# Overplayed Opera Minorpieces



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, we did neglected masterpieces - should we do overdone minorpieces? Operas you just can't get away from, even in Antarctica?

My vote: the Ring. Ha, ha. No, really. The Ring.

Oh all right. I take it back. Romeo and Juliet, by Gounod.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Gounod's Faust and Romeo & Juliette . They're bland, vapid, insipid , and totally uninteresting .
Pretty melodies do not a great opera make . Who needs them when there are so many far greater French operas? For example , Ariane &Barbe Bleue by Dukas, Le Roi Arthus by Chausson , Roussel's Padmavati,
Magnard's Guercoeur , Esclarmonde by Massenet, St. Francois D'Assise by Messiaen .


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Well, we did neglected masterpieces - should we do overdone minorpieces? Operas you just can't get away from, even in Antarctica?
> 
> My vote: the Ring. Ha, ha. No, really. The Ring.
> 
> Oh all right. I take it back. Romeo and Juliet, by Gounod.


_Hänsel und Gretel_. Does anyone remember a single other work Humperdinck wrote? (No peeking!) I rest my case.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> _Hänsel und Gretel_. Does anyone remember a single other work Humperdinck wrote? (No peeking!) I rest my case.


Königskinder. And I didn't peek. I have it on DVD (Jonas







) and CD (Klaus Florian







and I'm planning to get another CD version(Jonas







again)


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Königskinder.


OK. You got me there! :lol:

I still think _Hänsel und Gretel_ is overplayed and trite _(that is unless you are in the crucial 8-12 bracket!)_


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

For what it's worth, I've never even seen Hänsel und Gretel and, I didn't even know that Hänsel is spelled with an umlaut!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Hoffmann said:


> For what it's worth, I've never even seen Hänsel und Gretel...


That's understandable--you aren't in the crucial 8-12 bracket! :lol:


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## sparsity (Apr 10, 2012)

Tosca. Madama Butterfly.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Here we go in another bash thread.

BTW, i enjoy Faust very much. I'm one of the few here. Yes, it has pretty melodies also, but what's wrong with that?


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

dionisio said:


> Here we go in another bash thread.
> 
> BTW, i enjoy Faust very much. I'm one of the few here. Yes, it has pretty melodies also, but what's wrong with that?


I agree with you.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

dionisio said:


> Here we go in another bash thread.
> 
> BTW, i enjoy Faust very much. I'm one of the few here. Yes, it has pretty melodies also, but what's wrong with that?


I prefer Berlioz' Faust


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

tyroneslothrop said:


> OK. You got me there! :lol:
> 
> I still think _Hänsel und Gretel_ is overplayed and trite _(that is unless you are in the crucial 8-12 bracket!)_


The subject matter is a FAIRY TALE


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

dionisio said:


> Here we go in another bash thread.
> 
> BTW, i enjoy Faust very much. I'm one of the few here. Yes, it has pretty melodies also, but what's wrong with that?


No,you are not one of the few it's great stuff and so is Romeo and Juliet.
The failed operas trotted out by Superhorn don't compare with the possible exception of the Dukas.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> _Hänsel und Gretel_. Does anyone remember a single other work Humperdinck wrote? (No peeking!) I rest my case.


Have you seen the Met's Hansel and Gretel? See it first, then decide. I think you'll say, wait, this is good.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

dionisio said:


> Here we go in another bash thread.


Sorry.



> BTW, i enjoy Faust very much. I'm one of the few here. Yes, it has pretty melodies also, but what's wrong with that?


I like Faust myself ... although I'm sure there are those who can't stand it! I guess I just haven't seen it enough to get tired of it.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

tyroneslothrop said:


> _Hänsel und Gretel_. Does anyone remember a single other work Humperdinck wrote? (No peeking!) I rest my case.


How would the fact that someone had only composed a single memorable work be at all relevant to whether that work was overrated or not? How many books beyond _Don Qixote_ can most name by Cervantes. Thus _Don Quixote_ must be overrated? Personally, I love _Hansel and Gretel_... so did Richard Strauss, Mahler, Karajan and a lot of oters who knew something about music. I actually have rarely heard it mentioned on this board... or elsewhere... so how is it overrated?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

moody said:


> The subject matter is a FAIRY TALE


Personally, I don't think there's any correlation between whether a person enjoys fairy tales and any topic of importance. Opera is just entertainment.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Die Zauberbloodyflote

Le nozze di bloody Figaro

Il barbiere di bloody Siviglia

bloody Carmen

La bloody boheme

La bloody traviata

they're all good to amazing works. Can we get a break for even a season, though?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

deggial said:


> Die Zauberbloodyflote
> 
> Le nozze di bloody Figaro
> 
> ...


I see I asked the wrong question - what I should have said was: suppose your favorite opera house were to put on a dream season, in which you'd go to every production six times - what operas would be offered?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

you mean my own top 6? that's a parallel universe to the original question... che cosa?!


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Hansel and Gretel is a nice piece, but I think it does get overproduced. Conservatories and universities seem to like it because it's heavy of female roles, just as their departments are generally heavy on female singers.

I don't dislike Faust, but would like to see the Gounod version dialed down slightly in favor of more productions of the Boito and Berlioz versions. 

Romeo et Juliette may not be the strongest work, but I don't think it gets put on to the extent of being overplayed. The same applies to Werther, though maybe its just that the one production I have seen left me with a bad taste.

And after three different productions here last year (Lyric, COT, and Ravinia), the Flute has definitely lost some of its Magic for me.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

moody said:


> The subject matter is a FAIRY TALE


...and?

_Rusalka_ is a fairy tale. _Cenerentola_ is a fairy tale. _Cendrillon_ is the same fairy tale. _Turandot_ is, yes, a fairy tale.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Have you seen the Met's Hansel and Gretel? See it first, then decide. I think you'll say, wait, this is good.


No, and I won't even though I have it on my Met _Opera on Demand_ account. Why? Because it is in English and Humperdinck didn't compose it in English. And then, I won't watch the Solti Vienna H&G either. Why? Because it is lip-synched.

I do have the Davis ROH H&G:








... and hated it. 

Seriously folks- what redeeming features should I be finding in this opera? I find the score to be incredibly trite.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Hansel and Gretel is a marvellous piece. Sadly it has become the victim of idiot directors who try to show it's about child abuse or the like. It is a fairy tale opera with some delicious music. The argument that it's the composer's only 'hit' is illogical. How does that invalidate the piece that is a 'hit'?


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> How would the fact that someone had only composed a single memorable work be at all relevant to whether that work was overrated or not? How many books beyond _Don Qixote_ can most name by Cervantes. Thus _Don Quixote_ must be overrated?


Actually, in my opinion, yes. How many have read its 1000 pages? From _someplace else_, I learned that if you go to Spain, you'll find that it is mandatory reading for their schools, and yet most young Spaniards don't like it.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> I actually have rarely heard it mentioned on this board... or elsewhere... so how is it overrated?


You misread the title of this thread. The title is "Over*played* opera minorpieces" and not "Over*rated* opera minorpieces".

If you go to Operabase.com, you will see that globally, H&G is the 15th most played opera, ahead of such real masterpieces as _Tristan & Isolde_, _Turandot_, _Eugene Onegin_, and _Nabucco_. It is played more often than anything from Wagner, Strauss, Tchaikovsky, or Bellini. It is And if this isn't overplayed, what is? If it were just played 45% more world-wide, then it would pass _Don Giovanni _to be the 10th most played opera. Would that be considered overplayed?


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Hansel and Gretel is a marvellous piece. Sadly it has become the victim of idiot directors who try to show it's about child abuse or the like. It is a fairy tale opera with some delicious music. The argument that it's the composer's only 'hit' is illogical. How does that invalidate the piece that is a 'hit'?


I'm not arguing that it isn't a 'hit'. I'm arguing that it wouldn't be a hit if it weren't aimed at the 8-12 yo crowd which have few enough operas to see. _Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer_ is also the only hit of its author, Robert May. But I thought we were all adults here and talking about what is overplayed FOR ADULTS. Definitely H&G is overplayed (compared to _Tristan & Isolde_, for example).


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> Hansel and Gretel is a nice piece, but I think it does get overproduced.


Finally, someone who agrees H&G is overplayed!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I have no problem with pretty melodies per se. The problem with these two Gounod operas is just 
that they're musically insipid .


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## Zingo (Feb 17, 2010)

My candidates would be Fidelio and Pagliacci.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> I'm not arguing that it isn't a 'hit'. I'm arguing that it wouldn't be a hit if it weren't aimed at the 8-12 yo crowd which have few enough operas to see. _Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer_ is also the only hit of its author, Robert May. But I thought we were all adults here and talking about what is overplayed FOR ADULTS. Definitely H&G is overplayed (compared to _Tristan & Isolde_, for example).


Well, if you think Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer is in the same league as Humperdinck's masterpiece, no wonder you think the latter is overplayed. I am an adult and I love H&G. You also need to admit that the only reason a Piece is played often is that people are coming to see it often. And if people are still coming to see it then it is not overplayed for them.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zingo said:


> My candidates would be Fidelio and Pagliacci.


Fidelio is one of the really great operas. Pagliacci one of the most popular.

To say these are minor pieces is a remarkable piece of major misjudgment.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> If you go to Operabase.com, you will see that globally, H&G is the 15th most played opera, ahead of such real masterpieces as _Tristan & Isolde_, _Turandot_, _Eugene Onegin_, and _Nabucco_. It is played more often than anything from Wagner, Strauss, Tchaikovsky, or Bellini. It is And if this isn't overplayed, what is? If it were just played 45% more world-wide, then it would pass _Don Giovanni _to be the 10th most played opera. Would that be considered overplayed?


That's a useful list. Die Fledermaus has no business occupying the #11 spot between Don Giovanni and Aida. But at #34, between Rheingold and Tales of Hoffman, I guess the Faust pandemic isn't as bad as I thought it was. And Magic Flute should _not_ be the most-performed Mozart.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Well, if you think Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer is in the same league as Humperdinck's masterpiece, no wonder you think the latter is overplayed. I am an adult and I love H&G. You also need to admit that the only reason a Piece is played often is that people are coming to see it often. And if people are still coming to see it then it is not overplayed for them.


But my point is why is it played so often? What is the demographic of H&G? Why is it so often translated into English so that in fact it is hard to find an original German performance? I think the answers to those questions will go a long way to indicating why it is played "just the right amount" but perhaps not for a demographic which contains most adult opera-goers.

Let's use a more contemporary and perhaps relevant example than _Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer_. Psy's _Gangnam Style_ has 1.6 BILLION hits on Youtube:





YES, that it has 1.6 BILLION hits means that, "people are coming to see it often", as you point out. However, is that relevant to the demographic of the people frequenting this forum?

By the same token, _Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer_ is played half a dozen times every winter which means "people are coming to see it often". But who are those people? Children under 12. So when I speak of _Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer_ being overplayed, I am not denying that there are people (children) who want to see it. I am saying that it is overplayed from the perspective of adults.

H&G is overplayed from the perspective of adults.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Personally, I don't think there's any correlation between whether a person enjoys fairy tales and any topic of importance. Opera is just entertainment.


Tyroneslothrop made a comment about the 8-12 age bracket. Also I bet he's capable of answering for himself.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

DavidA said:


> To say these are *minor pieces* is a remarkable piece of major misjudgment.


I think the OP was making a play on the term masterpiece


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Cavaradossi said:


> And Magic Flute should _not_ be the most-performed Mozart.


:tiphat: cheers, mate!

BUT Die Fledermaus has me in stitches every time!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

moody said:


> Tyroneslothrop made a comment about the 8-12 age bracket. Also I bet he's capable of answering for himself.


Of course I can answer for myself. I am doubtful there is a correlation between enjoying fairy tales and topics of importance. I like _Rusalka_, _Cendrillon_, _Le cenerentola_, and _Turandot_, but dislike intensely H&G because of its triteness. I don't think my issue with H&G has anything to do with its fairytale/fantastical nature. I love _Lohengrin_ even though he spends 5 mins talking to a swan. Big deal. I like _The Cunning Little Vixen_ even though it is based on a comic strip. But I don't believe any of these works (except perhaps for _Cendrillon_ and _Cenerentola_ are having their numbers substantially artificially inflated by non-traditional opera-goers as H&G is. If everyone who rarely sees operas (including children) were to suddenly stop going to H&G performances, then H&G would fall dramatically in the rankings among operas.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ I find Cendrillon really dull. But after reading this thread I really want to see H&G :lol: (it's in my mini UWP).


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

deggial said:


> ^ I find Cendrillon really dull. But after reading this thread I really want to see H&G :lol: (it's in my mini UWP).







And there is even a guide for the target audience.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

deggial said:


> you mean my own top 6? that's a parallel universe to the original question... che cosa?!


Well no, I'm just thinking, if all of those aren't produced in one season, what is? Not that that's all of opera, but the point of what you've said is that finding a season that doesn't hold one of them isn't so easy. So create a season - twenty operas - that doesn't hold one of those, but that you'd just love. Or not, of course, just a thought ...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Seriously folks- what redeeming features should I be finding in this opera? I find the score to be incredibly trite.


Huh - have to say although I've seen it quite a few times I've never really noticed the music, for good or bad. I don't leave whistling its tunes, and I don't think I'd be tempted to get it on DVD or CD - but it's a hell of a show. I mean, I have the Met's Madama Butterfly on DVD and never watch it, but if it's playing I'll go every time, if I can, because it too is a hell of a show. Back to H&G, just remembering that empty dinner plate, up on the curtain before the show starts, gives me goosebumps! It's a fairy tale, sure, but it's a fairy tale with a vital link to reality: it's about being a child, and being hungry, and having limited options. I actually don't think watching it on the Met's web service will convey the opera to you very well. But I've never tried that service, so I don't really know.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> ^ I find Cendrillon really dull. But after reading this thread I really want to see H&G :lol: (it's in my mini UWP).


Does this imply that you have a mini UWP that you admit to and a massive one hidden in boxes in the attic about which you are in denial?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> Well no, I'm just thinking, if all of those aren't produced in one season, what is? Not that that's all of opera, but the point of what you've said is that finding a season that doesn't hold one of them isn't so easy. So create a season - twenty operas - that doesn't hold one of those, but that you'd just love. Or not, of course, just a thought ...


Here is my dream 2013-2014 season, all of which are guaranteed never to be staged in NZ:

1.	Berg - Wozzek with Keenlyside and Meier
2.	Britten - The Turn of the Screw
3.	Britten - Billy Budd with Peter Mattei in the title role and John Mark Ainsley as Vere
4.	Benjamin - Written on Skin with Barbara Hannigan, Christopher Purves and Iestyn Davies
5.	Boito - Mefistofele
6.	Charpentier - Louise
7.	Cherubini - Médée with Anna Caterina Antonacci 
8.	Handel - Tamerlano
9.	Handel - Solomon, staged, Andreas Scholl as Solomon 
10.	Korngold - Die Tote Stadt with Klaus Florian Vogt
11.	Massenet - Manon
12.	Monteverdi - Il Ritorno D'Ulisse in patria
13.	Moniuszko - Straszny Dwór 
14.	Prokofiev - War and Peace
15.	Ravel - L'enfant et les sortilèges in the Glyndebourne production
16.	Puccini - La Fanciulla del west with Eva Maria Westbroek
17.	Tchaikovsky - Pique Dame
18.	Verdi - Stiffelio
19.	Vivaldi - Ercole sul Termondonte
20.	Wagner - Lohengrin, with either Klaus Florian Vogt or Jonas Kaufmann


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

tyroneslothrop said:


> ...and?
> 
> _Rusalka_ is a fairy tale. _Cenerentola_ is a fairy tale. _Cendrillon_ is the same fairy tale. _Turandot_ is, yes, a fairy tale.


You stated that H and G is overplayed and trite,it's neither. you qualified that by saying unless you are in the 8-12 bracket--so
they would like it as it's a well-known fairy tale. Do you understand that,if not forget it !


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

_How would the fact that someone had only composed a single memorable work be at all relevant to whether that work was overrated or not? How many books beyond Don Quixote can most name by Cervantes. Thus Don Quixote must be overrated?_

tyroneslothrop-Actually, in my opinion, yes. How many have read its 1000 pages? From someplace else, I learned that if you go to Spain, you'll find that it is mandatory reading for their schools, and yet most young Spaniards don't like it.

Most young Americans and British don't like reading Shakespeare... or listening to classical music at all for that matter. So am I to assume that you imagine that the opinions of illiterate and tone-deaf teenagers are something to be taken seriously? Incredibly, among the major works of literature there are a good many as long as Don Quixote: Les Miserables, The Iliad and The Odyssey, War & Peace, The Brothers Karamazov, In Search of Lost Time, etc... I doubt most young students anywhere love reading any of these masterpieces... or much of anything more challenging than Harry Potter or Twilight... but their opinions hold absolutely no weight whatsoever among those who actually enjoy literature and take it seriously.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> _How would the fact that someone had only composed a single memorable work be at all relevant to whether that work was overrated or not? How many books beyond Don Quixote can most name by Cervantes. Thus Don Quixote must be overrated?_
> 
> tyroneslothrop-Actually, in my opinion, yes. How many have read its 1000 pages? From someplace else, I learned that if you go to Spain, you'll find that it is mandatory reading for their schools, and yet most young Spaniards don't like it.
> 
> Most young Americans and British don't like reading Shakespeare... or listening to classical music at all for that matter. So am I to assume that you imagine that the opinions of illiterate and tone-deaf teenagers are something to be taken seriously? Incredibly, among the major works of literature there are a good many as long as Don Quixote: Les Miserables, The Iliad and The Odyssey, War & Peace, The Brothers Karamazov, In Search of Lost Time, etc... I doubt most young students anywhere love reading any of these masterpieces... or much of anything more challenging than Harry Potter or Twilight... but their opinions hold absolutely no weight whatsoever among those who actually enjoy literature and take it seriously.


Give 'em hell, that's what I say !


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I'm not arguing that it isn't a 'hit'. I'm arguing that it wouldn't be a hit if it weren't aimed at the 8-12 yo crowd which have few enough operas to see.

Hansel and Gretel is not aimed at an 8 to 12 year old audience anymore than Through the Looking Glass or the Arabian Nights. They all have elements that resonate with a young audience... but they are also enjoyed and taken seriously by an older audience alike. Mahler and Richard Strauss both liked the opera enough to conduct it. Most would assume that they had descent taste in music.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

That's a useful list. Die Fledermaus has no business occupying the #11 spot between Don Giovanni and Aida. But at #34, between Rheingold and Tales of Hoffman, I guess the Faust pandemic isn't as bad as I thought it was. And Magic Flute should not be the most-performed Mozart.

_Hansel and Gretel_ is overrated. _Die Fledermaus_ is overrated. _The Magic Flute_ is overrated... and undoubtedly we should add the whole of Offenbach to this list. We can't allow for such music to be enjoyed by those dilettantes who are cluttering up our opera houses. No! This will not do! Solid, serious, profound, angst-laden tragedies are all that should be allowed. Thus sayeth we true opera fans.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

But my point is why is it played so often? What is the demographic of H&G? *Why is it so often translated into English so that in fact it is hard to find an original German performance?* I think the answers to those questions will go a long way to indicating why it is played "just the right amount" but perhaps not for a demographic which contains most adult opera-goers.

This seems rather presumptuous to me. You seem to be suggesting that the demographic... the audience who enjoys _Hansel und Gretel_ is inherently inferior to... yourself? Yet I suspect a number of those who have admitted to an admiration for H&G may just be well-versed in classical music and opera... perhaps even more so than yourself.

By the same token, Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer is played half a dozen times every winter which means "people are coming to see it often". But who are those people? Children under 12. So when I speak of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer being overplayed, I am not denying that there are people (children) who want to see it. I am saying that it is overplayed from the perspective of adults.

H&G is overplayed from the perspective of adults.

Ah... so it is only us "children" who enjoy H&G...

By the way... all in German:


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I'm not arguing that it isn't a 'hit'. I'm arguing that it wouldn't be a hit if it weren't aimed at the 8-12 yo crowd which have few enough operas to see.
> 
> *Hansel and Gretel is not aimed at an 8 to 12 year old audience* anymore than Through the Looking Glass or the Arabian Nights. They all have elements that resonate with a young audience... but they are also enjoyed and taken seriously by an older audience alike. Mahler and Richard Strauss both liked the opera enough to conduct it. Most would assume that they had descent taste in music.


Historical revisionism: "The libretto was written by Humperdinck's sister, Adelheid Wette... The idea for the opera was proposed to Humperdinck by his sister, who approached him about writing music *for songs that she had written for her children* for Christmas based on "Hansel and Gretel". After several revisions, the musical sketches and the songs were turned into a full-scale opera."


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> That's a useful list. Die Fledermaus has no business occupying the #11 spot between Don Giovanni and Aida. But at #34, between Rheingold and Tales of Hoffman, I guess the Faust pandemic isn't as bad as I thought it was. And Magic Flute should not be the most-performed Mozart.
> 
> _Hansel and Gretel_ is overrated. _Die Fledermaus_ is overrated. _The Magic Flute_ is overrated... and undoubtedly we should add the whole of Offenbach to this list. We can't allow for such music to be enjoyed by those dilettantes who are cluttering up our opera houses. No! This will not do! Solid, serious, profound, angst-laden tragedies are all that should be allowed. Thus sayeth we true opera fans.


Over*rated* is not the same as over*played*. I see you would like to discuss what is over*rated* or not over*rated* even though this thread is about what is over*played*. Then I don't actually think the work is over*rated*, but I do think it is over*played*.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I perceive a certain snobbishness in some of the posts here. We should listen to Tristan more than H+G. But who says? Few would dispute that Tristan is the greater work. But should it therefore be more popular? I myself acknowledge Tristan is a great work. But I find it very difficult to love the work. Whereas I do find it easy to love H+G. It is also an easier work to put on (as far as singers are concerned) than Tristan. So I'm not surprised it is more often performed. But to say it shouldn't be is frankly just bordering on snobbery. Get bums on seats I say. Who knows. Those who start with H&G might just end up seeing Tristan!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> But my point is why is it played so often? What is the demographic of H&G? *Why is it so often translated into English so that in fact it is hard to find an original German performance?* I think the answers to those questions will go a long way to indicating why it is played "just the right amount" but perhaps not for a demographic which contains most adult opera-goers.
> 
> This seems rather presumptuous to me. You seem to be suggesting that the demographic... the audience who enjoys _Hansel und Gretel_ is inherently inferior to... yourself? Yet I suspect a number of those who have admitted to an admiration for H&G may just be well-versed in classical music and opera... perhaps even more so than yourself.


It is only presumptious if you are imputing "inferior" into my words. All I said was that it is a "different" demographic. Different is not the same as "inferior".

The number 1 listened to song on the radio this week is Justin Timberlake's _Mirrors_:





Have you heard it? What do you think? If you haven't heard it, would you automatically say that the people who listen to it are inferior? A "kitchen sociologist" as me, wouldn't imply that different = inferior. Different is just that, different. All I said was that it is a _different_ demographic that has propelled H&G to become the #15th most played opera in the world.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> By the same token, Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer is played half a dozen times every winter which means "people are coming to see it often". But who are those people? Children under 12. So when I speak of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer being overplayed, I am not denying that there are people (children) who want to see it. I am saying that it is overplayed from the perspective of adults.
> 
> H&G is overplayed from the perspective of adults.
> 
> Ah... so it is only us "children" who enjoy H&G...


I definitely did not say that it was only children that enjoyed H&G. I implied that H&G is #15th most performed operas in the world because of children.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> By the way... all in German:


I stand corrected. However, I will make a new statement. It is understandable that for the targeted demographic, the opera should be sung in the native language of the audience. My question is then, what percentage of the performances of H&G outside of German-speaking countries use a German libretto? I wager that these are in the vast minority.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

DavidA said:


> I perceive a certain snobbishness in some of the posts here. We should listen to Tristan more than H+G. But who says? Few would dispute that Tristan is the greater work. But should it therefore be more popular? I myself acknowledge Tristan is a great work. But I find it very difficult to love the work. Whereas I do find it easy to love H+G. It is also an easier work to put on (as far as singers are concerned) than Tristan. So I'm not surprised it is more often performed. But to say it shouldn't be is frankly just bordering on snobbery. Get bums on seats I say. Who knows. Those who start with H&G might just end up seeing Tristan!


I am definitely not being a snob here. I am just saying that this opera is overplayed from the perspective of adults. Yet I don't think _La Cenerentola_ is overplayed, even though it also has a fairytale theme. I just think that from an adult opera-goer perspective, _La Cenerentola_ is a much better opera than H&G.

[BTW: I was the first of only two people who voted in this TC poll that _Cendrillon_ was Massenet's greatest opera, better than _Manon_. Is that a snob or someone who doesn't like fairytale-based operas?]


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> I am definitely not being a snob here. I am just saying that this opera is overplayed from the perspective of adults. Yet I don't think _La Cenerentola_ is overplayed, even though it also has a fairytale theme. I just think that from an adult opera-goer perspective, _La Cenerentola_ is a much better opera than H&G.
> 
> [BTW: I was the first of only two people who voted in this TC poll that _Cendrillon_ was Massenet's greatest opera, better than _Manon_. Is that a snob or someone who doesn't like fairytale-based operas?]


Just why is it overplayed? If it is good (which it is) then why shouldn't it be played if people enjoy it? If no-one enjoyed it, it wouldn't be played!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Just why is it overplayed? If it is good (which it is) then why shouldn't it be played if people enjoy it? If no-one enjoyed it, it wouldn't be played!


By your implied definition, nothing is overplayed, nothing is underplayed. Everything is played/performed exactly the right amount.

In that case, questions like the one the OP asked are pointless. But if that is what one feels, then one should avoid threads with such titles.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> By your implied definition, nothing is overplayed, nothing is underplayed. Everything is played/performed exactly the right amount.
> 
> In that case, questions like the one the OP asked are pointless. But if that is what one feels, then one should avoid threads with such titles.


The problem is that you haven't answered the question!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> That's understandable--you aren't in the crucial 8-12 bracket! :lol:


So, in another theatrical medium, this must needs include Tchaikovsky's The Nutcracker and Sleeping Beauty?


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

This is getting out of hand, isn't it?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

dionisio said:


> This is getting out of hand, isn't it?


Any thread designed to dis is a seriously bad idea. Whomever thinks its fun, well.

"If you are ever out with someone at a restaurant, and that person is not nice to the waiter, take note: That is NOT a nice person." ~ Dave Barry

Something like....


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

DavidA said:


> The problem is that you haven't answered the question!


Ah, because the answer is subjective and not likely to satisfy a person that feels that all things are played exactly the right amount based on consumer demand! Using the criteria of _"If it is good (which it is) then why shouldn't it be played if people enjoy it? If no-one enjoyed it, it wouldn't be played!"_ then the1.6 Billion viewings of Psy's _Gangnam Style_ are not overplayed but exactly the right amount because as long as "people enjoy it", it should be played.

I happen to agree with you in an absolute sense, because it is true that Justin Timberlake is more popular in the world than Beethoven. Yet I believe that it is not popularity alone that makes a work great. _Gangnam Style_ may be popular, but not great. So relative to groups of people, we can judge various works. If I define a group as those who love classical music above all other musical genres, then I can speculate that members of this group might think that _Gangnam Style_ is overplayed or that it is not a great work. If think about it from the perspective of a younger audience, they might feel Beethoven is overplayed and that _Gangnam Style_ could do with some more airtime. So I already am making assumptions when I get on a forum on a site called "TalkClassical.com" of the groups I might be speaking to, and so when I make statements like this thing or that thing are overplayed, it is assuming that as a basis.

So the exact answer is that being overplayed can only ever be a subjective assessment taken from the reference point of a certain subset of humanity. From the perspective of all of humanity and all the people in the world, then you are right, _"If it is good (which it is) then why shouldn't it be played if people enjoy it? If no-one enjoyed it, it wouldn't be played!"_ That a musical work has been listened to 1.6 billion times means that it is great in some sense.

When I was in high school, I was on the other side of this argument once. I had a friend who believed music ended with Beethoven. I made the case that humans came up with music and that humans judge it. That people today moved beyond classical music means that there is no "greatness" associated with music. Beethoven is great only because millions of people think he is great. But that 1,000,000 years from now, if he and his music are forgotten, then he will cease to be great. Back then, I would say I believed like you do. That, _"If it is good (which it is) then why shouldn't it be played if people enjoy it? If no-one enjoyed it, it wouldn't be played!"_ Today, I'd say that I no longer share that view.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Historical revisionism: "The libretto was written by Humperdinck's sister, Adelheid Wette... The idea for the opera was proposed to Humperdinck by his sister, who approached him about writing music *for songs that she had written for her children* for Christmas based on "Hansel and Gretel". After several revisions, the musical sketches and the songs were turned into a full-scale opera."


...of which Richard Wagner thought highly enough to praise it....

Do Children purchase tickets to the opera? Little nugget for thought there. Is the music somehow "condescending?" Is a Grimm's fairy tell less sophisticated than many of the more ridiculous libretti of many a 'serious' opera?


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

PetrB said:


> So, in another theatrical medium, this must needs include Tchaikovsky's The Nutcracker and Sleeping Beauty?


Actually, yes. The numbers for Nutcracker and Sleeping Beauty are inflated because of children.

You see, survey companies like Nielsen know how to publish survey results. They never say, _"the most popular TV show this week is..."_ They know that statements like _"most popular" are relative. Instead, they say, the most popular TV show in the 28 - 45 year old bracket is..."_

This is what I am saying. I am arguing that H&G is over*played* for the 18-XX bracket.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

dionisio said:


> This is getting out of hand, isn't it?


Only if you infer any emotion in these words. Who is injecting emotion? I am sitting here typing with absolutely a tranquil expression on my face. Others might feel that I am attacking them. I am not. I am only giving my opinion and defending it in a completely unemotional way.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Historical revisionism: "The libretto was written by Humperdinck's sister, Adelheid Wette... The idea for the opera was proposed to Humperdinck by his sister, who approached him about writing music for songs that she had written for her children for Christmas based on "Hansel and Gretel". After several revisions, the musical sketches and the songs were turned into a full-scale opera."

I know quite well why H&G was written... and Lewis Carroll's "Alice" novels were written for the entertainment of a young girl. The artist's intentions in no way define how a work of art is received by the audience. Bach's cantatas were composed to accompany weekly Lutheran church service, but one can enjoy them purely as music without being particularly religious... or religious at all. H&G may have began as a simple entertainment for children, but it was expanded to a full-scale opera that was thought worthy by Mahler and Richard Strauss and Hv Karajan and George Solti (among others).


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

PetrB said:


> ...of which Richard Wagner thought highly enough to praise it....


And perhaps it is worth praise. As I said earlier twice, this is a thread about over*played* operas, not over*rated* operas.

Also, that Wagner praised it is understandable. Humperdinck followed Wagner's prescriptions on _Gesamtkunstwerk_.



PetrB said:


> Do Children purchase tickets to the opera? Little nugget for thought there. Is the music somehow "condescending?"


Well of course, parent's purchase tickets for children! Didn't your parent's ever purchase tickets for you to anything? Otherwise one could claim the _Lion King_ was one of the most popular movies around among adults because only adults can buy tickets for a movie!



PetrB said:


> Is a Grimm's fairy tell less sophisticated than many of the more ridiculous libretti of many a 'serious' opera?


Absolutely not less sophisticated just because it is based on a fairytale. You are right. But that is a straw man argument since no one except for moody, I believe, ever raised the issue of this being a fairytale. As I pointed out, my favorite Massenet is _Cendrillon_ which is another fairytale.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Historical revisionism: "The libretto was written by Humperdinck's sister, Adelheid Wette... The idea for the opera was proposed to Humperdinck by his sister, who approached him about writing music for songs that she had written for her children for Christmas based on "Hansel and Gretel". After several revisions, the musical sketches and the songs were turned into a full-scale opera."
> 
> I know quite well why H&G was written... and Lewis Carroll's "Alice" novels were written for the entertainment of a young girl. The artist's intentions in no way define how a work of art is received by the audience. Bach's cantatas were composed to accompany weekly Lutheran church service, but one can enjoy them purely as music without being particularly religious... or religious at all. H&G may have began as a simple entertainment for children, but it was expanded to a full-scale opera that was thought worthy by Mahler and Richard Strauss and Hv Karajan and George Solti (among others).


Certainly H&G is worthy. It is much more worthy in my book than most Meyerbeer pieces. But the fact that it is #15 is because of children. That is my point. I am not saying that H&G should be lowered from #15 to #9999. Even if I don't like it, I recognize that there are those that do like it, and that it is not absolutely worthless. _(If only my own views counted, then people would be liking Regietheatre.)_ What I am saying is that if we take the demographic of the typical person on TalkClassical.com, the person who voted for _Manon_ instead of _Cendrillon_ on the TC Massenet poll, then from this *relative* perspective, H&G is over*played* (but not over*rated*).


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

Heey, Zauberflöte is not overplayed!!!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

moody said:


> You stated that H and G  is overplayed and trite,it's neither. you qualified that by saying unless you are in the 8-12 bracket--so
> they would like it as it's a well-known fairy tale. Do you understand that,if not forget it !


Of course, the 8-12 bracket like it because it is a well-known fairytale. That is exactly why I think H&G is overplayed, because children like it not because of its quality of music, but because it is a fairytale.

But this is not to say that fairytales don't make good operas. My point is that there are many good fairytale-based operas which I think are of better quality, including _Turandot_, _Cenerentola_/_Cendrillon_, _Rusalka_.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

tyroneslothrop-All I said was that it is a "different" demographic. Different is not the same as "inferior".

Excuse me, but I doubt that I'm the only one who would interpret comments such as those which follow as rather suggestive of a presumption that the audience for H&G is inherently of a lesser ilk... or one not to be taken seriously by those who do see or listen to opera frequently:

_I'm not arguing that it isn't a 'hit'. I'm arguing that it wouldn't be a hit if it weren't aimed at the 8-12 yo crowd which have few enough operas to see.

What is the demographic of H&G? Why is it so often translated into English so that in fact it is hard to find an original German performance? I think the answers to those questions will go a long way to indicating why it is played "just the right amount" but perhaps not for a demographic which contains most adult opera-goers.

If everyone who rarely sees operas (including children) were to suddenly stop going to H&G performances, then H&G would fall dramatically in the rankings among operas._

I am just saying that this opera is overplayed from the perspective of adults.

So those of us who disagree are not adults? I'll offer you another take on why _H&G_ and _Die Zauberflote_ and _La Traviata_ and _Carmen_ and _Der Fledermaus_ etc... are as popular as they are. I am a film buff... and I recognize that _Schindler's List_ is a masterful film... but it is not one I watch on a regular basis as I might _Casablanca_. It is brilliant... perhaps even "beautiful"... but not overly "entertaining". It involves a major commitment on my part not only of time... but also emotional involvement. It is a harrowing experience. Not one I enjoy on a regular basis. _Tristan und Isolde_ would quite possibly be my nomination for the "greatest" opera ever (although I might also go with any of Mozart's greatest 4). In spite of this I have not listened to _T&I_ as many times as I have _La Traviata, Die Zauberflote, Carmen_... or perhaps even _H&G_ (which honestly, I only first listened to last year... and greatly regret having put it off for so long). The reality is that some works of art are more "entertaining" than others... this does not immediately exclude them from also being marvelous works of art.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Actually, yes. The numbers for Nutcracker and Sleeping Beauty are inflated because of children.
> 
> You see, survey companies like Nielsen know how to publish survey results. They never say, _"the most popular TV show this week is..."_ They know that statements like _"most popular" are relative. Instead, they say, the most popular TV show in the 28 - 45 year old bracket is..."_
> 
> This is what I am saying. I am arguing that H&G is over*played* for the 18-XX bracket.


I'm thinking you are supremely self conscious at having arrived at the age just a bit older than that bracket, and are perhaps embarrassed to recall you were that age, once, and maybe not so long ago?

Carmen, La Vie Boheme, La Traviata, etc. are far too often programmed -- because they are sure fire fillers of seats. It is art, but also very much a business, you know.

In another thread, Eric Whitacre is clearly very popular. At least on the high school / college choir circuit, he must clearly be "overplayed."

I can guarantee you the programming of every work is not decided upon merely for its merit as a work of art.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Here is my dream 2013-2014 season, all of which are guaranteed never to be staged in NZ:
> 
> 1.	Berg - Wozzek with Keenlyside and Meier
> 2.	Britten - The Turn of the Screw
> ...


I was right - this is the question I should have asked! A much more interesting list than what-are-you-tired-of.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Ah, because the answer is subjective and not likely to satisfy a person that feels that all things are played exactly the right amount based on consumer demand! Using the criteria of _"If it is good (which it is) then why shouldn't it be played if people enjoy it? If no-one enjoyed it, it wouldn't be played!"_ then the1.6 Billion viewings of Psy's _Gangnam Style_ are not overplayed but exactly the right amount because as long as "people enjoy it", it should be played.
> 
> I happen to agree with you in an absolute sense, because it is true that Justin Timberlake is more popular in the world than Beethoven. Yet I believe that it is not popularity alone that makes a work great. _Gangnam Style_ may be popular, but not great. So relative to groups of people, we can judge various works. If I define a group as those who love classical music above all other musical genres, then I can speculate that members of this group might think that _Gangnam Style_ is overplayed or that it is not a great work. If think about it from the perspective of a younger audience, they might feel Beethoven is overplayed and that _Gangnam Style_ could do with some more airtime. So I already am making assumptions when I get on a forum on a site called "TalkClassical.com" of the groups I might be speaking to, and so when I make statements like this thing or that thing are overplayed, it is assuming that as a basis.
> 
> ...


I am sorry, but I wish before giving such a long and intense answer you would read what I actually put. The first lesson I used to give to my students in answering exam questions was 'read the question'.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> tyroneslothrop-All I said was that it is a "different" demographic. Different is not the same as "inferior".
> 
> Excuse me, but I doubt that I'm the only one who would interpret comments such as those which follow as rather suggestive of a presumption that the audience for H&G is inherently of a lesser ilk... or one not to be taken seriously by those who do see or listen to opera frequently:
> 
> ...


Yes, exactly right. I would have said the same myself 

What I am saying is simply this:

Let's say that there were only three operas in the entire world. H&G, _La Traviata_, and _Don Giovanni_. Let's say that the entire population of opera-goers was made up of 10 adults and 10 children. Well, it just so happens that 4 of the adults think LT is best, 4 think DG is best and 2 think H&G is best. But of the children, 8 think H&G is best and 1 each think LT and DG are best.

So now we have 10 votes for H&G, 5 each for LT and DG. If these ratings are reflected by performances, then for every 10 performances of H&G, there are 5 each of LT & DG. Is H&G overplayed in this case? No, from the absolute perspective, it isn't. BUT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE 5 ADULTS, IT IS.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> So those of us who disagree are not adults?


I did not say that. I said that the numbers reflect that children are a large segment of the audience for H&G while they are not for works like LT and DG.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> I'll offer you another take on why _H&G_ and _Die Zauberflote_ and _La Traviata_ and _Carmen_ and _Der Fledermaus_ etc... are as popular as they are. I am a film buff... and I recognize that _Schindler's List_ is a masterful film... but it is not one I watch on a regular basis as I might _Casablanca_. It is brilliant... perhaps even "beautiful"... but not overly "entertaining". It involves a major commitment on my part not only of time... but also emotional involvement. It is a harrowing experience. Not one I enjoy on a regular basis. _Tristan und Isolde_ would quite possibly be my nomination for the "greatest" opera ever (although I might also go with any of Mozart's greatest 4). In spite of this I have not listened to _T&I_ as many times as I have _La Traviata, Die Zauberflote, Carmen_... or perhaps even _H&G_ (which honestly, I only first listened to last year... and greatly regret having put it off for so long). The reality is that some works of art are more "entertaining" than others... this does not immediately exclude them from also being marvelous works of art.


Absolutely true. But a strawman argument as no one has said that a less serious work is not a work of art.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

PetrB said:


> I'm thinking you are supremely self conscious at having arrived at the age just a bit older than that bracket, and are perhaps embarrassed to recall you were that age, once, and maybe not so long ago?


I don't think you read where I said that _Cendrillon_ is my favorite Massenet. How does that accord with your thinking?



PetrB said:


> Carmen, La Vie Boheme, La Traviata, etc. are far too often programmed -- because they are sure fire fillers of seats. It is art, but also very much a business, you know.
> 
> In another thread, Eric Whitacre is clearly very popular. At least on the high school / college choir circuit, he must clearly be "overplayed."
> 
> I can guarantee you the programming of every work is not decided upon merely for its merit as a work of art.


Absolutely true. But no one has said this. I think that H&G is played because it pays the bills as a lot of children will come and see it. _(And just because I said children will come see it doesn't mean that I don't believe adults won't also, DavidA and StlukesguildOhio--of course adults will too)_


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I think you're forgetting another extremely important detail about Hansel und Gretel: Like the Nutcracker, almost always and ever done during the winter solstice holiday season, there are works which are exactly the works which parents take their children to as the children's first introduction to the magic of theater, music, opera, ballet. It is a gateway opera, if you will for each generation.

I wouldn't mind Oliver Knussen's _Where the Wild Things Are_ being a healthy alternate choice.

Myself taken to see / hear _The Nutcracker_ at age five, it "Got Me." Not long later, I developed musical tastes pretty much antithetical to Tchaikovsky, just because I did.

My parents also took me to a theatrical production of Aristophanes' _Lysistrata_ when I was eight or nine. I consider that unusual and myself lucky. In Europe, I saw children in concert halls, chamber music concerts, opera, and none of the programming 'Children's fare." Those children did not seem bored, restless, etc. because they had been brought to these things early and just enjoyed them.

I think it is only in American and British based cultures where children are more held only to 'children's fare.'

But once a year, often enough alternating every other year, Hansel und Gretel at the opera house -- what are you, The Grinch?


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

DavidA said:


> I am sorry, but I wish before giving such a long and intense answer you would read what I actually put. The first lesson I used to give to my students in answering exam questions was 'read the question'.


OK, let me answer it in parts:


> Just why is it overplayed?


If the question is why is it overplayed, then I think it is overplayed because there are few enough operas for children to see.

If the question is why do I believe it is overplayed, then the answer is I do not believe that among population of adult opera-goers, it deserves to be played _more_ than many other worthy operas, although I would certainly concede that it does deserve to be played.

If the question is a rhetorical, you haven't convinced me it is overplayed. Then I am simply explaining my view of why it is.



> If it is good (which it is) then why shouldn't it be played if people enjoy it?


_Good_ is relative term. Do you believe it is a better work than anything Strauss or Wagner ever wrote? If no, then it shows you may not be in the demographic that H&G performances are targeted at, because certainly, factually, it is the #15th most performed opera in the world according to Operabase.com.



> If no-one enjoyed it, it wouldn't be played!


Children enjoy it, and some adults. Children enjoy _Cendrillon_ also (although the numbers suggest less than H&G) and some adults, myself included.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

PetrB said:


> I think you're forgetting another extremely important detail about Hansel und Gretel: Like the Nutcracker, almost always and ever done during the winter solstice holiday season, there are works which are exactly the works which parents take their children to as the children's first introduction to the magic of theater, music, opera, ballet. It is a gateway opera, if you will for each generation.
> 
> I wouldn't mind Oliver Knussen's _Where the Wild Things Are_ being a healthy alternate choice.
> 
> ...


I am not against children or entertainments aimed at children. I think there should be more of them. It's just that I believe the question of the title of the thread, "Overplayed Opera Minorpieces", can only be addressed if we take a subset of the population of all people. Because if we take all people, and this question is answered in an absolute sense, then what I believe DavidA was implying is correct, that a work is played as often and as much as it needs to be for people who want to see it, to see it.

I've placed myself not in the set of all people, but in the subset of "opera-going adults". From the perspective of this subset, I can suddenly say something which is different than if I am viewing this from the universal set of all people. From the perspective of the subset of people who are opera-going adults, I believe that H&G is overplayed.

BTW, my wife is Russian. She attended a lot of opera and ballet as a child. I could be mistaken, but don't believe she ever saw the _Nutcracker_ live in the theater, but mostly other works which were more targeted at adults. In Russia, parents take children to works they (the parents) want to see, and the children should be quiet and pay attention. _(Although these days in Russia, that apparently doesn't mean that they can't use their cellphones and text during the opera.)_

(And I think that _Where the Wild Things Are_ would make a wonderful opera too--I haven't seen that particular opera myself, but as a child, I loved the original Sendak story.)


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> I was right - this is the question I should have asked! A much more interesting list than what-are-you-tired-of.


Then post this as another thread and you will get a different set of answers, only you'll have to say what country or location you are talking about since in some areas of the country, we get all sorts of things other places don't. Even here in the Washington, DC area (which isn't the most opera savvy place), we are about to see Rossini's _Il viaggio a Reims_, which certainly is a rarely performed opera.

_(BTW, I meant this with a )_


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> I am not against children or entertainments aimed at children. I think there should be more of them. It's just that I believe the question of the title of the thread, "Overplayed Opera Minorpieces", can only be addressed if we take a subset of the population of all people. Because if we take all people, and this question is answered in an absolute sense, then what I believe DavidA was implying is correct, that a work is played as often and as much as it needs to be for people who want to see it, to see it.
> 
> I've placed myself not in the set of all people, but in the subset of "opera-going adults". From the perspective of this subset, I can suddenly say something which is different than if I am viewing this from the universal set of all people. From the perspective of the subset of people who are opera-going adults, I believe that H&G is overplayed.
> 
> ...


Your question, more bluntly and without tact, then, is really about what the average plebe concertgoer likes, including the average plebe opera fan. The answers are then "The usual supspects, and in spades." Those usual suspects are often enough great works, some mere tuneful fripperies by second and third-tier composers... and the punters love them, buy tickets, aren't very adventurous.

Some decades ago, the British public were polled as to their preference between Puccini vs. Verdi. The resounding majority answer was Puccini, of course, with the one quintessential reason why also mentioned with the results, "Because Puccini gets right down to it." -- just like the majority of movie goers have no patience for a longer intro - exposition before the story takes off, just as the majority of the reading public have no time for an initial setup of more than say, ten to twenty pages, max.

Those are the audiences you speak of. I heard / watched a part of Unsuk Chin's _Alice_ and found the score completely non-engaging, "banal" if you will, and have no idea if children would like it. Oliver Knussen's _Where The Wild Things Are_ is in a musical vocabulary which has many an adult opera fan running for the exits, if they took a chance on it at all.

I lately watched the claymation film, _Paranorman_, alone, and was thoroughly engaged, entertained, laughed, was moved a bit, etc. That would make a pretty good children's opera which adults might also enjoy -- it "merely" awaits someone purchasing the rights, a composer, librettist, etc.

As I said before, if Americans and Brits did not condescend so much to their children, the face of what is thought of as "children's entertainments." might change greatly.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Your question, more bluntly and without tact, then, is really about what the average plebe concertgoer likes, including the average plebe opera fan.


Well, if we aren't addressing the set of all people, then there are many subsets. The subset of Western people. The subset of Western adults. The subset of opera-goers whether they are adults or children (almost the same though). The subset of adult-opera goers (which I though would be the most relevant frame of reference with which to address the subject of this thread). And even some sort of elite group of opera-goers that have seen 100+ operas and are not opera plebes. That is NOT the subset I chose.

So if you want to term the class of all adult opera-goers as some sort of plebian set, then alright. Yes, that is the set I am speaking relative to when I say I think H&G is overplayed. Once we add children to that set, and non-opera goers (that is, the people who say, "Let's take Johnny and Mary to see Hansel & Gretel!, it's in English!") then one can't say H&G is overplayed at all. It is played exactly right to allow everyone who wants to see it to see it.



PetrB said:


> The answers are then "The usual supspects, and in spades." Those usual suspects are often enough great works, some mere tuneful fripperies by second and third-tier composers... and the punters love them, buy tickets, aren't very adventurous.


You are touching on something which is a little different. What makes for a "great" work. I now do believe there is greatness and that it isn't all relative. But I wasn't even trying to go there in my comments above. I wasn't taking the perspective of the opera-goer who "knows a thing or two" when I said I think H&G is overplayed. I was just saying if you take children and the non-opera-going public out of the mix, then the remaining subset of opera-going adults (whether opera experts or plebes) would probably not rate H&G as high on the list as its factual ranking based on its relative number of performances.



PetrB said:


> Some decades ago, the British public were polled as to their preference between Puccini vs. Verdi. The resounding majority answer was Puccini, of course, with the one quintessential reason why also mentioned with the results, "Because Puccini gets right down to it." -- just like the majority of movie goers have no patience for a longer intro - exposition before the story takes off, just as the majority of the reading public have no time for an initial setup of more than say, ten to twenty pages, max.
> 
> Those are the audiences you speak of. I heard / watched a part of Unsuk Chin's _Alice_ and found the score completely non-engaging, "banal" if you will, and have no idea if children would like it. Oliver Knussen's _Where The Wild Things Are_ is in a musical vocabulary which has many an adult opera fan running for the exits, if they took a chance on it at all.
> 
> ...


Agree on all your points.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Does this imply that you have a mini UWP that you admit to and a massive one hidden in boxes in the attic about which you are in denial?


ha, it would seem, but no, I _only_ have a mini one because I'm still new to opera and real life keeps making ridiculous demands on my finances


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

deggial said:


> ha, it would seem, but no, I _only_ have a mini one because I'm still new to opera and real life keeps making ridiculous demands on my finances


One of the greatest things ever invented for those in your shoes is Youtube!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> I was right - this is the question I should have asked! A much more interesting list than what-are-you-tired-of.


this question sparked an animated conversation as well


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

tyroneslothrop said:


> One of the greatest things ever invented for those in your shoes is Youtube!


I would not even be into opera right now without el tube *worships*. I've also joined the Library today and took home 3 boxsets for a mere £1.80. Too bad their DVD collection is very thin, but I will make a list and have them order for me.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Well, if we aren't addressing the set of all people, then there are many subsets. The subset of Western people. The subset of Western adults. The subset of opera-goers whether they are adults or children (almost the same though). The subset of adult-opera goers (which I though would be the most relevant frame of reference with which to address the subject of this thread). And even some sort of elite group of opera-goers that have seen 100+ operas and are not opera plebes. That is NOT the subset I chose.
> 
> So if you want to term the class of all adult opera-goers as some sort of plebian set, then alright. Yes, that is the set I am speaking relative to when I say I think H&G is overplayed. Once we add children to that set, and non-opera goers (that is, the people who say, "Let's take Johnny and Mary to see Hansel & Gretel!, it's in English!") then one can't say H&G is overplayed at all. It is played exactly right to allow everyone who wants to see it to see it.
> 
> ...


Even though you agree with my points (hard not to, unless you want to pretend some other set of conceits, really) -- as to this post, its structure, points (yes, also agree your points above are all valid) but Good Lord, accused of pedantry often enough myself, I should re-direct those assailants in your direction 

I know, I taught for years, though private piano lessons, which run quite differently from classrooms. It is very easy, coming from that place, to forget school is out here....


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Even though you agree with my points (hard not to, unless you want to pretend some other set of conceits, really) -- as to this post, its structure, points (yes, also agree your points above are all valid) but Good Lord, accused of pedantry often enough myself, I should re-direct those assailants in your direction


Hmmm... Maybe that explains why I wasn't such a hit among the students when I taught years ago in the evenings for a major US business school! :lol:


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

deggial said:


> I've also joined the Library today and took home 3 boxsets for a mere £1.80.


I guess it's been a long time since I've been to a public library. Do they make you pay to borrow items now?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

tyroneslothrop said:


> I guess it's been a long time since I've been to a public library. Do they make you pay to borrow items now?


it appears you do need to pay for DVDs and CDs at least here in London. I suppose it's because they know you're going to rip them.

this is what I got:





















I saved £33.16


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

deggial said:


> it appears you do need to pay for DVDs and CDs at least here in London. I suppose it's because they know you're going to rip them.


Ah. So this is something the recording industry or motion picture industry makes libraries in the UK do? Because, otherwise, why would public libraries feel compelled to compensate for copyright this way? Although I'm not a regular library-user any more, my understanding is that libraries in the US even allow people to use their computers to access porn and in general, don't do a lot of enforcement of anything except, decorum in the library itself.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Ah. So this is something the recording industry or motion picture industry makes libraries in the UK do? Because, otherwise, why would public libraries feel compelled to compensate for copyright this way?


I don't know. I could ask them when I return the boxsets, out of curiosity. I've never rented CDs and DVDs from the library before...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Hmmm... Maybe that explains why I wasn't such a hit among the students when I taught years ago in the evenings for a major US business school! :lol:


Naw, that's just a normal "You, teacher :: Them, student" dynamic, near-reflexively resented by the little darlings.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

When I ask the Auckland library to buy things for me they have to obtain them from a special source and pay an extra license fee, so presumably this means they know people rip them.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I think when you talk of overplayed it depends on two things:


Where you are on your opera journey
What choice there is in your local area

When I first started going to the opera I went to all the usual suspects, the Bohemes, Traviatas, Rigolettos etc, and thoroughly enjoyed them.

But now I know them so well, that there has to be something special about these - some intriguing production or wonderful cast, to make me want to see it. Instead I am dying to see the more rarely played operas, ones that I have discovered more recently.

My problem personally is that NZ ONLY plays familiar warhorses, two a year, there is nothing ever on that I have not already seen lots of times. Except once, Hohepa, a new opera, but that was only in Wellington.

The alternative is the Met live in HD and I am sad that they often chose to replay warhorses that they have already broadcast (Aida, Cenerentola) above more challenging operas (so no Dialogues). But who can blame them? The Alagna Aida took twice as much revenue as Les Troyens. In NZ where the arts are largely held in low esteem and "_Culture_" is suspect, that argument will stand too.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

deggial said:


> I don't know. I could ask them when I return the boxsets, out of curiosity. I've never rented CDs and DVDs from the library before...


Yes please do. I'm curious. Perhaps it's something like a restocking fee. I mean, for optical media, one poorly-placed scratch and it's ready for the garbage bin.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Most young Americans and British don't like reading Shakespeare... or listening to classical music at all for that matter. So am I to assume that you imagine that the opinions of illiterate and tone-deaf teenagers are something to be taken seriously? Incredibly, among the major works of literature there are a good many as long as Don Quixote: Les Miserables, The Iliad and The Odyssey, War & Peace, The Brothers Karamazov, In Search of Lost Time, etc... I doubt most young students anywhere love reading any of these masterpieces... or much of anything more challenging than Harry Potter or Twilight... but their opinions hold absolutely no weight whatsoever among those who actually enjoy literature and take it seriously.


Agreed. It matters not whether Cervantes' only significant work is Quixote. Or, on topic, whether any composer's one opera is good and no others were composed.

Incidentally, I find War & Peace tedious. But then again, I'm a Joycean who loves "Ulysses", so what do I know? ha ha


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think when you talk of overplayed it depends on two things:
> 
> 
> Where you are on your opera journey
> What choice there is in your local area


Complete agree. Over- and under-played is completely a subjective thing because when taken universally and totally, things are played as much as they have to be and ought to be.



mamascarlatti said:


> The Alagna Aida took twice as much revenue as Les Troyens.


Now this is a very interesting tidbit I did not know. Where do you go to find out stuff like this? The Met doesn't publish it, do they? Because if they do, I'm curious how certain productions did, like Parsifal and a number of past productions.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

PetrB said:


> I think you're forgetting another extremely important detail about Hansel und Gretel: Like the Nutcracker, almost always and ever done during the winter solstice holiday season, there are works which are exactly the works which parents take their children to as the children's first introduction to the magic of theater, music, opera, ballet. It is a gateway opera, if you will for each generation.
> etc etc


Oh, wow, you brought up memories re. Nutcracker. Among dancers, it's generally the most hated ballet, because it's so antiquated yet it's the cash cow for most ballet companies during the CHRISTMAS season and overperformed until the dancers are sick.

My wife was in the Corps for San Francisco ballet and I've known quite a few dancers over the years, and every dancer I have spoken to will cringe if you mention Nutcracker.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

katdad said:


> Oh, wow, you brought up memories re. Nutcracker. Among dancers, it's generally the most hated ballet, because it's so antiquated yet it's the cash cow for most ballet companies during the CHRISTMAS season and overperformed until the dancers are sick.
> 
> My wife was in the Corps for San Francisco ballet and I've known quite a few dancers over the years, and every dancer I have spoken to will cringe if you mention Nutcracker.


Until she grew out of it, my daughter wanted to see the _Nutcracker_ *EVERY CHRISTMAS*. That's a lot of nutcrackers! _(She never asked to see H&G though, and I never offered, but perhaps if I had, she wouldn't have such a distaste for opera now that she has!)_

(Well, I should admit that I wanted/want to see the _Messiah_ every Christmas myself, but that is another story! :lol


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

I didn't read all the postings so I don't know whether this was already listed, but I think that Cavalleria Rusticana is a simpering, tired, and hopelessly outdated opera. I understand that it's a period piece and that the deep religious overtones (strong emphasis on Roman Catholicism) were important in Italy when the opera was composed but these days are kinda boring.

And no, I've got no problems with "period" operas per se, but look at Nozze by comparison, because you've got the same background of tradition and semi-feudal attitudes, but significant in this opera is the strong rise of individualism and fairly strong nonsectarian principal characters (Figaro and Susanna primarily).

But back to "Cav", you get endless pairings of that with "Pag" (actually a pretty good short opera and nicely dramatic if produced properly). And Cav is precisely one of these "overshown" and "overplayed" operas.

Now, combine Pag with Il Tabarro? A good evening to be had. Tabarro is one of the superb short operas that never seems to be presented enough.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

katdad said:


> Now, combine Pag with Il Tabarro? A good evening to be had. Tabarro is one of the superb short operas that never seems to be presented enough.


You mean in addition to _Il tabarro_ being in the _Il trittico_ set?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> (Well, I should admit that I wanted/want to see the _Messiah_ every Christmas myself, but that is another story! :lol


See, I don't. I want the Auckland Choral society to staaaahp with the damn Messiah and use that rehearsal and performance time to put on Joshua, Jephtha, Judas, Saul, Susanna, Solomon, Samson. Messiah isn't even my favourite Handel oratorio!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> See, I don't. I want the Auckland Choral society to staaaahp with the damn Messiah and use that rehearsal and performance time to put on Joshua, Jephtha, Judas, Saul, Susanna, Solomon, Samson. Messiah isn't even my favourite Handel oratorio!


Not me. I feel an intimate attachment to the _Messiah_. It is the specific piece of music that brought me to classical music. My most memorable _Messiah_ was when I was living/studying in Cambridge, Mass at a performance at Boston Symphony Hall. They had both David Thomas and Emma Kirkby with all original instruments. It definitely evoked for me the AAM recording by Christopher Hogwood.  That memory was so wonderful it will be with me forever (and in fact already survived one highway motorcycle accident :lol


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> _How would the fact that someone had only composed a single memorable work be at all relevant to whether that work was overrated or not? How many books beyond Don Quixote can most name by Cervantes. Thus Don Quixote must be overrated?_
> 
> tyroneslothrop-Actually, in my opinion, yes. How many have read its 1000 pages? From someplace else, I learned that if you go to Spain, you'll find that it is mandatory reading for their schools, and yet most young Spaniards don't like it.
> 
> Most young Americans and British don't like reading Shakespeare... or listening to classical music at all for that matter. So am I to assume that you imagine that the opinions of illiterate and tone-deaf teenagers are something to be taken seriously? Incredibly, among the major works of literature there are a good many as long as Don Quixote: Les Miserables, The Iliad and The Odyssey, War & Peace, The Brothers Karamazov, In Search of Lost Time, etc... I doubt most young students anywhere love reading any of these masterpieces... or much of anything more challenging than Harry Potter or Twilight... but their opinions hold absolutely no weight whatsoever among those who actually enjoy literature and take it seriously.


You see, I see your views and DavidA's views at diametrically opposite ends of the spectrum. As DavidA has said elsewhere in this thread, "If no-one enjoyed it, it wouldn't be played!" There is legitimacy in the views of the masses. What is played is what people (the masses) want to have played and what they don't want to have played will struggle to find an audience. Only it may not have any relevancy to me personally. That is my point about H&M. Just because people (children) go to see H&M, and it ends up #15 on the list of all operas performed, does not mean that if I ask an opera-going adult what their top 15 operas of all time are, that I would typically expect H&M to appear on a majority of their lists, nor does it mean that it will or should appear on my own personal list of top 15 operas. That people see H&M is legitimate. That people listen to Psy's _Gangnam Style_ is legitimate. That people like Timberlake's _Mirrors_ is legitimate. However, the people who like and do this do not reflect my personal tastes in music.

That said, there is no question to me that despite what is said about _Don Quixote_, even the Spanish do not like it as much as they might answer in a survey. Though this has nothing to do with _Don Quixote_ being a "great" novel by certain measures _(if you accept there is an absolute measure of greatness in literature)_. For example, check out the most popular copy of _Don Quixote_ on Spain's Amazon.es site: clicky


> "*Clasificación en los más vendidos de Amazon:* nº8.421 en Libros"


8,421st rank in among books purchased!

Compare that, for example, to consumer behavior in the UK and Ireland around _Ulysses_ on Amazon.co.uk: clicky


> Amazon Bestsellers Rank: 556 in Books
> #41 in Books > Fiction > Classics


Clearly, based on just one measure of consumer behavior _(which in some sense is more reliable than a survey where national pride kicks in)_, the English/Irish like _Ulysses_ a lot more than the Spanish like _Don Quixote_!

But if you are asking my personal opinion on what I think about these works:
_Don Quixote_- ok. Read in high school. Whatever. It could have been 800 pages shorter.
_À la recherche du temps perdu_- The most brilliant book every written. I learned to read (poorly) French because of this book. Actually, about a decade ago, I participated in an online forum with recent Man Booker International Prize winner, Lydia Davis, and managed to convinced her that a certain French phrase in Swann's Way could only be translated in a certain way in English for her 2003 translation into English.
_War and Peace_- The 2nd most brilliant book ever written. I'm desperately trying to learn Russian well enough to read this fully in the original Russian.
_Illiad_/_Odyssey_- Ok, historical. I learned how to read bits of this in Greek in my Classical Greek class. I was not so much amazed by what it says as in the fact that it was said so long ago. A good story at any rate.
_Brothers Karamazov_- I didn't like it but my Russian wife loves it but hates _War and Peace_. Go figure.

(You didn't mention one book, but since we obliquely started on the topic of German operas, I should mention it. Musil's _Der Mann ohne Eigenschaften_. Awful, turgid, boring, a snooze. :lol


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

katdad said:


> Agreed. It matters not whether Cervantes' only significant work is Quixote. Or, on topic, whether any composer's one opera is good and no others were composed.
> 
> Incidentally, I find War & Peace tedious. But then again, I'm a Joycean who loves "Ulysses", so what do I know? ha ha


I made a point of seeing War & Peace when Gergiev and the Mariinsky brought it to the Kennedy Center a number of years ago - a very expensive ticket - I'm glad I saw it and now can check it off my list because it.is.tedious! The cast of thousands in the battle scenes was impressive but not really enough to save the thing.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

A thought just occurred to me about 'overplayed' operas - there is another side to this. I used to cringe at the thought of yet another performance of Marriage of Figaro (ye gods, not another damn Figaro!). I was so wrong. It is now my favorite Mozart opera, by far, and now I'm always delighted when it shows up.

Unfortunately, I do not have that reaction to Carmen or La Traviata and, with all due respect to Bizet and Verdi, either stay home or walk out. Maybe if either received remarkably astute Regie treatment and top of the line casts, I might be happy about sitting through them again.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> You see, I see your views and DavidA's views at diametrically opposite ends of the spectrum. As DavidA has said elsewhere in this thread, "If no-one enjoyed it, it wouldn't be played!" There is legitimacy in the views of the masses. What is played is what people (the masses) want to have played and what they don't want to have played will struggle to find an audience. Only it may not have any relevancy to me personally. That is my point about H&M. Just because people (children) go to see H&M, and it ends up #15 on the list of all operas performed, does not mean that if I ask an opera-going adult what their top 15 operas of all time are, that I would typically expect H&M to appear on a majority of their lists, nor does it mean that it will or should appear on my own personal list of top 15 operas. That people see H&M is legitimate. That people listen to Psy's _Gangnam Style_ is legitimate. That people like Timberlake's _Mirrors_ is legitimate. However, the people who like and do this do not reflect my personal tastes in music.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I'm glad to think that seeing this opera is legitimate. I was afraid they might be a law against it!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just listening to Tristan again. I can't say I love this work. Admire, yes. Love, no!


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Have you ever seen Tristan staged? That might make the difference.


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## Zingo (Feb 17, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Fidelio is one of the really great operas. Pagliacci one of the most popular.
> 
> To say these are minor pieces is a remarkable piece of major misjudgment.


I interpreted "Overplayed Opera Minorpieces" simply as "overrated operas". To me, Fidelio and Pagliacci are just that. Generally speaking, Beethoven really didn't write all that well for the human voice (melodies like "Namenlose Freude" and "Ich Folg' Dem Innern Triebe" seem written for a wind instrument, for example). Pagliacci just strikes me as musically crude and dramatically cheap. But I wouldn't call any opera "overplayed", I'd like to see more performances of every opera.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

DavidA said:


> tyroneslothrop said:
> 
> 
> > You see, I see your views and DavidA's views at diametrically opposite ends of the spectrum. As DavidA has said elsewhere in this thread, "If no-one enjoyed it, it wouldn't be played!" There is legitimacy in the views of the masses. What is played is what people (the masses) want to have played and what they don't want to have played will struggle to find an audience. Only it may not have any relevancy to me personally. That is my point about H&M. Just because people (children) go to see H&M, and it ends up #15 on the list of all operas performed, does not mean that if I ask an opera-going adult what their top 15 operas of all time are, that I would typically expect H&M to appear on a majority of their lists, nor does it mean that it will or should appear on my own personal list of top 15 operas. That people see H&M is legitimate. That people listen to Psy's _Gangnam Style_ is legitimate. That people like Timberlake's _Mirrors_ is legitimate. However, the people who like and do this do not reflect my personal tastes in music.
> ...


It is as legitimate as any work of art, of course. But you bring up an interesting point about legitimacy in works of opera which hasn't been raised in this thread. This thread is about overplayed works, not illegitimate works, but I suppose that is also a question. Many people don't give the same consideration to certain works of course, especially works of popular culture. I sense this is less true in music and opera than in visual arts. In music and opera, people are more willing to live and let live, unless the composer's intent is offended in some why (_Regietheatre_). However, there really isn't the outcry of outrage about the most atonal or sequential works as there is in the visual arts. My wife is in the contemporary art business, and there, you find people definitely denying the right of existence of certain works of art. Often, funding institutions like the National Endowment for the Arts get caught in the middle of these legitimacy and obscenity tugs-of-war. In opera at least, it seems this only happens when a director interprets a work outlandishly (Nazi elements, gratuitous nudity, etc.).


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> A thought just occurred to me about 'overplayed' operas - there is another side to this. I used to cringe at the thought of yet another performance of Marriage of Figaro (ye gods, not another damn Figaro!). I was so wrong. It is now my favorite Mozart opera, by far, and now I'm always delighted when it shows up.


I know I complained, and considering I'm planning on going to Nozze twice next season it might sound hypocritical. I'm just saying it does get staged a lot (likely with good reason)... Don't we trust Mozart enough to get people into the house regardless of what it is?


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> You mean in addition to _Il tabarro_ being in the _Il trittico_ set?


Yes. Trittico seems to be rarely performed nowdays, too.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Zingo said:


> I interpreted "Overplayed Opera Minorpieces" simply as "overrated operas". To me, Fidelio and Pagliacci are just that. Generally speaking, Beethoven really didn't write all that well for the human voice (melodies like "Namenlose Freude" and "Ich Folg' Dem Innern Triebe" seem written for a wind instrument, for example). Pagliacci just strikes me as musically crude and dramatically cheap. But I wouldn't call any opera "overplayed", I'd like to see more performances of every opera.


Overplayed is definitely different than overrated in my mind. Something can be overplayed even when there is a general disdain for a work. This happens often in popular culture, although without state support, someone is going to lose money in these cases. There was an article not long ago about how in the movie industry, there are many movies made in Europe to consume public funds which are just awful. I think for many of such trashy works, having it play once is already overplaying.

The problem with overplaying is that most people don't listen to classical/opera on the radio, so a classical work or opera is getting played more often as much as another classical work or opera is getting played less often.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Hoffmann said:


> A thought just occurred to me about 'overplayed' operas - there is another side to this. I used to cringe at the thought of yet another performance of Marriage of Figaro (ye gods, not another damn Figaro!). I was so wrong. It is now my favorite Mozart opera, by far, and now I'm always delighted when it shows up.


I never tire of Wagner. Sick I know. :lol:


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

katdad said:


> Yes. Trittico seems to be rarely performed nowdays, too.


Yes, it is a shame really.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

deggial said:


> I know I complained, and considering I'm planning on going to Nozze twice next season it might sound hypocritical. I'm just saying it does get staged a lot (likely with good reason)... Don't we trust Mozart enough to get people into the house regardless of what it is?


Uh... no. Try playing _Mitridate_ more than once and see what happens to the house.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Uh... no. Try playing _Mitridate_ more than once and see what happens to the house.


haha, Mitridate is precisely one of those I'd like to see! That and Lucio Silla. What's not to like? in fact, after listening to Mitridate I went on to read about Mitridate the historical figure - what a fascinating character


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

deggial said:


> haha, Mitridate is precisely one of those I'd like to see! That and Lucio Silla. What's not to like? in fact, after listening to Mitridate I went on to read about Mitridate the historical figure - what a fascinating character


<PERSONAL OPINION> Boring, droning, derivative juvenilia... [snore] </PERSONAL OPINION>


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ funny, that's exactly what I say about Wagner's output  I guess it's a good thing ROH hasn't yet hired me to develop their setlist for the next few seasons, haha.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

deggial said:


> ^ funny, that's exactly what I say about Wagner's output











But it is true that Wagner may be like a fine scotch. When I started drinking, in school, it was all beer. Then mixed drinks. Then whiskeys. But I was well into whiskeys and years when I finally developed a taste for a fine scotch! Wagner is like that


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I don't know, there appear to be lots of people out there who, when it comes to opera, enjoy little else _beside_ Wagner...


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

deggial said:


> I don't know, there appear to be lots of people out there who, when it comes to opera, enjoy little else _beside_ Wagner...


I've tried to explain to my Mozart-loving long-time friend _(the one who years ago convinced me in high school that if there was no humans left to listen to Beethoven, his music would nonetheless still be great)_ that opera is like a mountain. One starts in the foothills and climbs steadily and one arrives at the summit... and there one finds a little sign:








He just looks at me like I'm nuts.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

whew, good thing you didn't give me that analogy. I'd have been too exhausted just by imagining the arduous climb to reach different summits. For me opera is like a jacuzzi - you immerse yourself and turn on different jets, depending on the mood.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

deggial said:


> whew, good thing you didn't give me that analogy. I'd have been too exhausted just by imagining the arduous climb to reach different summits. For me opera is like a jacuzzi - you immerse yourself and turn on different jets, depending on the mood.


Well, using the Jacuzzi analogy, I think you might find that some operas are like throwing a few handfuls of stinging nettles into your Jacuzzi with you, but still afterwards you feel refreshed, only not with any great urge to repeat the experience immediately!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> <PERSONAL OPINION> Boring, droning, derivative juvenilia... [snore] </PERSONAL OPINION>


Nonono, not Mitridate. You need to see this searing production:


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Nonono, not Mitridate. You need to see this searing production:


OK. Amazon strikes again. I just ordered a new copy of this DVD to be shipped to me from California for $13.71. But if I don't like it, I will be throwing popcorn in your direction _(in a generally southwesterly direction)_!


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## rborganist (Jan 29, 2013)

Yes, I like Faust, too;there are some beautiful, stirring pieces in it. Listen to the final trio, especially sung by Eleanor Steber as Marguerite,Eugene Conley as Faust, and Cesare Siepi as Mephistopheles. It would be interesting to hear broadcasts over several weeks of the Gounod, the Berlioz, and Boito's Mefisotefele. There must be something to Goethe's drama, considering the way composers keep returning to it. And yes, I love Tosca and Madama Butterfly, but I would love to see an opera house do a more balanced season; stick a few of these neglected pieces (maybe even including Il Pirata--if you can find the right soprano--) in among the bread and butter works, which they have to keep doing if they are going to be able to pay their bills.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zingo said:


> I interpreted "Overplayed Opera Minorpieces" simply as "overrated operas". To me, Fidelio and Pagliacci are just that. Generally speaking, Beethoven really didn't write all that well for the human voice (melodies like "Namenlose Freude" and "Ich Folg' Dem Innern Triebe" seem written for a wind instrument, for example). Pagliacci just strikes me as musically crude and dramatically cheap. But I wouldn't call any opera "overplayed", I'd like to see more performances of every opera.


OK Beethoven didn't write well for the voice. But he did have immense genius and that comes through in spades in Fidelio.

BTW what about Wagner? Writing music that few voices can sing properly. How many Siegfrieds are there? Wagner writes two long acts of heavy declaratory singing then the guy has an exhausting final long duet with a soprano who is fresh out the blocks. Is this good writing for the voice? And Brunnhilde? How often do Nilssons and Flagstads who can really sing the part come along? Is this good writing for the voice?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

rborganist said:


> (maybe even including Il Pirata--if you can find the right soprano--)


I like your thinking, I'd love to see Il pirata. Good luck in general finding a soprano who can do justice to Bellini...


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Zingo said:


> I interpreted "Overplayed Opera Minorpieces" simply as "overrated operas". To me, Fidelio and Pagliacci are just that. Generally speaking, Beethoven really didn't write all that well for the human voice (melodies like "Namenlose Freude" and "Ich Folg' Dem Innern Triebe" seem written for a wind instrument, for example). Pagliacci just strikes me as musically crude and dramatically cheap. But I wouldn't call any opera "overplayed", I'd like to see more performances of every opera.


Agree on both.

Pagliacci has a smart libretto but musically it isn't that good though Vesti la giubba is an immortal aria.


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