# Composition Contest #2: Discussion/Preparation



## musicrom

Congratulations once again to ricardo_jvc6 for winning the first composition contest!

This thread is meant for discussion about potential instrumentation or form for the next competition, as well as for suggestions on improvement upon the previous round, so we can make this work better in the future.

(To make the options for the next round more clear cut and not just random stuff that I make up, I think we should start a list of all suggestions, and if an option is seconded and thirded (?), then it will be an option for the next round. A solo composition, however, is not a possibility for the next contest, unless there's a significant difference between your suggestion and the first contest.)


----------



## Crudblud

I think it would be interesting to revisit some of the choices we missed from the previous round. For instance, what about "uncommon instrumentation"? Obviously, I'm angling for something that's already up my alley, but I think it would be good for other entrants as well, to get them outside their comfort zones a little, dreaming up instrument combinations they've never seen before and trying to write for them.


----------



## musicrom

Yeah, so the options from the last round that are still available are as following, I'll start the list here, feel free to add on with ideas:

Bassoon Quintet - 1
Uncommon Instrumentation - 2
Quintet+ for the Same Instrument - 1


----------



## Majed Al Shamsi

I read somewhere that great composers, such as Mozart, would take part in small improvisation contests, where someone would suggest a bass line, and the competitors would then have to come up with melodies that go with it.

If we're done with single line compositions, perhaps we can try that?
And even if we do it again, perhaps we can agree upon a motif that everyone has to use?

It may seem counter-intuitive to add constraints to a creativity contest, but I personally think the constraints would help differentiate the actual creative people from others.

Thoughts?


----------



## KenOC

Majed Al Shamsi said:


> I read somewhere that great composers, such as Mozart, would take part in small improvisation contests, where someone would suggest a bass line, and the competitors would then have to come up with melodies that go with it.


These "duels" were pretty common before 1800 and usually involved pianist/composers. Each would have to play a self-composed piece, maybe another by somebody else, and improvise on a subject or tune suggested by the audience. And not just "major" composers, but anybody trying to make a name. For a contemporary description of such a duel between Beethoven and Wolfl, see the second entry on this page (sources usually give the date of this duel as 1795):

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/

I don't think this would be easy to do here!


----------



## PetrB

I think that whomever is deciding to run a comp competition should *just decide the parameters and announce it.*

This _town-hall-everybody's-two-cents-decides-the-parameters_ way of going about it is about as far away from any real competition as one could imagine.


----------



## PetrB

KenOC said:


> These "duels" were pretty common before 1800 and usually involved pianist/composers. Each would have to play a self-composed piece, maybe another by somebody else, and improvise on a subject or tune suggested by the audience. And not just "major" composers, but anybody trying to make a name.
> ....
> I don't think this would be easy to do here!


Right. 18th and 19th century bass-lines as the criterion for a contemporary composition contest just doesn't sound very interesting.


----------



## Majed Al Shamsi

PetrB - Are you being sarcastic..?
I can't even tell.


----------



## PetrB

Majed Al Shamsi said:


> PetrB - Are you being sarcastic..?
> I can't even tell.


Nope. I find the fixed bass line as a basis of a _competition_ piece rather academic, maybe because I would worry more that it might be a badly written 'theme' by someone without much chops, and the more 'academic' approach, an existing bass-line or motif for variations from some piece from the 19th century or earlier, is no more appealing.

There should be no 'town-hall discussion' on the parameters of a contest, i.e. no contestant input, like in real competitions in real life.

Name the parameters, like in real life, and decide to participate or not, like in real life. The submissions are shown as anonymous when put up online, the participants names revealed only when the winner is named -- like in a real life composition contest.

I get the only 'prize' is 'winning,' but the less it is run as above suggested, the more playground / amateurish it becomes.


----------



## musicrom

PetrB said:


> Nope. I find the fixed bass line as a basis of a piece rather academic, maybe because I would worry more that it might be a badly written 'theme' by someone without much chops. The more 'academic' approach, an existing bass-line or motif for variations from some piece from the 19th century or earlier, no more appealing than a current and badly-written subject.
> 
> There should be no 'town-hall discussion' on the parameters of a contest, i.e. no contestant input, like in real competitions in real life.
> 
> Name the parameters, like in real life, and decide to participate or not, like in real life. The submissions are shown as anonymous when put up online, the participants names revealed only when the winner is named -- like in a real life composition contest.
> 
> I get the only 'prize' is 'winning,' but the less it is run as above suggested, the more playground / amateurish it becomes.


The reason I feel a "town hall" style is necessary is that I want as many people competing as possible. Without any prizes, there is no motivation and therefore no guarantee that people will participate. The more people, the more interesting it is, and if I choose an unpopular composition type, nobody will participate.


----------



## Majed Al Shamsi

Yeah. What Musicrom said.

EDIT: In addition, I'd say a bad bass line/motif makes the competition even more interesting.
Participants would really have to give it some serious thought to find a clever way around it, to try to make it sound better.
Playing around with the bass line/motif should also be allowed, so long as it still sounds generally the same.


----------



## PetrB

musicrom said:


> The reason I feel a "town hall" style is necessary is that I want as many people competing as possible. Without any prizes, there is no motivation and therefore no guarantee that people will participate. The more people, the more interesting it is, and if I choose an unpopular composition type, nobody will participate.


It is beyond absurd to allow potential competitors to have any say in what the parameters of the competition are.

Motivation? People _love_ to share their work. Others love the imposed parameters of it, finding that decision already made and out of their hands as an interesting challenge. Many are more than happy to work within imposed deadlines, and find them helpful.

The only incentive worth having is wanting to write. Accepting the given parameters and working within them and to the deadline are also challenging, and good exercise if any of those competing have any dreams of being offered and completing commissions - because that is almost the only way commissions are 

Cajoling any others who might need further incentive or reward in order to write and compete is not necessary: it should be enough to want to write and enter the piece in the competition without further coaxing.

People eager to participate are just that... eager to participate, and nothing else is needed.


----------



## Majed Al Shamsi

PetrB said:


> Cajoling any others who might need further incentive or reward in order to write and compete is not necessary: it should be enough to want to write and enter the piece in the competition without further coaxing.


I think you've missed the point Musicrom was trying to make.
A town hall style was used to create the first competition, and only 6 people participated.
The more contestants, the more interesting the competition.
Perhaps when these competitions become more popular, and more people are eager to participate in them, we could have a competition with fixed parameters.
Until then, though, I don't think it would be a smart idea to set fixed parameters without considering what the very few contestants are able to compose, or are interested in composing.


----------



## PetrB

Majed Al Shamsi said:


> I think you've missed the point Musicrom was trying to make.
> A town hall style was used to create the first competition, and only 6 people participated.
> The more contestants, the more interesting the competition.
> Perhaps when these competitions become more popular, and more people are eager to participate in them, we could have a competition with fixed parameters.
> Until then, though, I don't think it would be a smart idea to set fixed parameters without considering what the very few contestants are able to compose, or are interested in composing.


The parameter for that was a comp for a single-line instrument, the most difficult of pieces to pull off and make _at all_ interesting.

I have little or no interest in single-instrument compositions. (Even though I am normally quite curious about new music, new pieces, and what comps people present in this forum, I did not listen to those pieces, and did not at all 'closely' follow that competition... I did not vote in it either.)

I think the genre was why there were so few takers.

The actual 'first' comp competition I recall was from several years ago -- a piano piece, and there were a fair number of entries.

If you have a form (Sonata, for example) as a parameter, it will attract some and not at all interest others.

I think the only problem with the minimum entrants on this last one was the fact it was for a single-line instrument. [Via PM I found a number of other members, some also composers, who shared my lack of interest in the genre, ergo, that particular competition.]

I think the moment the parameter includes numbers of instruments, say from a trio on up (any combination), or is for solo piano, or any other mixed instrumental forces -- you will find there are more interested parties.



Majed Al Shamsi said:


> *...what the very few contestants are able to compose, or are interested in composing.*


This approach / consideration is like kindergarten, i.e. you are proposing a sort of baby-sit 'see what the tykes can handle' approach.
Sorry, but all 'the market research' has been done, and competitions have been going on for at least one hundred years. So far, there has not been a TC comp competition just for amateurs, or just for beginners, etc. -- If anyone wants to start one of those, and also go through the nightmare of setting 'qualifications to be considered a beginner.' they are welcome to it.


----------



## Majed Al Shamsi

I mean no offence, but I only have your word for it when you say "you will find there are more interested parties."
As far as I know, the previous series of competitions ended prematurely, and not on good terms.
Do you think it would be a good idea if we started a poll to see what kind of competition most members of TC would be interested in?


----------



## PetrB

Majed Al Shamsi said:


> I mean no offence, but I only have your word for it when you say "you will find there are more interested parties."
> *You really have to announce the competition and simply wait and see how many are interested, it will always vary, no matter what.*
> As far as I know, the previous series of competitions ended prematurely, and not on good terms.
> *You would have to point those out to me. The one I do remember, "solo piano piece," was run very well, professional-like, and went off without a hitch. -- That one did not have so many competitors, either.*
> *ADD: My apology, that too was a nest of town-hall sorting out (all the same stuff, btw -- those who do not know history are ____ _
> http://www.talkclassical.com/20828-tc-composers-competition.html*
> Do you think it would be a good idea if we started a poll to see what kind of competition most members of TC would be interested in?
> *I think that is a horrid idea.*


You are unaware of how competitions go, pure and simple.

The competitors here are a widely varied bunch, by age, with some having no training, others auto-didact, and of wide variance of degree of practice at the craft. Even with the competitions which limit entrants by their age (many a competition is open to those who have not yet reached a certain age by the date of submission,) _such is the usual crowd of entrants._

Competitions are typically for a designated instrument, or instruments. Some will be for a particular instrumental family (brass, say) or a standard ensemble (piano quartet), others will be for a more unusual combination of instruments, and some will as well have other technical parameters, i.e. that it be contrapuntal, or a particular form. I can not think of one which did not specify a particular duration (length.)
No "research" or feedback from potential competitors is needed.

I imagine on this forum, there will never be a great number of contestants for any particular competition. Not so many compose in earnest, or feel advanced enough to compete; others have no interest in competing even if they are 'advanced.'

You have to announce the competition, the deadline (many official competitions have a more realistic deadline of three or more months -- which I think on TC requires a patience which will not generally be found and "see who shows up."

Other than that, if you are writing, write what you can and what you want, and if you want to show it, want general reactions to the piece or want more specific feedback about the piece, post it in the _Today's Composers_ category.

No competition really worth entering has ever 'polled the potential competitors' to ask them 'what they want.' _You announce the competition, the instrument(s), duration, and any technical parameters, contrapuntal, or form, for example, and then wait and see who shows up._


----------



## Majed Al Shamsi

My apologies. I should have been clearer.
When I mentioned the poll, I did not mean a poll with options of instruments or forms. I meant a poll with two options, one that reads: Fixed parameters competitions, and another that reads: Town hall style competitions.

With that being said, I'll have you know that I'm fully aware of how competitions go, 'in real life'.
Allow me to welcome you to the internet and the virtual world. It comes with certain advantages and disadvantages when compared to real life, but that is what you would expect.
It's easier to get in touch with potential participants on the internet than it is in real life. Shouldn't we take advantage of that? Where's the harm?

The rest of your last comment is either irrelevant, like this part:



> Other than that, if you are writing, write what you can and what you want, and if you want to show it, want general reactions to the piece or want more specific feedback about the piece, post it in the Today's Composers category.


or in reply to my previous comment, which wasn't very clear, and therefore misunderstood.


----------



## Matsps

If you want to compose a melody over a bassline, then take some of the higher grade music theory exams.


----------



## PetrB

Majed Al Shamsi said:


> My apologies. I should have been clearer.
> When I mentioned the poll, I did not mean a poll with options of instruments or forms. I meant a poll with two options, one that reads: Fixed parameters competitions, and another that reads: Town hall style competitions.
> 
> With that being said, I'll have you know that I'm fully aware of how competitions go, 'in real life'.
> Allow me to welcome you to the internet and the virtual world. It comes with certain advantages and disadvantages when compared to real life, but that is what you would expect.
> It's easier to get in touch with potential participants on the internet than it is in real life. Shouldn't we take advantage of that? Where's the harm?


Allow me to welcome you to the reality of the internet, TC, and composer's competitions....

Found it, http://www.talkclassical.com/20828-tc-composers-competition.html making nearly all of this thread to date, and possibly for the next contributions through the next nine pages' worth -- a _déjà vu,_ or, as Yogi Berra said, "Its like déjà vu all over again!"

Please note, that after 'all that' I think the number of contestants _just soared_ to the number of between six and eight participants 

Best regards.


----------



## Aramis

I suggest that the contest should be for writing opera and the roles in winning work should be casted, then recorded by non-awarded participants. All will have to sign obligation to take part in it if they don't win as they submit their works.


----------



## musicrom

I had an idea that I thought might be interesting. What do you guys think of a Variations on a Theme contest, where I might list 5 or so composers, and the goal is to write variations on any theme of any of those 5 composers?


----------



## Vasks

musicrom said:


> I had an idea that I thought might be interesting. What do you guys think of a Variations on a Theme contest, where I might list 5 or so composers, and the goal is to write variations on any theme of any of those 5 composers?


Eh, no thanks. I think everyone should work with the same theme.


----------



## KenOC

Vasks said:


> Eh, no thanks. I think everyone should work with the same theme.


Diabelli had a similar opinion. Worked for him.


----------



## PetrB

musicrom said:


> I had an idea that I thought might be interesting. What do you guys think of a Variations on a Theme contest, where I might list 5 or so composers, and the goal is to write variations on any theme of any of those 5 composers?


Sigh. 
*It is a competition, supposedly.* Whatever the criteria, they must be the same for all, not "One of five different themes or bass-lines as a basis for variations." If you had five different options, you are then running five different competitions, with five separate judging rounds for each.


----------



## musicrom

Just in case you guys didn't realize, Crudblud started a composition contest here: http://www.talkclassical.com/32269-competition-piano-violin.html

and that's what we're doing this month.


----------

