# the Talk Classical Community’s Discography of Recommended Recordings



## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

I would like to begin by saying that the project known as "The Talk Classical Community's Favorite and Most Highly Recommended Works" has been a tremendous benefit for me, and I'm sure for many others, in finding, enjoying, and getting oriented with the heap of classical music out there.

It has also come to my attention that much (~30%) of discussion threads on TC involve, in some form or another, discussion of favorite recordings. The tier system of the recommended works list consolidated the various threads out there into a single list reflecting the opinions of the entire community.

I think it would also be a great benefit to organize recordings into a similar list, with the works included in the discography corresponding to each entry in the list of works.

Currently, the Recommended Works list has a total of 6466 works. A manageable goal would be all the works before and including tier 100, with a total of 2759 works. If we spend 1 day per work, we would be able to get to the 30th tier, representing the 95th percentile, in 1 year.

So, my plan is this:

1 day per work
Tally up the amount each recording was mentioned
Record results in a spreadsheet


So a typical day would begin with the posting of the results from the previous day and the new work for the current day. Throughout the day, I would expect to receive community discussion - this could be as simple as posting the recording you like, or a full explanation on why you like it.

Obviously, this isn't a detailed policy of what I want to do. First, though, I would like to get input from the community - do you think this is a worthwhile project to undertake? If the majority of people here agree, then I'll go ahead and continue on; but if not, I'll just stop it here.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

I think this is a great idea. I love comparing recordings and I love the hunt for finding the perfect recording for me. I’m not one of those people that finds a good recording and just leaves it at that. Via TC I select my reference recording, so for example for Beethoven symphony no. 5 that would be C. Kleiber/VPO and for Mozart symphony no. 36 that would be Mackerras/SCO. Then I make sure that the recording is imprinted into my mind and then I listen to other extremely well regarded recordings. That way I can compare 2 recordings while only listening to 1 instead of sampling them next to each other. After comparing many different ones I choose my favourite wether it’s a new one or the original reference recording. After a good while I repeat the same process so I can be sure I chose the right one for me and then I never listen to any other recording


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I like the idea. There's a blog here at TC created with the same intent, and you may want to *check it* and maybe consider it's selections in your project. There are almost two-hundred pieces in it already, but it seems that the blog has been inactive since 2020.


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## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

Thanks to all who responded, I think I will wait a day or so for others to chime in before going ahead with my plan.



Xisten267 said:


> I like the idea. There's a blog here at TC created with the same intent, and you may want to *check it* and maybe consider it's selections in your project. There are almost two-hundred pieces in it already, but it seems that the blog has been inactive since 2020.


Thanks for the suggestion, Xisten267! I'll definitely consider that into the project, maybe we can skip over the works already covered by that blog...


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## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

I'll give out an update now.

As only two members from the community responded, both however with agreement to the proposal, I will proceed forward slowly. This is how it will work, for now:

- I will announce results in this thread
- The voting will take the form of a poll in the "Discussion Polls" subcategory (discussion, of course, will be encouraged)
- Each poll will be titled "Favorite Recordings Of... [Piece Name]"
- I will be keeping track of everything in a spreadsheet

I have decided to skip the pieces that Trout has already covered in his series of blog posts. Let me know if you suggest otherwise.

I have also decided to make the voting in the form of polls because of the following reasons:

- I think polls are easier to organize, as one can see the name of the piece from the topic sentence
- Polls encourage participation more than discussion threads
- Polls also allow discussion if there is any

One downside of polls is that it has a limited number of options (15, I believe) to choose from. I would think that this can be alleviated with the addition of an "Other" choice, in which you would be required to explain below in the discussion. Also, I would make polls "private", in that other users cannot see what any one user selected. This is to prevent the effects of peer pressure.

Of course, if you have any suggestions, feel free to discuss in this thread!


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## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

Current piece: *Beethoven: Piano Sonata #21 in C, op. 53 "Waldstein" [1804]*

Poll: Favorite Recordings Of... Beethoven: Piano Sonata #21 in C, op. 53 "Waldstein"


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## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

We have amassed 13 votes on the poll in two days. I think 13 is enough to draw some conclusions, but since the poll is open for another 5 days I’ll still be counting.

So, the plan should be changed to “2 days per piece”, and there will be simultaneous polls going on at the same time.

As for the spreadsheet, I’ll post a link here when I’m finished setting it up. To give you an idea of how many, I’m looking to narrow final selections down to 5-10 recordings.

Final change: in the future, I will be allowing multiple choice on polls as I realized that some people may want to pick multiple favorites.


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## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

Link to the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tYDaH6fIid-88a4GGEGEnFs-tOP8rq6f6LVuIHboO7k/edit?usp=sharing


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## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

Current piece: *Mahler: Symphony #5 [1902] *

Poll: Favorite Recordings Of... Mahler: Symphony #5


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## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

For the *Mahler: Symphony #5*:

1. Barbirolli (EMI)
2. Bernstein (WPO/DG)
3. Abbado (CSO/DG)
4. Boulez (DG)
5. Karajan (BPO/DG)

Discussion is still allowed and encouraged, but a new poll will be posted soon...


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## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

Current piece: *Sibelius: Symphony #5 [1919]*
Poll: Favorite Recordings Of... Sibelius: Symphony #5 in E-flat, op. 82


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Where is the thread for Beethoven String Quartet No. 14?


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## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

Trout already made an excellent blog post in which he already covered this particular string quartet, you may want to check that out. If you want, however, I can consider making a poll so you can share your opinions...


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I don't think it's appropriate to call the results of this "Talk Classical Community’s Discography of Recommended Recordings." First of all, the limited poll choices are arbitrary with questionable and sometimes ambiguous selections. Second of all, participation is extremely limited due to short poll times. Third because discussion is also so limited. Finally, because I think a genuine recording consensus for TC would be all but impossible to achieve, and in any case this won't look like anything close to that.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

lnjng said:


> Current piece: *Mahler: Symphony #5 [1902] *
> 
> Poll: Favorite Recordings Of... Mahler: Symphony #5


I voted Karajan :angel:


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## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

Knorf said:


> First of all, the limited poll choices are arbitrary with questionable and sometimes ambiguous selections.


I am doing my best to make the poll choices as specific as possible. I appreciate the feedback, however the problem with polls is that (1) I am not always extremely familiar with each work I am polling, and (2) if I realize a mistake afterwards, polls cannot be edited.



Knorf said:


> Second of all, participation is extremely limited due to short poll times.


I don't think limited participation is necessarily due to short poll times. 7 days, I think, is more than enough - the first poll I put up on the Waldstein sonata, had consistent participation for the first 3 days, and by now participation has largely subsided when the poll closed. What I think the reason for limited participation is that not everyone would have an opinion on a particular work - so that actually it _does_ reflect the opinions of the general community - just the opinions of the people who do have them, and that the majority don't have any opinions.

If I am wrong though, I am willing to extend the 7-day deadline to 14 days or more.



Knorf said:


> Third because discussion is also so limited.


Again, limited discussion, I think, is due to the fact that not all people of the community have an opinion. I think the thread accurately reflects the opinions of the people that do.



Knorf said:


> Finally, because I think a genuine recording consensus for TC would be all but impossible to achieve, and in any case this won't look like anything close to that.


This project is not looking for a consensus on a single recording, or 2, but the top 5. If this isn't enough to reflect the top choices by the TC community, I can also make it the top 10 for more popular works.

If anything doesn't make sense, please let me know!


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

lnjng said:


> Trout already made an excellent blog post in which he already covered this particular string quartet, you may want to check that out. If you want, however, I can consider making a poll so you can share your opinions...


I thought I saw it on the spreadsheet with the Mahler 5 and Waldstein. That was the only reason I asked.


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## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

Yes, it’s on the spreadsheet, but I put a link to the blog post to go along with it.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Knorf said:


> I don't think it's appropriate to call the results of this "Talk Classical Community's Discography of Recommended Recordings." First of all, the limited poll choices are arbitrary with questionable and sometimes ambiguous selections. Second of all, participation is extremely limited due to short poll times. Third because discussion is also so limited. Finally, because I think a genuine recording consensus for TC would be all but impossible to achieve, and in any case this won't look like anything close to that.


I completely agree especially as it is based on doing polls which are limited to 15 entries thereby making for an arbitrary selection of well known works.


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## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

Becca said:


> I completely agree especially as it is based on doing polls which are limited to 15 entries thereby making for an arbitrary selection of well known works.


Perhaps I should model these after what Bulldog and Art Rock are doing, namely:

(1) nominations, where the community nominates recordings to be voting on
(2) voting, the phase where the community votes on the nominations

Would this increase participation, and solve the problem of ambiguous/limited poll choices?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I've never placed any importance on these kinds of lists. They seem to be the product of a kind of obsession that music collectors have, of wanting to codify their taste. They also seem to be a kind of proselytizing endeavor, i.e. attempting to create a complete list of the greatest works in order to initiate new listeners into the fraternity of Classical music lovers.

Many of my favorite, most compelling, works are outliers, quirky things that would, or should, never appear on these lists.

I value more an idea to inculcate in a new listener a curiosity about music, non-judgmental, non-hierarchical - simply an open-mindedness to listen without a preoccupation with the question, "is this great music."

Only then can someone truly experience the music.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

lnjng said:


> Perhaps I should model these after what Bulldog and Art Rock are doing, namely:
> 
> (1) nominations, where the community nominates recordings to be voting on
> (2) voting, the phase where the community votes on the nominations
> ...


Actually I think that the fundamental premise of these types of threads is totally flawed, what you get is a very subjective list of the favourites of a selected few who choose to participate. One thing that we do know is that personal favourites vary wildly as can be demonstrated in threads where someone asks for suggestions about some work and you end up getting about as many suggestions as there are contributors. Were you to ask about what recordings to avoid, you would probably end up with many of the same as in the favourites list! What we need to be doing is to encourage people to sample what's available in order to find out what works for them (also to avoid reading Hurwitz and co. )

P.S. I have often found that some of the most intriguing and enjoyable performances, ones that I prefer to listen to and recommend, are not commercial, but rather are live performances which have been streamed and available on places such as YouTube, Berlin Phil's Digital Concert Hall, etc., etc.


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## lnjng (Dec 24, 2021)

Becca said:


> One thing that we do know is that personal favourites vary wildly as can be demonstrated in threads where someone asks for suggestions about some work and you end up getting about as many suggestions as there are contributors.


I don't think this is as bad as you think it is, the latest poll on Sibelius's 5th Symphony shows Karajan and Barbirolli (Karajan especially) with a clear lead.



Becca said:


> What we need to be doing is to encourage people to sample what's available in order to find out what works for them (also to avoid reading Hurwitz and co. )


I think that this project will do more harm than good. If I include ALL the suggestions, but order them based on recommendations, the spreadsheet will not discriminate against the minority. Of course, as you said, the suggestions will only be based on the people that participate - but I think that the people that do represent the opinions of the general community well.



SanAntone said:


> They seem to be the product of a kind of obsession that music collectors have, of wanting to codify their taste. They also seem to be a kind of proselytizing endeavor, i.e. attempting to create a complete list of the greatest works in order to initiate new listeners into the fraternity of Classical music lovers.


I confess, it is an obsession I have. However, the goal here is not just to "initiate new listeners", but rather give a reference to what TC has historically chosen as the best. It is up to the reader to follow it or not.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

lnjng said:


> I don't think this is as bad as you think it is, the latest poll on Sibelius's 5th Symphony shows Karajan and Barbirolli (Karajan especially) with a clear lead.
> 
> I think that this project will do more harm than good. If I include ALL the suggestions, but order them based on recommendations, the spreadsheet will not discriminate against the minority. Of course, as you said, the suggestions will only be based on the people that participate - but I think that the people that do represent the opinions of the general community well.
> 
> I confess, it is an obsession I have. However, the goal here is not just to "initiate new listeners", but rather give a reference to what TC has historically chosen as the best. It is up to the reader to follow it or not.


If you "think that this project will do more harm than good", then why are you doing it? Obsession?

BTW, having 12 voters for the Sibelius poll is hardly meaningful and certain not "what TC has historically chosen as the best"


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

I agree with some of the sentiments expressed in this thread. Please consider re-starting from the beginning and do nominations like you mentioned.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

lnjng said:


> Perhaps I should model these after what Bulldog and Art Rock are doing, namely:
> 
> (1) nominations, where the community nominates recordings to be voting on
> (2) voting, the phase where the community votes on the nominations
> ...


One thing for sure is that most members would prefer to make their own selections/nominations.

I'll offer a little advice. You're new to polls and/or games, but you have started off with a major project - likely not a good move.

My suggestion is that you cancel this thread and begin again with nominations for recordings of specific works made by participants.

You could allow a few nominations from each member per day. When the point is reached that you have 15 recordings, each nominated 3 or 5 times or something like that, you then have your 15 poll slots filled.

Stuff to keep in mind when you run a good game or poll:

1. As the manager, there will be demands on your time.
2. Consistency is necessary.
3. Don't allow derailment of your thread. There are plenty of active members who think poorly of games/polls, and a few of them might try to blow things up. I'm sure you have noticed that this has happened on this thread. Their intent may be harmless, but the result is not.

P.S. - It's best to change the title. The title as it stands gives the impression that a great many members have participated. The problem is that participation might be strong, moderate, or weak. If the title is "favored recordings of .........., the level of participation isn't a big deal. Keep in mind that the game/poll only reflects the preferences of the members who vote. It tells us nothing about the preferences or views of those who don't participate. I've noticed that you have made some assumptions about those who do not participate - you need to cut that out.

I am confident that you can make this a successful endeavor - so just do it.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Man, tough crowd!

I don't think this is a waste of time at all. It's always interesting to me to see what the consensus choice recordings are. I would have predicted Barbirolli for the Mahler 5th and Gilels for the Beethoven Waldstein, and sure enough those were the picks. It doesn't mean they are necessarily the "greatest" or that anyone who disagrees is an idiot.

People get too touchy on this forum. It's just informative discussion, nothing more.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Bulldog said:


> P.S. - It's best to change the title. The title as it stands gives the impression that a great many members have participated.  The problem is that participation might be strong, moderate, or weak. If the title is "favored recordings of .........., the level of participation isn't a big deal. Keep in mind that the game/poll only reflects the preferences of the members who vote. It tells us nothing about the preferences or views of those who don't participate.


Absolutely, and as so often is the case, the participants are a minority.


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