# Do you consider the laptop to be a musical instrument?



## Edward Elgar

I'm curious to find out what you all think on this matter.

Whatever your opinion, why not give us an insight into why you feel the way you do?


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## Tapkaara

Yes, definitely a keyboard instrument.


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## marval

Not really, but that is just my opinion. To make a laptop play music it surely needs software, which is not already there. So without the software can it play music? 


Margaret


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## Krummhorn

Yes, given that some form of music application software exists on it. 
If just playing audio cd's on one, then my answer would be No.


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## World Violist

This is a touchy subject... it makes one think about what a musical instrument is. However, I think laptops aren't musical instruments for the most part because they aren't really used as such. Sure, composers may use them to compose, but that's composing. And some weird person may well use them as percussion instruments, but that's giving your computer a very short life expectancy. So I'd just as soon say "no" and get on with the more tried-and-true, effective instruments.


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## Atabey

Yes,more so than the guitar...


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## Lang

A laptop? Why a laptop particularly? I think a PC can be a musical instrument, in the sense that it can be an instrument for creating music.

I do MIDI versions of renaissance dance music, which are orchestrated unauthentically but creatively. It is probably a pretty low-grade kind of music, but music it is.


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## Yagan Kiely

> Yes,more so than the guitar...


lol.

I'm sick of hearing ****** loud and incoherent noise coming from music tech computers and their attached speakers. Until I actually hear some music come out of them they are _NOT_ instruments.

Basically I'm reserving my opinion until they prove it.


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## Ciel_Rouge

This is an interesting question indeed and sort of similar to "are stereo speakers instruments"? Well, obviously they emit the organised sound closely matching that... of original instruments used in a recording.

I actually suspect that this thread was inspired by seeing some videos of music actually composed for speakers used as instruments (with interference applied to them or whatever) or the one with a laptop used with a chamber orchestra to "mix live" baroque pieces or something like that.

Well, I shall give a twist to the thread by saying this: I think the true instruments are acoustic instruments. The electronic ones are just artificially creating something which may match the original acoustic ones. I have no intention of igniting an endless "ping pong" of argumentative posts. Just use it as an example of a way of thinking, not necessarily right or wrong. However, I have come to some interesting points in this area and would be more than happy to see your comments on the following:

1. electronic pianos

They can also play the sounds of "violin" etc. are an obvious attempt at closely matching the "original" in one box and yet are no match for a separate instrument with its subtle individual colours and richness - so even though you can learn how to play piano using such devices or imitate the sound of symphonic violins, it still is no match for a Bosendorfer or a Stradivarius 

2. things like theremin etc.

They can imitate eerie soprano-like sounds as well as cello-like etc. and still - do not fully reflect a real human voice or a real cello

3. acoustic vs. electro-acoustic

Come to think of it, many cultures around the world developed very similar instruments - regardless whether Chinese, Japanese, Native American, African etc. - there are many similar flute-like instruments, guitar-like instruments, harp-like etc. So I tend to believe that the instruments themselves are just physical representations of some higher order of more abstract and universal things like harmonies etc. However, these abstract things gain their perceivable shape and richness only when physical objects interact with the air whereas a stream of electrons coming into the equation will only give an additional twist or an approximation lacking depth and multidimensionality.

Just to give you an example for the last hypothesis: electric guitars are loved by metal fans for their ability to create powerful "heavy" sound - and yet, the cello section of an orchestra can give you something as heavy and intense, and yet a bit more complex and perhaps more pleasant to the ear. Similarly, guitars are loved for their "rough" sound but this is also something you typically get from a wheel fiddle (also called the hurdy gurdy):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurdy_gurdy

I generally believe the common misconception that electronically you can create more varied sounds is somehow incorrect - in the way that there are a lot of forgotten or only regionally known instruments (wheel fiddle, daf, cajon etc.) which can offer a lot in terms of variety.

And yet there is another twist to the story. Having said all that, I rarely listen to live instruments playing. So, I am listening to an approximation generated by means of the speakers or earbuds combined with the circuitry of a computer, home stereo system or portable media player. And therefore, the question could be: in our daily listening, do we actually listen to instruments?


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## Yagan Kiely

> 2. theremin


The only electronic device that is an instrument (be it limited).


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## Ciel_Rouge

And how about this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondes_Martenot


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## Yagan Kiely

Completely ruins Turangalîla-Symphonie - absolutely amazing piece, but it just sounds like a childish bird type whistle whenever that horrible contraption plays. Haven't heard it other pieces. Plus, it lacks the expresivity and subtlety of wind similar sounding/played actual instruments. The theremin is limited in it's expression, but at least it does have some.


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## ecg_fa

I think on balance a laptop CAN be a musical instrument, if it is used by someone in a 
musically interesting way, not just dial twisting or 'tapping' emptily. In general, I'm not a great fan of electronic/electric instruments, but I think they can be effective at times. I guess I think more of those in the context of jazz or even some exploratory pop overall though. But some of the laptop effects by skilled player like, say, percussionist Ikue Mori, I find very interesting & appealing.

Ed


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## Yagan Kiely

Let me reword what I mean:

If everyone in the world played trumpet or oboe the way I did, I would not consider it an instrument. Now relate that to a computer.

Also, it MUST be creative, as said above, adjusting the volume of a track you pre-created (I know it is much more involved than that...), does not constitute enough creativity in my mind.


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## Frasier

A laptop is just a general purpose device so it can be converted into a synthesiser/VSI and/or midi controller with software/samples and played from a chromatic keyboard or presumably any other device that comes with musical intent.


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## Guest

*Well you know what my answer will be*,  but just to make sure I have tried blowing it, bowing it, plucking it, I have tried playing the keys and hitting it with Drum sticks, in desperation I even tried sucking it, So* NO *IMHO it is not a musical instrument that is not to say that it can't be used to make notes into a melody etc and I have heard a few examples i.e. Douglas Lilburn, it is a tool, just that.


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## Yagan Kiely

> *Well you know what my answer will be*,  but just to make sure I have tried blowing it, bowing it, plucking it, I have tried playing the keys and hitting it with Drum sticks, in desperation I even tried sucking it, So* NO *IMHO it is not a musical instrument that is not to say that it can't be used to make notes into a melody etc and I have heard a few examples i.e. Douglas Lilburn, it is a tool, just that.


As much as I agree, I don't see _your_ reasoning. I don't see how not blowing it makes it not an instrument. And for the record, all instruments are just tools for producing and expressing music, including the voice.


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## Guest

Yagan you are being pedantic so if you agree with me but not my reasoning pray give your reasoning. btw if it went over your head I was trying to be humorous.


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## Lang

Yagan Kiely said:


> The only electronic device that is an instrument (be it limited).


I take it you have never heard an ondes Martenot?

Ah, I see you have. Ok - it ruins the Turangalila Symphony and, presumably the many other Messiaen and Honegger works which incorporate it. I wonder why those composers insisted on using it then? Perhaps they lacked your own superior musical aestheic.


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## Yagan Kiely

> So* NO *IMHO it is not a musical instrument that is not to say that it can't be used to make notes into a melody etc and I have heard a few examples i.e. Douglas Lilburn, it is a tool, just that.


I thought this section was where you were being serious, and the other you were too, but using humours aspects. But okay.



> Yagan you are being pedantic so if you agree with me but not my reasoning pray give your reasoning.


Never said I had any. Maybe later in life, when I devote some time and effort into it I'll give an opinion.



> Perhaps they lacked your own superior musical aestheic.


Maybe indeed. Nazis probably injected Messiaen with a drug to make him aesthetically retarded in assessing whether an obscure instrument is exceptional or not.


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## Elgarian

I think the problem is that different people are working with different definitions of the term 'musical instrument'. Until we all agree about what that definition is, we can't get any resolution of the issue of whether a laptop is one. However, on the most basic level: since the laptop can be programmed to play different notes when different keys are pressed, it seems to me to have all the _potential_ for being called an instrument (no less than a synthesiser, say).

(Is a triangle a musical instrument, by the way?)


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## Guest

We all know what is *meant *by "A musical instrument" I would say a musical instrument is that which is meant to make music, A computer is a tool that can do many things but was not primary intended to be played as a musical instrument, that it can be used to produce notes, chords etc is not contested. 
I must admit I am somewhat biased as I prefer acoustic instruments and not those that rely on electricity to produce sound, Electric Guitars, synthesisers and the such leave me unmoved. 
So we now debate the definition of musical instrument, I have seen it attempted on other sites and nothing ever seems to get resolved, but I will join in, it is a bit of fun.


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## Elgarian

Andante said:


> We all know what is *meant *by "A musical instrument" I would say a musical instrument is that which is meant to make music, A computer is a tool that can do many things but was not primary intended to be played as a musical instrument, that it can be used to produce notes, chords etc is not contested.
> I must admit I am somewhat biased as I prefer acoustic instruments and not those that rely on electricity to produce sound, Electric Guitars, synthesisers and the such leave me unmoved.
> So we now debate the definition of musical instrument, I have seen it attempted on other sites and nothing ever seems to get resolved, but I will join in, it is a bit of fun.


Well, now we have a start, with two apparently clear choices:
1. A musical instrument is a device _intended_ to be used to play music.
2. A musical instrument is a device _which can be used_ to play music.

If we accept (1) as the definition (I guess most of us would favour this), then it looks like a laptop isn't one. If we accept (2) as the definition, than a laptop is one. But I don't think it's so clear as that. A 'laptop with suitable music-playing software' could be described as a composite device intended to be used to play music. So then, it is one. And round in circles we go.

My aim is really just to observe that this _appears to be_ a discussion about laptops, but actually it's a debate about what the term 'musical instrument' is generally accepted to mean.


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## Weston

Yagan Kiely said:


> The only electronic device that is an instrument (be it limited).


Your nervous sytem is electronic, to paraphrase Wayne Shorter.

Electronic devices are not musical instruments in themselves until they have a controler plugged in, like a midi keyboard or any other controller such as a guitar or other acoustic instrument. But in the latter case they become more of an effect processor. A mouse, keypad, or joystick are controllers too, but less efficient ones. Start combining all of the above and you begin to develope a more versatile expressive instrument.

But then I think a garage door and a rubber band are musical instruments.


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## Guest

Weston said:


> But then I think a garage door and a rubber band are musical instruments.


Yes, and a lot of modern composers think the same


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## Yagan Kiely

> (Is a triangle a musical instrument, by the way?)


Not on it's own, I see percussive instruments as a set of tools that when put together make an instrument. Timpani *may* have argument on it's own.


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## Guest

Elgarian said:


> Well, now we have a start, with two apparently clear choices:
> 1. A musical instrument is a device _intended_ to be used to play music.
> 2. A musical instrument is a device _which can be used_ to play music.
> 
> My aim is really just to observe that this _appears to be_ a discussion about laptops, but actually it's a debate about what the term 'musical instrument' is generally accepted to mean.


If I may:
So you pick up a piece of drift wood and tap it on a boulder it produces a sound, it is still a piece of drift wood, You think about this and gather more drift wood you find that the length of each piece produces a different note but each one is still only drift wood, so eventually you construct a board with enough pieces arranged shortest to longest to form an apparatus that can produce 3 octaves now you have a musical instrument.


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## confuoco

Yagan Kiely said:


> Completely ruins Turangalîla-Symphonie - absolutely amazing piece, but it just sounds like a childish bird type whistle whenever that horrible contraption plays. Haven't heard it other pieces. Plus, it lacks the expresivity and subtlety of wind similar sounding/played actual instruments. The theremin is limited in it's expression, but at least it does have some.


Turangalila-Symphonie is absolutely unimaginable without Ondes Martenot. It has colour, structural, melodic function in this work, what acoustic instrument could replace it in its glissando efects in this symphony? One can like or dislike this work, but to like it with reservation like this, it is funny. Without Ondes it would lost its identity.


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## Yagan Kiely

> Turangalila-Symphonie is absolutely unimaginable without Ondes Martenot. It has colour, structural, melodic function in this work, what acoustic instrument could replace it in its glissando efects in this symphony? One can like or dislike this work, but to like it with reservation like this, it is funny. Without Ondes it would lost its identity.


Strange, I always liked the piano part. Obviously every other part of the symphony is completely opbsolete. My bad!

When it isn't doing it foul glisses, it is virtually inaudable (or at least dispensable), and when it does do the glisses, it sounds horrible. Glisses (I mean glisses, not the varients) on violins sounds sickling (I mean that literally), and the same result can be achived with other methods. There is not musical reasoning to compose for that instrument only possible extra musical reasoning. It is a very unsubtle instrument. The only possible reasoning is that he wanted to do something different. A reasoning that almost all 20th century composers have been plagued with.


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## jurianbai

Yes, laptop is a musical instrument. Close your laptop monitor and use a drum stick to jam on top of it, I suspect it will be a fun percussion instrument in the coming age.


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## Guest

Yagan Kiely said:


> he wanted to do something different. A reasoning that almost all 20th century composers have been plagued with.


I have to agree with that


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## Lang

Yagan Kiely said:


> Strange, I always liked the piano part. Obviously every other part of the symphony is completely opbsolete. My bad!
> 
> When it isn't doing it foul glisses, it is virtually inaudable (or at least dispensable), and when it does do the glisses, it sounds horrible. Glisses (I mean glisses, not the varients) on violins sounds sickling (I mean that literally), and the same result can be achived with other methods. There is not musical reasoning to compose for that instrument only possible extra musical reasoning. It is a very unsubtle instrument. The only possible reasoning is that he wanted to do something different. A reasoning that almost all 20th century composers have been plagued with.


I really don't understand this view. If it is inaudible it is the fault of the player. 'Unsubtle' implies that the performer does not have full control over the sounds produced. The ondes can be played as a keyboard, with a variety of registrations, but it can also be played like a string instrument, so that the player has full control of intonation, dynamics, vibrato and attack. To compare the ondes unfavourably with the theremin, which I have only ever heard played out of tune (I don't think it can be played any other way) seems to me to be perverse.

To say that Messiaen only used the ondes Martenot to be different seems to be really wrong-headed. A bit like some of the postings we have seen on here which say that Mozart was a rubbish composer and people only listen to him for reasons of snobbery. The ondes Martenot is an integral part of many of Messiaen's important works, and he wrote for the instrument with skill and understanding. The 'Jardin du sommeil d'amour' movement of the Turangalila would not exist were it not for the ondes Martenot. That one movement, in my view, is sufficient justification to regard the ondes as an authentic and expressive musical instrument.


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## Elgarian

Andante said:


> If I may:
> So you pick up a piece of drift wood and tap it on a boulder it produces a sound, it is still a piece of drift wood, You think about this and gather more drift wood you find that the length of each piece produces a different note but each one is still only drift wood, so eventually you construct a board with enough pieces arranged shortest to longest to form an apparatus that can produce 3 octaves now you have a musical instrument.


Yes, I think I agree that that pretty well covers it. By the same argument, if you pick up a laptop and poke at its keys, you hear a few clattering noises, but it's still a laptop. But if you get someone to write software for it, so that each key produces a different note - then you have a musical instrument.


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## Yagan Kiely

> If it is inaudible it is the fault of the player.


It is inaudible because of the quality of it's sound. If it were to be louder it would not balance.


> 'Unsubtle' implies that the performer does not have full control over the sounds produced.


It can imply it all it wants. I'm talking about the sound it produces: it's limited approach to notes (I'm using limited metaphorically).



> The ondes can be played as a keyboard, with a variety of registrations, but it can also be played like a string instrument, so that the player has full control of intonation, dynamics, vibrato and attack. To compare the ondes unfavourably with the theremin, which I have only ever heard played out of tune (I don't think it can be played any other way) seems to me to be perverse.


I like the therimin like I like Schoenberg, very limited expressivity, but what it does express, it does very well. I find the ondes to sound like a joke no matter how it is played.



> That one movement, in my view, is sufficient justification to regard the ondes as an authentic and expressive musical instrument.


Again, it fails to express anything to be, it just sits their rudly interrupting the beauty and colour of the instruments surrounding it.


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## confuoco

Yagan Kiely said:


> It is a very unsubtle instrument. The only possible reasoning is that he wanted to do something different. A reasoning that almost all 20th century composers have been plagued with.


It is a very frivolous view and unrighteous judgment in Messiaen's case. I have to agree with Lang 100%. Messiaen also wrote few solo works for Ondes. For you it is unsutubtle instrument, but for him it was fascinating. It has a lot of do with his obsession by bird singing...there is a lot of accomplished glisses and tones apart 12 pitch classes in it and Ondes are capable to play in this manner much more than acoustic instruments.


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## Herzeleide

confuoco said:


> It is a very frivolous view and unrighteous judgment in Messiaen's case. I have to agree with Lang 100%. Messiaen also wrote few solo works for Ondes. For you it is unsutubtle instrument, but for him it was fascinating. It has a lot of do with his obsession by bird singing...there is a lot of accomplished glisses and tones apart 12 pitch classes in it and Ondes are capable to play in this manner much more than acoustic instruments.


I agree. And the Ondes Martenot is by no means limited - I have heard solo music for the instrument that sounded completely different from how it's used in Turangalila.
Incidentally, Messiaen is credited by Alexander Goehr (Professor of Composition at Cambridge) as having the most sensitive pair of ears he had ever come across.


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## Ciel_Rouge

Andante said:


> If I may:
> So you pick up a piece of drift wood and tap it on a boulder it produces a sound, it is still a piece of drift wood, [cut] so eventually you construct a board with enough pieces arranged shortest to longest to form an apparatus that can produce 3 octaves now you have a musical instrument.


I lean towards Andante's way of thinking. ANYTHING can be OCCASIONALLY ADAPTED for making music. I once saw a young girl striking her fingernails against her upper teeth and playing out "tunes" this way  Similarly, you can use ANY physical object imaginable to play music - empty or half empty mineral water bottles (I noticed they make surprisingly rich and complex "exotic" percussion, especially the big ones), rocks, combs etc.

I guess that thing becomes a real musical instrument when it is used solely for that purpose and is somehow refined in that direction.

Still, I think all instruments, occasionally adapted or really built with that purpose in mind, are merely physical representations of universal, abstract things like scales, harmonics etc. I suppose this is why many separated, completely different cultures around the world created very similar sets of instruments - the Chinese also have "flutes", "fiddles", "guitars" etc.



confuoco said:


> Messiaen also wrote few solo works for Ondes. For you it is unsutubtle instrument, but for him it was fascinating. It has a lot of do with his obsession by bird singing...there is a lot of accomplished glisses and tones apart 12 pitch classes in it and Ondes are capable to play in this manner much more than acoustic instruments.


Hi confuoco, putting bird singing into perspective slightly changes my view of the Ondes Martenot. Perhaps it is all a matter of finding the "right" pieces for both the theremin and Ondes.

And by the way, Ondes Martenot was invented by a cellist, Maurice Martenot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Martenot


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## Guest

Elgarian said:


> Yes, I think I agree that that pretty well covers it. By the same argument, if you pick up a laptop and poke at its keys, you hear a few clattering noises, but it's still a laptop. But if you get someone to write software for it, so that each key produces a different note - then you have a musical instrument.


Is that how it is done? 
You finish up with a keyboard, which you can play in real time with various tones and effects as say an Organ, so in fact you have converted the PC into a portable keyboard which of course has to have the sound amplified.
It is (maybe) just another amazing thing that PCs can do, I still contend that as it was not designed to be a musical instrument it isn't one


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## Elgarian

Andante said:


> Is that how it is done?
> You finish up with a keyboard, which you can play in real time with various tones and effects as say an Organ, so in fact you have converted the PC into a portable keyboard which of course has to have the sound amplified.
> It is (maybe) just another amazing thing that PCs can do, I still contend that as it was not designed to be a musical instrument it isn't one


I was drawing a parallel with your driftwood. Your bits of driftwood weren't designed to produce music either, but by 'organising' them in the very special way you described, they can be transformed into a musical instrument. Similarly, the software 'organises' the laptop in such a way as to transform its original purpose from a general one to a musical one. This new composite object - 'laptop-plus-software' - surely is designed for the production of music no less than the driftwood xylophone?


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## Guest

Elgarian said:


> This new composite object - 'laptop-plus-software' - surely is designed for the production of music no less than the driftwood xylophone?


Hmmmm  Have you ever been present when one was being played to a musical audience? 
I must add, the point is that the PC has a program added to enable it to play music where as the Dulcimer was made as a musical instrument.


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## confuoco

Herzeleide said:


> Incidentally, Messiaen is credited by Alexander Goehr (Professor of Composition at Cambridge) as having the most sensitive pair of ears he had ever come across.


Easy to believe that. Furthermore, Messiaen has quite well known "disorder" called synesthesia. 
I think Messiaen is one of the most original and independent composers in the history of music and it is not easy to understand him. Exoticism, catolicism, bird songs, mystique...his way of thinking and visions are so far from minds of ordinary people (take in consideration just his "crazy" names for works and movements). That's why he never will come to wide popularity, I am afraid.


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## Ciel_Rouge

If by popularity you mean Britney Spears kind of popularity - probably not  Still, he is rather well known among classical music listeners, especially those tending to listen to more pieces from mid and late 20th century era. And I must admit that although I usually do not go further than Holst and Sibelius, I think Messiaen is one of the 20th century composers that I might give a closer listen one day. I liked "Jardin du Sommeil d’amour" and I also like "Le Banquet Celeste". And I do like the "crazy" titles


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## Weston

Andante said:


> Hmmmm  Have you ever been present when one was being played to a musical audience?


This is quite common actually. Most classical music buffs don't like the sound of synths, but one shouldn't judge an instrument by its unimaginatve performers. I have heard some 24 tone pieces played using a laptop (or at least a PC of some kind). What other way is there to accomplish that currently? It doesn't all have to be a bunch of so called "DJ's" playing around with a looped beat. I hate that garbage too.



Andante said:


> I must add, the point is that the PC has a program added to enable it to play music where as the Dulcimer was made as a musical instrument.


Then the software is the instrument and the PC is the housing and power source for the instrument -- actually the term is "host" I believe. With physical modeling softsynths - where the computer calculates how the sound bounces off the various sound boards or travels through pipes or brass tubes - you can "make" a virtual dulcimer that is as big as a bus if you want. Or a flute, or a flugelhorn -- or a Martian banjorgiano. The possibilities are endless.


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## Lang

confuoco said:


> .his way of thinking and visions are so far from minds of ordinary people (take in consideration just his "crazy" names for works and movements). That's why he never will come to wide popularity, I am afraid.


The thinking and visions of every genius are far from the minds of ordinary people. That is why they are so important to society, because when we hear what they say, they lift us somewhere we could not go on our own.


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## Edward Elgar

Yagan Kiely said:


> The only possible reasoning is that he wanted to do something different. A reasoning that almost all 20th century composers have been plagued with.


Correction; A reasoning that almost all composers (at least the great ones) since the dawn of time have been plagued with.

Also, have you ever thought that maybe Messiaen's intention was to include an "unsubtle instrument"? For gods sake, the man had just come out of a POW camp! The whole piece is filled with manic jubilation!

Anyway, I thought this thread was for the discussion of the laptop. There is a theremin thread, I'm not sure about a martenot thread but this could be arranged. Maybe to define an instrument we need to think about it's primary functions and not rant about our dislike of synthetic sound.


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## Yagan Kiely

> Correction; A reasoning that almost all composers (at least the great ones) since the dawn of time have been plagued with.


Well, since Beethoven. Beethoven was the first composer to actively try to write music that is considerably different that his predecessors and in another direction. Mozart, Haydn, Bach never did that. That isn't to say they are not innovative - there is a difference. Let me reiterate; they be different, for the purpose of being different.



> Anyway, I thought this thread was for the discussion of the laptop.


I never brought it up.


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## Herzeleide

Yagan Kiely said:


> Well, since Beethoven. Beethoven was the first composer to actively try to write music that is considerably different that his predecessors and in another direction.


Rubbish, the Ars Nova composers in France in the 14th century deliberately tried to do something different from their predecessors.


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## Yagan Kiely

In the limited concept of being different to be different, Beethoven was the first important figure, because after he did it, everyone did. The 20th century was plagued with the idea so much that they *sometimes* let that concept grow more important than the music itself. You got to stop living in a world of false dichotomies and strict literalness.


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## Herzeleide

Yagan Kiely said:


> In the limited concept of being different to be different, Beethoven was the first important figure, because after he did it, everyone did.


Everyone did, you say? What about Brahms?


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## Yagan Kiely

Thank you for proving my observation you coincidentally ignored.


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## Herzeleide

Yagan Kiely said:


> Thank you for proving my observation you coincidentally ignored.


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## Yagan Kiely

What a pretty picture, not really within the thirds 'rule' but I think it works, good portrayal of character.

Oh, can we get back on topic? AKA can you stop trying to derail the thread because of personal issues.


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## Edward Elgar

Yagan Kiely said:


> Well, since Beethoven. Beethoven was the first composer to actively try to write music that is considerably different that his predecessors and in another direction. Mozart, Haydn, Bach never did that.


Rubbish, Haydn included another movement onto the symphony! How much more radically different does he need to be?!

In any case, how do you suppose the styles of Bach and Mozart came about? The only reason we hear what we hear of Mozart is because of the revolutionaries that came before him. The revolutionaries that were plagued with the dreaded curse of being different so as to give us lovely tonal works!


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## Guest

Why are *certain people* going off topic ?? if you want to argue about Composers and their music why not start another thread!


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## Yagan Kiely

> Rubbish, Haydn included another movement onto the symphony! How much more radically different does he need to be?!


Please read what I said again. I never said they aren't different.



> In any case, how do you suppose the styles of Bach and Mozart came about? The only reason we hear what we hear of Mozart is because of the revolutionaries that came before him. The revolutionaries that were plagued with the dreaded curse of being different so as to give us lovely tonal works!


I never said being different is a curse. Please read and don't misrepresent what I have repeatedly said. Maybe it's too subtle, I don't know...


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## Ciel_Rouge

2nd that opinion - derailing threads is something we have luckily avoided for a very long time and it made this forum what it is now - a great and friendly place with lots of useful information. Let's just keep it that way. I do not fully understand the need to discuss the laptop as a musical instrument, still - I have seen some examples where it is used as such and it would be great if someone provided something like that.


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## sheetmusic2u

The only way they are an "instrument" is if you use the definition of "tool" for instrument. A computer is not a musical instrument any more than a radio is a musical instrument because it "plays" music. It is a tool (or piece of equipment) that can be used to play or create music, but, no, it is not an "instrument".

-------------------------------


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## Guest

Hmmm. Well, I voted "yes." Seems pretty simple. You can make music with laptops, so that means that they're instruments. I'm not sure why "original purpose" matters all that much. The turntable wasn't intended to be an instrument, but that doesn't keep dozens of people, from all over the musical map, from playing it as one. Same for the tape recorder or the radio (which one poster has already rejected as a musical instrument, on very shaky grounds, indeed).

Anything that can be made to sound is, potentially at least, a musical instrument. Is that so far off from how this whole music thing got started in the first place? It certainly wasn't "In the beginning there were pianos and violins." More like, "In the beginning there were logs and sticks and conch shells." Oh, and maybe a voice or two.

I wonder if Elgar would permit me to ask a question of the posters so far: How many of you have heard someone playing a laptop? Here's a youtube clip. (Youtube is not a good place to hear music, but it is *a* place.)

Since I've been to dozens of laptop concerts over the years (and know many laptop performers), I can say that this clip is only one tiny example of the immense capacity of a laptop for making music. (Laptop is only a designation for a type of computer, after all. And computer music has been around for about sixty years.)


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## Guest

some guy we meet again 
*Is a Motor Car a musical instrument?? * 
As far as the youtube link goes the question here should be, is this music?? I could only listen to the first 25sec to me it sounded like a lathe turning a piece of cast iron without any lubricants.


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## Yagan Kiely

> (Youtube is not a good place to hear music, but it is *a* place.)


The best place for 'new' music.


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## Yagan Kiely

Oh, and in relation to that youtube clip I stress my point again: I will not consider it an instrument until someone uses like one. i.e. they play music on it.


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## Elgarian

some guy said:


> I'm not sure why "original purpose" matters all that much.


I don't think it does - except purely in order to settle on an agreed definition of 'musical instrument' so that we're all talking about the same thing. We still don't seem to have achieved that. It seems to be like trying to decide whether a lump of rock used to bash a stick into the ground can be called a hammer. None of these are really _musical_ questions - they're linguistic ones


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## Edward Elgar

Andante said:


> As far as the youtube link goes the question here should be, is this music?? I could only listen to the first 25sec to me it sounded like a lathe turning a piece of cast iron without any lubricants.


But it demonstrates that the laptop can be used in a concert situation. If you don't like the sound of a lathe, there are other sounds a laptop can reproduce or synthesize.

And yes, a car engine can be used as an instrument, not a good one given its extreme lack of versatility and range, but an instrument nonetheless (god save the poor composer who decides to write for one!)


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## Yagan Kiely

> But it demonstrates that the laptop can be used in a concert situation.


That isn't an argument, and does not suggest anything. Anything can be used in a 'concert situation'. Hell a guy taking a ***** on stage is music to some people. That doesn't mean it's an instrument or that it is music. It proves absolutely nothing.



> And yes, a car engine can be used as an instrument, not a good one given its extreme lack of versatility and range, but an instrument nonetheless (god save the poor composer who decides to write for one!)


Top Gear put various car engine pitches into a computer to play some piece. Sounded like ***** and you couldn't hear anything. Oh, and just because some people who call them selves artists say that a car is an instrument, doesn't mean it is true. I actually heard today a composer almost admitting that he tries to be different at the detriment of musicality, and the the concept of uniqueness is the most important aspect of modern art.

A computer could be an instrument, calling a car an instrument is just destroying the actual meaning of 'musical instrument' completely. If anything can be a musical instrument (or anything can be music), the meaning (of both are/)is destroyed completely.


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## Herzeleide

Thomas Adès has used paint-cans and newspapers as percussion instruments in his works and they sound fantastic.


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## Yagan Kiely

I know of a guy that canned his faecal matter and sold it for a hansom profit as art. Then there is the guy here in Perth who was cooking his own blood into a sausage and selling it without the buyers knowledge; then how swimming into the ****** of a live female whale it music.

The sausage was also apparently music.


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## Herzeleide

Except Thomas Adès gained a double-starred first in music from Cambridge, was signed up by a publisher before he was even twenty, is a virtuoso pianist, is also a conductor and one of the pieces which uses the aforementioned instruments is 'Asyla', which earnt Adès one of the most prestigious awards for composition in the world - the Grawemeyer. He was the youngest ever person to receive the award. In addition to his supreme musical achievements and astonishing musicianship (I've spoken to instrumentalists who have been conducted by him, and they attest to the precision and sensitivity of his ears) his music is also very original and very competent technically in a traditional sense. Most importantly, it sounds fantastic.

Please stop talking about things about which you patently know nothing. Paint-cans and newspapers are no less valid percussion instruments than maracas, anvils and tambourines etc.


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## Edward Elgar

Yagan Kiely said:


> calling a car an instrument is just destroying the actual meaning of 'musical instrument' completely.







Who decided the anvil should be used as an instrument?! Surely it is a practical apparatus (much like an automobile) and should be segregated from musical affairs! Damn that experimental Verdi!


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## Gorm Less

Yagan Kiely said:


> ...Then there is the guy here in Perth who was cooking his own blood into a sausage and selling it without the buyers knowledge; then how swimming into the ****** of a live female whale it music.
> 
> The sausage was also apparently music.


Here in the UK we had a spate of that kind of thing in the 1970's. It was on the verge of catching on big time when Greenpeace and animal rights activities put paid to it. As you might imagine this ban sure left a gaping gap in the classical music market. I think that's what may have explained the subsequent growth in "minimalism".


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## Herzeleide

Edward Elgar said:


> Who decided the anvil should be used as an instrument?! Surely it is a practical apparatus (much like an automobile) and should be segregated from musical affairs! Damn that experimental Verdi!


And, of course, they sound positively _terrible_ in Wagner's Ring.


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## Guest

Yagan Kiely said:


> Oh, and in relation to that youtube clip I stress my point again: I will not consider it an instrument until someone uses like one. i.e. they play music on it.


OK, I'll reiterate my point then, that this thread is about whether the laptop is an instrument or not, not if it plays music you like or not.

As for "that youtube clip" not being music, well, I'd be interested to know who designated Mr. Kiely as the one who gets to decide what's music and what's not. And it's a very good thing that Yagan's ideas have no real, tangible bearing on the matter! Wow. There's a ton of music that suddenly would cease to be music any more. Can't have _that_!! "A lathe turning a piece of cast iron without any lubricants," in Andante's fine phrase, is a beautiful noise says I.


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## Yagan Kiely

> OK, I'll reiterate my point then, that this thread is about whether the laptop is an instrument or not, not if it plays music you like or not.


Do you consider a jar of peanut butter/paste a musical instrument?

Ahh, I love you completely uncalled for ad hominem! Keep it up! Great argument.


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## Guest

some guy said:


> As for "that youtube clip" not being music, well, I'd be interested to know who designated Mr. Kiely as the one who gets to decide what's music and what's not. And it's a very good thing that Yagan's ideas have no real, tangible bearing on the matter! Wow. There's a ton of music that suddenly would cease to be music any more. Can't have _that_!! "A lathe turning a piece of cast iron without any lubricants," in Andante's fine phrase, is a beautiful noise says I.


So Yagans ideas have no bearing on the matter, do yours? I would suggest that if you enjoy the sound of tortured metal, then thank the good Lord that you are in a minority. *The Emperors New Clothes indeed*


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## JTech82

No, a laptop is not an instrument. Why? Because it's a freaking computer that's why!


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## Guest

JTech82 said:


> No, a laptop is not an instrument. Why? Because it's a freaking computer that's why!


Well said Sir, but I am afraid it will be way over the heads of the Mods


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## jhar26

Well, it produces sounds that are ordered in a certain way to form a compostition - or be part of a composition, so it qualifies as a musical instrument. Whether we like that instrument or the compostitions that result from it is a different matter.


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## Edward Elgar

Andante said:


> Well said Sir, but I am afraid it will be way over the heads of the Mods


Not to mention the vast majority of our population who listen to pop/hiphop/drum&bass/euphoric dance. All the sounds for pop n other popular musiks are computer generated/synthesized, just remember that when you're bopping to the strains of Darude or Dizzy Rascal!

Classical artists or creators of art music simply try to take the techniques used in popular culture and turn them into something meaningful. Some is good, some crap, but I know I like a lot of laptop music and I think many could benefit from hearing some of the good stuff.


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## Yagan Kiely

> Well, it produces sounds that are ordered in a certain way to form a compostition - or be part of a composition, so it qualifies as a musical instrument. Whether we like that instrument or the compostitions that result from it is a different matter.


Considering the already destroyed meaning of 'composition' -- when 'peeing on the train tracks to stop the train' (that is the score BTW) is 'music' and a 'composition', the meaning of 'composition' has henseforth been destroyed -- by oh so unique modern composers, and considering anything in the physical world can be 'ordered' anything in the physical world is an instrument. What this means, is that the term 'musical instrument' has no meaning what so ever, at all, zero.



> Not to mention the vast majority of our population who listen to pop/hiphop/drum&bass/euphoric dance. All the sounds for pop n other popular musiks are computer generated/synthesized, just remember that when you're bopping to the strains of Darude or Dizzy Rascal!


That's because the corporations who make the music want to save money. Cheaper paying some tech/music guy who knows Garage Band than a bunch of actually good mucisians.


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## Herzeleide

Yagan Kiely said:


> Do you consider a jar of peanut butter/paste a musical instrument?


It has potential use as a percussion instrument.


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## Yagan Kiely

What about a bit of cotton? What of a tree? What of a Credit card? What of carpet? Hair? Saliva?

Anything CAN be organised, and by current definitions in this thread, everything in the physical world is an instrument without exception... period.

Now, that means there is no meaning in 'music instrument', at all. Which means, the term is useless and we are destroying it.


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## Guest

I'm wondering how one can get from


Yagan Kiely said:


> everything in the physical world is an instrument without exception


 which sounds OK to me, to


Yagan Kiely said:


> that means there is no meaning in 'music instrument', at all.


 It merely means that nothing cannot be used as a 'music instrument', that's all.



Yagan Kiely said:


> Which means, the term is useless and we are destroying it.


I see. We're destroying a useless term. That's a good thing, right?


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## Guest

*some guy * It makes sense to me, what confuses you?? if you are confused and not just argumentative


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## Yagan Kiely

> We're destroying a useless term. That's a good thing, right?


It wasn't useless, say in Mozart's life. It has no meaning now that we have abused it beyond recognition. You know that, and you also know you are arguing for no reason.



> It merely means that nothing cannot be used as a 'music instrument', that's all.


When everything is a musical instrument, the term 'musical instrument' has no meaning. Maybe read about language more.


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## Gorm Less

Yagan Kiely said:


> When everything is a musical instrument, the term 'musical instrument' has no meaning. Maybe read about language more.


Perhaps more to the point, when virtually any old noise is considered by some to be "music" it is not surprising that they consider any old device capable of making a noise to be a "musical instrument".


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## Guest

Yagan Kiely said:


> It wasn't useless, say in Mozart's life. It has no meaning now that we have abused it beyond recognition. You know that, and you also know you are arguing for no reason.


I do, do I? How is it that you have been given to know what I know or do not know?



Yagan Kiely said:


> When everything is a musical instrument, the term 'musical instrument' has no meaning. Maybe read about language more.


Maybe try some argument. This is a mere repetition of your last unargued assertion. Explain how everything means the same thing as nothing.

jhar26 still stands as having made the most sensible post to this thread.


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## Guest

Andante,

Yagan said, "the term is useless and we are destroying it." See the order there? First the term is useless, and _then_ we are destroying it. Destroying a useless term would be a good thing, eh?

You see? I was just giving Yagan a gentle nudge to pay attention to his words. Everyone, pay attention to your words.! So many contributors to this thread have gotten so caught up in bludgeoning, they've forgotten what Elgar asked for in the first place, which was simply to know whether we think the laptop is a musical instrument or not.

So far on this thread, the nots have it, but so what? Perhaps Elgar realizes now that this was possibly the wrong group to ask this question of. Or that the answers would be predictably predicable. People who don't like contemporary music would of course say nay. People who do would say yay. That is, one's response to this depends utterly on one's attitude towards music. Those with an exclusive attitude are going to be very unwilling to accept things like laptops as instruments. Those with an inclusive attitude are not.

Perhaps we could look outside this thread for a moment, to practicing musicians playing music. Do any of these people use the laptop to create music? To perform music? Yes, they do. Would those people be appalled or at least amused by this whole conversation. Probably yes. There are those on this board who would argue, sorry, I mean assert, that what these people produce is not music. Too bad. Those musicians are going to keep on performing it, and listeners like myself will continue to enjoy it, just as we will continue to enjoy Bach and Brahms and Stravinsky. Because ultimately, it all comes down to enjoyment. And if I enjoy Bach and Brahms _and_ eRikm, then there's a possibility that eRikm is pretty good, eh? Whether or not you or Gorm or Yagan think so.

Just a possibility.


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## Yagan Kiely

> I was just giving Yagan a gentle nudge to pay attention to his words.


Why? Everyone knew what I was saying.


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## Gorm Less

some guy said:


> Everyone, pay attention to your words.! So many contributors to this thread have gotten so caught up in bludgeoning, they've forgotten what Elgar asked for in the first place, which was simply to know whether we think the laptop is a musical instrument or not.


The disagreements seem to derive from the fact that there are two separate issues: (i) whether the primary purpose and actual main use of a laptop is as a musical instrument, and (ii) whether a laptop can be used for this purpose under certain conditions and given a suitably wide definition of "music".

I would answer "no" to the first question, and "yes" to the second. The primary purpose/use of a laptop is not as a musical instrument, any more than the primary purpose/use of a motor car is to carry trash in its trunk to a garbage tip. The fact that a car can, and sometimes is, used to carry trash does not make it a garbage receptacle/collector any more than it makes a car a love-making instrument if some people may occasionally use it for that purpose!


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## Edward Elgar

some guy said:


> Perhaps Elgar realizes now that this was possibly the wrong group to ask this question of.
> 
> Would those people be appalled or at least amused by this whole conversation.


I think this is possibly the best argument on the whole internet! I'm very much amused by people's responses but the fact they conflict with mine is so exiting, I'd hate it if we agreed on everything!



some guy said:


> listeners like myself will continue to enjoy it, just as we will continue to enjoy Bach and Brahms and Stravinsky.


As will I.


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## Herzeleide

Yagan Kiely said:


> What about a bit of cotton? What of a tree? What of a Credit card? What of carpet? Hair? Saliva?
> 
> Anything CAN be organised, and by current definitions in this thread, everything in the physical world is an instrument without exception... period.
> 
> Now, that means there is no meaning in 'music instrument', at all. Which means, the term is useless and we are destroying it.


Anything capable of making a noise has the potential to be (at least) a percussion instrument.

So the definition of musical instrument is something capable of making noise which is used to make music. Other things capable of making a noise but not used to make music are potential musical instruments. So the term is not useless, and it does have a definition.


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## Guest

That's it. That's what we need. More categories. At least one more.

So we have things that were designed to be musical instruments, a category that came _after_ the one of things that weren't designed to be musical instruments but can be used thusly. (Rocks and sticks and conch shells and hollow logs and such-like.)

And we have instruments that weren't designed as such but have come to be used that way enough to be considered ordinary instruments now, like the anvil and the auto brake drum and the turntable.

And finally, we have things like the laptop. As a computer, the laptop can do (be) all sorts of things, depending on what software you have installed. If you have music software installed, sound-generating software, then your laptop is, among other things, a musical instrument, _designed to be such._ (The primary purpose of the software is to turn the multi-functional laptop into a musical instrument.)

(This is my synoptic response to Elgar's on page two of this discussion in which he identifies two categories. Thanks of course to Gorm Less and Herzeleide and Krummhorn and Frasier and Lang and Weston and Elgarian, who have already said everything contained in this synopsis.)


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## Guest

*some guy* You are confused again, most of us enjoy modern [your word] music [but not all modern music] the means of delivery is important to some of us, e.g. Beethoven's P Son #14 in c# min, would not be enjoyable to me if played on the Bag Pipes or Moriori nose flute, but I admit there are those on this forum that would go into raptures and declare it to be the next important leap forward in music, what you have called an exclusive attitude could be just good taste, please don't say that is _*subjective*_, that much is so obvious, but is the opinion of the majority.

You also ask us to *"look outside this thread for a moment, to practicing musicians playing music. Do any of these people use the laptop to create music? To perform music? Yes, they do." *I would say a lot of musicians use the PC as a tool to help with many forms of music "had it been around in my day I would have used it" but it is IMHO a wild stretch of the imagination to try and class it as a musical instrument


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## Guest

Actually Andante, the word I used in the post I think you're referring to was "contemporary."

As to whether most people on this board enjoy contemporary classical music or not, well, judging by the responses to this thread, it's about half and half. And I'm not confused, per se, but I am puzzled by your reference to means of delivery. I've never made that an issue. (Maybe you're confusing me with someone else?) I don't think of the laptop as a means to perform older music, although it could certainly be used to do that, just as the Moonlight could be played on the bagpipes, but as a way to produce new music, music that fits its capacities and capabilities. 

I was also using exclusive and inclusive as descriptors not evaluators. Simply to describe how people could be expected vote on Elgar's question. (And the voting has indeed been, predictably enough, right along those lines, has it not?)

And finally, the wild stretch of the imagination you refer to is no more than simply an observation that music software turns any computer into a musical instrument. Hardly wild, hardly a stretch, though possibly quite imaginative!


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## Yagan Kiely

> it's about half and half.


Since when did what is discussed in this thread divide anything? Electronic instruments are by no means the definition of contemporary music, I can enjoy contemporary music with being bombarded with composer's desperately trying to be different they turn anything into an instrument with absolutely no reasoning behind it.


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## Guest

some guy said:


> Actually Andante, the word I used in the post I think you're referring to was "contemporary."


 I was not quoting you, and 99% of readers will understand the meaning of contemporary [belonging to the present time] and modern [characteristic of present-day art and music] do you have a different meaning if so what is it?? *If not what is the purpose of your remark *??


> And I'm not confused, per se, but I am puzzled by your reference to means of delivery. I've never made that an issue. (Maybe you're confusing me with someone else?)


You see, I did not say you had made it an issue but if you read my post again you should be able to understand my point. 
Judging by your remarks to my posts and others [Yagen] you either deliberately hide behind words or are simply being bloody minded. while it makes things interesting it does tend to get a bit much


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## Edward Elgar

Andante said:


> e.g. Beethoven's P Son #14 in c# min, would not be enjoyable to me if played on the Bag Pipes or Moriori nose flute, but I admit there are those on this forum that would go into raptures and declare it to be the next important leap forward in music,




Beethoven left us instruction as to how he wanted his music to be played and we must play it as such. The goal of a composer is not to violate the intentions of past composers as you seem to be infering here, but to create meaningful art that is representative of it's time.

As for Yagan Kiely's coment about composers desperately trying to be different they turn anything into an instrument with absolutely no reasoning behind it, this has never happened in the history of musicmaking. Composers have enough imagination and talent to compose fresh, original work without desperation. Also, composers always have a reason for infering their various musical events. The reason must come before the decision to include, say, a laptop in a composition.


----------



## Yagan Kiely

> Composers have enough imagination and talent to compose fresh, original work without desperation.


So you are telling me that if someone wanted to write brilliant music in a compeltely unoriginal style in the mid 20th century, or in a modern era, they would become extremely famous? No they wouldn't. The culture of 20th century music doesn't care about the quality of the music, the only important aspect is the piece's concept being original and completely unique. Composers are plagued by the idea of unique because they are forced to. It is desperation to become known and actually make a profession out of their music. Musicality is not the driving force. Same thing with copyright actually - it doesn't promote creativity per se. You seem to be getting the order confused, they compose 'music' which has a completely unique concept because of desperation, they don't compose it 'desperately' they do a very good job at being unique.



> Also, composers always have a reason for inferring their various musical events.


There is no valid reason to invent an instrument when a perfectly good (i.e. sounds virtually the same and/or same attack/decay etc.) equivalent already exists in the accepted and un-contentious options.

Something which combines the two arguments above: Let's say that someone managed to compose music based on Einsteins Quantum Theory; now while this may be a wildly unique concept, it would be difficult to translate that into musicallity, but the concept itself would imidiatly render it a good composition.

Also how do you have good or bad unique music when there is nothing to compare it to? It's as if they are trying to avoid critique. Also how do you critique something which avoids all rules? It may indeed invent the rules, but how can you tell if those rules are bent of broken to the benifit of the music? There is no history and you can't tell.


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## Edward Elgar

Yagan Kiely said:


> So you are telling me that if someone wanted to write brilliant music in a compeltely unoriginal style in the mid 20th century, or in a modern era, they would become extremely famous?


I'm not saying that at all, I'm not sure where you derived this synopsis of my argument from!



Yagan Kiely said:


> The culture of 20th century music doesn't care about the quality of the music,


How on earth can you say this?! Composers care as much today about the quality of their music as Bach did! The quality has not changed, just the style.



Yagan Kiely said:


> There is no valid reason to invent an instrument when a perfectly good (i.e. sounds virtually the same and/or same attack/decay etc.) equivalent already exists in the accepted and un-contentious options.


There are many valid reasons; making this statement highly flawed! Anyway, why would composers want to imitate a violin on the laptop? Because it's cheaper yes, but composers of the laptop don't seek to imitate existing instruments as you appear to believe. From what I've heard their goals are to create new and unexplored soundworlds which I find very exiting.



Yagan Kiely said:


> There is no history and you can't tell.


Not for those who don't research anything and close their ears at anything that doesn't sound like a violin or piano!


----------



## Arnold Schoenberg

*Contemporary Music*

Using a laptop in order to create music is in no way or means desperation. It can create sounds that would take a lot longer to master with existing instruments, plus it has the ability to oscillate waveforms into new and unique sounds. If you were that much of a musician you would recognise that everything has its place in music, even the triangle in an orchestra plays an important role in the whole piece. If you were to take the final product and say 'yes I really enjoyed that' does it ultimately matter how it was produced? A musical instrument, by definition, is any existing matter that can be oscillated (whether that be hitting it, rubbing it, or synthesising it using a computer) in order to create a sound.


----------



## Arnold Schoenberg

*Imitation?*



Yagan Kiely said:


> There is no valid reason to invent an instrument when a perfectly good (i.e. sounds virtually the same and/or same attack/decay etc.) equivalent already exists in the accepted and uncontentious options.


 There is a perfectly valid reason! You are obviously an ignorant musician and I feel somewhat sorry for you, because you are limiting music to what you feel it should be. By saying that computers only 'imitate' instruments that already exist, I am unsure whether you are being dismissive and ignorant to back up your failing argument. Computers can manufacture sounds that we could only dream of making ourselves, taking listeners to a different level, and creating new genres of music. If you are that ignorant that you would totally defy this fact then you are a close-minded fool. Who in their right frame of mind would deliberately outlaw any musical instrument? That totally contradicts the fact that you call yourself a musician!


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## Arnold Schoenberg

marval said:


> To make a laptop play music it surely needs software, which is not already there. So without the software can it play music?


 Without software, the laptop couldn't even boot up, so that's a weak argument against it.


----------



## Arnold Schoenberg

Yagan Kiely said:


> I'm sick of hearing ****** loud and incoherent noise coming from music tech computers and their attached speakers. Until I actually hear some music come out of them they are _NOT_ instruments.


 Either you have heard some purely **** music from laptops, and have a bad experience, or you are just closed-minded and believe that people who orchestrate computers are not real musicians. It takes a lot of skill to produce synthetic sounds from a laptop, and I would really like to see you try. If you are going to bash a musical instrument so much, you have to get to know it, and try composing music with it. Without enough knowledge, you are trying to support a meaningless argument.


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## JTech82

Arnold Schoenberg said:


> Either you have heard some purely **** music from laptops, and have a bad experience, or you are just closed-minded and believe that people who orchestrate computers are not real musicians. It takes a lot of skill to produce synthetic sounds from a laptop, and I would really like to see you try. If you are going to bash a musical instrument so much, you have to get to know it, and try composing music with it. Without enough knowledge, you are trying to support a meaningless argument.


Hey Schoenberg, by the way I HATE your music, a laptop isn't an instrument. Get real. Now go and compose some more crappy music.

P.S. Tell Berg and Webern that I also HATE their music will ya? Thanks a lot.


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## Guest

Edward Elgar said:


> Beethoven left us instruction as to how he wanted his music to be played and we must play it as such.


any musical score is open to interpretation, music notation is only a guide,


> The goal of a composer is not to violate the intentions of past composers as you seem to be infering here, but to create meaningful art that is representative of it's time.


really? I do not understand what you are getting at?[/quote]



> As for Yagan Kiely's coment about composers desperately trying to be different they turn anything into an instrument with absolutely no reasoning behind it, this has never happened in the history of musicmaking.


to me this really would revolve around you definition of reasoning,
[/quote]


> Composers have enough imagination and talent to compose fresh, original work without desperation. Also, composers always have a reason for infering their various musical events. The reason must come before the decision to include, say, a laptop in a composition.


I agree that *some *do but I am puzzled by the inclusion of the word "inferring" ??? and once again we have been side tracked into going off topic, so I will repeat what I think, and a lot of other posters seem to think along simular lines which is: A musical instrument is that which has been designed specifically for that purpose, I suppose that a couple of posters will now be googling "drum/tom-tom" *sigh*


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## Herzeleide

JTech82 said:


> Hey Schoenberg, by the way I HATE your music, a laptop isn't an instrument. Get real. Now go and compose some more crappy music.
> 
> P.S. Tell Berg and Webern that I also HATE their music will ya? Thanks a lot.


Haven't heard this before.


----------



## Edward Elgar

Andante said:


> any musical score is open to interpretation, music notation is only a guide,
> 
> really? I do not understand what you are getting at?


Oh yes, music notation is only a guide, but Kiely was making a stab at contemporary composers saying that they would be fine with altering the instrumentation of a Beethoven composition which I'm not sure Beethoven would want. Because of Beethoven's instructions, no serious musician would play a piano sonata on an instrument other than the piano. At least read the arguments so we can try to avoid unnecessary thread deviations.

This links with the other comment I made that you have quoted and seem to have difficulty understanding. Again, I was responding to Kiely's comments and trying to assure him that contemporary composers have music's best interests at heart by showing the same amount of intellectual and artistic commitment as Haydn or Mozart.



Andante said:


> A musical instrument is that which has been designed specifically for that purpose


So Verdi and Wagner are wrong to use anvils in their works? Please don't tell me you think so!


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## Guest

I will try not be tempted to stray again but some comments are ill informed.



Edward Elgar said:


> So Verdi and Wagner are wrong to use anvils in their works? Please don't tell me you think so!


Again I can only guess at you meaning. You surly are not claiming that an Anvil is a musical instrument ? of course it isn't, any more than is a toilet roll,


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## Edward Elgar

I am claiming that an anvil is an instrument! As is a toilet roll if used to create a sound!


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## Guest

I think you are taking the psis,


----------



## Arnold Schoenberg

Andante said:


> I think you are taking the ****,


He's not taking the ****, he is rightly stating what music is! You are just too damn close minded to realise that a toilet roll is considered, by definition, a musical instrument, as is a laptop! And for whoever said that a laptop only _plays_ sound, like a radio, you do not know how wrong you are! You do _not_ twist the knobs on a radio until the tune you want comes out, you flick between stations to see what existing composed tunes are on. A laptop has the power to edit the sound, and compose, and create new sounds, a radio doesn't!


----------



## Arnold Schoenberg

JTech82 said:


> A laptop isn't an instrument.


Why isn't it, what is _your_ definition of a musical instrument then, because you are obviously the rightful, unquestioned dictator of what is!? If a violin makes a sound, it's a musical instrument, you can orchestrate _what_ sound you get out of it. A laptop does _exactly_ the same thing!


----------



## Edward Elgar

Andante said:


> I think you are taking the psis,


You're going to get this thread blocked if you use this language to pedal your extreme traditionalism. I hope this is not your intention.

If I am taking the ****, then all the composers since the dawn of mankind take the **** by writing for instruments that havn't been checked by Führer Andante for approval!


----------



## Guest

*Schoenberg*, you have altered the spelling on my post, WHY??? be more careful in the future

*Elgar* You also changed the spelling, I do hope this is not catching, I purposely used the Internet friendly version of the word if this upsets you I could make a suggestion but that would be bordering on the uncouth, if you do not like the responses you get from your original question why bother posting it at all? sticks and stones old chap,

I just realised, what are you doing awake at this time of the day??


----------



## Guest

Andante said:


> if you do not like the responses you get from your original question why bother posting it at all?


So people can make rude and unfriendly personal remarks, and that's OK so long as they hide behind transparent misspellings like ***** and psis?

That's cpar!

Well, now that we've got the potty mouth all taken care of, how about we talk about music for a change? Now there's an idea! Talk about music on a music discussion forum!!

I told someone this morning about this thread, and he couldn't imagine what kind of forum would contain people on it who would argue that the laptop is not a musical instrument. When I told him, he laughed and said "Oh, that explains it, then."

Wow, is that the kind of reputation we want for Talk Classical?

Wait wait. I'm still not talking about music. OK, if I look carefully on my CDs, I often see three words that almost always mean "good listening ahead"--turntables, laptops, and objects. One of the paths music has taken since around 1920 or so (almost 90 years ago--how many posters here are even close to 90?) is towards using any old thing to make noise with. Now, not everyone will approve of this path. But then, I don't approve of Bax or Rubbra or Higdon* or Greenberg, but I also don't go around psising people off who do like them by haunting neo-romantic threads and spouting imprecations on the cpar these people write. Let the people who enjoy it enjoy it in peace, I say.

There's a lot of really fine music out there to listen to. Some of it you might not like at all right now. But "oh, well." Give your ears a chance, there's only enjoyment ahead for you. Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I'll listen to my CD of GOL, a laptop quartet from Paris. You can find some clips at http://www.mimaroglumusicsales.com/artists/gol.html

*I do approve of Jennifer the person, you understand. She's very nice.


----------



## Yagan Kiely

Hey Schoenberg, Elgar: If you actually bother to read what I say and not take it out of context or misinterpret or misrepresent me, I'll bother getting back to you.

Your arguments are laughably on subjects I never touched in my argument. Please try again.


----------



## JTech82

Herzeleide said:


> Haven't heard this before.


Yeah and you're likely to hear it again too, so get used to it.


----------



## Guest

[*QUOTE=some guy;*39907]So people can make rude and unfriendly personal remarks, and that's OK so long as they hide behind transparent misspellings like ***** and psis?

Well, now that we've got the potty mouth all taken care of, how about we talk about music for a change? Now there's an idea! Talk about music on a music discussion forum!!

I told someone this morning about this thread, and he couldn't imagine what kind of forum would contain people on it who would argue that the laptop is not a musical instrument. When I told him, he laughed and said "Oh, that explains it, then."

_Hide behind something transparent_, *Confusion again ?*

I did not think ***** was miss er spelled 

What is the potty mouth??

This someone you were talking to seems to hold the same values as some guy what a coincidence


----------



## Guest

To be sure. ***** is a variant spelling of ****, not an internet subterfuge.

Well I'll be dmaned. I shudda known that. (I'll go listen to a Rubbra symphony now in penance.)


----------



## Guest

You don't have to suffer that some guy, I would not wish it on anyone, Try some decent stuff,


----------



## Arnold Schoenberg

Yagan Kiely said:


> If you actually bother to read what I say and not take it out of context or misinterpret or misrepresent me, I'll bother getting back to you.


Either you need to explain what you mean more or just don't bother posting on here at all. I have never taken you out of context, you are just making accusations and remarks that I do not agree with, is that not the *purpose* of this website in the first place? Thought so...


----------



## Daniel

End of this sub-debate!


----------



## Edward Elgar

Yagan Kiely said:


> Hey Schoenberg, Elgar: If you actually bother to read what I say and not take it out of context or misinterpret or misrepresent me, I'll bother getting back to you.
> 
> Your arguments are laughably on subjects I never touched in my argument. Please try again.


When have we ever done that?

Also, if we make comments about a subject that you have not touched upon then that is obviously not a counter-argument. It's an invitation for you to express your views about the subject we raise, different or otherwise.

Come on guys, let's not have this thread banned, the "NO"s are in the lead at the moment. Let's stick to debate on the laptop.

For the majority who think the laptop isn't an instrument, how do you explain it's frequent use in the popular music insustry?


----------



## Yagan Kiely

> Either you need to explain what you mean more or just don't bother posting on here at all. I have never taken you out of context, you are just making accusations and remarks that I do not agree with, is that not the *purpose* of this website in the first place? Thought so...


You misinterpreted me once, and the rest of your argument were ad hominems. It seems it is against forum rules for me to point out what and how you misrepresented me, so you are just going to have to guess.

You quoted me out of context, and misrepresented what I said. I never said that composers write desperately or laptops are desperation. That would be a lie to imply that I did, which you have on frequent occasions. Never said that, so go back and read all my posts so that you can actually understand what I said. Before you understand, we can;t get back on topic.



> For the majority who think the laptop isn't an instrument, how do you explain it's frequent use in the popular music insustry?


I already have. Try reading.

Oh and to the mods, did you know that you can;t discuss a topic in depth without making small diversions to a related topic to clarify something? Amazing huh? Maybe you should take that into your reasoning. Oh, and when someone misrepresents you, I didn't defending myself was not allowed. But it's good to see that you let his comment up. Great job! Keep up the fake moderating.


----------



## Edward Elgar

Yagan Kiely said:


> I already have. Try reading.


Your comment that "producers want to save money" does not justify your argument. In fact it almost justifies the use of the laptop as an instrument! Keep it up, you just might make it to being an open-minded individual!

Can I get a response from others as to why the popular music industry would use the laptop as an instrument on such a regular basis? Particularly those who voted "NO".


----------



## Yagan Kiely

> Keep it up, you just might make it to being an open-minded individual!


Nice fallacy! Did you know, that, in arguments you are meant to avoid fallacies? Not rely on them? Just a quick tip okay?



> Your comment that "producers want to save money" does not justify your argument. In fact it almost justifies the use of the laptop as an instrument!


Sorry, I forgot money was more important than musicality. Again YOU are backing up me saying that composers are so desperate to 'stick out' (no publicity is bad publicity) and make money that they sacrifice quality for concept, the music for uniqueness.

There are obviously other reasons, pop music is such a genre that you don't really appreciate the minute detail (for one mostly it isn't there), but the emotion and the power of the music is what is immediately obvious to you.


----------



## Herzeleide

JTech82 said:


> Yeah and you're likely to hear it again too, so get used to it.


What's the appeal of ramming down our throats your musical bugaboos when it's not germane to the thread?


----------



## Edward Elgar

Yagan Kiely said:


> Sorry, I forgot money was more important than musicality. Again YOU are backing up me saying that composers are so desperate to 'stick out' (no publicity is bad publicity) and make money that they sacrifice quality for concept, the music for uniqueness.


This is something you have made up in your head. I was asking you about what you meant when you gave the comment you told me to read about music producers trying to save money by using the laptop as an instrument. From this you have made me out to be someone who doesn't give a damn about music quality! You are so eager to hand out ad hominems and yet some of your posts are quite baffling!



Yagan Kiely said:


> There are obviously other reasons, pop music is such a genre that you don't really appreciate the minute detail (for one mostly it isn't there), but the emotion and the power of the music is what is immediately obvious to you.


Here you imply that the laptop can be used to create immediate and obvious emotional power when used as an instrument. Does this mean you see the laptop as an instrument now?


----------



## Arnold Schoenberg

Yagan Kiely said:


> Pop music is such a genre that you don't really appreciate the minute detail (for one mostly it isn't there), but the emotion and the power of the music is what is immediately obvious to you.


What difference does it make then that it is made on a laptop? Does the _soul_ suddenly get destroyed?!


----------



## Gorm Less

some guy said:


> ...
> 
> I told someone this morning about this thread, and he couldn't imagine what kind of forum would contain people on it who would argue that the laptop is not a musical instrument. When I told him, he laughed and said "Oh, that explains it, then."
> 
> Wow, is that the kind of reputation we want for Talk Classical?


Not a very strong argument is it? You can't persuade a majority of posters here of your viewpoint so you tell a friend who then rubbishes the forum and you then come back and tell us that if we don't want a bad reputation we should change our minds and agree with him, one of your faceless friends. Bizarre to say the least.


----------



## Guest

Gorm,

It's no sort of argument at all. It's an anecdote. 

The faceless friend (actually it was my second son, who plays laptop, and who has a very nice face, even if it does look a bit like mine) did no sort of trashing at all. He merely observed that its being a classical forum explained how people could be seriously maintaining that laptops are not musical instruments. Nowhere else would that happen. 

And in fact, there are other classical forums where very few people would claim that it's not. That is just to say that this classical forum is not the only one. The posters to this thread are not the only posters in the world.

I presented the anecdote principally to illustrate that there's more going on in the world, more opinions about things, more opinions favorable to the musics some of the posters just cannot accept, than many of those posters seem able to acknowledge. Bizarre? No, just a little look outside. If you don't want to look outside, too bad. You lose!

Some


----------



## Guest

some guy said:


> Gorm,
> 
> It's no sort of argument at all. It's an anecdote.
> 
> .
> 
> And in fact, there are other classical forums where very few people would claim that it's not. That is just to say that this classical forum is not the only one. The posters to this thread are not the only posters in the world.


Give us a link to this forum thread


----------



## Yagan Kiely

> This is something you have made up in your head. I was asking you about what you meant when you gave the comment you told me to read about music producers trying to save money by using the laptop as an instrument. From this you have made me out to be someone who doesn't give a damn about music quality! You are so eager to hand out ad hominems and yet some of your posts are quite baffling!


Nice misrepresentation. Now. I haven't 'handed out ad hominems', Scheonberg has: not me. Also, where is that article?


----------



## Arnold Schoenberg

Yagan Kiely said:


> I haven't 'handed out ad hominems', Scheonberg has.


Excuse me but when have I handed out ad hominems? Which of my arguments have...

[1] Resorted to a charecter attack instead of backing up my claims with valid reasons? I think you will find that _all_ of my claims are backed up with valid reasons. When I did resort to charecter attack, it was becuase you were annoying me, not becuase I wanted to back up any statement!

Find out what words mean before you accuse me of them!


----------



## Yagan Kiely

> Find out what words mean before you accuse me of them!


Why do you add this? Does it make you feel smart or something? What's the point? Can't you control your emotions for a debate? Someone who is that emotion can't think straight and with an unbiased mind. If you clear your mind of the emotion you can think clearer. Think Vulcan!



> You are obviously an ignorant musician and I feel somewhat sorry for you, because you are limiting music to what you feel it should be.


Ad hominem


> By saying that computers only 'imitate' instruments that already exist, I am unsure whether you are being dismissive and ignorant to back up your failing argument.


Ad hominem


> Computers can manufacture sounds that we could only dream of making ourselves, taking listeners to a different level, and creating new genres of music.


Not an ad hominem


> If you are that ignorant that you would totally defy this fact then you are a close-minded fool.


Ad hominem

pquote]Who in their right frame of mind would deliberately outlaw any musical instrument? That totally contradicts the fact that you call yourself a musician![/quote]Ad hominem

All bar one sentence in that paragraph is an ad hominem fallacy. And apart from that one sentence, you didn't once even attempt to back up anything with a reason at all.

Not to mention, you have failed to back your arguments up with any reasons, let alone valid ones, for as long as I've seen you (if memory serves, maybe once or twice).


----------



## Edward Elgar

Looks like you're handing out ad hominem yellow cards to Mr Schoenberg! His reasoning comes from your responses or have you been so busy trying to spot ad hominems that you forgot that this is a debate?

Why can't you keep to the matter at hand and answer my question? You have implied in a previous post that the laptop can be used to create immediate and obvious emotional power when used as an instrument. Does this mean you see the laptop as an instrument now?


----------



## Guest

Edward Elgar said:


> Music Psychology and Music Theory: Problems and Prospects Music Psychology and Music Theory: Problems and Prospects Carol L. Krumhansl Music Theory Spectrum, Vol. 17, No. 1 (Spring, 1995), pp. 53-80
> 
> The Evolution of Twelve-Note Music The Evolution of Twelve-Note Music Oliver Neighbour Proceedings of the Royal Musical Association, 81st Sess., (1954 - 1955), pp. 49-61
> 
> Review: Are There Two Tonal Practices in Nineteenth-Century Music? Review: Are There Two Tonal Practices in Nineteenth-Century Music? Robert P. Morgan Reviewed work(s): The Second Practice of Nineteeth-Century Tonality by William Kinderman; Harald Krebs Journal of Music Theory, Vol. 43, No. 1 (Spring, 1999), pp. 135-163
> 
> I also checked with my analysis tutor, Stephen Jan, who has written books on this matter and he has clarified that even though there is a physical basis for the dominant/tonic relationship, the recognition of this is learned through exposure to scales and tonal music.


*That's one amazing post Ed what exactly is it referring to*


----------



## Edward Elgar

Kiely was pushing me for an article on this thread in relation to another thread which led to me to accidentally post them on this thread.


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## Arnold Schoenberg

Finally _someone_ directs this debate back to where it _should_ be!


----------



## Guest

Edward Elgar said:


> Kiely was pushing me for an article on this thread in relation to another thread which led to me to accidentally post them on this thread.


Aha, yep, makes sense.


----------



## Daniel

Stop accusing other members! Anyone! Otherwise we will have to close this thread...

On topic...


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## Edward Elgar

Without insulting anyone, posting ad hominems or fallacies, I am interested to know how those who voted "NO" explain the use of the laptop in pop. I calmly ask for posts illustrating your opinions.

To be honest, and with the greatest of respect, I personally think the moderators have been quite lenient. Although I thank them for this, it's clear that if people argue in such an aggressive manner that their valuable comments are overshadowed, this does not equate to good, healthy discussions.


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## Guest

Well I am tired and bored by this thread, it has become farcical and to Quote *JTech82* *"No, a laptop is not an instrument. Why? Because it's a freaking computer that's why!"*. Now if this is not acceptable to some "so be it" I am unsubscribing from this thread so the best of luck to those wishing to keep banging their heads against a wall


----------



## Guest

Hmmm, maybe we should ask then "What is a freaking computer?"

Why, it's a machine that can be made to do all sorts of things, including music.

Why is that so _hard_ to accept?

(Not that it's being designed, via its software, to make music is a necessary criteria for our argument. After all, one COULD say that an auto brake drum is not a musical instrument, why? because it's a freaking car part!, but I doubt that symphony orchestras would then rush to purge their percussion sections of this useful and common part of the ensemble, with a unique and distinctive sound. Nor that anyone would want to stop performing _Il trovatore_ because it has a freaking blacksmith tool in it. Just so, all the laptop artists (pop _and_ classical) are not going to suddenly stop playing music with their laptops just because some people at Talk Classical have voted "No" on this question! Just sayin'.)


----------



## jhar26

some guy said:


> Hmmm, maybe we should ask then "What is a freaking computer?"
> 
> Why, it's a machine that can be made to do all sorts of things, including music.
> 
> Why is that so _hard_ to accept?
> 
> (Not that it's being designed, via its software, to make music is a necessary criteria for our argument. After all, one COULD say that an auto brake drum is not a musical instrument, why? because it's a freaking car part!, but I doubt that symphony orchestras would then rush to purge their percussion sections of this useful and common part of the ensemble, with a unique and distinctive sound. Nor that anyone would want to stop performing _Il trovatore_ because it has a freaking blacksmith tool in it. Just so, all the laptop artists (pop _and_ classical) are not going to suddenly stop playing music with their laptops just because some people at Talk Classical have voted "No" on this question! Just sayin'.)


I think that people regard this poll more as a referendum about whether they like the laptop as a musical instrument as opposed to whether it qualifies as one.

All in my modest opinion of course. I don't want the next poster to bite my nose off.


----------



## Elgarian

> I think that people regard this poll more as a referendum about whether they like the laptop as a musical instrument as opposed to whether it qualifies as one.


Yes, that does seem to be how many people have interpreted the question.



> All in my modest opinion of course. I don't want the next poster to bite my nose off.


I'm the next poster, so your nose is safe.

It occurs to me that there are more traditional grey areas where the same kind of argument might rage, and thereby take some heat off the poor old laptop. What is the status of the 'comb and paper', for instance? Or spoons? Or playing a tune on a set of wineglasses, all filled with different levels of water? What of the human voice (now _there's_ a question to get the wagons rolling)?

It seems to me that they become musical instruments at the moment we decide to use them as musical instruments (just like Andante's famous driftwood xylophone). Like any musical instruments, they can make dreadful noises under certain conditions - so the issue of whether we 'like' the music they produce doesn't seem to be part of the question. (I don't like the sound of solo harpsicord, but I accept that it's a musical instrument.) The question, surely, centres around _intentionality_; whether the laptop is a good or bad instrument is a quite separate matter.


----------



## Edward Elgar

jhar26 said:


> I think that people regard this poll more as a referendum about whether they like the laptop as a musical instrument as opposed to whether it qualifies as one.
> 
> All in my modest opinion of course. I don't want the next poster to bite my nose off.


I think someone should have started the thread; "do you like the use of the laptop as a musical instrument" lol!

Saying this, I think it healthy sometimes to put aside our preferences with a willingness to accept. This is what I did with classical/art music laptop performance, and I've gone from having an indifference towards the medium to having found spiritual (or at least profound) meaning in it.


----------



## Herzeleide

Scientifically, laptops would be considered an Electrophone, whereas anything which one strikes to make a sound would be classed an Idiophone.


----------



## Guest

Yeah, I'd like to strike a few idiophones, myself, from time to time.


----------



## Herzeleide

some guy said:


> Yeah, I'd like to strike a few idiophones, myself, from time to time.




My definition was weak. Here's the Grove's far superior one:

'General term for musical instruments that produce their sound by setting up vibrations in the substance of the instrument itself... Idiophones are subdivided into those which are struck, scraped, plucked, made to sound by friction or blown. The sound may be produced by the direct or the indirect action of the player. Each category is further subdivided according to the more detailed characteristics of an instrument.'

Howard Mayer Brown and Frances Palmer. "Idiophone." Grove Music Online. Oxford Music Online. 8 Mar. 2009 <http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/subscriber/article/grove/music/50024>


----------



## nickgray

Somebody probably have said it, but... To say laptop is a musical instrument is kinda like saying that a piece of wood is a musical instrument. Obviously, you can install some daw, plug a VSTi and grab any kind of midi controller. Same thing with wood - you can make a guitar out of it, violin, viola, cello...


----------



## maestro267

Krummhorn said:


> If just playing audio cd's on one, then my answer would be No.


What if you're playing a CD as part of a performance of a piece of music? I'm pretty sure John Cage did a piece that involves a pre-recorded performance of Dvorak's 'New World' Symphony, with parts of the symphony fading in and out between Cage's own music.


----------



## jcsd

No, but I do sort of consider software synths, VSTis etc, to be insturments to some extent. But there not the same as a real instrument which is why I hesitate.


----------



## haydnguy

My take is that it is not. It's a general purpose computer.


----------



## Mirror Image

I voted no only because I don't really consider it a "real" instrument. It can be used to trigger sounds like a keyboard, but it can't be played like a piano, guitar, or oboe, so that's why I voted no.


----------



## Scott Good

Elgarian said:


> It seems to me that they become musical instruments at the moment we decide to use them as musical instruments.


That, my friends, is the bottom line.

End of story.

Peace out.


----------



## Cortision

I feel that electronic instruments in general have a disadvantage in that the connection between the thoughts and emotions of the musician and the sound produced by the instrument is not as direct. Human beings are wired to express themselves physically, whether through music or otherwise. Pressing buttons just doesn't quite do it for me. I prefer a piano over a keyboard for this reason. 

I have heard digital pianos that people tell me have a wonderful piano sound, and I just don't get it. To me it sounds like a cheap imitation. Maybe I am missing something. I won't deny that digital pianos and keyboards have their place, and can be very useful. But please, when it comes to music performed for the sake of being music, give me a (real) piano.

Now onto the subject of this thread; laptops. I'm sure a talented person could get all sorts of funky sounds out of one, but does this make it an instrument? I have strummed tennis rackets, plucked rubber bands, and tapped softdrink bottles off different volumes, all of which produced interesting sounds (of doubtful musical value, I'll admit). These would not normally be classed as instruments by most people, because they were not made for the purpose of making music. it can reproduce music and imitate instruments, but it remains a multi-purpose tool only (and a good tool for composition). Now I'm sure it has its place in musical performance, but for my taste, for real music, give me real intruments.


----------



## 151

There is no debate here, surely.


----------



## Earthling

I voted yes-- and I certainly don't see why not. If someone goes to a concert of Aphex Twin or Ryoji Ikeda to hear him perform his music, certainly (and they are many other very talented musicians who do this sort of thing),


----------



## Toccata

Earthling said:


> I voted yes-- and I certainly don't see why not. If someone goes to a concert of Aphex Twin or Ryoji Ikeda to hear him perform his music, certainly (and they are many other very talented musicians who do this sort of thing),


Presumably if your laptop was stolen whilst, say on holiday, you would go into a police station and report that you had lost your musical instrument? How about if you lost your wallet? I guess you would probably say you lost your car. Or maybe when you visit a doctor because of a pain in the elbow, you might say you have a pain in the **** (*** for Americans)?


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Coming to the discussion as a fan of 'Kraftwerk:"


Opal said:


> Presumably if your laptop was stolen whilst, say on holiday, you would go into a police station and report that you had lost your musical instrument? How about if you lost your wallet? I guess you would probably say you lost your car.


A laptop is a multi-functional device- and one of its functions is the ability to make pitched musical sounds.

If one's wallet was also a multi-functional device that also had personal transport as one of its abilities, the analogy would be apt...


----------



## Toccata

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Coming to the discussion as a fan of 'Kraftwerk:"A laptop is a multi-functional device- and one of its functions is the ability to make pitched musical sounds.
> 
> If one's wallet was also a multi-functional device that also had personal transport as one of its abilities, the analogy would be apt...


If you read the question asked in this thread it is: _"Do you consider a laptop to be a musical instrument?"_

The question is not: _"Do you consider a laptop to be a multi-functional device with one of its potential functions being the ability to make pitched musical sound"_

If the latter was the question, as you appear to believe, many if not all of us could probably sign up and agree that it is such a device. But the question was not asked that way, probably deliberately so, purely to create a never-ending thread that this has so successfully become.

As it is, the question actually asked would not appear to allow such a wide interpretation as you appear to favour. Most normal people would argue that a laptop is not a musical instrument.

As further evidence, I have never seen one for sale in a music instrument shop. Perhaps you have? Do tell us where. If you haven't, have you ever thought about going in and having it out with the store manager? I'd like to see you, or anyone else, try. Moderator or not, you'd get sent off with a flee in your ear if you argued too much.


----------



## Earthling

The Princeton Laptop Orchestra 


Listed under "musical instruments" on Amazon: Laptop stands, more here, also keyboard controllers for laptops

Oh, and long before laptops: Milton Babbitt.

And much more.

Whether one likes such music or not is another story, but so what?


----------



## Earthling

Opal said:


> Presumably if your laptop was stolen whilst, say on holiday, you would go into a police station and report that you had lost your musical instrument?


If it was Richard D. James, he probably would.


----------



## Serge

*Do you consider the laptop to be a musical instrument?*

No, but I think it makes a pretty good sex toy.


----------



## DreamInSong

Well, almost anything can be used as a percussion instrument


----------



## leevshan

of course not.


----------



## AStarrii

agreed completely


----------



## Ravellian

Sure it can. Just close it and start drumming on its backside.


----------



## Lukecash12

It's an object, and you can manipulate it to make sound, so it can be instrumental in making music. So yes, it definitely is an instrument.

Definition of instrument:



> # a device that requires skill for proper use
> # the means whereby some act is accomplished; "my greed was the instrument of my destruction"; "science has given us new tools to fight disease"
> # a person used by another to gain an end
> # equip with instruments for measuring, recording, or controlling
> # legal document: (law) a document that states some contractual relationship or grants some right
> # write an instrumental score for
> # instrumental role: the semantic role of the entity (usually inanimate) that the agent uses to perform an action or start a process
> # address a legal document to
> # *musical instrument: any of various devices or contrivances that can be used to produce musical tones or sounds*


----------



## dmg

Anything used to create sounds to be strategically inserted into a temporal setting is a musical instrument. If I put my hand in my armpit to make flatulent sounds to a rhythm imitating a known popular folk tune, my hand / armpit combo is a musical instrument.

Also, to Hades with that spammer. I want to respond to this topic, so I am going to respond to this topic.


----------



## wingracer

I just voted yes. I would not have done that a week ago. So why the change of heart?

Well, I just saw an electronic band (their name escapes me, I'll have to go look it up) that blew me away. While it was "club music", it wasn't the normal, repetitive beats and samples. It was truly brilliant and interesting music performed by four guys playing a variety of electronic instruments, including a laptop. The only thing on stage that looked like a traditional instrument were a few drum pads. Not actual drums, electronic pads you played like drums. Other than that, it was touchscreens, a laptop and other mysterious boxes. The end result of all this was some amazing music.


----------



## Guest

I can't believe this thread is still active and the same drivel being spouted



dmg said:


> Anything used to create sounds to be strategically inserted into a temporal setting is a musical instrument. If I put my hand in my armpit to make flatulent sounds to a rhythm imitating a known popular folk tune, my hand / armpit combo is a musical instrument.
> 
> Also, to Hades with that spammer. I want to respond to this topic, so I am going to respond to this topic.


My nose a musical instrument :lol::lol: A Computer is a Computer nothing more nothing less. a musical instrument is that which had been constructed to _MAKE MUSIC_


----------



## dmg

A computer used to _MAKE MUSIC_ is as such a musical instrument. As is your nose, if you choose. And your lips if you whistle. And your vocal folds if you choose to sing.

People who vote 'NO' are flat out ignoring the definition of 'musical instrument' out of their own snobbery, and I find that amusing. :lol:


----------



## Guest

dmg said:


> A computer used to _MAKE MUSIC_ is as such a musical instrument. As is your nose, if you choose. And your lips if you whistle. And your vocal folds if you choose to sing.
> 
> People who vote 'NO' are flat out ignoring the definition of 'musical instrument' out of their own snobbery, and I find that amusing. :lol:


Utter nonsense and complete rubbish :lol::lol:


----------



## dmg

NO YOU :lol::lol:


----------



## Guest

dmg said:


> NO YOU :lol::lol:


For you edification:

A musical instrument is a device *created for the purpose *of making musical sounds. In principle, any object that produces sound can serve as a musical instrument-*but it is through purpose* that the object becomes a musical instrument. The history of musical instruments dates back to the beginnings of human culture. The academic study of musical instruments is called organology 
The date and origin of the first device of disputed status as a musical instrument dates back as far as 67,000 years old; artifacts commonly accepted to be early flutes date back as far as about 37,000 years old. However, most historians believe determining a specific time of musical instrument invention to be impossible due to the subjectivity of the definition.
Musical instruments developed independently in many populated regions of the world. However, contact among civilizations resulted in the rapid spread and adaptation of most instruments in places far from their origin. By the Middle Ages instruments from Mesopotamia could be found in the Malay Archipelago and Europeans were playing instruments from North Africa. Development in the Americas occurred at a slower pace, but cultures of North, Central, and South America shared musical instruments.
So if I make a Nose to play tunes upon, it is a musical instrument but using my Nose to make a noise in a symphony does not make it a musical instrument.


----------



## dmg

No, a musical instrument is a device _used to create music_. If I'm in a bluegrass band, and I'm using liquor jugs to create bass tones, those liquor jugs are musical instruments even if they were created to store liquor. It's about how the device is _used_, not what it was originally _made for_.

If I have a series of jugs that I use for my band, those are musical instruments because they are being used to create music, and their current purpose is to create music. They are musical devices, despite whatever they were used for in their previous lives.


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## Guest

As I said *it is through purpose*


----------



## wingracer

Andante said:


> As I said *it is through purpose*


So I guess a V10 engine isn't an instrument either? 

Skip to :59 for the actual tune:


----------



## Guest

dmg said:


> If I have a series of jugs that I use for my band, those are musical instruments because they are being used to create music, and their current purpose is to create music. They are musical devices, despite whatever they were used for in their previous lives.





wingracer said:


> So I guess a V10 engine isn't an instrument either?
> 
> Skip to :59 for the actual tune:


*wingracer* I appreciate your sense of humour :tiphat:

*dmg * Look at it this way if you were to sell your liquor jugs to a second hand dealer what would they be sold/resold as?


----------



## wingracer

Andante said:


> *wingracer* I appreciate your sense of humour :tiphat:
> 
> *dmg * Look at it this way if you were to sell your liquor jugs to a second hand dealer what would they be sold/resold as?


I thought someone might get a kick out of that vid. 

As to your other point, it is certainly valid. But what if another jug band musician heard him play and thought his jugs had a better tone and so offered to buy them for his own playing?


----------



## Guest

wingracer said:


> I thought someone might get a kick out of that vid.
> 
> As to your other point, it is certainly valid. But what if another jug band musician heard him play and thought his jugs had a better tone and so offered to buy them for his own playing?


I said a second hand dealer what ever you dress it up as "a Rose is a Rose is a Rose"
personally I enjoy playing with large, hard jugs :lol::lol::lol::tiphat:


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## wingracer

Andante said:


> personally I enjoy playing with large, hard jugs :lol::lol::lol::tiphat:


And I bet you play beautiful music on them too.


----------



## dmg

Andante said:


> As I said *it is through purpose*


So you admit that a laptop whose purpose is to make music is a musical instrument. 

And there's nothing wrong with playing with jugs. I don't know about hard ones, though. :lol:


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## wingracer

What about making a musical instrument out of other things? I don't mean using something else as an instrument like banging on a trash can, but actually constructing an instrument from odd materials?

Think of some of Les Paul's odd guitars made from a piece of railroad track or a 4X4 post.


----------



## Guest

dmg said:


> So you admit that a laptop whose purpose is to make music is a musical instrument.


If you mean a PC that has been manufactured with the sole purpose of being played as a musical instrument i.e., the key board has notation or no markings at all and not letters and numbers and relies upon the musical knowledge and skill of the musician to produce music both written and improvised then yes, but if you are relying on a normal PC (which is what we are discussing) with a loaded program to do it for you then obviously no, it remains just a PC  do you know of a Lap Top that that fits these specs??



wingracer said:


> What about making a musical instrument out of other things? I don't mean using something else as an instrument like banging on a trash can, but actually constructing an instrument from odd materials?
> 
> Think of some of Les Paul's odd guitars made from a piece of railroad track or a 4X4 post.


Yes nothing wrong with that,


----------



## dmg

Andante said:


> If you mean a PC that has been manufactured with the sole purpose of being played as a musical instrument


That is not the definition of a musical instrument. If an item is used to make music, it is a musical instrument despite what it was manufactured for.


----------



## Guest

absolute rubbish, if in a symphony cannons are fired (1812) to add effect to the music that is what they are 'sound effects' when the music is finished the are Cannons, I really am surprised that you have difficulty with this.


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## dmg

If an object is being used to create music, it is a musical instrument. When the music is over, and the object is no longer used to make music, it ceases to be a musical instrument. This is not a difficult concept. If I take a bongo drum and use it as a door stop, is it still a musical instrument, or a door stop? I am not using it to make music - I am using it to prop open my door.

The answer is 'it is both', as it is a musical instrument and a door stop while holding my door open; just as the cannon is both a cannon and a musical instrument when it is being used during 1812.


----------



## Guest

dmg said:


> If an object is being used to create music, it is a musical instrument. When the music is over, and the object is no longer used to make music, it ceases to be a musical instrument. This is not a difficult concept. If I take a bongo drum and use it as a door stop, is it still a musical instrument, or a door stop? I am not using it to make music - I am using it to prop open my door.


It was made to be a musical instrument (bongo drum) and will always be a musical instrument.
This is what I have been saying and you have difficulty in accepting


> The answer is 'it is both', as it is a musical instrument and a door stop while holding my door open; just as the cannon is both a cannon and a musical instrument when it is being used during 1812.


No!

*I repeat* A musical instrument is a device created for the purpose of making musical sounds. In principle, any object that produces sound can serve as a musical instrument-but it is *through purpose* that the object becomes a musical instrument.
Dmg, You have made no attempt to answer my questions so I will ask for the last time.

1, *dmg* Look at it this way if you were to sell your liquor jugs to a second hand dealer what would they be sold/resold as? I am referring to the ordinary dealer.

2, If you mean a PC that has been manufactured with the sole purpose of being played as a musical instrument i.e., the key board has notation or no markings at all and not letters and numbers and relies upon the musical knowledge and skill of the musician to produce music both written and improvised then yes,
do you know of a Lap Top that that fits these specs??

but if you are relying on a normal PC (which is what we are discussing) with a loaded program to do it for you then obviously no, it remains just a PC

To borrow and old cliché "You can lead a Horse to water but you can't make him drink" 
dmg. I will waste no more time with you and bid you farewell.


----------



## dmg

From an actual dictionary: 


> 1: a device used to produce music; also : a singing voice


It does not say 'a device build for the sole purpose of producing music'. It says 'a device used to produce music'. That is the definition. I do not know why you're having a difficult time with this; that is the written definition.

I see your definition as incorrect. The definition I quoted is what I see as the accepted definition within the English language; I pulled that directly from a dictionary. I am sorry you do not agree with the accepted definition.

From Wikipedia:



> In principle, any object that produces sound can serve as a musical instrument-it is through purpose that the object becomes a musical instrument


You were probably taught a different definition by who knows who. Possibly a professor of some variety? My music professors do not share your definition. You are in a different country - perhaps there's a subtle difference in meanings because of that? Who knows. If that's the case, then we're both right. All I know is that the definition I know is what I quoted in this post - not what you're suggesting.

Either way, we both enjoy good music as we would not be visiting this message board. Let's leave it at that.


----------



## Sid James

I've been to numerous concerts where laptops were being used to manipulate the sounds being made by acoustic instruments and the human voice. They can also be used to manipulate recordings that have been made before the concert and blend these with the "live" elements. It's a matter of semantics whether or not a laptop (or a tape recorder for that matter) is an actual instrument, but I think that if it makes a difference to the sounds being given out (& projected around the hall with speakers) they yes, it is a musical instrument...


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## Argus

I can fart the theme tune to the TV series Black Beauty with pretty good intonation, but I still wouldn't describe my **** sphincter as a musical instrument.


----------



## Igneous01

the caveman looked at the other caveman and said:
"No Sound! Need Stick to Play!"

"No, no stick, use head "


I say yes it is, i certainly dont consider it as one when i think of an instrument in the traditional sense, but it is one.

It might need a power plug and electrons to make sound on it, but i could just as well say that a violin is not an instrument because it requires a bow and bio electricity to use it. Electrons and electronics are not some mysterious thing thats not from our world, its always been around us, maybe we couldnt control electrons before, but that doesnt mean that there not a natural energy of our universe. 

So my argument is that a orchestra requires a power plug as well - about 100 people who have eaten a good meal and drank some coffee/beer and are able to put up with the conductor for just another 2 hours.


----------



## dmg

Argus said:


> I can fart the theme tune to the TV series Black Beauty with pretty good intonation, but I still wouldn't describe my **** sphincter as a musical instrument.


If you can do that, your **** sphincter would definitely be worthy of the term 'musical instrument'. :lol:


----------



## Argus

dmg said:


> If you can do that, your **** sphincter would definitely be worthy of the term 'musical instrument'. :lol:


If I could do that I'd be straight onto Britain's Got Talent or the X Factor. My **** sphincter would be bigger than SuBo in no time.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

Niet!!!!!!!!! Niet!!!!!! HET!!!!!!!!! Non, NO, NEVER....
Are viruses musical instruments? If yes...PCs are musical instruments too.....

Martin, anti-Norton


----------



## Guest

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Niet!!!!!!!!! Niet!!!!!! HET!!!!!!!!! Non, NO, NEVER....
> Are viruses musical instruments? If yes...PCs are musical instruments too.....
> 
> Martin, anti-Norton


Whats wrong with "Norton" one of the finest bikes made at the time


----------



## regressivetransphobe

That's kind of like asking if a warehouse full of sheet music and pianos is an instrument. In certain ways (if you can use it to simply and intuitively play music), yes. Otherwise, it's more of a resource or tool.


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## violadude

regressivetransphobe said:


> That's kind of like asking if a warehouse full of sheet music and pianos is an instrument. In certain ways (if you can use it to simply and intuitively play music), yes. Otherwise, it's more of a resource or tool.


Couldn't every musical instrument be considered a resource or tool? The word instrument is practically a synonym of tool anyway.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

Andante said:


> Whats wrong with "Norton" one of the finest bikes made at the time


I was speaking about Norton Antivirus...it comes with every new computer trying to make you offers for buying it.

Martin


----------



## Guest

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I was speaking about Norton Antivirus...it comes with every new computer trying to make you offers for buying it.
> 
> Martin


I know you were, where is your sense of humour?? btw it does not come with every new PC my last one had McAfee


----------



## starthrower

It's not a musical instrument but it can be used to make music. So can spoons and trash can lids. The creative musician is the most important ingredient.


----------



## Guest

JTech82 said:


> No, a laptop is not an instrument. Why? *Because it's a freaking computer that's why!*


*JTech82* The nail has been hit right on the head old chap. I do miss you if only you could see this is still going on and on and on...on...on


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## quack

Is the internet a symphony with its interweaving themes, its fugues and cadenzas, or is it just people pointlessly, tirelessly, endlessly arguing. These seem like relevant links:


----------



## DjPaBlu

*Yes. A laptop is an instrument.*

Before we can say whats an instrument or not first we must define what a musical instrument and Music is. A musical instrument is any of various devices or contrivances that can be used to produce musical tones or sounds. While Music is a form of expressing oneself. As a Dj/Producer I have produced several songs and yes I used a laptop to create all of those. We can safely assume that a laptop abides by the definition of what a *Musical instrument* is. If we we were to say it isn't an instrument. We'd be saying that David Guetta, Deadmau5, Skrillex, Black Eyed Peas, Avicii & others are not musicians. Since Music is a form of self-expression. A Laptop can deeply be an instrument because through it. Artists like the ones I said above has been using Laptops to create music. So if we're saying that it isn't an instrument because its electronic and it's main goal is not to make music. Then we should say that Horns, Whistles, electric guitars and others aren't instruments. So Please stop saying that laptops aren't instrument because it can already be considered as and instrument itself.


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## LordBlackudder

yes because those dubstep people use it.


----------



## Guest

DjPaBlu said:


> A musical instrument is any of various devices or contrivances that can be used to produce musical tones or sounds. .


Here we go again: so a Car, telephone, garden rake, party balloon, farting cow are musical instruments get real they are what they are nothing more nothing less. A musical instrument is that which was made for and intended to make music.


----------



## appoggiatura

This subject is quite painful to me. I don't want to see a laptop as an instrument but I have to admit that it is.
You know what makes me angry? Laptop-'musicians' aka famous dj's get a lot more recognition for their work than musicians that struggle and practise every day to study their instruments. NOT FAIR.


----------



## BurningDesire

No, but I do see it as an apparatus for operating certain instruments: software instruments.


----------



## BurningDesire

Andante said:


> Here we go again: so a Car, telephone, garden rake, party balloon, farting cow are musical instruments get real they are what they are nothing more nothing less. A musical instrument is that which was made for and intended to make music.


the human voice didn't evolve for the purpose of making music. The saw wasn't invented to make music. If it is used in making music it is a musical instrument.


----------



## Crudblud

A computer is more a performer than an instrument; the keyboard can be mapped to act as the keyboard of a piano, albeit in a very limited fashion that is worthless for anything beyond basic testing. It can handle multiple strings of precise instructions at once; including pitch, articulation, dynamics, tempo, time signature and essentially any subdivision imaginable as well as a myriad of parameters not available to the acoustic instrument family, including real time filtering, panning, amplification, distortion, and delay effects such as echo and reverb. A composer with enough patience to learn how to use these parameters effectively will find themselves with an army of dedicated musicians at their fingertips and a limit that far exceeds the sky.

Before any acoustic purists get mad; I greatly value acoustic instruments as well, they will forever possess qualities unattainable by electronic means no matter how advanced the technology becomes. However, I feel that electronics, amplification and other such technologies must be defended against the arguments of those blinded by their own preconceptions.


----------



## Guest

BurningDesire said:


> the human voice didn't evolve for the purpose of making music. The saw wasn't invented to make music. If it is used in making music it is a musical instrument.


I really am sorry to persist with this BUT if I must:
Lets take the Musical Saw, which can be purchased in certain musical stores it has no teeth and can get in excess of 2 to 2/12 octaves and is made as a musical instrument compared this to the builders Rip Saw which is available at hardware stores, the difference in price being $200 or more, obviously two different objects one made for a tradesman the other for a musician. So a Rip Saw is a tool.

The Human voice, this evolved over hundreds of thousands of years as a means of audible communication from a mere grunt or two into what is today a sophisticated mean of communication aka language, the average person struggles to get more than half an octave but with training and hard work it can achieve results that can get up to 'in the case of Yma Sumac' 4 ½ octaves. You don't play your voice you sing…. The members of an orchestra play their instruments the members of a choir sing. So a voice is a voice.

I think most people when thinking of a musical instrument envisage something that has been manufactured for that specific purpose.

If we are to say that any thing that can be used to make a noise is a musical instrument then it becomes a name that is so ambiguous that it means very little.


----------



## clavichorder

LordBlackudder said:


> yes because those dubstep people use it.


There you have it, from the Lord.


----------



## Philip

I consider the laptop to be a portable computer.


----------



## Guest

Philip said:


> I consider the laptop to be a portable computer.


Are you insane?? what next?


----------



## Turangalîla

The laptop is only a musical instrument if your name is John Cage, in which case a pair of scissors is also a musical instrument.


----------



## Guest

The laptop is also a dance floor


----------



## BurningDesire

Andante said:


> If we are to say that any thing that can be used to make a noise is a musical instrument then it becomes a name that is so ambiguous that it means very little.


Not at all. It is something that is utilized to play music. Anything that makes a sound can be that. Thats not ambiguous at all. Certain things are only described as instruments because they were designed for that purpose, but if something that wasn't designed to perform music is used in musical performance, in that context it becomes a musical instrument. Is that really so difficult to grasp?


----------



## BurningDesire

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> The laptop is only a musical instrument if your name is John Cage, in which case a pair of scissors is also a musical instrument.


Or if you're a composer or musician who utilizes it to create music, or a fan of the music that is made using it. Cage is far from the only musician/music lover who was open-minded about all sorts of sounds.


----------



## Guest

BurningDesire said:


> Not at all. It is something that is utilized to play music. Anything that makes a sound can be that. Thats not ambiguous at all. Certain things are only described as instruments because they were designed for that purpose, but if something that wasn't designed to perform music is used in musical performance, in that context it becomes a musical instrument. Is that really so difficult to grasp?


I give up ! as the man said "You can lead a Horse to water but you can't make it drink" stumble on my friend :tiphat:


----------



## Turangalîla

BurningDesire said:


> Or if you're a composer or musician who utilizes it to create music, or a fan of the music that is made using it. Cage is far from the only musician/music lover who was open-minded about all sorts of sounds.


My comment was highly facetious :lol:
Of course the laptop can be considered a musical instrument if it is used to create or play music. But if someone said to me, "What's a laptop?", I would not say, "Oh, it's a musical instrument."
Likewise, if someone tells me to name some instruments, I would not say, "Oh, oboe, flute, piano, cello, laptop." But all of this does not mean that a laptop cannot function as an instrument.


----------



## PetrB

If it is not producing its own sounds, no, and it does not until you load in samples or use it to command another sound module.

At best, it is the keys of a keyboard, but not the instrument, for it has no guts of harp, strings, or anything with which to make sound.

As a midi controller, it is analogous to an old-style player piano roll, all the data, no sound.

It would not even render the glitches and clicks without a sound line out to a speaker....

It is a tool, not an instrument. Big difference.


----------



## BurningDesire

PetrB said:


> If it is not producing its own sounds, no, and it does not until you load in samples or use it to command another sound module.
> 
> At best, it is the keys of a keyboard, but not the instrument, for it has no guts of harp, strings, or anything with which to make sound.
> 
> As a midi controller, it is analogous to an old-style player piano roll, all the data, no sound.
> 
> It would not even render the glitches and clicks without a sound line out to a speaker....
> 
> It is a tool, not an instrument. Big difference.


I don't know if I totally agree with that definition. What about turntables? Does your definition make them _not_ instruments (in the sense of turntablism)?


----------



## Guest

BurningDesire said:


> I don't know if I totally agree with that definition. What about turntables? Does your definition make them _not_ instruments (in the sense of turntablism)?


What! do you blow it, bow it pluck it hit it squeeze it??? welcome to Planet BurningDesire


----------



## BurningDesire

Andante said:


> What! do you blow it, bow it pluck it hit it squeeze it??? welcome to Planet BurningDesire


Huh?  Didn't know there were such arbitrary limitations on what qualifies an instrument. Technically you could bow, hit, and squeeze both a laptop and turntables, though those would fall under extended techniques, and I can't promise the sounds will be interesting enough for use in a musical composition.

Regardless, I wouldn't really count a laptop as an instrument in itself (unless you are hitting it or something) but more as an apparatus for controlling software instruments (synthesizers, samplers, etc.). In some regards, this makes it similar to an organ console, or the keyboard part of a piano, but considering that it can be used for controlling a vast array of very different software instruments, and being far more multi-purpose, I would at most consider the laptop (and all computers in general) more of a component of software instruments, rather than an instrument in itself.

The turntables however I think more easily fit into the category of instrument. They are a unique anomaly (similarly to radios and tape-recorders, and samplers) in that they do not generate sounds on their own but rely on the imput of recorded sounds to make music with them. However, turntables are capable of producing unique sounds via their manipulation of recordings that can be very beautiful and ripe for exploitation by imaginative composers. I think it is silly to argue that turntables used in this manner aren't instruments. Radios are a little more vague, because they basically only operate in chance. You can control volume, and what frequency is being recieved, but what comes through is ultimately out of the musician's control. Still, these mostly uncontrollable sounds can still be utilized in musical composition (as has been done by John Cage and others). Really, if it makes a sound, you can use it in a composition. Some things are designed specifically for that, others are found to have interesting properties or are capable of generating unique and interesting sounds and are thus appropriated as instruments. Most of the intentionally built instruments we have today were likely developed from appropriating found objects a long time ago, so is it really so absurd?

Welcome to planet use your imagination a little bit. Think outside the sound box.

EDIT: Also, going back to the musical saw. No, it wasn't originally a saw without teeth. That is a pretty recent developement. When the saw was first utilized for musical purposes, it was a found object, not made for that purpose. People noticed (probably by accident) that it could make neat noises, and some experimented with it and developed skill and technique, and could perform music with it. The saws that are made nowadays specifically for music making are descended from just using a normal "non-musical" tool as a musical instrument. You can still play a regular saw, with the teeth and everything, and that still makes it an instrument for making music.


----------



## Guest

Stumble and bumble your way through the world, enjoy the ride and to hell with reality


----------



## quack

Reality is that place where things are more flexible and don't fit simple categories or dictionary definitions.


----------



## MaestroViolinist

Andante said:


> What! do you blow it, bow it pluck it hit it squeeze it???


I hit and squeeze my laptop sometimes, doesn't always produce a desired sound though... :lol:


----------



## Philip

quack said:


> Reality is that place where things are more flexible and don't fit simple categories or dictionary definitions.


...says a duck


----------



## quack

Exactly! what more proof do you need.


----------



## BurningDesire

Andante said:


> Stumble and bumble your way through the world, enjoy the ride and to hell with reality


----------



## Guest

quack said:


> Reality is that place where things are more flexible and don't fit simple categories or dictionary definitions.


Oh Ducky, reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined by some


----------



## Philip

Andante said:


> Oh Ducky, reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined by some


but isn't "existing" just a concept of the mind? and why would things exist in only one state?


----------



## Guest

Philip said:


> but isn't "existing" just a concept of the mind?


For you maybe but, I exist and when I die I don't exist but lets not get side tracked cause a Hammer is a tool not a musical instrument and only confused people would think otherwise.


----------



## quack

Hammers being used as musical instruments.






I'm not sure why you are arguing this so vehemently. Some things are designed and made to be musical instruments. Other things are used as musical instruments despite it not being their primary use. Spoons, comb and paper, rubber band, wobbly hardboard, laptop, they become musical instruments for a performance but then stop being musical instruments when use them to browse TalkClassical, or eat yogurt (in the case of spoons).


----------



## Guest

Regarding the items that you mention.......what type of shop would you purchase these from?


----------



## Crudblud

Andante said:


> Regarding the items that you mention.......what type of shop would you purchase these from?


We're getting in to "would a postman whistle Stockhausen?" territory now.


----------



## Guest

Precisely , If you want a Violin you go to a music shop if you want a rubber band you go to a stationary shop if you want to use a spoon in a piece of music it does not become an instrument but simply a spoon being used for something other than what it was intended for.


----------



## BurningDesire

Andante said:


> Precisely , If you want a Violin you go to a music shop if you want a rubber band you go to a stationary shop if you want to use a spoon in a piece of music it does not become an instrument but simply a spoon being used for something other than what it was intended for.


Why do you persist even after the battle is over?


----------



## Guest

BurningDesire said:


> Why do you persist even after the battle is over?


What are you trying to say BD? In the face off all of the arguments presented are you finally admitting that the computer is not a musical instrument?


----------



## BurningDesire

Andante said:


> What are you trying to say BD? In the face off all of the arguments presented are you finally admitting that the computer is not a musical instrument?


..........nope


----------



## Guest

I realise it was a tough question but it took a long while for you to work out a reply. I am going to play tennis to day with my PC which is a racquet.


----------



## Igneous01

Its technically both. To someone that knows how to utilize it as such it is an instrument.

What would happen if you gave a caveman a violin? he would probably try to use it as a tool to hunt wild life. Did you know that the implied purpose of computers has evolved over the past 50 years?


----------



## Guest

Igneous01 said:


> Its technically both. To someone that knows how to utilize it as such it is an instrument.


And what instrument do you play ?


> What would happen if you gave a caveman a violin? he would probably try to use it as a tool to hunt wild life.


 I doubt he would be so thick


> Did you know that the implied purpose of computers has evolved over the past 50 years?


I shall ignore that it is condescending.


----------



## Igneous01

Andante said:


> And what instrument do you play ? I doubt he would be so thick
> 
> I shall ignore that it is condescending.


a) piano, laptop 

and I will admit, i was a bit brutal in my wording there. My apologies, i was trying to stress subjectivity on the matter.


----------



## Guest

Good..... how do you play your laptop?


----------



## Igneous01

Andante said:


> Good..... how do you play your laptop?


by pressing keys and clicking buttons


----------



## Guest

That's great, I have just tried that on my PC but get nothing at all so how do you manage it?


----------



## BurningDesire

Andante said:


> That's great, I have just tried that on my PC but get nothing at all so how do you manage it?


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force him to understand a simple idea.


----------



## Guest

BurningDesire said:


> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force him to understand a simple idea.


Him???? Pray explain this simple idea


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Being the father of Electronic music- I thought I should make comment here - as I once said 

"I don't want to write any more for the old Man-power instruments and am handicapped by the lack of adequate electrical instruments for which I now conceive my music." and also said
"I dream of instruments obedient to my thought and which with their contribution of a whole new world of unsuspected sounds, will lend themselves to the exigencies of my inner rhythm."

I think I had a theme here and was frustrated by the lack of electronic instruments to realize his aural visions- so I would have to say Yes to the question....


----------



## MJongo

It depends on the definition of "musical instrument". I don't really understand the point of this question, nor how this topic has 17 pages of arguing.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

MJongo said:


> It depends on the definition of "musical instrument". I don't really understand the point of this question, nor how this topic has 17 pages of arguing.


Maybe I can help you understand the 17 pages ....... for a start the definition.....
"A musical instrument is a device created or adapted to musical sounds. In principle, any object that produces sound can be a musical instrument-it is through purpose that the object becomes a musical instrument. The history of musical instruments dates back to the beginnings of human culture. The purpose of early musical instruments was ritual: a hunter might use a trumpet to signal success on the hunt, or a shaman might use a drum in a religious ceremony. Cultures later developed the processes of composing and performing melodies for entertainment.[citation needed] Musical instruments evolved in step with changing applications.

The date and origin of the first device considered a musical instrument is disputed. The oldest object that some scholars refer to as a musical instrument, a simple flute, dates back as far as 67,000 years. Consensus begins to form about early flutes dating to about 37,000 years old. However, most historians believe that determining a specific time of musical instrument invention is impossible due to the subjectivity of the definition and the relative instability of materials that were used in their construction. Many early musical instruments were made from animal skins, bone, wood, and other non-durable materials.

Regardless of how the sound in an instrument is produced, many musical instruments have a keyboard (like computers) as the user-interface. Keyboard instruments are any instruments that are played with a musical keyboard. Every key generates one or more sounds; most keyboard instruments have extra means (pedals for a piano, stops for an organ) to manipulate these sounds. They may produce sound by wind being fanned (organ) or pumped (accordion),or by electronic means (synthesizer- computer),or in some other way, ie PC.


----------



## oogabooha

Whether you think the laptop is an instrument or not, it has certainly helped cause a musical revolution. Its capabilities have brought the concept of an electronic studio into the hands of the everyday user, and this has lead to people creating full albums and creating entire genres around this.

Would you consider a wooden block a musical instrument? What about various percussion instruments that didn't originate in musical places? You also have to understand that laptops (more electronic music in general) are helping us create sounds and beats and timbres that simply aren't physically possible in our world. Saying it isn't an instrument is speaking from a strictly acoustic perspective...and, whether you like it or not, doubting the fact that it creates music from many different standpoints isn't an opinion, it's literally not factual. Isn't that the criteria for an "instrument" after all?


----------



## Guest

17 ruddy pages, would you believe it?????????????????


----------



## oogabooha

Andante said:


> 17 ruddy pages, would you believe it?????????????????


the least you can do is try to address the opposite argument instead of immaturely mocking it


----------



## Guest

oogabooha said:


> the least you can do is try to address the opposite argument instead of immaturely mocking it


You need to check previous posts before making your own immature posts


----------



## carolbrown

Then what about smartphones?? aren't they instrument too??


----------



## carolbrown

I think smart phones are also musical instruments now a days ....


----------



## Novelette

It's an interesting question. While I don't consider a laptop to be an instrument, it could only fall under percussion.

It usually comes across a musician's or a music enthusiast's mine whether a piano is a string or percussion instrument. True, strings' resonance is responsible for the sound, but the distinction lies in how it is manipulated [played] by the performer. The piano, and all keyboards, require the angular "strike" of fingers or hands. As strikes are how performance is accomplished, it properly falls into the category of percussion.

Likewise with a laptop. It's really only activated and used by angular touching, tapping, striking, keying, etc.

I realize that that's pretty obvious, but the categorization puts the whole question into an interesting perspective--for me, anyway.


----------



## Guest

carolbrown said:


> I think smart phones are also musical instruments now a days ....


Quite agree ! so is my left foot


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

We Aussies like to do things first - So see, there is even a history to computers as musical instruments..........


----------



## Guest

Hmmmm they have not improved much eh


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

^ But at least I can claim it as an Aussie first - no matter how bad it sounds........


----------



## Guest

Not as good as Rolf Harris....... and kiri Te Kanawa would not be amused my dear old Ocker


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Andante said:


> Not as good as Rolf Harris....... and kiri Te Kanawa would not be amused my dear old Ocker


But Dame kiri Te Kanawa is a Kiwi, she would not take kindly being called an Ocker.
They are a very different breed!


----------



## Guest

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> But Dame kiri Te Kanawa is a Kiwi, she would not take kindly being called an Ocker.
> They are a very different breed!


You are right there mate :lol: and you dare to put Dave dummy on a music forum ??


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Andante said:


> You are right there mate :lol: and you dare to put Dave dummy on a music forum ??


Yes good point you raise, even I had to think about putting Dave on here but I figured it would not hurt to embarrass the Kiwi mob a little... :angel:


----------



## evagreen

Yea.It's no secret that laptops have made it possible to take your computer music studio pretty much anywhere, and as they have grown in popularity, so the number of diminutive peripherals on the market has increased, too.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

evagreen said:


> Yea.It's no secret that laptops have made it possible to take your computer music studio pretty much anywhere, and as they have grown in popularity, so the number of diminutive peripherals on the market has increased, too.


tell me about - and allow crazy music to be made by the masses................. including me!


----------



## Guest

evagreen said:


> Yea.It's no secret that laptops have made it possible to take your computer music studio pretty much anywhere, and as they have grown in popularity, so the number of diminutive peripherals on the market has increased, too.


Therefore it is or is not a musical instrument??


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Yes it is.........


----------



## Guest

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Yes it is.........


I wasn't speaking to you but in the circumstances give the reasoning to back up your claim.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Actions speak louder than words


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

And more


----------



## Guest

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Actions speak louder than words


I think not!

Is this the best that you can come up with ?? 
1st video. even the use of the word 'Orchestra' is completely wrong an Orchestra is made up of a group of people (Musicians) playing (instruments) in sections Wind, String, Brass and percussion and is of various sizes from say 9 or 10 (a small chamber orch) to 135+ for a Symphony Orch.
Now this bald guy sitting at his computer is just a programmer and the computer is just a machine producing sound thanks to a special program that has been loaded, the thing is still working even when the bald guy is not touching it.
So the video explains nothing and the 2nd is worse but perhaps you can be more convincing with words and explain this reasoning of yours.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Oh so it needs to be an 'Orchestra' with Laptop. Ok then try these then..............

I could also ask you is a keyboard or Piano an instrument?


----------



## Guest

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Oh so it needs to be an 'Orchestra' with Laptop. Ok then try these then..............


I did not say that I just trying to get you to explain why you consider a PC is a musical instrument


> I could also ask you is a keyboard or Piano an instrument?


Of course a Piano is a musical instrument did you need to ask? Now come on no hiding behind You tube videos explain yourself


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Andante said:


> I did not say that I just trying to get you to explain why you consider a PC is a musical instrument Of course a Piano is a musical instrument did you need to ask? Now come on no hiding behind You tube videos explain yourself


Would have to say there is no hiding involved, I have posted examples as to why a laptop is a musical instrument and you have noted that a piano and Keyboard are musical instruments. I think the problem you express ie Laptop not being a music instrument, is due to it being a newer device.

1. A piano and / or Keyboards are both a mechanical and/ or electrical ways of mulipulating strings sounds. In the case of Piano it is achieved by mechanical means, with keyboard electronic. 
2. A laptop is not far removed from a keyboard- in fact is largely the same use of electronics.
3. the Youtube clips are examples and proof of a laptop being used as a musical instrument. QED.

Maybe you should consider explaining why a laptop is not a musical instrument?


----------



## Guest

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Maybe you should consider explaining why a laptop is not a musical instrument?


I will take a leaf out of your book and ask you to read some previous posts of mine but the short answer is "Because it is a computer" this has been pointed out many times in this thread.

Now if I have understood your posting correctly you are saying for example: that a Yamaha Piaggero Keyboard and a HP Pavilion Sleekbook are both musical instruments. Is that correct?


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Yes...........................................


----------



## Guest

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Yes...........................................


Sorry I forgot to include: Yamaha flute, B&H Tenor sax, Steinway piano, and a Cannon Violin plus a DELL inspiron 530 computer these these are also musical instruments ?


----------



## Guest

Mr Varese Do I detect an admission of defeat in your silence? A pity because I have some questions that you would find interesting, just a sweetener :

Why is it then that although I am a musician I just cannot get a tune out of my PC?? But my flute, recorders and violin present no problem should I take the PC back to the computer shop and tell them it’s a dud?


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Andante said:


> Mr Varese Do I detect an admission of defeat in your silence? A pity because I have some questions that you would find interesting, just a sweetener :
> 
> Why is it then that although I am a musician I just cannot get a tune out of my PC?? But my flute, recorders and violin present no problem should I take the PC back to the computer shop and tell them it's a dud?


Was just moving 2500 Kilometres from Perth to Adelaide - sorry for the slow reply.............

You could use your PC as a percussive instrument and bang it hard repeatedly on something in a 4/4 time signature of course:lol:


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Andante said:


> Sorry I forgot to include: Yamaha flute, B&H Tenor sax, Steinway piano, and a Cannon Violin plus a DELL inspiron 530 computer these these are also musical instruments ?


Well yes of course - you know my namesakes use of new instruments and electronics led to Varese being known as the "Father of Electronic Music"

Would you consider a synth to be a musical instrument?


----------



## Guest

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Would you consider a synth to be a musical instrument?


*Can you explain how a synth works please.* I hope the move went well it is a very stressful time if you are moving house.

Can you show me how to play a major and minor scale on my computer? Which key is for which note
In other words how do you play it (PC)


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

In Adelaide now thanks - still unpacking boxes and getting in trouble from she who must be obeyed (the wife) for logging on here instead of unpacking:tiphat:

I would suggest that is all software dependent, didn't seem to be any trouble for youtube posts I put up.

Like any instrument the scales and dependent on the functionality of the particular instrument ie different b/n guitar sax and keyboards as some examples and a PC would be no different in fact you can program the keys to what ever notes/ scales you wish - so I don't think that is a problem for using a PC as a keyboard for example............ There are plenty of keyboards out there with dead actions also!


----------



## Guest

I was under the impression that a Synthesiser was the same as a keyboard but had more “sounds” to call on and could mix.

Regarding a PC, I can’t go along with your explanation.
Is there is a program that allocates one note to one key on the PC and allows the user to control the volume and execution (without any further input) of all the notes so that you can from a sheet of music ‘say a piano quartet’ previously unseen and play this in real time with other musicians on their own instruments if so what is the program called.

Now if there is such a program (which I doubt) all it does is to allow the PC user to use the PC to play music which would not be possible without the program, so as purchased the PC is a PC and not a musical instrument this can be applied to many objects.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Andante,

there are many such application/ programs my son has one on his IPad and it does quite amasing things and yes you can sight read sheet music and play what ever you desire on it. You can even get external keyboards to add on to the Ipad- something my son does not do - he just uses the Ipad as is. Refer below:





















also below is an example of a program that turns laptop in to a keyboard instrument.
"Keyboard Music
Keyboard Music translates the sounds of various instruments, such as a piano, a guitar, or even steel drums, to your PC keyboard so you can "play" notes on each instrument. The main program screen display includes a map of a keyboard, with numbers that designate the location of each note (for example, the number 1 often equals the note "C.")"

Ref http://download.cnet.com/Keyboard-Music/3000-2133_4-10396319.html


----------



## Guest

With the version that I d/l I was surprised at what it could do (play chords on the flute) although it was restricted with no control of the volume of a note as you play or producing vibrato and would require very small hands and double jointed fingers for me to play it no doubt there are superior programs so I concede that it can be used as a toy musical instrument, however this does not mean a PC can be called a musical instrument for the reasons that I gave in my last post. :tiphat:


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

A toy musical instrument. 

Ok, we will leave it there. I think its for others to continue this debate.


----------



## niv

I'm coming in late, and to tell you the truth, I haven't read all the previous 20 pages in the thread, but here is my take on it:

It's an empty question. 

The map is not the territory! "musical instrument" is just a label we put on objects, and the exact definition of that label varies from person to person. We can argue all we want on the labels (the map), but the territory says that: it can produce music, via synthesis or sampling, either live or sequenced. 

How can I play a scale in my laptop? Well, I can open Renoise (a sequencer), and it maps the qwerty keyboard to notes, so "qwertyui" is "CDEFGABC". It's the same as playing in a piano? No, it isn't.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

niv said:


> I'm coming in late, and to tell you the truth, I haven't read all the previous 20 pages in the thread, but here is my take on it:
> 
> It's an empty question.
> 
> The map is not the territory! "musical instrument" is just a label we put on objects, and the exact definition of that label varies from person to person. We can argue all we want on the labels (the map), but the territory says that: it can produce music, via synthesis or sampling, either live or sequenced.
> 
> How can I play a scale in my laptop? Well, I can open Renoise (a sequencer), and it maps the qwerty keyboard to notes, so "qwertyui" is "CDEFGABC". It's the same as playing in a piano? No, it isn't.


I think I leave further responses on this topic in your capable hands - good luck


----------



## Jobis

Yagan Kiely said:


> The only electronic device that is an instrument (be it limited).


I think you mean the ondes martenot, vastly superior to the theremin.

also the laptop is an instrument, but has no place in classical music. In my mind, classical instruments should have a uniform timbre no matter what make they are, or where they were made. There is just too much difference between laptops and other electric instruments for a sound to be reproduced closely enough.

when a composer writes music for an oboe, he knows pretty much exactly what sounds are going to be produced, it would be impossible to explain exactly just what sound he wanted to get out of a laptop.

This is also why I consider the ondes martenot to be one of the only classical electronic instruments; it is 'simple' enough in its design for a composer to indicate what sounds he wants to produce, and also very expressive with its ability to produce microtones and great vibrato.

I seriously cannot comprehend why electronic instruments aren't made more like the ondes martenot these days; maybe laptop produced sounds allow for more individuality and sheer variety of sounds and timbres, but then what about tradition. If a piece of music only exists as a recording, its not quite timeless in my eyes as often music has to be played and analysed to be understood, not just heard.


----------



## Xapumup

Is the laptop a musical instrument - anything may be a musical instrument as long as somebody interpretes music on it. Provided the laptop is used in this manner - so it is. On the other hand, if somebody uses it only to generate musical tones without any trait of interpretation - it is not. 

It is the same with our body. Are our hands musical instrument? Sure, they may be... or they may be not. What about the voice - definitely..... or not quite all the time... The ambiguity comes from the intention with which the organon(instrument in latin) is used.

If one does not cerates(or interpretes) through any instrument, it is just a wonderful body part, a piece of wood or metal, or a pile of recycled plastic remains assembled to become an electronic device.

For me the question may be brought further to this one:

"How can we use the laptop as a genuine musical instrument that does not fall behind any other musical instrument?"

It is up to us. :lol:


----------



## Couac Addict

Only if you consider the pianola a musical instrument.


----------



## Mahlerian

Couac Addict said:


> Only if you consider the pianola a musical instrument.


Stravinsky wrote an original composition for it. It was later transcribed for orchestra as one of the "Four Etudes".


----------



## Rocco

Can you play music on it like you can on a piano? No, so it's not a musical instrument. Unless of course you think the sound of typing is music...


----------



## SixFootScowl

There are so many wonderful instruments out there that I can't see much point to turning a laptop in to a musical instrument. Too artificial in my opinion. One of the most senseless things in the world that I can think of is the computer generated music.


----------



## Rachmanijohn

The notion that a laptop is a musical instrument is silly. This generation is so obsessed with being edgy they'll try to turn anything into a "musical instrument".


----------



## guy

No, and neither is a metronome (Ligeti!)


----------



## Couac Addict

Mahlerian said:


> Stravinsky wrote an original composition for it. It was later transcribed for orchestra as one of the "Four Etudes".


Composing _for_ a pianola is like composing for an ipod.
...had he composed it _on_ a pianola. Sure. No problem...bit lazy though. Not sure how much credit Igor should deserve.


----------



## PetrB

Couac Addict said:


> Composing _for_ a pianola is like composing for an ipod.
> ...had he composed it _on_ a pianola. Sure. No problem...bit lazy though. Not sure how much credit Igor should deserve.


Composed at and played at an acoustic piano, 'inputted' if you will by the same means.
Leon Nancarrow hand-punched the actual piano rolls, much like drawing on a midi graph to have it set for playback (which is basically an electronic analog of the old player piano roll, which ran on vacuum pump.)

If you know what it is like to 'draw in' a complex work on a midi graph, you would not call any of these processes "lazy."


----------



## Art Rock

A recent post in my blog's unusual concertos series:

Concerto for iPad and orchestra by Ned McGowan.


----------



## Mahlerian

Couac Addict said:


> Composing _for_ a pianola is like composing for an ipod.
> ...had he composed it _on_ a pianola. Sure. No problem...bit lazy though. Not sure how much credit Igor should deserve.


It's actually impossible to play on a piano...


----------



## PetrB

Art Rock said:


> A recent post in my blog's unusual concertos series:
> 
> Concerto for iPad and orchestra by Ned McGowan.


If you consider a synthesizer an 'instrument' as we all do the first synthesizer, the organ, then maybe yes, the computer / iPod is 'an instrument.' I guess the semantic argument would be a little bit about whether the medium is the message, or merely the messenger boy.


----------



## MelodicHarmony

I would say it is a music player rather than a musical instrument. You can label almost anything percussion if you can hit it and it makes a sound (though a laptop would more likely be junk percussion), but i wouldn't even label this under junk percussion. I see a musical instrument as something you can blow, strum, strike or scrape and a laptop is none of these things. So music player rather than instrument is what i'm going for


----------



## breakup

My dad used to say there was one musical instrument that he could play, - the radio. I think it was a bit of a joke.


----------



## elgar's ghost

In answer to the original question I would say no, as musical instruments don't tend to fizzle out after about five years.


----------



## Poodle

breakup said:


> My dad used to say there was one musical instrument that he could play, - the radio. I think it was a bit of a joke.


I'm wit you there! :lol:


----------



## Pugg

> Do you consider the laptop to be a musical instrument?


The no is way ahead .


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

The University of Agder in Kristiansand, Norway has an area of study where they have laptop as "main instrument"


----------



## Pugg

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> The University of Agder in Kristiansand, Norway has an area of study where they have laptop as "main instrument"


That's very progressive I say . :tiphat:


----------



## Merl

Depends on how it's being used.


----------



## Fletcher

I worked with a small group of people in Brussels who were composing and recording music for (mostly) piano and electronics. They put it as _"using a computer as a musical instrument"_.

Do I consider the laptop a musical instrument? - I'm not too sure
Is it possible to use a laptop/computer as a musical instrument? - Yes


----------



## Dan Ante

*I thought it would be interesting to bump this thread dated from start in 2009.*


----------



## Dan Ante

JTech82 said:


> No, a laptop is not an instrument. Why? Because it's a freaking computer that's why!


You got it JT no matter how hard you blow, bow or suck it a PC is all it is


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Dan Ante said:


> You got it JT no matter how hard you blow, bow or suck it a PC is all it is


But does that not make a mess.....................


----------



## Dan Ante

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> But does that not make a mess.....................


Can do Eddie can do


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Dan Ante said:


> Can do Eddie can do


Same for the theremin hey bro


----------



## Dan Ante

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Same for the theremin hey bro


I don't see a connection Mr Edd


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Dan Ante said:


> I don't see a connection Mr Edd


_As in "no matter how hard you blow, bow__(excepted) __or suck a" T__heremin - your gunna make a big mess and probably get electrocuted_


----------



## Dan Ante

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> _As in "no matter how hard you blow, bow__(excepted) __or suck a" T__heremin - your gunna make a big mess and probably get electrocuted_


Ha now I get it very subtle Eddie, this electricity thingy can be a dangerous thingy in fact it should be banned and not allowed in the presence of proper musicians.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Dan Ante said:


> Ha now I get it very subtle Eddie, this electricity thingy can be a dangerous thingy in fact it should be banned and not allowed in the presence of proper musicians.


But then will you record it


----------



## Flutter

Laptop itself? no
Certain interfaces on and with software? well yes, some interfaces can be interacted with and used to create unique sounds in real-time. (and also taking into consideration things that link up with interfaces that you can use in conjunction)


----------



## Dan Ante

Flutter said:


> Laptop itself? no
> Certain interfaces on and with software? well yes, some interfaces can be interacted with and used to create unique sounds in real-time. (and also taking into consideration things that link up with interfaces that you can use in conjunction)


You got it Flutter  I am surprised that no one else seems interested in postings, I bet if Some Guy was still around he would have a go, but so be it.


----------



## NLAdriaan

Without laptops or computers, the current music production would fall silent. So, simple as it is, laptops are used as musical instruments. A synthesizer is also just a disguised laptop with a keyboard.


----------



## Dan Ante

NLAdriaan said:


> Without laptops or computers, the current music production would fall silent. So, simple as it is, laptops are used as musical instruments. A synthesizer is also just a disguised laptop with a keyboard.


The industry was producing music long before PC were around and using a PC to record and then assist in the production of a copy of that music does not class it as a musical instrument, the same applies to the humble tape recorder.


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

If you can go crazy fingers on the controls and that wild human spirit makes the computer sing - yep .

*871ft iufvr qdu*


----------



## apricissimus

If you're using a laptop to make music, then it is a musical instrument. People do use them in live performance.

For example:


----------



## Dan Ante

apricissimus said:


> If you're using a laptop to make music, then it is a musical instrument. People do use them in live performance.
> 
> For example:


I know what you mean but I disagree. 
So a wind machine used in an alpine symphony is a musical inst, a Cannon used in the 1812 overture is a musical inst an ambient sound in 4.33 etc etc.
If you use a violin to play table tennis does that make it a table tennis bat? 
Lots of things can be used to do other tasks other than that which it was designed for but they remain whatever it was that it was designed for.
Neither my desk top or lap top can make music as in their original condition.:tiphat:


----------



## philoctetes

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## Dan Ante

philoctetes said:


> Computers are by nature not designed for specific applications


But musical instruments are, their sole purpose is to facilitate the making of music no more no less.


> They are probably the most multi-purpose device ever created. And if you look at the names of companies who make computerized devices, you might find that some have "Instruments" in their names. I worked for one such company myself.


I have a HP lap top and a DELL desk top they were not intended or purchased to make music, all of my friends have computers and they are not for making music, they are simply computers.



> So if it can load and run software that generates music electronically and outputs an audio signal, it can be a musical instrument
> All instruments require artifice for human use - while the wind can blow through the trees and make a sound that we cannot make, we can take a piece of the tree and shape it to make a sound the tree cannot make. So the computer is just another approach to the art of transforming something into an instrument.


It cannot be a wind or string instrument or even a drum, if your program converts the PC key pad into a musical keyboard you would need miraculous fingers to play even the simplest of melodies and chords


----------



## philoctetes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## Dan Ante

philoctetes said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not too late at all it is always interesting to hear what other people think


----------



## Guest

Anything that can produce music is a musical instrument. You can produce music by pressing keys on a piano, or by writing code. While people argue the semantics of "musical instrument" most of the music people listen to today is produced with computers.


----------



## Dan Ante

Baron Scarpia said:


> Anything that can produce music is a musical instrument. You can produce music by pressing keys on a piano, or by writing code. While people argue the semantics of "musical instrument" most of the music people listen to today is produced with computers.


I disagree, a tin can is made to contain something the fact that some guy in a deserted warehouse bashes a beat out of it does not make it a musical instrument, if I stamp my foot in accompaniment to music that I am listening to does change the fact that a foot is a foot is a foot, and how do you come to the conclusion that that computers are the most producers of music? do you mean after the musicians have performed the computer is used to convert the sound to hard copy or what?


----------



## Guest

Dan Ante said:


> I disagree, a tin can is made to contain something the fact that some guy in a deserted warehouse bashes a beat out of it does not make it a musical instrument, if I stamp my foot in accompaniment to music that I am listening to does change the fact that a foot is a foot is a foot, and how do you come to the conclusion that that computers are the most producers of music? do you mean after the musicians have performed the computer is used to convert the sound to hard copy or what?


Turn on the radio you will mostly hear music assembled from audio samples or synthesized sounds assembled on computers. Now I will save you some typing and anticipate your objection that "that's not music."


----------



## Dan Ante

Baron Scarpia said:


> Turn on the radio you will mostly hear music assembled from audio samples or synthesized sounds assembled on computers. Now I will save you some typing and anticipate your objection that "that's not music."


The radio stations that I listen to would be 95% acoustic classical on the odd occasion there will be a program on electronic music which does not interest me, the stations are from all over the world, so not by any stretch of the imagination would you call it *mostly*.


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## SONNET CLV

Is the laptop a musical instrument?
Certainly.

Haven't you ever gotten frustrated at your laptop while punching out your latest term paper? And so you slam down the lid and start drumming on the laptop cover, say performing the solo from "In a Gadda da Vida"? Heck … that's as musical as it gets.


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## mikeh375

One might consider software such as LogicPro, Cubase or Sibelius a kind of instrument, especially when one considers the creative potential of in-built and 3rd party synths with their programming and sonic potential, sequenced within DAW's.

The joy of learning a real instrument and all the benefits, sense of achievement and well being it bestows on the player are not something mastering software can truly offer imv, (I've had to learn both in my career), but then again I am old school. On that basis, I voted a hesitant no. Youngsters will probably disagree and that's fair enough.

I'll just add that I use a laptop to compose with occasionally so I _can_ regard it as a kind of instrument. I use the software below, it is quite remarkable especially for someone like me who prefers writing on manuscript. (like I said, old school  ).

https://www.staffpad.net


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## 1996D

No, that's like saying conducting is playing an instrument.


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## Guest

*https://music.princeton.edu/events/plork-princeton-laptop-orchestra*


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## Joachim Raff

Yes, but it suits certain music genre more than others. This being a classical music forum, i would say it generally does not suit classical.


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## Flamme

Strangely But Yes.


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## millionrainbows

Dan Ante said:


> I know what you mean but I disagree.
> So a wind machine used in an alpine symphony is a musical inst, a Cannon used in the 1812 overture is a musical inst an ambient sound in 4.33 etc etc.
> If you use a violin to play table tennis does that make it a table tennis bat?
> Lots of things can be used to do other tasks other than that which it was designed for but they remain whatever it was that it was designed for.
> Neither my desk top or lap top can make music as in their original condition.:tiphat:


This is a non-comprehension of the nature of computers. What if I had a tool that could be morphed in to a violin, or a crescent wrench? Then all this violin/ping-pong analogy becomes meaningless.


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## AeolianStrains

Are tape recorders musical instruments? What if I tape a violin solo, and then play it back? It's making music, right?

A laptop is only the casing. Depending on the type, a computer could be a synthetic instrument or an instrument emulator, but it's a different kind of beast than a violin.

Are houses chairs? I can sit on a house, so yes. Prove it wrong.


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## Flamme




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## Kopachris

I would consider the software on the laptop or other computer to be individual instruments. Each software synthesizer I load is its own instrument and its orchestration must be considered just like any other instrument.


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## TMHeimer

In an electronic music course I took back in college the definition given to music was "organized sound". That could mean anything-- even RAP! So, I guess you could organize dropping your laptop on the floor and call that music. 
I voted no.


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## AeolianStrains

TMHeimer said:


> In an electronic music course I took back in college the definition given to music was "organized sound". That could mean anything-- even RAP! So, I guess you could organize dropping your laptop on the floor and call that music.
> I voted no.


Given that ordinary speech is organized sound, that definition is awful.


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## Ethereality

Seeing as though the universe exists inside of a laptop, I'd bargain to say it's the only musical instrument.


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