# Béla Bartók



## msegers

Béla Bartók lifted European music into the twentieth century... by standing on ancient foundations. He created a "modern" sound based on studies of music that predated the mainstream of European musical development. With a solid intellectual and theoretical base, he made music that touches the heart and soul... and why didn't he have a guestbook sooner? Bartók taught me how to listen to music, so I'm glad that in this very small way, I can return the favor.


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## Zombo

The piano concertos are amongst my favourites.


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## confuoco

Zombo said:


> The piano concertos are amongst my favourites.


I like Piano concerto No. 3 the most, and generally I love his slow piano concerto movements. Among my other beloved works are Concerto for Orchestra, Miraculous Mandarine and Violin concerto No. 2...I don't know why, but short orchestral introduction of this concerto impressed me very much, it is very simple, but sooo magical, with harp ostinato and pizzicato strings. A had to listen to this introduction again and again. And it is fascinating how Bartók use this short motif in developement of the first movement. The second movement as variations on fragile, folk-like thema is also very beautiful.


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## Habib

*Bartok the symphonist*

So much of what he wrote sounds like a symphony (think of the Concerto for Orchestra or the Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta) yet he hated using this title for some reason. Maybe he wanted to get away from the Germanic tradition. Whatever the reason notwithstanding this those works are definitely in the same league as Shostakovich's symphonies. Another great work is the Divertimento for Strings, a homage to the old classical form. He wasn't an iconoclast as some people think, he preferred to build upon rather than completely smash the traditions of classical music.


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## Lang

I love the gentle, life-enhancing qualities of the third piano concerto, and cannot reconcile this with the fact that he wrote it while he was dying.


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## msegers

I hadn't checked in on this thread (which I had started) in a while. Thanks for all the comments. *Habib*, I especially enjoyed your comments on traditions and word choice. And *confuoco*, I can't remember when or even if I had ever heard the second violin concerto, a real treasure. *Zombo*, I too cherish the piano concertos, and *Lang*, I did not know that sad fact about the third. That adds an extra dimension to it for me.


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## Lang

Yes, in point of fact he didn't quite complete it, and the last 10 bars or so were orchestrated by a pupil.


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## JTech82

Concerto For Orchestra and Wooden Prince are by far the best pieces Bartok every wrote in my opinon.

Wooden Prince by Pierre Boulez with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra is the best version and Concerto For Orchestra was the best done by Fritz Reiner with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Just my two cents.


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## Bach

the best things Bartok ever wrote are his string quartets. Best quartets since Beethoven.


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## msegers

Now, *Bach*, you give me a whole new Bartók field to explore. Thanks.


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## Bach

Oh, if you haven't heard them then prepare for a journey. They're very different to his orchestral music - far more intimate and intense but unique and among the greatest 20th century compositions.


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## JTech82

Bach said:


> Oh, if you haven't heard them then prepare for a journey. They're very different to his orchestral music - far more intimate and intense but unique and among the greatest 20th century compositions.


In his opinion, which that within itself, isn't saying much.


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## Bach

I've got credentials coming out of my bloody ears mate - my opinion is golden. 

Hope you enjoy the quartets, msegers!


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## xJuanx

Bach said:


> the best things Bartok ever wrote are his string quartets. Best quartets since Beethoven.


I agree with this! His quartets are great. I love the first and the second one; and I've heard Végh Quartet is the best option to get, although I have them by the Juilliard Quartet that also sounds splendid.


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## Sid James

I just got the Decca 2 cd set of Ansermet conducting Bartok with the Suisse Romande & it is superb. Still sounds good, despite the fact that it was recorded in the 1950s. I mean the SR are by no means as polished as other orchestras might be, but Ansermet brings out of them playing which is very committed and gutsy. I have listened to a number of versions of the _Concerto for Orchestra_, and this is the best version I have heard. A raw, mysteriouis and turbulent reading. Another highlight is the _Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta_. Ansermet speeds it up, so it is very compelling.

These recordings are a surprise, as Ansermet is better known for his Debussy, Ravel and Stravinsky interpretations. I recommend it to anyone and it's also a good introduction to Bartok's music, with the above two works as well as the _Dance Suite_, _Two Portraits_, _Romanian Folk Dances _and _Piano Concerto No. 3_ (with Julius Katchen). It is also at budget price, so very affordable.


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## JTech82

If you like Bartok, then I advise each and every one of you to check out Pierre Boulez's interpretation of "The Wooden Prince" on DG. It's a true highlight in his career.


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## JTech82

Bartok is just such an amazing composer. He's definitely influenced me and is in my top list of favorite composers.

I recently bought Ivan Fischer and the Budapest Festival Orchestra's entire recordings of his orchestral music. I'm looking forward to hearing it because Fischer has recorded some not so well known compositions by Bartok.










I also have all of Pierre Boulez's readings of Bartok's music on Deutsche Grammophon, which are also amazing and stand as a stark contrast with Fischer's approach. It's important to remember that not all of Bartok's music is supposed to be brutal sounding as Boulez would have you to believe. As I mentioned in above posting, Boulez does do a fantastic job with "The Wooden Prince," but his "Miraculous Mandarin" is a little over-the-top.


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## Sid James

I really like the pieces commissioned by the Swiss conductor *Paul Sacher *during the '30s by Bartok (_Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta; Divertimento for Strings_). They are some of the best chamber works written at that time. For me, they reflect the turbulence and uncertainty of the time, Europe on the brink of war and destruction of everything. There is a deep uncertainty and unease in these works, particularly the 3rd movt. of the _Music_ (you just sense something horrible is about to happen, before that devastating climax) & the 2nd movt. of the _Divertimento_, where the music is on the brink of totally disintegrating. No wonder the former was used by Kubrick in _The Shining_. The upbeat finales of both works attest, however, that Bartok was an optimist. Here, the band plays together, suggesting that if humanity combines, it can overcome all of these terrible odds and setbacks.

Sacher seemed to draw out the best from composers in his many commissions. Not only did he commission a significant concerto from Martinu (forget exactly which one), but also the bittersweet _Metamorphosen_ by Richard Strauss, a work which actually looks back on the devastation wrought by WWII.

I am to hear the Bartok _Music_ & the Strauss performed by the Australian Chamber Orchestra here in Sydney in August. Can't wait!


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## Lisztfreak

I've always far preferred the first two piano concertos to the third. The third is too conservative for Bartók. My favourite is the second one, although the sheer brutality and elementality of the first are even more fascinating.


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## Bach

Jayteck, do you like Bartok's string quartets?


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## Herzeleide

Bach said:


> Jayteck, do you like Bartok's string quartets?


Obviously he doesn't.

Even if the notes and music itself are wonderful, if the music doesn't have that big orchestral sound... 

Talk about philistinism...


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## Bach

It's funny, I'm often put off by orchestral music (post Brahms in particular) for a silly fear of pretense and cinematicism (which I profoundly dislike) and prefer the less public expression heard in chamber music.


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## JTech82

Herzeleide said:


> Obviously he doesn't.
> 
> Even if the notes and music itself are wonderful, if the music doesn't have that big orchestral sound...
> 
> Talk about philistinism...


I like what I like Herzeleide and if you're going to fault for enjoying classical music, then I guess we can start faulting you as well. 

At least I have the credentials to evaluate music, what are your primary and secondary instruments? Who do you study composition under? What college and/or conservatory do you attend?


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## Bach

Shall I take that as a 'no' in response to the quartets?

Oh, and he's never going to spill, but if I had do guess, I'd say Cambridge undergrad, piano and guitar as instruments. Don't ask why.


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## msegers

Great timing that you'd post in this thread today, *Bach*. Some weeks ago, you gave me the best advice I have ever had about music - to listen to Bartók's string quartets. Much as I wanted to gorge my ears on them, once I started, I felt that I'd appreciate them better to spread them out, and last night, I listened to the last one, the fifth (somehow got the fifth and sixth out of order). Migawd, what an experience. I'll certainly be returning to them. Thanks.


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## Bach

It means a lot to me that I made such a difference. They are wonderful.


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## handlebar

I recently found the Bartok plays Bartok set (Hungaroton)and it is a wonderful addition to any collection. 
They are tough to find used or new. 

Jim


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## Sid James

Lisztfreak said:


> I've always far preferred the first two piano concertos to the third. The third is too conservative for Bartók. My favourite is the second one, although the sheer brutality and elementality of the first are even more fascinating.


I agree with this, but if the performance of the 3rd is any good, you'll be bound to enjoy it anyway. I really like how, in the first two piano concertos, Bartok uses the instrument in a percussive way. & his night music episodes (especially in the 1st) are so dark, mysterious and moody. It really is some of the most raw, elemental music you'll ever hear.

I suppose with his late works, like the _*Piano Concerto No.3, Concerto for Orchestra & Viola Concerto*_, Bartok was trying to write music that is more accessible. They're still in his unique style, with influences of Hungarian folk music, but they are way less modernistic and (in a way) brutal than say, the other two piano concertos, the _*Miraculous Mandarin, the Divertimento for strings or Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta*_.

But I think how much you enjoy those later works hinges much on the quality of the performance. For example, I still have a tape of the piano concertos performed by Bulgarian performers, and this was excellent. So too the recently reissued 2 cd set of Ansermet's complete Decca recordings of Bartok. I recommend the latter to anyone who is interested in performances perhaps not from the best ensemble in the world, but gutsy, raw and committed nonetheless. & it's very inexpensive, as well...


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## Herzeleide

JTech82 said:


> what are your primary and secondary instruments?


Primary: ukulele. Secondary: tin whistle.



JTech82 said:


> Who do you study composition under?


Hucbald. Maybe Odo of Cluny next year.



JTech82 said:


> What college and/or conservatory do you attend?


The North-East-Western college for the musically inept.

Yours sincerely,

The Right Honourable Sir Herzeleide Hannibal Habeas Corpus Anderson K.G., K.P., H.T., P.C., K.C.B., M.P., J.P., M.B., D.S.O., S.O.D., M.F.H., M.R.I.A., B.L., Mus. Doc., P.L.G., F.T.C.D., F.R.U.I., F.R.C.P.I. and F.R.C.S.I.


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## JTech82

Bach said:


> Shall I take that as a 'no' in response to the quartets?
> 
> Oh, and he's never going to spill, but if I had do guess, I'd say Cambridge undergrad, piano and guitar as instruments. Don't ask why.


Oh sorry Bach, I'll have to check out the Bartok String Quartets. Any particular recording that you're fond of?

I'm not worried about Herzeleide. He's okay in my book. I think we just got off on a wrong footing is all. Much like you and I did in the beginning remember those glorious days?


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## Bach

They're forever chiseled into the eternal plunderous depths of my heart. 

The Tokyo String Quartet are fantastic. Do listen to them, I think they're Bartok's greatest achievement, and some of the essential works of twentieth century music. I would recommend starting with the fourth and then the fifth - the rest are up to you. The third is notoriously difficult to digest and might require a bit of deliberation.


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## JTech82

Bach said:


> They're forever chiseled into the eternal plunderous depths of my heart.
> 
> The Tokyo String Quartet are fantastic. Do listen to them, I think they're Bartok's greatest achievement, and some of the essential works of twentieth century music. I would recommend starting with the fourth and then the fifth - the rest are up to you. The third is notoriously difficult to digest and might require a bit of deliberation.


Alright thanks Bach. I'll try them out. I've been looking at this one:










Any thoughts?


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## Bach

Perfect, do you know that date of recording?


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## JTech82

Bach said:


> Perfect, do you know that date of recording?


I believe it's from either 1989 or 1990.


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## handlebar

I have owned the Emerson Quartet set for many years and love it. They tend to be a bit pedestrian sometimes but i love their sound and the flow.

Jim


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## Bach

Ideal! My recommendation is still with the Tokyo set, but I'm sure Emerson are brilliant too. Alban Berg Quartet might be worth a look too - I have a recording of them playing No. 4 which is superb..


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## Herzeleide

My recording of Bartók's quartets is by the Alban Berg Quartet and it's excellent.


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## Guest

There's a new(ish) one out by the Belcea quartet, which I prefer even to the Takács quartet's set, which was my previous standard. If indeed I really had a standard. The Tokyo and Emerson are too fine for anyone to have one standard, I guess.* 

The Belcea is something special, though.

*And now I want to hear the Alban Berg Quartet's set, for sure.


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## Clancy

I have only heard his Piano concertos no.1-3, and his Violin concertos no.1 & 2, and I can't get my head around either of them, which is kind of frustrating since he sounds exactly like my kind of thing. I get the feeling I'm listening to the wrong thing here, and seeing Bach's recommendation about the string quartets I will try and hunt them up - but is that the best thing as an intro to his music?


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## Marco01

The Romanian Folk Dances and The Piano Concertos are my favourite Bartok pieces. In fact, The Piano Concertos was the second ever classical cd I bought, right after Stravinsky's Rite of Spring.

My favourite piece overall has to be the First Concerto, particularly the 3rd movement (Allegro Molto) ... it is pretty dissonant, brash, loud but with moments of distorted loveliness.

My favourite moment of the Second Concerto has to be the opening section to the 2nd movement. I had never heard anything like it before ... beautiful yet eerie interweaving of chords, lovely:






The 2nd movement in the Third Concerto (Adagio Religioso) is also a standout piece for me.


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## bdelykleon

The Quartets I have with ABQ, Emerson and Takacs. For me the Hungarians are the most dancing-like, folkish, exciting recordings, exactly as Bartók should be done.


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## Dim7

I just love the fourth quartet, especially the fourth and the fifth movement. Fourth and the third are good also, to the rest I haven't paid much attention yet. I like also piano concerto no. 1, the miraculous mandarin and the second violin concerto. Music for strings, percussion & celesta and Concerto for Orchestra are too mellow for my taste; i prefer harsh & dissonant bartok.


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## Mirror Image

Cmaj7 said:


> I just love the fourth quartet, especially the fourth and the fifth movement. Fourth and the third are good also, to the rest I haven't paid much attention yet. I like also piano concerto no. 1, the miraculous mandarin and the second violin concerto. Music for strings, percussion & celesta and Concerto for Orchestra are too mellow for my taste; i prefer harsh & dissonant bartok.


 Harsh and dissonant Bartok? Whatever you say. Bartok composed nothing but good music despite what you say.

"Concerto for Orchestra," "The Wooden Prince," all his concertos, "Divertimento," "Hungarian Sketches," etc. are all brilliant pieces of music.


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## Kuntster

Yes, the third piano concerto is amazing. 

I actually really like the first one. His rhythms are so exciting.


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## BuddhaBandit

One of my favorite compositions by Bartòk (besides the famous ones- Conc. for Orc., Music for SPC, Concerti, etc.) is his Mikrokosmos for solo piano. It's enlightening to see how each of the set develops from simple, unison melodies to intricate Hungarian dances.


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## Bach

Lol.. Mirror, have you bought that Bartok quartet set yet?

TET
SET 
YET

rimes boi


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## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> Lol.. Mirror, have you bought that Bartok quartet set yet?
> 
> TET
> SET
> YET
> 
> rimes boi


Actually, Bach, I haven't bought any Bartok in a while. It's still on my to-get list, so I'll get it eventually.


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## BuddhaBandit

Bach said:


> Lol.. Mirror, have you bought that Bartok quartet set yet?
> 
> TET
> SET
> YET
> 
> rimes boi


Not only does he wear a wig and shades, but he can rap, too. What a guy.


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## Clancy

Clancy said:


> I have only heard his Piano concertos no.1-3, and his Violin concertos no.1 & 2, and I can't get my head around either of them, which is kind of frustrating since he sounds exactly like my kind of thing. I get the feeling I'm listening to the wrong thing here, and seeing Bach's recommendation about the string quartets I will try and hunt them up - but is that the best thing as an intro to his music?


It's amazing what a bit of time and some exposure to some of his string quartets (as recommended here) can do; I went and had a re-listen to the piano & violin concertos and it was like it all fell into place. The third piano concerto is a bit of a departure, much more melodic but far from facile, quite delightful stuff - apparently he wrote it when he was dying, as a gift to his wife, and possibly deliberately made it to her tastes or so she could perform it live and thus earn some money. It's a wonderful tribute to the guy that when dying he basically thought of her first instead of himself.


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## xuantu

I got two great links for Bartok fans:

To learn more about Bartok's life and the significance of his works, you could visit http://www.zti.hu/bartok/exhibition/main.htm ;

to learn more about interpreting Bartok's music and the new complete series on _Hungaroton_, visit http://www.bartokujsorozat.hu/english.asp?id=1.

But of course, these are mainly Hungarian perspectives.


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## Sid James

I just acquired the Alban Berg Quartet set of Bartok's String Quartets. It seems that he started off with works of immense complexity (Nos. 1-3), then wrote two that are palindromic (4,5), and the last one very monothematic (6). I have come to these quartets after listening to works in the genre by composers like Berg, Janacek, Carter, Lutoslawski & Ligeti. I can hear how Bartok influenced the last three very much. By comparison, Bartok sounds just as radical as any of them, which is surprising since he wrote the first quartet in the 1900's.

I really like _No. 6_, which explores one theme at the beginning of movements 1-3, but then devotes the whole of movement 4 to the theme only. That last movement is one of the most haunting things that he wrote, slow & mysterious, the ending kind of leaves you up in the air. I look forward to listening to these more, and maybe "understanding" the more difficult ones later...


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## SPR

I have Bartok's SQ's (1-6) by Emerson String Quartet. This one:








from: http://www2.deutschegrammophon.com/webseries/?ID=grandprix&PRODUCT_NR=4776322

I find these very hard to 'get' or appreciate. Im trying. I think the Emerson quartet is fabulous... but the music...... ah me. Even just getting through SQ #1 in A minor is not easy.. the 3rd movement reminds me of something out of an alfred hitchcock movie. (dont kill me.. its just what came to mind)

Dont know if all of Bartoks work is like this or if there is anything more 'accessible'.


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## Sebastien Melmoth

SPR said:


> _Don't know if all of Bartok's work is like this or if there is anything more 'accessible'._


I'm with you there, SPR: I too have the Emerson Bartók Quartets set, and I never listen to it. I used to know the old Juiliard Bartók Quartet cycle on LP and never 'got' them either.

Can anyone enlighten me on Bartók? He's recognized as one of the greatest of 20th Century composers, but I wonder...

What is his main feature?--Eastern European folk elements?

His music seems all over the place without an unifying style: this I dislike.

Can anyone talk about his *Violin Sonatas* (a favourite genre)?

Was this guy really any good?


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## Argus

Sebastien Melmoth said:


> I'm with you there, SPR: I too have the Emerson Bartók Quartets set, and I never listen to it. I used to know the old Juiliard Bartók Quartet cycle on LP and never 'got' them either.


I'm not a fan of the string quartet genre in general, yet I think all of Bartoks quartets are either excellent or pretty bloody good.

I haven't heard his violin sonata's but I have heard the violin concerto's and wasn't really a fan.(I fell asleep during one). I prefered the viola concerto. All of his piano concerto's were more to my liking, however. Plus the famous Concerto for Orchestra and Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta along with the Miraculous Mandarin are all uniformly impressive.

If you don't like any of that, your ears must be broken. I suggest a healthy dose of Stockhausen to be administered aurally, thrice daily to recalibrate your tympanic membrane.


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## Sebastien Melmoth

Argus said:


> _Suggest a healthy dose of Stockhausen to be administered aurally, thrice daily to recalibrate your tympanic membrane._


Gaak!

Isn't that a case of the cure being worse than the ailment?


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## Argus

Sebastien Melmoth said:


> Gaak!
> 
> Isn't that a case of the cure being worse than the ailment?


I believe it's called 'flooding'. Exposure to that much Stockhausen will be such a shock to the inner ear that after the course of treatment is over Bartok will pose no problem to your audial sensibilities. Similarly, if one wishes to get into Stockhausen a course of Merzbow mixed with pure white noise would be the proper course of action.


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## Il Seraglio

I have to admit, after some prolonged exposure to the "music" of B****z, Bartok's string quartets started to sound like Mozart.


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## Head_case

SPR said:


> I have Bartok's SQ's (1-6) by Emerson String Quartet....
> I find these very hard to 'get' or appreciate. Im trying. I think the Emerson quartet is fabulous... but the music...... ah me. Even just getting through SQ #1 in A minor is not easy.. the 3rd movement reminds me of something out of an alfred hitchcock movie. (dont kill me.. its just what came to mind)


When I was a kid, Bartok's 'Interrupted Intermezzo' really turned things on its head and I realised that glissandi; pizzicati in intricate fusions of slashing chords and gliding chords in arced bowing with 4 stringed instruments in tensile grip really pushed the envelope of aesthetics to a form of beauty I had never known.

The barbaric efforts of the Emerson Quartet don't do the Bartokian string quartets the kind of introverted mystery that the Vegh Quartet brought us. They make Bartok sound ... like Shostakovich. Folk music turned on its head, has its own mysteries and the codification of this in Bartok's worldview is nothing less than sensational when you enter into it.

If you can enter into it 

This is the one to get:









Incidentally no one who visits my hi-fi deck ever enjoys Bartok's string quartets. They are mortified that I have 3 different string quartet versions of the same agonising knife-edge music. Hitchhock is a poor approximation; the stabbing chords are there, but Bartok's beauty hides beneath the knife edge of the modern sound.

If you try a different string quartet (warmer recording; preferably mono - like the Vegh Quartet), the flavour is very different. You could try his music for duo violins although if you're after something gentle, beautifully romantic and slow or wistful, it's hard to find in Bartok... Failing that, why not try Kodaly, his countryman? Kodaly's 2 string quartets and his chorale music and solo cello works are very beautiful in a less aggressive manner than Bartok.


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## Vaneyes

After some years with ESQ Bartok, I also threw in the towel. I've opted for ABQ. I can honestly say they are more user-friendly...I think. The Mutter/Orkis Violin Sonata 2 completes all the Bartok chamber I have, or want. 

Bartok orchestral is friendlier, but the PCs were pulling teeth for a long time, too...until I found Anda/Fricsay.

Kodaly chamber is no help. Some of his orchestral conducted by Joo is nice.


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## Sebastien Melmoth

Vaneyes said:


> _The Mutter/Orkis Violin Sonata 2._


That would be the C-major VS, correct? Any disguishing features? Tolerable?


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## Vaneyes

Very much so. An elegant blend of tonal and atonal. 1st movement, violin and piano court. 2nd, vigorous contact, finally fading with two cigarettes.


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## Nix

Working my way through Bartok quartets right now- familiarized myself with 1 & 2 and am on 3 at the moment. Interesting that someone made a comment that 3 was the most difficult to get into, but I'm finding that it's the easiest so far: very manageable length and catchy melodies to guide you along the way. The first one really clicked with me after the 7th listen, the 2nd I've listened to just as much, and while I appreciate it, I don't enjoy it as a much as the other two. But still have 3 more to go!


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## Sid James

I've got Bartok's SQ's, but I've only listened to them a couple of times. I find the last one (the 6th) to be the most approachable, as he repeats a theme at the beginning of each movement. The others I find pretty hard going, especially the first three. It's wierd, but I even find some of Carter's or Tippett's SQ's to be more "understandable" - Bartok was really a groundbreaker, I think, writing complex music decades before these two, and inspiring them big-time to boot. But maybe I have to start listening to the Bartok cycle more (I've got them on EMI played by the Alban Berg Quartet)...


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## Tapkaara

Late last night in my dark room I was listening to the radio an on came Bartok's Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta. I have the piece on CD (Boulez/Chicago) but I hadn't heard it in years. Man, it was like hearing it for the first time. I guess the atmosphere was just right to be in a dark room and a brightly moonlit November evening here in semi-rural San Diego county. What a brilliantly creepy piece.

I am reminded of how Sibelius was particularly impressed by Bartok. In his later years, Sibelius loved listening to the new music of the day even though he was often quite critical of what he heard. Despite his distaste for the likes of Stravinsky, for example, he was quite into Bartok. I wonder what Sibelius thought of Music for String, Percussion and Celeste...


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## Sid James

^^It is basically a neo-classical piece with some added more contemporary, atonal or whatever, elements. Bartok was one of the main modernist composers to resurrect old forms like canons, which abound in _Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta_. Sibelius may well have enjoyed the traditional aspects & how Bartok was able to blend old & new in this piece. It's been said that Bartok's counterpoint harks bach to J.S. Bach & Handel, etc.

I went through a phase of listening to this work constantly a few years back before I went to a performance of it here. I don't listen to it often now. I have it on Decca Eloquence under Maestro Ansermet, another more traditionalist musician who, like Sibelius, seemed to connect deeply with Bartok's music (although he thought little of the c20th Viennese School, for example, but he was fine with Bartok and Frank Martin, who were more traditional, shall we say, than Schoenberg, etc.).

Another thing that may have drawn Sibelius to this work is it's strong visual elements, or at least in some way connecting the visual and emotional/psychological (as you describe listening to it in the dark, etc., that creepy still vibe), no wonder it ended up being used so well in Kubrick's _The Shining_.

I've also read it's a symphony in disguise (like Bartok's_ Concerto for Orch_.). Bartok didn't want to name these works symphonies but that's what they basically were. I don't know if he was intending to distance himself from the Germanic symphonic tradition or whatever? In any case, there are strong parallels between Bartok's works with those of Sibelius, even though the Hungarian didn't call a single piece of his a "symphony" in the literal sense...


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## starthrower

For my ears Bartok's music is the best of both worlds (19th/20th century). I don't think he wrote atonal music, but the modern rhythms and harmonies combined with more traditional elements and folk influences give the music a grounded, earthy feel and sound, while remaining thoroughly modern at the same time. 

The Music For Strings, Percussion And Celesta is a favorite, along with the piano concertos. Great music!


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## NightHawk

This is purely sentimental - but, my wife and I stayed in the bed & breakfast (then, boarding house) that Bartok stayed in while he was working on the 3rd piano concerto - it is in Asheville, North Carolina where he had gone b/c of his failing health. I took the 2nd and 3rd piano concertos on cassette tape (Phillipe Entremont, I believe, I no longer have the tape) and I played the 3rd in our room. The B&B is called the Albermarle and is a Victorian type structure with beautiful woodwork inside and winding staircase. We toured the Biltmore. The owners were very much aware of who Bartok was and showed us the moderately sized room believed to have been his though some renovations had been made. I believe I have read that he incorporated bird song that he heard while staying there into the 3rd piano concerto. I love all three, quite different, concertos, but the third with the last 17 bars finished, I believe, by Tibor Serly (sp) a fellow Hungarian, is the most special to me. Serly's finish is virtuosic and not a Bartok sounding ending, but it works somehow and is so brilliant! The entire work is as you say, 'life-enhancing'.



Lang said:


> I love the gentle, life-enhancing qualities of the third piano concerto, and cannot reconcile this with the fact that he wrote it while he was dying.


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## Tapkaara

I listened to Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta today. I have the Chicago/Boulez recording on Deutsche Grammophon. This disc has been in my collection for some time but it's been at least 3 years since I have listened to it.

The disc also has The Miraculous Mandarin. I never thought very much of this work and I still do not. Music for S, P and C, though, is a masterpiece. Isn't funny how one can go from being lukewarm about a piece of music and coming to adore it several years later?

Wonderfully dark and rich music.


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## Ukko

Tapkaara said:


> I listened to Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta today. I have the Chicago/Boulez recording on Deutsche Grammophon. This disc has been in my collection for some time but it's been at least 3 years since I have listened to it.
> 
> The disc also has The Miraculous Mandarin. I never thought very much of this work and I still do not. Music for S, P and C, though, is a masterpiece. Isn't funny how one can go from being lukewarm about a piece of music and coming to adore it several years later?
> 
> Wonderfully dark and rich music.


Glad you have taken to the MSPC; I doubt that it will 'wear out its welcome'. The Miraculous Mandarin is, I think, akin to the sort of movie music that doesn't work without the movie. I don't know if there is a fully mounted performance on DVD. Given the subject matter,  I wouldn't watch it anyway, but you could give it a try.


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## starthrower

Sonata For Two Pianos And Percussion is the piece I'd recommend next. There's also an orchestrated version conducted by Pierre Boulez on DG. But the sonata version on Sony w/ Murray Perahia and George Solti is a fine performance. This disc also features an excellent Brahms piece, or you can get the reissued Great Performances CD with an all Bartok program.


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## tdc

The Miraculous Mandarin is a fantastic work, and one that I instantly enjoyed upon first hearing. (Not initially knowing much of the subject matter). Its relative unpopularity here is quite mysterious to me. I find its a great work, and also seems to be one of Bartok's most often recorded works as well. 

One of the harder Bartok nuts for me to crack is the above mentioned ^ Sonata For Two Pianos and Percussion, this piece just seems to veer too far off into atonal 'la-la' land for my tastes.


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## starthrower

Repeated listening does wonders with all of these works!


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## tdc

starthrower said:


> Repeated listening does wonders with all of these works!


Good point, I actually just put on Sonata for 2 pianos and Percussion for the first time in ages, and the work has actually really grown on me! :tiphat:


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## starthrower

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I need to do the same with The Miraculous Mandarin. Gotta take it with me in the car where I can't get distracted. That's how I got hooked on all of the piano concertos!


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## kanonathena

The Miraculous Mandarin is certainly the most accessible piece to me, the ruthless rhythm, the eerie sinister atmosphere and the chilling melodies, teenagers should totally dig this!


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## tdc

kanonathena said:


> The Miraculous Mandarin is certainly the most accessible piece to me, the ruthless rhythm, the eerie sinister atmosphere and the chilling melodies, teenagers should totally dig this!


Exactly. When I first heard this work I honestly was quite surprised the Miraculous Mandarin isn't as popular as Stravinsky's Rite. It just grabbed me in a similar way. I'm not saying its better than Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, but I consider it in the same league.


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## kanonathena

I don't know any music composition, but to me the Miraculous Mandarin has a much stronger sense of form and coherence, I never view the piece in sections but as a whole, like a movement of a symphony. Even you really want to divide them into stages, the transition in mood is seamless. That's what I really like about Bartok, his music especially the Miraculous Mandarin has an underlying tone or "base" that's so subtle but so tangible.

Stravinsky's Rite is much much more fragmented like a movie soundtrack.

I still can't believe why the Miraculous Mandarin is so coherent. There is a earthly elegance in Bartok's music. To me he is the only composer that can make the orchestra sound like an single instrument, very clean sound.


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## kanonathena

Esa-Pekka Salonen on Bartók

"profound inter-logic"


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## kanonathena

Rare Bartok footage!


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## Oskaar

I really love his Piano quintet. Maybe leaning back to the prior century, but I love it!


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## starthrower

oskaar said:


> I really love his Piano quintet. Maybe leaning back to the prior century, but I love it!


I wasn't aware of that piece, but I'll give it a listen. Thanks!


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## Ukko

starthrower said:


> I wasn't aware of that piece, but I'll give it a listen. Thanks!


It may qualify as a 'student' piece. Doesn't sound very 'Bartók-ish'. Something like Prokofieff's 1st symphony not sounding very 'Prokofieff-ish', except that the Bartók is even more out-of-character.


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## starthrower

Hilltroll72 said:


> It may qualify as a 'student' piece. Doesn't sound very 'Bartók-ish'. Something like Prokofieff's 1st symphony not sounding very 'Prokofieff-ish', except that the Bartók is even more out-of-character.


Yeah, I only sampled each movt, but I see what your saying.


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## Toddlertoddy

Hilltroll72 said:


> It may qualify as a 'student' piece. Doesn't sound very 'Bartók-ish'.


The piece came as a surprise to me at first and I thought it was a piece composed by a different "Bartok". The piece came way before his six string quartets, and I only knew the period after his first piano concerto. I'm not a fan of Romantic Bartok.


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## tdc

Big fan of the Bartok Piano Quintet myself. It may be more traditional, though I find many passages that showcase (perhaps subtley) that breathtaking and magical Bartokian world which was to be later fully realized in works like Bluebeard's Castle, the Concertos and SQ's etc. Its the same with his music for solo piano - its often over-looked, but on closer inspection Bartok's magic touch is definitely there. IMO.


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## myaskovsky2002

For my birthday two years ago I bought for myself the complete works. I had many many CDs and the whole collection on LP... Indeed, Bartok was MY musician when I was a teen, one hundred years ago.

Martin, old


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## science

What are Bartok's best works for solo piano? Any favorites?


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## Ukko

science said:


> What are Bartok's best works for solo piano? Any favorites?


All of the works based an Hungarian and/or Romanian folk music and identified as such, are mood-creating. If you crank up your imagination a little, "Out of Doors" is great - and the finale may cause a cold frisson.


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## Vaneyes

science said:


> What are Bartok's best works for solo piano? Any favorites?


Listen to anything you can of Kocsis and Schiff. For historical value, Bartok and Sandor.

Quality recs readily available and reasonably-priced...

View attachment 6524
View attachment 6525
View attachment 6526


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## starthrower

I bought the complete set by Zoltan Kocsis. Very reasonable for 8 CDs.
http://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Comple...ll&keywords=bartok+complete+solo+piano+woorks


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## Ukko

starthrower said:


> I bought the complete set by Zoltan Kocsis. Very reasonable for 8 CDs.
> http://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Comple...ll&keywords=bartok+complete+solo+piano+woorks


I have most of that, released in shorter doses. Really fine interpretations.


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## Tero

Last purchase: Contrasts. Done by a trio. Also has some Stravinsky.


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## science

Thanks guys. I have the Kocsis set. What I'm wondering is, which of these works are most popular? 

It just occurred to me to use ArkivMusic's #s of recordings as a rough estimate - the works for solo piano with more than ten recordings: 

Romanian Folkdances, Sz 56 - 86
Allegro barbaro - 49 
Sonata, Sz 80 - 32
Sonatina, Sz 55 - 29
Out of Doors, Sz 81 - 27
Suite, Sz 62 - 26
Hungarian Peasant Songs, Sz 71 - 25
Improvisations on Hungarian Peasant Songs, Sz 74 - 16
For Children, Sz 42 - 13 
Hungarian Folksongs from the Csik district, Sz 35a - 13 
Romanian Christmas Carols, Sz 57 - 11
Etudes, Sz 72 - 10


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## tahnak

I have not heard a better performance of the Wooden Prince than this one by Boulez and Chicago.


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## Toddlertoddy

science said:


> Thanks guys. I have the Kocsis set. What I'm wondering is, which of these works are most popular?
> 
> It just occurred to me to use ArkivMusic's #s of recordings as a rough estimate - the works for solo piano with more than ten recordings:
> 
> Romanian Folkdances, Sz 56 - 86
> Allegro barbaro - 49
> Sonata, Sz 80 - 32
> Sonatina, Sz 55 - 29
> Out of Doors, Sz 81 - 27
> Suite, Sz 62 - 26
> Hungarian Peasant Songs, Sz 71 - 25
> Improvisations on Hungarian Peasant Songs, Sz 74 - 16
> For Children, Sz 42 - 13
> Hungarian Folksongs from the Csik district, Sz 35a - 13
> Romanian Christmas Carols, Sz 57 - 11
> Etudes, Sz 72 - 10


I would say Allegro barbaro is more popular.

Also,


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## tahnak

This is a brilliant reading of Bartok's Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta by Eugene Ormandy and Philadelphia. The definitive one is by Sir Georg Solti and Chicago


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## millionrainbows

Sebastien Melmoth said:


> Can anyone enlighten me on Bartók? He's recognized as one of the greatest of 20th Century composers, but I wonder...What is his main feature?--Eastern European folk elements? His music seems all over the place without an unifying style: this I dislike....Was this guy really any good?


Bartók can be hard to pin-down, because he used an arsenal of different techniques in composing. To some, his string quartets are the way in; to others, like me, the orchestral works such as "Music for Percussion..." that Sid James mentioned earlier are the key.

The "creepiness" that many listeners cite is due to the fact of Bartók's use of small intervals, as well as use of the diminished scale (symmetrical in nature & dividing the octave in half via the tritone).

Here is my long-winded explanation of Bartók, which you can take or leave, which I posted elsewhere:

I'm skimming through "Bartok: An Analysis of his Music" by Elliott Antokoletz, and there's an interesting chapter called 'Basic Principles of Symmetrical Pitch Construction."

It states, basically, that traditional Western music was based on an uneven division of the octave, namely the perfect fourth and fifth.

Look at all the intervals: all of them have complementary intervals which add up to an octave (min. 3rd/maj. 6th, etc.), and the smaller of these two complements generates a cycle which divides the octave symmetrically: one cycle of m2, two cycles of M2, three of m3, four cycles of M3, and six cycles of tritones; _except_ the p4 and p5: _this complementary interval does not generate a cycle which divides the octave symmetrically, but must extend through many octaves in order to reach its initial starting point again._ Thus, there is only one cycle of perfect fourths, or perfect fifths.

In terms of pure set theory, the reason that perfect fourths and fifths behave this way is that 5 (a perfect fourth is five half steps) and 7 (a perfect fifth is seven half steps) are not divisors of 12...neither 5 nor 7 go into 12; 
until:

5 goes into 60, a multiple of 12 (circle of fourths, five octaves: C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb B E A D G)

7 goes into 84, a multiple of 12 (circle of fifths, seven octaves: C G D A E B Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F)..."

The reason why this 'difference' of fourths and fifths was brought up is because the author of the Bartok book is saying that Bartok based his music on an _even division of the octave, namely,* the tritone.*_

From a perspective of pure arithmetic, the octave can be seen as 'unity.' The octave, without regard to register, in terms of pitch identity and relation to a 'root,' can be called '1' or unity. On a number line, anything less than one, proceeding back to zero (infinity), is fractional. Anything larger than one proceeds forward, into the 'other' infinity of octaves.

*Perhaps this is why the 4th & 5th are different; instead of dividing the octave fractionally, they are expansive by nature; they go 'outward' past one, past the octave, into other 'root' stations. Hence, the use of 4ths & 5ths to create root movement.*

Every interval has its complement. All the intervals except perfect fourths & fifths have a smaller number which divides the octave (12) symmetrically;

So each interval has 2 numbers which add up to an octave.

The m2 has itself 1 and 11; 
M2 is 2 and 10; 
m3 is 3 and 9; 
M3 is 4 and 8;
p4 is 5 and 7;
tritone is 6 and 6;
p5 is 7 and 5;
m6 is 8 and 4;
M6 is 9 and 3;
m7 is 10 and 2;
and M7 is 11 and 1.

You can see the symmetry in this; and if we eliminate the redundancies, such as 10-2/2-10, we have 6 essential intervals.

*Again, neither 5 nor 7 go into 12;* until
5 goes into 60, a multiple of 12 (circle of fourths, five octaves: C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb B E A D G)
7 goes into 84, a multiple of 12 (circle of fifths, seven octaves: C G D A E B Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F)"

The fourth and fifth, as pointed out, cannot be used as divisors of 12 (the octave); therefore, they can be seen as "expanding" in nature, as they generate cycles of 12 notes (outside the octave). Remember, 60 and 84 had to be used as the common denominators for 5 and 7. These large numbers can be seen as 'outside the octave' or as a 'greater referential point.' *Hence, the reason the 4th and 5th are the basis of traditional Western music; this facilitates movement outside the octave, to a new reference point or new key.
*
*This means that 'modern' music, like Bartok's,* is _'inward-going'_ or _'introspective'_ if you like to indulge in metaphor (after all, this is art, not science). This is what Marshall McLuhan was getting at in his book "Through the Vanishing Point," in which he explains how our perspective on things is literally reversed in modern art, putting us at the other end of the 'vanishing point.' Like looking down the wrong end of a telescope, or rather a microscope, the 'inner' world now becomes our universe, heading towards the 'other infinity' towards zero; just like our number line, where anything less than one, proceeding back to zero (infinity), is fractional, and anything larger than one proceeds forward, into the 'other' infinity of octaves.

This is about music, and the nature of tonality. The ideas I put forth about intervals, although fairly simple in one sense, are laying the groundwork for a larger, more all-encompassing understanding of tonality and chromaticism. I see it as a necessary reference to the ideas which will follow. The 'simple arithmetic' of intervals is necessary, in case some of these ideas about intervals & reciprocals might not be fully 'grokked' by some readers.

It's simple, and it's complicated, all at the same time; but after a thorough pondering and practical application (in composition) of Howard Hanson's ideas of interval projection, I decided it was time to tackle the ideas of another musical giant: Bartók, and what a revelation it has been! Especially the little book by Ernö Lendvai, which I highly recommend, that is, IF you are sufficiently prepared to read it. Some knowledge of intervals & reciprocals is necessary.
The Ernö Lendvai book deals a lot with the 'meta-concepts' of Bartók's methods. It generalizes to a great extent, and is not a very lengthy book, but it states the case elegantly, and it is a beautiful book. It divides Bartók's ideas into two main categories: the 'GS' approach, which has to do with the "Golden Section" and the Fibonacci series, and is also called his 'chromatic system'; and Bartók's 'diatonic system,' which is based on acoustic principles.

The beauty of all this is that the two approaches reflect each other in an inverse relationship.

In this quote by Ernö Lendvai, he reveals the most profound aspect of Bartók's system:

"A secret of Bartók's music, and perhaps the most profound, is that the 'closed' world of the GS (Golden Section) (1,2,3 and 6 being 'closed' or 'inward-directed' intervals, as opposed to 4ths and 5ths) is counterbalanced by the 'open' sphere of the acoustic system. The former always pre-supposes the presence of the complete system -- it is not accidental that we have always depicted chromatic formations in the closed circle of fifths. In the last, all relations are dependent on one tone since the natural sequence of overtones emerges from one single root: therefore it is open. *Thus, the diatonic system has a fundamental 'root' note, and the chromatic system a 'central' note...*Bartók's GS system always involves the concentric expansion or contraction of intervals..."

So we can see from this exposition of the intervals that modern music started moving away from traditional tonality by way of exploiting the INHERENT SYMMETRIES in the 12-note scale.

In the bigger picture, what these small, recursive intervals do is allow the creation of pitch cells; these are aggregates of notes which expand around an axis of symmetry. Thus, localized areas of tonal centricity can be created on any note.

*An analogy would be, traditional tonality is like a tree which grows up in one direction from one 'rooted' spot; in the chromatic approach, tonality becomes radiant 'flowers' of pitch, centering on any possible note in the vertical spectrum.*

Another aspect of Bartók's approach which has puzzled many is the fact that he still uses the fifth & fourth as generators of traditional tonality, sometimes mixing the two approaches.

*All of these ideas were 'in the air' so to speak, around the turn of the century, and were not unique to Bartók;* examples of symmetry began showing up as early as R. Strauss, in his 'Elektra' and 'Metamorphosen,' before he retreated back into conservative classicism. Debussy, as most of us know, used the whole-tone scale in his music, most notably the prelude 'Voiles' from Book I. The 6-note whole-tone scale itself is a symmetrical projection of the major second, and there are only two of them; Debussy exploits this characteristic to create 2 areas of contrasting tonality. Schoenberg was influenced by this idea as well; in an old post of mine from an Amazon thread, "Schoenberg's Op. 26 Wind Quintet", I pointed this out:
________________________________________

[The row is (first hexad) Eb-G-A-B-C#-C, which gives an augmented/whole-tone scale feel, with a "resolution" to C at the end, then (second hexad) Bb-D-E-F#-G#-F, which is very similar in its augmented/whole-tone scale structure, which only makes sense: there are only two whole-tone scales in the chromatic collection, each a chromatic half-step away from the other. I've heard Debussy use the two whole-tone scales in this manner, moving down a half-step to gain entry to the new key area. This is why Schoenberg used a "C" in the first hexad, and the "F" in the second; these are "gateways" into the chromatically adjacent scale area. Chromatic half-step relations like these can also be seen as "V-I" relations, when used as dual-identity "tri-tone substitutions" as explained following.
Another characteristic of whole-tone scales is their use (as in Thelonious Monk's idiosyncratic whole-tone run) as an altered dominant, or V chord. There is a tritone present, which creates a b7/3-3/b7 ambiguity, exploited by jazz players as "tri-tone substitution". The tritone (if viewed as b7-3 rather than I-b5) creates a constant harmonic movement, which is what chromatic jazzers, as well as German expressionists, are after.
So Schoenberg had several ideas in mind of the tonal implications when he chose this row.]
________________________________________________

Also, from this we can see that, historically, it was the tritone (in both V7-I's and in diminished seventh chords) which was the first emergent symmetry which led to the expansion of tonality; this interval was the color tone in the V7-I progression, being the major third and flat-seven, which would then exchange places for the next cycle. This gave rise to new roots, moving chromatically instead of by fifths. This was tied-in (as mentioned above) with 'flat-nine' dominant altered chords, which are closely related to the diminished seventh. The use of 'flat-nine dominants' as true V chords appears as early as Beethoven and Bach. The vii degree of the major scale, a diminished triad, has always been treated as an incomplete dominant ninth with G as the 'imaginary' root, and resolved as a V7 chord would be (to C).
So, it can be seen from all this that 'tonality' underwent great changes around the dawn of the 20th century; and one should not confuse this expanded chromatic version of tonality with Schoenberg's 12-tone method, which just confuses the issue.

Quoting Lendvai: "In fact, I am more critical of Schoenberg than I ever was before; his method treated dissonances like consonances, and renounced a tonal center. But dissonance is not the same as consonance; it has different acoustical and physiological effects. Therefore, dissonance ought not be treated as if it were identical with consonance. Plus, Schoenberg's renunciation of a tonal center does not follow from any previously stated proposition, and is merely an assertion of his dogmatic belief that the negation of tonality was 'historically inevitable.'"

However, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

In closing, this quote by co-authors George Perle and Paul Lansky:

"Perhaps the most important influence of Schoenberg's method is not the 12-note idea itself, but along with it the individual concepts of permutation, inversional symmetry, invariance under transformation, etc.....Each of these ideas by itself, or in conjunction with many others, is focused upon with varying degrees...by...Bartók, Stravinsky, Berg, Webern, Varèse, etc...In this sense the development of the serial idea may be viewed not as a radical break with the past but as an especially brilliant coordination of musical ideas which had developed in the course of recent history. The symmetrical divisions of the octave so often found in Liszt and Wagner, for example, are not momentary abberations in tonal music which led to its ultimate destruction, but, rather, important musical ideas which, in defying integration into a given concept of a musical language, challenged the boundaries of that language."


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## Ukko

Thanks _@millionrainbows_. I probably absorbed very little of that, but its pretty damn interesting anyway. Naturally, I have subsumed that 'very little' into my own highly unprofessional (and according to a knowledgeable friend wrong) concept of mental processes regarding music. 

If it isn't there already, this treatise should appear in the Articles sub-forum - where it might be more retrievable by TC's search engine.


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## millionrainbows

Hilltroll72 said:


> Thanks _@millionrainbows_. I probably absorbed very little of that, but its pretty damn interesting anyway. Naturally, I have subsumed that 'very little' into my own highly unprofessional (and according to a knowledgeable friend wrong) concept of mental processes regarding music.
> 
> If it isn't there already, this treatise should appear in the Articles sub-forum - where it might be more retrievable by TC's search engine.


Thanks, and that sounds like a good idea to post it over there. These ideas are the result of years of my pondering, and I'd probably not be able to explain them in conversation. I go through phases of clarity, but I still get befuddled by it all at times; and there is a certain "disconnect" between this and actually listening. Consider it to be my "indulgence" at work. But if you only get the "expansion/introspection" idea, that goes a long way in understanding Bartók.


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## Sid James

I am not a musician, so most of that went above my head, but I really liked this quote -



millionrainbows said:


> ...
> ...
> *An analogy would be, traditional tonality is like a tree which grows up in one direction from one 'rooted' spot; in the chromatic approach, tonality becomes radiant 'flowers' of pitch, centering on any possible note in the vertical spectrum.*
> 
> ...


& also the fact that you mentioned other composers around early 20th century, when tonality was breaking down (well, much of the traditional tonal system that had dominated the past). Eg. not only Bartok but also R. Strauss & especially Debussy, Schoenberg. The fact is that Schoenberg is often labelled the 'bogey man' of classical music, accused of destroying tradition, but if we blame him we may as well blame any composer of consequence around that time. & what about guys of late 19th century who went to the brink & pointed the way ahead, eg. Wagner, Liszt, even Bruckner?

Anyway, these things are above this thread (I agree with Hilltroll, this can be made into its own thread in articles section), but its what that quote especially made me think about.


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## etkearne

Yes. Bartók's beautiful use of the Octatonic scale which is built on two Diminished Seventh chords, is the main root of the creep factor, which is my favorite part of his work. Creating cluster chords OUT OF the Octatonic Scale yields pure Bartókian sounds (I use them in my popular music songs to scare stoners who may be listening while high as a kite). 

Couple this with a heavy obsession with the Acoustic Scale, which is also eluded to in the post above (because of the fundamental acoustic properties of the scale), gives an even more Bartókian sound.

But to truly get Bartók, you have to know how to perfectly balance extreme dissonance with haunting, odd, yet somewhat familiar tonality. And that is very very hard.

To see exactly the chords and scales I am speaking of, listen to the middle movement of his Piano Sonata or any piano work from 1926-1930.


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## Manxfeeder

millionrainbows said:


> Bartók can be hard to pin-down, because he used an arsenal of different techniques in composing.


I saw you make that statement before and wondered what you meant. Now I see what you're talking about.

Thanks for the article. It's opened my eyes to the contrast between traditional tonality and composers like Bartok: traditional tonality thinks "in" C, whereas Bartok thinks "on" C. These 20th Century composers really had a difficult road to travel, and it's interesting what solutions they came up with.


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## Ukko

Manxfeeder said:


> [...]
> Thanks for the article. It's opened my eyes to the contrast between traditional tonality and composers like Bartok: traditional tonality thinks "in" C, whereas Bartok thinks "on" C. These 20th Century composers really had a difficult road to travel, and it's interesting what solutions they came up with.


Bartók' "arsenal of different techniques" was apparently the cause of his post-WW2 dismissal by Adorno and his disciples Messiaen and Boulez. Too big a toolbox to establish a 'school' around, so useless to them. But he had to be denigrated to make room for their New Music.


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## etkearne

Manxfeeder said:


> I saw you make that statement before and wondered what you meant. Now I see what you're talking about.
> 
> Thanks for the article. It's opened my eyes to the contrast between traditional tonality and composers like Bartok: traditional tonality thinks "in" C, whereas Bartok thinks "on" C. These 20th Century composers really had a difficult road to travel, and it's interesting what solutions they came up with.


And for Bartók and the Axis System, C is the same as F#. You can interchange any tonal system with its equivalent raised a tritone. This actually constructs a system of "new" tonics, predominants, and dominants for each key you "start on". I just used C to make a point since we were all kidding around about his C Major works haha.


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## maestro57

Dear Mr. Bartok, I just voted you the hottest composer in one of the TC threads asking who the hottest composer was. You're welcome! <exploding fistbump>


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## millionrainbows

I'm listening to the Bartok (1881-1945): _Piano Concerto No. 1 (1926),_ Boulez, Krystian Zimmerman, CSO (DG 2005) and here's my brief summary.

First movement: This obviously owes much to Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring._ The opening chord on horns is drawn from the octatonic (diminished) scale.

Some of the scale-like phrases sound almost directly lifted from _Rite_ or _Petroushka_. _Rite-_like phrases at 16:00/28:00; _Rite-_like exchanges & cross rhythms at 1:00; _Rite-_like tonality at 5:00; _Petroushka-_like parallel chords at 2:35 and 5:30;

There is strong rhythmic pulse throughout, which helps propel it along. The piano sounds integrated with the orchestra, frequently doubling rhythmic accents with the tympani and percussion.

The thing I like best about Bartók are not his "thematic" elements, which here sound very declamatory and Stravinsky-derived, but the other more "Bartókian" abstract elements which occur without drawing attention, and tie everything together: scale runs, the strange arpeggiated chords which occur at 3:27-3:40 and 4:07-4:20, and the little 3-note cells which flit about, at 6:20-6:25.

Second movement: is almost piano and percussion alone; gone are the Stravinsky allusions. A few solo instruments appear at the end, making this into a sort of chamber music. The fourth-chords on the piano, with percussive accents, give a feeling of suspenseful, surrealistic space, like a dark _Yves Tanguy_ landscape of strange airiness. This is the true Bartók, being himself: introspective, subtle, understated, and dark. The theme which occurs at 3:25 and continues to build up to the end, is memorable; seemingly bi-tonal, a melody in one key played against another contrasting key.

Third movement: Rhythmically driving, lightning-fast scale runs; still firmly diminished-scale oriented. A few trills at 1:26 reminiscent of Rite's opening, again...several spots of cadenza-like solo piano activity; The very ending seems to have finally arrived at a diatonic/majorish area for the finale.


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## John Browne

I have a cd of a few of his orchestral works and I love it. 
The cd consist of: Concerto for Orchestra, Dance Suites, Hungarian Village Sketches, Romanian Folk Dances, Music for Strings.., Divermento, Miraculous Mandarin. 

Great organizer of sounds.


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## Neo Romanza

John Browne said:


> I have a cd of a few of his orchestral works and I love it.
> The cd consist of: Concerto for Orchestra, Dance Suites, Hungarian Village Sketches, Romanian Folk Dances, Music for Strings.., Divermento, Miraculous Mandarin.
> 
> Great organizer of sounds.


 No recordings of the concerti?


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## DrKilroy

I am listening to the second movement of Piano Concerto no. 2. It sounds almost like Ives' Central Park in the Dark! 

Best regards, Dr


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## millionrainbows

DrKilroy said:


> I am listening to the second movement of Piano Concerto no. 2. It sounds almost like Ives' Central Park in the Dark!
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Yes, I have noticed that. Bartok wrote his concerto in 1930-31, and Ives wrote Central Park in the Dark in 1906, and revised it in 1936. I wonder if it was published, or if Bartok had ever heard it?


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## Neo Romanza

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, I have noticed that. Bartok wrote his concerto in 1930-31, and Ives wrote Central Park in the Dark in 1906, and revised it in 1936. I wonder if it was published, or if Bartok had ever heard it?


I highly doubt Bartok heard any of Ives, especially considering how much of an 'outsider' Ives was and how performances of his music were quite rare in those days.


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## tdc

The Ives and Bartok pieces are strikingly similar in places, but also very different in structure and the contrasts of the pieces. The Bartok adagio is to my ears more structured and refined, the piano sections show more of a contrast in mood and more clarity and focused direction than the Ives piece, which seems to remain somewhat 'foggy' throughout (in a way somewhat like the differences between Debussy and Ravel). I do greatly enjoy both works. Whether or not Bartok heard CPITD I have no idea.


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## Ukko

Neo Romanza said:


> I highly doubt Bartok heard any of Ives, especially considering how much of an 'outsider' Ives was and how performances of his music were quite rare in those days.


It may also be relevant that Bartók was a European, and Ives' music was not on the pop charts there.


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## tdc

^ Yes, I was thinking it might have been possible perhaps Bartok had heard the Ives work if he moved to America around the time of the composition of his Piano Concerto No. 2, but checking Wiki I see that move didn't occur until almost a decade later, so the chances of Bartok having heard the Ives piece prior to composing that concerto are certainly extremely low.


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## tdc

Personally I wouldn't care if he did hear it first though. That kind of borrowing is quite common, and the Bartok work differs substantially. As much as I love the Ives work, I prefer that Bartok PC by quite a ways, it is among my favorite pieces of music. Bartok is able to use those eerie strings in a more effective way I think. The way they are contrasted with the other sections really transports the listener into another dimension.


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## millionrainbows

tdc said:


> The Ives and Bartok pieces are strikingly similar in places, but also very different in structure and the contrasts of the pieces. The Bartok adagio is to my ears more structured and refined, the piano sections show more of a contrast in mood and more clarity and focused direction than the Ives piece, which seems to remain somewhat 'foggy' throughout (in a way somewhat like the differences between Debussy and Ravel). I do greatly enjoy both works. Whether or not Bartok heard CPITD I have no idea.


That's interesting that Ives is so easily thrown under the bus! I love Ives ten times more than Bartok, so I must be "unrefined" and "unfocussed," and "foggy," and proud of it!


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## tdc

millionrainbows said:


> That's interesting that Ives is so easily thrown under the bus! I love Ives ten times more than Bartok, so I must be "unrefined" and "unfocussed," and "foggy," and proud of it!


Not at all, do you think that you criticize every fan of a composer when you criticize a composer? If so you have criticized a lot of listeners with your opinions on Brahms. But I don't think it works that way myself. I'm not surprised you like Ives ten times more than Bartok because in your postings on Bartok on more than one occasion you have tried to take him down a little notch or two, no?

Though I did not actually intend my remarks to be a criticism of Ives anyway, aside from insinuating in this case I prefer the Bartok work. I think Ives was going for a somewhat "foggy" and "unfocussed" feel in that piece, it is depicting a dimly lit scene, is it not? I find plenty of refined focused structure in other Ives works, his symphonies for example. Ives versatility is one of the aspects that made him so great I think. He is certainly among my favorite composers.


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## millionrainbows

tdc said:


> Not at all, do you think that you criticize every fan of a composer when you criticize a composer? If so you have criticized a lot of listeners with your opinions on Brahms. But I don't think it works that way myself. I'm not surprised you like Ives ten times more than Bartok because in your postings on Bartok on more than one occasion you have tried to take him down a little notch or two, no?


AHH, now I see your agenda. It's the Brahms incident. I suppose I deserve fifty lashes...with a wet noodle. :lol:



tdc said:


> Though I did not actually intend my remarks to be a criticism of Ives anyway, aside from insinuating in this case I prefer the Bartok work. I think Ives was going for a somewhat "foggy" and "unfocussed" feel in that piece, it is depicting a dimly lit scene, is it not? [/QUOTE}
> 
> Okay, I'll buy that. Foggy is_ good..._
> 
> 
> 
> tdc said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find plenty of refined focused structure in other Ives works, his symphonies for example. Ives versatility is one of the aspects that made him so great I think. He is certainly among my favorite composers.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I agree. What were we arguing about? I forgot...
Click to expand...


----------



## tdc

millionrainbows said:


> I'm listening to the Bartok (1881-1945): _Piano Concerto No. 1 (1926),_ Boulez, Krystian Zimmerman, CSO (DG 2005) and here's my brief summary.
> 
> *This obviously owes much to Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. *


That (in bold) seems to sum up your analysis, (aside from the arpeggios and scale runs etc. that you feel were Bartok "being himself") but I think you overly assign debt here, and your wording suggests _extreme_ debt closer to plagiarism than influence, and I don't think there are any other scholars that would agree with your analysis of this work. In much the same way as you pointed out Ives _Central Park in the Dark_ and the Bartok PC no. 2 middle movement have similarities, (_and it was shown Bartok almost certainly could not have even heard Ives work_). There really are certain sounds and scales that were 'in the air' in the first half of the 20th century, and I don't think quite so much as you suggest was derived from Stravinsky's early ballets.

The harmonic language of Bartok (and Stravinsky) owes more of a debt to Debussy than anything else. After Debussy's innovations both Bartok and Stravinsky enriched and expanded the rhythmic vocabulary of music in their own distinct ways.

Stravinsky himself has alluded to the fact that great artists steal, so perhaps through much of Stravinsky's work by your logic (not what I would assert) he also "isn't himself"? But virtually all scholars would agree these two composers were at the forefront of musical innovation in the early 20th century so to claim such things I think is not really fair or an accurate representation of what they were doing.

I personally don't hear a lot of similarities between the Rite and Bartok's PC no. 1 outside of the previously mentioned general harmonic language that was being commonly used at the time. There is a percussive piano technique in the concerto which Bartok pioneered that is not found in any of Stravinsky's works. The texture of Bartok's PC no. 1 is thick and heavy, atmospherically, the Rite by contrast is very sharp and cutting. Bartok was actually influenced by quite a few other composers more so than Stravinsky, and you can hear this as the two composers musical oeuvres are very different. In reality Bartok stands right alongside composers such as Debussy, Schoenberg and Stravinsky in helping forge the new language of modernism in the first decades of the 20th century.


----------



## Andreas

Sergiu Celibidache during rehearsals of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra:

"This musical economy. Only Ravel matched him. To write so much music with such few notes. Think about it, this man taught piano in Budapest, he was not a professor of composition. And he died in New York with $400 of dept at the pharmacy. And Mr Boosey & Hawkes, his publisher, is a billionaire. I cannot forgive myself that I have lived during Bartok's time and did not know anything of him. What kind of life is that!

It is disarming. When you think that composers nowadays feel they absolutely need a new language to deal with their lack of ideas. Language does not make up for a lack of ideas. What we don't have, we cannot express. Bartok's music is the best evidence for that. None of us is able to explain what is going on here. Why are we so overwhelmed by it? I don't know about you, but I'm very confused. When I hear this, I have no explanation anymore for composition, for knowledge, for practice. What is it all good for? Look at this. And with what simple, humaine means he achieves it. With this mixture of diatonicism and chromaticism. Think about it. And him we've let starve. It is still a horrible world."


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## Vaneyes

*Bartok* receives 2013's Record of the Year from Gramophone.

Description of (no intention to push MDT, though they're a good retailer)...

http://www.mdt.co.uk/bartok-eotvos-ligeti-violin-concertos-modern-peter-eotvos-naive-2cds.html


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## Cheyenne

Vaneyes said:


> *Bartok* receives 2013's Record of the Year from Gramophone.
> 
> Description of (no intention to push MDT, though they're a good retailer)...
> 
> http://www.mdt.co.uk/bartok-eotvos-ligeti-violin-concertos-modern-peter-eotvos-naive-2cds.html


Thanks for the link! I think I'll get that CD sometime; it'll probably appear in the local classical store now that it's the Gramophone record of the year.


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## Centropolis

I am relatively new to classical music and started buying CDs 3 months ago but haven't bought anything for Bartok yet. I want to start discovering his music.

For his essential pieces, would a combination of the Solti box and a set of string quartets be a good collection of all the basic pieces?

http://www.deccaclassics.com/us/cat...T_ID=SOLGE&flow_per_page=50&presentation=flow


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## arpeggio

*Looks good to me.*



Centropolis said:


> I am relatively new to classical music and started buying CDs 3 months ago but haven't bought anything for Bartok yet. I want to start discovering his music.
> 
> For his essential pieces, would a combination of the Solti box and a set of string quartets be a good collection of all the basic pieces?
> 
> http://www.deccaclassics.com/us/cat...T_ID=SOLGE&flow_per_page=50&presentation=flow


Looks good to me. (attachment to make message comply with minimum length requirement)


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## Ukko

Centropolis said:


> I am relatively new to classical music and started buying CDs 3 months ago but haven't bought anything for Bartok yet. I want to start discovering his music.
> 
> For his essential pieces, would a combination of the Solti box and a set of string quartets be a good collection of all the basic pieces?
> 
> http://www.deccaclassics.com/us/cat...T_ID=SOLGE&flow_per_page=50&presentation=flow


The Solti box won't hurt, but the string quartets could; none of them are 'easy listening'. I suggest getting a CD of the 3rd and 4th, and listening only when you're definitely _in the mood._ The music will probably sort itself out in your head after awhile. The link is to a useful CD listed on amazon.com. The playing is good enough, if not great.

http://www.amazon.com/Bartok-String...d=1381340284&sr=1-60&keywords=bartok+quartets


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## chalkpie

Vaneyes said:


> *Bartok* receives 2013's Record of the Year from Gramophone.
> 
> Description of (no intention to push MDT, though they're a good retailer)...
> 
> http://www.mdt.co.uk/bartok-eotvos-ligeti-violin-concertos-modern-peter-eotvos-naive-2cds.html


Spotify has this - just added to my playlist. Danka mate!


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## Centropolis

Ukko said:


> The Solti box won't hurt, but the string quartets could; none of them are 'easy listening'. I suggest getting a CD of the 3rd and 4th, and listening only when you're definitely _in the mood._ The music will probably sort itself out in your head after awhile.


I've listened to the Bartok string quartets and oh my gosh....you're absolutely right. I cannot get used to them at all at this point. I understand the later classical music have more dissonance and all that but it seems that Bartok went out of his way to make them completely hard to listen to. Forgive me, I am just starting out and I still prefer the classical period of music. Bartok for now, it's too much for me to understand. I just got over Bruckner not too long ago.


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## Ukko

Centropolis said:


> I've listened to the Bartok string quartets and oh my gosh....you're absolutely right. I cannot get used to them at all at this point. I understand the later classical music have more dissonance and all that but it seems that Bartok went out of his way to make them completely hard to listen to. Forgive me, I am just starting out and I still prefer the classical period of music. Bartok for now, it's too much for me to understand. I just got over Bruckner not too long ago.


You are very much not alone. "Understanding" Bartók's quartets may require a... listening adjustment. He isn't just throwing notes into space, there are patterns in there; when they fall into place in your mind they will be pleasing patterns. Some of his music for larger forces has a surface layer (or at least it seems that way to me) that is easier to connect to. The Divertimento for Strings and the Concerto for Orchestra are that way. The Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta is more challenging probably (I'm going by my experience here).

That's about as far as I can take this line; I am too long a Bartókian to remember much about the 'break-in period'.


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## millionrainbows

I'm well-versed in modern music, so Bartok is relatively easy listening if you compare it with hard-core Serialism. It really depends on the piece; his Mikrokosmos Book 1 is almost too simplistic, but these are learning pieces. Anyone, including children, should be able to understand the Mikrokosmos series (4 books). These are available on a 5-CD set of his complete solo piano music on Vox.

Bartok was not a serialist. He used an "alternate" approach to music, non-Western in the classical sense, which he adopted as a way of aligning himself with the authentic "folk" music of Maygar. Bartok did not consider himself a full-time composer, and his time was equally devoted to being an ethnomusicologist, travelling around and documenting folk music of his country Hungary.
Bartok's "system" was not serial, but harmonic. The pentatonic scale figured strongly in this, as it does in most folk music, but he also developed a different way of establishing key centers, eschewing the fourth and fifths-based system of Western tonality with one which divided the octave at the tritone. This was derived from the minor-third interval, which, when "projected" onto itself, produces the diminished scale, with its inherent tritone. Thus, any note which is considered the "tonic" has counterparts which lie minor thirds away in both directions on the chromatic circle. This automatically creates tri-tone relations. Erno Lenvai describes this system in more detail in his excellent book.

The main point I want to make is that, beyond one's own preferences, there is no reason not to "get" Bartok, because his music is still harmonically based, unlike serialism. Bartok has not left the realm of harmony; there may be more dissonance here, but there is no "conceptual wall" of a "non-harmonic" music system as there is in serialism: Bartok's music is "ear" music, written for the adventurous listener.

To those who find Bartok too difficult to listen to, I am compelled to write this off as a conservative stance based on limited listening. Being a "musical omnivore," I have encountered much world music and non-Western music, so my ears have been "toughened-up" and my mind has been "opened-up" to all sorts of musical sounds and approaches.

After all, Bartok was an Eastern European, and a "man of the world," which makes him exotic fare, not for the unadventurous or conservative.

*This is a Bartok thread, after all: let's reserve it for praise, not narrow criticism. *


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## Mahlerian

millionrainbows said:


> The main point I want to make is that, beyond one's own preferences, there is no reason not to "get" Bartok, because his music is still harmonically based, unlike serialism. Bartok has not left the realm of harmony; there may be more dissonance here, but there is no "conceptual wall" of a "non-harmonic" music system as there is in serialism: Bartok's music is "ear" music, written for the adventurous listener.


What is the difference in result between 12-tone writing, and, say, linear polyphony, in which the harmonic results between two lines are more or less irrelevant to harmonic direction and progression? How is one less "harmonic" than the other? A piece of music is only as harmonically-driven as the composer makes it, and in my opinion, if you give up functional tonality, all harmonic successions work by assertion more than anything else.

Your distinction between "harmonic" and "serial" music makes no sense to me. I think you are both underestimating the difference between Bartok and the music of the 19th century, and overestimating the difference between Bartok and Webern. I would not criticize someone for their not appreciating music like Bartok's.


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## tdc

I find certain pieces like Bartok's _Sonata for 2 Pianos and Percussion_, as quite complex, unorthodox and personally as difficult to grasp as anything written by the major 12 tone composers of the modern era. On the other hand I find his String Quartets surprisingly accessible. They seem to me compared with some of his music fairly traditional sounding and contrapuntal in many places, with rich tapestry and intricate beautiful writing albeit quite dissonant and wild at times as well.


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## Mahlerian

tdc said:


> I find certain pieces like Bartok's _Sonata for 2 Pianos and Percussion_, as quite complex, unorthodox and personally as difficult to grasp as anything written by the major 12 tone composers of the modern era. On the other hand I find his String Quartets surprisingly accessible. They seem to me compared with some of his music fairly traditional sounding and contrapuntal in many places, with rich tapestry and intricate beautiful writing albeit quite dissonant and wild at times as well.


I think anyone who's talking about the accessibility (or lack thereof) of this or that work needs to realize that this is a completely subjective thing. What is accessible depends entirely upon personal experience, or even how attentive one happens to be at a given time. To someone very attuned to contrapuntal/developmental music, Schoenberg is perhaps not all that inaccessible, while the coloristic writing of the Impressionists may take some more getting used to. I've always thought of Bartok as being a rhythmic and percussive composer like Stravinsky (especially early Stravinsky), so the First Piano Concerto in particular appeals to me.


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## brotagonist

A coincidence it is that Bartók's _Sonata for 2 Pianos and Percussion_ should be brought up. I am shopping for more Bartók (I used to have a number more on LP, but I think I might get some other works instead). Consequently, I chanced upon just that piece, that had previously been unknown to me, and I was completely blown away by what I heard.


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## KenOC

I've never found the _Sonata for 2 Pianos and Percussion_ problematic. Just remember that it *is* a sonata and it will all make sense. Quite a fun piece, too.


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## tdc

KenOC said:


> I've never found the _Sonata for 2 Pianos and Percussion_ problematic. Just remember that it *is* a sonata and it will all make sense. Quite a fun piece, too.


Good point. I think because I mostly enjoy Baroque music and 20th century a piece being in sonata form does not necessarily make it any more or less accessible to me. This is true also because when I started listening to classical music I did so viscerally without attempting to understand much of the structure. In fact I think I often struggle with the development sections of some sonata form pieces, as well as some theme and variations type works, as they seem to at times lack forward momentum to me.

But listening to the piece again keeping that in mind (duh) is actually helping me. I'm enjoying it and I agree it is a fun piece, its never been a piece I've actually disliked, I've just had difficulty with the structure and grasping the underlying essence and cohesion of it.


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## KenOC

tdc said:


> Good point. I think because I mostly enjoy Baroque music and 20th century a piece being in sonata form does not necessarily make it any more or less accessible to me.


And a good point for you! I pretty much grew up on classical-period music, so a sonata-form structure is almost second nature in my listening. I sometimes forget that other people are coming from other places.


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## millionrainbows

Mahlerian said:


> What is the difference in result between 12-tone writing, and, say, linear polyphony, in which the harmonic results between two lines are more or less irrelevant to harmonic direction and progression? How is one less "harmonic" than the other? .


Well, to begin with, the ordered row insures non-repetition of notes; it skews it towards total chromaticism.


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## Mahlerian

millionrainbows said:


> Well, to begin with, the ordered row insures non-repetition of notes; it skews it towards total chromaticism.


Unless the ordered row contains repeated notes, or is based on a diatonic, rather than a chromatic, paradigm. Does anyone think that this either a) does not sound like serial music or b) does not sound tonal?






You've also failed to indicate why this is a problem that makes music less "harmonically based", unless your definition of "harmonic" precludes chromaticism (in which case I would simply ask, based on _what_?). A non-repeating series can have obvious tone-centric (as in Berg's Violin Concerto) or polarizing (as in Schoenberg's Suite) properties. I've written 12-tone music myself. It's like writing anything else, in that you have plenty of organizational freedom to decide, by ear, what should follow what.


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## millionrainbows

Mahlerian said:


> What is the difference in result between 12-tone writing, and, say, linear polyphony, in which the harmonic results between two lines are more or less irrelevant to harmonic direction and progression? How is one less "harmonic" than the other? A piece of music is only as harmonically-driven as the composer makes it, and in my opinion, if you give up functional tonality, all harmonic successions work by assertion more than anything else.


You must mean "linear polyphony" back in the post-Gregorian chant days. Organum is not harmony, like Bach or Brahms. Clear this point up first.............

If "early" independent-line polyphony is what you mean, then that's melodically-based music, which existed before harmony had developed.
First we must agree on what "harmonic music" is. You are implying that it is is based on traditional functions of tonality, but I have a more general, inclusive definition of what can be harmonically functional.

For example, in jazz, the "modes" of the harmonic minor scale are used, with triads built on each step of the scale. This is as legitimately "harmonic" in function as the tonal functions built on a diatonic scale. "Triads built on scale steps" is a principle that has been extrapolated from traditional tonality. This process can be done with any scale.



> Your distinction between "harmonic" and "serial" music makes no sense to me. I think you are both underestimating the difference between Bartok and the music of the 19th century, and overestimating the difference between Bartok and Webern. I would not criticize someone for their not appreciating music like Bartok's.


You need to say _why _this is. I already have; serial rows are ordered, and this serves two purposes: to create constant interval relations, creating "templates" of melodic succession, or "themes" as Schoenberg used them; and all 12 notes must be used before any note can be returned to, which insures a total chromaticism, without preference for any particular note.

Also, serial rows are based on horizontal successions of notes: there is no "function" derived from the series in a harmonically functional, horizontal sense. There is no horizontal "resolving of tension" which occurs in-time, as there is in tonality. Remember, the horizontal resolving of tension depends on the harmonic hierarchy of chord functions related to a "key" note. Serial notes are related only by interval-distance to the immediately preceding and following note only.


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## millionrainbows

Mahlerian said:


> Unless the ordered row contains repeated notes, or is based on a diatonic, rather than a chromatic, paradigm.


Tonal melodies are usually based on *returns *to a note. More often than not,* tonal melodies depart, then return to a note, *reinforcing that note, and creating a tonal sense.

Serial composition allows repetition of a row-note, but_ one cannot return to that repeated pitch until the rest of the row has been stated._ This is a poor way to create a tonal reference, compared to the freedom to _*return *_to a note.

I made a case in another thread as to the futility of using tone-rows to emulate tonal devices.



> You've also failed to indicate why this is a problem that makes music less "harmonically based", unless your definition of "harmonic" precludes chromaticism (in which case I would simply ask, based on _what_?). A non-repeating series can have obvious tone-centric (as in Berg's Violin Concerto) or polarizing (as in Schoenberg's Suite) properties. I've written 12-tone music myself. It's like writing anything else, in that you have plenty of organizational freedom to decide, by ear, what should follow what.


Chromatic tonal music is at the end of the tonal spectrum; it is the most ambiguously tonal condition of tonality. In this sense, it is really not "tone-centric" to the ear, since there is no definite key area established, either theoretically, or for the ear. Chromaticism is "tonal" because it is* in reference *to tonality, and uses the same devices and harmonic devices as tonality; not because it is tone-centric, or, ironically, even because it establishes a tonality.

Serialism does not reference tonality; it is ordered, and cannot use "indexes" of scale notes as tonality does.


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## lupinix

millionrainbows said:


> You must mean "linear polyphony" back in the Gregorian chant days, not Bach or Brahms. Clear this point up first.
> 
> If "early" independent-line polyphony is what you mean, then that's melodically-based music, which existed before harmony had developed.
> First we must agree on what "harmonic music" is. You are implying that it is is based on traditional functions of tonality, but I have a more general, inclusive definition of what can be harmonically functional.
> 
> For example, in jazz, the "modes" of the harmonic minor scale are used, with triads built on each step of the scale. This is as legitimately "harmonic" in function as the tonal functions built on a diatonic scale. "Triads built on scale steps" is a principle that has been extrapolated from traditional tonality. This process can be done with any scale.
> 
> You need to say _why _this is. I already have; serial rows are ordered, and this serves two purposes: to create constant interval relations, creating "templates" of melodic succession, or "themes" as Schoenberg used them; and all 12 notes must be used before any note can be returned to, which insures a total chromaticism, without preference for any particular note.
> 
> Also, serial rows are based on horizontal successions of notes: there is no "function" derived from the series in a harmonically functional, horizontal sense. There is no horizontal "resolving of tension" which occurs in-time, as there is in tonality. Remember, the horizontal resolving of tension depends on the harmonic hierarchy of chord functions related to a "key" note. Serial notes are related only by interval-distance to the immediately preceding and following note only.


bach isnt lineair polyphony, it is polyphony of course, but harmonic polyphony, also he explained what he meant quite well imo
also, gregorian chant itself was always monophone, polyophonic music in medieval times are for instance motets and trecento-madrigals and some kinds of organum


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## millionrainbows

Linear polyphony? How did we get off on this subject?

Schoenberg's music is not tonal when he's using tone-rows; it's as simple as that. If what you think you hear is tonality, then it's an illusion. At best, serial rows can sound like total chromaticism, but even total chromaticism is not absolute; it will deviate from total non-repetition at some point, and be revealed as tonal in nature.

Debussy's music is tonal, even if it is functionless. It's too rooted in tonality and the devices of tonality.

Bartok made and even more decisive departure from traditional tonality, but he's still tonal: he uses devices of tonality. The way he divides the octave into 2, 3, and 4 parts is not traditional, but it creates "stations" of tonal reference that, while often vague, shifting, and interchangeable, is still tonal.

The over-riding "harmonic" nature of Bartok and Debussy's music reinforces the "tonal" sense we get from it.


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## Cosmos

I'm not too familiar with his music, but I do love his Concerto for Orchestra. And his string quartets hold a darker place in my heart


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## Mahlerian

millionrainbows said:


> The over-riding "harmonic" nature of Bartok and Debussy's music reinforces the "tonal" sense we get from it.


You repeat this over and over, but you are misinterpreting what I am saying.



millionrainbows said:


> First we must agree on what "harmonic music" is. You are implying that it is is based on traditional functions of tonality, but I have a more general, inclusive definition of what can be harmonically functional.


No. I am saying _all_ music is harmonic music, as you define it.

Your arguments give us no support for your conclusion, viz.

1. Harmonic music is music in which an underlying tone or tones are heard as central.
2. Thus, modal and tonal musics of all kinds are harmonic in nature. *Actually, even this doesn't follow from the above, because it doesn't allow for bad music, in which a tonality is not properly established.*
3. Serialism is music in which all of the notes are heard before one is repeated *False, but even if it weren't...*
4. This prevents any one note from being heard as central. *This doesn't follow from the above, in addition to being false. Furthermore, your definition of harmonic music doesn't require a single note to be heard as central, so it's entirely irrelevant.*
5. Therefore Serial music is non-harmonic by its nature, and any exceptions are being misheard. *Misheard by people like Stravinsky, Webern, Bernstein, Copland, Schoenberg himself....*


----------



## millionrainbows

These "definitions" have been provided as if I made them. I did not. I will address them, before providing my thoughts on the question in another thread, which will also become my latest blog. Forgive the confusing nature of this exchange that follows, these are not my ideas. I was not quoted on any of these points.



> 1. Harmonic music is music in which an underlying tone or tones are heard as central.
> 2. Thus, modal and tonal musics of all kinds are harmonic in nature.
> *Actually, even this doesn't follow from the above, because it doesn't allow for bad music, in which a tonality is not properly established.*


*
*No, number 1 defines *tonality* in a general way. It follows that any tone-centric music is also tonal, as understood in this general way.


> 3. Serialism is music in which all of the notes are heard before one is repeated *False, but even if it weren't...*


*
*No, serialism is a* method *in which ordered rows are used, which removes the possibility of an *intrinsic* harmonic hierarchy which might lead to a sense of tonality. Of course, horses can be stuffed into suitcases. A sense of tonality could be created from the effects of this method, but that sense of tonality would not be intrinsic to the method: it would be illusory, or artistic effect.



> 4. This prevents any one note from being heard as central. *This doesn't follow from the above, in addition to being false. Furthermore, your definition of harmonic music doesn't require a single note to be heard as central, so it's entirely irrelevant.*


*

*No, ordered rows don't prevent one note from being heard as central, or from a sense of tonality from being alluded to, but the ordered row insures that all twelve notes are used before repeats. This does, you must admit, discourage any one note from being perceived as central. It eliminates the "redundancy" which creates tonality. Also, remember that *distinct tonalities are created by omission as well;* the reason the pentatonic scale sounds as it does is partly due to what it *omits: *it has no fourth.


> 5. Therefore Serial music is non-harmonic by its nature, and any exceptions are being misheard. *Misheard by people like Stravinsky, Webern, Bernstein, Copland, Schoenberg himself....*



No..."mis-hearing" is something that has nothing to do with my definition of what "harmonic" music is. All art is to a degree subjective, so if Stravinsky, Webern, Bernstein, Copland, and Schoenberg himself wish to hear certain serial music as tonal, then that is their own subjective reaction, but it does not provide a definition. See my latest thread about "harmonic" music, which I shall also use as a blog.


----------



## hpowders

Hey. Bela! It's just you and me here pal. Every one else is too busy putting down Lang Lang.
Anyhow, just want to say I love your string quartets, especially 3, 4 and 5.
By the way who's looking after Bluebeard's Castle, now that you aren't around?


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## hpowders

Hey Bela! It's me again! I have listened to 3 performances of your violin concerto #2, Mutter, Chung and Shaham.
I must say with all humility, this concerto is even greater than the Beethoven and the Brahms.
It is simply the greatest violin concerto ever written. Magnificent!

Regards,
hpowders


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## Ukko

hpowders said:


> Hey Bela! It's me again! I have listened to 3 performances of your violin concerto #2, Mutter, Chung and Shaham.
> I must say with all humility, this concerto is even greater than the Beethoven and the Brahms.
> It is simply the greatest violin concerto ever written. Magnificent!
> 
> Regards,
> hpowders


I think Szigeti recorded it. Gertler certainly did -

www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1gpMpsn5kM


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## millionrainbows

The String Quartets, by the Guarneri Quartet (2-CD Newton). The fifth sounds really good here.


Caution for perfectionist audiophiles: there are a few editing glitches on here. I'm afraid this is indicative of a growing trend in CD manufacture: 

....substitution of much more delicate CD-Rs for real, manufactured discs;

....Editing glitches: clipped entrances and endings;

....track index points sloppily placed;

....adjacent tracks intended for continuous play are interrupted and indexed as if separate.


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## science

This thread - http://www.talkclassical.com/31828-cycle-review-bartok.html - is a great discussion of his string quartets, unfortunately hidden in a corner of the forum that many of us don't visit too often!


----------



## Alypius

I would like to see if we get some more sustained discussions going in this section of the forum. So a proposal:

I'm going to post 10 works by individual composers (in this case, Bartók). I'll list them in personal order of preference. I'll follow each with a favorite performance. What I would ask is that when people follow up and respond, they do one of two things:

(a) Argue for alternative works to listen to.
AND / OR
(b) Argue for alternative / better performances of each.

My interest in this is partly personal and partly pedagogical. The pedagogical part is that when newcomers come and read these threads, it might help guide them to a basic core of must-listen-to works and must-listen-to performances. The personal part is that I might find better performances of personal favorites or get new perspectives on composers whose works I enjoy.

Here's my Bartok list:

*1. Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta (Sz 106) (1936)*. Performance: Fritz Reiner / Chicago Symphony, _Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra / Music for String Percussion and Celesta_ (RCA, 1955)

*2. String Quartet #4, Sz 91 (1928).* Performance: Takács Quartet, _Bartok: String Quartets_ (Decca, 1999).

*3. Concerto for Orchestra, Sz 116 (1943).* Performance: Ivan Fischer / Budapest Festival Orchestra, _Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra_ (Philips, 1999). Also brilliant is Fritz Reiner / Chicago Symphony (RCA, 1955)

*4. String Quartet #5, Sz 102 (1934).* Performance: Takács Quartet (Decca, 1999).

*5. Piano Concerto #1, Sz. 83 (1926)*. Performance: Kristian Zimerman / Pierre Boulez / Chicago Symphony, _Bartok: Piano Concertos_ (Deutsche Grammophon, 2005) (reissued in _Pierre Boulez Conducts Bartók_ box set (DG, 2009). An excellent older recording is Géza Anda / Ferenc Fricsay / Radio-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin (Deutsche Grammophon).

*6. Violin Concerto #2, Sz. 112 (1938).* Performance: James Ehnes / Gianandrea Noseda / BBC Philharmonic, _Bartok: Violin Concertos #1 & #2 / Viola Concerto_ (Chandos, 2011).

*7. Divertimento for String Orchestra, Sz. 113 (1939).* Performance: Pierre Boulez / Chicago Symphony, _Divertimento / Dance Suite_ (Deutsche Grammophon, 1995) (reissued in _Pierre Boulez Conducts Bartók_ box set (DG, 2009).

*8. The Miraculous Mandarin, Sz. 73 (1919)*. Performance: Ivan Fischer / Budapest Festival Orchestra, _Bartok: Miraculous Mandarin_ (Complete Ballet) (Philips, 1998).

*9. Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion, Sz. 110 (1937).* Performance: Martha Argerich / Nelson Freire / Peter Sadlo / Edgar Guggeis, _Martha Argerich - The Collection 3: Chamber Ensembles_ (Deutsche Grammophon, 2010). An orchestral version is also available in _Pierre Boulez Conducts Bartók_ box set (DG, 2009).

*10. Dance Suite, Sz. 77 (1925)*. Performance: Pierre Boulez / Chicago Symphony, _Divertimento / Dance Suite_ (Deutsche Grammophon, 1995) (reissued in _Pierre Boulez Conducts Bartók_ box set (DG, 2009).


----------



## Ukko

Alypius said:


> I would like to see if we get some more sustained discussions going in this section of the forum. So a proposal:
> 
> I'm going to post 10 works by individual composers (in this case, Bartók). I'll list them in personal order of preference. I'll follow each with a favorite performance. What I would ask is that when people follow up and respond, they do one of two things:
> 
> (a) Argue for alternative works to listen to.
> AND / OR
> (b) Argue for alternative / better performances of each.
> 
> My interest in this is partly personal and partly pedagogical. The pedagogical part is that when newcomers come and read these threads, it might help guide them to a basic core of must-listen-to works and must-listen-to performances. The personal part is that I might find better performances of personal favorites or get new perspectives on composers whose works I enjoy.
> 
> Here's my Bartok list:
> 
> *1. Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta (Sz 106) (1936)*. Performance: Fritz Reiner / Chicago Symphony, _Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra / Music for String Percussion and Celesta_ (RCA, 1955)
> 
> *2. String Quartet #4, Sz 91 (1928).* Performance: Takács Quartet, _Bartok: String Quartets_ (Decca, 1999).
> 
> *3. Concerto for Orchestra, Sz 116 (1943).* Performance: Ivan Fischer / Budapest Festival Orchestra, _Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra_ (Philips, 1999). Also brilliant is Fritz Reiner / Chicago Symphony (RCA, 1955)
> 
> **** Boulez/New York Philharmonic. The layers are there. ****
> 
> *4. String Quartet #5, Sz 102 (1934).* Performance: Takács Quartet (Decca, 1999).
> 
> *5. Piano Concerto #1, Sz. 83 (1926)*. Performance: Kristian Zimerman / Pierre Boulez / Chicago Symphony, _Bartok: Piano Concertos_ (Deutsche Grammophon, 2005) (reissued in _Pierre Boulez Conducts Bartók_ box set (DG, 2009). An excellent older recording is Géza Anda / Ferenc Fricsay / Radio-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin (Deutsche Grammophon).
> 
> **** The Zimerman/Boulez is a really bad interpretation. Kocsis/Fischer is the, ah, reference recording, Anda/Fricsay is the _old_ reference. ****
> 
> *6. Violin Concerto #2, Sz. 112 (1938).* Performance: James Ehnes / Gianandrea Noseda / BBC Philharmonic, _Bartok: Violin Concertos #1 & #2 / Viola Concerto_ (Chandos, 2011).
> 
> **** Gertler is required listening in this. ****
> 
> *7. Divertimento for String Orchestra, Sz. 113 (1939).* Performance: Pierre Boulez / Chicago Symphony, _Divertimento / Dance Suite_ (Deutsche Grammophon, 1995) (reissued in _Pierre Boulez Conducts Bartók_ box set (DG, 2009).
> 
> *8. The Miraculous Mandarin, Sz. 73 (1919)*. Performance: Ivan Fischer / Budapest Festival Orchestra, _Bartok: Miraculous Mandarin_ (Complete Ballet) (Philips, 1998).
> 
> *9. Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion, Sz. 110 (1937).* Performance: Martha Argerich / Nelson Freire / Peter Sadlo / Edgar Guggeis, _Martha Argerich - The Collection 3: Chamber Ensembles_ (Deutsche Grammophon, 2010). An orchestral version is also available in _Pierre Boulez Conducts Bartók_ box set (DG, 2009).
> 
> **** The Brothers Kontarsky made a fine recording of this, with very important work by the percussionists (whose names of course I don't remember). The orchestral version of this work is a major letdown. ****
> 
> *10. Dance Suite, Sz. 77 (1925)*. Performance: Pierre Boulez / Chicago Symphony, _Divertimento / Dance Suite_ (Deutsche Grammophon, 1995) (reissued in _Pierre Boulez Conducts Bartók_ box set (DG, 2009).


Boulez in his younger days (but after he wised up) was a fine interpreter of Bartók.


----------



## Clementine

I'm not up to snuff on my recordings, but if I had to list my 10 Bartok desert islands pieces, they'd be similar to what you've got, just in a different order:

*1. String Quartet #4* for its incredible idiomatic and inventive writing, sound structure, and uncompromising personality.

*2. Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta* for its highly original mood and atmosphere, a dark gem of a piece that stands apart from anything else.

_*3. Violin Concerto #2*_ as a piece that defies expectations and brings Bartok into a whole new realm of folsky avant-garde mixed with flamboyant romanticism.

_*4. String Quartet #5*_ as the chamber counterpart to the aforementioned Violin Concerto - just as strange, beautiful, and original.

*5. Bluebeard's Castle* as Bartok's first masterpiece, it's still shedding more overt influences from Debussy and Wagner, but Bluebeard nonetheless remains a compelling drama, and inspired countless composers to value the story as much as the music.

*6. String Quartet #6* for seamlessly transitioning Bartok's music into his more accessible final phase, and proving that he could be just as haunting without dissonance or inventive textures.

*7. Concerto for Orchestra* for its brilliant orchestration, catchy tunes, and because it's just a lot of fun.

*8. Piano Concerto #3* for its absolutely heartbreaking middle movement, made all the more painful by its light exterior.

*9. String Quartet #2* for its seamless blend of Bartok's earlier folk-mixed-with-Debussy style, and the more wild, mature Bartok.

*10. Divertimento for Strings* for its energy, and masterful writing.


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## ptr

Alypius said:


> (a) Argue for alternative works to listen to.
> AND / OR
> (b) Argue for alternative / better performances of each.


The only black hole in Your list is that it completely lack any solo piano works! Not least because it is one of the most important parts of Bartok's oeuvre, he was a pianist himself, not least important, I actually feel that every note he wrote has the basic genus of coming from the mind of a pianist! 
I would perhaps dump the Dance Suite, Sz. 77 (1925), in favour of the complete Mikrokosmos Sz. 107, BB 105 (1926-39), not least because it says a lot about his research into fragmentarisation of folk music. Zoltan Kosics is the modern reference (Philips).

For the orchestral stuff I hold Ferenc Fricsay and Rafael Kubelik as sort of old school reference standard in interpretation, for me they range above both Boulez and Reiner in the Concerto for Orchestra, Divertimento and the MfSSC.

Otherwise I think Your list is very servicable!

/ptr


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## Mandryka

*1. Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta (Sz 106) (1936)*. Bruno Maderna

*2. String Quartet #4, Sz 91 (1928).* Tatrai

*4. String Quartet #5, Sz 102 (1934).* Performance: Zehetmair

*8. The Miraculous Mandarin, Sz. 73 (1919)*. Rosbaud, Maderna (Suite)

*9. Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion, Sz. 110 (1937).* Ditta Pasztory

These are the ones I find the most satisfying.

For piano I would urge Jerome Lewenthal, Jenő Jandó and Gyorgy Sandor.


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## Alypius

ptr said:


> The only black hole in Your list is that it completely lack any solo piano works! Not least because it is one of the most important parts of Bartok's oeuvre, he was a pianist himself, not least important, I actually feel that every note he wrote has the basic genus of coming from the mind of a pianist!
> I would perhaps dump the Dance Suite, Sz. 77 (1925), in favour of the complete Mikrokosmos Sz. 107, BB 105 (1926-39), not least because it says a lot about his research into fragmentarisation of folk music. Zoltan Kosics is the modern reference (Philips).
> 
> For the orchestral stuff I hold Ferenc Fricsay and Rafael Kubelik as sort of old school reference standard in interpretation, for me they range above both Boulez and Reiner in the Concerto for Orchestra, Divertimento and the MfSSC.
> 
> Otherwise I think Your list is very servicable!
> 
> /ptr


ptr, I agree in many ways. I love Zoltan Kocsis' box set. My problem was singling out one work, perhaps two. I have the same problem with Debussy's piano works. I love them as a whole and yet, when one singles out this or that, their brilliance is less obvious. They are mostly brilliant little diamonds. Perhaps one could cite _Out of Doors_, perhaps the _Piano Sonata_. So much of _Mikrokosmos_ is pedagogical -- brilliant pedagogy! -- but seems less a work for listening. In terms of piano works that display his unique folk music interests, the musicological analyses of the _Bagatelles_ by Richard Taruskin have shown me how much I underestimated their brilliance, their significance. The _Bagatelles_ are a sort of laboratory in which one can see Bartok hone his craft and chart the contours of his radical originality. So, I guess, let me just extol the whole batch of his solo piano works.


----------



## ptr

Alypius said:


> ptr, I agree in many ways. I love Zoltan Kocsis' box set. My problem was singling out one work, perhaps two. I have the same problem with Debussy's piano works. I love them as a whole and yet, when one singles out this or that, their brilliance is less obvious. They are mostly brilliant little diamonds. Perhaps one could cite _Out of Doors_, perhaps the _Piano Sonata_. So much of _Mikrokosmos_ is pedagogical -- brilliant pedagogy! -- but seems less a work for listening. In terms of piano works that display his unique folk music interests, the musicological analyses of the _Bagatelles_ by Richard Taruskin have shown me how much I underestimated their brilliance, their significance. The _Bagatelles_ are a sort of laboratory in which one can see Bartok hone his craft and chart the contours of his radical originality. So, I guess, let me just extol the whole batch of his solo piano works.


I think we can agree on that Bartok's piano music should be performed a lot more, I treasure my boxed sets with György Sandor and Zoltan Kosics, as well as what I have with Geza Anda and Andor Foldes, I would love if ECM would be so forward thinking as to coerce Andras Schiff into recording some or all of it!

My suggestion of "Mikrokosmos" was mostly based on it being a journey from the utterly simple to the impossible intricate! I'm up for alternatives!

/ptr


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## Ukko

ptr said:


> I think we can agree on that Bartok's piano music should be performed a lot more, I treasure my boxed sets with György Sandor and Zoltan Kosics, as well as what I have with Geza Anda and Andor Foldes, I would love if ECM would be so forward thinking as to coerce Andras Schiff into recording some or all of it!
> 
> My suggestion of "Mikrokosmos" was mostly based on it being a journey from the utterly simple to the impossible intricate! I'm up for alternatives!
> 
> /ptr


Deszo Ranki has made some excellent recordings - including the Mikrokosmos. I much prefer his interpretations to those of Andor Foldes and György Sandor. Andras Schiff is OK in Bartók, but he has a tendency to underplay dynamics.

[Pianist Preference can lead to fractious posts. My go-to guys and gals may be also-recorded-it folks for you.]


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## Alypius

ptr said:


> I think we can agree on that Bartok's piano music should be performed a lot more, I treasure my boxed sets with György Sandor and Zoltan Kosics, as well as what I have with Geza Anda and Andor Foldes, I would love if ECM would be so forward thinking as to coerce Andras Schiff into recording some or all of it!
> 
> My suggestion of "Mikrokosmos" was mostly based on it being a journey from the utterly simple to the impossible intricate! I'm up for alternatives!
> 
> /ptr


I agree about coercing Andras Schiff. We should start a letter-writing campaign to Manfred Eicher (head of ECM) demanding that Schiff be compelled to give us a Bartok _opera omnia_


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## ptr

Ukko said:


> Deszo Ranki has made some excellent recordings - including the Mikrokosmos. I much prefer his interpretations to those of Andor Foldes and György Sandor. Andras Schiff is OK in Bartók, but he has a tendency to underplay dynamics.


Ränki slipped my mind (  ), I'll have to pull out my Telefunken and Hungaroton LP's as they have been collecting dust far to long! 

/ptr


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## Mandryka

Ukko said:


> Deszo Ranki has made some excellent recordings - including the Mikrokosmos. I much prefer his interpretations to those of Andor Foldes and György Sandor. Andras Schiff is OK in Bartók, but he has a tendency to underplay dynamics.
> 
> [Pianist Preference can lead to fractious posts. My go-to guys and gals may be also-recorded-it folks for you.]


I've always wanted to meet someone who had heard Ranki play mikrokosmos, so thanks for posting that. I shall have to buy the recording.

I have an excellent Ranki recording with Out of Doors in 2010, but I tend to only enjoy his more recent works, so I was a bit wary of buying the mikrokosmos. I'll be happy to let you have it privately.

Mikrokosmos 5 and 6 has become something I really enjoy. As have the three etudes.


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## Oliver

Can someone explain why the 2nd Violin Concerto is considered avant-garde? I absolutely love it. I've listened to it hundreds of times, though for some reason it took me a long time to get into. I don't actually know why I kept listening to it at first, but I'm glad I did.

My preferred recording is Kyung-Wha Chung/Solti.


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## hpowders

Oliver said:


> Can someone explain why the 2nd Violin Concerto is considered avant-garde? I absolutely love it. I've listened to it hundreds of times, though for some reason it took me a long time to get into. I don't actually know why I kept listening to it at first, but I'm glad I did.
> 
> My preferred recording is Ashkenazy/Solti.


I didn't realize Ashkenazy was also a violin virtuoso as well as a tickler of the ivories.

Perhaps you mean Ms. Kyung-Wha Chung as soloist with Solti? :tiphat:

I love it too. In addition to the Chung, I also have it with Shaham and another by Mutter.


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## Oliver

hpowders said:


> I didn't realize Ashkenazy was also a violin virtuoso as well as a tickler of the ivories.
> 
> Perhaps you mean Ms. Kyung-Wha Chung as soloist with Solti? :tiphat:
> 
> I love it too. In addition to the Chung, I also have it with Shaham and Mutter too.


Oh yes, I meant Kyung-Wha Chung as the violinist. (The piano concerto's are on the same CD)


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## Mahlerian

Oliver said:


> Can someone explain why the 2nd Violin Concerto is considered avant-garde?


During his time, Béla Bartók, alongside composers such as Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Hindemith, Varese, Prokofiev, Berg, and so forth, was considered among the "ultra-moderns", a group (in critics' minds) that wrote fiercely dissonant music that flew in the face of inherited tradition.

Now, of course, much of this music has become accepted in the concert halls, and any of it can be presented without incident, but at the time it was considered quite radical. Time tends to make many things that were considered completely against tradition (Mahler, Debussy, Strainsky, Bartok) into an accepted part of that tradition.

Bartok's music is certainly modernist, and it's not organized according to major-minor tonality, though it's not based around full chromaticism, as in that of Schoenberg and his students. It uses idiosyncratic features of folk music as its base. That said, the Second Violin Concerto does employ a theme using all twelve notes of the chromatic scale, though this is not treated as a tone row.


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## hpowders

The Bartok Concerto #2 is my favorite violin concerto. No other violin concerto comes close.
Being a conservative listener, this tells you, radically modern, it simply cannot be, Oliver.


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## Vaneyes

Piano Concerti 1 - 3, w. Anda/Fricsay
Concerto for Two Pianos, Percussion & Orchestra, w. Argerich/Freire/Zinman et al
Violin Concerto 1, w. Kremer/Boulez
Violin Concerto 2, w. Shaham/Boulez
Viola Concerto, w. Bashmet/Boulez
String Quartets (Complete), w. ABQ
Sonata for Two Pianos & Percussion, w. Argerich/Kovacevich et al
Concerto for Orchestra, w. ACO/Dorati
"Mandarin", "Celesta", w. OSM/Dutoit
Various chamber/solo works, w. Kocsis, Solchany, Mutter, Mullova, Boffard, Kovacevich, Argerich :tiphat:


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## Ukko

Vaneyes said:


> Piano Concerti 1 - 3, w. Anda/Fricsay
> Concerto for Two Pianos, Percussion & Orchestra, w. Argerich/Freire/Zinman et al
> Violin Concerto 1, w. Kremer/Boulez
> Violin Concerto 2, w. Shaham/Boulez
> Viola Concerto, w. Bashmet/Boulez
> String Quartets (Complete), w. ABQ
> Sonata for Two Pianos & Percussion, w. Argerich/Kovacevich et al
> Concerto for Orchestra, w. ACO/Dorati
> "Mandarin", "Celesta", w. OSM/Dutoit
> Various chamber/solo works, w. Kocsis, Solchany, Mutter, Mullova, Boffard, Kovacevich, Argerich :tiphat:




It's easy to tell that Vaneyes is a leftcoaster. I think it's the cannabis in the smog that does it.


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## Vaneyes

Ukko said:


> It's easy to tell that Vaneyes is a leftcoaster. I think it's *the cannabis* in the smog that does it.


Hillary for Prez.


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## hreichgott

Alypius said:


> musicological analyses of the _Bagatelles_ by Richard Taruskin have shown me how much I underestimated their brilliance, their significance. The _Bagatelles_ are a sort of laboratory in which one can see Bartok hone his craft and chart the contours of his radical originality.


Totally with you on the bagatelles. Have been playing them for a couple of years. I have Bartok's comments on them but not the Taruskin analyses you mention. Where can they be found? thanks


----------



## Alypius

hreichgott said:


> Totally with you on the bagatelles. Have been playing them for a couple of years. I have Bartok's comments on them but not the Taruskin analyses you mention. Where can they be found? thanks


Heather, Taruskin's analyses are found in:

Richard Taruskin, _Music in the Early Twentieth Century_, vol. 4 of _The Oxford History of Western Music_ (New York: Oxford University Press, 2005), pp. 380-391.

He uses the _Bagatelles_ as an entryway into his larger analysis of Bartok's compositions. His chapter on Bartok begins a bit earlier: on p. 365. It is interesting to watch how he uses the analyses of the Bagatelles as a doorway into his analysis of _Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta_.

Also check out Victoria Fischer, "Piano Music: Teaching Pieces and Folksong Arrangements," in _The Cambridge Companion to Bartok_, ed. Amanda Bayley (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2001), pp. 92-103. (it's chapter 6 of the volume).

Hope that proves helpful.


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## Vaneyes

Bartok Memorial House website.

http://www.bartokmuseum.hu/memorialhouse.html


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## hreichgott

Thanks Alypius. Now I have a book to read 
Laboratory is a great word. The first two bagatelles especially are like experiments: can one write this and have it come out as coherent music? and of course, because he's a great composer, it isn't just coherent, it's wonderful to listen to.
My favorite might be no. 4, with the Hungarian folk tune arranged like a Bach chorale except with Bartokian harmony... ending with what sounds like a setup for a Picardy third, and then it just isn't. Maybe it is pulling the audience's leg a little bit. I have never minded.


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## Clementine

hpowders said:


> The Bartok Concerto #2 is my favorite violin concerto. No other violin concerto comes close.
> Being a conservative listener, this tells you, radically modern, it simply cannot be, Oliver.


Well it was written in 1938, so don't worry - it can still be modern, and you can still be conservative.

The innovations lie mostly in the structure - all three movements are theme and variations, with the third being variations on the first movement. Also, considering that many composers had moved towards neo-classicism that decade (Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Copland), at the time, the Bartok was more on the cusp of things harmonically.


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## hpowders

Clementine said:


> Well it was written in 1938, so don't worry - it can still be modern, and you can still be conservative.
> 
> The innovations lie mostly in the structure - all three movements are theme and variations, with the third being variations on the first movement. Also, considering that many composers had moved towards neo-classicism that decade (Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Copland), at the time, the Bartok was more on the cusp of things harmonically.


It's a haunting work, as fine as the Beethoven and Brahms, in my opinion.


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## millionrainbows

Mahlerian said:


> During his time, Béla Bartók, alongside composers such as Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Hindemith, Varese, Prokofiev, Berg, and so forth, was considered among the "ultra-moderns", a group (in critics' minds) that wrote fiercely dissonant music that flew in the face of inherited tradition.
> 
> Now, of course, much of this music has become accepted in the concert halls, and any of it can be presented without incident, but at the time it was considered quite radical. Time tends to make many things that were considered completely against tradition (Mahler, Debussy, Strainsky, Bartok) into an accepted part of that tradition.
> 
> Bartok's music is certainly modernist, and it's not organized according to major-minor tonality, though it's not based around full chromaticism, as in that of Schoenberg and his students. It uses idiosyncratic features of folk music as its base. That said, the Second Violin Concerto does employ a theme using all twelve notes of the chromatic scale, though this is not treated as a tone row.


It's modernist because it uses geometric/numerical ideas, rather than acoustic ideas.


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## KenOC

millionrainbows said:


> It's modernist because it uses geometric/numerical ideas, rather than acoustic ideas.


If Bartok had limited his musical ideas to "geometric/numerical" ones, I suspect that few of us would ever have heard of him.


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## Ukko

KenOC said:


> If Bartok had limited his musical ideas to "geometric/numerical" ones, I suspect that few of us would ever have heard of him.


I suspect that Bartók started with specific 'acoustic' ideas, figured out how to represent them 'geometric/numerically', and then experimented with those to see what would work 'acoustically'.


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## Mandryka

ptr said:


> Ränki slipped my mind (  ), I'll have to pull out my Telefunken and Hungaroton LP's as they have been collecting dust far to long!
> 
> /ptr


I listened to Ranki play Book 6 of Mikrokosmos on a transfer on a label called Apex. I thought the piano tone was cold and nasty and unnatural, and the performances clinical and inhumane and workmanlike. Maybe the LPs will reveal something greater.


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## Mandryka

Does anyone have the LP of Kovacevich playing Book 6 of Mikrokosmos, or can anyone see it for sale? If so I would be happy to have a transfer made to a digital format, at my expense.


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## millionrainbows

_* Originally Posted by millionrainbows:
*_
_*It's modernist because it uses geometric/numerical ideas, rather than acoustic ideas.*_



KenOC said:


> If Bartok had* limited *his musical ideas to "geometric/numerical" ones, I suspect that few of us would ever have heard of him.


mosquito: Mine was not an absolutist statement; I never said he was limited to that.

You don't understand the implications of geometric division of the octave as opposed to acoustic tonality hierarchy, or you wouldn't have tried to invalidate. Read a book.


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## Cheyenne

millionrainbows said:


> You don't understand the implications of geometric division of the octave as opposed to acoustic tonality hierarchy


I love this forum. I don't understand this sentence, but it sounds great!


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## hpowders

Cheyenne said:


> I love this forum. I don't understand this sentence, but it sounds great!


Uh....yeah. :lol::lol::lol:


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## Ukko

Cheyenne said:


> I love this forum. I don't understand this sentence, but it sounds great!


The problem portion of the sentence is "You don't understand the implications". Chances are good that "implications" is the wrong word for the sentence as composed. _Million_ could have suggested that geometric treatment of the octave was a paradigm shift. That would have been worse.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Well, a lot of it just 'naturally' arises from his polymodal chromaticism, perhaps inspired by the modality of the folk musics he studied. One of his many wonders are his ever-modulating melodies, which rarely sound like the melodies of the Second Viennese School. I highly doubt most of the 'abstract explanations'.


----------



## Ukko

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Well, a lot of it just 'naturally' arises from his polymodal chromaticism, perhaps inspired by the modality of the folk musics he studied. One of his many wonders are his ever-modulating melodies, which rarely sound like the melodies of the Second Viennese School. I highly doubt most of the 'abstract explanations'.


I agree (if it's what you're saying) that many 'abstract' (nuts and bolts?) explanations for creations artistic and otherwise are constructions-after-the-fact. However, I have no problem with the notion that Bartók examined music seven ways from Sunday, in order to understand both the what and the why of it. Some of the early manipulations/manglings he made of the peasant music he recorded lend credence to that possibility.


----------



## Oliver

Listening to his Romanian Folk Dances, so beautiful!


----------



## Ian Moore

Some of the wildest string quartets ever.


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## Blake

Not sure what it is, but I recently became fascinated with Bartok. Really enjoying Boulez's interpretations of some of the orchestral works.


----------



## Weston

Vesuvius said:


> Not sure what it is, but I recently became fascinated with Bartok. Really enjoying Boulez's interpretations of some of the orchestral works.


I've just downloaded the digital version of the Boulez / CSO Bartok Cantata Profana and The Wooden Prince, (the same CD series you've just recently posted in current listening). The samples sound great! I can hardly wait to dig into this album.


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## Blake

Weston said:


> I've just downloaded the digital version of the Boulez / CSO Bartok Cantata Profana and The Wooden Prince, (the same CD series you've just recently posted in current listening). The samples sound great! I can hardly wait to dig into this album.


I'm enjoying it quite a lot. I have several albums from that series. Hope you enjoy, as well. :tiphat:


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## Blake

By the way, anyone check out the violin work series with James Ehnes? Pretty excellent.


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## deprofundis

*bela bartok*

Im looking for classical composers that share is range in sound and ambience has
Music for celestia and percussion,it had a strong impact on me.

Should i venture more into bartok or try Zoltan Kodaly? dont know mutch about him.
maybe you guys have other great name in hungarians composers?

Have a nice day :tiphat:


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## joen_cph

*Kodaly* isn´t quite on the level of intensity found in that Bartok work, except from the _Cello Solo Sonata_, IMHO.

Some *Sandor Veress* might be worth exploring - here a concerto for strings, piano & percussion, obviously somewhat influenced by the Bartok work 




*Laszlo Lajtha*: rather conservative by comparison; the 9th Symphony could perhaps be a relevant option. Lots of percussion. The 4th is entertaining, but very different (the Ferencsik recordings are the best ones).

There are dozens of folklore-inspired 20th Century Hungarian composers, but they tend to be more traditional and less edgy - including *Gyula David, Pal Kadosa, Gyorgy Kosa*, *Janos Viski*, *Ferenc Farkas*, *Leo Weiner* etc.

I like the *Andras Mihaly* I´ve heard, though he´s also quite traditional; Cello Concerto: 





*Ligeti* is an iconoclast (though going through varied phases, the earlier works being less controversial). But his two string quartets might attract you.

Polish _Lutoslawski_ and _Bacewicz_ might be even better options along your taste ;-).


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## KenOC

deprofundis said:


> Im looking for classical composers that share is range in sound and ambience has
> Music for celestia and percussion,it had a strong impact on me.


Given that MSP&C is one of the two or three finest works of the century, you may be looking for a while. Keep us informed, please!


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## PetrB

Their are several other Bartok works I think are equals in 'intensity,' as you put it, while there is still only one _Music for Stringed Instruments, Percussion and Celesta,_ just as from Stravinsky there is only one _Le Sacre du Printemps._ Both composers have a number of other (imo) equally great masterworks, but for each, the two pieces named so far are in a zenith of 20th century musical accomplishments.

The first and third movement of _Music for Stringed Instruments, Percussion and Celesta_ are one aspect of Bartok's personality, and that characteristic sound is called "night music."

The Second Movement of his _Piano Concerto No. 2_ is another lovely and fine example of Bartokian "night music."

_Cantata Profana_, for large orchestra, double chorus, tenor soloist. 
This is a major large-scale work, imo 'the most neglected of Bartok's several masterworks," and another darkly beautiful score.

His one-act Opera, _Bluebeard's Castle,_ again with a full orchestra, the singing cast limited to only two roles, tenor and soprano, is perhaps his most 'lush' score, while also being quite dramatic and dark. Trust me when I say you only want to hear these vocal works sung in their original Hungarian!

_The Mirculous Mandarin_, a ballet, sometimes spoken of as "Bartok's _Le Sacre du Printemps_." 
Listen first (and if I had my way, only) to the full length ballet, and not the more commonly performed and recorded reduced suite from the ballet.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Another composer you might like, whose works vary from piece to piece, is Bohuslav Martinů, a Czech, with a somewhat similar but different kind of musical 'Eastern European musical accent,' who was also early through mid 20th century modern. You might 
like to try the following:

_Toccata e Due Canzoni_ ~ Here is the first movement Toccata:





_Double Concerto for Two String Orchestras, Piano, and Timpani_





_The Frescoes of Piero della Francesca_, for full orchestra in three movements.


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## Richannes Wrahms

You could try Arnold Bax's Symphony No. 3 for the ambience. It isn't nearly as intense but it still got some ferocious tuba parts.


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## shed

Frank Martin's Petite symphonie concertante (



) and Ives' Central Park in the Dark (



) remind me of Bartok.


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## Naccio

What is Bartok's position or situation or relationship with the work of Schoenberg? As well as his sources for thematic and musical inspiration, the folkloric elements and classical experimentations with new elements & it's relation to the future possibilities of music today? Thank you


----------



## Alypius

Naccio said:


> What is Bartok's position or situation or relationship with the work of Schoenberg? As well as his sources for thematic and musical inspiration, the folkloric elements and classical experimentations with new elements & it's relation to the future possibilities of music today? Thank you


In answer to your questions, I would encourage you to go over and read through the posts on the "Cycle Review: Bartok" thread where I and others discuss this with an eye on Bartok's string quartets: 
http://www.talkclassical.com/31828-cycle-review-bartok.html

The following passage which focuses on the quartets explicates the relationship well. It is from Amanda Bailey, "The String Quartets and Works of Chamber Orchestra," _The Cambridge Companion to Bartok, Cambridge Guides to Music_ (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2007):

"The Six String Quartets offer a fascinating insight into the chronology of Bartók's musical style, as they span some thirty years of his compositional career. Their stylistic development is such that each Quartet is the culmination of a different phase of his artistic growth, focusing almost all his creative ideas and compositional techniques into a single genre. On the one hand they represent the continuation of a Classical tradition through an intensity of motivic writing that parallels Beethoven's, while on the other they reflect developments in musical language and a changing aesthetic during the first half of the twentieth century. *Unlike his Austro-German contemporary Arnold Schoenberg, Bartók did not consciously seek to champion the cause of atonality. Rather, his interest lay in the fusion of folk and art music, the synthesis of East and West Europe: his inspiration from the folk music of different nationalities uniquely influenced the melodic, harmonic and rhythmic structures of his own music. Following his increasing involvement in the collection and study of folk music, the Second Quartet shows a more direct use of folksong than the First. The discovery of unusual scale structures provided him with new melodic and harmonic formations to explore in response to the general weakening of tonality at the beginning of the twentieth century, although his use of folk music is not yet all-encompassing.* The piece contains the seeds for the full germination of Bartók's compositional style in the Third and Fourth Quartets, completed in 1927 and 1928 respectively." (pp. 151-152)

What may at first sound "atonal" is rooted in his research. Here's an excerpt from Bartok's own writings, an essay simply entitled "Autobiography" published in 1921 (now available in _Béla Bartók's Essays_, p. 410):



> "The outcome of these studies was of decisive influence upon my work, because it liberated me from the tyrannical rule of the major and minor keys.... It became clear to me that the old modes, which had been forgotten in our music, had lost nothing of their vigor. Their new employment made new rhythmic combinations possible. This new way of using the diatonic scale brought freedom from the rigid use of the major and minor keys, and eventually led to a new conception of the chromatic scale, every tone of which came to be considered of equal value and could be used freely and independently."


These issues are analyzed with great care and technical detail by Richard Taruskin, _Music in the Early Twentieth Century_, vol. 4 of _The Oxford History of Western Music_ (New York: Oxford University Press, 2010), pp. 373-425. I strongly encourage you to work through it.


----------



## shangoyal

Listening to the 2nd string quartet played by the Takacs Quartet. This is the first time I have been able to appreciate the music of Bartok. Very interesting and wild music.


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## 38157

shangoyal said:


> Listening to the 2nd string quartet played by the Takacs Quartet. This is the first time I have been able to appreciate the music of Bartok. Very interesting and wild music.


My favourite version of my favourite quartet.


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## Ukko

"Intense" music by Bartók? If you mean you have to pay attention because you are compelled to, try to hear the Sonata for Solo Violin (1944), particularly the recording by Barnabas Kelemen. Damn! If flying insects are around, you may wish to wear a chinstrap - it's a jaw-dropper.


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## Dirge

Béla BARTÓK: Divertimento
:: Fricsay/RIAS SO Berlin [DG]
:: Végh/Marlboro Festival Strings [Bridge, live]

The excellent 1953 Fricsay/RIAS studio performance (not to be confused with the same team's live broadcast recording from the previous year, available on Audite) is as disciplined, together, and tautly energetic as one could hope for, with tension unflaggingly maintained at the highest level throughout. The sheer focus and concentration on display in the slow movement is mesmerizing (and a wee bit scary). 



 (disc 4, tracks 1-3)

The live 1974 Végh/Marlboro account is tough to beat for a less militaristic approach, being by far the most swaggering and characterful account of the Divertimento that I've heard, with Végh encouraging his players to invest much personality in their playing, both collectively and especially in solos. If the spirited performance threatens to burst at the seams here and there, that only adds to the fun and excitement-quite different from the severity and efficiency of Fricsay. If ensemble isn't quite so tight and tension isn't quite so high as it is under Fricsay, it's amazingly good considering how flexible and dynamic the playing is. Climaxes are craftily and dramatically built, and the whole has a very live sense of occasion about it. The recorded sound is pretty clean and clear and exceptionally vivid, conveying a palpable sense of presence. This recording is the highlight of a mixed two-disc set celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Marlboro Music Festival, so the extremely diverse couplings may or may not be to your liking. https://play.spotify.com/album/6qQRhlTwP9YRIR2puVOExq (disc 2, tracks 1-3)


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## Morimur

We NEED a damn complete Bartók box-set. Hungaroton's set is long out of print.


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## MoonlightSonata

I have recently discovered a love for Bartok's colourful music after playing quite a lot of it. He shall be added to my (now very long) list of Favourite Composers.


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## Blake

MoonlightSonata said:


> I have recently discovered a love for Bartok's colourful music after playing quite a lot of it. He shall be added to my (now very long) list of Favourite Composers.


Rightfully so. I think many over-emphasize his edginess. He is... but he isn't.


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## Ukko

Unless 'edginess' means phlegm-free, it isn't. Some of the music breathes particularly unmuffled - PC #1, Sonata for 2 pianos & percussion, Violin Sonata 1944, for instance. Some other works wear a little camo, the Divertimento, MSPC, CfO for example; the listener may still need oxygen if she's paying attention.


----------



## Blake

Ukko said:


> Unless 'edginess' means phlegm-free, it isn't. Some of the music breathes particularly unmuffled - PC #1, Sonata for 2 pianos & percussion, Violin Sonata 1944, for instance. Some other works wear a little camo, the Divertimento, MSPC, CfO for example; the listener may still need oxygen if she's paying attention.


I don't think I've understood a word you've just said, but I agree. His "aggressiveness" is but a shade of many.


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## Ukko

Blake said:


> I don't think I've understood a word you've just said, but I agree. His "aggressiveness" is but a shade of many.


Hah. The two pseudo-metaphors are the sides of one coin.

Merry Christmas.


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## aajj

I count Bartok, along with Stravinsky and Ravel, as the greatest orchestrator of the 20th century. He developed into a master of colors, shades and textures and only seemed to get better with his final works, such as the 3rd Piano Concerto and Concerto for Orchestra. But earlier works such as the 2nd Violin Concerto and 2nd Piano Concerto were loaded with rich colors and masterful textures.


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## hpowders

aajj said:


> I count Bartok, along with Stravinsky and Ravel, as the greatest orchestrator of the 20th century. He developed into a master of colors, shades and textures and only seemed to get better with his final works, such as the 3rd Piano Concerto and Concerto for Orchestra. But earlier works such as the 2nd Violin Concerto and 2nd Piano Concerto were loaded with rich colors and masterful textures.


I completely agree with this. I rank his second violin concerto equally with the Beethoven and Brahms.


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## aajj

The 20th century had some great violin concertos but Bartok's 2nd is my favorite. No shortage of outstanding recordings and my favorites include Kyung Wha Chung/Solti/London Philharmonic and Menuhin/Dorati/Minneapolis in 1957.


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## hpowders

As for the Bartok Second Violin Concerto, I have Chung and Menuhin. Also Anne-Sophie Mutter and Gil Shaham.

Menuhin was special. He could play with a poignancy other violinists couldn't match.

He was terrific in the Barok Second and Elgar Violin Concertos.


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## aajj

Menuhin was special and especially special for Bartok. He recorded the Solo Violin Sonata multiple times, including I believe the very first in the '40s. He also made fine recordings of the two Violin Sonatas. 

Other than Bartok and others, Menuhin was a master of the Mendelssohn and Bruch concertos.


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## Bluecrab

Regarding Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta, I'd like to hear from some of you about this. Back in the vinyl days, I had a DG recording of this work conducted by von Karajan. I loved the work the first time I heard it, especially the first movement. When I switched to CDs in the late 80s, that DG recording was not available, so I bought a Columbia recording conducted by Bernstein. I loved Bernstein's interpretation right away—again, especially the first movement. His tempo was much slower than von Karajan's. I later found Bernstein's marked-up copy of the Boosey and Hawkes score on the NY Philharmonic's website. On the "Instrumentation" page, which immediately precedes the first page of the score, the times for each movement appear. The prescribed time for the first movement is 6:30. Yet Bernstein's version comes in at 9:10. To me, that seems quite a difference, even allowing for artistic license. Having said that, I find Bernstein's tempo enthralling. The movement is downright trancelike.

Those of you who (unlike me) are trained musicians... what do you think of this? Is this taking artistic license too far? Am I listening to a movement that, no matter how much I love it, is an aberration?


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## Manxfeeder

Bluecrab said:


> Those of you who (unlike me) are trained musicians... what do you think of this? Is this taking artistic license too far? Am I listening to a movement that, no matter how much I love it, is an aberration?


It depends. Have you heard anything conducted by Celibidache? 

That reminds me of a story of Toscanini playing Ravel's Bolero, reported in Wiki. Apparently on hearing it, Ravel said "That's not my tempo." Toscanini replied "When I play it at your tempo, it is not effective", to which Ravel retorted "Then do not play it". Four months later, Ravel attempted to smooth over relations with Toscanini by sending him a note explaining that "I have always felt that if a composer does not take part in the performance of a work, he must avoid the ovations."


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## KenOC

hpowders said:


> As for the Bartok Second Violin Concerto, I have Chung and Menuhin. Also Anne-Sophie Mutter and Gil Shaham.


Anybody who loves this work should really hear Kopatchinskaja's performance. It got Gramophone's Recording of the Year in 2013, and deserved it.

http://www.amazon.com/Bartók-Eötvös...0063292&sr=8-1&keywords=bartok+kopatchinskaja


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## arpeggio

One of the misunderstandings that occur between musicians and non-musicians concerns the nature of performances.

Although the ideal is to be consistent, we are not robots. Every time we perform a piece there are going to be slight differences even with the same conductor and ensemble. It is not uncommon for a work to sound one way during the final rehearsal and to sound different during a performance. For example, we normally rehearse in a practice room. When we do the dress rehearsal in the concert hall we have to make all sort of adjustments.

The problem with recordings is that they create a snapshot of one performance. This creates the impression that all performances must sound the same. I know of conductors who every time they conduct a work they try to do it differently. One of the conductors I play with state that he always has to adjust how he conducts a piece depending on the venue.

One can hear this all of the time when they listen to a conductor conducting the same piece in two or more different recordings. A conductor may decide that last night I conducted this movement a little to slow. Tonight I will do it a little faster. This happens much more frequently than many think.


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## hpowders

KenOC said:


> Anybody who loves this work should really hear Kopatchinskaja's performance. It got Gramophone's Recording of the Year in 2013, and deserved it.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Bartók-Eötvös...0063292&sr=8-1&keywords=bartok+kopatchinskaja


Thanks! There was a Fanfare review. The guy liked the Ligeti performance better than the Bartok calling the latter performance "idiosyncratic"; not that it means anything.


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## KenOC

Here's a long and detailed article on Bartok, with recommended recordings. From Gramophone.

http://tinyurl.com/n8q2b2u


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## differencetone

I love his string quartets but not his symphonic work.


----------



## Haydn man

I have been exploring Bartok this month and have based most of my listening to his orchestral works on the Boulez box set.
This seemed like a good place to start and I have enjoyed all that I have listened to and would recommend it.
I want to try some of the recommendations in the Gramophone article from the link above, so will use Spotify.
Bartok is clearly a major figure in 20th centuary music and I shall continue my education


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## hpowders

^^^Please listen to the second violin concerto if you haven't already.


----------



## Oliver

About the ending of the 6th quartet, why do some quartets play arpeggios and others chords?

And perhaps a better question would be which do you prefer? My favourite would be the Emerson quartet.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I don't like the Boulez versions that much. Sometimes he emphasises the dissonance even when the score actually calls for a soft dynamic. It 'cuts' the line and changes the atmosphere, ironically giving it an old fashioned pseudo-Schoenberg taste.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I don't like the Boulez versions that much. Sometimes he emphasises the dissonance even when the score actually calls for a soft dynamic. It 'cuts' the line and changes the atmosphere, ironically giving it an old fashioned pseudo-Schoenberg taste.


It might not come as a surprise to you that Boulez wasn't particularly fond of Bartók's music despite all the recordings he made. I really do like Boulez's Bartók however, but maybe that's just because I'm not very fond of his orchestral music as I am his chamber music!


----------



## tdc

^ I wasn't aware that Boulez wasn't into Bartok much, but have also never been crazy about his Bartok interpretations. I have the Boulez _Bartok Concertos_ CD and I almost never listen to it, I prefer the Fricsay and Rattle interpretations I have.


----------



## shadowdancer

For those into Bartok:
I have both recent released boxes: Solti and Boulez. Since I got Boulez first I had no option of returning it. 
But now that I have heard a lot of Solti's, the Boulez's discs don't left the cases anymore. 

Do you all agree? Solti's reading are much better or are only to my ears?


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## hpowders

Sounds like a fine project for me to get into!! I'm familiar with the Boulez but not the Solti.

It's really tough beating a Hungarian on his own turf.


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## shadowdancer

Of course I am talking mostly for the Orchestral works since the concerti depends a lot on the soloist as well.


----------



## Polyphemus

For me Solti exhibits a little more fire and passion than Boulez I still hold that one of my favourite Bartok discs is Ozawa's Saito Kainen one on Philips of the Concerto For Orchestra and Music for Strings Percussion & Celeste.









But of the two mentioned conductors its Solti for me.


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## aajj

In the battle between Solti and Boulez, Solti is the one who brings the passion, nuances and clarity. But i also love Dutoit and Montreal for the Concerto for Orchestra and Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta.









Also for the Concerto for Orchestra, Dorati / Concertgebouw.


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## shadowdancer

Of course one could add to the list the exceptional Reiner/CSO:








But back to the "boxes" discussion:
I have a feeling that since I bought the Solti's one, I would never want to hear Boulez again.


----------



## Morimur

Why don't we have a complete Bartók box set? Why? WHYYYYYY!!!???


----------



## hpowders

I have the Reiner/CSO Bartók Concerto for Orchestra and was disappointed. Same with the Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta. Didn't find them in anyway special.


----------



## TradeMark

I really like Bartok. Concerto for orchestra helped me get into classical. 
The first two piano concertos are my favorite pieces by him.


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## dzc4627

music for strings, percussion and celesta is the most colorful piece of music i have heard, and i have been listening non stop recently despite hearing it first a year ago. thanks bela!


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## Sonata

I've used his Microkosmos in my piano practice, but I'll soon be exposed to his other works. I picked up Wooden Prince and piano concertos at the library and will listen within the next couple of days


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## Blake

Morimur said:


> Why don't we have a complete Bartók box set? Why? WHYYYYYY!!!???


Just buy everything you can find and put it in a box.


----------



## ptr

Morimur said:


> Why don't we have a complete Bartók box set? Why? WHYYYYYY!!!???












There is on Hungaroton, I have it on my shelf, also include six or so disc's of Bartók, Béla playing himself and some transcriptions of the field recordings with folk music! Some of the recordings or the "lesser known" works are quite sub par, but nothing is unlistenable!

Search and You will find!


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## KenOC

Just heard a sad thing on the radio. Koussevitzky (his foundation) offered Bartok a thousand dollars to write his Concerto for Orchestra. He initially accepted only half that amount, fearing that he wouldn't live to finish it.


----------



## arpeggio

Morimur said:


> Why don't we have a complete Bartók box set? Why? WHYYYYYY!!!???


Decca just released a set.


----------



## KenOC

ptr said:


> There is on Hungaroton, I have it on my shelf, also include six or so disc's of Bartók, Béla playing himself and some transcriptions of the field recordings with folk music! Some of the recordings or the "lesser known" works are quite sub par, but nothing is unlistenable!
> 
> Search and You will find!


The Hungaroton "complete edition" was issued in four volumes totaling 29 CDs. Only portions are available now, on Amazon at least.


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## Xenakiboy

One of my personal favourites, that got me in to classical! I love you Bartok!!


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## Bluecrab

KenOC said:


> Just heard a sad thing on the radio. Koussevitzky (his foundation) offered Bartok a thousand dollars to write his Concerto for Orchestra. He initially accepted only half that amount, fearing that he wouldn't live to finish it.


Sad indeed. Please see the highlighted second paragraph of the scan below, which confirms what you heard. From the liner notes of Bernstein's recording of _Concerto for Orchestra_ and _Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta_.

He was well into composing a seventh string quartet when he died. What a shame.


----------



## juliante

Hi folks, 

I saw a performance of Contrasts for Violin, Clarinet and Piano, Sz 111 last night. It was thrilling, laugh out loud awesome, spectacular playing. The piece is new to me and I want a CD of it. Looking at prestoclassical the Laurent Korcia from 2006 looks like a good option...... just wondering if anyone has any recommendations. 

Cheers


----------



## Xenakiboy

juliante said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> I saw a performance of Contrasts for Violin, Clarinet and Piano, Sz 111 last night. It was thrilling, laugh out loud awesome, spectacular playing. The piece is new to me and I want a CD of it. Looking at prestoclassical the Laurent Korcia from 2006 looks like a good option...... just wondering if anyone has any recommendations.
> 
> Cheers


I love that piece, been a favourite of mine lately.
Check out Bartok's string quartets, maybe no 2? 
Many of his chamber works will appeal too if like like Contrasts, such as the Piano Sonata, the Bagatelles, then the piano Concertos.
But any Bartok is good Bartok! 
Also another piece that Contrasts sits nicely with is; Messiaen's Quartet For The End Of Time, check that out too.

I've left out Bartok's larger works because I assume you want chamber music. Hope you enjoy these!


----------



## Casebearer

KenOC said:


> The Hungaroton "complete edition" was issued in four volumes totaling 29 CDs. Only portions are available now, on Amazon at least.


I have all of the Hungaroton 'complete editions' on vinyl. Collected it in Hungary in the 1970's and 1980's during holidays and played most of it grey. Lucky me!


----------



## juliante

Xenakiboy said:


> I love that piece, been a favourite of mine lately.
> Check out Bartok's string quartets, maybe no 2?
> Many of his chamber works will appeal too if like like Contrasts, such as the Piano Sonata, the Bagatelles, then the piano Concertos.
> But any Bartok is good Bartok!
> Also another piece that Contrasts sits nicely with is; Messiaen's Quartet For The End Of Time, check that out too.
> 
> I've left out Bartok's larger works because I assume you want chamber music. Hope you enjoy these!


Thanks Xb! I have those pieces in the listening queue and I am looking forward to them, I may well return to u for further 20 and 21 c recs. However for this post I was after recs for CDs of sz 111.


----------



## starthrower




----------



## Xenakiboy

starthrower said:


>


I discovered this bass player a little while ago, he's awesome. He did an interview with my recent prog idol Ben Levin recently, which caught me by surprise!!!  :tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

I'm a sucker for the old Issac Stern/NY Philharmonic/Leonard Bernstein recording of Bartok's Violin Concerto No. 2.
The sound is dated but the performance is one of the best.


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## Vaneyes

juliante said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> I saw a performance of Contrasts for Violin, Clarinet and Piano, Sz 111 last night. It was thrilling, laugh out loud awesome, spectacular playing. The piece is new to me and I want a CD of it. Looking at prestoclassical the Laurent Korcia from 2006 looks like a good option...... just wondering if anyone has any recommendations.
> 
> Cheers


I recommend this compilation, including Contrasts (rec.1998).










And this all-Bartok (rec.c1987). :tiphat:


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## juliante

I find Bartok very enigmatic and confusing but beguiling. Often when I listen to his work I am not even sure whether i am actually enjoying it. I think I am but at the same time tend to feel a sense of unease. But I tell myself that much great music demands work to be appreciated and understood. So I persevere. For some reason he is a composer that I want to like. 

But what I do know is, I am always am drawn back to him. I saw Contrasts for Violin, Clarinet and Piano live once and that was wonderful.

What’s it all about eh?


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## Larkenfield

I love the Bartok String Quartets by the Hungarian Ramos String Quartet, because of their fantastically uncompromising quality. He never cheated on the integrity of his ideas, and there's a raw earthiness in so much of his music.


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## Lenny

Lately I've been obsessively listening to Bartok's violin concertos and music for strings, percussion and celesta. How can I get out of this loop?


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## Pugg

Lenny said:


> Lately I've been obsessively listening to Bartok's violin concertos and music for strings, percussion and celesta. How can I get out of this loop?


Just listen to: Bartók: Duke Bluebeard's Castle, Sz. 48, Op. 11 (Bluebeard's Castle; A kékszakállú herceg vára).

:angel:


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## millionrainbows

Me too, Lenny, I just got Bernstein's recording of these, and am pleased, as always. I just listened to String Quartet No. 6, and am still mystified…it's good to follow along with the score, I like that.


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## Phil loves classical

Just got George Sandor's 5 disc set of Bela's complete solo piano works.


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## Mandryka

Phil loves classical said:


> Just got George Sandor's 5 disc set of Bela's complete solo piano works.


There are two sets he recorded -- mono and stereo.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> There are two sets he recorded -- mono and stereo.


The Vox set is stereo.

And the Sony set is also stereo except the recording of Mikrokosmos, which is an older recording from the mid 1950es which was included in the Sony set.


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## millionrainbows

I found a recording of the Bartok Piano Concertos that satisfies me:



Pollini, and Abbado, are somehow able to make this music more comprehensible to me. The Stravinsky solo piano selection is apt, because it shows a connection to Bartok in the rhythmic department, and also shows how Bartok is using similar harmonic ideas, but is more dissonant than Stravinsky. It also reveals the harmonic strategy of both: in the absence of harmonic function, ideas are given meaning by melodic outline. Melodic sequences appear, and "tonics" or tone centers are momentarily perceived, but these "centers" are seen to be fleeting, and more a consequence of the melodic movement, which simply gets embellished by harmony. Schoenberg was right, and Stravinsky and Bartok are inhabiting a no-man's-land of harmonic and tonal ambiguity. It's enjoyable, but this particular harmonic thinking could only continue for so long until finally submitting to its nature, which is melodic.


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## Uxbal

Has anyone bought the Decca Box-set? any good?


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## CnC Bartok

Uxbal - "is it any good"??? Is the Pope a Catholic? Is Betty Ford a clinic????

I don't have the big Decca box. As a big Bartok obsessive, it would involve about 90% duplication of recordings, few of which have been - or need - remastering. A bit of duplication of the few songs or juvenilia would not justify the expense!

But Solti and Fischer in the big orchestral pieces, Kocsis in the piano music and the Concertos, the Takacs quartets, Kertész in Bluebeard, even Geza Anda's supreme piano concerto set thrown in for good measure? You won't get better, I promise! And there are some lesser-known gems in the box, some of the choral and vocal pieces are truly beautiful. Try some of the 27 Choruses or the folk song arrangements, and you'll get my drift. Oh and there's the Argerich/Kovacevich recording of the Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion in there as well!

The only thing I can't vouch for is the documentation that comes with the box. I'd expect it to be pretty sparse, though. But there are plenty of excellent biographies of old Bela out there, which would be an excellent supplement.

Invest without a second thought!!!


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## millionrainbows

I've got some of the Vox recordings, of both Bartok and Ives, and I've noticed that there are problems with the sound. It sounds like DBX noise reduction was used on the original tapes. which are now mis-tracking in the mastering process, causing frequency drop-outs. Very annoying. I'm glad to have the Sony set of Sandor's.


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## scarecroe

This might be considered pretty "basic" by some, but for me, Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra has got to be one of my top three pieces ever.


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## Bluecrab

scarecroe said:


> This might be considered pretty "basic" by some, but for me, Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra has got to be one of my top three pieces ever.


No, I don't think that's too "basic" at all. A fair number of critics consider the Concerto for Orchestra one of the most important works of the 20th century.

By the way, I feel the same way about his String Quartets 1 and 4, and Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celeste. Astounding works.


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## Pugg

​
Béla Viktor János Bartók * 25 March 1881* - New York, 26 September 1945)
was a Hungarian composer, pianist and an ethnomusicologist. He is considered one of the most important composers of the 20th century.


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## BiscuityBoyle

Bluecrab said:


> No, I don't think that's too "basic" at all. A fair number of critics consider the Concerto for Orchestra one of the most important works of the 20th century.
> 
> By the way, I feel the same way about his String Quartets 1 and 4, and Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celeste. Astounding works.


My personal faves are The Miraculous Mandarin (up there for me with The Rite of Spring and Pierrot Lunaire as a consummate modernist masterpiece), the fourth string quartet, the first piano concerto (as played by Geza Anda and Fricsay, no other performance comes close in capturing the eerie suspense of the slow movement) and the Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion, in this old Soviet recording. Harsh, percussive and full of real tension, it remains unsurpassed.


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## Bluecrab

BiscuityBoyle said:


> ...the Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion...


I had the good fortune to see that work live a few years ago at a local university. It's a fascinating work. One of the pianists was a Hungarian who had studied at the same music school that Bartok himself attended. The other was a music professor from the university.


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## Beet131

Perhaps because Bartok was very sick as a boy this gave him the time alone to muse over all the mysteries of life. Regardless, Bartok seemed to have many transcendent experiences that manifested itself in his music. I remember reading that Bartok was fascinated by nature, and reacted strongly to stimuli. One such experience was recounted by his explaining to a person that the 'smell of straw was so active that it verged on becoming sound.' I really sense this transcendent quality of synesthesia in his string quartets. It is almost as if his music is literally of the earth while simultaneously being other-worldly. It is some of the most beautiful and strikingly different music I know.


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## malc

Absolutely , especially #3


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## flamencosketches

Getting into Bartók's music lately, for the first time. He wrote some pretty beautiful stuff. Apparently he spent some of his last years in Asheville, NC, which is one of my favorite places in the world. He wrote this there:






^ Definitely my favorite of the works of his I've heard, but I also enjoy the quartets:






I really enjoy the melody that maintains in these pieces despite their deep chromaticism.

He's written a pretty wide variety of great stuff. I've mostly only heard the really famous ones. Anything else I should check out?


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## Mandryka

I too, by coincidence, have been really enjoying the Alban Berg Quartet's recording of the third and fourth quartets. That set is a great discovery and I suspect it will join Juilliard as a firm favourite for complete sets.


----------



## tdc

flamencosketches said:


> He's written a pretty wide variety of great stuff. I've mostly only heard the really famous ones. Anything else I should check out?


All of it.

I think the Piano Concertos and _Bluebeard's Castle_ are some of his best work, not sure if they are some of the popular ones you are referring to.

_Cantata Profana_ tends to fly under the radar a bit, also be sure to listen to the excellent Violin Sonatas.


----------



## CnC Bartok

tdc said:


> All of it.
> 
> I think the Piano Concertos and _Bluebeard's Castle_ are some of his best work, not sure if they are some of the popular ones you are referring to.
> 
> _Cantata Profana_ tends to fly under the radar a bit, also be sure to listen to the excellent Violin Sonatas.


Yeah, I'd echo that! I would probably list a couple of dozen works that are "essential Bartok"! Oddly enough, though, the Violin Sonatas (with piano, to distinguish from the Solo Sonata he wrote for Menuhin - I believe it was that which he wrote in Asheville NC, winter of 1943-44!) are the only major works of his I don't really get on with.

Cantata profana is an absolute gem, btw. Not to be missed.


----------



## tdc

CnC Bartok said:


> Yeah, I'd echo that! I would probably list a couple of dozen works that are "essential Bartok"! Oddly enough, though, the Violin Sonatas (with piano, to distinguish from the Solo Sonata he wrote for Menuhin - I believe it was that which he wrote in Asheville NC, winter of 1943-44!) are the only major works of his I don't really get on with.
> 
> Cantata profana is an absolute gem, btw. Not to be missed.


That is interesting, the only work of Bartok I can think of that I don't really get on with is _The Wooden Prince_, I think it reminds me too much of R Strauss. That said I've noticed the work has a fair number of appreciators here on TC so I think it is worth checking out.


----------



## flamencosketches

I've heard neither Bluebeard nor Cantata Profana. I will be looking into both, especially noting that Bluebeard's Castle is a short one-act opera: I've enjoyed the operas I've seen and heard, but I just don't have 3 hours to kill on any given day to watch a full one. So shorter ones are always welcome. Somehow I have a hard time picturing Bartók's compositional style being conducive to writing for vocal music, but being as acclaimed as he has been in this genre, I'm excited to be proven wrong.


----------



## CnC Bartok

tdc said:


> That is interesting, the only work of Bartok I can think of that I don't really get on with is _The Wooden Prince_, I think it reminds me too much of R Strauss. That said I've noticed the work has a fair number of appreciators here on TC so I think it is worth checking out.


Actually, I'll confess I'm not the biggest fan of The Wooden Prince either. Bits of it are great, but it does drag. I suppose it's more in the style of his more ruminative orchestral pieces, the Second Suite, or the Four Pieces, which in the whole scheme of things ended up as dead ends for Bartok. There's a Wooden Prince suite, which cuts out a lot of the less interesting music! There, it has its uses, emphatically not with the Mandarin Suite, which removes all of the key, other-wordly closing scenes; no "miraculous" there....The Wooden Prince seems well received by quite a few here, as you say, and of course it was Bartok's biggest hit at the time.


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## Larkenfield

The opening of The Wooden Prince reminds me of the opening to Wagner's Ring... I think some music for the ballet translates better as concert pieces than others and this benefits from the dancers. I would like to see the dancers as a way of adding a certain interest to the music. I consider Bartok one of the icons of 20th-century composers and he went through some interesting phases and influences from others.


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## elgar's ghost

I'm another one who's not overly keen on _The Wooden Prince_. Sure, the music serves the plot adequately, but the plot itself is hackneyed and old-fashioned. _The Wooden Prince_ seems like a dim gas lamp compared to _The Miraculous Mandarin_'s dazzling electric strip-light.


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## starthrower

I love the cantata. I have it paired with the Wooden Prince on the Boulez DG disc. I picked up the Opera conducted by Kertesz on an Eloquence 2 CD which also includes the complete Harry Janos.


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## NLAdriaan

Mandryka said:


> I too, by coincidence, have been really enjoying the Alban Berg Quartet's recording of the third and fourth quartets. That set is a great discovery and I suspect it will join Juilliard as a firm favourite for complete sets.


You might take a listen to the (second) Takacs Quartet set (Decca) or the Parkanyi Quartet (3 separate CD's). Both highly recommended!


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## Mandryka

I know both the Takacs recordings, and indeed I've seen them play Bartok.

Has anyone enjoyed Diotima? Or Hagen? I've started to explore both of those.


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## CnC Bartok

Mandryka said:


> I know both the Takacs recordings, and indeed I've seen them play Bartok.
> 
> Has anyone enjoyed Diotima? Or Hagen? I've started to explore both of those.


The Diotima set, as well as a set from the Arcadia Qt, have only just been released, so the expression "hang on, give us a chance..." springs to mind. Actually, I'd be very interested to hear what you think of them, previous nudges from your good self have been appreciated.

The Hagen set is ok, but I find little fire in their playing, so it's not a set I have returned to that frequently. Perhaps another listen is called for?


----------



## NLAdriaan

Mandryka said:


> I know both the Takacs recordings, and indeed I've seen them play Bartok.


Am I right in saying that there are roughly 2 mainstreams of approaching Bartok's string quartets? The American approach (Juilliard, Emerson) with an emphasis on dynamics and the European approach (Berg, Hagen Takacs, Parkanyi) with an emphasis on the lyrical aspects of the music?


----------



## Flutter

tdc said:


> All of it.
> 
> I think the Piano Concertos and _Bluebeard's Castle_ are some of his best work, not sure if they are some of the popular ones you are referring to.
> 
> _Cantata Profana_ tends to fly under the radar a bit, also be sure to listen to the excellent Violin Sonatas.


Add the Miraculous Mandarin, MFSP&C and Out of Doors to that list and I'm 100% with you!


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## flamencosketches

Bartók was a phenomenal composer. I have been listening to all of the string quartets quite a bit. 3, 4, and 5 are my favorites. LOVE the Emerson set which blows the Juilliard I had out of the water. I may even consider getting a third cycle (the Takács Qt.) as I've heard there are radically different ways of playing Bartóks quartets. 

Also heard Bluebeard's Castle yesterday, finally. One of the greatest operas I've ever heard.

Not so crazy about the piano concertos to this point. I like the orchestral music but it doesn't move me like the quartets.


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## starthrower

The piano concertos took me a while to warm up to, but it was a matter of giving my brain sufficient time to process all of the musical information. I'm a big fan of these works now, as I am of all of Bartok's great masterworks. I may try the Emerson's for the quartets. I have the Takacs, and Alban Berg sets. I can probably find these at the library.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Bartók was a phenomenal composer. I have been listening to all of the string quartets quite a bit. 3, 4, and 5 are my favorites. LOVE the Emerson set which blows the Juilliard I had out of the water. I may even consider getting a third cycle (the Takács Qt.) as I've heard there are radically different ways of playing Bartóks quartets.
> 
> Also heard Bluebeard's Castle yesterday, finally. One of the greatest operas I've ever heard.
> 
> Not so crazy about the piano concertos to this point. I like the orchestral music but it doesn't move me like the quartets.


There are at least three complete cycles from The Juilliard.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> There are at least three complete cycles from The Juilliard.


The one I have is the one from the 1960s sometime. On Sony. I believe originally on Columbia.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> The one I have is the one from the 1960s sometime. On Sony. I believe originally on Columbia.


If it's this one it's their second recording and I think it's rather good









They've been around for so long, you have to be careful with Juilliard. It's not just that their ideas about how the music should go changed, it's also that the people playing in the ensemble changed.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> If it's this one it's their second recording and I think it's rather good
> 
> View attachment 117569
> 
> 
> They've been around for so long, you have to be careful with Juilliard. It's not just that their ideas about how the music should go changed, it's also that the people playing in the ensemble changed.


That's the one. It is quite good, I just prefer Emerson's more immediate and less subtle approach.

Of course that may be due to unfamiliarity with these works.


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## CnC Bartok

flamencosketches said:


> That's the one. It is quite good, I just prefer Emerson's more immediate and less subtle approach.
> 
> Of course that may be due to unfamiliarity with these works.


Yeah. There's more to these works - a hell of a lot more to be honest - than the Emersons manage to bring out.....

You should try the Takacs Qt, or the Tatrais, or the Mikrokosmos Qt for something more "profound".....:angel:

Enjoyed the Diotima Quartet, btw. Not a favourite, but plenty to say.


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## flamencosketches

Ill get the Takács one when I'm sick of this one.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Ill get the Takács one when I'm sick of this one.


There are two Takacs sets.


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## Mandryka

CnC Bartok said:


> Yeah. There's more to these works - a hell of a lot more to be honest - than the Emersons manage to bring out.....
> 
> You should try the Takacs Qt, or the Tatrais, or the Mikrokosmos Qt for something more "profound".....:angel:
> 
> Enjoyed the Diotima Quartet, btw. Not a favourite, but plenty to say.


There's a new cycle started by the Ragazze Quartet, so far I've only listened to 4 but I think it really is exceptional.









I believe Jerusalem Quartet plan in finishing off their cycle soon (they're going to be playing in London); didn't much enjoy Diotima.


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## millionrainbows

There seem to be two approaches to the Bartok quartets. Bartok was serious about his collecting of Hungarian folk music, and did more than merely transcribe; he took note of singing and playing techniques of the folk musicians.

It then becomes a matter of how "authentic" a flavor you want from the players. An argument can be made for both sides; Takacs is more "gypsy" and in-your-face than most Western string quartet players. On the other hand, if you admit that Bartok is essentially a Western composer, then you might prefer a "smoother" Western approach without so much 'attack,' more like the Emerson.

I've got both, and prefer the Emerson. I also have the newer Juilliard:


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## Mandryka

I don’t think « gypsy » is quite the right idea here. CnC will know more than me but as far as I understand it Bartok had no interest in Gypsy music.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Sorry, I'm not going to get into the "Gypsy" vs "Authentic" in Hungarian folk music bit! But the two do overlap to quite an extent, Bartok collected, and was profoundly influenced (!) by the rural music, untouched as it were at that time by the urban, which is probably where Liszt's Hungarian music has a stronger set of roots.

The roughness/ rawness/swagger, whatever you want to call it of the Ur-Hungarian music and it playing practices do surely have a huge role in how Bartok's string quartets can be played? For me they are essential aspects, but the smoother Western approach (Juillards, Chilingirian, Diotima, Vermeer, Hagens, Guarneri, and - shock-horror (!) the Hungarian Quartet) are emphatically not invalid. These are too good as pieces of music to be undermined by such things. Sorry, but I just find the Emersons aggressive and empty.

I'm still a firm preferrer of Takacs II, Takacs I, Mikorkosmos, Tatrai (Mandryka's recommendation a few years back!). And Eder, Keller aint bad either!

Thanks for the heads up on the Ragazze Qt.; Italian, I assume? The Jerusalems I have heard have been very good, should get them once complete.


----------



## flamencosketches

Any other opinions on which of the Takács cycles is better? I generally like their earlier Decca recordings to those on Hyperion.


----------



## Mandryka

CnC Bartok said:


> Sorry, I'm not going to get into the "Gypsy" vs "Authentic" in Hungarian folk music bit! But the two do overlap to quite an extent, Bartok collected, and was profoundly influenced (!) by the rural music, untouched as it were at that time by the urban, which is probably where Liszt's Hungarian music has a stronger set of roots.
> 
> The roughness/ rawness/swagger, whatever you want to call it of the Ur-Hungarian music and it playing practices do surely have a huge role in how Bartok's string quartets can be played? For me they are essential aspects, but the smoother Western approach (Juillards, Chilingirian, Diotima, Vermeer, Hagens, Guarneri, and - shock-horror (!) the Hungarian Quartet) are emphatically not invalid. These are too good as pieces of music to be undermined by such things. Sorry, but I just find the Emersons aggressive and empty.
> 
> I'm still a firm preferrer of Takacs II, Takacs I, Mikorkosmos, Tatrai (Mandryka's recommendation a few years back!). And Eder, Keller aint bad either!
> 
> Thanks for the heads up on the Ragazze Qt.; Italian, I assume? The Jerusalems I have heard have been very good, should get them once complete.


A Hungarian friend of a friend, as it were, once told me that what people -- including Hungarian people -- call Hungarian/Rumanian Gypsy music, has nothing really in common with real Gypsy music, it's just the folk music of non-Gypsy Hungarian folk.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Any other opinions on which of the Takács cycles is better? I generally like their earlier Decca recordings to those on Hyperion.


I don't know either well enough to comment with confidence about that.

By the way, if you like Emerson in Bartok be sure to hear them play Shostakovich 11 -- it may well be the thing I enjoy the most of theirs.


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## millionrainbows

I'll call it "more authentic folk technique" and not throw around that term of convenience 'gypsy' any more. Too many werewolves in these parts.







What's that he's drinking?


----------



## CnC Bartok

millionrainbows said:


> I'll call it "more authentic folk technique" and not throw around that term of convenience 'gypsy' any more. Too many werewolves in these parts.
> 
> View attachment 117683
> What's that he's drinking?


Not Tokaj. Wrong colour. Could be a full-bodied Egri Bikaver, but I think that photo is of him in America, so there could be a good reason why the glass seems completely untouched in terms of consumption. :devil:


----------



## flamencosketches

What are some good recordings of the Concerto for Orchestra and Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celeste?

I have heard Ferenc Fricsay with the RIAS Symphony as well as Fritz Reiner with the Chicago Symphony. Can't say I'm totally sold on any, which is odd considering both were students of Bartók if I'm not mistaken. Maybe I'm looking for a slightly more modern recording, or maybe I should stick it out with these two and the problem is just with me.


----------



## CnC Bartok

flamencosketches said:


> What are some good recordings of the Concerto for Orchestra and Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celeste?
> 
> I have heard Ferenc Fricsay with the RIAS Symphony as well as Fritz Reiner with the Chicago Symphony. Can't say I'm totally sold on any, which is odd considering both were students of Bartók if I'm not mistaken. Maybe I'm looking for a slightly more modern recording, or maybe I should stick it out with these two and the problem is just with me.


If you like neither of those conductors, then they are either not going to be works you'll enjoy, or it's the dated recording. I'd say on that neither is bad, though. Reiner's is a bit harsh, Fricsay's a bit cloudy. So my first alternative recommendation, Dorati in both on Mercury, might not go down too well either. nor might Solti's glorious 1964 London Music for Strings.

In Music for Strings, try Janos Rolla and the Liszt Chamber Orchestra? Or Boulez? If you can find it, Ivan Fischer's on Philips is superb too, so is the new Hungaroton recording by Zoltan Kocsis.

Concerto for orchestra: either Solti is great,, I prefer his later Chicago one for a superb recording quality! Also either Fischer brother again, Kocsis again if you can find it. And don't overlook a strange source for this composer, Charles Dutoit!!!


----------



## philoctetes

Scrowaszewski (sp?) on Vox is quite good for CfO. Don't like Reiner or Solti much. Reiner's sound may be sharper but Fricsay is more precise, IMO.


----------



## EdwardBast

flamencosketches said:


> What are some good recordings of the Concerto for Orchestra and Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celeste?


See if you like this one for the Concerto for Orchestra. Ivan Fischer conducting.


----------



## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> What are some good recordings of the Concerto for Orchestra and Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celeste?
> 
> I have heard Ferenc Fricsay with the RIAS Symphony as well as Fritz Reiner with the Chicago Symphony. Can't say I'm totally sold on any, which is odd considering both were students of Bartók if I'm not mistaken. Maybe I'm looking for a slightly more modern recording, or maybe I should stick it out with these two and the problem is just with me.


I'm not so keen on the concerto but the music for strings etc is something I've enjoyed. If you want I can let you have a good recording by Bruno Maderna.


----------



## KenOC

The recordings of MSP&C mentioned are all excellent. If a listener is not satisfied with these, then I suspect the problem is with the music, not the performance.


----------



## Mandryka

What to the assembled Bartokians think of Bartok’s own recording of MSPC?


----------



## CnC Bartok

Mandryka said:


> What to the assembled Bartokians think of Bartok's own recording of MSPC?


Seriously? I've got him and Ditta doing the Sonata for Two pianos & percussion, I was under the impression he only ever conducted his own works on one very early occasion, and that was Kossuth, I think....


----------



## Mandryka

I think so, see what you think

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8068118--bartok-plays-bartok


----------



## CnC Bartok

That sounds like Karajan with the Philharmonia in 1949!! But by God, I'd love it if you were right!!

Looking at the Urania listing you've given, not sure what Benny Goodman and Jozef Szigeti would be doing in that piece!!! Or indeed a four-year deceased composer!! 

The other works on that album are indeed Bela himself, the famous Contrasts, and his Mikrokosmos extracts.

The closest I've got to "authentic" with MfSPC is a 1995 recording of Paul Sacher - The work's commissioner - in the Sheldonian, Oxford.


----------



## millionrainbows

@CnC Bartok: I found a used copy of Music for Strings by Janos Rolla and the Liszt Chamber Orchestra, and I like it. 
If anyone is interested in the nuts and bolts, I suggest the book by Elliott Antokoletz. 










Does anyone think there is creedence to Bartok using the golden mean in his compositions? Lendval does, but this has been disputed.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Lendvai has indeed been disputed, and some of his provisos - like "if you ignore the first bar...."(!) - are a bit hard to swallow, but there are so many examples of Fibonacci/golden section, that it's hard to dismiss completely. Could it just be a miraculous inate sense of proportion in the composer? That too is quite hard to accept. He makes a good read, though.

Glad you like the Rolla! It has a straightforward honesty and clarity, especially in the stereophonic department, and it is perfectly paced (yes I know Bartok's quite specific/pedantic on metronome markings) The Divertimento, obviously a lesser piece, is good too, both come off well with a more chamber set of forces.


----------



## flamencosketches

CnC Bartok said:


> If you like neither of those conductors, then they are either not going to be works you'll enjoy, or it's the dated recording. I'd say on that neither is bad, though. Reiner's is a bit harsh, Fricsay's a bit cloudy. So my first alternative recommendation, Dorati in both on Mercury, might not go down too well either. nor might Solti's glorious 1964 London Music for Strings.
> 
> In Music for Strings, try Janos Rolla and the Liszt Chamber Orchestra? Or Boulez? If you can find it, Ivan Fischer's on Philips is superb too, so is the new Hungaroton recording by Zoltan Kocsis.
> 
> Concerto for orchestra: either Solti is great,, I prefer his later Chicago one for a superb recording quality! Also either Fischer brother again, Kocsis again if you can find it. And don't overlook a strange source for this composer, Charles Dutoit!!!


Oddly enough, I really liked Dorati's Bluebeard. I will probably have to give his recordings a shot.

Failing that, I have many alternatives if I decide to keep trying...


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## joen_cph

Regarding '_Music for Strings _etc.' ... Mravinsky, Bernstein/NYPO and Fricsay would be some of my favourites.

I've also got Reiner, Scherchen, Fischer, Kondrashin, Kubelik, Karajan & Stokowski, but no Dorati.


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## CnC Bartok

flamencosketches said:


> Oddly enough, I really liked Dorati's Bluebeard. I will probably have to give his recordings a shot.
> 
> Failing that, I have many alternatives if I decide to keep trying...


If that's the Dorati Bluebeard on Mercury, you'll really enjoy his other recordings on that label. The Concerto for orchestra is one of the best, so is his Music for Strings, a petrifying Mandarin, one of Menuhin's Violin Concerto recordings, and a lilting, swaggering Second Suite, and you've got yourself a Bartok set for life!!


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## KenOC

CnC Bartok said:


> ...The Divertimento, obviously a lesser piece, is good too, both come off well with a more chamber set of forces.


For me, the Divertimento for String Orchestra is one of Bartok's strongest pieces. It's mostly in a lighter vein and quite approachable, but the quality is first-rate. And that ominous middle movement comes as a very disturbing surprise every time.


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## flamencosketches

Why do we not talk so much about Bartók's piano music?











^Bartók himself at the piano.






I have the first couple volumes of Mikrokosmos and am working through them. Very simple tunes, but some nice stuff is in there.

I really like Naxos' in-house pianist Jenö Jandó in these works. I want to hear Zoltan Kocsis though. He is pretty well known for his Bartók interpretations and there is an 8-disc set of the complete works on Decca that he has recorded.

Anyway, these works are truly original. They remind me somewhat of Debussy, but not quite. They are often very angular. I can't quite describe it. I'm impressed. I wasn't expecting such great music considering I never hear anyone talk about this aspect of Bartók's career.


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## philoctetes

Bartok also recorded hmiself... and if you like Bartok piano you should check out Grieg's Lyric Pieces


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## philoctetes

Bartok also recorded hmiself... and if you like Bartok piano you should check out Grieg's Lyric Pieces - Richter, Gilels, Andsnes, etc..


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## flamencosketches

I do like Grieg's Lyric Pieces, especially played by Gilels. But I must admit I never made that connection with regard to Bartók. I'll have to listen to them again with that in mind. 

I'll have to check out that recording of Bartók himself. I linked one with Bartók playing the suite in my previous post, and I've heard a bit of him playing parts of Mikrokosmos, but not much else.


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## joen_cph

Of course, Grieg has been seen as a proto-Bartok, pioneering figure in musical history, due to his relations with and use of Norwegian folk music.

Apparently, Bartok never played Grieg, though:
https://books.google.dk/books?id=12...QICBAB#v=onepage&q=bartok plays grieg&f=false


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## lextune

flamencosketches said:


> Anyway, these works are truly original. They remind me somewhat of Debussy, but not quite. They are often very angular. I can't quite describe it. I'm impressed. I wasn't expecting such great music considering I never hear anyone talk about this aspect of Bartók's career.


Bartok revered Debussy. There are indeed many similarities in their works.

"Debussy's great service to music was to reawaken among all musicians an awareness of harmony and its possibilities. In that, he was just as important as Beethoven, who revealed to us the possibilities of progressive form, or as Bach, who showed us the transcendent significance of counterpoint. Now, what I am always asking myself is this: is it possible to make a synthesis of these three great masters, a living synthesis that will be valid for our time?

-Bartok (1939)

As for "never hear(ing) anyone talk about" Bartok's piano music, you just aren't talking to the right people I guess.


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## Janspe

I'm currently listening to Bartók's vocal output in its entirety, and I'm starting to realize how very little of it I knew previously. It seems that in the discussions surrounding Bartók his works for voice are not given a lot of attention - apart from a few obvious examples, like Bluebeard's Castle and the Cantata Profana.

I'd like to hear what the TC community makes of Bartók's vocal works - favourite pieces, good performances, thoughts and ideas of any kind?


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## starthrower

Janspe said:


> I'm currently listening to Bartók's vocal output in its entirety, and I'm starting to realize how very little of it I knew previously. It seems that in the discussions surrounding Bartók his works for voice are not given a lot of attention - apart from a few obvious examples, like Bluebeard's Castle and the Cantata Profana.


Those two are the only pieces I know. I have the Boulez recording of the later and Kertesz for the opera. What else is there?


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## CnC Bartok

Do check out his choral works, much of it a capella, or with a simple accompaniment such as a piano. This is an excellent album:









Contents:
27 Two- and Three-part Children and Female Choruses, a capella Volumes I-VIII, Sz 103, BB 111a (1935-36)
Evening; DD 74, BB 30 (1903)
Two Romanian Folksongs; Sz 58, BB 57 (1909) 
Four Old Hungarian Folksongs; Sz 50, BB 60 (1926 version) 
Slovak Folksongs; Sz 69, BB 77 (1917) 
Four Slovak Folksongs; Sz 70, BB 78 (1917) 
Székely Folksongs; Sz 99, BB 106 (1932-33) 
From Olden Times; Sz 104, BB 112 (1935) 
Four Hungarian Folksongs; Sz 93, BB 99 (1930) 
Four Old Hungarian Folksongs (1910 version) 
Slovak Folksongs (version with Hungarian text) 
Four Slovak Folksongs (version with Hungarian text)

Also there are orchestrated versions of seven of the 27 choruses, and the gorgeous Village Scenes, there are quite a few recordings of the latter.

And then there are a couple of real-Bartoky song cycles from around 1915, Opp.15 and 16, and countless simple and yet still very personal folk song arrangements. A handful of the latter were also orchestrated and are well worth seeking out.

Of course the Cantata Profana is an out and out masterpiece and one of his greatest and most deeply felt personal works, which tends to put the above in the shade somewhat. I just wish it were better known outside of Hungary.


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## millionrainbows

Bartok, Piano Concerto No. 2, Zoltan Kocsis


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## starthrower

Bartok is one of my favorites. I'll be listening to all of his orchestral music again when I receive my two Solti sets.


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## elgar's ghost

Choral works and songs represent the only real black hole in my Bartók collection - the only choral work I have is the _Cantata Profana_. The _Complete Choral Works_ set as posted by CnCB is indeed attractive but the cost of it is more than I would be willing to pay for a two-disc set. If I take the plunge I might opt for this first:










Recordings of his songs for voice and piano appear to be even thinner on the ground. This is the only set I am interested in (it might even be the only one available) even though some of the folksong settings aren't included - but current prices are too much to pay for a used copy.


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## CnC Bartok

^^ Both of those CDs are very good indeed, but the top one is superb. If you can get it cheap, it will give you years of pleasure. They are entirely different recordings from the ones I posted btw, no overlap of performers.


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## Janspe

Tonight it finally, _finally_ happens - I'm going to hear Bartók's 1st piano concerto live in a concert! I have been waiting for this for years. There have been many opportunities to hear the 3rd which is great since it's one of my favourite pieces of music, but the 1st is in my blood since my early teenage years and getting to know it transformed my views about music. If somebody pointed a gun against my head and forced me to choose just one piece of music for the rest of my life, it might just be this concerto. And now I'm hearing it _live_! What an amazing privilege to be able to enjoy great art without any effort or high financial cost. What a time to be alive! Bartók 1, in a concert, did I mention that yet!?

As if that wasn't enough, I'm also hearing _Bluebeard's Castle_ in a concert performance this spring as well. Life is good!


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## HerbertNorman

I don't know the composer very well. Which of his works should I listen to as a beginner?
I am very acquainted to the works of Russian composers like Shostakovich and Katchaturian and Dvorák, who used folk music too in a certain extent.


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## mikeh375

HerbertNorman said:


> I don't know the composer very well. Which of his works should I listen to as a beginner?
> I am very acquainted to the works of Russian composers like Shostakovich and Katchaturian and Dvorák, who used folk music too in a certain extent.


Try the Concerto for Orchestra Herbert, as iconic a work as any other of his.


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## Mandryka

HerbertNorman said:


> I don't know the composer very well. Which of his works should I listen to as a beginner?
> I am very acquainted to the works of Russian composers like Shostakovich and Katchaturian and Dvorák, who used folk music too in a certain extent.


The Third String Quartet.


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## HerbertNorman

Thanks a lot , I've got a Spotify account so I'll be listening asap!


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## mikeh375

HerbertNorman said:


> Thanks a lot , I've got a Spotify account so I'll be listening asap!


Herbert, if you do listen to the Concerto and as you like Shostakovich, see if you can spot the moment Bartok pokes fun of him in the 4th movement.


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## Janspe

HerbertNorman said:


> I don't know the composer very well. Which of his works should I listen to as a beginner?
> I am very acquainted to the works of Russian composers like Shostakovich and Katchaturian and Dvorák, who used folk music too in a certain extent.


Definitely check out the 3rd piano concerto and the Sonata for 2 pianos and percussion! Amazing, beginner-accessible works.


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## tdc

Janspe said:


> Tonight it finally, _finally_ happens - I'm going to hear Bartók's 1st piano concerto live in a concert! I have been waiting for this for years. There have been many opportunities to hear the 3rd which is great since it's one of my favourite pieces of music, but the 1st is in my blood since my early teenage years and getting to know it transformed my views about music. If somebody pointed a gun against my head and forced me to choose just one piece of music for the rest of my life, it might just be this concerto. And now I'm hearing it _live_! What an amazing privilege to be able to enjoy great art without any effort or high financial cost. What a time to be alive! Bartók 1, in a concert, did I mention that yet!?
> 
> As if that wasn't enough, I'm also hearing _Bluebeard's Castle_ in a concert performance this spring as well. Life is good!


Nice. Bartok is one of those composers that doesn't have many (any?) weak works, but the Piano Concerto No. 1 and Bluebeard's Castle are two of the very best.


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## tdc

Bartok's music is such a fine synthesis of styles, in addition to this he was an excellent pianist, excelled in counterpoint, left us a wealth of solo instrument and orchestral works, and also some of the finest didactic keyboard works. 

Because of this I see him as a more worthy composer to be called the 'Bach of the 20th century' than Stravinsky, even though some have used the phrase in reference to the latter.


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## violadude

Janspe said:


> Definitely check out the 3rd piano concerto and the Sonata for 2 pianos and percussion! Amazing, beginner-accessible works.


Add to that Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta. The work is very gripping and accessible.


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## Janspe

violadude said:


> Add to that Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta. The work is very gripping and accessible.


Definitely, it's an amazing piece! And now that I think of it, the 2nd violin concerto also offers a pretty neat overview of Bartók's mature style; it's perhaps not the easiest of his scores to grasp (I remember being completely bewildered by it as a teenager) but ultimately it's a tremendously rewarding, lyrical and urbane piece that has something to offer for everyone. Seeing it live is a riot.


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## Minneapple

Most people recommends Bartok's _Concerto for Orchestra[/_B] or _Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste_ for starters. I love his 2nd Piano Concerto as well as his mind-blowing ballet, _The Miraculous Mandarin_. Have fun!


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## millionrainbows

Used to, if you wanted the 1963 Juilliard version, good luck. It was available only as an import, and was generally a challenge to acquire. Don't be fooled --- this version is significantly superior to the 1981 version, and should definitely be your first choice.

It's my new "go to" Bartok set of quartets. Finally a legit domestic release on CD, this is the 1963 recording by the Juilliard Quartet. Comes with a slipcover, and the discs themselves say "made in Austria," always a good thing. The back jacket says 2001 France, so this was originally a French issue to begin with.
The Juilliard Quartet does a phenomenal job here of conveying the musical meaning of Bartok, in their understanding and especially in terms of their playing: very little vibrato, so that precise harmonic meanings are conveyed very clearly, and a spot-on sense of pitch; I can hear it, this stands out.
No excesses or gypsy elements like the Tackacs. Better than the Emersons set.
String Quartet No. 2, second movement, with all the pizzicato: amazing!
Highly recommended!


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## Avey

And what sort of music had I needed today and yesterday and the years before - Bartok. Rediscovering the beauty of his 3rd Quartet. Raucous, strange, rough, peculiar and startling - yet in between in it all, some sort of rhythmic and melodic miasma lending you off toward reflection on _what is normal, I don't need it_ for a quarter of an hour.

Good sounds too.


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## staxomega

I've had Takacs' first recording of the string quartets in my heavy rotation. I'd ignored them for a long time since everyone automatically suggests the Decca recordings as the go to (guessing due to easy availability) and I've come around to warming up to the Decca recordings over the years. But after really absorbing their first recording (Hungaroton) this is much more to my taste; it has that old earth quality of Vegh, Hungarians, Tatrai, etc. Just sublime.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I've really been loving Bartok lately. I find him much more accessible and tuneful than some people seem to think. Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta was the first piece of modern music I really loved and it's still one of my favorites from the 20thc. The piano and violin concerti are also rock-solid. I honestly think 'ol Bela is just one of the most fun composers around! One area I have not taken a deep dive into are the quartets, but I really want to. I just don't like them when they're played poundingly, percussively, in-your-face, like the Emersons tend to. There is much more to Bartok than that. I've got to try some of the old-style idiomatic Hungarian performances.


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## millionrainbows

Yes, he good. Veddy good.


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## Eclectic Al

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I've really been loving Bartok lately. I find him much more accessible and tuneful than some people seem to think. Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta was the first piece of modern music I really loved and it's still one of my favorites from the 20thc. The piano and violin concerti are also rock-solid. I honestly think 'ol Bela is just one of the most fun composers around! One area I have not taken a deep dive into are the quartets, but I really want to. I just don't like them when they're played poundingly, percussively, in-your-face, like the Emersons tend to. There is much more to Bartok than that. I've got to try some of the old-style idiomatic Hungarian performances.


Love the Hungarian Quartet performances. Had them on LP about 30 odd years ago, and recently re-acquired on CD. Still great.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I've really been loving Bartok lately. I find him much more accessible and tuneful than some people seem to think. Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta was the first piece of modern music I really loved and it's still one of my favorites from the 20thc. The piano and violin concerti are also rock-solid. I honestly think 'ol Bela is just one of the most fun composers around! One area I have not taken a deep dive into are the quartets, but I really want to. I just don't like them when they're played poundingly, percussively, in-your-face, like the Emersons tend to. There is much more to Bartok than that. I've got to try some of the old-style idiomatic Hungarian performances.


If I were you I would focus on Quartets 1,2 and 6. More generally, try the Keller Quartet, they're Hungarian and their phrasing is particularly long and fluid.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> If I were you I would focus on Quartets 1,2 and 6. More generally, try the Keller Quartet, they're Hungarian and their phrasing is particularly long and fluid.


Agreed. I have two sets, Emerson and Keller. I love both but Keller definitely focuses on the long lyrical phrases. Incidentally I prefer them in the three quartets you mentioned, while I prefer the Emersons in the other three.


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## SanAntone

*Takács* and *Vegh* (1972/Astrée) are my go-to recordings for the SQ.


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## CnC Bartok

SanAntone said:


> *Takács* and *Vegh* (1972/Astrée) are my go-to recordings for the SQ.


So you prefer the later Vegh recordings? Fair enough! I reckon their later Bartók and Beethoven have the edge on their earlier cycles, although with the Bartók it's swings and roundabouts.

But which Takacs? The Decca set are truly excellent, but there's an earlier Hungaroton cycle (different personnel, mind) that for me has something really special about them. Do try and hear those if you haven't!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> If I were you I would focus on Quartets 1,2 and 6. More generally, try the Keller Quartet, they're Hungarian and their phrasing is particularly long and fluid.


I do love all the quartets now since I posted that a few months ago; certainly some of my favorite chamber music of the 20th century. And the Weekly Quartet this week has given me a great opportunity to compare some recordings.


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## julide

What are your thoughts on the boulez recordings? What are the essential bartok recordings? I love boulez' music but i find his conducting lacking in drama sometimes i'm not sure if this is the case with his bartok as its been a while since i last listened to them.


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## Enthusiast

He was a good Bartok conductor but you can probably do better. My favourite Bartok recording of his is of the three piano concertos, each with a different pianist. I say all this as a huge fan of his conducting (particularly his Mahler).


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## starthrower

Has anyone listened both the Sony and DG Boulez Bartok recordings. I have only a couple of the DG discs including The Wooden Prince, and the Concerto for Two Pianos and Percussion which sound good to me


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## Enthusiast

^ I have - and they are good. There are, though, some others that I prefer.


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> Has anyone listened both the Sony and DG Boulez Bartok recordings. I have only a couple of the DG discs including The Wooden Prince, and the Concerto for Two Pianos and Percussion which sound good to me


Yes, I've listened to them both.


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## CnC Bartok

starthrower said:


> Has anyone listened both the Sony and DG Boulez Bartok recordings. I have only a couple of the DG discs including The Wooden Prince, and the Concerto for Two Pianos and Percussion which sound good to me


I have as well, but despite his reputation as a cold conductor, there is a lot of warmth in his later DGG recordings in comparison. And there's one really essential performance in the latter set, his Cantata Profana. Gil Shaham is great in the Violin Concerto too.

Essential Bartók conductors? A tough one, as there are not many that went comprehensive in terms of coverage. Fricsay is possibly the true yardstick, but I adore most of Solti's recordings. Both Fischer brothers have recorded plenty of gems, and I wish someone would put Arpad Joo's Sefel Records LPs onto CD. And then there are countless versions of some of the orchestral masterpieces by the likes of Fritz Reiner, Karel Ancerl, and of course Boulez.

Tragic that a great Bartók conductor was in the pipeline before his untimely death, Zoltan Kocsis. Find his Concerto for Orchestra on Hungaroton, to see what I mean there!

However, if I were forced to choose just one, it would be Antal Dorati (although he did some repeat recordings that aren't as hot as his earlier ones...)


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## starthrower

I never bought the cold conductor label concerning Boulez. I've heard that Gil Shaham disc too although I don't own a copy.


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## CnC Bartok

starthrower said:


> I never bought the cold conductor label concerning Boulez. I've heard that Gil Shaham disc too although I don't own a copy.


No, nor have I, but just in comparison, the earlier CBS recordings do include a pretty routine Concerto for Orchestra, and (sorry!) a cold Mandarin. And it isn't a cold piece whatsoever, it has more humanity than the work with which it is often unfavourably compared, the Rite of Spring. Both these Bartok pieces are warmer, and more nuanced for DGG


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## starthrower

I have two Mandarins. Ivan Fischer, and Dutoit. I may have Solti too. I need to revisit them.


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## CnC Bartok

starthrower said:


> I have two Mandarins. Ivan Fischer, and Dutoit. I may have Solti too. I need to revisit them.


Trouble is, Solti is a no-go with The Mandarin. Typically brilliant performances in both recordings I have, but why the Suite? The epicentre is the last ten minutes, an unnecessary omission.....


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## Enthusiast

CnC Bartok said:


> Essential Bartók conductors? A tough one, as there are not many that went comprehensive in terms of coverage. Fricsay is possibly the true yardstick, but I adore most of Solti's recordings. Both Fischer brothers have recorded plenty of gems, and I wish someone would put Arpad Joo's Sefel Records LPs onto CD. And then there are countless versions of some of the orchestral masterpieces by the likes of Fritz Reiner, Karel Ancerl, and of course Boulez.
> 
> Tragic that a great Bartók conductor was in the pipeline before his untimely death, Zoltan Kocsis. Find his Concerto for Orchestra on Hungaroton, to see what I mean there!
> 
> However, if I were forced to choose just one, it would be Antal Dorati (although he did some repeat recordings that aren't as hot as his earlier ones...)


That covers most of my views, too (but I don't agree on Shaham's violin concerto ... so I deleted that bit from my quote of your post). I just wanted to say that we are lucky enough to have have quite a few recordings of Kocsis conducting Bartok and not just the Concerto for Orchestra. They are nearly all amazingly excellent! They are probably OOP but there may be used copies still around and Presto, at least, offers downloads of most of them for those who can be satisfied with those.

I also love Dorati's Bartok.


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## Janspe

starthrower said:


> Has anyone listened both the Sony and DG Boulez Bartok recordings. I have only a couple of the DG discs including The Wooden Prince, and the Concerto for Two Pianos and Percussion which sound good to me


Both are excellent. The DG box has much more music on it though, with all the concertos included - none of which he recorded for Sony. I tend to prefer his later efforts, though I admire the Sony box as well. Why not have both!


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## CnC Bartok

75th Anniversary of Bartok's death today. Listening to my Arpad Joo LPs in commemoration.


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## juliante

I have finally now (after many years of dipping in) connected with Bartok's harmonic language. SQ 5 was my way in and i am now really excited to go back to the rest of his quartets. I definitely have quite a conservative ear that struggles with dissonance and atonality - but listeining to SQ 5 (Takaks) last night was a revelation! Such a different experience to the classical and romantic composers that have been my mainstay. Very happy to be excited about CM, it has been a while since i have been blown away.


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## starthrower

That first movement is an earful. I'll have to put this on the stereo later and listen to the whole thing. Reading about this quartet it sounds very complicated so I won't try to "understand" it, I'll just listen.


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## Knorf

CnC Bartok said:


> No, nor have I, but just in comparison, the earlier CBS recordings do include a pretty routine Concerto for Orchestra, and (sorry!) a cold Mandarin. And it isn't a cold piece whatsoever, it has more humanity than the work with which it is often unfavourably compared, the Rite of Spring. Both these Bartok pieces are warmer, and more nuanced for DGG


Boy do I ever disagree with this. Boulez's NYPO _Mandarin_ is among the most ferocious and seductive I know, and I have heard a lot of recordings of this piece. But also in all my years as a professional composer and performer, I have zero idea how you'd make that piece "cold." A mediocre performance of it could be sloppy, or "routine" I suppose, but "cold"? I think not. Anyway, Boulez's is neither sloppy nor routine. For me it is flatly one of the most sensational of all!

However, I do agree that the Boulez/NYPO Concerto for Orchestra, while excellent by any reasonably objective standard, doesn't stand out as anything special in a crowded and competitive field. That _Mandarin_, though: it definitely does.


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## mparta

I like the Boulez/NYPO Mandarin but... the heat comes from Dorati, unfortunately his Suite (CSO) better than his complete (BBC), but both really strip the paint off the walls. Puts me in a bit of a bind because i want the whole thing. I don't know the later Detroit recording.
Also like the Boulez Wooden Prince.

I think I never really connected with those Chicago/DG recordings. Had a bit of the same response to his Debussy and Ravel from Cleveland on DG, felt they were a little bland by comparison despite the orchestras.


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## Knorf

The Dorati/Detroit recording is certainly recommendable, especially since it's the full ballet. I think it's a tad less lurid and up-tempo than the earlier recording of the Suite (comparing only up to where the Suite comes to its abrupt halt), but it's also darker and more dangerous, more palpable menace (a strong point to Boulez's NYPO recording as well). 

I think in general performances of the full ballet tend to be darker, because the dramatic balance of the whole is drastically shifted.


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## HenryPenfold

Knorf said:


> Boy do I ever disagree with this. Boulez's NYPO _Mandarin_ is among the most ferocious and seductive I know, and I have heard a lot of recordings of this piece. But also in all my years as a professional composer and performer, I have zero idea how you'd make that piece "cold." A mediocre performance of it could be sloppy, or "routine" I suppose, but "cold"? I think not. Anyway, Boulez's is neither sloppy nor routine. For me it is flatly one of the most sensational of all!
> 
> However, I do agree that the Boulez/NYPO Concerto for Orchestra, while excellent by any reasonably objective standard, doesn't stand out as anything special in a crowded and competitive field. That _Mandarin_, though: it definitely does.


Oh the NYPO/Boulez Mandarin is vicious, even more than Sid! The NYPO is goaded by Boulez to show their teeth at every turn and they don't seem to need any encouragement. I remember setting up a few drinks and a mini BBQ in the garden of the house I was living in, in London about 28 years ago and I picked up that there was to be a live broadcast of the MM (I think surprisingly by Classic FM, not BBC Radio 3). Anyway, I rushed and put out a couple of speakers and fed the sound out into the garden from the lounge. All my guests and most neighbours were totally enthralled! Great music and copious whisky and beer! Although it was a warm summer evening I think I must have sat in a draft, because the next morning I had quite a headache.

N.B. For my American friends I have used the incorrect spelling of draught. I cannot accept _neighbors, _though. Yech.


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## 6Strings

I've heard very few pieces by him that I didn't like, but some favorites are the first two Piano Concertos, the String Quartets, Violin Concerto No.2, Violin Sonata No.1, Sonata for Solo Violin (both the original and an amazing guitar transcription by Christoph Dejour), The Miraculous Mandarin, Piano Sonata, and the Concerto for Orchestra.


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## tdc

Just picked up a disc of Bartok's piano music on Hyperion, performed by Cédric Tiberghien and it sounds great to my ears, recorded without too much pedal or reverb, really clear counterpoint. I like these interpretations a lot, I will likely pick up his other two Bartok recordings. 

Includes:
Mikrokosmos 5
Eight Improvisations on Hungarian Peasant Songs
Romanian Folk Dances
Fourteen Bagatelles
Allegro Barbaro


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## premont

Taken ad notam.


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## Chatellerault

A great performance of the Mandarin Suite in excellent sound can be found in this Live CD by LSO/Gergiev.









Great Stravinsky (Firebird Suite) as well. Bartók's 3rd PC is less interesting.


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## Neo Romanza

Re: _The Miraculous Mandarin_ recordings

Here are a few of my favorites:










I have to say that who would've thought that the Wiener Philharmoniker would be such an excellent Bartók orchestra. They perform this music with the same fiery intensity that the New York Philharmonic or Chicago Symphony Orchestra would. Of course, Dohnányi's conducting is what's the driving force here. He completely brings his A-game to this performance. I'd have a hard believing someone if they were a fan of this work saying that didn't like this performance.










This recording has been mentioned several times by Knorf and I agree with his assessment of it. It's one of the best _Mandarin_ performances I've heard. It's fire-breathing, barbaric but with an Expressionistic outlook a la The Second Viennese School. I do like Boulez's later recording on DG as well, but this earlier one in New York is certainly one of the great performances.










This entire set from Fischer is a must-own if you're a fan of Bartók and his _Mandarin_ doesn't disappoint and has an earthiness to it that is seductive and draws you into it's sound-world. A long-time favorite performance of mine.










I wouldn't say that Abbado's _Mandarin_ is as savage as some of the other versions I've heard, but his attention to the underlying lyricism of the work is second to none. Many people through the years have said that Abbado's best work was with the LSO and if this recording is any indication, then I'll certainly agree with them.


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## SanAntone

Bartok is not in my high rotation but a few of his works are among my favorites:

The string quartets
Sonata for two pianos and percussion
Romanian Folk Dances (orchestra version)


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## Neo Romanza

SanAntone said:


> Bartok is not in my high rotation but a few of his works are among my favorites:
> 
> The string quartets
> Sonata for two pianos and percussion
> Romanian Folk Dances (orchestra version)


All fine works, indeed.


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## Red Terror

Béla is in my top five, ranking higher than Igor "Attention Wh(•)re" Stravinsky.

Anyway, to those of us who can't get enough of the string quartets, I'd like to recommend yet another complete cycle...


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## Neo Romanza

Red Terror said:


> Béla is in my top five, ranking higher than Igor "Attention Wh(•)re" Stravinsky.
> 
> Anyway, to those of us who can't get enough of the string quartets, I'd like to recommend yet another complete cycle...


That's a pretty decent set, but doesn't displace favorites like the Takács and ABQ. I'm also quite impressed with the Tátrai Quartet traversal, which was a part of the _Complete_ Hungaroton box set that I received about a month ago. Also, I like your quip about Stravinsky --- this pretty funny and so true, but I love ol' Igor anyway.


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## Red Terror

Neo Romanza said:


> That's a pretty decent set, but doesn't displace favorites like the Takács and ABQ. I'm also quite impressed with the Tátrai Quartet traversal, which was a part of the _Complete_ Hungaroton box set that I received about a month ago. Also, I like your quip about Stravinsky --- this pretty funny and so true, but I love ol' Igor anyway.


Agreed. And the Hungaroton box set is absolute gold. What do you think of the newer Decca edition that came out a few years ago?


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## Neo Romanza

Red Terror said:


> Agreed. And the Hungaroton box set is absolute gold. What do you think of the newer Decca edition that came out a few years ago?


The Decca box set is great. I do believe there is some duplication between the Hungaroton and Decca sets, but mainly when it comes to the a cappella choral works and the songs (+ the songs with orchestra).


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## 89Koechel

Excellent comments, esp. 'bout Bela B, and his remarkable String Quartets. I'm totally-sure that the recent recommendations (Hungaroton, Takacs and others ... Quatuor) are truly fine, also! Well, Neo Romanza mentioned the Tatrai Quartet, and I still have an LP set of the latter ... bought for about $8 ... when the Quartet had Vilmos Tatrai, Mihaly Szucs, Juzsef Ivanyi and Ede Banya, the latter, a GREAT cellist. Geez, I even still (on CDs) have the Juilliard Quartet, in all 6. ... Well, Bela B was one of the most-original composers of the recent Century, and we're still finding out some of his best inspirations - eh?


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## Neo Romanza

89Koechel said:


> Excellent comments, esp. 'bout Bela B, and his remarkable String Quartets. I'm totally-sure that the recent recommendations (Hungaroton, Takacs and others ... Quatuor) are truly fine, also! Well, Neo Romanza mentioned the Tatrai Quartet, and I still have an LP set of the latter ... bought for about $8 ... when the Quartet had Vilmos Tatrai, Mihaly Szucs, Juzsef Ivanyi and Ede Banya, the latter, a GREAT cellist. Geez, I even still (on CDs) have the Juilliard Quartet, in all 6. ... Well, Bela B was one of the most-original composers of the recent Century, and we're still finding out some of his best inspirations - eh?


I believe the constant inspiration for Bartók (and his friend and compatriot Kodály as well) in his life was folk music. Of course, Bartók took many trips outside of Hungary (before his final departure to the US) to countries like Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey (where he met Ahmed Adnan Saygun who is arguably the most well-known Turkish composer then and now), Moldavia, Algeria among other other countries to collect folk music. He'd go from village to village and have the native folk musicians sing into an Edison phonograph, which he would later playback to transcribe all of the folk songs he had recorded. So, yeah, there's folk music, but then we mustn't rule out his earlier influences like Strauss and Debussy. He was influenced to some degree by Stravinsky, but Bartók was always his own man and really a loner in the classical music world. There's really been no composer like him in music history and I think this says a lot about just what a brilliant, endlessly creative mind he had. I'll be honest here and say that I've never heard a work from Bartók that I didn't at least enjoy on some level. From his ballets to the concerti to solo piano music to the chamber works and beyond, his oeuvre is loaded with one gem after another.


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## Sid James

*A Bartok diary - listening, reading, observations *(Part 1 of 2)

_"Deriving from the East, Bartok's music could not but appeal to me, but in his greatness a local heritage had been absorbed, interpreted and recast as a universal message, speaking to our age and culture and to every other. As he elevated folk music to universal validity, so he gave noble dimensions to human emotion. Strong with the earthy, primeval strength of its origins, his music has also the cultivated strength of a steely, ruthless discipline which refuses all indulgence."_
- Yehudi Menuhin.

*Rhapsody for Piano and Orchestra* (1904-5)

The *Rhapsody* is an impressive first opus, a substantial work showing Bartok's musical roots in Liszt. It also has some kinship with similar early works by Grieg and Rachmaninov.

The piece presents a vivid contrast of moods - mournful, sentimental, dreamy and triumphant. I particularly like the dramatic opening (which brings to mind some of those old movie soundtracks, like Addinsell's _Warsaw Concerto_), the carnival atmosphere which emerges halfway through and the fadeout ending with piano delicately imitating cimbalom backed by horn.

This piece remained in Bartok's repertoire as a concert pianist until the 1930's. He played it at Carnegie Hall in 1927, when it replaced his first concerto on the original program (the New York Philharmonic had difficulties rehearsing the concerto).

Its taken me a while to get used to this piece, perhaps because I am not as much used to rhapsodies as to concertos. Although I enjoy it and no longer find it unwieldy, its free form and episodic nature initially presented a few challenges for me.

Video: _Bela Bartok At the Crossroads_. Bartok expert Malcolm Gillies discusses how Hungary is at the crossroads of Europe, visits Bartok's birthplace across the border in Romania and demonstrates how he used folk tunes in his music.






*Divertimento for Strings* (1939)

Neo-classicism drew upon music of the Baroque and Classical eras. While Prokofiev's _Symphony #1 "Classical"_ goes back to Haydn, Bartok's *Divertimento* goes back to Bach. There is lightness, but not playfulness, here. It's a bit like comparing the frivolity of Rococo architecture with the solidity of the Baroque.

The _Divertimento_ brilliantly combines the structure and techniques of the Baroque concerto grosso with earthy vigour drawn from folk music. There are not only vivid contrasts, but also a struggle, between light and darkness. The alternation and blending of themes from the solo string quartet and whole orchestra is thrilling to hear.

This was among the first pieces I heard by Bartok, and I remember my reaction to the middle movement in particular. It functions as the emotional and structural core of the whole work. It chilled me to the bone. Without knowing it, I connected with an important aspect of modernity: horror. Music of the night it may be, but it clearly isn't about calmness or rest, more about disturbing thoughts that keep you awake.

The _Divertimento_ was one of three works commissioned by Paul Sacher for his chamber orchestra in Switzerland. It was composed in 1939, and by the time it was premiered in 1940, the world was at war.

The recordings which I listened to:

_Rhapsody_ - Pascal Roge, piano/London SO/Walter Weller (Eloquence 480 4864)






_Divertimento_ - Moscow Chamber Orchestra/Rudolf Barshai (Eloquence 442 8414)

^ Not on youtube (a live recording by the same group is, but its sound quality is inferior). However, there are many other recordings of _Divertimento_ there, including Academy of St Martin in the Fields/Neville Marriner:














Selected sources:

Yehudi Menuhin's autobiography _Unfinished Journey_, published in 1977 by Macdonald and Jane's, London.

_Music in Depth - Bartok's Divertimento for Strings_ by Rose T. Beckenridge for the Cleveland Orchestra:


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## HerbertNorman

Thanks for that Sid!

I had a whole Sunday evening listening to Bartok (and one Shosty symphony) . I really really love the SQs and many of his orchestral works. Among others the Romanian folk dances , the dance suite and the divertimento... What you said about going back to Bach was very interesting , the lightness was evident like you say.

I'm going to listen to a lot of Bartok this week ! The Rhapsody for piano and orchestra and the Violin Concertos on the agenda for tonight (the Pentatone recording , Arabella Steinbacher (Violin) and the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande conducted by Marek Janowski)


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## Sid James

No worries Herbert, and thank you for the compliment. Sounds like a good plan, and I'll also continue listening to Bartok as well. I've got those Romanian Folk Dances cued up, as well as his solo piano music and third piano concerto. I'll probably report back about those here in the second part of this listening diary next weekend.


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## 89Koechel

Sid, HerbertNorman, et. al. - Hope you all will continue to enjoy what the Hungarian master created, (the) last century. Maybe allow me one, more recommendation. It's the Violin Concerto #2, with the "old-timers", Yehudi Menuhin and Wilhelm Furtwangler. An Englishman and a German might seem to be LIKELY candidates for a great, Hungarian (composition) recording, but these two gentlemen achieved something remarkable, back "then".


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## CnC Bartok

89Koechel said:


> Sid, HerbertNorman, et. al. - Hope you all will continue to enjoy what the Hungarian master created, (the) last century. Maybe allow me one, more recommendation. It's the Violin Concerto #2, with the "old-timers", Yehudi Menuhin and Wilhelm Furtwangler. An Englishman and a German might seem to be LIKELY candidates for a great, Hungarian (composition) recording, but these two gentlemen achieved something remarkable, back "then".


As lovely as it might be to claim him for ourselves, I'd be hard pressed to call Menuhin "English"! But that 1953 recording with Furtwangler should be in any collection. Personally I prefer his later readings with Dorati and with Boulez, but much of that can be down to recording quality nothing more.

If you want a real "old-timer" recording of the Violin Concerto, try and find the recording of the work's première, with Zoltan Székely. Concertgebouw, Willem Mengelberg, what's not to go wow over? (Sound quality is I am afraid, truly awful though!)


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## 89Koechel

Thanks, CnC Bartok! ... I was a member of both iterations of the Willem Mengelberg Society, and am familiar with his great work ... and we don't mind inferior sound, anymore ... at least, I don't!


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## HerbertNorman

My Bartók marathon so far this week has been absolutely worth it . What a brilliant composer this man was! It hit me when I was listening to the divertimento, that it had been too , much too long ago that I had made time to listen to his work in depth!


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## elgar's ghost

I dearly wish that Hungaroton would re-release the below album featuring BB's two cycles of art songs from 1916. This is one of the more secretive corners of BB's output and the Hungaroton release is, I believe, the only recording on disc devoted to it. Also, a recording of the whole of BB's folksong arrangements for voice and piano would be just as welcome.


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## Neo Romanza

elgars ghost said:


> I dearly wish that Hungaroton would re-release the below album featuring BB's two cycles of art songs from 1916. This is one of the more secretive corners of BB's output and the Hungaroton release is, I believe, the only recording on disc devoted to it. Also, a recording of the whole of BB's folksong arrangements for voice and piano would be just as welcome.


I bought this Hungaroton set early last year (or year before that?) and I'm pretty sure most of the songs and arrangements you mentioned are found within:










Also, I wouldn't bet on Hungaroton reissuing anything as they've gone the streaming and digital download route nowadays it seems. Best thing to do is hunt down their CD releases via the used market. If you look hard enough, you'll find it even if it is at an outrageous price.


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## 89Koechel

elgars ghost & Neo Romanza - Thanks for those notes, about Hungaroton reissues. By now, one wonders if many Hungarians remember Bela B, as some of us wonder if many Swedes remember Jussi Bjorling, etc. Also, maybe one could mention (even if it's been mentioned, before) Bartok's piano music. One of my favorites is "For Children", in a recording with Dezso Ranki. Finally, there were duos >> Bartok, with the great violinist - Joseph Szigeti (1940), Bartok/Debussy/Beethoven - and they're still available, in certain forms, incl. YouTube & Amazon.


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## CnC Bartok

Ah! Some appreciation for Bartók's vocal works at last! There are unfortunately very few recordings of the songs for solo voice, that Julia Hamari one being the best one I know of, but there are /were some older ones around on Hungaroton, in that old Complete Edition. Probably best acquired as a download tbh these days, unless you have a spare kidney to sell...

I love his choral music even more, Cantata Profana is a genuine masterpiece, but the smaller scale works like the Village Scenes, the 27 Choruses, From Olden Times are important in his output. These newer CDs are worth seeking out:


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## Merl

I'm not a massive fan of Bartok's orchestral output but enjoy his string quartets a great deal (apologies if I've already said this on the thread). I like different ensembles for each quartet but a few are consistently fine across the cycle.


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## Sid James

*A Bartok diary - listening, reading, observations* (Part 2 of 2)

_"This dear, native, primitive folk! The way they stand around the phonograph, the way they strive to put more songs into that machine! Of course they are not interested in the results of the collection, only the big 'tuba' ...and how inexhaustible they are in songs![...even though] Darazs is a small community, about 1,000 inhabitants...

I stay and collect here in a small peasant hut, Tuesday was a holiday; around 4 o'clock the people began to march in, the small ones and the big ones. And the songs began to pour. A charming episode occured as I placed a good hunk of a man in front of the phonograph: he respectfully donned his hat in front of the horn. The people broke out in laughter! Then a young girl began to sing a love song about Hansel. I did not quite get the name, but the others did and shouted: Martin, Martin should be in the song! It was her sweetheart's name...

From the thirty people exhaling in the small room, the walls, the floor, my bed were dripping wet. I began to congratulate myself: cold room, soaking floor, wet walls and, on top of it, wet sheets! ...I put my winter coat on the bed and slept with my clothes on, covering myself with my blanket. This is the way the first day ended in the village of Darazs. And I must say, I endured all that and many other hardships."_
- Bartok, 1909.

*Romanian Folk Dances* (orchestral version, 1917)
*Piano music:
Allegro barbaro* (1911)
*Three Hungarian Folksongs from the Csik District* (1908)
*Fifteen Hungarian Peasant Songs* (1914-18)
*Sonatina* (1915)

In the first two decades of the Twentieth Century, Bartok worked with his colleague Zoltan Kodaly, recording and collating the folk music of South-Eastern Europe. The impact of folk song on Bartok's music becomes apparent from about 1908, in works including the piano bagatelles.

Bartok's *piano music* served different purposes - as creative responses to folk song, as aids to teaching his piano students, and as repertoire for him to play at his recitals. In his native Hungary, he was mainly known and accepted for his folk song collections, whereas in Western Europe premieres of his more challenging works where more eagerly anticipated.

These pieces illustrate the two polarities which would more or less be maintained throughout Bartok's career: passion coupled with a sharp intellect. At one extreme are works like the *Allegro barbaro*, which make free use of folk idioms. Much like Prokofiev's_ Suggestion Diabolique_, this explosion of pent up energy still packs a punch.

At the other end of the spectrum are the folk song and dance arrangements, which are closer to the source material. Bartok's synthesis of the irregular rhythms, odd harmonies and unique instruments of folk music sound as fresh today as they must have a century ago.

Listening to this music takes us back to the time when folk music was the music of the people, passed on across generations.

Most of the pieces are about a minute long, unadorned in their beauty and simplicity. The ones that are longer (such as the _Ballade_, which is a three minute set of short variations, in the *Fifteen Hungarian Peasant Songs*) seem like a universe in comparison. They pack so much into a short space of time. One of my favourite moments is the _Allegro_ which closes the set of fifteen - the piano virtually becomes a cimbalom.

The *Romanian Folk Dances* where originally for piano and later orchestrated. Judging by the amount of transcriptions and arrangements that have been made since, this must be Bartok's most popular work.

Video: _Bela Bartok in New York_. Esa-Pekka Salonen visits places in New York that Bartok knew, including Columbia University where he looks at the original score of _Piano Concerto No. 3_.






*Piano Concerto No. 3* (1945)

With this final work, Bartok came full circle in the journey which started with his first opus, the _Rhapsody_ I discussed earlier.

Bartok said that "with maturity comes the wish to economize - to be more simple. Maturity is the period when one finds just measure." _*Piano Concerto No. 3*_ is among his late works composed in the USA, where the turbulence in Europe had forced him to emigrate. There is none of the brutal force found in the earlier concertos, and the tone is conversational rather than combative.

It's a fascinating work on many levels. There is a sense of simplicity, clarity and nuance. The spirit of Bach is still present, in the chorale that opens the second movement and in the bouncy fugue of the finale. Some aspects, like the passages for woodwinds and flute in the first movement, bring to mind the decorative and playful qualities of Mozart, as does the joy and wit apparent in the finale.

The same instruments are employed to imitate birdsong in the middle movement. Here, Bartok transcribed the birds he heard while staying at a sanatorium in North Carolina. "The birds have become completely drunk and are putting on concerts the likes of which I've never heard," Bartok wrote to his son. These passages share an Oriental quality with Ravel's _Mother Goose Suite_.

The last 17 bars of the concerto where completed by Tibor Serly, and it was premiered in 1946, the year after Bartok's death. At that time, the _Concerto for Orchestra_ gave Bartok's music traction in the USA, while his music was to be increasingly performed again in Europe as it recovered from the war.

Recognition may have come too late for the composer, but his friends and followers where determined to establish his legacy beyond being just another passing fad. Antal Dorati said that by the mid-1950's, "Bartok was universally recognised and admired, his music widely peformed."

It was thanks to musicians such as Dorati, Yehudi Menuhin, Fritz Reiner and Ernest Ansermet that Bartok's music entered the repertoire. Their interpretations have been captured on record for future generations to enjoy.

Video: _Ben Dunlap - The life-long learner._ Dunlap tells the inspiring story of his friend Sandor Teszler, a Hungarian Holocaust survivor who made his home in South Carolina. Teszler was a fan of Bartok's music, and paid for his gravestone in New York. He introduced Dunlap to Bartok's _Piano Concerto No. 3_.






The recordings which I listened to:

_Romanian Folk Dances_ - Suisse Romande/Ernest Ansermet, Eloquence 442 9989





























_Piano music_ - Balazs Szokolay, piano, Naxos 8.550451
_Allegro barbaro _




_Csik District_ 




_Fifteen Songs_








_Sonatina_ 





_Concerto_ - Julius Katchen, piano/Suisse Romande/Ansermet, Eloquence 442 9989













Selected sources:

Bailey, A. (Ed.), _Cambridge Companion to Bartok_, 2001.

Dorati, A., _Notes of Seven Decades_, Hodder and Stoughton, London, 1979.


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## CnC Bartok

^^^ Just as an interesting aside, the village of Darazs mentioned is in modern-day Croatia, a couple of kilometres across the Hungarian border from Mohacs. Dráž in Croatian.


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## Neo Romanza

Sid James said:


> *A Bartok diary - listening, reading, observations* (Part 2 of 2)
> 
> _"This dear, native, primitive folk! The way they stand around the phonograph, the way they strive to put more songs into that machine! Of course they are not interested in the results of the collection, only the big 'tuba' ...and how inexhaustible they are in songs![...even though] Darazs is a small community, about 1,000 inhabitants...
> 
> I stay and collect here in a small peasant hut, Tuesday was a holiday; around 4 o'clock the people began to march in, the small ones and the big ones. And the songs began to pour. A charming episode occured as I placed a good hunk of a man in front of the phonograph: he respectfully donned his hat in front of the horn. The people broke out in laughter! Then a young girl began to sing a love song about Hansel. I did not quite get the name, but the others did and shouted: Martin, Martin should be in the song! It was her sweetheart's name...
> 
> From the thirty people exhaling in the small room, the walls, the floor, my bed were dripping wet. I began to congratulate myself: cold room, soaking floor, wet walls and, on top of it, wet sheets! ...I put my winter coat on the bed and slept with my clothes on, covering myself with my blanket. This is the way the first day ended in the village of Darazs. And I must say, I endured all that and many other hardships."_
> - Bartok, 1909.
> 
> *Romanian Folk Dances* (orchestral version, 1917)
> *Piano music:
> Allegro barbaro* (1911)
> *Three Hungarian Folksongs from the Csik District* (1908)
> *Fifteen Hungarian Peasant Songs* (1914-18)
> *Sonatina* (1915)
> 
> In the first two decades of the Twentieth Century, Bartok worked with his colleague Zoltan Kodaly, recording and collating the folk music of South-Eastern Europe. The impact of folk song on Bartok's music becomes apparent from about 1908, in works including the piano bagatelles.
> 
> Bartok's *piano music* served different purposes - as creative responses to folk song, as aids to teaching his piano students, and as repertoire for him to play at his recitals. In his native Hungary, he was mainly known and accepted for his folk song collections, whereas in Western Europe premieres of his more challenging works where more eagerly anticipated.
> 
> These pieces illustrate the two polarities which would more or less be maintained throughout Bartok's career: passion coupled with a sharp intellect. At one extreme are works like the *Allegro barbaro*, which make free use of folk idioms. Much like Prokofiev's_ Suggestion Diabolique_, this explosion of pent up energy still packs a punch.
> 
> At the other end of the spectrum are the folk song and dance arrangements, which are closer to the source material. Bartok's synthesis of the irregular rhythms, odd harmonies and unique instruments of folk music sound as fresh today as they must have a century ago.
> 
> Listening to this music takes us back to the time when folk music was the music of the people, passed on across generations.
> 
> Most of the pieces are about a minute long, unadorned in their beauty and simplicity. The ones that are longer (such as the _Ballade_, which is a three minute set of short variations, in the *Fifteen Hungarian Peasant Songs*) seem like a universe in comparison. They pack so much into a short space of time. One of my favourite moments is the _Allegro_ which closes the set of fifteen - the piano virtually becomes a cimbalom.
> 
> The *Romanian Folk Dances* where originally for piano and later orchestrated. Judging by the amount of transcriptions and arrangements that have been made since, this must be Bartok's most popular work.
> 
> Video: _Bela Bartok in New York_. Esa-Pekka Salonen visits places in New York that Bartok knew, including Columbia University where he looks at the original score of _Piano Concerto No. 3_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Piano Concerto No. 3* (1945)
> 
> With this final work, Bartok came full circle in the journey which started with his first opus, the _Rhapsody_ I discussed earlier.
> 
> Bartok said that "with maturity comes the wish to economize - to be more simple. Maturity is the period when one finds just measure." _*Piano Concerto No. 3*_ is among his late works composed in the USA, where the turbulence in Europe had forced him to emigrate. There is none of the brutal force found in the earlier concertos, and the tone is conversational rather than combative.
> 
> It's a fascinating work on many levels. There is a sense of simplicity, clarity and nuance. The spirit of Bach is still present, in the chorale that opens the second movement and in the bouncy fugue of the finale. Some aspects, like the passages for woodwinds and flute in the first movement, bring to mind the decorative and playful qualities of Mozart, as does the joy and wit apparent in the finale.
> 
> The same instruments are employed to imitate birdsong in the middle movement. Here, Bartok transcribed the birds he heard while staying at a sanatorium in North Carolina. "The birds have become completely drunk and are putting on concerts the likes of which I've never heard," Bartok wrote to his son. These passages share an Oriental quality with Ravel's _Mother Goose Suite_.
> 
> The last 17 bars of the concerto where completed by Tibor Serly, and it was premiered in 1946, the year after Bartok's death. At that time, the _Concerto for Orchestra_ gave Bartok's music traction in the USA, while his music was to be increasingly performed again in Europe as it recovered from the war.
> 
> Recognition may have come too late for the composer, but his friends and followers where determined to establish his legacy beyond being just another passing fad. Antal Dorati said that by the mid-1950's, "Bartok was universally recognised and admired, his music widely peformed."
> 
> It was thanks to musicians such as Dorati, Yehudi Menuhin, Fritz Reiner and Ernest Ansermet that Bartok's music entered the repertoire. Their interpretations have been captured on record for future generations to enjoy.
> 
> Video: _Ben Dunlap - The life-long learner._ Dunlap tells the inspiring story of his friend Sandor Teszler, a Hungarian Holocaust survivor who made his home in South Carolina. Teszler was a fan of Bartok's music, and paid for his gravestone in New York. He introduced Dunlap to Bartok's _Piano Concerto No. 3_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The recordings which I listened to:
> 
> _Romanian Folk Dances_ - Suisse Romande/Ernest Ansermet, Eloquence 442 9989
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Piano music_ - Balazs Szokolay, piano, Naxos 8.550451
> _Allegro barbaro _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Csik District_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Fifteen Songs_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Sonatina_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Concerto_ - Julius Katchen, piano/Suisse Romande/Ansermet, Eloquence 442 9989
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selected sources:
> 
> Bailey, A. (Ed.), _Cambridge Companion to Bartok_, 2001.
> 
> Dorati, A., _Notes of Seven Decades_, Hodder and Stoughton, London, 1979.


And I'd actually like to read _your_ opinions of the music and not someone else's. Anyone can copy-and-paste what someone else wrote.


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## Sid James

CnC Bartok said:


> ^^^ Just as an interesting aside, the village of Darazs mentioned is in modern-day Croatia, a couple of kilometres across the Hungarian border from Mohacs. Dráž in Croatian.


That sounds right, because most of Bartok's collecting was done before 1918, when places like that where part of Hungary. You've done a good job with showing the accents, I'm too lazy for that. The proper name in Hungarian is Darázs.

Incidentally, isn't that a great anecdote? Bartok's writings show a keen sense of observation. Its like the written equivalent of this famous photo, of Bartok with villagers lined up ready to record:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...sic.jpg/629px-Bartok_recording_folk_music.jpg



Neo Romanza said:


> And I'd actually like to read _your_ opinions of the music and not someone else's. Anyone can copy-and-paste what someone else wrote.


These diaries are meant to be a mix of things, as the title says "listening, reading, observations." Ultimately its about sharing my passion for the music, and inviting others to do the same.


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## Neo Romanza

Sid James said:


> These diaries are meant to be a mix of things, as the title says "listening, reading, observations." Ultimately its about sharing my passion for the music, and inviting others to do the same.


I can totally relate with the "sharing your passion" comment, but I'd love to read of your own experiences with the music.


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## Sid James

Neo Romanza said:


> I can totally relate with the "sharing your passion" comment, but I'd love to read of your own experiences with the music.


I did include my experiences with the music. Just for your benefit, I have put a few in *bold* below. I mean experience in a fairly restrictive sense, because its not always easy to separate one thing from another. Of course, if I repeatedly wrote "I think" it would make for poor writing in such a long piece.

From the first post:



Sid James said:


> *A Bartok diary - listening, reading, observations *(Part 1 of 2)
> 
> _"Deriving from the East, Bartok's music could not but appeal to me, but in his greatness a local heritage had been absorbed, interpreted and recast as a universal message, speaking to our age and culture and to every other. As he elevated folk music to universal validity, so he gave noble dimensions to human emotion. Strong with the earthy, primeval strength of its origins, his music has also the cultivated strength of a steely, ruthless discipline which refuses all indulgence."_
> - Yehudi Menuhin.
> 
> *Rhapsody for Piano and Orchestra* (1904-5)
> 
> The *Rhapsody* is an impressive first opus, a substantial work showing Bartok's musical roots in Liszt. It also has some kinship with similar early works by Grieg and Rachmaninov.
> 
> The piece presents a vivid contrast of moods - mournful, sentimental, dreamy and triumphant. *I particularly like the dramatic opening (which brings to mind some of those old movie soundtracks, like Addinsell's Warsaw Concerto), the carnival atmosphere which emerges halfway through and the fadeout ending with piano delicately imitating cimbalom backed by horn.*
> 
> This piece remained in Bartok's repertoire as a concert pianist until the 1930's. He played it at Carnegie Hall in 1927, when it replaced his first concerto on the original program (the New York Philharmonic had difficulties rehearsing the concerto).
> 
> *Its taken me a while to get used to this piece, perhaps because I am not as much used to rhapsodies as to concertos. Although I enjoy it and no longer find it unwieldy, its free form and episodic nature initially presented a few challenges for me.*
> 
> Video: _Bela Bartok At the Crossroads_. Bartok expert Malcolm Gillies discusses how Hungary is at the crossroads of Europe, visits Bartok's birthplace across the border in Romania and demonstrates how he used folk tunes in his music.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Divertimento for Strings* (1939)
> 
> Neo-classicism drew upon music of the Baroque and Classical eras. While Prokofiev's _Symphony #1 "Classical"_ goes back to Haydn, Bartok's *Divertimento* goes back to Bach. There is lightness, but not playfulness, here. It's a bit like comparing the frivolity of Rococo architecture with the solidity of the Baroque.
> 
> The _Divertimento_ brilliantly combines the structure and techniques of the Baroque concerto grosso with earthy vigour drawn from folk music. There are not only vivid contrasts, but also a struggle, between light and darkness. The alternation and blending of themes from the solo string quartet and whole orchestra is thrilling to hear.
> 
> *This was among the first pieces I heard by Bartok, and I remember my reaction to the middle movement in particular. It functions as the emotional and structural core of the whole work. It chilled me to the bone. Without knowing it, I connected with an important aspect of modernity: horror. Music of the night it may be, but it clearly isn't about calmness or rest, more about disturbing thoughts that keep you awake.*
> 
> The _Divertimento_ was one of three works commissioned by Paul Sacher for his chamber orchestra in Switzerland. It was composed in 1939, and by the time it was premiered in 1940, the world was at war.
> 
> The recordings which I listened to:
> 
> _Rhapsody_ - Pascal Roge, piano/London SO/Walter Weller (Eloquence 480 4864)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Divertimento_ - Moscow Chamber Orchestra/Rudolf Barshai (Eloquence 442 8414)
> 
> ^ Not on youtube (a live recording by the same group is, but its sound quality is inferior). However, there are many other recordings of _Divertimento_ there, including Academy of St Martin in the Fields/Neville Marriner:
> 
> 
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> 
> Selected sources:
> 
> Yehudi Menuhin's autobiography _Unfinished Journey_, published in 1977 by Macdonald and Jane's, London.
> 
> _Music in Depth - Bartok's Divertimento for Strings_ by Rose T. Beckenridge for the Cleveland Orchestra:


And from the second post, where the aspects or parts of the pieces I chose to focus on and the comparisons I made with other composers (e.g. Prokofiev, Mozart, Ravel) where based upon what I heard, not read:



Sid James said:


> *A Bartok diary - listening, reading, observations* (Part 2 of 2)
> 
> _"This dear, native, primitive folk! The way they stand around the phonograph, the way they strive to put more songs into that machine! Of course they are not interested in the results of the collection, only the big 'tuba' ...and how inexhaustible they are in songs![...even though] Darazs is a small community, about 1,000 inhabitants...
> 
> I stay and collect here in a small peasant hut, Tuesday was a holiday; around 4 o'clock the people began to march in, the small ones and the big ones. And the songs began to pour. A charming episode occured as I placed a good hunk of a man in front of the phonograph: he respectfully donned his hat in front of the horn. The people broke out in laughter! Then a young girl began to sing a love song about Hansel. I did not quite get the name, but the others did and shouted: Martin, Martin should be in the song! It was her sweetheart's name...
> 
> From the thirty people exhaling in the small room, the walls, the floor, my bed were dripping wet. I began to congratulate myself: cold room, soaking floor, wet walls and, on top of it, wet sheets! ...I put my winter coat on the bed and slept with my clothes on, covering myself with my blanket. This is the way the first day ended in the village of Darazs. And I must say, I endured all that and many other hardships."_
> - Bartok, 1909.
> 
> *Romanian Folk Dances* (orchestral version, 1917)
> *Piano music:
> Allegro barbaro* (1911)
> *Three Hungarian Folksongs from the Csik District* (1908)
> *Fifteen Hungarian Peasant Songs* (1914-18)
> *Sonatina* (1915)
> 
> In the first two decades of the Twentieth Century, Bartok worked with his colleague Zoltan Kodaly, recording and collating the folk music of South-Eastern Europe. The impact of folk song on Bartok's music becomes apparent from about 1908, in works including the piano bagatelles.
> 
> Bartok's *piano music* served different purposes - as creative responses to folk song, as aids to teaching his piano students, and as repertoire for him to play at his recitals. In his native Hungary, he was mainly known and accepted for his folk song collections, whereas in Western Europe premieres of his more challenging works where more eagerly anticipated.
> 
> These pieces illustrate the two polarities which would more or less be maintained throughout Bartok's career: passion coupled with a sharp intellect. *At one extreme are works like the Allegro barbaro, which make free use of folk idioms. Much like Prokofiev's Suggestion Diabolique, this explosion of pent up energy still packs a punch. *
> 
> At the other end of the spectrum are the folk song and dance arrangements, which are closer to the source material. Bartok's synthesis of the irregular rhythms, odd harmonies and unique instruments of folk music sound as fresh today as they must have a century ago.
> 
> Listening to this music takes us back to the time when folk music was the music of the people, passed on across generations.
> 
> *Most of the pieces are about a minute long, unadorned in their beauty and simplicity. The ones that are longer (such as the Ballade, which is a three minute set of short variations, in the Fifteen Hungarian Peasant Songs) seem like a universe in comparison. They pack so much into a short space of time. One of my favourite moments is the Allegro which closes the set of fifteen - the piano virtually becomes a cimbalom.*
> 
> The *Romanian Folk Dances* where originally for piano and later orchestrated. Judging by the amount of transcriptions and arrangements that have been made since, this must be Bartok's most popular work.
> 
> Video: _Bela Bartok in New York_. Esa-Pekka Salonen visits places in New York that Bartok knew, including Columbia University where he looks at the original score of _Piano Concerto No. 3_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Piano Concerto No. 3* (1945)
> 
> With this final work, Bartok came full circle in the journey which started with his first opus, the _Rhapsody_ I discussed earlier.
> 
> Bartok said that "with maturity comes the wish to economize - to be more simple. Maturity is the period when one finds just measure." _*Piano Concerto No. 3*_ is among his late works composed in the USA, where the turbulence in Europe had forced him to emigrate. There is none of the brutal force found in the earlier concertos, and the tone is conversational rather than combative.
> 
> *It's a fascinating work on many levels. There is a sense of simplicity, clarity and nuance. The spirit of Bach is still present, in the chorale that opens the second movement and in the bouncy fugue of the finale. Some aspects, like the passages for woodwinds and flute in the first movement, bring to mind the decorative and playful qualities of Mozart, as does the joy and wit apparent in the finale. *
> 
> *The same instruments are employed to imitate birdsong in the middle movement. *Here, Bartok transcribed the birds he heard while staying at a sanatorium in North Carolina. "The birds have become completely drunk and are putting on concerts the likes of which I've never heard," Bartok wrote to his son. *These passages share an Oriental quality with Ravel's Mother Goose Suite.*
> 
> The last 17 bars of the concerto where completed by Tibor Serly, and it was premiered in 1946, the year after Bartok's death. At that time, the _Concerto for Orchestra_ gave Bartok's music traction in the USA, while his music was to be increasingly performed again in Europe as it recovered from the war.
> 
> Recognition may have come too late for the composer, but his friends and followers where determined to establish his legacy beyond being just another passing fad. Antal Dorati said that by the mid-1950's, "Bartok was universally recognised and admired, his music widely peformed."
> 
> It was thanks to musicians such as Dorati, Yehudi Menuhin, Fritz Reiner and Ernest Ansermet that Bartok's music entered the repertoire. Their interpretations have been captured on record for future generations to enjoy.
> 
> Video: _Ben Dunlap - The life-long learner._ Dunlap tells the inspiring story of his friend Sandor Teszler, a Hungarian Holocaust survivor who made his home in South Carolina. Teszler was a fan of Bartok's music, and paid for his gravestone in New York. He introduced Dunlap to Bartok's _Piano Concerto No. 3_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The recordings which I listened to:
> 
> _Romanian Folk Dances_ - Suisse Romande/Ernest Ansermet, Eloquence 442 9989
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> 
> _Piano music_ - Balazs Szokolay, piano, Naxos 8.550451
> _Allegro barbaro _
> 
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> 
> _Csik District_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Fifteen Songs_
> 
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> 
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> 
> _Sonatina_
> 
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> 
> _Concerto_ - Julius Katchen, piano/Suisse Romande/Ansermet, Eloquence 442 9989
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selected sources:
> 
> Bailey, A. (Ed.), _Cambridge Companion to Bartok_, 2001.
> 
> Dorati, A., _Notes of Seven Decades_, Hodder and Stoughton, London, 1979.


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## 89Koechel

Sid - your 01:36 - VERY-detailed, and thanks for the EMPHASES, in bold type ... plus, of course, all else. Well, if these haven't been mentioned, before ... the Two Portraits, Op. 5, and maybe the Viola Concerto for Small Orchestra, op. posthumous (edited by Tibor Serly). Also, is there a GREAT recording of The Miraculous Mandarin, of any type? I have a concert suite (of Mandarin) with the late Pierre Boulez/Philadelphia Orch., and the latter two, in the Dance Suite. For some (hopefully, not perverse ... haha) reason I still like how Bartok (or Prokofiev, his Russian contemporary) could work-IN some, seemingly-BARBARIC elements in his compositions, w/o "tearing the fabric", so to speak ... and work-IN some lyrical elements, thereby. .... Finally, and this is TRULY, even-more questionable ... was the late Fritz Reiner, and his exceptional Chicago Symphony of it's day & age - the exemplar of Bartok recordings, even considering those (esp. on the Hungaroton label) of the days, after the Reiner/Chicago groundbreakers?


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## CnC Bartok

^^^ I'd find it very difficult to state the Reiner was the yardstick for Bartok recordings, seeing as there are just recordings of the Concerto for Orchestra, Music for String, and the Hungarian Sketches, hardly a comprehensive survey....!

But they are bloody good recordings.

I'd say the exemplar recordings are found in either Ferenc Fricsay, or Georg Solti, or most likely Antal Dorati, but of course there's no definite answer to that. Modern day, either Fischer brother is superb too!


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## Sid James

Reiner was significant because he had studied under Bartok and from the outset had performed his works at every opportunity. A number of Bartok's students went on to be significant interpreters of his music, in terms of that generation which had some sort of direct link to the composer. To Reiner can be added Dorati and Solti. 

I think that its significant that Bartok only taught piano, which meant that his students where able to directly propagate his music, in other words bring it to the public as performers. This is a different sort of impact compared to, for example, Schoenberg’s students. He taught composition, therefore his students tended to concentrate on composing and teaching.


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## CnC Bartok

Ferenc Fricsay was also a Bartok student!

I think your point about him teaching performers rather than academics (not the right word, but you get my drift!) is very pertinent. It also seems he inspired a great deal of loyalty from his students too (then again, so did Schoenberg....)


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## Opisthokont

I find that bela bartok is sort of a "gateway drug". If you give someone a CD of bartok and come back a month later, you'll find them listening to Messiaen and Berio! I'm not sure what it is about Bartok that makes this so, but he is just wonderful. Someone I listened to years and years ago when I was just starting to listen to classical music and still listen to today regularly. Unlike many other composers who I adore for a month and then move on from, bartok has been a constant.


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## CnC Bartok

Opisthokont said:


> I find that bela bartok is sort of a "gateway drug". If you give someone a CD of bartok and come back a month later, you'll find them listening to Messiaen and Berio! I'm not sure what it is about Bartok that makes this so, but he is just wonderful. Someone I listened to years and years ago when I was just starting to listen to classical music and still listen to today regularly. Unlike many other composers who I adore for a month and then move on from, bartok has been a constant.


Took me longer than a month to graduate on to Messiaen or Berio......! But indeed, a constant, for me just about 40 years now....


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## Neo Romanza

Opisthokont said:


> I find that bela bartok is sort of a "gateway drug". If you give someone a CD of bartok and come back a month later, you'll find them listening to Messiaen and Berio! I'm not sure what it is about Bartok that makes this so, but he is just wonderful. Someone I listened to years and years ago when I was just starting to listen to classical music and still listen to today regularly. Unlike many other composers who I adore for a month and then move on from, bartok has been a constant.


This is actually strange. I personally don't feel that Bartók leads to Messiaen or Berio, although I'd say Debussy and, in particular, Koechlin lead to Messiaen while Dallapiccola leads to Berio. This makes more sense to me.  I do feel your sentiments about Bartók, though. For me, he's easily one of the greatest composers that I've ever encountered and he's been a constant for me for 14 years. By the way, I love your avatar. Arnie is certainly another favorite of mine.


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## juliante

Opisthokont said:


> I find that bela bartok is sort of a "gateway drug". If you give someone a CD of bartok and come back a month later, you'll find them listening to Messiaen and Berio! I'm not sure what it is about Bartok that makes this so, but he is just wonderful. Someone I listened to years and years ago when I was just starting to listen to classical music and still listen to today regularly. Unlike many other composers who I adore for a month and then move on from, bartok has been a constant.


Because he was a genius


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## Neo Romanza

CnC Bartok said:


> ^^^ I'd find it very difficult to state the Reiner was the yardstick for Bartok recordings, seeing as there are just recordings of the Concerto for Orchestra, Music for String, and the Hungarian Sketches, hardly a comprehensive survey....!
> 
> But they are bloody good recordings.
> 
> I'd say the exemplar recordings are found in either Ferenc Fricsay, or Georg Solti, or most likely Antal Dorati, but of course there's no definite answer to that. Modern day, either Fischer brother is superb too!


Agreed. While I think Reiner was excellent in the three works he recorded with the CSO, they certainly NOT the yardstick by any stretch. Last night I listened to the Zoltán Kocsis performance of the _Concerto for Orchestra_ and was blown away by it. Totally engrossing performance from start to finish. Kocsis and his Hungarian forces (the Hungarian National Philharmonic to be exact --- recorded on the Hungaroton label) completely nail the shifting rhythms and moods in this work so incredibly well. I've heard many performances of _Concerto for Orchestra_ through the years, but I might just have to say this one from Kocsis is the best one I've heard:


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## CnC Bartok

Neo Romanza said:


> Agreed. While I think Reiner was excellent in the three works he recorded with the CSO, they certainly NOT the yardstick by any stretch. Last night I listened to the Zoltán Kocsis performance of the _Concerto for Orchestra_ and was blown away by it. Totally engrossing performance from start to finish. Kocsis and his Hungarian forces (the Hungarian National Philharmonic to be exact --- recorded on the Hungaroton label) completely nail the shifting rhythms and moods in this work so incredibly well. I've heard many performances of _Concerto for Orchestra_ through the years, but I might just have to say this one from Kocsis is the best one I've heard:


That Kocsis Concerto for Orchestra is a real stunner, very much agree with your appraisal of it! I do think Kocsis should be considered one of the finer Bartok interpreters too, and I am not merely thinking of his wonderful survey of the Piano Works, which I would say emphatically is the yardstick ! He did a few CDs as conductor, that one above, and many of the other major pieces, from Kossuth to Music for Strings. Oh, and the Suites, and he's a great accompaniment to Kelemen in the Violin Concerto!

So sad he died so young, and with that particular project incomplete.


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## Neo Romanza

CnC Bartok said:


> That Kocsis Concerto for Orchestra is a real stunner, very much agree with your appraisal of it! I do think Kocsis should be considered one of the finer Bartok interpreters too, and I am not merely thinking of his wonderful survey of the Piano Works, which I would say emphatically is the yardstick ! He did a few CDs as conductor, that one above, and many of the other major pieces, from Kossuth to Music for Strings. Oh, and the Suites, and he's a great accompaniment to Kelemen in the Violin Concerto!
> 
> So sad he died so young, and with that particular project incomplete.


Yes, indeed. There have been several outstanding pianists to perform the solo piano music, but none have been as comprehensive and completely devoted to the cause quite like Kocsis. I do wish he could've completed that newer Hungaroton series (I own all of the recordings he conducted, but missed out on getting the disc with the _Violin Sonatas Nos. 1 & 2_ with Kelemen --- I'm actually still looking for it). Anyway, I can only imagine, for example, how excellent a _Miraculous Mandarin_ or even _Bluebeard's Castle_ would've been. Not to mention a newer recording of the PCs! Although, I doubt with him on piano but perhaps a younger Hungarian pianist of particular note.


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## CnC Bartok

Neo Romanza said:


> Yes, indeed. There have been several outstanding pianists to perform the solo piano music, but none have been as comprehensive and completely devoted to the cause quite like Kocsis. I do wish he could've completed that newer Hungaroton series (I own all of the recordings he conducted, but missed out on getting the disc with the _Violin Sonatas Nos. 1 & 2_ with Kelemen --- I'm actually still looking for it). Anyway, I can only imagine, for example, how excellent a _Miraculous Mandarin_ or even _Bluebeard's Castle_ would've been. Not to mention a newer recording of the PCs! Although, I doubt with him on piano but perhaps a younger Hungarian pianist of particular note.


I think you might find the Violin Sonatas CD on eBay, or occasionally on Discogs, but be prepared to sell a kidney for the privilege. The download is available in many places, but I suspect you (understandably) would prefer a physical copy. That's real ownership!!!

The one piece above all I would have liked Kocsis to have committed to disc would have to be the Cantata Profana.

Have you heard the Sefel discs of the main orchestral works (a bit picky in their selectivity tbh) under Arpad Joo? Some kf them made it onto CD, but sadly not all.....


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## HenryPenfold

CnC Bartok said:


> I suspect you (understandably) would prefer a physical copy. *That's real ownership*!!!


Owning the little silver disc is one thing, copyright is quite another!


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## Neo Romanza

CnC Bartok said:


> I think you might find the Violin Sonatas CD on eBay, or occasionally on Discogs, but be prepared to sell a kidney for the privilege. The download is available in many places, but I suspect you (understandably) would prefer a physical copy. That's real ownership!!!
> 
> The one piece above all I would have liked Kocsis to have committed to disc would have to be the Cantata Profana.
> 
> Have you heard the Sefel discs of the main orchestral works (a bit picky in their selectivity tbh) under Arpad Joo? Some kf them made it onto CD, but sadly not all.....


Yeah, I definitely prefer owning a CD to the digital download or worse, just streaming it. I haven't heard any of the Joo recordings, but, honestly, I've got enough Bartók to fill a city block.  Of course, I'm exaggerating, but I've been collecting classical music since 2008 and it seems I'm getting closer and closer to a stopping place with Bartók. Coincidently, I did just order the Warner Classics set, which I'm not expected to be dazzled by, but there were several performances in this box set that I didn't own already. So now I own the Warner Classics, Hungaroton and Decca box sets plus an inordinate amount of single releases.


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## SanAntone

Neo Romanza said:


> Yeah, I definitely prefer owning a CD to the digital download or worse, just streaming it.


I am listening to the Keleman, Kocsis recording of the Violin sonatas on Spotify. Good luck with your search to find a CD, but you can always stream it in the meantime.


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## Neo Romanza

SanAntone said:


> I am listening to the Keleman, Kocsis recording of the Violin sonatas on Spotify. Good luck with your search to find a CD, but you can always stream it in the meantime.


Thanks, SanAntone, but I own so many recordings of these sonatas, so I think I'll be okay in the meantime.


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## HerbertNorman

Neo Romanza said:


> Agreed. While I think Reiner was excellent in the three works he recorded with the CSO, they certainly NOT the yardstick by any stretch. Last night I listened to the Zoltán Kocsis performance of the _Concerto for Orchestra_ and was blown away by it. Totally engrossing performance from start to finish. Kocsis and his Hungarian forces (the Hungarian National Philharmonic to be exact --- recorded on the Hungaroton label) completely nail the shifting rhythms and moods in this work so incredibly well. I've heard many performances of _Concerto for Orchestra_ through the years, but I might just have to say this one from Kocsis is the best one I've heard:


Couldn't agree more , I think it's my favourite recording of the CfO. The Dance Suite and the Hungarian Peasant songs on the album are quite great too imho.


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## Neo Romanza

HerbertNorman said:


> Couldn't agree more , I think it's my favourite recording of the CfO. The Dance Suite and the Hungarian Peasant songs on the album are quite great too imho.


Absolutely. The whole album is superb.


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## Enthusiast

HerbertNorman said:


> Couldn't agree more , I think it's my favourite recording of the CfO. The Dance Suite and the Hungarian Peasant songs on the album are quite great too imho.


Count me in as a huge fan of the Koscis Bartok recordings - consistently the best we have had (and we have had some great ones).


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## 89Koechel

For what they're worth, there're a NUMBER of excellent examples of "The Miraculous Mandarin" Suite, on YouTube. Ivan Fischer, Solti and even a Russian Orchestra contain some of these performances ... and one can find Boulez, also. I even have a dub of the late Istvan Kertesz/Philadelphia Orchestra, from 1970, and the orchestral playing is, as one can imagine, PRODIGIOUS. i don't know HOW Bela B transcribed the lurid story, itself, into such a remarkable output, but there the result IS, for all to listen to. It's genesis has been described, in journals, as "the stylized image of an anonymous metropolis", and the 3 thugs (involved) can refer to the French term - apache! Anyway, it's great to have the YouTube representations, as the cameras revolve around different parts of the orchestra, as the oboe stands forth, then the other woodwinds, and the big tuba, etc. ... as ALL of the various elements are "rounded-into" a cohesive WHOLE, even given the exceptional rhythmic/melodic developments of this work, which came only a SHORT time after a similar one/parallel - Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, from 1913.


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## Chibi Ubu

As once I was a percussionist in the U of U Symphony Orchestra, we performed Bartok's Concerto For Orchestra. There is nothing more rewarding than to be a part of the performance, onstage, and live! Loved this piece and still do...


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## Neo Romanza

89Koechel said:


> For what they're worth, there're a NUMBER of excellent examples of "The Miraculous Mandarin" Suite, on YouTube. Ivan Fischer, Solti and even a Russian Orchestra contain some of these performances ... and one can find Boulez, also. I even have a dub of the late Istvan Kertesz/Philadelphia Orchestra, from 1970, and the orchestral playing is, as one can imagine, PRODIGIOUS. i don't know HOW Bela B transcribed the lurid story, itself, into such a remarkable output, but there the result IS, for all to listen to. It's genesis has been described, in journals, as "the stylized image of an anonymous metropolis", and the 3 thugs (involved) can refer to the French term - apache! Anyway, it's great to have the YouTube representations, as the cameras revolve around different parts of the orchestra, as the oboe stands forth, then the other woodwinds, and the big tuba, etc. ... as ALL of the various elements are "rounded-into" a cohesive WHOLE, even given the exceptional rhythmic/melodic developments of this work, which came only a SHORT time after a similar one/parallel - Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, from 1913.


Please bear in mind that there's a difference between the complete _Miraculous Mandarin_ and the suite. The suite cuts 20+ minutes of music and doesn't include the wordless chorus. While the suite has been recorded a number of times, the full ballet is definitely the best way to listen to this magnificent work.


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## John O

Lang said:


> I love the gentle, life-enhancing qualities of the third piano concerto, and cannot reconcile this with the fact that he wrote it while he was dying.


And he references Beethoven Op 132 (iii) in the slow movement. A movement that Beethoven wrote after recovering from an illness which he thought he was going to die from.


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## CnC Bartok

Thread bump for Jimbo!


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