# Beethoven Quartet 15 2nd movement compare Ivan Sokolnikov with the Budapest Quartet.



## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

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https://soundcloud.com/ivan-sokolnikov%2Flvbqt15b-8-render
 This link is a clip of the 2:35 minute middle section. The entire 12 minute 2nd movement is also posted above this clip by Ivan Sokolnikov with many details of the project included there (click "home").


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

The first thing to notice is the difference between Ivan Sokolnikov and Budapest is the tempos. The difference is great. Which tempos fit The phrases most naturally? Do the more relaxed tempos of Ivan Sokolnikov enhance the revelation of Beethoven's craftsmanship? The phrases are ethereal and delicate which is to say they do not respond to a heavy hand performance which often is heard with Beethoven.
Tempo is paramount. Toscanini said it. A phrase has its natural tempo and it is the conductor's job to find it.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

The second thing is the sounds of the instruments. Again there is a big difference. The Budapest sounds like four men playing four instruments often at odds with one another. There is no steady leadership, no conductor. But the Budapest was praised in their day for playing uncommonly well together which they did when compared to others. Today the Ivan Sokolnikov rendering is greatly different because of the help of computer technology. It sounds like one man playing one instrument. That is to say that here is a unity of mind of the four quartet voices rare in the quartet literature. There is a conductor enthroned to rule like a king and he is Ivan Sokolnikov. And in this project he has attained a unity of purpose that usually eludes quartet players.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, that's your opinion, which is fine -- but I don't really have any desire to hear it again. Way too mechanical and the timbre of the "instrument" is way too weird. Also, I've heard real quartets play that passage in that tempo, so to condemn the Budapest as typical of some "accepted" tempo is too much of a generalization. I happen to like individual voices in quartets. Otherwise they sound too much like HAL.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

Thank you for listening to the clip. My point about the tempo is not about majority rule. The music suggests a tempo for itself. On your weird sound comment. The HAL was picked because of the clarity of the ensemble sound. Other samples with more string sound were not used because of lack of clarity. Some of the others tried include Session Strings Pro and the Vienna Symphony samples that come with the Kontakt 5 sampler and Garritan and Halion Symphonic Orchestra solo strings. I like individual voices in quartets too but with Cyberchambermusic clarity rules.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

Thank you for your response. In order to face Beethoven we must go through a middle man. Like the Budapest quartet. We marvel at their skill and contribution. But it pales beside the craftsmanship of Beethoven. The focus of Ivan Sokolnikov is the craftsmanship of the composer. Hence the need for clarity.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

Do artists ever come out with revisions of previous performances?

We assume that in a studio recording there are many "takes" produced and the issued version is assembled from these items. The studio session might therefore last several hours to redo sections which have some real or imagined flaws.

There is a story about Toscanini. He was unhappy with a recorded performance. The problem was solved when engineers spliced in (the tape recording) a section from the tape of a previous rehearsal.

In an extreme case a symphony might make clips of sections over an extended time of many days when there might actually be substitutions of players. The goal is to produce a better performance.

Questions to be asked are would the listeners tolerate this? Would the listeners be able to distinguish the result from a recorded concert hall version?

The fans already tolerate this in the concert hall where a performer may repeat a work but is unable to duplicate exactly the previous performance.

Has an artist ever produced two different versions of the same work and invited his fans to chose their favourite?

In the modern computer era the possibilities for revisions are endless due to digital signal processing of audio files.

I have just uploaded to soundcloud a new version of the Beethoven quartet 15 (The file is labeled "Lbvqt15b 13"). The form is ABA. The change is this. Ivan Sokolnikov did not take the two repeats in the second occurrence of the A section. This shortens the time of the track by about two minutes. There are numerous other changes. The retard at the end is actually a clip of the retard from its first occurrence in the audio file.

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https://soundcloud.com/ivan-sokolnikov%2Flvbqt15b-13

The goal is to produce an improved performance. With the computer the possibilities are endless because the files reside permanently in the computer. Ivan Sokolnikov can still present this version in the future exactly but with one change: new samples can replace the old.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

MarkW said:


> Way too mechanical .


If you mean mechanical metronomic rhythms with inadequate rubato, I agree, I thought it was very poor for that reason. The second upload is no better, in some respects worse. Unlistenable.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

Thank you for listening.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

Music brings us together. Not physically. Spiritually.
Here is an example sparked by Rodrigo's Guitar Concerto de Aranjuez recorded in March 2013: 




Here are some simple observations.

The soloist follows the conductor's cues with care. But he seems connected with the conductor in a way that is stronger than that common bond. The connection seems spiritual. An unusually strong spiritual connection that is a joy to see. Where does this strength come from?

This uncommonly strong spiritual bond has spread to the orchestral players, every one. You see that in their faces which we often observe due to the camera angles. The viewer sees it but not the audience which is too far away. But the connection has spread throughout the (large) audience. Indeed this spiritual union exists throughout all the environs to all those present. It is universal. It is common to all. It is a joy to see because it is unity rarely seen. What has brought these people so close together?

But it has spread even farther beyond them. To the solitary youtube viewer. It has jumped in space and time and over video and audio technology to me. And to you.

And for us it is not the visual images. We would catch the spirit with our eyes closed. It comes into us through the ear, hearing. It is not the skill of the players. They can be replaced. Others have done it. It comes from the composer. His skill as a craftsman.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

In Beethoven's quartet 14 the solo 1st violin begins the piece with an expressive 4 note phrase (g# c c# a). This phrase and other versions of it occur throughout the movement in all four parts. It is the centrepiece of the movement. The viola will repeat this exact phrase when it enters 8 measures later (an octave lower). But the violist does not give the same exact rendering of the phrase. Why? The printed score calls for an exact copy but, try as he might, the violist, being a different person of course, can ultimately only give his version. I want to ask a question. Would an exact copy mean a better crafted whole?

I have a suggested way to advance the issue. Some violinists can play the viola too. Let us have the 1st violinist also play the viola part (at the same time?) for comparison. Impossible you say. Yes, in the old days. But this is a new day and it can be done. In fact, the same man (woman) can now play all four parts.

(There is a way to do it with the old recording studio technology. A person who can play 3 instruments like the violin and the viola and the cello could separately record all four quartet parts and then play them back together.)

But this is a new day. Ivan Sokolnikov can play all four instruments simultaneously. Indeed his plan is to make nearly exact copies of the phrase in its various versions and in all parts throughout. So now you can compare his new day version with any other old day version you chose and decide for yourself if this idea of wholeness better suits master-craftsman Beethoven's great quartet work of art.


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https://soundcloud.com/ivan-sokolnikov%2Flvbqt14-2018-6


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