# JC or CPE?



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It sometimes seems like many feel JC Bach is the greatest Bach son but I can't think of any of his pieces that I enjoy as much as many pieces by CPE. Have I missed out on the really good JC works? And isn't CPE the greater of the two?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I would have thought that CPE is the higher regarded of the two - he is certainly my choice.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I enjoy every note from this concerto


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

not that familiar with any of them, but concerning JC, his requiem is a masterpiece


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Jacck said:


> not that familiar with any of them, but concerning JC,* his requiem is a masterpiece*


a masterpiece? uh, sorry - no


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I prefer CPE, considering his music more distinctive.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I understand that CPE was at the cutting edge of music and that many of his works are daring and innovative - but I just like the music of JC Bach better overall.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

stomanek said:


> I understand that CPE was at the cutting edge of music and that many of his works are daring and innovative - but I just like the music of JC Bach better overall.


What are some of your favorite works by JC?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

WildThing said:


> What are some of your favorite works by JC?


Ha you have got me there. I have been on spotify listening to some of his piano concertos - wind concertos, symphonies and I think they are quite tuneful well crafted works. Not to say that CPE is not - but on balance if I want a pleasant hour's listening and a change from the big boys I would be more likely to pick out JC than CPE.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

I'm figuring you left out PDQ because he's obviously the best of Johann Sebastian's offspring. So settling for the two choices given, I'd pick CPE for his Flute and Cello Concertos.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Far be it from me to place one over the other -- but I listen to CPE quite a bit, JC seldom.

Thinking about CPE, I think he contributed a certain strain of perversity to the classical period -- those occasional sudden stops and key changes for instance, sometimes a purposeful awkwardness -- that keep it from being soporific.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Just listened to the CPE flute concerto in d minor. Nice 2nd mvt. Lots of characteristic sturm and drang in the 3rd mvt.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Far be it from me to place one over the other -- but I listen to CPE quite a bit, JC seldom.
> 
> Thinking about CPE, I think he contributed a certain strain of perversity to the classical period -- those occasional sudden stops and key changes for instance, sometimes a purposeful awkwardness -- that keep it from being soporific.


JC was a fine composer of lovely, graceful music, and a clear influence on Mozart. But I prefer CPE for his adventurousness and sense of humor, his savory mixture of Baroque, Classical and "holy cow, what was that?" He was well-trained by papa in the old techniques, took full advantage of the changing taste of the times to become something of a "bad boy," and had the talent to bring it off. I suspect he'd have been interesting to know.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> I'm figuring you left out PDQ because he's obviously the best of Johann Sebastian's offspring. So settling for the two choices given, I'd pick CPE for his Flute and Cello Concertos.


Not to mention big brother W. F. Bach!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

For me CPE, then WF, then I lose interest.

If one pronounced the name Bach without qualification in the late 18thc on the continent of Europe, it was assumed you meant CPE. Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven all praised him as of central importance to them and to music in general. Mozart called him "the father of us all." He was arguably the most important master of the symphony, sonata and concerto in his generation.

Here is one enduring masterpiece in each of these genres:

Concerto in D minor, Wq 23 (first movement)






Symphony in D major, Wq 183/1






Sonata in E major, Wq 48/3






Couldn't resist another concerto, this one performed on tangent piano. Sorry, but there are at least fifteen keyboard concertos by CPE that deserve attention and more performances.

Concerto in E major, Wq 14:


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## DBLee (Jan 8, 2018)

Art Rock said:


> I would have thought that CPE is the higher regarded of the two - he is certainly my choice.


I would generally echo this, although I haven't heard enough J.C. Bach in recent years or retained enough in my memory to rate him above or below C.P.E. I would say that I hear C.P.E. on the radio at least a couple of times a week in addition to my CDs.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

I've got stuff by JCF and WF in my collection that is just as good as anything by CPE or JC.

Any of them could knock it out of the park if they wanted to but in terms of sheer quantity of great music I'd pick CPE.


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## Frank Freaking Sinatra (Dec 6, 2018)

You can't tell the Bachs apart without a scorecard -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family

CPE for me - inventive, unpredictable, wide emotional range, and use of harmonic color.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

I recently listened to a recording of CPE's 'Prussian' piano sonatas and found them totally inscrutable. Weirder than anything from the 20th century. Burney gave up Bach for Haydn when the latter started writing and I agree with him...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Of Emanuel Bach's clavier works I have only a few, yet they must be not only a real delight to every true artist, but also serve him for study purposes; and it is for me a great pleasure to play works that I have never seen, or seldom see, for real art lovers." (Beethoven on July 26, 1809, to Gottfried Hartel the publisher, of Leipzig)


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> For me CPE, then WF, then I lose interest.
> 
> If one pronounced the name Bach without qualification in the late 18thc on the continent of Europe, it was assumed you meant CPE. Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven all praised him as of central importance to them and to music in general. Mozart called him "the father of us all." He was arguably the most important master of the symphony, sonata and concerto in his generation.
> 
> ...


Listening to these interesting works it seems to me that only CPEs lack of inspired melodic invention keeps him from being better known.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

stomanek said:


> Listening to these interesting works it seems to me that only CPEs lack of inspired melodic invention keeps him from being better known.


I'm not surprised to hear you say that, given our previous discussions of melody in the music of Beethoven.  The themes beginning the sonata and the symphony linked above anticipate, and are likely among the models for, the kind of melody Beethoven would write 30 to 50 years later. Like the opening theme of the _Eroica_, they contain strong internal contrasts and unfold over long spans. If one doesn't hear the first 40 odd measure of the _Eroica_ as a single theme, one will likely misapprehend these themes by Bach in the same way. So, to get us on the same page about what constitutes the themes of these works: In the recordings above, the theme of the Sonata in E takes a little over 30 seconds to unfold, that of the symphony about 40 seconds, and that of the concerto about 70 seconds. If you aren't hearing these spans as unified melodies, you are not properly attuned to the melodic style at work here.

Creating an entirely new kind of melody, as Bach did in these and others work, I would argue is inspired. So inspired that no one but Beethoven fully understood what he was about or extended his thinking until decades later.



Gallus said:


> I recently listened to a recording of CPE's 'Prussian' piano sonatas and found them totally inscrutable. Weirder than anything from the 20th century. Burney gave up Bach for Haydn when the latter started writing and I agree with him...


The set is one of the most important bodies of work in the sonata genre, along with the Württemberg set (Wq 49), of the mid-18th century. Sheer genius. They were written in 1742-44!


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> I'm not surprised to hear you say that, given our previous discussions of melody in the music of Beethoven.  The themes beginning the sonata and the symphony linked above anticipate, and are likely among the models for, the kind of melody Beethoven would write 30 to 50 years later. Like the opening theme of the _Eroica_, they contain strong internal contrasts and unfold over long spans. If one doesn't hear the first 40 odd measure of the _Eroica_ as a single theme, one will likely misapprehend these themes by Bach in the same way. So, to get us on the same page about what constitutes the themes of these works: In the recordings above, the theme of the Sonata in E takes a little over 30 seconds to unfold, that of the symphony about 40 seconds, and that of the concerto about 70 seconds. If you aren't hearing these spans as unified melodies, you are not properly attuned to the melodic style at work here.
> 
> Creating an entirely new kind of melody, as Bach did in these and others work, I would argue is inspired. So inspired that no one but Beethoven fully understood what he was about or extended his thinking until decades later.
> 
> The set is one of the most important bodies of work in the sonata genre, along with the Württemberg set (Wq 49), of the mid-18th century. Sheer genius. They were written in 1742-44!


I think you must be thinking of someone else. I have no issues with recognising Beethoven melodic line in the eroica.

Coming to the symphony though - I can see that it all hangs together on the 6 note motif that follows a brief intro and which appears in various forms throughout . what I dont get is the progression and musical rationale of all the other material. Perhaps because I have become too used to listening to Mozart, Beethoven, where to me - everything is pretty much clear. I am not saying the CPE sy lacks these things - just that its not obvious to me.
I liked the d minor concerto mvt most of the 3 pieces above. where is the rest of it?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

stomanek said:


> I think you must be thinking of someone else. I have no issues with recognising Beethoven melodic line in the eroica.
> 
> Coming to the symphony though - I can see that it all hangs together on the 6 note motif that follows a brief intro and which appears in various forms throughout . what I dont get is the progression and musical rationale of all the other material. Perhaps because I have become too used to listening to Mozart, Beethoven, where to me - everything is pretty much clear. I am not saying the CPE sy lacks these things - just that its not obvious to me.
> I liked the d minor concerto mvt most of the 3 pieces above. where is the rest of it?


Sorry about that memory lapse!

I hear a similar seven note motive, played in bare octaves by the strings in the finale, as a reference to the 6 note motive you picked out in the first movement of the symphony. But I'm not sure that's intentional (or even valid).

I think they only posted one movement of that performance of the concerto on youtube. The CD of the Leonhardt performance has his dad's D minor concerto on the other side. Nice pairing. But Wq 23 is among the most "popular" of his fifty odd concertos, and there are a number of recordings. I was trying to avoid modern piano versions. I'd like to hear it on tangent piano.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm glad to hear that nearly everyone sides with CPE! I think he is a pretty wonderful composer - I love the keyboard concertos especially (BIS have nearly 20 CDs of them and there is much variety and invention among them) and the Magnificat is also very rewarding - while JC is merely pleasant ... or at least there have not been any substantial recommendations. Thanks to all.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm glad to hear that nearly everyone sides with CPE! I think he is a pretty wonderful composer - I love the keyboard concertos especially (BIS have nearly 20 CDs of them and there is much variety and invention among them) and the Magnificat is also very rewarding - while JC is merely pleasant ... or at least there have not been any substantial recommendations. Thanks to all.


I think JC deserves more credit than he has had. I can understand entirely why people would go with CPE - his music sounds bold for the times and why listen to him when you could listen to any one of a number of other composers who sound similar. I think as a classical era composer though he's a bit better than the best of the rest. I probably tend towards JC because Mozart learned a lot from him in his early years though Mozart clearly learned from CPE. The early G minor sy (k185) pops out of nowhere completely out of music character for Mozart and I think Haydn and probably CPE works must have triggered something in him.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

It looks like CPE is in the lead, but I've always found JC's _Sinfonia for Double Orchestra in E-Flat Major, Op. 18_ sparkling, entertaining and delightful. Mozart learned much from his venerated mentor. I think JC greatly departed in his Classicism from his Baroque father... He showed an admirable independence of mind. 






Nevertheless, there's such a wonderful element of intensity and surprise in the CPE Berlin Symphonies I've heard. He's perhaps a little more extrovert, harmonically adventurous, and theatrical in a good way.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I' ve only got very little JC & can't really say much about him, but hold CPE in high regard & have a good deal of CDs and LPs. A lot of originality, freshness and variation in his works. 

As regards the piano works, Markovina's box is probably only for specialists, due to its comprehensiveness and the repetition in the music; the Pletnev DG CD is a must though, IMHO. But one day I'll even be getting the Spanyi complete BIS set of keyboard concertos, when it's finished ...


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I have heard quite a bit more of CPE than JC but what I have heard of JC I have enjoyed. CPE music tends to be very restive and searching, and some of his works are very dramatic and exciting. JC had more of a melodic gift, and their styles are very different


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

*The forgotten Johann Christoph!*

Actually J.C. Bach could also refer to another J.S. Bach son: Johann Christoph Bach 1732-1795.

I can't recall ever having heard any music by Johann Christoph Bach or for that matter by W.F. Bach.

C.P.E. Bach vs. Johann Christian Bach? Well, for me I just like the galant style that Johann Christian represents much better than the style C.P.E. represents. I can't say who is the greatest composer of the two - it's more a preference for a certain pre-mozartian style vs. CPE's so-called "Empfindsamkeit".

But I'm afraid I agree with what seems to be the consensus on this thread - I've never heard a piece by any of the Bach sons that can compare with the boatload of masterpieces by their father JS Bach. Pleasant music? Yes, but not masterpieces...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Johann Christoph Bach" usually refers to an older relative of JS Bach by that name. JS Bach's son is more often referred to as "Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach" or simply "JCF Bach." His works seem seldom heard but they do pop now and then.

Wiki notes that a good part of his then-surviving works were destroyed in a WWII bombing.


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