# Thoughts on Franz Scmhidt



## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Shifting some attention away from Uncle Anton (which has recently resulted in some... heated debates), I'd like to hear your thoughts on the relatively overlooked Franz Schmidt (1874 - 1939). If you are unaware of his work, I suggest listening to his 4th symphony which I find a very beautiful and engaging work, and report back. 

Some interesting facts:
- took counterpoint classes with Bruckner
- played cello under Mahler for a while
- Godowsky called him one of the greatest living pianists

Some topics for discussion:

1) Where does Schmidt fit among the other Austro-Germanic giants from Wagner to Mahler and including Bruckner, Strauss, Schoenberg. Any formal/theoretical insights from those so inclined would be interesting. 

2) overlooked but vital musical force who has something to say to us today, or 2nd/3rd tier curio?


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Franz Schmidt is my favorite composer. I love his writing - it is so well done, so musical and has great integrity. I first came across him almost 50 years ago when Zubin Mehta's recording of the 4th symphony was released. It was a revelation; I began seeking out and collecting scores, books, and recordings - but back then there was little of his music on LP. Then along came the cd era and from Bratislava a complete set of symphonies and suddenly we were awash with his music, There are so many recordings of Das Buch mit sieben Siegeln. He didn't write all that much, but fortunately virtually all of it is available on CD, except for a couple of pieces of juvenilia.

I've traveled the world going to live performances of the music, and have heard eight live performances of the 4th (oh how I love that music). I heard a Das Buch in Cleveland that was overwhelming. Dallas is doing it next month and I hope to get there for it.

At one time I had hopes that Schmidt would be the new Mahler - that his time had finally come. Never happened and never will, sad to say. Since Yakov Kreizberg died no in the US is doing the symphonies anymore. I doubt either opera will get staged any time soon (although a modern recording of Fredigundis is surely overdue). I was a member of the Franz Schmidt Gesellschaft in Vienna for many years, but they closed up a couple of years ago, having fulfilled their mission. I realize that his music isn't for everyone - it takes real ears to understand and appreciate. It will never be performed widely; all of it is difficult in the extreme for performers. The 2nd symphony is considered the most difficult work in the entire orchestral repertoire! But it sure is a pleasure to listen too.

I do need to correct one thing: he was supposed to study with Bruckner, but Anton died shortly before that was supposed to start. He not only played under Mahler, but Mahler insisted on Schmidt being principal cello when he was conducting. Add to that being a virtuoso pianist will an infallible memory and you have one extraordinary musician who unfortunately made a stupid political decision late in life that likely doomed his music for a long time.

Every time I get to Vienna, I always make a point of stopping by the Zentral Friedhof (Central Cemetery) and place flowers on his gravesite.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I like his works a lot and would willingly give him a fairly prominent place among early 20th century romantics. Broadly speaking as regards how his music comes across to me, I would place him kind of halfway between the lyricism of Richard Strauss and the discipline of Max Reger but without particularly owing anything to either.


----------



## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

A great composer, undoubtedly, much of his music has that hyper-romantic feel to it that I find so irresistible, e.g. the famous Intermezzo from Notre Dame, the symphonies 1 and 2 (particularly the 2nd, which, to my ears it's like a cross between the Bruckner grandeur and the Strauss voluptuousness), the Husar Variations. Some works have a special touch, I don't know how to express that, actually. It shares a bit of Reger but in a more expressive way, more felt and introspective, always keeping expert counterpoint and musical craftsmanship.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Franz Schmidt? Won't be confused for a minimalist any time soon.

I'm a fan of Järvi's readings of the symphonies.


----------



## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

I love the works Schmidt created for Paul Wittgenstein - brother of the philosopher - who lost an arm in WW1. The chamber works are lovely but the Piano Concerto is a particular favourite of mine. I do wish some of the whizz-kids would give Rach a rest and take up the Schmidt instead. It's an absolute gem.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Tallisman said:


> Shifting some attention away from Uncle Anton (which has recently resulted in some... heated debates), I'd like to hear your thoughts on the relatively overlooked Franz Schmidt (1874 - 1939). If you are unaware of his work, I suggest listening to his 4th symphony which I find a very beautiful and engaging work, and report back.
> 
> Some interesting facts:
> - took counterpoint classes with Bruckner
> ...


Does this mean Schmidt could play Godowsky?  If so I have gained some serious respect for him. I've never heard his music but I have been meaning to check out The Book of Seven Seals and his later symphonies. I am fascinated with this overripe late Romantic stuff well into the 20th century. Would it be fair to describe his music as Brucknerian, or is it something else entirely?


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I've only heard the 4th Symphony, but I certainly liked what I've heard, even though I did think it was a bit too bloated and thickly-orchestrated. The Adagio is certainly special. I've been meaning to check out a few more of his works soon, and this thread reminded me of that.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Leopold Godowsky was being interviewed and the question came up: "Who are the greatest living pianists?" His answer was, "The other is Franz Schmidt", implying himself and Schmidt were the two best. We don't really know - there are no extant recordings of Schmidt's playing, and he abandoned a career as a concert pianist thanks to a snotty comment from his teacher, the famous Theodore Leschetizky.

Is the music Brucknerian - yes and no. An early biography was titled "Franz Schmidt, a Master After Bruckner and Brahms". His symphonies are much more concise than Bruckner, and are extremely advanced in harmony and counterpoint. The finale of the 2nd builds to an enormous brass chorale similar to Bruckner, but would never be mistaken for it. Schmidt's orchestral coloring is quite distinctive - any great composer has his own style. Schmidt follows Mahler in some ways: even though he uses large orchestral forces (with minimal percussion) he uses instruments sparingly achieving an almost chamber-like quality.

His music doesn't work as background music - like Bruckner it demands your complete attention. If you want to try it out I suppose the best place is where most of us started: the 4th symphony. There are many fine recordings available, but if you can find Mehta with the Vienna Philharmonic you won't be disappointed. Then A major Quintet is quite beguiling. It's a long, beautiful work and why it isn't better known is one of those things I'll never understand. If those click - and it may take more than one listen - then on to the 3rd symphony. The Chicago reading of the 2nd is just stunning in the virtuosity. Das Buch is an extraordinary work that covers every compositional style from plainchant up through dodecophany. You live in the deep south? How close to Dallas? They're doing it in a month - the work is quite impressive on record, but hearing it live is just overwhelming. Be warned though, this is deeply religious music written by a composer who was a believer. Nothing trite in it. It's amazing to me how many recordings this once unknown work there are. You can't go wrong with Harnoncourt, Welser-Most, Stein, Luisi or Zagrosek. Skip the Mitropolous - for completists.


----------



## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Time to give my collection a fresh listen.
Definitely one of the most interesting late romantics.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> Leopold Godowsky was being interviewed and the question came up: "Who are the greatest living pianists?" His answer was, "The other is Franz Schmidt", implying himself and Schmidt were the two best. We don't really know - there are no extant recordings of Schmidt's playing, and he abandoned a career as a concert pianist thanks to a snotty comment from his teacher, the famous Theodore Leschetizky.
> 
> Is the music Brucknerian - yes and no. An early biography was titled "Franz Schmidt, a Master After Bruckner and Brahms". His symphonies are much more concise than Bruckner, and are extremely advanced in harmony and counterpoint. The finale of the 2nd builds to an enormous brass chorale similar to Bruckner, but would never be mistaken for it. Schmidt's orchestral coloring is quite distinctive - any great composer has his own style. Schmidt follows Mahler in some ways: even though he uses large orchestral forces (with minimal percussion) he uses instruments sparingly achieving an almost chamber-like quality.
> 
> His music doesn't work as background music - like Bruckner it demands your complete attention. If you want to try it out I suppose the best place is where most of us started: the 4th symphony. There are many fine recordings available, but if you can find Mehta with the Vienna Philharmonic you won't be disappointed. Then A major Quintet is quite beguiling. It's a long, beautiful work and why it isn't better known is one of those things I'll never understand. If those click - and it may take more than one listen - then on to the 3rd symphony. The Chicago reading of the 2nd is just stunning in the virtuosity. Das Buch is an extraordinary work that covers every compositional style from plainchant up through dodecophany. You live in the deep south? How close to Dallas? They're doing it in a month - the work is quite impressive on record, but hearing it live is just overwhelming. Be warned though, this is deeply religious music written by a composer who was a believer. Nothing trite in it. It's amazing to me how many recordings this once unknown work there are. You can't go wrong with Harnoncourt, Welser-Most, Stein, Luisi or Zagrosek. Skip the Mitropolous - for completists.


I live in Georgia, but a good friend of mine just moved to Dallas, TX. Hmm, that might be a good excuse to go visit. I'll check it out first, if I'm thoroughly impressed, or interest piqued, then I'll have to consider it. Thanks for the tip, and thanks for the thorough response, seriously!


----------



## reinmar von zweter (Feb 19, 2020)

My personal Schmidt desert-island rendition is this one.
Very rare to find, but really idiomatic and no-frills with Ludovit Rajter.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Well that set was the first complete one, but ugh! There's not one movement that isn't ruined because of sloppy, poor playing. Intonation, rhythm, etc. The conducting is quite slack and uneventful. I think the 4th comes off best but that's no doubt because it's the most familiar. The recorded sound is fine. The set was sure welcome when it came out, but the scrappy playing and the availability of other sets puts this in the shade. Playing time on each disk is quite niggardly, too. Some of the original Chandos recordings had couplings, but by Richard Strauss, but in the re-released box set, again four disks with no coupling. The Naxos series is terrific. Fine playing, excellent conducting, sound is great and the couplings are all Schmidt. I will give the Bratislava set one advantage over the others, including Fabio Luisi's set: the orchestral sound is likely as close to what Schmidt imagined than the others. He wrote with the burnished sound of the Vienna Philharmonic in mind, not the high glitz Chicago or Detroit, or even the fine Malmo group.

And I just got a release from the Dallas Symphony - they're doing the 4th next year, April 1,2,3 in 2021!!! Das Buch this year, then the 4th. This looks promising.


----------



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> And I just got a release from the Dallas Symphony - they're doing the 4th next year, April 1,2,3 in 2021!!! Das Buch this year, then the 4th. This looks promising.


That's cool! I want Schmidt's works to start being performed up here in New York state!


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The works I know are attractive and worthwhile but I do often wonder with Schmidt if his music wouldn't have been improved by some serious editing, even at the cost of jettisoning some good ideas and attractive passages.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

SONNET CLV said:


> Franz Schmidt? Won't be confused for a minimalist any time soon.
> 
> I'm a fan of Järvi's readings of the symphonies.
> 
> View attachment 131343


I have the Naxos recordings but that Jarvi set is the best for me. The performances are excellent and sound just exemplary. That's the set in the car at the moment (along with Järvi's Fibich).I also have Rajter's recordings but the ensemble playing / intonation is wretched at times. Plenty of enthusiasm though.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Less heard is his Fantasy for Piano and Orchestra. The high point for me starts at 4:00 derived from his Notre Dame.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

He was no slouch at chamber works either - the two clarinet quintets, the two string quartets and the piano quintet for piano are all worth a listen. There is some really good organ music as well. I hope one day to see a recording of his second opera, _Fredigundis_, the only real glaring gap in Schmidt's recorded output.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

elgars ghost said:


> I hope one day to see a recording of his second opera, _Fredigundis_, the only real glaring gap in Schmidt's recorded output.


Well, there is one. I bought the LPs a long time ago - then transfered them to CD. What we need is a_* legal *_recording. The LPs were made from bootleg tapes, like the first couple of LPs for Notre Dame. The Fredigundis vocal score is online. There is some really beautiful music in it, but dramatically it's easy to see why it didn't earn a place in the repertoire. The ending is very haunting. The German label Capriccio every now and then comes out with a totally unexpected opera and I hope they'll find a way to bring it out. Or CPO.

I've looked over Schmidt's last work, "Deutche Auferstehen" which is controversial in the extreme and will never get performed or recorded, unless some Neo-Nazi group funds it. He didn't get a lot done with with it, and it was completed by others. That's the only music by Schmidt I've never heard. And it's probably best to let it be.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

^
^

Yes, I have heard of the _Fredigundis_ bootleg. I should really have said a _new_ recording. Like you I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Is there anything you wished Schmidt could have composed but didn't?


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Now here's something really exciting:

http://www.loganartsmanagement.com/jonathan-berman---the-franz-schmidt-project.html

I'm not sure we really need another set of the symphonies - all of them have been recorded by first-class ensembles, but anything to keep the composer's name in front of people has to be a good thing.


----------



## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> Would it be fair to describe his music as Brucknerian, or is it something else entirely?


Perhaps, but he's also got similarities with Strauss and sometimes Mahler


----------



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Tallisman said:


> Perhaps, but he's also got similarities with Strauss and sometimes Mahler


Maybe someone here already mentioned it, but _Das Buch_ also has a strong resemblance to Handel's _Messiah_, not just because it is an oratorio, but also in the music style itself.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

adriesba said:


> Maybe someone here already mentioned it, but _Das Buch_ also has a strong resemblance to Handel's _Messiah_, not just because it is an oratorio, but also in the music style itself.


They also both have a Hallelujah Chorus, in Schmidt's case it's the "Hungarian Hallelujah". But I don't see how you can conflate their styles at all. Schmidt's is clearly the work of a 20th c composer - use uses 12-tone writing in a staggeringly complex fugue that Handel couldn't have imagined. It's scored for a full romantic orchestra and a major part for organ. Handel's is clearly the work of a Baroque composer who used a small orchestra of strings, and a few brass or winds here and there.


----------



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Well, I'm no expert, but I just thought a lot of melodies sounded somewhat Baroque-like. I'm not talking about orchestration which is obviously largely different. This article describes the work as "neo-Bachian": https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/aug/29/about-franz-schmidt-composer-hitler. 
So, I'm guessing there is a resemblance at least somewhat, even if it is small. Perhaps it resembles Bach more, but I wouldn't know that much since I rarely listen to anything by Bach. Some of the vocal writing seemed to be in a polyphonic style similar to the way Baroque composers wrote choral parts. Again, I'm no music expert so maybe I'm only seeing vague similarities.


----------



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Also, what is a "Hungarian Hallelujah"?


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

That's the name that was given to the Hallelujah chorus near the end of Das Buch. If there were no words, it's style in unmistakably in the Hungarian/Gypsy idiom, which Schmidt used in a lot of his works. I don't know who first called it that, but it sure is appropriate. It's true that Schmidt also has baroque leanings - especially in his use of rhythm such as the opening of the First Symphony. And if by baroque people mean ornate and decorative, Schmidt does that too.


----------



## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

There are some fine tributes to Franz Schmidt on this thread! I would like to add mention of the great American pianist Leon Fleisher, for performing and recording Schmidt's Piano Concerto and Piano Quintet in G major. After incurring right arm injury Fleisher revived these and other composers' works for left-hand piano (e.g. Korngold's concerto), with top-level colleagues. Having great artists play Schmidt has helped to raise him from "neglected" status.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

If you can find the superb Capriccio recording of Schmidt's opera "Notre Dame" based on the famous novel by Victor Hugo , don't pass up the opportunity . It's an opera which deserves to be better known, and would certainly deserve a production by the Met and other leading opera houses . 
The intermezzo was one of the few Schmidt works to be performed with nay regularity until recent years , and Karajan made a wonderful recording of it . 
The recording features Gwyneth Jones as the Gypsy girl Esmeralda, James King , and the late, great Kurt Moll and the hunchback Quasimodo , with Christof Perick conducting the Berlin RSO .


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I love the music in Notre Dame - it's amazing. It is one of those works that Erich Leinsdorf could have, should have written a symphonic suite from. So much beauty in it. Dramatically though, it's a tough sell. Schmidt made the mistake in both operas of having an amateur hack write the libretto. There are some silly things in the plot - although the same can be said of many other operas, some which are performed regularly. It might be something for a good university opera dept to put on, or a summer festival, but the Met couldn't take the financial risk. Mahler didn't want to mount it and he probably had good reasons. But every now and then it is put on in Europe in smaller opera houses; it would be nice to see it just once. BTW - the orchestral parts are, like most everything Schmidt wrote, fiendishly difficult to play.


----------



## erki (Feb 17, 2020)

FRANZ SCHMIDT: THE STRING QUARTETS are the ones I have on CD and I like them a lot.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

^
^

Same here.


----------

