# Volume



## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

This is an extension of another thread about orchestral musicians hearing loss -- and a genuine question. I post it here rather than on the pop forum because many here have more Catholic tastes than me, and can probably understand both sides of the situation.

I came to classical music relatively early in life, and though I listened to an average amount of pop music in my youth, my taste was weird and differed markedly from that of my age cohort. I never really liked rock and roll, and much rock music left me cold. But there were songs I'd hear on the radio that were musically interesting that I liked. Then I'd go to a concert and find the songs I'd thought I'd liked were unrecognizable because they were being played so loudly you couldn't even hear them. In an early job, I'd have to attend occasional pop concerts to attend to the media, and found this was a universal experience.

And I frankly don't get it. I value my hearing (which age is now diminishing), and I've never understood why a pop concert has to be deafening to be considered any good. What am I missing?

cheers --


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I avoid all rock concerts due to the volume. I've gone home from them with ringing in my ears. Thankfully my hearing is really very good. I've never had this problem at classical concerts.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

GGluek said:


> . . . And I frankly don't get it. I value my hearing (which age is now diminishing), and I've never understood why a pop concert has to be deafening to be considered any good. What am I missing?


We are volunteer ushers at several theatrical venues locally - all of the "pop concerts" are at volumes so loud that they can be heard a mile away, yet when a classical artist is featured, say Itzhak Perlman for instance, his performance and commentaries to the audience are barely audible.

Maybe this is artist preference? But, like you, I fail to understand why at rock/pop concerts the must be so loud, when at half the volume it might be a bit more enjoyable (?).


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## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

"why a pop concert has to be deafening to be considered any good"

My guess:
1) Because a loud volume gives a stronger sense of presence (same thing in cinemas)
2) Because drunk people are load, screaming and almost deaf
3) Because loud music is a axiom in the music industry, everybody expects loud volume
4) ...hm, I dont remember this one
5) Because loud music is striking and conspicuous


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

Bread and circuses. Pretty sure they were loud at the Coliseum when the lions and gladiators were going at it.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

^^I think that You're quite on the spot there CW!

Myself, I don't go near a concert venue of any sort with out my custom fitted linear ear plugs! (I don't even drive without them)

/ptr


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

It could be because the musical formula is pretty simple, so they have to physically bowl you over  There is actually a scientific basis to that. Loud music makes the heart beat faster and rapid heartbeat is a symptom of physical excitement and heightened alertness.

I like rock music (from time to time) and I enjoy turning it up for this effect: I find that it really does give me a brief kick. However, the earsplitting volumes at concerts are harmful to hearing and perhaps even to your entire organism, due to the induced sustained stress response. I know exactly what you mean about the songs being unrecognizable, due to distortion and overload. I don't enjoy that _at all!_

I always wear earplugs and when I have forgotten them, I have found that a sheet of toilet paper, wadded into a cylinder, works adequately enough to reduce the pain.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

Loud music at non-classical concerts are part of the 'scene'. It's part of the world culture that promotes the value of excess, in this case excess in volume, and excess of spectacle in place of refinement.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2014)

For me, loud music puts me 'inside' it. If the bass is good enough, the physical vibration can be exhilarating. It probably has the effect of raising heartbeat and adrenalin and levels of dopamine, contributing to excitement and feel-good.

Yes, I have been to one concert (about 35 years ago) where I was too close to the speakers and still had ringing ears for days afterwards - but the band was great! I'm not endorsing excess volume, but it seems those sceptical of any value in volume need to hear the truth!


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## satoru (May 29, 2014)

Of course, hearing loss in professional musicians is a serious problem. There is a report that those musicians hide the fact based on fear of losing their job. I think there is a need for more research and way for prevention.

Loud sound has certain effect outside of ones by music, like drinking or mental arousal. Some examples can be found here:
Music increases alcohol consumption rate in young females
Triggers of mania and depression in young adults with bipolar disorder
Like any psychological stimulus, one can get used to the imput and seek for higher level. Probably, that's happening in concert scenes, where the sound level is creeping up higher every decade.

I use canal phones, deeply inserted into my ears. I limit the volume to barely audible level at first. After few minutes of listening, the ears adjust to the level and I can hear more details after the adaptation. When I take off the earphones, the ambient noise level sounds higher than usual, but ears quickly adjust again.

If you set the initial volume high, your ears will adjust to it, too. If you repeatedly adjust the volume to higher level after ear's adaptation, you may cross the threshold of sound level that can cause physical damage to hearing.

By the way, each of our auditory cortex neurons are tuned to a frequency range less than a 1/4 tone, so losing them most likely will impair hearing at those frequencies (Ultra-fine frequency tuning revealed in single neurons of human auditory cortex). I know a person who lost hearing for one frequency only, and it can be explained by this finding.

Wish a happy listening to music at safe sound level for everybody!


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

When listening with headphones (which is what I primarily do), I actually prefer a louder volume, not ear-splitting loud but definitely not "normal". I agree with MacLeod, it puts me inside of the music, I feel more connected to it and I'm just able to enjoy it more. The movie theaters are loud because it offers more of an immersive experience. That's how I see it, at least.


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## Tortue Supris (Aug 31, 2014)

I think there is some agreement that the volume of the music is more for the atmosphere and cultural element to the music - the definition of a concert between different musical styles must vary a great deal, they each imply very different environments that appeal to different tastes. 

In some instances I presume this environment and feeling of euthoria eclipses the obvious damage it does to the hearing.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Any rock concert I go to now, or have gone to in the past 10 years, I go with ear plugs. I can still hear the music fine. I am also a carpenter/custom woodworker so I am constantly around loud machinery and tools and I am often wearing ear plugs during work as well. I have excellent hearing and I hope to keep it that way. That being said, I too "get" the louder volume while listening to music (again, not ear-splitting or even close to a rock concert). It "brings me into" the music as well.

V


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I wasn't aware of it, but there was an outdoor Jack White concert downtown last night (and tonight, I believe, for Labour Day). I was home listening to some classical CDs. There was a lot of background rumbling and I noticed that it persisted after I turned off the music. Fireworks? No. Aircraft? No. I checked the local paper (online) and learned of the concert. I live 5 km north of the stage downtown and I could hear it inside my place over the sound of my own stereo! I can't imagine how loud that would have been down at the festival :lol: They had a 23 o'clock curfew and the noise stopped at 2303 hours.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Why are rock concerts so loud? Because they _can_ be.

I was very surprised to recently go to an Ian Anderson (formerly of Jethro Tull) concert to discover he had always hated loud music. While the volume was audible, more so than a classical concert, it was still very pleasant not to have the ears plug themselves up for protection.

Oddly enough I never found Back Sabbath very loud, but Emerson, Lake and Palmer, one of the most classically oriented bands, played not in decibels but on the Richter scale! I think it depends on where you are sitting too. I don't regret the very loud concerts I attended in my youth. Immersion in the sound was part of the experience. I hear fairly well for a 58 year old.

The rock concert experience does however make live classical concerts a bit feeble in comparison, but of course most orchestral instruments just sound wrong or too shrill when amplified.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

At least we have not quite gotten to this point yet, though I suspect it is only a question of time:

http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Disaster_Area


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Weston said:


> Why are rock concerts so loud?
> 
> I was very surprised to recently go to an Ian Anderson (formerly of Jethro Tull) concert to discover he had always hated loud music. While the volume was audible, more so than a classical concert, it was still very pleasant not to have the ears plug themselves up for protection.
> 
> Oddly enough I never found Back Sabbath very loud, but Emerson, Lake and Palmer, one of the most classically oriented bands, played not in decibels but on the Richter scale!


I favored prog rock as a teen but always wore ear plugs. The dynamic range of my then favorite band, King Crimson, went from the quietest pianissimo to deafening. But they used the whole range, often building crescendos over five minutes or more. Jethro Tull also used a wide dynamic range live but never overpowering.


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