# Women in Music



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

A couple recent tweets:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/700316825523912704 [John Adams]


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/715564461990547456 [NWPR]


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/715994772821917696 [Song of the Lark blog (recommended)]

...which spurred this thread, over the weeks.

These are just a few examples of recent posts concerning women -- which, for the U.S.A. folks, is an issue at the forefront of our national mores ATM -- in classical music, both performing and composing.

Interestingly, I realize how little female composers are in my catalogue -- e.g., Beach, Saariaho, Boulanger, Fanny, Clara -- and I know, from my experience in life, that this fact is relevant. 
That is, everything I have experienced (and expect) in my life is from a male perspective, and I can refute the contrary opinion (of my life) all I want, but I will never (*never*) be able to contemplate another person existing as another gender (or race, or socioeco-- etc etc). My point being: My worldview is limited, and I find it incredibly important to be note the alternative, even if just for my sake alone.

Thus, I wonder, in music, like anything, has the _mobility_ in gender-based relations changed the _sound of music _over the years?

In other words, I ask:

Who are you favorite female composers? Does the music sound different, v. male composers? Is this issue important for you -- today, in yesteryear, in retrospect? Are women becoming particularly highlighted in solo realms, but still underrepresented in composition or program director status? Other thoughts?


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## Hmmbug (Jun 16, 2014)

I remember reading an interview that featured the modern composer Georg Frederich Haas. While the main interviewing point was on his sexuality, which I don't need to discuss, there was this quote that I found very interesting:



> [W]e agreed that the most feminine music we heard at Darmstadt was by Morton Feldman, and the most masculine was by Olga Neuwirth.


Haas says, in respect to the OP's second question, that there is no difference in male/female composing sounds. You might disagree - I might disagree - but I thought I'd leave this here.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

As men, what other fields do you know that have super-majority of females to appreciate?

Pageantry? Women's Sports? Runway models? Ballet troupes?

Now imagine all of them in that field are _really _meaningful to you and whom you respect for giving your life something special. Would not the fact they're all women come into play _at all_, even subconsciously?

That's what it's like for a (cis) woman to appreciate classical composers. A _crowd _of people of the opposite sex who are just downright wonderful. I don't begrudge the crowd to be mostly men, as that's just how it's been, and doesn't always have to be. But I've always wondered that since I'm a woman and the vast majority of my wonderful favorite composers are men that I have something (cis) men wouldn't quite _include _in their appreciation of music. If the tide turned, and maybe one day we had 50/50 split even gender proportions, men could understand this too, even a little? Perhaps it would teach men appreciation of women's qualities the way classical music has taught me appreciation of men? Y'all ain't all meatheads!

Quality quality quality. That's all I care about. Give me a good performer, a good composer, that if I closed my eyes, I would say "yes, this is good" and think nothing differently when I open my eyes. The day when gender is never mentioned is the day I personally as a woman am looking forward to.

Wow.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2016)

I like loads of great female composers, but it's only their music that makes me wish more people here appreciated them


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Women in music? Hey, this isn't the 1950's. Completely unnecessary.

Look at any of the big 5 American orchestras; the Berlin Philharmonic. Women have arrived!!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Women in music? Hey, this isn't the 1950's. Completely unnecessary.
> 
> Look at any of the big 5 American orchestras; the Berlin Philharmonic. Women have arrived!!


Just try telling that to the women who are still fighting to arrive.

How many women are in the Berlin Philharmonic? 19 out of 128!
How many of them are section principals? 0!
How many women conducted the Berlin Philharmonic this season? 1!

And that isn't for lack of available candidates.

(And I happen t like the BPO so my comments are not sour grapes)


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

hpowders said:


> Look at any of the big 5 American orchestras


Yeah, the New York Philharmonic must be about 40% women now. My orchestra back in undergrad was also about about 50/50 even, not in every section of course, but overall.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Yeah, the New York Philharmonic must be about 40% women now. My orchestra back in undergrad was also about about 50/50 even, not in every section of course, but overall.


Women have made terrific strides. Used to be "harpists, only". Blind auditions have really helped, in my opinion.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Becca said:


> Just try telling that to the women who are still fighting to arrive.
> 
> How many women are in the Berlin Philharmonic? 19 out of 128!
> How many of them are section principals? 0!
> ...


The US is far ahead of Europe in that regard. However, Berlin and Vienna we're all-boys clubs for ages. Progress has been slow over there, but it is happening. Once the Berlin and Vienna audition committees agree to blind auditions, progress will be accelerated.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

hpowders said:


> The US is far ahead of Europe in that regard. However, Berlin and Vienna were an all-boys club for ages. Progress has been slow over there, but it is happening. Once the Berlin and Vienna audition committees agree to blind auditions, progress will be accelerated.


Did you know back in the early 20th century, most musical societies in America were run by women? Because running music seemed to be a childish, profitless thing to men, so the _wives _of rich businessmen became the chairwomen of committees that worked to fund-raise for America's first orchestras. They were pretty fierce too, making strong judgments on what could or couldn't be programmed, and who could come and perform.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Did you know back in the early 20th century, most musical societies in America were run by women? Because running music seemed to be a childish, profitless thing to men, so the _wives _of rich businessmen became the chairwomen of committees that worked to fund-raise for America's first orchestras. They were pretty fierce too, making strong judgments on what could or couldn't be programmed, and who could come and perform.


Fund-raising was one thing back then. Women who weren't harpists playing in a professional orchestra, unheard of.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Women have made terrific strides. Used to be "harpists, only". Blind auditions have really helped, in my opinion.


On a violin forum that I belong to, one of the women violinists recalled how, when she was young, she was hired for an orchestra (very reluctantly) because of her excellence but her hirer explained that he would have to place her chair behind another male violinist who had played less well than her. That was about 30 years ago - the posters on the thread seemed to think that things were changing now, though it still wasn't perfect.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> On a violin forum that I belong to, one of the women violinists recalled how, when she was young, she was hired for an orchestra (very reluctantly) because of her excellence but her hirer explained that he would have to place her chair behind another male violinist who had played less well than her. That was about 30 years ago - the posters on the thread seemed to think that things were changing now, though it still wasn't perfect.


Many orchestra audition committees have been born again and in fairness use blind auditions to hire musicians. The quality of the playing is all that matters. I was very happy to hear that "my" orchestra, the NY Philharmonic began blind auditions a very long time ago.

It's hard to believe there was a time when Anne-Sophie Mutter wouldn't have stood a chance to sit in the violin section of the Berlin Philharmonic.

The days when women orchestra members had to be either harpists or flute players are over.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Many orchestra audition committees have been born again and in fairness use blind auditions to hire musicians. The quality of the playing is all that matters.


I can't think of a single kind of group work environment where a single technical skill, no matter how highly refined, is "all that matters." There are, in fact, all sorts of non-technical behaviors that matter, and very much so.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

IIRC the US orchestral season data indicate that about 15% of living composers programmed by US orchestras are women. Not huge, but obviously better than the 0% achieved by dead composers!
I have no idea whether 15% of living composers generally (regardless of whether programmed by US orchestras) are women. Perhaps over time this will naturally make its way up to 50% (assuming there's no inherent biological reason why women should be less likely to compose than men) and the phrase "woman composer" will be as helpful as "tall composer", but in the meantime I'm all for a bit of pushiness to speed things along.

Incidentally, the above reference to GF Haas's interview reminded me of another interview from the same source, with Olga Neuwirth. She was very scathing about his comments and about the patriarchy generally.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

> The US is far ahead of Europe in that regard.


In "our" main orchestra here in Denmark, there seems to be around 42 women and 53 men 
http://www.dr.dk/Koncerthuset/kor-og-orkestre/dr-symfoniorkestret/musikerne/musikerne.htm

Probably the same in Sweden. So not necessarily.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> The US is far ahead of Europe in that regard.


Right phrasing, on the other hand, sometimes things go back to the dark ages


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Talking about composers as opposed to performers, I can't see any obvious reason now why a female should be at a disadvantage over a male. Maybe I am missing or misunderstanding something, but musical composition seems to me to be one area where no difference should exist between the sexes in terms of artistic potential.


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## kartikeys (Mar 16, 2013)

It is generally believed in my musical circle here that 
women used to make good music. Lot's make music now 
but it fades in comparison. I enjoy great music, and fully 
appreciate the skill, without holding back. I do not, 
however, wish for a quota system in classical music 
or a system that promotes mediocrity, from men and women.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Haydn man said:


> Talking about composers as opposed to performers, I can't see any obvious reason now why a female should be at a disadvantage over a male. Maybe I am missing or misunderstanding something, but musical composition seems to me to be one area where no difference should exist between the sexes in terms of artistic potential.


You are right but you are missing the key point which is having the opportunity for it to be performed and making some semblance of living from it. There was another thread a few months ago in which that was discussed in relationship to opera.


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

Gosh,

When I was a really young whippersnapper back in the '60s I remember hearing Jeanne Demessieux playing her organ works
and was floored by her virtuosity and the complex harmonies she could coax out of the instrument. Sadly, she died in '69.

So, I for one have never considered the fairer sex as inferior in music or other spheres. Becca, I fully expect you to charge the barricades of the San Diego Symphony and its Board of Directors to address the inequalities you rightly perceive.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Avey said:


> Does the music sound different, v. male composers?


This is always difficult to answer. We humans can't help but factor gender into it at least until some enlightened future time that may have almost but not quite arrived. But . . .

I have had the wonderful experience of liking a composer I *long thought was male*. Cecile Chaminade's music is wonderful, engaging, drammatic -- everything I listen for in music. I just thought her name was one of those slightly feminine sounding (to us USA folks) French names like Camille Saint-Saens for instance or Émile Paladilhe, etc. I was astonished to discover her gender, but of course should not have been.

So I think that is an affirmative yes that there is no intrinsic difference as far as merit. In a way I hope there is at least some difference in terms of feeling. _Vive la différence_ after all.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Becca said:


> You are right but you are missing the key point which is having the opportunity for it to be performed and making some semblance of living from it. There was another thread a few months ago in which that was discussed in relationship to opera.


Why is this?
There seems no logic or reason, the merit in music has nothing to do with the gender of the composer, but I suspect your observation is likely to be true


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

If you can answer the question as to why some outspoken people in the classical music world still think that women should not be conductors, or at least they should limit themselves to so-called feminine music (whatever that may be), then I can probably make a stab at answering your question! Unfortunately there is still a lot of good-old-boys clubs, even misogynistic attitudes in many of those who make the decisions. Yes it is changing for the better, but too many woman still have to work twice as hard and be twice as lucky to get as far as an equivalently talented man. I know that many don't believe it but I have read enough cases of it *and* I have personally encountered it in the field of information technology.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

In The Netherlands we have the Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam. I've roughly counted orchestra members: 67 are male and 48 are female. Not that bad.

On the other hand: none of the seven principal conductors so far are female. Only 1 out of 66 conductors (principal conductors, guest conductors, etc.) in the orchestra's history is female. Het name is Xian Zhang. I thought she deserves mentioning!


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