# Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Nikolai Andreyevich Rimsky-Korsakov Is yet another Russian composer; he was known to be a Russian nationalist and used alot of Russian folk tales and music in his compositions; any opinions on this composer? I attended his opera "The Tale of Tsar Saltan' last year and was fascinated; I must say, the whole idea of nationalist music is very promising IMO; would you recommend this composer for me or anyone else? What is your opinion?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Rimsky-Korsakov


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I like him a lot, especially his operas. There are only 2 that I am somewhat familiar with - The Legend of the invisible City of Kitezh and the Golden Cockerel, and they are both great. I like also other Russian operas and think that they are underrated compared to Italin or German opera. Another favorite is Mussorgsky - Khovanshchina, or Lady McBeth by Shostakovich, or The Fiery Angel by Prokofiev. I learned some basic Russian at school and the Czech and Russian languages belong to a similar language family, so I can understand a little Russian, which is an advantage. 

I don't care for nationalism. It think it can be really toxic and brought us several wars. The current russian nationalism is quite sickly too, being manipulated by Putin. Most of the "evil" political parties in the past and also present are nationalistic.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Jacck said:


> I like him a lot, especially his operas. There are only 2 that I am somewhat familiar with - The Legend of the invisible City of Kitezh and the Golden Cockerel, and they are both great. I like also other Russian operas and think that they are underrated compared to Italin or German opera. Another favorite is Mussorgsky - Khovanshchina, or Lady McBeth by Shostakovich, or The Fiery Angel by Prokofiev. I learned some basic Russian at school and the Czech and Russian languages belong to a similar language family, so I can understand a little Russian, which is an advantage.
> 
> I don't care for nationalism. It think it can be really toxic and brought us several wars. The current russian nationalism is quite sickly too, being manipulated by Putin. Most of the "evil" political parties in the past and also present are nationalistic.


I'm getting an 11CD collections of his operas for a good price on Sunday; what other compositions but Rimsky-Korsakov would you recommend me to try and get?


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> I'm getting an 11CD collections of his operas for a good price on Sunday; what other compositions but Rimsky-Korsakov would you recommend me to try and get?


his two best known compositions are Sheherezade and Flight Of The Bumblebee
I also like some of his overtures, for example Christmas Eve (though I never heard the whole opera), and the Russian Easter Overture and Fantasia on Russian Themes
he also wrote 3 symphonies, though I am unfamiliar with those
and a piano concerto and a some chamber music. I heard some of it but just once, and remember it being quite good. I have especially fond remembrance of his sextet and trio


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Jacck said:


> his two best known compositions are Sheherezade and Flight Of The Bumblebee
> I also like some of his overtures, for example Christmas Eve (though I never heard the whole opera), and the Russian Easter Overture and Fantasia on Russian Themes
> he also wrote 3 symphonies, though I am unfamiliar with those
> and a piano concerto and a some chamber music. I heard some of it but just once, and remember it being quite good. I have especially fond remembrance of his sextet and trio


Could I receive more information on the "Christmas eve" opera? How does it relate to Christmas and is it somewhat similar in idea (not story of course) to Tchaikovsky's "The Nutcracker"?


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Don't know much about him other than that he was a master orchestrator. He wrote a still widely read textbook on orchestration. His tone poem Scheherezade is filled with lush textures and theatricality. It's quite good. That's all I've heard of his.


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Could I receive more information on the "Christmas eve" opera? How does it relate to Christmas and is it somewhat similar in idea (not story of course) to Tchaikovsky's "The Nutcracker"?


I know just the Christmas Eve overture, which is very beautiful
but we can read wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Eve_(opera)
it is based on a Gogol short story
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Eve_(Gogol)
and obviously it has some fairy-tales motifs. I don't know how much you are familiar with Russian fairy tales and mythology. I am quite familiar, because I grew up with many russian fairy tales and stories of bogatyrs, flying witches, Koscheithe Immortal etc
Tchaikovsky adapted the same story for his opera Vakula the Smith
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vakula_the_Smith
but best of all, we can listen to the opera


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Rimsky is known especially as a superb orchestrator, and his realization of a somewhat disfugured Boris Godunov after Mussorgsky's death got the opera into the repertoire. That said, Boris being an absolute masterpiece, Rimsky's version is in Technicolor, while Mussorsky's is in a well-shot very subtly graded black-and-white. In whichever version, you should get to know it.


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

probably the best way to familiarize ourselves with the story of the Christmas Eve opera would be to watch this russian movie




if we can find it with english subs


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Jacck said:


> probably the best way to familiarize ourselves with the story of the Christmas Eve opera would be to watch this russian movie
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, I'll watch it later; what did Rimsky-Korsakov write aside of operas? It seems he focused mostly on opera but also some other things; or am I wrong?


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Thank you, I'll watch it later; what did Rimsky-Korsakov write aside of operas? It seems he focused mostly on opera but also some other things; or am I wrong?


R-K's "greatest hits" are these three consecutive opus numbers:

Capriccio Espagnol, Op. 34, 1887
Scheherazade, Op. 35, symphonic suite, 1888
Russian Easter Festival Overture, Op. 36, 1888


----------



## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Rimsky-Korsakov is one of my favorite Russian composers for the reasons we all know. Here there are some CDs I like:


















His best symphony is, IMHO, the 2nd, _Antar_, or sometimes called as a suite. It's in the vein of _Scheherazade_ with its oriental flavour and rich atmosphere. A stunning work.

I don't know his operas yet, but the CD above brings together some suite of his operas, which I find thoroughly charming and colourful.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Antar is indeed a stunning work. It's my favourite piece of RK.


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

KenOC said:


> R-K's "greatest hits" are these three consecutive opus numbers:
> 
> Capriccio Espagnol, Op. 34, 1887
> Scheherazade, Op. 35, symphonic suite, 1888
> Russian Easter Festival Overture, Op. 36, 1888


Those are three pieces by Rimsky that I really love, but I have a nagging regret that his orchestration, while brilliant, was often quite conservative. Hence his (doubtless well-intentioned) over-polishing of Mussorgsky's works, and his famous comment about Sibelius' 3rd Symphony; "Why don't you do it the usual way?".
Rimsky, for all his musical eloquence, was something of a paperweight on the minds of his Russian contemporaries and successors, keeping the colours and modes of late-19th century music in place longer than might otherwise have been the case.
But he did write some lovely music.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

R-K is one of my favorites. The orchestral music, the operas...wonderful. The music for wind band is quite nice, especially the Trombone Concerto. His chamber music is sadly neglected as are the songs, what few he wrote. Others above mentioned most of the big works, but I want to add two that I really enjoy: A Night on Mt. Triglav is a worthy Halloweenish orchestral romp. Thrillingly orchestrated in his best manner. It's neglect is easily explained: the score calls for several Pan Pipes and where do you get the instruments and the players? RK gives details on how they are to be tuned in the preface. Another work worth getting is Pan Voyevoda.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

I see this thread going on a good direction; any other similar Russian composers I might like?


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

There is no one quite like RK - but that's a hallmark of all great composers; they're unique. But there are several Russian composers whose music is clearly indebted to RK and are always satisfying.

First off must be the first two symphonies of *Maximillian Steinberg*. And they both have had terrific recordings with Neeme Jarvi on DG.

The two symphonies of *Vassily Kalinnikov* are wonderful - tuneful, exciting, brilliantly orchestrated. There are several excellent recordings of each, but again, Neeme Jarvi (this time on Chandos) delivers the goods.

*Alexander Grechaninov*, another RK student, turned out a lot of fine music, but the first three symphonies are most clearly aligned with the Russian nationalists. If you like choral music, he wrote some fine works in that genre, too.

Two other composers I have a real fondness for are also RK acolytes:* Anatole Liadov* and *Mikhail Ippolitov-Ivanov*. The former wrote small-scale music and his three masterpieces are Baba Yaga, Kikimora, and The Enchanted Lake. Very atmospheric writing. The Chandos collection of practically all of his orchestral music is highly recommended. Ippolitov-Ivanov was not a great composer. But he did write a once popular and well-known suite: Caucasian Sketches. It uses real folk tunes, scored in the best RK tradition, that he found around the Caucasus Mountain area. I even like the 2nd suite, which isn't nearly as well-known. Another short suite, Turkish Fragments, is delightful - and an ear opener for anyone who knows The Nutcracker. The Naxos disk is probably as good as we're ever going to get. His only symphony is pretty weak.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

^Would it be correct to say most Classical music comes from Germany, Austria and Russia?


----------



## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Some composers related to Rimsky-Korsakov in the exotica are Lyapunov with his symphonic poem _Hashish_, Balakirev with _Tamara_ and Borodin with _The Prince Igor_. Also, some Stravinsky's Russian period works like _The Firebird_, _Symphony in E flat major_, _Feu d'artifice_ and _Scherzo fantastique_. Glazunov has some connection too, so there are plenty of his works to discover. Last but not least, Reinhold Glière is clearly one of those skilled orchestrators as Rimsky-Korsakov. The monumental Symphony No. 3 _Ilya Murometz_, _The Sirens_ (more impressionistic), _Gyul'sara_, _Shakh-Senem_, the _String Octet_, _The Red Poppy_, etc. Russian music is quite a universe of intoxicating music!


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The “Mighty Handful” were five composers most active from 1856 to 1870 in St Petersburg. Their aim was to develop a truly Russian style of classical music, independent of the established Austro-German tradition. They were Mily Balakirev (the leader), César Cui, Modest Mussorgsky, Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov and Alexander Borodin.

Tchaikovsky was generally critical of their efforts, feeling that they had insufficiently studied the techniques that had brought about the dominance of European music. He excepted Rimsky-Korsakov, who he felt had done his homework.

Today we most value R-K, Borodin (who Tchaikovsky claimed could barely write a measure without help, but who somehow left us scads of great music), and Mussorgsky (who lived inside a bottle and whose works were often completed or polished by others). Of these, Tchaikovsky considered Mussorgsky the true genius, though hobbled by alcoholism and lack of training.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

To my ears, the closest thing to R-K is Stravinsky - up through _Firebird_,  so, not for very long, although one can still hear the influence later.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> To my ears, the closest thing to R-K is Stravinsky - up through _Firebird_,  so, not for very long, although one can still hear the influence later.


One of the great unanswerable questions that's haunted me for years is, what would Rimsky have made of Rite of Spring?

I suppose Glazunov deserves a mention. He was a private student of RK, and he sure picked up orchestration well enough. But formally he seems more aligned with Tchaikovsky. The ballets, especially The Seasons, is terrific fun, and seems to straddle a line somewhere between Tchaikovsky and Rimsky.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

KenOC said:


> The "Mighty Handful" were five composers most active from 1856 to 1870 in St Petersburg. Their aim was to develop a truly Russian style of classical music, independent of the established Austro-German tradition. They were Mily Balakirev (the leader), César Cui, Modest Mussorgsky, Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov and Alexander Borodin.
> 
> Tchaikovsky was generally critical of their efforts, feeling that they had insufficiently studied the techniques that had brought about the dominance of European music. He excepted Rimsky-Korsakov, who he felt had done his homework.
> 
> Today we most value R-K, Borodin (who Tchaikovsky claimed could barely write a measure without help, but who somehow left us scads of great music), and Mussorgsky (who lived inside a bottle and whose works were often completed or polished by others). Of these, Tchaikovsky considered Mussorgsky the true genius, though hobbled by alcoholism and lack of training.


Is it true that Tchaikovsky died after some failing affair with a man? Is it even true he was Homosexual but hid it from most people? Was Homosexuality even legal in 19th century Russia?


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Is it true that Tchaikovsky died after some failing affair with a man? Is it even true he was Homosexual but hid it from most people? Was Homosexuality even legal in 19th century Russia?


Theories abound, and no one has definitively proven anything about his death. One theory was that he was diddling a teenage boy who was the son of a prominent family. Rather than face the shame of a public trial, he committed suicide. Tchaikovsky was clearly homosexual - his brother Modest, too. They wrote about it to each each other in code.HERE is a pretty good Wikipedia article on the matter. I've read most of the biographies and they have differing opinions on the matter. I think the simplest answer is still the best: he unwisely drank some unboiled water and that was that. As someone who has spent plenty of time in Mexico and China, trust me, unboiled, or unpurified, water is not something to be careless about! Too bad they didn't have Cipro in Tchaikovsky's time,


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> Theories abound, and no one has definitively proven anything about his death. One theory was that he was diddling a teenage boy who was the son of a prominent family. Rather than face the shame of a public trial, he committed suicide. Tchaikovsky was clearly homosexual - his brother Modest, too. They wrote about it to each each other in code.HERE is a pretty good Wikipedia article on the matter. I've read most of the biographies and they have differing opinions on the matter. I think the simplest answer is still the best: he unwisely drank some unboiled water and that was that. As someone who has spent plenty of time in Mexico and China, trust me, unboiled, or unpurified, water is not something to be careless about! Too bad they didn't have Cipro in Tchaikovsky's time,


So he dies of cholera? And it's a pity he dies like this, just imagine what else he could compose if he has 20 more years to live...I feel the same about Mozart.
And did Tchaikovsky actually have sexual contact with other men?


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Stop the speculation please , we've been there done that. Topic is closed
https://www.talkclassical.com/60449-tchaikovsky-homosexual.html?highlight=


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Rogerx said:


> Stop the speculation please , we've been there done that. Topic is closed
> https://www.talkclassical.com/60449-tchaikovsky-homosexual.html?highlight=


Going back to the original subject, is Prokofiev comparable to Rimsky-Korsakov?


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Going back to the original subject, is Prokofiev comparable to Rimsky-Korsakov?


Well, they were both composers. But very, very different ones. I'd say your answer has to be, "No."


----------



## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Going back to the original subject, is Prokofiev comparable to Rimsky-Korsakov?


Scanning your questions you may find reading a basic reader in classical music in general of use. Try Grout. I'm sure this would supply you with the answers to many of your questions.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Going back to the original subject, is Prokofiev comparable to Rimsky-Korsakov?


Prokofiev complained about R-K's orchestration class and teaching style when he was a young brat at the St. Petersburg Conservatory. But some of the teaching sank in. Otherwise not much similarity.

About your other question: Tchaikovsky was homosexual, having affairs with men throughout his life. It is thoroughly documented in the composer's own words in his letters and diaries. His sexual preference was an open secret in his social set. He died of cholera.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Did Rimsky-Korsakov even compose ballet(s)?


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

No, unless you count some of the dances in the operas. Some ballet companies have used his music for ballet to varying degrees of success. I saw a danced version of Scheherazade (heavily cut) and it was less than memorable.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> No, unless you count some of the dances in the operas. Some ballet companies have used his music for ballet to varying degrees of success. I saw a danced version of Scheherazade (heavily cut) and it was less than memorable.


Name some Russian composers aside of Tchaikovsky and Prokofiev that composed Russian ballet(s) please!


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Alexander *Glazunov* wrote several. The Seasons is justifiable the best known, Raymonda excellent.
Reinhold *Gliere* wrote some. The Red Poppy is terrific fun.
Anton *Arensky's *Egyptian Nights is quite enjoyable and a real rarity. The Marco Polo recording is about as good as we'll ever get.
Anton *Rubinstein *wrote some ballet music for the opera, The Demon. Nothing major.

Then come two hacks, the kind of composers who gave ballet music a bad name: *Minkus *and *Drigo*. There's no denying their importance in establishing ballet in Russia, but they are both seriously overshadowed by Tchaikovsky and the rest. If you must, Don Quixote by Minkus is probably his best.

After the Russian nationalists, of course *Stravinsky* wrote many ballets. He left Russia - does he count? *Prokofieff *wrote several in the best Russian tradition and there's more than Romeo & Juliet and Cinderella. The Stone Flower is quite nice. *Shostakovich* wrote many ballets (The Bolt is my favorite) but now we're clearly in Soviet territory. *Khachaturian *wrote several at the behest of his overlords well worth knowing: Gayane and Spartacus are the most famous.

I'd start with Glazunov. Most of his ballets are available on Naxos I think. Some of the shorter ones I got from European sources that are probably hard to get nowadays. But there's always eBay!


----------

