# Seeking a Beethoven period cycle



## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Hello all,

I have a conventional Beethoven 'set' (actually individual discs from Bohm, Karajan, Walter and Wand), but I would love to acquire a cycle performed on period instruments (and/or a chamber orchestra - not sure where the overlaps are here - sorry, newbie). 
Specifically, I would love to hear a really clear, defined sound, to hear elements - e.g. woodwinds - that may get a bit lost in the bigger sound of big-band recordings. 
As one reviewer (I think this was a TalkClassical chart, btw?) said of Gardiner's set: "It's like seeing the bright colors of Michelangelo's frescoes in the Sistine Chapel after restorers removed centuries of candle wax and soot and those little loincloths that were added for modesty." 
Yes, that sounds like what I am seeking.
For comparison, I LOVE the sound of Minkowski's Schubert and am saving up for his set. He doesn't appear to have done any Beethoven, though. 
So, which cycle would you recommend? Gardiner, Bruggen (if so, which), Mackerras (ditto), Immerseel, Norrington, AN Other?
In anticipation, many thanks! And apols for any naive remarks...
Steve


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

1. *Gardiner *- I somewhat agree with the review you mentioned above. It doesn't invalidate the old-school interpretations but it's a refreshing change and the performances are as "alive" as any other. Gardiner's readings do not lack in intensity or fire.
2. *Chailly *- Keep in mind this isn't fully "Period" or HIP, the tempi are perhaps faster than anyone on record, but he uses modern instruments so that may not be what you're looking. Ditto for *Zinman*. Nevertheless, they're both excellent (if somewhat straightforward), the edge goes to Chailly.

Last but not least, avoid *Norrington*. I can't put my finger on it, I just don't care for it.

You didn't mention *Hogwood*, he uses period instruments but his tempi are certainly not always HIP-like, look at his first movement of the Eroica which comes in at nearly 18 minutes.  I do appreciate that he doesn't take a uniform, one size fits all approach, though. It's worth hearing. I'm not too familiar with Immerseel and Mackerra's Beethoven.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I really like the live cycle from Emmanuel Krivine and La Chambre Philharmonique (on Naive) - a very vivid set, I think.


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## omega (Mar 13, 2014)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> 1. *Gardiner *- I somewhat agree with the review you mentioned above. It doesn't invalidate the old-school interpretations but it's a refreshing change and the performances are as "alive" as any other. Gardiner's readings do not lack in intensity or fire.


My favourite cycle. DiesIraeVIX said everything about it...


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is one period set that I have and some say is wonderful, others are not so keen on it. If you shop around it can be had fairly reasonably priced. I paid $3 for the set, and it comes with a disc of overtures and the Missa Solemnis. I think the issue is how it was recorded as I recall in a period venue which produced some curious quality to the sound something like that. This one will definitely be different from any Beethoven cycle you have now.
Worth listening to clips on Allmusic (click here).


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Here's a dark horse: Rene Leibowitz with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. An older recording but in fine sound. Very energetic and HIP-like, although HIP had hardly been invented then. Crisp, clear textures and virtuosic woodwind playing. Tempi, mostly the way Beethoven specified them.

An added virtue: It's a $2.69 download including a lot of other good stuff!

http://www.amazon.com/Genius-Beetho...431104422&sr=1-1&keywords=genius+of+beethoven


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Here's a dark horse: Rene Leibowitz with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. An older recording but in fine sound. Very energetic and HIP-like, although HIP had hardly been invented then. Crisp, clear textures and virtuosic woodwind playing. Tempi, mostly the way Beethoven specified them.
> 
> An added virtue: It's a $2.69 download including a lot of other good stuff!
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Genius-Beetho...431104422&sr=1-1&keywords=genius+of+beethoven


This one should be purchased by all Beethoven fans, regardless of other cycles they may wish to purchase, so get this and still seek out the HIP performance.


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## Guest (May 8, 2015)

I will also recommend Gardiner. Immerseel is exciting, but more of a curiosity for me. They take the tempos VERY brisk - picture Beethoven hopped up on speed. Gardiner nails it.


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

I like both sets from Gardiner and Immerseel. But none would be among a few favorite sets of LvB. Gardiner is closer to the selected few, but if I would be pressed to choose between these two my choice would be based on dissimilarity of HIP and conventional approach.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Always been a fan of Gardiner but Brüggen's second set live in Rotterdam had recently become my new favourite.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

as I wrote on another thread have just recently spent a lot of time listening to Gardiner recordings of Beethoven that I had bought but paid little attention to initially-7th and 8th as well as the 5th Piano concerto and Choral Fantasy-so impressed with them that I then ordered 5th,6th and 9th and have listened to them today and they are quite simply superb-I agree unreservedly with the idea that it is a little like hearing the works for the first time, as a 'cloud' of preconceptions and assumptions lifts-and you can pick them up individually or as a set for next to nothing!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I listened to Gardiner's Eroica a lot last year and love it. It may be one of the best renditions of the 3rd out there.


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## Guest (May 8, 2015)

Norrington was the first set I got. For a long time I didn't feel I needed to listen to another. It's that good. Of course now I like my newer recordings for better sound quality but Norrington's is still my favorite 9th.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Gardiner is all round the most consistently good HIP recording. Immerseel is, I think, more exciting but he opts for the slow interpretation of tempo markings in the finale of the 9th (dotted crotchet=84 instead of what Beethoven more likely meant: dotted minim=84). The slower tempo is more majestic and stately but the faster tempo, as heard in the Gardiner, is much more celebratory and powerful. 

Zinman's cycle is one I like very much which I think uses modern instruments mainly if you end up preferring that sound for Beethoven but an overall HIP inspired interpretation. The 9th's finale uses the faster tempo (I get very picky about which tempo is used here!)


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Thanks everyone, illuminating answers as ever. I'm new to the whole period vs big-band debate (or perhaps debate isn't quite the right word, as most people will say that both have their merits) and it's very interesting.
On reflection, I don't even know if it's necessarily a period cycle I am after - though I think so, probably.
What I am seeking is a cycle with nice crisp sound where you can really hear all the different parts of the orchestra - sinewy woodwind et al. 
Gardiner? Harnoncourt? Vanska? Immerseel? I dunno and had better sample these and more. 
As I say, Minkowski's Schubert 9 really impressed me with this clarity across all instruments, and I am looking for something similar...


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## CMonteverdi (May 2, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> I really like the live cycle from Emmanuel Krivine and La Chambre Philharmonique (on Naive) - a very vivid set, I think.


Another vote for Krivine's cycle...

LK


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I am surprised nobody mentioned Abbado.


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## leroy (Nov 23, 2014)

give this one a try http://www.amazon.com/Live-Carnegie-Hall-Beethoven-Symphonies/dp/B0090OPC00 may be even better than his original recording with Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

Was blown away today with 3rd from Immerseel set. True involvement.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Just been reading the very fulsome reviews of Immerseel's set on Amazon and thinking that might be the one for me. Words like beauty and clarity come up a lot. 
Krivine sounds very fine too, but perhaps - for now - just out of my budget.


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## Guest (May 11, 2015)

Steve Wright said:


> Thanks everyone, illuminating answers as ever. I'm new to the whole period vs big-band debate (or perhaps debate isn't quite the right word, as most people will say that both have their merits) and it's very interesting.
> On reflection, I don't even know if it's necessarily a period cycle I am after - though I think so, probably.
> What I am seeking is a cycle with nice crisp sound where you can really hear all the different parts of the orchestra - sinewy woodwind et al.
> Gardiner? Harnoncourt? Vanska? Immerseel? I dunno and had better sample these and more.
> As I say, Minkowski's Schubert 9 really impressed me with this clarity across all instruments, and I am looking for something similar...


You may like the Paavo Jarvi set if you're not sure about the period part of the equation. It's a historically informed performance cycle played on modern instruments but with a smaller orchestra. The sound is VERY crisp and the recording is rather new and exceptionally good in my opinion. This is my set of choice right now and it is worth the investment.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Well, I've gone (in the first instance at least) for *Immerseel*. I like what I hear, and was pointed towards a good deal on eBay (thank you, *Florestan*).
He edged in ahead of: 
- Jarvi, Krivine and Bruggen 2011 - all sound excellent, but just out of my budget at mo. Birthday present(s) perhaps. 
- Gardiner, who is clearly many people's choice for this sort of thing - but my Gramophone Guide calls his Pastoral 'rather joyless', and the Pastoral is one of the ones I am most looking forward to hearing on period instruments. But will probably come to JEG in time too!


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

Steve Wright said:


> Well, I've gone (in the first instance at least) for *Immerseel*.


Be careful, Immerseel is very far from traditional readings. This is a case or either love or hate.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

The Immerseel set is known for also being as authentic as possible, going right down to instruments made within a fairly small radius of where Beethoven lived/performed. 

Another great recording of only the Eroica is by Ensemble28 on NEOS. This recording makes use of period instruments, the original number of instruments (28 in total as the name of the orchestra implies) and I believe it's even recorded in the very room it was premiered in so you can get as close of an idea of what it was like to hear the very first performance as you possibly can. Mind you, the second movement is much faster than you might expect, but in every way it's much more of a funeral march than a molto adagio. I really think it's superb, with crystalline sound and ultimate clarity.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> The Immerseel set is known for also being as authentic as possible, going right down to instruments made within a fairly small radius of where Beethoven lived/performed.


Wow. After the food miles movement, now it's music miles? Who knew...
That sounds like a degree or two of authenticity more than I require personally - but I have been listening to Immerseel on YouTube (they're there - all nine) and I am fairly confident that I am going to enjoy the set.
I like my Bohm and Walter Pastorals, but THIS is how I really want to hear that symphony:






The instrument that comes in at 00:34 or so (recorder? Sorry, so ignorant!): that just says Pastoral (or pastoral) to me.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Not recorder, probably just a wooden flute. Recorders made from wood sound remarkably similar to flutes made from wood. In Bach's day they were often interchangeable, his 4th Brandenburg Concerto calls for either, but by the time Beethoven was composing, recorders had long gone from orchestral music as they had been replaced by their much more agile counterparts: the transverse flute.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

*Krivine's Sixth*



Steve Wright said:


> Just been reading the very fulsome reviews of Immerseel's set on Amazon and thinking that might be the one for me. Words like beauty and clarity come up a lot.
> Krivine sounds very fine too, but perhaps - for now - just out of my budget.


Despite my lukewarm feelings regarding Beethoven's period performances [Hail Herr Furtwangler and Karajan!], I must concede being mesmerized by Krivine's Sixth. Such marvelous beauty.

Fear not, for YouTube is here: Emmanuel Krivine conducting La Chambre Philharmonique


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Not recorder, probably just a wooden flute. Recorders made from wood sound remarkably similar to flutes made from wood. In Bach's day they were often interchangeable, his 4th Brandenburg Concerto calls for either, but by the time Beethoven was composing, recorders had long gone from orchestral music as they had been replaced by their much more agile counterparts: the transverse flute.


Oh how embarrassing how I could I be more wrong! IT WAS AN OBOE


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

For those loving Klemperer, Walter and Wand in Beethoven, I can't see any being converted to HIP Beethoven.
I love HIP Bach, Mozart and Haydn, but I consider Beethoven to be the first Romantic and here I must draw the line and stick with Wand.


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

hpowders said:


> For those loving Klemperer, Walter and Wand in Beethoven, I can't see any being converted to HIP Beethoven.
> I love HIP Bach, Mozart and Haydn, but I consider Beethoven to be the first Romantic and here I must draw the line and stick with Wand.


I like sets from Klemperer and Walter (and some other traditional too). And I like sets from Immerseel, Gardiner, Jarvi, etc. Is there a reason to limit ourselves only to one approach or another?


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