# Why is Mozart bad? well..........



## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

It is a fact.

Mozart wrote intentionally bad music.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

I can foresee some sort of argument is going to take place.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

I bet _Kieran_ is facepalming right now...


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

Obvious troll is obvious


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

He's not a musical genius, he's a very naughty boy!!!


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

samm said:


> Mozart wrote intentionally bad music.


This is quite correct!






Best regards, Dr


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

DrKilroy said:


> This is quite correct!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's good music.


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## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

Garlic said:


> Obvious troll is obvious


I am not a troll.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

samm said:


> I am not a troll.


Alright calm down. No need to cause an argument but I do think that seems to be your purpose at the moment.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Burroughs said:


> I can foresee some sort of argument is going to take place.


You don't argue with someone who makes a statement of that sort.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Ravndal said:


> I bet _Kieran_ is facepalming right now...


:lol:

I bet this thread will run for years........ :devil:


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Burroughs said:


> Alright calm down. No need to cause an argument but I do think that seems to be your purpose at the moment.


I would leave it and say nothing.


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## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

Kieran said:


> :lol:
> 
> I bet this thread will run for years........ :devil:


I see, the forums Mozart geek. They all have one.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

there is only one problem with this thread: it's not a poll!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

_This article needs *additional citations for verification.* Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (July 2013)

This section may contain wording that *promotes the subject in a subjective manner without imparting real information.* Please remove or replace such wording and instead of making proclamations about a subject's importance, use facts and attribution to demonstrate that importance. (July 2013)_



samm said:


> It is a fact.
> 
> Mozart wrote intentionally bad music. He was an idiot.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

deggial said:


> there is only one problem with this thread: it's not a poll!


It *is *a troll.

Oh sorry, you said _poll_...


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

samm said:


> It is a fact.
> 
> Mozart wrote intentionally bad music. He was an idiot.


I for one would welcome a thorough discussion of this topic between samm and bellbottom.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

samm said:


> It is a fact.
> 
> Mozart wrote intentionally bad music. He was an idiot.


There is a HUGE difference between saying that you don't like the music of Wolfgang Mozart and you saying that Mozart's music is bad without giving any reason or evidence to prove that this "fact" (as you call it) is true.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Nereffid said:


> I for one would welcome a thorough discussion of this topic between samm and bellbottom.


That would be a historic event on TC. A statue of Mozart in traditional Indian costume from the area of Mumbai shall be erected to commemorate the event.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Burroughs said:


> That's good music.


Do you know its history? Mozart intended it to be written poorly to mock what he thought of as the "bad" composers of his time.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> That would be a historic event on TC. A statue of Mozart in traditional Indian costume from the area of Mumbai shall be erected to commemorate the event.


Statue of Indian Mozart: samm, a cenar teco m'invitasti e son venuto!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mozart didn't actually "write" bad music; he was in touch with the divine, so he was just a "vessel" that the demonic forces used to create these works.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

May I just say: I appreciate the fact that no one has actually engaged in a discussion in this thread. It's such an absurd proposition and topic.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Mozart didn't actually "write" bad music; he was in touch with the divine, so he was just a "vessel" that the demonic forces used to create these works.


And of course empty vessels make the most noise. Or something.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> I for one would welcome a thorough discussion of this topic between samm and bellbottom.


That made my day...lol.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Mozart didn't actually "write" bad music; he was in touch with the divine, so he was just a "vessel" that the demonic forces used to create these works.


Make your mind up, please Million - the divine or the demonic?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> the divine or the demonic?


but they are one! put on your spiritual cap, mister!


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## Geo Dude (May 22, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> _This article needs *additional citations for verification.* Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (July 2013)
> 
> This section may contain wording that *promotes the subject in a subjective manner without imparting real information.* Please remove or replace such wording and instead of making proclamations about a subject's importance, use facts and attribution to demonstrate that importance. (July 2013)_


You just won the thread.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

samm said:


> I see, the forums Mozart geek. They all have one.


Make that two. :tiphat:


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## Geo Dude (May 22, 2013)

jhar26 said:


> Make that two. :tiphat:


Three, actually.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Nereffid said:


> I for one would welcome a thorough discussion of this topic between samm and bellbottom.


This may well be Bellbottom who actually is.....?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Mozart didn't actually "write" bad music; he was in touch with the divine, so he was just a "vessel" that the demonic forces used to create these works.


Haven't you just dragged this in from your thread on Mozart...it bored me to death there so do everyone a favour>


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I am _not_ a Mozart geek; just a common worshiper.


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## Feathers (Feb 18, 2013)

*Reads thread title*



samm said:


> Why is Mozart bad? well.........


*Prepares to read long paragraphs explaining why the OP thinks so*



samm said:


> It is a fact.


...................................=.="

Well, you know what, Mozart is freakin' brilliant. Why? Because _it is a fact_. ut:


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

moody said:


> This may well be Bellbottom who actually is.....?


... Antonio Salieri!

Sorry, just a weird thought. 

Best regards, Dr


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Kieran said:


> :lol:
> 
> I bet this thread will run for years........ :devil:


Oh God, I hope not !


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

moody said:


> Oh God, I hope not !


:lol: Believe me, it will! I'm waiting for the thread, "Is Mozart Overrated?" to resurface, then we'll have nearly all the Mozart threads that aren't about Mozart rumbling like a _gross_ fugue in the belly of the forum...


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

I guess this means summer school is out.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

wow yeah mozart sux he cant even rap eminem is waaaaaaaaaaay better hes like the god of music and his lyrics actually make sense mozart cant even write english what an idiot


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I rated this thread five stars, the OP is a wholly accurate satire of the garbage modern music fans are confronted with every time some pig ignorant goon decides they've got it all figured out and they're going to share their brilliant insights with the world. If what samm says seems ridiculous it's because it _is_ ridiculous, take note and raise the quality of your discourse accordingly next time you start a thread about how that evil man John Cage killed music, you really do look that stupid.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> I rated this thread five stars, the OP is a wholly accurate satire of the garbage modern music fans are confronted with every time some pig ignorant goon decides they've got it all figured out and they're going to share their brilliant insights with the world. If what samm says seems ridiculous it's because it _is_ ridiculous, take note and raise the quality of your discourse accordingly next time you start a thread about how that evil man John Cage killed music, you really do look that stupid.


For some, it would be Schoenberg that killed music.  And once again getting worked up because someone doesn't like modern music. This thread didn't bother me at all. Was quite comical actually.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*The joke is on us.*



Crudblud said:


> I rated this thread five stars, the OP is a wholly accurate satire of the garbage modern music fans are confronted with every time some pig ignorant goon decides they've got it all figured out and they're going to share their brilliant insights with the world. If what samm says seems ridiculous it's because it _is_ ridiculous, take note and raise the quality of your discourse accordingly next time you start a thread about how that evil man John Cage killed music, you really do look that stupid.


I was having similar suspicions myself. 'samm' has been a member since July, 2011. Although he has only submitted a handful of posts, I am sure he is aware of all of the silly discussions that have occured here. It appears that he is pulling a fast one on us.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

It seems a good thing that I missed what was originally posted.

Haters come and go but the greatness of Wolfgang endures.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Skilmarilion said:


> It seems a good thing that I missed what was originally posted.
> 
> Haters come and go but the greatness of Wolfgang endures.




Haters tend to go more quickly than the average; hating is bad for the health.


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## Geo Dude (May 22, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> For some, it would be Schoenberg that killed music.


_Now_ we're getting somewhere!


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

Geo Dude said:


> Three, actually.


Make that four!  Ah Mozart, one of the very few composers who Bach actually saw in his rear view mirror.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Muddy said:


> Make that four!  Ah Mozart, one of the very few composers who Bach actually saw in his rear view mirror.


Aaah, stop generalizing so much, everyone has their own favourite composers - I like Bach and see why he's good, but I prefer Telemann.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Aaah, stop generalizing so much, everyone has their own favourite composers - I like Bach and see why he's good, but I prefer Telemann.


Love Tafelmusik.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

In honor of this thread. Bad Mozart! Bad BAD Mozart! Just look at that rug! You're sleeping outside tonight, Wolfie...


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> In honor of this thread. Bad Mozart! Bad BAD Mozart! Just look at that rug! You're sleeping outside tonight, Wolfie...


was the parallel to the Big Lebowsky intentional?


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> Love Tafelmusik.


still need to get that one - although I've heard it and really liked it. Do you have Goebel's complete set?


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Aaah, stop generalizing so much, everyone has their own favourite composers - I like Bach and see why he's good, but I prefer Telemann.


Did I forget to write, in my opinion? Not being God, I would think that should be implied.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I bought this one.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Muddy said:


> Did I forget to write, in my opinion? Not being God, I would think that should be implied.


no, no problem, but it's just that you hear it all the time - Bach and Mozart are the 'greatest' but in the end a lot of it is subjective too and depends on the listener and what he/she is looking for.


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## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

Oh god... Why are there people who like this composer. They are CRAZY. It is a fact Mozart was awful. Listen to his piano concerto all light and fancy. No substance. People who like him are absolutely MAD.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

samm said:


> Oh god... Why are there people who like this composer. They are CRAZY. It is a fact Mozart was awful. Listen to his piano concerto all light and fancy. No substance. People who like him are absolutely MAD.


How dare you..... . Mozart's piano concertos are excellent. No substance.


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

samm said:


> Oh god... Why are there people who like this composer. They are CRAZY. It is a fact Mozart was awful. Listen to his piano concerto all light and fancy. No substance. People who like him are absolutely MAD.


Which one? He wrote 27. It is fair to say that Mozart's piano concertos rank as some of his greatest compositions. So it would be helpful to know which one.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

samm said:


> Oh god... Why are there people who like this composer. They are CRAZY. It is a fact Mozart was awful. Listen to his piano concerto all light and fancy. No substance. People who like him are absolutely MAD.


Cool. I like some of his music which in my opinion has substance, a number of the divertimenti I enjoy a little even if they don't have much substance in my opinion. There are only two pieces of music by Mozart that I actually love a lot and they are these:











And on another note, is must be hard and stressful work being so pissed off about Mozart. You musn't be feeling very happy posting here. How about a nice big hug to make you feel better? You may seem to appear to many here as an annoying, hating troll with nothing nice to say here, but I reckon secretly you're soft hearted and and vulnerable inside and would be rather hurt if someone started offending you for liking a composer they hate.

*HUG*

Feel better?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> I rated this thread five stars, the OP is a wholly accurate satire of the garbage modern music fans are confronted with every time some pig ignorant goon decides they've got it all figured out and they're going to share their brilliant insights with the world. If what samm says seems ridiculous it's because it _is_ ridiculous, take note and raise the quality of your discourse accordingly next time you start a thread about how that evil man John Cage killed music, you really do look that stupid.


I completely agree with you and I also rated it 5 stars for that, and also because this thread is just funny! :lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

samm said:


> Oh god... Why are there people who like this composer. They are CRAZY. It is a fact Mozart was awful. Listen to his piano concerto all light and fancy. No substance. People who like him are absolutely MAD.


This comment tells me nothing about Mozart. It does tell me quite a lot about you. But I don't want to repeat my thoughts in public. But I do feel pity for anyone who can say such things!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

samm said:


> Oh god... Why are there people who like this composer. They are CRAZY. It is a fact Mozart was awful. Listen to his piano concerto all light and fancy. No substance. People who like him are absolutely MAD.


A bit like saying Newton was a bad mathematician or Einstein couldn't do physics. statements rooted in ignorance and maybe a desire to be perverse. 
But you are good for a laugh!


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## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

I would like to say sorry to anyone I have offended. It is just my opinion. I know I have been a bit harsh in the way I have phrased some of my previous posts. There are a few Mozart pieces I like but not much. I like his requiem and despite my comments about his piano concertos I do like his 20th & 24th ones. I also like his 40th symphony. But, considering how many works he wrote I just feel let down by the fact I like so few.

Also, I suppose it is not a FACT Mozart was a bad composer, merely just an opinion.

Sorry. I hope we can all get on well now.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Cool, it looks like you must like Schumann. Do you?


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## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

I certainly do.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

samm said:


> I would like to say sorry to anyone I have offended. It is just my opinion. I know I have been a bit harsh in the way I have phrased some of my previous posts. There are a few Mozart pieces I like but not much. I like his requiem and despite my comments about his piano concertos I do like his 20th & 24th ones. I also like his 40th symphony. But, considering how many works he wrote I just feel let down by the fact I like so few.
> 
> Also, I suppose it is not a FACT Mozart was a bad composer, merely just an opinion.
> 
> Sorry. I hope we can all get on well now.


You have not offended me. I just think you are dead wrong!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

samm said:


> I would like to say sorry to anyone I have offended. It is just my opinion. I know I have been a bit harsh in the way I have phrased some of my previous posts. There are a few Mozart pieces I like but not much. I like his requiem and despite my comments about his piano concertos I do like his 20th & 24th ones. I also like his 40th symphony. But, considering how many works he wrote I just feel let down by the fact I like so few.
> 
> Also, I suppose it is not a FACT Mozart was a bad composer, merely just an opinion.
> 
> Sorry. I hope we can all get on well now.


Not good enough. You are _required_ to like the 9th and 25th piano concertos, and every violin concerto starting with the 3rd - including the two he didn't actually compose. Also, you have until September 1st to like the "Haydn" string quartets.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Not good enough. You are _required_ to like the 9th and 25th piano concertos, and every violin concerto starting with the 3rd - including the two he didn't actually compose.


Exactly, and also the Flute & Harp Concerto 299/297c.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

samm said:


> I would like to say sorry to anyone I have offended. It is just my opinion. I know I have been a bit harsh in the way I have phrased some of my previous posts. There are a few Mozart pieces I like but not much. I like his requiem and despite my comments about his piano concertos I do like his 20th & 24th ones. I also like his 40th symphony. But, considering how many works he wrote I just feel let down by the fact I like so few.
> 
> Also, I suppose it is not a FACT Mozart was a bad composer, merely just an opinion.
> 
> Sorry. I hope we can all get on well now.


I think my hug worked.

Judging from this post, I think you might actually enjoy the two works I posted earlier.


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## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Not good enough. You are _required_ to like the 9th and 25th piano concertos, and every violin concerto starting with the 3rd - including the two he didn't actually compose. Also, you have until September 1st to like the "Haydn" string quartets.


Well... I already like the string quartets.


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## Ondine (Aug 24, 2012)

samm said:


> I would like to say sorry to anyone I have offended. It is just my opinion. I know I have been a bit harsh in the way I have phrased some of my previous posts. There are a few Mozart pieces I like but not much. I like his requiem and despite my comments about his piano concertos I do like his 20th & 24th ones. I also like his 40th symphony. But, considering how many works he wrote I just feel let down by the fact I like so few.
> 
> Also, I suppose it is not a FACT Mozart was a bad composer, merely just an opinion.
> 
> Sorry. I hope we can all get on well now.


Don't worry. I love Mozart over all other composers before and after him. So, opinions are opinions. The listening experience is the most important thing about music. It is all about that.

If someone says Mozart is crap music, what can I do with that. Nothing. Every single piece -mayor or minor- of Mozart's music is for me an absolute gem of perfection. That can not be changed with opinions but with my process and evolution as a listener.

But, on the other side, opinions are always welcome because makes me know the listening experience of other people. And I like that.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Cool. I like some of his music which in my opinion has substance, a number of the divertimenti I enjoy a little even if they don't have much substance in my opinion. There are only two pieces of music by Mozart that I actually love a lot and they are these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You were pretty into the Magic Flute for quite awhile weren't you? Did that one lose it's appeal or do you still enjoy it?


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## nightscape (Jun 22, 2013)

samm said:


> It is a fact.
> 
> Mozart wrote intentionally bad music.


Take a cue from this guy:



samm said:


> There are a few Mozart pieces I like...like his requiem and despite my comments about his piano concertos I do like his 20th & 24th ones. I also like his 40th symphony.


....oh.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Looks like I missed all the fun. Why doesn't anybody tell me about these threads?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

samm said:


> Oh god... Why are there people who like this composer. They are CRAZY. It is a fact Mozart was awful. Listen to his piano concerto all light and fancy. No substance. People who like him are absolutely MAD.


 I don't subscribe to the idea that only music that is heavy, "difficult", depressing and makes you want to jump of the nearest bridge has substance.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

jhar26 said:


> I don't subscribe to the idea that only music that is heavy, "difficult", depressing and makes you want to jump of the nearest bridge has substance.


That is the sort of music I tend to avoid! I can do without such 'substance' as there are enough things to depress you in real life if you let them! No, music should be escapism!


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I think my hug worked.
> 
> Judging from this post, I think you might actually enjoy the two works I posted earlier.


Yep, your hug definitely worked. I think samm is a bit of a softie.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Sonata said:


> You were pretty into the Magic Flute for quite awhile weren't you? Did that one lose it's appeal or do you still enjoy it?


I do, but I like those pieces way better.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

DavidA said:


> That is the sort of music I tend to avoid! I can do without such 'substance' as there are enough things to depress you in real life if you let them! No, *music should be* escapism!


I see. Thank god music is not a republic, because there are many who want to be the dictators of that republic!.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

aleazk said:


> I see. Thank god music is not a republic, because there are many who want to be the dictators of that republic!.


That was uncalled for.


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## Geo Dude (May 22, 2013)

Geo Dude said:


> _Now_ we're getting somewhere!


Well damn, I was hoping that someone would have taken the bait so this thread could have had hit twelve pages by now instead of six.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

samm said:


> It is a fact.
> 
> Mozart wrote intentionally bad music.


Troll alert detected at the first post. The windows will now close and explode.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

peeyaj said:


> Troll alert detected at the first post. The windows will now close and explode.


Windows that explode when you close them seem highly impractical.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I don't like Mozart's music but I don't understand the need, or reason, for creating a thread such as this one. It serves no purpose other than to pick at the emotions of those who _do love_ his music. A moderator would do well to go ahead and shut this thing down before it gets out-of-hand.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

aleazk said:


> I see. Thank god music is not a republic, because there are many who want to be the dictators of that republic!.


Oh I see. Giving one's opinion is being a dictator? I thought that was the democratic right of everyone on this board!


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Oh I see. Giving one's opinion is being a dictator? I thought that was the democratic right of everyone on this board!


Who the heck are you to dictate what music _should_ be?. If you have your own personal ideas of what music _should_ be, then I invite you to compose your own music, you can realize all your ideas there...


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## musicphotogAnimal (Jul 24, 2012)

I believe this person dislikes Mozart simply because his composer's most remembered work was a deceptively simplistic (yet tonally complicated) piece dedicated towards children... "Traumerai". While Mozart is remembered for a whole passel of works. I believe he has Mozart envy and projects his envy by deriding Mozart's works.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

aleazk said:


> Who the heck are you to dictate what music _should_ be?. If you have your own personal ideas of what music _should_ be, then I invite you to compose your own music, you can realize all your ideas there...


It's an opinion. Not an order.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

aleazk said:


> Who the heck are you to dictate what music _should_ be?


Music should be written to suit my personal tastes. Thus I so dictate! So sue me. :lol:


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I also prefer escapism. Thus why I tend to like the Classical Era. A time where music was a good way to escape whatever bad things were going on at that time.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2013)

aleazk said:


> I see. Thank god music is not a republic, because there are many who want to be the dictators of that republic!.


If it's not a republic, what is it? A constitutional monarchy with KenOC as king and neoshredder as the Young Pretender? :lol:



DavidA said:


> Oh I see. Giving one's opinion is being a dictator? I thought that was the democratic right of everyone on this board!


What? To be a dictator? I should say so!


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> If it's not a republic, what is it? A constitutional monarchy with KenOC as king and neoshredder as the Young Pretender? :lol:
> 
> What? To be a dictator? I should say so!


It's just a few sharing their opinions. And btw you are not funny.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

neoshredder said:


> I also prefer escapism. Thus why I tend to like the Classical Era. A time where music was a good way to escape whatever bad things were going on at that time.


But why can't it be seen as the Enlightenment optimism of the time (which also went into the baroque era), rather than escapism. People were more optimistic of the future perhaps, maybe that's hard for us to relate to now.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

starry said:


> But why can't it be seen as the Enlightenment optimism of the time (which also went into the baroque era), rather than escapism. People were more optimistic of the future perhaps, maybe that's hard for us to relate to now.


Good point. I like the sound of optimism better. Yep that was the Age of Enlightenment.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

DavidA said:


> Oh I see. Giving one's opinion is being a dictator? I thought that was the democratic right of everyone on this board!


No, it's only democratic if you express something they agree with.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> It's just a few sharing their opinions. And btw you are not funny.


Yet if I didn't insert that stupid emoticon, some here would think I was being serious....

....I see you did anyway!


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

There are about 5-6 Mozart threads with (pretty much) the same topic going on - c'mon, post something on the Telemann thread .


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> Good point. I like the sound of optimism better. Yep that was the Age of Enlightenment.


Indeed, we seem to have lost our optimism. In science fiction, utopias were changing to dystopias starting 80 years ago. The optimistic views of Europe-based societies, from the enlightenment and extending through the modernists of the 1920s, were turning to ash.

The West had lost its dream of the perfectibility of man. As early as 1924, a review of the Rite of Spring called it "the expression of one who is fundamentally a barbarian and a primitive, tinctured with, and educated in, the utmost sophistications and satieties of a worn-out civilization."


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

musicphotogAnimal said:


> I believe this person dislikes Mozart simply because his composer's most remembered work was a deceptively simplistic (yet tonally complicated) piece dedicated towards children... "Traumerai". While Mozart is remembered for a whole passel of works. I believe he has Mozart envy and projects his envy by deriding Mozart's works.


Well, I am sure samm knows that Schumann wrote much better music than that.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

One testament to Wolferl's greatness is that just about any musician, (or wannabe / hopeful musician) who picks up a pencil, pen, or enters even just two notes into a computer has this behemoth infamously famous composer of such genius and quality looming over them, haunting them from history, whose works are still regularly performed, loved and revered, that to set down just a few notes of anything in any shape or form is a wholly defiant and rather brave act.

Of course, Ziggy would have something to zay about ze young perzon who feels the need to say, on a public forum, that Mozart wrote bad music. (...some analogy about killing one's father, etc.) After all, realizing the full brunt of the fact of Mozart could leave any hopeful musician in one of the greater states of despair known to mankind.

But saying Mozart wrote bad music is for the very naive or very brave - since it instantly reveals the writer has little or no idea what real and good (non-pop) music is.

Perhaps the author of the OP had the hopes to make the book of records by being the youngest composer to compose an opera, only to find out that Mozart did that at age twelve, or thereabouts


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## korenbloem (Nov 5, 2012)

I like mozart! 

But I always like to compare the guy with 'the Beatles', not because of his art. But with there fans and haters. The Beatles are being praised (by there fans, and commen people) as the greatest revolution in (pop) music ever. I put pop music between (), because when you go in to a discussion with people about the beatles and their importance and depth of their art, they always narrow the greatness of the beatles tot only pop music, and to clear out: frank zappa, velvet underground, bob dylan etc dont belong to pop music then. 

Mozart is mostly the same angle: Most people know 3 people of classical music: Bach (old guy, with fast rithmes and contrapoints and some choir music), Mozart (melodic, and duet singing) Beethoven (serious and heavy classical).
Mozart is a great introducer for classical music and allot of his minor pieces are not far from the pop reportaire like the beatles. 
When People only like to eat sweet things, eating a lemon for the first time is then well: very pickle.

Also because most people (non classical music addicts) will repsond with: "Mozart", when someone asked them what kind of composers they like, because he is the most knowed and easies to listen.

But Mozart bad music? Yes he made some very boring pieces (so did beethoven, liggeti, haydn or even J.s. Bach), but in the greater scheme of things the guy made: Cossi fan tute, don giovanni, a kleine nacht music, his symphony jupiter. His piano concerto's, symp 36-42 and a lott more. For any of those pieces I mentioned: the guy (Mozart) deserves a place in my collection, No doubt! 

And when people ask: "what kind of composers do you like?" I wont name mozart immediately. But when they ask directly about him I will respond: "Of course!".


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

korenbloem said:


> I like mozart!
> 
> Most people know 3 people of classical music: Bach (old guy, with *fast rhythms*and conterpoint and some choir music), Mozart (melodic, and duet singing) Beethoven (serious and heavy classical). ....


Advance apologies _for being such a pedant_ but your "fast rhythms" is such a common error and misconception, I wanted to post on it.

_There is no such thing as 'a fast rhythm."_

Rhythm is the placement, by the lengths of their durations (regular or alternating), of one note after another. Ergo: Where in time, occurring on that time line, is what Rhythm is.

Tempo is the running speed of the pulse.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

I personally like Mozart's music but I can see why some would prefer other composers. 
Mozart seems to lack a really original style. Sure, he developed some musical style but it is very similar to other composers of the time. Other composers such as Beethoven, later Brahms, Chopin and Schumann have much more unique styles.

But still, Mozart was a great composer.


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## musicphotogAnimal (Jul 24, 2012)

I guess you would say that Mozart's piano sonata #12, K.332, passaged shades of Beethoven? Me, personally, I don't see it. He did have his own unique style. Of course, I'd have to defer to a musicologist to give you the specifics. I flunked Music History.  I did give Dr. Barrington-Foote a number of the grey hairs that he now sports.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2013)

The 'problem' with Mozart is that he sounds just like...Mozart. If you don't like the sound, that's a problem. If you do, it isn't. The same 'problem' applies to many (most? all?) other composers.

I listened to Mozart's 'Haffner' last night on the Proms, and found it to be just what I expected (given that I'm not familiar with this symphony). It sounded just like Mozart, and I enjoyed it. It was neither 'bad' nor 'good' - but then I wouldn't use these terms to describe either the music or my experience of it.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> Yet if I didn't insert that stupid emoticon, some here would think I was being serious....
> 
> ....I see you did anyway!


The emoticon you chose did not support your implied purpose. "Laughing out loud" lol is apt to suggest derision. Even to a Texan - or maybe especially to a Texan?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Advance apologies _for being such a pedant_ but your "fast rhythms" is such a common error and misconception, I wanted to post on it.
> 
> Rhythm is the placement, by the lengths of their durations (regular or alternating), of one note after another. Ergo: Where in time, occurring on that time line, is what Rhythm is.


That is what I call a turbid definition. 

You are of course disadvantaged by not being a hillbilly. We would say something like: Rhythms are allowed to vary from simple to intricate; _tempos_ get to be slow or fast or middlin'.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2013)

Hilltroll72 said:


> The emoticon you chose did not support your implied purpose. "Laughing out loud" is apt to suggest derision. Even to a Texan - or maybe especially to a Texan?


One reason why I prefer not to use emoticons - they are just as prone to misunderstanding as not using them. Anyone with a gram of commonsense (I know, I know, "No True Scotsman") would know that what I was really responding to was aleazk's notion of music as 'not a republic' - and, therefore, what kind of state it might more readily resemble. Noting Ken's own post about wanting to dictate (and his preferred posting style, which is ofetn humorous) he seemed the logical choice for king.

Given that neo and I have previously struggeld to come to terms with each other's virtual presence in the same thread, I guess it was an error on my part to refer to him at all, never mind in jocular fashion.

So, for Texans, non-Texans and anyone who can't decide their status vis a vis the USA's Lone Star State...

:tiphat: :angel: :devil:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

aleazk said:


> Who the heck are you to dictate what music _should_ be?. If you have your own personal ideas of what music _should_ be, then I invite you to compose your own music, you can realize all your ideas there...


Can't you accept an opinion of what someone else's preferences are? And how can I possibly dictate what other people listen to by giving my opinion on a website? And when on earth does giving one's preference for what one likes to listen to put one under the obligation of composing music oneself? Seems to me a little lacking in logic! 
Please note this is a forum where people give their opinions of what they like. That's all. So please do not feel so threatened.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Burroughs said:


> Sure, he developed some musical style but it is very similar to other composers of the time. Other composers such as Beethoven, later Brahms, Chopin and Schumann have much more unique styles.
> 
> But still, Mozart was a great composer.


That's just because the Romantic period didn't really have only one style. In some ways that can be a strength, but in others it's a weakness.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

starry said:


> That's just because the Romantic period didn't really have only one style. In some ways that can be a strength, but in others it's a weakness.


Yeah not too fond of some of the styles in the Romantic Era. Yes it is more origiinal. That doesn't exactly make it more enjoyable.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

The problem could be there just end up being a lot of dead ends with not many composers pursuing a similar style, so the development of a music could be more limited. Who built on what some of those composers did, like Beethoven built on Haydn, or Schubert on Beethoven, or Mozart on his contemporaries?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Neo Romanza said:


> I don't like Mozart's music but I don't understand the need, or reason, for creating a thread such as this one. It serves no purpose other than to pick at the emotions of those who _do love_ his music. A moderator would do well to go ahead and shut this thing down before it gets out-of-hand.


That's only if you believe this thread is real in the first place.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

What is it about Mozart that makes him such a polarizing figure, though?

I'm sure we could all conjure up arguments about every composer that he or she has unwarranted popularity. Or?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Novelette said:


> What is it about Mozart that makes him such a polarizing figure, though?


Before I came to TC I thought that Mozart and to a slightly lesser extent Beethoven were essentially universally adored within classical music circles. I remember reading in Goulding's book, Classical Music, "It is not really possible to dislike Mozart's music."

Of course I can now understand someone being less than bowled over by Mozart, but it certainly was an eye-opener for me to read those who didn't love his music.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Neo Romanza said:


> I don't like Mozart's music but I don't understand the need, or reason, for creating a thread such as this one. It serves no purpose other than to pick at the emotions of those who _do love_ his music. A moderator would do well to go ahead and shut this thing down before it gets out-of-hand.


Well it's only an internet forum. There's not much point taking all threads deadly seriously. You could say 'I hate Beethoven' or a thread on JS Bach is only rated because of a few pieces are just as useless. But what makes a thread useless are silly petty squabbles, if people manage to actually twist a thread to more interesting discussion it can perhaps beat the potential troll-like intentions that may have started it. Those who just judge a thread by the title rather than the discussion are perhaps looking at something from a limited viewpoint, which is normally exactly the hope of the person that created it. Ultimately if someone hates a particular composer and wants to shout it out on a forum then fine, but really why should I care or make them even think I care?


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

mmsbls said:


> Before I came to TC I thought that Mozart and to a slightly lesser extent Beethoven were essentially universally adored within classical music circles. I remember reading in Goulding's book, Classical Music, "It is not really possible to dislike Mozart's music."
> 
> Of course I can now understand someone being less than bowled over by Mozart, but it certainly was an eye-opener for me to read those who didn't love his music.


Yeah. I guess it is their loss. Or maybe it seems like a lot since the ones not liking him seem to be the most vocal about it.


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

The first six pages were funny, now it's just boring. Why oh why did I not discover this thread earlier?  

ut:


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

mmsbls said:


> Before I came to TC I thought that Mozart and to a slightly lesser extent Beethoven were essentially universally adored within classical music circles. I remember reading in Goulding's book, Classical Music, "It is not really possible to dislike Mozart's music."
> 
> Of course I can now understand someone being less than bowled over by Mozart, but it certainly was an eye-opener for me to read those who didn't love his music.


There's no music anywhere that everyone likes, mainly because most people just go by gut reaction and don't put that much effort in, while at the same time thinking their opinions are of vast importance.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MaestroViolinist said:


> The first six pages were funny, now it's just boring. Why oh why did I not discover this thread earlier?


I wish I had discovered it later. Much later.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> Yeah not too fond of some of the styles in the Romantic Era. Yes it is more origiinal. That doesn't exactly make it more enjoyable.


I agree here - personally, I like it when there are more 'water marks' for a composition.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

mmsbls said:


> Before I came to TC I thought that Mozart and to a slightly lesser extent Beethoven were essentially universally adored within classical music circles. I remember reading in Goulding's book, Classical Music, "It is not really possible to dislike Mozart's music."
> 
> Of course I can now understand someone being less than bowled over by Mozart, but it certainly was an eye-opener for me to read those who didn't love his music.


I don't consider him among my top five favorites, but I appreciate his music. I used to be somewhat hostile, but I came to realize that there are more pressing concerns in my life than to get so upset over a composer. Love or hate, no matter, but the active intensity of these feelings is what surprises me.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Novelette said:


> What is it about Mozart that makes him such a polarizing figure, though?
> 
> I'm sure we could all conjure up arguments about every composer that he or she has unwarranted popularity. Or?


Novelette, do you speak German by any chance?


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Novelette, do you speak German by any chance?


I'm afraid not, HaydnBearstheClock. I intend to learn it one of these days, though.  As much time as I've spent in Germany, one would think that I'd have endeavored to learn it. A fair number phrases, a basic grasp of the grammar system, a very basic vocabulary--this is all, I'm afraid.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

jhar26 said:


> I don't subscribe to the idea that only music that is heavy, "difficult", depressing and makes you want to jump of the nearest bridge has substance.


Exactly. I'm quoting this because I think everyone should read what you wrote again.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Novelette said:


> I'm afraid not, HaydnBearstheClock. I intend to learn it one of these days, though.  As much time as I've spent in Germany, one would think that I'd have endeavored to learn it. A fair number phrases, a basic grasp of the grammar system, a very basic vocabulary--this is all, I'm afraid.


I guess I was tricked by the 'or?' - Germans usually say that at the end of phrases - 'oder?', which translates into 'or' - didn't know that the English did this as well.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Yeah. I guess it is their loss. Or maybe it seems like a lot since the ones not liking him seem to be the most vocal about it.


Perhaps it's a social mania? Someone on this forum once termed this vocally contrarian position, "musical hipsterism."

It would be fun to do a little test: we choose a relatively obscure composer and divide into camps of fanatics and bitter opponents. We can troll one another, and see if it catches on! It would be fun, whether or not it proves anything.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Novelette said:


> It would be fun to do a little test: we choose a relatively obscure composer and divide into camps of fanatics and bitter opponents. We can troll one another, and see if it catches on! It would be fun, whether or not it proves anything.


"Relatively obscure," huh? Let me think... I have it! Wagner!


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

Novelette said:


> It would be fun to do a little test: we choose a relatively obscure composer and divide into camps of fanatics and bitter opponents. We can troll one another, and see if it catches on! It would be fun, whether or not it proves anything.


How can anyone appreciate Molique over Volkmann? One was a misunderstood genius, the other a silly mountebank!


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Novelette said:


> I don't consider him among my top five favorites, but I appreciate his music. I used to be somewhat hostile, but I came to realize that there are more pressing concerns in my life than to get so upset over a composer. Love or hate, no matter, but the active intensity of these feelings is what surprises me.


If people find they don't immediately like what most other people think is good maybe they get antagonistic, like they are shut out of some club and then they take it out on the composer. I still don't get why people see music as having to be about social clubs/elitism though.


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## Geo Dude (May 22, 2013)

Cheyenne said:


> How can anyone appreciate Molique over Volkmann? One was a misunderstood genius, the other a silly mountebank!


A member at another classical forum I used to visit made a similar comment (he was serious, though) referring to Schoenberg and Sibelius. (Sibelius was the mountebank.)


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## TrevBus (Jun 6, 2013)

moody said:


> I would leave it and say nothing.


What he said. However, it did provide SOME giggles.


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