# Why rate at all?



## Guest (Jan 31, 2012)

The over/under rate thread seems to have gotten to the perfect place for asking this question.

Apparently I thought it could be a separate thread.

Any road, I know what I object to the most about ratings, their verticality. And that seems to have been a perception among some of the posters to that thread, as is evidenced by a couple of ties, and a request that Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven be considered all three of them as number one. Logically absurd, but evidence that the logic of verticality is questionable.

So why not give the horizontal dimension a try?

With that, there's no need to position people on a ladder with some lower and some higher. And one result is _not,_ can't be emphasized too much (as it comes up inevitably if the conversation takes this turn), to say that Pierné is just as good as Beethoven, or that Lachenmann is just as good as Bach.

It is to say that "just as good as" is not pertinent to a horizontal orientation, even though, at first, it might seem as if that is exactly what horizontal implies. What is truly pertinent is difference. Composers are different from each other. Pieces are different from each other. Now we are free to attend carefully to what makes each piece, each composer, distinct and different from each other, to focus on the peculiar characteristics of each piece, individually.

In a horizontal orientation, Varèse's _Poeme Electronique_ is not better or worse than Beethoven's _Grosse Fuge_; it is different. In a horizontal orientation, it is easier to see that the two are not comparable, even, so there will be less comparing. Compare Wagner who wrote mainly opera to Chopin who wrote mainly piano music? Incroyable!

The familiar vertical orientation blurs differences and distinctions, setting up a hazy sense of "quality" that transcends time and genre. But can time and genre be transcended, really? Is it a good idea to try? The horizontal orientation says no.

I think that verticality appeals to many people's sense of status, so I don't see it going away any time soon. It's easy to feel that "What I like" should be roughly synonymous to "What is good." And we certainly see many different attempts to objectify value judgments, so that Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven, for instance, always come out on top. And if you like those three, then even better for you. Now it's you being ranked. And if you like the "best" composers best, then your taste is obviously superior. (Even if you don't like those three best, putting them on top, in agreement with everyone else, confirms your superiority.)

Horizontally, however, there is no top. There's only over here or over there.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Thank you some guy, I certainly agree with what you're saying. People can't compare *Ligeti* and Farrenc according to how good they are. It just doesn't work. And anyway it's pretty much impossible because of how different their music is.


----------



## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

The order of rank is sacred, it's an intrinsic, inextricable part of the order of things.

Looking, rankings are something universal, ranking artworks is intrinsic to art since the beginning of art.

Instead of asking why it's useful to rank composers, ask why Rolling Stones has its 500 Greatest lists, or BFI top 10, or AFI's top 100, Modern Library top 100 modern novels, Time Magazine's 10 Greatest novels, etc.

What you're asking for is to excise the words "good", "noble", "best", "better", "superior", "sublime", "beautiful", etc, from the world, because implicit in each of these words is that something is bad, common, worst, worst, inferior, plain, ugly, etc.

Horizontal appreciation is nothing more than monistic homogenization of difference, which is the obliteration of the work of art to subjectivist oblivion.









*I, and millions of others, want to see THIS, and NOT SOMETHING ELSE, at the theaters, not someone with a fuller, different figure or someone with an exotic look, or anything else or that matter. *

No one actually truly believes in this horizontal appreciation thing.

*Fact: More people prefer A-milli over Varèse's Poeme Electronique. *

If you want to get indigant, get indigant at the people who, over twitter, send death-wishes to a 13 year old girl for singing a pop song she didn't even write.

I have not called for Boulez's head, but the people want Rebecca Black's head on a platter.


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I actually view the rating procedures here rather as a presentation of a_ horizon of material_, preferrably as varied as possible. One could spend a lifetime arguing whether Ockegem should be considered no.40, 41 or 96 on an all-time list of greatest composers, and there would never be a definitive answer anyway. But the process can stimulate the reflection about quality now and then, which is good; the total abolishing of a qualitative hierarchy is absurd.


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Personally, I don't think ranking is a useful or laudable exercise. However, I think we all do each other a disservice by exaggerating each other's propensities to rank and to criticise ranking. _Both_ verticality and horizontality have their uses. This should be a pragmatic issue.

Vertical rankings are pointless and it is silly to make lists and promote ideologies. However, if someone were to ask me an extremely common question, "who/what is your favourite X?" or "can you recommend a good X?", I can answer that without denigrating any of the competition, but always implicit in my response will be a recognition of some personal standard by which my recommendation fares higher than others.

In more concrete terms, I can say that my favourite composer is Brahms, and this naturally implies that I 'rank' him higher than others, but it does _not_ necessarily follow that I therefore assign Brahms #1 and some other composer #2, then #3 _etc._

If we were to stay in the horizontal mindset all the time, our _only_ answer to the question, "can you recommend a good X?", which avoids all implicit ranking is, "no, because everything has merit." In that scenario, conversation would be a little dull.


----------



## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Polednice said:


> Personally, I don't think ranking is a useful or laudable exercise. However, I think we all do each other a disservice by exaggerating each other's propensities to rank and to criticise ranking. _Both_ verticality and horizontality have their uses. This should be a pragmatic issue.
> 
> Vertical rankings are pointless and it is silly to make lists and promote ideologies. However, if someone were to ask me an extremely common question, "who/what is your favourite X?" or "can you recommend a good X?", I can answer that without denigrating any of the competition, but always implicit in my response will be a recognition of some personal standard by which my recommendation fares higher than others.
> 
> ...


So you're saying maybe?

View attachment 2887


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

As brianwalker suggests, ranking is a fundamental feature of human psychology. Obviously some people feel more strongly about rankings than others do, but we all do it since otherwise humans would no longer be around. If we did not rank behaviors, starvation, predation, lack of offspring, or some other fate would have doomed the species.

One reason to rank compposers or works is that, for some of us, it's fun. We naturally have preferences and enjoy ordering those preferences.

Another reason to rank is that it can be _very_ useful to _some_ people. I have found that my musical tastes apparently match the "average" listener/expert quite well. Not perfectly, but amazingly well. When I began exploring, I started with Goulding's book of "top 50 composers" and their "greatest works". I found that book enormously beneficial. If I had explored more at random, almost certainly I would not grown to appreciate classical music to the same degree. Clearly many people have similar tastes to the "average listener" otherwise rankings would truly make no sense.

Listing works or composers horizontally could be useful as well. I assume you mean placing similar composers or works near each other and those who differ more farther away. Actually I can imagine coupling vertical and horizontal dimensions to give people a sense of the "average" value associated with composers as well as the degree of similarity of compositions. Both could be very useful to those interested in exploring.



some guy said:


> And that seems to have been a perception among some of the posters to that thread, as is evidenced by a couple of ties, and a request that Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven be considered all three of them as number one. Logically absurd, but evidence that the logic of verticality is questionable.


There's no problem with rankings that include ties. It happens in many areas where voting is used. It simply means the averaged values associated with two or more things are equal. It's not logically absurd and by no means evidence that the logic of verticality is questionable. Nothing that happens in real life is logically absurd.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

some guy said:


> I think that verticality appeals to many people's sense of status, so I don't see it going away any time soon. It's easy to feel that "What I like" should be roughly synonymous to "What is good." And we certainly see many different attempts to objectify value judgments, so that Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven, for instance, always come out on top. And if you like those three, then even better for you. Now it's you being ranked. And if you like the "best" composers best, then your taste is obviously superior. (Even if you don't like those three best, putting them on top, in agreement with everyone else, confirms your superiority.)
> 
> Horizontally, however, there is no top. There's only over here or over there.


Interesting.

In a different thread, you told us you work (part-time) at a record shop selling fine music. Suppose a customer walks up to you and asks you: "Can you recommend me a nice piece of Classical instrumental music? I'm a newbie". What's your answer? You might well recommend your few favourite pieces by Mozart. Or "Excuse me sir, can you recommend me something very good by Telemann"? You might well dislike the music of Telemann, in any case, whatever recommendation you give reveals your preference, though one shouldn't worry too much whether the customer will enjoy the recording or not.

TC would be a much duller place without all the rankings and bickerings anyway.


----------



## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

I've stopped coming here frequently because it seems we keep having the same discussions over and over. Here we go again with the lists...

Listing is normally nothing more than an easy, organized roadmap for newbies into something they're not already familiar with. You know, to give them an idea of what's "generally considered" to be very good music, so they can save time and avoid sifting through a bunch of crap. And yes, there is successful music and there is less successful music; trying to argue that everything is always subjective is a waste of time. All lists have their limitations: the list-maker may have personal biases, the list-maker can't have perfect knowledge (but he probably has more knowledge than the person reading the list, which is the point), etc. But it can still be helpful to the right reader. 

That said, there are some particular problems with ranking classical music: 

A) The world of classical music is extremely broad - 700 years worth of written music that has been recorded. Each subgenre of classical is deeper than all the pop music written in the last 50 years. Therefore, it just doesn't make sense to make all-encompassing lists that try to rank ALL classical music against each other. The more specific the list, the more accurate it will be, because comparing two similar things is much more useful than comparing two completely different things. 

B) Most lists focus on Classical and Romantic repertoire (and then throw in Bach and Vivaldi where appropriate). For some reason, that's what most classical listeners "consider best" right now. Thus, even if we try to put together genre-lists like top 100 piano works or top 100 symphonies, they will always be biased towards those two time periods... unless we, the "expert" compilers who have been long-term listeners, commit to expanding our listening horizons. This is not to take away from the amazing achievements of these time periods, only to say that it is a bit unfair to favor them so heavily all the time when we know there is much great music from other periods that often goes unappreciated.


If some of the listeners who are more familiar with 20th/21st century (or Medieval/Renaissance) repertoire would take list-making more seriously, it would greatly help the rest of us in becoming more familiar with those time periods.


----------



## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

I absolutely agree with *some guy*.

All propositions are of equal value. That is, they have no value at all. Any value that we give to them is also of no value.

With that, I leave poor *some guy* to the tyranny of the majority. Hope you have a merry time.


----------



## Guest (Feb 1, 2012)

How dare you leave me to the tyranny of the majority!!

Have at you!!:scold: (Sorry. TC doesn't have a sword fighting smiley.)

Anyway, I seem to have been considered correct in at least one observation, which was that verticality is not going to go away any time soon!!

For mmsbls, I did explored more at random, and I did certainly grow to appreciate classical music extremely much. 

For HC, it's not as difficult as you're making it out to be. A customer comes into the store looking for recommendations, I ask what they like already. Then we go look at similar things.

If they don't know what they like (in which case it doesn't matter), then I just guess. I've listened to one or two things over the years, so I have some ideas.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

The horizontal dimension talked about by the OP is a bit like the three types of canons, or the three big types. Of course, there are sub-canons within these as well. This is basic musicology. Anyway, here are the three -

- *Musicological canon *- eg. a work or composer's impacts on the history of music, innovation, context and where the composer "fits in" to the broad picture of music history.

- *Pedagogical canon* - in terms of what is taught to those studying music today. A degree is like 4 years, you can't have everything in that, it has to be narrowed down. This canon focuses on what to pass on to new musicians. Eg. style, craftsmanship, refinement of techniques, etc.

-* Performance canon *- eg. what is performed (various core repertoires of each genre), based on what is valued at a certain point in time (eg. today) by musicians, listeners, writers on music, etc. (this is where things like popularity comes in, but also other things).

These are just in my own words. Pick up a book on basic musicology and something to this effect will be in it.

I am not really interested in the canon, I use it only as a guide. I don't care for lists like the ones here on TC. I'd rather talk about music as if in natural conversation. I don't like playing with numbers. I am more into history and content of each piece, inspiration/influence of each composer. Eg. take everything on it's own terms first, then relate it to everything (or relevant things) I already know. This in psychology is called a schemata, a kind of store or scheme of things we have in our minds which informs our world view.

Eg. I love WEber's instrumental works - symphonies, concertos, chamber musics, also his opera overtures,_ The Invitation to the Dance,_ etc. His finest work, or finest opera, is said to be _The Free Shooter (Der Freischutz)_. My last priority is opera. I've been happy to listen to his other things until this point. I never thought, when getting into Weber's instrumental things like over 20 years ago, that I should listen to_ Der Freischutz _first.

Basically I don't give a damn about what I should or shouldn't be listening to. I just go with what I have some potential to connect with and like, be engaged with, etc. No lists of Weber's music would mention his symphonies. His piano concertos are near unplayable as he wrote them for his own huge handspan, which is bigger than the average pianists'. These have not entered the repertoire. Most people will maybe know his clarinet concertos though. So is there something wrong with liking works that are not considered a composer's best or whatever?

Wagnerites seem to be keen to tell people that if you like other opera composers more than him, there is some deficiency with you, something wrong. But the elephant in the room is that Wagner is not typical of opera, at least not typical of it in the 19th century. There are far more similarities between other composers of opera than him. He is on his own planet kind of thing. So if I like other opera composers, I'm basically like on the wide main street of a big city, not in some smaller street which is the equivalent of Wagner. J.S. BAch, a composer I'm not the biggest fan of, is definitely in downtown main street, Wagner is not.

*So lists can be useful as a guide, but not as an absolute.* So it may well be not a matter of asking "why rate at all," but asking eg. what is the purpose of the rating or ranking being done?...


----------



## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

This thread is so much better than that other thread.


----------



## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

some guy said:


> Horizontally, however, there is no top. There's only over here or over there.


Does this proposed approach also pertain to individual compositions? For example, is it somehow inappropriate to make decisions such as - which is the greater composition........... Beethoven's Piano Concerto #4, or Chopin's Piano Concerto #2? Or is this also a case of one being over "here", and one being over "there"?

If it does not apply to compositions, why not?


----------



## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

All art faces this problem of:

Objective vs Subjective.

I think any artist believes their work has value or else they wouldn't want to create it. That said, as a society we value Beethoven's music over that of Hummel. Do we actually know who's music is objectively better? No, of course not, because that's like quantifying a piece of nature - music is nature/science to me. 

But on a subjective level, we can, we must, for the sake of art, establish within ourselves what makes something of quality to us personally, and then we must identify as precisely as we can, what it is that makes something of quality to us - more than just "i like it" or "i like the beat". Because the brain is ever changing, there is no piece, no chord, no melody that constantly pleases us and therefore nothing can be considered "favorite" legitimately, but what can be determined is the overall enjoyment of a particular piece and the often-ness one wishes to return to it.

If a person has a vague idea as to why they like a piece and notices their enjoyment of that piece generally exceeds their enjoyment of another work, they can say at that moment, that Piece X is favored over Piece Y. Collectively as a community, it is very important IMO for the people who still embrace the classics, to openly discuss why it is they like and dislike certain works / composers. It keeps the trends changing, and brings to audiences music that people want to hear, but most of all the rankings which arise out of the discussion, show that there's still an active consensus to embrace certain composers, certain works. 

I am aware that it is not likely that in my lifetime I will ever see Mahler firmly established in the general top 5, and knowing that Bach and Mozart are considered greater by the general consensus has no effect on how wonderful I think any of those three composers are. I can objectively call Bach a greater composer because of the sustained impact and interest which people for several centuries have awarded his music.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

"Everything is equal. It's all good. Nothing is better than anything else. It's just different."

That's just an excuse for not having any criteria for quality... intellectual laziness. You can't grow that way. I say, go ahead and have reasons why you like something more than something else. Dare to be wrong! Maybe you'll learn something and come up with better criteria.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Basically I don't give a damn about what I should or shouldn't be listening to. I just go with what I have some potential to connect with and like, be engaged with, etc.


Yep. I can agree with that. Me own discovery of classical music was (and still is) largely a self-discovery journey. Of course we take the occasional recommendation/ask for others for advice etc. but by and large, mine is a self-discovery one. Lists can be useful to some extent, I don't believe in eradicating them. Anyone new and wants to discover music will often ask for a list amongst the ocean of stuff. But so what if the list turned out to be utter crap for the newbie? If the newbie has a real love for c.lassical music, then (s)he will want to expand out like most of us here do anyway.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

some guy said:


> If they don't know what they like (in which case it doesn't matter), then I just guess. I've listened to one or two things over the years, so I have some ideas.


So do many of us here. We have some idea what pieces and styles engage us. We naturally have a preference. Preference just means we prefer one over another. We could use words like "better" or some other positive attribute to assign and rank pieces because of preference.


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I don't take the concept of Mozart vs. Messiaen seriously; if I rank anything it's according to personal preference, as suggested by HC in the post above.

P.S.: Messiaen would definitely win.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

bigshot said:


> "Everything is equal. It's all good. Nothing is better than anything else. It's just different."
> 
> That's just an excuse for not having any criteria for quality... intellectual laziness. You can't grow that way. I say, go ahead and have reasons why you like something more than something else. Dare to be wrong! Maybe you'll learn something and come up with better criteria.


I don't think that it's a matter of having no criteria. That's black and white thinking. Most things in life are shades of grey, certainly most things in music.

For me, it's just a matter of taking each piece of music on it's own terms/merits and then fitting it into how you see the bigger picture of music as a whole. So it's my personal evaluation, based on my experience with music. It changes as I get to know more pieces and more composers, styles, etc.

I think it's about a balance between the broader consensus and what you value as an individual. Eg. what is your passion. It's not about suspending your critical faculties by any means. I reject that. I try to take each work on it's own terms, but it doesn't mean I can't be critical of it. Eg. I love Gounod's _Messe solennelle de Sainte-Cecile_ but I admit most of it is schmaltzy and sugary. But I would listen to it rather than other canonical things in that repertoire most times I get the chance. & it does have some authority and weight, it's by far the most popular and most heard of Gounod's 18 masses which he wrote. It doesn't mean it's the best, but there must be some baseline or common sense reason why it's the most popular. It's basically good music, but no use comparing it to grander and more serious things (which often bore me).

So it's taking things on their own terms as much as possible, and then relating it to the broader picture, comparing if you will. Problem is that many people start with the latter first, which then can lead to just judging things based on ideology (or dogma?) rather than the music at hand...


----------



## Guest (Feb 1, 2012)

Instead of ranking everything horizontally or vertically, I rank everything in 11-dimensional hyperspace. 

Throw in a few stochastic wormholes and everyone's (non)ranking is correct from at least one perspective (i.e. their own). 

This is a well-known method among us chimps that has been used for eons. Why is this so difficult for you humans to understand?


----------



## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

BPS said:


> Instead of ranking everything horizontally or vertically, I rank everything in 11-dimensional hyperspace.
> 
> Throw in a few stochastic wormholes and everyone's (non)ranking is correct from at least one perspective (i.e. their own).
> 
> This is a well-known method among us chimps that has been used for eons. Why is this so difficult for you humans to understand?


do you subscribe to any interpretation for the meaning of its 10-D hyper-surface?


----------



## Guest (Feb 1, 2012)

quack said:


> This thread is so much better than that other thread.


:lol:Funniest post, ever.:lol:

(But I'm not rating it.)


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

some guy said:


> For mmsbls, I did explored more at random, and I did certainly grow to appreciate classical music extremely much.


Surely you know that this anecdote does not refute the fact that most newcomers to classical music will be much more likely to fall in love with the genre if they have 'ranked' guides. If they randomly come across the least inspired of even the greatest composers, there will not be much to draw them in.

I think there is, however, an important distinction to be made between the use of ranking for newcomers and for experienced listeners. If you're unfamiliar with a genre, then a hierarchical list gives you a very good starting point to get going. Even with seasoned listeners like us, if there's a particular movement or time period we're unfamiliar with, such a list will help. However, when you're talking amongst a group of people about a composer or set of composers that you're all very familiar with, what on earth is the point of ranking them? This is why I dislike questions like "Brahms vs. Mahler" or whatever, because the assumption on a forum such as this is rightfully that most of us are familiar with Brahms and Mahler, so what is it for us to rank them? What do we gain from that? We don't even get a good discussion out of it, because the threads are just vehicles for one-liners and bitching.


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

bigshot said:


> "Everything is equal. It's all good. Nothing is better than anything else. It's just different."
> 
> That's just an excuse for not having any criteria for quality... intellectual laziness. You can't grow that way. I say, go ahead and have reasons why you like something more than something else. Dare to be wrong! Maybe you'll learn something and come up with better criteria.


Some guy can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember him saying elsewhere that it's not that he says everything is as good as everything else, but rather that he _does_ have personal preferences, he just doesn't then take those preferences to enter into a systematic ranking of things. That sounds healthy to me.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Polednice said:


> Some guy can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember him saying elsewhere that it's not that he says everything is as good as everything else, but rather that he _does_ have personal preferences, he just doesn't then take those preferences to enter into a systematic ranking of things. That sounds healthy to me.


I don't see how the former can avoid implying the latter. All you have to do is ask me what my favorite work by Golijov is, and we've started ranking.

Systematically objecting to it is merely conspicuous nonconformity.


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

science said:


> I don't see how the former can avoid implying the latter. All you have to do is ask me what my favorite work by Golijov is, and we've started ranking.
> 
> Systematically objecting to it is merely conspicuous nonconformity.


I addressed that in my first post on this thread. The distinction is that while having personal preferences does imply an inner ranking, having personal preferences does _not_ necessitate ranking of a systematic, quasi-ideological nature, manifested in the form of threads devoted to listing.


----------



## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I rank everything and I clearly know what I consider better than the other.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Polednice said:


> I addressed that in my first post on this thread. The distinction is that while having personal preferences does imply an inner ranking, having personal preferences does _not_ necessitate ranking of a systematic, quasi-ideological nature, manifested in the form of threads devoted to listing.


Anything of a "quasi-ideological" nature is manifested nowhere in the recommendations threads so clearly as in the anti-rankings threads.


----------



## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

Sid James said:


> The horizontal dimension talked about by the OP is a bit like the three types of canons, or the three big types. Of course, there are sub-canons within these as well. This is basic musicology. Anyway, here are the three -
> 
> - *Musicological canon *- eg. a work or composer's impacts on the history of music, innovation, context and where the composer "fits in" to the broad picture of music history.
> 
> ...


Too much information.

Haven't we seen all this before?


----------



## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

mmsbls said:


> As brianwalker suggests, ranking is a fundamental feature of human psychology. Obviously some people feel more strongly about rankings than others do, but we all do it since otherwise humans would no longer be around. If we did not rank behaviors, starvation, predation, lack of offspring, or some other fate would have doomed the species.
> 
> One reason to rank compposers or works is that, for some of us, it's fun. We naturally have preferences and enjoy ordering those preferences.
> 
> ...


Nicely put. I'm happy to agree with all this.

With regard to your last paragraph, I would only add that when I started reading the OP and spotted the comment of "logical absurdity" of equal ranks I immediately thought that if the rest of this thing is as clever as that it won't be worth spending any time on, and I was right.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Some guy can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember him saying elsewhere that it's not that he says everything is as good as everything else, but rather that he _does_ have personal preferences, he just doesn't then take those preferences to enter into a systematic ranking of things.


Expressing a preference *is* ranking. Not expressing a preference is being undiscerning.


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

bigshot said:


> Expressing a preference *is* ranking. Not expressing a preference is being undiscerning.


Hey Polednice, do you want to repeat yourself?

No thanks.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Rankings based on nothing more than "I like"/"I don't like" are fine for yourself. But there's really no point expressing that in a discussion forum, because personal tastes that aren't based on any sort of analysis don't apply to anyone else. Without a "systematic quasi-ideological" comparison, you're only speaking for your own benefit. If you want to get your idea across to someone else, you need to address the "whys". Resorting to an "I like because I like" argument is a good way to avoid testing your preferences to see if they hold water. You always get to be right when you're right because you're right.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Very Senior Member said:


> Too much information.
> 
> Haven't we seen all this before?


Yeah, you probably have, but it's like "one more time for the dummies." The dummies not being the majority on this forum, but people whose negative tone and wiseguy attitude I do not appreciate. You can take a hint from that, perhaps...


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

bigshot said:


> Rankings based on nothing more than "I like"/"I don't like" are fine for yourself. But there's really no point expressing that in a discussion forum, because personal tastes that aren't based on any sort of analysis don't apply to anyone else. Without a "systematic quasi-ideological" comparison, you're only speaking for your own benefit. If you want to get your idea across to someone else, you need to address the "whys". Resorting to an "I like because I like" argument is a good way to avoid testing your preferences to see if they hold water. You always get to be right when you're right because you're right.


Maybe you should submit this to Sid's false dichotomy thread! :tiphat:

Just as "I like Brahms" does not necessitate a listing of "Brahms #1, X #2, Y #3, Z #4", so it is that extending "I like" to "I like _because_" does not necessitate a systematic ranking.

I mean, seriously, have you even looked at the listing threads?!? If not, here's a little snapshot for you:

1. Composer
2. Composer
3. Composer
4. Composer
5. Composer
6. Composer
7. Composer
8. Composer
9. Composer
10. Composer
11. Composer
12. Composer
13. Composer
14. Composer
15. Composer
16. Composer
17. Composer
18. Composer
19. Composer
20. Composer. How about you? I'm learning lots!

Are you telling me that _that's_ informative? Because that's what we're talking about here, yet I see no "whys" addressed, no explanations, no elaborations. People _literally_ (literally!) just want to know the numbers and positions and, for some perhaps deeply religious reason beyond the comprehension of our species, knowing the orders and ranking must allow a pseudo-sexual gratification.

No. The really useful discussions are ones where we say, "What's your favourite X?" or "Could you recommend an X?" and the useful responses to those questions come in the form, "I'd recommend Y or Z _because_ [insert informative description]". Within such a reply is buried the _implicit_ fact that you have an inner ranking, with Y and Z coming at the top, but the ranking is not necessarily organised even in your own head, and you certainly don't need to engage in an explicit recital of names and numbers.

Once again, there is a _big_ difference between personal preference, which implies you like some things better than others, most likely because of things and stuffs and reasons, and the act of assigning composers to hierarchical ranks.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

You've mixed up the words "ranking" and "rating". Rating doesn't mean making a list from top to bottom. It's recognizing that certain composers are at a higher level than others. "Good, Better, Best" is rating. "Three stars as opposed to five stars" is rating. It's simply identifying some things as better than others. Everyone does that all the time.

Rating is determined by some sort of analysis and critical comparison.


----------



## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

rankings are good for me because that's how i discover new music.

NOT because rankings tell you what is better, but rather what you might like if you already enjoy a subset of the ranking. sorry if i don't have time to listen to EVERY single composer out there...


----------



## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

I personally rate for fun but I don't see a point to it. There is something about organizing from winner to loser that exites the mind. I don't know why but it would be something interesting to investigate. Personally I think that there is no point in ranking music except for showcasing your own opinion. That doesn't just go for music but for all of the other things being rated as well. Since everyone's opinion is different why does it matter what a world renound critic says about a movie, a restaurant, or a song? Why should his or her opinion effect anyone elses? Since there is no right or wrong opinion why should one person's view be more influential than another?


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

bigshot said:


> You've mixed up the words "ranking" and "rating". Rating doesn't mean making a list from top to bottom. It's recognizing that certain composers are at a higher level than others. "Good, Better, Best" is rating. "Three stars as opposed to five stars" is rating. It's simply identifying some things as better than others. Everyone does that all the time.
> 
> Rating is determined by some sort of analysis and critical comparison.


Yes, I take your point, but some movie reviewers here refuse to do ratings as you describe. Eg. give a movie "4 out of 5 stars" or whatever. They just write a review describing the movie they saw in terms of various common criteria in the field, eg. quality of script, coherence of plot, & in terms of it's acting, directing, cinematography, etc. If they do that thoroughly, then it's up to the reader to make an opinion - informed by the review - as to go and watch the movie or not. & to me, things like word of mouth are equally important. Reviews without numbers giving people options, not locking things down. But I don't mind reviews with these numbered rating systems, I'm just saying they're not totally necessary...


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

This thread is quite confusing, because it would seem that my rants against "ranking" have potentially been off-topic. I need some guy to make it clear whether he is against systematic ranking, or any kinds of rating and personal preference.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Just a meta-observation: the anti-ranking / anti-rating people seem to take the ranks and ratings a lot more seriously than the rankers and raters do.

People are just having fun, shooting the old bull, and maybe learning something, and people are taking offense to it.


----------



## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Maybe you should submit this to Sid's false dichotomy thread! :tiphat:
> 
> Just as "I like Brahms" does not necessitate a listing of "Brahms #1, X #2, Y #3, Z #4", so it is that extending "I like" to "I like _because_" does not necessitate a systematic ranking.
> 
> ...


Who is willing to write long winded dissection of their reactions to every note? Who is willing to read those long winded dissections?

I would love a thread where all the Wagner haters would lay out, step by step, note by note, phrase by phrase, which parts of Wagner they find pretentious, which parts they fail to find beauty and sublimity in. I would read it, who's willing to write it? Something along the lines of this post.

http://www.talkclassical.com/17623-liszt-most-underrated-composer-4.html#post265733

But even longer and more detailed.

Again, who's willing to write out those posts? These expectations are nearly impossible.

I want to start a thread "Why do you hate Wagner?" and list out 20 passages that I want each poster to describe in detail what they dislike and find lacking in those pieces.

1. Transformation Music from Parsifal
2. Leb Wohl from die Walkure 
3. Siegfried's Rhine Journey 
etc etc.

Example would be something along the lines of this.

1. Too slow, too dense, too ominous, I don't find the melody pleasing, there's too much storm and stress, I don't like the bells, the're pretentious, I hate tenors in general, the strings are too luscious and swirly. 
2. Heldentenors suck, the brass sounds like farts and bananas. 
etc.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> Just a meta-observation: the anti-ranking / anti-rating people seem to take the ranks and ratings a lot more seriously than the rankers and raters do.
> 
> People are just having fun, shooting the old bull, and maybe learning something, and people are taking offense to it.


I understand that there's quite a bit of bitching on those "lists" threads, or has been in the past. It has potential to become sectarian. Of course, there's nothing wrong with a healthy debate, that's what we're here for. It's just that I've privately talked to people who were not happy with how they got treated on some of these types of threads. I don't visit them for various reasons, I'm not a ranker or rater or whatever, a number of my favourite pieces by big name composers - eg. I gave Weber as an example earlier on this thread - would not see the light of day on those threads, but of course I am mainly mainstream, so a lot of the pieces on there would be favourites of mine as well. I doubt any Australian composer, for example, would make it there either. I am lucky though to have grown up with classical music around me, through my family, so I could follow my instincts in this field without too much need for lists (& in the era before the internet, I didn't notice that many lists, even in books on composers, they focused on things other than lists, but in more recent books lists have become more important - due to, I think, the internet)...


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!! I think I'll have a beer...


----------



## Guest (Feb 2, 2012)

Polednice said:


> This thread is quite confusing, because it would seem that my rants against "ranking" have potentially been off-topic. I need some guy to make it clear whether he is against systematic ranking, or any kinds of rating and personal preference.


I don't see a ha'pence worth of difference between ranking and rating. I just used the word "rating" from the other thread. (When I started typing the subject for the OP, I noticed that I'd typed "ranking" at first.)

I have all sorts of personal preferences. I like to think that my favorite ________ is the one I'm listening to right now. But of course I think some things are better than others, even when I'm not listening to them. But I wouldn't make a list of those from best to worst. I just don't think that's useful. It certainly doesn't affect my listening. Or shouldn't. So what if a piece comes in at 97 on some list. Does that mean I would like listening to the number 47 piece fifty units more? What would that even mean?

Anyway, back to one of my original points, I think that rating/ranking things implies that there are universal values that transcend time and genre (so that, for instance, you can compare Wagner's operas to Schubert's string quartets and then award the string quartets a higher mark). And even trying to compare Bartok's piano concerto no. 1 to his no. 3.... They're different. They attempt different things, and they accomplish different things. I enjoy both of them. I like no. 1 more--I play it more often--but that means little of value to anyone but me. And even to myself...!

I think that each piece assumes more importance, is more valuable, the more you can see it as unique. I think you can appreciate it more. And that you know it more intimately if you're not always trying to place it on some sort of scale but simply enjoying it for what it is.

Of course, part of knowing any piece is knowing where it fits in chronologically, both in music history and in its composer's ouevre. And in knowing other pieces that are similar or that it borrows from or that borrow from it. That's all good fun and useful, too. But giving it a rating? Putting it on a ranked, ordered list? Nah. That's leaving the unique characteristics of the piece, the things that make it itself and nothing else, and doing something alien to listening and enjoying.

Anyway, there's just too much good stuff out there. I'd rather just explore.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Da heck with some guy! I wanna start the Olympics of classical music. Every piece in competition with every other piece ever written and recorded. Let's have the gold, silver, and bronze works of classical music. Fagettabout da rest!


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Franz Lehar would win both the gold and the silver for his _Gold and Silver _waltz! :lol: The bronze for the dance category would go to Reinhold Gliere for his ballet_ The Bronze Horsemen_ ...


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Here is some music that I enjoy. 




Abel: Mr. Abel’s Fine Airs (Music for solo viola da gamba)
Adam: Giselle – DVD 
Adams: Gnarly Buttons
Adams: John’s Book of Alleged Dances
Adams: Naïve & Sentimental Music
Adams: Nixon in China
Adams: On the Transmigration of Souls 
Adams: Shaker Loops
Adams: Short Ride in a Fast Machine 
Agricola: Secular Songs
Aho: Symphonic Dances
Aho: Symphony #11
Albeniz: Iberia 
Albeniz: Navarra 
Albeniz: Suite española
Albinoni: Adagio in G minor 
Albinoni: Concerti a cique, op. 9, #2, #6, #9
Albinoni: Concerto for trumpet, 3 oboes and bassoon
Albinonini, 12 concerti op. 7 
Alkan: 12 études dans tous let tons mineurs 
Alkan: Barcarolle
Alkan: Concerto da camera #2
Alkan: Grande Sonate “Les 4 ages”
Alkan: Grandes Etudes
Alkan: Le festin d’Esope
Alkan: Sonatine, op. 61
Alkan: Suite de concert 
Allegri Miserere 
Alnaes: Piano Concerto
Alwyn: Lyra Angelica 
Alwyn: Symphony #2
Alwyn: Symphony #5
Antheil: Ballet Mecanique 
Antheil: Piano Concertos 
Arensky: Piano Trio #1
Arne: Rule Britannia 
Babbit: Piano Concerto 
Bach, C. P. E.: Sonatas & Rondos 
Bach: Art of Fugue
Bach: Brandenburg Concertos 
Bach: Canonic Variations on “Von Himmel hoch, da komm”
Bach: Cantata 004
Bach: Cantata 006 
Bach: Cantata 011
Bach: Cantata 016 
Bach: Cantata 034 
Bach: Cantata 036
Bach: Cantata 037
Bach: Cantata 043 
Bach: Cantata 051
Bach: Cantata 059
Bach: Cantata 061
Bach: Cantata 062
Bach: Cantata 063
Bach: Cantata 064
Bach: Cantata 066 
Bach: Cantata 072 
Bach: Cantata 073 
Bach: Cantata 074
Bach: Cantata 080 
Bach: Cantata 083 
Bach: Cantata 094
Bach: Cantata 098 
Bach: Cantata 105 
Bach: Cantata 106
Bach: Cantata 111 
Bach: Cantata 113
Bach: Cantata 118
Bach: Cantata 121
Bach: Cantata 125 
Bach: Cantata 128
Bach: Cantata 133
Bach: Cantata 139 
Bach: Cantata 140
Bach: Cantata 147
Bach: Cantata 156
Bach: Cantata 168 
Bach: Cantata 172 
Bach: Cantata 179
Bach: Cantata 198
Bach: Cantata 199 
Bach: Cantata 200 
Bach: Cantata 211 Coffee
Bach: Cantata 212 Peasant
Bach: Cello Suites
Bach: Christmas Oratorio
Bach: Clavier-Ubung III
Bach: Concerto BWV 1060 
Bach: Concerto for 2 Violins BWV 1043 
Bach: Concerto for 3 Harpsichords BWV 1064
Bach: English Suite #1
Bach: English Suite #2
Bach: English Suite #3
Bach: English Suite #4
Bach: English Suite #5
Bach: English Suite #6
Bach: French Suite #1
Bach: French Suite #2
Bach: French Suite #3
Bach: French Suite #4
Bach: French Suite #5
Bach: French Suite #6
Bach: Goldberg Variations 
Bach: Liepzig Chorales 
Bach: Magnificat 
Bach: Mass in B minor 
Bach: Motets
Bach: Musical Offering 
Bach: Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach
Bach: Orchestral Suite #4
Bach: Organ Concerto BWV 592
Bach: Organ Concerto BWV 593
Bach: Organ Concerto BWV 594
Bach: Organ Concerto BWV 595
Bach: Organ Concerto BWV 596
Bach: Orgelbuchlein
Bach: Schubler Chorales
Bach: Sonatas with Basso Continuo BWV 1033-1035
Bach: Sonatas with Harpsichord Obbligato, BWV 1030-1032
Bach: St. John Passion
Bach: St. Matthew Passion 
Bach: Violin Concerto #1 BWV 1041 
Bach: Violin Concerto #2 BWV 1042 
Bach: Violin Sonatas and Partitas
Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Balakirev: Piano Concerto #1
Balakirev: Piano Concerto #2 
Bantock: Omar Khayyam 
Barber: Adagio for Strings
Barber: Knoxville Summer of 1915
Barber: Piano Concerto 
Barber: Piano Sonata 
Barber: School for Scandal Overture
Barber: Second Essay for Orchestra 
Barber: Violin Concerto 
Barrios: Guitar Works
Bartók: Bagatelles, SZ 38
Bartók: Burlesques, SZ 47
Bartók: Concerto for 2 Pianos, Percussion & Orchestra
Bartók: Concerto for Orchestra
Bartók: Dirges, SZ 45
Bartók: Divertimento for strings 
Bartók: Easy Pieces fro Piano, SZ 39
Bartók: For Children, SZ 42
Bartók: Hungarian Peasant Songs, SZ 71
Bartók: Improvisations on Hungarian Peasant Songs
Bartók: Little Pieces for Piano SZ 82
Bartók: Microkosmos, Books 1-6 
Bartók: Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta
Bartók: Petite Suite, SZ 105
Bartók: Piano Concerto #1
Bartók: Piano Concerto #2
Bartók: Piano Concerto #3
Bartók: Piano Sonata, SZ 82
Bartók: Romanian Folk Dances, SZ 56
Bartók: Sketches, SZ 44
Bartók: Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion 
Bartók: String Quartet #3
Bartók: Suite for Piano, op. 14, SZ 62
Bartók: Viola Concerto 
Bartók: Violin Concerto #1
Bartók: Violin Concerto #2 
Bax: Tintagel
Beach: Gaelic Symphony
Beach: Piano Concerto 
Beethoven: 6 Variations on a Swiss Song
Beethoven: Bagatelles
Beethoven: Cello Sonata #1
Beethoven: Cello Sonata #2
Beethoven: Cello Sonata #3
Beethoven: Clarinet Trio
Beethoven: Diabelli Variations
Beethoven: Eroica Variations
Beethoven: Fidelio 
Beethoven: Missa Solemnis 
Beethoven: Piano Concerto #1 
Beethoven: Piano Concerto #2 
Beethoven: Piano Concerto #3
Beethoven: Piano Concerto #4 
Beethoven: Piano Concerto #5 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #02
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #03
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #04
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #05
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #06
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #07
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #08 Pathetique 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #10 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #11
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #12
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #13 Fantasia 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #14 Moonlight 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #15 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #16
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #17 Tempest 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #18
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #19 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #20 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #21 Waldstein 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #23 Appassionata 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #25 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #26 Les Adieux 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #27
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #28 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #29 
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #30
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #31
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #32 
Beethoven: Piano Trio #4 Gassenhauer
Beethoven: Piano Trio #5 Ghost
Beethoven: Piano Trio #7 Archduke
Beethoven: String Quartet #01 
Beethoven: String Quartet #02 
Beethoven: String Quartet #03 
Beethoven: String Quartet #04 
Beethoven: String Quartet #05 
Beethoven: String Quartet #06 
Beethoven: String Quartet #07 Raz 1 
Beethoven: String Quartet #08 Raz 2 
Beethoven: String Quartet #09 Raz 3 
Beethoven: String Quartet #10 Harp 
Beethoven: String Quartet #11 Serioso 
Beethoven: String Quartet #12 
Beethoven: String Quartet #13 
Beethoven: String Quartet #14 
Beethoven: String Quartet #15 
Beethoven: String Quartet #16 
Beethoven: Symphony #1 
Beethoven: Symphony #2 
Beethoven: Symphony #3 
Beethoven: Symphony #4 
Beethoven: Symphony #5 
Beethoven: Symphony #6 “Pastoral” 
Beethoven: Symphony #7 
Beethoven: Symphony #8 
Beethoven: Symphony #9 
Beethoven: Triple Concerto
Beethoven: Violin Concerto 
Berg: 3 Pieces for Orchestra 
Berg: 3 Pieces from Lyric Suite
Berg: Altenberg Lieder 
Berg: Altenberg Lieder
Berg: Chamber Concerto
Berg: Lulu Suite
Berg: Lyric Suite 
Berg: String Quartet 
Berg: Variations for Orchestra
Berg: Violin Concerto 
Berg: Wozzeck 
Berio: Folk Songs
Berio: Sinfonia
Berlioz: Beatrice et Benedict Oveture
Berlioz: Harold in Italie 
Berlioz: Le Carnaval Romain Overture
Berlioz: Le Corsaire Overture 
Berlioz: Le Roi Lear Overture
Berlioz: Les Nuits d’Ete
Berlioz: Les Troyens 
Berlioz: Requiem 
Berlioz: Rob Roy Overture
Berlioz: Romeo & Juliet
Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique 
Bernstein: Candide
Bernstein: Prelude, Fugue and Riffs
Bernstein: Serenade after Plato’s Symposium 
Bernstein: Symphony #2 Age of Anxiety 
Bernstein: West Side Story
Berwald: Piano Concerto 
Berwald: Symphony #3
Berwald: Symphony #4
Biber: Battalia a 10
Biber: Requiem a 15 
Biber: Rosary Sonatas
Bizet: Carmen 
Bizet: Carmen Suite
Bizet: Symphony in C 
Bliss: Color Symphony 
Bloch: America: An Epic Rhapsody
Bloch: Baal Shem
Bloch: Schleomo
Bloch: Suite Hebraique 
Boieldieu: Hapr Concerto 
Bolcom: Songs of Innocence and Experience
Borodin: In the Steppes of Central Asia 
Borodin: Prince Igor: Polovtsian March
Borodin: String Quartet #2
Boulez: Dérive 1
Boulez: Dérive 2
Boulez: Dialogue de l’ombre double
Boulez: Le marteau sans maîre 
Boulez: Répons
Bowen: Piano Concerto #3
Bowen: Piano Concerto #4
Brahms: 16 Waltzes, op. 39
Brahms: 2 Rhapsodies
Brahms: 3 Intermezzi, op. 117 
Brahms: 4 Ballades, op. 10
Brahms: 4 Piano Pieces op. 119 
Brahms: 6 Piano Pieces, op. 118 
Brahms: 7 Fantasias, op. 116 
Brahms: 8 Piano Pieces, op. 76
Brahms: Academic Festival Overture 
Brahms: Cello Sonata #1 
Brahms: Cello Sonata #2 
Brahms: Clarinet Quintet 
Brahms: Clarinet Sonata #1 
Brahms: Clarinet Sonata #2 
Brahms: Clarinet Trio 
Brahms: Double Concerto
Brahms: German Requiem 
Brahms: Handel Variations
Brahms: Haydn Variations 
Brahms: Horn Trio
Brahms: Hungarian Dances 
Brahms: Liebeslieder Waltzer, op. 52
Brahms: Neue Liebeslieder Watlzer, op. 65
Brahms: Paganini Variations
Brahms: Piano Concerto #1 
Brahms: Piano Concerto #2
Brahms: Piano Quartet #1
Brahms: Piano Quartet #2
Brahms: Piano Quartet #3
Brahms: Piano Quintet 
Brahms: Piano Sonata #1
Brahms: Piano Sonata #2
Brahms: Piano Sonata #3
Brahms: Piano Trio #1 
Brahms: Piano Trio #2 
Brahms: Piano Trio #3 
Brahms: Piano Trio #4, op. posth
Brahms: Schumann Variations, op. 9
Brahms: Songs 
Brahms: String Quartet #1 
Brahms: String Quartet #2 
Brahms: String Quartet #3 
Brahms: String Sextet #1 
Brahms: String Sextet #2 
Brahms: Symphony #1 
Brahms: Symphony #2 
Brahms: Symphony #3 
Brahms: Symphony #4 
Brahms: Three Quartets, op. 64
Brahms: Variations, op. 21
Brahms: Violin Concerto 
Brahms: Violin Sonata #1 
Brahms: Violin Sonata #2 
Brahms: Violin Sonata #3 
Brian: Symphony #1 Gothic 
Britten: Billy Budd 
Britten: Ceremony of Carols 
Britten: Festival Te Deum
Britten: Four Sea Interludes 
Britten: Hymn to St. Cecillia
Britten: Jubilate Deo
Britten: Missa brevis in D
Britten: Peter Grimes
Britten: Rejoice in the Lamb
Britten: Symphonic Suite from Gloriana
Britten: Symphony for Cello
Britten: Te Deum in C
Britten: Turn of the Screw
Britten: Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge
Britten: War Requiem
Britten: Young Person’s Guide to the Orchestra
Brubeck: The Gates of Justice 
Bruch: Violin Concerto #1 
Bruckner: Symphony #4
Bruckner: Symphony #5
Bruckner: Symphony #7
Bruckner: Symphony #8
Bruckner: Symphony #9
Brüll: Andante & Allegro
Brüll: Piano Concerto #1
Brüll: Piano Concerto #2
Busoni: Piano Concerto 
Buxtehude: Membra Jesu Nostri
Byrd: Ave Verum Corpus
Cage: Sonatas and Interludes for prepared piano 
Canteloube: Chants d’Auvergne (selection)
Carissimi: Jephte 
Carter: Sonata for Flute, Oboe, Cello and Harpsichord 
Castelnuovo-Tedescu: Guitar Concerto #1
Chabrier: Works
Chausson: Concert for piano, violin & string quartet
Chausson: Piano Quartet
Chausson: Poeme de l’amour et de la mer
Chausson: Poeme for Violin & Orchestra 
Chausson: String Quartet 
Chausson: Symphonic Poem on a legend of the Round Table 
Chausson: Symphony in B-flat, op. 20 
Chin: Akrostichon-Wortspiel
Chin: Double Concerto
Chin: Fantasie mécanique
Chin: Xi
Chopin: Ballades
Chopin: Nocturnes
Chopin: Piano Sonata #2 Funeral March 
Chopin: Piano Sonata #3
Chopin: Preludes
Chopin: Waltzes
Copland: Appalachian Spring 
Copland: Billy the Kid
Copland: Clarinet Concerto
Copland: Clarinet Sonata 
Copland: El Salon Mexico 
Copland: Fanfare for the Common Man
Copland: Piano Concerto
Copland: Piano Variations
Copland: Rodeo
Copland: Symphony #3
Corigliano: Etude Fantasy
Corigliano: Red Violin Concerto
Corigliano: Violin Sonata
Crumb: Black Angels
D’Albert: Piano Concerto #2
D’Astorga: Stabat Mater
D’Indy: Jour d’été à la montagne, op. 61
D’Indy: Symphonie sur un chant montagnard ‘Cévenole’, op. 25
Debussy: 12 Etudes pour le piano
Debussy: Cello Sonata 
Debussy: Chansons de Bilitis 
Debussy: Children’s Corner
Debussy: En blanc et noir
Debussy: Flute, Viola Harp Sonata 
Debussy: Images
Debussy: Jeux 
Debussy: La Mer 
Debussy: Le plus que lent
Debussy: Nocturnes 
Debussy: Pelleas et Melisande 
Debussy: Prelude a l’apres-midi d’un faun 
Debussy: Preludes 
Debussy: Songs
Debussy: String Quartet 
Debussy: Suite bergamesque 
Debussy: Syrinx 
Debussy: Violin Sonata 
Decaux: Clair de lune
Delius: 2 Pieces for Small Orchestra
Delius: 3 Small Tone Poems
Delius: A Song Before Sunrise
Delius: Brigg Fair
Delius: Dance Rhapsody #2 
Delius: Florida Suite
Delius: In a Summer Garden
Delius: Intermezzo “Finnimore and Gerda” 
Delius: Irmelin Prelude 
Delius: Koanga: La Calinda 
Delius: Sea Drift 
Delius: Song of Summer
Delius: Walk to the Paradise Garden 
Diamond 
Dittersdorf
Dohnányi: Piano Concerto #1
Dohnányi: Piano Concerto #2
Dowland: Lachrimae
Dukas: Piano Sonata 
Durante: Magnificat
Durufle: Requiem 
Dutilleux: Sur le meme accord
Dvorak: Cello Concerto
Dvorak: Piano Concerto
Dvorak: Piano Quintet #1, op. 5
Dvorak: Piano trio dumka 
Dvorak: Slavonic Dances 
Dvorak: Symphony #7
Dvorak: Symphony #8
Dvorak: Symphony #9
Dvorak: Violin Concerto 
Elgar: Cello Concerto 
Elgar: Cockaigne Overture
Elgar: Dream of Gerontius
Elgar: Enigma Variations
Elgar: In the South (Alassio)
Elgar: Piano Quintet, op. 84
Elgar: Pomp & Circumstance
Elgar: Sea Pictures
Elgar: Serenade, op. 20
Elgar: String Quartet, op. 83
Elgar: Symphony #1
Elgar: Symphony #2 
Elgar: Violin Concerto 
Emmanuel: Chansons Bourguiguonnes
Enescu: Cello Sonatas… 
Enescu: Dixtour
Enescu: Orchestral Suite #2
Enescu: Orchestral Suite #3
Enescu: Romanian Rhapsody #1
Enescu: String Octet 
Enescu: Violin Sonata #3
Falla 7 popular Spanish songs
Falla: El amor brujo
Falla: El sombrero de tres picos 
Falla: Harpsichord Concerto
Falla: Noches en los jardines de Espana 
Fauré: Piano Quartet #1
Fauré: Piano Quartet #2
Fauré: Piano Quintet #1
Fauré: Piano Quintet #2
Fauré: Requiem 
Feldman: Piano Quartet 
Franck: Les Beatitudes
Franck: Piano Quintet
Franck: Symphonic Variations
Franck: Symphony in D minor 
Franck: Violin Sonata 
Gabrieli: Feast of San Rocco 
Gershwin: An American in Paris 
Gershwin: Piano Concerto
Gershwin: Porgy & Bess 
Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue 
Glass: Aguas da Amazonia
Glass: Dracula
Glass: Einstein on the Beach 
Glass: String Quartet #1
Glass: String Quartet #2
Glass: String Quartet #3
Glass: String Quartet #4
Glass: String Quartet #5
Glazunov: Piano Concerto #1
Glazunov: Piano Concerto #2 
Glazunov: The Seasons
Glazunov: Violin Concerto
Gliere: Symphony #3 
Gluck: Alessandro
Gluck: Iphigenie en Tauride
Gluck: Les Chinoises
Goetz: Piano Concerto #2 
Golijov: Ainadamar
Golijov: Ayre
Golijov: Dreams and Prayers of Isaac the Blind 
Golijov: La Pasion segun San Marcos
Golijov: Oceana 
Golijov: Yiddishbbuk
Golijov: Youth Without Youth
Gorecki: String Quartet #1
Gorecki: String Quartet #2
Gorecki: Symphony #3
Granados: 12 Danzas Españolas
Granados: Goyescas
Grieg: 6 Songs, op. 48
Grieg: Haughtussa, op. 67
Grieg: Lyric Pieces
Grieg: Peer Gynt 
Grieg: Peer Gynt Suite
Grieg: Piano Concerto 
Grieg: String Quartet
Grofé: Grand Canyon Suite
Gubaidulina: Hommage a T. S. Eliot 
Gubaidulina: Offertorium
Guerrero: Battle Mass
Handel: Aria #1 for wind ensemble
Handel: Aria #2 for wind ensemble
Handel: Concerti Grossi op. 6
Handel: Concerto a due cori #1
Handel: Concerto a due cori #2
Handel: Concerto a due cori #3
Handel: Coronation Anthems
Handel: Harp Concerto, op. 4.6
Handel: Harpsichord Suite #5
Handel: Julius Caesar
Handel: Messiah 
Handel: Royal Fireworks Music
Handel: Saul 
Handel: Suites for Keyboard 
Handel: The Alchemyst
Handel: Variations for Harp
Handel: Water Music
Handel: Zadok the Priest
Harbison: Mirabai Songs
Harrison: Piano Concerto
Harrison: Suite for Violin, Piano & Small Orchestra
Haydn: Cello Concerto op. 101 
Haydn: Creation 
Haydn: Mass “Lord Nelson”
Haydn: Mass in Time of War
Haydn: Seven Last Words of Jesus Christ, op. 51
Haydn: String Quartets op. 20
Haydn: String Quartets op. 33 
Haydn: String Quartets, op. 76
Haydn: String Quartets, op. 77
Haydn: Symphony #082
Haydn: Symphony #083 
Haydn: Symphony #084
Haydn: Symphony #085
Haydn: Symphony #086
Haydn: Symphony #087
Haydn: Symphony #093
Haydn: Symphony #094
Haydn: Symphony #095
Haydn: Symphony #096
Haydn: Symphony #097
Haydn: Symphony #098
Haydn: Symphony #099
Haydn: Symphony #100
Haydn: Symphony #101 
Haydn: Symphony #102
Haydn: Symphony #103
Haydn: Symphony #104


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Heinichen: Concertos
Henze: 5 Night-Pieces 
Henze: Violin Concerto #1
Henze: Violin Concerto #3
Hindemith: Ballet Overture “Amor und Psyche” 
Hindemith: Concerto for Orchestra
Hindemith: Die Harmonie der Welt 
Hindemith: Eine Kammermusik 
Hindemith: Konzertmusik, op. 49
Hindemith: Mathis der Maler 
Hindemith: Symphonic Danzes
Hindemith: Symphonic Metamorphosis of Themes by Carl Maria von Weber
Hindemith: The 4 Temperaments
Hindemith: Violin Sonata 
Hindemith: When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom’d 
Holst: The Planets 
Honneger: Symphony 5 
Hovhaness: Symphony #2 Mysterious Mountain
Ireland: London Overture 
Ives: Central Park in the Dark
Ives: Concord Sonata 
Ives: General William Booth Enters into Heaven
Ives: Gong on the Hook and Ladder or Firemen’s Parade on Main Street
Ives: Halowe’en 
Ives: Holidays Symphony
Ives: Hymn: Largo Cantabile
Ives: Symphony #1
Ives: Symphony #4
Ives: Three Places in New England
Ives: Tone Roads no. 1
Ives: Unanswered Question
Ives: Variations on America 
Janacek: Capriccio
Janacek: Concertino 
Janacek: Cunning Little Vixen 
Janacek: From the House of the Dead
Janacek: Glagolitic Mass 
Janacek: In the Mists 
Janacek: On an Overgrown Path 
Janacek: Piano Sonata 1.X. 1905 “From the Street” 
Janacek: Sinfonietta 
Janacek: Tagebuch eines Verschollenen
Jongen: Symphonie Concertante
Josquin: Missa l’homme armé sexti toni 
Josquin: Missa l’homme armé super voces musicales
Josquin: Missa La Sol Fa Re Mi
Josquin: Missa Pange Lingua
Kabalevsky: The Comedians
Khachaturian: Masquerade Suite
Khachaturian: Violin Concerto
Kodaly: Hary Janos Suite
Kodaly: Marosszeker Tanze
Kodaly: Psalmus hungaricus 
Kodaly: Tanze aus Galanta
Korngold: Violin Concerto 
Kreisler: Liebesfreud, Liebeslied, etc.
Lalo: Cello Concerto
Lalo: Symphonie Espagnole
Leyendecker: Symphony #3
Leyendecker: Violin Concerto 
Liapunov: Rhapsody on Ukranian Themes
Ligeti: Andante and Allegretto for String Quartet
Ligeti: Balada si joc
Ligeti: Cello Concerto
Ligeti: Etudes for Piano
Ligeti: Hommage a Hilding Rosenberg
Ligeti: Le Grand macabre 
Ligeti: Lux aeterna 
Ligeti: Musica ricercata
Ligeti: Piano Concerto
Ligeti: Piano Etudes, Book 1
Ligeti: Piano Etudes, Book 2
Ligeti: String Quartet #1
Ligeti: String Quartet #2 
Ligeti: Violin Concerto
Ligeti: White on White
Liszt: Concerto pathetique in E minor
Liszt: Fantasy on a Theme from Beethoven’s “The Ruins of Athens”
Liszt: Fantasy on Hungarian Folk Tunes
Liszt: Faust Symphony 
Liszt: Hungarian Rhapsodies 
Liszt: Malediction
Liszt: Mazeppa
Liszt: Mephisto Waltz #1
Liszt: Nuages Gris
Liszt: Piano Concerto #1 
Liszt: Piano Concerto #2
Liszt: Piano Sonata in B minor 
Liszt: Preludes
Liszt: Totentanz
Liszt: Transcriptions of Beethoven’s Symphonies 
Litolff: Concerto Symphonique #2
Litolff: Concerto Symphonique #3
Lutoslawski: Variations on a theme by Paganini
MacDowell: Piano Concerto #2
Machaut: La Lai de la Fonteinne
Machaut: Messe de Notre Dame
Mahler: Das Knaben Wunderhorn 
Mahler: Das Lied von Erde
Mahler: Kindertotenlieder 
Mahler: Lieder eines fahrended Gesellen
Mahler: Ruckert Lieder 
Mahler: Symphony #01 
Mahler: Symphony #02 
Mahler: Symphony #03
Mahler: Symphony #04 
Mahler: Symphony #05 
Mahler: Symphony #06
Mahler: Symphony #07
Mahler: Symphony #08 
Mahler: Symphony #09
Mahler: Symphony #10 
Mahler: Symphony #10
Martin: 6 Monologe aus “Jedermann”
Martin: Ariel Choruses 
Martin: Mass for double choir
Martin: Petite symphonie concertante
Martin: Polyptyque
Martin: Quatre pieces breves 
Martinu: Double Concerto 
Martinu: Epic of Gilgamesh
Martinu: Symphony #1
Maw: Violin Concerto 
Mayr: Piano Concerto #1
Medtner: Piano Concerto #2 
Medtner: Piano Concerto #3 
Mendelssohn: Capriccio Brillant, op. 22 
Mendelssohn: Concerto for 2 Pianos in A
Mendelssohn: Concerto for 2 pianos in E
Mendelssohn: Fingal’s Cave (The Hebrides)
Mendelssohn: Hebrides Oveture
Mendelssohn: Midsummer Night’s Dream
Mendelssohn: Octet 
Mendelssohn: Piano Concerto #1
Mendelssohn: Piano Concerto #2
Mendelssohn: Piano Concerto #2
Mendelssohn: Piano Quartet #1
Mendelssohn: Piano Sextet, op. 110
Mendelssohn: Piano Sonata #1
Mendelssohn: Piano Trio #1
Mendelssohn: Piano Trio #2
Mendelssohn: Prelude & Fugue in E minor, op. 35.1
Mendelssohn: Rondo Brillant, op. 29
Mendelssohn: Rondo capriccioso in E, op. 14
Mendelssohn: Serenade and Allegro giocoso, op. 43 
Mendelssohn: Songs Without Words
Mendelssohn: String Quartet #2
Mendelssohn: String Quartet #6
Mendelssohn: String Quintet #2
Mendelssohn: Symphony #3 Scottish
Mendelssohn: Symphony #4 Italian 
Mendelssohn: Symphony #5 Reformation
Mendelssohn: Variations serieuses
Mendelssohn: Violin Concerto 
Menotti: What a curse for a woman is a timid man
Messiaen: 20 Regard sur l’enfant Jesus 
Messiaen: Catalogue d’oiseaux 
Messiaen: Chronochromie
Messiaen: Eclairs sur l’au dela 
Messiaen: Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum
Messiaen: La fauvette des jardins
Messiaen: La Ville d’en haut
Messiaen: Quartet for the End of Time 
Messiaen: Theme & Variations
Messiaen: Turangalila Symphony
Meyer: Violin Concerto 
Milhaud: Clarinet Sonata
Milhaud: Creation du monde 
Milhaud: Saudades do Brazil
Milhaud: Scaramouche
Milhaud: Service Sacre
Monteverdi: L’Orfeo 
Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 4
Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 5
Monteverdi: Vespers 
Moskowski: Piano Concerto
Mozart: Andante & Variations
Mozart: Ave Verum Corpus 
Mozart: Clarinet Concerto 
Mozart: Clarinet Quintet 
Mozart: Coronation Mass in C
Mozart: Don Giovanni
Mozart: Eine Kleine Nachtmusik
Mozart: Exsultate, jubilate
Mozart: Haydn Quartets 
Mozart: Horn Concerto #1
Mozart: Horn Concerto #2
Mozart: Horn Concerto #3
Mozart: Horn Concerto #4
Mozart: Horn Quintet
Mozart: Magic Flute 
Mozart: Piano Concerto #06
Mozart: Piano Concerto #12
Mozart: Piano Concerto #15
Mozart: Piano Concerto #17
Mozart: Piano Concerto #20
Mozart: Piano Concerto #21 
Mozart: Piano Concerto #23
Mozart: Piano Concerto #24 
Mozart: Piano Concerto #25
Mozart: Piano Sonata #01 in C, K 279
Mozart: Piano Sonata #02 in F, K 280
Mozart: Piano Sonata #03 in B flat, K 281
Mozart: Piano Sonata #04 in E flat, K 282
Mozart: Piano Sonata #05 in G, K 283
Mozart: Piano Sonata #06 in D, K 284
Mozart: Piano Sonata #07 in C, K 309
Mozart: Piano Sonata #08 in A minor, K 310
Mozart: Piano Sonata #09 in D, K 311
Mozart: Piano Sonata #10 in C, K 330
Mozart: Piano Sonata #11 in A, K 331
Mozart: Piano Sonata #12 in F, K 332
Mozart: Piano Sonata #13 in B flat, K 333
Mozart: Piano Sonata #14 in C minor, K 457 
Mozart: Piano Sonata #15 in F, K 533/494
Mozart: Piano Sonata #16 in C, K 545
Mozart: Piano Sonata #17 in B flat, K 570 
Mozart: Piano Sonata #18 in D, K 576
Mozart: Requiem 
Mozart: Sinfonia Concertante 
Mozart: Symphony #40
Mozart: Symphony #41
Mozart: Theme, Variations and Rondo Pastorale
Mozart: Vesperae solennes de confessore
Mozart: Violin Concerto #1 
Mozart: Violin Concerto #2 
Mozart: Violin Concerto #3 
Mozart: Violin Concerto #4 
Mozart: Violin Concerto #5 “Turkish” 
Mozart: Violin Sonata #18, K 301 
Mozart: Violin Sonata #19 K 302
Mozart: Violin Sonata #20 K 303 
Mozart: Violin Sonata #21 K 304
Mozart: Violin Sonata #22 K 305 
Mozart: Violin Sonata #32 K 454 
Mozart: Violin Sonata #33 K 481 
Mozart: Violin Sonata #35 K 526 
Mussorgsky: Boris Godunov 
Mussorgsky: Night on Bald Mountain 
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition 
Mussorgsky: Songs and Dances of Death
Mussorgsky: Sunless 
Myakovsky: Cello Concerto
Nicolai: The Merry Wives of Windsor Oveture
Nielsen: Alladin
Nielsen: At the Bier of a Young Artist
Nielsen: Hymnus Amoris 
Nielsen: Little Suite for Strings
Nielsen: Symphony #1
Nielsen: Symphony #2
Nielsen: Symphony #3
Nielsen: Symphony #5
Nielsen: Symphony #6
Nono: Intolleranza 
Norgard: Symphony 3 
Offenbach: Gaite parisienne
Offenbach: The Tales of Hoffman
Orff: Carmina burana 
Ostertag: All the Rage
Paderweski: Piano Concerto
Paganini: 24 Caprices 
Paganini: Violin Concerto #1
Palestrina: Hodie beata virgo Maria
Palestrina: Lamentationem zum Karsamstag
Palestrina: Litaniae de Beata Virgine Maria a 8
Palestrina: Magnificat a 8
Palestrina: Missa Papae Marcelli 
Palestrina: Senex puerum portabat
Palestrina: Stabat Mater
Palestrina: Tue s Petrus
Parry: Piano Concerto
Part: Te Deum 
Partch: Delusion of a Fury 
Partch: US Highball 
Pendereck: St. Luke Passion
Penderecki: Cello Concerto #1
Penderecki: Cello Concerto #2
Penderecki: Flute Concerto
Penderecki: Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima 
Penderecki: Viola Concerto 
Penderecki: Violin Concerto #2
Pergolesi: Confiteor tibi Domine
Pergolesi: Stabat Mater
Pierné: Fantasie-Ballet, op. 6
Pierné: Piano Concerto, op. 12 
Pierné: Poëme symphonique, op. 37
Pierné: Scherzo-Caprice, op. 25
Play of Daniel 
Poulenc: Concert Champetre
Poulenc: Double Piano Concerto
Poulenc: Gloria 
Poulenc: Organ Concerto 
Poulenc: Stabat Mater
Previn: Violin Concerto “Anne-Sophie”
Prokofiev: Alexander Nevsky 
Prokofiev: Flute Sonata
Prokofiev: Ivan the Terrible
Prokofiev: Liutenant Kije
Prokofiev: Love for Three Oranges
Prokofiev: Overture on Hebrew Themes
Prokofiev: Peter and the Wolf 
Prokofiev: Piano Concerto #2 
Prokofiev: Piano Concerto #3
Prokofiev: Piano Concerto #4
Prokofiev: Piano Sonata #6
Prokofiev: Piano Sonata #7
Prokofiev: Romeo and Juliet 
Prokofiev: Scythian Suite
Prokofiev: Sinfonia concertante 
Prokofiev: Symphony #1
Prokofiev: Symphony #5
Prokofiev: Symphony #7 
Prokofiev: Toccata, op. 11 
Prokofiev: Violin Concerto #1
Prokofiev: Violin Concerto #2 
Prokofiev: War and Peace
Puccini: La Boheme 
Purcell: Dido and Aeneas 
Purcell: Fairy Queen
Rachmaninoff: Piano Concerto #4
Rachmaninov: Études-tableaux, op. 33
Rachmaninov: Études-tableaux, op. 39
Rachmaninov: Isle of the Dead 
Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto #1
Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto #2 
Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto #3 
Rachmaninov: Piano Sonata #2 
Rachmaninov: Piano Trio Elegiaque #1 
Rachmaninov: Piano Trio Elegiaque #2
Rachmaninov: Prelude, op. 3.2
Rachmaninov: Preludes, op. 23
Rachmaninov: Preludes, op. 32
Rachmaninov: Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini 
Rachmaninov: Suite #2 for 2 pianos
Rachmaninov: Symphonic Dances 
Rachmaninov: Symphony #1
Rachmaninov: Symphony #2
Rachmaninov: Symphony #3
Rachmaninov: The Bells
Rachmaninov: Vespers
Rachmaninov: Vocalise 
Raff: Ode to Spring
Rameau: Les Indes Galantes: Symphonies
Rautavara: Cantus articuls
Ravel: 5 Melodies populaires grecques
Ravel: À la manière de Borodin
Ravel: À la manière de Chabrier
Ravel: Boléro 
Ravel: Chansons madecasses 
Ravel: Daphnis et Chloe
Ravel: Daphnis et Chloe Suite #2
Ravel: Fanfaire du ballet “L’Eventail de Jeanne” 
Ravel: Gaspard de la nuit 
Ravel: Introduction and Allegro 
Ravel: Jeux d’eau 
Ravel: La Valse 
Ravel: Le Tombeau de Couperin 
Ravel: Ma mere l’Oye
Ravel: Menuet antique
Ravel: Miroirs
Ravel: Miroirs: Une Barque sur l’océan
Ravel: Mother Goose Suite / Ma Mere L’Oye 
Ravel: Pavanne pour une infant defunte 
Ravel: Piano Concerto in G
Ravel: Piano Trio
Ravel: Prélude
Ravel: Rapsodie espagnole 
Ravel: Shéhérazade 
Ravel: Sonatine 
Ravel: String Quartet
Ravel: Three Poems by Mallarme 
Ravel: Valses nobles et sentimentales 
Ravel: Violin Sonata 
Rebel: Les Elemens 
Reger: Variations and Fugue on a Theme of JS Bach
Reich: 8 Lines, City Life 
Reich: Different Trains
Reich: Music for 18 Musicians 
Reimann: Lear 
Reinecke: Piano Concerto #1
Reubke: Sonata for Organ 
Rheinberger: Piano Concerto
Rihm: Deus Passus
Rihm: Time Chant 
Riley: In C
Riley: Rainbow in Curved Air
Riley: Salome Dances for Peace 
Rimsky-Korsakov: Capriccio Espagnol 
Rimsky-Korsakov: Piano Concerto
Rimsky-Korsakov: Russian Easter Festival Overture
Rimsky-Korsakov: Scheherazade
Rochberg: String Quartets 
Roderigo: Concierto de Aranjuez
Roderigo: Fantasia para un gentilhombre
Rodrigo: Sones en la Giralda
Rossini-Respighi: La boutique fantastique
Rossini: Barber of Seville 
Rossini: Messe Solennelle
Rossini: Overtures 
Rossini: Sins of My Old Age 
Rossini: Stabat Mater 
Roussel: Piano Concerto
Rubinstein: Piano Concerto #4
Ruggles: Sun-Treader 
Ryu: Sinfonia da Requeim
Ryu: Violin Concerto #1
Rzewski: The People United Will Never Be Defeated
Saint-Saëns: Africa
Saint-Saëns: Allegro appassionato
Saint-Saëns: Bassoon Sonata
Saint-Saëns: Caprice sur des airs danois et russes
Saint-Saëns: Carnival of the Animals 
Saint-Saëns: Cello Concerto 
Saint-Saëns: Cello Sonata #1
Saint-Saëns: Cello Sonata #2
Saint-Saëns: Clarinet Sonata
Saint-Saëns: Introduction & Rondo capriccioso in A minor, op. 28
Saint-Saëns: Le Cygne (from Carnaval des Animaux, transcribed for cello and piano) 
Saint-Saens: Morceau de concert in G, op. 154
Saint-Saëns: Oboe Sonata, op. 106
Saint-Saëns: Piano Concerto #1
Saint-Saëns: Piano Concerto #2
Saint-Saëns: Piano Concerto #3
Saint-Saëns: Piano Concerto #4
Saint-Saëns: Piano Concerto #5 “Egyptian”
Saint-Saëns: Piano Quartet, op. 41
Saint-Saëns: Piano Quintet, op. 14
Saint-Saëns: Piano Trio #1
Saint-Saëns: Piano Trio #2
Saint-Saëns: Psaume 18, Coeli enarrant
Saint-Saëns: Requiem
Saint-Saëns: Rhapsodie d’Auvergne
Saint-Saëns: Septet, op. 65
Saint-Saëns: Symphony #3 Organ 
Saint-Saëns: Tarantella, op. 6
Saint-Saëns: Violin Concerto #3
Saint-Saëns: Wedding Cake, op. 76
Satie: Gymnopedia
Sauer: Piano Concerto #1
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 001 
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 008
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 009 
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 011
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 013
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 014
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 020
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 025
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 027
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 033
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 038
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 039
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 052
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 054
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 087
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 096
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 098
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 103
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 114
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 119
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 135
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 141
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 146
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 159
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 162
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 197
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 198
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 201
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 208
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 213
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 260
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 296
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 297
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 298
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 299
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 303
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 319
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 380 
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 450
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 460
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 461
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 466
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 474
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 478
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 479
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 481
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 487
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 490
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 491 
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 492
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 502
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 516
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 517
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 518
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 519
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 525
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 529 
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 544
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 545
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 546
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 547 
Scarlatti, D.: Sonata K 555
Scharwenka: Piano Concerto #4
Schinittke: Stille Musik
Schnittke: Cello Concerto
Schnittke: Cello Sonata
Schnittke: Piano Quintet
Schnittke: String Trio
Schnittke: Viola Concerto
Schoenberg: 5 Pieces for Orchestra 
Schoenberg: 6 Little Piano Pieces 
Schoenberg: Gurrelieder 
Schoenberg: Moses und Aron 
Schoenberg: Pelleas und Melisande 
Schoenberg: Phantasy for Violin with Piano Accompaniment 
Schoenberg: Pierrot Lunaire 
Schoenberg: Scherzo for String Quartet 
Schoenberg: String Quartet #1
Schoenberg: String Quartet #2
Schoenberg: String Quartet #4
Schoenberg: String Quartet 3#
Schoenberg: String Quartet in D
Schoenberg: String Trio
Schoenberg: Survivor from Warsaw 
Schoenberg: Variations op. 31
Schoenberg: Verklarte Nacht 
Schoenberg: Violin Concerto
Schubert: 4 Impromptus D899 
Schubert: 4 Impromptus D935
Schubert: Arpeggione Sonata
Schubert: Die Schone Mullerin
Schubert: Fantasia for piano 4-hands 
Schubert: Goethe Lieder
Schubert: Mass #4
Schubert: Mass #5
Schubert: Mass #6
Schubert: Moments Musicaux
Schubert: Notturno in E flat op. 148
Schubert: Piano Quintet “Trout”
Schubert: Piano Sonata #04
Schubert: Piano Sonata #07
Schubert: Piano Sonata #09
Schubert: Piano Sonata #13
Schubert: Piano Sonata #14
Schubert: Piano Sonata #15
Schubert: Piano Sonata #16


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Schubert: Piano Sonata #17
Schubert: Piano Sonata #18
Schubert: Piano Sonata #19 
Schubert: Piano Sonata #20 
Schubert: Piano Sonata #21 
Schubert: Piano trio "sonata" movement in B flat 
Schubert: Piano Trio #1
Schubert: Piano Trio #2
Schubert: Schwanengesang 
Schubert: String Quartet #12
Schubert: String Quartet #13
Schubert: String Quartet #14
Schubert: String Quartet #15
Schubert: String Quintet 
Schubert: Symphony #5 
Schubert: Symphony #8 
Schubert: Symphony #9 
Schubert: Wanderer-Fantasie 
Schubert: Winterreise 
Schubert/Liszt: Wanderer-Fantasy
Schumann: 5 Stucke im Volkston
Schumann: Carnaval
Schumann: Cello Concerto
Schumann: Dichterliebe
Schumann: Fantasie
Schumann: Frauenliebe und - Leben 
Schumann: Introduction & Allegro appassionata
Schumann: Kreisleriana
Schumann: Piano Concerto
Schumann: Piano Quintet 
Schumann: Symphony #4
Schumann: Violin Concerto
Schutz: Aaul, was verfolgst du mich
Schutz: Christmas Oratorio 
Schutz: O bone Jesu, fili Mariae
Scriabin: 4 Morceaux
Scriabin: Piano Concerto
Scriabin: Piano Sonata #01
Scriabin: Piano Sonata #02 
Scriabin: Piano Sonata #03
Scriabin: Piano Sonata #04
Scriabin: Piano Sonata #05
Scriabin: Piano Sonata #06
Scriabin: Piano Sonata #07
Scriabin: Piano Sonata #08
Scriabin: Piano Sonata #09
Scriabin: Piano Sonata #10
Scriabin: Poem of Ecstasy 
Scriabin: Prometheus 
Scriabin: Reverie
Scriabin: Symphony #1
Scriabin: Symphony #2
Scriabin: Symphony #3
Shchedrin: Carmen Suite
Shchedrin: Concerto for Orchestra #1
Shchedrin: Concerto for Orchestra #2
Sheppard: Via media 
Shostakovich: 24 Preludes & Fugues 
Shostakovich: Cello Concerto #1 
Shostakovich: Cello Concerto #2
Shostakovich: Cello Sonata op. 40
Shostakovich: Concertino for 2 Pianos
Shostakovich: Jazz Suite #1
Shostakovich: Jazz Suite #2
Shostakovich: Lyric Waltz
Shostakovich: Piano Concerto #1 
Shostakovich: Piano Concerto #2
Shostakovich: Piano Quintet
Shostakovich: Piano Trio #2 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #01 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #02 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #03 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #04 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #05 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #06 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #07 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #08 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #09 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #10 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #11 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #12 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #13 
Shostakovich: String Quartet #14
Shostakovich: String Quartet #15
Shostakovich: Symphony #01
Shostakovich: Symphony #05
Shostakovich: Symphony #07 Leningrad 
Shostakovich: Symphony #08
Shostakovich: Symphony #09
Shostakovich: Symphony #10 
Shostakovich: Symphony #11
Shostakovich: Symphony #13 Babi Yar 
Shostakovich: Symphony #14
Shostakovich: Symphony #15
Shostakovich: Tahiti Trot (Tea for Two)
Shostakovich: Violin Concerto #1 
Shostakovich: Violin Concerto #2
Sibelius: Finlandia 
Sibelius: Karelia Suite, op. 11
Sibelius: Kullervo, op. 7
Sibelius: Pelleas et Mellisande
Sibelius: Scènes historiques - Suite #1, op. 25
Sibelius: Serenades 
Sibelius: Swan of Tuonela
Sibelius: Symphony #1
Sibelius: Symphony #2
Sibelius: Symphony #4 
Sibelius: Symphony #5 
Sibelius: Symphony #7 
Sibelius: Tapiola 
Sibelius: The Oceanides, op. 73
Sibelius: Violin Concerto 
Sibelius: Voces Intimae
Sinding: Piano Concerto 
Smetana: Bartered Bride 
Smetana: Ma Vlast
Spohr: Violin Concerto #8
Stamitz: Clarinet Concerto #10
Stamitz: Clarinet Concerto #11
Stamitz: Clarinet Concerto #7
Stamitz: Clarinet Concerto #8
Stanford: Clarinet Sonata
Stanford: Fantasy #1
Stanford: Fantasy #2
Stanford: Intermezzi
Stanford: Piano Concerto #1, op. 59
Stanford: Piano Trio #3
Steffani: Stabat Mater
Stockhausen: Gesang der Junglinge 
Stockhausen: Hymnen
Stockhausen: Stimmung 
Stojowski: Piano Concerto #1
Stojowski: Piano Concerto #2
Strauss, J.: Emperor Waltz
Strauss, J.: Morning Papers
Strauss, J.: On the Beautiful Blue Danube
Strauss, J.: Vienna Blood
Strauss, R.: 4 Last Songs 
Strauss, R.: 4 Symphonic Interludes
Strauss, R.: A Hero's Life
Strauss, R.: Capriccio
Strauss, R.: Death and Transfiguration
Strauss, R.: Electra 
Strauss, R.: Metamorphosen 
Strauss, R.: Rosenkavalier 
Strauss, R.: Rosenkavalier Suite
Strauss, R.: Rosenkavalier Waltzes
Strauss, R.: Salome 
Strauss, R.: Thus Spake Zarathustra 
Strauss, R.: Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks
Stravinsky: 8 Instrumental Miniatures
Stravinsky: Agon
Stravinsky: Canticum Sacrum 
Stravinsky: Chamber Concerto "Dumbarton Oaks"
Stravinsky: Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments 
Stravinsky: Conctero in D "Basel"
Stravinsky: Ebony Concerto
Stravinsky: Fireworks 
Stravinsky: L'Histoire du soldat
Stravinsky: Le Chant du Rossignol
Stravinsky: Les Noces 
Stravinsky: Lulcinella 
Stravinsky: No Word from Tom
Stravinsky: Octet for Wind Instruments 
Stravinsky: Oedipus Rex 
Stravinsky: Petrushka 
Stravinsky: Rake's Progress
Stravinsky: Sacre du Printemps 
Stravinsky: Symphony in C
Stravinsky: Symphony in Three Movements 
Stravinsky: Symphony of Psalms 
Stravinsky: The Firebird / L'Oiseau de feu 
Stravinsky: The Rake's Progress 
Stravinsky: Three Movements from Petrushka
Stravinsky: Threni
Stravinsky: Violin Concerto 
Symanowski: Symphony #3
Szymanowski: Litania do Marii Panny
Szymanowski: Myths, op. 30
Szymanowski: Stabat mater 
Szymanowski/Kochanski: Piesn Kurpiowska
Szymanowski/Kochanski: Piesn Roksany 
Tailleferre: Concertino for harp
Takemitsu: A Flock Descends into the Pentagonal Garden 
Takemitsu: To the Edge of a Dram 
Tallis: Lamentations of Jeremiah 
Tallis: Spem in Alium 
Tartini: Violin Sonata BA16
Tartini: Violin Sonata BA4
Tartini: Violin Sonata BBb1
Tartini: Violin Sonata BBb12
Tartini: Violin Sonata Bc2
Tartini: Violin Sonata BD19
Tartini: Violin Sonata BF4
Tartini: Violin Sonata BF9
Tartini: Violin Sonata Bg10 Didone Abbandonata
Tartini: Violin Sonata Bg5
Tartini: Violin Sonata Bg5 Devil's Trill
Tchaikovksy: String Quartet #1
Tchaikovsky: 1812 Overture 
Tchaikovsky: 6 Piano Pieces
Tchaikovsky: Capriccio italien 
Tchaikovsky: Concert Fantasy
Tchaikovsky: Danish Anthem Festival Overture
Tchaikovsky: Fate
Tchaikovsky: Francesca da Rimini
Tchaikovsky: Hamlet
Tchaikovsky: Manfred Symphony
Tchaikovsky: March Slave
Tchaikovsky: Nutcracker 
Tchaikovsky: Nutcracker Suite
Tchaikovsky: Piano Concerto #1 
Tchaikovsky: Piano Concerto #3
Tchaikovsky: Piano Trio
Tchaikovsky: Romeo and Juliet 
Tchaikovsky: Serenade for Strings, op. 48
Tchaikovsky: Sleeping Beauty Suite
Tchaikovsky: Souvenir de Florence, op. 70
Tchaikovsky: Swan Lake Suite
Tchaikovsky: Symphony #1
Tchaikovsky: Symphony #2 Little Russian
Tchaikovsky: Symphony #3 Polish
Tchaikovsky: Symphony #4 
Tchaikovsky: Symphony #5 
Tchaikovsky: Symphony #6 
Tchaikovsky: Tempest
Tchaikovsky: Violin Concerto 
Tchaikovsky: Voyevoda
Tchaikovsky/Tanayev: Piano Concerto #3
Telemann: Oboe Sonata in E minor
Telemann: Tafelmusik
Thalberg: Piano Concerto
Tippett: Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli
Tippett: Symphony #2 
Torroba: Madroños
Tower: Made in America
Tsontakis: Ghost Variations
Varese: Ameriqes 
Varese: Dance for Burgess
Varese: Density 21.5 
Varese: Ecuatorial
Varese: Hyperprism
Varese: Integrales 
Varese: Ionization 
Varese: Nocturnal
Varese: Octandre
Varese: Offrandes
Varese: Tuning Up
Varese: Un grand sommeil noir
Vasks: String Quartet #4 - Kronos
Vaughan Williams: 10 Blake Songs
Vaughan Williams: 4 Hymns 
Vaughan Williams: 4 Poems by Fredegond Shrove (excerpts) 
Vaughan Williams: 5 Mystical Songs
Vaughan Williams: 5 Variants of Dives & Lazarus
Vaughan Williams: A London Symphony 
Vaughan Williams: A Sea Symphony 
Vaughan Williams: Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis 
Vaughan Williams: Fantasia on Christmas Carols
Vaughan Williams: Fantasia on Greensleeves 
Vaughan Williams: Flos Campi
Vaughan Williams: Lark Ascending 
Vaughan Williams: Merciless Beauty
Vaughan Williams: On Wenlock Edge
Vaughan Williams: Serenade to Music
Vaughan Williams: Symphony #2 London
Vaughan Williams: Symphony #5
Verd: Ave Maria from Otello
Verdi: Aida
Verdi: Ave Maria (1880)
Verdi: Ave Maria (1889) 
Verdi: Falstaff 
Verdi: Il Trovatore 
Verdi: La Traviata 
Verdi: Laudi alla Vergine Maria
Verdi: Libera me, Domine from Messe per Rossini
Verdi: Otello
Verdi: Requiem 
Verdi: Rigoletto
Verdi: Stabat Mater
Verdi: Te Deum
Victoria: Requiem
Vierne: Carillion 
Vieuxtemps: Violin Concerto #5 "Gretry"
Villa-Lobos: Bachianas brazileiras
Villa-Lobos: Guitar Concerto
Vitali: Chaconne in G minor
Vivaldi: Four Seasons 
Vivaldi: Gloria
Vivaldi: Violin Concerto RV 190
Vivaldi: Violin Concerto RV 217
Vivaldi: Violin Concerto RV 303
Vivaldi: Violin Concerto RV 325
Vivaldi: Violin Concerto RV 331
Von Bronsart: Piano Concerto, op. 10
Wagner: Die fliegende Holländer Oveture
Wagner: Die Meistersinger
Wagner: Lohengrin 
Wagner: Parsifal 
Wagner: Siegfried-Idyll
Wagner: Tannhauser
Wagner: Tannhauser Overture 
Wagner: The Ring 
Wagner: Tristan und Isolde 
Walton: Cello Concerto
Walton: Sinfonia Concertante (1927)
Walton: Symphony #1
Walton: Viola Concerto
Walton: Violin Concerto 
Weber: Der Freischutz
Weber: Der Freischütz Overture
Weber: Fantasia Variations
Weber: Invitation to the Dance
Weber: Overtures 
Weber/Liszt: Polonaise brillante
Webern: 5 Movements for String Quartet 
Webern: 6 Bagatelles for String Quartet 
Webern: 6 Pieces for Orchestra
Webern: Passacaglia 
Webern: String Quartet, op. 28
Webern: String Quintet
Webern: Symphony - Karajan 
Webern: Variations (op. 27)
Weill: Berliner Requiem 
Weill: Death in the Forest 
Weill: Die Dreigroschenoper
Weill: Happy End
Weill: Mahagonny Songspeil
Weill: The Protagonist 
Weill: Violin Concerto
Weiss: Lute Sonatas
Widor: Symphony #5
Wieniawski: Violin Concerto
Wolf: Italian Liederbuch 
Xenakis: Metastasis 
Yun: Exemplum in memoriam Kwangju
Yun: Naui Dang, Naui Minjokiyo
Yun: Symphony #1
Yun: Symphony #2
Yun: Symphony #3
Yun: Symphony #4
Yun: Symphony #5
Zwilich: Symphony #1

Wow. No Ysaye, Zelenka or Zemlinsky. Or Zhou. I really need to update this list.

Anyway, I am unable and unwilling to like any of this more than any other of it, because that is incompatible with true enjoyment.

Here is a link to the last time we went over this

http://www.talkclassical.com/16423-ranking.html


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

More deleting.

Really, follow that link.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

More deleting.

Totally new post.

@ Some Guy, and anyone who agrees with him:

I'm going to go on doing what I enjoy doing, and I hope everyone else will too, and you all can come up with a hundred thousand more reasons why it's bad and why your way of listening is superior to mine or theirs, and for that matter for why your music is superior to the music that someone else likes, and whatever.

I can see nothing in it but pretension and posturing, and I want you to know that I categorically deny your superiority to me or to anyone else on the basis of what music we/they listen to, on the basis of the way we/they listen to music, or on the basis of how we/they communicate preferences and/or recommendations.

I also want you to know that such pretension and posturing in fact has had - at least as far as I personally am concerned - the exact opposite of its intended effect: in spite of the fact that we enjoy much of the same music I rank and rate and judge _you_ inferior to even the most naive listener who enjoys the most sentimental, predictable music and wishes to rank it or rate it or recommend it using terms like "greatest" or whatever - as long as in all humility they do not consider or try to portray themselves as superior to anyone else on the basis of whether or how they rank, rate, listen to, or enjoy music.


----------



## Guest (Feb 2, 2012)

Um, ok.

I guess I can still have opinions, though.

And still express them.

And since you've seen through my fundamental pretension and posturing, my expressing them won't hurt you any more.

Embarrassing that I did the same thread twice, though. Without even realizing it.

How humiliating!!


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I rate my pieces with those little stars that are on Itunes because I think it's fun.


----------



## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

some guy said:


> I guess I can still have opinions, though.
> 
> And still express them.


That is a silly recourse, of course you can have your opinions, but public opinions are subject to the laws of reason, and other people are free to contradict you, point out that you're wrong, that you're unreasonable, etc etc.

You're not entitled to have wrong opinions go uncontradicted.


----------



## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Wagner: Die fliegende Holländer Oveture
Wagner: Die Meistersinger
Wagner: Lohengrin
Wagner: Parsifal
Wagner: Siegfried-Idyll
Wagner: Tannhauser
Wagner: Tannhauser Overture
Wagner: The Ring
Wagner: Tristan und Isolde 

Hey Science I thought you said you hated Wagner? Pretentious, etc.

I don't get Wagner. A disgusting man who wrote pretentious, long, mediocre operas. As far as I can tell, anyway. The Tristan chord is great, but it doesn't get a guy up to #4 on my list. Maybe a top 30 composer for me. Maybe not. Obviously a lot of people who I respect disagree and I should listen to them, but so far I haven't heard what they hear.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

brianwalker said:


> Wagner: Die fliegende Holländer Oveture
> Wagner: Die Meistersinger
> Wagner: Lohengrin
> Wagner: Parsifal
> ...


You got me. That's actually just a list I made about a year ago of things I own or want to own. I don't enjoy Wagner nearly as much as I'm supposed to, but I do like some of those (Siegfried, Ring, Tristan).

But what difference does it make? I'm not allowed to like or not to like things anymore. Everything is equal. I just suck, that's all.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

some guy said:


> I guess I can still have opinions, though.
> 
> And still express them.
> 
> And since you've seen through my fundamental pretension and posturing, my expressing them won't hurt you any more.


I guess so to; and, I guess not.

If you have other criticisms of the way I approach any other facet of my life, feel free to mention them.


----------



## Guest (Feb 2, 2012)

science said:


> If you have other criticisms of the way I approach any other facet of my life, feel free to mention them.


I don't even know you. I have no criticisms or praise of any facet of your life. I might have reactions to things you say online....



brianwalker said:


> You're not entitled to have wrong opinions go uncontradicted.


Hey! That's just how I feel when I read some of your posts!!

We are agreed!:tiphat:


----------



## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

Dodecaplex said:


> I absolutely agree with *some guy*.
> 
> All propositions are of equal value. That is, they have no value at all. Any value that we give to them is also of no value.
> 
> With that, I leave poor *some guy* to the tyranny of the majority. Hope you have a merry time.


By all accounts, given your musings in this forum you should be the most apathetic soul in existance but somehow I think that is pretty far from the truth


----------



## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

Conor71 said:


> By all accounts, given your musings in this forum you should be the most apathetic soul in existance but somehow I think that is pretty far from the truth


Oh, I'm not apathetic at all. :lol: For instance, read my signature: "Not _how_ the world is, is the mystical, but _that_ it is."


----------

