# Feminist Carmen



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Found this on Slipped Disc discussing a feminist Carmen and what other operas could be modified.

You might like to put in your own suggestions

http://slippedisc.com/2018/01/now-for-a-carmen-with-a-feminist-ending/


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

I thought _Carmen_ was already pretty feminist.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

If you don't want to read... Carmen shoots Don Jose at the end. I love how murdering someone apparently equates to feminism. 

Particularly given that this occurs at the very end, I don't have any objections at all. 

I think quite a few operas could do with a little "girl power", I'd love to see Liu and Gilda come out on top.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

To die in an opera especially in the end usually means to get to moral victory. Since Carmen already is an unlikeable woman it sounds more like a misogynistic version.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Sloe said:


> To die in an opera especially in the end usually means to get to moral victory. Since Carmen already is an unlikeable woman it sounds more like a misogynistic version.


Depends on whether you find Carmen unlikeable--and why.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I doubt if anyone is applauding the killing of women in _Carmen_ as suggested by this article. The applause is for the drama and the genius of Bizet and perhaps the acknowledgment of a tragic love affair, examples of which can be found virtually every day in real life. (_Forensic Files_ on tv provides numerous examples involving both women and men by those who've probably never seen _Carmen_ in their lives.) If one changed the ending where Carmen shoots her lover, it's still murder, so then the opera could be viewed as applauding murder. Just how far does one go in rewriting history? Just how suggestible is the audience supposed to be rather than the composer assuming that they have some measure of maturity and self-control? How about a _Carmen_ where the performers wear nicotine patches instead of smoking politically incorrect cigarettes that could be damaging to one's health? It's an opera that probably assumes that the audience understands the difference between a libretto written for drama and tragedy and the reality of how the majority of human beings actually conduct their lives.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Ugh! Pass the barf bag please.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I wonder what's next


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## KJ von NNJ (Oct 13, 2017)

Carmen is a liberated woman, but in her times, her flaunting sexuality and daring defiance of tradition makes her an easy target for abuse. Because she is abusive herself. A temptress, a rebel, and yes, a ****. She gets away with all the things that men get away with up to the point where Don Jose murders her. He could not handle her, and in his obsession for her, he kills her.
There should be no misunderstanding of the basic story in Carmen. 
I for one, love Carmen as a character. She lives her life as a man of her times would. She is sassy, defiant and single-minded. She seems to not fear death but she loves life. She is a Lioness. And in the end, the guy who really loves her just can't handle the fact. He tries to control her, which is a mistake because she is beyond being controlled by anyone. There is also plenty of anger in Carmen, which makes her character all the more ambiguous. You wonder what drove her to such a wild extremes. Well, life did, and her being a woman in the times she lived in, is another. The story is timeless and it translates very well to today's times.
We still have the same types of things going on. Lots of times it's the woman who does the killing. Whether it's her lover or her babies. Crimes of passion are as prevalent today as they were two thousand years ago. The human condition is what it is. Regardless of how much education we have, we still react as if we just crept up out of the slime. All the technology in the world, and knowledge, will not change our natures. If I were Don Jose, I would have had my fun, and got the hell out of there without harming a hair on her lovely head. Leave her with a smile. "Sorry kid, yer just just too fast for me." Then of course, Carmen would have killed Don Jose. "No-one, ever leaves me! Prepare to die!" I mean, Bizet could have ended the opera that way, and it still would be as popular today. And the woman would have delivered the fatal blow. It's universal. Like Shakespeare, Well....sometimes.


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## SenaJurinac (Nov 29, 2017)

This reminds me of the nonsenses like trying to write a new version of politically, gender correct Bible...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6127783/New-International-Version-of-Bible-to-be-rewritten-after-row-over-politically-correct-language.html


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## davidglasgow (Aug 19, 2017)

I wonder why they feel the need to stage an opera when they don't like the ending. There's not exactly a shortage of operas so just stage another opera and let Bizet's conception die the death if you don't like the representation of women.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Sloe said:


> To die in an opera especially in the end usually means to get to moral victory. Since Carmen already is an unlikeable woman it sounds more like a misogynistic version.


Carmen is unlikable? Hardly. She's like a 19th century Kim Kardashian.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Carmen is unlikable? Hardly. She's like a 19th century Kim Kardashian.


Actually, no. A 19th century Cher. She is basically this:


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Also upgrade the cigarette factory to a modern-day e-cig manufacturer and perhaps the opera could be re-named _Carmen Electra_.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I understand not wanting to showcase art that depicts the murder of women. An argument can be made that any depiction is some level of glorification (I'm not saying there's a strong argument to be made there).

But I agree with others noting that _Carmen_ is a spectacularly poor choice of operas as not only does it include the murder of a woman the entire opera points inexorably to that event. One thing the Bieto production really brought forward to me is how much this opera is structured like a bull fight, and while a bull fight must be about respecting the bull it is also very much about killing it. Furthermore if there is no sympathy for the killer, Don José, then there is no real drama to the opera.

I would also agree with those noting that having Carmen kill Don José doesn't necessarily mean the opera has a feminist interpretation (though I'm not sure where or why "feminist" was added; the clearest thing to me is that they didn't want to show fatal violence against women, which this accomplishes).


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Carmen is unlikable? Hardly. .


I second this, strong character, people are killed for less then love.


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

Carmen is somewhat of a feminine Don Giovanni. Her end s therefore as sticky as the Dons. Escamillo says he flies only last a short time. It is a logical end if you read the libretto carefully as Jose is in the army as he once killed a man. He is a man of psychotic tendencies who unrequited desire for Carmen pushes him over the edge. The so-called 'feminine' ending makes a nonsense of what has gone before - it might satisfy the radical feminists but only because they are ignorant of the real drama, as obviously the idiot produce is. Carmen is one of the greatest operas - keep it that way.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Star said:


> *Carmen is somewhat of a feminine Don Giovanni. *Her end s therefore as sticky as the Dons. Escamillo says he flies only last a short time. It is a logical end if you read the libretto carefully as Jose is in the army as he once killed a man. He is a man of psychotic tendencies who unrequited desire for Carmen pushes him over the edge. The so-called 'feminine' ending makes a nonsense of what has gone before - it might satisfy the radical feminists but only because they are ignorant of the real drama, as obviously the idiot produce is. Carmen is one of the greatest operas - keep it that way.


that is a perfect comparison. how have I never thought of that?


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## davidglasgow (Aug 19, 2017)

Frankly if director and management are so literal - suggesting that clapping at the end of a tragic opera means you condone the actions of the characters(!) - they are in the wrong business. I enjoy Norma - doesn't mean I am pro-immolation. Ask for a show of hands supporting filicide after the Medea drama.

Tragedy and the way it holds up a mirror, encourages empathy, provides catharsis is good for society. Ask people after a great performance of Madama Butterfly - an emotional rollercoaster - why they are clapping? They'd probably answer because they feel they have lived the drama, they feel this fictional character's pain more than their own, they feel a kinship and understanding despite the character's experience probably being very different from their own. 

Their prejudices might actually take a knocking as they sympathise with characters which may belong to a different race e.g. Butterfly, other groups like the gypsy Carmen or different circumstances e.g. the courtesan Violetta or the impoverished Mimi. It can make it seem like great art because it beguiles and entertains and then shocks and horrifies.

Alternatively, if you are attached to the Teatro Maggio Musicale you could ask your audience why they are not ashamed - indeed how they "dare" applaud the suicide of a Japanese girl - assuming the worst about them, the performers and the art form like some Brechtian nightmare.


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

_'At a time when our society is having to confront the murder of women, how can we dare to applaud the killing of a woman?' says Cristiano Chiarot, head of the Teatro del Maggio Musicale._

Perhaps we should rephrase the question to:
'At a time when our society is having to confront the murder of women, how can we dare to use the issue to publicize my shabby little production'

Or am I just being cynical?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DonAlfonso said:


> _'*At a time when our society is having to confront the murder of women, how can we dare to applaud the killing of a woman?'* says Cristiano Chiarot, head of the Teatro del Maggio Musicale._
> 
> Perhaps we should rephrase the question to:
> 'At a time when our society is having to confront the murder of women, how can we dare to use the issue to publicize my shabby little production'
> ...


Of course if Ms Chiarot had any intelligence whatever she would realise that the applause which follows is for the performance of the opera not the killing of Carmen, which happens to be part of the drama. What about the applause at the end of Macbeth? Should we applaud someone's head being cut off? Have these literalists no imagination whatever?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Star said:


> Carmen is somewhat of a feminine Don Giovanni.


I really disagree with this. Don Giovanni is rich and powerful, and uses that to deceive women and get away without consequences (until the end).

Carmen is neither rich nor powerful, and does not deceive Don José.

So while Don Giovanni promises Zerlina that he will marry her (in order to seduce and then abandon her) Carmen introduces herself by saying she's untamable.

She doesn't promise marriage to Don José, but that they'll dance and drink at Lillas Pastia's, and she delivers on this. And it wasn't nothing for her to do this as she had many other offers; Escamilio showed interest and she brushed him off, and she was encouraged to get in on Dancaïre and Remendado's smuggling plan but she gave all of that up in order to wait for Don José.

When Don José arrives they have some time together, but as it is getting good he tries to leave. He only decides to stick with Carmen when it is his last resort after he fought with Zuniga.

"ah! si je t'aime, Carmen, tu m'aimeras?" I think Carmen holds up her end of the bargain. Don José does not.

Don José should have recognized that he was not going to get what he wanted from Carmen and either adjusted his expectations so as to enjoy his time with her, or should have gone back to Micaëla (or no one, or someone else).


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

I hear that the "Black Doris Plumb" is to be renamed??:scold:


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I would say something more along the lines of "Carmen is a pro-feminist character set in an non-feminist plot". Her licentious nature is celebrated in modern times (including by me. being horny does not make you bad person regardless of what's between your legs), but in Victorian times, nonono....that wasn't looked upon well.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I would say something more along the lines of "Carmen is a pro-feminist character set in an non-feminist plot". Her licentious nature is celebrated in modern times (including by me. being horny does not make you bad person regardless of what's between your legs), but in Victorian times, nonono....that wasn't looked upon well.


This is an important point. Often artists in the 19th century were protesting the norms of the society of their day. Decades later and society has changed. I have seen some commentators assume that artists from the past were supporting past beliefs and prejudices even where there is ample evidence that the opposite is the case. Hence Carmen is judged by some to be sexist. It would be interesting to study and assess Merimee's view on Carmen and the changes and adaptation by Bizet and his librettists and the meaning behind them all.

N.


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

mountmccabe said:


> I really disagree with this. Don Giovanni is rich and powerful, and uses that to deceive women and get away without consequences (until the end).
> 
> Carmen is neither rich nor powerful, and does not deceive Don José.
> 
> ...


I wish you would have counted the word 'somewhat' in your reckoning instead of ramming home a literal comparison to its bleak conclusion. Of course I didn't mean a comparison like you have said. I just meant that she seduces men as Don Giovanni seduces women - both to fulfil their own desires and both with an almost psychopathic disregard for the people they are seducing. I certainly didn't mean a literal line by line comparison that you have made.
Of course, you can make another comparison at the end where they both refuse - in different ways - to repent.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

The Conte said:


> This is an important point. Often artists in the 19th century were protesting the norms of the society of their day. Decades later and society has changed. I have seen some commentators assume that artists from the past were supporting past beliefs and prejudices even where there is ample evidence that the opposite is the case. Hence Carmen is judged by some to be sexist. It would be interesting to study and assess Merimee's view on Carmen and the changes and adaptation by Bizet and his librettists and the meaning behind them all.
> 
> N.


Exactly. Putting my point more clearly might be something more akin to "low-key likable sexually liberated character snuck into an opera meant to superficially appease politically correct masses". This is long before "assertiveness" and "direct communication skills" were valued by society. Conversing with those above the common folk was more of a social dance/ritual, and actual feelings were typically kept to one's self except to one's most romantic** attachments.

**I use "romantic" in a similar sense that it is used to refer to music and culture of the period. Any kind of intense, quasi-spiritual intimacy between two people could qualify.

PS: You know, come to think of it, this hasn't changed much. People in reasonably competitive positions have the same tendency to value-signal, appease political correctness of the time and live half of their life in order to adhere to these often convoluted standards of behavior (only then they were more honest about it. people today will do it, yet preach nonsense like "be yourself" with the straightest of faces and not the slightest idea of the absurd irony and hypocrisy of what they're saying).


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Star said:


> I wish you would have counted the word 'somewhat' in your reckoning instead of ramming home a literal comparison to its bleak conclusion. Of course I didn't mean a comparison like you have said. I just meant that she seduces men as Don Giovanni seduces women - both to fulfil their own desires and both with an almost psychopathic disregard for the people they are seducing. I certainly didn't mean a literal line by line comparison that you have made.
> Of course, you can make another comparison at the end where they both refuse - in different ways - to repent.


My point is that Carmen doesn't seduce men like Don Giovanni seduces women. I mean, sure, they both seduce people, but their methods, goals, and regard for the people they are seducing are entirely different. Even a weak comparison ignores their motivations.

I disagree that Carmen shows an "almost psychopathic disregard" for Don José. The libretto specifically shows her being honest with him, and giving up other things to spend time with him. We know that Don José is weak and has no heart for a life of freedom, but is it Carmen's responsibility to know him immediately? Of course she eventually sees that he is not doing well living on the run, and she encourages him to go away. "Va-t'en ! Va-t'en ! tu feras bien, notre métier ne te vaut rien !"

The creators knew that the public would be disapproving of Carmen (cf. what BalalaikaBoy and The Conte are talking about), so they worked to show her as reasonable to help balance the drama.

I can't think of anything about Don Giovanni put in to make him likeable. The best I can come up with is that he's dashing and charming, and I suppose he's not particularly awful to you if you happen to be a man unless you get in his way (or view women as your property and thus feel put out for yourself as the Don seduces the women around you) or are his servent and it's convenient for him to throw the blame on you. None of that adds up to sympathetic.

Don Giovanni is presented as someone who is seductive, but cruel. Carmen is presented as someone who is seductive, but thoughtful. The moralistic may disapprove of both of them because neither are actually interested in marriage, but I think that is a big part of what the opera _Carmen_ is doing, showing that one can be moral even if one is not marriage-focused.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

^^^ Along with all of the above, remember that Don Giovanni's whole purpose is to add names to his list. Carmen isn't that cold and calculating.


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

The Conte said:


> This is an important point. Often artists in the 19th century were protesting the norms of the society of their day. Decades later and society has changed. I have seen some commentators assume that artists from the past were supporting past beliefs and prejudices even where there is ample evidence that the opposite is the case. Hence Carmen is judged by some to be sexist. It would be interesting to study and assess Merimee's view on Carmen and the changes and adaptation by Bizet and his librettists and the meaning behind them all.
> 
> N.


In Merimee's story we never get to meet Carmen at all. Everything we know of her is related by Don Jose, her murderer. So we cannot evaluate her character or actions, only his (possibly self-serving) account of them.
The opera does not state, or imply, that the story is a flashback. I have seen numerous productions that do present it as a flashback as Don Jose sits in prison or faces the firing squad. I believe this is a mistake and was not Bizet's intention. By presenting the story in 'real time' it allows us to have direct knowledge of Carmen and thus the opportunity for each of us to judge for ourselves.


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

mountmccabe said:


> My point is that Carmen doesn't seduce men like Don Giovanni seduces women. I mean, sure, they both seduce people, but their methods, goals, and regard for the people they are seducing are entirely different. Even a weak comparison ignores their motivations.
> 
> I *disagree that Carmen shows an "almost psychopathic disregard" for Don José. The libretto specifically shows her being honest with him, and giving up other things to spend time with him. We know that Don José is weak and has no heart for a life of freedom, but is it Carmen's responsibility to know him immediately? *Of course she eventually sees that he is not doing well living on the run, and she encourages him to go away. "Va-t'en ! Va-t'en ! tu feras bien, notre métier ne te vaut rien !"
> 
> ...


The libretto shows that Carmens reasons for seducing Don Jose are also because she wants to exploit her power over men. The Haberna is sung at him as he's the only man actually not looking at her - Jose - and she ends flngng the flower at his feet. Another reason is that the smuggler gang want another recruit and she says she'll try and get him on board. When Jose asks her if she'll love him she says 'yes'. Of course her meaning of 'love' is just a brief affair. She doesn't care how many hearts she breaks. So right from the beginning there is the total disregard for the other person. Carmen is only interested in what she can get out of the relationship. Whether Jose's life is destroyed by his desertion is of no consequence to her. Even when the toreador goes to woo her he admits Carmen's affairs don't last six months. It is this complete disregard for the feelings of others in her desire to conquer men with no remorse for the destruction she has left in her wake that makes it psychopathic. Honestly with Don Jose at the end is only to show him she has power over him, not in any regard for him whatever. This is all part of a psychopathic personality.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> that is a perfect comparison. how have I never thought of that?


Honestly, I envision *Don Giovanni*, *Carmen*, and the *Duke of Mantua* all sharing an apartment where they come and go with their respective womanizing/man-eating ways......


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