# Alma doesn't deserve more love.



## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

I create this Thread only for make a poll.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Oh, I thought you meant Alma Mahler!


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

This forum is filled with this anti-Alma persecution on a daily basis. Woe, woe is me! 

I don't care for her music, but she's very talented...maybe more so than a lot of Music Department faculty.


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

dissident said:


> This forum is filled with this anti-Alma persecution on a daily basis. Woe, woe is me!
> 
> I don't care for her music, but she's very talented...maybe more so than a lot of Music Department faculty.


I know she's talented, but she's wasting her talent.


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## chipia (Apr 22, 2021)

I voted "Like". I don't listen much to her music, but she is talented, and it is admirable that in an age, where most children wouldn't even consider listening to classical music, she is actually composing it herself. Her style isn't very original yet but she still has time to grow.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

JackRance said:


> I know she's talented, but she's wasting her talent.


Hm. How do you determine that?


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

But if change the name from Alma to John Cage the pro-mod crowd would be screaming if people said the same things.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I'm pretty indifferent. I'm definitely a traditionalist and don't much care for contemporary classical, but I also don't much care for pastiche. She's definitely talented and that's cool but I can't be bothered to ardently defend her or to jump on the hate bandwagon.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> But if change the name from Alma to John Cage the pro-mod crowd would be screaming if people said the same things.


And don't forget, that would be "trolling".


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I first started hearing about her and listening to some of her music about 4 years ago. As far as I can tell, her music-making hasn't changed at all in the past 4 years - no development. True, 4 years isn't much to a middle-aged person, but it's a very long time for a young teenager. If I'm wrong about the lack of development, my apologies.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Bulldog said:


> I first started hearing about her and listening to some of her music about 4 years ago. As far as I can tell, her music-making hasn't changed at all in the past 4 years - no development. True, 4 years isn't much to a middle-aged person, but it's a very long time for a young teenager. If I'm wrong about the lack of development, my apologies.


But to be fair I get the same feeling about Philip Glass, over about 4 decades.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Whatever happened to Jay Greenberg?


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> But if change the name from Alma to John Cage the pro-mod crowd would be screaming if people said the same things.


Not at all.

As one who listens to almost exclusively modern, avant-garde, contemporay classical, I have made my dislike for Cage's music pretty obvious.

The problem I have with the way the anti-modernists seem to trot our Cage anytime they are looking for a quick way to dismiss all of modernism.

The problem I have with Deutscher, is her pastiche (from over 100 years ago) method of composing, and her (false) statements about all modern music being ugly.

If a composer in 1800, composed in the style of 1680, that would not have gone over too well.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Simon Moon said:


> ...
> 
> The problem I have with Deutscher, is her pastiche (from over 100 years ago) method of composing, and her (false) statements about all modern music being ugly. ...


In the first place, did she actually say all modern music is ugly? And even if she did, can you prove her wrong?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> But if change the name from Alma to John Cage the pro-mod crowd would be screaming if people said the same things.


The complaint about Deutscher is not so much that people hate her music or think her works are not music at all. The complaint is that she composes in an old style. If someone said Cage composed in an old style, I assume people would be confused and maybe explain why that is not true. I suspect that you are missing the point about the various critiques of Deutscher.



SanAntone said:


> Whatever happened to Jay Greenberg?


I wondered whether any composer has had significant success (defined in terms of musical reputation not financial) writing in a very old style. I know many composers have extended a period (e.g. those writing neo-Romantic well into the 20th century), but has anyone written in a style that other composers have discarded say 100 years ago and been considered notable? I guess one possible example is film music, but that's really a different category.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

dissident said:


> In the first place, did she actually say all modern music is ugly? And even if she did, can you prove her wrong?


I may have overstated her feelings. I can find a few quotes where she says she doesn't like works she mentions by name, Wozzeck, for example. So, I will retract this point.

But my main point in disliking her work, is her composing like she lived 150 years ago, when there is plenty of contemporary tonal composers, creating new works with plenty of beauty.

Yes, I can prove her wrong: John Tavener, Arvo Part, Jennifer Higdon, Morten Lauridson, Roxanna Panufnik...


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

dissident said:


> In the first place, did she actually say all modern music is ugly? And even if she did, can you prove her wrong?


The statements I have heard from her do not say all modern music is ugly. She simply says that she chooses to write beautiful music instead. I think some here would say her music is pretty rather than beautiful, but I would accept that many consider her music beautiful. I suppose one could infer from her statements that she finds the modern/contemporary style distasteful in general. I think many classical music listeners would agree.

Perhaps it would be better if she simply said her tastes in composition run along the Classical to early Romantic and leave it there. Berg famously said to Gershwin, "Music is music." If she wished to compose early Romantic style music, that's fine. If she wishes to change, that's fine as well. If 3% of listeners love her music, great. If 50% love it, fine. I seriously doubt that she will cause a huge movement away from the styles contemporary composers are choosing. They will continue to compose as they wish.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

To me, Alma Deutscher’s music is probably somewhat like what a young budding composer might have accomplished in the early-mid 18th century. It is not anywhere near the level of music from upper-tier composers in the 19th century, particularly that of the latter Romantic period. Yet, I would love to go to one of her concerts just to see a youngster blessed with this kind of talent and who loves classical music from an era that I associate with the heart and soul of the genre.

I have no idea why she would have been better off composing in some sort of contemporary style as some have inferred. Better off for what?


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

mmsbls said:


> The statements I have heard from her do not say all modern music is ugly. She simply says that she chooses to write beautiful music instead.


Instead of what? All those modern composers busy writing ugly music? I'm sorry, but that's a rather immature and uninformed, if not just plain pompous and arrogant, attitude.

Fortunately, I long ago learned to ignore what composers say, and listen to their music instead. Unfortunately, hers is a pale imitation of Johann Strauss. Her problem (for me) is not that her music is tonal, it's that it is highly unoriginal. But everyone does not have to be a great artist with visionary new ideas. She could be the next Andre Rieu or Liberace, and I consider that a compliment.

To compare Alma Deutscher to a truly great composer as a teen-aged student beginning to learn his way, listen to the original version of Rachmaninoff's 1st piano concerto, Op. 1, written when Rach was an 18-year old Moscow Conservatory student. The assignment was to pattern a piano concerto on that of Grieg, and the close relationship is obvious, even on a first hearing. But so is the extraordinary energy and excitement stemming from a flood of original ideas. The concerto was a huge hit from the start, though of course Rach rewrote it, making it even more excitingly original, and its debt to the Grieg concerto much less direct and obvious.

While few teen composition students will turn out to be a new Rach, it's that creativity and originality, which shines through even in a student assignment to do something closely based on a famous existing piece, that you look for.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Great poll. I do miss option: indifferent.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

mmsbls said:


> I guess one possible example is film music, but that's really a different category.


Why would that be a really different category?
http://wagnertripping.blogspot.com/2013/12/wagners-influence-on-movie-music.html
"Every man or woman in charge of the music of moving picture theater is, consciously or unconsciously, a disciple or follower of Richard Wagner" - Stephen Bush, film critic, 1911
"Please write music like Wagner, only louder" - Sam Goldwyn to a film composer
"If my grandfather were alive today, he would undoubtedly be working in Hollywood" -Wolfgang Wagner


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

fluteman said:


> Instead of what? All those modern composers busy writing ugly music? I'm sorry, but that's a rather immature and uninformed, if not just plain pompous and arrogant, attitude.
> 
> Fortunately, I long ago learned to ignore what composers say, and listen to their music instead. Unfortunately, hers is a pale imitation of Johann Strauss. Her problem (for me) is not that her music is tonal, it's that it is highly unoriginal. But everyone does not have to be a great artist with visionary new ideas. She could be the next Andre Rieu or Liberace, and I consider that a compliment...


This is just a repeat of your post from the other thread. First, if you listen to what she has actually said about the music she writes and why she writes it, it is not anywhere in the realm of the 'pompous and arrogant attitude' you suggest. And second, she's 16, so calling her immature infers that everyone knows how mature sixteen year olds are supposed to be!

Finally, her music may remind of 19th century music, but it bares no relationship to Johann Strauss. Nor does it remind of Andre Rieu or Liberace. I can only assume that if she had presented contemporary music and denounced the concept of composing CPT-like music, you would be admiring her maturity.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, if there was such an option I would vote undecided. I'm holding back voting because of her youth. I made substantive posts about what I think of her here:

https://www.talkclassical.com/70172-what-music-do-classical-2.html#post2029468
https://www.talkclassical.com/70172-what-music-do-classical-3.html#post2030055


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I vote: Who is Alma Deutscher?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

SixFootScowl said:


> I vote: Who is Alma Deutscher?


These Alma threads remind me of all the attention John Williams gets on TC. A little weird.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

DaveM said:


> I can only assume that if she had presented contemporary music and denounced the concept of composing CPT-like music, you would be admiring her maturity.


Right on



fluteman said:


> Her problem (for me) is not that her music is tonal, it's that it is highly unoriginal.


Are there any avant-garde composers you think are as unoriginal as her?


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Simon Moon said:


> Not at all.
> 
> As one who listens to almost exclusively modern, avant-garde, contemporay classical, I have made my dislike for Cage's music pretty obvious.
> 
> ...


I mean, Mozart's Mass in C minor is more or less a Baroque mass. His requiem also has parts that one could be forgiven for assuming them written a hundred years prior. The point is, to me, one could mistake Mozart's "pastiche" for Baroque music of the highest caliber; Alma, on the other hand, is writing competent but mostly average romantic music.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

If I had an ounce of the talent she has I wouldn't be composing old-style Waltzes, I'd try to go with something like this:


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

Rogerx said:


> Great poll. I do miss option: indifferent.


Can I edit the poll?


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

In any case here's the video in which Alma demonstrate that she will never understand the modern and contemporary music:


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

JackRance said:


> In any case here's the video in which Alma demonstrate that she will never understand the modern and contemporary music:


I can't stand her smile


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

JackRance said:


> In any case here's the video in which Alma demonstrate that she will never understand the modern and contemporary music:


I like when she uses Strauss as an example of "beautiful music", without knowing how much "ugly music" he composed.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

SanAntone said:


> Whatever happened to Jay Greenberg?


Jay is now Naomi Weinroth. Here is the link to her page on _Making Waves_ an Australian new music site: https://makingwavesnewmusic.com/special-editions/new-zealand-composers/naomi-weinroth/ It looks like the latest stuff on that page and her Soundcloud site

__
https://soundcloud.com/
 is from 2018.


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

She said: "I think that most people actually go to concerts because they want to hear beautiful music, music full of melodies that you gonna hamm(?) or sing music that speaks to the heart, music that make you want to smile or cry or dance"
Apart for music that make you want to dance, i read a description of Webern's Passacaglia. My first Webern was Langsamer Satz, then I listened to Passacaglia, and then after listen the Passacaglia lot of times i feel the necessity of heard atonal music. So I listened Pierrot Lunaire. I felt a beautiful sensation, that's not only smile or cry, I felt something new. I felt the weight of the world but in a very euphoric and free way. I felt like a nuisance and confusion and I was playing and having fun with all these "ugly" sounds. Now I can't say "music that make you want smile _or_ cry" but "music that make you want smile _and_ cry". It was one of the most beautiful sensations of my life. And I'm 1 year younger than Alma, and I've not a high musical preparation like her. So if she can't feel something like this, she can't compose


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

And what about Rite of Spring. Isn't it music that involves you and make you want to dance?


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

She received a lot of love, and I discovered that Carneigie Hall is not a good theater. Before Florence Foster Jenkins, after Alma Deutscher...  "Obviously Alma is better than Foster Jenkins"


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

It would be fun to know what Boulez's opinion would have been ...


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ In his younger days he would have advocated burning her at the stake. Later he would have destroyed her "philosophy" with mere logic.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

mmsbls said:


> ...
> I wondered whether any composer has had significant success (defined in terms of musical reputation not financial) writing in a very old style. ...


Musical reputation with whom though? General isteners and critics/Pulitzer committees don't always overlap. How many really listen to Ellen Taaffe Zwilich on a regular basis?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ And neither have that good a record on identifying the music that will be seen 50 years later to have mattered. But the record of critics is better than that of the general public by a long chalk.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

hammeredklavier said:


> Why would that be a really different category?
> http://wagnertripping.blogspot.com/2013/12/wagners-influence-on-movie-music.html
> "Every man or woman in charge of the music of moving picture theater is, consciously or unconsciously, a disciple or follower of Richard Wagner" - Stephen Bush, film critic, 1911
> "Please write music like Wagner, only louder" - Sam Goldwyn to a film composer
> "If my grandfather were alive today, he would undoubtedly be working in Hollywood" -Wolfgang Wagner


A subtle difference, but it's not a really different category, but rather it's really a different category. Every composer I have read who composes both film and classical music has viewed the two as different. In general they speak of the flow of their full classical works versus the highly focused, relatively short segments tied closely to a film segment. Their view of the process and the result is quite different.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

dissident said:


> Musical reputation with whom though? General isteners and critics/Pulitzer committees don't always overlap. How many really listen to Ellen Taaffe Zwilich on a regular basis?


Enthusiast's response is a good answer - musical reputation with history. Who is remembered and performed.


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

Listen in this order
Prokofiev (aged 17):




Korngold (aged 14):




Deutscher (aged 16):


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

JackRance said:


> Listen in this order
> Prokofiev (aged 17):
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe Korngold is a little bit annoying, but it's not necessary listen until the end...


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

JackRance said:


> Can I edit the poll?


Alas, no , sorry.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

mmsbls said:


> Enthusiast's response is a good answer - musical reputation with history. Who is remembered and performed.


Well unless we're counting history as the past year or so, there's no telling what history will say about whatever composer. Even Cage hasn't been dead long enough to determine that.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ And neither have that good a record on identifying the music that will be seen 50 years later to have mattered. But the record of critics is better than that of the general public by a long chalk.


Over the past century? I don't know about that.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ And neither have that good a record on identifying the music that will be seen 50 years later to have mattered. But the record of critics is better than that of the general public by a long chalk.


The general public and the classical buying public are not the same, never mind the critics.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

BachIsBest said:


> I mean, Mozart's Mass in C minor is more or less a Baroque mass. His requiem also has parts that one could be forgiven for assuming them written a hundred years prior.


Nonsense. The over-popularity of J.S. Bach, G.F. Handel, F.J. Haydn, W.A. Mozart, L. Boccherini causes (or misleads) people to not think in terms of the "Classical style" (ex. its relation to the Baroque Doctrine of the Affections) and the "proper historical context" of how the genre developed (ex. the "Neapolitan mass"), with such works. By that sort of logic, one could argue that the recitative-aria style of Classical opera, or the Classical symphony, concerto, minuet are also simply derivations of their Baroque counterparts. 




 (1764; notice the "typical sound" of post-Baroque basso continuo / orchestration)




 (1771; the use of the brass in the quam olim abrahae fugue and the sanctus)




 (1764; compare this with the cum sancto spiritu from Mozart's K.427).
Something like Requiem in F minor by Heinrich Biber (a Salzburg predecessor of his) is a work written a hundred years prior; it sounds nothing like either of the Mozart works. Even the Hasse sounds considerably different. The Classical sense of drama (with its use of dynamics and instrumentation) in the kyrie double fugue of the Mozart requiem is something you would never find in pre-1750 music. 
For instance, this was written just 10 years prior to Mozart K.427, the "benedictus" of K.427 is a plausible development on the stylistic combination of the benedictus from Mozart's own K.257 (1776) and this work. (Also, compare the style of orchestration with the "quoniam" of K.427):




The use of dissonance for emphasis (the "Classical sense of drama") "Mise-RE-re" in this is something that you'll find in many places in Mozart such as the dies irae:







hammeredklavier said:


> For instance, this contains all the "traits of Classicism" I described earlier ("Mood shifts within a single movement, Classical style orchestration/instrumentation, sections/phrases cleanly-cut with cadences, and through-composition, etc"):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

dissident said:


> Well unless we're counting history as the past year or so, there's no telling what history will say about whatever composer. Even Cage hasn't been dead long enough to determine that.


Fifty years seems reasonable, and that allows one to evaluate centuries of composers. Has any composer who's been dead for over 50 years had significant success writing in an old style (for their time)?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

dissident said:


> Over the past century? I don't know about that.


That's why I told you. Now you do know. :lol:


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## chipia (Apr 22, 2021)

mmsbls said:


> Fifty years seems reasonable, and that allows one to evaluate centuries of composers. Has any composer who's been dead for over 50 years had significant success writing in an old style (for their time)?


I think Rachmaninov's, Sibelius and Bach's style were considered dated in their time. I'm sure there are others as well.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> These Alma threads remind me of all the attention John Williams gets on TC. A little weird.


That isn't weird to me. John Williams is probably the last living significant exemplar of an important musical tradition, that of the film scores of Hollywood's golden age, that peaked circa 1930-1970. It is a bit weird to see arguments about how Williams measures up to, say, Beethoven. One might as well compare Fats Waller with Orlando Gibbons. But he deserves some sort of discussion.

Here, we have a situation similar to that of Liberace, as I keep mentioning. Liberace was a talented classical pianist from a modest and ordinary background who felt he was being unjustly ignored. He figured out that his path to stardom needed to include a bit of controversy, i.e., nose-tweaking of the stuffy classical establishment. His first famous routine involved performing Kay Kaiser's 1939 hit song, Three Little Fishies, in a classical piano recital. The rest, as they say, is history.

Alma Deutscher also knows perfectly well she is tweaking the noses of today's classical establishment. Hence her comment that she chooses not to write ugly music in the current fashion. While writing music in the style of Johann Strauss is a lot of trouble to go to when the original is right there for the playing, it generates publicity. And apparently she has the skill to do it, just as Liberace had the skill to arrange, sing and play the popular songs of his day as well as virtuoso classical piano standards.

Nothing weird about any of that.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

chipia said:


> I think Rachmaninov's, Sibelius and Bach's style were considered dated in their time. I'm sure there are others as well.


Oh not in the same way. Indeed, when I was young Sibelius had recently been considered a step too far for many and conductors who programmed his music were thought to be brave. And Bach was quite an innovator and kept in close touch with the work of other Baroque masters. Rachmaninov? Well, perhaps. But there has been a long history of slightly conservative virtuoso composers and he was nowhere near as behind the times as Alma.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

chipia said:


> I think Rachmaninov's, Sibelius and Bach's style were considered dated in their time. I'm sure there are others as well.


Yes, I agree their styles were considered dated, but I think they were dated in that they did not move on from the recent style that many of their contemporaries had left. So in that sense they were extending the style they were born into. And all of them did a wonderful job. I wonder if anyone had success writing in a style that was already quite dated when they were born.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

fluteman said:


> That isn't weird to me. John Williams is probably the last living significant exemplar of an important musical tradition, that of the film scores of Hollywood's golden age, that peaked circa 1930-1970. It is a bit weird to see arguments about how Williams measures up to, say, Beethoven. One might as well compare Fats Waller with Orlando Gibbons. But he deserves some sort of discussion.
> 
> Here, we have a situation similar to that of Liberace, as I keep mentioning. Liberace was a talented classical pianist from a modest and ordinary background who felt he was being unjustly ignored. He figured out that his path to stardom needed to include a bit of controversy, i.e., nose-tweaking of the stuffy classical establishment. His first famous routine involved performing Kay Kaiser's 1939 hit song, Three Little Fishies, in a classical piano recital. The rest, as they say, is history.
> 
> ...


Some discussion, yes - but a little while back someone pointed out that there were a dozen threads devoted to John Williams. Now two have been created for Alma Deutscher. It seems to me they are stalking horses for an agenda other than just the music of the composer.

I think the Williams threads were driven by a few big fans who felt pretty strongly about his stature. But, it is of no real consequence, if that's what people want to talk about on TC, I guess it is no weirder than wondering why people shave their faces and not their heads (although both claims are false).


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> Now two have been created for Alma Deutscher.


And there were already two from a while back...

Alma Deutscher

Alma Deutscher

Enjoy!


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Forster said:


> And there were already two from a while back...
> 
> Alma Deutscher
> 
> ...


Oh goody! Now let's make another one entitled: "POLL: Would you like more Alma Deutscher threads?"


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Vasks said:


> Oh goody! Now let's make another one entitled: "POLL: Would you like more Alma Deutscher threads?"


Or "I don't think Alma Deutscher threads get enough love."


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> Some discussion, yes - but a little while back someone pointed out that there were a dozen threads devoted to John Williams. Now two have been created for Alma Deutscher. It seems to me they are stalking horses for an agenda other than just the music of the composer.
> 
> I think the Williams threads were driven by a few big fans who felt pretty strongly about his stature. But, it is of no real consequence, if that's what people want to talk about on TC, I guess it is no weirder than wondering why people shave their faces and not their heads (although both claims are false).


It all falls within the eternal topic, What is (and isn't) classical music. So figures like these will continue to be popular subjects of discussion.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

mmsbls said:


> Fifty years seems reasonable, and that allows one to evaluate centuries of composers. Has any composer who's been dead for over 50 years had significant success writing in an old style (for their time)?


Well you have Pärt, who draws inspiration from medieval music...as did Hovhaness. Then there's Barber and Hanson. And Copland's music apart from a few works was strongly melodic and drew upon older music. On the other hand, how many really listen to Milton Babbitt?


Enthusiast said:


> Oh not in the same way. Indeed, when I was young Sibelius had recently been considered a step too far for many and conductors who programmed his music were thought to be brave.


Whaaaaat? :lol:


Enthusiast said:


> And Bach was quite an innovator...


How so?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

dissident said:


> How so?







http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Topics/Opera.htm
"But one of the complaints about Bach was that his cantatas were too operatic. More than any other composer he introduced the Italian opera style into church music, something his predecessor Johann Kuhnau had always resisted."
http://christermalmberg.se/documents/musik/klassiskt/mozart/mozart_verk_massor.php
"Since opera was the foremost musical genre of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, it is hardly surprising that operatic elements should have found their way into the sacred music of the time. This caused the development of the "stilus ecclesiasticus mixtus" or mixed church style, which combined traditional contrapuntal choruses with coloratura solo arias and ensembles. This development began mainly in Naples, hence the term Neapolitan Mass. The imposing solemn Mass or Missa solemnis split the text of the Ordinary of the Mass into separate pieces, like the individual numbers in an opera, a practice which contemporary theoreticians such as Johann Joseph Fux and Meinrad Spiess opposed."

Zelenka sounds grindy, Handel sounds clunky when they try to do this sort of stuff.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

dissident said:


> On the other hand, how many really listen to Milton Babbitt?


161,767 ................


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

mmsbls said:


> 161,767 ................


That's views of a 13-year-old YT video. I don't listen to Babbitt but just now watched the video. So much for that.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

dissident said:


> That's views of a YT video. I don't listen to Babbitt but just now watched the video. So much for that.


Besides, it was uploaded in 2008. There are zillions of videos of mundane content on youtube aged 15 years and having view counts (accumulated over all those years) like that.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> Besides, it was uploaded in 2008. There are zillions of videos of mundane content on youtube aged 15 years and having view counts (accumulated over all those years) like that.


Yeah I tucked that video's age into my comment after I realized it was from 2008.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

dissident said:


> That's views of a 13-year-old YT video. I don't listen to Babbitt but just now watched the video. So much for that.


Sorry, I was joking. You're correct that comparatively few listen to Babbitt and even fewer listen and enjoy him. I'm guessing that essentially everyone on TC knows that and further knows that much of modern/contemporary is enjoyed by significantly fewer people than earlier music. If your point was simply that the style of Alma is enjoyed by many more people than modern/contemporary music, I would agree.

As far as I know, every composer draws on earlier music, and so did Pärt, Hovhaness, Barber, Hanson, and Copland. I don't think anyone thinks Pärt or Hovhaness write in the medieval style. Similarly for Barber, Hanson, and Copland. They wrote in a style that would not be considered pastiche. Personally, I would have no problem with a composer writing in an older style. Composers can write whatever they feel compelled to write. I just am not aware of any composer who is played and recorded often who wrote in a much older style from his/her time period.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

mmsbls said:


> ...
> As far as I know, every composer draws on earlier music,


Maybe, but I'd like for someone to demonstrate to me how Bach and Stockhausen (or Boulez or Ferneyhough) lie on the same continuum.


> ... and so did Pärt, Hovhaness, Barber, Hanson, and Copland. I don't think anyone thinks Pärt or Hovhaness write in the medieval style. Similarly for Barber, Hanson, and Copland. They wrote in a style that would not be considered pastiche. ...


But you're comparing them with the music of a kid who's 16 as we speak.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

mmsbls said:


> Composers can write whatever they feel compelled to write.


Some people here have trouble with that concept.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> Some people here have trouble with that concept.


You mean the ones picking apart Alma Deutscher? :lol:


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

dissident said:


> Maybe, but I'd like for someone to demonstrate to me how Bach and Stockhausen (or Boulez or Ferneyhough) lie on the same continuum.


I don't know enough about music theory or history, but the Western Kentucky music site of Charles Smith shows musical influences. One can look at Boulez and see he was influenced by Debussy, Bartok, Stravinky, Schoenberg, and Webern. Stravinsky and Schoenberg were influenced by Bach.

Stockhausen was influenced by Bartok who was influenced by Bach.



dissident said:


> But you're comparing them with the music of a kid who's 16 as we speak.


I'm not comparing them to Deutscher so I don't understand your comment.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

mmsbls said:


> I don't know enough about music theory or history, but the Western Kentucky music site of Charles Smith shows musical influences. One can look at Boulez and see he was influenced by Debussy, Bartok, Stravinky, Schoenberg, and Webern. Stravinsky and Schoenberg were influenced by Bach.
> . ...


I think that chain of influence more or less broke when common practice did. Debussy and Cage were influenced by Far Eastern music, but that doesn't put them on the Asian music continuum.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

mmsbls said:


> I don't know enough about music theory or history, but the Western Kentucky music site of Charles Smith shows musical influences. One can look at Boulez and see he was influenced by Debussy, Bartok, Stravinky, Schoenberg, and Webern. Stravinsky and Schoenberg were influenced by Bach.
> Stockhausen was influenced by Bartok who was influenced by Bach.


But I strongly think a lot of avant-garde music has only about as much relevance with the common practice as the Beatles' does. This is why your claims that "there are avant-garde music enthusiasts who appreciate common practice music" only strike me as significant as "there are jazz enthusiasts who appreciate classical music" (for example). The Beatles were absolutely influenced by Stockhausen; does that make them classical?:


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

hammeredklavier said:


> But I strongly think a lot of avant-garde music has only about as much relevance with the common practice as the Beatles' does. This is why your claims that "there are avant-garde music enthusiasts who appreciate common practice music" only strike me as significant as "there are jazz enthusiasts who appreciate classical music" (for example). The Beatles were absolutely influenced by Stockhausen; does that make them classical?:


My claim about modern/contemporary music enthusiasts appreciating common practice music was a specific response to a claim that suggested there was no overlap. In that regard, it was enormously more significant than saying there are jazz enthusiasts who appreciate classical music.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

mmsbls said:


> My claim about modern/contemporary music enthusiasts appreciating common practice music was a specific response to a claim that suggested there was no overlap. In that regard, it was enormously more significant than saying there are jazz enthusiasts who appreciate classical music.


The overlap is with music of quality no matter if it is common practice or contemporary. The enemies of new music want to lump it all into one pile, as if it were monolithic. However the truth is there is much more variety in contemporary music than there is with common practice music.

The reason I am critical of Deutscher is not because she writes tonal music. It is because her music is mediocre and only getting attention because of her age.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> The overlap is with music of quality no matter if it is common practice or contemporary.


Define "quality". Your standards of quality are obviously different from mine. A lot of the videos you post I would consider noisy junk, and you'd probably feel the same about things I like.


> The enemies of new music want to lump it all into one pile, as if it were monolithic.


Not really. I admire some contemporary composers. You want to lump everything of which you approve as "quality".


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

mmsbls said:


> Composers can write whatever they feel compelled to write.





SanAntone said:


> Some people here have trouble with that concept.





dissident said:


> You mean the ones picking apart Alma Deutscher? :lol:


Please find one quote from any of us that have been picking apart Alma Deutscher's compositions, that have stated that she should not be able to compost whatever she wants.

You do understand that it is possible to be highly critical of a composer's music, yet still not claim the composer should not compose it, right?

Your response seems an awful lot like a non sequitur.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I teach kids her age. The idea of adults voting on whether we like a child her age is bizarre. How far off is the day when we have a poll on whether Stockhausen is a poopy face?


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

science said:


> I teach kids her age. The idea of adults voting on whether we like a child her age is bizarre. How far off is the day when we have a poll on whether Stockhausen is a poopy face?


If anyone did Stockhausen poll like that the pro modern crowd will break the report button hitting it so hard.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

science said:


> I teach kids her age. The idea of adults voting on whether we like a child her age is bizarre. How far off is the day when we have a poll on whether Stockhausen is a poopy face?


Did you not understand that the poll is about liking or disliking her music? Not her as a person.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> Did you not understand that the poll is about liking or disliking her music? Not her as a person.


It's almost certainly true that that is what was intended, but the wording of the poll and the title of the thread make no mention of her music.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

JackRance said:


> It would be fun to know what Boulez's opinion would have been ...


Great composers can be just as opinionated as many of our members.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> If anyone did Stockhausen poll like that the pro modern crowd will break the report button hitting it so hard.


Why does everything these days have to be tribal? I come here partly to avoid that tendency that dominates our news these days. There is no "pro-modern crowd" - just people who enjoy music (sometimes including music you dislike). Live with it: it isn't a conspiracy.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Simon Moon said:


> Please find one quote from any of us that have been picking apart Alma Deutscher's compositions, that have stated that she should not be able to compost whatever she wants.
> 
> You do understand that it is possible to be highly critical of a composer's music, yet still not claim the composer should not compose it, right?


Please find where anyone has ever said that modern composers shouldn't be able to compose whatever they like. I can show several comments complaining about those mean, nasty, persecuting "anti-modern music" haters that fill the forum daily with their hatred.


> Your response seems an awful lot like a non sequitur.


Learn what a non sequitur is.



Enthusiast said:


> Why does everything these days have to be tribal? I come here partly to avoid that tendency that dominates our news these days. There is no "pro-modern crowd" - just people who enjoy music (sometimes including music you dislike). Live with it: it isn't a conspiracy.


Sounds nice, but I can tell you from personal experience that Johnnie Burgess is absolutely right. Besides, aren't you the one who puts people who disagree with you on "ignore"? I've never done that. That's sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la, la, la"...


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

science said:


> I teach kids her age. The idea of adults voting on whether we like a child her age is bizarre. How far off is the day when we have a poll on whether Stockhausen is a poopy face?


I've read this post several times now, and every time I laugh. I know you are serious about thinking the poll is not really the kind of thing those serious about classical music should consider. Still, if someone did create the Stockhausen poll, I would be conflicted about thinking it immature and thinking it hilarious.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Enthusiast said:


> Why does everything these days have to be tribal? I come here partly to avoid that tendency that dominates our news these days. There is no "pro-modern crowd" - just people who enjoy music (sometimes including music you dislike). Live with it: it isn't a conspiracy.


I like this post a lot. What people sometimes miss is that everyone on this site is vastly more alike in their appreciation of music than different. Our tastes in music are not identical, but I'd much rather sit down with any group of 10 TC members to discuss music than just about any general group in the world.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Simon Moon said:


> Please find one quote from any of us that have been picking apart Alma Deutscher's compositions, that have stated that she should not be able to compost whatever she wants.
> 
> You do understand that it is possible to be highly critical of a composer's music, yet still not claim the composer should not compose it, right?
> 
> Your response seems an awful lot like a non sequitur.


Totally agree with you. I am in total agreement that anyone should be able to compose what they like, even the people who compose most of the dreadful stuff that passes for music today. The only qualification I will put on it is that other people should not be required to listen to it.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

mmsbls said:


> I've read this post several times now, and every time I laugh. I know you are serious about thinking the poll is not really the kind of thing those serious about classical music should consider. Still, if someone did create the Stockhausen poll, I would be conflicted about thinking it immature and thinking it hilarious.
> .


Now now mmsbls. You know that one would be locked in a New York minute and the one who posted it would be banished to the community area for a couple of months. :lol:


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

dissident said:


> Now now mmsbls. You know that one would be locked in a New York minute and the one who posted it would be banished to the community area for a couple of months. :lol:


And someone will say that is another example of the anti-mod threads that fill the pages. And may give the creator of the thread an infraction.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> And someone will say that is another example of the anti-mod threads that fill the pages.


:lol: Yeah, exactly.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

dissident said:


> Now now mmsbls. You know that one would be locked in a New York minute and the one who posted it would be banished to the community area for a couple of months. :lol:


If I thought this poll were actually about liking the person, Deutscher, I think we would delete it. If I thought the poll about Stockhausen were actually about whether he was not liked as a person, we would also probably delete it.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> ... And may give the creator of the thread an infraction.


Yep, most definitely. Some "trolls" are more equal than others, apparently.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

mmsbls said:


> If I thought this poll were actually about liking the person, Deutscher, I think we would delete it. If I thought the poll about Stockhausen were actually about whether he was not liked as a person, we would also probably delete it.


Then why not edit this poll to state music and not the person?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Then why not edit this poll to state music and not the person?


The responses make it clear people believe the poll is asking about her music.

But can we get back to the thread itself. What do people think of Deutscher's music?


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Then why not edit this poll to state music and not the person?


Please let's not argue about such stupid details!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> The responses make it clear people believe the poll is asking about her music.
> 
> But can we get back to the thread itself. What do people think of Deutscher's music?


I'm not sure we can separate those things so well.

I'm not very enthusiastic about the music she's made so far, at least not what I've heard of it. It's okay. But hey, she's a child.

It seems to me that she's kind of sheltered. Maybe that's right, since she's a child. But she's not forming her ideas from conversations with other contemporary composers. I hope for her sake that she gets to have a somewhat normal high school and college experience, with a little bit of rebellion, pushing the boundaries the adults in her world have set for her, getting out in the world and learning about things her parents and home community haven't been telling her, whatever those things are. Finding out who she wants to be and becoming an adult, able to converse meaningfully and valuably with adults, which she isn't right now, and that's normal and acceptable because she's a child.

Well, she's also a pawn in some cultural struggle that she probably doesn't understand yet, but a time will come when she takes control of herself and we'll see what happens then.

I hope I live a few more decades just in case her story takes any really interesting turns. I just find it unlikely that her musical tastes and ideas will be the same when she's 35 or 55 as when she's 15.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

science said:


> I'm not sure we can separate those things so well.
> 
> I'm not very enthusiastic about the music she's made so far, at least not what I've heard of it. It's okay. But hey, she's a child.
> 
> ...


Interesting what you say and comparing her with Mozart at the same age, who of course was, together with his sister, a pawn in the game too - that of making money for his father. The painful separation of father and son is well described in Swafford's biography. Leopold can only be described as a completely self-obsessed manipulator. Be interesting to see what happens in the case of this kid


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

science said:


> I teach kids her age. The idea of adults voting on whether we like a child her age is bizarre. How far off is the day when we have a poll on whether Stockhausen is a poopy face?


Thank you science. I'm not going to vote on whether I like a young girl I don't know.  What I think Alma deserves - or rather, deserved - was not to be thrust into an untenable, no win situation in the public eye as a short shelf-life cash cow and messiah for the easy-listening crowd.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

JackRance said:


> Please let's not argue about such stupid details!


I should say that getting the question right - assuming it's worth asking and answering - is not a stupid detail, but you're right that it doesn't need to be argued about: it can simply be corrected.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I fail to see why anybody would not understand that this is about her music, but as it has now been brought up repeatedly, I changed the wording accordingly.


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## Hunt Stromberg (Sep 6, 2021)

We live in an era of the fetishization of the child; Greta Thunberg and Alma Deutscher. There are others. It's the fetishization which interests me, not the child.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

JTS said:


> Leopold can only be described as a completely self-obsessed manipulator.


What's the evidence for that? It's not like he was being greedy; he was also successful and financially stable as a composer himself (and the author of a famous book on violin playing), but "gave up composing" around the early 1760s for his son's education.
"Leopold Mozart was a talented musician who well understood his craft as a composer....many of his church pieces, of which we find masses, litanies, offertories and many others in considerable number are among the best that he wrote." -Ernst Fritz Schmid
"Of the manuscript compositions by Herr Mozart which have become known, numerous contrapuntal and other church pieces are especially noteworthy." http://conquest.imslp.info/files/im...MLP169311-Litaniæ_de_Venerabili_C.pdf#page=42


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

JTS said:


> Totally agree with you. I am in total agreement that anyone should be able to compose what they like, even the people who compose most of the dreadful stuff that passes for music today. The only qualification I will put on it is that other people should not be required to listen to it.


How could they possibly be required to listen to it? How could they possibly be required to learn about the logical development and history of music, and the continuing developments in modern music?

Like so many difficult subjects today many people don't have the 'interest' or the attention span to learn about it, And I guess they want other people to know about it. At least that is how it is with science subjects on the Internet. When I was growing up we would've been so embarrassed to broadcast to everybody our ignorance about science subjects, but today it's like a badge of pride. Cosmology, evolution, particle physics, global warming, these are glaring examples. I guess the resentfulness has been with us for 500 years.
BUT the voting public needs to be engaged for the future of humanity.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I’m surprised at how much criticism there is on how Alma’s talent has been handled. She is a prodigy-level, precocious, headstrong young girl and seems to know what she wants and when she wants it. I don’t think the parents have much of a choice. She has indicated that she does not want some of the traditional training and I think she puts her foot down on that score.

As she is getting older she is gaining more control over her career. Ever heard of emancipation of a minor? The parents can try to take control or go along with it. Sure there’s a financial incentive, but I don’t think it is the primary reason for where this talent is taking her. Does anyone here have any proof that it is?


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Just because someone can confidently declare who they are, what they want and what their opinions are, doesn't mean that those things haven't been acquired from other people, or that they reflect ideas and opinions in perpetuity. I have no problem with AD herself, or her music: what the 17 year old thinks now may well change over the years.

For me, the issue is what others claim about her and her music.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Hunt Stromberg said:


> We live in an era of the fetishisation of the child; Greta Thunberg and Alma Deutscher. There are others. It's the fetishization which interests me, not the child.


Era of the fetishisation of the child? Hardly Shirley Temple I would think! Comparing Greta who is a talentless pawn of the Green industry to Alma who is a highly talented kid seems a bit far fetched. Comparing either of them to ST is one step further


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

DaveM said:


> I'm surprised at how much criticism there is on how Alma's talent has been handled. She is a prodigy-level, precocious, headstrong young girl and seems to know what she wants and when she wants it. I don't think the parents have much of a choice. She has indicated that she does not want some of the traditional training and I think she puts her foot down on that score.
> 
> As she is getting older she is gaining more control over her career. Ever heard of emancipation of a minor? The parents can try to take control or go along with it. Sure there's a financial incentive, but I don't think it is the primary reason for where this talent is taking her. Does anyone here have any proof that it is?


AD was home schooled. Do you think that was her choice or her parents'? Have you considered how that might affect ones relation to the world and the breadth of the ideas to which one is exposed? How that kind of insular child rearing affects the basis for making personal decisions? Or why cults and fringe religions seem to favor it more than others? I think it wise to consider such things before opining on the autonomy of people we don't know.



JTS said:


> Era of the fetishisation of the child? Hardly Shirley Temple I would think! *Comparing Greta who is a talentless pawn of the Green industry *to Alma who is a highly talented kid seems a bit far fetched. Comparing either of them to ST is one step further


Green industry? I haven't heard that weird conspiracy theory yet. Tell me more.  Thunberg has demonstrated considerable talent in public speaking and leadership for someone her age. Do you understand chess and the role of pawns in the game? Doesn't sound like you do. Have you ever tried to make a pawn out of someone on the autism spectrum?


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

EdwardBast said:


> AD was home schooled. Do you think that was her choice or her parents'? Have you considered how that might affect ones relation to the world and the breadth of the ideas to which one is exposed? How that kind of insular child rearing affects the basis for making personal decisions? Or why cults and fringe religions seem to favor it more than others? I think it wise to consider such things before opining on the autonomy of people we don't know.
> 
> Green industry? I haven't heard that weird conspiracy theory yet. Tell me more.  Thunberg has demonstrated considerable talent in public speaking and leadership for someone her age. Do you understand chess and the role of pawns in the game? Doesn't sound like you do. Have you ever tried to make a pawn out of someone on the autism spectrum?


Mozart was home schooled too btw. I have friends to homeschool their children for various reasons other than cults or fringe religions . One reason is schools are not up to standard .

Thunberg has demonstrated that she can be used as a pawn in the game. Yes, I have experience of people in the autism spectrum. And I would feel there's quite a bit of cultishness about Greta's followers in the green industry


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

Anyone who thinks Greta makes her on speech and is nothing more than a cute girl with autism is out of his mind. She has be caught again and again with simples questions and she cannot even formulate a sentence without her script that she reads all the time. I have another truth, earth is flat :lol:


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

EdwardBast said:


> AD was home schooled. Do you think that was her choice or her parents'? Have you considered how that might affect ones relation to the world and the breadth of the ideas to which one is exposed? How that kind of insular child rearing affects the basis for making personal decisions? Or why cults and fringe religions seem to favor it more than others?


Oooooooh gotta bite my tongue on this one.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Machiavel said:


> Anyone who thinks Greta makes her on speech and is *nothing more than a cute girl with autism* is out of his mind.


"Nothing more than a cute girl with autism." Wow...


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Could I suggest that we move the thread back to Alma Deutscher and music?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I just realized that the poll title and the thread title are a bit different. Other than the view that everyone in the world probably should get more love, I have no idea whether Deutscher gets enough. I can, however, answer the poll question.

I'm not sure I've ever heard a Classical or early Romantic era work that I did not like, and Deutscher's are no different. So I do enjoy her music. Having said that, I never listen to her other than through videos posted in these threads, and I doubt I would ever recommend her present works to anyone because there are others I would recommend instead. Of course, there are precious few works by teenagers that I would recommend.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

mmsbls said:


> Could I suggest that we move the thread back to Alma Deutscher and music?


Damn, I was just about to mention Shirley Temple...


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

She will do fine. Parents are rich , she is probably rich, she already has a huge audience and followers who will continue to follow her no matter what. There are worst things than ending up like Andre Rieu . She has talent, it’s just in elite schools you can find fiddlers better. It’s the good pr that makes her having all these gigs. Good for her. Will she evolve and surprises us, imho I think she will stay the path she is on. You be crazy to let go of all this money, fame and I think she likes the spotlights. Time will tell…

Maybe she will get out a violin concerto that will make sus in awe of her as with all greats fiddlers


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Machiavel said:


> She will do fine. Parents are rich , she is probably rich, she already has a huge audience and followers who will continue to follow her no matter what. There are worst things than ending up like Andre Rieu . She has talent, it's just in elite schools you can find fiddlers better. It's the good pr that makes her having all these gigs. Good for her. Will she evolve and surprises us, imho I think she will stay the path she is on. You be crazy to let go of all this money, fame and I think she likes the spotlights. Time will tell…
> 
> Maybe she will get out a violin concerto that will make sus in awe of her as with all greats fiddlers


But she's not just a fiddler.


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## Hunt Stromberg (Sep 6, 2021)

Alma Deutscher. Blah, blah, blah.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

mmsbls said:


> Of course, there are precious few works by teenagers that I would recommend.


I've already mentioned a couple in this thread that you might recommend - the Rach 1st piano concerto and the Mendelssohn Octet. It's hard for me to think of too many others, and Rach later substantially revised and improved the concerto. Barber was known as a prodigy, and School for Scandal and Dover Beach date to when he was 21.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

fluteman said:


> I've already mentioned a couple in this thread that you might recommend - the Rach 1st piano concerto and the Mendelssohn Octet. It's hard for me to think of too many others, and Rach later substantially revised and improved the concerto. Barber was known as a prodigy, and School for Scandal and Dover Beach date to when he was 21.


As for Mendelssohn I would also recommend his string symphonies...wonderful pieces. Written when he was ages 12 to 14.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

This whole prodigy thing passes me by, at least as far as the music is concerned. If the music is good enough to enjoy, what does the age of the composer matter? We can marvel all we like at someone's precocious abilities, speculate at the role of the family in their promotion, wonder at the likely downfall of classical music as a result of the prodigy and whether they are at least a bit better than Andre Rieu (what he do to seserve such levels of opprobrium except be very successful and make horribly large amounts of money?)...

But what it boils down to is, if you like the music, listen to it. If you think it's the greatest, by all means campaign for it as _some_ Wagner, WAM and LvB fans do for their idol. And the rest of us can ignore or consider her music on its own mertits But surely we can set her age aside and move on?


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Forster said:


> This whole prodigy thing passes me by, at least as far as the music is concerned. If the music is good enough to enjoy, what does the age of the composer matter? We can marvel all we like at someone's precocious abilities, speculate at the role of the family in their promotion, wonder at the likely downfall of classical music as a result of the prodigy and whether they are at least a bit better than Andre Rieu (what he do to seserve such levels of opprobrium except be very successful and make horribly large amounts of money?)...
> 
> But what it boils down to is, if you like the music, listen to it. If you think it's the greatest, by all means campaign for it as _some_ Wagner, WAM and LvB fans do for their idol. And the rest of us can ignore or consider her music on its own mertits But surely we can set her age aside and move on?


Dear old Andre Rieu suffers from the same problem as Alma - success performing music people actually enjoy. In doing so he gives welcome employment to many musicians and draws the ire and envy of the more elitist classical world. I wouldn't go within a mile of Andre's concerts but if he is bringing pleasure to thousands of people by what he does, good luck to him! I say the same to Alma, hoping that wise heads will guide her talent into a successful career as a serious composer.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Haydn70 said:


> As for Mendelssohn I would also recommend his string symphonies...wonderful pieces. Written when he was ages 12 to 14.


There is of course an argument as to who was the greater prodigy - Mozart or Mendelssohn. Add to them Saint Saens. If they had lived today they would no doubt have done things like Alma: she composed her first piano sonata at the age of five. At seven, she completed a short opera The Sweeper of Dreams. Aged nine, she wrote a concerto for violin and orchestra. At the age of ten, she wrote her first full-length opera, Cinderella, which had its European premiere in Vienna in 2016 under the patronage of conductor Zubin Mehta. At the age of twelve, she premiered her first piano concerto. 
What they had to do as they mature it was to prove their musicianship and their worth when they were no longer the child wonder


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

dissident said:


> But to be fair I get the same feeling about Philip Glass, over about 4 decades.


Have you considered an ear tuning?


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

JTS said:


> I say the same to Alma, hoping that wise heads will guide her talent into a successful career as a serious composer.


or not, depending on her personal dreams.


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

Just 16 years old and already polarizing like a big boss. She has a great future.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Aries said:


> Just 16 years old and already polarizing like a big boss. She has a great future.


Well maybe she'll eventually go all avant-garde as the composer-in-residence at the Sozietät für Zukunftsmusik in Oberschildenberg and we can all come back to this thread and exchange roles.


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