# Need help with 20th Century Composer Bracket



## JRFuerst (Apr 2, 2010)

So these are the 64 composers I was planning on using for the 20th century/modern bracket that will become live next week. I am requesting input on order and inclusion. I am putting them in order of how popular they are with the general public. 

Input is appreciated. Thanks!

1.	Bernstein
2.	Copland
3.	Gershwin
4.	Ravel
5.	Holst
6.	Stravinsky
7.	Prokofiev
8.	Shostakovich
9.	Bartok
10.	Barber
11. Glass
12.	Orff
13.	Hindemith
14.	Adams
15.	Walton
16.	Britten
17.	Cage
18.	Ives
19.	Khachaturian
20.	Kabelevsky
21.	Gorecki
22.	Boulez
23.	Reich
24.	Schoenberg
25.	Messiaean
26.	Rouse
27.	Varese
28.	Berg
29.	Poulenc
30.	Dutilleux
31.	Ligeti
32.	Berio
33.	Stockhausen
34.	Corigliano
35.	Gould
36.	Penderecki
37.	Takemitsu
38.	Schwantner
39.	Carter
40.	Part
41.	Crumb
42.	Schuman
43.	Tavener
44.	Ginestera
45.	Harrison
46.	Husa
47.	Schnittke
48.	Honneger
49.	Adler
50.	Kodaly
51.	Webern
52.	Milhaud
53.	Villa-Lobos
54.	Lutoslawski
55.	Aho
56.	Bolcom
57.	Harris
58.	Torke
59.	Andriessen
60.	Babbit
61.	Ades
62.	Partch
63.	Cowell
64.	Norgard


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

from no.55 onward , all names are unknown to me. if you see the composer guestbooks subforum, you'll see Glazunov, Szymanowski, Korngold, Ifubuke, Xenakis are recent talked names. and then Tan Dun, Roger Session ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_20th-century_classical_composers_by_birth_date


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

The fact that you don't have Janacek, Xenakis, Scriabin, Debussy, Nono, Ferrari, Rautuvaara, Gubaidulina, Riley, Birtwistle, Ferneyhough, Tippett, Feldman, Henze, and Hovhaness makes this an invalid list. Try to find space for a few of them.

The "seeding" is really not to my taste, but that is all right I suppose (vote them out!). The top 5 should not be seeded (IMO) even in the top 20. Surely #6-9 deserve this honor?

But then, West Side Story (not classical!), Fanfare for the Common Man, Rhapsody in Blue, and Bolero  - these are works that the public are indeed familiar with.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

No Diamond,Creston, or Mennin either. All very influential in American 20th century music. All three were very popular as well as (pardon the pun) instrumental in guiding and teaching as well.


And yes, Hovhaness is a definite name to be included.

Jim


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## MJTTOMB (Dec 16, 2007)

No Grofe. Pretty ironic considering he orchestrated one of the most popular editions of rhapsody in blue, and wrote the Grand Canyon suite, among other things.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

If you pit Prokofiev vs. Shostakovich, you would have some serious sparks flying, perhaps not good. Not Russians versus their own countrymen.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

handlebar said:


> No *Diamond*,Creston, or Mennin either. All very influential in American 20th century music. All three were very popular as well as (pardon the pun) instrumental in guiding and teaching as well.
> 
> And yes, Hovhaness is a definite name to be included.
> 
> Jim


To be fair, as great as Neil Diamond is, I wouldn't class him as a classical composer.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2010)

Argus said:


> To be fair, as great as Neil Diamond is, I wouldn't class him as a classical composer.


I hope you're kidding! The first name of handlebar's Diamond is David.

Otherwise, though JR does seem to have left the room, I'd ask the "bracket" of what? And "live" where? (And why arranged according to popularity with the general public? (Does the "general public" listen to any classical, ever? I mean knowingly. (Who is the "general public" and how do you know what it finds popular?)))


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I think that as long as Aho and Sven-Tuur are on the list, I'll be ok with it...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

No Richard Strauss??!!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Rautavaara and Salinen are missing.

And why seed Holst and Orff so high? Most people only heard one composition of each.

bernstein as #1 seed is a joke I hope.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Holmboe, Alwyn, Arnold, Lilburn, Schmidt, ........


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I think that Janáček, Scriabin, R. Strauss & Debussy were considered "straddle" composers (bridging the 19th & 20th century), and were excluded on that basis.

Would it be flippant to suggest Kurt Weill might be worthy of inclusion on such a list?!

And- in fairness, those who proffer additions might want to consider whom to exclude, to make room for their suggestions. For my part, I tenatively offer Rouse, Schwantner, Husa, Andriessen & Partch as names that can be dropped in favor of some of the suggestions mentioned above.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

So where do we place these "straddle" composers? 19th century? 20the century? Or they just don't count at all because they had the bad luck to have composed major works across the arbitrary century line? 

Yes... I thought of Weill... ad Debussy as well. And no Rachmaninoff?!!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

For my part, I tenatively offer Rouse, Schwantner, Husa, Andriessen & Partch as names that can be dropped in favor of some of the suggestions mentioned above

Seriously... I'd give up everyone and all of them for Rachmaninoff, Debussy, or Strauss.


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## JRFuerst (Apr 2, 2010)

Wow. Thanks for all the input so far. 

Here is some of my thinking for the lessen known composers:

Andriessen is one of Europe's most important minimalists (aside from Arvo Part and Gorecki)
Partch created his own instruments using a different turning
Cowell was the first to use the inside the piano technique and clusters
Norgard is Denmark's most important living composer (though I suppose he could be 21st Century rather than 20th)
Torke is a post-minimalist who was big in the 80s/90s but seems to have fallen off
Ades I suppose I could remove since he become famous in the 00s
And Bolcom is a Postmodernist

Hovhaness is really only known for the percussion thing and Mysterious Mountain. Though I suppose I could include him.

There appears to be a huge push for Janacek, Scriabin, R. Strauss and Debussy. And understandably for Rachmaninoff as well. Same with Rautuvaara. And perhaps Diamond. 

I was also toying with Piston and Hanson, but both aren't really played anymore, sadly. 

Therefore, how about I add:
Hovhaness
Janacek
Scriabin
R. Strauss
Debussy
Rachmaninoff
Rautuvaara
Diamond

and remove:
Andriessen
Partch
Cowell
Norgard
Torke
Ades
Bolcom
Babbit

Thoughts on those changes?

Also, as far as the seeding, on another forum it's been suggested that Gershwin might be more popular than Bernstein. Also, instead of seeding as what I think is popular, to do it by either date of birth, or alphabetically. 

Thoughts on seeding changes?

Thanks again for the input.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I'd like to echo *PostMinimalist*'s statement that lists and polls are best taken in the spirit of good fun, and it's best not to get too huffy about their direction. On that basis, I don't want to partcipate in a discussion concerning 'seeding,' as we could ask 100 different people and get 100 different opinions. Your last bracket pretty much came out in the wash... we had Beethoven, Brahms & Wagner as three of the Final Four! My advice is... go ahead and follow your own muse with seeding. It's _your_ soup, you have the ultimate right of the order of the ingredients!

Now (perhaps immediately proceeding to disregard my own advice) I have a strong opinion about this:


JRFuerst said:


> Therefore, how about I add:
> Hovhaness
> Janacek
> Scriabin
> ...


Keep in mind that what I'm about to say, I say *as a fan* of these two composers. Debussy and Richard Strauss, in particular, had vast creative output in the 19th century. I understand StLukes point about it seeming unfair to disregard the great 20th century works of these composers simply because they has content in the 19th. However, keep in mind, Strauss pretty much finished the Great Tone Poems (his most familiar works) before the turn of the century. Many of Debussy's most familiar pieces (Suite Bergamasque, Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun, Reverie) also date from the 19th century. So, when these composers inevitably get their (admittedly well-deserved) support in polling, people will advance these '20th century composers,' partly on the basis of the good vibes they get from their 19th century works! Somehow, that doesn't seem right to me...

One could try to ask the respondents to disregard the 19th century compositions of these composers while doing their voting. Unfortunately, that's a little like saying "the jury will disregard the previous statement." I'm sure it's an oft-used metaphor- but it was most prominently invoked by Judge Ito- it's like asking to unring a bell...

P.S.: I have no qualms about any of the suggested deletions.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I'm thinking that while one might call Rachmaninoff a twentieth-century composer and _technically_ be right, I think the previous poll hit the nail on the head by placing Rachmaninoff as a Romantic composer because that is the style in which he writes; there is nothing twentieth century about his fundamental sound. So I wouldn't place him as a twentieth century composer even though he was born at the right time.


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## JRFuerst (Apr 2, 2010)

I decided to seed the composers based on google search results as first name last name composer. I figured this is probably one way to make it in the realm of 'popularity' based on how many websites there are with 'Claude Debussy composer' compared to say 'Henri Dutilleux composer'. 

Debussy	1,240,000
Stravinsky	968,000
Ravel	901,000
Ives	822,000
Britten	627,000
Rachmaninoff	618,000
Gershwin	613,000
Copland	585,000
Shostakovich	560,000
R. Strauss	530,000
Prokofiev	491,000
Adams	472,000
Cage	448,000
Bernstein	390,000
Hindemith	315,000
Boulez	305,000
Glass	290,000
Messiaen	277,000
Webern	267,000
Milhaud	258,000
Kodaly	216,000
Orff	192,000
Villa-Lobos	171,000
Honneger	167,000
Bartok	164,000
Aho	148,000
Schoenberg	142,000
Scriabin	134,000
Reich	133,000
Berg	125,000
Adler	125,000
Berio	113,000
Barber	112,000
Diamond	107,000
Carter	104,000
Kabelevsky	97,400
Khachaturian	90,100
Penderecki	82,300
Walton	80,500
Husa	80,200
Lutoslawski	79,400
Part	75,300
Harris	73,400
Holst	72,700
Poulenc	63,400
Schnittke	62,100
Ginestera	62,000
Stockhausen	61,200
Takemitsu	56,900
Janacek	51,200
Harrison	48,400
Ligeti	47,600
Tavener	46,100
Varese	41,900
Corigliano	40,800
Schwantner	37,500
Crumb	37,400
Schuman	33,600
Gould	33,200
Rouse	24,600
Gorecki	21,000
Hovhaness	19,900
Duttileux	19,100
Rautavaara	17,900


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## MJTTOMB (Dec 16, 2007)

95K results for Ferde Grofe Composer, but still you seem to choose even the more obscure writers. Somewhat of a slap in the face to Grofe.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

Argus said:


> To be fair, as great as Neil Diamond is, I wouldn't class him as a classical composer.




Oh well. I tried.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

MJTTOMB said:


> 95K results for Ferde Grofe Composer, but still you seem to choose even the more obscure writers. Somewhat of a slap in the face to Grofe.


Feh.

I can more than double that up.

Results for "Kurt Weill Composer" =217K.

(I probably won't change anybody's mind, though.)


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## MJTTOMB (Dec 16, 2007)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Feh.
> 
> I can more than double that up.
> 
> ...


If you've heard Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue, you've heard Grofe's work. Grofe is the individual who orchestrated Gershwin's work.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

So who the winner of current Romantic bout?


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

MJTTOMB said:


> If you've heard Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue, you've heard Grofe's work. Grofe is the individual who orchestrated Gershwin's work.


Yup- I have a couple of different versions of _Grand Canyon Suite_ including one on cassette with Ormandy/Philadelphia. As I related in this post, I even inflicted _Atlantic Crossing_ upon my then naïve self. 
[I suppose I would have fared better with 'Mississippi Suite'-- hard to see how I could'a done worse.]

But honestly, perhaps neither of us made a case that was generally accepted. 
That's okay... it's still an acceptable diversion if we don't take it too seriously.


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## MJTTOMB (Dec 16, 2007)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Yup- I have a couple of different versions of _Grand Canyon Suite_ including one on cassette with Ormandy/Philadelphia. As I related in this post, I even inflicted _Atlantic Crossing_ upon my then naïve self.
> [I suppose I would have fared better with 'Mississippi Suite'-- hard to see how I could'a done worse.]
> 
> But honestly, perhaps neither of us made a case that was generally accepted.
> That's okay... it's still an acceptable diversion if we don't take it too seriously.


I personally love his work. He's no Copland, but he could out-write each and every one of us, to be certain. His work is perhaps somewhat bombastic, but it is no doubt exciting. The Cloudburst from his Grand Canyon Suite is a favorite piece of mine, parts of the work are genuinely frightening.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> For my part, I tenatively offer Rouse, Schwantner, Husa, Andriessen & Partch as names that can be dropped in favor of some of the suggestions mentioned above.


I'd keep Schwanter. There's many other names that could be included as well I suppose.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Why on earth go for the most popular with the general public? Hardly a soul listens to anything by Bernstein which was not 'West Side Story' or 'Candide' - or that very show music equilivent 'Chichester Psalms.' Drek, to use a word Lenny might have used.

Copland - "Fanfare for the Common Man' and 'Appalachian Spring, the suite, and the full orchestral one vs. the better and original chamber version.

I seriously do not get 'the point,' unless you want a top pops list of those popular classical composers, who are far from 'the best' composers.

oi vey iz mir.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Schreker
Zemlinsky
Both are huge
Scrabin died in 1915
OMG, and my name is not there!

Nikolai Myaskovsky, angry


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