# Budget Bach Cantatas



## flamencosketches

Hypothetically, I'm in the market for a complete set of J.S. Bach's cantatas. However, I have yet to see a set that is priced even remotely within my budget. The ones I'm most interested in are particularly pricey: Leonhardt/Harnoncourt, Koopman, & especially Suzuki, which is only available as individual units at about 20 dollars a piece. It'd be in the thousands to complete the cycle. 

The only relatively affordable one I've seen is Rilling on Hänssler, of which I don't much care for what I've heard. Am I missing anything? Are there any other good Bach cantatas sets available for under, say, $100...?


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## premont

flamencosketches said:


> Hypothetically, I'm in the market for a complete set of J.S. Bach's cantatas. However, I have yet to see a set that is priced even remotely within my budget. The ones I'm most interested in are particularly pricey: Leonhardt/Harnoncourt, Koopman, & especially Suzuki, which is only available as individual units at about 20 dollars a piece. It'd be in the thousands to complete the cycle.
> 
> The only relatively affordable one I've seen is Rilling on Hänssler, of which I don't much care for what I've heard. Am I missing anything? Are there any other good Bach cantatas sets available for under, say, $100...?


You may probably be able to acquire Leusink for thet price or less, but I don't think you would be satisfied with it.

Compared to the others mentioned Rilling's set is oldfashioned, but do I think well conducted - imagine Rilling a little more informed than Karl Richter. As I have written elsewhere the vocal soloists are a mixed bag, some of them are much too operatic for my taste, but others are very good. Countertenors are fortunately not used. The choir is too big to my taste, but very well reharsed, and the instrumental soloists - playing modern instruments - are excellent. So if you are not a HIP fanatic, you could do worse than respond to a well-priced offer of this set. But in the long run you probably will want a HIP set.

Leonhardt/Harnoncourt always engage me when listening not the least because of some of the vocal soloists, particularly Kurt Equiluz - one of the greatest Bach tenors ever. The boy soloists are variable but whatever, it's at least authentic.

I own the Suzuki set, but haven't listened so much to it, that I dare to put a general opinion of it.

The cost of the Koopman set has until now been forbidding for me.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Surprised you don’t like Rilling if you like Richter. Very similar approach if slightly less “square” at times. I occasionally turn to Rilling for lush, old-fashioned performances of the cantatas but as premont mentions the large choir size and, like with Richter, the loudness of the choir (I don’t like choirs that sound like they’re shouting) draw me off. His soloists are superb though with some big names.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Surprised you don't like Rilling if you like Richter. Very similar approach if slightly less "square" at times. I occasionally turn to Rilling for lush, old-fashioned performances of the cantatas but as premont mentions the large choir size and, like with Richter, the loudness of the choir (I don't like choirs that sound like they're shouting) draw me off. His soloists are superb though with some big names.


I don't think I would like a complete cantatas cycle from Richter, either-I see the cantatas as more intimate than the likes of the Mass or Passions; in other words, they seem to demand HIP a lot more, at least for me, than the larger works. Re: "square", I would describe Rilling as such over Richter, but maybe I just haven't heard the right stuff from him. I also don't like the recorded sound, it seems a bit on the "boxy" side of things.

@Premont, I don't know much about the Leusink. Why do you say I wouldn't like it?


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## Bulldog

flamencosketches said:


> Hypothetically, I'm in the market for a complete set of J.S. Bach's cantatas.


It's probably best to keep it in the hypothetical mode; low-cost complete sets just aren't good enough.

Is it really important to have a complete set? I'm not a fan of "completes"; my thinking is that I can only listen to one cantata at a time. I do own at least one copy of every cantata from conductors including Gardiner, Herreweghe, Rifkin, Suzuki, Koopman, etc. It took quite a few years to get them all, but I wasn't in a hurry about it.


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## Knorf

The Gardiner 2000 pilgrimage set is amazing, and if you watch places like Presto, JPC.de, etc., you might catch it on sale. I'd also check in the used market.


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## flamencosketches

Bulldog said:


> It's probably best to keep it in the hypothetical mode; low-cost complete sets just aren't good enough.
> 
> *Is it really important to have a complete set?* I'm not a fan of "completes"; my thinking is that I can only listen to one cantata at a time. I do own at least one copy of every cantata from conductors including Gardiner, Herreweghe, Rifkin, Suzuki, Koopman, etc. It took quite a few years to get them all, but I wasn't in a hurry about it.


Not really; great as Bach is, I'm sure there is some filler. But I want more than what I have. The only Bach cantatas in my collection are on Vol.1 of Koopman's cycle, the original Erato release.

@Knorf, though I enjoy Gardiner's B minor Mass quite a bit, his cantatas were not really on my radar-though I don't really know why. I'll look into it.


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## premont

flamencosketches said:


> @Premont, I don't know much about the Leusink. Why do you say I wouldn't like it?


The vocal soloists are of very mixed quality. The sad thing is, that one feels they might have performed better, if they had got sufficient time for the recordings, which were made in the course of one year. I like the boyish soprano Ruth Holton, and the Bass Bas Ramselaar is always relliable, but the other singers are not up to the standard we know them for in other contexts. The countertenor Sytse Buwalda has an annoying quality of voice sounding like an impaired variety of Renè Jacobs when worst. The boy chorus is often badly reharsed (lack of time again). However the instrumental soloists playing period instruments are generally of a high standard. It is difficult to assess the conductors quality under such circumstances. Often the interpretations feel a bit anonymous, and all in all they are not up to the artistic standard of the other sets.


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## Knorf

flamencosketches said:


> Not really; great as Bach is, I'm sure there is some filler. But I want more than what I have.


You'll be very surprised. The quality of invention and consistent avoidance of routine are extraordinary. Almost unbelievable, in fact. There is not a single cantata that lacks something special about it.



> The only Bach cantatas in my collection are on Vol.1 of Koopman's cycle, the original Erato release.


I have a couple of those. They now feel surplus to requirements.



> @Knorf, though I enjoy Gardiner's B minor Mass quite a bit, his cantatas were not really on my radar-though I don't really know why. I'll look into it.


You really should.

One thing, though: Gardiner's is complete of the church cantatas, but does not include the secular cantatas except those that were recycled as church cantatas (which many were.) I supplemented the Gardiner with the box of Suzuki's secular cantatas. Last year, for a limited time, BIS released a complete Suzuki set of all cantatas on SACD at a very nice price. You might be able to find that set; perhaps write to BIS. After Gardiner, just barely, Suzuki is my favorite Bach cantata conductor among those with complete sets.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Bach wrote cantatas of slightly lesser artistic quality - 86, for example, which I listened to today, was clearly written in a hurry, and I’m not a big fan of 16, 17, 59, 83 and a few others - but none of them could be called “filler” by any stretch of the imagination. At the very least even my less-favorite ones I would call “very good."


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## Knorf

And anyway many of the best cantatas were also written in a hurry! From a modern point of view, they all were.

ETA: I've been keeping a journal with quick notes concerning what I find remarkable about each cantata. I've never felt at a loss for words. Here's what I wrote about Cantata 86: "Solo cantata with interesting arias. Opens with a charming bass arioso. Soprano solo chorale melody with very busy oboes d'amore! Unusually beautiful chorale."


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## starthrower

I have to say I love the Ton Koopman recordings. But I have only 9 CDs. The re-issued box is just too expensive. If it was a hundred bucks it would be sold out by now.


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## Rogerx

flamencosketches said:


> Hypothetically, I'm in the market for a complete set of J.S. Bach's cantatas. However, I have yet to see a set that is priced even remotely within my budget. The ones I'm most interested in are particularly pricey: Leonhardt/Harnoncourt, Koopman, & especially Suzuki, which is only available as individual units at about 20 dollars a piece. It'd be in the thousands to complete the cycle.
> 
> The only relatively affordable one I've seen is Rilling on Hänssler, of which I don't much care for what I've heard. Am I missing anything? Are there any other good Bach cantatas sets available for under, say, $100...?


Ask our fellow member Bourdon, he's good in this Bach cantata's


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## premont

Rogerx said:


> Ask our fellow member Bourdon, he's good in this Bach cantata's


And Marc as well.


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## Marc

premont said:


> And Marc as well.


Lol. Thanks for that.
But, so far, imho, the knowledgeable things have already been said.
It's not easy to grab the entire cantata package at a low c.q. budget price. BIS made a few boxes of Suzuki's integral, but those boxes were only issued as limited editions.

In general, Leusink and Rilling are probably the nicest priced integrals (Rilling also did the secular cantatas), but, as mentioned earlier, they are not the most attractive performances/recordings. Of these two, Leusink is more historically informed (and the playing is on period instruments), but Rilling has got better singers, albeit some of them too 'operatic' sounding maybe.

Another pity (a bit off-topic though): it seems that the Bach project of Eric Milnes (Montréal Baroque, OVPP) has slowed down. Already 2 years without a new release.


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## jegreenwood

I so wish there was a complete set OVPP. That seems so "right" to me. (Maybe syncing with my preference for chamber music.) And I don't really care if it is historically correct. I have the Kuijken box of 64 and play several almost every Sunday morning.

For the larger works I do prefer larger (but HIP) ensembles.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I really like OVPP for the final chorales in the solo cantatas where the choir makes its only appearance at the end - it sounds very appropriately intimate. However, I can’t imagine many of the big choruses working well at all this way. The choir sizes of Koopman and Suzuki are a nice compromise between this and the overblown, murky shout-fests of Rilling and Richter IMO.


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## starthrower

The Complete Liturgical Year box is a really good set. At 19 CDs it'll keep you listening for quite a while.


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## Malx

starthrower said:


> The Complete Liturgical Year box is a really good set. At 19 CDs it'll keep you listening for quite a while.


Is that the Kuijken set you are referring to?
I was considering that as a possible purchase but have yet to hear any samples - is it ovpp?


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## starthrower

Malx said:


> Is that the Kuijken set you are referring to?
> I was considering that as a possible purchase but have yet to hear any samples - is it ovpp?


Yes, it is OVPP and it sounds good to my ears. You should be able to find some of it on YouTube. I also have been collecting used volumes of the Koopman recordings on Erato and I like those too. There aren't many copies at reasonable prices but so far I've managed to buy five of the 3 disc sets for pretty low prices.


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## jegreenwood

Malx said:


> Is that the Kuijken set you are referring to?
> I was considering that as a possible purchase but have yet to hear any samples - is it ovpp?


Some of the singers have been criticized (and I share in that criticism), but as I said, for the Cantatas the intimacy of OVPP just seems right for me.


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## Itullian

What's ovpp?................


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## Knorf

Itullian said:


> What's ovpp?................


"One voice per part." I.e., no chorus.


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## Allegro Con Brio

In my daily cantata listening lately I have really warmed to Gardiner. Rhythms are very tautly sprung but rarely fall into the trap of excess speed that Koopman often succumbs to. The soloists are excellent, warm, and engaging. The choir is one of the greatest in the world and always sounds amazing. Maybe just the slightest depth of feeling is missing which I find in Suzuki, but for anyone into physical collecting (which I am not) I would imagine this box set would be the most satisfactory deal (considering that Suzuki is OOP). I also rate Koopman highly for the most part (I like his use of the lute as continuo in some cantatas) but his chorales sound like the congregation is champing at the bit to get home for lunch, not pausing for reflection on the message. Speeds are generally pretty variable with him but he's always vibrant and creative and everything is well-sung.

I've also sampled some Leusink. I find the playing, sound quality, pacing, and choral singing very attractive (the boys sound well-integrated and pleasing to the ear rather than the hideous Harnoncourt/Leonhardt shenanigans), but the soloists kill the deal for me. I'm sure that countertenor Sytse Buwalda is an excellent artist, but I find his voice utterly painful. Tenor Knut Schoch is far, far too theatrically exaggerated and the others sound formal and severe. When it comes down to it soloists ultimately make or break a cantata performance and Leusink's team is simply not up to par.

I'm still undecided on whether I like Rilling's approach or not. I often start listening to one of his performances but find it too muddy in texture and generally "frilly," like Beecham's Messiah but without the fun theatrics so I switch to Suzuki, Gardiner, or Koopman. The soloists all sound amazing but the arias really are very operatic and over-milked. It's a very particular style and one that I'm occasionally in the mood for but I can't help but feel that, at the risk of sounding like a stuck-up HIPster, his mindset is just _wrong_ for this intimate, devotional music.


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## Malx

^ACB 
When you refer to Gardiner's recordings is it the more recent live ones?


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## starthrower

I haven't noticed the rushed tempos by Koopman but I'm not doing A/B comparisons with streaming.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Malx said:


> ^ACB
> When you refer to Gardiner's recordings is it the more recent live ones?


Yup! Sometimes the sound is a bit variable with the acoustics of the various churches they recorded in but that's minor.


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## SanAntone

Most of the collections mentioned so far are on Spotify, including one that hasn't been mentioned, *Orchestra and Choir J.S. Bach Stiftung, Rudolf Lutz*.

Very nicely done.

You can sample them as much as you wish and then if so motivated, purchase one.


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## premont

SanAntone said:


> Most of the collections mentioned so far are on Spotify, including one that hasn't been mentioned, *Orchestra and Choir J.S. Bach Stiftung, Rudolf Lutz*.
> 
> Very nicely done.
> 
> You can sample them as much as you wish and then if so motivated, purchase one.


But it is extremely expensive, about 25 Euro's pr. Cantata and far from complete.

OBS the title of this thread was: Budget Bach Cantatas!


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## flamencosketches

premont said:


> But it is extremely expensive, about 25 Euro's pr. Cantata and far from complete.
> 
> OBS the title of this thread was: Budget Bach Cantatas!


Good Lord, could you imagine collecting the whole set at that price all the way up? You'd end up somewhere in the ballpark of a down payment on a small house. Though Suzuki is not much better; I think each entry is roughly 20 bucks, and there's over 60 of them.


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## SanAntone

premont said:


> But it is extremely expensive, about 25 Euro's pr. Cantata and far from complete.
> 
> OBS the title of this thread was: Budget Bach Cantatas!


I had no idea the cost since I listen to them via streaming. I am mystified why anyone continues to purchase CDs, especially expensive ones, if the same recording is available on a streaming service. (j/k)


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## Allegro Con Brio

SanAntone said:


> I am mystified why anyone continues to purchase CDs, especially expensive ones, if the same recording is available on a streaming service. (j/k)


Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Nothing against people's collecting interests, but I just don't see why some people have to physically own everything...


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## Bulldog

SanAntone said:


> I had no idea the cost since I listen to them via streaming. I am mystified why anyone continues to purchase CDs, especially expensive ones, if the same recording is available on a streaming service. (j/k)


There is no permanence to a streaming service or a customer's membership.


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## Knorf

Bulldog said:


> There is no permanence to a streaming service or a customer's membership.


Exactly right.

Streaming television shows or movies, most of them anyway? Sure. That's fine for such things.

But leaving something as important as _music_-especially classical music-in the hands of anything as unreliable, variable in quality, and inconstant as an Internet streaming service? Absolutely unacceptable.


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## flamencosketches

Knorf said:


> Exactly right.
> 
> Streaming television shows or movies, most of them anyway? Sure. That's fine for such things.
> 
> But leaving something as important as _music_-especially classical music-in the hands of anything as unreliable, variable in quality, and inconstant as an Internet streaming service? Absolutely unacceptable.


Yeah, this. @Allegro Con Brio, you know the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you put a new book on your bookshelf after having thought about it for a while? Don't pretend you don't understand why we feel the same way with music.


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## Azol

Gardiner's Bach Pilgrimage cantatas cycle (all church cantatas) can be found in $120-150 price range which is likely the best price to quality rate anyone could ask for.


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## jegreenwood

flamencosketches said:


> Good Lord, could you imagine collecting the whole set at that price all the way up? You'd end up somewhere in the ballpark of a down payment on a small house. Though Suzuki is not much better; I think each entry is roughly 20 bucks, and there's over 60 of them.


I wonder if we'll ever see a Suzuki box that combines sacred and secular cantatas. (In SACD please.)


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> Yeah, this. @Allegro Con Brio, you know the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you put a new book on your bookshelf after having thought about it for a while? Don't pretend you don't understand why we feel the same way with music.


Yeah, I know. Nothing against it at all! I just see no difference in the activity of listening to lossless streaming vs. listening to CDs as compared to, say, reading ebooks vs. physical books; but I know that some people love having the "physical" aspect of things on their shelves and I can totally relate to that!


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## Knorf

jegreenwood said:


> I wonder if we'll ever see a Suzuki box that combines sacred and secular cantatas. (In SACD please.)


The released a special edition just as you describe late last year, and at a great price. I suspect they're all sold, but you can try writing to BIS to see whether any remain in stock. They're a lovely, small company and are very responsive to communication.


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## jegreenwood

Knorf said:


> The released a special edition just as you describe late last year, and at a great price. I suspect they're all sold, but you can try writing to BIS to see whether any remain in stock. They're a lovely, small company and are very responsive to communication.


Didn't know that. I've seen separate box sets of the Sacred and the Secular, but not both combined. Oh, well.


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## SanAntone

I just did a search on Spotify, "Bach Cantatas" and found six playlists created by the Spotify Classical Editor, *Ulysses*:

The complete cycles by *Suzuki*, *Gardiner*, *Kuijken*, *Harnoncourt/Leonhardt*, *Rilling*, and *Koopman*. Ulysses has also created complete chronological works (sometimes reverse-chrono) playlists for dozens of composers: *Bach*, *Schoenberg*, *Beethoven*, *Brahms*, *Perotin* (!), etc., even Nico Muhly. 

Say what you will about streaming services, but I, for one, appreciate having access to all of these sets for the cost of one CD a month.

That is about as budget minded as you can get, IMO.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Wasn’t aware of the existence of the Kuijken cycle. Any opinions on it?


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## SanAntone

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Wasn't aware of the existence of the Kuijken cycle. Any opinions on it?


I love it. It only covers one liturgical year, but his OVPP performances are excellent, IMO. I started buying them as individual issues, but only bought a few then forgot about them. But, then I got the 19CD box when it came out.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Yeah, I know. Nothing against it at all! I just see no difference in the activity of listening to lossless streaming vs. listening to CDs as compared to, say, reading ebooks vs. physical books; but I know that some people love having the "physical" aspect of things on their shelves and I can totally relate to that!


The comparison is not ebooks vs regular books, but buying books vs checking them out from the library.


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## SanAntone

flamencosketches said:


> The comparison is not ebooks vs regular books, but buying books vs checking them out from the library.


Not exactly. I've never been able to check out a library book for more than 2-3 weeks. I've been streaming music for a number of years and have experienced hardly any loss of music; only the opposite: more and more labels have embraced the platforms. ECM used to be unavailable on Spotify abnd elsewhere, but sometime in the last three years their entire catalog has been added to Spotify. And not only that - Spotify eidtors have created chronological collections of all of their recordings in a few playlists.

I think it is only a matter of time before the current holdouts, e.g. Hyperion, will join the team.

But it matters not to me if you or others do not wish to participate in streaming music. I works for me, but may not be for everyone.


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> Not exactly. I've never been able to check out a library book for more than 2-3 weeks. I've been streaming music for a number of years and have experienced hardly any loss of music; only the opposite: more and more labels have embraced the platforms. ECM used to be unavailable on Spotify abnd elsewhere, but sometime in the last three years their entire catalog has been added to Spotify. And not only that - Spotify eidtors have created chronological collections of all of their recordings in a few playlists.
> 
> I think it is only a matter of time before the current holdouts, e.g. Hyperion, will join the team.
> 
> But it matters not to me if you or others do not wish to participate in streaming music. I works for me, but may not be for everyone.


Not only that, but when one recording disappears there may be several new ones. I have eight recordings of the Goldberg Variations (not including one on the harp and one on the guitar). That's plenty for me to get by on. I guess I listen to the Goldberg Variations once a month, maybe not even that often. If I stream a great recording, I might purchase it, but perhaps not. If it vanishes, I've still got eight, and whatever new recordings are now available to stream.


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## Geoff48

Not complete but there is a Warner Classic 7cd budget box extracted from their complete set. Six CDs of sacred and one of secular. All the cantatas are performed by Harnoncourt. I paid about £13 for it and it makes an HIP supplement to my complete series under Rilling. To be fair I prefer modern instruments and full choirs to the HIP alternative. Maybe not going back to the pre chamber orchestra days which I find a little stodgy but certainly conductors such as Munchinger, Leppard and Marriner who sped up slightly whilst still showing affection for the music they performed.


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## Itullian

Just been comparing these two box sets.

I feel the Harnoncourt sounds better over all and fuller and more involving
The singers are better too.
The playing and chorus is better on the Harnoncourt
The only drawback for me is Harnoncourt uses a countertenor which i can't stand.
If you don't mind countertenors this is the one for you.
The playing on the Narnoncourt is a little scrappy sometimes, but I prefer it to the anemic sounding Leusink. Also, the Harnoncourt sound is balanced much better. The voices and chorus can be quite up front to the point of being annoying on the Leusink.

So.... the Harnoncourt wins hands down imho.
Going to compare the Harnoncourt with the Koopman next,

PS the Harnoncourt is a very nice value in a very nice clamshell box.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Are those different performances than his infamous boys’ choir recordings for Teldec? IMO those were very much a “work in progress” and though they feature some strong adult soloists (like Kurt Equiluz) the disastrous decision to use boy trebles and the weedy sound of the boys’ choir is a non-starter for me. Some things are just sloppily done like they didn’t have adequate rehearsal time. I actually like the light playing and choral singing on the Leusink quite a bit, but I find his soloists to be next to unbearable. So I have settled down to a steady rotation of Suzuki, Koopman, and the Gardiner pilgrimage cycle in my listening lately with an occasional dash of Rilling for an “old school” contrast.


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## Itullian

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Are those different performances than his infamous boys' choir recordings for Teldec? IMO those were very much a "work in progress" and though they feature some strong adult soloists (like Kurt Equiluz) the disastrous decision to use boy trebles and the weedy sound of the boys' choir is a non-starter for me. Some things are just sloppily done like they didn't have adequate rehearsal time. I actually like the light playing and choral singing on the Leusink quite a bit, but I find his soloists to be next to unbearable. So I have settled down to a steady rotation of Suzuki, Koopman, and the Gardiner pilgrimage cycle in my listening lately with an occasional dash of Rilling for an "old school" contrast.


Of course those are better. But this thread is budget cantatas.


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## flamencosketches

Itullian said:


>


Can you imagine being a prepubescent choir boy and this guy being your conductor? I bet those kids are traumatized for life.


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## Manxfeeder

flamencosketches said:


> Can you imagine being a prepubescent choir boy and this guy being your conductor? I bet those kids are traumatized for life.


One story I heard is that toward the end of that long effort of recording the cantatas, many of the choir boys ended up in tears.


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## regnaDkciN

Azol said:


> Gardiner's Bach Pilgrimage cantatas cycle (all church cantatas) can be found in $120-150 price range which is likely the best price to quality rate anyone could ask for.


Where, may I ask? The cheapest I've been able to find that set is slightly under $200.


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## Azol

regnaDkciN said:


> Where, may I ask? The cheapest I've been able to find that set is slightly under $200.


Currently at £128.99 on Amazon.co.uk in Like New condition.
P.S. I do not endorse that particular (or any) seller, but prices are changing all the time and what was quoted in August won't matter in October etc. Usual disclaimer stuff


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## Azol

£45.15 (shipping included) for *The Complete Bach Cantatas - Helmuth Rilling* boxset (71 CD) currently up at Amazon.co.uk









I ordered one right away! :tiphat:


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## jegreenwood

regnaDkciN said:


> Where, may I ask? The cheapest I've been able to find that set is slightly under $200.


https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...er cantatas&size=30&view=large&sort=relevance

Presto's box sale.

I keep thinking about it, but these days I strongly prefer OVPP - and Kuijken. I still might pick the Gardiner just to have a complete set.


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