# Which composer writes the best 3rd movements/scherzo’s?



## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Hi everyone, lately I’ve been listening to dvôrak symphonies and I really just begun with them, I have only listened to 7, 8 and 9. But what I noticed, all 3 symphonies have unusually good 3rd movements. I find that most of the time especially in symphonies the 3rd movement feels like an afterthought. So I was wondering who you think writes the best 3rd movements/scherzo’s. And also feel free to mention your favourite 3rd movements. For me it would be Mozart’s 40th, Beethoven’s 9th and Dvorak’s 7th


----------



## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

If you count Menuets, Haydn. Bruckner and Beethoven for Scherzos, although these are not always in the 3rd movement. Oh, and Martinu's 1st Symphony has a great Scherzo!

My 2 favorites would be Beethoven's 9th and Bruckner's 9th, if I were to exclude Haydn's Menuets.

*EDIT: *I only included symphonies based on the tenor of your original post.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Glazunov.


----------



## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)




----------



## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

An example of an excellent scherzo from Brahms' String Sextet no. 1:





Mendelssohn String Quartet no. 6 movement 2:




Dvorak String Quartet 13 movement 3:




Chopin wrote stand-alone scherzi:


----------



## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

EvaBaron said:


> I find that most of the time especially in symphonies the 3rd movement feels like an afterthought.


Some symphonies have taken their composers _years_ for completion. Other symphonies may have been completed in merely several months time. I don't recall reading about any symphony having been written in 2 weeks time, but I suppose such is possible.

Nonetheless, whichever length the gestation period was, it seems unlikely to me that an entire movement is an 'afterthought'.

Instead of who wrote the 'best' third movements, whose symphonies (I'm curious to know) have 3rd movements which feel like afterthoughts?


----------



## Terrapin (Apr 15, 2011)

Beethoven, Bruckner, and Dvorak.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Haydn .


----------



## Doublestring (Sep 3, 2014)

It's usually the least memorable movement, but there are exceptions. Beethoven deserves the credit for replacing the all too symmetrical menuet by the more capricious scherzo. My favourites:


Beethoven (Symphony No. 5) 
Brahms (Symphony No. 4) 
Mahler (Symphony No. 5)


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I give the nod for "third movement / scherzos" to Bruckner. My favorite third movement from a symphony remains the Scherzo of Bruckner's Seventh, which I've loved from my first hearing, a half century ago. Never tire of that one.

I find several other Bruckner scherzos quite worthy, too, and have no problem singling one or another out for a "solitary" hearing -- that is, out of context with the rest of the symphony.

Two other great third movement scherzos are the Beethoven Third Symphony's and the Tchaikovsky Sixth's. But you all know that.


----------



## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Prodromides said:


> Some symphonies have taken their composers _years_ for completion. Other symphonies may have been completed in merely several months time. I don't recall reading about any symphony having been written in 2 weeks time, but I suppose such is possible.
> 
> Nonetheless, whichever length the gestation period was, it seems unlikely to me that an entire movement is an 'afterthought'.
> 
> Instead of who wrote the 'best' third movements, whose symphonies (I'm curious to know) have 3rd movements which feel like afterthoughts?


Actually, most symphonies have their most important content in the first movement, slow movement, or even finale. Take the Eroica symphony. Take Haydn's London Symphony. Take Mozart's 40th. Etc.

Examples of exceptions: Beethoven 4, Brahms 3, Dvorak 7


----------



## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

SONNET CLV said:


> I give the nod for "third movement / scherzos" to Bruckner. My favorite third movement from a symphony remains the Scherzo of Bruckner's Seventh, which I've loved from my first hearing, a half century ago. Never tire of that one.
> 
> I find several other Bruckner scherzos quite worthy, too, and have no problem singling one or another out for a "solitary" hearing -- that is, out of context with the rest of the symphony.
> 
> Two other great third movement scherzos are the Beethoven Third Symphony's and the Tchaikovsky Sixth's. But you all know that.


The Pathetique's third movement is a march, not a scherzo.


----------



## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Beethoven. I also personally favor Mahler.


----------



## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

for me, hands down Dvorak wrote the best 3rd movements


----------



## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

I'd have to say Haydn is hard to beat for imagination and variety.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

ORigel said:


> Actually, most symphonies have their most important content in the first movement, slow movement, or even finale. Take the Eroica symphony. Take Haydn's London Symphony. Take Mozart's 40th. Etc.
> 
> Examples of exceptions: Beethoven 4, Brahms 3, Dvorak 7


Exceptions to what? None of these has a extraordinarily weighty scherzo movement; Beethoven 4 and Dvorak 7 have quite traditional "distribution" with the first two being longest and most important, Brahms 3 has a complex and weighty (although compact) finale but the famous intermezzo is popular but not particularly weighty.
In almost all symphonies (or other standard sonata pieces) the first movement is the most weighty and complex. Sometimes this is shifted to finale or slow movement, almost never to the scherzo. Sure, after Beethoven we find more and more exceptions, especially that the finale becomes the longest movement and the distribution is often a bit more equal but the general tendency prevails. Basically the only case I can think of where the scherzo is the central movement in several ways, is Mahler's 5th (there are doubtless a few more cases, in the Rott symphony the scherzo seems also the best movement but probably more for weakness of the rest than by conscious design).

This had to remain an exception because of the overall arch and "poetics" of multi-movement sonata the scherzo/menuet/intermezzo usually cannot be as important as the first movement or finale. Even adding some variety, weight and importance to these movements had to be done with some care not to disturb this balance (unless for a very convincing exception like Mahler 5). Beethoven did a few large-scale scherzi (9th symphony, op.127,132) but not as a rule, so that a huge work like op.106 or 130 can have tiny scherzo movements, and he never followed up on the most extraordinary sonata-rondo-scherzo in op.59/1. So the best way is to make scherzo movements interesting but not overambitious because this will rarely work.
So back to the question, Beethoven and Mahler for me, although the examples from Dvorak (to which I'd add the furiant from th 6th) are also great. Bruckner mostly just made the scherzi too large for their own good (it still works within his framework but I am not overly fond of them).


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Beethoven, Bruckner, Mahler, Dvorak, Shostakovich


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

ORigel said:


> The Pathetique's third movement is a march, not a scherzo.


Of course it is. Which once again shows how utterly original and creative the composer Tchaikovsky could be!


----------



## Jan Arell (7 mo ago)

Bruckner’s 9th, that’s my favourite scherzo.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

SONNET CLV said:


> > ORigel said:
> > The Pathetique's third movement is a march, not a scherzo.
> 
> 
> Of course it is. Which once again shows how utterly original and creative the composer Tchaikovsky could be!


It's a march-like scherzo  whereas the 2nd movement is a quasi-waltz intermezzo.

I wonder what was the first symphony with a non-triple meter scherzo. Beethoven's 9th has the trio in 2/2 but all the main sections are in 3/4. The first I am aware of is Mendelssohn's "Scottish" (1842, although sketched already around 1830)
(There is a 2/4 scherzo in Haydn's c# minor piano sonata and Beethoven's op.31/3 and op.110. op.101 has a march-scherzo in even meter.)


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

ORigel said:


> Take the Eroica symphony. Take Haydn's London Symphony. Take Mozart's 40th. Etc.


Look at this, the 2nd, slow movement is emotionally lighter than all the other movements:


----------



## Cristian Lee (Aug 13, 2017)

*BRUCKNER!*


----------



## phlrdfd (Jan 18, 2015)

Beethoven (Eroica)
Bruckner (7th)
Dvorak (7th)

And although I'm not generally putting him up there with the other three, Schumann's 4th has a great scherzo.


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Not really any competition when it comes to Tchaikovsky's 4th: youtu.be/_Xldfaf4NGw?t=1673

Also pretty good though are,
Borodin: youtu.be/utEzRXtjFiw?t=1355
Beethoven: youtu.be/dTbesxdLwo8?t=1797


----------



## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Another scherzo that is absolutely amazing is from Schubert’s 5th symphony. It reminds me of Mozart’s 40th in a weird way. Of course it’s a very classical symphony so that might be the reason. When I listened to the 4th movement I thought it was Mozart


----------



## Superflumina (Jun 19, 2020)

Schubert's scherzos are great, I'm thinking of the piano sonatas especially.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

EvaBaron said:


> Another scherzo that is absolutely amazing is from Schubert’s 5th symphony. It reminds me of Mozart’s 40th in a weird way. Of course it’s a very classical symphony so that might be the reason. When I listened to the 4th movement I thought it was Mozart


It clearly is a conscious imitation of the menuet from Mozart's 40 and inferior in almost every way, that's why I don't like it very much. The best early symphonic scherzo is in Schubert's 4th, I think.


----------



## StDior (May 28, 2015)

The best 3rd movements composer for me is clearly Joseph Haydn, as he wrote my 3 most favorite 3rd movements:
1. Symphony no.88.
2. Symphony no.97.
The truth is that I prefer the trio part of the 3rd movements of these symphonies. 
3. String quartet op.20 no.2.


----------



## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Superflumina said:


> Schubert's scherzos are great, I'm thinking of the piano sonatas especially.


Schubert is my favorite composer for piano. Definitely agree though i think the original poster meant orchestral but didn't sate it as such


Superflumina said:


> Schubert's scherzos are great, I'm thinking of the piano sonatas especially.


Schubert is my favorite composer for piano. Definitely agree though i think the original poster meant orchestral but didn't state it as such


----------

