# Overall, what do you think of Regietheater in opera?



## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I'm interested in knowing the opinion of TCers about the practice.

P.S.: Is the term "Regietheater opera production" correct? Or is it a redundancy?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I do not like updated productions that make no sense, or one-idea stagings especially if it goes against the original libretto. I hate updated productions that are anachronistic (to the music), for instance modern-dress Handel or Vivaldi, or even modern-dress Verdi or Wagner. People in contemporary street clothes in those operas just look like rehearsals and take me right out of the opera. 
There are very rare productions that work for me in regie productions. People say, “but it’s good theater!” If I want good theater, I’ll go to the tester. I want good opera!


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## ManateeFL (Mar 9, 2017)

This excellent article by Heather Mac Donald pretty much sums it up...

The Abduction of Opera


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I cannot say "detest" simply because there have been maybe 1 or 2 whose directors didn't go haywire and produced a decent updating which didn't interfere with the music or the singing.
But overall, they are absolutely the most unimaginative waste of a magnificent art form and an insult to the creator's work.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

ManateeFL said:


> This excellent article by Heather Mac Donald pretty much sums it up...
> 
> The Abduction of Opera


Does it? I find it a trope ridden article that expresses one extreme in the regie vs traditional debate. it relies on the tired, ill thought out meme 'It's what the composer would have wanted.' It also lazily lumps anything that isn't 100% traditional into the regie pile and doesn't take account of some of the excellent modern productions (it has tended to be those that don't go to the extremes of Bieto), nor does it mention the many staid stagings where the singers do little more than stand and posture whilst singing badly - albeit in pretty costumes. (I find it sad that this latter formulation is exactly what some opera fans want.) Whilst you can go and see a play if you want drama, you can go to a church concert if you want beautiful, emotionless singing. You can argue that opera is neither of those things, but isn't it actually both?

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

This topic comes up about once every year on TC. What the OP considers 'regie' is seldom discussed and it isn't defined. I suspect it is a term that has become somewhat like the moon in Salome - each individual sees the word meaning what they want it to mean. I suspect for most it means 'modern productions I don't like'. It's no surprise that you will find most people here say they don't like them, but interestingly you will also see a number of people here talk about how they like particular modern opera productions despite them not being 100% traditional over the course of the rest of the year once this thread has sunk.

N.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

What I dislike most about regitheater is actually two things: overuse of sex and inaccuracy. One example is the Willy Decker traviata. I don't need to see Alfredo licking Violetta's toes or that kind of thing. And I don't get why on earth any director would have Violetta do anything but look in a mirror and say "O qual pallor!" when she's supposed to be looking in a mirror and saying "O qual pallor!"


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tuoksu said:


> What I dislike most about regitheater is actually two things: overuse of sex and inaccuracy. One example is the Willy Decker traviata. I don't need to see Alfredo licking Violetta's toes or that kind of thing. And I don't get why on earth any director would have Violetta do anything but look in a mirror and say "O qual pallor!" when she's supposed to be looking in a mirror and saying "O qual pallor!"


I agree, however that sort of straying from the stage directions in the score (or the obvious and sole meaning of the text) can happen in bad traditional productions as well. However a large part of the 'dreadful modern productions' crowd are quite happy with bad productions as long as they are traditional and don't like the better updated or regie ones. You've brought to mind the dreadful Strehler Don Giovanni at La Scala where Zerlina didn't know the difference between her heart and her xxx (you get the idea!)

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I think it would help if we could define what we mean by 'traditional' and 'regie'.

An opera loving friend of mine really likes regie productions and doesn't like traditional ones. However, he doesn't see an updating as regie, he even calls a mere updating traditional. There's a difference between non-traditional productions (an updating or setting at a different time, but the settings and characters are retained, think the Visconti Traviata at La Scala in 1955) and full on regie productions where the whole text is reinterpreted.

Furthermore it's clear that whilst there are two extremes here: 100% traditional (think of the Met Schenk Ring) to 100% regie (think of the Bayreuth Castorf Ring) [See pics below], like most things productions fall somewhere in a spectrum between those two extremes. Therefore I think it very difficult to say whether one likes regie productions in general and they have to be taken on a case by case basis.















I like traditional stagings as long as there is interaction between the singers that makes sense when paired with the libretto and they aren't mere concerts in pretty costumes. There are bad traditional productions as well as good ones. I have no problem with updating or changing the original time period of an opera either. Sometimes it works. The Visconti Traviata and more recently the ROH McVicar Faust were successful because the story made sense in those late nineteenth settings (after all the operas are both works of the nineteenth century and the views of society at that time is the context in which they were written). I wouldn't call those productions regie despite being non-traditional. Changing the time period of an opera doesn't always work with the text and it can also be done badly. Again there are good updated and bad updated productions.

I find most true regie productions (where the time period, settings and characters are all changed from the original) rarely work because they depart so much from the libretto. (They work better when operas are sung in translation and therefore the text can be tailored to the production.) However, sometimes they do work and work very well. Michieletto's Cav and Pag at the ROH and the Castorf Ring are two regie productions which worked for me (the Cav was more of an updated staging than true regie though). There are good regie productions (and in a few operas regie productions work).

However if people want to live their life according to tired cliches and without nuance who am I to try and stop them!

N.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

The Conte said:


> I think it would help if we could define what we mean by 'traditional' and 'regie'.


For the purposes of this thread, please consider the definition below, taken *from wikipedia*:

"_Regietheater_ (German for director's theater) is the modern (mainly post-World War II) practice of allowing a director freedom in devising the way a given opera or play is staged so that the creator's original, specific intentions or stage directions (where supplied) can be changed, together with major elements of geographical location, chronological situation, casting and plot. Typically such changes may be made to point a particular political point or modern parallels which may be remote from traditional interpretations.

Examples found in Regietheater productions may include some or all of the following:


Relocating the story from the original location to a more modern period (including setting in a totalitarian regime);

Modifications to the story from the original script;

Interpretative elements stressing the role of race/gender/class-based oppression are emphasised. In his 1976 staging of the Ring Cycle at the Bayreuth Festival, Patrice Chéreau used an updated 19th century setting that followed the interpretation of George Bernard Shaw who saw the Ring as a social commentary on the exploitation of the working class by wealthy 19th century capitalists;

Abstraction in the set design;

An emphasis on sexuality;

Costumes that frequently mix eras and locales. Examples include the Opera Theatre of Saint Louis's 2010 production of Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro and its 2011 Don Giovanni which portray some characters in 18th century attire and others in mid-20th century clothing."


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Thanks for the definition (which is very wide). The following in the list confuses two things (obviously needs a Wiki edit), a relocation is different to a change in era (although a lot of the time nowadays you see both together).



Allerius said:


> Relocating the story from the original location to a more modern period (including setting in a totalitarian regime)


This definition would include not just all non-traditional productions, but also traditional productions where the director takes liberties in terms of the libretto. Therefore it is so wide I'm surprised that as many as 58% of people in the poll say they detest these.

This definition includes Wieland Wagner's Bayreuth productions, the Visconti Traviata and Ifigenia in Tauride (both of which were updated), Strehler's Don Giovanni as well as countless other classic productions. (See examples below.)

As I've already said people will say that they detest 'regie', but that will not be borne out by the positive comments for a number of non-traditional opera productions that you will see in this forum over the coming months.






























N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

What do you think of *Alcina* set in an insane asylum; *Cosi fan tutte * in an American diner; long coats as a recurring item in multiple operas, for a time _de rigueur_ for almost any updating; chairs stuck to walls as recurring items in several different opera productions; Nazi uniforms in an opera not involving WWII; American army uniforms in operas not involving the American army; Handel's *Theodora*, which involves Christians and Romans, set in modern day America, with executions done by lethal injection (I think); chefs with pig heads in *Hänsel und Gretl*. Huge rats in *Lohengrin*! WTF? 
And many more on videos I have discarded, though the singing was OK to exquisite, but I couldn't countenance the desecration.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I must say, I haven't really warmed up to true regie productions. I have nothing against updated staging as long as it works but some regies take it slightly too far... this one comes to mind :lol:.






My main problem with regie productions is that often they seem to be strongly focused on one aspect of the work while dismissing all the others. The result is not the same work composer had in mind (I guess there was a reason why Wagner didn't let _Parsifal_ to be staged outside Bayreuth during his lifetime.) BUT I don't say that some regie productions wouldn't work marvellously, it just needs a lot more thinking to make them work and probably depends on the opera as well. I feel one problem is that operas are sometimes regarded as means to convey the ideas of the artistic director and not the composer. I think I wouldn't have anything against a regie production that just tries to convey composer's original intentions in a more innovative way. BTW does anyone have any recommendations of good DVDs of regie productions?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

For me the decided difference between Regietheater and Eurotrash is that Regie is annoyingly attempting to improve on the composer's creation by updating and adding risque, sexual and disruptive stage goings-on while the singers are attempting to sing, and Eurotrash is the bottom of the garbage heap in decadent, lowdown, non-creative, hubristic purloining of a composer's and libbrettist's works.
Examples of Regie:
Willy Decker's recent Traviata with the famous clock (of doom -- yeh, we get it!) is annoying and silly. And all the fussing with the removing furniture covers and putting them back again is dumber than dumb.

Mary Zimmermann's stupid idea of photographers taking a picture of the wedding scene in "Lucia" was downright disruptive while the singers were all attempting the great Sextette aria; as was her idea to have Lucia's ghost return to give Edgardo a knife in which to kill himself. (Whassa matta? Is he too weak to do himself in?) 
She also made a mess of "La Sonnambula" as well.

A little bit better because it did not disrupt the flow of the music and singing was the Sinatra Rat Pack "Rigoletto" with casinos and mobsters. At least it was entertaining in some way.

Much better was a "Suor Angelica" with Patricia Racette and Ewa Podles where they updated the nun's convent to a hospital for crippled children. The upgrading did not harm the singers or the music and simply gave a different view of the environment.

And then there are the bowels of the earth Eurotrash with audacious no-talent directors and mysogynists like the king of kings, Calixto Bieito. His mama must have done some kind of job on him when he was a kid, and we get to pay the price for his sick mind. 

For starters: His "Un Ballo" with men reading newspapers at urinals with their bare fannies all in a row for our viewing pleasure was mild in comparison to his cutting off nipples and having the blood flow into a glass. Nice guy.

And then from the ridiculous to the sublime with Hans Neuenfels who did a "Lohengrin" with all the characters as rats. Can you smile and say "cheese?"

These, are the lowest of the low (in my subjective opinion of course.)
So, I've changed my mind. Change my "dislike" vote to a big fat "detest!"


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

MAS said:


> What do you think of *Alcina* set in an insane asylum; *Cosi fan tutte * in an American diner; long coats as a recurring item in multiple operas, for a time _de rigueur_ for almost any updating; chairs stuck to walls as recurring items in several different opera productions; Nazi uniforms in an opera not involving WWII; American army uniforms in operas not involving the American army; Handel's *Theodora*, which involves Christians and Romans, set in modern day America, with executions done by lethal injection (I think); chefs with pig heads in *Hänsel und Gretl*. Huge rats in *Lohengrin*! WTF?
> And many more on videos I have discarded, though the singing was OK to exquisite, but I couldn't countenance the desecration.


I haven't seen any of these productions and so I don't have an opinion about them. Some of the tropes you mention have become tired and cliched, however the OP asked what people think of regie _overall_ and going by the Wikipedia definition it includes such a wide range of productions I can't believe anyone can really say that they detest productions that aren't 100% faithful to every direction in the libretto (or even that they love them).

I could similarly choose a number of bad sopranos and then question how anyone could like sopranos in general. There are good productions and there are bad productions, some are traditional and some are not. There is also personal taste and opinion and so there are many productions that of course receive mixed acclaim.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

annaw said:


> I must say, I haven't really warmed up to true regie productions. I have nothing against updated staging as long as it works but some regies take it slightly too far... this one comes to mind :lol:.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I enjoyed this Parsifal (although it does reinterpret some themes in the work and some think it goes too far).









Then this Falstaff (updated to the fifties works well I think).









McVicar's Faust is another favourite of mine.









N.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Thanks, Conte! I've also heard good things about McVicar's _Faust_ but haven't yet seen any of these.


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## Dick Johnson (Apr 14, 2020)

I voted “dislike” but have to admit that many of Conte’s comments have softened that opinion somewhat. Very rarely, some regie appeals to me – as long as the production fits the libretto in a manner that makes sense. The Robert Carsen production of Falstaff at the Met worked really well – despite being set in the 1950s. Similarly, I thought I would hate the recent production of Cosi Fan Tutte set at Coney Island – but it actually was ok and didn’t detract from the opera. In both of these examples, the story and characters were true to the libretto – just the period of the costumes and sets were changed. These changes are relatively subtle and don’t change the essential messages of the opera. The director was not trying to force the audience to watch a different opera than the one the composer and librettist had created. On the other hand, directors can really ruin my enjoyment of a great opera when they try to force an entirely new meaning onto a work when the original setting is important to the work’s identity. There are exceptions for sure - but if given a choice, I try to avoid the excessive regie productions. I wish I could erase any memory of recent productions of Tosca and La Favorita that were set in futuristic dystopian societies.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

There are numerous ways Regietheater can affect an opera. Some I despise; others I find can enhance a story. It also depends on the opera. I never want to see Flotow's Martha Regie, but Bellini's La Sonnambula has worked well for me in Regie--in some cases, not all.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm concerned with congruence and unity in art, and not very fond of the postmodern idea of mixing styles. "Updatings" frequently do the latter, and we might hear, for example, very formal, structured and ornamental Baroque music in barrooms or at rodeos. The mere fact that a story CAN be set in various times and places is no reason for it to be set there if nothing is added to its meaning and we experience cognitive dissonance between what we see and what we hear. I grant that once we note the incongruity we might simply accept it, and in some cases enjoy it. I think comedy is more amenable to such treatment than tragedy, given the ironic perspective that comedy already has, but that depends on the balance of irony and absurdity against genuine pathos. _Cosi fan tutte_ set in the 1950s is plausible because the plot is fundamentally farcical and the characters mostly one-dimensional, but _Die Meistersinger,_ with its serious elements and its range of personalities and social relationships characteristic of its period, belongs in 16th-century Nuremberg.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Hate them. Awful, cheap, inauthentic way of trying to modernise operas. Stage more modern operas!


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## Andrew Kenneth (Feb 17, 2018)

Without regietheater I would not be watching opera.
(My introduction to opera was the Boulez/Chereau ring)

I certainly am not interested in watching a "realistically" staged opera.
(reminds me of Disney-live-action-films)

Compare these two "La Bohème" productions =>

1) The Met => The fifties called and they want their opera back.






2) and this Paris Opera production.
(Now this is a production I'd love to see)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^ Comparing trailers is hardly comparing productions. The second one did make me laugh though, especially the guy with the fire extinguisher or bug sprayer or whatever that was. It occurs to me that Mimi's death could be funny too; they could save money on a burial (I know Rodolfo is crying because coffins are too expensive) by ejecting her from the space capsule and letting her float away, and the audience would save money on Kleenex. Does it snow on the moon, by the way, or was that a class M planet? So many questions occur to one. _La Boheme_ is a deeper work than I realized.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Andrew Kenneth said:


> Without regietheater I would not be watching opera.
> (My introduction to opera was the Boulez/Chereau ring)
> 
> I certainly am not interested in watching a "realistically" staged opera.
> ...


Thank goodness we all have a different taste .:angel:


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Andrew: You sound more like a comic book hero kinda devotee. The kind who gets a real kick out of the unusual and strange rather than a serious endeavor into a composer's magnificent music and vocal creation.
Looks to me like they could take away all the music come scritto and replace it with rock examples instead and it would be a vast improvement for you.
I say go for it if that's your thang.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

There are a FEW that actually work (mostly ones where the opera isn't tied to a specific era / is a comedy / is a fantasy) but the vast majority are boring, unimaginative and cheap-looking. Why is is always suits / nazi uniforms / horrible clashing colours that no actual human would ever wear?

It's entirely possible to make something modern and not put it on a near-empty stage but make detailed sets! (A good example is the Copenhagen Ring, which really had fantastic sets and overall worked really well.)

I don't mind when, say, Lucia is placed into the Victorian era because 17th century fashion was ugly. Or when a rococo era production omits the stupid *** white wigs. You don't have to stick to every little detail, but overall period costumes just look prettier. 

One thing that DOES **** me off, however, is nobody ever playing ancient Greek/Roman plots in their own era. It's always baroque/rococo or modern. I want some goddamn togas! I don't care how they played them in the time of the premiere! 

And while I love modern Rings (usually), I'm tired of seeing Hagen in badly tailored suits. Make him goth! Make him a metalhead! He's just not a suit guy. 

Also: a lot of directors think changing the era/setting is all they need to do and forget to, ya know, DIRECT. And then you have people parking and barking in a refinery.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I'm a person who likes the _Ring_ traditional because of its complexity which I think cannot be fully conveyed in another setting. On the other hand, I find some of Wieland Wagner's staging ideas very compelling but they were not really regie. Hotter put the problem with regietheater very well into words and he worked as a stage director after he retired from singing:

"One has to be economical with one's resources. One has to be careful. Everyone is in a rush today. I know, I sang my first Wotan when I was only 22. But that was in a very small house, and under very sympathetic conditions. It was a dangerous gamble, and I was lucky to survive. Today, no one has time to develop, to really study the important things. The training today is dubious, and we don't have ensemble theaters any more that nurture talent.

Young singers aren't taught how a king walks, how a banker walks, how a peasant walks. They don't care about the correct look of a character. They don't know how to wear a costume. They don't know how to hold a sword, much less a spear.

Of course, the things that were so important to me don't matter as much now. I am appalled by so many of the new productions. Everything has to be different for the sake of being different. The new ideas may be very theatrical, and sometimes they actually bring out great things for the individual singers. But they often disregard the music. They change so many things in the composer's ideas."

So, no spear, no problem  !


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

annaw said:


> I'm a person who likes the _Ring_ traditional because of its complexity which I think cannot be fully conveyed in another setting.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


I am with you in terms of the traditional settings being able to convey the complexity of the story and the fact that it needs to be removed from us, at a higher plane as it were, so as to not interfere with the depth of the conflicts presented because we're reinterpreting to justify our perception of a historical period closer to us. That's why many of us like opera: we want to transcend our lives and be immersed into larger than life characters, conflicts and emotions. For example, we go to see _La Bohème_ to see ourselves reflected in the characters and cry about our own lives in a detached sort of way.

Walking as the character is soooo important. I will use as an example Freni -- as singer I love to listen to -- but I did not find effective on stage. Look at the way she first walks on stage before she even starts singing in all the videos I have seen. No matter if it is Elisabetta, Mimí, or Adina she walks always the same way. It's Mirella all the way: she does not establish who the character is.


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## Andrew Kenneth (Feb 17, 2018)

nina foresti said:


> Andrew: You sound more like a comic book hero kinda devotee. The kind who gets a real kick out of the unusual and strange rather than a serious endeavor into a composer's magnificent music and vocal creation. (...)


As a wagnerite I think I'm in good company then considering the recent Bayreuth productions.

Bayreuth has a tradition of upsetting conservatives. The first Bayreuth production to get booed by conservative audience members wasn't the Boulez/Chereau centenary Ring but the 1956 Meistersinger (directed by Wieland Wagner)
http://www.wagneroperas.com/index1956meistersinger.html
Here's a conservative cartoon depicting Wagner's ghost committing suicide because of this 1956 production.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Andrew Kenneth said:


> As a wagnerite I think I'm in good company then considering the recent Bayreuth productions.
> 
> Bayreuth has a tradition of upsetting conservatives. The first Bayreuth production to get booed by conservative audience members wasn't the Boulez/Chereau centenary Ring but the 1956 Meistersinger (directed by Wieland Wagner)
> http://www.wagneroperas.com/index1956meistersinger.html
> ...


Had Wagner known.... maybe it's better he didn't. That 1956 production was later called nothing else but _Die Meistersinger ohne Nürnberg_ (in translation The Mastersingers without Nuremberg).


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I don't know if *Robert Wilson* productions fall under the Regietheater umbrella, but I have liked at least two of his non-traditional opera productions: _Pelleas et Melisande_ and _L'Orfeo _- both of which I saw via streaming. That said, I really don't like opera productions which attempt to recast a 18th or 19th century work in modern dress and employing modern political or cultural references.


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## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

annaw said:


> Everything has to be different for the sake of being different.


Yup! ...and when everything is different for the sake of being different then productions may come across as all being the same to some discerning folks.

I don't think the label "conservative" applies to those who want to oblige the composers intentions. Maybe a more appropriate description is "faithful."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Wieland's attempt to apply his stripped down, abstract design to _Meistersinger_ was generally felt to be incongruous with the detailed historically based story, unique in Wagner's work. I agree with that view.

It's ironic that many modern productions of Wagner's nonhistorical, mythical dramas insert specific historical references NOT intended by the composer.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I think some elements of _regietheater_ presentation such as troops wearing combat fatigues or a sparse factory setting with obligatory slow-moving air cooling fans are now more hackneyed than what they actually replaced.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Wieland's attempt to apply his stripped down, abstract design to _Meistersinger_ was generally felt to be incongruous with the detailed historically based story, unique in Wagner's work. I agree with that view.
> 
> *It's ironic that many modern productions of Wagner's nonhistorical, mythical dramas insert specific historical references NOT intended by the composer.*


Particularly when they happen to be connected with a certain period during the 20th century...


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

I don't _always_ hate the Regietheater, but there are really few productions of that sort that I really enjoy. I absolutely love Alain Maratrat's works with audience participation, modern costumes and occasionally a telephone - but the ones I saw were _Die Zauberflöte_ (the wine is shared with the audience and it's something more like cherry juice), _Il viaggio a Reims_ (got recorded in 2005), _The Love for Three Oranges_ (Truffaldino throws candy to the audience) and _Il barbiere di Siviglia_ (two people are selected at random from the audience - really at random, a colleague of my parents' was picked once - and given a hair dye). The comic plots really go well with Maratrat's style.

Regie in more serious operas just annoys me. In Bieito's take on _Fidelio_, for example, Don Fernando is dressed as a clown and shoots Fidelio, who falls down and then gets up as if nothing has happened. Seriously? I want to enjoy the touching finale, not to analyze the incredibly deep meanings of… this.

I like the Liceu recordings of _Die Entführung aus dem Serail_, or, for example, the Copenhagen Ring - but that's because of the singers (and non-singers, in the former's case) and in spite of the production. In Copenhagen's _Das Rheingold_, for example, I only watch the second and fourth scenes (yes, I'm really predictable when it comes to this opera…), because the Alberich-related blood and gore is just nauseating.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The Met has done several productions in recent years which updated the action to the present day and changed the locale without reducing everything to ridiculously arbitrary gimmicks and which did no damage to the operas and were even quite effective .
For example, Rigoletto set in 1960s Las Vegas where the Duke is a crooner and Rigoletto is a stand up comic in his act, Fidelio set in what looks like a Latin American banana republic and Macbeth in the present day . I haven't seen the Cosi fan Tutte set in Coney Island but form what I've seen in photos and reviews it didn't seem egregiously stupid . 
If done right, updating opera productions is not objectionable .


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

annaw said:


> BTW does anyone have any recommendations of good DVDs of regie productions?


If it exists on DVD, I would recommend the last Bayreuth production of Tannhäuser, (the Tin Drum production by Tobias Kratzer) which I found absolutely riveting.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> If it exists on DVD, I would recommend the last Bayreuth production of Tannhäuser, (the Tin Drum production by Tobias Kratzer) which I found absolutely riveting.


Two more wishes. Use them wisely.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I was cover in a regie production of Siegfried in Germany and I must say that I enjoyed it immensely


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

amfortas said:


> Two more wishes. Use them wisely.
> 
> View attachment 138925


That one scares me! A deranged clown and a deranged woman! 
Oh, and now I see the bird on the middle of the dashboard.
I feel like I am about to be a hit and run victim!


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Barbebleu said:


> If it exists on DVD, I would recommend the last Bayreuth production of Tannhäuser, (the Tin Drum production by Tobias Kratzer) which I found absolutely riveting.





amfortas said:


> Two more wishes. Use them wisely.
> 
> View attachment 138925


Huge thanks for the recommendation  !


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

amfortas said:


> Two more wishes. Use them wisely.
> 
> View attachment 138925


Is this out yet? I can't see it on Amazon.co.uk. I do have it on MP4 but I would like a Blue-Ray of it.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Barbebleu said:


> Is this out yet? I can't see it on Amazon.co.uk. I do have it on MP4 but I would like a Blue-Ray of it.


Presto has it: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8767500--wagner-tannhauser and https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8767501--valery gergiev-wagner: tannhäuser .


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Great. A clown in a truck


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Itullian said:


> Great. A clown in a truck


I wonder... when was the last time Bayreuth made a traditional production?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> Is this out yet? I can't see it on Amazon.co.uk. I do have it on MP4 but I would like a Blue-Ray of it.


The Blu-ray is available on U.S. Amazon--though in a regional format that won't play in the Western hemisphere. Go figure.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

annaw said:


> Presto has it: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8767500--wagner-tannhauser and https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8767501--valery gergiev-wagner: tannhäuser .


Thank you. It's not clear whether or not this is Blue-Ray. I shall investigate further. I really enjoyed this production. For me it had many illuminating moments and it was beautifully acted and extremely well sung all round. I think I posted on this on another thread, the title of which escapes me for the moment.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

annaw said:


> I wonder... when was the last time Bayreuth made a traditional production?


Probably sometime in the nineteenth century:lol:


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Barbebleu said:


> Probably sometime in the nineteenth century:lol:


1883 might have been the last time :lol:.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

annaw said:


> I wonder... when was the last time Bayreuth made a traditional production?


I believe it was when Peter Hall produced the ring


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I believe it was when Peter Hall produced the ring


That would have been the centenary ring in 1983 with Solti at the helm. I have the audio of that Ring and I think it's excellent. Solti in the theatre was a different creature from the studio one!


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Barbebleu said:


> That would have been the centenary ring in 1983 with Solti at the helm. I have the audio of that Ring and I think it's excellent. Solti in the theatre was a different creature from the studio one!


I think that's the great thing about Bayreuth recordings! They bring out different aspects of conductors and singers while enabling to follow the development of their interpretation. When it comes to productions, I think I'd prefer Wieland Wagner's stagings to many other modern ones. Especially when it comes to operas like _Tristan_ which have less stage action anyways. It's a different case with _Die Meistersinger_, I guess. At least in their essence, many Wieland Wagner's productions remained traditional. By that I mean that he didn't try to give them a new meaning but maybe to bring out the deeper meaning even more. If I recall correctly then Hotter, who obviously was quite a tradutionalist, wrote that while it took time to get used to, the singers didn't have huge problems with those stagings otherwise (with a few exceptions like the _Die Meistersinger_ I suppose).


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

annaw said:


> I wonder... when was the last time Bayreuth made a traditional production?


I believe the productions were *all* pretty traditional--and getting quite threadbare--up until World War II. It was only after the war, with the reopening of the theater in 1951, that Wieland Wagner dispensed with the old trappings and took things in a more abstract, pared-down direction (for both ideological and economic reasons).


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

amfortas said:


> I believe the productions were *all* pretty traditional--and getting quite threadbare--up until World War II. It was only after the war, with the reopening of the theater in 1951, that Wieland Wagner dispensed with the old trappings and took things in a more abstract, pared-down direction (for both ideological and economic reasons).


Yeah, the older Wagners seemed to be quite traditional. I recall an amusing remark which Winifred Wagner, who disliked the production, made about Chereau _Ring_: "Isn't it better to be furious than to be bored?" :lol:

It would be a dream to see a truly traditional _Ring_ at Bayreuth though!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

amfortas said:


> Two more wishes. Use them wisely.
> 
> View attachment 138925


I've ordered it. Yay!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

annaw said:


> Presto has it: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8767500--wagner-tannhauser and https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8767501--valery gergiev-wagner: tannhäuser .


I've ordered it. It is the Blue-Ray. Should arrive by next Friday.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

This is an interesting article about the Bayreuth 2018 Tannhäuser.

https://www.dw.com/en/tannhäuser-at...y-within-a-play-inside-and-outside/a-49751299


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

One problem I have regie productions is that a lot of them tend to be extremely ugly, and totally unnecessarily so. That's not inherent in the genre, but it's my experience, whatever that's worth. There's a lot about the world that's extremely ugly, so I don't see why we need to go about making more gratuitous ugliness of our own (as opposed to the meaningful ugliness of Michele's murder of Luigi, which it is part of an artist's job to create in order to be truthful about the world).

That being said, even if a production isn't ugly, it can still fail for me. Conte is absolutely right that there are traditional productions that have no real theater, even if they look prettier. I agree that that is undesirable. It is also possible that part of the prejudice against modern productions comes from the fact that those of us who think singing has declined tend to associate them with performances we don't like for other reasons.

I can like anything, as long as it's good. And what I want in an opera production is for it to be good at expressing the meaning of what the composer created (which is not always equal to what the composer consciously intended). That's where many regie productions fail. They fail because they don't really engage with the work on its own terms. They are often driven by psychoanalytic interpretations or social or literary theory, all of which has virtually nothing to do with the operas in question. Another problem is that updating, even (or perhaps especially) if preserving the plot, is often totally pointless. For example, what does this setting gain us in terms of getting at the meaning of _Gianni Schicchi_:





It doesn't really even provide us with any new jokes. It's mostly dull, fairly lifeless theater, except for the rather charming way that O mio babbino caro has been handled.

This very traditional production, however, is full of life, and there is real humor, understanding, and craft in how it has been put together:





If you could do regie production that was as full of life as that traditional one, I would love it. If you can't, then you shouldn't. Most directors that I've seen can't pull that off, in part because they aren't trying to. They're trying to conform the work to some anachronistic, fashionable pseudo-intellectual nonsense. I have no interest in that.

_Gianni Schicchi_ is an example of what Woodduck was saying about _Meistersinger_. It is almost mandatory to set it in Renaissance Florence, because the social context (the mule, exile, Guelf-Ghibelline conflict) and intellectual and spiritual heart of the Renaissance (Dante, the Medicis, science, art, craftsmanship) is at center of the work. This is also essential for the _Trittico_ as a whole if it's to work properly as a three piece set, which Puccini very much intended.

And finally, if you are going to set a Puccini opera in space, it's got to be _Turandot_. Turandot as an alien princess who devours her suitors while her capricious subjects pray to the moon(s)? I would watch that.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

vivalagentenuova said:


> And finally, if you are going to set a Puccini opera in space, it's got to be _Turandot_. Turandot as an alien princess who devours her suitors while her capricious subjects pray to the moon(s)? I would watch that.


Sure. Why not? A Star-Trekky class M planet somewhere is really no more unreal a setting than the imaginary China of the libretto, and the irrationality of the characters might be deemed normal for Klingon or Ferengi types.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Another problem is that updating, even (or perhaps especially) if preserving the plot, is often totally pointless. For example, what does this setting gain us in terms of getting at the meaning of _Gianni Schicchi_ . . .


I enjoy both productions for their lively performances. From that standpoint, the updated setting of the second one, while it may not add much, doesn't really detract either.

Actually, my one real reservation about the later production is the "_O mio babbino caro_." I'm fine with the staging; I just wish it were better sung.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I stumbled upon one Karajan documentary on Youtube today and one opera-related thing really caught my attention. Just crazy how they used to make the stage design back then:





 (6:19)


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

annaw said:


> I stumbled upon one Karajan documentary on Youtube today and one opera-related thing really caught my attention. Just crazy how they used to make the stage design back then:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*sigh*... They used to make them so beautiful...


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Depends what we mean by regietheatre and just whether it serves the composer and the opera going public. There are some of these idiots who just serve themselves and appear to want to offend as many paying customers as possible. But there are directors that are full of imagination and breath new life into old operas. I think of Carson's production of Falstaff which I greatly enjoyed set in Elizabeth II England and also his production of Rinaldo which is completely re-imagined as dream. Not what Handel intended of course but then the opera public was very different in Handel's day. For one thing the lights were on and you played cards and chatted when you weren't interested. Hence directors have to have far more stagecraft to keep today's public amused. The main thing is that it is recognisable and entertaining.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Andrew Kenneth said:


> Without regietheater I would not be watching opera.
> (My introduction to opera was the Boulez/Chereau ring)
> 
> I certainly am not interested in watching a "realistically" staged opera.
> ...


Does anyone involved in this know what a terrible idea using candles as a lighting source in a limited oxygen environment is? Why would a future society choose as space explorers a vagabond band of struggling Parisian artists and a beautiful seamstress?

Opera already involves a bit of surrealism (no one pours their heart out into a high C as a declaration of unrequited love five minutes after meeting their object of adoration) but surely there is a reasonable expectation that things can be pieced together; that one can imagine the spirit of the story having a sense of verisimilitude even if every plot point does not?


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

BachIsBest said:


> Does anyone involved in this know what a terrible idea using candles as a lighting source in a limited oxygen environment is? Why would a future society choose as space explorers a vagabond band of struggling Parisian artists and a beautiful seamstress?
> 
> Opera already involves a bit of surrealism (no one pours their heart out into a high C as a declaration of unrequited love five minutes after meeting their object of adoration) but surely there is a reasonable expectation that things can be pieced together; that one can imagine the spirit of the story having a sense of verisimilitude even if every plot point does not?


I have seen the Met on3 which is conventional and serves Puccini. The other just attracts attention to the director so I just don't bother with such things. Like a little boy saying, 'Look at me!'


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Handelian said:


> Hence directors have to have far more stagecraft to keep today's public amused. The main thing is that it is recognisable and entertaining.


For me, it has to make sense. But more than just that, it has to work as a whole - the staging, the music, the plot, the performances. If I'm thinking about the staging (more than beyond the initial "ooh!" as the curtain rises) throughout the opera, then it's just not working at all.

One of the greatest regie productions I ever had the joy of witnessing was Christopher Alden's A Midsummer Night's Dream at the ENO in 2011. A radical and controversial departure from what Britten must have imagined, but it came together seamlessly - just stunning:










Whereas Tannhäuser set in a Salvation Army hall at Den Norske Opera the year prior was, in my opinion, a complete and utter disaster, despite decent performances:










Whether trad or regie, this really is my only criterion.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2020)

Handelian said:


> Depends what we mean by regietheatre and just whether it serves the composer and the opera going public. There are some of these idiots who just serve themselves and appear to want to offend as many paying customers as possible. But there are directors that are full of imagination and breath new life into old operas. I think of Carson's production of Falstaff which I greatly enjoyed set in Elizabeth II England and also his production of Rinaldo which is completely re-imagined as dream. Not what Handel intended of course but then the opera public was very different in Handel's day. For one thing the lights were on and you played cards and chatted when you weren't interested. Hence directors have to have far more stagecraft to keep today's public amused. The main thing is that it is recognisable and entertaining.


I must apologize, on behalf of fellow Australians, for the execrable Barry Kosky and his hideous Regietheater productions. Wouldn't want to fall foul of those knuckle dusters either!!


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I am not sure when, but I voted "I don't like nor dislike it." For me, some productions work and some crash due to the weight of the director's vision.

However, I have limited experience with Regietheater in opera. The closest I have come to actually seeing a non-traditional production of opera are the DVDs of Robert Wilson's productions of *Debussy*'s _Pelléas et Mélisande_ and *Monteverdi*'s _L'Orfeo_ - and in both cases I enjoyed what I saw and heard.

I have heard of productions of operas using what I would consider outlandish stage sets or costumes and removing the opera from its conceived locale and time - which are questionable taste-wise, IMO, and could be a disservice to the work.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

That space Bohéme seems like a really wtf idea. I could imagine many operas in space - Dutchman, Billy Budd, Tristan (but not in spacesuits, more with cool sci-fi haute couture and amazing nebula backdrops) - but Bohéme? 

Rodolfo: I think Mimi is a bit sus. We should vote her out.
Marcello: Dude just tell her the truth. Why are you like this.


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2020)

I'm generally open to new staging ideas. Personally, however, it's important to me that a director doesn't just want to provoke so that his name is in the newspaper, but that he's actually interested in the play and has new ideas.

With many operas, it's difficult if you don't modernize them a little, because today's audience has different viewing habits, and society, the image of women, etc. is also completely different than it was 200 years ago, for example. Things that were normal then make people shake their heads today. Things that were scary back then cause laughter today.

I like to compare the subject to literary adaptations.

A nice example comes from one of my favorite films, _Bram Stoker's Dracula_ from 1992. In Stoker's novel, written in the 1890s and set in Victorian London, Lucy, who fits the ideal image of a Victorian woman (innocent, chaste, religious and conformist), transforms into a vampire who is very sensual and seductive, thus frightening the men (and the Victorian reader).

However, the director of the film knew that a self-confident, lascivious vampire woman would no longer frighten or repel a 1992 audience, so in order to implement Stoker's intention to creep out the recipient of this scene, he modernized it. In his version, Lucy seems more like a grotesque clown, like a reptile. The creepy thing is that she succeeds in her attempt at seduction, despite her sinister appearance!
In other words, the effect the author wanted to achieve was achieved by adapting it to the changed viewing habits of a modern audience.

For me, faithfulness to a work means first and foremost that the effect a work was intended to achieve is still achieved today.

And that's how I see it with operas, too.
I fully understand, for example, when a director dispenses with lavish costumes and sets in _Le nozze di Figaro_ so that today's audiences, who no longer suffer from the arbitrariness, exploitation and wastefulness of the aristocracy, do not rave about this décor and romanticize this period and the plot.
One always reads in the reviews of such "classical" productions how beautiful the sets and the costumes were - but not about the fact that this work deals with very serious issues.

Greetings,
Natural Horn


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