# Scarlatti



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Would people say D.Scarlatti was ahead of his time? When I listen to some of his harmonies and invention I do wonder if he had hit a golden vein of compositions that if he hadn't struck first someone else would.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I don't know about other folks here, but if I've listened to 5-6 consecutive Scarlatti sonatas, it's quite enough.

Too much of a good thing perhaps.

All I know is Scarlatti sounds so much better on the harpsichord than on the modern piano.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

This is a rare occasion when I differ from hpowders. I like Scarlatti on just about anything, including accordion, though synthesizer is still my favorite if handled with taste. 

I think Scarlatti liked to modulate a LOT. Some of his sonatas modulate so rapidly in their second half it leaves me wonderfully bewildered. I wonder if this is the harmonies ahead of his time beetzart is noticing? 

On the other hand, there is a passage in one of the Beethoven sonatas (and confound it, I can't for the life of me remember which) that sounds so much like Scarlatti I wonder if Beethoven was familiar with him. Whichever it is, it's very un-Beethoven-like, using the great octave and fifth leaps and some of the modulations, and is slightly Spanish sounding similar to Scarlatti. So maybe in that respect Scarlatti was indeed ahead of his time. He was certainly out in left field compared to his contemporaries.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The music can sound not very human, as if it's just about superficial effects.

However, this may be exacerbated by performers' styles. The selection matters too - the very late sonatas are emotionally deeper than the earlier ones. 

I've enjoyed Leonhardt's Scarlatti on DHM, for example. Leonhardt makes it sound very humane music on that recording. I found Vartolo's ideas about Scarlatti quite inspiring, ideas about nobility and melancholy. Vartolo's execution is more problematic. 

Before I encountered Leonhardt's recordings, I didn't think he was a top notch composer. I thought the music wasn't as interesting emotionally, affectively, as Louis Couperin's for example, or Frescobaldi's or J S Bach's. 

Leonhardt shows that he may well be the best Italian keyboard composer after Frescobali though. That says something about the poverty of Italian music.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> That says something about the poverty of Italian music.


I can't believe that I just read that.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hocket said:


> I can't believe that I just read that.


Ok let me finesse it.

It says something about the poverty of Italian baroque keyboard music after Frescobaldi. Even before Frescobaldi there ain't much to excited about -- Andrea Gabrieli and Giovanni De Macque (not really Italian of course) maybe. Frescobaldi's the king, and he inspired some wonderful music written by Germans, Brits, French, Dutch . . .


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> Ok let me finesse it.
> 
> It says something about the poverty of Italian baroque keyboard music after Frescobaldi. Even before Frescobaldi there ain't much to excited about -- Andrea Gabrieli and Giovanni De Macque (not really Italian of course) maybe. Frescobaldi's the king, and he inspired some wonderful music written by Germans, Brits, French, Dutch . . .


Merulo, Poglietti, Stradella, Pasquini, Alessandro Scarlatti, Galuppi, Durante, Martini, Cimarosa, Muzio Clementi, Cherubini?

Even confined to just keyboard music (and I do get where you're coming from in spite of my incredulity) I suspect you're underestimating just how significant Italian music was. Poglietti alone has got to be seen as a pretty big deal in baroque keyboard.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Mandryka said:


> . . . The selection matters too - the very late sonatas are emotionally deeper than the earlier ones.


That brings to mind the question, which of the catalog numbering systems is chronological? Most performances go by the Kirkpatrick(?) numbering system, but I think this is arranged in no particular order that makes snese to me.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hocket said:


> Merulo, Poglietti, Stradella, Pasquini, Alessandro Scarlatti, Galuppi, Durante, Martini, Cimarosa, Muzio Clementi, Cherubini?
> 
> Even confined to just keyboard music (and I do get where you're coming from in spite of my incredulity) I suspect you're underestimating just how significant Italian music was. Poglietti alone has got to be seen as a pretty big deal in baroque keyboard.


Suggest something for me to listen to. I have Alessandrini's three CD set, and his Alessandro Scarlatti toccatas CD (don't like the music, sorry, too busy.) I also have access to spotify. One Italian composer I would like to get to know better for sure is Trebaci.

I feel equally negative about Spanish music, by the way, with the exception of Arauxo.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Weston said:


> That brings to mind the question, which of the catalog numbering systems is chronological? Most performances go by the Kirkpatrick(?) numbering system, but I think this is arranged in no particular order that makes snese to me.


Kirkpatrick says it's chronological I think, though I believe that it's controversial. The later sonatas are less stuffed with virtuoso music because the princess he was writing for got too fat to cross her hands.


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

Scarlatti clearly created a unique keyboard literature that palpitates with life. I've always enjoyed him in the hands of Horowitz.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> Suggest something for me to listen to. I have Alessandrini's three CD set, and his Alessandro Scarlatti toccatas CD (don't like the music, sorry, too busy.)


I'm sure I'm far from the best person to make recommendations for keyboard, but I enjoyed these -maybe you will too.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

I think D. Scarlatti is brilliant. Always very inventive sounding music. Chopin also adored him too.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

hocket said:


> I can't believe that I just read that.


There are some quite consistent inadvertent sources of comedy to be found on internet fora


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## Jos (Oct 14, 2013)

I love Scarlatti on harpsichord, but played on piano I would suggest Christian Zacharias.
This one is in danger of "death by overfamiliarity" !  Well recommended !

Cheers,
Jos

View attachment 40257


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hocket said:


> I'm sure I'm far from the best person to make recommendations for keyboard, but I enjoyed these -maybe you will too.
> View attachment 40237
> View attachment 40235
> View attachment 40236


Thanks. I will definitely explore Poglietti. I have heard Loreggian's Pasquini CD but I don't really enjoy the way he plays the music very much.

I've had more pleasure from della Ciaja, partly because the music is so unique, sui generis. Recently a friend recommended Girolamo Cavazzoni's organ music, which I must revisit - my first impression was that it was really well made, maybe not totally inspired. But I could be wrong.

One compilation CD I've quite enjoyed is Parmentier's selection.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Weston said:


> This is a rare occasion when I differ from hpowders. I like Scarlatti on just about anything, including accordion, though synthesizer is still my favorite if handled with taste.
> 
> I think Scarlatti liked to modulate a LOT. Some of his sonatas modulate so rapidly in their second half it leaves me wonderfully bewildered. I wonder if this is the harmonies ahead of his time beetzart is noticing?
> 
> On the other hand, there is a passage in one of the Beethoven sonatas (and confound it, I can't for the life of me remember which) that sounds so much like Scarlatti I wonder if Beethoven was familiar with him. Whichever it is, it's very un-Beethoven-like, using the great octave and fifth leaps and some of the modulations, and is slightly Spanish sounding similar to Scarlatti. So maybe in that respect Scarlatti was indeed ahead of his time. He was certainly out in left field compared to his contemporaries.


Some of those sonatas, in my opinion, are simply too dazzling; not enough development for these ears. Lacking in "substance".

I am glad, however, that you enjoy them.

Plenty of music to go around for everybody.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

hpowders said:


> Some of those sonatas, in my opinion, are simply too dazzling; not enough development for these ears. Lacking in "substance".


But that makes them pithy!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Weston said:


> But that makes them pithy!


Listen to any Haydn London Symphony finale.

There's pithy and then there's genius pithy.

If you like Scarlatti, you will get no argument from me:

No cursing.

No name calling.

No multi-paragraph doctoral dissertions to persuade you that you are wrong.

Simply, enjoy whatever you love to listen to.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

The absolute genius level of pithy is the second movement of the Moonlight sonata.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

shangoyal said:


> The absolute genius level of pithy is the second movement of the Moonlight sonata.


There are many fine pithy examples. Haydn is my favorite composer because he can say in 4 minutes what Mahler says in 75.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> I love Scarlatti on harpsichord, but played on piano I would suggest Christian Zacharias.
> This one is in danger of "death by overfamiliarity" !  Well recommended !
> 
> Cheers,
> ...


Absolutely. My most essential / Desert Island Scarlatti set would be this 2 cd collection:










...which is currently available as part of this 4cd box:


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## Rhythm (Nov 2, 2013)

In this audio, Mikhail Pletnev played 31 Scarlatti Sonatas on the piano. I favor K 113, which he played Allegrissimo with verve . Mr. Pletnev plays with a certain aggressiveness that I've preferred.

You'll see several of his Scarlatti CDs at Amazon.






0:00:00 ➢ K. 443
0:04:51 ➢ K. 1
0:07:03 ➢ K. 283
0:11:49 ➢ K. 284
0:13:46 ➢ K. 27
0:17:27 ➢ K. 380
0:23:11 ➢ K. 24
0:28:04 ➢ K. 247
0:35:36 ➢ K. 519
0:38:49 ➢ K. 17
0:43:15 ➢ K. 9
0:47:15 ➢ K. 3
0:50:25 ➢ K. 404
0:59:17 ➢ K. 213
1:06:57 ➢ K. 214
1:11:18 ➢ K. 96
1:16:13 ➢ K. 146
1:19:27 ➢ K. 87
1:26:30 ➢ K. 520
1:30:56 ➢ K. 11
1:34:17 ➢ K. 386
1:36:44 ➢ K. 387
1:39:17 ➢ K. 268
1:43:58 ➢ K. 141
1:47:23 ➢ K. 113
1:51:03 ➢ K. 25
1:56:57 ➢ K. 173
2:02:23 ➢ K. 523
2:05:00 ➢ K. 8
2:09:52 ➢ K. 259
2:13:58 ➢ K. 29​


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

beetzart said:


> Would people say D.Scarlatti was ahead of his time? When I listen to some of his harmonies and invention I do wonder if he had hit a golden vein of compositions that if he hadn't struck first someone else would.


Why don't you try writing 500 pus original sonatas and see if you can come up with as original. I know I cannot at the best of my days.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Can anyone recommend a recording of some sonatas on organ?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> Why don't you try writing 500 pus original sonatas and see if you can come up with as original. I know I cannot at the best of my days.


Even though this is true, the formula, to me at least, proves tiresome and repetitive after a while.

If we on TC are to be judged by our being able to compose and match the great masters as a prerequisite to being able to post on TC, they might as well close TC down and we can all simply go home.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Rhythm said:


> In this audio, Mikhail Pletnev played 31 Scarlatti Sonatas on the piano. I favor K 113, which he played Allegrissimo with verve . Mr. Pletnev plays with a certain aggressiveness that I've preferred.
> 
> You'll see several of his Scarlatti CDs at Amazon.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I really loved this post. Listened to the whole thing.
I love Scarlatti.


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## Rhythm (Nov 2, 2013)

Itullian said:


> Thank you. I really loved this post. Listened to the whole thing.
> I love Scarlatti.


You're Welcome, Itullian! I love Scarlatti, too  !


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