# OK, following up on the idea, will robots take over the sym orch



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I just posted a comment on a topic about pieces that are *off kilter*, meaning *unusual, odd, yet highly interesting*..Well if its too odd, who really wants to listen.


Which brought up the thoughts, after seeing the robotic playing a piano,,,,
and I said on the Off Kilter topic,,,standrads must be maintained.
The idea came to mind,,,what will be the future of orchestras in say, 50, and 100 yrs from now.


That is to say,,,will orchestra s be able to matdch some of the great orchestras from the Golden Era.
Bayreuth , Berlin, Columbia, Philharmonia, BBC, the great Russian orchestras, The Great French orchestras under Martinon. 
I do know Salonen madea stunning recording of Sibelius Kullervo with the Los Angeles, which surprised me on the level of performance. 


There is so much new post modern jmuisc coming on line. Will orchestras devote energies to most new music, , or modern composers, or pre mod?


Will be interesting to see how the great orchestras divide up their energies over the next 100 yrs.


This is the Q.


Are the youths of today , prepared to meet the standards of previous great orchestras. 
To me, its neither here nor there, as all my favorite composers have been recorded in glorious colors and with power, dynamics.


But for the live audiences, here is where there may be discrepancies, and debilities to deliver..


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I hope it never happens. Computer generated symphonic music or even piano music is sterile, like a "perfect" studio album but worse. There is no life in it.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

As I said before, there is such a thing as musicianship, which I have a hard time believing AI is on the verge of duplicating.

As for "great orchestras," they have a tendency to self-duplicate over time. If you grow up in Vienna, teething on the VPO, when you are good enough to join, you will perpetuate its sound more likely then not.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I hope it never happens. Computer generated symphonic music or even piano music is sterile, like a "perfect" studio album but worse. There is no life in it.


This is partly what I am asking, If post modern music gains a strong hold over budding youths in the orchestral arts, will their energies be diverted into seeking more often post mod music and thus rendering great CM, tried and proven, to be tossed by the wayside. 
Will a orch in the future be able to perform a great Bruckner, Mozart sym? 
What about a Pettersson sym? Schnittke's music to be replaced by post modernism.

The youths of tomorrow will have to make up their own mind where to place resources.

I fear Szymanowski will be shuttered in a dark corner,, his glory never seeing the sun shine of a great performance. 
The music of Henze,,,*not modern enough,,sorry, we have no further interest...*. 
the future could be bleak for music which has been neglected these past 100 years. 
This world is in a state of decline. 
Be prepared for the worst, and hopeful if you wish.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

paulbest said:


> This is partly what I am asking, If post modern music gains a strong hold over budding youths in the orchestral arts, will their energies be diverted into seeking more often post mod music and thus rendering great CM, tried and proven, to be tossed by the wayside.


I suppose if the masses come to prefer computer-generated music, the real music may well fall by the wayside. Ugh!


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

paulbest said:


> ...
> Which brought up the thoughts, after seeing the robotic playing a piano,,,,
> and I said on the Off Kilter topic,,,standrads must be maintained.
> The idea came to mind,,,what will be the future of orchestras in say, 50, and 100 yrs from now....


I know of no reason why artificial intelligent (AI) systems couldn't eventually match human musical ability in composing, conducting, or performance. The assumption I've always made was that AI will surpass human achievement in essentially all fields. The question is when will that happen. I don't view present AI or robotic systems as very close to matching human achievement so comparing robotic performance to humans now won't tell us much.



paulbest said:


> This is partly what I am asking, If post modern music gains a strong hold over budding youths in the orchestral arts, will their energies be diverted into seeking more often post mod music and thus rendering great CM, tried and proven, to be tossed by the wayside.
> Will a orch in the future be able to perform a great Bruckner, Mozart sym?
> What about a Pettersson sym? Schnittke's music to be replaced by post modernism.


In every field I know, present achievement surpasses past achievement. There are many more people today than in past times and the population increase will likely continue. The standard of living will likely increase significantly such that every person will have the opportunity to study music using the 
best study methods. Orchestras and other ensembles ought to improve and be better able to perform music than those of the present or past. Hopefully orchestras will include some modern, contemporary, and future works in their canon so possibly there could be fewer Classical or Romantic works performed (new music will replace some older music).

Certainly orchestras will perform Mozart and Bruckner as well as or better than earlier ones. Some might start to include more Schnittke's works, but given the competition, lesser works like Pettersson symphonies will no longer be heard.

By the way, that last part is a joke.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

The standard of living is decreasing . An A.I. teacher of music is apt to be the lessor standard , and yet acceptable . Students of A.I. will be artificially intelligent . Likely , they will revolt . I think I've met a time-traveler from the future , well , she seemed strangely biological but fine and in balance . But like , she had no belly-button . Ok , what's the future ? It will relate to us with a passion .


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

I predict the *Sympocalypse* because we have learned nothing from the ancient Krell. At the point where AI perfects symphonic music monsters from the Id will be unleashed utterly destroying our civilization. Life will have no key. Time will have no signature. And a tone row will not be respected in it's own field.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

hum along long a hum


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Tikoo Tuba said:


> The standard of living is decreasing . An A.I. teacher of music is apt to be the lessor standard , and yet acceptable . Students of A.I. will be artificially intelligent . Likely , they will revolt . I think I've met a time-traveler from the future , well , she seemed strangely biological but fine and in balance . But like , she had no belly-button . Ok , what's the future ? It will relate to us with a passion .


As I see them I'm increasingly intrigued, and to a greater degree confused, by your posts.

Are you a tuba player?


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## Swosh (Feb 25, 2018)

Funny. Having experienced NotePerformer sounds, I may actually prefer them sometimes to many live performances. AI never plays off tempo, you can apply the exact notations you wish to any music you wish and have it sound excellent with reverb, the sound of an instrument is able to be duplicated, etc. I find NotePerformer not scary, but liberating as a composer and music lover. You can plug your own compositions or your favorite scores into software to make them sound however you want. Nothing compares to hearing music in a concert hall, of course. But for intimate songs (chamber music), it can certainly sound great. I can post some examples of NotePerformer if you wish!


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

mmsbls said:


> I know of no reason why artificial intelligent (AI) systems couldn't eventually match human musical ability in composing, conducting, or performance. The assumption I've always made was that AI will surpass human achievement in essentially all fields. The question is when will that happen. I don't view present AI or robotic systems as very close to matching human achievement so comparing robotic performance to humans now won't tell us much.
> 
> In every field I know, present achievement surpasses past achievement. There are many more people today than in past times and the population increase will likely continue. The standard of living will likely increase significantly such that every person will have the opportunity to study music using the
> best study methods. Orchestras and other ensembles ought to improve and be better able to perform music than those of the present or past. Hopefully orchestras will include some modern, contemporary, and future works in their canon so possibly there could be fewer Classical or Romantic works performed (new music will replace some older music).
> ...


Interesting ideas, I jumbled a lot of ideas together, convoluted are the hallmarks of most of what I wrote,.\I guess what I was asking,,will there be another Bruno Walter/Columbia style orch in Mozart's late syms? Celibidache 's Munich in Brukner/Mahler syms? 
There are great orchestras/conductors here with us today,,,but how much longer will this high standard continue? 
this is the mighty Q. 
also will future generations hold as high a value on past great masters? 
Beethoven continues to remain strong,,but for how much longer?

Mahler has a powerful resurgence , how much longer?

As we all know this world is changing its habits/beliefs/values.

I just cked another classical forum, Henze has no thread in composers section...,,,if I go to the Berlin SO schedule, will I see Henze represented on the 2019/2020 program? 
Fast forward another 10 yrs,,Which composers will make the programs schedule?
50 years from now?
100 years from now?

No one can predict what will happen. Which is the reason I promote who I feel needs a voice.

Which is also why I really despise all things post modern. As it only gets in the way of the more creative composers.

*lesser works like Pettersson*…
anyone who knows how to read a score will tell you, its masterly written . Can you name me one symphonist in history whose music contains more feeling and expression than does Pettersson, in terms of depth, breathe, height, width, real emotional level. That is to say, a level which makes music hold true real lasting values? 
IOW in line with how Vivaldi, Mozart, Ravel wrote music.

Amazing how folks think they know something about Pettersson, when in fact they only reveal their lack of familiarity with his music, = they are speaking out their,,,you know what.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

my last post should get the ,,Hornets a buzzzin…..


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

Minor Sixthist said:


> As I see them I'm increasingly intrigued, and to a greater degree confused, by your posts.
> 
> Are you a tuba player?


Tuba is a word in Universal Language . *Too -bah *. Translated : this spirit is most relevant to space bond . _Oh , I don't care where we exactly are ._


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

paulbest said:


> *lesser works like Pettersson*…
> anyone who knows how to read a score will tell you, its masterly written . Can you name me one symphonist in history whose music contains more feeling and expression than does Pettersson, in terms of depth, breathe, height, width, real emotional level. That is to say, a level which makes music hold true real lasting values?
> IOW in line with how Vivaldi, Mozart, Ravel wrote music.
> 
> Amazing how folks think they know something about Pettersson, when in fact they only reveal their lack of familiarity with his music, = they are speaking out their,,,you know what.


Paul, I did say the last part of my post was a joke. What did you think I was referring to?


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Tikoo Tuba said:


> Tuba is a word in Universal Language . *Too -bah *. Translated : this spirit is most relevant to space bond . _Oh , I don't care where we exactly are ._


Tuba, or not tuba, _that_ is the question: whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous tacits, or to take arms against a sea of stuck valves and by oiling them, make them somehow stickier...


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

mmsbls said:


> Paul, I did say the last part of my post was a joke. What did you think I was referring to?


My bad, real bad,,i mis-interpreted , mis read your post,,i thought you implied my past part wasa ...joke...so I can running to the defense of my arguments,,,,apologies,,,please delete my counter response,,,,i am abit over sensitive about Pettersson, the neglect and all....

OK, I see you were being sarcastic,,,hyperbolic. ,,,yeah so honestly,,do you think orchestras in the future will be able to handle Schnittke?
and /or Pettersson?

Will interest develop in these 2 modern masters,,or will things deteriorate over the course of the next 100 years? 
This is the Q which I am a outsider about.... Those in the active classical community might have a better hunch as to where we are headed

Yeah,,,Schn


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I hope it never happens. Computer generated symphonic music or even piano music is sterile, like a "perfect" studio album but worse. There is no life in it.


Only because of poor sequencing.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Swosh said:


> Funny. Having experienced NotePerformer sounds, I may actually prefer them sometimes to many live performances. AI never plays off tempo, you can apply the exact notations you wish to any music you wish and have it sound excellent with reverb, the sound of an instrument is able to be duplicated, etc. I find NotePerformer not scary, but liberating as a composer and music lover. You can plug your own compositions or your favorite scores into software to make them sound however you want. Nothing compares to hearing music in a concert hall, of course. But for intimate songs (chamber music), it can certainly sound great. I can post some examples of NotePerformer if you wish!


I've never heard an artificial performance that comes anywhere near the real thing. Perhaps you can share a mock up you think is good.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

It will be interesting for those, who live by that time, to see when AI achieves temper and emotion. Because this will make it human and imperfect.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I had hoped to snuggle in the idea that humnas are not 888 as human888 as in previous generations. 

I mean we can read all the headlines about the ,,,advancement/achievements ,,,of mankind,,,but if we look more closely into that,,,news,,,things might seem what the appear on the surface. 

Now we've also heard the old cliché ,,,people are the same in any epoch,,,nothing is different,,same old,,same old,,,true and perhaps not so true.
What I am gettying at is, the influences of modern life on the youngsters today,,,The ones who will eventually fill the orchestral seats,,,will these new philharmonic players be sensitive to the greats of the past,,,or will they decide for themselves,,who is great,,who is not so great...will they veer more toward post mod composers,,as a vote of rejecting *the old traditions*,,and even shutting out many great modern composers from performance on the program....,,,this is kind of what I wanted to say in the OP, but was fearly, hesitant, as not to be disruptive here, nor too flaming. 

I just could not imagine a program where nearly all the works are from this post modern era composers. 
It would be a shock and a travesty. 
Just really a tragedy , a time of woes and sorrors. 

I am speaking ina distant time,,,as we know , the romantics, classical era composers continue to dominate the schedule,,and that's not going away anytime soon..
Hillary Hahn has been traveling the world over playing the Sibelius VC , past 5 yrs and she mentioned ona YT vid, her schedule is booked 5 yrs in advance,,,
So the great neo- romantic work from Sibelius will remain for another 5 years, sustained by Hillary Hahn. 

I would more prefer the 2nd Viennese , two great Vc's, instead,,or maybe the Schnittke, or even the Henze , or Pettersson VC's,,,but it is not to be. 
She is making sure the romantics remain alive and healthy....

I hope after then 5 yrs is finished she devotes herself to only modern master pieces, only, No Bach, no classical era, no romantic era works. ,,and definitely no post modern VC's.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Many years ago I was acquainted with people developing the first high end digital synthesizer, the Synklavier. I remember being demonstrated its ability to sample sounds -- say, the horn -- and then play that particular instrument back through the keyboard.
I remember them standing back proudly, while to my ear it was onviously synthesized: attacks too perfect, decay too regular, pitch dead on and not least bit wavery or irregular. I guess I'm sure you could eventually program in the human element, but you've still lost something.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

I don't remember if it was ballet or opera but I read where they might start using virtual reality in the background. What will be bad (beyond the obvious) is that they might begin to write these works assuming the new background.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

I've had to use samples for demos in my pro work for many years and they are getting better and better. The high end samples can be programmed to create convincing mock-ups, but one does need a thorough grounding in orchestration, along with knowing plenty of tricks and having many options, to get the absolute best use out of them.
Parameters in performance such as vibrato, dynamics, accents, crescendo and diminuendo, tremelo, harmonics, flutter and much more are all programmable now and one imagines options will increase and become even more realistic as computing power develops.
From a composers pov, sampled instruments have value in that one can reasonably assess the audible result of music on the page. The danger for unsuspecting composers, or those who lack proficiency is that the samples and their limitations actually dictate the music written. This is evidenced by the similarity of media music, the majority of which is written by musicians who have a computer and samples, but no appropriate musical training. People are writing dissertations on the impact of samples on composing such is their influence.
Ultimately, I see composers of serious art music writing, programming and self publishing on-line if Moore's Law, or something similar after the silicon age continues the current exponential march.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Freaky coincidence...having just posted above, I received this email which you might find interesting.......

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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

IOW if the comp programs become more sophisticated , and some new post mods use at least some of the software in their works,,,they do not have to pay a orch, conductor nor publishing firm....classical music on the cheap,,and perhaps sounds nearly as good as a real live orch,,,that is a distant possibility.

what I also wanted to bring up in the OP, but could not, as lack of space,,,the OP goes on for 1000+ words,,,
so this is like part 2 of my OP query.
Take Hillary Hahn's schedule,
Sibelius, 4 shows in Chicago, JUST Sibelius on the ticket,,all sold out I am sure,,,they will come from hundreds of miles around to witness The Legendary Hillary Hahn, LIVE From Chicago. FOUR SHOWs sold out, only the Sibelius!!!
Her 2019 schedule was booked five years in advanced.
Look at her schedule worldwide, Sibelius/Bach, Mozart, Mendelssohn. 
Robotic?
At least that's my impression.

Look at David Oistrakh's schedule,,,both romantic and modern, ina season. 
Sibelius I consider romantic, touch of the modern,,,nah, 100 % romantic,,a work I once loved, now it bores me and grates on my nerves.

http://hilaryhahn.com/performances/


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