# Muhammad Ali RIP



## Templeton (Dec 20, 2014)

The great boxer passed away overnight, after a lengthy fight with Parkinson's Disease. Whether one followed boxing or not, he was an iconic figure, whose influence went far beyond the boxing world.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10985926


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

The last of the greats. The man who floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee. It was sad to see his condition in the 2012 London Olympics. A sad ending for a man who in his prime was known for his mobility. In Finland we call him the greatest and the most beautiful(it loses a bit in the translation from "suurin ja kaunein").


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

A great man, both in and out of the ring, for both his athletic achievements and his courageous engagement during a time of crisis. I honor him always.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Such a great champion...

I remember when I was just a little boy, waking up in the middle of the night (in Spain) to watch together with my father his first fight with Joe Frazier, back in 1971. He lost that fight, an incredible one with two great fighters confronting each other, but eventually he was able to reconquer the world title, that was taken from him for political reasons, not on a boxing ring.

Sit tibi terra levis.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

"My conscience won't let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me ******, they never lynched me, they didn't put no dogs on me, they didn't rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father... Shoot them for what? How do I got to go shoot them, poor little black people, little babies, children, and women? How can I shoot them poor people? Just take me to jail."

Muhammad Ali, 1967.

That, my friends, is a conscientious objection.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

He wasn't always that nice as I saw on television


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## Templeton (Dec 20, 2014)

Pugg said:


> He wasn't always that nice as I saw on television


No, he wasn't, you're right but then nobody is perfect. Mandela, Churchill, Martin Luther King and many others had many deep flaws to their characters but remain iconic figures for many. If they were perfect, then there would be little to identify with. Apparently, Ali wasn't a great husband or father, for at least some of the time, and I thought that his behaviour towards another great boxer, Joe Frazier, was often dreadful. However, another former foe, George Foreman, has spoken rather movingly of him, as a great friend and man.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/36451103

And, as Ukko noted above, his influence stretched far beyond the boxing world, into areas that have had a lasting impact. It is difficult to overstate the impact of his statement regarding the Vietnam War, at the time.

Best to celebrate the good, although I am not advocating that one ignores the bad. I take your point, however.

Regards,

Templeton


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Immense respect for his talent of course and the clever way with which he could both charm and amuse but when I was a kid I was more a Joe Frazier fan, not least because of the way that Ali perpetually disrespected him which seemed unworthy and unnecessary - calling Smokin' Joe an 'Uncle Tom' was a particularly nasty insult, especially when Joe bore no significant ill-will towards Ali and had actively supported Ali during the latter's banishment from boxing. I gather they did make peace of some sorts eventually after both had retired but what should simply have been an intense sporting rivalry based on mutual respect was blown up into a rather unsavoury one-sided slanging match which was nearly all down to Ali's ego and his need to manipulate the media. 

From what I've read Joe Frazier was a decent man - and he deserved better than the crap which Ali flung at him.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Templeton said:


> No, he wasn't, you're right but then nobody is perfect. Mandela, Churchill, Martin Luther King and many others had many deep flaws to their characters but remain iconic figures for many. If they were perfect, then there would be little to identify with. Apparently, Ali wasn't a great husband or father, for at least some of the time, and I thought that his behaviour towards another great boxer, Joe Frazier, was often dreadful. However, another former foe, George Foreman, has spoken rather movingly of him, as a great friend and man.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/36451103
> 
> ...


I see what you mean , but as this was about Mr. Ali I kept my opinion to what I saw on telly last night.
The "I am the greatest " doesn't work for me, sorry.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2016)

I can scarcely imagine a dumber sport than boxing (or any form of fighting), but he was very good at it, and I'm sorry he died.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

Templeton said:


> No, he wasn't, you're right but then nobody is perfect. Mandela, Churchill, Martin Luther King and many others had many deep flaws to their characters but remain iconic figures for many. If they were perfect, then there would be little to identify with. Apparently, Ali wasn't a great husband or father, for at least some of the time, and I thought that his behaviour towards another great boxer, Joe Frazier, was often dreadful. However, another former foe, George Foreman, has spoken rather movingly of him, as a great friend and man.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/36451103
> 
> ...


As a "journalist," I had two occasions during the 1960s to get up close to Ali. The first was in 1964 at the Nation of Islam temple in Los Angeles shortly after Malcolm X quit the organization. There he appeared along with Elijah Mohammed to denounce the apostate. It was a small room, crowded by members of the media who were restricted to voice recordings but no photos permitted. I was seated on the floor directly in front of the dias at which various NOI speakers, including Ali, rose up to vilify Malcolm. Ali was seated directly in front of me, sort of wooden-faced until his turn came. He then stood up, said his piece, an animated rant, then sat down again. To me, he looked uncomfortable in the role of celebrity Malcolm-basher, but there it was. No charisma discerned. I have a souvenir of the event in the form of a photograph published in the newspaper, "Muhammed Speaks," in which I am being frisked by a Fruit of Islam (security detail) man, and identified as "a white reporter." It is somewhere in my disorganized heaps, where I hope it turns up sometime before I die.

The next occasion was in 1967, when he appeared at a large peace demonstration outside the Century Plaza Hotel, where President Johnson was making an appearance. As the crowd was gathering, I spotted him in the middle of a group of admirers, smiling and shaking hands. He radiated charisma this time, charmed everybody around him, including me. We shook hands, but there was nothing personal in it. Later, when the event turned violent, he had long since left the scene.

I care little about Ali's personal life, somewhat more about his boxing career, but most of all about his integrity and humanity during the most urgent crises of our time, war and racism. That is why I admire him.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Pugg said:


> I see what you mean , but as this was about Mr. Ali I kept my opinion to what I saw on telly last night.
> The "I am the greatest " doesn't work for me, sorry.


Oh, he was 'arguably' the greatest boxer of his time. He believed he had to maintain that understanding, not only for the paydays, but because that stature was his stump.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

I think I will step out of the "politically correct" box here, and just say that a "sport" where the sole aim is knock the living **** out of another human being for the amusement of the masses, and for exorbitant amounts of money, just seem retarded. And I mean this in the nicest possible way. I have the same problem with other sports, such as NASCAR (or TOCA, to be fair), Professional wrestling, and Monster Truck races. I have heard that Boxing is a fine art, where position, defence, pacing, and strategy are important factors for success, but I just don't like it. One must wonder if all that head trauma suffered by Ali somehow contributed to his Parkinson's. But I am saddened by his passing, his last 30 years were not the easiest. End of Rant.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Antiquarian said:


> I think I will step out of the "politically correct" box here, and just say that a "sport" where the sole aim is knock the living **** out of another human being for the amusement of the masses, and for exorbitant amounts of money, just seem retarded. And I mean this in the nicest possible way. I have the same problem with other sports, such as NASCAR (or TOCA, to be fair), Professional wrestling, and Monster Truck races. I have heard that Boxing is a fine art, where position, defence, pacing, and strategy are important factors for success, but I just don't like it. One must wonder if all that head trauma suffered by Ali somehow contributed to his Parkinson's. But I am saddened by his passing, his last 30 years were not the easiest. End of Rant.


Hallelujah to this :tiphat:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Antiquarian said:


> I think I will step out of the "politically correct" box here, and just say that a "sport" where the sole aim is knock the living **** out of another human being for the amusement of the masses, and for exorbitant amounts of money, just seem retarded.


"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." -- Jack Handey


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

KenOC said:


> "To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." -- Jack Handey


Makes one think what Mikhail Baryshnikov could have achieved had he only applied himself to the ballet with no music, no choreography and where the dancers hit each other... The image in my mind of him and Ali duking it out just makes my head explode...:lol:


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

KenOC said:


> "To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." -- Jack Handey


This leaves us waiting for the combined version ...


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

_Antiquarian_: "I think I will step out of the "politically correct" box here, and just say that a 'sport'..."

There's your problem; It ain't a sport. It's fighting, with formal rules.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Ukko said:


> _Antiquarian_: "I think I will step out of the "politically correct" box here, and just say that a 'sport'..."
> 
> There's your problem; It ain't a sport. It's fighting, with formal rules.


And those formal rules make it a sport.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

GreenMamba said:


> And those formal rules make it a sport.


Nah. Folks 'go to the fights'. They 'watch the fights'. TV used to show 'the Wednesday Night Fights'. Professional boxing ain't a sport. You might ask the participants, and/or others in the business.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Ukko said:


> Nah. Folks 'go to the fights'. They 'watch the fights'. TV used to show 'the Wednesday Night Fights'. Professional boxing ain't a sport. You might ask the participants, and/or others in the business.


I'm not a boxing fan, but I'm certain all participants consider boxing to be a sport.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

GreenMamba said:


> I'm not a boxing fan, but I'm certain all participants consider boxing to be a sport.


This is correct. I'm not a boxing fan, either, but I've known boxers, and all of them, plus their infrastructure personnel, consider it a sport. Their attitudes vary, but exhibit varying mixes of; a way out of poverty, to legally release aggressive impulses, the satisfaction of learning and perfecting athletic skills. All were nice guys, including the one mob enforcer. Personally, I think the sport should be outlawed, but other opinions prevail.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

znapschatz said:


> This is correct. I'm not a boxing fan, either, but I've known boxers, and all of them, plus their infrastructure personnel, consider it a sport. Their attitudes vary, but exhibit varying mixes of; a way out of poverty, to legally release aggressive impulses, the satisfaction of learning and perfecting athletic skills. All were nice guys, including the one mob enforcer. Personally, I think the sport should be outlawed, but other opinions prevail.


Amen to this :tiphat:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

znapschatz said:


> Personally, I think the sport should be outlawed, but other opinions prevail.


Outlawed by whom?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Nothing prevents the authorities of a country to ban boxing due to health implications, like it is already the case with professional boxing in Iceland, North Korea and Iran, plus formerly Sweden and Norway.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

And nothing prevents the authorities from keeping their hands off the sports industry.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> Outlawed by whom?


Whatever governmental bodies that do legislation. I'm not objecting to amateur or recreational boxing, although I think that unwise, as well. But professional boxing has been long known (centuries!) to leave brain damaged practitioners in its wake. It's wrong to expose people and their communities to that. Already, and for years, agencies responsible for issues of public health have determined there is a demonstrated clear cause of widespread traumatic brain injury from boxing and have been recommending it should not be allowed as a matter of safety. There is such a thing as the public interest. Posted speed limits on highways must be observed in those interests. You don't have the freedom to harm yourself or others. People whose brains are pounded into jelly most often wind up as wards of the state.

But I am not an activist on the issue. Perhaps I am also something of a hypocrite. The same brain trauma issues in sports has been a hot topic with regard to football, as well. Yet, I remain a huge Buckeye fan. We are all creatures of our environment, in the end, and bundles of contradictions. 
Well, I am, anyway.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

There is a dichotomy (maybe a trichotomy, if you include team ownership) in thought and deed attached to all professional 'sports'. Making a living, performing acts according to 'special' rules - special in that they are even more artificial/circumscribed than 'civilized living' rules.


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