# Is the finale of Beethoven's 9th on the same level as the first 3 movements?



## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

I've heard many people, including some notable musical figures, state that the final movement of Beethoven's 9th is not on the same level of greatness as the first 3 movements. Luckily for myself I haven't worn this piece out yet and have only listened to it maybe 6 or 7 times. However, of those times I have listened, I prefer the first 3 movements by a pretty good margin. 

Quote by Verdi: "marvelous in its first three movements, very badly set in the last. No one will ever surpass the sublimity of the first movement, but it will be an easy task to write as badly for voices as is done in the last movement."

If you're not sure if it is on the same level of "greatness", do you like it as much as the preceding movements?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

The main reason why I don't like this symphony as much as the others is because of the last movement. It's so good it makes me seem to forget about the first three despite Beethoven's efforts to get them back into our heads with his little quotations at the start of it (but then again, he dismisses the earlier snippets for the simple ode to joy melody that proceeds). 

If the last movement was a piece of music in itself and the first three movements had an instrumental finale with as much power as the last movement of the 5th symphony and lasted for about 13 or 14 minutes, I would be much more pleased. 

The finale of Beethoven's 9th to me seems like the culmination of his large scale works. It just doesn't seem to work well with the first three....


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I happen to adore the final movement. As an Ode to Joy, it is bubbling over with the most exalted of joys. Sometimes, I can't control my anticipation, so I listen to just the final movement. It's the first three movements I need to listen to more often.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It's a different animal and can't be judged by the same standards, IMO. It's no longer a work of art, to be evaluated aesthetically -- it's a public event. And that's how it's perceived even unto today. It has passed beyond our judgments of it as "music."

If you think about it, that's quite consistent with Beethoven's goals.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I think that the last movement is just as sublime as the first three movements... the celebration of humanity is quite evident within all of his symphonic traits.

I think that a few critics just never thought of Beethoven as a particularly strong vocal composer... for example, his opera Fidelio and his songs don't garner the same amount of attention as his string quartet, piano concerti, or symphonies. But he was a fine composer for voices methinks.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Just to note, Spohr on Ludwig's ninth: "The fourth movement is, in my opinion, so monstrous and tasteless and, in its grasp of Schiller's Ode, so trivial that I cannot understand how a genius like Beethoven could have written it."

Well, that's Spohr. Inventor of the violin chinrest after all. What greater authority could you ask?


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Mov 1 is just plain chords banged one after the other with some fifths here and some scales there, it's better than Messiaen doing the exact same thing over and over. :devil:


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2014)

I'm in the camp that would call the first three movements underrated given the popularity of the finale, but at the same time I wouldn't call the finale overrated. Different from the first three? Sure. Popular? Sure. Overrated? I find it to be the perfect finale for to follow those three grand movements.


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## Dave Whitmore (Oct 3, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> I happen to adore the final movement. As an Ode to Joy, it is bubbling over with the most exalted of joys. Sometimes, I can't control my anticipation, so I listen to just the final movement. It's the first three movements I need to listen to more often.


THIS!

I love the whole symphony, but sometimes I will just skip ahead and listen to the final movement. Especially if I'm a little pushed for time and not sure if I'll get to hear the whole thing. That music and singing just lifts my spirits whenever I hear it. Ode To Joy is such an apt title.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Well, let's see. I have almost all of Beethoven's music in my collection. I have _zero_ Verdi music. Why should I care what he thought?

I think of the symphony as a whole and enjoy all four movements almost equally, the exception being the slow third movement feeling slightly weaker for me (but only slightly!) because I'm not quite as fond of theme and variation as a musical form. As for the fourth movement, I couldn't care less how "poorly written" the vocal parts are. The effect on this listener is all that matters in the end. And what an effect!


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## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

I believe Beethoven was trying to describe a vision. It is quite understandable that many find it naive and trivial. I doubt Beethoven cares. 

I see life being released (apparently chaotic) from self-imposed repression and self-satisfied arrogance (therefore appearing naive to the old guard being left behind), and finding joy in the blindingly brilliant re-recognition of freely moving life in multiple synchronicities with all beings as brothers.

Beethoven knew this was possible.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2014)

I find the Ninth works just fine as a whole. Certainly the fourth movement is different from his other fourths, but what is a marked 'change of gear' doesn't seem to me to be problematic.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I like the whole work and agree with many of the comments above. I do think that over more recent times the finale has almost become a separate work given the way it has been adopted as the EU anthem. I wonder what Ludwig would have made of this?


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Yes. A more detailed answer: yes.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dufay said:


> I believe Beethoven was trying to describe a vision. It is quite understandable that many find it naive and trivial. I doubt Beethoven cares.
> 
> I see life being released (apparently chaotic) from self-imposed repression and self-satisfied arrogance (therefore appearing naive to the old guard being left behind), and finding joy in the blindingly brilliant re-recognition of freely moving life in multiple synchronicities with all beings as brothers.
> 
> Beethoven knew this was possible.


If I know what you're saying as clearly as I think I know what you're saying, I agree!

I've never had the slightest misgiving about the finale. It's difficult music to perform, though; there's hardly a performance in which something couldn't be done better. You need a dramatic bass-baritone, a heroic tenor, a rich alto, and a soprano who can soar above everything without screaming. You have to get the tempos right, not too rushed: that tenor solo has to swing, not scamper, the solo quartet writing is convoluted but won't sound awkward if the singers have time, and there's fantastic orchestral detail all through the movement that gets lost if you hurry.

I never bought the idea that Beethoven's very intentional "popular" touch is vulgar, or inconsistent with the first three movements; it's really akin to the way his late quartets throw together everything from the sublime to the ridiculous and end up transcending all opposites, classes, and categories. If the greatest things are the things least describable, this symphony is still the greatest.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I never bought the idea that Beethoven's very intentional "popular" touch is vulgar, or inconsistent with the first three movements; it's really akin to the way his late quartets throw together everything from the sublime to the ridiculous and end up transcending all opposites, classes, and categories. If the greatest things are the things least describable, this symphony is still the greatest.


Agreed, it bears repeating. As do a few other posts in this thread which perfectly sum up my thoughts on the 9th's Finale. So, I let yours and those posts speak for me (for now).


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## Perotin (May 29, 2012)

This symphony remindes me of a frog, that tries to gradually inflate itself to the size of an ox, until it finally bursts into pieces from the excess of pompousness and grandiosity.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Perotin said:


> This symphony remindes me of a frog, that tries to gradually inflate itself to the size of an ox, until it finally bursts into pieces from the excess of pompousness and grandiosity.


I'm sure Beethoven would find that an absolutely charming description of his symphony!


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

KenOC said:


> It's a different animal and can't be judged by the same standards, IMO. *It's no longer a work of art*, to be evaluated aesthetically -- it's a public event. And that's how it's perceived even unto today. It has passed beyond our judgments of it as "music."
> 
> If you think about it, that's quite consistent with Beethoven's goals.


:tiphat:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

To my taste the first three movements are good, but not the best he wrote in his symphonies (I much prefer the 6th and 5th). The final movement I can't stand. It feels forced and unnatural to me.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

I'm with tha h8rs. The last movement is a bit of a trial (although the Turkish march is at least funny) while the rest is unbelievably sublime


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

GioCar said:


> :tiphat:


"Ceci n'est pas une pipe," c'est une image d'une pipe. En fait, c'est une oeuvre d'art par Magritte, donc le 9me Symphonie est une oeuvre d'art par Beethoven. :tiphat:


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Hanslick said something like: It is a heroic torso in white marble with a green head attached. 

I think it is a marvelous mess. I suppose the strategy of contrasting the subjective, interior experience of the first three movements with the broad humanistic perspective of the finale works on some level. And the transition is handled about as well as it could be, but it requires a kind of programmatic reevalutation of the first three movements to justify itself. I am offended on behalf of the first three movements, if that makes any sense.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2014)

I'm far too lazy to check this (just like many a monotheistic fundamentalist), but I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Beethoven made a comment to Karl Holz (a younger member of his entourage at the end of his life) along the lines of "I may have made a mistake" (in having a choral finale). To be verified. Off you go.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I think the first three movements are there to prepare the head for relinquishing control to the heart.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

i've always listened 9th first three parts with anticipation to hear its finale in the end.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

TalkingHead said:


> I'm far too lazy to check this (just like many a monotheistic fundamentalist), but I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Beethoven made a comment to Karl Holz (a younger member of his entourage at the end of his life) along the lines of "I may have made a mistake" (in having a choral finale). To be verified. Off you go.


As an artist (visual) myself, I _usually_ take judgements made about one's own work with a grain of salt (Not always, but usually).


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## BartokPizz (Oct 26, 2014)

Wow, there is a lot of _ad hominem _in this thread. "Why should I care what Verdi has to say, since I don't have any of his music?" "Spohr, second-rate composer and inventor of the chinrest, is a great authority, I declare with heavy irony!"

If we only let the greatest of composers have an opinion on the finale of the ninth, then all of us had best be silent.

I think opinions about music ought to be assessed on their merits, not on the basis of who spoke them.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

...but I like Louis Spohr 

As for the question, well, I don't know. I had never thought about it until I read a similarly disparaging topic a long time ago, and when I went to revisit the ode I did grimace a bit when all the voices started interlocking. My takeaway was that I had forgotten how much I love it, despite the clumsiness that had been pointed out to me.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2014)

On a different note, before the big theme even comes in in the fourth movement, I always find it funny/cute/neat how he very briefly presents little fragments from each of the first three movements. It's as if he knew he was pushing it with the length of this symphony and he wanted to make sure no one forgot the other stuff


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes. Every movement of the Ninth is glorious.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The worst thing about the movement in my view is that it's somewhat sectional*, but then, according to Rosen, there simply was no way the classical style could accommodate continuous, unbroken large-scale movements such as those of Bruckner or Mahler. When I was younger, the heterogeneity didn't strike me as a problem at all, given that I saw the first three movements as a kind of prelude to the last.

* Not really much more than the similar finale of Mahler's Second, though.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Ukko said:


> I think the first three movements are there to prepare the head for relinquishing control to the heart.


Lovely thought, but I favor the reverse: The first three movements are there to prepare the heart for ceding control to the head.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> As an artist (visual) myself, I _usually_ take judgements made about one's own work with a grain of salt (Not always, but usually).


I agree. When an artist is taking a really bold, unprecedented step, moments of doubt are to be expected.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

You want to see how great the finale of the Beethoven Ninth is? Simply assign 100 of today's finest composers to write a revision of the fourth movement, "correcting" it and compare it to the original. My prediction: Beethoven wins.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Also shouldn't we acknowledge that the 9th is the first time that vocal writing comprises a crucial section of symphonic compositions? I don't recall any Mozart or Haydn or predecessor's symphonies having vocal sections to that extent.

Undoubtably, Mahler's Resurrection symphony (2) takes its cues from Beethoven's 9th. In fact, one could argue that Mahler extended what Beethoven was doing nearly a century earlier.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Beethoven tried something unique in the finale of the ninth symphony adding sectionalized combinations of vocal soloists and chorus to a symphony.

Would the ninth symphony have been greater or less great had Beethoven composed the final movement strictly as an instrumental movement? Unfortunately, we will never know.

All I know is to be one of the soloists in the finale, it is an absolute bitch to sing. Beethoven showed them no mercy.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I prefer the inner movements to the outer ones, but I'm not going to say the last movement is a disappointment or anything like that.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> The worst thing about the movement in my view is that it's somewhat sectional*, but then, according to Rosen, there simply was no way the classical style could accommodate continuous, unbroken large-scale movements such as those of Bruckner or Mahler. When I was younger, the heterogeneity didn't strike me as a problem at all, given that I saw the first three movements as a kind of prelude to the last.
> 
> * Not really much more than the similar finale of Mahler's Second, though.


The movement is sectional, but of course it's structured as a theme and variations, and an extravagantly free one, as, say, the Diabelli Variations and the final movement of the Op. 111 sonata are very free. The "sectionality" is the consequence of B's pushing the limits of variation form, seeking maximum contrast from one variation to the next, from a hymn to the world to a cocky Turkish march and battle scene. It's just one more impossible thing that B attempts and brings off so uproariously well that normal aesthetic criteria are hard to apply and are left in the dust of irrelevancy. I don't know quite how to judge the wild collection of odds and ends that make up the Op. 131 Quartet in C# minor either, but I take my state of amazement to be judgment enough!

I think Mahler's #2 is quite successful. It's a mini-drama rather than a variation movement, a more Romantic conception, post-Wagner. I love the fact that Beethoven at his most outrageous chooses something properly Classical like variation form and practically turns it inside out and upside down. No wonder we're still fighting about it: it's Classical, it's Romantic, it's a bird, it's a plane - it's Superman.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> I think Mahler's #2 is quite successful. It's a mini-drama rather than a variation movement, a more Romantic conception, post-Wagner. I love the fact that Beethoven at his most outrageous chooses something properly Classical like variation form and practically turns it inside out and upside down. No wonder we're still fighting about it: it's Classical, it's Romantic, it's a bird, it's a plane - it's Superman.


The finale of Mahler 2 starts off as if it were a sonata form of some kind, but as it continues it leaves behind any possibility of ending in either C minor or major. The chorus enters in the key of G-flat, which I consider a sign, along with the attendant change in style (the very operatic use of the soloists in particular), that the work is never going to return to where it started.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> The finale of Mahler 2 starts off as if it were a sonata form of some kind, but as it continues it leaves behind any possibility of ending in either C minor or major. The chorus enters in the key of G-flat, which I consider a sign, along with the attendant change in style (the very operatic use of the soloists in particular), that *the work is never going to return to where it started.*


And a damn good thing too. No point in being resurrected if you're just going to end up dead.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

I personally don't think that the last movement of the 9th is as good as the others, I find it a bit drawn out and 'forced'. But that's my opinion.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

BartokPizz said:


> Wow, there is a lot of _ad hominem _in this thread. "Why should I care what Verdi has to say, since I don't have any of his music?" "Spohr, second-rate composer and inventor of the chinrest, is a great authority, I declare with heavy irony!"
> 
> If we only let the greatest of composers have an opinion on the finale of the ninth, then all of us had best be silent.
> 
> I think opinions about music ought to be assessed on their merits, not on the basis of who spoke them.


 Even though I'm not particularly fond of Verdi either (apart from his requiem really) I certainly believe that he has merit to comment on and critique compositions for voice/choir because, after all, this was his speciality as an opera composer.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I say NO the second movement molto vivace is better than the finale to me.I do not hate the finale though.


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## Überstürzter Neumann (Jan 1, 2014)

Yes, it is quite silly. Pity, with those three first great movements.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I can't imagine putting myself in judgement of any of the movements of Beethoven's ninth. If they were good enough for Beethoven, they're evidently good enough.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

science said:


> I can't imagine putting myself in judgement of any of the movements of Beethoven's ninth. If they were good enough for Beethoven, they're evidently good enough.


But that's not your judgment - what do YOU think about the movement? How do you react to it?


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

It is very different from the first three movements and that does somewhat hurt the symphony's unity--I've always felt that. That said, I certainly enjoy the 4th movement more than the first three and if it were a standalone work, I would probably like it just as much as I do as a part of a larger symphony.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Some critics used to claim that the Ode to Joy tune was "prepared for" by the main subsidiary theme in the 1st movement and the theme of the trio in the 2nd. All three have a similar shape, at least. Maybe you can listen to all three in your head and decide if this makes any sense.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I myself am disappointed Beethoven didn't provide an alternative orchestral finale but I will not dispute the astonishing greatness of the choral finale he left us.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

The theme for the originally indented purely orchestral finale was the same as the op 132 string quartet's finale theme, except in D minor. That would have been an outstanding movement.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

SeptimalTritone said:


> The theme for the originally indented purely orchestral finale was the same as the op 132 string quartet's finale theme, except in D minor. That would have been an outstanding movement.


That would really be something to hear. Then we could claim the finale of the 9th Symphony was ripped off by Leontovych instead of the 15th SQ finale.

I enjoy the final movement for what it is but I'd love to hear a purely instrumental version. I can imagine the recurring theme coming back in full force, completing what was started with the bass, viola, violin, brass buildup. It would be amazing to hear the Turkish March, followed by the galloping strings, and then climaxing with a full on, orchestral assault on the Ode to Joy theme.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Nobody significant has complained about the finale of Beethoven's Ninth for almost 200 years.

I have never seen one word that Furtwängler, Toscanini, Bernstein, Szell, Gardiner, Wand, Karajan or Klemperer has written, putting down the finale of Beethoven's Ninth as "inferior" to the other movements, nor have any of them released performances of the first three movements alone in protest to said inferiority.

I'm happy with the symphony. I wish an alternative instrumental finale was provided. It wasn't. I'm at peace with that.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> But that's not your judgment - what do YOU think about the movement? How do you react to it?


Mutely.

Who do you think I am?

My role in such a situation is to listen with humility, not to judge. I do well just to have some idea what's going on.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

science said:


> Mutely.
> 
> Who do you think I am?
> 
> My role in such a situation is to listen with humility, not to judge. I do well just to have some idea what's going on.


It makes perfect sense that Beethoven would know best and would be able to judge his works the best. But at the same time, through quotes of Beethoven we can tell that even he thought more highly of certain works of his than others. So I don't think we can imagine that just because he is Beethoven, every movement of every work can be at his 100% best level. So even with limited musical knowledge, I think listeners can pick out in a lot of cases what is a greater work between two. For instance I don't know much about the technicalities of music but I know Beethoven's "Archduke" piano trio is a greater work than his Op. 1 No 1 piano trio.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Dustin said:


> It makes perfect sense that Beethoven would know best and would be able to judge his works the best. But at the same time, through quotes of Beethoven we can tell that even he thought more highly of certain works of his than others. So I don't think we can imagine that just because he is Beethoven, every movement of every work can be at his 100% best level. So even with limited musical knowledge, I think listeners can pick out in a lot of cases what is a greater work between two. For instance I don't know much about the technicalities of music but I know Beethoven's "Archduke" piano trio is a greater work than his Op. 1 No 1 piano trio.


I have to leave judgments of things like that to people like Beethoven.

In some fields I feel like I have enough expertise to hazard my own opinions, but not in music.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Composers may have their own opinions, and they may be different from ours...or not. "One evening when B. was in a good humor, Kueffner began: `Tell me frankly which is your favorite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humor) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.' "

Beethoven also claimed the 8th was "better" than the 7th, although how serious he was it is difficult to tell. I don't know of any claims he made for the 9th, but he was obviously more than a little fond of it.

I don't think composers are infallible when judging the worth of their own works.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

KenOC said:


> I don't think composers are infallible when judging the worth of their own works.


But is anyone infallible about anything?

Einstein was evidently not quite infallible, but I'm not the one to critique his math.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Composers may have their own opinions, and they may be different from ours...or not. "One evening when B. was in a good humor, Kueffner began: `Tell me frankly which is your favorite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humor) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.' "
> 
> Beethoven also claimed the 8th was "better" than the 7th, although how serious he was it is difficult to tell. I don't know of any claims he made for the 9th, but he was obviously more than a little fond of it.
> 
> I don't think composers are infallible when judging the worth of their own works.


I'm sure Beethoven also claimed his 3rd to be his best symphony at one time.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

science said:


> But is anyone infallible about anything?


You dare question my infallibility to create divine posts such as this one I am writing up now in response to your question!


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

science said:


> I have to leave judgments of things like that to people like Beethoven.
> 
> In some fields I feel like I have enough expertise to hazard my own opinions, but not in music.


So when listening to Beethoven, you never think about how much you like the work? By determining how much you like it, you are judging it.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

science said:


> Mutely.
> 
> Who do you think I am?
> 
> My role in such a situation is to listen with humility, not to judge. I do well just to have some idea what's going on.


Why?

Discernment is a_ positive_ thing.

In everyday life one differentiates mediocrity from excellence, vice from virtue, stupidity from intelligence, sickness from health, and beauty from ugliness.

It gives us a rich and vibrant appreciation for what life can and ought to be, for each and every one of us.

Why stop the parade?-- join.

I'll be on the float with the baton._ ;D _


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

No, it's greater than the other three.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Why?
> 
> Discernment is a_ positive_ thing.
> 
> ...


If I did judge, I wouldn't respect my own opinion. Why bother?

I'm here to learn. Maybe someday I'll be qualified to give an opinion of some weight.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

science said:


> If I did judge, I wouldn't respect my own opinion. Why bother?
> 
> I'm here to learn. Maybe someday I'll be qualified to give an opinion of some weight.


"_Know_ Thyself" and "_Respect _Thyself"-- those are my maxims.

Anything else is just a step_ down _from that float. . . . . . . and wind in the chimes, of course.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I think I have plenty of respect for myself.... Too much probably!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

science said:


> I think I have plenty of respect for myself.... Too much probably!


Is that _possible_?-- in principle.

For me, anyway.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Thing is, I'm too much of a snob in things I know about to respect my opinion in things I don't.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

science said:


> Thing is, I'm too much of a snob in things I know about to respect my opinion in things I don't.


So what can you tell me about the epistemological problems of economics?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Marschallin Blair said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> So what can you tell me about the epistemological problems of economics?


Also not my field!

You wanna talk theology?

Actually, I think I know enough about literature to have some confidence in my judgment.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

science said:


> Also not my field!
> 
> You wanna talk theology?
> 
> Actually, I think I know enough about literature to have some confidence in my judgment.


Do I want to talk about the unknowable in the terms of the not-worth-knowing?-- not really.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Do I want to talk about the unknowable in the terms of the not-worth-knowing?-- not really.


That's too bad. I own most theology discussions outside of academic contexts.

I rock me some Maximus the Confessor, a little bit of Ephrem the Syrian, boom boom boom boom boom, and like that it's over.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I'm sure Beethoven also claimed his 3rd to be his best symphony at one time.


A wise choice.  I like the second movement of the 9th but nothing is better than the first movement of the 3rd.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

DeepR said:


> A wise choice.  I like the second movement of the 9th but nothing is better than the first movement of the 3rd.


I don't know.. The last movement of the 5th and the first and second movement of the 6th are really close contenders!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

science said:


> If I did judge, I wouldn't respect my own opinion. Why bother?
> 
> I'm here to learn. Maybe someday I'll be qualified to give an opinion of some weight.


I'm not sure respect is apposite here or that folks necessarily want or expect something weighty from you. Sometimes people want to hear what you like because they just want to know you a little. But If the woman with the baton can't coax something out of you I'm not even going to try


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