# American Musical History: Historicus Interruptus



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

American 'classical' music was, at first, a pale relection of European models, since everything 'good' came from Europe and its tradition. This was represented by composers such as William Billings, Anthony Philip Heinrich, and Louis Moreau Gottschalk (more a performer than composer).

Later, we had Charles Ives, Charles Tomlinson Griffes, Carl Ruggles, Henry Cowell, and John Cage, all "rugged individualists."

Composers worked hard to establish an 'American style,' like Roy Harris, Aaron Copland, William Schuman, Virgil Thomson, and Lou Harrison.


What links these latter composers is a sense of freedom from the German tradition. The influence of German culture on America, heavy in the late 19th century, was eroded by WWI, and Copland and Thomson turned to France and Nadia Boulanger for guidance.

Patriotism and the New Deal created a strong desire to create a strong "Americanism" in music, a kind of nationalism. This 'populism' of Roy Harris and others seemed naive and simplistic to some.

But serialism, coming over from Europe in the 1930's in the form or Ernst Krenek, Stephan Wolpe and many other refugees from Germany, was really what impeded what might have developed into a populist American music. Babbitt jumped on the serial bandwagon at Princeton, and Sessions at Yale solidified a new academic serial institution. Krenek has said that he saw serialism as being in opposition to Nazi Germany, as it was declared 'degenerate,' so his intent was noble.

Yet, even with serialism's opposition to Nazi ideology, it created its own "totalitarianism" of ideology. Out of Babbitt's influence came Charles Wourinen and Donald Martino and other new generation serialists, whiole younger composers like Harbison and Corigliano have gone the other direction, to a cross-breeding of modernism and Americana.

What do you think? Was the "serial invasion" in the 1930-40s from Europe a bad thing? was a "true American art music" lost in the process?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> What do you think? Was the "serial invasion" in the 1930-40s from Europe a bad thing? was a "true American art music" lost in the process?


I don't think the serial invasion was a bad thing and I don't think a "true American art music" was lost in anyway. If you think of Germany's influence on art music through the centuries it was based largely on just a handful of composers. There are already quite a few established excellent American composers (some of which you mentioned) in a relatively small amount of time in comparison to the course of which this tradition developed in Germany. I think a composer like Ives is undoubtedly a giant in classical, and consider his music "true American art music". However, there are many other excellent American composers within the classical tradition that have also contributed and many of which are continuing to keep this "true American art music" alive. I suspect this tradition will continue on indefinitely into the foreseeable future. Whether or not this music is completely American (in terms of not being influenced by outside sources) I think is beside the point, as German art music (or even European art music in general) has also always been influenced by outside sources.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

*Original post deleted*

Think I'll just listen to some of the composers mentioned by the OP, for the present.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I think I have 117 deleted posts. They seem to get the most "likes".


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Idk about Lou Harrison, if anything he was more facinated by South East Asian music than developing "American" music (or maybe I'm wrong, I'm not completely familiar with his work). Otherwise, I don't think European serialism was detrimental to American music. America became a melting pot by the 20th century, so different musical influences coming together created a unique American style. What constitutes "Americanness" in music? Is it enough that a composer is simply born here? Probably not, since we're bringing up early American composers that were copying the German music tradition thanks to German immigrants teaching the public that German music was best (Why are Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven considered the best of the best? As opposed to great French or Russian composers?). I'd say populists like Copland represented one era of American music, Serialists represented another, and Minimalists represented a third wave. Interesting thread.


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## Whistler Fred (Feb 6, 2014)

I’ll start by saying that I wouldn’t include William Billings in the list of those who simply imitated European models. In his best music he was able to combine European and early American folk influences to create something original, if small scale. 

That caveat aside, I think serialism might have been an interruption in the Americana that was popularized by Copland and others. But then by the fifties, in the age of the cold war, McCarthyism, and the threat of the atom bomb, it would have been hard to continue writing music with the same type of optimism and, yes, naivety, that was a large part of the pre-war “American style.”

Even so, there were some composers, like William Bolcom and William Albright, who hadn’t totally abandoned a more American style of art. Both helped revive that uniquely American genre of the Rag, and Bolcom in particular wasn’t averse to folk and even pop music in many of his works. And, as you point out, a later generation of composers have found, and are finding, ways to combine modernism with Americana.

So was the serial invasion a good thing? Maybe or maybe not, but it might have been a necessary thing, a musical reboot from which an American music could re-emerge, less naïve and more saddened and wizened, but still alive.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

It seems me there was an American style of music in the the '30s and '40s which sounded American and appealed to Americans. The serialists were somewhat of an interruption, but they were instrumental in producing a new group of composers who were reacting to the dead-end limits of serialism, and another form of music arose which was uniquely American and appealed to Americans, whether you call it minimalism or process music. 

I know there are sub-genres, like John Cage/Morton Feldman, who are uniquely American but not populist, and neo-romantics like John Corigliano, who are populist but hearken back to the European tradition. But if you're thinking of populist classical American music, that's what makes sense to me.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I think the period you mention, as well as anything since then up to now, is a little late for wishing or hoping for 'an American Art Music' which is distinctly American. That pseudo folksy sound ala Virgil Thompson, Copland and others was synthetic, i.e. pentatonic folk tunes, quartal harmony (which became associated with 'open' spaces and our geography. I mean, thinking that may have stayed the direction of music if it were not for the trend of serialism is somewhat akin to wishing for an American Nationalist school of music, but that is soooo out of synch with the mid to late 1800's when that was the trend it is hard to imagine a 'modern' nation taking that step so far backward.

I think one trait of a good deal of American music is along the lines of the comment Morton Feldman made about a big difference of approach between contemporary English and American musics, that English music is more literary, American music more painterly. Whether it is serialism or another technique, I think this tends to still be a trait of a lot of American contemporary classical -- while one could argue the more painterly approach is also a bit 'French' and go back to putting an onus on that credited to so many of American composers falling under the French influence of Boulanger, who was, ironically, Russian before her family immigrated to France


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

PetrB said:


> while one could argue the more painterly approach is also a bit 'French' and go back to putting an onus on that credited to so many of American composers falling under the French influence of Boulanger, who was, ironically, Russian before her family immigrated to France


...and lets face it, those French "painterly" composers were quite exotic and took their inspiration from all over the place. If the Americans were stealing from the French, the French were stealing from the Orientals, the Spanish, the Apaches - even the Americans.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

tdc said:


> ...and lets face it, those French "painterly" composers were quite exotic and took their inspiration from all over the place. If the Americans were stealing from the French, the French were stealing from the Orientals, the Spanish, the Apaches - even the Americans.


That painterly approach I hear in John Adams, Morton Feldman, Jennifer Higdon, and many another American composer, while those who are less painterly tend to be more formalist, or process oriented (minimalism in one of its variants) strictly serial, etc.

About the elements mentioned in the above quote: so many of those elements were in the general ether, I would say it is just impossible to call any of that "stealing." It is only when you get to those who _will_ try to contain art, or any idea(s) for that matter, to sit within a dotted line boundary on a map -- as associated with a flag.

The "height of English Baroque" is due to an immigrant German composer, who trained in Germany and Italy, with strong influences of the Italian style, i.e. the fact he immigrated, became a (grateful) citizen, and composed vocal and choral works in English has no connection to anything 'natively English style' in the music itself.

"Height of French Baroque" is partially attributable to an immigrant Italian composer who got hired by the French King.

Very American Steve Reich studied under French composer Darius Milhaud, and looked into the aesthetic and rhythmic traits of African and Indonesian musics.

.... and so it goes.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Two american composer composer who seem to be distinctlively american sounding to me are Ben Johnston and Ralph Shapey.


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## Guest (May 23, 2014)

Wow, two obsessions in one thread, serialism and nationalism.

Only one of them a good idea, and it not by any means the only idea.

And such carefully selected items for the "history." Wow. Though, be fair, cherries are in season, it's true.

Some American music, including the US.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

All of those composers, from Copland to Babbitt, make the "american style" 

I guess you can't expect uniformity from a country as big and diverse as the US.

What I think characterizes the american style is not the "americana" (Ugh...) or serialism or whatever, but a philosophical attitude towards musical composition. Related mainly to certain "to the point" attitude, "we must find our own way", "self confidence", also certain appeal to "sincerity of thought and expression". The Carter/Babbitt vs Glass/Reich (also Adams if you want; but in craft I equate Adams to Carter or Babbitt, while I think Glass/Reich are more crude) battle comes to mind, the highbrow/uptown vs lowbrow/downtown battle of approaches, as said by Reich. I think both sides were being passionately consequent with this philosophy I mentioned, both sides thought they had the "right approach". Of course, what happened is that the real clash was because of the cultural diversity of the country. That's my outsider perception at least.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> American 'classical' music was, at first, a pale relection of European models, since everything 'good' came from Europe and its tradition. This was represented by composers such as William Billings, Anthony Philip Heinrich, and Louis Moreau Gottschalk (more a performer than composer).
> 
> Later, we had Charles Ives, Charles Tomlinson Griffes, Carl Ruggles, Henry Cowell, and John Cage, all "rugged individualists."
> 
> ...


I think strange you consider Griffes a more individual composer than Gottschalk, I really like certain pieces of Griffes but I think Gottschalk was much more original than him. Anyway it seems that you don't consider jazz "true american art music", and you're forgetting also that the United States produced a lot of "mavericks" during the century, Gottschalk, Joplin, Gershwin, Ives, Cowell, Lou Harrison, Antheil, Colin McPhee, John Cage, Harry Partch, Wendy Carlos, Conlon Nancarrow, the minimalists, Alec Wilder, jazz composers like Monk, Hill, Russell, Shorter, Nichols, Dolphy and others. Even neoclassical musicians have done original things like Arthur Berger. I could mention even certain rock musicians. All those composers forged their own path, I guess that the american spirit lies exactly in that individualism.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Serialism is really a trend which 'does away' with nationalism, making all who compose under its system more 'ideologists' than representatives of any particular nationality. Or am I wrong? Could there have been a 'folksy, naive' Americana serialism?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I think strange you consider Griffes a more individual composer than Gottschalk, I really like certain pieces of Griffes but I think Gottschalk was much more original than him. Anyway it seems that you don't consider jazz "true american art music", and you're forgetting also that the United States produced a lot of "mavericks" during the century, Gottschalk, Joplin, Gershwin, Ives, Cowell, Lou Harrison, Antheil, Colin McPhee, John Cage, Harry Partch, Wendy Carlos, Conlon Nancarrow, the minimalists, Alec Wilder, jazz composers like Monk, Hill, Russell, Shorter, Nichols, Dolphy and others. Even neoclassical musicians have done original things like Arthur Berger. I could mention even certain rock musicians. All those composers forged their own path, I guess that the american spirit lies exactly in that individualism.


That's what I was saying; I don't disagree. The American voice was beginning to be forged by these sorts of rugged individualists until we were deluged by European serialists. Then Milton Babbitt took off with that. Do we consider Babbitt to be "American" more than serialist, bearing in mind that it was Babbitt's contribution to serial theory (terms like 'pitch set') that he will be remembered for more than his compositions? Now there's one of the caveats of ideological serialism.

________________________

I think that cage and Boulez, and even Harrison, were trying to create a music which transcended nationalism, so is their inclusion even relevant? Read the notes to this CD for more info:


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Serialism is really a trend which 'does away' with nationalism, making all who compose under its system more 'ideologists' than representatives of any particular nationality. Or am I wrong? Could there have been a 'folksy, naive' Americana serialism?


It's true that at some moment the serialists said they were trying to establish some kind of 'international style' and to 'delete the composer's intention from the score', etc. But I think that's a rather extreme idea, it's impossible to do that. In fact, quite the opposite. And Boulez acknowledged this later (Boulez's views are actually quite broad and tempered; when he was young, he was impulsive, he was obsessed with the ideas he was working with at the moment, and that's why at that time he expressed some very extreme views; but those views are being taken out of context if we try to take them as absolute statements, considering that for the next piece he usually changed them! lol)

In fact, if you ask me, I find french serialism to be rather different to Babbitt's. The french is tipically french, i.e., affected, extreme attention to the aesthetic of gestures, etc., while I find Babbitt more american, i.e., pragmatic, to the point, 'what you see is what you get'. It's similar to the teutonic attitude, but in a more 'plain' way. Also, it's not an antagonism, since it's well known that there's some french influence in the american style, as mentioned before in this thread.

Fortunately, not 'folksy, naive' Americana serialism, but yes to jazzy serialism!






The differences in gesture when compared to this are evident.


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## Cantabile (May 24, 2014)

Many years ago, I wrote an MA thesis about John Duke (and was fortunate to sing some first performances of his songs) and learned all about the impact and importance of German romanticism on American music and on Duke's songs and aesthetics in particular. I found it enchanting. The US is a nation of immigrants, there are so many intermingling influences and yet imbued with a very American notion of rugged individualism.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> ....bearing in mind that it was Babbitt's contribution to serial theory (terms like 'pitch set') that he will be remembered for more than his compositions?


 Maybe for those who dwell most on theory vs. the music: I think of Babbitt as a composer, not 'the theorist who coined the term _pitch set._ This is like saying Stravinsky is more remembered for Polytonality and _the Petrushka Chord_ than for his music.



millionrainbows said:


> I think that cage and Boulez, and even Harrison, were trying to create a music which transcended nationalism....


 When nationalism gets as hokey as Aaron Copland in his most populist "American Mode" ala _Rodeo_, _Billy the Kid_, or _El Salon Mexico,_ why would anyone want to try to maintain, continue, or expand upon that? Is that any more aesthetically preferable than, say, the pseudo exoticism of Bantock's _In a Persian Market?_ Try the earlier Elliot Carter _Cello Sonata,_ (incidentally, in which is his first extensive use of metrical modulation) -- the third movement especially -- for a uniquely American declamatory lyricism. Keep in mind that any particular style, like any other, loses both its vitality and interest if 'frozen in time.'

Out of general curiosity, what is with all the Flag Waving and "Nationalist music." I get that it is healthy, but also expected, that Americans don't compose like Europeans. I think there is something quite 'American' about American composers -- wither it is the Ives or the near next generation of older 20th century modernists or American composers to the present day -- and that whatever traits are 'American music' cannot be attributed to a mere mode of composition, serial or any other. I do think some people heavily buy into some sort of reactionary mindset, "if a European 'invented' serialism that Americans should not use it as a means to their own ends." But I find that as irrational as saying the mid-century neo-classicists (Boston school, etc.) should not have written anything neoclassical because that, too, was a European composer's invention.

P.s. The biggest _Interruptus__* of all art and culture worldwide*_ was the insanity of two world wars, which were spawned by the devil of rampant nationlism. Advocating and moving into an international style is a perfectly sensible reaction to the most negative aspects of nationalism. Get rid of all the flags, all the dotted lines, and be a citizen, and artist, of the world. Funny thing though if you listen enough, none of the 'locals' from anywhere lost their accents or some of their national characteristics as to personal taste or aesthetic -- even the international style has marked differences between composers from different nationalities and cultures.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

...paraphrasing here composer and critic Virgil Thompson (_The Plow that Broke the Plains / The River / Four Saints in Three Acts _-- who actually 'invented' that Americana style which Copland _copied only a bit later and then made his own enough that he became famous for it._) There is enough comment to go around that Thompson was perhaps a better critic and writer on music than a composer (so the quip goes -- Italo Calvino said exactly the same thing about Copland.)

Thomson said he was often enough asked "how to be an American composer, i.e. write "American Music."
"Be American, and write however you like." 
_that is completely the U.S.American mentality; Yay, the individual, all the way --_ so, I think Mister Thompson was correct, "Be American and write any way you like."


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Virgil Thompson ... was perhaps a better critic and writer on music than a composer


If that's true, it's only because he's such a superb writer. Highly recommended (especially at the 1 cent asking price):

http://www.amazon.com/Virgil-Thomson-Reader/dp/0525481028


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Blancrocher said:


> If that's true, it's only because he's such a superb writer. Highly recommended (especially at the 1 cent asking price):
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Virgil-Thomson-Reader/dp/0525481028


His prose was as pithy as it gets, and many of the comments he made on music and performance were throughly canny (among so many things, he commented that Boulez, choosing total serialism, would soon enough write himself in to a corner

Other comments sound like they come from a genuinely enthused and naive young child: on a performance by Wanda Landowska ~ "She plays the harpsichord better than anyone plays anything!"

Apart from the collected critiques and essays, I recommend _Virgil Thompson, an Autobiography._


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