# The greatest baritone roles



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Confession: I love baritones. Those beautiful losers! I always root for them to get the girl, and they never do...

I'm always looking to broaden my bucket list of operas to see, so, I would love to hear people's opinions on what the greatest baritone roles are. (in different repertoires, or just overall.) What are the pinnacle roles for baritones? And, considering that they usually seem to be stuck playing the villain, the best friend, or the also-ran... are there any baritone roles that you find more interesting, as characters?

I'm trying to think of an opera in the standard repertoire where the focal character is a baritone. Only Rigoletto springs to mind, but admittedly I haven't had my coffee yet. I recently watched The Nose, which features a baritone in the lead, but that's not exactly a role in the standard repertoire. 

On a related note, I've never really understood -- going by standard 19th century Italian opera logic -- why papa Germont in La Traviata is a baritone. It seems to me that a basso would be more convincing as a stern paternal figure who seems to hold an inexplicably influential hold over the heroine...


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Thomas' Hamlet is a baritone 'focal character' in a young, leading role.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Alfredo's father in *La Traviata* seems an interesting role, especially since his character develops, and also serves to bring out more depth in Violetta's persona.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

In Mozart, the obvious one is Don Giovanni. In Verdi, we have Rigoletto, a leading role with all the acting interest of a character part, and Falstaff, probably the greatest comic role for a baritone. In Wagner, the Dutchman in _Der Fliegende Hollander _and Hans Sachs in _Die Meistersinger_ are central in their operas, and Wotan might be considered the principal character of the _Ring_, even though his actual presence diminishes after _Die Walkure_. He and Alberich, also a baritone, share the spotlight in _Das Rheingold_. The Dutchman, by the way, gets the girl, even if the wedding is a bit unconventional.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Hearing Ezio Pinza strut his stuff in South Pacific. Not an opera, but what a voice!!


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> In Mozart, the obvious one is Don Giovanni. In Verdi, we have Rigoletto, a leading role with all the acting interest of a character part, and Falstaff, probably the greatest comic role for a baritone. In Wagner, the Dutchman in _Der Fliegende Hollander _and Hans Sachs in _Die Meistersinger_ are central in their operas, and Wotan might be considered the principal character of the _Ring_, even though his actual presence diminishes after _Die Walkure_. He and Alberich, also a baritone, share the spotlight in _Das Rheingold_.


Great examples :tiphat:, but they are mostly villains (the Don, Alberich) anti heroes (the Don again, Rigoletto, Falstaff) and fathers or father figures (Hans Sachs, Wotan, Rigoletto again). The Dutchman is a good one because he gets a love interest. (I'll pretend that I know his story from Wagner's opera of that name rather than from Spongebob. ) I wonder whether the OP was asking for baritones in conventional 'hero' roles as I'd assumed, or just for meaty baritone parts?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Hearing Ezio Pinza strut his stuff in South Pacific. Not an opera, but what a voice!!


Not a baritone either..... :lol:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

What a great idea for a thread!!

My absolute favourite opera is _Simon Boccanegra_ and a baritone sings the title role. _Simon_ is a complex character who is neither villain nor friend. He starts off as a pirate who swashed his buckle (which resulted in a daughter) and ends up as Doge.

Below is the 'Council Chamber scene' (whole opera is on YouTube and is an excellent version)






My absolute second favourite opera is _Macbeth_ and a baritone sings the title role. Pattern here somewhere. 

Macbeth is Macbeth and as well as stabbing Duncan and arranging for Banco to be murdered has some gorgeous stuff to sing.

The superb Željko Lučić singing one of the heart breaking arias.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Great examples :tiphat:, but they are mostly villains (the Don, Alberich) anti heroes (the Don again, Rigoletto, Falstaff) and fathers or father figures (Hans Sachs, Wotan, Rigoletto again). The Dutchman is a good one because he gets a love interest. (I'll pretend that I know his story from Wagner's opera of that name rather than from Spongebob. ) I wonder whether the OP was asking for baritones in conventional 'hero' roles as I'd assumed, or just for meaty baritone parts?


And I quote: "I'm trying to think of an opera in the standard repertoire where the focal character is a baritone."

How about Tchakovsky's Eugene Onegin? Is he focal enough (even if Lenski gets a better aria)? Then there's Berg's Wozzeck, and Schoenberg's Moses.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> And I quote: "I'm trying to think of an opera in the standard repertoire where the focal character is a baritone."
> 
> How about Tchakovsky's Eugene Onegin? Is he focal enough (even if Lenski gets a better aria)? Then there's Berg's Wozzeck, and Schoenberg's Moses.


I think they are all focal enough. I was perhaps confused by the OP's '_considering that they usually seem to be stuck playing the villain, the best friend, or the also-ran... are there any baritone roles that you find more interesting, as characters?_' into thinking that he didn't want villains, best friends, etc- but I think that was probably my fault for not reading it carefully enough.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Best and most favorite baritone role for me is Posa in _Don Carlo_. It brings me to my knees every time.
Next I guess would be a toss up between Scarpia in _Tosca_ and Renato in _Ballo in Maschera_.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Best and most favorite baritone role for me is Posa in _Don Carlo_. It brings me to my knees every time.
> Next I guess would be a toss up between Scarpia in _Tosca_ and Renato in _Ballo in Maschera_.


I think Puccini's _Tosca_ should really be called _Scarpia_. Even though he gets bumped off in act 2, he controls the action and wins in the end. Tosca and Cavaradossi are not all that interesting; Maria Callas was rather dismissive of Tosca, and when asked about her definitive portrayal she said that if you find a role uninteresting you just have to work all the harder at it. Joseph Kerman, who famously called the opera a "shabby little shocker," agreed that Scarpia was at the heart of it.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Does he win in the end, though? Isn't Tosca's suicide an assertion of herself, like The Duchess of Malfi - 'I am Duchess of Malfi still'?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Ingélou said:


> Does he win in the end, though? Isn't Tosca's suicide an assertion of herself, like The Duchess of Malfi - 'I am Duchess of Malfi still'?


Good point. Perhaps a 'Pyrrhic victory' should be known as a 'Scarpiac victory' instead.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I think Puccini's _Tosca_ should really be called _Scarpia_. Even though he gets bumped off in act 2, he controls the action and wins in the end. Tosca and Cavaradossi are not all that interesting; Maria Callas was rather dismissive of Tosca, and when asked about her definitive portrayal she said that if you find a role uninteresting you just have to work all the harder at it. Joseph Kerman, who famously called the opera a "shabby little shocker ,"agreed that Scarpia was at the heart of it.


Just not when Callas is front and center.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Ingélou said:


> Does he win in the end, though? Isn't Tosca's suicide an assertion of herself, like The Duchess of Malfi - 'I am Duchess of Malfi still.'?


I don't think so, except to the extent that she'd rather commit suicide than be taken prisoner by Scarpia's sadistic regime. But then any suicide can be read as self-assertion, in that living feels like a worse option. Tosca was driven to violence at the end of act 2, and now she's driven to it again. And Scarpia is the last name on her lips - unless we include God, who hasn't been paying much attention to her up to now. Evil triumphs: no redemption.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Lots to choose from here.

One of my favourites, Piero Cappuccilli, singing _Il balen del suo sorriso_.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Operas I can think of off the top of my head that are named for the baritone:

Il Barbiere di Siviglia-Rossini
Verdi Nabucco, Macbeth, Simon Boccanegra, Rigoletto
Falstaff-Verdi (well, or sometimes a bass-baritone)
Don Giovanni, as has been mentioned
Borodin-Prince Igor (or a bass-baritone)
Don Pasquale (usually a bass)
Porgy and Bess-Gershwin
Handel-Julius Caesar (or bass-baritone)
Mozart-Nozze di Figaro
Puccini-Gianni Schicchi
Tchaikovsky-Eugene Onegin
Thomas Hamlet
Wagner Flying Dutchman

I'm sure there are others but these, more or less in the "standard repertoire," occur to me. 

Best Regards, 

George


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As noted above, Figaro in both Mozart & Rossini. Also the Count in Mozart. And Figaro gets Susanna


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Wow, what a response!!

To clarify, I'm looking for villains, best friends, or also-rans (in addition to others) that you find _interesting_ -- musically or dramatically.

And yes, I keep forgetting the bass/baritone roles like Don Giovanni. And some of them I have not seen/heard, like Eugene Onegin. Hey, I'm trying to fill in the gaps.

Speaking of Don Giovanni, there's a sort of "Commendatore" moment in La Traviata right before Germont starts in on "Di Provenza" - BOOM! Big Daddy's here. I guess musically, but not in the libretto ("_Mio figlio! Oh, quanto soffri! Oh, tergi il pianto, ritorna di tuo padre orgoglio e vanto"_) I dunno, Germont is just a strange and interesting character to me, as everything seems to depend on him being able to screw up Violetta's and Alfredo's heads. He's always saying such nice, reasonable things, but he's such a wrecker.

This thread was prompted by the Andrea Chenier thread where we got to discussing Carlo Gerard and how he was maybe more interesting than the hero/heroine...


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

graziesignore said:


> ... This thread was prompted by the Andrea Chenier thread where we got to discussing Carlo Gerard and how he was maybe more interesting than the hero/heroine...


The baritone role is _always_ more interesting than the hero/heroine role. 

I think Papageno is the most interesting character in _Die Zauberflöte_.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Yes! Why is it that the baritone is the only character who ever seems to _learn_ anything?? My favorite moment in Don Carlo is when Posa realizes, "Wow, this situation is totally effed -- someone needs to die, and that someone is me."


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

graziesignore said:


> Yes! Why is it that the baritone is the only character who ever seems to _learn_ anything?? My favorite moment in Don Carlo is when Posa realizes, "Wow, this situation is totally effed -- someone needs to die, and that someone is me."


:lol: ............


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

We baritones are just _deeper_ than the tenors, but that's not saying a whole heckuva lot. We have to do a lot more than just preen. One gemmy little cameo role where _the baritone is the lover _is Silvio in _I Pagliacci,_ where he gets to sing that absolutely gorgeous love duet with Nedda: "Silvio? A quest'ora ... che imprudenza!" "E allor perchè, tu m'hai stregato, se vuol lasciarmi senza pietà, quei bacio tuo, perchè me l'hai dato, fra spasmi ardenti di voluttà" ... "Tutto scordiam!" It's really fun to sing, but it's one-dimensional. He's just, well, horny.

Compare that to the baritone Tonio, who (dressed as the fool Taddeo in the Commedia dell'Arte) sings the Prologue to the opera that sets up the whole play-in-a-play shtick, reminding the audience that the actors are real people, too. " ... poichè siam uomini, di carne e d'ossa."

Best Regards, 

George


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Double post, sorry for that


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I think Puccini's _Tosca_ should really be called _Scarpia_. Even though he gets bumped off in act 2, he controls the action and wins in the end.


Okay, Tosca didn't win - but how could Scarpia be said to have been the final winner?
Not only is he dead - but half his plan has misfired - he miscalculated, and he didn't get the satisfaction he was counting on.
Scarpia's erstwhile actions control the action - not Scarpia.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> Okay, *Tosca didn't win* - but how could Scarpia be said to have been the final winner?
> Not only is he dead - but half his plan has misfired - he miscalculated, and he didn't get the satisfaction he was counting on.
> His erstwhile actions control the action - not him.


Oh no! You spoiled the ending for me!! I HATE THAT!!!


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> I think Puccini's _Tosca_ should really be called _Scarpia_. Even though he gets bumped off in act 2, he controls the action and wins in the end. Tosca and Cavaradossi are not all that interesting; Maria Callas was rather dismissive of Tosca, and when asked about her definitive portrayal she said that if you find a role uninteresting you just have to work all the harder at it. Joseph Kerman, who famously called the opera a "shabby little shocker," agreed that Scarpia was at the heart of it.


I think musically you have a good point as the first thing you hear in the opera is Scarpia's motif.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I think Posa, Don Giovanni and Scarpia are great roles. Also love the Count di Luna role in Trovatore.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Ingélou said:


> Okay, Tosca didn't win - but how could Scarpia be said to have been the final winner?
> Not only is he dead - but half his plan has misfired - he miscalculated, and he didn't get the satisfaction he was counting on.
> Scarpia's erstwhile actions control the action - not Scarpia.


I think that's the definition of tragedy, isn't it? No one wins, and everybody still dies...

As for baritones roles, let me throw out some rough criteria for a "pinnacle role" (whatever that means): some combination of 1) demanding to sing and 2) demanding to act. (And I could see "stage time" being a factor as well, if the opera is really long or physically demanding...) What is THE most demanding baritone role?

And a different question - is there any such thing as a mad scene for baritones?


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Is it worth starting a thread to ask about the greatest bass (not bass-baritone) roles?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

MoonlightSonata said:


> Is it worth starting a thread to ask about the greatest bass (not bass-baritone) roles?


Please do 

You'll have to get the mods to limit the number of my posts though


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Ingélou said:


> Okay, Tosca didn't win - but how could Scarpia be said to have been the final winner?
> Not only is he dead - but half his plan has misfired - he miscalculated, and he didn't get the satisfaction he was counting on.
> Scarpia's erstwhile actions control the action - not Scarpia.


If Scarpia had been a good guy, defeated the villain, and saved the lives of the other characters at the cost of his own life, wouldn't he be celebrated as a victor even in death? Scarpia continues to determine the outcome even after he's dead. That's power.

Joseph Kerman, and jflatter a few posts back, point out that Scarpia's motif begins the opera. Kerman criticizes Puccini for ending it with the sad tune Cavaradossi sings in act 3, and I think it should have ended with Scarpia's music as well. Puccini probably identified too much with the suffering woman (his favorite subject) to do that, but it would have made a more pertinent statement. It's also worth recalling that Tosca's musical moment in the spotlight, "Vissi d'arte," was thought by Puccini to be a dramatic mistake since it held up the action, but he was persuaded to leave it in because it gave the soprano her only aria. Without that momentary shift of attention to Tosca, the second act would belong entirely to Scarpia up to the moment of his death. He and his power and influence, personal and political, determine everything the other characters do, from Cavaradossi sheltering Angelotti to Tosca leaping into the Tiber. Scarpia acts, Rome reacts.

Apparently the original play by Sardou filled out the other characters a little more. But Puccini knew what to concentrate on.

Yes, _Scarpia_ by Giacomo Puccini.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I've long thought that Miller in Verdi's LUISA MILLER is a wonderful role with a lot of emotional range. Here's my favorite scene from the opera, sung and acted by Sherrill Milnes as Miller and Renata Scotto as Luisa:


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Reaching back to the early days of the fach, I've always loved the baritone roles in Bellini's operas. Especially, for sure, the ones in his two last operas:

Filippo Maria Visconti, in "Beatrice di Tenda": 




Riccardo Forth, in "I puritani":


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Jack Rance - not a whole lot to sing, but a lot to act!
Scarpia - of course, one of the best baritone roles ever!
Don Carlo di Vargas
Nelusko - what a great baritone role!


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Carlo Gerard from Andrea Chenier
Michele from Il Tabarro - answering my own question, maybe "Nulla silenzio" is the closest we get to a "mad scene" for baritones? 

Ah, but what is The Greatest? What role does a baritone have to nail in order to be considered top flight?


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

graziesignore said:


> Carlo Gerard from Andrea Chenier
> Michele from Il Tabarro - answering my own question, maybe "Nulla silenzio" is the closest we get to a "mad scene" for baritones?
> 
> Ah, but what is The Greatest? What role does a baritone have to nail in order to be considered top flight?


The number at the end of Act II, I think it is, of Verdi's NABUCCO is like a Mad Scene for baritones.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

graziesignore said:


> Ah, but what is The Greatest? What role does a baritone have to nail in order to be considered top flight?


I would imagine it would be one of the Wagner roles but not knowing Wagner at all I can't make suggestions. Maybe the more knowledgeable members can help.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

sospiro said:


> I would imagine it would be one of the Wagner roles but not knowing Wagner at all I can't make suggestions. Maybe the more knowledgeable members can help.


As far as the Verdi baritone repertoire is concerned, Simon Boccanegra is generally considered to be the apex.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

sospiro said:


> I would imagine it would be one of the Wagner roles but not knowing Wagner at all I can't make suggestions. Maybe the more knowledgeable members can help.


The two most important Wagner roles for baritone - Hans Sachs in _Die Meistersinger_ and Wotan in _Die Walkure_ - are generally thought of as bass-baritone parts. The distinction is not of much use; both roles are long and require, ideally, wide-ranging and powerful voices. The term "bass-baritone" didn't exist in Wagner's day and he simply called most of his low-voice parts "bass." Basically, you sing them if you can hit the notes, make yourself heard, and last all evening to deliver a strong final scene. Offhand, I can't think of any more demanding baritone roles, but partly for that reason you don't have to "nail," or even sing, them in order to be considered top-fight.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Bellinilover said:


> As far as the Verdi baritone repertoire is concerned, Simon Boccanegra is generally considered to be the apex.


Not a very frequently performed opera though, if I'm not mistaken? At least it didn't used to be?


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

graziesignore said:


> Not a very frequently performed opera though, if I'm not mistaken? At least it didn't used to be?


That would have been true, say, in the 1950's, but in the last few decades it has become much more common if not exactly a household name.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Rigoletto, bar none.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

graziesignore said:


> Not a very frequently performed opera though, if I'm not mistaken? At least it didn't used to be?


It's being performed more often now. Possibly since Domingo did it and brought it publicity.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

sospiro said:


> It's being performed more often now. Possibly since Domingo did it and brought it publicity.


Ironic. Where's Gobbi when we need him?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Ironic. Where's Gobbi when we need him?


Indeed. (Or any other real baritone come to that).


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Why don't baritones get any respect or acclaim? Why does a fake baritone get more attention than a real one???

WHY IS IT ALWAYS THE EFFING TENOR??? (and don't even get me started on the Soprano Cult)

Take the baritone out of any opera (at least, Italian opera), and you wouldn't have a plot!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

graziesignore said:


> Why don't baritones get any respect or acclaim? Why does a fake baritone get more attention than a real one???


I know!!!! But people still go to see him (bums on seats) and it's all about the £$€s



graziesignore said:


> WHY IS IT ALWAYS THE EFFING TENOR??? (and don't even get me started on the Soprano Cult)


Agree 100%! I get so fed up with the ten/sop worship. And pity the poor bass who gets paid less than any of them.



graziesignore said:


> Take the baritone out of any opera (at least, Italian opera), and you wouldn't have a plot!


Precisely!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

sospiro said:


> It's being performed more often now. Possibly since Domingo did it and brought it publicity.


For a Verdi opera it is not often performed. For an opera overall it has a performance rate similar to most of Wagner´s operas or other operas which are often performed but not exactly warhorses.
Simon Boccanegra is surely an opera for darker male voices. One bass, bass-baritone and the title role is baritone and they are all rather big roles. All the dark male voices make the tenor sound like a boy. Except for a servant girl with one line there is only one female role Amelia who is on stage for the most of the opera and makes a nice contrast to the darker male voices who gives the opera balance.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> Why don't baritones get any respect or acclaim? Why does a fake baritone get more attention than a real one???
> 
> WHY IS IT ALWAYS THE EFFING TENOR??? (and don't even get me started on the Soprano Cult)
> 
> Take the baritone out of any opera (at least, Italian opera), and you wouldn't have a plot!


It is not that strange that the biggest roles get the most attention.
When the baritone is the leading role it is when it is an older man as in Simon Boccanegra or Rigoletto.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Sloe said:


> It is not that strange that the biggest roles get the most attention.


But sometimes the biggest roles don't get the most attention. The biggest _names_ do because they sell the tickets/CDs/DVDs.

Good example was the DVD of the Salzburg Festival _Ariadne auf Naxos_ and the only singer on the cover was Kaufmann. I thought that was odd because the role of Bacchus is secondary to the roles of Ariadne and Zerbinetta, but the face of Kaufmann guarantees sales. They must have had a re-think as Sony did eventually change the cover.



Sloe said:


> When the baritone is the leading role it is when it is an older man as in Simon Boccanegra or Rigoletto.


In Ambroise Thomas' _Hamlet_, he isn't an older man.


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