this woman to which people respond, positively or negatively - none of these things taken in isolation, but rather the musical artistry as the integrated sum of all the attributes that go to make up what a musician understands musical artistry to be - the brilliant, subtle, all-encompassing feeling-intellect that enabled Maria Callas to turn a note, a phrase, an aria, an operatic role into a living thing of precise intention and fulfilled meaning, exerted a stronger influence on me as a musician, and taught me more about how to bring to life the inanimate symbols on a page of music and make them speak an articulate language of the human soul, than the work of any other musician in any field of music, without exception. And in the many years since then, with a lifetime of the experience of music as both listener and performer under my belt, I can still make that statement.

This is the reason I still cry when I remember the passing of Maria Callas. She was my teacher, the greatest I ever had. And I know that many others remember her, and honor her, precisely for this.

Whether anyone enjoys the voice, purely as a voice, of Maria Callas or any other singer is not a matter for debate or anything but the most superficial comment. The manner in which a singer's voice is employed in the creation of music, however, is a matter for endless inquiry and, in the case of some very few singers who were not merely great vocalists but great artists, enlightenment. In this respect no singer has more to teach us than Callas - even now, nearly half a century after her death.

Listen, and learn.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Just remember, Callas spelled backwards is Sallac.
> 
> Think about that for awhile.


Interesting _non-sequitur_.

-- But, as we're being clever with musical wordplay, how about anagrammatizing, 'The Jethro Tull lead singer and flautist Ian Scott Anderson'?

We get: "A tad arthritic, half-senile old nutter stands on just one leg."

See how fun that is?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Having been otherwise occupied for several days, I see that I've been missing out on a discussion of that obscure and little-documented mid-twentieth-century soprano Maria Callas. Frankly I'm surprised anyone remembers her, or that anyone notices that she's no longer living! But I remember the night she died. It seems so long ago...
> 
> Yes, I was in my twenties at the time, not long out of college, and I was about to head out to a rehearsal of a choral society with which I sang. I heard on the radio that Callas had died in Paris at the age of 53. I can't remember much else about that evening, except that I cried. Again and again, as the night passed, as I traveled to the rehearsal, as I sang, as I rode home and went to bed early... I cried. And to be honest, I have recalled that night many times since, and have occasionally cried at the memory. It's strange: I don't usually react emotionally to the passing of public figures, not even those I respect, or whose work I enjoy. I didn't follow the career of Maria Callas; I was too young and too busy then, and I wouldn't have cared, and never have cared much, about the private lives of celebrities. At the time of her death I knew very little about her. But I had heard, and owned, a few of her recordings - and I knew that what was on those recordings was important to me. Very important.
> 
> ...


Unbelievably beautiful post. Elegantly presented and eloquently expressed. Thanks for sharing that wonderful story.

I just kiss the screen with impetuosity. _;D_


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Interesting _non-sequitur_.
> 
> -- But, as we're being clever with musical wordplay, how about anagrammatizing, 'The Jethro Tull lead singer and flautist Ian Scott Anderson'?
> 
> ...


No, cause I don't even get it.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Itullian said:


> No, cause I don't even get it.


No. . . . . . . . probably not.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> No. . . . . . . . probably not.


Right-eee-ohh ! :tiphat:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Itullian said:


> Callas was, no doubt, the greatest dramatic soprano of all time.
> 
> My soft spot is for Victoria de Los Angeles. There's a sweet subtle emotion there that touches me as deeply. I never tire of her. Very feminine.


I don't think many sopranos conveyed pathos as beautifully as de los Angeles did. An example that comes immediately to mind is in Act III of the Beecham _La Boheme_ where her Mimi is pouring out her heart to Robert Merrill's Marcello. There's a lamenting quality that seems inherent to the voice itself.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Bellinilover said:


> I don't think many sopranos conveyed pathos as beautifully as de los Angeles did. An example that comes immediately to mind is in Act III of the Beecham _La Boheme_ where her Mimi is pouring out her heart to Robert Merrill's Marcello. There's a lamenting quality that seems inherent to the voice itself.


She had that quality about her. I love her Marguerite on the Cluytens Faust too. And Werther.
Such beauty and vulnerability there.
And I love how feminine she always sounds.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Right-eee-ohh ! :tiphat:


_Byyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee._

<Click. Dial tone.>


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Having been otherwise occupied for several days, I see that I've been missing out on a discussion of that obscure and little-documented mid-twentieth-century soprano Maria Callas. Frankly I'm surprised anyone remembers her, or that anyone notices that she's no longer living! But I remember the night she died. It seems so long ago...
> 
> Yes, I was in my twenties at the time, not long out of college, and I was about to head out to a rehearsal of a choral society with which I sang. I heard on the radio that Callas had died in Paris at the age of 53. I can't remember much else about that evening, except that I cried. Again and again, as the night passed, as I traveled to the rehearsal, as I sang, as I rode home and went to bed early... I cried. And to be honest, I have recalled that night many times since, and have occasionally cried at the memory. It's strange: I don't usually react emotionally to the passing of public figures, not even those I respect, or whose work I enjoy. I didn't follow the career of Maria Callas; I was too young and too busy then, and I wouldn't have cared, and never have cared much, about the private lives of celebrities. At the time of her death I knew very little about her. But I had heard, and owned, a few of her recordings - and I knew that what was on those recordings was important to me. Very important.
> 
> ...


Amazing the effect great artists can have on us.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Amazing the effect great artists can have on us.


It certainly makes _me_ retract my claws; if only for a moment.

_;D_


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

A truly great post from Woodduck.:tiphat:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

The late J.B. Steane's definition of a singer was "an _artist_ who makes beautiful sounds" (italics mine). I think we all want singers to make "beautiful" sounds; IMO, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, as Steane suggests, the beautiful sounds should not be devoid of artistry; there must be some musical-dramatic purpose behind them, so that they're directed toward a larger goal rather than just being beautiful noises in isolation. I bring this up not to contradict anyone or to imply anything bad about any particular singer, but just to add the quote to the discussion. It's probably my favorite quote by Steane.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> The late J.B. Steane's definition of a singer was "an _artist_ who makes beautiful sounds" (italics mine). I think we all want singers to make "beautiful" sounds; IMO, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, as Steane suggests, the beautiful sounds should not be devoid of artistry; there must be some musical-dramatic purpose behind them, so that they're directed toward a larger goal rather than just being beautiful noises in isolation. I bring this up not to contradict anyone or to imply anything bad about any particular singer, but just to add the quote to the discussion. It's probably my favorite quote by Steane.


As you know, I love John Steane's writings and have been an admirer since I first read _The Grand Tradition_ years ago, and, believe me, though it's a long book, I read it cover to cover more than once, and I'm not a fast reader. As you say, it's a wonderful way of putting things.

I would just add though for those who are nodding their head in agreement, thinking that he would therefore exclude Callas from that analaysis, that Steane really liked Callas, and often talked about the "beauty" of the voice. He clearly did not think she had an ugly voice, though he agreed she could make ugly sounds, which is not quite the same thing. He actually stated on more than one occasion that the basic timbre was quite beautiful. I remember in his review of her live *Anna Bolena*, for instance, he talks admiringly about the clearer focus of her voice than that of Simionato, and the beauty of the sound. He did so in many of his reviews. This is not incongruent with the quote above. There are all sorts of beauty, and beauty is not always perfection.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Bryn Terfel. His voice & appearance as Wotan in the Met's Lepage Ring ruined my opinion of him...also Dietrich Fischer Dieskau, Hildegard Behrens.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Dare I?
(apologies in advance to any I might insult)
Licia Albanese
Zinka Milanov
Franco Farina


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Dare I?
> (apologies in advance to any I might insult)
> Licia Albanese
> Zinka Milanov
> Franco Farina


I had to laugh on your comment.


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## Solitudine (Aug 6, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I have great respect for Ferrier for all the reasons you mention, but must admit to not being a fan. God knows we could use a few more real contraltos for those weird old crone roles - the witches and grandmothers and green-faced torsos that pop out of the ground saying "Weiche, Wotan, Weiche!" - but there's a sound in Ferrier's tone that just bothers me: a sort of constantly present "r" sound that's present in every vowel. Maybe that's what Figlaf means by "hootiness." Anyway, I blush in shame to admit having even a sliver of a scintilla of dislike for this great singer and lovely lady.
> 
> Clara Butt is a hoot in more ways than one. The name itself is so - so - anatomical.  I hope we can't judge her fairly by her recordings.


In fact, Ferrier raised her chest and middle voice too high... But her timbre is beautiful and she has great singing wisdom

I don't like Ernestine Schumann-Heink in the old generation of contraltos .Some of her recordings are amazing, but listening too much will make people doubt her fame. There are some problems in her chest and and about half of the middle register(the proportion of true voice in the chest register is too large, the trimble in the Passaggio is like Falsetto and often out of tune), and her treble often 'shout'. Her diction also sounds strange. It's almost difficult for me to find a mezzo/contralto singer similar to her vocal style.But her singing pays great attention to the grasp of emotion.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Licia Albanese never did it for me. Victoria de los Angeles is praised highly by many but I just don't connect. Renata Scotto for the most part is not someone I chose to listen to.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

For various and sundry reasons, there are three singers I place above all others: *Maria Callas*, *Franco Corelli*, *Fritz Wunderlich * in that order.

These are *my* preferences, and any objections are subject to that dictum.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Having been otherwise occupied for several days, I see that I've been missing out on a discussion of that obscure and little-documented mid-twentieth-century soprano Maria Callas. Frankly I'm surprised anyone remembers her, or that anyone notices that she's no longer living! But I remember the night she died. It seems so long ago...
> 
> Yes, I was in my twenties at the time, not long out of college, and I was about to head out to a rehearsal of a choral society with which I sang. I heard on the radio that Callas had died in Paris at the age of 53. I can't remember much else about that evening, except that I cried. Again and again, as the night passed, as I traveled to the rehearsal, as I sang, as I rode home and went to bed early... I cried. And to be honest, I have recalled that night many times since, and have occasionally cried at the memory. It's strange: I don't usually react emotionally to the passing of public figures, not even those I respect, or whose work I enjoy. I didn't follow the career of Maria Callas; I was too young and too busy then, and I wouldn't have cared, and never have cared much, about the private lives of celebrities. At the time of her death I knew very little about her. But I had heard, and owned, a few of her recordings - and I knew that what was on those recordings was important to me. Very important.
> 
> ...


Sometimes, reviving some thread is very rewarding, as was reading this post from Woodduck. Thank you, Woodduck, for your always interesting posts that always teach.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

not sure if you mean "skilled singers you just don't like" or "famous opera singers who actually have terrible technique"

from where I'm standing, these two questions have very different answers


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

I have quite a few although occasionally I enjoy them in certain roles but usually that’s down to a lack of other high quality recordings. Almost all singers from the 1970s onwards with a few exceptions. As above, Licia Albanese and VDLA as well as Leonie Rysanek (just can’t get past the slow vibrato), Lily Pons, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Joan Sutherland, Leontyne Price, Elena Souliotis, Christel Goltz, Nicolai Gedda, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Hilde Gueden, Jan Peerce, Renata Scotto, Antonietta Stella, Jussi Björling. It’s a shame because there a plenty of less recorded artists from the same time who I vastly prefer.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> I have quite a few although occasionally I enjoy them in certain roles but usually that's down to a lack of other high quality recordings. Almost all singers from the 1970s onwards with a few exceptions. As above, Licia Albanese and VDLA as well as Leonie Rysanek (just can't get past the slow vibrato), Lily Pons, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Joan Sutherland, Leontyne Price, Elena Souliotis, Christel Goltz, Nicolai Gedda, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Hilde Gueden, Jan Peerce, Renata Scotto, Antonietta Stella, Jussi Björling. It's a shame because there a plenty of less recorded artists from the same time who I vastly prefer.


Some of my favourites here, among them De Los Angeles, Fischer-Dieskau, Gedda, Schwarzkopf, Scotto and Björling, all of them great artists and great musicians.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

For most of them it’s not their artistry that I don’t respond to but just their general vocal means. I like De Los Angeles in certain things, her recording of Falla’s La Vida Breve is excellent but find her voice lacking in a certain fullness when it comes to Puccini, as attractive as the sound is. Fischer-Dieskau, Gedda and Schwarzkopf I can listen to with less problem in lieder but find them, especially Fischer-Dieskau, to be a little less suited to opera. Scotto is the only one you’ve mentioned that I actively dislike anywhere I hear her, some of her earlier recordings are listenable but I just find the voice acidic and her choice of repertoire was unwise to say the least. Björling I like in Faust and don’t find him a detriment to the Cellini Trovatore which has a cast which I otherwise am generally very fond of, I was debating whether to add him to the list or not but did so as I don’t see him as a great tenor in the way that many others do, I much prefer Corelli, Del Monaco, Di Stefano, Gigli, Tagliavini etc.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

If we're talking singers who are probably very good but whose sound or other qualities I just don't like, Birigt Nilsson is at the top of my list. I rarely like her recordings. I know that many on the web who heard her live insist that it was a very different experience, but not having had that luxury I just don't like the sounds she often makes. I think her Italian roles lack not just tonal warmth but a feel for the music. Her voice strikes me in much the same that way that Emmy Destinn's does: incredible at times, but often seeming slightly out of tune off the center of the pitch. I actually like the sound of Destinn's voice considerably more, however, especially in certain recordings and in soft singing.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> not sure if you mean "skilled singers you just don't like" or "famous opera singers who actually have terrible technique"
> 
> from where I'm standing, these two questions have very different answers


if the latter: Dietrich Fischer-Deskau, Marilyn Horne, Placido Domingo, Jessye Norman, Leo Nucci
if the former: Jusse Bjorling, Beverly Sills, Enrico Caruso, Kiri te Kanawa


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I have great respect for Ferrier for all the reasons you mention, but must admit to not being a fan. God knows we could use a few more real contraltos for those weird old crone roles - the witches and grandmothers and green-faced torsos that pop out of the ground saying "Weiche, Wotan, Weiche!" - but there's a sound in Ferrier's tone that just bothers me: a sort of constantly present "r" sound that's present in every vowel. Maybe that's what Figlaf means by "hootiness." Anyway, I blush in shame to admit having even a sliver of a scintilla of dislike for this great singer and lovely lady.
> 
> Clara Butt is a hoot in more ways than one. The name itself is so - so - anatomical.  I hope we can't judge her fairly by her recordings.


I think what you're basically trying to say is that her singing is too head voice dominant. it's not that she had bad technique or anything, but...what's the point of being a contralto if you don't flex those chest tones a bit? Imagine someone singing as a bass who never let-a-rip below the staff. That's like going to see an action movie only to end up like "bro! there was no finally fight scene. Are you serious?!" Her voice was beautiful, but this stylistic choice always left her sounding so "proper". No excitement, no intensity, more like someone you would listen to and think "you know honey, that woman at the church service really had a pretty voice".

Come to think of it, it might boil down to her personal life. She was considered to have been "frigid" with regards to her marriage, and could have easily been a lesbian, asexual or stuck in a loveless marriage (at least for a time, she eventually divorced). Regardless, her sound always came off sexually repressed to me, and I never could get as enthusiastic about it as I could voices with a bit more free spirited flair.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I think what you're basically trying to say is that her singing is too head voice dominant. it's not that she had bad technique or anything, but...what's the point of being a contralto if you don't flex those chest tones a bit? Imagine someone singing as a bass who never let-a-rip below the staff. That's like going to see an action movie only to end up like "bro! there was no finally fight scene. Are you serious?!" Her voice was beautiful, but this stylistic choice always left her sounding so "proper". No excitement, no intensity, more like someone you would listen to and think "you know honey, that woman at the church service really had a pretty voice".
> 
> Come to think of it, it might boil down to her personal life. She was considered to have been "frigid" with regards to her marriage, and could have easily been a lesbian, asexual or stuck in a loveless marriage (at least for a time, she eventually divorced). Regardless, her sound always came off sexually repressed to me, and I never could get as enthusiastic about it as I could voices with a bit more free spirited flair.


That's some heavy-duty diagnosing, I must say. I don't want to debate any of it, except to say that none of it is what I was driving at in saying that I heard an "R" sound in her vowels. I've just listened to her "Erbarme dich" - which has plenty of intensity, by the way - and when she sings "erbarme dich mein Gott" I distinctly hear "erbarmer dich marn gahrt." It isn't a question of head versus chest. It isn't even that her diction is poor. It just seems a property of her sinus cavities, or the size of her tongue, or something. I've grown used to it and I enjoy her singing more than I used to, but I did find it very annoying at first.

I agree that she gives the impression of carrying a full head voice all the way down. She and Schumann-Heink need to spawn a hybrid, and then maybe you and Solitudine would both be happy. Me, I'll take their idiosyncracies. No one today sounds as interesting and distinctive as either of them.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> *That's some heavy-duty diagnosing*, I must say. I don't want to debate any of it, except to say that none of it is what I was driving at in saying that I heard an "R" sound in her vowels. I've just listened to her "Erbarme dich" - which has plenty of intensity, by the way - and when she sings "erbarme dich mein Gott" I distinctly hear "erbarmer dich marn gahrt." It isn't a question of head versus chest. It isn't even that her diction is poor. It just seems a property of her sinus cavities, or the size of her tongue, or something. I've grown used to it and I enjoy her singing more than I used to, but I did find it very annoying at first.


I "heavy-duty diagnose" everything I'm interested in. surely you know that by now 



> I agree that she gives the impression of carrying a full head voice all the way down. *She and Schumann-Heink need to spawn a hybrid, and then maybe you and Solitudine would both be happy.* Me, I'll take their idiosyncracies. No one today sounds as interesting and distinctive as either of them.


yes. 100%

maybe I put some words in your mouth though. if that's the case, I apologize.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Albanese and Milanov top my no-no list.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

vivalagentenuova said:


> If we're talking singers who are probably very good but whose sound or other qualities I just don't like, Birigt Nilsson is at the top of my list. I rarely like her recordings. I know that many on the web who heard her live insist that it was a very different experience, but not having had that luxury I just don't like the sounds she often makes. I think her Italian roles lack not just tonal warmth but a feel for the music. Her voice strikes me in much the same that way that Emmy Destinn's does: incredible at times, but often seeming slightly out of tune off the center of the pitch. I actually like the sound of Destinn's voice considerably more, however, especially in certain recordings and in soft singing.


My favorite recorded Nilsson is her Scandinavian songs. I don't listen to a lot of her recordings other than those. I think she was heard much better in person. I am in love with her personality and like her much better when I can watch her. She is one of my favorite opera personalities. She exudes character and strength. No one could upstage her onstage. She is not my first choice for Wagner, but would have killed to have heard her live.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

vivalagentenuova said:


> If we're talking singers who are probably very good but whose sound or other qualities I just don't like, Birigt Nilsson is at the top of my list. I rarely like her recordings. I know that many on the web who heard her live insist that it was a very different experience, but not having had that luxury I just don't like the sounds she often makes. I think her Italian roles lack not just tonal warmth but a feel for the music. Her voice strikes me in much the same that way that Emmy Destinn's does: incredible at times, but often seeming slightly out of tune off the center of the pitch. I actually like the sound of Destinn's voice considerably more, however, especially in certain recordings and in soft singing.


I was a huge Nilsson fan early in my opera-loving life. That was in the late 1960s, when she was the world's first choice for the big Wagner parts. She certainly had a unique and stunning instrument, with effortless power and a gleaming brilliance that somehow refused to turn harsh or shrill, and she was a conscientious artist who grew through the years and deserved her fame in the limited repertoire in which she specialized. I was aware even then that those limitations were considerable, and I would now characterize her as the important soprano with possibly the smallest repertoire in which she truly excelled. I wouldn't want to be without her Brunnhilde, Isolde, Elektra or Turandot, I like her Salome, and I'm rather fond of her Minnie, who with her bright, cool timbre could very well be an American girl of Swedish descent, unlike more Italianate-sounding divas (a notion which might not displease Puccini); I imagine Destinn might have projected a similar quality. Otherwise I share your lack of enthusiasm for Nilsson's work in Italian opera. I do remember fondly hearing her in a Met broadcast of Tosca in 1968, but mainly because her Cavaradossi was the young Placido Domingo making his splendid broadcast debut.

Speaking of intonation, Nilsson herself acknowledged a tendency to go sharp, unlike most singers who err in the other direction. Maybe the voice just wanted naturally to move to the placement that generated those incredible high notes; the higher she went, the happier she was. Note the way she takes the high notes directly, coming down on top of them rather than pushing up to them from below. This may have been some sort of necessary technical accommodation to her rather inflexible instrument, but it makes for some stunning effects, as if Zeus has nailed you with bolts of lightning from out of the sky. When Nilsson's Isolde delivers her curse, you'd better have your affairs in order; her furious and terrified outbursts as the captive Brunnhilde in _Gotterdammerung_ are stupendous; and when she and Corelli go at it in the final scene of Turandot you keep your eye on the chandeliers and plot your exit route. We've not heard the like of it since.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Speaking of Birgit Nilsson, while I like the effect of the lightning bolt high notes, as Woodduck describes it above, I dislike the way she separates them from the rest of the phrase. For instance, in *Turandot*, one of the high Cs in _In questa reggia_ - the note falls on the first syllable of "sono" in the phrase "_gli enigmi SOno tre_." Nilsson sings "_gli enigmi - aah oh tre_." That bothers me. She does this with all high notes, spoiling the legato and breaking up the words. I'd prefer a _portamento_ to the high note!

This is done, of course, for vocal comfort and, possibly, preservation. But it's a disturbing effect to my ears.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

MAS said:


> *Speaking of Birgit Nilsson, while I like the effect of the lightning bolt high notes, as Woodduck describes it above, I dislike the way she separates them from the rest of the phrase*. For instance, in *Turandot*, one of the high Cs in _In questa reggia_, the note falls on the first syllable of "sono" in the phrase "_gli enigmi SOno tre_." Nilsson sings "_gli enigmi - aah oh tre_." That bothers me. She does this will all high notes, spoiling the legato and breaking up the words. I'd prefer a _portamento_ to the high note!
> 
> This is done, of course, for vocal comfort and, possibly, preservation. But it's a disturbing effect to my ears.


this! 
Nilsson excelled at dramatic, declamatory bursts, but like many dramatic soprani, her phrasing was disconnected, no sense of lilt or fluidity (though she was far from the worst offender).

Kirsten Flagstad was the polar opposite, always maintaining a core of lyrical, melodious singing which was well developed by the time she ever attempted Wagner.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Nilsson excelled at dramatic, declamatory bursts, but like many dramatic soprani, her phrasing was disconnected, no sense of lilt or fluidity (though she was far from the worst offender).
> 
> Kirsten Flagstad was the polar opposite, always maintaining a core of lyrical, melodious singing which was well developed by the time she ever attempted Wagner.


My exaggeration meter is going off again. I find your description of Nilsson's singing quite unfair. Disconnected, no sense of lilt or fluidity?

Salome: 




I submit that precisely as an illustration of Nilsson's ability and inclination to sustain a line and spin a legato phrase even in the most dramatic music where one might get away without it. Her Wagner performances demonstrate this just as well.

Flagstad of course had exemplary legato, and employed frequent portamenti, which singers unfortunately no longer did by Nilsson's time.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> My exaggeration meter is going off again. I find your description of Nilsson's singing quite unfair.


It probably was a little bit unfair



> Disconnected, no sense of lilt or fluidity?
> 
> Salome:
> 
> ...


In retrospect, "disconnected" was off the mark. It's not that she's doing anything technically wrong, but that she always sounded so "stately". This clip displays a bit more intimacy and grace, but by and large, you could say I have a preference for "flowy" voices regardless of voice type or rep.



> Flagstad of course had exemplary legato, and employed frequent portamenti, which singers unfortunately no longer did by Nilsson's time.


Agreed (It's only gotten worse. I have talked to professional singers who have an incorrect definition of what legato is, and even one or two who had no idea what it was in the first place). Flagstad wasn't really a fair comparison either. Brunhilde-sized voices are not supposed to be able to move with the florid grace of Eleanor Steber or Mary Costa. Expecting that would be like expecting "oh, your voice is about as big as Joan Sutherland, surely you can squeeze out some E6s"


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