# Mahler: where should an Ignoramus start?



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Having admitted that I know nothing of Mahler, I'm wondering which of his works you would recommend to start with. Or it would be nice if you'd say what your favourite piece is and why, so I could study the menu before making my order.

I have two excuses for my lamentable ignorance:
a) I have been besotted with folk music for most of my life (still am) but have taken up the violin & classical music in my Third Age.
b) As a poster observed on the current Mahler thread, as late as the 1960s even classical music buffs didn't really know Mahler. The 1960s & 1970s were my hey-day.

Please do post something, Mahler-lovers, or I'll conclude that Mr Mahler is not worth knowing. 

Very grateful for any replies. Have a nice day.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

You will find that Mahler, more than most composers, tends to divide his "fans".

*Das Lied von der Erde*
A mix between symphony and song cycle, and for me the best piece of music of all time.

*Symphonies*
Personal favourites: 4, then 9, then 6, then 2. But except 8 I love them all. Others will say that the 8th is the best and that the 4th is not worthwhile.

*Song cycles*
The three major ones for orchestra are among the best ever composed. My personal favourite is Kindertotenlieder, but you might want to start with Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, then move on to the Rueckert Lieder.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> You will find that Mahler, more than most composers, tends to divide his "fans".
> 
> *Das Lied von der Erde*
> A mix between symphony and song cycle, and for me the best piece of music of all time.
> ...


This is good but I think the 1st Symphony would be best for a beginner----and which muppett could have made that ridiculous crack about the 4th ! I think Ingenue would like it.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Start with the 2nd "Resurrection" Symphony or with the 5th. They grab you from the very beginning.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

I think the _adagietto_ of the 5th is often one's first exposure to Mahler's music. It is breathtaking in its own right.

Generally speaking, for the symphonies I think that it is preferable to start with the purely orchestral works. I would actually recommend the 1st, a work of great expressiveness, intimacy but power too, I feel.

I think there are others here, however, far more qualified than I am to guide you on this.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Allow an avowed ignoramus to help you!

I began with Mahler's Fifth in earnest, accompanied by Mahlerian's blog posts. I grew to really like the fifth, the more I listen to it, but you know what? I think I might already prefer _Das Lied von der Erde_. It's less cryptic, sounds more traditional to me, and it might be easier to help you get into him, as they say...


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I've tried starting from the begining with the 1st. While I've had all the Mahler symphonies in my collection for some, the 1st is the only one I've listened to in earnest. It has its awsome moments, but I think I'm put off a little by the bar room music in one of its movements. So maybe the 1st is not the best way to start. It hasn't discouraged me from the rest of the works or further listens though. I just need to set aside time when I will be attentive and not fall asleep.

The 2nd is next on my agenda. In the US, we have a long holiday weekend coming up. Maybe I'll find the time then.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

There is no correct answer. His works are so different from each other that one man's meat is another man's poison. Just pick a work at random, listen to it, and see if any of it gets to you (there is wide variation within given works also). Then try another. And another. I would not give up until I had sampled at least four.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I second AR's recommendations for *Das Lied von der Erde*! Or if You would like something slightly less emotionally charged *Kindertotenlieder*, if You insist on a Symphony, I maybe agree with Mr Moody about starting from the f*irst* even if perhaps the *fifth* might be the most accessible, especially if You have an Online Service like Spotify or like to use Youtube! (the Tube is littered with Mahler clips!)

As for recordings, I can't help myself recommending Kathleen Ferrier in Both DLvdE and Kindertotenlieder (On Decca And EMI, She recorded the latter twice), a second DLvdE recomendation is Klemperer's recording with Christa Ludwig and Fritz Wunderlich on EMI, slightly more relaxed but sill emotionally tearing. An alternative Kindertotenlieder is Annsofie von Otter with Boulez on DG!
As for the Symphonies; Horenstein (First on Unicorn) or Barbirolli (Fifth on EMI) would be my choices, but they might be slightly idiosyncratic for some, Bruno Walter (Sony) for either might be a safer bet.

/ptr


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

I started with the sixth, personally, though I think the first is a better place to start. However, if you start with the symphonies, as I have, you may find yourself neglecting the lieder later on.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Kieran said:


> I began with Mahler's Fifth in earnest, accompanied by Mahlerian's blog posts.


Thanks for the heads-up. I wasn't aware of those.

I got into Mahler with David Hurwitz's The Mahler Symphonies, An Owner's Manual. This guy loves Mahler, and he gives a blow-by-blow description of what themes are occurring and what to be paying attention to. He also points out what motifs occur consistently throughout all the symphonies, like the "aspiration theme." There is even a table at the end which lists which symphonies' movements have marches and dances, another for "screams, crashes and thuds," another for the aspiration theme.

There is an interesting video about the 3rd symphony called What The Universe Tells Me, where several people from different disciplines give their thoughts on it. You might find that interesting.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

My gut feeling tells me that good starting off points are symphonies 1 and/or 4 because at 50-odd minutes each they are the shortest and less daunting than some of the others, and also the three shorter song cycles either in orchestral or piano versions (quite often in their orchestral guise all three cycles - 14 songs in all - appear on disc together or separately as fill-ups to one of the symphonies). 

However, Mahler is one of those composers where it might make sense to tackle his symphonies in order as they make up the largest portion of his output by far - it also seems appropriate to listen to Das Lied von der Erde (an unnumbered symphony composed between nos. 8 and 9), no. 9 and no. 10 last of all, as they were probably the nearest it ever came to constituting a loosely autobiographical trilogy taking into account the various dramas of his later life.

Whichever way you go about it, I hope you enjoy yourself - Mahler's total output may 'only' amount to less than 20 hours listening time in total but once you're hooked you never get tired with it.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

4 and 9 were the first symphonies of his I enjoyed, but opinion is so divided on which are the best that you might as well just pick one at random.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

The 1st symphony is where I started, so I suggest you start with the 1st...

As elgars ghost said above, Mahler wrote relatively very few works - if we lump all the early songs together then it's, what, 18 pieces. So it's no hardship to listen to them in chronological order, and you can follow his artistic development clearly.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> The 1st symphony is where I started, so I suggest you start with the 1st...
> 
> As elgars ghost said above, Mahler wrote relatively very few works - if we lump all the early songs together then it's, what, 18 pieces. So it's no hardship to listen to them in chronological order, and you can follow his artistic development clearly.


It's interesting Mahler's 1st begins with a boy in the woods in the morning, listening to birdcalls and military trumpets, and the 9th ends with a grown man dying. (Okay, that's what they sound like to me.) The symphonies in order do make an interesting progression.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Highlights have a bad reputation but I think it makes sense for Mahler. Listen to his adagios there are several good compilations http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Adagio-Adagios/dp/B0038Q3UL4 :









Or just look them up on youtube, particularly the 5th symphony's mvmt 4. Adagietto or No. 7th mvmt 2 for advert nostalgia. If they hook you move on to them in context in the whole symphonies. Worked for me and led to multiple _Das Lieds_.


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## Guest (May 22, 2013)

Mahler is incredible. Good choice to give him a shot. But starting off, I guess a big question is what you already like. If you like the mixture of Orchestra and Chorus, a la Beethoven's 9th symphony, then there is a lot in Mahler that you will likely enjoy.

I have my personal favorites - the 2nd symphony, Das Lied von der Erde, Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen (from the Ruckert Lieder).

But I would start with the 1st symphony. It is very accessible, not just as a Mahler symphony, but for a symphony in general. Mahler's later ones can get very dense - and very lengthy - so I wouldn't start with those until you have first whetted your appetite. 

After the 1st, I think the 4th is one that is very pleasant and easy to appreciate. Then go for either the 2nd or the 5th. After that, you can go for the 3rd, 6th, 8th, and 9th. The Adagio from his unfinished 10th is also very nice, or you can go with the "completed" 10th, finished by others. Das Lied von der Erde I would include round about the time you listen to the 2nd. The Lieder cycles, as well, could be listened to at that point.

The one I am omitting is the 7th. I personally really enjoy the 7th, but it is often listed as the one people like least. I don't understand why, but you might want to hold off on it until you are fairly confident in your appreciation of Mahler.

Don't take the order I recommended as any kind of ranking - I just think, for me, it is the best ranking of them from least complex and most accessible and up.


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## Guest (May 22, 2013)

Start with the first movement of the third. At 25 minutes or so, it's long enough.

I'll share a noobie insight that I had while listening to that movement recently. With a lot of symphonies, essentially all the instruments play together - playing either the same melody, or offering support and/or flourishes to that melody. What I found with Mahler is that, a lot of the time, instruments in ones or twos do their own thing without too much interaction with other instruments. 

I think of it a bit like some ballet with a steady stream of interesting characters coming on stage, doing their thing, then exiting, with only minor interactions with the other characters. 

The result is more of a musical pastiche than a single unified work. Reminds me a bit of some of the Beatles songs. But one consequence of this technique is that Mahler can change moods on a dime. It's interesting. I don't know if there's a formal name for this technique or not.

No sooner did I make this observation than I found that at other times the whole symphony does sometimes come together and play like a traditional symphony.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Personally:
1st - Kubelík
2nd - Tennstedt
3rd - Bernstein
4th - Reiner
6th - Eschenbach
7th - Gielen
10th (Adagio) - Scherchen

Das Lied, the 5th and the 8th do not suit me for whatever reason, and with the 9th I haven't heard that many recordings (at least, not as many as with the others (but I do like it a lot)) and the same goes for the lieder at this point.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Wow - so glad I started this thread. Lots of good advice & different views. What a great menu to study before beginning - as I certainly shall. (I'm a person who loves ordered lists for learning.) There are good ideas too about listening to talks to put his oeuvre into context & about relating his music to his life story. Also, Mahlerian's Blog. Thanks for all these posts & any still to come.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

crudblud's post just up above prompts me to suggest, Ingenue, that if you ask for recommendations on specific recordings you'll need to be prepared for a huge flood of suggestions, many of them contradictory.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

If you start with the 1st... try it with the volume turned down, so you have to pay attention to the quieter parts. Makes the louder parts more intense, and the overall effect is sort of like listening to Bruckner. Kubelik is good for this approach, Walter not so much.

The 4th is fairly easy to handle, and if you get the Abravanel/Utah SO on Vanguard you benefit (highly) from hearing a young Darvath in the finale. Be sure *not* to translate from the German though; those are startlingly dumb lyrics.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

DrMike said:


> I have my personal favorites - Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen (from the Ruckert Lieder).


Oh, yeah! I first discovered that piece from an elderly friend who was so impressed with that piece that he listened to it daily for a week. A couple days after that, he passed away. It's one of those special pieces that is lovely on its own, but it also brings to me a cherished memory.


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## Guest (May 22, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> Oh, yeah! I first discovered that piece from an elderly friend who was so impressed with that piece that he listened to it daily for a week. A couple days after that, he passed away. It's one of those special pieces that is lovely on its own, but it also brings to me a cherished memory.


Definitely one of his most poignant pieces. I like Christa Ludwig's recording of it, as well as Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau's - both on EMI.


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## Guest (May 22, 2013)

Hilltroll72 said:


> If you start with the 1st... try it with the volume turned down, so you have to pay attention to the quieter parts. Makes the louder parts more intense, and the overall effect is sort of like listening to Bruckner. Kubelik is good for this approach, Walter not so much.
> 
> The 4th is fairly easy to handle, and if you get the Abravanel/Utah SO on Vanguard you benefit (highly) from hearing a young Darvath in the finale. Be sure *not* to translate from the German though; those are startlingly dumb lyrics.


I agree that Kubelik is great for the 1st - I prefer his live recording on Audite. But Bernstein's DG recording is also a great one.

For the 4th, I actually am quite impressed with Michael Tilson Thomas.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Ingenue said:


> Wow - so glad I started this thread. Lots of good advice & different views. What a great menu to study before beginning - as I certainly shall. (I'm a person who loves ordered lists for learning.) There are good ideas too about listening to talks to put his oeuvre into context & about relating his music to his life story. Also, Mahlerian's Blog. Thanks for all these posts & any still to come.


I'd recommend these:

Lieder eines fahenden Gesellen
Ruckert-Lieder
Blumenstuck (Second movement from 3rd Symphony)
Adagietto (4th movement from 5th Symphony)

Knowing what I do about your tastes, you don't lean towards "heavy" music, so all of the above are perfectly in Mahler's style without some of its "heavier" aspects.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Knowing what I do about your tastes, you don't lean towards "heavy" music, so all of the above are perfectly in Mahler's style without some of its "heavier" aspects.


You are so right! I do need a gentle introduction. Thanks, Mahlerian!


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## FLighT (Mar 7, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> The 1st symphony is where I started, so I suggest you start with the 1st...
> 
> As elgars ghost said above, Mahler wrote relatively very few works - if we lump all the early songs together then it's, what, 18 pieces. So it's no hardship to listen to them in chronological order, and you can follow his artistic development clearly.


That's my feeling as well. For a first experience I would do the symphonies in order and spend some time looking into "best" and "recommended" performances. His symphonic output breaks down into groups: 1 to 4, 5 to 7, and 8 to 10 (including Das Lied). #8 always struck me as an odd man out and is my least favorite.

My take has always been that in addition to being influenced by his life and personal circumstances as he grew older, there seems to be a natural growth, or progression in moving through the symphonies in order to start your initial experience of his music. You may notice looks forward and backwards in the music at times as you work your way through that give the entire a satisfying sense of unity. A simple example: a retiring horn triplet near the close of the 1st movement of #4 becomes the attention grabbing proclamation that opens #5.

Yes, I'm a fan boy.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

And nobody has mentioned _Des Knaben Wunderhorn_? It's not exactly a song cycle - the songs range from raucously funny (_Lob des hohen Verstandes_) to wonderfully charming (_Rheinlegendchen_) to ironic (_Des Antonius von Padua Fischpredigt_) to hair-raisingly frightening (_Der Tamboursg'sell_) - and I've left out at least half of my favourites. If you get to know the melodies of this sort-of song cycle you'll be acquainted with themes that you will hear in the first four symphonies.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

This may be an unconventional choice but I think you should listen to Mahler's _Symphony No. 7_. I do like Mahler's music, although I've never claimed to be a huge fan, but there's something _different_ about his 7th. Many complain about the finale being too 'joyous' but I think this is musical irony at it's best (think of the type of feeling in the last movement of Shostakovich's _Symphony No. 5_). There is something incredible distraught and downright eerie about this particular symphony. The _Scherzo_ reminds of a person on horseback with a latern riding through a haunted graveyard with some caskets that have been dug up and the skeletons are just lying around. Such a morbid movement and the rest of the symphony has a similar type of feeling throughout. You get the feeling that Mahler's mind was slipping a bit during writing this symphony.

Two recommended performances:










Don't you just love the Klimt artwork on this Abbado cover?


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

What wonderful artwork on the covers!


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

Start with a genuine desire to like his music.

I started with the 2nd symphony because we played it in our youth orchestra.
It didn't take me long to get it. 23 years later it is still my favourite work.
I rushed to look up his other works and I'd still maintain that 2 - 6 are his most accessible works. 
7-9 are definitely harder to penetrate.


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## julianoq (Jan 29, 2013)

The 2nd symphony (specially the powerful 1st movement) hooked me up on classical music as a whole, not only on Mahler. But keep in mind that I was a heavy metal fan for 15 years before that, so may not work for everyone!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I just listened to his First Symphony and ... ta da! I *liked* it!! 

Yippee!


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Ingenue said:


> I just listened to his First Symphony and ... ta da! I *liked* it!!
> 
> Yippee!


It goes downhill from there imo.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Ingenue said:


> I just listened to his First Symphony and ... ta da! I *liked* it!!
> 
> Yippee!


From here I suggest keeping it instrumental, no. 7 is my favourite and was the second one I ever heard. Neo Romanza wrote an excellent post earlier.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Ingenue said:


> I just listened to his First Symphony and ... ta da! I *liked* it!!
> 
> Yippee!


Try the four _Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen_ now - Mahler made significant use of some of them in the 1st symphony.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I've just listened to Mahler's Second Symphony - and found it sublime & beautiful. Taggart thinks the same. I didn't take in till near the end that it was called 'Resurrection' & dealt with the theme of the afterlife. How well the music suits the theme.

My violin teacher is a baroque specialist & has told me he doesn't like Mahler. He hates the huge 'industrial-size' orchestras & thinks it is 'egotistical & self-indulgent' to write such long works about one's own thoughts & explorations. Normally I am a slavish follower of Fiddle Guru's opinions, but not here. Mahler's questions are not narrowly self-centred but the vital existential questions faced by every human being. 

Maybe it's an age thing. When I was at uni, I preferred Keats to Wordsworth & thought his exploration of his childhood & his psyche was boring & self-centred; then, in middle age, teaching the Romantic Poets, I discovered that my tastes had changed. I still loved the lush sensuous Keats, but I found him a bit immature.

Whatever, when it comes to Mahler's Second Symphony, Taggart & I consider ourselves *blown away*!


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## Adeodatus100 (May 27, 2013)

If you hadn't got there before me, I'd have suggested, like others, the 1st - and, like others, Kubelik's recording. It's awesome, and fun, and a bit sexy, and exhilarating. In that order. If you're not careful, you might forget to breathe in the last few bars.

After the 1st and 2nd, I'd suggest either the 4th, which is comparatively light, or the 9th for its profound emotional power. You might need a hanky in the last movement.


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

I would suggest after the 2nd.......... Go back and listen again.


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

You really can't go wrong with anything by Mahler. He's the only composer with whom I've been able to both listen to and enjoy every single one of his works. The only bits I'm not a huge fan of are his 4th symphony and some of his earlier songs, such as a couple from Das Knaben Wunderhorn and Das Klagende Lied. The rest is pure gold! I'd say just keep listening to his symphonies in order, and then move on to his song cycles.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

Just listen to today's soundtrack composers and you will hear TONS of Mahler in them. Especially if you pick apart John Williams scores. Sure, other composers are stolen from too but Mahler made such use of the colours and orchestration that I understand totally why he is borrowed from.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I would have recommended the 1st and the 2nd symphony for a Mahler neophyte, but seems that you already went there, so... congratulations! I'm glad you like them! One thing to remember with Mahler is that you can't just take the silly/ironic sections or the sublime/violent sections, they go together to form the whole.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

Do I get to recommend that you start with Kenneth Slowik's chamber reductions with the Smithsonian Chamber Players or will I get yelled at a lot 

* Das Lied von der Erde (The Song of the Earth) arranged by Schönberg & Riehn - vocals by John Elwes and Russel Braun. 
* Symphony No. 4 in G major arranged by Stein - vocals by Christine Brandes
* Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen (Songs of a Wayfarer) arranged by Schönberg - vocals by Susan Platts

Seriously, I have always liked Mahler, who is a master orchestrator, but I find these reductions to be somehow transcendent. I am (probably) a huge outlier in this recommendation, so feel free to dismiss it.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Mitchell said:


> Do I get to recommend that you start with Kenneth Slowik's chamber reductions with the Smithsonian Chamber Players or will I get yelled at a lot


Not by me! Thanks, Mitchell.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I'm not too fond of the first symphony myself and recommend the second symphony to begin with. The first symphony, exciting as it may be, feels to me like waiting for something that never really happens. It's like the entire symphony is a build up, but without conclusion.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

For a novice with a basic classical music appreciation, the 1st and the 5th are the most accessible.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

18 very long pieces!  I have a different idea: start with Bruckner's 7th and then move to Mahler's 1st. Mahler referred to Bruckner as his 'forerunner'. And, Bruckner 7 is so very beautiful. Wherever you start you'll find your way around just fine. I wish I were just embarking on my first experiences with Mahler!



Nereffid said:


> As elgars ghost said above, Mahler wrote relatively very few works - if we lump all the early songs together then it's, what, 18 pieces.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

DeepR said:


> I'm not too fond of the first symphony myself and recommend the second symphony to begin with. The first symphony, exciting as it may be, feels to me like waiting for something that never really happens. It's like the entire symphony is a build up, but without conclusion.


Ah, I liked the first symphony - was bowled over by the second - and have heard bits of the third after watching the documentary recommended by Manxfeeder above; as far as that went, I didn't like the 'marching band' much, but the 'wave-oscillation' at the start, and the operatic 'O man, what does deep midnight tell us?' both raised the hairs at the back of my neck. I'll come back to the third later. I also sampled Das Lied von der Erde, recommended by moody & by ptr, and found it hauntingly beautiful.

I suppose it's the fourth next. I'll have a bash at it this week.

Thanks for all the help, TC compadres. Will let you know how I get on.


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Don't do it! Stop now! It's TOO expensive! 

Glad you're digging 'Ole Gustav. He is one of the greatest to these ears. I own way too many Mahler recordings - its a sickness and you may need therapy to get it under control.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

You should start with the symphonies and the songs :B


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

chalkpie said:


> Don't do it! Stop now! It's TOO expensive!
> 
> Glad you're digging 'Ole Gustav. He is one of the greatest to these ears. I own way too many Mahler recordings - its a sickness and you may need therapy to get it under control.


Anybody who goes to a therapist needs their head examining. 

So if Ingenue goes, I'll know she really *is* batty!


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Yeah, Mahler really can become an addiction. I seriously started listening to his music last year, and I haven't been able to stop. I highly recommend taking brief Mahler "breaks" once in a while...listen to something else, Bach or Mozart maybe! But once you're hooked to Mahler, you'll always come back.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

Celloman said:


> Yeah, Mahler really can become an addiction. I seriously started listening to his music last year, and I haven't been able to stop. I highly recommend taking brief Mahler "breaks" once in a while...listen to something else, Bach or Mozart maybe! But once you're hooked to Mahler, you'll always come back.


Agree with the addiction statement. I think it's because there are so many wonderful interpretations of the symphonies. Some conductor's versions are so different that it's like discovering a new Mahler symphony.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I've just listened to the Fourth Symphony and ... um ... it was *okay*. There were some nice tender moments, and I liked it when the singer came in, but then it became a bit dissonant for me, and over all, I found the symphony rather - well - mundane. But I'm glad to have had the experience. Onward & upward!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Taggart said:


> Anybody who goes to a therapist needs their head examining.
> 
> So if Ingenue goes, I'll know she really *is* batty!


You mean you have doubts ?


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Ingenue said:


> I've just listened to the Fourth Symphony and ... um ... it was *okay*. There were some nice tender moments, and I liked it when the singer came in, but then it became a bit dissonant for me, and over all, I found the symphony rather - well - mundane. But I'm glad to have had the experience. Onward & upward!


Don't give up on the Fourth Ing., it takes further listening to reveal it self! Go on to the fifth, it is much easier to understand, but please return to the fourth as it is truly grand! 

/ptr


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Ingenue said:


> I've just listened to the Fourth Symphony and ... um ... it was *okay*. There were some nice tender moments, and I liked it when the singer came in, but then it became a bit dissonant for me, and over all, I found the symphony rather - well - mundane. But I'm glad to have had the experience. Onward & upward!


I'm sorry you didn't like it. The best thing to do when music doesn't do anything for you is to put it aside and come back to it later. If you enjoyed the earlier works, I think you could come to love the 4th as well. I love everything by Mahler, though, so I'm biased.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I managed to listen to the Fifth today, in two halves. I liked it. Especially the dramatic opening, and the expansive, exploratory melodies thereafter; fascinating to see a man clacking two wooden flaps together!  There were bits I didn't like, however - marching, cheery, bracing stuff. The main tune right before the ending was a bit breezy for me too, though the actual finale was impressive. 

And the Adagietto (as I discovered later - at the time I only noticed a startlingly lovely violin-y tune) was out of this world. :angel:


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

Anyone else that loves the eighth? It seems rarely mentioned.. I'd rush of and buy tickets for a live performance in a second if one was performed close by.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Glad to hear that. Hoping I get some out of Mahler Symphony 5 as I didn't care much for 2-4.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Glad to hear that. Hoping I get some out of Mahler Symphony 5 as I didn't care much for 2-4.


I find it really interesting what does or does not resonate with people. 2-4 is the highpoint of the cycle for me. Luckily there is enough Mahler to go around, a little something to tickle every taste bud.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2013)

My favorites are all over the place. I like 1, 2, 6, 9, and the 10th Adagio and Das Lied von der Erde. I don't dislike the others, I just don't listen to them as much. 4 always surprises me. I will get to thinking I don't like it that much, then listen to it, and it surprises me! 8 took a lot of work with me. It wasn't until I found a recording that really spoke to me - the Nagano recording on Harmonia Mundi. Solti's much-talked about recording did nothing for me.


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

Cheyenne said:


> Anyone else that loves the eighth? It seems rarely mentioned.. I'd rush of and buy tickets for a live performance in a second if one was performed close by.


It's one of my favorites of his, after the 2nd and 9th. It doesn't seem to get much love on this forum though, I remember a poll a while back and it was almost unanimously everyone's least favorite of Mahler's, what a pity!


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Stargazer said:


> It's one of my favorites of his, after the 2nd and 9th. It doesn't seem to get much love on this forum though, I remember a poll a while back and it was almost unanimously everyone's least favorite of Mahler's, what a pity!


I think the 8th is one of the better ones there, I really like it, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone new to Mahler.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

Xaltotun said:


> I think the 8th is one of the better ones there, I really like it, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone new to Mahler.


I'll bet it needs to seen live to be really appreciated.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I just listened to the Sixth Symphony. I was glad to, because its fame had preceded it. A Welsh music-loving RE teacher of mine who died tragically young (he was only 29) used it in a sixth-form discussion lesson as an illustration of someone yearning but finally failing to have faith - his interpretation, presumably from the hammer-blow 'nihilistic' (Wiki-quote) ending.

I did like the emphatic opening and close; also much of the ?third movement, the quieter wistful bits with harps and bells; but oh why does Mahler crash about so, with brass & military riffs and travelling see-saw links between tunes (this novice asks intrepidly  )?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Ingenue said:


> I did like the emphatic opening and close; also much of the ?third movement, the quieter wistful bits with harps and bells; but oh why does Mahler crash about so, with brass & military riffs and travelling see-saw links between tunes (this novice asks intrepidly  )?


Because they're thematically significant?

The quiet interlinking material is all derived from the same few motifs as the rest of it. Practically every melodic figure can be traced back to its respective movement's exposition. So is the militaristic music.

In terms of form, the Sixth is perfect in my opinion. Not a single note more than needed.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Thank you for answering my unrhetorical question, Mahlerian. I am listening to Mahler to learn, and this is a first-through listen. When I go back to the sixth, I can give it a more informed listen next time.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Ingenue said:


> Thank you for answering my unrhetorical question, Mahlerian. I am listening to Mahler to learn, and this is a first-through listen. When I go back to the sixth, I can give it a more informed listen next time.


No problem. It's hard to answer these sorts of questions, though. I could give a technical explanation of why this or that bit is there, but if you can't hear it, then knowing that there's something there to hear does little good....


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Just keep on listening, Ingenue, Mahler has been one of my four absolute favourites for a couple of years now and I'm still discovering new things with each listen, even to the same recording.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

Agreed with Crudblud's "just keep on listening" suggestion.

I am convinced that an entire lifetime could be dedicated to understanding Mahler's few handfulls of compositions (15, 20, depending on how you count). 

Currently I am under the the spell of his Third, Rattle conducting.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I think Mahler is the type of composer you have to listen to multiple times before you really start to enjoy what he has to say. I tried listening to his 5th symphony for years and I still didn't get him at all. It was only in the last couple years that I really started to "catch on." To someone in the early stages of Mahler listening, I'd tell them to just give it some time. Mahler will grow on you if you keep giving him the chance...one day it'll hit you all of a sudden, and you'll say, "Oh, that's what he meant!"


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

Ingenue said:


> Thank you for answering my unrhetorical question, Mahlerian. I am listening to Mahler to learn, and this is a first-through listen. When I go back to the sixth, I can give it a more informed listen next time.


Since you like the 6th, eventually you will want to explore the 2 different ways the symphony is structured and the history behind it. 
BTW, in your Mahler journey are you listening to a single cycle or different conductors?


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## Clump (Sep 5, 2012)

Does anyone actually think Andante - Scherzo sounds better, or does everyone who advocates it just think it's probably more accurate?


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

davinci said:


> Since you like the 6th, eventually you will want to explore the 2 different ways the symphony is structured and the history behind it.
> BTW, in your Mahler journey are you listening to a single cycle or different conductors?


To whatever I can find on YouTube, I'm afraid!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Clump said:


> Does anyone actually think Andante - Scherzo sounds better, or does everyone who advocates it just think it's probably more accurate?


Er.... pass! Someone else answer that, p-l-e-a-s-e!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Ingenue said:


> To whatever I can find on YouTube, I'm afraid!


Bernstein VPO performances on YouTube and on DVD are the best.


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## nightscape (Jun 22, 2013)

I would personally suggest starting with his 5th since I believe it's the most accessible for a beginner. The 2nd is my favorite; each movement has a very distinct and memorable sound and character, and the finale is one of the most transcendent musical experiences I'm likely to have.

The 6th is very good, as well as his 9th. The 8th doesn't grab me as much, although I know it's extremely popular.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

I don't really understand all the problems people have with the 8th. Certain performances, such as Abbado's with the Berlin Philharmonic on DG, actually bring tears to my eyes it's so emotionally overwhelming. I had more difficulty gaining an appreciation for the 9th way back when I was getting to know these symphonies. The 8th amazed me from the get go.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

Clump said:


> Does anyone actually think Andante - Scherzo sounds better, or does everyone who advocates it just think it's probably more accurate?


I very much prefer Scherzo as 2nd movement. I find Andante into Finale (Allegro) gives more pause and better emphasis on the Finale.
Although, I enjoy Abbado's version of Andante-Scherzo-Finale.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Symphonies 1 and 4 are good starting points: they aren't as heavy as his others.
His piano quartet movement in a minor is a very lovely work, and very accessible


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I have just listened to the Seventh. In general - nice. 

I loved the opening movement - beautiful - also the pensive opening of the second; I was a bit - um - bored by the third movement; the fourth was lovely and lyrical; and the fifth didn't really grab me - the ironic references mentioned by Wiki passed me by & I found it a bit pom-pom-pom!

Apologies for the technical critic-speak! 

Excelsior...


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

Clump said:


> Does anyone actually think Andante - Scherzo sounds better, or does everyone who advocates it just think it's probably more accurate?


I always put the Andante 2nd. I find that the Scherzo inhabits a world too similar to the 1st mvt to come straight after it.
We performed it this way at college too - as our conductor thought it was the better way. So I suppose that has heavily influenced my perception.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Ingenue said:


> I have just listened to the Seventh. In general - nice.
> 
> I loved the opening movement - beautiful - also the pensive opening of the second; I was a bit - um - bored by the third movement; the fourth was lovely and lyrical; and the fifth didn't really grab me - the ironic references mentioned by Wiki passed me by & I found it a bit pom-pom-pom!
> 
> ...


I agree with pretty much everything you say here (I too am left somewhat cold by the finale) though I think the scherzo is brilliant. I'm glad you loved the first movement, I think it might be my favourite Mahler movement at the moment.


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## motoboy (May 19, 2008)

Since you liked the 1st, I would suggest watching Michael Tilson Thomas' "Keeping Score, a Mahler Journey" video. He takes you movement by movement through the 1st with tons of good interesting info and then through bits of Mahler's later works. I think it can be viewed free on the San Frncisco Symphony's web page along with the other ones; Copland, Shosty and others.

http://www.sfsymphony.org/Watch-Listen-Learn/TV-Broadcasts


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

:tiphat: Thanks, motoboy - Taggart & I love documentaries about musicians/composers/pieces of music. Will definitely check it out.


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## schuberkovich (Apr 7, 2013)

I also want to know what all the fuss is about! I am only really familiar with the 1st movement of the Resurrection symphony, but it is my summer holidays goal to listen listen to them all. I'll start with the 2nd, then probably the 9th as it seems to have one of the most incredible openings of any symphony (from what I can tell).


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

schuberkovich said:


> I also want to know what all the fuss is about! I am only really familiar with the 1st movement of the Resurrection symphony, but it is my summer holidays goal to listen listen to them all. I'll start with the 2nd, then probably the 9th as it seems to have one of the most incredible openings of any symphony (from what I can tell).


Here's my advice. Clear up an evening for yourself, get a drink, sit down in your armchair, and listen to the rest of the Resurrection symphony without interruption. You will understand what all the fuss is about by the end, I promise.


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## schuberkovich (Apr 7, 2013)

Air said:


> Here's my advice. Clear up an evening for yourself, get a drink, sit down in your armchair, and listen to the rest of the Resurrection symphony without interruption. You will understand what all the fuss is about by the end, I promise.


Is it worth following the text properly? I know that it's a crucial part of the symphony, but I feel like I would stop focusing on the music and more on the words...


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

I do not believe this is necessary.

Ted Libby gives a little talk on it for NPR, which can be found here:

http://www.npr.org/programs/pt/pt50.html


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

schuberkovich said:


> Is it worth following the text properly? I know that it's a crucial part of the symphony, but I feel like I would stop focusing on the music and more on the words...


Besides the fourth movement and the last ten minutes of the fifth movement, there isn't enough singing in the symphony to warrant following the text. It isn't a dramatic work like one of Wagner's operas. The symphony is titled "Resurrection", and the music itself is very reflective of the title. You will "feel" the Resurrection just by listening to it. That's what I love about Mahler - his music brings out your emotions rather than forces emotions onto you. He sets the mood (this is especially true in the parts of the fifth movement I like to call "The Window", "The Calling", and "The Ascension"), but you will be able to paint your own scene from the setting (or music) he gives you. I have never read the text while listening to the Resurrection and I believe I am able to enjoy the work more that way.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

schuberkovich said:


> Is it worth following the text properly? I know that it's a crucial part of the symphony, but I feel like I would stop focusing on the music and more on the words...


Not at all necessary, and this is even more true of the 8th Symphony.


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## AlexD (Nov 6, 2011)

I started with the first and it put me off. I don't know why, but it isn't one I enjoy. 

I then caught Rattle's second with the CSBO on the radio and been much more into Mahler than before. Highlights for me are the second, eighth and ninth symphonies.


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## schuberkovich (Apr 7, 2013)

So I got a chance to listen to the whole of the Resurrection Symphony. I dug out one of my dad's recordings, already mentioned here: Simon Rattle and the CBSO






(what a striking painting!).

I thought that the first movement was great, and the structure was really interesting (it was the same material cycled over and over, but tweaked each time). I also enjoyed the 2nd and 3rd movements. I could also hear where Shostakovich drew some inspiration for his 5th symphony allegretto in the 3rd movement. From then on though I felt like I wasn't really connecting to the music - I could appreciate some of what was happening from a distance, but it didn't fill me with joy.

Following on from the discussion about developing themes, I often thought that Mahler could have just left them as they were. For example, the wonderful major theme which first appears in the violins is only heard in its full un-developed (best) version once again I think, played more quickly by a flute. Again in the second movement, the opening theme felt too developed - it could have simply been repeated.

However, I often have lukewarm first impressions about pieces I grow to love, so I'll give the symphony another try in a couple of days.

On another note, I loved Mahler's orchestration throughout though. I have never heard someone use brass and harp so effectively, as well as cor anglais (I think I heard?) and solo violin.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

schuberkovich said:


> On another note, I loved Mahler's orchestration throughout though. I have never heard someone use brass and harp so effectively, as well as cor anglais (I think I heard?) and solo violin.


I don't know anyone, from any era, who uses the bass register of the harp so much as Mahler. It's an ear-opener to hear what an orchestra can really do.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> I don't know anyone, from any era, who uses the bass register of the harp so much as Mahler. It's an ear-opener to hear what an orchestra can really do.


True. The guy who started this off was Berlioz (another conductor) but he found problems with a) availability of good instruments and b) good harpists.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

I suggest Sir Simon Rattle Mahler avoidance. A good starting point for M2 is the studio Klemperer (EMI GROC ART). Klemperer has a tendency to slow things down (like Walter and Giulini), but this M2 moves along nicely.

Re cycles, good starting points are Kubelik (DG) and Bertini (EMI), emphasizing the lyrical. Detailing, smelling roses along the way, yet moving at a good pace. Singles in the same company can include Horenstein for M3 and M4.

Once one gets the gist and the hotspots of the works, they may like to partake of more raucous performances, such as Muti, Solti (Decca, '84) M1s, Scherchen, Suitner, Bernstein (Sony) M2s, Bernstein (Sony) M3, Harding M4, Shipway, Bernstein (DG) M5s, Barbirolli (EMI), Boulez (DG) M6s, Solti (Decca '71), Abbado (DG, '01) M7s, Bernstein (Sony) M9.

Hope this can help some. Enjoy! :tiphat:


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Football is famously 'a game of two halves', and so is Mahler's 8th. Very unequal halves (for me) in every sense.

I love 'yer actual' Veni Creator Spiritus so I began with high expectations. But I found the singing in Part 1 to be dreary, dissonant, and too portentous. The little voice in my skull kept muttering: 'What are they*on* about?'

Then, to my delighted surprise, Part 2, the Faust poem, began. The opening - pizz on cellos & violins, plus clarinet - was thoughtful & pleasing. Then the bowed strings - beautiful - soon joined by poignant bassoons and flutes. The instrumental parts generally were fabulous - loved the harp & the tinkling ?glockenspiel later. Plus, to my untutored ear, the singing was so much more tuneful. I adored the rhythmic whispered male chanting, and the tenor's song was absolutely lovely, so melodic and wistful. The ending 'levelled off' a bit for me, but it was still very nice

The posters on the recently-resurrected thread, 'Mahler makes life worth living but I can't stand the 8th', put it much better than I can, of course...


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

The posters on the 2012 thread started by Mindy, 'Mahler makes life worth living but I can't stand the 8th', have things to say that so chimed in with my tastes, along with some useful instruction.

Mindy calls Part 1 'choral cacophony', and yes, I did find it untuneful, and when things sound dissonant to me, they're on the uneasy rim of 'tedious'. I slightly took issue with Orpheus (post 15) on this. He says, 'I can only presume he wanted to beat the audience so hard and repeatedly over the head at the outset with the theme (? can't read my own notes) of Divine Grace, expressed in a comfortingly familiar style of church worship...' 
Gosh, Orpheus, what church are you referring to? I've been familiar with church music from childhood & found nothing at all - rien, zilch - 'comfortingly familiar' about the Mahler! Au contraire - it made me feel a little dyspeptic.  (But 'horses for courses'...)

The rest of Orpheus's post (no. 15) brilliantly articulated what I felt about Part II. 'It has nice development from its early enigmatic introverted brooding... (the whole work is) like 2 completely separate works inharmoniously yoked together by sheer force of will...' - I haven't time to quote more, but thank you, Orpheus! :tiphat:

Post 36, Derghansson, says: 'The first movement is okay but perhaps a little fussy' - exactly the word for me! He says also that the symphony 'is in constant movement towards the blindingly beautiful Chorus Mysticus'. Yes, it is beautiful.

DeepR, post 43, says, 'I haven't heard any other Mahler finale sound that glorious. The sound of the Universe'. The last (minor) sentence could be applied to most of what I've heard of Mahler so far - something so 'planetary' and celestial about the bits that I like!

And as usual, thank you, Mahlerian for your posts above and on Mindy's thread. I do appreciate all your learning, advice and encouragement. :tiphat: You are a credit to the site, sir!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

*Mahler's Ninth Symphony*

In general, I really liked it - particularly the first and last movements which were poignant and beautiful. There were bits I didn't like, which shows that I'm not totally attuned to Mahler's point of view.

I. *Andante Comodo*
I decided that this quiet music was the very _sound_ of _thinking_, distilled. I looked it up afterwards & found in Wiki some stuff about Mahler's irregular heartbeat & 'death in life'. That doesn't jar with what I felt.

II. *... 'a dance, a landler'*
Apparently meant to show a dance distorted into a dance of death. Not quite what I felt. It didn't feel sinister & irritated me with some of the 'pom pom' band-style music that seems to pop up a lot in Mahler & just isn't my cup of tea - pardon the critic-speak.  This movement 'went on' a bit & bored me; it seemed 'inconsequential'.

III. *Rondo Burleske.*
I liked this the least. When the music was 'serious' sounding, I thought it was lovely, but there were some horrid flirtatious/playful/twee eruptions that really annoyed me! Now, I wrote this before I looked at Wiki; I find that the writer of this article says, 'Although the term _burlesque _ means humorous, the actual humour of the movement is small compared to the overall field of manic violence...' Duh! 

IV. *Adagio*
Absolutely gorgeous. Beautiful & wistful. Could be mood music for the bit of the Lord of the Rings when everything seems lost. So quiet, and yet so effective. Ah, let's see what Wiki says - 'symbolically prophesying three kinds of death'. Yeah - could be!

So this is a definite 'like' for Mahler's Ninth.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Listening to the Adagio by Cleveland Orchestra on YouTube. Beautiful!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Thanks for posting it, starthrower. That's my next port of call!


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

Based on your comments about the 9th, I think you really need to go directly to Das Lied von der Erde. The Kubelik recording on the Audite label with Janet Baker singing the soprano part is my favorite.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2013)

Dad Lied is definitely among his best. The live Kubelik recording on Audite is definitely a great one. I also really enjoy the Reined recording, or for a recording with two male voices, Bernstein with I believe Fischer-Dieskau and King.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Boulez's live recording of _Des Knaben Wunderhorn_ is also very fine indeed, available on disc with the Symphony No. 10 adagio as well.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Thank you, Crudblud, for posting this. 
Thanks also to Andolink & Dr Mike. I'm getting there... :cheers:


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

^^^^
I think that may be my first Mahler CD purchase? I've made a few attempts to get into some of his music over the past couple of years, but still haven't picked up a recording. If I had a nice audio/video system, I'd get the Blu-Ray DVD.


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## Bix (Aug 12, 2010)

It has been useful to read all of the above and other Mahler posts. I have to agree with you Ingenue that Mahlerian has been and still is of great value to talk classical - I have valued his guidance for sure.


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## TitanisWalleri (Dec 30, 2012)

My favorite is 2. The first vocal solo makes it for me, and I'm not much of a vocal fan.

I believe that the first movement from Symphony 9 is perhaps the most peaceful piece I have ever heard in my life. I really like how it ends with a VERY soft movement, as opposed to a traditional finale, but Mahler was never one for conventional composition.

Mahler 5 is very approachable, and as already mentioned, the adagietto is one of his most famous pieces. You have to find a recording with Herseth on the trumpet solo. I really like the horn solo in the third movement.

I would probably try Mahler 5 first as it follows the conventional format for a symphony and has more approachable melodies and harmonies thanthe rest of his works.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I started back in 1972 with a Vanguard Two-Fer called "Mahler is Heavy" (ahhh..the 70's)

It had Maurice Abravanel and the Utah Symphony doing the Symphony No 4 (which I think is the easiest intro to Mahler) and the inner movements from Symphony No 7 (also easy).

The other easy Mahler, for me, is No 1.


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## rborganist (Jan 29, 2013)

I agree with those who have suggested starting with Das Liede von der Erde; it is a beautiful piece with contrast among the six songs and it is not quite as gloomy as some Mahler can be. (And for Mahler, it's fairly short). The Second (Resurrection) Symphony is also a good starting point. Wait a bit on the Kindertotenlieder.


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2013)

My best advice on Mahler is to not base your judgment on any one of his works. Even if you don't like a work that so many others do, don't assume you won't like anything else by him. Even though he doesn't have as extensive a repertoire as others, there is still a pretty broad diversity within what he has. Don't like #2? Try #8. Don't like Das Lied von der Erde? Try the 9th. Chances are something is going to speak to you more than the rest.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I just finished listening to the Adagio on CD by Boulez and the Cleveland Orchestra. It's a wonderful piece of music! But I'm not too happy with this DG recording. Sounds very harsh, and almost painful at some points. Reminds me of some of those crappy 80s digital recordings. I'll have to check my library for some different versions.

Maybe this quality is due to the nature of some of the music with its dense and dissonant harmonies? Bu it sounds too hard for my ears. Must be some silkier recordings?


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2013)

I love the 5th symphony, especially Duhamel rendition. The first three movements lead to a beautiful and dramatic yet sensitive Adagietto. Give me chills.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

*Mahler's Tenth Symphony*:

This afternoon I've been sewing flower motifs on a dance dress while listening to bits & pieces of Mahler's Tenth.

I listened to the clip posted by Starthrower, Post number 102 above, the *Adagio* played by the Cleveland Orchestra (*Pierre Boulez*); also to the 1960 BBC third programme with *Deryck Cooke* introducing his version of the tenth with an explanation of his procedure in piecing together what Mahler left unfinished.

I nodded off a bit during some of Cooke's explanations, but oh I *did* like it when he mentioned '*Mahler's characteristic beergarden style'*! So *this* is the pukka arty term for what I've been calling Mahler's *pom-pom-pom. *

Luckily there didn't seem to be too much beergarden - a few pizzicato jaunty bits in the adagio, and some prosaic brisk plod-along stuff in the Scherzo (2nd movement) that reminded me of incidental music to the old British Pathé Newsreels.

But nae real bother. 

I _like_ what I heard. I found it beautiful - lyrical - poignant - shot through with a sense of unease & at times of tragedy. There seemed to be more extended strings-section than in some of the other symphonies, and in places it was achingly sweet, with the concentrated flavour of halva.

I do find that Mahler stirs - not so much the emotions - as a consciousness of what *is* - the state of things - *reality*. I know that his music has been called the music of the universe or of the planets, and with justice. I can hear that.

So this finishes off my first listening to the *symphonies*, and with some reservations I have really relished the experience. I will try out the Lieder before I go back to the symphonies again, as I must give everything a second go. But now I can look back at this thread & start with the things I loved without demur, such as the _Resurrection Symphony_.

:tiphat: Many, many thanks to all you lovely posters, and especially, of course, to *Mahlerian*.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

A lovely post Ingenue. Thank you for sharing your journey with us.


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

Can anyone help me with an appropriate order in which to listen to Mahler's symphonies as a newcomer, and why the particular order chosen is important?


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

LouisMasterMusic said:


> Can anyone help me with an appropriate order in which to listen to Mahler's symphonies as a newcomer, and why the particular order chosen is important?


Honestly, I would just start with Symphony No. 1 and progressed from there. If you want to hear what is probably his "most popular" Symphony before the rest then you can start with number 5.

I first heard Mahler via the 4th movement of his 5th Symphony. I then went to the local music shop (no "online" ways to listen to music in those days) but the only recording they had was Mahler's 6th Symphony so I purchased that one. It is probably still my personal favorite. It's got everything that is Mahler.

After that experience I ordered Mahler's Complete Symphonies with Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic (now on the Sony label) and started at Symphony No. 1 and went through them in order. Mahler's Symphonies always felt like a natural progression to me so I would probably start at the beginning.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

realdealblues said:


> After that experience I ordered Mahler's Complete Symphonies with Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic (now on the Sony label) and started at Symphony No. 1 and went through them in order. Mahler's Symphonies always felt like a natural progression to me so I would probably start at the beginning.


I agree. Also, I see Ingenue mentioned Deryck Cooke. He has a good little book discussing the songs and symphonies chronologically, with the German lyrics and translations on the side. I'm sure Wikipedia does as well or better, but his enthusiasm and occasional wit would make him a good companion--along with the rest of us!

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=deryck+cooke+mahler&sts=t&x=0&y=0


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2013)

LouisMasterMusic said:


> Can anyone help me with an appropriate order in which to listen to Mahler's symphonies as a newcomer, and why the particular order chosen is important?


Start with 1 and finish with the 10th, inserting Das Lied von der Erde between #9 and #10. I don't have a particularly good reason for it. Try wherever you want to start. But if you have no reason to alter the order, then I say why not just go in numerical order? There are some that are more famous than others - you could maybe listen to those first - 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8, Das Lied von der Erde. But honestly, I would just go in numerical order.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

That's what I did... and it was great!


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

I bought this a long time ago and listened to them in order.


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

Thanks. After having listened to 1 and 5, I need to know what to do next, and I include Das Lied as well on my list. The reason why I'm asking for a complete list is because I'd want to start a journey of discovery, which I can only do with a full list.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

LouisMasterMusic said:


> Thanks. After having listened to 1 and 5, I need to know what to do next, and I include Das Lied as well on my list. The reason why I'm asking for a complete list is because I'd want to start a journey of discovery, which I can only do with a full list.


Hi - if you look back at the beginning of the thread (not started very long ago) you will see that members have some advice which I found very interesting to read. You'll also see that I wrote my reactions as I listened to each piece. Why don't you do the same? It would be nice to see what you think.

Enjoy.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Ingenue said:


> Hi - if you look back at the beginning of the thread (not started very long ago) you will see that members have some advice which I found very interesting to read. You'll also see that I wrote my reactions as I listened to each piece. Why don't you do the same? It would be nice to see what you think.
> 
> Enjoy.


I'd also be interested, Ingenue, if you listen to them again what your second impressions might be. (I realize some time might have to go by before you try them again...).

I found a few of your initial reactions quite different from mine.

But, variety is the spice of life, they say!


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

Having looked at the beginning of the thread, I still don't understand what to do. I'm totally stuck - although maybe Symphony 4, followed by 1, and 5. Where do I go after that? Can someone tell me please?


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## Sudonim (Feb 28, 2013)

LouisMasterMusic said:


> Having looked at the beginning of the thread, I still don't understand what to do. I'm totally stuck - although maybe Symphony 4, followed by 1, and 5. Where do I go after that? Can someone tell me please?


Well, Louis, it's really up to you. But the 4th would be a good next step after 1 and 5, I suppose, if you're new to Mahler - it's one of his "lighter" symphonies, not to mention relatively short.

My favorite is the 3rd, followed by the 2nd, so naturally I'd recommend those to you. Follow those with the 6th and the 9th. Save the 7th and 8th for a little later, when you've had time to absorb what you've heard so far.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

LouisMasterMusic said:


> Having looked at the beginning of the thread, I still don't understand what to do. I'm totally stuck - although maybe Symphony 4, followed by 1, and 5. Where do I go after that? Can someone tell me please?


It's already been suggested that you just listen to them in numerical order.

Personally, I listened to them like this:

#4 - loved it
#7 - loved it
#1 - loved it
#3 - bored
#5 - mostly loved it
#2 - bored
#8 - really, really bored
#6 - loved it
#9 - loved it
#10 - haven't heard it yet

Actually, I wasn't so much bored with #2 as I just couldn't get into it for its extramusical connotations. But, that's just me..


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Ingenue, you (and even I) have received varied but equally valid and useful advice on where to start with Mahler in this thread. I would only add this: attend a *live* Mahler concert. Few composers beg to be performed live, even in this age of digitalized media, as Mahler does. The experience of listening to any of his works, particularly the symphonies, is heightened thereby. Whatever works you select as an introduction, by all means listen to them on cd, but do search out a *good* live concert of Mahler and attend it. I cannot stress this recommendation too strongly. Trust me on this.


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

O.K, I'll start with Symphonies 1 and 5, followed by No.4, and then 3, 2, 6, and 9. Should Das Lied come before both the 7th and 8th, or in between them?


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

Thanks, but I'm going on Sudonim's advice, having known already that listening to Mahler symphonies chronologically might not be so good for a beginner like me. I'm including Das Lied as well. Thanks for the advice anyway.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Going back to the question about the sixth and the order of movements -- I much prefer (and advocate) scherzo second. The harmonic progression of the movements is much more effective that way -- and the spookiness of the opening of the finale is far more effective following the andante.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

I have a very hard time "getting" Mahler. I've listened to the first, second and fifth symphonies but it just doesn't click. I don't hate it or anything. Which symphony do you suggest me to listen to until it sort of get it?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Try the fourth. Alternatively, try the song cycle Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen first.


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

Twenty years ago, I was consumed by Mahler. The 2nd Symphony did it for me. The conclusion is amazing. I love the 8th-it's conclusion is also grand. The slow movement of the 4th is sublime stillness. And the last movements of the 3rd and 9th are Mahlers greatest instrumental conclusions. Anyone else hear Beethoven's lento from his last quartet in Mahler's 3rd concluding movement?


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm going to start with Symphony No.1, continue with 5, and then listen to Symphony No.4. Then I'll watch Symphonies 3, 2, 6, and 9. My only problem though is when to listen to Das Lied, before Symphonies 7, and 8, after them, or sandwiched between them?

I'm following Sudonim's advice on this matter.

(Oh, and also where does Symphony No.10 come)?


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## rarevinyllibrary (Aug 9, 2013)

hum , hum zelots from the Mahlerian cult will not forgive that... i like the way you express your personal feelings with such an ingenuous tone :these bursts of military marchs and heavy brass are now above criticisms with the passing of time and actual worshiping of this over estimated composer .


Ingenue said:


> I just listened to the Sixth Symphony. I was glad to, because its fame had preceded it. A Welsh music-loving RE teacher of mine who died tragically young (he was only 29) used it in a sixth-form discussion lesson as an illustration of someone yearning but finally failing to have faith - his interpretation, presumably from the hammer-blow 'nihilistic' (Wiki-quote) ending.
> 
> I did like the emphatic opening and close; also much of the ?third movement, the quieter wistful bits with harps and bells; but oh why does Mahler crash about so, with brass & military riffs and travelling see-saw links between tunes (this novice asks intrepidly  )?


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I don't agree. The Mahlerians on this site are very measured & helpful, I have found. :tiphat:

I have to do personal feelings because I haven't the knowledge.  But I'm getting there...


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## rarevinyllibrary (Aug 9, 2013)

well , some ill tempered conductors can really speed the plow (SCHERCHEN ,SOLTI) ....hence ,you save time for real good music ....:tiphat:


Ingenue said:


> I don't agree. The Mahlerians on this site are very measured & helpful, I have found.
> 
> I have to do personal feelings because I haven't the knowledge.  But I'm getting there...


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

Hey Ingenue,

Sudonim told me that my order should be 1, 5, 4, 3, 2, 6, and 9, but where should Symphony No.10 and Das Lied come, before Symphonies 7 and 8, after them, or sandwiched between the two? If you could help me, I'd be grateful, and I'd also hopefully be able to start my journey sooner.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

If you insist on that sequence, I'd put Das Lied relatively early (between 4 and 3), and the 10th last. Even though my name is not Ingenue.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

In all honesty, I think you should listen to them in *whatever order you like*, LouisMasterMusic. The main thing is to wait till you have the *time* & *patience*, and to *make notes* as you listen - then you will remember your reactions. Please do write a 'personal response' afterwards. I'd love to read it, as I'm sure would others. :tiphat:

For myself, I listened (on moody's recommendation) to Kathleen Ferrier singing *Das Lied von der Erde *first of all; then I listened to the symphonies in order, 1 to 10, as you'll see from my posts above. And when I get the chance I'll be listening to the song of the earth again with the other songs. I probably won't post my reaction to Das Lied though - will leave that to you. 

Have a fabulous week!


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm sorry, but I was replying to his comment, but at least someone got back to me.


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

Thanks, I'll be starting as soon as I can, but with lots of Jewish Festivals coming up, there's so much to be done for them.


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## nightscape (Jun 22, 2013)

Muddy said:


> I love the 8th-it's conclusion is also grand.


That part of the very end with the horns gets me every time.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

A lot of people will recommend the 1st symphony, but it is my least favorite of all. I find it bombastic and overblown, like some Beethoven symphony movements, and I don't think the themes are good to merit such loud and extensive treatment. Instead I would recommend starting with the 4th. It is light, accessible, and short by Mahler standards.

This is just my opinion.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

:tiphat: Thanks to Moody for his help with 'where to start' with the *Mahler Lieder*.

This is a purely _personal response_, which is why I started the thread. So I am going to be upfront about my reactions. I'd rather not miff any Mahler lovers, but as I grew up in Yorkshire, I just *have* to be honest.

*Song of the Earth*, sung by Kathleen Ferrier (thanks, Moody) -beautiful, in places sublime; moving.

*Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen.- Songs of a wayfare*r - tender & lyrical; poignant; lovely.

*Das Knaben Wunderhorn* -  truly ghastly! Especially the men singing chuckle-German in arch voices. The slower, more lyrical songs sung by women were *just about* bearable. That's the highest praise I can muster!

*So it's the Symphonies for me, in this order*. 
Second, 'Resurrection' - this is wonderful.
Ninth
Tenth
First
Third
Seventh
Sixth
Eighth & Fifth - curate's eggs: good half & horrid half, as far as I was concerned.
Fourth - just didn't warm to this one.

:tiphat: Thanks to so many posters above for helping, but especially *Mahlerian*. 
I am so pleased to have undertaken the project, and I *will *go back and listen to my 'nice bits'.

My general opinion on Mahler is that I love his lyrical, tender passages, I love the way he can hold the universe in the palm of his hand and pour it gently into my ear - but I hate the chuckly or pom-pom-pom passages; *up* with cow bells, and *down* with brass bands!

Remember, amigos, I am *an ignoramus* and my opinion certainly *does not count*!

Live long & prosper.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2013)

Have you listened to the other Lieder cycles, because there are some key ones you are leaving off - Kindertotenlieder and the Ruckert Lieder. The Ruckert Lieder, in particular, contain Mahler's most poignant Lied (IMHO) - Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen. There is a wonderful recording on EMI with the incomparable Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (a wonderful Lieder singer, if there ever was one) performing the Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, the Kindertotenlieder, 5 songs from Des Knaben Wunderhorn, and the 5 Ruckert Lieder. I highly recommend it.

Your list of order of preference surprises me a little, but then Mahler is different for everybody. Like you, I also place the 2nd at the top, and the 9th and 10th certainly deserve high rankings (did you listen to just the Adagio from the 10th, or did you listen to a "completed" version?). For me, though, the 6th commands a higher position - currently it is my second favorite. And the 4th and 5th certainly, for me, rank higher than the 7th and 8th. The ones that still don't connect with me as much are the 3rd, 7th, and 8th.

But to each their own. Incidentally, for some of the works - the 8th in particular - I didn't come to appreciate them until I found the right recording. With the 8th, I really don't care for the Solti recording that many rave about. The recording by Nagano on Harmonia Mundi has led more to my appreciation of this work.

But glad to hear you are enjoying some of the great works of this composer. If you are ever looking for other recordings of DLvdE (personally, I have also never felt that the Ferrier recording lived up to its hype), then I recommend Kubelik's live recording on Audite with the phenomenal Janet Baker, or Reiner on RCA with Maureen Forrester. Klemperer with Christa Ludwig on EMI is also a great one.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Thanks, DrMike - oops, no  - I have accidentally missed out some Lieder! 
I will listen to what you suggest. :tiphat:

My order of preference *is* probably very illogical - it's just based on what _grabbed_ me. 
The 8th was a Jekyll-and-Hyde beast for me. 
I listened first to just the adagio from the 10th, but then to a completed version, with an accompanying lecture of explanation.

It's just the person I am - I like wistful emotions and subtle lyricism and hate anything arch or grandiose.

Thanks for the further recommendations of recordings: something I will get round to, definitely.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Such a nice word, Ignoramus.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

shangoyal said:


> Such a nice word, Ignoramus.


..... and I live up to it so well!


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Not if you invented the word!



Ingélou said:


> ..... and I live up to it so well!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

shangoyal said:


> Not if you invented the word!


I didn't make it up! It's Latin, first person plural, 'we do not know'. A bit jokey, though.
People sometimes treat it wrongly. The plural of 'ignoramus' is ignoramus*es*, not 'ignorami', on the analogy of cactus/cacti.

People younger than me often do not study Latin at school in the way that we did. I took Latin A-level, though it's mostly faded now, but I do have a fondness for the classics.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> I didn't make it up! It's Latin, first person plural, 'we do not know'. A bit jokey, though.
> People sometimes treat it wrongly. The plural of 'ignoramus' is ignoramus*es*, not 'ignorami', on the analogy of cactus/cacti.
> 
> People younger than me often do not study Latin at school in the way that we did. I took Latin A-level, though it's mostly faded now, but I do have a fondness for the classics.


Ha! Yeah, I never studied Latin (did French) so most words in Latin sound to my ears like scientific terms or in-the-moment fictions.  I dare say, in a few years, youngsters will start thinking Latin is a language they speak in South America.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Ingélou said:


> It's just the person I am - I like wistful emotions and subtle lyricism and hate anything arch or grandiose.


If this were in all cases the case, I would wonder at the fact that you chose the Second for your top pick (by no means Mahler's most subtle work). Maybe you're not reacting to the things you think you're reacting to.

In any event, I would recommend that you never give up entirely on the things you don't like now, and I'm glad to have helped on your journey!


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

I should've made a second home to this thread ages ago. _All apologize. _:tiphat:



shangoyal said:


> Such a nice word, Ignoramus.


If a linguist did a tally of all _wordy_ words and _vulgar tongue_ words of all languages, regions and dialects throughout the western world, would they find more words for 'stupid/dumb' than any other? Therefore in theory, stupid is even nicer. :lol:


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Clovis said:


> I should've made a second home to this thread ages ago. _All apologize. _:tiphat:
> 
> If a linguist did a tally of all _wordy_ words and _vulgar tongue_ words of all languages, regions and dialects throughout the western world, would they find more words for 'stupid/dumb' than any other? Therefore in theory, stupid is even nicer. :lol:


That is a very deep observation, it takes on a few philosophical meanings when you read and re-read it. But Ignoramus is beyond theory, it has a vibration I cannot explain.


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

^ yes yes indeed, quite right...


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2013)

Clovis said:


> I should've made a second home to this thread ages ago. _All apologize. _:tiphat:
> 
> If a linguist did a tally of all _wordy_ words and _vulgar tongue_ words of all languages, regions and dialects throughout the western world, would they find more words for 'stupid/dumb' than any other? Therefore in theory, stupid is even nicer. :lol:


Interestingly, I think the German language has quite a few words that essentially mean death/destruction. Read into that what you will.


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