# New piano sonata, feedback much appreciated



## StevenOBrien

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https://soundcloud.com/stevenup7002%2Fsets

Sheet music here: 
http://steven-obrien.net/Portfolio/Piano Sonata in F major.pdf

It's a piano sonata in F major written using classical forms. The first movement is a fast paced sonata-allegro form. The second movement is a slow, relaxing adagio in ternary form. The third movement is a lively, dance-like movement in triple meter sonata-rondo form.

Thoughts?
-Steve


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## Klavierspieler

Very well done, my main thoughts are that occasionally you use some funky voice-leading; avoid the parallel fifths and octaves if you compose in a classical style (of course, octaves can be used to augment the theme, but if this is done too suddenly or for too short a time, it sounds like a mistake. one example of what I'm talking about is at 0:45). Also, it seems to me that you repeat themes with almost no variation far too often. Other than these two things, very well done. I hope to hear more from you in the future.

Oh, and welcome to Talk Classical.


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## Ukko

Composing using Classical Period forms should be a _discipline trainer_, and I applaud your effort. Soundcloud is beyond my realm, and I don't yet read music notation, so this no doubt worthless comment is all I can supply.

Anyway, I wish you success - and a welcome to TC.


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## StevenOBrien

Klavierspieler said:


> Very well done, my main thoughts are that occasionally you use some funky voice-leading; avoid the parallel fifths and octaves if you compose in a classical style (of course, octaves can be used to augment the theme, but if this is done too suddenly or for too short a time, it sounds like a mistake. one example of what I'm talking about is at 0:45). Also, it seems to me that you repeat themes with almost no variation far too often. Other than these two things, very well done. I hope to hear more from you in the future.
> 
> Oh, and welcome to Talk Classical.


Thank you for your feedback! I will study development more and try to use less literal repeats in the future, but where did you find parallel fifths? I definitely try to avoid using them.



Hilltroll72 said:


> Composing using Classical Period forms should be a _discipline trainer_, and I applaud your effort. Soundcloud is beyond my realm, and I don't yet read music notation, so this no doubt worthless comment is all I can supply.
> 
> Anyway, I wish you success - and a welcome to TC.


Well thank you for the warm welcome anyway . I personally believe that more composers should try to apply some sort of form and restraint to their compositions, right down to how the phrases are written and put together. I think it's the way forward, rather than looking backward as some people might suggest. Of course, they needn't be classical forms, but it's a good starting point if you ask me. I can't stand compositions that drag on with no sense of planning or direction. You could argue that I have a short attention span, but is it not the composers responsibility to draw the listener in?


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## Ukko

StevenOBrien said:


> Well thank you for the warm welcome anyway . I personally believe that more composers should try to apply some sort of form and restraint to their compositions, right down to how the phrases are written and put together. I think it's the way forward, rather than looking backward as some people might suggest. Of course, they needn't be classical forms, but it's a good starting point if you ask me. I can't stand compositions that drag on with no sense of planning or direction. You could argue that I have a short attention span, but is it not the composers responsibility to draw the listener in?


I'm not sure that discipline = restraint. The composer has license to put down pretty much whatever is approximately playable, but he has a responsibility to 'make sense'. Things need to hang together, at least enough so that the musician(s) can make the music work in their own innards (ref Elliot Carter). The composer is not 'making' music, he is 'designing' music for musicians to make.

Even after seventy odd (yes, some of them were pretty odd) years, I have no firm concept of the listener's roll in music. I'm convinced that it's there as the 'consumer', but how the feedback works and it's importance, I dunno.


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## Kopachris

The piece is quite nice. I did, however, notice that the codetta on the repeat of the exposition ended with a cadence which sounded a little too final. The codetta should lead right into the development, and shouldn't come to a complete stop. I think you did something similar just before the retransition (?) near the end of the development. Other than that, I enjoyed it very much. My only other complaint would be that the middle section of the Adagio didn't quite contrast enough for my taste, making it seem to drag on a bit. But that's just me.  I quite liked the sonata-rondo.

You'll find that most people on this forum think very highly of innovation in music and think rather negatively of passing off music written with old forms and styles as "art." I personally don't care how old the form or style is as long as 1) I enjoy the music, and 2) the music expresses what the composer intends it to express.


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## Klavierspieler

Kopachris said:


> You'll find that most people on this forum think very highly of innovation in music and think rather negatively of passing off music written with old forms and styles as "art." I personally don't care how old the form or style is as long as 1) I enjoy the music, and 2) the music expresses what the composer intends it to express.


Exactly! Pastiches can be wonderful if they're done right and this one was done very well. Bravo!


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## StevenOBrien

Kopachris said:


> The piece is quite nice. I did, however, notice that the codetta on the repeat of the exposition ended with a cadence which sounded a little too final. The codetta should lead right into the development, and shouldn't come to a complete stop. I think you did something similar just before the retransition (?) near the end of the development. Other than that, I enjoyed it very much. My only other complaint would be that the middle section of the Adagio didn't quite contrast enough for my taste, making it seem to drag on a bit. But that's just me.  I quite liked the sonata-rondo.
> 
> You'll find that most people on this forum think very highly of innovation in music and think rather negatively of passing off music written with old forms and styles as "art." I personally don't care how old the form or style is as long as 1) I enjoy the music, and 2) the music expresses what the composer intends it to express.


Thanks, glad you enjoyed it. I suppose you could say that writing in an old format is almost an innovation in itself. I really want my music to have a certain sense of balance, symmetry and form that you only really truly find (in my opinion at least) at the pinnacle of the classical era and in the early romantic era. My goal isn't necessarily to imitate the music of Mozart and Haydn, but to incorporate it's spirit into my own voice. I know a lot of you will disagree, but I think it's the way forward, not just a mere imitation of the past.


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## Klavierspieler

StevenOBrien said:


> Thanks, glad you enjoyed it. I suppose you could say that writing in an old format is almost an innovation in itself. I really want my music to have a certain sense of balance, symmetry and form that you only really truly find (in my opinion at least) at the pinnacle of the classical era and in the early romantic era. My goal isn't necessarily to imitate the music of Mozart and Haydn, but to incorporate it's spirit into my own voice. I know a lot of you will disagree, but I think it's the way forward, not just a mere imitation of the past.


I entirely agree with you and my compositions reflect that. (though very few others around here will)


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## StevenOBrien

Klavierspieler said:


> I entirely agree with you and my compositions reflect that. (though very few others around here will)


If there's one thing I've learned today, it's that there are far more "neo-neo-classical" composers out there than I thought.


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## kv466

Nice left hand stuff written although much needed on the execution...really nice adagio...it was a whole new piece for me once that began and all the way throughout it into the third...very nice overall


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## chee_zee

Glad to see someone else who doesn't think avante garde, serialism, and harmony based on 4ths or 7ths or some other contrived interval having no basis in nature are the way forward. Classical and baroque forms are the best forms I've seen yet (and I've studied gagaku, yayhue, aak, nhu nac, carnatic, hindustani, sub-saharan african, northern african, middle eastern, celtic, swing, bebop, modal jazz, jazz fusion, and latin music in addition to each era of Western classical). pallavi/anupallavi/muktayi or aaba is the only thing that comes close imo.

as has been said.....that codetta transitioning from the expo to the devo needs to actually TRANSITION, not be a stopping point. a half cadence or deceptive cadence of some sort, or modulating cadence perhaps...have you read william caplin's 'classical form'?


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## StevenOBrien

chee_zee said:


> as has been said.....that codetta transitioning from the expo to the devo needs to actually TRANSITION, not be a stopping point.


Is it discouraged to make the gap between the development and exposition seem obvious? A lot of classical era music seems to do this.



chee_zee said:


> have you read william caplin's 'classical form'?


This is actually the first thing I composed after reading it, I think it's a must read for any composer, regardless of whether or not you want to compose in a classical style.


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## chee_zee

I agree!

about your codetta cadence...I dunno if you're SUPPOSED to make the transition seamless, but IMO it's in good taste to do so. I'm also a baroque dude, so I'm used to Bach fugues where he can make the fugue seem so seamless (down by the seashore :/) rather than stitched together. It's a virtue one should seek to master, though you by no means always have to make your sections seamless. obviously, elided cadences can help with this, or a modulating elided cadence etc.

Would you rather have the ability to make the codetta transition smoothly but choose not to.....or would you rather not be able to make smooth transitions and always make your sections 'sectioned off' or 'tacked on' or 'seamed together'?


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## StevenOBrien

chee_zee said:


> I agree!
> 
> about your codetta cadence...I dunno if you're SUPPOSED to make the transition seamless, but IMO it's in good taste to do so. I'm also a baroque dude, so I'm used to Bach fugues where he can make the fugue seem so seamless (down by the seashore :/) rather than stitched together. It's a virtue one should seek to master, though you by no means always have to make your sections seamless. obviously, elided cadences can help with this, or a modulating elided cadence etc.
> 
> Would you rather have the ability to make the codetta transition smoothly but choose not to.....or would you rather not be able to make smooth transitions and always make your sections 'sectioned off' or 'tacked on' or 'seamed together'?


That's a good point. I'll be sure to try and do a more seamless transition in my next work to practice. Thanks .


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## chee_zee

btw you have a pretty nice website, how much does it cost to run something like that?


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## StevenOBrien

chee_zee said:


> btw you have a pretty nice website, how much does it cost to run something like that?


Well I designed the site in photoshop and coded the site myself. The hosting is kindly provided by my friend who pays about $50 a year to host a large number of sites.


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