# Beethoven’s “Big Three”



## mahlernerd (Jan 19, 2020)

Which of Beethoven’s “big three” symphonies is your favorite. These symphonies are generally accepted as the three greatest symphonies of Beethoven, and more often than not, you will see these symphonies at the very top of most symphony lists/rankings. So, which of them is your favorite and why?

For me, it’s the Eroica. It has a lot of sentimental value to me. It is the first piece of music (not just classical) that I ever fell in love with, and was also the first work that I have ever heard performed live at an orchestra concert.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

I just really gotten into Eroica in the past month or so and really love it. That said, the 5th has been my favorite classical work for over 30 years.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

The _Ninth_ in the Toscanini recording from 1952 is my favorite symphony of all times and I voted for it.


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## DaddyGeorge (Mar 16, 2020)

I voted for #3, but I could easily choose #5 or #9. For me, it's a bit like throwing a dice.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

The 9th has singing, so I chose it. :lol:


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

9 and 3 are my first and third favorite of his symphonies with the Pastoral in between. I think the 5th is a bit overrated though I rank it fourth.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

9t then 3rd then 5th.


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## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

Ninth....for sure.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

The Eroica symphony (especially the first movement) symbolizes to me everything good about Beethoven, his early beliefs in the Enlightenment, idealism of what a hero should be like. I can picture in my mind the portrait of the 30-year old Beethoven, who was (supposedly) full youthful energy and spirit, eager to try his new ideas at every opportunity. This was the "birth" of several things, a new era, Beethoven's own mature voice, etc.

But the Funeral March signifies his own "death" as a composer. This was the point when Beethoven realized, with his increasing deafness, he couldn't compose _properly_ any more. After this point, he became decadent and deluded, saying things like "In a symphony, there's too much music without singing", "in a fugue, there's too much strict-style counterpoint", "symphonies should be played at battles", terrible ideas that eventually led him to create pure monstrosity like "Gross Fugue".

I'm just joking of course. I consider Grosse Fuge a remarkable piece of art.


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## caracalla (Feb 19, 2020)

5th for me. It has a bad case of Mona Lisa syndrome, but that's not its fault and sometimes it manages to break free. That certainly happened when Kleiber's version emerged and forced everyone to listen to the thing with fresh ears.

Next tier, I have 3,6,7 & 9 all pretty much equal. Astonishing to think 5 & 6 were introduced to the world at the same concert.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

DaddyGeorge said:


> I voted for #3, but I could easily choose #5 or #9. For me, it's a bit like throwing a dice.


I agree and I cannot think of any other composer who has such a tight list. And this is without 6 or 7 symphony, a favorite of many.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I think Mozart's 40th is a masterpiece compared to the 5th. I rank some of these symphonies like:

6 > 3 >> Mozart 40 >> 9 > 5


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Voted for 3rd...…

my favourites however are 4,6,7,8,2 and 1.

Not trying to be awkward or attempting to be funny but......


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

(6) > 5 > 3 >>> 9..........


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Hofrath Kueffner told him (Krenn) that he once lived with Beethoven in Heiligenstadt, and that they were in the habit evenings of going down to Nussdorf to eat a fish supper in the Gasthaus 'Zur Rose'. One evening when B. was in a good humor, Kueffner began: `Tell me frankly which is your favorite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humor) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.' "


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It’s a very difficult choice as the three symphonies are all revolutionary in their own way. I love all three


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

hammeredklavier said:


> This was the point when Beethoven realized, with his increasing deafness, he couldn't compose _properly_ any more.


Beethoven *realized* this? Really? What's your citation?

The 5th and 9th symphonies are improperly composed symphonies? Whilst I have some reservations about the 9th, how can it be described as not proper?


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Of these three, whichever of the 5th or the 3rd suits my mood better that particular day. Voted 5th here because as luck would have it I listened to Kleiber's white-hot recording just last night.

If I were nominating my top three the 9th would be nowhere near the list. I admire the piece but I've never developed a love for it. The 7th would complete my personal favourite trio.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Of these three, whichever of the 5th or the 3rd suits my mood better that particular day. Voted 5th here because as luck would have it I listened to Kleiber's white-hot recording just last night.
> 
> If I were nominating my top three the 9th would be nowhere near the list. I admire the piece but I've never developed a love for it. The 7th would complete my personal favourite trio.


This is close to the way I feel about it. The third is so fantastic as well, but I just recently bought Kleiber's recording of the 5th and it is so dang good it just keeps the 5th up there as my lifelong favorite work.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Ethereality said:


> I think Mozart's 40th is a masterpiece compared to the 5th. I rank some of these symphonies like:
> 
> 6 > 3 >> Mozart 40 >> 9 > 5


For me today it would be:

9th > 5th ~ 6th > 7th ~ 3rd > Mozart 40th > 4th > 2nd > 1st.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

The 3rd is THE standard for Symphonies. It's often heralded as the BEST SYMPHONY OF ALL TIME.

Funny though; if he hadn't written the 3rd, scholars would probably be calling the 9th the Best Symphony of All Time.

And if he hadn't written either the 3rd OR the 9th they'd probably be calling the 5th the Best Symphony of All Time.


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## The3Bs (Apr 1, 2020)

Today it is the 3rd for me....


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> But the Funeral March signifies his own "death" as a composer. This was the point when Beethoven realized, with his increasing deafness, he couldn't compose _properly_ any more.


Please cite a reference for this. Or perhaps you can read the minds of the long-since dead?



hammeredklavier said:


> After this point, he became decadent and deluded, saying things like "In a symphony, there's too much music without singing", "in a fugue, there's too much strict-style counterpoint", "symphonies should be played at battles"...


Again, I infer that since you're citing these as quotes, you have reliable references for them. Please post them.



hammeredklavier said:


> ...terrible ideas that eventually led him to create pure monstrosity like "Gross Fugue".


Well, yes, of course. The historical development of the string quartet surely ceased in 1791. After all, your idol had already created perfection in that genre, right?

Your narrow-mindedness is really something to behold.


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

I love all three, but I think I have to give it to the Ninth today, for sheer ambition if nothing else. Ask again tomorrow and you'll more than likely get a different answer.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Love all three but went for no 5. Not because of famous 1st movement, because love the transition between third and final movement. The final movement is so beautiful, makes me emotional even though it's not not meant to


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

KenOC said:


> "Hofrath Kueffner told him (Krenn) that he once lived with Beethoven in Heiligenstadt, and that they were in the habit evenings of going down to Nussdorf to eat a fish supper in the Gasthaus 'Zur Rose'. One evening when B. was in a good humor, Kueffner began: `Tell me frankly which is your favorite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humor) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.' "


Which tells us what Beethoven thought (though he did not yet know the 9th!, or the 7th and 8th, and possibly not even the 6th), but says squat about what KenOC thinks.

Beethoven's Third has never been my favorite symphony, but it remains the one I have greatest respect for and a tremendous amount of awe about. It is indeed revolutionary and changes the direction of music in the early 19th century.

I do love the Scherzo of the Third, and always have, since my first hearing of the work. I've long cherished the vigorous final movement and the sobering Funeral March. And the first movement seems to me the most strikingly strange opening movement until at least Tchaikovsky's Fourth. As I write this I realize I admire the separate movements of the Third as individual works of art in some way moreso than I like the entire piece as a unity, which is only to say in terms of listening to the Third from start to finish. I still view this symphony as a revolutionary work, a great work, perhaps Beethoven's greatest work -- which is saying a lot -- but I have also, over the years, listened to it more via its individual movements (yesterday the Scherzo, two weeks ago the Marche Funebre…) than in a unit. Perhaps the length of it has something to do with that. (I can't recall when I last listened to the Tchaikovsky 4th from beginning to end, either.)

The Poll should probably ask simply "What is your favorite Beethoven Symphony." Why single out three, any three? One's answer for the one question would be the same for the other question, would it not? If your favorite symphony is among 3,5,or9, then your answer to which of the nine do you favor most would prove a duplicate answer. If your favorite Beethoven symphony is not one of those three, why is it important to voice an opinion on those three. Why not ask as well: Which is your favorite symphony: Ries's Third, Spohr's Fifth, or Langgaard's Ninth?

And so … I'll join KenOC on this one and give you squat for an answer. (I will say, I do wish I knew what Beethoven would have said at the end of his life about the ranking of his symphonies in terms of favoritism. Just out of curiosity. The whole idea of such knowledge is rather meaningless in any meaningful way, anyhow, and shouldn't change my or KenOC's opinion on the issue.)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Judith said:


> Love all three but went for no 5. Not because of famous 1st movement, because love the transition between third and final movement. The final movement is so beautiful, makes me emotional even though it's not not meant to


Not meant to? .


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

th


Art Rock said:


> (6) > 5 > 3 >>> 9..........


You could have beethoven symphony no. 9 unfinished, just leave off the last movement, or the part leading to the baritone. Then how would the 9th stack up? Or edit the final last movement finish to the beginning of the rambling beginning of the movement and presto, your solution to the how it should end! There are days I just only listen to the movements only as I am not wanting to hear the whole thing.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

The third is the only one on that group I'd put in a "top three". My top three are the 3rd, 6th and 7th. Well, overall 3rd-6th-7th-8th-4th-9th-5th-2nd-1st. The 9th fell a little on my horizon once I became acquainted with the Missa solemnis. The 5th has simply been overplayed. The 6th almost as much, but still.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Without hesitations and doubts I have chosen the 9th. He finished with it at 1924, only three years before his death. A work composed under extrem adversaries, which in my eyes symbolizes the victory over the pain, the depression and the death. With this work, Beethoven surpasses for ever the human standards and enters in the Parnassus of the greatest composers, alongside with Apollon himself. It isn't a coincidence that this work is the Hymn of EU and the most played work in the history of music. For me (personal opinion) this symphony and the 9th of Bruckner, are the best ever composed, followed by Mahler's 5th, Tchaikovsky's 5th and Scriabin's 1st. Despite the super high level of the other four symphonies, the distance between them and the 9th is chaotic in every comparison made by experts. (not by me. Beethoven's and Anton's 9th are very similar in quality to my ears) I' writing this extra information to make clear that also other Beethoven's Symphonies (mostly for me the 7th) could be candidate for the top position and such questions could be answered very relatively. Nice pole this one.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Hmmm..actually, for me, it's Big 4...#7 gets in there....

Performance-wise, for me - 
I've played #5 the most times, then 
#7...
#3 and #9 about the same number of times - lots....but not as many as 5, 7.

Which is my favorite?? depends on what day of the week it is, and the mood I might be in....


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

consuono said:


> The third is the only one on that group I'd put in a "top three". My top three are the 3rd, 6th and 7th. Well, overall 3rd-6th-7th-8th-4th-9th-5th-2nd-1st. The 9th fell a little on my horizon once I became acquainted with the Missa solemnis. The 5th has simply been overplayed. The 6th almost as much, but still.


Pretty much agree, although I wouldn't say the reason the 5th isn't as good is because it's overplayed. The reason it's not as good to me is because it's pretty simplistic to begin with. It wins the popularity vote, but I don't see it beating the 6th or 3rd in quality, or even Mozart's 40th.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Ethereality said:


> Pretty much agree, although I wouldn't say the reason the 5th isn't as good is because it's overplayed. *The reason it's not as good to me is because it's pretty simplistic to begin with*. It wins the popularity vote, but I don't see it beating the 6th or 3rd in quality, or even Mozart's 40th. And Beethoven's 6th is like quintessential Tier 1 music to me.


It's not "simplistic" at all. It has beautiful counterpoint (including the famous fugal passage in the trio of the third movement), it has intense dynamic contrasts, it makes a brilliant and exploratory use of instrumentation (particularly in the second movement, also remarkable for being in double variation form). It is the first symphony to use trombones. There are sophisticated links in thematic material occuring throughout the entire symphony, and there's the famous quote of the scherzo in the finale (first time in a symphony). The formal display of the fifth, giving great weight to the final movement (atypically linked to the third) is also remarkable. Other than that, it may be one of the most important examples of a work of the classical period using the *golden ratio*.

Overplayed maybe, and no one has to like it, but simplistic Beethoven's fifth symphony is not.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allerius said:


> there's the famous quote of the scherzo in the finale (first time in a symphony).


Yes, that is interesting, but I'll also suggest everyone to take a look at this particular case in the minuet and finale of Mozart 41th symphony if they haven't already.



Allerius said:


> Other than that, it may be one of the most important examples of a work of the classical period using the *golden ratio*.


Interestingly, some speculate that Mozart's sonatas _generally_ tend toward this "golden ratio" of 0.618. (I'm just saying this, as a fun fact)
For example, Mozart's piano sonatas:
E = number of measures in the exposition
D = number of measures in the development+recapitulation
No. 1, K.279 1st movement { E = 38 | D = 62 }
E/(D+E) = 0.620
No. 16, K.570 1st movement { E = 79 | D = 130 }
E/(D+E) = 0.622
No. 7, K.309 1st movement { E = 59 | D = 97 }
E/(D+E) = 0.622 
No. 15, K.545 1st movement { E = 28 | D = 45 }
E/(D+E) = 0.616
No. 10, K.330 1st movement { E = 57 | D = 92 }
E/(D+E) = 0.617
No. 2, K.280 1st movement { E = 52 | D = 88 }
E/(D+E) = 0.611


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Allerius said:


> It's not "simplistic" at all. It has beautiful counterpoint (including the famous fugal passage in the trio of the third movement), it has intense dynamic contrasts, it makes a brilliant and exploratory use of instrumentation (particularly in the second movement, also remarkable for being in double variation form). It is the first symphony to use trombones. There are sophisticated links in thematic material occuring throughout the entire symphony, and there's the famous quote of the scherzo in the finale (first time in a symphony). The formal display of the fifth, giving great weight to the final movement (atypically linked to the third) is also remarkable. Other than that, it may be one of the most important examples of a work of the classical period using the *golden ratio*.
> 
> Overplayed maybe, and no one has to like it, but simplistic Beethoven's fifth symphony is not.


While that may be so, it still sounds quite simplistic to me. This is perhaps the most famous work of Beethoven's, yet to me he has done so much better. One aspect I do like about the 5th however is the sole focus on thematic sequence. It achieves an efficient balance and length without wasting notes and time.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't have a favorite of these three, and I certainly wouldn't presume to say which of them is "best." The "Eroica" retains its nobility, its unprecedented scope, and its revolutionary power, the 5th is astonishing for its concision, unity and and dramatic force, the 9th is overwhelming and sublimely crazy as the late quartets are sublimely crazy - and the "Pastoral" is a vision of heaven on earth and shouldn't be omitted from the Big Four. And then there's that 7th... I _would_ presume to say that they all sit comfortably on the summit of Symphony Mountain, and they don't have a lot of company, though there are many great works on the ledge just below them.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> While that may be so, it still sounds quite simplistic to me. This is perhaps the most famous work of Beethoven's, yet to me he has done so much better. One aspect I do like about the 5th however is the sole focus on thematic sequence. It achieves an efficient balance and length without wasting notes and time.


Seems to me you are comparing the 5th as it should be another kind of symphony. To me, it is the most perfect symphony he wrote and I accept it as is. It is a work like so many others that you know no one could even imagine such a work unless it was LVB, nuff said.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Bigbang said:


> It is a work like so many others that you know no one could even imagine such a work unless it was LVB, nuff said.


What's apparent to me is no one seems to try. It always goes in some, more untamed direction. I have an easier time picturing another symphony no.5 than say a 3 or 6. But it's because the structure of the 5th is laid out very apparently. What's more apparent in symphony 3 and 6, is his motifs don't make any sense, yet he paints them in a way to show that they do. His goal was to expand the central purpose of the orchestra to give meaning to the underlying composition. A marriage between classicism and atmosphere. It was much more of a feat, in my eyes, but required both parts. The first movement of symphony 5 is made up of a couple catchy standalone motifs with some modulations in between. It's an easier structure to follow because the melodies don't demand much variation nor progression. You're not working with advanced complexity, but you need to have a solid craft. Beethoven wasn't reaching far and wide for an inspirational journey this time; he had an excellent grounds for motif to implant. If Beethoven is the only one who desires to write such a work, then in that case I give him loads of props. Never doubted that. It would take anyone else much more patience, as you're numbing your own (ugly) self-expression for the better good.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

I voted the Ninth Symphony because it reaffirms humanity for me in times when I feel like I no longer have any reason to believe in humanity and just listening to the last movement is enough to make me want to cry. And for me, there is no greater power in music than to do exactly that.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> What's apparent to me is no one seems to try. It always goes in some, more untamed direction. I have an easier time picturing another symphony no.5 than say a 3 or 6. But it's because the structure of the 5th is laid out very apparently. What's more apparent in symphony 3 and 6, is his motifs don't make any sense, yet he paints them in a way to show that they do. His goal was to expand the central purpose of the orchestra to give meaning to the underlying composition. A marriage between classicism and atmosphere. It was much more of a feat, in my eyes, but required both parts. The first movement of symphony 5 is made up of a couple catchy standalone motifs with some modulations in between. It's an easier structure to follow because the melodies don't demand much variation nor progression. You're not working with advanced complexity, but you need to have a solid craft. Beethoven wasn't reaching far and wide for an inspirational journey this time; he had an excellent grounds for motif to implant. If Beethoven is the only one who desires to write such a work, then in that case I give him loads of props. Never doubted that. It would take anyone else much more patience, as you're numbing your own (ugly) self-expression for the better good.


I know Beethoven admired Handel as a composer who could achieve much effects with little means. I have heard this about Beethoven in a number of works or passages (diabelli variations--some claim greatest piano work) but I am still not sure of your point? I am guessing you are not a fan of the work as some other symphonies. The thing is Beethoven was always the revolutionary, and was composing in his time period. Obviously he was not thinking about how the music would sound on cd, and how it would be compared to all the other music of the future. I guess my point is I do not get involved in detailed analysis on stuff like this but I am wondering if you have read any analysis of symphony of no 5 as you put it? I have always read positive comments about this symphony. And, to me, this is a symphony for special occasions, like the 9th, can wear you down with too much repeated listening though that would be variable for everyone.


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

Air said:


> I voted the Ninth Symphony because it reaffirms humanity for me in times when I feel like I no longer have any reason to believe in humanity and just listening to the last movement is enough to make me want to cry. And for me, there is no greater power in music than to do exactly that.


To break the inner walls just by beauty.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

I voted for the 5th out of those three, but what about the 7th? That would be my first choice out of the nine. Not for any technical musical reasons: just because however often I listen to it, it fully engages my attention and leaves me feeling a little better about life.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I voted for the 3rd. Taking into account the average length of a symphony at that time could anyone else have managed one this long without making it sound rambling or repetitive? Each time I listen to the 3rd it seems a much shorter listen than it actually is - all killer, no filler.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

My appreciation for Beethoven’s symphonies highly depends on performances. The only set I listened to for a while when I was starting out was Harnoncourt, and I was like “meh, kinda boring.” Then I heard the old masters like Furtwangler, Toscanini and Klemperer and top-notch cycles like Blomstedt/Dresden and Kletzki/Czech Phil, and it was like rediscovering Beethoven for the first time. I need this music to have weight, trajectory, and musicianship that makes something meaningful out of every phrase! Yesterday I listened to Scherchen’s Eroica which came in second on Trout’s recommended recording list. That’s an example of the kind of performance that turns me off Beethoven. If the scrappy orchestra can’t play that fast without making egregious mistakes every minute, why play it that fast? I know some people say their opinion isn’t changed by performances, but I don’t see how you couldn’t have at least some sort of differing sensation when you listen to Scherchen’s Eroica vs., say, Barbirolli’s.


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