# The beginning of my symphony (give feedback)



## lachlan1415 (Jul 30, 2018)

Hi my name's lox and I'm 15 years old. I started a symphony 2 days ago and this is the beginning of the symphony. could you guys give constructive criticism and tell me how could I improve. Do you think this has the potential to be great? Could you guys also comment on the youtube video and leave a like (or dislike if you didn't like it)

Youtube link:






thanks for your time


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I like it and wanted it to go on. So keep plugging! I do need to say that you've evidently been listening to the Eroica...


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## lachlan1415 (Jul 30, 2018)

yes lol I recycled the first part of the theme. Beethoven is my main inspiration. I love mozart though. I don't think mozart has enough emotion in his music compared to beethoven.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Fortunately you didn't follow the Serialism/Vanguardism/Atonal steps 

It sounds curious but I felt it more Mozart than Beethoven. In any case it seems promising, even more for a young of your age.


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## lachlan1415 (Jul 30, 2018)

What are the Serialism/Vanguardism/Atonal steps? could you explain.

thanks for your time


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

KenOC said:


> I do need to say that you've evidently been listening to the Eroica...


A good effort up to now. It is a bit Eroicy but if Brahms can borrow LvB then so can you.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

lachlan1415 said:


> What are the Serialism/Vanguardism/Atonal steps? could you explain.
> 
> thanks for your time


Music like this:


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## Groooooove (Jul 31, 2018)

lovely ! 

I agree the similarity to Beethoven 3 is very clear - thats only bad if you didn't intend it that way!

at mm. 23 don't forget to mark the basses Divisi if thats what you want - which I'm assuming you do 

it started getting really engaging right before it cut off! keep it up.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

You want honesty?

First, are you composing and orchestrating at the same time? People like Mozart, Mendelssohn and Korngold could do that, but most everyone else first writes a short-score, polishes up the music and only then begin the arduous task of orchestration.

How much experience do you have scoring for an orchestra? Just because you can write notes in Sibelius (or whatever this is) doesn't mean it's playable. And don't ever get fooled thinking that if it sounds good on the computer it will sound the same in real performance - not a chance. There are many mistakes in the scoring. For the Eroica tune: having it only in the upper violins is going to be really thin. There are many ways to make it more solid: add the 2nds an octave lower; add a flute to it...

You need to learn how to voice chords and it's all based on the natural harmonic overtones. Bar 37 (I think) in the strings is a good example. You have a low A in the celli, then an A an octave higher in both the violas and 2nds, then another octave the 1sts play another A and as a bonus, a C#. The spacing is all wrong for the chord to have depth and presence.

Look at bar 30: the bass voices are a muddle. Those bassoon parts will never speak and be heard. In tutti passages the masters would have the basses and celli in octaves with bassoon doubling to clean up the bass. What's the point of the 16th in the celli anyway? It's hard, won't be heard.

Ok...what instrument do you play? I bet it's not violin. Starting in bar 20: those triple stops are impossible. If you mean divisi, then it should be indicated.

Around 40 you have the oboes in unison - which is never a good idea. It will not make the sound twice as loud, but it will make intonation really challenging for all the most expert players.

And I could go on. For being 15 it's impressive, albeit derivative. Write it out as a short (piano) score. Then read through a great text on scoring, like Rimsky-Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration. Take up violin or meet up with an accomplished string player who can help explain the minefield of double and triple stops. I've written more than my share of impossible string chords over the years, and a pro can really help. At least you didn't write a harp part!

Don't give up, but you must learn the fundamental, basic, essential skills of a composer. Whatever is your instrument, it helps to take up several more, ideally one from each family. That gives you insight on how to write for instruments that no textbook could. But write that short score _first_!


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

The highest A in Oboe I and Clarinet I is next to impossible especially at your tempo. 

You need to cut out some of the timpani as it's too much pounding. It comes across as a timpani concerto. 

When two instruments on a single staff play in unison, you do not show two notes on a single stem; instead you place the term "a2" over the first note of the unison passage. 

Technique words like "pizz" or "arco" are placed above the staff, not under. 

Do not write triple and quadruple stops for orchestral strings (solo, if it's possible is OK, knowing that the notes will be arpeggiated and not at a fast tempo) If you want a three or four note violin or viola or cello chord, you indicate it with the term "div" over it.


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## lachlan1415 (Jul 30, 2018)

Hey thanks for your time in writing this humongous comment. I have had 7 months in composing but I've composed a lot in those 7 months. 

I am not very experienced in writing for orchestra. I've always wanted to write a symphony so I thought I'd give it a try. I'm not so sure about the virtuosic limits of instruments in the orchestra as I only play piano.

When I'm writing those violin chords I meant divisi. I was going to write all the divisi after I completed the movement. I'm also not so familiar with how to properly. Thanks for your advice I will use it in writing this.


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

There's a lot of musical criticism in the last two posts, which I hope will prove useful for you; but as a listener I just want to say that I really like it and I look forward to hearing more.


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## lachlan1415 (Jul 30, 2018)

This isn't even music. That was absolutely horrifying.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

lachlan1415 said:


> This isn't even music. That was absolutely horrifying.


Ouch! Harsh! He's 15, ffs. Cut him some slack!


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## lachlan1415 (Jul 30, 2018)

Merl that was me talking, (the creator of this thread and the person who composed it) I was talking about how the Schoenberg: Suite, Op.29 - Boulez. is absolutely horrifying. Not my own composition haha.

thanks for standing up for me though appreciated.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

lachlan1415 said:


> Merl that was me talking, (the creator of this thread and the person who composed it) I was talking about how the Schoenberg: Suite, Op.29 - Boulez. is absolutely horrifying. Not my own composition haha.


Hahaha. My bad. I should try reading properly.


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## lachlan1415 (Jul 30, 2018)

no problem  Is that song even music though? why would someone listen to it.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I actually like the piece.
But I like Beethoven.
I also like Schoenberg and Boulez.
I'm impressed that this sounded, to me, more like Ferdinand Ries's Ninth Symphony than Beethoven's Third. But I could be in error.
I'd like to see a wind, woodwind or string quartet from you. The four voices would be more concentrated and we may get a better grasp of your concepts of form and harmony and counterpoint and all that musical stuff.
I recall writing a symphony when I was about your age. I wish it had sounded like Ries's Ninth. Alas ...
Keep studying. And writing.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Great effort! Keep it going. MBHAUB and VASKS gave you some excellent advice to follow. Advice that if followed through properly will take time. Do not be in a rush. I especially eagree with MBHAUB's advice on learning instruments in each family. It will not only hone your orchestration, but will open the possibilities that you can't see or hear yet in your orchestration.

Don't rush, and keep on it. LVB Eroica for sure!

V


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## IpadComposer (Aug 12, 2018)

Wow, just joined. Read a few threads that almost drove me away. But this is great, honest and compassionate.... Except for lox's Schoenberg bashing ( c'mon lox, give the guy a break, he lived a hundred years ago!). When someone says, ok you want honesty, I cringe, but Mr. Mbhaub just told it like it is, orchestrally speaking. A real teacher.

As to my own opinion, I, too, just completed my first symphonic work... On an iPad! I am 70, not 15, a veteran non mainstream jazz pianist by training. I, too, quoted LudwigVan, but just four bars!(7th second movement). My advice, an interesting exercise but be an original. If you are intent on writing a symphony, don't waste half of it quoting a dead guy, even if he was the greatest symphonist ever ( just my opinion, of course). More cheap advice: don't worry about what is doable, translatable to a real orchestra for now. It is valuable and necessary if that is where you are headed, but for the present let it be a total act of joyful creation. You are only fifteen! Live a little. Contact your muse. Leave the perfectionism for refining what you have done. Of course I improvised my Synthony in ten days with no knowledge of the cold facts. I would post it but I am not a certified member as of yet. I am sure the criticism will be withering from the masters here. Last piece of advice: the zen master, Shuntyu Suzuki said, to the expert the possibilities are few, to the beginner many. Have a beginner's mind. It's more fun.


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## IpadComposer (Aug 12, 2018)

Ummm, just lost a post with a lot of cheap advice. Here's the gist, get in touch with your heart. Romeo was fifteen. Compose from a place of adventure. Anything is possible... At least on a computer. The zen master Shunryu Suzuki said: to the beginner the possibilities are many, to the expert the possibilities are few. Don't get shut down just yet by the rules. Create! Fly! Crash! Rise again!

Oh, and cut Schoenberg some slack! The dude lived a hundred years ago. And don't spend half your first, fantastic symphony quoting a dead guy, even if he is probably the greatest symphonist ever. ( just my point of view, you understand)


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