# Opera novice



## techilovsky (Nov 25, 2010)

Hi all

I know nothing about Opera but have two pieces in my music collection, both from movies. 

They are:

Hans Zimmer - Vide Cor Meum
Mozart - Duettino Sull'aria from the Marriage of Figaro

I was wondering if anyone could recommend some more pieces of music for me to listen to along these lines. Both of these pieces are quite sad and feature female vocalists.

I would like to widen my horizons when it comes to opera music so any recommendations would be really appreciated.

Thanks!


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## danslenoir (Nov 24, 2010)

Figaro would be a great start; try the "Dove sono i bei momenti" or "Porgi, amor" arias from that if you are looking for something a bit melancholic.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

It looks like Shawshank Redemption and Hannibal. Playing the duettino in the first was certainly a powerful sequence. Hans Zimmer's Vide cor meum is just music composed for the opera sequence in Hannibal.

The duettino is from Mozart's Le nozze di Figaro as are the two arias recommended by *danslenoir* that are at least as beautiful. To go on the same lines, "Ruhe sanft, mein holdes Leben" from Zaïde and "L'amerò, sarò costante" from Il re pastore are also beautiful Mozart, easy on the ear.

Puccini's "Chi il bel sogno di Doretta" from La Rondine would be a step towards something newer. "Son pochi fiori" from Mascagni's L'amico Fritz likewise.

If you are into movies, I might suggest "Diva" by Jean-Jacques Beineix. An opera singer is important in the plot and the aria "Ebben? Ne andrò lontana" from Catalani's opera La Wally also. It's also exciting!

P.S. I almost forgot Vivaldi's "Sposa son disprezzata". Try it by Cecilia Bartoli.


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## JMJ (Jul 9, 2010)

Wagner, _Parsifal_ (1877-1882)
Bartók, _Bluebeard's Castle_ (1911)
Fauré, _Pénélope_ (1913)
Stravinsky, _The Nightingale_ (1914)
Ligeti, _Le Grand Macabre_ (1975-77)
Stockhausen, _Licht_ (1977-2003)


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Wagner, Parsifal (1877-1882)
Bartók, Bluebeard's Castle (1911)
Fauré, Pénélope (1913)
Stravinsky, The Nightingale (1914)
Ligeti, Le Grand Macabre (1975-77)
Stockhausen, Licht (1977-2003)

Trying to turn a newbie off opera forever?


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## JMJ (Jul 9, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Trying to turn a newbie off opera forever?


why would you say that?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

JMJ said:


> why would you say that?


I wasn't the one saying it, but I'll throw in my 2 cents: while the works you quoted are remarkable, they aren't exactly the most accessible ones for a novice. Usually we trade lightly when recommending works to someone who is approaching opera for the first time. Of course there is no right or wrong approach to this and there's nothing that prevents a given novice from falling in love with more complex and challenging works, but as a matter of probability, it is more likely that a novice will fall in love with more accessible works first, and then later will move on to the more difficult ones.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

techilovsky said:


> Hi all
> 
> I know nothing about Opera but have two pieces in my music collection, both from movies.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the forum.:tiphat:

It's great when someone starts approaching opera for the first time. I hope you'll like what you see and listen to and will become an opera fan, because there is lots of pleasure to get from it.

My suggestion would be that you get a good quality collection of arias like this one:










It is available from Amazon.com for a bargain price - 6 CDs for some 18 bucks.
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Opera-Cl...=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1290707221&sr=1-1

Unlike other available collections of arias, this one actually has top singers and orchestras performing most of the tracks, which makes a huge difference.

You'll get 100 tracks of very good material, and the insert will tell you who is singing each one and what's the opera.

Once you get to pick a list of your favorites from these 100, you may then be curious to explore full operas.

Generally speaking, novices may like better, as an entry point, less challenging material like the Mozart/da Ponte operas (Le Nozze di Figaro, Cosi fan Tutte, Don Giovanni), some popular Italian operas (Verdi's La Traviata, Rossini's Il Barbiere di Siviglia, Puccini's La Boheme), and Bizet's Carmen. By less challenging I don't mean that these works are inferior in any way, much the opposite, they are great operas! Later if the bug bites you, you'll be exploring works that are a little more challenging (or a lot more challenging, LOL) like baroque, modernist, contemporary operas and other composers like Wagner.

Particularly, I think that La Traviata is a great entry point, and I'd recommend this version:










If your interest got spiked by pieces of operas in movies, we have a thread about opera in movies here that has many other fragments.

http://www.talkclassical.com/10541-opera-music-mainstream-movies.html

There's also a thread about well known opera pieces that made it to mainstream culture; you may be surprised to recognize some melodies that you're probably already familiar with, and find out that they come from opera.

http://www.talkclassical.com/11012-most-familiar-tunes-opera.html

YouTube is a great resource. Once you get from the above threads the proper name of an aria (opera arias are named for their first few words) you can type it on the YouTube search engine, and you'll find a list of videos with multiple performances of the aria.

Good luck, and come back to tell us about the results of your explorations.:tiphat:


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## JMJ (Jul 9, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I wasn't the one saying it, but I'll thrown in my 2 cents: while the works you quoted are remarkable, they aren't exactly the most accessible ones for a novice. Usually we trade lightly when recommending works to someone who is approaching opera for the first time. Of course there is no right or wrong approach to this and there's nothing that prevents a given novice from falling in love with more complex and challenging works, but as a matter of probability, it is more likely that a novice will fall in love with more accessible works first, and then later will move on to the more difficult ones.


I've never approached music like this and I don't recommend others do the same either. ... the opening poster was appreciating all recommendations. I personally recommend to others what I love, not something that may be deemed this or that by anyone on this forum and abroad. Other members on this thread have posted recommendations to works that I don't like at all ... and they certainly weren't a gateway for me into the world of opera, BUT notice how I've never stepped in and belittled their recommendations, no, I offered my own .. which is what someone like StlukesguildOhio should do.

All of the selections I've put forth are uber-rich, multi-facted and diverse creations ... lots of fantastic music & features within.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

If someone has understanding for music, he won't give upon opera because of demanding and discouraging stuff that he could hear. One of my first opera experiences was old mono recording of Wagner, so old that it was impossible to catch anything (I think it was Clemens Krauss) + I didn't take even one look at libretto and I spend all those hours wondering when music shall begin. But I'm alive...................................

Besides, some Italian easy fellows like Rossini and Donizetti could scare someone off as well, just like extreme avant-garde stuff. One could think "infantile tunes, silly ******** singing in Italian, fat ladies rolling their eyes, damn, opera is totally like in stereotyphes, what a worthless crap, no way I could listen any more of this ********" - the same guy could fall in love from first listen with, I don't know, Stravinsky or Bartók.

Btw, honestly, I don't think that guy who started this thread will ever become opera aficionado to any extent anyway.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

JMJ said:


> I've never approached music like this and I don't recommend others do the same either. ... the opening poster was appreciating all recommendations. I personally recommend to others what I love, not something that may be deemed this or that by anyone on this forum and abroad. Other members on this thread have posted recommendations to works that I don't like at all ... and they certainly weren't a gateway for me into the world of opera, BUT notice how I've never stepped in and belittled their recommendations, no, I offered my own .. which is what someone like StlukesguildOhio should do, if he can't then he should just stfu.
> 
> All of the selections I've put forth are uber-rich, multi-facted and diverse creations ... lots of fantastic music & features within.


Did I belittle your recommendations? Have you missed the part where I said that the ones you've recommended are *all remarkable works?* Have you missed the part where I said that there is no right or wrong about this and there is nothing that prevents a novice from falling in love with the works you've recommended? I just said that statistically speaking, it is often more likely that novices will approach and like lighter works first. It's just a statistical fact of life. I think that there is nothing wrong with what I said, and it wasn't my intention to put you down in any way, shape, or form. I just said that *most* beginners like better the more accessible works. Would you deny this simple statistical fact? Just look at popularity lists. The ones you've quoted do not appear highly in those lists, for a reason: the less learned and sophisticated fans won't dig them right away. With time, people will migrate to the kind of work you've recommended.

Here is a list of the top 20 most popular operas in the United States, as compiled by Opera America:

*1. *​*Madama Butterfly* 
*2. *​*La bohème* 
*3. *​*La traviata* 
*4. *​*Carmen* 
*5. *​*The Barber of Seville* 
*6. *​*The Marriage of Figaro* 
*7. *​*Don Giovanni* 
*8. *​*Tosca* 
*9. *​*Rigoletto* 
*10. *​*The Magic Flute* 
*11. *​*La Cenerentola* 
*12. *​*Turandot* 
*13. *​*Lucia di Lammermoor* 
*14. *​*Pagliacci* 
*15. *​*Così fan tutte* 
*16. *​*Aida* 
*17. *​*Il trovatore* 
*18. *​*Faust* 
*19. *​*Die Fledermaus* 
*20. *​*The Elixir of Love* 

See what I mean?

You're taking what I said too personally. I was addressing the question from a statistical standpoint, and I did say that nothing prevents the individual novice from going your way; just, it's not statistically likely to happen very frequently.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> If someone has understanding for music, he won't give upon opera because of demanding and discouraging stuff that he could hear. One of my first opera experiences was old mono recording of Wagner, so old that it was impossible to catch anything (I think it was Clemens Krauss) + I didn't take even one look at libretto and I spend all those hours wondering when music shall begin. But I'm alive...................................
> 
> Besides, some Italian easy fellows like Rossini and Donizetti could scare someone off as well, just like extreme avant-garde stuff. One could think "infantile tunes, silly ******** singing in Italian, fat ladies rolling their eyes, damn, opera is totally like in stereotyphes, what a worthless crap, no way I could listen any more of this ********" - the same guy could fall in love from first listen with, I don't know, Stravinsky or Bartók.
> 
> Btw, honestly, I don't think that guy who started this thread will ever become opera aficionado to any extent anyway.


Again, I posted strictly from the statistical standpoint. More people get interested in opera for the first time from listening to/watching the easier and more accessible tuneful works than from listening to/watching the vanguard works.

As for the original poster not ever becoming an opera fan, one never knows.

Still, I think he's more likely to become one if he listens to _La Traviata_ first, than if he listens to _Lulu_ first. Please understand that I'm saying *more likely* as in statistically speaking, I'm not implying that _La Traviata_ is any better than _Lulu._

Do a little experiment. Expose 20 randomly picked non-opera fans to _La Traviata_, then expose another group of 20 non-opera fans to _Lulu_, and then count how many of them found the experience enticing and got in the mood to explore other operas.

I'm prepared to bet my house that you'll *statistically* get more interested people in the _La Traviata_ group. Like I said, it's just a fact of life. Appreciation of more vanguard and challenging works takes time and education. The novice usually gets more enticed by the easier works. Not all novices, but statistically speaking, most novices.


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## JMJ (Jul 9, 2010)

statistically speaking?!?!?! LOL Opera America popularity polls!?!?!?!? LOL

**newbie** (what a dumb term) ...i guess whenever we listen to a new piece of music for the first time we're all "newbies" ... on first listen I hate most of the Opera they (O.A.) suggest according to they're dumb "polls"... sorry but that stuff is just lame.

I was addr. the question from a personal standpoint, stuff that means something to me that I recommend and advocate others try out .....not some impersonal statistical bs from just some 'other' internet site.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

The journey from 'that's nice I'd like to learn more' to 'listening to/watching & loving [_insert favourite_] for the _nth_ time' is different for everyone.

When Mrs Simon Keenlyside was pregnant she used to go to her husband's rehearsals so that her unborn baby could hear his/her father's singing from the earliest time possible but that's no guarantee that Keenlyside Jnr will love classical singing.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I was addr. the question from a personal standpoint, stuff that means something to me that I recommend and advocate others try out .....not some impersonal statistical bs from just some 'other' internet site.

What "means something to you" is irrelevant to the initial question. The OP didn't ask for you to list a few operas that you like or that were meaningful to you. The OP asked for suggestions of opera music along the lines of

Hans Zimmer - Vide Cor Meum
Mozart - Duettino Sull'aria from the Marriage of Figaro

and you suggest:

Wagner, Parsifal (1877-1882)
Bartók, Bluebeard's Castle (1911)
Fauré, Pénélope (1913)
Stravinsky, The Nightingale (1914)
Ligeti, Le Grand Macabre (1975-77)
Stockhausen, Licht (1977-2003)

I would suggest that it does not take a great deal of logic to recognize why anyone might question the usefulness of these recommendations. If the OP had asked for recommendations for Baroque composers, do you simply continue to recommend Stockhausen because you personally like him?

Of course the opera novice may just listen to Stockhausen's _Licht_ and immediately fall in love... but this is highly unlikely, and it would seem that the aim of your suggestions was simply to mock the tastes of the novice much as you mock the tastes of those who might just happen to like Don Giovanni, La Boheme, or The Magic Flute or find that they are something more than "lame".

I personally love _Parsifal_ (although I prefer _Tristan und Isolde_), and I quite like Bartok, Faure, Stravinsky, and even some of Ligeti and Stockhausen... but considering what the OP was asking and where his current tastes and experiences lie, I wouldn't recommend any of these. I'd go along with Almaviva and recommend a good collection of opera arias or a recital by a good singer, followed by an experience of an opera in full performance... ideally live... but on DVD if such is not possible... and I'd recommend something close to where the OP is starting... perhaps _The Magic Flute, La Boheme, La Traviata, The Barber of Seville, Carmen... _


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## danslenoir (Nov 24, 2010)

JMJ said:


> statistically speaking?!?!?! LOL Opera America popularity polls!?!?!?!? LOL
> 
> **newbie** (what a dumb term) ...i guess whenever we listen to a new piece of music for the first time we're all "newbies" ... on first listen I hate most of the Opera they (O.A.) suggest according to they're dumb "polls"... sorry but that stuff is just lame.
> 
> I was addr. the question from a personal standpoint, stuff that means something to me that I recommend and advocate others try out .....not some impersonal statistical bs from just some 'other' internet site.


If you'd have shown me any of the operas you suggested as my introduction to the art form I'd probably have run a mile and never looked back.

Even now, 4 years in, I still only really enjoy more accessible works.

The top 20 most widely performed opera list is useful; the top 20 operas are there because they are accessible and appeal to a wider range of people than more obscure (for the novice anyway) works.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

JMJ said:


> statistically speaking?!?!?! LOL Opera America popularity polls!?!?!?!? LOL
> 
> **newbie** (what a dumb term) ...i guess whenever we listen to a new piece of music for the first time we're all "newbies" ... on first listen I hate most of the Opera they (O.A.) suggest according to they're dumb "polls"... sorry but that stuff is just lame.
> 
> I was addr. the question from a personal standpoint, stuff that means something to me that I recommend and advocate others try out .....not some impersonal statistical bs from just some 'other' internet site.


Sure, sure, pal. Have a nice day.:tiphat:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I was addr. the question from a personal standpoint, stuff that means something to me that I recommend and advocate others try out .....not some impersonal statistical bs from just some 'other' internet site.
> 
> What "means something to you" is irrelevant to the initial question. The OP didn't ask for you to list a few operas that you like or that were meaningful to you. The OP asked for suggestions of opera music along the lines of
> 
> ...


Spot on!

By the way, here's a funny anecdote (supposedly a real story):

Music reporter: Have you conducted much Stockhausen?
[attributed to] Sir Adrian Boult: No, but I've stepped in some.


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## JMJ (Jul 9, 2010)

So here is my small personal list again to all with a sense of adventure ... 
with a few more additions, (links to choice recordings incl.)

The Bartók piece _Bluebeard's Castle_ (1911) is my all-time favorite; and would be my highest recommendation.

Wagner, _Parsifal_ (1877-1882)
Debussy, _Pelléas et Mélisande_ (1893-1902)
Fauré, _Penelope_ (1913)
Stravinsky, _The Nightingale_ (1914)
Berg, _Lulu_ (1929-1935/79)
Tippett, _King Priam_ (1958-61)
Ligeti, _Le Grand Macabre_ (1975-77)
Messiaen, _Saint François d'Assise_ (1975-1983)
Stockhausen, _Licht_ (1977-2003)

And guys … all of those have fantastic music within them, and I highly doubt that any of you are that familiar with any of them. And I like how the appreciation of all & varied horizon-broadening recommendations from members here is conveniently forgotten from the opening post. You want to narrow that down to just 'traditional' one-dimensional stereotypical & popular. The opera's I list, also more than cover moods & characteristics and things he's looking for & hordes more that is fantastic, fresh, contemporary & exciting. I loathe most opera but I loved a lot of what I've heard in those I listed right off … and I recommend them to anyone who loves & is looking for beautiful & extraordinary music.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

JMJ said:


> So here is my small personal list again to all with a sense of adventure ... The Bartók piece _Bluebeard's Castle_ (1911) is my all-time favorite; and would be my highest recommendation.
> 
> *Wagner, Parsifal (1877-1882)* (emphasis mine)...And guys … all of those have fantastic music within them, and I highly doubt that any of you are that familiar with any of them.


You highly doubt that we know _Parsifal_?

*BWAHHAhaHAha*ha!:lol:

_Please_ do not post a sentence like that last one again....:lol:

It's too hard for me to type when I'm laughing this hard!!:lol::lol:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> You highly doubt that we know _Parsifal_?
> 
> *BWAHHAhaHAha*ha!:lol:
> 
> ...


I was told that this guy JMJ is the same member who used to go by Bach and got banned. He's just trying to pick a fight, while grossly underestimating the opera knowledge of other members here.

Best answer is the one I gave him: "sure, sure, pal, have a nice day."


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## JMJ (Jul 9, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I was told that this guy JMJ is the same member who used to go by Bach and got banned. He's just trying to pick a fight, while grossly underestimating the opera knowledge of other members here.
> 
> Best answer is the one I gave him: "sure, sure, pal, have a nice day."


I am no such member. And I wasn't picking a fight either, look at the sequence of events/posts as they unfolded ... I was just offering some solid recommendations before you guys showed up busting my balls.


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## JMJ (Jul 9, 2010)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> You highly doubt that we know _Parsifal_?
> 
> *BWAHHAhaHAha*ha!:lol:
> 
> ...




Ok, knowing 1 out of the 16 there isn't bad ... hehe


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Let's revisit the opening post:


techilovsky said:


> Hi all.
> I know nothing about Opera but have two pieces in my music collection, both from movies.
> They are:
> Hans Zimmer - Vide Cor Meum
> ...


Now, let me see if I understood this correctly- he said


techilovsky said:


> ...some more pieces of music to listen too *along these lines* (emphasis mine).


Some of our members replied in the spirit of the initial request. However, this was not universal. Now, that's not all bad- but surely a person can't be surprised that when they don't reply in the spirit of the original request, some sharp responses may ensue. And thus chastened, are ill-motivated to rachet up the hostility.

One can be assured, persistence in this regard will not end in a happy place.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Obviously this conversation is leading nowhere. Let's wait and see if we hear more of techilovsky and his quest for opera!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Herkku said:


> Obviously this conversation is leading nowhere. Let's wait and see if we hear more of techilovsky and his quest for opera!


I was wondering the same thing. We're here arguing about the best approach to answer the OP's quest, when the OP seems to have disappeared.:lol:

Anyway, I believe that what I was saying applies to 98% of opera initiations. It's a natural progression, just like you don't give James Joyce's _Ulisses _to a teenager who wants to start exploring literature, or a highly structured, highly tannic first growth wine to someone who is drinking wine for the first time. Not only this, but also first-time opera goers are much more likely to encounter one of the more popular works for the sheer fact that they get staged more often.


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## SteveT (Nov 26, 2010)

I'm relatively new to this kind of music as well and I like many of the pieces & composers JMJ listed, especially Bartok, Messiaen, Ligeti and Stockhausen, and the opening post does also conclude with ...

"I would like to widen my horizons when it comes to opera music so _any recommendations_ would be really appreciated."

So that leaves plenty of room for a wide berth of suggestions one would think. JMJ's initial post to me seemed to be done with good intentions and spirits imo, and an obvious passion for music.

Steve


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Perhaps we should add a warning note to JMJ's original post that his list contains operas of unusual techniques and esoteric taste and could be harmful to the psyche of opera neophytes. 

Unfortunately, I suspect the list was meant not so much to edify beginners as to expose the mundane tastes of the rest of us. Rarely is throwing someone off of the high board the preferred method to teach someone how to swim.

Actually I know most of the operas on the list. The Parsifal and Bluebeard are acknowledged masterpieces, but I would choose Wozzeck, Rake and Midsummer Marriage for Berg, Stravinsky and Tippett. Still I enjoy most of Tippett's works so I'll give Priam another listen. In my opinion Penelope is a snooze fest, St. Francis is thought provoking but I couldn't make it through a live performance and I've yet to be engaged by any Stockhausen. I confess that I haven't heard the Stockhausen (and I'm unlikely to make any effort to do so) or the Ligeti. 

I second the recommendation of cds selected traditional arias.

Off-topic: how does SteveT (above post) get banned after one post?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Rangstrom said:


> Perhaps we should add a warning note to JMJ's original post that his list contains operas of unusual techniques and esoteric taste and could be harmful to the psyche of opera neophytes.
> 
> Unfortunately, I suspect the list was meant not so much to edify beginners as to expose the mundane tastes of the rest of us. Rarely is throwing someone off of the high board the preferred method to teach someone how to swim.
> 
> ...


Yep, I think many of us here know many of the ones included in his list. By the way, I'm watching Bluebeard's Castle right now, from a non-commercial DVD that I bought for 5 bucks from House of Opera, excellent image and sound, with English subtitles, and a strikingly beautiful soprano singing Judith.
I'm at the fully orchestrated 5th door right now. Yep, it's wonderful. I didn't retain the names of the singers (House of Opera DVDs come with no inserts or any other details) so I'll have to wait for the end to see the credits. But both singers are excellent and so is the staging. I got a Le Grand Macabre DVD from them as well.

OK, finished. Outstanding production. Here is what it is: Bluebeard is Kolos Kovats, Judith is Sylvia Sass, the orchestra is the London Philharmonic conducted by Sir Georg Solti, stage direction is by Miklos Szinetar. Apparently this was recorded from Hungarian television. No other details are available.

SteveT - I suspect the moderator found out that it's the same user who tried to come back under another name, they can spot these things by the IP address. Think, what are the odds that a new member has just joined (Nov 2010, first post) and ends up coming exactly to this discussion to jump to the support of the banned member? Pretty unlikely in my book (usually a new member will go first to the introductions thread, etc). So, chances are pretty high that it's the same guy.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

This House of Opera seems interesting. They certainly have an impressive collection to offer. Look at the Donizetti operas, for example! What bothers me is how public domain these recordings are (as they claim)? The DECCA Bluebeard's Castle has the same singers, conductor and director...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Herkku said:


> This House of Opera seems interesting. They certainly have an impressive collection to offer. Look at the Donizetti operas, for example! What bothers me is how public domain these recordings are (as they claim)? The DECCA Bluebeard's Castle has the same singers, conductor and director...


Well, it was definitely recorded from Hungarian TV, I saw the credits at the end, so, likely it is indeed public domain. I have a Meistersinger from them that was also recorded from German TV. I think that they are legit.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

The pricing certainly seems tempting. And you described the picture and sound quality being OK. I might give it a try myself!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Herkku said:


> The pricing certainly seems tempting. And you described the picture and sound quality being OK. I might give it a try myself!


Hey, if you are concerned about copyright, you may have a point. I just checked out the Decca DVD on Amazon.com and it is definitely the same production. The customer reviews describe exactly the same scenes. This may have been recorded from TV, but obviously the TV studio was airing this same production, so one wonders if this is really public domain.

Yes, the picture and sound quality are more than adequate, but remember, this is a House of Opera DVD, don't expect commercial quality. It's adequate *for* a House of Opera DVD (all the others I bought from them were less good in terms of image and sound) but it's not 5.1 surround sound and hi-def image, etc.

It is as good as what you'd get from watching it from a TV broadcast in a good conventional analog TV well tuned to the TV station; there is no white noise, no image distortions, etc. But it's not as good as what we've been accostumed with ever since DVDs and Blu-Rays and modern home theater came along.

But the Decca DVD goes for $30, so, paying $5 for this *is* tempting although one may have some guilty pangs for shortchanging the artists.

And if you want to get your fill of obscure Donizetti operas (the man composed more than 70 and only a dozen or so are available on commercial DVDs) I should also warn you that House of Opera is a hit and miss affair. Some of their DVDs are very good, others are close to unwatchable with all sorts of distortions of image and sound.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Almaviva said:


> . . . SteveT - I suspect the moderator found out that it's the same user who tried to come back under another name, they can spot these things by the IP address. Think, what are the odds that a new member has just joined (Nov 2010, first post) and ends up coming exactly to this discussion to jump to the support of the banned member? Pretty unlikely in my book (usually a new member will go first to the introductions thread, etc). So, chances are pretty high that it's the same guy.


Bingo! That's exactly what had transpired, and why SteveT got taken out of the game.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Krummhorn said:


> Bingo! That's exactly what had transpired, and why SteveT got taken out of the game.


Wow. A sock puppet, an impersonator... praising himself, and thinking that he's dealing with fools here who wouldn't spot his trick... talk about lame behavior (to use one of his favorite words).


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*This site is sh...*

Nobody knows anything...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Nobody knows anything...


The point is not knowledge, but rather, talking about opera to people who share our passion for it, and having fun. Whether we know something or not, I don't know, and I don't care. But we surely have fun.


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## techilovsky (Nov 25, 2010)

Thanks to everyone who has posted here, with some quite lengthy posts as well! I really appreciate the time people have put into their recommendations.

I will have to spend some time going through this thread listening to the recommendations but will get back to you on those I liked, although I'm sure many of these pieces take more than one listen before you can really appreciate the music (and fully understand what it is about).

Thanks again, I'll be back


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

That's exactly why I suggested some individual arias instead of whole operas. I'm sure they can be found on YouTube. Listen to those and then decide if you want more!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*You know nothing about opera?*

People are not trying to help you...Just trying to show you they *do* know about opera, maybe opera is not for you, not everybody likes opera.

R.I.P.

Martin Pitchon


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> People are not trying to help you...Just trying to show you they *do* know about opera, maybe opera is not for you, not everybody likes opera.
> 
> R.I.P.
> 
> Martin Pitchon




Not sure I understand what you're saying.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Herkku said:


> That's exactly why I suggested some individual arias instead of whole operas. I'm sure they can be found on YouTube. Listen to those and then decide if you want more!


Vivaldi is enjoying an "operatic Renaissance". More and more of his operas are being recorded and released, and this is within the last decade of developments. As for _Bajazet_ (1735), I have this version of it.

Played by Europa Galante/Fabio Biondi, singers include David Daniels.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Individual arias?*

They SUCK!!!!! Try to listen a Wagner aria without knowing the story.

Suggest rather to the gu`y:

Buy the DVD of La Bohème (Puccini)...Maybe Pavarotti.

This was my start when I was 6 yerts old. Nowadays I love opera.

This is a good starting, a nice operta, romantic, good singers...Put the subtitles in the language you feel more comfortable.

http://www.amazon.com/Puccini-Bohem...ef=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1291063406&sr=1-1

Avec amitié, friendly, con amistad

Martin Pitchon


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> People are not trying to help you...Just trying to show you they *do* know about opera, maybe opera is not for you, not everybody likes opera.
> 
> R.I.P.
> 
> Martin Pitchon


You haven't been here for long, maybe you haven't had the opportunity to get to know the posters yet, and the character and general attitude of this forum.

Maybe you have of this forum the stereotypical image of other sites I've seen around, which are dominated by snobs, by people trying to show off, and trolls.

I can assure you that this is not true of this forum.

People here are generally very friendly and respectful of one another. Sometimes someone comes along with a very aggressive attitude (like an Italian voice professor back in August, or this JMJ guy now). What happens is that they get banned. The administrators care for preserving the friendly atmosphere and the good reputation of this place.

So this is a relative sane place. People *are* actually very friendly and they *do* have an interest in helping others. We love opera, and when someone comes along to inquire about it and shows an interest for initiation in the world of opera, that's something that we welcome, and we try to treat the person nicely.

From my interactions with the regular users here, I can tell you that I haven't encountered a single person who posts from the perspective of trying to show off their knowledge of opera.

Much the opposite, we all discuss our limitations, the gaps in our knowledge, the struggles we have with certain composers or styles, the operas we don't know. Generally speaking, we like to learn from each other, because opera is such a vast universe (there are about 40,000 operas, of which about 2,600 are considered to be worthy of consideration) that nobody can master it completely; not even very experienced and learned professional musicians can (and we do have those here - I'm not one of them, far from it).

Knowledge of opera is no rocket science. It's a matter of listening, watching, reading; it is accessible to everybody. However, of course, being the number of operas so vast, people have various degrees of exposure and various degrees of years of fan-ship.

Nobody, short of being a Mozart, is born with the knowledge of these things already impacted into their brains. Everybody needs to start from some point.

We have users here - like Sonata - who have started this long road into opera fan-ship very recently. If you ask her, I'm sure she will say that her first efforts were kindly received, and she has been consistently progressing and getting more and more exposure and learning.

On the other side of the spectrum, we have users like Herkku, Mamascarlatti, Chi_TownPhilly, and several others, who have decades of exposure to opera and have listened to and seen a large number of operas.

Myself, I'm somewhere in the middle of these two extremes. I don't hesitate to talk about my limitations - for example, just recently I posted a list of 33 important/essential operas that I have never seen or listened to.

There is no special merit in being in any point of this spectrum. It's a natural fact of life, it's also in some cases generational (Sonata for example is a young woman, while Herkku I believe is getting a little long in his teeth) although not necessarily (World_Violist is a young man who knows a lot about 20th century opera). Again, I'm probably somewhere in the middle.

We have people with specific tastes that have developed more thoroughly their knowledge of specific periods.

Some_guy for instance is a walking encyclopedia of contemporary music. Chi_TownPhilly knows a lot about Wagner. Mamascarlatti enjoys baroque music. Sospiro is a big Verdi fan. And so on, and so forth.

jhar26, DarkAngel, and I like attractive sopranos... LOL. Given my ecletic opera taste and my attempt to explore a bit of everything without ever specializing in anything, that's probably the only expertise I can claim... I'm an expert on Anna Netrebko.

Read these folks' (and others') posts attentively, and you'll see that the primary concern here is to exchange friendly views, have fun, enjoy each other's cybercompany, laugh a little, learn new things about opera, and recommend DVDs and CDs to each other so that we explore other operas or versions of operas that we don't know.

There isn't, I repeat, there isn't - ANY intention whatsoever of engaging in show-offish behavior (at least not from the regular users that I know). Read Elgarian, for example. Like me, he never hesitates to talk of things he doesn't get or seems unable to enjoy. He does this, however, in a delightful way, being as he is a very talented writer.

The bottom line is, in the matter of knowledge of opera or any other genre of classical music - or any other human field of knowledge as a matter of fact - an individual will always encounter people who know more than he/she does, AND people who know less than he/she does. This is valid for me; it is also valid for you, and for everybody.

When faced to this fact of life, here is how I try to react: I try to humbly learn from those who know more than I do, and I try to be kind and provide the little guidance I can provide to those who know less than I do. When I talk to a novice, I try not to lose from my sight the fact that at one point I was just like him/her. I also try to keep in mind that whatever I do know now (which is, naturally, more than when I was a novice myself), there will be always an infinite road ahead of me to learn more, and there will be always people who know a lot more than I do.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Individual arias by Wagner. There are so many! I don't think you have to know anything about the whole opera to appreciate "Du, teure Halle!", "Oh, du mein holder Abendstern", "Winterstürme" etc.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*I am so glad to hear that, you can't imagine*

You haven't been here for long, maybe you haven't had the opportunity to get to know the posters yet, and the character and general attitude of this forum.

Maybe you have of this forum the stereotypical image of other sites I've seen around, which are dominated by snobs, by people trying to show off, and trolls.

I can assure you that this is not true of this forum.

==========================================================
I just quit a French group because they are so snobish...you are considered less than nothing, they make always difficult "quizzes" to prove they are good and you are a sh...or less.

Well, the guy doesn't like opera...is this a drama? I love opera but I don't consider him inferior because he doesn't...We can give one or two suggestions but people showing 20 to 40 is too much. I have just suggested one, la Bohème, a simple opera, nice, catchy...I agree with you, I'm not here to BRAG! I hate that! La Bohème is like an opera written by Danielle Steel...LOL, a good beginning...

Best regards,
Martin Pitchon


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Well, my start was Die Zauberflöte film directed by Ingmar Bergman, in Swedish, on TV! The first live experience was Boris Godunov at the Savonlinna Opera Festival, where my parents dragged me, a boy aged 13. I didn't have a clue about what they were singing and didn't much care for the music. If only I had realized that it was Martti Talvela singing Boris, but the name didn't mean anything to me at the time. It took some more years when the opera bug bit me, but it began with Die Zauberflöte again. And here I am, still besotted with opera, although nearing the status of a senior citizen. I much prefer the status of a very, very late teen!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Herkku said:


> ... although nearing the status of a senior citizen. I much prefer the status of a very, very late teen!


We are the baby-boomers Herkku & although we age like everyone we will never be old.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*I think you are right*

I am a baby boomer and I'll never feel old....LOL

Now I like 75% of the operas I listen to...I'm an open minded guy...Maybe a few exceptions...I HATE TRAVIATA!

lol

mARTIN


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I am a baby boomer and I'll never feel old....LOL
> 
> Now I like 75% of the operas I listen to...I'm an open minded guy...Maybe a few exceptions...I HATE TRAVIATA!
> 
> ...


Oh well, sure, why not? Individual tastes need to be respected.
But La Traviata in my opinion is not corny or cheesy.
In my opinion it is an extremely well crafted opera, with several interesting moments of tone painting and cleverly arranged music.
And you know, you can't judge the music of the time by current standards.
Think of the reading of Germont's letter by Violetta. She reads it in a declamatory tone, while the orchestra provides the pungent background.
This kind of device has been reproduced over and over in all sorts of soap operas and corny movies.
But see, Verdi was *the first one to do it.* At the time, it wasn't corny or cheesy.
You gotta get the historical perspective.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

This kind of device has been reproduced over and over in all sorts of soap operas and corny movies.
But see, Verdi was *the first one to do it.* At the time, it wasn't corny or cheesy.
You gotta get the historical perspective. 
===================================================
You are right...But I saw Traviata so many times and lately the versions were awful...I live in Montreal, small budget...and this opera well...I think I saw it too many times...My perception about Verdi changed...He's for me a plate of spaghetti, and I hate spaghetti...I prefer Puccini...or Dallapiccola....LOL
Traviata is too predictable and the story (la dame aux camélias by A. Dumas, fils is "démodée" (old fashion)...a bit like La Bohème)...His father was great.

Sincerely,

Martin Pitchon


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> You gotta get the historical perspective.


Thanks for supporting my opinion versus mamascarlatti's one in this thread: http://www.talkclassical.com/9939-stretch-operatic-action.html


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

I love La Traviata!

At least it's not about kings and queens, nobility, or some mythical creatures, and a choice between loyalty to your country and your emotions, but something a lot more personal. I think that it represents a kind of verismo before verismo, and contains some of the best music in opera!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Traviata, add some fromaggio, per piacere.. (add some cheese, please)*

About kings and queens? Of course not...is an old fashion opera...plenty of spaghetti sauce...It's like a "good American lasagna" It's real pasta!!!! with a creamy sauce...Garfield would love this! it is a bit like Aida..."Catchy music" (they didn't have Madonna then)...The Traviata brindis and the Triumphal march of Aida can easily be compared. Both are Catchy...and the public at the end of the opera were singing these melodies...I Imagine Verdi liying on the arms of the Italian "popolo" when they were singing these "tunes"...How good...GOOD MUSIC!!!!!!!!! Very Italian! Add some Fromaggio, please.











Martin


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> About kings and queens? Of course not...is an old fashion opera...plenty of spaghetti sauce...It's like a "good American lasagna" It's real pasta!!!! with a creamy sauce...Garfield would love this! it is a bit like Aida..."Catchy music" (they didn't have Madonna then)...The Traviata brindis and the Triumphal march of Aida can easily be compared. Both are Catchy...and the public at the end of the opera were singing these melodies...I Imagine Verdi liying on the arms of the Italian "popolo" when they were singing these "tunes"...How good...GOOD MUSIC!!!!!!!!! Very Italian! Add some Fromaggio, please.


You're being sarcastic, but it *is* very good music. Being popular and/or accesible and tuneful and being bad are not the same thing. And remember, if not for the Italians, opera wouldn't even exist.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> Being popular and/or accesible and tuneful and being bad are not the same thing.


If a composer has a talent for writing great tunes he would be silly to suppress that gift just to please an elite with a superiority complex that as a rule thinks it's beneath them to appreciate anything that can be enjoyed by anyone but the happy few.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> If a composer has a talent for writing great tunes he would be silly to suppress that gift just to please an elite with a superiority complex that as a rule thinks it's beneath them to appreciate anything that can be enjoyed by anyone but the happy few.


He would also be silly to sell his talent just to please dumb people's ears with crafty tunes. All gifts bring their owners both rights and duties. Right to use and benefit from his gift and duty to use it properly and with respect.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> If a composer has a talent for writing great tunes he would be silly to suppress that gift just to please an elite with a superiority complex that as a rule thinks it's beneath them to appreciate anything that can be enjoyed by anyone but the happy few.


Exactly. I'd also add, a "self-defined elite" because nothing really proves that these guys are truly an elite. Like the thread about attacks on people who love modernist and contemporary music has shown, it's because of the superiority complex these guys often have that they get attacked. I'm actually a fan of modernist and contemporary opera as proven by numerous reviews I've posted of those operas with high praise and admiration. But i'ts the attitude of those who are *exclusive* fans of these periods - the attitude of saying that everything else is crap - that irks me.

I love operas of all periods, from Monteverdi to Saariaho.

People forget that everything has been "contemporary" at a certain point, and they often believe that they are the "inside crowd" and are "in the know" because they like these time-untested works, while fans of more traditional styles are dumb and "don't get it."

They forget that this has happened in all periods. A famous example: Boito's comments about Verdi's music when he was younger, trying to get a new style of Italian opera started, and putting down the Maestro. He came to bitterly regret his own words later, as he failed to get that new music started, came to recognize Verdi's genius, wanted to collaborate with him, but Verdi, understandably turned off by Boito's early comments, resisted the collaboration for a long time. And when he finally agreed, he composed Otello and Falstaff which did result in a new style of opera.

So, when youngsters dismiss the older masters, they risk being embarrassed once they grow older and wiser.

Also, I don't even completely believe them when they put down the earlier works and styles. I think that some of these operas are so universally appealing that it is hard to find someone who honestly doesn't see any value in them. I think it's more of a question of not willing to confess to it, because they want to be seen as an elite (like I said, questionably) that only appreciates the "advanced" more recent works. There's nothing "advanced" in contemporary music, it's just a different style of music, quite untested, which may or may not be remembered in the future as something remarkable. Think of 12-tone serialism: it didn't really become predominant like Schoenberg had hoped. In say, 200 years, people may look back at 12-tone serialism like a footnote, a curiosity, a failed experiment - and these guys feel so superior to others because they appreciate it. Think of R. Strauss - he engaged in the modernist movement with Salomé and Elektra but then pulled back and returned to a more tuneful style. There is nothing that proves or indicates that modernist and contemporary musics are any better than the older styles or will survive the test of time any better than baroque, classical, romantic, etc.

And to tell you the truth, as an Italian-American, I don't concur with all the lasagna and creamy sauce humor. Italian is the language of music, Italy has an operatic tradition that is unrivaled (and this is a consensus in this forum as well; one of the polls I've started showed strong support for the Italian tradition, with the German one a relatively distant second), so, to dismiss, put down, and make fun of the Italians like this is not in tune (pun intended) with the value of that tradition. It implies a disregard for the historical perspective.

Yes, I like Russian opera, and have been exploring it more and more although it's still a work in progress (I think I've only seen between ten and fifteen by now), but I'll tell you something - as good as many of them are, in my opinion they still can't beat the best Italian operas and the best operas composed by foreign composers but in Italian and following Italianate conventions (therefore still part of the larger Italian culture).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> He would also be silly to sell his talent just to please *dumb people's* ears with crafty tunes. All gifts bring their owners both rights and duties. Right to use and benefit from his gift and duty to use it properly and with respect.


So, Aramis, your definition of high IQ is linked to the ability of despising tuneful melodies? Why do you guys often equal preference/taste - as long as this taste is different from your own - to being dumb? I believe that the definition of intelligence is the ability to find new solutions to problems, and doesn't have anything to do with personal taste, which is rather a matter of esthetical inclinations, exposure, familiarity, etc. You know, there are numerous extraordinary thinkers, philosophers, scientists, etc, who have expressed admiration for some classical composers who were masters of melody.

Try some crafty tunes, Aramis. They won't bite you.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Boito's comments about Verdi's music when he was younger, trying to get a new style of Italian opera started, and putting down the Maestro. He came to bitterly regret his own words later, as he failed to get that new music started, came to recognize Verdi's genius, wanted to collaborate with him, but Verdi, understandably turned off by Boito's early comments, resisted the collaboration for a long time. And when he finally agreed, he composed Otello and Falstaff which did result in a new style of opera.


Boito is a pretty cool guy eh bitchstrangles innocent paedophiles and doesn't surprise madafaka



> So, Aramis, your definition of high IQ is linked to the ability of despising tuneful melodies? Why do you guys often equal preference/taste - as long as this taste is different from your own - to being dumb? I believe that the definition of intelligence is the ability to find new solutions to problems, and doesn't have anything to do with personal taste, which is rather a matter of esthetical inclinations, exposure, familiarity, etc. You know, there are numerous extraordinary thinkers, philosophers, scientists, etc, who have expressed admiration for some classical composers who were masters of melody.


My post was ment to show that there are two borderlines and composer with gift of melodist should neither sell his gift or renounce it. Do you disagree?


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Interesting...*

You're being sarcastic, but it *is* very good music. Being popular and/or accesible and tuneful and being bad are not the same thing. And remember, if not for the Italians, opera wouldn't even exist.

============================================================

Italy was the origin, yes! You are right! Well...a question of tastes. I don't like Traviata but I like the masked ball! I like all Puccini's operas! I also like a bit Rigoletto....

Of course I prefer Russian opera (born from Italian opera also).

Martin ("affaire" closed).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> You're being sarcastic, but it *is* very good music. Being popular and/or accesible and tuneful and being bad are not the same thing. And remember, if not for the Italians, opera wouldn't even exist.
> 
> ============================================================
> 
> ...


OK, much better. Cool, now.:tiphat:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Boito is a pretty cool guy eh bitchstrangles innocent paedophiles and doesn't surprise madafaka
> 
> My post was ment to show that there are two borderlines and composer with gift of melodist should neither sell his gift or renounce it. Do you disagree?


I can't say that I have understood everything that you said above.
About a composer "selling" a catchy tune, we need to remember that these guys were for the most part professionals who earned their living and that of their families by composing music. There's nothing wrong with being commercially successful. Richard Strauss, Rossini, and Verdi all three became rich men, but this doesn't mean that they weren't talented composers. Art for the sake of art is cool, but when your kids' stomachs are growling and a catchy tune can get you enough money to buy food for them, and you happen to be talented enough to compose a catchy tune, I say go for it.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Did you ever dive into piano music of golden era of virtuosity? There are plenty of virtuoso-composers from that period who were good at writing tunes. Their music is full of melodies good to humm under shower and stuff.

They were writting variations and fantasias on most popular themes from operas (Meyerbeer etc) and other stuff just to gain popularity in "salons".

And I don't think they need their money to feed their children but to get a good barber to make them awesome hair:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Hehe.
It reminds me of a couple of comics I've seen, about "updated operas."
One shows a woman holding a cell phone, and the captions say "La donna è mobile."
The other shows a barber with spiked hair and face piercing working on a client sitting on a barber's chair, and the captions say "The hairstylist of Seville."
LOL


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

What a site! Je pourrais me fâcher si je ne préférai rire (Manon).


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Manon...by Jules Massenet, 1st act.

" Je pourrais me fâcher si je ne préférai rire "

Martin


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

There is no need to take everything here so seriously! If you do, you will end up with a peptic ulcer, a brain hemorrhage, cardiac arrhytmias or worse!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Too much stuff:

Just three for beginning:

*La Boheme (Puccini)
La Traviata (Verdi)
Der Fledermaus (The bat) by Johann Strauss*These are *EASY, NICE AND SHORT!*

A good start...Ignore so may operas (sometimes wonderful), but don't get mixed.

Martin


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