# Will Film Music last?



## Cortision

Film scores can be seen as inconsequential by some people. Film music can be seen as, by nature, populist and commercial, and therefore lacking in long-term artistic merit. Many people would hesitate before mentioning film composers in the same sentence as proper contemporary classical composers.

However, there is another argument. Film music is not alone in being written to accompany another medium. Think of Ballet, Opera, or incidental music for the theatre, for example. Much of the music for these genres has stood the test of time. Nobody would challenge the claim of Opera to be a medium which has produced many masterpieces. Mendelssohn's music to 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' is marvellous, so is Grieg's Peer Gynt Suite, as is Tchaikovsky's ballet music. These are examples of music that have lasted, and can stand as good music even when separated from their original context.

My argument is that the best film music is also capable of being good just as music for itself, even when not accompanied by the film. There is no doubt that much drivel has been written for cinema, and we can be comforted that it will not last. However, I would not be surprised if the best film music gradually grows in respectability over the next century, so that the music will be played long after the films themselves have been forgotten.

What do people think?


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## Artemis

The topic of this thread brings to mind a fairly similar one about 18 months ago: http://www.talkclassical.com/2714-movie-soundtracks-new-classics.html

In this current thread it is suggested that some film scores are so good that they will outlive their initial purpose and continue to be well regarded by future generations. In the previous thread the contention was that the better film composers of today are tantamount to our current classical composers.

I realise that the issues are rather different but it may still be worth considering what various people said on this topic on the previous occasion. At times the issues were hotly debated. My own humble contribution (or rather the main one) to the previous thread is at post #51.

Picking up from that post I would suggest that, in response to the question posed in this thread, some film scores will probably continue to be well regarded for many years to come. However, I doubt that they will generally enter the classical music canon per se, but will simply be regarded as good music of its type for an earlier period in film history. There may be the odd exception that proves the rule.


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## david johnson

film music is not composed to last long, but some of it will make it.

dj


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## Kevin Pearson

I don't know if whole scores will be of lasting value but certainly highlights, excerpts and medleys of scores will. There are many scores that are considered masterpieces and will be studied by composers for years to come. As well as certain outstanding composers like Max Steiner, Wolfgang Korngold, Mikolas Rosza, Dimitri Tiomkin, Franz Waxman, Bernard Herrmann, Elmer Bernstein, Leonard Bernstein, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, John Barry, Henri Mancini, Ennio Morricone, Alfred Newman and many others. Of all these I especially think Korngold, Steiner and Williams will continue to be played many years from now.

BTW....Here is a link to 101 of the greatest film scores. I know these kind of lists are very subjective but I find very little fault with this list:

http://www.filmsite.org/101filmscores.html

Kevin


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## chillowack

The greatest film score composers are, in my opinion, on a par with the greatest composers of other eras: the only difference is the medium for which they compose.

What first brought this concept home to me was when I was listening to John Williams' soundtrack to _Star Wars_, and I realized the thing was profoundly brilliant: far more than just a "cool soundtrack," this work is spectacular.

He's done the same thing with movie score after movie score: created these complex, perfect, magnificent scores that have established him as a truly great composer, worthy of the highest praise.

I have no doubt that some of the more memorable movie scores will live on for centuries (if humanity lasts that long). The greatest music of all eras has always stood the test of time, and memorable film scores will be no exception.


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## Weston

We already have some examples of suites from movie score (Alexander Nevsky, for instance). I think some film scores will translate well into suites. I used to have a Bernard Hermann suite for the score to_ The Day the Earth Stood Still _which is fantastic. I'm not sure I need to hear every little bit of background music for this, so the suite was perfect.

John Williams may be the exception where the whole score works well, because as I recall he uses a lot of leitmotifs like Wagner.

I look forward to the day when we can get a movie score without the obligatory pop song at the end. Even Shore's _ Lord of the Rings _soundtracks almost finish with a pop song.


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## dmg

Artemis said:


> The topic of this thread brings to mind a fairly similar one about 18 months ago: http://www.talkclassical.com/2714-movie-soundtracks-new-classics.html


Wow, some of the condescending attitudes in that thread! 

Anyway, I think some of the music will stand the test of time, even if the films themselves do not (at least not the original tapings - we may see recreations if the screenplays survive, and as has already happened with some films). They are already performed by the greatest orchestras and in the most renowned concert halls and under direction of some of the best conductors in the world.

Anyone know how many operas were written TOTAL in the 1800s? How about symphonies? And how many of them can you name? I think it will be the same way with film scores - tens, if not hundreds of thousands will be composed, but only a select few will grace concert halls in the coming centuries.


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## Tapkaara

Of course film music will last.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Anyone know how many operas were written TOTAL in the 1800s? How about symphonies? And how many of them can you name? I think it will be the same way with film scores - tens, if not hundreds of thousands will be composed, but only a select few will grace concert halls in the coming centuries.

My thoughts exactly... and I also agree with Weston's comment that what might truly stand the test of time are suites culled from the larger whole. On one level I don't see that composing music for film should be imagined as a guarantor of aesthetic inferiority any less than composing for any other "performance"... be it a cantata, mass, play, ballet, opera, etc... certainly the vast majority of film music is commercialized crap... but then the vast majority of all art is mediocre at best. The vast majority of contemporary "art music" or "serious music" is pretentious crap. I think where film compositions do fall short is with the demand that the music be written in such a way to exactly coincide with the mood or drama of the film. Where a composer for the ballet may need to compose this or that movement with a certain mood in mind and follow the given narrative it is not as strictly dominated as film where the composer may need to composer exactly 33 seconds of lush romantic music followed by 5 seconds of a dramatic explosion of sound followed by 5 seconds of calm, etc... etc... Considering the demands of the form it is surprising that film composers are not more admired... if only for the difficulty of their work. Again... this is why I agree that suites of such composers work may be the route through which they are best remembered... not unlike the manner in which Tchaikovsky's ballets (among others) are perhaps best served by being culled or edited.


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## Cortision

StLukesguildOhio makes some great points here, particularly his point that the film medium often makes more demands on the music that say Ballet. I often wonder whether the really good film composers feel artistically restricted at times. On the other hand, the film itself may give them inspiration. I am frequently amazed at the knack John Williams has for finding exactly the right themes to capture the essence of a film, and improve the film in the process. The comments on suites are also interesting - as an example I thought of Nigel Westlake's _Antarctica_Suite, which I think may prove to be an example of what people have been saying.

Incidentally, how many film composers find the time to write outside of their normal medium? I can think of John Williams and Michael Nyman, and I'm sure there are others. Could this be another way for their film music to stand the test of time - to have written a body of music in other forms?


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## shsherm

Will film music stand the test of time? Yes.


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## Rondo

As long as film remains successful, so will film scores (for the most part). Some may disagree here, but there may come a time when [_music originally written for a film_] may overcome other forms of classical music in overall preference among listeners (of classical music). In fact, we may be there already.

A decade from now, concert halls may be performing quite a bit _more_ Williams or Zimmer scores (a venue in my neck of the woods recently performed one of Shore's works), while new performances of Beethoven and Mahler symphonies go the way of the 8-track. In some respects, a grim outlook, but we may be headed that way.


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## Lukecash12

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Anyone know how many operas were written TOTAL in the 1800s? How about symphonies? And how many of them can you name? I think it will be the same way with film scores - tens, if not hundreds of thousands will be composed, but only a select few will grace concert halls in the coming centuries.
> 
> My thoughts exactly... and I also agree with Weston's comment that what might truly stand the test of time are suites culled from the larger whole. On one level I don't see that composing music for film should be imagined as a guarantor of aesthetic inferiority any less than composing for any other "performance"... be it a cantata, mass, play, ballet, opera, etc... certainly the vast majority of film music is commercialized crap... but then the vast majority of all art is mediocre at best. The vast majority of contemporary "art music" or "serious music" is pretentious crap. I think where film compositions do fall short is with the demand that the music be written in such a way to exactly coincide with the mood or drama of the film. Where a composer for the ballet may need to compose this or that movement with a certain mood in mind and follow the given narrative it is not as strictly dominated as film where the composer may need to composer exactly 33 seconds of lush romantic music followed by 5 seconds of a dramatic explosion of sound followed by 5 seconds of calm, etc... etc... Considering the demands of the form it is surprising that film composers are not more admired... if only for the difficulty of their work. Again... this is why I agree that suites of such composers work may be the route through which they are best remembered... not unlike the manner in which Tchaikovsky's ballets (among others) are perhaps best served by being culled or edited.


One question: where is this _good_ film music you speak of? Not so sound as if I'm not game for the idea, but most everything I've heard is watered down with cliche progressions. There is no individualism that I can really detect, and it all seems to be in poor taste. It doesn't communicate anything to me, interest me, or surprise me in any way with how well orchestrated it is. Can you please refer to me _where the gravy is_, if I've been missing out on some great compositions?


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## StlukesguildOhio

One question: where is this good film music you speak of?

Toru Takemitsu's score for Akira Kurosawa's _Ran_... among other films.
Prokofiev's music for _Ivan the Terrible_
Bernard Hermann
Franz Waxmann
Erich Korngold
Ennio Morricone
Elmer Bernstein
Philip Glass- Kundun 
Wojciech Kilar

Undoubtedly others can come up with many more.


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## Rondo

Lukecash12 said:


> One question: where is this _good_ film music you speak of? Not so sound as if I'm not game for the idea, but most everything I've heard is watered down with cliche progressions. There is no individualism that I can really detect, and it all seems to be in poor taste. It doesn't communicate anything to me, interest me, or surprise me in any way with how well orchestrated it is. Can you please refer to me _where the gravy is_, if I've been missing out on some great compositions?


Well, there's _Hamlet, King Lear _ and _Alexander Nevsky_ (to name only a few). Does that help?


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## Lukecash12

Thank you. I appreciate the references and I'll be looking out for those.


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## Cortision

Good film scores?

How about -
Michael Nyman - The Piano
Nigel Westlake - Antarctica
Howard Shore - The Fellowship of the Ring. (Some may want to murder me for this last one - but I actually think its good, and I like the way he uses voices. It's not particularly challenging music perhaps, but it is evocative.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I really love John Williams' music. 
As a kid who was an absolute Star Wars nut, I owned the original trilogy soundtracks. But from my introduction to John Williams I found his other great soundtracks like
Home Alone
Jurassic Park
Indiana Jones
Hook
ET

I will admit that John Williams is very popular, but I really like his work.

Danny Elfman used to be a great composer but after Charlie And The Chocolate Factory I can't listen to his music. 

Alan Silvestri is another great composer. I really enjoyed his earlier work.

I am also a sucker for Ennio Morricone.


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## xyxablink

*hi...*

With that... regarding film music..I think they will last..
as we can see.. that movies without music were boring..
and if that happens to be musical well, that's somewhat more 
interesting to watch for...


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I live my life to a soundtrack. Every step I take, every breath, every single second I am alive I have a wonderful melody in my mind. Sometimes I will take several famous pieces from composers and mix them together in my head. My heaven would be a concert hall.


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## tahnak

Cortision said:


> My argument is that the best film music is also capable of being good just as music for itself, even when not accompanied by the film. There is no doubt that much drivel has been written for cinema, and we can be comforted that it will not last. However, I would not be surprised if the best film music gradually grows in respectability over the next century, so that the music will be played long after the films themselves have been forgotten.
> 
> What do people think?


Yes good film music will last. I still listen to Elmer Bernstein's Ten Commandments score after 53 years . Miklos Rozsa's score for Ben Hur still stands and plays well after 50 years. Bernard Herrmann's score for Citizen Kane and Hitchcock masterpieces like North by Northwest still stands and that is more than sixty years old. Scores of John Williams, Howard Shore, Maurice Jarre and Ennio Morricone will be played for another scores of years should the world last and perhaps we will hear it in the purgatory too.


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## Tapkaara

I hate to be the constant over-zealous proponent of Akira Ifukube, but Tahnak's last post on older film scores that stand up today piqued me. Ifukube's 1954 score for the original Godzilla movie is a charcoal dark, brooding score that is so atypical horror/sci-fi music for films of the day. Ifukube was a very serious composer and took the project very seriously. So, he created a score of subtle intensity and haunting tragedy as the film is really about the horrors of atomic weapons.


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## asd123

if life is going on 
then the mivie and the music will last 
that is another world of people


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## tahnak

O yes it will last. The question is whether the world will last! I heard Dimitri Tiomkin's score for Guns of navarone and it is excellent.


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## PetrB

Your argument that film music is like ballet music is more than faulty.

The only similarity is the composer in each case is constrained to the length of a scene, in the case of ballet music very real considerations of real time it takes to change the stage scenery, or for dancers to change costume enter in.

The huge difference? The Ballet score is written first, the whole of the music then choreographed after the fact of the music.

Films do not have a composer write a full-length score and then choreograph the film to the music.

Film music is entirely subservient to the scene, the length of that scene as per the final cutting of the presented film, and often too, subject to requirements dictated by the director, how much, how long, how loud, and genre, even, under this or the other scene, and written as one composer said, 'by the stopwatch.'

Film music often never stands well on its own, but if attached in memory usually prompts reminders of which scene in the movie it accompanied. How many times have you, or somebody you know, when listening to the score alone, said, "This is the scene where." Or the soundtrack reminds you that Harry Potter flew on the back of the hippogryph?

Without that association, Mr. Williams highly derivative music, a beginning to end episode around less than two minutes, is just derivative quasi classical music deftly written and deftly scored.

Unless the movie lasts, I think the score will go the way with the movie - away if there is no further interest. If the film stays in popular circulation, the score will remain in circulation.

Even the best of film scores are often episodes of extreme brief length, overall and in each segment. They require very little of the listener's attention span: they are often briefer still than the shorter pop songs on the market.

Compare the fact that the four-minutes+ Eb chord that is the opening of Wagner's Ring Cycle, and that Harry's round trip on that Hippogryph could have taken place twice while Wagner was just getting warmed up, then - that is film music, no waiting, no real development (classical expectations or otherwise.)

Unattached to the film, I think that 99% of film-score music may see the light of day once, and then be forgotten. It is the movie which gives the score any meaning and makes it interesting for people, not primarily the music.

Dated, derivative, brilliant or mediocre, the film-score will remain if the movie remains in circulation.


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## Morrelli

Yes ! I believe so. A great soundtrack is integral to a great film and on occasion a soundtrack can transcend the film it accompanies : *Somewhere in Time* - John Barry, *Plunkett and Macleane *- Craig Armstrong, *To Kill a King *- Richard G Mitchell, *Lore* - Max Richter and check out Daniel Permberton`s soundtrack for *Upstairs Downstairs*, Sublime !


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## Guest

Yes. An odd question.


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## Svelte Silhouette

I generally find it lasts til the end of the film


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## sdtom

Certainly the deceased composers that are mentioned have produced some soundtracks that will last forever. Today I'm not so sure. I believe the current crop of composers are merely writing what Stravinsky calls wallpaper or filler music. There is rarely a melody only material that will invoke an emotion. I fear that the days of leaving the theater humming the main melody of the film is behind us.
Tom


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## nightscape

John Williams certainly has a good chance given these points:

-Skilled composer who writes good music.
-His film scores can be easily programed in suite form, like a ballet.
-He has already written concert suites of many main titles/themes.
-He is generational. He has affected the last 3 generations of children in a very significant way...Star Wars --> Jurassic Park --> Harry Potter...and will continue to be an influence due to his attachment to strong, popular and influential films. 
-He has already written many concerti (violin,cello, bassoon, horn, trumpet, tuba, clarinet, flute, etc). While most of these are not likely to get a ton of exposure, they can still be programed on occasion.
-As audiences continue to demand new music, I think he is one composer orchestras may look to (Philly just programed Close Encounters, their first Williams piece on a subscription concert EVER).


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## Harrowby Hall

Of course film music won't last, I mean, it's ephemeral and populist and is only there to tell the audience what to feel ... isn't it!

Isn't it?

Ralph Vaughan Williams wrote nine superb symphonies ... and one of these, his Symphony No 7 _Sinfonia Antarctica_ is a reworking of the music he wrote for the soundtrack of _Scott of the Antarctic_ (1948).

Around the same time, Laurence Olivier was making film versions of some of Shakespeare's plays. He engaged William Walton to write music for them. Walton's scores for _Hamlet, Richard III_ and especially _Henry V_ have all found their places in the orchestral repertoire.

John Williams has been mentioned several times in this thread. His practice of producing syntheses of his scores to accompany the closing titles of films whose completion has required very large numbers of technicians and creative artists means that (what are effectively) tone poems exist with audiences ready eager for them.


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