# Live from the Met: Turandot with Christine Goerke, Yusif Eyvazov, Eleonora Buratto



## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

So, this is coming up this Saturday at our local cinemas. It looks like the same Zeffirelli staging as a 1989 performance I have with Eva Marton and Domingo (a shriek-fest). But the staging is beautiful. I have never heard Goerke sing anything from _Turandot,_ although I was meh  about her _Walküre_ last season.

It worries me that I have never even heard of either the tenor singing Calàf or the soprano singing Liù. What say ye? What should I expect? YNS, maligned here rather much of late for his vocal "coaching," is conducting. Are you going to go?

https://www.metopera.org/season/in-cinemas/2019-20-season/turandot-live-in-hd/

Kind regards,

George


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Although a devoted fan of Puccini, I will not go to see it. The singers are completely unequipped for these parts, and the exceprts the met has posted (to entice us or drive us away?) are quite bad. Goerke is flat, coreless, and basically shrieking the top notes. Eyvazov has a white and colorless voice, totally underwhelming as Calaf.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

This review seems to like it:

https://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwop...w-TURANDOT-At-The-Metropolitan-Opera-20191007


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Goerke is better in Wagner where the top notes are not so important. She often goes flat in the stratosphere. It is interesting that in the clip of her on Youtube in In Questa Regia, it cuts out before the high notes. Maybe for good reason. She was often flat 15 years ago in Norma in Seattle before the voice got so gargantuan.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I paid my 20€ at the theatre to book the ticket. I intended to do a Turandot challenge and listen to every recording and choose my favourite, so prior to that I wanted to watch a good production and nothing better than the Zefirelli one. I do have hopes for YNS, but I didn't know you considered the cast so poorly.

What do you mean by "YNS, maligned here rather much of late for his vocal "coaching" do you mean this loose video essay?






Was this video discussed in another thread? Because I'd love to bash the hell out of it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Granate said:


> I paid my 20€ at the theatre to book the ticket. I intended to do a Turandot challenge and listen to every recording and choose my favourite, so prior to that I wanted to watch a good production and nothing better than the Zefirelli one. I do have hopes for YNS, but I didn't know you considered the cast so poorly.
> 
> What do you mean by "YNS, maligned here rather much of late for his vocal "coaching" do you mean this loose video essay?
> 
> ...


Posted on YouTube by a bunch of self-appointed 'experts' I believe! 'nuff said!


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Posted on YouTube by a bunch of self-appointed 'experts' I believe! 'nuff said!


I've been scrolling through the channel. Only interested in chest singing over everything, comparing modern singers in a live production with old singers in their prime in their best night and conditions. (you won't hear there a post 59s Callas suffering the Lucia tessitura after a long period without singing). Since it got to put Bad singing vs good singing the views rocketed and they don't talk about anything else since.

Edit: I found the thread! Diving into it!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Posted on YouTube by a bunch of self-appointed 'experts' I believe! 'nuff said!


Name-calling proves nothing. When you know nothing about a subject, it's best to keep quiet about those who know something.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

By all means Go! It will be a fun day.
Yusif Ayvazov(sp?) is the husband of Anna Netrebko and has a fine tenor voice. Maybe not in your top ten but decent enough to pull off Calaf.
The genius of the piece however is Puccini. 
Enjoy!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Name-calling proves nothing. When you know nothing about a subject, it's best to keep quiet about those who know something.


What was incorrect about my statement?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> What was incorrect about my statement?


That's the wrong question. Calling people "self-appointed experts" is insulting, particularly when your own knowledge of the subject of singing is clearly less than theirs. "Nuff said" only makes you look like a self-appointed something-or-other, since it isn't up to you to decide when enough has been said.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> That's the wrong question. Calling people "self-appointed experts" is insulting, particularly when your own knowledge of the subject of singing is clearly less than theirs. "Nuff said" only makes you look like a self-appointed something-or-other, since it isn't up to you to decide when enough has been said.


So you have experience as an opera singer then so you can make a judgment?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> So you have experience as an opera singer then so you can make a judgment?


Again, wrong question. Whether or not I'm a singer or a serious student of singing (I've been both, and you've been neither), I know stubborn ignorance and aggressive presumptuousness when I see them. My point is: you need to stop trolling us with ignorant criticisms and pointless provocations. It's sickening, and it poisons the atmosphere here for people who actually care about what's being discussed.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Barelytenor said:


> So, this is coming up this Saturday at our local cinemas. It looks like the same Zeffirelli staging as a 1989 performance I have with Eva Marton and Domingo (a shriek-fest). But the staging is beautiful. I have never heard Goerke sing anything from _Turandot,_ although I was meh  about her _Walküre_ last season.
> 
> It worries me that I have never even heard of either the tenor singing Calàf or the soprano singing Liù. What say ye? What should I expect? YNS, maligned here rather much of late for his vocal "coaching," is conducting. Are you going to go?
> 
> ...


I just heard it tonight and plan to see the HD production. Goerke was "on" tonight even though she managed an off-key moment (so who cares?) and I credit her for doing a fine job with an extremely difficult part.
Eyvazov was very able for Calaf and he has a much finer voice than is credited to him.
The new Liu was a delight and was given a solo bow at curtain calls.
YNS is a superb conductor so please don't go by one thing that you read. The Met is lucky to have him.
Go and enjoy it. You won't be disappointed. With Puccini leading the parade, how can you miss?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Again, wrong question. Whether or not I'm a singer or a serious student of singing (I've been both, and you've been neither), I know stubborn ignorance and aggressive presumptuousness when I see them. My point is: you need to stop trolling us with ignorant criticisms and pointless provocations. It's sickening, and it poisons the atmosphere here for people who actually care about what's being discussed.


 I do actually know a lot more about singing that you give me credit (being married to a former professional musician who is also a singer and having other professional musicians in my family) which is why your posts make me raise certain questions. But it's just that some of us are a little more self-deprecating about our knowledge. But as you can't seem to answer a question without going in for your usual kind of character assassination just leave it at that. Please just read what you yourself put (is it not 'aggressive'?) before you accuse others of 'poisoning the atmosphere'! I believe music lovers ought to be able to disagree in a spirit of mutual respect and friendship.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I do actually know a lot more about singing that you give me credit (being married to a former professional musician who is also a singer and having other professional musicians in my family) which is why your posts make me raise certain questions. But it's just that some of us are a little more self-deprecating about our knowledge. But as you can't seem to answer a question without going in for your usual kind of character assassination just leave it at that. Please just read what you yourself put (is it not 'aggressive'?) before you accuse others of 'poisoning the atmosphere'! I believe music lovers ought to be able to disagree in a spirit of mutual respect and friendship.


If you know anything about vocal technique you have yet to demonstrate it. Glib broadsides against This Is Opera don't show any knowledge of anything. They show only a desire to be disagreeable, at which you are an expert.

I can and will answer any question that's honorably asked. Your persistent demand for people's "qualifications" - asking me how much time I spend in opera houses, as if that were any proof of anything - is not honorable. It's game-playing, it's one-upmanship, and it's presumptuous. Ask a real question about something and you'll get an answer.

As for who is "poisoning the atmosphere," if you want a clue as to who is regarded as a useful contributor here, note the number of "likes" we each get from other forum participants. A person who actually had a sincere desire for "mutual respect and friendship" just might wonder about that, take a hint, and reexamine his attitude and approach. But I have never seen you reexamine anything on any subject. You have only dug in more stubbornly whenever opposed, no matter how pointless or insubstantial your position and no matter what information is presented to you. On the subject of vocal technique, your position is not even insubstantial. It's nonexistent. All you have done, on this thread and on the one you've imported your attitude from - The Met's Music Director, Vocal "Expert" - is carp and criticize.

Here is your very first post on that thread:

_*"Load of rubbish if you ask me. *Of course, if you take excerpts like this out of context you can prove anything you like. Then when they play the real 'oldies' who are supposed to have such marvellous voices they always sound really thin to me but whether that is due to the ancient recording or the voice I don't know. But we are supposed to say they are marvellous. The guy obviously has an axe to grind and has chosen his out-of-context excerpts to try and illustrate his own prejudices. No doubt we could prove the same points if we listened in to suitably doctored excerpts from Tebaldi's or Callas' rehearsals. I can remember critics going on about them when they were alive. Of course, now they are dead, they are like the angels! I was talking to a voice coach the other week and am sure he would take an exception to this sort of thing. *Bit of an insult on the intelligence I call it."*_

Nice, thoughtful, mature approach to the subject, isn't it? You then go on to spend most of your time on the thread complaining that This Is Opera haven't provided you with enough "credentials" to satisfy you that their views are worth considering. If you were really interested in the thread, you would try to address the specific points it raises, offering ideas of your own that might support or question those points, or eliciting the ideas of others here. But it isn't your goal either to offer knowledge or obtain it.

The only "load of rubbish" around here, the only "insult on the intelligence," is your entire approach to an interesting subject which I offered for the consideration of people who know something about singing, or wish to think and learn about it. That discussion could have proceeded much more profitably and pleasantly without your determined effort to undermine it, find someone to disparage, and demonstrate what you think is your superior wisdom and good sense. The same could be said of a lot of discussions around here.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

As to the point the OP raised, yes I will be going to the broadcast, circumstances permitting. Seems too good an opportunity to miss for a few quid at the local cinema.If the singing is not up to much not too much lost and the production looks sumptuous. Can't think how much the expense of going to the Met would be! I know nothing beats actually being there 'live' but this is the next best thing.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

You're in for a treat. And the new Liu, Eleanora Buratto is a real find.
Enjoy.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

@nina foresti You're right, I've decided to go and to eat popcorn! After all, I dearly love the tunes, and especially Ping, Pang, and Pong singing "Ho una casa nell' Honan" which is a little island of serenity amidst all the yelling and violence. I have never liked Turandot, the character, and don't think any soprano could make me do that. But I do love the busy Zeffirelli staging as well.

Thanks for the gentle push, Nina. 

PS Being the (current) husband of Her Nebs is NOT a recommendation to me.

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barelytenor said:


> @nina foresti You're right,* I've decided to go and to eat popcorn!* After all, I dearly love the tunes, and especially Ping, Pang, and Pong singing "Ho una casa nell' Honan" which is a little island of serenity amidst all the yelling and violence. I have never liked Turandot, the character, and don't think any soprano could make me do that. But I do love the busy Zeffirelli staging as well.
> 
> Thanks for the gentle push, Nina.
> 
> ...


I do hope you're not sitting near me! I believe the fate of all those who eat popcorn in the cinema (especially during opera) should be the same as Turandot's princes, Calaf excluded! :tiphat:


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I'll be bringing candy gum. Perfect for audiences who want silence.

But how much is a few quid? I had been considering the 20€ price of the screening and thought the reposition of Madama Butterfly next month wasn't worth the money (not even the singing that I heard in the trailers). I'll be watching MB and FROSCH by other means.

And by the way. Anyone curious for Girard's Holländer?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Barelytenor said:


> @nina foresti You're right, I've decided to go and to eat popcorn! After all, I dearly love the tunes, and especially Ping, Pang, and Pong singing "Ho una casa nell' Honan" which is a little island of serenity amidst all the yelling and violence. I have never liked Turandot, the character, and don't think any soprano could make me do that. But I do love the busy Zeffirelli staging as well.
> 
> Thanks for the gentle push, Nina.
> 
> ...


I will disregard your negative statement about her Nebs -- she of one fabulous voice and staying power.
Enjoy your popcorn and please save some for me. How else is an HD experience complete without it?


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Barelytenor said:


> @nina foresti You're right, I've decided to go and to eat popcorn! After all, I dearly love the tunes, and especially Ping, Pang, and Pong singing "Ho una casa nell' Honan" which is a little island of serenity amidst all the yelling and violence. I have never liked Turandot, the character, and don't think any soprano could make me do that. But I do love the busy Zeffirelli staging as well.
> 
> Thanks for the gentle push, Nina.
> 
> ...


Popcorn is noisy for the people sitting close to you. Don't eat popcorn.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Untwist your knickers, all. There will be plenty of empty seats here in Virginia, I'm sad to say. And I'll probably just drink some water ... Since I am down 30 pounds and counting. 

Sorry Nina, but I used to like Anna a lot better before she starting doing too many roles too heavy for her voice. I hope you all enjoy it and I especially hope that Goerke is in splendid voice!

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Well I thoroughly enjoyed that! While Eyvazov does not have the sheer beautiful vocal colors of say Pavarotti (to whom he paid tribute during his interview, saying it was Luciano's birthday today—I dunno), he was a sexy and appealing character to charm the Ice Princess. And he sang with excellent musicianship and decent Italian. And I thought Christine Goerke did an excellent job of trying to show Turandot torn between fear and love. But the chorus and Eleanora Buratto stole the show; I have never heard the Met chorus sound better, and YNS did exactly what he said he wanted to do, bring out the contrast between the Big Sections and the Quiet Pieces. Even PP&P were excellent. A bang-up day! 

I ate grapes. Quietly.

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just to report I really enjoyed the Met Turandot too. So did everyone sitting around me including one guy who was a professional singer sitting next to me. So I think the negative scorn and that has been placed on modern singing and conducting and the reasons ‘we’ don’t like opera was shown up for what it was. Even though Eyvazov Was no Corelli Or Pavarotti he did a pretty decent job and sang well and what’s more looked the part in HD. Goerke sang well in the impossible part and I agree she presented a princess torn by love and fear. The three clowns did well But it was Buratto who stole the show and I don’t know why the prince didn’t fall for her in the first place! She was absolutely fantastic . I don’t understand the carping that has gone on about YNS. I thought the conducting was incredibly dramatic and brought out the contrast in the scores. The production was absolutely overwhelming even in HD Making one wish one had seen it live but then a trip to New York would’ve been overly more expensive than down to the local flicks. Thank goodness for modern technology by which we can get these treats without having to travel the world or even the country. I don’t know about your picture house but mine was quite full
I didn’t know there is a butterfly coming up which I will possibly see but I will avoid the Wozzeck as there is enough in life to depress me without seeing it and I think I’m on holiday at the time anyway . As for the Philip Glass piece, I was glad they previewed it because it does give me a chance to avoid it. I certainly couldn’t stand any more of that screeching .


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

DavidA said:


> As for the Philip Glass piece, I was glad they previewed it because it does give me a chance to avoid it. I certainly couldn't stand any more of that screeching .


It's only screeching because of the modern singing. You should have heard the way Caruso, Ponselle, and Ruffo sang Philip Glass.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barelytenor said:


> I ate grapes. Quietly.
> 
> Kind regards, :tiphat:
> 
> George


I ate my sandwiches and a flask of tea before it began and an ice cream during the interval. Unfortunately a guy near me decided to rustle a bag of sweets during In Questa Reggia. He is now walking around headless!

:tiphat:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

amfortas said:


> It's only screeching because of the modern singing. You should have heard the way Caruso, Ponselle, and Ruffo sang Philip Glass.


:lol: :lol:............................


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Very gratifying to come home from a glorious weekend away in leaf-changing territory (Vermont) to hear all the positive praise for Turandot and its wonderful principals. 
I shall have the privilege of seeing the Encore of this production on Wednesday evening when we take our Shake Shack dinners* to a 6:30 pm almost-empty theater showing in HD with other friends.

*nothing noisy, just hamburgers and milkshakes!


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

nina foresti said:


> Very gratifying to come home from a glorious weekend away in leaf-changing territory (Vermont) to hear all the positive praise for Turandot and its wonderful principals.
> I shall have the privilege of seeing the Encore of this production on Wednesday evening when we take our Shake Shack dinners* to a 6:30 pm almost-empty theater showing in HD with other friends.
> 
> *nothing noisy, just hamburgers and milkshakes!


You are so lucky! Our local theater is very prissy about bringing in "outside food and drink." I even have to smuggle in my water bottle and grapes/nuts! I thought PP&P were great despite one reviewer dissing them. You know what they say about critics!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Barelytenor said:


> You are so lucky! Our local theater is very prissy about bringing in "outside food and drink." I even have to smuggle in my water bottle and grapes/nuts! I thought PP&P were great despite one reviewer dissing them. You know what they say about critics!


I should mention that I would not bring in such a display of food from a fast food place nearby during the Saturday afternoon packed HD's. But this theater has less than 20 people in it during the Encore performances, so we all can get away with much less restrictions.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barelytenor said:


> You are so lucky! Our local theater is very prissy about bringing in "outside food and drink." I even have to smuggle in my water bottle and grapes/nuts! I thought PP&P were great despite one reviewer dissing them. You know what they say about critics!


I take sandwiches and a flask of tea! PP&P were good. Let's face it, the miseries have to diss something! :lol:


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

*Biirgit Nilsson and Jussi Björling: Conclusion of Turandot, Act II "In questa reggia"*

Just for comparison purposes 

I admire any tenor that has the stones to go up against Nilsson in this role, but I slightly favor Björling over Corelli in these measures. Even though Corelli has more brute force, I like Björling's tone quality. And even though he has high notes for days, he seems to be pushing in places to keep up.

Your mileage may differ. And that's OK.
Enjoy!

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Goerke is better in Wagner where the top notes are not so important. She often goes flat in the stratosphere. It is interesting that in the clip of her on Youtube in In Questa Regia, it cuts out before the high notes. Maybe for good reason. She was often flat 15 years ago in Norma in Seattle before the voice got so gargantuan.


The top notes are not so important in Wagner? What heresy is this of which you speak? Seattle, you do surprise me!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> The top notes are not so important in Wagner? What heresy is this of which you speak? Seattle, you do surprise me!


Brunnhilde's part in _Walkure_ lies a bit lower than the other _Ring_ operas, but _Siegfried_ and _Gotterdammerung _certainly require a powerful top, as does Isolde. It's certainly true, though, that other composers keep the soprano higher longer. With Wagner it's usually just isolated notes above A, much as with his tenor roles.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> The top notes are not so important in Wagner? What heresy is this of which you speak? Seattle, you do surprise me!


I should have been more specific. Yes you need a strong top for Wagner, but in most of the Wagner operas B's and C's are rare. Helen Traubel, Kirsten Flagstad and Eileen Farrell all, after the bloom of youth, transposed all the high notes. Jessye Norman in a concert version of The Immolation Scene transposed ALL the notes above G to a harmonic lower. I would say anyone today who was a serious Wagner fan would pay great money if they could go back in time to the 30's to 60's to hear any of these greats singing even with altered high notes. Of course in the hands of a freak like Nilsson or Jones, the high C's of Siegfried can be electrifying as well as the climax of the Dawn Duet of Siegfried and Siegmund. Still, a lot of Wagner can be sung successfully with the range of a mezzo soprano, but with stamina in the F 5 to A5 territory. I don't believe the taxing Immolation Scene ever goes above an A or A#. Correct me if I am mistaken.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't believe the taxing Immolation Scene ever goes above an A or A#. Correct me if I am mistaken.


A single B-natural at "die lachende Lohe," otherwise nothing above Bb.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barelytenor said:


> Just for comparison purposes
> 
> I admire any tenor that has the stones to go up against Nilsson in this role, but I slightly favor Björling over Corelli in these measures. Even though Corelli has more brute force, I like Björling's tone quality. And even though he has high notes for days, he seems to be pushing in places to keep up.
> 
> ...


Yes great! Thanks for this.


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## ThaNotoriousNIC (Jun 29, 2020)

I saw this recording of Turandot last night as it was circulating through the All Arts PBS subsidiary station a few months back after I DVR'd it. I am fairly familiar with the music of the opera from past listens on Spotify but this is the first time I watched a recording of it with subtitles/libretto. I agree with most people's assessment of the singing with particular shout outs to the singer who performed as Liu and James Morris as Timur. I prefer Goerke in her Ring Cycle role as Brunhilde, but I definitely recognized some of the power I saw from her Brunhilde in the big Act II aria. 

Seeing a full production with libretto didn't sway my opinion of the opera all that much; however, it did help me to make more sense of the plot and what is happening in the story in the particular parts I like. As I have probably mentioned in other threads, my personal favorite parts of Turandot are the fanfare and entrance of the Emperor in Act II and Liu's death/procession in Act III. 

Does anyone know of or recommend any recordings of alternative endings made by other composers for Turandot? I am not really a fan of the traditional ending by Alfano.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ThaNotoriousNIC said:


> Does anyone know of or recommend any recordings of alternative endings made by other composers for Turandot? I am not really a fan of the traditional ending by Alfano.


The only other composer I know of who wrote a final scene for it is Luciano Berio. It's rarely used, but there are a few performances of it on YouTube.

Alfano's original, longer ending (my preference) has been done a number of times and can be found on YT. He subsequently composed a shorter one, and this was pruned still further by Toscanini, giving us the one usually done now.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Deleted post deleted post


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Janet Maguire created an ending that she claims is much closer to the sketches left by Puccini than Alfano's. Based on reading her article (which I found available free somewhere, but I can't find it now), I suspect it is, but whether it is better music would take a performance to decide and it has unfortunately never been performed. According to her, Alfano used Puccini's sketches out of order or in ways contrary to his instructions (for example the theme of "Principessa di morte" after Liu's death is Puccini's, but it's marked mezzo piano, iirc). He also didn't use many of the sketches, and not because they were too fragmentary. Apparently Puccini often indicated what text he wanted associated with what music, and that does not correspond to the version we know. It was a very interesting article.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Janet Maguire created an ending that she claims is much closer to the sketches left by Puccini than Alfano's. Based on reading her article (which I found available free somewhere, but I can't find it now), I suspect it is, but whether it is better music would take a performance to decide and it has unfortunately never been performed. According to her, Alfano used Puccini's sketches out of order or in ways contrary to his instructions (for example the theme of "Principessa di morte" after Liu's death is Puccini's, but it's marked mezzo piano, iirc). He also didn't use many of the sketches, and not because they were too fragmentary. Apparently Puccini often indicated what text he wanted associated with what music, and that does not correspond to the version we know. It was a very interesting article.


I assume this is the article in which she discusses her work in detail. It would be a lot more useful if we could hear the music, but this is interesting nonetheless.

https://sfopera.com/contentassets/0e33d53d345f454eae20f1c7664d3025/article---janet-maguire.pdf


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> I assume this is the article in which she discusses her work in detail. It would be a lot more useful if we could hear the music, but this is interesting nonetheless.
> 
> https://sfopera.com/contentassets/0e33d53d345f454eae20f1c7664d3025/article---janet-maguire.pdf


Yes, that's it, thank you. I wish her work would be recorded or at least the score published in full.


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