# Varying orchestra size and composition



## Enthalpy

Hello everybody!

You know or noticed that the same symphonic orchestra has sometimes 2 flutes, oboes... and sometimes 5, with other instruments varying accordingly. Sometimes they play usual instruments, sometimes older or rare ones.

So my first question is: *how does the orchestra adapt?*

Small fraction of musicians on the permanent payroll, others hired temporarily?

The orchestra possesses the not-so-rare instruments not expected from the musicians (wagnertuben), and for a really rare instrument (cimbasso), it lends one and lets a musician play it? Or the orchestra hires for short a musician who plays and owns the rare instrument?

Thanks!


----------



## Heck148

All large professional orchestras in the US are unionized and work under collective bargaining agreements. These CBAs usually provide for a "core" orchestra of standard size, with those musicians hired full-time with full season contracts....extra musicians are handled in different ways...some may be offered a contract for fewer services than fulltime, others are hired on a "per service" basis...ie - they get paid specifically for the services they perform, at the designated CBA rate.
Unique instruments may be leased or in some cases, owned by the orchestra...
Sometimes, the specific musician is hired, and they own their own instrument...
As an personal manager, I had to hire a cimbalom player to perform Kodaly "Hary Janos"...the musician hired owned her own instrument, we rented it (part of her fee) and compensated her for cartage.


----------



## Enthalpy

That sounds a reasonable answer to the huge flexibility needed for such varied scores.
(Very nice music, Hary janos)

The cimbalom is a nice example of an instrument impossible to play by an other musician. It's not an English horn just lower, not a trumpet with more conical bore, not a single reed with different fingerings.

How difficult is it to find an exotic musician and instrument? You note names down when hearing one, or there are artistic agents who answer "yes, I have one cimbalist for June", or you ask a colleague where he found his cimbalist? You just search the Web?


----------



## mbhaub

This depends on the size of the orchestra. A standard symphony orchestra might have winds in pairs: 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons. Brass figuration is pretty standard: 4 horns, 2 trumpets, 3 trombones, 1 tuba. Add a timpani and likely 2 percussion. And strings. So they need to bring in extras for piccolo, bass clarinet, english horn, contrabassoon and harp.

Next up the order will have winds in threes so those extra parts are covered without need to hire extras. Also, it gives principals the possibility of more time off, and the third player a chance to play more.

Really large groups will have winds in fours, an extra horn, trumpet, percussion and possibly 2 harps. This makes it really easy for the personnel manager to have every part covered. But still, you have to occasionally hire extras - like cimbalon, mandolin, guitar, a second contrabassoon, bass oboe, Heckelphone, Ondes Martinot, etc. Some items are so rare and hard to get that you have to book years in advance. And sometimes you have unexpected talent in the group. In one orchestra I play with one of the violists is a virtuoso on mandolin and one of the trombone players is a master of the guitar. Then they get paid doubling fees.


----------



## Enthalpy

Thanks both!

And *what instruments does a decent symphonic orchestra have* in its treasure trove, according to your guess?

a) Wagnertuben, two tenor and two bass.
b) Bb flugelhorn(s)
c) Euphonium
d) Alto horn, baritone horn, as known from brass bands
e) Alto clarinet
f) Second bass clarinet
g) Contrabass clarinet
h) Alto, tenor saxophone
i) Soprano, baritone saxophone
j) Oboe d'amore
k) Celesta

I know Strasbourg's orchestra owns a heckelphone because I held it shortly in my hands, but this can only be an exception, since there are fewer heckelphones than orchestras.

BTW, if one seeks a nice sound on the heckelphone, this lady has it:


----------



## Heck148

a, k.....most of the other instruments would be individually owned. Orchestras might own a tenor horn (Mahler 7) ??...also bass trumpet (Wagner "Ring")

Side note - definition of a total nerd = one who actually owns an alto clarinet!!


----------



## Heck148

Enthalpy said:


> That sounds a reasonable answer to the huge flexibility needed for such varied scores.
> (Very nice music, Hary janos)....
> 
> How difficult is it to find an exotic musician and instrument? You note names down when hearing one, or there are artistic agents who answer "yes, I have one cimbalist for June", or you ask a colleague where he found his cimbalist? You just search the Web?


AF of M data base (American Federation of Musicians, aka, the union) ....that's how I located the cimbslom player...there was one in Boston, but he was out of country on another job...NY had a couple, one of them was available.


----------



## mbhaub

The can vary from orchestra to orchestra.

a) Wagnertuben, two tenor and two bass. *Owned by some orchestras that are rented out to others. LA Phil has a set.*
b) Bb flugelhorn(s)* Many trumpet players own their instruments.*
c) Euphonium *Non-standard and you'd hire a player who owns his instrument.*
d) Alto horn, baritone horn, as known from brass bands *Same as above.*
e) Alto clarinet. *Getting rare. But some clarinet pros have one. A rarity and other than some band music hardly essential.*
f) Second bass clarinet *Bass clar/third clar players always own their instruments.*
g) Contrabass clarinet. *Like the alto, a specialty instrument used in film scores. A low clarinet player should have an E flat contra alto, the B flat contra bass being very rare. My E flat Selmer doesn't get much use.*
h) Alto, tenor saxophone *All players own theirs.*
i) Soprano, baritone saxophone *Ditto*
j) Oboe d'amore *Some oboe/EH players own one, but commonly rent them from one of several companies.*
k) Celesta *Orchestras own these when possible. They can be very expensive. More and more groups are using electronic keyboards which sound is ok, but no match for the real thing.*

Some orchestras own a contrabassoon for a player to use, but bassoonists who aspire to play contra usually buy their own.


----------



## SONNET CLV

Heck148 said:


> ...
> Unique instruments may be leased or in some cases, owned by the orchestra...
> Sometimes, the specific musician is hired, and they own their own instrument...
> As an personal manager, I had to hire a cimbalom player to perform Kodaly "Hary Janos"...the musician hired owned her own instrument, we rented it (part of her fee) and compensated her for cartage.


So Heck148, as I possess a unique talent for whistling bird calls, do you think I may have a future (and money-making opportunities) performing in Respighi's _The Pines of Rome_ or Rautavaara's _Cantus Arcticus_? Or perhaps in something by Messiaen? Too, I can probably work for cheaper than the average cimbalom player! (I can even do dog barking, which might provide me an orchestral seat in that Piston piece: _The Incredible Flutist_.) Hey, give it a thought any how, will you? Thanks.


----------



## Heck148

SONNET CLV said:


> So Heck148, as I possess a unique talent for whistling bird calls, do you think I may have a future (and money-making opportunities) performing in Respighi's _The Pines of Rome_....


That's funny...
I actually did that one time in a performance....the guys who were supposed to run the birdcall tape in "Janiculum" screwed up...Two of us, a trumpeter and myself, ad-libbed it during the concert!! Conductor was a pretty cool guy - gave us a solo bow!! LOL!!


----------



## david johnson

Heck148 said:


> a, k.....most of the other instruments would be individually owned. Orchestras might own a tenor horn (Mahler 7) ??...also bass trumpet (Wagner "Ring")
> 
> Side note - definition of a total nerd = one who actually owns an alto clarinet!!


I have an alto clarinet


----------



## Heck148

david johnson said:


> I have an alto clarinet


If you admit it in public, then you aren't a nerd!!


----------



## mbhaub

Keep it! Leroy Anderson wrote a series of Christmas arrangements. One set for strings, one for brass and the the tricky one: for woodwinds. Calls for alto clarinet and because of the range you can't simply substitute a B flat instrument, and having a bass clarinet transpose is the wrong timbre. Don't know what Leroy was thinking.


----------



## Enthalpy

mbhaub said:


> Leroy Anderson wrote a series of Christmas arrangements [...] Calls for alto clarinet [...] Don't know what Leroy was thinking.


Maybe he just thought the alto clarinet has a marvellous sound and he wanted to hear that one. That would be a damn good reason. Of course, it needs the instrument, and the trained musician.

Same damn good reason to have and play one. Neither a bass nor a soprano provide that sound. We need two instruments per octave, like for the saxophones.

Hey David Johnson, what is your next instrument? A tárogató?


----------



## Enthalpy

Very useful answers, many thanks! My latest information dated back to Berlioz, sort of rusty...

So if a composer wants a saxophone quartet or a saxhorn section in a symphonic orchestra, the number of clarinettists or tubists is not a limit. "Only" the money.

Owning a contrabassoon, ouch... It must take some time to make it profitable. Well, some flutes are as expensive as a contrabassoon.

I had imagined the contrabass clarinet more common than the contralto. They would be very useful in many orchestra scores. More bass clarinets too, for the balance of the woodwind section.


----------



## MarkW

In my youth, attending BSO concerts, I was always amused in those rare occasions requiring a celeste, to see it being played by one of the otherwise regular cellists -- a big man behind a tiny keyboard!


----------



## mikeh375

I once recorded a big band in a piece of mine and as the budget was healthy, I wrote for a bass sax. Boy that sound was something.


----------



## Heck148

mikeh375 said:


> I once recorded a big band in a piece of mine and as the budget was healthy, I wrote for a bass sax. Boy that sound was something.


Two bass saxes in "West Side Story"....they have a big part in the dance sequence....in Bernstein's video with Carreres and TeKanawa there is a funny interchange....the first dance has the bass saxes blowing their brains out....recording engineer John McClure tells Lenny from the control room <<Can you have the bass saxes play out more, they're not coming thru!!>> 
Bernstein erupts!! <<Not coming thru??!! They're the loudest instruments in the world!! You're just not picking them up!! Your problem!!>>
Great video all-around, to see/hear Lenny at work in the studio..."America" is really something else!!


----------



## mikeh375

Heck148 said:


> Two bass saxes in "West Side Story"....they have a big part in the dance sequence....in Bernstein's video with Carreres and TeKanawa there is a funny interchange....the first dance has the bass saxes blowing their brains out....recording engineer John McClure tells Lenny from the control room <<Can you have the bass saxes play out more, they're not coming thru!!>>
> Bernstein erupts!! <<Not coming thru??!! They're the loudest instruments in the world!! You're just not picking them up!! Your problem!!>>
> Great video all-around, to see/hear Lenny at work in the studio..."America" is really something else!!


yes a great video and what a band. Carreres was hopeless in Somethings Coming.


----------



## mbhaub

This discussion has become very relevant in recent days. One orchestra I play with, sometimes conduct, and help with library matters is trying to figure out how to have a season knowing there is no way we can go on stage with 80-90 players right now. Se the discussion of reduced orchestration came up. This site it quite interesting, and may be the salvation for a lot of organizations:
http://www.smallorch.com/


----------



## Heck148

mikeh375 said:


> yes a great video and what a band. Carreres was hopeless in Somethings Coming.


Yup!! Carreres hopelessly miscast as "Tony/Anton", who's supposed to be a tough Polish kid...lol!! He does a total meltdown!!


----------



## Heck148

Enthalpy said:


> Very useful answers, many thanks! My latest information dated back to Berlioz, ....
> Owning a contrabassoon, ouch... It must take some time to make it profitable.


Contrabass trombone is another rather unique instrument...Wagner uses it extensively in the "Ring"...Strauss wrote for it in "Alpine Symphony"....it 2bles the bass trombone, iirc, like the contrabassoon, it sounds an octave lower than written...


----------



## Enthalpy

Bass saxophone... I tried once at a workshop in Paris. A customer had brought it for some repair, of course all craftsmen were playing around with it, they invited me to try. BIG sound indeed.

Most remarkably, I played the alto then and felt immediately home on the bass. Different embouchure of course, but a saxophonist knows immediately all fingerings and can play music. That's invaluable.

Later I tried Eppelsheim's tubax, which are even lower, and the same happened. You just need to check on what octave you play, because they're so low that the second octave seems already a contrabass bottom. Reasonably loud, about clarinet-like, and the narrow bore lets fold the instruments more, which makes reasonable air consumption, size, weight, cost. I believe more units exist than bass saxophones. Composers should consider the tubax, for instance as woodwind section contrabasses. Maybe I make a few threads soon with hearing samples of rare instruments, or rather of rare woodwinds - rare brass - rare strings.


----------



## Enthalpy

Heck148 said:


> Contrabass trombone is another rather unique instrument [...]


And how much air does it use? The bass trombone has already a bad reputation for it.

How are the present instruments built? During the romantic period, they had two parallel slides. The Stuttgart symphonic orchestra demonstrates one. But I suppose more recent builds would keep one slide of usual length without extension, and add valves as the slide doesn't cover a fifth.

The alternative would be a cimbasso. Two sizes exist, they're essentially low valve trombones of slightly different shape. Less infrequent in Italy. Requested by Rossini and Verdi, for the excellentissima reason that the tuba is no bass for the family of trumpets and trombones.


----------



## Heck148

Enthalpy said:


> And how much air does it use? The bass trombone has already a bad reputation for it.
> 
> How are the present instruments built? During the romantic period, they had two parallel slides. The Stuttgart symphonic orchestra demonstrates one. But I suppose more recent builds would keep one slide of usual length without extension, and add valves as the slide doesn't cover a fifth..


I'm sure it takes a lot of air....very little resistance. Like the tuba...I've not seen one in person....I have seen pictures of the Solti/VPO Ring production...I think the contrabass trombone might have been a big valve trombone...not sure, but kind of remember it that way....


----------



## mbhaub

Nope! It's a slide trombone and the slide has double tubing. There used to be a great dixieland band at Disneyland and they used one. I know a trombone player who owns one, rarely uses it. But it does have a certain utility and flexibility over a valved tuba.


----------



## Heck148

mbhaub said:


> Nope! It's a slide trombone and the slide has double tubing. There used to be a great dixieland band at Disneyland and they used one. I know a trombone player who owns one, rarely uses it. But it does have a certain utility and flexibility over a valved tuba.
> View attachment 135906


could be both slide and valve instruments...I'm pretty sure the photo I saw was a valve instrument....in any case it is cylindrical bore, which gives it that centered, brightness, as opposed to the big round tuba [conical bore] sound....
The modern orchestra is an interesting balance of cylindrical bore instruments [ trumpet, trombone] with conical bore ones [horn, tuba]. of course, there are all sorts of different mixes and combinations as well [cornets, fluegelhorns, tenor tubas, baritone horn, etc, etc], many of which have been mentioned on this thread


----------



## SONNET CLV

mbhaub said:


> This discussion has become very relevant in recent days. One orchestra I play with, sometimes conduct, and help with library matters is trying to figure out how to have a season knowing there is no way we can go on stage with 80-90 players right now. Se the discussion of reduced orchestration came up. This site it quite interesting, and may be the salvation for a lot of organizations:
> http://www.smallorch.com/


Some of the modern/contemporary composers (mostly, it seems) write pieces for orchestra ensemble groups split up and placed in various locations around the stage or hall. Too, you might feature pieces that rely on off-stage instruments. (I almost suspect some enterprising composer will write a piece appropriately titled "Social Distancing" and utilize separated/partitioned players.)

The real problem is: what do you do with the audience? Everybody wants those good seats. (Though where the good seats will be in a ensemble partitioned orchestra, I don't know. One can't sit too close to the musicians, either.)


----------



## Enthalpy

Does every symphonic orchestra own enough *flugelhorns* for every trumpet player? Or do symphonic trumpet player own their own flugelhorn?

I understand full-time flugelhorn players don't always like the sound when a trumpet player blows the thing, but for an orchestra, hiring extra musicians is more expensive.

Same question for *cornets*: do all symphonic trumpet players own a cornet, or can the orchestra provide stock?


----------



## mbhaub

From what I know about my many trumpet playing fans:

Pro players have cornets - these are the serious guys who know there's a difference when a composer writes two trumpet and two cornet parts. Many have several trumpets: a B-flat model, one in C and sometimes a small piccolo trumpet. A few own their own flugel horns for those really rare occasions where called for in orchestral music, but they use it mostly in jazz ensembles. 

Cornet used to be so popular, but in recent decades has fallen by the wayside in the US. In British style brass bands there are distinct parts for cornet and trumpet and in those groups they respect those differences. In American bands, even though there may be cornet and trumpet parts, both are now commonly played on trumpet...a mistake in my opinion. But then I'm one of those purists who also want baritone parts played on a baritone and not on a euphonium.

I know of no orchestra that provides trumpet players with flugels or cornets. A professional player would be expected to have his/her own. The only time I know of orchestras providing brass instruments of any type are the Wagner Tubas. 

It's also worth noting that many conductors, especially younger ones, have no idea that there's any difference between cornets and trumpets and have no idea what's going on. The other complication are the German style rotary valve trumpets mainly used in Europe. The sound is somewhere between the trumpet and cornet. I like it and they're much more secure on high notes than the piston instruments.


----------



## Heck148

Professional trumpeters would own their own trumpets, cornets, piccolo trumpets, fluegelhorns...the orchestra would provide Wagner tubas, and quite possibly, bass trumpets, and contra-bass trombone (both employed by Wagner)...
I don't really care for the rotary valve trumpets, they're too mellow and lack brilliance, esp in the high notes....the VPO seems to do pretty well with them tho, they must use brighter horns, less heavy plating, or whatever. 
I like to preserve the difference between the cylindrical bore instruments (trumpet, trombone), and the conical bore ones (horn, tuba)....I think it provides for a more colorful, expressive sound.


----------



## Enthalpy

What about the *A clarinet*?

I believe every professional orchestra player owns one, possibly brings both in one case, so composers can really switch depending on the key signature or the range?

And what do clarinettists think about it? At least on the Boehm clarinet, heavy key signature isn't a big obstacle. Would they prefer, or do they tend to, play every music on the Bb instrument? Or are they grateful for the lighter key signature?


----------



## Heck148

Enthalpy said:


> What about the *A clarinet*?
> 
> I believe every professional orchestra player owns one, possibly brings both in one case, so composers can really switch depending on the key signature or the range?
> 
> And what do clarinettists think about it? At least on the Boehm clarinet, heavy key signature isn't a big obstacle. Would they prefer, or do they tend to, play every music on the Bb instrument? Or are they grateful for the lighter key signature?


Key signature us the main consideration. If a work is written in A major (3#), then the Bb clarinet is in B major (5#)....if the clarinetist uses A clarinet, he plays in C major....if a work is in Eb major, A clarinet plays in Gb maj(6b); Bb clarinet plays in F major(1b)...


----------



## mbhaub

Enthalpy said:


> What about the *A clarinet*?
> 
> I believe every professional orchestra player owns one, possibly brings both in one case, so composers can really switch depending on the key signature or the range?
> 
> And what do clarinettists think about it? At least on the Boehm clarinet, heavy key signature isn't a big obstacle. Would they prefer, or do they tend to, play every music on the Bb instrument? Or are they grateful for the lighter key signature?


One of the worst evenings I have ever had as a conductor: the second clarinetist was ill so she called a friend whose high school daughter was a "superb" clarinet player to sub. Silly girl shows up with her plastic clarinet and I asked her if she brought an A-clarinet also, since much of the music called for that instrument. No, she said, she'll just transpose. Well, good luck with that. She sits down looks over the music, playing it in the wrong key. Then comes up and asks does she play it up or down a half step? Down I said. The rehearsal was a nightmare. Occasionally with a whole note she got it right, but anything else, forget it. You want to hear hell, listen to the Mendelssohn Fingal's Cave - there are extensive passages for clarinets in thirds - when the second player is almost always on the wrong pitch.


----------



## Heck148

Waltz of the Flowers is another oft-botched clarinet solo if attempted on the wrong instrument...same with Polovtsian Dances....


----------



## Enthalpy

Thanks! So one can expect every professional orchestra clarinettist to own and bring both instruments.

About key signature, the Bloch's Prayer is written with four b for the cello, nothing special since bowed instruments are nearly insensitive to that. But the range is C to F (3.5 octaves), badly high for a German bassoon. A semitone lower would still reach E, uncomfortable for the German system, so Tanaka played it one tone lower, ranging Bb (lowest possible) to Eb, and then with six b, despite the bassoon is so sensitive to flats and sharps... OK, the piece is slow and Tanaka was fantastic. Fabulous result:


----------



## mbhaub

Enthalpy said:


> ...the bassoon is so sensitive to flats and sharps...


Huh? Depends on the player, the reed, the bocal, the instrument, but the flats and sharps are no more sensitive than the naturals. Yes, there are some really bad notes on bassoons - all bassoons - but a great player like Tanaka makes them seem trivial. Low E and the octave above are particularly tricky for a lot of amateurs.


----------



## Enthalpy

I meant, the difficulty of fingerings. Flats and sharps make a score more difficult on a bassoon (I speak mainly for the French bassoon I play, the German system hopefully improved that). The flute too is seriously sensitive to flats and sharps, but C major isn't the easiest. The saxophone is little sensitive, the Boehm clarinet even less.


----------



## Heck148

Enthalpy said:


> I meant, the difficulty of fingerings. Flats and sharps make a score more difficult on a bassoon (I speak mainly for the French bassoon I play, the German system hopefully improved that). The flute too is seriously sensitive to flats and sharps, but C major isn't the easiest. The saxophone is little sensitive, the Boehm clarinet even less.


??? Greater flats and sharps tend to make music trickier on any woodwind instrument....as for clarinets - Bb, A clarinets are designed and used with this in mind...


----------



## Enthalpy

The flute is easier to play with four flats. And, no, the saxophone (which I played too) isn't very sensitive to flats and sharps: Bb and F# change nothing, C# is slightly easier except in the low range, Eb G# Ab worsen very little. Flats and sharps add much more difficulty on the French bassoon. I won't be affirmative about the Boehm clarinet as I didn't play it seriously.


----------



## Enthalpy

Do *harpists bring their own instrument* to the orchestra?

I had always imagined that the orchestra or the concert hall owns the harp(s) as is done for the grand piano, but recently I read a different story.

This must be a serious burden in the harpist's life. Put that instrument twice a day in and out the car.


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

Tonight's orchestral covid concert is virtually attended , and no wind players will be allowed to perform . Orchestra size has been reduced to 25 . Copeland's Appalachian Spring is the featured work . On-line admission price is 20$ . I won't be going .


----------



## Heck148

Enthalpy said:


> Do *harpists bring their own instrument* to the orchestra?


Yes, they bring their own instruments....as an orchestra personnel manager/contractor I could fill endless pages with horror stories regarding harpists and their cartage issues......
....


----------



## Heck148

Tikoo Tuba said:


> Tonight's orchestral covid concert is virtually attended , and no wind players will be allowed to perform . Orchestra size has been reduced to 25 . Copeland's Appalachian Spring is the featured work . On-line admission price is 20$ . I won't be going .


How can you perform "Appalachian Spring" with no wind instruments??


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

Heck148 said:


> How can you perform "Appalachian Spring" with no wind instruments??


It is a work of orchestral colors . The flutes are endearing . I'd rather hear it performed
by a quartet of violin , bassoon , flute and drum on a street corner .


----------



## Heck148

Tikoo Tuba said:


> It is a work of orchestral colors . The flutes are endearing . I'd rather hear it performed
> by a quartet of violin , bassoon , flute and drum on a street corner .


The original version is for 15 instruments - fl, cl, bssn, pno and strings....I love it more than the full orchestra version, which is dear to me also.


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

Very nice to know . Thanks .


----------



## Enthalpy

Heck148 said:


> Yes, they bring their own instruments....as an orchestra personnel manager/contractor I could fill endless pages with horror stories regarding harpists and their cartage issues......


Thanks! Yes, I imagine. The harpist better marries the tubist to help transport the harp. And buy a car with a lifting tailgate.

==========

What about the *percussions?* Too bulky to transport from and to home I suppose. Do they all belong to the orchestra? Or only the big ones?


----------



## mbhaub

Every professional orchestra owns the big stuff: timpani, bass drum, celeste, tam tam, xylophone, marimba, chimes, glockenspiel (all the mallet keyboard stuff) and likely an assortment of cymbals and perhaps snare drums. There is usually an equipment manager whose job it is to move that stuff. 

Many smaller orchestras also have timpani and bass drum, maybe a xylophone and a few other things and an equipment manager also is included.

In some pick up groups they hire players who actually own the big stuff and pay them cartage, which is negotiable, to lug the stuff. I have a timpani playing friend who is constantly begging someone to drive along with him since he needs help loading and unloading the set. It's not fun.

At all levels, good players prefer using their own cymbals, snare drums and smaller items. Of course they all have a huge assortment of sticks, except oddly not a tam tam mallet - they expect the orchestras to have those.


----------



## mikeh375

mbhaub said:


> At all levels, good players prefer using their own cymbals, snare drums and smaller items. *Of course they all have a huge assortment of sticks, except oddly not a tam tam mallet - they expect the orchestras to have those.*


..they have the loincloths though mbhaub...right?..


----------



## Enthalpy

And what are the instruments and musicians most difficult to hire?

I've heard about the viola, contrabass, bassoon, oboe. What about the tuba, horn, trombone...?

The saxophone must be an easy one, but for the baritone maybe. I suppose at least one clarinettist in every professional orchestra plays and owns the bass? The contrabass would often be rented, and one clarinettist would train the score?


----------



## mbhaub

Depends on where you live, really. In any big city almost any instrument will have a practitioner. In smaller cities it's a challenge. As far as strings go, there are fewer violists than the rest for some reason. And competition for good brass players can make getting players more challenging, but if you're paying a decent amount they'll come.

I do a lot of contrabassoon playing and there are many seasons when I'm stretched to the limit with the requests for my services. There aren't many of us out there.

Bass clarinetists are easy to find - there are players who prefer to play it. Not that many clarinetists have one. The trick here is getting a really good one who can read the part when it's in bass clef or in the key of A. Are there orchestral scores with contra alto or contra bass clarinet? What is difficult is getting someone who actually has an alto clarinet. Not used very much, but every now and then on a Christmas concert someone programs the Leroy Anderson carol arrangements for woodwinds - and you have to have an alto AND a contrabass. The part is not optional, and the range is outside of the standard clarinet.

There are plenty of players out there, and a lot are willing to travel. As long as the group hiring is willing to pay a decent wage, cover transporation/shipping, and even lodging. One cimbalon player made a career out of traveling with his instrument all over the world just to play Kodaly's Hary Janos.

Depending on the season and other factors, one of the trickiest is getting a harp player. There aren't many of them, and even fewer good ones. It's a serious problem with no quick solution as harp isn't something you just decide to pick up. 

Anyway, a call to the musician's union local office will provide almost any group with any needs.


----------



## Heck148

mbhaub said:


> .....One cimbalon player made a career out of traveling with his instrument all over the world just to play Kodaly's Hary Janos.


Cimbalom players are a rare breed...I used to do lots of contracting, I was personnel manager for one orchestra for around 20 years - we played Hary Janos - getting a cimbalom player took some doing - the main Boston guy was overseas playing Kodaly....there was an elderly lady in NY who played Kodaly, all over the place - but she was busy - she did recommend someone, one of her ex-students, who took the job, finally.


> Depending on the season and other factors, one of the trickiest is getting a harp player. There aren't many of them, and even fewer good ones.


I always found the harp to be the biggest PITA for a contractor/pers. mgr....as you say, there aren't a lot of them that are good...and they can really be demanding....it used to drive me nuts that they would want all of this $$ for cartage - moving the instrument, transporting it, in and out of hall....first thing, they would go after the stage crew to move their harp!! you know - you're getting paid cartage, so move your own instrument!!


----------



## Enthalpy

Some instruments among the rare ones can be played occasionally by an orchestra musician used to a different height. So would there be room for a company that rents out an alto clarinet, a contrabass clarinet, a sopranino saxophone, a cimbasso, a baritone oboe, an oboe d'amore, an oboe musette, a contrabass sarrusophone, a contraforte, a bass flute, a discant horn, a bass trumpet, a celesta...? Already done? Or you prefer to find the musician who owns the instrument?


----------



## mbhaub

Sometimes an orchestra member does step up and play something odd and yes, there are companies out there already that rent out oddities. RDG Woodwinds in Los Angeles is a good place to start. The orchestra would rent the instrument for the player. In many locales players of certain instruments have networked and know who has what. There's a retired engineer in my area who is a clarinet nut and owns several versions of any model imaginable. Need a clarinet in C? He's the go to guy - and reasonable! A good percussionist friend has a huge garage filled with "toys" he regularly hires out. Wanna play the Mozart Sleigh Ride with tuned bells? He has them. I built my own theremin and loan it out on occasion - always around Halloween. But it's always better to find someone who actually plays the odd thing, if they can. So many of the owners of these rarer instruments are second- or third-rate players.


----------



## Enthalpy

Thanks Mbhaub and Heck148!

Solutions sure exist already, since the music needing rare instruments gets played. And kudos to RDG Woodwinds for owning a baritone oboe. But I don't see a contrabass clarinet nor a heckelphone there, for instance.

So maybe a specialized renting company would bring something. One that operates continent-wide and whose offer is easy to memorize, like "If I need a woodwind I'll find it there" (or a brass, or any wind, or percussion, or any instrument). This would save time when organizing a concert or a season and would give confidence when programming music.

The instruments serving often would make more economic sense. The renting company could then afford good instruments, while a musician or orchestra using them every second year will naturally choose cheap ones.

Already a few celestas would be useful to many orchestras. Expensive, don't serve in every concert, but needed by many pieces, and pianists play them, so renting a celesta seems better than buying it or tinkering some agreement.

Even some more usual instruments could be helpful. Imagine the (contra) bass trombonist leaving his band or orchestra with his instrument, he's not so easy to replace on-the-fly. But a tenor trombonist could replace him temporarily if an instrument can be rent.

Or optional instruments. Aida trumpets bring something to the show, but orchestras shouldn't let manufacture some just for Aida. In contrast, orchestras would play them often if available for rental. Same for natural horns and trumpets. Or the C contrabass sarrusophone, which was the composer's first choice in French romantic music, but is inaccurately replaced by the contrabassoon. A contrabassoonist can obviously play the simple notes on the easy fingerings copied from the saxophone.


----------



## Enthalpy

And how difficult is it to find a *tubist*? I see big known orchestras with only one tuba position, despite the tubist must be on vacation or sick sometimes.

And what if a composer wants a tuba and a cimbasso at the same time? I feel it would make sense, since their sounds differ so much and fit different brass groups. Hire a second tubist for that score? Or is it too difficult, and the composer should refrain from writing this?

If a score needs a *euphonium*: is it played by the tubist, or does the orchestra hire a euphonist?


----------



## Heck148

Enthalpy said:


> And how difficult is it to find a *tubist*? I see big known orchestras with only one tuba position, despite the tubist must be on vacation or sick sometimes.
> 
> And what if a composer wants a tuba and a cimbasso at the same time? I feel it would make sense, since their sounds differ so much and fit different brass groups. Hire a second tubist for that score? Or is it too difficult, and the composer should refrain from writing this?


Orchestras have one tuba-ist on contract, and a call list to augment when needed...there are some orchestra standards that require 2 tubas, so the 2nd will be hired from the on-call list [Le Sacre, Also Sprach Zarathustra]



> If a score needs a *euphonium*: is it played by the tubist, or does the orchestra hire a euphonist?


Generally, euphonium, Baritone horn, Tenor Horn [Mahler7] parts will be played by a trombonist - often the assistant principal, or one of the section members....for example - When I heard Chicago play Mahler 7 in Boston - the big tenor horn solo was played by Mike Mulcahy [Trbne II] - the assistant first played trombone II.
This may vary - the orchestra may hire extra players to cover whatever parts are needed - Holst -Planets and Ein Heldenleben have extra tenor tuba parts...

perhaps the best known Baritone horn story comes from Reiner's recording of Pix @ Exhibition - 12/57 - At the morning recording sessions, Reiner had Arnold Jacobs, the great tubist, play the Ox-cart[Bydlo] solo on some different tubas...but he wasn't satisfied with the sound....it was close, but not quite - at the break he went to Robt. Lambert, the principal trombone -

FR:<<Do you have a baritone horn??>> RL: <<Yes, but it's not here, it's at home>> Reiner: <<Bring it this afternoon>>

Lambert had his wife bring it into town for the afternoon session - Lambert played the solo on baritone and that's what went on the recording....beautiful playing - probably the best baritone horn playing I've ever heard on that so frequently abused instrument!! The Fennell/EWE recordings feature some very fine playing as well.


----------



## Enthalpy

Thanks Heck148!

Wow, a trombonist playing a valved instrument... Some are used to, but maybe not all, so a composer writing a part for tenor horn should better avoid virtuosity show-offs.


----------



## Heck148

Enthalpy said:


> Thanks Heck148!
> 
> Wow, a trombonist playing a valved instrument... Some are used to, but maybe not all, so a composer writing a part for tenor horn should better avoid virtuosity show-offs.


Not necessarily....trombonists may play valve trombones on occasion... for pit orchestras, where space is limited and cramped...
Mahler 7 tenor horn solo is extensive and difficult..it is definitely a virtuoso showpiece... 
Holst tenor tuba part in Planets is pretty athletic as well...
Many low brass players are pretty flexible...Bass trumpet parts (Wagner Ring) may be played by trombonist as well...


----------



## mbhaub

Heck148 said:


> Mahler 7 tenor horn solo is extensive and difficult..it is definitely a virtuoso showpiece...
> Holst tenor tuba part in Planets is pretty athletic as well...


What's fascinates me about these two parts is that they are written in treble clef for a transposed B flat tenor horn. Trombonists are used to bass, tenor and occasionally alto clef, but to add the treble clef and the transposition issue presents whole new challenges - and respect!


----------



## Heck148

mbhaub said:


> What's fascinates me about these two parts is that they are written in treble clef for a transposed B flat tenor horn. Trombonists are used to bass, tenor and occasionally alto clef, but to add the treble clef and the transposition issue presents whole new challenges - and respect!


Maybe they play them on a C instrument, and read them in tenor clef + 2bs...?? ...or they just read the treble clef part??


----------



## mbhaub

I know from my band arranging days that there are elementary instrumental books for Baritone BC and Baritone TC. I imagine that most bone players learn the BC fingerings. A trumpet player who wants to take up baritone would learn the TC fingerings. But then any orchestra good enough to play the Mahler 7th will necessarily have top-notch pros who could do it however it's written. And I've heard that part slaughtered by pros in concert more than once! It's hard, no doubt. High, chromatic and some really weird intervals.


----------



## Heck148

mbhaub said:


> I know from my band arranging days that there are elementary instrumental books for Baritone BC and Baritone TC. I imagine that most bone players learn the BC fingerings. A trumpet player who wants to take up baritone would learn the TC fingerings. But then any orchestra good enough to play the Mahler 7th will necessarily have top-notch pros who could do it however it's written. And I've heard that part slaughtered by pros in concert more than once! It's hard, no doubt. High, chromatic and some really weird intervals.


Right, the treble clef parts are for relocated trumpet players who switch to baritone....I believe the baritone horn is perhaps the most abused instrument of all - so often played with really terrible sound - unfocused, fuzzy, airy, dull, "foo- foo/fwee-fwee" attacks/articulations....when played well it is a beautiful instrument, but alas, those examples are few and far between....
The tenor horn solo on M7 does get massacred, esp some of the older recordings...one I heard years ago - Swarovsky, Scherchen?? - the tenor horn was atrocious - sounded like an elephant with indigestion f*rting into an aluminum trash can!!
When I heard CSO play it, Mulcahy sounded great, very fine virtuoso playing, Molto esspressivo, great control....outstanding solo work...


----------



## fluteman

Enthalpy said:


> Hello everybody!
> 
> You know or noticed that the same symphonic orchestra has sometimes 2 flutes, oboes... and sometimes 5, with other instruments varying accordingly. Sometimes they play usual instruments, sometimes older or rare ones.
> 
> So my first question is: *how does the orchestra adapt?*
> 
> Small fraction of musicians on the permanent payroll, others hired temporarily?
> 
> The orchestra possesses the not-so-rare instruments not expected from the musicians (wagnertuben), and for a really rare instrument (cimbasso), it lends one and lets a musician play it? Or the orchestra hires for short a musician who plays and owns the rare instrument?
> 
> Thanks!


Another rarity is the wind machine used in Strauss's Alpine Symphony and a few other works. I doubt even Heck148 could find a player with his or her own. But perhaps the greatest holy grail of rare instruments are the four taxi horns George Gershwin chose for use in An American In Paris. The originals were lost, and later performances and recordings may not have faithfully reproduced what Gershwin had it mind. Check out this 1929 recording made under Gershwin's supervision. Anyone who has played or at least repeatedly heard the "modern" version will immediately notice the difference.


----------



## mbhaub

fluteman said:


> Another rarity is the wind machine used in Strauss's Alpine Symphony and a few other works. I doubt even Heck148 could find a player with his or her own. But perhaps the greatest holy grail of rare instruments are the four taxi horns George Gershwin chose for use in An American In Paris. The originals were lost, and later performances and recordings may not have faithfully reproduced what Gershwin had it mind. Check out this 1929 recording made under Gershwin's supervision. Anyone who has played or at least repeatedly heard the "modern" version will immediately notice the difference.


Actually, wind machines aren't that rare - most major orchestras and many minors own one. A lot of opera companies have them. And of course they can be rented. The plans to build one are readily available - and it's not for beginners! 




As artificial as a wind machine can sound, it's still preferable to electronic reproduction. In the last movement of Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite there's a storm with the required wind machine and despite the best efforts of the synthesizer crowd, the old beast still sounds best. It's hard to play, too! You need someone with really strong arms.

The taxi horns are easily available for rent and they can be purchased. One percussionist I know has spent hundreds of hours and god only knows how much money to make his ideal set. They sound great, and are in the correct pitches. Now he rents them out. There's been a lot of discussion in recent years about the pitches. The old standard, ABCD was apparently wrong - Gershwin labeled them that way (like 1 -2-3-4) but didn't mean literally the pitches of A, B, C, D.

Now you want something really weird, try getting the 12 car horns spanning an octave needed for Ligeti's opera Le Grande Macabre.


----------



## Enthalpy

Heck148 said:


> [...] the tenor horn was atrocious - sounded like an elephant with indigestion f*rting into an aluminum trash can!! [...]


Only on music forums do we get such accurate and detailed descriptions of sounds.


----------



## Enthalpy

One more thought about an instruments renting company:

In the Czech Republic, orchestras replace wagnertuben by tenor horns, or at least they have this reputation abroad. While I like both instruments, they bring a completely different sound! A continent-wide operating renting company could remedy that.


----------



## Heck148

Enthalpy said:


> One more thought about an instruments renting company:
> 
> In the Czech Republic, orchestras replace wagnertuben by tenor horns, or at least they have this reputation abroad. While I like both instruments, they bring a completely different sound! A continent-wide operating renting company could remedy that.


Interesting!! Wagner tubas are completely different from tenor or baritone horns...
Also, different musicians play them - Wagner tubas are played by French hornists, tenor tuba by trombonists...


----------



## mbhaub

There are Wagner tubas for rent. The LA Philharmonic owns a set and will loan them out when they're not using them. I'm pretty sure Seattle has a set, too, given their long Wagner traditions. They're expensive and just not used all that much. Some European made tenor horns have a sound close to the Wagner tuba, and since they're easier to get (and to play!) why not? Most audience members would never know the difference. It's kind of like playing scores with a part for Heckelphone. Most orchestras substitute a bass oboe and no one notices.


----------



## Enthalpy

If orchestras require instruments from the rental company independently, they may sometimes want more instruments than available. To reduce this risk, the company must possess more instruments than it rents out as a mean. But *how many more instruments are needed*?

I model it for each instrument of a kind by an independent probability p to be at some customer at some arbitrary time. Imperfect, but simple. If all orchestras want a tárogató for the national holiday, my model fails, and if the orchestras organize their concert according to the availability, the business is easier.

If the company has N instruments, default appears at N+1 requests, whose risk is p[sup]N+1[/sup]. This table tells for different N what p keeps the risk of default below 5% and how many instruments are in use as a mean.



Code:


 N     p     N*p
=================
 1   0.22   0.22
 2   0.37   0.74
 3   0.47   1.4
 4   0.55   2.2
 5   0.61   3.0
10   0.76   7.6
20   0.87  17
50   0.94  47
=================

This illustrates the necessary scale effect of this business. For an instrument to bring money half of the time, the company must have 4 of it, and customers for 2.2 instruments of this kind at any time. But if 17 customers want instruments of a kind at any time, possessing just 20 makes a default not quite common. So if offering cimbassi, alto clarinets and heckelphones, the company better operates continent-wide.

I had feared worse figures.

Marc Schaefer, aka Enthalpy


----------



## mbhaub

Ok. But what you have to realize is that few orchestras regularly program so much music that not having enough available is going to be an issue. Orchestras usually program at least one year ahead, and a savvy music director will make sure the equipment manager has a contract for rentals as early as can be. Odd sized clarinets can always be found at nearby universities. There's enough of the unusual in private hands and won't be a big battle. I own a theremin; I loan it out when asked, but it's not all that frequent and the rental fees I've collected haven't come close to paying for it. Same with my contrabassoon. Even at the $200/week I charge.


----------



## Enthalpy

Enthalpy said:


> [...] is p[sup]N+1[/sup]. This table tells [...]


Wrong distribution hence wrong figures. Sorry for that. I may come back with a better version.


----------



## Enthalpy

mbhaub said:


> [...] contrabassoon [...] $200/week I charge.


Hi mbhaub  a private company would not rent out that cheap. An industrial company wants return on investment in around 3 years, a capital company might accept 5+ years. If a contrabassoon costs 45 000 usd (many cost more) and brings money for 150 weeks in these 5 years, a company will charge 300 usd a week just to justify its investment, plus the work, the transport, the insurances, the profit, and everything I forget. I don't imagine cheaper than 600 usd a week.

Maybe years later, when rental has already paid the instrument, and competing companies have appeared, the fees could drop. A company renting to many customers could also expect often use of its instruments.

Whether the contrabassoon is a good choice? I think a company founder should ask the orchestras first. Baritone oboe, bass flute, bass trumpet, C contrabass sarrusophone...? Here in Europe, the cimbasso could make sense.


----------



## mbhaub

Well, you're wrong. They do rent them out for $200. I know players in LA and Las Vegas who have needed to rent contras from time to time for movie scoring sessions and recordings and such. The going rate is $150 - $250 per week. Here's one from Midwest Musical Imports in Minneapolis:









It's an older tall-boy contra that was purchased long ago, paid off long ago and now just makes money. Would anyone rent a $45,000 contra out? Maybe, but more likely a Fox, Mollenhauer, or Amati that costs a half or third of a Puchner or Heckel.


----------



## Enthalpy

Again. Better than on Mar 28, 2021.

==========

If orchestras independently require instruments from the rental company, they may sometimes want more instruments than available. To reduce this risk, the company must possess more instruments than it rents out as a mean. But *how many more instruments are needed*?

I model it with the binomial law. For an instrument of a given type, if K customers want it, each with probability p, the probability that x instruments are needed at a give time is p[sup]x[/sup](1-p)[sup]K-x[/sup]K!/[(K-x)!x!]. This supposes independent customers. If all orchestras want a tárogató for the national holiday, my model fails, and if the orchestras organize their concert according to the availability, the business is easier.

As I expected, the probability distribution for all customers together depends fundamentally on the mean number m = K*p of instruments rented out. Whether K=50 customers want an instrument with p=0.04, or 200 customers with p=0.01, or 1000 customers with p=0.002, changes the distribution very little.

I suppose the limit of this distribution for arbitrarily big K is known and has a name. I don't remember forgetting it, so I certainly didn't learn it. But in case the distribution isn't yet known, someone should compute it. It looks easy, I just don't feel like doing it. This unique distribution would be a decent approximation for K=50 and even K=20 here.

I programmed a dirty piece of software. It takes a mean number m = K*p of instruments rented out and a number of customers K. Its output tells on first line the probability that x instruments are leased out simultaneously, and on second line that 0, 1... or x instruments are. That second line is the probability that x instruments satisfy the customers. The appended archive contains the source, the console executable for x-86 on Win2k and a console shortcut to be adapted.
View attachment RentalMargin.zip


This table computed with the software tells for varied numbers x of available instruments the mean number m = K*p of instruments that can be rented out and the mean usage m/x of the instruments, if willing to satisfy 200 customers 95% of the time. Roughly 1 instrument more achieves 98% and 2 more 99%.



Code:


 x   m=K*p    m/x
==================
 1    0.36   0.36
 2    0.82   0.41
 3    1.37   0.46
 4    1.98   0.50
 5    2.63   0.53
10    6.23   0.62
20   14.3    0.72
==================

This illustrates the necessary scale effect of this business. For an instrument to bring money half of the time, the company must have 4 of it, and customers for 2 instruments of this kind at any time. But if 14 customers want instruments of a kind as a mean, possessing just 20 makes a default not quite common. So if offering cimbassi, alto clarinets and heckelphones, the company better operates continent-wide.

Marc Schaefer, aka Enthalpy


----------



## Enthalpy

mbhaub said:


> [..] purchased long ago, paid off long ago and now just makes money. Would anyone rent a $45,000 contra out? Maybe, but more likely a Fox, Mollenhauer, or Amati that costs a half or third of a Puchner or Heckel.


Interesting option! A new company too can buy used instruments made by less expensive manufacturers and offer cheaper rental. It depends only on what customers prefer, to be asked at or before the company creation.

Car rental companies prefer recent vehicles from reputable brands. Their rational would be interesting. Maybe this saves on maintenance. Instrument differ, however, in that they are built to play for a century.


----------



## Enthalpy

What about the *kontraforte*? Could an orchestra take one for one week and hope the contrabassoonist plays a simple score on it? I read the fingerings differ.

This would be a useful offer to all conductors who lament not hearing the contrabassoon in some score. Call instrumentsareus.com, get a kontraforte, hear the score at last.


----------



## mbhaub

There are so few Kontrafortes out there. I wonder how many have been made. They're built to order. I know a player in the US who has one, and in fact has loaned it out to friends to give it a try. Learning the fingerings isn't a problem. The reeds are different, but there are places to get those now. Some conductors don't like the sound and prefer the traditional contra. Yes, the contra is easily buried, but sometimes its effect is that it can be felt more than heard. Many times I get comments from players clear across the orchestra that they could feel my contra on the floor even in the loudest passages. There are some makes of contras that can project much better than others, too. The composer/conductor Bernard Herrmann despised the "opera model" contras - the commonly used paper clip design and far preferred the "tall boy" upright models that are easier to hear. Watch the climactic scene in Royal Albert Hall in the HItchcock movie "The Man Who Knew Too Much". Herrmann is conducting and sticking out of the orchestra is this huge black serpent - the contra that Herrmann liked.


----------



## Enthalpy

The Kontraforte is a big commercial success from Eppelsheim. His most customers seem to be individuals willing to pay a few 10 000 usd for a fantastic toy, rather than orchestras. (I know Benedikt and he's a nice guy, so don't expect from me any sort of impartial opinion about his instruments whatsoever).

Yes, the sound differs, quite a bit. The players mention that early reeds were inadequate, newer designs give a better sound.

The upright contrabassoon looks nice and it resembles more a bassoon.


----------



## Enthalpy

The bass clarinet goes down to Eb or to C depending on the model. In US wind bands, models to Eb seem common, while I see only models to C in European orchestras.

So, can a composer or arranger safely assume that *US symphonic orchestras find easily 1 or 2 bass clarinets down to C*?


----------



## mbhaub

No. Never assume anything about instruments. Although professional players likely have, or can borrow, a Bass Clar with the low-C extension, in smaller orchestras and out of the way places there's no guarantee. It's like the contrabassoon with a low-A. There are very few of those around, so orchestrate at your own risk.


----------



## Enthalpy

And what's the most probable outcome if a composer writes a *flugelhorn* part in symphonic music?

Played on a trumpet
Played on a cornett
Played on a flugelhorn by a trumpet player, sounds like a trumpet
Played on a flugelhorn by a trumpet player, sounds nicely dark
Played on a flugelhorn by a hired flugelhorn player


----------



## Vasks

As long as one of the orchestra's trumpet members owns/has access to a fluegel, he/she will have learned how to get the appropriate "dark" sound.

If none of the section members has access to a fluegel, then the cornet is your next best bet and mark the passage(s) "_with a dark tone_"

If none have access to a cornet, then it will be played on a trumpet. Call for a B-flat trumpet since it's a tiny bit darker than a C trumpet.


----------



## mbhaub

Just depends. Are there trumpet parts as well as a flugel part? Then hire a separate flugel player. If there's no need for a special player, most principals I know either a) own a flugal, or b) would borrow one from someone who has one. If the conductor doesn't give a hoot, play it on trumpet. When that has happened to me, I asked the player to put a bag over the bell to darken the sound. What bag? A Crown Royal Canadian Whisky bag which are also very popular with percussionists.


----------



## Enthalpy

(Drifting away from the topic, but just shortly)

What if 2 clarinettists or 20 violinists must play a trill in an orchestra:

Everyone plays at his pace, or
They agree on some pace for the trill, like 1/16, or
Only one musician plays the trill?
Thanks!


----------



## mbhaub

It's random - sometimes a fast trill, sometimes slower - but usually not together. That's a measured tremolo. There are some things where say two clarinets start a trill slowly together, accelerate keeping it in sync. Takes practice.


----------



## Enthalpy

How difficult is it to get a *baritone saxophone in a symphonic* orchestra? I've listened to a few saxophonists appointed by orchestras, they use to play the alto and tenor, often the soprano too, but the baritone looks rare. A baritone would be available from each band or jazz band, but then a nice round soft classical sound isn't guaranteed.


----------



## prlj

Enthalpy said:


> How difficult is it to get a *baritone saxophone in a symphonic* orchestra? I've listened to a few saxophonists appointed by orchestras, they use to play the alto and tenor, often the soprano too, but the baritone looks rare. A baritone would be available from each band or jazz band, but then a nice round soft classical sound isn't guaranteed.


If a piece calls for Bari sax, then the composer wants a Bari sax tone...no need to seek out a "nice round soft classical sound." Bring on the grit! We're doing An American In Paris next month, and we are hiring three sax players, all with jazz backgrounds, because that's how it's going to sound authentic. (One doubles, and two triples.)

Here's the relevant list from the score. (We're using the new Critical edition, produced by the Gershwin Initiative)


----------



## Enthalpy

While most baritone saxophonists sound very hard, I don't want to call that "the" baritone sound.

Think of Gerry Mulligan in the jazz area. Or listen to that classical baritone:
tJ6XzlzEj0I
I claim a classical piece has a right to be played with a nice sound, including on a baritone saxophone. But the on-demand saxophonists linked to symphonic orchestras rarely mention the baritone.


----------



## prlj

You're getting into some qualitative and vague language, with phrases like "nice sound" or "sound very hard." The Bari sounds like a Bari...and it has a wide range of tones. But if a composer specifically calls for it, like Gershwin did, he knows that it's going to be some version of that Bari sound. If he want a softer reed tone there, he'd call for Bass Clarinet, for example. 

A player isn't going to just come in and honk away at double forte through the whole piece, of course.


----------



## mbhaub

prlj said:


> A player isn't going to just come in and honk away at double forte through the whole piece, of course.


You hope so anyway. A number of years ago I was hired to play a gig on bassoon. They put me right next to a bari player who did exactly that - honk away at ff. A sound like Boots Randolph is a good description. There was absolutely no point of me or the bass clarinet player being there, so we got up and left. These "Praise Orchestras" can be very unmusical.


----------



## prlj

mbhaub said:


> These "Praise Orchestras" can be very unmusical.


Ah, well that's a whole different beast altogether!


----------



## Enthalpy

Can I reasonably hope that every symphonic orchestra, or at least every professional one, has two equipped bass clarinettists available?


----------



## Heck148

Enthalpy said:


> Can I reasonably hope that every symphonic orchestra, or at least every professional one, has two equipped bass clarinettists available?


Yes, each major orchestra has a designated bass clarinetist on the roster....this player may at times play clarinet, but bass cl is the main gig....there will be an on call list, and certainly a first-call musician for bass clarinet....ottomh, "Rite of Spring", a repertoire standard, calls for 2 bass clarinets, "soli" both parts...


----------



## Enthalpy

And most orchestra clarinettists seem to own and play a bass clarinet too, don't they?
I see records on the bass from varied soprano orchestra clarinettists.
Plus, the appeal from the bass must be irresistible for any clarinettist who could spare the bucks. Not even so expensive, far less than a bassoon.


----------



## Heck148

Enthalpy said:


> And most orchestra clarinettists seem to own and play a bass clarinet too, don't they?


Doubtful, unless the clarinest is a freelancer....


----------



## mbhaub

And most clarinetists I know loathe playing bass clarinet. Which is too bad, because the bass clarinet has some terrific solos in music from Wagner, Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Beach, Schmidt and others. As to cost: a professional quality bass clarinet is very, very expensive and can easily match a bassoon in cost.


----------



## Heck148

mbhaub said:


> ....As to cost: a professional quality bass clarinet is very, very expensive and can easily match a bassoon in cost.


Really?? $40-50K for a bass clarinet?? is that right??!!


----------



## mbhaub

Well, no. But...a top of the line Buffet or Selmer bass clarinet can easily set you back $15,000 - $16,000 or so which is around the price of less expensive pro models of bassoons from Fox, Moosman, Puchner, Schreiber and such. I guess there is no bass clarinet equivalent of a Heckel which will have astronomical pricing...and a long wait to get.


----------



## Enthalpy

mbhaub said:


> And most clarinetists I know loathe playing bass clarinet.


Good to know! The French clarinettists I know just love the bass.



mbhaub said:


> As to cost: a professional quality bass clarinet is very, very expensive and can easily match a bassoon in cost.


13k€ for Buffet-Crampon's Tosca in Germany
thomann.de
US customers probably add some 20% import tax, and then you're at 15k€, depending on the currency rate.
I had seen it at 8-10k€ recently but prices for music instruments spiked last year.
The Tosca has the sound I prefer. I can't tell about ease of emission, ergonomics, durability nor anything else. But we're definitely speaking about a top professional instrument. That's quite a bit cheaper than a top Püchner or Heckel bassoon.

Fun (for the others): German clarinettists use to play the Oehler system and have a dilemma when adopting the bass. Oehler bass are scandalously expensive (and not so good to my ears), so most often, they switch to the Boehm system for the bass and play both, which can't be easy.


----------



## mbhaub

Speaking of bass clarinets... many, many orchestral bass clarinet parts are written for a instrument in A, not the standard B-flat instrument. I know that a couple of A bass clarinets were made; Wagner had them produced and used them. But why didn't Buffet, Selmer, or others make A instruments? For a player, purchasing a pair of basses would be really expensive and the physical aspect of having two on stage would be problematic. But still, some parts in A are just really hard to do on a B-flat instrument when you have to constantly play a half-tone lower. At the professional level it's not a problem, but in amateur and community groups it is. I played a concert with Amy Beach symphony a couple of years ago where the bass clarinet player was totally out of her league with that very important part. I entered the whole part into Finale and then, presto chango, transposed it down to B flat clarinet and the key signatures were a nightmare - but she did better!


----------



## Monsalvat

While we are on the topic of transposing, can anyone comment on the horn parts for the Brahms symphonies? He wrote for natural horns I believe, so each part has the key of the instrument specified (horn in E, horn in F, horn in C, horn in D, etc.). But most symphony orchestras don’t bother and use French horns in F with valves (or double F/B flat instruments). Does this make the parts harder to play? Does it alter the sound significantly? Is it common for libraries to have both versions, and who performs the transposition? I have played a B flat trumpet and flugelhorn but not professionally so I would expect that playing the E minor symphony on an F instrument might pose difficulties. Is this correct?


----------



## RobertJTh

Monsalvat said:


> While we are on the topic of transposing, can anyone comment on the horn parts for the Brahms symphonies? He wrote for natural horns I believe, so each part has the key of the instrument specified (horn in E, horn in F, horn in C, horn in D, etc.). But most symphony orchestras don’t bother and use French horns in F with valves (or double F/B flat instruments). Does this make the parts harder to play? Does it alter the sound significantly? Is it common for libraries to have both versions, and who performs the transposition? I have played a B flat trumpet and flugelhorn but not professionally so I would expect that playing the E minor symphony on an F instrument might pose difficulties. Is this correct?


The way I understand it (and if I'm wrong please correct me, I'm not an orchestral musician) is that the parts were mostly played on valved instruments even in Brahms' own days (since the natural horn went out of fashion after ca. 1840-50), but adjustable/replaceable crooks were used to alter the keys.

One would expect that transposing the parts for modern horns in F will alter the sound, and I guess it does. Take the opening of the 2nd symphony: played on a horn in D it will sound more brightly than on an F horn because in the latter case, the player plays the whole passage a minor third lower than Brahms notated it, which takes off a bit the brilliance of the tone.
Same for the allegretto of the 3rd symphony, the horn solo played as notated (on a horn in C) uses the high register up to Bb so it sounds brilliant, maybe even somewhat strained, while on a modern F-horn it sounds effortlessly in the middle register, with everything transposed down a fourth.

Theoretically the transpositions could lead to notes being impossible or very hard to play, but Brahms never used horns higher than G, so there are no upwards transpositions higher than a major second.
Of course it can be annoying for the modern player to have to play in weird keys, for instance in B major when the part, notated for a horn in E is in C major.


----------



## Enthalpy

The mere presence of valves changes the sound of a brass instrument.
Also, a shorter instrument has a more brilliant sound for the same heard note height.

More subtle: horn players used stopped notes to play outside the harmonic series of the instrument, and these notes sound differently. A priori a drawback, but composers (1) wrote for combinations of several horns (2) tried to use purposefully the different sound of stopped notes. A horn player would use the valves today (I suppose so!), which removes the stopped sound. That would make a big difference. This is specific to the horn, not the trumpet.


----------



## Monsalvat

So are there recordings of the Brahms symphonies done with natural horns? Have they been performed that way by any major conductors? Do period/HIP conductors use natural horns since that's what is in the score, or valved horns which were commonly used even in Brahms's time? When Brahms conducted his symphonies, do we know if he insisted on natural horns? 

Looking through the liner notes from John Eliot Gardiner's Brahms cycle, it does seem that he used natural horns in his Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique.

Good point about the stopped notes; I was fortunate enough to see a demonstration of this once with a skilled horn player and a valveless instrument. Each note in the scale sounds differently, not to mention the overall change in timbre one might expect. 

Not that this matters much to my enjoyment of the Brahms symphonies, but I'm feeling a bit inquisitive. Thanks for the insight.


----------



## mbhaub

A natural horn has a very different sound than now common F horn. Despite the availability of valved instruments, Brahms wrote specifically for natural horns because he wanted that particular color - they are brighter, lighter and more aggressive in tone. He was a master orchestrator; there are no errors in the horn parts. He knew exactly what notes were possible for any given crook. His contemporary, Mahler, used the valved F horn because he knew that the complexity of his music would make changing out crooks an impossible feat. Any professional horn player will have no (or little) problem playing horn parts in any key on an F instrument. Part of their training is to learn all those transpositions. They don't think about it. Amateurs are a different situation and there are several sources that they can obtain parts for the standard repertoire re-written for horn in F. And yes, sometimes it puts them in very uncomfortable keys. Most horn players in orchestras now use a double horn: has a B-flat side, too. Horn playing is extraordinarily complex and there aren't enough really great players to go around.


----------



## Monsalvat

mbhaub said:


> A natural horn has a very different sound than now common F horn. Despite the availability of valved instruments, Brahms wrote specifically for natural horns because he wanted that particular color - they are brighter, lighter and more aggressive in tone. He was a master orchestrator; there are no errors in the horn parts. He knew exactly what notes were possible for any given crook. His contemporary, Mahler, used the valved F horn because he knew that the complexity of his music would make changing out crooks an impossible feat. Any professional horn player will have no (or little) problem playing horn parts in any key on an F instrument. Part of their training is to learn all those transpositions. They don't think about it. Amateurs are a different situation and there are several sources that they can obtain parts for the standard repertoire re-written for horn in F. And yes, sometimes it puts them in very uncomfortable keys. Most horn players in orchestras now use a double horn: has a B-flat side, too. Horn playing is extraordinarily complex and there aren't enough really great players to go around.


Thank you so much!


----------



## Enthalpy

My next question (but feel fee to continue on the others!):
*How (un)common are water drums?*
I heard them only once, made of capsized calabash halves, where the air amount tunes the height, that time two chromatic octaves, and played with mallets. They have a nice sound, deep and powerful, with longer sustain than for instance timpani. And I was happy to try them, boom boom boom. Youtube has very few decent examples:
wul-CiPN5vk - NWYnC6AwNkQ&t=9s


----------

