# Who would have been a composer's favorite interpreter?



## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Inspired by my thoughts on Gould. If Bach, Mozart, or Beethoven were around, who do you think their favorite interpreters would be (over the last century)? I guess that might be a little like asking "who does the best Mozart", but maybe not. I happen to think Gould does the best Bach, but I don't think Gould would have been Bach's favorite interpreter. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Zuzana Ruzicková:










Of course, this also invites the question of whether Mozart would prefer a modern or "period" interpretation. Unknowable but might be part of the equation...

As for Bach's Cantatas? That's a hard call. I wonder if he would have cared for women in the alto and soprano parts and I suspect his decision would be based on musicality. So yes, I think he would have preferred these interpretations to something like Harnoncourt and Leonhardt's cycle.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I don't think Bach had anything against women's singing. Very probably his wives and daughters sang when making music at home. I think the young Bach even once got told off by his employer/authorities because he had made music with a girl in church (his eventual first wife).


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Kreisler jr said:


> I don't think Bach had anything against women's singing. Very probably his wives and daughters sang when making music at home. I think the young Bach even once got told off by his employer/authorities because he had made music with a girl in church (his eventual first wife).


I recall reading a biography of Bach in which it was stated that he heard women singing in Dresden (probably in some capacity that wasn't available to them in Leipzig) and remarking that he was very impressed. Probably not opera which he surely heard elsewhere.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I think this is Beethoven and his interpreter:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I am sure Mozart would have liked Géza Anda in his piano concertos .


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Reading biographies of composers, one common thread is the disdain all of them had for performers. Some, like Stravinsky, were quite outspoken and frankly rude. Some just accepted bad interpretation as a matter of course and moved on. There were few who ever really identified a performer as "preferred". Wagner really appreciated Herman Levi and Hans Richter and said so. Mahler apparently liked what Mengelberg did. I know one conductor who was a particular favorite of Menotti and that composer asked for Cal to conduct several of his works for broadcast.

It would of course be immensely interesting to know what Brahms would make of today's performances, but we'll never know. And some composers were seemingly quite flexible. Sibelius thought practically everyone did his music correctly, even when different performances were quite different.

The only composer I wish we had real evidence for is Mahler and of all the 20th c conductors, who got it right? At least most of the time? Bernstein, Solti, Gielen, Kubelik, Scherchen, Horenstein, Boulez, Chailly, Haitink, Maazel, Ozawa, Bertini, Klemperer, Walter, Dudamel? Wouldn't it be funny if he thought Svetlanov hit the mark the best?


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I've been down his road before but if you think of the conductors who trained at the academy where the composer instructed is it reasonable to believe they interpret his/her music in a way the composer wanted?

I think about this often when I think about Bruckner's symphonies. My favorite performances on record all come from conductors who were either alive simultaneous with the composer or trained at the academy where he taught -- Furtwangler, Eugen and Georg-Ludwig Jochum, Herrmann Abendroth and Furtwangler's disciple Jascha Horenstein.

When I compare the way these conductors led his scores against either the later literalists like Karajan or today's authenticists the differences are monumental. One significant characteristic is an elasticity of tempo within movements present in the older conductors that does not exist with those that took up Bruckner later. In addition overall tempos tend to be swifter with the older conductors and slower today.

Bruckner was said to be a timid fellow who suffered fools greatly and allowed all manner of people to rewrite his work so it's unlikely any definitive statement can be made about whom he liked best. His symphonies also get re-edited about every 30 years -- by many during his life, then by Haas in the 1930s, Nowak in the 1950s, Carragan and others in the 1990s and later.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Chopin would loved Géza Anda playing his work .


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

vtpoet said:


> ... but I don't think Gould would have been Bach's favorite interpreter. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Zuzana Ruzicková:


Surprising choice. I refrain from believing, that Bach wanted his music played in this bombastic, mechanical and inexpressive way. And in addition her instruments are modern revival instruments with a rather unrefined sound.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Rogerx said:


> I am sure Mozart would have liked Géza Anda in his piano concertos .


Yes, probably. And I am surprised that Josquin 13 didn't mention him at all in his recent survey of Mozart's piano concertos in the Recorded music board.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

premont said:


> Surprising choice. I refrain from believing, that Bach wanted his music played in this bombastic, mechanical and inexpressive way. And in addition her instruments are modern revival instruments with a rather unrefined sound.


I guess we disagree as to whether her playing can be called bombastic, mechanical or inexpressive.

I chose her because I speculate that Bach would immediately recognize the instrument. He would like the piano, possibly, but would probably prefer his pieces on the instruments of his time (having composed the pieces for those instruments). He also had a reputation for pulling out all the stops in his organ playing (so much so that he was scolded by Leipzig's church authorities). I suspect he would have liked the modern harpsichord (it's speculated that he owned a pedal harpsichord) and he probably would have appreciated the way Ruzicková exploits the instruments stops to produce a variety of colors and effects.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

premont said:


> Yes, probably. And I am surprised that Josquin 13 didn't mention him at all in his recent survey of Mozart's piano concertos in the Recorded music board.


Why Anda in particular?


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

vtpoet said:


> I guess we disagree as to whether her playing can be called bombastic, mechanical or inexpressive.


Yes, indeed we do.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

premont said:


> Yes, indeed we do.


Okay. Did you have someone else in mind? Just curious...


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

vtpoet said:


> Why Anda in particular?


Because Rogerx mentioned him above, but I might also have mentioned others eg. Ingrid Haebler.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

vtpoet said:


> Okay. Did you have someone else in mind? Just curious...


The political correct answer is Gustav Leonhardt, but there are others eg. Pieter-Jan Belder, Colin Booth, Kenneth Gilbert.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

premont said:


> The political correct answer is Gustav Leonhardt, but there are others eg. Pieter-Jan Belder, Colin Booth, Kenneth Gilbert.


So, out of curiosity, I was just playing Kenneth Gilbert's WTC next to Ruzicková's WTC. Interestingly, despite Ruzicková's reputation for slow tempos, she plays the majority of the pieces quicker than Gilbert. I would prefer Gilbert for the sound quality (much better) but Ruzicková is actually more playful and interesting.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Bach would love the Andras Schiff recording from his works.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

vtpoet said:


> So, out of curiosity, I was just playing Kenneth Gilbert's WTC next to Ruzicková's WTC. Interestingly, despite Ruzicková's reputation for slow tempos, she plays the majority of the pieces quicker than Gilbert. I would prefer Gilbert for the sound quality (much better) but Ruzicková is actually more playful and interesting.


There are two Ruzickova WTCs, one on a proper harpsichord and one on a revival instrument. Which one were you listening to?


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> There are two Ruzickova WTCs, one on a proper harpsichord and one on a revival instrument. Which one were you listening to?


So.... I've been listening to Ruzickova on Spotify (and ordered the box set which hasn't arrived yet). Spotify isn't telling me, unless you know which is which. Although I'm not sure what you mean by a "proper harpsichord" */s* _I assume that's a scholarly reference to a type of harpsichord and not a loaded description_ */s* but by the sound of it I'd say she's playing a "modern" harpsichord with all the stops and registers.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"…Liszt is at this moment playing one of my Etudes […] I wish I could steal his manner of rendering my own pieces." -Chopin


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> "…Liszt is at this moment playing one of my Etudes […] I wish I could steal his manner of rendering my own pieces." -Chopin


Interestingly, and according to CPE Bach, WF Bach was thought to be the most capable and talented of the Bach sons (I can't remember the exact quote but it was something to the effect that WF was the one who easily filled their father's shoes); but all of them said that JCF Bach was the best interpreter of their father's music.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

vtpoet said:


> So.... I've been listening to Ruzickova on Spotify (and ordered the box set which hasn't arrived yet). Spotify isn't telling me, unless you know which is which. Although I'm not sure what you mean by a "proper harpsichord" */s* _I assume that's a scholarly reference to a type of harpsichord and not a loaded description_ */s* but by the sound of it I'd say she's playing a "modern" harpsichord with all the stops and registers.


Difficult to say which recording, but considering your comments about it I tend to think, it's the newest recording (WTC Panton 1995 on a period harpsichord, which I BTW haven't heard, and which as far as I know was the only work she rerecorded after the Erato/Supraphon set, which I own). The label on the spotify site might however indicate a third recording for the Czech radio. Maybe Mandryka knows more about this.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

vtpoet said:


> Interestingly, and according to CPE Bach, WF Bach was thought to be the most capable and talented of the Bach sons (I can't remember the exact quote but it was something to the effect that WF was the one who easily filled their father's shoes); but all of them said that JCF Bach was the best interpreter of their father's music.


Frankly, I found the WF music generally tedious, academic, and boring compared to CPE, and his output was very limited. In the end, kept a bit of orchestral music and a CD with keyboard music played on piano, but as for the rest, say the Brilliant Classics WF box, I skipped it. But regarding CPE, there's a whole world to explore, including varied recordings. No doubt, CPE must have been an absolutely superb musician.



hammeredklavier said:


> "…Liszt is at this moment playing one of my Etudes […] I wish I could steal his manner of rendering my own pieces." -Chopin


... and of course, there's Rachmaninoff praising Horowitz' playing of his 3rd Concerto, as better than his own.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Wilhelm Friedemann was his fathers favorite, but especially as a keyboard player. There is the hypothesis that the Goldbergs were less intended for that Count (or the teenaged Goldberg) but as a "showpiece" for Friedemann who was in his early 30s then. Unfortunately, unlike his father and his brothers Friedemann became a rather difficult character and could not keep decent jobs, although he was widely regarded as the best organ player in Germany after the death of his father.

As Bach was first and foremost an organist, I think his favorite player would have to be as well. Nowadays specialization often has led to focus on either organ or harpsichord; the best known current Bach player who does both is probably Koopman, the best known earlier one was Walcha. Leonhardt played organ but less and didn't record that much Bach, Richter clearly favored organ over harpsichord.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Among those we know ...

Ralph Vaughan Williams seemed to prefer Adrian Boult among interpreters, once telling him he wasn't sure how his music should go but, "...you'll know how to do it." This even though RVW recorded some of his own stuff.

Dmitri Shostakovich said Leonard Bernstein was his preferred western interpreter. Evgeny Mravinsky, the Russian conductor that premiered many of his countryman's works, was said to have a cool relationship with the composer.

Puccini worked with Toscanini to premiere some of his operas.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

joen_cph said:


> Frankly, I found the WF music generally tedious, academic, and boring compared to CPE, and his output was very limited.


Agreed, and I'm a fan of WF's music in general. CPE is the greater composer, but WF wrote some real gems (and more for the benefit of others) there are his Polonaises and the best recording of them, in my opinion, by Robert Hill on the painoforté:











I've never been able to really enjoy his symphonies but his keyboard concerti can be quite good and full of humor. His organ works aren't all that interesting (neither are CPEs for that matter) but his cantatas, if one is willing to accept them for what they are (compositions steeped in the shadow of his father's cantatas) can be beautiful in places. WF could write the beautiful, haunting and tragic melodies that CPE just seemed incapable of, but those moments were altogether too few.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I sometimes find TC members' exaggeration of Emanuel's merits a bit too much. He uses Classical forms, but he still has what I perceive as "negative aspects" of pre-Classical music. There are many concerto slow movements that are 8~10 minutes long (eg. Wq.14 in E major, Wq.15 in E minor) and just keep going on in a constant rhythm, with a constant series of recitative-like expressions in the solo juxtaposed by dramatic ritornellos/accompaniments in the orchestra; not making a significant impression with dynamics or mood. (A lot of the more uninspired fast movements are grindy-sounding especially when the solo is the harpsichord; a lot of the time, it's pretty much "introducing an unmemorable theme and proceeding to do sequential patterns with it".) I think the problem is not the expression itself, but the length. They're a bit exasperating to listen to in a cycle. At least his father and Vivaldi kept things short, and the later Classicists varied things (eg. with more elaborate forms of variations, rondo). Wq.22 in D minor is a real gem, but Wq.21 in A minor, Wq.30 in B minor (The final movement is a bit repetitive with an uninteresting theme) are each 30 minutes long for no apparent reason imv. And there are others close to that in length. I would say Christian's No.6 in F minor isn't any weaker than those.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Whether one likes longer pieces or movements is very much a temperamental question. 

Just as importantly, good performers know how to vary the musical ongoings, pointing say to the work's nuances, architecture or a novelistic approach, when performing. Those features can be even less prominent in light-footed HIP performances, IMHO. 

And BTW, they had no music machines with repeat buttons, when listening to music in them days, so things didn't become as familiar, as they can become, for us.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

vtpoet said:


> So.... I've been listening to Ruzickova on Spotify (and ordered the box set which hasn't arrived yet). Spotify isn't telling me, unless you know which is which. Although I'm not sure what you mean by a "proper harpsichord" */s* _I assume that's a scholarly reference to a type of harpsichord and not a loaded description_ */s* but by the sound of it I'd say she's playing a "modern" harpsichord with all the stops and registers.


That is distinct from the Erato and the later one which Premont mentioned.

It must be a radio recording. On the basis of 870, it has many of the traits of her Erato CD.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> I sometimes find TC members' exaggeration of Emanuel's merits a bit too much.


It's a strange thing to say but one doesn't go to CPE Bach for his melodic gifts. He is emphatically *not* a melodist. And whenever I hear someone lose it over CPE, it's usually someone who covets melody and who (with the indignant rage of one who thinks they alone can see that the King has no clothes) just can't fathom why anybody would waste their time on CPE.

Someone once called him the Emerson of composers, which I thought was apt. In an age that was increasingly coveting the smooth, suave, Italiniate and ingratiating style of a JC Bach, CPE Bach was the high German intellect-sort of going the opposite direction. His compositions are almost more intellectual constructions and, at worst, can feel dry as chalk-dust in the wrong hands, and quixotically aloof even in the right hands. While his peers were emoting, CPE Bach was making musical _statements_. That, at least, is how I hear him and how I enjoy him.

Haydn picked up that intellectual conception of melody, structure and development from CPE (it obviously greatly appealed to him) and added a much greater gift for melody. That intellectual affinity shows up in Haydn's string quartets, first of all, and symphonies. And I think that's what blew Mozart away and inspired the Haydn Quartets. Mozart brought a real intellectual discipline to those quartets. That it was outside Mozart's normal compositional process is revealed in his using different colored inks to be sure he allotted each instrument its share of the quartet. In some small way, maybe, CPE can be credited for the creation of those quartets.

I didn't like CPE when I first listened to him. I had to learn to hear him on his own terms, as a North German composer and not as a bad Italianate composer.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

premont said:


> Difficult to say which recording, but considering your comments about it I tend to think, it's the newest recording (WTC Panton 1995 on a period harpsichord, which I BTW haven't heard, and which as far as I know was the only work she rerecorded after the Erato/Supraphon set, which I own). The label on the spotify site might however indicate a third recording for the Czech radio. Maybe Mandryka knows more about this.


Okay. Got the Ruzickova Erato Box Set today. The performance of the WTC is from Prague, 1970. Am listening to this now. These are being played on a modern Ammer harpsichord. There's a 1995 recording and that sounds like it's on a period instrument or reproduction. Setting aside her performance, I like the sound of the period harpsichord more than the modern harpsichord but the later recording is no longer available-except for streaming (so sound quality takes a definite ding). The recording I was listening to on Spotify was the Czech radio broadcast performance. I like the way she uses the different registers. It's interesting and very different from a Kenneth Gilbert.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Some information about the 1995 recording here:

https://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-WTC-Ruzickova-Kirk.htm

Her first version (Erato/Supraphon/WRC 1970) suffered IMO among other things from too much legato. In her second version (1995) it seems as if she uses to much - or too distinct - staccato. One can say, that staccato articulation in Bach generally works less well on harpsichord than on piano other than for pointing out (a few) individual notes.


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