# Composition-Nat'l Ranking



## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I've long threatened to start a thread like this. Today, I'll make good on the threat.

Here follows my "highly unofficial" *FICA* (composers) ranking by nation. The criteria are very subjective... my appreciation of the Classical Music output of the countries listed. O.K.- here goes:

*1. Germany*: key "players"- Beethoven, Wagner, Bach, R. Strauss, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Schumann.
*2. Austria*: key "players"- Mahler, Bruckner, Schubert, Mozart, Haydn.
*3. Russia*: key "players"- Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Rachmaninoff
*4. France*: key "players"- Ravel, Debussy, Berlioz, Bizet, Saint-Säens.
*5. Italy*: key "players"- Puccini, Verdi, Rossini.
*6. Czech Republic*: key "players"- Dvořák, Smetana, Janácek.
*7. United States*: key "players"- Gershwin, Barber, Copland.
*8. United Kingdom*: key "players"- Elgar, Purcell, Holst.
*9. Hungary*: key "players"- Liszt, Bartók.
*10: Finland*: key "player"- Sibelius.

Would anyone else like to try their own ranking, or comment on the list I've given??


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

For the U.K., I'd take VW and Handel, who was traded sometime back, instead of Holst and Purcell. Some might add Britten, too. 

And I suppose Vivaldi is out due to injury, or something.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

1) Excellent case could be made that Handel is the finest composer not mentioned in my post. The issue of which flag he marches under is one I'll leave to others... 
2) I didn't mean to leave anyone with the impression that VW wasn't a player, it's just that (in my collection), he's not a _key_ player.
3) Ditto Vivaldi (and Palestrina, Monteverdi, Bellini, Donizetti, Ponchielli, Mascagni, Respighi, etc. etc.)


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> 2) I didn't mean to leave anyone with the impression that VW wasn't a player, it's just that (in my collection), he's not a _key_ player.


As I said, I would take[ meaning consider as 'key players' - sorry about that] VW and Handel. And I would add Vivaldi to Italy as a key player. The rest of your list coincides with what I would have come up with.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

I would add Charles Ives to the U.S. list, as he was really the first truly renown American composer. But, again, I love the guy, so I might be biased


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## R-F (Feb 12, 2008)

Handel was born in Germany, but spent a lot of time in Britain. I would put him under German.
There's also a lot of debate whether Liszt is Hungarian, am I right?


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

opus67 said:


> As I said, I would take[ meaning consider as 'key players' - sorry about that] VW and Handel. And I would add Vivaldi to Italy as a key player. The rest of your list coincides with what I would have come up with.


I agree with VW and Handel, but I think Chi was right to leave Vivaldi off the list. Bach was a true innovator and master of instrumental music, while Handel was the same for operas and oratorios. While Vivaldi was competent at both instrumental and vocal work, I don't imagine that the course of art music would've been significantly different without him.


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

BuddhaBandit said:


> While Vivaldi was competent at both instrumental and vocal work, I don't imagine that the course of art music would've been significantly different without him.


What about the concerto?


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2008)

Your key players are all dead.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

some guy said:


> Your key players are all dead.


Ummm... yeah- and so are: LF: Ted Williams, CF: Ty Cobb, RF: Babe Ruth, C: Josh Gibson, 1B: Lou Gehrig, RHP: Walter Johnson, LHP: Lefty Grove... but I think I'll keep _those_ guys on my all-time fantasy baseball team, too.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

opus67 said:


> What about the concerto?


 But the concerto, I believe, arose from Corelli and Tartini and was adopted by Vivaldi and Bach; thus, I'm not sure that one can say Vivaldi was the definitive "father of the concerto".


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2008)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> Ummm... yeah- and so are: LF: Ted Williams, CF: Ty Cobb, RF: Babe Ruth, C: Josh Gibson, 1B: Lou Gehrig, RHP: Walter Johnson, LHP: Lefty Grove... but I think I'll keep _those_ guys on my all-time fantasy baseball team, too.


But you wouldn't have any living players on your fantasy baseball team?????

(I'm just sayin'.)


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

[q]For the U.K., I'd take VW and Handel, who was traded sometime back[/q]Handel was trained (pretty much) in Italy, gets a lot of his qualities from Italy and composes in an Italian style. He's more Italian than German or English.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

A dozen replies... and no "counter-lists?"
(Lapses into Midwestern accent) I must a' done _good_!


some guy said:


> But you wouldn't have any living players on your fantasy baseball team?


Actually, I probably would... 3b- Mike Schmidt, ss- A-rod (although you could STILL make a _great_ statistical case for Honus Wagner [no relation]) and 2b- Joe Morgan... but we digress. 

When I made the protean version of this list, I initially struggled over the placings of France & Italy. The more I think about it, the less I'm conflicted about my final decision.

The Austria/Russia pairing, I think, is more problematic. I haven't changed my mind- but I certainly would understand if anyone wanted to reverse _that_ order.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

I think the Austria/Russia decision is fine, mostly because the combined _influence_ of the Austrian players is greater than that of the Russian players. I mean, it's fairly difficult to beat the impact of the Haydn-Mozart-Schubert-Mahler foursome (unless, of course, you're Germany  )


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## shsherm (Jan 24, 2008)

The European Composers dominated the 19th Century but if you carefully examine the 
20th Century, a case can be made for American composers. Starting with Charles Ives to today, American composers have had a great influence even if this music is not played in Europe as much but when I went to a concert in Amsterdam "Rhapsody In Blue" was performed. I will not enumerate the dozens of American composers who wrote during the 20th Century and are notable and will not include the many composers who immigrated to the US such as Schoenberg, but a lot of the best 20th century music was written by Americans.


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## MatthewSchwartz (Jun 9, 2008)

Japan - Toru Takemitsu


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## AndersWestberg (Jul 7, 2008)

I really think you should add some at least one swedish composer! The scandinavian music is more the Grieg and Sibelius!


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

The English team fielded between the wars was pretty strong.

In goal (due to age) - C.V Stanford;

L. Back - Howlells; Centre Back - John Ireland; Right Back - Frank Bridge;

Left Half - Gustav Holst; Sweeper (cpt.) - RVW; Right Half - Fred. Delius; 

Outside Left Forward (dept. cpt.) - E. Elgar; Centre Forward - Gerald Finzi; Right Centre - William Walton; Outside Left - Arthur Bliss;

A formidable team!


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

AndersWestberg said:


> I really think you should add some at least one Swedish composer! The Scandinavian music is more the Grieg and Sibelius!


I understand what you're saying. Empathize a little, even. Careful readers will recall that I have significant Swedish ancestry. My collection, in addition to the obligatory Hugo Alfvén, also includes some works by Lars-Erik Larsson, Ingvar Lidholm. Lille-Bror Söderlundh, and Dag Wirén.However, in order to have included Sweden in my initial post, I would have had to consider them a "fave-10" Classical Music composition country. My enthusiasm, though considerable, does not quite extend that far...


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> I understand what you're saying. Empathize a little, even. Careful readers will recall that I have significant Swedish ancestry. My collection, in addition to the obligatory Hugo Alfvén, also includes some works by Lars-Erik Larsson, Ingvar Lidholm. Lille-Bror Söderlundh, and Dag Wirén.However, in order to have included Sweden in my initial post, I would have had to consider them a "fave-10" Classical Music composition country. My enthusiasm, though considerable, does not quite extend that far...


AHHH! My eyes!!! 



Are we supposed to decode something here?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

This was a cool idea for a thread. My list would pretty much parallel Chi's -- except Germany would be at the number one slot for Bach and Beethoven alone and all the rest of the countries would be tied for second place, although it could be argued that Beethoven settled in Vienna.

There must have been something in the water in Germany during the 18th and 19th centuries.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

The first five (Germany, Austria, Russia, France, and Italy) are accurate. However, to me, Russian music has as great an influence as German music. France is up there for its little composers, but Italy is tied, because of it's "ini" and "aldi" composers. Czech Republic is 8th. That's because the music of the US and the UK are more significant. Lastly, I would cut out Finland. 

I would put 10th: Spain (Albeniz, Soler, Sarasate, Rodrigo, Granados)
11th: Belgium (de beriot, Gossec, Ysaye, Franck)
12th: Poland (Chopin, Mozkowski)
13th: Norway (Grieg)
and THEN 13th: Finland (Sibelius)


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> My collection, in addition to the obligatory Hugo Alfvén, also includes some works by Lars-Erik Larsson, Ingvar Lidholm. Lille-Bror Söderlundh, and Dag Wirén.[/COLOR]


Is Joseph Martin Kraus Swedish? Franz Berwald is a favorite here.

If you like Swedish music, their folk music seems quite interesting to me. At least, Vasen - Essence should be on everyone's desk.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I think this is a good list. I think Finland certainly deserves to be on it, not just for Sibelius, but for the amount of world-clas composers that come from this country. Finland is a musical powerhouse of a nation, every bit as viable as the Czech Republic or Hungary.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Where are Byrd and Gibbons in the UK? With this team they won't be able to qualify to Euro once more (ok in footie it is England...).


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

sorry but you cant put holst on that list and not have have VW or Bax - VW intriduced the truly english in music - holst did much less than those two - just cos the planets is really famous


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

If we are considering baroque and early classicism (and I think that we should), Italy should be second, just after Germany. Definitively above France.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Aramis said:


> If we are considering baroque and early classicism (and I think that we should), Italy should be second, just after Germany. Definitively above France.


Italy has some pretty good forwards like Monteverdi and Corelli and strong defenders like Fresobaldi. But France has also great players like the famous defender Lully and the great left-winger François Couperin (but he que play in crossed sides as well) and the mythical midfielder Rameau. I can't decide between the two.


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

also in the 16th century Uk was the leading musical country in europe - so that should be represented in someone or two like TALLIS - certainly if purcell is important so is tallis even more


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

JAKE WYB said:


> sorry but you cant put holst on that list and not have have VW or Bax - VW intriduced the truly english in music - holst did much less than those two - just cos the planets is really famous


I wouldn't underestimate Holst. Beyond the Planets (pun not intended), there is much quality work of a very talented composer.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Italy has some pretty good forwards like Monteverdi and Corelli and strong defenders like Fresobaldi. But France has also great players like the famous defender Lully and the great left-winger François Couperin (but he que play in crossed sides as well) and the mythical midfielder Rameau. I can't decide between the two.


At the long run italians easily outnumber frenchs, when it comes to the most famous and influental composers. I think top should go like this:

Germany/Austria (ex aequo)
Russia/Italy 
France


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

PLus theres no way you can call barber a key player with any stretch of the imagination - or gershwin for that matter - or copland - for the united states they are dominant - but on international and historic terms they cant surely square up as key players aside those austrian, german, russian giants


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I wouldn't underestimate Holst. Beyond the Planets (pun not intended), there is much quality work of a very talented composer.


i couldnt agree more - but theres equally and more of greatness in VW and BAX - and a greater style and consistency and output -


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Weston said:


> This was a cool idea for a thread. My list would pretty much parallel Chi's -- except Germany would be at the number one slot for Bach and Beethoven alone and all the rest of the countries would be tied for second place, although it could be argued that Beethoven settled in Vienna.
> 
> There must have been something in the water in Germany during the 18th and 19th centuries.


Germany didn't even exist as a state until Bismarck. States are political entities and so change under political circumstances, and music is formed under influences well beyond national boundaries and a particular time. In some *moments* of course an individual in a place may inspire others, this influence quite naturally will be more immediate locally rather than much further away, but it all spreads eventually. There's no doubt Beethoven was influenced by Austrian composers, just like Bach was influenced (like Handel) by Italian.

The size of the political entity will obviously affect how large the body of musicians are in it. The distribution of that music would probably be dependent on the music industry (publishing, and in our age of course recording) and the power of a particular state. A wide variety of British composers have been recorded in the past, it probably helps that the recording industry has been so strong in Britain.

So While I'll accept it can be a fun topic for people, it might not really be that important or easy to quantify anyway. And I don't think music is really a sport.


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

This is how I would rank the various nations in terms of their production of the greatest (historical) classical composers:

1	Germany (LvB, Bach, Wagner, Brahms, Handel, Schumann)
2	Russia (Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich)
2	France (Debussy, Berlioz, Ravel, Rameau)
4	Italy (Verdi, Vivaldi, Palestrina, Monteverdi)
5	Austria (Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Bruckner)
6	UK (RvW, Purcell, Elgar, Byrd, Britten, Tallis)
7 USA (Ives, Copland, Gershwin, Barber)
8	Hungary (Liszt, Bartok)
9	Czech/Bohemia (Dvorak, Smetana)
10	Poland (Chopin)
11	Finland (Sibelius)
12	Norway (Grieg)

Notes

- Various other composers were included apart from those listed, in fact a total of almost 100.

- I allocated each composer to their country of birth, eg Handel to Germany even though he became a naturalised Brit and produced the greatest of his works in England.

- I haven't simply counted the number of "great composers" but instead tried to rank them broadly by applying my conception of their notoriety and general popularity (not by my personal preferences), and then by applying a set of arbitrarily declining "weights".

My results are not surprising and are broadly similar to those in the opening post. They don't vary much according to the exact rank order of each composer, or how the weights are changed. On any calculation, Germany stands out head and shoulders above all the others. Russia and France are equal second. Italy comes out slightly ahead of Austria in 4th and 5th places respectively. The UK and USA then follow.


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

That list I think is better and fairer


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

If we lump together the Scandinavians under one banner they become stronger (Sibelius, Nielsen, Grieg, Alfven, Buxtehude, Stenhammar, Halvorsen - I think it should be 6-a-side at least) - a bit like the West Indies at cricket.

You missed some important players for Czech/Bohemia - Janacek, Martinu, etc, and loads of Russians (Rimsky, Mussorgsky, etc)


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

jezbo said:


> If we lump together the Scandinavians under one banner they become stronger (Sibelius, Nielsen, Grieg, Alfven, Buxtehude, Stenhammar, Halvorsen - I think it should be 6-a-side at least) - a bit like the West Indies at cricket.
> 
> You missed some important players for Czech/Bohemia - Janacek, Martinu, etc, and loads of Russians (Rimsky, Mussorgsky, etc)


I think it could be fair to to say "Scandinavia" as opposed to just the individual countries. But I believe Finland to be the strongest Nordic country not just for Sibelius (which all by himself would still seal that deal) but for the amount of other impoartant composers to come from there: Saariaho, Rautavaara, Aho, Sallinen, Madetoja, Klami, Kuula, Englund, Salonen, Kajanus (the last two are composers AS WELL AS conductors) etc. I think Finland has the other Nordic countries beat here.


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

jezbo said:


> You missed some important players for Czech/Bohemia - Janacek, Martinu, etc, and loads of Russians (Rimsky, Mussorgsky, etc)


That's incorrect. See the first "note" under the list. It reads "Various other composers were included apart from those listed, in fact a total of almost 100."


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I think it could be fair to to say "Scandinavia" as opposed to just the individual countries. But I believe Finland to be the strongest Nordic country not just for Sibelius (which all by himself would still seal that deal) but for the amount of other impoartant composers to come from there: Saariaho, Rautavaara, Aho, Sallinen, Madetoja, Klami, Kuula, Englund, Salonen, Kajanus (the last two are composers AS WELL AS conductors) etc. I think Finland has the other Nordic countries beat here.


With respect, the various composers you mention (apart from Sibelius) are mainly a bunch of small-fry. Any of them would struggle to get into any objectively based list of the top 100 composers, and some probably wouldn't even make a top 200. However assuming that some of them made it into a top 200, the weighting of composers this far down the rankings would be such as to make little difference to my results. As you Americans say: "do the math".

That apart, an amalgamation of all Scandinavian countries would obviously improve their joint ranking. On the choices I made, the combined rank of all Scandinavian countries would increase to joint number 8 with Hungary.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Ok, but Saariaho tops easily any list of "greatest living composers" or "greatest women composers".


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Toccata said:


> With respect, the various composers you mention (apart from Sibelius) are mainly a bunch of small-fry. Any of them would struggle to get into any objectively based list of the top 100 composers, and some probably wouldn't even make a top 200. However assuming that some of them made it into a top 200, the weighting of composers this far down the rankings would be such as to make little difference to my results. As you Americans say: "do the math".
> 
> That apart, an amalgamation of all Scandinavian countries would obviously improve their joint ranking. On the choices I made, the combined rank of all Scandinavian countries would increase to joint number 8 with Hungary.


Well, a lot of those composers are obscure, but they are certainly known, at least in classical circles. Anyway, I guess my point was Finland has produced a good number of quality composers, at least in numbers that other *Nordic countries* cannot rival. Of course, Germany, Britain, Austria, etc. has produced more top quality composers than Finland, say, but my post really was meant to describe Finland's ranking within the *Nordic countries* specifically.


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Ok, but Saariaho tops easily any list of "greatest living composers" or "greatest women composers".


We are not talking about living composers only. We are talking about all composers. Although Saariaho may be the greatest living composer (I'm not arguing that as I do not know) I doubt that she registers even as a tiny blip in the list of composer greats from a historical perspective.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

It's funny when you get people arguing over countries and how they are supposed to represent countries or politics (I'm used to this before elsewhere). Or it is funny until it is used for ethnic nationalism, such as how the Nazis used Wagner and Beethoven and said they represented Germanicism. Another point is that the best composers tend to be open to outside influences not merely local ones. The most acclaimed Russian composer? Tchaikovsky. 

The power of states and their wealth is very much a product of the particular time in which the music is composed in, a result of historical circumstances and not something of universal value (unlike the music itself). Thus Austria was the centre of the Austro-Hungarian empire and was therefore wealthy state with patronage for composers all over. The twentieth century equivalent has been America.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

starry said:


> Another point is that the best composers tend to be open to outside influences not merely local ones. The most acclaimed Russian composer? Tchaikovsky.


Stravinsky and Musorgsky can lay a fairly good claim to this title. And they are deeply nationalistic.

Even Mozart is nationalistic, not in a naive-19 century way (he has, though, his moments of folkish music, like in the German dances), but his quest of a Germanic opera may have been the single greatest achievement of his carreer, he created a genre out of nothing, truly amazing. Obviously Mozart considered himself a german as every Austrian did up until the second world war.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Toccata said:


> 1	Germany (LvB, Bach, Wagner, Brahms, Handel, Schumann)
> 2	Russia (Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich)
> 2	France (Debussy, Berlioz, Ravel, Rameau)
> 4	Italy (Verdi, Vivaldi, Palestrina, Monteverdi)
> ...


An interesting list, *Toccata*! As you say, it bears similarities to the original list. Allow me to remark on the first 5 entries, though-

As I said before, I have no quibble with anyone who would opt to place *Russia* second. *France*, however, is a fascinating case. I think that France's primacy in the Visual Arts, as well as its probable podium finish in Western Literature, causes many people to _under_rate it as a musical country. Did I underrate it, too? Possibly. France has an Early Music tradition that goes back to Rameau, Couperin and Lully, as well as masters in virtually every compositional era.

The *Italy/Austria* positioning is great food-for-thought, too. Italy is deep, way deep, with two-dozen names we could rattle off without stating an unfamiliar one to reasonably knowledgeable classical enthusiasts. Don't think Austria can make that claim. My point, though, is this: what would be a greater loss to posterity- the loss of all Classical Music by _Italian_-born composers, or the loss of all such music by _Austrian_-born composers? I'd contend that the Austrian loss would be the greater one.

Could you let me know how much separation existed between Italy & Austria in your methodology? 
(P.S.: Thanks for your contributions so far.) CTP


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> The *Italy/Austria* positioning is great food-for-thought, too. Italy is deep, way deep, with two-dozen names we could rattle off without stating an unfamiliar one to reasonably knowledgeable classical enthusiasts. Don't think Austria can make that claim. My point, though, is this: what would be a greater loss to posterity- the loss of all Classical Music by _Italian_-born composers, or the loss of all such music by _Austrian_-born composers? I'd contend that the Austrian loss would be the greater one.
> 
> Could you let me know how much separation existed between Italy & Austria in your methodology?


I agree that the position of Italy and Austria is highly debatable. Clearly Austria can boast some of the very best composers (Mozart, Haydn, Schubert). However, as you recognise, there is a long list of Italian composers covering most periods in classical music history. I fully accept that some of those listed below are more famous than others, and I am not suggesting they are all "great", but it does show that Italian classical music has a long pedigree with a representation in all or most periods:

Renaissance: Palestrina, Gabrielli, Gesualdo

Early Baroque: : Monteverdi, Frescobaldi

Mid Baroque: Lully (NB was born in Italy, which is my criterion for nationality)

Late Baroque: Corelli, Vivaldi, Scarlatti (A), Albinoni

Pre-Classical: Scarlatti (D), Pergolesi, Sammartini

Classical: Boccherini, Salieri, Cimarosa

Post Classical: Cherubini, Clementi, Rossini

Romantic: Verdi, Puccini, Donizetti, Bellini,

Impressionist:: Malipiero

Late Romantic: Respighi, Busoni, Leoncavallo

Neo-Romantic: Castelnuovo-Tedesco

Expressionist/Neo-Classical: Henze

Avante-Garde: Nono, Berio

Overall, on my reckoning, Italy comes out ahead of Austria by a fairly significant margin. This is mainly because of Italy's wider coverage of the various periods of music, and hence having a higher probability that it will find an interested audience at least somewhere. I could be wrong about this and I don't have any strong feelings over the matter.


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

(Composers are not _entirely_ ranked...

1) *Germany*- Beethoven, Brahms, Bach, Hindemith, R. Strauss (sorry for the key exclusion, Chi_town ) 
2) *Russia*- Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Khachaturian, Kabalevsky, Tchaikovsky
3) *Hungary*- Bartok, Liszt, Kodaly, Goldmark
4) *Austria*- Haydn, Schubert, Mahler, Bruckner
5) *Scandinavia* (collectively)- Nielsen, Sibelius, Grieg, Alfven
6) *France*- Berlioz, Ravel, Saint-Saens, Debussy, Messiaen
7) *U.K*- Holst, M. Arnold, Elgar, Britten, R.V. Williams 
8) *United States* (this ain't the Olympics!)- Gershwin, Copland, John T. Williams, Bolcom, Hanson
9) *Italy*- Rossini, Verdi, Respighi, Vivaldi (If this were a _conductor_, as opposed to a composer, ranking Italy would be ranked higher in my list.) 
10)*Checkoslovakia*- Dvorak, Smentana (Two great composers--the "800-pound gorillas" in the extent of my familiarity of the music originating in this country. Suggestions are welcomed.)


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

They aren't really ranked at all; Just composers that really come to mind with each country.

*Italy*- Claudio Monteverdi, Luigi De Palestrina, Vivaldi, Clementi, Scarlatti, Paganini.

*France*- Liszt (he may not have been so french, but it was his primary country, so I attribute him to France), Charles Valentin Morhange Alkan, Claude-Achille Debussy, Ravel, Jean-Phillipe Rameau, Chopin, Pierne, Bizet.

*United States*- John Cowell, Samuil Yevgenyevich Feinberg, Godowsky, Korngold.

*Germany*- Adolf Van Henselt, Joseph Heller, R. Strauss, Wagner, Heir Beethoven, Mahler, Brahms, Greig.

*Russia*-Scriabin, Tchaikovsky, Medtner, Roslavets, Mosolov, Blumenfeld, Bortkiewicz, Lyapunov, Prokofeiv, Catoire, Erno Dohnanyi, Rachmanninov, Balakirev, Xaver Scharwenka.

*Spain*-Carcassi, Sorabji, Nazareth, Cameron.

*England*-Bird, Mendelsohnn, Bach.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Mendelssohn in England? Ok that Hamburg, where he was born, had many ties with the English royal family, but that doesn't make him any more English. Had he not had an excellent education, I'd doubt he would utter any word of English (like Haydn didn't).


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Mendelssohn in England? Ok that Hamburg, where he was born, had many ties with the English royal family, but that doesn't make him any more English. Had he not had an excellent education, I'd doubt he would utter any word of English (like Haydn didn't).


Thank you for correcting me. I wish I could remember things as well as yourself, really


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Ok, my favorites in *bold *the three I consider themost important:
England: *Tallis*, *Byrd*, Gibbons, *Purcell*, Britten.
Ireland: *Field *(er.. any other?)
France: Machaut, Dufay, Janequin, Lully, Couperin, *Rameau*, Méhul, Berlioz, *Debussy*, *Messiaen*.
Spain: Flecha, *Victoria*, Granados, *Albéniz*, *de Falla*
Portugal: *Duarte Lobo*, Manuel Cardoso, *Carlos Seixas*, *João Domingos Bomtempo
*
Italy: Palestrina, *Monteverdi*, Cavalli, Corelli, A. Scarlatti, *Vivaldi*, D. Scarlatti, Boccherini, Cimarosa, Rossini, Bellini, *Verdi*, Puccini, Respighi, Dallapicolla, Berio. (Italy has a long and important tradition, unfortunately overlooked by the normal concertgoer).
Germany: Schütz, *JS Bach*, CPE Bach, Telemann, Gluck, *Beethoven*, Schumann, Weber, Mendelssohn, Brahms, *Wagner*.
Austria: Biber, *Haydn*, *Mozart*, *Schubert*, Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg, Berg, Webern.
Czechia: Myslivecek, *Smetana*, *Dvorak*, *Janacek*, Martinu.
Hungary: *Liszt*, Erkel, *Bartók*, Kodály, *Ligeti*, Kurtág
Russia: Glinka, *Mussorgsky*, Tchaikovsky, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff, *Stravinsky*, *Prokofiev*, Shostakovich, Schnittke.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

*1-5*: Germany, Austria, France, Russia and Italy (probably in that order)

*6-10*: UK, US, Hungary, Czech republic and... _Poland_, I guess, with Chopin, Penderecki, Szymanowski, Noskowski, Lutoslawski, Moniuszko, Gorecki, Bacewicz and so on.

Sweden, Finland and Norway, I would place somewhere in the 11-20 range.


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

Rondo said:


> ...
> 10)*Checkoslovakia*- Dvorak, Smentana (Two great composers--the "800-pound gorillas" in the extent of my familiarity of the music originating in this country. Suggestions are welcomed.)


Another Czech composer I plan to explore in the near future is Martinu. Perhaps, after becoming more familiar with his music he would be added to that short list.

Also, "country" should be plural there.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Rondo said:


> 1) *Germany*- Beethoven, Brahms, Bach, Hindemith, R. Strauss (sorry for the key exclusion, Chi_town )


Brought a little smile to my face... 


Rondo said:


> 10)*Czechoslovakia*- Dvorak, Smentana (Two great composers--the "800-pound gorillas" in the extent of my familiarity of the music originating in this country. Suggestions are welcomed.)


Of course _Janáček_ would then be the 600 lb. gorilla.

@ *bdelykleon*: are you willing to provide a numerical ranking for your list of natiionalities?!


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I wonder if we should consider Ludwig Van as german. He was born and lived in Germany, but this is not where his family came from.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

For Finland I would add Einojuhani Rautavaara and Kalevi Aho.

And for Estonia (what? Estonia?) I would have Veljo Tormis and Erkki-Sven Tüür.

As I see it, these are the most important living composers.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

1. Germany/Austria
2. Italy
3. Russia

I think these 3 can no longer be disputed.

Germany and Austria has been the hub of music since the baroque times. They have produced most of the significant composers in any era or form. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn, Schubert, Schumann, Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner, Schoenberg.

Italy may be slightly less prominent but has been a huge force since the renessaince. ITalian opera is most likely the largest branch of opera.
In the baroque you have the masters such as Vivaldi, Pergolesi and Monteverdi,, not to mention scores of other composers ending with 'i' (scarlatti etc..)
The classical period is probably where italy is weakest, Albinoni, Cimarosa and Salieri are probably the most prominent here.
In the romantic era the Italian opera comes to life fully, Rossini, Puccini, Verdi, Bellini, Donizetti. Paganini is also important here.

Then still into the 20th century Italy has respighi and Busoni.

Russia has been influential during the romantic and modern eras. THe largest and most important nationalistic movement finds itself in the 5. But russia has also produced many great composers outside nationalism who could write in all forms.
Tchaikovsky is the most significant, he mastered ballet, symphony, concerto, chamber music etc.. Then there is the 5, a powerhouse of nationalism (mussorgsky, rimsky). 
We also have Shostakovich ,Scriabin, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov, Tcherepnin, Taneyev, Gliere, Kabalevsky, Myaskovsky, Glazunov, Arensky, Schnittke, Shchedrin.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Aramis said:


> I wonder if we should consider Ludwig Van as german. He was born and lived in Germany, but this is not where his family came from.


Yes his family was dutch!


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Also I do not think Finland is so great. They have one brilliant, significant composer - Sibelius.
Then they have many contemporary composers who are well known but are miniscule on the grander scale.

Sweden has a much larger roster of composers who have survived time, albeit none of them have reached the same heights as sibelius.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> Brought a little smile to my face...
> Of course _Janáček_ would then be the 600 lb. gorilla.


I'd say Leos is a 400 kg gorilla.



Chi_town/Philly said:


> @ *bdelykleon*: are you willing to provide a numerical ranking for your list of natiionalities?!


in *bold *the three I consider themost important:
1- Germany: Schütz, *JS Bach*, CPE Bach, Telemann, Gluck, *Beethoven*, Schumann, Weber, Mendelssohn, Brahms, *Wagner*.
2- Italy: Palestrina, *Monteverdi*, Cavalli, Corelli, A. Scarlatti, *Vivaldi*, D. Scarlatti, Boccherini, Cimarosa, Rossini, Bellini, *Verdi*, Puccini, Respighi, Dallapicolla, Berio.
3- Austria: Biber, *Haydn*, *Mozart*, *Schubert*, Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg, Berg, Webern.
4- France: Machaut, Janequin, Lully, Couperin, *Rameau*, Méhul, Berlioz, *Debussy*, *Messiaen*.
5- Russia: Glinka, *Mussorgsky*, Tchaikovsky, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff, *Stravinsky*, *Prokofiev*, Shostakovich, Schnittke.
6- Czechia: Myslivecek, *Smetana*, *Dvorak*, *Janacek*, Martinu.
7- Hungary: *Liszt*, Erkel, *Bartók*, Kodály, *Ligeti*, Kurtág
8- Poland: *Chopin*, Moniuszko, *Szymanowski*, *Lutoslawski*, Penderecki.
9- England: *Tallis*, *Byrd*, Gibbons, *Purcell*, Britten.
10- Belgium: *Dufay*, Ockeghem, *Josquin*, de Lassus, da Rore, Gossec, _Cesar Franck_
11- Spain: Flecha, *Victoria*, Granados, *Albéniz*, *de Falla*

Of course there are several other nations but I don't know 5 composers to name (Netherlands, Danmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland) , and although I certainly know 5 Brazilian, POrtuguese, Argentinan and Greek composers, I don't think it is relevant to put it here, as there are more relevant nations ahead.


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> Of course _Janáček_ would then be the 600 lb. gorilla.


I can't say I've heard enough of Janáček's music to make any kind of judgment. I wouldn't want to make what I would think of as a mistake in thinking that _Sinfonia_ is representative of his greatest works.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

emiellucifuge said:


> Also I do not think Finland is so great. They have one brilliant, significant composer - Sibelius.
> Then they have many contemporary composers who are well known but are miniscule on the grander scale.


Kalevi Aho is neither well-known nor is he miniscule in any way. Rautavaara I can see this being tacked onto, but I still believe that both of their music is much more significant than many people are willing to admit. In fact, I believe whole-heartedly that the Finns and Estonians compose more than anything else in what will be called the 21st century style, much more cosmopolitan, free with style, etc.


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

Rondo said:


> I can't say I've heard enough of Janáček's music to make any kind of judgment. I wouldn't want to make what I would think of as a mistake in thinking that _Sinfonia_ is representative of his greatest works.


Czech music must surely be represented by its 4 great composers and I feel all four must be present on any list like this -

Dvorak 800lb gorilla
Smetana 600lb
Janacek 600lb
Martinu 400lb


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

JAKE WYB said:


> Czech music must surely be represented by its 4 great composers and I feel all four must be present on any list like this -
> 
> Dvorak 800lb gorilla
> Smetana 600lb
> ...


Hm, ok, but I prefer Janacek over Dvorak and Smetana. He is more original and has a more diverse output, chamber, symphonic, piano and opera.


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

JAKE WYB said:


> Dvorak 800lb gorilla
> ...


Ok. I think the metaphor has run its course.


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