# Magic Flute - Unfair on mothers?



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I watched a video version of die zauberflote with my wife a few days ago but had to switch off half way as she felt it was unfair on mothers!

how to answer that one?


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

I think it is a fair caricature of some mothers.

Is Le Nozze di Figaro unfair to people in positions of power?


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Well, in the Ingmar Bergman film, Papagena was clearly a going-to-be-mother, and no doubt a pretty darn good one.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Posie said:


> I think it is a fair caricature of some mothers.
> 
> *Is Le Nozze di Figaro unfair to people in positions of power?*


*
*
Well the powers that be at the time of Le Nozze's composition sure thought so! Rather brave of Mozart to set Da Ponte's swipe at nobility to music.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I think we're way too sensitive................


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

stomanek said:


> I watched a video version of die zauberflote with my wife a few days ago but had to switch off half way as she felt it was unfair on mothers!
> 
> how to answer that one?


I'd say that there isn't much of an answer to that; the opera is unreasonable to women, including mothers. Sarastro says that Pamina needs to be guided by a man, not allowing for the possibility of a different woman (or even Pamina herself having agency). Papageno is also a ridiculous character, who is after a wife... without regards to who that person is.

Then, on a different offensive front, we have Monostatos, the other villain of the piece.

It is a sexist, racist piece of work. This, unfortunately, does not make it stand out that much in the world of classic opera (or other art forms from the same time periods for that matter). I truly believe that this can be a significant impediment to enjoying opera for some people. I know I am very careful about operas I recommend others see.

Sometimes understanding and discussing the offensiveness can provide enough distance to enjoy the other merits of the work (such as the delightful music). Sometimes a production will have a different spin or de-emphasize some of the more problematic parts.

Kenneth Branagh's 2006 English-language adaptation was an attempt to remove some of the sexist and racist implications of the text... but I don't believe they were entirely successful.

These methods will certainly not work for everybody or for every opera; if someone is offended by something turning it off (or leaving) is a reasonable option.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Now that we are enlightened enough to realize that each of us can be a member of at least one minority group, even if we are the only member of the group, we should all have no difficulty finding some great work of art to be offended by.

And now that we have reached this stage of progress, the next step is to enact legislation requiring the labeling of all works of art with the specific minorities they are likely to offend and their degree of offensiveness. This will ensure that impressionable adults are not inadvertantly exposed to materials with which they are mentally and emotionally unprepared to cope.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Heavens, if someone's offended!!!!!!!

Destroy, Destroy

:lol:


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> And now that we have reached this stage of progress, the next step is to enact legislation requiring the labeling of all works of art with the specific minorities they are likely to offend and their degree of offensiveness. This will ensure that impressionable adults are not inadvertantly exposed to materials with which they are mentally and emotionally unprepared to cope.


... and to insist that they are sold in plain wrappers, that they cannot be played indoors, that there is a version for those with nut allergies etc etc


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

We have been here before have we not? Telling the people what they may or may not read or see? Artists being banned from working in their own countries and seeking political and artistic freedom elsewhere? it all sounds too familiar...

Has political correctness gone mad? What with the thread on the Mikado being racist, and now this.... it beggars belief!

As for Shakespeare being "Cleaned up" by Sir Kenneth.... well that been done before as well 
remember "Bowdlerise"? just google it if you don't already know.

I think that it is time for me to leave this forum.
There are too many disturbances, strange threads and well.....enough!

I take my leave of TC.
Bye


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

^^^^ that would be a terrible loss, Pip


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

stomanek said:


> I watched a video version of die zauberflote with my wife a few days ago but had to switch off half way as she felt it was unfair on mothers!
> 
> how to answer that one?


Sit down and watch Il Trovatore or Elektra. After Azucena and Klytamnetsra, maybe the Queen of the Night won't seem so bad.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The libretto of the Magic Flute contains elements that are misogynist and racist. But as it is complete nonsense anyway I don't take it at all seriously. Just enjoy Mozart's sublime music.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The libretto of the Magic Flute contains elements that are misogynist and racist. But as it is complete nonsense anyway I don't take it at all seriously. Just enjoy Mozart's sublime music.


I don't really see Magic Flute as racist or misogynist honestly. Most of it deals with Freemasonry and a celebration of humanity to conquer over forces of chaos in society...

But myself being too naive doesn't see otherwise.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

I think she could win Mother of the Year compared to say....Donizetti's _Lucrezia Borgia._


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

Even though this is a light subject, we have to remember, "I'm not offended, therefore it is not offensive." is NOT a good argument.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

"We" also might need to remember that "I'm offended, therefore it is offensive," is no better of an argument.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> "We" also might need to remember that "I'm offended, therefore it is offensive," is no better of an argument.


No one's ever compelled to do homage to the suzerain thought police- however much they may Jedi-mind-trick into getting one to think otherwise._ ;D_


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> "We" also might need to remember that "I'm offended, therefore it is offensive," is no better of an argument.


I say "we" because I am not offended either. This reminds me of the movie scene in Father of the Bride.

Grocery Manager: "Sir, why don't we calm down?"

George Banks: "I'll tell you why *we* don't calm down. *I'm* the only one who's upset, and it takes *two* of us for a *we* to calm down!


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> "We" also might need to remember that "I'm offended, therefore it is offensive," is no better of an argument.


"I'm offended therefore it is offensive to me" is perfectly reasonable; that is more or less how this thread _started_. It is not reported that the OP's wife said "no one should watch this" or "this should be banned." Hyperbole of the sort has come up in this thread but it has all been sarcastic.

"I'm not offended, therefore you should not be offended" is a poor answer to the OP. I don't think anyone in this thread - myself included - has given a reasonable answer to the OP.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> I don't think anyone in this thread - myself included - has given a reasonable answer to the OP.


I worded my first answer the way I did because motherhood is a position of power. As we move closer toward gender equality, we are also moving away from the idea that motherhood is sacred and no mother's methods should be questioned. I know my mother would find the Queen of the Night offensive, but then again, she was abusive and is controlling to this day.

I would say to the OP's wife, "If you are nothing like this character, why would you find it offensive?"

As far as general bigotry goes, I put The Magic Flute in the "fair for its time" category.


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## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

Whatever cultural prejudices there may be in The Magic Flute, Mozart moderates and tempers them, surreptitiously (I suspect Mozart himself was explicitly aware of his subversion of prevailing morality), with noble and sublime music given to all characters equally. Actually, the libretto itself is littered with references to equality of all human beings and the divinity of human love -- these are themes which recur in Mozart's operas, both literally and musically. 

"The Magic Flute as offensive to mothers" is a blindered and shallow perception.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

"I'm offended therefore it is offensive to me" is perfectly reasonable; that is more or less how this thread started. It is not reported that the OP's wife said "no one should watch this" or "this should be banned." Hyperbole of the sort has come up in this thread but it has all been sarcastic.

"I'm not offended, therefore you should not be offended" is a poor answer to the OP. I don't think anyone in this thread - myself included - has given a reasonable answer to the OP.

Mozart and da Ponte invented a character (the Queen of the Night) who appears to be manipulative and perhaps even abusive. Does she then represent the whole of Womanhood? I wouldn't even say that she represents the whole of Woman as represented in the Magic Flute.

François Boucher painted this magnificent portrait of the mistress of King Louis XV:



Does this mean that Boucher saw women as nothing more than sexual beings to be valued solely for their appearance?

Quite honestly I far prefer the work of art that pushes my buttons: the audacious and even outrageous work that doesn't kowtow to everything upright, proper... and ultimately lifeless.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Picasso did very well with women too:


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I think I need to explain to my wife why Sarastro thinks he has the right to prevent Pamina from returning to her mother.

and what is the source of Queen of Night's anger/desire to kill Sarastro

pure evil?

must be more to it than that.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Wikipedia, a fount of rational knowledge of which Sarastro himself would no doubt approve, provides the following explanation:

_The Magic Flute is noted for its prominent Masonic elements. Schikaneder and Mozart were Masons and lodge brothers, as was Ignaz Alberti, engraver and printer of the first libretto.[10] The opera is also influenced by Enlightenment philosophy, and can be regarded as an allegory advocating enlightened absolutism. The Queen of the Night represents a dangerous form of obscurantism or, according to some, the anti-Masonic Roman Catholic Empress Maria Theresa,[11] or, according to others, the contemporary Roman Catholic Church itself,[12] which was also strongly anti-Masonic[12] (see Papal ban of Freemasonry). Her antagonist Sarastro symbolises the enlightened sovereign who rules according to principles based on reason, wisdom, and nature. The story itself portrays the education of mankind, progressing from chaos (the serpent) through religious superstition (the Queen and Ladies) to rationalistic enlightenment (Sarastro and Priests), by means of trial (Tamino) and error (Papageno), ultimately to make "the Earth a heavenly kingdom, and mortals like the gods" ("Dann ist die Erd' ein Himmelreich, und Sterbliche den Göttern gleich"); this couplet is sung in the finales to both acts._

Hopefully, this information will put your wife's mind at ease, unless of course she is a Roman Catholic or an Austrian Empress.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> Wikipedia, a fount of rational knowledge of which Sarastro himself would no doubt approve, provides the following explanation:
> 
> _The Magic Flute is noted for its prominent Masonic elements. Schikaneder and Mozart were Masons and lodge brothers, as was Ignaz Alberti, engraver and printer of the first libretto.[10] The opera is also influenced by Enlightenment philosophy, and can be regarded as an allegory advocating enlightened absolutism. The Queen of the Night represents a dangerous form of obscurantism or, according to some, the anti-Masonic Roman Catholic Empress Maria Theresa,[11] or, according to others, the contemporary Roman Catholic Church itself,[12] which was also strongly anti-Masonic[12] (see Papal ban of Freemasonry). Her antagonist Sarastro symbolises the enlightened sovereign who rules according to principles based on reason, wisdom, and nature. The story itself portrays the education of mankind, progressing from chaos (the serpent) through religious superstition (the Queen and Ladies) to rationalistic enlightenment (Sarastro and Priests), by means of trial (Tamino) and error (Papageno), ultimately to make "the Earth a heavenly kingdom, and mortals like the gods" ("Dann ist die Erd' ein Himmelreich, und Sterbliche den Göttern gleich"); this couplet is sung in the finales to both acts._
> 
> Hopefully, this information will put your wife's mind at ease, unless of course she is a Roman Catholic or an Austrian Empress.


As I said, the libretto's nonsense! Unless perhaps you're a Mason?


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

I find The Magic Flute much more unfair to bird-men.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I took two female friends who are inexperienced in opera to see this piece at the Royal Opera House last night and I was a little bit worried about how they would deal with the misogyny. However they thought it was so laughable and stupid, so it did not cause any problems and loved the opera as a whole.


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