# Variations on a theme of $composer



## bigboy (May 26, 2017)

Recently I was listening through Brahms "Variations on a theme by Paganini" and I was wondering if we knew how Brahms wanted his audience to listen to the 28(?) variations (if he intended them for public consumption at all)? Was the idea for the performer to play all the way through the variations in one sitting or was he or she supposed to choose a discerning sampler of variations?

What about other composers who have done the whole "variations on a theme" deal?

Shoving Brahms aside for the moment, how do you guys like to listen to these pieces? All in one go or just taking a few at a time like a musical apertif/digestif?


----------



## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

bigboy said:


> Recently I was listening through Brahms "Variations on a theme by Paganini" and I was wondering if we knew how Brahms wanted his audience to listen to the 28(?) variations (if he intended them for public consumption at all)? Was the idea for the performer to play all the way through the variations in one sitting or was he or she supposed to choose a discerning sampler of variations?
> 
> What about other composers who have done the whole "variations on a theme" deal?
> 
> Shoving Brahms aside for the moment, how do you guys like to listen to these pieces? All in one go or just taking a few at a time like a musical apertif/digestif?


Brahms played the Paganini Variations in his concerts, So yes, it was intended for public performance.
In the same period Carl Tausig also played these variations (just some months after Brahms)

Do you think it is hard to listen?
If you are just discovering the "variations" i would recommend you to try Schumann op.13, which is wonderful.
(I listen to all the variations, but my opinion on this is not valid)

The "tradition" is to play all the variations of a set, anyway in this Brahms work, sometimes people (specially in competitions) play only the first part (14 variations) or the second one.

All the best
Artur Cimirro


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Speaking of variations, the Bach Goldberg Variations get more dazzling as one proceeds through the mix. That was Bach's intention and it would be musical grafitti to isolate any of the variations as "excerpts" to spoil the composer's original intentions.

Every Theme and Variations is meant to be performed/listened to in totality.


----------



## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Speaking of variations, the Bach Goldberg Variations get more dazzling as one proceeds through the mix. That was Bach's intention and it would be musical grafitti to isolate any of the variations as "excerpts" to spoil the composer's original intentions.
> 
> Every Theme and Variations is meant to be performed/listened to in totality.


Actually I love Goldberg, but I was thinking that for someone who seems to feel Brahms's variations are "too much" for listening, like bigboy, Goldberg will be much more "problematic" because it takes longer, this is why I mentioned the other composer.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

In general, a set of variations is measnt to make a statement as a complete piece.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

cimirro said:


> Actually I love Goldberg, but I was thinking that for someone who seems to feel Brahms's variations are "too much" for listening, like bigboy, Goldberg will be much more "problematic" because it takes longer, this is why I mentioned the other composer.


Well, there's Book One and Book Two of the Brahms. It's not short.

I've never had the urge to ever excerpt any variations on a theme. I enjoy the totalities.


----------



## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Well, there's Book One and Book Two of the Brahms. It's not short.
> 
> I've never had the urge to ever excerpt any variations on a theme. I enjoy the totalities.


Yes, it is not short. Takes around 25 to 30 minutes both books together depending of the player
and even the Schumann I mentioned is not short - but maybe sounds better to a first-hand classical listener - it worked for several people already, 
Mendelssohn Variations Serieuses Op.54 is smaller, maybe a good start - or Alkan festin d'Esope.
while goldberg can be "too much" for a "first timer" (or not, of course.)

I completely agree, I prefer the totalities, but I have already heard people playing only variations (like the one from Hexameron - in a concert about Chopin, for example) - a rare event.

Best
Artur


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

cimirro said:


> Yes, it is not short. Takes around 25 to 30 minutes both books together depending of the player
> and even the Schumann I mentioned is not short - but maybe sounds better to a first-hand classical listener - it worked for several people already,
> Mendelssohn Variations Serieuses Op.54 is smaller, maybe a good start - or Alkan festin d'Esope.
> while goldberg can be "too much" for a "first timer" (or not, of course.)
> ...


Hi Arthur.

For me the Brahms Variations & Fugue on a Theme by Handel is a greater work than the Paganini Variations and is one of my all time favorite piano works.


----------



## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Hi Arthur.
> 
> For me the Brahms Variations & Fugue on a Theme by Handel is a greater work than the Paganini Variations and is one of my all time favorite piano works.


A wonderful piece indeed, This piece makes me remember I envy Rachmaninov, who in his students days needed only 2 days to memorize and play the entire piece for his teacher! 
A recording by Moriz Rosenthal would be my dream


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

cimirro said:


> A wonderful piece indeed, This piece makes me remember I envy Rachmaninov, who in his students days needed only 2 days to memorize and play the entire piece for his teacher!
> A recording by Moriz Rosenthal would be my dream


Glad you like it too! Reminds me, I have to dig up some soil and see if I can find some interpretations of the Handel Variations to compare!!


----------



## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Glad you like it too! Reminds me, I have to dig up some soil and see if I can find some interpretations of the Handel Variations to compare!!


Great! Share the results at some point!


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

cimirro said:


> Great! Share the results at some point!


Thank you. You are very kind, Arthur!! :tiphat:


----------



## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

I love variations. Especially in the tumultuous world in which we live today, they help remind me that the people united will never be defeated!


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

cimirro said:


> Recently I was listening through Brahms "Variations on a theme by Paganini" . . .
> The "tradition" is to play all the variations of a set
> 
> All the best
> Artur Cimirro


Not necessarily. There used to be a pianist called Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli who played the Paganini variations a lot, but he would take just a selection of the variations, he even made recordings. Some people think that his performances are very good.

These Paganini Variations by Brahms were really a sequence of etudes to develop the skills to play one of his piano concertos. He may have performed them in public to dazzle the audience with his finger skills. I'm not much of a Brahmsian, so I can't say whether they should be more than gym exercises for piano players' muscles!

Having said that, Claudio Arrau and Alexander Paley turned them into a great, deep, pilgrims progress, they completely obliterate any semblance of shallow bravura. Paley uses a Blüthner to great effect. And a few months ago there was a re-release of an old recording by a piano player called Mikhail Faerman, a reissue of a DG LP on Australian Eloquence, which I thought was wonderful! Also Agustin Anievas is well worth hearing I think.

Maybe more contentiously there's one recording of them by Michelangeli, a very late one from a concert in Bregenz in 1988 on Aura, which is, if I'm remembering right, more poetic and less virtuosic.

Variations can be hard, I've seen over the years that some people just can't get into them.


----------



## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Rachmaninoff said that he sometimes played his Corelli variations in their entirety, but sometimes also would edit his presentation as he went along based on his judgement of the audience's attentiveness or lack of it--coughing, fussing with programs, etc. So he'd just leave variations out, knowing that only a tiny handful of auditors would recognize that there were omissions, given that he had composed the Corelli only quite recently. The practicalities of a working composer-soloist.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

cimirro said:


> Great! Share the results at some point!


I have four performances of the Brahms Variations & Fugue on a Theme by Handel and played two of them last night and the remaining two, this morning.

The finest performance I have is by John Lill-beautifully controlled and powerful.

Almost as fine are the performances by Gloria Saarinen and Idil Biret.

Magnificent music and it was glorious being able to listen to it once again through four different interpretations.


----------



## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Rachmaninov "Variations on a theme of Paganini" springs to mind. I love that, especially the slow piece.


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> Rachmaninoff said that he sometimes played his Corelli variations in their entirety, but sometimes also would edit his presentation as he went along based on his judgement of the audience's attentiveness or lack of it--coughing, fussing with programs, etc. So he'd just leave variations out, knowing that only a tiny handful of auditors would recognize that there were omissions, given that he had composed the Corelli only quite recently. The practicalities of a working composer-soloist.


I love that story. R is supposed to have said "Sometimes I miss out a variation... or two ... or six!". What a pity he never recorded the work.


----------



## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Not necessarily. There used to be a pianist called Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli who played the Paganini variations a lot, but he would take just a selection of the variations, he even made recordings. Some people think that his performances are very good.
> 
> These Paganini Variations by Brahms were really a sequence of etudes to develop the skills to play one of his piano concertos. He may have performed them in public to dazzle the audience with his finger skills. I'm not much of a Brahmsian, so I can't say whether they should be more than gym exercises for piano players' muscles!
> 
> ...


Dear Mandryka

I didn't wrote this:


> "Recently I was listening through Brahms "Variations on a theme by Paganini" . . .
> The "tradition" is to play all the variations of a set "


I wrote this:


> "The "tradition" is to play all the variations of a set, anyway in this Brahms work, sometimes people (specially in competitions) play only the first part (14 variations) or the second one."


and I gave the example of playing only a variation as in the "Hexameron" cioncerning Chopin's one, in another post here

you mixed my answer with bigboy question... just to make clear who wrote what


----------



## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

hpowders said:


> I have four performances of the Brahms Variations & Fugue on a Theme by Handel and played two of them last night and the remaining two, this morning.
> 
> The finest performance I have is by John Lill-beautifully controlled and powerful.
> 
> ...


Nice I haven't heard them, but I will, thank you so much.
I heard Kempff long ago, it was nice. What are your impressions of his playing?


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

cimirro said:


> Nice I haven't heard them, but I will, thank you so much.
> I heard Kempff long ago, it was nice. What are your impressions of his playing?


He's fine in the Beethoven Sonatas.

For the Handel Variations, pianists named Leon Fleisher, Rudolf Serkin and Claudio Arrau should be investigated.


----------



## Forss (May 12, 2017)

Brahms' _Variations on a Theme by Haydn_ (Op. 56a) is, in my opinion, by far his (or simply anyone's) most accomplished work in the genre. I completely agree with some of the previous comments in that the form, as with most classical music, needs a certain _involvement_ and _concentrated energy_ to be experienced in full, and that one must consider each variation relative to the piece as a whole.

I also find the form to be significantly _philosophical_ in nature, as though the variations were views of one particular object seen from different angles, so as to get a _full_ overview.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

cimirro said:


> Dear Mandryka
> 
> I didn't wrote this:
> 
> ...


O right.

.........


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> There used to be a pianist called Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli who played the Paganini variations a lot, but he would take just a selection of the variations


Roughly in the same vein, here is a famous video of Jasha Heifetz playing Paganini's A-minor Caprice, except that he replaces the last variation with one of (I assume) his own devising, and it's even more wickedly difficult than Paganini's.


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

While we're hooked on Paganini, any views on Lutoslawski's Variations thereupon? Hough did the Rachmaninov Rhapsody and the Lutoslawski in the same concert at the Proms last year. Fascinating comparison and genuinely fun.


----------



## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Don't forget this set.


----------



## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Pat Fairlea said:


> While we're hooked on Paganini, any views on Lutoslawski's Variations thereupon? Hough did the Rachmaninov Rhapsody and the Lutoslawski in the same concert at the Proms last year. Fascinating comparison and genuinely fun.


I have seen Hough perform Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini live last year. Was amazing. Tears started in the slow variation. Have him performing it on CD with Rachmaninov Piano Concertos 1-4.


----------

