# Cuing sections



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Okay, time for this week's How Do Orchestras Work? question:

You see the more demonstrative conductors swooping around on the podium and making emphatically vague gestures that seem to say "This may be a downbeat" and "Okay, you guys can come in sort of now."

The downbeat thing I guess orchestras get used to. But what constitutes the general rule -- if there is one -- about when cues should be given? Is it how long since a section last played? How rhythmically complicated the piece is? And what is the general rule about when? Does the actual entrance get cued? Or is it more like "Here's your measure." or "Your measure is coming up next"? And is it mostly in the eyes? Or do gestures play a part?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

There's a wide range of how conductors cue. There are some showboaters who think they need to cue every single entrance - they do it to show off about how well they know the music. They're miserable to play with. The opposite are those who never cue - they expect the musicians to know the music so well that cues are unnecessary. That can be scary, too. Watch Karajan who conducted with his eyes shut - no eye contact at all. Very, very little cueing.


But in reality cues should be given in particularly treacherous places where entrances are tricky. The best conductor cues are those that don't raise your anxiety. Often, cues are really the conductor acting out how he/she wants the passage to be played - loud, softly, aggressive, playful and such.

I also like when conductors use the eyes to communicate entrances rather than pointing. A raise of the eyebrows or even mouth motion combined with the eyes can be very comforting to players. Some of the pros I've played with just flick the baton in the general direction of the entrant, others use the left hand. So many varieties.

One conductor I play with once played the Brahms 4th under Charles Munch. He was called at the last minute to play the first bassoon part on a symphony he had never played before. He told Munch he was nervous, but the legendary maestro said don't worry - we'll get through it together. And Munch was constantly looking at the bassoon, eyes and mouth and left hand indicating each entrance and exit. That's the kind of cueing that's really impressive.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> One conductor I play with once played the Brahms 4th under Charles Munch. He was called at the last minute to play the first bassoon part on a symphony he had never played before. He told Munch he was nervous, but the legendary maestro said don't worry - we'll get through it together. And Munch was constantly looking at the bassoon, eyes and mouth and left hand indicating each entrance and exit. That's the kind of cueing that's really impressive.


For the technique and especially the spirit of Munch's actions, that is a wonderful story!


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

My understanding is, most orchestras have rehearsed a piece before the performance enough times that they rarely need to look at the conductor, except for cues on when to *start*, and when to *stop*.

And of course sight reading. Musicians know where they are from the score.

So... showboating is a big part of it.

I always get a chuckle when I hear some orchestra "was conducted from the piano." Like, when did the pianist have time to pick up the stick?


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

In general, the conductor and orchestral have _REHEARSED_ the piece, and perhaps discussed tempos, rubatos, and yes, entrances and even cut-offs.

How the conductors cues on the night of the performance is dictated largely on the need. Depending on the piece being played, it's possible that almost no cues will be needed, and the conductor can concentrate more on interpretation and nuance. If the orchestra has been having places in the score where they struggle with the entrances, a good conductor will try (and usually succeed) in giving obvious cues.

My favorite personal conductor story was when I was playing in the pit for a production of *Bernstein*'s *West Side Story*, a particularly wickedly difficult show for the musicians to play. I played treble strings and some lower strings on keyboard. Our pianist Bonnie was absolutely extraordinary.

Our conductor was not. I'd worked with him many times before, with me either as a musician, or the musical director, or both. He'd always been adequate for all the stage musicals previously, and all the musicians quite liked him. But this score was beyond his skill level. We all sounded like rank amateurs, and he was let go after a Tuesday night dress rehearsal before the Friday night opening. On Wednesday night the Music Director took his place and informed us that our conductor had been let go, and that HE would be conducting the Wednesday night rehearsal, with another conductor coming in permanently on Thursday night.

He then stood still, checked us all out for a time, raised his arms and truly conducted like a pro. We sounded like a completely different orchestra, a polished experiences professional orchestra. He not only knew the score, but knew what was needed from him to get us to be awesome sounding.

So, let's say that a guest conductor, or sub conductor has been called in for a performance . . . . then you're talking some generic and clear conducting, as he/she may not know the skill level of the players, or of the orchestra as a whole.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)




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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

Sir Adrian Boult had a different approach with minimal gestures and got the job done superbly.
Truly admirable.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Not really what you are asking but....

What purpose do cues serve? Sometimes they really aren't that important, but here are some reasons for cues:

1. The way the cue is given can actually indicate something in the way of style, dynamics, or expression from the conductor to the performer.
2. The cue can give confidence to the musician that they have counted correctly and are in the right place. This may sound silly unless you've been in an orchestra during a complex part and you are about 80% confident that you are about to make your entrance at the right time! It's stressful!
3. It actually can communicate to the audience where they should focus their listening attention.

Am I missing others? There's probably more reasons but I can't think of them right now. Clearly conductor-less ensembles have existed without them.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

And then there is what the conductor shouldn't do...

"Actually you never eyeball a horn player. That’s one of the real rules. You just don’t. They’re stuntmen. You don’t eyeball stuntmen just before they’re about to go near death. That’s really true. You also never tell a horn player you played beautifully last time just before a concert. You see that look. They look at you and they’re always thinking, I could die now. And you know there’s something else behind the eyes. That’s really a truth. And so you have to let them do their very difficult thing without too much disturbing." - Simon Rattle


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> ...
> 
> One conductor I play with once played the Brahms 4th under Charles Munch. He was called at the last minute to play the first bassoon part on a symphony he had never played before. He told Munch he was nervous, but the legendary maestro said don't worry - we'll get through it together. And Munch was constantly looking at the bassoon, eyes and mouth and left hand indicating each entrance and exit. That's the kind of cueing that's really impressive.





Roger Knox said:


> For the technique and especially the spirit of Munch's actions, that is a wonderful story!


I agree with Roger Knox concerning mbhaub's great post. I wish I had a wonderful story of my own to relate on this topic, but having never been a professional orchestra musician the only anecdote I could relate involving a conductor and a cue happened aboard a certain train, that had a car which housed a pool table. But that's a story better fit for a way different Forum than this one. And way different sorts of readers, I'm certain.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

i could also tell many stories of "conductors" who were in way over their heads but unchecked because of their monstrous egos who cue people quite firmly in the wrong place. One of the most shameful, embarrassing concerts I ever played was with a young ego-maniac whose parents paid the musicians for two rehearsals and a concert. The kid-conductor opened with Chabrier's Espana. There's a section where the strings are murmuring a pattern and then the trombones blast out the theme. The kid cued it THREE bars early, no one knew where we were. It was a godawful mess and never recovered. Or another inept maestro who cued a cymbal player in the finale of Prokofiev's 7th. The player sat there. The conductor said, "again for the cymbal player who can't count!" Again he cued the cymbal player who sat there. Maestro screamed "where's the God **** cymbal?". The player calmly said "there is NO cymbal stroke at that point. And it's not in the score...Martinon added it in his recording which is where you learned the music I guess." If looks could kill. The section leader smoothed things over, added the note to the part and that conductor was never hired again.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Cueing by conductors can have a very positive effect, little or no effect, or a distinctly negative effect, depending upon the ability of the conductor....
When done skillfully, it greatly enhances the flow, the rhythm, the forward momentum of the orchestra's performance. the size, shape, manner of cueing doesn't matter so much; what is crucial is its clarity and accuracy to the musicians...
I think Reiner says it best:
"The best conducting technique is that which achieves the maximum musical result with the minimum effort. The only general rule is to infuse all gestures with precision, clarity, and vitality." - Fritz Reiner

Reiner, and Monteux, were known for a very reserved stick technique, often small, subtle gestures, that were abundantly clear to the orchestra musicians, but may well have been invisible to the audience:
A nod of the head, raising the eyebrows, a nudge of the elbow, shrug of the shoulders, even puffing out a cheek - very reserved signals that were right smack in rhythm....
the important thing is that the orchestra was on extreme alert, and was cognizant and very receptive to these gestures. The great conductors inspire this alertness and concentration. 
When the music is moving along with a good solid pulse, excellent flow, forward motion, accurate cues simply propel it along...players enter with confidence, security, and in proper tempo to keep things moving.
Two of the best conductors I ever played for were Walter Hendl, and Boris Goldovsky [both Reiner students]....at times, if things were going well, they would simply fold up their hands and stop beating with the stick , no conducting....however the ears and eyes were ever alert, ready to jump in at an instant to correct or prevent some mishap. A subtle look, glance, or point to a musician was like a neon sign telling you when to enter. Eye contact was huge, these guys were always looking about at any musician or section that was about to have an important entrance. Eye contact is a major channel of communication between conductor and musician.
A conductor like Bernstein [another Reiner student] was very demonstrative on the podium, lots of wild motions, even histrionics, esp in his earlier years....however, the musicians, by and large, did not mind, because even amongst the wild gesticulations, Lenny was still giving the key signals to the orchestra. They knew a lot of the theatrics were for the audience, but as long as they were getting theirs, they did not mind too much.
Wild theatrics that are irrelevant to the actual music are ignored, or they may be destructive - signalling wrong, or late/early entrances - not in rhythm, or in sync with the music as it progresses....preparatory upbeats given in the wrong tempo are a disaster....so are poorly thought out downbeats....when the stick comes down, pros are going to play!! the conductor had better know what he expects to hear!!
There are conductors who provide no cues, whatever - simply "deadstick" time-beating...this gives the musicians no help, they are strictly on their own....they must fit in as best they can....if the stage and hall are acoustically poor, this invites imprecision and inaccuracy. 
It's true that the conductor is the "traffic cop" - responsible for establishing and maintaining the flow of music - but it is more than that - the conductor must also inspire a concentration, an alertness, a hyper-attentiveness to what is happening, and what is about to happen.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Conducting from the keyboard

How does a pianist "conduct from the keyboard" ?

There are plenty of articles about it out there as well. Just Google "Conducting from the keyboard"


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