# Renaissance Sacred Polyphony (c. 1400-1600)



## JSBach85

*Renaissance Sacred Polyphony (c. 1400-1600)*

During the Renaissance period of music, roughly 1450-1600, polyphony was widely used. Early polyphony was based on a principal melody called cantus firmus, while in the 15th and 16th centuries, polyphony developed enormously and came to prevail in Western music. A wide variety of instruments proliferated, built in entire families and grouped together in minstrels' chapters or bands, which reinforced or replaced the voices in the choir.

Being my second favourite period of history, Renaissance, just after Baroque, I have several recordings comprising Franco-Flemish polyphony, spanish polyphony and in a lesser extent english polyphony and italian polyhony. Generally, I prefer male choirs for franco-flemish polypohony and male/kids or sometimes mixture of male/female choirs for spanish and english polyphony, when possible, supported with instruments. Generally in Western Europe, Renaissance Polyphony were supported by instruments doubling the voices with the exception of the Sistine Chapel, where it was mandatory to sing "a capella" since instruments were prohibited.

During Spanish Golden Age Tomas Luis de Victoria, Francisco Guerrero, Alonso Lobo and Cristobal de Morales were the most prominent spanish composers in this period.

*Tomas Luis de Victoria* (c. 1541 - 1661). Spanish composer of the sixteenth century, mainly of choral music, is widely regarded as one of the greatest Spanish classical composers. He joined the cause of Ignatius of Loyola in the fight against the Reformation and in 1575 became a priest. He lived for a short time in Italy, where he became acquainted with the polyphonic work of Palestrina. Like Zurbarán, Victoria mixed the technical qualities of Italian art with the religion and culture of Spain. He invigorated his work with emotional appeal and experimental, mystical rhythm and choruses. He broke from the dominant tendency among his contemporaries by avoiding complex counterpoint, preferring longer, simpler, less technical and more mysterious melodies, employing dissonance in ways that the Italian members of the Roman School shunned. He demonstrated considerable invention in musical thought by connecting the tone and emotion of his music to those of his lyrics, particularly in his motets. Like Velázquez, Victoria was employed by the monarch - in Victoria's case, in the service of the queen. The requiem he wrote upon her death in 1603 is regarded as one of his most enduring and mature works.

Motet Vidi Speciosam: Responsory for the feast of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary. It is a beautiful example of the polyphonic musical style that the Council of Trent promoted as the appropriate for the Catholic liturgy. The text of this motet, liturgical, is partially taken from the Song of Songs (3,6). Literally, this book of the Bible speaks of human love between a man and a woman, but both the people of Israel before Christ and the Church afterwards have also understood in him an expression of God's love for the people of Israel, and of Christ for his Church.

«Vidi speciosam sicut columbam ascendentem desuper rivos aquarum, 
cuius inaestimabilis odor erat nimis in vestimentis eius. 
Et sicut dies verni circumdabant eam flores rosarum et lilia convallium.
Quae est ista quae ascendit per desertum sicut virgula fumi ex aromatibus myrrhae et thuris?
Et sicut dies verni circumdabant eam flores rosarum et lilia convallium».

The following recording is an example of this motet using instruments doubling voices:










"Cantica Beatae Virginis - Motet Vidi, Speciosam, 1572". La Capella Reial - Hesperion XX. Jordi Savall.


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## JSBach85

*Tomas Luis de Victoria* (c. 1541 - 1661) (cont.)

Officium Defunctorum: Officium Defunctorum is a musical setting of the Office of the Dead composed by Tomás Luis de Victoria in 1603. It includes settings of the movements of the Requiem Mass, accounting for about 26 minutes of the 42 minute composition, and the work is sometimes referred to as Victoria's Requiem. Officium Defunctorum was composed for the funeral of the Dowager Empress Maria, sister of Philip II of Spain, daughter of Charles V, wife of Maximilian II and mother of two emperors; it was dedicated to Princess Margaret for "the obsequies of your most revered mother". The Empress Maria died on February 26, 1603 and the great obsequies were performed on April 22 and 23. Victoria was employed as personal chaplain to the Empress Maria from 1586 to the time of her death.

Officium Defunctorum is one of the masterpieces of Tomás Luis de Victoria, the great composer of religious polyphony in Spain. His music has not stopped being performed since the Renaissance. And his office of deceased or Officium defunctorum, continues ringing in Funerals of State. Officium Defunctorum is brilliant in itself because of the little artificiality in it. He does not resort to the frivolous adornments or the virtuoso counterpoint practiced by the Flemish composers of the time. In this work everything flows with a sober but elegant naturalness. Music is at the service of the text, as it had been promulgated in the Council of Trent a few years ago; However, it is not so much the text that speaks of death to which music is put, but rather that which makes the resurrection glimpse.

Score: Six-part SSATTB chorus. It includes an entire Office of the Dead: in addition to a Requiem Mass, Victoria sets an extra-liturgical funeral motet, a lesson that belongs to Matins, and the ceremony of Absolution which follows the Mass. Polyphonic sections are separated by unaccompanied chant incipits Victoria printed himself. The Soprano II usually carries the cantus firmus, though "it very often disappears into the surrounding part-writing since the chant does not move as slowly as most cantus firmus parts and the polyphony does not generally move very fast." The sections of the work are as follows:

- Taedet animam meam. Second Lesson of Matins (Job 10:1-7)

- Missa Pro Defunctis (Mass for the Dead)
With the Council of Trent, the liturgy of the Requiem Mass was standardized. Victoria sets all of the Requiem Mass sections except the Dies Irae sequence.

Introit
Kyrie
Gradual
Offertory
Sanctus
Agnus Dei
Communion

- Versa est in luctum cithara mea (Funeral motet)

- The Absolution: Responsory

Libera me
Kyrie

My favourite recording is Paul McCreesh / Gabrieli Consort, being a reconstruction of a Requiem Mass respecting all the parts of the Catholic Rite Mass. Furthermore, McCreesh uses a male choir with voices doubled with instruments:















Other recordings I own:

Peter Phillips / Tallis Scholars










Raul Mallavibarrena / Musica Ficta


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## Josquin13

I share your enthusiasm for the McCreesh/Gabrieli Consort recording of Victoria's Officium Defunctorum, or Requiem Mass (and for the Gabrieli's Morales Requiem as well). The Tallis Scholars are excellent too, in a recording that I listen to, from time to time, when I'm not in the mood for the full 'authentic' reconstruction in murkier cathedral (-like) acoustics. (Somedays I just want to hear Victoria's polyphony a bit more clearly.) I know about Musica Ficta by reputation, but have never heard them. Victoria's Requiem has been well served on record in recent years too, with recordings from Tenebrae (led by Nigel Short), which won a British award or two, Herreweghe, Armonico Consort, and Magnificat (led by Phillip Cave). Of these I have the Tenebrae and Magnificat recordings, both of which I like, especially Magnificat's recording. (Their leader, Phillip Cave, formerly sang with the Tallis Scholars.)

https://www.amazon.com/Requiem-Mass...6804958&sr=1-1&keywords=victoria+requiem+mass
https://www.amazon.com/Victoria-Off...sr=1-5&keywords=victoria+officium+defunctorum
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00K04WP5Y/ref=dm_rogue_digital
https://www.amazon.com/Requiem-Music-Philip-Alonso-Lobo/dp/B000007OZ9

But my favorite group for the music of Victoria has been Ensemble Plus Ultra, led by Michael Noone. They released a comprehensive 10 CD box set! of Victoria's works several years ago, which I would consider an essential purchase for those interested in exploring the music of this composer more extensively:

https://www.amazon.com/Victoria-Ens..._0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1516804536&sr=1-1-fkmr0

I've long valued Michael Noone's contributions to the Spanish repertory, ever since I first heard his recording with the Orchestra of the Renaissance of Francisco Guerrero's Requiem Mass, on the Glossa label. To my surprise, I ended up liking the Guerrero Requiem as much as Victoria's. In recent years, the original 'out of print' Glossa CD has become pricey on Amazon, but Glossa has recently reissued the recording, so it's affordable once again! (& I'd strongly recommend it, if anyone doesn't know Guerrero's Requiem & has an interest in this repertory). Here are links to both releases (the 2nd being the recent reissue):

https://www.amazon.com/Guerrero-Req...8&qid=1516804862&sr=1-3&keywords=noone+glossa
https://www.amazon.com/Guerrero-Req...=orchestra+of+the+renaissance+gurrerro+glossa








In addition, Noone has recorded Guerrero's "Missa Super Flumina Babylonis", with Ensemble Plus Ultra--which I like too, but maybe not as much as the Requiem:

https://www.amazon.com/Missa-Super-...&qid=1516804862&sr=1-10&keywords=noone+glossa

He's also made two recordings of music by Spanish composer Cristobal de Morales--of the "Assumption Mass" (with the Orchestra of the Renaissance), and a collection of works from a heavily damaged manuscript (Códice 25) that originated from Morales tenure as Maestro di Capilla of Toledo Cathedral: In 2002, Noone was the first to investigate & rediscover these never before recorded works, & to create the first performing editions. The Ensemble Plus Ultra CD is entitled "Morales en Toledo":

https://www.amazon.com/Morales-Chor...8&qid=1516804862&sr=1-5&keywords=noone+glossa
https://www.amazon.com/Assumption-M...&qid=1516804800&sr=1-11&keywords=noone+glossa

In his excellent liner notes, Noone writes that though "it had previously been thought that his [Morales'] creativity was in decline [during his years in Toledo], the newly recovered works demonstrate that Morales was in fact at the height of his powers." Yet, it is more solemn music, and I don't know if I'd recommend it as a good entry point or introduction to the music of Morales, at least not in preference as his Requiem and masses.

Which brings me to the recordings of La Capella Reial de Catalunya and Hesperion XX, led by Jordi Savall, who have probably done my favorite recordings of Morales' Requiem or Officium Defunctorum and Missa Pro Defunctis. Those two mass recordings are included in the following 3 hybrid SACD set (along with music by Victoria & Guerrero), although they were originally available on a single CD (which now, oddly enough, costs more than the set, on Amazon):

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0026S1XVO/ref=nav_timeline_asin?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/Morales-Offi...812586&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=savall+morales
https://www.amazon.com/Morales-Offi...qid=1516812586&sr=1-2&keywords=savall+morales

I'm also fond of the music of Spanish composer Alonso Lobo, who Victoria considered to be his equal, and the Portuguese composers Duarte Lobo and Manuel Cardoso. The Tallis Scholars have made good recordings of the music of all three composers, but I'd like to see Noone, Savall, and others record this music at some point too.

While I dislike listening to larger choirs singing the music of the Franco-Flemish composers, as I find their polyphony too intricate and complex for big, homogenous (often plodding) choirs to do justice to (especially in overly hazy church acoustics), I don't mind larger choirs (of maybe 12 to 16 singers--or even 24) in the works by the Spanish composers (as long as the choirs aren't too massive). I think it has something to do with what you perceptively wrote about Victoria, that his Requiem

"is brilliant in itself because of the little artificiality in it. He does not resort to the frivolous adornments or the virtuoso counterpoint practiced by the Flemish composers of the time. In this work everything flows with a sober but elegant naturalness."

Generally speaking, it is more solemn music, & certainly more unadorned, and perhaps more stripped down to the bare essentials (much like Velasquez's painting of the Crucifixion), and very powerful in this respect. In other words, the choirs don't need to be as nimble & lithe. Though I'm too an great admirer of the genius of Franco-Flemish (& Burgundian) polyphony to characterize anything about their polyphony as "frivolous", being that their works are among my favorite in music history--except when they're botched by more than 2 singers on a part in hazy church-like acoustics (as I basically prefer one singer to a part, with minimal doubling).

By the way, do you know the Cappella Praetensis recording of works by the Flemish composer Jacob Obrecht? who is thought to have been a student of Josquin Desprez. I mention it because there is a DVD documentary film that comes with the CD, which is fascinating. In the film, the group's leader Stratton Bull & a musicologist argue quite convincingly that Renaissance masses were sung by a small group of singers (basically one to a part) all standing around a church lecturn on which sat a single score (& if true, there could have been very little, if any doubling of parts). However, I don't think their argument holds up quite as well for Spain, where the church choirs were known to have been larger, if memory serves, and where none of the Franco-Flemish or Burgundian composers ever held posts (as they did in Italy). Anyway, if you haven't seen the film, the documentary is well worth watching, at least I enjoyed it:

https://www.amazon.com/Jacob-Obrech...ll&keywords=jacob+obrecht+cappella+praetensis


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## JSBach85

Josquin13 said:


> By the way, do you know the Cappella Praetensis recording of works by the Flemish composer Jacob Obrecht? who is thought to have been a student of Josquin Desprez. I mention it because there is a DVD documentary film that comes with the CD, which is fascinating. In the film, the group's leader Stratton Bull & a musicologist argue quite convincingly that Renaissance masses were sung by a small group of singers (basically one to a part) all standing around a church lecturn on which sat a single score (& if true, there could have been very little, if any doubling of parts). However, I don't think their argument holds up quite as well for Spain, where the church choirs were known to have been larger, if memory serves, and where none of the Franco-Flemish or Burgundian composers ever held posts (as they did in Italy). Anyway, if you haven't seen the film, the documentary is well worth watching, at least I enjoyed it:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Jacob-Obrech...ll&keywords=jacob+obrecht+cappella+praetensis


Well, it's hard to start in a place because I agree with you with Spanish polyphony but I also completely agree with your statements about Franco-Flemish polyphony, perhaps I would add that in my case I rather prefer male choirs over mixed choirs for Franco-Flemish Polyphony but I agree with you that smaller choirs contribute to a better transparency and clarity among voices and textures. If you do not mind, let me to start with Franco-Flemish polyphony because you mentioned one of my favourite recordings I ever purchased concerning a Franco-Flemish composer:

*Jacob Obrecht: Missa de Sancto Donatiano* (This is a picture I've taken from my recording, purchased on 2011)










Capella Pratensis is one of my favourite Renaissance Ensembles, along with Cinquecento, Capilla Flamenca, Binchois Consort. Unfortunately the earlier recordings of Cappella Pratensis have vanished from the market, but this is probably the best recording I've ever listened of them.

The DVD includes a filmed 'recreation' of the premiere 'performance' of Jacob Obrecht's Missa de Sancto Donatiano, as sung in the Donass Chapel of the Sint Jacobskerk in Bruges on an evening in October 1487. The DVD has an extended presentation with Stratton Bull, the artistic director of Cappella Pratensis who provides the history of the composition, the composer's biography, some simple analyses of the music and the liturgical context in which it existed.

Regarding the CD recording, the choir of eight men... singing as they do, from original notation, they shape their linear rhetoric with profound emotive independence. The voices are very well balanced. Despite the technical difficulties that Obrecht polyphony presents, Capella Pratensis achieves a performance of great solvency and fluidity, with a technical skill that always characterizes them. The 'ordinaries' of the mass are sung simultaneously with longer texts from the 'propers', that is, the antiphons appropriate to the celebration of the Day of Saint Donatianus, all in Latin.

This is probably the best reconstruction of a mass I ever listened to. This is also the only recording I own of Jacob Obrecht. This is a part of the recording, worths listening:


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## Mandryka

I think that whether large or small choir, instruments or a capella etc, is "authentic" or not depends on why the mass was written, if it was written for a big state occasion then I suppose a big choir was called for, with trumpets etc.

A large scale performance of an Obrecht mass which I like very much is ANS Chorus's recording of Missa Si Dedero. ANS have a great sense of horizontal drama, of ebb and flow, and a sense of how to move the music forward. I'm very interested in the later Obrecht masses and this is a recording I listen to a lot. Would it have been better with a smaller choir, all other things being equal? I can't say, maybe there would be more drama from the polyphony, hard to say.


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## Mandryka

I'm a great fan of early Cappella Pratensis under Rebecca Stewart, as Josquin13 knows -- if JSBach85 wants me to upload some of the earlier recordings which have vanished from the market, then PM me.


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## JSBach85

Mandryka said:


> I'm a great fan of early Cappella Pratensis under Rebecca Stewart, as Josquin13 knows -- if JSBach85 wants me to upload some of the earlier recordings which have vanished from the market, then PM me.


I'm a great fan of later Cappella Pratensis under other conductors because I had not chance to listen early recordings since all those have vanished from market . However I came across this re-issue that will be released on 16th February, of an older recording of Ockeghem Missa Mi-Mi:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ockeghem-Missa-Mi-Mi-Capella-Pratensis/dp/B077ZH8KDZ/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1518007155&sr=1-1&keywords=missa+mimi

This may be probably one of the recordings you are referring to.


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## Josquin13

JSBach85--Thanks for the heads up on the re-release of Cappella Pratensis' Ockeghem, under Rebecca Stewart. I don't own that CD, so onto the wish list it goes. There's also a Isaac (Missa Paschale) & Josquin (Missa "Lesse faire a mi" ("la-sol-fa-re-mi")) disc too, which I hope will be re-released as well (since I don't know either recording). I do own their disc of Josquin's beautiful "Missa est Gabriel Angelus", with motets by Mouton & Obrecht, which I'd recommend, if you can find it (at a reasonable price):

https://www.amazon.com/Missus-Est-G...27432&sr=1-2-catcorr&keywords=josquin+gabriel

My favorite recording so far by Cappella Pratensis has been their "Vivat Leo!" hybrid SACD, where they were led by Joshua Rifkin, primarily for the excellent selection of works by Josquin, Mouton, Willaert, De Silva, De La Fage, and Festa (& especially the Mouton, whose remarkable music is seriously under recorded by groups that sing one or two on a part):

https://www.amazon.com/Vivat-Leo-Mu...690&sr=1-1&keywords=cappella+pratensis+rifkin





Their performance of Josquin's towering motet, "Miserere Mei Deus", often considered one of the most quintessential motets of the early Renaissance, makes for an interesting comparison to contrasting performances by the Hilliard Ensemble and De Labyrintho, as I find all three versions quite different in approach:














I feel that both the Hilliard and De Labyrintho recordings understand the gravitas and deep emotions within the music & words with greater insight than Cappella Pratensis.

When this motet was first printed, the German publisher Hans Ott wrote in his dedication,

"I beg whether anyone can listen so carelessly as not to be moved in his whole spirit and whole intellect towards contemplating the message of the Prophet more carefully, since the melodies conform to the feelings of one who is burdened by the magnitude of his sins and [since] the very deliberate repetition [of the prayer "Miserere mei, deus"] by which [the sinner] begs for mercy, does not permit the soul either to reflect idly or to fail to be moved toward hope and assurance." (taken from "Josquin Des Prez and His Musical Legacy: An Introductory Guide" by William Elders, P. 38)

Likewise, Cappella Pratensis's singing of Josquin's "Nymphes des Bois (La deploration de Johannes Ockeghem)" is different in approach to recordings by the Orlando Consort and Hilliard Ensemble, & others.














I won't say which performance I prefer, as I consider all of the above groups to have given us some of the finest Josquin in the catalogue, and I wouldn't want to be without any of their recordings (plus, the performances compliment each other well, even though the two British groups are more in a similar vein).


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## Guest

Wonderful post and comments!! This musical genre is absolutely one of my preferred. The mystical quality of this musical period renders many of the works of the greatest masters nothing less than numinous.


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## Mandryka

JSBach85 said:


> I'm a great fan of later Cappella Pratensis under other conductors because I had not chance to listen early recordings since all those have vanished from market . However I came across this re-issue that will be released on 16th February, of an older recording of Ockeghem Missa Mi-Mi:
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ockeghem-Missa-Mi-Mi-Capella-Pratensis/dp/B077ZH8KDZ/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1518007155&sr=1-1&keywords=missa+mimi
> 
> This may be probably one of the recordings you are referring to.


What you'll find is that CP sound rather different with Rebecca Stewart, since she was working on new ways of producing sounds with the voice. I rather think I prefer her recordings than the later ones that CP made. She's worked on other stuff with other ensembles - some Heinrich Isaac and some Machaut.

I'll just mention in passing that the more I listen to Renaissance music the two french/Belgian choral composers who suit my tastes the most are Ockeghem and Obrecht. Dufay is someone who I'm thinking about a bit right now, partly because I've been very impressed by a handful of recordings - the motets by La Reverdie and the late mass, Ave Regina Coelorum, by Guiseppi Maletto and the L'Homme Armé mass by Les Jeunes Solistes.

I was struck by a comment someone made that none of the famous Flemish composers worked in Spain, and I wonder why not, I'm not clear how close the cultural relationship was when the Spanish occupied Flanders. (I've been reading a book by Marguerite Yourcenar called L'oeuvre au noir, which I recommend to anyone interested in this period.)

Josquin13 mentioned Hilliard, who are also interesting me a bit at the moment, because they're so different from the other Brit ensembles - so much more sensual, often taking the time to be more expressive. I wonder who influenced them and who they influenced. They're just not at all like Gothic Voices or Orlando Consort, for example.


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## Josquin13

"I was struck by a comment someone made that none of the famous Flemish composers worked in Spain, and I wonder why not, I'm not clear how close the cultural relationship was when the Spanish occupied Flanders."

That was me. I had never actually thought about it before, but the observation occurred to me in the moment. I don't know why none of major (or lesser) Franco-Flemish composers held posts in Spain (to my knowledge), and yet they held multiple (coveted) posts in Italy & Munich, but it's a very interesting question. Perhaps the northern Netherlandish-Dutch composers strongly resented Spain & its Hapsburg rulers? and the relationship was an uneasy one?, as occupiers are seldom popular in regions where they rule (& there was the Eighty years war, and various Dutch revolts...). 

However, weren't the Burgundian rulers in the southern region also Hapsburgs? Given the rich music & arts patronage of the Burgundian dukes, the Burgundian composers weren't likely to have held the same antipathies or open hostilities towards their patrons. So my guess is that it probably depended on the specific ruler, & there were likely political divisions between various factions within the Hapsburg family too (wasn't it always, regrettably, a 'game of thrones'?). But I don't know the history, so I can't answer your question. Perhaps someone else does?

"Josquin13 mentioned Hilliard, who are also interesting me a bit at the moment, because they're so different from the other Brit ensembles - so much more sensual, often taking the time to be more expressive. I wonder who influenced them and who they influenced. They're just not at all like Gothic Voices or Orlando Consort, for example."

Yes, that's very true of the early Hilliard Ensemble, when Paul Hillier sang with the group (as I gather he essentially led the ensemble). You can especially hear those distinctions on the You Tube examples that I posted above (which is why I thought the comparison was such an interesting one), where the early Hilliard's singing is so much more emotionally expressive, potent, & immediately present than the more detached style of the later Cappella Pratensis, or the more suave style of the Orlando Consort. The "EMI period" of the Hilliards was their best era, in my view. Those qualities are often less apparent on their later ECM recordings, after Hillier had left the group (except for their Gesauldo Tenebraes recording, which was Hillier's last outing with the ensemble). 

The same is true of the early Orlando Consort too (formed in 1988), as they too have changed over the years. The group's early Josquin, Dunstaple, and De Vitry recordings, for example, are richer and more deeply felt than some of the Orlandos later recordings, IMO. I would say they were a bit more Hilliard-like in their earlier days. And I think that is largely due to losing such incredible singers as countertenor Robert Harre-Jones, whose singing on their Josquin disc is phenomenal, along with tenor Charles Daniels, Andrew Carwood, etc.. The Orlandos have changed. Time moves on. New scholarship brings changes too (not always for the better, IMO). They're still a very fine group, but it's not entirely the same singers anymore, and I treasure some of those early recordings--which are desert island discs in my collection--more than anything I've heard the Orlandos sing in recent years (as much as I appreciate their recent Machaut & Compere).

As for your question concerning the Hilliard's influences, I'd say the early Hilliards were mavericks. They were 'the originals' upon which all the later 'one to a part' vocal ensembles were based and strongly influenced by--such as the Orlandos, for example, and later, Cinquecento, Ensemble Jachet de Mantoue, New York Polyphony, & others. (The Davies brothers were also likely influenced by the Hilliards, and vice versa, being that the Hilliards were part of the Medieval Ensemble of London.) The whole idea of just four male singers standing on a stage for two hours performing a wide range of 3 & 4 part Renaissance music hadn't really been done before, to my knowledge. Although the Hilliards were certainly influenced by David Munrow, who was hugely influential on the whole British period movement in the late 1960s & early 1970s. (Christopher Hogwood also came out of the Early Music Consort of London & probably Pinnock too). I'd say more so than Michael Morrow & John Beckett's Musica Reservata--another influential pioneering British group. The American Thomas Binkley was also very likely a strong influence too.


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## Mandryka

Re Rebecca Stewart's Missa Mi Mi, I really think that the best, maybe the only, way to appreciate her art is to listen to the mass in toto, with the propers, it should be presented like this on the new release, hopefully, the old ones had propers. I know it means settling down for a whole catholic mass, but I think it's worth it. It's as if her conception of how the music should sound is prayerful, intimate, and somehow is designed to complement chant. We're far from the idea that singing the mass is performing it. The recording is available now as a download and is streaming. 

This seems right for Renaissance masses which weren't designed to celebrate state occasions, corronations, political summits, inaugurations etc. They're not to be performed like (eg) the Missa Solemnis or the Mozart C minor mass. They're ritual prayers. In an authentic performance the listener should feel as though he's evesdropping. 

I know that I like some Hillard recordings much more than others, but I'm not sure why - I don't know that it's to do with Paul Hillier's presence. I very much like everything they've ever recorded by Lassus . . .


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## Josquin13

"I know that I like some Hillard recordings much more than others, but I'm not sure why - I don't know that it's to do with Paul Hillier's presence. I very much like everything they've ever recorded by Lassus "

I agree, their later ECM Lassus disc is first class, especially their singing of the Requiem. (Though I prefer De Labyrintho and Ensemble Daedalus in the Prophetiae Sybillarum.) But my point was that they've changed as a group over the decades, I don't think their singing or vocal blend is like it was in the group's first incarnation, with Paul Hillier. That is apparent even in their Lassus. As they sing the Requiem, for instance, at a lower pitch, so David James sounds quite different than on the earlier Lassus Penitential Psalms (and the rest of their early recordings too). They don't sound like the same group to me: for one, they're older men, and two, Gordon Jones has a different sound & style from Hillier. I also hear differences in their approach (which makes me think that Hillier had a strong influence on their early singing, as a scholar). Have you heard their earlier EMI Dufay CD or the Old Hall Manuscript recording?--those are recordings where the earlier ensemble really shined, IMO:

https://www.amazon.com/Renaissance-...=1518122846&sr=1-1&keywords=hilliard+ensemble

To appreciate how radically different the young Hilliards were when they first arrived on the early music in the late 1970s and early 1980s, you need only listen to Brno Turner & Pro Cantione Antiqua's singing of John Dunstable's extraordinary motet, "Veni Sancte Spiritus", and then compare it to the Hilliard's version on EMI. The differences are quite pronounced, in multiple ways:

Pro Cantiona Antiqua, Brno Turner:





The Hilliard Ensemble:





I know which performance I prefer, by a mile.

In contrast, I'd add that the series of recordings the later Hilliards did for the Coro label are the ones that I've liked the least by them. I actually think they're weak performances, and I'm a long standing, hugely devoted fan of the group.

Agreed, the idea that masses are "performed" is completely a modern concept.


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## Mandryka

I can't help think that Deller, the Deller Consort, was a big influence on Hilliard Ensemble.


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## Josquin13

Why? Have members of the Hilliards ever spoken about Alfred Deller as a "big influence"? I think the contrast between the style of singing of the 1970s & 80s Hilliard Ensemble and the Deller Consort is even greater than that between the Hilliards and Pro Cantione Antiqua. Though they did add instruments on some of the recordings (in the form of the Kees Boeke Consort), as Deller did (along with many of the other older groups). Granted, Deller was very likely an influence on David Munrow, so the Hilliards may have been influenced by him. But I wouldn't call it a "big influence" myself. What the Hilliards were doing in the 1970s was radically different & new.

I also think you may be underestimating the changes in the group since that mid-1980s, after Hillier left. He was their musical director, and the scholar of the group after all, and therefore he had a huge influence over the content and to an extent, the Hilliard's approach & style of singing on their EMI & early ECM recordings. Indeed, Hillier left over artistic differences, because he wanted them to record more contemporary music, such as by Arvo Part, etc., and the others didn't want to. Hillier also pushed for them to start adding female voices into the vocal mix, which the other members weren't so keen on.

John Potter also left the group in the 1990s, when Steve Harrold took over. So, with Harrold & Jones, it really became a different group after that, whatever the merits of their later decades, just as the Orlandos were different group after MacDonald, Harre-Jones, Carwood, & Daniels left.


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## Mandryka

Because the thing that's so distinctive about Hilliard and Deller is sensuality. No one else was singing with as much sensuality as Deller was in the 1960s, all the rest were singing rhythmically, and with lots of movement forward. Compare, for example, Deller's BWV 54 with Oberlin's. Or listen to the expressiveness in Deller's recording of the Byrd Masses, or Gesualdo. 

And it's sensuality, expressive sensuality, which marks out Hilliard from Gothic Voices and Orlando and indeed all others probably.

One experience I did which helped me see a bit better what's going on, I recommend it, is I listened to Plummer's Anna Mater Matis by Orlando, Gothic Voices and Hillard. 

Another thing which reveals the lack of expression is to compare Gothic Voices and Blue Heron in the anonymous Missa Ventrem Hominem, the mass is very good, it's on Vol 5 of Gothic Voices England and France series, and on the Blue Heron Medieval Christmas recording.


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## JSBach85

Sorry for the intrusion. Regarding Deller Consort, once a guy recommended me their recording of Machaut Messe A Nostre Dame, is not Renaissance Polyphony but is still polyphony and one of my favourite masses ever composed by the way. I have been exploring and listening to several recordings of Messe A Nostre Dame: Ensemble Gilles Binchois, Ensemble Organum, Hilliard Ensemble, Taverner Choir, Deller Consort. Deller consort is the only one using instruments doubling voices. I tried to find an answer to justify or refuse the use of instruments in this mass, instruments would also be used that would double or replace some or, at certain times, all vocal lines? or on the contrary this mass was performed unaccompanied? 

There is very little that is known about this type of practices during the 14th century. It is true that in the 15th century, on certain occasions and in special celebrations (coronations, great solemnities), instruments were sometimes used during the liturgical service, without being able to specify exactly how (if they sounded along with the voices, or carried out separate interventions, or if they doubled or substituted vocal lines), but I couldn't find information that such a thing happened in Machaut's time. 

I have read that Machaut was a great lover of all kinds of musical instruments, but he mentions them above all by referring to them as particularly appropriate for his songs; we have to suppose that the Mass supposed a different case? There is a speculation on the possibility that a small organ could have been used, as support for some of the voices, but still no evidence... I have been interested in Machaut's Messe a Nostre Dame since some years ago and how could have been performed in Reims is one of my favourite topics concerning Early Music.


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## Mandryka

I doubt that Machaut would have experted the mass to be performed much with instruments, at least not at Reims where the singers would have been good enough not to need an any help.


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## Josquin13

Mandryka writes, "Because the thing that's so distinctive about Hilliard and Deller is sensuality. No one else was singing with as much sensuality as Deller was in the 1960s, all the rest were singing rhythmically, and with lots of movement forward. Compare, for example, Deller's BWV 54 with Oberlin's. Or listen to the expressiveness in Deller's recording of the Byrd Masses, or Gesualdo.

And it's sensuality, expressive sensuality, which marks out Hilliard from Gothic Voices and Orlando and indeed all others probably."

Okay, I see where you're coming from now. Yes, I agree. The early Hilliards are more sensual in their singing. You're right that is more similar to Deller's approach. Excellent point. But I wouldn't call it "sensuality" myself, that's not how I would describe it. I think of it more as a greater expression of human feeling, or a more varied range of human emotion conveyed through the voices. But whatever you call it, we're actually talking about the same thing. I see that now.

While there may be traces of these qualities on certain later Hilliard Ensemble recordings--post-1990 or thereabouts (as their 1990 ECM Gesualdo Tenebrae was Hillier's last recording with the group), my point was that the Hilliards have gradually, since then, moved more & more away from that intent of human expression in their singing, as the personnel in the group has changed (& also perhaps partly due to certain changes in Renaissance scholarship?). One of the examples you gave, John Plummer's Anne Matis Mater is a perfect example, and I completely agree, on that recording they sound a lot closer to Deller in the sense that you mean; however, that's an early Hilliard recording from 1982, which pre-dates their core EMI years, and it's a different group of singers for the most part. The counter-tenor is Ashley Stafford, & not David James (a big difference), and tenors Paul Elliott and Leigh Nixon were still singing with the Hilliards at that time (as was bass Paul Hillier). Only Rogers Covey-Crump, among the ensemble's later members, sings on that recording. So it really was a different group. And that was my point (when I spoke of the "Paul Hillier" years).

While there may be traces of what you're describing on the later Hilliard recordings, overall I don't think they sound as "sensual" or expressive, not as they did in the 1970s & 80s, & certainly not on that 1982 Harmonia Mundi recording. Yet, even so, I would still agree that in later decades they sang with more expressiveness than most of other British groups, such as the Gothic Voices or The Clerk's Group, or later incarnations of the Orlando Consort.

But as I see it, a gradual and general trend has taken place among most of the British groups away from that kind of 1970s & 80s singing (or 1960s, if you include the Deller Consort). (Which is essentially your point too, I gather?) The Orlando Consort likewise sang more like the 1980s Hilliards in their initial years, when they recorded on the Raum Klang label, than they did later for DG Archiv, for the most part (such as on their recording of De Vitry motets for Raum Klang). Granted, it's not as pronounced a change with the Orlandos, but I think there has, nevertheless, been a subtle shift in their singing towards a more suave detachment, if you will, or coolness of human emotion than one hears on their early De Vitry motets (& on their Josquin Archiv disc too, which is one of the finest CDs they've made, IMO, but again, that was a different line up of singers at the time).

The trend may also have something to with certain scholars like David Fallows, whose writings have more or less caused ensembles to take instruments out of their Renaissance vocal performances; which is what caused the Davies brothers to call it quits, and disband the Medieval Ensemble of London back in late 1980s. Surely, the presence of instruments in Renaissance vocal performances carried an undeniable degree & range of expression that had to be matched by and seamlessly blended with the voices.

In addition, the 1960s, 70s, & 80s were intensely musical decades, across all genres of music making on the planet. There was nothing whatsoever cool and emotionally detached about music making in those days.

However, the comparison that I was making between the Hilliards and the older British groups, such as Turner's group, was something different. I can often find the older performances a bit stodgy & heavy in execution--despite that they are more emotionally or "sensually" expressive in their singing, as you say. Generally, I don't find the performances of Pro Cantione Antiqua or the Deller Consort anywhere near as forward moving or as fluid or nimble as the Hilliards. I don't hear "lots of forward movement' in either the Deller Consort or Pro Cantione Antiqua recordings, especially in the slower movements, which can sound ultra-slow, even tedious, to my ears. There's an 'old fashioned' quality to their singing that makes some of the part singing (though granted maybe not on Deller's line) sound a bit stuck in the mud to me. The later British groups are considerably more lithe and nimble in their singing, which represents progress in my view; though yes, at the same time, the later groups are also more emotionally cool, sometimes even coldly detached, or as you say less expressive. And I certainly don't think the latter represents progress: which is one of the reasons why in the past I've tended to prefer the continental groups over the British groups--with the exception of the 1970s & 80s Hilliard Ensemble, and certain recordings by the early Orlando Consort, and lately, I've also liked Cinquecento too (who are British, correct?).

I suppose the continental groups have, to some extent, likewise moved away from this "sensuality" you describe, as well--but maybe for different reasons, and on other terms. I thought Beauty Farm's recent Ockeghem CD was oddly brusque and detached in this regard, and their singing left me largely unmoved and disinterested. However, I don't find that the same is true of La Main Harmonique, La Reverdie, La Morra, Diabolus in Musica, Ensemble Nova, De Labyrintho, and Weser-Renaissance, fortunately.

For those that may be wondering what we're talking about--here are two clips to help explain (one from the 1982 Hillards & the other from the Deller Consort in the music of Byrd):


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## Mandryka

Yes that recording of Medieval English Music was their first I think. They covered similar ground in their final recording, the one called Transeamus, but to my ears it's lost the magical freshness. 

I think there's a new wave of sensual early music singing which goes way beyond anything heard before - ensembles like Tetraktys, Marc Maulllion, Graindelavoix, Anonymous 4, possibly Blue Heron, possibly Lucien Kandell. You may find their way of singing too static - as I expect you do for Rebecca Stewart's work. Re Reverdie, I revisited their Dufay motets and was really impressed - less so by the other things I sampled, I would like to get to know what they did better. 

I don't know much about Cinquecento - they sing composers who are off my radar. Lately I've been gobsmacked by Cardinall's Musick in Ludford and Oxford Camerata's Dufay. I like Beauty Farm's Ockeghem as you may remember


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## Josquin13

JSBach85 writes, "I tried to find an answer to justify or refuse the use of instruments in this mass, instruments would also be used that would double or replace some or, at certain times, all vocal lines? or on the contrary this mass was performed unaccompanied?"

That is likewise an ongoing debate in my head, which hasn't been adequately resolved. We know for a fact that instruments were plentiful during the age of the early & late Renaissance, right? and that they were used extensively at the Court of Burgundy, which served as the model for all of the noble courts across Europe. Therefore, it's hardly surprising to find instruments later used at the Renaissance Court of Bavaria (in Munich) and today used in vocal performances of the music of Lassus and his student Gabrieli in Venice. I've also noticed that instruments are still used in both the sacred & secular music of Heinrich Isaac as well, without any apparent objection (?). 

So, why is it now so 'wrong' to use instruments in the Burgundian composer Dufay's Missa "Se la face ay pale", for instance, as David Munrow did with his Early Music Consort of London? I gather that, other than the organ (& ?) the argument is that instruments weren't allowed in Catholic churches during the Renaissance, and therefore, weren't used in the singing of masses in church; even though they were widely used in at the noble courts across Europe, and also widely used in many of the contemporary instrumental transcriptions of movements from those church masses (which were strictly performed outside churches?).

Yet, the Davies brothers were basically driven out of the early music scene by these "advances" in scholarship--proposed by a small group of notable scholars, though not all scholars have agreed--for using instruments on their recordings of Josquin's 3-part chansons and Dufay's complete motets, but not on their 2 Desprez masses. Such practices seem pretty reasonable to me, so why did they have to call it quits? I don't understand.

Maybe David Fallows & co. don't have it entirely right? I can't imagine that performances of secular music didn't vary during those times. Can there really have been a strict, rigid set of performance rules back then (that weren't clearly written down)? I can't imagine that instruments weren't sometimes used, & sometimes not used in performances of secular music in those times, depending on the given day, monies available to pay the musicians, size of the venue, etc. etc. It's also difficult to imagine that if instruments were indeed so plentiful at the Court of Burgundy (& at other noble courts across Europe) that instrumentalists never once accompanied singers in motets or chansons, or ever made their way into the churches of the Burgundian dukes & nobles either, that is, as accompanists.


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## Josquin13

"Yes that recording of Medieval English Music was their first I think."

No, it wasn't their first--they made a number of recordings in the 1970s, as the group originally formed in 1974. There were actually about nine recordings before the "Medieval English Music" recording. They are as follows:

1. "Popular Music from the Time of Henry VIII" (with the New London Consort) on the Saga label, 1977.
2. "The Romantic Englishman" on the Meridan label, 1977.
3. "Songs for a Tudor King (with soprano Judith Nelson) on the Saga label, 1978.
4. Lionel Power: Messen und Motetten, EMI Reflexe, 1980
5. 17th & 18th Century Songs and Catches, "The Merry Companions--Songs and Catches from Purcell to Arne") on the Saga label, 1981 or earlier.
6. Philippe De Monte: Sacred & Secular Works (with the Kees Boeke Consort), on EMI Reflexe, 1981.
7. Heinrich Isaac: Sacred & Secular Works (with the Kees Boeke Consort), on EMI Reflexe, 1981.
8. Cipriano de Rore: Le Verine, on Harmonia Mundi, 9/1982.
9. John Dunstable: Motets, on EMI Reflexe, 9/1982.

But the "Medieval English Music" CD for Harmonia Mundi was also recorded in 9/1982, so it was around the same time as the de Rore & Dunstable discs. Although the majority of the Hilliard's EMI Reflexe recordings were recorded between 1983 & 1989. It had slipped my mind what a pioneering label EMI Reflexe was, & I needed a reminding. (Now if some label would only remaster all those recordings.)

"You may find their way of singing too static - as I expect you do for Rebecca Stewart's"

I'm undecided about Stewart, at least during her time with Cappella Pratensis, as I haven't heard enough. I plan to though. I'd like to hear her Josquin mass. What I didn't overly care for was what I heard from Stewart in a live concert with one of her recent groups on You Tube. I thought the singing was weak, amateurish--it may have been a student group.

As for the other ensembles you mention, no, I like all of them (except Marc Maulllion, who's a new name to me), and especially Blue Heron. Though I can find Grandelvoix a bit erratic (not surprisingly, given their exploratory, experimental bent). For example, I didn't like how they sang Ockeghem's "Mort tu as navré de ton dart" motet. It didn't work for me, & I much prefer La Main Harmonique and Capilla Flamenca in this motet (which is a favorite of mine). But I've liked them elsewhere. As for Tetraktys, I've lately been enjoying their Matteo da Perugia disc:

https://www.etcetera-records.com/album/617/chansons

along with this one, which I think you recommended to me:

https://www.etcetera-records.com/album/556/o-tu-cara-scienca-mie-musica

And I agree that the Cardinall's Music is excellent in the music of Nicholas Ludford on ASV (& Fayrfax too).

Yes, I remember now that you liked Beauty Farm's Ockeghem. But I can't recall why? It's so radically different from the Hilliard's Medieval disc, are you sure? As for the other Austrian/German groups (plus John Potter), I've liked much of what I've heard from The Sound and the Fury so far, in their "Paradise Regained" series (esp. their Faugues & Caron). I also think highly of Stimmwerck and Weser-Renaissance, Bremen. But I'm like you in the sense that I don't stick with just one style of singing, or approach. Though I've yet to be won over by Beauty Farm. I know many people think highly of their Gombert discs, but I've not heard them. The truth is, as you may recall, I'm not always a huge fan of Gombert's music, either--so it may be a bad combination.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Josquin13 said:


> Yet, the Davies brothers were basically driven out of the early music scene by these "advances" in scholarship--proposed by a small group of notable scholars, though not all scholars have agreed--for using instruments on their recordings of Josquin's 3-part chansons and Dufay's complete motets, but not on their 2 Desprez masses. That seems pretty reasonable to me, so, why did they have to call it quits? I don't understand.


Christopher Page, Daniel Leech-Wilkinson, David Fallows, Tess Knighton and others launched a sometimes vicious (Leech-Wilkinson's word) campaign in major music publications to discredit those groups who were using instruments in their performances. They were determined to change the way the music was performed and to influence the record-buying public and through them the record companies. They spared none of the instrument-based groups whose recordings they reviewed. There was an "intensive propaganda bombardment" (Leech-Wilkinson's phrase) and such performances were called "dishonest", "insulting", "unreliable", "ridiculous". The message was clear: buy Gothic Voices, the Taverner Consort, and the Hilliard Ensemble, and abandon the rest. The campaign was largely a success.

The Davies brothers were converted and in an interview Peter explained that they really wanted to perform the music the right way, but then the brothers, being instrumentalists, would have nothing to do. In the end they decided to give it up rather than go on getting it "wrong" or not being involved.


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## Mandryka

Josquin13 said:


> "Yes that recording of Medieval English Music was their first I think."
> 
> No, it wasn't their first--they made a number of recordings in the 1970s, as the group originally formed in 1974. There were actually about nine recordings before the "Medieval English Music" recording. They are as follows:
> 
> 1. "Popular Music from the Time of Henry VIII" (with the New London Consort) on the Saga label, 1977.
> 2. "The Romantic Englishman" on the Meridan label, 1977.
> 3. "Songs for a Tudor King (with soprano Judith Nelson) on the Saga label, 1978.
> 4. Lionel Power: Messen und Motetten, EMI Reflexe, 1980
> 5. 17th & 18th Century Songs and Catches, "The Merry Companions--Songs and Catches from Purcell to Arne") on the Saga label, 1981 or earlier.
> 6. Philippe De Monte: Sacred & Secular Works (with the Kees Boeke Consort), on EMI Reflexe, 1981.
> 7. Heinrich Isaac: Sacred & Secular Works (with the Kees Boeke Consort), on EMI Reflexe, 1981.
> 8. Cipriano de Rore: Le Verine, on Harmonia Mundi, 9/1982.
> 9. John Dunstable: Motets, on EMI Reflexe, 9/1982.
> 
> But the "Medieval English Music" CD for Harmonia Mundi was also recorded in 9/1982, so it was around the same time as the de Rore & Dunstable discs. Although the majority of the Hilliard's EMI Reflexe recordings were recorded between 1983 & 1989. It had slipped my mind what a pioneering label EMI Reflexe was, & I needed a reminding. (Now if some label would only remaster all those recordings.)
> 
> "You may find their way of singing too static - as I expect you do for Rebecca Stewart's"
> 
> I'm undecided about Stewart, at least during her time with Cappella Pratensis, as I haven't heard enough. I plan to though. I'd like to hear her Josquin mass. What I didn't overly care for was what I heard from Stewart in a live concert with one of her recent groups on You Tube. I thought the singing was weak, amateurish--it may have been a student group.
> 
> As for the other ensembles you mention, no, I like all of them (except Marc Maulllion, who's a new name to me), and especially Blue Heron. Though I can find Grandelvoix a bit erratic (not surprisingly, given their exploratory, experimental bent). For example, I didn't like how they sang Ockeghem's "Mort tu as navré de ton dart" motet. It didn't work for me, & I much prefer La Main Harmonique and Capilla Flamenca in this motet (which is a favorite of mine). But I've liked them elsewhere. As for Tetraktys, I've lately been enjoying their Matteo da Perugia disc:
> 
> https://www.etcetera-records.com/album/617/chansons
> 
> along with this one, which I think you recommended to me:
> 
> https://www.etcetera-records.com/album/556/o-tu-cara-scienca-mie-musica
> 
> And I agree that the Cardinall's Music is excellent in the music of Nicholas Ludford on ASV (& Fayrfax too).
> 
> Yes, I remember now that you liked Beauty Farm's Ockeghem. But I can't recall why? It's so radically different from the Hilliard's Medieval disc, are you sure? As for the other Austrian/German groups (plus John Potter), I've liked much of what I've heard from The Sound and the Fury so far, in their "Paradise Regained" series (esp. their Faugues & Caron). I also think highly of Stimmwerck and Weser-Renaissance, Bremen. But I'm like you in the sense that I don't stick with just one style of singing, or approach. Though I've yet to be won over by Beauty Farm. I know many people think highly of their Gombert discs, but I've not heard them. The truth is, as you may recall, I'm not always a huge fan of Gombert's music, either--so it may be a bad combination.


I was confusing it with Music for a Tudor King, which I love, I haven't heard the two you listed before them yet.

Beauty Farm are about to  release a new recording of music by Pierre de la Rue, I haven't really explored the Bauldeweyn, but I guess he must be a good composer if his music was mistakenly attributed to Josquin. I like their Ockeghem Missa Quinti Toni because of the harmonies.

Re Rebecca Stewart, the reason I think she's interesting is that she seems to be exploring a style of tone production for the composed masses which is similar to the style employed by singers of plainchant. And she is not afraid to adopt a tactus which allows the music to be expressive, and to be static and unassertive - both qualities I enjoy (you're speaking to a Feldman fan here!)

Enjoyed Hilliard's Isaac disc this week. I heard Marc Maullion sing Machaut earlier this week in Paris, he's good!


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## JSBach85

Josquin13 said:


> I share your enthusiasm for the McCreesh/Gabrieli Consort recording of Victoria's Officium Defunctorum, or Requiem Mass (and for the Gabrieli's Morales Requiem as well). The Tallis Scholars are excellent too, in a recording that I listen to, from time to time, when I'm not in the mood for the full 'authentic' reconstruction in murkier cathedral (-like) acoustics. (Somedays I just want to hear Victoria's polyphony a bit more clearly.) I know about Musica Ficta by reputation, but have never heard them. Victoria's Requiem has been well served on record in recent years too, with recordings from Tenebrae (led by Nigel Short), which won a British award or two, Herreweghe, Armonico Consort, and Magnificat (led by Phillip Cave). Of these I have the Tenebrae and Magnificat recordings, both of which I like, especially Magnificat's recording. (Their leader, Phillip Cave, formerly sang with the Tallis Scholars.)
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Requiem-Mass...6804958&sr=1-1&keywords=victoria+requiem+mass
> https://www.amazon.com/Victoria-Off...sr=1-5&keywords=victoria+officium+defunctorum
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00K04WP5Y/ref=dm_rogue_digital
> https://www.amazon.com/Requiem-Music-Philip-Alonso-Lobo/dp/B000007OZ9
> 
> But my favorite group for the music of Victoria has been Ensemble Plus Ultra, led by Michael Noone. They released a comprehensive 10 CD box set! of Victoria's works several years ago, which I would consider an essential purchase for those interested in exploring the music of this composer more extensively:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Victoria-Ens..._0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1516804536&sr=1-1-fkmr0
> 
> I've long valued Michael Noone's contributions to the Spanish repertory, ever since I first heard his recording with the Orchestra of the Renaissance of Francisco Guerrero's Requiem Mass, on the Glossa label. To my surprise, I ended up liking the Guerrero Requiem as much as Victoria's. In recent years, the original 'out of print' Glossa CD has become pricey on Amazon, but Glossa has recently reissued the recording, so it's affordable once again! (& I'd strongly recommend it, if anyone doesn't know Guerrero's Requiem & has an interest in this repertory). Here are links to both releases (the 2nd being the recent reissue):
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Guerrero-Req...8&qid=1516804862&sr=1-3&keywords=noone+glossa
> https://www.amazon.com/Guerrero-Req...rchestra+of+the+renaissance+gurrerro+glo ssa
> View attachment 101104
> 
> 
> In addition, Noone has recorded Guerrero's "Missa Super Flumina Babylonis", with Ensemble Plus Ultra--which I like too, but maybe not as much as the Requiem:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Missa-Super-...&qid=1516804862&sr=1-10&keywords=noone+glossa
> 
> He's also made two recordings of music by Spanish composer Cristobal de Morales--of the "Assumption Mass" (with the Orchestra of the Renaissance), and a collection of works from a heavily damaged manuscript (Códice 25) that originated from Morales tenure as Maestro di Capilla of Toledo Cathedral: In 2002, Noone was the first to investigate & rediscover these never before recorded works, & to create the first performing editions. The Ensemble Plus Ultra CD is entitled "Morales en Toledo":
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Morales-Chor...8&qid=1516804862&sr=1-5&keywords=noone+glossa
> https://www.amazon.com/Assumption-M...&qid=1516804800&sr=1-11&keywords=noone+glossa
> 
> In his excellent liner notes, Noone writes that though "it had previously been thought that his [Morales'] creativity was in decline [during his years in Toledo], the newly recovered works demonstrate that Morales was in fact at the height of his powers." Yet, it is more solemn music, and I don't know if I'd recommend it as a good entry point or introduction to the music of Morales, at least not in preference as his Requiem and masses.
> 
> Which brings me to the recordings of La Capella Reial de Catalunya and Hesperion XX, led by Jordi Savall, who have probably done my favorite recordings of Morales' Requiem or Officium Defunctorum and Missa Pro Defunctis. Those two mass recordings are included in the following 3 hybrid SACD set (along with music by Victoria & Guerrero), although they were originally available on a single CD (which now, oddly enough, costs more than the set, on Amazon):
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0026S1XVO/ref=nav_timeline_asin?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
> https://www.amazon.com/Morales-Offi...812586&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=savall+morales
> https://www.amazon.com/Morales-Offi...qid=1516812586&sr=1-2&keywords=savall+morales


Spanish Renaissance Sacred Polyphony is usually my favourite among others, this is because of the versatility. The use of instruments doubling voices, as well as "niños cantores" that would be translated into english something like as "kid choristers" (kids that sing in a professional choir) is well historically documented at least in Seville Cathedral: "_One of the remarkable features of Seville Cathedral's music making was the participation of ministriles who played shawms, cornetts, sackbuts and dulcians. Indeed, in 1526 it was the canons of Seville Cathedral who formally established the earliest known Cathedral wind band in Spain.In 1533, the canons decided to offer long term contracts to the wind musicians, agreeing that it would be a very useful thing... to make use of every kind of instrumental music in this cathedral: especially since it is so famous and splendid a temple and of such large dimensions... and moreover all other Spanish cathedrals, though many enjoy much smaller incomes, make constant use of instrumental music_" Extracted from Francisco Guerrero Requiem by Michael Noone recording booklet but there are even more evidences, from the same booklet: "_... In addition to possessing a fine high tenor voice, Guerrero himself played harp, vihuela, organ and cornett and there seems little doubt that all of these instruments would have been employed by the musicians who played for the composer's own Requiem Mass_". Another resource from Seville Cathedral, 16th century, quotes: "_Pues es costumbre loada y aprovada que aya en las iglesias que las puedan sostener músicas de voces y de instrumentos para solenizar las festividades_." that translated into english adapted from old castillian would be: "_For it is customary and approved that there be in the churches that can sustain music of voices and instruments to celebrate the festivities._".

Seems that the use of instruments in spanish sacred polyphony performed in Cathedrals was fairly usual and this is just random evidence, of course there are more evidences. The use of instruments was even more common in "Villancicos", a common poetic and musical form of the Iberian Peninsula and Latin America popular from the late 15th to 18th centuries, but considered as profane by the religious authorities in Spain.

Regarding recordings of Spanish Renaissance Sacred Polyphony... this is a matter of a very very long discussion. In general terms I have a deep respect for McCreesh Requiem reconstructions recordings of Victoria and Morales, I own both recordings but I would like to discuss them further. I am also committed to Michel Noone with Richard Cheetham recordings for Morales and Guerrero, they usually collaborate in several recordings and Orchestra of the Renaissance is a great ensemble comprising cornetts and sackbutts. I own all the recordings mentioned but I also have other recordings that are among my favourites of this period. I will mention only one for now because of lack of time:

*Francisco de Peñalosa - Missa Nunca Fue Pena Mayor*. Dominique Vellard / Ensemble Gilles Binchois. Les Sacqueboutiers.










Peñalosa's career encompassed the early period of Spain's Golden Age, and the discovery of the New World which marked Spain's ascent to world dominance in the early sixteenth century. Though much of it has not survived, his remaining religious music includes 22 motets, five of which are included on this disc, and six settings of the Mass. In addition to the Mass, considered Peñalosa's masterpiece, Vellard adds a selection of motets and hymns, including not only Sacris solemnis, but also Memorare Piissima, whose attribution to Peñalosa has been widely debated. Dominique Vellard and the other four singers specially chosen for this repertoire feature for this recording (performed at Maguelone Cathedral) with the collaboration of Les Sacqueboutiers, an exceptional ensemble of winds. Ensemble Gilles Binchois is one of the best, if not the best performers for medieval period, their Messe de Nostre Dame is without a question my reference recording for this mass. They do not sign with vibrato, their voices are clear and their pronunciation perfect as well as technically solvent. The sound quality is among the best I could find for recordings of this period.

Sanctus, Missa nunca fue pena mayor, Peñalosa. Dominique Vellard / Ensemble Gilles Binchois. Les Sacqueboutiers.






Agnus Dei, Missa nunca fue pena mayor, Peñalosa. Dominique Vellard / Ensemble Gilles Binchois. Les Sacqueboutiers.






I think is neccesary to put "Missa nunca fue pena mayor" in context. "Missa nunca fue pena mayor" is based on the secular song "nunca fue pena mayor". The song text is attributed to Duke of Alba, around 1470. The melody may be based on a popular work of the time. On this song several masters composed their parody masses, as is the case of Pierre de la Rue or Francisco de Peñalosa.

_Nunca fue pena mayor
ni tormento tan estraño,
que iguale con el dolor
que resçibo del engaño.

Y este conosçimiento
faze mis dias tan tristes,
en pensar el pensamiento
que por amores me distes.
Y me faze por mejor
la muerte con menor daño
que el tormento y el dolor
que resçibo del engaño._

Translated into english: be aware that is translated from old Castillian and using google translate because I do not have enough time at this moment...

"_It was never a greater penalty
no torment so strange,
that equals pain
I receive the deception.

And this knowledge
It makes my days so sad,
in thinking the thought
that you gave me for loves
And it makes me better
death with less damage
that the torment and the pain
I receive the deception_."


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## Josquin13

JSBach85--I had never heard the music of Peñalosa before, thanks for the introduction. I'll have to explore further. I also had forgotten that instruments were used so prevalently in Spanish churches, such as at the Sevilla Cathedral. I wonder how David Fallows & co. handle that problem?, given that these were Catholic churches, and therefore, it's not unlikely that musicians might have done the same in Italian churches too.

Ensemble Gilles Binchois is likewise a favorite of mine too.


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## JSBach85

After reading Josquin13 in the Music Theory forum I remembered a recording I want to discuss further:










Some of the most impressive Renaissance vocal works are recorded here, truly complex, multi-voiced polyphony including the 40 part work Ecce beatam lucem by Alessandro Striggio and the 40-part motet from Thomas Tallis: "Spem in alium", along with a 24-voice setting of "Qui habitat" by Josquin Desprez. I have had this recording many times on my hands but never purchased. Years ago I thought that performance was so "heavenly" that lose the "human side", I don't know how to explain it, sounds so different to other renaissance works... the recording is too perfect that I wonder how that pieces should have sounded actually. It should have been really difficult to perform such motets with boys and male choirs and I am really curious to know further about it, how this sound could have been achieved? Today we have women singing the higher pitches but we do know that in that period women were not allowed to sing in mixed choirs. Is just a mistery to me.


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## Mandryka

JSBach85 said:


> Well, it's hard to start in a place because I agree with you with Spanish polyphony but I also completely agree with your statements about Franco-Flemish polyphony, perhaps I would add that in my case I rather prefer male choirs over mixed choirs for Franco-Flemish Polyphony but I agree with you that smaller choirs contribute to a better transparency and clarity among voices and textures. If you do not mind, let me to start with Franco-Flemish polyphony because you mentioned one of my favourite recordings I ever purchased concerning a Franco-Flemish composer:
> 
> *Jacob Obrecht: Missa de Sancto Donatiano* (This is a picture I've taken from my recording, purchased on 2011)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Capella Pratensis is one of my favourite Renaissance Ensembles, along with Cinquecento, Capilla Flamenca, Binchois Consort. Unfortunately the earlier recordings of Cappella Pratensis have vanished from the market, but this is probably the best recording I've ever listened of them.
> 
> The DVD includes a filmed 'recreation' of the premiere 'performance' of Jacob Obrecht's Missa de Sancto Donatiano, as sung in the Donass Chapel of the Sint Jacobskerk in Bruges on an evening in October 1487. The DVD has an extended presentation with Stratton Bull, the artistic director of Cappella Pratensis who provides the history of the composition, the composer's biography, some simple analyses of the music and the liturgical context in which it existed.
> 
> Regarding the CD recording, the choir of eight men... singing as they do, from original notation, they shape their linear rhetoric with profound emotive independence. The voices are very well balanced. Despite the technical difficulties that Obrecht polyphony presents, Capella Pratensis achieves a performance of great solvency and fluidity, with a technical skill that always characterizes them. The 'ordinaries' of the mass are sung simultaneously with longer texts from the 'propers', that is, the antiphons appropriate to the celebration of the Day of Saint Donatianus, all in Latin.
> 
> This is probably the best reconstruction of a mass I ever listened to. This is also the only recording I own of Jacob Obrecht. This is a part of the recording, worths listening:


I've set myself a project of exploring Obrecht's masses on record, while reading Rob Wegman's book. What I want to say is how outstanding the mature masses are, particularly M Si Dedero, M. Cela sans plus and M. Maria Zart, they are IMO major summits of Renaissance music. All three recorded on Hungaroton by Janos Bali, M. Maria Zart by Tallis Scholars too. None of the recordings are ideal, all of the recordings have a lot to offer.


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## Mandryka

JSBach85 said:


> After reading Josquin13 in the Music Theory forum I remembered a recording I want to discuss further:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the most impressive Renaissance vocal works are recorded here, truly complex, multi-voiced polyphony including the 40 part work Ecce beatam lucem by Alessandro Striggio and the 40-part motet from Thomas Tallis: "Spem in alium", along with a 24-voice setting of "Qui habitat" by Josquin Desprez. I have had this recording many times on my hands but never purchased. Years ago I thought that performance was so "heavenly" that lose the "human side", I don't know how to explain it, sounds so different to other renaissance works... the recording is too perfect that I wonder how that pieces should have sounded actually. It should have been really difficult to perform such motets with boys and male choirs and I am really curious to know further about it, how this sound could have been achieved? Today we have women singing the higher pitches but we do know that in that period women were not allowed to sing in mixed choirs. Is just a mistery to me.


They were always complaining that the kids weren't up to singing the music a capella , that's one of the reasons for instrumental accompaniment. They used castrated men too, but they were expensive, had to be imported from Italy etc.


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## San Antone

Josquin13 said:


> But my favorite group for the music of Victoria has been Ensemble Plus Ultra, led by Michael Noone. They released a comprehensive 10 CD box set! of Victoria's works several years ago, which I would consider an essential purchase for those interested in exploring the music of this composer more extensively


A great set, but it does not include the Requiem from 1605. It has the earlier one from 1598. I agree that the McCreesh recording is very good. But as you say, there have been several more recent recordings that are very much worthwhile.


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## JSBach85

Following with Renaissance Spanish Polyphony today I got this recording:










Contains some sacred works of Seville Cathedral dedicated to Virgin Mary from ca. 1470 to 1550 in Spanish Golden Age of Polyphony. Among the works, Salve Regina by Fernando Perez de Medina is dated anywhere near the date of his appointment to Queen Isabella's chapel on 7 November 1477. Combines the most beautiful instrument setting doubling voices and is a great example of the use of instuments in Seville Cathedral. Because is not available in youtube, I uploaded it from cd: (just play it)

Medina - Salve Regina
http://chirb.it/spzIHG

The performance lacks of clarity and emotiveness in voices but the instruments sound great thanks to Orchestra of the Renaissance performance, a fantastic Renaissance instrumental ensemble. However, the best feature of this recording is the notes of the booklet:

"_By the end of the fifteenth century, Seville was one of the most important - and one of the richest - cities in the Spanish Kingdoms_." "_The musical resources of Seville Cathedral thus included a substantial choir of adult singers and composers, a choirschool and a number of instrumentalists: from at least the early years of the sixteenth century, the cathedral employed an alta band of three shawms and two sackbuts on a full-time basis. The whole question of voices and instruments in sixteenth-century sacred music is vexed one, partly because much research remains to be done, and partly because of the nature evidence itself. The chapter acts and other documentary sources of information from Seville point to patterns of performance practice common to other major European cathedrals of the time. Instrumentalists were clearly required for the major feasts of the liturgical year and their primary function, at least at first, seems to have been to play in outdoor processions held on thse days. For example, Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Easter, Ascension, Pentecost, Corpus Christi and the major Marian feasts were occasions when the instrumentalists would have played. But what precisely would they have played? This is a much more difficult question to answer as the documents almost never specify what pieces they were to perform... Other evidence is currently coming to light as far as the range of polyphonic repertory played by instrumentalists is concerned: whole books of polyphony were copies for them, with motets as well as hymns and Salves among the works to be performed instrumentally. It is probably something to do with the strength of the British choral tradition that we have become accustomed to hearing polyphony of the first half of the sixteenth century performed a cappella: the evidence from Seville and many of the other Spanish cathedrals of the siglo de oro is that their sound world was considerably more colourful than we might expect..._" "_Organ, harp and bajon (bass dulcian) became increasingly important as the sixteenth century progressed, and players of these instruments were also employed on a more or less regular basis by the major cathedrals." "The possibilities for performing the sacred polyphony composed by musicians trained and working in Seville are thus more wide-ranging than has generally been accepted_."


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## Musica Enchiriadis

Hi everyone !
Maybe it's the wrong place... but I didn't want to open a new thread.
About the interpretation of the sacred polyphony of the Renaissance, I just write a little article about the sense of the expression "a cappella", and the exception of the Capella Sistina. 
Maybe it could be interest somebody who understand a little french (there is also a lots of pictures  ).

https://musicaenchiriadis.wordpress.com/2020/04/11/pourquoi-dit-on-chanter-a-cappella/

A video version is also available !


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## Rogerx

Musica Enchiriadis said:


> Hi everyone !
> Maybe it's the wrong place... but I didn't want to open a new thread.
> About the interpretation of the sacred polyphony of the Renaissance, I just write a little article about the sense of the expression "a cappella", and the exception of the Capella Sistina.
> Maybe it could be interest somebody who understand a little french (there is also a lots of pictures  ).
> 
> https://musicaenchiriadis.wordpress.com/2020/04/11/pourquoi-dit-on-chanter-a-cappella/
> 
> A video version is also available !


No worries, right place, looks very good, will look in to it.


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## cheregi

I saw some discussion earlier in this thread about the Cappella Pratensis recordings under Rebecca Stewart - I'm quite new to this whole branch of music, but those recordings do strike me as something really unique and special, even outside of the question of historical authenticity, a point on which I understand Rebecca Stewart is something of a maverick. It's a shame that some of them are basically impossible to find anywhere - does anyone have any leads? There are three in particular I'm trying to track down.

Also, semi-relatedly, what do people here think of the The Sound And the Fury / Beauty Farm sort of 'style' or sound, by which I mean that bassy, rhythmic, dissonant, anti-'blend', less-reverberant approach to this repertoire? I know it bills itself as more historically accurate, but sometimes I worry, as someone who knows most of what I know about this stuff from CD liner notes, that it's less committed to historical accuracy than it is to a blanket rejection of the older, mostly English canon of recordings...


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