# If classical composers were film composers...



## Edward Elgar

A fun little excercise 

Imagine that classical composers were able to write film scores. My question is this: which genre would each composer be typecast for? By which I mean, the music of which composers would lend themselves to which of the genres listed below. These aren't the only genres so add ones you can think of. Here’s my list:

Action - Stravinsky
Adventure – Brahms / Mahler
Comedy – Poulenc / Satie
Crime – Schoenberg
Drama - Beethoven
Family - Mozart
Fantasy – Debussy / Szymanowski 
Film-Noir – Morton Feldman
History - Palestrina
Horror - Xenakis
Mystery – Berg / Webern
Romance - Rachmaninov / Tchaikovsky
Sci-Fi – Holst / Sibelius
Thriller - Bartók 
War - Shostakovitch
Western - Copland


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## Kopachris

I approve of this thread.


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## Weston

Nice list. I can't improve on it. 

Oh well, I might add Ginastera to action.


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## Aksel

Both Stravinsky and Shostakovitch wrote film music. But I'm not sure if Stravinsky actually wrote anything that wound up on the silver screen.


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## Delicious Manager

On reading the first post, I wondered if the poster was aware of just how many 'classical' composers have actually made a major contribution to the genre of film music.

Most obviously there is Shostakovich, who wrote more than 20 film scores between 1929 and 1971. His most famous are probably the scores for _The Gadfly_ (from which comes the famous _Romance_) and the 1964 version of _Hamlet_.

Other composers who made a substantial contribution to film music include:

Arthur Bliss
Aaron Copland
John Corgliano
Benjamin Frankel
Arthur Honegger
Jacques Ibert
Aram Khachaturian
Wojciech Kilar
Erich Wolfgang Korngold
Sergei Prokofiev
Alan Rawsthorne
Miklós Rózsa
Camille Saint-Saëns (inasmuch as he wrote the very first score for a silent film in 1908)
Alfred Schnittke
Toru Takemitsu
Ralph Vaughan Williams
William Walton


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## ScipioAfricanus

Adventure=Dvorak.


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## Edward Elgar

Delicious Manager said:


> On reading the first post, I wondered if the poster was aware of just how many 'classical' composers have actually made a major contribution to the genre of film music.


You do right to wonder. I do indeed recognise that many classical composers have written film scores.

However, my question is not; which classical composers wrote film scores? My question is; imagine _all_ composers were given the oppertunity to compose for film and given that fictional premise, which genre of film would they most likley choose given their musical sensibilities.

I know it's difficult to explain, but I thought my example would have made it clear what I was trying to communicate. Anyone who can properly word my question gets bonus points!


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## Art Rock

Delicious Manager said:


> On reading the first post, I wondered if the poster was aware of just how many 'classical' composers have actually made a major contribution to the genre of film music.
> 
> Most obviously there is Shostakovich, who wrote more than 20 film scores between 1929 and 1971. His most famous are probably the scores for _The Gadfly_ (from which comes the famous _Romance_) and the 1964 version of _Hamlet_.
> 
> Other composers who made a substantial contribution to film music include:
> 
> Arthur Bliss
> Aaron Copland
> John Corgliano
> Benjamin Frankel
> Arthur Honegger
> Jacques Ibert
> Aram Khachaturian
> Wojciech Kilar
> Erich Wolfgang Korngold
> Sergei Prokofiev
> Alan Rawsthorne
> Miklós Rózsa
> Camille Saint-Saëns (inasmuch as he wrote the very first score for a silent film in 1908)
> Alfred Schnittke
> Toru Takemitsu
> Ralph Vaughan Williams
> William Walton


Also very prominently: William Alwyn and Malcolm Arnold.


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## Delicious Manager

Art Rock said:


> Also very prominently: William Alwyn and Malcolm Arnold.


Yes, silly of me to miss Alwyn and (especially!) Arnold.

I suppose another 'A' could be Georges Auric.


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## emiellucifuge

How about: which genre of film would the music of these composers suit?


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## Rob

I'd like to add Bruckner to the film noir category. Everytime I hear Symphony No. 8 I somehow think of Miklós Rózsa's film noir scores.


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## Il Seraglio

Children's fantasy - Debussy, Tchaikovsky

Other children's/Family - Raymond Scott

Horror - Penderecki (if disturbing/graphic), Josquin, Dufay and Isaac (if gothic in theme)

War - Part, Gorecki

Myth/Tragedy (theatre adaptations) - Lully, Charpentier, Rameau

Germanic fantasy (sword & sorcery) - Weber, Bruckner, Nielsen

Greek/Roman/Old Testament epic - Handel

Romantic epic - Mendelssohn, Verdi

Film noir - Webern, Berg

Comedy - Rossini, Bizet

Drama - Schubert

Action - Beethoven

Adventure - Mozart, Haydn

Science fiction - Shostakovich

Documentary - unsure

Gay & Lesbian - Bernstein

Arthouse/experimental - Crumb, Varese, Berio


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## Air

The Scherzo of Bruckner's 8th Symphony could very well be Star Wars.


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## kanonathena

Many Debussy's piano pieces can be used for playboy profile videos, very sensuous.


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## Aramis

Movies about Robin Hood - Rachmaninoff


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## regressivetransphobe

Il Seraglio said:


> Documentary - unsure


Brahms

filler text


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## Amfibius

Rather twee English period romantic movies (e.g. Emma) - Vivaldi 
Silly Hollywood romantic comedies (e.g. anything with Sandra Bullock in it) - Vivaldi 
Preachy documentary-movies (e.g. anything by Michael Moore, Morgan Spurlock, etc) - Vivaldi 
Brain dead Hollywood action movies with lots of explosions and beefcake lead actors (e.g. Bruce Willis, Steven Seagal, etc) - Vivaldi 
Anything from Bollywood - Vivaldi 
Annoying cartoons from Disney - Vivaldi 

Ooops, noticing a pattern here?  The movies I hate should have scores written by the one composer I hate the most 

(Yes the moderators can kick my **** because i'm not even pretending to answer the question seriously    )


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## 4'33"

I think film music sucks. I'm glad the great composers didn't write for the film screen.


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## Curiosity

4'33" said:


> I think film music sucks. I'm glad the great composers didn't write for the film screen.


Pretty much agree, though there are some notable exceptions. Music designed to act as a backdrop for something else generally isn't up to much.


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## Delicious Manager

4'33" said:


> I think film music sucks. I'm glad the great composers didn't write for the film screen.


Oh didn't they? Here are some that did:

Arnold
Bliss
Copland
Frankel
Honegger
Ibert
Prokofiev
Rawsthorne
Saint-Saëns (he wrote the very first film score)
Shostakovich
Takemitsu
Vaughan Williams
Walton


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## Kopachris

4'33" said:


> I think film music sucks. I'm glad the great composers didn't write for the film screen.


Would you care to explain _why_ you think film music sucks?


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## 4'33"

Kopachris said:


> Would you care to explain _why_ you think film music sucks?


Sure. Symphonies, Ballets, Operas are all art forms where music sets the tone, the action and the form. The composer is free to write music that stands alone as a work of art.

There is a lot of cool little pieces that have come out of film music, but it is not an art form. As a film composer, in most cases, the music you produce depends heavily on the action of the picture and the demands of the director/producer. You have to find ways to express yourself within the context of someone else's vision. Since the music is written around the structure of the film it often can not hold its own structurally. Imagine if Beethoven had to structure his music around some movie - would it still be as great as it is now? Bottom line is, the music often does not stand on its own, so in general film music sucks. There are often brilliant moments, but they are not works of art. These days you don't even have to know anything about orchestral music to "score" a film - a lot of what you hear on TV are orchestral samples. It's very sad and degrading (trust me, I've written many scores for small films), but it's a job. Not art.


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## Amfibius

Well argued, 4'33".


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## 4'33"

Delicious Manager said:


> Oh didn't they? Here are some that did:
> 
> Arnold
> Bliss
> Copland
> Frankel
> Honegger
> Ibert
> Prokofiev
> Rawsthorne
> Saint-Saëns (he wrote the very first film score)
> Shostakovich
> Takemitsu
> Vaughan Williams
> Walton


I said the GREAT composers. Not 3rd tier. Except Shostakovich -but how often do you listen to his film music vs. his real music?


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## 4'33"

Thank you


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## Kopachris

4'33" said:


> Sure. Symphonies, Ballets, Operas are all art forms where music sets the tone, the action and the form. The composer is free to write music that stands alone as a work of art.
> 
> There is a lot of cool little pieces that have come out of film music, but it is not an art form. As a film composer, in most cases, the music you produce depends heavily on the action of the picture and the demands of the director/producer. You have to find ways to express yourself within the context of someone else's vision. Since the music is written around the structure of the film it often can not hold its own structurally. Imagine if Beethoven had to structure his music around some movie - would it still be as great as it is now? Bottom line is, the music often does not stand on its own, so in general film music sucks. There are often brilliant moments, but they are not works of art. These days you don't even have to know anything about orchestral music to "score" a film - a lot of what you hear on TV are orchestral samples. It's very sad and degrading (trust me, I've written many scores for small films), but it's a job. Not art.


I absolutely agree that film music is not art. However, does music need to be art to "not suck?" I personally enjoy quite a bit of film music (even without the film) purely for its entertainment and aesthetic value. (I am asking your opinion here, since everyone's definition of "sucky" is different.)


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## 4'33"

Kopachris said:


> I absolutely agree that film music is not art. However, does music need to be art to "not suck?" I personally enjoy quite a bit of film music (even without the film) purely for its entertainment and aesthetic value. (I am asking your opinion here, since everyone's definition of "sucky" is different.)


I guess it depends on what you want to get out of music. Film music, for the most part, sucks compared to what the masters wrote because it is often derivative, lacking in structure, and also lacking in musical inventiveness. But that is what you get when you are paid to provide background music for films that usually wash out the score with special fx sounds. Of course there are exceptions, such as the scores of Bernard Herrmann. Herrmann's scores are more like art because he demanded to be seen as an equal and was in complete control over what he did.

For my part, I love classical because the best classical combines great inspiration and great intellectuality. Whether it's a Beethoven Symphony or Feldman's Piano and String Quartet, great art leads you to places you've never been and challenges your head and heart. Film music, by definition, serves another purpose, and that is to sell the feeling and emotions of another art form. So, on its own film music is fine. Compared to the masters it sucks.


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## jurianbai

If I being asked,in a second I will say:

Haydn - culinary and traveling movie
Beethoven - Academy obsessed drama
Mozart - Box office action movie
Paganini - rock star bio
Chopin - korean drama
Liszt - racing
Bartok - vampire drama
Shostakovich - general horror
Schumann - softcore pxxx
Hovhannes - American fantasy
Vaughan Williams - UK fantasy
Wagner - WWII
Stravinsky - James Bond vs KGB
Ravel - Shanghai mafia
Tchaikovsky - Walt disney
Debussy - Europe indie
John Cage - quiz and puzzle
Ligetti - hardcore pxxx


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## Delicious Manager

4'33" said:


> I said the GREAT composers. Not 3rd tier. Except Shostakovich -but how often do you listen to his film music vs. his real music?


None of the composers I cited (deliberately) would I consider 3rd tier. Some, at a pinch I might agree would be '2nd tier' (perhaps Bliss, Rawsthorne, Saint-Saëns, Walton(-ish)). I consider several of them better (and more consistent) composers than Shostakovich (eg Prokofiev, Frankel, Takemitsu), while the others would be at the very least his equal. Unless you have concrete criteria by which to judge, surely it's largely a matter of opinion...

One should not forget that film music serves a completely different purpose to 'symphonic' music. By its nature, it has to be subservient to the action and narrative of the film it accompanies (one notable exception being Laurence Olivier's _Henry V_, where William Walton was given free rein to compose music to a strict brief and then the scenes tailored to fit it). However, there IS an art to writing a successful film score - the ability to create a mood or effect within a very short time span. Don't knock it.

Shostakovich's scores to films such as _Hamlet_ (1964 version), _The New Babylon_ and _Unforgettable Year 1919_ are among his finest work.


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## Nix

Il Seraglio said:


> Documentary - unsure


Philip Glass... or is that cheating?


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## Kopachris

On a related subject, how about films which use pre-existing classical music for their scores, such as _2001, A Space Odyssey_?


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## Edward Elgar

4'33" said:


> Sure. Symphonies, Ballets, Operas are all art forms where music sets the tone, the action and the form. The composer is free to write music that stands alone as a work of art.
> 
> There is a lot of cool little pieces that have come out of film music, but it is not an art form. As a film composer, in most cases, the music you produce depends heavily on the action of the picture and the demands of the director/producer. You have to find ways to express yourself within the context of someone else's vision. Since the music is written around the structure of the film it often can not hold its own structurally. Imagine if Beethoven had to structure his music around some movie - would it still be as great as it is now? Bottom line is, the music often does not stand on its own, so in general film music sucks. There are often brilliant moments, but they are not works of art. These days you don't even have to know anything about orchestral music to "score" a film - a lot of what you hear on TV are orchestral samples. It's very sad and degrading (trust me, I've written many scores for small films), but it's a job. Not art.


Your only argument is that the composer is not free to express himself outside the boundaries of the film. This, you say, is particularly detrimental when it comes to the form of the music.

My argument is that a pre-determined temporal structure and emotional goal as laid down by a director, may be (in some cases) beneficial to a composer. That is to say, it's one less thing for the composer to worry about during the compositional process. Throughout Beethoven's life, he always had sonata form as the potential default structural basis for his compositions. In my opinion, this would have freed his mind from structure and form, allowing him to focus more on harmony, rhythm and feeling.

Now the flaw in my argument is when we consider how a composer like Beethoven started bending the structural and formal traditions of music. This one cannot do in film music. But if it's beneficial for a composer such as John Williams who has a pre-determined structure before he starts writing, that may lead to music that has more expressivity and spontaneity than a composition in which form and structure have been laboured over during the compositional process.

I'm not saying expressivity and spontaneity are the most important goals of music, but they are cool.


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## Edward Elgar

Kopachris said:


> On a related subject, how about films which use pre-existing classical music for their scores, such as _2001, A Space Odyssey_?


Ah! That's when a director has used a composer who's music you wouldn't expect to be synonymous with that genre of film. That's certainly true of Kubrick's use of Strauss in a science fiction film.

He also uses the obvious choices, like Krzysztof Penderecki in The Shining.


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## Amfibius

Actually 4'33", what do you think of films like _Koyaanisqatsi, Powaqqatsi, Naqoyqatsi_ and _Baraka_? All these films have no spoken content - rather it is a series of videos with musical accompaniment. I would suggest that they would have far more scope for the composer to be creative than say, writing the soundtrack for _Star Wars_.


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## Eviticus

Edward Elgar said:


> A fun little excercise
> 
> Imagine that classical composers were able to write film scores. My question is this: which genre would each composer be typecast for? By which I mean, the music of which composers would lend themselves to which of the genres listed below. These aren't the only genres so add ones you can think of. Here's my list:
> 
> Action - Stravinsky
> Adventure - Brahms / Mahler
> Comedy - Poulenc / Satie
> Crime - Schoenberg
> Drama - Beethoven
> Family - Mozart
> Fantasy - Debussy / Szymanowski
> Film-Noir - Morton Feldman
> History - Palestrina
> Horror - Xenakis
> Mystery - Berg / Webern
> Romance - Rachmaninov / Tchaikovsky
> Sci-Fi - Holst / Sibelius
> Thriller - Bartók
> War - Shostakovitch
> Western - Copland


Excellent list and like most others i wouldn't change it. I would only extend it by saying maybe Wagner could cover ancient mythology (although apparently John Williams was heavily inspired by Wagner for his Star Wars scores), Vaughan Williams - period drama, Elgar - War/period dramas and possibly extend Tchaikovsky to cover childrens fantasy/general fantasy.


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## 4'33"

*Film music is a joke*

Although some great composers wrote for film, I can't imagine that having to subjugate your individuality and vision just to please some ridiculous director or producer would be very satisfying. Most film composers are just paid hacks, and that is all that they are required to be. Great art either stands alone or is a collaboration. Film music ranks with hair and makeup or lighting - paid artisan work.


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## Eviticus

4'33" said:


> Film music is a joke


Maybe... but i get it.


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## Alberich

I'd love to see Richard Wagner come back from the dead to score films.


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## kv466

4'33" said:


> Although some great composers wrote for film, I can't imagine that having to subjugate your individuality and vision just to please some ridiculous director or producer would be very satisfying. Most film composers are just paid hacks, and that is all that they are required to be. Great art either stands alone or is a collaboration. Film music ranks with hair and makeup or lighting - paid artisan work.


I invite you to think back at only a few of your favorite movie moments...aside from the few that may have been silent, perhaps the most memorable part of such great scenes is the music being played for the scene...you talk about collaboration and that is exactly what music for movies is; a collaboration between many people all striving to produce one great product. I sincerely doubt John Williams or Hans Zimmer have ever felt much aside from true satisfaction and pleasure at seeing their hard work join the hard work of many others including hair designers, makeup, lighting and those 'ridiculous' directors and producers. If they are the musicians I expect any musician to be, they are first and foremost satisfying themselves and what they want to hear before anyone else. I don't know if you've ever seen the scoring of a soundtrack but for the most part, they are given free reign over the work and are only x'd if the 'ridiculous' director sincerely feels the two won't work and you know what,...they are almost always correct.

Also, I don't consider any conductor of movies I enjoy to be a mere 'paid hack'.


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## Rondo

This may not be a very original list, but here goes. "Resume" examples of why I chose the composer in parentheses.

Adventure: V. Williams (Symphony Nos. 1 and 7)
Comedy: Saint-Saens (_Carnival of the Animals_)
Mystery/Horror: Bartok (_Miraculous Mandarin_)
Sci-Fi: Holst (_The Planets_, the inspiration of the _Star Wars_ scores)
Romance: Debussy (_Clair de lune, Danses sacrée et profane_)
Western: Copland (_Rodeo, Appalachian Spring_)
Thriller: Stravinsky (_Firebird, The Rite of Spring_)
Epic: Grieg (_Peer Gynt, Sigurd Jorsalfar_)


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## aphyrodite

This is fun.

Romance/Drama - Rachmaninoff, Debussy
Mystery - Chopin, Liszt
Children/Fantasy - Mozart
Thriller - Bach


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Documentary about Mahler - Mahler, traditional Austrian music and probably throw in some Varèse to even it out a little bit.


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## chee_zee

stravinsky is obviously sci fi


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I think Mozart would be fantastic for science fiction.


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## Eviticus

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I think Mozart would be fantastic for science fiction.


Really? What pieces?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Eviticus said:


> Really? What pieces?


Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, Divertimenti K136, K137, K138, Horn concerto no. 1.

I also think that Michael Nyman would be suited for films by Peter Greenaway.


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## Eviticus

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, Divertimenti K136, K137, K138, Horn concerto no. 1.
> 
> I also think that Michael Nyman would be suited for films by Peter Greenaway.


Do you have an idea of an existing sci-fi movie that these would sound good in? I'm trying to apply them to a sci-fi but nothing i think of feels right...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Eviticus said:


> Do you have an idea of an existing sci-fi movie that these would sound good in? I'm trying to apply them to a sci-fi but nothing i think of feels right...


Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope.


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## Eviticus

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope.


Nah...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Eviticus said:


> Nah...


Haha.


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## TrazomGangflow

[using the previously suggested list]

Action - Mozart
Adventure - Mendelssohn
Comedy - Gershwin 
Crime - Rachmaninoff
Drama - Beethoven
Family - Grieg
Fantasy - Tchaikovsky 
Film-Noir - Strauss
History - Shostakovich
Horror - Bach
Mystery - Brahms
Romance - Chopin
Sci-Fi - John Adams
Thriller - Wagner
War - Brahms
Western - Copland


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## 4'33"

kv466 said:


> I invite you to think back at only a few of your favorite movie moments...aside from the few that may have been silent, perhaps the most memorable part of such great scenes is the music being played for the scene...you talk about collaboration and that is exactly what music for movies is; a collaboration between many people all striving to produce one great product. I sincerely doubt John Williams or Hans Zimmer have ever felt much aside from true satisfaction and pleasure at seeing their hard work join the hard work of many others including hair designers, makeup, lighting and those 'ridiculous' directors and producers. If they are the musicians I expect any musician to be, they are first and foremost satisfying themselves and what they want to hear before anyone else. I don't know if you've ever seen the scoring of a soundtrack but for the most part, they are given free reign over the work and are only x'd if the 'ridiculous' director sincerely feels the two won't work and you know what,...they are almost always correct.
> 
> Also, I don't consider any conductor of movies I enjoy to be a mere 'paid hack'.


Are you a film composer? Because I am, and I know what I'm talking about. It's hack work -period. Occasionally glimmers of genius manage to break through from some of the greatest composers (of which I humbly do not count myself as), but for the most part you have to write to please someone else's vision. Writing a score is like writing a script as opposed to writing a novel - without the film to support its structure your not left with a very satisfying work.


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## LordBlackudder

tcicovsky - disney

samule barber - horror

beethoven - everything


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## ZombieBeethoven

Wagner - animated adventure apparently Flight of the Valkyries popped up in Rango. I suppose some will object to the use of this piece in this way. Personally, I enjoyed the tongue in cheek humor. Maybe some movies and their sound tracks are not "high art", but I still have to admire the collective efforts of so many people.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Action - Beethoven
Adventure - Wagner
Comedy - Satie
Crime - Stockhausen
Drama - Beethoven
Family - Nono, *Ligeti,* Stockhausen
Fantasy - Tchaikovsky
Film-Noir - Schoenberg
Greenaway, Peter - Michael Nyman
History - Shostakovich
Horror - Monteverdi
Mystery - Paganini
Romance - Chopin, Paganini
Sci-Fi - John Adams, *Ligeti*
Thriller - Wagner
War (tragedy?) - Pärt
Western - Gershwin, Bernstein, Copland, Carter, *Ligeti,* Randy Newman


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## davidsannderson

Wagner- epic fantasy/sci-fi/adventure, such as Star Wars and Avatar. And for me as a viewer, the music is a huge part of these movies. I don't think mythic storytelling would work in movies and the theater without a narrative voice, and in these movies, like in Opera, the music is the narrative voice. Also, I doubt they would know how to use music as a narrative voice without Wagner as an example.


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## helenora

in my opinion no applying function. Although I know they use some classical music in movies soundtracks to enhance effect of a scene....but no, for me it only means that the scene itself isn´t convincing enough without some " assistance" from other sources....then it´s music´s power that revives the scene, gives to a scene its significance.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Disney animated films: Glazunov

:lol:


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## Xenakigirl

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Disney animated films: Glazunov
> 
> :lol:


Oh dear me, I hope you're not devaluing it by saying that. He is a great composer, I assure you there would be better suited composers to Disney. :lol:


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## Huilunsoittaja

Xenakigirl said:


> Oh dear me, I hope you're not devaluing it by saying that. He is a great composer, I assure you there would be better suited composers to Disney. :lol:


Au contraire! Raymonda is already a Disney-esque fairytale which he mastered, and Glazunov would _transcend_ the fairytale genre if he was used for Disney films. Tchaikovsky already got Sleeping Beauty, Glazunov could certainly do something like Snow White or Cinderella remake.


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