# Is the physical appearance of a singer a factor?



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Naturally, the backbone of opera is the music, vocal and orchestral. But as a complex theatrical endeavor, opera also consists of stagecraft, acting, physical things like production or sets or even props. And, because it's theatrical as well as auditory, the physical appearance of the performers also matters. Question is, how much?

We've all heard the trite phrase "It ain't over till the fat lady sings" although it has zero true resemblance to opera, the "public" concept of opera is fat people singing. This may have been partially true in earlier times, when increased girth was considered "healthy" and a way to indicate prosperity. And in some cultures and eras, ample people were often the "correct" standard of appearance. Add to this the incorrect theory that you had to be "substantial" to sing opera properly, and there's probably some truth to the "fat singer" stereotype.

Nowdays, of course, many singers are not only svelte but quite athletic, a social aspect that's common in society too. But enough of the background material...

Does the appearance of the singer affect your appreciation of the opera? If the singer is much too heavy or way too old for the role, do you find it difficult to "connect" with the performance? A couple of examples from my personal experience...

1- In the superb new Met "Las Vegas" Rigoletto, Diana Damrau sings Gilda. And her voice was superb! But she's in her 40s and looks it, and I found it a bit difficult to disconnect that in my mind and see her as the 16-18 year old Gilda.

2- In my very well done Met "Il Tabarro" DVD, Teresa Stratas sings Giorgetta, and with stunning beauty and power. Nevertheless, she was in her 50s (and looked it) and again, I had a bit of trouble accepting her as the young, frustrated wife of Michele.

3- At a Houston Grand Opera Aida a few years ago, the soprano singing Aida was, er, large. And I don't mean just hefty. She was hugely overweight and actually waddled onstage. Yes she sang beautifully but she was also distracting.

4- In his later career, Pavarotti couldn't seem to get enough black hair dye (apparently Usama bin Laden cornered the market) and during camera closeups, it looked damn silly. And in contrast to the other 3 examples, his voice was strained and tired, and the arias kept getting a half-tone lower each season. I know he was more of a lyric tenor whereas Domingo is more spinto or dramatic, but it seems that Domingo knew the clock was ticking and began to assume more mature roles.

And yes, I KNOW that it's a "conceit" when we watch opera, that we know it's all "fake", just as when we see a movie and realize that they're just actors in front of cameras. It's called "suspension of disbelief", that we "forget" the realities and enter the fantasy of theatrical performances, regardless of which venue.

But regardless, opera is part stagecraft and part acting, and despite the audio (singing and orchestra) being primary, part of opera is visual.

So my question: If a singer is not age-appropriate for the role, either way too old or young, or the singer is, well, obese, does this detract from your appreciation of the opera? Or does it not matter at all? And naturally, this question only relates to operas you've attended or seen on DVD or live TV, not just the audio CD.

Another quick question... there's a term, a bit derogatory I think, describing the baroque stage acting (or lack of it) in which the singers simply stand there and sing, minimal movement or physical acting. I seem to remember a German phrase, "Platzensing" or similar?

Thanks!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Anyone's physical appearance is a factor whenever initially (and later) presenting their self.

"If a singer is not age-appropriate for the role, either way too old or young, or the singer is, well, obese, does this detract from your appreciation of the opera?"

First, real theatre, meters between the first row and the stage, strong lights, heavy makeup, and costuming make for a very wide lattitude on age and weight, so is far less a concern than it is for film.

The weight thing ~ "inappropriate" continues though if you were a pre weight-loss Pavorotti onstage with Monserrat Caballe both dead on the stage, prone on the stage, and the critic comments that they had an unfortunate resemblance to two beached whales, that can effect how far one must stretch the suspended belief element. Then again, they were Pavoratti and Caballe....

Many people, if the singing is incredibly fine, 'give it over' as to appearance, lack of acting ability, and much else. When it all comes together, the desirable lead is not four-foot five, two hundred pounds, can sing wonderfully and actually act, it gets more difficult to accept less of another sort of presence about them on stage.

The proliferation of DVD vids, filmed stage production are less forgiving:
If Violetta looks like a beach ball on feet, it is harder to believe that la creme de la creme of Parisian manhood were competing for her company


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

yes  but mostly for certain roles. If the character is supposed to be _caliente_ (Carmen, Don Giovanni, Cherubino, Die Marschallin, the Duke of Mantua etc.) and the singer ain't a looker or seems awkward in their role, well... it's a pitty and a bit of a turnoff. If the role is neutral then I'm not picky. If the singer is too old but still appropriate (ie, attractive when the character is meant to be) or if it's a neutral role then I'm not complaining. In regards to heaviness, it depends on how a person carries the curves. Some people can pull off extra pounds so it's not a problem at all. That being said, I saw a bit of Stephanie Blythe's Orphee and I thought _ok, maybe not_, as much as she's a fine singer.

if the singer can't act to save his/her life (and it's not just a daft production, it's been proven by other roles) I am miffed. Come on, make an effort and try to think like the character! how can you sing the words and not feel compelled to express the feelings?! here's where I'd put Pavarotti - he always seemed to be playing himself, so the weight wasn't so much an issue (he had the kind of boyish charm that helped him a lot) as his lack of acting skills. Or maybe he didn't want to move, that's possible too. Now I've never heard a finer Norma than Caballe so if I could see her in that role I'd take her over any hot babe contemporary singer. She herself was quite hot when she was very young...



katdad said:


> 1- In the superb new Met "Las Vegas" Rigoletto, Diana Damrau sings Gilda. And her voice was superb! But she's in her 40s and looks it, and I found it a bit difficult to disconnect that in my mind and see her as the 16-18 year old Gilda.


no bitching about Damrau  the woman is a goddess (so yes, if I find the singer caliente I don't care how old she is - although if she still sings Gilda when she's 70, like Gruberova with her Lucia, then I might start to smirk; but then I'll be in my 60s as well so I might have a different perspective on the whole thing). This reminds me that I don't think I've seen a very young looking singer play a teenager (aside from Stratas in Salome?).


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

We've discussed this before

clicky

but it doesn't mean we can't discuss it some more, it's a valid and interesting subject.

I saw an opera recently (not going to name it) and one of the singers was so overweight I feared for his health. He was sweating so much he had to continually wipe his face as the sweat was affecting his vision. He's got a fabulous voice but his weight was very distracting. I don't think it's healthy for a singer or anyone for that matter, to be too skinny but there's no excuse to be this obese.

I'm not bothered about what age or race/colour a singer is as long as they deliver the goods. However sometimes a singer's culture can affect their performance. Royal Opera House Young Artist Jihoon Kim talks about how he is adapting to opera in UK.

PS I just read through all of the thread where we discussed this before. *Sigh* miss those good friends who don't post any more.

PPS Lukas could do with losing the odd pound or two


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Speaking only for myself, I do get distracted if someone's age or weight is totally inappropriate, but fine acting can make me suspend disbelief - to a point. Race doesn't seem to matter as much. I may be wrong, but I think it was different a hundred years ago, when fat opera singers were the absolute norm. We are much pickier today about weight or unattractive looks, in every sphere of life.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

In terms of weight, yes, some singers can be large but move so beautifully that the weight doesn't matter - Jessye Norman comes to mind (although I had to suspend a LOT of disbelief when watching the Met Levine ring, when Hunding was saying how alike Siegmund and Sieglinde are:










But sometimes it is distracting. There is a Forza del Destino from the Met where the Leonora is so distractingly large that all I could think of in act one was - _"Alvaro is never going to get her through the window. Hope they've got French doors."_

I think the problem with Pavarotti in later years, once he'd made it, is that he traded too much on his fame. He was too lazy to learn any new roles, and too lazy to even pretend to act. There is a funny story in Lotfi Mansouri's memoir about Mansouri discovering a massive hole in one of his precious sets. When the stage hands were questioned they said they had cut it so that Pav didn't have to climb up three steps to get on stage.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> In terms of weight, yes, some singers can be large but move so beautifully that the weight doesn't matter - Jessye Norman comes to mind (although I had to suspend a LOT of disbelief when watching the Met Levine ring, when Hunding was saying how alike Siegmund and Sieglinde are:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sad but funny!!

See my PS (above)


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> See my PS (above)


Ha yes he's not looking his most gorgeous there!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I'm afraid it is hard to suspend disbelief when there is an enormous singer as (say) a consumptive heroine. I believe Jesse Norman was once asked why she never sang Traviata replied, 'who could imagine me dying of consumption'. Now as a singer one can only marvel but when you actually see her on stage it can be distracting. Same with Pavorotti - what a voice! But the figure? Interesting when Karajan recorded Butterfly he had Pav for the audio and Domingo for the video. That says a lot, I think. Actually I believe it was H v K when he was asked what his contribution to opera was said, 'I chased all those fat ladies off the stage"

Of course, DVD is a problem. The Met haven't realised that what you can get away with on stage and a large theatre (and plenty of make-up) will not do in the merciless medium of DVD. There was a particularly hilarious Fidelio where the poor starving Florestan was Ben Heppner. A great voice but what a size! Falstaff yes! Florestan, please, no!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

DavidA said:


> There was a particularly hilarious Fidelio where the poor starving Florestan was Ben Heppner. A great voice but what a size! Falstaff yes! Florestan, please, no!


Haha I remember this! And you can see Karita Mattila manfully (womanfully?!) trying to get her arms around his neck to give him a hug and being defeated by the rather large tum!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Haha I remember this! And you can see Karita Mattila manfully (womanfully?!) trying to get her arms around his neck to give him a hug and being defeated by the rather large tum!


Same with the Mastersingers. Matilla looked older than her father Pogner, close up, well though she acted. And Heppner as Walther? He looks as if he has wandered in from Falstaff! Great singing but then so is his girth.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback. It seems that most here are pretty much in agreement with me -- yes, physical appearance can make difference, negatively so, should the singer be too old or too large, but good acting and an energetic stage presence can counter this, and of course, superb singing is a terrific plus for anyone.

re. Damrau, I also think she's superb, a stunning voice and actually, a very pretty woman. But not very persuasive as a teen. No harshness intended, just the facts and physics of the thing.

Agreed that Pavarotti sadly used his fame to grab the spotlight too much. Sad because there's no need for it. He's already loved for his voice and earlier stage presence, so he had nothing more to prove. Insecurity however reared its head, and I also think that he felt indirectly challenged by Domingo, who's proven a lot smarter and more widely talented.

A somewhat portly singer is okay, sure. But as was said, you can sometimes worry about the health of a singer onstage, hoping they won't do another Leonard Warren (no disrespect to his greatness).

Myself, I was a fairly beachball shaped guy at one time, but I did lose a considerable amount of weight just as I was starting to sing semi-pro. I know for certain that I had lots more energy and felt more at ease on stage and singing in general. Nevertheless I've never been 'leading man' material and all my roles were buffo or "old guy" or "grandpa giving advice" stuff. Which was fine. My dream role would have been Papageno but I was never a "real" professional-level baritone, so I was just fine as Antonio the drunken gardener in Nozze or similar roles.

One final point -- it's damn silly and block-headed these days for someone to be very obese, especially some opera star who has the money to hire a trainer or at the very least avail him/her self of good coaching. A bit of heft (Renee Fleming or Damrau for example) okay, but we've also sadly seen these huge people trying to have a persuasive stage presence and it's cheating both the fans and the singer.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

*Is the physical appearance of a singer a factor?*

Yes, if he's in a rock band.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

katdad, thanks for your interesting thread.

Now that I know you have proper experience, may I ask, is there anything in the idea that the voice sounds better coming from a huge chest? I remember in the 1960s reading an article where two operatic sopranos were tut-tutting over another's loss of weight (could it have been Callas) and saying that her voice just wasn't as good. They were both fat themselves & obviously felt that it benefited their voices. 

Hope it isn't true, because that would mean that in the days of fitness trainers, we aren't getting the lovely voices; on the other hand, I'd hate to think that my musical tastes were shortening a singer's life. 

What has been your experience? When you lost the weight, did your voice sound any different?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

It would certainly be very interesting to see a 50 year old, 120kg soprano sing the role of Cherubino. I'd definitely buy tickets to that event!


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## Spock (Jun 8, 2013)

I say definitely YES to your original question. 

If I'm watching an opera and the leading lady is supposed to be either young or hot or both, and she's not that, I've checked out. I don't care how beautifully she sings. 

For example - can you imagine someone playing the lead in Carmen not being young and hot? Have there been an operas where this is not the case? Or the gal playing Natasha in War and Peace or Salome, and so forth and so forth - she absolutely has to be smoking hot!!!!! 

If not.....I'm not interested.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

If a 15 year old girl could sing Butterfly or Salome properly, it would be great. However due to the rareness of these cases, one must put some imagination into it. It's difficult to look at all those fat Radameses and Siegfrieds going to battle. hheheheh

We live in an age where the appearence is as much as important as the role itself. The more we can join these two, the better. When missing one, music comes always first. And sometimes we can get a good balance. For example: Elena Obratsova is far superior Delilah than Elina Garanca...but i'd let Elina cut my hair whenever she'd want


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> It would certainly be very interesting to see a 50 year old, 120kg soprano sing the role of Cherubino. I'd definitely buy tickets to that event!


well, if the Countess was in her 70s, why not? you know it could happen! and they could set it in an old folks' home.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Starving opera stars need 'beef' to sing says Dame Kiri Te Kanawa.

Some good sense from a clever lady who has expertly managed her voice & career so they have lasted a long time.

link to story


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

In the case of dramatic sopranos I'd say yes. All of the dramatic sopranos I've ever heard of had large facial bone structure and strong jawbones to help create a sounding board to produce a large sound. The best examples of this are Birgit Nilsson, Joan Sutherland, Jessye Norman and Renata Tebaldi, all who had huge faces and large, prominent jawbones. You will see the same thing in the very slender Waltraud Meier. Debbie Voigt has a similar facial structure. The biggest female voice around today, the dramatic mezzo Stephanie Blythe, has enormous bone structure in her face. Rosa Ponselle was famous for the great width of her cheekbones in the mask of her face and had a very similar shape to her face to that of the great Caruso.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

sospiro said:


> Starving opera stars need 'beef' to sing says Dame Kiri Te Kanawa.


Much as I've loved Dame Kiri's singing all these years, I tend to disagree. Look at Teresa Stratas, a teeny gal, yet she had a powerful voice. And I've known quite a few female opera singers and most have been either slender or average, and had excellent voices.

Same for male singers. There are many slender and athletic male singers who are superb.

It's the technique of using the diaphragm and air column, as well as diction and tone control, and none of that has anything to do with heft.

By the way, any time Dame Kiri makes it to the States, she's welcome to phone me -- I've had a crush on her from the start, ha ha


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> well, if the Countess was in her 70s, why not? you know it could happen! and they could set it in an old folks' home.


Now you've done it, haven't you. Coming soon to an opera house in Berlin, Zurich or Munich, le Nozze del Vecchissimo Figaro set in Sunset homes, gratuitous blood and splatter courtesy of Calixto Bieito.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ :lol: Sunset homes, where no regie has gone before!


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Well, I suppose even under Calixto Bieito, the Sunset homes production wouldn't have much nudity ... but maybe I'm just an optimist by nature.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Regarding the question of physical appearance, since the point of opera is the singing, I always am happy to take what I can get. If the singer has reasonably competent acting skills, those skills combined with decent costumes and makeup go a long way toward assisting me with suspending disbelief. Acting, I think, is key. 

I recall seeing Montserrat Caballe sing Elisabeth of Valois in Don Carlos at the Met in the 80s - she sang like a dream, but only would walk out for her big moment, sing, then disappear again. Not remotely convincing physically, but she was Caballe, after all, so what could you say? I saw the same production a couple of years earlier with Renata Scotto - her voice could be like finger nails on a chalk board, but she had a good night and while a woman of certain years, was attractive and in good shape. I don't know, it's kind of a toss-up. Btw, in that earlier production, Marilyn Horne sang Eboli. She was fabulous - I don't recall her acting, but she had such stage presence, I remember it still. Oh, and Sherrill Milnes sang Posa, James Morris sang Phillip and Giuseppe Giacomini was Don Carlos. What a night. Ah, the Met!

All that said, when I do run into those occasions when a singer meets physical expectations, e.g. Erwin Schrott as Don Giovanni, it heightens the experience. After seeing her sing Sieglinde in the recent Berliner Staatsoper Ring in April, I would crawl across broken glass to see Waltraud Meier sing again.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Now you've done it, haven't you. Coming soon to an opera house in Berlin, Zurich or Munich, le Nozze del Vecchissimo Figaro set in Sunset homes, gratuitous blood and splatter courtesy of Calixto Bieito.


:lol:

Will be the only opera where the singers are older than the audience


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

I can suspend disbelief if the singing is worthwhile

I've seen physically inappropriate people sing roles brilliantly. I've seen absolutely stunning people sing roles poorly (a stunner that sang Susannah in Figaro comes to mind - but I felt the size of her voice was too small even for Mozart). It's the music that always comes first for me

To use a before and after example - Voigt is now a very attractive woman, especially considering she's in her 50s. But now I find her voice has changed a lot for the worse since the weight loss and I don't find her pleasing to listen to. There are other factors to consider other than the drop in weight (natural ageing, a heavier and more demanding repertoire), but I hint her voice has deteriorated a lot. Saying that, any time I hear recent Voigt, she's never as bad as I remember her sounding in my head haha


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I have to confess I do like a bit of eye-candy even if the singing isn't top class, aka basic instinct-itis.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

My father used to recount seeing a wartime performance of Boheme in Italy where the frozen tiny hand produced by the (enormous) consumptive seamstress was the size of a large dinner plate!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

DavidA said:


> the frozen tiny hand produced by the (enormous) consumptive seamstress was the size of a large dinner plate!


but was it a _frozen_ dinner plate?


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

In an opera house, the stage always dwarf even the largest soprano into a reasonable size lady.
I was never bother by large lady, Sharon Sweet, Alexandra Marc, Deborah Voigt (pre surgery day), Jane Eaglen, Magaret Price etc.
as long as they can sing well. However, I was a lot more bother by slimmer, more beautiful singers who sing poorly.
Certainly I would not object to beautiful singers who can sing well but I would pick voice over look any day for opera.
Acting wise, some ladies may not be much more effective than a litle walking here and there but in opera house,
it is not as important as when they are being closed up by camera. May be the pressure of live broadcast, DVD is making looks much more important than in the past but I think it is a sad day when Voigt was fired from Covent Garden because she was too big and could not fit costumes. Stage directors are dime a dozen but great voice is much much rarer. 
I wish Voigt all the best and wish her health well but if I have a choice, her voice back then was much more impressive than it is now unfortunately and I could not help thinking that losing all that weight, while it is good for her health, does nothing for her voice nor opera in general.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

I heard Deborah Voigt singing Die Kaiserin in _Die Frau Ohne Schatten,_ around the year 2000, pouring forth these shimmering, golden oceans waves of sound over that huge Strauss orchestra. It was one of the musical highlights of my life. She was also enormous, although veiled in shimmering ocean waves of fabric. And you are right, it did not disturb. Her tenor, Johan Botha, was not a little guy either; fact is, he would have looked all wrong to be small next to her.

I heard her years later at the Met, post-little black dress, post-surgery, in _Ballo in Maschera,_ and her voice was still lovely but had lost a bit of its point, that thriiling, instant-on attack she had earlier, one that no other soprano had ever mastered so effectively. I wonder if it was the considerably different size, or just getting older (we all do it, I hear; sigh).

Best Regards, :tiphat:

George


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

I heard Voigt in 1990's at the Met in Elektra where she sang Chrysothemis with Behrens as Elektra then Un Ballo with Pavarotti.
She was excellent in both and everybody was talking about her as the next Isolde and Brunnhilde. Unfortunately I have not had a chance to hear her more recently but judging from her La Fanciulla and Met's Ring Cycle, she did not quite become what everybody was hoping she would be. I don't know if it is only the weight issue or if there is any other problem but I do think that weight is certainly part of the problem if not the only problem. Carol Vaness was another example. Listening to her Donna Anna or Fiorlidigi recorded when she was relatively young and compared it to her Contessa and Donna Elvira from early 1990's
after she lost quite a bit of weight (by lots of exercise, no dieting according to her), there was quite a bit of deterioration in her voice eventhough she should really be in her prime in early 1990's age wise. I heard her as Desdemona, Donna Elvira, Fiolidigi, Elisabetta, Antonia and a few others and she did not have the kind of power or thrust that she displayed in her recording of Donna Anna. Mind you, I don't think she was not all that big to start of with, may be big in comparison to anorexic model 
but really she was a very fine looking lady even without all those weight loss.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

suteetat said:


> I heard Voigt in 1990's at the Met in Elektra where she sang Chrysothemis with Behrens as Elektra then Un Ballo with Pavarotti.
> She was excellent in both and everybody was talking about her as the next Isolde and Brunnhilde. Unfortunately I have not had a chance to hear her more recently but judging from her La Fanciulla and Met's Ring Cycle, she did not quite become what everybody was hoping she would be. I don't know if it is only the weight issue or if there is any other problem but I do think that weight is certainly part of the problem if not the only problem. Carol Vaness was another example. Listening to her Donna Anna or Fiorlidigi recorded when she was relatively young and compared it to her Contessa and Donna Elvira from early 1990's
> after she lost quite a bit of weight (by lots of exercise, no dieting according to her), there was quite a bit of deterioration in her voice eventhough she should really be in her prime in early 1990's age wise. I heard her as Desdemona, Donna Elvira, Fiolidigi, Elisabetta, Antonia and a few others and she did not have the kind of power or thrust that she displayed in her recording of Donna Anna. Mind you, I don't think she was not all that big to start of with, may be big in comparison to anorexic model
> but really she was a very fine looking lady even without all those weight loss.


I think in a case like Waltraud Meier, Leonie Rysenek, and Hildegard Behrens, Rita Stevens, and Dorothy Lawrence a slender singer can sing heavy parts effectively if they start out that way. It is hard for singers to relearn their breathing if they radically slim down. Jessye Norman lost 100 pounds ( but was still probably 250) and her voice never was quite as wonderful as she was before even though she was a good size for singing. Conversely, some singers like Jane Eaglen were fine fine singers at very obese weights when young, but had difficulty breathing and supporting the voice as she reached 50. Very sad.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I think in a case like Waltraud Meier, Leonie Rysenek, and Hildegard Behrens, Rita Stevens, and Dorothy Lawrence a slender singer can sing heavy parts effectively if they start out that way. It is hard for singers to relearn their breathing if they radically slim down. Jessye Norman lost 100 pounds ( but was still probably 250) and her voice never was quite as wonderful as she was before even though she was a good size for singing. Conversely, some singers like Jane Eaglen were fine fine singers at very obese weights when young, but had difficulty breathing and supporting the voice as she reached 50. Very sad.


I agree that there are a number of singers who are not big but with big voice as well. Behrens is rather tiny by opera standard and it was a big surprise to hear how big her voice was the first time.

A singer who looks the part, act well, excellent voice and great technique would be ideal but I think we are expecting too much. Excellent voice and great technique are already a rare commodity and in opera, I think we should not compromise on the vocal quality for the sake of visual effect. I think when movie director and stage director can understand that then they are welcome to direct opera. Much of listening to opera is about suspended believability and not to giggle about 200 lbs 16 years old geisha being described as a little plaything. Opera singing is already hard enough without all the expectation of movie theatre going crowd and size 0 super model. 
We are already being tortured enough by Hollywood and overpaid actors/actress who know nothing about the real craft. Recently the movie Les Miserables is a good example. Of all the big hollywood star lead characters, was there anybody who was capable of decent singing? Too bad we are being force to accept that singing is only secondary even in a musical and general public does not seem to know any better. I hope that will not be the case for opera as well.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Barelytenor said:


> I heard Deborah Voigt singing Die Kaiserin in _Die Frau Ohne Schatten,_ around the year 2000, pouring forth these shimmering, golden oceans waves of sound over that huge Strauss orchestra. It was one of the musical highlights of my life. She was also enormous, although veiled in shimmering ocean waves of fabric. And you are right, it did not disturb. Her tenor, Johan Botha, was not a little guy either; fact is, he would have looked all wrong to be small next to her.
> 
> I heard her years later at the Met, post-little black dress, post-surgery, in _Ballo in Maschera,_ and her voice was still lovely but had lost a bit of its point, that thriiling, instant-on attack she had earlier, one that no other soprano had ever mastered so effectively. I wonder if it was the considerably different size, or just getting older (we all do it, I hear; sigh).
> 
> ...


I forgot to mention that this was at Covent Garden. I knew I was going to be in London for a week doing a trade show, so I bought two tickets each to _Rigoletto _and _Frau._ I brought a friend to _Rigoletto,_ bought her a nice pasta dinner beforehand, cliff-noted the plot, hummed a few of the big tunes, and she really enjoyed it (especially Marcelo Alvarez, a dashing Duke).

But I couldn't get any of my cohorts to come along to _Frau Ohne Schatten._ I tried to scalp the ticket outside the door for something close to what I paid for it. No go. These were great seats, just a few rows back from the orchestra. I should have given it to that nice middle-aged lady, I'm sure she would have been congenial company. But I ended up with a 115-GBP empty seat on my left.

Somehow the _luxe_ setting, my deluxe seating, and the equal opulence of Voigt's figure, the Strauss score (one of the lushest in all of the literature), and her divine singing made all seem right with the world. It helps that I adore Strauss, save for some screamy bits in _Elektra_. You know, when you're a big plus-size soprano and you wear all those flowing robes (Voigt's were a dark gray/black with sparkly sequins, if I recall rightly), the voluminous drapery and their being above you on the stage may actually heighten (weighten?) the effect of_ majesté. _

And it was not a bad thing. Natalie Dessay could not have done it.

Best Regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Deborah Voigt is scheduled to sing Isolde here in Washington in September (w/Ian Storey singing Tristan) - she has sung here before and, in the last several years, I have not been very impressed. Opera lovers were entranced with her debut, though there was criticism about her being on the _saftig_ side, which may have prompted the weight loss. I have no clue whether there is a connection between her weight loss and apparent vocal deterioration, but again, with these tough roles, I am less concerned with a singer's physical appearance than singing ability.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Barelytenor said:


> I forgot to mention that this was at Covent Garden. I knew I was going to be in London for a week doing a trade show, so I bought two tickets each to _Rigoletto _and _Frau._ I brought a friend to _Rigoletto,_ bought her a nice pasta dinner beforehand, cliff-noted the plot, hummed a few of the big tunes, and she really enjoyed it (especially Marcelo Alvarez, a dashing Duke).
> 
> But I couldn't get any of my cohorts to come along to _Frau Ohne Schatten._ I tried to scalp the ticket outside the door for something close to what I paid for it. No go. These were great seats, just a few rows back from the orchestra. I should have given it to that nice middle-aged lady, I'm sure she would have been congenial company. But I ended up with a 115-GBP empty seat on my left.
> 
> ...


I never had a chance to see Die Frau yet which is a pity. I saw Alexandra Marc in a concert/semi stage performance of Elektra with Chicago Symphony/Barenboim where she sang Chrysothemis. Her dress unfortunately was not very flattering and Chicago Tribune reviewer said that it made her looked like a giant raspberry. 
However, she moved well for someone her size and her voice was really on that night. Who cared what she looked like when she was able to produce wave after wave of glorious singing. One of those rare occasions when I got goose bump all over listening to live performance. Unfortunately her voice does not record well and on recording, you can only get barely a glimpse of what her voice can be. Too bad she is not a very consistent singers and have quite a bit of up and down.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

suteetat said:


> I never had a chance to see Die Frau yet which is a pity.


come to London next March.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

suteetat said:


> I A singer who looks the part, act well, excellent voice and great technique would be ideal but I think we are expecting too much.


Jonas Kaufmann. And Elina Garanca, Anna Netrebko, and Anja Harteros, just off the top of my head.

Of course, not everyone can look -- or sing -- like these folks, and I'll also take a first-rate voice over a knockout appearance.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Some singers with really big voices - Kirsten Fladstad, Astrid Varnay, Birgit Nilsson - none of them was small but they weren't obese either, at least in their younger days. Knappersbusch described Fladstad as being 'built like a battleship.' I believe Karajan's endearing description of Nilsson was 'Scarpia without makeup'. 
Then of course there was Anya Silya, an exception to every rule.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

Waltraud Meier was and is a incredible dramatic mezzo/soprano. The best thing just is that she's Hot


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## sparsity (Apr 10, 2012)

Of course it is. Just to take a random example, Miah Persson was a wonderful sight as Fiordiligi.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

MAuer said:


> Jonas Kaufmann. And Elina Garanca, Anna Netrebko, and Anja Harteros, just off the top of my head.
> 
> Of course, not everyone can look -- or sing -- like these folks, and I'll also take a first-rate voice over a knockout appearance.


Good looking is a bit different from looking the part though. Afterall, most lead soprano roles for example are supposed to be most likely in their teens to early 20's at most, a lot of lead tenors as well for that matter, I think. Even Marschallin or Contessa Almalviva are probably only in their mid-late 20's or early 30's at most. Exactly how young could Netrebko be passed as? Is there is any soprano who could sing Butterfly that look anything like a petite little 16 years old Japanese geisha? I guess Yin Huang came the closest in a movie version but she was only able to sing it in a studio and not live at the time when she made the movie. I can't remember how old Isolde is supposed to be and may be Varnay at the beginning of her career probably could pull it off since she sang all the heavy Wagnerian role right from the beginning of her career. Even Meier, as good looking as she is, can't exactly pulled a youthful 20 somthing years old Isolde but we all are willing to make concession for a good looking more mature Isolde anyhow.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

suteetat said:


> Good looking is a bit different from looking the part though. Afterall, most lead soprano roles for example are supposed to be most likely in their teens to early 20's at most, a lot of lead tenors as well for that matter, I think. Even Marschallin or Contessa Almalviva are probably only in their mid-late 20's or early 30's at most. Exactly how young could Netrebko be passed as? Is there is any soprano who could sing Butterfly that look anything like a petite little 16 years old Japanese geisha? I guess Yin Huang came the closest in a movie version but she was only able to sing it in a studio and not live at the time when she made the movie. I can't remember how old Isolde is supposed to be and may be Varnay at the beginning of her career probably could pull it off since she sang all the heavy Wagnerian role right from the beginning of her career. Even Meier, as good looking as she is, can't exactly pulled a youthful 20 somthing years old Isolde but we all are willing to make concession for a good looking more mature Isolde anyhow.


Freni made quite a good shot at Butterfly in Karajan's film directed by Ponelle.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

suteetat said:


> Good looking is a bit different from looking the part though. Afterall, most lead soprano roles for example are supposed to be most likely in their teens to early 20's at most, a lot of lead tenors as well for that matter, I think. Even Marschallin or Contessa Almalviva are probably only in their mid-late 20's or early 30's at most.


agreed. Some suspension of disbelief remains and it's not a problem. Even in films you tend to get teens played by actors in their 20s.

I always pegged Die Marshallin to be in her mid thirties and Contessa about 30.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

suteetat said:


> Is there is any soprano who could sing Butterfly that look anything like a petite little 16 years old Japanese geisha? I guess Yin Huang came the closest in a movie version but she was only able to sing it in a studio and not live at the time when she made the movie.


Of course, that's only assuming that all East Asians look "Japanese" to you....


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Of course, that's only assuming that all East Asians look "Japanese" to you....


No, closest in her case only because she was 20 and rather petite which give more illusion of being a 16 years old rather than say Freni who sang Butterfly well at least in studio but did not look anything like 16 years old girl.
Being Asian certainly helps her more than if she is a blond girl in Kimono for sure.Being Asian myself, I have pretty good idea what Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, etc etc looks like. Yoko Watanabe sang Butterfly very well, is Japanese but certainly does not look like 16 years old girl either. 
"came the closest" also does not mean that she was totally authentic looking 16 years old Japanese either so if you are going to nitpick, at least pick something worthwhile to nitpick about!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sparsity said:


> Of course it is. Just to take a random example, Miah Persson was a wonderful sight as Fiordiligi.


Yes but it is Mozart not Wagner! Why I much prefer to see Mozart's operas as at least they can be sung by young singers.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Hoffmann said:


> If the singer has reasonably competent acting skills, those skills combined with decent costumes and makeup go a long way toward assisting me with suspending disbelief. Acting, I think, is key.


Completely agree! Shouldn't encourage any more "singing sofas". Those who can't act at all should take up concert and recital singing instead as opera is musical theatre.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

suteetat said:


> No, closest in her case only because she was 20 and rather petite which give more illusion of being a 16 years old rather than say Freni who sang Butterfly well at least in studio but did not look anything like 16 years old girl.
> Being Asian certainly helps her more than if she is a blond girl in Kimono for sure.Being Asian myself, I have pretty good idea what Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, etc etc looks like. Yoko Watanabe sang Butterfly very well, is Japanese but certainly does not look like 16 years old girl either.
> "came the closest" also does not mean that she was totally authentic looking 16 years old Japanese either so if you are going to nitpick, at least pick something worthwhile to nitpick about!


Sorry. I live in the US, and I'm sick of people here lumping them all together.

I was on a domestic flight last year, and an elderly Japanese woman was on-board. She didn't speak any English, and the flight attendants wanted to tell her that she would need to pick up her luggage at the next airport before continuing on. So they run straight to the nearest Asians (who were Chinese) to ask them if they could talk to her. Given the history of tensions and other problems between the two countries, one should know not to do such a thing.


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## sparsity (Apr 10, 2012)

davinci said:


> *Is the physical appearance of a singer a factor?*
> 
> Yes, if he's in a rock band.


Oh please. A show is a show. And good rock music is not inferior to any other kind of music.

I've seen Angela Gheorghiu and Isabel Leonard in recital, and their performances exuded eroticism--I loved it. I love to see beautiful women perform!

Let's not forget that opera should be sold not as a high-brow form of 'art', but as entertainment for all. Stuffy attitudes towards opera is the main reason why whenever I go to the opera I see only senior citizens.


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## sparsity (Apr 10, 2012)

I live in an extremely diverse place (the Bay Area) and while it is relatively easy for me to tell apart Chinese from Koreans from Japanese, I can understand why it can be hard for others, and it is not a big deal if you take a Japanese for a Korean or vice versa. Why are you so 'sick' about it?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

sparsity said:


> I live in an extremely diverse place (the Bay Area) and while it is relatively easy for me to tell apart Chinese from Koreans from Japanese, I can understand why it can be hard for others, and it is not a big deal if you take a Japanese for a Korean or vice versa. Why are you so 'sick' about it?


It's not the "being able to tell" "not being able to tell" that bothers me, it's the idea that it doesn't make any significant difference. I hate to see those who talk about "ignorant Americans" proven correct.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

sparsity said:


> I live in an extremely diverse place (the Bay Area) and while it is relatively easy for me to tell apart Chinese from Koreans from Japanese, I can understand why it can be hard for others, and it is not a big deal if you take a Japanese for a Korean or vice versa. Why are you so 'sick' about it?


I've lived in SanFran myself, at one time worked for a Japanese company and spent plenty of time there (mostly the Tokyo-Yokahama area) and then worked for a Korean firm, traveled to Korea, Vietnam, Thailand.

Recognizing various Asian ethnic backgrounds in people is a bit tricky, subtle differences in facial construction and skin color and so on. I've always found it best to not jump to conclusions and consider someone "Japanese" because they might indeed turn out to be "Chinese" and of course, within both of these general Asian groups there are several sub-groups.

Most of us in the West, especially America (to a lesser degree Canada, England, European countries, Australia or NZ, etc -- anyway, we're pretty much used to the melting pot of ethnic backgrounds, being "Heinz 57" variety. Myself I'm from, lemme see, German, Irish, Scottish, English, French, Cherokee, and Netherlands Jewish backgrounds with I'm certain other history tossed into the pot. So we blend and we're therefore not very astute about learning to tell various Asian backgrounds apart, Japanese vs Chinese vs Indonesian vs whatever.

Nor should we care or give it a second's thought. It should not matter at all. Now if someone wan't to hang a sign on his/her neck that says "Look at me I'm Chinese!" or whatever, that's their business but we don't need to join in that fingerpointing game.

We're pretty accustomed to having Anglo women sing Butterfly simply because there are fewer Asian opera singers around than there are Anglo and the opera is performed lots more than it's possible if seeing the "correct" racial person sing the part.

Hey, Aida is supposed to be Ethiopian, so are we only supposed to have African-American women sing the role? Equally silly.

Heck, I've seen black Susannas, Asian Figaros, and so on. It shouldn't matter.

Nevertheless, I will hold to the general aspect that "looking the part" mostly via general age group or body mass does make a slight difference, especially if the opera's seen via DVD where there are closeups.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

With regards to Asians, one bit of trivia is that I doubt you will ever see an Asian Turandot. The reason is that for whatever reason Asian women never appear to have large voices. I've seen Asians with wide faces, short necks and stocky builds, perfect for producing a dramatic soprano voice but I've never heard even of a spinto Asian soprano. Always lyric. I have no answer for this. Maybe they have smaller resonation cavities in the face or weaker voice boxes. I welcome anyone who knows of an Asian soprano who can sing Verdi or Wagner.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I welcome anyone who knows of an Asian soprano who can sing Verdi or Wagner.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

tyroneslothrop said:


>


Well shut my mouth. I am glad to be proved wrong. She also seems a fine singer as well. It is a rare find I still contend.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Well shut my mouth. I am glad to be proved wrong. She also seems a fine singer as well. It is a rare find I still contend.


Yes, but my thinking is different than yours (re: physiology, etc.--BTW, I'm 100% Chinese). My wife, who is Russian, and I have had this off-and-on discussion about one of my favorite games, chess. My question has always been, why are Russians so good at chess? One finds them everywhere. One doesn't know embarrassment until you sit down in front of your employee's elementary school child in front of a game you've played for decades, and you fight him to a sweat-beading draw, to have him say, "I didn't know we were supposed to be playing seriously! Let's play again and I'll think about my moves!"  And from what other countries would actresses come whose first profession was as a chess master?







(from _Die Hard 5_)
Certainly it can't be because Russians are more intellectual or academic (although like many Russians, my own wife collects degrees like other people collect stamps). I believe that it is solely due to statistics. More Russians, even as girls such as the actress above, find it acceptable to take up chess. And while we have the same number of washouts as in any country, there are just that many more people who end up really good!

Well, this line of reasoning applies to asian opera singers. When was opera (Western opera) considered an acceptable profession in Asia? Operabase.com points that that in the Far East, there is about 1 opera performance per year per every 2,000,000 people! Doesn't sound like a good profession to me! :lol:


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> And from what other countries would actresses come whose first profession was as a chess master?
> View attachment 19683
> 
> (from _Die Hard 5_)


I looked at her bio ... made me wonder when she's going to start singing opera! (And starring, of course ...)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The young Caballe was thrilled when Karajan engaged her for Don Giovanni. She was less thrilled, however, When the contract arrived stating she should lose 33 pounds in the interim!


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

sparsity said:


> Let's not forget that opera should be sold not as a high-brow form of 'art', but as entertainment for all. Stuffy attitudes towards opera is the main reason why whenever I go to the opera I see only senior citizens.


I think opera and classical music in general are actually the more likely place where a person is allowed to excel based on their talent regardless of their look as far as entertainment industry is concerned. It may be considered high brow only becaues we actually expect them to deliver something and the standard can be very high because of the long history of excellence that have set the bar. 
I am not saying that other entertainment industries have no talent but certainly they allow people who rely more on their looks to make a major career.
Certainly beautiful performers enhance opera experience but it should not be the major factor and fortunately in opera, if they can't sing, they cannot fake their way into it. Recording company certainly try to use sex appeal and eroticism to promote certain performersjudging from CD covers nowaday. Casual buyers may pick up those CDs based on cover but ultimately they cannot hide behind their looks. 
Gheorghiu uses her looks to her advantage and it may get her a few more contracts and more money but if she could not sing well, I doubt that she would have a career like she has now.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> With regards to Asians, one bit of trivia is that I doubt you will ever see an Asian Turandot. The reason is that for whatever reason Asian women never appear to have large voices. I've seen Asians with wide faces, short necks and stocky builds, perfect for producing a dramatic soprano voice but I've never heard even of a spinto Asian soprano. Always lyric. I have no answer for this. Maybe they have smaller resonation cavities in the face or weaker voice boxes. I welcome anyone who knows of an Asian soprano who can sing Verdi or Wagner.


Large voice is rarer than small voice. I think number of Asian who considered classically train singing as a profession is going to be much much less than European or American, therefore number of large voice Asian is going to be that much rarer as well.
Saying that, there are definitely a few lyrico spinto/dramatic soprano that are Asian that I have heard. There was a Japanese soprano that sang Verdi's requeim with Chicago Symphony/Eisenbach at Ravinia Festival in mid 1990's. I can't remember her name though. There are a few locally here as well that I have heard in the last few years but unlikely to have any kind of significant international career but at least the natural voice is definitely lyrico spinto rather than lyric soprano.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Yes, but my thinking is different than yours (re: physiology, etc.--BTW, I'm 100% Chinese). My wife, who is Russian, and I have had this off-and-on discussion about one of my favorite games, chess. My question has always been, why are Russians so good at chess? etc etc


I think it's just that 1- there are lots of Russians to draw from, and 2-it's a traditional pastime for many Russians per the culture (why that's so I don't know, it's like some cultures seem to play cards more often).

There's nothing "special" about Russian ethnicity that might create more chess players, because 1- the Russian ethos is so varied anyway, and 2- Russians aren't smarter or dumber than anyone else.

Just responding to this as I've been an avid chessplayer most of my life. As a teen I was a local whiz, winning tourneys and advancing through the ranks (I was considered a dangerous opponent with the Sicilian defense, my fave). Never quite made it to the US Master level however, because I soon discovered two other things: 1- girls, 2- pool shooting. Item #1 required my skills at item #2 to bankroll. You can make a heckuva lot more money playing pool than chess, at least in the US. And, of course, girls are more likely to be hanging out in bars than in chess parlors. And yes, I also played formal pool tourneys, but bar games is where I made the cash, enough to finance my collegiate pocket money. (Want to play a little 3-ball, say 10 bucks per rack, double up each reset?)

Of course there are inherent risks to playing pool for money in bars, and believe me, I've been there. But that's another story from back in my "bad boy" era, ha ha.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

suteetat said:


> etc etc Certainly beautiful performers enhance opera experience but it should not be the major factor and fortunately in opera, if they can't sing, they cannot fake their way into it. etc etc


I think this sentence describes the situation perfectly. Physical appearance helps in opera but it cannot be the determining factor. Remember Charlotte Church? I remember when she was about 18-19 there was this big lifesize cardboard cutout poster of her in a slinky dress that was displayed in the classical section of a large local CD music store (before the internet destroyed such walk-in stores). Naturally I wanted to take the cardboard photo of her home with me, ha ha -- she was damned cute. But unfortunately she sounded too much like Minnie Mouse and her classical singing career went bust.

By the way, some of you may glean from my postings that I tend to get crushes easily on pretty female opera singers. True, true. Although 99% of these infatuations are mental, never get past the whimsical level, and come and go rapidly, I freely admit to having a breezy romantic heart when it comes to "imaginary playmates". Genuine romances are much fewer and in the category of "real" as opposed to "other". My girlfriend is well aware of this and teases me about how I fall in "love" ("lust"?) with some ravenhaired and mysterious-appearing barmaid or TV actress, several per week it seems.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

katdad said:


> I think it's just that 1- there are lots of Russians to draw from, and 2-it's a traditional pastime for many Russians per the culture (why that's so I don't know, it's like some cultures seem to play cards more often).
> 
> There's nothing "special" about Russian ethnicity that might create more chess players, because 1- the Russian ethos is so varied anyway, and 2- Russians aren't smarter or dumber than anyone else.
> 
> ...


Aside from the pool shooting thing, which I find completely shocking (I mean, there might be children reading this!), the answer to the question about Russians being such great chess players might be answered in part by the sentence:

_Never quite made it to the US Master level however, because I soon discovered two other things: 1- girls, 2- pool shooting._

I think Americans in general  - there certainly are many exceptions, of course - have more distractions and tend to be less disciplined than other cultures. Another example: I play bridge, and have played since high school. I played all through college, which was fairly common in those days (late 60s/early 70s), the problem now is finding people who play. I mentioned teaching the game to one of my nephews who lives locally (he's 23 and very bright), who liked the concept, but when I told him that the complexity and different conventions (probably analagous to chess in many ways) can take a couple of years to master, he told me his attention span was too short, and went back to studying his phone.

Another thought is that the old Soviet system was alert to any and all ways that they could compete and gain prestige internationally - so kids were encouraged to play and talented players were provided government subsidy and allowed time to excel. Considering there wasn't much that qualified as 'fun' under the Soviets, chess looked pretty good - and was fun. I would guess that it became part of the culture. Here in the U.S. - not so much. Chess? Bridge? Why aren't you out playing football like a normal kid?


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Sorry, I guess that was way off the subject of singers' physical appearances. I tend to be impulsive...


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

In terms of weight, it doesn't really concern me - if the voice is right and the singer is communicating energy, character and emotion then to me personally weight is irrelevant. I find incredibly sad how weight can be such a turn off if he singer is singing and otherwise performing to a high standard. 

Age can irk me a little if the casting is extreme. I don't mind some liberties as I keep an open mind but for example, I forget the opera but a pairing of characters - father and son - in which the actors looked virtually the same age - was the father cast young or the son old? The performance was excellent and I enjoyed it immensely but it did throw me until I got used to it.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

katdad said:


> By the way, some of you may glean from my postings that I tend to get crushes easily on pretty female opera singers. True, true.


eh, don't we all?


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

DavidA said:


> The young Caballe was thrilled when Karajan engaged her for Don Giovanni. She was less thrilled, however, When the contract arrived stating she should lose 33 pounds in the interim!


I wonder if von Karajan would have offered a role to Pavarotti on the stipulation that he lose 33 pounds. I rather suspect not.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

katdad said:


> ... By the way, some of you may glean from my postings that I tend to get crushes easily on pretty female opera singers. True ...





deggial said:


> eh, don't we all?


Er. No. :lol:

..........


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

sospiro said:


> Er. No. :lol:
> 
> ..........


you know what I meant: pretty singers of our favoured gender


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

deggial said:


> you know what I meant: pretty singers of our favoured gender


Er. No. :lol:

.......................


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MAuer said:


> I wonder if von Karajan would have offered a role to Pavarotti on the stipulation that he lose 33 pounds. I rather suspect not.


Note that Pav sang for HvK on the audio Butterfly. But on the video there is Domingo. Wonder why?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Noted that the most recent Cardiff Singer of the World, Valentina Naforniţă, would not be out of place as a lead in a in a Hollywood movie.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

sospiro said:


> Er. No. :lol:
> 
> .......................


so there's no eyecandy about Mr. Keenleyside then? I doubt what katdad meant by _crush_ in regards to a singer who has no bearing on our daily life is akin to a crush on an available friend, acquaintance, co-worker etc. At least that's the way I took it.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

deggial said:


> so there's no eyecandy about Mr. Keenleyside then? I doubt what katdad meant by _crush_ in regards to a singer who has no bearing on our daily life is akin to a crush on an available friend, acquaintance, co-worker etc. At least that's the way I took it.


Correct. My "crushes" (at my age) are only a playful glance at a cute actress or celeb or whomever, and of course, an occasional cute barmaid. Never anything genuine, as I'm now in a committed relationship w. my live-in girlfriend.

But when "available" I'd certainly be interested in transferring a simple "crush" into a dating relationship after some chat to see what's possible. As with any chance occasion, most times it's nothing -- the other person is in a relationship or just not interested. Or, after getting acquanted with her, I quickly realize she's not for me and back quietly away, no harm, no foul.

For a long time my "major crush" has been Natalie Portman, based both on her being gorgeous and also super smart. This should indicate how "serious" my crushes usually are. Or are not.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Hoffmann said:


> Sorry, I guess that was way off the subject of singers' physical appearances. I tend to be impulsive...


Not a problem. A certain amount of thread drift is expected. Yes I forgot-- the Soviet system subsidized potential chess whizzes.

I also liked bridge but you've got to get together 3 other people, 2x the number needed for chess. But pool? Well, there's a game in nearly every bar you venture inside, and people seemingly eager to donate some of their pocket money to me (oh, I forgot, family forum... "hire me to teach them fine points of billiards"). But I'll still grab an occasional game of chess at a local pub. Problem is, I'm not bragging but I've kept up my chess game pretty well and I tend to win a lot of impromptu games, which becomes quickly tiresome for the opponent. I used to play poker too, once per month a reasonably high stakes game with pals. Then for some strange reason they stopped inviting me...

Out playing football? Naw, I'll glance at the game on TV while playing another 20-buck game of 8-ball. And when younger, instead of football, I'd be out at the pistol range (yeah, I won some matches at that, too).


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Hoffmann said:


> Another thought is that the old Soviet system was alert to any and all ways that they could compete and gain prestige internationally - so kids were encouraged to play and talented players were provided government subsidy and allowed time to excel. Considering there wasn't much that qualified as 'fun' under the Soviets, chess looked pretty good - and was fun. I would guess that it became part of the culture. Here in the U.S. - not so much. Chess? Bridge? Why aren't you out playing football like a normal kid?


I think I mentioned this to you but if not, I'm mentioning it to everyone now. When my wife was a very young child, they ran her through the Russian machine that determines if you are a ping-pong ball or a pair of shoes. Well, they determined that she was a pianist and off she went to the dedicated music school. This is when she was almost 4yo. Well, by 5yo, she gave a recital at the Russian Embassy in East Berlin. We have the B&W picture of her barely peeping over the top of the grand piano with a big ole lit candelabra on top as she played the full 15 mins of Beethoven's _Moonlight Sonata_ by memory. The 8-hour days of practicing (not joking) finally came to an abrupt end when she was 7yo and she developed a tremor in one of her hands. The stress of the long days practicing and the absolutely nazi-ish piano teachers (with their rulers to smack little fingers with and always threatening to slam the cover down on your hand if you made a mistake) finally took its toll and the tremor was the equivalent of a mental breakdown. Well, when the tremor happened, that was it. She was kicked out of the music school and able to finally rejoin the ranks of little girls. So there you have it. The old Communist system for creating stars... or breaking you while trying.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

I do remember the story, but like many things, had forgotten it. You're right - there was no fun to be had under the Soviets.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

deggial said:


> *so there's no eyecandy about Mr. Keenleyside then?* I doubt what katdad meant by _crush_ in regards to a singer who has no bearing on our daily life is akin to a crush on an available friend, acquaintance, co-worker etc. At least that's the way I took it.


Of course!!  Sorry just winding you up!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Noted that the most recent Cardiff Singer of the World, Valentina Naforniţă, would not be out of place as a lead in a in a Hollywood movie.


But also note that in the current competition the American mezzo entry who is amazing and might well win,is enormous.
And no, it should make no difference in opera what size the person may be. You don't get many people with large voices who are slim---except among basses.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

moody said:


> But also note that in the current competition the American mezzo entry who is amazing and might well win, is enormous.
> And no, it should make no difference in opera what size the person may be. You don't get many people with large voices who are slim---except among basses.


Yes, Jamie Barton who has won the Cardiff Singer Song Prize is rather on the large size

And two rather lovely basses to prove your point










Ruggero Raimondi and Grigory Soloviov


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

It's important. I have seen many operas on video, and I had a hard time believing women in their 40s (or older) as the sweet innocent girls.

As for weight: I usually want my singers slim and pretty, but if it comes to Wagner, I'd rather take a huge soprano who has the right voice over a certain overrated (but thin) singer who ruined multiple Ring videos and who was clearly struggling and sometimes making very strange and dissonant notes.
For example, Lisa Gasteen in the London Ring was really big, but she was a great and passionate Brünnhilde. I could forgive her weight.

When it comes to a Mimi, Butterfly or a Violetta, I don't compromise at all. Cute little geisha girls and people dying of consumption can't be fat.

In basses it's ok. Most bass roles are big, bearlike guys anyway. As long as they don't sing Don Giovanni or some other supposed hottie.

Then there are singers who are tiny (like Cappuccilli or Schicoff) but when they start to sing, they sort of _grow_.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> But also note that in the current competition the American mezzo entry who is amazing and might well win,is enormous.
> And no, it should make no difference in opera what size the person may be. You don't get many people with large voices who are slim---except among basses.


I note Jamie won the whole thing. A tremendous singer. She's certainly built like a sight screen though, which will let her out of certain parts, maybe. The witch was great fun! Sense of humour. Really great programme too.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sieglinde said:


> It's important. I have seen many operas on video, and I had a hard time believing women in their 40s (or older) as the sweet innocent girls.
> 
> As for weight: I usually want my singers slim and pretty, but if it comes to Wagner, I'd rather take a huge soprano who has the right voice over a certain overrated (but thin) singer who ruined multiple Ring videos and who was clearly struggling and sometimes making very strange and dissonant notes.
> For example, Lisa Gasteen in the London Ring was really big, but she was a great and passionate Brünnhilde. I could forgive her weight.
> ...


Do you know that it takes a very big voice to be able to manage Madama Butterfly.
Also probably the greatest Don Giovanni on record was Ezio Pinza the bass. in more recent times Cesare Siepi also a bass and very glamourous men they were .


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DavidA said:


> I note Jamie won the whole thing. A tremendous singer. She's certainly built like a sight screen though, which will let her out of certain parts, maybe. The witch was great fun! Sense of humour. Really great programme too.


Mind you, I thought the argentine singer was fantastic in the Rossini. And with her looks? As someone said: Book her!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> Do you know that it takes a very big voice to be able to manage Madama Butterfly.
> Also probably the greatest Don Giovanni on record was Ezio Pinza the bass. in more recent times Cesare Siepi also a bass and very glamourous men they were .


Freni was a great Butterfly - and looked the part too when made up!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

katdad said:


> Does the appearance of the singer affect your appreciation of the opera? If the singer is much too heavy or way too old for the role, do you find it difficult to "connect" with the performance?


Not so long ago, I saw the ROH _Eugene Onegin_ via Emerging Pictures' Opera in Cinema. Afterwards, I sent a note to a friend on it:


> Between yesterday and October 19th will be my season of Eugene Onegin, as I will be watching 5 performances of 4 different productions, two of which will be featuring Netrebko. Regarding the ROH production I saw yesterday (via Opera in Cinema although this performance was also apparently broadcast on BBC 4 last Saturday), well, I can say at least that EO was wonderfully sung. The music was so-so and I just was compelled on the production, although the sets were nice and there was a nice theme of memories which the director had inferred from the libretto and had wanted to call out by weaving it into the production. The ROH is definitely also foliowing in the footsteps of the Met's Live in HD with interviews and discussions during intermissions. They also started with some discussions before the first act begins as well.
> 
> Stoyanova and Keenlyside sang Tatyana and Onegin brilliantly, *however as they are both in their early and late fifties respectively, they are too old for their roles of a 13 year old girl and 26 year old young man, respectively. Even Bresnik who plays an 18yo Lensky is much younger than Stoyanova, so the entire thing was not very believable*. Instead, they employed professional ballet dancers (obviously from the Royal Ballet) to play their parts on stage while they sang to the side and around the dancers. This gave it a dreamy quality, which makes it entirely a different story--one of lost youth perhaps rather than Pushkin's/Tchaikovsky's tale of the ultimate woe of a selfish young man. In fact, because people in the West don't understand Russian social conventions, I think the dreamlike quality had a further negative consequence. I think most in the audience who didn't know the story would not have understood that Onegin's rejection of Tatyana was neither due to lofty sentiments nor self-deprecation, but on the contrary, he simply felt her unworthy of him and too young--the latter being something that definitely couldn't be conveyed in this production with older principals. It was a lovely ballet though. As one acquaintance who I met at the cinema I happened to be attending pointed out, because of the Royal Ballet tie-in, the dancing was very good. That said, I just didn't feel the overall production worked--especially Keenlyside's soulful looks in the first act, when instead he should instead have been expressing disdainfulness.


Jonas Kaufmann shed insight on this change in what opera-goers look for in performances in an interview months ago (see *0:35 - 7:30*):


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Sieglinde said:


> In basses it's ok. Most bass roles are big, bearlike guys anyway. As long as they don't sing Don Giovanni or some other supposed hottie.


but I thought some innocent young girls really go for the big bear type!

For Butterfly, I am not sure how many singers could sing the role in theatre well and actually look the part.
Freni never sang Butterfly in theatre as she think that it could damage her voice too much and this is the lady who sang
Aida a few times. Unless she sang it right at the end of career but I am not awared of any that I know of.May be De los Angeles and the young Scotto, perhaps.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

suteetat said:


> For Butterfly, I am not sure how many singers could sing the role in theatre well and actually look the part.


What about Ying Huang?


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

tyroneslothrop said:


> What about Ying Huang?


I did mention her previously in this thread but got shot down for not being able to differentiate Chinese from Japanese!
Mine you, she sang in a studio for the movie when she was 20. At that stage, I doubt that she could sing it live
in an opera house wihtout wrecking her voice. I have not heard anything more by her except for one recital disc and one Tan Dun's CD,
what is she up to nowaday?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

suteetat said:


> I did mention her previously in this thread but got shot down for not being able to differentiate Chinese from Japanese!
> Mine you, she sang in a studio for the movie when she was 20. At that stage, I doubt that she could sing it live
> in an opera house wihtout wrecking her voice. I have not heard anything more by her except for one recital disc and one Tan Dun's CD,
> what is she up to nowaday?


You can get the info on Wikipedia,she sings no heavy parts at all.


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## rborganist (Jan 29, 2013)

Physical appearance came be a factor. It's not usually a problem for parts sung by coloratura sopranos, as light voices can come in size 4 bodies, though size 8 is probably healthier. The problem comes with the spinto and dramatic parts, which quite simply require considerable lung power to produce the vocal heft to soar over a late Verdi or Wagnerian orchestration. Deborah Voight is singing quite well even after a fairly dramatic weight loss, but she is not a size four; she's probably a ten or twelve. If you are as large as Monserrat Caballe, you probably shouldn't sing Mimi or Violetta, because you will not make a convincing consumptive. No one would ever describe Marily Horne or James McCracken as svelt, but when Horne was singing Carmen in the early 70s, she came out on stage, opened her mouth, and 50 pounds instantly dropped away, her timbre was so sexy. Probably the most incredible moment of the evening, though, came at the end of the Flower Song when McCracken actually sang the high B flat pianissimo, and no one could figure out how he did it (nor did it matter; it was simply gorgeous). Zinka Milanov was no actress, and she was definitely portly, but who cared? When she floated those high passages in Trovatore or Aida, it was the singing that mattered. And that is just three examples of great singing.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

rborganist said:


> as light voices can come in size 4 bodies,


which soprano is a size 4?


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

deggial said:


> which soprano is a size 4?


Angela Gheorghiu at one time was no more than a 6. She might have even been a 4 back in '90.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

ha, apt picture! madness! she's quite skinny, true. How about Ciofi? she scared me in her Lucia.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

deggial said:


> ha, apt picture! madness! she's quite skinny, true. How about Ciofi? she scared me in her Lucia.


Yep. She looks like a 6 too:








Funny thing, but Angela got her first break playing Mimì. I guess that the stage director got so excited that he would have a Mimì that actually looked consumptive! :lol: On the other hand, Patrizia won't play her first Mimì until next year.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Don't forget that US size 6 is equivalent to British size 10.

Ciofi looks like a US size 4 - British size 8. She is minute.

Natalie Dessay is also very slim.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Barbra Bonney, Kathleen Battle, Dawn Upshaw, Hildegard Behrens, Maria Ewing, also come to mind for small ladies.
A bit more full figure but definitely not fat or overweight in my opinion, Elisabeth Futral, young Ruth Ann Swenson, Catherine Malfitano. I would think Gheorghiu would be in this category too but I am not sure. Opera stage tends to reduce weight by
20-30 lbs, I think


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

suteetat said:


> Barbra Bonney, Maria Ewing also come to mind for small ladies.


tiny, indeed, and cute as hell 



> Opera stage tends to reduce weight by 20-30 lbs, I think


does it?! and does the DVD then put them back on? what's the mechanism of weight reduction via the stage?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Don't forget that US size 6 is equivalent to British size 10.


indeed I forgot! that's a bit better


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Talking about slim soprano's:









It's Valentina Naforniţă. She won Cardiff 2011









Heard and saw her sing Musetta in Boheme. Very promising indeed.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Callas was quite svelte during her famous mid/late 1950s La Scala seasons


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

deggial said:


> does it?! and does the DVD then put them back on? what's the mechanism of weight reduction via the stage?


You know, they say TV adds 10 lbs but gigantic stage always shrink any lady down a few sizes.
Nilsson and Sutherland certainly are not small ladies but in costume, on stage, they look 'not too big' enough.
Unfortunately camera angle destroy that illusion readily!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

suteetat said:


> ... Opera stage tends to reduce weight by 20-30 lbs, I think


I would have agreed with you in the past but when I saw Anna Caterina Antonacci as Cassandra in _Les Troyens_ she seemed to dominate the stage but I was lucky enough to meet her in her dressing room afterwards & she was much smaller than she seemed on stage.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

sospiro said:


> I would have agreed with you in the past but when I saw Anna Caterina Antonacci as Cassandra in _Les Troyens_ she seemed to dominate the stage but I was lucky enough to meet her in her dressing room afterwards & she was much smaller than she seemed on stage.


Would that be more because of her stage presence? I think some singers have that in spade and when they are on stage, you will notice them regardless of where they are and how many people are on stage. For me, Freni is like that. In Fedora, in Boheme, she just needs to be there and you will notice. Interestingly though, in Falstaff which is really more of an ensemble opera, she did not standout as much as in other operas when I saw her.

I saw Anna Caterina Antonacci only once several years ago and she was impressive in La Clemenza di Tito as Vitellia and really brought the house down with her Non più di fiori. Certainly her stage presence was very striking then as well.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

suteetat said:


> Would that be more because of her stage presence? I think some singers have that in spade and when they are on stage, you will notice them regardless of where they are and how many people are on stage. For me, Freni is like that. In Fedora, in Boheme, she just needs to be there and you will notice. Interestingly though, in Falstaff which is really more of an ensemble opera, she did not standout as much as in other operas when I saw her.
> 
> I saw Anna Caterina Antonacci only once several years ago and she was impressive in La Clemenza di Tito as Vitellia and really brought the house down with her Non più di fiori. Certainly her stage presence was very striking then as well.


Yes it was because of her stage presence. She had such charisma I found myself looking at her even when the fabulous Fabio Capitanucci (Chorebe) was singing. Gotta to be a first for me.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> Yes it was because of her stage presence. She had such charisma I found myself looking at her even when the fabulous Fabio Capitanucci (Chorebe) was singing. Gotta to be a first for me.


Ha so did I. And then I remember thinking - who was that lovely baritone that I vaguely noticed in the first couple of acts... Will pay more attention when I get round to watching it on YT.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

suteetat said:


> I saw Anna Caterina Antonacci only once several years ago and she was impressive in La Clemenza di Tito as Vitellia and really brought the house down with her Non più di fiori. Certainly her stage presence was very striking then as well.


I don't like her voice  still Non piu di fiori is a great thing to wake up to when you're feeling sorry for yourself, heh heh.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

deggial said:


> I don't like her voice  still Non piu di fiori is a great thing to wake up to when you're feeling sorry for yourself, heh heh.


Initially the first act, she was ok. She acted well but all the buzz was really more about Joyce di Donato. That was right when di Donato was on the verge of becoming a major star. But when non piu di fiori came, she really was in her element there and it was a big surprise to everyone, I thought. My opinion of her went up significantly!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

ah, nicely done, making a splash with her last aria  still, her voice seems too matronly for me. Also don't see JDD as Sesto but don't mind me too much, I'm compelled to listen to all Vitellias


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Despite what some opera fans may say, it's nothing new that audiences respond to a singer's presence on stage, whether through their acting and behavior, how they carry themselves, or yes, to their physical attributes. Wasn't it Verdi that had that opera where its first performance was boo'ed because one of the principals was considered too fat by the audience for their role? Some would like to think that audiences had so much imagination in the past to overlook these things, but while that may have been true to some extent in the 20th century, it certainly was less true in the 19th century.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ you're right. I'm reading Mozart's letters and even he makes note of this and that singer's stage presence, acting abilities and even looks, so it does go all the way back.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Wasn't it Verdi that had that opera where its first performance was boo'ed because one of the principals was considered too fat by the audience for their role?


Yes, it was the premiere of La Traviata - so fair enough really.

I just caught myself the other day being completely influenced by looks. I was trawling through YouTube looking for compete operas. I checked one out - I think it was Trovatore or Ernani or something - and when I realised that the tenor was about 150 kgs and had a face disappearing in folds of fat, I didn't bother.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

I saw Berlioz's _Romeo and Juliet_ once, and I hate to sound shallow but... Before we ever see Juliet, there's much singing and dancing in praise of her great beauty, and there was this big to do with her approaching a curtain through which you could see her in silhouette; and finally at long last when they curtain was pulled away... Juliet was fat and unattractive. A big let down.

Romeo wasn't any better. He was about the same height and build as Juliet (that is, about 5'2", 200 lbs.), and was probably about 40 years old. But the real kicker was his FULL BEARD. I mean, the least you can do when playing Romeo is shave your beard, right?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

apricissimus said:


> Romeo wasn't any better. He was about the same height and build as Juliet (that is, about 5'2", 200 lbs.), and was probably about 40 years old. But the real kicker was his FULL BEARD. I mean, the least you can do when playing Romeo is shave your beard, right?


:lol: oh dear! I'm with you, mate, no beards on Romeos. Hey, the first Marschallin I saw on 'tube, I kept wondering if she was Octavian's auntie (I didn't know the plot at the time and there were no subtitles).


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yes, it was the premiere of La Traviata - so fair enough really.
> 
> I just caught myself the other day being completely influenced by looks. I was trawling through YouTube looking for compete operas. I checked one out - I think it was Trovatore or Ernani or something - and when I realised that the tenor was about 150 kgs and had a face disappearing in folds of fat, I didn't bother.


That's why the best seat in many opera houses are the front balcony! Very good sound and if you don't bring binoculars, you 
won't see all the skin fold and 150 kg there would look quite a bit smaller than 150kg at 5th row center


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I know this isn't the Broadway musical forum, but I don't entirely agree with this statement:

*We are already being tortured enough by Hollywood and overpaid actors/actress who know nothing about the real craft. Recently the movie Les Miserables is a good example. Of all the big hollywood star lead characters, was there anybody who was capable of decent singing? Too bad we are being force to accept that singing is only secondary even in a musical and general public does not seem to know any better. I hope that will not be the case for opera as well. *

I saw the _Les Miserables_ movie twice in the theater; I had seen the show on Broadway years before. I loved the show, and I loved the movie. They were two quite different experiences. I wasn't really expecting the singing in the movie to come up to the level of the singing in the Broadway production anyway -- and I didn't actually think it was all bad. Anne Hathaway is not a singer, true, and neither is Russell Crowe. I thought Russell did a good job with his songs, though, and I thought Samantha Barks as Eponine had an excellent Broadway voice. Some of Valjean's music was a little out of Hugh Jackman's range, but it's clear he has a fine voice. When he spoke some of his phrases (partly, I think, because they would have taken his voice up too high), I thought the effect very moving.

As for the weight issue among opera singers, I think we should be careful of falling into the trap of thinking that an opera character has to be slim to experience love, romance, adventure, etc. In real life, do these experiences come only come to the svelte? I think not. A Met broadcast commentator summed it up best when he made an ironic remark along the lines of, "Of course, Gilda can't be plump. I mean, no jester would have a fat daughter." :lol:

If we're going to speak more generally about physical appearance (and not just about weight), I feel it helps if a singer is...not necessarily handsome or beautiful in the conventional sense, but in some way striking to look at. Joan Sutherland was, to me, a striking woman -- she really looked like a nineteenth-century heroine. Another "striking" opera singer is the baritone Ludovic Tezier, with his big, tall build, sharp features, and longish hair (at least, his hair was long in the Met's _Lucia di Lammermoor_). Sometimes it helps to have almost oversized facial features, so that the audience can more easily "read" your expression from a distance. Or it can help to have one facial feature that's prominent and memorable -- Joan Sutherland's jaw, for example, besides being good for projecting the sound (as someone else here said), gave her face character.

|


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

It may also be worth noting that standards of beauty have noticeably changed over the past two centuries. The ideal Victorian beauty may have had a tiny waist, but otherwise, she'd probably be considered rather chubby if judged by modern standards. And some of those Baroque beauties were really quite plump. I'm wondering if 18th and 19th century opera audiences would have found a generously-proportioned prima donna to be attractive, whereas we'd regard her as unappealingly fat.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sospiro said:


> I would have agreed with you in the past but when I saw Anna Caterina Antonacci as Cassandra in _Les Troyens_ she seemed to dominate the stage but I was lucky enough to meet her in her dressing room afterwards & she was much smaller than she seemed on stage.


With the size of some sopranos you would be lucky to find room on the stage!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

DavidA said:


> With the size of some sopranos you would be lucky to find room on the stage!


a good excuse for getting closer to their bosoms :angel:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

YES
I saw Jane Eaglen as Turandot and found myself grinning and almost 
laughing at times, she was so big.
She sang great though.
But the costume hanging off her derriere was too much to take


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## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

For me it's pretty simple. I always prefer an opera to sound good. I want great singing and as far as I can tell, that necessitates having physical bulk.

Do sumo aficionados - and they exist, in their fanatical millions - worry that their heroes don't look like svelt samurai?

If I want to look at gorgeous bodies (and there's nothing wrong with that ) I'll watch some Hollywood movie.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

true
but from one extreme to the other?


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

I guess these days we want everything...great voice, stage animal and easy on the eye.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ very true! otherwise we're all going to listen to Rihanna instead.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I have to confess I'm totally biased and unfair when it comes to opera DVDs. If I put one I received from the library or Netflix on and I find the principals unappealing to watch, or the staging grotesque and repulsive, I turn it off, put it back in the box or wrapper and return it. To me, a DVD is primarily a visual medium. If I want to listen to the music carefully, I'll get a CD. Life is too short to watch 275 lb 50 year olds pretending to be sixteen year old waifs.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Yashin said:


> I guess these days we want everything...great voice, stage animal and easy on the eye.


In other words, Jonas Kaufmann.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

It depends on how you experience the opera. In a live performance you look a the bigger picture, often you don't see any details of the physical appearance, even if you have a good seat. 

Nowadays in DVD recordings much attention is spent on details. You rarely see the full stage. Sometimes this is disturbing, it's a completey different experience. During aria's the face of a singer is full screen, so you can not ignore how a singer looks. Sometimes it even breaks the magic of theatre. On the other hand, some singers look so damn good it's a plus.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

I primarily listen to opera where looks don't matter, but when I do watch it on DVD I will admit I am more interested if the female singers are at least somewhat attractive and fit their roles. Especially when the character is supposed to be "young and beautiful". 

I don't need them to all look like Netrebko or Garanca. Waltraud Meier is 57 years old (over 20 years older than myself) but she's still attractive and would be fine in an older Mother role but I don't want to see her playing an 18 year old. Same thing with Renee Fleming. She's 54 and still attractive to me as well. They don't need to be knockouts, but if I'm going to watch an opera it does help if they at least fit the character a little bit and are somewhat attractive. I can take a 28 year old playing an 18 year old if she's at least attractive, but 48 playing 18 is a little bit of a stretch.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

I guess some singers have that magical stage presence and others simply do not. Not sure why some look shifty on stage, eyes constantly searching for the conductor and always trying to face the front. Maybe it is training or nerves.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Personally, and perhaps due to the fact that my background is basically music and not theater, I don't care at all about the physical appearance of a singer. Not one iota.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I know this thread is specifically about opera singers looking appropriate for the characters they're portraying, but I was thinking today about to what extent a singer's looks determine whether or not we, the audience, "warm to" that singer -- just in general or, say, on the concert platform rather than the opera stage.

For me the most important factor is the singing, but if the singer is handsome/beautiful in addition to the vocal talent, then I think of that as the icing on the cake, and it adds to my admiration for them. Conversely, there's a certain male opera singer of recent times whose singing I just plain don't like, _and_ whose physical appearance turns me off. _But_ I can say without any hesitation whatsoever that if I did like his voice and musicianship, then it wouldn't matter in the slightest that I don't find him attractive. All I would care about is whether he could do a more or less convincing acting job in whatever part he was singing.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

To answer your question simply, yes the physical appearance of a singer today is definitely a factor, regardless of how you might personally feel about it.
The time is now, not the past, and audiences today for the most part want to believe, as well as hear a beautiful voice to go with it.
That's the way it is. The days of heavy stalwart Mimis are over no matter how good the voice because there's always going to be a fine voice to cast who also looks the part.
Being that opera is "theater" and a visual as well as audial art, audiences today want the whole package if they can get it, and they usually can. There's a lot of fine talent out there.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

_Il vero melomane è colui che, udendo una donna cantare in bagno, si avvicina al buco della serratura e vi pone l'orecchio_. (E. Stinchelli)

Well, hearing this heavenly voice, singing this heavenly aria, I can confidently say I would just approach the ear!.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> To answer your question simply, yes the physical appearance of a singer today is definitely a factor, regardless of how you might personally feel about it.
> The time is now, not the past, and audiences today for the most part want to believe, as well as hear a beautiful voice to go with it.
> That's the way it is. The days of heavy stalwart Mimis are over no matter how good the voice because there's always going to be a fine voice to cast who also looks the part.
> Being that opera is "theater" and a visual as well as audial art, audiences today want the whole package if they can get it, and they usually can. There's a lot of fine talent out there.


Basically, I agree with your post, though I'd hesitate to say that a soprano must necessarily have a waif-like figure to convince as Violetta or Mimi. If you look at today's top sopranos as well as ones of the recent past, it seems that many of them are heavier than current standards of beauty demand (i.e. a "model-slim" figure): Netrebko and Damrau come immediately to mind, and as far as the recent past is concerned I can name Renee Fleming (who looked somewhat plump for a time in her younger years), Ruth Ann Swenson, Patricia Racette, etc. I remember on a Met broadcast intermission discussion years ago, somebody mentioned Victoria de los Angeles having been such a convincing Mimi because, even though she wasn't exactly slender, she was somehow able to give a general impression of delicacy and frailty. While gaining weight doesn't actually increase voice size, the voice does need to be supported, and obviously the support has to come from the body. I'm not an opera singer myself, but having studied singing I'd venture to say that it isn't a good idea for an opera singer to let herself or himself get too thin, as doing so tends to cut down on the crucial "support."


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Yashin said:


> I guess some singers have that magical stage presence and others simply do not. Not sure why some look shifty on stage, eyes constantly searching for the conductor and always trying to face the front. Maybe it is training or nerves.


One of my biggest operatic pet peeves is when two singers are singing a duet, and they aren't even attempting to interact with each other. Instead, they're either looking straight ahead or down at the conductor.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

A clip from a recent interview with Jessye Norman on the subject.

For those in the UK, the full programme is on iPlayer.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> One of my biggest operatic pet peeves is when two singers are singing a duet, and they aren't even attempting to interact with each other. Instead, they're either looking straight ahead or down at the conductor.


Ugh! I so agree. It really pi**es me off. 
Fortunately today, along with demands for more realistic looks comes the school of acting as well as singing and there are many more singers who can emote rather than the old stand and deliver type who stare at the conductor while claiming passionate love to their partner.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Speaking of Jessye Norman: The singer may reign supreme when it comes to delivering the goods to an audience with her golden voice, but she sure leaves a lot to be desired in the book writing department. What a big snooze that one was!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

nina foresti said:


> Speaking of Jessye Norman: The singer may reign supreme when it comes to delivering the goods to an audience with her golden voice, but she sure leaves a lot to be desired in the book writing department. What a big snooze that one was!


Shame. I was tempted to get it in time for her book signing at ROH but didn't in the end.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Yes, we all love young singers to help us suspend our disbelief and truly believe that the soprano and tenor are hot for each other. Meanwhile, casting directors coax young singers into singing heavier roles just so we can have a sexy Tosca.
The singers wreck their voices and we all moan about the lack of great talent these days.

Oops. Awkward.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

to society: yes
to me: no. as long as they have a stellar set of cords and *excellent technique*, I couldn't give less of a damn what they look like


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Couac Addict said:


> Yes, we all love young singers to help us suspend our disbelief and truly believe that the soprano and tenor are hot for each other. Meanwhile, casting directors coax young singers into singing heavier roles just so we can have a sexy Tosca.
> The singers wreck their voices and we all moan about the lack of great talent these days.
> 
> Oops. Awkward.


What is your definition of "young?" Anna Netrebko is 43; Nina Stemme is 51; Sondra Radvanovsky and Jonas Kaufmann are both 45; and Anja Harteros is 42. All very attractive people and credible actors (and wonderful singers IMO); none of them in their 20s.


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm used to "the fat lady singing" but when it comes to love triangles in opera, I simply can't help but doubt the central character's sincerity a bit. One of my first opera memories involves Radames standing between an old and withered (though slender) Aida and a charming Amneris. Also I've seen:

• Onegin of forty-something and ugly vs. thirty-four-year-old Gremin
• Tamino resembling a well-fed hamster vs. Monostatos with a figure fit for ballet
• very plain Elisabeth Valois vs. beautiful and charismatic Princess Eboli (sung by Ekaterina Semenchuk, that says enough)

No offence, everyone mentioned here sang wonderfully. But the dissonance with the librettos!..


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MAuer said:


> What is your definition of "young?" Anna Netrebko is 43; Nina Stemme is 51; Sondra Radvanovsky and Jonas Kaufmann are both 45; and Anja Harteros is 42. All very attractive people and credible actors (and wonderful singers IMO); none of them in their 20s.


the point is, though, do they look young?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

DavidA said:


> the point is, though, do they look young?


You mean?

The point is do they look young with make up lightning 20 meters away from you?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Autumn Leaves said:


> • very plain Elisabeth Valois vs. beautiful and charismatic Princess Eboli (sung by Ekaterina Semenchuk, that says enough)
> .


The real princess Eboli is said to have been beautiful and charismatic.


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

Sloe said:


> The real princess Eboli is said to have been beautiful and charismatic.


But she had only one eye


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Autumn Leaves said:


> But she had only one eye


Not of importance.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> to society: yes
> to me: no. as long as they have a stellar set of cords and *excellent technique*, I couldn't give less of a damn what they look like


Agree 100%! Although I would add that, when one has fallen in lust with a beautiful voice, it's amazing how handsome the singer becomes, regardless of whether or not he is/was handsome by commonly accepted standards. I don't know whether men (or women attracted to women) have the same reaction to plain or average looking female singers with beautiful, seductive voices.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Agree 100%! Although I would add that, when one has fallen in lust with a beautiful voice, it's amazing how handsome the singer becomes, regardless of whether or not he is/was handsome by commonly accepted standards. I don't know whether men (or women attracted to women) have the same reaction to plain or average looking female singers with beautiful, seductive voices.


I would agree with you, but because of the double standard, I say your wrong.


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## Dupamplont (Nov 2, 2014)

Renee Fleming in her book THE INNER VOICE: THE MAKING OF A SINGER says about her own appearance: "My Slavic ancestry had proven to be a real benefit because _my wide, open face_ and the color of my voice made me distinctive."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Agree 100%! Although I would add that, when one has fallen in lust with a beautiful voice, it's amazing how handsome the singer becomes, regardless of whether or not he is/was handsome by commonly accepted standards. I don't know whether men (or women attracted to women) have the same reaction to plain or average looking female singers with beautiful, seductive voices.


It's like falling in love with someone and seeing for the first time how beautiful the person looks (or falling out of love and realizing that they're ugly!).

There's a limit to this romantic alchemy, however. I hit my limit when I saw Jane Eaglen as Isolde. She sang well, but I was constantly having to decide whether she was as stationary as a slag heap because she couldn't think of a reason to move or because she simply couldn't move.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> It's like falling in love with someone and seeing for the first time how beautiful the person looks (or falling out of love and realizing that they're ugly!).
> 
> There's a limit to this romantic alchemy, however. I hit my limit when I saw Jane Eaglen as Isolde. She sang well, but I was constantly having to decide whether she was as stationary as a slag heap because she couldn't think of a reason to move or because she simply couldn't move.


That can be a problem with larger singers but they are not condemned to be stationary. Just looks at Jessye Norman who was large but moved really well.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Talent trumps beauty... for men, at least.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mamascarlatti said:


> That can be a problem with larger singers but they are not condemned to be stationary. Just looks at Jessye Norman who was large but moved really well.


Hmmm... I suppose then that Jane just needed a bit of, ahhh, direction. But frankly? She needed to lose weight. Callas may have gone too far, but she believed she owed it to her art and to the public to look her best. And a little vanity isn't such a bad thing either.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Is the physical beauty of a _singer _of importance?

If I'm listening to them, absolutely not.

However, if I'm _watching_ them at the opera or a recital, I think that they should be in the best-possible shape and the most elegantly dressed.

Nothing irritates me more when going to the opera when people don't dress to the nines. I want everyone to be as glamorous, festive, and fun as possible-- and singers are no exception.

But, as fixated on looks as I admittedly am, I could never watch Netrebko do Donizetti because of that hindrance of a _voice_.

The gods give us all different tool sets. Work what you got-- and what you _don't_ have?-- work even harder. Be the best 'package' you can. Know thyself, and most importantly: respect thyself.

Okay, sermon over.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Is the physical beauty of a _singer _of importance?
> 
> If I'm listening to them, absolutely not.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Reverend, and bless you. And may I add one small admonition to singers?

"Respect thine audience. They've paid plenty to hear _and_ see thee."

Amen.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Thank you, Reverend, and bless you. And may I add one small admonition to singers?
> 
> "Respect thine audience. They've paid plenty to hear _and_ see thee."
> 
> Amen.


_Reverend?_

-- 'Sister _Sequin_,' you mean; or perhaps 'Sister Mary _Nun of the Above_.'
_
;D_


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> _Reverend?_
> 
> -- 'Sister _Sequin_,' you mean; or perhaps 'Sister Mary _Nun of the Above_.'
> _
> ;D_


Verily, there be nun such as thee.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Verily, there be nun such as thee.


"Let's have some nun! All for nun and nun for all! Party at Blair's house!"

There Will Be Flashbulbs


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Nothing irritates me more when going to the opera when people don't dress to the nines. I want everyone to be as glamorous, festive, and fun as possible-- and singers are no exception.


Nothing irritates me more than others telling me how I should dress at the opera. All I am there to do is listen and watch and enjoy. I HATE dressing up to the nines with a passion as it usually involves being uncomfortable and this gets in the way of my enjoyment. I can only guarantee to be clean and tidy and washed (trust me, important, I once spent two hours sitting next to a woman who was dressed up to the nines but stank of sweat, booze and nasty perfume).

Singers are different; everyone is looking at them and they should be attractively dressed. The other day at a concert everyone was looking great except the tenor whose trousers were too short and visibly unpressed. I got rather distracted by this, and so it turned out in the interval did my seat companion. But I don't care if they are in great physical shape or not as long as they sing well.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mamascarlatti said:


> Nothing irritates me more than others telling me how I should dress at the opera. All I am there to do is listen and watch and enjoy. I HATE dressing up to the nines with a passion as it usually involves being uncomfortable and this gets in the way of my enjoyment. I can only guarantee to be clean and tidy and washed (trust me, important, I once spent two hours sitting next to a woman who was dressed up to the nines but stank of sweat, booze and nasty perfume).
> 
> Singers are different; everyone is looking at them and they should be attractively dressed. The other day at a concert everyone was looking great except the tenor whose trousers were too short and visibly unpressed. I got rather distracted by this, and so it turned out in the interval did my seat companion. But I don't care if they are in great physical shape or not as long as they sing well.


I'm with you, mama s! With my wardrobe there are restaurants that wouldn't let me in (luckily I can't afford them anyway).

I leave dressing up to the beauties who can wear it well - like our friend the Marschallin.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Is the physical beauty of a _singer _of importance?
> 
> If I'm listening to them, absolutely not.
> 
> ...


Singers should dress up. But as I've paid I dress as I choose. Opera broadcasts I don't dress up at all.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

mamascarlatti said:


> Nothing irritates me more than others telling me how I should dress at the opera. All I am there to do is listen and watch and enjoy. I HATE dressing up to the nines with a passion as it usually involves being uncomfortable and this gets in the way of my enjoyment. I can only guarantee to be clean and tidy and washed (trust me, important, I once spent two hours sitting next to a woman who was dressed up to the nines but stank of sweat, booze and nasty perfume).
> 
> Singers are different; everyone is looking at them and they should be attractively dressed. The other day at a concert everyone was looking great except the tenor whose trousers were too short and visibly unpressed. I got rather distracted by this, and so it turned out in the interval did my seat companion. But I don't care if they are in great physical shape or not as long as they sing well.


I've never told anyone how to dress in my life--- ever; but I do know what I would like to 'see'-- which is something qualitatively and categorically distinct from that of telling people what to do.

(God knows how 'I' behave when someone tells 'me' to do something.)

I love seeing everyone having maximum fun and indulging themselves.

I see going to the opera kind of like going to a costume party; or even to a costume 'concert,' if you will--- like from a couple of years back when I saw a Southern California orchestra-- the Golden State Pops-- do a Halloween gala and the entire orchestra was dressed up in Halloween costumes (except for one viola player, who wore all black).

Its not something one 'has to' do, but wouldn't one 'want' to? The concert was fabulous fun. The concert master was a perfect recreation of George Michael from his late-eighties "Sex"-era videos: miror shades, the leather jacket, the scruff beard, tight jeans and all--- who was seated next to a Renaissance-fair maiden-- who was seated next to a lady dressed like Helena Bonham Carter in Sweeney Todd.

And so it is with the opera: I'm not saying that someone has to wear a new Versace-chic gown, but that its invigorating to see people have fun given one's own creativity and budget.

There's the 'show'-- and then there's the 'show within the show.' I just want to see people have fun; and of course to see it ALL.

;D


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I've never told anyone how to dress in my life--- ever; but I do know what I would like to 'see'-- which is something qualitatively and categorically distinct from that of telling people what to do.
> 
> (God knows how 'I' behave when someone tells 'me' to do something.)
> 
> ...


Fair enough, if you are the least bit interested in clothes. I'm not. I have more fun if I am comfortable.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

^^^^ what is 'fun'? - sigh! 

Excerpt from _Life in the Hermitage Part 53_. Hermit looks in the wardrobe. "What shall we wear today? Oh .... a shirt! Yes, for a change, let's wear a shirt. Oh, and trousers .... oh yes, there 'ave to be trousers too ..... and socks - dark grey ones or black ones? We shall be adventurous and wear the dark grey ones." No party frock today for the Hermit!

With so many decisions for a man to make about what to wear, is it any wonder that M&S have announced that clothing sales fell again for the 14th consecutive quarter?


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

well, the Hermit's suit is grey and crumpled. Exciting, hey, ladies?


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

Costume, yes. Body, no. Simple as.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

mamascarlatti said:


> Fair enough, if you are the least bit interested in clothes. I'm not. I have more fun if I am comfortable.


There is one color on clothing that doesn't much interest me at the opera: Venus-envy, chartreuse.


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## Ivansen (Aug 8, 2014)

Looks matter to me, particularly with DVDs and broadcasts. Of course, "good" looks is very different in opera compared to what Vogue thinks, and there are lots to be achieved through great and appealing acting. None of the top opera stars are Vogue-pretty in a picture, but many are mesmerising to look at when in motion. Also, importantly, looks are, to a certain degree, subjective.

I'd rather watch a DVD of Fleming, Netrebko or Dame Kiri in her pomp, than Sutherland, even though Sutherland is the superior singer. I might be a philistine, but opera is about seeing as well as hearing. To me, at least.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Ivansen said:


> Looks matter to me, particularly with DVDs and broadcasts. Of course, "good" looks is very different in opera compared to what Vogue thinks, and there are lots to be achieved through great and appealing acting. None of the top opera stars are Vogue-pretty in a picture, but many are mesmerising to look at when in motion. Also, importantly, looks are, to a certain degree, subjective.
> 
> I'd rather watch a DVD of Fleming, Netrebko or Dame Kiri in her pomp, than Sutherland, even though Sutherland is the superior singer. I might be a philistine, but opera is about seeing as well as hearing. To me, at least.


Barbara Hannigan is Vogue beautiful, and she can sing Lulu en pointe. In her underwear.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Barbara Hannigan is Vogue beautiful, and she can sing Lulu en pointe. In her underwear.


And she sings and conducts Ligeti at the same time - a phenom


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Of course it is. I've seen enough Gildas badly in need of intense Nutrisystem to make the supposed appearance of a young, desirable girl quite absurd.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

dgee said:


> And she sings and conducts Ligeti at the same time - a phenom


My opera heroine:clap:.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

dgee said:


> And she sings and conducts Ligeti at the same time - a phenom


Land o' Goshen! The things some people will do for applause...!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Land o' Goshen! The things some people will do for applause...!


It is cute. And I do like it-- in a campy-sort-of-way.

But a little fruitcake goes a long way-- no matter how hard it was to make.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Its just as important for the guys to look plausible in their role as the ladies. It does wind me up when the role of romantic lead is occupied by a pug ugly and overweight tenor! No names, no pack drill. I mean jeez... if they cant turn their head without turning their body dont cast them. 

I dont mind the age thing, as has been mentioned here, there are no 15 year old dramatic soprano's. Just as long as a little common sense is used.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Badinerie said:


> Its just as important for the guys to look plausible in their role as the ladies. It does wind me up when the role of romantic lead is occupied by a pug ugly and overweight tenor! No names, no pack drill. I mean jeez... if they cant turn their head without turning their body dont cast them.
> 
> I dont mind the age thing, as has been mentioned here, there are no 15 year old dramatic soprano's. Just as long as a little common sense is used.


I really like seeing everyone empowered to be the best that _they_ can be.

People being participants and not just spectators.

I love seeing people enjoying themselves in mind, body, and style.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

katdad said:


> 1- In the superb new Met "Las Vegas" Rigoletto, Diana Damrau sings Gilda. And her voice was superb! But she's in her 40s and looks it, and I found it a bit difficult to disconnect that in my mind and see her as the 16-18 year old Gilda.


Diana Damrau is one of the few female opera singers that I can admit to like because of her singing but I don´t think she looks old.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Diana Damrau is one of the few female opera singers that I can admit to like because of her singing but I don´t think she looks old.


I can second that comment about Damrau.

Opera, more than Broadway shows, is about suspension of disbelief.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> I can second that comment about Damrau.
> 
> Opera, more than Broadway shows, is about suspension of disbelief.


Still it is nice to have singers that don´t require that much suspension of disbelief. For example Gildas that looks like they are far from retirement age.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

My friend Ben and stepdad Powell and I were discussing this issue during breakfast and coffee... who are the most attractive sopranos in today's world?

I voted for Garanca of course .


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> My friend Ben and stepdad Powell and I were discussing this issue during breakfast and coffee... who are the most attractive sopranos in today's world?
> 
> I voted for Garanca of course .


But she is a mezzo-soprano.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Sloe said:


> But she is a mezzo-soprano.


Sorry I need to clarify more... we were including both sopranos and mezzo-sopranos .


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> Sorry I need to clarify more... we were including both sopranos and mezzo-sopranos .


I see.
She is a very beautiful woman anyway.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Must say I found the appearance of Jan Botha at the Met Mastersingers somewhat distracting. he is enormous (but not so big as Heppner) and one really has to suspend your disbelief to imagine him as the dashing young knight.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I don't know how many Gildas I've seen where I had to control myself from laughing.

Yet for Mimí, the singers are usually pretty and in shape.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Badinerie said:


> Its just as important for the guys to look plausible in their role as the ladies. It does wind me up when the role of romantic lead is occupied by a pug ugly and overweight tenor! No names, no pack drill. I mean jeez... if they cant turn their head without turning their body dont cast them.


Ugliness and being overweight are two totally different things. You cannot help your bone structure, but you can lose weight.



Badinerie said:


> I dont mind the age thing, as has been mentioned here, there are no 15 year old dramatic soprano's. Just as long as a little common sense is used.


I don't mind how old the female singer is as long as she can sing and act the role.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sospiro said:


> I don't mind how old the female singer is as long as she can sing and act the role.


frankly though, especially on DVD this presents problems as you see a 'young' girl played by a singer old enough to be her parent.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Must say I found the appearance of Jan Botha at the Met Mastersingers somewhat distracting. he is enormous (but not so big as Heppner) and one really has to suspend your disbelief to imagine him as the dashing young knight.


My brother was there at the Met last Saturday. I would ask him about Botha, if he was singing that day, but there's a good chance he was off in dreamland somewhere. A waste of a center parterre box seat.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

DavidA said:


> frankly though, especially on DVD this presents problems as you see a 'young' girl played by a singer old enough to be her parent.


Maybe our different opinions are simple because of our gender? I'm not interested in women singers and as long as they can sing and act OK, I'm happy. I like Patrizia Ciofi and she sings 'young girl' roles even though she's 47 and that's fine with me.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sospiro said:


> Maybe our different opinions are simple because of our gender? I'm not interested in women singers and as long as they can sing and act OK, I'm happy. I like Patrizia Ciofi and she sings 'young girl' roles even though she's 47 and that's fine with me.


of course, it depends how old a singer looks. But if opera is a drama - visual as well as aural - then it makes nonsense to have a singer who looks to old or who is out of shape for the part.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I think there are double standards for male singers and female singers.

I recently read a review that Anna Netrebko had cracked a few notes and someone commented, looking like she does, he wouldn't care if she cracked several. A male singer wouldn't be forgiven because he was 'handsome'.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sospiro said:


> I think there are double standards for male singers and female singers.
> 
> I recently read a review that Anna Netrebko had cracked a few notes and someone commented, looking like she does, he wouldn't care if she cracked several. A male singer wouldn't be forgiven because he was 'handsome'.


i don't know. i remember my wife going 'Cor!' seeing a young Thomas Hampson


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

DavidA said:


> i don't know. i remember my wife going 'Cor!' seeing a young Thomas Hampson


I'm just the same with Simon Keenlyside but I don't equate good looks with a good voice. I adore Bryn Terfel! I'm not saying that Trebs can't sing but these days with DVD close ups, would glamorous female singers have so many male fans if they weren't blessed with other 'assets'.

Would Joan Sutherland be as successful today?


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Of course it is. I've seen enough Gildas badly in need of intense Nutrisystem to make the supposed appearance of a young, desirable girl quite absurd.


Ah the poor Gildas, everyone picks on them.
In fact Gilda need not be at all 'beautiful' - the duke is a serial womaniser so what makes her desirable is her unavailability, not her beauty.
Nor need she be all that young. In the time of the opera setting it was common for unmarried middle class children (especially females) to live with their parents until married. Plus Rigoletto was more than a tad overprotective so she could easily have been 30 or even older.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DonAlfonso said:


> Ah the poor Gildas, everyone picks on them.
> In fact *Gilda* need not be at all 'beautiful' - the duke is a serial womaniser so what makes her desirable is her unavailability, *not her beauty.*
> Nor need she be all that young. In the time of the opera setting it was common for unmarried middle class children (especially females) to live with their parents until married. Plus Rigoletto was more than a tad overprotective so she could easily have been 30 or even older.


Nice try! So the libretto is wrong when the kidnappers exclaim *"Oh quanto é bella!"* and Marullo exclaims *"Par fata od angiol"* just before they kidnap her?


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Nice try! So the libretto is wrong when the kidnappers exclaim *"Oh quanto é bella!"* and Marullo exclaims *"Par fata od angiol"* just before they kidnap her?


also "Oh, quanto è bella!" a second time but remember it is dark - lol


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

I know we're talking mostly about women being pretty or overweight but one thing I think about is how it affects men who are supposed to look 'imposing' in certain roles, there's an idea that a bass is always tall, in fact some of the deepest basses have been fairly short or average-sized. There's also the notion that bass roles require a tall or large physique, but with the exception of Fasolt and Fafner, there's no need for that. Hagen is half dwarf, the Grand Inquisitor is 90 years old.....they're intimidating because they have powerful personalities beyond the scope of ordinary mortals. Most bass roles are old men, why do you need a huge strapping guy?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

sospiro said:


> I think there are double standards for male singers and female singers.
> 
> I recently read a review that Anna Netrebko had cracked a few notes and someone commented, looking like she does, he wouldn't care if she cracked several. A male singer wouldn't be forgiven because he was 'handsome'.


I honestly think my eyes affect my ears.
The female singers I like to listen to are in most cases the ones I find pretty. Then I wonder I think Anna Netrebko is pretty but I don´t like to listen to her that much. Does that mean she is not so good as a singer?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DonAlfonso said:


> also "Oh, quanto è bella!" a second time but remember it is dark - lol


Yes, it is dark, but one would think the Duke would have had his people busily seeking out the best looking babes in the kingdom and Gilda got placed on the list, and not because she needed to join Eaters Anonymous! :lol:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Sloe said:


> I honestly think my eyes affect my ears. The female singers I like to listen to are in most cases the ones I find pretty.


I admire your honesty and I think this is true for many men but I can't blame you because it's just down to basic instinct.



Sloe said:


> Then I wonder I think Anna Netrebko is pretty but I don´t like to listen to her that much. Does that mean she is not so good as a singer?


Perhaps a combination of both? You think she's pretty but not drop dead gorgeous and maybe you think that her voice isn't quite as good as people say it is?


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Yes, it is dark, but one would think the Duke would have had his people busily seeking out the best looking babes in the kingdom and Gilda got placed on the list, and not because she needed to join Eaters Anonymous! :lol:


Well of course Gilda wasn't on the list (if the list exists) as the Duke wasn't aware of the abduction and the primary motivation for the courtiers was revenge on Rigoletto - not 'shopping' for the duke.

As for Oh quanto è bella! etc you could fix that problem by having the courtiers sing the lines ironically indicating she's not all that lovely. After all they think she's the deformed Rigoletto's mistress so the expectations can't be too high. Might have trouble selling this idea to the soprano engaged to sing the role however - "we're doing it this way because we think you're ugly".

Seriously I believe Verdi intended Gilda to be both young and attractive but the voice is the most important thing so long as she doesn't look old enough to be Rigoletto's mother.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DonAlfonso said:


> Seriously I believe Verdi intended Gilda to be both young and attractive but the voice is the most important thing so long as she doesn't look old enough to be Rigoletto's mother.


of course you have just admitted by that you don't see opera as drama. On CD I couldn't care about how he / she looks. But in the theatre looks are important. Why did Karajan replace Pavarotti with Domingo for his film of Butterfly when he'd already made the recording with Pav? Looks obviously!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> of course you have just admitted by that you don't see opera as drama. On CD I couldn't care about how he / she looks. But in the theatre looks are important. Why did Karajan replace Pavarotti with Domingo for his film of Butterfly when he'd already made the recording with Pav? Looks obviously!


Exactly. Imagine what a novice, brought up on glamorous Hollywood movies would think, experiencing Rigoletto "live" for the first time with a 260 lb. Gilda.
"Never again!", the most likely reaction.


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

DavidA said:


> of course you have just admitted by that you don't see opera as drama. On CD I couldn't care about how he / she looks. But in the theatre looks are important. Why did Karajan replace Pavarotti with Domingo for his film of Butterfly when he'd already made the recording with Pav? Looks obviously!


On the contrary I do see opera as drama. I like live opera best and attend as much as I can find and afford. Video of live performances is next. Film not so much - I'm so often disappointed. Opera on CD I hardly categorise as 'opera' at all - more like 'vocal music' - although I do listen to a lot of it.
I didn't mean to imply that it's only the voice that's important but, as in theater, looks matter less than ability (acting, singing etc)


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Why did Karajan replace Pavarotti with Domingo for his film of Butterfly when he'd already made the recording with Pav? Looks obviously!


If it's just looks he would have replaced him with Brad Pitt.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

DonAlfonso said:


> If it's just looks he would have replaced him with Brad Pitt.


I don´t think a 12 year old Pinkerton would have been believable.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

I always prefer at least a few operas to be sung by real fit people, not too old or too fat...The first would be Traviata, but also Rossina form Il barbiere , Mimi, Madam Butterfly...
For example, though I love Diana Damrau, I think she was in a bad shape (physical) and was not good in singing Violetta.
The same goes for Anna when she put on too much weight...good for Muppets show (it's a joke, I loved the Muppets), but not in Don Pasquale. At least I also have problem with her singing even when she looked nice. Violetta was not good for her or any coloratura opera.
This a weird for me, Traviata, though the singing is good:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

DonAlfonso said:


> If it's just looks he would have replaced him with Brad Pitt.


If we read the libretto looking for clues that Gilda must be beautiful, we must do the same for the Duke. (Brad Pitt looks like a monkey though; may I cast my vote for Jon Hamm or maybe Jake Gyllenhaal?) Maddalena is immediately struck by the Duke's gorgeousness, though she coquettishly plays hard to get- I suppose it's possible that his chat up lines might just be really good, but I doubt it- 'Bella figlia dell'amore...'-please! Here are some of Maddalena's remarks about the duke, addressed to her brother: 'Povero giovin, grazioso tanto!' 'E amabile invero cotal giovinotto!' 'Peccato! È pur bello!' And, best of all: 'Somiglia un Apollo quel giovine'. I wonder whether the 'Apollo' line has caused frequent hilarity in the theatre, as there have been few if any great tenors who look like Greek gods. Tenors tend to be small stocky men, built for function rather than form- Silenus, not Apollo. Show me a handsome six footer and I'll usually show you a pushed up baritone, or at the very least somebody who was not cast for his vocal attributes. Perhaps, since Apollo was the god of music and singing, an appropriately godlike voice can convey handsomeness in a way that makes Maddalena's lines appropriate:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I believe it was reported that Jessye Norman was asked if she ever considered playing Violetta. She replied: "Who could ever imagine me dying of consumption!"


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