# Do we really need a Beethoven?



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

In response to KenOC's surperfluous new thread, 'Do we really need a Haydn?' comes the tempestuous sequel: Do we really need a Beethoven?

Do we really need 1 hour of our precious time to sit through the entire 9th symphony? Sure, Ode to Joy is a nice melody, but why is it repeated for 20 minutes straight?? Was he running out of ideas there? And is the choral finale an attempt to get back at Haydn's Creation? Sorry, I think Beethoven blew that one, the Creation has far more interesting choral parts than does Beethoven's 9th.

And why does every single Beethoven symphony seek to beat you over the head with sudden foritssimos? What, was Beethoven running out of ideas again? Time to slap them over the head! Then they won't notice.

I'll give credit where credit is due: Beethoven does of course have his great moments - the first 2 movements of the 9th, for example. The introduction to the 2nd and 4th symphonies. The adagio of the 3rd and 7th symphonies. the 1st movement of the 5th. Many of his sonatas are great, ok. But still - there's plenty to criticize as well. What about that Hammerklavier finale? it goes on and on and on, look at me I'm writing funky fugues for 12 minutes straight, I've really learned my Bach. Now everybody's impressed, right?

Oh yeah, and of course, he's learned nothing from Haydn - remember that one? Let me get back to Ode of Joy again - oh wait, it reminds me of Haydn's Kaiserhymn, I wonder why. 

Anyway, don't slag Haydn, peace.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

What is with this war of hate?

Come on HaydnBearstheClock, you are above such things.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

shangoyal said:


> What is with this war of hate?
> 
> Come on HaydnBearstheClock, you are above such things.


Well, I'm not the one who 'started it' - I won't sit back and watch others slag Haydn though.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Yawn. 

I wouldn't start it, but if there's a "do we really need Verdi" thread I'll make some toxic and inflammatory comments on it


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

shangoyal said:


> What is with this war of hate?
> 
> Come on HaydnBearstheClock, you are above such things.


Well, ok, I was being slightly harsh, but still, I'm tired of hearing these ignorant comments about Haydn. If you want to slag Haydn, do it with your Haydn hater friends, not on here.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Haha, come on, cheer up my friend.

You know I love Haydn.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Sure, Ode to Joy is a nice melody, but why is it repeated for 20 minutes straight?? Was he running out of ideas there?


I never really understood Ode to Joy's reputation as a great melody. It's such a banal , square, "up the scale, down the scale" kind of melody, written almost entirely in one rhythmic value. It has one rhythmic surprise in there...sure but that's it.

And this was at a time when Beethoven was creating some otherwise fantastically beautiful, elegant melodies with amazing breadth for their time period.

Consider 0:30 and 7:54 of this video: 



The beginning of this video: 



Hell, even the melody of the preceding movement is better: 




Don't get me wrong, I like what Beethoven does with Ode to Joy in the variations, but I don't see how the melody itself can possibly compete with the ones I mentioned above, among many other late Beethoven melodies. It's just so rhythmically stiff and melodically scalar


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## schuberkovich (Apr 7, 2013)

violadude said:


> I never really understood Ode to Joy's reputation as a great melody. It's such a banal , square, "up the scale, down the scale" kind of melody, written almost entirely in one rhythmic value. It has one rhythmic surprise in there...sure but that's it.
> 
> And this was at a time when Beethoven was creating some otherwise fantastically beautiful, elegant melodies with amazing breadth for their time period.
> 
> ...


I both agree and disagree. The other examples you mentioned are very beautiful, but the Ode to Joy, despite its "stiffness", has this undeniable power. You can see this by the way the theme from the 4th movement of Brahms's 1st has this same amazing quality due to its similarity to the Ode to Joy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5vzkYFHW0g#t=383 (5:17)


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

schuberkovich said:


> I both agree and disagree. The other examples you mentioned are very beautiful, but the Ode to Joy, despite its "stiffness", has this undeniable power. You can see this by the way the theme from the 4th movement of Brahms's 1st has this same amazing quality due to its similarity to the Ode to Joy:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5vzkYFHW0g#t=383 (5:17)


I like the Brahms example. It has good rhythmic variety, harmonies that compliment the melody well, a good balance of steps and skips. I remain unconvinced by the Beethoven though. Must be a matter of taste.

And even still, that's far from Brahm's best melody as well IMHO.


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## Freischutz (Mar 6, 2014)

violadude said:


> I never really understood Ode to Joy's reputation as a great melody. It's such a banal , square, "up the scale, down the scale" kind of melody, written almost entirely in one rhythmic value. It has one rhythmic surprise in there...sure but that's it.


In any other context, I would agree with you, but I think it's the _text_ and the meaning of it that give that banal melody its greatness. But yes, if people approach it without an understanding of its intent and purpose, I think finding it fun is on par with the many criticisms Tchaikovsky's 1812 comes in for.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Freischutz said:


> In any other context, I would agree with you, but I think it's the _text_ and the meaning of it that give that banal melody its greatness. But yes, if people approach it without an understanding of its intent and purpose, I think finding it fun is on par with the many criticisms Tchaikovsky's 1812 comes in for.


That could be. I'm not one to pay much attention to lyrics in the first place


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Now that I've 'calmed down' a bit - I would actually list the entire 2nd symphony by Beethoven as a great one. The 1st movement of that symphony probably got me into him with its intensity. Also, I didn't mention the 4th and 5th piano concertos, which I find to be great and to have a variety of great melodic ideas. 

Still though - I think that it's not right to sit in front of your Computer and blurt out comments like 'Haydn's symphonies all sound the same' - if you're such a genius, let's hear you write better ones. Every Haydn symphony is different and has its special parts. Maybe Beethoven fans can't get over his excellent productivity, I don't know what it is. But fact is, I enjoy all Haydn symphonies I hear, and there are 106 of them, as KenOC correctly says.

Respect the man's efforts, listen to his works - one can still learn a lot from Haydn.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Well, ok, I was being slightly harsh, but still, I'm tired of hearing these ignorant comments about Haydn. If you want to slag Haydn, do it with your Haydn hater friends, not on here.


You don't mean it about Beethoven of course - but I don't wonder you were dismayed by the thread panning your favourite - but one good thing, after reading the ridiculous claim that Haydn is 'all the same', & the equally ludicrous claim that Dickens just went on and on in a boring fashion, I have determined to get to know Haydn & to reread some Dickens.








*Let's hear it for Haydn. 
Vive Haydn. Treasure him. Drink to his music. *








*Cherish him. Rah-rah-rah!!! *


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## Svelte Silhouette (Nov 7, 2013)

Is he still alive then?

Yes we needed one as Brahms' 1st is considered by many as what Beethoven's 10th would've been. Hence with one of the 3Bs less we'd only have had a single B even if he were a busy oneut:


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

violadude said:


> I never really understood Ode to Joy's reputation as a great melody. It's such a banal , square, "up the scale, down the scale" kind of melody, written almost entirely in one rhythmic value. It has one rhythmic surprise in there...sure but that's it.


I wasn't aware anyone thought it was a particularly good melody. I always figured it was supposed to have the simple, universal quality of a drinking song, one for all mankind. It works very well in setting the text and, as you point out, as a subject of variations. Isn't that enough?


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

Ingélou said:


> *Let's hear it for Haydn.
> Vive Haydn. Treasure him. Drink to his music. *
> 
> 
> ...


Wow! I wish the music of Haydn had the same kind of an effect on me! Haha

Anything of his that you could recommend to that end?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP, that's like asking do we need classical music? Some do; some don't.

Of course we don't need Beethoven. But, it's nice that he was here.

99% of the world's population does okay without having heard anything by Beethoven.

For those who love his music, that's fine, but his music is not a necessity and if I never heard another note of it again, I would adjust and survive very nicely, thank you.

Classical music is not a necessity. I love it and am glad I discovered it, but as sad as I would be if it was permanently removed from me forever, I would adjust and move on.


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## Matsps (Jan 13, 2014)

Considering just the piano sonatas - Yes we do.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Serge said:


> Wow! I wish the music of Haydn had the same kind of an effect on me! Haha
> 
> Anything of his that you could recommend to that end?


Sure thing! Try this link - lovely to listen to, and gorgeous to look at too! 






(And of course Haydn is alive - in the hearts of his friends.)


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

Yes, great! But what is she doing with her trumpet at the very last moment, after the music is already over, for god's sake? Something to do with accumulated vapors for sure, but that just doesn't look quite right...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Respect the man's efforts, listen to his works - one can still learn a lot from Haydn.


Robert Schumann describing Haydn: "...an old family friend whom one receives gladly and respectfully but who has nothing new to tell us." :devil:


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Do we really need hair for a haircut?


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

Not to hi-jack this fine thread, but please, anybody? Was she drinking from her horn? Because I was really freaking out there...


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

And what a fine sexy woman she was too! Happy Women's Day to her as well!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Ingélou said:


> Sure thing! Try this link - lovely to listen to, and gorgeous to look at too!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, wonderful! I'm a fan.

Just wonder, though, if she'd be quite as popular if she were plump and plain?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Serge said:


> Not to hi-jack this fine thread, but please, anybody? Was she drinking from her horn? Because I was really freaking out there...


No the opposite. Emptying out what she's put into it!


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

No, I wouldn't like her as much, for once. But did she drink from her horn? I am still grossing out...


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

DavidA said:


> No the opposite. Emptying out what she's put into it!


Well, thanks! Maybe just the way that video looked...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Vesuvius said:


> Do we really need hair for a haircut?


Yes, but we don't need bread to make a sandwich.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

All I really need is a roof over my head and some food and water. Anything else is a luxury.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Without Beethoven I may never have got into classical music and for that and all it leads to I am eternally grateful to the man. It is only recently (last 18 months or so) that I have started taking Haydn seriously and I love his music, his piano sonatas are really good, nearly as good as Clementi's!


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Robert Schumann describing Haydn: "...an old family friend whom one receives gladly and respectfully but who has nothing new to tell us." :devil:


That's exactly the quote I was alluding to, Ken .


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Typical Romantic Period condescension. Like it's their way or the highway.

Meanwhile it wasn't Haydn who wound up in the looney bin!


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Typical Romantic Period condescension. Like it's their way or the highway.
> 
> Meanwhile it wasn't Haydn who wound up in the looney bin!


Yep, Haydn saved his trump cards for last: the 12 Londoners, 6 late masses, the Creation and the Seasons, the late piano trios, sonatas and quartets all considered to be among his best work, if not his best work. Actually, I've read that Wagner and his wife Cosima once played Haydn's 99th symphony on the piano together and were both in awe of it, praising the meticulous detail and care the composer put into the work. So not all romantics were like Schumann, and Brahms' awe of Haydn is well known (he even looked to Haydn's skull for inspiration while working). He also owned the manuscripts for Haydn's Op. 20 quartets, as far as I know.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Yep, Haydn saved his trump cards for last: the 12 Londoners, 6 late masses, the Creation and the Seasons, the late piano trios, sonatas and quartets all considered to be among his best work, if not his best work. Actually, I've read that Wagner and his wife Cosima once played Haydn's 99th symphony on the piano together and were both in awe of it, praising the meticulous detail and care the composer put into the work. So not all romantics were like Schumann, and Brahms' awe of Haydn is well known (he even looked to Haydn's skull for inspiration while working). He also owned the manuscripts for Haydn's Op. 20 quartets, as far as I know.


Actually most of the 19-century romantic-period composers were Haydn fans, even if the general music public was less so (and remained that way through the 1950s!) Beethoven ordered all of Haydn's then-published works in 1809, and in his late life delighted in showing visitors the picture of Haydn's birth-house he kept on a wall in his apartment. "Imagine, such a great man coming from such a humble place!"


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

History cannot be argued with once it has ossified into the continuum stratum of Humanity. This is accomplished by time.

Unless future generations are all followers of an ideology which rewrites history, it's safe to say that the legacies of Haydn, Beethoven, and John Cage are secure forever.

What would such ideologies be? Anything you could imagine: feminism which 'de-mythologizes' the patriarchal idea of 'genius,' a state-sponsored rewrite (genius is counterproductive), a Russian-type anti-gay ideological history (John Cage is excluded), the Freemasons takeover in 2034 (Cage excluded), artificial intelligence takeover of cyborgs (all Humans excluded).


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

... and even then, people could lead a resistance movement...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Ingélou said:


> ... and even then, people could lead a resistance movement...


But we're only a pawn in their game, don't you see? If we resist, they will simply use it to invalidate us. They're just toying with us. Maybe it's a Masonic conspiracy. Maybe the "Libertarians." Perhaps Britney Spears and Justin Bieber have combined their vast resources in order to create a new "Teenage Dream" empire, in which Haydn will be dismissed and banned.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Yep, Haydn saved his trump cards for last: the 12 Londoners, 6 late masses, the Creation and the Seasons, the late piano trios, sonatas and quartets all considered to be among his best work, if not his best work. Actually, I've read that Wagner and his wife Cosima once played Haydn's 99th symphony on the piano together and were both in awe of it, praising the meticulous detail and care the composer put into the work. So not all romantics were like Schumann, and Brahms' awe of Haydn is well known (he even looked to Haydn's skull for inspiration while working). He also owned the manuscripts for Haydn's Op. 20 quartets, as far as I know.


Yes, but it's just so typical of Schumann-his way or the highway- and look where he wound up! Mister crazy condescending know it all!


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Yes, but only twice a week.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Yes, but it's just so typical of Schumann-his way or the highway- and look where he wound up! Mister crazy condescending know it all!


As much as I adore Schumann, I have to agree. His occasional pontifications are downright insufferable.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Well, I'm not the one who 'started it' - I won't sit back and watch others slag Haydn though.


I'm afraid that escalating an argument by resort to the same tactics will probably not but harden existing opinions. When an argument is sullied by the manner in which it is delivered, the effect is rarely favorable.

I sympathize with your position, you know that I'm also a devotee of the Great Haydn, but I do not see Haydn's merits [as I see them, at any rate] being so tenuous as to be threatened by the indifference of some listeners. All too often, when people pit one composer against another, there's almost a presupposition that enjoyment of the one necessarily excludes appreciation of the other.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Novelette said:


> I'm afraid that escalating an argument by resort to the same tactics will probably not but harden existing opinions. When an argument is sullied by the manner in which it is delivered, the effect is rarely favorable.
> 
> I sympathize with your position, you know that I'm also a devotee of the Great Haydn, but I do not see Haydn's merits [as I see them, at any rate] being so tenuous as to be threatened by the indifference of some listeners. All too often, when people pit one composer against another, there's almost a presupposition that enjoyment of the one necessarily excludes appreciation of the other.


Well, I agree with you Novelette - and I'd like to apologize for my banterings on Beethoven, whom I do really like as well. It's just that no single composer is 'perfect', you can always point out that maybe he wasn't as (adjective) as that other composer was, who himself wasn't as (adjective) as that one, etc. I just didn't like some of the comments in KenOC's post which implied a sort elitist attitude - i.e. oh yeah, I'm the great romantic who listens to real music, this Haydn rubble is just all the same. That's the same kind of condescention that is heard in Schumann's quotation. And some of the people who make these comments don't make an effort to even get to know Haydn's music. I generally don't write anything about composers I'm not very familiar with and even if I know some of their works and maybe didn't like them as much as some do, I'm still willing to give these composers another try. I've recently discovered, for example, that I actually like Wagner's music quite a bit, despite me being a bit distanced from him in the beginning because of his antisemitism. In any way, each great composer has their own special way of being great; Haydn's great is different from Mozart's, from Bach's, Beethoven's, Telemann's, Schubert's, etc. Let's just all appreciate each great composer for what they were best at and try to refrain from off-hand comments.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I just didn't like some of the comments in KenOC's post which implied a sort elitist attitude - i.e. oh yeah, I'm the great romantic who listens to real music, this Haydn rubble is just all the same.


I'm sorry you didn't recognize my OP in that other thread as a joke -- which it was. I assumed it would be seen as so ridiculous that it couldn't be otherwise!

As I pointed out in a later post there, I may have more Haydn than anybody else around (always a dangerous thing to say): All three complete sets of his symphonies, 2.5 integral sets of his quartets, two sets of his piano sonatas, all his trios (Beaux Arts only for the time being, until the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt set drops in price again). Sadly or otherwise, little in the way of baryton music. But that can be cured.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

This does seem to be getting a bit tedious folks


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I'm sorry you didn't recognize my OP in that other thread as a joke -- which it was. I assumed it would be seen as so ridiculous that it couldn't be otherwise!
> 
> As I pointed out in a later post there, I may have more Haydn than anybody else around (always a dangerous thing to say): All three complete sets of his symphonies, 2.5 integral sets of his quartets, two sets of his piano sonatas, all his trios (Beaux Arts only for the time being, until the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt set drops in price again). Sadly or otherwise, little in the way of baryton music. But that can be cured.


You also rubbished Dickens, remember! I'm not sure you'll ever live *that* down. Unfortunately, though people who have been on the site a while should know that you like jokes, there are plenty of people who *have* posted serious threads denigrating composers, or if not serious, apparently designed to rile the composer's devotees.

Relieved to hear that you do like Haydn after all! Now - tell me that you have Dombey & Son on your bedside table...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ingélou said:


> You also rubbished Dickens, remember! I'm not sure you'll ever live *that* down.


Come come now, I merely said he was paid by the word, a practice quite common in publishing (at least in the old days) and hardly a reflection on Mr. Dickens' no doubt sterling, if somewhat long-winded, talents. But perhaps a different adjectival phrase may be more appropriate. As defenders of Bruckner are fond of saying, he's not long-winded but long-breathed. I'm sure that the distinction is crucial.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Come come now, I merely said he was paid by the word, a practice quite common in publishing (at least in the old days) and hardly a reflection on Mr. Dickens' no doubt sterling, if somewhat long-winded, talents. But perhaps a different adjectival phrase may be more appropriate. As defenders of Bruckner are fond of saying, he's not long-winded but long-breathed. I'm sure that the distinction is crucial.


Dickens isn't 'long-winded' in my opinion because that implies meaningless padded prose. He writes long sentences - and short sentences too - and he writes long books - but they are crammed with incident & life & humour & wit & character, and these are not the usual components of long-windedness. Also, 'paid by the word' isn't accurate because he wrote in his own magazines, among others, and it wasn't about writing so many words but about writing exciting instalments with cliff-hangers to keep people buying.

The fact is, your introductory dismissal of Dickens spurred several posters on to trash him.

No, honour is certainly not satisfied. My second will be calling on you tomorrow at eleven...

PS I notice you avoided answering the question about your bedside table!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ingélou said:


> PS I notice you avoided answering the question about your bedside table!


My bedside table is covered by medical equipment. No room for such (justifiably I'm sure) weighty tomes as you refer to!

In any event, my second looks forward to the visit from your second, and I'm sure they can settle the whole issue most excitingly.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Oh, sorry - hope the medical equipment peps you up and soon makes a dignified exit from your life. 
I have told my second to call round and invite you round for coffee instead.

PS But since you added your edit, he's just told me that he intends taking *your *second out to the pub.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

BTW I took the liberty of doing a little checking around and found that Dickens was, indeed, not paid by the word. However, in some cases at least, he was paid by the page. For his Pickwick Papers, for example, he was paid an agreed amount for each 32 pages of text in letter press. Now of course that's not *exactly* being paid by the word, but it might well dissuade him from investing too heavily in red pencils. :lol:

The medical equipment thing probably sounds more serious than it is.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

.............................................


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

KenOC said:


> BTW I took the liberty of doing a little checking around and found that Dickens was, indeed, not paid by the word. However, in some cases at least, he was paid by the page. For his Pickwick Papers, for example, he was paid an agreed amount for each 32 pages of text in letter press. Now of course that's not *exactly* being paid by the word, but it might well dissuade him from investing to heavily in red pencils. :lol:


Sneaky - just when the seconds are otherwise occupied in a game of darts.

Dickens wrote long novels - Trollope wrote long novels - George Eliot wrote long novels - Thackeray wrote long novels - Hardy wrote long(ish) novels. That's what paid, and that's what the Victorian public wanted.
But today's reader wouldn't be able to get through these books so concludes they are 'boring'. The grapes are sour.

My point is - Dickens did not write long, boring books; he wrote long, vivid books teeming with life and humour. 
And Haydn didn't write music that is all the same & therefore not worth listening to.

And you agree with those assessments, because you said that your thread was meant as a joke.

So all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ingélou said:


> My point is - Dickens did not write long, boring books, he wrote long, vivid books teeming with life and humour.


I certainly don't disagree. However attention spans are out of style. Look at mass-market (airport) books. If a whole chapter is more than four pages long, it's a rare thing. I think most people don't read for pleasure but to "kill time", which is a telling phrase.

I've heard that each new installment of a Dickens "serial" was a major event, and much anticipated.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Mea culpa, I probably wouldn't tackle today the long books that I devoured in my salad days. 
Not with lovely diversions like TalkClassical to tempt me away...


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

I can't speak for anyone else, but _I_ need Beethoven.


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## Svelte Silhouette (Nov 7, 2013)

Vesuvius said:


> Do we really need hair for a haircut?


Not always as some people have their synthetic wigs cut and styled where they grow tired of them before they've worn out ;-)


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## Svelte Silhouette (Nov 7, 2013)

apricissimus said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but _I_ need Beethoven.


I need a drink ;-)

Balvenie with Beethoven then Bedtime, nite all


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I need to be dragged away bodily from TalkClassical & ordered to retire for the night. 
No will power, you see!


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Svelte Silhouette said:


> Not always as some people have their synthetic wigs cut and styled where they grow tired of them before they've worn out ;-)


To call that a "haircut" would be a lie….


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> I'm sorry you didn't recognize my OP in that other thread as a joke -- which it was. I assumed it would be seen as so ridiculous that it couldn't be otherwise!


I seriously thought you were disappointed at buying the complete Haydn symphonies only to find them all sound the same. Not having been exposed to much Haydn (yet) I didn't know otherwise. Anyway, I think TalkCassical maybe needs a HUMOR FORUM.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

I am pretty dumb when i comes to talking about musical ideas on academical/theoretical level compared to most people on this forum, but brah i have to say that the emotional intensity&expressivity on his music can't be matched by any other composer.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> I seriously thought you were disappointed at buying the complete Haydn symphonies only to find them all sound the same. Not having been exposed to much Haydn (yet) I didn't know otherwise. Anyway, I think TalkCassical maybe needs *a HUMOR FORUM*.


Gee I wonder who could head that up? :lol:


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## Whistler Fred (Feb 6, 2014)

Do we really need a Kbrnchiblovlachdrk Bronschedridrquaht?

Some claim he's the greatest composer with 28 consonants in his first and last names. Other are still searching for a composer with more than 28 consonants so there can be a fair comparison.

Me?...I'll just crank up some Haydn or Beethoven.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Whistler Fred said:


> Do we really need a Kbrnchiblovlachdrk Bronschedridrquaht?
> 
> Some claim he's the greatest composer with 28 consonants in his first and last names. Other are still searching for a composer with more than 28 consonants so there can be a fair comparison.
> 
> Me?...I'll just crank up some Haydn or Beethoven.


Anybody with a name like Kbrnchiblovlachdrk Bronschedridrquaht has got to be awesome!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Whistler Fred said:


> Do we really need a Kbrnchiblovlachdrk Bronschedridrquaht?


No, no we don't.

That name should be illegal unless a pronounceable nickname is given.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Kbrnchiblovlachdrk Bronschedridrquaht:


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## Eviticus (Dec 8, 2011)

Do we really need another pointless thread? Or even another pointless post by me asking if we need another pointless thread? Or do we even need a pointless reply to this pointless post about this pointless thread? 

All these questions are rhetorical -this is pointless writing, and at which point (the only point) is pointless reading. Just click the Forum hyperlink and save your breath...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Eviticus said:


> Do we really need another pointless thread? Or even another pointless post by me asking if we need another pointless thread? Or do we even need a pointless reply to this pointless post about this pointless thread?
> 
> All these questions are rhetorical -this is pointless writing, and at which point (the only point) is pointless reading. Just click the Forum hyperlink and save your breath...


These threads are very important. A few more and we can have an even more important poll: "Which composer do we need the least?"


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2014)

KenOC said:


> These threads are very important. A few more and we can have an even more important poll: "Which composer do we need the least?"


No Ken, no, don't go down there ...... Aarggh !!!


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2014)

Anyway, I voted for Haydn and Beethoven. Then I voted for Xenakis. For balance. Sort of thing.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

shangoyal said:


> What is with this war of hate?
> 
> Come on HaydnBearstheClock, you are above such things.


The supercilious of a post based upon inanity, perpetuated with another modeled after it, 'having' the same silly vacuous lack of substance -- well, the memory of it will die hard, making forgiveness only to come on a very slow schedule. At my age, I may not live long enough to overcome the disappointment created by this post 

Both posts remind me of the quip delivered by Gertrude Stein when asked why she left Oakland, California, 
"There is no there there."


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

PetrB said:


> The supercilious of a post based upon inanity, perpetuated with another modeled after it, 'having' the same silly vacuous lack of substance -- well, the memory of it will die hard, making forgiveness only to come on a very slow schedule. At my age, I may not live long enough to overcome the disappointment created by this post
> 
> Both posts remind me of the quip delivered by Gertrude Stein when asked why she left Oakland, California,
> "There is no there there."


Everything about Stein suggests to me that her odd writing was an antidote against the disappointments of life - she had a premeditated safety net of absurdity, which came in handy when people around her tried to be too smart with her. Perhaps she won the battle of public appreciation purely through the highly risky and patient art of NOT GIVING A DAMN.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> *Dickens isn't 'long-winded' in my opinion *because that implies meaningless padded prose. He writes long sentences - and short sentences too - and he writes long books - but they are crammed with incident & life & humour & wit & character, and these are not the usual components of long-windedness. Also, 'paid by the word' isn't accurate because he wrote in his own magazines, among others, and it wasn't about writing so many words but about writing exciting instalments with cliff-hangers to keep people buying.
> 
> The fact is, your introductory dismissal of Dickens spurred several posters on to trash him.
> 
> ...


Dickens is one of the very few folks exempted from my pithiness rule. The other is Dostoyevsky.

"What is hell? I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love." "The Brothers Karamazov"


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## Centropolis (Jul 8, 2013)

I honestly thought all of these thread titles were meant as thought-provoking and discussion starters rather taking it literally. You know all those......"xxxxx is garbage" comments. They are meant to provoke responses. If you've heard of them, it's probably not garbage.

I wouldn't mind coming up with some Justin Bieber songs if I'd make as much money with them.  Garbage to you.....probably not so for some.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Beethoven is almost too good. He's made the biggest waves out of any other composer in my book.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

TalkingHead said:


> Anyway, I voted for Haydn and Beethoven. Then I voted for Xenakis. For balance. Sort of thing.


I'm reminded of the judge, speaking to a colleague in the hall: "Well, one guy deserves 30 years and you give him 6 months. Another deserves 6 months and you give him 30 years. It all comes out even in the end."


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

PetrB said:


> The supercilious of a post based upon inanity, perpetuated with another modeled after it, 'having' the same silly vacuous lack of substance -- well, the memory of it will die hard, making forgiveness only to come on a very slow schedule. At my age, I may not live long enough to overcome the disappointment created by this post
> 
> Both posts remind me of the quip delivered by Gertrude Stein when asked why she left Oakland, California,
> "There is no there there."


PetrB, that was indeed a silly post on Beethoven as I know that he is great - but let's move on.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Yes, we need a Beethoven.

Without Beethoven, the world of music would fall flat on its side. There would not be the belief that music can change our lives - mind you, not in a collective sense - but on a personal level. His music shows us the hard resolve that a man can have, and that in expressing himself through music, he can inspire other people.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2014)

This is obviously a joke thread not to be taken seriously in terms of whether or not Beethoven was truly key figure in the history of classical music and of primary importance to modern-day audiences. We couldn't do without him. Maybe some could but by the collective "we" I mean the vast majority of classical music fans. 

I have been to Vienna several times and always make a point of including a visit to his grave at the Zentralfriedhof in Simmering. It's virtually impossible to come out of that place and not feel a huge debt of gratitude to such a great composer who struggled against all the odds with his deafness and yet achieved so much. The fact that right next "door" to Beethoven is Schubert, and just around the corner is Brahms, just makes the whole experience a bit too much to bear sometimes.

A trip to Vienna including a visit to the Zentralfriedhof, a concert at the Musikverein, a stroll around the various parks, a visit to the various composer "shrines", a few cherry strudels and coffee, is about as heavenly as things can get for a classical music lover.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

shangoyal said:


> Yes, we need a Beethoven.
> 
> Without Beethoven, the world of music would fall flat on its side. There would not be the belief that music can change our lives - mind you, not in a collective sense - but on a personal level. His music shows us the hard resolve that a man can have, and that in expressing himself through music, he can inspire other people.


But other people will have had resolve as well but it's just not got the same publicity perhaps.

I admire what Beethoven achieved, but it should be said he was already a great composer before he became deaf, and indeed highly acclaimed at that time too. And music was his life so I don't see how he could have given it up.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

We don't need a Beethoven. We need food, water, shelter and a monthly pension.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I can't think of *any* composer with a place in the canon of classical music that we could _do without_. 
But Beethoven? It's like saying, 'We'll keep the Himalayas, but we'll blow up Mount Everest'.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I could see that if I lived in a condo development and Mt. Everest was blocking my view of the lake.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I could see that if I lived in a condo development and Mt. Everest was blocking my view of the lake.


Getting rid of Mt. Everest in order for you to see a lake from your condo would be a mighty selfish request.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

violadude said:


> Getting rid of Mt. Everest in order for you to see a lake from your condo would be a mighty selfish request.


Not if I was promised a lake view in the contract I signed with Egocentric Meadows and Everest is blocking the view.
Everest records could simply be called Everest Lake Records.
You have plenty of photos of Mt Everest to keep you busy forever.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Not if I was promised a lake view in the contract I signed and Everest is blocking the view.
> Everest records could simply be called Everest Lake Records.
> You have plenty of photos of Mt Everest to keep you busy forever.


Oy vey.

I hope you're not wealthy enough to actually buy off the destruction of any significant landmarks.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

violadude said:


> Oy vey.
> 
> I hope you're not wealthy enough to actually buy off the destruction of any significant landmarks.


I may be, if I sell off my CD collection, proudly containing among many other things, 4 versions of Haydn's London Symphonies, 6 versions of Beethoven's symphonies and 5 versions of Ives Concord Sonata.

I checked. Nothing on the Everest Label.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

starry said:


> But other people will have had resolve as well but it's just not got the same publicity perhaps.
> 
> I admire what Beethoven achieved, but it should be said he was already a great composer before he became deaf, and indeed highly acclaimed at that time too. And music was his life so I don't see how he could have given it up.


No, no. It's not about the deafness. I personally get inspired from his music - the way it sounds, the things it seems to convey... there is a fire in his music which is inspiring and offers catharsis, at least as much as music can give you.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Give me the 32 keyboard sonatas performed by Annie Fischer and Klemperer's Missa Solemnis. You can keep the rest of his output.

For symphonies I prefer Joseph Haydn or William Schuman.

For piano concertos I prefer Mozart, even Brahms.

For string quartets I prefer Mendelssohn and Bartók.


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