# Household names vs. lesser-known orchestras



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Per the title, do you have any preferences between big name orchestras as opposed to more obscure ones? I've seen people on here express love for recordings by the latter groups (including lesser known conductors too) and even favor their interpretations as well. That applies to me to, where I will find a lesser known orchestra with an interpretation that really clicks with me. I'm concerned with the music first and foremost and the label and orchestra's prestige doesn't really play a role with me. 

As with any professional industry, the biggest companies (i.e orchestras) are always going to be attractive landing spots for professionals and pay better or even comfortably than other orchestras. Going by that logic, I would assume that the BPO or Wiener Philharmoniker tend to get the top pickings from the talent pool. However, it would be a grave insult to the world professional musicians to say a recording or the talent ability is somehow "lesser" than a household name just because of the different level of prestige of the orchestra. Because every professional musician who has busted their behind to play music at this high of a level is at the top of their game. 

To put the question in a bit of a clunky way, do you think the musicians the Wiener Philharmoniker employs are somehow better than the Slovak Radio Symphony Orchestra, for example? I think professional musicians who post on here could provide a special and interesting insight into the matter.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Top orchestras (in Europe) pick the best international candidates. You can have an oboe player from France, a tuba player from Belgium, a hornist from the UK, a few Russian violinists, a Spanish first cello and so on... The amount of money each orchestra has at their disposal plays a large role in determining which orchestra will the top talent want to join. Berliner Philharmoniker have extremely high salaries, and the Wiener Philharmoniker are not very far behind.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

I like rooting for the little guy, so I like to see when lesser known orchestras are able to hold their own against the power-houses.

I mean it's great to hear Leonard Bernstein or Herbert Von Karajan at the helm of the Vienna Philharmonic, but it's also kind of like routing for the New England Patriots before Brady left them; or the New York Yankees back when they were on one of their hot streaks winning series after series. You may as well root for Amazon who's making more money than ever, as opposed to all the Mom and Pop stores that are struggling and going out of business during the pandemic.

While Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic Orchestra rightly deserve credit for the first complete Mahler cycle, there was also Maurice Abravanel who brought Mahler from Vienna to the heart of the American West, Mormon Country, and made the Utah Symphony Orchestra's take on Mahler a viable set. While Bernstein captures the drama, Abravanel has a more subtle and measured approach. While the Utah players don't deliver the same punch as the New Yorkers, the playing from Utah is sincere, and not bad. The Abravanel/Utah Symphony Orchestra's Mahler cycle was released on the Vanguard budget label, and back when I was a high-school kid working part time washing dishes in an Italian restaurant for $2 per hour, my first recording of Mahler's _Symphony #1 "Titan" _was Abravanel and the Utah Symphony Orchestra on an LP.









Along the same line, is one of my very few big-name concert experiences, when while still in my late teens or very early twenties I went to see Yehudi Menuhin and the Warsaw Sinfonia in concert. When I think of all the countries of Europe: the British, the French, the Germans, the Russians, and how they all were major players on the world stage; and then there's Vienna, a city that is practically regarded as the music capital of the world; it really makes me want to like this little band from war-torn Poland, repeatedly conquered and divided up by the surrounding powers. Think of World War II, for example, and being at once invaded by the Nazis on one end and the Communists on the other! But the Warsaw Sinfonia is great little orchestra from a great little country and a reflection of incredible and resilient people. I have some from very fine recordings from the Warsaw Sinfonia under the baton Sir Yehudi: The complete Beethoven and Schubert cycles on CD by the Warsaw Sinfonia.

















Then there are the NAXOS recordings which has been a key factor in my special interest in American composers, and the NAXOS label has done much to enlist lesser known orchestras to bring forth the American classical oeuvre in all it's diversity; like the American culture itself: a water of many fishes of many different colors. But NAXOS has also provided some lesser known orchestras a chance to show that they can hold their own even in terms of the warhorses; the standard repertoire. One of my favorites in this regard is the NAXOS Sibelius cycle featuring Petri Sakari and the Iceland Symphony Orchestra; another little orchestra from a another little country with a very small population, and quite isolated. In a field that includes Bernstein and Karajan; the likes of the great orchestras from Vienna, London, London, New York, and Sibelius' home team: Helsinki; the Icelanders play with enough heart and soul to carry the day.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I have heard stories from musicians that the big market orchestras can become jaded, filed with hubris, and will treat a conductor rudely (Rattle with Berlin comes to mind), and/or phone in performances. Also the soap opera of political and personal relationships often take center stage causing the music to suffer.

Lesser well known groups cannot take anything for granted and generally will give it their best.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The top-ranked orchestras are rated that way because they are that much better player per player. Hearing an orchestra like Chicago, Cleveland, Boston, Philadelphia, Vienna, Berlin and such in a live concert can be life changing. They play with such precision, intonation and balance that it's breathtaking the first time you experience it. But do I think they give better concerts than lesser knowns? Nope, not at all. Those other groups can play with as much passion and more than the big boys. Nowadays the level of training people get in music schools large and small is amazing and fine players turn up everywhere. But in auditions the smallest differences can decide who goes to Chicago and who goes to Des Moines. I've heard all the Big Name orchestras with hot shot conductors. And I've traveled around and heard many smaller, less prestigious groups. I heard thrilling, beautiful performances from both famous and not famous orchestras. And I've heard boring concerts from both groups. The biggest difference to me is in the quality of the string playing. In great orchestras the string players are top-notch, from the first stand to the last. In lesser groups it tapers off as you move to the back.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Sometimes, too, the top orchestras cultivate a particular sound that the second tier ones cannot easily emulate, although national styles have been falling by the wayside. Nothing sounds like the VPO, for years nothing sounded like the CSO's brass, Cleveland's precision, and for years the best "French" orchestra in the world was Munch's BSO. Kubelik did very well for years in Munich and made many fine recordings -- but his mono ones during his brief CSO tenure sounded better because the orchestra was.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Coach G said:


> I like rooting for the little guy, so I like to see when lesser known orchestras are able to hold their own against the power-houses...
> 
> ...I have some from very fine recordings from the Warsaw Sinfonia under the baton Sir Yehudi: The complete Beethoven and Schubert cycles on CD by the Warsaw Sinfonia.
> 
> ...


Totally agree, Coach G. The Schubert cycle is vastly underrated (as is Menuhin's earlier cycle). . I have Sakari's very good Sibelius too but left it off the pic. Lol.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

And it's not just lesser-known professional orchestras, I have heard some spectacular performances by youth orchestras which only gather 2 or 3 times a year. There are also the orchestras put together for special occasions, e.g. Lucerne Festival, Philharmonie Festiva, etc.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Far more than not, I am impressed by the quality off lesser known orchestras that are used by labels (eg. Hyperion) that provide great recordings at low cost.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

A little off-topic, but have the "Big 5" US orchestras been in a sort of decline since the 80s or thereabouts? Or maybe it's just that there are more high-quality orchestras around now. It seems that in the past most rankings of "top 10 orchestras" would probably have included at least 4 of those 5, but now I don't know if more than 2 would make it. In most such recent ratings that I've looked at the LA Philharmonic comes up frequently, but I have to admit I've never listened to many recordings of that orchestra. I would imagine Berlin, Vienna and the Royal Concertgebouw are still going strong.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

consuono said:


> A little off-topic, but have the "Big 5" US orchestras been in a sort of decline since the 80s or thereabouts?...


The whole "Big5" concept is mostly fictitious...perhaps it had some application economically, but musically it's been pretty variable...at present (pre-covid) the highest paid orchestras in US were Chicago/LAPO, SFSO, NYPO and Boston...
Musically- the "Big 5" may have existed briefly in the mid-late 50s, but changed after that....before 1950 - the "5" are NYPO, Philadelphia, Chicago, Boston and NBCSO....Cleveland is much smaller, part-time...nowhere near the status of top level... 
During the 50s, NBC folds, Chicago and Cleveland advance by leaps and bounds under Reiner and Szell respectively. Boston is on the decline, Munch's lack of interest in rehearsing and drilling becoming apparent...BSO management hires Leinsdorf to restore standards, but he is not the man for the job and morale and playing standards deteriorate further...not a happy period for this august ensemble. 
Meanwhile, Mehta and LAPO are on the rise, as their many Decca recordings display...so a 60s "5" might reasonably be CSO, NYPO, Philadelphia, Cleveland, LAPO....
During ensuing decades - Chicago and NYPO are highest paid, the others not far behind...
I've heard CSO, BSO and NYPO frequently, and they sound great..haven't heard LAPO or SFSO in some time, but past concerts were excellent.
the west coast orchestras surge economically with the new century...of course, the big change is the dramatic rise in the so-called 2nd or 3rd rank orchestras...these are very fine ensembles, featuring full season, summer seasons, full-time employment....


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Some Lesser-known orchestras in Germany are top-notch. Not sure if it is the same in other countries.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Bruckner Anton said:


> Some Lesser-known orchestras in Germany are top-notch. Not sure if it is the same in other countries.


Music schools around the world turn out so many highly skilled players every year that want to play and show up in the strangest places sometimes. Germany has about 120 full-time professional orchestras. A few of them are genuinely world class (eg Berlin, Munich, Leipzig, Dresden). Many are excellent and hold their own by any standard (Dusseldorf, Bamberg, Cologne, Hamburg, Berlin Staatskapelle) and all of the radio orchestras (Stuttgart, Berlin, Munich) are superb. And then there are the smaller, regional groups that put many orchestras in the USA to shame. But this is not surprising; Germany treasures its musical heritage and the people want to support it. The USA has quite few world-class ensembles, but you wouldn't know it anymore because of the recording industry. Many of the 2nd tier orchestras, particularly in the midwest, are superb. Then there are the regional, smaller groups that are just fine. Austria, for all its musical history, only has one world-class orchestra: the VPO. The Vienna Symphony, the ORF Orchestra and the orchestras in Graz and Linz are very good. Italy really struggles - they don't have a single world-class orchestra, and France barely holds onto one. Mexico City has a great orchestra, as does Sao Paolo. The China Philharmonic is terrific when they want to be. There are fine orchestras everywhere!


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