# Good Musicals/Plays?



## Quaverion (Jul 20, 2004)

What musicals/plays do you like? Has anyone seen "Oklahoma!"? Do you like musicals at all? I thought "Oklahoma!" was kind of wierd because everyone picks on Judd and then they are happy when he dies, but he hasn't really done anything to them, and Gershwin makes it seem like Judd's death is a good thing. At least that is the way it was in the tape I rented of it. I never saw it in the theatre. If you saw the tape, don't you hate the type of scenes like when the girls are dressing and when the main girl is having the dream? If noone ever saw it, then just write your opinions on other musicals you've seen.


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## becky (Jul 19, 2004)

I love musicals. Everytime I go on a road trip I pack a few CD's of muscals to pass the time. The Phantom of the Opera is my favorite. I saw it in Toronto at an impressionable age (15.) I also really like Evita, Les Mis, Fiddler on the Roof, Cats and the West Side Story. I've seen the West Side Story as performed my St. Ignasius (sp?) high school in Cleveland. The rest I've only seen the movies or haven't seen at all ... but I have the soundtracks to all of them and more. It's kind of embarassing, but I know the words to almost all of them ... spoken lines, too.


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## Quaverion (Jul 20, 2004)

You should look up "Oklahoma!" I love the song "Poor Judd is Dead." It's great.


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

Musicals aren't my favourite. They sound for me very similar each piece. About plays, i would say i like Schiller and Shakespeare plays best


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## Quaverion (Jul 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by daniel_@Aug 7 2004, 04:53 AM
> *Musicals aren't my favourite. They sound for me very similar each piece. About plays, i would say i like Schiller and Shakespeare plays best
> [snapback]1346[/snapback]​*


Me, too. I only like a few of the songs from certain musicals. B) I love Macbeth.


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## The Angel of Music (Jul 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Rhadamanthus_@Aug 6 2004, 09:42 PM
> *What musicals/plays do you like?
> [snapback]1302[/snapback]​*


I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE the phantom of the opera!!!!! LOL. My dream and goal is to be Christine in the Phantom...I mean play the part. I have never seen The Phantom of the Opera, but....I do have all the sheet music and whole entire script as well as the 2 disc CD of the original cast and another version of it! There is also a musical called, "Phantom," based on the same story...and written at the same time as Andrew LLyodd Webber wrote his. The music is so beautiful it can break your heart *sniffles.* I love My Fair Lady, especially the song, "I Could Have Danced All Night," which I have sung many many many times lol in public. I want to see Rocky Horror Picture Show...because I did the timewarp with some people in some talent show and it was so fun! I know so many songs from musicals...but I haven't seen many! I seen, "The King And I," on video...it was awesome!!!! I seen, "The Sound of Music," on video also. I seen "South Pacific," which was not a favorite of mine...it was kind of corny too me...but I sang Bali Hai from that musical...which was very very very fun...and it is a beautiful song. I seen The Wizard of Oz which I hated because it is so overplayed. Oh! I want too see the Lion King on musical! And I want to tour as Tuptim from, "The King and I." I love musicals! Tee hee!!!


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## The Angel of Music (Jul 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Rhadamanthus_@Aug 7 2004, 03:06 PM
> * I love Macbeth.
> [snapback]1352[/snapback]​*


I LOVE THAT PLAY!!!!!


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## oistrach13 (Jul 14, 2004)

me too . I love shakespeare, all his work is nice, so far I've read king lear, macbeth, and hamlet . they're all wonderful  

MacBeth was turned into an opera by verdi. I heard a bit of it, with fischer-dieskau, I was impressed by how verdi manages to keep the atmosphere of the play, despite the cuts, and the less than perfect italian libretto (not everybody is shakepeare) .


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## becky (Jul 19, 2004)

Oh yeah, Shakespeare is the best. I don't like to read it, though. It needs to be performed! I've seen the Comedy of Errors at OSU and the Tempest, which was performed by the Royal Shakespeare Company (that performance was great.) I also enjoy the movies, both recent and old ones.


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## Jessica (Dec 28, 2004)

Has anyone seen Les Miserables? I've heard about this play so many times, but I've never heard what it's about. The poster intrigues me with the painting of the child. The story doesn't sound too perky from the title does it? lol


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## MustPractice (Feb 28, 2005)

The Angel of Music said:


> I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE the phantom of the opera!!!!! LOL.


There are profound reasons why some things are still better left as they are.
I caught the Phantom film a few mths back...
There simply was too much nonsense and practically too much singing.
They shouldn't have toyed with the original stage play.
Leave it alone people!
 
I love Shakespeare also... except Merchant of Venice.


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## MustPractice (Feb 28, 2005)

Yeah, I nearly forgot.. I quite like Gershwin's Porgy and Bess.
The song Summertime is a classic, sleek.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Into the Woods is one of my favorites.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Cats / Les Miserables/ Joseph and the amazing dreamboat .
Holy Moses, OP dates from 2004 :lol:


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Quaverion said:


> What musicals/plays do you like? Has anyone seen "Oklahoma!"? Do you like musicals at all? I thought "Oklahoma!" was kind of wierd because everyone picks on Judd and then they are happy when he dies, but he hasn't really done anything to them, and Gershwin makes it seem like Judd's death is a good thing. ...


I don't know what Gershwin has to do with this, but you prove perceptive in identifying the Judd problem as you do. _Oklahoma!_ was the first of the several musicals I've had an opportunity to direct, and the Judd issue can indeed make one uncomfortable. As an ironist I seek out irony in drama, and the relationship of Curly and Judd is a splendid example of irony. We have a story proposing a friendly relationship between antagonists, farmers and cattle herders ("cowmen") (a classic "western" conflict), and the "hero", Curly, who should be working to promote the friendship, actually spurs up antagonism and hatred. Of course, the "friendship" between cowmen and farmers is cemented through marriage in this play, not through a more logical agreement of pure tolerance and cooperation and understanding of the conflicted parties. When one considers the era in which this play was written and the various conflicts facing America and the world in that era (conflicts such as race and religious and nationalistic bigotry), one may find the solution _Oklahoma! _proposes as ironical, as well. Marriage was often the last solution for settling such prejudices, in favor of less intimate solutions such as treaties and mutual agreements of give-and-take.

It remains a problematical story. But the music, by Richard Rodgers and librettist Oscar Hammerstein II, still reigns superb.

You might enjoy reading the following article: https://www.onstageblog.com/columns/2016/4/20/poor-jud-fry-a-different-perspective-on-oklahoma

Meanwhile, continue exploring musicals, theatre, and music in general. With your apparent sense of perception, you should find much to ponder. And, you should find that that very pondering enhances your understanding of life itself. Which is what art is actually all about.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SONNET CLV said:


> I don't know what Gershwin has to do with this, but you prove perceptive in identifying the Judd problem as you do. _Oklahoma!_ was the first of the several musicals I've had an opportunity to direct, and the Judd issue can indeed make one uncomfortable. As an ironist I seek out irony in drama, and the relationship of Curly and Judd is a splendid example of irony. We have a story proposing a friendly relationship between antagonists, farmers and cattle herders ("cowmen") (a classic "western" conflict), and the "hero", Curly, who should be working to promote the friendship, actually spurs up antagonism and hatred. Of course, the "friendship" between cowmen and farmers is cemented through marriage in this play, not through a more logical agreement of pure tolerance and cooperation and understanding of the conflicted parties. When one considers the era in which this play was written and the various conflicts facing America and the world in that era (conflicts such as race and religious and nationalistic bigotry), one may find the solution _Oklahoma! _proposes as ironical, as well. Marriage was often the last solution for settling such prejudices, in favor of less intimate solutions such as treaties and mutual agreements of give-and-take.
> 
> It remains a problematical story. But the music, by Richard Rodgers and librettist Oscar Hammerstein II, still reigns superb.
> 
> ...


Have you seen the current Broadway revival?

https://www.broadwayworld.com/reviews/Oklahoma-

I'm a New Yorker and saw my first musical at age 5 - "My Fair Lady." Favorites include "Gypsy," "Sweeney Todd," "Guys and Dolls," "and She Loves Me" (the most underrated musical of all time). "West Side Story" is up there, but the text (book and lyrics) are not great. The original 1966 Broadway production of "Cabaret" may have been the most shocking. I've only seen "Hamilton" once, but it may join the list.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

jegreenwood said:


> Have you seen the current Broadway revival?


No, I have not. I would, however, welcome such an opportunity.

I remain open to new interpretations of classic works. I maintain that the greater the play, the more open to interpretation it is. One need not "like" every interpretation, and one will certainly find favorites among the several he/she experiences. And it remains just as wrong to attempt radically "different" interpretations of a work as it is to simply duplicate something that has already been produced. The producer/director/designer should approach the script with a serious sense of attempting to render a "true" manifestation of the _meaning_ of the play, whatever that itself means. Even when the directorial approach is to allow the audience to derive personal meaning from the visual rendering of the script, that approach must still rely upon grasping the interpretive clues (metaphors, symbols, characterizations, design suggestions) inherent in the script. I tend to prefer playscripts in which the playwright has not encumbered the script with too much setting verbiage. Shakespeare's scripts are fine examples, where the director/producer/designer has free reign to use imagination. The idea still remains to stay "true" to the individual script. One can produce an adventurous _Hamlet_ that is simply wrong, or an adventurous _Hamlet_ that clicks on all cylinders.

Classics such as _Oklahoma!_ often prove problematical for audiences who (erroneously, I argue) expect to see the film version rendered on the stage. Sometimes the slightest variation from the familiar strikes in them a sour chord and leading to an overall disfavor with the work. A skillfully rendered interpretation should set aside most of these consternations to allow the viewers to "get" the work. Still, some productions are more successful than others.

I had opportunity to direct _Oklahoma!_ twice, some decades apart. Both of my interpretations respected the traditions of the play, with an obvious western setting and traditional costuming. Still, much differed from production one to production two. I recall that one of my favorite features in my second production was the use of a come-to-life scarecrow which interacted with the characters in various scenes and song numbers, from Curly's entrance through the corn field through to playing a banjo at the wedding fest. Was this a fantastical _Oklahoma!_ from the universe of the _Wizard of Oz_? Perhaps. But it was still _Oklahoma!_

One likely never gets the full sense of any play (except maybe the shallowest of the shallowest) from any single viewing, which is why it is important to experience a variety of interpretations. The same with great musical works. The various interpretations allow for an expansion of consciousness in one's appreciation of a work. Which is good.

I've read _Macbeth_ hundreds of times, seen dozens of productions, directed it once, and I am still learning about the universe of that play. It's vastness of consciousness continues to confound and amaze, but it also lures me onward to keep exploring. And only the greatest of art can do such.it

_Oklahoma!_ may not be on a par with _Hamlet_ or _Macbeth_, but it is still a good work of art and has much to offer those who seek to know it. Hopefully directors will continue offering new visions of this piece. It certainly deserves the time and effort.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Spoiler alert for anyone interested in seeing the show.

This article discusses some of the original aspect of this production.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/10/theater/oklahoma-musical-songs.html

And this from the Tonys:


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## alexander13j (Dec 11, 2020)

> Shakespeare's scripts are fine examples, where the director/producer/designer has free reign to use imagination. The idea still remains to stay "true" to the individual script. One can produce an adventurous Hamlet that is simply wrong, or an adventurous Hamlet that clicks on all cylinders.


I can totally agree with you. Shakespeare is a true genius, and he knew for sure how to write poetry in a way, which would everyone love and be amazed. I've recently could find pretty nice article of shakespeare facts and what exactly helped him to be one of the most famous writers of the world.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

My favorite musicals are:

_West Side Story_ by Bernstein and Sondheim, for the music, not so much for the story line which I don't find to be terribly profound. Still every tune is a hit!

_Fiddler On The Roof_ by Bock and Harnick, for the music, as well as, for the message which is quite profound and universal; and the balance between preserving the values and sense of identity we get from "tradition"; and opening ourselves up to new ideas and to others who may not agree with our world view, is an important dichotomy.

_Chess_ by two of the members of ABBA; because I'm as obsessed with chess as I am with classical music.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Jessica said:


> Has anyone seen Les Miserables? I've heard about this play so many times, but I've never heard what it's about. The poster intrigues me with the painting of the child. The story doesn't sound too perky from the title does it? lol


I've musical directed a production of *Les Miserables*. I was supposed to MD it again this summer, but COVID.

Musicals are, and have been, a very large portion of my life. I've been a part (directed, MD'd, conducted, performed in, or been in the orchestra pit) of/for 6 Rodgers and Hammerstein shows, and all of the Gilbert and Sullivan shows.

I'm a big fan of Sondheim. Sweeney Todd and Into the Woods are a couple of the finest shows ever written for the Broadway stage. He also wrote the lyrics for West Side Story, also in my personal Top Ten Musicals.

*My Top Ten* (more or less) [in no particular order]

Sweeney Todd, the Demon Barber of Fleet Street (Sondheim/Hugh Wheeler)
Into the Woods (Sondheim/James Lapine)
West Side Story (Bernstein /Sondheim/Arthur Laurents) 
Les Miserables (Schönberg, Boublil, Natel)
Cabaret (the musical, NOT the film) (Kander and Ebb/Joe Masteroff)
Grease (the musical, NOT the film) (Jim Jacobs, Warren Casey)
The Fantasticks (Harvey Schmidt & Tom Jones)
Little Shop of Horrors (Mencken & Ashman)
In the Heights (Lin-Manuel Miranda, Quiara Alegría Hudes)
Chicago (Kander & Ebb, Bob Fosse)
Evita (Andrew Lloyd Webber, Tim Rice)
Urinetown (Mark Hollmann, Greg Kotis)
Man of La Mancha (Joe Darion, Mitch Leigh/Dale Wasserman)
The Secret Garden (Lucy Simon, Marsha Norman)
The Pirates of Penzance (Gilbert & Sullivan)
Finian's Rainbow (The musical, not the film)
A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder

*Honorable Mentions*

Hamilton
Wicked
The Music Man (Meredith Willson)
Spring Awakening
Oliver!
Porgy and Bess
Godspell
Assassins (Sondheim)
Big River (Roger Miller/William Hauptman)
City of Angels
Evil Dead the Musical


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I like some musicals - older ones. Call me Boomer if you want, but I like musicals that I can hum the tunes to when I leave. So do most people. So many recent ones have become too dark, too serious, and try to make a political or social commentary when all the audience wants is to be entertained. That's why I hated Hamilton.

1. The Book of Mormon (I haven't laughed so hard in years). And it's a newer one! Great tunes.
2. The Music Man. 
3. Sound of Music
4. Oklahoma!
5. My Fair Lady
6. Show Boat
7. Camelot
8. Brigadoon
9. Man of La Mancha
10. West Side Story


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

Three ballsy musicals from the 1950s: Guys and Dolls, The Pyjama Game, and Damn Yankees.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> ...
> 1. The Book of Mormon (I haven't laughed so hard in years). And it's a newer one! Great tunes.
> ...


_The Qur'an: The Musical_ oughta be a riot too. I wonder when that one will premiere...


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I was fortunate enough, at the age of about 9, to have been taken to a Boston run-out of the original production of My Fair Lady, and never looked back. Can agree with mbhaub's and Davids Philips' lists, but would be happy never ever to hear The Sound of Music again. Oklahoma has second act problems, but the songs are terrific. She Loves Me is an unappreciated gem. On a Clear Day . . . has terrific music, but an impossible book. Hello Dolly may be good, but has the most unjustly popular title song I know.
Had to convince my son, who is a set designer, that life in the '50s was largely not like Grease. The Secret Garden, which is not well known, is surprisingly good. Anything by Sondheim borders on brilliance. [Best put-down I have ever heard: Andrew Lloyd Weber: "Why does everyone seem to take such an instant dislike to me?" Alan Jay Lerner: "Saves time."]

In my mid-teens when it first came out, knowing nothing but the title, I just assumed -- and labored under the misapprehension for years -- that The Unsinkable Molly Brown was about a tugboat. 
Martin Best, one-time Music Director of the Royal Shakespeare Company, wrote a setting of Who is Sylvia? that is still impressive.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

My favorites in that genre would be West Side Story, Show Boat and My Fair Lady.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

One of my kids was in a High School production of West Side Story. Goes to show how things change in 60 years when my reaction to the once alarmingly dramatic line "He has a gun!" evoked in me little more than a chuckle.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

MarkW said:


> One of my kids was in a High School production of West Side Story. Goes to show how things change in 60 years when my reaction to the once alarmingly dramatic line "He has a gun!" evoked in me little more than a chuckle.


Lol, yeah it's dated. I do love that "America" number though, especially in the film version.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

FWIW, about a decade ago, New York Magazine assembled a panel of well-known musical theater lovers to pick the greatest musical of all time. The three that tied for the most votes were "Guys & Dolls," "Gypsy," and "Sweeney Todd."


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

consuono said:


> _The Qur'an: The Musical_ oughta be a riot too. I wonder when that one will premiere...


There are plenty of musicals, both serious and funny, that draw upon religious sources. But the Abrahamic-based religions are in the majority. It also depends on how you classify them as well. For instance, there are many shows that lean heavily on cultural Judaism (that is, shows that illuminate the Jewish experience), and not so many religiously Jewish. I can mostly speak only to musicals, but there's a few non-musicals that come to mind.

And naturally, shows based on stories in the Old Testament tend to overlap into judaism, as they are pre-Christian.

*Jewish*

Any Neil Simon play
The Merchant of Venice (A Venetian Jewish moneylender, Shylock, is the play's principal character)
The Diary of Anne Frank

Fiddler on the Roof 
Falsettos
Rags
Ragtime
Cabaret
Milk and Honey
Parade
War Paint
Two By Two
Children of Eden 
Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat
The Prince of Egypt

Bye Bye Birdie (Albert's mother is written as a stereotypical Jewish mother)

*New Testament*

Godspell
Jesus Christ Superstar
The Book of Mormon
Sister Act
The Sound of Music

The Lion King
Oh, yeah, there's some embedded religious overtones. Bunches of 'em.

There's bunches more, I'm sure. Those are just the ones that come to mind immediately.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

pianozach said:


> There are plenty of musicals, both serious and funny, that draw upon religious sources. But the Abrahamic-based religions are in the majority. ...


Yeah, well the point was that satirizing or poking fun at Mormons -- or Christianity in general -- is pretty much shooting fish in a barrel. Now if you want to be *really* "edgy" and brave...


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

I've only ever attended one musical: Les Miserables in Sydney. Can't remember what gave me the idea to go, except that the theatre was just over the road from where I worked to make Sydney electronic train ticketing function properly.

Anyway. Maybe it was the production. Maybe it was the name of the work. But by God, what a thoroughly awful, miserable experience it was. I sat there within the first five minutes wishing I had brought ear plugs: the *VOLUME*!!!!!!

Seriously: it must have been miked to position 12 on a 10-position amp. It was awful. I remember insisting we didn't go back after the blessed relief of the interval, but was outvoted on the basis that we'd paid $70 for the tickets, so we were going to listen even if it killed us (it damn near did me!)

I didn't even get to listen to anything really, because it was all so bloody deafening. If that's the usual experience of musicals, count me out, I'm afraid.

I have since watched some of the "numbers" from that musical on Youtube and enjoyed them; but at the time, I just wanted to kill someone.

(Footnote: I suffer from misophonia, so sudden loud noise physically makes me angry and tense. I withstood all that the might of the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra could unleash during their Ring cycle without so much as a flutter. But Les Mis... Oh dear! )


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

I saw the film of Cats. Everyone reckoned it was awful but I enjoyed it.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

*Quaverion*
_"What musicals/plays do you like? Has anyone seen "Oklahoma!"? Do you like musicals at all? I thought "Oklahoma!" was kind of wierd because everyone picks on Judd and then they are happy when he dies, but he hasn't really done anything to them, and Gershwin makes it seem like Judd's death is a good thing. ... "_

Where to start?

First off, *Oklahoma!* is a *Rodgers & Hammerstein* musical.

Oklahoma! "epitomized the development of the "book musical", a musical play where the songs and dances are fully integrated into a well-made story, with serious dramatic goals, that is able to evoke genuine emotions other than amusement. In addition, Oklahoma! features musical themes, or motifs, that recur throughout the work to connect the music and story." [Wikipedia]

It's so significant that the two won a Pulitzer Prize for it in 1944.

As it opened in 1943, it won no Tony Awards, as the award wasn't even founded until 1947. The first Tony Award given for Best Musical was handed to *Kiss Me, Kate* (music by Cole Porter), at the 3rd Tony Awards ceremony in 1949.

In fact, if you'd like a definitive list of "Great Musicals", just extract all the nominees from every year (including the other categories:

Best Performance by a Leading Actor in a Musical
Best Performance by a Featured Actor in a Musical
Best Performance by a Leading Actress in a Musical
Best Performance by a Featured Actress in a Musical

Best Musical
Best Revival of a Musical
Best Direction of a Musical
Best Book of a Musical
Best Original Score
Best Orchestrations
Best Choreography
Best Scenic Design in a Musical
Best Costume Design in a Musical
Best Lighting Design in a Musical
Best Sound Design of a Musical

Naturally this won't be ALL of the great musicals, and not all musicals that received nominations deserve the adjective "great", but this is a great place to start.

And musicals produced prior to 1948-1949 aren't represented (unless a revival is recognized), but I can give you some suggestions. Granted, the genre of "musical" has evolved greatly since Oklahoma! in 1943, so you have to forgive a certain amount of their artistic, technical and musical backwardness.

Also, a lot of what were called "musicals" prior to that were actually slapped-together revues (a series of sketches and songs with little or no connection between them). There might be a loose framework, like in *"Bright Lights of 1944"*: Act one is set in Sardi's, a New York City Theater District restaurant, where two producers are planning a show, while the second act is the show the producers were planning in act one.

1948
Where's Charley?

1947 
Allegro
Brigadoon
Finian's Rainbow

1946 
Annie Get Your Gun

1945
Carousel

1944
On The Town
Song of Norway

1943
Carmen Jones
Oklahoma!

1940
Pal Joey

1938
The Boys from Syracuse (based on Shakespeare's The Comedy of Errors)

1935
Porgy and Bess

1934
Anything Goes 
(There were extensive revisions to revivals of the show, including which Cole Porter songs were used: 1962, 1987, & 2011. There aren't that many songs that ALL versions of the show have in common: "I Get a Kick Out of You", "You're the Top", "Anything Goes", "Blow, Gabriel, Blow", "Be Like the Bluebird", "All Through the Night", and a couple of short minor numbers)

1931
The Band Wagon
Of Thee I Sing

1930
Girl Crazy

1928
Animal Crackers (The Marx Brothers)
The Threepenny Opera

1927
Showboat

1925
No, No, Nanette

1910
Naughty Marietta (operetta)

1907
The Merry Widow (operetta)

1903
Babes in Toyland (operetta)

1893
A Gaiety Girl

Of course, it's not like there's no antecedent to the "Broadway Musical". Composers had been presenting operas and operettas, and even oratorios, for centuries. Certainly musical theatre owes a huge debt to the comic operettas of Gilbert & Sullivan: The Pirates of Penzance, The Mikado, H.M.S. Pinafore, Iolanthe, Ruddigore, The Yeomen of the Guard (their only non-comedic operetta), and The Grand Duke. And they inspired Rudolf Friml and Victor Herbert.

As for poor Jud Fry, he may have been picked on because he was a psychological wreck. He was only valuable for his strength. Otherwise he was an unlikeable pervert. It's pointed out during the shoe that he keeps girly photos on his wall, and asks the traveling salesman for one of those picture tubes equipped with a switchblade. He's a stalker too. Why Laurey would consider going to the fair with him is certainly a complex plot point.

But I can see the where one might view Jud as a sympathetic character: The girl he's always dreamed of going to the party with agrees to go with him. He's saved up his money for two years to bid on her dinner at the auction, and then he watches an entire community work together to prevent him from getting the only thing he wants.

It's like the film Carrie!: He thinks he's finally going to get what he wants and he watches as everyone onstage takes it away from him.

But such is the genius of Oscar Hammerstein; he presents a stereotype with subversive subtext that MAKES YOU THINK. Such is the inclusion of the song "You've Got to be Carefully Taught" in South Pacific. Yeah, the subtext seems rather obvious NOW, but it was a sneaky way to give Broadway a small voice for civil rights.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Handelian said:


> I saw the film of *Cats*. Everyone reckoned it was awful but I enjoyed it.


It's OK to enjoy it.

And it _*is*_ awful. Frankly, the stage version has an awful lot of awful aspects to it. But it's redeemed by the nifty costumes, fantasy element, driving beat-driven pop music, and some spectacular dancing.

The creators of the film version failed to retain the successful elements, and "camped it up" beyond the limits of cinematic decency. They also failed with their attempts to utilize CGI in a manner that didn't call attention to itself.

And it's OK to have a personal liking to something that's awful. People might like dumbass horror films, or movies with lots of explosions. Lifetime Channel presents sappy idiotic romance movies, and they''re still in business after decades. Some folks love wrestling.

Cats is still entertaining; it just a lousy adaptation of one of the most successful Broadway shows of all time.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

consuono said:


> Yeah, well the point was that satirizing or poking fun at Mormons -- or Christianity in general -- is pretty much shooting fish in a barrel. Now if you want to be *really* "edgy" and brave...


I'd say that a great many "shows" utilize "making fun" of a particular type of person, or a group of them. Or they use them as stereotyped backdrop.

Plain and Fancy takes place in Amish country in Pennsylvania
Almost every Rodgers & Hammerstein musical appropriates some sort of regional stereotype, whether it's The King and I (the backwards Siamese), Flower Drum Song (Chinese), The Sound of Music (Nazis and nuns).
Spamalot makes fun of the British.
In fact, most of the Gilbert & Sullivan operettas make fun of the Brits and British royalty and government, especially The Mikado.

In a way, it's a large part of comedy in general.

Actually, I can think of only one musical that really pokes fun of Middle Easterners (and, by proxy, Islam): A bomb of a show called "*Oh, Brother*", based on Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors. It was such a failure it doesn't even have a Wikipedia page.

I think it may be one of the most unintentionally insulting Musicals ever written. The lyrics are juvenile and very politically incorrect, while the music is mostly forgettable.

Songs like "Opec Maiden" and especially "Revolution" will have you hoping that no one else knows you're listening to this insensitive material. Even the names of the characters will have you cringing: "Fatatatatatima?" "Ayatollah?" Even the show's tagline is marginally offensive: ". . . . Musical Comedy Breaks Out in the Middle East!"

By the way, this show closed after three performances.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> whether it's The King and I (the backwards Siamese)


I don't think they're portrayed as being "backward" in that, just different. Certainly I don't get the feeling that Thailand is being skewered. If anything is harshly examined it's royal absolutism and misogyny.


> I think it may be one of the most unintentionally insulting Musicals ever written. The lyrics are juvenile and very politically incorrect, while the music is mostly forgettable.
> 
> Songs like "Opec Maiden" and especially "Revolution" will have you hoping that no one else knows you're listening to this insensitive material. Even the names of the characters will have you cringing: "Fatatatatatima?" "Ayatollah?" Even the show's tagline is marginally offensive: ". . . . Musical Comedy Breaks Out in the Middle East!"


It sounds like crap, but then "Book of Mormon" doesn't sound like it was created with any overarching and pervasive sensitivity to Mormons, either. That's the point. And I'm not a Mormon, btw.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

^ Oh yeah, as for good musicals I'd rank Cabaret up there. The film version was good anyway. From what I've read the stage version was probably better.


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## EnescuCvartet (Dec 16, 2016)

My favorite film musicals are movies that would be worthwhile even without the music.The Music Man fits this bill, as does Singing in the Rain. The music itself only makes these movies better, particularly The Music Man, which has some clever and catchy numbers.

All that said, I prefer the film musicals of the 1930's, as they are full of charm. Few films are more charming than the Astaire/Rogers mid-30's films. The Ernst Lubitsch films of the same era are also very charming and funny.

Other favorites include the big Busby Berkelely Warner's musicals like 42nd Street, Footlight Parade, Dames, and Gold Diggers of 1933.

The Eleanor Powell 30's films are all in a similar vein and all worthwhile.

I don't watch these movies for their music, but I do enjoy the musical aspect of them.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

EnescuCvartet said:


> My favorite film musicals are movies that would be worthwhile even without the music.The Music Man fits this bill, as does Singing in the Rain. The music itself only makes these movies better, particularly The Music Man, which has some clever and catchy numbers.
> 
> All that said, I prefer the film musicals of the 1930's, as they are full of charm. Few films are more charming than the Astaire/Rogers mid-30's films. The Ernst Lubitsch films of the same era are also very charming and funny.
> 
> ...


If you are a Lubitsch fan, you really do need to see _She Loves Me!_, which is based on _The Shop Around the Corner._ I have videos of both of them, and I would dare to say the musical is better. (I've also seen _She Loves Me!_ on stage several times.) A perfect example of the integrated musical, even if Jerry Bock works the Hungarian gypsy music a little too much.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

consuono said:


> I don't think they're portrayed as being "backward" in that, just different. Certainly I don't get the feeling that Thailand is being skewered. If anything is harshly examined it's royal absolutism and misogyny.
> It sounds like crap, but then "Book of Mormon" doesn't sound like it was created with any overarching and pervasive sensitivity to Mormons, either. That's the point. And I'm not a Mormon, btw.


Oscar Hammerstein, again, was able to present stereotypes with subtextual non-stereotype depth.

Tuptim puts together a show (within the show) of a Thai version of Uncle Tom's Cabin, as a political statement against slaves in Siam.

The King is a *******, but has an inquistive and curious mind, and wants to bring his kingdom into the modern world.

There's a wonderful song that the King's #1 wife sings (along with the rest of the wives): _*Western People Funny*_. It's sung in pigeon English, to disguise the subversive content.

So, I agree. Hammerstein wrote with a wonderful depth. Book of Mormon reflects today's culture in its "skewering".

I know some Mormons, and they think the show is a riot. Doesn't bother them at all. A lot of them have a sense of humor.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

pianozach said:


> ...
> I know some Mormons, and they think the show is a riot. Doesn't bother them at all. A lot of them have a sense of humor.


No doubt, and they also know (like Southerners and Evangelicals) that it won't do them any good to be offended.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

consuono said:


> ^ Oh yeah, as for good musicals I'd rank Cabaret up there. The film version was good anyway. From what I've read the stage version was probably better.


Cabaret stage vs. Cabaret film

The film eliminated the two main characters (as well as the six songs they sang): Frau Schneider runs a boarding house, and Herr Schultz is a greengrocer. They fall in love, but a brick is thrown through the window of their engagement party, and she calls it off. Her pragmatic take on the situation is that by marrying a jew in Germany's current culture could result in her losing her livelihood.

The film retained only the songs that take place as entertainment in the club, but by removing the main plot line, all of the metaphors those songs represent are lost - those songs are a commentary on what is happening OUTSIDE of the club.

Yeah, the film is well loved, as is Liza, but the stage version was just as successful as the film version.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

http://www.musicals101.com/index.html

*MUSICALS 101*.
This website has a rather extensive overview, useful if you're unfamiliar with Musical Theatre.

There's a detailed history of *stage musicals* from ancient times to the present, screen musicals from 1927 to the present, and even a catalog of television musicals from the 1940s to the present.


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## QuietGuy (Mar 1, 2014)

I love musicals. i learned to write melody by listening closely to Rodgers & Hart, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Lerner and Loewe. This was around 1970 when I finally started to compose, and by then Sondheim was having his first success with Company.

Of the Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals, I like South Pacific, and The Sound of Music best. I like all of Sondheim's shows, especially Sweeney Todd. Les Mis is another favorite of mine. Kurt Weill's Street Scene is another ....

I think I missed my calling!


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

pianozach said:


> Cabaret stage vs. Cabaret film
> 
> The film eliminated the two main characters (as well as the six songs they sang): Frau Schneider runs a boarding house, and Herr Schultz is a greengrocer. They fall in love, but a brick is thrown through the window of their engagement party, and she calls it off. Her pragmatic take on the situation is that by marrying a jew in Germany's current culture could result in her losing her livelihood.
> 
> ...


Here's an article on Jean Ross, the model for Sally Bowles. She was a lot more than a nightclub singer.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

alexander13j said:


> I can totally agree with you. Shakespeare is a true genius, and he knew for sure how to write poetry in a way, which would everyone love and be amazed. I've recently could find pretty nice article of shakespeare facts and what exactly helped him to be one of the most famous writers of the world.


Great first post, welcome.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

A show I liked that has not been mentioned is "Next to Normal."


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Three that I can see again and again

Gypsy

Cabaret

A Little Night Music


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

consuono said:


> _The Qur'an: The Musical_ oughta be a riot too. I wonder when that one will premiere...


There was a short-lived (it closed after three performances) musical called OH BROTHER!, based loosely on William Shakespeare's "The Comedy of Errors" and the comedies of Plautus. The advertising byline was "Comedy breaks out in the Middle East!"

It featured a dancing camel, and female romantic lead named Fatatatatatima.

OH, BROTHER! takes place during a revolution in an oil rich Middle Eastern country on the Persian Gulf in a quaint resort town where its populace of merchants and revolutionaries mix Eastern tradition with Western consumerism. Into this volatile environment unwittingly stumbles a sweet old American named Lew. He is immediately surrounded by revolutionaries demanding he explain his presence.

Lew tells this story:

Years ago, travelling in the Middle East with his wife, Lillian, she gave birth to identical twin boys. At the same time a dear black woman also gave birth to identical twin boys, but she died. Lew and Lillian adopted the orphaned twin boys to raise as brothers to their own. When Lillian was well they booked separate flights for home, separate flights to lessen the chance an air disaster might again orphan any of their infant sons. Each parent took one twin from each set and departed for home. Disaster struck! The plane on which Lillian and her two charges were flying was hijacked to Iraq. Lew tried to find them, but he never saw Lillian or the two boys again. When Lew's two boys grew to manhood, curious about their lost twins they prevailed upon old Lew to let them search the world to find them. Lew consented. That was two years ago. Now they are lost and he is searching for them.

It b*mbed.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Handelian said:


> I saw the film of Cats. Everyone reckoned it was awful but I enjoyed it.


So did I. I always think, as long as I enjoy myself. let them talk .


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Guest002 said:


> I've only ever attended one musical: Les Miserables in Sydney. Can't remember what gave me the idea to go, except that the theatre was just over the road from where I worked to make Sydney electronic train ticketing function properly.
> 
> Anyway. Maybe it was the production. Maybe it was the name of the work. But by God, what a thoroughly awful, miserable experience it was. I sat there within the first five minutes wishing I had brought ear plugs: the *VOLUME*!!!!!!
> 
> ...


I saw _Caroline or Change_ on Broadway this fall. The volume was turned up so high I missed almost half the lyrics. Critics raved, but I'll never know.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

pianozach said:


> There are plenty of musicals, both serious and funny, that draw upon religious sources. But the Abrahamic-based religions are in the majority. It also depends on how you classify them as well. For instance, there are many shows that lean heavily on cultural Judaism (that is, shows that illuminate the Jewish experience), and not so many religiously Jewish. I can mostly speak only to musicals, but there's a few non-musicals that come to mind.
> 
> And naturally, shows based on stories in the Old Testament tend to overlap into judaism, as they are pre-Christian.
> 
> ...


Don't forget _Into the Light_, a musical about the Shroud of Turin. Starred Dean Jones ad closed in a week. I saw it, and that's six days longer than it deserved.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

pianozach said:


> There are plenty of musicals, both serious and funny, that draw upon religious sources. But the Abrahamic-based religions are in the majority. It also depends on how you classify them as well. For instance, there are many shows that lean heavily on cultural Judaism (that is, shows that illuminate the Jewish experience), and not so many religiously Jewish. I can mostly speak only to musicals, but there's a few non-musicals that come to mind.
> 
> And naturally, shows based on stories in the Old Testament tend to overlap into judaism, as they are pre-Christian.
> 
> ...





jegreenwood said:


> Don't forget _Into the Light_, a musical about the Shroud of Turin. Starred Dean Jones ad closed in a week. I saw it, and that's six days longer than it deserved.


Ah, yes indeed, there are more.

One I missed, as I'm just not up on Rap and Hip Hop culture is *Altar Boyz* (2007), about a Christian boy band. Their names are Matthew, Mark, Luke, Juan, and… Abraham.

There's also *My Mother's Italian, My Father's Jewish, and I'm in Therapy! * If you like Jewish bathroom humor, here's the show for you.

And of course, there are plenty of shows based on some of the other Bible stories, like Camille Saint-Saëns' 19th-century opera *Samson and Delilah*.

And there's the 2004 *The Ten Commandments: The Musical*.

And I hear that the film *The Prince of Egypt* has been adapted into a stage musical.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

pianozach said:


> Ah, yes indeed, there are more.
> 
> One I missed, as I'm just not up on Rap and Hip Hop culture is *Altar Boyz* (2007), about a Christian boy band. Their names are Matthew, Mark, Luke, Juan, and… Abraham.
> 
> ...


By the way, _Caroline or Change_, which I mentioned above is about a Jewish family in Louisiana and their black maid circa 1960s. Book and lyrics by Tony Kushner, inspired by his own childhood.

I couldn't begin to count the number of non-musicals that in some way or another have Jewish themes or elements.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm not really a fan of musicals, with one major exception, that being, "West Side Story". And that one, I really love!

In fact, I just saw the new Spielberg version last weekend, and it was extremely well done. At least as good as the 1961 version.

There are others I don't mind watching, but they really don't all that much for me.

Big Shakespeare fan! Also like: Tennessee Williams, Arthur Miller, Albee, Mamet.


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2021)

jegreenwood said:


> By the way, _Caroline or Change_, which I mentioned above is about a Jewish family in Louisiana and their black maid circa 1960s. Book and lyrics by Tony Kushner, inspired by his own childhood.
> 
> I couldn't begin to count the number of non-musicals that in some way or another have Jewish themes or elements.


Starting right back with the Marx Brothers, at the start of the sound era. The Jewish schtick is on display here:


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Simon Moon said:


> I'm not really a fan of musicals, with one major exception, that being, "West Side Story". And that one, I really love!
> In fact, I just saw the new Spielberg version last weekend, and it was extremely well done. At least as good as the 1961 version.


Yup, the new one is very good, I like it better than the '61 version....my favorite is the actual stage show, with the original order of music, etc....of course, I've played it a million times....still, the new one is very fine, definitely recommended.

There are others I don't mind watching, but they really don't all that much for me.

Big Shakespeare fan! Also like: Tennessee Williams, Arthur Miller, Albee, Mamet.[/QUOTE]


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Some shows by *Anthony Newley* (book) and *Leslie Bricusse* (music/lyrics) (who just died this past October):

* Stop the World - I Want to Get Off

The Roar of the Greasepaint - The Smell of the Crowd

Doctor Doolittle*


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> Some shows by *Anthony Newley* (book) and *Leslie Bricusse* (music/lyrics) (who just died this past October):
> 
> * Stop the World - I Want to Get Off
> 
> ...


Bricusse and Newley are generally credited as co-authors of book, music, and lyrics for _Stop the World_ and _Roar of the Greasepaint_. And of course Newley starred in both of them. Not sure who wrote _Doolittle_.

Did you know the recent successful off-Broadway revival of _Fiddler_ was in Yiddish?

For more on the Jewish influence, see if you can track this program down.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/broadway-musicals-a-jewish-legacy-about-the-film/1476/


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2021)

jegreenwood said:


> Bricusse and Newley are generally credited as co-authors of book, music, and lyrics for _Stop the World_ and _Roar of the Greasepaint_.


I was never fond of those musicals, finding them generally shouty.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

jegreenwood said:


> Bricusse and Newley are generally credited as co-authors of book, music, and lyrics for _Stop the World_ and _Roar of the Greasepaint_. And of course Newley starred in both of them. *Not sure who wrote Doolittle.*
> 
> Did you know the recent successful off-Broadway revival of _Fiddler_ was in Yiddish?
> 
> ...


The music, lyrics AND book for the 1998 musical Doctor Doolittle are all credited to Leslie Bricusse. Of course, it's based on the 1967 film AND the 1920s children's stories by Hugh Lofting.

That 1967 film has a screenplay by Bricusse, while the music is credited to Bricusse, Lionel Newman, and Alexander Courage. Alan Jay Lerner and André Previn were hired by producer Arthur P. Jacobs to write the songs, lyrics, and screenplay, but Lerner was fired after procrastinating for over a year in composing songs for the project. He can count himself lucky, as the production was beset with all sorts of problems, most notable of which were the many demands of star Rex Harrison (which included insisting that Sammy Davis Jr be fired, as he wasn't a "real actor".).


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Seen and heard many, including a Boston run-out of the original My Fair Lady when I was in 4th grade -- which in subsequent years, I have fund obnoxiously misogynistic. A more recent lesser known musical with terrific music is the adaptation of A Secret Garden. At the risk of sounding weird, one of the best film musicals is Mary Poppins. Chicago is good, too -- and more traditional. It also must have been an editing nightmare.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> Bricusse and Newley are generally credited as co-authors of book, music, and lyrics for _Stop the World_ and _Roar of the Greasepaint_. And of course Newley starred in both of them. Not sure who wrote _Doolittle_.


_Doctor Doolittle_ originally came out in 1967.

"It was adapted by Leslie Bricusse from the novel series by Hugh Lofting. The screenplay primarily fuses three of the books, The Story of Doctor Dolittle (1920), The Voyages of Doctor Dolittle (1922), and Doctor Dolittle's Circus (1924)." (Wikipedia)


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Christabel said:


> I was never fond of those musicals, finding them generally shouty.


Never saw either of them. I thought there were some good songs I the first two. I do like to surprise fans of Nina Simone and Michael Buble when I tell them the source of "Feeling Good."


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

_Doctor Doolittle_ originally came out in 1967.

"It was adapted by Leslie Bricusse from the novel series by Hugh Lofting. The screenplay primarily fuses three of the books, The Story of Doctor Dolittle (1920), The Voyages of Doctor Dolittle (1922), and Doctor Dolittle's Circus (1924)." (Wikipedia)

I remember seeing it when it came out, I was 15, and loved the music. The song "When I Look in Your Eyes" (sung to a seal) was very moving, to me. I watched it this past year, the only other time, and it still held up. I haven't seen the Eddie Murphy version.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

MarkW said:


> Seen and heard many, including a Boston run-out of the original My Fair Lady when I was in 4th grade -- which in subsequent years, *I have fund obnoxiously misogynistic.* A more recent lesser known musical with terrific music is the adaptation of A Secret Garden. At the risk of sounding weird, one of the best film musicals is Mary Poppins. Chicago is good, too -- and more traditional. It also must have been an editing nightmare.


The recent NYC revival had to address that. In the end, Eliza walked out again.

_My Fair Lady_ was my first Broadway show. I was five. The second was _The Music Man_. That show is being revived with Hugh Jackman as Harold Hill. Previews start next week. It's a hot ticket.

Covid permitting of course.


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## KevinJS (Sep 24, 2021)

Notre Dame de Paris is one of my favourites. Here's the full show:


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

MarkW said:


> Seen and heard many, including a Boston run-out of the original My Fair Lady when I was in 4th grade -- which in subsequent years, I have fund obnoxiously misogynistic.


I disagree 100%. This kind of attitude is anachronistic and flawed, IMO. Both the original Shaw play and MFL are great theatrical works, and I wouldn't change a thing. I can't help but feel there's too much of this revisionist impulse involved.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

MarkW said:


> Seen and heard many, including a Boston run-out of the original My Fair Lady when I was in 4th grade -- which in subsequent years, I have fund obnoxiously misogynistic. A more recent lesser known musical with terrific music is the adaptation of A Secret Garden. At the risk of sounding weird, one of the best film musicals is Mary Poppins. Chicago is good, too -- and more traditional. It also must have been an editing nightmare.


Yeah, *My Fair Lady* is a bit misogynistic, although back when it was written those misogynistic things were perfectly acceptable. And no one batted an eye that two "bachelors" were living together.

Not familiar with *Mary Poppins*.

*Chicago* is a real gem. In a way it's formatted quite like the stage version of *Cabaret*, where all the songs are performed as though they're vaudeville songs, and reflective of the real life action.

*The Secret Garden* is an extraordinary musical treat. FUN FACTS: The music was from Lucy Simon, the older sister of pop singer/songwriter Carly Simon. She didn't write another musical for 15 years.


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> I disagree 100%. This kind of attitude is anachronistic and flawed, IMO. Both the original Shaw play and MFL are great theatrical works, and I wouldn't change a thing. I can't help but feel there's too much of this revisionist impulse involved.


Couldn't agree with you more on this!! Like my revolting brother-in-law who doesn't like Gigi because he says it's about pedophiles.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Christabel said:


> Couldn't agree with you more on this!! Like my revolting brother-in-law who doesn't like Gigi because he says it's about pedophiles.


I wasn't saying it's not a terrific musical -- just that when I saw the movie around 2000 I was more embarrassed than I thought I'd be.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Lucille Ball Songs~ Mame (1974)

I love this, the whole movie is a pleasure watching.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Rogerx said:


> Lucille Ball Songs~ Mame (1974)
> 
> I love this, the whole movie is a pleasure watching.


You're likely in the minority opinion with MAME. While there is some interesting dancing, and some nice tunes and a decent score, most folks tend to think that Ball was awful as the title character. Most critics and watchers felt that Ball was horribly miscast, not only NOT a singer at 63 years old, but not really a dramatic actress either.

But, honestly, if you love it, that's great. Bea Arthur and Robert Preston were pretty good, and it was certainly a technicolor extravaganza.

It's just so rare when I hear that someone loves this film.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

pianozach said:


> You're likely in the minority opinion with MAME. While there is some interesting dancing, and some nice tunes and a decent score, most folks tend to think that Ball was awful as the title character. Most critics and watchers felt that Ball was horribly miscast, not only NOT a singer at 63 years old, but not really a dramatic actress either.
> 
> But, honestly, if you love it, that's great. Bea Arthur and Robert Preston were pretty good, and it was certainly a technicolor extravaganza.
> 
> It's just so rare when I hear that someone loves this film.


I hear the same thing when I say I like :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Slipper_and_the_Rose

I don't care really. I never force people that they must like what I say. 
( As long nobody force their taste upon me)


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> I disagree 100%. This kind of attitude is anachronistic and flawed, IMO. Both the original Shaw play and MFL are great theatrical works, and I wouldn't change a thing.


Yes. I fail to understand how a play that very obviously makes savage fun about the classist and sexist stances of the men/mainstream society and where the most sympathetic and pluckiest character is a lower class girl who gets the better of the pedantic upper middle class professor etc. (and the other men are the loud buffoons, like the old Dolittle or dreamy wimps like the guy who sings On the street where you live). If anything, the play is sexist/misandric towards its men who are mostly frigid pedants or lecherous drunks...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

On another thread _West Side Story_ came under similar criticism concerning its negative ethnic stereotyping. But even though some portrayals might upset current sensibilities, they are based in fact. It was originally to be called _East Side Story_.

_West Side Story_ was originally to have treated hostilities between Catholic and Jewish gangs, on the Lower East Side. But a Catholic-Jewish gang war? It sounded far-fetched and unrealistic. Laurents, and his partners, gave up on the idea until several years later while on the coast read newspaper accounts of turf fighting between white and Latin gangs in Los Angeles. Suddenly, a modern retelling of the war between Shakespeare's Capulet and Montague clans seemed naturalistic. (Ethan Mordden. _On Sondheim: An Opinionated Guide_)

I'm just saying that the characterizations for WSS did not come out of nowhere.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I never had the impression that the Puertoricans were portrayed more violent or in any other way worse than the Jets (who are Italians and Polacks, not quite WASP either). I am not even sure if this scene was changed or exaggerated in the movie but I think the worst behavior is the Jets treating Anita in that café. Overall it's less ethnic stereotyping (the Sharks have a pretty good ironic stance about their situation) that quite realist portrayal of 1950s gangs.

I agree that overall it appears much better and more plausible than the original "East side story" idea.

One problem of recent criticism and exaggerated sensitivities is that they fail to see how sharp the critiques of these older plays/operas/books were. If we do have less racist and more equal circumstances today, it's works like Huckleberry Finn, West Side story etc. that helped bringing this about.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Kreisler jr said:


> One problem of recent criticism and exaggerated sensitivities is that they fail to see how sharp the critiques of these older plays/operas/books were. If we do have less racist and more equal circumstances today, it's works like Huckleberry Finn, West Side story etc. that helped bringing this about.


"South Pacific" dealt with the whole idea of racism quite directly - in 1949 ["You've Got to be Carefully Taught"]....Rodgers and Hammerstein addressed the issue specifically...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> "South Pacific" dealt with the whole idea of racism quite directly - in 1949 ["You've Got to be Carefully Taught"]....Rodgers and Hammerstein addressed the issue specifically...


And what is your point? That every musical should have a political message directly expressed?

I have never felt that WSS was insensitive to any issues of racism. The show takes place in a milieu of competing ethnic gang behavior, as well as the phenomenon of teen delinquency that a number of books, movies, and music, addressed during the 50s.

We live in a complex society with a number of different ethnic groups and races living in close proximity - especially in NYC. For the entire history of the United State these issues have evolved and relations between the races and nationalities have ebbed and flowed, up and down. WSS is a snapshot of a time period and locale and slice of society - nothing more.

I find it superficial and baseless to complain about a show from the mid-50s as viewed through the current "me-too" "cancel culture" "safe zone" "trigger" prism.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

SanAntone said:


> And what is your point? That every musical should have a political message directly expressed?


No, not at all. I was simply observing that other shows from that period addressed the issue by way of their plots....really, any story involving people is very likely going to deal with the issue - whether it's racism, or "them v. us", "our kind against their kind" or any other basis for difference and conflict. I don't detect any special "favoritism" for one side against the other in the shows mentioned, but that's just my observation....


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> No, not at all. I was simply observing that other shows from that period addressed the issue by way of their plots....really, any story involving people is very likely going to deal with the issue - whether it's racism, or "them v. us", "our kind against their kind" or any other basis for difference and conflict. I don't detect any special "favoritism" for one side against the other in the shows mentioned, but that's just my observation....


_South Pacific_ was at least a decade before WSS. But I take your point. Oscar Hammerstein II was an active liberal humanist with a need to express that point of view in his lyrics.

And to some extent WSS also deals with the issue of teen gang psychology, albeit in a humorous fashion in the song "Dear Officer Krupke", and the immigrant experience in "America". It should also be pointed out that the Jets were primarily a Polish group of teens - immigrants as well, but a wave or two before the Puerto Ricans.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> On another thread _West Side Story_ came under similar criticism concerning its negative ethnic stereotyping. But even though some portrayals might upset current sensibilities, they are based in fact. It was originally to be called _East Side Story_.
> 
> _West Side Story_ was originally to have treated hostilities between Catholic and Jewish gangs, on the Lower East Side. But a Catholic-Jewish gang war? It sounded far-fetched and unrealistic. Laurents, and his partners, gave up on the idea until several years later while on the coast read newspaper accounts of turf fighting between white and Latin gangs in Los Angeles. Suddenly, a modern retelling of the war between Shakespeare's Capulet and Montague clans seemed naturalistic. (Ethan Mordden. _On Sondheim: An Opinionated Guide_)
> 
> I'm just saying that the characterizations for WSS did not come out of nowhere.


Totally agree with these comments and, yet, there was no sense of a lecture or moralizing implicit in "West Side Story" (which was not the case in "South Pacific"). The audience was allowed to decide for itself on these matters, just as it did in the time of Shakespeare. Regarding "The King and I", "Oklahoma", "Carousel" or "Sound of Music" when R&H touched on sensitive issues like racism, fascism, violence and domestic violence, they expected their audiences to make moral judgments.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> I never had the impression that the Puertoricans were portrayed more violent or in any other way worse than the Jets (who are Italians and Polacks, not quite WASP either). I am not even sure if this scene was changed or exaggerated in the movie but I think *the worst behavior is the Jets treating Anita in that café.* Overall it's less ethnic stereotyping (the Sharks have a pretty good ironic stance about their situation) that quite realist portrayal of 1950s gangs.
> 
> I agree that overall it appears much better and more plausible than the original "East side story" idea.
> 
> One problem of recent criticism and exaggerated sensitivities is that they fail to see how sharp the critiques of these older plays/operas/books were. If we do have less racist and more equal circumstances today, it's works like Huckleberry Finn, West Side story etc. that helped bringing this about.


This is a common social psychological thing we humans do ("mob mentality"). We'll get ourselves whipped up into a such a frenzy that we all engage in behavior we KNOW is brutal and unacceptable. _[In fact, you can just Fast Forward to January 2021, and see where how group of people just "being tough" can suddenly escalate into a mob, and get completely out of hand.]_

I've been involved in many many productions of *West Side Story*, and the Anita/rape scene has always been handled in a sensitive and condemnatory way. At the end the Jets all grab Baby John as if to force him to rape Anita, and Baby John is horrified, embarrassed, and ends up crying that his friends would do this, and make him the tool of their animalistic behavior.

And they don't stop themselves; it's the adult in the room, *Doc*. *Doc* (a cross between Jiminy Cricket and Droopy Dog) stops them, and gives them a very short and succinct lecture. The Jets feel some remorse, but it's too late, the damage is done, and that's when she blurts out, in her anger, that Chino has killed Anita (which he hasn't). That is why Tony runs out screaming for Chino to kill HIM as well.

Tony's buddies betrayed Tony when they attacked Anita, who was only there to deliver a message from Maria to Tony. It's the 2nd most important plot point in the play.

Chino _DOES_ want to kill Tony, because Tony [accidentally] killed Bernardo for killing Riff. But Tony deliberately makes himself a target, and Chino obliges his wish to die, just as Maria runs out onto the playground to witness the murder of the only man she's ever loved.

Maria takes the gun from a mortified Chino, and she threatens them all with it . She pointedly asks Chino how many bullets are left in the gun (_"How many bullets are left, Chino? Enough for you? And you, and you, and you?"_); she wants to know how many people she can kill, and still have a bullet left for herself.

Unlike Romeo and Juliet, she does _*not*_ kill herself. But she's dead _*inside*_ now, so it's almost as if she _had_ committed suicide.

*West Side Story* is not racist. The story is universal, whether it's the Montagues vs. the Capulets, the Catholics vs. the Jews, or the Jets vs. the Sharks. It could be the cops vs. the coal miners, it applies to any two groups that despise each other. This could easily be reset in 1980s L.A. with the Bloods vs. the Crips.

Speaking of which - Here's a short 24 minute musical parody musical comedy titled *WEST BANK STORY*, about David, an *Israeli* soldier, and Fatima, a *Palestinian* fast food cashier - an unlikely couple who fall in love amidst the animosity of their families' dueling falafel stands in the West Bank,.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

A few thoughts on the above posts. These days Broadway is reconsidering almost every revived musical. In addition to Eliza walking out on Higgins in the final moments of _My Fair Lady_, there was criticism of _Kiss Me, Kate_ and _Carousel_, which both have scenes where the male protagonist strikes a woman. The most recent revivals of _How to Succeed_ and _Promises, Promises_ (based on Billie Wilder's _The Apartment_), both from a decade or so ago, raised complaints about sexual attitudes. As to racial issues, I refer you to this web site and the rather long text, which you can download and read.

I am not active in the theater, but for 20 years I have sat on the Board of a not-for-profit theater company, and to put it simply, the "rules" have changed. Perhaps the best example of this is the current revival of _Caroline, or Change_. This show, an unvarnished look at a Jewish family with a black maid in Louisiana in the early 60s, was a modest success d'estime in 2004. It transferred from The Public Theater to Broadway, where it closed after several months. The new production, which transferred from London to NYC this fall got spectacular reviews in both cities.

My theater company will take race head on in a new musical inspired by the Harlem Renaissance novel _Black No More_. The premise of the story is that a black scientist has developed a process to turn black skin white. Work started about five years ago, a very different era. The music, lyrics, and choreography are by black artists; the director is the white artistic director of our company. That alone has provoked criticism. We expect more.

Edit I see the link is to a shorter document. The original ran over 20 pages.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> A few thoughts on the above posts. These days Broadway is reconsidering almost every revived musical. In addition to Eliza walking out on Higgins in the final moments of _My Fair Lady_, there was criticism of _Kiss Me, Kate_ and _Carousel_, which both have scenes where the male protagonist strikes a woman. The most recent revivals of _How to Succeed_ and _Promises, Promises_ (based on Billie Wilder's _The Apartment_), both from a decade or so ago, raised complaints about sexual attitudes. As to racial issues, I refer you to this web site and the rather long text, which you can download and read.
> 
> I am not active in the theater, but for 20 years I have sat on the Board of a not-for-profit theater company, and to put it simply, the "rules" have changed. Perhaps the best example of this is the current revival of _Caroline, or Change_. This show, an unvarnished look at a Jewish family with a black maid in Louisiana in the early 60s, was a modest success d'estime in 2004. It transferred from The Public Theater to Broadway, where it closed after several months. The new production, which transferred from London to NYC this fall got spectacular reviews in both cities.
> 
> ...


While I take your post at face value and do not doubt anything you write - the question is not that attitudes have changed, the question is IMO has this change resulted in good decisions? Most of the time my response is "no."

The decisions seem overly influenced by PC concerns, and can end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Thankfully I don't have to involve myself with these newer productions, I have in my personal library plenty of recordings and DVDs of shows and need not watch a revival of a great show.

The problem is that because of economics it is hard for new original shows to get on Broadway and revivals have become so common. And, the new zeitgeist has touched every aspect of our lives - much to my chagrin. I will turn 70 this week and have seen it happen and cannot but feel that those making these decisions have lost the ability to think critically.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> While I take your post at face value and do not doubt anything you write - the question is not that attitudes have changed, the question is IMO has this change resulted in good decisions? Most of the time my response is "no."
> 
> The decisions seem overly influenced by PC concerns, and can end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
> 
> ...


Bravo. It takes a strong soul to swim against the tide as you have. The motivation behind these 'revisions' is probably the belief that they will make a difference to audiences who attend them; that they'll increase because of 'relevance' or 'legitimacy', when I think the reverse is probably more likely.

As with Byron I want my 'sermons and soda-water the day after', not in the theatre and particularly not with beloved classics. And where does this revisionism start and end? Let's go back to the baroque period and the opera 'Pygmalion' - just as one example - based on Ovid's "Pygmalion and the Statue" from "Metamorphosis"; that's problematic right there. The idea of women solely as seductive agents who have power over men, in this case a sculptor who falls in love with his creation (narcissism). This statue has devastating 'control' over the sculptor and is responsible by virtue of her feminine beauty for the anguish and suffering endured by him. This is a curious statue; completely inert though animated only in the mind of its creator as some kind of temptress. Same idea in any novel, play or opera about a 'make-over' where the woman is merely the creation of the male imagination and made to an image of perfection. Surely an age-old narrative trope but how is this acceptable today?

And I'm thinking of Mary Poppins and "A Spoonful of Sugar"; surely the scolds don't want sugar fetishized because of the problem of obesity!!??

With the exception of direct violence, I think we need to leave our theatrical productions alone. Just modernise them by setting and costume, and little else. Otherwise, don't put them on at all.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Please note that I purposely did not express an opinion on these issues.

As for _My Fair Lady_, please recall that Shaw did not imagine Higgins and Eliza reuniting at the end. He wrote that he could not conceive of a less happy ending.

And for those troubled by the revisions in Spielberg's WSS, I refer you to the 2020 Broadway mounting by Ivo Van Hove (which closed due to COVID). Google did not lead me to a good video (and I did not see it). So a review will have to suffice. I don't believe this one is behind a paywall.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2020/3/11/21166360/west-side-story-review-broadway-ivo-van-hove


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

SanAntone said:


> On another thread _West Side Story_ came under similar criticism concerning its negative ethnic stereotyping. But even though some portrayals might upset current sensibilities, they are based in fact. It was originally to be called _East Side Story_.
> 
> _West Side Story_ was originally to have treated hostilities between Catholic and Jewish gangs, on the Lower East Side. But a Catholic-Jewish gang war? It sounded far-fetched and unrealistic. Laurents, and his partners, gave up on the idea until several years later while on the coast read newspaper accounts of turf fighting between white and Latin gangs in Los Angeles. Suddenly, a modern retelling of the war between Shakespeare's Capulet and Montague clans seemed naturalistic. (Ethan Mordden. _On Sondheim: An Opinionated Guide_)
> 
> I'm just saying that the characterizations for WSS did not come out of nowhere.


Apparently, Bernstein began writing music for _East Side Story_, which explains the opening sound of the score, an imitation of the Jewish shofar (ram's horn) blast, Tekiah g'dolah. A conflict between a Jewish gang and a Christian gang makes sense with the opening musical themes being (1) the Tekiah g'dolah, and (2) the familiar Gregorian _Dies Irae_ (Day of Wrath). We have the call to attention and then the heralding of a day of wrath.











It seems that after laying down these two powerful guiding themes, the composer and producers decided to change to a Latino gang, possibly because Bernstein felt that Latin music would prove more interesting to score for this musical. In any case, the two conflicting gangs became Latino v. non-Latino "American". True, prejudices abound.

The original _Romeo and Juliet_ is, of course, about the conflict between Catholics and Protestants in Shakespeare's contemporary Elizabethan England. "Two households both alike in dignity." Neither the C. nor the P. had much dignity when it came to fighting and persecuting and torturing and burning folks alive. "From ancient grudge break to new mutiny." The religious conflict remained fresh in Shakespeare's day, and such conflicts continue today, pointing out a universalism to Shakespeare's plot, conveniently borrowed for _West Side Story_.

The opening line (following the Prologue sonnet) of _Romeo and Juliet_ is quite intriguing, and often cut from performances. The name "Gregory" is invoked, followed by the line, "We'll not carry coals."

_Enter SAMPSON and GREGORY, of the house of Capulet..._
*SAMPSON:* Gregory, o' my word, we'll not carry coals.
*GREGORY:* No, for then we should be colliers.
*SAMPSON:* I mean, an we be in choler, we'll draw.
*GREGORY:* Ay, while you live, draw your neck out o' the collar.

Believed to have been written between 1591 and 1595, the play was first published in a quarto version in 1597. The main plot derives from _The Tragicall Historye of Romeus and Juliet_, a narrative poem by Arthur Brooke, first published in 1562. The plot of the Brooke poem is remarkably similar to Shakespeare's version, but neither Sampson nor Gregory make an appearance in the earlier poem.

Sampson, whose name is never spoken in Shakespeare's script as we have it (perhaps in an early version it was?) conjures up the Biblical hero betrayed by love. Indeed, Shakespeare's play (and _West Side Story_) are both on that universal theme of betrayal by love. But the name "Gregory" _is_ mentioned, and it is the first spoken word of the play (aside from the Prologue). "Gregory".

What would that name bring to mind in the original Elizabethan age audience who witnessed the play? In 1590, Niccolò Sfondrato was elected Pope and took the name Pope Gregory XIV. His brief, 10 month pontificate was marked by vigorous intervention in favor of the Catholic party in the French Wars of Religion. Even moreso, however, was the anti-Protestant effects of the previous Pope Gregory, this one the XIII (with the 5 year term of Pope Urban between the two Gregorys), on the minds of the English populace. Reactions against the anti-Protestant persecutions of the popes led to Queen Elizabeth's own persecutions (and hanging, draw and quartering, and disembowling) Catholic priests. Among these was the execution of priests who had dared to distribute rosary beads (which were made of black beads, such as jet coal). England of the late 1580s and early 1590s was one rife with Catholic and Protestant blood. Dare not to "carry coals", rosary beads, for such "colliers" (coal carriers) with "collars" (Catholic church neck garb) will "be in collar", a neck noose. (Remember that the spelling of words in a play script means little; it is how the words are _heard_ by the audience that matters.)

At the very start of _Romeo and Juliet_, Shakespeare turns our attention to a current and universal source of conflict. Bernstein's opening music for _West Side Story_ reminds us that the conflict is still very much alive. And these stories will continue to be relevant as long as such factors as religious prejudice and enmity govern men's souls.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2021)

jegreenwood said:


> Please note that I purposely did not express an opinion on these issues.
> 
> As for _My Fair Lady_, please recall that Shaw did not imagine Higgins and Eliza reuniting at the end. He wrote that he could not conceive of a less happy ending.
> 
> ...


Quite right; you expressed no opinion and I didn't mean to imply that you did. I was talking about the zeitgeist more generally.

Do people here know the background with "My Fair Lady" and indeed "Pygmalion"? Shaw wouldn't have a bar of his play turned into film so the team for MFL waited until he'd died in 1950 to consider adapting his play to the screen in a musical. The original play (which I taught for our highest level English course, matriculation level, as part of a unit called "Transformations") contained a lengthy, verbose and self-serving postlude Shaw tacked on because he loathed the idea that his play had morphed into a romance. Bernard Shaw insisted that the play was nothing of the kind, but this still didn't stop theatre producers/directors interpreting it that way!! This itself raised a whole new paradigm for exploration; whom do you believe - the tale or the teller?

In my unit for "Transformations: the Make-over" I taught the students texts which all examined from a slightly different angle men who controlled women by shaping them into the image of womanhood that they wanted. "Pygmalion and the Statue" from Ovid's 'Metamorphosis'/Rameau's opera "Pygmalion"/Shaw's play "Pygmalion"/Hitchcock's "Vertigo"/Garry Marshall's "Pretty Woman".

There's lots of revisionism possible in all of the more recent incarnations of that narrative!!!!


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Speaking of _Pretty Woman_






I did not attend.

As to revisionism, remember the creators (or their estates) must give permission. I was quite surprised that the R&H Organization approved the most recent _Oklahoma_, which went on to win the Tony for best revival. I may have posted this before.






This I did see. Some of the changes are pretty radical, but they didn't alter a word. I wish I could find a video of the completely new ballet.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2021)

I couldn't see that video as it's probably not available in Australia.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

_Sweet Charity_: "Where Am I Going?"






On e of my favorite shows. Gwen Verdon.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2021)

I think "Sweet Charity" would be better on the stage than the film, which I didn't like. The scenes with Ricardo Montalban were just silly. And the funky disco stuff with Sammy Davis were so dated. I lost interest in the film and by the end it was a trial. Didn't like John McMartin either!!

Gwen Verdon sings well and it's a great song.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Christabel said:


> I think "Sweet Charity" would be better on the stage than the film, which I didn't like. The scenes with Ricardo Montalban were just silly. And the funky disco stuff with Sammy Davis were so dated. I lost interest in the film and by the end it was a trial. Didn't like John McMartin either!!
> 
> Gwen Verdon sings well and it's a great song.


I worked on a stage production of it and it was a great experience; didn't mind the movie. It has a great score; Cy Coleman has written some really good songs.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> I worked on a stage production of it and it was a great experience; didn't mind the movie. It has a great score; Cy Coleman has written some really good songs.


Would have to agree with that about those songs!! And this is one of my favourites - and so very reminiscent of "West Side Story"!! This woman has a tremendous voice for the theatre; you can hear every word:






Somehow the song also reminds me of "Funny Girl" and the opening number. It's tempo and aspirational theme. Sung by Streisand back in the day when she was at the absolute top of her game, and with *SENSATIONAL orchestration*!! Streisand worked with the great, great director William Wyler!! (Do you think James Cameron pinched some ideas from this sequence for "Titanic"!!??).






Came back to edit to say, Coleman and Styne - yet more fabulously talented Jews who have contributed so much to American Music Theatre!!! Just saying...


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

My off-Broadway theater company took on _Sweet Charity_ about five years ago. It starred two-time Tony winner Sutton Foster. (She is currently on Broadway starring in _The Music Man_ with Hugh Jackman.) It's the only musical revival we've ever done, and it was performed in a 199 seat, three-quarter house. Alas, the only recording I know of is this promotional clip, which fails to do justice to any of the scenes it samples.






In particular, Sutton's "If They Could See Me Now" was absolutely wonderful. (We did not use the Fosse choreography.) Relating back to some above comments, IIRC, Sutton and Leigh Silverman, the director, wanted to modify the ending. They were able to get permission from the writers to do so.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Christabel said:


> . . . .
> Came back to edit to say, Coleman and Styne - yet more fabulously talented Jews who have contributed so much to American Music Theatre!!! Just saying...


Don't forget the lyricist for _Sweet Charity_, Dorothy Fields. Her career stretched from the 20's to the 70's and included such classics as the following:






Edit - it occurs to me Fred and Ginger were not finished with tomatoes and potatoes.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2021)

Dorothy Fields; another incredible, enduring talent!!


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

My favorite musical is Guys and Dolls. While it doesn't get done well very often (especially by Americans these days, sadly), I saw a great production at the National Theater in London in 1982 (at least early on in its long run), starring Bob Hoskins, Ian Charleston, Julia Mckenzie, Julie Covington, David Healy, Jim Carter, and an all around brilliant cast of actors, directed by Richard Eyre. It was a huge hit in London at the time. One of the strengths of Guys & Dolls, and many other American musicals of that era--which tends to get underrated I think--is their wonderful sense of humor (which can be subtly adult humor, but without foul language). Here are some old South Bank Show video clips that give a glimpse of how remarkable the NT production was & how well it worked in the cavernous Olivier Theater (which is shaped like a large toilet bowl that tends to eat up sound & produce 'dead spots' on the stage). It's one of the few productions that I saw during my years in London that didn't seem too small for the Olivier, but instead successfully filled the space,






It was also an important, pioneering production, because prior to that time 'serious' theater companies, such as the National Theater & the Royal Shakespeare Company, for example, didn't do musicals, and when the NT's production of Guys & Dolls became so popular in London, & brought in so much money for the NT, these other companies, like the RSC & the Stratford Festival in Canada, began to reconsider their previous stance on performing musicals, & started to include them in their seasons, with similar critical and box office success.

Another favorite musical of mine is the film of The Music Man, with Robert Preston, Shirley Jones, Buddy Hackett, Hermione Gingold, & a young Ron Howard. I additionally saw an excellent production of The Music Man on stage at the Stratford Festival in 2008. The Festival has done wonderful productions of Oklahoma, Oliver, and South Pacific in the 2000s, as well.






Turning away from the golden age of the American musical, I've long had a soft spot for John Gay's The Beggar's Opera, which is partly a spoof on Handel operas at the time, & therefore is more of a musical than it is an opera. But, like Guys & Dolls, it almost never gets done well.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Josquin13 said:


> Turning away from the golden age of the American musical, I've long had a soft spot for John Gay's The Beggar's Opera, which is partly a spoof on Handel operas at the time, & therefore is more of a musical than it is an opera.


One of my favorite shows is _The Threepenny Opera_ by *Brecht *and *Weill*, based (loosely) on _The Beggar's Opera_. It started out closely following the Gay work but over time and development of the show, more and more of Gay was dropped.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

A sobering thought. The box office failure of “In The Heights” and the (as of today) vastly underperforming new Spielberg West Side Story” compared to the huuuuge big bucks opening of the latest Spider-Man movie. Anything beyond the Marvel comic books characters is dying at the box office. Part of it is Covid but will it get to where a non-comics book character movie can be successful.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2021)

Josquin13 said:


> My favorite musical is Guys and Dolls. While it doesn't get done well very often (especially by Americans these days, sadly), I saw a great production at the National Theater in London in 1982 (at least early on in its long run), starring Bob Hoskins, Ian Charleston, Julia Mckenzie, Julie Covington, David Healy, Jim Carter, and all around brilliant cast of actors, directed by Richard Eyre. It was a huge hit in London at the time. One of the strengths of Guys & Dolls, and many other American musicals of that era--which tends to get underrated I think--is their wonderful sense of humor (which can be subtly adult humor, but without foul language). Here are some old South Bank Show video clips that give a glimpse of how remarkable the NT production was & how well it worked in the cavernous Olivier Theater (which is shaped like a large toilet bowl that tends to eat up sound & produce 'dead spots' on the stage). It's one of the few productions that I saw during my years in London that didn't seem too small for the Olivier, but instead successfully filled the space,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The joke sometimes doing the rounds has been that "The Beggar's Opera" made Gay rich and Rich gay!!!


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

Christabel said:


> The joke sometimes doing the rounds has been that "The Beggar's Opera" made Gay rich and Rich gay!!!


I don't find that humorous. But maybe I am too serious at this exact moment.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Christabel writes, "The joke sometimes doing the rounds has been that "The Beggar's Opera" made Gay rich and Rich gay!!!"

Yes, but that's contemporary to the early 1700s. The joke in London at the time was that the play's tremendous popularity had made its author, John Gay, rich, and its theater director, John Rich, gay.

Similarly amusing is John Gay's tombstone, which he had inscribed with the following words,

Life is a jest, all things show it, 
I thought so once, and now I know it.

SanAntone, 

I've never actually seen the Weill/Brecht The Threepenny Opera. Though I do know it's loosely based on Gay's play. Which is surprising because I know & like Brecht's plays, otherwise. I'll have to put The Threepenny Opera onto my 'to watch' list for 2022. Thanks for mentioning it.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2021)

FrankinUsa said:


> I don't find that humorous. But maybe I am too serious at this exact moment.


Yes you are. It's a very old joke which is a clever play on words.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2021)

Josquin13 said:


> Christabel writes, "The joke sometimes doing the rounds has been that "The Beggar's Opera" made Gay rich and Rich gay!!!"
> 
> Yes, but that's contemporary to the early 1700s. The joke in London at the time was that the play's tremendous popularity had made its author, John Gay, rich, and its theater director, John Rich, gay.
> 
> ...


Love it!!!:tiphat:


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

Christabel said:


> Yes you are. It's a very old joke which is a clever play on words.


Thank you for yours kind reply. It was an expansive view which I failed to see.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2021)

@ *Josquin13*: Here is a great talk about "*The Threepenny Opera*" of Brecht/Weill. And there was a famous film made by GW Pabst in German in 1931 and the director's son talks in this discussion.






Pabst's film used to be available on U-tube but I can't seem to find it.

Edit: it cannot be over-stated about the incredible, experimental and advanced state of German cinema before the Nazi era.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2021)

Here is "Surabaya Johnny" - a song by Weill and Brecht and it's a complete masterpiece: sung here by Lotte Lenya - the wife of Kurt Weill.






This song as no connection to "Driegroschenoper", of course.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

FrankinUsa said:


> I don't find that humorous. But maybe I am too serious at this exact moment.


Have another one on me:cheers:


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

_Guys and Dolls_ - one of Broadway's most beloved shows. I've seen two productions in NYC and a fairly recent one in London (2016). The best known NYC revival was in 1992(?). The New York Times celebrated its return by running a story on its front page. To the best of my memory, the only other time when the Times celebrated fictional characters like that was the death of Hercule Poirot.

_The Music Man_ - as I mentioned in an earlier post a revival with Hugh Jackman and Sutton Foster in the leads started performances this week. It's a hot ticket. I saw it onstage with Robert Preston when I was five - don't remember all that much. I did see a revival in 2000, and I've seen the movie a number of times. It beat out WSS for the Tony Award.

_Threepenny Opera_ - I've seen that twice on stage. There was a particularly good revival in 1976 and a more recent one in the aughts. But _Threepenny_ was responsible for jump-starting the off-Broadway theater world in the 1950's, when it ran for five years at the Theater de Lys (now the Lucille Lortel Theatre). Lotte Lenya was Jenny in that production. It's available on CD. I had that on vinyl but picked up a studio performance in German on CD featuring Ute Lemper. I'm not sure the 1976 production was ever released on CD, but I see it is available to stream.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

jegreenwood said:


> _Guys and Dolls_ - one of Broadway's most beloved shows. I've seen two productions in NYC and a fairly recent one in London (2016). The best known NYC revival was in 1992(?). The New York Times celebrated its return by running a story on its front page. To the best of my memory, the only other time when the Times celebrated fictional characters like that was the death of Hercule Poirot.
> 
> _The Music Man_ - as I mentioned in an earlier post a revival with Hugh Jackman and Sutton Foster in the leads started performances this week. It's a hot ticket. I saw it onstage with Robert Preston when I was five - don't remember all that much. I did see a revival in 2000, and I've seen the movie a number of times. It beat out WSS for the Tony Award.
> 
> _Threepenny Opera_ - I've seen that twice on stage. There was a particularly good revival in 1976 and a more recent one in the aughts. But _Threepenny_ was responsible for jump-starting the off-Broadway theater world in the 1950's, when it ran for five years at the Theater de Lys (now the Lucille Lortel Theatre). Lotte Lenya was Jenny in that production. It's available on CD. I had that on vinyl but picked up a studio performance in German on CD featuring Ute Lemper. I'm not sure the 1976 production was ever released on CD, but I see it is available to stream.


*Guys & Dolls*
I've been involved in the musical end of this show several times, although I've never actually been onstage as actor for this. But my mom was, way back in the early 1960s (as a Hot Box Girl), and again in the 1990s (as Gen. Cartwright).

My second to last involvement with this show was when I was called in to create a tag for SIT DOWN YOU'RE ROCKIN' THE BOAT for a local production. I basically looped sections already written and folded in characters singing new harmonies and some occasional counter point.

Last month that same song appeared in the MTI revue show I MDd (called "All Together Now"). I got to conduct the 23-pc orchestra for that production.

*The Music Man*
I actually played Ewart Dunlop (the lead voice in the Barbershop Quartet) back in the very early 1980s. This lead to a lifelong association with BBSQ singing, included being in a pro BBSQ. We eventually settled on calling ourselves ARTISTIC DIFFERENCES - AN INTERESTING BARBERSHOP QUARTET, although we'd cycled through various names every couple of months as a joke: The Parkmoors, Four On The Floor, Fourplay, and several others.

*The Threepenny Opera*
I was MD and played/sang the part of Street Singer, who opens the show with "The Ballad of Mack the Knife". Our tiny pit band consisted of me on piano, an electric bass player, and a teenaged accordionist.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2021)

I love this - and it's so Jewish in linguistic cadence and accent!!


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2021)

John Wilson and his Orchestra at the 2012 Proms presenting the music of Broadway:


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2021)

Here's a very old recording of George Gershwin playing his "*My One and Only*", supporting by some pictures of George - including his own painting and with some famous faces!! Listen to George's muscular playing where he fills in all the details. How I adore this music; Gershwin was one of a kind and I've adored him since I was 15. Non-stop. One of the last pictures is of George talking to Kay Swift - a girlfriend at the time. Look at the way he's looking at her; he's making her seem like the most important person in the room!! That's real charisma, right there. When Kay finally married (she grew tired of waiting to marry bachelor George) he is reported to have said, "Gee: if I wasn't so busy I'd probably be upset"!!!!


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Christabel said:


> Here's a very old recording of George Gershwin playing his "*My One and Only*", supporting by some pictures of George - including his own painting and with some famous faces!! Listen to George's muscular playing where he fills in all the details. How I adore this music; Gershwin was one of a kind and I've adored him since I was 15. Non-stop. One of the last pictures is of George talking to Kay Swift - a girlfriend at the time. Look at the way he's looking at her; he's making her seem like the most important person in the room!! That's real charisma, right there. When Kay finally married (she grew tired of waiting to marry bachelor George) he is reported to have said, "Gee: if I wasn't so busy I'd probably be upset"!!!!


Thanks for posting this clip, some great photos, and of course piano playing. The shot of him at the piano writing on a manuscript page with a cigar in his mouth is iconic - my favorite.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Speaking of *George Gershwin*, here's a good documentary about his life and work






The Nonesuch recordings of five of the Gershwin's musicals are wonderful recreations. I bought them all, and kept waiting for the sixth to come out, but it never did.

_*Lady, Be Good!*_ (1924), _*Oh, Kay!*_ (1926), _*Strike Up the Band*_ (1927/30), _*Girl Crazy*_ (1930), and _*Pardon My English*_ (1933)


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I am looking forward to Marry Poppin's return, to be seen on Christmas


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> Speaking of *George Gershwin*, here's a good documentary about his life and work
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've got ALL these recordings. Currently, except for "Strike up the Band" (OK, I can't part with it), they're all packed in boxes pending our move into an new home late January. Perhaps before the move into a storage facility, as we don't have at date yet for the house (why would we; it's only been 13 months!!!).


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2021)

I've seen the documentary on Gershwin and have read every biographical test I could get my hands on, mostly the Jablonski research. 

Can I take this opportunity, as we in Australia head into Christmas Eve, to wish everybody here a Merry Christmas and express my gratitude at being able to discuss the things which make me a musical tragic: art music and American musical theatre and film.

Thanks everybody.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2021)

This might appeal; I thoroughly enjoyed it - quality notwithstanding. Dawn Upshaw. Gold!!


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Christabel said:


> I've seen the documentary on Gershwin and have read every biographical test I could get my hands on, mostly the Jablonski research.
> 
> Can I take this opportunity, as we in Australia head into Christmas Eve, to wish everybody here a Merry Christmas and express my gratitude at being able to discuss the things which make me a musical tragic: art music and American musical theatre and film.
> 
> Thanks everybody.


And the same to you!

(Musical tragic?)


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Christabel said:


> This might appeal; I thoroughly enjoyed it - quality notwithstanding. Dawn Upshaw. Gold!!


Very nice. I haven't seen it before but am watching now.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2021)

jegreenwood said:


> And the same to you!
> 
> (Musical tragic?)


Yes, I am generally regarded as a musical tragic. And I can't seem to stop making typos; must be something to do with the date of birth!! I meant to write 'biographical TEXT' re Gershwin.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Christabel said:


> This might appeal; I thoroughly enjoyed it - quality notwithstanding. Dawn Upshaw. Gold!!


Just looked at the list of performers. Very impressive. I will watch.

I have an album of Dawn Upshaw singing Rodgers and Hart, which is most enjoyable.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> Just looked at the list of performers. Very impressive. I will watch.
> 
> I have an album of Dawn Upshaw singing Rodgers and Hart, which is most enjoyable.


Donna Murphy is one of my favorites.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

From Gershwin to Bernstein to Sondheim -

*The World of Stephen Sondheim*


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> Donna Murphy is one of my favorites.


I saw her in _Passion_ and a revival of _Wonderful Town_. She was excellent in both.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> From Gershwin to Bernstein to Sondheim -
> 
> *The World of Stephen Sondheim*


Started jumping around in this. I was reminded how much "Too Many Mornings" reminds me of "You Are Love" from _Show Boat_. Sondheim mentions Puccini in the introduction. Both songs are love duets with a big, operatic style ending. And I think Kern could have written the music for the Sondheim work.

Or maybe it's just because both opened side two of my cast recording albums.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> I saw her in _Passion_ and a revival of _Wonderful Town_. She was excellent in both.


_Passion_ is the show I associate with her, besides her many television appearances. Sondheim has talked about casting her in _Passion_, his reservations at first: was she too beautiful, could she sing? That kind of stuff which they figured out. I think at the time she hadn't done much musical work. But I could be wrong, I've forgotten exactly where I read it.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> Started jumping around in this. I was reminded how much "Too Many Mornings" reminds me of "You Are Love" from _Show Boat_. Sondheim mentions Puccini in the introduction. Both songs are love duets with a big, operatic style ending. And I think Kern could have written the music for the Sondheim work.
> 
> Or maybe it's just because both opened side two of my cast recording albums.


I didn't realize how out-of-sync it is. I can't hardly watch it.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I just found this, which I didn't know existed: The complete 6+ hour interview which formed the basis for the book, _Stephen Sondheim on Music_ by Mark Horowitz.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

_*On the Town*_

_On the Town_ is a musical with music by Leonard Bernstein and book and lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green, based on Jerome Robbins' idea for his 1944 ballet Fancy Free, which he had set to Bernstein's music. The musical introduced several popular and classic songs, among them "New York, New York", "Lonely Town", "I Can Cook, Too" (for which Bernstein also wrote the lyrics), and "Some Other Time". The story concerns three American sailors on a 24-hour shore leave in New York City during World War II, 1944. Each of the three sailors meets and quickly connects with a woman.

On the Town was first produced on Broadway in 1944 and was made into a film in 1949, although the film replaced all but four of the original Broadway numbers with Hollywood-written substitutes. The show has enjoyed several major revivals. The musical integrates dance into its storytelling: Robbins made several ballets and extended dance sequences for the show, including the "Imaginary Coney Island" ballet. (Wikipedia)


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> _*On the Town*_
> 
> _On the Town_ is a musical with music by Leonard Bernstein and book and lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green, based on Jerome Robbins' idea for his 1944 ballet Fancy Free, which he had set to Bernstein's music. The musical introduced several popular and classic songs, among them "New York, New York", "Lonely Town", "I Can Cook, Too" (for which Bernstein also wrote the lyrics), and "Some Other Time". The story concerns three American sailors on a 24-hour shore leave in New York City during World War II, 1944. Each of the three sailors meets and quickly connects with a woman.
> 
> On the Town was first produced on Broadway in 1944 and was made into a film in 1949, although the film replaced all but four of the original Broadway numbers with Hollywood-written substitutes. The show has enjoyed several major revivals. The musical integrates dance into its storytelling: Robbins made several ballets and extended dance sequences for the show, including the "Imaginary Coney Island" ballet. (Wikipedia)


Did I tell you the story of a choreographer I know that was given the opportunity to direct *ON THE TOWN*?

It was for a community theatre, as part of their "2nd Season" productions, which they called CAT (Conejo Afternoon Theatre). You see, those particular productions were given minimal budgets, and not only had to work around the Regular Season shows, but had to rehearse and perform on whatever set was had been built for that Main Stage production.

Darren was a great dancer, and excellent choreographer, but it would be his first time actually directing a show. He rehearsed the musical numbers by having the cast sing and dance along to the recorded tracks.

Finally, when the small pit band was brought in a week before the opening performance, nothing matched up.

That's right - he'd just ASSUMED that the music from the film version score would be the same as the stage version score, and he'd choreographed EVERYTHING to the film score. If you've ever worked in musical theatre, you'll be aware that when you "rent" a show, they will ALWAYS send you the STAGE version, as film versions are never licensed to community theatres.

Anyway, instead of spending that last week of rehearsals getting the tech perfected, and having proper run-throughs and dress rehearsals, he and his cast spent that last week making major modifications to his existing choreography and creating new choreography to music of which no one was familiar. Those heavily rehearsed "extended dance sequences" had to be cut.

Yeah, it was the most basic of rookie mistakes. Yes, he had the score, but he did not read music, so never opened that score, nor did he bother to have anyone else look through it.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-07-04-vl-2381-story.html

The theatre never heard from him again.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

pianozach said:


> Did I tell you the story of a choreographer I know that was given the opportunity to direct *ON THE TOWN*?


Great story, although I guess not for Darren.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Ouch!

As for the critic's assessment of the score, I think a listen to Sinatra doing "Lonely Town" (on record, not in the film) and Tony Bennett and Bill Evans doing "Some Other Time" might lead to a reassessment.











Joshua Bergasse, who choreographed the most recent Broadway revival of _On the Town_, choreographed our production of _Sweet Charity_. I was told at the time that he is also one of the few choreographers licensed to recreate Robbins' choreography for WSS.

https://www.playbill.com/article/on...-the-dream-ballet-back-to-broadway-com-333812


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2021)

Very satirical and still very relevant:


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Christabel said:


> Very satirical and still very relevant:


"Up your honor, bit by bit," is one of my favorite lines of all times.

This is my favorite song from a Bock and Harnick show. At least on my computer I had to turn up the volume pretty far.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2021)

Yes, it's absolutely priceless. Along with the ribald turns of Cole Porter. "She got kicked in the ***-ter Bar"!!


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Yesterday YouTube recommended this video for me:






I didn't pay sufficient attention to the title. These are the *hardest* dance numbers, not necessarily the best nor the most artistic. However, it's an interesting list. And anyone who can guess number one will definitely receive a round of :clap: from me.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2021)

"I Hope I get it" from "A Chorus Line" or ANYTHING by Twyla Tharp.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Being Alive
Company
Sondheim

Brilliant lyrics.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*Ira Gershwin*'s book _Lyrics on Several Occasions_ is a fantastic primer on the art of lyric writing as well as containing a complete collection of his work. Indispensable for those of us interested in lyrics and songwriting.

After each song he has some commentary, often about the construction of the lyric, or his thoughts, in general, about writing lyrics (e.g. the long essay after "I Got Rhythm"), but sometimes just some historical information about the song and show.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

From the zoomed 90th Birthday Celebration for Stephen Sondheim, *Donna Murphy* singing "Send in the Clowns"






If it doesn't auto advance, go-to

*1:53:55* - Donna Murphy - "Send in the Clowns" (A Little Night Music)


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2021)

This Christmas morning I'm singing along with "Fletcher's American Cheese Choral Society"!!


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

*Putting It Together
originally from SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE
Barbra Streisand
The Broadway Album
*
Funny story about this one. Barbra loves the song, BUT . . . but she'd like it to be a bit less "fine art" and more "music related", so she asks Stephen for some alternate lyrics, lyrics to reflect the artistic struggles she experiences as a recording artist, which would necessitate some targeted rewriting of lyrics.






.

Sondheim also added a verse to *SEND IN THE CLOWNS* for Barbra Streisand to use on The Broadway Album and subsequent concert performances.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Christabel said:


> "I Hope I get it" from "A Chorus Line" or ANYTHING by Twyla Tharp.


Both on the list. I was surprised about how much I enjoyed the Billy Joel musical. Alas, lightning did not strike twice. When she tried to duplicate it with Dylan tunes.

Dylan was put to much better use in "Girl From the North Country," currently on Broadway, but I suspect not for very long.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

pianozach said:


> Being Alive
> Company
> Sondheim
> 
> Brilliant lyrics.


This appear to be the whole show.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2021)

This is a definitive version of an old favourite:


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2022)

A very moving performance from Bryn Terfel of "Come Home" from Rodgers and Hammerstein's little-appreciated show "Allegro". I used this song as the basis of a mime for a junior secondary Drama performance:






Another excellent song from the same musical, sung by Terfel, "*So Far*". Reminiscent of an earlier era of Broadway musicals in its aesthetic. Superb lyrics!!


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2022)




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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

_Hadestown_ by *Anaïs Mitchell*






Started out as a concept album from 2010 but she expanded it into a full-fledged musical show in 2019. A re-telling of the Orpheus and Eurydice story.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Aerial straps Duo - Alexey and Pavel
Just saw this on You tube, I wish I could do the same .


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Rogerx said:


> Aerial straps Duo - Alexey and Pavel
> Just saw this on You tube, I wish I could do the same .


Yes, but what is it doing in this thread?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> Yes, but what is it doing in this thread?


It would have worked in _Pippin_.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

A Little Night Music

An oft-performed musical with music and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim, A Little Night Music is based on the Ingmar Bergman film Smiles of a Summer Night and premiered on Broadway in 1973.

Start with: "A Weekend in the Country," "Send in the Clowns


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Rogerx said:


> A Little Night Music
> 
> An oft-performed musical with music and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim, A Little Night Music is based on the Ingmar Bergman film Smiles of a Summer Night and premiered on Broadway in 1973.
> 
> Start with: "A Weekend in the Country," "Send in the Clowns


The image looks like its from the soundtrack from the film adaptation. Elizabeth Taylor starred. It was widely panned, and I have never seen it. One thing though - Sondheim replaced the song, "The Glamorous Life" with a new song sharing the same title and intro (although sung by a different character). It's definitely worth hearing.

Judi Dench's performance in the original London production was said to be very good.

The entire score is written in some version of waltz time (_e.g._ 3/4 or 9/8) with the exception of a few measures of underscoring.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

pianozach said:


> *I've musical directed a production of Les Miserables. I was supposed to MD it again this summer, but COVID.*
> 
> Musicals are, and have been, a very large portion of my life. I've been a part (directed, MD'd, conducted, performed in, or been in the orchestra pit) of/for 6 Rodgers and Hammerstein shows, and all of the Gilbert and Sullivan shows.
> 
> ...


That production of Les Miz, which was originally scheduled to be presented Summer 2020, was postponed, and replaced with a production of THE PIRATES OF PENZANCE, making it the umpteenth time I've Musical Directed it.

As we were under continually changing social distancing and mask protocols, the 10 main characters performed masked on a stage 60' wide (each performer in a 6' cubicle), while the ensemble was on the other side of the building in masks and face sheilds. At least the ensemble could see each other; the leads had dividers between them and pretended to interact. 

Les Miserables was presented Summer 2021, and the social distancing again affected the show. As we couldn't predict just what the mandates might be on opening night, the production was staged with the performers all distanced. Distancing was lifted for performers on stage four days prior to opening, and we were able to perform maskless, and some scenes were restaged at the last minute, notably the one where Eponine dies in Marius' arms.

Our Gilbert & Sullivan Troupe had two of its three weekends cancelled in March 2020, but we did get to present a show in Fall 2020. Our Artistic Director cancelled the Spring 2021 show, as the Omicron Variant of the COVID-19 had just triggered everyone. Sorry, does this belong in the Gripe of the Day thread?

My Summer musical this year will be Rent School Edition. It's basically the same show with the one offensive song removed, and all the F-Bombs changed to "fricken'".


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