# Great Female Characters



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think the greatest female characters (in the operas I've seen, obviously) are Norma, Kundry and Tosca.

Not sure if the Queen of the Night should be on the list; tempted to add Fiordiligi; can't think of any others that are really close. No to the four heroines from Tales of Hoffmann; no to Turandot, Rosina, Lady Macbeth, Desdemona.

Oddly enough, the only great male character I can think of is Hoffmann! Well, perhaps Boccanegra and Fiesco. Oh wait, and Falstaff. Yep, that's all. Almost for sure.

Suggestions?


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Salome is the obvious choice for me. When pulled off well it is a totally mesmerising role.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Talking of Falstaff, what about Mistress Quickly? In the recent ROH production Marie-Nicole Lemieux was absolutely brilliant.

It was broadcast live on big screens so it might be released on DVD.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Great in what way?

I respect (and fear) a female character like Serpina


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

The greatest female character of all time is Antigone - even if the operas about her (Orff, Alburger, Theodorakis) are not well-known.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> Salome is the obvious choice for me. When pulled off well it is a totally mesmerising role.


Haven't tried Salome ... what's her journey? Does she grow, as a character (or diminish, as one?) Oh, but the Marschallin, that might be a good one ...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> Talking of Falstaff, what about Mistress Quickly? In the recent ROH production Marie-Nicole Lemieux was absolutely brilliant.
> 
> It was broadcast live on big screens so it might be released on DVD.


Hmm ... as a great character? Can't say as I recall her character too much - strikes me she's a lot like the Wife of Bath, laughing a lot and going along with anything, no?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Bardamu said:


> Great in what way?
> 
> I respect (and fear) a female character like Serpina


Well, great in whatever way makes sense to you. I mean, I'd like to restrict it to greatness in whatever way makes sense to me, but I doubt I could explain it! Whatever Norma, Kundry and Tosca have in common, great like that, eh?

Don't know Serpina - what's she in and what does she do?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Vesteralen said:


> The greatest female character of all time is Antigone - even if the operas about her (Orff, Alburger, Theodorakis) are not well-known.


Well, so tell us about Antigone ... what's her claim to fame? Seems to me Virginia Woolf used to refer to the play by the same name as THE Antigone, for some reason ...


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Well, so tell us about Antigone ... what's her claim to fame? Seems to me Virginia Woolf used to refer to the play by the same name as THE Antigone, for some reason ...


A woman for whom a sense of duty and conscience superceded any personal desire for comfort, safety or romantic love (though not without natural affection).

Woolf may have referred to Sophocles' play as "THE Antigone", because it is common parlance to do so.

See link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone

(this link lists seven operas based on the play, not including Mendelssohn's incidental music)


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Hmm ... as a great character? Can't say as I recall her character too much - strikes me she's a lot like the Wife of Bath, laughing a lot and going along with anything, no?


She has to con Falstaff into thinking both Meg and Alice are hopelessly in love with him.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Minnie in La Fanciulla del West and Fidelio spring immediately to mind. Cassandra in Les Troyens - after all she was right, and would not be silenced or enslaved. Dido in Dido and aeneas.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Well, great in whatever way makes sense to you. I mean, I'd like to restrict it to greatness in whatever way makes sense to me, but I doubt I could explain it! Whatever Norma, Kundry and Tosca have in common, great like that, eh?
> 
> Don't know Serpina - what's she in and what does she do?


Serpina is the protagonist in La serva padrona, an opera buffa by Pergolesi.
Short, fun and with great music if you are in mood of listen to it:





I see (on wiki) the Opera is known in english as The Servant Turned Mistress, the title in italian could means "the Servant who is already Mistress".
Serpina is the young servant of the aging unmarried Uberto however , as the title suggest, since the beginning is clear that she is used to bully the rich man and impose her will to him.
Uberto tired of this situation think to marry a woman so he can rid of her but Serpina trick him instead and become his wife.
The cunning and manipulative nature of Serpina , much better than other counterparts in Il Barbiere or Falstaff, is why I like her.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

What do you mean no Lady MacBeth.....

Oh well a few more I like Abigaille (Nabucco) Violetta (Traviatta), Leonora (Trovatore), Anna Bolena.....all Callas of course, dramatic Italian Bel Canto with great cabaletta showpieces


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## Morgante (Jul 26, 2012)

Turandot.

Turandot.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Haven't tried Salome ... what's her journey? Does she grow, as a character (or diminish, as one?) Oh, but the Marschallin, that might be a good one ...


She doesn't really grow, but others, heh, get cut short ...


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

The most innocent: Cio-Cio San (alternative: Santuzza)

The most romantic: Tatiana 

The politician: Marina Mniszech 

The most tricky: Mistress Quickly (hehe...:lol

and the most seductive, oh yeah, Salome :devil:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Il_Penseroso said:


> and the most seductive, oh yeah, Salome :devil:


I'd say she's about as seductive as a female praying mantis.










(That's the male being eaten after mating, BTW)


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Vesteralen said:


> this link lists seven operas based on the play


Hmm ... seems neither you nor I have seen or heard any of these operas, nor are we likely to soon. Not exactly a DISqualification, but not a very strong recommendation. Seems odd that Gluck didn't do anything with it - he was awfully good at the classics.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> She has to con Falstaff into thinking both Meg and Alice are hopelessly in love with him.


Woah Annie that was GREAT! lol and you know I've been feeling bad I haven't been able to find a video Falstaff I really like. Marta Szirmay was really something!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Minnie in La Fanciulla del West and Fidelio spring immediately to mind. Cassandra in Les Troyens - after all she was right, and would not be silenced or enslaved. Dido in Dido and aeneas.


Minnie's a great character, you're right. Not sure personally about Fidelio - she seems a bit one-dimensional to me, though Mattila did an awfully good job with the character. Haven't seen Les Troyens or Dido and Aeneas yet, so we'll see!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Bardamu said:


> Uberto tired of this situation think to marry a woman so he can rid of her but Serpina trick him instead and become his wife. The cunning and manipulative nature of Serpina , much better than other counterparts in Il Barbiere or Falstaff, is why I like her.


Sounds like a lot of fun! I look forward to it, thanks so much for the suggestion!


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Hmm ... seems neither you nor I have seen or heard any of these operas, nor are we likely to soon. Not exactly a DISqualification, but not a very strong recommendation. Seems odd that Gluck didn't do anything with it - he was awfully good at the classics.


I have heard the Orff version, but I have such personal views of this character, it's going to be hard for a composer to satisfy me. He didn't.

I've heard excerpts from the Theodorakis version. I wasn't bowled over, but I'm still considering forking out the money for a recording of this.

I'm still hoping for this story to be made into something in a visual/aural medium that really works. (The Irene Pappas movie of it was good, but she was way too old to play the part. Antigone was probably no older than in her mid-teens. If somebody made an opera featuring a soprano part calling for a very young-sounding voice it would be perfect.)


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> What do you mean no Lady MacBeth.....
> 
> Oh well a few more I like Abigaille (Nabucco) Violetta (Traviatta), Leonora (Trovatore), Anna Bolena.....all Callas of course, dramatic Italian Bel Canto with great cabaletta showpieces


Sorry! To me, Lady Macbeth is like atmosphere. Unrelentingly pushing her guy to get ahead and then killing herself when it starts to go bad. There's just not much character there. Violetta is to me too much the frat boy fantasy, and Leonora too much just a plot device. I guess to me greatness means enough character so you can believe they're real, you can see them making choices as best they can like we all do (not that real Lady Macbeths don't exist, but they're not great characters either in real life or on the stage).


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Morgante said:


> Turandot.
> 
> Turandot.


Ack! But Turandot (whispering)_ is insane_.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Il_Penseroso said:


> The most innocent: Cio-Cio San (alternative: Santuzza)
> 
> The most romantic: Tatiana
> 
> ...


Tatiana is a good one. She grows, as a character, definitely has some complexity. Marina Mniszech - is that from Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I like _Susanna_ in Figaro. She's sharp & witty.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Tatiana is a good one. She grows, as a character, definitely has some complexity


Oooh yes I like Tatiana.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I'd say she's about as seductive as a female praying mantis.
> 
> (That's the male being eaten after mating, BTW)






... not an image calculated to arouse lol


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Vesteralen said:


> I'm still hoping for this story to be made into something in a visual/aural medium that really works. (The Irene Pappas movie of it was good, but she was way too old to play the part. Antigone was probably no older than in her mid-teens. If somebody made an opera featuring a soprano part calling for a very young-sounding voice it would be perfect.)


At times like these wouldn't it be so nice to be a great opera composer? You could just do it yourself ...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> I like _Susanna_ in Figaro. She's sharp & witty.


Well i LIKE Susanna - how can you not - but is she a GREAT CHARACTER? I don't know. Everyone in that opera takes the whole "Is the Boss Going to Rape Susanna" thing so unremarkingly that it's hard for me to see past it. There's no one in it except Cherubino that strikes me as real at all. Well, and Basilio.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> Well i LIKE Susanna - how can you not - but is she a GREAT CHARACTER? I don't know. Everyone in that opera takes the whole "Is the Boss Going to Rape Susanna" thing so unremarkingly that it's hard for me to see past it. There's no one in it except Cherubino that strikes me as real at all. Well, and Basilio.


Funny. I find them all a lot more real than most of the characters in a lot of later italian opera. They plot, they get cross, they have fun, they chat, they get confused, and most importantly, they NEVER threaten to kill themselves due to thwarted love.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Funny. I find them all a lot more real than most of the characters in a lot of later italian opera. They plot, they get cross, they have fun, they chat, they get confused, and most importantly, they NEVER threaten to kill themselves due to thwarted love.


Well, yes ...


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

Great but very very sad one:

Gilda, daughter of Rigoletto.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

powerbooks said:


> Great but very very sad one:
> 
> Gilda, daughter of Rigoletto.


Is Gilda the dramatic focus, for you? Or is Rigoletto's tragedy the main dramatic thing? I haven't yet really enjoyed Rigoletto. It's so unrelentingly bleak.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I think I would characterize Elisabetta di Valois as a strong woman. She and Rodrigo seem to be the only two characters in _Don_ _Carlo_ who consistently behave with dignity. Her rebuke to the King when she sings that beautiful farewell to the Comtesse d'Aremberg is an extremely effective response to his insult. Even if he misbehaves, she won't.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

MAuer said:


> I think I would characterize Elisabetta di Valois as a strong woman. She and Rodrigo seem to be the only two characters in _Don_ _Carlo_ who consistently behave with dignity. Her rebuke to the King when she sings that beautiful farewell to the Comtesse d'Aremberg is an extremely effective response to his insult. Even if he misbehaves, she won't.


Wow - good one. I don't know why she didn't occur to me earlier. That is a great scene. And her persistence on principle throughout the events, in spite of obvious and understandable temptation. Yeah.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> Is Gilda the dramatic focus, for you? Or is Rigoletto's tragedy the main dramatic thing? I haven't yet really enjoyed Rigoletto. It's so unrelentingly bleak.


Rigoletto was an opera I watched many times when I was first getting into opera, mainly due to the wonderful production at ENO set in 50s little Italy; I probably went about 4 times. But now I'm really with you, I just find it very bleak, there is not one sympathetic character and the plot is SOOO depressing.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

MAuer said:


> I think I would characterize Elisabetta di Valois as a strong woman. She and Rodrigo seem to be the only two characters in _Don_ _Carlo_ who consistently behave with dignity. Her rebuke to the King when she sings that beautiful farewell to the Comtesse d'Aremberg is an extremely effective response to his insult. Even if he misbehaves, she won't.


But Eboli's music is so much more awesome.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Rigoletto was an opera I watched many times when I was first getting into opera, mainly due to the wonderful production at ENO set in 50s little Italy; I probably went about 4 times. But now I'm really with you, I just find it very bleak, there is not one sympathetic character and the plot is SOOO depressing.


I know, right? Some of the music almost makes up for it - Joseph Calleja did the Duke at the Met and almost singlehandedly redeemed their pretty worn production - but it's tough to try to sympathize with any of the characters.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Aksel said:


> But Eboli's music is so much more awesome.


Right, but nobody can SING it. Well, I do love d'Intino's Eboli, on the Pavarotti version with Daniela Dessi - I thought she nailed it - but almost nobody can sing it. Obraztsova raised the hair on the back of my neck with her part in the garden party scene, but the veil song? eh.


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## Liss (May 13, 2011)

I've always liked Rossini's Armida


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Liss said:


> I've always liked Rossini's Armida


Oh yeah, that's a good one. Halfway through, though, I had a sudden fantasy about an opera in which Amor accidentally slips and falls on one of her own arrows, falls in love with her hamster, and suddenly realizes that all her life she's been working for hell, not heaven! She takes up drinking copiously and moves to Bali ...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> Oh yeah, that's a good one. Halfway through, though, I had a sudden fantasy about an opera in which Amor accidentally slips and falls on one of her own arrows, falls in love with her hamster, and suddenly realizes that all her life she's been working for hell, not heaven! She takes up drinking copiously and moves to Bali ...


You do have a rich inner life, Greg:lol:.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

I really like Jenufa and Katya from the Janacek operas. Whilst Puccini always created tragic female characters (well mostly) i feel more sympathy for the Janacek characters. Jenufa and Katya are both trapped in a loveless relationship with pressure from an overbearing Mother character. They both seem to be longing for something better. I feel that these characters are very relevant to todays world. Add to that the beauty of Janaceks score and you really have arguably one of the greatest composers - or at least my favourite!


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Right, but nobody can SING it. Well, I do love d'Intino's Eboli, on the Pavarotti version with Daniela Dessi - I thought she nailed it - but almost nobody can sing it. Obraztsova raised the hair on the back of my neck with her part in the garden party scene, but the veil song? eh.


Shirley Verrett. Or Agnes Baltsa. Verrett's veil song is amazingness.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Tatiana is a good one. She grows, as a character, definitely has some complexity. Marina Mniszech - is that from Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk?


Yes, you're right about Tatiana, but I like such kind of complexity in women ! Makes me like (love  ) them ! 

Marina Mniszech is from Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov (based on a real historical figure).


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I'd say she's about as seductive as a female praying mantis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking at this beardsley's sketch for Salome, I'd get your word !!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Il_Penseroso said:


> Looking at this beardsley's sketch for Salome, I'd get your word !!


That is a seriously creepy resemblance.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yashin said:


> I really like Jenufa and Katya from the Janacek operas. Whilst Puccini always created tragic female characters (well mostly) i feel more sympathy for the Janacek characters. Jenufa and Katya are both trapped in a loveless relationship with pressure from an overbearing Mother character. They both seem to be longing for something better. I feel that these characters are very relevant to todays world. Add to that the beauty of Janaceks score and you really have arguably one of the greatest composers - or at least my favourite!


Ah, Janacek - I dunno. I have some work to do, to appreciate any of his operas. Well, I'm making progress with Wagner, there's hope for Janacek ...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Shirley Verrett. Or Agnes Baltsa. Verrett's veil song is amazingness.


Yeah, I dunno. I've heard those, and wasn't blown away. Well, everyone hears things differently. I read once that the only one who could really sing it was Marilyn Horne, bought the CD, and found it leathery. Who knows.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Il_Penseroso said:


> Yes, you're right about Tatiana, but I like such kind of complexity in women ! Makes me like (love  ) them !
> 
> Marina Mniszech is from Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov (based on a real historical figure).


Oh right, the Polish countess who funds the Pretender's try for the throne. Not much depth to her though. Kind of a stock figure, at least in the libretto.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Azucena. I still love Dolora Zajick's version best. When she takes the knife and rips off Manrico's bandage with it? Oh yeah.


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## Pamina (Sep 5, 2012)

I totally second Norma, Tosca and Salome. The above poster beat me to one of my suggestions: Azucena. She is the fulcrum of the plot and as such has the ability to make or break a Trovatore. I would add Brunnhilde to the list of great female characters. She grows and changes so much in the Ring. Violetta gets my vote as well. A woman who truly understands what love is.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Pamina said:


> I totally second Norma, Tosca and Salome. The above poster beat me to one of my suggestions: Azucena. She is the fulcrum of the plot and as such has the ability to make or break a Trovatore. I would add Brunnhilde to the list of great female characters. She grows and changes so much in the Ring. Violetta gets my vote as well. A woman who truly understands what love is.


Brunnhilde sure; haven't seen the opera, but I don't doubt she's a great character. Violetta, I don't know. It came as quite a shock to me to learn how seriously Verdi intended that opera to be taken. I think you're right in that he intended Violetta to be a great character; whether that character greatness still holds up is a different question. It is a great OPERA, I'm pretty sure!!


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