# Least favorite works of your favorite composers



## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

We all know that even the greatest and most self-critical composers had some occasional lapses in judgement, off-days, commissioned works that didn't fit their fancy, stuff written for the quick buck, etc.

Those pieces mostly end up in the embarrassment section of the composer's oeuvre, not to be heard ever again, or just when they're dug out by a completist performer. But there are many examples of mediocre or bad works by the best composers that end up undeservedly popular, often to the annoyance of the author himself.

So, what are the ugly ducklings among your favorite composers' works? It doesn't have to be objectively bad works, it can be just a part of the oeuvre that just doesn't click with you.

My choices for *Beethoven*:

- Triple Concerto. Everything questionable about his middle period style balled up into 36 minutes of C major blandness. 
- Choral Fantasy. Hastily cobbled together hybrid concerto/cantata thing that plainly doesn't work, not as a cantata, not as a concerto.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I find Bach's Flute Sonatas on the dour side.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

*Bach*, my favourite composer, and he has held that spot for decades already. I have heard most of his works (including all cantatas and all organ works), and there is just one where I think he goes below the minimum standard for me to at least enjoy it: the Coffee Cantata.

*Mahler*, my runner up. A few years ago I would have said the 8th, but I'm finally warming up to that work (although it is still my least favourite Mahler work - so I guess it qualifies for the thread).

*Brahms*, third place in my composers list. A tie between his piano sonatas and his string quartets. Given that I'm in general somewhat indifferent to piano sonatas, and love string quartets, I'd say his string quartets are for me the most disappointing (even more since I love most of his chamber music).


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

I`ve never cared much for Brahms` Serenades. They are more than fine amongst their kind, but they are just so _un-Brahmsian_ that it irritates me a little. I`d have probably liked them much more if they were composed by a composer like Dvořák.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

J.S. Bach - BwV 565
Ravel - Bolero
Prokofiev - Symphony No. 1


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Handel: Harp concerto. Granted this has for Handel an uncommonly special sound with muted? strings and recorders + harp but I find it just too precious, the composer is much better with bold and robust music.

Bach: I finally "got" the orchestral suites last year with extensive listening to all of them (the can still get boring in some interpretations). Don't much care for the 3-4 harpsichord concerti nor the first Brandenburg. I was very surprised that some people seem to like the last of the harpsichord/violin sonatas G major (with several alternative versions) best, I think it is the odd one out and the weakest of the 6, but that's relative ranking only. 

Haydn: almost all concerti, Military symphony

Mozart: piano concerto #26 K 537, flute/harp concerti and quartets. I also find the Requiem uneven after the first two pieces and overrated but it's certainly not a piece I actively dislike. It's just that it's like the most legendary piece ever and a lot of this fame is literally based on legends 

Beethoven (this is very "relative", they are all still major works and it is more that I don't share the often extraordinary reputation they have): String quartets 18/4 and 59/3, violin concerto (I heretically find the triple concerto underrated compared to the violin concerto), Pastoral symphony, piano sonatas opp. 22, 31/1, 54; I am not considering obviously "minor" works here like op.49 or the rondos op.51 or stuff for wind band, marches etc.)

Schumann: cello concerto, violin concerto, and I find the 2nd symphony frustratingly uneven. The slow movement is one of the greatest but the finale is horrible.

Brahms: Triumphlied is an obvious candidate although I have it on disc I heard it maybe twice in 30 years, so I cannot claim to know it well. 
I quite like the serenades although they are uneven, especially the first with "pseudoclassical" mvmts 1,4,5 but great and "Brahmsian" mvmts 2+3. And I don't like the maybe most famous orchestral Brahms movement, the 3rd from the 3rd symphony of dubious Aimez-vous Brahms? fame

Mahler: I don't know the 8th well enough, so I cannot really rate it either way. I think the 3rd is too long but nevertheless quite impressive. The stuff in the finale of the 2nd before the choir enters should have been cut by half. The finale of the 1st could have needed some tightening up as well. 
I don't much care for the Rückert settings except for "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" which is my favorite of all his songs. I actively dislike "Verlorne Müh" from the Wunderhorn settings with its horrible pseudo dialect (that is just ridiculous from trained singers but it is probably impossible to do with without me cringing).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Favorite pieces by least favorite composers and vice versa


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Beethoven: Triple Concerto
Brahms: German Requiem
Dvorak: Noonday Witch
Elgar: The Apostles
Mahler: Symphony 8
Prokofieff: Piano concerto 2
Schmidt: Chaconne for orchestra
Sibelius: Rakastava
Tchaikovsky: Romeo and Juliet


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Bach - Most secular cantatas
Brahms - String quartets, serenades
Schubert - Unfinished symphony (I just don't get it...)
Mahler - 8th symphony
Sibelius - Kullervo
Beethoven - 7th symphony, Missa Solemnis
Dvorak - "American" quartet
Ravel - Tzigane
Shostakovich - Anything that's clearly Soviet propaganda
Bruckner - No. 3


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Bach - Most secular cantatas
> Brahms - String quartets, serenades
> Schubert - Unfinished symphony (I just don't get it...)
> Mahler - 8th symphony
> ...


An interesting choice ACB - one I suspect many will disagree with! 
Personally I don't rate it as highly as many but I'd struggle to place it in my least favourite category.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Mahler - Das Klagende Lieder.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

I've never been nuts about Brahms' first two string quartets; however, I'm especially put off by most his Piano Quintet. It sounds like someone who's beating his head against a wall because he's having trouble dealing with a mountain of anxiety.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Brahmsian Colors said:


> I've never been nuts about Brahms' first two string quartets; however, I'm especially put off by most his Piano Quintet. It sounds like someone who's beating his head against a wall because he's having trouble dealing with a mountain of anxiety.


I hereby request that you change your screenname to Gernsheimian or Deliusian colors or something like that  To underappreciate op.51 (I personally am rather underappreciating op. 67) I can tolerate (barely) but someone who does not love the piano quintet should not have Brahmsian in his screen name. :devil: The 2nd movement is not the strongest (I think this is in the tradition of having comparably light slow movements after very dense and intense minor mode first movements, like Beethoven's 5th symphony and Haydn's "Fifth" quartet, or Mozart's c minor piano concerto) but the 3rd movement is probably among my favorite scherzi ever and the outer movements are also passionate and gripping.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

1. Beethoven: March in B-flat, WoO 29
2. Wagner: Polka, WWV 84
3. Bach: Chorale Setting "Vom Himmel hoch da komm ich her", BWV 700
4. Mozart: 2 Minuets for Orchestra, KV 61g
5. Brahms: Mondnacht, WoO 21
6. Schubert: Aria "Pensa, questo istante", D 76
7. Bruckner: Aequale no. 1, WAB 114
8. Tchaikovsky: Adagio molto in E-flat for String Quartet and Harp
9. Berlioz: Adieu Bessy, H. 46B
10. Mendelssohn: Scherzo in B minor, WoO 2

I don't dislike masterpieces (and this includes the Triple Concerto and the Choral Fantasia).


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

There are many works I don't know, and a lot of works I heard and disliked but didn't tried again in further attempts. I exclude these because it doesn't make sense to talk about these. Here are works I dislike of composers I like after various attempts:

Bruckner - Trio of Scherzo of Symphony No. 9 
Mahler - Symphonies No. 1 and 7 
Shostakovich - Symphonies No. 1 and 9 
Schubert - 4 Impromptus Opus 90, especially No. 2 
Beethoven - Yorkscher March 

Not works but general types of music I have some problems with:

Wagner - endless recitative passages without good lyrics (too long and slow, I guess he had too much text to work off)
Bach - dragging vocal music (I prefer instrumental or lively, more emotional choral music)


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Brahmsian Colors said:


> I've never been nuts about Brahms' first two string quartets; however, I'm especially put off by most his Piano Quintet. It sounds like someone who's beating his head against a wall because he's having trouble dealing with a mountain of anxiety.


Totally agree about the piano quintet. There are times when the music of Brahm is too heavy for me, and the quintet is a perfect example.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I once heard the Franck quintet in concert and the musicians played the andante from the Brahms quintet as encore. After the Franck this sounded like Haydn, lean and slight!


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

tdc said:


> J.S. Bach - BwV 565
> Ravel - Bolero
> Prokofiev - Symphony No. 1


Familiarity breeds contempt?


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Kreisler jr said:


> I hereby request that you change your screenname to Gernsheimian or Deliusian colors or something like that  To underappreciate op.51 (I personally am rather underappreciating op. 67) I can tolerate (barely) but someone who does not love the piano quintet should not have Brahmsian in his screen name. :devil: The 2nd movement is not the strongest (I think this is in the tradition of having comparably light slow movements after very dense and intense minor mode first movements, like Beethoven's 5th symphony and Haydn's "Fifth" quartet, or Mozart's c minor piano concerto) but the 3rd movement is probably among my favorite scherzi ever and the outer movements are also passionate and gripping.


Well, I _did_ mention I was not entirely disapproving of the Quintet. Though I don't elevate it to the same level as you do, the third movement is actually fine with me. The first movement constitutes my nadir insofar as pleasurable appeal, and I receive little satisfaction from the second and fourth movements. Otherwise, there are many other works of Brahms I greatly enjoy. So there's really no good reason for me to abandon my Brahmsian label.  He's been my favorite for over 60 years. It's hard for me to imagine that would change. :tiphat: :cheers:


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

OK - I will go for 1 piece per each of my favourite composers as many have done.

Bach JS - Virtually all of the cantatas
Beethoven - The Quartets - I just dont connect with any of them.
Brahms - Entire solo piano - just dont get it.
Mozart - Organ works
Schubert - all the lieder (love Schubert but not bothered about any lieder)
Mendelssohn - The piano concertos - so ordinary when you consider how great the VC is.
Schumann - All the solo piano
Mahler - Sy no 8
Britten - Peter Grimes
Haydn - any of the great masses
CPE - Anything Ive ever heard. A composer at the cutting edge who influenced many but just could not compose a memorable melody.
Tchaik - March Slave - one of the silliest pieces I have ever heard.
RVW - The Lark Ascending - it goes on and on


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## Superflumina (Jun 19, 2020)

Aries said:


> Mahler - Symphonies No. 1 (boring) and 7 (uninspired filler mostly)


Aww this breaks my heart! Especially that about the 7th, probably my favorite Mahler. Try Michael Gielen's recording if you haven't head it, for my money by far the best recording of the 7th.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

PlaySalieri said:


> Schumann - All the solo piano


This. I try and I try. Maybe it's the pianists. But I swear it's never long before Schumann is banging away.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Bach ~ His organ chorales. I try. Interestingly, when I hear the same chorales arranged for woodwinds, they're stunningly beautiful. I think it's the organ.
Haydn ~ Baryton Trios. Jesus Christ but they're boring.
Mozart ~ His masses and liturgical works. Up until the Great Mass, all his works are as close as he comes to mediocrity in my blasphemous opinion.
Telemann ~ His Don Quixote overture. I only need to hear that once.
Händel ~ His organ concerti. He's just dialing them in. 
Mendelssohn ~ Many of his solo piano works and his piano concerti . His sister was a better composer of songs.
Schubert ~ His early symphonies and his rondo for violin and orchestra.
Schumann ~ His solo piano works.
Chopin ~ I like everything except his compositions for piano.
Brahms ~ Academic Festival Overture. As if Brahms were capable of having a sense of humor... as if...


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Never been fond of Dvorak's late tone poems (Noon Witch, Golden Spinning Wheel, etc) The stories behind them are too gruesome for me. Bleech.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

*Brahms*: I can't say I dislike anything, he was an self-critical composer with extremely high standards. If anything, I don't care much for his folksy or gypsy escapades, whether it be Hungarian dances, waltzes, or anything else in the "light" genre.

*Bruckner*: I just can't accept or even believe that symphony no. 0 was composed AFTER the first. The first is a masterpiece (never mind the weak finale, that's a Bruckner problem that he only solved in the 4th and even then after several versions), the 0th is just... I don't know, it sounds like half the notes are missing from the score.

*Wagner*: Anything before Rheingold, basically. If iyou know it's Wagner but you keep hearing Meyerbeer and Weber and Lortzing in it... ugh. Never been a huge Meistersinger fan either.

*Schubert*: Whenever he deliberately becomes "folksy", be it in his songs or elsewhere, I mentally disconnect.

*Mahler*: The 8th has been mentioned here a couple of times. Perfect example why you never should trust a composer's verdict about his own work. Mahler considered it his masterpiece, and yes, I think what he did in the first movement is close to his best efforts elsewhere. And the 2nd movement is still fine till after the 2 "arias" by baritone and bass. After that, Mahler's holiday was running out, he had to hurry to get the symphony ready, he starts rehashing his already overused and not terribly interesting melodic material - and the whole thing deflates like a badly baked souffle.

*Strauss*: Alpine Symphony. Cheap thrills and bad melodies.

*Bach*: Not Bach's fault (or maybe partially), but the garbage "poetry" he used for his cantatas makes that part of his oeuvre hard to digest for me.



vtpoet said:


> Chopin ~ I like everything except his compositions for piano.


I see what you did there


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Bach: Toccata and Fugue in D minor
Mozart: Leck mich im Arsch
Beethoven: Für Elise
Handel: Chaconne with 62 Variations
Brahms: Hungarian Dances
Mahler: Symphony No. 4
Wagner: Rienzi overture


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

PlaySalieri said:


> OK - I will go for 1 piece per each of my favourite composers as many have done.
> 
> *Bach JS - Virtually all of the cantatas
> Beethoven - The Quartets - I just dont connect with any of them.
> ...


 All the works in bold I consider to be among the greatest treasures of classical music. Time and again I marvel at how different tastes can be.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> All the works in bold I consider to be among the greatest treasures of classical music. Time and again I marvel at how different tastes can be.


"All! All!!!! I hate it *ALLLLL!!!!!!!*" :lol:


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

Ravel - Rapsodie espagnole


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

dissident said:


> Mozart: Leck mich im Arsch


You're mad. It's a canonic masterpiece that anticipates the Requiem.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

vtpoet said:


> You're mad. It's a canonic masterpiece that anticipates the Requiem.


Actually musically it's pretty good...but....(no pun intended)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

vtpoet said:


> Mozart ~ His masses and liturgical works. Up until the Great Mass, all his works are as close as he comes to mediocrity in my blasphemous opinion.





vtpoet said:


> You're mad. It's a canonic masterpiece that anticipates the Requiem.


I'm sorry to say it, but I find comments like these a bit disappointing (and not even funny). Can't you see, for example, that the benedictus from K.257 (along with those from the Salzburg Haydn's Missae in C, st. Ruperti, Joannis Nepomuceni) is a real masterpiece that anticipates that of K.427?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Regarding 2 works that have been mentioned: There is no accounting for taste. This is what was rejected:
Beethoven Triple Concerto:


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

DaveM said:


> Regarding 2 works that have been mentioned: There is no accounting for taste. This is what was rejected:
> Beethoven Triple Concerto:


It's similar to the issue of those polls, you know, the ones in which we must never ever question the integrity, "good faith", judgement and sincerity of respondents. If someone answers "I despise all of Bach except for the Anna Magdalena Notebook", well...


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Yep.....The Beethoven Triple (and the Brahms Double): In some respects like the "unwanted stepchildren". Though I would imagine there are a decent number, possibly including the two or three of us, who find them feel good pieces when we listen to them. :cheers:


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

^ Incidentally the Double Concerto is one of my favorite Brahms works.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

And that Mozart from K 299---what a BEAUTIFUL piece.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> I'm sorry to say it, but I find comments like these a bit disappointing (and not even funny). Can't you see, for example, that the benedictus from K.257 (along with those from the Salzburg Haydn's Missae in C, st. Ruperti, Joannis Nepomuceni) is a real masterpiece that anticipates that of K.427?


I will in no way defend my opinion and concede the argument entirely to you. My perspective has probably been poisoned by my near-absolutist and cult-like love of Bach.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Brahmsian Colors said:


> And that Mozart from K 299---what a BEAUTIFUL piece.


I was not familiar with it until I watched Amadeus in the mid 80s. There is a point where Salieri is reading the scores of many works Constanze handed him. A segment of each work is played as he looks at each. At the point where the opening of the K299 Adagio is played I internally gasped, OMG!


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> I'm sorry to say it, but I find comments like these a bit disappointing (and not even funny). Can't you see, for example, that the benedictus from K.257 (along with those from the Salzburg Haydn's Missae in C, st. Ruperti, Joannis Nepomuceni) is a real masterpiece that anticipates that of K.427?


I don't usually agree with you, but I sure do this time. The K. 257 Benedictus is wonderful music, and it clearly anticipates K. 427.

You know your Mozart.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Bach: I love all of them with possible exception of some apocryphal works.
Mozart: some early works. I would not say I totally dislike them, but I find them plain comparing with contemporary works.
Beethoven: Welllington's victory. As boring as Tchaikovsky's 1812.
Brahms: exercises WoO.6. Naxos should have never recorded it.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Brahms: string quartets (don't engage me), Tragic Overture (never understood it)
Beethoven: "Moonlight" Sonata, Fur Elise (overplayed to little effect)
Mahler: Symphony no.7 (sours my stomach)
Mozart: Horn Concerti (all the same), Symphony N.40 (whiney), Eine Kleine Nachtmusick (overplayed)
Wagner: Brunhilde's aria (bores me)


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

Many of Handel's operas strike me as tossed off fairly quickly with little effort because he could get away with it. In fact outside of Cesare, Rodelinda, and maybe one or two others, there aren't any I don't prefer as a small playlist of excerpts. I hear a much more inspired Handel in the oratorios.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Bulldog said:


> Totally agree about the piano quintet. There are times when the music of Brahm is too heavy for me, and the quintet is a perfect example.


I understand where you come from, because most Brahms is too heavy for me. While I reckognize his greatness, I'm very seldom in the mood to listen to some of his music.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

premont said:


> I understand where you come from, because most Brahms is too heavy for me. While I reckognize his greatness, I'm very seldom in the mood to listen to some of his misic.


I've been listening to the Piano Quintet performed by Isabella Faust and Tetzlaff, among others, and it's a very different performance than the usual-much lighter and more luminous in my opinion.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I understand finding Brahms (too) heavy but not quite singling out the piano quintet. The missing violin does not really make the 1st piano quartet considerably "lighter", or even the 1st cello sonata is rather "heavy". The "classic" Fleisher/Juilliard of the quintet is rather lean in my ears and the odd recording with Gould (Canadian radio but on disc in Sony's edition with the white covers) is almost anemic (I don't recommend it).


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

Olias said:


> Never been fond of Dvorak's late tone poems (Noon Witch, Golden Spinning Wheel, etc) The stories behind them are too gruesome for me. Bleech.


I absolutely agree. It's a great pity Dvorak packed up writing his excellent cycle of symphonies for these melodramatic and not very interesting tone poems.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I love Dvorak but he can be hit or miss for me sometimes. I'm not a big fan of the highly regarded Dumky Trio, for instance. It feels so purely melodically driven, which isn't inherently a bad thing, but I sense a lack of variation and just straight reiteration of the melody and starts sounding stale and loses its appeal to me. I feel similar about other Dvorak.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Beethoven - Wellington's Victory
Tchaikovsky - 1812 Overture


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Brahms - the three piano sonatas
Mahler - 8th symphony
Shostakovich - _The Limpid Stream_ (ballet), although there are numerous contenders from the Socialist Realism years but that was hardly his fault
Handel - chamber works
Hindemith - _Mathis der Maler_ (opera). OK, I 've only heard highlights but that was enough to convince me that the whole thing would be too stodgy and inert. The later opera _Die Harmonie der Welt_ seems cut from even thicker cloth.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

David Phillips said:


> I absolutely agree. It's a great pity Dvorak packed up writing his excellent cycle of symphonies for these melodramatic and not very interesting tone poems.


Might it not be argued that Dvořák could have found even more time for another symphony or two had he not spent the last four years of his life concentrating on opera with decidedly mixed results? Collectively the five later tone poems took up just over 12 months.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

> My choices for Beethoven:
> 
> - Triple Concerto. Everything questionable about his middle period style balled up into 36 minutes of C major blandness.
> - Choral Fantasy. Hastily cobbled together hybrid concerto/cantata thing that plainly doesn't work, not as a cantata, not as a concerto.


For and towards OP and some others, your missing out big time. Just my two cents


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Rogerx said:


> For and towards OP and some others, your missing out big time. Just my two cents


My point was that if you have a favorite composer, it doesn't mean that you must feel obliged to love all of his works. And that one shouldn't feel forced to white-knight every last shred of his oeuvre. I mean, take someone like Mozart, there probably isn't another composer of his standing who wrote so much garbage. Half of his 600+ works are never performed because they're completely insignificant. Does that make him a bad composer? No, there are enough masterpieces left that ensure his top 3 position. But does that mean there will be people who will defend even the slightest, emptiest, dullest piece he ever wrote and claim you can't criticize it because it's by Mozart? Sadly, yes.

There's a reasonable consensus among Beethoven scholars that the two works I quoted are among his weaker efforts, so there's a certain amount of objectivity about it. What worsens the case for me is that I've got a certain allergy to Beethoven in middle period C major mode. The 5th is my least favorite symphony, due to the cringe fest that the finale presents to me.
But I can see why people adore it, and why people even think the Triple Concerto is a really good piece. After all, if it was composed by Ries or Hummel or Spohr, it would be regarded as a masterpiece. It just isn't (at least in my opinion) when you take into account Beethoven's higher standards in other works.


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