# "Underrepresented" classical countries



## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

This subject kind of got brought up in another thread and I think it makes a great topic unto itself...

We all know many composers from the "big" classical countries...in other words, how many composers can we name from the U.S., Britain, Germany, Austria, Russia, and so on? Probably quite a bit! But what about countries like Greece, Sweden, New Zealand, Japan, China, Romania, etc.?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Sweden has got some good ones; Berwald, Stenhammer, Atterberg, Alfven...


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> countries like Greece, Sweden, New Zealand, Japan, China, Romania, etc.?


Etc? You put China in one line with Sweden, so maybe let's ask why there is no well-known classical composer from Gabon? This is (or, at least, it was) completely diffrent culture, so it seems quite obvious to me, why there are not much classical composers.


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## msegers (Oct 17, 2008)

With a literary background, I'd say the same about the literature of those countries. The classical music of Spain--as well as its great literature (aside from _Don Quixote_)--is not well known, at least in the US.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Ah, Spain...I love de Falla and Granados.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Because classical music as we consider it is 'western art music' courties like china are not likely to produce much. They do however have a rich 'classical' tradition of their own and the music which belongs to those traditions ar econsidered by thier countymen as subtanitial and important as we consider Beethoven, Mozart and Stockhausen. One country which really has taken, consciously, a different route is Japan where even the tuning of the instruments has no relation with our own. The intervals they use and rythmic configurations have very little in common with western music. The scale has no tempering as in western music so it sounds 'out of tune' to us and the rythms used are not subdivisions by halving the previous value so it also sounds 'meterless'.
I reckon the same must apply to many other cultures in Africa, Australasia etc. 
I know that Balanese 'Gamalan' orchestras have the bizzare tradition of inherriting the 'secret phrase' from generation to generation. The father who plays in the 'orchestra' learned the phrase from his father and he will teach it to his son. To us this seems weird. It's like my father teaching me the bass part of Beethoven's 5th which I would memorise and then join the orchestra which would only play this piece (infact these orchestras have a small repertoire of mostly ceremonial pieces)!
As far as underratred coutries go we should be careful to appreciate their indigenous culture. As far as european countries which should have their music recognised more certainly Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Switzerland, Latvia, Iceland and Portugal feature strongly.

Portugese composers anyone?


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> Sweden has got some good ones; Berwald, Stenhammer, Atterberg, Alfven...


And Roman, Kraus, de Frumerie, Lindblad, Wiren, Rosenberg, Larsson, Petterson, Nystroem, Olsson, Norman, Martinsson, Sandström, Peterson-Berger, Rangström and others.

We've got lots of them. We just haven't got a Sibelius or a Grieg. We stay below the radar, like Swedes do.


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

post-minimalist said:


> Portugese composers anyone?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Portuguese_composers

Ok I cheated!!


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Ah, Johann Helmich Roman. I have a disc of his music. Fine stuff. Rangtrom is great, and I do enjoy Alfven as well. I've heard mcuh about Stenhammer...gotta check him out.


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## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

Well who's ever heard of a *Croatian* composer? And there still were and are some.

We had *Luka Sorkočević*, his brother Antun Sorkočević and *Ivan Mane Jarnović *(who was a well-known violin virtuoso all over Europe) in 18th century Dubrovnik - pre-classicists, very galant music, short symphonies (5-9 mins).

The very first Croatian piano concerto was written by our most famous woman composer, *Dora Pejačević*, as late as in 1913. And her Symphony in F sharp minor is the first full romantic symphony in Croatian classical music.

Later on, we had some composers better known to our Croatian public, like Vatroslav Lisinski, Ivan pl. Zajc (pl. being an abbreviation for _plemeniti_ = 'noble'), Blagoje Bersa, Stjepan Šulek, *Jakov Gotovac*, Natko Devčić,* Bruno Bjelinski*, *Boris Papandopulo*, Ivo Malec etc. Some of their pieces are pretty good and highly original.

Personally, I know very little about my country's classical music. This knowledge of mine is limited to Luka Sorkočević and a bit of those later, 20th-century composers.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Very interesting, Kisztfreak. I have to admit, I have never heard of ANY composers from Croatia, but you have provided a tantalizing list...!


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## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> but you have provided a tantalizing list...!


I'll take it as a thanks...  So I'll add Zajc to make it even more so - well, he is important.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

TresPicos said:


> And Roman, Kraus, de Frumerie, Lindblad, Wiren, Rosenberg, Larsson, Petterson, Nystroem, Olsson, Norman, Martinsson, Sandström, Peterson-Berger, Rangström and others.
> 
> We've got lots of them. We just haven't got a Sibelius or a Grieg. We stay below the radar, like Swedes do.


I should have thought of Pettersson. I'm not familiar enough with his music to have a opinion about him myself, but I've seen some go as far as to call him one of the most important (though underrated) composers of the 20th century. I've recently been listening to Neeme Jarvi's recording of the Hugo Alfven symphonies (and rhapsodies and other orchestral music) which I like quite a bit. Especially the second and fourth symphonies are impressive.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I just keyed in "Canadian Composers" into Wikipedia and came up with quite a list, mostly 20th century and later just like the US. Sadly I have never heard of any of them except Glenn Gould, and I didn't know he was a composer.

I would say then Canada is underepresented in terms of classical household names. They have contributed some of the greatest pop/rock acts on the planet however.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Weston said:


> I just keyed in "Canadian Composers" into Wikipedia and came up with quite a list, mostly 20th century and later just like the US. Sadly I have never heard of any of them except Glenn Gould, and I didn't know he was a composer.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

We [NZ] do have a lot of modern composers but I am not familiar with all of them , these are a few that spring to mind, apologies to those that I have missed. 

*Douglas Lilburn *Our most well known composer studied under VW and some of his music has the great mans influence

*Gillian Whitehead * also does a bit on Organ, Actually she is a great Organist.

*Jenny McLeod
David Farquhar 
Gareth Farr* A way out Percussionist
*David Hamilton
Jack Body.

John Psathas * My Favourite 
*John Rimmer*


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

In the "Favorite "Unknown" Composers" thread I remember naming quite a few Mexican Composers, here's the link... 
http://www.talkclassical.com/4623-favorite-unknown-composers-3.html#post40101

Mexico had quite the thriving Baroque music scene back in the 1700's.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Andante said:


> We [NZ] do have a lot of modern composers but I am not familiar with all of them , these are a few that spring to mind, apologies to those that I have missed.
> 
> *Douglas Lilburn *Our most well known composer studied under VW and some of his music has the great mans influence
> 
> ...


I understand Lilburn sounds a lot like Sibelius?


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## Zasranec (Mar 19, 2009)

post-minimalist said:


> They do however have a rich 'classical' tradition of their own and the music which belongs to those traditions ar econsidered by thier countymen as subtanitial and important as we consider Beethoven, Mozart and Stockhausen....
> 
> I reckon the same must apply to many other cultures in Africa, Australasia etc.
> ...
> As far as underratred coutries go we should be careful to appreciate their indigenous culture.


Funny thing though is that Chinese musicians (as well as many other Asian ones) are interested in playing Mozart or Tchaikovsky. But how many American or Russian musicians want to play traditional Chinese music? Asian public is happy to hear European music performed in concerts. Are Europeans or other Westerners eager to hear monotonous Asian music (not to mention pay to listen to it?) I doubt it. Now why is that?

As far as African music goes, you do not think that African tribal chants are on the same level as Mozart's symphonies or Bethhoven's sonatas, do you? 

There is nothing wrong with "appreciating" indigenous cultures of course, but the problem is that there is not much in terms of culture in many undeveloped or developing societies to begin with. At least in European sense.

Primitive societies (of the third world) are centuries behind western ones in terms of developing, so appreciating their culture is kind of similar to appreciating "culture" of stone age Europe, rather than of XIX-XX centuries' Europe. Now which one is more advanced?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

As far as China and other Asian countries are concerned, there are certainly "classical" composers in the western tradition. I'm not talking about these countries' own classical music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_composers


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## Gladiator (Dec 4, 2007)

I remember listening to Alfven symphony No.2, I quite liked it. 
Which country is producing the best composers today? Whose music is actually being performed? 
I know that in Finland it is mandatory that everyone studies composition.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Finland is indeed a hotbed of musical activity. So many composers, conductors and singers come from there. 

Alfven is a great romantic/nationalist composer. As Trespicos's earlier post demonstrates, there are several composers of note from that country, though none of them may have the international fame as other Nordic composers like Sibelius, Grieg, and I would add Nielsen to that list.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Zasranec said:


> But how many American or Russian musicians want to play traditional Chinese music? Asian public is happy to hear European music performed in concerts. Are Europeans or other Westerners eager to hear monotonous Asian music (not to mention pay to listen to it?) I doubt it. Now why is that?


Yes I'm one of those eager ones to listen and pay and I'm proud to say it. Monotonous? pfhh, please.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I understand Lilburn sounds a lot like Sibelius?


Could be to some, but I really think he is closer to Vaughan Williams at least to these old Ears.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

World Violist said:


>


Amazing! And educational. And funny too.



Andante said:


> *Douglas Lilburn *Our most well known composer studied under VW and some of his music has the great mans influence


I'm pleased to have recently caught on to Lilburn's work. I just ordered a Naxos disc of his three symphonies after really enjoying a disc of his other orchestral works. If the symphonies are even half as good it will be a worthwhile listen.

He may have studied with Vaughan-Williams but I hear an ever so slight hint of Bruckner melodically too in pieces such as _The Drysdale Overture_.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

i had post a topic on Chinese music here :
http://www.talkclassical.com/4183-modern-chinese-orchestra.html

I think Tan Dun can represent Chinese classical music, his works like Crouching Tiger OST. But again China,Japan,Korea,Indian, and many SE Asia countries developt their own music different from western classical music.

I already asked about Greece classical music here:
http://www.talkclassical.com/4921-greeces-classical-music.html

and for other countries that "underrepresented" what I can think right now is maybe Holland,Belgium, Switzertland, and more far away australia?? the dutch had been great in painting and architecture.


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## nickgray (Sep 28, 2008)

Russia, perhaps? Yeah, I know that it's not "really" underrepresented, but... apart from Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich everything else is sort of underrepresented (oh, well, there's Mussorgsky's "Pictures" (and "Mountain"), but apart from that...).


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Come on, there's also: Stravinsky, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, Scriabin, Glinka, Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Cui - and they're just the ones that most people would have heard of.. 

Not underrepresented at all.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Zasranec said:


> As far as African music goes, you do not think that African tribal chants are on the same level as Mozart's symphonies or Bethhoven's sonatas, do you?


It doesn't matter what I think, but an african might see his tribal chant, which may have been handed down for hundreds of years un changed, as at least as important to him as Mozart is to me or you.

Cultural values cannot be judged unilaterally, these values depend on the context in which they are found.

Now, as far as complexity, beauty, expressivness, and other possible criteria go Balanese Gamalan music must be up there with the wesern greats (not least for the Balanese).

I only brought the 'ethnic' problem up to stress the fact that not all countries chose to take part in the 'classical music race'. In fact some like Japan traditionally chose to opt out, but when they do decide to take on western music they are at least equals to the western exponents.

FC


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Lisztfreak said:


> Well who's ever heard of a *Croatian* composer?


Croatian composer with an asterisk... *Franz von Suppé*!*


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## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

Oh deary me, the sheer parochialism! Japan, China, India, and various parts of Africa (usually divided into North African Muslim and Black African music) etc. all have *their own* classical musics.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

post-minimalist said:


> Now, as far as complexity, beauty, expressivness, and other possible criteria go Balanese Gamalan music must be up there with the wesern greats (not least for the Balanese).


It seems to have left it's impression on the French Composers during that World Exhibition that I always hear about.


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## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> Croatian composer with an asterisk... *Franz von Suppé*!*


Well, shame on me, I have never realised he had any connection with Croatia... now I've visited Wikipedia... thank you for pointing that out!


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Weston said:


> I'm pleased to have recently caught on to Lilburn's work. I just ordered a Naxos disc of his three symphonies after really enjoying a disc of his other orchestral works. If the symphonies are even half as good it will be a worthwhile listen.
> 
> He may have studied with Vaughan-Williams but I hear an ever so slight hint of Bruckner melodically too in pieces such as _The Drysdale Overture_.


This outside knowledge of Lilburn puts me to shame I must listen again with fresh ears 
Also regarding* Naxos* a few years ago they were all set to move their operation to NZ but asked the Government to give them a tax break during the set up, this was refused so it was called off, a pity it would have done nothing but good for both parties.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

jurianbai said:


> and for other countries that "underrepresented" what I can think right now is maybe Holland,Belgium, Switzertland, and more far away *australia*??


Australia has quite alot of composers of a high standard. The most famous is probably Peter Sculthorpe, a Tasmanian now in his 80th year.

Also active are Richard Mills, Philip Bracanin, Richard Meale, Graham Koehne, Brett Dean, Elena Kats-Chernin and Carl Vine.

As noted above, with Russia, some countries are well represented, but only by a relatively few composers, comparatively.

Hungary, where I was born, has a number of giants - Liszt, Bartok, Kodaly, Ligeti (although an exile) & Kurtag. On the lighter side, there were Lehar and Kalman. But not many people have heard of Ferenc Erkel, the most important opera composer & as well known in Hungary as Verdi. & there are many others, perhaps less well known even in Hungary, such as Hubay, Szervanszky, Szokolay & Harsanyi.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

i think i have heard Sculthorpe's string quartet before, never realise he is Aussie.


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## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

I thought I might upload some examples of Croatian classical music! These are taken from a set of CDs used together with a Musical Education textbook for grammar-schools in Croatia. Therefore, since they are really widely used, distributed, copied and re-copied, and since there is no warning concerning copyright in the textbook itself, I'll venture to upload some music here.

1. *Josip Štolcer Slavenski *(1896-1955): 'Voda zvira' ('Water is springing forth' - flowing out of a spring, that's what I mean), for mixed choir. Performed by the mixed choir of the Cultural and Artistic society INA; Bojan Pogrmilović, conductor.
This chorus is based on an old folk song from the northern Croatian region of Međimurje, between Slovenia and Hungary. It's a love song, but imbued with philosophical and highly melancholy tinges typical for folk poetry of the region. This piece is sometimes sung at funerals. Frankly, I don't know why.

2. *Bruno Bjelinski *(1909-1992): Concertino for Horn and Strings, I.mvt. Allegro. Performed by Prerad Detiček, horn; String Orchestra of the Croatian National Radio and Television; Igor Gjadrov, conductor.

3. *Luka Sorkočević *(1734-1789): Symphony No.3 in D, II.mvt. Andante, for small pre-classical orchestra. Performed by Zagreb Soloists.
This is a quite well known tune in Croatia, having featured in a number of radio and TV jingles and opening themes.

4. *Dora Pejačević *(1885-1923): 'Ruža' iz ciklusa 'Život cvijeća', op.19 ('Rose' from the cycle 'The Life of Flowers'), for piano. Performed by Ida Gamulin.
Dora Pejačević is one of our most important composers. As I've already said, she composed the very first Croatian piano concerto (1913) and the first full-blooded romantic symphony (1916-1920, premiered in Dresden), apart from other chamber, vocal and concertante works.

I hope you can all see the diacritics properly!


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## shsherm (Jan 24, 2008)

I traveled to the former Yugoslavia in 1975 and heard an opera in Zagreb said to be the national opera of Yugoslavia but have no memory of the name or the composer but do recall that the music was quite good. Perhaps Lisztfreak knows more about this opera and can enlighten me further.


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## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

shsherm said:


> I traveled to the former Yugoslavia in 1975 and heard an opera in Zagreb said to be the national opera of Yugoslavia but have no memory of the name or the composer but do recall that the music was quite good. Perhaps Lisztfreak knows more about this opera and can enlighten me further.


Of Yugoslavia as a whole? Hardly possible, since all the nations of former Yugoslavia had their national music and sang their own songs, some of which were banned because of their revolutionary or overtly patriotic character.

In Croatia, it could have easily been 'Nikola Šubić Zrinski' by Ivan pl. Zajc, about the siege of Sziget (nowadays in Hungary) by Suleiman the Magnificent in 1566. Or perhaps 'Porin' by Vatroslav Lisinski. The third possibility is 'Ero s onoga svijeta' by Jakov Gotovac, but the first two seem more probable.


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## RocredRecords (Feb 13, 2019)

Lisztfreak said:


> I thought I might upload some examples of Croatian classical music! These are taken from a set of CDs used together with a Musical Education textbook for grammar-schools in Croatia. Therefore, since they are really widely used, distributed, copied and re-copied, and since there is no warning concerning copyright in the textbook itself, I'll venture to upload some music here.
> 
> 1. *Josip Štolcer Slavenski *(1896-1955): 'Voda zvira' ('Water is springing forth' - flowing out of a spring, that's what I mean), for mixed choir. Performed by the mixed choir of the Cultural and Artistic society INA; Bojan Pogrmilović, conductor.
> This chorus is based on an old folk song from the northern Croatian region of Međimurje, between Slovenia and Hungary. It's a love song, but imbued with philosophical and highly melancholy tinges typical for folk poetry of the region. This piece is sometimes sung at funerals. Frankly, I don't know why.
> ...


Last year we had the great opportunity and privilege to record the Croatian string ensemble 'Acoustic Project String Ensemble' playing Luka Sorkočević (as well as pieces by Bach and Grieg). They also played a contemporary Croatian piece 'Towards the Stars' by the double bass player, composer and artistic leader of the ensemble Dubravko Palanović.

You can listen to the whole album on Youtube: Acoustic Project String Ensemble - Studio Live

Despite the title 'Studio Live' it is not a live recording, but a recording made to capture the essence of what is so special with a really good live recording. Hope You enjoy it!


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Heh, cool chance for some musical patriotism!

So, guys here are some good Serbian representatives of classical music:

1.* Stevan Stojanović Mokranjac 1856 - 1914*, probably the most important Serbian composer, his main inspiration was Balkan folk music and Orthodox liturgical music. The 2 of his masterpieces are *Rukoveti (The Garlands), a cycle of choral compositions based on folk music from the Balkan region* and *The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrhysostom*. If you really want to discover Orthodox (and Serbian in particular) liturgical music, look no further:

The Garlands, part 1: 



The Garlands, part 2: 



The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom: 




2.* Stevan Hristić (1885 -1958)* - a representative of late romanticism (which arrived in our parts a bit later). His most famous work is a ballet *The Legend of Ohrid*, in which the most famous part is called Grlica (The Turtle dove),

The Legend of Ohrid (whole work): 



The turtle dove: 




He also composed an opera called Suton (Dusk). Here are 3 suites from this opera:




*
3. Milan Ristić (1908 - 1982) *- a composer influenced by modern developments, but still predominately conservative. He also composed some works in quarter- and sixth-tone systems, during his studies.
His most famous work though is probably his Second Symphony:






*
4. Vlado Milošević (1901-1990)* - the most important Bosnian Serb composer, from Banja Luka. Similarly to Mokrnjac he gave classical treatment to folk songs from the region of Bosnian Krajina and Zmijanje in his work Pjesme sa Zmijanja (Songs from Zmijanje). Here's a link (I think it's not whole work though): 




Also notable is his work chamber work Kameni Spavač (Stone Sleeper) for strings and includes also poetry recitation:


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

if we understand the term "underrepresented" to mean unknown disproportionatelly to the quality of the CM output, then 
*Armenia* (Arutiunian, Babajanian, Khachaturian, Komitas, Mansurian, Mirzoyan...) and *Azerbaijan *(Garayev, Hajibeyov, Amirov...) and *Ukraine*. And also *South and Central America*


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## asiago12 (May 2, 2019)

Zasranec said:


> Funny thing though is that Chinese musicians (as well as many other Asian ones) are interested in playing Mozart or Tchaikovsky. But how many American or Russian musicians want to play traditional Chinese music? Asian public is happy to hear European music performed in concerts. Are Europeans or other Westerners eager to hear monotonous Asian music (not to mention pay to listen to it?) I doubt it. Now why is that?
> 
> As far as African music goes, you do not think that African tribal chants are on the same level as Mozart's symphonies or Bethhoven's sonatas, do you?
> 
> ...


I agree. Most of the western classical music has specific rules and it is sophisticated..


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## asiago12 (May 2, 2019)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Croatian composer with an asterisk... *Franz von Suppé*!*


Francesco Ezechiele Ermenegildo, cavaliere di Suppé-Demelli.. He was not croatian.. but italian-austrian


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Canadian classical music composers - 

Robert Aitken
István Anhalt
Louis Applebaum
Violet Archer
Michael Conway Baker
Steve Barakatt
John Beckwith
Denys Bouliane
John Burge
Brian Cherney
Eleanor Joanne Daley
Victor Davies
R. Nathaniel Dett
John Estacio
Malcolm Forsyth
André Gagnon
Steven Gellman
Peter Hannan
Stephen Hatfield
Christos Hatzis
Gary Kulesha
Calixa Lavallee - (composer of our "catchiest" tune - "O Canada"...)
Rachel Laurin
Alexina Louie
Hummie Mann
Bruce Mather
Joni Mitchell
Oskar Morawetz
Marjan Mozetich
Owen Pallett
Randolph Peters
Imant Raminsh
John Rea
Godfrey Ridout
John Robertson
Robbie Robertson
James Rolfe
George Ross
Vahram Sargsyan
Giancarlo Scalia
R. Murray Schafer
Howard Shore
Mark Sirett
Harry Somers
Donald Steven
Claude Vivier
John Weinzweig
Healey Willan
Neil Young


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

This is a good start! A number of composers could be added. But rather than get into "what composers belong here," etc., I wonder if you have any thoughts on how to have dialogue with people who know little of Canadian music. I've posted a lot on TalkClassical, but find it difficult to comment on my own country's classical music.

From the above list, and to my knowledge: 

- Joni Mitchell, Owen Pallett, Robbie Robertson, and Neil Young are known in one or more of the rock, folk, pop, and jazz (Joni) worlds
- Howard Shore, Louis Applebaum, Michael Conway Baker, Victor Davies are known (to varying degrees) in both the film and classical worlds


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Post deleted... Complex intersection of music, culture, politics, and religion in Canada belongs in a different thread.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Greece, at least in Germany and as far as I know, is doing well with great composers as Skalkotas, Kalomiris, Hatzidakis, Xenakis, Antoniou (my teacher) Astrinidis, etc. Of course, all these composers don't have the fame of Beethoven or Wagner, but, for us, who know the serious music in a certain degree, are well known and respected.


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