# Wolfgang Rihm - Worth exploring?



## Lord Lance

I am hearing Tutuguri I type this and this might be the first modernist work that I've enjoyed thoroughly [Some reviews criticize the overly long 38 minute percussion-heavy Part II - haven't reached there yet and may like it]. (Rite of Spring, Debussy's and Ravel's Piano Works left me unchanged. Not repulsed like say, a composer whose name starts with F...)

Is Rihm a well known composer or obscure? Or is he selectively popular - as in, popular in Germany and Austria, modernist circles and TC but else rarely known performed? Rarely on concert programme lists and very little known to the vast concert going public? The casual attendees, if you will.

Is Tutuguri simply very approachable and has that "likability" factor or is it just me? The dark atmosphere and chaos that runs throughout the work simply fascinates my loin. Also, charting into this completely uncharted territory is a breath of fresh air.

Is Tutuguri, from a musical point of view, streched a bit - at two hours, I would seriosuly doubt if not a _single _minute was excessive; but then again, I don't know if Rihm is a genius on the scale of Glass or a Feldman - beyond its limit? Or is it a masterpeice, through and through?

Finally, knowing that this novite enjoyed a work of the nature that is Tutuguri, which works would you recommend? Should I further explore Rihm -- of particular interest seem his orchestral works, - Symphonies, Deus Passus, Morphonie and Sound Description - his piano works -- or simply other composers in a similar vein?

Let me know! :tiphat:


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## techniquest

Based on what you've said, I'm going to do some exploring too. Will it be worth it? We shall see.


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## Lord Lance

techniquest said:


> Based on what you've said, I'm going to do some exploring too. Will it be worth it? We shall see.


If you want legitimate access to a very large vaults of his recordings, create an account on Beethoven on Demand and go to Rihm's composer page, click on his album list and have access to several of his albums. Lots of them.


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## Morimur

Lord Lance said:


> ...Rite of Spring, Debussy's and Ravel's Piano Works left me unchanged. Not repulsed like say, a composer whose name starts with F...)


Consider me an _Enemy_, Lord Lance!


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## TurnaboutVox

I have been wondering who 'F...' could be all day, Lord Lance!

I have only listened to a few Rihm chamber works, but they seem individual and important works, for what my opinion's worth.


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## brotagonist

Rihm is worth exploring. He's been around for quite a long time and has a _considerable_ catalogue of significant works spanning many decades in more or less every classical genre. I only know his Jagden und Formen, which I recommend, but there are many albums available on numerous significant classical labels.


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## Morimur

TurnaboutVox said:


> I have been wondering who 'F...' could be all day, Lord Lance!


I am guessing he means _Brian Ferneyhough_.


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## Mahlerian

TurnaboutVox said:


> I have been wondering who 'F...' could be all day, Lord Lance!


He means Feldman.

Anyway, Rihm's music is great at times. His main influences include Mahler and Schoenberg: how could I not love him at least a little?


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## Lord Lance

Morimur said:


> I am guessing he means _Brian Ferneyhough_.


Nope. Not heard any of Ferneyhough's works.


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## Lord Lance

Mahlerian said:


> He means Feldman.


You take the F out of fun, Mahlerian.


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## Lord Lance

Mahlerian said:


> Anyway, Rihm's music is great at times. His main influences include Mahler and Schoenberg: how could I not love him at least a little?


"Great" from musical point of view?

Or "great" from a subjective point of view? As in, you found it unremarkable at times?


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## brotagonist

Great is always a loaded word  All kinds of bigwigs have taken up his music. Remarkableness is often a state of mind. Just give it a listen, if it "fascinates your loin."


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## Richannes Wrahms

For what I've heard of, he's definitely not my cup of tea (my ears find his music to be not interesting enough). His name has quite a high reputation if I recall.


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## SimonNZ

Rihm won the most recent Grawemeyer, which is probably the highest - and most consistently reliable and agreed upon - honor any composer can get. You could take _their _word for it and start exploring.

I like most everything I've heard of his to a greater or lesser degree, and can only recommend that you jump in anywhere.

But here's a Guardian guide you might find helpful, with some links at the end:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2012/sep/24/tom-service-guide-wolfgang-rihm


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## dgee

Jagden und Formen is one of the most exciting, energetic and attractive pieces of any era - definitely listen to that one. The main caution is that Rihm is prolific and it's not all good - the Guardian guide Simon posted is very useful


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## brotagonist

The photo is from his opera.

From Service's article:

"Rihm's gigantic musical output - one of the greatest and grandest in terms of sheer quantity of hours of music composed, _of consistent quality_, of massive emotional range, of variety of forces and scales - resists any attempt to reduce its reach to a few handy labels."

I know I'd have a few more albums, if they were less expensive.


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> I am hearing Tutuguri I type this and this might be the first modernist work that I've enjoyed thoroughly [Some reviews criticize the overly long 38 minute percussion-heavy Part II - haven't reached there yet and may like it]. (Rite of Spring, Debussy's and Ravel's Piano Works left me unchanged. Not repulsed like say, a composer whose name starts with F...)
> 
> Is Rihm a well known composer or obscure? Or is he selectively popular - as in, popular in Germany and Austria, modernist circles and TC but else rarely known performed? Rarely on concert programme lists and very little known to the vast concert going public? The casual attendees, if you will.
> 
> Is Tutuguri simply very approachable and has that "likability" factor or is it just me? The dark atmosphere and chaos that runs throughout the work simply fascinates my loin. Also, charting into this completely uncharted territory is a breath of fresh air.
> 
> Is Tutuguri, from a musical point of view, streched a bit - at two hours, I would seriosuly doubt if not a _single _minute was excessive; but then again, I don't know if Rihm is a genius on the scale of Glass or a Feldman - beyond its limit? Or is it a masterpeice, through and through?
> 
> Finally, knowing that this novite enjoyed a work of the nature that is Tutuguri, which works would you recommend? Should I further explore Rihm -- of particular interest seem his orchestral works, - Symphonies, Deus Passus, Morphonie and Sound Description - his piano works -- or simply other composers in a similar vein?
> 
> Let me know! :tiphat:


I thumb my nose at you for your dislike of Feldman ...

Anyways Rihm is awesome and good luck on your research of his works. Time Chant with Mutter on violin is incredible in fact.


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## Lord Lance

Albert7 said:


> I thumb my nose at you for your dislike of Feldman ...
> 
> Anyways Rihm is awesome and good luck on your research of his works. Time Chant with Mutter on violin is incredible in fact.


Haven't heard much of Feldman. If I ever decide for some relative masochistism, I will pop Feldman in. Maybe he won't be so bad. Till then, Rihm, Bruckner, Bernstein, Karajan, Furtwangler, Bruckner, Mahler, Chailly, Asahina and Celibidache occupy my time. But my Lord has been ignored for a while. Perhaps I shall visit some of his Bruckner recordings later. His Bruckner 5 looks promising [DG].


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> Haven't heard much of Feldman. If I ever decide for some relative masochistism, I will pop Feldman in. Maybe he won't be so bad. Till then, Rihm, Bruckner, Bernstein, Karajan, Furtwangler, Bruckner, Mahler, Chailly, Asahina and Celibidache occupy my time. But my Lord has been ignored for a while. Perhaps I shall visit some of his Bruckner recordings later. His Bruckner 5 looks promising [DG].


No clue why you think that Feldman listening is masochistism?  He is one of the most placid experiences possible in life. Of course, you could check out some American minimalist composers such as Reich, Glass, and Adams while you are at it.


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## Pazuzu

My Rihm experience is limited to the acclaimed Jagden Und Formen, and the sensation that it left on me (maybe was intended by the composer) is that there are in it a lot of musical ideas colliding into one another, with an erratic clash of sounds. The instrumentation is amazing (with piano, harp, guitar, brass, woodwinds and strings).
I'll definitely try it one more time, but was a really demanding listening.


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## Lord Lance

Albert7 said:


> No clue why you think that Feldman listening is masochism?  He is one of the most placid experiences possible in life. Of course, you could check out some American minimalist composers such as Reich, Glass, and Adams while you are at it.


Call it being sixteen but placid works only sometimes. Orchestral and chamber music not with abstract experimentations which can sometimes go on for 6.5 hours long~


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## 20centrfuge

His works are many. It can be tough to know where to start. Jagden und Formen didn't do it for me personally, but his lieder are beautiful and for me were a good intro. Check out the album with Claire Lesser, soprano.

Haven't heard Tutuguri but am excited to check it out based on what you've written.


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## Albert7

I really enjoyed his short chamber opera... Jakob Lenz.


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## starthrower

20centrfuge said:


> His works are many. It can be tough to know where to start. Jagden und Formen didn't do it for me personally, but his lieder are beautiful and for me were a good intro. Check out the album with Claire Lesser, soprano.


I'm getting started with his string quartets nos. 3 and 5. I like 'em! I wasn't crazy about Jagden und Formen either. Too frenetic. I like this quality in the quartets, but not in that orchestra piece.

I listened to the 3rd symphony on violadude's recommendation, and I enjoyed it quite a bit.


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## brotagonist

starthrower said:


> I'm getting started with his string quartets nos. 3 and 5. I like 'em! I wasn't crazy about Jagden und Formen either. Too frenetic. I like this quality in the quartets, but not in that orchestra piece.
> 
> I listened to the 3rd symphony on violadude's recommendation, and I enjoyed it quite a bit.


I liked Jagden und Formen. Frenetic is right  I was chuckling and giggling, it was so antsy.

I think I'll try some of the SQs later today, too


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> I'm getting started with his string quartets nos. 3 and 5. I like 'em! I wasn't crazy about Jagden und Formen either. Too frenetic. I like this quality in the quartets, but not in that orchestra piece.
> 
> I listened to the 3rd symphony on violadude's recommendation, and I enjoyed it quite a bit.


I wasn't aware it had been recorded?


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## starthrower

nathanb said:


> I wasn't aware it had been recorded?


The piece I was referring to is Vers Une Symphonie Fleuve III


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> The piece I was referring to is Vers Une Symphonie Fleuve III


Ah ok. That's a good one. As are his first and second symphonies on the same disc 

The third symphony, if we ever hear it, is a choral symphony. It would be nice to hear because I don't think we have anything on this scale from his early period.


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## worov

LIsten to this ! This is wonderful !


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## starthrower

^^^
I'm buying the CD based on Lichtes Spiel. I listened to it once, and it's a highly expressive, and as you stated, wonderful piece!


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## LHB

Most definately YES! Rihm's output is so incredibly varied that you're bound to find something to like.


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## fluteman

The Arditti SQ made a good CD of Rihm's quartets 3, 5 and 8. I see it's still in print, which is good news.


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