# Cesar Franck Seriously underrated.



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

This prelude in B minor is so utterly incredible. The opening melody is beyond belief, and I haven't heard something so moving since I listened to Beethoven's late quartets. And if you include Franck's Trios and Violin Sonata, and of course his symphony, he should be right up there with Brahms and Schumann.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Franck is my kindred spirit outside of Russia. His music is my soul essence.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I guess that Franck would be somewhere in my top 50 composers. I very much like his Symphony in D minor and his solo organ works. Is the man's music underrated? I'd say he's rated on target.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Franck is my kindred spirit outside of Russia. His music is my soul essence.


Franck's Symphony in D minor was one of the first classical works I ever heard-the first two movements, so dark and mysterious. Made a deep impression on me.


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

While I've never cared for the Symphony, the Violin Sonata is superb and the String Quartet _is_ seriously underrated.


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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

Actually learning the prelude right now and i have to say it is very rewarding to play!!! I do love Francks Piano Trio 1, symphony, Prelude, Fugue and Choral, Symphonic Variations and Les Djiins. But i really really love this gem:






While the slow movement is subpar the outer movements just brim with joy, fun and clarity. It is certainly impressive for such a young composer.


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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

Also this:


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

The Piano Quintet is a seriously impressive piece of work. Need to explore him way more, but what I've heard so far is great.


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## Quartetfore (May 19, 2010)

Tallisman said:


> The Piano Quintet is a seriously impressive piece of work. Need to explore him way more, but what I've heard so far is great.


I think that the work is right up there with the Brahms, Schumann and the second Quintet of Dvorak as the greatest of the 19 century Piano Quintets.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

He truly is a special composer, and while I have listened to his symphony for years I have only just discovered his chamber music and his piano trios are not of this world. Full of all emotions and at times utterly furious before calming down to a subtle passage with a weeping, but joyful melody. 

Although what is Franck's real nationality? Would it be Dutch because Liege was part of the Netherlands when he was born there? Just curious.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

It's a nice piece, I enjoyed listening to it. That's an example of a very communicating piece of good music.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2017)

I listened to the Prelude in B minor and Piano Concerto No. 2 and enjoyed them both very much. Thanks for the recommendations!


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Well, it's probably going to take a few listens to be convincing. That B minor prelude is a fairly trite, repetitive motive over a descending bass and sounds like hundreds of pieces of piano music and the sort of things in melodramatic films. "Utterly incredible" is not my first thought.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I am always wondering, underrated by whom?


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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

beetzart said:


> He truly is a special composer, and while I have listened to his symphony for years I have only just discovered his chamber music and his piano trios are not of this world. Full of all emotions and at times utterly furious before calming down to a subtle passage with a weeping, but joyful melody.
> 
> Although what is Franck's real nationality? Would it be Dutch because Liege was part of the Netherlands when he was born there? Just curious.


Well bis mother was German and after ius sanguinis which is practiced in German he would be German. His father was Belgian and he was born there which would mean he was Belgian. But he decided to settle in France and also became a naturalized French citizen. Also his whole education took place in France so i would say he would have described himself as French.

Let us just say he was a wonderful product of the European culture.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I have to recommend his oratorio _Les Beatitudes_. It may not function as well as an oratorio as some other famous pieces, since it doesn't really tell a story, and there isn't a feeling of drama, so it's rather more like a meditation on religious subjects... but it includes some truly wonderful music.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

I''ve just been listening more and more to this guy, exploring his catalogue... He's seriously good. The symphonic variations, the violin sonata... This string quartet 1st movement is stunningly brilliant:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Yes, he is good, but not in the Brahms league at all for me. An interesting composer, both for his music, and for his nationalities (one can claim him to be Dutch, Belgian or French).


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> Well, it's probably going to take a few listens to be convincing. That B minor prelude is a fairly trite, repetitive motive over a descending bass and sounds like hundreds of pieces of piano music and the sort of things in melodramatic films. "Utterly incredible" is not my first thought.


To be fair, it was meant to be played on the organ and faster, where it sounds properly dramatic and not as weepy as on the piano.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

eugeneonagain said:


> Well, it's probably going to take a few listens to be convincing. That B minor prelude is a fairly trite, repetitive motive over a descending bass and sounds like hundreds of pieces of piano music and the sort of things in melodramatic films. "Utterly incredible" is not my first thought.


But he wasn't writing it for melodramatic films so that argument is moot. He wrote is because the idea probably just came to him by chance and for melodies written at a similar time it does sound very original. Although it could sound like something written in the 20th century Franck's prelude came first (1862) so can only influence later composers.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

I sometimes consider Franck underrated. His music has generously been recorded, though. As many of you have said, I strongly recommend the chamber music, especially the piano trios, piano quintet, string quartet and the lovely violin sonata, which is an authentic gem. Obviously, the Symphony, the _Variations symphoniques_, _Les Djinns_ and my favorite tone poem by him: the fierous _Le Chasseur Maudit_.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I am ashamed to say I have never listened to Franck's Piano Quintet, despite the fact that I adore chamber music.

How does it stack up against the Brahms Piano Quintet?

I really need to make some time for it.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

hpowders said:


> I am ashamed to say I have never listened to Franck's Piano Quintet, despite the fact that I adore chamber music.
> 
> How does it stack up against the Brahms Piano Quintet?
> 
> I really need to make some time for it.


I am going to stick my neck on the block here and say that I think Franck's chamber music is better then Brahms. It sounds so much more personal to me as if Franck puts his entire soul into each piece and you can feel him reaching out to the listener. All four of his piano trios are masterpieces for want of a better word.


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

Franck's chamber music contribution is definitely heavyweight. The thematic transformations are the most remarkable aspect. I know Liszt is said to have admired this, and has similar cyclical transformation technique employed in his B minor sonata. A great musical effect in these cases, summoning ever intensifying variations from realms unknown


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

beetzart said:


> I am going to stick my neck on the block here and say that I think Franck's chamber music is better then Brahms. It sounds so much more personal to me as if Franck puts his entire soul into each piece and you can feel him reaching out to the listener. All four of his piano trios are masterpieces for want of a better word.


Okay. I will be listening to the Franck Piano Quintet. You've convinced me!

Thank you, beetzart!


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Franck's Symphony in D minor was one of the first classical works I ever heard-the first two movements, so dark and mysterious. Made a deep impression on me.


A strange choice of cover art - Like Hercules Poirot, Franck was actually Belgian!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

manyene said:


> A strange choice of cover art - Like Hercules Poirot, Franck was actually Belgian!


Yes, he was. When I was 6 years old, my father had a performance of the Franck D minor Symphony, with the San Francisco Symphony conducted by Pierre Monteux. On the cover was a vast dark sea with a giant hand sticking up from it. I was mesmerized by the music.
Now in retrospect, I can appreciate that Monteux's performance was one of the greatest ever.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

For all of us folks who are of a certain age, Franck may be the greatest late bloomer in all of musical history. Most of his really good stuff was written after he turned 60. If Franck would have died at Beethoven's age, nobody would remember him today.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

waldvogel said:


> For all of us folks who are of a certain age, Franck may be the greatest late bloomer in all of musical history. Most of his really good stuff was written after he turned 60. If Franck would have died at Beethoven's age, nobody would remember him today.


Challenged by Janacek, maybe?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

beetzart said:


> This prelude in B minor is so utterly incredible. The opening melody is beyond belief, and I haven't heard something so moving since I listened to Beethoven's late quartets. And if you include Franck's Trios and Violin Sonata, and of course his symphony, he should be right up there with Brahms and Schumann.


The opening sounds quite contemporary. Very sentimental (way too much for me :lol


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Challenged by Janacek, maybe?


and Reinecke, too.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

I'm a big fan of Franck, I love how chromatic his musical language is.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

waldvogel said:


> For all of us folks who are of a certain age, Franck may be the greatest late bloomer in all of musical history. Most of his really good stuff was written after he turned 60. If Franck would have died at Beethoven's age, nobody would remember him today.


Yep, but I have to flag something up. All his piano trios were published on or before he was 20 according to IMSLP. He was quite ahead of his time and to compose them when he was a teenager to such a high quality is quite amazing. They are not simply study works but masterpieces in their own right. They are full of inventiveness, humour, darkness, discord, cyclic themes, powerful simple motifs (especially trio no.1 1st mov), and a touch of genius. Oh and the beautiful melodies, which is why I think his trios are arguably the greatest set of trios ever written. Before dismissing me, Amazon sell an MP3 album of all of his chamber music by various artists. I gave them a few listens and they just grew on me. I wish I could pinpoint accurately what he does with his trios but they just seem so perfect, to me anyway.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

waldvogel said:


> For all of us folks who are of a certain age, Franck may be the greatest late bloomer in all of musical history. Most of his really good stuff was written after he turned 60. If Franck would have died at Beethoven's age, nobody would remember him today.


Richard Strauss, no?


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Cesar Franck also wrote many outstanding works for the organ. 

The Three Chorales (the 2nd in A minor is a favorite) , Prelude Fuge et Variation to name a couple.

Kh


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

Tallisman said:


> Richard Strauss, no?


He wrote terrific stuff throughout his entire life. Don Juan when he was 24, Der Rosenkavalier when he was 47, and Four Last Songs when he was 84.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I have multiple recordings of the Symphony In D and a few random recordings of other pieces but I've never listened to his chamber music. Seems I've been missing out as the pieces I've just checked out on youtube are lovely. I need to explore more. Thanks for the heads-up!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

FWV 61: Panis Angelicus


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I think he's rated about right. Better chamber music than Brahms?  There are a couple of good ones to be sure but please be serious. And while we're on Brahms, have you noticed that the mysterious echoes of the D minor symphony's opening theme in the finale imitate the same effect in Brahms's Third?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I have never heard any of his vocal music and only superficial acquaintance with an organ piece or two and that piano piece that used to be far more popular in the mid-20th century (prelude, choral, fugue) as well as that concertante piece with piano&orchestra. I love the violin sonata and the piano quintet, the symphony only slightly less but I couldn't really warm to the string quartet, even with repeated and extended listening (including comparing and discussing the work in our "weekly string quartet"). The trios are interesting, and amazing for a ~20 year old but they are absurdly piano-centered (like Alkan or Liszt). The first one would deserve more recognition (Richter played it with Kagan and Gutman, I think) but of the pieces I know well only the violin sonata and the quintet come close to Brahms. 
(Some may differ on the string quartet, fair enough. It's certainly an interesting piece but I think it has even more than e.g. the Grieg quartet and the Bruckner quintet the problem that the composer apparently would love to have at least an octet or better an orchestra whereas not only Haydn/Mozart/Beethoven but also Brahms, Bartok or Shostakovich and many others knew that this was not the right way to write quartets.)

Franck (and a few other late 19th century French composers) seem to anticipate the practice to write only one (fully mature) piece per genre...


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Cesar Franck, and in particular his Symphony in D, have been subject of many stories in CM media past couple years re wither Franck. It didn't used to be this way. Writing in 1968 Herbert Russcol said, "This is an extremely popular symphony; indeed it is a stape of the concert repertoire." Yet it fell out of fashion in the 1970s and, even though a few new recordings in recent years sparked renewed interest, never came back to the concert hall. Why? Russcol said Franck was more German than French "without a shred of the sensusousness" of French music. Yet he doesn't stack up well against Germans of the period including Brahms who is far more popular. The religious element of his music is reminiscent of both Liszt and Bruckner; they have both better outlasted him both in concert and recordings. His great Symphony, written around 1888, put him in competition with some of the greatest symphonists in history -- Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak and Mahler. He doesn't stack up well against any of them either. Cesar Franck is a composer who, in a different time, may have been more greatly considered. He was once renowned for his use of cyclical motifs and devices; no longer. He has fallen more greatly than just about any other big name late Romantic composer.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think the Franck symphony was simply a bit "crowded out". Since the 1960s we saw the "renaissance" of Mahler, Bruckner spreading from local hero through the whole world, similarly Sibelius, Nielsen. Shostakovich followed in the 1980s (before he was "Soviet" for the conservatives and not modern enough for the modernists). So there were at least around a dozen (not all symphonies of the composers mentioned have become very popular and some few were rather popular already 1960) large scale late romantic or modern symphonies that compete with Franck for the attention.

Franck still does fairly well, I think the violin sonata and the quintet are still staples. 
The other French/Swiss/Belgians like Chausson, Magnard, Roussel, Honegger etc. do much worse. It's really strange how little the French (and Italians) promote their somewhat less known composers, compared to the Brits, Scandinavians and maybe also Russians.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

His Le Chausseur Maudit (Accursed Huntsman) has long been an all time favorite of mine.


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