# Do You Like Contemporary/Experimental Music...



## wisetankian (Sep 6, 2009)

Listening to Schnittke cello sonatas...very beautiful and interesting- what do you guys think? And of contemporary music in general? Or experimental classical music? Composers? 

Leave some thoughts, because there is something to be said about those classifications of music...those of which stray away from traditionalist classical music...


----------



## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

There is a similar thread I think, on the "dilemma" of contemporary music.


----------



## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

danae said:


> There is a similar thread I think, on the "dilemma" of contemporary music.


The "monster thread". Go there at your peril. You may need rescuing.


----------



## nickgray (Sep 28, 2008)

wisetankian said:


> Listening to Schnittke cello sonatas...very beautiful and interesting- what do you guys think?


I like his string quartets, very... dunno, haunting? Scary? Sorta like Shostakovich's late quartets, but the "death" theme developed even further. Schnittke is good, I enjoy most of his music, except for really experimental stuff, polystylism, for example.

Generally I'm ok with the so-called contemporary classical, except when it uses over-the-top experimentation, which counts for a lot of this music, unfortunately for me. Or when music is being too abstract, in fact, so abstract it doesn't seem to be anything other than a bunch of sounds played in a particular way.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Yeah, I like composers like Schnittke, Varese, Messiaen, Ligeti, Tal, Henze, Xenakis, Gubaidulina, etc. It's wierd how even though all of these except the last one are now dead, we still think of them as 'contemporary.' No doubt they were experimental but is their music still contemporary, now that they are no longer with us? I suppose this is somewhat a question of semantics, no doubt...

The only thing that I have heard that went 'over the top' as Nick Gray describes, was Stockhausen's _Helicopter Sonata_. I suppose I'm not very attracted to pieces like this, that seem to be more about novelty for it's own sake rather than making a serious musical statement. That said, I'm still open to hearing anything & giving it a chance, especially on radio. There doesn't really seem to be alot of exposure of this type of music on the airwaves, maybe because it doesn't engage some people as much as the more established stuff. So I prick my ears up anytime it comes up. For example, last night I heard a French concert on the radio in which they played Messiaen's _'Smile_,' a homage to Mozart. Things like this are quite interesting to me, generally speaking...


----------



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

I'm beginning to enjoy some contemporary music like John Adams, Gorecki, Part, and Reich. I'm going to be pursuing these composers' music hopefully as time goes on.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Music should often be experimental. I do hope the experiments in complete atonality have about run their course however. I mean, 100 years is long enough, don't you think?


----------



## Jaime77 (Jun 29, 2009)

The Schinttke Cello Sonata, I only know one of them, I think No. 2 and I like that a lot. He is 'easy' to follow and listen to than a lot of other contemporary composers. If you are going to be atonal at least have clear changes of mood between movements so the structure is easy to follow. There are some minor chords and modal folksy stuff in Schnittke too - polystylist.


----------



## wisetankian (Sep 6, 2009)

Andre said:


> The only thing that I have heard that went 'over the top' as Nick Gray describes, was Stockhausen's _Helicopter Sonata_.


Wow, just saw the video of the Helicopter quartet. Quite something else...I wouldn't know if labeling such a perverse approach to music 'over the top' is appropriate...It lends to the criticism something entirely non-literal or objective...It is obviously odd to the reciever- to the audience...Yet over the top I am not sure...

It's purposes I feel are to provoke and to feel such sentiments of confusion or discomfort...So in a way, your feelings are valid...hmm


----------



## classidaho (May 5, 2009)

I do like Arron Copeland ......and I think (I know not exactly in the classical realm) Andrew Lloyd Weber is a musical genious that could be a magnificant composer! 2cts, Chuck

I often wonder what the general consenses is on Paul McArtney's venture into the classics? I am still looking at that with some distance, but not really negative about it.


----------



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

classidaho said:


> I do like Arron Copeland ......and I think (I know not exactly in the classical realm) Andrew Lloyd Weber is a musical genious that could be a magnificant composer!


I find Andrew Lloyd Weber to be trite and unimaginative drivel. I heard a recording of his "Requiem" and I thought it was hideous, but that's just my opinion.


----------



## andruini (Apr 14, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> I'm beginning to enjoy some contemporary music like John Adams, Gorecki, Part, and Reich. I'm going to be pursuing these composers' music hopefully as time goes on.


 You are just making me really happy today.. I'd never thought I'd see the day! What works have you enjoyed by these composers, might I ask?


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Mirror Image said:


> I find Andrew Lloyd Weber to be trite and unimaginative drivel. I heard a recording of his "Requiem" and I thought it was hideous, but that's just my opinion.


I love the Requiem -- if only because I think it's kind of hilarious but also stirring when Placido Domingo rocks in the Sanctus section ("Hosanna in excelsis. Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini.") Generally I think ALW is little more than a musical theater composer though, in the tradition of Rogers and Hammerstein. Not classical, definitely not experimental, and not my thing.


----------



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

andruini said:


> You are just making me really happy today.. I'd never thought I'd see the day! What works have you enjoyed by these composers, might I ask?


Of Part's music, I've heard several, but the ones that stood out was "Summa" and "Cantus in Memory of Benjamin Britten." Both are incrediblely beautiful works. Gorecki, I heard "Symphony No. 3 - Symphony of Sorrowful Songs," which I need to listen to again. John Adams, I heard "Harmonielehre," "The Chairman Dances," and "Short Ride in a Fast Machine." All are pretty darn good too. Of Reich, I've heard a lot --- "Music for 18 Musicians," "Octet," "Different Trains," "Electric Counterpoint," "Music for Large Ensemble," "The Desert Music," and "Tehillim." I'm not a big Reich fan in all honesty, but as a collector, I own a good bit of his output.


----------



## Guest (Sep 13, 2009)

*Do You Like Contemporary/Experimental Music... ?????*

Not really, I will stick with the old masters, [I do like some of today's composers but they are far and few between]


----------



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andante said:


> *Do You Like Contemporary/Experimental Music... ?????*
> 
> Not really, I will stick with the old masters, [I do like some of today's composers but they are far and few between]


If feel the same way, but I'm trying to be a bit more open-minded.


----------



## Guest (Sep 13, 2009)

Oh MI, I am open minded but find that I am continually disappointed, I just feel that a lot of them have lost the plot, some of it is very clever but if it sounds awful what is the point? let those that enjoy it have it and leave me to listen to what I consider beautiful music.


----------



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andante said:


> Oh MI, I am open minded but find that I am continually disappointed, I just feel that a lot of them have lost the plot, some of it is very clever but if it sounds awful what is the point? let those that enjoy it have it and leave me to listen to what I consider beautiful music.


Have you heard Gandolfi's "The Garden of Cosmic Speculation"? I was very surprised by this recording. It's conducted by Robert Spano and performed by the Atlanta Symphony Orch. on Telarc. It's really a great recording, because it looks to the past as much as does the present. It's actually very clever and tuneful. Something I can't say for a lot of contemporary classical music.










There's good contemporary classical music out there. You just have to dig a little deeper to find it.


----------



## Guest (Sep 13, 2009)

I have heard of it but not actually heard it played. btw I tried to send a PM to you but you must have it disabled ?


----------



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andante said:


> I have heard of it but not actually heard it played. btw I tried to send a PM to you but you must have it disabled ?


Actually, the moderators took my PM rights away from me. I also can't leave people visitor messages. For better or for worse, I can't PM anymore.


----------



## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

I don't listen to much contemporary music. I listen to Ligeti, Part, Glass. That's about it.


----------



## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Actually, the moderators took my PM rights away from me. I also can't leave people visitor messages. For better or for worse, I can't PM anymore.


Oh that's why you haven't answered to my PM! At least I hope that's the reason.

Why can't you PM anymore? Too many ad-hominems?


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm not a fan of contemporary classical music, but it wouldn't surprise if the next generation of composers takes a turn towards something based on tonality and the 'common practice period'.

Western classical music has had a relatively short history compared to the other fine arts, and, in that short history, many advances were made by fantastic composers. This, however, I feel has been interpreted as a sign that all art and all music must be in some way original, and must the boundaries of the form in order to be worthy of good criticism.

Thus, it seems to me that contemporary art has taken an ill-turn; it is nothing more than a pseudo-intellectual study in 'how can we do things as differently as possible'.

Even if we were to accept that new art must be in some way groundbreaking, there seems to be an unnecessary taboo over tonality. People are praised if they 'are not scared of dissonance', and they are out-of-their-mind conservatives if they compose a tune. But why is there this false dilemma? Is atonality somehow the _only_ way forwards? The fact is that it is a binary question. There's tonality and there's atonality. Are they really suggesting that tonality had its day in the past few centuries, and now, _for the entire future of all music_, we must be atonal for fear of being too retrospective? We simply need some geniuses to take music down a tonal route in order to rediscover the power of classical music in a modern world.


----------



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> Oh that's why you haven't answered to my PM! At least I hope that's the reason.
> 
> Why can't you PM anymore? Too many ad-hominems?


Yes too many ad homs. I would have messaged you if I could.


----------



## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Yes too many ad homs. I would have messaged you if I could.


Well, what did you expect? The moderators couldn't let you harass people forever 

By the way, I posted some pieces of mine. They're in the "Today's composers" sub-forum. Would you listen and tell me what you think?


----------



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> Well, what did you expect? The moderators couldn't let you harass people forever
> 
> By the way, I posted some pieces of mine. They're in the "Today's composers" sub-forum. Would you listen and tell me what you think?


Sure, I think I can make my over way there.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm actually beginning to really enjoy composers whose music is either atonal, or they push tonality really to the limits. I've had enough of the cliches in classical, I'm always looking out for something 'new.' Even though it might be by an established composer, eg. Henze, Gubaidulina, Part, Penderecki, Carter, it's bound to be more interesting (for me) than the same tired old classics, etc. 

To people who don't like this music I'd reverse their dictums, just because music is tonal or traditional, it doesn't mean it's better. For example, I was listening to one of Clementi's symphonies the other day on radio, and I thought it was really boring, a rehash of what Beethoven & Haydn did far much better. Ditto to one of Parry's tone poems (Life & Death or something) & it was just a rehash of Elgar & Brahms. I'd rather be listening to something that might not sound as 'nice' or 'comfortable' but at least it's challenging, stimulating & engaging. That's what I want music to be like & I think most contemporary composers I've heard cactually deliver the goods. But one has to be flexible to start with...


----------



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> I'm actually beginning to really enjoy composers whose music is either atonal, or they push tonality really to the limits. I've had enough of the cliches in classical, I'm always looking out for something 'new.' Even though it might be by an established composer, eg. Henze, Gubaidulina, Part, Penderecki, Carter, it's bound to be more interesting (for me) than the same tired old classics, etc.
> 
> To people who don't like this music I'd reverse their dictums, just because music is tonal or traditional, it doesn't mean it's better. For example, I was listening to one of Clementi's symphonies the other day on radio, and I thought it was really boring, a rehash of what Beethoven & Haydn did far much better. Ditto to one of Parry's tone poems (Life & Death or something) & it was just a rehash of Elgar & Brahms. I'd rather be listening to something that might not sound as 'nice' or 'comfortable' but at least it's challenging, stimulating & engaging. That's what I want music to be like & I think most contemporary composers I've heard cactually deliver the goods. But one has to be flexible to start with...


I wouldn't call Bruckner or Bartok a classical cliche.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> I wouldn't call Bruckner or Bartok a classical cliche.


Nope, definitely not, even they pushed tonality a bit, they weren't straightforwardly or 'typically' tonal.


----------



## wisetankian (Sep 6, 2009)

haydnguy said:


> I don't listen to much contemporary music. I listen to Ligeti, Part, Glass. That's about it.


lol, yeah i figured judging from your username...


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

I have to say I'd be a groupie for Sorabji.


----------



## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Lukecash12 said:


> I have to say I'd be a groupie for Sorabji.


Yeah, after hearing a few of his Transcendental studies, I'd definitely be counted in...


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Try his Archmagicum. It's really the best of his massive works. Much better than the Opus Clavicembalisticum (and I'm not saying it's all that bad either!).


----------



## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Lukecash12 said:


> Try his Archmagicum. It's really the best of his massive works. Much better than the Opus Clavicembalisticum (and I'm not saying it's all that bad either!).


I can't seem to find a recording of it... is there one?


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

You might have to buy it. either that or try IMSLP or somewhere so you can at least get the sheets. I know it's been recorded at one point or another. Got to play it myself in competition a while back. It's epic from both a technical and textural standpoint. You might call it the Clavicembalisticum with a bit more of a reference, maybe more conventional methods with forming rhythmic device and some Schoenberg/Roslavets type of chords structures.

It's definitely worth a look. If you can't find it, you can probably find a description of it on google at least.


----------



## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Lukecash12 said:


> You might have to buy it. either that or try IMSLP or somewhere so you can at least get the sheets. I know it's been recorded at one point or another. Got to play it myself in competition a while back. It's epic from both a technical and textural standpoint. You might call it the Clavicembalisticum with a bit more of a reference, maybe more conventional methods with forming rhythmic device and some Schoenberg/Roslavets type of chords structures.
> 
> It's definitely worth a look. If you can't find it, you can probably find a description of it on google at least.


The sheet music won't do me a lot of good; I'm no pianist in any capacity, and reading music with no reference is still none too easy. And it's apparently never been recorded, according to the Sorabji online archive... Oh well, I'm sure it will be sooner or later.


----------



## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

Lukecash12 said:


> I have to say I'd be a groupie for Sorabji.


Listened to a few pieces on youtube. Very interesting and I hope to find time to explore his music in more detail. Reminds me of Scriabin.


----------



## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

I'll throw Morton Feldman's name into the hat. I find his music haunting and lyrical. If you care to give him a try, I'd wait for a time when you are in the mood for something slow in tempo. In many of his pieces the music develops slowly, but my attention has no difficulty staying with the music.


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Now that we're in the hat throwing business, why not Roslavets (master of the chamber works) or Feinberg (master of the sonata)?


----------



## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

What about Cornelius Cardew? The title of the thread _*does*_ mention "experimental" also.


----------



## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

Lukecash12 said:


> Now that we're in the hat throwing business, why not Roslavets (master of the chamber works) or Feinberg (master of the sonata)?


 *tosses a 10 gallon stetson in your general direction* 
Thanks partner, not familiar with either composer. Any suggestion for a good introductory piece?


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Look up Roslavets Piano trio no 4: 




There's my very favorite part of it.

quote: "Among Russian composers declared "non-persons" by the Soviet government, Nikolai Roslavets has enjoyed the most spectacular revival in terms of new recordings and concert programming. Roslavets was born to a peasant family in the Ukraine, growing up in a community that was primarily illiterate. His boyhood talent for the violin paid off when he was accepted into the Russian Music Society in Kursk in a class for indigent pupils. Roslavets studied with Arkady M. Abaza, entering the Moscow Conservatory in 1901. He studied orchestration with Sergei Vasilenko, graduating from the Conservatory in 1912. At this early juncture his music still retained picaresque, popular elements, and this led to the creation of works such as the popular Dance of the White Women (1912). A piano prelude, Largo (1915), written as a memorial to Abaza, is one of Roslavets' finest creations. Completely independently of the Second Vienna School, Roslavets developed his own form of non-dodecaphonic serial composition. Roslavets derived his series from "sintetakkord," synthetic chords inspired by the "Prometheus Chord" of Scriabin. These were large chords that also contained a note row, which was used to create harmonic fields of greatly varying character. Roslavets did not use the "sintetakkord" as a basis for creating melody. His organized music is structurally terse, succinct, and profoundly workmanlike; yet wildly colorful, otherworldly, and crystalline. In early pieces that utilize this technique, such as the String Quartet No. 1 (1912), Roslavets alternates the organized material with tonal bridges and other points of reference. With the Violin Sonata No. 1 (1913), Roslavets began to fashion whole works in this medium, but not to the total exclusion of other, more conventional pieces. By 1919, Roslavets reached the conclusion that his "sintetakkord" system is perfected, synthesizing its most characteristic gestures into the Five Preludes for piano (1919-1921). Roslavets wrote a manual for use of the "sintetakkord" in 1927, which has since disappeared. The watchful eye of the Soviet government was focused upon Roslavets beginning in 1924, as Roslavets suddenly undertook the composition of mass songs for the public taste in great numbers. These are reputedly awful works, dreary agitprop texts winding through a soulless, banal, and repetitive folk melody setting. In a 1931 document, Roslavets officially repudiated his early work, deriding them as mere "experiments." He might not have bothered; the Soviet government continued to watch him closely anyway, as he moved through a soul draining progression of dull positions within the Soviet musical bureaucracy. He continued to compose Soviet Realist music until he suffered a stroke in 1939. Afterward, Roslavets lived on a military pension as the Soviets gradually erased his name from all encyclopedias and documents. When Roslavets died at age 63 he was buried without a headstone."

Now, as for Feinberg, try these few pieces: 









Quote: "Samuil Feinberg (1890-1962) was a major Russian pianist-composer in the early 20th-century. He was an acclaimed virtuoso with an eclectic repertoire and an esteemed teacher at the Moscow Conservatory. Today, he is mostly remembered for his Bach transcriptions and various recordings. However, his compositional output is substantial and his piano works, despite influences from Scriabin, are original, intense, and extremely virtuosic. Unlike Scriabin, he preferred a sound world of angst and pessimism. By 1934, Feinberg ceased playing his darker works in public. He also stopped composing in his early style and instead created simpler pieces according to Socialist Realism."

And now for good measure, try some Tibbs:


----------



## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

Thanks for posting those links. Enjoyed both the Roslavets and the Feinberg, especially the Feinberg. Not sure what to make of the Tibbs. The performer sure played it with conviction though.


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Ya, no kidding. Not everyone likes Tibbs, and I don't blame them. It depends really, sometimes he just doesn't seem all that artistic. At least he isn't a super-minimalist like Simon Glass though (I really, really detest Glass).

Feinberg's Berceuse really is one of the most gorgeous contemporary pieces. Not to mention it packs a lot of compositional wisdom into not very much music at all.


----------



## saladino (Oct 10, 2009)

Unless modern music is embraced equally as music by dead composers classical music will be a dying art form honestly.

I definitely love the classics (Beethoven is my favorite.)

Schnittke is amazing by the way - one of my favorite composers of all time - listen to the piano concerto and piano quintet (and definitely the cello sonatas). Shostakovich and him are my two toss-ups for possible greatest composers of the 20th century. Then again we must not discount John Cage's work.

Another great one who is alive is Frederic Rzewski - amazing powerful piano music - his variations on "The People United Will Never be Defeated"

Composers must live on as a vital part of the culture - they will have to reclaim some territory in modern times. Check out my own music if you are interested:

www.myspace.com/adamvincentclay


----------



## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

After hearing Britten's _Curlew River_ (nearly aleatoric, certainly hypnotic) and some of Boulez and Erkki-Sven Tuur, I've come to realize how much of my own composing is starting to be influenced by such ideas. I started writing a piano sonata last week, and now I take another look at it it's really strange to note all of the experimental elements in it (clusters in the bass, meandering harmonies in the right hand--I actually played random notes and wrote them down to make the melody, which is actually really fun... and it works).

Anyway, yes, I love contemporary/experimental music when it's done really well.


----------



## Joaf (Oct 22, 2009)

Generally speaking, no. I bought a Varese album but couldn't locate the "merit" in it. The same can be said for practically all 12-tone music I've heard. I have more time for the minimalists - John Adams in particular.

Still, I prefer more traditional music.

One modern composer I've just come across who does impress me is Graeme Koehne. I bought an album that contains _Inflight Entertainment_, _Powerhouse_, and _Elevator Music_, and it really blew me away.


----------

