# Become Ocean



## mahlernerd (Jan 19, 2020)

John Luther Adams’ Pulitzer Prize-winning work is a phenomenal representation of the waters that cover our earth, and while some people tell me when they listen that “there’s nothing going on,” you have to listen further to realize that there might be more going on in this piece than any other. If you have not heard this piece, I highly recommend to sit down, close your eyes, and listen intently. The Seattle Symphony Orchestra has a fantastic recording of this piece and the Bergen Philharmonic has recently performed and taped a performance. You can view it at bergenphilive.com. So, what do you think of this piece? Do you love it like I do?


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

I bought the Seattle recording about a year ago. I have only listened to it one time. My initial impression was _"Meh! It's OK but not highly interesting"_

Maybe I'll like it more the day I decide to play it again.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

This thread is in the wrong sub-forum.


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## mahlernerd (Jan 19, 2020)

Vasks said:


> I bought the Seattle recording about a year ago. I have only listened to it one time. My initial impression was _"Meh! It's OK but not highly interesting"_
> 
> Maybe I'll like it more the day I decide to play it again.


That's exactly what I thought of the SSO recording. You should see the Bergen Philharmonic perform this on their website. It is truly breathtaking, and made me see the piece for what it really was.

https://www.bergenphilive.no/video-konserter/2019/12/adams-become-ocean/


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## mahlernerd (Jan 19, 2020)

Vasks said:


> I bought the Seattle recording about a year ago. I have only listened to it one time. My initial impression was _"Meh! It's OK but not highly interesting"_
> 
> Maybe I'll like it more the day I decide to play it again.


That's exactly what I thought of the SSO recording. You should see the Bergen Philharmonic perform this on their website. It is truly breathtaking, and made me see the piece for what it really was.

https://www.bergenphilive.no/video-konserter/2019/12/adams-become-ocean/


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

This thread is *still* in the wrong sub-forum.


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## mahlernerd (Jan 19, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> This thread is in the wrong sub-forum.


I'm sorry I'm still new here. How do you change the subforum?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

mahlernerd said:


> I'm sorry I'm still new here. How do you change the subforum?


You would have to report to a moderator.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I had the same reaction to this piece as Vasks. But I haven't heard any other recordings.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

mahlernerd said:


> I'm sorry I'm still new here. How do you change the subforum?


Don't sweat it. It's not a big deal. Thanks for contributing something.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

The first time I heard Become Ocean I enjoyed it enough to place it on my long list of works I wanted to explore further or possibly purchase. I've heard it twice since then including today. I can certainly understand many feeling there's not enough in the work to excite them. There's a rising and falling background of sound with often subtle figures appearing within it. One has to pay particular attention to those figures throughout a somewhat long piece to receive the rewards listening to it can have. Having said that, I enjoyed the work today more than either of my earlier listenings. Incidentally, I imagine string players might dislike playing the work. 

I moved the thread to the General Music Discussion. NOTE: If you feel a thread is in the wrong forum, posting that information directly in the thread generally will be useless since moderators may very well not see the thread. Please PM one of us with the information, and we can decide whether and where to move the thread. Thanks.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

This "music" may work better in the Bergen presentation than it did at home when I bought the CD. The lighting effects probably made it more atmospheric. It's still a dull work in my opinion - all effects and no action. Not a single tune - no surprise there. It's aural wallpaper really. What non-musician listeners may not appreciate is how mind-numbingly dull music like this is to play. So no, I don't love it. I can see it being a decent score for some sci-fi epic film though.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

This is a very good example of contemporary why tonal music is rubbish, this is for addled gereatrics, not for serious sophisticated connoisseurs at the leading edge of life, like what I am.

Contrast the wonderful Occam's Ocean -- same concept, magnificent execution


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> This is a very good example of contemporary why tonal music is rubbish, this is for addled gereatrics, not for serious sophisticated connoisseurs at the leading edge of life, like what I am.


I'm not sure if you are joking here - at least about the stuff besides disliking the music. I wondered if you actually feel that all contemporary tonal music is rubbish. That seems like a rather extreme view.


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## Dorsetmike (Sep 26, 2018)

Neither of the above oceans float my boat, I've heard more melodic sounds from an orchestra tuning prior to a performance! I can't really express an opinion as the language would lead to a ban.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

JLA is rubbish and a terrible point to judge contemporary music from. I paid to hear the Jack Quartet play his work live and attended the free concert of his music at the SF baths and I listen to a lot of contemporary music so my opinion is a good as anybody's.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

mmsbls said:


> . I wondered if you actually feel that all contemporary tonal music is rubbish. That seems like a rather extreme view.


Clearly the good bits of _The People United Will Never be Defeated _(Rzewsky) are not tonal. I don't know.

I've tried and tried to see the point behind Howard Skempton's music. And failed.

I don't believe that Feldman wrote tonal music.

So yes, I'm inclined to think that it's just not possible to write tonal music any more. Extreme or not. We've passed the tonal stage, just like we've passed the Alexandre Dumas type narrative stage. That sort of thing is OK for popular stuff, but it's not serious, it's not mature.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Dorsetmike said:


> Neither of the above oceans float my boat, I've heard more melodic sounds from an orchestra tuning prior to a performance! I can't really express an opinion as the language would lead to a ban.


I think it's a bit stupid to try and find melody in the Radigue, and even more stupid to think that melody is a necessary attribute of good music.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> This is a very good example of contemporary why tonal music is rubbish, this is for addled gereatrics, not for serious sophisticated connoisseurs at the leading edge of life, like what I am.
> 
> Contrast the wonderful Occam's Ocean -- same concept, magnificent execution


From my perspective, the only advantage the above piece has over John Luther's is that it's a lot shorter.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> From my perspective, the only advantage the above piece has over John Luther's is that it's a lot shorter.


In fact the series is _a lot_ longer, you've just got a snippet there. When I rule the world I shall have my henchmen tie you to a chair and make you listen to this on loop until you agree that I am right.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> In fact the series is _a lot_ longer, you've just got a snippet there. When I rule the world I shall have my henchmen tie you to a chair and make you listen to this on loop until you agree that I am right.


I'm into time travel, so I won't be in that chair when you come back to hear my agreement.

Getting serious for a moment, have you really listened to those sounds for over an hour in one sitting?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

mahlernerd said:


> That's exactly what I thought of the SSO recording. You should see the Bergen Philharmonic perform this on their website. It is truly breathtaking, and made me see the piece for what it really was.
> 
> https://www.bergenphilive.no/video-konserter/2019/12/adams-become-ocean/


I sampled through it (no way am I going to listen attentively through it all). At first I thought, the usual minimalistic fare, but around 22:00 I thought that was a great sound. Between 22:00 to 24:00 is the highlight for me.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> I'm into time travel, so I won't be in that chair when you come back to hear my agreement.
> 
> Getting serious for a moment, have you really listened to those sounds for over an hour in one sitting?


No, but a friend of mine went to a concert in Donaueschingen where he heard seven of them performed consecutively and he loved it, but he's like that. Mad and neurotic. So am I -- I'd go to that concert.

Occam's Ocean is a series of pieces for different instruments, each one I guess between 10 and 15 minutes.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

mahlernerd said:


> John Luther Adams' Pulitzer Prize-winning work is a phenomenal representation of the waters that cover our earth, and while some people tell me when they listen that "there's nothing going on," you have to listen further to realize that there might be more going on in this piece than any other. If you have not heard this piece, I highly recommend to sit down, close your eyes, and listen intently. The Seattle Symphony Orchestra has a fantastic recording of this piece and the Bergen Philharmonic has recently performed and taped a performance. You can view it at bergenphilive.com. So, what do you think of this piece? Do you love it like I do?


It's one of my favourite compositions of the 21st century - actually one of my favourite compositions, full stop. My initial reaction on hearing (the first few minutes of) the Seattle recording wasn't great - yes, fell for the "there's nothing going on" trap. But a few full listens persuaded me otherwise, and then I had the chance to see it performed in Dublin (European premiere, IIRC), which confirmed its magnificence for me. It's a wonderful structure, but at the same time I think it helps not to think about the structure at all, just let all those swells wash across you, never knowing when the next great climax will come.


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## mahlernerd (Jan 19, 2020)

Nereffid said:


> It's one of my favourite compositions of the 21st century - actually one of my favourite compositions, full stop. My initial reaction on hearing (the first few minutes of) the Seattle recording wasn't great - yes, fell for the "there's nothing going on" trap. But a few full listens persuaded me otherwise, and then I had the chance to see it performed in Dublin (European premiere, IIRC), which confirmed its magnificence for me. It's a wonderful structure, but at the same time I think it helps not to think about the structure at all, just let all those swells wash across you, never knowing when the next great climax will come.


Have you listened to the sequel Become Desert? I thought that piece was fantastic, but I believe that you need to see a live performance to fully experience the piece, since there is the idea of putting the music on all sides of you. I really wish that on Spotify (as that is my main music source) there was a recording of Become River, but in my opinion, Become Ocean will always be JLA's masterpiece.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

mahlernerd said:


> Have you listened to the sequel Become Desert? I thought that piece was fantastic, but I believe that you need to see a live performance to fully experience the piece, since there is the idea of putting the music on all sides of you. I really wish that on Spotify (as that is my main music source) there was a recording of Become River, but in my opinion, Become Ocean will always be JLA's masterpiece.


I've got the recording of _Become Desert_ but it didn't grab me the same way. But then again I grew up near an ocean but not a desert!

If you want to hear _Become River_, try this: https://www.newsounds.org/story/listen-west-coast-premiere-of-john-luther-adams-become-river/


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> So yes, I'm inclined to think that it's just not possible to write tonal music any more. Extreme or not. We've passed the tonal stage, just like we've passed the Alexandre Dumas type narrative stage. That sort of thing is OK for popular stuff, but it's not serious, it's not mature.


Are you implying that popular music is "not serious" and "mature"? If so, I vehemently disagree.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Portamento said:


> Are you implying that popular music is "not serious" and "mature"? If so, I vehemently disagree.


I think I probably am implying that, but I don't have time to do more than assert it now . . . tomorrow maybe.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> This "music" may work better in the Bergen presentation than it did at home when I bought the CD. The lighting effects probably made it more atmospheric. It's still a dull work in my opinion - all effects and no action. Not a single tune - no surprise there. It's aural wallpaper really. What non-musician listeners may not appreciate is how mind-numbingly dull music like this is to play. So no, I don't love it. I can see it being a decent score for some sci-fi epic film though.


I'm curious - why do you say that this work would be dull for a performer? Is it because of the minimal ie repetitive nature of their parts or because you suspect that most of them would share your low estimation of the work (ie aesthetically)? Surely, if a musician loves how the work sounds, then any reservations about how uninteresting their part is would be irrelevant?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> Clearly the good bits of _The People United Will Never be Defeated _(Rzewsky) are not tonal. I don't know.
> 
> I've tried and tried to see the point behind Howard Skempton's music. And failed.
> 
> ...


...and folk who go to concerts featuring works composed before the advent of atonality are listening to immature works?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I believe a clip of Become Ocean is used in 'The Revenant'.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> This is a very good example of contemporary why tonal music is rubbish, this is for addled gereatrics, not for serious sophisticated connoisseurs at the leading edge of life, like what I am.
> 
> Contrast the wonderful Occam's Ocean -- same concept, magnificent execution


The clip you post features an Eb maj7 chord held for three minutes. Why is this magnificent?


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

> ...a phenomenal representation of the waters that cover our earth, and while some people tell me when they listen that "there's nothing going on," you have to listen further to realize that there might be more going on in this piece than any other... So, what do you think of this piece? Do you love it like I do?


Well, no, I don't love it. Music that drones on and on like this can be effective in film scores or in other formats where this can be inserted in small doses. But 42:13? Yikes!

This is music for the carrousel in Logan's Run or something to be played in a Day Spa. (Although I've never been to a day spa, I imagine this is what I would hear.)

I'm glad you enjoy this, but I don't know how many times you would have someone listen to this before the realization that there is "more going on in this piece than any other" hits them. I don't think I'd ever get there.


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

janxharris said:


> The clip you post features an Eb maj7 chord held for three minutes. Why is this magnificent?


On Occam Ocean, Éliane Radigue said
_"Regardless of what is being used, the essential goal is to produce and bring out the partials, the overtones, the harmonics and sub harmonics, these vibrations in the air, not only those of the string or the breath, but the intangible contents of sound. An instrument vibrating beyond the fundamental(s) generates an extraordinary richness that turns into fascination. This calls for extreme simplicity, i.e. sounds maintained between piano and mezzo forte dynamic levels, beyond which the fundamental again becomes predominant. Hence the famous law from Occam's Razor, never overdo anything, concentrate instead on breath control, or a gentle stroke, that caress of a key or a string that is sufficient to develop and enrich this infinite universe."_

It does not sound atonality, and what she and JL Adams are doing seem to have something in common. Of course it is fine to like one and dislike another calling it rubbish, but it is odd to present them as a tonality vs atonality case.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

One thing I like about the Radigue is that it reveals what was there in the sound all the time, but you may never have noticed. And it directs you clearly, she leads you gently and firmly through the music. 

A lot of music is really an exploration of the physicality of sound, from Satie through Cage and on to people like Oliveros and Frey and this later work of Radigue.

(sorry Henry Penfold! In editing I posted it twice!)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> One thing I like about the Radigue is that it reveals what was there in the sound all the time, but you may never have noticed. And it directs you clearly, she leads you gently and firmly through the music.
> 
> A lot of music is really an exploration of the physicality of sound, from Satie through Cage and on to people like Oliveros and Frey and this later work of Radigue.
> 
> (sorry Henry Penfold! In editing I posted it twice!)


It reminded me somewhat of Godspeed You! Black Emperor - F# A#.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

janxharris said:


> It reminded me somewhat of Godspeed You! Black Emperor - F# A#.


I can certainly see why someone would say that this is just not classical music in the same sense as a Mozart piano sonata.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> In fact the series is _a lot_ longer, you've just got a snippet there. When I rule the world I shall have my henchmen tie you to a chair and make you listen to this on loop until you agree that I am right.


If Occam had to listen to this he would take his razor and slit his wrists.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> If Occam had to listen to this he would take his razor and slit his wrists.


I love suicide humor. :lol:


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## mahlernerd (Jan 19, 2020)

gregorx said:


> I'm glad you enjoy this, but I don't know how many times you would have someone listen to this before the realization that there is "more going on in this piece than any other" hits them. I don't think I'd ever get there.


Well, if you look more in depth into the piece, you will find that this piece is actually written for three separate orchestras, and as Ludovic Morlot puts it, "each has their own separate journey and rhythm." This is implying that there are basically three groups doing their own thing together during the course of 42 minutes.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> If Occam had to listen to this he would take his razor and slit his wrists.


I felt guilty that I laughed at this...I guess composers such as Radigue have to respect all opinions...good and not so good.


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