# Indisputably great singers



## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

The term 'great' is incessantly bandied around with regard to certain opera singers born in the period spanning roughly the late 1910s to the early 1940s. I often find myself as describing singers as 'great', but do I (and others) overuse it? Who are, in your opinion_s_, the *greatest* singers from this era.

I think Callas (and Sutherland) will feature on most people's lists; I anticipate that Domingo and Pavarotti will he high up, too. Which singers are on par with them, and why?


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I think the singers you've listed are all sound choices for 'the greatest" but, of course, that's just my opinion. I'm going to take the question slightly differently, as "singers whom _everyone_ seems to love." I have honestly never heard anyone say they dislike Robert Merrill. He seems to be a singer with no controversial element; everyone seems to enjoy his singing, even while admitting that he wasn't the deepest interpreter.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Not a period that was rich in great singers, so I may have to dispute your use of 'indisputably'! Still, there was the great Gerard Souzay:






I think he has a mellifluous quality which had become unfashionable or at least uncommon by the 1950s, and he combined a beautiful melodic line with a real sensitivity for the verse. I've chosen Winterreise for the above link because my number 1 choice - Faure's L'horizon chimerique- wasn't available to view on mobiles but it's probably his most finely realised performance. I love the tenderness of Diane, Selene and the heartbreak of Vaisseaux, nous vous aurons aimés. I think he's pretty underrated as a lieder singer- it's there that his musicianship and charm (if that's not a dirty word!) were most in need at that time of sad decline. Here he is again, singing ravishingly in Nacht und Träume:






And my personal favourite, a song by Reynaldo Hahn, a true Golden Age figure if ever there was one. I for one would love to be serenaded like this! Who could do justice to a song like La Barcheta today?






Also, I know this isn't the 'singers you fancy' thread, but it would be remiss of me not to point out that he was stunningly handsome also.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Not a period that was rich in great singers,


Born between 1910 and 1940? Oh I don't know. Apart from Callas and Sutherland who have already been mentioned, these are just a few off the top of my head.

Schwarzkopf
De Los Angeles
Nilsson
Tebaldi
Caballe
Janowitz
Seefried
Horne
Simionato
Janet Baker
Ludwig
Gedda
Vickers
Bjoerling
Kraus
Gobbi
Fischer-Dieskau
Christoff

I don't like all these singers (I'm not a big Sutherland fan for that matter), but I wouldn't dispute their "greatness".


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

I've got another very good one, if not indisputably great- more like totally unknown this side of the Iron Curtain. About 20 years ago I picked up an Electrecord LP from the 60s of Romanian singers performing art songs by Romanian composers. All were good, but one was outstanding: the lyric tenor Ion Piso, singing Enescu's Sept Chansons de Clement Marot. He had a sensitivity and an ability to colour the voice that would be rare at any time. God knows what happened to that LP: I moved home about four times between university and my son's first birthday, and you can't keep track of everything.  I did finally track down what I thought was a CD reissue of Piso's Sept Chansons, but it proved to be a different, French language version, which lacked much of the nuance I remember hearing when the tenor was singing in his native tongue. It's still pretty good:






Piso's other recordings that I've heard are some pleasant but fairly unexceptional performances of the usual arias, plus a CD of Neapolitan songs of which the less said the better! He published a book not long ago, which indicates that he is probably still in the land of the living. His Romanian song recordings are well worth seeking out.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Born between 1910 and 1940? Oh I don't know. Apart from Callas and Sutherland who have already been mentioned, these are just a few off the top of my head.
> 
> Schwarzkopf
> De Los Angeles
> ...


You're right: no sooner do I publicly opine that there are no great singers in a certain era, than I suddenly start thinking of names! I'll grant you Baker, Gedda, Björling of course, Christoff if you like imitation Chaliapin, and some of Fischer Dieskau's oeuvre. The rest are a mixture of singers I don't like and those ( more numerous) whom I don't know enough about to comment on. You left out Alain Vanzo, Gabriel Bacquier and Peter Schreier! Quite a long list for a period without any great singers (!):lol: No doubt more will occur to me now I've started thinking.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

what's the point of trying to narrow down taste? When I was very young I bought a Callas compilation and listened dutifully. I liked some of the stuff but was largely unmoved. I wrote opera off for another decade.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Let me throw in Elisabeth Grummer. Exquisite lady, never bettered as Agathe and Eva (at the very least), who sang with perfect taste and a clarity of diction one rarely hears from a soprano. One in the great line of German lyric sopranos that may have a current member, if someone would be kind enough to point her out to me.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

There are no indisputably great singers, for the simple reason that it assumes that everybody on earth who loves opera singing will agree on the greatness of a specific artist, and that simply isn't going to happen.

I would say Kirsten Flagstad singing Brünnhilde is as good as it gets, but I'm sure someone would come along and tell me I'm nuts for saying that.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Wunderlich. Frick


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

hpowders said:


> There are no indisputably great singers, for the simple reason that it assumes that everybody on earth who loves opera singing will agree on the greatness of a specific artist, and that simply isn't going to happen.
> 
> I would say Kirsten Flagstad singing Brünnhilde is as good as it gets, but I'm sure someone would come along and tell me I'm nuts for saying that.


Well, as I said, there are plenty of singers I don't personally like or respond to, but I would still not dispute their greatness.

Nor would I call you nuts for singling out Flagstad as Brunnhilde, though there are others I better respond to in the role, Leider for one. Both were, I would say, indisputably great singers, only I prefer Leider and you Flagstad.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Itullian said:


> Wunderlich. Frick


How could I possibly have forgotten Wunderlich?!!! Abject apologies to Fritz.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

deggial said:


> what's the point of trying to narrow down taste? When I was very young I bought a Callas compilation and listened dutifully. I liked some of the stuff but was largely unmoved. I wrote opera off for another decade.


Fortunately she had the opposite effect on millions of others.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> Fortunately she had the opposite effect on millions of others.


And will again in about 5 days.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I recently listened to Hermann Uhde sing Telramund in the live Bayreuth Lohengrin under Jochum. I remembered him as a great vocal actor from his neurotic Klingsor, but this time around I was struck by the pinging clarity and focus of his voice and his ability to draw a clean, well-supported legato line even while acting brilliantly. Singing such as this one rarely hears in this repertoire. His Dutchman and Klingsor may be the best on records; he seemed to specialize in villains and "character" parts, I suspect because his sound had such a "bite" to it, but to sound evil and sing beautifully is quite an achievement. He would have been a fabulous Wozzeck. I want to hear more of him.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Ridderbusch, Van Dam


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eileen Farrell. A great dramatic soprano voice fully up to Verdi's and Wagner's demands - even if she wasn't very serious about opera for very long. Too bad.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

London, Hotter, Talvela, Krause


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Christa Ludwig. Unmistakeable sound, superb artist, incredibly versatile. Sometimes she's my favorite mezzo, especially in song. Her voice was made for Brahms: when she does his songs with viola, its almost as if she's showing the viola how it should sound. And her Alto Rhapsody! Right up there with Ferrier and Baker. And her Wesendonck Lieder! And her Das Lied von der Erde! And...

Sorry.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I think the singers you've listed are all sound choices for 'the greatest" but, of course, that's just my opinion. I'm going to take the question slightly differently, as "singers whom _everyone_ seems to love." I have honestly never heard anyone say they dislike Robert Merrill. He seems to be a singer with no controversial element; everyone seems to enjoy his singing, even while admitting that he wasn't the deepest interpreter.


Nobody hates Merrill because he's too boring to bother hating! I'm happy to eat my words (again) if someone can post a link to a really fantastic bit of singing that isn't remotely dull.


----------



## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Nobody's mentioned Beniamino Gigli?

He's my favorite singer, such a gorgeous voice. One of the absolute masters of Bel Canto. He is indisputably great, whether you like his affected sobs or not. He was the successor to Caruso and I don't think it's very controversial to say he lived up to it. Ok, maybe a little, haha, but I stand by it!! :tiphat:

I also love Caruso, Schipa, and Gedda.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Nobody hates Merrill because he's too boring to bother hating! I'm happy to eat my words (again) if someone can post a link to a really fantastic bit of singing that isn't remotely dull.


His best work was recording the National Anthem for NY Yankee games.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Nobody's mentioned Beniamino Gigli?
> 
> He's my favorite singer, such a gorgeous voice. One of the absolute masters of Bel Canto. He is indisputably great, whether you like his affected sobs or not. He was the successor to Caruso and I don't think it's very controversial to say he lived up to it. Ok, maybe a little, haha, but I stand by it!! :tiphat:
> 
> I also love Caruso, Schipa, and Gedda.


I think Caruso, Schipa and Gigli are a bit long in the tooth to fit the OP's criteria of singers born 1910-1940, unless I read it wrong. Gedda's a good one though, he's made some nice song recordings and probably much more besides.

Gigli, though- indisputable? I think I might dispute those sobs and intrusive aspirates, though if you're a fan, fair enough. I know very well how eminently forgivable a favourite tenor's foibles can be- not that my favourites have any such things 

Sometimes Gigli can surprise me in a good way. I heard part of Cavalleria with him and Lina Bruna Rasa and he was pretty darn good.


----------



## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I think Caruso, Schipa and Gigli are a bit long in the tooth to fit the OP's criteria of singers born 1910-1940, unless I read it wrong. Gedda's a good one though, he's made some nice song recordings and probably much more besides.
> 
> Gigli, though- indisputable? I think I might dispute those sobs and intrusive aspirates, though if you're a fan, fair enough. I know very well how eminently forgivable a favourite tenor's foibles can be- not that my favourites have any such things
> 
> Sometimes Gigli can surprise me in a good way. I heard part of Cavalleria with him and Lina Bruna Rasa and he was pretty darn good.


Oops, haha, didn't catch that, exactly 20 years too late for Gigli!

Gigli is regularly cited as among the greatest (tenors). Sobs notwithstanding.  I definitely understand his style isn't for everyone, though.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Fortunately she had the opposite effect on millions of others.


that's obviously true, but the fact that it didn't work with some (I'm sure I'm not the only one) makes her and (everybody else) disputable


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Nobody hates Merrill because he's too boring to bother hating! I'm happy to eat my words (again) if someone can post a link to a really fantastic bit of singing that isn't remotely dull.


This is sort of what I was saying, in fact -- that Merrill is a singer you may not get extremely excited about, but also one that it's difficult to "hate." I can't link to it, but I own a 1940's recording of Merrill singing the Drinking Song from Thomas's HAMLET which I think is just perfect. It's taken at a rather slow tempo, and partly because of this and partly because of Merrill's dark tone the melancholic aspect of the song really comes through, especially in the minor-key middle section. His Germont with Sutherland is quite spontaneous-sounding dramatically. Again, I don't claim that Merrill was a highly dramatic singer, and I agree that he can seem downright dull in some recordings (e.g. his two Escamillos in CARMEN), but his singing as such always gives me great pleasure. And another reason I'm fond of him is that he seems to have had a totally affable, likeable personality, which somehow always comes across in his singing. Like I said -- a singer who may not thrill you, but one whom it's hard actually to dislike.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

deggial said:


> that's obviously true, but the fact that it didn't work with some (I'm sure I'm not the only one) makes her and (everybody else) disputable


I don't agree at all. Sutherland doesn't do it for me. I don't however dispute her greatness. Whether you like her or not, Callas was an indisputably great singer. You don't get her. That is your loss, just as it is no doubt mine that I don't really get Sutherland.

But I might have guessed that a thread such as this would just be an excuse for the Callas haters to get their knives out again.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

You got me wrong. I actually have come to enjoy Callas quite a bit. That being said, I don't believe in indisputable greatness as defined by the OP.


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

^^^ yes, I am still puzzled by this as well.

I also don't much like Sutherland, though I recognise that she is a great (and much loved) opera singer, but I feel no need to lob granades at her reputation or at those who like her singing.

Perhaps we need an automated rule that sends nonsense (such as I don't get <named person> therefore he/she isn't great) directly to the bin


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

deggial said:


> You got me wrong. I actually have come to enjoy Callas quite a bit. That being said, I don't believe in indisputable greatness as defined by the OP.


We have to decide on what we mean here by "indisputable." There's nothing in the universe that can't be and hasn't been disputed by someone. I can agree with my benighted ancestors and claim vociferously that the earth is a flat disc and that if you don't watch your step you'll fall off the edge of it. By this criterion nothing is indisputable. Obviously this definition is not useful and can't be what the OP has in mind.

The only meaningful definition of indisputable has to assume that there are some objective or universally applicable criteria involved. The OP's question has to imply "What singers have qualities and abilities which make them the best at what they do?"
Put this way, the question allows for individual taste but recognizes excellence even in singers we may not like. As Greg said, he may not care for Sutherland's singing but can still recognize her as a great singer.

Certainly many people enjoy singers without much understanding of the technical and artistic accomplishments that make those singers enjoyable to them. There's nothing wrong with that; most things we appreciate are more or less outside our fields of knowledge and expertise. That doesn't negate the existence of knowledge and expertise.

There really is such a thing as great operatic singing, and some singers are, in that sense, indisputably great.


----------



## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

I meant indisputable *from one's own point of view*. There's not a single book or ice cream flavour that *everyone* loves - why would it be different for the greatness of singers?

And I refer to not just their singing, but the contribution that they made to opera. There is no doubt in my mind, for example, that Leontyne Price, Christa Ludwig, Edda Moser, Tatiana Troyanos, Renato Bruson, Janet Baker and Robert Merrill were _great_ singers. Take the four singers I mentioned at the beginning; not everyone likes them, but I think everyone here would agree that Callas, Sutherland, Pavarotti and Domingo all made significant, nay almost unparalleled, contributions to the operatic world.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

BaronScarpia said:


> I meant indisputable *from one's own point of view*. There's not a single book or ice cream flavour that *everyone* loves - why would it be different for the greatness of singers?
> 
> And I refer to not just their singing, but the contribution that they made to opera. There is no doubt in my mind, for example, that Leontyne Price, Christa Ludwig, Edda Moser, Tatiana Troyanos, Renato Bruson, Janet Baker and Robert Merrill were _great_ singers. Take the four singers I mentioned at the beginning; not everyone likes them, but I think everyone here would agree that Callas, Sutherland, Pavarotti and Domingo all made significant, nay almost unparalleled, contributions to the operatic world.


With that qualification: Jussi Björling, Kirsten Flagstad, Jon Vickers, Alexander Kipnis, Kurt Moll, Rosa Ponselle, Janet Baker, José van Dam and Kathleen Ferrier.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BaronScarpia said:


> I meant indisputable *from one's own point of view*.


How can it be indisputable *from one's own point of view*? You're hardly going to have a dispute with yourself. Unless you're schizophrenic!


----------



## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Nobody hates Merrill because he's too boring to bother hating! I'm happy to* eat my words *(again) if someone can post a *link to a really fantastic bit of singing that isn't remotely dull*.


Bring the ketchup!

As Amonasro in Solti's "Aida" (with Leontyne Price's superb Aida):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC3P-q2_Tf0#t=5938

As Michele in Gardelli's "Il tabarro":





As Enrico in Pritchard's "Lucia di Lammermoor" (Sutherland's 1st studio recording) - a role Merrill reportedly didn't like much, but it sure doesn't show in his singing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OFvIQgLUAw#t=463

Often, one sees the term "singing actor" used to describe artists who may not have had the best voice, nor the best vocal technique, but who compensate by other factors, such as on-stage credibility, intensity and acting skills, both with the voice and with the body.

Merrill had nothing to compensate for in terms of voice or technique. Still, few singers have been taken more for granted. He may not have been the most vivid interpreter, but he was surely one of the finest vocalists ever in his repertory. In my view, that makes him one of the all-time greats.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> How can it be indisputable *from one's own point of view*? You're hardly going to have a dispute with yourself. *Unless you're schizophrenic!*


Yes?????


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> How can it be indisputable *from one's own point of view*? You're hardly going to have a dispute with yourself. Unless you're schizophrenic!


One and every two people is schizophrenic. . . sometimes more.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

OperaGeek said:


> Bring the ketchup!
> 
> As Amonasro in Solti's "Aida" (with Leontyne Price's superb Aida):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC3P-q2_Tf0#t=5938
> ...


I also remember hearing a Met broadcast from way before I was born -- an AIDA from, I believe, 1959 -- in which Merrill was Amonasro. As he was singing his solo in the Triumphal Scene I actually had tears running down my face, mostly because his voice was so beautiful but also because he sang with a degree of passion that seems to have eluded him in some of his studio recordings.

I think, too, that we have to be careful lest we end up undervaluing good singing -- i.e. singing with solid and, yes, attractive tone and fine legato -- because it comes from an artist whom we happen to find less than dramatically exciting. This, I feel, can lead to a sort of "more dramatic than thou" pretentiousness. We shouldn't get the cart before the horse, so to speak, but should keep in mind that the vocal qualities Merrill (for example) had that OperaGeek refers to are really the very basis of the operatic art. Without them, how expressive or "exciting" can a singer really be, in the long run?


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> How can it be indisputable *from one's own point of view*? You're hardly going to have a dispute with yourself. Unless you're schizophrenic!


it is easier for those who have little idea of what they are talking about, I suppose :devil:


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Yes?????


erm ... like the person who enjoys Beethoven subsequently labelling him ponderous :devil:

(((not to be read as linked to the previous post! Seriously!)))


----------



## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> How can it be indisputable *from one's own point of view*? You're hardly going to have a dispute with yourself. Unless you're schizophrenic!


Rather offensive towards those suffering mental health issues, I must say, but anyway:

You do not dispute Callas's greatness. Others do. Ergo, from your point of view, Maria Callas was, indisputably, a great singer.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by GregMitchell
> 
> How can it be indisputable from one's own point of view? You're hardly going to have a dispute with yourself. Unless you're schizophrenic!





BaronScarpia said:


> Rather offensive towards those suffering mental health issues, I must say, but anyway:
> 
> You do not dispute Callas's greatness. Others do. Ergo, from your point of view, Maria Callas was, indisputably, a great singer.


Nothing of the sort. The statement made was merely analytical and not evaluational.


----------



## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Nothing of the sort. The statement made was merely analytical and not evaluational.


I beg to differ, but we are digressing!


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

BaronScarpia said:


> I beg to differ, but we are digressing!


Okay.

But you're only entitled to your own opinions, and not to your own facts.

_;D_


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> One and every two people is schizophrenic. . . sometimes more.


*. . . Sometimes more.

*Hmmm, is that more than one out of two people is schizophrenic -- or those who are schizophrenic sometimes have more than two conflicting distinct behaviors? LOL.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BaronScarpia said:


> Rather offensive towards those suffering mental health issues, I must say, but anyway:
> 
> You do not dispute Callas's greatness. Others do. Ergo, from your point of view, Maria Callas was, indisputably, a great singer.


What MB said.

But in addition, I'm sorry, but I have to say it again, those who dispute Callas's greatness probably know very little about music or singing. They may not like her, but she was indisputably a great singer.

Now I don't particularly like Sutherland, but I do think she was indisputably a great singer. Or does it not work that way round?


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> What MB said.
> 
> But in addition, I'm sorry, but I have to say it again, those who dispute Callas's greatness probably know very little about music or singing. They may not like her, but she was indisputably a great singer.
> 
> Now I don't particularly like Sutherland, but I do think she was indisputably a great singer. Or does it not work that way round?


-- Now that's what one calls a candid, fair, and honest assessment.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

PetrB said:


> *. . . Sometimes more.
> 
> *Hmmm, is that more than one out of two people is schizophrenic -- or those who are schizophrenic sometimes have more than two conflicting distinct behaviors? LOL.


I really wouldn't know, as I'm merely the Super Model.

It's other people's job to be witty, entertaining, and intellectual.

Perhaps Woodduck knows. _;D_


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Régine Crespin ~ often so effortless sounding that you could forget it is the result of incredible technique and control.

Hans Hotter (I think before mentioned) ~ ideal lied singing, made it sound like someone singing was talking to you, deeply expressive.

Léopold Simoneau ~ like Frizt Wunderlich, i.e. flawless every buoyant long-line singing, and Simoneau even so in very agile configurations (aka, "Great Mozart Singer.)


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I really wouldn't know, as I'm merely the Super Model.
> 
> It's other people's job to be witty, entertaining, and intellectual.
> 
> Perhaps Woodduck knows. _;D_


Schizophrenic? Don't look at me. Or at me.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

PetrB said:


> Régine Crespin ~ often so effortless sounding that you could forget it is the result of incredible technique and control.
> 
> Hans Hotter (I think before mentioned) ~ ideal lied singing, made it sound like someone singing was talking to you, deeply expressive.
> 
> Léopold Simoneau ~ like Frizt Wunderlich, i.e. flawless every buoyant long-line singing, and Simoneau even so in very agile configurations (aka, "Great Mozart Singer.)


God, aren't both the early-sixties Marschallin and the late-sixties Marschallin of hers silvery-intoned-legato wonderful? I really love her handle on Massenet as well. I'm just discovering her as it were.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I'd certainly put Crespin up there, but there is an element of detachment about her singing that suits some music better than others. In Verdi or Puccini, I sometimes feel she doesn't want to get too involved for fear of mussing her hair. Indisputably great, none the less.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I'd certainly put Crespin up there, but there is an element of detachment about her singing that suits some music better than others. In Verdi or Puccini, I sometimes feel she doesn't want to get too involved for fear of mussing her hair. Indisputably great, none the less.


Indisputably true. I mean, in my personal opinion.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Indisputably true. I mean, in my personal opinion.


Always letting off esteem.

- I like that.

_;D_


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Too bad the Russians are typically left out (for the most part). The singing tradition there has been remarkably rich and accomplished. Here are some of the names worth considering:

Irina Arkipova
Galina Vishnevskaya
Nicolai Konstantinov
Odilia Kashevarova
Sofia Preobrazhenskaya
Vitali Kilchevsky
Georgi Nelepp
Ivan Kozlovsky
Alexander Vedernikov
Vladislav Piavko
Valentina Petrova
Sergei Leiferkus
Vera Firsova
Ivan Petrov
Evgenya Verbitskaya
Sergey Lemenshev

I agree with the other names already mentioned, although I would add (or reiterate):

Beverly Sills
Marilyn Horne
Montserrat Caballe
Christa Ludwig
Elisabeth Schwarzkopf
Siegfried Jerusalem
Cheryl Studer (born in 1955, but...)
Jesse Norman
Leontyne Price
Fiorenza Cossotto
Huguette Tourangeau
Shirley Verrett
Nicolai Ghiaurov
Maria Callas
Marion Anderson
Grace Melizia Bumbry
Boris Christoff
Sherrill Milnes
Carol Neblett
Hildegard Behrens
Jose Van Dam
Jose Carreras
Placido Domingo
Kiri Te Kanawa


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

*dholling*: Huguette Tourangeau is a mezzo I've always been curious about, since on recordings she seems to have sung mostly quite minor roles; I think her biggest role on records was Elizabeth I in the Bonynge MARIA STUARDA(?) She certainly had a distinctive voice, almost oboe-like. I'm just curious: what else did she do, and why do you consider her "great"?


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

dholling said:


> Too bad the Russians are typically left out (for the most part). The singing tradition there has been remarkably rich and accomplished.
> 
> I agree with the other names already mentioned, although I would add (or reiterate):


Many of the names on both your lists fall outside the OP's brief on singers born between 1910 - 1940.

Furthermore the term"Indisputably great" would suggest, to me anyway, a singer who had a considerable international career in both the opera house and on record. The first two names mentioned in the thread (Callas and Sutherland) obviously fulfill that brief. Aside from Vishnevskaya and Arkhipova, most of the Russians were unknown outside their own country because of the political climate at the time, so that could be why they are not mentioned. Of the names I recognise, Leiferkus was born (just) too late, Lemeshev, Nelepp and Koslovsky all too early.


----------



## jdcbr (Jul 21, 2014)

No one has mentioned Carlo Bergonzi, surely one of the great Italian tenors of the recording era. I would also include both Renatas- Tebaldi and Scotto, the former for her golden tone, the later for her musicianship and interpretive skills.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Many of the names on both your lists fall outside the OP's brief on singers born between 1910 - 1940.
> 
> Furthermore the term"Indisputably great" would suggest, to me anyway, a singer who had a considerable international career in both the opera house and on record. The first two names mentioned in the thread (Callas and Sutherland) obviously fulfill that brief. Aside from Vishnevskaya and Arkhipova, most of the Russians were unknown outside their own country because of the political climate at the time, so that could be why they are not mentioned. Of the names I recognise, Leiferkus was born (just) too late, Lemeshev, Nelepp and Koslovsky all too early.


I don't think I was too far off with some of the names (Nelepp born in 1904, Leiferkus 1946, but Koslovsky 1900, Lemenshev 1902, yeah I sort of see your point.) And yes, the political climate robbed these greats the potential for something (much) bigger. But nonetheless, they do deserve a mention, if not for their presence in opera houses, however limited internationally if at all, then for their recordings which are treasures indeed.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> *dholling*: Huguette Tourangeau is a mezzo I've always been curious about, since on recordings she seems to have sung mostly quite minor roles; I think her biggest role on records was Elizabeth I in the Bonynge MARIA STUARDA(?) She certainly had a distinctive voice, almost oboe-like. I'm just curious: what else did she do, and why do you consider her "great"?


Tourangeau is an excellent, very accomplished versatile opera singer, who was able to sing light and dramatic roles compellingly (and convincingly), not only in French operas, but Italian as well (she's very well thought of in her role as Elizabeth in Donizetti's "Maria Stuarda"). Her career was on par with, say Horne, perhaps Sills. As importantly, her singing in and recordings of French operas (which have been underplayed for a long time) can never be underestimated; she was crucial in her roles in the operas of Massenet and Delibes (and operettas of Offenbach), at the time when they were being considered sort of anachronistic. Her partnership with Sutherland and Bonynge was fruitful and important in their enterprise in uncovering neglected works for the stage. Her recordings are not so extensive as compared to some of her contemporaries, but her career is nothing short of stellar.


----------



## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> What MB said.
> 
> But in addition, I'm sorry, but I have to say it again, those who dispute Callas's greatness probably know very little about music or singing. They may not like her, but she was indisputably a great singer.
> 
> Now I don't particularly like Sutherland, but I do think she was indisputably a great singer. Or does it not work that way round?


I don't dispute Callas's greatness, either. In my opinion, she had some flaws. But what singer doesn't? Joan Sutherland had atrocious diction, for example. That doesn't mean they weren't great singers and nor does it mean that I can't enjoy their work.

(Sorry to revisit the discussion, everyone!)


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

BaronScarpia said:


> I don't dispute Callas's greatness, either. In my opinion, she had some flaws. But what singer doesn't? Joan Sutherland had atrocious diction, for example. That doesn't mean they weren't great singers and nor does it mean that I can't enjoy their work.
> 
> (Sorry to revisit the discussion, everyone!)


Apologies neither asked for nor required. _;D_

Intelligent, passionate exchanges are what its all about.


----------



## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Apologies neither asked for nor required. _;D_
> 
> Intelligent, passionate exchanges is what its all about.


True! It's interesting that a face-to-face conversation can flow and develop and flower (like Mahler) whereas on online forums we are limited by the title of the thread (like Bach). Not that I don't love dear JSB.


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

dholling said:


> Too bad the Russians are typically left out (for the most part). The singing tradition there has been remarkably rich and accomplished. Here are some of the names worth considering:


... and Zara Dolukhanova please - silky mezzo with real depth to her voice - astonishingly good in Shostakovich's Songs fro Jewish Folk Poetry .... and much more


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> the term"Indisputably great" would suggest, to me anyway, *a singer who had a considerable international career in both the opera house and on record* ..... Aside from Vishnevskaya and Arkhipova, most of the Russians were unknown outside their own country because of the political climate at the time, so that could be why they are not mentioned. Of the names I recognise, Leiferkus was born (just) too late, Lemeshev, Nelepp and Koslovsky all too early.


Hmm, I understand your point, Greg, and I am _almost_ inclined to go along with it, but many of the Soviet-era artists had such limited opportunities to show their talents (both in person and even on record to the 'west') that a number of 'great' artisits haven't been heard by many enthusiasts ... especially those who ignore anything that is slightly 'historical'.

I wonder how many readers of this thread have heard Zara Dolukhanova, for instance?


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Hmm, I understand your point, Greg, and I am _almost_ inclined to go along with it, but many of the Soviet-era artists had such limited opportunities to show their talents (both in person and even on record to the 'west') that a number of 'great' artisits haven't been heard by many enthusiasts ... especially those who ignore anything that is slightly 'historical'.
> 
> I wonder how many readers of this thread have heard Zara Dolukhanova, for instance?


Hint: Be a trendsetter. . . start your own._ ;D_


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Hmm, I understand your point, Greg, and I am _almost_ inclined to go along with it, but many of the Soviet-era artists had such limited opportunities to show their talents (both in person and even on record to the 'west') that a number of 'great' artisits haven't been heard by many enthusiasts ... especially those who ignore anything that is slightly 'historical'.
> 
> I wonder how many readers of this thread have heard Zara Dolukhanova, for instance?


Exactly, the world order (blame the Soviets and the West) put a a lot to things and potentials to waste because of this nonsense ideological warfare. Speaking of those I should have mentioned (besides Zara Dolukhanova), there are also Yevgeny Nesterenko and Pavel Lisitsian.

I would have love to list many other great artists like Chaliapin & Mark Osipovich Reizen, but they're outside the span I'm afraid.


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Hint: Be a trendsetter. . . start your own._ ;D_


trendsetter .... incompatable with hermitship, I'm afraid


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> I wonder how many readers of this thread have heard Zara Dolukhanova, for instance?


I have. Also Antonina Nezhdanova, but, as she was born in 1873 so well outside the brief.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It just hit me that no one has mentioned Anna Moffo. Her vocal prime may not have lasted long (I have the impression that she had some difficulties in her life that may have impacted her singing), but what she had while she had it was one of the most gorgeous voices in the business. She was a fine and versatile artist as well. One day I was combing YouTube for performances of "Qui la voce" from _I Puritani_ and finding all of them sorely lacking beside that of Callas - all of them except Moffo's, which was as beautiful a piece of singing as one could hope to hear, less tragic than Callas (partly just by virtue of vocal timbre) but, like Moffo herself, exquisite. Hers was my first Gilda on records, and I'm sad to say I've not heard her Violetta, which has been positively reviewed. She sang bel canto roles, lighter Verdi (her Nanetta in _Falstaff_ is as fine as any), and Puccini. It's really a shame her voice didn't last longer, and it would be a shame to overlook her here.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> It just hit me that no one has mentioned Anna Moffo. Her vocal prime may not have lasted long (I have the impression that she had some difficulties in her life that may have impacted her singing), but what she had while she had it was one of the most gorgeous voices in the business. She was a fine and versatile artist as well. One day I was combing YouTube for performances of "Qui la voce" from _I Puritani_ and finding all of them sorely lacking beside that of Callas - all of them except Moffo's, which was as beautiful a piece of singing as one could hope to hear, less tragic than Callas (partly just by virtue of vocal timbre) but, like Moffo herself, exquisite. Hers was my first Gilda on records, and I'm sad to say I've not heard her Violetta, which has been positively reviewed. She sang bel canto roles, lighter Verdi (her Nanetta in _Falstaff_ is as fine as any), and Puccini. It's really a shame her voice didn't last longer, and it would be a shame to overlook her here.


Thanks for remembering Moffo's "_Qui la voce_" to the world! I've got to hear it.

I absolutely _LOVE_ her Nanetta from the Karajan _Falstaff_. I think she's perfect for it in every way.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

And let me add *Shirley Verrett*, a great Afro-American mezzo-soprano very well renowned for her Verdi and Donizetti roles (although she sang in Bluebeard's Castle, Les Troyens, Tosca, among many others). Here's a moving obituary of her courtesy of Tommasini of the New York Times. 
-->http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/06/arts/music/06verrett.html?_r=0

*Martina Arroyo* and *Reri Grist* are also well worth mentioning.

And *Rita Gorr*? I wonder.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It just hit me that no one has mentioned Anna Moffo. Her vocal prime may not have lasted long (I have the impression that she had some difficulties in her life that may have impacted her singing), but what she had while she had it was one of the most gorgeous voices in the business. She was a fine and versatile artist as well. One day I was combing YouTube for performances of "Qui la voce" from _I Puritani_ and finding all of them sorely lacking beside that of Callas - all of them except Moffo's, which was as beautiful a piece of singing as one could hope to hear, less tragic than Callas (partly just by virtue of vocal timbre) but, like Moffo herself, exquisite. Hers was my first Gilda on records, and I'm sad to say I've not heard her Violetta, which has been positively reviewed. She sang bel canto roles, lighter Verdi (her Nanetta in _Falstaff_ is as fine as any), and Puccini. It's really a shame her voice didn't last longer, and it would be a shame to overlook her here.


Many will tell you her Violetta is excellent, but I'm afraid, that both on record and film, I've always felt she skates over the surface of the work's deeper emotions. She doesn't really engage. The emotions is applied, not experienced. It is a problem I've encountered with her quite a lot. It was a lovely instrument, and she was a very attractive woman, but she doesn't always escape the charge of crooning, something that becomes more and more evident in her later recordings, and finally reaches its apogee in that disastrous *Thais* she recorded.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Headphone Hermit said:


> trendsetter .... incompatable with hermitship, I'm afraid


You have taste.

People like me will sit at your feet. 
_
Advance._

_;D_


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Many will tell you her Violetta is excellent, but I'm afraid, that both on record and film, I've always felt she is skates over the surface of the work's deeper emotions. She doesn't really engage. The emotions is applied, not experienced. It is a problem I've encountered with her quite a lot. It was a lovely instrument, and she was a very attractive woman, but she doesn't always escape the charge of crooning, something that becomes more and more evident in her later recordings, and finally reaches its apogee in that disastrous *Thais* she recorded.


I have a book called _American Opera Singers and Their Recordings_, and in the chapter on Moffo the author basically says that her recorded legacy is, for the most part, excellent and valuable; however he seems to think that she should have more or less "specialized" and not tried to sing the very wide repertoire (Mozart, Donizetti, Verdi, Puccini, etc.) that she did. I wonder if Moffo declined early because the heavier roles she sang (e.g. Cio-Cio-San, Luisa Miller) were too heavy for her voice even though she sang them only on record and not on stage.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> I have a book called _American Opera Singers and Their Recordings_, and in the chapter on Moffo the author basically says that her recorded legacy is, for the most part, excellent and valuable; however he seems to think that she should have more or less "specialized" and not tried to sing the very wide repertoire (Mozart, Donizetti, Verdi, Puccini, etc.) that she did. I wonder if Moffo declined early because the heavier roles she sang (e.g. Cio-Cio-San, Luisa Miller) were too heavy for her voice even though she sang them only on record and not on stage.


She over-worked herself, and by mid-70s (74 I believe), she suffered a vocal breakdown which was serious and from which she never fully recovered.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> I have a book called _American Opera Singers and Their Recordings_, and in the chapter on Moffo the author basically says that her recorded legacy is, for the most part, excellent and valuable; however he seems to think that she should have more or less "specialized" and not tried to sing the very wide repertoire (Mozart, Donizetti, Verdi, Puccini, etc.) that she did. I wonder if Moffo declined early because the heavier roles she sang (e.g. Cio-Cio-San, Luisa Miller) were too heavy for her voice even though she sang them only on record and not on stage.


Well she started off at EMI. She sang Musetta on Callas's *La Boheme*, Nanetta and the Italian Singer in Schwarzkopf's *Capriccio*, as well of course as Susanna in the Giulini *Figaro*. She also recorded a recital, which included the *Puritani* Mad Scene Woodduck references, as well as arias by Mozart, Donizetti and Rossini. I believe it also included Violetta's Act I arias. It's a lovely disc if I remember rightly.

It is possible that some of the other Verdi and Puccini she sang was too heavy for her, but I've always liked her Luisa and prefer it to Caballe really. Moffo captures more of the simplicity of the village girl in her singing, and I ultimately find it more affecting.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

There's also Magda in _La Rondine_, a role tailor made for Moffo's sound, which exudes sweet sexiness. I may slightly prefer her to the lovely (but, to me, not so sexy) Gheorghiu in the more recent recording. But then what do I know about sexiness? (Rhetorical question.)


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

And *Lucia Popp*!!! She was ranked seventh in BBC Music magazine's list of the 20 All-time Best Sopranos in its March 2007 edition. How I overlooked her I don't know. I have several of her recordings, including Lehar's "Der Zarewitsch" and the "Count of Luxembourg", Janacek's "Jenufa" and "The Cunning Little Vixen."


----------



## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Hers was my first Gilda on records, and* I'm sad to say I've not heard her Violetta*, which has been positively reviewed. She sang bel canto roles, lighter Verdi (her Nanetta in _Falstaff_ is as fine as any), and Puccini. It's really a shame her voice didn't last longer, and it would be a shame to overlook her here.


You should definitely do something about that - her Violetta in the Previtali studio recording is very good, indeed!

Tucker and (especially) Merrill are on fine form, too, and the recording still sounds excellent - especially the three-channel SACD version, if you can still get it at a sensible price. For someone who likes Moffo, the Previtali "Traviata" is a must!


----------



## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

dholling said:


> And *Lucia Popp*!!! She was ranked seventh in BBC Music magazine's list of the 20 All-time Best Sopranos in its March 2007 edition. How I overlooked her I don't know. I have several of her recordings, including Lehar's "Der Zarewitsch" and the "Count of Luxembourg", Janacek's "Jenufa" and "The Cunning Little Vixen."


You have heard her Queen of the Night in Klemperer's "Zauberflöte"? If not, you have to - she is sensational!


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

OperaGeek said:


> You have heard her Queen of the Night in Klemperer's "Zauberflöte"? If not, you have to - she is sensational!
> 
> View attachment 51730


I must look into it. Much obliged OperaGeek for your kind reference.
:tiphat:


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

dholling said:


> And *Lucia Popp*!!! She was ranked seventh in BBC Music magazine's list of the 20 All-time Best Sopranos in its March 2007 edition. How I overlooked her I don't know. I have several of her recordings, including Lehar's "Der Zarewitsch" and the "Count of Luxembourg", Janacek's "Jenufa" and "The Cunning Little Vixen."


I heard her live a couple of times. _Vier letzte Lieder_ with Tennstedt at the Royal Festival Hall, which was a memorable evening (Tennstedt played Strauss's _Tod und Verklaerung_ as well).

Even better though was a recital with piano at the Barbican Hall. She sang Schumann's _Frauenliebe und Leben_ in the first half, and a selection of Strauss songs in the second. Her stage personality was absolutely disarming. Even in a large auditorium like the Barbican, she had the ability to make you feel as if you were a group of friends she had invited around for an evening of music making.

She died tragically young at a time when she was moving into slightly heavier repertoire (the Countess and the Marschallin as opposed to Susanna and Sophie). Both she and Tatiana Troyanos were lost to cancer in the same year 1993 and at a similar age.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

dholling said:


> She over-worked herself, and by mid-70s (74 I believe), she suffered a vocal breakdown which was serious and from which she never fully recovered.


In a way I think it's a shame that Baroque opera was not as mainstream in Moffo's day as it is now, because if it had been, then maybe a light-voiced soprano like Moffo would have gone that route rather than the route of the Verdi and Puccini spinto heroines, and had more years of vocal health as a result. The author of _American Opera Singers and Their Recordings _ calls Susanna in the Giulini _Nozze di Figaro_ possibly her very best recorded performance, so based on that it seems believable that she could have had a future in Baroque opera.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> I heard her live a couple of times. _Vier letzte Lieder_ with Tennstedt at the Royal Festival Hall, which was a memorable evening (Tennstedt played Strauss's _Tod und Verklaerung_ as well).
> 
> Even better though was a recital with piano at the Barbican Hall. She sang Schumann's _Frauenliebe und Leben_ in the first half, and a selection of Strauss songs in the second. Her stage personality was absolutely disarming. Even in a large auditorium like the Barbican, she had the ability to make you feel as if you were a group of friends she had invited around for an evening of music making.
> 
> She died tragically young at a time when she was moving into slightly heavier repertoire (the Countess and the Marschallin as opposed to Susanna and Sophie). Both she and Tatiana Troyanos were lost to cancer in the same year 1993 and at a similar age.


Her passing was indeed sad (and still is). Her warmth, her radiance are some of the things I remember about her (plus her singing, of course).


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

I'm currently listening to _The Record of Singing_ and a voice has leapt out .... Tiana Lemnitz. In the past, I have been similarly impressed with the quality of her singing on a collection of historic Wagner excerpts from the pre-LP era.

However, there is a real problem here for many people .... it is claimed that she was a vocal anti-semite who had refused to work with jewish conductors and it ia alleged that she remained an unrepentant Nazi until her death aged 96 in 1994. There will be those who will refuse to listen to her because of her repellent views, but she had a great voice


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> However, there is a real problem here for many people .... it is claimed that she was a vocal anti-semite who had refused to work with jewish conductors and it ia alleged that she remained an unrepentant Nazi until her death aged 96 in 1994. There will be those who will refuse to listen to her because of her repellent views, but she had a great voice


All true I'm afraid.

It certainly puts me off listening to her.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Headphone Hermit said:


> I'm currently listening to _The Record of Singing_ and a voice has leapt out .... Tiana Lemnitz. In the past, I have been similarly impressed with the quality of her singing on a collection of historic Wagner excerpts from the pre-LP era.
> 
> However, there is a real problem here for many people .... it is claimed that she was a vocal anti-semite who had refused to work with jewish conductors and it ia alleged that she remained an unrepentant Nazi until her death aged 96 in 1994. There will be those who will refuse to listen to her because of her repellent views, but she had a great voice


Speaking for myself, I'm not going to cast a great cd of singing out into the outer darkness because of someone's political views. If I logically adhered to that standard, then I'd have to jettison Prokofiev and Shostakovich for shilling for Stalin; as well as (the Bruckner conductor) Osward Kabasta and Franz Schmidt for their pro-Nazi views; and even Hans Werner Henze for propagandizing for Castro.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Speaking for myself, I'm not going to cast a great cd of singing out into the outer darkness because of someone's political views. If I logically adhered to that standard, then I'd have to jettison Prokofiev and Shostakovich for shilling for Stalin; as well as (the Bruckner conductor) Osward Kabasta and Franz Schmidt for their pro-Nazi views; and even Hans Werner Henze for propagandizing for Castro.


Well people like Prokofiev & Shostakovich had no choice. With about 18 million Russians who perished under Stalin, their lives were in constant danger. One move, one finger-pointing, and that would be it for them (very likely anyhow). Nazi Germany was quite as dangerous as well. That said, I agree with your underlying principle.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

dholling said:


> Well people like Prokofiev & Shostakovich had no choice. With about 18 million Russians who perished under Stalin, their lives were in constant danger. One move, one finger-pointing, and that would be it for them (very likely anyhow). Nazi Germany was quite as dangerous as well. That said, I agree with your underlying principle.


The only reason I bring it up is because it always seems like Karajan and Schwarzkopf are indicted for their alleged pro-National Socialist sympathies, but that Shostakovich and Prokofiev are never indicted for their _de facto_ pro-Stalinist propaganda.

-- And I'm not beating up on either composer by the way.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> The only reason I bring it up is because it always seems like Karajan and Schwarzkopf are indicted for their alleged pro-National Socialist sympathies, but that Shostakovich and Prokofiev are never indicted for their _de facto_ pro-Stalinist propaganda.
> 
> -- And I'm not beating up on either composer by the way.


I see your point; there is a certain double-standard of sorts. Then again, the matter is remarkably complicated and complex for a number of reasons. The Soviets, for instance, were for the most not (willingly) a part of pro-Stalinist propaganda, but rather the victims of it. And those who dissented even in private (or accused of it, like Mikhail Nosyrev for instance) where either jailed or shot (or hanged, whatever the official felt like doing). There was opportunism, but essentially for the sake of survival. In that regard, Nazi Germany was like that, but perhaps less severe.

I think in some way history (or our use of and reaction to it) has distorted the way people lived in those regimes, and what it took not only to earn a living, but to actually survive. Karajan, for instance, was he really pro-Nazi, or was he opportunistic in using the system's policies and its wants to get to where he wanted (or needed) to go. Strauss' is hotly debated for that even still.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

dholling said:


> I see your point; there is a certain double-standard of sorts. Then again, the matter is remarkably complicated and complex for a number of reasons. The Soviets, for instance, were for the most not (willingly) a part of pro-Stalinist propaganda, but rather the victims of it. And those who dissented even in private (or accused of it, like Mikhail Nosyrev for instance) where either jailed or shot (or hanged, whatever the official felt like doing). There was opportunism, but essentially for the sake of survival. In that regard, Nazi Germany was like that, but perhaps less severe.
> 
> I think in some way history (or our use of and reaction to it) has distorted the way people lived in those regimes, and what it took not only to earn a living, but to actually survive. Karajan, for instance, was he really pro-Nazi, or was he opportunistic in using the system's policies and its wants to get to where he wanted (or needed) to go. Strauss' is hotly debated for that even still.


My understanding of the historical situation is such that neither Karajan nor Schwarzkopf were 'opportunistic' or 'fellow travelers.' It was just a cold hard fact that anyone of professional or professorial distinction had to have a Nazi party membership card in order to work.

Accordingly, I blame the State and not the victims.


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

dholling said:


> I see your point; there is a certain double-standard of sorts.


or perhaps that is part of the price paid by those who lose? There was no large scale equivalent of the Nurnberg Trial for the Allies after WW2


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

On the topic of singers .....

As I listen through things like _The Record of Singing_ (10 CDs on EMI), I am struck by changes in style within the same era. For example, after Tiana Lemnitz, Lotte Lehmann and Maria Muller almost immediately you hear Conchita Supervia, Maria Caniglia and Licia Albanese and I reckon many listeners would be able to hear that the first three are *singing* differently (not just singing a different style of music).

With more recent singers, I find it difficult to identify such stark differences in what could be called 'national schools of singing' - is this because a particular style has become dominant ... or because widespread availability of recordings has smoothed out local differences to produce a homogenous product ... or do such wide differences still occur but I'm not hearing it?


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> On the topic of singers .....
> 
> As I listen through things like _The Record of Singing_ (10 CDs on EMI), I am struck by changes in style within the same era. For example, after Tiana Lemnitz, Lotte Lehmann and Maria Muller almost immediately you hear Conchita Supervia, Maria Caniglia and Licia Albanese and I reckon many listeners would be able to hear that the first three are *singing* differently (not just singing a different style of music).
> 
> With more recent singers, I find it difficult to identify such stark differences in what could be called 'national schools of singing' - is this because a particular style has become dominant ... or because widespread availability of recordings has smoothed out local differences to produce a homogenous product ... or do such wide differences still occur but I'm not hearing it?


I think you're right. There was also a time when orchestras had a more easily identifiable national style too, but that too is becoming more homogenised in our more gloabalised world, where travel between continents is so much easier. Recordings too may well have had their role.


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

^^^ yes, orchestras, pianists, violinists, chamber ensembles .... yes, we seem to have lost a lot of the regional 'colour' in music - as in so many other things.

In geography, there is developing awarenes of the homogenisation of town centres through the use of corporate facades for shops such that the same building materials and styles are used right across the country (and also in different countries) in the service of 'corporate branding' - leading to the complaint that towns lose their individuality and everywhere looks the same. One possible reaction to this is to notice and to celebrate regional differences ... I wonder if a similar movement to HIP may develop at some stage in the future that seeks to recreate local performance traditions and unpick the type of DG/HvK homogenised product that played down the national characteristics of the music in the same way as the historical differences were evened out?


----------

