# Bach's Mass in B minor



## Apricot (Feb 9, 2019)

Hey guys,

I never studied music history. Was planning on listening to Bach's Mass in B minor.
Will somebody explain the meaning of the music, points of interest, allegories or symbolisms?

Thank you.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Bach's mass in B Minor makes use of the Latin (Catholic) Mass text. Unusual, for a protestant (Lutheran) composer. It didn't withhold Bach from composing one of the most powerful (wonderful) masses. The translation of the wording of the latin mass should be everywhere on the internet. The symbolism in the text is the essence of Christian religion

Examples:
Gloria in Excelsis Deo: Glory to God
Et in terra pax: Peace on earth for people of good will
Et resurexit: Resurrection from the dead
Agnus Dei: Lamb of God
Dona Nobis Pacem: Grant us Peace

The incredible movements, transitions (from Crucifixion to Resurrection or from Glory to God to Peace on Earth....!) and richness of this work is best to explore by just listening. Be blessed that you are going to enter into this world of music.

I can highly recommend the astonishing version of this mass as conducted by Ton Koopman, with his own Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra and Choir in 1995. This is my absolute favourite, as it strikes exactly the right tone and yet has wonderful dynamics and life in it. I would sure hope that you listen to a so called original instruments version by a baroque specialist, as the full blown traditional versions are like quicksand, slow and heavy. 








Enjoy!!!


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Just noticed this one at Amazon ASIN: B0050TOVLK , at an absolute steal for €16, it includes the two passions and the mass, you don't need more religious music than this on a desert island


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

NLAdriaan said:


> Bach's mass in B Minor makes use of the Latin (Catholic) Mass text. Unusual, for a protestant (Lutheran) composer. It didn't withhold Bach from composing one of the most powerful (wonderful) masses. The translation of the wording of the latin mass should be everywhere on the internet. The symbolism in the text is the essence of Christian religion
> 
> Examples:
> Gloria in Excelsis Deo: Glory to God
> ...


The fact Bach wax a Lutheran did not stop him setting the mass text. In fact he wrote shorter, Kutheran masses to the same text. The wording of the mass is pretty universal Christian belief anyway, albeit in Latin


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Did Bach’s church ever use all five parts of the ordinary, on special days for example? What was the function (if any) of the Credo, Sanctus and Agnus Dei in his church?


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Did Bach's church ever use all five parts of the ordinary, on special days for example? What was the function (if any) of the Credo, Sanctus and Agnus Dei in his church?


All five parts of the Mass ordinary were used in the main Leipzig service, the Hauptgottesdienst, in Bach's day. The five main parts of the Ordinary-Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei-had been accepted in the Formula missae of 1526 and in the Augsburg Confession of 1530. And it had been stipulated that there should be no changes to the public celebration of the Mass except for the addition of German hymn paraphrases, such as 'Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr' for the Gloria or 'Wir glauben all an einen Gott' for the Credo. As far as settings of the Mass are concerned, there was at that time much common ground between Lutheran and Catholic composers. This applies especially to the abbreviated Mass, the Kyrie and Gloria (all of Bach's five Mass settings of the 1730s, BWV 232-6, belong to this 'Missa' type). Owing to the increasing size of concerted settings of the Mass, it became the custom within the Lutheran Church-and often in the Catholic Church too-to perform only the Kyrie and Gloria in polyphonic settings during services, leaving the Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei to monophonic rendition.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Apricot said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I never studied music history. Was planning on listening to Bach's Mass in B minor.
> Will somebody explain the meaning of the music, points of interest, allegories or symbolisms?
> ...


Oh, shucks. I don't have the time for all that, but I can share just a few things that I have written in my score. If I have anything wrong, maybe someone can correct me.

Albert Schweitzer called it both Catholic because of its objective chorales and Protestant because of its intimate and personal pieces.

I have a note, I don't know who from, that it is in 7 keys, the number 7 representing the church. B minor represents human pain. D major represents worldly power and glory. G minor is tragic; F# minor is transcendent suffering; A major is joy and grace; E minor represents the crucifixion; and G major represents blessedness.

The Kyrie opens in B minor with a banner headline, with the whole choir crying together for mercy. Then the orchestra begins a tentative melody which dips frequently, both representing sighing and also how one bows as they approach a king.

The Christe is in D major. If the church is the bride of Christ, there is no fear, because he died for her. So when she turns to Christ to ask for mercy, it sounds like she is flirting with him.

The second Kyrie is in F# minor, a fugue in the transcendent suffering key, moving from the lowest voice to the highest.

So the three keys, b, d, f# form a b minor triad.

The Gloria is in D major, and the violins and trumpets are in their most open keys. This is extroverted music, with angels singing what I have noted as a Christmas hymn. (I wish I wrote my source down.) The oboe d'amore of the first section is replaced with the more powerful oboe.

Laudamus Te is a melismatic and expressive aria with a soloist and string quartet in A.

The Gratis agimus is a working of Cantata BVW 29 with four-part canons in stile antico in D. This is echoed at the end of the mass also.

Domine Deus is in G, a duet either between God and Christ or angels addressing the Father and Son. The words "Domine Deus" have the same falling motives of the first movement, addressing the Father with respect. Instead of concluding this as a da capo aria, Qui Tollis is inserted in B minor. This is from Cantata No. 46 and has a dark, veiled quality. There are no first sopranos; the second soprano is in the top voice. This is the church begging God's son to receive their prayer.

Skipping to the Credo, numerologically, Credo is 43, and there are 43 entrances of the melody. It has 8 movements in an arch with the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection in the middle. The bass line is a step-like pattern, reflecting those who have followed the faith. The key is D, though the tenor is singing Gregorian chant in the Mixolydian mode. It develops into a 7-voice fugue.

Skipping again to the Et Incarnatus Est is in B minor, the orchestra plays a repeated pattern of C#-D-A#-B, which, if you draw a line, forms a cross. "Et incarnatus" is a melodic figure which steps down,It reflecting Christ coming down to us. It is in 5 parts because there are 5 wounds of Christ. It is 49 bars long, or 7 x 7, the number of the church.

The Crucifixus is a passacaglia, repeating 13 times, representing the 12 apostles and Christ. It is a reworking of BWV 12 and is in E minor. The bass line is called a lamento bass, which was popular among composers. Again, there are no first sopranos.

Et Resurrexit is a burst of energy in D major and is one of Bach's masterpieces.

Skipping to the Sanctus in D, it has six voices, representing the six wings of the seraphim. The high voices float like winged creatures.

Hosanna is in D, from BMV 215. Its original text was "Long Live the King." It starts in unison, then goes into a fugato.

Skipping head, the Dona Nobis ends not in B minor but D major, reflecting the peace that comes from glorifying God.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

You're getting good responses here, and here is another thread on this topic.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> All five parts of the Mass ordinary were used in the main Leipzig service, the Hauptgottesdienst, in Bach's day. The five main parts of the Ordinary-Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei-had been accepted in the Formula missae of 1526 and in the Augsburg Confession of 1530. And it had been stipulated that there should be no changes to the public celebration of the Mass except for the addition of German hymn paraphrases, such as 'Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr' for the Gloria or 'Wir glauben all an einen Gott' for the Credo. As far as settings of the Mass are concerned, there was at that time much common ground between Lutheran and Catholic composers. This applies especially to the abbreviated Mass, the Kyrie and Gloria (all of Bach's five Mass settings of the 1730s, BWV 232-6, belong to this 'Missa' type). Owing to the increasing size of concerted settings of the Mass, it became the custom within the Lutheran Church-and often in the Catholic Church too-to perform only the Kyrie and Gloria in polyphonic settings during services, leaving the Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei to monophonic rendition.


In 2013 Michael Maul published research suggesting the possibility that Bach compiled the Mass in B minor for performance in Vienna at St. Stephen's Cathedral (which was Roman Catholic) on St. Cecilia's Day in 1749, as a result of his association with Count Johann Adam von Questenberg. (source: Wikipedia)

The suggested content of the Lutheran Hauptgottesdienst and the Formulae Messa (1523) was replaced with the Deutsche Messe (1526). This all happened more then 100 years before Bach composed the Mass in B minor. The (universal Christian) religious principles maybe recognized in both (as to this day), but the crucial difference with the Latin (Catholic) mass was that in the Lutheran (protestant) church, the order of the service was only a suggestion but in any case the word is explained in native language, facing the people. The latin mass was/is first of all not in the native language, was not to be changed and the entire mass is offered facing the Altar, ie facing God, with the back turned to the people. Quite a fundamental difference. Therefore, the Mass in B minor remains a stranger in Bachs Oeuvre. The theory that this work was composed for a Catholic purpose, is therefor quite logic. And to this day the Protestant service in European Churches is faced towards the people and the content is merely up to the congregation and reverend. There is no worldly power structure such as the Vatican.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I wouldn't worry about the text and the meaning of the text that much. When I started with classical music, I tried to get into the text of some of these masses and was dissapointed - notably Mass in B minor, Mozart's Requiem, Monteverdi Vespers, Zelenka's Responsoria etc. It is mostly the standardized Latin mass, sometimes there are some random psalms from the Book of psalms. In Mass in B minor, due to polyphony and heavy repeating, one latin sentence can get stretched into several minutes of singing. The text actually REDUCED my appreciation of the work and DECREASED the perceived depth of those works in my case.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Jacck said:


> I wouldn't worry about the text and the meaning of the text that much. When I started with classical music, I tried to get into the text of some of these masses and was dissapointed - notably Mass in B minor, Mozart's Requiem, Monteverdi Vespers, Zelenka's Responsoria etc. It is mostly the standardized Latin mass, sometimes there are some random psalms from the Book of psalms. In Mass in B minor, due to polyphony and heavy repeating, one latin sentence can get stretched into several minutes of singing. The text actually REDUCED my appreciation of the work and DECREASED the perceived depth of those works in my case.


I think the interesting question with regard to the text is how Bach's music relates to it. Is he using the music to express the text, like a preacher may use the tone of his voice, the rhythms of his speech, to convince, to persuade, to get the ideas across? Or is he using music to help the listener pray? Or what?

The text of the mass is an enormous problem to set -- because so much of it is prosaic. Think of the Credo!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Jacck said:


> I wouldn't worry about the text and the meaning of the text that much. When I started with classical music, I tried to get into the text of some of these masses and was dissapointed - notably Mass in B minor, Mozart's Requiem, Monteverdi Vespers, Zelenka's Responsoria etc. It is mostly the standardized Latin mass, sometimes there are some random psalms from the Book of psalms. In Mass in B minor, due to polyphony and heavy repeating, one latin sentence can get stretched into several minutes of singing. The text actually REDUCED my appreciation of the work and DECREASED the perceived depth of those works in my case.


It's how Bach sets the Latin text that is worth discovering. The form of music he uses to illustrate the text


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> I think the interesting question with regard to the text is how Bach's music relates to it. Is he using the music to express the text, like a preacher may use the tone of his voice, the rhythms of his speech, to convince, to persuade, to get the ideas across? Or is he using music to help the listener pray? Or what?
> 
> The text of the mass is an enormous problem to set -- because so much of it is *prosaic. Think of the Credo!*


The Crdeo? Prosaic?


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I think the interesting question with regard to the text is how Bach's music relates to it. Is he using the music to express the text, like a preacher may use the tone of his voice, the rhythms of his speech, to convince, to persuade, to get the ideas across? Or is he using music to help the listener pray? Or what?
> 
> The text of the mass is an enormous problem to set -- because so much of it is prosaic. Think of the Credo!


that is of course true, and Bach does it in an amazing way, but the text of the Latin mass is not very interesting imho. The St. Matthew Passion is more interesting. There is much more text in the passion and the music works wonderfully to depict the crucifictiion of Jesus


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

NLAdriaan said:


> Bach's mass in B Minor makes use of the Latin (Catholic) Mass text.


The catholic mass text and the text that Bach used are not identical in the gloria and in the sanctus. I can dig out the details if you want. I'm not sure to what extent these textual details would have precluded the use of the mass in a catholic church -- it's a potentially interesting question to explore because it's not at all clear why Bach expanded the earlier (1733) version of the mass -- which just had the Kyrie and the Gloria -- into a full blown five part setting of the ordinary. Did he intend this work for performance?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Jacck said:


> that is of course true, and Bach does it in an amazing way, but the text of the Latin mass is not very interesting imho. The St. Matthew Passion is more interesting. There is much more text in the passion and the music works wonderfully to depict the crucifictiion of Jesus


Of course, but the St Matthew is a drama. The mass is a statement of faith


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> The catholic mass text and the text that Bach used are not identical in the gloria and in the sanctus. I can dig out the details if you want. I'm not sure to what extent these textual details would have precluded the use of the mass in a catholic church -- it's a potentially interesting question to explore because it's not at all clear why Bach expanded the earlier (1733) version of the mass -- which just had the Kyrie and the Gloria -- into a full blown five part setting of the ordinary. Did he intend this work for performance?


Yep, see my earlier posting. Bach almost never wrote music without a 'paying customer'. He also recycled much of his work many times, also in the Mass in B Minor. In that sense the Mass in B minor could probably be seen as a culmination of what Bach thought was his best work to date, he composed (or compiled) the Mass a year before he died.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DavidA said:


> The mass is a statement of faith


 I'm not really sure, that makes the mass sound like preaching. I always thought that a mass was a prayer, a celebration. It's not about stating things or explaining things, it's about communing in a mystery, being touched by the grace of god or some such.

Hopefully someone can elucidate because it may be important for understanding what Bach was trying to achieve in the B minor mass.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> I'm not really sure, that makes the mass sound like preaching. I always thought that a mass was a prayer, a celebration. It's not about stating things or explaining things, it's about communing in a mystery, being touched by the grace of god or some such.
> 
> Hopefully someone can elucidate because it may be important for understanding what Bach was trying to achieve in the B minor mass.


If one composer was able to communicate universal religious or even human values in music, it was Bach. The words he used (being a more abstract latin mass wording or a dramatised passion) are just black and white descriptions for the colour in the music that goes with it.

To me, the emotions found in the b minor mass music are comparable to the emotions found in the passions and in the cantatas. What Bach wanted to achieve, nobody knows. What he actually achieves to anyone listening to this music 270 years later is just astonishing.


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

Astonishing it is.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I always thought that a mass was a prayer, a celebration. It's not about stating things or explaining things, it's about communing in a mystery, being touched by the grace of god or some such.
> 
> Hopefully someone can elucidate because it may be important for understanding what Bach was trying to achieve in the B minor mass.


As a practical matter, Bach wrote the first parts of the Mass, the Kyrie and Gloria, in order to apply for the position as court composer in Dresden in 1733. He was dissatisfied with his position as cantor at St. Thomas in Leipzig, and since the old Elector of Saxony, Friedrich August I (the Strong, 1670-1733), had died that year, and his son, Friedrich August II (1696- 1763), had just been enthroned, Bach offered his services to the new ruler and sent him a letter in the hope that his 'poor composition', i.e. the first half of the B Minor Mass, the Kyrie and the Gloria, would induce his Royal Highness 'to take me under Your Most Mighty Protection.'

Although the pieces were not entirely new (some movements were taken from earlier cantatas), the Mass was a showpiece for Bach's compositional skills. It's clear that he knew the style of Mass composition that was popular in Dresden at his time, and that he tried to compose in a similar idiom. He used, for example, a five part choir, which is unusual in his own compositions but rather frequent in Dresden masses; he composed several movements in the old stile antico, a polyphonic style rooted in the music of the sixteenth century and also popular in some of the masses at the court in Dresden; finally, the division of the Mass into several independent movements alluded to Dresden models as well. Despite Bach's advertisement, saying, 'Take me as your new court composer' his campaign was not successful, and only in 1736 did he receive the title 'court composer'.

On the other hand, for Bach, the ultimate rationale for being a musician was in his words, 'to make a well-sounding harmony to the honor of God and the sanctioned enjoyment of the soul.'


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## Apricot (Feb 9, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Of course, but the St Matthew is a drama. The mass is a statement of faith


Hey, I was wondering what is the relationship, if there is one, between Bach's:

1.) The B minor mass
2.) Saint John Passion
3.) St Matthew Passion

Thank you


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Apricot said:


> Hey, I was wondering what is the relationship, if there is one, between Bach's:
> 
> 1.) The B minor mass
> 2.) Saint John Passion
> ...


All by the same composer?


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## Apricot (Feb 9, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> All by the same composer?


LOL...

I was thinking the Mass was for Easter celebration and Saint John was for good friday. I was wondering if the three works are just separate or when put together they had a special religious significance. I guess you could even add the Christmas Oratorio. I don't know the gospels.

For example,

The Christmas oratorio would be the celebration of the birth of christ? And the B minor mass would be the salvation of Christ? Does John and Matt fit in to the theme?


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