# Be (Dis)Honest Here #i: Can You Enjoy Music Without Artillery?



## Mahlerian

You know, lots of people have written classical music, but only the _real_ classics use weapons, which is what separates the manly men from the effete.

We have the weaker variety of this piece, wherein the sounds are simulated via orchestral means, like Penderecki's Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, Shostakovich's 11th Symphony, or Crumb's Black Angels.

But everyone knows the _*real*_ pieces in this vein are the ones that use actual weapons to produce the sounds, like Beethoven's Battle Symphony and that wonderful piece Pete Tchaikovsky wrote to celebrate the American defeat of the British in the War of 1812.

Do you think that all of these string quartets, piano quartets, and symphonies where the composer rudely forgets to include the motor horn and has to write another should be scrapped? I'm just bringing up an honest question here.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

LOL 

......haha.....


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## Kieran

Excellent question! And it has a certain symmetry with my own thinking on whether Wolfie should have left his piano quartets as they originally were, that is, piano quintets! For piano, violin, viola, cello and pistol.

The removal of the pistol from the score does egregious damage to the whole. Unusually for Mozart, he unbalanced the work. But this wasn't wholly his fault: Costanza was pregnant and the firing of the pistol every few bars _didn't_ have the Mozart Effect we now associate with the chap.

Oh, and did you know that he wrote a 42nd symphony? It was called the _Die_ _Hard_ Symphony, for orchestra, cannon and Mean Stare. It was stolen by the Russians, I think...


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## Novelette

Mahlerian, thank you for bringing this up. I've been struggling with this question from the very first.

Obviously there must always be a few blasts in each movement. If it doesn't _move_, it's no movement in my book!


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## Novelette

Kieran said:


> Excellent question! And it has a certain symmetry with my own thinking on whether Wolfie should have left his piano quartets as they originally were, that is, piano quintets! For piano, violin, viola, cello and pistol.
> 
> The removal of the pistol from the score does egregious damage to the whole. Unusually for Mozart, he unbalanced the work. But this wasn't wholly his fault: Costanza was pregnant and the firing of the pistol every few bars _didn't_ have the Mozart Effect we now associate with the chap.
> 
> Oh, and did you know that he wrote a 42nd symphony? It was called the _Die_ _Hard_ Symphony, for orchestra, cannon and Mean Stare. It was stolen by the Russians, I think...


Maybe _this_ is what our friend in the thread about Mozart being overrated meant! Mozart is overrated because he left out the big guns?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Satie used to keep a loaded pistol on the piano when he played in salons. If you don't like his music...BANG.


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## Novelette

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Satie used to keep a loaded pistol on the piano when he played in salons. If you don't like his music...BANG.


If he's inclined to play the whole "Vexations", I might have to elect for the other option. I can't deal...


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## Yardrax

I can't believe all these wigs in this day and age obsessing mainly over the cannon music of the 18th and 19th centuries. Practically everything which could be said through the medium of gunpowder has been said, whereas modern weaponry has opened up a much broader means of expression for composers than was possible in earlier times. Personally, I'm a big fan of some of the recent pieces written for tomahawk missile with tape noise. Some very visceral commentary on the postmodern condition among those works.


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## KenOC

Spike Jones always had a pistol in hand for accents at the right moments. I understand his players were uncommonly disciplined as well. May be a connection there...


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## PetrB

ca. @ 1'04


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## ahammel

Did'ja hear about the composer who only wrote works of imitative counterpoint for artillery?

He greatly expanded the canon canon canon.


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## Mesa

ahammel said:


> Did'ja hear about the composer who only wrote works of imitative counterpoint for artillery?
> 
> He greatly expanded the canon canon canon.












And everyone has to love when an orchestra builds up the 1812 in the most bombastic way, and then it climaxes by someone hitting the 'bang' sound effect on a yamaha home keyboard.

(The piece has been forever tainted for me by a Frasier gag, _Niles: Dad's so set in his ways. Frasier: Well, we all are, at some point in our lives. Remember when you used to think the 1812 Overture was a great piece of classical music? Niles: Was I ever that young?_)


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## Sid James

Mahlerian said:


> You know, lots of people have written classical music, but only the _real_ classics use weapons, which is what separates the manly men from the effete...


Well you are WRONG!

Haydn could use a blunderbuss...but nobody saw him do it.

Mozart started building a working model of one of those wierd tanks sketched by Leonardo da Vinci centuries before...but Wolfie didn't finish it, a guy called Sussmayer did, and in the end it didn't turn out to be a tank but a Requiem.

So instead of this...we got this. I always thought Wolfie's requiem was nothing much like he envisaged it - given these facts, I now feel they have vindicated my initial gut reaction!

I can't come up with anything witty for Boccherini, another bewigged gentleman who was a composer, but nobody cares about him anyway cos he composed 124 string quintets with the aid of a sewing machine. Well, what if he'd built a factory to produce cannon balls instead? Would that have been better? Maybe yeah if Tchaikovsky wanted to use them 100 years later. Maybe using them to accompany a string quintet would have been overkill for Luigi?...


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## violadude

Oh dear, I knew it would only be a matter of time before this became satire. :lol:


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## moody

Mahlerian said:


> You know, lots of people have written classical music, but only the _real_ classics use weapons, which is what separates the manly men from the effete.
> 
> We have the weaker variety of this piece, wherein the sounds are simulated via orchestral means, like Penderecki's Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, Shostakovich's 11th Symphony, or Crumb's Black Angels.
> 
> But everyone knows the _*real*_ pieces in this vein are the ones that use actual weapons to produce the sounds, like Beethoven's Battle Symphony and that wonderful piece Pete Tchaikovsky wrote to celebrate the American defeat of the British in the War of 1812.
> 
> Do you think that all of these string quartets, piano quartets, and symphonies where the composer rudely forgets to include the motor horn and has to write another should be scrapped? I'm just bringing up an honest question here.


Well,well,well I am surprised at you --1812 was written to celebrate Russia's success against Napoleon.


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## KenOC

moody said:


> Well,well,well I am surprised at you --1812 was written to celebrate Russia's success against Napoleon.


Silly thing to say. Why else would it be performed at every 4th of July concert? :lol:


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## moody

violadude said:


> Oh dear, I knew it would only be a matter of time before this became satire. :lol:


I think it already was.


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## Kleinzeit

Yardrax said:


> I can't believe all these wigs in this day and age obsessing mainly over the cannon music of the 18th and 19th centuries. Practically everything which could be said through the medium of gunpowder has been said, whereas modern weaponry has opened up a much broader means of expression for composers than was possible in earlier times. Personally, I'm a big fan of some of the recent pieces written for tomahawk missile with tape noise. Some very visceral commentary on the postmodern condition among those works.











d'you exshpect me to shing?


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## arpeggio

*1812 Overture and the Fourth of July*



moody said:


> Well,well,well I am surprised at you --1812 was written to celebrate Russia's success against Napoleon.


There is an unusual phenomenon concerning the _1812 Overture _ in the states. It is a tradition here to perform _1812_ at Fourth of July celebrations. I think it was started by Fiedler when he was the conductor of the Boston Pops.

I have told the following story before in another thread.

We had an interesting situation concerning our community band. We play at the annual 4th of July celebration. A few years ago the 4th of July committee was complaining that the music we were playing was too pop oriented and they wanted more patriotic music like _Stars and Stripes Forever_ and the _1812 Overture_ (?) Many of the committee did not know the background of the _1812_. They had no idea that it was composed by a gay Russian in 1880 to commemorate the Russian defeat of Napoleon when he invaded Russia. According to a friend who attended the meeting, they back down when our director made the point that if we recognized their criteria, we would have to eliminate _1812_ from the program.


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## Schubussy

Classical with no artillery is like dub reggae with no bass.


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## moody

KenOC said:


> Silly thing to say. Why else would it be performed at every 4th of July concert? :lol:


Tchaikovsky was commissioned by Nicholas Rubinstein in 1880 to write a festive and patriotic piece to coincide with the Moscow Arts and Industry Exhibition and with the consecration of the Moscow Cathedral of the Saviour (built to commemorate the liberation of Russians from the 1812 Napoleonic invasion).This is history and I bet you could have looked this up quite easily,i wonder what the like from Coag is supposed to signify ?


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## Ingélou

I voted 'weakling & pacifist' because gunfire could drown out the delicate sound of baroque instruments, and mishits damage the fabric of ye olde churches in which the concerts are usually staged. 

But I'm astounded and not a little insulted that there wasn't an option for 'acoustic pistols'. 

Obviously none of you know about Norwich Baroque's celebrated Lully Chaconne; during the sixth and twelfth bars, the music rests for a dotted minim so that the miraculous frou-frou of massed peashooters (well, three actually) can be heard.


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## Manxfeeder

PDQ Bach was the man!


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## Skilmarilion

Mahlerian said:


> Pete Tchaikovsky


This reminded me - to be really honest I don't think composers' names are anglicised and shortened enough.

It's a lot more interesting when you're chilling to some Fred Chopin, Andy Vivaldi, Bob Schumann, Mo Ravel, Eddy Elgar and of course, Dick Wagner.


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## Mahlerian

Skilmarilion said:


> This reminded me - to be really honest I don't think composers' names are anglicised and shortened enough.
> 
> It's a lot more interesting when you're chilling to some Fred Chopin, Andy Vivaldi, Bob Schumann, Mo Ravel, Eddy Elgar and of course, Dick Wagner.


But not all of them were so in tune with American patriotism (quite clearly and scientifically the greatest nation on Earth) as Pete, except maybe Dick...

Luigi Beethoven, of course, was for the other side, so he can't be trusted.


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## Guest

Well Mahlerian. LOL. Quite funny.


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## ptr

I really hate music that is artificially inflated with gunpowder, makes my ears explode!








/ptr


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## Sid James

Re the highbrow historical analysis of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture - Mahlerian was just testing in his opening post about that. He was being (dis)honest on purpose. But all of you are wrong. It was actually written for the Australian Army, according to this very reputable academic source, a television commercial. You guys just don't check the right sources, do you? :lol: ...


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## Pianoxtreme

I think I heard a few gunshots while attending a performance of a Mozart Symphony once. But I'm pretty sure that they were fired by the conductor and aimed at the horn section.


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## arpeggio

*Corigliano Symphony Number Three*

John Corigliano employs a shotgun in his _Third Symphony_.


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## KenOC

Projectile weaponry seems popular in English music. For instance:

Malcolm Arnold: A Grand, Grand Overture for 3 Vacuum Cleaners, 1 Floor Polisher, 4 Rifles and Orchestra


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## Taggart

KenOC said:


> Projectile weaponry seems popular in English music. For instance:
> 
> Malcolm Arnold: A Grand, Grand Overture for 3 Vacuum Cleaners, 1 Floor Polisher, 4 Rifles and Orchestra


Ho, Ho, Hoffnung!


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## TresPicos

It would be one thing if no one had thought of using artillery in classical music in the first place, but once it was included by someone, then why remove it again? It's just as stupid as if they - after the first time they combined the different parts of the string section with woodwinds and brass and percussion to make a full orchestra - had said "Wow, the sound was amazing! So rich! Let's never do this again!"...

Like when Haydn wrote his Surprise symphony... What did all the other composers do? Nothing! Man, it could have been a paradigm shift right there! Every symphony could have been a Surprise symphony! And every orchestra could have had a well-hidden artillery section ad-libbing all the way through every concert, keeping the audience forever on their toes. What an adrenalin rush! 

But here we are, listening to the same bland, artilleryless music played the same way over and over again, letting ourselves be lulled further and further into a comfort zone coma, fulfilling only a fraction of our potential. So sad...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

KenOC said:


> Projectile weaponry seems popular in English music. For instance:
> 
> Malcolm Arnold: A Grand, Grand Overture for 3 Vacuum Cleaners, 1 Floor Polisher, 4 Rifles and Orchestra


It's rather a shame when the vacuum cleaner operators get shot at the end :lol:


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## Kieran

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> It's rather a shame when the vacuum cleaner operators get shot at the end :lol:


Like everyone else, they learn to suck it up...


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## arpeggio

arpeggio said:


> John Corigliano employs a shotgun in his _Third Symphony_.


Found video of performance:


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## Huilunsoittaja

arpeggio said:


> John Corigliano employs a shotgun in his _Third Symphony_.


YES! The Circus Maximus symphony ends with a gun shot, I've seen it LIVE! When the percussionist, wearing a headset, took the pistol and and displayed it to the audience from where he stood in the back of the stage, I knew it was gonna be trouble. It was so loud, I thought someone might break out in a seizure in that concert hall!  But no one did, everyone was just shocked, but clapped after. That is an AMAZING symphony, so glad I saw it performed live, even 2 times (the 2nd time was from behind stage where the gun shot wasn't as loud)!


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## Albert7

Cannons are cool but machine guns are better:


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## Albert7

arpeggio said:


> John Corigliano employs a shotgun in his _Third Symphony_.


But not approved by the N.R.A. however.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I like my artillery.

Boom Boom Boom

Boom!


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## omega

With or without canons, I don't like the _Overture 1812_


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## Guest

I voted last option, because weapons are not musical instruments and so cannot create music and therefore have no place being mixed in with actual music. If it's not on a five bar stave it isn't music.


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## Becca

dogen said:


> I voted last option, because weapons are not musical instruments and so cannot create music and therefore have no place being mixed in with actual music. If it's not on a five bar stave it isn't music.


That seems to be a very restrictive view of music and one that people from non-western cultures would find demeaning.


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## Becca

And let's not forget Beethoven's _Wellington's Victory_


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## KenOC

I admit to enjoying those occasional string quartets written with parts for light ordnance obbligato.


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## MoonlightSonata

Heavy, overly dramatic pieces with weapons are wonderful, but even better is when they are more restrained, like the light clacking of spears occasionally seen in early romantic music.


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## Becca

I wonder if any of the music schools offer courses in Pyrotechnic Performance


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## hpowders

I would have loved it if in the second movement of Beethoven's Pastorale, just before most folks are being lulled to sleep, near the boring brook, Beethoven inserted some ffff timpani blasts indicating premature thunder claps!

Surprised at Beethoven. He usually has such an infectious musical sense of humor!


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## pierrot

I already hear gun shots often enough in my neighborhood, to be honest.


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## joen_cph

Satie´s _Parade_ wasn´t mentioned but also include gunshots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parade_(ballet)
https://artmodel.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/modern-times-satie-picasso-and-a-crazy-parade/

I vastly prefer drums and timpani in music though, since there´s usually much more of it, compared to single gun-shots. BTW, don´t know of a machinegun piece; how come ???


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## Albert7

joen_cph said:


> Satie´s _Parade_ wasn´t mentioned but also include gunshots
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parade_(ballet)
> https://artmodel.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/modern-times-satie-picasso-and-a-crazy-parade/
> 
> I vastly prefer drums and timpani in music though, since there´s usually much more of it, compared to single gun-shots. BTW, don´t know of a machinegun piece; how come ???


Machine gun shells are expensive to cap... and orchestras are on a budget in today's world.


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## MoonlightSonata

A nice cannon blast would go down well in quite a few of the more formulaic Classical symphonies.


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## KenOC

Let's not forget "A Grand, Grand Overture" by Malcolm Arnold. It's scored for full symphony orchestra, organ, 3 vacuum cleaners, an electric floor polisher, and 4 rifles.


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## Albert7

KenOC said:


> Let's not forget "A Grand, Grand Overture" by Malcolm Arnold. It's scored for full symphony orchestra, organ, 3 vacuum cleaners, an electric floor polisher, and 4 rifles.


vacuum cleaners? I really need to hear this fine masterpiece then.


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## SimonNZ

What about a performance of the 1812 Overture where Dyan Cannon comes out going "Boom! Boom!", with a hip-thrust after each boom?


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## Lord Lance

Mahlerian said:


> Be (Dis)Honest Here #i: Can You Enjoy Music Without Artillery?


Very funny. Well played. Didn't think anyone would remember those threads.

_*If it don't boom, it gotta go.*_


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## Becca

albertfallickwang said:


> vacuum cleaners? I really need to hear this fine masterpiece then.


If I remember correctly (without running into the other room to look!) it came from the second of the Hoffnung Festivals


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## Überstürzter Neumann

Just look at my avatar. Shouldn't it be obvious I want my artillery pieces?


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## Badinerie

Malcolm Arnolds vacuum cleaners dont get much concert use. Nowdays they're just collecting dust.

The last act of Tosca isnt the same without an actual firing squad. If they dont have one I wont even applaud at the end. A few casualties amongst the orchestra is acceptable in the name of authenticity.


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## Polyphemus

For his recording of the Mahler 6 on CBS didn't Lenny and the NYPO have a special drum made for the last movement. i wonder if they still have and use it.


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## ptr

I believe that the lack of guns in music is why classical music is failing in North America, if the Symphony organizations could get some blasting support from NRA, it would be a real tide breaker!








/ptr


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## Polyphemus

ptr said:


> I believe that the lack of guns in music is why classical music is failing in North America, if the Symphony organizations could get some blasting support from NRA, it would be a real tide breaker!
> View attachment 64119
> 
> 
> /ptr


Good point ptr. They could also arm the audience who after all have paid good money for the performance and in the event of a really awful performance (someone coughing during 4' 33") then they are fair game (silencers please). Overactive conductors beware. It would also end the lamentable habit of clapping between movements and woe betide those who ignore mobile phone etiquette.


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## Zarathustra

Some people talk about how long it took for the music of Mahler or Schubert to be recognized as great, but the name everyone keeps forgetting is Emperor Nero. Here we are in the 21st century and I can't find a performance of his Concerto for Lyre and flame torches anywhere.


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## hpowders

Since I find myself mostly listening to the intimate keyboard works of Bach, I would place myself in the "weakling pacifist" category. Just don't call me that to my face.

I've never been into loud, bombastic music.

Give me Bach's Goldbergs or Miles Davis' sultry, sensual trumpet.


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## Morimur

What we need in this world are _more guns_. I propose we commission _John Adams_ to write the very first _NRA Symphony: BANG! BANG!_ One stipulation though; the piece must include _a school children's choir._

What say ye?


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## TxllxT

One of the reasons why Harnoncourt's interpretation of _Don Giovanni_ with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra continues to amaze me is his decision to do the heavy blows - when Il Commendatore re-enters the stage - solely by means of the orchestra. The dramatic effect is more devastating than when this banging is produced non-instrumentally. With the introduction of extra-orchestral sounds one easily gets distracted, the drama becomes fun and all is lost.

Von Karajan's rendering of the _Rheingold_ ouverture IMO remains unsurpassed, because he integrates all the clamor, tumult & din from the underworld into a frantic rhythm, into a musical texture that is gripping. Compared with this Solti produces only loose metal-on-metal rambling, very loud & very weak indeed in its dramatic effect.

With the _1812 ouverture_ I definitely prefer the complete version with chorus. In the finale one is waiting for the shivers over the spine to go up & down, but *who* will trigger this: the cannons or the choir singing? I bet this double treat was in Tchaikovsky's mind, when he wrote down the music.


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