# Natural, Harmonic, and Melodic minors



## caters

Now, I understand that there is more than 1 kind of minor. But really, why learn the melodic minor at all? Why use it? To me, it sounds like it would be better off as Major than melodic minor. For example take A minor:

A B C D E F# G# A

That is the A melodic minor scale. There is tension in there because you essentially have a minor tetrachord and a major tetrachord. But really, if I wanted that F# G# A and I wanted A to be the root, I would just use A major instead of using the melodic minor. And if I wanted tension in a minor piece, I could easily use the diminished 7th instead of the melodic minor. And this is coming from a pianist who had to learn the natural, harmonic, and melodic for every minor.

Now as far as the harmonic minor, there are 3 categories I have in terms of use. There are those for which I think it is totally fine to use because the natural minor is more cumbersome to play. There are those for which I am on the borderline about using it. And there are those that I think the harmonic should absolutely not be used for because it makes it sound too much like its parallel Major.

Fine to use Harmonic:

C#m, Abm/G#m, and Ebm/D#m

Borderline:

F#m, Bm, Em, and Am

Never use Harmonic unless it is a special case:

Dm, Gm, Cm, Fm, and Bbm

Especially for C minor I think it is wrong to use the harmonic for the first 5 flat minors which are also the emotional 5. That is unless you want to transition to the parallel major. Than I'm fine with the harmonic being used. But if you are just using it for comfort or for that major sound and not actually doing a transition, than absolutely do not use it for the emotional 5. 

Sorry Bach but that is just how I feel about this. I know you used the melodic and the harmonic a lot in your minor pieces, especially your fugues. 

Do you guys agree with my reasoning on never using the melodic and only using the harmonic for some keys instead of all of them? If not explain why.


----------



## Larkenfield

It may also depend upon the melody which scale to use.


----------



## EdwardBast

Welcome Caters,
The different kinds of minor scales are abstracted from the materials of practical composition. Because so much modal mixture is standard in minor mode compositions, both the raised and lowered 6th and 7th degrees come into play in different contexts, and they are variously harmonized with chords indigenous to the minor mode and with ones borrowed from the parallel major as well. Why learn the melodic minor? Because its patterns occur in many compositions and because understanding its derivation and relation to real music is essential theory.

Do you guys agree with my reasoning on never using the melodic and only using the harmonic for some keys instead of all of them? If not explain why.

Huh? Do you mean to say that if you are reading something by Bach and he uses the harmonic minor in a key you wish he hadn't, you will refuse to play it? All forms of the minor mode occur in all keys in real compositions and no further explanation is required for why pianists should learn them.


----------



## millionrainbows

I think the important difference in minor scales is harmonic, i.e. what chords you get when you build chords on the scale steps.

The dorian minor differs from the natural minor by only one note, the raised sixth. Big deal, right? Until you build chords, and that means dorian will have a minor I chord, but its IV will be major instead of minor, like in natural minor. This gives us modal progressions like Santana's "Evil Ways" and other songs which are minor, but use a major chord on IV.
The melodic minor, A B C D E F# G# A, gives a major on IV _and_ a major on V.

The harmonic minor gives us a minor on IV, and a major on V.


----------



## caters

millionrainbows said:


> I think the important difference in minor scales is harmonic, i.e. what chords you get when you build chords on the scale steps.
> 
> The dorian minor differs from the natural minor by only one note, the raised sixth. Big deal, right? Until you build chords, and that means dorian will have a minor I chord, but its IV will be major instead of minor, like in natural minor. This gives us modal progressions like Santana's "Evil Ways" and other songs which are minor, but use a major chord on IV.
> The melodic minor, A B C D E F# G# A, gives a major on IV _and_ a major on V.
> 
> The harmonic minor gives us a minor on IV, and a major on V.


Yes but that major on IV and major on V is why I wouldn't use the melodic minor and instead just use the parallel major and that major on V and minor on IV is why I would not use harmonic minor for the first 5 flat minors, be on the borderline about using it for A minor and the first 3 sharp minors, and be fine using it for minors between Bb minor and F# minor on the circle of fifths.


----------



## philoctetes

I don't quite follow the reasoning, but I think it doesn't apply to my instruments.


----------



## millionrainbows

philoctetes said:


> I don't quite follow the reasoning, but I think it doesn't apply to my instruments.


Well, there's this thing called a "triad." It can be major or minor. (or aug, or dim)


----------



## philoctetes

millionrainbows said:


> Well, there's this thing called a "triad." It can be major or minor. (or aug, or dim)


My GF just got her first piano. You sound like me talking to her.


----------



## SONNET CLV

You see … all this confusion when all you have to do is adopt a Schoenbergian 12-tone row and make your music atonally. No natural, melodic, harmonic problems. Just musical sounds and intriguing listening.


----------



## drmdjones

I think I can clarify this issue. There is only one minor scale, like there's only one minor key (we never say "the key of D harmonic minor," we just say "D minor," and it has variable sixth and seventh degrees. The distinction between the "three types" of minor scale is artificial. As was mentioned above, all three "types" will occur in a single work but there's only one scale being used. 

So, the sixth and/or seventh degrees may be higher or lower. Let's take the key of A minor as our example. The sixth note may be F or F#, the seventh may be G or G#. Which versions of these scale degrees are used depends primarily on melodic voice leading. BTW this is where the name "melodic minor" comes from.

Here are the rules in tonal music: 

When 7 goes up to 1(8) it must be raised producing a half-step motion since this creates a stronger melodic cadence than moving a whole step from lowered 7 to 1.

When 6 goes up to raised 7 it must also be raised to avoid the melodic augmented 2nd between F and G#.

So, if a melody in a minor key goes 6-7-1 the 6 and 7 are both raised, F#-G#-A. 

When descending 1-7, 7 is not raised since there is no melodic cadence, the whole step is okay. Therefore 6 need not be raised either. There will be a whole step from 7 down to 6 then a half step down to 5. A-G-F-E. This is NOT the natural minor scale, it's THE minor scale in one of it's permutations.

So if we play up and down the scale we raise 6 and 7 going up, and lower them going down. Sound familiar?

If the melodic cadences don't involve 6, going 1-7-1 instead, then 7 is raised and lowered 6 will act as an upper neighbor to 5 (this is a very famous half step, used all the time in minor keys, called the "pathetic" half step, the half step of suffering!) But I digress. So in this case you will only see the G#, the F will be natural. A typical melody would go 1-7-1-6-5. 7 is raised, 6 is not. But this is NOT the harmonic minor scale, it's just THE minor scale in one of it's permutations.

This has been the discussion of the melodic aspect of the minor scale. I will discuss the harmonic aspect in a separate post.


----------



## drmdjones

As promised here is the harmonic angle on minor keys.

Scale degree 7 will be raised when in a dominant (V) environment. In A minor, V=EG#B. The raised 7th degree is part on this chord. We are talking about two sides of the same coin here when we say that V will accompany raised 7 and that raised 7 is part of V. And, as we saw in the previous discussion, if 6 leads to raised 7 it must also be raised to avoid the exotic melodic augmented 2nd.

So if we have V for a measure and one part (call it the melody if you like) goes 5-6-7-1-7-6-5, then 6 and 7 are raised going up (NB) and going down. This is because we must have G# going up and down to fit with and to create (the coin again) chord V. The melodic rule then stipulates that 6 must also be raised going up and down.

In this example, 6 is a passing tone. If raised 6 is harmonized it will usually be part of IV, as mentioned in previous posts. But it need not be harmonized, it will still be raised going up and down due to the raised 7.

When raised 6 is harmonized by IV and raised 7 is harmonized by V then we get the IV-V progression in the minor key. The minor key having been established and still in our ears, this progression does not sound like a major key.

In a non-dominant environment, 7, and therefore 6 will not be raised.

So if we have chord i for a measure and some part goes 5-6-7-1-7-6-5 then 6 and 7 are lowered going up and down because 7 doesn't need to be raised to fit with V. And by the melodic rule, if 7 is lowered then 6 is also lowered going up and down.

There is a possibility of a rare minor V chord containing the lowered 7. This 7 will progress downward and this will not be a cadential progression.

There are also modal progressions, like the Santana example cited above, that may make different uses of 6 and 7, but I've been discussing tonal music, not modal music.

There you have it, simple eh?


----------



## EdwardBast

drmdjones said:


> There you have it, simple eh?


You really didn't read the OP did you? Or answer the questions actually asked?


----------



## drmdjones

My intent was to explain the basic functions of the minor key so that people could answer their own questions. I suppose I could have been more specific regarding the OP. Apologies.


----------



## Larkenfield

I may have misunderstood you, but I can't go along with your explanation or use of minor scales based upon what I can understand of your explanations. Minor scales or chords are not key specific; they are interval specific and have to do with the relationship between the half steps and whole steps in a minor scale regardless of the key it's in. Their use has nothing to do whether the key is A minor, E flat minor, C minor, or "Z" flat minor. The keys should be able to follow where the music wants to go.

The difference between the different minor scales, mentioned by Millions, is that the chords built on them will be different. In the natural minor, the dominant fifth will be a minor chord. In the harmonic minor, the dominant fifth will be a major chord, and so on based upon the chords that are built on every scale degree.

I see no justification to avoid any minor scale in certain keys... and why just consider only the top tetrachord of the scale when it's the bottom tetrachord that determines whether the scale is minor or major? It turns the use of major and minor scales into technical confusion. You don't wanna be thinking major scales in a minor key.

All minor scales are necessary and important in any key, and all the variations are dependent on what you want as a dominant fifth, either minor or major, perhaps depending on the melody or the other chord progressions in the song. If the song is in A minor and the melody happens to have in F sharp or G sharp in it, that naturally points to using the melodic minor scale and the chords built upon the degrees of that scale. It makes no sense to me to avoid the use of minor scales in certain keys when all minor scales function the same way and might be necessary to use in certain cases depending upon how the composition modulates. So I must say that I haven't found your theory useful in a practical sense and I've played countless songs and chord changes as a jazz musician for many years. I would rather start over from scratch and learn properly.

The following information presented by the great jazz musician Gary Burton should be of use for anyone who wants to compose or improvise. Avoiding certain minor scales because they are in certain keys makes no sense to me. So I would begin again and learn from a master and the proper way of studying major and minor chords will serve someone in classical music just as much as in jazz forms and improvisation. Only the notation is different and of course so is the idiom.


----------



## drmdjones

Thank you for your input. The jazz (modal) approach is different from the tonal approach in many ways that would require too much space to enumerate, though I would be happy to do so if asked.

Just to touch on one of your points, I deal only with the upper tetrachord because it is the variable part on the scale; the part that distinguishes the "three types" of the minor scale. The lower tetrachord is consistent in all three types. 

I guess the main point I would like to make is that, in tonal classical music, there is only one type of minor scale having two variable notes which vary according to melodic and harmonic context. We do not say " this bit is harmonic minor, this bit is natural minor, etc., only that "this is in the minor key."


----------



## EdwardBast

drmdjones said:


> My intent was to explain the basic functions of the minor key so that people could answer their own questions. I suppose I could have been more specific regarding the OP. Apologies.


No apology needed! I admire your thoroughness and generosity. I was just calling attention to where the pearls were landing.


----------



## BabyGiraffe

Funny that you mentioned tetrachords, but I doubt that you know how ancient Greeks came with them and the divisions of the octave and the division of tetrachords - research about mathematical means...

You don't need justifications for using any scale, chord, interval or whatever in music aside from how it sounds... I would skip that part about "emotional 5" and similar nonsense - what kind of instruments are you playing? In what kind of tuning?

Also, generalizations based on 12 ET don't translate well to all systems and even to older music (which as we know was in well-tempered, meantone or pythagorean systems).

Last - there are other minor scales that you didn't mention - the blues/Indian with 0125 or 0345 upper tetrachord, dorian mode or with some kind of gypsy/Indian sounding scales with a minor pentachord with a tritone instead of perfect fifth and whatever upper part is played (we can use all the tetrachords here to form new scales). 

Forte's classification (based on the dihedral group) lists all of the different scales in 12ET and is studied in universities these days.

If you are looking for melodic minor pieces aside from classical music for justification in other contexts - see plenty of early jazz - think Gershwin was using it; harmonic minor - all over Balkan folk music (also North African music).


----------



## caters

BabyGiraffe said:


> Funny that you mentioned tetrachords, but I doubt that you know how ancient Greeks came with them and the divisions of the octave and the division of tetrachords - research about mathematical means...
> 
> You don't need justifications for using any scale, chord, interval or whatever in music aside from how it sounds... I would skip that part about "emotional 5" and similar nonsense - what kind of instruments are you playing? In what kind of tuning?
> 
> Also, generalizations based on 12 ET don't translate well to all systems and even to older music (which as we know was in well-tempered, meantone or pythagorean systems).
> 
> Last - there are other minor scales that you didn't mention - the blues/Indian with 0125 or 0345 upper tetrachord, dorian mode or with some kind of gypsy/Indian sounding scales with a minor pentachord with a tritone instead of perfect fifth and whatever upper part is played (we can use all the tetrachords here to form new scales).
> 
> Forte's classification (based on the dihedral group) lists all of the different scales in 12ET and is studied in universities these days.
> 
> If you are looking for melodic minor pieces aside from classical music for justification in other contexts - see plenty of early jazz - think Gershwin was using it; harmonic minor - all over Balkan folk music (also North African music).


I play the piano in 12 tone equal temperament. But even with something such as a flute or a cello, I do believe that equal temperament is universally used these days, at least for orchestral instruments that I would be writing for. And in equal temperament, C melodic minor sounds like C major with a flat third. So much so that when I hear the dominant major chord, I expect to hear the tonic major, so when I hear it go to the tonic minor I'm like "Wait, it resolved to a more dissonant chord?" With something like A harmonic minor, I accept having the major dominant go to the minor tonic. But with something like C minor? That just sounds wrong having the V -> i progression in C minor. That is how come, if I do use harmonic minor or melodic minor within a key like C minor, I will only use it to transition to the tonic major.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Just go listen to the Bouree from BWV 996 (or the Jethro Tull version)


----------



## drmdjones

Great example BWV 1080! For those who may not know BWV 996, it is the first lute suite in Em. The melody in the first phrase goes B C# D# E and does not sound even remotely like E major.

To tie this to what I said before, the environment is dominant (a V chord, B major) therefore the seventh degree D must be raised to D#. Since the sixth degree C precedes the D# it too must be raised to C# to avoid the melodic augmented second between C and D#.

Thanks again for this example.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Apparently the OP knows better than Bach. What difference should the key make in determining whether to use a raised or natural 6th or 7th?

I would be careful of the word 'must'. Bach and other composers of the 18th and 19th centuries did use melodic augmented seconds - found this old thesis from my alma mater that provides a bunch of examples:Melodic use of Augmented Second in the 18th Century

there is even one in the BachChorale No. 7, 'Nun lob', mein' Seel', den Herren', mm. 19-22

Music theory is a post hoc distillation of guidelines for writing music in a particular style, not a hard cut set of commandments or some sort of natural law


----------



## drmdjones

Key makes no difference. Did I imply that it does?

"Must" was a poor choice on my part. I too have seen augmented seconds in Bach and others. I should have said "usually."

Thanks for clarifying this for the OP.


----------



## Bwv 1080

drmdjones said:


> Key makes no difference. Did I imply that it does?
> .


No, sorry - was referring to the OP which seemed to say you only use certain minor scale alterations in certain keys


----------



## drmdjones

It's all good. But I need 15 characters to post. That should do it


----------



## philoctetes

I like Bouree as an example since I play it on sax. Adds to my appreciation for Bach's genius.

This discussion is exactly the kind of stuff I wish I knew better. But I'm many years behind you guys in school.

I'll throw in a less familiar example, the Ray Davies song "End of the Season", another that I play on sax but often get tangled up in the major minor shifts...  I play by ear but my ear is not always reliable... I know it's not classical so apologies if not relevant...


----------



## Bwv 1080

To go further afield, Hindustani Raga Miyan Ki Malhar uses the notes of the ascending form of the melodic minor scale with an emphasis on the second and fifth scale degrees


----------



## Ostinato

caters said:


> But really, why learn the melodic minor at all? Why use it? To me, it sounds like it would be better off as Major than melodic minor. For example take A minor:
> 
> A B C D E F# G# A
> 
> That is the A melodic minor scale.


But the descending melodic minor scale is:

A G F E D C B A

Your point seems to be specifically about whether to use the dominant major chord in a minor key, rather than whether to use the melodic minor scale.

Like others in this thread, I do not see how it makes any difference what the letter-name of the key is. Take the final cadence of the 1st movement of Beethoven's _Pathétique_ Sonata - the C minor chord at the end sounds obviously right. It would sound very odd to use the natural minor for the penultimate chord, with B-flats instead of B-naturals.


----------



## millionrainbows

EdwardBast said:


> No apology needed! I admire your thoroughness and generosity. I was just calling attention to where the *pearls* were landing.


That about sums up your attitude.


----------



## 50iL

The modes pertaining to the melodic minor scale are incredibly useful for improvisation; I use them over my own compositions in said scenario a LOT. Ignoring or limiting them deriberately eliminates really resourceful tools.


----------



## millionrainbows

BabyGiraffe said:


> Also, generalizations based on 12 ET don't translate well to all systems and even to older music (which as we know was in well-tempered, meantone or pythagorean systems).


I think that's your problem, BabyGiraffe; you can't in the least "generalize" about intervals, such as our ubiquitous fifth. We all know that it is the most prominent harmonic besides the octave; it would be nice for discussion purposes if you would try.

So, if it isn't a perfect 3:2 in ET, it is still only 2 cents off, and if you can't handle that, you need to recognize for discussion purposes of Western music that the 12-ET scale is based around the fifth; it was generated by the Pythagoran method of stacking fifths. In other words, have you ever arrived at a compromise position on this, in order to discuss?

Also, I think you are too focussed on ratios themselves, as isolated intervals, without enough context or concentration on how these ratios were generated, and their relations in scales. You always seem to bring up minute differences in intervals, comparing them to ET, while ignoring all the other aspects: how was this scale generated? and especially, "why is this relevant in 12-ET?"

A fifth is a fifth, even if it's off by two cents. Most people can't hear a 2-cent difference; the limit is supposedly 4 cents, so many digital tuners have only 4-cent resolution (the older Korgs could do 2 cents). BTW, I can hear 2 cents, just barely, and I was tested on this. You should be able to hear what an intended fifth is, even if it is not a perfect ratio.


----------

