# String quartets - why are they harder to get into?



## TheCoctor

I hope this is the right place to raise this:
I usually listen to chamber music which includes a piano (duos, trios, quartets, quintets - everything goes). I figured it's time to start diving into the pure strings formats - mainly the string quartet.
But for some reason I find this format the hardest to get into.
I don't feel as attracted and involved in piano-less chamber music as much as I do with music ensembles that have a piano. 
It's not a size issue, as I don't have any problems with small ensembles. 
It's something about the overall sound of the string quartet that feel dull and even "boring" and simply doesn't give me that kick that I get from small ensembles with piano.

What am I missing? Has anyone else encountered that issue when starting with string quartets?
Any idea to specific works that might cause me to dive into this format ?


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## Art Rock

Try a few of these first:

Haydn - String quartet op.76.3 'Emperor'
Schubert - String quartet 'Death and the Maiden'
Dvorak - String quartet 12 'American'
Ravel - String quartet 
Shostakovich - String quartet 8

On purpose I kept the list short. If you find nothing to enjoy here, I guess the genre is simply not for you. If you do, branch out to the likes of Mozart, Beethoven, Debussy, Zemlinsky, Simpson, to name a few.

Personally I love the genre and I think for many composers it represents the pinnacle of their chamber music.


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## TheCoctor

Thanks ! 
I'll definitely check them out.


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## Merl

I agree with Art Rock. These days string quartets have overtaken orchestral music as my favourite genre in classical music
Try any from AR's list plus...

Schubert - SQ13 Rosamunde & SQ15 D887
Mendelssohn - SQ6
Beethoven - SQ9 op.59 Rasumovsky 3
Dvorak - SQ13
Borodin - SQ2
Grieg - SQ op.27

If you draw a blank with both mine and Art Rock's suggestions then maybe you just don't like string quartets! You could also try string quintets too (Dvorak's op.77 and Schubert's D956 'Cello' quintet).


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## Kreisler jr

I never experienced this. Sure, I also started mostly with orchestral music but within 2 years of listening to classical as a teenager I was interested in string quartets (it took me far longer to get into solo keyboard music, except for some warhorses like Appassionata or Hungarian Rhapsodies). I can understand that "in theory" pure string sound is experienced as "thin" or "monochrome" but it was never my experience.
Art Rock named most of the popular string quartets; one could add Debussy's (usually coupled with Ravel anyway) and maybe Mozart's "Hunt" K 458 and "Dissonance" K 465. The most popular Beethoven quartets are two of my least favorites, op.18/4 c minor and 59/3 C major, so I hesitate to recommend them. My slightly unconventional Beethoven recommendation would be the last string quartet op.135.


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## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> I never experienced this. Sure, I also started mostly with orchestral music but within 2 years of listening to classical as a teenager I was interested in string quartets (it took me far longer to get into solo keyboard music, except for some warhorses like Appassionata or Hungarian Rhapsodies). I can understand that "in theory" pure string sound is experienced as "thin" or "monochrome" but it was never my experience.
> Art Rock named most of the popular string quartets; one could add Debussy's (usually coupled with Ravel anyway) and maybe Mozart's "Hunt" K 458 and "Dissonance" K 465. *The most popular Beethoven quartets are two of my least favorites, op.18/4 c minor and 59/3 C major, so I hesitate to recommend them. My slightly unconventional Beethoven recommendation would be the last string quartet op.135.*


I recommended Razumovsky 3 as most people find it easier to get into than many of the others, initially. I agree that the op.135 is a wonderful quartet but my favourite has always been the op.95 Serioso. Interesting that we all have our personal Beethoven quartet favourites, Kreisler.


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## Kreisler jr

op.135 is not my absolute favorite, but one I consider comparably accessible to the popular op.59/3. In any case, unless one is already a big fan of Beethoven's orchestral music, I'd not recommend his quartets as first priority for people struggling with the genre.


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## golfer72

I kind on agree with you on the String quartet genre. I much prefer solo piano, and orchestral. I do like string quartets though not as much. I actually like Beethovens Op 18 quartets quite a bit


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## SanAntone

String quartets have been my favorite genre of Classical music from very early on. Haydn, Beethoven, Bartok, Shostakovich, Carter - and those cycles are just the major works. All I can tell you if you have trouble with the SQ, then just listen to the music that is easier for you, because there is nothing within the SQ form itself which is the problem. 

Why do I like SQ so much? I love counterpoint, I love the way each instrument is similar to a character in a play - I love the transparent texture. I vastly prefer SQs to symphonic music because of these qualities.


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## Marc

If possible... try to visit a live concert of a string quartet (and/or quintet).
It's great to both listen and watch, and check out the interaction(s).

Who knows, it might 'pump up' your enthusiasm for the genre.


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## Marc

SanAntone said:


> String quartets have been my favorite genre of Classical music from very early on. Haydn, Beethoven, Bartok, Shostakovich, Carter - and those cycles are just the major works. All I can tell you if you have trouble with the SQ, then just listen to the music that is easier for you, because there is nothing within the SQ form itself which is the problem.
> 
> Why do I like SQ so much? I love counterpoint, I love the way each instrument is similar to a character in a play - I love the transparent texture. I vastly prefer SQs to symphonic music because of these qualities.


I like those qualitites too, but I don't mind hearing other instruments... so I can't say which genre I exactly prefer.

Mind you, listening to f.i. Haydn's opus 9 and 17 is already a great experience, even though in his early quartets the first violin mostly had the leading (almost soloistic) role. Small concertos for solo violin and string trio.


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## HerbertNorman

I had the same problem and it has taken me time. But nowadays I listen to a lot of chamber music and especially String quartets . Most recently those by Béla Bartók . Those Art Rock has summed up I would recommend too , along with maybe Claude Debussy's string quartet. 
When I started listening to SQs , Schubert's Death and the Maiden SQ was my favourite and got me to listen to more SQs , especially those by Beethoven , Dvorak , Mendelssohn,...
I got into classical music with orchestral works and solo piano. But now I tend to listen to chamber music just as much.


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## HerbertNorman

Marc said:


> If possible... try to visit a live concert of a string quartet (and/or quintet).
> It's great to both listen and watch, and check out the interaction(s).
> 
> Who knows, it might 'pump up' your enthusiasm for the genre.


I second this ! I saw the Hagen Quartet playing Dvorak's American SQ when I was 21 years old and it impressed me so much I bought their CD with the Dvorak and Kodaly SQs on it.


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## Marc

HerbertNorman said:


> I second this ! I saw the Hagen Quartet playing Dvorak's American SQ when I was 21 years old and it impressed me so much I bought their CD with the Dvorak and Kodaly SQs on it.


Saw and heard Hagen too. Haydn and Brahms. Great ensemble playing.

But, long long time ago, my first string quartet (AND quintet) concert was the (former?) Colorado Quartet with Shauna Rolston (cello) doing a Schubert program. It's over 30 years ago and I have to admit that those 5 young ladies managed very well to keep me concentrated.


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## maestro267

I felt the same as the OP about string quartets (and most chamber music) until last year. There's only so much you can do timbre-wise with four stringed instruments, especially when it's exactly the same combination 99% of the time. Until I learnt to approach them differently to symphonies and orchestral music. I see them now as a way into a more intimate view of the composer, a more private statement vs the grand public statement of symphonies. And also to see the music as a conversation between a small group of friends.


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## TheCoctor

Thank you all. This is very helpful. 
I’m already immersing myself in Hayden and Schubert quartets that you recommended.


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## Marc

Some quartets really did hit me in the diaphragm.

Dvorak's 'American' string quartet, already recommended by Art Rock, is a great example of a romantic melodic melanocholic party (as weird as it sounds, but that's what I hear and why I love it ).


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## ORigel

Merl said:


> I recommended Razumovsky 3 as most people find it easier to get into than many of the others, initially. I agree that the op.135 is a wonderful quartet but my favourite has always been the op.95 Serioso. Interesting that we all have our personal Beethoven quartet favourites, Kreisler.


Out of Beethoven's late quartets, I would reccommend Opus 127, Opus 130/2, Opus 131/5, and Opus 133 (Grosse Fuge) to beginners. But really, beginners should start with the earlier quartets.


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## ORigel

TheCoctor said:


> Thank you all. This is very helpful.
> I'm already immersing myself in Hayden and Schubert quartets that you recommended.


If you love the symphonies of Bruckner, you should try Schubert's String Quartet no. 15.


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## Merl

I recommended an op59 quartet as that's where I started with SQs and that might be unconventional. The first SQ performances I bought were Beethoven complete op59s. There's a story behind it. I used to play football with a lad who turned up at the local park quite often (he didn't go to our school). One day he invited me round to his house (he lived opposite the park) and while I was there I could hear violin music coming from the cellar. When I asked my mate he explained that his dad was practising and he played in the Halle Orchestra (under Loughran - I've mentioned him before on here). I met dad later and he was a really friendly, smiley bloke. When I called round for my mate the next day his dad was practising the same piece of music downstairs. When he came up I asked him what it was and he told me it was Beethoven, one of the "Razumovsky quartets". Of course I was about 10 at the time so it meant nothing to me but I remembered it years later and bought it in my late teens, as it was in a bargain bin at Yanks Records in Manchester. A week later I bought a copy of Dvorak's American Quartet from the same shop as it was in the 3-for-£1 section. I loved both from the off. Although I've since got rid of both (I sold the Beethoven for twice as much as I paid for it) these are the two recordings I first owned














.


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## Enthusiast

I also had difficulty with string quartets (except for a few of Beethoven's) for years. I think it was about the lack of variety in the sounds that the interacting solo instruments make. Add a piano or a clarinet and I was instantly happy. And, strangely, I always loved music for larger string ensembles. These days I am over that. But it was the second most difficult Romantic and Modern genre for me to crack (lieder was the first most difficult but that's in the past now too).


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## Kreisler jr

While I never had such problems with the sound I can to some extent understand that people find it sometimes unpleasant or monochrome (although I am bit puzzled why so few find piano solo "monochrome"), I think one reason is that many string quartets really are comparably difficult music. At least compared to e.g. the Tchaikovsky string serenade which might be one reason why string orchestra pieces are not unpopular.

There are obvious exceptions, such as Dvorak's "American" but I think it is generally true, at least for today's standard repertoire of works since ca. 1780. E.g. Mozart's six quartets dedicated to Haydn are (with the possible exception of the "Hunt") among his most ambitious and complex works. Or Beethoven's op.18 is often far stranger and more "awkward" than stuff like the trios op.1 or the Pathetique sonata.


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## Selby

I'm really interested in the OP's experience. It is almost inverse to mine. My favorite genres are solo piano followed by string ensembles. I've struggled for years trying to love piano chamber music and eventually gave up trying. There is something about the combination of the piano with the viols that I have an aversion to. Subjective experience is so interesting!


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## TheCoctor

Well, I have good news. 
After a few weeks on a severe string quartets diet, I can really enjoy some of them.


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## TheCoctor

Well, I have good news. 
After a few weeks on a severe string quartets diet, I can really enjoy some of them. 
It turns out (and this is no big surprise) that there are huge differences between the recordings of different quartets and some of them sound terrific, very involving, very dynamically varied while other groups execute the music in a dull, one dimensional way that bores me to death. 
Being able to hear many recordings and decide which one does it for me proved to be crucial in my process. I am really having fun exploring and getting to know more music (currently still from the list you generously provided) and more combos.


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## Merl

TheCoctor said:


> Well, I have good news.
> After a few weeks on a severe string quartets diet, I can really enjoy some of them.
> It turns out (and this is no big surprise) that there are huge differences between the recordings of different quartets and some of them sound terrific, very involving, very dynamically varied while other groups execute the music in a dull, one dimensional way that bores me to death.
> Being able to hear many recordings and decide which one does it for me proved to be crucial in my process. I am really having fun exploring and getting to know more music (currently still from the list you generously provided) and more combos.


So true and you'll obviously find playing styles and sound that work for you. Just a word of warning. Don't expect EVERY recording by Quartet X to be the best and EVERY recording by Quartet Y to be crap. I see that sort of silly pigeonholing of quartet ensembles amongst critics and particularly posters on here all the time. And yes, whilst there are some ensembles that can _usually_ be relied on to knock out at least recommendable performances, even they produce the odd turkey. Just keep listening, keep an open mind and find specific recordings that resonate with you. Apologies for going on but I find fixed mindsets annoying and hate fanboyism. I find it pathetic.


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## Distorto

I was interested to find this thread because I have the same difficulty in enjoying string quartets. I wonder whether it’s more likely to be felt by someone who like me has discovered classical music after being immersed in other types of music. I think in pretty much any other tradition, when more than one instrument is involved there is some form of percussion adding rhythmic drive and interest. A piano can’t help but do that, being partly a percussion instrument.

I’m working on it! Most successfully with Beethoven op. 135 and the op. 18s, and Schubert, as I love their music anyway. But I still find it easier to love their piano sonatas and orchestral music.


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## hammeredklavier

The String Quartet SOUND


Waehnen said:


> It is somewhat embarrassing to admit that this piercing sound has been the main reason for me to some extent dislike the string quartet as a genre.


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## Judas Priest Fan

I have only been listening to CM for a few years now, but I have always liked string quartets.

They are, for me, music at its purest, just 4 instruments, jamming away.


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## starthrower

I actually prefer the string quartet format to chamber music with piano. My problem is that I've found just a small number of works that I truly love.


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## wormcycle

TheCoctor said:


> But for some reason I find this format the hardest to get into.
> I don't feel as attracted and involved in piano-less chamber music as much as I do with music ensembles that have a piano.


I think that it is not a form that is hard for you to get into but, as you said, it may be just the absence of piano. Preference of certain instruments is a very powerful driver, in my view, in our selection of music. For me string quartet is definitely the most attractive form of chamber music but that's not the point.
I am very fond of the sound of cello. I prefer the string quintets with two cellos, to more standard setting of two violins, two violas and cello. I am aware that I am attracted to the recordings where the cello track is well played and well recorded even if overall performance is slightly less appealing.
What I would try is to try to listen to any string quintet with two cellos, only because the sound is richer and fuller, maybe you like it more. The next step, going "back" to string quartet may be easier. of course I have no idea what I am talking about , but what if it works?
Here is the list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_quintet#List_of_cello_quintets but for some of those it is difficult to find even a single recording.
Of course the most popular is Schubert's C major.


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## Kreisler jr

starthrower said:


> I actually prefer the string quartet format to chamber music with piano. My problem is that I've found just a small number of works that I truly love.


Does the second sentence refer to string quartets or to works in general?
For me the two most attractive features are not the "pure sound" but that composers I like "anyway" (with their other works, for none of them was a string quartet among the first music I encountered) wrote considerable numbers of great string quartets (Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Dvorak, Bartok, Shostakovich etc.) and that, more than the symphony, the violin sonata or others, the string quartet continued as a central genre in the 20th and 21st century. The concerto does as well (and has another 60 years or so earlier than SQ) but for me there are far fewer great concerti than great string quartets.


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## starthrower

It refers to string quartets.


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## juliante

It makes a difference if you are listening on a good stereo with good source quality - richer tones of the cello, better separation etc makes for wonderful experiences in listening to string chamber music.


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## Merl

juliante said:


> It makes a difference if you are listening on a good stereo with good source quality - richer tones of the cello, better separation etc makes for wonderful experiences in listening to string chamber music.


I agree, Juliante. When there's no one in the house but me, and the neighbours are out too, I love to get a really great quality recording, whack up the volume to 11 and absorb those lovely, deep cello lines. There are many stunning-sounding and exhilarating SQ recordings out there, these days.


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## starthrower

I'm exploring the Johnston quartets. I love the dark, dissonant sounds. I know this can be a turn off for some listeners but Johnston's pieces maintain a warmth and attractiveness despite the qualities I mentioned. At least for me they do.


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## MarkW

It's already been said, but go to a live SQ concert. Makes a world of difference.


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## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> I agree, Juliante. When there's no one in the house but me, and the neighbours are out too, I love to get a really great quality recording, whack up the volume to 11 and absorb those lovely, deep cello lines. There are many stunning-sounding and exhilarating SQ recordings out there, these days.


Perhaps their is a niche for electric string quartets?


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## Wigmar

Merl said:


> I recommended Razumovsky 3 as most people find it easier to get into than many of the others, initially. I agree that the op.135 is a wonderful quartet but my favourite has always been the op.95 Serioso. Interesting that we all have our personal Beethoven quartet favourites, Kreisler.


I have a favourite in op 59:1 performed by Quartetto Italiano


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## MatthewWeflen

I echo Merl and Juliante on sound quality. String quartets more than most live or die on how well you can hear the resonance and inner voice of each instrument.

As far as material, I recommend Schubert and Dvorak to start. Their quartets are endlessly listenable, complex, and involving. Two very easy recommendations are the Brilliant Classics sets of each: by Diogenes Quartet for Schubert and by Stamitz Quartet for Dvorak.


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## Waehnen

My advice:

- Find the compositions that are great and expressive despite being string quartets

- Find the composers for whom the string quartet offered a natural and appropriate way of expression

- Try to analyse what kind of string quartet sound you like and dislike — only then to consciously avoid the sound you dislike. Trust the community when they tell you there sure are MOST PLEASANT string quartet sounds recorded.

- Recognize and avoid superficial string quartet music, born out of the establishment of the genre, resulting in predictable 4-part soprano-alto-tenor-bass textures.

- Try to find joy and relaxation in the fact that like in solo piano and other solo instrument music, the tone colours do not vary too much, directing the focus of the music to a specific, non orchestral direction. No need to wait for the next effect of interesting instrumental combination, the composers cannot hide behind the circus here.


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## Kreisler jr

Waehnen said:


> - Find the compositions that are great and expressive despite being string quartets


Rather get rid of the idea that there should be a "despite" (why not "because"). Composers usually do not write quartets as "second best" or because they don't have enough time for a "full symphony" or whatever.



> - Find the composers for whom the string quartet offered a natural and appropriate way of expression
> 
> - Recognize and avoid superficial string quartet music, born out of the establishment of the genre, resulting in predictable 4-part soprano-alto-tenor-bass textures.


I cannot think of many standard repertoire quartets that fall under either. In the former category one could think of Schubert but his last three quartets are nevertheless masterpieces and highly expressive (and the d minor D 810 probably the most popular quartet of all). And maybe some isolated pieces not really in the core repertoire (Franck, Grieg, Wolf). 
There are probably dozens of works by minor composers of juvenilia in the second category but they are not among the ~50 core pieces from Haydn to Shostakovich.


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## Waehnen

Kreisler jr said:


> Rather get rid of the idea that there should be a "despite" (why not "because"). Composers usually do not write quartets as "second best" or because they don't have enough time for a "full symphony" or whatever.


For example the D Major 'Pastoral' Piano Sonata op. 28 by Beethoven is great music despite being written for the piano. I can easily picture it as a string trio, string quartet, string quintet, piano trio, violin sonata, clarinet sonata, viola sonata, cello sonata or even a symphony. It is great music despite it´s genre. I am sure you get what I mean. 




Kreisler jr said:


> I cannot think of many standard repertoire quartets that fall under either. In the former category one could think of Schubert but his last three quartets are nevertheless masterpieces and highly expressive (and the d minor D 810 probably the most popular quartet of all). And maybe some isolated pieces not really in the core repertoire (Franck, Grieg, Wolf).
> There are probably dozens of works by minor composers of juvenilia in the second category but they are not among the ~50 core pieces from Haydn to Shostakovich.


Please clarify in which way you cannot think of many standard repertoire quartets for whose composers the string quartet offered a natural and appropriate way of expression. I can think of many such composers for whom the string quartet was most suitable.

Quite often the principles on which I conduct my exploration of the repertoire and my listening experiences are rather general. If possible, I avoid specifically pointing certain composers or compositions. Nevertheless, the 5 principles I have listed have helped me to find much joy in the string quartet genre. It kind of allows me to move past the stuff I find problematic with a clear conscience and necessary swiftness. No need to bang my head against the wall, right? Everybody wins!

There are people who do not dislike string quartets elaborating on these forever-gestures

Violin I: *TAT-TAT-TAAAA...*
___________Violin II: *TAT-TAT-TAAAA...*
__________________________Viola: *TAT-TAT-TAAAA...*
______________________________________Cello: *TAT-TAT-TAA...*

but I am not one of them!


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> There are probably dozens of works by minor composers of juvenilia in the second category but they are not among the ~50 core pieces from Haydn to Shostakovich.


We don't know how many undiscovered works by obscure composers out there belong in the first category either. Beecke, for instance, - only 4 out of his 17 quartets have been recorded (and also, composers who didn't have their music printed tended to be forgotten.)


hammeredklavier said:


> in my subjective view, it's a bit better to also give some attention to guys like Franz Ignaz von Beecke (1733~1803):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> string quartet in C (cir. 1780)


String Quartet in G Major, M. 9: I. Allegro moderato (link) / II. Adagio (link) / III. Menuetto scherzando (link) / IV. Presto (link)
String Quartet in G Major, M. 11: I. Arioso sotto voce - Allegro (link) / II. Menuetto (link) / III. Adagio ma non troppo (link) / IV. Presto (link)
String Quartet in B-Flat Major, M. 16: I. Allegro un poco moderato (link) / II. Adagio sotto voce (link) / III. Allegretto (link)


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## Waehnen

Kreisler jr said:


> Rather get rid of the idea that there should be a "despite" (why not "because"). Composers usually do not write quartets as "second best" or because they don't have enough time for a "full symphony" or whatever.


Just letting you know that once I have expanded my collection of string quartets and gotten over the thought of the SQ sound being too piercing for my ears (ABQ can be piercing, but not all that many others), I no longer use the word despite. It is a wonderful genre and ensemble and I value it as much as string quintets nowadays.


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## Kreisler jr

I am not sure if there was a misunderstanding further above. 
In any case I think that for composers like Haydn, Boccherini, Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Bartok, Shostakovich and a few others the string quartet was as "natural" a form of expression as any other form or ensemble, i.e. that didn't need to restrict or bend themselves out of shape to write a string quartet rather than a symphony or piano sonata or trio or whatever. 

I have some doubts about the "naturalness" in the case of Schubert, Schumann, Brahms and Dvorak although all of them wrote quartets I like immensely and that do not sound awkward to me (as a layman who cannot play any string instrument). The early Schubert quartets are very early and seem a bit clumsy with lots of simple accompaniment but this was because he was mostly writing for his own family or friends who were not virtuoso players and he just learning his trade. I also find some passages apparently striving for quasi-orchestral sound as in Schubert's late G major and IIRC also in Dvorak's op.106 borderline cases but they are not as "unidiomatic" as e.g. some things in the Franck quartet. This is not a problem per se but it might be an indication that a composer tried to do something not ideally suited for quartet.

I suspect that this is mostly a question of skill. Debussy, Ravel, Bartok and others who wrote very colorful orchestral music could nevertheless use the capabilities of string quartets perfectly without trying an exaggerated "big sound".


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