# Birgit Nilsson as Ortrud



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

She sang Venus on record and on stage. She recorded act 2 of Parsifal in 1973. I wonder why she never sang Ortrud. There was a rumor she was going to record it with Leontyne Price as Elsa under Leinsdorf but that recording ended up being with Amara and Gorr. Varnay claims Nilsson did not want to encroach on her territory as she was pretty much the Ortrud in the 1950s and early 60s.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I've wondered the same thing. Varnay's claim seems credible, since the two singers were friends. Given the focus and power of her curse in act one of _Tristan_, an "Entweihte Goetter" from Nilsson would have been impressive. I do think that a voice with a lower center of gravity such as Varnay's is more attractive in the part; Wagner designates it a soprano role, but he does the same with both Brangaene and Kundry. Nilsson avoided Kundry too except for that recording of act 2 (which I've not heard), for which I haven't encountered an explanation.

(I've found a bit of her Kundry recording on YouTube. Just a bleeding chunk, unfortunately. Apparently "Dramatic Soprano," who posted it, only cares about high notes.)


----------



## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Francasacchi said:


> She sang Venus on record and on stage. She recorded act 2 of Parsifal in 1973. I wonder why she never sang Ortrud. *There was a rumor she was going to record it with Leontyne Price as Elsa under Leinsdorf but that recording ended up being with Amara and Gorr*. Varnay claims Nilsson did not want to encroach on her territory as she was pretty much the Ortrud in the 1950s and early 60s.


That would be the most bizarre Lohengrin ever. Nilsson's timbre is too bright for Ortrud, and Price's too dark/woofy for Elsa. If it were Margaret Price, it would make more sense.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

OffPitchNeb said:


> That would be the most bizarre Lohengrin ever. Nilsson's timbre is too bright for Ortrud, and Price's too dark/woofy for Elsa. If it were Margaret Price, it would make more sense.


I agree. I really like Varnay's Ortrud, it's probably my favourite of her roles and she suited it much better than she did Elsa. Nilsson sang Elsa (I think), but I don't think her timbre would have been ideal for either that character or Ortrud to be honest. I should seek out that Kundry recording though. That she never sang that role on stage is stranger to me than the absence of her Ortrud.

N.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I agree. I really like Varnay's Ortrud, it's probably my favourite of her roles and she suited it much better than she did Elsa. Nilsson sang Elsa (I think), but I don't think her timbre would have been ideal for either that character or Ortrud to be honest. I should seek out that Kundry recording though. That she never sang that role on stage is stranger to me than the absence of her Ortrud.
> 
> N.


From the bit of her Kundry I heard I'm doubtful. I actually think she'd be better as Ortrud than as Kundry. Nilsson's timbre was just too insistently bright, and her effective range too high. Wagner does call Kundry a soprano, but until the last few pages of her part you'd never suspect it.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> From the bit of her Kundry I heard I'm doubtful. I actually think she'd be better as Ortrud than as Kundry. Nilsson's timbre was just too insistently bright, and her effective range too high. Wagner does call Kundry a soprano, but until the last few pages of her part you'd never suspect it.


The range of Ortrud may have been more comfortable for her, but I like a real dark mezzoish sound in the role. Ludwig and Meier are my favourite Ortruds. Perhaps she knew what she was about in not singing either role complete.

N.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> The range of Ortrud may have been more comfortable for her, but I like a real dark mezzoish sound in the role. Ludwig and Meier are my favourite Ortruds. Perhaps she knew what she was about in not singing either role complete.
> 
> N.


Going back some years, there was Margarete Klose's Ortrud. She was phenomenal as Fricka too.


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Anny Konetzni owned the role in Vienna for almost 20 years. Her timbre was not noticeably dark, but when placed in contrast to that of her sister Hilde when they recorded together, it is heavier and denser. Anny began as a contralto. Much as I like mezzos, many really end up sounding attenuated in the Fahr heim outburst which really calls for a dramatic soprano.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The end of the scene is indeed tough for mezzos, but Kundry is so hysterical at that point that a little vocal stress doesn't necessarily detract. Christa Ludwig and Irene Dalis, my favorite mezzo Kundrys, are quite convincing, and elsewhere their warm, rich lower voices beat out most of the sopranos. I think a mezzo is better at sounding both seductive and maternal, exactly the two qualities Kundry needs to make Parsifal cry for mama.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The end of the scene is indeed tough for mezzos, but Kundry is so hysterical at that point that a little vocal stress doesn't necessarily detract. Christa Ludwig and Irene Dalis, my favorite mezzo Kundrys, are quite convincing, and elsewhere their warm, rich lower voices beat out most of the sopranos. I think a mezzo is better at sounding both seductive and maternal, exactly the two qualities Kundry needs to make Parsifal cry for mama.


Varnay had the mezzo richness and the acting abilities to really make this a great role for her. Kundry needs a good actress, which of course Ludwig was.


----------



## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

OffPitchNeb said:


> That would be the most bizarre Lohengrin ever. Nilsson's timbre is too bright for Ortrud, and Price's too dark/woofy for Elsa. If it were Margaret Price, it would make more sense.


NICE option, for Margaret Price! Too bad she was never given a "chance" for the role, eh? Well, as for Rita Gorr/Ortrud, she was truly fine, up until the latter part of the Leinsdorf LP. I think there's a Bayreuth/1959 performance (available on Amazon, apparently) where Gorr is in BETTER, vocal shape. I guess it's obvious that Varnay, and Margarete Klose (wonderful!) and others deserve mention, as seen in earlier posts. Geez, are there ANY present-day singers who could match the best of the past? I won't hold my breath for the answer, unless someone wants to mention (someone). Thanks.


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

89Koechel said:


> NICE option, for Margaret Price! Too bad she was never given a "chance" for the role, eh? Well, as for Rita Gorr/Ortrud, she was truly fine, up until the latter part of the Leinsdorf LP. I think there's a Bayreuth/1959 performance (available on Amazon, apparently) where Gorr is in BETTER, vocal shape. I guess it's obvious that Varnay, and Margarete Klose (wonderful!) and others deserve mention, as seen in earlier posts. Geez, are there ANY present-day singers who could match the best of the past? I won't hold my breath for the answer, unless someone wants to mention (someone). Thanks.


The Leinsdorf recording shows Gorr struggling with the tessitura especially in the outburst in Act 3. I heard there were repeated takes of Entweihter Gotter and she was in tears. She was not renewed at the Met the following year and the Eboli at Covent Garden mentioned much strain in O don fatale. By 1968 she was mostly singing in smaller houses in France and Belgium and had given up mezzo roles with a high tessitura. I wonder if taking on Medee in 1962 may have contributed to the premature blow out of the top register.


----------



## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Francasacchi said:


> The Leinsdorf recording shows Gorr struggling with the tessitura especially in the outburst in Act 3. I heard there were repeated takes of Entweihter Gotter and she was in tears. She was not renewed at the Met the following year and the Eboli at Covent Garden mentioned much strain in O don fatale. By 1968 she was mostly singing in smaller houses in France and Belgium and had given up mezzo roles with a high tessitura. I wonder if taking on Medee in 1962 may have contributed to the premature blow out of the top register.


I don't quite see the appeal of Gorr. She had a big, but "fussy" voice to me. The tone is harsh, unfocused, and very unattractive in most of the roles she sang. She is the main reason I don't like Pretre's _Samson et Dalila_ set as I should. 

However, she sounded pretty nice as Kundry in a live Parsifal under Cluytens.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

OffPitchNeb said:


> I don't quite see the appeal of Gorr. She had a big, but "fussy" voice to me. The tone is harsh, unfocused, and very unattractive in most of the roles she sang. She is the main reason I don't like Pretre's _Samson et Dalila_ set as I should.
> 
> However, she sounded pretty nice as Kundry in a live Parsifal under Cluytens.


I didn't like either Gorr _or_ Vickers in that _Samson - _a lot of crude roaring from them both_ - _and unfortunately it was the only recording available for many years. I shut off the record somewhere in act one and never heard the opera again for decades. From looking at the casts I'm not sure that I'd greatly care for any of the recordings now available, though I see there's a 1946 recording with Luccioni and Bouvier that looks promising and gets good reviews.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I didn't like either Gorr _or_ Vickers in that _Samson - _a lot of crude roaring from them both_ - _and unfortunately it was the only recording available for many years. I shut off the record somewhere in act one and never heard the opera again for decades. From looking at the casts I'm not sure that I'd greatly care for any of the recordings now available, though I see there's a 1946 recording with Luccioni and Bouvier that looks promising and gets good reviews.


That 1946 set is lovely. Very idiomatic and involved. Bouvier could be a bit more sumptuous maybe but her superb diction makes up for it. The rest of the cast is excellent as is the conducting and in very fine mono sound for the 40s.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I didn't like either Gorr _or_ Vickers in that _Samson - _a lot of crude roaring from them both_ - _and unfortunately it was the only recording available for many years. I shut off the record somewhere in act one and never heard the opera again for decades. From looking at the casts I'm not sure that I'd greatly care for any of the recordings now available, though I see there's a 1946 recording with Luccioni and Bouvier that looks promising and gets good reviews.


There's a good thread that Tsarras and I contributed to:
(14) Samson Et Dalila on Disc | Classical Music Forum (talkclassical.com)

(I'm not sure that that link will work) 

My favourite (along with TCers in the 2015 favourite opera recordings thread) is the Chung with Domingo and Meier. Tsarras prefers the Davis with Carreras and Baltsa and that second one is certainly worth hearing if you haven't before. Carreras is strained in places, but other than that it's a great version of the work.

N.


----------

