# work in progress



## MJTTOMB

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https://soundcloud.com/mtriplettcomp%2Fmovements-in-air

a short movement from a set of post-tonal studies i'm currently working on. trying to develop my own language while playing around with the concepts of form and lines


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## Jeremy Marchant

What does "post-tonal" mean?


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## MJTTOMB

it's a broad umbrella term that i use to describe musical language conceived outside of the constraints of conventional tonality

while it's not a terribly specific term, i still find it preferable to "atonality" because while "atonality" would be accurate in the sense that i don't frequently use clearly established tonal centers, the term is often wrongly equated with dodecaphony and i don't want to open the door to that association.

why do you ask? it's a fairly common term, i would have thought you would be familiar


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## Couchie

I love this. Sheet music?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MJTTOMB said:


> it's a broad umbrella term that i use to describe musical language conceived outside of the constraints of conventional tonality
> 
> while it's not a terribly specific term, i still find it preferable to "atonality" because while "atonality" would be accurate in the sense that i don't frequently use clearly established tonal centers, the term is often wrongly equated with dodecaphony and i don't want to open the door to that association.
> 
> why do you ask? it's a fairly common term, i would have thought you would be familiar


Non-tonal is more accurate than atonal and post-tonal. I must say I've never heard the term post-tonal either.


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## MJTTOMB

i think a quote in this article actually sums up what i mean when i say "post-tonal" much better than i ever could:



> As a student there was a time when I felt that any harmonic choice existed solely between tonality and atonality: a sort of inescapable Scylla and Charybdis lying in wait. _Now I feel that there is a 'post tonal' music out there that many composers are tapping in to, one that treats consonance as an individual sonic moment, rather than as a fragment in an obsessive functional scheme._ An example might Unsuk Chin, whose violin concerto shows the influence of later Ligeti in the way its often attractive harmonies unfold, and are counterpointed against passages of complex dissonance. The use of consonance allows for contrast, and consequently richer structural possibilities.


perhaps it's not a term that has made its rounds in the world of critics and theorists, but i think among composers in the 21st century (or at least those i speak to) it's on the rise as a term that describes something neither fully tonal nor atonal.


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## aleazk

MJTTOMB said:


> ...shows the influence of later Ligeti in the way its often attractive harmonies unfold, and are counterpointed against passages of complex dissonance. The use of consonance allows for contrast, and consequently richer structural possibilities.


In find this very interesting, and, in fact, I try to do this in my compositions.


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## chee_zee

I think a lot of dutilleux would qualify as post tonal, honestly any time I heard the term I just thought it meant the era after common practice, circa 1910.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MJTTOMB said:


> i think a quote in this article actually sums up what i mean when i say "post-tonal" much better than i ever could:
> 
> perhaps it's not a term that has made its rounds in the world of critics and theorists, but i think among composers in the 21st century (or at least those i speak to) it's on the rise as a term that describes something neither fully tonal nor atonal.


Thanks. I think recently I've been developing a style that is more on the tonal side of things, without being tonal. Let me find the thread so I can show you what I mean.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Alright, here it is (click on this funny thing) --> .


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## PetrB

MJTTOMB said:


> i think a quote in this article actually sums up what i mean when i say "post-tonal" much better than i ever could:
> 
> perhaps it's not a term that has made its rounds in the world of critics and theorists, but i think among composers in the 21st century (or at least those i speak to) it's on the rise as a term that describes something neither fully tonal nor atonal.


Ah, academia, or an academic within academe, eager to churn out yet another neologism, spits out yet another useless term, like 'rhythmic dissonance,' etc. 

There is nothing 'new' about the vocabulary, since Schoenberg's Kammersymphonie Op. 9 at least. You still need to vary a 'tonal center' whether it be another emphasized pitch, an interval audibly transposed to a new area, or an 'anchor' harmony - again 'transposed' in lieu of some sense of modulation -- I'd scan the piece for the presence, and frequency of all pitches, and see which one is showing up, to my ear, just a little too often


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## MJTTOMB

PetrB said:


> Ah, academia, or an academic within academe, eager to churn out yet another neologism, spits out yet another useless term, like 'rhythmic dissonance,' etc.
> 
> There is nothing 'new' about the vocabulary, since Schoenberg's Kammersymphonie Op. 9 at least. You still need to vary a 'tonal center' whether it be another emphasized pitch, an interval audibly transposed to a new area, or an 'anchor' harmony - again 'transposed' in lieu of some sense of modulation -- I'd scan the piece for the presence, and frequency of all pitches, and see which one is showing up, to my ear, just a little too often


can we move back to discussion of the work i posted? if you want to discuss whether "post-tonality" is a useless neologism, please do that in your own thread. it has no relevance to the work itself.


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## chee_zee

if I recall correctly, havent you attempted your own harmonic language thru stacking 4ths, 7ths, and 2nds? is that system used here any, it certainly doesnt seem like it? care to elaborate more on the vocab of this particular piece?

I found it moving (tension), and mellow/melancholic (relief) with spurts of dissonance (hypertension) and the occasional ultra consonant or extremely touching melody (hyper relief). The ending works pretty well imo, but I think you should add in a certain special tone to really shake things up, really add to the element of surprise. A surrounding of the tonal center (if there is one at the last sonority, hesitate to use the term 'chord') sometime called superflous octaves (Gb and G# if G is the center) works well, as does having a either #5 or #11 along with the natural 5th.


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## PetrB

MJTTOMB said:


> can we move back to discussion of the work i posted? if you want to discuss whether "post-tonality" is a useless neologism, please do that in your own thread. it has no relevance to the work itself.


I discussed the work - you need to scan it for what I thought was too much repetition of mainly one pitch.

It is you who thunk up the neologism and spent several responses 'defending it.' That also meant mucking about with what you meant by the neologism - I didn't hear anything 'radically new' in your tonal / non-tonal vocabulary, somewhat pleasant sounding as it is.

There is toooo much of one pitch, perhaps a particular harmony, which comes up too frequently: as you know, in non-tonal music, that is enough to establish 'home.' The piece starts to 'go somewhere' but then it goes too often and rapidly home.

I've found it nearly impossible to unknit what has been written, whatever weaknesses are in a piece then remain part of that piece -- perhaps my mind got so set in making it that I 'can't go back' to re-write it. Ergo, I suggest to look for that weakness mentioned, and keep that in mind as something to avoid in your next piece.


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## MJTTOMB

PetrB said:


> I discussed the work - you need to scan it for what I thought was too much repetition of mainly one pitch.


i've done that. pardon my frankness, but regarding pitch your ear is mistaken (you're right later about the overuse of certain harmonic shapes, however). i checked the frequency of appearance of each pitch individually and ran the numbers. there were no outliers. all of them fell within a very close range of one another.



> It is you who thunk up the neologism and spent several responses 'defending it.' That also meant mucking about with what you meant by the neologism - I didn't hear anything 'radically new' in your tonal / non-tonal vocabulary, somewhat pleasant sounding as it is.


while i've been using the term for some time, that in no way means i invented it. there are textbooks available on "post-tonal theory". i actually first heard the term when discussing scriabin's language with a friend of mine (now a graduate student at juilliard). i'm not aiming to create anything radically new, so your point is somewhat inconsequential. that has never been my goal and never will be. i only want to explore different languages of sound, as it gives me catharsis and, while it may baffle you that some people write for personal purposes, a brief respite from mental illness.



> There is toooo much of one pitch, perhaps a particular harmony, which comes up too frequently: as you know, in non-tonal music, that is enough to establish 'home.' The piece starts to 'go somewhere' but then it goes too often and rapidly home.


pitch, no. harmony i will agree- i gravitate at this point in my writing too much toward french 6ths, their enharmonic equivalents, and similarly shaped chords. that said, it's a habit i'm trying to work away from (this piece in particular, for instance, is a lot better about it than my latest string quartet). that said, i would disagree that using-for example-planed dominant 7ths implies any sort of harmonic home. without a cadence, there's not really any sort of home pitch established. the only thing established would be perhaps an over-reliance on a particular harmonic shape.



> I've found it nearly impossible to unknit what has been written, whatever weaknesses are in a piece then remain part of that piece -- perhaps my mind got so set in making it that I 'can't go back' to re-write it. Ergo, I suggest to look for that weakness mentioned, and keep that in mind as something to avoid in your next piece.


this is good advice, and i thank you for it.


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## MJTTOMB

The original work in progress has long since been deleted, but if anybody is interested in listening to the final product you can find it here.


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