# The Artistic Merit Of Beethoven's 9th (Symphony)?



## Harrison Clark (Jul 25, 2017)

A movement in D minor, another in D minor, a movement in Bflat major and a movement in D major. What is so good about it? none of the themes or harmonies are that impressive and the work is bloated as hell. Is it capable of expressing anything? I just don't get the unsolicited praise. Someone telling me that it is "_the greatest piece ever composed_" seems more like an attempt at ironic comedy than anything serious. Those are my thoughts, give or take


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

It's never done anything for me either tbh


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

A sarcastic jape, no doubt, aimed at the 4'33" thread and opinions within it that differ from the OP's.
Basically one big straw man fallacy.
Moving along....


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## Harrison Clark (Jul 25, 2017)

Gordontrek said:


> A sarcastic jape, no doubt, aimed at the 4'33" thread and opinions within it that differ from the OP's.
> Basically one big straw man fallacy.
> Moving along....


So you think Beethoven's 9th is a joke? 

I made this thread because I have similar feelings to what is described in the 4'33 thread


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## Timothy (Jul 19, 2017)

I do find it a bit wrong that people are quick to rush to 4'33 to spill their seed, yet this thread would get the opposite reaction. I don't dislike Beethoven but I've never found his symphonies that impressive in the symphonic genre. Maybe I'm just a snowflake but not everyone worships it right?


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2017)

Gordontrek said:


> A sarcastic jape, no doubt, aimed at the 4'33" thread and opinions within it that differ from the OP's.
> Basically one big straw man fallacy.
> Moving along....


If you will stand idly by while one man and his music is derided for dozens of pages, but will not even entertain the same treatment of another man and his music, there is an inherent prejudice there. Prejudice is not known to be a particularly good tool in the realm of logical debate. I'd advise against it. Are you that opposed to treating myself and others as you would like to be treated? Is equality, dignity, and respect truly so abhorrent?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

It must have lots of merit, given that many people consider it the greatest piece of music ever composed. Personally, I dislike it.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2017)

Harrison Clark said:


> What is so good about it?


Well for a start, it's got a movement in D minor, another in D minor, a movement in Bflat major and a movement in D major. I love D, especially minor!


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## Holden4th (Jul 14, 2017)

Well, it was the first symphony to include a choral movement. Surely in that regard it has artistic merit.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

I subscribe to Vaughan Williams' view of the 9th. He didn't like it (though he disliked Beethoven's music in general, which I certainly don't) but he considered it a great work of art. He even wrote an extended essay explaining why that was, though that's something else I'd have to leave to him.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

:tiphat:STI:tiphat:


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

nathanb said:


> If you will stand idly by while one man and his music is derided for dozens of pages, but will not even entertain the same treatment of another man and his music, there is an inherent prejudice there. Prejudice is not known to be a particularly good tool in the realm of logical debate. I'd advise against it. Are you that opposed to treating myself and others as you would like to be treated? Is equality, dignity, and respect truly so abhorrent?


Get a grip, Nathan. This message board is devoted to Art, not Politics. In the Political World, I favor Democracy and Equalty. In evaluating Art, the concepts have no place. Merely the fact that two individuals both are Composers doesn't make them equal, no more than two Professional Athletes are equal. I may admire Colin Kaepernick for his Political Stands but if I am choosing a Quaterback for my Fantasy team give me Tom Brady every time. If I am listening to music I would prefer anything that Beethoven dashed off while sitting on his chamber pot to anything that most other Composers spent their lives slaving over.
Art is not Democratic. The drawings that my 4 year old grandson left decorating our refrigerator are not the equal of Rembrandt sketches, no matter how much I may wish otherwise


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## Daniel Atkinson (Dec 31, 2016)

Triplets said:


> Get a grip, Nathan. This message board is devoted to Art, not Politics. In the Political World, I favor Democracy and Equalty. In evaluating Art, the concepts have no place. Merely the fact that two individuals both are Composers doesn't make them equal, no more than two Professional Athletes are equal. I may admire Colin Kaepernick for his Political Stands but if I am choosing a Quaterback for my Fantasy team give me Tom Brady every time. If I am listening to music I would prefer anything that Beethoven dashed off while sitting on his chamber pot to anything that most other Composers spent their lives slaving over.
> Art is not Democratic. The drawings that my 4 year old grandson left decorating our refrigerator are not the equal of Rembrandt sketches, no matter how much I may wish otherwise


And this message board is devoted to music, not religion or sports as you try and persuade

Daniel


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Triplets said:


> If I am listening to music I would prefer anything that Beethoven dashed off while sitting on his chamber pot to anything that most other Composers spent their lives slaving over.


Yes, but not everyone would: including many people who are intimately familiar with Beethoven's music. Thick skin is required, but at the some time one shouldn't have to put up with a composer they genuinely love (and Nathan, from what I can tell, is a perceptive listener) being derided for pages on end, as if one has worse taste if they prefer Cage to Beethoven


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Daniel Atkinson said:


> And this message board is devoted to music, not religion or sports as you try and persuade
> 
> Daniel


Way to miss the point. Triplets is saying that one guy getting more criticism than another guy, for something they both do, doesn't automatically indicate "prejudice" - it often happens simply because the first guy isn't as good at it as the second guy. And (s)he's right.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Lisztian said:


> Yes, but not everyone would: including many people who are intimately familiar with Beethoven's music. Thick skin is required, but at the some time one shouldn't have to put up with a composer they genuinely love (and Nathan, from what I can tell, is a perceptive listener) being derided for pages on end, as if one has worse taste if they prefer Cage to Beethoven


No-one has to to put up with it. They can leave the thread, or the forum altogether, if they're that upset by it. As long as they're not directly attacking other forum members personally, those who put up the posts in question as just as entitled to do so as others are to disagree with them.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

nathanb said:


> If you will stand idly by while one man and his music is derided for dozens of pages, but will not even entertain the same treatment of another man and his music, there is an inherent prejudice there. Prejudice is not known to be a particularly good tool in the realm of logical debate. I'd advise against it. Are you that opposed to treating myself and others as you would like to be treated? Is equality, dignity, and respect truly so abhorrent?


yaaawn....Nice try, but I'm not going to rush to someone's defense just for the sake of evening the scales. Maybe you didn't notice but I have no control over what anyone thinks and neither do you. Whether I jump in and defend or ridicule Cage or simply take the moral high ground is going to change nothing. But you're worried about equality so let's talk about that. I intend to treat this thread the same way I did the 4'33: interject something snide and snarky, then let it go. I'm not going to ridicule Beethoven or rush to his defense even if it goes for dozens of pages. So I'll "sit idly by" for both of them, and let everyone else decide for themselves if they want to defend or ridicule. Sounds equal enough for me.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Harrison Clark said:


> A movement in D minor, another in D minor, a movement in Bflat major and a movement in D major.


Why are you listing the keys of the movements, Harrison? Can you explain how this figures into your thinking?


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

I've talked about this at length with others and I'll give you one of my favorite answers from a pianist I talked with concerning the 9th. It's very long but comprehensive, brace yourselves:

"Like a great, expansive painting in which every brush stroke is just so and all of them combine to make a picture that transports the viewer from the here and now to a space of aesthetic joy, every note in Beethoven's 9th Symphony is perfect and all of them combine to make one of the most magnificent musical compositions ever conceived by the mind of a human being. The panorama experienced in just over an hour in this work is vast.

Imagine attending a performance never having heard it before. There on stage is a large symphony orchestra, four vocal soloists, and a massive chorus. Imagine your expectations seeing this assembly of sheer musical potential. Imagine your surprise when the conductor raises a baton to bring forth the simplest, quietest, open fifth (A-E) in tremolo strings in the middle of the orchestra's tonal register. The open fifth is utterly static. Harmonically, it doesn't "want" to go anywhere. It is a state of being in very simple form. One might think, "In the beginning…" The harmony still goes nowhere, but the rhythm starts to emerge with downward E-A strokes, which in turn become more complexly expressed, while the entirety of what you're hearing grows unrelentingly loader and therefore closer. And as it approaches, the harmony finally shifts from the A-E open fifth to the D-A open fifth, for the first time establishing the tonic foundation (D) and bursting out with such force that you think, now, "Let there be light!" Or at least, let there be energy!

The movement is highly energetic and turbulent, pushing you forcibly along to its end. In the second movement you would normally expect a slow relaxing contrast to the highly energized first movement, but what you get instead is a loud, romping scherzo. Only then do you get your slow movement, by the end of which, you have been engulfed in glorious music -- but what of those four soloists and that entire choir still standing there looking at you. You have not heard a peep from any of them and you have enjoyed about three-quarters of an hour of groundbreaking music… significantly longer than most other symphonies of the era.

The fourth movement opens with urgently to launch a finale that, after getting you full attention, combines some reminiscences from prior movements with a hint of the main theme to come. It is a lengthy introduction with some fits and starts, more looking back at past material alternating with ever clearer predictions of the main theme to come, and then, the first human voice heard in the symphony, the clarion call from the baritone solo, "Oh Fruende," .. "Oh, joy!!" and soon the entire chorus is involved with the soloists and the orchestra singing Schiller's Ode to Joy. What had already been big, quickly becomes vast.

Why is it beautiful?

Humans are naturally tuned in to beauty. It is not unusual to watch a sunset and be moved. To know that millions of others like us are moved even by this very sunset or by other sunsets all around the world everyday. The color and grandeur arrest us. But even in the great variety of sunsets we see, the structure of a sunset remains constant and that grounds us as humans able to understand what we are seeing and able to understand that it is immense and outside of us, but we can still take it into ourselves and be moved by it.

When we consider music, there is a new dimension to the experience. Unlike a sunset, music is made by humans and we relate to it on many levels. Sweet melodies make us want to sing. Strong rhythmic patterns with regular and repeating motifs make us want to dance. Even without the suggestion of a dance, strong rhythms at least tempt us to tap or stomp our feet. In tribal dances when the members of the tribe join in, it is a coming together of individuals but the expression of a group awareness, a celebration of many individuals joined in a common expression of their togetherness. It is generally experienced as a happy thing to do. A "beautiful" experience.

In classical music we experience some of the same elements.. melodies that make us want to sing, rhythms that make us want to move, even dance, sad passages that seem to be able to express our own sadness. And all of this assembled in structures and progressions that make sense inherently, and that help us know comfortably our place in the unraveling musical narrative. And we appreciate the balance and continuity in these musical structures. And at then end, if it was beautiful, we have the sense of having been lifted out of the everyday world and taken by other human beings (the composer, the performers) to another pleasurable state of being. That's beautiful.

But What of Beethoven's 9th in particular?

Here again is the achievement of a other humans that speak powerfully to us as humans. Here is the musical equivalent of a cathedral. It's structure is large, but balanced. It can be seen from many perspectives from far away to close from the outside, to panoramic (gazing up at the dome) to detailed and allegorical up close on the inside. A cathedral can be experienced as the story of creation to the triumph of man.

This musical parallel that we are considering does all those things. It can comfortably express to the listener the void at the beginning of creation, creation itself, struggles and contemplations as humans develop, and triumph at the finale. And it is on this same vast scale as a cathedral. We individuals are so small in its presence, and yet we swell with pride that a single human being made it and a relatively small group of human beings can bring it to life in performance.

And in the end, having traversed this most massive and detailed canvas, can you imagine a single note (a single brush stroke) that could be changed to make the whole better? No? Then you have experienced perfection. How could that not be beautiful?"

And then he dropped the mic...


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Harrison Clark said:


> A movement in D minor, another in D minor, a movement in Bflat major and a movement in D major. What is so good about it? none of the themes or harmonies are that impressive and the work is bloated as hell. Is it capable of expressing anything? I just don't get the unsolicited praise. Someone telling me that it is "_the greatest piece ever composed_" seems more like an attempt at ironic comedy than anything serious. Those are my thoughts, give or take


Cultural norms that have built up over several centuries (and set in motion long, long before Beethoven was born) have conferred major artistic merit upon it. 
You might be out of alignment with those cultural norms. No big deal.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

nathanb said:


> If you will stand idly by while one man and his music is derided for dozens of pages, but will not even entertain the same treatment of another man and his music, there is an inherent prejudice there. Prejudice is not known to be a particularly good tool in the realm of logical debate. I'd advise against it. Are you that opposed to treating myself and others as you would like to be treated? Is equality, dignity, and respect truly so abhorrent?


¿Te ha escapado el sentido del humor?


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

I love the "Ode to Joy" section, but I used to not be thrilled with the final movement as a whole, especially the solo vocal parts. Repetition and exposure to different interpretations have helped me to enjoy the symphony better.

If you struggle to enjoy the 4th movement, one of the best I've found has been Solti with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. The best overall version I've heard so far is Karajan with the Berlin Philharmonic.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Harrison Clark said:


> A movement in D minor, another in D minor, a movement in Bflat major and a movement in D major. What is so good about it? none of the themes or harmonies are that impressive and the work is bloated as hell. Is it capable of expressing anything? I just don't get the unsolicited praise. Someone telling me that it is "_the greatest piece ever composed_" seems more like an attempt at ironic comedy than anything serious. Those are my thoughts, give or take


This post reminds me of the guy who looked up at the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel and saw only paint.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, the first movement is rough hewn out of granite, and stands monumentally, chisel marks and all. The second galumphs engagingly. The third simply soars. The finale goes all over the place, but given that nobody ever tried anything like it before, it works -- like so many of Beethoven''s other experiments. Also the main theme is one of the great constructs of all time.

Is it the greatest symphony ever written? Probably not. Does it affect many people as if it were? Yup. Would the world be a poorer place without it? Undoubtedly.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Anybody has the right to express on TC that he feels that Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is the "greatest symphony ever composed".

Personally I believe Beethoven's Third, Fifth and Sixth are all finer symphonies.

Who cares what anyone else thinks? 

I won't get upset about it and I surely won't change my mind based on somebody else's opiñion.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

The Beethoven 9th is IMO the greatest symphony alongside Mahler's 9th and Bruckner's 8th.

If you simply don't like it, I can respect that.

However, too often people delve into rationalizations for why a piece is overrated, and I do not respect that. You are trying to talk people out of liking something that you don't like. It also smacks of snobbery.

Great art is often great _despite_ such rationalizations. You don't have to explain it other than recognize there is something that draws people to it emotionally.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I'm facing the 9th three times this upcoming season with three different groups. I'll play the contrabassoon part. Is it a great symphony? Yes, undeniably. Is it Beethoven's greatest? Not to me; the 3rd is. The 9ths problem is that too many people try to make it into something it isn't. If they would just play it as an original, exciting symphonic work - using Beethoven's tempos! - it just works fine. I do believe that it needs some retouching which is a sacrilege to many purists. But there are some scoring problems that Beethoven no doubt would have corrected if he could have heard it. There are some parts in the finale that are frankly unplayable (see the sextuplets in the bass and contra parts). Some of the vocal quartet writing is awful, but not much can be done about it.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2017)

Triplets said:


> Get a grip, Nathan. This message board is devoted to Art, not Politics. In the Political World, I favor Democracy and Equalty. In evaluating Art, the concepts have no place. Merely the fact that two individuals both are Composers doesn't make them equal, no more than two Professional Athletes are equal. I may admire Colin Kaepernick for his Political Stands but if I am choosing a Quaterback for my Fantasy team give me Tom Brady every time. If I am listening to music I would prefer anything that Beethoven dashed off while sitting on his chamber pot to anything that most other Composers spent their lives slaving over.
> Art is not Democratic. The drawings that my 4 year old grandson left decorating our refrigerator are not the equal of Rembrandt sketches, no matter how much I may wish otherwise





nathanb said:


> I do not attack your favorite music and simply ask that you do not attack mine. That you do not respect me enough as a human being to heed such a request is, indeed, not a crime. Just a complete disregard for manners and civility.


Indeed, no one here is bound by any sort of law or statute to not attack John Cage's music. The only reason anyone should actually not attack John Cage's music is if said person values things like kindness, empathy, respect, humility, etc. I understand that we probably have thousands of members who view said values as an antiquated and pathetic joke. I am simply deeply saddened by this.


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## Harrison Clark (Jul 25, 2017)

Fugue Meister said:


> I've talked about this at length with others and I'll give you one of my favorite answers from a pianist I talked with concerning the 9th. It's very long but comprehensive, brace yourselves:
> 
> "Like a great, expansive painting in which every brush stroke is just so and all of them combine to make a picture that transports the viewer from the here and now to a space of aesthetic joy, every note in Beethoven's 9th Symphony is perfect and all of them combine to make one of the most magnificent musical compositions ever conceived by the mind of a human being. The panorama experienced in just over an hour in this work is vast.
> 
> ...


You sound awfully sentimental but you never said anything about the music itself


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## Harrison Clark (Jul 25, 2017)

SONNET CLV said:


> This post reminds me of the guy who looked up at the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel and saw only paint.


That may make an interesting thread in community forum, it's definitely art but it looks quite ugly


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Harrison Clark said:


> A movement in D minor, another in D minor, a movement in Bflat major and a movement in D major. What is so good about it? none of the themes or harmonies are that impressive and the work is bloated as hell. Is it capable of expressing anything? I just don't get the unsolicited praise. Someone telling me that it is "_the greatest piece ever composed_" seems more like an attempt at ironic comedy than anything serious. Those are my thoughts, give or take


I am newer to this forum.

My first response, from your question, is that there is no real question here, in the sense of wanting information or an answer. Taking it at face value, let me ask you, what answer would you accept for the question, "what is so good about it?" What answer would change your mind, or at the least have you respect a difference of opinion about it.

Or take a different strategy. What pieces do you consider objectively good, and what are their qualities that make them good, and let us see whether or not B's 9th shares any of those qualities, or if not, which qualities it lacks.

Without that, an intelligent conversation about this is impossible, and answering you would be more like an attempt at ironic comedy than anything serious.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

JeffD said:


> Without that, an intelligent conversation about this is impossible, and answering you would be more like an attempt at ironic comedy than anything serious.


Hmm, why do you say 'ironic comedy'? Seems you are suggesting that it is illogically absurd or something to dislike Beethoven's 9th :lol: 
Whilst I like the first two movements, it barely comes close to the 6th or 7th symphonies. I wouldn't quite put them in my "greatest symphonies" lists either, does this make me a sarcastic liar?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Harrison Clark said:


> That may make an interesting thread in community forum, it's definitely art but it looks quite ugly


Are there any other artistic treasures of Civilization that you would like to knock down?


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

There are many reasons Beethoven's 9th is such a monumental masterpiece in the history of art. Perhaps most essential to understanding why and how would be an in depth view and recognition of its astounding and elaborate integration of "cyclic form", of which Beethoven is perhaps music history's most miraculous architect. To actually and thoroughly recognize the full panorama and scope of its integration may take dozens of listens, or may infact be unattainable no matter the number, for I can tell you that its depths seem impossibly endless even after hundreds. I don't have several hours (days?) to spend in an attempt to try and break this all down for you here, theme by theme, part by part, but I will say this: the very final climax of the last movement is a musical integration of all 4 movements at once in one final dance and climactic swoop in both instrument and voice. The opening of the symphony and its ensuing development, echoes and alludes to what follows indirectly and directly. Everything in between is deftly integrated in relation to what came before, alludes to what follows and assimilates each of the other movements in its own themes/melodies to varying turns and degrees, directly and indirectly, echoes and allusions. Even aside from this extraordinary achievement of compositional depth and dexterity, the sheer degree of impact and expressiveness and emotional scope of the work is unprecedented and visionary. It is very impressive when a composer manages to integrate cyclic form throughout the whole of a work into an impressive architecture among movements that share pretty similar orchestral colors (think Brahms, Franck, Dvorak). But to accomplish such an extraordinary feat of integration within so much orchestral contrast, varying color and emotion will seem just about impossible until it reveals itself to one in the 9th. When you combine its sheer power, expressiveness and impact with a thorough, detailed assimilation of its infinity of cyclic form, the continual rippling effect throughout and impact of the experience is so overwhelming, flabbergasting and awe-inspiring that I would not hesitate to say it is utterly life changing and would probably completely revolutionize your concept of what a work of art is capable of.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

ST4 said:


> Hmm, why do you say 'ironic comedy'? Seems you are suggesting that it is illogically absurd or something to dislike Beethoven's 9th :lol:
> Whilst I like the first two movements, it barely comes close to the 6th or 7th symphonies. I wouldn't quite put them in my "greatest symphonies" lists either, does this make me a sarcastic liar?


I meant something similar to the original poster, who said: 


> Someone telling me that it is "the greatest piece ever composed" seems more like an attempt at ironic comedy than anything serious.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nathanb said:


> Indeed, no one here is bound by any sort of law or statute to not attack John Cage's music. The only reason anyone should actually not attack John Cage's music is if said person values things like kindness, empathy, respect, humility, etc. I understand that we probably have thousands of members who view said values as an antiquated and pathetic joke. I am simply deeply saddened by this.


I wonder just what it means to "attack" music. I don't normally regard music with hostility, even if I don't like it. I guess some people do. I will criticize music if I think there's something actually poor about it (I'm murder on the pop crap in supermarkets), or make a joke about it if that seems more entertaining. Are these things "attacks," or would I have to use particularly offensive words, or target someone I know would be easily offended? Are 4'33" jokes attacks on Cage's music, or on people who like it? How about opinions that 4'33" should not be considered music?

I think people are often accused of "attacking" music (or other things) when they're just saying they don't think it's good, or that it sounds bad or pointless to them. I usually ignore people who just express dislike, unless they're willing to explain what it is about the music they dislike, in which case I may challenge their perceptions. I may also challenge what I think is a subjective judgment when it's stated as an objective truth.

I cannot remember ever feeling hurt or offended by anyone's opinion of any music, not even by a comparison of Beethoven to a used car salesman (though I'll gladly work to ensure the immortality of that howler). On the other hand, the assertion that lovers of Wagner are members of a cult was certainly not one to shrug off, but that wasn't a comment on music but on other people's tastes; it's an insult, and not acceptable.

I'm quite secure in my own tastes and judgments, and I'm willing to let others carry on as they will. This thread impresses me as a mildly amusing opportunity for mice to squeak at a lion. I'm not dissing mice, of course. They're cute, and I hate having to set traps for them.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I wonder just what it means to "attack" music. I don't normally regard music with hostility, even if I don't like it. I guess some people do. I will criticize music if I think there's something actually poor about it (I'm murder on the pop crap in supermarkets), or make a joke about it if that seems more entertaining. Are these things "attacks," or would I have to use particularly offensive words, or target someone I know would be easily offended? Are 4'33" jokes attacks on Cage's music, or on people who like it? How about opinions that 4'33" should not be considered music?
> 
> I think people are often accused of "attacking" music (or other things) when they're just saying they don't think it's good, or that it sounds bad or pointless to them. I usually ignore people who just express dislike, unless they're willing to explain what it is about the music they dislike, in which case I may challenge their perceptions. I may also challenge what I think is a subjective judgment when it's stated as an objective truth.
> 
> ...


Your stance is reasonable. I would say, though, that perhaps your music is a little easier to be secure in, considering the general lack of social stigma for earlier classical music. I could see talking about Wagner as much as you do as risky business, though. Would you reckon it's as difficult and emotionally taxing as trying to be that one guy that tries to stand between insults and John Cage?


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

nathanb said:


> If you will stand idly by while one man and his music is derided for dozens of pages, but will not even entertain the same treatment of another man and his music, there is an inherent prejudice there.


Or perhaps a difference in quality? Or perceived quality. Or folks have a preference for what ever reason.

I don't treat all music the same. And some music (appears to me to be) so obviously better than other music that it would sound foolish to seriously treating them as comparable, much less equally deserving of serious listening or thought.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2017)

At the end of the day, whether everyone's justifications for their posts are entirely logical or just born of pure hate, I think it's safe to say that people who consider John Cage to be one of the greatest composers out there.... are simply not welcome on TalkClassical.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

JeffD said:


> Or perhaps a difference in quality? Or perceived quality. Or folks have a preference for what ever reason.
> 
> I don't treat all music the same. And some music (appears to me to be) so obviously better than other music that it would sound foolish to seriously treating them as comparable, much less equally deserving of serious listening or thought.


I disagree with you completely.

(but I'm not saying I like everything I hear, no)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nathanb said:


> Your stance is reasonable. I would say, though, that perhaps your music is a little easier to be secure in, considering the general lack of social stigma for earlier classical music. I could see talking about Wagner as much as you do as risky business, though. Would you reckon it's as difficult and emotionally taxing as trying to be that one guy that tries to stand between insults and John Cage?


I'll grant that Beethoven comes in for less negative press than Cage or Schoenberg. I'd suggest that there are more reasons for that than the fact that Beethoven's been dead longer, but I don't want to get into artistic debates here. I don't think anyone can reasonably be surprised by it, though, and it should be accepted, wearily, as a fact of life. Yes, I do get tired at times of hearing about Hitler and how there are Jewish stereotypes in the _Ring_ and what a blighter Wagner was, and I'm pleased that that stuff comes up less frequently now that certain posters seem to have run out of gas (fingers crossed). I don't get a lot of help in those situations, since most sensible people run from such discussions as fast as their little feet will carry them. I have the impression that Cage has more defenders on TC than Wagner, or at least more who are willing to speak up. Whatever the case, there are no safe spaces, and won't be till every topic gets its own subforum and police force.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I wonder why some people feel they have to "defend" composers. After all most of the composers involved are long dead, be they Cage or Beethoven. What these people are really defending are their own tastes, nothing else; John Cage certainly doesn't care! And for that matter, why bother to defend your own tastes? Do they really matter to anybody but yourself?

Just don't dis Ludwig, that's all.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Harrison Clark said:


> That may make an interesting thread in community forum, it's definitely art but it looks quite ugly


Of course, the creation of great ugliness can also be profound art, when the ugliness is beautiful. I think musically of Penderecki's _Threnody_, a work of utter ugliness which captures the essence of the Hiroshima bombing, certainly no beautiful event in human history. Penderecki seems to suggest that the musical vocabulary of Mozart/Beethoven/Brahms/Tchaikovsky is no longer valid in our nuclear world. So he creates a new musical language to speak of the horror. His art work is difficult to listen to, but it is beautiful in its depiction of the ugliness of war.

I think graphically of the creature in the Alien movie. The alien is a monstrosity of ugliness. Yet, this creature was designed and fabricated by a highly talented artist who utilized his skills to create a beautifully ugly alien. It is perhaps no less artistic than Michelangelo's _David_, and no less beautiful in its artistry.

Those who suggest that "art is beautiful" and think beautiful here only means "pretty" or something akin to that are simply ignorant of art. Some of the most powerful art works in our world are not "pretty". But they are moving.

Great art tends to shock, and often the art we today consider the most beautiful (in a "pretty" way) was once denigrated as ugly or worthless or the work of a madman! Weren't there folks who wished to paint over Michelangelo's altar wall frescos? Didn't some assess Beethoven as mad? Weren't many repulsed by Goya's tragic art?

Sophocles's _Oedipus the King _remains one of the great human achievements in art, but it is not a "pretty" play, dealing with its subjects of incest and parricide. When the blinded King stumbles out of the great palace doors at the end of the play, there can only be a feeling of repulsion. Indeed, the Chorus and the Messenger find the sight unbearable and must look away. But there are few works of art which remain so powerfully beautiful as the _Oedipus_. It's definitely art but it looks quite ugly. And I, for one, am glad for this.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Merit of the 9th? Just listen to the first movement's thunder. Here we have one of the finest examples of where everything is at the service of the emotional impact including form. Still one of the most uncompromising works ever. The music scene was never the same since. Liking it is a matter of taste, but there is no denying the originality and breadth of the writing and the arrangements.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Harrison Clark said:


> That may make an interesting thread in community forum, it's definitely art but it looks quite ugly


Wow.
... ... ... ... ...


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

AfterHours said:


> There are many reasons Beethoven's 9th is such a monumental masterpiece in the history of art. Perhaps most essential to understanding why and how would be an in depth view and recognition of its astounding and elaborate integration of "cyclic form", of which Beethoven is perhaps music history's most miraculous architect. To actually and thoroughly recognize the full panorama and scope of its integration may take dozens of listens, or may infact be unattainable no matter the number, for I can tell you that its depths seem impossibly endless even after hundreds. I don't have several hours (days?) to spend in an attempt to try and break this all down for you here, theme by theme, part by part, but I will say this: the very final climax of the last movement is a musical integration of all 4 movements at once in one final dance and climactic swoop in both instrument and voice. The opening of the symphony and its ensuing development, echoes and alludes to what follows indirectly and directly. Everything in between is deftly integrated in relation to what came before, alludes to what follows and assimilates each of the other movements in its own themes/melodies to varying turns and degrees, directly and indirectly, echoes and allusions. Even aside from this extraordinary achievement of compositional depth and dexterity, the sheer degree of impact and expressiveness and emotional scope of the work is unprecedented and visionary. It is very impressive when a composer manages to integrate cyclic form throughout the whole of a work into an impressive architecture among movements that share pretty similar orchestral colors (think Brahms, Franck, Dvorak). But to accomplish such an extraordinary feat of integration within so much orchestral contrast, varying color and emotion will seem just about impossible until it reveals itself to one in the 9th. When you combine its sheer power, expressiveness and impact with a thorough, detailed assimilation of its infinity of cyclic form, the continual rippling effect throughout and impact of the experience is so overwhelming, flabbergasting and awe-inspiring that I would not hesitate to say it is utterly life changing and would probably completely revolutionize your concept of what a work of art is capable of.


Hmmm. The finale's review and rejection of earlier themes before settling on the Ode to Joy is a clever conceit by which to smooth what was at the time of the premiere a shocking transition from instrumental to choral music. This transition, which was the work's most salient feature to contemporary listeners, is why the critic Eduard Hanslick described the work as a statue in white marble with a green marble head. In any case, it is far from the most subtle of Beethoven's essays in cyclic structure. The Appassionata, the Firth Symphony, and the Sonata op. 110 - I am likely forgetting others - are all more convincingly and thoroughly unified.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Ode To Joy is comedy music to my ears, but not in a good way


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Fine I'll weigh in on it:

1st movement - Really dramatic and forceful, development section is especially impressive 
2nd movement - Really groovy, disjointed and fun, a sense of darkness there but with a dance rhythm? 
3rd movement - Out of place, just dull and uninteresting for an adagio to me. Feels like the kind of music you hear in fragrance commercials and so forth
4th movement - Charlie Chaplin, Cringe montages and forced unfunny comedy, which is a shame because the first two minutes of this movement are gold!

The first half is great but I fail to enjoy it beyond that :tiphat:

(now I'm going to hell)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> Hmmm. The finale's review and rejection of earlier themes before settling on the Ode to Joy is a clever conceit by which to smooth what was at the time of the premiere a shocking transition from instrumental to choral music. This transition, which was the work's most salient feature to contemporary listeners, is why the critic Eduard Hanslick described the work as a statue in white marble with a green marble head.


I think Hanslick was right. I hear that transition as literature, not music. But Raff did the same thing in one of his symphonies (I forget which) and his effort just showed how much better Beethoven was. We may disagree with what Beethoven did, but we can't fault the way he did it!


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Harrison Clark said:


> That may make an interesting thread in community forum, it's definitely art but it looks quite ugly


Try harder. That one was too obvious.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> Hmmm. The finale's review and rejection of earlier themes before settling on the Ode to Joy is a clever conceit by which to smooth what was at the time of the premiere a shocking transition from instrumental to choral music. This transition, which was the work's most salient feature to contemporary listeners, is why the critic Eduard Hanslick described the work as a statue in white marble with a green marble head. In any case, it is far from the most subtle of Beethoven's essays in cyclic structure. The Appassionata, the Firth Symphony, and the Sonata op. 110 - I am likely forgetting others - are all more convincingly and thoroughly unified.


Those you list are masterpieces of cyclic form indeed (especially the 5th), so I have no qualms with you pointing them out as such, but I disagree that they are comparable to how thoroughly the 9th accomplishes this (the 5th accomplishes a similar percentage versus its structure but the 9th takes on way more content and more variance of content). That final movement transition is the least of what I'm referring to, but I also don't have the time right now that it would take to go back through the work and illustrate my point in more detail, so we'll just have to agree to disagree for the time being.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Harrison Clark said:


> You sound awfully sentimental but you never said anything about the music itself


There isn't a trace of sentimentality to the sentence I contributed to the enormous post. My words were an introduction to a brilliant response someone not apart of this forum, I doubt I could say it any better and I doubt you read it at this point.

It was my understanding you wanted some solid reasons for why the 9th is a masterpiece but from this response you give it now seems as though your primary motivation is to counter the thread "The artistic merit of 4'33". There were plenty of great points for you to pick up on an start a dialogue with (not just in my post but in others' as well) but you don't use the opportunity at all to engage. The only post you make after this is just another tell of what your true aim is, to be provocative.

Gordontrek had it right in post #3, if this wasn't true there would be an earnest discourse happening but alas it was not to be. I would be wasting my time to give you my personal opinions about the 9th


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> Hmmm. The finale's review and rejection of earlier themes before settling on the Ode to Joy is a clever conceit by which to smooth what was at the time of the premiere a shocking transition from instrumental to choral music. This transition, which was the work's most salient feature to contemporary listeners, is why the critic Eduard Hanslick described the work as a statue in white marble with a green marble head. In any case, it is far from the most subtle of Beethoven's essays in cyclic structure. The Appassionata, the Firth Symphony, and the Sonata op. 110 - I am likely forgetting others - are all *more convincingly and thoroughly unified*.


I wonder whether that matters? I'm assuming it matters to you in your assessment of its 'artistic merit', but I wonder how many of those who might cite it as a 'great' symphony would share your analysis.

Trying to think hard about what I like and why is...hard. In fact, now I come to think about all the symphonies I like, it's difficult for me to get beyond:


I like the melodies
I like the way the melodies get repeated, developed etc
I like the mood and the textures created by the key, the orchestrations, the rhythms
I like the energy of three out of the four/five movements

I can't think of much more than that. Since, for me, a symphony is not a whole, but a succession of linked parts, I might even go so far as to say that I like the melodies of each movement, but cannot comprehend it as a unified and integrated whole - and I would say the same about his 5th and Sibelius' 5th and Mahler's 5th...

Inexperienced ears, I guess.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

ST4 said:


> Ode To Joy is comedy music to my ears, but not in a good way


Comic in a good way or bad way often depends on whether or not one has understood the comedy, and that in turn depends on understanding and having the text in mind while listening. The tune is essentially a drinking song, commonplace and universal, the words are in a high literary tone. The contrast is important and intentional. The integration of high and low culture this implies goes perfectly with the overall point of the movement. You just aren't getting into the spirit of it! Imagine yourself drunk and flushed with joy, lifting a glass with a crowd of equally enthusiastic strangers and adding your voice to the song. Or you could stand in the doorway and watch the proceedings with a sneer - and go home sober and feeling empty and full of regret. Come on, drink with us! Sing with us! You know you want to!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I think Hanslick was right. I hear that transition as literature, not music. But Raff did the same thing in one of his symphonies (I forget which) and his effort just showed how much better Beethoven was. We may disagree with what Beethoven did, but we can't fault the way he did it!


And MacLeod too:

I'm not faulting it or disagreeing with what Beethoven did. I think it's brilliant. But for me it isn't as satisfying as the best of his purely instrumental works. I cited the Hanslick just to put things in perspective: to suggest that the problem Beethoven solved was a difficult one and even now it raises questions.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

As with the other Beethoven symphonies, it's in the big bow-wow strain, which isn't really me, but I can't help but be moved at the time of listening. The mixture of song and music means that it's not my favourite - I'm trite enough to love the Fifth most. Sorry!

The Big Three - Bach, Mozart, Beethoven - are 'liked' in that order by me, and yet I have to say that Beethoven often stirs me most. I can't think his stature, or his achievement, with the Ninth or anything else, are in any doubt. It's just a matter of taste.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

My favourite is still the 7th. I like the 9th but find the whole thing a bit disjointed. The 7th (and 6th to a lesser degree) have a flow to them that is more natural and organic. Strangely, 'Ode to Joy' has always felt, to me, bolted-on to the other movements. Just a personal perspective. Plus the 7th had all the best 'choons'.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I would surmise that contemporaries of Beethoven must have found the Ninth Symphony quite a disappointment after 5, 6 and 7.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

hpowders said:


> I would surmise that contemporaries of Beethoven must have found the Ninth Symphony quite a disappointment after 5, 6 and 7.


I read that they all loved it, apart from Verdi and his associates who (decades later) trashed the vocal writing (ooohhh, catty!).


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

hpowders said:


> I would surmise that contemporaries of Beethoven must have found the Ninth Symphony quite a disappointment after 5, 6 and 7.


https://bnelsonmusic.wordpress.com/2012/03/19/the-critics-vs-beethoven/


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

ST4 said:


> I disagree with you completely.
> 
> (but I'm not saying I like everything I hear, no)




I knew there was someone...


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

My pet bird had completely democratic tastes in music. He liked Respighi, he liked the etudes I played on mandolin, he liked when I clipped my nails, he liked the noise the clothes dryer made.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I would surmise that contemporaries of Beethoven must have found the Ninth Symphony quite a disappointment after 5, 6 and 7.


Berlioz had something to say about contemporary reactions to the 9th Symphony in an essay:
------------------------------------------------------
One day I was walking out of the Conservatoire with three or four dilettanti after a performance of the Choral symphony.

- How do you find this work? one of them asked me.

- Immense! magnificent! overwhelming!

- That is strange, I was bored stiff. And what about you? he added, turning to an Italian…

- Well, I find this unintelligible, or rather intolerable, there is no melody… But here are some papers talking about it, and let us see what they say:

- Beethoven's Choral symphony is the pinnacle of modern music; art has yet to produce anything comparable for the nobility of its style, the grandeur of the design and the finish of the details.

(Another paper) - Beethoven's Choral symphony is a monstrosity.

(Another paper) - This work is not completely barren of ideas, but they are poorly presented and the sum total is incoherent and devoid of charm.

(Another paper) - Beethoven's Choral symphony has some wonderful passages, but the composer was obviously short of inspiration. As his exhausted imagination let him down he had to devote his energies, sometimes to good effect, to making up through craftsmanship what he was lacking in inspiration. The few themes found in the work are superbly treated and set out in a perfectly clear and logical sequence. In short, it is a very interesting work by a tired genius.

Where is the truth, and where is the error? Everywhere and nowhere. Everybody is right. What to someone seems beautiful is not so for someone else, simply because one person was moved and the other remained indifferent, and the former experienced profound delight while the latter acute boredom. What can be done about this?… nothing… but it is dreadful; I would rather be mad and believe in absolute beauty.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Perhaps in Beethoven's 9th he understood that the sentiments expressed within are somehow universal, despite the redicule of the critics, and he was able to express something of the transcendental power of those human longings on behalf of the Brotherhood of Man, no matter how flawed this work may appear under close scrutiny by those who have criticised not only its music but its words. Did he fail or has humanity failed to live up to its potentials for which he had hopes? Who can answer such a question except the individual!

The composer worked on this symphony for years, and the poem that Schiller wrote in 1785 had influenced Beethoven's generation and been in the back of his mind for years to incorporate somewhere.

I would say the 9th was Beethoven's biggest statement and larger in its joyous sentiments than anything created by any other composer during the 19th Century, with perhaps the exception being Wagner. But then Wagner's music - epic, which follows the struggles of gods, heroes and a number of mythical creatures, perhaps more admired than beloved -- seems to have less universal appeal than that of Beethoven's 9th, so readily understood and embraced around the world in virtually every culture, performed there, even if some still remain unimpressed by the 4th movement or the work as a whole. 

Verdi would have loved to rewrite the vocal parts, but the situation was that he never came up with the original idea for the symphony in the first place -- it was never his to touch -- and perhaps the work's apparent flaws somehow add to its universal appeal and is part of what makes it so enduringly powerful and human. 

Lark ♬


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Larkenfield said:


> ...seems to have less universal appeal than that of Beethoven's 9th, so readily understood and embraced around the world in virtually every culture, performed there, even if some still remain unimpressed by the 4th movement or the work as a whole.


Of course in terms of worldwide appeal, it is precisely the fourth movement that is celebrated!


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