# A question on ARVO PÄRT please



## Jeff1

Hello friends,

I will appreciate an explanation on the following


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## Manxfeeder

Did you mean to attach something?


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## Jeff1

*Reposting the question*



Manxfeeder said:


> Did you mean to attach something?


For some reason my message was cut.. sorry. here it is. Thanks.

Hello friends,

I will appreciate an explanation on the following


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## Jeff1

Hello friends,

I will appreciate an explanation on the following í ½í¸Š

I see that ARVO PÃ„RT is considered a postmodern composer, and his composition - Tabula Rasa from 1984 categorized accordingly (t.ly/kpkQ , t.ly/j0d6) 

If any of you could kindly explain exactly what makes the composer and this piece categorized as postmodern

Thanks in advance.
J


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## DaddyGeorge

I find this article, if it helps you...
Curtis Lindsay:
I think it's important to acknowledge that we don't have any clean, uncontroversial opinions on the table about exactly what a postmodern style or period is in classical music. These matters are usually decided in retrospect--even then it's a fairly touchy matter (Bach didn't know he was a Baroque composer, after all, much less that his work would later be described as the zenith of an era)--and so speaking in the present about postmodernism with any authority is a tricky proposition.

One view on this, and the philosophy I tend to favor, is the Nietzschean idea that each generation or period of artistic endeavor encapsulates its own "modern" and "postmodern" ideals, in which case there really is no such thing as capital-m Modernism, and, by extension, no such thing as Postmodernism. In this conception, modernism is defined by what is trending at any given now, and postmodernism is created by forces which react positively or negatively to those trends in short succession. So, taking Beethoven as an example--an important "bridge" figure--young and middle period Beethoven constitute contemporaneous modernism in that he was strongly engaged in the musical dialectic and practice of the time, while late Beethoven is marked by extension of and reaction against his earlier work: more expansive and original structures, a greater interest and practice in learned counterpoint from ages past, and so forth.

Another idea of modernism is that as a cultural movement it corresponds roughly to the Enlightenment culture obsessed with progress through reason, which would mean that modernism in music equates more or less to what is called Common Practice, encompassing much of the musical literature from post-Bach to the early XX century; therefore post-modernism means everything from Debussy, Stravinsky, and Schoenberg forward.

But the prevailing classification tends to consider modernism in classical music to be exactly the cultural reactions against Common Practice sensibilities that appeared in response to Wagner and late Romanticism more generally, informed by the thoroughly industrialized and globalized world which emerged as a product of the great World Wars. I am not sure this distinction will stand up to scrutiny very well two centuries from now, but, for the time being, there you have it. This means that the primitivists, neoclassicists, seralists, and pretty much all of the early XX century "-ists" are considered modernists, while postmodernists are those who have picked up the banner in the wake of this rather befuddling plurality of movements. Where modernists were concerned with exploring new forms of musical language and structure, or testing the very limits of the "old" ways through relatively violent deconstruction, postmodernism can be seen as a reaction to such ideals by, as it were, pressing reset on that entire field of values and movements, perhaps retaining the juicy bits postmodernists like in the process. One of the most common and persistent post- criticisms of this modernism is that its proponents broke apart the musical language of the culture in a Babel-like fashion, creating problems in intelligibility and cohesion. Personally I find that point rather difficult to argue against, though of course one has to temper it with a certain amount of historical perspective, perspective that we are probably too nearby to adequately gather as yet.

In this respect, minimalism may have been the dominant coherent "postmodern" movement--not that there aren't many other viable trends both inside and outside of such movements, but it was minimalism as a thing in the 1960s and 70s that perhaps most notably stood up and said to the Darmstadt types, "Well, why don't we do this instead," creating a kind of music which took advantage of the modernist conceptions of musical space and process while also directly controverting most other modernist values. Some major past and present figures in this conception of musical postmodernism would include Britten, Messiaen, Berio, Glass, Reich, Pärt, Feldman, Tavener, Golijov, Muhly, O'Regan, Thomas...the list goes on and on.

Polystilism, eclecticism, and a less stalwart regard for the sacredness of unified musical structures have been posited as characteristics of postmodernism according to the prevailing definition. For my part, I'll wait and see.


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## Jeff1

Good article DaddyGeorge : ) Thanks again.

If anybody comes across additional explanations, I will be happy to learn


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## Jeff1

Good article DaddyGeorge : ) Thanks again.

If anybody comes across additional explanations, I will be happy to learn


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## erki

Pretty funny how many 'isms the theorists can come up with. 
It would be good to know why you need to categorise Pärt Tabula Rasa. Specially as postmodernism. I bet it is some kind of school paper you hope us to do it for you.
As far I can see almost anything contemporary can be thrown under postmodern.
You better read this too:
https://www.arvopart.ee/en/arvo-part/article/formal-algorithms-of-tintinnabuli-in-arvo-parts-music/
And then listen Tabula Rasa and analyse.


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## Manxfeeder

To me, his earlier collage pieces, like Collage on Bach, fit more the classic postmodern definition, where you take something out of its original context and place it in an unfamiliar setting to emphasize its uniqueness. I guess by now postmodern is a more plastic term.


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## EdwardBast

The term post-modern seems irrelevant to _Tabula Rasa_ somehow. I'd call it process post-minimalism(?)


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## Jeff1

Manxfeeder said:


> To me, his earlier collage pieces, like Collage on Bach, fit more the classic postmodern definition, where you take something out of its original context and place it in an unfamiliar setting to emphasize its uniqueness. I guess by now postmodern is a more plastic term.


 Thank you Manxfeeder.


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## Jeff1

Thank you EdwardBast .


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## Jeff1

Hello erki,

It is funny indeed though your bet is nothing but wrong.
I have never been to a music school, I am a listener (in the last 2-3 decades mainly JS.Bach).
I have been following the impacts of PM in philosophy, psychoanalysis, politics etc. and quite simply wasn't sure what makes the above categorized as PM (somebody asked me to listen to it).

The link you sent looks interesting.. Thank you for that. I will certainly read it


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## erki

Jeff1 said:


> It is funny indeed though your bet is nothing but wrong.


The more I am surprised why you need to categorise music. It is like putting a name to something that could be thrown into the drawer or file and forget about its uniqueness. Happens a lot with non-classical but also with classical music experts. It is widely occurring situation when person is talking about music he just naming the 'isms - to appear smart.
I am the opposite: I even do not bother to know the exact era of music - yes I kind of know when Mozart was kicking around but I just take the music as is. Without reference. 
Maybe I sound rude but to categorise Pärt is kind of blasphemy for me.


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## Jeff1

I do Not need to categorized music. I have been trying to learn why it has been categorized as PM. And I wrote it pretty clearly


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## erki

All right! Peace!


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