# Bach always sounds good!



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I wonder if there has ever been another composer whose work translates so well from one instrument to another as Bach? Here's some Bach played on a marimba, surely an instrument Bach would never even have dreamed of. And it sounds as beautiful as the same piece played on anything else:


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

And the guy playing the marimba is wearing a really cool waistcoat.

Best regards, Dr


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Even so, I always find Bach knew his instruments best. For me his keyboard works always sound best on the harpsichord, not the piano.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

When he plays, I keep thinking that my phone is ringing.

Nice but lacks _pizzazz_....at the end he didn't throw the mallets into the audience.


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## Animato (Dec 5, 2013)

Bach’s keyboard music is very „instrumental“ – in the sense that many melodies can not really be sung vocally. Probably that’s why a lot of Bach’s keyboard works can be easily played on other instruments. Of course Bach has also written beautiful melodies, but he reserved them for vocals or for the violin.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Bach always sounds good!


Let me sing some Bach for you.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I'd honestly rather hear him played on almost anything other than a keyboard by an inept player. I'm not quite so sure how much I like this guy on the marimba; the kid in my high school band had better chops but you're right in that it sounds good.

Perhaps Bach's most famous work I enjoy most on a series of synthesizers used by Don Dorsey. To me, the keyboard execution is above and beyond any other I have ever heard and even the sounds chosen are so much better than a real organ. And, yes, I've been in hundreds years old churches throughout Europe and heard the real thing but those of you who know me here know that it's all about the performance, the virtuosity and the execution.

If you're not familiar,...enjoy:


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## Katie (Dec 13, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> at the end he didn't throw the mallets into the audience.


...or even burn the marimba in tribute to the muse...


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

With respect to our organists and organ lovers, I go well out of my way to find variations of Bach's organ works. I just find it to be a very heavy instrument but variations on piano or even for strings suit me well.


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Even so, I always find Bach knows best. For me his keyboard works always sound best on the harpsichord, not the piano.


This doesn't make sense. How do we know Bach would've even gone harpsichord if he had a Steinway.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

arcaneholocaust said:


> This doesn't make sense. How do we know Bach would've even gone harpsichord if he had a Steinway.


We don't, but he wrote his keyboard works for the harpsichord and that's where these works sound the best, in my humble opinion.


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2013)

Well yeah, your second sentence made perfect sense. It was the "Bach knows best" that threw me off.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Well yeah, your second sentence made perfect sense. It was the "Bach knows best" that threw me off.


Must have been the rum cake. Sorry.

I edited it to "Bach knew his instruments best."


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Duplicate post.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> Nice but lacks _pizzazz_....at the end he didn't throw the mallets into the audience.


Well, if they threw some flowers and panties and stuff onto the stage, perhaps he would have thrown the mallets. 



kv466 said:


> Perhaps Bach's most famous work I enjoy most on a series of synthesizers used by Don Dorsey. To me, the keyboard execution is above and beyond any other I have ever heard and even the sounds chosen are so much better than a real organ. And, yes, I've been in hundreds years old churches throughout Europe and heard the real thing but those of you who know me here know that it's all about the performance, the virtuosity and the execution.


Or you could try this:






In view of some of the comments I should revise my original statement: Bach doesn't always sound good, but does if the player of whatever instrument his music is being performed on is competent.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

kv466 said:


> Perhaps Bach's most famous work I enjoy most on a series of synthesizers used by Don Dorsey. To me, the keyboard execution is above and beyond any other I have ever heard and even the sounds chosen are so much better than a real organ. And, yes, I've been in hundreds years old churches throughout Europe and heard the real thing but those of you who know me here know that it's all about the performance, the virtuosity and the execution.


I like Dorsey when he's being serious, as he is here. He can get a little goofy at times though. I enjoy Bob James on synthesizers also. He did a great Rameau Pieces de clavecin album, and supposedly a now unavailable Scarlatti album, but no Bach that I know of and that's a shame.

I think rather it is baroque music in general, not necessarily Bach, that sounds good on almost any instrument.


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## echmain (Jan 18, 2013)

on a steel drum:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bach may sound "good" when transcribed, but he sounds "best", IMHO when played on the original instruments he intended the music for.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

echmain said:


> on a steel drum:


Proved: Bach, much like everybody else, sounds wretched when played on a steel drum.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lest we forget: 
of the instrumental plinkety plonk variety (which was all "Klavier" designated, and nothing ever more specific) the clavichord, capable of soft-loud and Ergo, dynamic expressivity, was Bach's favorite: that it is so quiet it is only suited for play in the smallest of rooms has a lot of his works written "fur Klavier" being done on Harpsichord (those specifically and clearly calling for a double-manual instrument are for harpsichord, of course.)

Lest we forget: 
The era was still very much about non-specific instrumentation, i.e. as much as we have works for specific ensembles, and Bach's ear did not fail him at all when he was writing for instruments. Much of his music, is said, has an abstraction where the instrument is a far lesser consideration than the notes. Later music more specifically conceived of for particular instruments requires more thought to transcribe well.

Lest we forget:
about singing some of the keyboard works, and other non-vocal works... the Swingle Singers
Prelude & Fugue No. 1 in C, WTK book I




Fugue from Fantasia and Fugue, BWV 542




a bit from Brandenburg No. 3




the Badinerie from another


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Bach may sound "good" when transcribed, but he sounds "best", IMHO when played on the original instruments he intended the music for.


I was going to rant and rave at the above, but then saw that someone has already made a good reply:



PetrB said:


> Lest we forget:
> The era was still very much about non-specific instrumentation, i.e. as much as we have works for specific ensembles, and Bach's ear did not fail him at all when he was writing for instruments. Much of his music, is said, has an abstraction where the instrument is a far lesser consideration than the notes. Later music more specifically conceived of for particular instruments requires more thought to transcribe well.


Yup. In fact, even decades later Mozart turned an oboe concerto into a flute concerto (or was it the other way round?). Those were time before standardized ensembles and composers often had to make do with whatever was available. And they did. Which is likely precisely why their music is often about structural beauty rather than sound effects.

Now it seems to me Bach was the great master of this. But it is not that unusual to hear Vivaldi concertos played on modern equivalents of original instruments, guitars filling in for mandolins, recorders used to play "flautino" concertos (because we don't even know what the heck a flautino was) etc. And think of just how many different versions we have heard of Pachelbel's famous canon.

Inevitably people will have their personal favourites. Me, I very much prefer Bach's solo violin and cello works played on guitar. Brahms transcribed his clarinet sonatas for viola as well. I think on the whole I prefer the viola versions, though most people will probably prefer the original clarinet ones. It is noteworthy that Brahms was perhaps the last classicist, and took a great interest in formal beauty. Perhaps this makes his work far more transportable across instruments than that of Strauss or Mahler. I have heard a very neat orchestration into a symphony of one of his string quintets.

I think with any such transcription/translation, you win some and you lose some.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

brianvds said:


> Yup. In fact, even decades later Mozart turned an oboe concerto into a flute concerto (or was it the other way round?)


Beethoven made a very nice transcription of his 2nd Symphony for Piano Trio. He argued (in a letter to the AMZ) that since Haydn and Mozart, only the composer could make an acceptable transcription. Always wise to listen to Ludwig. But the baroque was a different age.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)




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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I can not resist:

Bach even sounds good 'deconstructed' -- or when it is not quite all Bach.

Lukas Foss ~ Baroque variations, III ('Phorion') @ 13'45''





Bach / Igor Stravinsky ~ Von Himmel Hoch Variations


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## Fortinbras Armstrong (Dec 29, 2013)

This will probably sound heretical, but sometimes Bach does not sound all that good. I have a recording of _Die Kunst der Fuge_ that I have listened to exactly once. Quite frankly, I find much of it boring. Similarly, I have a recording of book one of _The Well-Tempered Clavier_ that I have also listened to exactly once, and I do not have a recording of book 2.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Stay with WTC Book One. It is a fantastic work. Listen to it on harpsichord.


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## Fortinbras Armstrong (Dec 29, 2013)

As I said, I found it boring, and am not likely to listen to it again.

Speaking of unusual arrangements of Bach, here is Leo Kottke doing Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring on the guitar


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Do me a favor. Don't listen to the WTC ever again.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Lest we forget:
> of the instrumental plinkety plonk variety (which was all "Klavier" designated, and nothing ever more specific) the clavichord, capable of soft-loud and Ergo, dynamic expressivity, was Bach's favorite: that it is so quiet it is only suited for play in the smallest of rooms has a lot of his works written "fur Klavier" being done on Harpsichord (those specifically and clearly calling for a double-manual instrument are for harpsichord, of course.)
> 
> Lest we forget:
> ...


Don't forget that Klavier could have meant organ certainly and piano possibly, not just harpsichord and clavichord. And not particularly plinkety plonk.

One thing we do know is that it didn't mean modern piano. Bach didn't write WTC envisaging a performance with big dynamic changes over short pieces of music, Samuil Feinberg style, for example. We can be pretty sure of that.

I'm not sure what the idea is supposed to be behind the abstractness of the music, that it's eye music perhaps? I think his music was about affekt and ideas, theological ideas. And the affekt at least depends on phrasing, transparency, timbre, touch etc -- the possibilities here vary from one instrument to another. So I would say he was definitely concerned with instrument choice, if only indirectly.

People dispute the claim that clavichord was his fave instrument, whatever CPE Bach may have told Forkel. CPE Bach was a clavichord nut I've been told, he was _parti pris_.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


>


You just ruined my life.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2013)

I agree that Bach translates well to other instruments. I do not agree that his keyboard work sounds best on a harpsichord. I find the harpsichord irritating and can only bear a few minutes of it at a time. Therefore I listen to WTC, the Two- and Three-part Inventions, the Partitas, Suites and other works on piano. 

I have three different transcriptions of Art of Fugue: strings, brass, and harpsichord. None of them can hold my attention for the full CD. So I gave up trying.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Don't forget that Klavier could have meant organ certainly and piano possibly, not just harpsichord and clavichord. And not particularly plinkety plonk.


Nope, that's just basically wrong, There are a few works non-designated, or at leasts that non-designated batch of four "Duets," BWV 802-805, which may have been for a two-manual organ without pedals, or 'any ole keyboard.')

But from the Bach works, these designations were understood as the following.

Klavier ~ for whichever variety of plinkety plonk stringed keyboard you had available, Clavichord or Harpsichord.

Orgel ~ designates the work is for some sort of bellows driven organ.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Nope, that's just basically wrong, There are a few works non-designated, or at leasts that non-designated batch of four "Duets," BWV 802-805, which may have been for a two-manual organ without pedals, or 'any ole keyboard.')
> 
> But from the Bach works, these designations were understood as the following.
> 
> ...


What about Clavier-Übung 3?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> What about Clavier-Übung 3?


Not that into Bach, and certainly not a musicologist, there is something quite strange that this is the only time I've seen a "German" spelling of Klavier _with a C_.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavier-%C3%9Cbung_III

I see book III is for organ (including those aforementioned Duetto works -- again, apparently not concretely designated for , at least, organ with pedals, being written on two staves only) and the rest of the series is for Harpsichord.

I'll leave it to you to inform me if there is some special significance and specific usage of this _Clavier with a C vs. Klavier with a K_, which may qualify as designating just any old keyboard, though how many staves the music is presented in is of course more than just a clue. You may be pointing out the one exception in the naming for these instruments in his entire output!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

scratchgolf said:


> You just ruined my life.


Hey, they are being introduced to the mystery and joys of Bach!

Now you know what all those most dedicated music educators deal with day in, day out, to educate youth about music and performance. I think you'll agree that each and every one of those educators deserves a medal 

Allow me to plunge you further into the depths of despair, with Xenakis' reduction of Tchaikovsky's Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy (Nutcracker) for a children's ensemble ~ at least this has a bit more charm.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

PetrB said:


> I'll leave it to you to inform me if there is some special significance and specific usage of this _Clavier with a C vs. Klavier with a K_, which may qualify as designating just any old keyboard, though how many staves the music is presented in is of course more than just a clue. You may be pointing out the one exception in the naming for these instruments in his entire output!


I think Bach always spelled "Clavier" with a C, as in "Das Wohltemperirte Clavier" (modern spelling "Das wohltemperierte Klavier"). "Klavier" is the modern German word for piano, while "Clavier" in Bach's time encompassed all keyboard instruments, in a larger sense even the organ. In practice, pieces written "für Clavier" were typically meant for harpsichord/clavichord or the emerging fortepiano, but as the mentioned Clavierübung Teil III (for organ) shows, "Clavier" was a generic term.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ebab said:


> I think Bach always spelled "Clavier" with a C, as in "Das Wohltemperirte Clavier" (modern spelling "Das wohltemperierte Klavier"). "Klavier" is the modern German word for piano, while "Clavier" in Bach's time encompassed all keyboard instruments, in a larger sense even the organ. In practice, pieces written "für Clavier" were typically meant for harpsichord/clavichord or the emerging fortepiano, but as the mentioned Clavierübung Teil III (for organ) shows, "Clavier" was a generic term.


Some performers have chosen to play some WTC preludes and fugues on organ - indeed some have recorded the lot on organ. Same for some Scarlatti sonatas (though I must say I've never found a recording of them on organ I've enjoyed.) Byrd Pavanes and Fantasias too, not to mention music by Froberger and Sweelinck. Harald Vogel recorded some of Orgelbüchlein on a pedal- clavichord, Power-Biggs recorded the Trio sonatas on one, and Luc Beauséjour used a pedal harpsichord for BWV 565 and some Schübler chorales. And there's even a recording of CU3 were some of chorales are taken on a harpsichord with just two manuals (Suzana Ruzickova), and a recording of Bach's violin sonatas using violin and . . . organ.

My point is that there's a lot of flexibility.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Hey, they are being introduced to the mystery and joys of Bach!
> 
> Now you know what all those most dedicated music educators deal with day in, day out, to educate youth about music and performance. I think you'll agree that each and every one of those educators deserves a medal
> 
> Allow me to plunge you further into the depths of despair, with Xenakis' reduction of Tchaikovsky's Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy (Nutcracker) for a children's ensemble ~ at least this has a bit more charm.


Yes, certainly better. The Air rendition had me on the edge of a building, ready to jump. The Nutcracker still said jump but reminded me there were options. I had to stop the music in the middle of typing this to keep my ears from bleeding.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Regardless, the WTC preludes and fugues will always sound best on the harpsichord the way Bach seems to have intended.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bach sounds best to me on the piano.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Regardless, the WTC preludes and fugues will always sound best on the harpsichord the way Bach seems to have intended.


Tastes vary! My two favorite performances are on piano. Even Bach was getting into the piano in his later years, signing up as a sales agent for Silbermann's instruments. He seems to have sold a couple, too!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

And that knock on the door last Sunday! I thought it was Jehovah's Witnesses! I could have had a Silbermann!!


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