# Classical Trivia



## bellbottom (Jun 19, 2013)

Indian classical music is very famous in the world as you all know. 
I write the solfege of the most commonest indian classical solfege' which is sung by master musician while playing indian harmonium instrument.
Sa Ni dha pa dha, dha pa dha ni sa re...
dha pa dhi ni sa dha, ma ga sa re....

This famous note was assumed used by a famous rap artist in on of his famous song?


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## bellbottom (Jun 19, 2013)

And the answer is - eminem...without me....






Perhaps before 1996, many US immigrations would 
blindly give away stay to sikhs and madrasis
So white neighbours children asked?
who are these? what are they?

But after coming to know the details
they came to know...
that they are sardarjis
and the blacks are madrasis.

eminem went along to sing their tunes
so there was nothing new
sardarjis madrasis were a household name
so nobody stares them nor get surprised


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

bellbottom said:


> Indian classical music is very famous in the world as you all know.
> I write the solfege of the most commonest indian classical solfege' which is sung by musician while playing indian harmonium instrument.
> Sa Ni dha pa dha, dha pa dha ni sa re...
> dha pa dhi ni sa dha, ma ga sa re....
> ...


The problem with using Western music theory like solfege to understand Hindustani sangeet and Carnatic sangeet, is that they regularly use increments in pitch smaller than a quarter tone, and there are a variety of uses for meend/string-bending that blur the line between quarter tone and semi tone. Some schools of thought, known in India as gharanas/traditions, prefer either angular or circular bending, or they synthesize the two to some extent based on their sense of musicality, and there are cases where a musician either jumps or wavers between micro tones in a manner fairly reminiscent of but decidedly different from vibrato.

Many rags use the same thaat/mode, but differ in jati and sruti. The jati is the collection of notes used, and there is not always a full scale being employed like Westerners would expect (actually a full diatonic scale would be the exception), considering that sometimes even as few as four notes are used. It is notable that in the same raag/piece there is not only a difference in arohana/ascent and avarohana/descent regarding melodic patterns, but even different jati that are considered permissible. The sruti are notes that are anywhere from a quarter tone to a micro tone away from standard, and whichever swara/notes are flat or sharp can make the character of the raga and help in part to distinguish it from other ragas in the same thaat.

Moving on we visit the concept of vadi/principle-note and samvadi/second-principle-note. Notes which are neither emphasized nor de-emphasized are called anuvadi, notes that are de-emphasized are referred to as durbal, while notes which are excluded are called vivadi. However, the art of ICM is always evolving and some have considered throwing out ideas like vadi, samvadi, and anuvadi (not vivadi) as traditions differ on which raga has which, so while some are agreed to have an "official" layout for emphasis you can find much variety with others.

Regardless of which is official, it is still central to understanding ICM because whichever ones the musician chooses he/she will emphasize one note the most and a second one nearly as much. Oftentimes the two represent something that feels tangible, and they are used because they epitomize the theme. Like I noted in a post a few days ago, in rag bihag the fifth and seventh are the two principle notes and they represent fevered romantic tension and sweet contentment (bihag is a love story between two Hindu gods). The seventh is dissonant so it evokes tension, and the fifth is a place of rest from harmonic tension.

One last thing that is notable before we finally get into the meat of a raag, is the samay/setting. Different ragas are meant to be played during certain seasons, can tend to be centered around a festival of religious observance, or are performed at a certain time of day (bihag is about romance, hence it is most often performed during the evening). This custom is no longer considered obligatory by every tradition but it is still fairly prevalent at least in the art form's home country.

But digging deeper into what really makes a raag a raag instead of just a mode with set rules for arohana and avarohana when improvising, we come to the pakad or swarup. Aside from the particular jati and sruti that a raga uses there is still considered a need for the main feature, the idiosyncratic part of a raga that most embodies it's theme and mood. In rag bihag, my personal favorite, the pakad is the musical phrase "pa ma ga ma ga" or "so fa mi fa mi". You will find this phrase in any performance of rag bihag, as well as prevalent use of phrases like "sa sa ni pa, ga ma ga 'pause'". Oftentimes the pakad or swarup is a natural consequence of arohana/avarohana, but sometimes it is unique and not implied by the modal structure. It is customary to enfold the pakad into the arohana/avarohana to make the ascending and descending structures more descriptive.






For those of you guys that saw his interesting post, one that excited me because it's not often that I find avid ICM enthusiasts here, you may not have got exactly how his solfege lines up with western solfege. It goes like this:

Shadj/sa- Do
Rishabh/re- Re
Gandhara/ga- Me
Madhyam/ma- Fa
Pancham/pa- So
Dhaivat/da- La
Nishad/ni- Ti

But really, this much information can only just get people started with ICM. I haven't even mentioned tal (the literal sanskrit word for "clap"), and tali/clap and khali/wave, the rhythmic cycles and different types of counts. Tali and khali are fairly similar to a conductor with a baton.

There are matra/beats that are stressed (such as the sam/first-beat), typically either 3, 4, or 5 in a measure, and measures can go in cycles like 3, 4, 3. Really, for the most part I've found that ICM is more rhythmically complex, and stimulating both to count and to simply let it do it's own work on you. There are many interesting effects that occur when you count in cycles instead of having a standard measure length, such as the lulling effect of the odd measures next to the steady even measures that don't seem to trail off after the stress beat like the others.

I could go on for days how that in spite of a number of things that resemble each other there is a wide gulf of difference in general thought as to how music is made. All ICM focuses on the melody, and any harmonies that arise are incidental to the relationship between the melody and drone note, drone phrase, or for example the chords being struck on the sympathetic strings of the sitar (a separate set of strings that are struck together, and they vibrate from overtones). All of this is a source of endless fascination for me, it is all to easy to get carried away thinking about it all.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Well, since you gave the answer away, I guess it's my turn!

Fill in the blank:

The "Tristan Chord" as it first appears in Tristan Und Isolde can be described as two ______ separated by a ________ ________.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> Well, since you gave the answer away, I guess it's my turn!
> 
> Fill in the blank:
> 
> The "Tristan Chord" as it first appears in Tristan Und Isolde can be described as two ______ separated by a ________ ________.


Not "two" anything actually. The intervallic structure is (from bottom to top, in its first appearance in the score) augmented 4th, major 3rd, perfect 4th (although the two *different* 4ths may swap later on). Basically just a particular voicing of a half diminished chord.

Next question: Mozart's Symphony no. 3 was composed by..........


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Well...if it comes to famous chords this is a favourite of mine. What is it?

E B D♭ F A♭

And no 'Googling' you naughty people!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

> Next question: Mozart's Symphony no. 3 was composed by..........


Leopold? One of the Bachs?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Badinerie said:


> Well...if it comes to famous chords this is a favourite of mine. What is it?
> 
> E B D♭ F A♭
> 
> And no 'Googling' you naughty people!


Well, I did anyway.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

brianvds said:


> Leopold? One of the Bachs?


Nope, nope. Keep guessing


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2014)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Next question: Mozart's Symphony no. 3 was composed by..........


Falco. Based on music encountered by the Titanic in Iran and Bombay.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lukecash12 said:


>


Nikhil Banerjee ~ sometimes, in trying to describe a musician like Banerjee, all the available superlatives suddenly seem like inadequate and pale clichés. Thanks for the link... its superb.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Nope, nope. Keep guessing


It was composed by Tom Hulce in Byzantium, where he shared a house with F. Murray Abraham.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Carl Czerny, I read, was a lifelong bachelor who lived alone but "with cats."

The burning question, then is, _*"How many cats did Carl Czerny live with?"*_


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Carl Czerny, I read, was a lifelong bachelor who lived alone but "with cats."
> 
> The burning question, then is, _*"How many cats did Carl Czerny live with?"*_


Tomhulcety cats.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Nope, nope. Keep guessing


Nannerl? Haydn?

Hmm, perhaps a name that might not ring a bell at all, for all I know...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

brianvds said:


> Nannerl? Haydn?
> 
> Hmm, perhaps a name that might not ring a bell at all, for all I know...


C.F. Abel
A brilliant composer


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> C.F. Abel
> A brilliant composer


Midi N. Abel -- now _there_ is a brilliant and prolific composer.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Not "two" anything actually. The intervallic structure is (from bottom to top, in its first appearance in the score) augmented 4th, major 3rd, perfect 4th (although the two *different* 4ths may swap later on). Basically just a particular voicing of a half diminished chord.
> 
> Next question: Mozart's Symphony no. 3 was composed by..........


Oh ya that's right. My memory failed me on that one.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

What gauge were clavichord pins, and how much did a clavichord tuning jack weigh?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

What do you mean? African or European clavichord tuning jacks?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Weston said:


> What do you mean? African or European clavichord tuning jacks?


Trebizondian Clavichord tuning jacks -- sheesh, I thought everyone knew the only worthwhile clavichord to own are those of Trebizondian make.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Weston said:


> What do you mean? African or European clavichord tuning jacks?


Trebizondean Clavichord tuning jacks -- sheesh, I thought everyone knew the only worthwhile clavichord to own are those of Trebizondean make.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> C.F. Abel
> A brilliant composer


So does that mean we actually have the wrong numbers for all Mozart's symphonies except the first two?


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Weston said:


> What do you mean? African or European clavichord tuning jacks?


Is this an attempt at Monty Python humor?


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

brianvds said:


> So does that mean we actually have the wrong numbers for all Mozart's symphonies except the first two?


I sort of think all the symphonies Mozart wrote are slightly off because he wrote a few that are missing, correct me if i'm wrong someone but I thought the number he actually wrote (of symphonies) was over sixty... I can't say for sure but I feel that is correct and if it is imagine a set of new Mozart symphonies being found in some ancient library or antique desk in a hidden compartment.. 
That would be so boss. :lol:


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## bellbottom (Jun 19, 2013)

Yeah, there are/were many musicians who state their musics. Like J.S. Bachs, ludwig van beethoven,...but what music seems to the liking of the person that he could understand and admire. I for like or could understand herr mozart music.
And the clavichord that you have mentioned is saying that in amadeus movie, the instrument which sounded like haspsichord was infact a clavischord. The clavichord music playing i heard and it sounds very funny...just like as in amadeus movie.




Its rhythm scales seem very few just sa, ni, dha, pa....and variations. Said to be a medieval instrument meaning of the years 700 a.d. must be played by priest of the churches of that castle ages times. Its working looks to me like a santoor only the strings scaling rhythm made by the keys. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santoor
I once had tried santoor at a music shop, i liked its scaling so much only that i had played it like a harp, so very cool sound comes.
While harpsichord seems of advance scaling meeting like some creative tunes like dhrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiaaaaaaggggggh and co-ordinated fast tunes like chimes.

The indian harmonium i had once in my teenage years i used to practice some scales.....
It produces some harmonic scales somewhat low constraint music scales of sur ka sar(meaning of tones).




I still feel difficulty in learning it. Sounds seem nice.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Fugue Meister said:


> I sort of think all the symphonies Mozart wrote are slightly off because he wrote a few that are missing, correct me if i'm wrong someone but I thought the number he actually wrote (of symphonies) was over sixty... I can't say for sure but I feel that is correct and if it is imagine a set of new Mozart symphonies being found in some ancient library or antique desk in a hidden compartment..
> That would be so boss. :lol:


Mozart has quite a few symphonies that are not in his numbered canon, and others that are doubtful. Most of these are early and, frankly, not of a lot of interest. Any "lost" ones that might be discovered are probably likewise. His mature symphonies seem to be known and the list has been stable for over a century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_symphonies


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Fugue Meister said:


> Is this an attempt at Monty Python humor?


Dunno, load bearing in clavichords doesn't seem to be as puzzling an issue as swallows and coconuts. Kings *are* supposed to know that sort of thing, after all.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

brianvds said:


> So does that mean we actually have the wrong numbers for all Mozart's symphonies except the first two?


No. 2 was by his father!!!!!

And I've seen a manuscript of the 29th numbered as the 8th. The current numbering system is loosely chronological, but symphonies which are spurious or were discovered later on were slapped on the end. Of course, the current numbering system regarding 2 and 3 is out of date because they have proven to be written by others (although no. 3 is actually edited by Mozart).

The only indisputably correct number for any Mozart symphony is actually....number 1


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> Is this an attempt at Monty Python humor?


I would like to register a complaint!


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## bellbottom (Jun 19, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> No. 2 was by his father!!!!!
> 
> And I've seen a manuscript of the 29th numbered as the 8th. The current numbering system is loosely chronological, but symphonies which are spurious or were discovered later on were slapped on the end. Of course, the current numbering system regarding 2 and 3 is out of date because they have proven to be written by others (although no. 3 is actually edited by Mozart).
> 
> The only indisputably correct number for any Mozart symphony is actually....number 1


You mean herr mozart had some musical manuscripts not taken from count orsini rosenberg...?


free adult image hosting

The symphony no.8 you mention reminds me of this theme when the herr mozart, accompanied by his wife constanza weber and father leopold mozart went to wear fancy dresses for a party. I read about leopold mozart that he never even met count orsini rosenberg but had met with kappelmeister bonno. As i think that most of herr mozart symphonies are from count orsini rosenberg.


image upload no limit

Here in the party pictures we can see even the oldest daughter of leopold mozart......Maria Anna Walburga Ignatia Mozart..."nannerl". But funny that in this movie dramatization no one sees her as his daughter. 
Also haydn seems like of portugal?!!! Or he were of some kingsly lineage of king sebastian himself of portugal? And others also are something else but pretending to be someone else?

Are there any lineage of herr mozart left in this modern day? 
The herr mozart symphonies were perhaps the filed chronology of the performed edited by himself (herr mozart) and his italian-german musicians from the music manuscript taken from their dad leopold mozart or maybe from count orsini rosenberg. As those days might had been the task of herr mozart was to glorify the heritage music. So when he accomplished(improvised version) herr mozart became the owner of it.


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## bellbottom (Jun 19, 2013)

Once musicians came with their musical instruments. Two men sat down with sitars, one with harmonium, one with a tabla and a violinist. From tabla the musician gave the taal, then the theme was played with a harmonium, sur was given by violin and sitars played the accompaniment.
The audience thought that some classical bhajan was about to be played? But infact an american song was played, guess which one?


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## bellbottom (Jun 19, 2013)

And the answer is american hit song of 1998...."sunday morning" by no doubt






Sappy pathetic little me |first taal with tabla
That was the girl I used to be |then harmonium 
You had me on my knees |
I'd trade you places any day | sitar dhun
I'd never thought you could be that way |
But you looked like me on Sunday |
You came in with the breeze |and then violin
On Sunday Morning | Tambourine could give it feel
You sure have changed since yesterday | 
Without any warning |

I thought I knew you | tabla and harmonium rhythm gives sadh
I thought I knew you |
I thought I knew you well... so well | lastly with sitar

You're trying my shoes on for a change | violin gives tarannum
They look so good but fit so strange |
Out of fashion so I can complain |

You came in with the breeze | harmonium, flute gives sensation
On Sunday Morning |
You sure have changed since yesterday |
Without any warning |

I thought I knew you | tabla and violin
I thought I knew you |
I thought I knew you well... so well | glasses containing water could give tarang

I know who I am, but who are you? | harmonium and tabla
You're not looking like you used to |
You're on the other side of the mirror |
So nothing's looking quite as clear |

Thank you, for turning on the light | violin and sitar
Thank you, now you're the parasite |
I didn't think you had it in you |
And now, you're looking like I used to! |

You came in with the breeze 
On Sunday Morning 
You sure have changed since yesterday 
Without any warning 
And you want me badly
You cannot have me

I thought I knew you 
I've got a new view 
I thought I knew you well...oh well

sitar played.....


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## omega (Mar 13, 2014)

Which composer once asserted that it is more profitable to watch the sun rise than to hear Beethoven's _Pastoral Symphony_?


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## bellbottom (Jun 19, 2013)

omega said:


> Which composer once asserted that it is more profitable to watch the sun rise than to hear Beethoven's _Pastoral Symphony_?


I heard beethovens' symphony no.6 and its not that boring....it is very much similar like of mozart byzantine times....






I read ludwig van beethoven's in wikipedia and its young days portrait is very nice.
I found amusing the dresses worn by byzantiners men. There is a white scarf worn on the neck and a black bow tucked at the back. I never found such white soft embroidered satin cloth anywhere in bombay.


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## bellbottom (Jun 19, 2013)

pic host


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