# Why do singers' voices disappear?



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

In another thread here, I noted a discussion of Jane Eaglen, a singer who I lost track of back in the '90s, only to learn that (apparently) her voice left her. I guess my question is, what are the various reasons why thriving singers either eventually or suddenly lose their voices permanently (or at least, the voice changes so as to become unsuitable to continue in a major segment of the repertoire?)

Thinking of the most common situations I've heard of, such as: 1) a singer losing weight, (2) a singer gaining weight, (3) a singer smoking like a chimney, (4) a singer not having good technique to start with and wrecking their voice, (5) a singer with good technique just singing too damn much. etc. Any other stories you know of that fall outside these categories?

I suppose I don't know how long a singer's career is supposed to last without their voice naturally changing and aging to an "unacceptable" point... what's considered an average career length? Is this inevitable, given enough time, or...?

I've read interviews with active singers where they seem to have a fatalistic attitude toward this, i.e., "one day I will wake up and my voice will leave me," etc. Does that really happen, or is voice "loss" generally more gradual?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> In another thread here, I noted a discussion of Jane Eaglen, a singer who I lost track of back in the '90s, only to learn that (apparently) her voice left her. I guess my question is, what are the various reasons why thriving singers either eventually or suddenly lose their voices permanently (or at least, the voice changes so as to become unsuitable to continue in a major segment of the repertoire?)
> 
> Thinking of the most common situations I've heard of, such as: 1) a singer losing weight, (2) a singer gaining weight, (3) a singer smoking like a chimney, (4) a singer not having good technique to start with and wrecking their voice, (5) a singer with good technique just singing too damn much. etc. Any other stories you know of that fall outside these categories?
> 
> ...


The first respose that enters my head is "all of the above." I could add "trying to sing music that's wrong for their voices," which I think happens quite often, especially now when large voices able to fill out dramatic roles seem almost to have vanished and medium weight voices are tackling Wagner, late Verdi and verismo in large opera houses.

Eaglen seemed to have a decent technique and no lack of power, but of course she weighed about twice what she should have. I don't know any more about her. Many singers have rough patches or temporary crises which send them back to their vocal studies. This often enables them to recover satisfactorily but sometimes leaves them with diminished powers. Galli-Curci developed growths on the vocal chords requiring surgery; she wasn't quite as phenomenal afterward but still did some good work. Other singers with similar problems aren't so fortunate.

I think it was Jess Thomas who said that the vocal muscles naturally become less flexible around fifty (as do the eye muscles - people tend to start needing glasses around then) and that having a good technical foundation helps the voice survive that development. Really well-trained voices that haven't been abused sometimes last well into a singer's sixties, though normally with a loss of high notes.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

What does it take? Good training, taking care of health, smart repertoire choices, adaptability and most of all, luck. One perfect example, whatever you might think of him is Placido Domingo. The examples of those who didn't follow these are legion and I'm sure that we can all come up with a list of might-have-beens.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> The first respose that enters my head is "all of the above." I could add "trying to sing music that's wrong for their voices," which I think happens quite often, especially now when large voices able to fill out dramatic roles seem almost to have vanished and medium weight voices are tackling Wagner, late Verdi and verismo in large opera houses.


do you see now why I think discussing fach is so important?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

You're making me chuckle, BalalaikaBoy. Chuckling is pleasant.

I see now what I saw before now. What I see is that fach is an artificial category, like "large, medium, small, and petite" in clothing. Convenient, if you're just trying dresses on in the store to see how you look in various styles. But if you want to be perfectly dressed you don't buy off the rack, you get fitted by a dressmaker. 

Considering what fach you may fit into gives people who hear you sing an opportunity to tell you what they think is good for you. But you may not be suited to every role in this fach or that. You may also sing well roles outside the fach you're supposedly in. You may be terrific in two or three fachs. So what's your fach then? Do you have a "personal fach?" 

Singers need to know their voices, and they get to know their voices by testing them on music, not on fachs. Discussing fach is mainly a fun game for opera lovers. "Oh no, she's not a true dramatic soprano, not with that weakness in the lower midrange! Oh no, she might be a semi-dramatic coloratura, but surely not a true dramatic coloratura! Oh no, he's not really a tenore leggiero, he smeared a few of those fioriture! Oh no, he's not really a Verdi baritone, his upper register is a trifle too mellow! Well then, maybe he's more of a Cavalli Baritone or a Rimsky-Korsakov baritone..."

I've been listening to Rosa Ponselle and Enrico Caruso this evening. They had large, rich, cleanly focused voices, beautifully equalized from top to bottom, with great flexibility, and they could and did sing just about anything they felt like singing, from Handel and Bellini to Verdi and verismo. What's the point of categorizing them? If he hadn't died too soon, and she hadn't retired too soon, they might have sung Tristan and Isolde as well as Violetta and Alfredo (and God, wouldn't that have been something to hear!).

Harrrrumph, I say. Can singers meet the requirements of their roles well and do we enjoy hearing them? Can they go on doing those roles without hurting their voices? And if they can, then shouldn't they, regardless of how it pleases us to classify them?

Why the fach not?


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

There were some notorious cases of conductors pushing sopranos (in particular) into roles that were clearly unsuitable for their voices, with Karajan as a notable case. I seem to remember Katia Ricciarelli and Linda Esther Gray being examples.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

There are other factors too. Some have suggested that Callas's problems were as much psychological as physiological. 

I know of other singers for whom this was definitely the case.

It's a tough profession. More than any other musician, I'd suggest that singing relies more than any other skill on how one is feeling on any given day. Sometimes the voice is responding, sometimes it isn't. It's how you deal with those days when it isn't responding that counts.

My singing teacher was at one time seeing a soprano who had had a fair amount of success in the UK at least. She had completely lost her nerve. He said there was absolutely nothing wrong with her voice or her technique, but that, once in front of an audience, she began to tighten and tense and no amount of relaxation techniques could get over it. She never did return to the operatic stage, which is actually really sad, because I remember she had a beautiful voice and a charming stage presence. But when performing becomes more of a trial than a pleasure, I suppose it's the time to go.


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## Retired (Feb 15, 2015)

I think if we are going to ask this question, then we should ask why a baseball player can't last more than 20 years...or a good tennis player more than 15. Its an athletic and mental pursuit and doesn't last forever.

I have always thought that may singers got into trouble singing "heavier" roles because they couldn't sing them with their own voices...but rather tried to embody the expectations created by other singers. It takes a great deal of courage and discipline to avoid that trap. 

The fach system should be used very loosely in describing voices...at best. It is far too rigid. It totally ignores the dramatic nature of the artist. An artist is more than just the voice.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

No one has yet mentioned one of the largest factors when it comes to womens' voices. 
Menopause ... pure and simple.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

It happens to both men and women. Not only singing, but the quality of a speaker's voice deteriorates over time too.

Wear and tear on the vocal cords. It's like your car. Moving parts don't last forever.


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

hpowders said:


> It happens to both men and women. Not only singing, but the quality of a speaker's voice deteriorates over time too.
> 
> Wear and tear on the vocal cords. It's like your car. Moving parts don't last forever.


Agree with this completely. Look at the likes of Nilsson and Rysanek, both singers who were able to sing very demanding roles into their 60s... yes there was some apparent vocal decline, but even to be able to do that required careful career management. Domingo you could argue is the same. Yes he's tackled an enormous amount of roles, but how many of them did he actually perform live? All about knowing what the limits of your resources are and how best to manage them.

Compare Nilsson and Varnay, 2 very comparable singers. Varnay was singing Brunnhilde in her early 20s and had given up those sorts of roles by 50. Nilsson on the other hand didn't sing Brunnhilde until her mid-30s, still doing complete Rings into her mid 50s and was still singing Elektra into her 60s


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I remember Jane Eaglan though I never paid particular attention to her as I wasn't "into" Wagner at that time. When did her voice "leave her"? And what does the OP mean by her voice leaving her -- that her vocal color changed a lot, that she lost her high notes, that she developed a wobble, or that she was no longer able to sing at all?

It's obvious to me that most singers' voices change during the course of their careers; the Renee Fleming of the early to mid 1990's, for instance, sounds somewhat different from the Renee Fleming of the early to mid 2000's. From things I've read I also understand that some degree of _vocal decline_ is to be expected in a voice by the time the singer has reached the age of 50. This doesn't mean the singer should just stop singing, but that she (or he) should perhaps make certain changes in repertoire, discarding roles she can no longer perform credibly and adding newer and more suitable ones. The public as well needs to respect the aging singer's choices and understand that nothing lasts forever in its original state, least of all an operatic voice. It's common and too easy to blame any and all vocal problems on singer's having sung "the wrong roles." With some singers (e.g. Katia Ricciarelli) I think this has been the case, and usually those singers were pushed toward those roles by their conductors. In general, however, I think singers know what they're doing when they select their repertoire; too often the public -- and by that I generally mean Youtube "critics" -- speak as if they know better than the singer herself which roles she should be singing.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Bellinilover said:


> And what does the OP mean by her voice leaving her --


I can't say because I was only referring to a different conversation thread where others were talking about her. I haven't heard her since the mid 90s myself. I think the thread was posted recently, so a search should bring up the conversation.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Pushing the chest voice too high and overuse of the chest register can damage many voices. Of course Ponselle had a huge chest voice and her technique never deserted her. My sister was an opera singer turned voice teacher who says that singing with the wrong technique can get you by for the some years but in the long run it can start producing hollow parts in the voice and wobbles up at the top. Eaglen had excellent technique but IMHO she found that the breath control she had at 300 pounds at age 35 deserted her at 45 when she was 350 pounds. Callas' declining vocal fortunes were likely a combination of losing 80 pounds, singing Turandot 50 or 60 times before she was 30, and some speculate a degenerative muscular disease.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Pushing the chest voice too high and overuse of the chest register can damage many voices. Of course Ponselle had a huge chest voice and her technique never deserted her. My sister was an opera singer turned voice teacher who says that singing with the wrong technique can get you by for the some years but in the long run it can start producing hollow parts in the voice and wobbles up at the top. Eaglen had excellent technique but IMHO she found that the breath control she had at 300 pounds at age 35 deserted her at 45 when she was 350 pounds. Callas' declining vocal fortunes were likely a combination of losing 80 pounds, singing Turandot 50 or 60 times before she was 30, and some speculate a degenerative muscular disease.


I've wondered about Callas's enthusiastic use of the chest voice too. It was undeniably exciting, but...

A pity Eaglen didn't lose 150 pounds - gradually. She might have been a great Isolde if her body had allowed her to act onstage. The Met DVD is hard to watch.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

manyene said:


> There were some notorious cases of conductors pushing sopranos (in particular) into roles that were clearly unsuitable for their voices, with Karajan as a notable case. I seem to remember Katia Ricciarelli and Linda Esther Gray being examples.


Karajan gets a lot of stick for this sort of thing but it's worth noting that to my knowledge he never worked with Linda Esther Gray. So even he can't be blamed for that. It is true he cast Ricciarelli as Turandot but she had already sung Aida for Abbado by that time and was taking on heavier roles. The idea was to emphasise the fragility of Turandot. Also HvK wanted to make a filmed version in the Forbidden City in China and so he maybe wanted a good looking Turandot. Many great Turandot have not been possessed by good looks! Unfortunately Katia Ricciarelli's voice was not in good condition when she arrived for the recording which (according to Barbara Hendricks who sang Lui) upset Karajan so he did his trick of ignoring her. "Karajan, who had taken a risk in casting her for the role, was quick to show his displeasure and was neither kind nor supportive," writes Hendricks. Another example that the greatest conductors are not always the greatest men!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I've wondered about Callas's enthusiastic use of the chest voice too. It was undeniably exciting, but...
> 
> A pity Eaglen didn't lose 150 pounds - gradually. She might have been a great Isolde if her body had allowed her to act onstage. The Met DVD is hard to watch.


Eaglen was easier to handle on stage than up close on DVD. That was a big fail. She was a wonderful, wonderful Isolde when she debuted that role with a huge, beautiful voice with a frightening "curse" and great sensuality in the love duet.. I agree about Callas chest notes... great to hear but one wonders. I found the three voices of Callas exciting but my sister, the purist, would say that the integrating of the three voices would have lead to greater vocal longevity. Ponselle's voice was just as big in the chest register, but her voice was so seemlessly integrated that she could use her natural strength down low safely. Listen to 



 her Russian Gypsy Song where she successfuly imiates a dramatic tenor voice.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Karajan gets a lot of stick for this sort of thing but it's worth noting that to my knowledge he never worked with Linda Esther Gray. So even he can't be blamed for that. It is true he cast Ricciarelli as Turandot but she had already sung Aida for Abbado by that time and was taking on heavier roles. The idea was to emphasise the fragility of Turandot. Also HvK wanted to make a filmed version in the Forbidden City in China and so he maybe wanted a good looking Turandot. Many great Turandot have not been possessed by good looks! Unfortunately Katia Ricciarelli's voice was not in good condition when she arrived for the recording which (according to Barbara Hendricks who sang Lui) upset Karajan so he did his trick of ignoring her. "Karajan, who had taken a risk in casting her for the role, was quick to show his displeasure and was neither kind nor supportive," writes Hendricks. Another example that the greatest conductors are not always the greatest men!


Good thing he ignored her, I say.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Review of Domingo's Don Carlo in Ernani in the Times... ouch.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/23/arts/music/review-ernani-with-placido-domingo-a-tussle-to-hold-on-to-a-love.html


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## Lilyku (Jan 10, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> " Galli-Curci developed growths on the vocal chords requiring surgery; she wasn't quite as phenomenal afterward but still did some good work. "
> 
> I am happy to inform the readers of this thread that Galli Curci did not have an operation on the vocal chords . She had a goiter/ enlarged thyroid gland and the operation affected the laryngeal nerve . This nerve has actually been named after her afterwards. So her vocal decline had nothing to do with bad singing technique, growths on the vocal chords or wrong repertoir.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Then there are exceptions:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Lilyku said:


> Woodduck said:
> 
> 
> > " Galli-Curci developed growths on the vocal chords requiring surgery; she wasn't quite as phenomenal afterward but still did some good work. "
> ...


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