# What Separates Mozart from Haydn?



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Is there something that makes Mozart superior by scholarly standards? If someone with more knowledge could explain, I'd appreciate it.

BTW, I enjoy both, and typically find it hard to tell the difference. But, I do think Mozart has a bit more complex melody.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Mozart was a prodigy, cultured by his father and already travelled to all the major centers of music of his day at a young age to what was new and what was pleasing to audiences. He takes your hand and shares with you what he feels at that point in time and what's in his mind. Haydn doesn't reveal in that way. Haydn's is sheer Classicism with the sonata relying more on theme and variation. He did his best with the SQ, evolving the chamber symphony to large public concert symphonies much on his own. We are so lucky to have both truly great composers writing and composing contrasting works, yet influenced by each other to bring Classicism to its peak. We haven't seen such a period as glorious as the late 18th century in new music making since.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

ArtMusic said:


> Mozart was a prodigy, cultured by his father and already travelled to all the major centers of music of his day at a young age to what was new and what was pleasing to audiences. He takes your hand and shares with you what he feels at that point in time and what's in his mind. Haydn doesn't reveal in that way. Haydn's is sheer Classicism with the sonata relying more on theme and variation. He did his best with the SQ, evolving the chamber symphony to large public concert symphonies much on his own. We are so lucky to have both truly great composers writing and composing contrasting works, yet influenced by each other to bring Classicism to its peak. We haven't seen such a period as glorious as the late 18th century in new music making since.


Are you only in favor of the Classical Era?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Are you only in favor of the Classical Era?


No, I love the Baroque, Classical and Romantic. As for the 20th century to present day, it depends on the composer. I was saying that the late 18th century is a peak in music making for many reasons but you also have great periods in other decades, too.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

I want to put a detailed response together addressing the "Haydn v. Mozart" issue.

In the meantime take a listen to the finale of Haydn's 70th symphony...triple fugue...amazing movement:






Yes, this movement is why I selected the username "Haydn70" for this site!

Haydn was a *GIANT*...one of the key figures in Western art music...still underrated.

Here is the symphony from the beginning:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Haydn70 said:


> I want to put a detailed response together addressing the "Haydn v. Mozart" issue.
> 
> In the meantime take a listen to the finale of Haydn's 70th symphony...triple fugue...amazing movement:
> 
> ...


Will do here in a bit. Thanks for taking the time to put together a thoughtful response! .


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Haydn himself had his own view about this.

"I have often been flattered by my friends with having some genius, but he _[Mozart]_ was much my superior." 
- Haydn to the musicologist Charles Burney.

"Before God and as an honest man I tell you that your son is the greatest composer known to me either in person or by name; he has taste, and, furthermore, the most profound knowledge of composition."
- Haydn to Leopold Mozart.

"Posterity will not see such a talent again in 100 years." 
- Haydn on Mozart.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

jdec said:


> Haydn himself had his own view about this.
> 
> "I have often been flattered by my friends with having some genius, but he _[Mozart]_ was much my superior."
> - Haydn to the musicologist Charles Burney.
> ...


The OP didn't ask for posturing about his better/worse, but about how they differ musically.

I am also interested in this.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

While we are discussing, it's good to have a listen to this - friends dedicating to friends.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Haydn70 said:


> I want to put a detailed response together addressing the "Haydn v. Mozart" issue.
> 
> In the meantime take a listen to the finale of Haydn's 70th symphony...triple fugue...amazing movement:
> 
> ...


Listening now, this is grand. Classical Era music is full of Joy!


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Listening now, this is grand. *Classical Era music is full of Joy!*


Indeed it is! Ebullient, glorious music! So glad you like! :tiphat:


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Mozart's use of chromaticism is different. Mozart often used dissonance for color, or to spice up a melody etc. Haydn used chromaticism generally to modulate, this makes Haydn's use of dissonance less pronounced and more fleeting, he sounds less dissonant. I also agree with the OP that Mozart's melodies tend to sound a little more complex, and this is also related to the previous point on chromaticism. 

To me Mozart's music sounds more inspired, Haydn sounds more calculated.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

tdc said:


> Mozart's use of chromaticism is different. Mozart often used dissonance for color, or to spice up a melody etc. Haydn used chromaticism generally to modulate, this makes Haydn's use of dissonance less pronounced and more fleeting, he sounds less dissonant. I also agree with the OP that Mozart's melodies tend to sound a little more complex, and this is also related to the previous point on chromaticism.


To me, these expressions are strictly Mozart's -

Look at this part of Bernstein's lecture on Mozart's symphony in G minor K.550: [ 8:07 ]
"Do you realize that, that wild, atonal-sounding passage contains every one of the twelve chromatic tones except the tonic note G? ... Take my word for it, that out-burst of chromatic rage is Classically-contained, and so is the climax of this development section, which finds itself in the unlikely key of C-sharp minor, which is as far away as you can get from the home key of G minor."
> and then look at this modulation from G minor to E major in
missa sancti trinitatis K.167 [ 3:52 ]

Look at - Bernstein: [ 2:03 ] "But notice that Mozart's theme is already chromatically formed. And even more so when it repeats."
> and then look at these passages in
missa brevis K.275 [ 3:07 , 3:18 ] , [ 10:33 , 10:58 ] , [ 14:00 , 14:37 ]
missa brevis K.257 [ 3:57 , 4:10 ] , [ 8:22 , 9:50 ]

Look at - Bernstein: [ 2:59 ] "There's that Classical balance we were talking about -chromatic wandering on the top, firmly supported by tonic-and-dominant structure underneath."
> and then look at these passages in missa brevis K.258 [ 2:53 ~ 3:31 ]

Look at - Bernstein: [ 6:02 ] "Even this lead-in to the home key, is chromatically written, firmly held in place by a dominant pedal." 
> and then look at this passage in
missa brevis K.275 [ 7:12 ~ 7:21 ]

Look at the introduction to the K.465 "dissonance" quartet,
> and then look at this contrapuntal passage of chromatic fourths in 
missa sancti trinitatis K.167 [ 10:47 ]

Also compare K.551/iv with K.192/iii

Luchesi or Salieri, for example, ([E.M.], [H.M.], [R]) don't orchestrate like this: 
spatzenmesse K.220 [ 2:30 ~ 4:00 ]
"On the other hand, for the French, Mozart was certainly not 'one of us' from a national point of view. At the beginning of the nineteenth century, before Berlioz's time, some influential critics - for instance, Julien-Louis Geoffroy - rejected Mozart as a foreigner, considering his music 'scholastic', stressing his use of harmony over melody, and the dominance of the orchestra over singing in the operas - all these were considered negative features of 'Germanic' music."
<
View attachment 130858
>


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I actually find Michael Haydn to be more similar to Mozart in terms of style and output produced (wind serenades, divertimentos, 40 symphonies, 20 string quartets, 5~6 string quintets, litanies, requiems, vespers, etc).

Overall, I think Joseph Haydn is rather obsessed with monothematicism in the sonata form. He often focuses on timber, phrase structure and dynamics (for sudden shock effects) in the "jokes" he makes. Mozart often does his with harmony or counterpoint (in a rather "hey-look-what-I-can-do" sort of attitude). I think Michael has a lot of weirdness in terms of off-beat rhythms, counterpoint, and stile antico (in catholic music). Whereas Mozart is more about idiosyncrasies with chromaticism. I think Michael Haydn can be very different in character (perhaps not as Mozart) when he writes in minor keys. (Requiem in C minor being a good example). I think Joseph also doesn't change the principal theme very much in his variation movements, (but instead, changes the accompaniments), unlike the other two.

I don't think the 18th-century Classicists intentionally or consciously tried to be different from one another like the Romantics. But I still hear interesting differences in their expressions. I think their different educational backgrounds and regional differences of tradition (a.k.a. "dialects") caused them to be different. For example, Carl Philipp Emanuel's Hamburg symphonies of 1775 sound quite "unique" from his contemporaries, and Wilhelm Friedemann sounds rather "capricious" in feel compared to his brothers.













To me, these are the unmistakable sounds of *Joseph Haydn*:
















 (0:06~0:30) **




 (0:18~0:28) **








** the way to open and close the intros,

and these are of *Michael Haydn*:




 (pay attention to the harmony around 2:25 and compare it with 



)

















and these are of *Mozart*:





















-----

I also find that "Salzburgian" vocal music exhibits a unique sense of rhythm; for example the way Michael uses strings feels rather "unique" to me (more similar to Mozart, but less to Joseph). There are many characteristics that are difficult to describe in words, but look at these figures (which are arpeggiated AND syncopated) for example:
Johann Ernst Eberlin (1702-1762) - missa in C [ 3:30 ]
Michael Haydn requiem in C minor (1771) [ 0:55 ]
Michael Haydn missa in C "rupertimesse" (1782) [ 15:40 ]
Michael Haydn missa in C "in honorem sancti gotthardi" (1792) [ 4:14 ]
Michael Haydn missa in C "in honorem sanctae ursulae" (1793) [ 0:10 ]
W.A. Mozart missa brevis K.194 in D (1774) [ 11:06 ] ,
W.A. Mozart missa brevis K.275 in B flat (1777) [ 2:19 ] 
W.A. Mozart requiem in D minor (1791) [ 0:50 28:27 ] 
- and short semitonal phrases in the strings, like "D-C#-D.."
Michael Haydn requiem in C minor (1771) [ 8:03 ]
W.A. Mozart missa brevis K.192 in F (1774) [ 5:18 ]
W.A. Mozart spatzenmesse K.220 in C (1775) [ 6:21 ]
W.A. Mozart litaniae de venerabili altaris sacramento K.243 (1776) [ 10:55 ]
(I found them also in La finta giardiniera, K.196, but I can't remember where exactly.)



hammeredklavier said:


> Michael Haydn wrote his string quintet MH189 in 1773, in Salzburg - 1 year before Joseph (who was already working as a kapellmeister for the Esterhazies) published his Sun quartets (Op.20).
> 
> This impassioned passage (
> 
> ...





hammeredklavier said:


> Also notice the similarities in the openings of Michael's G major, MH189 and Mozart's K.387, and the finales of Michael's 23rd symphony (MH 287) and Mozart's K.387.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

ArtMusic said:


> No, I love the Baroque, Classical and Romantic. As for the 20th century to present day, it depends on the composer. I was saying that the late 18th century is a peak in music making for many reasons but you also have great periods in other decades, too.


1710s to 1740s (High Baroque music)
Late 1770s to early 1810s (later Haydn, mature Mozart, early and middle Beethoven)
Late 1810s to 1820s (late Beethoven, mature Schubert, early Mendelssohn)
1870s to 1924 (Symphonies)
Early 1900s (Impressionism and Modernism)


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I couldn't live without either. They are both so dear to me. With Haydn, I really love his masses, symphonies and the two late oratorios. With Mozart, I love everything. To be fair, I've never explored Haydn's chamber works, but I am not a fan of his work in opera. That is definitely a field where Mozart was vastly superior to Haydn, IMO.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Fun link: Can you tell who composed the string quartet movement: Haydn or Mozart?

http://qq.themefinder.org/


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Haydn's string quartets are good from the Sun Quartets onward: Opuses 20, *33*, 42, 50, 51, 54, 55, 64, 71, 74, *76*, and *77*. He was even better at string quartets than at symphonies.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

ORigel said:


> 1710s to 1740s (*High Baroque music*)
> Late 1770s to early 1810s (later Haydn, mature Mozart, early and middle Beethoven)
> Late 1810s to 1820s (late Beethoven, mature Schubert, early Mendelssohn)
> 1870s to 1924 (Symphonies)
> Early 1900s (Impressionism and Modernism)


I think the term "high", when used in this manner, denotes the middle period of larger period of an major artistic period, not the late. *Early* is used for the first part of a period, *high *for the middle part and and *late *for last part.

For example here is a chart showing the breakdown of periods within the period of Baroque architecture from the Essential Humanities website. Yes, it isn't about music but I think it makes the point:

Early Baroque ca. 1600-25	
High Baroque ca. 1625-75	
Late Baroque ca. 1675-1725
Rococo ca. 1725-1800


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I love them both, but I think there's more of a "light and shadow" expressive range in Mozart, and I think Mozart took much more of a "vocal" approach in his instrumental music -- which probably reflects Mozart's involvement with opera and liturgical music. Also I think Mozart's counterpoint, especially in his later work, is often just astounding.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Overall, Haydn is bolder and more definite, Mozart is more slippery and elusive. See the following passages as a good example:

* 19:34 | 15:05 | 20:30 | 7:44 | 10:00*


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Ethereality said:


> Overall, Haydn is bolder and more definite, Mozart is more slippery and elusive. ...


I think that's a good description.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I love this.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I feel Haydn is more blunt, more Yang. Mozart more smooth, more Yin. Personally prefer Haydn's temperament overall, but Mozart for certain moments.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ethereality said:


> Overall, Haydn is bolder and more definite, Mozart is more slippery and elusive. See the following passages as a good example:
> 
> * 19:34 | 15:05 | 20:30 | 7:44 | 10:00*


Strange comment but I can see what you're getting at, that elusiveness is, IMO, what all sensible people people mean (me included) when they say that Haydn's shallow and Mozart's deep.

You've got to be careful with these generalisations, Haydn's earlier music is outstanding IMO, I'm less interested in Mozart's final phase myself.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

I have loved Mozart as long as I have been listening to CM. His music (to me) does an excellent job of conveying varying emotions, though I confess I view much of his work as light, fun and whimsical. There are obvious exceptions, particularly his masses and late symphonies but I almost always find Mozart charming. 

Haydn's music is new to me, and his name recognition among the masses of non-classical listeners is definitely a factor as to why. But I have been listening through some of his works and have been surprised by how much I have enjoyed what I have heard. He is clearly a genius, though (to me) his music comes off as more restrained than Mozart though there are depths there as well. His string quartets in particular have been a joy to discover.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Haydn is a Morris Minor .... Mozart is a speedboat..... Beethoven is a rocket to the moon.... Simple

.... But of course sometimes you only want to pop to the shops...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

‐------------------


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I think Joseph Haydn is "wistful" rather than "dark", when he writes in minor keys (consider the opening movement of his 49th symphony, "La passione", or slow movements of his string quartets such as the Fantasia from Op.76 No.6, or Seven last words of Christ).

"The scene descends into darker regions with a stunning oboe line that reminds us of Mozart"(2:23)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

tdc said:


> I also agree with the OP that Mozart's melodies tend to sound a little more complex, and this is also related to the previous point on chromaticism.


some wonderful chromatic melodies in the Marian litany, K.195:


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I cannot explain it, but my ears can hear it.


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## LAS (Dec 12, 2014)

Bingo. "Haydn's is sheer Classicism." Hubby and I have often reflected on how similar they sound, "If it's not Mozart, it's Haydn," re stuff on the radio. But we agree that there's a difference. I think you nailed it.

BTW, what does "SQ" stand for?

tia
las


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

For me, Haydn is the composer whose music is more fun and happy. In the symphonies, Haydn's sense of humor is very apparent to me: take _#82 "The Bear"_; _#94 "Surprise"_, _#100 "Military"_; to me almost bordering on satire. My favorite is the the _#97_ that lacks a subtitle, almost as if Haydn is satirizing himself. But its all in the spirit of fun and unbounded joy.

Mozart to me is all about balance and beauty; both dramatic and emotionally stable; joyful but not without some tension; and the melodies and organization of the music has a feel that the music composes itself. Every note is in the right place. The craftsmanship is what I like about Mozart; like a chess game by Jose Capablanca (often called the "Mozart of Chess") where every move seems to make perfect sense. It took me a long time to come around to Mozart, not until I began to enjoy music just for the craftsmanship.


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