# Verdi or Puccini?



## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Who should I tackle first? 

also recommended performances would also be awesome


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Both, Verdi: Don Carlo and Puccini:Turnadot


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Both, Verdi: Don Carlo and Puccini:Turnadot


I'll add to my list. Any particular CDs though? I have access to a large library with a lot of recordings, it may be there :cheers:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ST4 said:


> I'll add to my list. Any particular CDs though? I have access to a large library with a lot of recordings, it may be there :cheers:


Just pick one, see if the music suits you


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

For Puccini, Turandot may not be the best starting point imo. I'd go for La Boheme or Madama Butterfly. Then move on to Tosca and Turandot.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> For Puccini, Turandot may not be the best starting point imo. I'd go for La Boheme or Madama Butterfly. Then move on to Tosca and Turandot.


La Boheme it is then!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ST4 said:


> La Boheme it is then!


Karajan / Freni / Pavarotti on Decca.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Here's a link with we made in 2015.

http://www.talkclassical.com/38696-winners-thread-2015-talk.html
Take your pick if you find the time.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I started my operatic listening career with Rigoletto. Good place to start I think. The old Solti performance with Moffo and Kraus and Merrill. Solti drives it too hard but the singing is excellent.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Verdi - try _Aida_ (Eeeeeeegypt!) or _Otello_ -

but _Turandot_ is, to second Pugg, fantastic. Mythical China and a princess with a spider complex - what's not to love? Listen to the Leinsdorf recording with Bjorling and Nilsson, and watch the 1988 Met broadcast with Domingo, Eva Marton and Zeffirelli's sets.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pugg said:


> Both, Verdi: Don Carlo and Puccini:Turnadot


I love both but wouldn't begin with them. I mean Falstaff is my favourite Verdi opera but I wouldn't necessarily have begun with it

Same with Turandot. Better start with Boheme


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## sacraselva (Aug 31, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> *I'd go for La Boheme or Madama Butterfly*. Then move on to Tosca and Turandot.


This is exactly the advice I got from a friend when I was completely new to opera. For me, none of these two did it. 
Tosca on the other hand had me hooked from first note (for the original post: I would definitely recommend the super classic 1953 Tosca recording with Callas, Gobbi, Di Stefano).


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

That's the general problem with asking for advice, we are all wired differently. What works for one may not work for the other.


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## sacraselva (Aug 31, 2016)

The middle Verdi period has the most accessible Music, in my opinion, so I would recommend any of Rigoletto, Il trovatore (silly plot alert though, but lovely music) and La traviata for a starting point.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> That's the general problem with asking for advice, we are all wired differently. What works for one may not work for the other.


High time for a next 100 favourite opera's next year.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Verdi by far...


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> That's the general problem with asking for advice, we are all wired differently. What works for one may not work for the other.


Yes, well I am a listener with a lot of experience behind him (it's not like "what is a soprano?", "what is an aria?", "what is dissonance?" and so on), I can dive into something really deep and "hard" if you wish.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Btw, I had a full listen of Don Carlo yesterday, which I am currently reflecting on tonight :tiphat:


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Both but I think Verdi have a better average than Puccini.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I found that my teenage grandchildren were most receptive to _La Boheme_, _Tosca_, _Turandot _and _Madama Butterfly_ so I would have to say to start with Puccini and then immediately segue into the magnificent genius Verdi (with a sideline trip to _Carmen_ in between).
Their all time favorite was the wonderful murder mystery of Tosca. They really flipped over that one the most.

Now that you have chosen Boheme first (a very good choice by the way) do consider the Bjoerling/Sayao CD version -- it is wonderful.


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## Pallinavox (Jul 12, 2017)

Both...but I'm italian so I choose Verdi, more "verace" í ½í¸


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

nina foresti said:


> I would have to say to start with Puccini


traditor! Verdi was before, so he must be first listened to!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> traditor! Verdi was before, so he must be first listened to!


No "traditor" about it. I too am a Verdi devotee but frankly if one is trying to attract the attention of an opera newbie, Verdi is not the practical way to go about it first. Baby steps.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Pugg said:


> High time for a next 100 favourite opera's next year.


Yes! Can't wait to participate now that I'm a much more experienced opera listen


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

nina foresti said:


> if one is trying to attract the attention of an opera newbie, Verdi is not the practical way to go about it first. Baby steps.


not sure i got it correctly, but i thought 'baby steps' to be exactly what a newbie would need? Verdi _La Traviata_ for example - what's not to like about it?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> not sure i got it correctly, but i thought 'baby steps' to be exactly what a newbie would need? Verdi _La Traviata_ for example - what's not to like about it?


Nothing at all. It is an excellent choice -- except for the fact that 4 of Puccini's equal the 1 of Verdi's.
Face it -- Verdi is much more sophisticated a composer-- at least IMO.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

ST4 said:


> Btw, I had a full listen of Don Carlo yesterday, which I am currently reflecting on tonight :tiphat:


Excellent choice! Don Carlo is one of my favorite operas (and Pugg's too!)


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

This is not exactly the place, but for Puccini get the performances with Pavarotti (La Bohème Karajan, Turandot Mehta), with Tosca (L. Price) and Madama Butterfly with Karajan (whether it is the Decca with Freni or the Warner with Callas).
Verdi is more complex for me. Solti has better mature operas (Otello, Aida & Don Carlo) while Muti shines in the Early operas (Ernani, Attila, Macbeth, and also La Forza del Destino and Maschera). Pick Gardelli's Nabucco, Karajan/Callas Il Trovatore, and Sinopoli's Rigoletto. La Traviata is very tough. I haven't found any perfect. The famous Kleiber/Domingo/Cotrubas has lots of cuts, and the first Sutherland with Pritchard is a very good spin with terrible diction and great team work.

And no, Callas is not my Violetta.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Sonata said:


> Excellent choice! Don Carlo is one of my favorite operas (and Pugg's too!)


And mine too. It is my favorite opera.


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## Jemarchesurtousleschemins (Apr 3, 2017)

Pugg said:


> High time for a next 100 favourite opera's next year.


I concur. Maybe later this year???? (I'm not good at handling lists or votes or rankings or stuff like that though, so I couldn't do it.)
Edit: Sorry, that was off topic. On topic: it honestly doesn't matter. Either is good.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Pallinavox said:


> Both...but I'm italian so I choose Verdi, more "verace" ������


Nice to see a new poster stepping in right away, welcome to Talk Classical.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sonata said:


> Excellent choice! Don Carlo is one of my favorite operas (and Pugg's too!)


Along with La Traviata.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Granate said:


> This is not exactly the place, but for Puccini get the performances with Pavarotti (La Bohème Karajan, Turandot Mehta), with Tosca (L. Price) and Madama Butterfly with Karajan (whether it is the Decca with Freni or the Warner with Callas).
> Verdi is more complex for me. Solti has better mature operas (Otello, Aida & Don Carlo) while Muti shines in the Early operas (Ernani, Attila, Macbeth, and also La Forza del Destino and Maschera). Pick Gardelli's Nabucco, Karajan/Callas Il Trovatore, and Sinopoli's Rigoletto. La Traviata is very tough. I haven't found any perfect. The famous Kleiber/Domingo/Cotrubas has lots of cuts, and the first Sutherland with Pritchard is a very good spin with terrible diction and great team work.
> 
> And no, Callas is not my Violetta.


You see Granate, people like to do a new 100 best opera's, you Simon, and some other members combined will do this next year.


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## RobertKC (Dec 9, 2013)

I'll offer a different perspective. If you listen to a CD vs. see a video, you are missing half of what opera offers. As others have said, people have different tastes. With that said, for a beginner, I suggest film adaptations of opera:





































Also, IMO this video of a live performance is excellent for beginners.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

RobertKC said:


> I'll offer a different perspective. If you listen to a CD vs. see a video, you are missing half of what opera offers. As others have said, people have different tastes. With that said, for a beginner, I suggest film adaptations of opera:


Not everyone want to watch on small screen, I do, don't get me wrong, but sometimes the CD suit better like listing whilst working.


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## RobertKC (Dec 9, 2013)

Another advantage of Blu-ray or DVD videos is that there are subtitles on the screen - usually available in multiple languages, but certainly in English. Otherwise, unless the opera newbie understands the language being sung (Italian in this case), they must try to follow along in a printed libretto, reading the translation for each line being sung. And the printed librettos that come with CDs generally have small print - in my case requiring strong reading glasses and bright light.

With a video recording (vs. audio only), part of the storytelling is accomplished via acting, and the translated words are on the TV screen. 

Bottom line - IME - its much easier for a newbie to understand an opera's story via a video recording vs. audio recording.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Pugg said:


> You see Granate, people like to do a new 100 best opera's, you Simon, and some other members combined will do this next year.


Yeah, I wanted to ask you, how and when are we doing the top 100? I'm clueless. Nabucco is too low in the top I think.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Granate said:


> Yeah, I wanted to ask you, how and when are we doing the top 100? I'm clueless. Nabucco is too low in the top I think.


No Granate, if people vote them in the list then it belongs there, otherwise all masterpieces will fall out, from the Ring / Norma or name another big one.
We have a chat about it when the new year is coming.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Pugg said:


> No Granate, if people vote them in the list then it belongs there, otherwise all masterpieces will fall out, from the Ring / Norma or name another big one.
> We have a chat about it when the new year is coming.


Thanks for reminding me; it had slipped my mind!


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Thank you all once again for the input, I am going to be obtaining some copies of the Verdi this week and La Rondine while I'm at it :cheers:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> Thanks for reminding me; it had slipped my mind!


I due time I will contact you, don't worry.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

ST4: Do yourself a favor and lighten your pocketbook just enough to get _Carmen_ in DVD with Garanca and Alagna. You will thank me, I promise you.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

nina foresti said:


> _Carmen_ in DVD with Garanca and Alagna.


hmm, not sure the production does it favor that opera.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> hmm, not sure the production does it favor that opera.


With DVD and live operas, I feel this sentiment all too well (particularly with more darker or very seriously themed operas). I can't take cheese unless it's ironic cheese (aka legitimately funny comedic operas get away with this for good reason)


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## angelo (Jun 20, 2017)

Verdi is the best choice.
Start with operas with not only nice melodic pieces, but also compact, without not-easy-listening long intervals (for this reason I would avoid Don Carlos, which is overestimated imho)

I suggest:
Traviata (for example with Domingo-Cotrubas-Milnes-Kleiber), or Rigoletto (with Kraus-Bastianini-Scotto-Gavazzeni) or Trovatore (with Domingo-Plowright-Fassbaender-Giulini).
But you may start also with previous works such as Macbeth (Milnes-Cossotto-Carreras-Muti) or Nabucco (Manuguerra-Scotto-Luchetti-Muti ...but Scotto has difficoulties)


Puccini operas have very nice pieces, but also lots of not-easy-listening periods (theatre music). If you like Verism style, start with Mascagni's Cavalleria Rusticana (Pavarotti-Varady-Cappuccilli-Gavazzeni)


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

angelo said:


> Verdi is the best choice.
> Start with operas with not only nice melodic pieces, but also compact, without not-easy-listening long intervals (for this reason I would avoid Don Carlos, which is overestimated imho)
> 
> I suggest:
> ...


It's a sensation to see/ hear, why always going just for the marry go round music what pleases the ear?


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

Both Verdi and Puccini are wonderful composers with I suggest not a bad work between them..... In comparing them? Put it this way. If I was to make love to a woman with a passion for Verdi, I'd hang around after for a coffee and a chat about his work. If the woman had a passion for Puccini, I'd hang around to make love again.


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## Bertali (Jul 14, 2017)

I prefer Puccini every day of the week.
You have to look hard to get something like this out of a Verdi opera.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

^  here you have it.






Anja Harteros and Jonas Kaufmann singing the final duet from DON


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## Bertali (Jul 14, 2017)

Pugg said:


> ^  here you have it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't say that Verdi is bad but he doesn't reach the heights of Puccini, at least not for me.


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## Sofiko (Jul 17, 2017)

Bertali said:


> I don't say that Verdi is bad but he doesn't reach the heights of Puccini, at least not for me.


Who should I tackle first? - Puccini
Hello!
I am Sofiko, nice to meet you all! I currently live in Republic Georgia. I'm an opera singer. Soprano. For the project year 2018 seeking score romances Giacomo Puccini for voice with piano:
1.	Spirito gentili
2.	Malanconia
3.	Allor chi'o sary morto:
4.	Noi legger
5.	Storiella d'amore
6.	Sole e amore
7.	Solfeggi
8.	E l'uccollino
9.	Terra e mare
10.	Canto d'anima
11.	Ditele
12.	Morire
13.	Avanti, Urania!
On free sites is not found. Can someone have? Perfect and electronic version. Referably in Italian.
The concert will be Dedicated to the anniversary of the composer Giacomo Puccini and will be held in the city of Kutaisi Republic Georgia in May of the 2018.
Thankful in advance


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## Sofiko (Jul 17, 2017)

That is why I vote for Puccini in this dispute.:tiphat:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sofiko said:


> Who should I tackle first? - Puccini
> Hello!
> I am Sofiko, nice to meet you all! I currently live in Republic Georgia. I'm an opera singer. Soprano. For the project year 2018 seeking score romances Giacomo Puccini for voice with piano:
> 1.	Spirito gentili
> ...


Great post, welcome to Talk Classical by the way.


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## Sofiko (Jul 17, 2017)

Pugg said:


> Great post, welcome to Talk Classical by the way.


Thank you! Now I prepare another concert to be in Kutaisi 26 September this year. In this concert in my program and Verdi and Puccini.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sofiko said:


> Thank you! Now I prepare another concert to be in Kutaisi 26 September this year. In this concert in my program and Verdi and Puccini.


Do you have an opera house in your neighbourhood or is it just a aria's concert?


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## Sofiko (Jul 17, 2017)

Pugg said:


> Do you have an opera house in your neighbourhood or is it just a aria's concert?


We have Opera in our city. But it will be a aria's concert


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

ST4 said:


> Who should I tackle first?
> 
> also recommended performances would also be awesome


I would go with Puccini first-a bit more accessible:

Tosca: Callas, Gobbi.

La Boheme: Freni, Pavarotti.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sofiko said:


> We have Opera in our city. But it will be a aria's concert


Any special artists If I may ask?


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## Sofiko (Jul 17, 2017)

Pugg said:


> Any special artists If I may ask?


Yes of course it is possible to ask. There will be three soloists. Baritone, Tenor and Soprano. Leaders. Piano. All actors opera singers. I will lay out the program of a concert if the moderator resolves.


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## Sofiko (Jul 17, 2017)

Here program of a concert. I think that it in on a subject. As it is possible to consider as council.

Gioachino Rossini (1792-1868)
1. Gioachino Rossini (1792-1868) – Cavantina of Figaro “Largo of factotum” Opera “Il Barbiere di Siviglia”
2. Gioachino Rossini (1792-1868) – Cavantina of Rozina “Una voce poco fa” Opera “Il Barbiere di Siviglia”
3. Gioachino Rossini (1792-1868) – Duetto of Almaviva and Figaro “” Opera “Il Barbiere di Siviglia”

Gaetano Doniceti (1797-1848)
4. Gaetano Doniceti (1797-1848) – Romanse of Nemorino “Una furtive lagrima” Opera “L’elisir d’amore”
5.Gaetano Doniceti – Duetto of Adina and Nemorino “Una parola” Opera “L’elisir d’amore”

Giusepe Verdi (1813-1901)
6. Guisepe Verdi (1813-1901) - Aria of Jermon “Di provenza il mare” Opera “ La Traviatta”
7.Giusepe Verdi (1813-1901) - Aria of Herzog “La Donna e mobile” Opera “Rigoletto”
8 .Giusepe Verdi (1813-1901) – Aria of Rigoletto “Cortigiani vil razza dannata” Opera “Rigoletto”
9.GuisepeVerdi (1813-1901) – Scena and duetto of Rigoletto and Jilda “Tutte le fesk… Si vendetta” Opera “Rigoletto”
10. Giusepe Verdi (1813-1901) – Aria of Rikardo “Di tu sefedele” Opera “Un ballo in mashera”
11. Guisepe Verdi (1813-1901) - Dueto of Violeta and Alfredo “Parigi o cara”. Opera “Traviata”

Giacomo Puccini (1858-1924)
12. Giacomo Puccini (1858-1924) – Aria of Kollen “Vecehia zimmara” Opera “La Boheme”
13. Giacomo Puccini (1858-1924) – Aria of Mimi “Si mi chiamano Mimi” Opera “La Boheme”
14. GiacomoPuccini (1858-1924) – Aria of Rudolfo “Che gelida manina” Opera “La Boheme”
15. Giacomo Puccini (1858-1924) - Aria of Miuzetta “Quando m’en vo’soletta per la viva” Opera “La Boheme”
TERCETI
16. Gioachino Rossini (1792-1868) – Terceti “Ziti, ziti” Opera “Il Barbiere di Siviglia”


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

I just received the cds of La Rondine and Don Carlo in the mail this afternoon, I'll be giving one of them a spin later tonight :cheers:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ST4 said:


> I just received the cds of La Rondine and Don Carlo in the mail this afternoon, I'll be giving one of them a spin later tonight :cheers:


Which one did you buy?


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Which one did you buy?


These two:



















:tiphat:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ST4 said:


> These two:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought you had this one already.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Pugg said:


> I thought you had this one already.


The don carlo? no I listened to it on Spotify two weeks ago and then brought it instantly.

Have you heard it? if so, do you think it stacks up against other performances? :tiphat:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ST4 said:


> The don carlo? no I listened to it on Spotify two weeks ago and then brought it instantly.
> 
> Have you heard it? if so, do you think it stacks up against other performances? :tiphat:


That is my confusion, not my al time favourite,though, that would be the DVD with Freni and Domingo or the Karajan recording also with Freni, but then Carreras as the Don Carlo ( CD)


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

ST4 said:


> These two:
> 
> <snip>


Somewhat peculiar first entries into Puccini and Verdi. Don Carlo is a great opera with some of Verdi's greatest music, but the ostensible leads are dramatically not very compelling and most of the best music is reserved for the lower voiced costars. The central romance is weak and the ending is ludicrous. I'd start with Otello or Rigoletto myself--those are my favorites. Other good starting points would be Aida, Traviata or Trovatore. Falstaff is also excellent but more for watching than listening, I think.

I'm not a huge fan of that Solti Don Carlo, finding both Solti and Fischer-Dieskau stylistically incompatible with how I prefer my Don Carlo. The most recommended recording is usually the Giulini with Domingo and Caballe, but I'm not a fan of the performance, finding it a little droopy and monochromatic. I prefer a pair of live Abbado recordings from the 70s, one with Domingo and Margaret Price and the other with Carreras and Freni, or the Santini on DG with Labo and Stella (although the leads are honestly the weakest part of that latter recording).

La Rondine is one of Puccini's less popular operas, justifiably so. I'd recommend almost any of his operas over that one--Boheme, Butterfly, Fanciulla, Tosca or Turandot in particular. My particular favorite is Turandot, but all the others have their charms. Tosca, Butterfly and Boheme are probably the most popular, Fanciulla and Turandot probably the most interesting musically.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

ST4 said:


> The don carlo? no I listened to it on Spotify two weeks ago and then brought it instantly.
> 
> Have you heard it? if so, do you think it stacks up against other performances? :tiphat:


ST4. This Solti is my favourite Don Carlo. I would love to buy it in the Originals Edition, and well, at the time I wanted to buy it was too expensive. Now it's 17€ all together from the UK (almost same price as Knappertsbusch 1962 Parsifal). Tempting.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

In my opinion, Verdi's RIGOLETTO and Puccini's TOSCA would be ideal "first operas."

I don't know LA RONDINE at all, but DON CARLO is a favorite of mine. Maybe listen to LA RONDINE first, as it's probably much shorter(?)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pugg said:


> That is my confusion, not my al time favourite,though, that would be the DVD with Freni and Domingo or the Karajan recording also with Freni, but then Carreras as the Don Carlo ( CD)


The Karajan is a tremendous performance of high voltage with a stella cast but it is only the four act version. For five act choose Guilini in Italian. French Pappano


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The Karajan is a tremendous performance of high voltage with a stella cast but it is only the four act version. For five act choose Guilini in Italian. French Pappano


I know but he's just starting Verdi so I think this details coming later.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just listenng to Dn Carlo. It really is tremendous but not sure whether I would have thought so if I had just begun listening to opera. But the way Verdi deals with emotions is outstanding - he is second only to Mozart in this. The last scene between Carlos and Elizabeth is incredible.


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