# Composers borrowing from each other + other quotations



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

This thread is dedicated to specific similarities in the themes, motives, melodies, gestures and harmonies of different composers.

My first example:

*Schumann: Symphony No. 3., 1st Movement
Brahms: Piano Concerto No. 2, 2nd Movement*

It is like a major and minor version of the same idea.

In this instance it would appear that Schumann was the inventor of the idea, and Brahms is consciously referring to the theme of his old friend.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

And here is another one. I am surprised that people do not comment on this clear compliment from Sibelius to Brahms.

*Brahms: Symphony no. 1, 1st Movement, horn theme which appears first time around 3 minutes into the movement, before the "Beethoven theme."

Sibelius: Symphony no. 7, the three appearances of the great trombone theme.*

Both appear to be in C Major (at least according to my ear), and both appear "above" an atmospheric and mystic landscape. Clearly a conscious gesture from Sibelius' behalf, do you not think?


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Waehnen said:


> This thread is dedicated to specific similarities in the themes, motives, melodies, gestures and harmonies of different composers.
> 
> My first example:
> 
> ...


What? Maybe your ears are better than mine, but I hardly hear the connection at all.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> What? Maybe your ears are better than mine, but I hardly hear the connection at all.


You hear the connection hardly or not at all? Listen to the dance rhythm and the directions of the melodic movement. There it is!


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I don't think either of your examples is an obvious or convincing instance of conscious inspiration / quotation.

I hear the connection hardly, you're gonna have to do a lot more than point out the obvious similarities to convince me that there was conscious inspiration.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I don't think either of your examples is an obvious or convincing instance of conscious inspiration / quotation.
> 
> I hear the connection hardly, you're gonna have to do a lot more than point out the obvious similarities to convince me that there was conscious inspiration.


I consider it possible that both inspirations were unconscious. How could I possibly know for sure? Hence, there is no way I can convince you. Other than saying that the Brahms theme would not have been without Schumann and the Sibelius theme would not have been without Brahms.

Anyway, this is a thread for precisely this kind of conversation we are having now on the matter.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Waehnen said:


> You hear the connection hardly or not at all? Listen to the dance rhythm and the directions of the melodic movement. There it is!


I haven't noticed it but now that you've pointed it out, I agree that the themes are similar to each other.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

The opening of Haydn Symphony no. 104 and the opening of Schumann Symphony no. 2











Mozart's K. 222 and the Ode to Joy Theme






Mendelssohn Octet for Strings finale quote of "And he shall reign forever and ever" from the Hallelujah chorus in Messiah






Mahler Symphony 5 movement 1 trumpet opening and Beethoven Symphony 5 fate motif:


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

ORigel said:


> The opening of Haydn Symphony no. 104 and the opening of Schumann Symphony no. 2
> 
> Mozart's K. 222 and the Ode to Joy Theme
> 
> Mendelssohn Octet for Strings finale quote of "And he shall reign forever and ever" from the Hallelujah chorus in Messiah


I've always thought the B theme of Beethoven's Fourth PC and Ode to Joy are likely connected.

I wonder if anyone else has had this thought.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think the beginning of Brahms' scherzo in op.83 is a sped-up version of the 2nd? movement (a slowish scherzo) of his own 1st serenade.
The first movement of Brahms' 3rd symphony has often been connected with the first of the "Rhenish" because the character of the main theme is similar.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I've always thought the B theme of Beethoven's Fourth PC and Ode to Joy are likely connected.
> 
> I wonder if anyone else has had this thought.


I doubt it, but there is a resemblance between the themes.


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

There is a part in Forqueray's La Régente that sounds similar to François Couperin's Les Barricades Mistérieuses.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"Martin y Soler Una Cosa Rara. If ever proof were required that time brings its revenge, one need look no further than Una cosa rara. Originally, in Vienna, eclipsing Mozart's Figaro in popularity, and enjoying a huge success throughout Europe (it was translated into five languages and quoted in other works, such as Storace's Siege of Belgrade), it now, ironically, is remembered only because Mozart introduces a tune from its Act 1 finale into the supper scene of Don Giovanni."













"Anastasio Martín Ignacio Vicente Tadeo Francisco Pellegrin Martín y Soler (2 May 1754 - 30 January or 10 February 1806) was a Spanish composer of opera and ballet. Although relatively obscure now, in his own day he was compared favorably with his contemporary and admirer, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, as a composer of opera buffa. In his time he was called "Martini lo spagnuolo" ("Martini the Spaniard"); in modern times, he has been called "the Valencian Mozart". He was known primarily for his melodious Italian comic operas and his work with Lorenzo Da Ponte in the late 18th century, as well as the melody from Una cosa rara quoted in the dining scene of Mozart's Don Giovanni."


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Here is another one!

*Schubert: Impromptu no. 3. op. 90

Schumann: Dichterliebe, song 1: Im wunderschönen Monat Mai*

Here it would seem the melody and the chord structure are almost exactly the same.

I remember hearing even a 3rd one with the same melody/chords, could have been Schumann as well.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Brahms borrowed liberally from Schumann - 
Esp with Brahms sym #3/I - first theme, descending line - 
Schumann used this same line in both syms 1 and 3


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> Here is another one!
> 
> *Schubert: Impromptu no. 3. op. 90
> 
> ...


Now I remembered the 3rd one! *Schumann: Widmund from Myrthen, op. 25*


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

The third movement of Berio’s Sinfonia uses a huge number of quotations, most notably the third movement of Mahler 2 (which in turn is based on Mahler’s song on St Anthony’s sermon for the fishes).


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Schumann: Piano Concerto (beginning)
Wagner: Die Walkure (towards the end of Act II)

Beethoven: Symphony no. V (fate motif)
Tchaikovsky: Symphony no. VI (third movement)

Beethoven: Symphony no. V (fate motif)
Glazunov: Overture "The Song of Destiny" (in reversing the major-minor relationship of that motif)

Glazunov: Symphony no. II (second movement, andante)
Rachmaninoff: Piano Concerto no. II (second movement, Adagio sostenuto)

Glinka: Valse-Fantastique
Glazunov: incidental score for Mikhail Lermontov's play "Masquerade"

Schumann: Symphony no. III
Brahms: Symphony no. III

Beethoven: Symphonies V and IX
Brahms: Symphony no. I

Bach: Brandenburg Concerto no. III
Reger: Suite in the Olden Style in F major

Brahms: Symphony no. IV (third movement)
Stanford: Symphony no. III (third movement)

Grieg: Piano Concerto
Atterberg: Piano Concerto


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Shostakovich's symphony no. 15, has easily recognizable quotes from Rossini's Wilhelm Tell overture and Wagner's Walküre.
While he maintained that he was unable to explain his extended use of musical quotation, he also said that he "could not, could not, not include them."


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

The first version of Bruckner's third symphony, especially the second movement.


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## chipia (Apr 22, 2021)

Charles Ives Concord Sonata quotes the famous 4-note motive from Beethoven's 5th Symphony.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Brahms 1 Finale Mahler 3 beginning

"And He shall reign" at end of Missa Solemnis

Opening of Brahms Fourth and passage in slow movement of Hammerklavier Sonata

Opening of Finlandia and 1950s monster film

Main themes of Brahms' piano concerti (1/i and 2/iii)

Schubert D major piano sonata and Academic Festival Overture

Mozart c minor Serenade and Britten's Young Person's Guide


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

The start of Goldmark's "Rustic Symphony" and the opening motif of Adeste Fideles


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Raff's 4th Symphony has a tiny quote from Beethoven's final movement of the Ninth. Starts at 28.04 in this video.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

ORigel said:


> The opening of Haydn Symphony no. 104 and the opening of Schumann Symphony no. 2


Sorry, where/what is the "quotation"?



> Mahler Symphony 5 movement 1 trumpet opening and Beethoven Symphony 5 fate motif:


The Mahler opening is actually more similar to Haydn 100th


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Bartok quotes the main theme from the first movement of Shostakovich's _Symphony #7_ in _Concerto for Orchestra_.

Mendelssohn borrows a theme from Bach in the finale of _Symphony #5 "Reformation"_; "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" which Bach was said to get from Martin Luther.

William Schuman borrows themes from William Billings in _New England Triptych_.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

1:58, 3:20




3:55, 4:58





1. Missa in C, sancti Francisci Seraphici, MH119 (1768~1770*; M. Haydn) 
2. Missa longa in C, K.262 (1775; W.A. Mozart)
3. Missa in C, sancti Hieronymi, MH254 (1777; M. Haydn)
4. Missa aulica in C, K.337 (1780; W.A. Mozart)

1-2: "Laudamus te"; 







2-3: "Cum sancto spiritu" 















3-4: "Et incarnatus est"; not exactly a "quotation", but the emphasis on sequential melodies in steps and the general impression of chromatic harmonies of each is reminiscent of those of the other









*About the composition year indicated in the title of the video, 1756, I think the uploader has mistaken it with that of another Missa in C, sancti Francisci Seraphici (MH43). I think MH119 sounds way too Classical to be genuinely a work from the 1750s.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Vasks said:


> The start of Goldmark's "Rustic Symphony" and the opening motif of Adeste Fideles


Love the picture - Pieter Brueghel the Elder...


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

I've got the Michael Haydn Symphony No. 28 beat by over twenty years. The finale of F.J. Haydn's Symphony No. 13 (1763) sounds like it was directly cribbed by Mozart in his number 41:




Hmm, I wonder which symphony Charles Villiers Stanford was listening to before writing this? Hint: initials J.B.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

christomacin said:


> The finale of F.J. Haydn's Symphony No. 13 (1763) sounds like it was directly cribbed by Mozart in his number 41


A superficial thematic resemblance. The practice of using the 'C-D-F-E' in contrapuntal music had been around since Josquin. Mozart did it in his 1st and 33rd symphonies and K.192 missa brevis. I'll elaborate more on this later.


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## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

Compare the opening themes of Brahms' 1st PC and Mozart's 24th PC. 

Beethoven borrowed the opening of the 4th movement of Mozart's 40th Symphony for the 3rd movement of his 5th.

Baroque composers used each other's melodies a lot.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Brahms op 1 / Beethoven hammerklavier mvt i


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

christomacin said:


> The finale of F.J. Haydn's Symphony No. 13 (1763) sounds like it was directly cribbed by Mozart in his number 41


What you're saying is like "this piano sonata written by F.W. Rust (1739-1796) in 1788 



 has thematic material taken from Bach Musikalisches Opfer; so it is somehow related to Mozart Fantasie K.475".



> I've got the Michael Haydn Symphony No. 28 beat by over twenty years.


The final movements of Michael Haydn's 28th and Mozart's 41st are related not by some generic material, but by structure; look at the sequences of juxtapositions of strettos in the middle of their developments, for example:












 3:20, 3:24, 3:28, 3:32 ...




 4:58, 5:00, 5:02, 5:04 ...

or these sections (leading to the codettas) in both works;









-----
Btw, I'll also give examples of what I think of as genuine 'borrowings of thematic material' between Haydn and Mozart:
Haydn 75th symphony 



Mozart 15th concerto 




Mozart 40th symphony 



Haydn Die Jahreszeiten


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> A superficial thematic resemblance. The practice of using the 'C-D-F-E' in contrapuntal music had been around since Josquin. Mozart did it in his 1st and 33rd symphonies and K.192 missa brevis. I'll elaborate more on this later.


I very clearly sounds like the Haydn symphony and it has been remarked about many times over the years. I don't think it is a coincidence at all.


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> A superficial thematic resemblance. The practice of using the 'C-D-F-E' in contrapuntal music had been around since Josquin. Mozart did it in his 1st and 33rd symphonies and K.192 missa brevis. I'll elaborate more on this later.


I very clearly sounds like the Haydn symphony and it has been remarked about many times over the years. Haydn also wrote it around 1763, the year before Mozart wrote his first symphony in 1764 at age 8 or so. I don't think it is a coincidence at all. Anyway, Mozart could well have borrowed from both Haydn brothers: the theme from one, the structure from the other.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think many of these "quotations", especially in the 18th century and earlier, aren't quotations at all. The "Jupiter/Credo" motive occurs in about three Mozart symphonies (#33 and an earlier one), not counting choral music or pieces by other composers. It's a "brick", a commonplace building block of (18th century) music. 
There are a few pretty clear quotations and homages, such as Brahms sonata op.1 and Beethoven's op.106 and a few borderline cases but many are spurious.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

christomacin said:


> I very clearly sounds like the Haydn symphony


How? I'm not sure what you mean by "clearly sounds like"- have you listened to Haydn's 75th and Mozart's 15th concerto, which I had posted as legitimate examples of thematic borrowings in my previous post? The harmonic styles in these composers are different. The only thing they have in common (to be noteworthy) is the generic theme, C-D-F-E (and it isn't even a 'quotation of Haydn', in the case of Mozart's 41st). There are ways all these composers sound different. (plus, certain expressions involving the oboe, bassoon ensemble groups and certain chromatic passage trademarks of M. Haydn which make him also sound different from Mozart). I've talked about the harmonic aspect in some of my posts in other threads:
[ "Some people talk as if the 4th movement is all about the fugato coda, but I'm also intrigued by expressions like 



which are not part of the language of the other two members of the so-called 'Viennese school'




 " (*post2182029*) ]
( and also look at [ *post2156504* ] ). We have to recognize and look beyond trivial resemblances, (which were used rather more as "clichés" by the composers at the time), to discuss what's meaningful regarding this topic.



> and it has been remarked about many times over the years.


By whom? In where?



> Haydn also wrote it around 1763, the year before Mozart wrote his first symphony in 1764 at age 8 or so.


So the 8 year-old Mozart working as an "apprentice composer" at the time, had his father telling him; "a composer in Eisenstadt, named Haydn (who was also somewhat of a "lesser-known, apprentice composer" at the time), composed a symphony on the theme 'C-D-F-E' an year ago. You should do the same." Seems legit.



> I don't think it is a coincidence at all. Anyway, Mozart could well have borrowed from both Haydn brothers: the theme from one, the structure from the other.


Again, the 'C-D-F-E' in itself was a generic theme, both in contrapuntal works and fugal improvisations. It's even found in the credo of Josquin's Missa pange lingua. A ton of its variants had been used by church composers between Josquin and Mozart (for its gesture symbolizing the creed and the cross). So you're saying the use of the generic theme in Mozart's 1st and 33rd symphonies all comes from Haydn. And even the credo of the K.192 missa brevis, 



 Mozart had Haydn in mind while composing it. And all these are "homage to Haydn". Seems legit.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

For a while I was wondering who Mahler is quoting in the 1st Movement of the 4th Symphony. Then I realized: he is quoting the main theme of the 1st Rasumovsky quartet in F major!


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