# Strauss vs Wagner



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Tough choice, even for me!


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Between those, the Strauss.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Strauss: Four Last Songs hands down.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Indeed, no contest. If it had been a comparison of the composers, Wagner. But while the Wesendonklieder are good, the Vier Letzte Lieder are superb.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

No contest - Strauss


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Wagner overall, but yes, Strauss for the songs.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Not sure how fair this poll is, pitting one of Strauss's best and most significant works with one of Wagner's least. Anyway I do really enjoy the Wesendoncklieder but had to give it to Strauss here.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Well this was a blowout


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Strauss' _Four Last Songs_ are exceedingly beautiful, but also quite fitting as the composer's final statement. Strauss began as a Romantic, but around the turn of the 20th century, his big, flashy tone poems and racy operas were hailed as "The Music of the Future".

But then, in 1948, after World War II, and on into the atomic age, when composers such as Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Webern, Messiaen, and Varese, were ushering in new systems of music-making that make even the most daring works of Strauss look by-and-large Late Romantic; Richard Strauss, now an old man, goes full-circle and produces one last burst of beautiful music that harks back to Schubert and Schumann, sunshine and flowers.

The man who was supposed to represent the "Music of the Future" ends up becoming the "Last Romantic".

I find that fascinating, unless I have a tendency to read to much into things.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I find it interesting that Pierre Boulez' _Second Piano Sonata_ was completed *before* Strauss' _Four Last Songs._


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> I find it interesting that Pierre Boulez' _Second Piano Sonata_ was completed *before* Strauss' _Four Last Songs._


And your point caller?

It's Strauss v Wagner, not Boulez v Strauss. Yikes.

With regard to your comment I would suggest that the reason he completed it first was because he started it first. Either that or he started it after and wrote quicker or - wait a minute, I don't care.

To answer the OP, I wouldn't care to exclude either from my catalogue. Both of them have their place when the mood is right.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Roflmao @ couchies picture


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Barbebleu said:


> And your point caller?
> 
> It's Strauss v Wagner, not Boulez v Strauss. Yikes.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you're reading into Million's post, but I am sure he didn't intend it as a contest between the Boulez & the Strauss works. It seems he merely finds fascination that such a hardcore modern work could have been written before Strauss's pungently romantic swan-song, as do I-the late-Romantic and the Modern eras of music share a lot more overlap of time than we commonly realize.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

What do you think he did intend with his post? To add to the discussion of the relative merits of the two song cycles? Perhaps. To derail the thread? Perhaps. But like this post it added nothing to the debate.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Barbebleu said:


> What do you think he did intend with his post? To add to the discussion of the relative merits of the two song cycles? Perhaps. To derail the thread? Perhaps. But like this post it added nothing to the debate.


He can speak for himself, of course, but I don't see it as a malicious post in any way. It's just a fun fact to think about. It could be said that Wagner's Wesendonck-Lieder & Strauss's Vier letzte Lieder are comparable works in many ways, but some might not realize that there is a separation of almost 90 years between their dates of composition, and it's interesting to think about all that came in that timespan. This includes plenty of ripe late-Romantic music, and plenty of Modern avant-garde music as extreme as Boulez or more so. There are numerous conclusions to be drawn from this. I wouldn't say it adds nothing to the debate.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Coach G said:


> The man who was supposed to represent the "Music of the Future" ends up becoming the "Last Romantic."


Ends up? I'd say he was already well on his way to that as early as _Der Rosenkavalier_.


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## ZeR0 (Apr 7, 2020)

I ultimately had to go with Strauss. However, after listening to the works again the choice was much tougher than I initially figured it would be.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> *And your point caller?
> 
> It's Strauss v Wagner, not Boulez v Strauss.* *Yikes. *


_*YIKES* _yerself. It's an interesting point, whether or not an OCD version of 'on topic' was adhered to or not.



> With regard to your comment I would suggest that the reason he completed it first was because he started it first. Either that or he started it after and wrote quicker or - wait a minute, I don't care.


And the point?

My point: The _Four Last Songs_ could be considered the apotheosis of Classicism, while Boulez' _Second Piano Sonata_ was an attempt to consciously and deliberately destroy Classicism by using its own methods against itself.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

And that relates to the relative merits of the Vier Letzte Lieder v the Wesendonck lieder how MR? 

For you it is an interesting point, for me not so much, given that I have heard the VLL and the WL but not the Boulez. If I had then I might have been happy to discuss this on an appropriate thread.

You see where I’m going with this?

I might even start such a thread. Boulez and his quest to destroy classicism. Mind you, I have nothing to contribute to such a thread so perhaps not. 

See, now you’ve got me going wildly off-topic too.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Seeing the title of this thread - Strauss vs. Wagner - I came here ready to vote for Wagner hands down. But in a contest between these two works my vote had to go the other way.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> And that relates to the relative merits of the Vier Letzte Lieder v the Wesendonck lieder how MR?


 Just as I explained. R. Strauss and Wagner both represent the apotheosis of CP Classicism, and Boulez' Sonata 2 represents its antithesis.



> For you it is an interesting point, for me not so much, given that I have heard the VLL and the WL but not the Boulez. If I had then I might have been happy to discuss this on an appropriate thread. You see where I'm going with this?


Yes; into control-freak territory. It was just an innocuous comment which you should have just let pass. It's not as if I had been attempting to drive the thread off-topic.

But, _noo,_ you used it as an opportunity to get in a jab at me because apparently you don't like me. That's your right, you are entitled to your opinion, but...don't invalidate me and my comment for driving this thread off-topic.

We could have been so good together. Sigh... 

Back on topic: I like the Four Last Songs better, but I have the Wesendonck lieder by Wagner on a Sony CD, ironically conducted by...Boulez!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> I find it interesting that Pierre Boulez' _Second Piano Sonata_ was completed *before* Strauss' _Four Last Songs._


Well, I found that telling. There was a period in the middle of the last century when music we might still consider avant garde rubbed shoulder with the last gasps (and what glorious gasps!) of high Romanticism. But perhaps "rubbed shoulders" is too friendly a description of how they coexisted. By the 1930s many considered Strauss to be just too old fashioned. Klemperer, for example, wouldn't conduct him (a position he dropped for the Metamorphosen). Times moved very fast in the years 1900 - 1950: Strauss was seen as something of a radical at the start of that period.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

R. Strauss 'old fashioned'? As a contrast, I would think that Boulez really deserved more criticism, because his aesthetic was a _deliberate _destruction of the Classical model. He said art should be "irrational" and like a "frenzy" or convulsion. Oh dear, there I've gone and done it, talking about Boulez. But if you are a classicist, you should really _resent_ what Boulez was doing in the Second Sonata.

I think a look at Strauss' _Elektra_ and _Metamorphosen_ reveal him to be a more modern thinker than he turned out to be by the time of the _Four Last Songs_ and the _Oboe Concerto,_ which were retreats back into a Classical conservatism. 
If he had kept going in the Elektra direction, maybe he would have sounded almost as radical as Boulez. But Strauss would never, ever turn his back on the old tradition. By this time, he was older, and there was no way to deny his roots.

Had Wagner already covered the ground of tonality to its completion, long before Strauss? Perhaps. Or perhaps Strauss went further up to the abyss in Elektra, didn't like what he saw, and turned back.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> Well, I found that telling. There was a period in the middle of the last century when music we might still consider avant garde rubbed shoulder with the last gasps (and what glorious gasps!) of high Romanticism. But perhaps "rubbed shoulders" is too friendly a description of how they coexisted. By the 1930s many considered Strauss to be just too old fashioned. *Klemperer, for example, wouldn't conduct him (a position he dropped for the Metamorphosen). *Times moved very fast in the years 1900 - 1950: Strauss was seen as something of a radical at the start of that period.


I have that Klemperer, I'm a big follower of his. I wonder if Strauss' being "old fashioned" was the real reason he neglected Strauss. After all, Klemperer was very Jewish, and R. Strauss was very German, having remained in Germany (with status) through the war. Klemperer was somewhat neglected in his career.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Just as I explained. R. Strauss and Wagner both represent the apotheosis of CP Classicism, and Boulez' Sonata 2 represents its antithesis.
> 
> Yes; into control-freak territory. It was just an innocuous comment which you should have just let pass. It's not as if I had been attempting to drive the thread off-topic.
> 
> ...


I'd intended to PM you to clear the air but apparently you do not take PMs.

Therefore the air shall have to remain murky. C'est la vie!:tiphat:

Btw re your last post, it is always salutary to remember that Strauss had a Jewish daughter in law that he had to protect. Who knows what one would do if placed in a similar situation.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Barbebleu said:


> I'd intended to PM you to clear the air but apparently you do not take PMs.
> 
> Therefore the air shall have to remain murky. C'est la vie!:tiphat:
> 
> *Btw re your last post, it is always salutary to remember that Strauss had a Jewish daughter in law that he had to protect. Who knows what one would do if placed in a similar situation.*


Apparently Hitler managed to get Strauss's letters to Stefan Zweig that weren't particularly supportive towards the nazis. As a result he was dismissed from his post as _Reichsmusikkammer_ president.


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