# Mahler



## World Violist

He made overwhelmingly huge climaxes and developed themes and motifs over the course of an entire symphony in a fashion second only to Sibelius. Here are my favorite pieces of Mahler:

Symphony No. 1 in D major
Symphony No. 5 in C-sharp minor
Symphony No. 6 in A minor, "Tragic" (definitely my favorite)
Das Lied von der Erde
Symphony No. 9 in D major


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## Rachovsky

What can I say, I'm not a fan of Gustav Mahler.
Everything I have listened to sounds like a Requiem (maybe I haven't listened to enough.)
Is anything by him quick and lively? Presto? Vivace? even Allegro? :S

Everything I hear by him is either Adagio, Largo, or Lento. Suggestions?
The only thing I've heard that's interesting is the beginning of the horn solo in No. 9 and then it gets boring :S. Hope I don't get flamed now, lol.


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## Rondo

Wow. 

Check out Nos. 5, 6 and 7. There are some parts in those which are unforgettable!


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## ChamberNut

Still very lukewarm with Mahler's music. 

Favorite symphonies are 1, 5 and most of the 9th (very dark).

I don't enjoy his symphonies with vocal/choral.


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## Gustav

everything was fine until you said "second only to Sibelius". Could you prove that for us, please?


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## EricIsAPolarBear

Mahler is definitely in my top three composers (i have this habit of ranking absolutely everything)

I just got the Kubelik cycle of Mahler's symphonies, and a lot of the pieces are very good. I especially like 1, 2, 4, and 6 off of this set. For 5 and 9 I have Bernstein and Karajan respectively

My favourite Mahler recording I own is probably Chailly's Symphony No. 3.



> What can I say, I'm not a fan of Gustav Mahler.
> Everything I have listened to sounds like a Requiem (maybe I haven't listened to enough.)


When I first heard the opening movement of Symphony number 4 i was quite shocked, as it didn't sound like it expressed usual Mahler themes. Maybe try that one if you want an in to Mahler. I especially like how in the opening the flutes echo the bells.


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## Ephemerid

The Farewell from Song of the Earth I rather like, but I confess, I still haven't clicked with Mahler-- its an aesthetic that I find hard connecting with. I haven't given up on him yet though...


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## Chi_townPhilly

We has about a score's worth of people who let us know their responses to this topic, as well.


Rondo said:


> Wow.
> 
> Check out Nos. 5, 6 and 7. There are some parts in those which are unforgettable!


Not going to disagree with a syllable of this- but in the context of the prior post (someone seeking to "gain traction" with Mahler), I have to go  at the mention of 7.

This one would be the _last_ one to cross my mind as a proposal to a Mahler neophyte.


Rachovsky said:


> Is anything by him quick and lively?


Can't really call it lively, but check out the strings in the opening two movements of 5. Even if the "pulse" doesn't strike one as rapid, the agitation of the stringed instruments, I'm sure, doesn't feel anything like slow to those who play it. And, as long as I'm on the topic, you'll find the conclusion of 5 is very lively.


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## World Violist

Gustav said:


> everything was fine until you said "second only to Sibelius". Could you prove that for us, please?


Sibelius was known for his cohesive themes through a symphony. That's what I'm meaning. I'm not saying Sibelius was definitely a better composer than Mahler, but there were aspects of both that stood out. Sibelius' seventh symphony is the epitome of developing a theme throughout a symphony, quite possibly the greatest in that respect in history.

I don't mean "Sibelius is better than Mahler." I just mean that Mahler was really great in his development of themes throughout a symphony, second to Sibelius.

I just really hope _I_ don't get flamed...


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## Rondo

Chi_town/Philly said:


> This one would be the _last_ one to cross my mind as a proposal to a Mahler neophyte.


Well...maybe. Ive just heard it so much that it's become almost as commonplace as the 5th to me.


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## messiaenfanatic

Don't forget the unfinished Symphony No. 10. Definitely one of my favorite incomplete symphonies by anyone.


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## david johnson

second to sibelius? er....nah...i don't think sib is in the ballpark.
to each his own, though.

dj


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## World Violist

What I meant by that statement that seems to be sparking such controversy here is that Mahler was only second to Sibelius in cohesive theme development, not necessarily in anything else! That's all!


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## EricIsAPolarBear

I don't know if Mahler fans acccept that Mahler is second in anything. I heard that he is better than Kim Jong Il at golf!


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## Gustav

I listen to Mahler on and off, I don't listen to him that much now I am older. But, when i was a teenager i used to listen to his symphonies day and night. For some reason, I have gain more appreciation of the 3rd symphony over the years, it's really quite a nice piece. I would recommend the recording by Sinopoli and Philharmonia, and I also heard some wonderful excerpts from Farao Classics's website, the one conducted by Mehta and The Bavarian State Orchestra. 
you can listen to the excerpt here:
http://www.farao-classics.de/english/catalogue/mahler3-e.html


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## BuddhaBandit

I'm a huge Mahler fan, mostly due to the sheer epicness of his scale. It always feels like something monumental has just occurred after I finish one of his symphonies.



> Is anything by him quick and lively? Presto? Vivace? even Allegro? :S


That's not really the point with Mahler. His music is more about subtlety and gradual building than quickness and excitement.


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## Rondo

Ive always enjoyed Mahler's music so much that....I just don't understand why someone like Stravinsky would state that his music "...wasn't music...". I like Stravinsky too. A totally different style, yes, but to claim that it isn't music is a bit much.


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## Gustav

BuddhaBandit said:


> I'm a huge Mahler fan, mostly due to the sheer epicness of his scale. It always feels like something monumental has just occurred after I finish one of his symphonies.


Then, you might be interested in Bruckner also, just a thought.


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## EricIsAPolarBear

I don't see why people say Mahler is an acquired taste. I only really started listening to classical music this summer, and a fast favourite of mine was the 9th symphony with Karajan. The themes are so dramatic and lend themselves to real active listening (turn the lights off and blast it!). Ditto to Buddha Bandit's comments, something momentous _has_ occured after listening to any Mahler symphony. THe emotional intensity is almost unparalleled.

No composer so consistently digs so deep into me as Mahler.


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## BuddhaBandit

Gustav said:


> Then, you might be interested in Bruckner also, just a thought.


I like Bruckner a lot, too. I find his 9th Symphony especially powerful (what is it with those 9ths?  )


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## Gustav

indeed there are some mighty 9ths out there. Back to the topic of Mahler, I think his symphonic language is very appealing, i don't think there is a steep "listening curve" in his music. Bruckner, on the other hand, might prove to be a challenge for people. Well, if you are a good enough listener, you'll eventually be addicted to both composer's works. 

and yes, BuddhaBandit, Bruckner's 9th is powerful, but it is also true for his 8th. You might want to check that symphony out too.


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## BuddhaBandit

Gustav said:


> and yes, BuddhaBandit, Bruckner's 9th is powerful, but it is also true for his 8th. You might want to check that symphony out too.


Thanks, I definitely will. All I've heard so far are the 9th, 5th, and 0th (Null) symphonies. However, I'm thinking about investing in a complete set (including the 00th "Study" Symphony).


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## Gustav

BuddhaBandit said:


> Thanks, I definitely will. All I've heard so far are the 9th, 5th, and 0th (Null) symphonies. However, I'm thinking about investing in a complete set (including the 00th "Study" Symphony).


You might want to buy Eugen Jochum's complete symphonies with SD, I think you can buy it for 30 bucks.
http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symp...=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1200708387&sr=8-7

that's a really good "beginner" cycle. Maybe once you are more familiar with his other symphonies, you can go out and explore individual recordings of each symphonies on your own.


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## Chi_townPhilly

I have great love for Bruckner. Still (in the parlance of parliamentarians), I move the previous question.

As I've cited before, we've already done the "rank the Mahler symphonies" bit. Other places have done the "your-dream-Mahler-cycle" of recordings (and I _try_ to be original). So-- to view this topic from another angle, I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has a "memorable live Mahler experience." (Unfortunately, I have nothing to add to that kind of topic- but it'll still be vicarious enjoyment for me, probably.) Also, would anyone like to forward a triptych of great Mahler "single-piece" recordings? They might not necessarily be your favorite symphonies... just excellent recorded performances. I'll start-

1) Tennstedt- London Philharmonic, Symphony #5. This recording would be in my "desert-island" collection, if I was limited to a dozen. It might even make the cut at 10!

2) Solti- Chicago Symphony, Symphony #8. This recording is so admired in so many places that it's just impossible to ignore. Not necessarily one of my very favorite symphonies, but a great, great recording/performance.

3) Szell- Cleveland Orchestra, Symphony #6. Sorry, _Reb Lem_, I beat you to it. (I did leave you the French guy who conducted the CSO in the mid-sixties, as well as this Maestro's Symphony #4!) This recording has so many merits-- a) an incredibly committed live rendition, b) on the short list of best played 6ths, in-the-moment recording and all, and c) it's dirt-cheap, as well!! (Pricing points still matter to me.)


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## EricIsAPolarBear

In October I attended my first classical music concert. I was very excited, as the Royal Scottish National Orchestra was performing one of my favourites--Mahler's 3rd Symphony. I can't tell you how impressed I was. It was a great piece to see live, the sheer scale of the work coupled with haunting vocals and two choirs!


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## World Violist

When I first heard the first symphony of Mahler (Pierre Boulez), it was very good, but I felt there was something missing from the third movement. It is my second favorite Mahler movement so far (first is the 6th's finale). Then I heard Bernstein's first recording of it. It was PERFECT! I mean, after the second (klezmer) theme comes in, the violins take it over and Bernstein just makes it so amazing! It's like, da.............. da.............................. da.............................................. dum........ da-dum........ da-dum......... da-da-da-da-da-dum, da-dum.

It's just that awesome. And more.


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## Rondo

Here is what I have for the Mahler symphonies:
1-Haitink/Concertgebouw
2-Blomstedt/San Francisco Sym
3-Salonen/LA Phil.
4-[Not yet...though, eyeballing Walter/NY Phil.]
5-Rattle/Berlin, Haitink/Concertgebouw
6-Zander/Philharmonia
7-Tilson Thomas/London Sym.
8- Rattle/Birmingham SO
9- Abbado/Berlin
10-Rattle/Berlin

A little diverse, yes. But, if I could (and when I do) have more I would get Abbado's award-winning 6th, as well as his 3rd, Solti's 2nd, Zander's 9th, and Walter's 4th (more uncommon than the others). 
To me, each of the symphonies has a different feel which allows some room for a different conductor.


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## BuddhaBandit

World Violist said:


> When I first heard the first symphony of Mahler (Pierre Boulez), it was very good, but I felt there was something missing from the third movement. It is my second favorite Mahler movement so far (first is the 6th's finale). Then I heard Bernstein's first recording of it. It was PERFECT! I mean, after the second (klezmer) theme comes in, the violins take it over and Bernstein just makes it so amazing! It's like, da.............. da.............................. da.............................................. dum........ da-dum........ da-dum......... da-da-da-da-da-dum, da-dum.
> 
> It's just that awesome. And more.


Ah yes... i have the double-disc edition with the 1st and 2nd conducted by Bernstein and he does, indeed, handle the funeral march soooo well...


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## David C Coleman

I think Mahler is a great composer to hear live. As his works employ such huge forces and have a very theatrical air to them. Absolutely one of my top six favourite composers...


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## World Violist

What kind of irks me about Mahler, though, is that some conductors/orchestras can't afford such huge forces as Mahler requires... so some orchestras aren't big enough to handle Mahler.


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## Gustav

World Violist said:


> What kind of irks me about Mahler, though, is that some conductors/orchestras can't afford such huge forces as Mahler requires... so some orchestras aren't big enough to handle Mahler.


which recording are you referring to?


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## EricIsAPolarBear

I think the two best recordings I have of Mahler are Chailly's 3rd and Karajan's 9th.


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## World Violist

Gustav said:


> which recording are you referring to?


I'm just referring to some orchestras that just can't or don't want to pay for 10 harpists and whatever the heck else Mahler comes up with. I've read it somewhere.


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## shsherm

Perhaps the finest performance I ever heasd was the Chicago Syphony conducted by Solti performing Mahler 5th on January 23rd,1970 which just happened to be my birthday and I thought that I could not have a better present. My favorite quote about Mahler is in the jacket notes of the 1st by the Boston Symphony conducted by Leinsdorf. About 1960. "Mahler is not for Milquetoasts".


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## World Violist

Milquetoasts??? Hmm... I might have thought the cliche "not for the faint of heart." I suppose "milquetoast" could be just as good, though; nobody knows what it means... that I know of...


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## Yagan Kiely

> I have to go at the mention of 7


I can't understand why the 7th is so unknown...



> Is anything by him quick and lively? Presto? Vivace? even Allegro? :S


Is there are Symphony that doesn't have a lively bit???



> Then, you might be interested in Bruckner also, just a thought.


Bruckner's music is one big crescendo. That said, I do really enjoy is music.



> THe emotional intensity is almost unparalleled.


I'd say that R.Strauss beats him, just.



> I like Bruckner a lot, too. I find his 9th Symphony especially powerful (what is it with those 9ths? )


Shosta's 9th is my favourite of his symphonies.



> Then I heard Bernstein's first recording of it. It was PERFECT! I mean, after the second (klezmer) theme comes in, the violins take it over and Bernstein just makes it so amazing! It's like, da.............. da.............................. da.............................................. dum........ da-dum........ da-dum......... da-da-da-da-da-dum, da-dum.


Bernstein has to be up in the top three (1 for me) of Conductors or Romantic music.



> What kind of irks me about Mahler, though, is that some conductors/orchestras can't afford such huge forces as Mahler requires... so some orchestras aren't big enough to handle Mahler.


When WASO played his 6th they did a marvellous job with the Hammer. Not metallic, but just an extremely loud dull thud.


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## Rondo

I've heard some of Bernstein's Mahler, and Im going to step out of the mold here and admit that I never really understood what all the "hoop-la" about his interpretation is. Compared to masters such as Klemperer, Abbado, Rattle, Zander or Solti, I really don't.


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## Gustav

Yagan Kiely said:


> Is there are Symphony that doesn't have a lively bit???


That's a good question, Schubert's "Unfinished" comes to my mind as a symphony that doesn't have an obvious "lively" bit.



Yagan Kiely said:


> Bruckner's music is one big crescendo. That said, I do really enjoy is music.


I don't understand this, please elaborate.



Yagan Kiely said:


> I'd say that R.Strauss beats him, just.


what do you mean by that? For instance? Strauss and Bruckner are so different, i would never compare those two. Funny thing is, "emotional intensity" really doesn't apply here for neither composers. Not that there aren't "emotional" moments in their music, but this was not their principal aims when they compose. I am not an expert in Strauss, so far I have only gotten as far as hearing the "Eine Alphensinfonie", and I find it very analogous to Mahler's 3rd. Orchestral poem on nature, pretty detached from "emotional intensity" really.


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## Yagan Kiely

> That's a good question, Schubert's "Unfinished" comes to my mind as a symphony that doesn't have an obvious "lively" bit.


A Mahler symphony.



> I don't understand this, please elaborate.


It's a joke, much like saying Vivaldi wrote 1 concerto 500 times.



> what do you mean by that? For instance? Strauss and Bruckner are so different, i would never compare those two. Funny thing is, "emotional intensity" really doesn't apply here for neither composers. Not that there aren't "emotional" moments in their music, but this was not their principal aims when they compose. I am not an expert in Strauss, so far I have only gotten as far as hearing the "Eine Alphensinfonie", and I find it very analogous to Mahler's 3rd. Orchestral poem on nature, pretty detached from "emotional intensity" really.


The quote was about Mahler, not Bruckner. BUT: Strauss is an Operatic composer. His operas are soem of the most emotional I have heard. The Alpine Symphony is not emotional in topic no. Metamorephosen? Salome? Elektra? Rosen? You can't judge from one tone poem.......


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## Gustav

Yagan Kiely said:


> A Mahler symphony.


Which one? Just like you said earlier, there is some lively elements in just about every symphony, Mahler is no exception, now which of his symphonies lacked a lively bit?


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## anon2k2

Ah, Mahler. One of my favorites. I get chills running up and down my spine from so many of his works.

"Urlicht" and the deafening scream at the beginning of the last movement of the 2nd. The Opening solo trumpet call of the 5th, the "Alma" theme of the 6th, the haunting moodiness of the 9th, the plain wierdness of the minor keyed "Frere Jacques".

If it weren't so depressing at times, I'd listen to it more, but never the less, I have more Mahler recordings than any other composer.


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## Yagan Kiely

> Which one? Just like you said earlier, there is some lively elements in just about every symphony, Mahler is no exception, now which of his symphonies lacked a lively bit?


That was my question. Is there a [Mahler] symphony that doesn't have a lively bit? AND I was being half rhetorical - I personally doubt there is. But someone prove me wrong (Ignoring 10).


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## World Violist

The sixth symphony is pure genius, the way all the other themes come to sort of "haunt" the whole piece, especially the last movement, where themes are suddenly interrupted by others, sometimes hurled into those absolutely terrifying "twilight zones" (As an author of a book on Mahler symphonies so aptly put it). And then there are the three hammer-blows of destiny which are just amazing, the way he used that "dum, dum, da-dum dum dum" rhythm before they're struck.


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## Gustav

Yagan Kiely said:


> That was my question. Is there a [Mahler] symphony that doesn't have a lively bit? AND I was being half rhetorical - I personally doubt there is. But someone prove me wrong (Ignoring 10).


none, not that it matters, all of his symphonies (including das lied) include "lively bits" more or less.


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## Yagan Kiely

> none, not that it matters, all of his symphonies (including das lied) include "lively bits" more or less.


I know. I was referring to the person who asked that and stated that he hasn't heard anything that wasn't slow.


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## Chi_townPhilly

shsherm said:


> Perhaps the finest performance I ever heard was the Chicago Symphony conducted by Solti performing Mahler 5th on January 23rd,1970.


I meant to remark on this sooner. About 2 months later, they recorded this piece (at Medinah Temple). That recording is part of the Solti/CSO/Mahler cycle (the one given top billing by the Penguin Guide). Both Hurwitz's book and the Boston Symphony overview tome called In Concert speak of the challenges of the naked opening trumpet solo. It must be cause for great reassurance to have Adolph Herseth handling that responsibility.


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## shsherm

I attended a performance of the Mahler 6th on 2-10-08 at Disney Hall in LA with the LA Phil conducted by Christoph Eschenbach and the performance was excellent. Not as great as the CSO 5th with Solti but certainly meritorious. I lived in Houston, TX when Eschenbach was conductor of the Houson Symphony and heard wonderful perfomances of the 2nd and 3rd symphonies. After the CSO played the Mahler 5th in NYC, in 1969, Time Magazine which may not be the most authorative source declared the CSO the greatest symphony orchestra in the world. Two weeks ago 1-30-08, I heard the Royal Concertgebouw conducted by Mariss Jansons play the Mahler 5th and they did not equal the CSO performance I heard in 1970 although they are obviously a great orchestra. What I meant in my previous comment was that the CSO performance I attended in 1970 was the best orchestral performance I ever heard at any time and I have been to a lot of concerts.


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## BuddhaBandit

I've never seen any Mahler performed, live, but it is one of my musical goals to see Das Lied von der Erde, one of my favorite vocal works of all time, performed live at some point. The Philadelphia Orchestra, unfortunately doesn't do much Mahler.


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## World Violist

I would see the sixth symphony live over any other. Das Lied von der Erde would be excellent, also. I've not listened to that one very much...


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## EricIsAPolarBear

I've recently just "discovered" Mahler's 7th symphony. I listened to it the first time about a month ago but it never really grabbed me until this week. Parts of it are becoming my favourite that he has composed.


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## shsherm

Last night (2-25-08) I attended a performance of the Mahler 5th by the Czech Philharmonic at The Orange County Performing Arts Center in Costa Mesa California. I did not think that their performance of the Mahler 5th was very impressive but they also played the 5th Symphony by Bohuslav Martinu which I had not heard before and which was beautifully played and a very impressive symphony. This concert was obviously really long. These days the LA area has a lot of performances to choose from. The CSO is winner and still champion of the Mahler 5th.


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## World Violist

Rondo said:


> I've heard some of Bernstein's Mahler, and Im going to step out of the mold here and admit that I never really understood what all the "hoop-la" about his interpretation is. Compared to masters such as Klemperer, Abbado, Rattle, Zander or Solti, I really don't.


Really the only reason people love Bernstein's Mahler is that he does it with soul and spirit. Mahler is so wildly different than other composers in that he WANTED people to conduct it as grotesquely distended and soulful and with such wild abandon as did Bernstein. Some people may say he was over-the-top, but for Mahler he was perfect.


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## BuddhaBandit

For me, Bernstein's Mahler always sounds more epic and sprawling than, say, Solti's Mahler. However, I think Claudio Abbado does as fine, if not a finer job, than Bernstein on the later symphonies (6-9).


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## Chi_townPhilly

Discussion of conductors of Mahler=high potential for spirited argumentation.

Scherchen: s...l...o...w. Maybe it worked live, in a Celibidache-like way, but on recordings, I just don't get it. 
Klemperer: I feel that his deliberation and majesty work. I really enjoy the GRC _Das Lied von der Erde_.
Szell: Highly regarded for his recordings of 4 and 6. Don't know if I'd like him for a cycle, though. 
Bernstein: I don't doubt his "soul and spirit." Sometimes it seems like it's about _him_ more than it's about Mahler.
Slatkin: The "other Leonard" is underrated. In converse, one _never_ feels like it's about him. 
Gielen: Variable. Nice 1 and 5- but's what's up with his tempo fluctuations in 2? (Recordings are overpriced, too.)
Solti: I wouldn't easily give up my Solti/CSO Mahler cycle. There's something viscerally exciting about Maestro and musicians giving the impression that demanding passages are always under control. Sometimes one marvels more at the orchestra that at Mahler. Still love it, though.
Tennstedt: My _ichiban_ Mahler conductor. Commitment to burn, but with a dedication to the composer that's unequalled. 8th is more highly regarded by the critics, but oh, how I love that 9!


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## Rondo

Bernstein over does it, in my opinion. He has it played so fast that it becomes hard to hear all of the "inner workings" of the orchestration. There are some recordings I have, namely Abbado's ninth and Rattle's Eighth which I wouldn't give up for anything! 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Abbado actually won an award for his Sixth with the BPO didn't he?


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## Gustav

Rondo said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Abbado actually won an award for his Sixth with the BPO didn't he?


yes, and i have that recording. Abbado's mahler symphonies with BP are great, but the sound is not very good, which is a shame really. The 6,7,9th symphonies are my favorites. I am a little shocked that no one has mentioned Boulez's 6th, which simply blew me away...


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## Guest

The best way to get any conductor's measure is to listen to his or her recordings with score in hand.

If you do that, you'll find that far from being "over the top," Bernstein is just very, very good at following directions. If his performances of Mahler sound "over the top," that is because it's Mahler who's over the top, not Bernstein. Bernstein's are the most scrupulously accurate performances of Mahler I've ever heard. I remember the first time I followed Bernstein's performance of the sixth with the score: uncanny. It's almost as if you are hearing Mahler conduct.

This is true, by the way, for many of Bernstein's so-called extravagances: he's just following directions. Sometimes he was the very first to do so, so of course it sounded odd.


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## Rondo

There really is no objectivity in music-- it is an art. Composers write and conductors interpret. Both can be considered an art. There is no objective best for any composer, it all depends on what aspects of Mahler's composing you enjoy the most. What is considered loud to one person, may be moderate to someone else. A particular structural part of the score one person really likes, another may hate and want to "drown" out. To imply that conducting is objective is naive, to say the least.


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## Yagan Kiely

I guess we are lucky here in Perth Western Australia, in the past 2 years and this year (2008) we will have had Mahler 9, 10, 6, 3, 4 and Das Lied von der Erde.


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## Chi_townPhilly

some guy said:


> The best way to get any conductor's measure is to listen to his or her recordings with score in hand.


My perspective is "a useful aid in getting any conductor's measure is to listen to his or her recordings with score in hand." In other words, for me it's an assistance, but one of several. Sometimes, I even break out the electronic metronome... but I think if I go too far down that road, I'll make things just _too_ quantitative, like the infamous "Pritchett essay" that was torn from the books in "Dead Poets' Society."

So, *some*, do you have multiple Mahler scores? What a great resource that must be! As for me, I only have #5.


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## World Violist

I only have the Dover score to symphonies 1 and 2, but I'm trying to get 5 and 6... those two are, after all, my favorite Mahler symphonies.


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## the_mahlerian

I'm new here and as you can see, something of a Mahler fan. I've read this thread with interest and my main comment about Bernstein is that, before him, Mahler wasn't really that well known. Sure, there was Walter and Furtwangler and people like that, but to Bernstein's credit, Mahler would not be as popular and as played today as he is without his championing.

My first Mahler record was the old Barbirolli 9 which I bought on double vinyl from a jumble sale. That was me hooked. I have a few versions of each symphony and, yes, the Solti 8 from 1970 is tremendous. Rattle's recent version simply does not get the organ swell at the end that is really required. I'm not a huge fan of the 6th and find it hard to listen to. The 3rd doesn't really work, I think I understand what he was trying to do but it's worth a listen just for the finale. I love how the 4th just dies away without any climax at all. If you are new to Mahler, I would probably start at the 1st and work your way through in order. You can't go wrong with Abbado and the BPO, however Tilson-Thomas is a very good conductor of Mahler too and his San Francisco discs have amazing sound.


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## David C Coleman

the_mahlerian said:


> I'm new here and as you can see, something of a Mahler fan. I've read this thread with interest and my main comment about Bernstein is that, before him, Mahler wasn't really that well known. Sure, there was Walter and Furtwangler and people like that, but to Bernstein's credit, Mahler would not be as popular and as played today as he is without his championing.
> 
> My first Mahler record was the old Barbirolli 9 which I bought on double vinyl from a jumble sale. That was me hooked. I have a few versions of each symphony and, yes, the Solti 8 from 1970 is tremendous. Rattle's recent version simply does not get the organ swell at the end that is really required. I'm not a huge fan of the 6th and find it hard to listen to. The 3rd doesn't really work, I think I understand what he was trying to do but it's worth a listen just for the finale. I love how the 4th just dies away without any climax at all. If you are new to Mahler, I would probably start at the 1st and work your way through in order. You can't go wrong with Abbado and the BPO, however Tilson-Thomas is a very good conductor of Mahler too and his San Francisco discs have amazing sound.


What's your thoughts on the Klaus Tenstedt and the LPO set? Dirt cheap, but great quality I think..Good place to start the Mahler journey maybe?


----------



## the_mahlerian

I haven't heard any of that, I'll have to give it a try. Thanks!


----------



## World Violist

I just listened to Das Lied von der Erde (the whole way through); Fritz Reiner/CSO. It was so perfect... at the very, very end, as the music was gently dying away... and rain started to fall outside, softly enough to give a sort of poignancy to the music. The moment was amazing... and so uncharacteristic of Mahler, but oh so appropriate.


----------



## SamGuss

EricIsAPolarBear said:


> I don't see why people say Mahler is an acquired taste. I only really started listening to classical music this summer, and a fast favourite of mine was the 9th symphony with Karajan. The themes are so dramatic and lend themselves to real active listening (turn the lights off and blast it!). Ditto to Buddha Bandit's comments, something momentous _has_ occured after listening to any Mahler symphony. THe emotional intensity is almost unparalleled.
> 
> No composer so consistently digs so deep into me as Mahler.


I second this. My favorite way to listen to Mahler is late at night when it is dark and the apartment is quiet... put on the headphones and turn the volume up. It's incredible. I come away feeling like I just listened to something monumental as well. Because of this I usually only play some light (well what I consider light) piano music afterwards usually as anything else for a little while just doesn't satisfy - even some of my favorites like Dvorak 9.

Edit: After finishing reading all of this thread, I have definately discovered some new avenues I would like to explore in terms of conductors and recordings - thank you all!


----------



## World Violist

SamGuss said:


> I second this. My favorite way to listen to Mahler is late at night when it is dark and the apartment is quiet... put on the headphones and turn the volume up. It's incredible. I come away feeling like I just listened to something monumental as well. Because of this I usually only play some light (well what I consider light) piano music afterwards usually as anything else for a little while just doesn't satisfy - even some of my favorites like Dvorak 9.
> 
> Edit: After finishing reading all of this thread, I have definately discovered some new avenues I would like to explore in terms of conductors and recordings - thank you all!


After I listen to Mahler, I just can't bring myself to listen to any other composer. Mahler just seems to throw everything into a practically boring light. Mahler is just so full of life, so natural... his music just blows me away like nobody else.


----------



## Rachovsky

I am thinking about buying a new recording of Mahler and I'm thinking Sir Simon Rattle. I went on amazon.com and looked at his recordings and one is 15$, while the other is like $34. Anyone know why? lol


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## World Violist

Rachovsky said:


> I am thinking about buying a new recording of Mahler and I'm thinking Sir Simon Rattle. I went on amazon.com and looked at his recordings and one is 15$, while the other is like $34. Anyone know why? lol


2-disc vs. 1?


----------



## Rondo

Was one a SACD?


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## Rachovsky

$33.00
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Sympho...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1211823780&sr=1-1

$15.00
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Sympho...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1211823780&sr=1-2

See if you can figure it out


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## opus67

I think 'GRoCing' it just made it cheaper.


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## opus67

World Violist said:


> 2-disc vs. 1?


Wouldn't you need a conductor at the other extreme from Maximianno Cobra (should we call him Minimianno?  ) to fit the second symphony into one CD?


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## World Violist

The "Great Recordings of the Century" are usually cheaper than their original releases.


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## World Violist

I might be ordering the scores to a bunch of Mahler scores soon (if I have the money...)!


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## Rachovsky

Tonight I bought a book on Mahler's symphonies (along with Shostakovich's symphonies and concertoes). I'm excited to read each description of the symphony to truly understand it. 

I also bought Bernstein's recording of the "Titan" Symphony as well.


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## SamGuss

Rachovsky said:


> Tonight I bought a book on Mahler's symphonies (along with Shostakovich's symphonies and concertoes). I'm excited to read each description of the symphony to truly understand it.
> 
> I also bought Bernstein's recording of the "Titan" Symphony as well.


Let me know how you like Bernstein's recording and can you link that book? I think I might be interested in something like that. Thanks.

Sam


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## World Violist

Is that the book by David Hurwitz? I don't like it so much; I'd rather just have the scores and find things for myself. Besides, Hurwitz tends to make things far more complicated and "academic" than they need to be.

Bernstein's recordings of Mahler's first (both are very good) are... very good... but then again, I don't think I've yet heard a Bernstein Mahler recording (other than possibly the fifth) that wasn't great at least. Then again, you can't have a closed mind about it, else you'll never be able to understand.


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## Rachovsky

> Is that the book by David Hurwitz? I don't like it so much; I'd rather just have the scores and find things for myself. Besides, Hurwitz tends to make things far more complicated and "academic" than they need to be.


It is by David Hurwitz :S...I was going to buy another book that didn't go too in depth about the insturments and what their doing and such, but I got a discount on the Shostakovich book if I bought this particular book.



SamGuss said:


> Let me know how you like Bernstein's recording and can you link that book? I think I might be interested in something like that. Thanks.
> 
> Sam


The links are

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_...es:+An+Owner's+Manual+(includes+1+CD)&x=0&y=0
and
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_...+Manual:+Unlocking+the+Masters+Series&x=0&y=0

I just noticed both are by Hurwitz -.-


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## Yagan Kiely

If anyone has the score to his 10th, can they tell me what the 9-note dissonant chord is? I assume it is a form of V7 with an Appoggiatura I... but that makes only 7 notes and I can't work out what the other two could be...


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## World Violist

Yagan Kiely said:


> If anyone has the score to his 10th, can they tell me what the 9-note dissonant chord is? I assume it is a form of V7 with an Appoggiatura I... but that makes only 7 notes and I can't work out what the other two could be...


What movement is it in?


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## tomokioh

Hi, I am a 15 year old composer from Australia

I've been composing for about 2 years.

I've recently made a website on composition, so check it out!

www.write-your-own-website.com

I love mahler

He is fantastic


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## Christi

World Violist said:


> He made overwhelmingly huge climaxes and developed themes and motifs over the course of an entire symphony in a fashion second only to Sibelius. Here are my favorite pieces of Mahler:Symphony No. 1 in D majorSymphony No. 5 in C-sharp minorSymphony No. 6 in A minor, "Tragic" (definitely my favorite)Das Lied von der ErdeSymphony No. 9 in D major


Does he do anything that's not so tasteless ?


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## World Violist

If you're talking about tasteless as in cliches, then I don't think very much, but you could listen to his Fourth, which is rather classical-esque. Yes, it may be very cliche, but it's got more heart than most other composers I've listened to.


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## Christi

World Violist said:


> If you're talking about tasteless as in cliches, then I don't think very much, but you could listen to his Fourth, which is rather classical-esque. Yes, it may be very cliche, but it's got more heart than most other composers I've listened to.


The one about death and children


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## World Violist

If you're asking if he wrote anything other than Kindertotenlieder, he wrote a lot of other things and the death of children didn't take up that large a portion of his creative output. Check out the symphonies in general, then.


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## Christi

World Violist said:


> If you're asking if he wrote anything other than Kindertotenlieder, he wrote a lot of other things and the death of children didn't take up that large a portion of his creative output. Check out the symphonies in general, then.


Like what ones ?


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## World Violist

Christi said:


> Like what ones ?


Most people say to start with the First and Fourth, and I would start with the First, indeed. The Second is one of the best, but it's hard to digest unless you like really long works (as are all of Mahler's symphonies except - of course - the First and Fourth).

The First is very youthful and radiant, and the Second already has many more trademarks that continue throughout the rest of his composing career. I hope I've helped you, and if any other members can think of something else, please post it!


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## Christi

[QUOTE First is very youthful and radiant, and the Second already has many more trademarks that continue throughout the rest of his composing career. I hope I've helped you, and if any other members can think of something else, please post it![/QUOTE]What does Radiant mean ?


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## World Violist

Radiant is light, bright, that sort of thing.


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## westknife

I started with the 6th (the recent Abbado recording) and it hooked me immediately


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## PostMinimalist

If you only want the scores to read through and dont have any views to conducting a full orchestra then there are some good cheep japanese miniature scores available called ZEN-ON SCORE. There are wonderful looking commentaries in Japanese which I wish I could read, at the begining of each score.
TheDover scores have all the mistakes from the original editions which, while being historically interesting, are quite annoying. They are also large tomes and not very popular for concerts. They do have a translation of German terms at the beginning which I find very useful. 
Eulenburg are classic miniatures but the pages are often hard to turn and the spacing is sometimes so cluttered that you cant read the notes. But they are cheap and very handy.
FC


----------



## Habib

*Accessible symphonies by Mahler*



World Violist said:


> Most people say to start with the First and Fourth, and I would start with the First, indeed. The Second is one of the best, but it's hard to digest unless you like really long works (as are all of Mahler's symphonies except - of course - the First and Fourth).


I agree that a good place to start with Mahler is the 1st and 4th symphonies. I also like the 5th but I have recently borrowed a Naxos CD of the 9th and found it difficult to listen to in comparison to the above three. It seems that he just takes longer to get to the point, and there are so many different moods, themes etc. that it just doesn't seem to be as coherent as a whole unified work to me. I will give it time and get back to that recording of the 9th, but I think my favourite so far is his 4th. It is (from what I've read) the lightest of his symphonies. It doesn't lack depth though, the slow movement is very moving. So, like some of the people above, I'm not a big fan of Mahler, but I do appreciate his music. On the whole, I find Bruckner a bit easier to digest, he doesn't seem to have such a jumble of moods and themes within the same movement. But Mahler's symphonies are more varied in terms of the forces he employs, and I think it is delightful and refreshing, for example, how he uses a soprano in the final movement of the 4th.


----------



## tahnak

*Climaxes*



World Violist said:


> He made overwhelmingly huge climaxes and developed themes and motifs over the course of an entire symphony in a fashion second only to Sibelius. Here are my favorite pieces of Mahler:
> 
> Symphony No. 1 in D major
> Symphony No. 5 in C-sharp minor
> Symphony No. 6 in A minor, "Tragic" (definitely my favorite)
> Das Lied von der Erde
> Symphony No. 9 in D major


You talk of climaxes and I am surprised that you have not included The Eighth's and the Second's conclusions that I describe as the ultimate human spirit knocking at the gates of heaven!


----------



## tahnak

*Mahler's Ninth ... Boring?*



Rachovsky said:


> What can I say, I'm not a fan of Gustav Mahler.
> Everything I have listened to sounds like a Requiem (maybe I haven't listened to enough.)
> Is anything by him quick and lively? Presto? Vivace? even Allegro? :S
> 
> Everything I hear by him is either Adagio, Largo, or Lento. Suggestions?
> The only thing I've heard that's interesting is the beginning of the horn solo in No. 9 and then it gets boring :S. Hope I don't get flamed now, lol.


No! I am not going to torch you but hear me out patiently.
Mahler is not a Rossini or a Johann Strauss. If you are not a fan, I would appreciate if you don't run down Gustav with phrases like everything sounds like a requiem or seeking presto, vivace, allegro?

Yes Mahler is all requiem as he is stating the struggles with the wordly life as a musician. Life is a struggle and each day you die and need a requiem consolation.
Take his first symphony and look at the beginning and if you want presto, vivace and allegro, wait till you come to the conclusion of the movement, the scherzo and the finale and if you can't find it lively, then I cannot add further.

His ninth is a sublime individual account of his conversations with the Angel Israel and death knocking at the doors. The boring sojourn is a soul's struggle with questions and answers before he has to detach himself from the material world.

May God grant you the patience and the strength to hear Mahler's Ninth with a calm mind and open perspective and then you shall have tears in your eyes.


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## opus67

tahnak said:


> May God grant you the patience and the strength to hear Mahler's Ninth with a calm mind and open perspective and then you shall have tears in your eyes.


While your post may be taken as an invitation to those who are yet to discover Mahler, I think it is safe to say that Rachovsky has become a Mahler-fan since his original post.


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## handlebar

Coming way too late to this thread,all i will say is that Herr Mahler has changed my life in so many respects it would take hours to describe how.
My initial impression of him at age 20 was a revelation and now I own over 300 Cd's of Mahler's glorious music.
My book shelf holds 10 biographies along with many other musical impressions of him.
I take him everywhere whether on my iPod,ipod Touch,cell phone or cd's in the car.

Yes,I'm obsessive!!!

Jim


----------



## Aramis

*Exploding Mahler*

I've just read a note about Mahler which says:

_Mahler's music is full of suddenly changing moods, from melancholy to *hysterical explosions* (...)_

I would like to hear exploding Mahler. So far I've heard his No. 1, No. 5 and half of No. 9. No bombs there. What would you suggest?


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

The opening movement of the "Resurrection" symphony [Symphony #2] fairly leaps to mind unbidden...


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## handlebar

The second movement of the finished 10th (i know,i know-some don't consider that a symphony).
Also, the fourth movement of the 1st symphony. I love watching the audience when that hits as so many are lulled to sleep during the quiet third movement. Great stuff!!

Jim


----------



## Mirror Image

Symphony No. 2 and Symphony No. 6 have a lot of mood swings. As Jim said, the last movement of Symphony No. 1 is very exciting and bombastic.


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## World Violist

The Adagio of the 10th definitely has the biggest, most hysterical explosion I can immediately think of in Mahler. Goes from violins and violas playing pianissimo to a full-orchestra 9-note chord.

The first symphony has a really good one as well, as previously stated, in the transition from the third to fourth movements. And the sixth symphony has a good few explosions, in the last movement especially. You just have to know where to look with Mahler.


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## Aramis

I've listened to those pieces you mentioned. The only thing I can say is... well, this is not what I would call expressive, hysterical explosions. I guess I'm through with Mahler.

Thanks for your help.


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## Mirror Image

Aramis said:


> I guess I'm through with Mahler.


 So just because you read someone's description that says his music is supposed to do one thing, you're done with him, because you feel it doesn't do that? Whatever....


----------



## Aramis

Lol, of course it's not like that. 

First time I listened to Mahler was about six, maybe seven months ago. After listening carefuly to Symphony No. 1 I though that I could really like this guy. But I had much more composers to explore, so I didn't listen to him for some time. After few month I've listened to Symphony No. 9, then to No. 5, and realised that this is not "my" style. So I decided to leave Mahler alone. 

Now, when I found this note, I though "maybe I missed something?". So I created this thread to find out if I really did. But it seems that I didn't, and those symphonies I've listened to are enough to made up my mind about Mahler.


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## Mirror Image

Aramis said:


> Lol, of course it's not like that.
> 
> First time I listened to Mahler was about six, maybe seven months ago. After listening carefuly to Symphony No. 1 I though that I could really like this guy. But I had much more composers to explore, so I didn't listen to him for some time. After few month I've listened to Symphony No. 9, then to No. 5, and realised that this is not "my" style. So I decided to leave Mahler alone.
> 
> Now, when I found this note, I though "maybe I missed something?". So I created this thread to find out if I really did. But it seems that I didn't, and those symphonies I've listened to are enough to made up my mind about Mahler.


Okay, good luck to you. There's enough composers to go around for everybody. I'm thankful I understand Mahler and his music means a lot to me, so that's all I care about.


----------



## Dim7

Seriously, if you think the last movement of the 1st symphony has no hysterical explosions, you have to be deaf...


----------



## Mirror Image

Dim7 said:


> Seriously, if you think the last movement of the 1st symphony has no hysterical explosions, you have to be deaf...


Lol...I know really. Aramis clearly hasn't given Mahler's music a chance and he doesn't seem to want to give a chance, so whatever. I like Mahler and that's all I care about.


----------



## SPR

World Violist said:


> He made overwhelmingly huge climaxes and developed themes and motifs over the course of an entire symphony in a fashion second only to Sibelius. Here are my favorite pieces of Mahler:
> 
> Symphony No. 1 in D major
> Symphony No. 5 in C-sharp minor
> Symphony No. 6 in A minor, "Tragic" (definitely my favorite)
> Das Lied von der Erde
> Symphony No. 9 in D major


Is it true that Mahler insisted that no key be specifically assigned to No. 5? Probably doesnt matter in the slightest.

I just picked up a copy at the library of Bernsteins Mahler Symphony #5 with New York Philharmonic.... and that is what the liner notes say. In any case I am about to be 'introduced' to Mahler for the first time actually. I noticed that the 5th was referenced as a favorite piece often and thought I would give it a spin....


----------



## David58117

SPR said:


> Is it true that Mahler insisted that no key be specifically assigned to No. 5? Probably doesnt matter in the slightest.
> 
> I just picked up a copy at the library of Bernsteins Mahler Symphony #5 with New York Philharmonic.... and that is what the liner notes say. In any case I am about to be 'introduced' to Mahler for the first time actually. I noticed that the 5th was referenced as a favorite piece often and thought I would give it a spin....


Careful, if that's the one I think it is (link at bottom), just be aware that it's far from being one of the best examples of the 5th. The recording quality is atrocious and the orchestra sounds "off" from what I remember. I do have this set, and this is unfortunately one of the missteps of the release. I've been considering the Bertini set, and from what I've of his 5th...head and shoulders above the Bernstein.

http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Complete-Symphonies-Anna-Reynolds/dp/B0000589BP/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t


----------



## SPR

Thanks for the warning... I will keep that in mind. I thought that I'd take a few random somethings from the Library, no doubt I will wind up with some dogs.


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## World Violist

SPR said:


> Is it true that Mahler insisted that no key be specifically assigned to No. 5? Probably doesnt matter in the slightest.


Yeah, but the first movement is in C-sharp minor, so it's always labeled as such (even though that's the only movement (I think--don't hold me to this) in the "home key").


----------



## World Violist

tahnak said:


> You talk of climaxes and I am surprised that you have not included The Eighth's and the Second's conclusions that I describe as the ultimate human spirit knocking at the gates of heaven!


I definitely agree with these sentiments, but the pieces I had listed were my personal favorites--and these pieces have some fantastic climaxes as well.

In fact, I'd like to revise my favorite Mahler symphonies list, seeing as I don't really like the 5th at all anymore and my opinion of the 1st is steadily falling...

Symphony No. 2, in C minor
Symphony No. 3, in D minor
Symphony No. 6, in A minor
Symphony No. 8, in E-flat major
Das Lied von der Erde
Symphony No. 9, in D major


----------



## SPR

World Violist said:


> Yeah, but the first movement is in C-sharp minor, so it's always labeled as such (even though that's the only movement (I think--don't hold me to this) in the "home key").


nod.

this from that 'authoritative' wiki...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Mahler))

"The symphony's first movement is in C# minor, and the finale in D major. Thus the work exhibits progressive tonality; as a result, a titular description in terms of a single key is not realistic, and is not found in serious works of reference.

The symphony is sometimes described as being in the key of C♯ minor, but Mahler himself objected to this assignment: "From the order of the movements (where the usual first movement now comes second) it is difficult to speak of a key for the 'whole Symphony', and to avoid misunderstandings the key should best be omitted."

The 'New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians' represents the progressive tonal scheme by labelling the work's tonality as 'c#--D' 
-------------------------------

also:
Trauermarsch (Funeral March) (C-sharp minor) 
Stürmisch bewegt, mit größter Vehemenz (Moving stormily, with the greatest vehemence) (A minor) 
Scherzo (D major) 
Adagietto (F major) 
Rondo-Finale (D major)

======================================
I did like the piece...much to my surprise (me being a classical/baroque fan)...so I just picked up Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic version rather than the Bernstein/NewYorkPhil version that I borrowed from the library. Will give that a spin tonight if I have time. My music queue is getting full.


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

I am considering buying a Mahler symphony cycle, but I'm not really a big enough fan of his to buy cycle after cycle and compare and contrast numerous conductors. For right now at least I'd like just one complete cycle, and then possibly a few other supplementary versions of my favorites. 

With that in mind, I'm debating going with the 60s Bernstein cycle (which everyone says are landmark recordings and must hears, even if there are some "misses" in the cycle) or the Bertini cycle, which I guess many consider the most consistent in overall performance and sound. Suggestions?


----------



## World Violist

Poppin' Fresh said:


> I am considering buying a Mahler symphony cycle, but I'm not really a big enough fan of his to buy cycle after cycle and compare and contrast numerous conductors. For right now at least I'd like just one complete cycle, and then possibly a few other supplementary versions of my favorites.
> 
> With that in mind, I'm debating going with the 60s Bernstein cycle (which everyone says are landmark recordings and must hears, even if there are some "misses" in the cycle) or the Bertini cycle, which I guess many consider the most consistent in overall performance and sound. Suggestions?


I haven't heard Bertini's cycle yet, but everyone tells me I must. I just haven't gotten around to it and don't know if I will.

That having been said, if you must get a box set, get either Bernstein/Sony or Bertini (everyone talks of it being a great set all around). The Bernstein has been SACD-remastered, which is a definite plus...

Or, if you're willing to spend a bit extra on some out-of-print single issues, seek out the Mahler recordings of James Levine (there are some, such as the 4th and 5th from the original cycle, and 6 and 9 more recently released, that are in print). He never recorded the whole cycle (he's still alive, though, so one can always hope...), but his Mahler is easily the most exciting and satisfying I've ever experienced, Bernstein not excepted. Only problem is that with some symphonies like the 3rd, it's about $30-40 a pop. So you might want only to get those after your box if you like the music...

Whatever. Just do something. It'll be worth it.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Poppin' Fresh said:


> I am considering buying a Mahler symphony cycle, but I'm not really a big enough fan of his to buy cycle after cycle and compare and contrast numerous conductors. For right now at least I'd like just one complete cycle, and then possibly a few other supplementary versions of my favorites.
> 
> With that in mind, I'm debating going with the 60s Bernstein cycle (which everyone says are landmark recordings and must hears, even if there are some "misses" in the cycle) or the Bertini cycle, which I guess many consider the most consistent in overall performance and sound. Suggestions?


You might find a little help in this thread. For my primary contribution on that thread, see here.

Having said that, perhaps my favorite Mahler cycle is the New York Philharmonic's "The Mahler Broadcasts." However, it's only available directly from the orchestra, and it costs (by the standards of CD-set cycles) _megabucks_.

Also, there's no Lenny on it- but there's Mitropolous, Walter, Stokowski, Boulez, Tennstedt, Solti, Mehta... and more.


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

World Violist said:


> I haven't heard Bertini's cycle yet, but everyone tells me I must. I just haven't gotten around to it and don't know if I will.
> 
> That having been said, if you must get a box set, get either Bernstein/Sony or Bertini (everyone talks of it being a great set all around). The Bernstein has been SACD-remastered, which is a definite plus...
> 
> Or, if you're willing to spend a bit extra on some out-of-print single issues, seek out the Mahler recordings of James Levine (there are some, such as the 4th and 5th from the original cycle, and 6 and 9 more recently released, that are in print). He never recorded the whole cycle (he's still alive, though, so one can always hope...), but his Mahler is easily the most exciting and satisfying I've ever experienced, Bernstein not excepted. Only problem is that with some symphonies like the 3rd, it's about $30-40 a pop. So you might want only to get those after your box if you like the music...
> 
> Whatever. Just do something. It'll be worth it.


Haha. Well thanks for the heads up about Levine, I might definitely try to track down some of his Mahler recordings in the future.

It's just tough deciding whether to go with the consistency of the Bertini or the highs and lows of the Bernstein.


----------



## Serenade

I thought for one hoorrible moment there was no Mahler Guestbook, I suppose I should have known better.

I don't know Mahler half as well as I should but, Symphonies 2 5 and 10 are really rather awesome to me! He's probably at number 4 on the fave composer list.


----------



## trillian

my all time favourite composer. i wouldnt love anyone more than i love mahler.
also i started classical music because of mahler's work. das lied von der erde is just amazing. favourite mahler conductors would be berstein, tennstedt, walter and maybe boulez and abbado.


----------



## Weston

Today I almost "got" Mahler. I had his Symphony No. 7 (Michael Tilson Thomas / London Symphony Orchestra, 1999) playing in the background while I tried to ignore the predators on the phone and get some work done. Parts of it actually drew my attention as interesting. 

Oh, I had never disliked the music before. But neither had it spoken to me of anything memorable,, in spite of its hordes of rabid champions. It had always seemed kind of rambling and directionless to me - maybe because most of it is so epic and there are so many themes I can't keep track of them. I'm not sure. 

Today I noticed some unusual timbres and rhythmic skulduggery - almost as if some gamelan music had been rendered prettily instead of shrill, like a music box trying to play gamelan with pretty violin stabs above it. A most unusual passage. It's not much, but it's a start.

Now that something has grabbed me, maybe I can set aside some time to really listen with annotations at hand and "get" it the rest of the way. It's frustrating being deaf to something that moves so many people.


----------



## Sebastien Melmoth

I have a lot of Mahler--(three different symphony cycles, all the lieder, etc.), but I often think I don't _really_ like him.
He's sooo *n e r v o u s*, and hearing his music is so innervating.

(On the other hand, I find Schönberg relaxing--at least cathartic, so go figure...)


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## Guest

Mahler is incredible. I have not had him as heavily in rotation as of late, but for a while I was listening to him almost daily. His music is definitely more dense than most, so it is not as suitable for casual listening. But there is still little that moves me quite like his 2nd symphony, especially Urlicht, or his Das Lied von der Erde. Lately I've been giving more attention to his 9th and 10th symphonies (not meant to stir up debate on the legitimacy of the Cooke 10th - I also have several recordings of just the adagio).


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## GMSS

I'm a mahler fans, the first time of me to know mahler was his 7's final.
I love the timpani beat of the final.
The most touching symphony he had write, I think it should be his 9.
I love his nine's feeling.
Most of people think think that his 9 are full of the scared od dead.
But in my opinion, this symphony give me a feel of "retire from the world".
This may show mahler's feel to the world:
full of tragic, hopeless. so he want to "escape". This may like his das lied von der erde.
This is one point that i love his symphony.
Also his orchestration are great, by the extremely dynamic range and the balance of each kind of instruments.

I have 6 mahler cycles:
klaus Tennstedt,Gary Bertini,Leonard Berstein,Simon Rattle,Rafael Kubelík,Giuseppe Sinopoli
And i have most of his symphonies' full score
(symphonies no.1-9+das lied von der erde+das klagende lied+some lieders)


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## elgar's ghost

I started off by buying the 8th by Solti. Probably not the best way in but I couldn't resist adding a work subtitled 'Symphony of a Thousand' to my embryonic CM collection. At about the same time I bought Kubelik's DG cycle and then the love affair really took off. I now have six recordings of each symphony (except nos. 5 and 10 where I have seven and five respectively) so I think once I get to seven or eight that will do me. It's difficult to pinpoint favourite recordings but I would, no doubt with some hesitation, lean to the following:

1 - Kubelik (DG) or Solti (Decca) 
2 - Mehta (Decca) or Walter (Sony)
3 - Horenstein (UK) or Bernstein (Sony)
4 - Szell (Sony) or Horenstein (CFP) 
5 - Kubelik (DG) or Tennstedt (EMI)
6 - Bernstein (DG) or Barbirolli (EMI)
7 - Bernstein (Sony) or Tilson Thomas RCA)
8 - Solti (Decca) or Sinopoli (DG)
DLvdE - Klemperer (EMI) or Haitink (Philips)
9 - Maderna (BBC) or Karajan (DG)
10 - Rattle (EMI) or Barshei (Brilliant)

I love the lieder, too, whether for orchestra or for piano - Janet Baker's recording of the early lieder with pianist Geoffrey Parsons (Helios) is particularly sweet.


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## Sebastien Melmoth

PBS in America broadcast *Boulez* conducting the *C*hicago *S*ymphony *O*rchestra in *Mahler's Seventh*.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/episo...'s-7th/preview-the-concert/1035/#comment-5431

It was _really_ remarkable.


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## emiellucifuge

Sebastien Melmoth said:


> PBS in America broadcast *Boulez* conducting the *C*hicago *S*ymphony *O*rchestra in *Mahler's Seventh*.
> 
> http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/episo...'s-7th/preview-the-concert/1035/#comment-5431
> 
> It was _really_ remarkable.


Woohoo!

Im seeing Boulez conduct the 7th with the Concertgebouw orchestra this christmas!!

Having been listening to it a lot lately, i wonder why it is his least popular work? I like it a lot..


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## tahnak

emiellucifuge said:


> Woohoo!
> 
> Im seeing Boulez conduct the 7th with the Concertgebouw orchestra this christmas!!
> 
> Having been listening to it a lot lately, i wonder why it is his least popular work? I like it a lot..


I had the good fortune of hearing Boulez conduct Mahler's Ninth with the New York Philharmonic in 1976 at Avery Fisher Hall. It was my first hearing of Mahler's Ninth and what an impact that concert had on me. Only Horenstein, Bernstein and Kondrashin come close to that reading of Boulez.


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## tahnak

elgars ghost said:


> It's difficult to pinpoint favourite recordings but I would, no doubt with some hesitation, lean to the following: May I add mine to the side
> 
> 1 - Kubelik (DG) or Solti (Decca) Zubin Mehta/Israel+ Frank Brieff/New Haven
> 2 - Mehta (Decca) or Walter (Sony) Zubin Mehta/Wiener+ Israel + Solti/Chicago
> 3 - Horenstein (UK) or Bernstein (Sony) Zubin Mehta/Los Angeles+ Haitink/Berliner
> 4 - Szell (Sony) or Horenstein (CFP) Solti/Concertgebouw+Zubin Mehta/Israel
> 5 - Kubelik (DG) or Tennstedt (EMI) Zubin Mehta/New York +Horenstein/Wiener
> 6 - Bernstein (DG) or Barbirolli (EMI) Bernstein/Israel + Karajan/Berliner
> 7 - Bernstein (Sony) or Tilson Thomas RCA) Solti/Chicago+ Kubelik/Bavarian Radio
> 8 - Solti (Decca) or Sinopoli (DG) Solti/Chicago and Solti /Chicago and Solti/Chicago
> 9 - Maderna (BBC) or Karajan (DG) Boulez/New York + Kondrashin/Moscow Radio
> 10 - Rattle (EMI) or Barshei (Brilliant) Simon Rattle/Berliner + Wyn Morris/New Philharmonia.


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## World Violist

I don't know if my list of favorites has changed much since my last posting...

1- Boulez (DG)
2- Boulez (DG)
3- Boulez (DG)
4- Levine (RCA)
5- Barbirolli (EMI) (Only recording I've ever really found myself liking)
6- Boulez (DG)
7- Tilson Thomas (SFSMedia (though I haven't heard his earlier one...))
8- Nagano (HM) and Boulez (DG)
DLvdE- Reiner (RCA)
9- Boulez (DG) and Gielen
10- Ozawa (RCA; Adagio only) and Levine (RCA; Cooke II)

Yes, I'm quickly turning into one of those subversive modernist Mahlerites.


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## Sebastien Melmoth

emiellucifuge said:


> _Woohoo! I'm seeing Boulez conduct the 7th with the Concertgebouw orchestra this christmas!! Having been listening to it a lot lately, i wonder why it is his least popular work? I like it a lot.._


Nice!--lucky you!

I've lately taken to thinking the problem with the Seventh is that critics and audiences somehow feel the need to superimpose a programme on the work which perhaps runs counter to Mahler's (subconscious) intentions.

What I'm saying is that the movement subtitles 'Nachtstück' etc. actually betray the work's abstraction.

As conducted by Boulez, I take the work to be an essay in abstract Art Nouveau of timbre and rhythm.

Mahler calls for large orchestral forces, but throughout uses instruments sparingly in a chamber-like way. (This is something the Second Viennese School adapted.)

Tempted to pick up Boulez's DG reading:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Sympho...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1288543229&sr=1-1


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## World Violist

Sebastien Melmoth said:


> Tempted to pick up Boulez's DG reading:
> http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Sympho...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1288543229&sr=1-1


I heard Boulez's recording. It's actually remarkable; the only thing I didn't like about it was that the brass didn't blaze in the finale like those of many other recordings do. Apart from that, I'd say go for it.


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## emiellucifuge

My appreciation for Mahler has increased dramatically in the last few weeks..

I found this fascinating blog:
http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/mahler-in-manchester-a-performers-perspective/


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## World Violist

emiellucifuge said:


> My appreciation for Mahler has increased dramatically in the last few weeks..
> 
> I found this fascinating blog:
> http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/mahler-in-manchester-a-performers-perspective/


I haven't seen this before... it's really good! I especially like the whole thing about the wall of octaves in the beginning of Mahler 1, and then the winds having to hit not only the octave directly, but then the next strongest note of the overtone series. Now I think of it, it's really nigh impossible, isn't it!


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## sospiro

Hello from the other side.

I'm going to this at Royal Festival Hall. I don't know Mahler at all & would really like to do some homework before I go.

Can anyone recommend a CD of the Rückert-Lieder & of the 4th?

Thanks


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## World Violist

I'm not familiar with either work all that much, but for the Ruckert-Lieder you probably couldn't go wrong with Boulez's latest recording on DG:










As for the fourth, this one should be fine; I've got it but don't really listen to it at all (because I like other symphonies better in general), and besides, it's very inexpensive:


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## emiellucifuge

If you dont know Mahler very well the 4th is a good place to start. I saw Maazel conducting the 6th, his take on Mahler is slightly odd - very slow and controlled, so dont take his view as THE view.


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## sospiro

Thanks guys, very helpful.

:tiphat:


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## David58117

I just had this "Complete works" set arrive (after almost 3 weeks!):

http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Complete-Works-150th-Anniversary/dp/B003D0ZNWY/ref=pd_bxgy_m_img_b

Not much time to listen to it yet, but I've liked what I've heard so far (1st was good, 2nd good but not my fav., I think I remember the sound quality on the fourth or third being a little lacking, can't remember which, 5th good as well, 6th first movement was a little too slow and dragged out more than I liked).

Also the Bertini set dropped to around 35 usd if anyone is interested.


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## myaskovsky2002

*My preferences*

I prefer Mahler's "collegues", Zemlinsky (for whom he composed the overture of his opera Zalema) and Schreker...The three of them from Vienna, the three of them Jewish as Schönberg , Wellesz and Webern

Martin Pitchon, Jewish also


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## Huilunsoittaja

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Schreker


"Schreckliche Musik!" 

I think that was a great pun on his name.


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## opus55

Rachovsky said:


> What can I say, I'm not a fan of Gustav Mahler.
> Everything I have listened to sounds like a Requiem (maybe I haven't listened to enough.)
> Is anything by him quick and lively? Presto? Vivace? even Allegro? :S
> 
> Everything I hear by him is either Adagio, Largo, or Lento. Suggestions?
> ...


His 4th symphony is lively and compact compared to his other symphonies. Also, the opening movements of 5th and 6th are very intense - very far from boring.


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## myaskovsky2002

??????????????????

Schreckliche Musik (was is das?)

http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/2030774101

I'd rather mention:

http://entartetemusik.blogspot.com/

This is appropriate.....MY German sucks!

Martin


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## Huilunsoittaja

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Schreckliche Musik (was is das?)


Google: "Schreckliche Musik, Glazunov"

I must note, it was rarely his intention to hurt anyone, there was no "vileness" in him, but he found a great chance for a pun there though, I give him credit for that.


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## johogofo

My first encounter with Mahler was his 1st, which I felt was nice and intresting.But it didn't move me enough to make me dive into Mahler's universe.
Over the years I became a Bruckner fanatic.
Recently I listened to Mahler's 2nd (by Walter) and it blew me away!!! I went on with the 5th (Abbado) ,6th (Jansons) 8th (Shaw) and they ALL blew me away too.What greate music I was missing.
I guess that my understuding of Bruckner's music helped me getting into Mahler's.(maybe?)
I've also ordered from amazon the rest of Mahler's symphonies (3,4,7 and9 ) and I'm anxious to listen to them.


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## opus55

johogofo said:


> ...Recently I listened to Mahler's 2nd (by Walter) and it blew me away!!!..


6th by Boulez drew me into Mahler then I was also blown away when I heard 2nd by Walter.


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## Wicked_one

Is there any box set or DVD set of Eschenbach's Mahler? I've listened to the 4th, 5th and 6th with Eschenbach conducting and I was wondering if there's more  (if anyone knows)


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## Weston

I spent the (American) holiday weekend with friends and saw on PBS a guide to Mahler's 1st symphony hosted by Michael Tilson Thomas. He is very enthusiastic about this music and it almost made me finally _get_ Mahler. At the end was an ad for an entire series of these guides, presumably one for each Mahler symphony? It was pretty cool being able to talk with real live people (not that you folks aren't real, but you know what I mean) about classical music for a change, brief as it was.

Has anyone else seen this show? I think the series is called "Keeping Score" Is it new or something that has been around for a while? I'd like to rent the DVD's if possible or watch it online somewhere. Maybe I will finally start to enjoy Mahler, because by all rights I should. I don't really understand why Mahler has never clicked with me.


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## World Violist

Weston said:


> I spent the (American) holiday weekend with friends and saw on PBS a guide to Mahler's 1st symphony hosted by Michael Tilson Thomas. He is very enthusiastic about this music and it almost made me finally _get_ Mahler. At the end was an ad for an entire series of these guides, presumably one for each Mahler symphony? It was pretty cool being able to talk with real live people (not that you folks aren't real, but you know what I mean) about classical music for a change, brief as it was.
> 
> Has anyone else seen this show? I think the series is called "Keeping Score" Is it new or something that has been around for a while? I'd like to rent the DVD's if possible or watch it online somewhere. Maybe I will finally start to enjoy Mahler, because by all rights I should. I don't really understand why Mahler has never clicked with me.


The Keeping Score series has been around for a few years; they tend to release a few programs every year or so. Some past programs are about The Rite of Spring, Shostakovich 5, Beethoven 3, Ives' Holiday Symphony, Berlioz's Fantastique, etc. This Mahler one consists of two programs and two concerts, one each for Mahler 1 and for assorted notable movements.

No, there isn't one for every symphony, but I actually think they did a fairly good job with this set.


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## eorrific

Can anyone recommend me the best version for Mahler's 2nd symphony?
I've only heard it once, which I had watched on youtube and it was conducted by Leonard Bernstein.


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## haydnfan

eorrific said:


> Can anyone recommend me the best version for Mahler's 2nd symphony?
> I've only heard it once, which I had watched on youtube and it was conducted by Leonard Bernstein.


I like Maazel and Klemperer.


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## Guest

eorrific said:


> Can anyone recommend me the best version for Mahler's 2nd symphony?
> I've only heard it once, which I had watched on youtube and it was conducted by Leonard Bernstein.


Hmm, that is a loaded question. I have several favorites, but there are a lot of good recordings out there.

Klemperer/Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra - EMI (not to be confused with the studio recording, part of the Great Recordings of the Century - this is a live recording)

Bernstein/New York Philharmonic - DG

Mehta/Vienna Philharmonic - Decca

This is my favorite symphony of all - I have other recordings as well, that I also enjoy, but those three are my favorites, in order.


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## Couchie

Couldn't pretty much anybody compose as Mahler did, if they could be bothered to commit such idealess music to paper and were capable of orchestrating it well?


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## Meaghan

Couchie said:


> Couldn't pretty much anybody compose as Mahler did, if they could be bothered to commit such idealess music to paper and were capable of orchestrating it well?


Oh, you poor thing. There, there. 



eorrific said:


> Can anyone recommend me the best version for Mahler's 2nd symphony?
> I've only heard it once, which I had watched on youtube and it was conducted by Leonard Bernstein.


Bernstein is actually my favorite conductor for Mahler 2. I find that symphony particularly well-suited to Bernstein's conducting style.


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## Manxfeeder

DrMike said:


> Klemperer/Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra - EMI (not to be confused with the studio recording, part of the Great Recordings of the Century - this is a live recording)
> 
> Bernstein/New York Philharmonic - DG
> 
> Mehta/Vienna Philharmonic - Decca


Yeah, I have the Great Recordings Klemperer, and I just noticed I don't listen to it that much. Mehta, absolutely.


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## Guest

I actually agree with Couchie. I think Mahler very, very over-rated: a musical windbag is the kindest way of putting this. I don't call it ídea-less, however, as it shows some thought - I just don't think it works at all and is too Wagnerian in its meanderings for my taste. Flaccid, hard to grasp the "subjects and ruminative to the point of its being a musical 'tic'. There, I've said it...


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## Couchie

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I actually agree with Couchie. I think Mahler very, very over-rated: a musical windbag is the kindest way of putting this. I don't call it ídea-less, however, as it shows some thought - I just don't think it works at all and is too Wagnerian in its meanderings for my taste. Flaccid, hard to grasp the "subjects and ruminative to the point of its being a musical 'tic'. There, I've said it...


I'd compare Mahler's work to a nice bridge or perhaps a more impressive concrete overpass. Well constructed, the person behind it is clearly skilled and well educated, but it is not something you would praise for its unfathomable genius and admire as you would a truly inspired sculpture, such as something by Bernini. If you go to school and learn the theory, anybody can learn to design a bridge. If study music and conduct for a decade, anybody can write a Mahler symphony. There is an indefinable and transcendental spark of genius that defines the work of the truly great artists, and few of us, no matter what training we undergo, can ever hope to create something rivalling _The Rape of Proserpina_ or a Late Beethoven String Quartet. Sadly Mahler is a member of this spark-less crowd. On the other hand Wagner, while long-winded, reeks of genius.


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## TxllxT

Couchie said:


> I'd compare Mahler's work to a nice bridge or perhaps a more impressive concrete overpass. Well constructed, the person behind it is clearly skilled and well educated, but it is not something you would praise for its unfathomable genius and admire as you would a truly inspired sculpture, such as something by Bernini. If you go to school and learn the theory, anybody can learn to design a bridge. If study music and conduct for a decade, anybody can write a Mahler symphony. There is an indefinable and transcendental spark of genius that defines the work of the truly great artists, and few of us, no matter what training we undergo, can ever hope to create something rivalling _The Rape of Proserpina_ or a Late Beethoven String Quartet. Sadly Mahler is a member of this spark-less crowd. On the other hand Wagner, while long-winded, reeks of genius.


Sorry to say, you're windbagging all the way with these groundless statements: they don't spark a lighter with me. Gustav Mahler's music and Richard Wagner's music: I don't hear Mahler being Wagnerian as for example Dvorak & Smetana are. The only thing to prove that you're right: show us your Mahlerian symphony! It's an easy job, isn't it?


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## Aramis

Couchie said:


> I'd compare Mahler's work to a nice bridge or perhaps a more impressive concrete overpass. Well constructed, the person behind it is clearly skilled and well educated, but it is not something you would praise for its unfathomable genius and admire as you would a truly inspired sculpture, such as something by Bernini.


I've never seen lovers of sculpture standing before prosaic, unartistic bridge and praising it as something by Bernini, yet you can easily meet many classical music lovers praising Mahler's works as something by Wagner. That's the weakness of this comparison and the whole indefensible point you're making which should be reasonably reduced to "Mahler doesn't move me".


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## tdc

Couchie said:


> I'd compare Mahler's work to a nice bridge or perhaps a more impressive concrete overpass. Well constructed, the person behind it is clearly skilled and well educated, but it is not something you would praise for its unfathomable genius and admire as you would a truly inspired sculpture, such as something by Bernini. If you go to school and learn the theory, anybody can learn to design a bridge. If study music and conduct for a decade, anybody can write a Mahler symphony. There is an indefinable and transcendental spark of genius that defines the work of the truly great artists, and few of us, no matter what training we undergo, can ever hope to create something rivalling _The Rape of Proserpina_ or a Late Beethoven String Quartet. Sadly Mahler is a member of this spark-less crowd. On the other hand Wagner, while long-winded, reeks of genius.


I actually remember thinking similar things about Mahler when I first listened to his symphonies - 'good' I thought but too 'thought out' and uninspired and just methodical crap from 'the book'.

I do think this is completely incorrect though now. His music has something completely unique and _very_ inspired imo. 
I think its difficult with Mahler to pick up on his compositional voice, until one has familiarized themselves with his works fairly thoroughly. No composer is for everyone, but to say that his music is uninspired and run of the mill crap that anyone could achieve with some schooling is obviously incorrect.


----------



## Meaghan

Couchie said:


> I'd compare Mahler's work to a nice bridge or perhaps a more impressive concrete overpass. Well constructed, the person behind it is clearly skilled and well educated, but it is not something you would praise for its unfathomable genius and admire as you would a truly inspired sculpture, such as something by Bernini. If you go to school and learn the theory, anybody can learn to design a bridge. If study music and conduct for a decade, anybody can write a Mahler symphony. There is an indefinable and transcendental spark of genius that defines the work of the truly great artists, and few of us, no matter what training we undergo, can ever hope to create something rivalling _The Rape of Proserpina_ or a Late Beethoven String Quartet. Sadly Mahler is a member of this spark-less crowd. On the other hand Wagner, while long-winded, reeks of genius.


I, on the other hand, hear great depth, complexity, originality, and inspiration in Mahler's music, and he is the _last_ composer I'd think of when asked to name someone who dutifully read his orchestration book and put puzzle pieces together neatly but lacked "spark." Of course, you are perfectly entitled to dislike Mahler. This is all very subjective. But the subjectivity of the matter is precisely why it seems a bit silly to pass judgment on a composer in any kind of absolute terms. The indefinable nature of the "spark of genius" kind of precludes being able to say authoritatively "this guy has it, this guy doesn't." Mahler doesn't spark anything in _you._


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## PhillipPark

I really like Mahler's style of writing but dislike how long it takes for him to unify ideas. Because of this: I listen to a lot of his work in small doses (a movement at a time), unfortunately because of this, I can't receive any epiphanies.


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## Couchie

TxllxT said:


> Sorry to say, you're windbagging all the way with these groundless statements: they don't spark a lighter with me. Gustav Mahler's music and Richard Wagner's music: I don't hear Mahler being Wagnerian as for example Dvorak & Smetana are. The only thing to prove that you're right: show us your Mahlerian symphony! It's an easy job, isn't it?


It was CountenanceAnglaise who called Mahler Wagnerian, not I. Also I never said it was an "easy job" - I specifically called him "skilled and well educated", the product of years of schooling and experience as a conductor. This is roughly the same amount of training a very competent surgeon would undergo. Since I haven't taken musical education or spent a decade conducting, I'd be no more able to whip up a Mahler symphony than I'd be able to walk into an OR and perform brain surgery.


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## Couchie

Aramis said:


> I've never seen lovers of sculpture standing before prosaic, unartistic bridge and praising it as something by Bernini, yet you can easily meet many classical music lovers praising Mahler's works as something by Wagner. That's the weakness of this comparison and the whole indefensible point you're making which should be reasonably reduced to "Mahler doesn't move me".


Well you should hang out with more engineers. You're right that it can probably be boiled down to that - I was merely trying to give context to how I feel about it, I suppose that wasn't the best analogy.


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## Couchie

tdc said:


> I actually remember thinking similar things about Mahler when I first listened to his symphonies - 'good' I thought but too 'thought out' and uninspired and just methodical crap from 'the book'.
> 
> I do think this is completely incorrect though now. His music has something completely unique and _very_ inspired imo.
> I think its difficult with Mahler to pick up on his compositional voice, until one has familiarized themselves with his works fairly thoroughly. No composer is for everyone, but to say that his music is uninspired and run of the mill crap that anyone could achieve with some schooling is obviously incorrect.


Actually my opinion was popular opinion during his day and for many decades after his death. To say that anybody who doesn't hold him in the same esteem that you do is has not familiarized themselves properly or it's too "difficult" for them is obviously incorrect.

[Edit]: Just some quotes I found on Wikipedia:
Julius Harrison - "interesting at times, but laboriously put together" and lacking creative spark.
George Bernard Shaw - "expensively second-rate"
Dyneley Hussey - the "children's songs" were delightful, but the symphonies should be let go


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## Couchie

Meaghan said:


> I, on the other hand, hear great depth, complexity, originality, and inspiration in Mahler's music, and he is the _last_ composer I'd think of when asked to name someone who dutifully read his orchestration book and put puzzle pieces together neatly but lacked "spark." Of course, you are perfectly entitled to dislike Mahler. This is all very subjective. But the subjectivity of the matter is precisely why it seems a bit silly to pass judgment on a composer in any kind of absolute terms. The indefinable nature of the "spark of genius" kind of precludes being able to say authoritatively "this guy has it, this guy doesn't." Mahler doesn't spark anything in _you._


I don't deny this is totally my own opinion. I do think he's generally held here at TC in higher esteem than the greater classical community though. To see his second symphony 2nd on our recommend list ahead of Beethoven's 5th and 3rd and ahead of anything by Mozart is quite unusual.


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## tahnak

PhillipPark said:


> I really like Mahler's style of writing but dislike how long it takes for him to unify ideas. Because of this: I listen to a lot of his work in small doses (a movement at a time), unfortunately because of this, I can't receive any epiphanies.


Mahler's compositions can very well be heard movement wise broken through days on end. You do not have to receive any epiphany as the fruit of each movement's blessing is sufficient!


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## Art Rock

In a recent listeners survey of the Dutch classsical music station radio 4 about their favourite compositions, the top 100 showed quite some Mahler:

14 Symphony 2
38 Symphony 4
48 Symphony 3
53 Das Lied von der Erde
57 Kindertotenlieder
60 Symphony 1
72 Symphony 9

confirming that a large number of people, not just here on TC, really appreciate his work.


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## Couchie

Art Rock said:


> In a recent listeners survey of the Dutch classsical music station radio 4 about their favourite compositions, the top 100 showed quite some Mahler:
> 
> 14 Symphony 2
> 38 Symphony 4
> 48 Symphony 3
> 53 Das Lied von der Erde
> 57 Kindertotenlieder
> 60 Symphony 1
> 72 Symphony 9
> 
> confirming that a large number of people, not just here on TC, really appreciate his work.


What was the top 13?


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## Art Rock

13 Mozart, W.A. Die Zauberflöte
12 Händel Messiah
11 Brahms Ein deutsches Requiem
10 Beethoven Symfonie nr. 6 ´Pastorale´
9 Bach, J.S. Hohe Messe
8 Rachmaninov Pianoconcert nr. 2
7 Dvorák Symfonie nr. 9 
6 Beethoven Pianoconcert nr. 5 ´Emperor´
5 Pergolesi Stabat Mater
4 Bach, J.S. Brandenburgse Concerten
3 Fauré Requiem
2 Mozart, W.A. Requiem
1 Bach, J.S. Matthäus Passion


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## Guest

God knows I've tried and tried and tried with Mahler - and I'm over 60 and have loved serious music since I was 18, really serious music. But I'm sorry, Mahler just annoys me and so does Bruckner. I think the pomposity of it is the worst feature. The older I get the less tolerant of it I've become. No wonder Schoenberg developed Serial music - he must have heard what happened to tonal music when he listened to Mahler. Big and long-winded is not better, IMHO. I think Mahler would have written very good film music, however. In a poll recently conducted in the UK with some of Britain's famous music critics they cited Bruckner's 7th Symphony as one of the "most boring" pieces of classical music ever - so I'm not alone!!


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## Aramis

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> In a poll recently conducted in the UK with some of Britain's famous music critics they cited Bruckner's 7th Symphony as one of the "most boring" pieces of classical music ever - so I'm not alone!!


Was #1 Brahms op. 118?


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## Guest

All I know is that Brahms' chamber music was INCLUDED in the list, and I didn't agree with this. But Bruckner regularly appears on 'most boring' lists - I do know that. But it is interesting all the same. I crave structure, or at least a sense of this, in my serious music and this is what I find lacking in both Mahler and Bruckner. I'm not particularly ignorant and have Musicology qualifications from university!!

Also, I've looked back on what I wrote yesterday about Schoenberg and Twelve Tone music. I'm sure this pre-dated Mahler but the sentiment is there for me anyway!


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## Guest

All the same, Art Rock, he seems well down the list in the Top 100 doesn't he? Mostly beyond 40 and 50 - nothing much to brag about IMHO.

I would agree with St. Matthew Passion being 1st on the list, but I wouldn't place anything by Mozart - except perhaps Cosi - in the top 10!! Also Pergolesi doesn't belong in the top 10 either, IMHO. I think Beethoven seriously under-represented in that list, therefore it has little credibility for me. Faure "Requiem"? Please!! Pleasant, but hardly profound. I have an issue with 'lists' anyway - they need hardly be taken really seriously - being interesting and fun as a diversion for dilettantes. Ask any four TC contributors and you'll find lists equally problematic. But when it comes to professional critics I think we have to take a bit more notice.

Perhaps this has been done many times already (and I'm a newbie here) but what ARE peoples' top 10 on this forum.


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## Art Rock

Any list of course differs from anyone's personal choice. But scoring seven compositions (almost half of his total ouvre!) in a top 100 as determined by the listeners to a classical music station is still quite an achievement, and shows he has a broad support.


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## Guest

I guess we'll have to disagree about this. Compared to LvBeethoven you might find Mahler doesn't look too flash on one of these lists!! Mahler has "broad support" - so did Elvis Presley and Hitler, for that matter. Didn't make either of them real genius material.


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## Art Rock

If you re-read your post, do you still think this is an appropriate response?


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## tdc

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I guess we'll have to disagree about this. Compared to LvBeethoven you might find Mahler doesn't look too flash on one of these lists!! Mahler has "broad support" - so did Elvis Presley and Hitler, for that matter. Didn't make either of them real genius material.


First you basically say the list is rubbish, than you say it is an accurate depiction of Mahler's status which even though he has seven works in the top 100 isn't enough? Your argument is weak! Then the Elvis and Hitler analogy is just ridiculous! Lets face it - you don't get Mahler that is fine, no need to discount other individuals experiences with his music.


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## Guest

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I guess we'll have to disagree about this. Compared to LvBeethoven you might find Mahler doesn't look too flash on one of these lists!! * Mahler has "broad support" - so did Elvis Presley and Hitler, for that matter. Didn't make either of them real genius material*.



What on earth do Mahler, Elvis, and Hitler have to do with one another? We should discount Mahler's popularity because Hitler was popularly elected? By that logic, we must discredit anything that is popular. The popular will of the people in a democracy. The popularity of Beethoven, Bach, and Mozart. Why, by this logic, I think we should also discredit the merits of life itself, as I am sure that, were we to put it to a vote, most people would find being living a good thing. I am quite fond of it.

True, popularity does not necessarily equate with quality. But that one thing that is demonstrably bad was popular does not require that all things popular are bad.

A was popular and A was bad. Therefore, if B is popular, it must also be bad. That logic is flawed.

Popularity does not define genius. But it is not unthinkable that genius may gain popularity. Besides, we are not talking widespread popularity with Mahler - we are talking popularity within a very narrow and defined group, that being classical music enthusiasts. How many people who don't listen seriously to classical music could tell you who Mahler even was? So popularity of Elvis among the general public, or popularity of Hitler among the German people, is not quite the same as popularity of Mahler among classical music enthusiasts.


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## Schnowotski

Oh my goodness what an argument. Being compared to engineers and a supporter of Hitler - for liking Mahler... but I don't think those are insulting comparisons: I do admire well built structures, both in music and in architecture; it shows a certain level of intellectual coolness - yea, like a Fonzie - to be able to grasp that kind of things. And what comes to Hitler... well, he just doesn't get old. Mass psychosis can be very relieving. 

I think I'll pour my self a cup of tea and enjoy some concrete bridges of Hitler-Mahler. Cheers.


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## Couchie

What about this UK list, the LARGEST RADIO POLL EVER CONDUCTED ON THE SUBJECT (gasp), in which Mahler's highest ranked piece is 47th? http://halloffame2011.classicfm.co.uk/


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## Aramis

Couchie said:


> What about this UK list, the LARGEST RADIO POLL EVER CONDUCTED ON THE SUBJECT (gasp), in which Mahler's highest ranked piece is 47th? http://halloffame2011.classicfm.co.uk/


With Jenkins on 15th and with Lord of The Rings soundtrack much higher than Tchaikovsky 6th or Wagner's Tannhauser I don't think this list could be taken seriously.


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## Couchie

Aramis said:


> With Jenkins on 15th and with Lord of The Rings soundtrack much higher than Tchaikovsky 6th or Wagner's Tannhauser I don't think this list could be taken seriously.


ELITIST.
The British can never be taken seriously.


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## Schnowotski

Couchie said:


> What about this UK list, the LARGEST RADIO POLL EVER CONDUCTED ON THE SUBJECT (gasp), in which Mahler's highest ranked piece is 47th? http://halloffame2011.classicfm.co.uk/


Thank you for once and for all proving that the moon is made of blue cheese.


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## Couchie

Schnowotski said:


> Thank you for once and for all proving that the moon is made of blue cheese.


You don't have to go all the way to the moon to get cheese, just play the Resurrection Symphony.


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## Vazgen

> We should discount Mahler's popularity because Hitler was popularly elected?


Not for nothing, but Hitler was not elected. He was appointed Chancellor by Paul von Hindenburg.

However, it's true he was quite popular in Germany in those days.

-Vaz


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## Guest

Dr. Mike I wonder what "life" has to do with my 'argument'! I didn't mention anything about living and its value. Yes, my argument did seem inconsistent but lists are flawed and, therefore, questionable. Within that context, however, I commented about the overall merits of the results (or otherwise). I stand by what I said about popularity contests, as some respondents have pointed to Mahler's "support" in ranked lists. If you and others read what I said carefully, you'd see that I was speaking about the logic itself (or lack) of popularity and that this did not equate with genius. 

But I see that I've ignited some debate on this topic and am always keen to hear the opinions of others. One qualification: I wish never to hear again that tired old chestnut, "lots of people like this" as a reason why something is better than something else. Beethoven is my first composer, but I appreciate that many fine-music lovers just do not 'get' his late, great string quartets. Having just been through the Beethovenhaus in Bonn 4 days ago I feel a stronger affinity than ever with this wonderful, extraordinary genius and I don't care how many or how few "get it".

I'm sorry, I just thoroughly dislike Mahler and I see I don't need to provide a reason for this after all!!


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## Aramis

Mahler was driving a car and collapsed in the bus, now he must pay for repair and if he would went to vocational school he would repair it himself.


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## Guest

Oooo-kay...


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## Guest

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Dr. Mike I wonder what "life" has to do with my 'argument'! I didn't mention anything about living and its value. Yes, my argument did seem inconsistent but lists are flawed and, therefore, questionable. Within that context, however, I commented about the overall merits of the results (or otherwise). I stand by what I said about popularity contests, as some respondents have pointed to Mahler's "support" in ranked lists. If you and others read what I said carefully, you'd see that I was speaking about the logic itself (or lack) of popularity and that this did not equate with genius.
> 
> But I see that I've ignited some debate on this topic and am always keen to hear the opinions of others. One qualification: I wish never to hear again that tired old chestnut, "lots of people like this" as a reason why something is better than something else. Beethoven is my first composer, but I appreciate that many fine-music lovers just do not 'get' his late, great string quartets. Having just been through the Beethovenhaus in Bonn 4 days ago I feel a stronger affinity than ever with this wonderful, extraordinary genius and I don't care how many or how few "get it".
> 
> I'm sorry, I just thoroughly dislike Mahler and I see I don't need to provide a reason for this after all!!


With all due respect, lists are not flawed. They are what they are. The lists you refer to are lists where people expressed their favorite classical works. In that case, they reflected the relative popularity of various works of classical music/various composers. That your own personal tastes don't match perfectly doesn't matter one bit. They represent the consensus view. We conduct such polls to get the consensus view, recognizing that not all views are the same. If they were, we wouldn't need polls, we need only ask one person. They merely represent what a majority, or plurality, of people believe on any given subject. But they don't have anything directly to do with genius. Genius is something that may or may not be quantifiable. In some cases it is easy to quantify. A person who can conceive of something like the theory of relativity is, arguably, a genius. A person who can conceive of how we can replace a diseased, failing heart with a newer, more robust and healthy heart is, arguably, a genius. But some areas are more subjective - such as art. Hitler and Mahler are incomparable, because the way we would measure genius between the two is so completely different. Mahler's works require subjective judgment, whereas Hitler has tangible characteristics that can be assessed. Their accomplishments can't be compared in the same way, and so polls of their popularity are based on such different criteria that comparison of the two has no meaning. Einstein is arguably a very popular scientist, with most people knowing his famous formula, and Lady Gaga is a popular entertainer. There is no argument that Einstein's popularity is no doubt tied to his genius. As to Lady Gaga, the source of her popularity is less clear. Two popular individuals, but the reason for their popularity is so different that comparisons of the causes of their popularity have no meaning.

The point with Mahler is that you don't have to like his music. But amongst classical music enthusiasts, there obviously is something in his music that draws a large group of people in and causes them to enjoy his music. That popularity, in and of itself, does not constitute proof of genius, but neither does the fact that some genocidal maniac also had personal popularity negate the possibility that Mahler may have possessed genius. The two are so completely unrelated that comparisons are useless.

I would also say that we need to look at the reasons for popularity. When Hitler was popular, was it due to genius, or other factors? When Elvis was popular, was it due to genius, or were people considering other factors? What is being polled is essential. If Hitler's popularity derived from his political views, then that would have nothing to do with genius. Or maybe it had to do with his actual accomplishments. Either way, his popularity was the result of something completely different than what would cause popularity for Mahler.


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## Guest

Thank you for that interesting response, Dr. Mike. I take on board completely what you say about Mahler and the meaning he holds for many music-lovers. I mention "popularity" because that hoary old chestnut about somebody or other's "popularity" meant or means that he or she must be 'good' is something which has annoyed me for a long time. Quite often it is the things in life which don't find immediate resonance or recognition that are the things which have real value, from my experience. Take Beethoven's late string quartets as one example. One may even say Mahler has had to wait several decades, and more, to find himself appreciated. Many people find the music of Mantovani has appeal, but I would say this music has almost no lasting value at all. Also, people enjoy Andre Rieu's music - and his followers seem to grow exponentially. I would say I actively detest most of this musician's mediocre playing but I appreciate that many people love it and buy his CDs. But I do not consider either of the two previous examples as representative of either value, genius or even good taste. I sound very judgmental and, yes, I am. It's just that I love serious music so much that I dislike other forms of lesser music which seem to get more praise and 'airtime'. I'm very 'strict' about what I like and perhaps a lot less tolerant that I ought to be!!

You anatomize the understanding of 'popularity', but I don't think this does much for the original argument I made. Popularity is what it is, and it has been cited a one of the reasons for Mahler's 'success'. I think we must now agree to disagree on these point. Thanks for your contribution.


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## Guest

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Thank you for that interesting response, Dr. Mike. I take on board completely what you say about Mahler and the meaning he holds for many music-lovers. I mention "popularity" because that hoary old chestnut about somebody or other's "popularity" meant or means that he or she must be 'good' is something which has annoyed me for a long time. Quite often it is the things in life which don't find immediate resonance or recognition that are the things which have real value, from my experience. Take Beethoven's late string quartets as one example. One may even say Mahler has had to wait several decades, and more, to find himself appreciated. Many people find the music of Mantovani has appeal, but I would say this music has almost no lasting value at all. Also, people enjoy Andre Rieu's music - and his followers seem to grow exponentially. I would say I actively detest most of this musician's mediocre playing but I appreciate that many people love it and buy his CDs. But I do not consider either of the two previous examples as representative of either value, genius or even good taste. I sound very judgmental and, yes, I am. It's just that I love serious music so much that I dislike other forms of lesser music which seem to get more praise and 'airtime'. I'm very 'strict' about what I like and perhaps a lot less tolerant that I ought to be!!
> 
> You anatomize the understanding of 'popularity', but I don't think this does much for the original argument I made. Popularity is what it is, and it has been cited a one of the reasons for Mahler's 'success'. I think we must now agree to disagree on these point. Thanks for your contribution.


Agreed. I don't debate your not liking Mahler - as I said before, to each their own. With music, and specifically classical music, the works we tend to think of as "good" can arrive at that designation by different routes. Some are "good" because of how they are constructed - works that fundamentally changed how music was written, or represented the pinnacle of a style, or ushered in a new era. Someone who masters counterpoint could certainly be considered genius. Then there are those who create "good" music based on aesthetic value, or as you might say, popularity. Works which are pleasing enough to a broad enough audience for less tangible reasons. I am no musicologist - my area is science - so I can't analyze the technicalities of musical composition. I don't know, technically, what it took to write Mahler's works, or how revolutionary they were. My own experience and taste comes mostly from what sounds pleasing to me. But I can still appreciate that something like Bach's Art of Fugue, while not as aesthetically pleasing, necessarily, required more musical genius to construct than, say, Beethoven's Fur Elise bagatelle. But Fur Elise is immensely more popular (although I am not meaning to imply that Beethoven was not a genius based only on this work).

I think there is a place in the classical music world for both kinds of "good" music. Consider Bach in his time. Telemann, a contemporary, was immensely more popular in their day than Bach. And yet now Bach dwarfs him. At the time Telemann was more popular, but over time the genius of Bach has won out. And yet both can still be "good" music. But for some, their measure of good is skewed more towards the genius than the pleasant sounding, or vice versa.


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## GoneBaroque

It is pleasant to live on the mountaintop; but one must sometimes browse in the valleys.


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## Guest

Yes, undoubtedly genius of and for itself is not reason enough to like or enjoy something musical - that unfathomable thing known as subjectivity comes into play and we mostly make aesthetic choices with our listening, reading and viewing. Thank goodness for that, say I!! You make an interesting observation about Bach's "Art of Fugue" - a work of power and seemingly infinite musical ideas, but not one we would necessarily want to spend an afternoon with. But there ARE times when we do want this complexity and musical challenge, all dependent upon mood and context. I think this work showed us inside the head of Bach, perhaps more than any other, and his musical skill. As a university Professor of Music once commented in the faculty where I was a student, "Even when making a musical point Bach was never less than profoundly musical". So, yes, "profoundly musical" contains the core of the ideas I feel about musical genius. Quantify "profoundly" and you may be nearer to expressing the basics of genius. But this discussion is straying....good!!


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## Curiosity

Does anyone know where I might be able to find guides/breakdowns to any of Mahler's symphonies? I enjoy them for their atmosphere and bombast, but I often can't seem to wrap my head around the structure.


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## World Violist

Curiosity said:


> Does anyone know where I might be able to find guides/breakdowns to any of Mahler's symphonies? I enjoy them for their atmosphere and bombast, but I often can't seem to wrap my head around the structure.


Apart from David Hurwitz's book I can't think of any...and that book's pretty good anyway.


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## Curiosity

Hmmm, what I'm hoping for is something similar to this:

http://www.beethovenseroica.com/eroica2.html

In other words, a reasonably in-depth musical analysis of one (any) of his symphonic works. I've searched high and low for something similar for Tchaikovsky's symphonies to no avail!


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## Meaghan

World Violist said:


> Apart from David Hurwitz's book I can't think of any...and that book's pretty good anyway.


Yes, seconded.

The Mahler Symphonies: An Owner's Manual


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## Vazgen

Curiosity said:


> Does anyone know where I might be able to find guides/breakdowns to any of Mahler's symphonies? I enjoy them for their atmosphere and bombast, but I often can't seem to wrap my head around the structure.


I don't know how technical you want to get, but as a non-music-theorist I liked 
Gustav Mahler: An Introduction to His Music by Deryck Cooke.


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## violadude

Curiosity said:


> Does anyone know where I might be able to find guides/breakdowns to any of Mahler's symphonies? I enjoy them for their atmosphere and bombast, but I often can't seem to wrap my head around the structure.


http://www.amazon.com/Gustav-Mahler...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311587351&sr=1-1

Gustav Mahler: the symphonies is a really helpful book for what you're looking for, as it has overviews of the forms of every movement of every symphony.

For example:

Exposition:
-Measures 1-5 this happens and this happens
-Meaures 6-25 blah blah blah blah blah
.....
....
...
....

..

Development
Same thing

Recap.
Same idea

Coda


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## notreally

A great documentary on Mahler's third symphony:


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## kv466

notreally said:


> A great documentary on Mahler's third symphony:


Truly excellent...especially as I know little of him...thank you!


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## Chi_townPhilly

Curiosity said:


> Does anyone know where I might be able to find guides/breakdowns to any of Mahler's symphonies? I enjoy them for their atmosphere and bombast, but I often can't seem to wrap my head around the structure.


I own the Hurwitz book, too... but I actually found the Mahler section in the Michael Steinberg tome _The Symphony_ to be even more edifying.


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## Moscow-Mahler

I suppose that De La Grange books are very good, but they are very expensive. They have not only the bio, but also an appendix with the analisys of the symphonies.

I also found a booklet to *David Zinman's* recording of the First symphony to be excellent. If they publish these booklets as a single book it will be quite good. Some people may want to have the booklets without buying the recordings, I suppose.


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## Lunasong




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## Kasper

@Lunasong: Hilarious!!

Thanks for posting


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## Polyphemus

Usually avoid subjective arguments like the plague but this one, I feel, has to be commented upon. Like or loathe Mahler you will find yourself in exalted company. John Culshaw the pioneering Decca Engineer found that Mahler's music made him physically ill. There are all sorts of luminaries in both camps.
However the salient point is that Mahler is here to stay. My own music choices exclude some of the most celebrated composers, for instance I find Mendelsshon uninteresting, Wagner, tedious in the extreme . Before anyone goes into attack mode, I offer no offence with my opinion's. To simplify things I will try anything but when I find that it does not appeal to me I drop it. Shortsighted some may say but in ones life one has a certain amount of time to listen to music so why not play music that you enjoy and allow time to explore to broaden ones horizons.
I am an avid Mahler fan by the way, but there are certain pieces I tend to play less frequently than others, the eight Symphony comes to mind. But to each his own.


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## elgar's ghost

Polyphemus said:


> I am an avid Mahler fan by the way, but there are certain pieces I tend to play less frequently than others, the eight Symphony comes to mind. But to each his own.


I play the 8th as much as the other symphonies as I like to listen them as a cycle (not in one sitting, of course) but it's still the symphony I like the least. Although I'm in no position to question the great man's judgement I still feel that Mahler designating the 8th as a symphony at all makes the whole cycle somewhat disjointed - I think the 8th works better as a stand-alone work and that DLvdE would make a happier choice as a symphony instead.


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## Muddy

I haven't listened to Mahler in awhile, but this thread reminds me how much I love his music. Long ago I was talking to a friend about my love for Beethoven. He said I really needed to listen to Mahler's 2nd. He made me a tape and I played it in my car over a couple days. The finale. Oh my God! The build up. The emotion. I was overwhelmed! For me, that finale gave Beethoven's 9th a run for the money. Just Wow! Since then I have had many similar reactions to Mahler. The finale of the 8th. The beautiful slow movements of the 4th and the 6th. The glorious 9th. The beautiful slow meditation ending the 3rd (so similar to Beethoven's lento from his last string quartet) Mahler is all about emotion. Tonight, I am going home to listen to Mahler. It has been too long.


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## regressivetransphobe

Muddy said:


> tape


Oldschool.


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## NightHawk

Rachovsky said:


> What can I say, I'm not a fan of Gustav Mahler.
> Everything I have listened to sounds like a Requiem (maybe I haven't listened to enough.)
> Is anything by him quick and lively? Presto? Vivace? even Allegro? :S
> 
> Everything I hear by him is either Adagio, Largo, or Lento. Suggestions?
> The only thing I've heard that's interesting is the beginning of the horn solo in No. 9 and then it gets boring :S. Hope I don't get flamed now, lol.


Listen to the scherzos from the symphonies! Especially the one from Symphony #2. 

Here it is:


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## Sonata

I find something interesting with Mahler, something that I really haven't experienced with other composers. I enjoy what little of his work I've heard (so far just Symphony #2 and Das Lied von der Erde-his most popular pieces). But even the segments I don't find myself ENJOYING with my ears per se, I find myself intruiged mentally. It's a strange dissonance that I'm sure other listeners hear have experienced, but it is a first for me. Intruiged enough that I did buy his complete works (not a HUGE investment at just 32 dollars). But no matter how much or how little I will ultimately LIKE from him, I find myself more intersted in that journey. (where with other composers it's been more about the "destination"-ie how much I will actually like).

It's different in a very fun, stimulating way. So thanks Mahler!


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## violadude

Sonata said:


> I find something interesting with Mahler, something that I really haven't experienced with other composers. I enjoy what little of his work I've heard (so far just Symphony #2 and Das Lied von der Erde-his most popular pieces). But even the segments I don't find myself ENJOYING with my ears per se, I find myself intruiged mentally. It's a strange dissonance that I'm sure other listeners hear have experienced, but it is a first for me. Intruiged enough that I did buy his complete works (not a HUGE investment at just 32 dollars). But no matter how much or how little I will ultimately LIKE from him, I find myself more intersted in that journey. (where with other composers it's been more about the "destination"-ie how much I will actually like).
> 
> It's different in a very fun, stimulating way. So thanks Mahler!


You'll be coming up on the "Mahler addict" phase of classical music fans here shortly.


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## meaned

violadude said:


> You'll be coming up on the "Mahler addict" phase of classical music fans here shortly.


Ah! I can make it worse! try some of the Mahler here (it's all free because they are broadcast recordings):
http://statework.blogspot.com/search/label/Mahler

Guillermo


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## Hesoos

The best is Symphony number 3 !


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## Hesoos

Mahler is the best symphonic composer.
For me is good know what Mahler wants to explain in his symphonies, if you try to find out in books or internet then when you listen to his music that is much better.
In the next documentary you can enjoy the creation of the univers with Mahler! Colossal!!
mahler symphony 3 documentary:


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## Chrythes

I actually found the third to be the worst from those I listened to (2, 5, 7)!


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## Sonata

Muddy said:


> I haven't listened to Mahler in awhile, but this thread reminds me how much I love his music. Long ago I was talking to a friend about my love for Beethoven. He said I really needed to listen to Mahler's 2nd. He made me a tape and I played it in my car over a couple days. The finale. Oh my God! The build up. The emotion. I was overwhelmed! For me, that finale gave Beethoven's 9th a run for the money. Just Wow! Since then I have had many similar reactions to Mahler. The finale of the 8th. The beautiful slow movements of the 4th and the 6th. The glorious 9th. The beautiful slow meditation ending the 3rd (so similar to Beethoven's lento from his last string quartet) Mahler is all about emotion. Tonight, I am going home to listen to Mahler. It has been too long.


I had a pretty powerful reaction to his second symphony as well; this was the first piece I ever heard by him. I put it on my car stereo as I was getting my son packed up to go home from the beach. He wanted to play around in the front seat next to me (he's a toddler) so I stayed parked. I just sat in that car in the beach parking lot for a straight forty minutes before we finally left. so engrossed I was in the music.


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## aaroncopland

People that don't like Mahler are usually NOT musicians. Musicians love to play his music because it gives you goosebumps. One of the best interactions between composers I've heard of was Mahler and Sibelius's only conversation. Sibelius said that the Symphony should be about simple everyday life. Mahler said it should be about the World. That is why everyone of his symphonies has a story that is grand in someway. I love Sibelius and I love Mahler. I love that their music is about LIFE. Haydn and Mozart wrote for monarchs and their music was very formal. Their music is loved by people that like use classical music as background music. Mahler, Sibelius and most other composers of the Romantic to post Romantic era have to be listened to alone. You have to immerse yourself in the music to really get it, which musicians do more often then people that just substitute classical music for modern day pop music. In conclusion, Baroque and classical era music is for people that want to feel like they are well read, and the music of Mahler and his contemporaries are for those who really love music and want to be a true part of their life. Sorry to be brutal about it but, thats how I feel.


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## Sonata

Or..you can actually have different tastes for different moods. I love Mahler, but I also like Mozart. I am not a musician at all, I just happen to love listening to music.


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## Ripvanwinkle

Try as I might, I just can't seem to get into Gustav.


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## powerbooks

Ripvanwinkle said:


> Try as I might, I just can't seem to get into Gustav.


Not even Symphony 1 or 4? They are closer to a "regular" romantic symphony. I will suggest 1 first, to set up the comfort zone.


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## Ripvanwinkle

powerbooks said:


> Not even Symphony 1 or 4? They are closer to a "regular" romantic symphony. I will suggest 1 first, to set up the comfort zone.


I really tried hard and purchased the complete set of Mahler symphonies with Bernstein at the podium. I agree the first is the most palatable for me and I don't really remember the rest. I listened to the set three times and my appreciation didn't improve as time went by. I remember that I didn't like Stravinsky at first but he began to grow on me as I listened to his most successful/popular works. Unfortunately, that did not happen with Mahler.


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## tahnak

Chi_townPhilly said:


> The opening movement of the "Resurrection" symphony [Symphony #2] fairly leaps to mind unbidden...


Not only the opening movement. Here is one of the greatest readings of this symphony by Leonard Bernstein


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## Petwhac

tahnak said:


> Not only the opening movement. Here is one of the greatest readings of this symphony by Leonard Bernstein
> 
> I think Bernstein ruins the climax of the first movement (for me anyway) by slowing down too much.


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## Crudblud

Am I the only one who thinks the final movement of the 4th symphony is totally unnecessary?


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## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> Am I the only one who thinks the final movement of the 4th symphony is totally unnecessary?


It sort of sits outside the narrative, but I think emotionally it makes a nice ending. Very pastoral sort of thing. Not sure why there needs to be a singer in it though if that's what you mean I agree.


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## Sonata

Crudblood-I have not yet heard the fourth, but I feel the same way about symphony 3's first movement. it feels so disconnected from the rest of the wonderful symphony.I read about the symphony t give me some context but I still don't care for that movement. Anyone have some insight that might make me come around?


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## Crudblud

Ramako: I don't have a problem with it in itself, or the singing, I just don't think it fits there. The third movement feels very conclusive to me, even though it ends on such a frail chord. The fourth movement just kind of bounces in and it feels totally out of place, I find.

Sonata: Symphony No. 3 is my favourite of all his symphonies, though I've noticed that it may be one of his most difficult to pull off with any sense of balance. One of the most unusual performances of the symphony has to be Dmitri Mitropoulos' 1956 performance with the New York Philharmonic. He takes the mammoth first movement in just over *20 minutes* but it doesn't feel rushed at all. The box set that the recording was part of (Mitropoulos Conducts Mahler) is out of print, but worth a look if you're interested in hearing a different and not so polished take on Mahler.


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## brianwalker

Couchie said:


> I don't deny this is totally my own opinion. I do think* he's generally held here at TC in higher esteem than the greater classical community though.* To see his second symphony 2nd on our recommend list ahead of Beethoven's 5th and 3rd and ahead of anything by Mozart is quite unusual.


Not really.

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/musical/2009/06/08/090608crmu_music_ross

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/18/o...nted=all&gwh=D714330EC9347FA9E7418546850EAA4E


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## Meaghan

Crudblud said:


> Am I the only one who thinks the final movement of the 4th symphony is totally unnecessary?


You're not. I always found that movement funny. Like, laugh-out-loud funny. Which I don't think it's supposed to be. And it does kind of shatter the serenity one feels at the end of the sublime third movement, but I guess I often feel that way about the fast movements that follow the slow movements of multi-movement works.


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## Crudblud

I think the first three movements work together very well, almost like a living organism, and then the finale turns up and it's like one of those shirts that strange old women put on their grossly overweight flat-faced dogs.

I don't hate the music itself, and I can listen to it on its own, but in the context of the symphony it just doesn't belong.


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## Wandering

> I really tried hard and purchased the complete set of Mahler symphonies with Bernstein at the podium. I agree the first is the most palatable for me and I don't really remember the rest. I listened to the set three times and my appreciation didn't improve as time went by. I remember that I didn't like Stravinsky at first but he began to grow on me as I listened to his most successful/popular works. Unfortunately, that did not happen with Mahler.


Rip van Winkle

You might try listening to Mahler in smaller bites.


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## Wandering

You might try listening to Mahler in smaller bites.

The song 'Das Irdische Leben' from Des Knaben Wunderhorn gets much of the major/minor shifts found in his symphonies a smaller form, yet just as dramatic a punch.

Another idea is the memorization of the Rondo-Finale (final movement) of the 5th, trying to understand the melodic connections and cohesion building to and united with each of the climaxes and the general triumphant optimism of the whole movement; but unfortunately this particular movement is a oddity in Mahler movements, even though only the 6th 'tragic' ends in a minor key. This unique 'Rondo-Finale' of the 5th you might end up enjoying.


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## Lunasong

1974 Ken Russell film _Mahler_ recently posted on YouTube.

IMDb description:
Both trifles and structure are tossed out the door by director Ken Russell in this film. Here, historical content matters not so much as metaphors, feelings, emotions, and interpretations, and pay close attention, as every word and frame is intended to be important. The film takes place on a single train ride, in which the sickly composer Gustav Mahler and his wife, Alma, confront the reasons behind their faltered marriage and dying love. Each word seems to evoke memories of past, and so the audience witnesses events of Mahler's life that explain somewhat his present state. Included are his turbulent and dysfunctional family life as a child, his discovery of solace in the "natural" world, his brother's suicide, his [unwanted] conversion from Judiasm to Catholicism, his rocky marriage and the death of their young child. The movie weaves in and out of dreams, flashbacks, thoughts and reality as Russell poetically describes the man behind the music.

Watching now. Boy is this last statement true.


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## Vaneyes

Ripvanwinkle said:


> I really tried hard and purchased the complete set of Mahler symphonies with Bernstein at the podium. I agree the first is the most palatable for me and I don't really remember the rest. I listened to the set three times and my appreciation didn't improve as time went by. I remember that I didn't like Stravinsky at first but he began to grow on me as I listened to his most successful/popular works. Unfortunately, that did not happen with Mahler.


Don't give up, RVW. Give it a rest. Maybe occasionally listen to other treatments of some of the works, and then come back to Bernstein for a comparative listen. But, do this over time. Force-feeding is bad for any composer, regardless of complexity involved.

Bernstein is one of the best Mahler interpreters, so either his Sony or DG sets can provide one with a lifetime of enjoyment.

Take it easier. Let the music simmer.


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## Ukko

Crudblud said:


> I think the first three movements work together very well, almost like a living organism, and then the finale turns up and it's like one of those shirts that strange old women put on their grossly overweight flat-faced dogs.
> 
> I don't hate the music itself, and I can listen to it on its own, but in the context of the symphony it just doesn't belong.


There's a pretty good chance that you mind is made up on this, meaning that nothing I suggest will change it... But you're wrong. 

Just for the hell of it, you could listen to the old Vanguard recording by Abravanel/Utah Symphony. Maybe the great singing will have a salubrious effect.


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## Crudblud

Hilltroll72 said:


> There's a pretty good chance that you mind is made up on this, meaning that nothing I suggest will change it... But you're wrong.
> 
> Just for the hell of it, you could listen to the old Vanguard recording by Abravanel/Utah Symphony. Maybe the great singing will have a salubrious effect.


Added to the list, thanks!


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## Sonata

Ripvanwinkle said:


> I really tried hard and purchased the complete set of Mahler symphonies with Bernstein at the podium. I agree the first is the most palatable for me and I don't really remember the rest. I listened to the set three times and my appreciation didn't improve as time went by. I remember that I didn't like Stravinsky at first but he began to grow on me as I listened to his most successful/popular works. Unfortunately, that did not happen with Mahler.


I love Mahler, but I do understand how you feel. That's the way it is for me with Tristan Und Isolde. I have tried over again to appreciate that work. Because so many classical music lovers seem to adore this work. I feel I must be missing something. Even after warming to orchestral excerpts of his works, I cannot get into Tristan.


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## Lunasong

Love this photo. The post description:

One of the famous 'hammer-blows' in the last/fourth movement of Gustav Mahler's sixth symphony. 
This movement is characterized by drastic changes in mood and tempo, the sudden change of glorious soaring melody to deep pounded agony, and it is punctuated by three hammer blows.

Music Centre Frits Philips - Eindhoven, The Netherlands; 
Muziekcentrum Frits Philips - Eindhoven, Nederland 26 nov. 2006.
(Photo Philips Symphony Orchestra)

one of the comments:
_we all love the way the photo captured the strange contrast between the apparent violence of the hammer and the la-dee-da, another-day-at-the-symphony look of those in front of it._


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## nikola

I'm not much familiar with most of Mahler's work, but I must say that his 'Adagietto' from symphony no. 5 is probably to me most favorite piece of classical music or music EVER. It brings me to some so sad and lost state of mind and soul... I feel like it is trying to turn me into some bodiless state of existence in which I will float away and turn into nothing and everything at the same time. It's really very rare that I can feel like that and actualy, I can feel like that while only listening to this even there are some musical pieces that comes very close. That's something that words can't describe. Sadness of the movement is heavier than all universe. It's like all sadness ever at one place along with all beauty ever at one place. Some rare music pieces can make me cry, but this one puts me almost in trans. I would never like to listen to that movement at concert in live because I don't know how would I react. I would probably feel really stupid then. I even feel stupid when I write this. Actualy, I don't believe that 'Adagietto' is music at all. It's something.... it's more like psychological state than music. It's very hard for me even to listen to it, but still, I love listen to it. I'm happy to be alive if for nothing else, then only so I can not only hear, but experience THAT. It's like proof there is 'more' than THIS.


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## Wandering

nikola said:


> I'm not much familiar with most of Mahler's work, but I must say that his 'Adagietto' from symphony no. 5 is probably to me most favorite piece of classical music or music EVER. It brings me to some so sad and lost state of mind and soul... I feel like it is trying to turn me into some bodiless state of existence in which I will float away and turn into nothing and everything at the same time. It's really very rare that I can feel like that and actualy, I can feel like that while only listening to this even there are some musical pieces that comes very close. That's something that words can't describe. Sadness of the movement is heavier than all universe. It's like all sadness ever at one place along with all beauty ever at one place. Some rare music pieces can make me cry, but this one puts me almost in trans. I would never like to listen to that movement at concert in live because I don't know how would I react. I would probably feel really stupid then. I even feel stupid when I write this. Actualy, I don't believe that 'Adagietto' is music at all. It's something.... it's more like psychological state than music. It's very hard for me even to listen to it, but still, I love listen to it. I'm happy to be alive if for nothing else, then only so I can not only hear, but experience THAT. It's like proof there is 'more' than THIS.


WOW!

Music can do that, take you away, even just as you described it I'm sure. That slow movement is excellent indeed, hard to pay too many compliments. A major theme in the second half of the movement is really only concluded though in the Rondo-Finale, a triumphantly joyous conclusion. Other Mahler music akin to the Adagietto you might enjoy by Mahler are:

M3 Langsam 'final movement'
M6 Andante moderato '2nd sometimes 3rd movement'
M9 Adagio 'final movement'
M10 Adagio 'first movement'


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## nikola

Clovis said:


> WOW!
> 
> Music can do that, take you away, even just as you described it I'm sure. That slow movement is excellent indeed, hard to pay too many compliments. A major theme in the second half of the movement is really only concluded though in the Rondo-Finale, a triumphantly joyous conclusion. Other Mahler music akin to the Adagietto you might enjoy by Mahler are:
> 
> M3 Langsam 'final movement'
> M6 Andante moderato '2nd sometimes 3rd movement'
> M9 Adagio 'final movement'
> M10 Adagio 'first movement'


Thanks for that. I'll give it a listen. Mahler always seemed an interesting person to me, but too depressed.
I remember ofrom TV documentary that he composed many songs about dead children. So, I guess he was really too depressed. 
I will definately have to find all his symphonies and take a listen!


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## Ramako

Allow me to recommend:









I downloaded it for £30 off the itunes store. It's his complete works, and I think the recordings are quite respected as well.


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## Wandering

nikola said:


> Thanks for that. I'll give it a listen. Mahler always seemed an interesting person to me, but too depressed.
> I remember ofrom TV documentary that he composed many songs about dead children. So, I guess he was really too depressed.
> I will definately have to find all his symphonies and take a listen!


Actually the M6 Andante moderato is usually the 3rd movment, my mistake. Sometimes though, especially in recent recordings, it has been performed as the second movement according to Mahler's later change to the work.

If you want to try these movements out, you could give them listen on youtube?


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## Sonata

Ramako said:


> Allow me to recommend:
> 
> View attachment 7980
> 
> 
> I downloaded it for £30 off the itunes store. It's his complete works, and I think the recordings are quite respected as well.


YES. I bought the boxed set on Amazon when it was on sale for 31 dollars. I had only known his Das Liede and Symphony #2 but thought I'd give give it a shot because I loved both. He is now my favorite composer. It's a thrill to pull each new CD out of the sleeve to discover more wonderful music. And the artwork on the cover is pretty cool too!


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## Crudblud

Ramako said:


> Allow me to recommend:
> 
> View attachment 7980
> 
> 
> I downloaded it for £30 off the itunes store. It's his complete works, and I think the recordings are quite respected as well.


I would question Haitink's 3rd, but the rest is good/great stuff, especially Kubelík's classic 1st.


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## Sonata

Crudblood: who do you recommend for the third?


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## Wandering

Crudblud said:


> I would question Haitink's 3rd, but the rest is good/great stuff, especially Kubelík's classic 1st.


I thought this set has Rattle's 3rd?


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## Crudblud

Bernstein/NYPO is my personal favourite, I also quite like the fast version by Mitropoulos (I mentioned it previously in this thread, he takes the first movement in around 25 minutes without losing any of the impact) though that one's out of print if I recall correctly.


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## Crudblud

Clovis said:


> I thought this set has Rattle's 3rd?


Bah, you're right! I was confusing it with DG's Mahler Complete Edition.


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## Wandering

Crudblud said:


> Bah, you're right! I was confusing it with DG's Mahler Complete Edition.


Yep. Both sets are excellent. The dg set became affordable but then shot back up in price.


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## Crudblud

Clovis said:


> Yep. Both sets are excellent. The dg set became affordable but then shot back up in price.


It's a shame, the DG has some interesting choices including a surprisingly good 7th by Sinopoli, someone I normally wouldn't associate with Mahler at all.


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## Crudblud

Another interesting set is the New York Philharmonic's own The Mahler Broadcasts, which boldly omits Bernstein entirely in favour of Barbirolli, Mitropoulos, Tennstedt, Solti and even Boulez. However, it is the most expensive Mahler set I've ever come across, and may well be out of print by now.


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## samurai

nikola said:


> I'm not much familiar with most of Mahler's work, but I must say that his 'Adagietto' from symphony no. 5 is probably to me most favorite piece of classical music or music EVER. It brings me to some so sad and lost state of mind and soul... I feel like it is trying to turn me into some bodiless state of existence in which I will float away and turn into nothing and everything at the same time. It's really very rare that I can feel like that and actualy, I can feel like that while only listening to this even there are some musical pieces that comes very close. That's something that words can't describe. Sadness of the movement is heavier than all universe. It's like all sadness ever at one place along with all beauty ever at one place. Some rare music pieces can make me cry, but this one puts me almost in trans. I would never like to listen to that movement at concert in live because I don't know how would I react. I would probably feel really stupid then. I even feel stupid when I write this. Actualy, I don't believe that 'Adagietto' is music at all. It's something.... it's more like psychological state than music. It's very hard for me even to listen to it, but still, I love listen to it. I'm happy to be alive if for nothing else, then only so I can not only hear, but experience THAT. It's like proof there is 'more' than THIS.


Interesting, too, that the lovely movement of his* Fifth Symphony *referenced above by you is used in one of the most poignant and depressing scenes in *Death In Venice,* starringDirk Bogarde.


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## nikola

Clovis said:


> Actually the M6 Andante moderato is usually the 3rd movment, my mistake. Sometimes though, especially in recent recordings, it has been performed as the second movement according to Mahler's later change to the work.
> 
> If you want to try these movements out, you could give them listen on youtube?


Sure, youtube is my #1 source for music


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## nikola

samurai said:


> Interesting, too, that the lovely movement of his* Fifth Symphony *referenced above by you is used in one of the most poignant and depressing scenes in *Death In Venice,* starringDirk Bogarde.


Yes, I remember that movie from long time ago. I've heard it's #1 gay movie of all time... lol.. 
I remember back then that my dad actualy mentioned that music in movie is by Mahler. He was also big fan of that composition, but I started to listen to it closely in last few years and I guess that I actualy became obsessed with it when I was actualy able to completely feel it and understand it. Unfortunately, many people say for this and some similar compositions that they are 'boring'. Well, I guess from technical point of view it can be really boring if all THAT actualy leaves you completely cold and dead on emotional level what is actualy hard for me to understand, but I guess that some people can't feel any emotions while listening anything.
Many classical pieces are boring to me too, but I can't agree that this is one of those on any possible level.


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## Wandering

nikola said:


> Yes, I remember that movie from long time ago. I've heard it's #1 gay movie of all time... lol..
> I remember back then that my dad actualy mentioned that music in movie is by Mahler. He was also big fan of that composition, but I started to listen to it closely in last few years and I guess that I actualy became obsessed with it when I was actualy able to completely feel it and understand it. Unfortunately, many people say for this and some similar compositions that they are 'boring'. Well, I guess from technical point of view it can be really boring if all THAT actualy leaves you completely cold and dead on emotional level what is actualy hard for me to understand, but I guess that some people can't feel any emotions while listening anything.
> Many classical pieces are boring to me too, but I can't agree that this is one of those on any possible level.


I read the novella by Thomas Mann. It is actually sort of funny and shocking, also a wonderful descriptive passages throughout for those who dream of Europe. This seasoned and much revered author becomes so pathetically obsessively love sick. Mann might have been refering to Schopenhauer's controversial views in the story. Hesse picked up a similar spiel at the conclusion of 'The Glass Bead Game'.


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## Sonata

Crudblud said:


> Bernstein/NYPO is my personal favourite, I also quite like the fast version by Mitropoulos (I mentioned it previously in this thread, he takes the first movement in around 25 minutes without losing any of the impact) though that one's out of print if I recall correctly.


Ahh yes, there is a set of Mitropoulos on Amazon, though I haven't seen it singly. At this point I wouldn't shell out for his interpretations, but I did wish list it when you wrote about it earlier, maybe later down the line.


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## Vaneyes

Haitink's 1983 Christmas concert Mahler 3 (with ACO) is widely considered to be his finest performance of that work, and frequently included in "best" mentions. It was available in a box set (missing Symphonies 6 & 8), laser disc, and VHS. Google for current availability. YT link provided.






Other M3 recommends - Bernstein (Sony), Horenstein (Unicorn), Nagano (Teldec)


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## Ukko

Sonata said:


> Ahh yes, there is a set of Mitropoulos on Amazon, though I haven't seen it singly. At this point I wouldn't shell out for his interpretations, but I did wish list it when you wrote about it earlier, maybe later down the line.


One of the strongly contrasting takes/recording pairs of the 1st Symphony in days of yore was the Mitropoulos compared with the Kubelik. I could listen to the M one day and the K the next, with no diminution in interest.


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## Sonata

Fascinating. I'm not one who tends to go for multiple interpretations of works so far. But if there's any composer where I may give it a go, I think it's him.


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## Crudblud

Another couple of 1sts to try for the interested party: Scherchen 1955, in which he does not so much storm the heavens in the finale as nuke them, the pressing I have comes with my personal favourite reading of the Adagio from Symphony No. 10, it is the only one I've heard that makes it feel like a complete work rather than a glimpse of what could have been. Another is Kegel's 1979 recording with the Wiener Symphoniker, a much more earthy, folkish reading than many will be used to, and watch out for the unique take on the second movement.


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## Ukko

Sonata said:


> Fascinating. I'm not one who tends to go for multiple interpretations of works so far. But if there's any composer where I may give it a go, I think it's him.


That's a good notion, _@Sonata_. Apparently the symphonies are complicated enough to be read noticeably differently by different conductors - and I'm not even necessarily referring to the attention to detail by Boulez. The Mitropoulos/Kubelik dichotomy is only one of several interpretation tendencies that change the symphonies' emotional effect. Alain Lombard's take on number 5 changes the symphony's overall effect from a downer to an upper!


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## Wandering

Sonata said:


> Fascinating. I'm not one who tends to go for multiple interpretations of works so far. But if there's any composer where I may give it a go, I think it's him.


Good point. Getting a great number of recordings all of the same piece of music is very unnecessary. I'm sure big record companies are rich enough without my help. I still find myself overspending quite often though, Mahler more often than not. I love how buying a book on great and historic recordings or even simply reading reviews can help with the decision. There are so many classics recordings which are at bargain prices now, often you can buy the compact discs for cheaper than you can find the mp3 download, but often vice-virsa also. In 'new' category at Amazon you can get Haitink's new M3 recording with Chicago for under 2.5 dollars. Also Bach Mass in B minor with Leipzig Gewand on DVD commemorating his death for under 3 dollars, fyi 'there's a more expensive dvd version of the exact same performance'. Many good deals to be had.


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## Sonata

Oh yes, I loaded up on bargain MP3s on Amazon, as have bigshot and EricABQ. A lot of quality performances too, believe it or not. And Amazon marketplace has been my preferred destination for used CDs.

I placed a hold on Mahler's symphony 5 for both the Solti and Sinopli versions to compare to my own versions....actually the library has a small but decent selection of Mahler. Unfortunately, not some of the big ones that were mentioned here, but that's ok.


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## Wandering

Sonata said:


> Oh yes, I loaded up on bargain MP3s on Amazon, as have bigshot and EricABQ. A lot of quality performances too, believe it or not. And Amazon marketplace has been my preferred destination for used CDs.
> 
> I placed a hold on Mahler's symphony 5 for both the Solti and Sinopli versions to compare to my own versions....actually the library has a small but decent selection of Mahler. Unfortunately, not some of the big ones that were mentioned here, but that's ok.


They have the 99 cents complete Abravanel/Mahler symphony cycle also at Amazon! WOW! I guess music is one of the few affordable things left these days?


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## campy

Sonata said:


> I placed a hold on Mahler's symphony 5 for both the Solti and Sinopli versions to compare to my own versions....


I've had the Sinopoli since it first came out (to rave reviews in several magazines). I think it's excellent, but all I have to compare it to is Bernstein.


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## Meaghan

Clovis said:


> I read the novella by Thomas Mann. It is actually sort of funny and shocking, also a wonderful descriptive passages throughout for those who dream of Europe. This seasoned and much revered author becomes so pathetically obsessively love sick. Mann might have been refering to Schopenhauer's controversial views in the story. Hesse picked up a similar spiel at the conclusion of 'The Glass Bead Game'.


So, this has nothing to do with Mahler, but Benjamin Britten did a really fantastic and strange opera adaptation of _Death in Venice._ It uses gamelan music whenever Tadzio shows up. If you're interested in that story (and its interpretation by a great 20th century composer), you should listen to it!


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## Morgante

Thank you, my dear Gustav.


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## Vaneyes

Sonata said:


> Fascinating. I'm not one who tends to go for multiple interpretations of works so far. But if there's any composer where I may give it a go, I think it's him.


You can certainly appreciate both lyrical and abstract interps, but I'd be surprised if you didn't soon choose one over the other. Essentially, the choices are Beauty or ***-kicking.


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## Vaneyes

campy said:


> I've had the Sinopoli since it first came out (to rave reviews in several magazines). I think it's excellent, but all I have to compare it to is Bernstein.


Re comparisons, I'll venture to say there would be none with Bernstein's Sony set, and some with Bernstein's more reflective DG set.


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## Wandering

There is a local entertainment store here that sells a fair bit of classical, nothing like Borders or Barnes and Noble did back in the day, but still fair enough. I've often gone there about once a month to see what's new. Many of there used discs are either way too expensive or way too under priced, ofcourse I snatch up most of the underpriced ones available. This is where I found the M6 Szell live recording for 2 dollars. When I'd opened it I glady found no scratches on the disc as is usually the case. This is an amazing recording, the sound quality is very good for live 60's. If this live recording has any draw backs, it would be that the Scherzo has an abnormally slow tempi, but this is also the most unique movement and most interesting part of the recordng for the same reason. It is amazing how many earlier recordings of Mahler can stand equal as far as interpretition with the newer recordings, in other words, don't believe all the hype for over-priced newer entries.


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## DeepR

I don't understand how something as great as the finale of the second symphony exists. How can someone reach such a level of profound creativity... it's completely beyond me. It's not even the words or the "message" of the music I care about. I just listen to the music and get completely overwhelmed by the beauty of it.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

DeepR said:


> I don't understand how something as great as the finale of the second symphony exists. How can someone reach such a level of profound creativity... it's completely beyond me. It's not even the words or the "message" of the music I care about. I just listen to the music and get completely overwhelmed by the beauty of it.


The first movement of Symphony no. 7 is better. 

But no. 7 has also the stupidest classical guitar writing in history. It's effective in the orchestration and was certainly a marvellous idea along with mandolin, but it was just badly written. Could've done a much better job.


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## Wandering

^ the movement you mention COAG, it has this comic/melancholic indifference which is odd to say the least, also much characteristic of the composer, whimsically brushing off things in a way which only adds to the trudgings on; I can't get enough of it myself! But this isn't the sort of work I'd pull out if I were already in a mood.

The Barenboim M7 is my favorite recording of this work I know of atleast. The Bertini Cycle M7 is quite good, as is the whole cycle. I love the Chicago/Abbado also. Still need to here the Abbado/Berlin and see the Lucerne performances.

Dragging this work doesn't work very well with the opening and finally and scherzo for that matter, atleast imo; I can see how those who've heard it often on two dics would esp. see otherwise.


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## joen_cph

Concerning the old *Murray Hill Mahler Symphonies 1-9 12LP *budget set, it´s on sale here for $ 1,50, without booklet details.

Most of the records themselves don´t specify the conductor either.

I know that Boult conducts I, Schwartz V and Ludwig IX, and that Mitropoulos at least is somewhere there too (VI?);

unfortunately searching the web doesn´t seem to produce results as regards the conductors of the other individual symphonies; does anyone here know ? They will be supplementary recordings in my collection & I don´t care much about the poor recorded sound.


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## Vaneyes

Clovis said:


> ....The Bertini Cycle M7 is quite good....Still need to here the Abbado/Berlin....


Yes, yes, and add CSO/Solti (Decca Originals, rec. 1971).


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## Hesoos

Best of Mahler: First movement from the 3th simphony. THE CREATION OF THE WORLD


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## Xaltotun

Hesoos said:


> Best of Mahler: First movement from the 3th simphony. THE CREATION OF THE WORLD


It is indeed one of the very best! And the way you describe it is spot on. A relentless force, a need to EXIST, the joy and horror of pure biological being... a BODY is created, and there is joy in the body, just in the fact that it exists. You have to surrender to existing, existing is FORCED on you. And from then on, the possibilities are endless... to good or to evil.


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## Vaneyes

Re M3, Cole Porter followed up with Night and Day (1932).


----------



## Adagietto

Any opinions on the recording of Mahler's 9th with Bernstein/Boston Symphony (July 29th 1979 Tanglewood)? Two of my three favorite recordings of Mahler's 9th are by Bernstein, and some say the Boston performance was even more intense than those. The CD is unavailable on Amazon unfortunately.


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## Wandering

Adagietto said:


> Any opinions on the recording of Mahler's 9th with Bernstein/Boston Symphony (July 29th 1979 Tanglewood)? Two of my three favorite recordings of Mahler's 9th are by Bernstein, and some say the Boston performance was even more intense than those. The CD is unavailable on Amazon unfortunately.


You'll need someone elses input on this. Had a brief chance to here it but past, regret it much now; It is just as you say, people go on and on, regrets.

Just listen to his M9/Bernstein RCO DG for the first time, the 2 mov. atleast. I noticed his huge slowing of tempi, before the mid-climatic bravura. Never heard this contrasting tempi so strikingly on other favs, such as the one disc Berlin/Live Abbado. Makes _more clear_ Mahler's implications. Probably still prefer Abbado's most of the time.


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## Vaneyes

Adagietto said:


> Any opinions on the recording of Mahler's 9th with Bernstein/Boston Symphony (July 29th 1979 Tanglewood)? Two of my three favorite recordings of Mahler's 9th are by Bernstein, and some say the Boston performance was even more intense than those. The CD is unavailable on Amazon unfortunately.


I saw it available on Amazon today for $58.98 I haven't heard it.

View attachment 9645


But from what I've read, the July 29, 1979 Memories "pirate" of a live Boston SO Tanglewood performance has a similar interpretation to the Oct. 4, 1979 live DG with Berlin PO, but with worse sound--audience noise, etc. 
IMO, Lenny's supreme Mahler 9 is the 1965 Sony "studio", done in one take with the NYPO. It contains the urgency LB lacked in some of his later Mahler recs.

View attachment 9644


----------



## Wandering

^ In regards










I'm watching this one closely, price wise, see if it goes even lower, _even more reason for self congrads. _. :


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## Kopachris

Dear Gustav,

Your music is spot on and perfect in every way. The world will miss you when you are gone.

Sincerely,
Arnold


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## Sonata

Very well put. I feel much the same way! :cheers:


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## Vaneyes

Mahler 3 review for Fink/Cleveland O./Welser-Most.

http://southfloridaclassicalreview....erformance-of-mahlers-mammoth-third-symphony/


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## Huilunsoittaja

Kopachris said:


> Dear Gustav,
> 
> Your music is spot on and perfect in every way. The world will miss you when you are gone.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Arnold


No mean to offend your love, but...

My version:

Dear Gustav,

Your *German-styled *music is spot on and perfect in every *German-styled *way, *except for the full-section glissandos*. The *German-glissando-loving* world will miss you when you are gone.

But thank you for taking a hint or two from the Russians and using a gong now and then.

Sincerely,

:tiphat:


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## Wandering

^*OMG!* Someone being a [email protected]$$. On the internet of all places, on a forum even; _Who'd of thought!? _


----------



## shebadfatty

as a trumpet player, Mahler 5 is definitely my favorite to play, as well as listen to. but Mahler 1 is very high up there. I had the chance to play the finale of Mahler 1 this summer in the Interlochen Philharmonic under the direction of Jung-Ho Pak, and it was a fantastic experience!


----------



## clavichorder

Mahler is so rich and unique. Finally opening up to him little by little, I haven't had such a fresh new musical experience in a long time.

Re Huilun: He is very German overall, Beethoven-like in his "unbroken song" quality and a heavy handed boldness, but is very simple and clear in his approach sometimes in a more cosmopolitan or even slavic sense, unlike Strauss who usually very complex orchestrally and contrapuntally.

Lol @"But thank you for taking a hint or two from the Russians and using a gong now and then." Good stuff.

I can't decide who is fascinating me more at this time, Mahler or R. Strauss. They are so different and yet they fulfill in me in different ways a need for a certain type of excessive wildness.


----------



## violadude

clavichorder said:


> Mahler is so rich and unique. Finally opening up to him little by little, I haven't had such a fresh new musical experience in a long time.
> 
> Re Huilun: He is very German overall, Beethoven-like in his "unbroken song" quality and a heavy handed boldness, but is very simple and clear in his approach sometimes in a more cosmopolitan or even slavic sense, unlike Strauss who usually very complex orchestrally and contrapuntally.
> 
> Lol @"But thank you for taking a hint or two from the Russians and using a gong now and then." Good stuff.
> 
> I can't decide who is fascinating me more at this time, Mahler or R. Strauss. They are so different and yet they fulfill in me in different ways a need for a certain type of excessive wildness.


Glad to see you becoming a convert.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I think Mahler is very _Austrian._

Been listening to at least the first mvt of no. 7 every day. It is probably the most incredible opening movement in any symphony ever written. I was score reading it this afternoon and....wow. Just wow. Everything about it is wow.


----------



## violadude

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I think Mahler is very _Austrian._
> 
> Been listening to at least the first mvt of no. 7 every day. It is probably the most incredible opening movement in any symphony ever written. I was score reading it this afternoon and....wow. Just wow. Everything about it is wow.


I love that movement too. It's sad no one else likes this symphony


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## Wandering

I think Mahler is very _Mahler_.


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## Guest

violadude said:


> I love that movement too. It's sad no one else likes this symphony


I don't know if I would say no one likes it. It simply suffers from having some very stiff competition. I have my favorite symphonies for Mahler, but from time to time I listen to those that aren't normally in my rotation and think, "wow, I should listen to that one more often." Like I said, I don't think it is an issue of people not liking this symphony, so much as they don't like it as much as some of the others.


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## Guest

Is it just me, or is there a Mahler revival going on? There seems to be a lot of postings recently - relatively speaking, of course. Love for Mahler seems to come in waves. He is not one that seems to be easily loved, but those who come to enjoy him are certainly devoted.


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## Vaneyes

M1 review for LSO/Bychkov (11.25.12).

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_concert_review.php?id=10646


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

violadude said:


> I love that movement too. It's sad no one else likes this symphony


They don't?! It was the first Mahler symphony I ever heard and that horn melody that comes in when the music goes alla breve sends shivers down my spine every time.


----------



## tdc

Actually according to this TC poll:

http://www.talkclassical.com/21776-favorite-mahler-symphony-poll.html

Mahler's 7th Symphony is pretty popular here ranking just behind the 9th and DLVDE


----------



## Vaneyes

tdc said:


> Actually according to this TC poll:
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/21776-favorite-mahler-symphony-poll.html
> 
> Mahler's 7th Symphony is pretty popular here ranking just behind the 9th and DLVDE


Yes, but we've already concluded that that poll is mistaken.


----------



## Wandering

Getting into which symphony is better won't go far. Mahler's 7th, in many ways, was a witty 'couldn't care less' retort to critics; an unusual layout and intrumentation provoked by critical reaction to the 6th, the repetitive teasing stifled conclusions to the finale.

Fav still being Barenboim's on disc.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Clovis said:


> Getting into which symphony is better won't go far. Mahler's 7th, in many ways, was a witty 'couldn't care less' retort to critics; an unusual layout and intrumentation provoked by critical reaction to the 6th, the repetitive teasing stifled conclusions to the finale.
> 
> Fav still being Barenboim's on disc.


That's exactly why it's so good.


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## Mahlerian

I've read that the first movement of Mahler's 7th is some of the most harmonically advanced music he wrote. It certainly sounds closer to Schoenberg (who loved this symphony and may have quoted from it in his Chamber Symphony in E major) than even the wilder parts of the 9th. I think there may be some quartal harmonies in it, because of the themes in stacked fourths. This, and the density of the finale, may account for the symphony's relative lack of popularity. The first movement is one of my favorite Mahler openings though.


----------



## Wandering

^ In many ways, there are two opening themes spread out a bit in the first movement, affective juxtaposed.


----------



## Vaneyes

MAHLER EVENT NOTICE for Wednesday, January 23, 2013.

Gustav Mahler Society of New York City will host conductor Mark Wigglesworth in a program of informal
conversation, questions and answers. Conversation with Maestro Wigglesworth will begin at 8:00 PM, at the 3 West Club, 3 West 51st Street in Manhattan. Admission is free for members
and their guests; for non-members, admission is $5.00 payable at the door
(which may be applied toward a new membership in the Society). As the 3
West Club appreciates knowing the approximate number of attendees, if you
will attend PLEASE RSVP prior to the program, by phone message at 212-531-3955.

http://www.gmsnyc.org/index.php


----------



## Adagietto

As one who collects Mahler Ninths, I'd be interested to know if anyone have an opinion on the upcoming Dudamel/LA release, or just Dudamel's conducting in general?


----------



## Vaneyes

Adagietto said:


> As one who collects Mahler Ninths, I'd be interested to know if anyone have an opinion on the upcoming Dudamel/LA release, or just Dudamel's conducting in general?


I don't like it. I am not a fan of Dudamel.


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## Itullian

i like 1 and 5


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## samurai

Amongst my current Mahler favorites are: 1, 4, 6, 7 and 9. Love the pizzicato of the strings in the 4th's second movement.


----------



## TudorMihai

There's one thing that puzzles me about two photos of Mahler:

1907








1909








These are two classic Mahler photos but when you look at the one from 1907, he looks much older than the one from 1909...


----------



## Mahlerian

TudorMihai said:


> There's one thing that puzzles me about two photos of Mahler:
> 
> 1907
> View attachment 13707
> 
> 
> 1909
> View attachment 13708
> 
> 
> These are two classic Mahler photos but when you look at the one from 1907, he looks much older than the one from 1909...


In 1907, he had recently suffered through a long fight with the administration of the Vienna State Opera, which led to his resignation, and he had just lost a daughter to illness. The combined weight of all of that is bound to make someone look older than they actually are.

In 1909, on the other hand, he was enjoying modest success in New York, and he had been composing Das Lied von der Erde, his first piece in a new style.

Other than that, I'd imagine that the lighting has something to do with it. The shadows in the earlier one accentuate his age, and the well-lit second hides it somewhat.


----------



## TudorMihai

Mahlerian said:


> In 1907, he had recently suffered through a long fight with the administration of the Vienna State Opera, which led to his resignation, and he had just lost a daughter to illness.


Agreed to that. Not to mention the discovery of his heart problem. It's true, 1907 was the worst year of Mahler's life.


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## Bradius

I heard Dudamel conduct Mahler 9 yesterday. It was nice.


----------



## Vaneyes

Gustav received benefit from Grecian Formula and a moisturizer in 1909. Professional stress was less, but Alma stress was more.


----------



## vertigo

Did anyone else attend the Resurrection with Mehta in Munich last week?
I have a question about the performance...


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## OboeKnight

Just getting in to Mahler. I've listened to symphonies 1, 3, and 5.


----------



## Ukko

OboeKnight said:


> Just getting in to Mahler. I've listened to symphonies 1, 3, and 5.


 You haven't gotten to the angst yet. You can still do 9 without getting in over your pacs.


----------



## TudorMihai

Regarding Mahler's 10th Symphony, what are the differences between the Cooke and Wheeler versions? I've listened to both carefully and I cannot tell the difference.


----------



## Mahlerian

TudorMihai said:


> Regarding Mahler's 10th Symphony, what are the differences between the Cooke and Wheeler versions? I've listened to both carefully and I cannot tell the difference.


The orchestration is different. I'd have to do a detailed comparison, but the versions usually differ most sharply in the two scherzo movements, II and IV.


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## Amateur

Would love to have heard Mahler conduct -- his own works and others -- since recordings by his acolytes (Walter, Klemperer, Fried and others) differ so greatly. 

Mahler the composer interests me less. There are indeed beautiful things. The andante of the 6th symphony is gorgeous, especially as conducted by Karajan. Suppose it shows I'm not really "into" Mahler's sensibility that I prefer more straightforward performances to those of Bernstein -- or is that not true? Mahlerites, help me out here.


----------



## DeepR

I still recall vividly the performance of Mahler 2 I went to two months ago. I have nothing but a pair of good musical ears (I like to think) and to my uninformed opinion it was a world class performance. Anna Larsson was one of the soloists and was amazing too.
For some reason, I haven't listened to the piece ever since.

edit: I have to add it was only the second classical concert I've ever been to


----------



## Mahlerian

Amateur said:


> Mahler the composer interests me less. There are indeed beautiful things. The andante of the 6th symphony is gorgeous, especially as conducted by Karajan. Suppose it shows I'm not really "into" Mahler's sensibility that I prefer more straightforward performances to those of Bernstein -- or is that not true? Mahlerites, help me out here.


Not really, I'm personally of a divided opinion about Bernstein's interpretations. They varied quite heavily in quality, from performance to performance. I like Abbado's cycle on DG and many of Tennstedt's recordings on EMI and the LPO's own label.

Incidentally, Mahler's 6th is my personal favorite, though I prefer others to Karajan here.


----------



## Weston

Hey folks! I finally have a free non-exhausted moment to sit down and become familiar with Mahler and study writings or documentaries about him, then listen to a symphony. I thought beginning with Symphony No. 1 would be logical. I could have sworn I saw a Michael Tilson Thomas Keeping Score documentary about Mahler's 1st, but now there is no record of it anywhere. Even Wikipedia does not list it among the episodes. Did I just imagine this? 

Also Mahlerian's blog seems to begin with Symphony No. 2 after some introductory material. Should I forget No. 1 for the time being and go directly into 2? I don't think just listening will do the trick for me. I only have a small window of opportunity tonight too, so it's either going to be Mahler or Dr. Who. I've got to choose soon.


----------



## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> Hey folks! I finally have a free non-exhausted moment to sit down and become familiar with Mahler and study writings or documentaries about him, then listen to a symphony. I thought beginning with Symphony No. 1 would be logical. I could have sworn I saw a Michael Tilson Thomas Keeping Score documentary about Mahler's 1st, but now there is no record of it anywhere. Even Wikipedia does not list it among the episodes. Did I just imagine this?


It exists. I've seen it. I don't know if it's available on DVD, but if you can find it, it's worth checking out.



Weston said:


> Also Mahlerian's blog seems to begin with Symphony No. 2 after some introductory material. Should I forget No. 1 for the time being and go directly into 2? I don't think just listening will do the trick for me. I only have a small window of opportunity tonight too, so it's either going to be Mahler or Dr. Who. I've got to choose soon.


I chose No. 2 because it's the most popular. I'll let others give their own perspective. I'm "too close to the subject", so to speak.

EDIT: One that people who normally don't go for Mahler seem to enjoy is the 4th, which is shorter than the others by a bit, and scored for a slightly smaller orchestra. It's Mahlerian through and through, though.


----------



## Weston

Mahlerian said:


> It exists. I've seen it. I don't know if it's available on DVD, but if you can find it, it's worth checking out.


Finally found it on the PBS web site! So Symphony No. 1 it is. Thanks for letting me know it exists. I'll explore No. 2 maybe this weekend.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1883099037


----------



## Amateur

Mahlerian, did you have a chance to hear Tennsdedt in person? He was remarkable, and remarkably nice. 
A friend in New York would invite Tennsdedt and his wife to his apartment to chat and listen to recordings. Although our group consisted of highly opinionated amateurs, Tennsdedt (and his wife, who had been a singer) could not have been more patient -- perhaps because their limited English did not permit much malice! 
Hope more live recordings are released.


----------



## Mahlerian

Amateur said:


> Mahlerian, did you have a chance to hear Tennsdedt in person? He was remarkable, and remarkably nice.
> A friend in New York would invite Tennsdedt and his wife to his apartment to chat and listen to recordings. Although our group consisted of highly opinionated amateurs, Tennsdedt (and his wife, who had been a singer) could not have been more patient -- perhaps because their limited English did not permit much malice!
> Hope more live recordings are released.


Unfortunately no. He comes across as very personable and unpretentious from what I've heard, though. He suffered a good deal in his earlier days, when he lived in East Germany, and he said that one could not truly understand Mahler unless one has suffered.

His live 8th with the London Philharmonic on DVD from EMI is a treasure, despite a few problems I have with the soloists. He passed away all too early.


----------



## Bone

Need a good recommendation for #5. I have Bernstein/NYPO (digital, not earlier analogue) and Mehta NYPO. Not a big fan of either and I'm performing it soon and would like to hear it played well. Strangely, it's always been among my least favorite Mahler symphonies; guess I just haven't heard the right version.


----------



## Mahlerian

Bone said:


> Need a good recommendation for #5. I have Bernstein/NYPO (digital, not earlier analogue) and Mehta NYPO. Not a big fan of either and I'm performing it soon and would like to hear it played well. Strangely, it's always been among my least favorite Mahler symphonies; guess I just haven't heard the right version.


I'm fond of the live Solti/Chicago version on Decca. He doesn't slow down the Adagietto too much, and gives a riveting finale. (Edit: I feel I should mention that there's a noticeable horn flub in the first movement, but since it's a live version, I can excuse that.)

http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-5-Gustav/dp/B0000041ZH/

Bernstein/Vienna Phil is also a good choice, but very slow compared to most.


----------



## ptr

I have a thing for Barbirolli/New Philharmonia (EMI) he has a slightly quirky but perfect overview of Mahlers 5 (all MAhler Symphonies he recorded!), if You want it dirt cheap but amazingly good, try Rudolf Barshai on Brilliant, he is very neat! (for a good second opinion on recordings of Mahler's Symphonies, check Tony Duggon's reviews on *MusicWeb*)

/ptr


----------



## Sudonim

Bone said:


> Need a good recommendation for #5. I have Bernstein/NYPO (digital, not earlier analogue) and Mehta NYPO. Not a big fan of either and I'm performing it soon and would like to hear it played well. Strangely, it's always been among my least favorite Mahler symphonies; guess I just haven't heard the right version.


With my opinion and five dollars you might be able to get a cup of coffee, but anyway I'll second ptr's endorsement of the Barshai Fifth. Hard to believe it's a student orchestra!

(But then, I've only heard it and Bernstein's. I have Barbirolli's and Abbado's too, but they're in my yet-to-be-listened-to pile.)


----------



## Bone

Have hunted around for Barshai but not gotten a copy yet. Listened to Boulez VPO tonite. Strange - never heard someone make an academic exercise out of Mahler (kind of think the same of his Debussy, Stravinsky, and Bartok, too). Heard some of the Solti / CSO earlier this week and I'll try to make an effort to listen to it next week since I won't be leaving town too much during Masters week.


----------



## Mahlerian

Bone said:


> Have hunted around for Barshai but not gotten a copy yet. Listened to Boulez VPO tonite. Strange - never heard someone make an academic exercise out of Mahler (kind of think the same of his Debussy, Stravinsky, and Bartok, too). Heard some of the Solti / CSO earlier this week and I'll try to make an effort to listen to it next week since I won't be leaving town too much during Masters week.


I've heard people say this about Boulez, but I don't hear it. His beat is quite flexible in the Mahler symphonies I've heard, and although the texture is lucid, it has the desired full body. He follows all of Mahler's tempo and expression indications, although he doesn't exaggerate them.


----------



## Bone

Mahlerian said:


> I've heard people say this about Boulez, but I don't hear it. His beat is quite flexible in the Mahler symphonies I've heard, and although the texture is lucid, it has the desired full body. He follows all of Mahler's tempo and expression indications, although he doesn't exaggerate them.


No arguments about interpretation: the French Correction is nothing if not faithful to the score. Somehow, though, he misses the "heart" of the music and it seems that the musicians play likewise: safe and cautious as if afraid to infect the music with any personality. Oddly, Boulez sounds nothing like this in contemporary music - probably an indication of his true sentiments. But I'll freely admit that I am firmly in Bernstein's corner when it comes to Mahler - just not in 5.


----------



## Mahlerian

Bone said:


> No arguments about interpretation: the French Correction is nothing if not faithful to the score. Somehow, though, he misses the "heart" of the music and it seems that the musicians play likewise: safe and cautious as if afraid to infect the music with any personality. Oddly, Boulez sounds nothing like this in contemporary music - probably an indication of his true sentiments. But I'll freely admit that I am firmly in Bernstein's corner when it comes to Mahler - just not in 5.


This is untrue. Boulez does not hew strictly to the score at all times. As I said, his beat is flexible, and his conducting of Mahler 5 has plenty of nuances. He accentuates certain phrases over others, lets parts come the fore, etc. Nothing at all like an academic exercise. I wonder if you would say the same thing if you did not know that you were hearing Boulez, with his reputation, and were just given a blind test.

Mahler himself abhorred exaggeration of his performance directions, and would often revise them, because when he wrote ritardando, the players would slow to a crawl, and when he wrote accelerando, they would start racing. A subtle interpretation is necessary to get to the heart of this music.


----------



## Vaneyes

Bone said:


> Need a good recommendation for #5. I have Bernstein/NYPO (digital, not earlier analogue) and Mehta NYPO. Not a big fan of either and I'm performing it soon and would like to hear it played well. Strangely, it's always been among my least favorite Mahler symphonies; guess I just haven't heard the right version.


VPO/Bernstein (DG), and RPO/Shipway (RPO). Both are sizzling performances, which elevate the work IMO. :tiphat:


----------



## Vaneyes

Amateur said:


> Would love to have heard Mahler conduct -- his own works and others -- since recordings by his acolytes (Walter, Klemperer, Fried and others) differ so greatly.
> 
> Mahler the composer interests me less. There are indeed beautiful things. The andante of the 6th symphony is gorgeous, especially as conducted by Karajan. Suppose it shows I'm not really "into" Mahler's sensibility that I prefer more straightforward performances to those of Bernstein -- or is that not true? Mahlerites, help me out here.


By all accounts through a hundred years and more, Mahler was a respected conductor. A taskmaster with broad repertoire.

But...as good as his conducting may have been, it was primarily the means that allowed raison d'etre, composing.


----------



## Bone

Mahlerian said:


> This is untrue. Boulez does not hew strictly to the score at all times. As I said, his beat is flexible, and his conducting of Mahler 5 has plenty of nuances. He accentuates certain phrases over others, lets parts come the fore, etc. Nothing at all like an academic exercise. I wonder if you would say the same thing if you did not know that you were hearing Boulez, with his reputation, and were just given a blind test.
> 
> Mahler himself abhorred exaggeration of his performance directions, and would often revise them, because when he wrote ritardando, the players would slow to a crawl, and when he wrote accelerando, they would start racing. A subtle interpretation is necessary to get to the heart of this music.


We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one - I'll certainly give the Boulez a more thorough going-over this week, but I just don't feel him in Mahler.

An update: the Barshai and Barbirolli arrived this week. Listened offhand to Barshai and enjoyed the small details he brought out as well as the interesting balances he achieved - a welcome tonic for the Boulez I still had in my ears (haha, Mahlerian)...

Barbirolli, on the other hand, is WAY more idiosyncratic than I expected. Guess I don't know my Sir John very well, but he takes many liberties and I'm not sure I really liked the 2nd mvmt as slow he did. The "adagietto," however, is now right at the top of my list of favorite single movements of music I've ever heard (HvK Bruckner 8 adagio is the other). Unbelievable control of phrasing and beauty of line. Overall, though, the performance strikes me as slow and odd (besides mvmt. IV). I'll keep working on it - I don't play Mahler 5 until the end of the month (my birthday weekend - how's that for a treat along with Saint-Saens 3???).


----------



## Amateur

There's a very interesting live version by Scherchen, truncated but well worth hearing. A more conventional reading by Barbirolli is highly regarded (and I don't mean that as faint praise). Where and how are you performing?


----------



## Bone

Amateur said:


> There's a very interesting live version by Scherchen, truncated but well worth hearing. A more conventional reading by Barbirolli is highly regarded (and I don't mean that as faint praise). Where and how are you performing?


Performing in Georgia. A friend always has money in his college program to hire out an orchestra for the end of the year. We'll do Saint Saens 3 and Mahler 5. I'll do the principal trombone work - my once-per-year orchestra fix. We've done the complete Planets, Pictures, and Pines of Rome in past years.


----------



## Weston

I just learned that a very silly TV sitcom I watched as child, "Hogan's Heroes," starred actor Werner Klemperer, who it turns out is the son of conductor Otto Klemperer who achieved some of his earliest positions and notoriety on recommendations from his friend Mahler. 

Mind blown. 

How in blazes can there be this close a connection between a TV sitcom and Mahler? We live in a strange universe.


----------



## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> I just learned that a very silly TV sitcom I watched as child, "Hogan's Heroes," starred actor Werner Klemperer, who it turns out is the son of conductor Otto Klemperer who achieved some of his earliest positions and notoriety on recommendations from his friend Mahler.
> 
> Mind blown.
> 
> How in blazes can there be this close a connection between a TV sitcom and Mahler? We live in a strange universe.


Tis a small world, no doubt. Alma connected pretty much the entire artistic world by herself!


----------



## DeepR

After no. 1, 2 and 8, I still haven't started with any of the other symphonies. 
I listened to the 2nd many, many times last year and eventually I went to a concert of it. Haven't listened to it ever since, maybe from overexposure, or because nothing will beat the live experience.
I've listened to the complete 8th only a few times. I could barely get through some of the parts involving the soloists. Mostly I just listen to "Veeeni.. Veeeeeeni Creator Spiritus" for a few minutes..... and then I skip to "Alles vergängliche...." 
So, which one to choose next? 3 ?


----------



## Guest

DeepR said:


> After no. 1, 2 and 8, I still haven't started with any of the other symphonies.
> I listened to the 2nd many, many times last year and eventually I went to a concert of it. Haven't listened to it ever since, maybe from overexposure, or because nothing will beat the live experience.
> I've listened to the complete 8th only a few times. I could barely get through some of the parts involving the soloists. Mostly I just listen to "Veeeni.. Veeeeeeni Creator Spiritus" for a few minutes..... and then I skip to "Alles vergängliche...."
> So, which one to choose next? 3 ?


Number 6. It is very powerful. 3 is okay - honestly, I like them all. But I would next go with 6. After that, maybe 9 or Das Lied von der Erde. You could include 4 & 5 in there as well. Honestly, if you have liked at least 1 and 2 (2 is my favorite), you are going to get them all eventually. It is inevitable. For 6, I recommend Eschenbach with the Philadelphia Orchestra on Ondine - you get a great recording, and the bonus of having Mahler's single movement Piano Quartet.


----------



## tdc

DeepR said:


> After no. 1, 2 and 8, I still haven't started with any of the other symphonies.
> I listened to the 2nd many, many times last year and eventually I went to a concert of it. Haven't listened to it ever since, maybe from overexposure, or because nothing will beat the live experience.
> I've listened to the complete 8th only a few times. I could barely get through some of the parts involving the soloists. Mostly I just listen to "Veeeni.. Veeeeeeni Creator Spiritus" for a few minutes..... and then I skip to "Alles vergängliche...."
> So, which one to choose next? 3 ?


His best work (imo) is _Das Lied Von Der Erde_. But if you are looking more for straight orchestral the 6th and 9th would be the next ones I'd go for, then 3 then 4 but I agree with Dr. Mike, they are all worth listening to, and if you like 1, and 2 you will likely come to enjoy them all.


----------



## Mahlerian

DeepR said:


> After no. 1, 2 and 8, I still haven't started with any of the other symphonies.
> I listened to the 2nd many, many times last year and eventually I went to a concert of it. Haven't listened to it ever since, maybe from overexposure, or because nothing will beat the live experience.
> I've listened to the complete 8th only a few times. I could barely get through some of the parts involving the soloists. Mostly I just listen to "Veeeni.. Veeeeeeni Creator Spiritus" for a few minutes..... and then I skip to "Alles vergängliche...."
> So, which one to choose next? 3 ?


It's hard to find a group of soloists that can do justice to Mahler's conception in the 8th. They're difficult parts, but the music, in my opinion, is worth it. If one wants to fully understand Mahler, nowhere can we get a clearer idea of his motivic development and thematic transformation than in the 8th, where material is freely shared between both movements and continually reappears in new guises.


----------



## Vaneyes

Bone said:


> We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one - I'll certainly give the Boulez a more thorough going-over this week, but I just don't feel him in Mahler.
> 
> An update: the Barshai and Barbirolli arrived this week. Listened offhand to Barshai and enjoyed the small details he brought out as well as the interesting balances he achieved - a welcome tonic for the Boulez I still had in my ears (haha, Mahlerian)...
> 
> Barbirolli, on the other hand, is WAY more idiosyncratic than I expected. Guess I don't know my Sir John very well, but he takes many liberties and I'm not sure I really liked the 2nd mvmt as slow he did. The "adagietto," however, is now right at the top of my list of favorite single movements of music I've ever heard (HvK Bruckner 8 adagio is the other). Unbelievable control of phrasing and beauty of line. Overall, though, the performance strikes me as slow and odd (besides mvmt. IV). I'll keep working on it - I don't play Mahler 5 until the end of the month (my birthday weekend - how's that for a treat along with Saint-Saens 3???).


I have yet to come across a conductor that I can give two thumbs up to every Mahler item he recorded ('cepting very limited outputs from Shipway and Harding). Picking and choosing is okay. Re Boulez, I particularly enjoy Nos. 6 & 8 (DG). With Barbirolli, Nos. 6 & 9 (EMI). :tiphat:


----------



## Bone

Update: Mahler 5 performance was a ton of fun. I thought the band did an excellent job and I felt like we all had a great experience. Personally, it is in my top 10 favorite performances. On top of all that, I am now an official fan of Mahler 5. Still prefer 1 and 2, but if I stick to listening to Mahler for another month or so 5 might sneak up behind 1 in my book. 
Mahlerian, I'm going to be doing some heavy 6 listening soon. I've got Boulez and Bernstein; who else do I need?


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## elgar's ghost

Bone said:


> Update: Mahler 5 performance was a ton of fun. I thought the band did an excellent job and I felt like we all had a great experience. Personally, it is in my top 10 favorite performances. On top of all that, I am now an official fan of Mahler 5. Still prefer 1 and 2, but if I stick to listening to Mahler for another month or so 5 might sneak up behind 1 in my book.
> Mahlerian, I'm going to be doing some heavy 6 listening soon. I've got Boulez and Bernstein; who else do I need?


I would give Tennstedt's live recording with the LPO a shot - as long as you don't get too fazed by the jerk who yells 'Bravo!' with indecent haste at the end when a second or two of pre-applause hush would have been more appropriate bearing in mind the mood of overpowering emptiness that the conclusion of this work conveys. it really is quite jarring and it's a pity the engineers couldn't edit it out.


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## Mahlerian

Bone said:


> Update: Mahler 5 performance was a ton of fun. I thought the band did an excellent job and I felt like we all had a great experience. Personally, it is in my top 10 favorite performances. On top of all that, I am now an official fan of Mahler 5. Still prefer 1 and 2, but if I stick to listening to Mahler for another month or so 5 might sneak up behind 1 in my book.


Great to hear! Mahler 5 is definitely in a different style from the first few, but it's a wonderfully cohesive work, and most of the symphony is in major keys, unlike several of his others.



Bone said:


> Mahlerian, I'm going to be doing some heavy 6 listening soon. I've got Boulez and Bernstein; who else do I need?


Which Bernstein? I like the DG one with the Vienna Phil, but don't care much for the Sony/NYP version.

I'll second the Tennstedt (the one on the LPO's own label, I presume), and add Abbado's live recording with the Berlin Philharmonic, which has the applause on a separate track, easily programmed out.


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## elgar's ghost

My apologies, Mahlerian - I didn't notice until I posted that Bone was asking you specifically about M6. Glad you agree with my choice, anyway!


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## Lunasong

'My time will come.' That's probably the most famous of all the remarks attributed to Gustav Mahler. It seems to have come resoundingly true in our own time. Not only do Mahler's symphonies and song cycles turn up regularly in concert programmes and record catalogues, but the use of the voluptuously beautiful _Adagietto_ from his Fifth Symphony in the Visconti film _Death in Venice_ has also brought Mahler to an audience that might never have thought of setting foot in a concert hall or the classical section of a record store.

Yet for most of his career Mahler was widely known, not as a composer, but as a great conductor who also happened to compose. His nine completed symphonies - the backbone of his output - were ridiculed in some circles. He was routinely accused of being absurdly extravagant, morbid, self-indulgent, unable to discriminate between the sublime and the ridiculous, and worst of all, derivative. When Mahler was conductor at the Vienna Opera, there was a standing joke among musicians. A messenger is seen delivering some scores to Mahler's dressing room: Beethoven, Berlioz, Bruckner, Schumann, Tchaikovsky - 'Aha,' says the observer, 'he's composing again!'

Many Mahler-loving readers will find it baffling that one of the most original and distinctive composers of the 20th century could ever have been dismissed as a mere plagiarist. But the fact is, there is a grain of truth in the allegation. Play the very beginning of the slow (third) movement of Mahler's Fourth Symphony followed by the orchestral introduction to the Quartet 'Mir ist so wunderbar' from Act I of Beethoven's opera Fidelio and you'll discover the Mahler is virtually a copy. Only the metre is changed: four beats to a bar instead of three. It can't be coincidence: Fidelio was one of the operas Mahler conducted most frequently.

In fact, Mahler is one of music's great synthesisers. He brings together elements from a huge range of sources: folksongs, street-ditties, barrel-organ tunes, crude military marches, Biergarten waltzes rub shoulders with noble chorales and melodies whose grace and warm intensity recall Schubert or Schumann. This wild mixing process can also be felt at a deeper, structural level. Thus the Third Symphony combines stretches of self-evident symphonic logic with elements of oratorio, Lieder and even Viennese operetta; the Eighth progresses from a Herculean display of neo-Beethovenian counterpoint to something much closer to grand opera.

Attempts have been made to explain the bewildering range of Mahler's sound-worlds in terms of his personal psychology. One incident is made much of by some commentators. In August 1910, Mahler met Sigmund Freud who, in a letter written 14 years later, described what the composer told him. '[Mahler's] father, apparently a brutal person, treated his wife very badly, and when Mahler was a young boy there was a specially painful scene between them. It became quite unbearable to the boy, who rushed away from the house. At that moment, however, a hurdy-gurdy in the street was grinding out the popular Viennese air "O, du lieber Augustin". In Mahler's opinion the conjunction of high tragedy and light amusement was from then on inextricably fixed in his mind, and the one mood inevitably brought the other with it.'

Yet Mahler's bringing together of incongruous elements is not in itself new. What is new is the way he exalts it into a musical philosophy. Even those derivations from other composers are part of it all. He isn't simply stealing from them: he is invoking the great classical tradition in which he was raised. The terrifying climax of the Adagio first movement of the incomplete Tenth Symphony, for example, brings to mind both the Adagio final movement of the Ninth Symphony by Mahler's teacher Bruckner and the climactic crescendo of the slow movement of Schubert's Ninth Symphony. It's as though Mahler were telling us, 'I belong with these people, and yet I don't'; the kind of ironic stance one might expect of an artist who described himself as 'three times homeless: a native of Bohemia in Austria; an Austrian among Germans; a Jew throughout the whole world.'

It is also what one might expect of a highly self-conscious 20th-century composer looking back on the 19th century. For although Mahler often seems to present himself in late-Romantic musical dress, his vision of a universe that is full of ambiguities, paradoxes and contradictions is a thoroughly modern one, in line with the puzzles of Franz Kafka or the 'impossible' pictures of Max Escher. Not that Mahler always remains true to this 'modern' vision. When, at the end of the Fifth Symphony, he brings back the chorale theme from the second movement in brassy triumph, it seems he wants us to hear this as the culmination of a musical story-line that has run throughout the work. But in all his symphonies, the story-line is eventually disrupted by forces which seem to intrude from some other dimension.

Far from seeing everything in terms of one all-encompassing vision, he can see only the frightening diversity of things - a universe without the reassuring certainties of religious faith or Newtonian physics. Sometimes he himself is unequal to that vision. He tries to find faith, rational order in his cosmos. At other times he attempts escapism, as in the Fourth Symphony's nostalgic portrayal of an imagined childhood paradise. But the attempts ultimately fail and then there is the possibility of the void to be faced - as in the singer's unresolved falling phrases at the end of _Das Lied von der Erde_. Perhaps that is why it took so long for Mahler's time to come. Yet his ability to confront a potentially godless universe can help us confront it. If we make the journey with him, we may find that we are the better for it.

_Stephen Johnson_
http://www.classical-music.com/topic/gustav-mahler


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## WavesOfParadox

The greatest of all the symphonists and romantics.


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## elgar's ghost

Has anyone heard Wyn Morris's few Mahler recordings? I gather that they are generally well-approved but now expensive to get.


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## Celloman

If you want a powerful interpretation of the 6th, go with Jansons and the London Symphony live at the Barbican. It's pretty compelling. The 4th movement has to be heard to be believed, Janson's "hammer strokes" will knock you out of your seat.


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## Vaneyes

Celloman said:


> If you want a powerful interpretation of the 6th, go with Jansons and the London Symphony live at the Barbican. It's pretty compelling. The 4th movement has to be heard to be believed, Janson's "hammer strokes" will knock you out of your seat.


Re LSO/Jansons M6, tame stuff, I'd say. 

Suggestions:

NPO/Glorious John's...skip ahead to 32:00






VPO/Boulez'...skip ahead to 9:30


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## peeyaj

WavesOfParadox said:


> The greatest of all the symphonists and romantics.


Citation needed.


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## Mahlerian

peeyaj said:


> Citation needed.


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## peeyaj

Mahlerian said:


>


----------



## Adagietto

Purists might not like it, but I seek out different arrangements of my favorite pieces.

Mahler's 9th
arranged by Kazunori Seo for 12 players
Kenichi Nakagawa, conductor





Does anyone know if it, or a studio recording has been released? I tried searching Amazon Japan with no luck.


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## Cosmos

Adagietto said:


> Purists might not like it, but I seek out different arrangements of my favorite pieces.


This is a very interesting arrangement! [don't worry, I'm no purist ] It kinda reminds me of Schoenberg's re-orchestration of Das Lied, of course it didn't have as few performers as this


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## Vaneyes

For those interested in Mahler boxes, "Top Ear" mentions that DG Boulez will be released in October. They offer comments for each recording (linked). I find his VPO 6 and Staats. Berlin 8 exceptional. It's one of the better sounding sets, though there is some unevenness in performance and sound, with four different orchestras being used. :tiphat:

http://topear.wordpress.com/2013/09/05/a-consideration-of-pierre-boulezs-mahler-cycle/


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## ptr

Can't see that anyone has mentioned this novelty in here!






Arnold Schönberg Copnducts the Cadillac Symphony in Symphony No 2 (2nd Mvt ), Los Angeles, 1934 Radio Broadcast!
A bit stodgy (medium?), but quite interesting anyway..

/ptr


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## Mahlerian

ptr said:


> Arnold Schönberg Copnducts the Cadillac Symphony in Symphony No 2 (2nd Mvt ), Los Angeles, 1934 Radio Broadcast!
> A bit stodgy (medium?), but quite interesting anyway..
> 
> /ptr


Well, he's a far better conductor than the likes of Kaplan, that's for sure. He has a truly old-world sense of Viennese _gemütlichkeit_, so necessary to this movement. I wish we had recordings from Webern, who was supposedly an excellent Mahler conductor.


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## Bas

I'm invited by a good friend that has her son (professional trumpet player) playing Mahler 10 in concert in about four months. I never have listened too much to Mahler symphonies and don't own a recording. What recording would you advise me (for the tenth, but preferably a set of all the symphonies so I can dive in the composer more thoroughly)?


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## Mahlerian

Bas said:


> I'm invited by a good friend that has her son (professional trumpet player) playing Mahler 10 in concert in about four months. I never have listened too much to Mahler symphonies and don't own a recording. What recording would you advise me (for the tenth, but preferably a set of all the symphonies so I can dive in the composer more thoroughly)?


For the 10th, Simon Rattle's recording with the Berlin Philharmonic seems to be the standard, although I'm not a fan of it personally.

For the other symphonies, Bernstein, Tennstedt, and Boulez are favorites, and I like individual recordings from Walter, Abbado, and Solti.


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## ptr

I quite like Daniel Hardings 10th with WPO (Cooke III) on DG, for a complete cycle I still think that Bernstein's (CBS/Sony) or Kubelik (DG) fairs the best of the boxed cycles I've heard, but like most Mahlerites I would much prefer to mix and match my own cycle with different conductors!

/ptr


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## Vaneyes

I second the Harding 10. Not all sets contain the 10th, so supplementing is usually done. Bernstein (Sony), Bertini (EMI) are two good considerations, with liberal and central readings respectively. :tiphat:


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## realchanger

Try his 4th Symphony - it's much lighter in mood (except for the Adagio!). Remember that his music mostly reflected his life and inner turmoils which were complex.


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## realchanger

What happened to the Resurrection 3rd and the immense 8th. Once heard never forgotten. I was lucky enough to attend Bernsteins rendition of the 8th and Stokowski's 3rd - truly memorable performances. BTW the unfinished 10th has an amazing Adagio.


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## techniquest

> Has anyone heard Wyn Morris's few Mahler recordings? I gather that they are generally well-approved but now expensive to get.


I have 
The very best of the bunch are the 8th and the 5th with the Symphonica of London, both were issued on CD by IMP Classics but as you say are getting ever more expensive (and difficult) to find, although Amazon UK have the 5th for just £7.99. His 2nd symphony with the same band is really not worth the effort however. He also recorded the 1st including the Blumine movement with the New Philharmonia which I have on vinyl (PYE Virtuoso), and also the 4th, 9th, 10th and Das Klagende Lied.


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## cDeanSharon

Anyone have any opinions of the Zinman Mahler cycle recorded about three or four years ago?

I have recently purchased a recording of the fifth and while it wasn't as dramatic as my Bernstein recording, it wasn't too bad and I moved on to order the first and second symphonies as well. Any word on these recordings would be appreciated.


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## Itullian

cDeanSharon said:


> Anyone have any opinions of the Zinman Mahler cycle recorded about three or four years ago?
> 
> I have recently purchased a recording of the fifth and while it wasn't as dramatic as my Bernstein recording, it wasn't too bad and I moved on to order the first and second symphonies as well. Any word on these recordings would be appreciated.


I like them a lot. Like you said, not as emotive as Bernstein, but not sterile either.
And I love the recorded sound. Rich and detailed.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Mahler did best with the 7th


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## Avey

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Mahler did best with the 7th


You, my friend, are incorrect!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Avey said:


> You, my friend, are incorrect!


Oh  Well I like the 7th the best, probably the most immediately accessible to me.


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## Pantheon

I keep changing my mind on that matter. I was really into the 2nd with Fischer's interpretation, now I've shifted to the 1st by Solti.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I have just noticed that in this thread I have pretty much only mentioned the 7th....well, it's awesome.


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## ptr

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I have just noticed that in this thread I have pretty much only mentioned the 7th....well, it's awesome.


You are quite correct Young Padawan, it is without a doubt one of Gustav Mahler's ten best symphonies, we might even be as bold as saying that it is one of his five best Symphonies even if that might not be completely substantiated by statistical onomatopoetic scatology research! 

/ptr


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

ptr said:


> You are quite correct Young Padawan, it is without a doubt one of Gustav Mahler's ten best symphonies, we might even be as bold as saying that it is one of his five best Symphonies even if that might not be completely substantiated by statistical onomatopoetic scatology research!
> 
> /ptr


:lol: :lol:


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## Vaneyes

ptr said:


> You are quite correct Young Padawan, it is without a doubt one of Gustav Mahler's ten best symphonies, *we might even be as bold as saying that it is one of his five best Symphonies *even if that might not be completely substantiated by statistical onomatopoetic scatology research!
> 
> /ptr


Hmmm, nope. 3, 2, 9, 1, 5, DLVDE, 6, 7, 4, 8, 10.


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## Itullian

1, 5 ...........................


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## ptr

Vaneyes said:


> Hmmm, nope. 3, 2, 9, 1, 5, DLVDE, 6, 7, 4, 8, 10.


You may be correct Mr Van, I told You that it hitting top five was scatology, anyway I'm always ambivalent in rating Mahler's Symphonic works!! But I will defend the universal correctness in saying the No 4 is his most enjoyable Symphony with an arm and a leg stretched out as far as possible!

/ptr


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## Winterreisender

to give my two cents:

2, 1, 5, 8, 3, DLvdE, 4, 9, 6, 10, 7 (sorry but 7 is the one I find the hardest to enjoy!)


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## Crudblud

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I have just noticed that in this thread I have pretty much only mentioned the 7th....well, it's awesome.


The 7th has possibly Mahler's best opening movement in my opinion, and that's no mean feat.


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## tdc

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Mahler did best with the 7th


I think Mahler did his best with _Das Lied Von Der Erde_. One of the most stunning works I know of - by any composer.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

7
9
6
1
4
10
2
dlvde
3
8
5


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## Winterreisender

I suppose the great thing about Mahler is that everyone has a different set of favourites, probably because each symphony has its own unique personality. I like #1 for its playfulness, #2 for its grandiose finale, #3 for its pastoral charm, #5 for its rustic character... but I know other people prefer the later works as these tend to be a bit darker.


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## mstar

I believe the correct order is: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 

And THEN you divide.


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## violadude

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> 7
> 9
> 6
> 1
> 4
> 10
> 2
> dlvde
> 3
> 8
> 5


Umm sir, this is the music police. I'm sorry but I'm going to have to give you a fine of 500 AUS dollars for putting Das Lied so far down on your list.


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## senza sordino

The Fourth Symphony is the first I purchased, on cassette tape, 25 yrs ago. I no longer have it, I threw out all my tapes. Does anyone know what's the deal with the tuning of the soloist violin in the second movement? It's tuned differently, but I don't know how. I like this symphony because it is a bit lighter than his others. Prefer 2, 5, 9. But the fourth is a nice listen. I used the 4th movement in my slide show of photos from my trip to Switzerland some years ago.


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## GioCar

senza sordino said:


> Does anyone know what's the deal with the tuning of the soloist violin in the second movement? It's tuned differently, but I don't know how.


The solo violin has all strings tuned a tone higher.


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## Blake

I'm really having a hard time cracking Mahler's safe. I know there's roses inside, but it just hasn't clicked with me yet. The inquiry will continue.


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## Mahlerian

Vesuvius said:


> I'm really having a hard time cracking Mahler's safe. I know there's roses inside, but it just hasn't clicked with me yet. The inquiry will continue.


What have you heard so far and what were your impressions?


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## Blake

Mahlerian said:


> What have you heard so far and what were your impressions?


Symphonies 1, 2 and 5 by Chailly. It came off to me like plenty of meandering without very much reward. But like I said, something keeps pushing me back, as I feel it's me that's the problem.


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## DrKilroy

I am no expert at Mahler, but repeated listening might help. The only Mahler piece I liked immediately was Das Lied von der Erde, so perhaps you could try this one.

Best regards, Dr


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## Mahlerian

Vesuvius said:


> Symphonies 1, 2 and 5 by Chailly. It came off to me like plenty of meandering without very much reward. But like I said, something keeps pushing me back, as I feel it's me that's the problem.


Well, Chailly's not my favorite Mahler conductor by a long shot.

There isn't anything pointless or meandering in Mahler's music, but it can take some familiarity to recognize this. The lack of literal repetition is a turn-off for some.


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## chalkpie

Vesuvius said:


> Symphonies 1, 2 and 5 by Chailly. It came off to me like plenty of meandering without very much reward. But like I said, something keeps pushing me back, as I feel it's me that's the problem.


Try:

M2 - mvt 5
M3 - mvt 1, 6
M4 - mvt 3
M5 - mvt 1, 2, 4
M6 - mvt 3 (andante)
M7 - mvt 1, 4
M8 - part II - the prelude
M9 - mvt 1, 4
M10 - agagio
Das Lied - Der Abschied
Ruckert Lieder - "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen"

If you don't dig these movements, give up and run for the hills!


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## Blake

I picked up Bernstein's cycle as well, but have yet to listen. I'll give everything more time... I'm a patient man. 

Thanks :tiphat:


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## senza sordino

Vesuvius said:


> I'm really having a hard time cracking Mahler's safe. I know there's roses inside, but it just hasn't clicked with me yet. The inquiry will continue.


All the suggestions are great, particular movements and repeated listening. I think you could also warm up to Mahler by listening chronologically to others of the 19th century: Schumann and Brahms take one path, but Lizst and orchestral Wagner take another that leads naturally to Mahler.


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## Mahlerian

senza sordino said:


> All the suggestions are great, particular movements and repeated listening. I think you could also warm up to Mahler by listening chronologically to others of the 19th century: Schumann and Brahms take one path, but Lizst and orchestral Wagner take another that leads naturally to Mahler.


Berlioz and Bruckner were very influential on the symphonies as well, and Schubert on the songs.


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## GioCar

Mahlerian said:


> and Schubert on the songs.


I agree 100% with you, and I am quite suprised that in this thread I found only very few mentions to his lieder cycles.

IMHO I think that Des Knaben Wunderhorn should stand beside his symphonies, and a very relevant place should be assigned to the Kindertotenlieder and Rucker Lieder as well (not to mention his Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen and his lieder cycle "of the youth", containing small beautiful jewels).


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## Blake

senza sordino said:


> All the suggestions are great, particular movements and repeated listening. I think you could also warm up to Mahler by listening chronologically to others of the 19th century: Schumann and Brahms take one path, but Lizst and orchestral Wagner take another that leads naturally to Mahler.


Yea, I've been a fan of all the other popular composers... Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, Dvorak, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams, etc... It seems that Mahler is the one that I can't crack. I'll get it.

Thanks again for the suggestions.


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## Blake

I tell you what... this music is really starting to blossom with Bernstein. So much vibrancy in these recordings that it's hard not to be drawn in. Mahler is starting to make sense.


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## chalkpie

Vesuvius said:


> I tell you what... this music is really starting to blossom with Bernstein. So much vibrancy in these recordings that it's hard not to be drawn in. Mahler is starting to make sense.


Dude, you're f*****.

I once hated Mahler. and now I own at least 17 M2's on disc, not including MP3. He evokes that type of passion and fanaticism in his music. 9 symphonies (really 10 +), some orchestral songs, and a handful of other works (albeit great), and this guy has a command on listeners that is rare. Actually the only other composer that has this grip That I've seen is Wagner.

Enjoy the ride, mate, and spin a few M3's, M7's, and M9's for me...and Das Lied a bunch of times :cheers:


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## Vaneyes

You-know-who examines *Mahler 1*. No love for Muti (rec.1984) or Solti (rec.1983).

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/nov/12/symphony-guide-maher-first-tom-service


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## joen_cph

Overall I quite like you-know-who´s writing style, agreeing or not on his views, but as it is usually the case with newspaper mentioning of recordings, the comparative selection seems quite random and without the dimension of the "historical canon" of releases. Also, his characterizations are somewhat vague here.

Concerning Mahler´s First, an absolute minimum would have to include some Walter, and better still a bit about Kubelik and Scherchen.


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## scratchgolf

chalkpie said:


> Dude, you're f*****.
> 
> I once hated Mahler. and now I own at least 17 M2's on disc, not including MP3. He evokes that type of passion and fanaticism in his music. 9 symphonies (really 10 +), some orchestral songs, and a handful of other works (albeit great), and this guy has a command on listeners that is rare. Actually the only other composer that has this grip That I've seen is Wagner.
> 
> Enjoy the ride, mate, and spin a few M3's, M7's, and M9's for me...and Das Lied a bunch of times :cheers:


I listened to Mahler's 2nd today for the first time. Played it while I was cooking dinner. I purchased a huge Mahler set and so far have only partially heard his 1st. Nothing stuck me right off but I'm told that's perfectly natural with Mahler. So as I'm cooking and passively listening a certain portion begins playing and I'm stopped dead in my tracks. My temptation to go see which movement, and at what point of which movement almost got the better of me. I returned to my cooking. That's the beauty of discovery. I'll return to it again tomorrow night and let it grab me again. And hopefully that moment brings along some friends. Your post is exactly what I'm looking for. I want so much more but it will take patience to get it. You can't drink by diving into a pool of water and opening your mouth. You pour a glass and enjoy it. There will always be another.


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## chalkpie

scratchgolf said:


> I listened to Mahler's 2nd today for the first time. Played it while I was cooking dinner. I purchased a huge Mahler set and so far have only partially heard his 1st. Nothing stuck me right off but I'm told that's perfectly natural with Mahler. So as I'm cooking and passively listening a certain portion begins playing and I'm stopped dead in my tracks. My temptation to go see which movement, and at what point of which movement almost got the better of me. I returned to my cooking. That's the beauty of discovery. I'll return to it again tomorrow night and let it grab me again. And hopefully that moment brings along some friends. Your post is exactly what I'm looking for. I want so much more but it will take patience to get it. You can't drink by diving into a pool of water and opening your mouth. You pour a glass and enjoy it. There will always be another.


Now tomorrow when you get to the 4th mvt ("Urlicht") and 5th Finale, stop what you're doing and crank it as loud as you can and listen with your eyes closed. It doesn't sucketh!

What set do you have BTW?


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## scratchgolf

Most of my set is LSO but his 2nd is RHO


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## scratchgolf

I've been listening to his 2nd and 4th quite frequently. The 4th has really grabbed me and the 2nd is still growing.


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## Wandering

I'll blare the 2nd movement from his 1st symphony when I have to do house cleaning or am in a jolly/giddy mood and wish to sustain it.


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## Wandering

I remember hardly anything in Zander's performance of Mahler's 1st, only that the brisk 2nd movement was a bit of a turn off. What Zander says on the audio disc about the originality of vision in the third movement is very well said, I couldn't agree more.


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## Vaneyes

Kaplan and Zander are dangerous.


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## Wandering

So are you, always with a gulf club in your hands.


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## Wandering

I would like to know what others here think of Zander and his recordings of and thoughts on Mahler. I've only heard his Mahler 1st. As I said, his commentary on the 3rd movement struck me as pure gold.


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## CyrilWashbrook

Just borrowed the Barbirolli/Berliner Philharmoniker recording of the Ninth from my eldest sister, who's a huge Mahler fan.

I still haven't fully "gotten into" Mahler, though I quite like the first three symphonies. As far as the Ninth is concerned, it starts off well but I just find myself switching off as the work drags on. (Before the Barbirolli, I'd listened to the Karajan a handful of times.)


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## Blake

I've fully entered Mahler's world. His genius verges on unbelievable at times. Often I'll sit back and wonder, "how the hell did he do that?" Not many composers have put me in awe as consistently as him.


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## Guest

For Christmas, my wife got my the Mahler Lieder album, directed by Boulez (okay, I picked it out, and she bought it for me - she doesn't know the first thing about what I like in terms of classical music). Giving it a listen today. The Ruckert Lieder are among my favorites of the genre!


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## Zarathustra

I'm listening to Das Klagende Lied by Boulez. Is it wrong of me to enjoy it more than DLVDE? Maybe it's the familiarity with some melodies that would later appear in his symphonies or maybe it's just that the soloists are not yelling at me. I must admit that the beginning of DLVDE does put me off a bit. It (DLVDE) is his only work that I'm yet to really appreciate. Any recommended recording?


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## elgar's ghost

I admit that I do find the opening movement to DLvdE a little too shrill and blarey in places but I guess that was the kind of effect Mahler was after in order to portray the singer's fevered mind. Minor quibble aside, I think it's top-notch Mahler. Why not try the piano score version before again attempting the usual orchestral one? There are at least two recordings - the one I have is with Thomas Moser, Brigitte Fassbaender and Cyprien Katsaris (on Warner/Teldec). Fear not if you think reduced forces cannot sustain a work that lasts for nigh on an hour (especially as the final movement account for about half of it) - this is a very interesting alternative with much to recommend it.


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## Yardrax

I would like to log a complaint, I woke up yesterday morning with the first movement of Symphony No. 1 spinning around in my head and I haven't been able to get it out since


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## SayMozart

Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde (The Song of the Earth), last movement. The conductor Michael Tilson Thomas said in an interview about Mahler's music that he divides his life into two parts. Before he heard that piece and after. This is because it hit him right in the heart. This made me interested in listening to it again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYZiv...3F58AF79561A53


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## Rachmanijohn

First piece I ever heard of Mahler was his First Symphony. I remember it clearly, it was performed by the New York Philharmonic who at the time was still conducted by Lorin Maazel. What a night. That was the beginning of my love affair with Mahler. Probably my all time favorite works by him are the _Kindertotenlieder_. Smaller scale than the symphonies but oh so much emotion! Unstoppable.


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## PetrB

Zarathustra said:


> I'm listening to Das Klagende Lied by Boulez. Is it wrong of me to enjoy it more than DLVDE? Maybe it's the familiarity with some melodies that would later appear in his symphonies or maybe it's just that the soloists are not yelling at me. I must admit that the beginning of DLVDE does put me off a bit. It (DLVDE) is his only work that I'm yet to really appreciate. Any recommended recording?


Bruno Walter, NY Phil, Mildred Miller & Ernst Haefliger. This is the 'middle' recording of the three Walter made... he is considered the direct line to Mahler because he was. This is a sony 'classic', ergo budget CD (not as priced new on Amazon, lol -- maybe those days are over) the sound more than fine. 
The first recording (there is somewhat of a consensus on the three in which I am in agreement) is too fast, the final recording, with the more than alluring Kathleen Ferrier singing (reason enough to hear the lady sing this music), he takes too slow, as if to say stop along the way and tour-guide like, point out this bit, "listen to this here," and the overall momentum is 'not there.' (I just realized this is a Goldilocks and the three bears situation -- i.e. Walter's 'middle' recording of Das Lied von der Erde is "just right." 

http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Lied-Erde-Song-Earth/dp/B000002A7L/ref=sr_1_5?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1389506104&sr=1-5&keywords=Das+Lied+Von+Der+Erde+Walter (used, for just four bucks!)

I put this recording on for a friend familiar with Mahler but not DLvdE -- after the first song, _Das Trinklied vom Jammer der Erde,_ his comment, "Wow! What was he so angry about?" Well, that is as near a sort of 'in one' bingo as any. Mahler was at least intuitively conscious, if not via a doctor's prognosis, that he might not live out the normal allotment we think is ours, and in that first song I believe he is doing that about which Dylan Thomas later wrote, i.e not going at all gently into that good night.
"Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

[I have not heard the Klemperer, New Philharmonia Orchestra, with Christa Ludwig and Fritz Wunderlich, but that line-up is enough to make me want to listen and imagine it is more than fine, and again, to hear Ludwig and Wunderlich is certainly on its own worth the price of admission.

You're not 'wrong' to like the youthful Das Klagenede Lied more... All the Mahler songs are marvelous, but there is only one near end of life masterpiece like Das Lied von der Erde, so if you want that, 'you gotta go there.'


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## Mahlerian

PetrB said:


> Bruno Walter, NY Phil, Mildred Miller & Ernst Haefliger. This is the 'middle' recording of the three Walter made... he is considered the direct line to Mahler because he was.


Not the only one, though. Klemperer and Mengelberg also worked with him, and performed his works in the years after his death.


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## joen_cph

The conductors F. C. Adler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Charles_Adler

and Oskar Fried http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Fried

also had some association with Mahler and recorded works by him, Fried´s unfortunately being in very poor sound quality.


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## altom

in this long thread, I was not able to find any reference to the 8th,
probably I missed it, sorry
my personal liking goes for the 8th. "Sinfonie der Tausend" as Mahler's impresario named it,
you feel literally the POWER,
moreover, strangely enough, I do not feel the usual Mahlerian pessimistic view. Thinking that it was the last time Mahler directed his own work (he died a few months later), this induced me to consider my views on life and death, or if you like, life after death?

The organ incipit along with the choir fortissimo, almost screaming "Veni Creator Spiritus" stays indelible in your hears, mind, heart.


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## Guest

Zarathustra said:


> I'm listening to Das Klagende Lied by Boulez. Is it wrong of me to enjoy it more than DLVDE? Maybe it's the familiarity with some melodies that would later appear in his symphonies or maybe it's just that the soloists are not yelling at me. I must admit that the beginning of DLVDE does put me off a bit. It (DLVDE) is his only work that I'm yet to really appreciate. Any recommended recording?


I have several recordings that I love:







I really like this live version by Kubelik on Audite, and it has Janet Baker, one of the all-time great female Mahler singers.







I am a fan of almost all thinks Klemperer, and I really enjoy his Mahler recordings. This recording boasts not only Klemperer, but also the fabulous soloists Christa Ludwig and Fritz Wunderlich. Definitely one to have on hand.







This one is in my top list, and Reiner does a wonderful job here. I don't enjoy the soloists as much as the Kubelik and Klemperer recordings, but this is still a top notch performance.

And, finally, if you prefer two male voices:







King is fine here, but you get Bernstein with the Vienna Philharmonic, and, most importantly, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. This is an excellent recording. Try it, if the other recordings have not impressed you as much. I am a little biased towards this recording, as it was the very first recording of this masterpiece that I ever heard.


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## Avey

Anyone else think Bernstein's version of the _Fifth_ particularly, well, _boring_? Or, a better way to put it, anti-climatic?

Mahlerian turned me on Tennestedt (just generally, all of the Mahler' symphonies), and I've really enjoyed that one. I think Bernstein's recording of the _First_ is spectacular, but I can't necessarily express why -- in comparison to others. Just noticed with the _Fifth_ that his version is rather uneventful -- which is sort of odd for Leonard.


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## DaDirkNL

Avey said:


> Anyone else think Bernstein's version of the _Fifth_ particularly, well, _boring_? Or, a better way to put it, anti-climatic?
> 
> Mahlerian turned me on Tennestedt (just generally, all of the Mahler' symphonies), and I've really enjoyed that one. I think Bernstein's recording of the _First_ is spectacular, but I can't necessarily express why -- in comparison to others. Just noticed with the _Fifth_ that his version is rather uneventful -- which is sort of odd for Leonard.


I agree. Bernstein's renditions of all of Mahler is fine, except for the fifth.


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## Mahlerian

Avey said:


> Anyone else think Bernstein's version of the _Fifth_ particularly, well, _boring_? Or, a better way to put it, anti-climatic?


The Sony or the DG?


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## nightscape

Love Mahler, Bernstein doesn't do it for me in most cases.


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## stevederekson

Avey said:


> Anyone else think Bernstein's version of the _Fifth_ particularly, well, _boring_? Or, a better way to put it, anti-climatic?
> 
> Mahlerian turned me on Tennestedt (just generally, all of the Mahler' symphonies), and I've really enjoyed that one. I think Bernstein's recording of the _First_ is spectacular, but I can't necessarily express why -- in comparison to others. Just noticed with the _Fifth_ that his version is rather uneventful -- which is sort of odd for Leonard.


For me, the best Mahler conductors are Tennstedt and Horenstein. Bernstein is a close third.

Bernstein's Fifth is still rather fluid, particularly in the second movement. His tempo on the Adagietto is perfect.


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## nightscape

Can someone tell me if the sound quality on these discs are the same for the 8th? They're the same performance, but I wasn't sure if the remaster was the same.















Also, how does the remaster of Solit's 8th sound compared to the old boxed set?


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## Avey

Mahlerian said:


> The Sony or the DG?


Sony. Was that the one you had in mind?


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## Mahlerian

Avey said:


> Sony. Was that the one you had in mind?


Yeah, I've never liked that recording either. I prefer his DG recording, although it's very much on the slow side and I prefer Tennstedt and others in this work as you do.


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## hpowders

Hey Gustav! It's just you and me here pal. Everyone else is busy putting down Lang Lang.
Anyhow, is heaven the way you expected it, like in the concluding movement of your 4th symphony?
Or is there no such thing and death is simply like a light switch going off?


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## Marschallin Blair

The Adagietto from Mahler's Fifth as conceived by Karajan and executed by Berlin: perfection in sentiment without sounding affectedly glib or glossy. . . oh, and on a different emotional front: Karajan's handling of the second movement just HAMMERS.


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## Marschallin Blair

Karajan's LIVE Mahler's Ninth is a sine qua non in my book.


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## hpowders

I love Mahler but do not play the symphonies often. For me, he wants to take me to places I don't really want to go, especially the last movement of the ninth.

My favorite Mahler is probably the magnificent, overwhelming adagio finale from the third symphony; a terrific positive statement on life.


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## Marschallin Blair

The horns, percussion, and overall engineering quality of this Sinopoli Mahler Third-- at the beginning and end of the first movement especially-- are pure majesty:


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## hpowders

Marschallin Blair said:


> Karajan's LIVE Mahler's Ninth is a sine qua non in my book.
> 
> View attachment 33251


Yes it is and it is my favorite performance of this music. He out-Bernsteined Bernstein,who despite many attempts, never gave a completely convincing performance of it. He let sentimentality get the best of him.


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## Marschallin Blair

hpowders said:


> Yes it is and it is my favorite performance of this music. He out-Bernsteined Bernstein,who despite many attempts, never gave a completely convincing performance of it. He let sentimentality get the best of him.


Most assuredly. . . Ironic, isn't it?: Karajan with the utmost sang-froid gives a perfervid performance; whereas Lenny-- bless his heart, now here comes the drop hammer-- with the utmost petit bourgeois self in-DUL-gance, gets considerably less.


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## Marschallin Blair

I really like Jarvi's staccato, 300-like first movement. And the last six minutes or so of the last movement of this performance?-- Oh. . . my. . . GOD!! High drama in the Gotterdammerung manner. I loooooooooooove it.


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## hpowders

Marschallin Blair said:


> Most assuredly. . . Ironic, isn't it?: Karajan with the utmost sang-froid gives a perfervid performance; whereas Lenny-- bless his heart, now here comes the drop hammer-- with the utmost petit bourgeois self in-DUL-gance, gets considerably less.


Karajan probably would have been the last conductor I would choose to have an affinity to conduct Mahler. Yet he strikes the perfect balance in a beautifully proportioned performance. On a par with his great performances of Beethoven's 9th symphony.


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## Cosmos

For the fifth, I really like Gregiev conducting the LSO. He directs the orchestra in a faster tempo during part of the finale that other conductors don't do, and I think it sounds better that way. To any one else who's heard his interpretation, what do you think of it?


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## Marschallin Blair

As Karajan's Mahler goes, I incline to his entire Fifth, his entire live Ninth, with a highly-qualified acceptance of his Sixth-- that is to say, only the Andante of the Sixth-- which completely blew me away the first time (and many subsequent times!) I heard it. The rest of his Sixth is too tame for me. The Andante chokes me up though.


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## Itullian

Marschallin Blair said:


> View attachment 33250
> 
> 
> The Adagietto from Mahler's Fifth as conceived by Karajan and executed by Berlin: perfection in sentiment without sounding affectedly glib or glossy. . . oh, and on a different emotional front: Karajan's handling of the second movement just HAMMERS.


My favorite 5...............


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## nightscape

hpowders said:


> I love Mahler but do not play the symphonies often. For me, he wants to take me to places I don't really want to go...


Like the back of a volkswagen?


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## Vaneyes

nightscape said:


> Like the back of a volkswagen?


No back or front with the old Beetle. My first and last Volksvogen.


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## Vaneyes

Marschallin Blair said:


> Karajan's LIVE Mahler's Ninth is a *sine qua non *in my book.
> 
> View attachment 33251


Me, too. What's that mean?


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## hpowders

nightscape said:


> Like the back of a volkswagen?


Only with you Clara.


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## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> Me, too. What's that mean?


It's math. You have sine qua non, cosine qua non, tangent qua non.
I thought it was obvious.
Also when you drink alone, it's wine qua non.


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## Guest

Last night was possibly the best classical concert of my life (keep in mind I've been to like...4 since I got into classical music, so not many). Consisted of Britten's Sea Interludes, Mahler's Des Knaben Wunderhorn, and Brahms 4. Anyway, I was really excited for Brahms 4 all along, which was divine and didn't disappoint, but as much as I like Mahler 2 and 6 and a couple of Britten pieces so far, I wasn't really expecting much from the first half of the concert. 

Each piece was a very pleasant and special surprise, however, with the Mahler lieder being the surprise of the evening for me. I really feel like I got a glimpse into why this composer is so loved last night, and am hopeful that I'll start to "get it" with more Mahler very soon.


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## MagneticGhost

Did anyone here watch the Mariss Janson's conducted Mahler 2 on Sky Arts a couple of weeks back. Just got round to watching it (recorded it onto my HD), with a friend (another Mahler Enthusiast).. We both thought it was a breathtaking performance, and having only planned on watching the first movement, we ended up watching till the end. 
I'm looking forward to watching MJ's version of the 3rd next.

Sky Arts are showing all the Mahler symphony's weekly with a variety of conductors.


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## clara s

“My life has all been paper” Gustav Mahler had said.

He lived a full life in music, ranging from joyful as a student,
to a complete depression later.

He is an extraordinary composer, as he was a fascinating conductor.
And quite unpredictable.

Tonight, being in the middle of winter, sit on your living room armchair, light a fire,
make a hot cup of tea or take a glass of brandy, relax and press the button of the CD player.


Listening to his most exquisite 9th symphony, you will feel Mahler’s perfect orchestration 
and intelligence filling the room and you will follow him to his journey in music, 
as a real Master, when he says:


“It is always the same with me; only when I experience something do I compose, 
and only when composing do I experience! 
After all, a musician's nature can hardly be expressed in words.”


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## hpowders

I am quite emotionally struck by your "Songs on the Death of Children". What pain you must have experienced to write such devastating music. I would love to discuss this matter with you, but alas, it's too late! I was born too late, Herr Gustav!

Regrets,
hpowders
From the New World


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## Skilmarilion

There is a wonderful set of youtube interviews (which I recently discovered) made by Universal Edition, gathering the thoughts of many great conductors on Mahler's music.

http://www.youtube.com/user/uemahlerinterviews/featured


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## Zarathustra

@ elgars ghost , PetrB , DrMike

Thanks for the replies and sorry for the tardiness in responding.

I couldn't find a piano score version. I listened to Edo de Waart doing a Schoenberg version and I liked it. Though it was the booming voice at the start that had me unconfortable, not the orchestration.

I then listened to Walter and I loved it. A lot less "operatic" but very honest and moving.

I think I will now move on to the Kubelick and then perhaps Bernstein.

It is still not my favourite Mahler but I think i get it now. This and the 3rd I will enjoy better as I grow older (and more mature?) I suppose.

Best regards.


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## danielsshao

One of my favorites (probably the favorite). I must confess that I didn't really like Mahler's music at first: at that point I'd still say I was a very "casual" listener: I still hadn't really made it past the standard Beethoven, Mozart, and Brahms. Something kept me going back, though, (as is the case with a lot of good music I don't respect at first) and I had my doubts until about almost a half year of listening to Mahler. Then, I tossed all of my reservations aside and kind of turned into a fanboy. I kept discovering more and more of his work, but now, I have to say that Mahler's final three symphonies (counting Das Lied and 10) are the one's I'd probably consider his great masterpieces.

A lot of people have many criticisms of Mahler: certainly he's not for everyone. But I can't help but feel that a lot of those criticisms are really just the result of not truly understanding what he was trying to get at and relying on the "emo" stereotype that he seems to have developed, or they're from people who are a bit early in the classical music listening process and find him a bit too much to stomach, which I can perfectly understand.


----------



## DaDirkNL

danielsshao said:


> One of my favorites (probably the favorite). I must confess that I didn't really like Mahler's music at first: at that point I'd still say I was a very "casual" listener: I still hadn't really made it past the standard Beethoven, Mozart, and Brahms. Something kept me going back, though, (as is the case with a lot of good music I don't respect at first) and I had my doubts until about almost a half year of listening to Mahler. Then, I tossed all of my reservations aside and kind of turned into a fanboy. I kept discovering more and more of his work, but now, I have to say that Mahler's final three symphonies (counting Das Lied and 10) are the one's I'd probably consider his great masterpieces.
> 
> A lot of people have many criticisms of Mahler: certainly he's not for everyone. But I can't help but feel that a lot of those criticisms are really just the result of not truly understanding what he was trying to get at and relying on the "emo" stereotype that he seems to have developed, or they're from people who are a bit early in the classical music listening process and find him a bit too much to stomach, which I can perfectly understand.


Agreed. Mahler was for me, of all the tonal composers, the hardest one to get into. He is also without a doubt the most rewarding composer to get into. The beautiful melodies, the textures, the counterpoint, it's all so wonderful!


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## hpowders

Very easy to get into once one comes to grip with the lengths of the symphonies.


----------



## GMSS

DaDirkNL said:


> Agreed. Mahler was for me, of all the tonal composers, the hardest one to get into. He is also without a doubt the most rewarding composer to get into. The beautiful melodies, the textures, the counterpoint, it's all so wonderful!


Mahler was become more and more popular in recent years in Hong Kong(I'm live in Hong Kong).
For me, Mahler bring me from classical to contemporary.

Mahler maybe the the hardest one to get into of all the tonal composers by his complex structure, and the length(Of course also the others character). I love his 8, but also the 2,6,8 & 9. 
After I get into Mahler, I have to try the Prokofiev. 
Prokofiev's melody were more complex but the development were a bit simple...


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## millionrainbows

I like the long length of Mahler, because it justifies not having to get into Wagner so much. It's like, *"all the aesthetic, chromaticism, dramatic gesture, grandeur, and ridiculous length of Wagner, without any of the guilt."

*You see how that works? If you like Mahler, you're in good company, and politically correct, and don't have to worry about anybody calling you a racist. Mahler just was more suited for the modern world, without all that Wagnerian baggage. "Tastes great, less filling!" Now, I can keep my girlish figure, and experience all the richness and flavor of Wagner.


----------



## Cosmos

millionrainbows said:


> I like the long length of Mahler, because it justifies not having to get into Wagner so much. It's like, *"all the aesthetic, chromaticism, dramatic gesture, grandeur, and ridiculous length of Wagner, without any of the guilt."
> 
> *You see how that works? If you like Mahler, you're in good company, and politically correct, and don't have to worry about anybody calling you a racist. Mahler just was more suited for the modern world, without all that Wagnerian baggage. "Tastes great, less filling!" Now, I can keep my girlish figure, and experience all the richness and flavor of Wagner.


I like Mahler and Wagner...the only reason I lean towards Mahler is that I'm not much of an opera guy. 
I think it's silly to judge people for liking the music of a composer with bad views/opinions

Anyway, listened to the fifth today. Valery Gragiev and the LSO. Perfection


----------



## Vaneyes

Cosmos said:


> I like Mahler and Wagner...the only reason I lean towards Mahler is that I'm not much of an opera guy.
> I think it's silly to judge people for liking the music of a composer with bad views/opinions
> 
> *Anyway, listened to the fifth today. Valery Gragiev and the LSO. Perfection*


If you can, listen to Shipway (RPO) and Bernstein (DG) M5s, and tell me what you think. :tiphat:


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## millionrainbows

Cosmos said:


> I like Mahler and Wagner...the only reason I lean towards Mahler is that I'm not much of an opera guy.
> *I think it's silly to judge people for liking the music of a composer with bad views/opinions
> *
> Anyway, listened to the fifth today. Valery Gragiev and the LSO. Perfection


That aside, I feel that a sort of 'operatic grandeur' comparable to Wagner is part of the attraction to Mahler. Mahler himself hemmed and hawed about the possible narrative content of his symphonies, and even provided guides for this, rescinding them later. There is a 'dramatic narrative' in Mahler, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Many of the contrasts of themes and moods seem to be dealing with love and tragedy.

I consider the 5th, 6th, and 7th to be a triptych, with the 6th as the centerpiece. It's the best of the three, and Schoenberg/Webern are at the head of that parade.

I just finished 2 versions of the *Fourth; *now I'm listening to the *Second.* I consider 1, 2, 3, and 4 to be a part of a group as well. In fact, I think the First and Second are all one gigantic symphony.

Mahler did a lot of revising and shuffling. The song *Urlicht,* as the 'fourth' movement of* Symphony No. 2,* seems to be an insertion of expedience to me; it strikes me as just a song he stuck in there.

I like that dissonant chord & its resolution, at about 14:00 in of the first movement. I'm sure it freaked a lot of folks out back then.

Then again, Mahler really isn't that radical; *Debussy *walked out on a Mahler symphony, saying it was 'reactionary.'

So who, really, is this 'poetic hero' who is 'resurrected' in the Second? It's not Christ, although Mahler had converted to Catholicism by this time. In fact, I can't recall much mention of Christ in his content. Is the hero Mahler? Is this hero symbolic of a larger element? Probably. I think the main difference between Mahler and Wagner is Wagner's lack of subtlety. They are probably both more concerned with 'Man' than they are with God or religion, each for his own reasons. I think that religion is as much to do with Man as it is with God or afterlife.


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## hpowders

What hero? The guy was neurotic about the meaning of life and what happens after we die; a Woody Allen without the sense of humor. These questions concern most of us today; same as then. What the hell does it all mean? What purpose is all of this? Do we live after we die? Is there really a heaven?
I don't see him as a hero at all.


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## millionrainbows

hpowders said:


> What hero? The guy was neurotic about the meaning of life and what happens after we die; a Woody Allen without the sense of humor. These questions concern most of us today; same as then. What the hell does it all mean? What purpose is all of this? Do we live after we die? Is there really a heaven?
> I don't see him as a hero at all.


I was referring to the text that Mahler used, which concerns a poetic hero. As far as the question of afterlife, religion is supposed to answer those questions. I don't think *Mahler* was a particularly religious man, as it turns out. He converted to Catholicism as an expedience, and there is no mention of Christ in his content; in fact, he removed mentions of it. Like Beethoven, he had a spirituality which was of the 'everyman' sort, a kind of secular humanism. I'm listening now to the Third Symphony, and he's using a quote from _Thus Spake Zarathustra _by *Nietzsche.* I suppose* that's *the hero he's talking about: *Man. *Got any better ideas?


----------



## Jonathan Wrachford

So are Mahler's Symphonies probably the most popular kind of his music?


----------



## omega

westknife said:


> I started with the 6th (the recent Abbado recording) and it hooked me immediately


I would advise anyone who loves the 6th G. Sinopoli's recording. He plays it slower than usual (especially the _Andante_, 20 wonderful minutes, and the _Finale_, 35 minutes), and the atmosphere is all the more tensed and dramatic.


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## Itullian

Jonathan Wrachford said:


> So are Mahler's Symphonies probably the most popular kind of his music?


Yes ..................


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## violadude

Jonathan Wrachford said:


> So are Mahler's Symphonies probably the most popular kind of his music?


Along with his lieder, they are practically the only kind of his music!

Also an early piano quartet.

Well, one movement of an early piano quartet.


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## Mahlerian

violadude said:


> Along with his lieder, they are practically the only kind of his music!
> 
> Also an early piano quartet.
> 
> Well, one movement of an early piano quartet.


There's a bit of an unfinished Scherzo, too, but it's just a fragment.

And Das Klagende Lied. Don't forget his sole cantata.


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## millionrainbows

*Mahler* dropped the reference to Christ in* Klopstock's *'Resurrection' verses. The old Latin 'hymn to the creator',_ 'Veni, Creator Spiritus',_ used in the Eighth, was given a very extroverted musical setting, far removed from the liturgical origin. It reminds me of *Beethoven's* use of Schiller's _'Ode to Joy' _in the Ninth. In each case, a specifically Christian message is turned into a universal hymn for everyman.


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## millionrainbows

DaDirkNL said:


> Agreed. Mahler was for me, of all the tonal composers, the hardest one to get into. He is also without a doubt the most rewarding composer to get into. The beautiful melodies, the textures, the counterpoint, it's all so wonderful!


*Dare I say it? *Perhaps it's not really the sheer_ *length* _of* Mahler's *symphonies that is a possible problem; it's the way they are assembled. (Ironically, Boulez was criticized elsewhere for being a 'constructor' rather than a 'composer.')

Mahler didn't sit down in his little cottage in the woods and write-out the symphonies sequentially; he was composing short voice & orchestra songs from the *Wunderhorn* texts, as inspiration struck him. Was he really a song writer rather than a true symphonist? This may be where his true passions lay, in lieder, and why it is hard to get a grasp of the symphonies. He was a working conductor, and pressed for time, as well.

Mahler did a lot of revision, and the symphonies, esp. the first four, are pieced-together from smaller lieder-based compositions, to the extent that they present as one large symphony; no doubt providing conceptual continuity from symphony to symphony, but at the same time obscuring their individuality; where does one symphony begin, and the next one start? For anyone, even as Bruno Walter revealed, this can be a giant confusion, a huge, sprawling continuous series of symphonic movements, each leading into the other.


----------



## Mahlerian

millionrainbows said:


> *Dare I say it? *Perhaps it's not really the sheer_ *length* _of* Mahler's *symphonies that is a possible problem; it's the way they are assembled. (Ironically, Boulez was criticized elsewhere for being a 'constructor' rather than a 'composer.')


I think that was actually Boulez speaking about Messiaen....


----------



## Morimur

I didn't find Mahler at all difficult to get into. I was hooked from the beginning when I listened to his first symphony (not his greatest but a thrilling piece, regardless.)


----------



## millionrainbows

Lope de Aguirre said:


> I didn't find Mahler at all difficult to get into. I was hooked from the beginning when I listened to his first symphony (not his greatest but a thrilling piece, regardless.)


I think Mahler is easy to get into initially, but to* really *get a sense of what he's doing takes a little study, don't you think?

This reminds me of that old criticism of *Beethoven's Ninth *that keeps cropping up. Nobody ever complains about Beethoven, except for this finale. *"Too simplistic, doesn't fit, stuck-on as an afterthought, he ran out of ideas, etc."

*And yet, people seem to have no problem with Mahler's "Hymn" in the Eighth. It's the same thing; an 'everyman' hymn with the Christian elements removed, more secular and 'spiritual' than liturgical. Perhaps Mahler found a way to make this Beethoven/secular humanism thing "fly."


----------



## Morimur

millionrainbows said:


> I think Mahler is easy to get into initially, but to* really *get a sense of what he's doing takes a little study, don't you think?


Yes, of course. At _that_ time (my teens), I was looking at classical music from a purely aesthetic/superficial perspective.


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## Muddy

This is a tremendous performance of Mahler's 2nd. I love the fact that the orchestra is so young.


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## tahnak

Muddy said:


> This is a tremendous performance of Mahler's 2nd. I love the fact that the orchestra is so young.


Yes, I have heard this performance and I am impressed by the force created by Dudamel and his young troupe. He reminds me of Klemperer with his rhythm but has played with more vigour.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I like the 7th symphony best. Haven't heard it in a while though. Would be nice to see it in performance again one day.


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## Sudonim

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I like the 7th symphony best. Haven't heard it in a while though. Would be nice to see it in performance again one day.


CoAG! You're back!


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## hpowders

The 7th is probably the most difficult Mahler symphony to conduct.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

1-6 Abbado
6-9 Boulez


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## DeepR

I'm still getting into the 6th, I like the first movement now, but the others not so much (yet)... So neurotic and overblown. Maybe this just isn't my day to listen to this kind of music.


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## Mahlerian

DeepR said:


> I'm still getting into the 6th, I like the first movement now, but the others not so much (yet)... *So neurotic and overblown.* Maybe this just isn't my day to listen to this kind of music.


What do you mean by neurotic and overblown? What do you mean by _this_ kind of music?

The 6th is one of Mahler's most concise works. As another great composer said, there is not a superfluous note in the whole piece.


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## DeepR

Mahlerian said:


> What do you mean by neurotic and overblown? What do you mean by _this_ kind of music?
> 
> The 6th is one of Mahler's most concise works. As another great composer said, there is not a superfluous note in the whole piece.


I believe you, it just didn't work for me today, on second listening to the entire symphony. I had to listen to the first movement 4-5 times before it finally clicked. Only then I wanted to listen to the rest.

The whole piece is so heavily dramatic, with a lot of anguish. It feels rather forced with its enormous dynamics, big build ups and big bangs that seemingly come out of nowhere. That's why it comes across as neurotic and overblown. One thing is for sure, this one is not easy to get into for me. 
Yet I know that if I persevere and keep listening, there's a big chance I'll appreciate it more. My memory serves me well and things often start making sense in the long run.


----------



## DeepR

Muddy said:


> This is a tremendous performance of Mahler's 2nd. I love the fact that the orchestra is so young.


I agree. The final part is very slow, but I learned to appreciate both a slower and a faster approach to this finale (such as Abaddo with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra).


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## Mahlerian

DeepR said:


> The whole piece is so heavily dramatic, with a lot of anguish. It feels rather forced with its enormous dynamics, big build ups and big bangs that seemingly come out of nowhere. That's why it comes across as neurotic and overblown. One thing is for sure, this one is not easy to get into for me.


I don't understand how these remarks apply more to Mahler's 6th than Beethoven's 5th. Sure, Mahler's orchestra is bigger, his idiom is different, and the scale is larger, but doesn't Beethoven's work also feature sudden shifts of mood and dynamics and large-scale build ups?

I really don't want this to come across as a criticism of you personally, because I know it's a difficult piece to get a full grasp of (it took me a while too!), but I see these words used as if they were reasons why Mahler's music is inept or poorly constructed, when it's anything but.

Yes it's dramatic, but there's a lot more than simply anguish. There's an entire range of emotions in every movement.

Yes it's long, but it's not overblown, because the length is absolutely necessary for the scope of the themes and the musical ideas.

Yes there are sudden shifts, but they don't come out of nowhere, and in fact the form, while complex, is perfectly logical.

(Shameless plug for my blog, where I did a full (and not overly technical, I hope!) analysis of the work.)



DeepR said:


> Yet I know that if I persevere and keep listening, there's a big chance I'll appreciate it more. My memory serves me well and things often start making sense in the long run.


I'm sure that if you persevere, you will, and I wish you many long hours of enjoyment.


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## Vaneyes

Mahler certainly had reason(s) to be neurotic. Thankfully, his discipline was able to keep the creative ship mostly on course. Keen observation and analysis allowed him to convey neuroses, rather than be swallowed up by it. Good or "light" would always prevail.

Lenny eloquently spoke on Gustav's psyche...

http://www.leonardbernstein.com/cond_mahler.htm


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## techniquest

Muddy said:


> This is a tremendous performance of Mahler's 2nd. I love the fact that the orchestra is so young.


I agree - a wonderful performance. However, after this event occured (BBC Proms, 2011), there were rather a lot of very sniffy reviews both formal e.g newspapers, and informal such as online fora. To my non-expert but very appreciative ears, this was as near a perfect performance of the Resurrection as I've ever heard.


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## Vaneyes

As linked, a review for a 90-minute M7? Ouch! Reminds me of a concert I attended, with Gunter Herbig conducting the work. It never got off the ground.

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_concert_review.php?id=11945


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## Vaneyes

Press release for *2020 Mahler Festival* in Amsterdam (pdf).

http://www.concertgebouw.nl/sites/c...emanager/PB_Mahler_Festival_2020_-ENGLISH.pdf


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## Vaneyes

BBC Great Composers: Mahler (film):






2014 Proms:

Jul 20 - Symphony 6 (World Orchestra for Peace/Gergiev)
Jul 30 - Symphony 5 (BBCPO/Mena)
Aug 4 - Symphony 9 (BBCSO/Runnicles)
Aug 16 - Symphony 4 (Tilling/LSO/Haitink)
Aug 25 - Piano Quartet (Schwizgebel/Royal Qt.)
Aug 29 - Symphony 2 (Royal/Stotijn/Swedish RSO & Choir/Philharmonia Chorus/Harding)
Sep 4 - Symphony 1 (BBCSO/Alsop)
Sep 11 - Symphony 3 (Romberger/Leipzig O. & Choirs/Chailly)


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## techniquest

> 2014 Proms:
> 
> Jul 20 - Symphony 6 (World Orchestra for Peace/Gergiev)
> Jul 30 - Symphony 5 (BBCPO/Mena)
> Aug 4 - Symphony 9 (BBCSO/Runnicles)
> Aug 16 - Symphony 4 (Tilling/LSO/Haitink)
> Aug 25 - Piano Quartet (Schwizgebel/Royal Qt.)
> Aug 29 - Symphony 2 (Royal/Stotijn/Swedish RSO & Choir/Philharmonia Chorus/Harding)
> Sep 4 - Symphony 1 (BBCSO/Alsop)
> Sep 11 - Symphony 3 (Romberger/Leipzig O. & Choirs/Chailly)


I'd love the 2nd and 3rd to be televised, but being the BBC the most likely candidates for BBC2 or 4 TV are No.6 (cos it's the World Orchestra for Peace), 9th (cos it's the BBCSO & Runnicles), 4th (cos it's short, relatively easy and it's Haitink) or 1st (cos it's the BBCSO and Alsop).

EDIT: I just found the Proms web page giving the televised concerts this year. I was right about Gergiev/World Orchestra for Peace (6th) and BBCSO/Alsop (1st). However another televised Mahler from the Proms is the 5th (BBCPO/Mena).


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## Vaneyes

Linked, Longstaffe/Presto Classical *Mahler* recording recommendations. Re symphonies, 5 and 9 are good choices, but I think better picks can be made for the rest.:tiphat:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/favourites/1052/Gustav-Mahler


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## elgar's ghost

Vaneyes said:


> Linked, Longstaffe/Presto Classical *Mahler* recording recommendations. Re symphonies, 5 and 9 are good choices, but I think better picks can be made for the rest.:tiphat:
> 
> http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/favourites/1052/Gustav-Mahler


There are some good recommendations there, but it would have been nice had the reviewer picked a full-length Das Klagende Lied, despite the composer's excision of part one (yes, it does go on somewhat, but its inclusion at least means that the story is presented as a whole musical entity). And from a not exactly packed field I'd have to choose Chailly on Decca from the ones I've heard.

As I consider TC's Mahlerian to be both eloquent and authoritative when it comes to the work of the great man I would like to read his opinion (and those of others, of course) on whether or not the revised work is more valid than the original full-length one and if he has any favourite recordings.


----------



## Mahlerian

elgars ghost said:


> As I consider TC's Mahlerian to be both eloquent and authoritative when it comes to the work of the great man I would like to read his opinion (and those of others, of course) on whether or not the revised work is more valid than the original full-length one and if he has any favourite recordings.


Well, since you asked so nicely...

Although Mahler frequently revised the orchestration of all of his works, refining them anew with each performance, there are only a handful of times where he revised the structure of a completed composition. Listening to the original version of the first symphony, for example (or the oldest one we have, at least, as some movements of the first performance materials have been lost), shows a few crucial differences: in addition to the Blumine movement that was later excised, the finale was significantly different. In the original version, the cymbal crash and chord that follows at the beginning of the movement are repeated at the recapitulation, and there was a passage from the development that was replaced with the section with the violas finding their way to the theme in the revision. In all cases, the revision is a definite improvement over the original.

There is also a section in the development of Totenfeier that was removed when it became the first movement of the Symphony No. 2. Also an improvement that helped to tighten up the movement slightly (and made it sound a little less like Bruckner).

Das Klagende Lied is a unique case, in that the revisions amounted to removing almost half of the score. The remainder was completely reorchestrated and some of its wilder moments removed (particularly a bizarre bitonal passage in Part 2 where the orchestra and off-stage band are playing in keys a half step apart). Now, there's no doubt that the original is a bit diffuse, and some of the orchestration is on the impractical side (for the only time in any Mahler work, two tubas are called for). The vocal parts are also quite difficult. So the revision is certainly more refined, which is why the vast majority of performances use the revised versions of the later movements even if they play Waldmaerchen at the beginning.

But this results in a version that Mahler never actually approved of. I think this is part of the reason for Boulez's opting to perform the latter two parts only in his recent recording. It's not a huge issue for me, and I'll listen to the work in any form.

I also enjoy Chailly's recording (one of the few of his Mahler recordings I do enjoy much), and also Tilson Thomas's. Several eminent Mahler conductors never recorded the work, so we don't have any options from Tennstedt or Bernstein. To my knowledge, there are only two recordings of the original version without any revisions whatsoever: Nagano/Halle on Erato, and Jurowski/London Philharmonic on a DVD from Medici Arts. I found the latter excellent, and I recommend it to anyone who wants to hear the work as Mahler originally wrote it. It also comes with fine performances of Wagner's Parsifal Prelude and Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra.


----------



## senza sordino

I am unfamiliar with two of Mahler's symphonies, the third and eighth. I did see the eighth symphony performed by the Vancouver Symphony and chorus, but that was over 20 years ago. 

So these are two symphonies I need to get to know. Any recommendations? 

I enjoy listening to Mahler's symphonies, but it's not background music, it requires my full attention. And I also find I can't listen to his music often. I find that I go a few days to weeks between listening to his music, perhaps because it's so full and rich. It takes that long to digest his music. I like rich cakes, but I don't want them everyday.


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## Crudblud

senza sordino said:


> I am unfamiliar with two of Mahler's symphonies, the third and eighth. I did see the eighth symphony performed by the Vancouver Symphony and chorus, but that was over 20 years ago.
> 
> So these are two symphonies I need to get to know. Any recommendations?
> 
> I enjoy listening to Mahler's symphonies, but it's not background music, it requires my full attention. And I also find I can't listen to his music often. I find that I go a few days to weeks between listening to his music, perhaps because it's so full and rich. It takes that long to digest his music. I like rich cakes, but I don't want them everyday.


Bernstein/NYPO was my go-to 3rd for a long time, but I recently discovered Charles Adler's recording with the Wiener Symphoniker. It's a mono recording from 1951 but the remastering has been done to a very high standard, it is my favourite recording of the many I have heard, even so I'm not sure I'd recommend it for an introductory listen, especially not as I only know it to be released in a pack with fairly mediocre recordings of the 6th (with cuts) and the unfinished 10th. I'd suggest going with Kubelík - for my money the best all-rounder when it comes to Mahler - who has a studio recording and a live recording, both with the Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks, and both very fine indeed.


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## hpowders

Deleted for lack of interest.


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## Mahlerian

senza sordino said:


> I am unfamiliar with two of Mahler's symphonies, the third and eighth. I did see the eighth symphony performed by the Vancouver Symphony and chorus, but that was over 20 years ago.
> 
> So these are two symphonies I need to get to know. Any recommendations?


The famous Eighth is Solti's, but my preference is for Tennstedt's live performance with the London Philharmonic. Boulez is quite competitive as well. I don't think Shaw's, mentioned above, is very good.



senza sordino said:


> I enjoy listening to Mahler's symphonies, but it's not background music, it requires my full attention. And I also find I can't listen to his music often. I find that I go a few days to weeks between listening to his music, perhaps because it's so full and rich. It takes that long to digest his music. I like rich cakes, but I don't want them everyday.


Usually, I don't listen to Mahler more than once a week myself. I know the music well enough that it's always there with me, but besides that, it _is_ very rich and full and demands full attention, even to one who knows it already.


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## Sudonim

senza sordino said:


> I am unfamiliar with two of Mahler's symphonies, the third and eighth. I did see the eighth symphony performed by the Vancouver Symphony and chorus, but that was over 20 years ago.
> 
> So these are two symphonies I need to get to know. Any recommendations?
> 
> I enjoy listening to Mahler's symphonies, but it's not background music, it requires my full attention. And I also find I can't listen to his music often. I find that I go a few days to weeks between listening to his music, perhaps because it's so full and rich. It takes that long to digest his music. I like rich cakes, but I don't want them everyday.


I agree completely with your final paragraph. Love Mahler's symphonies, but need to parcel them out in careful doses.

For the Third (my favorite!), I really like Michael Tilson Thomas' recording. Semyon Bychkov is good, too. Those are both "modern" recordings, so the sound is good (if that's important to you). Of older recordings, I like the classic Horenstein reading (wish someone would remaster and re-release it), as well as Kubelík's studio version (mentioned by Crudblud). I'm sure Kubelík's live version is fine too; I just haven't heard it. I also have yet to hear Bernstein in this symphony, but I have no doubt you can count on him to deliver.

I'm less enamored of the Eighth (which, of course, many people say). Solti's recording seems fine to me, and I also liked what I've heard from Chailly and Abbado. For a slightly uncommon recommendation I might add Wyn Morris/Symphonica of London, but it may be hard to find.

Have you read Tony Duggan's survey of the Mahler symphonies, Senza? I've found it quite a valuable resource.


----------



## arpeggio

senza sordino said:


> I am unfamiliar with two of Mahler's symphonies, the third and eighth. I did see the eighth symphony performed by the Vancouver Symphony and chorus, but that was over 20 years ago.
> 
> So these are two symphonies I need to get to know. Any recommendations?
> 
> I enjoy listening to Mahler's symphonies, but it's not background music, it requires my full attention. And I also find I can't listen to his music often. I find that I go a few days to weeks between listening to his music, perhaps because it's so full and rich. It takes that long to digest his music. I like rich cakes, but I don't want them everyday.


Following neat links that have some great recommendations.

Symphony No. 3:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/Mahler3.htm

I happen to own the Jesus Lopez-Cobos and the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra on Telarc out of the above recommendations.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/mwork_index/mahler_sy3.htm

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=7537&name_role1=1&comp_id=1799&genre=66&bcorder=195H&album_group=5&album_group=5&page_size=100

Symphony No 8

http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/Mahler8.htm

http://www.musicweb-international.com/mwork_index/mahler_sy8.htm

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=7537&name_role1=1&comp_id=1806&genre=66&bcorder=195H&album_group=5

I have a few of the _Eighth_. The only one I have from the above list is the Dudamel on DVD. I like it.

Many great choices.


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## ptr

*3*: John "Glorious" Barbirolli with that Berliner umpaumpaband (Testament) alt, Jasha Horenstein with the London Symphony (Unicorn-Kanchana).

*8*: It still lures me ambivalently, 35 years after encountering the eight for the first time, I strongly advocate Jasha Hornestein's 1959 live version with the London Symphony (BBC Legends), Mahlerian's suggestion about Tennstedt is also a fine choice, especially his live version with London Philharmonic (LPO Live).

/ptr


----------



## nightscape

Has anyone ever attended or heard the chamber version of Mahler's 4th? The Chamber Orchestra of Philadelphia is playing it (along with Verklärte Nacht) in February. It sounds almost too interesting to pass up, but I have no idea what to expect.


----------



## JACE

senza sordino said:


> I am unfamiliar with two of Mahler's symphonies, the third and eighth. I did see the eighth symphony performed by the Vancouver Symphony and chorus, but that was over 20 years ago.
> 
> So these are two symphonies I need to get to know. Any recommendations?


My top choice for the Third would be Rafael Kubelik with the Bavarian Radio SO (DG).


----------



## arpeggio

*Mahler Fourth*



nightscape said:


> Has anyone ever attended or heard the chamber version of Mahler's 4th? The Chamber Orchestra of Philadelphia is playing it (along with Verklärte Nacht) in February. It sounds almost too interesting to pass up, but I have no idea what to expect.


This is the only work I have ever performed by Mahler. To my knowledge it is the smallest orchestra he ever used. He uses the normal strings, harp, 4 flutes, 3 oboes, 3 clarinets, 3 bassoons, trumpets, French horns and percussion. He omitted trombones and tubas. In the last movement there is the soprano solo. We have a small orchestra and had no problem covering all of the parts. A chamber orchestra can easily perform this work in its original instrumentation.


----------



## Vaneyes

senza sordino said:


> I am unfamiliar with two of Mahler's symphonies, the third and eighth. I did see the eighth symphony performed by the Vancouver Symphony and chorus, but that was over 20 years ago.
> 
> So these are two symphonies I need to get to know. Any recommendations?
> 
> I enjoy listening to Mahler's symphonies, but it's not background music, it requires my full attention. And I also find I can't listen to his music often. I find that I go a few days to weeks between listening to his music, perhaps because it's so full and rich. It takes that long to digest his music. I like rich cakes, but I don't want them everyday.


Tovey did M8 in 2010, at QE Theatre.

He was not a stranger to big shows. Article attached re attempt for a Guinness World Record. The horror, the horror, the horror. I experienced neither show.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/a-maestro-scores-in-the-indies/article746927/

JANUARY 30, FEBRUARY 1

Mahler's Symphony No. 8-
Symphony of a Thousand!
Bramwell Tovey conductor
Turid Karlsen soprano
Measha Brueggergosman soprano
Tracy Dahl soprano
Susan Platts mezzo-soprano
Sarah Fryer mezzo-soprano
John Mac Master tenor
Russell Braun baritone
Denis Sedov bass-baritone
Vancouver Bach Choir
Toronto Mendelssohn Choir
Vancouver Bach Children's Chorus

Re M3 recordings, LB (Sony), Horenstein (Unicorn), Nagano (Teldec).

Re M8 recordings, LSO/LB (Sony 1966), Boulez (DG). :tiphat:


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## Vaneyes

Service does Mahler 6. Barbirolli (EMI) and Boulez (DG) recs. should be mentioned, so I do that now. :tiphat:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/jul/15/symphony-guide-mahlers-6th-tom-service


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## DiesIraeCX

I'm new to Mahler, I just started listening to him this month. Really enjoying his symphonies so far, I've only heard symphonies 1, 2, 6, and 9 so far. I can safely say that I like all of them. 

1) M6 (Boulez/VPO)
2) M1 (Kubelik/Bavarian Radio)
3) M2 (Klemperer/Philharmonia)
4) M9 (Karajan/BPO) I really liked it, but I can tell that it's gonna take a few more listens to fully enjoy and appreciate it.


----------



## hpowders

Boulez' recordings of the Mahler symphonies are quite fine. I heard him do the Mahler Third live and it was quite an experience.

I have the Boulez Mahler set and except for a few minor quibbles, it is very fine.


----------



## Avey

Thoughts on *Tilson's* Mahler interpretations? Specifically with the SFS, which I believe are his only Mahler recordings

I enjoy his _Sixth_. Nothing spectacular or extraordinary. Just solid, structured, well-presented. I (on quick comment) prefer it over Boulez.


----------



## Vaneyes

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I'm new to Mahler, I just started listening to him this month. Really enjoying his symphonies so far, I've only heard symphonies 1, 2, 6, and 9 so far. I can safely say that I like all of them.
> 
> 1) M6 (Boulez/VPO)
> 2) M1 (Kubelik/Bavarian Radio)
> 3) M2 (Klemperer/Philharmonia)
> 4) M9 (Karajan/BPO) I really liked it, but I can tell that it's gonna take a few more listens to fully enjoy and appreciate it.


You're off to a good start, D. Trying to keep a different conductor for each work, I'll suggest M3 Bernstein (Sony), M4 Harding (DG), M5 Shipway (RPO), M7 Abbado (DG), M8 Solti (Decca), M10 Ormandy (Sony), DLVDE Tennstedt (EMI).:tiphat:


----------



## Vaneyes

Avey said:


> Thoughts on *Tilson's* Mahler interpretations? Specifically with the SFS, which I believe are his only Mahler recordings
> 
> I enjoy his _Sixth_. Nothing spectacular or extraordinary. Just solid, structured, well-presented. I (on quick comment) prefer it over Boulez.


Oh, noooooo, I think Boulez' is second only to Barbirolli (EMI).


----------



## KenOC

So what about Bruno Walter? Listening to his 9th right now. He seems to know his way around this music pretty well. (Vast understatement intended.)


----------



## Vaneyes

Prom 57 - Mahler 2, w. Harding et al.

Review:

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_prom_review.php?id=12218

Listen:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2014/august-29/15070

Hopefully, we'll have more Mahler recordings soon from Harding.:tiphat:


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Vaneyes said:


> You're off to a good start, D. Trying to keep a different conductor for each work, I'll suggest M3 Bernstein (Sony), M4 Harding (DG), M5 Shipway (RPO), M7 Abbado (DG), M8 Solti (Decca), M10 Ormandy (Sony), DLVDE Tennstedt (EMI).:tiphat:


Hi, Vaneyes, thanks for the suggestions! Since my previous post, I've acquired DLVDE by Reiner (Ludwig, Lewis) and Mahler 4 by George Szell, I've fallen in love with M4! It's one of my favorites now. As for your other suggestions, I'll have to keep those in mind, thanks again.  Although, I might go with Tennstedt for M8.


----------



## Adagietto

*Chamber Orchestra arrangement of Mahler's 9th is available*

*Snippet of the 4th movement*

The arrangement is by Simon, who also arranged the Chamber Orchestra version of Mahler's 4th that has been discussed here.

I'll probably have to wait until I can find a copy on Amazon to get it. I love having different arrangements of my favorite pieces, and Mahler's 9th is my all-time favorite. Hopefully the Piano and Chamber Orchestra arrangement, as well as the Solo Piano arrangement get recorded in the future.


----------



## Divasin

Vaneyes said:


> Prom 57 - Mahler 2, w. Harding et al.
> 
> http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_prom_review.php?id=12218
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2014/august-29/15070
> 
> Thanks for the review link....
> 
> I quite enjoyed the second comment!
> 
> "But the fact that in this concert there was no clapping between movements and no mobiles going off, while the audience was admirably attentive and silent, especially throughout all the key pianissimo passages, proves that Gustav Mahler's music attracts a better class of listener than most Proms,...... "


----------



## schuberkovich

Adagietto said:


> *Chamber Orchestra arrangement of Mahler's 9th is available*
> 
> *Snippet of the 4th movement*
> 
> The arrangement is by Simon, who also arranged the Chamber Orchestra version of Mahler's 4th that has been discussed here.
> 
> I'll probably have to wait until I can find a copy on Amazon to get it. I love having different arrangements of my favorite pieces, and Mahler's 9th is my all-time favorite. Hopefully the Piano and Chamber Orchestra arrangement, as well as the Solo Piano arrangement get recorded in the future.


This is also interesting:


----------



## Vaneyes

Divasin said:


> Vaneyes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prom 57 - Mahler 2, w. Harding et al.
> 
> http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_prom_review.php?id=12218
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2014/august-29/15070
> 
> Thanks for the review link....
> 
> I quite enjoyed the second comment!
> 
> "But the fact that in this concert there was no clapping between movements and no mobiles going off, while the audience was admirably attentive and silent, especially throughout all the key pianissimo passages, proves that Gustav Mahler's music attracts a better class of listener than most Proms,...... "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't care for what I heard of the first movement, and left to do other things. Based on your second movement comment, I'll come back to it.:tiphat:
Click to expand...


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## Vaneyes

Thanks, schuberkovich.

The Mahler Organ Project

http://www.paulsterne.net/#!the-mahler-organ-project/cmzo

Also, from 2012, see post #6. I still haven't found mention of the European one-day Mahler marathon. It may've been a decade or more ago.:tiphat:

http://www.talkclassical.com/18276-current-mahler-obsessive-needs.html


----------



## arpeggio

*Mahler Fourth Chamber Version*

The Mahler Fourth has the smallest orchestra of any of Mahler's Symphonies.

Our community orchestra performed it a few years ago. It was a fantastic experience. It has one of the most amazing contrabassoon parts I have ever played in my life.

We now have this cut down chamber version.

Mahler was a great orchestrator. He was very transparent and much of his symphonies is like playing chamber music. To cut out most of the instruments has turned this Technicolor sound painting into an anemic greyness. The arranger (?) threw out the bassoons and the brass and gives us an accordion?

I seriously doubt that one can many musicians who have actually performed the _Fourth_ who approve of this travesty. I could only stand listening to it for a few seconds.


----------



## hpowders

Recommended: The Mahler Broadcasts-live performances by the NY Philharmonic.

Great performances of the 2nd with Mehta, 3rd with Boulez, 5th with Tennstedt, 7th with Kubelik, 8th with Stokowski and an opportunity to hear Das Lied von der Erde with the great Kathleen Ferrier.


----------



## Crudblud

arpeggio said:


> The arranger (?) threw out the bassoons and the brass and gives us an accordion?


Sorry about that...


----------



## hpowders

For those who love Mahler's 7th Symphony:

Leonard Bernstein
New York Philharmonic
Live performance from 1985

One of Bernstein's most convincing Mahler performances!


----------



## JACE

hpowders said:


> View attachment 50699
> 
> 
> For those who love Mahler's 7th Symphony:
> 
> Leonard Bernstein
> New York Philharmonic
> Live performance from 1985
> 
> One of Bernstein's most convincing Mahler performances!


I've never heard Lenny's DG Mahler Seventh. But I like his earlier M7 (Sony) very much.


----------



## hpowders

JACE said:


> I've never heard Lenny's DG Mahler Seventh. But I like his earlier M7 (Sony) very much.


Try this one if you can. It's superb! You can always pay double the rent next month.


----------



## JACE

hpowders said:


> Try this one if you can. It's superb! You can always pay double the rent next month.


 O.K. I will!


----------



## hpowders

JACE said:


> O.K. I will!


Works for me!! :tiphat:

Could be worse. You could be on a golf or ski forum where expenses can go through the stratosphere!


----------



## Adagietto

I brought up a recording of the Klaus Simon arrangement of Mahler's 9th a week or so ago, conducted by Joolz Gale. There happens to be another recording on Amazon of the same arrangement, conducted by Caleb Young. It is expensive for an MP3 album, but I'll eventually order it.

*Gustav Mahler Symphony No. 9 Arranged By Klaus Simon*


----------



## Guest

Just to confirm that I have gone from Mahlerphobe to Mahlerphile in one effortless bound. Thanks to the Gergiev/World Peace performance of Symphony No. 6 at the Proms this year, I now own two versions (Abbado/Lucerne FO and Jansons/LSO) and blub contentedly at the Andante in both.






What I particularly like is the way the movement seems to have reached a quiet and satisfying conclusion after pleasant meandering round the orchestra (Sibelius would stop at that point) but moves into another gear and reaches two tremendous climaxes in the last few minutes before a slightly melancholic but resigned ending. Is this what _Romantic _music is about, or is it just romantic?

And does anyone else tear up at this (and more than at the Adagietto in the 5th?) My wife said she had to come downstairs to see what the noise was - in case I was having a heart attack!


----------



## tdc

MacLeod said:


> And does anyone else tear up at this (and more than at the Adagietto in the 5th?) My wife said she had to come downstairs to see what the noise was - in case I was having a heart attack!


I think the 6th Symphony is after _The Song of the Earth_, Mahler's best composition. The Andante I find especially amazing and one of the most powerful things he composed.


----------



## hpowders

Listen to Number 8.


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> Listen to Number 8.


Will do, though I'm not keen on the choral element and didn't take to it on first hearing in the way I did to the 6th.


----------



## Art Rock

hpowders said:


> Listen to Number 8.


I think that more than any other symphony, his 8th divides the Mahler "fans" - some love it, some don't like it at all. I am in the second group.


----------



## hpowders

Art Rock said:


> I think that more than any other symphony, his 8th divides the Mahler "fans" - some love it, some don't like it at all. I am in the second group.


Just like Beethoven chose the Hammerklavier Sonata as his greatest keyboard work, Mahler chose the Eighth as his greatest symphony.

I agree with both gentlemen.

Both works, bring me to a level rarely achieved by anything else except perhaps Bach WTC, Book One.


----------



## Mahlerian

MacLeod said:


> And does anyone else tear up at this (and more than at the Adagietto in the 5th?) My wife said she had to come downstairs to see what the noise was - in case I was having a heart attack!


Contrary to Death in Venice, the Adagietto of the Fifth is not intended to be melancholy or sad. The Sixth's Andante is a far more unsettled movement and yes, I find the ending exceptionally moving. That moment where it moves from C-sharp minor of the climax to B major, which wrenches back into E-flat just at the high point of the melody has an unworldly beauty about it.


----------



## hpowders

Mahlerian said:


> Contrary to Death in Venice, the Adagietto of the Fifth is not intended to be melancholy or sad. The Sixth's Andante is a far more unsettled movement and yes, I find the ending exceptionally moving. That moment where it moves from C-sharp minor of the climax to B major, which wrenches back into E-flat just at the high point of the melody has an unworldly beauty about it.


The Adagietto? Depends who performs it: Seems Leonard Bernstein would disagree with you, but Pierre Boulez would support your view!


----------



## Mahlerian

hpowders said:


> The Adagietto? Depends who performs it: Seems Leonard Bernstein would disagree with you, but Pierre Boulez would support your view!


Mahler's own rendition took under 8 minutes. Of course, one is allowed a different interpretation, but I think that taking it as a Largo goes against the spirit of the movement.


----------



## Skilmarilion

Mahlerian said:


> Contrary to Death in Venice, the Adagietto of the Fifth is not intended to be melancholy or sad.


Yes, and yet this kind of narrative seems to accompany the piece seemingly everywhere. I actually saw Death in Venice recently and thought that the overuse of the _adagietto_ was near distasteful.

Re: Mahler slow movements, my top 3 would be: 6th movement of the 3rd, 1st & 4th movements of the 9th. But really, they are all sublime.


----------



## hpowders

Mahlerian said:


> Mahler's own rendition took under 8 minutes. Of course, one is allowed a different interpretation, but I think that taking it as a Largo goes against the spirit of the movement.


I would call Bernstein and let him know, but his phone number at the Dakota has been disconnected.


----------



## Markbridge

Just listened to the beginning of the Gergiev performance of the 6th from this August. The first thing I noticed is that Gergiev has certainly slowed his tempo from his 2008 performance (and to the better, in my opinion). Check out the opening from the earlier perfornace here: 



. I think he is much better in the new performance.


----------



## Markbridge

Have to throw my 2 cents in regarding the Andante from the 6th. I really do think it is a more emotional movement than the Adagietta from the 5th. It nearly brings me to tears each time I listen to it. My favorite reading is Solti's with the Chicago. Who would think Solti could be so emotional?!


----------



## Polyphemus

If that inveterate snob Lenny would deign to answer the phone to anyone then perhaps the V C of the D.P.C. may indeed be the lucky mortal.
However back to basics his adagietto in an otherwise fine Fifth totally distorts the shape of the work. 11 mins plus where 9 is a good average.
I include an excerpt from a BBC article on the subject (Hope they dont mind.)

"Two conductors who were close to Mahler and who both knew his working practices very well were Willem Mengelberg5 and Bruno Walter6. Both men later made recordings of the symphony, and we therefore have their respective timings:

Willem Mengelberg (19267) - 7 minutes, (1939) - 8' 20"
Bruno Walter (1938) - almost 8 minutes, (1947) - 7' 40"
More recently, we have recordings made by, amongst others:

Simon Rattle (2002) - 9' 30"
John Barbirolli (1969) - 9' 50"
Riccardo Chailly (1997) - 10' 15"
Bernard Haitink (1970) - 10' 30"
Leonard Bernstein (1987) - 11'
Herbert von Karajan (1973) - 11' 50"
However, the longest recorded performance known to this Researcher is Bernard Haitink's second recording, made in 1988, at a massive 13' 55". This gives us a range of timings of between seven and almost 14 minutes."
The address for the full article is 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ptop/plain/A14611394 (its worth reading for the interested.


----------



## Mahlerian

We also have approximate timings based on an observer of Mahler's rehearsals, which give us an idea of what he had in mind.

It's fine that people do different things with the music, and actually, Bernstein's whole DG Vienna Fifth is slowed down considerably (like Tennstedt), so it doesn't necessarily distort the proportions of the work. But we should be aware that much of our perception of this movement as being "melancholy" or "sad" comes from a kind of interpretation Mahler would not have imagined.


----------



## Guest

Mahlerian said:


> Contrary to Death in Venice, the Adagietto of the Fifth is not intended to be melancholy or sad. The Sixth's Andante is a far more unsettled movement and yes, I find the ending exceptionally moving. That moment where it moves from C-sharp minor of the climax to B major, which wrenches back into E-flat just at the high point of the melody has an unworldly beauty about it.


I have Chailly's 1997 recording with the Concertgebouw of the 5th and it certainly did not sound anything like as overladen as the movie version (Franco Mannino/Orchestra of the Academy of Saint Cecilia).

As for the climactic moment you describe, I assume that's at around 34:55 in the Gergiev? It's the second high point for me, but I'm already wobbling when the horns are climbing up and the cow bells enter again.

Why is that so affecting - is it the combination of the key change at the top of the melody, or is it the specific combination of keys?


----------



## hpowders

Mahlerian said:


> We also have approximate timings based on an observer of Mahler's rehearsals, which give us an idea of what he had in mind.
> 
> It's fine that people do different things with the music, and actually, Bernstein's whole DG Vienna Fifth is slowed down considerably (like Tennstedt), so it doesn't necessarily distort the proportions of the work. But we should be aware that much of our perception of this movement as being "melancholy" or "sad" comes from a kind of interpretation Mahler would not have imagined.


Who was it who said something like "composers are the worst conductors of their own music". ? I know I read an approximation of that somewhere.


----------



## Mahlerian

MacLeod said:


> As for the climactic moment you describe, I assume that's at around 34:55 in the Gergiev? It's the second high point for me, but I'm already wobbling when the horns are climbing up and the cow bells enter again.
> 
> Why is that so affecting - is it the combination of the key change at the top of the melody, or is it the specific combination of keys?


Right. It hits B major at 34:08 and returns to the home key of E-flat at 34:54.

With things like this, the technical explanation doesn't suffice to show why it works. You could find something written to a formula based on this movement that would be missing everything that makes it great.

Which is to say that it's everything: the key change (which is in turn related to the melody/harmony of the movement), the melody climaxing at that exact point, the fact that we move from chromaticism to diatonicism (5 bars in a row with no accidentals), the orchestration including bass drum roll, and all of this at once!

The earlier high point is where the minor-key melody that had been heard several times earlier is finally brought out into the open, and instead of plaintive as earlier, it reveals itself as something menacing and terrifying (that shuddering chord at 33:39 in particular). Then this slides into the major, as I mentioned, and there's something very surprising about the way the music suddenly seems to be floating at that moment that I can't quite place.


----------



## Mahlerian

hpowders said:


> Who was it who said something like "composers are the worst conductors of their own music". ? I know I read an approximation of that somewhere.


Well, very few composers are conductors of the caliber of Mahler!


----------



## joen_cph

Skilmarilion said:


> Yes, and yet this kind of narrative seems to accompany the piece seemingly everywhere. I actually saw Death in Venice recently and thought that the overuse of the _adagietto_ was near distasteful.


Agree on most negative views on that movie - it´s terrible IMO, and with a poor sound too, including ridiculous dubbing of water effects etc.


----------



## hpowders

Mahlerian said:


> Well, very few composers are conductors of the caliber of Mahler!


Bernstein was.

However, it's different when a composer conducts his own music rather than the usual Beethoven and Brahms. It took Leonard Bernstein to reveal what I consider to be the definitive performance of Appalachian Spring. Aaron Copland couldn't do it.

I'm sure there are conductors today who could out-Mahler Mahler in his own music.

Boulez against Mahler in a conducting contest? Wish I could be there.


----------



## Mahlerian

hpowders said:


> Bernstein was. Copland wasn't.


But Bernstein wasn't a composer of the caliber of Mahler, so...


----------



## hpowders

Mahlerian said:


> But Bernstein wasn't a composer of the caliber of Mahler, so...


Bernstein was a quality composer. The music from West Side Story is as good as it gets, IMO.


----------



## Skilmarilion

hpowders said:


> I'm sure there are conductors today who could out-Mahler Mahler in his own music.


What is this based on?


----------



## hpowders

Skilmarilion said:


> What is this based on?


Pure conjecture. Neither Mahlerian nor I have ever gone to a concert where Mahler was conducting, nor do we have recordings of any complete Beethoven, Brahms or Mahler symphonies from which to judge. All we know is what we read. He seemed to be a big deal conductor from what's been written.


----------



## nightscape

hpowders said:


> It took Leonard Bernstein to reveal what I consider to be the definitive performance of Appalachian Spring. Aaron Copland couldn't do it.


No? Copland has a great version of Appalachian Spring with Boston.


----------



## Polyphemus

hpowders said:


> Bernstein was a quality composer. The music from West Side Story is as good as it gets, IMO.


As was On The Town and his other theatre music. However his 'serious' music left a lot to be desired.


----------



## hpowders

Polyphemus said:


> As was On The Town and his other theatre music. However his 'serious' music left a lot to be desired.


One serious piece of his I like is called "Facsimile". Have you heard it?


----------



## Polyphemus

hpowders said:


> One serious piece of his I like is called "Facsimile". Have you heard it?


Almost certainly on the DGG reissue set I will dig it out and report back.


----------



## nightscape

This has perhaps been answered elsewhere in the thread, if so I apologize, but with someone as detailed and instruction-oriented as Mahler, is there a specific reason why he never included metronome markings? Is it to allow the conductor some modicum of personal freedom? If so, why the obsessive attention in all other areas of the music?


----------



## Mahlerian

I would venture that he didn't want to lock conductors (including himself) in to a single tempo; he was known for his widely varying interpretations of the classics.

The reason for all of the markings on his scores is to get players who didn't understand what he was going for to be able to approximate it (as well as to achieve a finely nuanced balance which the combinations of instruments used by themselves would not support).

Finally, he probably had his own somewhat clear ideas about what a tempo meant, and felt that this was easily enough understood.

(As a side note, I always found Bartok's specification of timings for the movements of his works rather interesting...)


----------



## hpowders

Polyphemus said:


> Almost certainly on the DGG reissue set I will dig it out and report back.


It's not exactly Mahler's Sixth Symphony, but Facsimile is a haunting, pithy work.


----------



## Polyphemus

hpowders said:


> It's not exactly Mahler's Sixth Symphony, but Facsimile is a haunting, pithy work.


Did a check on my CD's and I seem to have everything else (even 'A Quiet Place' and I don't like or listen to opera) but it was not there. I may have it on one of my Hard Drives. If not I will get it because if you recommend it must worthwhile. We seem to have similar musical tastes in a lot of areas. If its not to my taste it can join the rather large 'oops' section. I will keep you informed.


----------



## Guest

Mahlerian said:


> Right. It hits B major at 34:08 and returns to the home key of E-flat at 34:54.
> 
> With things like this, the technical explanation doesn't suffice to show why it works.


You're right, and your identification of the various elements that contribute are very helpful. I know I've asked this before, but it is something that endless fascinates: why is it that some pieces provoke a physiological reaction in the listener which is so much stronger than a mere liking? I've never heard this symphony before, I actually had a dislike (irrational) of the composer based on non-musical judgements about the only symphony I knew, and yet it had a remarkable effect. Even if it could be claimed that I was in a susceptible mood at the time of listening, or that I have a pre-disposition to sentimental reactions, I don't believe that's sufficient explanation.

Anyway, on with the Mahler. Last night I caught up with one of the Proms performances I'd recorded.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2014/september-04/15098

I nodded off briefly during the Adams sax concerto, but had no difficulty staying awake during Mahler's Symphony No. 1. What I want to know is why you've all been keeping this music from me all this time?! Why does he have such a poor publicist that he is not noted for the humour stamped all over this work. I loved it!


----------



## Mahlerian

MacLeod said:


> You're right, and your identification of the various elements that contribute are very helpful. I know I've asked this before, but it is something that endless fascinates: why is it that some pieces provoke a physiological reaction in the listener which is so much stronger than a mere liking? I've never heard this symphony before, I actually had a dislike (irrational) of the composer based on non-musical judgements about the only symphony I knew, and yet it had a remarkable effect. Even if it could be claimed that I was in a susceptible mood at the time of listening, or that I have a pre-disposition to sentimental reactions, I don't believe that's sufficient explanation.


I think Mahler tends to affect people particularly strongly. I can point to the things I love about his music, but even then I can't say just why it resonates so much. There's a quality of freedom and dialogue to it that makes it seem more open than most other music.



MacLeod said:


> Anyway, on with the Mahler. Last night I caught up with one of the Proms performances I'd recorded.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2014/september-04/15098
> 
> I nodded off briefly during the Adams sax concerto, but had no difficulty staying awake during Mahler's Symphony No. 1. What I want to know is why you've all been keeping this music from me all this time?! Why does he have such a poor publicist that he is not noted for the humour stamped all over this work. I loved it!


There's a lot of the uncanny, the bizarre, and the humorous in Mahler...if you know where to look!

I decline the role of publicist for now, though. :lol:


----------



## hpowders

Well I'm about to start playing the entire Boulez Mahler cycle. Just wanted to give appropriate warning.


----------



## Polyphemus

hpowders said:


> Well I'm about to start playing the entire Boulez Mahler cycle. Just wanted to give appropriate warning.


Played the 'Facsimile', you were right. 
The music is super very reminiscent of early Lenny and he was indeed to use some of the devices in this piece in later pieces, On The Town springs to mind and a few future nods to W S S.
As I said I was not familiar with this piece so I will get one of Lenny's own recordings of it (DGG ?), so a big thanks for that.

Enjoy Boulez Mahler, i know i did.


----------



## hpowders

Polyphemus said:


> Played the 'Facsimile', you were right.
> The music is super very reminiscent of early Lenny and he was indeed to use some of the devices in this piece in later pieces, On The Town springs to mind and a few future nods to W S S.
> As I said I was not familiar with this piece so I will get one of Lenny's own recordings of it (DGG ?), so a big thanks for that.
> 
> Enjoy Boulez Mahler, i know i did.


Yes. I find Facsimile to be a hauntingly beautiful piece. Glad you like it too.

And yes, I consider this to be "serious classical music".

Thanks! I can't wait to get to 5-8, the heart of the symphonies, but I'll show restraint and work my way up from number one!


----------



## hpowders

I think if there was no Mahler, I may have stopped listening to classical music. He is for me "the glue" that holds it all together and keeps me coming back for more; not just for Mahler, but for everything else.
I hope this makes some sense.
Mahler hits the "human nerve" better than any composer who ever lived, in my opinion.


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> Well I'm about to start playing the entire Boulez Mahler cycle. Just wanted to give appropriate warning.


Does that include the relatively new recording of the Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Ruckert Lieder, and Kindertotenlieder with Quasthoff, Urmana, and von Otter? I love that recording - one of my favorite Boulez Mahler recordings. I also love his recording of the 6th.


----------



## Mahlerian

DrMike said:


> Does that include the relatively new recording of the Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Ruckert Lieder, and Kindertotenlieder with Quasthoff, Urmana, and von Otter? I love that recording - one of my favorite Boulez Mahler recordings. I also love his recording of the 6th.


It does. The DG Boulez Mahler box includes everything he recorded for them, including the early version of the first movement of the Second, "Totenfeier", and his recording of the 2-movement revised version of Das Klagende Lied.


----------



## hpowders

Anyhow, Mahler 1 down; tomorrow No. 2 with Boulez.


----------



## Bogdan

hpowders said:


> Well I'm about to start playing the entire Boulez Mahler cycle. Just wanted to give appropriate warning.


I would get a triangle and play along


----------



## Itullian

Hey Gustav,

A little more pithy please.


----------



## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> Anyhow, Mahler 1 down; tomorrow No. 2 with Boulez.


One-a-day Iceman. Today must be 6.


----------



## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> One-a-day Iceman. Today must be 6.


Been there, done that. Today is Mahler 7 with Boulez.


----------



## hpowders

The only Boulez Mahler symphony that I don't have is Mahler 9 and I ordered it a few days ago, so I may have to play Mahler 8 very, very, sloooooowly.


----------



## Mahlerian

hpowders said:


> The only Boulez Mahler symphony that I don't have is Mahler 9 and I ordered it a few days ago, so I may have to play Mahler 8 very, very, sloooooowly.


He did a great Mahler 9, so you're in for a treat when it arrives!


----------



## Vaneyes

I don't think Boulez gets the measure of M9 with NYPO or CSO. Pretty surfacy stuff, that doesn't dig deep enough. Some of the Chicago brass sounds downright clumsy. Just sayin'.


----------



## hpowders

Mahlerian said:


> He did a great Mahler 9, so you're in for a treat when it arrives!


Hope so. Thanks!


----------



## hpowders

Boulez' Mahler Eighth, so frustrating! Second nachtmusik played sooooo fast. Andante amoroso is the marking. What was Boulez thinking? Hope he doesn't pull this kind of stuff in the Mahler 9.


----------



## Mahlerian

hpowders said:


> Boulez' Mahler Eighth, so frustrating! Second nachtmusik played sooooo fast. Andante amoroso is the marking. What was Boulez thinking? Hope he doesn't pull this kind of stuff in the Mahler 9.


Well, the finale is faster than most at 21.5 minutes, but it's still slower than Bruno Walter's at about 19.


----------



## hpowders

Mahlerian said:


> Well, the finale is faster than most at 21.5 minutes, but it's still slower than Bruno Walter's at about 19.


And his first movement is slower than most? I had a Bruno Walter/Columbia Symphony performance of the Mahler 9th and was bored with it after hearing Bernstein-the former seemed so straightforward and "unemotional". Seemed like Walter was setting the stage for Pierre Boulez. However, I'm more in synch at this time with Walter and Boulez in Mahler, though I still love Bernstein too.


----------



## Mahlerian

hpowders said:


> And his first movement is slower than most?


On the slower side of average at 29.5 minutes.

My favorite Mahler conductor is Tennstedt, who loved slow tempos and bringing out the emotional nuance of every phrase, but I am glad that I can enjoy Boulez's take as well.


----------



## hpowders

Mahlerian said:


> On the slower side of average at 29.5 minutes.
> 
> My favorite Mahler conductor is Tennstedt, who loved slow tempos and bringing out the emotional nuance of every phrase, but I am glad that I can enjoy Boulez's take as well.


Have you heard Tennstedt's live performance of Mahler 5 with the NY Philharmonic? Best I've ever heard.


----------



## KenOC

Has Klemperer's Mahler been commented on? Any thoughts?


----------



## Mahlerian

KenOC said:


> Has Klemperer's Mahler been commented on? Any thoughts?


His Mahler 2 is a classic. He got his start in conducting though Mahler, conducting the off-stage band in a performance of that exact symphony, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Sudonim

KenOC said:


> Has Klemperer's Mahler been commented on? Any thoughts?


The only one of his I've heard is the 2nd, and that was a while back. Need another listen.

His version of the 7th is famously (or infamously) slow, which seems to puzzle most listeners that I've read. On the other hand, I've read one or two who love it. I''d love to hear it (which I know I will someday, given my obsessive purchasing).

EDIT: Duh. I've also heard his 4th and Das Lied. And love them both.

Back to the Adagietto for a second, it isn't just _Death in Venice_ that created the "sad" reputation. It probably started when Bernstein conducted it at JFK's funeral. Don't know if that rendition was recorded, but I can imagine that Lenny wrung all the emotion out of it he could.


----------



## hpowders

Klemperer SLOW? What a shock!!!


----------



## Itullian

hpowders said:


> Klemperer SLOW? What a shock!!!


Expansive ..................


----------



## hpowders

Itullian said:


> Expansive ..................


I find his Missa Solemnis just about perfect. Also, a great Fidelio.


----------



## Itullian

hpowders said:


> I find his Missa Solemnis just about perfect. Also, a great Fidelio.


I like the slow, soulful guys.

Klemperer, Walter, Giulini, Celibidache, Bernstein, etc.
Just my taste I guess.


----------



## hpowders

Itullian said:


> I like the slow, soulful guys.
> 
> Klemperer, Walter, Giulini, Celibidache, Bernstein, etc.
> Just my taste I guess.


Bernstein was fast as a young conductor but became slow and mannered by the time he conducted the Vienna Philharmonic-not all performances-but many.


----------



## Itullian

hpowders said:


> Bernstein was fast as a young conductor but became slow and mannered by the time he conducted the Vienna Philharmonic-not all performances-but many.


That's true in some cases, but always soulful.


----------



## hpowders

Well, when I want Mahler played with a lot of emotion I have my Bernstein CD's.

When I just want to hear the music played straight, I have Boulez.

It's nice to have the choice! 

I prefer Bernstein in Mahler 4, 6 and 7; Boulez in Mahler 1, 3, 5, 8 and 9.

I will take Zubin Mehta in a live NY Philharmonic performance for Mahler 2.


----------



## Itullian

hpowders said:


> Well, when I want Mahler played with a lot of emotion I have my Bernstein CD's.
> 
> When I just want to hear the music played straight, I have Boulez.
> 
> It's nice to have the choice!
> 
> I prefer Bernstein in Mahler 4, 6 and 7; Boulez in Mahler 1, 3, 5, 8 and 9.
> 
> I will take Zubin Mehta in a live NY Philharmonic performance for Mahler 2.


Your more of a Mahler aficionado than I am so I am sure they're good.

In addition to Lenny's cycles , I have Chailly's, for the magnificent sound 
and the Kubelik for a more neutral approach.


----------



## hpowders

Itullian said:


> Your more of a Mahler aficionado than I am so I am sure they're good.
> 
> In addition to Lenny's cycles , I have Chailly's, for the magnificent sound
> and the Kubelik for a more neutral approach.


Tennstedt was an excellent Mahler conductor too.

Yes. Mahler is one of my all time faves.


----------



## Skilmarilion

Just a heads up for those in the UK -- Sky Arts 2 is showing all the Concertgebouw performances of the Mahler symphonies with one symphony per week (shown on Tuesdays and then again on Fridays). Come next week they'll have reached the 3rd.

_"Between September 2009 and June 2011, the orchestra dedicated itself to a complete Mahler cycle, including Das Lied von der Erde and Deryck Cooke's performing version of the unfinished 10th, conducted by Daniel Harding, Jansons, Iván Fischer, Daniele Gatti, Lorin Maazel, Pierre Boulez, Fabio Luisi, Haitink and Eliahu Inbal."
_

Apologies to those who can't access this -- of course, you may always buy the DVD [at quite a hefty price!].


----------



## hpowders

All we have in Florida is Gatorade.


----------



## elgar's ghost

hpowders said:


> I KNEW I shoulda been born in Britain!! Curses!!!


Not all of us have Sky, though...


----------



## Levanda

Is maybe out of topic but Arte channel which is available on satellite and online got plenty to see concerts and operas.


----------



## MagneticGhost

Skilmarilion said:


> Just a heads up for those in the UK -- Sky Arts 2 is showing all the Concertgebouw performances of the Mahler symphonies with one symphony per week (shown on Tuesdays and then again on Fridays). Come next week they'll have reached the 3rd.
> 
> _"Between September 2009 and June 2011, the orchestra dedicated itself to a complete Mahler cycle, including Das Lied von der Erde and Deryck Cooke's performing version of the unfinished 10th, conducted by Daniel Harding, Jansons, Iván Fischer, Daniele Gatti, Lorin Maazel, Pierre Boulez, Fabio Luisi, Haitink and Eliahu Inbal."
> _
> 
> Apologies to those who can't access this -- of course, you may always buy the DVD [at quite a hefty price!].


They showed all these last year and I HD'd them. They are some very good performances - top conductors. 
The 2nd in particular was brilliant. They completely nailed the last mvt. I'd definitely recommend anyone with Sky Arts 2 to watch them.


----------



## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> Klemperer SLOW? What a shock!!!


And quite often, Giulini...and Lenny in his latter/DG years.

Celi, of course, was glacial in his second life. Not much Mahler from this slowpoke...


----------



## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> And quite often, Giulini...and Lenny in his latter/DG years.
> 
> Celi, of course, was glacial in his second life. Not much Mahler from this slowpoke...


The slowest performance I ever heard from big league artists was the recording of the Brahms First Piano Concerto with Claudio Arrau and Carlo Maria Giulini.


----------



## hpowders

A performance every Mahler lover should hear is the great live performance from 1982 with the NY Philharmonic conducted by Zubin Mehta with Kathleen Battle and Maureen Forrester of the Mahler Symphony No. 2.


----------



## hpowders

Recommended: Symphony #6 with Leonard Bernstein conducting the Vienna Philharmonic, live, 1988.

87 minutes that will leave you emotionally exhausted! :tiphat:


----------



## JACE

hpowders said:


> View attachment 53411
> 
> 
> Recommended: Symphony #6 with Leonard Bernstein conducting the Vienna Philharmonic, live, 1988.
> 
> 87 minutes that will leave you emotionally exhausted! :tiphat:


Yes, I agree wholeheartedly! Bernstein (DG) and Barbirolli (EMI) are my top choices for the M6.


----------



## hpowders

JACE said:


> Yes, I agree wholeheartedly! Bernstein (DG) and Barbirolli (EMI) are my top choices for the M6.


I will have the house to myself for 4 days. I will replay the Bernstein DGG without any distractions. Packs an unbelievable emotional wallop!


----------



## Blancrocher

A site containing interviews about Mahler with distinguished conductors:

http://mahler.universaledition.com/

Their personalities and (sometimes hilarious) biases shine through.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Not sure if I've mentioned, but my favourite Mahler symphony is no. 7.


----------



## Guest

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Not sure if I've mentioned, but my favourite Mahler symphony is no. 7.


Listened to it for the first time this week - Boulez and the Amsterdam Concertgebouw. Noticed that part of the 2nd movement was used for an advert for Castrol GTX!!

I'm going to ask for a complete set of the symphonies for Christmas!


----------



## Skilmarilion

Despite its disappointing finale, I've really come to enjoy the 7th. Its reputation for being the weakest is not deserved.

The _Nachtmusicks_ are very beautiful, the scherzo is captivating, and the 1st movement is Mahler at his best.


----------



## hpowders

Skilmarilion said:


> Despite its disappointing finale, I've really come to enjoy the 7th. Its reputation for being the weakest is not deserved.
> 
> The _Nachtmusicks_ are very beautiful, the scherzo is captivating, and the 1st movement is Mahler at his best.


The Seventh for me is the most difficult Mahler symphony to conduct and make sound convincing. The only performance I have heard that pulls it all together is Leonard Bernstein's second recording of it with the New York Philharmonic. One of the greatest Mahler performances ever.


----------



## Skilmarilion

hpowders said:


> The Seventh for me is the most difficult Mahler symphony to conduct and make sound convincing. The only performance I have heard that pulls it all together is Leonard Bernstein's second recording of it with the New York Philharmonic. One of the greatest Mahler performances ever.


Abbado did an excellent live of the 7th with the Lucerne Festival -- if you've got an hour or so spare, you can enjoy it here right away. :tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

Skilmarilion said:


> Abbado did an excellent live of the 7th with the Lucerne Festival -- if you've got an hour or so spare, you can enjoy it here right away. :tiphat:


Thanks! I will check it out today. I'm not familiar with Abbado, Lucerne, Mahler, but the reviews have been fine. A little more than an hour.


----------



## starthrower

Skilmarilion said:


> Despite its disappointing finale, I've really come to enjoy the 7th. Its reputation for being the weakest is not deserved.
> 
> The _Nachtmusicks_ are very beautiful, the scherzo is captivating, and the 1st movement is Mahler at his best.


I've been listening to Tilson Thomas's recording. I'm a long way from absorbing the whole thing (if that's even possible) but close listening and patience reveals a lot of beautiful music.


----------



## Mahlerian

Skilmarilion said:


> Despite its disappointing finale, I've really come to enjoy the 7th. Its reputation for being the weakest is not deserved.
> 
> The _Nachtmusicks_ are very beautiful, the scherzo is captivating, and the 1st movement is Mahler at his best.


I don't know about the finale being disappointing, but it is certainly bizarre. It's all the more fascinating for that, though.


----------



## Skilmarilion

Mahlerian said:


> I don't know about the finale being disappointing, but it is certainly bizarre. It's all the more fascinating for that, though.


For me it just feels disappointing coming after four great movements before it, with its extravagant _joy de vivre_ coming across as perhaps 'too much'.

I recently came across an interesting essay on the 7th here:
http://mahlerfest.org/mfXVII/notes_enigma.htm


----------



## Mahlerian

Skilmarilion said:


> For me it just feels disappointing coming after four great movements before it, with its extravagant _joy de vivre_ coming across as perhaps 'too much'.
> 
> I recently came across an interesting essay on the 7th here:
> http://mahlerfest.org/mfXVII/notes_enigma.htm


It's not comfortable music, that's for sure. For me, Mahler's music is never comfortable; it's never something that allows one to tune out and relax, but rather demands our attention. Of course it goes without saying that this attention, once paid, is amply rewarded in all of Mahler's works, without exception.


----------



## Zarathustra

Skilmarilion said:


> Despite its disappointing finale, I've really come to enjoy the 7th. Its reputation for being the weakest is not deserved.
> 
> The _Nachtmusicks_ are very beautiful, the scherzo is captivating, and the 1st movement is Mahler at his best.


Seconded. The whole symphony is worthwhile but especially the 1st movement.

What do you consider to be Mahler's weakest symphony?


----------



## hpowders

The seventh. The final movement is below Mahler's usual high standard.


----------



## omega

hpowders said:


> The seventh. The final movement is below Mahler's usual high standard.


Wasn't this done on purpose? I've always thought this terrible mess was Mahler's irony at his highest - and also an expression of hopelessness...


----------



## hpowders

omega said:


> Wasn't this done on purpose? I've always thought this terrible mess was Mahler's irony at his highest - and also an expression of hopelessness...


It could be exactly that. There are some "raspberries" by the flute in the final movement which could be Mahler's usual irony converted into complete sarcasm.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I love the finale. How's it weak? It's like a double - no _triple_ strength coffee followed by two energy drinks and 120kg of weights!


----------



## Mahlerian

omega said:


> Wasn't this done on purpose? I've always thought this terrible mess was Mahler's irony at his highest - and also an expression of hopelessness...


I think it's ironic in a number of ways (references to Meistersinger and all), but Mahler was not one for hopelessness. The tumult of the world (usually a moto perpetuo in Mahler, as in the third movements of the Second and Tenth) was drudgery and pain, perhaps, but there was always (pace Adorno) transcendence in his view. He believed in both the extremes of darkness and light, suffering and joy.


----------



## Skilmarilion

Zarathustra said:


> Seconded. The whole symphony is worthwhile but especially the 1st movement.
> 
> What do you consider to be Mahler's weakest symphony?


Well to answer that would imply that that there are actually 'weak' symphonies by Mahler, which isn't the case. ;-)

I'd say I enjoy the 8th less often than any of the others.


----------



## MagneticGhost

2-3-6-9-5-8-7-4-1

Not Mahler's telephone number. Just my favourite (completed) Mahler symphonies in order at right this moment. 
So I'd say 1 is the weakest which is probably about right as it's his 1st attempt. It's still a wonderful work though..
And I have a good feeling about 8 making a climb over the next few years.


----------



## hpowders

Skilmarilion said:


> Well to answer that would imply that that there are actually 'weak' symphonies by Mahler, which isn't the case. ;-)
> 
> I'd say I enjoy the 8th less often than any of the others.


Funny how different we can be. The 8th is my favorite. I would burn the 7th. (except for the second Bernstein recording)


----------



## Zarathustra

Although all are great, my least favourite is the 3rd. It's too calm and peaceful. 

Whenever I want to listen to it I usually listen to the 10th first and then follow it with the 3rd. The way I see it it's like watching how it all went horribly wrong and then how it was actually meant to be. That way it never fails to bring me to tears.

Then again it does require that you invest more than 2 and a half hours of your life. It's well worth the trip though.


----------



## Skilmarilion

MagneticGhost said:


> 2-3-6-9-5-8-7-4-1
> 
> Not Mahler's telephone number. Just my favourite (completed) Mahler symphonies in order at right this moment.
> So I'd say 1 is the weakest which is probably about right as it's his 1st attempt. It's still a wonderful work though..
> And I have a good feeling about 8 making a climb over the next few years.


Oh gosh, it seems like ranking really is contagious! So ...

9-3-5-4-6-7-2-10-1-8

You put #4 too low down buddy. Better luck next time.


----------



## Skilmarilion

Zarathustra said:


> Although all are great, my least favourite is the 3rd. It's too calm and peaceful.


The gigantic first movement is full of quite dark, ominous music, with a fair few violent outbursts.

In any case, it's a bit disjointed but I think #3 is one of his very finest. One movement you rarely hear praise for is the second (_tempo di menuetto)_, which for me, is absolutely sublime.


----------



## MagneticGhost

^^^^^On certain days - the 3rd takes top prize for me. There's just so much going on. For disjointment (is that a word) - read variety. It surely encapsulates the "Symphony embracing the world" ethic, more than any of the others.

BTW Mr S. Marillion - you put the 2nd way too far down too. Try again


----------



## hpowders

MagneticGhost said:


> ^^^^^On certain days - the 3rd takes top prize for me. There's just so much going on. For disjointment (is that a word) - read variety. It surely encapsulates the "Symphony embracing the world" ethic, more than any of the others.
> 
> BTW Mr S. Marillion - you put the 2nd way too far down too. Try again


I can see Mahler 3. Love the final adagio. Just wish the symphony was a touch shorter. I mean, this one is REALLY long!!


----------



## JACE

Hmm. My list would look something like this:

2 - DLvdE - 9 - 5 - 6 - 1 - 3 - 4 - 7 - 8 

I like the Eighth. I love all the rest.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

7th is still the best for me. My favourite movement from the 5th is the Rondo-Finale, which some think is the weakest but I disagree. Sibelius was rather ambiguous about the 5th altogether. Some claim Sibelius' 4th was a reaction to all that, he once said that 'there's nothing of-the-circus in it'. It's interesting to draw parallels between the last movement of Sibelius' 4th and the first of Mahler's 5th and to point out how different in perspective their slow movements are. He did composed this funeral march, rather uncharacteristic of his style.


----------



## scratchgolf

I'm certain many have been listening to Mahler far longer than I have but, from a beginner's perspective...

2-5-4-9-1-3-6-7-8


----------



## hpowders

Mahler 8 rocks!!!


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Well, since everybody else is ranking, I may as well post mine. 

Take this list with a grain of salt (as you should all my posts!), a couple of them I've only given a single listen, such as #7 and #8. The rest have multiple listens. If I make this list again in a couple months, I'm positive it will be different.

6, 9, 4, 2, 5, 1, 7, 8

I haven't listened to No. 3 yet.  All in due time.


----------



## Guest

Here is my ranking:
1. 2
2. 6
3. DLvdE, 4, 5, 9, 1, 10
4. 3, 8
5. 7


----------



## tdc

For me 7 is like 3 in the sense that it has some of the very best musical moments in it, but I'm not fully convinced it works in its entirety. To a lesser extent I feel the same about 5. 

1. DLVDE
2. 6
3. 9
4. 4
5. 2
6. 3
7. 8
8. 7
9. 10 
10. 1
11. 5


----------



## JACE

A few days ago, I had some issues with my work mobile phone, so I had to remove all of my music files. After it was fixed, I reloaded it with some of my favorites -- including one version of each of Mahler's symphonies. Here's what I put on it:

M1 - Horenstein, LSO (Unicorn)
M2 - Walter, NYPO (Columbia/Sony)
M3 - Kubelik, BRSO (DG)
M4 - Levine, Chicago SO (RCA)
M5 - Kubelik, BRSO (Audite, live)
M6 - Barbirolli, New Philharmonia O (EMI)
M7 - Kubelik, BRSO (DG)
M8 - Tennstedt, LPO (EMI)
DLvdE - Kubelik, BRSO (Audite, live)
M9 - Horenstein, Vienna SO (Vox)


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

7
4
6
1
2
9
DLvdE
3
10
8
5


----------



## techniquest

Ranking is kind of addictive isn't it. Here's my ranking as of today (tomorrow it might be different - though not by much).
2, 3, 8, 1, 7, 6, 4, 9, DLvdE, 5.


----------



## hpowders

My ranking:

1. 8 Most glorious
2. 5
3. 6
4. 9
5. 2
6. 3
7. 4
8. 7
9. 1 Least glorious


----------



## ericdxx

Is there any listing online of which operas mahler choose to perform as COO of the Wien opera?


----------



## Mahlerian

There's a list of his entire repertoire in the appendix of La Grange's biography, volume 4. Someone may have copied it, or you may be able to look at it through Google books.


----------



## Avey

I listened to every Mahler symphony, including _Das Lied von de Erde_, twice over the past two weeks. What changed, how has my opinion altered? Well, if you care at all...

The *Tenth *is so tragically remarkable. Short score, incomplete, whatever -- I can only imagine what this work was like had Mahler had time to orchestrate and revise this fully. Yet, regardless, what Cooke has put together is a gem.

The *Fourth *does not grow old.

The *Fifth * gets better. Especially the _Scherzo_. What a ridiculous movement. I don't even know where to begin. How about the winds, a specific passage later in the movement, that plays for like four measures, and sounds like _nothing Mahler ever wrote_, almost exotic and _Siren_-esque. I dunno, does anyone know what I am talking about? [[ Edit: Disturbing! That is it. That passage, while subtle, fleeting, almost neglible is incredibly disturbing, given how the previous passage sounds and, well, the entire movement! Seriously, this _Scherzo_ is like a symphony of emotions alone. ]]

The *Third *has far too many hidden profound moments that I frustrate myself with repeating over and over until I contemplate the significance of that G, or A_b_, or D. And this _Scherzo_ rivals the former one I discussed. But this one makes sense.

The *Eighth*, obviously, gets a bad rep. What a marvel. The other symphonies got two listens. This one got four. My only regret is that I don't speak German so that I can simply listen and interpret. I have to remind myself with a transcript. Still, doesn't matter. Marvelous. Moving. Etc.

*Das Lied*. First time I was legitimately saddened by the drunken lament in the penultimate movement. Profound stuff. Mahler or _Tang Dynasty_ issues? Doesn't matter. Because Mahler is the only that makes it sound like this.

Nothing beats the *Sixth's *finale.

My thoughts.


----------



## MagneticGhost

Quick Question -
Mahler originally wrote three hammer blows into the sixth symphony finale.
He took the third out because he thought he might be foretelling his own demise.

After his death - have people reinserted the third hammer blow. I've only got one recording and no score so I can't work out if it's there or not.
When my Uni orchestra performed it we had all three - It was all supremely exciting. Our percussionist had a large mallet and a desk if I remember correctly.


----------



## MagneticGhost

I think this performance of the 2nd is spine shiveringly good. 
Mariss Janssons and the Concertgebouw.


----------



## Azol

MagneticGhost said:


> Quick Question -
> Mahler originally wrote three hammer blows into the sixth symphony finale.
> He took the third out because he thought he might be foretelling his own demise.
> 
> After his death - have people reinserted the third hammer blow. I've only got one recording and no score so I can't work out if it's there or not.
> When my Uni orchestra performed it we had all three - It was all supremely exciting. Our percussionist had a large mallet and a desk if I remember correctly.


There is, for example, Zander recording, which presents both original and revised versions of the Finale:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-Benjamin-Philharmonia-Orchestra/dp/B00006EXK1


----------



## Mahlerian

MagneticGhost said:


> Quick Question -
> Mahler originally wrote three hammer blows into the sixth symphony finale.
> *He took the third out because he thought he might be foretelling his own demise.*
> 
> After his death - have people reinserted the third hammer blow. I've only got one recording and no score so I can't work out if it's there or not.
> When my Uni orchestra performed it we had all three - It was all supremely exciting. Our percussionist had a large mallet and a desk if I remember correctly.


The bold part is almost certainly false. It stems from Alma. I think his thoughts on the matter were closer to the idea that each successive blow is supposed to be weaker, and the weakest one of all is the one that fells the "hero" of the work.

Originally, he wrote five into the manuscript (according to La Grange), and then removed two of those before first publication, both of which, again according to La Grange, were more similar in function to the "third", ultimately removed, hammerblow than to the two that remained. The third was removed before the first performance, along with a lightening of the orchestration and the switching of the inner two movements.

To answer your question, I seem to remember that Bernstein also had the third hammerblow in his DG version. It's actually in a different place from where some people seem to think it was.


----------



## millionrainbows

Accuracy, schmaccuracy...I'll always associate those hammer-blows with the incidents in Mahler's life which "felled" him, even if he did not intend this. The death of his daughter was one of them...also, he and his wife felt guilty after he wrote the Kindertotenlieder, since his daughter's death occurred after that, and he felt he might have "prophesied" her death, or tempted fate, in a very human, irrational response to the guilt he felt after her death.

Let's keep the human aspects in; it is part of the heart-wrenching drama of Mahler's life. To me, the weird, dissonant chord in the Tenth is what I call "the heart attack chord."

Okay, so I'm romanticizing the Mahler myth; don't wake me up; let me dream!


----------



## Mahlerian

millionrainbows said:


> Let's keep the human aspects in; it is part of the heart-wrenching drama of Mahler's life. To me, the weird, dissonant chord in the Tenth is what I call "the heart attack chord."


I think he associated that chord with the tension between himself and Alma. Apparently it was not present in the movement until after the finale was drafted (where it reappears).


----------



## violadude

Mahlerian said:


> To answer your question, I seem to remember that Bernstein also had the third hammerblow in his DG version. It's actually in a different place from where some people seem to think it was.


Solti also puts the third hammer blow back in his recording with the Chicago Symphony.


----------



## Avey

Levine's interpretations are not heavily discussed here. So, opinions?

Just listened to Levine on the _Sixth_, with the London Symphony Orchestra. I could not even find a photo to include here! I suppose the record I have is that obscure...? Levine, RCA, 1979.

Anyways, my unabashed opinion: Rather unspectacular, even considering that the _Sixth_ has a certain "floor" of emotion -- that is, regardless of performance level, you are going to FEEL SOMETHING. So, while I get the fantods and what not listening here, compared to other performances, Levine is rather, well, stale. Something very conservative or just, I dunno, generic about his version.

Maybe I am jaded with the _Sixth_ recordings?

Thoughts?


----------



## Albert7

Going to check out the Boulez cycle of your work fairly soon. I am super excited about those 78 recordings too. But next month hopefully .


----------



## ptr

Avey said:


> Anyways, my unabashed opinion: Rather unspectacular, even considering that the _Sixth_ has a certain "floor" of emotion -- that is, regardless of performance level, you are going to FEEL SOMETHING. So, while I get the fantods and what not listening here, compared to other performances, Levine is rather, well, stale. Something very conservative or just, I dunno, generic about his version.


That more or less mirror my thought's re Levine on Mahler! (The only Mahler I care for as little is Solti's!) 

/ptr


----------



## JACE

Avey said:


> Levine's interpretations are not heavily discussed here. So, opinions?
> 
> Just listened to Levine on the _Sixth_, with the London Symphony Orchestra. I could not even find a photo to include here! I suppose the record I have is that obscure...? Levine, RCA, 1979.
> 
> Anyways, my unabashed opinion: Rather unspectacular, even considering that the _Sixth_ has a certain "floor" of emotion -- that is, regardless of performance level, you are going to FEEL SOMETHING. So, while I get the fantods and what not listening here, compared to other performances, Levine is rather, well, stale. Something very conservative or just, I dunno, generic about his version.
> 
> Maybe I am jaded with the _Sixth_ recordings?
> 
> Thoughts?


Avey,

I have Levine's budget box of Mahler symphonies. The only one that's really knocked me out has been his Fourth with the Chicago SO and Judith Blegen.

Otherwise... meh.

That said, there are lots of Mahler fans who swear by this set and especially rave about Levine's M3 and M7. So it works for some if not all.

My benchmarks for the M6 are Barbirolli (EMI), Bernstein (DG) and Kubelik (DG).


----------



## padraic

I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but which performance of M8 do people feel have the best _vocal_ performances?


----------



## hpowders

Solti. Boulez.


----------



## Antiquarian

padraic said:


> which performance of M8 do people feel have the best _vocal_ performances?


It all comes down to personal preference. For me, the best vocal performance, and the 8th that I return to most frequently is the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra conducted by Robert Shaw. (Telarc, 1991)


----------



## ptr

re M8, Jasha Horenstein (BBC Legends), Rafael Kubelik (Audite), Klaus Tennstedt (EMI), and personally I cant stand letting Solti anywhere near my Mahler! (He makes the music sound like it was built with Lego bricks that the dog has chewed on instead of meticulously sculpted from Gruyère and Emmentaler! )

/ptr


----------



## Triplets

Avey said:


> Levine's interpretations are not heavily discussed here. So, opinions?
> 
> Just listened to Levine on the _Sixth_, with the London Symphony Orchestra. I could not even find a photo to include here! I suppose the record I have is that obscure...? Levine, RCA, 1979.
> 
> Anyways, my unabashed opinion: Rather unspectacular, even considering that the _Sixth_ has a certain "floor" of emotion -- that is, regardless of performance level, you are going to FEEL SOMETHING. So, while I get the fantods and what not listening here, compared to other performances, Levine is rather, well, stale. Something very conservative or just, I dunno, generic about his version.
> 
> Maybe I am jaded with the _Sixth_ recordings?
> 
> Thoughts?


I have the Levine Mahler set. The 6th is the major disapointment. The strings really fail to soar in the Andante, the big climax of that movement just falls flat like an aired out souffle. the rest of it is marginallylly better but non competitive in a crowded field.
The 3rd is the highlight of that set. 1, 5, 7 and 9 were all respectable but not enough to displace any favorites.


----------



## Avey

I believe most of the members here would not view me as bashful, or reticent if you will, in my attempting to elucidate my emotions with any given piece. You either reject or appreciate the attempts. That is my primer. So, given that disclaimer...

I recently listened to the *Fifth*, again, within the past few days. Maybe certain instances have queued something significant in my life. Maybe I am emotionally unstable at this given instance. Maybe time dictates change.

Regardless, on a recent listen of these works, a particular slow movement affected me, and affected me in ways so vastly divorced from previous and recent sentiments. Despite the cliche, mundane, trite, overwrought comments that often dominate the program notes and commentary for this piece -- i.e. that the *adagietto* can stand alone, a love song but also funeral piece, that it is quintessential Mahler, etc etc. -- finally moving past all those banal, tangential opinions, let us recognize and relate that the feelings you get from a movement or piece grow stale after time. This is natural.

Despite all this, however, I have found something new. *I heard something and felt something entirely unexpected and unannounced.* Something hit me, beyond initial listens. *That is, the Fifth's adagietto threw me for such an entirely novel, profound, serious sort of loop earlier today that I am honestly dumbfounded as to what remaining secrets Mahler's music yet reveals. *

Despite these years, I am discovering and uncovering notes, melodies, themes, dynamics, *PATHOS*. And finding these undiscovered treasures, even in his most popular, performed, and renown piece is a sign: *There is nothing like this music. *There is nothing that even approaches this music.


----------



## Albert7

I can't wait to return back to some hardcore Mahler listening in May. I already queued up some purchasing for that month.


----------



## padraic

Triplets said:


> I have the Levine Mahler set. The 6th is the major disapointment. The strings really fail to soar in the Andante, the big climax of that movement just falls flat like an aired out souffle. the rest of it is marginallylly better but non competitive in a crowded field.
> The 3rd is the highlight of that set. 1, 5, 7 and 9 were all respectable but not enough to displace any favorites.


I just picked up the Levine set - honestly, only because it was too cheap not to. $16 for the 10 CD box.


----------



## Albert7

I am astonished that no one here has mentioned the brilliant Sinopoli Mahler cycle. That guy was unique but totally cool in his readings of this wonderful composer.


----------



## Skilmarilion

Avey said:


> I believe most of the members here would not view me as bashful, or reticent if you will, in my attempting to elucidate my emotions with any given piece.
> 
> ...


Uh dude, of course not ...

Please -- *please* -- keep attempting. :tiphat:


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## hpowders

I have so many Mahler performances, but nothing by Levine. Strange. Don't know why.


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## padraic

Well, I actually listened to the first two movements of Levine's 7th this morning - they were actually quite good!


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## Albert7

I miss hearing Mahler but right now I'm watching Terence Malick's The Tree of Life and realizing how much it unfolds very much like a Mahler Symphony. Both deal with universal themes in such a powerful way that we can't really anticipate... except on a spiritual plane.


----------



## hpowders

padraic said:


> Well, I actually listened to the first two movements of Levine's 7th this morning - they were actually quite good!


You know, I taped a Mahler 7th off the radio once with Levine from Europe at one of the festivals. I remember it was quite good also.


----------



## Vaneyes

I thought I'd drop this (link) here. When discussing composers, the art or the man, there's often a temptation to pigeon hole. I've noticed in my chronological journey of classical music, it gets more and more difficult to pigeon hole as one approaches and eventually goes into the 20th century. Mahler, of course, was on the cusp of this important time. And some say, responsible for the symphony's death knell. Structure's adrift. The only answer is there is no answer. :tiphat:

https://peterbannister.wordpress.co...gy-doesnt-know-what-to-do-with-gustav-mahler/


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## hpowders

^^^^Interesting discussion.


----------



## TradeMark

Mahler is my favorite romantic composer. My favorite symphony by him is the 6th symphony.


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## Dim7

I'm liking the 4th symphony more when I pretend it's composed by Mozler rather than Mahler.


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## Vaneyes

TradeMark said:


> Mahler is my favorite romantic composer. My favorite symphony by him is the 6th symphony.


I know GM's often described as Late Romantic, but I prefer Early Modern. :tiphat:


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## Becca

*Mahler 2nd timings*

I have 3 versions of the _Resurrection_ in my collection and I thought that it would be interesting to compare the timings of them.

Klemperer/Philharmonia (EMI).... 19.03 10.30 11.40 4.01 34.04 ... 79.18
Barbirolli / Stuttgart Radio ........... 21.12 10.19 11.21 4.45 33.02 ... 80.39
Rattle/City of Birmingham (EMI) . 23.52 10.16 11.18 5.07 35.09 ... 85.42

So ... Klemperer wasn't always the slow-poke!
I also have a Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic taken from a live recording and while I haven't checked it, I know that the first movement is taken at about the same tempo as with the CBSO.

I once attended a Mehta/Los Angeles Philharmonic performance and my (maybe suspect) memory is that it was even faster than Klemperer. All I remember for sure is that Mehta seemed to want to do it faster & louder than anyone else!


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## Azol

I have even more versions of M2 (might want to check the timings later on) and I can say that Bernstein offered the broadest tempi, which actually works in Finale, but not so good in opening Allegro maestoso. And I like the first movement taken at very brisk pace (Klemperer, Ozawa, Solti).

----
Okay, in addition to your timings here is more:

Solti, Chicago SO........ 20.45....11.15....10.21....4.50....33.48
Ozawa, Saito Kinen..... 20.55....10.02....10.20....5.00....34.32
Bernstein, NY............. 25.04....12.06....11.24....6.18....38.38


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## hpowders

Yes. Bernstein/NY Philharmonic are devastating in 2. Also in 3 and 4, IMHO.


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## ptr

More M2 timings

Stokowski/LSO (BBC Live ): 20.59 / 8.51 / 10.56 / 5.09 / 32.00 = 77.57
Stokowski/LSO (RCA): 23.09 / 10.17 / 9.53 / 4.08 / 33.18 = 80.46
Haitink/RCO (Philips): 20.26 / 10.56 / 11.22 / 5,19 / 34.09 = 82.14
Kempe/MPO (BBC Live): 20.32 / 11.16 / 11.48 / 5.30 / 35.50 = 84.58
Klemperer/RCO (Membran Live): 17.42 / 9.24 / 10.34 / 5,32 / 28.22 = 71.39
Rattle/BPO (EMI): 24.23 / 10.11 / 11.32 / 5.20 / 35.03 = 86.31
Zander/PO (Telarc): 22.41 / 10.10 / 12.48 / 5.48 / 38.57 = 90.24
Tennstedt/LPO (LPO Live): 25.00 / 12.11 / 11.23 / 6.13 / 39.07 = 93.53
Scherchen/VSOO (Westminster): 25.07 / 11.57 / 12.31 / 6.52 / 37.45 = 94.15
Barbirolli/BPO (Testament): 21.53 / 11.01 / 11.26 / 5.34 / 34.04 = 84.01

The Live Stokowski might seem a tad fast, but I think that there are cuts (Don't have a score at hand to verify!) .. I have more versions (including three of the aforementioned), but these are the one's I have on my travelling hard drive! Barbirolli with the Berliners being the one I listen to most often, I find it very well judged!

/ptr


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## padraic

At the risk of attacking a sacred cow, I never cared for Klemperer's 2nd. First movement is way too fast for me.


----------



## Heliogabo

hpowders said:


> Yes. Bernstein/NY Philharmonic are devastating in 2. Also in 3 and 4, IMHO.


Also in 8, I think. (w/ LPO)


----------



## hpowders

Heliogabo said:


> Also in 8, I think. (w/ LPO)


My problem with that recording is the constricted sound. The performance is intense.

Because of the sound issue, I prefer the Boulez performance. Beautiful sound.


----------



## Becca

padraic said:


> At the risk of attacking a sacred cow, I never cared for Klemperer's 2nd. First movement is way too fast for me.


Can anyone post the timings for Bruno Walter recordings? I ask because both Walter & Klemperer worked directly with Mahler and so would have a good idea of what tempi Mahler wanted. I am guessing that it would be on the faster end of the scale.


----------



## ptr

Walter/NYPO (Columbia 1958): 21.37 / 10.35 / 10.43 / 4.11 / 32.26 = 79.33

/ptr


----------



## Mahlerian

Becca said:


> Can anyone post the timings for Bruno Walter recordings? I ask because both Walter & Klemperer worked directly with Mahler and so would have a good idea of what tempi Mahler wanted. I am guessing that it would be on the faster end of the scale.


His tempi would be considered on the fast side compared to the average Mahler performance today (especially in something like the Adagietto, which he took in about 8 minutes), but we should remember that Mahler's own interpretations of standard repertoire were different with every performance, and that he spurned the idea of hewing to tradition for its own sake.


----------



## Becca

Mahlerian said:


> His tempi would be considered on the fast side compared to the average Mahler performance today (especially in something like the Adagietto, which he took in about 8 minutes), but we should remember that Mahler's own interpretations of standard repertoire were different with every performance, and that he spurned the idea of hewing to tradition for its own sake.


While his attitude towards tradition is well known, I am sure that when he was conducting it he knew what he had in his mind when he composed it and that his performances of it were probably reasonably close to that. My point is only that the slower performances are probably not HiP correct :lol: Personally I have no wish to listen to a 94minute M2!


----------



## Vaneyes

Heliogabo said:


> {Bernstein} Also in 8, I think. (w/ LPO)


With LSO, recorded 1966. No sound issues with this 24-bit remastering. :tiphat:


----------



## Heliogabo

Vaneyes said:


> With LSO, recorded 1966. No sound issues with this 24-bit remastering. :tiphat:


I listen to this set (2008 remaster) and the sound of M8 is fine to me. And in some cases (4, 5, 1) is very good.


----------



## Adam Weber

Becca said:


> Personally I have no wish to listen to a 94minute M2!


Mahler falls apart at that speed, in my opinion. I have a love/hate relationships with Tennstedt's Mahler 2nd. On the one hand, it's possibly the most beautiful, heartrending account of the music ever committed to disc. On the other, some of the sounds produced resemble earthquakes and thunder more than anything outright _musical_. All folksiness is washed away in a brine of thick pathos. Sometimes I can bear it, others I can't.


----------



## Mahlerian

Adam Weber said:


> Mahler falls apart at that speed, in my opinion. I have a love/hate relationships with Tennstedt's Mahler 2nd. On the one hand, it's possibly the most beautiful, heartrending account of the music ever committed to disc. On the other, some of the sounds produced resemble earthquakes and thunder more than anything outright _musical_. All folksiness is washed away in a brine of thick pathos. Sometimes I can bear it, others I can't.


Under anyone else, it might fall apart, but Tennstedt is able to keep it together, I find. He always had a sense of texture, counterpoint, and musical line that kept up no matter how slow his tempi got (and they weren't always slower than average, just sometimes).


----------



## Adam Weber

Ergo the love/hate relationship... It does hold together in its own way, but in others the music changes completely, and that's falling apart in my books. It sounds like a different piece to me. That's just my opinion, though, and keep in mind that I prefer "colder"* Mahler most the time--Boulez, Chailly, Fischer, et cetera.

*Not cold in _my_ opinion, but in the opinion of critics who need everything at 300 degrees, à la Bernstein, who I don't care for in this repertoire.


----------



## hpowders

I wouldn't call Boulez cold. I would call him "just right". A pleasure to hear so much that is going on in a Mahler score.

Try Karajan/Berlin in his live Mahler Ninth. For me, this one's a bullseye.


----------



## Polyphemus

For me Klemperer's 2nd is a gold standard musically. Lenny is O K when he can keep his ego in check. But to be honest there are a lot of really good Mahler recordings out there Abbado's Berlin Live set, Chailly, Tennstedt etc. 
There are no perfect sets out there but there is a lot of fun building one to suit your wants, and I guarantee that no one else contributing to this topic will agree with your choice. That's the joy of loving music.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

I really don't want to create a thread, so I'll use this space for suggestions.

*Tell me your favorite Mahler 1st "Titan"* I plan on going through the symphonies again some time soon and I want to listen to a new conductor for each symphony. So, that means _no_ Rafael Kubelik. I have a few in mind, Bernstein/NYP, Bernstein/Concertgebouw, Abbado/Berlin, and Boulez/Chicago.


----------



## Polyphemus

Abbado or Boulez sound fine I have always loved Solti's LSO version (60's). One out of left field now and worth a try Marin Alsop and the Baltimore Symphony on Naxos well worth the modest outlay.


----------



## Vaneyes

DiesIraeVIX said:


> So, I really don't want to create a thread, so I'll use this space for suggestions.
> 
> *Tell me your favorite Mahler 1st "Titan"* I plan on going through the symphonies again some time soon and I want to listen to a new conductor for each symphony. So, that means _no_ Rafael Kubelik. I have a few in mind, Bernstein/NYP, Bernstein/Concertgebouw, Abbado/Berlin, and Boulez/Chicago.


Philadelphia/Muti (EMI rec.1984), but only if you can obtain the Japan 24-bit remastering. Otherwise, CSO/Solti (Decca rec.1983). :tiphat:

View attachment 68293
View attachment 68294


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## elgar's ghost

As firsts go, I rather like this one from 1969 - bit pricey these days, though:


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## padraic

Dear Mahler,
I am hopelessly addicted to your music.


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## Albert7

I need to find that Ken Russell movie about Mahler very much.


----------



## Guest

Seeing Mahler 3 tonight.

Excited about the music, fearful for my overactive bladder and tender buttocks.


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## Avey

Yay or nay on the _scherzo-andante_ order in the Sixth?

I go nay. Vice versa feels much more powerful and alive. Plus, it makes sense to my neurons.


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## padraic

nathanb said:


> Seeing Mahler 3 tonight.
> 
> Excited about the music, fearful for my overactive bladder and tender buttocks.


So how was it?

Not sure why this forum frowns on pithiness.


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## Mahlerian

Avey said:


> Yay or nay on the _scherzo-andante_ order in the Sixth?
> 
> I go nay. Vice versa feels much more powerful and alive. Plus, it makes sense to my neurons.


I say yea, but in actuality I could go either way. I think putting the Scherzo first fits in with the symphony's overarching theme of collapse, and the Andante leads into the Finale better.


----------



## Skilmarilion

Avey said:


> Yay or nay on the _scherzo-andante_ order in the Sixth?
> 
> I go nay. Vice versa feels much more powerful and alive. Plus, it makes sense to my neurons.


Yeah, I'm a fan too of _andante-scherzo_.

Those opening timpani strokes of the scherzo (that signal all of the manic brilliance that is about to come) are just more violent and more incredible, to my ears, when following the andante.

But of course, either way is cool. :tiphat:


----------



## Guest

padraic said:


> So how was it?
> 
> Not sure why this forum frowns on pithiness.


Surely the best classical concert I've seen. Now, granted, I'm still a relative newborn compared to most users here, so that makes one of six or so, but they weren't just any concerts (others include a Bach/Schoenberg/Prokofiev, a Brahms/Dvorak, a Britten/Mahler/Brahms, an all Beethoven, and, if you want to count it, a Brahms/Mendelssohn/Shostakovich that I saw for a class a couple of years before I cared about this stuff).

Judging by 1) the fact that this is the second season in a row in which Mahler symphonies have opened and closed the season at the DSO and 2) the solemn pause that Jaap Van Zweden held at the end of the Wunderhorn songs, I have long suspected that Van Zweden considers himself a Mahlerian of sorts. This concert in particular is the most lively I have ever seen him, as he pushed the large orchestra for more and more, and offered up a sublime interpretation of the entire work.

Given some of the discussion around here, I made special efforts to focus on various aspects of the music. I could have the wrong count, being a musical layman, but I was able to discern that the entire monolith of an opening movement seemed to be derived from three central themes, each masterfully manipulated through motivic development. The orchestration was astonishing, of course; I think Mahler's orchestration is less obvious on recording than that of a masterful 20th century orchestrator because he isn't quite working with the same number of colors as a modern Frenchman has at his demand with a full battery of tuned percussion. I especially experienced an inner chuckle in noticing that of all the instruments, the violins were probably one of the very last to be given a significant part.

Next, my goal was to debunk some other myths I've heard around here about the larger symphonic structure. Wow. These movements are so dependent on one another and carefully intertwined, it's scary. In particular, the concert master is given several small solos throughout that seem to rely on similar material, and the plodding theme that opens the 4th movement echoes the 2nd theme of the first movement without a doubt. Even some old ladies with very folksy mannerisms were chatting outside the bathroom after the show about how they noticed similar stuff throughout the symphony. You could tell they had no idea how to express it (but then again, neither do I), but to them, it was obvious to the ears.

I focused so intently on the first movement that I definitely spaced out a bit during the second, but the glorious offstage trumpet in the 3rd movement brought my attention back for the rest of the concert. The mezzo soprano was top notch, and not too hard on the eyes either (I finally remembered to bring my glasses to this one!).

Jaap's tempo was very slightly slower in the first movement than what I'm used to (I've heard Boulez and Abbado), but he picked up the pace a little more than what I'm used to in the second half, but of course without ruining the vibe of the last movement. He also had quite the little twerk going on in the 3rd movement. Coulda used that on the dance floor, Jaap.

All in all. Wow.


----------



## Avey

Avey said:


> Yay or nay on the _scherzo-andante_ order in the Sixth?
> 
> *I go nay.*


Wow, this is embarrassing. I was just reading over my post, and I completely misstated that. I actually _prefer_ the scherzo to andante. THAT is what makes sense, THAT sounds alive to me.

sorry Skils, feel free to unlike!


----------



## Skilmarilion

Avey said:


> sorry Skils, feel free to unlike!


Done. 

And thanks for the write-up, nathan. The 3rd is one I would love to see in concert!


----------



## EdwardBast

Avey said:


> Yay or nay on the _scherzo-andante_ order in the Sixth?
> 
> I go nay. Vice versa feels much more powerful and alive. Plus, it makes sense to my neurons.


I too prefer the Andante first. The scherzo's opening, because of its clear relationship to the principal material of the first movement, is, to my ears, much more effective when the contrasting expressive world of the Andante intervenes. Additionally, it puts the Andante in a dynamic relationship to material allied in contrast to it on either side. For me, this arrangement greatly sharpens the dramatic profile of the whole cycle.

Edit: I guess I should remove "too" since Avey has changed his choice.


----------



## Janspe

I've been listening to a lot of Mahler recently, and he's really becoming one of my favourite composers. Granted, I've only been listening to his symphonies (and the Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, but those are related to the first symphony anyways) but I still think I've heard enough to say that this is pretty incredible stuff.

It would be impossible to choose a favourite symphony from the nine (or ten) - they are all so very different works! I especially love the second (an obvious choice, I know), the fourth, the fifth and the sixth. The final movement of the fourth symphony is one of the loveliest things I've ever heard. The third I also like very much, I can't understand why so many people seem to dislike it. The opening of the fifth movement has been haunting me for weeks, a terrible earworm indeed...

The two symphonies that still make me scratch my head a little are the seventh and the ninth. Any insights or recording recommendations on those pieces would be highly appreciated! I do enjoy them, for sure, but really "getting" them has proved to be a little tricky.


----------



## Avey

Janspe said:


> The two symphonies that still make me scratch my head a little are the seventh and the ninth. Any insights or recording recommendations on those pieces would be highly appreciated! I do enjoy them, for sure, but really "getting" them has proved to be a little tricky.


I love these notes on the Ninth: http://mahlerfest.org/mfXVIII/notes_symphony9.htm

They are _almost_ as good as *Mahlerian's* blog posts. Almost. The latter being your first and necessary resource to delve deeper into Mahler's works.


----------



## Azol

Janspe said:


> The two symphonies that still make me scratch my head a little are the seventh and the ninth. Any insights or recording recommendations on those pieces would be highly appreciated! I do enjoy them, for sure, but really "getting" them has proved to be a little tricky.


For Seventh this is exactly the recording when it clicked for me. Bernstein is conducting - should I say more?


----------



## Mahlerian

Avey said:


> I love these notes on the Ninth: http://mahlerfest.org/mfXVIII/notes_symphony9.htm
> 
> They are _almost_ as good as *Mahlerian's* blog posts. Almost. The latter being your first and necessary resource to delve deeper into Mahler's works.


Augh, if only I could find the time to finish my posts on the Seventh. They take a good bit of effort to prepare.

I did do a short one on the Eighth last year:
http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/mahlerian/1532-mahlers-eighth-symphony-development.html


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## Albert7

Mahlerian said:


> Augh, if only I could find the time to finish my posts on the Seventh. They take a good bit of effort to prepare.
> 
> I did do a short one on the Eighth last year:
> http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/mahlerian/1532-mahlers-eighth-symphony-development.html


Great work and I can't wait to see what you come up with later on.


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## Guest

Any thoughts on Giulini's Mahler 9th with the CSO? I'm considering the Speaker Corner remaster on LP, but at $65, I want to know it's great!


----------



## chalkpie

Happy B-day Gustav!!


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## Albert7

Happy bday Mahler man!

Peace to the world.


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## Avey

_Uns erwahlte Konigin, Gottern ebenburtig_

to

_Dir, der Unberuhrbaren, Ist es nicht benommen_

The moments (music) between those verses, and that sound which moves and persists into the latter, are beyond much else Mahler wrote. I am convinced of this. Passion, Meaning, Purpose. Here are the sounds of life. Truly, I am dumb when translating those notes into words. I only hope people know what I am referring to here (and I know y'all do).


----------



## Lord Lance

Mahlerian said:


> Augh, if only I could find the time to finish my posts on the Seventh. They take a good bit of effort to prepare.
> 
> I did do a short one on the Eighth last year:
> http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/mahlerian/1532-mahlers-eighth-symphony-development.html


You could be a masterful salesman and marketer.


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> You could be a masterful salesman and marketer.


Wow can't believe that you posted that comment.


----------



## Lord Lance

Albert7 said:


> Wow can't believe that you posted that comment.


I don't understand. Complimenting people is _bad_ ?


----------



## Avey

Avey said:


> _Dir, der Unberuhrbaren, Ist es nicht benommen_
> 
> The moments (music) between those verses...


I (very much) take this back: *Ewiger Wonnebrand* is my favorite part. That is my favorite sound. That is _definitively _my favorite song ever written, ever. Ever. How do you even describe _eternal_ things like that. Moments you cannot ever forget.


----------



## Arie

Rachovsky said:


> What can I say, I'm not a fan of Gustav Mahler.
> Everything I have listened to sounds like a Requiem (maybe I haven't listened to enough.)
> Is anything by him quick and lively? Presto? Vivace? even Allegro? :S
> 
> Everything I hear by him is either Adagio, Largo, or Lento. Suggestions?
> The only thing I've heard that's interesting is the beginning of the horn solo in No. 9 and then it gets boring :S. Hope I don't get flamed now, lol.


The first two movements of Mahler's 1st symphony is one of the liveliest and genius composition in my opinion. The 1st movement of 6th symphony, too, is tremendously powerful.


----------



## Guest

Has anyone heard this? If so, how does it compare to his live recording on DG?


----------



## Vaneyes

Kontrapunctus said:


> Has anyone heard this? If so, how does it compare to his live recording on DG?


HvK had a way with M9, that I think outweighs his readings for 4, 5, 6. He may have taken notice of Barbirolli's successful (EMI 1964) M9 with the same band. Of the two BPO/HvK DG M9s, I prefer the earlier (by a year or two) studio recording. Can't go too wrong with either. Enjoy!


----------



## Vaneyes

Kontrapunctus said:


> Any thoughts on Giulini's Mahler 9th with the CSO? I'm considering the Speaker Corner remaster on LP, but at $65, I want to know it's great!


It's usually on somebody's favorite Mahler list. For M9, I proceed with LB (Sony Century), HvK (DG I, OIBP), Barbirolli (EMI GROC ART). So, I would have to say it's not worth $65 in any form. :tiphat:


----------



## Guest

I agree. I went for the HvK. I have the live one, so this other one should be interesting to compare to it. Many people seem to prefer the slightly older studio version.


----------



## haydnfan

Has any one heard Ivan Fischer's 9th? Thoughts?


----------



## millionrainbows

thinking of Mahler, his symphonies can be so intimate. It's like he's writing chamber music in a lot of it. I've been listening to the Third (Chicago, Haitink) and the singing part is nice, too. They are very long, true, but there is so much intimacy and change and contrast.


----------



## Vaneyes

millionrainbows said:


> thinking of Mahler, his symphonies can be so intimate. It's like he's writing chamber music in a lot of it. I've been listening to the Third (Chicago, Haitink) and the singing part is nice, too. They are very long, true, but there is so much intimacy and change and contrast.


I've never noticed the chamber intimacy. I must be using those periods for my pee-breaks. Jus' kiddin'. 

Sir John's M9, I think you'd like. :tiphat:


----------



## Avey

Anyone heard this yet? http://www.npr.org/sections/decepti...63/a-mahler-symphony-squeezed-in-a-squeezebox

I read some harsh criticism in the comments (from the original tweet), which is hinted at in this short write-up. I don't get it. This is just a unique interpretation. I found it interesting, for what it is. Not like you need every ode or remix to copy the original note for note, scope by scope.


----------



## Vicente

Which Mahler 2nd symphony recording do you recommend me?
I am going to a concert of this symphony in September, and would like to here two or three versions before.
Thanks.
Vicente


----------



## EdwardBast

haydnfan said:


> Has any one heard Ivan Fischer's 9th? Thoughts?


I'd like to. He's one of my favorite conductors. I heard a wonderful interpretation of Mahler 4 from Fischer when he was hired as a last minute replacement for a concert of the New York Philharmonic.


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## haydnfan

I like the Mehta/VPO recording because of Christa Ludwig's Urlicht which is very special. She also performs in the Bernstein/NYPO recording (DG) but Bernstein's conducting in that symphony is quite expansive. In contrast, Mehta has an almost Klemperer like speed and transparency over the majority of the symphony.


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## ptr

^^M2: Partial to Klemperer, esp. Live at the Holland Festival 1851 with Kath Ferrier and Jo Vincent. Tennstedt live is very good, Rattle with the BPO on EMI is remarkable, Barbirolli in Berlin with Janet Baker and Maria Stader might be my all time favourite, but then Barbirolli and Mahler is not everyone's cup of tea, for me its bliss!

/ptr


----------



## Vaneyes

haydnfan said:


> Has any one heard Ivan Fischer's 9th? Thoughts?


It's been a while since I've heard Ivan Fischer's Mahler. I remember thinking at the time,"This is Mahler Lite." 'Round that period, there were many Mahler Lite releases...taking advantage of the M-demand. Whatever gets people to Mahler. I do generally like what Fischer and the Budapest Festival Orchestra have done. They're on my bucket list. Cheers! :tiphat:


----------



## Vaneyes

Vicente said:


> Which Mahler 2nd symphony recording do you recommend me?
> I am going to a concert of this symphony in September, and would like to here two or three versions before.
> Thanks.
> Vicente


Suitner (Berlin Classics), Klemperer (EMI, studio rec.).

For crazy, Scherchen (Millennium Classics), or NYPO/Bernstein (Sony Century), or to a lesser degree Klemperer (EMI, live rec.). Cheers! :tiphat:


----------



## isorhythm

Anyone have any thoughts on Chailly's Mahler 9? I've recently discovered it and it may be a new favorite.


----------



## Vaneyes

isorhythm said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on Chailly's Mahler 9? I've recently discovered it and it may be a new favorite.


What you like is most important.

My thoughts. The sound is seductive, though I think Chailly's interp.(as in the rest of the cycle) pales next to esteemed Mahlerians. Excitement, spontaneity, chance-taking, isn't quite there. Occasionally, paint-by-numbers is detected, which certainly isn't the ACO calling card. The bars are set high for Mahler recs, too high for this one. Cheers! :tiphat:


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## Skilmarilion

Has anyone heard the recent Maazel set of 7, 8 & 9?









The andante of the 9th clocks in at just under 36 mins!


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## Skilmarilion

isorhythm said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on Chailly's Mahler 9? I've recently discovered it and it may be a new favorite.


I actually heard this one a couple of weeks ago. I like it, and he takes the adagio very slowly, which I prefer.

Does anyone happen to know the slowest recording of the adagio? Bernstein is the only one I've come across that goes over 30 mins (w/ Israel Philharmonic). The recent Maazel/Philharmonia is actually not far off. Not sure I could ever go for the sub 20-minute takes like Walter, Norrington (lol) and Boulez.


----------



## haydnfan

A long time ago I had a recording of Horenstein conducting, I think that was over 30 minutes in the adagio. I'm not sure which one it even was, I know he recorded it more than once.


----------



## Mahlerian

Skilmarilion said:


> Does anyone happen to know the slowest recording of the adagio? Bernstein is the only one I've come across that goes over 30 mins (w/ Israel Philharmonic). The recent Maazel/Philharmonia is actually not far off. Not sure I could ever go for the sub 20-minute takes like Walter, Norrington (lol) and Boulez.


Based on Walter's performance and the way that conductors have taken slower and slower times for the Adagietto of the Fifth over the years (Mahler's own performances only ran about 8 minutes), I'd say a sub-20 minute time would probably be accurate to the composer's intentions.

That's not to say that you can't go against the composer's intentions and create a moving performance, and I'm sure Mahler would have agreed that if it works, you should do it.


----------



## Skilmarilion

Mahlerian said:


> Based on Walter's performance and the way that conductors have taken slower and slower times for the Adagietto of the Fifth over the years (Mahler's own performances only ran about 8 minutes), I'd say a sub-20 minute time would probably be accurate to the composer's intentions.
> 
> That's not to say that you can't go against the composer's intentions and create a moving performance, and I'm sure Mahler would have agreed that if it works, you should do it.


Although isn't this the only movement across all the symphonies that he labels _*sehr*_ langsam? But yes, Walter is about as good a guide as there could be.

For whatever reason I just feel like this movement can never be taken too slowly. That's just the way it's come across to me in a few recordings. But I don't feel like that at all about say, Celibidache's Bruckner, where a lot of the time an adagio just feels agonisingly slow, and almost 'heavy' and 'trudging'.


----------



## Vicente

Thanks a lot for your recommendations regarding Mahler's second symphony.
I finally got Klemperer's recording, and I am enjoying it a lot.
Regards
Vicente


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## isorhythm

Skilmarilion said:


> For whatever reason I just feel like this movement can never be taken too slowly.


I feel the same, but I think I have bad taste in this regard. I tend to like _all _slow movements really, really slow. Unsurprisingly, I'm a Bernstein fan when it comes to Mahler.


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## padraic

Vicente said:


> Which Mahler 2nd symphony recording do you recommend me?
> I am going to a concert of this symphony in September, and would like to here two or three versions before.
> Thanks.
> Vicente


Tennstedt/LPO, live. Unparalleled in my view.


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## Barbebleu

Bernstein. Dramatic and exciting.


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## Polyphemus

Vicente said:


> Thanks a lot for your recommendations regarding Mahler's second symphony.
> I finally got Klemperer's recording, and I am enjoying it a lot.
> Regards
> Vicente











Unmissable.

Equally you could try Klemperer Or Solti's LSO.


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## Vaneyes

Barbebleu said:


> Bernstein. Dramatic and exciting.


That was his calling card. In his later recs there was often more emphasis on the drama, leading sometimes to overstaying with a work. Almost never uninteresting, though. In his earlier recs., an amazing "slugging average" for over-the-top. Cheers! :tiphat:


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## Avey

So, considering I am overdue for a random digression: Let me say, or ...

Let us _stop_ saying that *Mahler's Ninth* is about farewell, or death, or giving up. The symphony is so full of life. I have never heard a piece that is so active and alive -- a composition aware of its circumstance and purpose. Who here listens to the opening moments, the dance, the rondo, or the _zuruckhaltend_ -- who hears this stuff and says: "Ugh, oh gosh, this composition, this music, is the sign of resignation, of Herr Mahler's passing!" No one sane!

I pardon my sappiness, but we here may speak true: This music, this sound, simply _speaks_ to something internal, something innate, i.e. the music penetrates and affects. All other music touches, comments, or most often, simply makes noise that I may just _like_. The latter music simply _sounds good_ on a bare listen.

Such an effect is unlike the present subject, the 
Ninth, because those true to the cause -- i.e., reading this thread -- likely agree with my rambling commentary. Thus, I speak to the outside CRITICS and SHEEPS, if you will:

The Ninth Symphony is anything but a _resignation_ or _passing_. This is an exaltation -- wait, no, an apotheosis! Not of the man, but of the sentiment. Think, truly, you reading this: How do *you* feel listening to this music? Is it death? Is it surrender? ... Of course, I know your answer, I know who reads this... We know what persists here.

Maybe this is all abstract. Maybe I am unclear. Simply: *The Ninth is not a terminus.* I find this banal commentary silly and ridiculous. I am tired of reading and hearing all this banter. Maybe you are tired of hearing of me?!

Let us hear the complete Adagio in the Tenth, and the rather "well-constructed" portions following -- kudos to Cooke especially and praises to Mahler's thorough sketches -- which point toward ineffable sentiments that have always impressed upon the person. Maybe _those _notes are something resembling the end. Maybe _those _sort of emotions give me confidence when I choose to relay, here and now, that the Ninth, or even the _Abschied_ in the choral, are not only _strong _and _enduring_ and _permanent_ because they came toward Mahler's end. They are permanent because _they just are._

Can we agree that we must *feel*, not just *perceive* because the timeline indicates so? If you hear an _end_, a final moment in an artist's reflection, then fine by me. We have our own ears.

But here I am doubting, wholeheartedly, that one can hear anything except for fervor and vibrant spirit in the Ninth. There is nothing resembling finality. You dissent, then I ask: Are you sure you are not listening to something in F# minor? Are you sure you are even _listening _, and not simply reading? Not simply accepting what the narrative tells you?

Listen, that is where all the truth is.


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## Crudblud

Avey said:


> How do *you* feel listening to this music? Is it death? Is it surrender?


Neither. It is music.


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## Jorge Hereth

Did you guys know Mahler was Charles Bukowski's favorite composer?


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## Morimur

Jorge Hereth said:


> Did you guys know Mahler was Charles Bukowski's favorite composer?


Mahler is great. Bukowski was a lousy poet . . . but that's neither here nor there.


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## millionrainbows

Morimur said:


> Mahler is great. Bukowski was a lousy poet . . . but that's neither here nor there.


I like Bukowski. I want to be just like him! So I will listen to Mahler!


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## millionrainbows

Crudblud said:


> Neither. It is music.


Yeah, but what happens when you apply your humanity to it; or is that too personal?


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## millionrainbows

Jorge Hereth said:


> Did you guys know Mahler was Charles Bukowski's favorite composer?


Really? I did not know that. I remember in his books & poems that he was always listening to classical music; I remember him mentioning Dvorak and Beethoven, but that's all. Where was this referenced, in a writing of his, or an interview?

What I'd REALLY like to find out is what his favorite brand of beer was. Then I could drink it and listen to Mahler, and become a heroic figure like him!


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## DiesIraeCX

Going to my second live performance this upcoming September 19th at Jones Hall!

Gustav Mahler: Symphony #5
Conductor: Andrés Orozco-Estrada
Houston Symphony Orchestra


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## Crudblud

millionrainbows said:


> Yeah, but what happens when you apply your humanity to it; or is that too personal?


I'm not sure what you're getting at.


----------



## Avey

Avey said:


> So...


Look, I obviously ramble too much. I know this. With that disclaimer, I respond because because after some recent listens (music and commentary), I feel the need to defend myself:

After watching a lot of Bernstein's Mahler commentary recently, I came to grips; I noted how _certain_ I am in my previous sentiments. *Bernstein's comments on the Ninth are very bizarre for me.* I do not agree. I appreciate his interpretation. In fact, I appreciate his comments, his position on the music. I just listened to _Das Lied Von de Erde_, and I really like all his insights. Very personal, revealing stuff.

But the Ninth. But the arbitrary label on "resignation" notes and whatnot -- it seems to sprout on the fact that the music is quiet, was published in early 20th Century, was near Mahler's death, etc.

Gosh, I don't know, people. I strongly disagree with this "end of the line"/resignation stance. L.B. says Mahler was "intensely aware" of his death; that he noticed the "death of tonality," and foreshadowed the "Schoenbergian(?) future." Berstein finds the 10th as another "heartbreaking adagio saying farewell." And he could have never finished it, since, partially, he "said it all in the Ninth." Ugh, what?!?

Where does this come from? He even says "let's not be tempted into psychic mysticism; the facts are potent enough." What he said, though, is precisely "psychic mysticism" in my mind!

I would rebut: The facts, the day-by-day account of life are sometimes _too_ much. We cannot read into music what the composer was dealing with in the moment. We never know what the _sound_ signifies.

Truly, the facts -- that is, the notes, the measures, the score that I can (pseudo) read -- all that sounds to me like a human that has *a lot* to say in music, a lot more than just, _blahblahblahblahblah it sounds quiet, so here I pass, I am resigning...._. I think all the feeling otherwise are silly (but, please, again, note my previous appreciation for L.B....)


Does anybody disagree with me? I really want to hear.


----------



## ptr

I think that much of Bernstein's sentimental rhetoric stems from a time before Grange's seminal biography, I believe that the view is less nostalgic today. (FWIW You will find similar commentary from this period on most romantic composers that succumbed to more or less tragic destines..)

/ptr


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## Guest

Bernstein's views on Mahler are only known to those who've read them. Those who haven't can continue to enjoy Mahler unhindered, although we might still seek someone whose interpretations we prefer.


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## Skilmarilion

Avey said:


> Gosh, I don't know, people. I strongly disagree with this "end of the line"/resignation stance. L.B. says Mahler was "intensely aware" of his death; that he noticed the "death of tonality," and foreshadowed the "Schoenbergian(?) future." Berstein finds the 10th as another "heartbreaking adagio saying farewell." And he could have never finished it, since, partially, he "said it all in the Ninth." Ugh, what?!?


A lot of that narrative was probably sentimental, hyperbolic, near-melodramatic stuff that Bernstein thought would make something like the adagio of the 9th really "move" people. Looking back now, it seems silly.

Also the whole stance taken by so many conductors, that only the adagio of the 10th may be performed, is nonsense. How can it possibly be another "farewell"? I never understood how that movement can be isolated from the rest of the work, and interpreted in a way as if the rest of that symphony doesn't exist. How could you ignore the slow, poignant finale which even in its "performing version" state, has as much to say as nearly anything else by Mahler?

The only farewell is of course Der Abschied, but of course we know that so much was still left to be said after it.


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## millionrainbows

Bernstein points out that at this time, the turn of the century, predating WWs I & II and the atomic age, was ushering in a "century of global death." Tonality was being weakened, and the old 'heroic age' was dying. It makes sence to me, but I see history like that, like Giambattista Vico did.

Psychologically, Mahler and Bernstein both shared a modicum of self-hate; see Mahler's letter to Alma in which he mocks orthodox Jews, distancing himself from them; I'm sure Bernstein also experienced some of this. 

Also remember that death is the ultimate surrender, the ultimate submission, which can be seen as an analogy, or in sublimated form, as the act of sex. This might seem alien to most 'conquering' men, to submit, especially sexually, to another man, as Bernstein did, ultimately "killing off" the heterosexual man he was. 

This is what motivates and colors Bernstein's views on the century, the world, humanity, and sexuality.


----------



## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> Also remember that death is the ultimate surrender, the ultimate submission, which can be seen as an analogy, or in sublimated form, as the act of sex. This might seem alien to most 'conquering' men, to submit, especially sexually, to another man, as Bernstein did, ultimately "killing off" the heterosexual man he was.


I have a friend who knew Bernstein when he was enjoying having sex with other men. He assures me that Lenny only liked to ****, never to be ******. So no, Millionrainbows, I think you're probably wrong, nothing submissive is involved.


----------



## Guest

Not content with inflicting Lenny's alleged views on the innocent, we're now to have his sexuality factored in. I wonder how relevant it is to understanding Mahler's music that we give consideration to the sexual preferences and habits of his interpreters?

Not at all, I'd say.


----------



## Skilmarilion

It turns out that everything that Bernstein had to say about Mahler's 9th is in here:


----------



## Mahlerian

Pace Bernstein, I always have found much to disagree with in his explanations of the ending of the Ninth. He said "Even if Mahler had lived, he could never have finished the Tenth. He had already said it all in his Ninth," and I find this not just to be wrong, but entirely offensive. Mahler, in the summer of 1910, was not a creatively diminished man, but one at the height of his creative powers, in spite of the personal crisis that threatened him on the eve of his upcoming triumph in Munich with the premiere of the Eighth.

Mahler's Tenth Symphony is a work of the utmost integrity and speaks of something beyond the Ninth or Das Lied. Bernstein was wrong to ignore it. Walter was wrong to ignore it.

However, there is an important element in the finale of the Ninth that shouldn't be overlooked. On the last page, Mahler quotes from the Kindertotenlieder, No. 4, "The day is beautiful on yonder heights." In the context of the Ninth, is this a reference to death? Probably. It may be not his own death, but that of his daughter, which had affected him profoundly.


----------



## Skilmarilion

If some kind of "authoritative view" on all this has to be considered, then I prefer Cooke's opinion that:

*"There was still plenty of life left in Mahler when death claimed him: the Tenth reveals that the Ninth had been a phase, like the Sixth, which he had faced and overcome".*


----------



## ricklee

I feel the more I read these threads the more I care to not read them and let Mahler's music speak for itself. This is not an assessment of the intellect behind the opinions but because I need to listen with untainted ears, something like being on jury duty. Only I hope the task far more satisfying.


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## millionrainbows

It's disturbing when you apply humanity to music. For many, art is best when it is 'artifice.'


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## Vaneyes

Skilmarilion said:


> It turns out that everything that Bernstein {w. VPO} had to say about Mahler's 9th is in here....


S., that was LB's feminine side. I prefer his masculine side w. NYPO. No matter, both are valid.


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## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> I have a friend who knew Bernstein when he was enjoying having sex with other men. He assures me that Lenny only liked to ****, never to be ******. So no, Millionrainbows, I think you're probably wrong, nothing submissive is involved.


Sublimation and submission might work in ways that are not as simple as that.


----------



## Woodduck

Bernstein was a man prone to extremes - of feeling, thought, and behavior. In Mahler's hyperexpressive music he felt, rightly or wrongly, a kindred spirit. His views on Mahler's music and what it's about are personal but worth considering for the insights they offer. I hear a powerful consciousness of mortality, and a wrestling with it, in the 9th and elsewhere in Mahler's works, and most certainly in the finale of that symphony: its descending melodic contours, its falling cadences, its yearning and repeatedly renewed pushing against that descent, its strange dark murmurings and lonely interludes, its reluctance to let go, it's final exhaustion and stillness heavy with love, longing, and acceptance ... Interpreting this as a "farewell" to life may be going too far, but hearing a spirit striving to come to terms with its mortality may not be.

If Lenny can make the music sound like this, I'm for giving him a break.


----------



## Guest

Woodduck said:


> His views on Mahler's music and what it's about are personal but worth considering for the insights they offer.


I agree. I like to know what the conductor thinks about the composer's work. But I don't feel the need to examine the additional layer of the conductor's private life and how that has impacted on his view of the music. If the experience of listening is like an onion, I'll stop peeling after the third layer...or is it the 5th?

The music
The story of the music
The composer's view of the music
The conductor's view of the music
The conductor's view of the composer
[The story of the conductor...] (I can't do strikethrough!)


----------



## Nereffid

MacLeod said:


> I agree. I like to know what the conductor thinks about the composer's work. But I don't feel the need to examine the additional layer of the conductor's private life and how that has impacted on his view of the music. If the experience of listening is like an onion, I'll stop peeling after the third layer...or is it the 5th?
> 
> The music
> The story of the music
> The composer's view of the music
> The conductor's view of the music
> The conductor's view of the composer
> [The story of the conductor...] (I can't do strikethrough!)


More than that... if one's going to bring the _conductor's_ personal life in, surely one must also bring one's _own_ personal life in, because any conclusions one comes to based on the conductor's personal life will be filtered through one's own experiences. And then of course the person reading your conclusions must also take their _own_ personal life into account when considering your conclusions...

Yeah. Better to stick to the music.


----------



## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> Sublimation and submission might work in ways that are not as simple as that.


If you can, I'd be interested if you'd say a little more.

I had a strange experience after making that post yesterday, which I'll mention because I would if this were a "normal" conversation. The man who knew about Bernstein's sex preferences, I haven't seen him for at least 10 years. So I looked him up, to find he'd died, a recluse and alcoholic living in provincial England. He was an american; friend (in some sense) of Ginsburg, Burroughs, Bernstein, Jagger; journalist (poetry editor) for a major Sunday here; poet and professor. When he died his life's work, a long poem, was still incomplete. He used to be a colleague and a drinking companion of mine. I found thinking about him, about time and disappointments, really disturbing.


----------



## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> If you can, I'd be interested if you'd say a little more.
> 
> I had a strange experience after making that post yesterday, which I'll mention because I would if this were a "normal" conversation. The man who knew about Bernstein's sex preferences, I haven't seen him for at least 10 years. So I looked him up, to find he'd died, a recluse and alcoholic living in provincial England. He was an american; friend (in some sense) of Ginsburg, Burroughs, Bernstein, Jagger; journalist (poetry editor) for a major Sunday here; poet and professor. When he died his life's work, a long poem, was still incomplete. He used to be a colleague and a drinking companion of mine. I found thinking about him, about time and disappointments, really disturbing.


Yeah, there's more than one way to die.


----------



## millionrainbows

Nereffid said:


> More than that... if one's going to bring the _conductor's_ personal life in, surely one must also bring one's _own_ personal life in, because any conclusions one comes to based on the conductor's personal life will be filtered through one's own experiences. And then of course the person reading your conclusions must also take their _own_ personal life into account when considering your conclusions...
> 
> Yeah. Better to stick to the music.


But this is art, and what is more human than that? I think it's just a posture to say that we can objectify music away from all of its human factors, and that when we do, we are distancing ourselves from it in such a way as to rob ourselves of the true meaning and impact of it. But all art is filtered through experience, and our experience will be the true depth of that.


----------



## Xaltotun

There was a discussion about the 9th symphony and resignation; I'll add a comment. Mahler's music usually conveys this idea to me: _the world is complex._ It is as if he tries to understand the world, tries to stamp a label on it, and repeatedly fails (because of honesty to what he perceives as true). Then, because I _do_ think that the 9th is largely about death, the ultimate reducer and labeler, it is as if he's in a state of nervousness and anxiety, trying to absorb everything in the world and utter the world in music so that the final chord would be his death. Ever true to his perceptions, he alternates between disappointment and ecstasy, and turns his eye on himself, his effort here, revealing even this huge artistic quest as just a small drop in the great sea of the world. He finds he still cannot utter the world with music - he cannot become the Jewish God! - so he finally settles on his most private feelings, and gives us in this microcosm of pain and joy a rather wonderful view of the macrocosm as well. Man cannot be God, but Man was made in God's image after all, so maybe the Faustian Man can be at his most Godlike when being... Man. There is no final chord, just a fadeout. Maybe Freud would call it the reality principle triumphing over the pleasure principle. Maybe we can call it resignation, but we can also call it maturity or... well, just the opposite of a mad delusion.


----------



## isorhythm

Woodduck said:


> Bernstein was a man prone to extremes - of feeling, thought, and behavior. In Mahler's hyperexpressive music he felt, rightly or wrongly, a kindred spirit. His views on Mahler's music and what it's about are personal but worth considering for the insights they offer. I hear a powerful consciousness of mortality, and a wrestling with it, in the 9th and elsewhere in Mahler's works, and most certainly in the finale of that symphony: its descending melodic contours, its falling cadences, its yearning and repeatedly renewed pushing against that descent, its strange dark murmurings and lonely interludes, its reluctance to let go, it's final exhaustion and stillness heavy with love, longing, and acceptance ... Interpreting this as a "farewell" to life may be going too far, but hearing a spirit striving to come to terms with its mortality may not be.
> 
> If Lenny can make the music sound like this, I'm for giving him a break.


I thought I was the only person who liked this recording! Critical consensus seems to be that it's his worst Ninth but I don't agree.


----------



## Woodduck

isorhythm said:


> I thought I was the only person who liked this recording! Critical consensus seems to be that it's his worst Ninth but I don't agree.


I'm no Mahler afficionado, and those who are no doubt have their (varying) ideas of how Mahler's music should sound, but I think this movement at least is quite compelling. Mahler did, after all, come from a tradition of music-making which valued interpretive subjectivity and freedom, and I gather that some feel that Bernstein goes too far in that respect. His "excesses" rarely bother me in any music he conducts, even if his interpretations aren't my favorites. If one gets too drunk on decadent emotionalism one can always don a hair shirt and self-flagellate with Roger Norrington.


----------



## Becca

Bertrand Russell wrote: _"Nothing great is achieved without passion, but underneath the passion there should always be that large impersonal survey which sets limits to actions that our passions inspire."_

Interestingly this quotation was found amongst Sir John Barbirolli's papers after his death. I attended a concert with the Los Angeles Philharmonic where Barbirolli conducted the Mahler 9th not very long before his untimely death and that performance along with his great recording with the Berlin Philharmonic are testimony to his belief in Russell's quote and how, in my view, it is necessary in performing the Mahler symphonies, particularly the later ones.


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## Marschallin Blair

Becca said:


> Bertrand Russell wrote: _"Nothing great is achieved without passion, but underneath the passion there should always be that large impersonal survey which sets limits to actions that our passions inspire."_
> 
> Interestingly this quotation was found amongst Sir John Barbirolli's papers after his death. I attended a concert with the Los Angeles Philharmonic where Barbirolli conducted the Mahler 9th not very long before his untimely death and that performance along with his great recording with the Berlin Philharmonic are testimony to his belief in Russell's quote and how, in my view, it is necessary in performing the Mahler symphonies, particularly the later ones.


Bertrand Russell had some good one liners too.

When someone made a logical objection to a contradictory point Russell was making, all he could blurt out in defense was, "Logical fiddlesticks!"

- This from the co-author of _Principia Mathematica._


----------



## Becca

Marschallin Blair said:


> Bertrand Russell had some good one liners too.
> 
> When someone made a logical objection to a contradictory point Russell was making, all he could blurt out in defense was, "Logical fiddlesticks!"
> 
> - This from the co-author of _Principia Mathematica._


I realize that the quote is a very, very un-Blairian thought and I had anticipated a response


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Becca said:


> I realize that the quote is a very, very un-Blairian thought and I had anticipated a response












True enough, Becca._ ;D_

Its other people's jobs to be smart, and charming, and wonderful- and to entertain me.


----------



## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> It's disturbing when you apply humanity to music. For many, art is best when it is 'artifice.'


What do you mean, "apply humanity to music"? I cannot make those words make any sense at all, and I have spent most of my life reading and writing and teaching other people to read and write.

When I read "For many, art is best when it is 'artifice'," I can only think, well, yeah, but art _is_ artifice. The three letters of art echoed in artifice are a dead giveaway, for one. And making things, fabricating artifices, is about as human as it gets.


----------



## Skilmarilion

I wonder whether all this speculation and conjecture concerning what Mahler's 9th - or any piece by anyone - "means" should count among the more futile endeavours one can think of.

An anecdote:

According to Philip Glass, when Dennis Russell Davies played through the third movement of Glass' 8th Symphony for the first time, he turned round and said to Glass: "this is the saddest music I have ever heard. What you were you thinking about when you wrote it?"

Glass' reaction was along the lines of: "Oh? It never really occurred to me that the music could come across like that. In terms of what I was thinking, I really couldn't tell you. I don't know".


----------



## Avey

This man's music gets me by. 





Thus.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

DiesIraeCX said:


> Going to my second live performance this upcoming September 19th at Jones Hall!
> 
> Gustav Mahler: Symphony #5
> Conductor: Andrés Orozco-Estrada
> Houston Symphony Orchestra


Thought I'd follow up with my thoughts of the performance last night. It was _amazing_, I truly was able to hear the advantages of live music, the dynamics of the instruments as they dialogued with each other. I heard sounds and details I have never heard in recordings. Great performance overall.

The opening work was "STOMP for orchestra" by John Corigliano who was in attendance, he came out before the performance and gave the audience a few words and background information about the piece.


----------



## Heliogabo

Last friday concert in Mexico city:
Gustav Mahler, symphony 2
London Philharmonic orchestra
Alondra de la Parra, cond.
Bellas artes chorus

It was a moving experience, 7000 or so souls reunited to listen to Mahler's music in Auditorio Nacional. It's been a longtime since Mahler's time has come. Aside this, the orchestra is first class and Alondra de la Parra is an amazing conductor. She made a terrific work with this symphony. 
As Dies Irae says, there are many details on Mahler's symphonies that is not possible to hear on a recording. Even the finest recordings are 2D sound, but Mahler symphonies are 4D music. Until now I've heard symphonies 1, 3, 5, and 2 in concert; and in the last three there are sound effects that is not possible to appreciate on a recording, not to my ears at least.


----------



## Weston

I listened to parts of Mahler's 2nd symphony and was surprised to hear the opening of movement 3. Is this not almost an identical theme to the Symphony No. 1, movement 2?

I hope this means a little of this music is sticking in my head finally.


----------



## elgar's ghost

^
^

I see what you mean - I can't say I've ever compared the two movements before but now I think about them it there is a similarity in mood - both sound mocking and sardonic and the movement from the 2nd symphony also has softer Jewish-sounding folk elements if not as pronounced as those from the 1st. 

When I first heard the Wunderhorn song "Des Antonius von Padua Fischpredigt" I had to check with the sleevenotes to see if there was a connection with Mahler's 2nd as the sleevenotes to my then only recording of the symphony didn't mention it.

EDIT: Sorry, Weston - you're referring to the 2nd movement of symphony no. 1 whereas I misunderstood and was talking about the 3rd movement.


----------



## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> I listened to parts of Mahler's 2nd symphony and was surprised to hear the opening of movement 3. Is this not almost an identical theme to the Symphony No. 1, movement 2?
> 
> I hope this means a little of this music is sticking in my head finally.


Well, they both have themes with prominent dominant upbeats, but this is common in a lot of Mahler's themes. They're also both scherzos.


----------



## Sherkel

Mahler's music has mystified me with its depth and scale over the last three years, and has been especially important to me as of late. Tennstedt's recording of the 6th symphony is unreal. (Though I've ran into a bit of a problem with that symphony recently; every time I hear it, it speaks to me more deeply than before, and now it's starting to border on overwhelming! Not sure exactly what to do about that.)


----------



## Vaneyes

Sherkel said:


> Mahler's music has mystified me with its depth and scale over the last three years, and has been especially important to me as of late. Tennstedt's recording of the 6th symphony is unreal. (Though I've ran into a bit of a problem with that symphony recently; every time I hear it, it speaks to me more deeply than before, and now it's starting to border on overwhelming! Not sure exactly what to do about that.)


Don't take any chances. Take a temporary break from, and investigate Nono's works.


----------



## Sherkel

Vaneyes said:


> Don't take any chances. Take a temporary break from, and investigate Nono's works.


I'd never heard of him until now. What would you recommend I start with?


----------



## Ilarion

FWIW,

Mahler didn't come easy to me in my life - Quite late in my life he came knocking on my door(hahaha) - Then I opened the door, and I am glad I did...


----------



## Vaneyes

Sherkel said:


> I'd never heard of him until now. What would you recommend I start with?


_A Carlo Scarpa, architetto ai suoi infiniti possibili_


----------



## nightscape

I've been listening to his 10th for almost a month. I'm especially fixated on the final movement. What a gorgeous piece of writing that is. But for a while it was questionable whether I would ever give it a shot.

I became a fan of Mahler in 2000. I was a Junior in college and it was the year I decided to delve more fully into classical musical. As a result I picked up a symphony set of a composer unbeknownst to me. It was a bargain set of Solti/Chicago. I fell instantly in love with #2, and picked away at the set over a period of a few years. Over time I gathered a collection of more preferred recordings.

I was aware of the #10 adagio. For a long time I didn't pursue any more information. I had it in my head that there was nothing else, it was incomplete, what else was there to say? He died before getting past the first movement. Then I stumbled on recordings of the completed symphony but had no desire to bother with it. Why would I want some other composer's realization of Mahler? Blah. 

My understanding of the situation would be reshaped every so often when I would happen upon some other piece of information. My old prejudice was strong, but wavering; eroding bit by bit. But still I fought it. My listening experience would not be tainted! I would only tolerate 100% pure Mahler!

Finally, I heard Cooke's 1960 BBC lecture explaining the true nature of his performing edition and the true wealth of music Mahler actually wrote for the symphony. I had no idea. In a way I almost wouldn't allow myself to know. It shattered the remaining preconceived notions I had lingering. There were no other doubts; I was going to listen to this symphony. When I did, I was similarly angry at myself for missing out for so long and glad that I made a new friend. Credit to Cooke as well for this massive and legitimate undertaking.


----------



## Mahlerian

If people really wanted to follow Mahler's wishes, they wouldn't listen to the Adagio either. He told Alma to burn the manuscript for the whole work, and we should all be thankful that she didn't.


----------



## Vaneyes

'The Meaning of Mahler'

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/12/17/meaning-gustav-mahler/


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## juliante

I am struggling with final movt of the 6th. Loving the first 3 movts, but can't get to grips with 4th. Do I need to appreciate / listen in a broader context?


----------



## Mahlerian

juliante said:


> I am struggling with final movt of the 6th. Loving the first 3 movts, but can't get to grips with 4th. Do I need to appreciate / listen in a broader context?


What specifically seems difficult about it? Are the themes not memorable enough? Is it difficult to follow the form?


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## juliante

Mahlerian said:


> What specifically seems difficult about it? Are the themes not memorable enough? Is it difficult to follow the form?


That's a perfect summary. I think I was hoping for a feel like the last mvt of das lied. But I know people love the movt, eg steinberg in his book on the symphony. My feeling is keep listening and get a more rounded feel for it in the context of the whole symphony...but any other pointers gratefully received.


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## hpowders

juliante said:


> That's a perfect summary. I think I was hoping for a feel like the last mvt of das lied. But I know people love the movt, eg steinberg in his book on the symphony. My feeling is keep listening and get a more rounded feel for it in the context of the whole symphony...but any other pointers gratefully received.


I find that repetition is your friend when it comes to acknowledged great music that seems difficult to grasp at first hearing.

Keep playing that movement over and over, but NOT in quick succession. Play it one day. Play it the next day or a few days later. Continue to do that for weeks or months if you need to.

The human brain is miraculous in that sooner or later difficult music gets absorbed and one day it all starts making sense.


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## Pugg

Rediscovering this one:

​
*Mahler; Symphony no 7*
_New York Philharmonic/ Leonard Bernstein _:tiphat:


----------



## Mahlerian

juliante said:


> That's a perfect summary. I think I was hoping for a feel like the last mvt of das lied. But I know people love the movt, eg steinberg in his book on the symphony. My feeling is keep listening and get a more rounded feel for it in the context of the whole symphony...but any other pointers gratefully received.


I summarized the form of the movement here:

http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/mahlerian/1345-understanding-mahlers-sixth-symphony.html

With reference to Claudio Abbado's recording with the Berlin Philharmonic.

The second part of my analysis,

http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/mahlerian/1346-understanding-mahlers-sixth-symphony.html

goes over the movement in detail.

I think the whole symphony is one of Mahler's most amazing achievements, so you should definitely stick with the finale. It's a very rewarding movement.


----------



## juliante

Mahlerian said:


> I summarized the form of the movement here:
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/mahlerian/1345-understanding-mahlers-sixth-symphony.html
> 
> With reference to Claudio Abbado's recording with the Berlin Philharmonic.
> 
> The second part of my analysis,
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/mahlerian/1346-understanding-mahlers-sixth-symphony.html
> 
> goes over the movement in detail.
> 
> I think the whole symphony is one of Mahler's most amazing achievements, so you should definitely stick with the finale. It's a very rewarding movement.


Many thanks - a road map is what i needed. Much appreciated. Will report back.


----------



## Avey

Mahlerian said:


> I think the whole symphony is one of Mahler's most amazing achievements, so you should definitely stick with the finale. It's a very rewarding movement.


Sure, OK. We all know what an understatement that is.


----------



## EdwardBast

juliante said:


> Many thanks - a road map is what i needed. Much appreciated. Will report back.


I would pay attention in particular to the inter-movement connections Mahlerian discusses in the second part of his analysis. If you have already come to terms with the earlier movements, understanding how the earlier ideas appear and are reinterpreted in the finale should help you get a picture of how the finale functions in the whole. At least that is the approach that tends to work for me.


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## isorhythm

I heard Haitink conduct Mahler's 9th with the NYPhil last night. Incredibly intense. What a piece.


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## hpowders

Mahler 9th. Beg to disagree.

The movement to listen to is the Rondo Burleske. The greatest movement Mahler ever composed.


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## isorhythm

Interesting, that's the last movement I came around to.

It took me a long time to get into the 9th, which is now one of my favorite pieces. It was totally opaque to me at first.


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## Becca

There is a tendency of some to look on the Mahler 9th as a farewell. Leonard Bernstein made a particular point of that both in words and recordings. However if you get to know the 10th, which Mahler had completed in short score and partly orchestrated, it becomes clear that the 9th was anything but a farewell, rather it was part of a larger canvas in a manner somewhat akin to how the 6th was to the 7th.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

hpowders said:


> The movement to listen to is the Rondo Burleske. The greatest movement Mahler ever composed.


Does anybody else detect a hint of the "second subject" from Strauss's _Radetzky March_ in the Rondo-Burleske? I've often thought so, but I haven't found anyone else who's picked up on this. It's only fleeting, but an example "quote" occurs here:






Here's the relevant part of _Radetzky_ for comparison:


----------



## Vaneyes

*The Mahler (Conducting) Competition* begins May 6, 2016.

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_news.php?id=3729

https://www.bamberger-symphoniker.de/en/the-mahler-competition.html


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## Meyerbeer Smith

I've just listened to the 5th. Quite jolly.


----------



## clavichorder

EricIsAPolarBear said:


> I don't know if Mahler fans acccept that Mahler is second in anything. I heard that he is better than Kim Jong Il at golf!


I would second this.


----------



## clavichorder

But, believe it or not I have been listening and revisiting lots of work by Mahler over the last few months. I've really warmed up to symphony no. 3.


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## Pugg

SimonTemplar said:


> I've just listened to the 5th. Quite jolly.


For the very first time?


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## ViatorDei

Dear Mahler,

I thank God for you and I pray that he rest your soul. Thank you for the beautiful world of music you created. Ever since I first listened to those opening bars of your ninth symphony fifteen years ago when I was fifteen years old, I knew I was entering a strange world of exceptional beauty that has intoxicated me for countless hours and days ever since. No other music so expresses the human heart's aching for our heavenly homeland, the love of this earth's beauty, and the drama of man's precarious existence here. How many times has your music made my heart soar over the mountains, reel with terror in the abyss, shake with awe before the Light of Glory, and sigh with sweet resignation in the peaceful valleys. No other music has made my soul quiver with such rapture in the presence of the Good, the True, and the Beautiful. For all this, I thank you. Yours certainly was a great soul with the artistic genius to express such grandiosity in such brilliant eloquence. Thanks, a thousand thanks.

-A fellow wandering soul


----------



## Pugg

ViatorDei said:


> Dear Mahler,
> 
> I thank God for you and I pray that he rest your soul. Thank you for the beautiful world of music you created. Ever since I first listened to those opening bars of your ninth symphony fifteen years ago when I was fifteen years old, I knew I was entering a strange world of exceptional beauty that has intoxicated me for countless hours and days ever since. No other music so expresses the human heart's aching for our heavenly homeland, the love of this earth's beauty, and the drama of man's precarious existence here. How many times has your music made my heart soar over the mountains, reel with terror in the abyss, shake with awe before the Light of Glory, and sigh with sweet resignation in the peaceful valleys. No other music has made my soul quiver with such rapture in the presence of the Good, the True, and the Beautiful. For all this, I thank you. Yours certainly was a great soul with the artistic genius to express such grandiosity in such brilliant eloquence. Thanks, a thousand thanks.
> 
> -A fellow wandering soul


Do you have to bring religion in all tour post?


----------



## Avey

Because it was 105 years ago. And I just heard this on the radio, which I thought was a magical arrangement:


----------



## Xenakiboy

Instead of a long post here I'll just say tell you that; after I heard Mahler's 9th for the first time (years ago), I felt like a changed person.


----------



## dieter

Pugg said:


> Do you have to bring religion in all tour post?


The above was was my first encounter with Viator Dei: I overlooked the hyperbolic references, identified with the 'wandering soul'. I've since read the Bruckner and Conductor thread and, like you, wish he'd keep his religion to himself. What's music got to do with religion?


----------



## Vaneyes

Pugg said:


> Do you have to bring religion in all tour post?


"I've been converted five times. Billy Sunday, Reverend Biederwolf, Gypsy Smith, and twice by Sister Falconer. I get terrible drunk, and then I get good and saved. Both of them done me a powerful lot of good - gettin' drunk and gettin' saved. Well, good night." - Clean-up Man


----------



## ViatorDei

A note of clarification: The subtitle of the sub-forum, "Leave your favourite a message!", inspired me to leave my favorites a message. I am a Catholic writing to fellow Catholics (Bruckner and Mahler, though Mahler's Catholicism is somewhat a subject for debate). I fail to understand what the difficulty is with what I wrote; all are free to ignore them. Furthermore, I think it somewhat naïve to question the relevance of religion particularly in these composers' music which is so imbued with religious themes. This is not really a discussion I want to get into nor is this the place, but I would like to leave for your consideration this passage from an interview with Bruno Walter, who knew both men personally:

"_Above all, however, Mahler and Bruckner are (though in different ways) religious beings. An essential part of their musical inspiration wells from this devotional depth. It is a main source of their thematic wealth, swaying an all-important field of expression in their works; it produces the high-water mark of their musical surf. The tonal idiom of both is devoid of eroticism. Often inclined to pathos, powerful tragedy, and emotional extremes of utterance, they attain climaxes of high ecstasy. Clear sunshine and blue sky seldom appear in the wholly un-Mediterranean atmosphere of their music. . . .   Mahler's noble peace and solemnity, his lofty transfiguration are the fruits of conquest; with Bruckner they are innate gifts. Bruckner's musical message stems from the sphere of the saints; in Mahler speaks the impassioned prophet. He is ever renewing the battle, ending in mild resignation, while Bruckner's tone-world radiates unshakable, consoling affirmation. We find, as already stated, the inexhaustible wealth of the Bruckner music spread over a correspondingly boundless, though in itself not highly varied realm of expression, for which the two verbal directions, "feierlich" (solemnly) and "innig' (heartfelt), most often employed by him, almost sufficed, were it not for the richly differentiated scherzi that remind us of the wealth of the humoristic external ornaments of impressive Gothic cathedrals. . . .   Mahler was, like Bruckner, the bearer of a transcendental mission, a spiritual sage and guide, master of an inspired tonal language enriched and enhanced by himself. The tongues of both had, like that of Isaiah, been touched and consecrated by the fiery coal of the altar of the Lord and the threefold "Sanctus" of the seraphim was the inmost meaning of their message. . . .   It is rather his work that reveals the true greatness of his faith and his relationship to God. Not only his Masses, his Te Deum, his devotional choral works, but his symphonies also (and these before all) sprang from this fundamental religious feeling that swayed Bruckner's entire spirit. He did not have to struggle toward God; he believed. " _(Bruno Walter, Chord and Dischord)


----------



## violadude

The day of my Grandpa's Memorial service, I had a chance to see the Modesto Symphony perform Mahler's 2nd. It was incredible to hear it live, the acoustics of the venue was great and the conductor had a very good interpretation. He also did NOT hold back. Those percussion crescendos in the last movement were earth shaking! 

I'm usually not one to bring tons of extramusical references when describing music, but hearing that "cry of terror" that begins the finale, it felt to me almost like the very fabric of the universe was being torn apart. It was crazy (same with it's appearance near the middle of the movement, and a little less so in the 3rd movement).


----------



## Vaneyes




----------



## dieter

ViatorDei said:


> A note of clarification: The subtitle of the sub-forum, "Leave your favourite a message!", inspired me to leave my favorites a message. I am a Catholic writing to fellow Catholics (Bruckner and Mahler, though Mahler's Catholicism is somewhat a subject for debate). I fail to understand what the difficulty is with what I wrote; all are free to ignore them. Furthermore, I think it somewhat naïve to question the relevance of religion particularly in these composers' music which is so imbued with religious themes. This is not really a discussion I want to get into nor is this the place, but I would like to leave for your consideration this passage from an interview with Bruno Walter, who knew both men personally:
> 
> "_Above all, however, Mahler and Bruckner are (though in different ways) religious beings. An essential part of their musical inspiration wells from this devotional depth. It is a main source of their thematic wealth, swaying an all-important field of expression in their works; it produces the high-water mark of their musical surf. The tonal idiom of both is devoid of eroticism. Often inclined to pathos, powerful tragedy, and emotional extremes of utterance, they attain climaxes of high ecstasy. Clear sunshine and blue sky seldom appear in the wholly un-Mediterranean atmosphere of their music. . . .   Mahler's noble peace and solemnity, his lofty transfiguration are the fruits of conquest; with Bruckner they are innate gifts. Bruckner's musical message stems from the sphere of the saints; in Mahler speaks the impassioned prophet. He is ever renewing the battle, ending in mild resignation, while Bruckner's tone-world radiates unshakable, consoling affirmation. We find, as already stated, the inexhaustible wealth of the Bruckner music spread over a correspondingly boundless, though in itself not highly varied realm of expression, for which the two verbal directions, "feierlich" (solemnly) and "innig' (heartfelt), most often employed by him, almost sufficed, were it not for the richly differentiated scherzi that remind us of the wealth of the humoristic external ornaments of impressive Gothic cathedrals. . . .   Mahler was, like Bruckner, the bearer of a transcendental mission, a spiritual sage and guide, master of an inspired tonal language enriched and enhanced by himself. The tongues of both had, like that of Isaiah, been touched and consecrated by the fiery coal of the altar of the Lord and the threefold "Sanctus" of the seraphim was the inmost meaning of their message. . . .   It is rather his work that reveals the true greatness of his faith and his relationship to God. Not only his Masses, his Te Deum, his devotional choral works, but his symphonies also (and these before all) sprang from this fundamental religious feeling that swayed Bruckner's entire spirit. He did not have to struggle toward God; he believed. " _(Bruno Walter, Chord and Dischord)


Fair enough. But, for the record, I was bought up a so-called Catholic and I rejected it at 14, mainly because I don't believe in mumbo jumbo. If you do, that's fine, but, as Lou Reed once said, 'It's not what I wanna hear all night long.'


----------



## dzc4627

For the past few months I have been absorbing Mahler chronologically, listening to each symphony multiple times and becoming immersed in each one.

I can confidently say that Mahler has become my favorite composer and no other composer has moved me and inspired my more profoundly, which is weird to say. No other composer has more passionately painted the picture of a beautiful world.

This being said, I'd say the 9th is my favorite. Hands down. It is also my favorite piece of music. Each of the movements hits right on the mark. If I had to rank them:

1. 9th
2. 8.5th (Das Lied von Der Erde)
3. Tie of 7th/6th/2nd
4. 3rd
5. 8th
6. 5th
7. 10th (so low because it is only 1 movement, and even that one movement has some key faults that bring it so low despite the piece having incredible moments)
8. 1st
9. 4th

I find that listening to Mahler is best when in nature. I put ripped CD files onto my phone and listen with earbuds while on walks and hikes. I'll never forget hiking to Kearsarge pass in the Sierra Mountains and after 4 hours making it to the top, only to see this view: http://i.imgur.com/nfRXmHa.jpg accompanied by the 3rd climax of the 9th, 1st mvt (the one introduced by the trumpet fanfare).


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## Mahlerian

dzc4627 said:


> 7. 10th (so low because it is only 1 movement, and even that one movement has some key faults that bring it so low despite the piece having incredible moments)


No, Mahler wrote five movements of his 10th Symphony, which is absolutely complete in terms of structure (to the point where it likely wouldn't be a bar shorter or longer if he had lived another year or two to orchestrate it).


----------



## dzc4627

Mahlerian said:


> No, Mahler wrote five movements of his 10th Symphony, which is absolutely complete in terms of structure (to the point where it likely wouldn't be a bar shorter or longer if he had lived another year or two to orchestrate it).


I'm aware... I have heard the entire thing, multiple versions too. I try not to criticize the entire symphony as it is not genuine Mahler. And so, I also don't count the other movements as officially Mahler as he could have easily redone the entire thing or scrapped some bits etc. So I just take the 1st movement as its own thing (even though I have heard the entire thing multiple times), due to the uncertainty that surrounds the other 4 movements. The only reason I included the 10th in the list is because the movement by itself has enough merit for me for it to surpass the 1st and 4th. For now at least. My opinion could waver.


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## SixFootScowl

Mahlerian said:


> No, Mahler wrote five movements of his 10th Symphony, which is absolutely complete in terms of structure (to the point where it likely wouldn't be a bar shorter or longer if he had lived another year or two to orchestrate it).


I only have the first part but am curious to have the whole symphony. What is the best version of Mahler #10 to get, the one most likely what Mahler intended?


----------



## Mahlerian

dzc4627 said:


> I'm aware... I have heard the entire thing, multiple versions too. I try not to criticize the entire symphony as it is not genuine Mahler. And so, I also don't count the other movements as officially Mahler as he could have easily redone the entire thing or scrapped some bits etc. So I just take the 1st movement as its own thing (even though I have heard the entire thing multiple times), due to the uncertainty that surrounds the other 4 movements. The only reason I included the 10th in the list is because the movement by itself has enough merit for me for it to surpass the 1st and 4th. For now at least. My opinion could waver.


It is genuine Mahler, though. He would not have redone the entire thing or scrapped anything, unless he went against his entire working process to do so. Like I said, he would not have altered the basic content of even a single bar.



Florestan said:


> I only have the first part but am curious to have the whole symphony. What is the best version of Mahler #10 to get, the one most likely what Mahler intended?


Any version aside from the Carpenter will do. Most people won't be able to tell the differences, which are relatively small.


----------



## Becca

Florestan said:


> I only have the first part but am curious to have the whole symphony. What is the best version of Mahler #10 to get, the one most likely what Mahler intended?


After listening to all of them, my vote would be for Cooke III (i.e. Berlin Phil/Rattle or Vienna Phil/Harding) with the revised Mazzetti as a close second (Cincinnati/Lopez Cobos). I agree with Mahlerian, stay away from the Carpenter (Dallas/Litton).

As I noted elsewhere recently in reference to the Bruckner 9th, I have never understood why the dubious completion of Mozart's Requiem are accepted and the Mahler 10th & Bruckner 9th are not when they existed in far more finished form.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Thanks. Not one to waste any time, I grabbed the Rattle-conducted 10th. It was only about 38 cents plus shipping.

Seems most (if not all) box sets of "complete" Mahler symphonies only include the adagio of Symphony 10.


----------



## dzc4627

Mahlerian said:


> It is genuine Mahler, though. He would not have redone the entire thing or scrapped anything, unless he went against his entire working process to do so. Like I said, he would not have altered the basic content of even a single bar.
> 
> Any version aside from the Carpenter will do. Most people won't be able to tell the differences, which are relatively small.


Good point on the working process. If I am to take the entire 10th as it stands, though, I guess it is sad for me because the 10th has been kind of disappointing overall. I'd argue though that because of the orchestration and the lack of filling parts in many places, it isn't genuine Mahler.


----------



## jburde

Tomorrow I'm going to have my first experience of hearing Mahler live. I've listened to multiple recordings of just about every symphony (except the Eighth) but I'm very excited to see the BSO perform the 9th at Tanglewood tomorrow. I hope their new conductor does it justice!!


----------



## Pugg

jburde said:


> Tomorrow I'm going to have my first experience of hearing Mahler live. I've listened to multiple recordings of just about every symphony (except the Eighth) but I'm very excited to see the BSO perform the 9th at Tanglewood tomorrow. I hope their new conductor does it justice!!


Who's conducting?


----------



## Mahlerian

Pugg said:


> Who's conducting?


Andris Nelsons.



jburde said:


> Tomorrow I'm going to have my first experience of hearing Mahler live. I've listened to multiple recordings of just about every symphony (except the Eighth) but I'm very excited to see the BSO perform the 9th at Tanglewood tomorrow. I hope their new conductor does it justice!!


Hope it's a great performance. I caught the broadcast when Nelsons did it during the season, and he did a fine job, so I'd be optimistic about tomorrow's performance.


----------



## Vronsky

Mahlerian, what do you think / how do you rate Simon Rattle's complete cycle of Mahler symphonies (& Songs)?


----------



## Mahlerian

Vronsky said:


> Mahlerian, what do you think / how do you rate Simon Rattle's complete cycle of Mahler symphonies (& Songs)?


I haven't heard all of it, but my feelings are decidedly mixed. The Second, Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth are the ones I have heard in full (or remember having heard in full rather), and only the Fourth struck me as vying with the best recordings of the work. Sometimes his take strikes me as too perfunctory and other times it strikes me as taking too many liberties (that don't work).

His Mahler recordings don't bother me as much as Karajan's or Gergiev's, though, or even Reiner's Das Lied. None of them seem to grasp Mahler's style. Rattle knows and loves Mahler, and it shows in his interpretations, but I still feel that they're not especially insightful (the same goes for his treatment of the Second Viennese School).


----------



## Chronochromie

Mahlerian said:


> I haven't heard all of it, but my feelings are decidedly mixed. The Second, Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth are the ones I have heard in full (or remember having heard in full rather), and only the Fourth struck me as vying with the best recordings of the work. Sometimes his take strikes me as too perfunctory and other times it strikes me as taking too many liberties (that don't work).
> 
> His Mahler recordings don't bother me as much as Karajan's or Gergiev's, though, or even Reiner's Das Lied. None of them seem to grasp Mahler's style. Rattle knows and loves Mahler, and it shows in his interpretations, but I still feel that they're not especially insightful (the same goes for his treatment of the Second Viennese School).


What about Kubelik's cycle? Or his live Audite recordings? We seem to have very different taste in Mahler recordings and you never mentioned Kubelik's Mahler as far as I can remember.


----------



## Mahlerian

Chronochromie said:


> What about Kubelik's cycle? Or his live Audite recordings? We seem to have very different taste in Mahler recordings and you never mentioned Kubelik's Mahler as far as I can remember.


I did like his famous First, but haven't really taken the time to explore his cycle in detail.


----------



## Merl

Kubelik's live Mahler First on Audite is great.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Two things come up:

1) having some trouble digesting Mahler #8 and I think partly is that I need a very clear recording. Bernstein's 1960s recording is probably not the clearest because of that era's recording technology. So what is a really good 8h that has very good clarity?

2) I was reminded that Mahler reorchestrated Beethoven's ninth. I always avoided it, but what is your recommendation now that I am a Mahler addict? Should I still avoid it? If not, then what is a good recording?


----------



## Merl

Florestan, I'm kinda with you on Mahler 8. I find it his hardest work to get into. I have numerous recordings of the 8th. The first one I had was the classic Solti one but some of the the newer versions are so much clearer, soundwise, although not as aggressive as Solti's! Personally, I'd recommend Bertini, Chailly, Abbado and Gielen of the 'more modern' versions. I've been listening to Bertini's Mahler cycle a lot while I've been on holiday and it's really surprised me how good it is. His 1st is as good as any I already own and the sound across the whole set is superb. People who have this set really rate it and rightly so. I'll be honest, Chailly can do little wrong for me in his symphony cycles. His Beethoven is superb, his Brahms similarly and his Mahler sounds amazing. I know Hurwitz raved about his Mahler 8 (he also raved about Anton Wit's account on Naxos, if I recall and you can buy that for pennies on Amazon). I'm gonna give #8 another go tomorrow. Might try Tennstedt's version. Not really played that cycle much.


----------



## Merl

As far as the re-orchestrated Beethoven 9th is concerned the only one I own is one on the Bridge label with Tiboris and the BRNO. It was interesting at first but ultimately sounds a bit crap and it'll never surpass my original great Beethoven 9ths (Leinsdorf, Chailly, etc). It's a curiosity. It will always stay that for me. I've always thought of it as trying to re-write Led Zeppelin's 'Stairway to Heaven' by adding 10 acoustic guitars (some playing counter-rhythms) and a battery of additional drums and extra Les Pauls to bolster the heavy part. It doesnt really work at all.


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## SixFootScowl

Merl said:


> Florestan, I'm kinda with you on Mahler 8. I find it his hardest work to get into. I have numerous recordings of the 8th. The first one I had was the classic Solti one but some of the the newer versions are so much clearer, soundwise, although not as aggressive as Solti's! Personally, I'd recommend Bertini, Chailly, Abbado and Gielen of the 'more modern' versions. I've been listening to Bertini's Mahler cycle a lot while I've been on holiday and it's really surprised me how good it is. His 1st is as good as any I already own and the sound across the whole set is superb. People who have this set really rate it and rightly so. I'll be honest, Chailly can do little wrong for me in his symphony cycles. His Beethoven is superb, his Brahms similarly and his Mahler sounds amazing. I know Hurwitz raved about his Mahler 8 (he also raved about Anton Wit's account on Naxos, if I recall and you can buy that for pennies on Amazon). I'm gonna give #8 another go tomorrow. Might try Tennstedt's version. Not really played that cycle much.


I'll look into your recommendations. Ha, Bertini, it costs as much for a copy of the 8th as I can get the whole cycle. If I am going with Bertini, then the decision is easy. :lol:


----------



## KenOC

Merl said:


> As far as the re-orchestrated Beethoven 9th is concerned the only one I own is one on the Bridge label with Tiboris and the BRNO.


Also available from one of the Jarvi boys. Good recording, mediocre performance. I thought some of Mahler's ideas worked pretty well.


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## Merl

You can listen to some of that Jarvi recording on youtube. Sounds ok but he doesnt give it enough 'umph'.


----------



## Becca

One of the most interesting 8th's that I have heard was done at a Proms concert by the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain with Simon Rattle conducting and is available on YouTube. There is something about the live performance, the excitement of a youth orchestra and the acoustics of the Royal Albert Hall which make for a fascinating performance.


----------



## Merl

Becca said:


> There is something about the live performance, the excitement of a youth orchestra..............................which make for a fascinating performance.


I'm the same with this one. Young orchestra - Great account.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Merl, you absolutely must check out Beethoven's Ninth conducted by Ferenc Fricsay. It is the best Ninth.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Becca said:


> One of the most interesting 8th's that I have heard was done at a Proms concert by the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain with Simon Rattle conducting and is available on YouTube. There is something about the live performance, the excitement of a youth orchestra and the acoustics of the Royal Albert Hall which make for a fascinating performance.


Not only that, but watching it instead of just listening makes for a fuller experience.


----------



## Pugg

​Unbeatable.
If you want a other approach and view , Bernstein on DG .


----------



## Lenny

Florestan said:


> 1) having some trouble digesting Mahler #8 and I think partly is that I need a very clear recording.


#8 has one of the most powerful openings, if not the most, in my opinion. I was hooked instantly from the very first listen. Incredible opening. It digests me.


----------



## Merl

Florestan said:


> Merl, you absolutely must check out Beethoven's Ninth conducted by Ferenc Fricsay. It is the best Ninth.


It's dirt cheap on Amazon. I might buy it on your recommendation, Florestan. However, if I don't like it I will hunt you down, I WILL find you and I will kill you. It sounds extreme, I know. :-D


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## chesapeake bay

Pugg said:


> ​Unbeatable.
> If you want a other approach and view , Bernstein on DG .


This is my favorite as well


----------



## Mahlerian

Florestan said:


> 1) having some trouble digesting Mahler #8 and I think partly is that I need a very clear recording. Bernstein's 1960s recording is probably not the clearest because of that era's recording technology. So what is a really good 8h that has very good clarity?


My favorite Eighth is Tennstedt's live version, which has a few issues (the tenor is poor) but a sweep and inevitability like no other:










The Solti was the first version I loved, but once I came to this one, I've barely looked back.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Becca said:


> One of the most interesting 8th's that I have heard was done at a Proms concert by the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain with Simon Rattle conducting


For me, it's Rattle's best account of the 8th by some margin. I wish the BBC would issue it as an audio recording.

On a related note, I'm a huge fan of Horenstein's 1959 account, also performed live at the Albert Hall. An electrifying rendition in surprisingly good sound, given its age and the somewhat idiosyncratic recording technique used.


----------



## Guest

Anyone familiar with this recording?


----------



## SixFootScowl

Merl said:


> It's dirt cheap on Amazon. I might buy it on your recommendation, Florestan. However, if I don't like it I will hunt you down, I WILL find you and I will kill you. It sounds extreme, I know. :-D


I am pretty confident that you will like the Fricsay LvB Ninth.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Mahlerian said:


> My favorite Eighth is Tennstedt's live version, which has a few issues (the tenor is poor) but a sweep and inevitability like no other:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Solti was the first version I loved, but once I came to this one, I've barely looked back.


"The tenor is poor" Yeah, most tenors are to me. I find it hard to listen to many tenors as they are in a range that can be irritating to my ear.

I meant to watch part of that 8th on You Tube late last night, but got caught up on Amazon checking out Mahler 8ths. The live Tennstedt does look like the best one to get and right now only price holds me back because the Bernstein Mahler 8th is very highly rated too and I already have it.

I finally finished Bernstein's Mahler 8th in the car (my best audio setup) today and really loved the ending. I also like that it opens and closes with organ and choir seemingly as if the symphony had been split in the middle of such section and reassembled with the split making up the beginning and end. But there is so much more to the 8th that I have not grasped yet because it is a very busy symphony, much going on, that one needs many listens to gain any kind of familiarity. I am working on it.

So here are the Mahler 8ths that are in my saved for later Amazon cart for further consideration (others may be added as I only had an hour to scope things out last night):

Tennstedt live
Boulez
Chailly
Shaw and the Atlanta Symphony (highly rated and low priced)
Bertini (whole cycle because the one symphony costs as much)
Markus Stenz (pricy but highly rated)

Bear in mind I am looking for a more modern recording for clarity so did not include Solti even though it gets rave reviews by many. But what of the above contrasts best with my 1960s Bernstein cycle?


----------



## Mahlerian

Florestan said:


> I also like that it opens and closes with organ and choir seemingly as if the symphony had been split in the middle of such section and reassembled with the split making up the beginning and end. But there is so much more to the 8th that I have not grasped yet because it is a very busy symphony, much going on, that one needs many listens to gain any kind of familiarity. I am working on it.


The Eighth, as much as any Mahler symphony and more than some of them, repays familiarity greatly. Pretty much every single element develops audibly out of the opening few minutes, and the way they accumulate to reach the final climax makes for a breathtaking experience. I can't pretend that I got it on a first hearing, or second...



Florestan said:


> So here are the Mahler 8ths that are in my saved for later Amazon cart for further consideration (others may be added as I only had an hour to scope things out last night):
> 
> Tennstedt live
> Boulez
> Shaw and the Atlanta Symphony (highly rated and low priced)
> Bertini (whole cycle because the one symphony costs as much)
> 
> Bear in mind I am looking for a more modern recording for clarity so did not include Solti even though it gets rave reviews by many. But what of the above contrasts best with my 1960s Bernstein cycle?


I didn't care for Shaw's at all, which is fast-paced and rather perfunctory (the latter not being a necessary outcome of the former). Boulez's may be the most clear, as he is famous for his clarity, and it's also on the fleet-footed side. His Mahler is polarizing but I find makes an interesting and worthwhile second take on any given work.


----------



## Merl

What about Chailly? I listened to that this morning and the recording is brilliant.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Merl said:


> What about Chailly? I listened to that this morning and the recording is brilliant.


While Mahlerian was responding I added Chailly and a lesser-known Stenz to my post above.


----------



## Becca

Pugg said:


> ​Unbeatable.


There is no such thing as an unbeatable recording or performance.


----------



## dzc4627

Solti is the only 8th I have really enjoyed so far.


----------



## Azol

Chailly has two versions of M8: the one with Royal Concertgebouw on audio CD and the other with Gewandhaus Orchestra on video DVD/Blu-ray. Both are excellent, the audio has Heppner, the video has Gould. Ben Heppner comes closer to what Rene Kollo did in Solti recording, which I adore. Solti did set a milestone for M8 for many, many years to come.
But get Chailly if you are looking for all-around satisfying modern recording of M8.


----------



## Pugg

Becca said:


> There is no such thing as an unbeatable recording or performance.


Strange, I've seen that opinion came along many times in other topic's, not necessary by you I add strongly.

Erratum: See how different the views are on this work.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/w/...No-8-in-E-flat-major-'Symphony-of-a-Thousand'


----------



## Merl

I find it hard to give definitive versions of any work because much depends on my mood and then someone new comes along every now and then and offer different accounts in beautiful sound. I thought Kleiber's was the definitive Beethoven 7 but then along came Chailly, Fischer and Honeck. The same has happened with new Mahler I have discovered (especially Fischer and Honeck's newer accounts).


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Florestan said:


> So here are the Mahler 8ths that are in my saved for later Amazon cart for further consideration (others may be added as I only had an hour to scope things out last night):
> 
> Tennstedt live
> Boulez
> Chailly
> Shaw and the Atlanta Symphony (highly rated and low priced)
> Bertini
> Markus Stenz (pricy but highly rated)


Tennstedt live and Chailly are both safe choices, and offer different perspectives on the 8th; Tennstedt slightly more dynamic, Chailly more of a slow-burn, but no less effective. The Bertini is also very good, especially if you can get it cheaply as part of EMI/Warner's box set of the symphonies, which is one of the best available.

Of the others, Stenz's is excellent, but the sound-stage is a bit constricted at times, particularly when the choir kicks in... not something you want in the 8th symphony, really. I can recommend Stenz's complete Mahler box set as a whole - it's very fine - so you might be better off looking for a bargain version of that, rather than going after the 8th on its own.

I have the Shaw, but it's not one I've revisited too often; there's probably a good reason for that, but I can't be sure what it is


----------



## Merl

Never heard the Shaw. Very mixed reviews.


----------



## Azol

Nagano M8 is also very interesting, but tenor is not up to the task in my opinion.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Azol said:


> Ben Heppner comes closer to what Rene Kollo did in Solti recording.


I believe René Kollo recorded his part separately, and was dubbed in later. If so, that would explain why his performance on the Solti recording is so consistent throughout.


----------



## Becca

If you are interested in watching Mahler's Symphony of One Thousand Four Hundred, then...

Los Angeles Philharmonic and...
Simon Bolivar Symphony 
Gustavo Dudamel

I saw this simulcast at a movie theater and it was quite a good performance.






View attachment 86986


----------



## Aeneas

Mahler made me appreciate summer's nights.


----------



## Pugg

Aeneas said:


> Mahler made me appreciate summer's nights.


Please, do enlighten us?


----------



## SixFootScowl

Was just scoping Mahler 8s again. Here are what stood out to me.

Mahlerfest, conducted by Olson
Tilson-Thomas
Solti
Wit (NAXOS)


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Florestan said:


> Was just scoping Mahler 8s again. Here are what stood out to me.
> 
> Mahlerfest, conducted by Olson
> Tilson-Thomas
> Solti
> Wit (NAXOS)


I wasn't aware of the Olson, but will have to seek it out! Thanks for the tip.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I wasn't aware of the Olson, but will have to seek it out! Thanks for the tip.


It is pretty scarce. Available on the Mahlerfest website store. They have recorded it a number of times.


----------



## chesapeake bay

Florestan said:


> It is pretty scarce. Available on the Mahlerfest website store. They have recorded it a number of times.


Thats the Colorado Mahlerfest just to be precise


----------



## chesapeake bay

I'm still working on Mahler 8 I'm listening to:

Solti
Tennstedt (live)
Bernstein LSO
Segerstam
Tilson Thomas


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## SixFootScowl

The 1995 Colorado Mahlerfest 8th symphony impresses me so much that I went ahead and bought a copy. It gets a very good review here.

Found it on Amazon in this performance (CLIPS).


----------



## Becca

Glad to see that you found Tony Duggan's extensive Mahler reviews which I often reference. While I don't agree with him in all respects, he lays out his reasoning in a cogent manner such I can decide what will matter to me.


----------



## Oliver

dzc4627 said:


> For the past few months I have been absorbing Mahler chronologically, listening to each symphony multiple times and becoming immersed in each one.
> 
> I can confidently say that Mahler has become my favorite composer and no other composer has moved me and inspired my more profoundly, which is weird to say. No other composer has more passionately painted the picture of a beautiful world.
> 
> This being said, I'd say the 9th is my favorite. Hands down. It is also my favorite piece of music. Each of the movements hits right on the mark. If I had to rank them:
> 
> 1. 9th
> 2. 8.5th (Das Lied von Der Erde)
> 3. Tie of 7th/6th/2nd
> 4. 3rd
> 5. 8th
> 6. 5th
> 7. 10th (so low because it is only 1 movement, and even that one movement has some key faults that bring it so low despite the piece having incredible moments)
> 8. 1st
> 9. 4th
> 
> I find that listening to Mahler is best when in nature. I put ripped CD files onto my phone and listen with earbuds while on walks and hikes. I'll never forget hiking to Kearsarge pass in the Sierra Mountains and after 4 hours making it to the top, only to see this view: http://i.imgur.com/nfRXmHa.jpg accompanied by the 3rd climax of the 9th, 1st mvt (the one introduced by the trumpet fanfare).


Excellent. I did the exact same two summers ago. Don't forget Kindertotenlieder. His most moving works of all will be found in this tragic set of songs.


----------



## Merl

ChamberNut said:


> I don't enjoy his symphonies with vocal/choral.


I used to agree. After some intense listening I finally cracked most except the 8th, which I still find hard-going. I didn't get Mahler's 4th untll I got the Szell 4th. Before that I had a dreary version by Abbado which I eventually sent to the charity shop. Certainly agree that the 1st and 5th are still my favourites.


----------



## Retyc

Could anyone recommend me a recent (sounding, well done remasters are fine as well) recording of the 9th symphony?


----------



## Merl

Retyc said:


> Could anyone recommend me a recent (sounding, well done remasters are fine as well) recording of the 9th symphony?


Rattle (BPO), Bertini and Abbado


----------



## KirbyH

Retyc said:


> Could anyone recommend me a recent (sounding, well done remasters are fine as well) recording of the 9th symphony?


Dudamel/Los Angeles or Gergiev/London Symphony are both extraordinary - especially LA. The sound is beyond detailed and you get a lot of Mahler's instrumental richness that's missed in other recordings.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Florestan said:


> The 1995 Colorado Mahlerfest 8th symphony impresses me so much that I went ahead and bought a copy. It gets a very good review here.
> 
> Found it on Amazon in this performance (CLIPS).


There is a 2009 Mahler 8 from Colorado Mahlerfest that is available with free shipping (it was tempting but could not find clips):


----------



## SixFootScowl

Oh wow! Look what I just found out:

Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic will present Mahler's 7th at Hill Auditorium this November! 
http://ums.org/performance/berlin-philharmonic/


----------



## Becca

Florestan said:


> Oh wow! Look what I just found out:
> 
> Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic will present Mahler's 7th at Hill Auditorium this November!
> http://ums.org/performance/berlin-philharmonic/


I hope that you manage to get tickets but in case you don't, this program will be performed and live streamed from the Philharmonie on August 26th, also from the Proms in London on September 2nd - both via the Digital Concert Hall.


----------



## Merl

I've just been re-acquainting myself with Karajan's stunning live performance of the 9th. It's still a magnificent recording. Even sounds good on the living room stereo (which is crap). HvK didnt always nail it but when he did....wow!


----------



## Pugg

Merl said:


> I've just been re-acquainting myself with Karajan's stunning live performance of the 9th. It's still a magnificent recording. Even sounds good on the living room stereo (which is crap). HvK didnt always nail it but when he did....wow!


Stunting recording indeed although not everyone will agree .


----------



## Merl

I know not everyone liked Herbie the Caravan (thats what my ex-girlfriend thought he was called) but I have a bit of a soft spot for the self-publicising, egotistical fella. In fact I'm gonna stick my neck out and say this is the best Mahler 9th I own (*awaits large objects and insults to be thrown this way). Le snigger.


----------



## Mahlerian

Mahler wrote his Eighth in 1906, in a single burst of creativity that lasted around two months. The orchestration was finished later, as was his normal working process, but even then, he was proud enough of his work to show it off to Alma, and he played through it with her. Later that same year, she wrote him and attached a couple of fragments that she recalled from the piece, both from Part II. She didn't do a perfect job, and he crossed out some of what she had written and replaced it with his own version, but he was impressed with her musical memory all the same.

Arnold Schoenberg, who was present at the premiere of the Eighth in 1910, said that the work was the working out of a single idea of unprecedented length and breadth. For him, there could be no higher praise than this, as it implied that there was nothing extraneous to the work, nothing grafted on from the outside.

The myriad of connections one hears in the Eighth are a part of an ongoing process of growth that leads inevitably to its grand conclusion, and I feel that many who dismiss the work are unaware of this underlying process. On top of that, the work contains some fascinating orchestral touches, such as the klangfarbenmelodie in the development of Part I, and subtle details of construction, such as the rhythmic freedom at the beginning of Part II. It is not for nothing that Mahler at one point considered it his greatest work.


----------



## Merl

Mahlerian, do you rate any of Karajan's versions of the 9th? I have the 1989 version on DG with the VPO.


----------



## Mahlerian

Merl said:


> Mahlerian, do you rate any of Karajan's versions of the 8th? I have the 1989 version on DG with the VPO. I still find it a tough symphony to crack but in my ears the Karajan sounds really good.


Karajan didn't record the Eighth. Are you referring to his Ninth?

I have to confess, I dislike Karajan's Mahler in general (while enjoying his Bruckner and even his take on Schoenberg's Pelleas). The way he distorts the orchestral balances irks me, and he seems to ignore the phrasing of the music to even it out.


----------



## dzc4627

Florestan said:


> Oh wow! Look what I just found out:
> 
> Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic will present Mahler's 7th at Hill Auditorium this November!
> http://ums.org/performance/berlin-philharmonic/


Rattle and the Berlin are touring with that piece, and luckily they are coming to LA as well! I will definitely be seeing that. + Dudamel is doing the 9th, my favorite piece, this fall as well.


----------



## Merl

Mahlerian said:


> Karajan didn't record the Eighth. Are you referring to his Ninth?
> 
> I have to confess, I dislike Karajan's Mahler in general (while enjoying his Bruckner and even his take on Schoenberg's Pelleas). The way he distorts the orchestral balances irks me, and he seems to ignore the phrasing of the music to even it out.


Apologies, I meant the 9th. I was playing Dvorak's 8th at the time (this Fischer Budapest disc is a cracker).


----------



## chesapeake bay

After extensive listening of Mahler's 8th I'm back to Horenstein, it just sounds so right.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

chesapeake bay said:


> After extensive listening of Mahler's 8th I'm back to Horenstein, it just sounds so right.


One of my favourites, despite what David Hurwitz* might say about it. Pristine Classics did a pretty good remastering of the recording a couple of years back, but it still sounds good in its incarnation on BBC Legends.

* I normally find myself in uncanny agreement with Mr Hurwitz' reviews, but not in this instance.


----------



## chesapeake bay

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> One of my favourites, despite what David Hurwitz* might say about it. Pristine Classics did a pretty good remastering of the recording a couple of years back, but it still sounds good in its incarnation on BBC Legends.
> 
> * I normally find myself in uncanny agreement with Mr Hurwitz' reviews, but not in this instance.


Oh sure I was just fine with the BBC legends remake and you have to go and point out that theres a BETTER one availible, 24 bit flac no less....grrrrr...


----------



## Vaneyes

For those interested, courtesy of Misha Horenstein, the Pristine Audio "remake" is available at YT. Make some allowances for YT, but the performance still sounds pretty good for the one microphone used in 1959.

Prior to 1959, there were only six Mahler 8 recs, and none were the quality of this one. It's understandable that it soon reached legendary, and eventual cult status.

Though I think it's been bettered in performance and sound, it rightly deserves the garnered respect. :tiphat:


----------



## chesapeake bay

Vaneyes said:


> Though I think it's been bettered in performance and sound, it rightly deserves the garnered respect. :tiphat:


Which performances do you think better it? I'm still on my survey of Mahler 8's so more input is always appreciated.


----------



## Vaneyes

chesapeake bay said:


> Which performances do you think better it? I'm still on my survey of Mahler 8's so more input is always appreciated.


Performance & sound--LSO/Bernstein (Sony, 24-bit remastering); Kubelik (Audite live, DG); CSO/Solti (Decca); Bertini (EMI); Tennstedt (EMI); Abbado (DG); Boulez (DG). :tiphat:


----------



## chesapeake bay

Vaneyes said:


> Performance & sound--LSO/Bernstein (Sony, 24-bit remastering); Kubelik (Audite live, DG); CSO/Solti (Decca); Bertini (EMI); Tennstedt (EMI); Abbado (DG); Boulez (DG). :tiphat:


A bevy of mahler 8's! Though it's hard to complain with such a beautiful composition


----------



## SixFootScowl

Vaneyes said:


> Performance & sound--LSO/Bernstein (Sony, 24-bit remastering); Kubelik (Audite live, DG); CSO/Solti (Decca); Bertini (EMI); Tennstedt (EMI); Abbado (DG); Boulez (DG). :tiphat:


My first cycle is the Bernstein 1960s cycle reissue box set with original jackets. So I have the great LSO/Bernsteing recording. I only have one other Mahler recording that I found years ago at a garage sale and it is also a good one, Symphony 5 conducted by Shipway (at least highly rated on Amazon). My recently ordered Mahler 8 conducted by Olson (1995 Colorado Mahlerfest) is on its way and supposed to be delivered this Thursday.

Meanwhile, I got into this whole Mahler thing because of seeing Mahler 1 live last fall (Muti) and was only looking to buy a Muti Mahler #1 when the Bernstein set popped up on bid at a price I could not refuse. So I am still leaning towards getting a Muti Mahler #1. It won't be CSO which I saw but Philadelphia. It may not even be the best Mahler #1 but still I am leaning towards getting a copy.


----------



## Vaneyes

Florestan said:


> My first cycle is the Bernstein 1960s cycle reissue box set with original jackets. So I have the great LSO/Bernstein recording. I only have one other Mahler recording that I found years ago at a garage sale and it is also a good one, Symphony 5 conducted by Shipway (at least highly rated on Amazon). My recently ordered Mahler 8 conducted by Olson (1995 Colorado Mahlerfest) is on its way and supposed to be delivered this Thursday.
> 
> Meanwhile, I got into this whole Mahler thing because of seeing Mahler 1 live last fall (Muti) and was only looking to buy a Muti Mahler #1 when the Bernstein set popped up on bid at a price I could not refuse. So I am still leaning towards getting a Muti Mahler #1. It won't be CSO which I saw but Philadelphia. It may not even be the best Mahler #1 but still I am leaning towards getting a copy.


Good on you, seeing CSO/Muti. His M1 w. Philadelphia (rec.1984) is a front-runner. As is the Shipway M5 (available in 32-bit remastering). :tiphat:


----------



## Merl

With you on the Muti Mahler 1. Superb version. Not quite up there with Walter and Fischer for me but excellent and you can grab it cheap.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Merl said:


> With you on the Muti Mahler 1. Superb version. Not quite up there with Walter and Fischer for me but excellent and you can grab it cheap.


Yes, under $5 shipped.


----------



## Pugg

Florestan said:


> Yes, under $5 shipped.


Did you know that the recording was mad in 1984.
I wasn't even born then .


----------



## SixFootScowl

Pugg said:


> Did you know that the recording was mad in 1984.
> I wasn't even born then .


Yes, and in 1984 I was in college.


----------



## Merl

Florestan said:


> Yes, and in 1984 I was in college.


1984 was a bit of a haze for me. Lots of gigs and parties. I didnt calm down till 86. :devil:


----------



## SixFootScowl

Merl said:


> 1984 was a bit of a haze for me. Lots of gigs and parties. I didnt calm down till 86. :devil:


I started college in 1976! :lol:

But seriously, I wasn't in a haze the whole time. I did an Associates degree at community college, then worked five years, and then went to the university for a real degree. Was there from '82 through '89 with one year off and came out with two degrees.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Just started listening to Symphony #4 tonight. So far, beginning July 13 I have been checking out my new Mahler set (Bernstein 1960s). I Have heard #1, #2, #3, (#4 I will finish tonight), #5, #7, #8, the Adagio of #10, and Das Lied von der Erde. That leaves only 6 and 9 plus the performing edition of #10 (Rattle). So far I like everything I have heard. At this point I think my favorites may be 1,2, 5, 7 and 8 (also got the 1995 live Colorado Mahlerfest recording of #8). I feel pretty good about not rushing into these symphonies but taking them in slowly over several weeks. I'll have to do a lot more listening to fully appreciate Mahler, but it is a heady trip even now.


----------



## Pugg

Florestan said:


> Just started listening to Symphony #4 tonight. So far, beginning July 13 I have been checking out my new Mahler set (Bernstein 1960s). I Have heard #1, #2, #3, (#4 I will finish tonight), #5, #7, #8, the Adagio of #10, and Das Lied von der Erde. That leaves only 6 and 9 plus the performing edition of #10 (Rattle). So far I like everything I have heard. At this point I think my favorites may be 1,2, 5, 7 and 8 (also got the 1995 live Colorado Mahlerfest recording of #8). I feel pretty good about not rushing into these symphonies but taking them in slowly over several weeks. I'll have to do a lot more listening to fully appreciate Mahler, but it is a heady trip even now.


Good to hear mate . :tiphat:


----------



## Merl

Florestan said:


> My first cycle is the Bernstein 1960s cycle reissue box set with original jackets. So I have the great LSO/Bernsteing recording.


I'm not a fan of much Bernstein but I do like some of his Mahler. I only have his 1st, 6th and 9th but they are all very good accounts. The 9th I have is the fiery, live BPO account and is very impressive.


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

Mahler Symphony # 6 by Rafael Kubelík is great.


----------



## Pugg

Merl said:


> I'm not a fan of much Bernstein but I do like some of his Mahler. I only have his 1st, 6th and 9th but they are all very good accounts. The 9th I have is the fiery, live BPO account and is very impressive.


Amen brother/ sister .


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

Merl said:


> I'm not a fan of much Bernstein but I do like some of his Mahler. I only have his 1st, 6th and 9th but they are all very good accounts. The 9th I have is the fiery, live BPO account and is very impressive.


I like his live version of the 9th.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Saw this at my local music store today. Anybody familiar with it?

CLIPS


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> Saw this at my local music store today. Anybody familiar with it?
> 
> CLIPS


No, an unique cd cover.


----------



## Woodduck

Johnnie Burgess said:


> No, an unique cd cover.


It's from a painting by Gustav Klimt, a contemporary of Mahler and a leading artist in Vienna.


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

Woodduck said:


> It's from a painting by Gustav Klimt, a contemporary of Mahler and a leading artist in Vienna.


It is very nice. Did he do more works like this?


----------



## Woodduck

Johnnie Burgess said:


> It is very nice. Did he do more works like this?


He was very prolific. He painted figures and landscapes in a rather Art Nouveau decorative style.

Mahler and Klimt both knew Alma Schindler quite well. Of course they weren't the only ones.


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

Woodduck said:


> He was very prolific. He painted figures and landscapes in a rather Art Nouveau decorative style.
> 
> Mahler and Klimt both knew Alma Schindler quite well. Of course they weren't the only ones.


I had never heard of him before, but want to see more.


----------



## Guest

Woodduck said:


> He was very prolific. He painted figures and landscapes in a rather Art Nouveau decorative style.
> 
> Mahler and Klimt both knew Alma Schindler quite well. Of course they weren't the only ones.


How delicately phrased.





This might be interesting. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2404425/


----------



## Euterpe

Merl said:


> I'm not a fan of much Bernstein but I do like some of his Mahler. I only have his 1st, 6th and 9th but they are all very good accounts. The 9th I have is the fiery, live BPO account and is very impressive.


His 1st with NYPO is charming ：）


----------



## ejwin

Three Words: Hernia for Horn!


----------



## Vaneyes

Re *Mahler* 6 hammer.

http://www.npr.org/sections/decepti...ding-out-the-excess-in-mahlers-sixth-symphony


----------



## Judith

Saw Mahler's 6th symphony performed live by one of our local orchestras, Sinfonia of Leeds. Was amazing!!


----------



## Becca

Judith said:


> Saw Mahler's 6th symphony performed live by one of our local orchestras, Sinfonia of Leeds. Was amazing!!


An adventurous group!


----------



## hpowders

Except for the 4th symphony which I feel he botches, I enthusiastically endorse the rest of the entire Pierre Boulez Mahler set.


----------



## Heliogabo

Florestan said:


> Saw this at my local music store today. Anybody familiar with it?
> 
> CLIPS


This was the first 4th I 've listened to. A nice rendition, and contains the Bloomine as well.


----------



## jailhouse

hpowders said:


> Except for the 4th symphony which I feel he botches, I enthusiastically endorse the rest of the entire Pierre Boulez Mahler set.


Boulez is a genius, period. So many negative reviews on his cycle saying its dry and emotionless.

All i hear is pure Mahler. His 8th is the best.


----------



## hpowders

jailhouse said:


> Boulez is a genius, period. So many negative reviews on his cycle saying its dry and emotionless.
> 
> All i hear is pure Mahler. His 8th is the best.


I agree. The Boulez Mahler 8 is the most moving performance of this music I have ever heard.

Anyone who thinks Boulez was an emotionless clinician needs to hear this performance. Magnificent!


----------



## Vaneyes

I like Pierre's M6, as well. :tiphat:


----------



## Triplets

I don't own any PB Mahler recordings. I heard him perform 2, 4, and 7 here in Chicago. I would agree that his conception of 4 seemed at odds with just about every other performance I've encountered. I remember responding overwhelmingly to 7, and his Resurrection was very good if just somehow lacking that extra ounce of juice that makes a truly great Mahler experience.
I wouldn't say that PB lacked emotion, but his way with drama and emotion tends to reflect a character that 'feels with his brain'.
The emphasis is on clarity and structure but it isn't as if he was incapable of turning up the heat. He would definitely deemphasize the Jewish or the Klezmer allusions. This was deadly in 4:II, but benefited the Seventh. 
Mahler's music is a challenge and it's hard to find a Conductor that hits all the right buttons in all the works. PB had a definite and a valid view of this multifaceted Music. It wasn't my preferred view but it's been years since I have listened to him in this repertoire; time for a reevaluation


----------



## Daniel Atkinson

Mahler is good but I can only listen to so much


----------



## hpowders

Daniel Atkinson said:


> Mahler is good but I can only listen to so much


I know what you mean. He bloviates quite a bit.

Why say something in 28 minutes like Haydn, when you can do it in 85? :lol:


----------



## Pugg

Daniel Atkinson said:


> Mahler is good but I can only listen to so much


You don't have to listen all symphonies at once.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Pugg said:


> You don't have to listen all symphonies at once.


Funny thing too, because with Mahler I will listen to this symphony or that symphony, but with Beethoven I like to listen to the whole cycle straight through in order.


----------



## hpowders

Florestan said:


> Funny thing too, because with Mahler I will listen to this symphony or that symphony, but with Beethoven I like to listen to the whole cycle straight through in order.


I disagree with the advice you received.

You MUST listen to all the symphonies at once, consecutively, to experience the effect Mahler wished to bestow.

If you can't do that, there's always Vivaldi.


----------



## Triplets

Friend of mine who was a Violinist during our teens said that the reason Haydn wrote so many Symphonies is because after doing about 3 dozen or so he started regurgitating them backwards. Same guy also wondered how Mahler and Bruckner ever expected people to sit for over an hour.
I love Haydn but Mahler puts more into one of his pieces than F.J. manages in his entire corpus. And GM doesn't sound formulaic


----------



## SixFootScowl

hpowders said:


> I disagree with the advice you received.
> 
> You MUST listen to all the symphonies at once, consecutively, to experience the effect Mahler wished to bestow.
> 
> If you can't do that, there's always Vivaldi.


With Vivaldi I can run my mp3 player on shuffle!


----------



## SixFootScowl

Triplets said:


> Friend of mine who was a Violinist during our teens said that the reason Haydn wrote so many Symphonies is because after doing about 3 dozen or so *he started regurgitating them backwards*. Same guy also wondered how Mahler and Bruckner ever expected people to sit for over an hour.
> I love Haydn but Mahler puts more into one of his pieces than F.J. manages in his entire corpus. And GM doesn't sound formulaic


Yeah, but Mahler has a symphony that is turned inside out. It's like he split it in the middle, switched the pieces and refastened it so that the middle is at the beginning and end. Trying to remember, was that symphony #6?


----------



## Daniel Atkinson

Pugg said:


> You don't have to listen all symphonies at once.


Even one symphony can be a bit bloated and uninteresting


----------



## jdec

Daniel Atkinson said:


> Even one symphony can be a bit bloated and uninteresting


Not to me, I love all Mahler symphonies


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Daniel Atkinson said:


> Even one symphony can be a bit bloated and uninteresting


I can understand that point of view but, personally, I find _very_ little bloat in Mahler. It's easy to be overwhelmed by the sheer size of a Mahler orchestra, but he deploys his forces with astonishing economy. True to his name, perhaps, Mahler uses the orchestra like an artist's palette: sure, there's loads of paint, but he usually only chooses to mix a few colours at a time. Webern did pretty much the same, albeit over (drastically!) reduced time-scales. That's why I find Mahler's symphonies, and Webern's orchestral works for that matter, endlessly varied and fascinating.


----------



## Vox Gabrieli

The existence of Mahler led to some of the finest composers ever born like Dmitri Dmitryevich Shostakovich! I am a strong proponent to his symphonies.


----------



## hpowders

Especially Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony. Couldn't have been written without Mahler coming before him.


----------



## chalkpie

Vaneyes said:


> I like Pierre's M6, as well. :tiphat:


First M6 I ever bought and heard!


----------



## Triplets

Florestan said:


> Yeah, but Mahler has a symphony that is turned inside out. It's like he split it in the middle, switched the pieces and refastened it so that the middle is at the beginning and end. Trying to remember, was that symphony #6?


Um, are you referring to the controversy over the order of the inner movements of the Sixth?


----------



## Triplets

hpowders said:


> Especially Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony. Couldn't have been written without Mahler coming before him.


Shosty 4 is more experimental, showing the Composer first attempt at a large Symphonic fresco, also owning a debt to Bruckner, Sibelius, Gliere, as well as Mahler. The 5th, 8th, and 10 are more explicitly Mahlerian


----------



## ahinton

Daniel Atkinson said:


> Even one symphony can be a bit bloated and uninteresting


Only if performed inadequately.


----------



## ahinton

Triplets said:


> Same guy also wondered how Mahler and Bruckner ever expected people to sit for over an hour.


Does said friend have a problem with Beethoven 9 or indeed any other orchestral work of around an hour or more's duration? What matters is never the duration _per se_ but what the composer does within it, whether said duration is an hour and a half or a minute and a half.


----------



## hpowders

Triplets said:


> Shosty 4 is more experimental, showing the Composer first attempt at a large Symphonic fresco, also owning a debt to Bruckner, Sibelius, Gliere, as well as Mahler. The 5th, 8th, and 10 are more explicitly Mahlerian


The many gear shifts in Shostakovich 4 remind me of Mahler. Anyhow, it's my favorite Shostakovich Symphony.


----------



## hpowders

chalkpie said:


> First M6 I ever bought and heard!


Yes. Boulez in Mahler 5, 6 and 8. No complaints from me. Even Mahler 1 is nothing less than good.


----------



## Pugg

ahinton said:


> Only if performed inadequately.


That's the whole point, bit then again no problem in our own house, we can choose to listen to our very favourite.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Originally Posted by Florestan View Post
Yeah, but Mahler has a symphony that is turned inside out. It's like he split it in the middle, switched the pieces and refastened it so that the middle is at the beginning and end. Trying to remember, was that symphony #6?



Triplets said:


> Um, are you referring to the controversy over the order of the inner movements of the Sixth?


Guess I haven't listened to it enough. My initial impression was as if the end and beginning of this symphony were one piece that was torn apart, but I am revisiting the symphony now and am not getting that impression at all.


----------



## jdec

Florestan said:


> Guess I haven't listened to it enough. My initial impression was as if the end and beginning of this symphony were one piece that was torn apart, but I am revisiting the symphony now and am not getting that impression at all.


Both movements are great but the 4th is the _tource de force_ of this symphony for me.


----------



## GodotsArrived

hpowders said:


> Especially Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony. Couldn't have been written without Mahler coming before him.


Isn't that a bit of a non-sequitur of sorts? I mean without Bach there wouldn't have been a Haydn without whom there wouldn't have been a Beethoven without whom there wouldn't have been a Wagner (or Brahms) without whom there wouldn't have been a Bruckner without whom there wouldn't have been a Mahler without whom there wouldn't have been a Shostakovich (or Shoenberg) without whom there wouldn't have been a Boulez ad nauseam. In short, without Bach the world as we know it would cease to exist. Enough said


----------



## hpowders

^^^^Without me, there wouldn't be pithiness in posting.


----------



## hpowders

chalkpie said:


> First M6 I ever bought and heard!


You picked a good one. Intensity without schmaltz.


----------



## SixFootScowl

hpowders said:


> ^^^^Without me, there wouldn't be pithiness in posting.


I must say, I can't recall any of your posts being of great length. That is why I usually read your posts, but frequently skip other TC member's essay length posts.


----------



## hpowders

Florestan said:


> I must say, I can't recall any of your posts being of great length. That is why I usually read your posts, but frequently skip other TC member's essay length posts.


Why thank you. I appreciate that. 

When I see a multi-paragraph post, I'll usually read the first 2 lines and the last line. That's usually all I need to separate the wheat from the chaff. If there wasn't censorship here, I have other more colorful words for wheat and chaff.


----------



## chalkpie

hpowders said:


> You picked a good one. Intensity without schmaltz.


Took me YEARS to come around to Old Man Gus. M5 did it one summer night, and what a summer that was! I literally spent the entire summer and a good chunk of the autumn buying every symphony, and in some cases buying multiple versions of M5 for example. I spent weeks reading basically every flippin' Amazon Mahler review out there. Fast forward a few years, and the last I counted I was up to at least 17 versions of M2, and almost as many versions of M3, M7, and M9, and too many Das Lieds for the hours in a week.

One of the greatest composers, period in my universe. I actually have had Mahler "burn out" at times when I have just overdone it and binged too hard and too long on his stuff. But when I fancy the mood to hear some Mahler, there is nothing better.


----------



## SixFootScowl

chalkpie said:


> Took me YEARS to come around to Old Man Gus. M5 did it one summer night, and what a summer that was! I literally spent the entire summer and a good chunk of the autumn buying every symphony, and in some cases buying multiple versions of M5 for example.


Have you heard Shipway's Mahler 5th and, if so, how do you like it?


----------



## GodotsArrived

chalkpie said:


> I actually have had Mahler "burn out" at times when I have just overdone it and binged too hard and too long on his stuff.


Ditto, though unlike you he was one of my starting points rather than someone I came around to after years. For me, Mahler was central to my musical world for a decade but with time, has become less so. Don't get me wrong, there remain moments when there's nothing I'd rather listen to than 7, 9, 10 in particular but I wouldn't say he's aged well or, perhaps more accurately, I've found other music the depths of which have proved both more impenetrable and more demanding. As a generalisation, age has taken me more towards chamber and less to symphonic music. I find 2 in particular is a work I once imagined it would be impossible to live without but I rarely return to it now. Where I once thought it encapsulated a world, time spent with the late Beethoven Quartets had left me finding it somewhat shrill. I'm just reporting my experience by the way, not judging the music.


----------



## hpowders

chalkpie said:


> Took me YEARS to come around to Old Man Gus. M5 did it one summer night, and what a summer that was! I literally spent the entire summer and a good chunk of the autumn buying every symphony, and in some cases buying multiple versions of M5 for example. I spent weeks reading basically every flippin' Amazon Mahler review out there. Fast forward a few years, and the last I counted I was up to at least 17 versions of M2, and almost as many versions of M3, M7, and M9, and too many Das Lieds for the hours in a week.
> 
> One of the greatest composers, period in my universe. I actually have had Mahler "burn out" at times when I have just overdone it and binged too hard and too long on his stuff. But when I fancy the mood to hear some Mahler, there is nothing better.


I came to Mahler through Bernstein's first recording of Mahler 4 with the NY Philharmonic and Reri Grist. Magic!


----------



## Heliogabo

Henry-Louis de La Grange, considered THE Mahler´s specialist, as it seems, has died today at 92.
I didn't found an english obituary on him so I'll copy his wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry-Louis_de_La_Grange

RIP


----------



## millionrainbows

I find myself appreciating Mahler's "modernism" more.

That means: worrying less about coherence, contrasts, and seemingly long, wandering movements; less about traditional instrumentation and overall "symphony sound," after all, this is not Dvorak…Appreciating strange chords, like the minor with a major seventh that he uses in, I think, the third…stuff like that. Take it as it is.


----------



## Vaneyes

Heliogabo said:


> Henry-Louis de La Grange, considered THE Mahler´s specialist, as it seems, has died today at 92.
> I didn't found an english obituary on him so I'll copy his wikipedia page:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry-Louis_de_La_Grange
> 
> RIP


:angel:


----------



## Scott in PA

Sad to hear of La Grange's passing. I've read vols. 1-3 (vol. 3 only last summer). I'd like to get vol. 4 but it's too expensive! Keeping my eyes open for a decent used one in good condition.


----------



## millionrainbows

Rumor was spreadin' round
In that Texas town
'bout that Mahler expert called La Grange…
Y'all know what I'm talkin' 'bout...


----------



## chalkpie

Enjoying the Berliner Phil digital concert hall viewing right now of Mahler 3 with Ivan Fischer conducting. Simply put, they kick major ****. I have always loved the BP's wind players - they always have great flautists, that guy with the longish grey hair on English horn, and another cat on clarinet who seems to have been around for a gazillion years. 

As a string player/teacher myself, I am sometimes astounded by the poor positioning of some of the violinists and violists. A few don't have their Kun anywhere remotely NEAR their shoulder. But the racket they make is glorious, so I guess that is all that matters. I think Sir Simon did a beautiful job with this group, I think he is gonna be missed.


----------



## starthrower

chalkpie said:


> Enjoying the Berliner Phil digital concert hall viewing right now of Mahler 3 with Ivan Fischer conducting. Simply put, they kick major ****. I have always loved the BP's wind players - they always have great flautists, that guy with the longish grey hair on English horn, and another cat on clarinet who seems to have been around for a gazillion years.


I got the link from YouTube. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## Becca

chalkpie said:


> I have always loved the BP's wind players - they always have great flautists, that guy with the longish grey hair on English horn, and another cat on clarinet who seems to have been around for a gazillion years.
> .


English horn - Dominick Wollenweber
Clarinet (old guy) - Wenzel Fuchs


----------



## EdwardBast

chalkpie said:


> Enjoying the Berliner Phil digital concert hall viewing right now of Mahler 3 with Ivan Fischer conducting. Simply put, they kick major ****. I have always loved the BP's wind players - they always have great flautists, that guy with the longish grey hair on English horn, and another cat on clarinet who seems to have been around for a gazillion years.
> 
> As a string player/teacher myself, I am sometimes astounded by the poor positioning of some of the violinists and violists. A few don't have their Kun anywhere remotely NEAR their shoulder. But the racket they make is glorious, so I guess that is all that matters. I think Sir Simon did a beautiful job with this group, I think he is gonna be missed.


Fischer is a great interpreter of Mahler! He filled in at the last minute with the NY Philharmonic a few years back in a performance of Mahler 4, a piece I hadn't as yet warmed to. After that performance I was sold.


----------



## Janspe

I haven't listened to the 8th symphony in a while, and *oh my god* it's such a magnificent piece!

Just finished the final section of the piece, the unbelievable _Alles Vergängliche_, how can such great music exist, I can't fathom it.


----------



## Vaneyes

Janspe said:


> I haven't listened to the 8th symphony in a while, and *oh my god* it's such a magnificent piece!
> 
> Just finished the final section of the piece, the unbelievable _Alles Vergängliche_, how can such great music exist, I can't fathom it.


And GM wrote eight symphonies plus DLVDE, that are even better.


----------



## ahinton

Vaneyes said:


> And GM wrote eight symphonies plus DLVDE, that are even better.


Only eight? Which eight are these? The Eighth Symphony is a tremendous piece but I'm rather less convinced of it _as a symphony per se_ than any of Mahler's others; its première was, however, the greatest success that Mahler himself ever enjoyed with his own music.


----------



## Vaneyes

ahinton said:


> *Only eight? Which eight are these? *The Eighth Symphony is a tremendous piece but I'm rather less convinced of it _as a symphony per se_ than any of Mahler's others; its première was, however, the greatest success that Mahler himself ever enjoyed with his own music.


1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9.


----------



## ahinton

Vaneyes said:


> 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9.


So what's wrong with 10?


----------



## Vaneyes

ahinton said:


> So what's wrong with 10?


Wrong? What's different is one movement has full Mahler orchestration. The rest are sketches, which others have guessed to completion. Some are listenable, but all pale in comparison to the Mahler completions plus DLVDE.


----------



## Becca

They aren't sketches, they are _complete _short scores.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Becca said:


> They aren't sketches, they are _complete _short scores.


That is my understanding and I wish Mahlerian were here to explain it. But Mahler 10 is mostly Mahler, so much so that one can confidently enjoy it as a Mahler work. This is in grave contrast to the so-called Beethoven 10th which is hardly Beethoven, perhaps a smidgeon at best.


----------



## padraic

Florestan said:


> This is in grave contrast to the so-called Beethoven 10th which is hardly Beethoven, perhaps a smidgeon at best.


Well, Brahms didn't want to be too overt.


----------



## Vaneyes

Becca said:


> They aren't sketches, they are _complete _short scores.


"He sketched a five movement work in a short score format, completing a full orchestration of the first movement, with sketches for the other movements." - Iain Farrington


----------



## Vaneyes

Florestan said:


> That is my understanding and I wish Mahlerian were here to explain it. *But Mahler 10 is mostly Mahler, so much so that one can confidently enjoy it as a Mahler work. * This is in grave contrast to the so-called Beethoven 10th which is hardly Beethoven, perhaps a smidgeon at best.


No Tchaikovsky 7 mention?

Deryck Cooke certainly wasn't as confident as you are, emphasizing that his (Cooke Edition) was a Performing Edition, and that Mahler would have revised and revised had he lived.
Anyway, there's lots of good writing on the matter, presenting both sides and the in-between of the story.:tiphat:

Related:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1998/12/mahlers-unfinished-symphony/377362/


----------



## Becca

Vaneyes said:


> "He sketched a five movement work in a short score format, completing a full orchestration of the first movement, with sketches for the other movements." - Iain Farrington


That's what I said "short score" in four staves. The sketches refer to the orchestration where he made many notations about the intent and some partial completions in the second and most of the third movements. But the fundamental thematic basis of the work is complete.


Andante-Adagio: 275 bars drafted in orchestral and short score
Scherzo: 522 bars drafted in orchestral and short score
Purgatorio. Allegro moderato: 170 bars drafted in short score, the first 30 of which were also drafted in orchestral score
[Scherzo. Nicht zu schnell]: about 579 bars drafted in short score
Finale. Langsam, schwer: 400 bars drafted in short score

I really have a hard time understanding why so many people continue to believe that Mahler's intent was not clear.

I would add that if there is any one important point to take from the 10th, it is that the 9th was NOT a farewell symphony.


----------



## Becca

Vaneyes said:


> No Tchaikovsky 7 mention?


Tchaikovsky discarded the work and reused some of the material in other works so it is not comparable.


----------



## Becca

Vaneyes said:


> \Deryck Cooke certainly wasn't as confident as you are, emphasizing that his (Cooke Edition) was a Performing Edition, and that Mahler would have revised and revised had he lived.


'confident' completely misses his point. He knew that the basic material was there and was just emphasizing that he only intended to flesh out the short score to make it performable and that he had not composed or recomposed any parts. That makes it somewhat different from the (e.g.) Carpenter completion and (to a lesser extent) the Mazzetti.


----------



## Becca

I have read a lot of very complimentary things about Klaus Tennstedt's live performances of the Mahler symphonies but my only experience was of the recordings of the 3rd and 4th in vinyl. This week I set about changing that, starting with the LPO performances of the 2nd and 3rd. I do like the 3rd, so much so that it has moved to the top of my list.

The 2nd is a different matter in that I found it way too slow particularly in the last movement. I kept thinking that he would pick up the tempo but no such luck. A quick bit of checking revealed that his last movement is approximately 40mins long compared to around 36 for Rattle and 33 for that speed-demon, Otto Klemperer! This helped confirm something that I posted about a year or so ago where I did a more detailed comparison of the timings of various recordings of M2. 

Now I am aware that speed isn't everything, sometimes it can be detrimental, but what was most interesting about that comparison was that two of the fastest M2 recordings were by Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer, i.e. the two conductors who had experience working with Gustav Mahler. Klemperer conducted the offstage band in one performance of the 2nd which was conducted by Mahler.

Another conductor whose recording was on the faster end was John Barbirolli in his recording done in Stuttgart which is worth noting because he was the music director of the New York Philharmonic in the mid 1930's and so would have known some of the musicians who were there in Mahler's time.

P.S. If anyone wants to hunt up my post on timings, please do as I haven't gone looking.


----------



## Vaneyes

Mahlerian Madness by Leonard Slatkin.

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_features.php?id=14443


----------



## Totenfeier

Happy 157th birthday, Herr Mahler! Your time has indeed come; you are in the inner pantheon of the greatest composers of all time!

By the way, did you know that:
-July 7th is also my sister's and my mother-in-law's birthday;
-You were born on July 7th, 1860 - I was born on June 29th, 1960 - just as your Renaissance was beginning to really explode.

Coincidence?

Happy birthday, my dear, dear friend.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Listening to Mahler's 9th as his birthday - and my own! - draws to a close. It drowns out even the police helicopters overhead. Just about the most beautiful farewell music in the world.


----------



## Vaneyes

"Mahler said his time would come; the question now, for me, is when it will go."

This unkind *Mahler* article was bound to happen. A poor recording is far more likely to appear these days, 'cause everybody's doing it, doing it. IOW overdoing it. Too much of a good thing makes Michael Tanner a bad boy.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07...e-the-question-now-for-me-is-when-it-will-go/


----------



## Becca

SiegendesLicht said:


> Listening to Mahler's 9th as his birthday - and my own! - draws to a close. It drowns out even the police helicopters overhead. Just about the most beautiful *farewell music* in the world.


Except that it wasn't a farewell.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

Vaneyes said:


> "Mahler said his time would come; the question now, for me, is when it will go."
> 
> This unkind *Mahler* article was bound to happen. A poor recording is far more likely to appear these days, 'cause everybody's doing it, doing it. IOW overdoing it. Too much of a good thing makes Michael Tanner a bad boy.
> 
> https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07...e-the-question-now-for-me-is-when-it-will-go/


But really, is it a crime if I don't really care for Mahler?


----------



## Pugg

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> But really, is it a crime if I don't really care for Mahler?


Why should it, it's your choice and perhaps in time, one never knows.


----------



## DavidA

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> But really, is it a crime if I don't really care for Mahler?


If it was I'd be in jail too! :lol:


----------



## ST4

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> But really, is it a crime if I don't really care for Mahler?


I could ask the same of [canon accepted alleged genius] too.

Mahler though? One of my friends


----------



## Vaneyes

Mahler's farewell - "Don't let the screen door hit you, Alma!"

VPO/LB's partial Mahler 10 (Adagio rec. October 1974).






Related:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._10_(Mahler)


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## jdec

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> But really, is it a crime if I don't really care for Mahler?


No, but you are missing out


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## flylooper

Late arrival here. I suggest that you get a fairly brief biography of Mahler and try to flesh out the picture. Then start listening to him earliest to latest. Actually, you might start with "Songs of a Wayfarer" (Lieder Eines Fahrenden Gesellen) with, maybe Thomas Hanson or Brigitte Fassbaender singing. Be sure to have a translation with you if you don't speak German. He will "own" you if you do the groundwork. Then move on to his symphonies starting with No. 1.

This is a true story: I never like Mahler's music either until I was an older man, close to 70. Then I discovered his music after watching the movie "Death in Venice" which featured the Adagietto from his 5th Symphony. I found out whose music it was and the rest is history. I am the world's most ardent fan of Mahler. I've seen the VPO play his music in Vienna. Ive laid flowers on his grave, and have doubles and triples of Mahler recordings by one or another conductor/orchestra.

One of the great benefits for me is that in gaining an understanding of Mahler, I have a greater appreciation for post-Mahler music, too. Everyone who followed Mahler owes him something. Here I am at his grave....about 8 years ago.


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## Barbebleu

flylooper said:


> Late arrival here. I suggest that you get a fairly brief biography of Mahler and try to flesh out the picture. Then start listening to him earliest to latest. Actually, you might start with "Songs of a Wayfarer" (Lieder Eines Fahrenden Gesellen) with, maybe Thomas Hanson or Brigitte Fassbaender singing. Be sure to have a translation with you if you don't speak German. He will "own" you if you do the groundwork. Then move on to his symphonies starting with No. 1.
> 
> This is a true story: I never like Mahler's music either until I was an older man, close to 70. Then I discovered his music after watching the movie "Death in Venice" which featured the Adagietto from his 5th Symphony. I found out whose music it was and the rest is history. I am the world's most ardent fan of Mahler. I've seen the VPO play his music in Vienna. Ive laid flowers on his grave, and have doubles and triples of Mahler recordings by one or another conductor/orchestra.
> 
> One of the great benefits for me is that in gaining an understanding of Mahler, I have a greater appreciation for post-Mahler music, too. Everyone who followed Mahler owes him something. Here I am at his grave....about 8 years ago.
> 
> View attachment 100170


The first thing I heard about forty years ago was Fischer-Dieskau singing Ich Bin der Welt abhanden gekommen and I was hooked for life. Can't imagine not loving the music of Gustav Mahler.


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## Star

Vaneyes said:


> "Mahler said his time would come; the question now, for me, is when it will go."
> 
> This unkind *Mahler* article was bound to happen. A poor recording is far more likely to appear these days, 'cause everybody's doing it, doing it. IOW overdoing it. Too much of a good thing makes Michael Tanner a bad boy.
> 
> https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07...e-the-question-now-for-me-is-when-it-will-go/


Anyone is entitled to his opinion as to whether he likes a composeror not.


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## Scopitone

Anyone have a decided preference for the Bernstein Mahlers from New York vs Vienna?

How about the 2004 Abbado from Berlin? (the Mahler 6th)


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## Biffo

I have a decided preference for Bernstein/Sony (NY) over Bernstein/DG - Nos 1 -4 are from New York and Amsterdam. I have the DG set of Nos 1-4 and while his greater experience shows through he has slowed down horribly since the New York recordings. 

I have the Abbado/Berlin Mahler 6 but don't have an opinion on it. I must have listened to it at least once but it hasn't stuck in my memory.


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## Scopitone

I am streaming the Boulez No 6 right now, and I saw those other options (among many). Thanks for the tips.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Becca said:


> I have 3 versions of the _Resurrection_ in my collection and I thought that it would be interesting to compare the timings of them.
> 
> Klemperer/Philharmonia (EMI).... 19.03 10.30 11.40 4.01 34.04 ... 79.18
> Barbirolli / Stuttgart Radio ........... 21.12 10.19 11.21 4.45 33.02 ... 80.39
> Rattle/City of Birmingham (EMI) . 23.52 10.16 11.18 5.07 35.09 ... 85.42
> 
> So ... Klemperer wasn't always the slow-poke!
> I also have a Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic taken from a live recording and while I haven't checked it, I know that the first movement is taken at about the same tempo as with the CBSO.
> 
> I once attended a Mehta/Los Angeles Philharmonic performance and my (maybe suspect) memory is that it was even faster than Klemperer. All I remember for sure is that Mehta seemed to want to do it faster & louder than anyone else!


Are there some other timings you want to add Becca?


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## Larkenfield

................


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## Josquin13

Scopitone said:


> Anyone have a decided preference for the Bernstein Mahlers from New York vs Vienna?


Yes, I do--that is, if you mean Bernstein's later DG Vienna/New York/Concertgebouw Mahler cycle vs. his earlier 1960s New York Mahler cycle issued by Columbia (now Sony). Bernstein was always a somewhat erratic conductor, either he was very good, or not good at all, there wasn't a lot in between; however, in his later Vienna years, those erraticisms became more pronounced, as he often adopted very slow tempi on his DG recordings (many in Vienna), & made some awful recordings (such as his Elgar Enigma Variations). Yes, his DG Mahler cycle is for the most part highly regarded, but it's not immune from Bernstein's later indulgences & extremes. For example, the final movement of his DG Mahler 2nd is decidedly drawn out--I think too much so (though the slowness of the Urlicht movement is very beautiful). Both of Bernstein's earlier Mahler 2s, from Ely Cathedral & New York are preferable, IMO. Bernstein's Mahler 3, 7, & 9 are also superior on the New York Sony set, & especially the 9th, in my view.

Besides, the earlier New York set has never sounded better with the new DSD remasters (initially made for the import hybrid SACDs), and the set is available at a bargain price, last I checked--so it's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned: the earlier Sony set is preferable by a mile. It's also one of the supreme bargains in the current catalogue at around $20-25, as it offers performances you'll return for the rest of your life:

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Compl...d=1515369848&sr=1-1&keywords=mahler+bernstein

But, if you're comparing the earlier or later New York Philharmonic to the Vienna Philharmonic on Bernstein's later DG Mahler cycle, then I'd have to say the Vienna Philharmonic is the better orchestra, hands down (even though I prefer the Staatskapelle Dresden myself).


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## Larkenfield

millionrainbows said:


> ... I remember in his books & poems that he [writer & poet Charles Bukowski] was always listening to the music. I remember him mentioning Dvorak and Beethoven, but that's all. Where was this referenced, in a writing of his, or an interview?


Charles Bukowski on his favorite classical music...

'Serious music has long formed a centeral part of Bukowski's life which is understandable since poetry and music are closely related. In "classical music and me" Buk calls such music "a part of the world/like no other part of the world." And he told Loss Glazier: "I've had my crutches . . . Mozart, Mahler, Bach, Wagner."

http://realbeer.com/buk/classicbuk/cb1.html


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## juliante

Highly recommended listening:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09h64g4

Particularly for anyone who is bemused by Mahler but interested...!


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## MusicSybarite

Today I spent part of my time listening to Das klagende Lied for the first time 

I can say it was very good. It didn't seem an early work, but one from someone mature with an expert handling of the orchestra. Really impressive. Mahler is a composer which I like his vocal inclusion in orchestral works like this one, adding much more dramatism and atmosphere.


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## flamencosketches

Surprised this thread has been dead almost a year.

I recently heard Mahler's 4th symphony as performed by Fritz Reiner/Chicago Symphony. It kind of changed my opinion of Mahler. It has a lightness and concision of form that stands in stark contrast to the only other Mahler symphony I've heard in full, the 8th. The 8th was OK, but seemed a little silly with all of those huge choruses. The 4th really impressed me. Not to mention Reiner's conducting and the orchestra's playing was incredible. 

Where to go from here? I'm not interested in the more overblown, "epic" side of Mahler. Is that all there is to this composer? Does he have any other works that stand alongside the 4th in direct impact and concision? Moreover, is it that certain conductors overemphasize this impact of his music? It seems Reiner does a great job of cutting right to the core of the music. It's too bad that this is the only Mahler symphony he recorded (to my knowledge...?) as I feel his approach could give me appreciation of other symphonies of his too. 

Anyone else like the 4th? I don't see it mentioned as often as the 2nd, 8th, and 9th.


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## joen_cph

The 4th is the most lyrical of them. Otherwise, it will be individual movements of the symphonies, such as the 4th movement of the 7th symphony, or the 4th movement of the 3rd Symphony, etc.

The 10th Symphony, if darker and slow, doesn't quite have the aggresiveness of some of the other symphonies, though, IMO.

Bertini's recordings often have a spacious, slender and singing quality to them, IMO, that can also make one think of the 4th symphony.


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## flamencosketches

OK, good call. I will look into his recordings.


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## wkasimer

joen_cph said:


> The 4th is the most lyrical of them. Otherwise, it will be individual movements of the symphonies, such as the 4th movement of the 7th symphony, or the 4th movement of the 3rd Symphony, etc.
> 
> The 10th Symphony, if darker and slow, doesn't quite have the aggresiveness of some of the other symphonies, though, IMO.


I agree. Mahler's songs also tend to be more concise than the symphonies.



> Bertini's recordings often have a spacious, slender and singing quality to them, IMO, that can also make one think of the 4th symphony.


Same with Kubelik.

BTW, I listened this weekend to BBC3's "Building a Library" podcast, which featured Mahler's 4th. While the reviewer clearly loved Mengelberg and Walter in this symphony, his chosen recording was Ivan Fischer's, with Kubelik's a very close runner-up. Curiously, he spent an hour discussing and comparing recordings, without ever mentioning Bernstein, Klemperer, or Haitink.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

flamencosketches said:


> Where to go from here? I'm not interested in the more overblown, "epic" side of Mahler. Is that all there is to this composer? Does he have any other works that stand alongside the 4th in direct impact and concision?


Not entire symphonies, but you might like to try some individual movements which are somewhat less "epic" in tone... if not always in length! I'd suggest the following:

1st and 3rd movements of Symphony No 1. The 1st movement can get a bit "epic" in parts, but it's rather sunny and atmospheric overall. The 3rd movement is a funeral march, but don't let that put you off - it's based on _Frère Jacques_ (or "Bruder Martin" in German) and contains snippets of military and klezmer music, so it's never dull.

2nd and 3rd movements of Symphonies 2 and 3 - some gorgeous orchestration here.

5th and 6th movements of Symphony No 3. The latter runs for over 25 minutes, but it's well worth the journey.

The 4th movement "Adagietto" of Symphony No 5. Arguably Mahler's most famous single piece of music.

The Andante of Symphony No 6. Sad, bitter-sweet and "epic" in parts, but achingly beautiful.

The 4th movement of Symphony No 9. Another long "epic", but sublime.

I'd also recommend the songs from _Des Knaben Wunderhorn_, which were in part the inspiration for the earlier symphonies, including the 4th.

(Edit: I was going to suggest the two Nachtmusik movements from the 7th Symphony but, whilst it's one of my favourite Mahler symphonies, it has a reputation as a "difficult" work, so I wouldn't want to risk putting you off!)


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## flamencosketches

Starting to look like the only course of action is to get a big box set with all of the symphonies and jump around thru it. :lol:

Kubelik Ive heard a bit of before. I liked what I heard, did have kind of a light touch. 

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I'm not totally averse to epic music in general, Mahler in particular can be over the top though.


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## millionrainbows

If you do decide to get the earlier Bernstein Mahler box, be sure to get the one that says "Carnegie Hall Presents" on the front. They sound great, and are mastered from the best sources.

From a customer review: "Well, this past week a price drop on a copy listed here compelled me to give it a shot - and boy, am I glad that I did! These recordings are like canvasses that have had a layer of old, yellowing varnish removed. The sound is fully dimensional, and there is more "air" in the recording. I wouldn't have thought it possible, but these recordings have been given new life, and will gain new fans, and truly become immortal."


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## Larkenfield

flamencosketches said:


> Starting to look like the only course of action is to get a big box set with all of the symphonies and jump around thru it. :lol:
> 
> Kubelik Ive heard a bit of before. I liked what I heard, did have kind of a light touch.
> 
> Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I'm not totally averse to epic music in general, Mahler in particular can be over the top though.


 In fairness to Mahler, I would start with his first symphony and go through them all. You will survive. Each one is different but rewarding. I'm not for dividing up these symphonies piecemeal. Take a movement at a time if need be, but he wrote these as entire symphonies for a reason. There are plenty of different performances online too and you'll probably notice that Mahler can be performed in dramatically different ways. His symphonies encompass the entire world, starting with his own. There are a number of other Mahler threads that you can find by using the advanced search. His symphonies can be quite addictive.


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## wkasimer

millionrainbows said:


> If you do decide to get the earlier Bernstein Mahler box, be sure to get the one that says "Carnegie Hall Presents" on the front. They sound great, and are mastered from the best sources.


Alternatively, you might want to buy the more recent "original artwork" issue, which uses the same excellent transfers:









Not only is this one still in print, but it's cheaper...


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## flamencosketches

Larkenfield said:


> In fairness to Mahler, I would start with his first symphony and go through them all. You will survive. Each one is different but rewarding. I'm not for dividing up these symphonies piecemeal. Take a movement at a time if need be, but he wrote these as entire symphonies for a reason. There are plenty of different performances online too and you'll probably notice that Mahler can be performed in dramatically different ways. His symphonies encompass the entire world, starting with his own. There are a number of other Mahler threads that you can find by using the advanced search. His symphonies can be quite addictive.


I would agree. I've always preferred listening to works (or in popular music, albums) in full. I was just trying to heed the advice of several who told me to look into individual movements. I will probably just try and find a disc with just the first symphony and work my way from there. I couldnt justify getting a box yet off of one symphony that I like, which apparently is uncharacteristic of the rest :lol:


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## Becca

The idea that a conductor has to produce a complete set of all the symphonies (or other works) of a given composer is one of the more unfortunate consequences of the recording and marketing industry as it has resulted in a lot of sets where the only real value is the name of the conductor. This is particularly true with the Mahler symphonies where I personally cannot think of a single conductor who got them all right so, in purchasing them, you are likely (if lucky) to get 2 or 3 hits, some close and a few also-rans. Those also-rans can have the side-effect of turning you off to a work which you might enjoy when done by someone who really 'gets it' (that has happened to me, albeit not from a box set.) Even the argument of price per disc is more a rationalization than anything.


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## flamencosketches

Well, noted. It just seems that so many of the commercially available releases of his music are in the form of complete cycles these days. I'm not really interested in a whole one at this point anyway. 

How's Kubelik's recording of the first symphony? That's the one i'm looking at pulling the trigger on. I like the few minutes of it that i listened to, but have no benchmark.


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## SixFootScowl

Becca said:


> The idea that a conductor has to produce a complete set of all the symphonies (or other works) of a given composer is one of the more unfortunate consequences of the recording and marketing industry as it has resulted in a lot of sets where the only real value is the name of the conductor. This is particularly true with the Mahler symphonies where I personally cannot think of a single conductor who got them all right so, in purchasing them, you are likely (if lucky) to get 2 or 3 hits, some close and a few also-rans. Those also-rans can have the side-effect of turning you off to a work which you might enjoy when done by someone who really 'gets it' (that has happened to me, albeit not from a box set.) Even the argument of price per disc is more a rationalization than anything.


However, a complete cycle by one conductor, generally being far more cost effective than buying individual recordings, is a good way to be introduced to the composer. I would be hard pressed to figure out what individual recordings to get. On the other hand, all of Mahler's symphonies can be listened to on You Tube and an actual purchase delayed until one has greater knowledge to work with in making selections. I am to impetuous though to go that route so I just buy a set and run with it, then maybe buy 1 or 17 more sets, who knows.


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## MrMeatScience

flamencosketches said:


> How's Kubelik's recording of the first symphony? That's the one i'm looking at pulling the trigger on. I like the few minutes of it that i listened to, but have no benchmark.


Kubelik's First is an excellent choice -- one of the finest on record, for my money (I've recently surveyed about 25 Firsts, and he came out in the upper echelon, possibly at the very top). It's the highlight of his very good cycle, IMO.


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## Becca

flamencosketches said:


> Well, noted. It just seems that so many of the commercially available releases of his music are in the form of complete cycles these days. I'm not really interested in a whole one at this point anyway.
> 
> How's Kubelik's recording of the first symphony? That's the one i'm looking at pulling the trigger on. I like the few minutes of it that i listened to, but have no benchmark.


I would put Kubelik (the Audite, live performance) and the Barbirolli/Halle at the top of the list with Horenstein/LSO very close (if you like a darker view.)


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## Becca

Fritz Kobus said:


> However, a complete cycle by one conductor, generally being far more cost effective than buying individual recordings, is a good way to be introduced to the composer. I would be hard pressed to figure out what individual recordings to get. On the other hand, all of Mahler's symphonies can be listened to on You Tube and an actual purchase delayed until one has greater knowledge to work with in making selections. I am to impetuous though to go that route so I just buy a set and run with it, then maybe buy 1 or 17 more sets, who knows.


- So you buy a set and it has one or two uninspiring performances, how is a good introduction or cost effective?
- You said that you would be 'hard pressed to figure out' but then you go on to mention YouTube as a way of getting 'a greater knowledge' - isn't one the solution to the other? There is also Spotify and Tidal and the voluminous, never ending Mahler threads on TC :lol:


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## haydnguy

I did my big Mahler search about 10 years ago. I was also trying to figure out other music. But at one time it was my Mahler search. I was just beginning so I give myself a little slack here. Also, Spotify wasn't what it was then (if it existed) and I have a hard time "listening" with Youtube so I had to decide. Even among long time listeners there are different tastes. My first 2 purchases are considered "duds". The rest are considered decent if not at the top. 

I just looked back over my Mahler purchases and I purchased all individual purchases except one set and that was just recently. I purchased a Chailly boxed set. I do read closely what people say about the choices. I particularly read the veterans of the forum and what they say. That's a big reason why I come to the forum. For advice on my music selections from people that have heard a lot of them.


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## NLAdriaan

If it is for a less 'epic' approach towards Mahler's music, I would suggest to listen to Boulez (yes, also available in a relative price effective DG box). As expected from Boulez own compositions, he gives a fresh approach to Mahler, which might help you to listen to Mahler's music without being dragged into emotional rollercoasters. 

I don't see a need to listen in chronological order. Each work has its own atmosphere and so everyone will develop his own favourites. And it takes a few times before you really start to know the music. 

Mahler keeps me company for 40 years now and I started in my teens. 

Bernard Haitink was my first guide, with his broadcasted concerts (taped by me). I then started to visit many concerts and listen to recordings and keep doing that till this day. 

There are many approaches to Mahler and it is quite personal which concert or recording connects you to a piece. 

I find it interesting to follow a conductor who develops his view on Mahler. For instance, Abbado was not at all interesting to me in his first recorded Mahler cycle and with his third (Lucerne, many of them on youtube!), he became one of my all time favourites. Haitink also really developed his views on Mahler, as he stripped the sentimental (epic?) approach in return for more clarity. He conducted Mahler 9 last year in a complete different and also very convincing way with the Concertgebouw orchestra from his concerts 20 years ago.

To me, the criteria are only personal. I know the music very well and if a conductor takes me on a journey, I am happy with it. Great if it works out and sad if you stay on the ground.


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## 50iL

I LOVE Bernstein's take on Symphony No. 2; it's just so terribly, deeply moving. I'm basically sobbing by its end, great stuff. I've been checking Mahler's symphonies chronolgically, as I only got into Mahler recently. On the 7th as of this message.


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## Larkenfield

Nice to see Boulez mentioned. His performances are outstanding, at least the ones I’ve heard: one, three, six, seven, and eight. He conducts Mahler like a 20th-century composer (which he was) as well as a 19th, and I find that quite refreshing. I still suggest that people start at one and move through them in order because it shows the development of his thinking, but no great sin is being committed if one takes them randomly. A wonderful composer and I believe Boulez did him great service by taking a more modern approach that is free of exaggerated emotional excesses but is not without feeling. When Mahler is played as a purely emotional sentimentalist it’s like one is viewing him as having no resilience as a person, and that wasn’t true at all… Despite his losses and sufferings (death of a child and divorce), he continued to rise from the ashes like a phoenix until his body gave out.


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## SixFootScowl

Becca said:


> - So you buy a set and it has one or two uninspiring performances, how is a good introduction or cost effective?
> - You said that you would be 'hard pressed to figure out' but then you go on to mention YouTube as a way of getting 'a greater knowledge' - isn't one the solution to the other? There is also Spotify and Tidal and the voluminous, never ending Mahler threads on TC :lol:


Well there are many ways to go about it. For me, going through a lot of performances on You Tube would be rather time consuming. It is easier for me to listen on an earbud or in the car, and I don't have streaming or special radio so just disks or mp3s. But at least a set to get an introduction, then I work from there.


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## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> BTW, I listened this weekend to BBC3's "Building a Library" podcast, which featured Mahler's 4th. While the reviewer clearly loved Mengelberg and Walter in this symphony, his chosen recording was Ivan Fischer's, with Kubelik's a very close runner-up. Curiously, he spent an hour discussing and comparing recordings, without ever mentioning Bernstein, Klemperer, or Haitink.


I am coming to the conclusion that listening to BBC Record Review is a waste of time apart from interest. The reviewer I don't think even mentioned Szell either, whose 4th is always highly rated. A reviewer got through Brahms 2 piano concerto without mentioning the great Richter / Leinsdorf recording, one of the greatest ever. One wonders who these people are.


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## NLAdriaan

Larkenfield said:


> Nice to see Boulez mentioned. His performances are outstanding, at least the ones I've heard: one, three, six, seven, and eight. He conducts Mahler like a 20th-century composer (which he was) as well as a 19th, and I find that quite refreshing. I still suggest that people start at one and move through them in order because it shows the development of his thinking, but no great sin is being committed if one takes them randomly. A wonderful composer and I believe Boulez did him great service by taking a more modern approach that is free of exaggerated emotional excesses but is not without feeling. When Mahler is played as a purely emotional sentimentalist it's like one is viewing him as having no resilience as a person, and that wasn't true at all… Despite his losses and sufferings (death of a child and divorce), he continued to rise from the ashes like a phoenix until his body gave out.


I agree. Mahler is the only composer whose personal life is completely projected onto his music, like a socialite avant la lettre. Thomas Mann projected his own sexual struggles onto a fictional writer's character and Visconti entirely took it back to Mahler, with a look-a-like actor and using Mahler's adagietto in the movie Death in Venice, connecting the music to a highly troubled sexual obsession. A complete fictional falsification, which however became Mahler's rise to public fame but partly ruined the adagietto, as you tend to associate it with the movie.

Mahler suffered from a child's loss (devastating to any parent) and a cheating wife (no divorce though), but he himself didn't identify his personal life with his music, at least Mahler intended to let the music speak for itself, according to his biographers.

It sure is tempting for many conductors to dive deep into all these sentimental and theatrical analogies. The audience will follow you and will give you big Bravo's. It takes a courageous approach to conduct Mahler without these sentimental detours and to serve the music as it is. As there is enough to enjoy, such as a huge complexity and a turning point from late romantic towards the second Viennese school.

So, in short, Boulez is a reliable and easy accessible guide. Another suggestion would be Francois Xavier Roth, who recorded a few Mahler symphonies recently, Abbado's Mahler's from Lucerne (I think you can find most of these on Youtube).


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## joen_cph

Pettersson has suffered from the too personally orientated interpretation of his oeuvre too, for example. He hated it, and his choice of texts is dealing with collective conditions and social issues.

But seeing the music as emotionally loaded does not limit it to the result of the sentiments of a single subject; emotions can be representative for a period, say angsty times for example, and a general, artistic approach.


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## NLAdriaan

joen_cph said:


> Pettersson has suffered from the too personally orientated interpretation of his oeuvre too, for example. He hated it, and his choice of texts is dealing with collective conditions and social issues.
> 
> But seeing the music as emotionally loaded does not limit it to the result of the sentiments of a single subject; emotions can be representative for a period, say angsty times for example, and a general, artistic approach.


Well, Mahler's time certainly was emotionally driven, as psychoanalysis started to evolve and previously suppressed or hidden emotions were now exposed and 'explained'. Music is of course a good language to communicate emotions. And perhaps Hugo Wolf and Gustav Mahler were true masters of the genre, as they have used such a wide range of expressions. But as you put it, understanding or scoring 'emotions', doesn't make them an X-ray of your own brain.

The public obsession with lives and supposed mindsets of famous people (especially artists) that we don't know, has only become more popular since. Also here on TC, all kinds of mental situations or even mental illnesses are projected onto composers or conductors, as if the writer treated them personally and as if it is any of our business.

I don't know Allan Petterson, not too much on Spotify. Do you have any suggested listenings?


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## joen_cph

For Pettersson, the 8th and the 7th Symphonies, I'd avoid Segerstam's versions. Recordings mean a lot as regards this composer, for example Commissionas' 9th is much slower and less frantic than the others, and the Violin Concerto with Ida Haendel much grander and more cantabile than the CPO.
For his works with a social programme, the cantata Vox Humana and the 12th Symphony.

Some of the music is very violent - Symphonies 9,10,11,13 in particular. Segerstam is quite good in 10-11. The 6th is a masterwork, but a long adagio. The Violin Concerto is a masterwork too, the initial conflicts evolve into a lyrical tune in the last half of the work. But too emotional music for some listeners.


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## NLAdriaan

joen_cph said:


> For Pettersson, the 8th and the 7th Symphonies, I'd avoid Segerstam's versions. Recordings mean a lot as regards this composer, for example Commissionas' 9th is much slower and less frantic than the others, and the Violin Concerto with Ida Haendel much grander and more cantabile than the CPO.
> For his works with a social programme, the cantata Vox Humana and the 12th Symphony.
> 
> Some of the music is very violent - Symphonies 9,10,11,13 in particular. Segerstam is quite good in 10-11. The 6th is a masterwork, but a long adagio. The Violin Concerto is a masterwork too, the initial conflicts evolve into a lyrical tune in the last half of the work. But too emotional music for some listeners.


Thank you very much! I am now listening to symf 8 on Spotify by Gerd Albrecht. Totally new to me :tiphat:.


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## wkasimer

DavidA said:


> I am coming to the conclusion that listening to BBC Record Review is a waste of time apart from interest. The reviewer I don't think even mentioned Szell either, whose 4th is always highly rated. A reviewer got through Brahms 2 piano concerto without mentioning the great Richter / Leinsdorf recording, one of the greatest ever.


I don't think that Backhaus was mentioned, either, and Gilels was dismissed rather quickly. I found it particularly odd that the reviewer of recordings of Schubert's Schwanengesang managed to talk for an hour without mentioning Hans Hotter or Bryn Terfel.


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## flamencosketches

Really enjoying that Kubelik No.1, so many thanks to whoever recommended I check him out (I believe it was you, wkasimer - cheers to that). Tempted to snag his complete cycle now, but I may continue seeking out other interpretations before pulling the trigger on any box (I haven't heard any of Bernstein's Mahler, and I know he was vital in the revival of the composer's music).


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## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> Really enjoying that Kubelik No.1, so many thanks to whoever recommended I check him out (I believe it was you, wkasimer - cheers to that). Tempted to snag his complete cycle now, but I may continue seeking out other interpretations before pulling the trigger on any box (I haven't heard any of Bernstein's Mahler, and I know he was vital in the revival of the composer's music).


Hey Flamencosketches, this is a damn fine Mahler cycle too.


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## flamencosketches

Right, someone else had recommended Bertini to me too. I'm not familiar with this conductor at all. I'll have to check out one of his Mahler symphonies. Maybe the 2nd. Now that I'm more or less sold on the composer as a whole I'm trying to work my way thru chronologically. I still favor the 4th and appreciate its "brevity", but the 1st did not fall far behind.

Looks about equal in price to Kubelik's. If and when I decide to go for a box it will likely have to be one of the two.


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## NLAdriaan

flamencosketches said:


> Right, someone else had recommended Bertini to me too. I'm not familiar with this conductor at all. I'll have to check out one of his Mahler symphonies. Maybe the 2nd. Now that I'm more or less sold on the composer as a whole I'm trying to work my way thru chronologically. I still favor the 4th and appreciate its "brevity", but the 1st did not fall far behind.
> 
> Looks about equal in price to Kubelik's. If and when I decide to go for a box it will likely have to be one of the two.


Apart from Boulez, who I already mentioned and whose cycle deserves a place in each Mahler collection, I personally also would prefer Chailly over Bertini.


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## flamencosketches

I like what I've heard of Chailly's Beethoven cycle, but have heard none of his Mahler. Does he present it in kind of a similar way, classicistic, emphasizing clarity and motivic development over sentimentality, strict, brisk tempos? If so that sounds up my alley. 

I do have high hopes for Boulez in Mahler too... ahhh, too many recordings. This is one reason I've always distanced myself from Mahler: I knew that once I got into his music it'd eat up my whole life :lol:


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## NLAdriaan

flamencosketches said:


> I like what I've heard of Chailly's Beethoven cycle, but have heard none of his Mahler. Does he present it in kind of a similar way, classicistic, emphasizing clarity and motivic development over sentimentality, strict, brisk tempos? If so that sounds up my alley.
> 
> I do have high hopes for Boulez in Mahler too... ahhh, too many recordings. This is one reason I've always distanced myself from Mahler: I knew that once I got into his music it'd eat up my whole life :lol:


Chailly is indeed quite like you describe his Beethoven. Combine this with the great Mahler tradition of the Concertgebouw orchestra and the acoustics of the concertgebouw, captured by Decca. You will not be disappointed!. As a 'first' Mahler cycle, Chailly might well be an ideal choice.


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## flamencosketches

Damn, when you put it that way... that sounds awesome. OK, now I'm torn between four sets :lol:


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

NLAdriaan said:


> As a 'first' Mahler cycle, Chailly might well be an ideal choice.


I'd go along with that.


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## flamencosketches

What's the consensus on Bernstein's Mahler cycle on Sony Classical?

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Complete-Symphonies-Gustav/dp/B005SJIP1E/

It's cheaper than the others I'm looking at (Kubelik, Chailly, Bertini) and of course Bernstein is legendary in Mahler. I'm going to listen to his 4th for reference.


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## flamencosketches

If this is the recording from that set, then count me intrigued. Liking it so far. Where Reiner's recording has levity and clarity, this has depth and richness (I can imagine, if the pacing is right, by the third movement that richness could translate to power).

I still have yet to sample the other cycles mentioned. There's only so many hours in a day, and Mahler is generally not the first thing I want to spend those hours on.


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## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> What's the consensus on Bernstein's Mahler cycle on Sony Classical?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Complete-Symphonies-Gustav/dp/B005SJIP1E/
> 
> It's cheaper than the others I'm looking at (Kubelik, Chailly, Bertini) and of course Bernstein is legendary in Mahler. I'm going to listen to his 4th for reference.


More reading for you, FS.

Bernstein's Mahler Cycles


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## flamencosketches

Sounds like consensus is on the set I'm referring to as the best of Bernstein's three cycles. Beyond that it seems opinion is mixed. 

Ahh, too many choices.


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## Larkenfield

flamencosketches said:


> What's the consensus on Bernstein's Mahler cycle on Sony Classical?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Complete-Symphonies-Gustav/dp/B005SJIP1E/
> 
> It's cheaper than the others I'm looking at (Kubelik, Chailly, Bertini) and of course Bernstein is legendary in Mahler. I'm going to listen to his 4th for reference.


It's historic. This is the cycle that put Mahler on the map for a new generation, starting at the time of the Mahler centennial celebration, and Bernstein's first cycle has the air of the freshness of discovery of these great symphonies. The only one that's a bit ragged is the 5th, in which I've never heard him push a Mahler Symphony so hard that some of the playing is pushed to the limits. I found this extremely revealing of Bernstein's approach to conducting in general. He makes things happen. It's Bernstein and the orchestra caught in the moment and still a special if not flawed recording... I believe these symphonies are very revealing of the composer's inner life and special in that rich regard. The first complete cycle of Mahler symphonies (1- 9) was not by Bernstein but by Maurice Abravanel and the Utah Symphony, another cycle very much worth having as a download that can be heard in the $.99 Mahler Box by Bach Guild. If one wants to appreciate the composer, I doubt if one cycle is enough. These symphonies can be played as varied as Beethoven's. Those who are not persuaded by these symphonies should try them in another five years or perhaps later in life. They can be richly rewarding and Mahler 10th Symphony (not included in either of these sets) is prophetic of the changes in music that was going to take place during the 20th century related to the streamlining of melody, harmony, and the intensification of dissonance.


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## flamencosketches

I am inclined to agree. Seems there are a million and one different ways to play Mahler, and one cycle would surely be insufficient. However, I am a broke recent college grad, and for the time being one shall have to suffice. It may be foolish seeking one that shows a "definitive" rendering of these symphonies, but that is what I was hoping to approximate. 

In any case, it may still be years down the line before I really "get" Mahler, like you said. But I do like the 1st and 4th symphonies. Kind of hate the 8th, but I respect it for what it is.


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## rice

flamencosketches said:


> What's the consensus on Bernstein's Mahler cycle on Sony Classical?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Complete-Symphonies-Gustav/dp/B005SJIP1E/
> 
> It's cheaper than the others I'm looking at (Kubelik, Chailly, Bertini) and of course Bernstein is legendary in Mahler. I'm going to listen to his 4th for reference.


It's cheaper than others and that makes it a super bargain.
Sony did put some effort on this set. Unlike DG!
I just received both the bernstein sony set and DG set.
In the sony set each CD comes in card sleeves with original LP cover. They even printed the CD like little LPs!
But the DG set, despite *not* being a budget reissue (in fact mine is the supposed premium "limited edition"),
there are only thin paper sleeves with some random black and white photos as artworks, plus generic style CDs.
Of course we're after the music and in terms of that both are worth having and listening to.
But what sony did deserves some appreciation.


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## rice

flamencosketches said:


> In any case, it may still be years down the line before I really "get" Mahler, like you said. But I do like the 1st and 4th symphonies. Kind of hate the 8th, but I respect it for what it is.


It does take some time to "digest" and learn to enjoy Mahler's music, as they are such gigantic masterpieces!
I have been enjoying the first 4 symphonies, but recently starting to enjoy the 5th and 6th too.


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## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> In any case, it may still be years down the line before I really "get" Mahler, like you said. But I do like the 1st and 4th symphonies. Kind of hate the 8th, but I respect it for what it is.


Although Abravanel is an ok set and its available for a dollar it's hardly got the 'wow' factor needed for Mahler so i'd look elsewhere or it might be even longer before you get Mahler properly. And you arent on your own on your dislike of the 8th. Some love it but equally there are many like me who cant bear it. I'm a big admirer of the 1st and 4th too. Keep looking online and see if you can pick up a set on the cheap. I got Tennstedt's Mahler cycle for a ridiculous price after ordering it fron the US. I think the whole cycle was under £4. I waited ages to get it but wben it did come it was still wrapped in cellophane and brand new.


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## Becca

The problem with Bernstein as I see it is his tendency to exaggerate, over-the-top in emotion. Admittedly his later DGG recordings are more that way that the earlier Sony, but it does play to the argument that Mahler didn't know when enough was enough. I see his recordings of the 2nd as a perfect example, at least in the tempi that he adopted, much slower and more exaggerated than from those who had direct or once-removed contact with Mahler. In summary, you can do better.

Having said that, my opinion about box sets are well known, especially as an introduction to the symphonies, i.e. no conductor gets them all right. Some great Mahlerians didn't even perform, let alone record, all the symphonies. Listen on YouTube, Spotify and/or Tidal, pick and choose.

Now my list of conductors worth looking into: Walter, Klemperer, Barbirolli, Barshai, Gielen, Kubelik (particularly the Audite live performances). Even Rattle for the 8th thru 10th (BPO for the 9th)!


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## rice

Becca said:


> I see his recordings of the 2nd as a perfect example, at least in the tempi that he adopted, much slower and more exaggerated than from those who had direct or once-removed contact with Mahler. In summary, you can do better.


I like the slower tempi a lot. For the 2nd I don't think it's wrong to be very emotional. Although I'd admit the first movement of the DG version sounds a tad slow to me. 
On the contrary Kubelik's version is too fast! Even with the choral finale! 
I think the line "Aufersteh'n, ja aufersteh'n, wirst du mein Herz in einem Nu" should be sung with maximum emotion to bring out the climax. But he just glimpsed through! His approach on that part did sounds quite interesting but I like it slower!


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## Becca

""Nothing great is achieved without passion, but underneath the passion there should always be that large impersonal survey which sets limits to actions that our passions inspire." - Bertrand Russell

Yes there are plenty of relatively unemotional Mahler recordings. There are also many which don't know when to stop. The interesting thing is that it isn't always tempi (or volume) which defines that. Too much or too little can be dishonest, the key is finding the balance while still conveying the essence of the work.


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## paulbest

Becca said:


> Yes there are plenty of relatively unemotional Mahler recordings.


You Mahlerites should note very well this keen, truthfull observation.
You see with Pettersson, a direct heir to Mahler, with his recordings, there are no un-emotional recordings. They all, with power, high emotional content, gigantic leaps and valleys, none are *dud*. 
You should really hear Pettersson and see what you are missing


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## flamencosketches

Anyone else in the midst of a Mahler phase lately...? I would currently rate him as a favorite, top-10 kind of composer, and will confess that I had him all wrong before. His music is not about bombast and grandiosity, but subtlety, sensitivity, and the intricacies of the human condition, and even spirituality. His music was far ahead of his time, and as Leonard Bernstein noted in his Norton lectures, much of Mahler's best music spoke to the "century of death" that was to come. He was an important composer and one of the greats alongside Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Wagner, Debussy, Schubert etc. 

Interestingly, it was my discovery of his Lieder and vocal music–as well as a bit of prodding by some more experienced listeners–that really pushed me over the fence in recognizing him as an important composer. I guess it was hard for me to accept that someone who only wrote in one genre could be ranked alongside Mozart, who wrote classic operas, concertos, chamber music etc or Beethoven who wrote classic symphonies, piano sonatas, and quartets. But in addition to holding a place in the pantheon of symphonists alongside Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, Bruckner, Sibelius etc, he also holds a place in that of Lieder, alongside Schubert and Schumann. 

On that note, can someone point me in the direction of a great CD that contains Mahler Lieder accompanied by piano rather than orchestra? I would love to see how his songs hold up sans his signature lush orchestration.

I am listening to (and enjoying) the famous Das Lied von der Erde for the first time. Der Abschied. This is my first foray into his late music. It's more accessible than I was expecting. I am going to hold off on listening to symphonies 9 and 10 for now and spend more time with this work, as well as symphonies 6 thru 8. I haven't heard 7 yet either. I think that's another one I'm going to come back to later on. 

My favorite interpreters so far are Leonard Bernstein (his NYPO cycle is just amazing, I love each symphony that I've heard so far), Rafael Kubelik, Fritz Reiner (his Mahler 4th is how I got started with all this obsession), and I'm beginning to really appreciate Bernard Haitink's Mahler, and want to hear more. I have recordings of Karajan conducting Mahler Lieder with Christa Ludwig and really love it, I want to hear more of his Mahler too, though I know of course that he is controversial as a Mahler conductor, to put it lightly. Yet another conductor I want to explore further with Mahler is Abbado. I think he is a genius and a visionary with 20th century music, he almost reminds me of Pierre Boulez, only less extreme and austere. (As for Boulez himself, I have been less impressed with what I've heard in his Mahler, but I will return later on as I know he is a personal favorite with many). 

Anyway, yeah. Gustav Mahler was a great composer. Happy to count him as a personal favorite.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Yet another conductor I want to explore further with Mahler is Abbado. I .


Abbado got cancer and everyone thought it was the end. But he went into remission and in that time developed the Lucerne orchestra. Musicians rallied round him and it had some top flight chamber players in its ranks, all there to show their respect and affection for the conductor. I'd say that Abaddo's Mahler with that orchestra is worth checking out.



flamencosketches said:


> My favorite interpreters so far are Leonard Bernstein. . .


I wonder if you'll like this









Not a recommendation by the way, i can't stand either the singer or the pianist!


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## millionrainbows

How do I sum up Mahler for myself?

I have the Bernstein set...I consider Mahler to be a sensual luxury for the most part. I like his work for its scope, emotional content, and overall intent, not necessarily for the musical ideas themselves, until we get to the later 9th and 10th, which I consider more harmonically daring, and portents of the 20th century future. 
If I'm going to listen to symphonic music which is generally harmonically "in the box" as is true for most music of the nineteenth century, Mahler is on my short list.


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## flamencosketches

@Mandryka, :lol: I love DFD and I love Bernstein, but I’m not really familiar with his piano playing. I’ll check it out.


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## Janspe

The 10th is an incredible work, and the performing versions (I always go for Cooke's) make it possible to enjoy the truly final symphony of Mahler. I'm so happy that it exists!

I'm still furious that the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra, in their otherwise wonderful effort to do all Mahler symphonies this season, only did the first movement of the tenth. They even had the audacity to say something along the lines of "we want to honour Mahler's wishes and will not perform anything he didn't write" ... and during the same season they did the Bartók viola concerto?? The lack of savviness is appalling.

Mahler wrote the 10th from the first movement to the last. All that's needed is orchestration and some details. Of course it will never be as good as it would've been had Mahler finished it, but it's far too important a work to be unheard by lovers of this great composer's music.


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## Guest

Janspe said:


> Mahler wrote the 10th from the first movement to the last. All that's needed is orchestration and some details. Of course it will never be as good as it would've been had Mahler finished it, but it's far too important a work to be unheard by lovers of this great composer's music.


I have not studied Mahler's scores, so I can't argue from direct experience, but I have read that going from short score to full score could involve significant refinement of the material. I gather that it was more than mere "orchestration." I've enjoyed listening to recordings of the completion of the 10th, but I only think of the first movement as _real _Mahler.


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## Becca

The first part of the second and most of the third movements were orchestrated.


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## Guest

Becca said:


> The first part of the second and most of the third movements were orchestrated.


Again, going on second hand information (mostly Wikipedia) the entire second movement exists in full score but is described as "patchy" and difficult to decipher. 30 of 170 bars of the third movement exist in full score.

I have no reservation listening to the Cooke completion with confidence that it represents the best approximation of the music as Mahler imagined it at the time of his death, but with the reservation that the final result might have been quite different had Mahler brought it to completion.


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## Becca

Somewhat the same may be true of the 9th as Mahler never heard it performed and so didn't have the chance to revise it.


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## Larkenfield

za​


Baron Scarpia said:


> Again, going on second hand information (mostly Wikipedia) the entire second movement exists in full score but is described as "patchy" and difficult to decipher. 30 of 170 bars of the third movement exist in full score.
> 
> I have no reservation listening to the Cooke completion with confidence that it represents the music as Mahler imagined it at the time of his death, but with the reservation that the final result might have been quite different had Mahler brought it to completion.


 If you'll forgive the correction: Cooke did a "performance edition" of the 10th and not a "completion". Boy, am I glad that he did! It's one of my favorite Mahler symphonies, and I recommend the Wigglesworth recording.


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## NLAdriaan

I second the Mahler conductors who don't believe in the full tenth. I have heard it, but it doesn't give me anything near the same experience as when listening to Mahler's completed works. But this of course is all personal and everyone who enjoys the full tenth, don't let it rain on your parade.


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## Guest

Larkenfield said:


> za​
> If you'll forgive the correction: Cooke did a "performance edition" of the 10th and not a "completion". Boy, am I glad that he did! It's one of my favorite Mahler symphonies, and I recommend the Wigglesworth recording.


I only know it through a Simon Rattle recording, which I found satisfying.


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## Guest

Becca said:


> Somewhat the same may be true of the 9th as Mahler never heard it performed and so didn't have the chance to revise it.


Well, yes, nothing is ever finished. But Mahler considered the 9th ready for performance (he interrupted work on the 10th to make final revisions). Much closer to a definitive edition than the 10th.


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## Janspe

Baron Scarpia said:


> I have not studied Mahler's scores, so I can't argue from direct experience, but I have read that going from short score to full score could involve significant refinement of the material.


This is of course true. We can only imagine what Mahler would've done with the material he had composed - if only we knew... Cooke's performing version is very much a "bare bones" kind of thing, I feel it especially in the last movement where the music is reduced to the smallest dimensions. Mahler would no doubt have elaborated on the music in various ways.

Be that as it may, I still think the work is far too subtantial not to be realized in a performance. Certainly I _strongly_ disagree with just playing the adagio, I don't think it works on its own. And as far as I've gathered, even _that_ movement wasn't completely finished by Mahler (if anyone can double check this then please do). If a conductor wants to experiment with the 10th, take the whole thing or nothing. This is only my opinion, of course.


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## Josquin13

flamencosketches writes, "On that note, can someone point me in the direction of a great CD that contains Mahler Lieder accompanied by piano rather than orchestra? I would love to see how his songs hold up sans his signature lush orchestration."

I. Mezzo sopranos:

Among mezzos, I don't think the legendary Kathleen Ferrier ever recorded Mahler Lieder with piano accompaniment, but I could be mistaken about that. Nor did Maureen Forrester. Which leaves Christa Ludwig and Dame Janet Baker, among the top Mahler mezzo-sopranos to record the Lieder with piano accompaniment. Ludwig recorded piano versions early in her career, with pianist Gerald Moore, in the late 1950s (and she also sang Mahler in a 1960s recital on the Orfeo label), while Baker recorded her's later in her career, with pianist Geoffrey Parsons (though she was not yet 50 years old). Towards the end of Baker's career, she still had the great artistry, but her voice wasn't quite what it had been in the 1960s, when she made my favorite recording ever of Mahler's 3 orchestral song cycles, with Sir John Barbirolli, for EMI--it's one of my 'desert island' Mahler discs:

(I agree with you on the Ludwig/Karajan Kindertotenlieder, but Mahler singing doesn't get much better than these 'classic' Baker/Barbirolli recordings:












)

--Christa Ludwig, Gerald Moore (piano), 1957-1960:




















https://www.amazon.com/Gerald-Moore...hleen+f errier&qid=1562176008&s=music&sr=1-1
Ludwig, Erik Werba (piano)--1960s recital on Orfeo: https://www.amazon.com/Ausgewählte-...+ludwig+o rfeo&qid=1562263314&s=music&sr=1-1

--Dame Janet Baker, Geoffrey Parsons (piano)--"Mahler's Songs of Youth" (this recording won a Rosette award from the old Penguin Guide):
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7929172--mahler-songs-of-my-youth
https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Songs...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0001ZXMPO

--In addition, Anne Sofie von Otter recorded an excellent CD of Wolf & Mahler Lieder in 1989, for DG, with pianist Ralf Gothoni:
https://www.amazon.com/Wolf-Mahler-...mahler+lieder&qid=1562172687&s=music&sr=1-184













--Brigitte Fassbaender & Thomas Moser, with pianist Cyprien Katsaris: Das Lied von der Erde (piano version)--I'd also recommend this CD, as Katsaris's piano playing is remarkable: 




I wouldn't say "great" (necessarily), but here are some very good mezzos that you may wish to consider:

--Janina Baechle, Markus Hadulla (piano): 




https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EKV3LH4/ref=dm_rogue_digital

--Angelika Kirschlager, Helmut deutsch (piano): 









--Gerhild Romberger, Alfredo Perl (piano): https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Alfre...atch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1562172814&sr=1-194

--Virpi Raisanen, Marita Viitasalo (piano): 




https://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Mahle...atch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1562178839&sr=1-109

Chamber ensemble performance: 
--Gerhild romberger, Stephan Rügamer, Alfredo Perl, Detmolder Kammerorchesterhttps--Das lied von der Erde: 




II. The sopranos:

--Ljuba Welitsch, Paul Ulanowsky (piano)--recorded in 1953:














--Desi Halban, Bruno Walter (piano): Halban's singing may not be to all tastes, but she did record one of the great Mahler 4th's with Bruno Walter in New York, and at that time made these Mahler Lieder recordings with Walter accompanying her at the piano:





https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...mahler+lieder&qid=1562172025&s=music&sr=1-114

--Arleen Auger, Dalton Baldwin (piano): Auger only recorded one Mahler song in her career (apart from her 8th Symphony with Sir Georg Solti), on a 1988 CD entitled "Love Songs" for Delos, but it's a beauty--"Liebst du um Schönheit":






--Anne Schwanewilms, Charles Spencer (piano): 
















https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Kinde...atch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1562172025&sr=1-118

--Sabine Ritterbusch (soprano), Heidi Kommereel (piano): 




--Ann Murray, Malcolm Martineau (piano)--Rückert Lieder:




https://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Mah...watch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1562178723&sr=1-85

I also see that soprano Bernarda Fink has made a recording of Mahler Lieder too, for Harmonia Mundi. I've liked Fink's singing in the past, but haven't heard this disc: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8040249--bernarda-fink-sings-mahler-lieder#tracklist

Chamber performances: 
--Felicity Lott, Schumann Quartett: https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Wagne...atch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1562174217&sr=1-320
--Christine Schaffer, live, Songs of the Wayfarer, Salzburg 2008: 




III. Tenors and baritones:

I don't normally listen to Mahler's Lieder sung by tenors and baritones, even though that was Mahler's preference, but I'd suggest that you look into the recordings by Jose van Dam, Peter Mattei, Florian Boesch, Thomas Hampson, Christoph Pregardien, Siegfried Jerusalem, Christian Gerhaher, Hermann Prey, Bo Skovhus, and Dietrich-Fischer Dieskau--although they may not have all recorded the Lieder with piano accompaniment (but I know some of them have...).

Hope that helps.


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## Josquin13

The TC website isn't allowing me to edit my post, so here's one more Mahler Lieder recording--with piano accompaniment--that I forgot to mention above, and would recommend that you consider: Lorraine Hunt Lieberson singing Mahler's Rückert Lieder live in recital at Wigmore Hall in London, in 1998. She's accompanied by pianist Roger Vignoles.





https://www.amazon.com/Songs-Mahler...ieberson+mahler&qid=1562291057&s=music&sr=1-3


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## Rogerx

Gustav Mahler (Germany : _7 July 1860 _- 18 May 1911)


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## flamencosketches

Happy birthday to Mahler :cheers: one of the greats... going to have to listen to one or a few of his symphonies later on... maybe Das Lied von der Erde...


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## Minor Sixthist

Happy 159th birthday Gustav Mahler! Your death was Tragic and I wish you'd get resurrected. But since those are unlikely I think I'll go listen to your Second symphony to celebrate.


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## MrMeatScience

Janspe said:


> Be that as it may, I still think the work is far too subtantial not to be realized in a performance. Certainly I _strongly_ disagree with just playing the adagio, I don't think it works on its own. And as far as I've gathered, even _that_ movement wasn't completely finished by Mahler (if anyone can double check this then please do). If a conductor wants to experiment with the 10th, take the whole thing or nothing. This is only my opinion, of course.


You're right, although the first movement was about as "done" as can be hoped for in an incomplete work. The Tenth is something of a special interest of mine -- I've looked at a lot of the sketches personally, as some of them ended up in the Austrian National Library. There are 31 pages of full orchestral score in Mahler's hand for the opening adagio, which constitutes a complete 275 bar orchestral draft. About halfway through this, things start to thin out texturally a little bit, with the majority of these holes falling in the woodwind parts. There are also places where lines are implied (he'd write a bar or two of a doubling and then there are several blank measures afterwards -- presumably he meant for the doubling to continue and didn't want to waste what little time he had left writing it all out). Dynamics and indications of phrasing also become less and less common as the draft progresses. Tempo markings are even thinner on the ground.

The Adagio is more or less performable as Mahler left it, especially compared to the other movements -- it's just a matter of reading between the lines a little bit.


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## flamencosketches

I am beginning to really enjoy the 3rd symphony, or more accurately speaking, the first movement of that symphony. Is there anyone else like me who will listen to the first movement of the 3rd and come out on the other side so drained that they can't possibly face the other 5 movements? :lol: That being said, that first movement is one of the greatest he ever wrote. Very evocative music.


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## Mandryka

The third and the seventh are transitional and experimental pieces, and maybe for this reason they don’t get predictable. I like 3,7, 8 9 and possibly 10 very much.


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## millionrainbows

The Third is very dramatic, both in its material and in the way it is paced and orchestrated. It has some of Mahler's unique "twists" on melodies (2:57-3:20 Bernstein),and the minor chord with a major seventh, a chord later used in jazz and in James Bond soundtracks (imagine that twangy James Bond guitar theme coming in during those chords). So this is straight-up music for dramatic effect; in that way, it is totally predictable, yet enjoyable for those harmonic innovations and signatures which place it in a historical context as "innovative."


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> The third and the seventh are transitional and experimental pieces, and maybe for this reason they don't get predictable. I like 3,7, 8 9 and possibly 10 very much.


Didn't I just see a post of yours where you said you didn't like the 8th outside of Gielen's recording? Or am I thinking of someone else. I may have to hear that one as I've only heard Solti and Bernstein and neither really convinced me.


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## millionrainbows

How does one even get a grasp of such a long symphony as the 8th? It's like listening to four normal-length symphonies. I think any judgement as to "liking" it must be qualified by the fact of its length.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Didn't I just see a post of yours where you said you didn't like the 8th outside of Gielen's recording? Or am I thinking of someone else. I may have to hear that one as I've only heard Solti and Bernstein and neither really convinced me.


When he sings "Blicket Auf" on the Solti recording it's a wonderful moment.

You should see the 8th as a prelude to the 9th.


----------



## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> How does one even get a grasp of such a long symphony as the 8th? It's like listening to four normal-length symphonies. I think any judgement as to "liking" it must be qualified by the fact of its length.


What a wimp! You'd better never go to Parsifal or Rheingold.

It's in two halves you know, so you can have a break after Veni Creatus Spiritus.


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## Mandryka

Does anyone know if Bruno Walter said anything about Mahler 8? Did he perform it?


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## NLAdriaan

flamencosketches said:


> I am beginning to really enjoy the 3rd symphony, or more accurately speaking, the first movement of that symphony. Is there anyone else like me who will listen to the first movement of the 3rd and come out on the other side so drained that they can't possibly face the other 5 movements? :lol: That being said, that first movement is one of the greatest he ever wrote. Very evocative music.


Nice that you are appreciating the third, it is my personal favourite classical music piece from early on. After you have absorbed the first part (subtitle: Sommer marches in), you might as well listen to the second part in isolation too (subtitle: what the flowers in the meadow tell me), and the third again (What the animals in the forest tell me), the fourth and the fifth together (What night (man) tells me/ What the morning bells (Angels) tell me-->Bimm-Bamm). The final 6th part (What love tells me) is in any case a piece in its own right. Incredible from the beginning onward. At the 1995 Mahlerfeest in Amsterdam, I heard Haitink conducting the VPO in the third. The first 5 parts were actually not that good, but in the 6th the wonderful Viennese string sections took over and gave the most moving playing imaginable.

In fact the third is a symphony of serial chapters (program music) and not the regular format. From the subtitles you may recognize that Mahler wanted to cover everything in it, earth, life, heaven, love.

Many find it too long, there are not that many conductors able to keep it alive from beginning to end, it is very demanding. But it fully deserves your attention. A masterpiece to me at least, the most beautiful symphony ever written.

What version are you listening to?

I hope you will get to learn it, part by part is actually a very good idea, and will enjoy your journey.


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## Becca

millionrainbows said:


> How does one even get a grasp of such a long symphony as the 8th? It's like listening to four normal-length symphonies. I think any judgement as to "liking" it must be qualified by the fact of its length.


Except that the 3rd is longer than the 8th, as are many performances of 2nd. The average performance length of the 6th->9th are all approximately the same. I think that many people have difficulty grasping the 8th due to its apparent complexity, mostly from the addition of all the various vocal threads.


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## MrMeatScience

Mandryka said:


> Does anyone know if Bruno Walter said anything about Mahler 8? Did he perform it?


He was involved in the premiere, helped to coach the singers and I think even pick some of them out. I don't believe he ever took it on as the principal conductor, though.


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## Becca

flamencosketches said:


> Didn't I just see a post of yours where you said you didn't like the 8th outside of Gielen's recording? Or am I thinking of someone else. I may have to hear that one as I've only heard Solti and Bernstein and neither really convinced me.


As I have said quite a few times, I think that the most convincing case for the 8th is made by the Proms performance with Rattle/Nat'l Youth Orchestra of GB. The Dudamel/LAPO/Simon Bolivar Orch comes very close. In both cases you should watch the video.


----------



## NLAdriaan

millionrainbows said:


> How does one even get a grasp of such a long symphony as the 8th? It's like listening to four normal-length symphonies. I think any judgement as to "liking" it must be qualified by the fact of its length.


Mahler 8 is not the longest symphony, not even by Mahler. The 9th, 6th and the 3rd are longer, as well as Bruckner 8, when played in 'normal' tempo. Never heard anyone complaining about the length of the 6th or the 9th or Bruckner 8.

Mahler 8 however is best experienced live in concert. A lot is happening there and huge vocal climaxes are alternated with almost chamber music. Mahler 8 is something of an event, a thrill. If you are ever in the audience, you will absolutely get it. But on record, it is a difficult piece to experience, doesn't come anywhere near to hearing it live.


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## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> What a wimp! You'd better never go to Parsifal or Rheingold.
> 
> It's in two halves you know, so you can have a break after Veni Creatus Spiritus.


Okay...where's your bathroom?

Mahler's 8th_ is _for wimps, compared to Morton Feldman's 6-hour String Quartet no. 2. The performers considered the use of catheters in its performance, but instead did not drink fluids before hand.


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## flamencosketches

Becca said:


> As I have said quite a few times, I think that the most convincing case for the 8th is made by the Proms performance with Rattle/Nat'l Youth Orchestra of GB. The Dudamel/LAPO/Simon Bolivar Orch comes very close. In both cases you should watch the video.


You've showed me the video of the Rattle/National Youth Orchestra finale before. It was really good for a youth orchestra. Sometime I'll try and check out the rest of it.

@NL, I have been listening to the Bernstein as well as the Horenstein 3rd. I like the Bernstein better I think. Listened to that one this morning.


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## Guest

Becca said:


> As I have said quite a few times, I think that the most convincing case for the 8th is made by the *Proms performance* with Rattle/Nat'l Youth Orchestra of GB. The Dudamel/LAPO/Simon Bolivar Orch comes very close. In both cases you should watch the video.


Are you able to tune in to the Proms for live radio broadcasts from the USA? All or most of the individual concerts are broadcast live by the BBC on its Radio 3 channel. As you may know, this year the season starts on 19 July. There is a BBC music forum dedicated to Radio 3 programmes. Each year there is a special section that focuses on the Proms, and often there's a lot of very good analysis by several well-informed members.


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## Becca

I can mostly get the Radio 3 broadcasts although hearing them in real time is often a problem given the 8 hour time difference. The big question is how many of them I care to listen to!


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## Guest

Becca said:


> I can mostly get the Radio 3 broadcasts although hearing them in real time is often a problem given the 8 hour time difference. The big question is how many of them I care to listen to!


Ah yes of course the time difference.

To tell you the truth, I only listen to a small number of live Proms concerts in a typical year. What I generally do is glance through the reviews on the BBC website I referred to and take my cue from there. If there's anything very good that's been performed it normally gets flagged up within a few days. If it looks as though it might be of interest me I use the "listen again" service for up to a month after broadcast.

A good thing about the internet streams is that they're at high bit rates, so the sound quality is decent. The main problem I have with Albert Hall concerts is the audience noise which sometimes I find rather spoils things, for me at least as I'm not tolerant in that regard. The chamber music concerts from Cadogan Hall are usually a lot better on the noise front.


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## Guest

NLAdriaan said:


> Mahler 8 is not the longest symphony, not even by Mahler. The 9th, 6th and the 3rd are longer, as well as Bruckner 8, when played in 'normal' tempo. Never heard anyone complaining about the length of the 6th or the 9th or Bruckner 8.
> 
> *Mahler 8 however is best experienced live in concert.* A lot is happening there and huge vocal climaxes are alternated with almost chamber music. Mahler 8 is something of an event, a thrill. If you are ever in the audience, you will absolutely get it. But on record, it is a difficult piece to experience, doesn't come anywhere near to hearing it live.


Mahler 8 is best experience live, from the concerto hall cafe, preferably with a glass of a nice pinot.


----------



## Larkenfield

Mandryka said:


> Does anyone know if Bruno Walter said anything about Mahler 8? Did he perform it?


He never performed it that I know of, at least with the New York Philharmonic. He never performed the third, sixth, seventh or eighth. He particularly did not like the sixth because he thought it was too tragic. Walter is an interesting conductor because he was a friend and colleague of the composer but I've long felt that he sat in judgment of him too and certain of his symphonies, either that he didn't approve of them, understand them, or didn't care for them. He would perform the first, second, fourth, fifth, and ninth, and Song of the Earth, in case I missed some of his other recordings. Nevertheless, in what he did record, I felt it was idiomatic and outstanding. What I mean by idiomatic is that it somehow seems highly characteristic of Mahler in the expression of form, phrasing, dynamics, and sentiment - the spirit and intentions behind it seem authentic.


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## flamencosketches

Opinions on the following recent recording?










I am a big, big fan of the 1st symphony, but have never heard it in its original, "Titan" form from when it had been conceived initially as a symphonic poem. Anyway, this is available dirt cheap on Amazon MP3, so I'm considering purchasing it.

I just picked up this:









... at the local record store for a couple bucks. Excited to give it a spin, probably tomorrow morning. It's a good 5 minutes shorter than the Bernstein/NYPO recording that I like to listen to, and shorter than the Solti/LSO that I also have. I expect that this relatively early recording lacks Klemperer's notorious slow tempi. But I think his style would be perfect for this symphony, maybe. Any opinions?


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## Becca

The Klemperer/Philharmonia recording is one of the best available. One of the few which I think is even better is his live performance with the Bavarian Radio S.O. Despite the conventional opinions, Klemperer wasn't always slow and with one exception (the 7th) his Mahler recordings never really got that way. I have commented numerous times on how so many of the Mahler recordings seem to have gotten slower and I'm not sure why. Conductors who knew Mahler, e.g. Walter, Mengelberg, Klemperer, did not drag on the tempi. Barbirolli who did not know Mahler, but who knew and worked with musicians who did know him from the NYPO, also mostly avoided the dreaded slowdown!


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## flamencosketches

Thanks for your input, Becca. I know that Klemperer is not always slow, and perhaps only became known for such later on as a result of his declining health and stamina. I'll write back with what I think. I love Bernstein's Mahler 2nd, but I understand that he really slowed down some of the tempi such as the last movement, which is definitely not Im Tempo des Scherzos on his NYPO recording...

... and now an open ended question to the people of the thread: of the famous Mahler conductors who actually knew and worked with the composer–Klemperer, Walter, and Mengelberg–which is your favorite?


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## Becca

Not in the famous category but another conductor who knew and worked with Mahler and who made a few recordings is F. Charles Adler


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## Woodduck

flamencosketches said:


> Thanks for your input, Becca. I know that Klemperer is not always slow, and perhaps only became known for such later on as a result of his declining health and stamina. I'll write back with what I think. I love Bernstein's Mahler 2nd, but I understand that he really slowed down some of the tempi such as the last movement, which is definitely not Im Tempo des Scherzos on his NYPO recording...
> 
> ... and now an open ended question to the people of the thread: of the famous Mahler conductors who actually knew and worked with the composer-Klemperer, Walter, and Mengelberg-which is your favorite?


Though not a Mahler connoisseur, I do find that those conductors who knew the composer left recordings that fully satisfy me. These would include Klemperer's 2nd symphony and his _Das Lied_ with Christa Ludwig and Fritz Wunderlich, as well as Mengelbeg's 4th symphony (though his soprano is not my favorite) and the "Adagietto" from the 5th. I wish Mengelberg had recorded more of the symphonies, if only as documents of an extinct style of conducting which I think came down through Mahler from Wagner and saw tempo modification as an important tool of expression (read Wagner's essay, "On Conducting"). Mengelberg did make quite a few recordings of other things, including a Liszt "Les Preludes" that makes everyone else's sound pedestrian.


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## Mandryka

Woodduck said:


> Though not a Mahler connoisseur, I do find that those conductors who knew the composer left recordings that fully satisfy me. These would include Klemperer's 2nd symphony and his _Das Lied_ with Christa Ludwig and Fritz Wunderlich, as well as Mengelbeg's 4th symphony (though his soprano is not my favorite) and the "Adagietto" from the 5th. I wish Mengelberg had recorded more of the symphonies, if only as documents of an extinct style of conducting which I think came down through Mahler from Wagner and saw tempo modification as an important tool of expression (read Wagner's essay, "On Conducting"). Mengelberg did make quite a few recordings of other things, including a Liszt "Les Preludes" that makes everyone else's sound pedestrian.


More interesting than a recording by Mengelberg would be a performance by Mahler.


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## CnC Bartok

It's quite tough to do a meaningful ranking on these three conductors in Mahler, seeing as there's so little to consider when it comes to Mengelberg. That Concertgebouw Fourth is a very fine performance, but there are limits to my tolerance with such old recordings, and no they don't really capture the soprano well. Actually I bought that Decca Concertgebouw box for the first performance of the Bartok Violin Concerto! Oh and the Beethoven symphony set.

Of the other two better familiarity with Klemperer would have to put him on top, an overlooked Fourth, a very fine Ninth (Walter is devastating in one of his earlier recordings, though) and a supreme Second and Das Lied. I do still have serious insurmountable issues with his Seventh, although a cousin of mine - a serious Mahler expert - thinks very highly of it, so there's a tiny bit inside that still is willing to accept that it's "just me".

Walter's Lied with Kathleen Ferrier Is a remarkable document of course, but I think his New York remake is not on the same level. It's tight on the other works where direct comparison is possible.

Btw, that Klemperer Second is a minute faster in your CD issue, flamenco! In the remastered box it's just over 80 minutes. Conclusion? They sped up the masters to fit it in a single CD!!!


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## CnC Bartok

Becca said:


> Not in the famous category but another conductor who knew and worked with Mahler and who made a few recordings is F. Charles Adler


The only Adler Mahler I know is the Third ( possibly my favourite Mahler work?) An interesting performance, he is very rhapsodic in the first movement, works brilliantly. The Finale there is wonderful too.


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## flamencosketches

CnC Bartok said:


> It's quite tough to do a meaningful ranking on these three conductors in Mahler, seeing as there's so little to consider when it comes to Mengelberg. That Concertgebouw Fourth is a very fine performance, but there are limits to my tolerance with such old recordings, and no they don't really capture the soprano well. Actually I bought that Decca Concertgebouw box for the first performance of the Bartok Violin Concerto! Oh and the Beethoven symphony set.
> 
> Of the other two better familiarity with Klemperer would have to put him on top, an overlooked Fourth, a very fine Ninth (Walter is devastating in one of his earlier recordings, though) and a supreme Second and Das Lied. I do still have serious insurmountable issues with his Seventh, although a cousin of mine - a serious Mahler expert - thinks very highly of it, so there's a tiny bit inside that still is willing to accept that it's "just me".
> 
> Walter's Lied with Kathleen Ferrier Is a remarkable document of course, but I think his New York remake is not on the same level. It's tight on the other works where direct comparison is possible.
> 
> Btw, that Klemperer Second is a minute faster in your CD issue, flamenco! In the remastered box it's just over 80 minutes. Conclusion? They sped up the masters to fit it in a single CD!!!


Damn! I knew that must be happening with some of these Mahler recordings... so many Mahler symphony recordings clock in at right about 79 minutes.

Anyway, I'm listening now, first movement... really enjoying it so far, but it is seriously fast!! Can't believe how much faster it is than Bernstein's and also Solti's. But it really is an excellent performance.

Does anyone have the EMI/Warner Classics Klemperer box set of Mahler symphonies? Curious if the 2nd is sped up there too... I am also really curious about his 4th and 7th (which is notoriously SLOW as hell... clocking in at over 100 minutes last I checked...) I already have the Klemperer Philharmonia 2nd and Das Lied on CD, so I would be getting some duplicates, but maybe the remaster used for the box set is worthwhile?


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## Becca

False assumption ... the actual limit on a 700MB CD is around 81.5 minutes so there was no reason for them to speed it up. It is even possible to go beyond that on pressed discs and there are a few commercial recordings in the 82-83 minute range. It is worth noting that the timings for Klemperer's BRSO 2nd are almost identical to the studio recording.


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## Woodduck

Becca said:


> False assumption ... the actual limit on a 700MB CD is around 81.5 minutes so there was no reason for them to speed it up. It is even possible to go beyond that on pressed discs and there are a few commercial recordings in the 82-83 minute range. It is worth noting that the timings for Klemperer's BRSO 2nd are almost identical to the studio recording.


Does this present a problem for burning copies? CD-Rs are limited to exactly 80 minutes, are they not?


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## Becca

Woodduck said:


> Does this present a problem for burning copies? CD-Rs are limited to exactly 80 minutes, are they not?


Most software will make that assumption however there are some tools that explicitly allow you to exceed that. To quote from the instructions on one program:
"Allow [the program] to write more than the official size of a medium. This feature is usually called overburning and depends on the fact that most blank media may hold more space than the official size. As the official size of the lead-out area on the disk is 90 seconds (6750 sectors) and a disk usually works if there are at least 150 sectors of lead out, all media may be overburned by at least 88 seconds (6600 sectors)."

In the case of commercially pressed CDs:
"In the Mozart 225 box set, many of the CDs exceed this duration, and some are even longer than 85 minutes. The longest CD in this set clocks in at 86:30."


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## CnC Bartok

Becca said:


> False assumption ... the actual limit on a 700MB CD is around 81.5 minutes so there was no reason for them to speed it up. It is even possible to go beyond that on pressed discs and there are a few commercial recordings in the 82-83 minute range. It is worth noting that the timings for Klemperer's BRSO 2nd are almost identical to the studio recording.


Yeah, but don't forget the maximum length of a CD has increased over the years, whether by pushing the boundaries, or by changing the encoding. When they got Otto onto CD for the first time, there was no way anything over 80 minutes would work. Back in the day, the first accepted maximum was 74 minutes....

The EMI Klemperer/Mahler box has the "full length" Resurrection, if you get my drift....


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## Becca

I haven't forgotten that but the statement about nothing over 80 is wrong, the comments above refer to the official specifications from when the 80 minute discs became available. More importantly I have the Klemperer on the blue label US Angel vinyl records from the late 60s and there was no difference. It wouldn't be the first time that I have encountered cases where they got the printed timings wrong on one of the releases or have accounted differently for the inter-track gaps.

P.S. The published difference is 79.25 vs 80.15 so if they wanted to get below 80 minutes they didn't have to remove 50 seconds vs 15.


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## Larkenfield

CnC Bartok said:


> Btw, that Klemperer Second is a minute faster in your CD issue, flamenco! In the remastered box it's just over 80 minutes. Conclusion? They sped up the masters to fit it in a single CD!!!


With all due respect, if the master had been speeded up, the pitch of the performance would have been _sharp_ in pitch to the other movements. I believe it's more reasonable to conclude that they somehow managed to fit the entire performance on a CD without tampering with the speed of the master. Such a speed-up and change in pitch would have been easily noticed. And not only would the pitch have changed but so would the pace of the tempo, no matter how slight it might have seemed.


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## CnC Bartok

There was a big discussion on this on Amazon UK when the EMI box came out, individuals comparing with the GROTC issue, EMI France, my older CDC Issue. Included insider knowledge, apparently it's true (!) Whether or not the reasons are correct, the timings are different. And I checked for myself the run-ins and outs aren't curtailed. 

That said, a simple increase in tape speed of approx 1% would indeed alter the pitch (middle C 261 Hz to , say 264 Hz, whereas C# is 277 Hz. which maybe gives a rough guide to how sharp it'd be) I wouldn't not know if this would be enough of a difference for me to notice, and between the two masterings and I have to be honest and say I can't tell the difference between the two, but I am sure the more musically sensitive might?


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## Becca

CnC Bartok said:


> There was a big discussion on this on Amazon UK when the EMI box came out, individuals comparing with the GROTC issue, EMI France, my older CDC Issue. Included insider knowledge, apparently it's true (!) Whether or not the reasons are correct, the timings are different. And I checked for myself the run-ins and outs aren't curtailed.
> 
> That said, a simple increase in tape speed of approx 1% would indeed alter the pitch (middle C 261 Hz to , say 264 Hz, whereas C# is 277 Hz. which maybe gives a rough guide to how sharp it'd be) I wouldn't not know if this would be enough of a difference for me to notice, and between the two masterings and I have to be honest and say I can't tell the difference between the two, but I am sure the more musically sensitive might?


I didn't mention it at the time but it has long been possible to change pitch without changing tempo and vice-versa. It used to be done by a special type of tape recorder with rotating heads but now is done in software (e.g. Audacity.) However I would question the logic of adjusting by 50 seconds when only 16 was necessary to fit the official CD limits - that doesn't make sense.


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## Merl

Klemperer could do with some speeding up. Lol


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## Littlephrase

Merl said:


> Klemperer could do with some speeding up. Lol


With his recording of the 7th, yes. With his other Mahler, especially 2 and Das Lied, no.


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## flamencosketches

Klemperer’s Resurrection symphony is the fastest of the few I’ve heard. He really zips through the first movement. Even if I were to slow it down by a full minute, it’d still be fast!


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## Guest

Going to have another go at Mahler 7. Which should I bring down from the shelf? 

My choices are (quoting from memory) Boulez (DG), Bernstein (Sony) Bernstein (DG) Chailly, Haitink (RCO), Maazel (WPO), Bertini (EMI), Kubelik (DG), Neumann (Supraphon), Solti. 

Wow, I have way too much Mahler for someone who is not obsessed with Mahler.


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## CnC Bartok

^^^^ I seriously rate the Neumann Mahler 7th as one of the very best out there!


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## Guest

CnC Bartok said:


> ^^^^ I seriously rate the Neumann Mahler 7th as one of the very best out there!


Maybe I'll go with that then, it's one of the recordings of the 7th that I haven't listened to yet.


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## Mandryka

Is this very very good or very very bad?


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Thanks for your input, Becca. I know that Klemperer is not always slow, and perhaps only became known for such later on as a result of his declining health and stamina. I'll write back with what I think. I love Bernstein's Mahler 2nd, but I understand that he really slowed down some of the tempi such as the last movement, which is definitely not Im Tempo des Scherzos on his NYPO recording...
> 
> ... and now an open ended question to the people of the thread: of the famous Mahler conductors who actually knew and worked with the composer-Klemperer, Walter, and Mengelberg-which is your favorite?


Is this a very very good performance or a very very bad performance


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## Becca

A generally good overview of the Mahler symphony recordings, albeit a bit out of date now as the author is deceased, is Tony Duggan's set of comparative reviews. While I don't agree with everything he says, I think they are worth perusing. Do a search on 'Duggan Mahler'.

Incidentally, from what I remember, Scherchen tends to both good & bad extremes.


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## CnC Bartok

^^^^ Here's Tony Duggan, agree or disagree all you like, makes a good read.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/index.html


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## Mandryka

Scherchen's always going to be compromised by things which I don't much care about -- the sound quality isn't like a modern state of the art recording, and he made big demands from second rate orchestras so the playing is inevitably a bit sloppy.

The real question, and I really can't answer it, I'm not enough of a Mahlerian, is whether these interpretations are revealing and valuable, or whether he he was an early champion of the composer.

One of the reasons I'm interested is that Scherchen was an active supporter of the avant garde when he made these recordings, I don't believe Klemperer was all his life, maybe in the early days in Berlin but not when he was with the Philharmonia. There's this question: is Mahler modern? I don't think so. 

My feeling is that most of Mahler's music is just too predictable to be any good, the second symphony is a case in point. You hear it twice and you can hum the whole thing.


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## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> Scherchen's always going to be compromised by things which I don't much care about -- the sound quality isn't like a modern state of the art recording, and he made big demands from second rate orchestras so the playing is inevitably a bit sloppy.
> 
> The real question, and I really can't answer it, I'm not enough of a Mahlerian, is whether these interpretations are revealing and valuable, or whether he he was an early champion of the composer.
> 
> One of the reasons I'm interested is that Scherchen was an active supporter of the avant garde when he made these recordings, I don't believe Klemperer was all his life, maybe in the early days in Berlin but not when he was with the Philharmonia. There's this question: is Mahler modern? I don't think so.
> 
> My feeling is that most of Mahler's music is just too predictable to be any good, the second symphony is a case in point. You hear it twice and you can hum the whole thing.


You're starting to sound like Paul Best. (forgive me)

The way I see Mahler, whatever little portents and signposts I can get, like those dissonant chords in the Ninth and Sixth, I'll take gladly, and my omnivorous nature lets me take in the rest, well aware that it's somewhat predictably tonal.

As far as Scherchen, he is one of the best. Any sloppiness you may hear is due to his demanding tempos; it's not his fault. This is a small price to pay for the clarity and understanding he brings. As far as the sound quality, it's good for the 1950's mono that it is. Westminster was a good label as far as engineering.


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## millionrainbows

Concerning Mahler: I would say that Scherchen is a better alternative to Bruno Walter, if one is going to listen to old mono recordings from the 1950's.


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## flamencosketches

I'm going to give some of Walter's Mahler recordings a fair shot. I think he is an excellent conductor. One of the all-time greats. But I think he shines most in Mozart and Beethoven, so I'm having a hard time picturing his Mahler. I think it's pretty amazing that he recorded so many of the Mahler symphonies long before Mahler was widely played and recorded. He also premiered a couple of the symphonies, no? The 8th and 9th, maybe Das Lied?


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## MrMeatScience

He "only" premiered 9 and Das Lied, but he was involved in the premiere of the 8th (which Mahler conducted in Munich, 1910).


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## flamencosketches

Ah of course, I remember that Mahler premiered the 8th, it was a huge success for him, no? I wonder what reception was like for the premieres of 9 and Das Lied...


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## flamencosketches

Listening to the 10th symphony Adagio for the first time. 25 minutes of meandering string melodies, what a joy  Just kidding, it is good, but I don't know if I can stomach a Mahler adagio (especially with Lenny at the helm) outside the context of the rest of the symphony! I must hear the completed version at once!


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## flamencosketches

Listening now to Mahler's 7th symphony for the first time...









... why did no one warn me that it would be this good...?  :lol: I was certainly expecting worse considering how controversial it is... seems to be a real love it or hate it ordeal.

... just beautiful... surely one of Mahler's greatest Scherzi, no?

What do you good people think of this symphony? It may be the novelty speaking, but I am really enjoying all this. I'm also curious to hear Klemperer's notoriously glacial, apocalyptic interpretation... what are some of our favorite versions?


----------



## Becca

I have been impressed by Abbado ... both Chicago & Lucerne, also Rattle with Berlin, however I would say that my current favourite is Gielen/SWR. As to Klemperer, it certainly seems to be a love or dislike situation, with me mostly on the latter side.


----------



## Larkenfield

flamencosketches said:


> Listening now to Mahler's 7th symphony for the first time...
> 
> View attachment 121895
> 
> 
> ... why did no one warn me that it would be this good...?  :lol: I was certainly expecting worse considering how controversial it is... seems to be a real love it or hate it ordeal.
> 
> ... just beautiful... surely one of Mahler's greatest Scherzi, no?
> 
> What do you good people think of this symphony? It may be the novelty speaking, but I am really enjoying all this. I'm also curious to hear Klemperer's notoriously glacial, apocalyptic interpretation... what are some of our favorite versions?


It's a personal favorite because it's full of such rich content. But it can fall apart in the wrong hands and sound episodic or disjointed. My favorite recording is by Michael Tilson Thomas and the LSO. I think it really holds up well with repeated hearings, the same as the Sixth if the middle two movements are played according to Mahler's published wishes (A-S).


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## Littlephrase

flamencosketches said:


> Listening now to Mahler's 7th symphony for the first time...
> 
> View attachment 121895
> 
> 
> ... why did no one warn me that it would be this good...?  :lol: I was certainly expecting worse considering how controversial it is... seems to be a real love it or hate it ordeal.
> 
> ... just beautiful... surely one of Mahler's greatest Scherzi, no?
> 
> What do you good people think of this symphony? It may be the novelty speaking, but I am really enjoying all this. I'm also curious to hear Klemperer's notoriously glacial, apocalyptic interpretation... what are some of our favorite versions?


It is a wonderful, wonderful symphony. The cases of the detractors (especially those regarding the finale as belabored and bombastic) have never made sense to me. Perhaps I'm a blind Mahlerian.


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## flamencosketches

I would not have described the finale as bombastic. Schizophrenic, maybe.


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## Granate

In my opinion, No.7's Langsam-Allegro is my favourite single movement composed by Mahler. I'm always fascinated by the journey the music goes through.


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## flamencosketches

Any fans of Boulez's Mahler recordings for DG, with various orchestras? What are some standout recordings here?

I am listening to the 5th now with the Vienna Philharmonic. It's phenomenal, I think. Boulez's famously crystal clear textures really bring out a lot of richness in this symphony. Honestly, I think his conducting style is perfect for Mahler, given how detailed his scores are.


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## Becca

I have not heard any of Boulez' Mahler recording but I have attended a live performance he did of the 5th with the LAPO at the Ojai Festival. Strangely it was not particularly memorable other than the Ojai concert atmosphere. I say 'strangely' because most live Mahler performances I have attended - Abbado, Barbirolli, Solti, Rattle etc., have been memorable.

Regarding your comment about conducting style and detailed scores, the devil indeed is in the details and any conductor who starts worrying too much about all the details has lost before he even starts.


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## flamencosketches

^Give the recording a shot some time, I think you might see what I mean. That could have just been an off night. His sense of pacing is immaculate, and this is in addition to certain details and textures that don't always come through in other recordings.


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## MrMeatScience

flamencosketches said:


> Any fans of Boulez's Mahler recordings for DG, with various orchestras? What are some standout recordings here?
> View attachment 121913


I recently did a blind listening to 20-some recordings of the First, and Boulez's came out amongst the top handful. It's very different from Bernstein's Mahler, which I like but almost never find myself reaching for. Others I rated highly are the famous Kubelik, Nezet-Seguin's with the BRSO, and Gielen's, IIRC -- I don't have my notes immediately to hand.


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## Bwv 1080

flamencosketches said:


> Any fans of Boulez's Mahler recordings for DG, with various orchestras? What are some standout recordings here?
> 
> I am listening to the 5th now with the Vienna Philharmonic. It's phenomenal, I think. Boulez's famously crystal clear textures really bring out a lot of richness in this symphony. Honestly, I think his conducting style is perfect for Mahler, given how detailed his scores are.
> 
> View attachment 121913


Am a fan, but I like to hear different interpretations. Boulez's style works best on the 7th IMO


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## millionrainbows

Is Boulez "emotional" enough for a satisfying Mahler experience? Should a Mahler experience be "emotional"?

There was a post in 'Current Listening' about Mahler's Ninth, with some interesting quotes. This 'goodbye' symphony may have been more than that. While it has the implication of a single individual saying 'goodbye' to life in this world, I see it as a larger commentary on the world at that time as well. 

Mahler left Austria to come to New York, and there are militaristic-sounding horn fanfares in the Ninth. I've heard this same 'militaristic' marching effect in the Sixth too. I think Mahler was a pacifist, and maintained a thread of militaristic-sounding themes throughout his entire body of work. I'm curious as to whether anybody else has heard this theme in Mahler.


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## starthrower

Boulez/Mahler No.6 is a good one. As is No.8. And the Lieder CD on DG with Anne Sofie von Otter is superb! It's a great sounding disc.


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> Is Boulez "emotional" enough for a satisfying Mahler experience? Should a Mahler experience be "emotional"?
> 
> There was a post in 'Current Listening' about Mahler's Ninth, with some interesting quotes. This 'goodbye' symphony may have been more than that. While it has the implication of a single individual saying 'goodbye' to life in this world, I see it as a larger commentary on the world at that time as well.
> 
> Mahler left Austria to come to New York, and there are militaristic-sounding horn fanfares in the Ninth. I've heard this same 'militaristic' marching effect in the Sixth too. I think Mahler was a pacifist, and maintained a thread of militaristic-sounding themes throughout his entire body of work. I'm curious as to whether anybody else has heard this theme in Mahler.


I find Boulez's Mahler no less "emotional" than anyone else's. I think a false dichotomy is being made.


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## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> Any fans of Boulez's Mahler recordings for DG, with various orchestras? What are some standout recordings here?
> 
> I am listening to the 5th now with the Vienna Philharmonic. It's phenomenal, I think. Boulez's famously crystal clear textures really bring out a lot of richness in this symphony. Honestly, I think his conducting style is perfect for Mahler, given how detailed his scores are.


Boulez is the conductor who made me finally fall in love with Mahler. My second choice is Gielen, not entirely dissimilar - they represent the kind of Mahler interpretation that touches me the most. Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra's chief conductor Susanna Mälkki has been givin me the same vibes in recent years, her 6th and Das Lied von der Erde were phenomenal.


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## Bwv 1080

Gielen is my conductor for 2020. Last year was Boulez, the year before was Kubilek


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## starthrower

I'm still going through the Gielen set. And I ordred the Klemperer box.


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## Minneapple

I grew up with the Bruno Walter recording of the 9th. A definite favourite of mine!


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## Merl

Over the years one particular symphony has grown on me with repeated listens and that's the 7th. It's gone from one of my least favourite Mahler symphonies to one of my faves. The same happened to me with the 4th. Maybe its old age. Who knows?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> Over the years one particular symphony has grown on me with repeated listens and that's the 7th. It's gone from one of my least favourite Mahler symphonies to one of my faves. The same happened to me with the 4th. Maybe its old age. Who knows?


I personally have never understood why the 7th tends to receive such a bad rap as Mahler's toughest-to-love symphony. I have loved it from the moment I first heard it. The first movement is amazing, some of the most inspired music he wrote (and really very Wagnerian). The three middle movements are extraordinary in their treatment of instrumental color. And yes, the finale seems tacked on and long-winded. But there really is something so hilariously Mahlerian in it- it's so over the top that I find it funny, almost self-deprecating in its blatancy- kind of like Mahler is making fun of his own Mahler-ness. Overall I rank it right in the middle of his symphonic ouevre; higher than the 1st, 5th, 8th, and 3rd.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I personally have never understood why the 7th tends to receive such a bad rap as Mahler's toughest-to-love symphony. I have loved it from the moment I first heard it. The first movement is amazing, some of the most inspired music he wrote (and really very Wagnerian). The three middle movements are extraordinary in their treatment of instrumental color. And yes, the finale seems tacked on and long-winded. But there really is something so hilariously Mahlerian in it- it's so over the top that I find it funny, almost self-deprecating in its blatancy- kind of like Mahler is making fun of his own Mahler-ness. Overall I rank it right in the middle of his symphonic ouevre; higher than the 1st, 5th, 8th, and 3rd.


I just didn't get the 7th for a while but then it clicked for me and every year has moved up one in the pecking order. Over the past few years it's been a firm fave. Inversely, I still baulk at some performances of the 3rd (a symphony I feel is far too long) but other accounts resonate with me. The only Mahler symphony I still cannot bear is the 8th. I've tried and tried and tried but it does absolutely nothing for me and sounds like a load of old random caterwauling with little discernable melody but that's just a personal thing . I know some love it and that's cool but I find many heavily choral symphonies a challenge and that one a bridge too far. But who knows... Maybe one day!


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## Guest

I've probably listened to the 7th less frequently than my "favorites," 5, 6, 9, but I enjoyed it a great deal recently listening to the Neuman/Czech Philharmonic recording. I'd say it is harder to pigeonhole because it doesn't have as obvious an "emotional" program as some of the others, but the music is among the best Mahler wrote, as I hear it.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Fairly soon (within a couple of weeks) I'm going to begin my next large "listening project" I vowed to undertake in the new year- I'm going to make my way chronologically through Mahler's complete works. I figured if there's any composer I'm going to do this with, someone who was as limited in his output as Mahler would be a great option. I'm planning on posting my Mahler journey in the Current Listening thread, so if you're at all interested, you can track my progress there. I plan to listen to various interpreters along the way and share my thoughts. I'm pretty excited for it, but I'm loading up on some lighthearted operas and Classical Period works in the days leading up to the start of this project, because I'm know I'm going to miss simple, naive music for a while After the tiny Piano Quartet fragment, my first big assignment will be _Das Klagende Lied_, a large-scale cantata that is hardly ever talked about. Has anyone heard that work and can tell me what to expect?


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## Becca

Klagende Lied is not that uncommon, I suspect many here know it. I presume that you know its history regarding the first section? I do recommend that you listen to the complete 3 section work. As to what to expect of it, I'm not sure what I would compare it to, if anything ... perhaps Berlioz' Damnation of Faust?


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## flamencosketches

Becca said:


> Klagende Lied is not that uncommon, I suspect many here know it. I presume that you know its history regarding the first section? I do recommend that you listen to the complete 3 section work. As to what to expect of it, I'm not sure what I would compare it to, if anything ... perhaps Berlioz' Damnation of Faust?


I'm not sure whether or not your presumption is correct, but in any case, I am out of the loop. Would you care to enlighten me? What history of the first movement are you referring to? Maybe there is some resource on the internet that explains it in some depth.

@ACB, good luck and enjoy!! I did the same thing a few months ago but did not include _Das klagende Lied_ which I do not have, but I really want to hear the Boulez recording on Sony. But I really do not need any more Mahler recordings.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I guess some research is in order! Wiki's Mahler articles are actually very good, so I'll use them as my main listening guides. As for recording guides, I will consult Tony Duggan's famous online surveys for each symphony, but I'm definitely not going to be a slave to his recommendations considering they're quite controversial (or so I hear). Some Mahler interpreters I have not really checked out that I want to in this project include Tennstedt, Bertini, Walter, and Horenstein.


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## Becca

Mahler originally wrote it in 3 parts but in 1893, 4 years after composing it, and after other revisions, he suppressed the first part . The first public performance in the 2 movement version was not until 1901. It was only in 1969 that a copy of the full original score came to light. The first recording of the 3 movement work was by Pierre Boulez however it had been originally been done in the 2 movement form and they went back and added the first movement to the recording (with some different soloists??) You will probably notice some stylistic differences between the first movement and the rest as Mahler did revise the second and third movements after suppressing the first.


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## Becca

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I will consult Tony Duggan's famous online surveys for each symphony, but I'm definitely not going to be a slave to his recommendations considering *they're quite controversial* (or so I hear).


Only by those who vehemently disagree with his opinions :lol:

If you don't include Walter, Horenstein, Klemperer and Barbirolli amongst your choices, you are doing yourself a disservice as in some ways they have the closest links back to Mahler. Walter and Klemperer as they knew and worked with Mahler. Barbirolli because he was the music director of the NYPO in the late 30s and early 40s when there were still players who knew and worked with Mahler.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Becca said:


> Only by those who vehemently disagree with his opinions :lol:
> 
> If you don't include Walter, Horenstein, Klemperer and Barbirolli amongst your choices, you are doing yourself a disservice as in some ways they have the closest links back to Mahler. Walter and Klemperer as they knew and worked with Mahler. Barbirolli because he was the music director of the NYPO in the late 30s and early 40s when there were still players who knew and worked with Mahler.


Of those, I've heard Barbirolli's 5th, 6th, and both his BPO and live 1960 9ths (I love his 6th and the live 9th might be my current favorite version of my favorite symphony, but I didn't care for the 5th) and Klemperer's 2nd and 7th; which I both loved.


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## flamencosketches

All of Klemperer's Mahler recordings are awesome, but the 7th is kindof insane. I think that one is totally idiosyncratic, but who knows; have any of the other old guys who knew Mahler recorded it? Maybe he really conducted it that slow.


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## Bwv 1080

For me the clarity of Mahler's counterpoint in modern orchestral recordings is key. Old muddy sound just kills these works. I like Kubilek and Barbirolli, but Boulez and Gielen are my goto recpordings


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## starthrower

I'm enjoying the Klemperer. I don't know about other old recordings but the Klempy EMI stuff sounds great. I have the Gielen set which is probably the best recorded sound I've heard. And I have a few Boulez discs which all sound very good.


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## millionrainbows

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I personally have never understood why the 7th tends to receive such a bad rap as Mahler's toughest-to-love symphony. I have loved it from the moment I first heard it. The first movement is amazing, some of the most inspired music he wrote (and really very Wagnerian). The three middle movements are extraordinary in their treatment of instrumental color. And yes, the finale seems tacked on and long-winded. But there really is something so hilariously Mahlerian in it- it's so over the top that I find it funny, almost self-deprecating in its blatancy- kind of like Mahler is making fun of his own Mahler-ness. Overall I rank it right in the middle of his symphonic ouevre; higher than the 1st, 5th, 8th, and 3rd.


Yes, it's "Mahler in drag"! Maybe this is why it upsets so many...


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## starthrower

I love 7 & 8, but I agree with Merl that No. 3 is the one Mahler symphony that seems awfully long to endure even if like all the others it contains some fabulous music. I suppose the two I've been neglecting lately are 4 & 5. I tend to listen Bernstein's recordings when I do get around to them.

A while back I admitted to Flamencosketches that I really couldn't get into Dad Lied and he assured me that Klemperer's recording would be the one to win me over. Well I have to say he was right. I received the EMI box a couple weeks ago and I gave it a listen. And that performance demonstrated what a beautiful work it is. Klemperer was a great conductor even if I don't like his Messiah. But he had a way of bringing out the details in the score so I'm hearing things I didn't hear with other performances.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> I love 7 & 8, but I agree with Merl that No. 3 is the one Mahler symphony that seems awfully long to endure even if like all the others it contains some fabulous music. I suppose the two I've been neglecting lately are 4 & 5. I tend to listen Bernstein's recordings when I do get around to them.
> 
> A while back I admitted to Flamencosketches that I really couldn't get into Dad Lied and he assured me that Klemperer's recording would be the one to win me over. Well I have to say he was right. I received the EMI box a couple weeks ago and I gave it a listen. And that performance demonstrated what a beautiful work it is. Klemperer was a great conductor even if I don't like his Messiah. But he had a way of bringing out the details in the score so I'm hearing things I didn't hear with other performances.


This is amazing to hear, my friend...! It really is a beautiful work, perhaps my favorite in all Mahler. By all means, spend as much time as necessary with the Klemperer box, but if you ever feel the need to explore another recording, there is one other that I feel is on the same level as the Klemperer/Wunderlich/Ludwig, and that is Haitink/King/Baker/RCO on Philips. It's the first Das Lied I ever heard, shortly before the Klemperer, and it's extremely good, especially for Ms. Baker in the Abschied. I have Bourdon to thank for putting me onto this great recording. 

As for Klemperer, I don't know if I would like his Messiah either, but I do like his St. Matthew Passion a lot. It's his detail-orientedness. Sometimes, this means he slows down more than most, but it's rare that I hear a recording of his and think that he actually sacrifices any momentum from the work in question by slowing down too much. Opinions may vary, of course. I know Klemperer is the bane of many a HIP-classical guy's existence.

I haven't really been listening to Mahler these past few months but my love for his music does not wane. I listened to Walter's Mahler 1 and Abbado's Mahler 6 in the past week. Both very good performances. I have to really be in a Mahler "mode" to really appreciate his music, to where all I want to hear is Mahler. Otherwise it can be difficult not to get distracted over the course of an hour and a half long symphony. But this speaks to me more than it says anything of Mahler.


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## Andrew Kenneth

Merl said:


> (...) The only Mahler symphony I still cannot bear is the 8th. I've tried and tried and tried but it does absolutely nothing for me and sounds like a load of old random caterwauling with little discernable melody but that's just a personal thing . I know some love it and that's cool but I find many heavily choral symphonies a challenge and that one a bridge too far. But who knows... Maybe one day!


I owned the Bernstein Mahler 8th (DG) cd for ages. Did nothing for me.
I only took this disc out of it's jewel case in order to listen to the adagio from the 10th symphony; which was also included in this set.

About five years ago, however, I watched the blu-ray of Gustavo Dudamel conduct Mahler 8th in Caracas and all of a sudden I became a believer.

This was also the start of a big Mahler collection for me; previously I only owned the Bernstein DG set, Giulini's Das Lied (DG) and Rattle's Bournemouth 10th (EMI)













Dudamel - Mahler 8th - 1st movement


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## Allegro Con Brio

starthrower said:


> I love 7 & 8, but I agree with Merl that No. 3 is the one Mahler symphony that seems awfully long to endure even if like all the others it contains some fabulous music. I suppose the two I've been neglecting lately are 4 & 5. I tend to listen Bernstein's recordings when I do get around to them.
> 
> A while back I admitted to Flamencosketches that I really couldn't get into Dad Lied and he assured me that Klemperer's recording would be the one to win me over. Well I have to say he was right. I received the EMI box a couple weeks ago and I gave it a listen. And that performance demonstrated what a beautiful work it is. Klemperer was a great conductor even if I don't like his Messiah. But he had a way of bringing out the details in the score so I'm hearing things I didn't hear with other performances.


No. 3 is currently my least favorite of his. I'm no fan of the 8th, but there are many sublime passages in it. No. 3 just seems to lack any true momentum or narrative like his best symphonies. It's just too big for its britches, so to speak. I've only listened straight through it once, but I remember that it took 10 minutes for any real theme to be introduced in the first movement rather than a bunch of strange, random rumbles and chirrups. The final Adagio, however, is quite wonderful; though not worth the wait to get to it IMO. During my Mahler journey I'm going to try the Bernstein/NY recording of it which many say is definitive.

As for Das Lied, I have yet to fully understand it though I do somewhat enjoy it. The only one I've heard is Klemperer. I think I'll go with the famous Walter/Ferrier or Bernstein this time around.


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## Becca

Andrew Kenneth said:


> About five years ago, however, I watched the blu-ray of Gustavo Dudamel conduct Mahler 8th in Caracas and all of a sudden I became a believer.
> 
> This was also the start of a big Mahler collection for me; previously I only owned the Bernstein DG set, Giulini's Das Lied (DG) and Rattle's Bournemouth 10th (EMI)
> 
> View attachment 129699
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dudamel - Mahler 8th - 1st movement


I 'attended' that performance ... OK it was live streamed to movie theaters and I was in one of them - the closest that I have been to a live performance of the 8th. Very impressive.


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## hammeredklavier

*Gustav Mahler (July 7, 1860 - May 18, 1911)*


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## flamencosketches

hammeredklavier said:


> *Gustav Mahler (July 7, 1860 - May 18, 1911)*


Never would have pegged you for a fan, Hammered.


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## Granate

hammeredklavier said:


> *Gustav Mahler (July 7, 1860 - May 18, 1911)*


It's no surprise the 6th is performed so scarcely. WHO states it is unhealthy to sit through a live performance of this symphony, and recommends the use of mask and one movement a week to prevail our mental health out of risk.


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## millionrainbows

I think the most obvious influence on Mahler was Richard Strauss. The fantastic orchestration, the lyrical melodies, the contrasts, the dramatic gestures, the grandiose programmatic content, the harmonic adventurousness...all shared by both.


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## Bwv 1080

millionrainbows said:


> I think the most obvious influence on Mahler was Richard Strauss. The fantastic orchestration, the lyrical melodies, the contrasts, the dramatic gestures, the grandiose programmatic content, the harmonic adventurousness...all shared by both.


But Mahler was born 4 years earlier than Strauss. Mahler studied under Bruckner at the Vienna Conservatory and was reknown conductor of Wagner


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> I think the most obvious influence on Mahler was Richard Strauss. The fantastic orchestration, the lyrical melodies, the contrasts, the dramatic gestures, the grandiose programmatic content, the harmonic adventurousness...all shared by both.


They were contemporaries, sometime friends, and likely influences upon each other. But to call Strauss's music the wellspring of Mahler's sound and style would betray an anachronistic understanding of music history.


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## millionrainbows

I guess I'm hearing the similarities, since they were contemporaries, both late Romantics. Maybe Strauss had the edge as far as compositions already out there, and since Mahler had so much conducting to do. This might have afforded him the opportunity to hear more of Strauss than vice versa.


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## MrMeatScience

There was a lot of mutual musical respect, although they didn't love all of each other's music by any means. Strauss was an important advocate for Mahler's compositions, often helping his symphonies to get programmed on new music concerts in Berlin. Mahler for his part fought to get Salome performed at the Hofoper in Vienna, but was ultimately blocked by the censors.


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## starthrower

Amazon delayed the release of the Kempe set until tomorrow so I'm still waiting to get my hands on this box. I'm much more of a Mahler fan but lately I'm becoming somewhat of a romantic music completest. Not because I love everything but I just want to listen to it all so I can discover the golden nuggets.


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## Plague

Iván Fischer introduces Mahler Symphonies:


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## Plague

I can't find his video on Symphony no.8, if there is one.


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## Barbebleu

Apparently Fischer dislikes the eighth. Ergo, no commentary. I believe he has never recorded it and has no intention of ever doing so!


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## mahlernerd

Usually, the Detroit Symphony, which is my “home orchestra,” plays one Mahler concert a year, usually playing one of his symphonies. Last year they played the fourth, and the year before I had the amazing opportunity to hear them play the fifth. Hopefully, if they are able to by next April, they will be playing his seventh with James Conlon. One of the most exciting moments for me is when I hear about the announcement for the next season’s programme, and going to see what Mahler symphony they will be performing!


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## Zhdanov

Barbebleu said:


> Apparently Fischer dislikes the eighth.


for its not quite what a symphony was to sound like, rather a cantata.


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## mbhaub

mahlernerd said:


> Usually, the Detroit Symphony, which is my "home orchestra," plays one Mahler concert a year, usually playing one of his symphonies. Last year they played the fourth, and the year before I had the amazing opportunity to hear them play the fifth. Hopefully, if they are able to by next April, they will be playing his seventh with James Conlon. One of the most exciting moments for me is when I hear about the announcement for the next season's programme, and going to see what Mahler symphony they will be performing!


Well, that's one heck of a great Home Orchestra! Over the years I collected everything Paul Paray did, and a lot of Dorati's work in Detroit as well. Brilliant sounding orchestra. Finally decided to take a trip there several years ago when Neeme Jarvi did the Schmidt 4th. Great hall, too! One of the best. (And even though it was April, lordy it was cold!) I hope Conlon is able to do the 7th and we all get back to business. As a footnote: I play bassoon in a wind quintet and we recently added a new horn player: former DSO principal Gene Wade! I'm very humbled. He retired to Scottsdale and still wants to play!


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## Gargamel

Mahler 6 never did anything else than bored me to death, and my opinion still hasn't changed concerning the first three movements. But as I heard the finale movement, it's belligerent character suprisingly connected with the current state of the world and (not that I'm a sucker for politics) democracy. There's the same kind of mindbaffling bond between banality and threat; tv-entertainment and military power: shock and awe! Surprising, as the work is 117 years old!


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## Gargamel

Are you hearing the finale guys? Most awesome thing Mahler ever did, Das Lied von der Erde is little compared to this!


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## flamencosketches

@Plague, these Fischer vids are great! He clearly understands the music well. However, it makes me sad that he doesn't get the 8th. I guess Klemperer didn't like the 5th, Walter didn't like the 6th, so it's not unprecedented for a Mahler specialist to have such a blind spot.


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## Azol

Gargamel said:


> Mahler 6 never did anything else than bored me to death, and my opinion still hasn't changed concerning the first three movements.


Andante is beautiful. And, honestly, M6 works for me the other way 'round: I'll take the first three movements over Finale any day!


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## flamencosketches

Azol said:


> Andante is beautiful. And, honestly, M6 works for me the other way 'round: I'll take the first three movements over Finale any day!


Same here, though the finale is finally beginning to click with me.


----------



## Gargamel

flamencosketches said:


> I guess Klemperer didn't like the 5th, Walter didn't like the 6th, so it's not unprecedented for a Mahler specialist to have such a blind spot.


Bernstein must have disliked the 6th, the Wiener Philharmonics plays it so fast. As if Bernstein ever plays fast!

@Azol: Which order do you recommend? There has always been a great controversy in which order the middle movements are meant to be played.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Gargamel said:


> Bernstein must have disliked the 6th, the Wiener Philharmonics plays it so fast. As if Bernstein ever plays fast!


Lenny tended to favor extreme tempi at both ends of the spectrum; the scherzo of his NY Dvorak New World is one of the fastest on record as is, of course, the finale of the (in)famous Shostakovich 5. I'm not entirely sold on the fast pace he adopted for the first movement of M6 in both his recordings, but the Vienna performance is so virtuosic, well-recorded, and cathartically intense that I don't care. That tempo makes it sound crushing, mechanistic, soulless; like industrial machines churning away. Contrast it with Barbirolli, who is equally nihilistic but in a totally different way, like a grinding, weary parody of a heroic march.


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## CnC Bartok

Azol said:


> Andante is beautiful. And, honestly, M6 works for me the other way 'round: I'll take the first three movements over Finale any day!


I'll take all four movements, thank you very much, and without fighting over the S-A/A-S order!


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## thejewk

I've listened to Mahler's 1st-8th symphonies for the first time over three days, and I might just listen to the 9th this evening. I feel bruised.


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## Manxfeeder

Gargamel said:


> There's the same kind of mindbaffling bond between banality and threat; tv-entertainment and military power: shock and awe! Surprising, as the work is 117 years old!


It's funny; I don't like listening to the 6th because it's too close to reality.


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## Ludwig van Amadeus John

All offense intended:


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## hammeredklavier

Ludwig van Amadeus John said:


> All offense intended:
> View attachment 145895


No offense intended:


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## Guest

I love his music, especially the 5th, 6th, and 9th Symphonies. I have recordings of them by Karajan, Solti, Bernstein, and Sinopoli.


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## Adagietto

After listening to his Das Lied von der Erde, I was interested in getting a Rosbaud Mahler 9th. Does anyone have an opinion on the following two recordings of the 9th. The 1954 is part of a set. The live recording from 1957 is available on a single disc.

Hans ROSBAUD	Sudwestfunk Symphonie Orchester, Baden-Baden SWR Jan.7.1954


Hans ROSBAUD	Sudwestfunk Symphonie Orchester, Baden-Baden	ARKADIA 1957 (live)

Thanks


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## Kiki

Adagietto said:


> After listening to his Das Lied von der Erde, I was interested in getting a Rosbaud Mahler 9th. Does anyone have an opinion on the following two recordings of the 9th. The 1954 is part of a set. The live recording from 1957 is available on a single disc.
> 
> Hans ROSBAUD	Sudwestfunk Symphonie Orchester, Baden-Baden SWR Jan.7.1954
> 
> Hans ROSBAUD	Sudwestfunk Symphonie Orchester, Baden-Baden	ARKADIA 1957 (live)
> 
> Thanks


I have only the 1954 studio 9th. The outer movements are relatively fast, occasionally terrifying. The Ländler has contrasting clumsiness vs frenzy. However, the Rondo Burleske is neither _allegro assai_ nor _sehr trotzig_ enough, which in my opinion is the weakest link in this performance. Nevertheless it is still a very good performance overall.

This SWR set is definitely worth getting if one in interested in Rosbaud's Mahler.


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## joen_cph

I have the Andromeda 3CD box set with Symphonies 7 (1957) + 9 (1954) + DLvDE (1955). I normally have no or few reservations as regards historical sound & often listen say to 1930s and 1940s recordings, but both the sound and even the performances here turned me off & the set is now in a pile for later sale.


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## Kiki

That's interesting to know. I feel grateful I got the SWR set instead (that includes #1(1961), #4(1959), #5(1951 Live), #6 (1961), #7(1957), #9(1954) and DLVDE(1955 Live)), which has got pretty good sound for its vintage.


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## flylooper_2885

flamencosketches said:


> I would agree. I've always preferred listening to works (or in popular music, albums) in full. I was just trying to heed the advice of several who told me to look into individual movements. I will probably just try and find a disc with just the first symphony and work my way from there. I couldnt justify getting a box yet off of one symphony that I like, which apparently is uncharacteristic of the rest :lol:


I agree that it's better to listen to a work in its entirety. The movements usualy relate to each other in some way.

For me, I read Henry Louis de La Grange's absolutely massive biography of Malher which fleshed out the chronicle of Mahler and his world in incredible detail. Almost on a daily basis. The information I carry with me as I now listen to his music (again, for me) suddenly takes on even more complexity in listening. 

This was a man who lived in the last days of the German romantic movement and his music is one bridge among many to the 20th century movement away from romanticism in classical music. I found it fascinating the Schoenberg was a great fan of Mahler in Vienna. Yet, Mahler was more or less nonplussed about Schoenberg's. He didn't understand it. Mahler was a man who believed in himself totally as a composer and conductor yet whose music was rountinely dismissed in the most vile way by the antisemitic critics both in Vienna, Berlin, and later in New York City, when he had the local symphony orchestra for a couple of seasons. (He was essentially dismissed from his job in New York when Toscanini agreed to come aboard.)

And amid all this work as a conductor, he managed to leave behind a very significant body of wonderful music: 9 or 10 symphonies (depending on how you look at certain works) and some incredible vocal music.


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## Becca

flylooper_2885 said:


> This was a man who lived in the last days of the German romantic movement and his music is one bridge among many to the 20th century movement away from romanticism in classical music. I found it fascinating the Schoenberg was a great fan of Mahler in Vienna. Yet, Mahler was more or less nonplussed about Schoenberg's. He didn't understand it. Mahler was a man who believed in himself totally as a composer and conductor yet whose music was rountinely dismissed in the most vile way by the antisemitic critics both in Vienna, Berlin, and later in New York City, when he had the local symphony orchestra for a couple of seasons.* (He was essentially dismissed from his job in New York when Toscanini agreed to come aboard.)*


Not true at all. After Mahler's death, Josef Stransky was appointed as a replacement and he conducted all the orchestra's concerts until 1920 and remained music director until 1923 when he was replaced by Willem Mengelberg. It was only in 1928 that Toscanini took over.


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## flylooper_2885

You know, I apologize!

It was the Met where all this stuff happened. Mahler came over from Vienna, having resigned from the State Opera in 1907. He conducted the 1908 Met season. He opened with _Tristan und Isolde_, one opera he was most noted for conducting in Europe. Then the Met decided to have "co-music directors" with Toscanini sharing the billing. To make matters worse, Toscanini debuted with _Tristan_, too, as if to poke his colleague in the eye. This rankled Mahler and he resigned the Met. In 1909-1910, he began as the first conductor of the New York Philharmonic (formerly the New York Symphony): He got sick in early 1911 and passed away in Europe at 51 years of age.

Too bad he didn't live as long as Richard Strauss. No telling how much additional great music he could have left us with.


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## Becca

I would gladly trade everything that R. Strauss did after 1911 plus _Elektra_ for an edited Mahler 9th, completed 10th and an 11th!


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## OCEANE

Becca said:


> I would gladly trade everything that R. Strauss did after 1911 plus _Elektra_ for an edited Mahler 9th, completed 10th and an 11th!


Couldn't imagine how great his 11th...or so on would be....


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## flylooper_2885

Becca said:


> I would gladly trade everything that R. Strauss did after 1911 plus _Elektra_ for an edited Mahler 9th, completed 10th and an 11th!


Well, Stauss did quite a lot of composing in the 20th century, some of which I have in my music collection. _Elektra_ seems to be highly regarded by muisicologists, but no matter. What's important is what it does or doesn't do for you. _Four Last Songs_ is top drawer Strauss, to me.

Mahler and Strauss we contemporaries and friends.

There's no telling where Mahler would have ended up had he lived a full life. Clearly he was headed toward atonalism but it's conjectural as to whether he would get there.


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## Neo Romanza

Becca said:


> I would gladly trade everything that R. Strauss did after 1911 plus _Elektra_ for an edited Mahler 9th, completed 10th and an 11th!


I wouldn't as, for me, Strauss wrote a lot of masterpieces after 1911: _Daphne_, _Die Frau ohne Schatten_, _Horn Concerto No. 2_, _Oboe Concerto_, _Vier letzte Lieder_, _Metamorphosen_, _Eine Alpensinfonie_, _Josephslegende_, _Duet-Concertino_, among others. I love Mahler, but I also love these works from Strauss, too.


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## Rogerx

Neo Romanza said:


> I wouldn't as, for me, Strauss wrote a lot of masterpieces after 1911: _Daphne_, _Die Frau ohne Schatten_, _Horn Concerto No. 2_, _Oboe Concerto_, _Vier letzte Lieder_, _Metamorphosen_, _Eine Alpensinfonie_, _Josephslegende_, _Duet-Concertino_, among others. I love Mahler, but I also love these works from Strauss, too.


_Well said,_ why always choose when one can have both.


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## Kreisler jr

You cannot have both and you cannot choose either because in the real world Mahler did die when he died...  
I am not a great fan of Strauss and less after 1911 but even I would be wary to bargain all post 1911 Strauss for two more completed Mahler symphonies.
While it seems obviously bogus that artists don't die before they have "completed their mission" (although it is an interesting idea and I have seen it entertained by serious historians), it is usually moot to speculate. Especially in cases of composers who didn't die very young, I do think that we usually have what they were capable of unless they were thwarted by uncommonly unfavorable circumstances.


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## Rogerx

Gustav Mahler ( 7 July 1860 – 18 May 1911) 

Source WIKI and Instagram .


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