# Hearing damage, is it a concern for you?



## clavichorder

Do you ever worry that you expose your ears to too much volume? How loud is too loud on your iPod/headphones? Do you make a point of listening only for a certain amount of time a day or at a time? Where are you usually on the spectrum of being indifferent to this matter-to in control-to paranoid?

In my family, there is a genetic tendency for hearing loss. I don't know if its because I have a cold or not, but my ears feel weirdly sensitive today, and I listen to a lot of music on headphones(noise cancellation, though the feature isn't working 100%). I don't know what I'd do without my hearing. I refuse to where ear buds anymore. My piano is in need of regulation and it has very hard hammers, it blasts me away if I'm not careful...


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## Ukko

Check my sig. Your family and my family have that same genetic tendency. I have had tinnitus for about a quarter-century. Not in my case because of too-loud music, but because of jet engines and gunfire - and inadequate protection. The high frequency 'singing' is always there.

If you ****** up your hearing and could have avoided doing so, it's on you; whining about it won't fly.

[edit - The obscenity censor this software uses is really 'nice']


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## Sid James

I also have sensitive hearing so I tend not to use headphones (hate earbuds to the max). At home I listen to music on speakers only. I know that I do miss some of the nuances in that way but I'm not too obsessed about that.

I think this younger generation will tend to have heaps of problems with hearing loss as they get older. Just go into a pub or nightclub on a friday or saturday night & you'll find out why. Does the music have to be played THAT loud? At least with most classical you don't get that ultra high level of continuously blasting volume. With more contemporary classical it can be quite high frequency - eg. microtonal - & there can also be electronic amplification with speakers involved. But most of you here probably don't go to live gigs of that stuff anyway, you'd mostly be into purely acoustic music.

The loudest classical things I've experienced live are Carl Orff's _Carmina Burana _& Iannis Xenakis' _Pleiades _for mixed percussion. My ears were ringing for a couple of days after the Xenakis in particular. But I think rock concerts would probably be worse? I don't know because I haven't been to a rock concert, I've never been attracted to rock in the live format.

I was on the bus going to work one day and this young Asian guy sitting near me had the last movement of Beethoven's _Choral_ symphony blaring through his earphones. It was so loud that I was treated to an impromptu performance of that piece that morning, I heard it quite clearly, even above the traffic noise, etc. (so did the other passengers nearby, whether they liked it or not!). My thought after that was that this guy was damaging his ears at least temporarily, & if he keeps at doing this, he's going to do permanent damage.

So I basically think it's a good idea not to have the volume up that loud and to use earplugs if you're going to a rock concert, for example...


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## Almaviva

Yes, of course I worry. Yes, I love to listen to my music very loud, and yes, I think it's been affecting my hearing. If you expose yourself repeatedly to volumes above 85 dB, your hearing will eventually be impaired, no doubt about it. The closer the source (ear buds, earphones) the worse the damage.


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## clavichorder

Edit, nevermind.


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## Almaviva

By the way, 85 dB is about the sound level of a busy street from a distance of 10 m.
Normal conversation is around 60, and a sledgehammer is around 100.


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## clavichorder

Almaviva said:


> By the way, 85 dB is about the sound level of a busy street from a distance of 10 m.
> Normal conversation is around 60, and a sledgehammer is around 100.


There's no avoiding that in the city...

Another thing I've suffered from are the up close barks of a very loud and excitable dog.


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## Guest

I developed tinnitus as a result of playing in loud bands many years ago I also had eye strain caused through very poor lighting in the same bands, now the tinnitus is so much better but the eyes went from bad to worse, Throw away the cans and in ear phones or turn the volume right down or better still get a good Hi Fi set up.


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## Couchie

I believe classical music is not actually that bad because of the highly variable dynamics, vs. pop/rock music which is typically mastered to be at a constant, maxed-out dynamics level.

That said, often my ears do ring after a loud movement at the level I listen.


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## Guest

Couchie said:


> I believe classical music is not actually that bad because of the highly variable dynamics, vs. pop/rock music which is typically mastered to be at a constant, maxed-out dynamics level.
> 
> That said, often my ears do ring after a loud movement at the level I listen.


Depends where you are sitting in the Orchestra.


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## graaf

I've already damaged my ears. Nothing too bad (I hope), but I have pain in my ears whenever someone talks "louder than usual" - I'd asked others if they had any pain in their ears at the same time, to be sure if I'm the only one.

I managed to damage my ears simply by trying to set the headphones volume higher than sounds around me - in order to hear the music at all. That was enough to cause some damage. I rarely use headphones now (only when out of other options), but when I do, it has to be in quiet environment.


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## Rasa

Use them


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## Polednice

One of my ears suffered for 6 months because it was exposed to an MRI machine without sufficient protection, but otherwise my hearing is (I think) perfect.

It's not something I generally worry about because I just make sure that I have my music at whatever is an appropriate volume for me to hear it in my surroundings; I'm not a fan of putting it on full because I find it uncomfortable. Classical music in general is also _extremely_ docile compared to how loud other genres are on a portable player.


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## Manxfeeder

I'm very concerned with hearing damage. 

I remember when I was 19, I went to a Tower of Power concert, and it was so loud, I had 50% hearing loss for a day afterward. That scared me, and I never did that again. 

I try to keep the volume down when I'm listening, but I've noticed as I get older I turn the volume up slightly more than I used to. I know the loss of higher frequencies is natural with aging, and some things can't be avoided, but I hope I'm not contributing more than I need to. 

I've wondered if it would make a difference to have one day a week where I don't listen to anything unnecessarily. Do ears need rest?


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## kv466

Not only is it a concern for me but it is already beginning to be a reality. I've played at full drum set level with amplifier for more than 2/3's my life...also, I have a terrible habit of listening to my amp, when I'm getting lost in the mix, only with my left ear. Don't know why, I've tried to address this but when playing live it is always the case. Then there's the snare drum and hi hats when i'm drumming and those are both closer to my left ear as well as I am right handed.

Anyway, on more than several occasions I have noticed that I hear better with my left ear now although I still enjoy music just the same and can hear very well; even better than my dogs, it seems, at times. Still, it is something that will progress.

I've tried earplugs and it just muffles up the sound and I simply can not use them to play live and definitely not to record.


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## Aramis

I was concerned that I may be listening to music too loud but then I started attending live classical music concerts and I understood that I almost never got music in home as loud as it gets on live performance. Why worry then? I trust that philharmonic concerts are not especially unhealthly and shouldn't seriously damage my ears.


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## Ukko

Aramis said:


> I was concerned that I may be listening to music too loud but then I started attending live classical music concerts and I understood that I almost never got music in home as loud as it gets on live performance. Why worry then? I trust that philharmonic concerts are not especially unhealthly and shouldn't seriously damage my ears.


Misguided trust. The state of your hearing is not the concertizers' concern.


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## kv466

Hilltroll72 said:


> Misguided trust. The state of your hearing is not the concertizers' concern.


This is true! I once attended a Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto no. 1 in Miami Beach and I was second row just left of the piano...when the section came that the piano is silent and it is only a orchestra starting a slow and steady build up ...anyway, this is one of the loudest things I've ever heard and had me trembling and shaking in my seat...almost gasping at how intense and powerful it all was; then, John Browning eased the piano into the sweetest of dynamics.

What I'm trying to say is,...those two minutes or so were louder than any Metallica concert I've ever attended!

Oh, wow...I found it...the part I'm talking about is from the start to about 1:32.






Second row pit in front of the piano,...this can be VERY loud.


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## clavichorder

I should measure how loud in decibels my dog's bark is. You've never heard such a piercing and ear rattling bark.


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## presto

Sid James said:


> I think this younger generation will tend to have heaps of problems with hearing loss as they get older. Just go into a pub or nightclub on a friday or saturday night & you'll find out why. Does the music have to be played THAT loud? At least with most classical you don't get that ultra high level of continuously blasting volume.


With classical music the climaxes are loud but not as loud as you think as they usually build up from quieter passages which give's them their effect. With pop concerts and night clubs it's sustained high volume that's far more damaging.
I'm surprised there isn't a law dictating a maximum decibel level allowed in theses places, I'm sure it got to a danger point in some of these places.


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## Sid James

kv466 said:


> ...also, I have a terrible habit of listening to my amp, when I'm getting lost in the mix, only with my left ear. Don't know why, I've tried to address this but when playing live it is always the case. Then there's the snare drum and hi hats when i'm drumming and those are both closer to my left ear as well as I am right handed...
> I've tried earplugs and it just muffles up the sound and I simply can not use them to play live and definitely not to record.


Have you heard of musician's earplugs. A number of musicians I know wear them, as Andante suggested, when you're in the middle of a huge orchestra playing Mahler, etc. (or even a normal orchestra), they come in handy. They block out the higher damaging frequencies but still allow you to hear what you need to. To get them, you need to go to an audiologist, they make a mould of your ear canal and they are custom made to fit your ears. They are expensive but they last like around 5 years or something before you need a new pair. I think this is a good idea to check out if you don't know it already. The foam earplugs are no good for musicians, as they block out the things you need to hear to play properly, etc...



presto said:


> ...I'm surprised there isn't a law dictating a maximum decibel level allowed in theses places, I'm sure it got to a danger point in some of these places.


I have read articles discussing that, but I don't know if anything has been done in terms of legislation or in parliament. Maybe there are guidelines or rules, etc. but maybe they aren't being followed by the industry, maybe they're difficult to enforce or there's the old bugbear of "self-regulation" which a lot of the times means no regulation, or almost none...


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## Vaneyes

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm very concerned with hearing damage.
> 
> I remember when I was 19, I went to a Tower of Power concert, and it was so loud, I had 50% hearing loss for a day afterward. That scared me, and I never did that again.
> 
> I try to keep the volume down when I'm listening, but I've noticed as I get older I turn the volume up slightly more than I used to. I know the loss of higher frequencies is natural with aging, and some things can't be avoided, but I hope I'm not contributing more than I need to.
> 
> I've wondered if it would make a difference to have one day a week where I don't listen to anything unnecessarily. Do ears need rest?


The loudest concert I attended was Robert Palmer. Unbearable, and we were in the balcony. Last time for me. It could've had more effect on him. He croaked at 54.

Likewise, when I have control over the volume, I listen within reason.

I now avoid loudness with a passion. I will hold my hands over my ears until it ends, and/or exit the area quickly.

People talking overly loud bugs me, and I often tell them so. I could go on.


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## Ravellian

I am concerned about it, which is why I'm very careful. I've gotten used to listening to music at a low to moderate volume - I almost never turn it up too loud. I also try to avoid very loud noises, in general.


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## Guest

I attended a lot of loud concerts in my youth--Jimi Hendrix, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Rainbow, etc. Rainbow was so loud that I was dizzy for a bit (had front row seats in front of their massive PA system!) Hendrix was a close second--my ears rang for several days! Decibel for decibel, though, his rendition of "The Star-Spangled Banner" was the most brutal with all of the feedback. Those concerts, along with playing in band of my own--but with earplugs, have left me with tinnitus.


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## Philip

sometimes i can't help myself from putting the volume at the highest level i can tolerate... which is normally just below the threshold of audible distortion or ear pain. nevertheless, usually the louder the better, probably because that's how they mix it in the studio, and listening to music at its intended volume is very often most revealing, much like tasting a good beer at the right temperature.


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## science

I have changed the way I listen to music because I worry about it. No more trying to overpower outside noise; if I'm not in a good environment for listening (i.e. home) then I just don't listen. No more headphones or earphones on the subway or whatever.


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## Guest

kv466 said:


> This is true! I once attended a Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto no. 1 in Miami Beach and I was second row just left of the piano...when the section came that the piano is silent and it is only a orchestra starting a slow and steady build up ...anyway, this is one of the loudest things I've ever heard and had me trembling and shaking in my seat
> 
> .


I had a similar experience in the front row at a concert by Christ Collage Cambridge the Sopranos were about 5 metres away and when they let rip it was numbing but I would happily go through it again such wonderful singing


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## presto

Sid James said:


> I have read articles discussing that, but I don't know if anything has been done in terms of legislation or in parliament. Maybe there are guidelines or rules, etc. but maybe they aren't being followed by the industry, maybe they're difficult to enforce or there's the old bugbear of "self-regulation" which a lot of the times means no regulation, or almost none...


I guess it will all change when in 30 years time people start suing companies for hearing damage!


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## Guest

You can't regulate against peoples stupidity


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## clavichorder

Andante said:


> stupidity


Substitute careless/bad habits for stupidity and we'll be in agreement.


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## Couchie

If you ears aren't ringing at the end of _Götterdämmerung_, you're doing it wrong.


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## KaerbEmEvig

I have a very mild case of tinnitus, which I think is caused by improper shape of the neck section of my spine (have had too many X-rays done this year - CT scan in April and now broken collar bone - it'll have to wait). I use over-the-ear headphones (or speakers, when I'm home alone) and make sure the volume isn't too high - if I can make out what the person next to me is saying without any problems, it's all good.

When I am outdoors I set the volume at about 20-30% (which is somewhat less than the threshold I've set for myself) and whenever I can't hear a thing - I turn the music off (and usually leave the headphones on my ears to cancel the outside noise a bit) instead of increasing the music volume.


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## jdavid

Oh yes, it is a real concern. I have a problem with pressure-equalization in both ears - I've been to an ENT specialist and had my hearing checked and all was 'normal'. He said I might want to have a 'procedure' done to check for crystallization somewhere behind the eardrum, and I'm still dragging my feet on that. I think they make an incision in the drumMM OUCH! I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd give up sight before hearing. A seeing eye dog can provide a great deal of cuddly comfort while you're listening to Schubert, but the cuddle would not be the same w/o Franz, and I'm not Beethoven by an alternate universe.

edit: and on the question of where am I on the scale with 0 = indifferent, 5 = in control, and 10 = paranoid, I guess I'd say I'm a definite 5.5 and holding.



clavichorder said:


> Do you ever worry that you expose your ears to too much volume? How loud is too loud on your iPod/headphones? Do you make a point of listening only for a certain amount of time a day or at a time? Where are you usually on the spectrum of being indifferent to this matter-to in control-to paranoid?


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## Huilunsoittaja

When I play piccolo especially in a closed room, or in a scenario where I'm playing for a very long time, I use ear plugs. I'm debating with myself whether or not it's necessary in concert because that's a one-time thing where I really need to listen for tone, pitch, etc. But in general, piccolos are extremely damaging to hearing, and I really don't want to risk hurting my ears for its sake.


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## eorrific

Absolutely. I'm doubly concerned because I'm a hypochondriac (occasional ear infections and very slight ringing at night as I go to sleep = is this IRREVERSIBLE PROGRESSIVE DEAFNESS?!?!) and believe that my quality of life would be diminished without music.
I very rarely turn up the volume above 50% (when listening to iPods) and generally avoid going to loud public events, and even sometimes berate family members and acquaintances who shout or speak too loudly.

Then of course there's nothing better than Mahler (or Wagner or Shostakovich) cranked up on speakers.


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## Guest

eorrific said:


> Absolutely. I very rarely turn up the volume above 50% (when listening to iPods)


I think you may 50% is a tad tooooo loud


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## SixFootScowl

I listen most of my free time on earbud. That is right one earbud, in my left ear. I really don't see why one needs to have sound in both ears all the time. It's nice but not practical. So if I do damage my hearing it will be only one ear. There is a company that sells a one bud set in various designs including with ear clip that has a stereo plug and electronics in the plug that combine the channels into a mono signal to the single earbud so you don't miss anything (scansound.com if anyone is interested).


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## SixFootScowl

Let me add that my left ear already has high frequency hearing loss. If I put the ear bud in the right ear it sounds better but I won't do it. Ha, I have my earbud turned up all the way most of the time but it is not all that loud and barely exceeds road noise if I am in a car. When I am driving by myself of course I am spinning discs and getting stereo, usually have the balance biased to the left to help preserve right ear and never turn it past 50%. I can hear my exhaust nicely above the stereo because I have a Dynomax Super Turbo muffler with a turnout in front of the rear wheel--it sounds great and does not distract from my music listening.


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## scratchgolf

I have hearing loss in both ears due to combat related noises and a head injury. We wear earplugs on the firing range but I never did in combat. You can't really afford to on patrol and you don't have time to put them in when the fun begins. That, plus constant explosions and mortar/artillery fire and helicopters. The Chinook is so loud that you can stand next to someone on its back ramp and hear nothing they say unless they literally scream. Having said that, my music levels are a bit too high for my families liking and I have great difficulty hearing human voices with additional noise (such as a faucet running). While I certainly hope my hearing won't deteriorate further, I'm terrified of the possibility. I've often thought whether I'd prefer to lose hearing or vision. One would take music away from me and the other golf. Then again, there have been studies that show the golf game suffers with no sound. The whole concept of "feel" in a well struck shot is greatly affected by the sound of the shot. During one such test, people who claimed they could feel a well struck shot had virtually no clue when deprived of sound. So........I guess I'll say, come on blindness!


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## Headphone Hermit

Yup - I'm very careful because I don't want to accelerate the hearing loss that will come naturally, so I generally listen at alower volume than is comfortable. 

Having good hearing can be a nuisance sometimes - I get really irritated listening to extraneous noise, especially when listening to music and I know I can hear things that other people close to me can't hear (for example a pianist humming along as he plays that others in the same room or concert can't hear .... and no, I'm not imagining it!)

A few years ago I changed my speakers (to Mordant-Short Mezzos) and the improvement in sound quality was amazing but for a number of weeks, my ears hurt because there was a far wider range of frequencies being reproduced and my ears weren't used to the higher end frequencies in the older speakers.


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## PetrB

If your ears are ringing after a listen to a disc, a concert, after only making two cuts in a board with a power tool, having mowed the lawn, or after several hours at the pub -- some irreversible and permanent loss has already taken place. Fact.

No matter how good / great the equipment, earphones and ear buds are bad for you... period.


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## Krummhorn

Absolutely of great concern. I used to work in a situation where there was a constant "white noise" ... in the 5000-7000 Hz range ... mostly multiple cooling fans on electronic test equipment. We finally won an argument and the company provided hearing protection, but the damage was already done and irreversible. 

These days I wear hearing assistance units - the electronics sit behind the ear and a little wire goes into the ear canal. Great for conversations and hearing lectures - bad for music like accompanying a choir nearby or while playing the organ at church as the pipework are also close by. Also rotten while out in the car driving ... so I usually mute them for that. 

I also have that constant ringing in both ears ... very annoying to say the least, but little can be done about it. It's better when I where my hearing aids though ... lots less noticeable, but still there.

I worry about all the people who have been exposed to very loud amplification of sound at live concerts. We are ushers at an important theater venue locally and for some of the music events we have to wear ear plugs. Why on earth these sound engineers believe that rock music has to be at 140 db is beyond my understanding. It would be just as audible at 65 db. 

Being louder doesn't necessarily make it better. But for classical music concerts, they hardly amplify anything and it's tough to hear some performances, especially solo instrumentals. 

Kh ♫


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## PetrB

rasa said:


> use them


yes! ..........................


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## SixFootScowl

Way back in the early 1980s I attended a Ted Nugent concert and sat in the risers in front of a speaker bank. I wore the foam earplugs and still it was WAY TOO LOUD. I remember other rock concerts where you would go to the restaurant afterward and the person across the table from you would say something and it sounded like they were at the end of a very long hallway. We thought it was funny at the time.

How about those people in cars that the stereo is rattling the body panels? They will be deaf before too long.


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## Headphone Hermit

Florestan said:


> Way back in the early 1980s I attended a Ted Nugent concert and sat in the risers in front of a speaker bank. I wore the foam earplugs and still it was WAY TOO LOUD. I remember other rock concerts where you would go to the restaurant afterward and the person across the table from you would say something and it sounded like they were at the end of a very long hallway. We thought it was funny at the time.
> 
> How about those people in cars that the stereo is rattling the body panels? They will be deaf before too long.


perhaps it will be more peaceful on the roads when there are no more mobile discos rattling around?


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## scratchgolf

Florestan said:


> How about those people in cars that the stereo is rattling the body panels? They will be deaf before too long.


That's how I prefer my rap music. In someone else's car, and preferably at a considerable distance.


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## Tristan

I don't really worry about it. Now that I have a very nice pair of headphones, I am more tempted to blast the volume (with classical or dubstep or whatever I may be listening to), but I keep the volume at a decent level. I've been to non-classical concerts before and I find them all to be excessively loud.


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## senza sordino

I've had tinnitus for about four years, it's periodic. Every three or four days I will have tinnitus all day, then it goes away. Oddly it is sleep which induces it, I'll wake up with it. When it goes away, it turns off gradually the next morning. 

I had my hearing checked a year ago, there is a slight loss at the highest frequencies in my left ear. Not usual for someone my age. 

The tinnitus is in my left ear, and my violin is on my left shoulder. I wonder if this is the cause of my tinnitus and hearing loss? The tinnitus all started when I had the flu quite severely four years ago, perhaps this was the cause? 

I never use head phones. And I never will because I don't want to loose any more hearing. It's too valuable to me. I don't play the violin that often, perhaps an average 30 minutes to one hour per day, I'm not a professional. I can't give up playing my instrument.


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## TurnaboutVox

I have moderate bilateral hearing loss due to chronic illness, and had a terrifying episode of total hearing loss in my right ear in 2000 which lasted 10 days. I can't hear much without my digital hearing aids. Essentially I have no perception of sounds above ~4 KHz . It would be devastating not to be able to hear music at all.

I urge all of you, and especially those of you who are still young, to look after your hearing and to protect yourselves from self-inflicted hearing loss for the future...

Lecture over. 

Enjoy music, be glad that you can.


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## Cheyenne

I once had a mild ring in my ears that lasted a few minutes after using head-buds, and it was a clear enough signal for me to never use them again.


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## Joris

I damaged my right ear with rock shows 5 years ago. I have slight tinnitus (which I only hear at night) and hyperacusis in that ear, the latter hampering the cognitive experience of music listening. I hear with my right ear as if underwater. But for some reason I don't notice to much difference with two earbuds.
It's a great concern even though I can still hear pretty well.


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## AClockworkOrange

I worry that I may have damaged my hearing with my iPod but I have never really thought about having it tested. I assume it's a little hypochondria inherited from my Grandfather. If I have, I expect it is minor and getting it tested at present would be a waste of the doctors time.

What I am doing is modifying my listening habits so I can hopefully enjoy music later in life. Cutting right back on my iPod usage and cutting Hard Rock/Heavy Metal from the car - the temptation turn up the sound is there not to mention it does alter your driving behaviour (something I was sceptical of until I tested myself).

Finally, because of the layout of my room, both speakers are hitting my right ear only so I have now started listening through my Headphones - open-backed. I keep the volume lower this way and enjoy a better quality listening experience.


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## Couac Addict

Spare a thought for those in the pit. 
Gentlemen. Start your earplugs. (6:58)


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## mstar

Would hear music when I woke up in the morning or at night and all was quiet. I had to stop listening so much. It was quite pleasant, though, at times, nevertheless odd. Hearing damage is a concern, though I tend to enjoy listening on speakers more so than with headphones, when I can. I like nice sound quality better than loudness, as well.


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## violadude

I used to be worried about hearing damage, but I figured that by the time my hearing were to get really bad they will have found a way to fix that up pretty well.


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## Blancrocher

This thread is enough to make one nervous!

Just a little tip for mac users out there: you can adjust your volume by smaller than usual increments if you hold shift+option in addition to the volume toggle. I like this ability to fine-tune the volume. There may be similar tricks for other computers (if they're necessary).

For what it's worth, when I'm using headphones I generally prefer to have my volume set to less than a single bar.

http://lifehacker.com/5916372/adjust-os-xs-volume-in-smaller-increments-by-pressing-option%2Bshift


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## Vasks

Oh dear. My mild, high-pitched tinnitus (in both ears) of 15-20 years increased last night dramatically in my right ear so that it's harder to hear in that ear. It's messed up my music listening terribly.


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## mtmailey

I do worry i do not want to end up like great composers who write music but not able to hear them, i am sure it was painful to them. not to hear the music.


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## Vasks

Some good news. My right ear today seems to be almost normal (well normal softer high pitched tinnitus). Music listening today was much more pleasant.


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## hpowders

Fortunately my hearing is quite good, but one never knows.


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## Fortinbras Armstrong

When I was in the U.S. Army in the late 1960s, I spent too much time on firing ranges without bothering to put in my ear plugs, too much time on combat patrols where I didn't even have ear plugs available, and too close to an artillery time on target. My hearing is definitely impaired.

My father was an engineering officer in the Royal Navy during WWII. By the time he died in his 80s, he was completely deaf.


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