# Money



## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

As this thread has nothing to do with music I'm not sure how people will react to it. Just so we're clear I'm not trying to brag or boast. I come from a rich family and before my health deteriorated I had a good job and was paid well. My other half also earns a lot and we have a very comfortable lifestyle.

Over the past week or two I've spent an awful lot on things for myself and yesterday I got very upset. I had bought a pair of eyebrow tweezers (they cost $60 a pair).

When we got home my other half and I watched a program on television about people who are out of work or cannot work for various reasons. They get so little in "benefits"/social security, the average person looking for a job in the *UK* receives roughly £50 a week to live on.

Having just spent that amount of money on a pair of tweezers I felt guilty and spoiled and I can't get rid of that feeling, hence why I'm making this thread.

I'm aware not everyone on *TC* will be as fortunate as myself but do you ever get that feeling when you've bought something for yourself? I really just want to get this off my chest but I would be grateful for any replies.

*L* x


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I used to spend money on Oxfam until I found Amazon.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

I only spend money to music. 
So i have lots of money saved.


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

Sometimes, as should we all, I wonder how I could better use my money for the benefit of other people - there is no magic solution about how much we should set aside for charity - but I can't say I ever feel guilty for that kind of indulgence because I'm naturally tight with money! If you're living comfortably, just offset your guilt with a bit of generosity! I'm not that well off at all, but last week I gave $100 to medicins sans frontiers; maybe you could do the same.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Well last time i gave money away it was when i heard a violinist(street performer) playing Bach in Helsinki ( i gave him 2€).
It was about 3 months ago.
I lived most of my life in a middle class family but after my mom and dad divorced ( about a year ago) we have been little below normal middle class.
I start to feel guilty if i buy a 0,50€ candy bar, i start to think that instead of giving up for my desires i should have saved the money ( which would have been spent on music)
With music i mean everything music releated Gear, CD's, gig's etc...


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

Mephistopheles said:


> Sometimes, as should we all, I wonder how I could better use my money for the benefit of other people - there is no magic solution about how much we should set aside for charity - but I can't say I ever feel guilty for that kind of indulgence because I'm naturally tight with money! If you're living comfortably, just offset your guilt with a bit of generosity! I'm not that well off at all, but last week I gave $100 to medicins sans frontiers; maybe you could do the same.


Thanks *Mep* I to give to *Médecins Sans Frontières*. I won't say how much it's not important but I still feel bad. I feel bad for those people in the midst of the "Euro Crisis" *Spain*, *Greece* et al. Things are bad in *France* for the poor as well but I feel I don't live in the same *France* as them you know? I've never been to the "rougher" parts of *Paris* or *London* but I imagine life is pretty hard there.


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

Lenfer said:


> Thanks *Mep* I to give to *Médecins Sans Frontières*. I won't say how much it's not important but I still feel bad. I feel bad for those people in the midst of the "Euro Crisis" *Spain*, *Greece* et al. Things are bad in *France* for the poor as well but I feel I don't live in the same *France* as them you know? I've never been to the "rougher" parts of *Paris* or *London* but I imagine life is pretty hard there.


So it's not just a guilt for how you spend your money, but guilt for having privilege in the first place? Obviously, there's not much you can do about that (nothing that isn't radical, anyway), but you should at least be proud that you have the caring and conscience to recognise that you're lucky. So many people in your position feel a sense of entitlement to their privilege, and that poor people deserve their poverty, but you clearly don't think like that and that's a great thing. Just try to channel your guilt in better ways by supporting charities and political parties that will make such people's lives better.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Lenfer said:


> Thanks *Mep* I to give to *Médecins Sans Frontières*. I won't say how much it's not important but I still feel bad. I feel bad for those people in the midst of the "Euro Crisis" *Spain*, *Greece* et al. Things are bad in *France* for the poor as well but I feel I don't live in the same *France* as them you know? I've never been to the "rougher" parts of *Paris* or *London* but I imagine life is pretty hard there.


I was actually going to recommend donating, if you were feeling guilty about money, but you already do so fantastic!!! I also donate to the same company "Doctors Without Borders" it's called in the US, but it's the same group. I work in the medical field so this cause is very important to me, a college professor had told me about this group many years ago.

I understand what you feel, I've felt this way before. I wouldn't say I am "well off" I personally make a good wage, but I'm also the primary wage earner in my family. We have a nice house and I've never had to worry about where my next meal was coming from. I often feel..not exactly guilty so much as helpless when I see some of my patients at the family practice where I work. So many don't have insurance and have trouble affording certain treatments. We offer discounts to such patients, and I always look for community resources to help them, but there's often not enough to go around.


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

There isn't really much to do...The whole system is built in this way...some are rich, some aren't. As long as you earn your money correctly, you can't be responsible for anyone. And be happy that you don't see the whole reality...None of us does.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

I have no money, so I don't get to buy anything. Once in awhile I am able to buy something for myself and I sure as hell do not feel guilty. Rather, I feel quite happy, because it is typically something I've pondered for a long period time and really have a great use for. You honestly shouldn't feel bad about tweezers if you're going to use them quite often. If they serve you at least 10 years than you can look at it as a great investment.

50 pounds to live on really isn't THAT bad. I've lived on far less than that and I'm not mad at you, L'enfer.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Lenfer said:


> ...do you ever get that feeling when you've bought something for yourself?
> *L* x


Nope. I work constantly for every penny I make and it is not at all easy and so if I choose to buy a thousand dollar instrument, it is my right. I've never been rich but I have been very poor so I know quite well what it's like on the 'other side'. Work, work, work or find someone dumb enough to pay for one's life. Either way, it's all just time and space and irrelevant in the end.


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Wealthy people should never feel bad about spending money. It helps the economy when people with money spend it.

It's not like you took the $60 and lit it on fire. You spent it on a retail item and it ends up back in the system.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2012)

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## Guest (Sep 27, 2012)

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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

EricABQ said:


> Wealthy people should never feel bad about spending money. It helps the economy when people with money spend it.
> 
> It's not like you took the $60 and lit it on fire. You spent it on a retail item and it ends up back in the system.


This kind of mentality is what keeps this world in the slavery of consumerism... Time has proved that this is not a viable solution, on the contrary only makes things worsen. Those money are only passing through the same hands all the time, and the hierarchy doesn't suffer significant transformations. There will still be the rich and the poor, both living in this illusion.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that having money is a _good thing_. I buy lottery tickets most every week. I donate to a few specific charities whenever I have discretionary funds to spare (in wintertime I usually don't).

I can't speak from experience, but... L'enfer, I think the best thing you can do with wealth is to enjoy it. If you need an excuse, consider that when you spend money you are putting it back into circulation.


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Renaissance said:


> This kind of mentality is what keeps this world in the slavery of consumerism... Time has proved that this is not a viable solution, on the contrary only makes things worsen. Those money are only passing through the same hands all the time, and the hierarchy doesn't suffer significant transformations. There will still be the rich and the poor, both living in this illusion.


Well, if there is a better alternative I'd like to hear it. The last major alternative to capitalism didn't work out too well if you recall.


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

Thank you all I was feeling rather blue this morning and I still feel a bit  but your messages have lifted my spirits somewhat.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

EricABQ said:


> Well, if there is a better alternative I'd like to hear it. The last major alternative to capitalism didn't work out too well if you recall.


I hear China is doing pretty well... I hear Vietnam is growing at an extraordinary rate and is predicted to overtake many higher countries, etc. etc... You can't just look at these countries and scream, "THEY FAILED!". There is often reasons WHY they failed, sometimes because of poor management and sometimes due to intervention. You have to remember that places that tried to implement non-capitalist systems were often disrupted by outside forces that incited coups and undermined projects. They were also cut off from the rest of the world due these same political struggles. Not to mention, many of these countries were in such rough conditions that no form of economy would have really helped them at the time. They were trying to go from a seed to a tree in a day. This merely wasn't possible, so obviously they failed.


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Cnote11 said:


> I hear China is doing pretty well....


Because they are embracing more aspects of capitalism and less of communism.

And, also, I don't believe they've made any progress as far as doing away with an enormous gap between the wealthy and the poor. I'd much rather be born into poverty in the U.S than in China.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I don't like handling, earning, paying, owing or being owed money. I'm well aware that this is quite abnormal and puts me at a significant disadvantage when it comes to being able to live, but I just hate the stuff. I can't say I feel any guilt for using it, I'd just rather I didn't have to deal with it.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

EricABQ said:


> Because they are embracing more aspects of capitalism and less of communism.
> 
> And, also, I don't believe they've made any progress as far as doing away with an enormous gap between the wealthy and the poor. I'd much rather be born into poverty in the U.S than in China.


That's just it. They are embracing ASPECTS of capitalism. They are not CAPITALISTS. Nor were they ever really communists. Nor were the Soviet Union. The Soviets embraced market socialism, which was a huge disappointment from them, with socialism being the key word there. There are varying factors that rely on the infrastructure and resources of individual countries. You can't paint it with a broad-stroked brush.

As far as whether you would like to be born into the US or China, well that is irrelevant. I will say this though: China obviously is a way bigger country, with a far greater population, which includes a lot of large mountainous and rural regions, which is just now developing and growing. Not only are you undermining the severity of the issue of poverty in the US and the potential trend of poverty within the country, but you're making a rather poor comparison.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

EricABQ said:


> Wealthy people should never feel bad about spending money. It helps the economy when people with money spend it.
> 
> It's not like you took the $60 and lit it on fire. You spent it on a retail item and it ends up back in the system.


Besides, this is a ridiculous notion, at least in the United States. Majority of the wealth is highly concentrated, meaning that majority of it that goes "back into circulation" gets sponged up by the same subset of people who spent it.


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Cnote11 said:


> , but you're making a rather poor comparison.


No, its not a poor comparison. The comment of mine that you responded to was in response to Renaissance, who brought up the divide of rich and poor. You then brought up China, which has a much worse situation as regards the divide of rich and poor than most western nations.

And, yes, the U.S has a poverty problem, every nation does. Not all nations provide the opportunity for people born in poverty to get out of it. I don't believe China provides much, if any, hope.

To say that China is "doing pretty well" is not true if the discussion we are having is about the divide between rich and poor, which was what my original response to Renaissance was about.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

You obviously do not understand and it seems it is almost pointless to explain it any further. I obviously mean "doing pretty well" in terms of growth. Of course China isn't going to adopt a system and suddenly be at the top of the bloody world in a decade. You can't say a system isn't working because of a disparity in class systems when the country is in its infancy. For all you know, China will continue at their projected growth and close that gap and have a large growing middle class as they industrialize their country, and then perhaps one day you'll say, "I'd rather be born into poverty in China than in America". We're talking about economic FORECASTS here. Obviously the United States is going to be better than China in those terms, because they've had MORE TIME TO GROW. It is a rather simple concept. 

I was obviously responding to your "Well, if there is a better alternative let me hear it", with the point being that when you say that you're basically ignoring the fact that several countries are projected to outgrow most capitalist nations. These indeed may be better systems and be an alternative. I'm "letting you hear it" as you asked.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

FYI, we'll have this discussion in 2050. This is the projection for Vietnam to be one of the top countries in the world. I was merely mentioning the possibility of other alternatives which seem to be on the right track and may indeed overtake the traditional capitalist countries.


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Cnote11 said:


> FYI, we'll have this discussion in 2050.


Can't do it, I'll be dead. Or very old. One of the two.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Either way, I'm not attempting to glorify China or Vietnam. Nor am I saying that their economic systems are the best. I'm merely saying, "It remains to be seen." Just keep this in mind, because the economic systems of the world seem to be taking on a slight shift. Only time will tell.


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Cnote11 said:


> Either way, I'm not attempting to glorify China or Vietnam. Nor am I saying that their economic systems are the best. I'm merely saying, "It remains to be seen." Just keep this in mind, because the economic systems of the world seem to be taking on a slight shift. Only time will tell.


Fair enough.

I'd still take the U.S system over any other, but reasonable people can disagree.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Well, I never espoused a preference for any economical system.


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

Just love how you guys got on politics ha. :lol:


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

EricABQ said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I'd still take the U.S system over any other, but reasonable people can disagree.


That's easy enough for you to say because you're sitting pretty inside the bubble. People in other countries (and some even in the US) getting shafted by its wider effects would not be so quick to agree.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Mephistopheles said:


> That's easy enough for you to say because you're sitting pretty inside the bubble. People in other countries (and some even in the US) getting shafted by its wider effects would not be so quick to agree.


Please DO NOT turn this to a Europe Vs America debate. I have seen too many of them on other forums.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

jani said:


> Please DO NOT turn this to a Europe Vs America debate. I have seen too many of them on other forums.


I'm pretty sure the point of his post wasn't "HA MY ECONOMIC SYSTEM IS BETTER THAN YOURS".


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

jani said:


> Please DO NOT turn this to a Europe Vs America debate. I have seen too many of them on other forums.


This has nothing to do with Europe; they (presumably the ones in the West?) are not exempt from creating the same fallout of capitalism.


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

I like having enough money to be generous to others, buy a few things for myself, and have a roof over my head. My actual needs are met and my wants are reasonable and within my budget.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I splurge a bunch of money on CD's often. So I guess I know how you feel. I think we should just abolish the monetary system though, so I'm the wrong person to talk about money with haha.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

I was "rich" until i moved out. Now i have to be careful


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Lenfer said:


> Just love how you guys got on politics ha. :lol:


Perhaps.. But let's please keep this on topic. Political discussions should not be held here.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

^^

Oh, my! I didn't you realize you had become a moderator...congrats and good luck...nothing so far has made me sick enough to encourage me to 'rerail' the thread but it didn't take a genius to see it coming from the very first post...maybe if a certain 'Dr.' were around talking his usual ****. 

And for those of you who do not 'believe' in $...wake up...it ain't santa or the easter bunny...it is what it is and it ain't gonna change by the time you're dead so get to steppin' or prepare to play your instruments on the off-ramp of a major highway.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)




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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

To answer the OP (because I didn't have time before I left this morning): everyone feels that way from time to time. I gross US$740 every two weeks. After taxes, my net deposit is $660. I pay $100 "rent" to my parents out of that and try to plan for about $100 of gas money to get to school and back (doesn't help that "school" means commuting 110 miles round-trip every Tue and Thu). I try to put $50 in my savings account, and monthly expenses (cello rental, Netflix subscription, etc.) leave me with about $300 of planned spending money every two weeks. Therefore, even though I don't actually make a lot of money, I end up spending quite a bit, and sometimes feel guilty about it. I'm not quite sixty-dollar-pair-of-tweezers impulsive, but I am still a very impulsive shopper (today, for example, I hadn't planned on buying Autumn decorations, but spent around $100 on them).


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

kv466 said:


> ^^
> 
> Oh, my! I didn't you realize you had become a moderator...congrats and good luck...nothing so far has made me sick enough to encourage me to 'rerail' the thread but it didn't take a genius to see it coming from the very first post...maybe if a certain 'Dr.' were around talking his usual ****.
> 
> And for those of you who do not 'believe' in $...wake up...it ain't santa or the easter bunny...it is what it is and it ain't gonna change by the time you're dead so get to steppin' or prepare to play your instruments on the off-ramp of a major highway.


I think getting rid of money is quite possible with the advancement of technology. The only reason money exists is because resources are scarce so it is a way of rationing those resources to people that "deserve" it. If essential sources can become relatively limitless, there will be no reason for money any longer. And considering the advancements lately in organ growing, cloning and renewable energy sources, I really don't see it as an impossibility.

And I'd actually beg to differ. Money is like Santa Clause in that we made it up. Money is nothing outside of what we think it is.


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

violadude said:


> I think getting rid of money is quite possible with the advancement of technology. The only reason money exists is because resources are scarce so it is a way of rationing those resources to people that "deserve" it. If essential sources can become relatively limitless, there will be no reason for money any longer. And considering the advancements lately in organ growing, cloning and renewable energy sources, I really don't see it as an impossibility.
> 
> And I'd actually beg to differ. Money is like Santa Clause in that we made it up. Money is nothing outside of what we think it is.


I think kv could be convinced that money is unnecessary hocus pocus, but I'd bet he's right that it's still not going anywhere any time soon - there are too many powerful people interested in screwing us over with it.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

^^

You got me just right there, Tophe. Heck, I'm not a big fan of the stuff myself; I'm an artist and I know exactly where some of ya'll are coming from for I have felt the same. These ideas, however, will not lead to good things unless you know how to live off the land but something tells me that someone who likes a pc so much is probably not ready to hunt, grow and live in Montana up in the hills. 

Whatever you wanna call it, if you want to have what you want and be comfortable in life...you gotta work for it. Either that or you don't have to work because someone in your family has a large supply of,...wait for it...Money.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Mephistopheles said:


> I think kv could be convinced that money is unnecessary hocus pocus, but I'd bet he's right that it's still not going anywhere any time soon - there are too many powerful people interested in screwing us over with it.


I agree that it would take a long time. Maybe it won't happen in my lifetime. I'm just saying that I think it is possible and ultimately desirable.

The hardest things about these extremely large and widespread problems is that they can't be solved with any sort of legislation or election in the right direction. It requires the changing of minds, which is much harder than getting your guy into office.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)




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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I too succumb to impulse buys. Can't say I feel guilty, just really stupid a week later when the novelty is gone.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I have an austere life, I only buy what I need for living and study. I have only a few clothes which I change for new ones only when they become old and spoiled. I'm not "poor", I live in the "wealthy zone" of the city, although in an old house. My family used to be very wealthy, now we are just middle middle class. I don't buy the most cheap thing, but I don't go with luxuries neither. I pay for the quality, in any case.


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## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

You can't take politics out of this discussion
To quote a song by Pink Floyd:
Money : it's a crime
Share it fairly 
but don't take a slice of my pie.

There is no easy answer to this conundrum.

It's good that people have concerns - but that doesn't solve the issues

I don't have the answers, I wish I did.
Like CoAG, in my teens I was a follower of Marx, 
However I soon realised that human greed gets in the way of altruism.
You have to live your life how you see it.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

i'm poor as ****


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm for the most part financially responsible. Thing only things I splurge on are gadgets and Scotch.


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

If I have money (quite rare) I spend it all on books.  

Last time I gave money away was to some guitarist/singer in the street who probably didn't deserve it (he wasn't too good...).


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Lenfer said:


> As this thread has nothing to do with music I'm not sure how people will react to it. Just so we're clear I'm not trying to brag or boast. I come from a rich family and before my health deteriorated I had a good job and was paid well. My other half also earns a lot and we have a very comfortable lifestyle.
> 
> Over the past week or two I've spent an awful lot on things for myself and yesterday I got very upset. I had bought a pair of eyebrow tweezers (they cost $60 a pair).
> 
> ...


@ Lenfer,, Although I don't come from wealthy people, we were always well-off with a roof over our heads and enough to eat. 
Since I've recently retired--and all throughout my working career--I've always tried to "tithe" myself every month by giving 50 or 60 dollars to various animal rights and wounded veterans" organizations. In this way, I can feel less "guilty" about the things I buy for myself, which has lately consisted of mostly music and Keurig K-Cups for my new Keurig brewer.
You impress me as being a very noble and honorable person with a conscience, and I greatly respect and admire you for that.
p.s. Great idea for a new thread; I was just discussing this very issue today with my "better half"


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

samurai said:


> @ Lenfer,, Although I don't come from wealthy people, we were always well-off with a roof over our heads and enough to eat.
> Since I've recently retired--and all throughout my working career--I've always tried to "tithe" myself every month by giving 50 or 60 dollars to various animal rights and wounded veterans" organizations. In this way, I can feel less "guilty" about the things I buy for myself, which has lately consisted of mostly music and Keurig K-Cups for my new Keurig brewer.
> You impress me as being a very noble and honorable person with a conscience, and I greatly respect and admire you for that.
> p.s. Great idea for a new thread; I was just discussing this very issue today with my "better half"


Thank you *Samurai* your kind words mean a lot to me.


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> Perhaps.. But let's please keep this on topic. Political discussions should not be held here.


I was being a tad sarcastic or trying to be perhaps I failed.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Lenfer said:


> I was being a tad sarcastic or trying to be perhaps I failed.


Moderators do not recognize sarcasm. The capability is excised when they are appointed.


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## Hassid (Sep 29, 2012)

I've no money. I'm retired, unemployed and living on a pension. Wife works as a free-secretary for an artist and I help her on that. Can afford to go to restaurants, theatre or cinema. The little money I can spend is on CD copies (from YouTube videos) or books when I find any interesting and cheep. But I don't complain. Live a very quiet and private life, and enjoy my collection formed on other times when I had a good job and make money, and my books.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I'm a college student, what would one expect?

I have great scholarships though, so at least I'm not in debt. But otherwise, all the money I have is stuff I saved up from before college. I don't get allowance anymore, although I have gotten some pay from being in some ensembles at college. Currently having one position, but I've only made 40$ with it so far. That money I'm making I hold as precious, because I want to use it for Christmas gifts.


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

I'm a skinflint !

Yesterday I felt really guilty because I bought for about 70€ of music sheets, but the truth is that they're sheet I'll use to study and teach. I still felt really bad o_o This was partly because they were sheets from Eschig and Lemoine, two editors who are actually more merchants than editors. 17,6€ for the book 3 of the Estudios Sencillos of Brouwer. There is about 5 five minute of music....

I'm saving money for a guitar which suits my needs and projects, so that's in great part the reason why I'm a skinflint, but even without that, I'm not really a compulsive buyer  
I'm telling myself that I could live very comfortably (buying lots of little things) today because I earn money from teaching (about 7 hours a week) and live in my parent's house (so no expenses) but that it probably won't be the case later in my studies, particularly if I want to study in Basel. So I decided to live an austere life - which is actually far from being truly austere.

In my family money is taboo. I live in an upper middle class famlily but my parents have always behaved as if they were very thight on money. So being very careful with money is maybe a part of my education - probably the best part if you ask me.




I don't think you've any reason to feel bad, Lenfer. Being wealthy in itself doesn't make you immoral or a bad person, and you can't blame yourself for being born in a wealthy familly (you actually can't blame yourself for the familly you're born in, period. But everyone know that).


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