# Buxtehude vs Pachelbel.



## Ritwik Ghosh (May 14, 2014)

I want to know which is the greater. I invite your analyses.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

..................................


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Buxtehude. My rational argument? I hate Pachebel's Canon and I'm sick of hearing them at weddings.


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## Svelte Silhouette (Nov 7, 2013)

Yes, I'd have to agree and in line with your rationale.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Buxtehude has been better performed on record for sure, so it's very tempting to just delare that Buxtehude is obviously greater. But there are some recordings of Pachelbel which make his music sound very interesting indeed, like Rübsam's on Naxos. We need more like that one.

The core of Pachelbel's music is the sequence of 90 (?) or so Magnificat fugues. I'd always thought they were well boring, until I found the selection that Martin Neu recorded, with sung sections of the magnificat. Again, I think we await a really sympathetic Pachelbel performer.

By the way, didn't Pachelbel write BWV 565, or is that just an internet rumour?


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Buxtehude has been better performed on record for sure, so it's very tempting to just delare that Buxtehude is obviously greater. But there are some recordings of Pachelbel which make his music sound very interesting indeed, like Rübsam's on Naxos. We need more like that one.
> 
> The core of Pachelbel's music is the sequence of 90 (?) or so Magnificat fugues. I'd always thought they were well boring, until I found the selection that Martin Neu recorded, with sung sections of the magnificat. Again, I think we await a really sympathetic Pachelbel performer.


I'm in almost complete agreement with this. It's been two years and we still didn't get too many good performances of Pachelbel, just small offerings here and there, or very rare CDs.



Mandryka said:


> By the way, didn't Pachelbel write BWV 565, or is that just an internet rumour?


A section in one of Pachelbel's organ fantasias is note-for-note similar to a section in the beginning of the fugue of BWV 565. We (my friends and me) have long decided that at least the fugue of BWV 565 was not written by Bach - somebody liked that bit of Pachelbel and tried to make a fugue out of it, only it wasn't very suitable, so they had to take a lot of drastic measures, and that's how the many oddities of said fugue originated.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

They are both great, they both wrote extensively for the church. I think Bux appeared to have more control of harmonics using counterpoint but so did Pach. Of course, Pach is the better known today.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> They are both great, they both wrote extensively for the church. I think Bux appeared to have more control of harmonics using counterpoint but so did Pach. Of course, Pach is the better known today.


I don't think Pachelbel is better known than Buxtehude, but that's not significant. As for the quality of music-making, I'll definitely take Buxtehude. I've heard a lot of organ music of both composers and find the Buxtehude works more interesting, complex, varied, exciting and better crafted.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> They are both great, they both wrote extensively for the church. I think Bux appeared to have more control of harmonics using counterpoint but so did Pach. Of course, Pach is the better known today.


As you said, weddings and I add funerals .


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Myriadi said:


> I'm in almost complete agreement with this. It's been two years and we still didn't get too many good performances of Pachelbel, just small offerings here and there, or very rare CDs.


If you don't know it, maybe you'd enjoy hearing the CD by Edoardo Bellotti of the Hexachordum Apollinis and some sacred music, fugues. Organ performances. It's sober and IMO repays repeated listening. He's got a second Pachelbel CD which I keep meaning to hear.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> I don't think Pachelbel is better known than Buxtehude, but that's not significant. As for the quality of music-making, I'll definitely take Buxtehude. I've heard a lot of organ music of both composers and find the Buxtehude works more interesting, complex, varied, exciting and better crafted.


Some of Pachelbel's music is contrapuntally more complex - the pieces in Vol 9 and 10 of Payne's set seem to be selected for this reason partly. Generally I find Payne's Pachelbel rewarding, both organ and harpsichord, not least for the instruments.

Buxtehude isn't very relaxing, and you have these transitions from free music to fugues in the preludes which can be a bit jolting. And in general he's often played in a bit of a brash and flamboyant way, which is not really my cup of tea. I've certainly enjoyed Hans Davidsson because he slows it down, makes it reflective and spiritual, less restless, and he has a nice organ which makes the music sound like its full of juicy dissonances. Davidsson's bold and creative notes on the Gothic website were fun for me to read because I like that sort of thing.

I like Pachelbel because the music is peaceful.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Has anyone explored Pachelbel's vocal music?


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Some of Pachelbel's music is contrapuntally more complex - the pieces in Vol 9 and 10 of Payne's set seem to be selected for this reason partly. Generally I find Payne's Pachelbel rewarding, both organ and harpsichord, not least for the instruments.
> 
> Buxtehude isn't very relaxing, and you have these transitions from free music to fugues in the preludes which can be a bit jolting. And in general he's often played in a bit of a brash and flamboyant way, which is not really my cup of tea. I've certainly enjoyed Hans Davidsson because he slows it down, makes it reflective and spiritual, less restless, and he has a nice organ which makes the music sound like its full of juicy dissonances. Davidsson's bold and creative notes on the Gothic website were fun for me to read because I like that sort of thing.
> 
> I like Pachelbel because the music is peaceful.


Hmn. I have the Payne set, but I personally find his interpretations (and registrations) to be rather boring. Interesting instruments (including some very beautiful ones, such as the late-gothic Kiedrich organ or the Eisenberg Donat/Trost organ), but the stolid Walchaesque playing and rather neo-baroque sounding registrations are quite a turn off. (But I could see how someone would like them)
I do, however, like Rubsam, Piet Kee's, Kelemen's (He's usually quite a boring performer but not here) and Kei Koito's Pachelbel. Also Wim Winter's postings of Pachelbel works on his clavichord.

Meanwhile, Davidsson's Buxtehude set is very nice. I also love many other sets, such as Foccroulle (which I'm listening to right now), Vogel, Hanssen, Koito, and Koopman. (The latter two are absolute favorites) Some single discs are great too - for instance, Suzuki, or Piet Kee. You can tell that I love my brash and flamboyant Buxtehude 
I also enjoy his cantatas - especially played by Goteborg Baroque, which uses their grand organ in the continuo group.

Meanwhile, I agree that Pachelbel, while no way inferior, just needs a sympathetic performer. Still looking for one :tiphat:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

bioluminescentsquid said:


> Hmn. I have the Payne set, but I personally find his interpretations (and registrations) to be rather boring. Interesting instruments (including some very beautiful ones, such as the late-gothic Kiedrich organ or the Eisenberg Donat/Trost organ), but the stolid Walchaesque playing and rather neo-baroque sounding registrations are quite a turn off. (But I could see how someone would like them)
> I do, however, like Rubsam, Piet Kee's, Kelemen's (He's usually quite a boring performer but not here) and Kei Koito's Pachelbel. Also Wim Winter's postings of Pachelbel works on his clavichord.
> 
> Meanwhile, Davidsson's Buxtehude set is very nice. I also love many other sets, such as Foccroulle (which I'm listening to right now), Vogel, Hanssen, Koito, and Koopman. (The latter two are absolute favorites) Some single discs are great too - for instance, Suzuki, or Piet Kee. You can tell that I love my brash and flamboyant Buxtehude
> ...


Just q quick technical question, I don't play organ. When you say that Payne's registrations are neo-baroque sounding, what do you mean?

Is the Eisenberg Donat/Trost organ the one in v 7 of Payne's Pachelbel - I didn't much enjoy the playing on v 7. It's as if there's something slightly mechanical about his style, I always get the impression of someone pressing on through the music, head down as it were, without the punctuation, the respiration, to give the listener the opportunity to absorb and savour the gestures.

I think Payne's Pachelbel are not all equally successful.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Buxtehude isn't very relaxing, and you have these transitions from free music to fugues in the preludes which can be a bit jolting.


It depends what pieces you listen to. The preludes/fugues are certainly not relaxing; can't think of any reason why I would want to be relaxed by this category. However, Buxtehude's chorales are beautiful creations with a relaxing flow that strikes deep into my heart.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> If you don't know it, maybe you'd enjoy hearing the CD by Edoardo Bellotti of the Hexachordum Apollinis and some sacred music, fugues. Organ performances. It's sober and IMO repays repeated listening. He's got a second Pachelbel CD which I keep meaning to hear.


I have his Hexachordum - very intelligent playing. A little bit too fast for my taste, though. Allcoat's organ recordings are my favorite. He's playing a French organ and the extra colors seem to be exactly what Pachelbel needs to shine. There's another CD with Pachelbel's organ works en français, as it were, by Erik Feller. But he only recorded the toccatas, which I think aren't a very important part of Pachelbel's oeuvre.

Re: exploring vocal music, there's not much of it recorded (the manuscripts for his best vocal works are in the Bodleian Library, and as far as I know, they survived in terrible condition. I'm not sure if current editions are complete and/or made from restored manuscripts). I enjoyed the CD made by Charivari Agreable & King's Singers - some very beautiful pieces there. The booklet specifically singles out a gorgeous Gloria movement in one of the Magnificat settings.


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Just q quick technical question, I don't play organ. When you say that Payne's registrations are neo-baroque sounding, what do you mean?
> 
> Is the Eisenberg Donat/Trost organ the one in v 7 of Payne's Pachelbel - I didn't much enjoy the playing on v 7. It's as if there's something slightly mechanical about his style, I always get the impression of someone pressing on through the music, head down as it were, without the punctuation, the respiration, to give the listener the opportunity to absorb and savour the gestures.
> 
> I think Payne's Pachelbel are not all equally successful.


That's the impression Payne's Pachelbel gives me - mechanical, and without much nuance. Some discs are more successful than others, though.

The neo-baroque comment was aimed at a general feel (although the comparative abundance of gapped registrations contribute greatly to this) in the registrations that Payne uses, which really remind me of the playing of "Old masters" such as Walcha (whom I dislike).

The organ I referred to was the one in v8 (Same builder - Trost - but different location). I think it's quite a nice sounding organ - just not here.

I did find a Pachelbel set by Andrus Madsen, which sounds quite promising!


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Dietrich Buxtehudes music has nothing to do with flamboyance, it is rather more a combination to Schutz and Sweelincks traditions of eleborate harmonies than anything in all of his compositions. His organ works are of northern school which is characterized by vocal music themes and derived from the style of Sweelincks elegant improvisations. If you call Buxtehudes music flamboyant, you would be calling Sweelincks music as flamboyant too, it is badly awry. Don`t even forget that JS Bach admires him against the odds that we know very few composers received clear admiration from JS Bach.

I can not say whose music is better from Buxtehude and Pachelbel in general, but in terms of instrumental music, I think Buxtehude is more manneristic, which is cooler and more masculine than Pachelbel. In sense of beauty, yes Pachelbel has more ideas of beauty. In terms of vocal music, sorry, since Pachelbel did not compose much, Buxtehudes vocal music is miraculous.

Listen to "Jubilate Domino omnis terra“ by Dietrich, anyone who underrestimates him shall be sorry for the silliness.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Would anyone care to comment on whether and how Pachelbel influenced Bach's music? I know it's often said he did, that Bach copied out some of his music etc. (Apart from the possible thematic borrowing in 565) 

Re toccatas and preludes by Buxtehude, does anyone know what he wrote them for? Did the music have a religious function. 

"Mannerist" seems quite a good word for Buxtehude, I don't much like El Greco by the way. 

I expect that Bux's flamboyance comes more from performance. i know it is possible to play stylus phantasicus with a sense of improvisation without reducing the music to overbearing virtuosic bravura.

Oh and I'll just mention something I've been looking for for years without success in case someone can help out - Lena Jacobson's paper on the Musical Rhetoric in Buxtehude's Free Organ Works (Organ Yearbook 13.)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> It depends what pieces you listen to. The preludes/fugues are certainly not relaxing; can't think of any reason why I would want to be relaxed by this category. However, Buxtehude's chorales are beautiful creations with a relaxing flow that strikes deep into my heart.


What's your favourite Bux chorale?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I really enjoy these Buxtehude organ works performed by Ulrik Spang-Hanssen






I prefer Buxtehude of the two composers, but haven't really listened to much of Pachelbel.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> Would anyone care to comment on whether and how Pachelbel influenced Bach's music? I know it's often said he did, that Bach copied out some of his music etc. (Apart from the possible thematic borrowing in 565)
> 
> Re toccatas and preludes by Buxtehude, does anyone know what he wrote them for? Did the music have a religious function.
> 
> ...


It is interesting that we know very few what had been collected by JS Bach in his library and when we finally know that he collected works from both famous and less known composers, I had read on wiki(sources quoted by wiki neverthlessly) that JS Bach held only one theoretical work in his library: Gradus Ad Parnassum by Johann Fux(1660-1741), and also shelved a print of harpsichord suites by Pieter Bustijn(1649-1729) and a manuscript copy of a Missa in A by Johann Baal(1657-1701). JS Bachs 
musical upbringing is clearly much more complex than modern popular conceptions about his contemporaries and his musical seniors.

I read on sscm-jscm (Journal of Seventeenth-Century Music) site in an article about seventeenth century German cantatas that 
Buxtehudes music has been the focus of revival because his clear connection and influence on JS Bach.( I am trying to find that article right now.）

I am not sure about Johann Pachelbels influences on Bach, I was surprised that there is very few or no mentions of it happening from cd booklets and wiki. As beginner in early music amateurism, I have not yet obtained non-free articles. I cannot give further information beyond what is on internet for free and in CD booklets.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> Would anyone care to comment on whether and how Pachelbel influenced Bach's music? I know it's often said he did, that Bach copied out some of his music etc. (Apart from the possible thematic borrowing in 565)
> 
> Re toccatas and preludes by Buxtehude, does anyone know what he wrote them for? Did the music have a religious function.
> 
> ...


Maybe there are overtly individualistic interpretations out there, I have not heard many versions of organ music, my copies are by Harald Vogel from MD&G and by Ton Koopman from Challenge, they are perfect versions. Stylus Fantasticus and Musica Dramatica mentioned by Athanasius Kircher are exactly the type of mannerism where melodies are weakened. I do understand many people find Johann Pachelbels music more beautiful, since Pachelbel broke from the strict idioms of earlier generations, and make melodies more audible and harmonies simpler in cantabile style.(Infered from the article by Peter Wollney for CD "Easter Cantatas" performed by La Capella Ducale from CPO)


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Ariasexta said:


> It is interesting that we know very few what had been collected by JS Bach in his library and when we finally know that he collected works from both famous and less known composers, I had read on wiki(sources quoted by wiki neverthlessly) that JS Bach held only one theoretical work in his library: Gradus Ad Parnassum by Johann Fux(1660-1741), and also shelved a print of harpsichord suites by Pieter Bustijn(1649-1729) and a manuscript copy of a Missa in A by Johann Baal(1657-1701). JS Bachs
> musical upbringing is clearly much more complex than modern popular conceptions about his contemporaries and his musical seniors.


We actually know a lot about Bach's musical upbringing, influences, and musical library. Have you read Wolff's and Peters' biographies of Bach? Even if you can't afford those yet, maybe it'd be interesting to you to check out the contents of Bach family's private manuscripts with copies of pieces they enjoyed/used for practice. Just two examples out of many:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Bach_Buch
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuscrit_Möller
The articles are in French, but the tables of contents are obvious enough to read and understand. Bach also copied for himself the entire collections of music by André Raison and Nicolas de Grigny, for example - I believe that these copies survive. And then we know of a lot of music that he must have known even if the sources do not survive. For isntance, Bach's solo violin works were obviously inspired by a whole school of German solo violin music which flourished in e.g. Dresden. No Bach copies of such repertoire survive (and indeed very little of it survives at all), but we know he worked in Weimar with Johann Paul von Westhoff, whose early solo violin works exist, and of course in Weimar there was also Pisendel.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Would anyone care to comment on whether and how Pachelbel influenced Bach's music? I know it's often said he did, that Bach copied out some of his music etc. (Apart from the possible thematic borrowing in 565)


If you accept the authenticity of the Neumeister chorales (and you don't have to, not really), and a bunch of other early-ish chorales by Bach, it's easy to see how the central German school influenced him. And Pachelbel was of course by 1700 merely another word for central German school. But later, Bach being his ambitious and extraverted self, he ended up being far more seriously influenced by Buxtehude & Co., Vivaldi, and so on.



Mandryka said:


> Re toccatas and preludes by Buxtehude, does anyone know what he wrote them for? Did the music have a religious function.


I don't recall reading anything at all about religious functions of the Praeludia in Snyder's book, but it's been some years. I think they were pretty much absolute music, or tied to programs far removed from religion - wasn't there an interpretation of the passacaglia as a treatise on the phases of the moon?


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Ariasexta said:


> Dietrich Buxtehudes music has nothing to do with flamboyance, it is rather more a combination to Schutz and Sweelincks traditions of eleborate harmonies than anything in all of his compositions. His organ works are of northern school which is characterized by vocal music themes and derived from the style of Sweelincks elegant improvisations.


Um, I think this is very wrong on many levels. Sweelinck was the progenitor of the school, yes, but there's very little in common when you compare his work with Buxtehude's. The line is pretty clear there, actually: from Sweelinck it is but a small step to Tunder, from Tunder to Scheidemann, from Scheidemann to Reincken and Buxtehude and Lübeck. By the 1650s the northern school wasn't characterized by vocal music themes (whatever you meant by this), but by deeper and deeper excursions into the stylus phantasticus, more and more elaborate chorale fantasias and variations, experimentation with organ registration, new keyboard and pedalboard techniques, and so forth.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Myriadi said:


> By the 1650s the northern school wasn't characterized by vocal music themes (whatever you meant by this), but by deeper and deeper excursions into the stylus phantasticus, more and more elaborate chorale fantasias and variations, experimentation with organ registration, new keyboard and pedalboard techniques, and so forth.


I agree with most of your post. I just have a small quibble on one point: in my opinion, instrumental chorale fantasias actually _are _characterized by vocal music themes.

Chorales are vocal works. By definition, then, a chorale fantasia is an instrumental reworking of a vocal genre. Even the most elaborate chorale fantasias are based on melodies that originated as vocal music.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Myriadi said:


> Um, I think this is very wrong on many levels. Sweelinck was the progenitor of the school, yes, but there's very little in common when you compare his work with Buxtehude's. The line is pretty clear there, actually: from Sweelinck it is but a small step to Tunder, from Tunder to Scheidemann, from Scheidemann to Reincken and Buxtehude and Lübeck. By the 1650s the northern school wasn't characterized by vocal music themes (whatever you meant by this), but by deeper and deeper excursions into the stylus phantasticus, more and more elaborate chorale fantasias and variations, experimentation with organ registration, new keyboard and pedalboard techniques, and so forth.


_Marin Mersenne links motet and fantasia togather:"Figured, full music and enriched with all the subtleties of this science. When the musician takes the liberty of employing in it everything that comes to his mind without expressing the emotion of a single word, this composition is called a Fantasia or Recherche."_

-- Jean Pierre Ouvrard. CD blooklet for: Claude Le Jeune, Meslanges, Chansons and Fantasies. Ensemble Clement Janequin. HMF

Of course vocal music had heavy influence on keyboard or instrumental music of Northern School. We all know that Sweelincks music was influenced by besides Italian, also English and French traditions, not to mention he composed numerous French psalms and chansons. In fact I always avoid overtly technical analysis of music, because I emphasize on spontaneous response to music more than on technical analysis. This is also one of many reasons I value early music over modern music. However, I would develop foundamental understanding of major terms to discuss the relations between differen vocal and instrumental schools in historical and literary perspectives. I would say, the fugal structure is the foremost feature of Sweelinck keyboard music and as infered from wiki(Fugue), it was developed from imitative works, reasonably imitative vocal works(Imitative themes of motets or madrigals). Therefore I can reinterprete what I was saying by Vocal Themes is that these fugal structures developed from vocal themes. I said in a grossly way because I want to tune down the technical details. But I would admit that I said these by my intuitive understanding before finding supporting references. But I do have read the quoted Mersennes definition for Fantasia long before this discussion, but it just supports the initiative for beginning the argument to link early vocal music and instrumental genres.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Bettina said:


> I agree with most of your post. I just have a small quibble on one point: in my opinion, instrumental chorale fantasias actually _are _characterized by vocal music themes.
> 
> Chorales are vocal works. By definition, then, a chorale fantasia is an instrumental reworking of a vocal genre. Even the most elaborate chorale fantasias are based on melodies that originated as vocal music.


You're right of course - but it's the word "characterized" that I'm not sure about. See, a long sectional chorale fantasia may be based on the same chorale as a small setting by - why, by Pachelbel. But one is characterized by all kinds of keboard wizardry related to the text, while the other is characterized by, oh, I don't know - single affekt and a general contrapuntal approach.

@Ariasexta: this is also in response to your post. It's obvious that instrumental music as such was originally derived from vocal music. Compare Sweelinck and Cornet to see what I mean, they were contemporaries and lived very near each other. They both wrote music that you could say was inspired by vocal techniques - continuing a very long tradition, at that. But one is characterized by a very straight, mathematical attitude to structure, and the other's music is characterized by a very different approach - wild, disregarding the rules occasionally, flowing "vocal" lines broken by little bits of written-out ornamentation.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Myriadi said:


> You're right of course - but it's the word "characterized" that I'm not sure about. See, a long sectional chorale fantasia may be based on the same chorale as a small setting by - why, by Pachelbel. But one is characterized by all kinds of keboard wizardry related to the text, while the other is characterized by, oh, I don't know - single affekt and a general contrapuntal approach.
> 
> @Ariasexta: this is also in response to your post. It's obvious that instrumental music as such was originally derived from vocal music. Compare Sweelinck and Cornet to see what I mean, they were contemporaries and lived very near each other. They both wrote music that you coulQd say was inspired by vocal techniques - continuing a very long tradition, at that. But one is characterized by a very straight, mathematical attitude to structure, and the other's music is characterized by a very different approach - wild, disregarding the rules occasionally, flowing "vocal" lines broken by little bits of written-out ornamentation.


Yes this is interesting, I wouldn't like to say whether you're being totally fair to Pachelbel or Cornet, probably you are, but certainly the best of Sweelinck (the A minor ricercar is my favourite example) breaks away from the rails as you say. I've often wondered why, what was meant theologically by that bid for freedom. I'll just mention that Serge Schoonbroodt, who is not without shortcomings, seems to get this aspect of the music very well.

Does vocal music ever show this sort of wild braking away: Gombert, Ockegham? I'm not sure.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> What's your favourite Bux chorale?


If only one, it has to be BuxWV 189.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> If only one, it has to be BuxWV 189.


It seems like a nice celebratory prelude. Interesting to compare what Bux did with Bach's ideas about Luther's hymn in BWV 722.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Yes this is interesting, I wouldn't like to say whether you're being totally fair to Pachelbel or Cornet, probably you are, but certainly the best of Sweelinck (the A minor ricercar is my favourite example) breaks away from the rails as you say. I've often wondered why, what was meant theologically by that bid for freedom. I'll just mention that Serge Schoonbroodt, who is not without shortcomings, seems to get this aspect of the music very well.


You know, I'm not sure myself if I'm being fair, having lived so long with this music that I'm clearly not very objective. Certainly Sweelinck sometimes does very odd things, even if they're in his usual strict manner. I'm thinking for example of the D.14 Fantasia in A minor, there's a passage near the beginning of the piece where there's just two voices stating the theme and a countersubject, and then immediately afterwards the exact same passage is repeated an octave lower - no break, no interlude, just straightforward "echo" in an otherwise non-echo and very contrapuntal fantasia. So bizzare! And very beautiful.

The Ricercar is one of my favorite pieces of music, of course. I like Belder's organ recording on the NM Classics 9CD set - can't really listen to anyone else.



Mandryka said:


> Does vocal music ever show this sort of wild braking away: Gombert, Ockegham? I'm not sure.


I'd be interested to know. I'm slowly exploring this repertoire, but it's not an easy road. Maybe it's more logical to look for this kind of thing in the madrigals, though?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Myriadi said:


> The Ricercar is one of my favorite pieces of music, of course. I like Belder's organ recording on the NM Classics 9CD set - can't really listen to anyone else.


Where is that in the box? For some reason I only seem to be able to find Belder playing harpsichord on NM, maybe I've lost a CD.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Where is that in the box? For some reason I only seem to be able to find Belder playing harpsichord on NM, maybe I've lost a CD.


Bah, sorry! I've confused Belder and Matter. Belder plays the harpsichord version, _Matter_ plays the organ. The 5th CD.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Myriadi said:


> Bah, sorry! I've confused Belder and Matter. Belder plays the harpsichord version, _Matter_ plays the organ. The 5th CD.


Yes yes yes, that's fabulous. I also love what Matter does, it's like a transition from dark to light, so strange at the start - it's kind of reassuring to come across someone else who's noticed it and appreciates it.

It would be good to have more on record from him. His wiki says



> Bert Matter made a large number of CDs which he plays the organ in the St. Walburga Church both before and after the restoration. His Bach interpretations are widely appreciated


And I can see several things listed on france-orgue.fr, but I can't find any of them.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

I've heard one other record by Matter, Jacob Praetorius' _Vater unser im Himmelreich_ on the 12CD _Het Historische Orgel in Nederland_ series. It was rather nice but I can't remember much about it. It's the only other record of his that I've personally seen. Also, Youtube has a bunch of videos with him and/or his compositions played, it seems.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There's one here which is quite tempting

http://www.boeijengamusic.com/magnificat.html

J. S. Bach : BWV 564, 648, 733
J. K. Kerll : Passacaglia
S. Scheidt : Magnificat primi toni
D. Strungk : Magnificat noni toni
B. Matter : Magnificat De Lofzang van Maria

I quite like the little I've heard by Strungk.See what you think of this -- better than Pachelbel and Pieter Cornet maybe 






The magnificat 9th tone is on youtube and it sounds like good music to me.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Oh yes, I know the piece, it's very charming. I have Yearsley's wonderful recording of music by both Delphin and his son Nicolaus Adam. Strungk is a very curious figure to me, and very similar to Vincent Lübeck. Both had such great and long careers, both left behind a handful of incredible pieces (well, Lübeck also had some rather bland suites), and not much else. It's bewildering how they both managed to live for so long, yet so few pieces survived. (Oh, and Vincent's counterpart to this Toccata would obviously be the _Ich ruf zu Dir, Herr Jesu Christ_ fantasia. My favorite recording is by Martin Böcker.)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Buxtehude vs. Pachelbel

Sounds like a Champions League Football match.


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

Lots of things here:


Mandryka said:


> What's your favourite Bux chorale?


Wie schön leuchtet der morgenstern, BuxWV 223! 







Mandryka said:


> And I can see several things listed on france-orgue.fr, but I can't find any of them.


If you're talking about the organ, It's the organ of the Zutphen Walburgiskerk, which was built in the 17th century by the Bader family, and expanded in the 19th by Timpe. 
I have recordings of it with Koopman (I want to get the NM Sweelinck set; I only have the Glossa Sweelinck set right now), and despite its fame, I personally think it's quite a boring sounding organ - doesn't have anything that stands out for me.

As for Strungk, he is marvelous. Aside from this toccata, I also really like his magnificat setting:


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

Myriadi said:


> Oh yes, I know the piece, it's very charming. I have Yearsley's wonderful recording of music by both Delphin and his son Nicolaus Adam. Strungk is a very curious figure to me, and very similar to Vincent Lübeck. Both had such great and long careers, both left behind a handful of incredible pieces (well, Lübeck also had some rather bland suites), and not much else. It's bewildering how they both managed to live for so long, yet so few pieces survived. (Oh, and Vincent's counterpart to this Toccata would obviously be the _Ich ruf zu Dir, Herr Jesu Christ_ fantasia. My favorite recording is by Martin Böcker.)


You can't forget Reincken. He lived to be 80, and of course left behind the incredible An Wasserflüssen Babylon (Pachelbel's setting pales in comparison with this).


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

bioluminescentsquid said:


> You can't forget Reincken. He lived to be 80, and of course left behind the incredible An Wasserflüssen Babylon


Oh yes, silly of me. He did have the _Hortus_, though, but it's the same story otherwise.



bioluminescentsquid said:


> (Pachelbel's setting pales in comparison with this).


That's very unfair and uncalled for, in this particular case. Pachelbel never made any chorale fantasias, and couldn't even if he wished to, since he never played any large organs. His setting was most probably produced just for work, a little something for the Erfurt congregation, just like a multitude of his other chorales. If you want to compare them, try pitting _Hexachordum Apollinis_ against Reincken's _Mayerin_ variations.


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

Myriadi said:


> Oh yes, silly of me. He did have the _Hortus_, though, but it's the same story otherwise.
> 
> That's very unfair and uncalled for, in this particular case. Pachelbel never made any chorale fantasias, and couldn't even if he wished to, since he never played any large organs. His setting was most probably produced just for work, a little something for the Erfurt congregation, just like a multitude of his other chorales. If you want to compare them, try pitting _Hexachordum Apollinis_ against Reincken's _Mayerin_ variations.


That's true - in the North, many of the great organs (By Schnitger, Stellwagen, Scherers etc., with huge pedal divisions and mixtures: Buxtehude's Stellwagen organ had a 15-rank mixture) were built to show off the city's wealth and Reincken probably wrote the large Chorale Fantasies to impress visitors (The same probably goes for Buxtehude, Tunder, Bruhns etc. and their grandiose works) 
But that's why I prefer Northern German literature when it comes to organs - it's hard to find anything of the same magnitude as the great Fantasies Reincken, Schildt, Scheidemann etc. wrote.

But that doesn't mean that Pachelbel isn't a great composer - I still love his Toccatas, Ricercars, and a few chorales. They might not be as magnificent as those of Northerners, but they can be beautifully intimate (e.g. Ich ruf zu dir).

I do enjoy Reincken's Variations, be it the Ballet, the cute little Nightingale one, or the Mayerin. But of course the Hexachordum is still technically better.
Speaking of comparing, how do you think of Pachelbel's Freu dich vs Bohm's?

(I enjoy how this is becoming the "German Baroque organ music" thread!)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

bioluminescentsquid said:


> Speaking of comparing, how do you think of Pachelbel's Freu dich vs Bohm's?


Well, there are more variations in the Bohm (unless there are some I don't know - I just noticed a harpsichord performance of the Pachelbel on spotify (Ralph Waldner) which lasts nearly 15 minutes! Maybe it was incorrectly tagged.) And I think the Bohm has had some real inspired performances on record (like Wim van Beek's) Although I get the impression informally that Bohm's variations (towards the end) are more creative than anything in the Pachelbel set, I could well have missed something.

Tuinstra says that he thinks that in Bohm's music there's a tight link between the ideas in the hymn and the affects and gestures in the music.

(By the way, I just found quite an attractive performance of the Pachelbel on the Waltershausen Trost played by Theophil Heinke.)


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

bioluminescentsquid said:


> But that's why I prefer Northern German literature when it comes to organs - it's hard to find anything of the same magnitude as the great Fantasies Reincken, Schildt, Scheidemann etc. wrote.


I know what you mean! Sometimes I have these binge-listening urges for Scheidemann, Buxtehude, et al., precisely because there's nothing else quite like this music. The Romantics may have had more colors, but it's really not the same at all.



bioluminescentsquid said:


> Speaking of comparing, how do you think of Pachelbel's Freu dich vs Bohm's?


It's been a while since I've listened to either, but from what I remember the pair is probably a good illustration of what you so aptly described, intimacy in Pachelbel and magnificence in Bohm.



bioluminescentsquid said:


> (I enjoy how this is becoming the "German Baroque organ music" thread!)


Haha, yes, me too! The other composers must've come in to see who's winning


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

Myriadi said:


> I know what you mean! Sometimes I have these binge-listening urges for Scheidemann, Buxtehude, et al., precisely because there's nothing else quite like this music. The Romantics may have had more colors, but it's really not the same at all.


What are some of your favorite chorale fantasies by these composers?
Some of mine: 
Tunder's Christ lag in Todesbanden 
Weckmann's Komm heliger geist & Magnificat
Schildt's Herzlich lieb hab...
Strungk's Magnificat
Reincken's An Wasserflüssen.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

bioluminescentsquid said:


> What are some of your favorite chorale fantasies by these composers?


Lübeck's _Ich ruf zu Dir_
Scheidemann's _Magnificat VIII toni_ (both of them are wonderful)
Leyding's _Wie schön leuchtet der Morgenstern_ is incomplete but I'm very fond of the fragment that survives
Buxtehude's _Te Deum_
Bruhns' _Nun Komm der Heiden Heiland_

I haven't heard the Schildt you mention, or the Weckmann. Somehow I never get around to listening to much Weckmann. I'm in complete agreement over Reincken and Strungk, though. It's actually rather difficult to choose favorites...


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## jasper01 (Jan 19, 2019)

Ritwik Ghosh said:


> I want to know which is the greater. I invite your analyses.





violadude said:


> Buxtehude. My rational argument? I hate Pachebel's Canon and I'm sick of hearing them at weddings.




I dislike Pachebel's canon also, for the same reasons. However I have a big collection of 3.5 hours on spotify of both Pachebel and Buxtehude's choral works which I love and listen to all the time. Some of it is truly soul stirring to me.
Although I love choral music I am not religious but if I were to say God gave mankind a gift it is the gift of great music.


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