# Symphony 4: Tempest



## E Cristobal Poveda

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fR3JW7en6yqorRKWoK1waH1_DzCylQ_M/view?usp=sharing

First movement (Allegro Marcato) completed, now working on second movement, Allegro Scherzando.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

Currently doing some work on movement 2


----------



## nikola

Yeah... listening to it for more than 2 minutes. I can't any longer. Throwing bunch of tones together doesn't actually make a musical piece good. This is collage of tonal and dissonant stuff (that probably didn't want to sound dissonant!?) and this piece doesn't even breathe... it's a non-stop agressive explosion of sounds that simply don't work on any level. It's kitsch. Sorry.
There are many classical pieces like "Night on a Bald Mountain" or "Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun" that could actually become a base for thinking how to approach to music. 

I remember that Vaks once posted here a piece of his own and even if I don't agree with him on anything that piece was actually pretty much colorful and very good. 
Your piece lacks idea, focus and air that listener should be able to breathe in between those non-stop attack of agressive sounds. I even don't know what this piece wants to tell to the listener and what it wants to describe... a certain feeling? Celebration of madness? 
Maybe there's some concept behind it, but I really don't see it.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

What's interesting is that you list Night on Bald mountain here, a piece I consider to be far more grotesque than my own. As for the juxtaposition between agressive and delicate, it's meant to dramatize both the types of passages far more than they would stand on their own. And in terms of dissonance, it really isn't all that dissonant, unless you consider minor keys a form of dissonance.

And as for the concept behind the composition, you actually nailed it right on the head, there is intended to be an overall sense of urgency and madness, a kind of pompous march like piece, hence allegro marcato. I would also disagree with the focus bit, I would call this one of my more focused pieces, as it revolves around a few central themes and repeats and strengthens them overall.

And lastly, you aren't sorry. You intended every single word of that post, so don't apologize.


----------



## nikola

Your piece is like one neverending grand finale without interesting motifs. 'Night on Bald Mountain" may be more grotesque because that is its intention, but it still has pretty much cleverly developed all themes and good balance between all of them. Your piece is more like circus exploding in the face and you are forcing some changes in the piece all the time even though they are not necessary, but they do prolong the feeling of grandness that seems like it wants to end, but it never actually does end. 

I said sorry, so you don't need to suffer too much because the musical highness like me gave you an honest opinion.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

It would seem your parents never taught you to be humble. I understand I am a child, but this doesn't make much sense to me, so I take your critique with a grain of salt, unless echoed by a more reputable critic.


----------



## nikola

You came to the other thread only to tell me that my music is garbage. And I don't care because I'm pretty much aware of good and bad sides of my 'garbagy' music and I did have reviews from more reputable critics than I am. 

What did you expect after that? At least I'm honest about your music. I don't know how old you are. I only know what I heard and gave you and honest opinion, if not as musical highness then as experienced listener. 
It's not disaster, but I already explained why that piece doesn't work to me. Maybe it will work for someone else. Honestly, I don't care.
If you're happy with what you're composing, you don't need to take seriously critics from prick like me, right? Right.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

nikola said:


> You came to the other thread only to tell me that my music is garbage. And I don't care because I'm pretty much aware of good and bad sides of my 'garbagy' music and I did have reviews from more reputable critics than I am.
> 
> What did you expect after that? At least I'm honest about your music. I don't know how old you are. I only know what I heard and gave you and honest opinion, if not as musical highness then as experienced listener.
> It's not disaster, but I already explained why that piece doesn't work to me. Maybe it will work for someone else. Honestly, I don't care.
> If you're happy with what you're composing, you don't need to take seriously critics from prick like me, right? Right.


What I expect is objective musical feedback not based on personal opinion. 
If you completely hate my music, your feedback probably isn't useful.
If you think my music is the best in the world, again, the feedback probably isn't useful.
I look for a mix of both, so that I know what works for most and what doesn't.


----------



## nikola

Nothing will be useful unless you will be able to hear what makes sense while composing music and what does not.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

nikola said:


> Nothing will be useful unless you will be able to hear what makes sense while composing music and what does not.


What you fail to see is that what works and what doesn't is completely subjective. Stravinsky's success is evidence of this.


----------



## nikola

So, all music is great then. GREAT!


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

nikola said:


> So, all music is great then. GREAT!


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## Zeus

Is there any way you could get better audio, or upload a score? Thanks


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

i could get better audio when it gets performed, and I don't feel comfortable sharing the sheet music yet


----------



## Zeus

When will it get performed? This audio you shared is unlistenable, can't get past 30 seconds of a.piece which I'm sure is respectable.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

likely in december of this year.


----------



## childed

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fR3JW7en6yqorRKWoK1waH1_DzCylQ_M/view?usp=sharing
> 
> First movement (Allegro Marcato) completed, now working on second movement, Allegro Scherzando.


I really liked the musical content in this piece, in a live performance it will sound magically. I listened a couple of times, it's easy, although I'm very picky about symphonic music. here the motive and the variation of musical techniques are developing well. I also understand the chord sequence, so it's completely canonical. sounds quite modern and seems to me well suited for an adventure film. I want to listen also to the whole work when you finish, to say something more specific.

Serg.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1978nx7_g4McTu9e7-ciHU0OqcC2IBP5G/view?usp=sharing

Movement Two: Allegro Scherzando


----------



## Captainnumber36

It does feel like a big climax that goes on for about 5 mins; a finale. It has moments of breath, but not enough imo, and not in the proper places. You have some interesting passages within, though.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

I just (as in literally right now) finished the 3rd movement, Romance.

I also changed the first movement to its actual descriptor as used in the score; It has been renamed from Allegro Marcato to Passo Veloce con Furia e Trionfo.

Now on to the 4th and final movement, Gran Riassunto, Finale.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

III: Romance
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X4WNvgv_tY1qjDcTqQNUh8qoI21B4EYB/view?usp=sharing


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

The fourth movement is always the hardest!


----------



## Captainnumber36

I'm enjoying the second mvt. much more than the first!


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm enjoying the second mvt. much more than the first!


I personally think that the 3rd movement is probably the best out of them. It was certainly the one I poured the most emotion into.


----------



## Captainnumber36

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> I personally think that the 3rd movement is probably the best out of them. It was certainly the one I poured the most emotion into.


I'll listen after the 2nd is over.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Third mvt. sounding awesome! Beautiful work E. The whole work feels to me to have Beethoven's passion mixed with modern melodies, and a touch of American composer influences (like Copland, but better!).


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

Captainnumber36 said:


> Third mvt. sounding awesome! Beautiful work E. The whole work feels to me to have Beethoven's passion mixed with modern melodies, and a touch of American composer influences (like Copland, but better!).


Thanks! I can't wait until the premier... it'll be a moment I'll never forget.


----------



## Captainnumber36

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> Thanks! I can't wait until the premier... it'll be a moment I'll never forget.


When/where is the premier?


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

Captainnumber36 said:


> When/where is the premier?


December of this year in Hollywood, Florida. It's going to be very close to my birthday as well.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

Anyone here have any tips/tricks to help get out of writer's block? I'm in a serious funk...


----------



## Captainnumber36

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> Anyone here have any tips/tricks to help get out of writer's block? I'm in a serious funk...


Find a way to get inspired to create music...for me that involves listening to music that excites me, and then going to the composition room!


----------



## Phil loves classical

I don't recall hearing this before till now. It is energetic if anything. I can't quite hear an overall narrative, but hear some interesting elements. 

On writer's block, I tend to just hear what is there already and follow up with what I feel it leads to, for short term development. At some points there would need to be some overall structure. But basically I throw in a space holder of something sort of befitting and keep working around first, then work out that space holder later. 

This technique came from writing lots of exams where every minute counts. Personally I don't wait to be inspired, but treat it as a problem to solve by just work and reworking.


----------



## Vasks

Phil loves classical said:


> Personally I don't wait to be inspired, but treat it as a problem to solve by just work and reworking.


Anybody who "waits" for inspiration will have a lot of writer's block...LOL!!

Writer's block usually does not happen if you "work" on your music nearly daily; then it becomes as Phil says "work and reworking". "Work" in this case may be just tweeking a measure or two

However, one other solution is to forget the piece you're blocked on and start a simple miniature; something that you can pop off in a day or few.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Vasks said:


> Anybody who "waits" for inspiration will have a lot of writer's block...LOL!!
> 
> Writer's block usually does not happen if you "work" on your music nearly daily; then it becomes as Phil says "work and reworking". "Work" in this case may be just tweeking a measure or two
> 
> However, one other solution is to forget the piece you're blocked on and start a simple miniature; something that you can pop off in a day or few.


Just in case you were referencing me here, I was stating to actively search for inspiration, not just "wait" for it.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

I have remedied said writer's block by writing a short quartet, I'm back to working on finishing up the final movement.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

The grand old Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, has been completed!
Pop the champagne, get out the croquettes, and celebrate! This marks the biggest piece I've written in a while, and as soon as I finish the final touches, I'll be presenting this to the orchestra to start rehearsals for the premier later this year.

I: Passo Veloce con Furia e Trionfo
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fR3JW7en6yqorRKWoK1waH1_DzCylQ_M/view?usp=sharing

II: Allegro Scherzando
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1978nx7_g4McTu9e7-ciHU0OqcC2IBP5G/view?usp=sharing

III: Romance
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X4WNvgv_tY1qjDcTqQNUh8qoI21B4EYB/view?usp=sharing

IV: Gran Riassunto
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11-2_yhuv1eKyzkQkCyoeNIOZ_qJN1grW/view?usp=sharing


----------



## Phil loves classical

I find the last 2 movements more interesting than the first 2, since they seem to have more variation in harmony. The sound files don't seem to have much variation in dynamics. Is it the software?


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> I find the last 2 movements more interesting than the first 2, since they seem to have more variation in harmony. The sound files don't seem to have much variation in dynamics. Is it the software?


lol, you are so obsessed with harmony! .


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

Phil loves classical said:


> I find the last 2 movements more interesting than the first 2, since they seem to have more variation in harmony. The sound files don't seem to have much variation in dynamics. Is it the software?


Musescore doesn't parse crescendos and decrescendos very well in playback, and the dynamics aren't varied that much.

A real-life performance would be more varied.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

Captainnumber36 said:


> lol, you are so obsessed with harmony! .


Harmony is one of the fundamentals of music...


----------



## nikola

Ok, just listening to your "Romance". There is some decent motif, but some dissonant parts (that shouldn't be there) sound more scary than 'romantic'. Development also seems confused. It seems like almost every potentially decent part is destroyed by complicating the things, so instead that we have any type of closure of any idea you introduced us with, developments keep going and going and going in weird directions and everything becomes too much unfocused. Also, the software you're using is terrible. 
Your ambitions are way greater than your composing abilities so far. All this sounds simply crumpled together instead of composed. Try to feel music instead of doing bad mathematics out of it.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

nikola said:


> Ok, just listening to your "Romance". There is some decent motif, but some dissonant parts (that shouldn't be there) sound more scary than 'romantic'. Development also seems confused. It seems like almost every potentially decent part is destroyed by complicating the things, so instead that we have any type of closure of any idea you introduced us with, developments keep going and going and going in weird directions and everything becomes too much unfocused. Also, the software you're using is terrible.
> Your ambitions are way greater than your composing abilities so far. All this sounds simply crumpled together instead of composed. Try to feel music instead of doing bad mathematics out of it.


I don't bother to spend any money on playback software since I have the luxury of having an ensemble to perform my pieces, which i am ever-so-thankful for.


----------



## nikola

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> I don't bother to spend any money on playback software since I have the luxury of having an ensemble to perform my pieces, which i am ever-so-thankful for.


Your music still has to become better... much better.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

nikola said:


> Your music still has to become better... much better.


I could very well say the same to you.


----------



## nikola

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> I could very well say the same to you.


Saying what I say is not an argument. You could actually learn from me how to compose meaningful motifs... how to start them and how to end them, but it seems that you try to hide your lack of understanding how good music works behind overcomplicating things. Don't get me wrong... I know that my music is simple and I don't tend to rape my musical ideas and I don't compose classical music, but I know what to do with motifs that I come up with.

There are many great classical works that you could learn from. Try something more simple and more melodic to learn how things resolve. Listen to "Symphony from the New World" by Dvorak or "Night on Bald Mountain" by Mussorgsky. There are many different motifs that exchange throughout the piece. They may not be developed too much, but they're great and all motifs in one piece work together. 
You don't let your themes to develop and to resolve. You're going in the same direction throughout all piece and complicate everything you can, but nothing meaningful ever actually happens.

What you're trying to do is actually to build, repeat and develop one or 2 motifs, but that is way too complicated for you. It almost seems like you're trying to achieve something that Wagner did with his piece Liebestod: 



But you have to understand that achieving something like that is very hard. The way he develops his motif is really spectacular. The way you do that is nowhere near good. 
Try to tell a story with your motifs. Give them birth, adolscence, maturity and kill them then. Try with small steps. Don't torture motif like it is your worst enemy. Try to feel it. Let it tell you what it wants to tell you. You can't torture music to make something. You must let the music speak through you.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

nikola said:


> Saying what I say is not an argument. You could actually learn from me how to compose meaningful motifs... how to start them and how to end them, but it seems that you try to hide your lack of understanding how good music works behind overcomplicating things. Don't get me wrong... I know that my music is simple and I don't tend to rape my musical ideas and I don't compose classical music, but I know what to do with motifs that I come up with.
> 
> There are many great classical works that you could learn from. Try something more simple and more melodic to learn how things resolve. Listen to "Symphony from the New World" by Dvorak or "Night on Bald Mountain" by Mussorgsky. There are many different motifs that exchange throughout the piece. They may not be developed too much, but they're great and all motifs in one piece work together.
> You don't let your themes to develop and to resolve. You're going in the same direction throughout all piece and complicate everything you can, but nothing meaningful ever actually happens.
> 
> What you're trying to do is actually to build, repeat and develop one or 2 motifs, but that is way too complicated for you. It almost seems like you're trying to achieve something that Wagner did with his piece Liebestod:
> 
> 
> 
> But you have to understand that achieving something like that is very hard. The way he develops his motif is really spectacular. The way you do that is nowhere near good.
> Try to tell a story with your motifs. Give them birth, adolscence, maturity and kill them then. Try with small steps. Don't torture motif like it is your worst enemy. Try to feel it. Let it tell you what it wants to tell you. You can't torture music to make something. You must let the music speak through you.


I'll try and put this in laymen's terms: your music isn't good. I have seen nothing in your drivel of musical ramblings that gives me any reason to even consider any of your advice as worthwhile. If your sentiments were echoed by someone like Vasks or Phil, then I would consider acting on it, as those two are composers of genuine merit, but fortunately for me, your sentiments have not been echoed by them, nor anyone else on this forum.

I have honestly reached my limit in regards to putting up with you.


----------



## nikola

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> I'll try and put this in laymen's terms: your music isn't good. I have seen nothing in your drivel of musical ramblings that gives me any reason to even consider any of your advice as worthwhile. If your sentiments were echoed by someone like Vasks or Phil, then I would consider acting on it, as those two are composers of genuine merit, but fortunately for me, your sentiments have not been echoed by them, nor anyone else on this forum.
> 
> I have honestly reached my limit in regards to putting up with you.


You can lie to yourself no matter how much you want, but music isn't actually mathematic and all of you who are trying to turn music into mathematic are actually the worst musicians. 
You and Phil aren't actually good composers because you both don't have any talent to feel music on almost any level. I don't say that because of all this arguments, but because it is true. 
Vasks once posted pretty much brilliant 'artistic piece' (the way he described it) that you or Phil together would never be able to compose. Even if I don't agree with his views, he is actually very much able to compose. You 2 are not. Sorry.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

nikola said:


> You can lie to yourself no matter how much you want, but music isn't actually mathematic and all of you who are trying to turn music into mathematic are actually the worst musicians.
> You and Phil aren't actually good composers because you both don't have any talent to feel music on almost any level. I don't say that because of all this arguments, but because it is true.
> Vasks once posted pretty much brilliant 'artistic piece' (the way he described it) that you or Phil together would never be able to compose. Even if I don't agree with his views, he is actually very much able to compose. You 2 are not. Sorry.


I don't even compose mathematical music anyways, and Vasks has a great deal more experience in composing than I do.
You have not met me in any capacity sufficient enough to make any judgement of me or my abilities. Composing music isn't a matter of impressing people or writing the next brilliant masterpiece. Music is about expressing the inner depths of yourself in a way that can bring joy, anger, sadness, confusion, and the rest of the emotional palette to an audience. Telling someone to "feel" the music better is akin to asking someone to change their personality. You can repeat your talking points all you want, that doesn't hide the fact that you yourself, who claims to be a self-professed genius, is affected deeply by the lack of appreciation for your music, which is the real reason you feel so compelled to speak of others' work in the most negative fashion possible.

Your intentions are nothing but malicious, and even a fool could see that.


----------



## nikola

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> I don't even compose mathematical music anyways, and Vasks has a great deal more experience in composing than I do.
> You have not met me in any capacity sufficient enough to make any judgement of me or my abilities. Composing music isn't a matter of impressing people or writing the next brilliant masterpiece. Music is about expressing the inner depths of yourself in a way that can bring joy, anger, sadness, confusion, and the rest of the emotional palette to an audience. Telling someone to "feel" the music better is akin to asking someone to change their personality. You can repeat your talking points all you want, that doesn't hide the fact that you yourself, who claims to be a self-professed genius, is affected deeply by the lack of appreciation for your music, which is the real reason you feel so compelled to speak of others' work in the most negative fashion possible.
> 
> Your intentions are nothing but malicious, and even a fool could see that.


Oh, don't worry about me. My music is appreciated by people who have ears. I also didn't compose for a year because that's not my career and I did that for my own enjoyment. On the other hand, I would be worried if bad composers like you or Phil would think that my music is good on any level. 
You only prove me that I'm even greater genius than I already thought I am.

I am not malicious. What is malicious is to pretend to be offended by music by someone like Billy and then saying things like "This is insulting to composers who work tirelessly to produce actual symphonies rooted in some sort of theory and method."
There isn't a normal person who would say something so obnoxious and pretentious like that. With that, you said everything about yourself. You want to feel superior over others and that is probably to your mindset good way to hide your musical inferiority behind it. 
I gave you fine examples how to improve your music, but unfortunately, not only that you can't take such objective critic, but you obviously can't hear any problem in your music and that is why I don't even blame you because if you could hear what problems are, you wouldn't compose the way you compose your music.

At the end of the day, if I'm such musically clueless as*hole, why do you bother then at all? 
My opinion shouldn't mean to you anything just like your opinion doesn't mean anything to me. Move on and good luck with your professional music career.


----------



## Phil loves classical

^^ I agree with Nikola on the last part.

Something wrong with my ears. E Christobel's music doesn't come across as dissonant to me, even when my own does.


----------



## nikola

Phil loves classical said:


> ^^ I agree with Nikola on the last part.
> 
> Something wrong with my ears. E Christobel's music doesn't come across as dissonant to me, even when my own does.


Only some parts that shouldn't be dissonant are dissonant.


----------



## nikola

Just listened Allegro Scherzando. 
Same problems all over again. You came up with one pretty much childish, yet decent motif of 9 notes and instead of developing the piece, you ended up repeating that motif in all possible ways, so it sounds pretty much repetitive and annoying. Then SUDDENLY, out of nowhere at 2:14 some peaceful, yet very unfocused part is here interwined with happy and dramatic parts at almost same time and after that you once again start to repeat main motif all over again. 
Once again, your music doesn't breathe, there isn't any motif that resolves or develops naturally. Your approach to composing is pretty much agressive, unfocused and childish. 

Gran Riassunto is more reasonable considering some things I mentioned above, but combination of notes is pretty much unfocused, too much dissonant when it shouldn't be and it is simply not good in my opinion. Since 4th minute things seem somehow more promising, yet still you're too much lost in the woods and it sounds like you don't know how to find way out. 

Ok, so I listened to whole symphony and I certainly don't want to be "malicious", but I really don't like how you compose and how your brain works while you're doing it. I can't feel it and I can't find any mental picture while listening to it. My brain can't comprehend what this music want to say. So many wrong things here. 

If you have your fans who appreciate your music, that is great then. I'm just an idiot who is giving his personal opinion on your music. I'm sorry, but I don't like it and I think that I wouldn't be able to like anything you will ever compose. Not because you are maybe not able to compose something great, but simply because, considering how your brain works, we can never be on the same wavelength, so I will never be able to understand what you're trying to do here. This is all too much things simply thrown together. 

If I were you I would, first of all, try to come up with some strong motif and then I would let it to develop naturally. I would possibly add another related motifs and try to interwined them in meaningful ways. 
My critics don't need to mean anything to you, but I will still say how I perceive your music.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

Anyone here have a coupon for a printing service? I'm really dreading how much it'll cost to print out the hundreds of pages.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

Apparently the director of my orchestra is throwing this in the hat to potentially receive a $1000 grant/scholarship.


----------

