# Is there a short Wagner opera?



## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

My only real annoyance at Wagner is that his operas are around 3 hours long, and I was wondering if there was a shorter opera that was worth starting out on?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Dutchman and Rheingold are about 2.5 hours long. 
Tannhauser and Lohengrin 3 to 3.5ish. 
Walkure, Tristan, Siegfried usually around 4. 
Parsifal, Götterdämmerung, and Meistersinger normally 4 to 4.5, but can be as long as 5 on a slow interpretation. 

This is pure running time, no intermissions.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Even a 10 minute Wagner opera would seem like 10 years.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Polednice said:


> Even a 10 minute Wagner opera would seem like 10 years.


That's hyperbole.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Couchie said:


> That's hyperbole.


It was actually litotes.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

Manok said:


> My only real annoyance at Wagner is that his operas are around 3 hours long, and I was wondering if there was a shorter opera that was worth starting out on?


maybe Wagner isn't for you. try Puccini.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

AmericanGesamtkunstwerk said:


> maybe Wagner isn't for you. try Puccini.


i apologize for that. heheh.


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## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

I've never really listned to Wagner because of the length problem, but I thought I'd give him a shot. The Dutchman isn't a ring opera right?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Manok said:


> I've never really listned to Wagner because of the length problem, but I thought I'd give him a shot. The Dutchman isn't a ring opera right?


No.

Listen to them in this order:

- Dutchman
- Tannhauser
- Lohengrin
- The Ring (Rheingold, Walkure, Siegfried, Gotterdammerung)
- Die Meistersinger
- Tristan und Isolde
- Parsifal

This is largely chronological. The first four are the shortest. Meistersinger will give you a nice break between the very heavy Gotterdammerung and Tristan. By the time you get to Tristan and Parsifal, you will be ready for them.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Polednice said:


> It was actually litotes.


I see. I'll just go ahead and preemptively write:

_Last edited by Chi_townPhilly; May-07-2012 at 08:19. _*Reason:*_ unacceptable language._


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I've never really listned to Wagner because of the length problem, but I thought I'd give him a shot. The Dutchman isn't a ring opera right?

I don't get the complaint about length applied solely to Wagner. A good many opera can run 3 hours+: _Manon, Le Nozze di Figaro, Der Rosenkavalier, Pelleas et Melisande, Idomeneo,_ etc... This doesn't even begin to touch on some of Philip Glass' looong operas or Stockhausen's infamous _Licht_, clocking in at 24 hours. A vast majority of operas run at least 2 1/2 hours. The only time that an opera is too long is if the musical material simply cannot engage you for that length of time. Wagner's _Siegfried_ is acknowledged... even by many Wagnerians... as being "too long"... while I cannot imagine wanting to crop anything from _Die Götterdammerung, Parsifal,_ and _Tristan und Isolde_... all of which are actually longer. Richard Strauss' greatest operas, IMO, include _Elektra_ (which is quite brief... yet so emotionally draining that one cannot imagine it longer) and the far more leisurely, _Rosenkavalier_.

Hell! Shakespeare's greatest play, _Hamlet_, can run to nearly 5 hours (uncut) while a stupid football game can surpass _Die Götterdammerung_... so I don't get the problem


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

There are no long Wagner operas. Only short attention spans.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

You may put that as your signature.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Couchie said:


> There are no long Wagner operas. Only short attention spans.


I don't agree with this judgement of many listeners whose tastes & preferences are equally valid to yours, just different.

That is all I will say. I have edited this post heavily.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I see your ADHD kicked in before you made it through StlukesguildOhio's post, but it was about how Wagner's operas are *not* atypically long by opera standards.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Keep it civil please. This is decending to personal insults.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

mamascarlatti said:


> Keep it civil please. This is decending to personal insults.


I removed an offensive word before your post. I will now edit my post even more to make it bland and with no meaning at all.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

AmericanGesamtkunstwerk said:


> maybe Wagner isn't for you. try Puccini.


That's only if you have a very yucky sweet tooth.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Sid James said:


> I will now edit my post even more to make it bland and with no meaning at all.


Like a Brahms quartet?

I was not offended by Sid's post, nothing wrong with a display of passion. I think Sid misinterprets my posts sometimes as I am almost never serious about anything. At any rate I think to be a personal attack there has to be ill will behind it and I don't think Sid or I intend that towards one another.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Seriously, I don't think that you can define the "typical" opera any more than you can define the "typical" symphony. Nor do I think that a work which is "atypical" is necessarily to be seen as a failure. Tolstoy and Dostoevsky and Victor Hugo and certainly Proust pushed the limitations in terms of what was the usual length of a novel. Beethoven, Bruckner, and Mahler certainly challenged the "typical" limitations of length of a symphony. Beethoven's piano sonatas shattered all notions of the typical length and complexity of the piano sonata. Wagner undoubtedly expanded the opera in some ways... the _Ring_ took opera to a new level with the introduction of a series of operas that form a single over-arching narrative... not unlike Proust's _In Search of Lost Time_ or Balzac's _La Comédie humaine_. Wagner also reinvented opera by eliminating the typical structure of arias and duets and trios separated by dialog with the concept of the "through-written" opera. But you can't in any way fairly compare these innovations to an eccentric anomaly like Brian's _Gothic Symphony_. Many of Wagner's ideas were adopted by subsequent operatic composers including Verdi, Puccini, Richard Strauss, Erich Korngold, Debussy, etc... Again, Wagner's operas are in no was excessively long in comparison to a great many other operas.

As to whether 70% of the classical music dislike Wagner... I suspect you may be exaggerating things a wee bit. I certainly doubt that Wagner is grossly unpopular with that portion of the classical music audience who seriously follow opera. I might also suggest that I doubt Wagner is less popular than Schoenberg, Bartok, Xenakis, Philip Glass... indeed the vast majority of living composers... let alone Gluck, Bellini, and Donizetti (whose names rarely show up here)... to say nothing of Perotin, Leonin, Gesualdo, Josquin, etc... I doubt you or anyone else believes that such popularity contests say anything about the merit of the composer.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

That's only if you have a very yucky sweet tooth.

Actually, it's quite possible to love Wagner... and Puccini... and many other composers as well. Perhaps some day Couchie will give it a try.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Forget I said anything. Seriously, I like Beethoven, but if someone said his late string quartets are typical of the genre of his time (or even the whole 19th century), you'd got to be kidding. The reason why Beethoven was so big in first half of 19th century and Wagner was correspondingly big in the second half of that century is because they were so different from other composers of their time. I could go on about this but I won't. I've covered this before & I'm becoming a caricature of myself.

& if one is likely to be misconstrued or misinterpreted online, just say it directly. A lot of humour comes across as arrogant. Not singling anyone out here, just making a general comment. Eg. _I can listen to 5 hour long operas so I'm soooo cool and sophisticated_. Or _I can listen to the noise music genre, it's beautiful to me, the rest of you can get stuffed_. I'm just saying that's what I interpret to be between the lines of remarks that seem to judge listeners who don't go for those sorts of things.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> That's only if you have a very yucky sweet tooth.
> 
> Actually, it's quite possible to love Wagner... and Puccini... and many other composers as well. Perhaps some day Couchie will give it a try.


This was personally insulting. Infraction time.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Sid James said:


> & if one is likely to be misconstrued or misinterpreted online, just say it directly.


Sounds boring. The ambiguity is half the fun. You are as free to interpret my posts as a tongue-in-cheek satire on Wagnerism as you are to take it at face value. I find the way people react interesting. The truth is probably somewhere in-between.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Sorry? what was this thread about? Lol! Ah right.Wagner. 
An act a day keeps the ennui away. Just give yourself some time between acts. Have some wine, a little walk, then come back next day even. its worth it usually If all else fails, try playing it on 45 rpm...


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

couchie said:


> like a brahms quartet?


bam!! Wwaaaaaooooohhh


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I don't agree with this judgement of many listeners whose tastes & preferences are equally valid to yours, just different.
> 
> That is all I will say. I have edited this post heavily.


false. non-wagner supporting tastes are less valid than wagner supporting tastes.

oh i should just stop i'm making it worse.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

ALL Wagner operas are too short


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

A beginner may want to play only a few highlights from one of the operas. There are collections of operas which feature only the highlights. 

This is how I started listening to opera. The two operas by Wagner in the series are Tristan and Isolde and Lohengrin. 

The only Wagner opera I have ever seen live is The Flying Dutchman. 

DVDs with the action may be easier to access than audio only recordings.

Good luck.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Badinerie said:


> Sorry? what was this thread about? Lol! Ah right.Wagner.
> An act a day keeps the ennui away. Just give yourself some time between acts. Have some wine, a little walk, then come back next day even. its worth it usually If all else fails, try playing it on 45 rpm...


Like about one year between acts, have two or three bottles of wine, go for a walk, jump in the river, come back and play it at 78 rpm.


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

Rheingold was my first Wagner opera, and, probably because of it's compartively short running time, the one I would say I'm most familiar with after Die Walkure. Certainly, I found it a good way of approaching his work, and I would say he's my favourite composer. I've never had a huge amount of time for the Dutchman saying that

I also love Puccini FYI


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## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

So I decided to go with the flying dutchman and so far I am enjoying it, at least on some levels, I just don't know if I would ever take the time to listen to longer operas by Wagner, I just don't have that kind of time anymore.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Manok said:


> So I decided to go with the flying dutchman and so far I am enjoying it, at least on some levels, I just don't know if I would ever take the time to listen to longer operas by Wagner, I just don't have that kind of time anymore.


Why not do him by acts? Wagner by acts is better than no Wagner at all.


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## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

Interesting idea. . I may just start doing opera like that in general since I don't have the time to listen to a whole at once unless I've got a 12 hour work day.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Once, Miles davis complained to a juiced up John Coltrane about him soloing for to long. 'Trane said to Miles " I never know how to end a solo." Miles said " Try taking your horn out of your mouth!"


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

Sadly no. They are all interminable.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Couchie said:


> You may put that as your signature.


I did put it as my signature even before I saw this permission post.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Why not do him by acts? Wagner by acts is better than no Wagner at all.


I watched Siegfried Act 3 the other day on DVD and must confess the time dragged. Wagner is so long winded!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Richard Strauss "Friedenstag" Opera in 1 act, so there is a short one.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Richard Strauss "Friedenstag" Opera in 1 act, so there is a short one.


Wrong Richard!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I watched Siegfried Act 3 the other day on DVD and must confess the time dragged. *Wagner is so long winded!*


More accurately, you don't enjoy Wagner enough to stay interested throughout. That isn't his problem.


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## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

I'm glad we now have two Wagner threads addressing basically the exact same premise, and ending up at basically the exact same place...


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Wagner's not the only one to write long operas. Handel, Rossini, Verdi, Strauss, and Glass, among others, could also fill an evening. If you like the work, you'll make the time.

Running Times: Are all operas long?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Richard Strauss "Friedenstag" Opera in 1 act, so there is a short one.


I think not Pugg!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> I think not Pugg!


What was I thinking.....


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

DavidA said:


> I watched Siegfried Act 3 the other day on DVD and must confess the time dragged. Wagner is so long winded!


I am curious, do you ever go to a live performance at an opera house?
In a half decent production even the longest acts seem short to me and certainly the third act of Siegfried, where Wagner brings the skill gained during the writing of Tristan and Meistersinger to the Ring is, for me, magnificent.
Where exactly does it drag for you?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> I think not Pugg!


Who was it that said, "If Richard, then Wagner. If Strauss, then Johann" ?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Who was it that said, "If Richard, then Wagner. If Strauss, then Johann" ?


I'll second the first part.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Morton said:


> I am curious, do you ever go to a live performance at an opera house?
> In a half decent production even the longest acts seem short to me and certainly the third act of Siegfried, where Wagner brings the skill gained during the writing of Tristan and Meistersinger to the Ring is, for me, magnificent.
> Where exactly does it drag for you?


The interminable libretto which takes so long to say anything. I agree much of the music is magnificent but the actual libretto is long winded and frankly not in the same league


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

DavidA said:


> The interminable libretto which takes so long to say anything. I agree much of the music is magnificent but the actual libretto is long winded and frankly not in the same league


Ok, you and I have a different way of looking at this.
I am rather glad that his librettos were undoubtedly on the verbose side as this gave greater opportunity for extra music making.
To be honest, certainly in a live performance, I am not overly interested in exactly what Wotan and Erda or Siegfried and Brunnhilde are actually saying to each other, it is how well they are singing it that matters.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Morton said:


> Ok, you and I have a different way of looking at this.
> I am rather glad that his librettos were undoubtedly on the verbose side as this gave greater opportunity for extra music making.
> To be honest, certainly in a live performance, I am not overly interested in exactly what *Wotan and Erda* or Siegfried and Brunnhilde are actually saying to each other, it is how well they are singing it that matters.


Frankly there is the tremendous build up to the interview with Erda and then what happens is a conversation which I can't make head to tale of!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Manok said:


> My only real annoyance at Wagner is that his operas are around 3 hours long, and I was wondering if there was a shorter opera that was worth starting out on?


Try Mascagni's Cavalleria Rusticana. Very short. Melodramatic. Interesting plot. Great music.


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Frankly there is the tremendous build up to the interview with Erda and then what happens is a conversation which I can't make head to tale of!


I don't think that one is too difficult.
Wotan initially wakes Erda for a bit of advice, there is a bit of re-telling of the plot when Wotan tells Erda about his punishment of Brunnhilde, (but now from Wotan's point of view). 
She is none too pleased with his treatment of her daughter, so the rest of the chat does not go too well.
Wotan says her doesn't really care anymore, he has handed over the future to the Volsung (to the accompaniment of a magnificent new theme) and he tells her to go back to sleep.
The important thing during all this is the quality of the music and the opportunity the scene provides for some dramatic theatre. The last performance I saw of this had Wotan literary digging Erda out of the ground with a spade.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Hell! Shakespeare's greatest play, _Hamlet_, can run to nearly 5 hours (uncut) while a stupid football game can surpass _Die Götterdammerung_... so I don't get the problem




Sorry to bring up a thread from 2012, but it always bugs me when someone dumps on the world of athletics from a music site.

FWIW, I'd much rather watch an NFL football game than a Shakespeare play or Wagner opera.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Bulldog said:


> Sorry to bring up a thread from 2012, but it always bugs me when someone dumps on the world of athletics from a music site.
> 
> FWIW, I'd much rather watch an NFL football game than a Shakespeare play or Wagner opera.


Of the three I'll go with the Wagner opera. I am not a football fan, but would not call the game stupid--brutal maybe, but not stupid.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Morton said:


> I don't think that one is too difficult.
> Wotan initially wakes Erda for a bit of advice, there is a bit of re-telling of the plot when Wotan tells Erda about his punishment of Brunnhilde, (but now from Wotan's point of view).
> She is none too pleased with his treatment of her daughter, so the rest of the chat does not go too well.
> Wotan says her doesn't really care anymore, he has handed over the future to the Volsung (to the accompaniment of a magnificent new theme) and he tells her to go back to sleep.
> The important thing during all this is the quality of the music and the opportunity the scene provides for some dramatic theatre. The last performance I saw of this had Wotan literary digging Erda out of the ground with a spade.


To be fair, this scene, magnificent as it is, has always troubled me a bit. If, as you say, Wotan doesn't really care anymore, why does he bother to wake Erda in the first place?


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

amfortas said:


> To be fair, this scene, magnificent as it is, has always troubled me a bit. If, as you say, Wotan doesn't really care anymore, why does he bother to wake Erda in the first place?


I have always found this scene to be astonishing and incredibly exciting as well, but I agree, it is one of the most cryptic passages in the entire Ring. I don't know if anyone here has read the Oresteia by Aeschylus, but I feel like the Wotan-Erda scene very strongly recalls themes of Greek tragedy and brings to mind particular events from that work. The scene seems to me to be a confrontation, between the rule of law and the older, darker, and more mysterious order of instinct.

It's a confrontation full of anxiety. Wotan is not yet defeated, nor is he intent on affirming his reign. Erda tells him that he is not what he seems, that his pretensions to legal authority are in fact founded on nothing. He concedes that his knowledge amounts to no more than hers, as both essentially recognize that things must come to an end. On the other hand, there is a difference between knowing something and _willing_ it, and will it he does. He wishes to trump the goddess of instinct by showing that he is consciously willing what she can merely predict, and is making Erda bear witness to his gesture, confused as she is. And from his anxiety and weariness he bequeaths the world to Siegfried, the free being who will act for himself.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Faustian said:


> I have always found this scene to be astonishing and incredibly exciting as well, but I agree, it is one of the most cryptic passages in the entire Ring. I don't know if anyone here has read the Oresteia by Aeschylus, but I feel like the Wotan-Erda scene very strongly recalls themes of Greek tragedy and brings to mind particular events from that work. The scene seems to me to be a confrontation, between the rule of law and the older, darker, and more mysterious order of instinct.
> 
> It's a confrontation full of anxiety. Wotan is not yet defeated, nor is he intent on affirming his reign. Rather he wishes to trump the goddess of instinct by showing that he is consciously willing what can can merely predict. Erda tells him that he is not what he seems, that his pretensions to legal authority are in fact founded on nothing. He concedes that his knowledge amounts to no more than hers, as both essentially recognize that things must come to an end. On the other hand, there is a difference between knowing something and _willing_ it, and will it he does. He is making Erda bear witness to his gesture, confused as she is. And from his anxiety and weariness he bequeaths the world to Siegfried, the free being who will act for himself.


While I was puzzling over this matter and gave up to go eat dinner, you came up with this. I can go have dessert now.

:tiphat:


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Manok said:


> My only real annoyance at Wagner is that his operas are around 3 hours long, and I was wondering if there was a shorter opera that was worth starting out on?


You don´t have to listen to the whole opera at once.
You can listen to them one hour at the time.


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

Faustian said:


> I have always found this scene to be astonishing and incredibly exciting as well, but I agree, it is one of the most cryptic passages in the entire Ring. I don't know if anyone here has read the Oresteia by Aeschylus, but I feel like the Wotan-Erda scene very strongly recalls themes of Greek tragedy and brings to mind particular events from that work. The scene seems to me to be a confrontation, between the rule of law and the older, darker, and more mysterious order of instinct.
> 
> It's a confrontation full of anxiety. Wotan is not yet defeated, nor is he intent on affirming his reign. Rather he wishes to trump the goddess of instinct by showing that he is consciously willing what can can merely predict. Erda tells him that he is not what he seems, that his pretensions to legal authority are in fact founded on nothing. He concedes that his knowledge amounts to no more than hers, as both essentially recognize that things must come to an end. On the other hand, there is a difference between knowing something and _willing_ it, and will it he does. He is making Erda bear witness to his gesture, confused as she is. And from his anxiety and weariness he bequeaths the world to Siegfried, the free being who will act for himself.


My post was a little tongue in cheek, largely I fear, because I could not do as well as this.

The scene Erda/Wotan scene also provides the cover picture for Earnest Newman's Wagner Nights, which has probably taught me more about the operas than any other.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Morton said:


> The scene Erda/Wotan scene also provides the cover picture for Earnest Newman's Wagner Nights, which has probably taught me more about the operas than any other.
> 
> View attachment 92489


I love the cover--Wotan as Conan the Barbarian!


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

Not a real Tweet, but quite funny.


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