# Most manly sounding classical music pieces and operas? (Manliest pieces)



## Jordan Workman (May 9, 2016)

What would you consider the manliest sounding classical music pieces and operas? For me, I think 'Nothung!' (Siegfried) by Richard Wagner, Ride of the Valkyries by Richard Wagner, 'Ein Schwert verhieß mir der Vater' (Die Walkure) by Richard Wagner, O tu ch'innanzi morte a queste rive by Claudio Monteverdi, O tu Palermo by Giuseppe Verdi, and William Tell Overture Finale by Giocahino Rossini sound very manly. By manly/masculine sounding I mean distinguished by a strong/not weak/not soft, heroic, brave, dark, powerful, hard, heavy, mighty/glorious, or intense sound. What are some others?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

It's strange you would choose the Ride of the Valkyries, because it's about women. But maybe I'm nitpicking.

This piece by Ives fits the description of strong, hard, heavy, and intense. Of course, Ives is presenting it in parody, as a commentary on the bravado of Hearst and his yellow journalism. I guess today we would call that toxic masculinity.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

of course Prokofiev





Prokofiev October Cantata opus 74 with Machine Guns - Revolution


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Surely the manliest pieces are those composed for a large organ.


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## Jordan Workman (May 9, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> Surely the manliest pieces are those composed for a large organ.


What are the best large organ pieces in your opinion?


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Nereffid said:


> Surely the manliest pieces are those composed for a large organ.


Yeah.

Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue BWV 582, for instance.

Here played by David Goode, 'organo pleno' on the impressive Silbermann organ in the Freiberg Cathedral.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Jacck said:


> of course Prokofiev


This reminds me of


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

The first movement of Mahler's 6th reminds me of mean-looking, marching (upright) elephant monsters that I drew as a kid


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

According to Charles Ives, it was anything by Carl Ruggles — and Mozart was a pansy.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2020)

Jordan Workman said:


> What would you consider the manliest sounding classical music pieces and operas? For me, I think 'Nothung!' (Siegfried) by Richard Wagner, Ride of the Valkyries by Richard Wagner, 'Ein Schwert verhieß mir der Vater' (Die Walkure) by Richard Wagner, O tu ch'innanzi morte a queste rive by Claudio Monteverdi, O tu Palermo by Giuseppe Verdi, and William Tell Overture Finale by Giocahino Rossini sound very manly. By manly/masculine sounding I mean distinguished by a strong/not weak/not soft, heroic, brave, dark, powerful, hard, heavy, mighty/glorious, or intense sound. What are some others?


I reject your definition of manly/masculine as too limiting. Men, let's hear it for our feminine side!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world. The paragon of animals. And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust?

That’s a pretty tall order in music.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> Surely the manliest pieces are those composed for a large organ.


You mean pieces composed for large sexual organ?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I have often described the symphonies of Carl Nielsen as "masculine", especially the 4th and 5th. Much of Gliere's music fits that description. Khachaturian's Spartacus and Gayane certainly are manly - so there are manly ballets. Opera: Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> You mean pieces composed for large sexual organ?


For a large pipe


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Threads like this make me want to run out and cause harm to small animals.


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## mark6144 (Apr 6, 2019)

For me the answer could never be anything but Carmina Burana.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

This finale:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Knorf said:


> Threads like this make me want to run out and cause harm to small animals.


Do you think Mozart was actually friendly to small animals, as Sara Buechner suggests?


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

A serious contender- distinguished by inter alia a strong, heroic, dark, powerful, hard, mighty intense sound.


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## Jordan Workman (May 9, 2016)

Knorf said:


> Threads like this make me want to run out and cause harm to small animals.


Why? What do you mean exactly by "Threads like this"?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Clearly Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy from the Nutcracker . Manly enough for you? Or virtually anything by Satie.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

mark6144 said:


> For me the answer could never be anything but Carmina Burana.


Even better, Poledouris, The Conan scores.


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## ThaNotoriousNIC (Jun 29, 2020)

Come to think of it I am always looking out for the next favorite manly piece or excerpt from an opera (for opera, gotta be anything with a bass or baritone at a minimum). The so-called manliness of the pieces get me real pumped up and ready to punch something haha. Jokes aside, here are some of my recommendations:

Opera:

*1. Rigoletto Act I, Verdi: Quel Vecchio Maledivami:* Sparafucile (bass) offers Rigoletto (baritone) his services as a hitman/goon to kill someone for the fool.

*2. Carmen Act II, Bizet: *Toreador Song: Nothing more manly than Escamillo boasting about how he takes on crazed bulls in the arena.

*3. Das Rheingold Act I, Wagner: Sanft Scloss Sclaf Dein Aug:* A lot of the music with the Giants, especially Fafner, has some real brash manliness within it. The leitmotif sets the tone and carries into Fafner's music in Siegfried.

*4. Tosca Act I, Puccini: Te Deum dalla Tosca:* I haven't had the pleasure of seeing Tosca live yet, but I think it is supposed to be Scarpia revealing to the audience his plans for Tosca and Cavaradossi. It is a good villain song and once the singer player gets going in the number, I can feel the chest hair growing. Love a great baritone/bass aria.

*5. Luisa Miller Act I, Verdi: Il mio sangue, la vita darei:* If I recall from when I saw it a few years back, Count Walter complains about his son not being macho like him and the pains of being a strong father.

Outside of opera here are some of my picks for manly/intense sounding music:

1. Holst's The Planets: Mars, Bringer of War
2. Capriccio Espagnol Mvmt IV, Korsakov 
3. The Firebird: Danse Infernale, Stravisnky
4. Samson et Dalia: Bacchanale, Saint Saens (the end of it can get real intense)
5. Night at Bald Mountain, Mussorgsky


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Carl Ruggles: Sun Treader


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Beethoven's music has always sounded masculine to me. It has muscle, verve, assurance and often a certain kind of humor. The fact that it has many tender moments doesn't change this overall impression.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Vaughan Willliams usually composes for wimpy side of people. But here is something uncharacteristic.






Xenakis






Here is a pretty beefy soundtrack






This one is from a recent Asian movie. I thought it was brilliant, how a woman played something aggressive, normally "manly" sounding.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Most manly? Surely it must be 4'33".


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Most manly? Surely it must be 4'33".


"speech is silver, but silence is golden"


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> A serious contender- distinguished by inter alia a strong, heroic, dark, powerful, hard, mighty intense sound.


I consider these pretty manly as well:


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> You mean pieces composed for large sexual organ?


You seem to have removed one of my _entendre_s.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's the most homophobic piece of classical music ever -- with a suitably homophobic performer


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

\zasxc bzsmc b


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It may be Salome.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Any aria written for a _castrato_.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

All symphonies are manly. Opera is for birds. String quartets are for members of the LBGT community. Everyone knows this. I think the British government should enforce these as rules like the 'rule of six'. Right now I'm listening to Bruckner 4 and shouting obscenities at the 2 blokes next door for playing Boccherini string quartets. Man-up lads!


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## Iota (Jun 20, 2018)

No doubt a bit weird, but when I was getting to know the last three Tchaikowsky symphonies as a teenager, whenever the strings in particular worked up into one of their turbo-powered frenzies (reasonably often .. Tchaikowsky rarely seems able to stay calm for long ..), I'd get a kind of fist-pumping feeling, very similar to the one that would make me play air guitar to any kick **** piece of heavy metal. 
And had anybody asked at the time I think 'manly' is exactly the word I'd have chosen to describe that music. 
Fascinating I know. (cough)

But as I'm now 804, and haven't heard a Tchaikowsky symphony in a long while, I'm not sure my choice of adjective would still be the same ..


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

*2:24*


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> Vaughan Willliams usually composes for wimpy side of people. But here is something uncharacteristic.


Whimpy? Vaughan Williams was the manliest of men. Hugh the Drover has a boxing match. Job, A Mask for Dancing has some beefy stuff. The Piano Concerto. Symphonies 4,6,7,9. A Pilgrims Progress has a battle between the Pilgrim and Apollyon. I know I'm missing some other works from this great composer.






Hey, I forgot Walter Piston's Mountains from the Three New England Sketches.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Alfacharger said:


> Hey, I forgot Walter Piston's Mountains from the Three New England Sketches.


Shucks, just the_ name_ Walter Piston is manly.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Strewth mate. If it's Percy Grainger, it's manly. As in Manly Beach. 
Anything else is just sand kicked in your poncy face, frankly.

But the fish and chip shop on Manly Beach does the best Shark and Tatties in the goddam Universe [Apart from the Aldeburgh Fish and Chip shop.. which probably doesn't do Shark now I come to think of it...].

Poke me in the eye if I lie, and I'll kick ya in the Evonne Goolagongs if you dare.

Er... Can you tell I'm conflicted?!


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

...........................


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Oh dear. I didn't know manly had a sound.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Here's some more manly music:


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

adriesba said:


> Oh dear. I didn't know manly had a sound.


It's the sound of an orchestra of anvils being hit by hairy blacksmiths, wearing Arran sweaters and drinking bitter whilst 100 lumberjacks play in unison on double basses strung with barbed wire. Perhaps we should have a new section on the site called 'macho music'. Right, I've gotta go, I'm off to moose-wrestling with my new manly friends (below). Thankfully none of this lot are in the least bit effeminate.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

The manliest man music this man knows:


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

S. Prokofiev: Ode for the End of the War, Op. 105 (1945)





this is for the alphas. The betas and gammas wont like it.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Apparently "manly" music has to be aggressive, perhaps even strident.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

JAS said:


> Apparently "manly" music has to be aggressive, perhaps even strident.


That's all true, man, so I realized manfully that this manful song about manly men being manly is the manliest. Also: disco is the new classical, clearly, indisputably, manfully, man. Because aggression is so manly.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

This thread is a gift that keeps giving.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Merl said:


> It's the sound of an orchestra of anvils being hit by hairy blacksmiths, wearing Arran sweaters and drinking bitter whilst 100 lumberjacks play in unison on double basses strung with barbed wire. Perhaps we should have a new section on the site called 'macho music'. Right, I've gotta go, I'm off to moose-wrestling with my new manly friends (below). Thankfully none of this lot are in the least bit effeminate.
> 
> View attachment 143216


It's fun to stay at the YMCA!

...

You can't stop the music! Nobody can stop the music!


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Horatio Parker had attended the concert featuring Amy Beach's Gaelic Symphony premiere and much enjoyed it. He said to Amy "I always feel a thrill of pride myself whenever I hear a fine work by any of us, and as such you will have to be counted in, whether you like it or not as one of the boys."

Some of this is quoted from Wikipedia.






William Fry's Niagara Symphony.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Merl said:


> This thread is a gift that keeps giving.


What more can you expect from a thread that uses "manly sounding" unironically, and literally in the very first post nominates "Ride of the Valkyries"?


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Knorf said:


> What more can you expect from a thread that uses "manly sounding" unironically, and literally in the very first post nominates "Ride of the Valkyries"?


I gather that the Valkyries were pretty manly, in some ways, and, as even Seigfried apparently discovered, not so in others.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I think what the OP means is 'macho' rather than 'manly'. I mean, I'm listening to Beethoven's 4th piano concerto which is not 'macho' but my goodness is 'manly'


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Knorf said:


> What more can you expect from a thread that uses "manly sounding" unironically, and literally in the very first post nominates "Ride of the Valkyries"?


why should you use manly ironically? Were you emasculated by the feminists and their constant talk about "toxic masculinity"? And out of frustration you want to hurt small animals? :lol:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

idea for next thread: the most feminine music. A music that is weak, not powerful, not heroic and brave (it has to express cowardy), not intense at all, the blandest the better.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Jacck said:


> why should you use manly ironically? Were you emasculated by the feminists and their constant talk about "toxic masculinity"? And out of frustration you want to hurt small animals? :lol:


There's no need to be emasculated to see the stupidity of certain stereotypes, that are offensive not just to women (that apparently have to be weak and cowards) but for men too. Basically this thread is saying that to be a real man you should be a macho. Also, I wonder what "mighty/glorious" has to do with "manly".
There's no problem for looking for music that sound a certain way, but let's say that Jordan could have asked for it in a less unfortunate way.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

norman bates said:


> There's no need to be emasculated to see the stupidity of certain stereotypes, that are offensive not just to women (that apparently have to be weak and cowards) but for men too. Basically this thread is saying that to be a real man you should be a macho. Also, I wonder what "mighty/glorious" has to do with "manly".
> There's no problem for looking for music that sound a certain way, but let's say that Jordan could have asked for it in a less unfortunate way.


Anyone here talked offensively about women or said that they are weak or cowards? Why should they be offended by men talking about music that makes them feel manly? And if they want to feel offended, despite the fact, that nobody did offend them, why should I care? Do I go to forums where women talk about what makes them feel feminine or come into contact with their femine side and do I feel offended? Men are a gender that in general is more adventurous, takes more risks, are more aggressive, historically served as protectors of family. Some of it is rooted is biology, the effects of sexual hormones on the brain. Most stereotypes actually do reflect some general truth.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Jacck said:


> Anyone here talked offensively about women or said that they are weak or cowards? Why should they be offended by men talking about music that makes them feel manly? And if they want to feel offended, despite the fact, that nobody did offend them, why should I care? Do I go to forums where women talk about what makes them feel feminine or come into contact with their femine side and do I feel offended? Men are a gender that in general is more adventurous, takes more risks, are more aggressive, historically served as protectors of family. Some of it is rooted is biology, the effects of sexual hormones on the brain. Most stereotypes actually do reflect some general truth.


I don't think I remember another thread asking for music representing a certain concept (love, soothing, angry, etc.) that has generated so much ridicule (some of it legitimately funny but some just pointless clutter). It's like some users (and I may be wrong) object to the very concept that masculinity is a definable thing. I doubt a thread asking for 'kindly sounding music' would receive the same sort of reactions.


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## Ellis Thompson (Jun 5, 2020)

Richard Strauss Don Juan / Ein Heldenleben?


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> A serious contender- distinguished by inter alia a strong, heroic, dark, powerful, hard, mighty intense sound.


Thank you for that reminder of what a genius Dudley Moore was. When sober.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Kodály's _Psalmus Hungaricus_.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

This is a seriously hilarious thread...thanks, TC, for giving me some Friday evening guffaws:lol:


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Any solo piece for double bass. I played it in orchestra for a couple of years and that was work. But to play solo it's not like you just have to "go to the woodshed." (Speaking metaphorically) it's more like you have to lug that woodshed out there and _practise_, knowing that playing your piece to an audience will requires nerves of steel, a take-no-prisoners demeanor, and the cheek to act as though your gruff and dodgy efforts belong in the same category as virtuoso performances by pianists or violinists.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

From an 1799 number of the _Allgemeinen Musikalischen Zeitung_ _(Leipzig)_, reviewing Beethoven's Op.10 piano sonatas:

"As already indicated, this tenth collection appears worthy of much praise. There is good invention and a serious, *manly* style."


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

KenOC said:


> "As already indicated, this tenth collection appears worthy of much praise. There is good invention and a serious, *manly* style."


This is how a real man feels when he loses a penny:


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## Lilijana (Dec 17, 2019)

I am sure that the trans men I know would absolutely be delighted to hear that they can just listen to the music recommended in this thread as an alternative to HRT! :lol:

As for me, however, if only this had the same effect as estradiol pills


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2020)

BachIsBest said:


> It's like some users (and I may be wrong) object to the very concept that masculinity is a definable thing.


You're not wrong. I object, if what is intended by 'manly' is to accept (by implication) a specific set of attributes for what it is to be a man.

Obviously, the word 'masculinity' has a dictionary definition, but that does not mean that it defines what a man is or is required to be.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I know a very big, tough farmer. He and his wife foster babies temporarily. When I see this huge man come in gently carrying a little bundle in his arms I think of him as a real man. He could break you in two with one hand yet he has the tenderness to nurse a baby. We can see that Beethoven could write the fifth symphony and also the sixth symphony at the same time. The same man who could write the Eroica could write Fur Elise.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I tend to need actual lyrics to think in those terms, describing scenes of men at war, sailors, and etc.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Jacck said:


> Anyone here talked offensively about women or said that they are weak or cowards?


saying that manly music has to be brave and strong seems to imply that feminine (the opposite) has to be weak and coward to me. (Also, I have a lot to object about the rhetoric of heroism but that's another story).
And considering that some female composers have made some of the strongest music I can think of (like Galina Ustolskaya) I think that these are stereotypes that have also a bad influence on society, saying to men that to be real men they have to have certain standards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machismo



> Mental health
> "_There is accumulating evidence that supports the relation between the way men are traditionally socialized to be masculine and its harmful mental and physical health consequences.[55] Respectively, machismo, is sociocultural term associated with male and female socialization in Hispanic cultures; it is a set of values, attitudes and beliefs about masculinity.[56] Although the construct of machismo holds both positive and negative aspects of masculinity, emerging research suggests the gender role conceptualization of machismo has associations with negative cognitive-emotional factors (i.e., depression symptoms; trait anxiety and anger; cynical hostility) among Hispanic populations._"[56]





Jacck said:


> Why should they be offended by men talking about music that makes them feel manly? And if they want to feel offended, despite the fact, that nobody did offend them, why should I care? Do I go to forums where women talk about what makes them feel feminine or come into contact with their femine side and do I feel offended? Men are a gender that in general is more adventurous, takes more risks, are more aggressive, historically served as protectors of family. Some of it is rooted is biology, the effects of sexual hormones on the brain. Most stereotypes actually do reflect some general truth.


sure men tend to be more aggressive and probably more adventurous. I can agree with that. And I can agree that some of it is rooted in biology. 
There's also a part that is rooted in social conditioning. Like the fact that men to be men aren't supposed to cry or that they should not like the color pink or that male children can't play with dolls. And that women have to be delicate and submissive and maybe stay at home and cook. There's a lot of ******** (BS) tied to these kind of differentiations too.
Not to mention the fact that I remember how dangerous the cult of the strong man could be.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

BachIsBest said:


> I don't think I remember another thread asking for music representing a certain concept (love, soothing, angry, etc.) that has generated so much ridicule (some of it legitimately funny but some just pointless clutter). It's like some users (and I may be wrong) object to the very concept that masculinity is a definable thing. I doubt a thread asking for 'kindly sounding music' would receive the same sort of reactions.


because asking for "kindly sounding music" doesn't imply other things about sex. 
Tell me, is this manly enough to your ears?






and what do you think about the fact that it was composed by a woman?


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

norman bates said:


> saying that manly music has to be brave and strong seems to imply that feminine (the opposite) has to be weak and coward to me. (Also, I have a lot to object about the rhetoric of heroism but that's another story).
> And considering that some female composers have made some of the strongest music I can think of (like Galina Ustolskaya) I think that these are stereotypes that have also a bad influence on society, saying to men that to be real men they have to have certain standards.
> sure men tend to be more aggressive and probably more adventurous. I can agree with that. And I can agree that some of it is rooted in biology.
> There's also a part that is rooted in social conditioning. Like the fact that men to be men aren't supposed to cry or that they should not like the color pink or that male children can't play with dolls. And that women have to be delicate and submissive and maybe stay at home and cook. There's a lot of ******** (BS) tied to these kind of differentiations too.
> Not to mention the fact that I remember how dangerous the cult of the strong man could be.


I dont know why you associate manliness with machismo, or make logical fallacies by claiming that if one gender is brave, the other is cowardly. You can imagine an ideal of manliness - toughness, bravery, decisiveness, leadership, self-sacrifice - and to look for music that expresses those ideals or feelings. The social conditioning is just a theory. I think actual experiments with toddlers have shown just the oposite, girls prefer dolls, boys prefer technical toys quite naturally, ie it is not a result of social conditoning.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Jacck said:


> I dont know why you associate manliness with machismo,


I don't associate it with machismo, but this thread to me seems about it. As the wiki voice says "s the sense of being 'manly' and self-reliant, the concept associated with "a strong sense of masculine pride: an exaggerated masculinity."[2] It is associated with "a man's responsibility to provide for, protect, and defend his family."



Jacck said:


> or make logical fallacies by claiming that if one gender is brave, the other is cowardly.


ok, fair enough about that. Maybe I took that in a extreme way that wasn't intended.



Jacck said:


> You can imagine an ideal of manliness - toughness, bravery, decisiveness, leadership, self-sacrifice - and to look for music that expresses those ideals or feelings. The social conditioning is just a theory. I think actual experiments with toddlers have shown just the oposite, girls prefer dolls, boys prefer technical toys quite naturally, ie it is not a result of social conditoning.


I don't remember it, but it seems I liked to play with dolls when I was very young. And I think you're a bit naive if you think that we are not conditioned in our lives by what society (parents, teachers, friends, media and all role models) says that is correct to do and what is wrong.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

norman bates said:


> I don't remember it, but it seems I liked to play with dolls when I was very young. And I think you're a bit naive if you think that we are not conditioned in our lives by what society (parents, teachers, friends, media and all role models) says that is correct to do and what is wrong.


of course we are conditioned, but we are not tabula rasa. The fundamental makeup of our mind is biological, including temperament, emotional reactivity and regulation. 70% of intelligence is heredity, not environment. Male and female minds are similar, but also slightly different. Just like male and female faces are similar but different, so are the minds. Brain development in utero is shaped by hormones, and genetics and the immune system. And even if manliness were just a social construct (it is not), then what is wrong with that? Why is there this agenda to prove that there is absolutely no difference between man and woman? Who is behind it? Some social scientists from some ideological crap specialties like gender studies (which is hardly anything more than a veiled faculty of feminism)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Jacck said:


> of course we are conditioned, but we are not tabula rasa. The fundamental makeup of our mind is biological, including temperament, emotional reactivity and regulation. 70% of intelligence is heredity, not environment.


where did you take such a precise number?



Jacck said:


> Male and female minds are similar, but also slightly different. Just like male and female faces are similar but different, so are the minds. Brain development in utero is shaped by hormones, and genetics and the immune system. And even if manliness were just a social construct (it is not), then what is wrong with that? Why is there this agenda to prove that there is absolutely no difference between man and woman? Who is behind it? Some social scientists from some ideological crap specialties like gender studies (which is hardly anything more than a veiled faculty of feminism)


If you're see an agenda to prove that there's absolutely no difference between man and woman in my comments, that's definitely not what I'm saying and what I think. I actually think that there are a lot of differences between men and women. I'm for parity of opportunity (by the way, I'm not sure what you have against feminism... there are sometimes stupid extremism in it like in many movements, but having equal opportunities is a absolutely understandable thing and I don't see anything wrong in it), I'm not for saying that there's no difference between them.

But yes, there are a lot of wrong things in social constructs. For instance in my country (italy) was legal until not so many decades ago to kill your wife if she had another man. It was called "delitto d'onore" (killing of honor). It was acceptable. You know, a demostration of strenght of a real man. It's still acceptable in many countries in asia (I can think of Iran and India for instance).
Few days ago, a guy killed her sister because her boyfried was a trans-man, and therefore not a real man. He later said to the police that her sister was "infected". There's pressure to behave a certain way to both sexes, that maybe (even without being homosexual) are not in the nature of a person. And if someone has to follow norms that are against our nature, that can provoke anxiety and depression and psychological issues, like in the quote about "machismo" I pasted above. And those things can also bring on a political level, to a vastly shared idea that the best leader is not the one that has empathy and compassion and understanding of problems, but just... not even a strong personality, but just a arrogant behavior (that explain why so many psychopaths are in a position of power). I don't think I have to make examples, since there are so many.
So yes, there are a lot of things that are wrong in social constructs that push men to a certain mentality to be strong men to be real men and that virility means just that, the "alpha man".


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

norman bates said:


> where did you take such a precise number?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ



> But yes, there are a lot of wrong things in social constructs. For instance in my country (italy) was legal until not so many decades ago to kill your wife if she had another man. It was called "delitto d'onore" (killing of honor). It was acceptable. You know, a demostration of strenght of a real man. It's still acceptable in many countries in asia (I can think of Iran and India for instance).
> Few days ago, a guy killed her sister because her boyfried was a trans-man, and therefore not a real man. He later said to the police that her sister was "infected". There's pressure to behave a certain way to both sexes, that maybe (even without being homosexual) are not in the nature of a person. And if someone has to follow norms that are against our nature, that can provoke anxiety and depression and psychological issues, like in the quote about "machismo" I pasted above. And those things can also bring on a political level, to a vastly shared idea that the best leader is not the one that has empathy and compassion and understanding of problems, but just... not even a strong personality, but just a arrogant behavior (that explain why so many psychopaths are in a position of power). I don't think I have to make examples, since there are so many.
> So yes, there are a lot of things that are wrong in social constructs that push men to a certain mentality to be strong men to be real men and that virility means just that.


yes, I hate such idiots too. Italy is notorious for being too conservative. I agree that this is definitely toxic behavior that can be changed by better socialization. But that would mean changing the conservative traditions, which in countries like Italy are interconnected with religion. This kind of institutionalized macho behavior exists in the whole muslim world. The religions is actually the problem. But in the past, among manly virtues were concepts like chivarly, being a gentleman, keeping ones word, a concept of honor. But there are also always the uncivilized brutes, the primitives.


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