# SOPRANO TOURNAMENT: (Final): Ponselle vs Sayao



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Rosa Ponselle, USA, 1897-1981 (tied then defeated Tebaldi 18-13, Boninsegna 10-9, Callas 22-19)






Bidu Sayao, Brazil, 1902-1999 (defeated Fleming 18-5, Rethberg 13-8, Destinn 12-7)






Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

This is very like a 5'7" male model who looks great in catalogues and swim wear, but pales in comparison to 6'3" models if he walked down the runway with them modeling high fashion. Context is everyting. Both ladies do really stellar performances. Both artists had unbelievably beautiful voices . In this recording Sayao has an edge because her small voice recorded so well. Her emotions were really wonderful. But Ponselle was a superior artist in revealing the emotions, especially in the first part. You have to work a bit to appreciate Ponselle as her Tyrannosaurus rex size voice just blew the circuits on many of the high notes. Both ladies handled the coloratura well but in my opinion Ponselle gets many extra points because she is moving that Rolls Royce type voice as far as size and quality on a sports car obstacle course of embellishments. I shouldn't mention this but I also think of the rest of the role and know Ponselle would have the vocal size to handle the material better than Sayao. I appreciate both but give the garland to Ponselle. This is a true dramatic coloratura soprano singing in full glory in her case.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

And here I've been thinking that this music is difficult to sing!

It almost seems unfair to choose between these operatic paragons. The way Ponselle gets her Aida voice around the coloratura, and at a tempo that leaves behind a cloud of dust, is pretty amazing. The transposition is awkward - they should have transposed "Ah, fors' e lui" down too - but I don't really care about that.

If Ponselle's voice is a bit darker and weightier than I like in the role, Sayao's is a bit lighter and brighter. But her performance is such a knockout both technically and histrionically that that doesn't matter either. I think her lightning coloratura must have made my eyes as wide as saucers. 

Both these audiences heard singing of a sort that we can't. But it's become clear to me that Bidu Sayao was a musician, vocalist and vocal actress of the first order, and that rare combination of excellences is certainly on display here. I'll have to give this one to her.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Seattleoperafan said:


> This is very like a 5'7" male model who looks great in catalogues and swim wear, but pales in comparison to 6'3" models if he walked down the runway with them modeling high fashion. Context is everyting. Both ladies do really stellar performances. Both artists had unbelievably beautiful voices . In this recording Sayao has an edge because her small voice recorded so well. Her emotions were really wonderful. But Ponselle was a superior artist in revealing the emotions, especially in the first part. You have to work a bit to appreciate Ponselle as her Tyrannosaurus rex size voice just blew the circuits on many of the high notes. Both ladies handled the coloratura well but in my opinion Ponselle gets many extra points because she is moving that Rolls Royce type voice as far as size and quality on a sports car obstacle course of embellishments. I shouldn't mention this but I also think of the rest of the role and know Ponselle would have the vocal size to handle the material better than Sayao. I appreciate both but give the garland to Ponselle. This is a true dramatic coloratura soprano singing in full glory in her case.


I liked this post not only because it perfectly summarised my own opinions, but because it is the first TC post (that I know of, if there are others please point me to them) where Tyrannosaurus Rexes, male modelling, dramatic coloratura soprano singing, swimwear, beautiful voices, Rolls Royces, and Rosa Ponselle were coherently gathered together in a brilliant expose.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Fuunily enough, I was listening to the Ponselle *Traviata* only a few days ago and it's a very impressive performance, though there are times she overdoes the histrionics, particularly in the gambling scene when Alfredo denounces her. The screams and shrieks she emits while Jagel is still singing rather go beyond the bounds of good taste, though she redeems herself with a beautiful and infinitely touching _Alfredo, Alfredo_. I don't much like the jarring transposition for _Sempre libera_ but the coloratura is incredible at Panizza's breakneck speed. Ponselle sounds much more like a Violetta to me too.

I agree with Woodduck's assessment on Sãyao's performance, but I don't actually hear much of Violetta here. The voice is just too bright and too light. Lord knows how she'd cope with the rest of the role. I also really dislike the interpolated high note at the end of _Ah fors' e lui_ which totally destroys the reflective nature of the aria, something that Ponselle captures really well.

My vote goes to Ponselle.

Incidentally, and as a postscript, Sãyao gets only a couple of mentions in John Steane's _The Grand Tradition_, compared to the in depth analysis of Ponselle, a name that also crops up from time to time throughout the book. Did he underestimate her? I don't know that much of her work. I have a lovely disc in the Sony Heritage series that includes her performane of Villa-Lobos's _Bachianas-Barisleiras no 5_, but that's about it.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> This is very like a 5'7" male model who looks great in catalogues and swim wear, but pales in comparison to 6'3" models if he walked down the runway with them modeling high fashion.


I'll take either, do you have their phone numbers? :devil:

N.

P.S. I voted for Ponselle for the same reasons others have mentioned.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Fuunily enough, I was listening to the Ponselle *Traviata* only a few days ago and it's a very impressive performance, though there are times she overdoes the histrionics, particularly in the gambling scene when Alfredo denounces her. The screams and shrieks she emits while Jagel is still singing rather go beyond the bounds of good taste, though she redeems herself with a beautiful and infinitely touching _Alfredo, Alfredo_. I don't much like the jarring transposition for _Sempre libera_ but the coloratura is incredible at Panizza's breakneck speed. Ponselle sounds much more like a Violetta to me too.
> 
> I am out of my depth perhaps here, but wasn't an overly emotional performance more accepted in the Depression era? You guys likely know that better than I do, but I am speculating. Also, Ponselle was almost as much Italian as she was American, and that is part of their culture. i think overly emotional performances were more common in Italy during that era on recordings. I think she spoke Italian at home. I also wonder if it the sighs and sobs, that are a bit jarring to modern ears, played differently at the back of a huge hall as opposed to hearing them alone in our home or car today.
> 
> P.S. I follow many hundreds of male fashion models on Instagram so I have knowledge of that subject like some of the elite of our Forum do on musical topics who dazzle us with their operatic bon mots weekly, but that is a topic for private chat. LOL.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Tsaraslondon said:
> 
> 
> > Fuunily enough, I was listening to the Ponselle *Traviata* only a few days ago and it's a very impressive performance, though there are times she overdoes the histrionics, particularly in the gambling scene when Alfredo denounces her. The screams and shrieks she emits while Jagel is still singing rather go beyond the bounds of good taste, though she redeems herself with a beautiful and infinitely touching _Alfredo, Alfredo_. I don't much like the jarring transposition for _Sempre libera_ but the coloratura is incredible at Panizza's breakneck speed. Ponselle sounds much more like a Violetta to me too.
> ...


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Seattleoperafan said:
> 
> 
> > Oh I think you're absolutely right and it had a lot to do with the style of performance in those days, but today it comes across a bit like the aural equivalent of silent movie acting, and I find it just too over the top. She is a superb Violetta nonetheless, and one of the few sopranos who canencompass all its vocal demands.
> ...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Tsaraslondon said:
> 
> 
> > For me I only find her 'over-the-top' interpolations a lapse in style in a mid Verdi opera. Whereas, I don't mind that type of thing in Verismo, where it is more part of the ethos of that style of opera. Ponselle was singing this about 10-11 years after Puccini's death and was much closer to the Verismo era than the 1850s and the idea that the 'correct' styles of performance for each operatic period are wildly different is a more recent phenomenon.
> ...


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I've never heard of a *Traviata* transposing _Sempre Libera_. Ponselle should be disqualified for that alone, in my opinion.

No trills in _follegiare_ and _mio_. A slither in the final descending scales - Mme. Ponselle should've insisted on a less propulsive tempo, unless she just wanted to get it over with. An outstanding voice, though.

Mme. Sayao works out the coloratura better than her coeval, at the right key. She emotes just as well as Mme. Ponselle. That her voice is of a smaller caliber is between herself and her God (she was born in Brazil and, naturally, is Catholic), but she did a lot with it, as we can hear. She eschews the trills mentioned above and the subsequent ones). She also forgoes some clarity in her final scales.

As to whether Steane mentions her or not, Mme. Sayao made the bulk of her appearances at the Metropolitan Opera in New York, so maybe Steane didn't know much about her.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> I've never heard of a*Traviata* transposing _Sempre Libera_. Ponselle should be disqualified for that alone, in my opinion.


It was quite common at one time. Tebaldi used to transpose it down too.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Another impossible choice.
One is more powerful and stronger with faster, sometimes wild tempos but plenty of sensitive expression while the other is more gentle and delicate in her phrasing with superb highs in the "ah forse lui" (despite the final note where she stumbled).
I listened so many times that I made it tougher on myself. However, in the final analysis I did choose Sayao. (Maybe my Mama shoved me)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Sãyao gets only a couple of mentions in John Steane's _The Grand Tradition_, compared to the in depth analysis of Ponselle, a name that also crops up from time to time throughout the book. Did he underestimate her? I don't know that much of her work. I have a lovely disc in the Sony Heritage series that includes her performane of Villa-Lobos's _Bachianas-Barisleiras no 5_, but that's about it.


I recall hearing bits of Sayao's Manon from a Met broadcast of the '40s. It was delightful and a model of style, and I've seen her called ideal in the part. Here is a televised performance of the gavotte from 1951:






I gather she sang with Bjorling in Gounod's _Romeo et Juliette,_ and I would love to have heard them together in any number of things.

There's a fair amount of her on YouTube, where I found this beautiful "Ah non credea":


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I recall hearing bits of Sayao's Manon from a Met broadcast of the '40s. It was delightful and a model of style, and I've seen her called ideal in the part. Here is a televised performance of the gavotte from 1951:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That Manon is wonderful and good quality for the time. She is perfect for the role. Someone commented she wanted to sing Puccini but knew it wasn't right for her lyric instrument.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I recall hearing bits of Sayao's Manon from a Met broadcast of the '40s. It was delightful and a model of style, and I've seen her called ideal in the part. Here is a televised performance of the gavotte from 1951:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, and there is this Don Pasquale






And Pelleas et Melisande


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

While we're flooding the thread with Sayao performances, here's a _Boheme_ with her at the center of a wonderful cast. De Luca is going strong at 64! Tokatyan is a one of those second tier tenors who can be first rate when energized. Pinza is luxury casting -- also known as "regular casting" in those days.

I am undecided about the Ponselle/Sayao after one listen. I agree with Woodduck that neither is what I look for in a Violetta, and that makes it a little harder for me weigh their performances. I look forward to deliberating further.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

These two performances are so different it's really hard to decide... I think I'll follow vivalagentenuova's example and also take some time to break the tie.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

I went to Frau Sayao mainly because of the extreme sound poor quality in the video of Frau Ponselle. This one isn't an aria I like very much, although it is very demanding, but I have the impression that Frau Sayao is singing more effortless and with more light into her voice. Maybe, with another, better quality video, I had voted for Frau Ponselle who, generally speaking, is better known to me. Very nice game.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I gather she sang with Bjorling in Gounod's _Romeo et Juliette,_ and I would love to have heard them together in any number of things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I voted for Ponselle. I don't have anything profound to say, I just really liked her performance. Her voice is so wonderfully rich.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I just created an introductory speech on Rosa Ponselle that I posted to Youtube and will do for my Toastmaster Club next week:



 . I've been doing Zoom meetings and speeches for a year and I think I am using the camera better. I was cuter 5 years ago but I am more proficient now LOL


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I just created an introductory speech on Rosa Ponselle that I posted to Youtube and will do for my Toastmaster Club next week:
> 
> 
> 
> . I've been doing Zoom meetings and speeches for a year and I think I am using the camera better. I was cuter 5 years ago but I am more proficient now LOL


You are so right, John. Britney Spears is no Tesla.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> You are so right, John. Britney Spears is no Tesla.


I sure appreciate you watching!!!!!!!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I sure appreciate you watching!!!!!!!!


I do enjoy your talks and your love for opera. And you're still cute enough...for a geezer (said another geezer).


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Wow, the soprano finale is tied and I've yet to vote. If anyone would like to make a final plea for their artist go ahead and speak eloquently while keeping in mind that bribery is encouraged. I accept PayPal or Venmo.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

We are comparing a lyric coloratura singing in her natural tessitura vs a dramatic soprano singing rep half an octave higher than her natural tessitura. Sorry, they were both lovely, but I don't think this is a fair comparison.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> We are comparing a lyric coloratura singing in her natural tessitura vs a dramatic soprano singing rep half an octave higher than her natural tessitura. Sorry, they were both lovely, but I don't think this is a fair comparison.


Well, it looks as though Sayão is to be crowned the ultimate winner of the soprano competiton, but we must not forget that we are only talking about this one aria. I suspect that if you were to compare her and Ponselle in the whole role, then Ponselle woud win hands down. I also suspect that if you were to compare Ponselle and Callas in the whole role, then Callas woud win that contest. Isolated arias do not give us the complete picture.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well, it looks as though Sayão is to be crowned the ultimate winner of the soprano competiton, *but we must not forget that we are only talking about this one aria.* I suspect that if you were to compare her and Ponselle in the whole role, then Ponselle woud win hands down. I also suspect that if you were to compare Ponselle and Callas in the whole role, then Callas woud win that contest. Isolated arias do not give us the complete picture.


exactly. I also realize it would be super pedantic for me to be like "we can only compare people of exactly the same fach!", but in this instance, there's like....half an octave distance in their tessituras. kinda makes them hard to compare haha


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well, it looks as though Sayão is to be crowned the ultimate winner of the soprano competiton, but we must not forget that we are only talking about this one aria. I suspect that if you were to compare her and Ponselle in the whole role, then Ponselle woud win hands down. I also suspect that if you were to compare Ponselle and Callas in the whole role, then Callas woud win that contest. Isolated arias do not give us the complete picture.





BalalaikaBoy said:


> exactly. I also realize it would be super pedantic for me to be like "we can only compare people of exactly the same fach!", but in this instance, there's like....half an octave distance in their tessituras. kinda makes them hard to compare haha


Should I have cancelled the finale once I saw the matchup? What do yall want from old Bonetan? Styles make fights!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

It wouldn’t be “fair” to cancel it at that point, but it is an interesting result. I suppose it comes down to the purpose of this contest. At no juncture could we try to find “the best” singer by comparing them by using a single aria with no qualifying criteria and even then it would still be subjective. An impossible task. 
Thanks for giving us this most interesting game.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Should I have cancelled the finale once I saw the matchup? What do yall want from old Bonetan? Styles make fights!


Not to worry. No one will come away thinking that anyone has been chosen the "greatest" anything. It's the pleasure of the journey that matters, and what we've learned about singing and how to listen to it. You've come up with some of the best!


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