# Haydn - Baroque or Classical?



## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

I'm in love with the baroque but I notice that Haydn's date seem to straddle the baroque/classical period. Are there early Haydn works that could be called baroque? Is there anything for a baroque obsessed listener in there?


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

Haydn's early work is largely of the same ilk as the baroque-classical transitional period music of CPE Bach and others. Even as far as Haydn's Storm and Stress symphonies you can hear work that feels like it has a Baroque theme. Specifically 38, the last movement.

However, Haydn is almost exclusively classical. Fantastic music!


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

He's classical era style, like Mozart (Beethoven too imo) :tiphat:

He's got some really fun work too!


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

I tried listening to his London Symphony No. 104 but only lasted about 20 seconds before I turned it off. He's probably not for me then.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

classical yorkist said:


> I'm in love with the baroque but I notice that Haydn's date seem to straddle the baroque/classical period. Are there early Haydn works that could be called baroque? Is there anything for a baroque obsessed listener in there?


Try his piano sonatas perhaps they appeal more to you.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

His early symphony set "Morning, Noon, and Night" may also be more to your taste than the later ones. Symphonies 6-8.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

classical yorkist said:


> I tried listening to his London Symphony No. 104 but only lasted about 20 seconds before I turned it off. He's probably not for me then.


Give it a good while, then try again. If you still don't like it, he probably isn't. It happens - we can't all like everything.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

The oldest works of Haydn I know, from the 1750s, definitely sound Classical to me rather than Baroque. Although perhaps it's more accurate to say they sound like _Haydn_, seeing as he was so important in defining what we now call "Classical".

But you could try the earliest symphonies and keyboard sonatas, or the first masses (Missa brevis in F and Missa rorate coeli desuper).


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

classical yorkist said:


> I tried listening to his London Symphony No. 104 but only lasted about 20 seconds before I turned it off. He's probably not for me then.


I'm not nuts about No.104 either, but enjoy very much a good number of his symphonies from early on up through No.55 as well as his "Paris" Symphonies (82-87), "Oxford" Symphony (92) and Symphonies 95 through 99. The only thing I enjoy after 99 is the adagio from his #102. To me, the song-like melodies of that movement sound like something that might have been composed by Schumann in the Romantic era....So, you might want to delve into some of the above. Also, as Pugg mentions, possibly try some of the Piano Sonatas....and definitely his Piano Trios performed by the Beaux Arts Trio.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

I'm going to put Haydn on the back burner, I've got so much other great music to listen to I don't need to get sidetracked into the Classical period yet.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Classical, I would say. In fact, in my view, Haydn has a strong claim to have created the classical style.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

classical yorkist said:


> I'm in love with the baroque but I notice that Haydn's date seem to straddle the baroque/classical period. Are there early Haydn works that could be called baroque? Is there anything for a baroque obsessed listener in there?


You may have more luck with Mozart, things like the fantasy K 608 and the Masonic funeral march before giving up on classical style completely.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

classical yorkist said:


> I'm in love with the baroque but I notice that Haydn's date seem to straddle the baroque/classical period. Are there early Haydn works that could be called baroque? Is there anything for a baroque obsessed listener in there?


I am glad you posted this because I was wondering the same thing but was afraid to ask. Specifically I was wondering if these two particular operas could be classified as Baroque, but alas they were written in the late 1700s which puts them several decades out of Baroque period:

















Another stupid question:

Should I always be capitolizing baroque? It is reference to a specific period or does it depend on the context in which the word is used?


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Florestan said:


> I am glad you posted this because I was wondering the same thing but was afraid to ask.


Never be afraid to ask a stupid question on an Internet forum, you can never see people rolling their eyes. í ½í¸
I've seen the dates of baroque as 1600-1750 and the classical period from 1775 so I just wondered what happened in those intervening 25 years.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

classical yorkist said:


> I tried listening to his London Symphony No. 104 but only lasted about 20 seconds before I turned it off. He's probably not for me then.


Many Haydn symphonies start off with a slow introduction, which then contrasts brilliantly with a lively, extroverted allegro. Perhaps you should have waited another minute and a half.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

classical yorkist said:


> I tried listening to his London Symphony No. 104 but only lasted about 20 seconds before I turned it off. He's probably not for me then.


Try the final movement of that work


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

If you like the Baroque and want Hadyn in which its legacy is strongly felt, listen to Symphonies 44 through 47. Much of this music has the irregular phrasing, emphasis on counterpoint, and thematic concentration of Baroque music. Start with 44 and pay particular attention to the finale!


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## Jacred (Jan 14, 2017)

Haydn is associated with development of Classical music as we know it today. Because of this, I would put him in the latter era (Classical).


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I haven't succeeded in hearing anything even remotely baroque in Haydn, but then again I'm not the most educated listener. Haydn is the best, though - he's becoming somewhat of a god to me.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

classical yorkist said:


> I've seen the dates of baroque as 1600-1750 and the classical period from 1775 so I just wondered what happened in those intervening 25 years.


As far as setting up the era of Haydn and Mozart goes, primarily what happened in those 25 years is that opera buffa conquered Europe. So much of what makes the "Classical style" different from the "Baroque style," from the simpler textures to the primacy of melody to symmetrical phrasing, comes from opera buffa. Above all, it was opera buffa's emphasis on contrast that laid the groundwork for what followed. That contrast can be felt at every level of Classical composition, from phrase structure (compare the number of melodic motifs you hear in a typical Mozart sonata as compared to a Bach prelude) to large-scale form (sonata form is nothing if not an essay in contrasts).


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Some Haydn early work use Baroque principle for effect. You probably have a better chance of absorbing that with HIP performances/recordings. :tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The earliest of Haydn Symphonies are classical pieces.

If Haydn ain't Baroque, don't fix him.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Xaltotun said:


> I haven't succeeded in hearing anything even remotely baroque in Haydn, but then again I'm not the most educated listener. Haydn is the best, though - he's becoming somewhat of a god to me.


Listen to this, a single (magnificent) movement:






Baroque(ish) features:

- It is a rhetorically strong finale, which was normal in the Baroque but uncommon in the High Classical.
- It spins out (_Fortspinnung_) a single theme, which is thoroughly typical of (virtually) all Baroque instrumental movements. By contrast, nearly all High Classical finales have multiple themes - usually they are rondos (or rondo-sonata forms) with contrasting episodes.
- There is copious imitation in the strings during the spinning out phrases
- Like Baroque music, the phrases are quite irregular rather than the common four-square structures of Classical.
- And, of course, it is an extremely dark, violent work in the minor mode. Works in the minor mode in the Classical are outnumbered by about 8:1 by ones in the major mode. And virtually none of them approach the intensity of this one.

There is more imitation in the slow movement, which is canonic.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

hpowders said:


> The earliest of Haydn Symphonies are classical pieces.
> 
> If Haydn ain't Baroque, don't fix him.


Spaghetti & Meatballs with Haydn t'night!

You, the world, may call them Classical if you wish, and for the most part they are (CPE Bach help). However, Baroque influence is evident amongst the first eight symphonies. Porpora (his composition teacher), Corelli, Vivaldi, maybe others. Cheers! Extra gravy, please. :tiphat:


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Vaneyes said:


> Spaghetti & Meatballs with Haydn t'night!


Did "Haydn's wife," Luigi Boccherini, cook the spaghetti meal for you? :lol:


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

I feel like Haydn is practically the definition of classical.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

classical yorkist said:


> I'm in love with the baroque but I notice that Haydn's date seem to straddle the baroque/classical period. Are there early Haydn works that could be called baroque? Is there anything for a baroque obsessed listener in there?


Classical sonata.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

I like the rich and yet traditional Classical era, Haydn is definitely the grand daddy in this era. Here a detail talk about Haydn String Quartet No.2 Opus 20 'Sun' by Saint Lawrence String Quartet in Google Talk. The first violinist at one point even saying Haydn is having Beethovenian theme, a Romantic-like ahead of his time. I like the very final attribute to Haydn by the speaker.


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

Try the first movement of symphony #9, a very baroquish-sounding piece whose energy and starkly tiered textures remind me of Francesco Durante - who, if you're looking for interesting baroque composers, is certainly one. Also the slow movement of #19 has a very baroque-style theme (and Haydn re-uses it in the slow movement of #29). The "echo" movement of #38 has fun with baroque cliches, and of course the palindrome minuet of #47 is an idea very popular in the baroque era (though Haydn, of course, adds his own style). But yeah, generally Haydn, along with CPE Bach, was in the process of pulling Western art music from the baroque ideal into the classical ideal and completely establishing what that latter ideal was.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Funny said:


> Try the first movement of symphony #9, a very baroquish-sounding piece whose energy and starkly tiered textures remind me of Francesco Durante - who, if you're looking for interesting baroque composers, is certainly one. Also the slow movement of #19 has a very baroque-style theme (and Haydn re-uses it in the slow movement of #29). The "echo" movement of #38 has fun with baroque cliches, and of course the palindrome minuet of #47 is an idea very popular in the baroque era (though Haydn, of course, adds his own style). But yeah, generally Haydn, along with CPE Bach, was in the process of pulling Western art music from the baroque ideal into the classical ideal and completely establishing what that latter ideal was.


I may dip a toe in at some point but thanks for this post it made alot of sense and really crystallised a few thoughts for me. What I've heard of the Classical period so far hasn't really got me going so I think it will be a while before I listen to anymore. I just don't really like symphonies all that much, we'll see...


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

classical yorkist said:


> I tried listening to his London Symphony No. 104 but only lasted about 20 seconds before I turned it off. He's probably not for me then.


Classical era music needs some getting used to when you're a baroque-fan. The foundations so to speak of the classical era are quite opposite to Baroque (in General). In a way there are more links between Baroque and Romantic. Some of the classical era aesthetics can sound a little silly compared to the more "serious" and "dramatic" effects of Baroque (and Romantic era). 
I learned to appreciate the balance and lightness of the classical era especially by chamber music (Mozart, Haydn, early Beethoven). For me chamber music is THE form of the classical era; it combines modesty, genius, joy, lightness and balance brilliantly. For me this combination indeed doesn't seem to work in large scale orchestral works; a Mozart or Haydn symphony doesn't really appeal to me.

but this definitely does:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Was Haydn just hidin from Baroque or did he run away from it? Guess he could not Handel it.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

So he went Bach home. Nowadays he'd have done that on Debussy.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Animal the Drummer said:


> So he went Bach home. Nowadays he'd have done that on Debussy.


Don't you know you should never finish on Debussy?


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

I spend my weekend watching more lectures on Haydn. Two of the string quartets explained in great detail in these videos, they are amazing. The lecturer expressed several times that Haydn was the earliest composer who made a lot of musical jokes.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Classical, in my opinion - even some of the pieces cited on this thread, when I listen to them, don't strike me as sounding 'baroque', even though they may use baroque features of composition.


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## Loukulele (Jan 7, 2019)

Just discussing this with my son, who was confused that although deemed classical there is still much baroque instrumentation in recordings of Haydn. Your conversation here has been very helpful, and I am actually starting to like Haydn now, I found him a bit irritating compared to Mozart and following a lecture by Harold Robbins Landon who had us all in tenterhooks as he balanced on a fragile period piano where we were all too concerned that it might collapse under him to listen properly to what her had to say! :lol:


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Perhaps the closest Haydn came to sounding 'Baroquish' is his Missa Brevis in F composed in 1749 and later revised.


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Perhaps the closest Haydn came to sounding 'Baroquish' is his Missa Brevis in F composed in 1749 and later revised.


Thanks for that. What a lovely work. I agree that it definitely sounds baroque.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Razumovskymas said:


> Some of the classical era aesthetics can sound a little silly compared to the more "serious" and "dramatic" effects of Baroque (and Romantic era).


Haydn and Mozart often liked to contrast the optimism and lightness of the other movements with more dramatic, serious middle movements, since they often worked with large structures rather than smaller character pieces (unlike many of the Romantics)


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

classical yorkist said:


> I tried listening to his London Symphony No. 104 but only lasted about 20 seconds before I turned it off. He's probably not for me then.


I did something similar then heard the finale of the 1st cello concerto as a surprise stocking filler at a concert. I'd never heard it before and I loved it. I went home and figured out what it was (it was uncredited but I guessed it was Haydn just because it sounded a bit like Mozart but also clearly wasn't) and listened to the whole concerto. Then I listened to the second cello concerto. Over the next few weeks I gradually listened to more and more. Now Haydn is amongst my favourite composers. Try the 13th symphony: it starts with a faster introduction and is a lot of fun.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

I'm a Haydn convert and evangelist now! I absolutely love him and his work, especially his religious works. What a brilliant body of work he produced.


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## Cellofrag (Jan 6, 2019)

80% classical, 20% baroque to me.


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