# The HIP thread



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I thought it would be cool to start a thread devoted to the discussion of the practice of performance of works as they would have been heard at the time of their compositions.

To start off, I've discovered that I don't like The English Concert as much as I used too. After discovering Europa Galante's Vivaldi and Musica Antiqua Köln's Bach they seem very faithful to the score, but dry and lacking emotion in the performance. I was listening to Simon Standage and The English Concert with Trevor Pinnock play Vivaldi's four seasons and they play all the notes and dynamics and they play them very clearly, but when I compare them to Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante I just seem to find The English Concert's version so....._boring._ It lacks the fire and the passion and the feelings that are made much more prominent in the Europa Galante version which I find much more exciting.

I also want to ask for people's opinions on Sir Roger Norrington's Beethoven symphony cycle. I've heard both good and bad things about it and I can't decide whether I'll like it or not.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I have a friend who hates Gardiner's cycle and swears by Norrington. He's kind of a HIP freak. Personally, I haven't been overwhelmed by it, though it has moments which I would say are more musical than Gardiner. Just my two cents.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Biondi is one of those violinists who gives breath and a beating heart to music. It's really unfair to compare what he does directly with the product of the fine scholar/technicians of HIP. The latter are Earth-bound; Biondi is not.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Manxfeeder said:


> I have a friend who hates Gardiner's cycle and swears by Norrington. He's kind of a HIP freak. Personally, I haven't been overwhelmed by it, though it has moments which I would say are more musical than Gardiner. Just my two cents.


It may be good to have both then?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> It may be good to have both then?


That would be the easiest choice; I have both. But I guess that depends on you. In my recent listening, I haven't found them to be hugely different from an interpretive level. I think Gardiner has much better sound, which makes the energy of the HIP-ness pop out (which is probably why I prefer Gardiner), but Norrington is less expensive and does allow the music to breathe when it needs to.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I thought it would be cool to start a thread devoted to the discussion of the practice of performance of works as they would have been heard at the time of their compositions.
> 
> To start off, I've discovered that I don't like The English Concert as much as I used too. After discovering Europa Galante's Vivaldi and Musica Antiqua Köln's Bach they seem very faithful to the score, but dry and lacking emotion in the performance. I was listening to Simon Standage and The English Concert with Trevor Pinnock play Vivaldi's four seasons and they play all the notes and dynamics and they play them very clearly, but when I compare them to Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante I just seem to find The English Concert's version so....._boring._ It lacks the fire and the passion and the feelings that are made much more prominent in the Europa Galante version which I find much more exciting.
> 
> I also want to ask for people's opinions on Sir Roger Norrington's Beethoven symphony cycle. I've heard both good and bad things about it and I can't decide whether I'll like it or not.


You got a good point here. Biondi does add a lot of flavor and energy to Vivaldi. I'll probably be getting all of Biondi's recordings in the near future.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> To start off, I've discovered that I don't like The English Concert as much as I used too. After discovering Europa Galante's Vivaldi and Musica Antiqua Köln's Bach they seem very faithful to the score, but dry and lacking emotion in the performance. I was listening to Simon Standage and The English Concert with Trevor Pinnock play Vivaldi's four seasons and they play all the notes and dynamics and they play them very clearly, but when I compare them to Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante I just seem to find The English Concert's version so....._boring._ It lacks the fire and the passion and the feelings that are made much more prominent in the Europa Galante version which I find much more exciting.


That's because it is pretty boring. Pinnock's English Concert is pretty dated as HIP goes these days and certainly no comparison to Europa Galante or MAK. There are a few things they're still first choice on (Corelli's op.6 IMO) but in most cases it's worth checking to see if there's something better than 'old reliable'.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I wouldn't call Pinnock boring. But I guess he has been outdone here. He still has the best boxsets for the money though. Biondi is expensive.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I also want to ask for people's opinions on Sir Roger Norrington's Beethoven symphony cycle. I've heard both good and bad things about it and I can't decide whether I'll like it or not.


I strongly encourage you to read the interview with Norrington on the subject of Beethoven in Bernard Sherman's superb book "Inside Early Music: Conversations With Performers". In fact even if you hate Norrington that book is a one of a kind collection of the highest regarded names in HIP discussing thier art, and also has extensive introductions, footnoting and annotated discographries, laying out the history of and changing attitudes to performances practices.

Its also becomes clear very quickly that "wars" and "clashes" over different approaches and over older vs newer styles is a game entirely cooked up by critics and academics. All the interviewees are fascinated by the work of their contempoaries, and have a deep love and respect for golden age etc recordings.









http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Early-...1346549901&sr=8-1&keywords=inside+early+music


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)




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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> harnoncourt


I'm not a huge fan, but he's alright. I think Masaaki Suzuki, Gardiner and Herreweghe have done better recordings of Bach's cantatas though.


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## SAKO (Jul 27, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> I wouldn't call Pinnock boring. But I guess he has been outdone here. He still has the best boxsets for the money though. Biondi is expensive.


I agree totally. You know what you're getting with Pinnock and the English Concert, and if it may no be the best in existence it's vastly superior to many others, and the box sets are without equal for the price. Harnoncourt also ticks most of the boxes without breaking the bank.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Okay Vivaldi lovers, here's the big question:

Biondi, Carmignola or Onofri?

As a side note, regarding the Beethoven Q: I'm afraid I haven't heard the Norrington, but what I've read about it suggests that it divides opinion so that you'll either love it or hate it. Essentially it's likely to be a gamble. I've heard some of the Gardiner (and seen them in the film 'Eroica' too), and was certainly impressed. I have the Immerseel set which I'm very happy with. I presume you're looking for a period instruments rather than a modern instrument HIP like the Vanska, and I'd imagine that Gardiner or Immerseel are going to be safer bets on this front.


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## SAKO (Jul 27, 2012)

Carmignola.

Sublime.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

hocket said:


> Okay Vivaldi lovers, here's the big question:
> 
> Biondi, Carmignola or Onofri?


I lean more towards Biondi.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Manxfeeder said:


> I lean more towards Biondi.


Me too.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Biondi rules.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I thought it would be cool to start a thread devoted to the discussion of the practice of performance of works as they would have been heard at the time of their compositions.
> 
> To start off, I've discovered that I don't like The English Concert as much as I used too. After discovering Europa Galante's Vivaldi and Musica Antiqua Köln's Bach they seem very faithful to the score, but dry and lacking emotion in the performance. I was listening to Simon Standage and The English Concert with Trevor Pinnock play Vivaldi's four seasons and they play all the notes and dynamics and they play them very clearly, but when I compare them to Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante I just seem to find The English Concert's version so....._boring._ It lacks the fire and the passion and the feelings that are made much more prominent in the Europa Galante version which I find much more exciting.
> 
> I also want to ask for people's opinions on Sir Roger Norrington's Beethoven symphony cycle. I've heard both good and bad things about it and I can't decide whether I'll like it or not.


You need to remember The English Concert's _Four Seasons_ recording was one of the very first released probably three decades ago? I don't know the exact date, and I can't be bothered to look it up on my copy. Since then, HIP has come a long way and the "newer generation" of experienced HIP groups have added new "zest" to it all, and your Biondi observation is indeed what it's all about; that is, while being aware of historical practices as far as we can, there is no harm in adding some interpretative flair within performance practice of the period. I don't think HIP means or should mean carbon copies of each band as far as how they should sound.

I enjoy Sir Roger Norrington's Beethoven cycle. It would not be the only HIP I would go for (I have several other cycles myself). He followed Beethoven's metronome markings, and overall would be one of the more "Classical" sounding HIP interpretations.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I enjoy Sir Roger Norrington's Beethoven cycle. It would not be the only HIP I would go for (I have several other cycles myself). He followed Beethoven's metronome markings, and overall would be one of the more "Classical" sounding HIP interpretations.


After all, Beethoven was the first composer to put in metronome markings, so he would have known exactly what he wanted when he wrote them down. In an article I read a while ago it stated that the performances of his own works that he thought were the best were the ones that stuck to his metronome markings.


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## oogabooha (Nov 22, 2011)

sorry if this sounds completely ignorant, but what exactly does HIP stand for? I know what it means, I just don't know the exact acronym.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

HIP = historically informed performance


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## tgtr0660 (Jan 29, 2010)

Jordi Savall usually obliterates competition. 

Most HIP orchestras and conductors are at least competent. 

On the other hand, Roger Norrington is HIP only if by that we mean the closest body structure to the actual source of his musical visions....


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> After all, Beethoven was the first composer to put in metronome markings, so he would have known exactly what he wanted when he wrote them down.


On the other hand, many contemporaries reported that Beethoven routinely employed rubato and that whatever metronome marking he indicated at the beginning of a passage was never performed as an absolute tempo throughout.

Even adding rubato would still make a HIP performance of a Beethoven piece noticeably faster than most current performances, so long as the initial metronome marking is the starting point, but I tend to doubt that Norrington's unflagging metronomic accuracy (which, for the record, I love) is "closer" to what Beethoven would have done (assuming Beethoven would have done it roughly the same way each time, which I also doubt) than some other HIP performance that is a little more flexible with tempo.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

What I love about Harnoncourt's performances is the following: Yes he has made great strides in HIP and is very careful to remain faithful to the original score, BUT he never lets it get in the way of music making - be as accurate as you like, but it still has to _work_ as a piece of music. I feel he's got the balance just right.

He recently gave an interview stating that this was his approach. Sorry I cant be more specific.


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

[HR][/HR]


hocket said:


> Okay Vivaldi lovers, here's the big question:
> 
> Biondi, Carmignola or Onofri?


I'll say all three! I'm collecting all Vivaldi recordings by all three of them, so yeah. Though, Biondi's Op3 is probably my favorite Vivaldi CD-set.

I love HIP. It is amazing. It got me to appreciate Vivaldi infinitely more than I did before, and gave me a much better appreciation of Bach too (I think the Brandenburg Concerti started my transition towards HIP - since then, I've had to restart my Bach collection entirely).

Nowadays, HIP is the only way for me to listen to Baroque now - I've been spoiled.

It's given me a better appreciation of the Classical period too, now, though I'm just beginning to catch on there.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

New HIP topic:

Mozart: René Jacobs or John Eliot Gardiner?


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## tgtr0660 (Jan 29, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> New HIP topic:
> 
> Mozart: René Jacobs or John Eliot Gardiner?


Try Rene Jacobs' Die Zauberflote, and the answer will appear as it is m


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

tgtr0660 said:


> Try Rene Jacobs' Die Zauberflote, and the answer will appear as it is m


It's the best version I've heard, but people have recommended John Eliot Gardiner's one to me also.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> New HIP topic:
> 
> Mozart: René Jacobs or John Eliot Gardiner?


Answer: William Christie

No, more seriously, there are a lot of excellent groups performing 'Early Music', many specializing in a specific area but still quite a few who range far and wide like Jacobs and Gardiner, and most of them focus on vocal music as they do. Both Jacobs and Gardiner are excellent but neither would be my favourite. I'm not sure I have one but Herreweghe, Christie, and Savall (who's come to do a lot of vocal music too) would certainly be worthy contenders. Alessandrini's Concerto Italiano too. Perhaps not quite so widely ranging there are many groups such as Lesne's Il Seminario Musicale, Junghanel's Cantus Colln, or Roland Wilson's Capella Ducale that have extensive catalogues of very high quality.


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

For HIP Mozart, what about his symphonies?

The one with Minkowski and Les Musiciens Du Louvre (40/41) is amazing, but I've still working on the other symphonies. I have the Pinnock set, but I didn't warm up to it that much. I just got the Hogwood one recently, and I like what I've heard but can't judge it too much yet, but it hasn't blown my mind away either.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I've been wondering what people think of Jacobs' version of his last four symphonies actually.


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## campy (Aug 16, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I've been wondering what people think of Jacobs' version of his last four symphonies actually.


I've heard them once, and I enjoyed them very much.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I've been wondering what people think of Jacobs' version of his last four symphonies actually.


Well, I'm hardly a Mozartian specialist but they do have the distinct advantage of actually sounding like Mozart.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I'm listening to René Jacobs' version of _Don Giovanni._ I am yet to hear a more thrilling opening scene.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

I haven't heard Jacobs' _Don Giovanni_. I liked his reading of _Idomeneo_ but didn't like his version of _Così fan tutte_. He seemed to make _Così_ sound too baroque, I really like baroque opera but I didn't think it suited Mozart or that particular opera. It turned a comedy into a much more formal presentation.

I suppose that sums up HIP to me, it can work very well in some circumstances and not others. The magic of "this is how Mozart would have heard it" can often take precedence over the music.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

For me, instrument use tends to be important. There are certain things that occur when older instruments are played, certain balance issues or colors that the composer desired, and those are lost when modern instruments are substituted. For instance 19th and early 20th Century works that utilize various obscure members of various wind instrument families, like trumpets and clarinets in keys other than B-flat, in order to get the specific color. I also tend to prefer things like Bach on harpsichord as opposed to piano, because I find the timbre suits the drama much better. However, there are some works that I think benefit from newer ways of playing or instruments used, like the keyboard music of Couperin, which I find sounds better on the piano, or Classical piano music, which I tend to think sounds best on modern grand pianos, rather than the old pianoforte. I think its best to have a variety of interpretations of older pieces, because the scores are quite variable and open to interpretation as it is.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I haven't heard Jacobs' Don Giovanni. I liked his reading of Idomeneo but didn't like his version of Così fan tutte. He seemed to make Così sound too baroque, I really like baroque opera but I didn't think it suited Mozart or that particular opera.

That's interesting. Most of the opera aficionados that I know fell that Jacob's _Cosi fan tutte_ is the best of his Mozart operas... a great many preferring his recording over any other.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

I like HIP, and I think it is very important to keep this tradition going. Here are my preferences:

I have never heard Don Giovanni under the direction by Jacobs. This and other threads has made me curious, so I will give it a try. My fav Don is by Gardiner. I have written more about Mozart opera in another thread: http://www.talkclassical.com/20506-best-version-marriage-figaro.html#post353258

I have Mozart symphonies by English Concert, it's OK. But I prefer Gardiner.

For the Requiem I also have Gardiner... (Yes I may be biased) Some years ago I got the requiem by Harnoncourt on SACD. It's a very different reading than Gardiner. But I keep playing the Gardiner.

So I like HIP when it comes to Mozart opera and orchestral music. But for concerts and solo I prefer modern instruments.

I love Bach on the piano, a modern piano. Not hip at all  Perahia/Schiff/MacGregor/Hewitt are my favs.

In general I prefer the modern piano, but I have some hip piano recordings that are very interesting. For example Chopin on an Erard piano. This CD:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

^ Chopin on an 1800s grand piano is marvellous! My pianist friend is an expert on different types of pianos and HIP pianos etc. and showed me what he called the best performance of Chopin's second piano concerto. It was Dang Thai Son and the Orchestra of the 18th Century conducted by Franz Brüggen. I loved the performance and the idea of HIP Chopin intrigued me and I found this box set. It's a bit pricey but it looks like its worth it.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I'm listening to René Jacobs' version of _Don Giovanni._ I am yet to hear a more thrilling opening scene.


If you like Don Giovanni, check this performance. I'm interested what you think of it.

http://www.talkclassical.com/12247-youtube-thread-post334938.html?highlight=#post334938


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Dongiovanni said:


> If you like Don Giovanni, check this performance. I'm interested what you think of it.
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/12247-youtube-thread-post334938.html?highlight=#post334938


I've seen that actually and I liked it very much, but the Jacobs' version I think is a bit more dramatic which is what I prefer for Don Giovanni.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I've seen that actually and I liked it very much, but the Jacobs' version I think is a bit more dramatic which is what I prefer for Don Giovanni.


Ok, so I orderd the Jacobs on CD !

I noticed there is also a DVD version... well lets wait for the CD first.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ^ Chopin on an 1800s grand piano is marvellous! My pianist friend is an expert on different types of pianos and HIP pianos etc. and showed me what he called the best performance of Chopin's second piano concerto. It was Dang Thai Son and the Orchestra of the 18th Century conducted by Franz Brüggen. I loved the performance and the idea of HIP Chopin intrigued me and I found this box set. It's a bit pricey but it looks like its worth it.


It was a complaint of mine for a long time that no-one had recorded Chopin on a Pleyel, even though it was common knowledge that this was his keyboard of choice. It was a relief when Brillian Classics finally released Cor de Groot's Pleyel recordings.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

I got the Jacobs Don Giovanni ! I have listened to it several times now. My opion:

Exceptionally good

The sound is also fantastic. I should write a full review, but I don't have so much time. In short: I like the free singing, especially in the recitatives, the tempi are excactly my cup of tea, the singing is great.

O, and the scream by the Don in the final scene ! It is shocking ! Never heard it doen this way.

It rivals my favourite by Gardiner. But I stil prefer Gilfrey singing the Don.

I ordered Jacobs' Figaro as well !


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

NEWSFLASH!!! René Jacobs' Mozart's _La Finta Giardiniera_ is coming out soon!


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> NEWSFLASH!!! René Jacobs' Mozart's _La Finta Giardiniera_ is coming out soon!


I have already ordered it.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I have already ordered it.


I will order it after I pay my phone bill and go busking _again._


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