# Going deeper into opera and classical music



## Tehzim (May 19, 2013)

I'm trying to go to the next level in my opera understanding but I feel hindered by a lack of education on music. For instance, why is one conductor better than another? For example what makes Furtwangler idiosyncratic and Solti so revered? Is it just tempo and emphasizing different parts of the orchestra? Is the quality of singing just based on one's enjoyment of a performance or performer? What makes Salome or Tristan and Isolde so radical?

What are some good ways to learn more about these sorts of things? I've built quite a nice little collection of opera over the past year and I want to be able to appreciate it more fully. If there's another thread let me know, I wasn't sure what to search for.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Unfortunately there are no shortcuts for attaining the discernment - whether inspired or flawed - that allows opera lovers or music lovers in general to consider a conductor or a singer to be exalted among his or her peers. I suppose you could read opera criticism and Grammophone reviews from their archive. But there is no short way to appreciation. You must drench yourself in opera, I say, for this to be granted to you. And even then you cannot be sure you have true discernment or just an opinion with an explanation.

Try this, however: listen to the following disc of excerpts from Wagner conducted by Furtwangler. Then seek out versions of the same numbers conducted by others. Also, listen to the Liebestod as sung by someone like Flagstad or by Nilsson at their peak, or close to it. Then listen to the same as sung by others. You will at least notice the difference. You may not be able to explain what "gets you" in musicological or technical terms perhaps, but you will know. Oh yes. You will know.


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## Tehzim (May 19, 2013)

Thanks. I'll try that. What wonderful practice it will be!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

like Revenant says, listen to a lot of stuff. Unless your goal is to become a musicologist or a music critic don't worry too much about having "the right" opinion. See what works for you. There'll always be somebody who disagrees


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

deggial said:


> Unless your goal is to become a musicologist or a music critic don't worry too much about having "the right" opinion


I agree - if you don't aspire to be musicologist or a music critic, you can feel free to have it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Aramis said:


> I agree - if you don't aspire to be musicologist or a music critic, you can feel free to have it.


And let's face it, these people often differ widely in their opinions, so who cares who is 'right'?

It's what pushes your buttons that matters.


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## Tehzim (May 19, 2013)

Is this the same as the disc above? 








This also looks like a good item what with all the different conductors.








Thoughts?


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

Revenant said:


> Try this, however: listen to the following disc of excerpts from Wagner conducted by Furtwangler. Then seek out versions of the same numbers conducted by others. Also, listen to the Liebestod as sung by someone like Flagstad or by Nilsson at their peak, or close to it. Then listen to the same as sung by others. You will at least notice the difference. You may not be able to explain what "gets you" in musicological or technical terms perhaps, but you will know. Oh yes. You will know.


And, hint: The result of that test is _not_ necessarily that you'll prefer the "big" Isoldes …


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Some things take years. I have been into opera for 40 years but have never been as into the different conductor's take on different operas until of late. There is so much to learn. It has so many more layers than much of popular music. You may enjoy the 13 intros to opera singers I did on Youtube. Here is the one on Joan Sutherland:


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Tehzim said:


> Is this the same as the disc above?
> View attachment 31859
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> 
> ...


"The One Above" is non-vocal I think.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I got big into instrumental orchestral music before getting into opera. I definitely had opinions on different conductors for different composers/pieces and even got into how much a conductors approach could vary with time and so on.

I have focused on opera for the past three or so years (and have been listening for longer than that) and still am at a bit of a loss with regards to conductors. There is so much going on with different productions and directors, different ensembles and singers and so much else to pay attention to. And a lot of operatic conducting is working with those singers and the balance and getting everything to blend. If something is off it could be any of a number of issues (including inadequate rehearsal time).

Plus operas are much longer than symphonies and concertos; there's a lot more to learn and understand before you have the footing to really judge different approaches.


So if I were to approach this I might focus on just a couple operas, listening to as many different performances as I can, especially multiple performances from a single conductor. Another option would be to focus conductor-searching on instrumental music, again picking a few pieces to work with. Either way the goal is just getting used to what you're listening for, the kind of changes you can expect. You don't want to come away with the idea that ____ is great and _____ is bad because, again, that will vary with time and within rep.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Tehzim said:


> Is this the same as the disc above?
> View attachment 31859
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> 
> ...


I have both of them. Both are great. The Furtwangler I displayed is an earlier edition, but the one you have is perfect too for the purpose. You can't beat the price of the Wagner's Vision compilation, and it has some classic or at least very good live recordings, if you don't mind beginning with live recordings as opposed to the usually sharper studio recordings for first time listening.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

moody said:


> "The One Above" is non-vocal I think.


That Furtwangler disc contains Flagstad singing the Liebestod, but I recommended it on the basis of the OP's interest in the conductor.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tehzim said:


> Is this the same as the disc above?
> View attachment 31859
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> 
> ...


The 'Vision' consists of mainly elderly recordings. The one really outstanding one is Karajan's Tristan from 1952 but some transfers are problematic.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Judging performances and recordings by different conductors, opera singers, instrumentalists,etc,
is a highly subjective thing . Different listeners and critics react in totally different ways to the same
live performance or recording ,not to mention operas or orchestral works etc.
The important thing is to listen carrefully and make up your own mind ! 
One critic in a review might blast a conductor or opera singer's performance of this or that work,
yet you might love that recording ! 
Some of this is due to the recordings you get to know certain works by . You tend to get accustomed to that
recording, and then when you hear others, you may not like them as much . But there is no one right way to
perform this or that opera , orchestral work etc . 
Eventually, with more and more listening, you will become more open to different ways of performing music,'
and be able to admire different performers in the same work .
This is the way my listening has develoved over the years , and I have nearly 50 years of listening experience,
ever since I was just a kid , discovered classical music and became a rabid fan .
Furtwangler, Toscanini, Karajan, Solti, Beecham , Monteux, Boehm, Klemperer, Walter, Colin Davis, Sawallisch,
Knappertsbusch, Carols Kleiber, Reiner, Szell, Munch, Mitropoulos , De Sabata, Ansermet, 
Giulini, Jochum, Kempe, Kubelik, Leinsdorf, Barbirolli, etc; all very great conductors, each great in his own way .
Nilsson, Flagstad, Callas, Tebaldi, Corelli, Bergonzi, Fischer-Dieskay,Gobbi, Melchior, Ghiaurov, Talvela,
Siepi, Ludwig, De Los Angeles, Crespin, Rysanek, to name only a handful of great singers, each great in his
or her own way .


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> So if I were to approach this I might focus on just a couple operas, listening to as many different performances as I can, especially multiple performances from a single conductor.


I agree. I think the better you know an opera and the more you develop your own idea about what it is about and what it should sound like for you, the easier it will be to find approaches that you like. And after you found those performances that satisfy you and have listened to them to death you can move on to other takes on the same opera, like superhorn says  time consuming!


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