# How About This For a Dream Cast For Gotterdammerung???!!!!!



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Someone posted this on a Nilsson Fan Club I follow. Wow! I don't know anything else about it.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

^^^^ That is 63 ROH Solti live performance........

Young Gwen Jones appears as Rheinmaiden, later in 1970s Bayreuth as Brunnhilde, just your "typical" iconic cast that was regularly assembled at ROH, MET and Bayreuth in those halcyon days


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

You want too see a stacked deck look at 57 Bayreuth line up typical of this era, Nilsson singing Norn role........


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

If you are still "dreaming" there are the great 1940s and late 1930s MET and ROH performances that we have a few complete examples of (from radio broadcasts)..........


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

A dream cast is found on the Solti Gotterdamerung. This is the great selling point of the set


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

DavidA said:


> A dream cast is found on the Solti Gotterdamerung. This is the great selling point of the set




DGs response to Decca studio Gotterdammerung.........


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Nowadays any half-way decent cast is only a dream and all too often a pipe-dream and more usually a bleeding nightmare.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

A dream cast now is exactly that.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> If you are still "dreaming" there are the great 1940s and late 1930s MET and ROH performances that we have a few complete examples of (from radio broadcasts)..........


How is the sound quality of that 1936 with Lawrence and Melchior and Schorr? This is the dream trio for me. I heard Marjorie Lawrence's Immolation Scene in EMI's _Les Introuvables du Chant Wagnerien_ (in French). Rarely Brunnhilde sounds that youthful and sexy.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

^^^^ The MET Wagner boxset also includes the 36 Gotterdammerung in a new remaster, but I find it little if any improved sound over the Naxos release (Ward Marston restoration)......typical sound for this age, boxy with restricted dynamic range and noticeable level of ambient noise, some break-up on vocal peaks, you will mentally adjust after sometime and enjoy the "essence" of the vocal performance so well worth it for serious wagner collectors 








Majorie Lawrence


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> DGs response to Decca studio Gotterdammerung.........


Now I wonder, if EMI felt like they need to do a complete ring from 1955 to 1965, who do you think they would cast?  Let's play a game.

I'm pretty sure Legge will let Schwarzkopf sing a Norn. Dieskau, Eberhard Wächter, Christoff(!), De Los Angeles, Grummer, Irmgard Seefried, Christa Ludwig, Jess Thomas, or even a young Vickers might have involved. And you know "Who" the fan always wish to singer Wagner more 

And more importantly, who would be conductor?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

silentio said:


> Now I wonder, if EMI felt like they need to do a complete ring from 1955 to 1965, who do you think they would cast?  Let's play a game.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Legge will let Schwarzkopf sing a Norn. Dieskau, Eberhard Wächter, Christoff(!), De Los Angeles, Grummer, Irmgard Seefried, Christa Ludwig, Jess Thomas, or even a young Vickers might have involved. And you know "Who" the fan always wish to singer Wagner more
> 
> *And more importantly, who would be conductor*?


Phillips response to Decca Solti & DG Karajan was to go with Bohm live at 67 Bayreuth in stereo...........



















IF EMI had a competing RING in this period they would probably go with Kempe and some of his ROH and Bayreuth singers not under exclusive contracts, Sawallisch was very successful at earlier wagner operas but not a Ring veteran, possibly Knap but he is near retirement and hates to do studio recordings would only do live Ring like Bohm me thinks ........


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> DGs response to Decca studio Gotterdammerung.........


It is interesting. I have just obtained a copy of Solti's Gotterdamerung so cheap one couldn't refuse. I was struck by how thin Windgassen sounds in the opening duet. Actually Brilioth for Karajan sounds better (to me) possibly because of the recorded balance or even more because Karajan's handling of orchestral texture is more subtle than Solti. Solti does tend to go for the excitement of the moment which can make Wagner sound crude. In addition Denersch, while not having nearly the vocal splendour of Nilsson, sounds warmer, more human. At the time she recorded it she was more like Martha Modl in vocal terms. Of course, it depends on your taste. Karajan actually preferred a more rounded sound than Nilsson. That, and the fact Nilsson had got quite a mouth on her, probably kept them from recording together. Pity as one would have like to have heard the combination.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

A Dreamcast in a Wagner opera? A bit anachronistic don't you think?


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

silentio said:


> How is the sound quality of that 1936 with Lawrence and Melchior and Schorr? This is the dream trio for me. I heard Marjorie Lawrence's Immolation Scene in EMI's _Les Introuvables du Chant Wagnerien_ (in French). Rarely Brunnhilde sounds that youthful and sexy.


DarkAngel's comments are spot on. Recently I did try a remix (with some major re-equalization) of the Met source material, which I commented on (with download links) here: http://www.talkclassical.com/showthread.php?t=37401&p=1184651&viewfull=1#post1184651

The Met box may still be readily available, but if you want to sample this Gott'ung and see if the sound comes through for you, feel free.

I'm trying to rework the 1940 Walküre as well, with Lawrence, Flagstad and Melchior--which if anything has perhaps even worse original sound.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Bill H. said:


> I'm trying to rework the 1940 Walküre as well, with Lawrence, Flagstad and Melchior--which if anything has perhaps even worse original sound.


I'll look forward to that Bill.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Barbebleu , there were plenty of lackluster Wagner performances at the world's top opera houses and at Bayreuth in past decades . We see isolated fantastic casts on certain historical recordings and tend to assume that the "Golden Age " actually existed . It didn't . 
And in future decades , opera fans will say the very same thing about such great Wagnerians of our day such as Ben Heppner, Hildegard Behrens, Deborah Voigt, Jonas Kaufmann , Bryn Terfel .James Morris ,
Rene Pape , Waltraud Meier , and others .


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Bill H. said:


> DarkAngel's comments are spot on. Recently I did try a remix (with some major re-equalization) of the Met source material, which I commented on (with download links) here: http://www.talkclassical.com/showthread.php?t=37401&p=1184651&viewfull=1#post1184651
> 
> The Met box may still be readily available, but if you want to sample this Gott'ung and see if the sound comes through for you, feel free.
> 
> I'm trying to rework the 1940 Walküre as well, with Lawrence, Flagstad and Melchior--which if anything has perhaps even worse original sound.


Wow thanks for the efforts. I am trying it out right now.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

superhorn said:


> Barbebleu , there were plenty of lackluster Wagner performances at the world's top opera houses and at Bayreuth in past decades . We see isolated fantastic casts on certain historical recordings and tend to assume that the "Golden Age " actually existed . It didn't .
> And in future decades , opera fans will say the very same thing about such great Wagnerians of our day such as Ben Heppner, Hildegard Behrens, Deborah Voigt, Jonas Kaufmann , Bryn Terfel .James Morris ,
> Rene Pape , Waltraud Meier , and others .


Don't mean to butt in - but I'll butt in. 

I think your first paragraph is correct. There have always been plenty of mediocre singers, and the idea of a "golden age" is rather vague: people disagree about just when it was, if ever.

The fact remains that the greatest Wagnerian voices of the past have no equal at this time. How many hochdramatische sopranos active in the last few decades have had voices to compare with those of Lilli Lehmann, Lillian Nordica, Olive Fremstad, Johanna Gadski, Anna Bahr-Mildenburg, Frida Leider, Kirsten Flagstad, Marjorie Lawrence, Germaine Lubin, Helen Traubel, Astrid Varnay, Gertrude Grob-Prandl, and Birgit Nilsson?

Behrens? Not really. Voigt? Hopeless. Meier was fine, but is now retired. And heldentenors? Where'd they go? Kaufmann, our best candidate, has got as far as a fine Parsifal and Siegmund. I wish him luck with Tristan and Siegfried, if he ever gets around to them.

Even as late as the 1960s, John Culshaw could assemble a cast for _Gotterdammerung_ which could not be equaled now.

I'll place the Golden Age of Wagner between the world wars, when we could experience the vocal feast of a _Tristan_ starring Melchior, Leider or Flagstad, Thorborg, Schorr, and Kipnis. In fact, that's exactly what audiences at the Met were treated to - and there were other singers nearly as capable.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

superhorn said:


> Barbebleu , there were plenty of lackluster Wagner performances at the world's top opera houses and at Bayreuth in past decades . We see isolated fantastic casts on certain historical recordings and tend to assume that the "Golden Age " actually existed . It didn't .
> And in future decades , opera fans will say the very same thing about such great Wagnerians of our day such as Ben Heppner, Hildegard Behrens, Deborah Voigt, Jonas Kaufmann , Bryn Terfel .James Morris ,
> Rene Pape , Waltraud Meier , and others .


The point would be that back in the forties, fifties and sixties it was possible to assemble fantastic casts that had half a dozen or more great singers all on the same night. Now, if you are exceptionally lucky, you might see and hear three on the same bill. Voight as a great Wagnerian is a bit of a stretch and Kaufmann has a limited Wagner repertoire.


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

I hold great hopes for the combination of Christine Goerke and Andreas Schager in the Canadian Opera Company's Götterdämmerung, which I'll be attending next Wednesday. Reports of last night's performance are encouraging.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> I'll look forward to that Bill.


See the Historical Wagner Recordings thread for an update and link.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> The point would be that back in the forties, fifties and sixties it was possible to assemble fantastic casts that had half a dozen or more great singers all on the same night. Now, if you are exceptionally lucky, you might see and hear three on the same bill. Voight as a great Wagnerian is a bit of a stretch and Kaufmann has a limited Wagner repertoire.


You can build a fantastic Parsifal or Lohengrin cast today. I'd rate a current day Parsifal cast of Kaufmann, Pape, Kampe, Mattei, and, say, Nikitin as very competitive. A Lohengrin built around Kaufmann, Harteros, Konieczny, Herlitzius and Pape would be awfully good.

But Tannhauser and the Rings are hard to cast very well now. But they were then too--it's not like there were a dozens of great Siegfrieds and Tannhausers and Tristans in the early stereo era; there was Windgassen who could do it all, and Vickers who could do Tristan and Siegmund. There weren't a plethora of Brunnhildes and Isoldes--there was just Nilsson.

Many of the others who took these roles during that era were very fine singers, but hardly evidence of some golden age. To me, it's a matter of degrees of dissatisfaction when faced with choices between, say, Dernesch or Crespin versus Meier or Stemme.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> You can build a fantastic Parsifal or Lohengrin cast today. I'd rate a current day Parsifal cast of Kaufmann, Pape, Kampe, Mattei, and, say, Nikitin as very competitive. A Lohengrin built around Kaufmann, Harteros, Konieczny, Herlitzius and Pape would be awfully good.
> 
> But Tannhauser and the Rings are hard to cast very well now. But they were then too--it's not like there were a dozens of great Siegfrieds and Tannhausers and Tristans in the early stereo era; there was Windgassen who could do it all, and Vickers who could do Tristan and Siegmund. There weren't a plethora of Brunnhildes and Isoldes--there was just Nilsson.
> 
> Many of the others who took these roles during that era were very fine singers, but hardly evidence of some golden age. To me, it's a matter of degrees of dissatisfaction when faced with choices between, say, Dernesch or Crespin versus Meier or Stemme.


I've never heard anyone describe the 1960s as a "golden age" of opera, and especially not of Wagner singing. But I have heard that decade described as the last time you could put together a first-rate cast of dramatic voices. You mention _Parsifal,_ and for my money the Bayreuth cast of '62 hasn't, as an ensemble, been surpassed since, except perhaps when Vickers stepped in as Parsifal (I know you have reservations about Hotter's Gurnemanz, but let's not debate that again; I think it's a commanding assumption and I'll take it over any since except Moll's, and his only from the aspect of vocal smoothness). Solti's _Ring _managed to gather together some superb veteran Wagnerians for some of their final recordings, and to me Neidlinger's Alberich and Frick's Hagen, even recorded late in their careers, are still unequaled in vocal and stylistic authority. When you mentioned tenors you neglected Jess Thomas and James King, who, along with Windgassen and Vickers, made four fine and distinctly different Wagnerian tenors active in the '60s (and I may very well have forgotten someone else). Can anyone here cite four of similar distinction in any decade since? As far as I'm aware, Kaufmann alone among current dramatic tenors is in their class, but perhaps some younger folk who follow the current scene more closely can come up with another.

We haven't had a magisterial _hochdramatische sopran_ since Nilsson, have we? Eaglen was promising but got too fat to move effectively onstage and then faded out of performing. Some are talking about Christine Goerke, but I don't know. The interwar period, with Isoldes and Brunnhildes like Leider, Cobelli, Lubin, Flagstad, Lawrence, Traubel, and the young Varnay, now looks "golden" indeed, and the poorly recorded documents of singers before that reveal that impressive dramatic voices were not the rarity then that they are now.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> IF EMI had a competing RING in this period they would probably go with Kempe and some of his ROH and Bayreuth singers not under exclusive contracts, Sawallisch was very successful at earlier wagner operas but not a Ring veteran, possibly Knap but he is near retirement and hates to do studio recordings would only do live Ring like Bohm me thinks ........


Let's not forget that they did make a start...
View attachment 92108


Not just act 1, but they also started on act 3 with Norman Bailey as Wotan


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> I've never heard anyone describe the 1960s as a "golden age" of opera, and especially not of Wagner singing. But I have heard that decade described as the last time you could put together a first-rate cast of dramatic voices. You mention _Parsifal,_ and for my money the Bayreuth cast of '62 hasn't, as an ensemble, been surpassed since, except perhaps when Vickers stepped in as Parsifal (I know you have reservations about Hotter's Gurnemanz, but let's not debate that again; I think it's a commanding assumption and I'll take it over any since except Moll's, and his only from the aspect of vocal smoothness). Solti's _Ring _managed to gather together some superb veteran Wagnerians for some of their final recordings, and to me Neidlinger's Alberich and Frick's Hagen, even recorded late in their careers, are still unequaled in vocal and stylistic authority. *When you mentioned tenors you neglected Jess Thomas and James King, who, along with Windgassen and Vickers, made four fine and distinctly different Wagnerian tenors active in the '60s (and I may very well have forgotten someone else). Can anyone here cite four of similar distinction in any decade since?* As far as I'm aware, Kaufmann alone among current dramatic tenors is in their class, but perhaps some younger folk who follow the current scene more closely can come up with another.
> 
> We haven't had a magisterial _hochdramatische sopran_ since Nilsson, have we? Eaglen was promising but got too fat to move effectively onstage and then faded out of performing. Some are talking about Christine Goerke, but I don't know. The interwar period, with Isoldes and Brunnhildes like Leider, Cobelli, Lubin, Flagstad, Lawrence, Traubel, and the young Varnay, now looks "golden" indeed, and the poorly recorded documents of singers before that reveal that impressive dramatic voices were not the rarity then that they are now.


Even for Lohengrin and Parsifal mentioned by HFT there is no modern cast I have heard that can equal the best of 1950-60s, for instance I have carefully listened to Thomas vs Kaufmann (the best modern wagner tenor I have heard) as Lohengrin and I clearly prefer Thomas, his soft voice is crystal clear vs kaufmann who sounds opaque and muffled by comparison (mein lieber swan etc)......the technique back then was just at another level

Also for Ortrud and Kundry there is no equal today of the great ones back then, we can only listen to recordings in great admiration of these great artists.......

We do have more wagner heldentenors to add to your original list 

*1960s*
- Thomas
- King
- Vickers
- Konya
- Uhl

*1950s*
- Windgassen
- Vinay
- Suthaus
- Aldenhoff
- Svanholm


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

King and Konya and Thomas were excellent but certainly weren't excellent Siegfrieds or Tristans or Tannhausers--I don't really rate Thomas as Siegfried in Karajan's studio or the Salzburg performances as particularly successful. In terms of size and stamina, they're behind Jerusalem who did the big roles they avoided; in terms of quality of recorded performances in the smaller roles like Parsifal, Lohengrin, and Walther, Domingo is competitive if not better, plus Domingo did Tristan and Tannhauser. 

Uhl? Seriously? His attempt at Tristan was a resounding failure. He was a fine Erik or Loge but no more than that.

Svanholm and Aldenhoff and Suthaus are good. I'd rather listen to them than Kollo but I'd rather listen to Domingo for Tristan and I'd listen to Jerusalem for Siegfried as soon as I'd listen to them. Vinay is very good but I'm not sure I'd prefer him to Kaufmann--maybe less powerful and stirring but technically much better and on a completely different level in terms of word coloring. Neidlinger and Frick were terrific villains, but so were Wlaschiha and Salminen.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Even for Lohengrin and Parsifal mentioned by HFT there is no modern cast I have heard that can equal the best of 1950-60s, for instance I have carefully listened to Thomas vs Kaufmann (the best modern wagner tenor I have heard) as Lohengrin and I clearly prefer Thomas, his soft voice is crystal clear vs kaufmann who sounds opaque and muffled by comparison (mein lieber swan etc)......the technique back then was just at another level
> 
> Also for Ortrud and Kundry there is no equal today of the great ones back then, we can only listen to recordings in great admiration of these great artists.......
> 
> ...


To your '50s list I'll add Gunther Treptow, whose fine 1950 Tristan surprised me after I'd read a comment about his "strangled" tone. Of course the ageless Melchior could have kept going in the '50s, but as he debuted in 1913 and the Met wouldn't put him in anything but Wagner, who (except Rudolf Bing) could blame him for wanting to have a little fun?











As for Ortrud, one need only mention Margarete Klose, Astrid Varnay and Christa Ludwig, all of whom we're fortunate to have on record. For those who don't know Klose (also a great Fricka, getting up there but still potent in Furtwangler's 1954 studio _Walkure_):






Really, when's the last time (if ever) you heard Wagner sung like that? Such verbal clarity and dramatic eloquence allied to an impeccable legato line...


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> As for Ortrud, one need only mention Margarete Klose, Astrid Varnay and Christa Ludwig, all of whom we're fortunate to have on record. *For those who don't know Klose (also a great Fricka, getting up there but still potent in Furtwangler's 1954 studio Walkure):
> *
> 
> 
> ...


Klose also appears in the 50 Tristan - Knap we have been discussing recently, that is a really great Ortrud duet sung by Klose, can't find any CD version of that Lohengrin so thank the opera gods for youtube.........

Maria Mueller & Klose are in this early 42 Lohengrin that is available on Youtube


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> When you mentioned tenors you neglected Jess Thomas and James King, who, along with Windgassen and Vickers, made four fine and distinctly different Wagnerian tenors active in the '60s (and I may very well have forgotten someone else). Can anyone here cite four of similar distinction in any decade since? As far as I'm aware, Kaufmann alone among current dramatic tenors is in their class, but perhaps some younger folk who follow the current scene more closely can come up with another.


I'm not going to claim that current singers are the same, or have the same things to recommend them as those great singers of the past. But the conversation cannot be had without names. For some of these roles, I think the two best options for the current era or so, with operabase links, are:

Stephen Gould. On CD: Tristan and Siegfried in Siegfried for Janowski, and both Siegfrieds for Thielemann for both Bayreuth and Wiener Staatsoper. At Bayreuth currently he's Tristan (including the recent DVD release in Wagner's new production). [And, as for all of the current singers at Bayreuth, I mean at least 2016 and on schedule for 2017].

Andreas Schager. The current Parsifal at Bayreuth. See also the recent DVD under Barenboim at Staatskappelle Berlin. He just opened as Siegfried in Götterdämmerung at COC in Toronto opposite Goerke.

Others to consider would include

Lance Ryan. Was Siegfried at the 2013 BBC Proms under Barenboim. On DVD also under Barenboim in the la Scala Ring, the Valencia Ring under Mehta, and the Frankfurt Ring under Weigle. On CD as Siegfried in Götterdämmerung for Janowski. (See also Énée for Gergiev at Valencia).

Stefan Vinke. Current Siegfried (in both operas) at Bayrueth. About to sing the same at Deutsche Oper Berlin, Wiener Staatsoper. Recently sang at Opera Australia, COC, and Liceu. Only recent official CD release I can find is from Seattle Opera's 2013 Ring.

And maybe Simon O'Neill is about to sing his first Siegfried at HGO, after singing Otello (on CD with LSO under Davis), Parsifal (Teatro Real, ROH, and at Lucerne), and Siegmund (BBC Proms in 2013, the Met, la Scala, Wiener Staatsoper, Deutsche Oper Berlin).

Stuart Skelton and Klaus Florian Vogt seem to be more well known, and somewhere in this range.

Of these I've only seen Stephen Gould and Stuart Skelton live. The latter was Siegmund at the Met Opera in 2012 (Kaufmann on the DVD releases). Gould was Siegfried (Jay Hunter Morris on the DVDs) at the Met, and Tristan at ROH in 2014, the latter performance one of the best I've ever heard in house.

And speaking of Jay Hunter Morris, he was of course a fill-in at the Met, and hasn't sung much of the same type material since, except in smaller houses. I'm still looking forward to hearing him as Lazarus in The Gospel According to the Other Mary with the San Francisco Symphony in a couple weeks, and Erik in Holländer at the Met in May.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Some clips of these young men's singing might help too.

*Gould:* 



*
Schager:* 




*Ryan:* 




*Vinke:* 




*O'Neill:* 




*Skelton:* 




*Morris:* 




*Kaufmann:* 




What do y'all think?

Now let's go back in time.

*Ben Heppner,* 2003: 




*Reiner Goldberg,* 1985: 




*James King,* 196?: 




*Jon Vickers,* 1958: 




*Ramon Vinay,* 1957: 




*Set Svanholm,* 195?: 




*Ludwig Suthaus,* 194?: 




*Franz Volker,* 1937: 




*Lauritz Melchior,* 1935: 




*Paul Koetter,* 193?: 




*Max Lorenz,* 1929: 




*Walther Kirchhoff,* 1915(?): 




*Jacques Urlus,* 1915: 




All right then. What _is_ a heldentenor, and who are the heldentenors of today?


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

DarkAngel said:


> You want too see a stacked deck look at 57 Bayreuth line up typical of this era, Nilsson singing Norn role........


Yes, and Sieglinde in Walkure. I love the '57 Ring.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Now let's go back in time.
> 
> *Ben Heppner,* 2003:
> 
> ...


Great comparo's there duck, notice the big sound quality increase with 29 Lorenz as "electrical" recording technology is put to use........

I remember long ago I mentioned I really love Lorenz's "prize song" from Meistersinger because he has such a beautiful expressive soft voice, I also really like him above in wintersturme along with Svanholm (so many great ones hard to choose) even without modern stereo sound it is easy to hear the masterful technique and artistry of these historic singers......



> All right then. What _is_ a heldentenor, and who are the heldentenors of today?


The hard to find heldentenor, a large dramatic voice that spans tenor and baritone ranges and is also capable of beautiful soft voice passages, the lower voice has commanding power and hopefully a golden ringing top

Today our brightest star in the wagner universe remains Jonas Kaufmann, he is in such demand for opera standards rarely has time for wagner............imagine the utter hysterical madness if Kaufmann announced he would sing Siegfried at a future Bayreuth festival season


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Some clips of these young men's singing might help too.
> 
> *Gould:*
> 
> ...


Edited - I don't think it's a good comparison to listen to people who can only do Siegmunds and compare them to singers doing Siegfried, because Siegfried is so much higher a tessitura and requires a different kind of voice. Of course many singers who can only do Siegmund sound more powerful and richer and more baritonal than many singers who do Siegfrieds. That is also why they can never do a Siegfried--it sits too high for their voices.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

I have not heard many tenors singing Wagner live. Of those I have heard (Vogt, Botha, Ryan, Gould and a few lesser known), Gould was the most impressive.

Sure, the greatest singers are gone and there are no new supersingers in sight. So everyone else will look flawed next to them.

But those who are saying there can not be a decent or even acceptable Wagner performance today...

I don't know. I, too, have experienced really horribly sung screaming-evenings. And some very _mixed_ performances have even made their way to Disc. Think of the latest Met Ring with Voigt & Hunter-Morris who were really not a good cast for those roles.

On the other hand I prefer Gould & Stemme* on a good day over (let's say) a 1960's thin-voiced Windgassen with a scooping Varnay. And from what I've heard and read about Kaufmann's comeback last month as Lohengrin in Paris... 

* Of course they are both very experienced. So I wonder what the *future* will be...Will Kaufmann ever try Tristan? Some have mentioned Goerke and Schager. I'm not sure about them yet. There are rumors about them singing Siegfried/Brünnhilde in Bayreuth 2020.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> Edited - I don't think it's a good comparison to listen to people who can only do Siegmunds and compare them to singers doing Siegfried, because Siegfried is so much higher a tessitura and requires a different kind of voice. Of course many singers who can only do Siegmund sound more powerful and richer and more baritonal than many singers who do Siegfrieds. That is also why they can never do a Siegfried--it sits too high for their voices.


First, the heldentenors I listed did not do only Siegmunds. They all sang other Wagner tenor roles, and most of them sang, successfully, Tristan and Siegfried. I chose "Wintersturme" because they all recorded it, because its familiarity and its exposed vocal line make the singer easy to hear and evaluate, and because it displays the singer's ability to employ the many musical and technical graces of good singing, in a way that the sustained trumpeting of, say, Siegfried's forging song would not (except when sung by Jacques Urlus - see below!).

Second, the fact that Siegmund's tessitura lies a bit lower than Siegfried's doesn't mean that "a different kind of voice" is needed. Individual singers' most effective ranges and comfort zones differ, but a heroic tenor is a heroic tenor. Jon Vickers, Ramon Vinay and Lauritz Melchior (among others) all sang Verdi's high-lying Otello (even though the Met wouldn't put Melchior in anything but Wagner, his German-language _Otello_ excerpts are superb, and his "Vesti la giubba" is just as powerful).

I think my historical examples (which don't exhaust the fund of notable Wagner tenors, by the way), show two things: that the heldentenor - a tenor with the range, power, and weight to do justice to Wagner's big parts - is almost extinct; and 2) that vocal technique has declined, and/or that singers presently calling themselves "heldentenors" are trying to achieve a "big sound" by forcing their voices in a way that they should not. Of course this isn't an exclusively modern problem; some of those historical singers fell into the same trap (I'm thinking of Max Lorenz, whose intensity gradually got the better of his sound). If we listen for such indicators of technical proficiency as dynamic control, legato and speed of vibrato, we'll hear a notable difference between some of our would-be heldentenors and such older singers as Urlus, Volker, Melchior and Vickers. (Urlus, born in 1867, was a particularly wonderful surprise to me. Like Melchior, he had a technique that stood him in good stead into his 60s; he could sing the most strenuous music lyrically, never forcing his voice. They both had a wonderful - and technically sound - way of taking high notes without excess pressure and swelling into them, to thrilling effect. Urlus apparently made a good many recordings, and I'm really enjoying exploring them on YouTube. A great singer!).


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

interestedin said:


> I have not heard many tenors singing Wagner live. Of those I have heard (Vogt, Botha, Ryan, Gould and a few lesser known), Gould was the most impressive.
> 
> Sure, the greatest singers are gone and there are no new supersingers in sight. So everyone else will look flawed next to them.
> 
> ...


Yes, exactly. The last few Bayreuth Ring performances for instance have been very very good, with Petrenko and Janowski leading casts with Foster and Vinke, with Lundgren's Wotan being a particular highlight for me from the 2016 Cycle; the Proms Barenboim concert performance from 2013 was excellent despite a rotating cast. The 00's were a bit fallow, but the last few years have been very promising. I consider these casts significantly better than halfway decent.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> First, the heldentenors I listed did not do only Siegmunds. They all sang other Wagner tenor roles, and most of them sang, successfully, Tristan and Siegfried.


As far as I know, Heppner, King, Vickers, Vinay, Volker never sang Siegfried (and all these except Vinay never did a Tannhauser). Heppner, Vickers and Vinay did do Tristans--it's a lower role and is more likely to sit more comfortably in their ranges. I'm surprised you think it's anything but obvious that pushed up baritones like Kaufmann or Vinay will easily do Siegmund (and the easier roles like Lohengrin, Parsifal and Walther), and has some likelihood of doing a Tristan or two but is rarely likely to do a Siegfried.

I am of course familiar with Vicker's and Vinay's Otellos, but I don't see how the fact that they did that role has any relevance to their ability to do a Siegfried--the best evidence that they were unable to do Siegfried is that they never did, despite what is always a ravening hunger for opera casting managers for any suitable Siegfrieds.

I don't really listen to any recordings before the electric era, so I have no idea who Koetter, Kirschoff or Urlus are, so I can't say anything about them. Other than Urlus, I'm not finding much with my google fu about their taking the bigger Wagner roles. I'm somewhat skeptical of conclusions that people draw about singers from the acoustic era--I don't know how much can be concluded about a voice captured with poor fidelity, accompanied by extremely slimmed down chamber music sized groups.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> I'm somewhat skeptical of conclusions that people draw about singers from the acoustic era--I don't know how much can be concluded about a voice captured with poor fidelity, accompanied by extremely slimmed down chamber music sized groups.


I am VERY skeptical about comparisons where that is all we have to hear. I don't dispute that they may have been exceptional but the technology of the time was not up capable of capturing much at all and would distort much of what it did.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As an aside, it would be fascinating to have some recordings made by current artists using the old acoustic techniques and then compare the results to what we know they actually sound like. While there are some cases of singers who recorded from the acoustic era until after WW2, their voices had aged and changed substantially such that comparisons would be dubious.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I understand that many may wonder how much we can conclude about the technique of singers recorded in the acoustic era, and I don't really hope to convince skeptics with my arguments. But trained singers - of whom I was one, at what I'll call a semipro level - and those who listen a great deal to singers of all eras through the changes in recording technology, can actually tell a great deal about how well those chirpy old soprano voices are functioning. Sometimes we are helped by the fact that a singer's work spans the acoustic-to-electrical transition; Rosa Ponselle comes to mind. You'll just have to trust me when I tell you that great singing has many ways of making itself known to the trained ear even when it has to go through a recording horn and onto a shellac disc.

There has never been any doubt in my mind that Battistini, Amato and Stracciari (the latter having made both acoustic and electrical recordings) were greater baritones, technically and stylistically, than MacNeil, Nucci and Milnes, or that there isn't a tenor on earth today that can sing "Una furtiva lagrima" as well as this:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> As far as I know, Heppner, King, Vickers, Vinay, Volker never sang Siegfried (and all these except Vinay never did a Tannhauser). Heppner, Vickers and Vinay did do Tristans--it's a lower role and is more likely to sit more comfortably in their ranges. I'm surprised you think it's anything but obvious that pushed up baritones like Kaufmann or Vinay will easily do Siegmund (and the easier roles like Lohengrin, Parsifal and Walther), and has some likelihood of doing a Tristan or two but is rarely likely to do a Siegfried.
> 
> I am of course familiar with Vicker's and Vinay's Otellos, but I don't see how the fact that they did that role has any relevance to their ability to do a Siegfried--the best evidence that they were unable to do Siegfried is that they never did, despite what is always a ravening hunger for opera casting managers for any suitable Siegfrieds.
> 
> I don't really listen to any recordings before the electric era, so I have no idea who Koetter, Kirschoff or Urlus are, so I can't say anything about them. Other than Urlus, I'm not finding much with my google fu about their taking the bigger Wagner roles. I'm somewhat skeptical of conclusions that people draw about singers from the acoustic era--I don't know how much can be concluded about a voice captured with poor fidelity, accompanied by extremely slimmed down chamber music sized groups.


Well, if you just want to talk about who has or hasn't the easy high notes for Siegfried, fine. I was trying to talk about heldentenors in general. Really, Siegfried isn't easy for anyone, is it? Some of those singers who didn't sing the part undoubtedly chose not to for reasons other than an actual inability to sing it. And a little more facility at the top of the range hardly amounts to "a different kind of voice." I'm beginning to wonder what we're arguing about, since you admit to not knowing, or being unable to evaluate, some of the heldentenors I cite.

I will put this baldly: those old singers are better Wagner singers - and some are just better singers - than most of the tenors doing heldentenor roles today, most of whom shouldn't be called heldentenors. Kaufmann may be the only one of the bunch who qualifies, whether he chooses to do Siegfried or not.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> As an aside, it would be fascinating to have some recordings made by current artists using the old acoustic techniques and then compare the results to what we know they actually sound like. While there are some cases of singers who recorded from the acoustic era until after WW2, their voices had aged and changed substantially such that comparisons would be dubious.


It's been done occasionally. When Birgit Nilsson heard her voice on an acoustic recording, she said she would never laugh at old recordings again.

Womens (higher) voices suffered more from acoustic technology than men's, since more of the voice's overtones lie in the spectrum not captured by the recording. We can't really know the timbre of high voices recorded then (though verbal descriptions from the time can help us interpret what we're hearing), but we can tell a lot about technique.

With men's voices it's a bit easier. Jacques Urlus had technique to burn. Lance Ryan doesn't.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Some clips of these young men's singing might help too.
> 
> *Schager:*
> 
> ...


First off, thank you for gathering all this! I had wanted to include YouTube clips, but I got intimidated and ran out of time. I added these to my watch later but got distracted by Schager, both wanting to hear him in more rep and to hear direct comparisons in the forging song. The ones I left in above are also the forging song. I found more versions of the forging song. There are certainly some gaps, but I tried to get a good spread.

The Vinke from Seattle does not stand up, but I'm probably going to find Bayreuth 2016 to see if/how he has developed. Morris is even weaker, but, again, he was a last minute replacement for Lehman, who himself was a replacement for Heppner.

Ben Heppner, studio CD with Schneider/Staatskapelle Dresden: 




Jess Thomas, CD with Karajan: 




Stephen Gould, CD from Bayrueth, Thielemann: 




Lance Ryan for Mehta/Valencia: 




Siegfried Jerusalem for Barenboim/Kupfer: 




Manfred Jung for Boulez/Cheréau: 




Wolfgang Windgassen, live from Bayreuth 1953, Krauss: 




Max Lorenz, live from Bayreuth 1936, Tietjen: 




Lauritz Melchior, studio 1928-1932: 




I want to hear more Max Lorenz? And that I'm glad that modern recordings let you hear the orchestra so much better?

I find Gould and Ryan comparable to Jerusalem, and better than Jung (who I realize is often seen as a weak point of that cycle). And I know that's a concert performance from Schager, but I'm really interested to see how he continues, too.

And, on preview, I'm not really here looking at what is a heldentenor, specifically. My focus has been who has been singing/recording Siegfried and similar roles, at various points in time. There is certainly a lot of overlap here, but my immediate question is more, how does this person sound as Siegfried. I certainly have a lot to learn about technique, etc., but in opera listening my focus tends to be on the overall effect, so.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

This is a very interesting interview with Jon Vickers. He talks about why certain parts don't appeal to him, among them Siegfried.

http://www.bruceduffie.com/vickers.html


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Not Siegfried but another fine tenor - this 'In fernem Land' by Beczala (his first Lohengrin ever):


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I'm beginning to wonder what we're arguing about, since you admit to not knowing, or being unable to evaluate, some of the heldentenors I cite.


Well, I see we're in the "you must be expert on Koetter, Kirschoff and Urlus to be able to engage in this argument" part of this discussion, which is where I'll see my self out.

I'll say that as a general matter that I like to listen to full opera recordings or at least full acts and scenes, and not just listen to Wintersturme over and over again. Hence my lack of interest in recordings of individual arias which are all that are available from the acoustic era.

Even if the recorded evidence showed that these singers were a hundred times better than any we have good recordings of, I really wouldn't be able to care less until some well recorded full acts or operas were unearthed. Maybe some can find some satisfaction in speculating on how a full opera including infrequently excerpted sections would have sounded from these singers; I can't muster that level of speculation myself.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> Well, I see we're in the "you must be expert on Koetter, Kirschoff and Urlus to be able to engage in this argument" part of this discussion, which is where I'll see my self out.
> 
> I'll say that as a general matter that I like to listen to full opera recordings or at least full acts and scenes, and not just listen to Wintersturme over and over again. Hence my lack of interest in recordings of individual arias which are all that are available from the acoustic era.
> 
> Even if the recorded evidence showed that these singers were a hundred times better than any we have good recordings of, I really wouldn't be able to care less until some well recorded full acts or operas were unearthed. Maybe some can find some satisfaction in speculating on how a full opera including infrequently excerpted sections would have sounded from these singers; I can't muster that level of speculation myself.


Fair enough. I'm a singer (though past my singing years). It determines how I hear singers and what I want from them. There's no point in talking at cross purposes.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> This is a very interesting interview with Jon Vickers. He talks about why certain parts don't appeal to him, among them Siegfried.
> 
> http://www.bruceduffie.com/vickers.html


Vickers was a great and thoughtful artist with interesting ideas. Some of them were odd: it was not considered "great vocal virtuosity at that point of vocal history" to have "four different voices" like Dame Clara Butt, and I'm afraid his view of Wagner is limited by his religious persuasion (Wagner was not, for example "influenced by Nietzsche," but Nietzsche was by Wagner). I can understand his not finding the young Siegfried interesting, and given his refusal to sing Tannhauser I wonder how he reconciled himself to other Wagner roles. It's interesting to find him saying that Siegfried is easier to sing than Berlioz's Aeneas. Surely it takes a vocal giant to say that!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Vickers was a great and thoughtful artist with interesting ideas. Some of them were odd: It's interesting to find him saying that Siegfried is easier to sing than Berlioz's Aeneas. Surely it takes a vocal giant to say that!


Yes, he was a bit of an oddball. As regards Siegfried, it's an easy statement to make given that he never performed it. Unless he sang it for fun in the shower!!


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> I want to hear more Max Lorenz? And that I'm glad that modern recordings let you hear the orchestra so much better?


Hilariously, today's Ring Cycle opera is the 1950 Furtwängler _Götterdämmerung_... with Lorenz as Siegfried.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

mountmccabe said:


> Hilariously, today's Ring Cycle opera is the 1950 Furtwängler _Götterdämmerung_... with Lorenz as Siegfried.


Remember that - I guess you are aware of it anyway - 1950 was way past his prime. Lorenz was Bayreuth's big star in the 30's under Hitler after all.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

interestedin said:


> Remember that - I guess you are aware of it anyway - 1950 was way past his prime. Lorenz was Bayreuth's big star in the 30's under Hitler after all.


Yeah, I didn't really find what I was looking for. Looks like he's on the 1952 Keilberth cycle, too, though again not in _Siegfried_. I will keep my plan of looking for older recordings and temper my expectations when I get to the '52 cycle. But I'm sure it will be a while.

Next up is 2014 Thielemann Wiener Staatsoper.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

howlingfantods said:


> I don't really rate Thomas as Siegfried in Karajan's studio or the Salzburg performances as particularly successful.


Agreed. Perhaps Thomas's voice was too "nice" to play Siegfried; he came across like a friendly vicar sometimes. Not so much of a handicap when playing the saintly/innocent Lohengrin or Parsifal, but decidedly incongruous as the hot-headed, incestuous spawn of the Volsungs.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> I'm afraid his view of Wagner is limited by his religious persuasion... and given his refusal to sing Tannhauser I wonder how he reconciled himself to other Wagner roles.


To say nothing of Vickers' magnificent performances as the bullying child-abuser, Peter Grimes.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> Yeah, I didn't really find what I was looking for. Looks like he's on the 1952 Keilberth cycle, too, though again not in _Siegfried_. I will keep my plan of looking for older recordings and temper my expectations when I get to the '52 cycle. But I'm sure it will be a while.
> 
> Next up is 2014 Thielemann Wiener Staatsoper.


He only did the Gotterdammerung Siegfried in the 1950 Furt and the 1952 Keilberth. He also did the Siegmund in the 1954 Keilberth Walkure, but he's really much past his peak in all of these, although I still find much to enjoy in his performances.

He can be heard in better voice (although still somewhat past his peak) delivering my favorite Tristan performance in Heger's 1943 recording, and an Act 1 of Walkure led by Elmendorff from 1944. There's also a mostly complete 1943 Furtwangler Meistersinger, but I think Lorenz is a little too forceful and frenzied for Walther.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Agreed. Perhaps Thomas's voice was too "nice" to play Siegfried; he came across like a friendly vicar sometimes. Not so much of a handicap when playing the saintly/innocent Lohengrin or Parsifal, but decidedly incongruous as the hot-headed, incestuous spawn of the Volsungs.


Have to disagree with those comments about Jess Thomas, he had an deep artistic poetic understanding of each wagner role including Siegfried and captures the full emotional spectrum like few others ever had, his voice was not only beautifully expressive but commanding and forceful as needed.......he was still in great voice up to 1970 captured in this Gotterdammerung act 3 narrative 00 -> 7:30






Agree with HFT that Max Lorenz at the end of his career still has very much to offer in his recordings, I will add 51 Tristan with Grob-Prandl in OK sound......


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I think when it comes to looking at singers in the past it is easy to remember the greats like Melchior (who might be considered a freak of nature) but forget there was always a paucity of singers available to sing it simply because Wagner appeared to have little understanding of what punishment a voice could take. When Culshaw recorded the Ring he said there was really only one Siegfried and he didn't think (initially anyway) he was good enough as he tried to cast someone else. Eventually, of course, Windgassen recorded it but the voice always sounds a bit underpowered for all his artistry.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I'm happy with the Solti recording.


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