# Karl Jenkins - Palladio



## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

This is what we call "neoclassical" music, right? I like this kind of contemporary music.

How do you rate this piece? Here below a recording of the London Philarmonic.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Horrible. Jenkins wrote some pretty interesting tunes for Soft Machine and De Wolfe Music, but the whole "Diamond Music" (1996) and "Adiemus" (1995) thing he did was a naked attempt to "cash in" on the popularity of "Enigma" (1990) and "Orinocco Flow" (1988) and all that other purely vapid New Age muzak out at the time.

Hideously simplistic.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

It sucks. Cheesy car commercial level writing. Even when he was in Soft Machine he was the fourth best composer in the band.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

EdwardBast said:


> Even when he was in Soft Machine he was the fourth best composer in the band.


That seems a bit harsh... but, in the ballpark.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

NoCoPilot said:


> That seems a bit harsh... but, in the ballpark.


Soft Machine members who were better composers: Ratledge, Hopper, Dean, Holdsworth. So, historically, fifth best? At any given time, however, one could say there were always at least two better composers in the band, so I guess third best at every particular moment?


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> It sucks. *Cheesy car commercial level writing*. Even when he was in Soft Machine he was the fourth best composer in the band.


He made his name in commercials. I should know, I went up against him several times pitching for jobs.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

HansZimmer said:


> This is what we call "neoclassical" music, right?


No, it is not. IMHO
Neoclassical is things like 
Una mattina or Fly / Ludovico Einaudi
Metamorphosis or Glassworks /Philip Glass
Only Questions / Max Richter

composers like Yiruma or Part.


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## abrygida (5 mo ago)

Accordion version


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

eljr said:


> No, it is not. IMHO
> Neoclassical is things like
> Una mattina or Fly / Ludovico Einaudi
> Metamorphosis or Glassworks /Philip Glass
> ...


The standard use of the term neoclassicism is in reference to music by Stravinsky, Hindemith, Poulenc, Ravel, etc. beginning around 1920.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Just like the discussion(s) of film music, the use of an orchestra does not automatically make it "classical."

Jenkins is "car commercial music" through and through.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> The standard use of the term neoclassicism is in reference to music by Stravinsky, Hindemith, Poulenc, Ravel, etc. beginning around 1920.


Take a look.


https://music.amazon.in/albums/B0B45WPM4X



How would you categorize the music I referenced?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

eljr said:


> Take a look.
> 
> 
> https://music.amazon.in/albums/B0B45WPM4X
> ...


Minimalism, post-minimalism, process minimalism — certainly nothing to do with neoclassicism ( I didn't—won't —listen to Einaudi) Applied to those composers, "neoclassicism" can only be an ineptly conceived Amazon marketing category.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

To all the users commenting only about the first movement: it's a concerto grosso of three movements and you wrote nothing about the second and about the third movements.
It seems that the haters only want to puntualize that the main theme of the first movement was originally used for a commercial... so what? To write that a theme is bad because it was written for a commercial is not a musical argument at all. It's a snob argument. 

I suppose that the users who voted "horrible" are the same that use the pejorative term "car commercial music". I understand that it might be not the best theme of classical music, but horrible?? If you think that the theme is horrible then you have never listened to a horrible theme! It looks more like a form of personal hate towards the author, than a honest review about the music. 

I don't know why you speak about cars: the theme was used in spots for the company DeBeers, so we are speaking of commercials about diamonds. Is the company so stupid to associate his product with a horrible theme? 
It must be said that the spots of DeBeers are quite artistic, so "music for a DeBeers spot" is not pejorative. Infact, an artistic spot needs good music that fit with the rest of the work.






I've seen TV spots with Vivaldi's music. It's not that the music of Vivaldi loses quality if used in commercials. More likely, the TV spots are elevated by Vivaldi's music.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> Just like the discussion(s) of film music, the use of an orchestra does not automatically make it "classical."
> 
> Jenkins is "car commercial music" through and through.


Diamonds commercial music.

I've never wrote that a piece of music is classical only because is orchestral. This is a strawman. A piece, very simply, is classical when it sounds classical and there is more than instrumentation in the classical aesthetic.
Instead, your way to categorize is obscure, because it seems like you consider the music you like as classical music and that you want to exclude from the category the pieces with a classical style that you don't like

That said, not only I think that Palladio is classical music: I think that it's also Classical music, i.e. music which sounds like typical orchestral works of the classical period.
More specifically, it brings to my mind this overture of Mozart.







Or this symphony formerly attributed to Mozart.







I could also mention two baroque pieces: the summer and the winter of Vivaldi. The mood is similar.

In this case the author also made sure to use a classical music format: concerto grosso of three movements.

I read that some people attack Palladio because it's derivative. This at least is a musical argument (not like the use of pejorative term "car commercial music"), but I think that there is nothing wrong with reviving the classical period. There are many persons (including me) that like the style of the classical period and that they are happy when they hear similar things produced in modern days.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> Jenkins is "car commercial music" through and through.


Good commercials or bad commercials?

It's a bit like to ask: good movies or bad movies?

I consider Schindler's List as "cinematic art" and the music that Johh Williams wrote for it as a part of the high artistic product.

A commercial can also be artistic.
That's why in the world of rational thinking, "music of commercials" and "music for movies" is not a pejorative term. "Music for bad movies" or "music for bad commercials" is a pejorative term.

That's why I ask: good commercials or bad commercials?
If I want to create a GOOD commercial, I hire a GOOD composer who is able to write a GOOD and memorable theme.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Musical taste is totally subjective. If you like "Palladio," fine for you. Words like "good" and "bad" are value judgments, not facts.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> Musical taste is totally subjective. If you like "Palladio," fine for you. Words like "good" and "bad" are value judgments, not facts.


If the problem is simply that you don't subjectively like the piece why do you insist so much with the idea that it's only music for commercials, like to say that it's objectively music of low quality?

Yes, musical tastes are subjective, but I believe that there is also a technical and quite objective quality in music. Sometimes, you can't connect with a piece that it's technically good and some persons like music which is technically crude.
It doesn't seem to me that the techinical quality of Palladio is so low, but in this discussion the piece is portrayed like rubbish.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

HansZimmer said:


> If the problem is simply that you don't subjectively like the piece why do you insist so much with the idea that it's only music for commercials, like to say that it's objectively music of low quality?


Music for commercials tends to play to a low common denominator, not requiring any musical exposure or knowledge to appreciate.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> Music for commercials tends to play to a low common denominator, not requiring any musical exposure or knowledge to appreciate.


Are you saying that to appreciate Mozart you have to be an expert of music? Really?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Why bother doing a poll if you are going to object to the opinions that you get? It's your prerogative to like or dislike it just as it is for others, so it is inappropriate to take exception to differing opinions.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

Becca said:


> Why bother doing a poll if you are going to object to the opinions that you get? It's your prerogative to like or dislike it just as it is for others, so it is inappropriate to take exception to differing opinions.


I was replying to the arguments. If the users simply said "I don't like it" I wouldn't have nothing to say.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

I hate this whole soft-edged, kitschy, England-at-its-worst movement of "spiritual" elevator music. With a passion.
When I was still accompanying church choirs which had the ambition to do "modern" and "hip" repertoire (thank god those times are past us), there always was the inevitable sentimental piece of crap by Rutter or Jenkins, with boring as hell modal melodies, poppy chords for no obvious reasons and cheesy Richard Claydermann style accompaniments. Just thinking about it gives me a bad taste in my mouth.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

HansZimmer said:


> To all the users commenting only about the first movement: it's a concerto grosso of three movements and you wrote nothing about the second and about the third movements.
> It seems that the haters only want to puntualize that the main theme of the first movement was originally used for a commercial... so what? To write that a theme is bad because it was written for a commercial is not a musical argument at all. It's a snob argument.


Wrong. I had no idea it was used for a commercial, I just said it sound like a cheesy car commercial. It was an evaluation of the quality of the music, meaning it's not the sort of tripe I would ever like to see a serious musical audience subjected to. Like Robert, I somehow find it physically repulsive. It skeeves me.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

RobertJTh said:


> I hate this whole soft-edged, kitschy, England-at-its-worst movement of "spiritual" elevator music.


I guess Jenkins belongs to the "Wales-at-its-worst" movement


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

EdwardBast said:


> Wrong. I had no idea it was used for a commercial, I just said it sound like a cheesy car commercial. It was an evaluation of the quality of the music, meaning it's not the sort of tripe I would ever like to see a serious musical audience subjected to. Like Robert, I somehow find it physically repulsive. It skeeves me.


What does "cheesy" mean? I often read this word and I don't exactly understand the meaning.

What do you mean with "serious musical audience"? I know Palladio thanks to the classical music audience, because classical music fans here and there told me to listen to it. Infact, there are also different users here who gave a positive vote to the piece (the 58.4% of the voters gave a vote between "not bad" and "excellent"). I am one of the users who voted "good".

It doesn't seem to me that the technical quality of this piece is so low, especially the criticized first movement. More likely, the modern classical music is outgrowing a part of the audience of the classical music (the new music always outgrows many persons in the audience and receive hate).
This is because Beethoven is the main reference of most classical music listeners and they expect new composers to sound like him, but they don't because they belong to a new world (we are not in the classical period).


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Jenkins big break into pop classical came when he wrote what was actually a really great track for a Delta Airlines commercial. Such was the success of that, he broke away from his business partner and the successful jingle company they'd formed in order to pursue what he does now.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

mikeh375 said:


> Jenkins big break into pop classical came when he wrote what was actually a really great track for a Delta Airlines commercial. Such was the success of that, he broke away from his business partner and the successful jingle company they'd formed in order to pursue what he does now.


What did he write for the Delta Airlines?


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

He wrote this 'World Music' track for Delta Airlines that spawned the Adiemus albums featuring the brilliant Miriam Stockley, a session singer at the time.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

NoCoPilot said:


> Musical taste is totally subjective. If you like "Palladio," fine for you. Words like "good" and "bad" are value judgments, not facts.


I read the first few posts in the thread as disdain for sucess, neither subjective nor objective.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

NoCoPilot said:


> not requiring any musical exposure or knowledge to appreciate.


Who is it that requires musical exposure to appreciate? 

As I am not schooled in music I can't appreciate it?


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

HansZimmer said:


> Are you saying that to appreciate Mozart you have to be an expert of music? Really?


I think we can all read what is between the lines of the negative posts here.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

HansZimmer said:


> What does "cheesy" mean?


Simplistic. Repetitive. Formulaic. Lacking any surprising chordal movements.


eljr said:


> Who is it that requires musical exposure to appreciate?


Pop music uses simple rhythms, simple harmonic progressions, and often lots of repetition. "Adiemus" is classical music for a pop audience.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

HansZimmer said:


> What does "cheesy" mean? I often read this word and I don't exactly understand the meaning.


I have found dictionaries to be wonderful sources for questions like this.



HansZimmer said:


> What do you mean with "serious musical audience"?


I meant those with the experience and discernment to recognize cringe-worthy drivel when they hear it.



HansZimmer said:


> It doesn't seem to me that the technical quality of this piece is so low, especially the criticized first movement. More likely, the modern classical music is outgrowing a part of the audience of the classical music (the new music always outgrows many persons in the audience and receive hate).
> *This is because Beethoven is the main reference of most classical music listeners and they expect new composers to sound like him, but they don't because they belong to a new world (we are not in the classical period).*


"Most classical music listeners … expect new composers to sound like [Beethoven]?" You don't actually know any classical music listeners, do you? Or is this a joke?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

NoCoPilot said:


> classical music for a pop audience.





EdwardBast said:


> I meant those with the experience and discernment to recognize cringe-worthy drivel when they hear it.


Isn't it still subjective though?


hammeredklavier said:


> Who are these "serious CM fans"? How are they distinguished from the "masses"? People like Simon Moon, who find the tonal tunefulness of Bach's B minor mass "trite", and rates anything by Ligeti, Schoenberg higher?





hammeredklavier said:


> But why wouldn't you include [ Symphony No. 9 ~ Beethoven (113,330,632 views) www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3217H8JppI ] and [ Mozart - Requiem (104,450,736 views) www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi8vJ_lMxQI ] in that group? Because of the longer length? But apparently, the length isn't an obstacle for the casual listeners (the numbers of views on youtube even surpass those of Hungarian Dance No. 5, Blue Danube, for example). The distinction you make between casual listeners and serious listeners - strikes me as elitist.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Isn't it still subjective though?


Of _COURSE _it's all subjective. If somebody likes Ligeti over Bach, that's subjective. If somebody likes hot dogs over steak. that's subjective. If someone likes Bud Light... no wait. I've gone too far.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

HansZimmer said:


> What did he write for the Delta Airlines?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

NoCoPilot said:


> Of _COURSE _it's all subjective. If somebody likes Ligeti over Bach, that's subjective. If somebody likes hot dogs over steak. that's subjective. If someone likes Bud Light... no wait. I've gone too far.


And where do you draw the line exactly?


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> And where do you draw the line exactly?


Who says you have to draw a line?


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> Pop music uses simple rhythms, simple harmonic progressions, and often lots of repetition. "Adiemus" is classical music for a pop audience.


Can you elaborate the concept with a comparison between the first movement of "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" and the first movement of "Palladio"?

I consider Mozart like a prophet of classical music and Karl Jenkins only someone who wrote some not bad pieces, and I consider "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" a standard of classical music and Palladio a quite good piece to which we can listen sometimes, but your argument against repetition logically leads to the conclusion that Mozart was a bad composer.

Why?

Because the first movement of "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" is a good example of the compositional approach of Mozart in many orchestral works, including symphonies.






Between 00:00 and 1:30 we can listen to the exposition of the block of themes.

Between 1:30 and 3:00 we can listen to a reprise of the block without any evident variation of the contained themes.

Between 3:00 and 3:33 there is a contrasting block which contains a variation of one of the themes.
Then, after 3:33 we have the final reprise of the main block.
This time there are some slight variations in the final part of the block that drive to the conclusion of the piece.


The structure of Palladio is similar.






Between 0:00 and 0:49 we can listen to the exposition of a block which explores some variations of one theme.
Between 0:49 and 1:32 the block is repeated with some instrumental variations.
Between 1:32 and 2:18 there is a contrasting block.
Between 2:18 and 3:00 the main block of the exposition is repeated.
Between the 3:00 and 3:42 there is an other repetition of the main block, but this time there are contrasting themes in the final part which drive to the conclusion of the piece.


Conclusion: in both pieces there are many repetitions. The contrasting blocks contains only variations of the themes and not real developments.
The main block of "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" is composed by different themes, while the main block of Palladio is composed of variations of one theme.
Yes, we can say that Eine Kleine Nachtmusik is more varied, but the compositional approach of Palladio is not uncommon in classical music. How many pieces of classical music are based on a single theme that it's even more simple than the one of Palladio?

As I've already written, I have no problems with you not liking Palladio, but the problem begins when you declare imaginary qualities of classical music (like "there are not repetitions") and you use those imaginary qualities to expel the pieces you don't like from classical music and you say things like "I studied music and the persons who like that piece don't understand that it's bad".

Keep in mind that a compositional approach more based in writing memorable themes instead of writing elaborate variations/developments of one or more themes is possible in classical music and can be appreciated, otherwise we must expel Mozart and his music, because the compositional approach of "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" is quite typical.
Infact the philosophy of Mozart was that the goal of music is simply to give pleasure to our ears, and this is what he did.

Do you think that it's easy to become a good theme writer? This is an important skill for becoming succesful composers inside the world of soundtracks (film music, videogame music, music for commercials, and so on...).


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

EdwardBast said:


> I meant those with the experience and discernment to recognize cringe-worthy drivel when they hear it.


It's funny, because in the discussion about popular music you said that instead of saying that the music of Elvis Presley is bad we should try to understand which music is good for a determined goal, but when it comes to classical music you think that you are expectations are the right one and you treat persons with different views like ignorant.

My main expectations from a classical music piece are quite simple: I expect solid, memorable themes and good players, and not pieces of music which do nerdy things (counterpoints, fugues, whatever you want) with forgettable themes.
This mean that I can appreciate nerdy things if they are based on good themes/subjects and that I prefer more simple things with good themes rather than nerdy things with forgettable themes.

Although I don't consider Palladio as one the best pieces of classical music, his quality is more than sufficient for my expectations, because the themes are interesting enough to not put the piece in the trash and the recording comes from a good orchestra, with players who are certainly capable of giving charachter to the notes.

For the rest, read my previous post.



> "Most classical music listeners … expect new composers to sound like [Beethoven]?" You don't actually know any classical music listeners, do you? Or is this a joke?


I knew that the expression "sound like Beethoven" was not so good to express what I wanted to say.

What I wanted to say is that most users in this forum consder Beethoven as the greatest composer, which means that they value the aspects of music in which Beethoven excelled. The pieces with good melodies are often called "cheesy" by a part of classical music audience because they come from composers who work hard on a component of the music while they don't sometimes focus so much in other aspects of music that are more considered in the pieces of Beethoven.

It's more a question of values than a question of "sound like Beethoven".


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

The main issue is that we have more than enough original baroque and classical music. There is no need for imitations, no matter how well they're done.
If the only thing you can do as a composer is using a historical style without any personal touch or connection to the modern world we live in, just forget about it. Your music has no value or relevance.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

RobertJTh said:


> The main issue is that we have more than enough original baroque and classical music. There is no need for imitations, no matter how well they're done.
> If the only thing you can do as a composer is using a historical style without any personal touch or connection to the modern world we live in, just forget about it. Your music has no value or relevance.


If you said "I don't need new pieces in baroque and classical music" I wouldn't have any problem, but if you say "we don't need..." then I have to disagree, because I'm a part of the "we".

Personally, I'm happy if modern composers write new things inside the baroque/classical style. I want to keep old traditions alive.
Believe me, most people can connect with neobaroque and neoclassical music more than they can with new contemporary music, because there is something in which baroque and classical music is more similar to the mainstream music of the modern world: melody/harmony diatonic scales, coherence, and so on...


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

HansZimmer said:


> Can you elaborate the concept with a comparison between the first movement of "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" and the first movement of "Palladio"?


No, I won't. If you go back and re-read my posts on this discussion, you'll realize my criticisms of Jenkins apply equally to Mozart. It's sacrilegious to not like Mozart, but to me, his music is too ornamental, too florid, too full of trills and rising and falling scales. It's flower arranging.

Nobody would deny Mozart is "classical," in fact he might be the very definition of "classical."

You'll also find I did not claim Jenkins was *not* classical. It's just bad classical.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

HansZimmer said:


> If you said "I don't need new pieces in baroque and classical music" I wouldn't have any problem, but if you say "we don't need..." then I have to disagree, because I'm a part of the "we".
> 
> *Personally, I'm happy if modern composers write new things inside the baroque/classical style. I want to keep old traditions alive.*
> Believe me, most people can connect with neobaroque and neoclassical music more than they can with new contemporary music, because there is something in which baroque and classical music is more similar to the mainstream music of the modern world: melody/harmony diatonic scales, coherence, and so on...



... well if that's the case Hans, you'll have to put up with all of those nerdy things you mentioned in post 40. The problem is that any composer who has anything about them worthwhile, will not be writing that way and any that do are more likely to be amateur and unable to compete with the masters of the past, musically and sonically.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

mikeh375 said:


> ... well if that's the case Hans, you'll have to put up with all of those nerdy things you mentioned in post 40.


I've already written in an other discussion that the fundamental reason for which I like this fugue of Bach is that I like the green subject exposed at the beginning of the piece.






The nerdy things that are done around the subject in the following fugue sound good because the subject is good. I'm not saying that the things that are done with the subject have no relevance in how the piece sound, but how would the piece sound without a good subject?
On the other hand, a more simple melody based on the same subject might also be good.

Regardless of what is the composer (Bach, Mozart, Jenkins, Hans Zimmer,...) I always evaluate a piece with the same glasses: "Does the piece sound good? Is the piece expressive? Are the players good?". Not necessarily you have to be aware of what happens in the score in order to appreciate a piece, like for example: "Oh... look, this is a fugue!".


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> No, I won't. If you go back and re-read my posts on this discussion, you'll realize my criticisms of Jenkins apply equally to Mozart. It's sacrilegious to not like Mozart, but to me, his music is too ornamental, too florid, too full of trills and rising and falling scales. It's flower arranging.


For me Mozart is the greatest composer, at least the best of the three most famous composers: Mozart, Beethoven and Bach. At the moment I'm undecided between Mendelssohn and Mozart: I still have to listen to all of the pieces of the former to decide, but in some of the pieces I've heard Mendelssohn looks great in themes writing.

The fact that you consider Mozart as a "so so composer" (not a number one, apparently) can explain why we have different views about music.



> You'll also find I did not claim Jenkins was *not* classical. It's just bad classical.


You wrote

------------------------

Just like the discussion(s) of film music, the use of an orchestra does not automatically make it "classical."

Jenkins is "car commercial music" through and through.

------------------------

For me, Palladio is decent (not excellent) classical music and not BAD classical music.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

HansZimmer said:


> For me Mozart is the greatest composer


No wonder that you like Jenkins then. There's no shame in it -- it's all just personal taste.


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