# Symphonic Instrumentation



## Konrad (Oct 25, 2020)

Classic symphonic works I have studied were originally scored for a specific number of instruments. For example, Beethoven's 5th called for two horns and two trumpets (among other instruments, of course). Would a modern symphony with more players and larger sections keep to this instrumentation, or would the conductor typically choose to double the parts? Two horns seems like a small section to me, but my same question would apply to the other brass and to the woodwinds.

In short, do modern performances replicate the number of instruments common in the composer's time, or play the parts with larger sections?

Thanks. --Konrad


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## Konrad (Oct 25, 2020)

I just saw Bernstein conducting the 5th with four horns. I'm still interested in comments and opinions on this topic.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Generally, conductors stick to the original instrumentation....but there are notable exceptions...Beethoven symphonies being prime examples.
I remember hearing Ormandy/PhilaOrch performing LvB #7 with 5 horns - 2 on first, 3 on second....then Szell did it with 6 horns (Szell always liked loud horns!!)...
I remember a TV concert of Beethoven Sym #9, Vonk/StLouis in which all the woodwinds were 2bled....imo, this was not successful....a heavy, thick cluttered sound resulted, a lot of detail, esp in mvt 1, was obscured.
With the advent of the HIP movement, smaller string sections are being used for classical works, which reduces the need for excessively enhanced wind sections.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Mahler the conductor was famous for changing (augmenting) instrumentation of many scores, Beethoven included


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

In Beethoven's time, strings were made of animal gut lacking the brilliance and power of the later high tension steel wound strings. For that reason, it became necessary to make the winds louder without destroying timbre, so the natural thing to do was add players. Then there's the increasing size of string sections. My own instrument, the bassoon, is a particularly interesting case. The bassoon in Beethoven's time was a loud, obnoxious sounding thing with some resemblance to a saxophone. When the instrument was refined throughout the 19th C. one of the trade offs was power. The beautiful, round sound that is now the norm can't cut through like the older instruments, so some conductors, notably Karajan, started doubling the bassoon parts in tutti passages. I play with one orchestra where four bassoons is standard practice. Not only are a lot of French scores written for four, but we double up in Tchaikovsky in particular. We also add a contrabassoon to some pieces that there isn't a part, the Beethoven 7th is one. It helps to solidify the bass line and there are a lot of scores out there that utilize the low-C extension on the double bass, but few amateurs have that on their instrument - hence the contra.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> In Beethoven's time, strings were made of animal gut lacking the brilliance and power of the later high tension steel wound strings. For that reason, it became necessary to make the winds louder without destroying timbre, so the natural thing to do was add players. Then there's the increasing size of string sections. My own instrument, the bassoon, is a particularly interesting case. The bassoon in Beethoven's time was a loud, obnoxious sounding thing with some resemblance to a saxophone. When the instrument was refined throughout the 19th C. one of the trade offs was power. The beautiful, round sound that is now the norm can't cut through like the older instruments, so some conductors, notably Karajan, started doubling the bassoon parts in tutti passages. I play with one orchestra where four bassoons is standard practice. Not only are a lot of French scores written for four, but we double up in Tchaikovsky in particular. We also add a contrabassoon to some pieces that there isn't a part, the Beethoven 7th is one. It helps to solidify the bass line and there are a lot of scores out there that utilize the low-C extension on the double bass, but few amateurs have that on their instrument - hence the contra.


Interesting, in professional situation, I've never encountered the enhanced bassoon section for 2 parts...some works call for a big bassoon section -Berlioz, Strauss, Verdi, Mahler, etc....one conductor at Eastman wanted to 2ble the woodwinds in the "Eroica", but we convinced him that it was unnecessary.
Khatchaturian came to Eastman in late 60s he wanted ALL winds 2bled!! Brass, WWs, everything...of course, he was losing his hearing, and he had just come from Chicago, where it was loud as hell....
I know that post WWII, orchestras got much louder...the brass really pushed it (Chicago, NYPO, NBC), and string sections grew correspondingly....Heckel began producing instruments with bigger bore, bigger tone holes to produce more sound....I've heard of pre-war Heckels 6, 7, 8000 series instruments being rebored to bring up the projection....I play a 12k series, which projects through most anything...


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Your comment about conductor's hearing is really important - what you hear on the podium is NOT what the audience hears. Sometimes when I conduct the winds seem buried and can hardly be heard - but people in the hall say they can hear everything just fine. Those great Heckels can project but in amateur and even semi-pro groups those instruments are rare, at least in my part of the world. Most people play on Fox instruments like the model 1 or 2 which, lovely as they are, aren't Heckels. Some players have the 601 and do a lot better.

The other issue why we often double bassoon parts is that some players are older amateurs who just can't play a long concert without tiring!


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## Konrad (Oct 25, 2020)

Thanks for all the responses! Considering how string sections have grown in size—for example 3-4 violas at the end of the 18th century to 12 now—it would seem logical to increase the number of players in the wind sections.

The most interesting thing here for me is that there does not seem to be a single answer that applies to every orchestra and conductor.

--Konrad


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Konrad said:


> Thanks for all the responses! Considering how string sections have grown in size-for example 3-4 violas at the end of the 18th century to 12 now-it would seem logical to increase the number of players in the wind sections.


In the professional ranks, the number of players is NOT increased, except on rare occasions (ie - horns in LvB 7)...modern instrument technology/construction provides powerful instruments that produce lots of sound. Still, tho, there are, as you say, many different approaches between conductors and orchestras



> The most interesting thing here for me is that there does not seem to be a single answer that applies to every orchestra and conductor.


Balance is really crucial, and the great conductors devote much time and attention to it....Toscanini. for one, spent lots of rehearsal time getting the balances right - between sections, and within sections...balance is a major factor in orchestral performance -


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Your comment about conductor's hearing is really important - what you hear on the podium is NOT what the audience hears. Sometimes when I conduct the winds seem buried and can hardly be heard - but people in the hall say they can hear everything just fine.


Any fine conductor I've worked with at some point goes out in the hall, to hear what's coming thru...the experienced ones seem to be able to "interpolate" pretty accurately what is coming thru from their position on the podium.


> Those great Heckels can project but in amateur and even semi-pro groups those instruments are rare, at least in my part of the world. Most people play on Fox instruments like the model 1 or 2 which, lovely as they are, aren't Heckels. Some players have the 601 and do a lot better.


Also, the reed/vocal setup tends to be considerably short of ideal. Amateur players struggle with reeds [pros do, too lol!!)



> The other issue why we often double bassoon parts is that some players are older amateurs who just can't play a long concert without tiring!


Oh, good point...esp if they are playing on thick, heavy, "barky" commercial reeds...those monsters are killers....I can't play 16 measures on those things!! Lol!!


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

If it were only a matter of balance between the sections, orchestras could just reduce the number of string instruments... But the halls have grown huge! They demand louder orchestras than at Ludwig's time. So playing with the original number of winds is possible rather on occasions when the hall is smaller - and then you can even take instruments from the classical period. For instance a pre-Boehm flute is unreasonable in a post-romantic hall and orchestra.

Possibly because of that, scores are sometimes adapted to modern habits. The score I have for Schumann's rheinische symphony writes no trombone at all, only 2 natural trumpets and 4 natural horns, but at all performances I see trombones.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I played a gig in Mexico a couple of years ago and stupidly left my reed case in the hotel. But experience payed off: I always keep back up reeds for that reason - a commercial "barky" and a Legere. I chose the latter because it can sure put out the power, but oh, was I tired. It takes so much lung power and lip control! People wonder why bassoonists and oboists are seemingly always working on reeds. But we players know!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Enthalpy said:


> Possibly because of that, scores are sometimes adapted to modern habits. The score I have for Schumann's rheinische symphony writes no trombone at all, only 2 natural trumpets and 4 natural horns, but at all performances I see trombones.


No trombones in Schumann #3?? You're kidding??!!
"Rhenish" has a (in)famous trombone part, in mvt IV, where he first introduces the 'bones. The long legato, high tessitura melodic line features trombone I soaring up to a high Eb....well-known audition lick...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> I played a gig in Mexico a couple of years ago and stupidly left my reed case in the hotel. But experience payed off: I always keep back up reeds for that reason - a commercial "barky" and a Legere. I chose the latter because it can sure put out the power, but oh, was I tired. It takes so much lung power and lip control! People wonder why bassoonists and oboists are seemingly always working on reeds. But we players know!


Yes, those heavy things are murder..plus, you can't play soft...pianissimo entrances are nearly impossible...I remember when we used NEC or BU students to cover extra bassoon parts - they'd be busily scraping away, taking off literally, pounds of cane from their reeds...big, heavy, Stuffy things that didn't produce much sound....


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> The bassoon in Beethoven's time was a loud, obnoxious sounding thing with some resemblance to a saxophone.


I'm sorry, but this is just totally false.

The classical-era bassoon was much softer than any 20th c. bassoon, certainly not "obnoxious sounding," and nothing like a saxophone which of course came later. The entire history of the development of the bassoon is basically trying to make it louder without compromising its characteristic sound, essentially a futile task.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

By the way, doubling instruments doesn't increase the loudness much at all. Twenty bassoons are barely louder than two, and ten horns barely louder than four. For loudness to increase proportionally the sound waves of every instrument doubled would have to be perfectly in phase, which in practical terms is not possible.

One of the issues is that loudness is product of multiple factors, not just the amplitude of the wave.

Oddly enough, one of the big advantages of a large string section is that it can play _softer_. A full professional string section can play softer than a string quartet. Safety in numbers being the reason.


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## Konrad (Oct 25, 2020)

Thanks again, everyone, for the excellent discussion. Since I much likely to write symphonic music than to conduct someone else's, I will score for the desired numbers and let the maestro take it from there.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Knorf said:


> By the way, doubling instruments doesn't increase the loudness much at all. Twenty bassoons are barely louder than two, and ten horns barely louder than four. For loudness to increase proportionally the sound waves of every instrument doubled would have to be perfectly in phase, which in practical terms is not possible.


Yes, that's my impression as well....adding instruments quickly becomes an issue of diminishing returns



> Oddly enough, one of the big advantages of a large string section is that it can play _softer_. A full professional string section can play softer than a string quartet. Safety in numbers being the reason.


True, but the conductor must insist on super soft playing....all too often, musicians get into the "mezzo-mezzo" state of mind...nothing really loud, Nothing really soft, everything in the comfortable mezzo-middle range.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> True, but the conductor must insist on super soft playing....all too often, musicians get into the "mezzo-mezzo" state of mind...nothing really loud, Nothing really soft, everything in the comfortable mezzo-middle range.


Og, don't I know it. I hate this.

I mean, we bassoonists have to work _so effing hard_ to get what feels like a miniscule dynamic range. Instruments with big, easy dynamic ranges being lazy really bug me.


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> No trombones in Schumann #3?? You're kidding??!!
> "Rhenish" has a (in)famous trombone part, in mvt IV, where he first introduces the 'bones. The long legato, high tessitura melodic line features trombone I soaring up to a high Eb....well-known audition lick...


Thanks for correcting this! I had downloaded only the first movement to check how Schumann wrote the French horns.

Indeed, Schumann demanded 3 trombones but let them idle during the mov 1, 2 and 3. So the performances I looked follow the score.


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