# Musical Stereotypes with Truth to them



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

The Russian composers could be very stereotypical.

*The "Russian" submediant*
Yes, this is named after them. If you know fixed-solfege, then the syllables So-Si-La and La-Le-So may have pitch meaning to you. That chromatic floating around the 5th and 6th scale degrees pigeonholes Russian composers _instantaneously_, very few others did it quite like them.

Here's one of my favorite examples of it, it becomes a joke-cliche by how it's used here. It's like Arensky is smearing in his audience's face, "I'm a Russian! I'm a Russian" over and over.




:lol:

What other kinds of true characterizations/stereotypes can you say about other composing styles?


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Kind of like using the Dresden Amen says Diese ist Deutsch Musik


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

or using the mixolydian mode says Is é an ceol gaelach


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

All of them.


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## gridweb (Jun 19, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> That chromatic floating around the 5th and 6th scale degrees pigeonholes Russian composers _instantaneously_, very few others did it quite like them.


I would be interested in: why?
Does this have roots in Russian folk music?
Or in Orthodox church music?


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

It makes me think more of French composers, and more schmaltzy jazz than it makes me think Russia XD


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

gridweb said:


> I would be interested in: why?
> Does this have roots in Russian folk music?
> Or in Orthodox church music?


That would be interesting to know. I have no idea.

*Goes on quest*...

I'm surprised that no one else has thought of any.

When you think of German (romantic) music, what do you think of? _Tons of brass!_ :trumpet:

When you think (late romantic) French music, what do you think of? Gossamer treatment of woodwinds and strings and gooey harmonies.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Here's an obvious one. Beethoven is sometimes known as "Mr. Dominant Tonic" or sometimes as "Mr. Dominant Tonic Dominant Tonic Dominant Tonic Dominant Tonic Dominant Tonic Dominant Tonic." If you hear a whole string of these, it's probably just Ludwig wrapping things up.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> When you think (late romantic) French music, what do you think of? Gossamer treatment of woodwinds and strings and gooey harmonies.


Or harp (usually with flute), or wordless women's chorus...I tend to stay away from the genre, being diabetic.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Or harp (usually with flute), or wordless women's chorus...I tend to stay away from the genre, being diabetic.


Harp and Flute, yes, good point.

Did my research!

Yes, the Russian submediant was likely derived from folk influence, not that it's actually used in folk music. But Russian folk music tends to combine relative major and minor modes very easily in the same melody, and Russian classical music does the same. The motion of the Russian submediant is how the 2 keys can oscillate in a foggy harmonic world. In an article I read, the author said it even seemed to produce a "super key" where something could be in A minor and C major simultaneously.

Not to mention *Pentatonicism *is probably the next most stereotypical feature of Russian romantic composers.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Beethoven and his dynamics.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

There is the 'Scottish snap.' Not being a musician, the theory behind it goes above my head, but I do recognise it if I hear it. I know it appears in Mendelssohn's _Sym.#3 'Scottish' _and also in Bax's _Sym.#6_.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Australian classical music often incorporates sounds and rhythms of the native Aboriginal peoples. The sound of the clapsticks and didgeridoo have been replicated by our comosers.

Peter Sculthorpe's Kakadu, named after Kakadu National Park in Northern Australia, has rhythms in its opening similar to those Aboriginal instruments. The slow, quiet and rather tragic tune in the middle of this piece is actually taken from an Aboriginal song from the Kakadu region that Sculthorpe heard on an old recording made in the early-mid 20th century, before that type of music died out there.

I hear similar percussive rhythms and drones in the final movement of Philip HOughton's Suite of 6 trios for guitars.


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

There's a short melodic motif that Grieg uses so often we actually call it the Grieg-motif. It's a falling minor second followed by a falling major third, or a falling major second followed by a falling minor third.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

American Country music has roots in Irish traditional/country music!


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Norse said:


> There's a short melodic motif that Grieg uses so often we actually call it the Grieg-motif. It's a falling minor second followed by a falling major third, or a falling major second followed by a falling minor third.


Do-Ti-So right?






Yeah, that's an excellent example.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Of the numerous numerous examples I could come up with, here's a latest discovery. Listen to the french horn when it enters right at the beginning, it's doing the same thing, only this time it's a part of the harmonic support.






And for an example from the other side of the Russian coin (the cosmopolitans), Tchaikovsky's work here does the typical bass movement of the Russian submediant at 5:50 - 5:53


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Arsakes said:


> American Country music has roots in Irish traditional/country music!


So does Australian folk music (of the British people that colonised the place, incl. Irish). One of our famous colonial era ballads The Wild Colonial Boy is said to have come from Ireland.


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## xuantu (Jul 23, 2009)

As I mentioned in another thread, the dark-toned viola often evokes the image/idea of death in concertos written for this instrument, for example:

Bartok - viola concerto, from 3:41 onward





Schnittke - viola concerto





Penderecki - viola concerto





Kancheli - Styx, starts at 3:11





Dufourt - Le Cypres blanc





Don't know if this can be count as a kind of musical stereotype ...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Not a concerto, but the same idea in a viola sonata. Shostakovich's very last work.


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## xuantu (Jul 23, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Not a concerto, but the same idea in a viola sonata...


I like this instrument a lot. Nevertheless, (quoting a cliche) I'd probably scream if I hear another piece written in this vein.


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Do-Ti-So right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, that would be the most famous example. But once you're aware of it, you'll notice it here and there in other works as well. This is a very obvious example:






A less obvious example is the ending of the first antecedent in this piece, this time in its 'minor' version. Sometimes the Grieg-motif is defined as falling from the tonic, which it doesn't do here.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Isn't this Grieg-motive also used at the beginning of Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C-sharp minor? 

Also, I think, this motive is used frequently in Vaughan Williams' later pieces - sixth, seventh, ninth symphonies, for example.

Best regards, Dr


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

DrKilroy said:


> Isn't this Grieg-motive also used at the beginning of Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C-sharp minor?


It's similar, but the second interval is a fifth instead of a third.

Btw, the motif is common in Norwegian folk music, which is where Grieg took it from.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Uh-oh, sorry. 

However, I was and still am right about RVW. 

Best regards, Dr


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


>


To go back to this one, there's another motif used here that's uniquely Tchaikovsky. It's in the Moveable-Do Solfege: Do-Te-Le-So-Fi. It first appears 1:25, and is repeated throughout. This motif is used in Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 4, the last mvmt, but drawing a blank on other examples. I recall Grieg using it too, but not drawing out the So-Fi like Tchaikovsky does.


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