# Brahms 4 vs Brahms 1



## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

Which of these great Brahms symphonies do you prefer? And why?


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

4th - one of my favorite symphonies by anyone, in fact.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Easypeasy.
4 > 3 > 2 > 1 for me.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Aarrghh, don’t make me choose between the Brahms symphonies! Would you make a parent choose between their children? I suppose, gun to the head, it’s the 4th for its inexorably dark, rich tragedy.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I know technically the 4th is better than the 1st, but I understand the 1st better, so that's my choice.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> Easypeasy.
> 4 > 3 > 2 > 1 for me.


I'm with you, Arty, but it's closer than it looks. 4 and 3 swap places on a regular basis.


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## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

Merl said:


> I'm with you, Arty, but it's closer than it looks. 4 and 3 swap places on a regular basis.


Same with me.
4-3-2-1 or 3-4-2-1 depending on the day.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

3 - 4 - 1 - 2 for me


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Brahms 1 for me. I think it's my second favorite of the four, after the 2nd. For some reason, I'm not too big on the 4th, lately. I think I need to hear a recording that absolutely blows me away.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

The 4th. The 1st is too overtly Beethovenish.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

consuono said:


> The 4th. The 1st is too overtly Beethovenish.


In the 4th movement, yes. But the rhythmic drive of the first movement is wonderful, the way it builds so powerfully.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> In the 4th movement, yes. But the rhythmic drive of the first movement is wonderful, the way it builds so powerfully.


I agree, I love his 1st as well. I'm just speaking comparatively. I probably should've added that in the original comment to soften it a little. Even so I also love the finale of the 1st.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Let me play with words. For me, Brahms 1 is “a great symphony” and Brahms 4 is “one of the best symphonies.”


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

4 (especially the slow movement)
1 (especially the third movement)
2 (especially the slow movement)
3 (especially the finale)


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

flamencosketches said:


> Brahms 1 for me. I think it's my second favorite of the four, after the 2nd. For some reason, I'm not too big on the 4th, lately. I think I need to hear a recording that absolutely blows me away.


Everybody will make their own suggestions, but I say try Kleiber.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

consuono said:


> The 4th. The 1st is too overtly Beethovenish.


The only thing in common with Beethoven to my ears is the "Ode to Joy" influenced theme in the finale ("any a** can see that!") Certainly Brahms wrote in the shadow of Beethoven (which is why he took 20+ years to write it; he was so haunted by the spirit of his great predecessor) but I think the result is a triumph of originality and invention. Beethoven would never have written the quintessentially Brahmsian clarinet theme in the third movement.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

jegreenwood said:


> Everybody will make their own suggestions, but I say try Kleiber.


Yes, I ought to. I love all the Kleiber/Vienna recordings that I've heard; Beethoven 5 & 7, Schubert 3 & 8.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The only thing in common with Beethoven to my ears is the "Ode to Joy" influenced theme in the finale ("any a** can see that!") Certainly Brahms wrote in the shadow of Beethoven (which is why he took 20+ years to write it; he was so haunted by the spirit of his great predecessor) but I think the result is a triumph of originality and invention. Beethoven would never have written the quintessentially Brahmsian clarinet theme in the third movement.


I'll put it this way: some features in Shostakovich's 24 preludes and fugues would probably have never been done by Bach, but yet the whole set is still "Bachian". And hey, I love the Shostakovich set. I love his second cello concerto and tenth symphony a little more.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> Yes, I ought to. I love all the Kleiber/Vienna recordings that I've heard; Beethoven 5 & 7, Schubert 3 & 8.


Well, for me, his Brahms 4th is the piece he owns. I don't think that way about the other symphonies you brought up, though the Beethoven 4th (live) edges out the other symphonies as well.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

In the same way that favoring Mahler 1 or Sibelius 1 above the composer's others is a respectable opinion since those composers also arrived, more or less, fully matured into the symphonic genre I understand the possibility of preferring Brahms 1 for purely aesthetic reasons. I don't think it's a terribly fair comparison, however, because one is clearly superior in the same way that Sibelius 7 is clearly superior to Sibelius 1 even if you don't like 7.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

bz3 said:


> .....because one is clearly superior in the same way that Sibelius 7 is clearly superior to Sibelius 1 even if you don't like 7.


Baloney....I like Sibelius #7, fine piece; but Sibelius #1 is even better, I love it and prefer it to #7....


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

consuono said:


> I'll put it this way: some features in Shostakovich's 24 preludes and fugues would probably have never been done by Bach, but yet the whole set is still "Bachian". And hey, I love the Shostakovich set. I love his second cello concerto and tenth symphony a little more.


Yes, but you said 'overtly Beethovenish', and I too must disagree with this. I think Brahms 1 inhabits a completely different sound world than any of the Beethoven symphonies.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Neither, it's always 2 or 3 in Chez Penfold. 1 is overwrought and 4 is dull. Except the scherzo :lol:


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

bz3 said:


> In the same way that favoring Mahler 1 or Sibelius 1 above the composer's others is a respectable opinion since those composers also arrived, more or less, fully matured into the symphonic genre I understand the possibility of preferring Brahms 1 for purely aesthetic reasons. I don't think it's a terribly fair comparison, however, because one is clearly superior in the same way that Sibelius 7 is clearly superior to Sibelius 1 even if you don't like 7.


I agree that 7 is infinitely better than 1, but Sibelius 1 is another example of a first symphony that is often seen as being dominated by the shadow of a predecessor - in this case, Tchaikovsky. I think that's hugely inaccurate as well. The opening minute with nothing but the solo clarinet playing is absolutely striking, the second movement has a distinctly Nordic spirit than is seen nowhere in Tchaikovsky, and the form of the finale is, IMO, more coherent than any of Tchaikovsky's symphonic movements save the 1st mvmt of the 6th. Certainly a masterpiece in its own right.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I prefer Sibelius 1 to 7, but will acknowledge 7 is likely the 'greater' work. 'Infinitely' better I think is over stating things a little.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

tdc said:


> Yes, but you said 'overtly Beethovenish', ...


Compared to the 4th, or even the 2nd and 3rd, it is.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 for me


Same here, usually, but if Furtwangler is conducting 1 it can move up. Unless he's also conducting 4. Or...


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Same here, usually, but if Furtwangler is conducting 1 it can move up. Unless he's also conducting 4. Or...


If Furtwängler is conducting it's a tossup. Any of the four of his best performances (1951, 1945, 1954, 1949) could qualify as the best Brahms symphony recording I know.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

3rd Kempe/Berlin Philharmonic and Tennstedt/London Philharmonic
1st Van Beinum/Amsterdam (Royal) Concertgebouw and Klemperer/Philharmonia Orchestra
4th Van Beinum/Amsterdam (Royal) Concertgebouw and Walter/Columbia Symphony
2nd Walter/New York Philharmonic (mono) and Kertesz/London Symphony


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## The3Bs (Apr 1, 2020)

Uau! I thought this was just a comparison between the 4rth and the 1st...

I *like* all of Brahms symphonies as well but between the 1st and the 4th, chez The3Bs', it is the 4th hands down.. 
To my hears the 1st is a grandeur work that appeals to the Romantic heroism but he 4rth grows another dimension and appeals to our soul....


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Not going to attempt to rank them in musicological terms (which often turns out to be a thinly disguised personal preference list anyway). In terms of simple enjoyment for me, 3 by a long way >1>2>4.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Heck148 said:


> Baloney....I like Sibelius #7, fine piece; but Sibelius #1 is even better, I love it and prefer it to #7....


Perhaps you have selective dyslexia and missed the part in my post where I said it's perfectly defensible to prefer Brahms 1 on aesthetic grounds. It is a masterpiece of the genre as well, after all. But it's still not superior. I prefer Mozart's Prague symphony to the Jupiter - the Jupiter is still superior.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

bz3 said:


> Perhaps you have selective dyslexia and missed the part in my post where I said it's perfectly defensible to prefer Brahms 1 on aesthetic grounds. It is a masterpiece of the genre as well, after all. But it's still not superior. I prefer Mozart's Prague symphony to the Jupiter - the Jupiter is still superior.


I prefer Mozart's Haffner symphony to either of those. It's superior. :lol:


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

bz3 said:


> Perhaps you have selective dyslexia and missed the part in my post where I said it's perfectly defensible to prefer Brahms 1 on aesthetic grounds. It is a masterpiece of the genre as well, after all. But it's still not superior. I prefer Mozart's Prague symphony to the Jupiter - the Jupiter is still superior.


The ones I prefer are superior (to me anyway)...that's what counts.


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