# Round One: O Isis und Osiris. Pinza, List



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Ezio Pinza (Recorded 1923 - 1930) ℗ 1995 Nimbus Records Limited




Emmanuel List. all I have. Photo is of another opera


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

I like Pinza and List both, but will go with Pinza here. Hadn't heard of Rebroff before but he doesn't belong in such company.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> I like Pinza and List both, but will go with Pinza here. Hadn't heard of Rebroff before but he doesn't belong in such company.


I had an album of Rebroff's 40 years ago. Gay German of Russian ancestry with a 4.5 octave range. Trip down memory lane for me. Sorry.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I had an album of Rebroff's 40 years ago. Gay German of Russian ancestry with a 4.5 octave range. Trip down memory lane for me. Sorry.


Is it the same Ivan Rebroff who does that awful falsetto Orlovsky on the Carlos Kleiber *Die Fledermaus*?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Is it the same Ivan Rebroff who does that awful falsetto Orlovsky on the Carlos Kleiber *Die Fledermaus*?


Rebroff is taken out but is still in the poll.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> I like Pinza and List both, but will go with Pinza here. Hadn't heard of Rebroff before but he doesn't belong in such company.


Rebroff is gone.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Rebroff sounds sleepy and unconcerned though the voice is deep. I like Pinza and List both and choose the former for his slightly more bright singing. It’s difficult not to sound lugubrious in this music, and the slow _tempo _encourages that impression.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Rebroff sounds sleepy and unconcerned though the voice is deep. I like Pinza and List both and choose the former for his slightly brighter singing. It’s difficult not to sound lugubrious in this music, and the slow _tempo _encourages that impression. Why was Rebroff deleted?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Rebroff sounds sleepy and unconcerned though the voice is deep. I like Pinza and List both and choose the former for his slightly brighter singing. It’s difficult not to sound lugubrious in this music, and the slow _tempo _encourages that impression. Why was Rebroff deleted?


People grumbled and I regretting including him. I just took him out to save the grief. He was a nostalgic connection for me. He would have apparently gotten zero votes so no loss. The other two are solid competitors. It is a bit boring but if you like low it gives you low. VERY LOW.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I would love to consider List a contender because he has so much....the warmth, beauty, and awesome low notes. It feels like it could be top of the heap for this music But the line, like everything else about his performance needs so much more definition. It feels cow-y in production and way too undefined with the line and text.

Pinza sounds magnificent...simple, warm, dignified and virtually the antithesis of List for those qualities of definition I mentioned.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Gosh...Couldn't Pinza sing this any slower? God may have all the time in the world, but Zauberflote is a comic Singspiel, after all. Here, we're treated to an old-fashioned idea of solemnity or "sacrednss," now best deposited, like faded posies, on the graves of church ladies. 

In any case Pinza is fabulous. List is very solid vocally, but even at a faster tempo he sounds sleepy. If I were Pamina I'd go home to Mother.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I would love to consider List a contender because he has so much....the warmth, beauty, and awesome low notes. It feels like it could be top of the heap for this music But the line, like everything else about his performance needs so much more definition. It feels cow-y in production and way too undefined with the line and text.
> 
> Pinza sounds magnificent...simple, warm, dignified and virtually the antithesis of List for those qualities of definition I mentioned.


Missed you.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Is it the same Ivan Rebroff who does that awful falsetto Orlovsky on the Carlos Kleiber *Die Fledermaus*?


I believe so (there's also a baritone Rebroff who sang with Callas in her Mexico days (Trovatore?)

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Whenever I listen to Pinza I'm reminded of Ponselle's description of his voice. 'He sounded as if he had a microphone in his chest.' (Or words to that effect.) This is magnificient.

List is very good too. I find it fascinating that the language doesn't have more impact (Pinza's version is in Italian, whilst List sings in the original German). 

I have a slight preference for List (possibly because I recognise the original language text more), but I prefer Pinza's voice. One thing I don't like about List is some of his sliding in the place of true legato. Pinza wins.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I believe so (there's also a baritone Rebroff who sang with Callas in her Mexico days (Trovatore?)
> 
> N.


Ivan _Petroff _who sang Di Luna at one of the performance of *Il Trovatore *in Mexico. The others were with Leonard Warren. I have a disc, which includes bits of the Petroff performance.










Sorry, this has nothing to do with the thread. Just responding to The Conte above.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

So after all that business about Rebroff and Petroff I finally got round to listening to these two renditions. Manificent voices both, but List had a bit too much sliding around for my taste. I preferred Pinza for all that he is singing the aria in Italian translation. He sings with grave beauty, but still manages to inject some life into a very slow tempo.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Is it the same Ivan Rebroff who does that awful falsetto Orlovsky on the Carlos Kleiber *Die Fledermaus*?



Yes he sang on that Fledermaus according to Wiki.... . He recorded over 40 recordings, sang at Carnegie Hall and sang both opera and Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof. I remember him singing VERY low Russian arias on the album I had so I thought he would be a candidate for this contest and hadn't seen his name since I was a teen. 50 year old memories. He was listed as having a 4.5 octave range in the Guinness Book of World Records for many years but Dimash has certainly surpassed him with over 6 today and has a full lyric soprano voice up high with big full E6s.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

The Conte said:


> I believe so (there's also a baritone Rebroff who sang with Callas in her Mexico days (Trovatore?)
> 
> N.


Rebroff was a mostly "crossover" artist who had lots of bestseller middle- to lowbrow LPs in 1970's Germany, largely variations on the "Volga Boatman" theme. His "Russian" bona fides were questioned; he was kinda the Yma Sumac of German-speaking lands, though far more popular comparatively. His presence in a _Fledermaus_ with C Kleiber, no less, has to be traceable to The Boys in Marketing, and maybe to an unsuspected mischievous streak on Kleiber's part.

His Wikipedia entry is not to be missed: 



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Rebroff


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I really had a hard time deciding whom I like better. For a few seconds I was sure about one, then I switched and back again.

Pinza was a more stern Sarastro and List more fatherly.

I had an impression, that the aria is easier for List, so I guess he is "officially" better. (If this is a complete nonsense, I will find out soon ofter I read your commentts, LOL !) However, I love the effects which are produced when the bass is reaching his limits. I choose Pinza ;-)


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> It is a bit boring but if you like low it gives you low. VERY LOW.


That sounds interesting. Would you send me the link ;-) ?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> That sounds interesting. Would you send me the link ;-) ?






The consensus is he is outclassed here but he had an enormous range.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> I had an impression, that the aria is easier for List, so I guess he is "officially" better. (If this is a complete nonsense, I will find out soon ofter I read your commentts, LOL !) However, I love the effects which are produced when the bass is reaching his limits. I choose Pinza ;-)


Haha, my attempt at rational analysis of technical aspects went very bad indeed ! 
Anyway, I reached the public consensus, LOL !


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The consensus is he is outclassed here but he had an enormous range.


To me he sounds as if he should play a younger man.
What are young bass characters in opera ? 
An interesting voice, though.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Yes he sang on that Fledermaus according to Wiki.... . He recorded over 40 recordings, sang at Carnegie Hall and sang both opera and Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof. I remember him singing VERY low Russian arias on the album I had so I thought he would be a candidate for this contest and hadn't seen his name since I was a teen. 50 year old memories. He was listed as having a 4.5 octave range in the Guinness Book of World Records for many years but Dimash has certainly surpassed him with over 6 today and has a full lyric soprano voice up high with big full E6s.


Oh SFO!!!... they do get you with those ranges don't they!!!!!!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BBSVK said:


> Haha, my attempt at rational analysis of technical aspects went very bad indeed !
> Anyway, I reached the public consensus, LOL !


Don't you pay attention to any of us.... You just do your thing!!! I like reading it!!!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Oh SFO!!!... they do get you with those ranges don't they!!!!!!


At 15 I had 4 + octaves and with both baritone to G6 with a really big high C in the soprano register. I wished I could have kept that ability but was glad for the added manliness in my dating life LOL. My skin also got much better LOL. I envy people who have big ranges. Yma Sumac sends me into orbit
Here I am at 15 in Germany visiting my sister. I got to see her sing two operas. This little girl is the daughter of an Australian lady who knew Sutherland. It was by FAR the brightest part of my youth.


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