# Mathematics & Music



## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Your thoughts please, whether in music there is math & in math there is music....., or on the contrary that they are so far apart as the right part of the brain can get astray from the left part. In Asia there are a lot of 'Tiger Mums' who urge their children towards violin playing or piano playing, because they believe it might help them to think more orderly. Does music (classical music) help one to think more in a structured manner?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

As a composer I must admit I've encountered (while dealing with more intellectual aspects of composing) feelings of annoyance similiar to those that I had when I was forced to learn math during my school days. I would say that if you're composing or for some other reason deal with music theory on serious level you will find some similiarities with mathematics. But for listeners it's irrelevant.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

+1 to Aramis's comment, and I believe that learning to play a musical instrument at a young age (and still at an older age, but to a lesser extent) can do all sorts of wonders with a child's brain 'plasticity' in order to help them develop across a wide range of music and non-music related cognitive tasks.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

There are similarities between music theory and math in the logical, puzzle-like qualities of both. But I am fairly good at music theory and at analyzing music by ear and have no talent at all for math. Music theory I find enjoyable; math I find frustrating. I think people often overestimate how much math is in music. At my college, we have "distribution requirements," meaning that you have to take classes in a variety of disciplines in order to graduate. There is a "quantitative analysis" requirement, but I didn't have to take a math class because the 20th century harmony class I took last year fulfilled that requirement. It was _definitely_ not a real math class, and was rather light on numbers. The most mathematical it got was when we had to create twelve-tone matrices and compose music with them. But I'm not complaining--it was much easier for me than a math class would have been.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

In the college I'm about to attend, there's this class (I think built specifically for musicians) to fulfill the science credit called the Physics of Music. There's a lot of math in Physics, so apparently there is a way to analyze music the same way you'd analyze math. I'm definitely taking it for my science credit when I have to.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> In the college I'm about to attend, there's this class (I think built specifically for musicians) to fulfill the science credit called the Physics of Music. There's a lot of math in Physics, so apparently there is a way to analyze music the same way you'd analyze math. I'm definitely taking it for my science credit when I have to.


We've got one of those too; it's mostly about sound waves and acoustics and stuff and it sounds interesting. Unfortunately, I can't take just that for my science requirement because we have to do something with a lab and it doesn't have one.  Physics of Sound and Music and Chemistry of Art are the classes everybody calls "baby science" and all the non-science majors try to get into them.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Yeah, the physics of sound can explain why some intervals are more dissonant than others in the 12 tone scale, and how the root of a triad is physically reinforced by combination tones.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

pjang23 said:


> Yeah, the physics of sound can explain why some intervals are more dissonant than others in the 12 tone scale, and how the root of a triad is physically reinforced by combination tones.


The overtone series is fascinating. the conductor of my youth orchestra used to give a lecture on it every year because he thought it was fascinating and wanted us to think so to, but a lot of people didn't get what he was talking about (some were very young). Physics of sounds does get pretty mathematical, and my knowledge of it is limited. I think lot of people who get musical training never learn much about it--it is not a requirement for music majors at my school.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Meaghan said:


> There are similarities between music theory and math in the logical, puzzle-like qualities of both. But I am fairly good at music theory and at analyzing music by ear and have no talent at all for math. Music theory I find enjoyable; math I find frustrating. I think people often overestimate how much math is in music. At my college, we have "distribution requirements," meaning that you have to take classes in a variety of disciplines in order to graduate. There is a "quantitative analysis" requirement, but I didn't have to take a math class because the 20th century harmony class I took last year fulfilled that requirement. It was _definitely_ not a real math class, and was rather light on numbers. The most mathematical it got was when we had to create twelve-tone matrices and compose music with them. But I'm not complaining--it was much easier for me than a math class would have been.


I find music theory a pleasure and advanced maths a pain. For me music theory is more akin to grammar in language, another system I enjoy analysing.


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

There are people who excel in both math/physics and music. Albert Einstein, for example.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

A lay opinion here (I'm not a musician, just a fan): while harmonies come from mathematical proportions / ratios, and while music can be analyzed in mathematical terms, I'd say that this theoretical aspect is not necessarily compatible or concomitant with artistic sense. I see music as more intuitive and emotional than the hard science that math is. Some people may be facile in both aspects (e.g. Schoenberg), but I'd think that one can be a gifted composer or a goodtener without paying attention to the mathematical aspects, and a good mathematician won't necessarily be a gifted composer or have an accurate musical sense. Again, it's a lay opinion, so, correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

Fourier analysis is music to my ears.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> For me music theory is more akin to grammar in language, another system I enjoy analysing.


Yes! I hadn't thought of that, but I believe it is for me as well.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Much of music can be described mathematically. Exactly how much can be explained mathematically is still uncertain. I have known several musicians well, and none of them have good maths skills. I have taken several graduate math courses, but I clearly have less musical ability than those musicians I know.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I don't think there is strong correlation between musical skills and mathematical ones in people. To be good at one, you don't even have to be good at the other. That's not to say there is no relationship between the two, as many membes have pointed out. It was said that Beethoven couldn't add up total costs for his grocery shopping, though Handel could at least do that (as evident in one of Handel's scores where he actually wrote down the total cost for wine shopping at the side of the sheet).


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I don't think there is strong correlation between musical skills and mathematical ones in people. To be good at one, you don't even have to be good at the other.


What about Asians?


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Couchie said:


> What about Asians?


I have friends from South East Asia who are good at maths and played musical instruments, nurtured by their parents. This is probably no different to other people from other parts of the world.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I can do all kinds of complex mathematics (it comes with doing a Medieval English degree) that would literally blow your mind, but I can never work out how many beats there are in a bar of a piece in 4/4.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Perhaps I should have stressed the personal side to the question: Do you like math, because math is like music to you or do you hate math, because you don't perceive music in it? With on the flipside: Do you like music, because music is like math to you etc.?


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## haydnfan (Apr 13, 2011)

I like math and I like music, but they are to me not the same thing. And I think that people greatly exaggerate the use of math in music, especially for formal works.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

TxllxT said:


> Perhaps I should have stressed the personal side to the question: Do you like math, because math is like music to you or do you hate math, because you don't perceive music in it? With on the flipside: Do you like music, because music is like math to you etc.?


I've always been good at maths (did advanced maths for A-level; nearly did astrophysics at university), and I've always been good at music (pursue composition now), but I see neither one in the other. I just enjoy both as completely separate entities.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Maths and music are definitely related, but at a deeper and more scientific level than is relevant to an average listener like me, and even to most composers. I can't imagine Mozart knew very much about wavelengths etc.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Meaghan said:


> We've got one of those too; it's mostly about sound waves and acoustics and stuff and it sounds interesting. Unfortunately, I can't take just that for my science requirement because we have to do something with a lab and it doesn't have one.  Physics of Sound and Music and Chemistry of Art are the classes everybody calls "baby science" and all the non-science majors try to get into them.


My college does have Physics of Music with a lab!


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I love both math and music, but I feel no relationship between the two when enjoying either. 

I know an extensive amount of math but very little music theory. I suspect that if I were to study music theory, my mathematical training might help me. Certainly I would find connections that would be interesting. 

If math appreciation and ability did correlate directly with music appreciation, I think modern music would appeal to me as much or more than earlier music. For me, however, much modern music (and especially more "difficult" modern music) appeals much less to me.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Polednice said:


> but I can never work out how many beats there are in a bar of a piece in 4/4.


Thats easy - 4. The top number always tells you how many beats per measure.

In case you can't already tell I am a mathematical genius.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

tdc said:


> Thats easy - 4. The top number always tells you how many beats per measure.
> 
> In case you can't already tell I am a mathematical genius.


I still just don't get it... My mind is far too creative to understand these dull analytical things.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

tdc, your post would have been even funnier if you had just written "Thats easy - 4" and left it at that.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Webernite said:


> tdc, your post would have been even funnier if you had just written "Thats easy - 4" and left it at that.


Darn it. I'll have to work on my comic relief. The rest of my day will be spent just wallowing in my own mind...tortured by the question of how many likes that post could've received had I just made it funnier.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Music is maths.

Sound is maths.

Everything is maths.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Argus said:


> Music is maths.
> 
> Sound is maths.
> 
> Everything is maths.


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

I'm impressed at the number of mathematical TCers :tiphat:

Pass me my log tables and I can calculate a square root. As long as you don't bowl a googly by giving me a negative number


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## jamallax89 (May 20, 2013)

Mathematics & Music two are very difficult. if any one want to know mathematics he will try hard and soul as a same any one want to know music he also will try hard and soul.


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