# Help a Wagner virgin



## knownowt (Aug 17, 2011)

Hello, I'm new to this forum.

I'm a huge opera fan but know nothing about Wagner. I wondered whether anyone could suggest where to start (which operas, which recordings)?


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Welcome to the forum! With Wagner I would advise to go headlong for _Die Walküre_, either with good DVDs (I heard Barenboim has quality) or with CDs where my personal favorite is Leinsdorf.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

If you want to try a complete opera of Wagner's straight from the off then I think the nearest you can get to dipping your toe in the water rather than plunging in at the deep end is to try The Flying Dutchman - at c 2.5 hours it's shorter than all of his others (except for Das Rheingold, which is part one of four of the gargantuan Ring cycle anyway). I've got Otto Klemperer's EMI recording from 1968 and I'm very fond of it. Great music and - for Wagner standards - an easy to follow plot, too.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Again, welcome!

Since you're an opera fan already, are there any periods/composers/works you particularly enjoy?

If you're more used to works from up until the middle of the nineteenth century (Handel, Mozart, Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, early Verdi), you might have an easier time with Wagner's earlier Romantic operas (_Der Fliegende Hollander_, _Tannhauser_, _Lohengrin_).

If you enjoy works from the late nineteenth century onwards (late Verdi, Puccini, Debussy, Strauss, Britten), you might find yourself more in tune with Wagner's later works (_The Ring_, _Tristan_, _Die Meistersinger_, _Parsifal_).

Over the course of his long career, Wagner had a large hand in changing opera. So the works of his you'll like best may depend partly on how you feel about that change as a whole.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

It is to be said, though, that Meistersinger is perhaps Wagner's most "available" opera. Even though it's a 5 hour comedy, the music is fantastic, very entertaining plot, some very charming melodies and some very funny bits.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

A follow-up question. Have you watched much opera on DVD, and if so, have you preferred more traditional productions (with period sets and costumes), or have you liked more avant-garde approaches that depart from the norm? That would help a lot in suggesting possible Wagner DVDs for you.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

What worked for me after 25 years of not liking Wagner: starting off with Lohengrin.

Then watching the traditional Met Ring on Met Player: Das Rheingold. That way I got a pretty straight telling of the story. (There are a lot of versions I prefer now, but this was a good intro.)

Listening to Deryck Cooke's analysis of the leitmotifs in the Ring. Really added to the enjoyment.

Never looked back.

Warning: Wagner is bad for your wallet.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

The work that got me interested was the Das Rheingold that mamascarletti mentions, though I'm still not a complete Wagnerphile as yet. And I'd been watching opera steadily for about two years before I tried out Wagner; I think if I'd tried earlier, I wouldn't have appreciated it. But Das Rheingold really was great, I sat slack jawed through most of it. I couldn't believe it actually existed and had been created by a single person. And one moment in particular is among my top two or three moments watching opera, ever, and I had to watch it 9 or 10 times in a row.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

While my mentor in theatre and in astronomy; Jack F. Horkheimer's favorite was Wagner. Sadly, I never spend enough personal time with him to learn much about music...I played a few times at his piano at his home but other than that, we didn't speak much classical...what we did speak was creation of shows for the public and on the education of the skies above us and we teamed up to create so many marvelous projects I had the priviledge of working with him on...still, Wagner being his favorite, I never took the time to sit down a listen to it with him...

I'd like to honor him, my former boss may he rest in peace, by educating myself here better on this thread which about HIS favorite composer...and see, perhaps, what he saw....

Thank you for posting!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Traditionally people often advise Wagner newbies to start with Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg (light, funny, entertaining) or Der Fliegende Holländer (easier) but unlike my own advice in the past, today I'll say that you should start by the full Ring cycle.

For recommendations, you'll find lists of most recommended DVDs in the sticky thread in the Opera on DVD and Blu-ray subforum, as I strongly recommend a DVD rather than a CD for a first contact with the Ring.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I don't recommend this for everyone-- 
but my _entreé_ into Wagner was *Tannhäuser*.

I have an hypothesis- if you're a Classical Music fan first and an Opera fan second, or if you're co-equal on these two fronts, then you're less likely to mind the (seemingly!) dated story-presentation of *Tannhäuser*.

Can't say I especially mind the idea of springing straight into the _Ring_ cycle, especially considering that your opening foray will be *Das Rheingold*. Many Wagner newcomers have found this to be a nice starting-point.

That I would advise *Flying Dutchman* ahead of *Lohengrin* probably says more about my personal taste than any objective desireability of the one over the other. I will make the obvious point that "Dutchman" is shorter, though...


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## knownowt (Aug 17, 2011)

Thamk you so much everybody. To answer your questions, I'd say I'm equally a fan of opera and classical music generally and my tastes are quite broad- I love Handel and Mozart and Beethoven but also Puccini, Strauss etc..sorry, I'm not being hugely helpful! I rarely watch opera on DVD- I love live opera but otherwise it's CDs only unfortunately.

I shall have a good look at the recommendations on this thread and then head over to Amazon. Thank you again x


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

If you're looking for Wagner on CD (and willing and able to spend the cash), you might consider the Solti Ring cycle, along with the Deryke Cooke introduction mentioned by mamascarlatti. This was the first complete Ring recording, and for many people their first experience of this great work. Many will argue that there are better versions out there musically (at least for some of the individual operas), but none make the story come alive more vividly. It's a great foundation for any Wagner collection.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

TxllxT said:


> Welcome to the forum! With Wagner I would advise to go headlong for _Die Walküre_, either with good DVDs (I heard Barenboim has quality) or with CDs where my personal favorite is Leinsdorf.


I have the Barenboim Die Walkure DVD and love it. The cast is uniformly excellent, partucularly Paul Elming and Nadine Secunda who are most believable as Siegmund and Sieglinde. Also Sir John Tomlinson is an excellent Wotan. To me this is the best and most accessible of the operas. I can also recommend the Leinsdorf on audio. It also offers a magnificent cast with the young Jon Vickers as Siegmund, the much underrated David Ward as Hunding and the great George London as Wotan to mention only three of an excellent ensemble.

My other favorite besides Meistersinger is Parsifal, but hat can come later. My suggestion is start with Walkure.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

GoneBaroque said:


> My suggestion is start with Walkure.


I wholeheartedly agree that _Die Walkure_ is "the best and most accessible of the operas." If you *do* get it on DVD, the Barenboim is a very strong choice. But my personal favorite remains the 1980 Patrice Chereau / Pierre Boulez production. Admittedly, it does not match the video or audio quality of the Barenboim, but the excellent cast (Peter Hofmann and Jeanine Altmeyer are even *more* believable as Siegmund and Sieglinde) and Chereau's powerful direction make the story tremendously compelling.

If you end up loving this opera anywhere near as much as many of us here do, you can't go wrong owning both of these DVDs.

I also agree that _Parsifal_ is wonderful, but should probably be the last one you tackle.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Speaking as a veteran Wagnerite, I would recommend that when you get any of the CDs or DVDs of the Wagner operas, listen or watch one act at a time, and give yourself a breather in between acts. This will make them easier to digest. 
For the CDs, red the libretto ion the booklet with the simultaneous English translation(not all of the sets have this) while listening, or possibly before. You can also download opera translations at the Naxos records website. 
I agree with the recommendation of trying The Flying Dutchman first, because it's mercifully short for Wagner. But if you're willing to take the time and effort to get to know Wagner's works, you never regret this decision ! Wagner is an intoxicating experience .
His music is the bee's knees !


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

I have often enjoyed listening to Wagner while following along with a piano/vocal score (available at many libraries). That way you get not only the German text and English translation, but a visual indication of the music as well. Maybe it's just me, but I find that I discern a lot more if I "see" what I'm hearing.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

amfortas said:


> I have often enjoyed listening to Wagner while following along with a piano/vocal score (available at many libraries). That way you get not only the German text and English translation, but a visual indication of the music as well. Maybe it's just me, but I find that I discern a lot more if I "see" what I'm hearing.


I also really like vocal scores. You can even get them at IMSLP! And many of the Wagner ones even list the Leitmotifs.


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## Ludders (Jun 17, 2011)

I'm still relatively new, (although not completely) to Wagner operas, so this thread has been quite useful for me as well.
I'm mildly surprised though, that no-one has recommended _Tristan und Isolde_. 
The Zubin Mehta dvd was my inititiation into a full Wagner opera, (although i was very famliliar with most of his preludes and orchestral pieces) and i've barely looked back from Wagner ever since.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Ludders said:


> I'm mildly surprised though, that no-one has recommended _Tristan und Isolde_.


The same thought had occurred to me, since _Tristan_ is such a tremendously important landmark, not just in Wagner's oeuvre, but in the history of Western music.

But it makes sense to me that it wouldn't be the first recommendation for a "virgin." While the music is spectacular, anyone approaching the opera as your typical love story may well be mystified. The long second-act love duet, for example, is more about Wagner's abstruse understanding of Schopenhauer than romantic billing and cooing.

There's the story (someone here may know it in more detail than I do) of an Italian, watching that scene, who remarked, "So that's what the Germans think love is"--then went on to add that, at the same point in an Italian rendezvous, the lovers would have already had several children.

(In fairness to Wagner, he *can* be that expeditious. Siegmund and Sieglinde certainly don't waste any time conceiving.)


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## Ludders (Jun 17, 2011)

amfortas said:


> But it makes sense to me that it wouldn't be the first recommendation for a "virgin." While the music is spectacular, anyone approaching the opera as your typical love story may well be mystified. The long second-act love duet, for example, is more about Wagner's abstruse understanding of Schopenhauer than romantic billing and cooing.
> 
> There's the story (someone here may know it in more detail than I do) of an Italian, watching that scene, who remarked, "So that's what the Germans think love is"--then went on to add that, at the same point in an Italian rendezvous, the lovers would have already had several children.


Completely fair enough. 
I know bugger all about italian opera. (or opera in general, for that matter!) My introduction to opera was Richard Wagner, and i'm still finding such a lot to explore in his music that i haven't really got around to anything else. (The sole exception being Richard Strauss' - _Elektra_.)


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Ludders said:


> Completely fair enough.
> I know bugger all about italian opera. (or opera in general, for that matter!) My introduction to opera was Richard Wagner, and i'm still finding such a lot to explore in his music that i haven't really got around to anything else. (The sole exception being Richard Strauss' - _Elektra_.)


If you enjoyed _Elektra_, you should definitely check out _Salome_--in the same let's-push-Wagner-one-step-further vein. If those work for you, you might see what you make of _Der Rosenkavalier_, _Ariadne auf Naxos_, _Capriccio_--Strauss doing his unlikely but oddly compelling Wagner/Mozart hybrid.

Heck, in the end that may lead you to Mozart himself--the long way around!


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## Ludders (Jun 17, 2011)

amfortas said:


> If you enjoyed _Elektra_, you should definitely check out _Salome_--in the same let's-push-Wagner-one-step-further vein. If those work for you, you might see what you make of _Der Rosenkavalier_, _Ariadne auf Naxos_, _Capriccio_--Strauss doing his unlikely but oddly compelling Wagner/Mozart hybrid.
> 
> Heck, in the end that may lead you to Mozart himself--the long way around!


Thanks for the recomendations!
Yes, i really like _Elektra_. My first exposure to it was quite recently in a documentary series about Twentieth Century Music, presented by Simon Rattle. 
This segment, about 2.30 in:






Just that little bit was enough to make want to hear the rest of it, and i bought the Böhm 1981 dvd, which i was really pleased with.










I must investigate more.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Ludders said:


> I must investigate more.


Forgive me if I'm pointing out what you know full well already (in which case, please take this as directed toward others who may not be as aware) . . .

But the same team of Götz Friedrich directing and Karl Böhm conducting also did our TC recommended _Salome_ film featuring Teresa Stratas.










If you liked the one, you'll definitely want to check out the other.


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## Ludders (Jun 17, 2011)

Thanks Amfortas,
I'll put that one down for next payday.


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## rsmithor (Jun 30, 2011)

*Add Robert Donington book "Wagner's Ring and Its Symbols" to your list*

Wagner's Ring and Its Symbols [Paperback]
Robert Donington (Author) 
Paperback: 342 pages
Publisher: Faber & Faber; 3rd edition (June 1984)
Language: English

Robert Donington's book "Wagner's Ring and Its Symbols" puts a real spit shine to Wagner's epic "Ring Cycle".


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## Amfibius (Jul 19, 2006)

amfortas said:


> (In fairness to Wagner, he *can* be that expeditious. Siegmund and Sieglinde certainly don't waste any time conceiving.)


Or Wotan for that matter - he is father of half the characters who appear in the Ring


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

rsmithor said:


> Wagner's Ring and Its Symbols [Paperback]
> Robert Donington (Author)
> Paperback: 342 pages
> Publisher: Faber & Faber; 3rd edition (June 1984)
> ...


Wow, I thought I was the only person in the universe who had read that book (admittedly I bought it back in the 1970s when I first got interested in the Ring cycle). I keep meaning to go back and read the chapters on _Siegfried_ because Lord knows Siegfried is one of the most difficult characters for me to have any sympathy for.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Just for the sake of candor and completeness, there are 
dissenters to Donington's "Jungian interpretation" of the _Ring Cycle_.

See here.:devil:


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Just for the sake of candor and completeness, there are
> dissenters to Donington's "Jungian interpretation" of the _Ring Cycle_.
> 
> See here.:devil:


Yes, Deryck Cooke understandably took a very skeptical view of Donington's approach. He maintained that such a Jungian psychoanalytic perspective imposed any number of extraneous, largely subjective distortions of the characters and their story.

The only quibble I have with Cooke is his insistence that he himself was able to provide a wholly "objective" interpretation that gave each aspect of Wagner's massive, complex cycle exactly the emphasis and meaning the composer intended.

Leaving aside the question of authorial intention, I would simply maintain that *any* interpretation of a work of art is largely subjective--what aspects of the piece we view as important, and the exact significance we attach to them, says as much about us as it does about the work itself.

So yes, by all means read Donington's book with a grain of salt--the same critical eye you would apply to any other reading, including Cooke's.


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

I would never think of Donnington as being the only approach. In fact, reading it again almost 40 (!) years later much of it makes me laugh. But my personality is such that a Jungian approach always resonates with my enjoyment/ understanding of a work. Don't know why. Maybe it's because I'm ENFP (for those who know their psych tests).


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

amfortas said:


> ...I would simply maintain that *any* interpretation of a work of art is largely subjective--what aspects of the piece we view as important, and the exact significance we attach to them, says as much about us as it does about the work itself.


I suppose that the most "reasonable/diplomatic" response I can make to this, without getting too bogged down in detail OR in semantics, is that some interpretations are more subjective than others-- especially so in the case of Wagner's art; as Wagner has left us with reams of writings concerning his intentions...


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The Ring is such an incredibly complex and multifaceted thing that it can be interpreted any number of ways. Some have interpreted it as an attack on capitalism ,for example.
But when you hear or see it, don't try to"interpret " it. Just let yourself sink into it and let the music flow around you ! It's a primal experience.


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## complainer (Aug 23, 2011)

I agree with the recommendation of Flying Dutchman to start.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I suppose that the most "reasonable/diplomatic" response I can make to this, without getting too bogged down in detail OR in semantics, is that some interpretations are more subjective than others-- especially so in the case of Wagner's art; as Wagner has left us with reams of writings concerning his intentions...


That's very true . . . but now this *does* get into the whole question of authorial intention I sidestepped earlier. Is the author/composer the only/final authority on how his or her work should be interpreted (either in criticism or in production)? The tendency in classical music has been to say "yes"--discerning and honoring the composer's intentions is the sole aim of any good conducter and orchestra, and the litmus test for how we evaluate that effort.

In literary studies, though, as I'm sure you know already, it has not been so simple, at least since the challenge to the "intentional fallacy" put forward by the (now not so) New Criticism of the 40's and 50s, and furthered by the rise of various schools of deconstructionist, psychoanalytic, Marxist, and feminist criticism, along with several strands of reception and reader-response theory.

It isn't hard to see how such a questioning of authorial intention might arise. First of all, authors can be notoriously unreliable about their intentions. They may not reveal them at all, or reveal them only in part, or offer contradictory clues, or change their mind over time, or intentionally mislead their readers.

And even if we can attribute a single, clear intention to a given author about their work, does that view necessarily restrict or exhaust the possible understandings of that text? An author necessarily employs language, which after all is not that author's sole possession, but a common currency among a larger community-every word already has a long history of multiple connotations. Once the author puts that multi-faceted text into circulation, he can't control the various interpretations it will occasion, any more than I can control the convoluted itinerary of the dollar bill I put into circulation yesterday.

In that sense, then, the author's interpretation of his or her own work is just one more reading, just as personal and subjective as anyone else's. Of course it has a particular interest, coming from the creator of that work. Whether it has or should have a particular authority over other readers, critics, and producers is another question, one that has long been hotly debated. I won't offer a view as to how that debate should apply to opera, but it is certainly a basic philosophical difference underlying, for example, the whole controversy over "regie" productions.

EDIT: And yes, I know this is getting off topic. Moderators should feel free to move it to another thread if they wish.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

I would start with the Met/Levine DVD of Das Rheingold. The epic, mythical proportions of the work, combined with the stunning music, will surely grab you. Get to know it some, and then move onto Die Walküre.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

In defense of the notion of first listening to _Tristan und Isolde._.. I must state that it was that very opera that initially sold me on Wagner... and opera as a whole. I had the good fortune to pick up a copy of this recording from the library...










I was immediately seduced by the almost erotic sounds and shortly thereafter picked up on Karajan's _Parsifal_ as well:










I never looked back.

ps... Just thought I'd second the Strauss _Salome_ recommendation. The two operas are Strauss Expressionist masterpieces. The Stratas DVD is unrivaled.

:tiphat:


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> In defense of the notion of first listening to _Tristan und Isolde._.. I must state that it was that very opera that initially sold me on Wagner... and opera as a whole. I had the good fortune to pick up a copy of this recording from the library...


I concur, Tristan und Isolde was my first Wagner love, and I think is a good starting point. I actually started with the Ring Cycle, but after Rheingold, which I didn't immediately take to, I could not pretend to resist T&I's beckoning any longer, and indeed for the next month it was all I listened to, and before and since nothing else in all of music have I found so deliciously, exorbitantly glorious. Amfortas had a good point that it's not your average love story, but the love duet for example is so obscenely gorgeous you won't care if you're not fully getting their exchange, you can always catch up on the Schopenhauer later.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

LOL . . . so it looks like we're working our way to the firm, decisive conclusion that *every* Wagner opera is a good starting point for the beginner! 

Which, in all seriousness, may not be such a bad position. These posts have made it clear that people have varied initial responses to each of the Wagner operas. The important thing is to jump in *somewhere.* If you don't make an immediate connection with that first one, there's always another waiting for you.


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## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

Thanks to all the contributors to this thread. I've wanted to give Wagner a chance for a while now and this thread pushed me over the edge. I just ordered the Barenboim "Tristan" and hope to find time to view it next weekend. I decided to take the full plunge instead of dipping my toe in the Wagnerian waters even though my history with opera hasn't been the same happy experience I've had with concert music. Several years ago I had to bail in the middle of the first act of "Ariadene Aux Naxos". The musical style was so excessive to my ears I literally felt ill and had to leave. Hopefully "Tristan" will mark a new phase in my relationship with opera. If I do have a similar experience to my earlier one with "Ariadne" I promise I'll leave out any gory details.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

MrTortoise said:


> Thanks to all the contributors to this thread. I've wanted to give Wagner a chance for a while now and this thread pushed me over the edge. I just ordered the Barenboim "Tristan" and hope to find time to view it next weekend. I decided to take the full plunge instead of dipping my toe in the Wagnerian waters even though my history with opera hasn't been the same happy experience I've had with concert music. Several years ago I had to bail in the middle of the first act of "Ariadene Aux Naxos". The musical style was so excessive to my ears I literally felt ill and had to leave. Hopefully "Tristan" will mark a new phase in my relationship with opera. If I do have a similar experience to my earlier one with "Ariadne" I promise I'll leave out any gory details.


LOL. I suppose Strauss might seem excessive to some listeners (though it's part of what I like about him). Of course, he derived a good part of that excess from Wagner, but took it even further himself. It will be interesting to hear your reactions to _Tristan_.

By the way, which Barenboim did you order? He has three _Tristan_s out on DVD and another on CD.


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## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

amfortas said:


> By the way, which Barenboim did you order? He has three _Tristan_s out on DVD and another on CD.


This one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012NO92O/ref=ox_ya_os_product

1995 with Jerusalem and Meier.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

MrTortoise said:


> This one:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012NO92O/ref=ox_ya_os_product
> 
> 1995 with Jerusalem and Meier.


Cool. That's my favorite DVD production, though it's definitely not your traditional staging and may be a little puzzling to someone unfamiliar with the opera. But by all means, give it a shot!


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## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

amfortas said:


> Cool. That's my favorite DVD production, though it's definitely not your traditional staging and may be a little puzzling to someone unfamiliar with the opera. But by all means, give it a shot!


I'll let you know what I think


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> What worked for me after 25 years of not liking Wagner: starting off with Lohengrin.
> 
> Then watching the traditional Met Ring on Met Player: Das Rheingold. That way I got a pretty straight telling of the story. (There are a lot of versions I prefer now, but this was a good intro.)
> 
> ...


I Can't agree more. Lohengrin is the opera I like the most. The Oberture gives you the essential...all the opera is amazing. You have many DVD versions, I'd suggest this one:










Placido Domingo's version is not bad either. It is an interesting opera to watch....and follow the story with the subtitles. Enjoy.
I don't like the Master singers...or whatever is its name, I consider it the only boring opera I have ever seen by Wagner. It's supposed to be a comedy....Wagner is not a comedy guy...

Sincerely,

Martin


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Master singers, boring? It's a very humane and captivating story (except for the racist rant at the end). Time flies while watching its four hours. It's not really a "funny haha" comedy but it is lovely. In my experience, newcomers to Wagner love it.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Master singers, boring? It's a very humane and captivating story (except for the racist rant at the end).


I would say that, *explicitly,* it's only a nationalist rant. But it's true, many see the speech as implicitly tainted by the racism of Wagner's prose writings.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Sach's final speech before the crowd in Die Meistersinger has absolutely nothing to do with Hitler's Naziism, and the opera was written nearly 30 years before Hitler was born.
Unfortunately, Hitler and the Nazis read their own insane antisemitic ideas into this final
address, but if you know the story and read the libretto in translation., you won't get the idea that this has anything to do with Nazi tyranny and barbarism.
Basically, what Sachs is saying, after Walther turns down the honor of being named a Mastersinger when he wins Eva's hand in the contest because of his resentment at the way he has been treated by the mastersingers in the first act, is that German music is vital for Germany to preserve its soul and heritage . If Germany were ever conquered by a foreign power, music would help the German people preserve themselves as a people.
There's absolutely nothing in this speech saying that Germany should start a world war ,conquer the world and commit genocide against the Jews and other undesirables.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

superhorn said:


> Sach's final speech before the crowd in Die Meistersinger has absolutely nothing to do with Hitler's Naziism, and the opera was written nearly 30 years before Hitler was born.
> Unfortunately, Hitler and the Nazis read their own insane antisemitic ideas into this final
> address, but if you know the story and read the libretto in translation., you won't get the idea that this has anything to do with Nazi tyranny and barbarism.
> Basically, what Sachs is saying, after Walther turns down the honor of being named a Mastersinger when he wins Eva's hand in the contest because of his resentment at the way he has been treated by the mastersingers in the first act, is that German music is vital for Germany to preserve its soul and heritage . If Germany were ever conquered by a foreign power, music would help the German people preserve themselves as a people.
> There's absolutely nothing in this speech saying that Germany should start a world war ,conquer the world and commit genocide against the Jews and other undesirables.


I know perfectly well that Wagner came 30 years before Hitler. I didn't imply the contrary, at all.
But Sach's rant does have a weird tone of "what is German is better than everything else, and other art forms are degenerate." Given the whole context and Wagner's personal opinions on this, interpreting it like this (just like many scholars do) is not at all a long stretch.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Is he French?*

...asked one of my French studients when I spoke about Wagner. I tried to smile, perhaps my smile wasn't that convincing...I swallowed...GULP, a big gulp and I said...No, Richard (I pornounced Rigard) Wagner was German...after that I changed the subject...This is not a music lesson, it is a French lesson...The guy after that learned the word TABLE (table)...and he asked, why is this word femenin...La Table (****, what a question, I didn' make the language, just trying to teach). I looked under the table as I was looking for something...(most probably the sex of the table) and I said convinced...definetly it is feminin (as I had see the sex). The guy laughed and I'm sure he will remember from know on that Table is femenin in French...

Martin...anecdotes

:tiphat:


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Master singers, boring? It's a very humane and captivating story (except for the racist rant at the end). Time flies while watching its four hours. It's not really a "funny haha" comedy but it is lovely. In my experience, newcomers to Wagner love it.


I'm not a fan of the Masters...His very last opera...may be he was too old??? I love many of them though...

Martin


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I'm not a fan of the Masters...His very last opera...may be he was too old??? I love many of them though...
> 
> Martin


Nah, he still had a couple more to go after _Die Meistersinger_.

Some people do say that he was past his prime when he wrote _Parsifal_. But don't you believe it!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> ...asked one of my French studients when I spoke about Wagner. I tried to smile, perhaps my smile wasn't that convincing...I swallowed...GULP, a big gulp and I said...No, Richard (I pornounced Rigard) Wagner was German...after that I changed the subject...This is not a music lesson, it is a French lesson...The guy after that learned the word TABLE (table)...and he asked, why is this word femenin...La Table (****, what a question, I didn' make the language, just trying to teach). I looked under the table as I was looking for something...(most probably the sex of the table) and I said convinced...definetly it is feminin (as I had see the sex). The guy laughed and I'm sure he will remember from know on that Table is femenin in French...
> 
> Martin...anecdotes
> 
> :tiphat:


I am surprised I haven't had any remarks about my little story...I'm still laughing though...

Martin


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I am surprised I haven't had any remarks about my little story...I'm still laughing though...
> 
> Martin


I'm still trying not to imagine what you would have seen down there if it had been a *masculine* table.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> But Sach's rant does have a weird tone of "what is German is better than everything else, and other art forms are degenerate." Given the whole context and Wagner's personal opinions on this, interpreting it like this (just like many scholars do) is not at all a long stretch.


I'm afraid that believing in the superiority of one's own country/culture to all others isn't an exclusively German characteristic. I've also found the tone of Sachs' paean to all things German uncomfortable -- and then thought of how many times I've heard one of "mah fella Ammurricans" spouting off about how great the U.S. is, and how much better anything American is to what exists in other countries. I've also read comments in some European publications by certain individuals there proclaiming the superiority of all things European. It's one thing to be proud of your country and culture, but another to believe you're better than everyone else. Unfortunately, this sort of chauvinism seems all too common all around the globe.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Well it's hard to deny the superiority of the Austro-German musical lineage:

Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Wagner, Strauss, Mahler.

So I do find Sach's rant easier to stomach than the average American political rally.


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