# What do fans of the classical avant-garde think of non-classical experimental music?



## Boychev (Jul 21, 2014)

By "non-classical experimental music" here I am referring to approaches such as:
- free improvisation
- electroacoustic improvisation
- noise music
- ambient music
- drone music

I am confused about the relationship between such music and various composers like Stockhausen, Schaeffer, Cage, Feldman, Reich, and even someone from the previous generation like Satie - composers who pushed the limits not just of tonality and form, but of the very definition of music. Ambient music, to take a simple example, is never considered in the context of the classical tradition, yet Satie and his concept of "furniture music" are. Similarly, John Cage was one of the pioneers of various forms of improvised and electroacoustic music, but various musicians who exclusively make such music are considered their own niche, and not classical avant-garde musicians. Why?

Is it the adherence to the written score (which the aforementioned scenes disregard entirely, yet the aforementioned avant-garde composers stuck to)? Is it the classical training and academic recognition that matters in this case? And what do the people who enjoy 20th and 21st century avant-garde music think of such experimental music?


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2018)

Well, I really like the jazz/crossover stuff from Donaueschingen Musiktage released by NEOS. Elliott Sharp is very cool!

I have a feeling that there are no clearly defined rules that differentiate free improvisation (electroacoustic and instrumental) from the 'classical avant-garde' as there seems to be a lot of cross pollination going on as well. I listened to _Paranoia_ by Bernhard Lang a week and a half ago, and that's pretty jazzy but he's more well known for being a composer in the 'classical' sense.

From my home town, Robin Fox and Anthony Pateras are sort of classical but sort of not (it's hard to tell) but their works were a major influence on me when I was around 12 or 13 years old, and I still love their music to this day.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I have no problem with experimental music. But sorry, after listening to Fox and Pateras, there are no words. Words fail me. Pause. I certainly wouldn't consider this ambient by any stretch of the imagination because of its chaotic, jarring nature. Ambient is atmospheric, open, and establishes a mood. This is the opposite of that, and it has no pitches, nothing planned, percussive only. They seem hypnotized by the moment without actually hearing what they are playing, and I see no evidence of talent other than having some sense of rhythm that the average person on the street might have. I wouldn't consider them classical in the slightest. I would consider the description "noise music" to be a contradiction of terms. I fail to see how it could be considered to be both.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

shirime said:


> From my home town, Robin Fox and Anthony Pateras are sort of classical but sort of not (it's hard to tell) but their works were a major influence on me when I was around 12 or 13 years old, and I still love their music to this day.


I can sense your enthusiasm and I have no problem with experimental music. But sorry, after listening to Fox and Pateras, there are no words. Words fail me. Pause. I got nothing out of it but annoyance. I wouldn't consider them classical by any stretch of the imagination. I consider the description "noise music" to be a contradiction of terms. It can't be both. The reason why such jarring noise gets lumped together with classical music is that some of the people who like classical music happen to like and listen to this stuff too. But I fail to see any possible relationship, starting with the level of talent that goes into each. This reminds me more of garage band stuff, hobbyists. Something unique and experimental has been known to fail. This was not for me, but good luck with it anyway.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't worry about classifications. One very talented person working today is Maja Osojnik. She is an avant garde vocalist/electronic music composer. There are live performances on YouTube, and her album Let Them Grow can be listened to on bandcamp.

My own taste lies more towards working ensembles. I like sophisticated composition and improv. There are the pioneers like Sun Ra, Zappa, Henry Cow. And there are many other ensembles working today. A good place to find a lot of these recordings are at labels such as John Zorn's Tzadik, the ReR Megacorp online store (where you can find all the Henry Cow and related stuff). They have a tons of weird stuff on CD for only 5 pounds if you buy at least four titles. And Wayside Music is another great progressive/avant rock and jazz online store. You can find great deals there if you check the site regularly.

I can't help with ambient or noise music. It's not my cuppa tea. I'm always looking for progressive bands and artists with a small "p". Not the stuff that fits neatly into the genre category and is derived from the famous 70s bands.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Boychev said:


> Is it the adherence to the written score (which the aforementioned scenes disregard entirely, yet the aforementioned avant-garde composers stuck to)? Is it the classical training and academic recognition that matters in this case?


A couple of good questions.

Second one first - I am sure lack of academic recognition gets some noses out of joint, and for others, the anti-elite, it may even be part of what is attractive.

But the first question is more interesting to me. I think a composer is organizing a set of sounds; the set of sounds is the composed piece, and if one is to play the composers work one must have something to learn, to go by. A written score, a lead sheet, a chart, a diagram, something.

If the music is entirely spontaneous, its hard for me to understand what is composed about it, or to call the author a composer.

That said, it could be wonderful entertainment, and a recording of same may be something enjoyable and played often.

Everything that is wonderful entertainment isn't music, much less composed music, much less "classical music", but so what?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

People who are composers/artists performing their own material in clubs or at colleges using electric equipment most likely get tagged as non classical. Other composers who write for acoustic classical ensembles get classified as "legit" composers even if both sets of people have the same training. It's the circles they work in.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

shirime said:


> Well, I really like the jazz/crossover stuff from Donaueschingen Musiktage released by NEOS. Elliott Sharp is very cool!
> 
> I have a feeling that there are no clearly defined rules that differentiate free improvisation (electroacoustic and instrumental) from the 'classical avant-garde' as there seems to be a lot of cross pollination going on as well. I listened to _Paranoia_ by Bernhard Lang a week and a half ago, and that's pretty jazzy but he's more well known for being a composer in the 'classical' sense.
> 
> From my home town, Robin Fox and Anthony Pateras are sort of classical but sort of not (*it's hard to tell*) but their works were a major influence on me when I was around 12 or 13 years old, and I still love their music to this day.


Hard to tell the difference between this and filing a saw! How on earth can anyone call this music?


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

While I am not a huge fan of any of the types of experimental music you list, I am a huge fan of other types of non-classical experimental music.

Mostly similar to Starthrower's taste, above. His quote, "My own taste lies more towards working ensembles. I like sophisticated composition and improv", pretty much describes my preferences.

Bands like:

Henry Cow
Thinking Plague
Univers Zero
Art Zoyd
Charming Hostess











Or jazz artists like:

Art Ensemble of Chicago
Anthony Braxton
Tomasz Stanko
Cecil Taylor






I am not trying to sound purposely insulting, but I am not a fan of experimental music that comes from non-musicians. I am of the opinion, that the best experimental music comes from musicians that know the "rules", then break them.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

There are artists that are difficult to classify such as guitarist Ben Monder. Some of his stuff would be called modern jazz employing advanced harmonic structures and improv. And many other pieces are completely composed. I would include composer/alto saxophonist Steve Coleman too.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Jazzy


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

shirime said:


> Robin Fox and Anthony Pateras


That was fun! I smiled all the way through. Far better than that Charlie Sdraulig pretentious stuff.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

I'm a pretty big fan of all those genres. Personally, I don't see any/much connection between them and Cage, Feldman, or Satie, but I would consider the others to have elements of experimental music (or to be completely experimental). I'm a big fan of both experimental music and avant-garde classical (with Feldman being my favorite composer). I create both things, and I don't really consider pure experimental music and classical music to be linked. I think that for music to be experimental it has to not be fully composed beforehand, which I would consider a necessity for classical music. Since you differentiate between ambient and drone, I wouldn't call ambient music experimental; it's usually composed and has a defined structure. I don't consider Satie to be ambient, or things like Eno's piano music (are you referring to Feldman as ambient, or what? He's just classical to my ears like Satie). Musique concrete seems more composed and structured as well, so maybe I do see a bit of a link between classical and those genres My favorite experimental genre is probably dark ambient, which combines basically all the styles you listed (electroacoustic, noise, ambient, drone, also industrial and perhaps some other things). My favorite experimental group is :zoviet*france: who are also something like my 2nd or 3rd favorite musical entity of all time. Here's one of my favorite examples, but I love everything by them:


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> I can sense your enthusiasm and I have no problem with experimental music. But sorry, after listening to Fox and Pateras, there are no words. Words fail me. Pause. I got nothing out of it but annoyance. I wouldn't consider them classical by any stretch of the imagination. I consider the description "noise music" to be a contradiction of terms. It can't be both. The reason why such jarring noise gets lumped together with classical music is that some of the people who like classical music happen to like and listen to this stuff too. But I fail to see any possible relationship, starting with the level of talent that goes into each. This reminds me more of garage band stuff, hobbyists. Something unique and experimental has been known to fail. This was not for me, but good luck with it anyway.


I love it, you don't have to, but I do think because Pateras comes from a conservatory-taught tradition of classical music composition and expanded from there I do tend to believe that his works are somewhat part of classical music as a whole even if stuff like this veers more towards other styles of music.


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2018)

I also like the Merzbow stuff I've heard


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

I love harsh noise. I find it (ironically?) very relaxing. It's like the inverse of drone. People seem to be aware of the calming effect of white noise but then scoff at noise music. I love to hear all the possibilities of sound - ALL of them - not just what is pretty and consonant.

My favorite Merzbow album:






And probably my favorite noise album in general (pay no attention to what the uploader is saying, they seem to have gone mad...):


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

shirime said:


>


This is not really as fringe as some of the complainers here think. If you look at the console, it's not homemade, it's something built by a company and specifically for performers of this kind of music, just to give you an idea of how popular this actually is. In fact, I once went to a concert of music similar to this, and the concert hall was actually full! There even was a lot more people than in a concert of music by Boulez, if I remember well, that I saw in the same hall some days before. The truth is that the noise genre is relatively popular by itself outside the contemporary classical scene, and in some cases even more popular than the latter (which, paradoxically, some see as the epitome of noise, lol).

The rhythm of noise can be much more complex and interesring than pretty much anything of what I have heard of, and the people that make this music have quite acute ears for perceiving and directing this. Think of it in the following way. When you see an apparently homogeneous surface from the distance, it seems homogeneous and boring. I think this is how people that don't like noise then to perceive it. But, when you get closer to the surface, you start noticing all sorts of details and patterns. In the case of noise, when you get used to it, in particular to the very fast pace of the events, one starts noticing very interesting and complex polyrhythmic patterns, for example. And this is similar to some contemporary classical music that may also seem impenetrable at first.

I think people really should refrain from making those automatic and easy judgements of the style 'oh look at that fake crank, surely has no clue about music and has no talent for it'. I propose you to think about the reverse: what if the alleged crank knows pretty well what he is doing and that he knows and can appreciate music at much more subtle scales than you? Sure, you can call me snobish, but what if what I'm saying is true? Have you ever thought about it in this way? that the problem is really you and not them? The fact that there's a lot of people from quite diverse backgrounds that enjoy this music seems to favor this view rather than a massive and miraculously cohesive conspiracy of snobs that are faking that they hear interesting rhythms in that noise and fake that they think that the people that make it are rather good at directing it due to their sensitive ears.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

I forgot to mention Brighter Death Now who is another one of my favorite artists of all time. They're part of a genre called "power electronics" which is harsh noise + screaming, and further subgenre "death industrial" which is harsh noise + dark ambient + screaming more in the background. Here's one of my favorite albums by them, and the most famous according to RateYourMusic:






To compare, here are the originators of straight power electronics. The lyrics are VERY offensive and disturbing, as a warning. Music doesn't get much more intense and brutal than this. Emoviolence is really the only thing that is comparable in terms of intensity and brutality:


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