# A journey through classical music from medieval to contemporary



## Chilham

Join me on a years journey through classical music from medieval to contemporary.

You may be a beginner who, like me a year ago, wants to discover and listen to music that is highly recommended in each period. You might be a fan of one composer, or a lover of one period, and be interested to discover more of other composers or other music. You might be an experienced listener who is interested to share your knowledge with others in an accessible way. Whatever your motivation, I hope you’ll find this thread to be of value.

We’ll spend time:

*Q1*
Week 1a: Early Music & Ars Antiqua inc. Hildegard von Bingen, Pérotin & Léonin
Week 1b: Composers born 1300-1399 inc. Machaut, Dufay & Dunstaple
Week 2: Composers born 1400-1466 inc. Josquin & Ockeghem
Week 3: Composers born 1467-1533 inc. Palestrina, Tallis & Lassus
Week 4: Composers born 1534-1567 inc. Monteverdi, Dowland & Byrd
Week 5: Composers born 1568-1599 inc. Allegri, Schütz & Praetorius
Week 6: Composers born 1600-1633 inc. Carissimi, Lully & Strozzi
Week 7: Composers born 1634-1666 inc. Purcell, Corelli & Biber
Week 8: Composers born 1667-1681 inc. Vivaldi, Couperin & Telemann
Week 9: Composers born 1681-1685 inc. Handel & Rameau
Week 10: Composers born 1685-1695 inc. JS Bach pre-Leipzig
Week 11: Composers born 1696-1699 inc. JS Bach in Leipzig
Week 12: Composers from the Baroque to Classical transition inc. Tartini, Scarlatti & CPE Bach
Week 13: Composers known primarily for opera born 1600-1799 inc. Rossini, Gluck & Donizetti

*Q2*
Week 14: Composers born 1700-1724 plus Haydn works 1760-1783
Week 15: Composers born 1725-1732 plus Haydn works 1784-1803
Week 16: Composers born 1733-1739 plus Mozart works 1772-1779
Week 17: Composers born 1740-1749 plus Mozart works 1780-1785
Week 18: Composers born 1750-1759 plus Mozart works 1786-1791
Week 19: Composers born 1760-1769 plus Beethoven works 1795-1805
Week 20: Composers born 1770-1783 plus Beethoven works 1806-1811
Week 21: Composers born 1784-1794 plus Beethoven works 1812-1827
Week 22: Composers born 1795-1799 inc. Schubert
Week 23: Composers born 1800-1809 inc. Berlioz & Mendelssohn
Week 24: Composers born 1810 inc. Chopin & Schumann
Week 25: Composers born 1811-1819 inc. Liszt
Week 26: Composers known primarily for opera born 1800-1840 inc. Verdi, Wagner & Bellini

*Q3*
Week 27: Composers born 1820-1832 inc. Smetana, Bruckner & Franck
Week 28: Composers born 1833 inc. Brahms
Week 29: Composers born 1834-1839 inc. Bizet, Bruch, Saint-Saëns plus "The Big Five"
Week 30: Composers born 1840-1843 exc. Dvořák inc. Tchaikovsky & Grieg
Week 31: Composers born 1844-1849 plus Dvořák inc. Fauré
Week 32: Composers born 1850-1859 inc. Elgar & Janáček
Week 33: Composers born 1860-1862 inc. Debussy & Mahler
Week 34: Composers born 1864-1865 inc. Sibelius, Strauss R & Nielsen
Week 35: Composers born 1866-1872 inc. Satie & Scriabin
Week 36: Composers associated with the English Pastoral School inc. Vaughan Williams
Week 37: Composers born 1873-1875 inc. Rachmaninov & Ravel
Week 38: Composers born 1876-1879 plus those associated with the Second Viennese School inc. Berg & Schoenberg
Week 39: Composers known primarily for opera born 1841-1939 inc. Puccini & Massenet

*Q4*
Week 40: Composers born 1880-1884 exc. Stravinsky inc. Bartók, Kodály & Varèse
Week 41: Composers born 1885-1889 plus Stravinsky inc. Villa-Lobos
Week 42: Composers born 1890-1891 inc. Prokofiev & Martinů
Week 43: Composers born 1892-1897 inc. Hindemith plus all of "Les Six"
Week 44: Composers born 1898-1902 inc. Gershwin, Copland & Walton
Week 45: Composers born 1903-1906 inc. Shostakovich & Khachaturian
Week 46: Composers born 1907-1910 inc. Barber, Messiaen & Carter
Week 47: Composers born 1911-1916 inc. Britten & Cage
Week 48: Composers born 1917-1925 inc. Bernstein, Berio, Ligeti & Boulez
Week 49: Composers born 1926-1933 inc. Górecki, Penderecki & Stockhausen
Week 50: Composers born 1934-1939 inc. Reich, Pårt & Glass
Week 51: Composers born 1940-present inc. Adams, Saariaho & Tavener
Week 52: Composers of film, musical and games music inc. Bernstein, Williams, Morricone & Zimmer

The journey begins on 1st January 2022. Join me for the full journey or link in when it suits your listening. I hope there’ll be plenty of discussion, and only ask that whatever you share remains positive and helpful to those with perhaps less experience and knowledge than you.


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## Chilham

So how will this work?

Over the past eighteen months I’ve sought to establish the most recommended music to widen my understanding and appreciation of all eras of classical music. After a few false starts, I decided to analyse the works recommended by various sources. These include a wide range of media such as classical music radio stations in the US, UK and Australia, books by Swafford and others, academic resources, publications from the US and UK, and internet sources including Gramophone and of course, our very own Talk Classical listings. I tried where I could to avoid one person’s opinion, unless like Swafford, they have a sound reputation. I found that many ignored either early or contemporary music so went to a couple of additional resources for those. In total, I used nearly forty different sources that I judged to be of sufficient quality to justify their inclusion.

Each week I’ll share the most highly recommended listening for the period and we can explore and discuss the top pieces. At more than 100 pieces per week on avearge, we’ll not have the time to listen to everything and how deep into the list you want to delve is entirely up to you. I’ll provide the full listing for your future reference.

I wont be recommending which versions of each piece to listen to. I’ll leave it for others more knowledgeable and experienced than me to share their insights. Where appropriate I’ll mention the version that I have or prefer, but I recognise that tastes differ.


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## Chilham

A little about me before we begin.

I was a long-time beginner with classical music. I had listened to what you might call popular classics since I was in my late-twenties (I virtually wore out all of The Classic Experience cds for anyone that knows them). I also attended opera including Tosca at the ROH, Turandot in Bordeaux, The Magic Flute in Paris, Aida in Orange, and Lulu, Queen of Spades and Jenůfa at Glyndebourne. 

In May 2020, I was challenged by a friend on Facebook to post ten albums that influenced my life, one per day. In deciding which ten to choose I discovered that amongst the Bowie, Dylan, John Martyn, and Florence and the Machine albums, my most played album on iTunes was Mendelssohn’s Piano Trios by Perlman, Ma and Ax. I didn’t even remember buying it, and certainly hadn’t realised that I had listened to it twice as much as any other album I owned. This discovery made me determine to delve deeper into classical music and ultimately brought me to Talk Classical. I’m now, ‘hooked’, and am grateful for many doyens of this site for sharing so much information, guidance and insight in various threads that has supported my learning and listening over the past eighteen months.

I certainly don’t consider myself an expert. Far, far from it. These listings are unlikely to be error-free. All I can say is that I’ve lived and continue to live the, “n00b”, experience and know how challenging it can be for anyone wanting to learn more about classical. This thread is designed to help. You might consider it a ‘sister’ thread to pianozach’s execllent, “Beginner’s Guide to Classical Music”, giving some structure to the task and I’ll link to his excellent commentary on individual pieces as appropriate. I’ll also try to link to some of the resources we have on composers and pieces.


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## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Join me on a years journey through classical music from medieval to contemporary.
> 
> You may be a beginner who, like me a year ago, wants to discover and listen to music that is highly recommended in each period. You might be a fan of one composer, or a lover of one period, and be interested to discover more of other composers or other music. You might be an experienced listener who is interested to share your knowledge with others in an accessible way. Whatever your motivation, I hope you'll find this thread tio be of value.
> 
> We'll spend time:
> 
> •	January - Medieval & Renaissance music
> •	February - Baroque
> •	March - Baroque
> •	April - Classical
> •	May - Classical
> •	June - Classical
> •	July - Early-Romantic
> •	August - Mid and Late Romantic
> •	September - Late and Post-Romantic
> •	October - Modern
> •	November - Modern
> •	December - Contemporary
> 
> For composers who are known for both standard works and opera, we'll cover their recommended operas as we go. For composers who are almost exlusively known for opera only, we'll group them into weeks 13, 26, 39 and 52.
> 
> The journey begins on 1st January 2022. Join me for the full journey or link in when it suits your listening. I hope there'll be plenty of discussion, and only ask that whatever you share remains positive and helpful to those with perhaps less experience and knowledge than you.


This is completely ridiculous. January covers at least 500 years. April, May and June covers probably less than 100 years.


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## joen_cph

Very nice, and not ridiculous. Actually, I think your time schedules for the various periods are good. One can easily spend a month exploring diversities in Medieval & Renaissance music only, and get the big picture, for example - but even if including both the music and performance-wise, differences will be bigger later. The 20th-21st centuries have seen more stylistic diversity than anything else. Also, the earliest music is really tied up with, and dependent upon, the performers and their chosen performance style. You could then explore the various ages and performers in depth later too.


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## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> This is completely ridiculous. January covers at least 500 years. April, May and June covers probably less than 100 years.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I can only share the music that's recommended listening in each period and the spread works pretty much evenly. As I shared, I even added recommendations for early and contemporary music beyond the standard sources. It might work out for the best, but I know it won't delight everyone. Let's, "Suck it and see".


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## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way. I can only share the music that's recommended listening in each period and the spread works pretty much evenly. As I shared, I even added recommendations for early and contemporary music beyond the standard sources. It might work out for the best, but I know it won't delight everyone. Let's, "Suck it and see".


It just can't be right. January covers music from chant to popular and art songs to dramatic settings to multiple part organum to polyphonic motets and mass cycles. Classical style is basically Mozart and Haydn and a handful of also rans like Boccherini. You're going to get nothing significant out of January and be bored to tears in from 1 April to 30 June.


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## SanAntone

> We'll spend time:
> 
> • January - Medieval & Renaissance music
> • February - Baroque
> • March - Baroque
> • April - Classical
> • May - Classical
> • June - Classical
> • July - Early-Romantic
> • August - Mid and Late Romantic
> • September - Late and Post-Romantic
> • October - Modern
> • November - Modern
> • December - Contemporary


I could not spend one day listening to music from the Classical period, much less three months. I won't be joining you on this journey.


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## Phil loves classical

I am for you, Chilham.


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## Chilham

SanAntone said:


> I could not spend one day listening to music from the Classical period, much less three months. I won't be joining you on this journey.


No worries, although you were one of the people I was hoping might add some value for others towards the end of the year.


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## pianozach

joen_cph said:


> Very nice, and not ridiculous. Actually, I think your time schedules for the various periods are good. One can easily spend a month exploring diversities in Medieval & Renaissance music only, and get the big picture, for example - but even if including both the music and performance-wise, differences will be bigger later. The 20th-21st centuries have seen more stylistic diversity than anything else. Also, the earliest music is really tied up with, and dependent upon, the performers and their chosen performance style. You could then explore the various ages and performers in depth later too.


Agreed. As one also championing a thread covering music for beginners, I early on discovered that TIME is irrelevant in terms of music history (or just plain old history for that matter).

Medieval music is simply not as plentiful as music from later eras, especially Baroque, Classical, and Romantic. Most of us here that listen to Classical Music generally listen from these three eras, although there certainly exceptions (those who listen to lots of pre-Baroque or post-Romantic instead).

*Chilham*'s set up makes a great deal of sense, especially from a teaching perspective: two months for Baroque, and three each for Classical and Romantic eras.

And, as with my *Beginner's Guide* thread, I am discovering along the way.


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## SanAntone

Chilham said:


> No worries, although you were one of the people I was hoping might add some value for others towards the end of the year.


Well, I might join those months for Early music (January) and Contemporary music (December).


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## Mandryka

pianozach said:


> Medieval music is simply not as plentiful as music from later eras, especially Baroque, Classical, and Romantic.
> 
> .


Are you sure? I'm not.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

I highly recommend we take one month off of Classical and add one to Early music (split Medieval and Renaissance).


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## vtpoet

Mandryka said:


> This is completely ridiculous. January covers at least 500 years. April, May and June covers probably less than 100 years.


^ There's one in every crowd...


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## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> It just can't be right. January covers music from chant to popular and art songs to dramatic settings to multiple part organum to polyphonic motets and mass cycles. Classical style is basically Mozart and Haydn and a handful of also rans like Boccherini. You're going to get nothing significant out of January and be bored to tears in from 1 April to 30 June.


You don't appear to have much affection for the Classical era. Maybe you are right about "too much time", maybe not. Keep in mind that Chilham can change the schedule whenever he wants; he's in charge. Flexibility will be important in this journey.


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## Kreisler jr

If he wants to do full operas he needs more space for later eras. In the almost three hours of one Mozart opera one can cover samples from all kinds of chant and early (Notre Dame) organum, almost 700 years from ~500-1200


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## hammeredklavier

Mandryka said:


> It just can't be right. January covers music from chant to popular and art songs to dramatic settings to multiple part organum to polyphonic motets and mass cycles. Classical style is basically Mozart and Haydn and a handful of also rans like Boccherini. You're going to get nothing significant out of January and be bored to tears in from 1 April to 30 June.


• January - Medieval & Renaissance music
• February - Baroque & Classical
• March - Romantic
• April - Modern
• May - Modern
• June - Modern
• July - Modern
• August - Contemporary
• September - Contemporary
• October - Contemporary
• November - Contemporary
• December - Contemporary

This is what you want, isn't it?


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## Malx

Crikey - its a personal journey that we are being invited to join and comment on. Why should any of us have a right to determine which route Chilham chooses to tread.

I will follow with interest.

To quote the OP.
'The journey begins on 1st January 2022. Join me for the full journey or link in when it suits your listening. I hope there'll be plenty of discussion, and only ask that *whatever you share remains positive and helpful to those with perhaps less experience and knowledge than you*.'


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## vtpoet

Malx said:


> Crikey - its a personal journey that we are being invited to join and comment on. Why should any of us have a right to determine which route Chilham chooses to tread.


I know, right? The guy walks in, announces that the next round's on him, and the round after that, and the next thing you know you've got the local cranks griping that he's buying Stouts, and the next guy's kvetching that it should be Lagers and some elbow in the corner is grousing that it's not Ales: "TheRe SHOulD bE tHREe RouNdS oF aLEs!!!"


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## Kreisler jr

Kreisler jr said:


> If he wants to do full operas he needs more space for later eras. In the almost three hours of one Mozart opera one can cover samples from all kinds of chant and early (Notre Dame) organum, almost 700 years from ~500-1200


This is roughly how they do it on a 6 disc Medieval set I have from harmonia mundi (I think they boosted it to 8 discs later on). Two discs of monodic chant and one with early polyphony; admittedly they all run to 75-77 min each, so closer to 4 hours.


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> If he wants to do full operas he needs more space for later eras. In the almost three hours of one Mozart opera one can cover samples from all kinds of chant and early (Notre Dame) organum, almost 700 years from ~500-1200


Is this supposed to be some sort of argument? If it is, it's a very bad one. Look, I could say that if he wants to do, let's say, Carmina Burana (the medieval one, not Orff) he needs more space for early years. In the almost three hours of the recorded excerpts by Rene Clemencic one can cover samples from all kinds classical opera by Haydn, Mozart and no doubt others.


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> This is roughly how they do it on a 6 disc Medieval set I have from harmonia mundi (I think they boosted it to 8 discs later on). Two discs of monodic chant and one with early polyphony; admittedly they all run to 75-77 min each, so closer to 4 hours.


It's very likely that you need to give more time to very early music because it's so strange. You need to develop the appreciation knack, and that takes time. The sort of tune based music which Haydn or Liszt wrote, that's all familiar from TV ads and such like.


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## Mandryka

Malx said:


> Crikey - its a personal journey that we are being invited to join and comment on. Why should any of us have a right to determine which route Chilham chooses to tread.
> 
> I will follow with interest.
> 
> To quote the OP.
> 'The journey begins on 1st January 2022. Join me for the full journey or link in when it suits your listening. I hope there'll be plenty of discussion, and only ask that *whatever you share remains positive and helpful to those with perhaps less experience and knowledge than you*.'


Nobody is determining anything, I was simply pointing out that his plan is ridiculous.


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## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> Maybe you are right about "too much time", maybe not.


What do you think? Am I right?


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## Mandryka

vtpoet said:


> cranks


You're being rather nasty today.


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## vtpoet

Mandryka said:


> You're being rather nasty today.


Have you paid any attention to your own posts in this thread?


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## Mandryka

pianozach said:


> Most of us here that listen to Classical Music generally listen from these three eras, .


Possibly. But there's possibly no good reason for that, other than that they've been led to the period 1750 to 1950 by their peers, by radio stations and record companies who have a financial interest in narrowing the tastes of the market. The music of that period isn't intrinsically better, or more central to anything other than various business plans.

In my opinion a good introduction to music should allow someone to judge the whole range, to let people make an informed judgement about what music excites their imagination. It may be Mozart, it may be Machaut, it may be Maxwell Davies.

A bad introduction just reinforces common prejudices, like a rite of passage to allow admission into Beckmesser's Maestersinger closed society.


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## Sid James

I think that Chilham's lineup is good. In planning his program, he applied an extremely rigorous approach:

_"I tried where I could to avoid one person's opinion, unless like Swafford, they have a sound reputation. I found that many ignored either early or contemporary music so went to a couple of additional resources for those. In total, I used nearly forty different sources that I judged to be of sufficient quality to justify their inclusion."_

This is just meant to be an introduction, not a formal course on the history of music. Committing effort to a project like this is commendable, especially in volatile times such as the present.

Insofar as my experience of this forum goes, people are often more than willing to shoot down projects like this. I remember quite a few arguing against the TC "favourite and most highly recommended works" project when it started. It was initiated by trout and is currently being run by science. It has endured and proven to be a valuable resource for many members.


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## Guest

Chilham said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way. I can only share the music that's recommended listening in each period and the spread works pretty much evenly. As I shared, I even added recommendations for early and contemporary music beyond the standard sources. It might work out for the best, but I know it won't delight everyone. Let's, "Suck it and see".


Your avatar is absolutely dreadful. Why not get rid of it?


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## mmsbls

Chilham: Your proposed project looks wonderful. Obviously, you will decide what works and composers to discuss, and many of us will enjoy the ride including participating in discussion. Some of us will post often in the thread throughout the project, some will post now and then, and others will not participate. If we picked 10 different TC members to run this project, I suspect that we'd get 10 different schedules. Of course, that's fine. TC is about discussing classical music, and this project certainly fits that focus.

Many of the posts in this thread are chiding and/or negative. The OP proposed a thread to explore classical music. If you wish to participate, that's great. If you think the proposal is flawed, find a positive way to make a suggestion or simply ignore the thread.


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## science

I was pleased just to see Medieval and Renaissance music included at all.


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## new but obsessed

Chilham said:


> A little about me before we begin.
> 
> I was a long-time beginner with classical music. I had listened to what you might call popular classics since I was in my late-twenties (I virtually wore out all of The Classic Experience cds for anyone that knows them). I also attended opera including Tosca at the ROH, Turandot in Bordeaux, The Magic Flute in Paris, Aida in Orange, and Lulu, Queen of Spades and Jenůfa at Glyndebourne.
> 
> In May 2020, I was challenged by a friend on Facebook to post ten albums that influenced my life, one per day. In deciding which ten to choose I discovered that amongst the Bowie, Dylan, John Martyn, and Florence and the Machine albums, my most played album on iTunes was Mendelssohn's Piano Trios by Perlman, Ma and Axe. I didn't even remember buying it, and certainly hadn't realised that I had listened to it twice as much as any other album I owned. This discovery made me determine to delve deeper into classical music and ultimately brought me to Talk Classical. I'm now, 'hooked', and am grateful for many doyens of this site for sharing so much information, guidance and insight in various threads that has supported my learning and listening over the past eighteen months.
> 
> I certainly don't consider myself an expert. Far, far from it. These listings are unlikely to be error-free. All I can say is that I've lived and continue to live the, "n00b", experience and know how challenging it can be for anyone wanting to learn more about classical. This thread is designed to help. You might consider it a 'sister' thread to pianozach's execllent, "Beginner's Guide to Classical Music", giving some structure to the task and I'll link to his excellent commentary on individual pieces as appropriate. I'll also try to link to some of the resources we have on composers and pieces.


Thank you for this story!

I can relate very closely. I absolutely continue to live the "n00b" experience. Outside of cinema, which I studied formally, my relationship with the other arts is a lot less informed. And I glibly and happily will say I like a painting or a piece of music because it's pretty. Happy to declare how shallowly I understand all of this.

Maybe one day I'll take a piano lesson and learn some music theory. (I am beginning to watch a series of recorded lectures from Yale's youtube channel on basic music theory, which I am excited about).

On my end, aside from loving the Classical music I'd hear in high school concerts or the stuff that was put into movies (like all of the amazing stuff in 2001 A Space Odyssey and of course in Amadeus), I really had no clue about any of this stuff. I didn't even know that Amadeus was significantly about opera! And I had seen the film a countless number of times in high school and college.

In my late-20s another neophyte and I stumbled into a performance of Satyagraha because we liked his film stuff and Glassworks reminded me of the music in the Civilization games. We also had been exposed to and seriously appreciate modern experimental music (Cage, Riley, Reich, etc). And we had no idea that Glass was really an opera guy! During the intermission some helpful folks in the audience gladly explained to us that this was being sung in Sanskrit, and some super basic opera stuff (people were so nice! And a surprising number of others in their 20's and 30s too!). And man have I been hooked ever since.

I soon watched The Magic Flute and returned to Amadeus, and that movie was kicked up another notch in my estimation. So much opera so deeply interwoven into its plot!

Anyway, count me in for your exploration of this music. Outside of the 16 operas I've seen, plus smatterings of the usual bigwigs like Mozart & Beethoven, I have very limited understanding of classical music. Even if it is the blind leading the blind 

EDIT: I'm glad pianozach mentioned his own Beginners Guide. I'm getting through that now. I'm not quite his target audience, but so far it's a fun curation!


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## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> ... Anyway, count me in for your exploration of this music. Outside of the 16 operas I've seen, plus smatterings of the usual bigwigs like Mozart & Beethoven, I have very limited understanding of classical music. Even if it is the blind leading the blind
> 
> EDIT: I'm glad pianozach mentioned his own Beginners Guide. I'm getting through that now. I'm not quite his target audience, but so far it's a fun curation!


Great to have you along for the ride. It looks like there may be a little turbulence along the way, but we'll smooth it all out as best we can.


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## hammeredklavier

You know what this thread reminds me of:







Christabel said:


> Your avatar is absolutely dreadful.


H-- How absolutely... dreadfully...


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## Coach G

Developing a curriculum for any type of chronological study of history (in this case music history) is very difficult because you always need to shortchange something. If you're trying to squeeze a study of American history, for example, into a single semester or even if you split it between two semesters (US History ! & II) even a good instructor will have a hard time getting much past World War II even if an ambitious syllabus indicates otherwise. So now we have a whole generation of young Americans who don't know which side won the Cold War. 

Back in the 1980s I took a very interesting course called "Literature in the Bible". The professor was quite good, especially at navigating the treacherous waters of the students, some of whom were sincere Christians and others who were agnostic, as they were often at odds with one another over the interpretations; but because the professor went chronologically from Genesis to Revelations, we never even had time for the New Testament.

So I think Chilham's curriculum is reasonable.


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## pianozach

I remember studying American History in school, and how disjointed it was. There was some awkward historical moments that were completely ignored, but overall I generally break it all down into several logical (to me) sections.

Pre-Columbus
Colonization
The Road to Independence
War with Britain and establishing a new government
Westward expansion
Civil War
Reconstruction
Gilded Age
The Great War
The Roaring Twenties
The Great Depression and The New Deal
WWII
Postwar America
Decades of Change
Toward the 21st Century
The 21st Century: The Loss of Innocence (WTC attacks, Boston Marathon bombing, and gun massacres), the Decline of Prosperity, Class Wars, Systemic Racism, Conspiracy Culture, Bully Culture

Of course, there is some very dark subtext to each of these eras, including slavery, suppression of women, imperialism, military/police worship and other even darker threads that involve politics, capitalism, and religion.

Did I sum it up OK?


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## Chilham

Hardly the grand entrance I'd envisioned. Today has got away from me. Let me just put this here and revisit later.

In week one we're exploring the early medieval and ars antiqua period. As several have said, it's a big time span to cover off in one week. My research revealed only 23 recommended pieces for the time period. Further sources added another 49 pieces so we have a total of 72 for the week.

There are two pieces that lead the way with nine recommendations each. To choose a piece of the week, I've selected the one of those two that sits highest in Science's "Talk Classical Community's Favorite and Most Highly Recommend Works". That piece is:

*Pérotin: Viderunt omnes*

You'll find some great discussion on the piece and some opinion on the best versions here. Viderunt Omnes is #88 in pianozach's listing.

I'll be relistening to this version a little later:










Pérotin: Viderunt omnes

Tonus Peregrinus

I'll reveal more recommendations as we go through the week.


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## SanAntone

My favorite work from the Medieval period is the _Messe de Nostre Dame_ by *Guillaume de Machaut*.

My comments about this work can be found in an article I posted on my blog, *Machaut's Messe de Nostre Dame : an overview*, which despite having been written in 2015 is still fairly current. However, for some reason I did not include what is my favorite recording of it, this one:

*Taverner Consort & Taverner Choir - Andrew Parrot*t, dir.
Angel S 38 044 [LP]; EMI (also VSM & HMV) Reflexe 1C 067 (also ASD) 1 43576-1 (or -4) [LP or Cassette]
Rec.: 1983










At the bottom of the article there is a link to a complete discography, at least complete at the time I posted the article.


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## Chilham

Ars Nova to come next week. I should have been more specific in my description.


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## mmsbls

Chilham said:


> Ars Nova to come next week. I should have been more specific in my description.


Could you perhaps give us a bit more on what to expect each day or week? You mentioned there would be about 100 works per week. You listed 1 work today. How often will you list works and how many works will you list each time? Or will it vary?

Do you hope to have others list and discuss works they enjoy from the period in discussion, or would you prefer people respond to the works you list after you list them?


----------



## Chilham

mmsbls said:


> Could you perhaps give us a bit more on what to expect each day or week? You mentioned there would be about 100 works per week. You listed 1 work today. How often will you list works and how many works will you list each time? Or will it vary?
> 
> Do you hope to have others list and discuss works they enjoy from the period in discussion, or would you prefer people respond to the works you list after you list them?


A couple of good questions that I'd planned to address this morning and didn't get to it. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

The works divide themselves into seven categories:

•	Level 1 - 22 or more recommendations (1 work per week on average)
•	Level 2 - 16-21 recommendations (2 works)
•	Level 3 - 11-15 recommendations (4 works)
•	Level 4 - 7-10 recommendations (7 works)
•	Level 5 - 4-6 recommendations (11 works)
•	Level 6 - 2-3 recommendations (20 works)
•	Level 7 - 1 recommendation (60 works)

In a week with a perfect distribution of works, I plan to post one level per day. The challenge comes when there are a relatively low number of works and/or no highly recommended works in a week, such as the first few weeks. I'll change it up if it's not working well by February.

I'm happy for people to discuss whatever they find interesting in the period. I guess my only priority is to try to retain a primary focus on the listener. This thread is about exposing the beginner to a range of works across each period.

I'm also open to constructive suggestions.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Chilham said:


> Hardly the grand entrance I'd envisioned. Today has got away from me. Let me just put this here and revisit later.
> 
> In week one we're exploring the early medieval and ars antiqua period. As several have said, it's a big time span to cover off in one week. My research revealed only 23 recommended pieces for the time period. Further sources added another 49 pieces so we have a total of 72 for the week.
> 
> There are two pieces that lead the way with nine recommendations each. To choose a piece of the week, I've selected the one of those two that sits highest in Science's "Talk Classical Community's Favorite and Most Highly Recommend Works". That piece is:
> 
> *Pérotin: Viderunt omnes*
> 
> You'll find some great discussion on the piece and some opinion on the best versions here. Viderunt Omnes is #88 in pianozach's listing.
> 
> I'll be relistening to this version a little later:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pérotin: Viderunt omnes
> 
> Tonus Peregrinus
> 
> I'll reveal more recommendations as we go through the week.


Viderunt Omnes is chock full of tritones, must be trying to summon the devil or something

(The Medieval tritone ban is a recent myth - they used it all the time, as a dissonance it created challenges but was not associated with Satan)


----------



## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> Viderunt Omnes is chock full of tritones, must be trying to summon the devil or something
> 
> (The Medieval tritone ban is a recent myth - they used it all the time, as a dissonance it created challenges but was not associated with Satan)


I must say, this is just a personal comment, not a reflection on the music, but I much prefer the Leonin to the Perotin. Though I can see that the Perotin is an amazing thing. I just like sparse music at the moment.

Does anyone know if there's a complete Perotin anywhere? It would be fun to have all his known music collected together so I could get a better feel for what he was about.

There is a complete Leonin, from Red Byrd, and it is one of my most cherished recordings.


----------



## new but obsessed

This is one of the first times I'm actually engaged in active listening with this type of music. Two tracks in, and it's lovely! Certainly conjures up memories from childhood Sundays in church or the background music in certain movies (like The Great Beauty). Or, more profanely, the crazy tunes in Dark Souls 3.



Mandryka said:


> I must say, this is just a personal comment, not a reflection on the music, but I much prefer the Leonin to the Perotin. Though I can see that the Perotin is an amazing thing. I just like sparse music at the moment.


Please help me in my ignorance. Which of these tracks on the suggested Naxos collection are Leonin and which are Perotin. The composer info on Apple Music and the Naxos site aren't very helpful.

Viderunt Omnes is Perotin while Clausulae is Leonin? What about Beata viscera (track 1) and the final three tracks, Scolica Enchriadis, Sederunt principes, Vetus abit littera?

Appreciate it!

EDIT: I think I just figured it out. A different view setting of the album shows the composers for each track. I do really like the spareness of Leonin! But the opening "Beata viscera" by Perotin is also a banger. Can't wait to get to the rest of the Perotin later in the album.

EDIT 2: This is a silly observation, but this is how my mind works. Leonin's Viderant omnes (II) on this album somehow really reminds me of a number of vocals from Animal Collective and Panda Bear tracks. Not all of their stuff, maybe more of Panda Bear's stuff. Just throwing that out there. Loving this so far!

EDIT 3: Like Mandryka, I too prefer the Leonin to the Perotin versions of the Viderunt omnes. Maybe because it came up first in the album and my expectations were set there. But I do prefer the spareness of it, esp. with the II passage with the higher register of (female?) vocals. Maybe the fuller sound of Perotin would be the winner in a live performance in a resonant cathedral.


----------



## Chilham

For today, the piece to narrowly miss out on work of the week:

*Hildegard von Bingen: Symphonia Harmoniae Celestium Revelatorium*

And our final "Level 4" work (7-10 recommendations) this week:

*Hildegard von Bingen: Ordo Virtutum*

You'll find some interesting discussion on Hildegard's work here.

For me, I'll be listening to these later today:










Hildegard von Bingen: Symphonia Harmoniae Celestium Revelatorium

Jeremy Summerly, Oxford Camerata










Hildegard von Bingen: Ordo Virtutum

Vox Animae

If you are able to download it, there's what I found to be an excellent BBC Radio 3 Composer of the Week podcast called, "The Birth of Polyphony" that covers much of what I'm sharing this week.


----------



## science

I'll re-post this from here with some small changes:

In 2019, the world rightly regarded the fire at Notre Dame de Paris as a tragedy. Most people's first associations with that cathedral will be from Victor Hugo's novel, and in fact the romantic tradition of Gothic novels affects how almost anyone in our time thinks or feels about any Gothic cathedral or anything medieval. Victor Hugo wrote a very good story, and I heartily recommend it! I also love the 1923 film based on it.

However, Hugo and the romantics completely misunderstood or misrepresented the nature of Gothic architecture. They represent Gothic as essentially dark, mysterious, haunted by horrific gargoyles. That was not at all how medieval people felt about it.

Let's deal with the gargoyles first, because our thoughts on that are the least relevant to Pérotin. All over the world, wherever you visit traditional temples or palaces or even just villages, you'll see on their exterior boundaries art that is meant to represent something frightening: lions, dragons, warriors, demons, gargoyles, masks of evil spirits, and so on. Why would people do that?

To a world that no longer fears darkness, that regards sickness as a physical phenomenon, a mere technological challenge, and that takes a 70-year lifespan almost for granted, it's just cute art.

But in a world that feared the powers of darkness and knew that death could strike anyone at any moment - because it did - the scarier those guardians are, the safer the people feel. Those are not meant primarily as evil spirits to frighten the residents of the temples, palaces, or villages - they were already scared, and they wanted scary guardian allies to frighten away evil spirits. Or even to frighten away evil people....

Anyway, let's try to view the Gothic tradition not from the point of view of a post-Enlightenment society suffering from the ennui of excessive rationality, needing a little superstition for titillation, but from the point of view of people who'd only known Romanesque architecture.

Deserving the reputation that Gothic architecture has, Romanesque churches were relatively short structures, often actually designed to be defensive. You could take shelter in them when someone raided your village. With tiny windows, they really were dark and cold.

In the 12th century, however, the cathedrals began to grow higher, and windows grew much larger. This became Gothic architecture. For people at the time, these were not at all dark, scary places! They were filled with amazing light, delightfully colored by the stained glass windows. Their vaults and arches pointed proudly to heaven. Built to represent and celebrate prosperity, security, and learning, this could be called the first architecture of enlightenment in Europe since the fall of Rome.

As the interior space expanded, the acoustics changed. The traditional monophonic Gregorian chant sounded and felt different in these high, brightly lit spaces. And soon, a new tradition of music was invented to take advantage of the acoustic properties of the Gothic churches: the Notre Dame School, named for its association with Notre Dame de Paris.

This was still before artists were thought of as idiosyncratic geniuses with privileged access to the muses; they were craftsmen, so their names were usually not recorded. The names of Léonin and Pérotin, the only two members of the Notre Dame school of composers whose names we know, have come down to us almost by accident, recorded by travelers who marveled at the music they made.

What the Notre Dame school invented was the organum - the first step of western music's long exploration of harmony. Pérotin's Viderunt Omnes is one of the two earliest examples of four-part harmony.

We know almost nothing of Pérotin's life, but there is evidence to suggest that Viderunt Omnes was written for Christmas 1198, and it might have been sung in Notre Dame de Paris, though it was still not complete.

Earlier I asked us to imagine how a Gothic cathedral would feel to someone in the twelfth century. Now I hope you'll join me in trying to imagine how Viderunt Omnes would sound -- not to someone modern, in a world saturated with musical noise blasting from speakers at every gas pump, over every aisle of every artificially lit shopping center; a world of radios and earphones and ubiquitous advertising jingles, a world of rock and roll and hip hop and industrial techno and K-pop and orchestras with hundreds of instruments --

No, throw all that away and imagine that you lived in a world where you and your family yourselves made most of the music you heard - lullabies, folk songs, usually without instruments. A world where, if you were lucky, you might be able to hear a skilled troubadour now and then. A world where Gregorian chant in your village's dark old Romanesque cathedral would have been the most beautiful music you'd ever heard in your life -- so much that you looked forward to church.

So for some reason you set off down the "road" - what we today would call a path - from your village, perhaps you had the very great fortune of attending a university somewhere, and road led on to road, and you somehow found yourself in Paris for Christmas in 1198. What would Viderunt Omnes sound like to you then?

You might not have liked it! After all, we have conservative ears! But it would have impressed you mightily, as it did (for example) John of Salisbury, who taught at the University of Paris during these years and often heard the new organum tradition:



> The very service of the Church is defiled, in that before the face of the Lord, in the very sanctuary of sanctuaries, they, showing off as it were, strive with the effeminate dalliance of wanton tones and musical phrasing to astound, enervate, and dwarf simple souls. When one hears the excessively caressing melodies of voices beginning, chiming in, carrying the air, dying away, rising again, and dominating, he may well believe that it is the song of the sirens and not the sound of men's voices; he may marvel at the flexibility of tone which neither the nightingale, the parrot, or any bird with greater range than these can rival. Such indeed is the ease of running up or down the scale, such the dividing or doubling of the notes and the repetitions of the phrases and their incorporation one by one; the high and very high notes are so tempered with low or somewhat low that one's very ears lose the ability to discriminate, and the mind, soothed by such sweetness, no longer has power to pass judgment upon what it hears. When this type of music is carried to the extreme it is more likely to stir lascivious sensations in the loins than devotion in the heart. But if it be kept within reasonable limits it frees the mind from care, banishes worry about things temporal, and by imparting joy and peace and by inspiring a deep love for God draws souls to association with the angels.


So sometimes even the conservatives loved it.

Viderunt Omnes celebrates salvation - another concept that means almost nothing today, when even the most ferocious believers shrink from threatening their neighbors with hellfire, which seems to have truly frightened people in the past. People willingly endured the cruelest forms of torture rather than, as they saw it, risk their souls.

But on Christmas, they could celebrate. Here comes Jesus to save us!

Here are the words of Viderunt Omnes, translated by someone at wikipedia:

_All the ends of the earth have seen
the salvation of our God.
Rejoice in the Lord, all lands.
The Lord has made known his salvation;
in the sight of the nations
he has revealed his righteousness._

Pérotin's organum illuminated this text to fill the amazingly bright space of a brand-spanking-new Gothic cathedral.

Because they loved it so much, they took their time with it. The first syllable, "vi" goes on for so many beats that you'll probably lose track if you try to count them while listening. When it was over, they'd go back to the folk music of their ordinary life, but while they had these well-trained singers in this amazing space, they wanted to enjoy it.

And sure, some old conservatives like John of Salisbury could huff about how inappropriate it was for such sweet, lascivious music to be sung in God's house. But aesthetic conservatives never win - not for long, anyway. And eventually the music that so delights and offends becomes, to later generations, old-fashioned, then strange, and finally almost intolerable.

I had the privilege of visiting Notre Dame de Paris when it was whole, and to tell the truth, it didn't transport me into some sublime ecstasy. It was just pretty nice. It's no Notre Dame de Chartres, for example. And even Chartres is no Versailles, no Angkor Wat, no Empire State Building. To me, it's not even the most impressive Gothic Cathedral in Paris - Sainte-Chappelle rivals it, at least.

But it should hold an unrivaled place in the heart of every classical music lover because of its role in the birth of our tradition, and maybe an appreciation for that will outweigh the boredom or disgust we feel walking around in what we take for its cold darkness.


----------



## Kreisler jr

I listened to Viderunt omnes by Leonin and Perotin as well as the latters Sederunt principes from the "Music of the Gothic Era" on Archiv (Munrow cond. Early Music Consort of London, rec. 1975) and while I can appreciate the "shock value" of additional voices, I think the unaccompanied "base chant" sounds more beautiful, and I am not a huge fan of chant. I should probably listen to the chant disc from my Harmonia mundi anthology to get some notion of the difference of the chant types and maybe also listen to the version of Viderunt omnes (Peres) included there.


----------



## mmsbls

The comparisons of the Viderunt omnes by Leonin and Perotin are interesting. I generally prefer fuller polyphony, but I actually agree that the Leonin is more enjoyable than the Perotin. The Leonin also has a much more active melodic line which I usually enjoy less.


----------



## joen_cph

Chilham said:


> (...)
> There are two pieces that lead the way with nine recommendations each. To choose a piece of the week, I've selected the one of those two that sits highest in Science's "Talk Classical Community's Favorite and Most Highly Recommend Works". That piece is:
> 
> *Pérotin: Viderunt omnes*
> 
> You'll find some great discussion on the piece and some opinion on the best versions here. Viderunt Omnes is #88 in pianozach's listing.
> 
> I'll be relistening to this version a little later:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pérotin: Viderunt omnes
> 
> Tonus Peregrinus
> 
> (...)


It is not music that appeals much to me, but interesting for historical reasons. I just have the Deller Consort/Collegium Aureum recording, not mentioned in the links, which is coupled with *Machaut*'s _Messe de Nostre Dame_, also mentioned already in the thread. I'd assume that the style in this recording is unusually committed to showing contrasts - there's a rather strong-voiced, staccato-like singing all the time, with strong 'hocket'-effects, and in this case it includes prominent, accompanying wind instruments from those days. At least one reviewer thought that the overall sound picture was too muddled because of this. The result is complex and also certainly very far from say the typical recordings of later, choral renaissance religious music, and there's thus often a certain, dance-like atmosphere to the CD overall, to modern ears.

https://www.discogs.com/master/1171...ndon-Mitglieder-Des-Collegium-Aureum-Graduale


----------



## Mandryka

joen_cph said:


> It is not music that appeals much to me, but interesting for historical reasons. I just have the Deller Consort/Collegium Aureum recording, which is coupled with *Machaut*'s _Messe de Nostre Dame_, also mentioned already in the thread. I'd assume that the style in this recording is unusually committed to showing contrasts - there's a rather strong-voiced, staccato-like singing all the time, with strong 'hocket'-effects, and it includes prominent, accompanying wind instruments from those days. At least one reviewer thought that the overall sound picture was too muddled because of this. The result is complex and also certainly very far from say the typical recordings of later, choral renaissance religious music, and there's thus often a certain, earthly atmosphere to the CD overall, to modern ears, but less so in this graduale piece.
> 
> https://www.discogs.com/master/1171...ndon-Mitglieder-Des-Collegium-Aureum-Graduale
> 
> View attachment 162609


Deller takes the Perotin Viderunt extremely fast, and that makes it exciting. It also makes the hockets hiccup. Try Dominique Vellard for a very different approach, which personally I much prefer


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## joen_cph

In Perotin, I listened to the whole of Vellard/Ensemble Gilles Binchois, and yes, at 17:09 with no instruments, versus Deller's 10:48, there's a big difference between the two versions, illustrating how the state of the sources of early music often also create an extremely wide playground for ideas from the performers. 

I think both versions have qualities; Vellard obviously makes the musical ongoings much, much clearer, but the differences in tempi also create a wholly different mood in the piece, and make some of the contrasts more subtle, or even absent, depending on one's taste.


----------



## Mandryka

joen_cph said:


> In Perotin, I listened to the whole of Vellard/Ensemble Gilles Binchois, and yes, at 17:09 versus Deller's 10:48 with no instruments, there's a big difference between the two versions, illustrating how the state of the sources of early music often also create an extremely wide playground for ideas from the performers.
> 
> I think both versions have qualities; Vellard obviously makes the musical ongoings much, much clearer, but the differences in tempi also create a wholly different mood in the piece, and make some of the contrasts more subtle, or even absent, depending on one's taste.


Well to be fair I could find equally wide divergences about tempo in 18th, 19th and 20th century music quite easily. Deller set a tradition about the right pulse for the piece I guess, because most people who've recorded it seem to be quite close to what he did. Vellard isn't chosing the tactus at random, or because of some sort of creative whim, he argues for it on the basis of some historical documentation. Deller, Hilliard and the rest were letting their imaginations run wild.


----------



## Luchesi

Mandryka said:


> What do you think? Am I right?


Music before Bach hadn't become effective enough (the tools hadn't been discovered yet).

Music after 1950 hasn't yet stood the test of time.


----------



## new but obsessed

Many thanks to science for that wonderful post.

I've done a small amount of homework on Hildegard (including finding some podcasts about her). What I understand is that she is monophonic and predates Leonin and Pelotin who were both polyphonic. Correct? And all of this is different from Gregorian Chant, which comes over a century prior to Hildegard. 

I guess I need to look up Gregorian Chant, too. 

Some questions I have in case anyone has any insights.

1) How widespread and uniform are the Gregorian Chant, Monophony, and Polyphony traditions/practices throughout Christendom (is there a better term? Is it "Western Europe" or different group of regions?)? Or is much of this just happening in isolation? I heard the Pope had called on Hildegard and appreciated her music, so I'm guessing a decent chunk of Europe was pretty mobile. 

2) I'm curious to know if anyone has any insight or context into the interrelatedness of this Catholic liturgical music with the sounds/music of other religions, at least those west India. Is this growing from the same or similar traditions as the other church/temple/mosque songs from Judaism and Islam, the latter of which would have a significant foothold in Spain, around the mediterranean, and elsewhere throughout the medieval period? 


Lastly: I think I align with mmsbls in his preference for the polyphony of Leonin over the monophony of Hildegard's harmony of the celestial. The evolution of style was a worthy one.


----------



## hammeredklavier

I suspect the tenor part would be boring to sing for a large part of the piece, with long stretches of what seems like a pedal


----------



## Mandryka

new but obsessed said:


> Lastly: I think I align with mmsbls in his preference for the polyphony of Leonin over the monophony of Hildegard's harmony of the celestial. The evolution of style was a worthy one.


My own feeling is that it's hard to make extended periods of purely monophonic music work today unless the audience understands the words and the singers are good at delivering the words. Hildegard became popular partly because she's a strong woman - so there's a feminist element. But also because the wide ambitus in the melismas can give the impression of thrilling virtuosity, like in bel canto coloratura.

But note that not all monophony is pure - one singer. There is antiphonic music, music sung with a drone (a bourdon), and (what I call, maybe wrongly) heterophonic performance - two singers singing together with slightly different interpretations, not completely identical lines - at the very least each singer has a different timbre and that affects things. They need not blend seamlessly. All these things can be poetic, and there are examples on Hildegard interpretation on record.


----------



## Mandryka

hammeredklavier said:


> I suspect the tenor part would be boring to sing for a large part of the piece, with long stretches of what seems like a pedal


Yes

Snsnsnsnsnsnsnsn


----------



## Mandryka

new but obsessed said:


> I've done a small amount of homework on Hildegard (including finding some podcasts about her). What I understand is that she is monophonic . . . Correct?


 There's no reason to think that Ordo virtutum would have been performed like monophonic song as far as I know - rather than with instruments improvising. Here for example, with a drone and some bells






here a bit more elaborately


----------



## Chilham

Let's talk Trouvères, Troubadours, and Minnesängers. The recommendations for these types of music are:

Level 5 (4-6 recommendations)

*Adam de la Halle: La Jeu de Robin et de Marion*

Level 6 (2-3 recommendations)

*Bernart de Ventadorn: Can Vei La Lauzeta Mover*
*Walther von der Vogelweide: Palästinlied*

Level 7 (1 recommendation)

*Marcabru: L'Autrier Jost'una Serbissa
Marcabru: Pax! In Nomine Domini
Raimon de Miraval: Ainsi Cum es Genser Pascors
Giraut de Bornelh: Reis Glorios
Walther von der Vogelweide: Unter der Linden
Audefroi le Bastart: Bele Y Doine
Neidhart von Reuental: Meienzit
Adam de la Halle: Bone Amourette
Adam de la Halle: Dieus Soit en Cheste Maison
Adam de la Halle: Fines Amouretes
Ernoul Caupain: Ler main pensis chevauchai*

I was astonished to read that there are more than 25 different genres of Troubadour music. For those with a deeper knowledge than me, tell us what you know and who and what are we missing from this list?

My planned listening for today:










Adam de la Halle: La Jeu de Robin et de Marion

Claude Bernatchez, Ensemble Anonymous










Bernart de Ventadorn: Can Vei La Lauzeta Mover

Duo Enßle-Lamprecht










Walther von der Vogelweide: Palästinlied, Unter der Linden

I Ciarlatani, Augsburg Early Music Ensemble


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> There's no reason to think that Ordo virtutum would have been performed like monophonic song as far as I know - rather than with instruments improvising. Here for example, with a drone and some bells
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> here a bit more elaborately


We don't know definitively if Hildegard and her nuns had access to instruments or used them in their music-making. There are some scant general references to instruments and harmonic simultaneities recorded in Hildegard's extant letters and treatises. In one of Hildegard's medical writings, she references the monochord, an ancient one stringed instrument that provided the foundation of medieval music theory. Other medieval instruments that existed during Hildegard's life include the vielle, harp, portative organ, drums, and drone instruments, mentioned by Mandryka, such as the symphonia or bagpipes. Hildegard refers to instruments in this passage from her writings:

"And so the holy prophets, inspired by the spirits which they had received were called for this purpose: not only to compose songs and canticles (by which the hearts of the listeners could be inflamed) but also to construct various kinds of musical instruments to enhance these songs of praise with melodic strains. Thereby, both through the form and quality of the instruments, as well as through the meaning of the words which accompany them, those who hear might be taught, as we said above, about inward things, since they have been admonished and aroused by outward things[.] They accompanied their singing with instruments played with the flexing of the fingers, recalling in this way Adam, who was formed by God's finger, which is the holy spirit."

Hildegard often speaks in metaphor, and this passage in particular is part of an elaborate metaphor about the importance of music in the lives of Hildegard and her nuns. The passage doesn't imply the use of instruments in connection to her music or for use in a liturgical context; however, it does indicate that she had an understanding of musical instruments that went beyond Biblical scholarship, and that she envisioned them as part of the divine music of the universe as she experienced in her visions.


----------



## SanAntone

Chilham said:


> Join me on a years journey through classical music from medieval to contemporary.
> 
> You may be a beginner who, like me a year ago, wants to discover and listen to music that is highly recommended in each period. You might be a fan of one composer, or a lover of one period, and be interested to discover more of other composers or other music. You might be an experienced listener who is interested to share your knowledge with others in an accessible way. Whatever your motivation, I hope you'll find this thread tio be of value.
> 
> We'll spend time:
> 
> •	January - Medieval & Renaissance music
> •	February - Baroque
> •	March - Baroque
> •	April - Classical
> •	May - Classical
> •	June - Classical
> •	July - Early-Romantic
> •	August - Mid and Late Romantic
> •	September - Late and Post-Romantic
> •	October - Modern
> •	November - Modern
> •	December - Contemporary
> 
> For composers who are known for both standard works and opera, we'll cover their recommended operas as we go. For composers who are almost exlusively known for opera only, we'll group them into weeks 13, 26, 39 and 52.
> 
> The journey begins on 1st January 2022. Join me for the full journey or link in when it suits your listening. I hope there'll be plenty of discussion, and only ask that whatever you share remains positive and helpful to those with perhaps less experience and knowledge than you.


I do not intend any offense, but I am truly confused. May I ask, "what is the purpose of this thread?"

When I read your OP I was under the impression that we could offer our ideas about composers and recordings from the period under discussion. But what I've noticed since the beginning of the actual discussion, you seem to be working from some list of composers. And free recommendations appear to be unwelcome, since when I offered the Machaut Messe, you posted something about he Ars Nova to be discussed in the next week. A comment which confused me, since there had been no weekly list of topics.

Also, concerning the troubadours, I was about to post about my favorite collection fo recordings, which contain most, if not all, of the existing music available. But stopped when I saw your post talking about levels, and specific composers.

Where did these levels come from? And why are they important? These posts have cased me to wonder "what is the purpose for this thread?" IOW, do you have some end result in mind you are trying to achieve?


----------



## SanAntone

Here's a link to lists of troubadours with discographies:

*Wikipedia*

*Medieval.org: Troubadours*

My favorite recordings of Troubadours are by *Gérard Zuchetto*


----------



## Chilham

SanAntone said:


> I do not intend any offense, but I am truly confused. May I ask, "what is the purpose of this thread?"
> 
> When I read your OP I was under the impression that we could offer our ideas about composers and recordings from the period under discussion. But what I've noticed since the beginning of the actual discussion, you seem to be working from some list of composers. And free recommendations appear to be unwelcome, since when I offered the Machaut Messe, you posted something about he Ars Nova to be discussed in the next week. A comment which confused me, since there had been no weekly list of topics.
> 
> Also, concerning the troubadours, I was about to post about my favorite collection fo recordings, which contain most, if not all, of the existing music available. But stopped when I saw your post talking about levels, and specific composers.
> 
> Where did these levels come from? And why are they important? These posts have cased me to wonder "what is the purpose for this thread?" IOW, do you have some end result in mind you are trying to achieve?


You're right. The thread is suffering as result of my lack of time on Saturday and the consequent rushed start to proceedings. My apologies. Let me clarify.

The prime purpose of this thread is to guide beginners to the best classical music to listen to. The thread is about the listener, no so much about the music - there are plenty of threads and resources for that and we can link to them. The thread may have a number of side-benefits. For example, there's a thread started today titled, "Where to start with Sibelius' symphonies?" As we cover each time period, this thread may help to answer that type of question.

You input is most welcome. I had neglected to clarify specifically that this week we're looking at early medieval and Ars Antiqua. Ars Nova comes next week. I smiled at your otherwise very helpful recommendation since I'd originally planned to cover both in one week, so it would have been the 'Work of the Week', but separated them at Mandryka 'suggestion' that we should spend a little more time in Medieval and Renaissance. I'm sorry if you thought I felt your suggestion was unwelcome. It was not.

So, where does the list come from and what are the, "Levels"? In researching for myself last year, I identified nearly forty sources of recommendations for classical listening. They include classical radio stations in the US, UK and Australia, publications like the Guardian and WSJ, academic resources, books and internet content including our own Talk Classical listings. I made a judgement on the quality and provenance of the recommendations, excluding those that I felt were not adequate.

My judgement is that the more reccommendations any individual work received, the more likely it is that it should be recommended to a beginner. In collating the data, I happened to group the works into seven categories or levels:

Level 1 - works that received 22 recommendations or more
Level 2 - works that received between 16 and 21 recommendations
Level 3 - 11-15 recommendations
Level 4 - 7-10 recommendations
Level 5 - 4-6 recommendations
Level 6 - 2-3 recommendations
Level 7 - 1 recommendation

There's no specific logic behind the seven levels. They just happened.

Each week I plan to share the list. In an ideal world where there are works at each level, that will be one post per day sharing each level as we progress through the week. After that we can do what we want with it. Let it just sit here. Discuss the works. Answer any questions someone asks. The thread will flourish or wither based on the interaction. I hope it flourishes.

Next week we'll cover Ars Nova and composers born before 1400. After that there'll be a week of Josquin and his contemporaries, then Byrd/Tallis/Lassus, then Monteverdi ....


----------



## SanAntone

Chilham said:


> You're right. The thread is suffering as result of my lack of time on Saturday and the consequent rushed start to proceedings. My apologies. Let me clarify.
> 
> The prime purpose of this thread is to guide beginners to the best classical music to listen to. The thread is about the listener, no so much about the music - there are plenty of threads and resources for that and we can link to them. The thread may have a number of side-benefits. For example, there's a thread started today titled, "Where to start with Sibelius' symphonies?" As we cover each time period, this thread may help to answer that type of question.
> 
> You input is most welcome. I had neglected to clarify specifically that this week we're looking at early medieval and Ars Antiqua. Ars Nova comes next week. I smiled at your otherwise very helpful recommendation since I'd originally planned to cover both in one week, so it would have been the 'Work of the Week', but separated them at Mandryka 'suggestion' that we should spend a little more time in Medieval and Renaissance. I'm sorry if you thought I felt your suggestion was unwelcome. It was not.
> 
> So, where does the list come from and what are the, "Levels"? In researching for myself last year, I identified nearly forty sources of recommendations for classical listening. They include classical radio stations in the US, UK and Australia, publications like the Guardian and WSJ, academic resources, books and internet content including our own Talk Classical listings. I made a judgement on the quality and provenance of the recommendations, excluding those that I felt were not adequate.
> 
> My judgement is that the more reccommendations any individual work received, the more likely it is that it should be recommended to a beginner. In collating the data, I happened to group the works into seven categories or levels:
> 
> Level 1 - works that received 22 recommendations or more
> Level 2 - works that received between 16 and 21 recommendations
> Level 3 - 11-15 recommendations
> Level 4 - 7-10 recommendations
> Level 5 - 4-6 recommendations
> Level 6 - 2-3 recommendations
> Level 7 - 1 recommendation
> 
> There's no specific logic behind the seven levels. They just happened.
> 
> Each week I plan to share the list. In an ideal world were there a works at each level, that will be one post per day sharing each level as we progress through the week. After that we can do what we want with it. Let it just sit here. Discuss the works. Answer any questions someone asks. The thread will flourish or wither based on the interaction. I hope it flourishes.
> 
> Next week we'll cover Ars Nova and composers born before 1400. After that there'll be a week of Josquin and his contemporaries, then Byrd/Tallis/Lassus, then Monteverdi ....


Thanks for clarifying, I seem to remember you did post those levels, but it confused me since I didn't know what they meant.

Anyway, good luck with the journey, it seems like a worthwhile effort, although a bit too structured for my normal approach. I will chime in when I have something that might fit the weekly topic/period/level.


----------



## new but obsessed

May I add that I am thankful for the recommendation for specific recordings, and with the album art images posted, too! I don't necessarily enjoy the hunting and pecking around for the "right one" (though with the better known works of symphonies and operas, I do enjoy listening to different versions). Gratefully, all the records this week have all be available on Apple Music, which makes this a really accessible exercise. 

Now, to finally get a hold on the troubadour music tradition that fantasy fiction, Verdi, Wagner, et al. were all referencing!


----------



## new but obsessed

Chilham said:


> My planned listening for today:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adam de la Halle: La Jeu de Robin et de Marion
> 
> Claude Bernatchez, Ensemble Anonymous
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bernart de Ventadorn: Can Vei La Lauzeta Mover
> 
> Duo Enßle-Lamprecht
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Walther von der Vogelweide: Palästinlied, Unter der Linden
> 
> I Ciarlatani, Augsburg Early Music Ensemble


I had a hard time getting into the Adam de la Halle. I understand it's a stage play or some sort of theatrical performance piece, and I always struggle digesting those purely via recording. I don't listen to broadway tunes for that very reason.

The Ventadorn piece and the rest of that album was very interesting. I had no idea recorders were serious instruments or had any purpose beyond lesson for schoolchildren. Great stuff and excellent trivial research fodder!

My fave of this session is easily Under der Linden. Found the translation on the wikipedia page. Fun to see some early examples of secular music about love and getting laid! I can easily imagine a tavern scene with people drunkenly singing along to this. And that line about the little bird somehow reminded me of Ovid's Amores and his own weird and delightful sense of humor.

Edit: I was listening to a silly podcast episode that somewhat-drunkenly discussed the life and times of Hildegard of Bingen. Seems she was writing about female anatomy and reproduction too with interesting theories about how all that worked. How she would have known anything about that as a presumably chaste nun is fun for speculation (and colors my recent viewing of the wild and wicked movie, Bernadetta). I wonder if she ever set her theories of reproduction and carnal love to music...


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

new but obsessed said:


> Seems [Hildegard of Bingen] was writing about female anatomy and reproduction too with interesting theories about how all that worked. How she would have known anything about that as a presumably chaste nun is fun for speculation.


Seems, sir? Nay, she did. Hildegard's analysis of human anatomy and sexual reproduction followed Aristotelian lines as qualified by Porphyry and Galen. Hildegard's writings also show familiarity with several Medieval treatises on those subjects, including Constantine of Africa's _On the Nature of Man_, and Hugh St. Viktor's _On the Members and Parts of Man_. In her _Scivias_, Hildegard reports that the result of mystical illumination was the increase in understanding of the meaning of texts with which she was already familiar. It should not be forgotten that Hildegard worked as a nurse-physician in the infirmary and hospice connected to her monastery. As a result of her acute powers of observation and organization of information, she wrote a scientific treatise classifying the curative powers of herbs. She also wrote a text in which she analyzed the biological composition of men and women and the effects of these factors on personality and human interaction. In her description of paradise, Hildegard states that a woman reproduced by herself, without the help of a man. Only after the Fall, alas, was a man required to get the job done.


----------



## pianozach

As long as we're starting at the very beginning, howsabout some *Etienne de Liege* and this little ditty he allegedly composed?

*"Invitatorium: Deum Verum"*


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> I had a hard time getting into the Adam de la Halle. I understand it's a stage play or some sort of theatrical performance piece, and I always struggle digesting those purely via recording....


The first recording of Le Jeux that I listened to was overly theatrical. I don't know why so many slap their thighs and ham it up as if it's a comic opera.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

RICK RIEKERT said:


> . In her description of paradise, Hildegard states that a woman reproduced by herself, without the help of a man. Only after the Fall, alas, was a man required to get the job done.


Honestly, this would explain a lot.


----------



## Chilham

Four more pieces for today, highlighted in red below. Firstly some more Léonin/Pérotin. The Guido d'Arezzo story is cool. The Play of Daniel is one of my favourite early pieces. I thought it might be helpful to share the updated list list as we proceed.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
No works

*Level 4*
Pérotin: Viderunt Omnes
Hildegard von Bingen: Symphonia Harmoniae Celestium Revelatorium
Hildegard von Bingen: Ordo Virtutum

*Level 5*
Adam de la Halle: La Jeu de Robin et de Marion
*Léonin: Magnus Liber Organi
Pérotin: Sederunt Principes
Guido d'Arezzo: Ut Quent Laxis / Micrologus - Do-Re-Mi*

*Level 6*
*Anon. (Students at Beauvais Cathedral): Play of Daniel (Egerton Manuscript)*
Bernart de Ventadorn: Can Vei La Lauzeta Mover
Walther von der Vogelweide: Palästinalied

*Level 7*
Marcabru: L'Autrier Jost'una Serbissa
Marcabru: Pax! In Nomine Domini
Raimon de Miraval: Ainsi Cum es Genser Pascors
Giraut de Bornelh: Reis Glorios
Walther von der Vogelweide: Unter der Linden
Audefroi le Bastart: Bele Y Doine
Neidhart von Reuental: Meienzit
Adam de la Halle: Bone Amourette
Adam de la Halle: Dieus Soit en Cheste Maison
Adam de la Halle: Fines Amouretes
Ernoul Caupain: Ler main pensis chevauchai

My listening for today:










Léonin: Magnus Liber Organi

Paul Hilliard, Hilliard Ensemble










Pérotin: Sederunt Principes

Tonus Peregrinus










Anon.: Play of Daniel

William Lyons, Dufay Collective


----------



## Luchesi

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Honestly, this would explain a lot.


Yes, that's what happened 'way back in evolution.

Posters should check in, at the least.


----------



## Chilham

Six more pieces for today, highlighted in *red* below.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
No works

*Level 4*
Pérotin: Viderunt Omnes
Hildegard von Bingen: Symphonia Harmoniae Celestium Revelatorium
Hildegard von Bingen: Ordo Virtutum

*Level 5*
Adam de la Halle: La Jeu de Robin et de Marion
Léonin: Magnus Liber Organi
Pérotin: Sederunt Principes
Guido d'Arezzo: Ut Quent Laxis / Micrologus - Do-Re-Mi

*Level 6*
Anon. (Students at Beauvais Cathedral): Play of Daniel (Egerton Manuscript)
Bernart de Ventadorn: Can Vei La Lauzeta Mover
*John of Fornsete: Sumer is Icumen In
Anon.: Winchester Troper
Pérotin: Beata Viscera*
Walther von der Vogelweide: Palästinalied

*Level 7*
*Anon.: Llibre Vermell de Montserrat 
Yared: The Book of Zimare
Kassia of Byzantium: Ek Rizis Agathis*
Marcabru: L'Autrier Jost'una Serbissa
Marcabru: Pax! In Nomine Domini
Raimon de Miraval: Ainsi Cum es Genser Pascors
Giraut de Bornelh: Reis Glorios
Walther von der Vogelweide: Unter der Linden
Audefroi le Bastart: Bele Y Doine
Neidhart von Reuental: Meienzit
Adam de la Halle: Bone Amourette
Adam de la Halle: Dieus Soit en Cheste Maison
Adam de la Halle: Fines Amouretes
Ernoul Caupain: Ler main pensis chevauchai

My listening for today:










Kassia of Byzantium: Ek Rizis Agathis (From a Good Root)

VocaMe










John of Fornsete: Sumer is Icumen In

Huelgas Ensemble










Anon.: Winchester Troper

Mary Berry, Schola Gregoriana Of Cambridge










Anon.: Llibre Vermell de Montserrat

Jordi Savall, Hespèrion XXI, La Capella Reial De Catalunya


----------



## Chilham

The full listing for this week of early and Ars Antiqua works.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
No works

*Level 4*
Pérotin: Viderunt Omnes
Hildegard von Bingen: Symphonia Harmoniae Celestium Revelatorium
Hildegard von Bingen: Ordo Virtutum

*Level 5*
Adam de la Halle: La Jeu de Robin et de Marion
Léonin: Magnus Liber Organi
Pérotin: Sederunt Principes
Guido d'Arezzo: Ut Quent Laxis / Micrologus - Do-Re-Mi

*Level 6*
Anon. (Students at Beauvais Cathedral): Play of Daniel (Egerton Manuscript)
Bernart de Ventadorn: Can Vei La Lauzeta Mover
John of Fornsete: Sumer is Icumen In
Anon.: Winchester Troper
Pérotin: Beata Viscera
Walther von der Vogelweide: Palästinalied

*Level 7*
Anon.: Llibre Vermell de Montserrat
Beatriz, Comtessa de Dia: A Chantar M'er de So qu'eu No Volria 
Anon.: Alle Psallite Cum Luya (Montpellier Codex)
Anon.: On parole, A Paris, Frese nouvele (Montpellier Codex)
Anon.: J'ai les maus d'amours - Que ferai (Montpellier Codex)
Anon.: Cunctipotens Genitor (Codex Calixtinus)
Yared: The Book of Zimare
Kassia of Byzantium: Ek Rizis Agathis
Tuotilo: An Easter Drama
Anon.: Quem Quaeritus in Sepulchro
Wipo of Burgundy: Victimae paschali laudes
Abelard, Peter: O Quanta Qualia
Abelard, Peter: Planchus Jacob Super Filios Suos
Adam of Saint-Victor: Lauda Sion Salvatorem / Lauda Crusis Attolamus
Anon.: Planctus Cigni
Marcabru: L'Autrier Jost'una Serbissa
Marcabru: Pax! In Nomine Domini
Raimon de Miraval: Ainsi Cum es Genser Pascors
Giraut de Bornelh: Reis Glorios
Walther von der Vogelweide: Unter der Linden
Audefroi le Bastart: Bele Y Doine
Neidhart von Reuental: Meienzit
Thibault I of Navarre: De Bone Amour Vient Séance Bonté
Anon.: Se J'ai Ame
Anon.: Thomas Gemma Cantuariae / Thomas Caesus in Doveria
Lorenzo de Firenze (Masini): A Poste Messe
Lorenzo de Firenze (Masini): Non So Qual I mi Voglia
Adam de la Halle: Bone Amourette
Adam de la Halle: Dieus Soit en Cheste Maison
Adam de la Halle: Fines Amouretes
Anon.: Tempus Adest Floridum "Good King Wenceslas"
Anon.: Se Je Chant
Anon.: Nordic Hymn Nobilis, Humilis "Saint Magnus Hymn"
Petrus de Cruce: Aucun ont Trouv'
Anon.: Jesu Cristes milde moder
Anon.: Angelus Domini (Chartres Fragment)
Anon.: Christ ist Erstanden
Anon.: Dicant Nunc Judei (Chartres Fragment)
Anon.: Easter Chants: Allleluia and Victimae Pascheli Laudes
Anon.: Ecce Sacerdos Magnus
Anon.: Edi beo thu hevene quene
Anon.: Epiphaniam domino canamus - Balaam inquit
Anon.: Hoquetus In Seculum
Anon.: L'Autre Jour (Bamburg Codex)
Anon.: Kyriale Mass IV: Cunctipotens Genitor Deus
Anon.: Kyriale Mass IX: Cum Jubilo
Anon.: Musicalis sciencia / Sciencie laudabili
Anon.: Te Joseph Celebrent
Anon.: Flos Regalis (Worcester Fragments)
Ernoul Caupain: Ler main pensis chevauchai

Ars Nova and the Burgundian School starting tomorrow. I wonder what could be 'Work of the Week'?


----------



## Chilham

Week Two so soon! This week we'll delve into the Ars Nova, other composers born 1300-1399, and the Burgundian School.

Our 'Work of the Week' is no surprise:

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
*Guillaume de Machaut:* *Messe de Notre Dame*

My preferred version is the same as SanAntone:










Machaut: Messe de Notre Dame

Andrew Parrott, Taverner Choir, Taverner Consort


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Week Two so soon! This week we'll delve into the Ars Nova, other composers born 1300-1399, and the Burgundian School.
> 
> Our 'Work of the Week' is no surprise:
> 
> *Level 1*
> No works
> 
> *Level 2*
> No works
> 
> *Level 3*
> *Guillaume de Machaut:* *Messe de Notre Dame*
> 
> My preferred version is the same as SanAntone:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the mass is very good, it's not my favourite element of Machaut's music by a long chalk. That would have to be the motets or the songs


----------



## Mandryka

In Ars Nova, many of the best works are anonymous. This CD is a good place to start.

https://www.discogs.com/master/3967...istopher-Page-The-Marriage-Of-Heaven-And-Hell


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Guillaume de Machaut: Messe de Notre Dame

*Level 4*
*Dufay, Guillaume*: *Missa l'Homme Armé*
*Guillaume de Machaut*: *Douce Dame Jolie*

My listening this morning:










Dufay: Missa l'Homme Armé

Guiseppe Maletto, Cantica Symphonia










Machaut: Douce Dame Jolie

Fortune's Wheel


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> My preferred version is the same as SanAntone:


This is also my preferred version. But IIRC you wasn't that keen about it not so long time ago.


----------



## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> My preferred version is the same as SanAntone:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the mass is very good, *it's not my favourite element of Machaut's music* by a long chalk. That would have to be the motets or the songs


I can understand that. While I think the _Messe_ is a masterpiece, I too also enjoy the long *narrative poems/songs*, like _Le Remedie de Fortune_ - and this recording of it:










Marc Mauillon, Angelique Mauillon, Vivabiancaluna Biffi, Pierre Hamon


----------



## cheregi

Fyi to OP and anyone else trying to get a handle on changes in western music through history - I became very interested in this topic and scoured the internet (i.e. published academic research available on the internet) for information - 

All of these recordings NEED to be understood as 'creative reinterpretation' at best, regardless of what the liner notes may imply... there are HUGE largely-unanswerable questions about fundamental aspects of performance - singers' tone production (this means, the difference between opera voice, European folk voice, 'middle eastern singing' voice, Chinese opera voice, etc. - these norms are subjective and change dramatically over time), ornamentation (adding all kinds of extra notes, sliding between notes, etc.), use of instruments, tempo, rhythmic emphasis, etc...

Even today's performance style for Mozart is drastically different from the performance style that you hear on really old recordings from like 1910-20, so imagine hundreds more years of changing tastes (and without the impact of widely-available recordings keeping everybody more on the same page!).

Western notation started as a memory aid to help preserve a more complex oral tradition, nobody would've been expected to learn how to sing a piece just from looking at the notes.

Also, if you know the famous history of polyphony evolving out of monophony at Notre-Dame - it's actually becoming clear now that there was already an established tradition of improvised polyphony, which the Notre-Dame composers drew on. That's just one example of a little detail that suddenly upends the established image of the past on which many of these recordings are built.

Suffice to say it is MORE THAN LIKELY that the music of Perotinus or Leoninus etc. sounded, in its day, almost nothing like you hear on record, and, as a related point, it is an illusion that western music 'started simple and became more complex over time' - what IS true is that NOTATION became more complex and more important over time, and complexity was redistributed into forms visible in the notation (i.e. structural/'architectural' complexity gradually became more prominent)...

I would be happy to provide recommendations of the relatively few records which actually DO try to explore genuine variety of approaches to performance.

EDIT: to avoid getting into 'well, what is complexity, how do you measure it' - what I really mean is, it is an illusion that western music NECESSARILY 'started simple and became more complex over time' just because of increases in notational complexity - notation is not evidence enough. Also want to acknowledge that obviously 'almost nothing like you hear on record' is totally subjective, I don't want anyone saying 'well they got the notes right' (even there we have questions - look up 'musica ficta' - even into the 1500s it was standard for performers to add sharps and flats to the score DURING performance!)


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> This is also my preferred version. But IIRC you wasn't that keen about it not so long time ago.


No I don't like it at all, I think the speed they choose for Machaut's music doesn't make it sound so good. There's been a mistake with quotations, it looks like a [/quote] has gone missing from my post!


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> *Level 1*
> No works
> 
> *Level 2*
> No works
> 
> *Level 3*
> Guillaume de Machaut: Messe de Notre Dame
> 
> *Level 4*
> *Dufay, Guillaume*: *Missa l'Homme Armé*
> *Guillaume de Machaut*: *Douce Dame Jolie*
> 
> My listening this morning:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dufay: Missa l'Homme Armé
> 
> Guiseppe Maletto, Cantica Symphonia


I think that L'homme arme is really quite successful.


----------



## SanAntone

cheregi said:


> Fyi to OP and anyone else trying to get a handle on changes in western music through history - I became very interested in this topic and scoured the internet (i.e. published academic research available on the internet) for information -
> 
> All of these recordings NEED to be understood as 'creative reinterpretation' at best, regardless of what the liner notes may imply... there are HUGE largely-unanswerable questions about fundamental aspects of performance - singers' tone production (this means, the difference between opera voice, European folk voice, 'middle eastern singing' voice, Chinese opera voice, etc. - these norms are subjective and change dramatically over time), ornamentation (adding all kinds of extra notes, sliding between notes, etc.), use of instruments, tempo, rhythmic emphasis, etc...
> 
> Even today's performance style for Mozart is drastically different from the performance style that you hear on really old recordings from like 1910-20, so imagine hundreds more years of changing tastes (and without the impact of widely-available recordings keeping everybody more on the same page!).
> 
> Western notation started as a memory aid to help preserve a more complex oral tradition, nobody would've been expected to learn how to sing a piece just from looking at the notes.
> 
> Also, if you know the famous history of polyphony evolving out of monophony at Notre-Dame - it's actually becoming clear now that there was already an established tradition of improvised polyphony, which the Notre-Dame composers drew on. That's just one example of a little detail that suddenly upends the established image of the past on which many of these recordings are built.
> 
> Suffice to say it is MORE THAN LIKELY that the music of Perotinus or Leoninus etc. sounded, in its day, almost nothing like you hear on record, and, as a related point, it is an illusion that western music 'started simple and became more complex over time' - what IS true is that NOTATION became more complex and more important over time, and complexity was redistributed into forms visible in the notation (i.e. structural/'architectural' complexity gradually became more prominent)...
> 
> I would be happy to provide recommendations of the relatively few records which actually DO try to explore genuine variety of approaches to performance.
> 
> EDIT: to avoid getting into 'well, what is complexity, how do you measure it' - what I really mean is, it is an illusion that western music NECESSARILY 'started simple and became more complex over time' just because of increases in notational complexity - notation is not evidence enough. Also want to acknowledge that obviously 'almost nothing like you hear on record' is totally subjective, I don't want anyone saying 'well they got the notes right' (even there we have questions - look up 'musica ficta' - even into the 1500s it was standard for performers to add sharps and flats to the score DURING performance!)


I appreciate what you y in this post, and the subject has been covered in depth by Richard Taruskin. But, the Early Music movement is well established and has many exponents all of whom do not share the same philosophy concerning authenticity.

For myself I think the idea of authenticity is a red herring.

I am happy for the plethora of recordings of music from earlier epochs and have my favored groups and recordings, and that is enough. In my own mind I have found the kind of "authentic" performances I think are supported by good scholarship and sound stylistic footing, and go with those.


----------



## Mandryka

cheregi said:


> it's actually becoming clear now that there was already an established tradition of improvised polyphony, which the Notre-Dame composers drew on.


Can you say a bit more about that please.


----------



## cheregi

SanAntone said:


> I appreciate what you y in this post, and the subject has been covered in depth by Richard Taruskin. But, the Early Music movement is well established and has many exponents all of whom do not share the same philosophy concerning authenticity.
> 
> For myself I think the idea of authenticity is a red herring.
> 
> I am happy for the plethora of recordings of music from earlier epochs and have my favored groups and recordings, and that is enough. In my own mind I have found the kind of "authentic" performances I think are supported by good scholarship and sound stylistic footing, and go with those.


I believe I am largely in accord with you and Taruskin on this point! I continue to listen to a fair amount of 'early music' recordings. My concern, though, is that lots of people new to classical music recordings DO go in with the explicit attitude that they can take a tour through the sounds of history by listening to early-music CDs - and the publicity and liner notes around those recordings still do quite a bit to encourage that idea. And then having that idea, I think, and listening to the recordings that are out there, tends to support a rather teleological view of history...



Mandryka said:


> Can you say a bit more about that please.


I'm thinking of 'chant sur la livre' - described briefly for example in the middle of this interview - "the chant melody was sung in long tones, possibly with a serpent [the instrument] doubling, then one or two singers would improvise above it. ... Chant sur la livre was performed fairly commonly, and not only in Paris." there's a link there to a jstor article about it. It survived in parts of France until the 18th century but is believed to have been a relic of a formerly commonplace practice. I think Schmelzer talks about it somewhere too.


----------



## Mandryka

Chant sur le livre is something that Peres explored in his Auxerre CD -- well worth hearing if you don't know it. This is from the booklet essay he wrote



> The polyphonic pieces recorded here are realizations of "chanting by the book" carried out according to the faux-bourdon techniques in use at the period. To this very day we still find an example of it in the polyphonic vocal musk of Corsica. In the course of our studies of chanting by the book, the analysis of the style of the linking of chords in the Corsican tradition permitted us to emphasize an "oral style" in the manner offorming the harmonies around a main chant. The present stage of our reflection on the question may be defined as a reading of the documents of the period in the light of the Corsican polyphonic tradition.


His recording of chants from Benevento is also not without interest in this respect, lots of drone.


----------



## cheregi

Mandryka said:


> Chant sur le livre is something that Peres explored in his Auxerre CD -- well worth hearing if you don't know it. This is from the booklet essay he wrote


There seems to be no end to the obscure recordings released by that man. I hadn't seen this one mentioned anywhere but it's an interesting listen. I'd love to hear more takes on chant sur la livre. Graindelavoix seems like a great candidate for example.


----------



## science

I'm loving January. I'm gonna miss it when it's gone.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Guillaume de Machaut: Messe de Notre Dame

*Level 4*
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa l'Homme Armé
Guillaume de Machaut: Douce Dame Jolie

*Level 5*
*Dunstaple, John: Quam Pulchra Es* 
*Dufay, Guillaume*: *Missa Se La Face Ay Pale* 
*Dufay, Guillaume*: *Nuper rosarum flores 
Landini, Francesco: Ballades inc. Ecco la primavera, Non Ara Ma' Pieta, Sì dolce non sonò chol lir' Orfeo *
*Dufay, Guillaume*: *Secular Songs inc. Adieu ces bons vins de Lannoys, Se La Face Ay Pale, Craindre Vous Vueil, Hélas Mon Deuil, a ce Coup- Sui Je Mort, Ce Jour de l'An, Je Languis en Piteux Martire
Guillaume de Machaut: Ma fin est mon commencement	*

My listening today:










Dufay: Secular Songs (Selected)

The Medieval Ensemble Of London, Peter Davies, Timothy Davies


----------



## Mandryka

cheregi said:


> There seems to be no end to the obscure recordings released by that man. I hadn't seen this one mentioned anywhere but it's an interesting listen. I'd love to hear more takes on chant sur la livre. Graindelavoix seems like a great candidate for example.


The Auxerre CD is very beautiful, and beautifully engineered too. But in the context of the discussion, Peres's work doesn't support the thesis that there was a significant tradition of polyphony in the 13th century apart from at Notre Dame. The Auxerre music is much later than that -- c17 and c18.


----------



## cheregi

Mandryka said:


> The Auxerre CD is very beautiful, and beautifully engineered too. But in the context of the discussion, Peres's work doesn't support the thesis that there was a significant tradition of polyphony in the 13th century apart from at Notre Dame. The Auxerre music is much later than that -- c17 and c18.


Does Peres say that the tradition _developed_ in the 17th century? I thought he was saying that new melodies were composed then but that the practice of 'chant sur le livre' was older. I know somebody else made a more explicit argument in that vein, maybe it was the jstor article linked earlier.

Here's from wiki: "Although the exact origins of polyphony in the Western church traditions are unknown, the treatises Musica enchiriadis and Scolica enchiriadis, both dating from c. 900, are usually considered the oldest extant written examples of polyphony. These treatises provided examples of two-voice note-against-note embellishments of chants using parallel octaves, fifths, and fourths. Rather than being fixed works, they indicated ways of improvising polyphony during performance."

And recalling again that we are talking about fragmentary limited written records of an oral tradition - recalling for example that we know so little that we think it plausible to insert a drone underneath a monophonically-notated chant - who is to say that in actual practice, church singers stuck to only two independent voices?

The other thing is of course polyphony is extraordinarily common in non-western-influenced traditional cultures around the world, especially sub-saharan Africa, Oceania, southern China... often one finds the greatest 'polyphonism'/harmonic-thinking among the 'least-developed'/'most-primitive' people of the area (in densely forested areas specifically... because the acoustics of the environment significantly impact development of musical thinking...) so it's anyway a myth that the invention of polyphony in western europe was some kind of revolutionary breakthrough.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Skipping straight to Dunstable past the Ars Subtilior?

_Ars subtilior (Latin for 'subtler art') is a musical style characterized by rhythmic and notational complexity, centered on Paris, Avignon in southern France, and also in northern Spain at the end of the fourteenth century.[1] The style also is found in the French Cypriot repertory. Often the term is used in contrast with ars nova, which applies to the musical style of the preceding period from about 1310 to about 1370; though some scholars prefer to consider ars subtilior a subcategory of the earlier style. Primary sources for ars subtilior are the Chantilly Codex, the Modena Codex (Mod A M 5.24), and the Turin Manuscript_






Where else are you going to find songs about dope smoking?






Fumeux fume par fumee, The smoker smokes smoke,

Fumeuse speculacion. A smoky speculation.

Qu'antre fummet sa pensee, While others smoke in thought,

Fumeux fume par fumee. The smoker smokes smoke.

Quar fumer molt il agree For the smoke pleases him greatly

Tant qu'il ait son entencion. As he meditates.

Fumeux fume par fumee, The smoker smokes smoke,

Fumeuse speculacion. A smoky speculation.


----------



## Mandryka

Well yes there was even a written polyphonic tradition before Perotin, I mean most obviously in the Winchester Troper, this sort of thing. But it is SO different from Viderunt Omnes.



cheregi said:


> Does Peres say that the tradition _developed_ in the 17th century? I thought he was saying that new melodies were composed then but that the practice of 'chant sur le livre' was older. I know somebody else made a more explicit argument in that vein, maybe it was the jstor article linked earlier.
> 
> Here's from wiki: "Although the exact origins of polyphony in the Western church traditions are unknown, the treatises Musica enchiriadis and Scolica enchiriadis, both dating from c. 900, are usually considered the oldest extant written examples of polyphony. These treatises provided examples of two-voice note-against-note embellishments of chants using parallel octaves, fifths, and fourths. Rather than being fixed works, they indicated ways of improvising polyphony during performance."
> 
> And recalling again that we are talking about fragmentary limited written records of an oral tradition - recalling for example that we know so little that we think it plausible to insert a drone underneath a monophonically-notated chant - who is to say that in actual practice, church singers stuck to only two independent voices?
> 
> The other thing is of course polyphony is extraordinarily common in non-western-influenced traditional cultures around the world, especially sub-saharan Africa, Oceania, southern China... often one finds the greatest 'polyphonism'/harmonic-thinking among the 'least-developed'/'most-primitive' people of the area (in densely forested areas specifically... because the acoustics of the environment significantly impact development of musical thinking...) so it's anyway a myth that the invention of polyphony in western europe was some kind of revolutionary breakthrough.


----------



## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> Skipping straight to Dunstable past the Ars Subtilior?
> 
> _Ars subtilior (Latin for 'subtler art') is a musical style characterized by rhythmic and notational complexity, centered on Paris, Avignon in southern France, and also in northern Spain at the end of the fourteenth century.[1] The style also is found in the French Cypriot repertory. Often the term is used in contrast with ars nova, which applies to the musical style of the preceding period from about 1310 to about 1370; though some scholars prefer to consider ars subtilior a subcategory of the earlier style. Primary sources for ars subtilior are the Chantilly Codex, the Modena Codex (Mod A M 5.24), and the Turin Manuscript_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where else are you going to find songs about dope smoking?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fumeux fume par fumee, The smoker smokes smoke,
> 
> Fumeuse speculacion. A smoky speculation.
> 
> Qu'antre fummet sa pensee, While others smoke in thought,
> 
> Fumeux fume par fumee. The smoker smokes smoke.
> 
> Quar fumer molt il agree For the smoke pleases him greatly
> 
> Tant qu'il ait son entencion. As he meditates.
> 
> Fumeux fume par fumee, The smoker smokes smoke,
> 
> Fumeuse speculacion. A smoky speculation.


This one's nice


----------



## SanAntone

Bwv 1080 said:


> Skipping straight to Dunstable past the Ars Subtilior?


Right. *Johannes Ciconia* (c. 1370 - between 10 June and 13 July 1412) was an important Flemish composer and music theorist of trecento music during the late Medieval era. He was born in Liège, but worked most of his adult life in Italy, particularly in the service of the papal chapels in Rome and later and most importantly at Padua Cathedral.


----------



## SanAntone

Another important composer that was left out by OP - *Philippe de Vitry* (31 October 1291 - 9 June 1361) was a French composer, music theorist and poet. He was an accomplished, innovative, and influential composer, and may also have been the author of the Ars Nova treatise. He was widely acknowledged as the greatest musician of his day, with Petrarch writing a glowing tribute, calling him: "... the keenest and most ardent seeker of truth, so great a philosopher of our age."


----------



## Mandryka

I plan to collect examples of Medieval polyphony not attributed to Perotin or Leonin here

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,31396.msg1417762.html#new


----------



## cheregi

Mandryka said:


> But it is SO different from Viderunt Omnes.


I agree with that, certainly. The thing I want to highlight is, we are so far from knowing whether Perotin et al's innovation was, at first, 'a new kind of music' or 'a new way to write things down' - we just have no idea what people were actually _doing_ with the winchester troper. You can imagine people hocketing all the way through that, or using that as a base for further voices...

Obviously, in the long run, notation opens up new possibilities for musical complexity. But - per the conversation with Todd McComb in the google group - if medievals had had access to recording technology, they would probably not have bothered to invent notation, because for hundreds of years it was just a memory aid!

Do you know much about gong-che-pu notation in Chinese traditional music? It's basically a solfege. And there are some recreations of Ming-dynasty ritual musics based on old gong-che-pu documents. But there is also a living tradition of Buddhist monks playing similar music from gong-che-pu. And of course, even without bringing taste into the equation, there is just so much more complexity in the living version of the tradition, there is just so much more going on that isn't in the notation but is considered an essential part of performance...


----------



## Bwv 1080

But this tradition is polyphonic, not notated and could be > 50,000 years old. At least historical records mention a performance for the Pharaoh Nefrikare in 2,500BC.






I also seem to remember reading about some Roman record of Germanic tribes singing in multiple lines


----------



## Mandryka

The context of this discussion is whether Perotin drew on an established polyphonic tradition. I mean obviously he did because he was extremely familiar with two part polyphony, but the idea is that the sort of complexity of three part music was already familiar, maybe not notated.

Well, given that, I think that it's a bit of a non sequitur to mention something in Africa or China. I would like some examples in good old Europa please.

I'm sure Perotin was aware of polyphony by the way. Everyone who's taken a walk in the woods in Spring and bothered to listen to the birds is aware of polyphony. The question is whether he already understood three part polyphony as _music_ before writing down some of it himself, and in doing so making some church hit songs.


----------



## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> The context of this discussion is whether Perotin drew on an established polyphonic tradition. I mean obviously he did because he was extremely familiar with two part polyphony, but the idea is that the sort of complexity of three part music was already familiar, maybe not notated.
> 
> I'm sure Perotin was aware of polyphony by the way. Everyone who's taken a walk in the woods in Spring and bothered to listen to the birds is aware of polyphony. The question is whether he already understood three part polyphony as _music_ before writing down some of it himself, and in doing so making some church hit songs.


It is a natural evolution from two part polyphony to adding third and fourth parts. I wouldn't read too much into it. It has been assumed that Pérotin pioneered the styles of organum triplum and organum quadruplum - since his are the only surviving examples. But it does not stand to reason that he was alone in this.

And it need not have been improvised, although it makes no difference even if it was - the style was eventually codified in the Magnus Liber Organi which Pérotin officially revised.

Much of this work was making more concise, shortening sections, in the wake of Leonin's duplum. This second part had to be sung fast, consisting sometimes in as many as 40 notes to a single syllable of text caused the meaning to become lost. Pérotin often added a third voice to these revised pieces. (Roesner, Edward (2001a). "Perotinus [Perrotinus, Perotinus Magnus, Magister Perotinus, Pérotin]". Grove Music Online)

"Two styles emerged from the organum duplum, the "florid" and "discant" (discantus). The former was more typical of Léonin, the latter of Pérotin, though this indirect attribution has been challenged. Anonymous IV described Léonin as optimus organista (the best composer of organa) but Pérotin, who revised the former's Magnus Liber Organi (Great Organum Book), as optimus discantor referring to his discant composition. In the original discant organum duplum, the second voice follows the cantus firmus, note on note but at an interval, usually a fourth above. By contrast, in the florid organum, the upper or vox organalis voice wove shorter notes around the longer notes of the lower tenor chant." (Berger, Anna Maria Busse (2005). Medieval Music and the Art of Memory; Vellard, Dominique (1986). Ecole de Notre-Dame de Paris 1163-1245: Monodies et polyphones vocales (Liner notes) (CD); Planchart, Alejandro Enrique (2000). Organum. pp. 23-51.)


----------



## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> It is a natural evolution from two part polyphony to adding third and fourth parts. I wouldn't read too much into it. It has been assumed that Pérotin pioneered the styles of organum triplum and organum quadruplum - since his are the only surviving examples. But it does not stand to reason that he was alone in this.
> 
> And it need not have been improvised, although it makes no difference even if it was - the style was eventually codified in the Magnus Liber Organi which Pérotin officially revised.
> 
> Much of this work was making more concise, shortening sections, in the wake of Leonin's duplum. This second part had to be sung fast, consisting sometimes in as many as 40 notes to a single syllable of text caused the meaning to become lost. Pérotin often added a third voice to these revised pieces. (Roesner, Edward (2001a). "Perotinus [Perrotinus, Perotinus Magnus, Magister Perotinus, Pérotin]". Grove Music Online)
> 
> "Two styles emerged from the organum duplum, the "florid" and "discant" (discantus). The former was more typical of Léonin, the latter of Pérotin, though this indirect attribution has been challenged. Anonymous IV described Léonin as optimus organista (the best composer of organa) but Pérotin, who revised the former's Magnus Liber Organi (Great Organum Book), as optimus discantor referring to his discant composition. In the original discant organum duplum, the second voice follows the cantus firmus, note on note but at an interval, usually a fourth above. By contrast, in the florid organum, the upper or vox organalis voice wove shorter notes around the longer notes of the lower tenor chant." (Berger, Anna Maria Busse (2005). Medieval Music and the Art of Memory; Vellard, Dominique (1986). Ecole de Notre-Dame de Paris 1163-1245: Monodies et polyphones vocales (Liner notes) (CD); Planchart, Alejandro Enrique (2000). Organum. pp. 23-51.)


So can we all agree that there was no four part polyphonic music in Europe before Perotin, as far as we know?


----------



## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> So can we all agree that there was no three part polyphonic music in Europe before Perotin, as far as we know?


We can't know for sure, there's no way to prove a negative - but it is hard to believe Pérotin was alone. I don't think anything survives (even anonymous) other than Pérotin's works - so I suppose we have to be satisfied with that answer.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> So can we all agree that there was no three part polyphonic music in Europe before Perotin, as far as we know?


But how would we know? 3-part polyphony over a drone like Perotin's Viderunt Omnes can be found in folk music in Georgia and the Balkans, and scholars view this as predating the fourth century introduction of Christianity. We have no idea what pre-Christian German music sounded like.


----------



## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> We can't know for sure, there's no way to prove a negative - but it is hard to believe Pérotin was alone. I don't think anything survives (even anonymous) other than Pérotin's works - so I suppose we have to be satisfied with that answer.


Sorry I should have said 4 voice polyphony. I'll edit the post.

I must say, looking at the English translation of Anonymous 4 on wiki, he doesn't say that Perotin invented it, only that it was the best.



> This Magister Perotinus made the best quadrupla, such as Viderunt and Sederunt, with an abundance of striking musical embellishments


----------



## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> But how would we know?


I don't know, don't they look at the iconography and medieval technical books on music? I'm out of my depth.

I guess it wouldn't be surprising if a band of four people got together at a party. Nothing follows!


----------



## SanAntone

Bwv 1080 said:


> But how would we know? 3-part polyphony over a drone like Perotin's Viderunt Omnes can be found in folk music in Georgia and the Balkans, and scholars view this as predating the fourth century introduction of Christianity. We have no idea what pre-Christian German music sounded like.


But that is beside the point since Pérotin and others would not have heard or known of it. What we know of music prior to the Notre Dame School is chant, is Jewish synagogue tropes - pre-Christian, but this is also where the early Christian prayer service originated.

When this Jewish chanting made it way to Italy and France, it became Gregorian chant, which then led directly to the organum of Leonin and Perotin. I think the traditions of Western Europe and the East you mention are distinct and one did not influence the other.

This is my objection to much of what Marcel Peres does, bringing in singing styles from Eastern styles in the performance of Western chant. I think he does it because he likes the sound of it, not based on sound scholarship. I could be wrong, but that is my gut feeling.


----------



## Bwv 1080

SanAntone said:


> But that is beside the point since Pérotin and others would not have heard or known of it. What we know of music prior to the Notre Dame School is chant, is Jewish synagogue tropes - pre-Christian, but this is also where the early Christian prayer service originated.
> 
> When this Jewish chanting made it way to Italy and France, it became Gregorian chant, which then led directly to the organum of Leonin and Perotin. I think the traditions of Western Europe and the East you mention are distinct and one did not influence the other.
> 
> This is my objection to much of what Marcel Peres does, bringing in singing styles from Eastern styles in the performance of Western chant. I think he does it because he likes the sound of it, not based on sound scholarship. I could be wrong, but that is my gut feeling.


If in the European backwaters of Georgia and the Balkans an older polyphonic folk tradition persists, it may be that this type of music was widespread from before antiquity or spread during Roman times. Dont think we know much about the pre-Christian folk traditions of Western Europe


----------



## Chilham

SanAntone said:


> Another important composer that was left out by OP - *Philippe de Vitry*...


Is it Philippe de Vitry you want? I aim to please.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Guillaume de Machaut: Messe de Notre Dame

*Level 4*
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa l'Homme Armé
Guillaume de Machaut: Douce Dame Jolie

*Level 5*
Dunstaple, John: Quam Pulchra Es	
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa Se La Face Ay Pale
Dufay, Guillaume: Nuper rosarum flores
Landini, Francesco: Ballades inc. Ecco la primavera, Non Ara Ma' Pieta, Sì dolce non sonò chol lir' Orfeo
Dufay, Guillaume: Secular Songs inc. Adieu ces bons vins de Lannoys, Se La Face Ay Pale, Craindre Vous Vueil, Hélas Mon Deuil, a ce Coup- Sui Je Mort, Ce Jour de l'An, Je Languis en Piteux Martire
Guillaume de Machaut: Ma fin est mon commencement

*Level 6*
*Guillaume de Machaut: Le Remède de Fortune	
Dunstaple, John: Veni Sancte Spritus	
Dufay, Guillaume: Ave Regina Coelorum	
Power, Leonel: Missa Alma Redemptoris Mater	
Philippe de Vitry: Motets inc. Impudenter circumivi / Virtutibus
Seuse, Heinrich: In Dulce Jubilo	
Guillaume de Machaut: Le Livre du Voir Dit	
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa Ave Regina Coelorum	
Philippe de Vitry: Roman de Fauvel Motets	
Guillaume de Machaut: Felix Virgo / Inviolata / Ad Te Suspiramus	
Oswald von Wolkenstein: Es Fuegt Sich	
Dunstaple, John: Gloria in Canon	
Dufay, Guillaume: Supremum est Mortalibus Bonum	
Busnoys, Antoine: In Hydraulis	
Busnoys, Antoine: Missa l'Homme Armé*

My listening today:










Dunstaple: Veni Sancte Spiritus
Power Missa Alma Redemptoris Mater

Hilliard Ensemble










Guillaume de Machaut: Remede de Fortune

Ensemble Ars Nova Project










Guillaume de Machaut: Le Livre du Voir Dit

Orlando Consort










Philippe de Vitry: Le Roman de Fauvel

Joel Cohen










Philippe de Vitry: Motets

Orlando Consort


----------



## cheregi

Mandryka said:


> I don't know, don't they look at the iconography and medieval technical books on music? I'm out of my depth.
> 
> I guess it wouldn't be surprising if a band of four people got together at a party. Nothing follows!


When I started reading academic publications about this stuff instead of just liner notes this is exactly the thing that got me - the sheer insane paucity of sources! I mean you mentioned Anon 4 earlier - Anon 4 who is quite literally the sole source of information about Leonin and Perotin ("Other than a brief mention by music theorist Johannes de Garlandia in his De Mensurabili Musica" -wiki), the sole foundation of their contemporary canonization... some student's final exam essay answers which happened to be preserved in exactly one copy which was simply lucky to have survived all this time and to be rediscovered... Like, just imagine the contradictory or additional information which happened to not be preserved, or, imagine how different our picture of medieval music would be if things were reshuffled only slightly in this chain of preservation...

How many 'medieval technical books on music' do you think contemporary academics actually have access to? I think it would be not that difficult to define those terms such that the total comes out less than 10. And they all contradict each other, or are silent on the issues we really want to know about, or describe things in such a roundabout way as to be decipherable in many different ways...

This is one of those things where I'm like, is everybody else just not seeing the same situation as me, or what? How can it be that our picture of medieval music is routinely upended by new research, but every time the dust settles we say, 'ok, NOW we have a fairly clear picture of things, NOW we can confidently say Perotin invented four-voice polyphony in Europe'?


----------



## Mandryka

cheregi said:


> but every time the dust settles we say, 'ok, NOW we have a fairly clear picture of things, NOW we can confidently say Perotin invented four-voice polyphony in Europe'?


Nobody would say that, I mean nobody would get away with it if I were in the seminar.



cheregi said:


> This is one of those things where I'm like, is everybody else just not seeing the same situation as me, or what?


What are you seeing exactly?


----------



## Bwv 1080

cheregi said:


> NOW we can confidently say Perotin invented four-voice polyphony in Europe'?


Is Viderunt Omnes 4-voice or 3-voice plus a drone?


----------



## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> Is Viderunt Omnes 4-voice or 3-voice plus a drone?


It is four voice. I see no drone. I see a tenor.






This is chant with a drone


----------



## science

I love a good drone. Nothing sounds more spiritual to me.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> It is four voice. I see no drone. I see a tenor.


Ok it's 4 voices there, but for a lot of the piece the tenor acts like a drone


----------



## cheregi

Mandryka said:


> Nobody would say that, I mean nobody would get away with it if I were in the seminar.


Certainly. But it seems to me implicit in, for example, any narrative of medieval music which takes Leonin and Perotin as the forefathers of the great polyphonic tradition, instead of something like, 'we know these two guys existed and at one time and one place were held in high esteem, but we don't know all these other things that plausibly could've been true that would totally reorient our understanding of their importance'.

I feel like this is Schmelzer's whole thing, which I used to see as a bit of schtick but now am totally in sympathy with - the idea that the only non-absurd response to the scraps of information we think we have, in the field of early music performance, is to just freely spin off into what might appear to be fantasy, because the results are genuinely just as 'historically informed' as the most straight-laced research-synthesizing people.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Mandryka said:


> I see no drone. I see a tenor.


Well, I see both. Let's just call it a *DRONET* or *TENORD*.


----------



## SanAntone

cheregi said:


> Certainly. But it seems to me implicit in, for example, any narrative of medieval music which takes Leonin and Perotin as the forefathers of the great polyphonic tradition, instead of something like, 'we know these two guys existed and at one time and one place were held in high esteem, but we don't know all these other things that plausibly could've been true that would totally reorient our understanding of their importance'.
> 
> I feel like this is Schmelzer's whole thing, which I used to see as a bit of schtick but now am totally in sympathy with - the idea that the only non-absurd response to the scraps of information we think we have, in the field of early music performance, is to just freely spin off into what might appear to be fantasy, because the results are genuinely just as 'historically informed' as the most straight-laced research-synthesizing people.


I don't have any issue with Schmelzer or Peres performing these ancient works with stylistic interpretations coming from anywhere. But Peres, especially, tries to make a scholarly case that he is correct. This is my problem, what I see as propaganda parading as musicology.

Taruskin made the point decades ago that the HIP movement is really a manifestation of post-modernism, i.e. using whatever argumentation we wish to create a whiff of authenticity but really it is an expression of personal taste draped in the clothes of period performance.

That said, I vastly prefer HIP/PI performances/recordings over modern ones which incorporate no aspect of historical accuracy.

There have been some horrid performances of Early Music, Machaut e.g., in which over large choirs, brass instruments, and other inappropriate things are used, or people like Lucien Kandel and his group Ensemble Musica Nova abusing musica ficta to transform Machaut into a composer writing diatonic music.

Schmelzer and Peres are a breath of fresh air even if they err on the opposite end of the spectrum, i.e. trying to conjure an even more exotic sound from music for which we don't have enough information to know exactly how it really sounded.


----------



## Chilham

Bwv 1080 said:


> Skipping straight to Dunstable past the Ars Subtilior?...


Ars Subtilior produced very few recommendations, but the ones there are you'll find below in Level 7.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Guillaume de Machaut: Messe de Notre Dame

*Level 4*
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa l'Homme Armé
Guillaume de Machaut: Douce Dame Jolie

*Level 5*
Dunstaple, John: Quam Pulchra Es 
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa Se La Face Ay Pale
Dufay, Guillaume: Nuper rosarum flores
Landini, Francesco: Ballades inc. Ecco la primavera, Non Ara Ma' Pieta, Sì dolce non sonò chol lir' Orfeo
Dufay, Guillaume: Secular Songs inc. Adieu ces bons vins de Lannoys, Se La Face Ay Pale, Craindre Vous Vueil, Hélas Mon Deuil, a ce Coup- Sui Je Mort, Ce Jour de l'An, Je Languis en Piteux Martire
Guillaume de Machaut: Ma fin est mon commencement

*Level 6*
Guillaume de Machaut: Le Remède de Fortune 
Dunstaple, John: Veni Sancte Spritus 
Dufay, Guillaume: Ave Regina Coelorum 
Power, Leonel: Missa Alma Redemptoris Mater 
Philippe de Vitry: Motets inc. Impudenter circumivi / Virtutibus
Seuse, Heinrich: In Dulce Jubilo 
Guillaume de Machaut: Le Livre du Voir Dit 
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa Ave Regina Coelorum
Philippe de Vitry: Roman de Fauvel Motets 
Guillaume de Machaut: Felix Virgo / Inviolata / Ad Te Suspiramus 
Oswald von Wolkenstein: Es Fuegt Sich 
Dunstaple, John: Gloria in Canon 
Dufay, Guillaume: Supremum est Mortalibus Bonum
Busnoys, Antoine: In Hydraulis
Busnoys, Antoine: Missa l'Homme Armé

*Level 7*
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa Ecce Ancilla Domini
Dufay, Guillaume: Ave Maria Stella
Binchois, Gilles: Tristre Plaisir et Douloureuse Joye
Dunstaple, John: Preco Preheminencle
Dunstaple, John: Salve Scema/Salve Salus
Dufay, Guillaume: Ecclesie Militantis Roma Sedes
Philippe de Vitry: Tribum/Quoniam/Merito
Philippe de Vitry: Tuba Sacre/In Arboris/Virgo Sum
Guillaume de Machaut: DAVID Melisma
Guillaume de Machaut: De Toutes Flours
Guillaume de Machaut: En Mon Cuer
Guillaume de Machaut: Lai de Confort
Guillaume de Machaut: Lai de la Fonteinne
Guillaume de Machaut: Lasse / Se j'Aime / Pourquoy
Guillaume de Machaut: Les Nouveaus des Amoureus
Guillaume de Machaut: Pourquoy Me Bat Mes Maris
Guillaume de Machaut: Rose, liz Prentemps
Guillaume de Machaut: Très bonne et Belle
Guillaume de Machaut: Bone pastor Guillerme / Bone pastor, qui pastores / Bone pastor
Guillaume de Machaut: Nes Qu'on Porroit
Guillaume de Machaut: Se Je Souspir, Virelai
Guillaume de Machaut: Tous Corps / De Souspirant / Suspiro
Guillaume de Machaut: Trop de Peinne
Maestro Piero: Cavalcan Con un Giovine Accorto
Gherardello da Firenze: Donna l'Altrui Mirar
Gherardello da Firenze: Tosto Che l'Alba
Giovanni de Cascia: Appress' un Fiume Chiaro
Jacopo da Bologna: Oselleto Salvagio
Jacopo da Bologna: Non Ai Suo Amante
Anon. : Nu is du Betfart so Here "Geisslerlied" or "Flagellant's Song"
Paulo da Firenze: Benedicamus Domino
Paulo da Firenze: Madrigals
Ciconia, Johannes: Doctorum Principem - Melodia Suavissima - Vir Mitis
Philippus de Caserta: En remirant vo douce pourtraiture
Tapssier, Johannes: Eya Dulcis/Vale Placens
Solage: Fumeux Fume
Carmen, Johannes: Pontifici Decora Speculi
Dunstable, John: O Rosa Bella
Dunstable, John: Missa Rex Seculorum
Dufay, Guillaume: Alma Redemptoris Mater
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa Sancti Jacobi
Dufay, Guillaume: Vos Qui Secuti Estis Me
Binchois, Gilles: Alma Redemptoris Mater
Binchois, Gilles: Deal Angoisseux
Binchois, Gilles: Veni Creator Spritus
Binchois, Gilles: Filles à Marier
Busnoys, Antoine: J'Ay Pros Amours Tout au Rebours
Busnoys, Antoine: Quant J'Ay au Ceur
Busnoys, Antoine: Tu Solus Altissimus


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Carmen, Johannes: Pontifici Decora Speculi


Is there a way to hear this, or indeed to hear anything by Carmen?



Chilham said:


> Busnoys, Antoine: J'Ay Pros Amours Tout au Rebours
> Busnoys, Antoine: Quant J'Ay au Ceur
> Busnoys, Antoine: Tu Solus Altissimus


These too are unknown to me as far as I remember. Always a joy to revisit Busnois.


----------



## Neo Romanza

I don't understand the need for anyone to have some regiment in order to enjoy music. Pretty ludicrous actually. So, no, I definitely won't be joining you or anyone else in any kind of planned listening schedule. I prefer to listen at _my_ own leisure, not someone else's.


----------



## Mandryka

Neo Romanza said:


> I don't understand the need for anyone to have some regiment in order to enjoy music. Pretty ludicrous actually. So, no, I definitely won't be joining you or anyone else in any kind of planned listening schedule. I prefer to listen at _my_ own leisure, not someone else's.


Lots of people need orientation, they want to classify and rate things so that they can reassure themselves that they're on the "right" track. It's something I've felt myself sometimes in very recent music, because, basically, there are a lot of composers, a lot of music, and no trustable authoritative signposts. I've learned not to be bothered by it, to relish the absence of a canon, a list, but it was/is a hurdle to overcome.

For most people, classical music is easy -- you just listen to the stuff the radio broadcasts and the streaming companies promote and the teachers in school tell you that you need to know about to get through the test. Music is a consumer product and you allow yourself to be swayed by capitalist forces.


----------



## cheregi

SanAntone said:


> I don't have any issue with Schmelzer or Peres performing these ancient works with stylistic interpretations coming from anywhere. But Peres, especially, tries to make a scholarly case that he is correct. This is my problem, what I see as propaganda parading as musicology.
> 
> Taruskin made the point decades ago that the HIP movement is really a manifestation of post-modernism, i.e. using whatever argumentation we wish to create a whiff of authenticity but really it is an expression of personal taste draped in the clothes of period performance.
> 
> That said, I vastly prefer HIP/PI performances/recordings over modern ones which incorporate no aspect of historical accuracy.
> 
> There have been some horrid performances of Early Music, Machaut e.g., in which over large choirs, brass instruments, and other inappropriate things are used, or people like Lucien Kandel and his group Ensemble Musica Nova abusing musica ficta to transform Machaut into a composer writing diatonic music.
> 
> Schmelzer and Peres are a breath of fresh air even if they err on the opposite end of the spectrum, i.e. trying to conjure an even more exotic sound from music for which we don't have enough information to know exactly how it really sounded.


Interesting. I haven't read enough Peres liner notes (or wherever else he is publishing) to get a sense of his overall claims around that but I certainly trust your analysis. And of course it is just another trap to assume western music evolves while 'eastern' music stays static and that the past can be accessed better by using 'eastern' sounds...

I'm actually quite partial to those 'horrid' performances. One of my favorite early music ensembles is Quintetto Vocale Italiano, who recorded Gesualdo's madrigals in the 1960s(?) with extreme and incessant vibrato and with that kind of soft, almost 'crooned' tone production, it's extraordinary.


----------



## Chilham

Chilham said:


> ... Join me for the full journey or link in when it suits your listening. I hope there'll be plenty of discussion, and only ask that whatever you share remains positive and helpful to those with perhaps less experience and knowledge than you.





Neo Romanza said:


> I don't understand the need for anyone to have some regiment in order to enjoy music. Pretty ludicrous actually. So, no, I definitely won't be joining you or anyone else in any kind of planned listening schedule. I prefer to listen at _my_ own leisure, not someone else's.


Good. Then. ............


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Is there a way to hear this, or indeed to hear anything by Carmen?....


Not sure if this might be listed in error. There's also a reference to Lorenzo de Ponte in the recommendation. Needs more research.



Mandryka said:


> ... These too are unknown to me as far as I remember. Always a joy to revisit Busnois.


Same guy, different spelling.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Same guy, different spelling.


Sure, my point was that those songs aren't familiar to me.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Sure, my point was that those songs aren't familiar to me.


Here's one I think:


----------



## Chilham

Josquin, Ockeghem and their contemporaries starts tomorrow.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Josquin, Ockeghem and their contemporaries starts tomorrow.


That's by Jean Japart.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> That's by Jean Japart.


I know it's on an album sub-titled, "secular music of Jean Japaret", but in addition to Japart the playlist contains music by Josquin, Obrecht, Martini, de Vines, Ghizeghem, and this one by Busnois.


----------



## eljr

SanAntone said:


> Well, I might join those months for Early music (January) and Contemporary music (December).


They are the best, aren't they... followed by teh Baroque.


----------



## new but obsessed

Neo Romanza said:


> I don't understand the need for anyone to have some regiment in order to enjoy music. Pretty ludicrous actually. So, no, I definitely won't be joining you or anyone else in any kind of planned listening schedule. I prefer to listen at _my_ own leisure, not someone else's.


Sometimes I like to walk around an art museum. Sometimes I enjoy a docent tour with a group to share the experience with and learn from others.

Sometimes I want to read books on my own time. Sometimes I want to do it along with a book club and chat about what we've been reading.

Hardly ludicrous. Actually, quite a popular mode of engaging with art.

EDIT: and it's not like any of us are paying for this or assigned homework or are taking tests. At least for me, this does count as listening at my own leisure. I mean.... isn't that the whole point of TC? Surely any of us could be enjoying all this great music out there without ever needing to chat about it with strangers online.


----------



## science

Neo Romanza said:


> I don't understand the need for anyone to have some regiment [sic] in order to enjoy music. Pretty ludicrous actually. So, no, I definitely won't be joining you or anyone else in any kind of planned listening schedule. I prefer to listen at _my_ own leisure, not someone else's.


I guess we all do what we want to do, including tell other people that what they want to do is ludicrous.


----------



## Neo Romanza

new but obsessed said:


> Sometimes I like to walk around an art museum. Sometimes I enjoy a docent tour with a group to share the experience with and learn from others.
> 
> Sometimes I want to read books on my own time. Sometimes I want to do it along with a book club and chat about what we've been reading.
> 
> Hardly ludicrous. Actually, quite a popular mode of engaging with art.
> 
> EDIT: and it's not like any of us are paying for this or assigned homework or are taking tests. At least for me, this does count as listening at my own leisure. I mean.... isn't that the whole point of TC? Surely any of us could be enjoying all this great music out there without ever needing to chat about it with strangers online.





science said:


> I guess we all do what we want to do, including tell other people that what they want to do is ludicrous.


The whole point of Talk Classical is to share opinions and I gave mine about this particular idea from the OP. It's always a curious thing that when someone comes in with a different viewpoint that doesn't match the head-nodders, they're somehow seen as "an enemy of the state".


----------



## science

Neo Romanza said:


> The whole point of Talk Classical is to share opinions and I gave mine about this particular idea from the OP. It's always a curious thing that when someone comes in with a different viewpoint that doesn't match the head-nodders, they're somehow seen as "an enemy of the state".


You're obviously far more gloriously nonconformist than I am and your contribution to this thread might wake up the sheeple like me.


----------



## Chilham

So, rather than let the thread sit doing nothing other than attracting detractors for a couple of days, let's press on. Composers born 1400-1499 excluding those already covered under the Burgundian School.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
*Josquin des Prez* *- Missa Pange Lingua*

My listening today:










Josquin: Missa Pange Lingua

Peter Phillips & The Tallis Scholars


----------



## SanAntone

There is a thread called *For Love of Early Music *which is a general thread for discussing this long period of music. There are similar threads for each period of music history.

I gather this thread has a specific purpose something like a monthly survey of the entire history of music by considering some works as representing each period as decided by one person.

Okay.


----------



## science

Chilham said:


> *Josquin des Prez* *- Missa Pange Lingua*


One of the great ones.

IDK if you're planning to listen to Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae but it's one of my favorites by him as well.


----------



## Chilham

SanAntone said:


> There is a thread called *For Love of Early Music *which is a general thread for discussing this long period of music. There are similar threads for each period of music history.
> 
> I gather this thread has a specific purpose something like a monthly survey of the entire history of music by considering some works as representing each period as decided by one person.
> 
> Okay.


I think I linked to that excellent thread earlier. The idea is not to replace or compete with that or other great threads, but to serve as a resource for new listeners.

The music wasn't decided by one person. Yes, I decided which sources to use, but not the works themselves. The works shown in this thread are the result of surveying nearly forty sources of recommendations including classical radio stations in the US, UK and Australia, books by Swafford and others, academic sources, publications from the US and UK, and internet sources such as our own Talk Classical listings.

For clarity, works listed at:

Level 1 received more than 22 recommendations
Level 2 between 16 and 21 recommendations
Level 3 between 10 and 15 recommendations
Level 4 between 7 and 10 recommendations
Level 5 between 4 and 6 recommendations
Level 6 either 2 or 3 recommendations
Level 7 only 1 recommendation


----------



## Chilham

science said:


> One of the great ones.
> 
> IDK if you're planning to listen to Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae but it's one of my favorites by him as well.


Only got a couple of recommendations so won't be with us for a couple of days. Not one in my listening library so on your recommendation, I'll line it up ready to play on Sunday.


----------



## SanAntone

Chilham said:


> I think I linked to that excellent thread earlier. The idea is not to replace or compete with that or other great threads, but to serve as a resource for new listeners.
> 
> The music wasn't decided by one person. Yes, I decided which sources to use, but not the works themselves. The works shown in this thread are the result of surveying nearly forty sources of recommendations including classical radio stations in the US, UK and Australia, books by Swafford and others, academic sources, publications from the US and UK, and internet sources such as our own Talk Classical listings.
> 
> For clarity, works listed at:
> 
> Level 1 received more than 22 recommendations
> Level 2 between 16 and 21 recommendations
> Level 3 between 10 and 15 recommendations
> Level 4 between 7 and 10 recommendations
> Level 5 between 4 and 6 recommendations
> Level 6 either 2 or 3 recommendations
> Level 7 only 1 recommendation


Noted. 

As one of my professors used to say, "proceed with confidence." I always thought he still had doubts, though.


----------



## new but obsessed

I wonder if anyone can comment on any direct comparisons we can make thus far in our listening. If I'm not mistaken, many of these early works are essentially different versions of the same prayers in a Greek/Roman Catholic mass (Kyrie, Gloria, etc). So the words are the same, but the style and notation of singing evolve over time, right? 

Does anyone know how long this evolution continued? I grew up R.C. (no longer practicing) but none of our songs/hymns were in Greek or Latin, and I don't think I've ever attended a traditional high mass. I wonder how different modern high masses might be from those of the 12th - 15th Century.

And if there's any context for similar traditions in Jewish and Muslim worship songs, as I imagine there would have been great cultural mixing around the mediterranean, and many of the "old testament" poems and songs are somewhat shared, though in different languages.


----------



## science

new but obsessed said:


> I wonder if anyone can comment on any direct comparisons we can make thus far in our listening. If I'm not mistaken, many of these early works are essentially different versions of the same prayers in a Greek/Roman Catholic mass (Kyrie, Gloria, etc). So the words are the same, but the style and notation of singing evolve over time, right?
> 
> Does anyone know how long this evolution continued? I grew up R.C. (no longer practicing) but none of our songs/hymns were in Greek or Latin, and I don't think I've ever attended a traditional high mass. I wonder how different modern high masses might be from those of the 12th - 15th Century.
> 
> And if there's any context for similar traditions in Jewish and Muslim worship songs, as I imagine there would have been great cultural mixing around the mediterranean, and many of the "old testament" poems and songs are somewhat shared, though in different languages.


In the Latin rite of the Roman Catholic Church, the words of the "Ordinary" have been the same for many centuries, although sometimes translated into other languages. That's what we usually hear in a mass -- the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, etc.... The rest of it differs depending on the day (i.e. which saints are being celebrated, which passages of the Bible are supposed to be read) so people usually didn't bother composing special music for that.

If you get into other rites -- Byzantine and so on -- there are differences, but they don't matter for most Western music.


----------



## Mandryka

new but obsessed said:


> I wonder if anyone can comment on any direct comparisons we can make thus far in our listening. If I'm not mistaken, many of these early works are essentially different versions of the same prayers in a Greek/Roman Catholic mass (Kyrie, Gloria, etc). So the words are the same, but the style and notation of singing evolve over time, right?


Yes. In particular a tradition flourished in the 15th century of a composer making polyphonic settings of the ordinarium of the catholic mass, with all the parts more or less unified by a common melody. This is called a cyclic mass. So for example today someone mentioned Missa Pange Lingua. The unifying melody there is taken from the traditional monophonic way of chanting the hymn _Pange lingua gloriosi corporis mysterium_ in church.

Here's the hymn chanted






And here's Josquin's Kyrie


----------



## new but obsessed

Thanks to you both! I've read some of the translations of the Ordinary and it does seem to track with the modern English language versions of those prayers, of course. 

It's very interesting to note that the melodic lines hewed to traditions over the centuries. I'm sure the original "composer" of the melody is long forgotten. I wonder if it even was composed or if it was just a "natural" way of singing those syllables? Like a Solfege of sorts? I'm way out of my depth here as I have zero knowledge of music theory and technique. 

The point about the melodic consistencies also called up memories of the masses I attended growing up in the Philippines -- somewhat American English style, I imagine, but of course also melding in Filipino translations of prayers and original Filipino songs. (Depending on the week, you might get an English "Our Father" song or a Filipino one) -- and there was always a small volunteer choir and everyone knew the melody and sang along. There were also other sections of the masses where the celebrant would sort of sing-speak or hum-speak. They mostly were pretty terrible singers, so it's hard to imagine there was literal consistency in the melody, but it was sort of standardized, and I wonder if that standard goes as far back as the 15th century or prior. That'd be amazing to think about.

Cheers all!


----------



## science

Just a silly little note -- an older friend of mine grew up in a time when the Mass was still said in Latin in his little rural church. His last name was Colepaugh and his family pronounced it like "cole pah." So when he was in church as a kid and the priest would say, "Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa," (something like "I've sinned, I've sinned, I've greatly sinned" or "I'm guilty, I'm guilty, I'm very guilty") he thought they were saying something about him.

Also, some people believe the phrase "hocus pocus" is based on the point in the Mass where the priest elevates the bread and declares "hoc est corpus" ("this is [my] body").

One of the problems of translating the rituals into the vernacular is that so much potential for misunderstanding is lost.


----------



## Chilham

Next up, a couple more Josquin pieces:

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Josquin des Prez - Missa Pange Lingua

*Level 4*
*Josquin des Prez: Ave Maria, Gratia Plena, Dominus Tecum, Virgo Serena
Josquin des Prez: Missa l'Homme Armé super voces musicales*

My listening today:










Josquin: Ave Maria, Gratia Plena, Dominus Tecum, Virgo Serena

Hilliard Ensemble










Josquin: Missa l'Homme Armé super voces musicales

Peter Phillips & The Tallis Scholars


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Next up, a couple more Josquin pieces:
> 
> *Level 1*
> No works
> 
> *Level 2*
> No works
> 
> *Level 3*
> Josquin des Prez - Missa Pange Lingua
> 
> *Level 4*
> *Josquin des Prez: Ave Maria, Gratia Plena, Dominus Tecum, Virgo Serena
> Josquin des Prez: Missa l'Homme Armé super voces musicales*
> 
> My listening today:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Josquin: Ave Maria, Gratia Plena, Dominus Tecum, Virgo Serena
> 
> Hilliard Ensemble
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Josquin: Missa l'Homme Armé super voces musicales
> 
> Peter Phillips & The Tallis Scholars


Can you hear anything of the L'homme armé tune in the mass? I always think it's interesting how these composers thought nothing of introducing popular songs into liturgical music, as if everything was sacred, even a silly little song like this






Josquin wrote a couple of l'homme armé masses, the SVM being earlier. I like the SVM very much. L'homme armé masses were real popular - there are heaps of them by Renaissance composers - I have no idea why this tune tickled their fancy so much! And I have no idea why they all liked to chose existing music to base their cyclic masses on.

Can someone tell me what super voces muscales means? What's it all about?

You've focussed a lot on Josquin. I think his music is a kind of end of the line. For me, Renaissance music after Josquin is not so interesting at best, and downright annoying at worst, with the possible exception of Lassus. But you may feel differently, many people do. It's a good I idea to keep track of the chronology I think - just to put a bit of conceptual structure on all the stuff you're trying to hear - IMO you're going way to fast, this stuff needs digesting, and it's so strange by the standards of more recent music that digesting it takes time.

Another thing I want to say. These cyclic masses weren't designed to be listened to as concert music. The composers wrote them thinking that the audience would hear them in a service, with chanted propers. Josquin, Ockeghem, Dufay knew what they were about IMO, and so it may be worth your while just once hearing a mass with a bunch of Gregorian propers mixed in with the polyphonic music. Of course it makes the experience very different - much longer. You may decide it's not for you (it's not for me!) But on the other hand it may open up something.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> You've focussed a lot on Josquin. I think his music is a kind of end of the line. For me, Renaissance music after Josquin is not so interesting at best, and downright annoying at worst, with the possible exception of Lassus.


Except for Tallis I would agree with that


----------



## SanAntone

There are plenty of good composers after Josquin: Gombert, Morales, de Rore, Palestrina, Lassus, Victoria, Gesualdo - and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.


----------



## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> There are plenty of good composers after Josquin: Gombert, Morales, de Rore, Palestrina, Lassus, Victoria, Gesualdo - and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.


I never said anything about good composers. I don't find Gombert, Willaert, Manchicourt and others whose names I'm forgetting, specially interesting to hear -- lots of imitative counterpoint and not a lot of relief in the music. Palestrina is another one who I find not so interesting, I know you like him but you're not me. Lassus is the exception which proves the rule.

Gesualdo either gives me the heebie jeebies. Too much dissonance. Or he sounds like another bog standard madrigalist.

Rore . . . possibly. Possibly not!


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> ...You've focussed a lot on Josquin....


Nothing I can do about that. He's the most recommended composer of the period. There're more composers coming over the weekend.



Mandryka said:


> ...IMO you're going way to fast....


Not much I can do about that either. I'm already going more slowly through this period than the volume of recommended listening dictates.


----------



## SanAntone

Chilham said:


> Nothing I can do about that. He's the most recommended composer of the period. There're more composers coming over the weekend.
> 
> Not much I can do about that either. I'm already going more slowly through this period than the volume of recommended listening dictates.


The problem is the "recommended listening." There are many composers/works that are worth listening to outside of your list.


----------



## Chilham

SanAntone said:


> The problem is the "recommended listening." There are many composers/works that are worth listening to outside of your list.


There isn't a problem. I've never positioned this as an extensive list of all composers worth listening to. What I'm listing is the most recommended listening. Any composers missing are simply not recommended by any source I've identified. If there's any further listening you'd recommend, please share your suggestions once the full list for the period is posted.


----------



## pianozach

Chilham said:


> There isn't a problem. I've never positioned this as an extensive list of all composers worth listening to. What I'm listing is the most recommended listening. Any composers missing are simply not recommended by any source I've identified. If there's any further listening you'd recommend, please share your suggestions once the full list for the period is posted.


Yes.

As with my own thread, the purpose is to give some recommendations, partly in hopes that if the listener likes a particular recommendation, that they'll explore a composer's works further due to that inspiration. My latest post is Mendelssohn's early String Octet. Should someone find it delightful, they may wish to seek out other works from Mendolssohn, or maybe simply search on Youtube for other Octets.

I've been somewhat quiet in THIS thread so far, as I don't have a lot of expertise in pre-Baroque. I imagine I'll stick my foot in more often when the thread advances past that.

As it is, I've saved several of the shorter works for later listening. It seems that there will never be a shortage of music, new and familiar, to listen to.


----------



## SanAntone

Prior to the mass by Machaut, and all those following, are mass sections from two major manuscripts: the Ivrea Codex and the Apt Codex. These manuscripts include most of the Ordinary sections that were used to collate a complete mass. Another important anonymous complete mass is the Tournai Mass, but there are others I can't recall at the moment.

Much of this music has been recorded and is available.

Important composers that I don't think made in onto your list include: Philippe de Vitry, Johannes Ockeghem, Jacob Obrecht, Gilles de Binchois - and I'm sure others if I were refresh my memory.

Did you include the music of the troubadours? There are over 350 songs that have survived with music, and at least 2500 song texts without music. Probably 200 known troubadours, touveres including even a few female singers/composers.


----------



## Chilham

SanAntone said:


> Prior to the mass by Machaut, and all those following, are mass sections from two major manuscripts: the Ivrea Codex and the Apt Codex. These manuscripts include most of the Ordinary sections that were used to collate a complete mass. Another important anonymous complete mass is the Tournai Mass, but there are others I can't recall at the moment.
> 
> Much of this music has been recorded and is available.
> 
> Important composers that I don't think made in onto your list include: Philippe de Vitry, Johannes Ockeghem, Jacob Obrecht, Gilles de Binchois - and I'm sure others if I were refresh my memory.
> 
> Did you include the music of the troubadours? There are over 350 songs that have survived with music, and at least 2500 song texts without music. Probably 200 known troubadours, touveres including even a few female singers/composers.


I quoted you in post #111 to provide the music of de Vitry. Ockeghem is coming tomorrow, Obrecxht on Sunday. de Binchois was in post #121. Troubadours, Trouveres and Minnesangers in post #60.


----------



## Luchesi

Here's a light and entertaining video about what can be known about early notation. Howard Goodall.


----------



## SanAntone

Chilham said:


> I quoted you in post #111 to provide the music of de Vitry. Ockeghem is coming tomorrow, Obrecxht on Sunday. de Binchois was in post #121. Troubadours, Trouveres and Minnesangers in post #60.


Looks like I haven't been paying close attention, but this kind of organized listening runs contrary to my instincts. Sorry for any offense my ignorance caused.


----------



## Mandryka

Here's a nice bit of early music


----------



## Chilham

Luchesi said:


> Here's a light and entertaining video about what can be known about early notation. Howard Goodall.


Thanks for posting that. I'll watch the whole series.

Goodall is one of the sources for these recommendations.


----------



## Chilham

Incoming!

As a reminder, we're looking at works by composers born 1400-1466 except those we previously discussed as part of the Burgundian School. Still to come over the coming days, the Eton Choirbook, Obrecht, re la Rue and others. For today, Level 5 (works receiving between 4 and 6 recommendations) reveals only two pieces, both by Ockeghem.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Josquin des Prez - Missa Pange Lingua

*Level 4*
Josquin des Prez: Ave Maria, Gratia Plena, Dominus Tecum, Virgo Serena
Josquin des Prez: Missa l'Homme Armé super voces musicales

*Level 5*
*Ockeghem, Johannes: Missa Prolationum
Ockeghem, Johannes: Requiem (Missa Pro Defunctis)*

My listening today:










Ockeghem: Missa Prolationum

The Sound and the Fury


----------



## SanAntone

Sorry for the interruption, but I am back-tracking to fill in with something I did not see previously in this thread.

I did not find this mentioned in any post or level - but it is an important collection of music from the Medieval period.

*Cantigas de Santa Maria*






There is a TC thread devoted to the composer, or more appropriately, patron of this collection.

*Alfonso X of Castile (1221 - 1284)*

Some background from Wikipedia:

The Cantigas de Santa Maria (Galician: [kanˈtiɣɐz ðɪ ˈsantɐ maˈɾi.ɐ], Portuguese: [kɐ̃ˈtiɣɐʒ ðɨ ˈsɐ̃tɐ mɐˈɾi.ɐ]; "Canticles of Holy Mary") are 420 poems with musical notation, written in the medieval Galician-Portuguese language during the reign of Alfonso X of Castile El Sabio (1221-1284). Traditionally, they are all attributed to Alfonso, though scholars have since established that the musicians and poets of his court were responsible for most of them, with Alfonso being credited with a few as well.[1]

It is one of the largest collections of monophonic (solo) songs from the Middle Ages and is characterized by the mention of the Virgin Mary in every song, while every tenth song is a hymn.

The Cantigas have survived in four manuscript codices: two at El Escorial, one at Madrid's National Library, and one in Florence, Italy. The E codex from El Escorial is illuminated with colored miniatures showing pairs of musicians playing a wide variety of instruments. The Códice Rico (T) from El Escorial and the one in the Biblioteca Nazionale Centrale of Florence (F) are richly illuminated with narrative vignettes.


----------



## new but obsessed

Luchesi said:


> Here's a light and entertaining video about what can be known about early notation. Howard Goodall.


Thanks for posting this. Super corny but great context! I have been trying to figure out the preponderance of liturgical/religious music in this early era, and this explains a lot.


----------



## SanAntone

Another important body of literature from the Middle Ages that has been recorded at least twice: celebrating the life of *Ramon Llull*

This clip is from *Jordi Savall'*s excellent, and more recent recording.






*The Last Pilgrimage,* a three-CD set on the Licanus label (CDM 1640) with book released in the summer of 2016 by the *Capella de Ministrers*, which is based in Valencia, Spain, and directed by *Carles Magraner*






A native of Majorca, *Llull* (1232-1316) was a poet, composer, philosopher, logician, scientist, mystic, and theologian, a figure whose life prefigured the careers of such later polymaths as Leonardo da Vinci, Emanuel Swedenborg, Gottfried Leibnitz, William Playfair, Georges Gurdjieff, and Friedrich Nietzsche.

But there is no one in history quite like Llull, After forswearing his early life as a troubadour in a burst of religious inspiration, he became convinced that the way to achieve a truly Catholic world was not through conquest but through direct dialogue with people of other faiths, and to this end he bought an Arabic slave to teach him the language. He even viewed the Crusades, which he actively promoted, as a way of regaining a Near Eastern beachhead from which to interact with the Saracens. If the Nobel Peace Prize had an Old-Timers category, Llull would be a shoe-in as an honoree.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any extant music by Llull (in this he is like Leonardo). So to trace his life and achievements chronologically, the selections performed by Savall, the instrumentalists of Hespèrion XXI, and the vocalists of La Capella Reial de Catalunya are mostly drawn from the usual playbook of 13th- and 14th-century secular and sacred music, including processions, istampitta, conductus, cantigas, etc., progressing to a striking Ars Nova motet by Philippe de Vitry.

These are supplemented with exotic music of Moorish and North African origin and Sephardic chant, performed with the help of wonderful guest artists steeped in these traditions.


----------



## Chilham

More beautiful masses today, together with some short songs by Josquin.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Josquin des Prez - Missa Pange Lingua

*Level 4*
Josquin des Prez: Ave Maria, Gratia Plena, Dominus Tecum, Virgo Serena
Josquin des Prez: Missa l'Homme Armé super voces musicales

*Level 5*
Ockeghem, Johannes: Missa Prolationum
Ockeghem, Johannes: Requiem (Missa Pro Defunctis)

*Level 6*
*Josquin des Prez: Miserere Mei Deus
Ockeghem, Johannes: Missa Cuiusvis toni
Wylkynson, Robert: Salve Regina (Eton Choir Book)
Josquin des Prez: Nymphes des Bois "Déploration sur la Mort de Johannes Ockeghem"
Ockeghem, Johannes: Deo Gratias
Josquin des Prez: Mille Regretz
Josquin des Prez: Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae
Ghizeghem, Hayne van: De Tous Biens Plaine
Isaac, Heinrich: Choralis Constantinus
Josquin des Prez: Absalom, Fili Me
Josquin des Prez: El Grillo
Josquin des Prez: Pater Noster
Josquin des Prez: Ave Maria Stella
Pierre de la Rue: Missa de Sancta Anna*

I listened this morning to a couple of delightful pieces. My son was a chorister at Canterbury Cathedral and the sound, especially of the de la Rue piece, took me back to listening in the Quire. Mesmeric. Even if the meaning is a little lost on me.










Wylkynson: Salve Regina from The Eton Choir Book

Harry Christophers, The Sixteen










Pierre de La Rue: Missa de Sancta Anna

Schola Disfunctis


----------



## Mandryka

szcv,n sz,kcvs,kvc ns


----------



## Mandryka

sc.smc;lzalvc;nszavc


----------



## Chilham

Bringing this period to a close, except for other people's recommendations. If you listened to some of the more recommended works and enjoyed them, there's more, as well as new composers in Level 7 today.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Josquin des Prez - Missa Pange Lingua

*Level 4*
Josquin des Prez: Ave Maria, Gratia Plena, Dominus Tecum, Virgo Serena
Josquin des Prez: Missa l'Homme Armé super voces musicales

*Level 5*
Ockeghem, Johannes: Missa Prolationum
Ockeghem, Johannes: Requiem (Missa Pro Defunctis)

*Level 6*
Josquin des Prez: Miserere Mei Deus
Ockeghem, Johannes: Missa Cuiusvis toni
Wylkynson, Robert: Salve Regina (Eton Choir Book)
Josquin des Prez: Nymphes des Bois "Déploration sur la Mort de Johannes Ockeghem"
Ockeghem, Johannes: Deo Gratias
Josquin des Prez: Mille Regretz
Josquin des Prez: Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae
Ghizeghem, Hayne van: De Tous Biens Plaine
Isaac, Heinrich: Choralis Constantinus
Josquin des Prez: Absalom, Fili Me
Josquin des Prez: El Grillo
Josquin des Prez: Pater Noster
Josquin des Prez: Ave Maria Stella
Pierre de la Rue: Missa de Sancta Anna

*Level 7*
*Brumel, Antoine: Et Ecce Terrae Motus
Obrecht, Jacob: Missa Caput
Mouton, Jean: Nesciens Mater Virgo Virum
Josquin des Prez: Missa de Beate Virgine
Cornysh, William: Salve Regina
Browne, John: O Maria Salvatoris mater (Eton Choir Book) 
Brumel, Antoine: Missa de Beata Virgine
Agricola, Alexander: Missa in Myne Zyn 
William Cornysh: Ah, Robin
Mouton, Jean: Quaeramus Cum Pastoribus 
Cornysh, William: Ave Maria (Eton Choir Book) 
Fayrfax, Robert: Magnificat "Regale" (Eton Choir Book)
Hygons, Richard: Salve Regina (Eton Choir Book)
Isaac, Heinrich: Innsbruck, Ich Muss Dich Lassen
Lambe, Walter	Stella Caali (Eton Choir Book)
Sturton, William: Gaude Virgo Mater Christi à 6 (from the Eton Choir Book) 
Brown, John: Salve Regina (Eton Choir Book)
Paumann, Conrad: Buxheimer Orgelbuch
Paumann, Conrad: O Rosa Balla
Anon. : Deo Gratias Anglia "Agincourt Carol"
Ockeghem, Johannes: Ave Maria
Ockeghem, Johannes: Fors Seulement l'Attente
Ockeghem, Johannes: Ma Bouche Rit et Ma Pensée Pleure
Ockeghem, Johannes: Missa Caput
Ockeghem, Johannes: O Clemens, O Pia, O Dulcis
Ockeghem, Johannes: Salve Regina
Ockeghem, Johannes: Ut Heremita Solus
Tinctoris, Johannes: Missa l'Homme Armé
Martini, Johannes: J'Ay Pris Amours 
Martini, Johannes: La Martinella
Weerbeke, Gaspar van: Mater, Patris Filia
Weerbeke, Gaspar van: Quem Terra Pontus Aethera
Basiron, Philippe: Missa l'Homme Armé
Basiron, Philippe: Salve Regina
Anon. : Nova, nova! Ave fit ex Eva
Isaac, HeinrichJBenedictus
Isaac, Heinrich: 'Ay Pris Amours 
Isaac, Heinrich: Missa de Apostolis
Isaac, Heinrich: Missa Quant J'Ay au Cuer
Isaac, Heinrich: Missa Super La Spagna
Isaac, Heinrich: SS Giovanni e Paolo
Josquin des Prez: Agnus Dei II
Josquin des Prez: Benedicta es Coelorum Regina
Josquin des Prez: Christ, Fili Dei
Josquin des Prez: Gaudeamus Introit
Josquin des Prez: Ile Fantazies de Joskin
Josquin des Prez: La Bernardina
Josquin des Prez: Memor Esto Verbi Tui Servo Tuo
Josquin des Prez: Vive le Roy
Pierre de la Rue: O Salutaris Hostia
Pierre de la Rue: Requiem Mass
Obrecht, Jacob: J'Ay Pris Amours 
Obrecht, Jacob: Missa l'Homme Armé
Faugues, Guillaume: Missa l'Homme Armé
Cara, Marchetto: Mal un Muta per Effecto*

More from the Eton Choir Book for me today:










Lambe: Stella Caeli
Cornysh: Ave Maria, Mater Dei

Harry Christophers, The Sixteen

Composers born 1467-1533 coming next. Palestrina, Tallis, Lassus and lots of other good stuff.


----------



## Chilham

On to composers born 1467-1533, and our work of the week, the most recommended work of the period, is most highly recommended piece we've come across so far.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
*Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da*: *Missa Papae Marcelli*

My listening today:










Palestrina: Missa Papae Marcelli

Harry Christophers, The Sixteen


----------



## Bwv 1080

Of course it’s a myth that this piece ‘saved’ polyphony


----------



## SanAntone

Bwv 1080 said:


> Of course it's a myth that this piece 'saved' polyphony


What is not a myth is the state of perfection Palestrina brought to 16h century counterpoint.


----------



## Mandryka

That's a lot of composers with imperfect counterpoint then.


----------



## Chilham

Just one quite short piece for today, but what a gem:

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Papae Marcelli

*Level 3*
*Tallis, Thomas: Spem in Alium*

My listening today:










Tallis: Spem in Alium

Peter Phillips, Tallis Scholars

More options listed here.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> That's a lot of composers with imperfect counterpoint then.


Palestrina is among the most influential composers of all time. His contrapuntal style was codified by Johann Fux, whose book _Gradus ad Parnassum_ ("Steps to Paradise"), published in 1725, broke Palestrina's contrapuntal technique down into five types or "species" of counterpoint. Fux's work has been the bedrock of counterpoint pedagogy, making it among the most important and widest read books on music ever written. J. S. Bach held it in the highest esteem. According to Haydn's first biographer, his personal friend Georg August von Griesinger, "Haydn took infinite pains to assimilate the theory of Fux". Leopold Mozart instructed his son Wolfgang from his personal copy of Fux's _Gradus ad Parnassum_ and Mozart himself used the Gradus later in life when he himself taught. It became Beethoven's guide to composition and he used it in his own teaching as well. When Fux's tome was translated into French in 1833 and sold by subscription, the subscribers included Berlioz, Cherubini, Meyerbeer, Chopin, Rossini, Paganini, Ignaz Moscheles, Johann Nepomuk Hummel, and Liszt. Schubert, Brahms, and Bruckner all studied Palestrinan counterpoint using the original, Latin-language version of Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum.


----------



## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Palestrina is among the most influential composers of all time. His contrapuntal style was codified by Johann Fux, whose book _Gradus ad Parnassum_ ("Steps to Paradise"), published in 1725, broke Palestrina's contrapuntal technique down into five types or "species" of counterpoint. Fux's work has been the bedrock of counterpoint pedagogy, making it among the most important and widest read books on music ever written. J. S. Bach held it in the highest esteem. According to Haydn's first biographer, his personal friend Georg August von Griesinger, "Haydn took infinite pains to assimilate the theory of Fux". Leopold Mozart instructed his son Wolfgang from his personal copy of Fux's _Gradus ad Parnassum_ and Mozart himself used the Gradus later in life when he himself taught. It became Beethoven's guide to composition and he used it in his own teaching as well. When Fux's tome was translated into French in 1833 and sold by subscription, the subscribers included Berlioz, Cherubini, Meyerbeer, Chopin, Rossini, Paganini, Ignaz Moscheles, Johann Nepomuk Hummel, and Liszt. Schubert, Brahms, and Bruckner all studied Palestrinan counterpoint using the original, Latin-language version of Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum.


How do you know Bach held Fux in high esteem?


----------



## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> How do you know Bach held Fux in high esteem?


The Latin edition of Fux's _Gradus ad Parnassum_ from the year 1725 is the only surviving book of J.S. Bach's personal library of theoretical works.

More from the Bach cantatas website:



> There are perhaps three important points of contact between Johann Joseph Fux and J.S. Bach which suggest that he was a source of influence on J.S. Bach's late style and that he was regarded by contemporary commentators as a composer (as well as a theorist) of comparable significance to J.S. Bach.
> 
> A letter from Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach to J.N. Forkel of January 19, 1775 attests to J.S. Bach's preference for actual music in the teaching of composition as against 'the dry species of counterpoint that are given in Fux and others', but the same letter places Fux at the head of those (contemporary) composers whom J.S. Bach most admired: J.J. Fux, Antonio Caldara, George Frideric Handel, Reinhard Keiser, Johann Adolf Hasse, Johann Gottlieb Graun and Johann Gottlieb Graun, Jan Dismas Zelenka (a pupil of J.J. Fux's), and Franz Benda.
> 
> In 1742 a German translation of Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum (Vienna, 1725) was published by J.S. Bach's pupil Lorenz Christoph Mizler. J.S. Bach knew the Latin original well and his personal copy has survived. As Christoph Wolff and Alfred Mann have shown, the Gradus stands behind J.S. Bach's preoccupation with stile antico counterpoint in his late works, but not as a primer of strict counterpoint: it is the aesthetic of Fux's stylistic continuity (as between stile antico and stile moderno) and Fux's own prowess as a composer (to which the longer excerpts in the Gradus bear witness) that influenced J.S. Bach's conception and reintegration of antico techniques.
> 
> F.W. Marpurg's Abhandlung von der Fuge (1753-1754) advanced J.S. Bach's compositional technique as the locus classicus of fugal counterpoint: this treatise implicitly recognised Fux's practice as an important precedent for the summation of fugal discourse which Marpurg discerned in The Art of Fugue (BWV 1080). In this respect Marpurg relies not only on the Gradus but also on Fux's actual compositions (as in his quotation of 'Christe eleison' from the Missa canonica). This usage deserves to be distinguished from the long afterlife which Fux's Gradus enjoyed both as a composition manual and as the source of various treatises based more or less directly upon it. Johann Mattheson remarked in Der vollkommene Capellmeister (1739) that the great fugal masters known to him were J.S. Bach, J.J. Fux, G.F. Handel, Johann Krieger (1652-1735), Johann Kuhnau, Johann Theile (1646-1724), Georg Philipp Telemann, and Johann Gottfried Walther. It is clear that Fux belonged to this distinguished gathering not as a theorist but as a composer, especially given J. Mattheson's favourable account of his choral writing and his chamber duet style. J.A. Scheibe likewise, in Der critische Musikus (1745), ranked J.J. Fux alongside J.S. Bach, G.F. Handel, G.P. Telemann, and others as a composer whose command of Italian style was combined with mathematical exactitude.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> How do you know Bach held Fux in high esteem?


its why he had so many children <snare hit>


----------



## pianozach

'Bout Time.

*#44*

https://www.talkclassical.com/70102-beginners-guide-classical-music-9.html#post2074747

https://www.talkclassical.com/70102-beginners-guide-classical-music-9.html#post2074747


----------



## Chilham

pianozach said:


> 'Bout Time.
> 
> *#44*
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/70102-beginners-guide-classical-music-9.html#post2074747
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/70102-beginners-guide-classical-music-9.html#post2074747


Damn! I looked but must have missed it.


----------



## SanAntone

pianozach said:


> 'Bout Time.
> 
> *#44*
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/70102-beginners-guide-classical-music-9.html#post2074747
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/70102-beginners-guide-classical-music-9.html#post2074747


If you had approached me with this list I would have been turned off to Classical music as soon as I heard The Planets. If I were to continue with Dvorak Symphony, "New World" - it would have sealed the deal that CM was not for me if these were the first two works offered. Beethoven's 3rd is OK, then a step backwards with The Firebird - but when you suggest the 1812 Overture - I'm out.

Which is why I have never thought these kinds of lists useful. Inevitably they offer up the most popular, famous, but trite and least interesting, examples of Classical music. At least to me.

I love Early music, Renaissance polyphony especially, but not _Spem in Alium_ - which is famous, but utterly of no interest to me and not a work from this period I think deserves mentioning much less recommending.

I am so grateful that no one approached me with the instincts that are driving this thread and the Beginner's Guide thread. Otherwise I might have never gotten very far into Classical music.


----------



## Chilham

SanAntone said:


> ... I have never thought these kinds of lists useful. Inevitably they offer up the most popular, famous, but trite and least interesting, examples of Classical music. At least to me.....


I'm sorry you see no value in this thread. I think this is the fifth time you've taken the time to explain that, despite almost everything you've asked for (de Vitry, Obrecht, Ogkeghem, and others) being included here.

I'm sorry that you don't enjoy Spem in Alium. I enjoyed it very much.


----------



## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> its why he had so many children <snare hit>


I've never studied counterpoint and so I've never read Fux.

However my understanding of Fux's work is just this: it is a set of rules. Some things are not allowed, some things are. So counterpoint becomes a bit like football. People who respected Fux's system would get no red cards - unless from time to time they had, to quote Boulez, _local indiscipline_: brief moments where they can decide to reject the overarching system.

Now, assuming that I'm not completely misunderstanding things, let me ask three specific question to help me see whether there's anything important going on this little discussion.

1. In Fuxian counterpoint, are there any "moves in the game" which were permitted in, say, Lassus or Gesualdo or Ockegham, which have become excluded?

2. Are there many examples of Bach's counterpoint which would have been disallowed in some way in the Fuxian system.

3. In Bach's major contrapuntal music, AoF etc, is there any counterpoint which Palestrina would have found surprising? And if yes, is there anything new in AoF? Or is it just a systematic presentation of concepts already well understood and accepted?


----------



## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> I've never studied counterpoint and so I've never read Fux.
> 
> However my understanding of Fux's work is just this: it is a set of rules. Some things are not allowed, some things are. So counterpoint becomes a bit like football. People who respected Fux's system would get no red cards - unless from time to time they had, to quote Boulez, _local indiscipline_: brief moments where they can decide to reject the overarching system.
> 
> Now, assuming that I'm not completely misunderstanding things. let me ask two specific question to help me see whether there's anything important going on this little discussion.
> 
> 1. In Fuxian counterpoint, are there any "moves in the game" which were permitted in, say, Lassus or Gesualdo or Ockegham, which have become excluded?
> 
> 2. Are there many examples of Bach's counterpoint which would have been disallowed in some way in the Fuxian system.
> 
> 3. In Bach's major contrapuntal music, AoF etc, is there any counterpoint which Palestrina would have found surprising? And if yes, is there anything new in AoF? Or is it just a systematic presentation of concepts already well understood and accepted?


I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of Fux's book. First, it is descriptive, i.e. he analyzed the music of Palestrina and constructed exercises for a student to solve in the manner of Palestrina. So the "rules" are really what Palestrina did, did not do, and in general guidelines on how to duplicate counterpoint in the style of Palestrina.

The primary purpose of the book is to teach beginners the discipline of writing 16th century counterpoint in the style of Palestrina. Bach wrote 18th century counterpoint, and there are books that teach this style which is different.


----------



## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of Fux's book. First, it is descriptive, i.e. he analyzed the music of Palestrina and constructed exercises for a student to solve in the manner of Palestrina. So the "rules" are really what Palestrina did, did not do, and in general guidelines on how to duplicate counterpoint in the style of Palestrina.
> 
> The primary purpose of the book is to teach beginners the discipline of writing 16th century counterpoint in the style of Palestrina. Bach wrote 18th century counterpoint, and there are books that teach this style which is different.


So when people say that Bach "held Fux in high esteem", are they just saying that he appreciated his book as a pedagogic tool? I thought they were they saying that Bach thought that Palestrina's way of writing counterpoint, as recorded by Fux, encapsulates the best principles for constructing counterpoint. Don't forget the context of this was my reaction to your claim that Palestrina (in some as yet undefined way) "perfected" counterpoint.

You know, you may give your student an exercise because it gets them thinking, but completely dispense with the ideas in the exercise yourself when making your own creative work.

(I have a friend who teaches a course on Fuxian counterpoint here in London, and he says the students love it -- it's like a fun puzzle for them!)


----------



## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> So when people say that Bach "held Fux in high esteem", are they just saying that he appreciated his book as a pedagogic tool? I thought they were they saying that Bach thought that Palestrina's way of writing counterpoint, as recorded by Fux, encapsulates the best principles for constructing counterpoint. Don't forget the context of this was my reaction to your claim that Palestrina (in some as yet undefined way) "perfected" counterpoint.
> 
> You know, you may give your student an exercise because it gets them thinking, but completely dispense with the ideas in the exercise yourself when making your own creative work.
> 
> (I have a friend who teaches a course on Fuxian counterpoint here in London, and he says the students love it -- it's like a fun puzzle for them!)


Bach held Fux in high esteem as a composer, whose music exemplified the principles covered in his treatise on counterpoint. It is assumed that Bach thought highly of the book since he preserved a copy and had one of his students translate it, and probably used it for teaching although mostly he taught from existing compositions.

My comment about Palestrina bringing 16th century counterpoint to perfection was meant to say he brought that style to its highest manifestation. Which is why his style was used by Fux, i.e. it was the most disciplined, illustrative, and generally the best example of that kind of music for a pedagogical purpose.

The same can be said of Mozart, that he brought the Classical style to perfection.


----------



## new but obsessed

pianozach said:


> 'Bout Time.
> 
> *#44*
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/70102-beginners-guide-classical-music-9.html#post2074747
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/70102-beginners-guide-classical-music-9.html#post2074747


Really enjoying this track. I've only had the time to keep up with the higher level recommendations from this thread, and this recording is the first since the Missa Pange Lingua and the Dufay Missa L'homme Arme that will be keepers in my rotation.

Not sure if it has anything to do with the composers, the era of the music, or if I just like the voices and recording quality of the Tallis Scholars.

Also love that with this track I'm killing two birds with one stone going through this list and Pianozach's (where I'm still only on #4)!

(I've generally tried to find the recordings that Chilham has listed).


----------



## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> Bach held Fux in high esteem as a composer, whose music exemplified the principles covered in his treatise on counterpoint. It is assumed that Bach thought highly of the book since he preserved a copy and had one of his students translate it, and probably used it for teaching although mostly he taught from existing compositions.
> 
> My comment about Palestrina bringing 16th century counterpoint to perfection was meant to say he brought that style to its highest manifestation. Which is why his style was used by Fux, i.e. it was the most disciplined, illustrative, and generally the best example of that kind of music for a pedagogical purpose.
> 
> The same can be said of Mozart, that he brought the Classical style to perfection.


Well I just report that so far I haven't found Palestrina's music very interesting to hear -- but I like many of the contrapuntal composers who preceded him. I guess I don't like perfection!


----------



## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> Well I just report that so far I haven't found Palestrina's music very interesting to hear -- but I like many of the contrapuntal composers who preceded him. I guess I don't like perfection!


Maybe perfection is not the right word. I mean he brought the style to its logical fruition.

All of the composers leading up to Palestrina were exponents of some aspects of the 16th century style, maybe in a less succinct or economic manner. With Palestrina these stylistic strands coalesced into the quintessential example of polyphony from his time. Primarily textural transparency and setting of the text were the aspects Palestrina mastered. His music is very conservative, i.e. nothing sticks out, no odd intervalic leaps, everything is ordered and meant to convey the text, which is "holy" in a manner suitable for performance at the Vatican.

It could be be that you prefer earlier composers because their style is a bit rougher around the edges.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> So when people say that Bach "held Fux in high esteem", are they just saying that he appreciated his book as a pedagogic tool? I thought they were they saying that Bach thought that Palestrina's way of writing counterpoint, as recorded by Fux, encapsulates the best principles for constructing counterpoint. Don't forget the context of this was my reaction to your claim that Palestrina (in some as yet undefined way) "perfected" counterpoint.
> 
> You know, you may give your student an exercise because it gets them thinking, but completely dispense with the ideas in the exercise yourself when making your own creative work.
> 
> (I have a friend who teaches a course on Fuxian counterpoint here in London, and he says the students love it -- it's like a fun puzzle for them!)


Definitely find dissonances in Bach that are outside of Renaissance practice - you only began to hear the common dom 7 chord cadence in Baroque music, the Baroque is also where the dim 7 chord appears

Renaissance music did not really have the concept of chords, which appeared in the baroque


----------



## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> Maybe perfection is not the right word. I mean he brought the style to its logical fruition.
> 
> All of the composers leading up to Palestrina were exponents of some aspects of the 16th century style, maybe in a less succinct or economic manner. With Palestrina these stylistic strands coalesced into the quintessential example of polyphony from his time. Primarily textural transparency and setting of the text were the aspects Palestrina mastered. His music is very conservative, i.e. nothing sticks out, no odd intervalic leaps, everything is ordered and meant to convey the text, which is "holy" in a manner suitable for performance at the Vatican.
> 
> It could be be that you prefer earlier composers because their style is a bit rougher around the edges.


Sure. This isn't the place to continue the discussion, which I find really interesting. If we were to continue, I'd want to understand what "logical" means in this context. But, let's not dominate Chilham's thread -- he's probably itching to move on in his list.


----------



## new but obsessed

Mandryka said:


> Sure. This isn't the place to continue the discussion, which I find really interesting. If we were to continue, I'd want to understand what "logical" means in this context. But, let's not dominate Chilham's thread -- he's probably itching to move on in his list.


I, for one, find both of your posts and discussions like these in general to be quite illuminating and interesting. It certainly helps me contextualize what I'm hearing, put descriptive terms to things I can sense but don't fully grasp, to see their place in history, and to go beyond "that recording sounds pretty" which is where I often find myself.

It's why I came to TC -- to move beyond listening to this music in a vacuum.

Thumbs up from me!


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Sure. This isn't the place to continue the discussion, which I find really interesting. If we were to continue, I'd want to understand what "logical" means in this context. But, let's not dominate Chilham's thread -- he's probably itching to move on in his list.


If you're talking about the music, I have no problem.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Papae Marcelli

*Level 3*
Tallis, Thomas: Spem in Alium

*Level 4*
No works

*Level 5*
*Lassus, Orlande de: Lagrime di San Pietro
Tallis, Thomas: If Ye Love Me
Tallis, Thomas: Cantiones Ab Fual Argumento Sacrae Vocantur*

My listening today:










Lassus: Lagrime di San Pietro

Bo Holten, Ara Nova










Tallis: Cantiones Sacrae

David Skinner, Alamire










Tallis: If Ye Love Me

Peter Phillips, Tallis Scholars

More Lassus options listed here.


----------



## Mandryka

Peter Sellars did a dance based production to accompany Lassus's Lagrime. I saw it and really enjoyed it - it's my sort of thing! Anyway, I think his introduction is well worth hearing, whether or not you're turned on by movement.






J S Bach wrote a musical presentation of St Peter's tears in his passions. It's interesting to compare and contrast.

Lassus was making music at the same time as Palestrina. I wonder if you will enjoy one of them more than the other.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Peter Sellars did a dance based production to accompany Lassus's Lagrime. I saw it and really enjoyed it - it's my sort of thing! Anyway, I think his introduction is well worth hearing, whether or not you're turned on by movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J S Bach wrote a musical presentation of St Peter's tears in his passions. It's interesting to compare and contrast.
> 
> Lassus was making music at the same time as Palestrina. I wonder if you will enjoy one of them more than the other.


Fascinating. ....


----------



## new but obsessed

Oh man. Prior to the pandemic, I was very fortunate to be on the "Show Corp" of volunteers at the 2019 Telluride Film Festival. And I had no idea about classical music or anything, but this fireball of a man, Peter Sellars, gave all of us volunteers the most enervating welcome talk to the fest. He was the self-styled head cheerleader of the volunteers.

And he was around the entire weekend chatting it up with everyone, saying hello to everyone, giving out hugs (back when that was allowed!), and was just the biggest ball of energy. I think I had one such brief interaction with him, and it was a blast.

And I had no idea who he was --- I thought he was just one of the OG volunteers who'd known the founders 40 years prior and was just this goofy charismatic guy -- he just seemed to be having too much fun to be anyone "important". Only years later (actually, only just a few weeks ago) did I learn that he was a significant theater director! But first impressions last, and I'll always remember him as the single most entertaining person at that wonderful film festival.


----------



## Chilham

More Tallis, Palestrina and Lassus today, plus some new composers.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Papae Marcelli

*Level 3*
Tallis, Thomas: Spem in Alium

*Level 4*
No works

*Level 5*
Lassus, Orlande de: Lagrime di San Pietro
Tallis, Thomas: If Ye Love Me
Tallis, Thomas: Cantiones Ab Fual Argumento Sacrae Vocantu

*Level 6*
*Tallis, Thomas: Lamentations of Jeremiah
Lassus, Orlande de: Psalmi Davidis Poenitentiales
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Canticum Canticorum
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Stabat Mater
Taverner, John: Western Wynde Mass 
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Brevis
Janequin, Clément: Le Bataille de Marignan
Taverner, John: Missa Gloria Tibi Trinitas
Arcadelt, Jacques: Primo libro de madrigali
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: O Magnum Mysterium 
Janequin, Clément: Le Chant des Oyseux
Taverner, John: Dum Transisset Sabbatum
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa l'Homme Armé
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Liber Primus
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Vestiva I Colli
Gabrieli, Andrea: Canzoni alla Francese per Sonar Sopra Stromenti da Tasti
Lassus, Orlande de: Il Primo Libro Dove si Contengono Madrigali Vilanesche Canzoni Francesi e Motetti a Quattro Voce
Lassus, Orlande de: Magnum Opus Musicum
Lassus, Orlande de: Matona, Mia Cara*

A lot of new listening for me today, although I got a head start on some of it last night:










Janequin: Le Guerre

The Sixteen










Lassus: Psalmi Davidis Poenitentialis

Collegium Vocale Gent, Philippe Herreweghe










Palestrina: Stanze Sopra la Vergine Il primo Libro de Madrigali a Cinque Voci

Hilliard Ensemble










Palestrina: Missa Bravis

Peter Phillips, Tallis Scholars










Taverner: Western Wynde Mass

Andrew Parrott & Taverner Choir


----------



## Mandryka

The Arcadelt is a great favourite of mine.


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> ... I've only had the time to keep up with the higher level recommendations from this thread...


I think that's a good thing.

I've previously listened, over the past eighteen months, to most works included in Levels 1-5. As we go through I'm listening for the first time to pieces in the top half of Level 6, works that received three recommendations. I will listen to just a very selected few below that, usually based on whether I have them in my collection as they came 'coupled' with pieces more highly recommended, or based on suggestions from other posters.

Pick your level based on your time and appetite for the music of the period, dive deeper if you especially like a particular composer or want to explore further.


----------



## EdwardBast

Bwv 1080 said:


> Definitely find dissonances in Bach that are outside of Renaissance practice - you only began to hear the common dom 7 chord cadence in Baroque music, the Baroque is also where the dim 7 chord appears
> 
> *Renaissance music did not really have the concept of chords, which appeared in the baroque*


This apparently isn't true. Zarlino, in his Istitutione harmoniche III, The Art of Counterpoint (1558) describes (what we would call) full triads in root position and first inversion as perfect harmonies which the composer should strive to use whenever possible in writing counterpoint. He was codifying the practice of the preceding generation.


----------



## SanAntone

EdwardBast said:


> This apparently isn't true. Zarlino, in his Istitutione harmoniche III, The Art of Counterpoint (1558) describes (what we would call) full triads in root position and first inversion as perfect harmonies which the composer should strive to use whenever possible in writing counterpoint. He was codifying the practice of the preceding generation.


What you are missing is that there were no full scores in the Medieval and Renaissance. Composers wrote out each individual part, on sections of pages in a large choir manuscript.

Part 1 | Part 3
Part 2 | Part 4

The singers would gather around the book and sing their individual parts. It was completely linear, any harmonic coincidences were the result of the lines coming together, not conceived of as "chords" by the composer.


----------



## Mandryka

lkascjlz;svcns\zlv nmjxs\z


----------



## pianozach

Mandryka said:


> lkascjlz;svcns\zlv nmjxs\z


Time to see the doctor.

You may be having a stroke.


----------



## Chilham

I enjoyed both the Lassus Psalmi Davidis Poenitentiales and Taverner Western Wynde Mass yesterday.

Time to wrap-up the period. I do wonder about the value of sharing such a long list of works like this but if a thing's worth doing .... Just a caution that the list of works at Level 7, those that received just a single recommendation from my research, is not 'curated' so may contain errors. The works towards the top of the listing in Level 7 are those that I have identified as being included within our Talk Classical Favourite and Most Highly Recommended Works. There may be others. The rest are listed by composer. If there are hidden gems here, please tell us.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Papae Marcelli

*Level 3*
Tallis, Thomas: Spem in Alium

*Level 4*
No works

*Level 5*
Lassus, Orlande de: Lagrime di San Pietro
Tallis, Thomas: If Ye Love Me
Tallis, Thomas: Cantiones Ab Fual Argumento Sacrae Vocantu

*Level 6*
Tallis, Thomas: Lamentations of Jeremiah
Lassus, Orlande de: Psalmi Davidis Poenitentiales
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Canticum Canticorum
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Stabat Mater
Taverner, John: Western Wynde Mass 
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Brevis
Janequin, Clément: Le Bataille de Marignan
Taverner, John: Missa Gloria Tibi Trinitas
Arcadelt, Jacques: Primo libro de madrigali
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: O Magnum Mysterium 
Janequin, Clément: Le Chant des Oyseux
Taverner, John: Dum Transisset Sabbatum
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa l'Homme Armé
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Liber Primus
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Vestiva I Colli
Gabrieli, Andrea: Canzoni alla Francese per Sonar Sopra Stromenti da Tasti
Lassus, Orlande de: Il Primo Libro Dove si Contengono Madrigali Vilanesche Canzoni Francesi e Motetti a Quattro Voce
Lassus, Orlande de: Magnum Opus Musicum
Lassus, Orlande de: Matona, Mia Cara

*Level 7*
Lassus, Orlando de: Prophetiae Sibyllarum	
Lassus, Orlande de: Lamentations of Jeremiah	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: The Lamentations of Jeremiah Lessons 1-3	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa "Benedictus Es"	
Lassus, Orlande de: Missa Bell' Amfitrit'altera	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Super Ut Re Mi Fa Sol La	
Gombert, Nicolas: Musae Jovis	
Sheppard, John: Gaude gaude gaude Maria	
Milano, Francesco Canova da: Fantasias for Lute 
Févin, Antoine de: Missa Super Ave Maria	
Tallis, Thomas: Mass for Four Voices	
Japart, Jean: J'Ay Pris Amours 
Verdelot, Philippe: Quanto Sia Liet' il Giorno	
Flecha, Mateo: Ensaladas	
Buchner, Hans: Fundamentbuch	
Jacquet of Mantua: Repleatur os meum laude tua	
Luther, Martin: Ein Feste Ist Unser Gott	
Janequin, Clément: Or Sus Vous Dormez Trop	
Janequin, Clément: 19 chansons nouvelles a quatre parties esp. Livre 8, No. 4: Il estoit une fillette
Janequin, Clément: La Chasse	
Janequin, Clément: Le Chant de l'Alouette	
Mahu, Stephan: Ein Feste Ist Unser Gott	
Agricola, Martin: Ein' Feste Burg Ist Unser Gott	
Sennfl, Ludwig: A Un Giro Sol Setting	
Sennfl, Ludwig: Ave Maria … Virgo Serena	
Sennfl, Ludwig: Lust Hab Ich Ghabt Zuer Musica	
Claudin de Sermisy: Tant Que Vivray	
Narváez, Luis de: Los Seys Libros del Delphin	
Narváez, Luis de: Music for Vihuela	
Taverner, John: Benedictus	
Wilaert, Adrian: Missa Queeramus cum Pastoribus	
Willaert, Adrian: Benedicta es Coelorum Regina	
Ganassi, Sylvestro: Regola Rubertina	
Ghiselin, Johannes: La Alfonsina	
Benedictus Ducis: Ein Lämmlein geht und trägt die Schuld	
Sachs, Hans: Silberweise	
Gombert, Nicolas: In Illo Tempore Loquente Jesu ad Turbas	
Greiter, Matthias: Fortuna Desperata	
Francesco di Milano: Ricercars	
Osiander, Andreas: Christ Lag in Todesbanden	
Buus, Jacques: Ricecar No. 1	
Buus, Jacques: Ricecar No. 4	
Morales, Cristòbal de: Parce Mihi Domine 
Morales, Cristòbal de: Missa l'Homme Armé	
Morales, Cristòbal de: Requiem	
Wilder, Philip van: Pater Noster, qui es in caelis 
Tallis, Thomas: Laudate Dominum	
Tallis, Thomas: Canon on Ravenscroft's Psalter	
Tallis, Thomas: Sancte Deus	
Tallis, Thomas: Videte Miraculum	
Tallis, Thomas: 9 Psalm Tunes for Archbishop Parker's Psalter esp. No. 3. Why fum'th in fight 
Tallis, Thomas: Puer Natus est Nobis	
Tye, Christopher: The Actes of the Apostles	
Tye, Christopher: Euge Bone Mass	
Arcadelt, Jacques: Margot Labourez les Vignes	
Ruffo, Vincenzo: Missae Quatuor Concinate ad Ritum Concili Mediolani	
Clemens non Papa, Jacobus: In Te, Domine, Speravi	
Clemens non Papa, Jacobus: Musica Dei Donum	
Clemens non Papa, Jacobus: Qui Consolabateur Me Recessit a Me	
Clemens non Papa, Jacobus: Souterliedekens	
Mudarra, Alonso: 3 Libros de Musica	
Ortiz, Diego: Recercada Segunda	
Cipriano de Rore: Da le belle contrade d'oriente	
Sheppard, John: Libera Nos	
Sheppard, John: In Manus Tuas	
Arbeau, Thoinot: Orchésographie	
Tabourot, Jehan: Ding, Dong, Merrily on High	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Dies Sanctificatus	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Fons Bonitatis	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Liber Secunds	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Hodie Beata Virgo	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Liber Tertius	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Repleatur os Meum Laude	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Motet - Sicut Cervus	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Such Beauty, My Beloved (Orgi Belta)	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Tui Sunt Coeli	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Veni Sponsa Christi	
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Assumpta Est Maria	
Guerrero, Francisco: Maria Magdelena	
Gabrieli, Andrea: Aria della Battaglia	
Gabrieli, Andrea: Canzona Incipit	
Gabrieli, Andrea: Magnificat for 3 choirs and orchestra	
Gabrieli, Andrea: Psalmi Davidici	
Lassus, Orlande de: Bon Jour Mon Cœur	
Lassus, Orlande de: Alma Redemptoris Mater	
Lassus, Orlande de: Audite Nova	
Lassus, Orlande de: Beatus Vir	
Lassus, Orlande de: Elle s'en Va de Moy	
Lassus, Orlande de: Je l'Ayme Bien	
Lassus, Orlande de: Missa Surge Propera	
Lassus, Orlande de: Motets	inc. Adoremus te, Christe, Tristis est Anima Mea, In Hora Ultima
Lassus, Orlande de: O là o Che Bon Eccho

Just a few mostly short pieces planned for my listening today:










Palestrina: Missa Assumpta est Maria

Peter Phillips, Tallis Scholars










Morales: Parce Midi Domine

Jan Garbaraek, Hilliard Ensemble










Arcadelt: Margot Labourez les Vignes
Lassus: Bon Jour Mon Cour

The King's Singers










Janequin: 19 chansons nouvelles a quatre parties, Livre 8, No. 4: Il estoit une fillette

Capella de la Torre, Katharina Bauml

Composers born 1533-1567 starts tomorrow; Monteverdi, Dowland, Byrd, Victoria, Gabreli, Gesualdo, Caccini, Morley, Sweelink .... Too much goodness for one week in my opinion as some of my favourite composers included there, but what can you do? So much great music everywhere!


----------



## EdwardBast

SanAntone said:


> What you are missing is that there were no full scores in the Medieval and Renaissance. Composers wrote out each individual part, on sections of pages in a large choir manuscript.
> 
> Part 1 | Part 3
> Part 2 | Part 4
> 
> The singers would gather around the book and sing their individual parts. It was completely linear, any harmonic coincidences were the result of the lines coming together, not conceived of as "chords" by the composer.


I'm a musicologist who has studied this music and the theory treatises about it, and I've written motets in this style. What you're missing - well, a part of what you're missing - is that the way parts were written for performance has nothing to do with how they were composed. Your conclusions are wholly incorrect. Composers could compose at a keyboard or on erasable slates before copying parts. And in theory treatises they wrote examples in score format. In the Renaissance composers definitely were aware of the chords resulting from all the parts they were writing, as is clear from the writing of theorist/composers like Gioseffo Zarlino, a student of Adrian Willaert, who wrote:

"A composition may be called truly perfect when, in every change of *chord*, ascending or descending, there are heard all of those consonances whose components give a variety of sound. Where such consonances are heard, the *harmony* is truly perfect. Now these consonances that offer diversity to the ear are the fifth and third or their compounds. … Since harmony is a unity of diverse elements, we must strive with all our might, in order to achieve perfect harmony, to have those two consonances or their compounds sound in our compositions as much as possible. True, musicians often write the sixth in place of the fifth, and this is fine."

For those who don't know theory, what Zarlino has described here as perfect harmonies are what we call triads in root position and first inversion - that is, most of the same basic harmonic vocabulary as was used by early Baroque composers. He goes on to explain that one cannot always write perfect harmonies in three-part counterpoint, where sometimes an octave must be used in place of the third or fifth "to preserve a beautiful, elegant, and simple voice line … but to deprive compositions in four parts of one of these consonances is shameful …"*

*_The Art of Counterpoint_, Part Three of _Le Istitutioni harmoniche_, 1558, trans. Guy Marco and Claude Palisca (New York: Norton, 1968), 187-88. Emphases above are mine.


----------



## hammeredklavier

EdwardBast said:


> In the Renaissance composers definitely were aware of the chords resulting from all the parts they were writing, as is clear from the writing of theorist/composers like Gioseffo Zarlino, a student of Adrian Willaert, who wrote:
> "A composition may be called truly perfect when, in every change of *chord*, ascending or descending, there are heard all of those consonances whose components give a variety of sound. Where such consonances are heard, the *harmony* is truly perfect. .......


I wish MR was here to see this.


----------



## Chilham

Composers born 1533-1567. What's our 'Work of the Week'?

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
*Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Orfeo*

I was surprised. I thought another Monteverdi work would take the accolade. I was wrong.

My listening today. I've been looking forward to this all week:










Monteverdi: l'Orfeo

Jordi Savall, Montserrat Figueras, Furio Zanasi, Arianna Savall, Sara Mingardo, Carlos Mena, Gerd Türk, Le Concert des Nations, La Capella Reial de Catalunya


----------



## SanAntone

EdwardBast said:


> I'm a musicologist who has studied this music and the theory treatises about it, and I've written motets in this style. What you're missing - well, a part of what you're missing - is that the way parts were written for performance has nothing to do with how they were composed. Your conclusions are wholly incorrect. Composers could compose at a keyboard or on erasable slates before copying parts. And in theory treatises they wrote examples in score format. In the Renaissance composers definitely were aware of the chords resulting from all the parts they were writing, as is clear from the writing of theorist/composers like Gioseffo Zarlino, a student of Adrian Willaert, who wrote:
> 
> "A composition may be called truly perfect when, in every change of *chord*, ascending or descending, there are heard all of those consonances whose components give a variety of sound. Where such consonances are heard, the *harmony* is truly perfect. Now these consonances that offer diversity to the ear are the fifth and third or their compounds. … Since harmony is a unity of diverse elements, we must strive with all our might, in order to achieve perfect harmony, to have those two consonances or their compounds sound in our compositions as much as possible. True, musicians often write the sixth in place of the fifth, and this is fine."
> 
> For those who don't know theory, what Zarlino has described here as perfect harmonies are what we call triads in root position and first inversion - that is, most of the same basic harmonic vocabulary as was used by early Baroque composers. He goes on to explain that one cannot always write perfect harmonies in three-part counterpoint, where sometimes an octave must be used in place of the third or fifth "to preserve a beautiful, elegant, and simple voice line … but to deprive compositions in four parts of one of these consonances is shameful …"*
> 
> *_The Art of Counterpoint_, Part Three of _Le Istitutioni harmoniche_, 1558, trans. Guy Marco and Claude Palisca (New York: Norton, 1968), 187-88. Emphases above are mine.


Those texts were written a century at least after the music was composed. They reflect the thinking of a much later period, not the thinking of a *Medieval* composer. I will say that during the late Renaissance things began to move more to a vertical thinking - but I was speaking of Medieval and early-middle Renaissance.

Early polyphony was a performance practice, not even notated until later - and conventions about adding parts to monophonic chant involved the production of consonant intervals. To add a third voice the same principle applied, making that the lines compared to each other, not necessarily looking at all three together, did not produce dissonant intervals. There was no conception of "triads" or "chords" (i.e. with names) just intervals. This remained to be the case for 300 hundred years, roughly from the 12th through the 15th century.

One thing that bothers me is an attempt to read-into early music music concepts and especially "tonal" aspects which only developed later.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Composers born 1533-1567. What's our 'Work of the Week'?
> 
> *Level 1*
> No works
> 
> *Level 2*
> No works
> 
> *Level 3*
> *Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Orfeo*
> 
> I was surprised. I thought another Monteverdi work would take the accolade. I was wrong.
> 
> My listening today. I've been looking forward to this all week:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Monteverdi: l'Orfeo
> 
> Jordi Savall, Montserrat Figueras, Furio Zanasi, Arianna Savall, Sara Mingardo, Carlos Mena, Gerd Türk, Le Concert des Nations, La Capella Reial de Catalunya


You may find that you have a different take on the opera if you see it -- Savall made a video recording. On the other hand this is one I remember enjoying


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Willaert, Adrian: Benedicta es Coelorum Regina
> !


Lovely thing before the caesura, and normally I don't enjoy Willaert's church music much.


----------



## EdwardBast

SanAntone said:


> Those texts were written a century at least after the music was composed. They reflect the thinking of a much later period, not the thinking of a Medieval composer. I will say that during the late Renaissance things began to move more to a vertical thinking - *but I was speaking of Medieval and early-middle Renaissance*.
> 
> Early polyphony was a performance practice, not even notated until later - and conventions about adding parts to monophonic chant involved the production of consonant intervals. *To add a third voice the same principle applied, making that the lines compared to each other, not necessarily looking at all three together, did not produce dissonant intervals. There was no conception of "triads" or "chords" (i.e. with names) just intervals.* This remained to be the case for 300 hundred years, roughly from the 12th through the 15th century.
> 
> One thing that bothers me is an attempt to read-into early music music concepts and especially "tonal" aspects which only developed later.


We weren't. The conversation you entered was about Renaissance music, not medieval. The treatise I cited is codifying music of the early 16thc, right in the middle of the Renaissance and it certainly applies to Josquin, a quintessential middle Renaissance composer. But even in the early Renaissance what Zarlino said holds pretty well. What do you think the new English sound was all about? Essentially, triadic consonance.

The second bold passage isn't correct or else you've misstated it. If indeed "the lines compared to each other … did not produce dissonant intervals," you would by definition be talking about triadic language because the octave, fifth, third, sixth, and their compounds, the components of Zarlino's perfect harmonies, comprise all of the available consonances. Medieval dissonance treatment tended to favor perfect consonances on strong beats but all kinds of dissonance was possible in between because while each line was made consonant with the tenor, the additional voices weren't necessarily made consonant with each other.


----------



## SanAntone

EdwardBast said:


> We weren't. The conversation you entered was about Renaissance music, not medieval. The treatise I cited is codifying music of the early 16thc, right in the middle of the Renaissance and it certainly applies to Josquin. But even in the early Renaissance what Zarlino said holds pretty well. What do you think the new English sound was all about? Essentially, triadic consonance.


I wasn't aware that the conversation was limited to the Renaissance. In any event, Zarlino is writing long after the fact and if he is attributing to Josquin concepts which were not in common use until much later, the same problem exists. Zarlino is describing the music in terminology current with his time not the time of when it was composed. I am not even convinced that a composer such as Palestrina thought in terms of diatonic triads.



> The second bold passage isn't correct or else you've misstated it. If indeed "the lines compared to each other … did not produce dissonant intervals," you would by definition be talking about triadic language because the octave, fifth, third, sixth, and their compounds, the components of Zarlino's perfect harmonies, comprise all of the available consonances. Medieval dissonance treatment tended to *favor perfect consonances on strong beats but all kinds of dissonance was possible in between because while each line was made consonant with the tenor, the additional voices weren't necessarily made consonant with each other.*




Agreed. I was speaking of note against note polyphony, which when it grew into contrary motion and more florid singing there were seconds and other non perfect intervals produced such as thirds and even sixths. But again, these composers had no knowledge of fuctiocnal harmony, nor even diatonic triads, and instead even late Renaissance composers thought of triads as anything more than vertical coincidences.

If you are trying to claim that functional harmony existed in the Renaissance I think you would be incorrect.


----------



## EdwardBast

SanAntone said:


> I wasn't aware that the conversation was limited to the Renaissance. In any event, Zarlino is writing long after the fact and if he is attributing to Josquin concepts which were not in common use until much later, the same problem exists. Zarlino is describing the music in terminology current with his time not the time of when it was composed. I am not even convinced that a composer such as Palestrina thought in terms of diatonic triads.


Long after what fact? BWV1080 cited Renaissance music. I responded about Renaissance music citing a theorist writing about music of the first half of the 16thc. Then you complained that what I said wasn't true of Medieval music.  A total non sequitur. When your error was pointed out you should have just bowed out and said you misunderstood what was under discussion.

Obviously, none of the people you mentioned used the term diatonic triad. (You are the only person who used that term.) But what we call the triad was the basis of the vertical sonorities all of them used and which were the inevitable result of their methods of dissonance treatment. The dissonance treatment Zarlino describes is perfectly applicable to the music of Josquin. All one has to do is use one ears to hear this.



SanAntone said:


> greed. I was speaking of note against note polyphony, which when it grew into contrary motion and more florid singing there were seconds and other non perfect intervals produced such as thirds and even sixths. *But again, these composers had no knowledge of fuctiocnal harmony,* nor even diatonic triads, and instead even late Renaissance composers thought of triads as anything more than vertical coincidences.


What do you mean "But *again* these composers had no knowledge of functional harmony." No one in this discussion mentioned or implied anything about functional harmony until you just tried to shoehorn it in, implying I was arguing for an anachronistic concept. Nice try.



SanAntone said:


> If you are trying to claim that functional harmony existed in the Renaissance I think you would be incorrect.


Oh Jeezus.  Nowhere in anything I wrote is there anything remotely like a claim for functional harmony.


----------



## SanAntone

EdwardBast said:


> Long after what fact? BWV1080 cited Renaissance music. I responded about Renaissance music citing a theorist writing about music of the first half of the 16thc. Then you complained that what I said wasn't true of Medieval music.  A total non sequitur. When your error was pointed out you should have just bowed out and said you misunderstood what was under discussion.
> 
> Obviously, none of the people you mentioned used the term diatonic triad. (You are the only person who used that term.) But what we call the triad was the basis of the vertical sonorities all of them used and which were the inevitable result of their methods of dissonance treatment. The dissonance treatment Zarlino describes is perfectly applicable to the music of Josquin. All one has to do is use one ears to hear this.
> 
> What do you mean "But *again* these composers had no knowledge of functional harmony." No one in this discussion mentioned or implied anything about functional harmony until you just tried to shoehorn it in, implying I was arguing for an anachronistic concept. Nice try.
> 
> Oh Jeezus.  Nowhere in anything I wrote is there anything remotely like a claim for functional harmony.


I don't know who translated Zarlino, but I doubt that he actually wrote the words "chord" or "triad" since those terms originate from within a context of diatonic harmony. At the very least, the terms chord and triad imply vertical thinking, which I think is inappropriate for Josquin and all the Medieval/Renaissance composers, who thought linearly, not vertically. If that was what you wished to claim, that Renaissance composers thought vertically, then I disagree. They were aware of the vertical coincidences, but saw them as just that - coincidences. And their only concern was related to the intervalic behavior.

You're right I did not follow the thread of the conversation with its apparent anchor in the Renaissance. And since you seem to be uninterested in exploring a more nuanced discussion than the previous series of posts prior to my entry, I will bow out.


----------



## EdwardBast

SanAntone said:


> I don't know who translated Zarlino, but I doubt that he actually wrote the words "chord" or "triad" since those terms originate from within a context of diatonic harmony. *At the very least, the terms chord and triad imply vertical thinking, which I think is inappropriate for Josquin and all the Medieval/Renaissance composers, who thought linearly, not vertically. * If that was what you wished to claim, that Renaissance composers thought vertically, then I disagree. They were aware of the vertical coincidences, but saw them as just that - coincidences. And their only concern was related to the intervalic behavior.
> 
> You're right I did not follow the thread of the conversation with its apparent anchor in the Renaissance. And since you seem to be uninterested in exploring a more nuanced discussion than the previous series of posts prior to my entry, I will bow out.


Where did you get this weird idea? It's perfectly obvious just by listening that Renaissance composers thought both linearly and vertically. And Zarlino, a Renaissance composer trained by a more famous Renaissance composer, proves it by describing the terms in which this vertical thought is framed! The Italian terms accordo and armonia are close cognates of the ones we use, so there is no confusion or translation issue. His statements refute all of your claims. More to the point, simultaneous sounding tones - intervals - are vertical. Thinking about their acceptable and desired configurations is vertical thinking!

Zarlino didn't use the word triad, as I made quite clear. He used the term perfect harmony. And I noted that everything to which his term perfect harmony applies is a thing we now call a triad. The term was never attributed to anyone in the Renaissance. I used it only in the limited context of explaining to modern readers familiar with the term triad what combinations of tones Zarlino is describing.


----------



## new but obsessed

Chilham said:


> Composers born 1533-1567. What's our 'Work of the Week'?
> 
> *Level 1*
> No works
> 
> *Level 2*
> No works
> 
> *Level 3*
> *Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Orfeo*
> 
> I was surprised. I thought another Monteverdi work would take the accolade. I was wrong.
> 
> My listening today. I've been looking forward to this all week:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Monteverdi: l'Orfeo
> 
> Jordi Savall, Montserrat Figueras, Furio Zanasi, Arianna Savall, Sara Mingardo, Carlos Mena, Gerd Türk, Le Concert des Nations, La Capella Reial de Catalunya


I've been excited to get to Monteverdi and opera! I've not had the chance to catch any operas prior to Mozart and this will be the first time I've dug into any Baroque opera recordings. Four tracks into this disc, and I'm really loving it! Such a different energy from all other operas I've seen.


----------



## Chilham

More Monteverdi coming at you.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Orfeo
*Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Incoronazione di Poppea, SV308 (Opera) esp. Act 3: "Pur ti miro"
Monteverdi, Claudio: Vespro della Beata Vergine (Vespers of 1610)	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book VIII "Madrigali Guerrieri et Amorosi" inc. Il Ballo delle Ingrate, Lamento della Ninfa, Il Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda*

Seven hours of listening for me today. Good job I got much of the way through Poppea last night.










Monteverdi: l'Incoronazione di Poppea

René Jacobs & Concerto Vocale










Monteverdi: Vespro della Beata Vergine

Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent










Monteverdi: Madrigals Book VIII "Madrigali Guerrieri et Amorosi"

Anthony Rooley, Consort Of Musicke, Paul Agnew, Richard Edgar-Wilson, Alan Ewing, Andrew King, Dame Emma Kirkby, Mary Nichols, Allan Parkes, Kristine Szulik, Evelyn Tubb

If you don't have time for all of that, at least take a few minutes to listen to Pur Ti Miro from l'Incoronazione di Poppea:


----------



## new but obsessed

Chilham said:


> If you don't have time for all of that, at least take a few minutes to listen to Pur Ti Miro from l'Incoronazione di Poppea:


I don't quite have seven hours today, unfortunately. I've found those same three recordings on Apple Music. Are you able to suggest a few tracks from the Vespro and Madrigal albums?

Thanks!


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> I don't quite have seven hours today, unfortunately. I've found those same three recordings on Apple Music. Are you able to suggest a few tracks from the Vespro and Madrigal albums?
> 
> Thanks!


For the madrigals:
Il Ballo delle Ingrate
Lamento della Ninfa
Il Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda

I'll see what I've got for the Vespers.


----------



## Mandryka

And bad sound but quite a performance here from the end of Incoronazione


----------



## Mandryka

You've moved from Machaut to this in three weeks!


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> You've moved from Machaut to this in three weeks!


Got to cover 100 recommendations per week and there's simply not enough recommendations to justify spending longer here, despite me finding additional sources purely for this period. I know it's not perfect, and I know you're not happy about it, but as others have said, the time allocation is about right. Blame the music writers, the radio stations, the academic establishments, the websites, not me.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> others have said, the time allocation is about right. .


,zacn ,.lszacnzs,.lcn zs,.la cnsza.lcnmzs.vcn zsc


----------



## new but obsessed

Chilham said:


> For the madrigals:
> Il Ballo delle Ingrate
> Lamento della Ninfa
> Il Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda
> 
> I'll see what I've got for the Vespers.


I'm liking Monteverdi. I particularly love that first section of Il Combattimento ('Non schivar...'). Would love to see some live one day.

I also think I can sense that lineage from de la Halle and the troubadour music and instrumentation (those twangy strings), and quite distinct in tamber from the Romantic music I'm most familiar with. But the form certainly fully fits my idea of what opera is, unlike Robin & Marion.

Very interesting listens!


----------



## Jogaga

I'm really suprised about the Monteverdi's, Claudio: l'Orfeo. 

The choir parts are so big and wide. Really stunning.


----------



## Chilham

Some of my favourite music here:

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Orfeo
Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Incoronazione di Poppea, SV308 esp. Act 3: "Pur ti miro"
Monteverdi, Claudio: Vespro della Beata Vergine (Vespers of 1610)	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book VIII "Madrigali Guerrieri et Amorosi" inc. Il Ballo delle Ingrate, Lamento della Ninfa, Il Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda

*Level 4*
*Dowland, John: Lachrimae	
Gesualdo, Carlo: Madrigali a cinque voci, Libro sesto inc. Moro, Lasso, Resto di Dormi Noia
Byrd, William: Mass for Five Voices	
Byrd, William: Mass for Four Voices	
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: Officium Defunctorum (Requiem)	
Gabrieli, Giovanni: Sacrae Symphoniae esp. Sonata Pian'e Forte
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book 5 inc. Cruda Amarilli
Dowland, John: First Booke of Songes inc. v. Can She Excuse My …, vi. The Frog Galliard, xvii. Come Again, Sweet Love Doth Now Invite
Byrd, William: Ave Verum Corpus *

My listening today will include:










Dowland: Lachrimae

Elizabeth Kenney, Phantasm










Gesualdo: Madrigali a Cinque Voci

Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent










Byrd: Mass for Five Voices

Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent










Victoria: Requiem

Peter Phillips, The Tallis Scholars










Dowland: First Booke of Songes

Anthony Rooley, The Consort of Musicke


----------



## Chilham

It's not that I don't empathise with Mandryka. I could spend a month here.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Orfeo
Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Incoronazione di Poppea, SV308 esp. Act 3: "Pur ti miro"
Monteverdi, Claudio: Vespro della Beata Vergine (Vespers of 1610)	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book VIII "Madrigali Guerrieri et Amorosi" inc. Il Ballo delle Ingrate, Lamento della Ninfa, Il Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda

*Level 4*
Dowland, John: Lachrimae	
Byrd, William: Gradualia inc. For 5 voices Justorum Animae, For 4 voices Ave Verum Corpus, For 3 Voices Haec Dies
Gesualdo, Carlo: Madrigali a cinque voci, Libro sesto esp. Moro, Lasso, Resto di Dormi Noia
Byrd, William: Mass for Five Voices	
Byrd, William: Mass for Four Voices	
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: Officium Defunctorum (Requiem)	
Gabrieli, Giovanni: Sacrae Symphoniae inc. Sonata Pian'e Forte
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book 5 inc.Cruda Amarilli
Dowland, John: First Booke of Songes esp. v. Can She Excuse My …, vi. The Frog Galliard, xvii. Come Again, Sweet Love Doth Now Invite

*Level 5*
*Dowland, John: Second Booke of Songes inc. I Saw My Lady Weep, Flow My Tears, Sorrow, Sorrow, Stay, 
Monteverdi, Claudio: Il Ritorno d'Ulysse in Patria 
Morley, Thomas	First Book of Ayres: It Was a Lover and His Lass, Will You Buy Me a Fine Dog
Gesualdo, Carlo: Tenebrae Responsories Part 1	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Scherzi Musicali cioè arie et madrigali inc. Zefiro Torna e di soavi accenti, SV 251
Bull, John: Fitzwilliam Virginal Book esp. Walsingham Variations, The King's Hunt, The Spanish Paven, Fantasia, Parthenia
Byrd, William: Cantiones sacrae inc. O Lux Beata Trinitas
Byrd, William: Fitzwilliam Virginal Book esp. The Bells, The Earle of Oxford's Marche, Wolsey's Wylde, Sellinger's Round
Cavalieri, Emilio de': Rappresentatione di anima et di corpo esp. Anima Mia Che Pensi
Peri, Jacopo: La Dafne - see Gaglianio 1582	*

My listening today will include:










Bull, Byrd: Fitzwilliam Virginal Book

Kit Armstrong










Byrd: Cantiones sacrae

David Skinner, Alamire










Gesualdo: Tenebrae Responsories

Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent










Monteverdi: Il Ritorno d'Ulisse in Patria

Rene Jacobs, Concerto Vocale, Danielle Borst, Guillemette Laurens, Jennifer Larmore, Michael Schopper










Monteverdi: Zefiro Torna e di Soavi Accenti

Christina Pluhar, Nuria Rial, Philippe Jaroussky, L'Arpeggiata


----------



## Chilham

Just the top-half of Level 6 today.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Orfeo
Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Incoronazione di Poppea, SV308 esp. Act 3: "Pur ti miro"
Monteverdi, Claudio: Vespro della Beata Vergine (Vespers of 1610)	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book VIII "Madrigali Guerrieri et Amorosi" inc. Il Ballo delle Ingrate, Lamento della Ninfa, Il Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda

*Level 4*
Dowland, John: Lachrimae	
Byrd, William: Gradualia inc. For 5 voices Justorum Animae, For 4 voices Ave Verum Corpus, For 3 Voices Haec Dies
Gesualdo, Carlo: Madrigali a cinque voci, Libro sesto esp. Moro, Lasso, Resto di Dormi Noia
Byrd, William: Mass for Five Voices	
Byrd, William: Mass for Four Voices	
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: Officium Defunctorum (Requiem)	
Gabrieli, Giovanni: Sacrae Symphoniae inc. Sonata Pian'e Forte
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book 5 inc.Cruda Amarilli
Dowland, John: First Booke of Songes esp. v. Can She Excuse My …, vi. The Frog Galliard, xvii. Come Again, Sweet Love Doth Now Invite

*Level 5*
Dowland, John: Second Booke of Songes inc. I Saw My Lady Weep, Flow My Tears, Sorrow, Sorrow, Stay, 
Monteverdi, Claudio: Il Ritorno d'Ulysse in Patria
Morley, Thomas	First Book of Ayres: It Was a Lover and His Lass, Will You Buy Me a Fine Dog
Gesualdo, Carlo: Tenebrae Responsories Part 1	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Scherzi Musicali cioè arie et madrigali inc. Zefiro Torna e di soavi accenti, SV 251
Bull, John: Fitzwilliam Virginal Book esp. Walsingham Variations, The King's Hunt, The Spanish Paven, Fantasia, Parthenia
Byrd, William: Cantiones sacrae inc. O Lux Beata Trinitas
Byrd, William: Fitzwilliam Virginal Book esp. The Bells, The Earle of Oxford's Marche, Wolsey's Wylde, Sellinger's Round
Cavalieri, Emilio de': Rappresentatione di anima et di corpo esp. Anima Mia Che Pensi
Peri, Jacopo: La Dafne - see Gaglianio 1582

*Level 6*
*Byrd, William: "Qui Passe: For My Ladye Nevill"	
Caccini, Giulio: Le Nuove Musiche	
Gabrieli, Giovanni: In Ecclesiis	
Byrd, William: Infelix Ego	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book IV esp. Sì ch'io vorrei morire hora ch'io bacio amore, Io Me Son Giovinetta, A Un Giro Sol
Byrd, William: Great Service	
Gabrieli, Giovanni: Canzoni XIII	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book VI esp.Lamento d'Arianna, Lagrime d'amante
Byrd, William, Gibbons, Orlando: Parthenia inc. Pavan: The Earl of Salisbury
Marenzio, Luca: Madrigali a 5 voci Libro 9 esp. Solo e Pensoso
Morley, Thomas: The First Book of Ballets to Five Voices inc. Now is the Month of Maying, Fire, Fire My Heart, My Bonny Lass She Smileth, Sing We and Chant It
Morley, Thomas and others: The Triumphes of Oriana inc. Morley: Hard by a Crystal Fountain*

My listening today will include:










Byrd My Ladye Nevells Book & Parthenia

Kit Armstrong










Byrd: Infelix Ego

Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent










Byrd: The Great Service

Odyssean Ensemble, Colm Carey, Christian Wilson










Caccini: La Nuove Musiche 3, 8, 11 & 22

Roberta Mameli, Luca Pianca










Morley: The Triumphs of Oriana

I Fagiolini, Robert Hollingworth, David Miller


----------



## Chilham

This is pretty:










Marenzio: Madrigal a 5 Voce Libro 9, Solo e Pensoso

La Venexiana


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> This is pretty:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marenzio: Madrigal a 5 Voce Libro 9, Solo e Pensoso
> 
> La Venexiana


Yes.

Alessandrini's Marenzio is a great favourite of mine.

The sort of polyphony you hear in Italian madrigals has recently inspired some new ideas about how to play J S Bach's keyboard music. I just mention this because it may be useful to think about when you're listening to Bach performance.


----------



## Chilham

The rest of Level 6 today, those works with two recommendations:

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Orfeo
Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Incoronazione di Poppea, SV308 esp. Act 3: "Pur ti miro"
Monteverdi, Claudio: Vespro della Beata Vergine (Vespers of 1610)	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book VIII "Madrigali Guerrieri et Amorosi" inc. Il Ballo delle Ingrate, Lamento della Ninfa, Il Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda

*Level 4*
Dowland, John: Lachrimae	
Byrd, William: Gradualia inc. For 5 voices Justorum Animae, For 4 voices Ave Verum Corpus, For 3 Voices Haec Dies
Gesualdo, Carlo: Madrigali a cinque voci, Libro sesto esp. Moro, Lasso, Resto di Dormi Noia
Byrd, William: Mass for Five Voices	
Byrd, William: Mass for Four Voices	
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: Officium Defunctorum (Requiem)	
Gabrieli, Giovanni: Sacrae Symphoniae inc. Sonata Pian'e Forte
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book 5 inc.Cruda Amarilli
Dowland, John: First Booke of Songes esp. v. Can She Excuse My …, vi. The Frog Galliard, xvii. Come Again, Sweet Love Doth Now Invite

*Level 5*
Dowland, John: Second Booke of Songes inc. I Saw My Lady Weep, Flow My Tears, Sorrow, Sorrow, Stay, 
Monteverdi, Claudio: Il Ritorno d'Ulysse in Patria
Morley, Thomas	First Book of Ayres: It Was a Lover and His Lass, Will You Buy Me a Fine Dog
Gesualdo, Carlo: Tenebrae Responsories Part 1	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Scherzi Musicali cioè arie et madrigali inc. Zefiro Torna e di soavi accenti, SV 251
Bull, John: Fitzwilliam Virginal Book esp. Walsingham Variations, The King's Hunt, The Spanish Paven, Fantasia, Parthenia
Byrd, William: Cantiones sacrae inc. O Lux Beata Trinitas
Byrd, William: Fitzwilliam Virginal Book esp. The Bells, The Earle of Oxford's Marche, Wolsey's Wylde, Sellinger's Round
Cavalieri, Emilio de': Rappresentatione di anima et di corpo esp. Anima Mia Che Pensi
Peri, Jacopo: La Dafne - see Gaglianio 1582

*Level 6*
Byrd, William: "Qui Passe: For My Ladye Nevill"	
Caccini, Giulio: Le Nuove Musiche	
Gabrieli, Giovanni: In Ecclesiis	
Byrd, William: Infelix Ego	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book IV esp. Sì ch'io vorrei morire hora ch'io bacio amore, Io Me Son Giovinetta, A Un Giro Sol
Byrd, William: Great Service	
Gabrieli, Giovanni: Canzoni XIII	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book VI esp.Lamento d'Arianna, Lagrime d'amante
Byrd, William, Gibbons, Orlando: Parthenia inc. Pavan: The Earl of Salisbury
Marenzio, Luca: Madrigali a 5 voci Libro 9 esp. Solo e Pensoso
Morley, Thomas: The First Book of Ballets to Five Voices inc. Now is the Month of Maying, Fire, Fire My Heart, My Bonny Lass She Smileth, Sing We and Chant It
Morley, Thomas and others: The Triumphes of Oriana inc. Morley: Hard by a Crystal Fountain
*Byrd, William: Mass for Three Voices	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book III inc. Vattene pur Crudel
Monteverdi, Claudio: Selva Morale e Spirituale	
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book VII esp. Chiome d'oro, Tirsi e Clori
Dowland, John: A Musical Banquet esp. iii. In Darkness Let Me Dwell
Gesualdo, Carlo: Madrigali a cinque voci, Libro cinqo inc. Deh, Coprite il Bel Seno, Dolcissima Mia Vita
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: Missa Vidi Speciosam	
Dowland, John: Third and Last Booke of Songes or Aires inc. Say Love, Weep you no more, sad fountains
Byrd, William: Psalmes, Sonets and Songs of Sadness and Pietie inc. Though Amaryllis Dance in Green, Come to Me Grief For Ever
Byrd, William: Songs of Sundrie Natures: I Thought That Love Had Been a Boy, Who Made Thee, Hob, Forsake the Plough
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: Missa Pro Victoria	
Sweelinck, Jan Pieterswoon: Cantiones Sacrae	
Hassler, Hans Leo: Lustgarten Neuer Teuscher Gesãng	
Anon.: A Newe Northen Dittye of ye Ladye Greene Sleves - Song and Divisions*

My listening today:










Monteverdi: Selva Morale e Sprituale

Claudio Cavina, La Venexiana

If you don't have the time today:


----------



## Mandryka

Monteverdi v is one to listen to. It marks the transition from renaissance to baroque. Renaissance style at the start of Bk V, baroque at the end.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Dowland, John: Third and Last Booke of Songes or Aires inc. Say Love, Weep you no more, sad fountains


What are the options for Dowland Bk 3 on record? Obviously there's Rooley, is there anything else?


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> What are the options for Dowland Bk 3 on record? Obviously there's Rooley, is there anything else?


I couldn't find anything with all 21 songs. There's quite a few of songs on various, "Lute music", or Dowland compilations.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> I couldn't find anything with all 21 songs. There's quite a few of songs on various, "Lute music", or Dowland compilations.


Yes, it looks to me as though Rooley's the only one. The Rooley is reliably good I think, I mentioned it because I don't think I've ever paid attention to Bk 3 before today, when I saw it on your list. I don't have a very good grasp of Dowland's development.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Monteverdi v is one to listen to. It marks the transition from renaissance to baroque. Renaissance style at the start of Bk V, baroque at the end.


I've focused on other, new-to-me, Monteverdi material this week but have time today for this:










Monteverdi: Madrigals Book V

Krijn Koetsveld, Le Nuove Musiche


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> I've focused on other, new-to-me, Monteverdi material this week but have time today for this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Monteverdi: Madrigals Book V
> 
> Krijn Koetsveld, Le Nuove Musiche


Did you enjoy the selva morale? I've never got very far exploring it in fact, and I'm wondering whether to give it more time. There's a lot of it! I just started to listen to a « best of » recording by Antonio Eros Negri, whose Willaert I quite enjoyed - this sounds rather fun in fact! Maybe in the past I've been listening to the wrong performances.

The other problem Monteverdi for me is Ulysse - which I think has some really memorable things in it but somehow the whole has left not much of an impact. I think I once read that there are some unresolved textual problems with it, maybe that's the root of the problem I have.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Did you enjoy the selva morale? ...


I loved it. I'd only listened to the highlights previously, Laudate Dominum In Sanctis Eius, Laudate, Pueri II, Beatus Vir etc. The rest isn't quite to that level but immensely enjoyable all the same.


----------



## Chilham

Completing the list for this week. If you've enjoyed any of the more recommended works at higher levels, you'll discover more from that composer lower down. If there are any hidden gems here, please let us know.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Orfeo
Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Incoronazione di Poppea, SV308 esp. Act 3: "Pur ti miro"
Monteverdi, Claudio: Vespro della Beata Vergine (Vespers of 1610) 
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book VIII "Madrigali Guerrieri et Amorosi" inc. Il Ballo delle Ingrate, Lamento della Ninfa, Il Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda

*Level 4*
Dowland, John: Lachrimae 
Byrd, William: Gradualia inc. For 5 voices Justorum Animae, For 4 voices Ave Verum Corpus, For 3 Voices Haec Dies
Gesualdo, Carlo: Madrigali a cinque voci, Libro sesto esp. Moro, Lasso, Resto di Dormi Noia
Byrd, William: Mass for Five Voices 
Byrd, William: Mass for Four Voices 
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: Officium Defunctorum (Requiem) 
Gabrieli, Giovanni: Sacrae Symphoniae inc. Sonata Pian'e Forte
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book 5 inc.Cruda Amarilli
Dowland, John: First Booke of Songes esp. v. Can She Excuse My …, vi. The Frog Galliard, xvii. Come Again, Sweet Love Doth Now Invite

*Level 5*
Dowland, John: Second Booke of Songes inc. I Saw My Lady Weep, Flow My Tears, Sorrow, Sorrow, Stay,
Monteverdi, Claudio: Il Ritorno d'Ulysse in Patria
Morley, Thomas First Book of Ayres: It Was a Lover and His Lass, Will You Buy Me a Fine Dog
Gesualdo, Carlo: Tenebrae Responsories Part 1 
Monteverdi, Claudio: Scherzi Musicali cioè arie et madrigali inc. Zefiro Torna e di soavi accenti, SV 251
Bull, John: Fitzwilliam Virginal Book esp. Walsingham Variations, The King's Hunt, The Spanish Paven, Fantasia, Parthenia
Byrd, William: Cantiones sacrae inc. O Lux Beata Trinitas
Byrd, William: Fitzwilliam Virginal Book esp. The Bells, The Earle of Oxford's Marche, Wolsey's Wylde, Sellinger's Round
Cavalieri, Emilio de': Rappresentatione di anima et di corpo esp. Anima Mia Che Pensi
Peri, Jacopo: La Dafne - see Gaglianio 1582

*Level 6*
Byrd, William: "Qui Passe: For My Ladye Nevill" 
Caccini, Giulio: Le Nuove Musiche 
Gabrieli, Giovanni: In Ecclesiis 
Byrd, William: Infelix Ego 
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book IV esp. Sì ch'io vorrei morire hora ch'io bacio amore, Io Me Son Giovinetta, A Un Giro Sol
Byrd, William: Great Service 
Gabrieli, Giovanni: Canzoni XIII 
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book VI esp.Lamento d'Arianna, Lagrime d'amante
Byrd, William, Gibbons, Orlando: Parthenia inc. Pavan: The Earl of Salisbury
Marenzio, Luca: Madrigali a 5 voci Libro 9 esp. Solo e Pensoso
Morley, Thomas: The First Book of Ballets to Five Voices inc. Now is the Month of Maying, Fire, Fire My Heart, My Bonny Lass She Smileth, Sing We and Chant It
Morley, Thomas and others: The Triumphes of Oriana inc. Morley: Hard by a Crystal Fountain
Byrd, William: Mass for Three Voices 
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book III inc. Vattene pur Crudel
Monteverdi, Claudio: Selva Morale e Spirituale 
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book VII esp. Chiome d'oro, Tirsi e Clori
Dowland, John: A Musical Banquet esp. iii. In Darkness Let Me Dwell
Gesualdo, Carlo: Madrigali a cinque voci, Libro cinqo inc. Deh, Coprite il Bel Seno, Dolcissima Mia Vita
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: Missa Vidi Speciosam 
Dowland, John: Third and Last Booke of Songes or Aires inc. Say Love, Weep you no more, sad fountains
Byrd, William: Psalmes, Sonets and Songs of Sadness and Pietie inc. Though Amaryllis Dance in Green, Come to Me Grief For Ever
Byrd, William: Songs of Sundrie Natures: I Thought That Love Had Been a Boy, Who Made Thee, Hob, Forsake the Plough
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: Missa Pro Victoria 
Sweelinck, Jan Pieterswoon: Cantiones Sacrae 
Hassler, Hans Leo: Lustgarten Neuer Teuscher Gesãng 
Anon.: A Newe Northen Dittye of ye Ladye Greene Sleves - Song and Divisions

*Level 7*
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: O Magnum Mysterium 
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: O Quam Gloriosum est Regnum 
Dowland, John: Pilgrime's Solace 
Gallus, Jacobus: Opus Musicum 
Gabrieli, Giovanni: O Magnum Mysterium 
Wert, Giaches de: Il Settimo Libro de Madrigali inc. Solo e pensoso i più deserti campi
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: Missa Laetatus Sum 
Byrd, William: Trititia et Anxietas 
Philips, Peter: Cantiones Sacrae 
Oislander, Lucas: Fuenfftzig Geistliche Lieder und Psalmen 
White, Robert: Christe Qui Lux Es Et Dies 
Byrd, William: Cirumspice, Jerusalem 
Byrd, William: Non vos Relinguam 
Byrd, William: O Domine, Adjuva Me 
Byrd, William: O That Most Rare Breast 
Byrd, William: Psalmes, Songs, and Sonnets inc. Come Woeful Orpheus, In Winter Cold - Whereat an Ant
Ferrabosco, Alfonso Jnr.: Fly From The World 
Luzzaschi, Luzzasco: Madrigali per Cantare et Sonate 
Malvezzi, Cristofano, Cavalieri, Emilio d': La Pellegrina 
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: Benedictus 
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: Trahe Me, Post Te 
Victoria, Tomás Luis de: O Vos Omnes 
Anon.: Dona Noblis Pacem 
Caccini, Giulio (disp.): Ave Maria 
Cavalieri, Emilio de': Anima Mia Che Pensi 
Cavalieri, Emilio de': Dalle Piu Alte Sfere 
Cavalieri, Emilio de': O Che Nuovo Miracolo 
Gallus, Jacobus: Mirabile Mysterium 
Vecchi, Orazio: Selva di varia ricreatione 
Vecchi, Orazio: So Ben Mi C'ha Bon Tempo 
Vecchi, Orazio: L'Amfiparaso 
Caccini, Giulio: Amarilli Mia Bella 
Caccini, Giulio: Aria di Romanesca 
Caccini, Giulio: Il Rapimento de Cefalo 
Caccini, Giulio: Lo Che Dal Ciel Cader 
Caccini, Giulio: Il Rapimento di Cefalo 
Marenzio, Luca: Madrigali a 5 voci Libro 1 Dolorosi Martir
Marenzio, Luca: Madrigali a 5 voci Libro 2 I' Piango; et Ella il Volto, Stider Faceva
Sethus Calvisius: Ein Feste Ist Unser Gott 
Farmer, John: Fair Phyllis 
Gabrieli, Giovanni: Miserere Mei Deus 
Gabrieli, Giovanni: Reliquae Sacrorum Concentum 
Gabrieli, Giovanni: Sonata per Tre Violini 
Gabrieli, Giovanni: Sonata Pian' E Forte 
Morley, Thomas: First Booke of Madrigals 
Philips, Peter: Second Book of Madrigals 
Philips, Peter: Tibi Laus, Tibi Gloria 
Praetorius, Hieronymus: Cantiones Sacrae 
Praetorius, Hieronymus: Joseph, Lieber Joseph Mein 
Viadana, Lodovico: Cento Concerti Ecclesiastici a Una, a Due, a Tre & a Quattro Voci 
Peri, Jacopo: Dunque Fre Torbid' Onde 
Peri, Jacopo: Qual Nova Meraviglia 
Dowland, John: Lady Hunsdon's Puffe 
Sweelinck, Jan Pieterswoon: Onder een Linde Groen 
Sweelinck, Jan Pieterswoon: Pseaurnes de David 
Sweelinck, Jan Pieterswoon: Rimes Françoises et Italiennes 
Sweelinck, Jan Pieterswoon: Variations & Fantasias for Organ 
Titelouze, Jehan: Hymnes de l'Eglise 
Titelouze, Jehan: Le Magnificat 
Hassler, Hans Leo: Kirchengesãnge 
Hassler, Hans Leo: Psalmen und Christliche Gesãng 
Hassler, Hans Leo: Reliquae Sacrorum Concentum 
Lobo, Duarte: Liber Missarium 
Valente, Antonio: Follias Criollas inc. Gallarda Napolitana
Piccinini, Filippo: La Selva Sin Amor 
Quinciani, Lucia: Udite Lagrimosi Spìrti s'Averno Udite 
Monteverdi, Claudio: Missa in Illo Tempore 
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book II esp. Ecco mormorar l'onde, Non si levav'ancor l'alba novella


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Completing the list for this week. If you've enjoyed any of the more recommended works at higher levels, you'll discover more from that composer lower down. If there are any hidden gems here, please let us know.
> 
> [


Titelouze

Cmcmc c. Cm


----------



## premont

Chilham said:


> Caccini, Giulio: Toccata per Spinettina, e Violino
> Caccini, Giulio: Toccate d'Intavolature di Cimbale e Organo


Never heard of keyboard works by Caccini. Aren't you mixing something up?

Other than that I second Mandryka's Titelouze recommendation. And Titelouze also wrote some liturgical music of high quality.


----------



## Chilham

premont said:


> Never heard of keyboard works by Caccini. Aren't you mixing something up?...


Good catch. I should have said that works in Level 7 are not, "curated", so there may be errors. It looks like these, the first one at any rate, is Frescobaldi. He's coming next week. I'll dig deeper.

Edit: yes, both Frescobaldi.


----------



## Mandryka

Be sure to hear Rooley’s Pilgrime’s Solace (Dowland) - some amazing singing on it. Who is that in the first song - Disdain me still? I can't see who it is from the booklet. He does a good job!

(Vague memories that I noticed this before years ago, investigated and promptly forgot.)


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Be sure to hear Rooley's Pilgrime's Solace (Dowland) - some amazing singing on it. Who is that in the first song - Disdain me still? I can't see who it is from the booklet. He does a good job!
> 
> (Vague memories that I noticed this before years ago, investigated and promptly forgot.)


David Thomas, I think.


----------



## premont

Chilham said:


> David Thomas, I think.


You are right about this.

https://www.discogs.com/release/6873117-Dowland-The-Consort-Of-Musicke-A-Pilgrimes-Solace-1612


----------



## Mandryka

Thanks - I can see he’s recorded quite a lot, mostly music I don’t know (Haendel, English baroque)


----------



## Chilham

A new week and time to focus on composers born 1568-1599.

After the manic pace of last week with so many highly recommended and long works, perhaps more of a respite this week. We can take a little more time to look around and smell the roses as we stroll. Our 'Work of the Week'? If you don't know the story of this piece, make sure that you click on the link of, "Miserere", in the listing below which will take you to the piece listing in pianozach's most excellent Beginner's Guide thread.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
*Allegri, Gregorio: Miserere*

My listening today:










Allegri, Gregorio: Miserere

Harry Christophers, The Sixteen

Other versions recommended here.


----------



## Chilham

Next up:

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Allegri, Gregorio: Miserere

*Level 4*
*Schütz, Heinrich: Musikalisches Exequien*

My listening today:










Schütz, Heinrich:	Musikalisches Exequien

Lionel Meunier, Vox Luminis


----------



## new but obsessed

Really digging this Vox Luminis recording! Crisp, lovely voices. Adding to my growing comfort with sacred music


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> Really digging this Vox Luminis recording! Crisp, lovely voices. Adding to my growing comfort with sacred music


It's a beautiful piece.


----------



## Chilham

More Schütz coming tomorrow but for today, some new composers:

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Allegri, Gregorio: Miserere

*Level 4*
Schütz, Heinrich: Musikalisches Exequien

*Level 5*
*Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Fiori Musicali	
Praetorius, Michael: Terpsichore	
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Il Primo Libro della Canzoni inc. Toccata per Spinettina, e Violino
Gibbons, Orlando: First Set of Madrigals and Motets inc. The Silver Swanne, What is Our Life, How Art Thou Thrall'd, Dainty Fine Bird*

My listening today:










Frescobaldi: Fiori Musicali (Extracts)

Andrea De Carlo, Ensemble Mare Nostrum, Vox Luminis










Praetorius: Terpsichore

Katharina Bauml, Capella de la Torre










Gibbons: First Set of Madrigals and Motets

Anthony Rooley, Consort Of Musicke


----------



## Mandryka

Fiori Musicale contains three organ masses. That’s to say, it has organ music designed to be interleaved with the chanted ordinarium. You may find it interesting to hear it in a performance with the singing.

There is a Naxos CD with music by Gibbons and Tomkins which I think is particularly successful, partly because of the ensemble Red Byrd.


----------



## Chilham

More Schütz!

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Allegri, Gregorio: Miserere

*Level 4*
Schütz, Heinrich: Musikalisches Exequien

*Level 5*
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Fiori Musicali	
Praetorius, Michael: Terpsichore	
*Schütz, Heinrich: Psalmen Davids	
Schütz, Heinrich: Weihnachts-Historie "Christmas Oratorio"*
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Il Primo Libro della Canzoni inc. Toccata per Spinettina, e Violino
Gibbons, Orlando: First Set of Madrigals and Motets inc. The Silver Swanne, What is Our Life, How Art Thou Thrall'd, Dainty Fine Bird
*Schütz, Heinrich: Symphoniae Sacrae III esp. Saul, Saul, was verfolgst du much?*

My listening today:










Schütz: Psalmen Davids

Konrad Junghänel, Cantus Cölln










Schütz: Symphoniarum Sacrarum III

John Eliot Gardiner, Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique, Monteverdi Choir


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Allegri, Gregorio: Miserere

*Level 4*
Schütz, Heinrich: Musikalisches Exequien

*Level 5*
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Fiori Musicali	
Praetorius, Michael: Terpsichore	
Schütz, Heinrich: Psalmen Davids	
Schütz, Heinrich: Weihnachts-Historie "Christmas Oratorio"
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Il Primo Libro della Canzoni inc. Toccata per Spinettina, e Violino
Gibbons, Orlando: First Set of Madrigals and Motets inc. The Silver Swanne, What is Our Life, How Art Thou Thrall'd, Dainty Fine Bird
Schütz, Heinrich: Symphoniae Sacrae III esp. Saul, Saul, was verfolgst du much?

*Level 6*
*Gibbons, Orlando: Fantasia in Four Parts - Fantasia - Suite No. 2
Praetorius, Michael: Musae Sioniae
Kapsberger, Giovanni Girolamo: Libro primo d`Intavolatura di chitarone esp. Toccata Arpeggiata
Gibbons, Orlando: This is a Record of John	
Schein, Johann: Banchetto Musicale	
Schütz, Heinrich: Kleiner Geistlichen Concerten
Schütz, Heinrich: Cantiones Sacrae	
Praetorius, Michael: Mass for Christmas	
Praetorius, Michael: Syntagma Musicum	
Wilbye, John: Second Set of Madrigals inc. Happy, Oh Happy, Sweet Honey-Sucking Bees, All Pleasure is of This Condition, 
Gibbons, Orlando: Parthenia inc. Earl of Salisbury
Schütz, Heinrich: Daphne	
Schütz, Heinrich: Seven Last Words	
Schütz, Heinrich: St Matthew's Passion	
Scheidt, Samuel: Tabulatura Nova	
Merula, Tarquinio: Canzoni Overo Sonate Concertate per Chiesa e Camera*

My listening today:










Kapsberger: Toccata Arpeggiata

Paul O'Dette










Gibbons: Fantasia No. 2

Latitude 37










Wilbye: Second Set of Madrigals

Anthony Rooley, Consort of Musicke


----------



## Mandryka

The Red Byrd recording of Gibbons’s This is the Record of John is a great favourite of mine.

If you enjoyed the Kapsberger toccata, he wrote a second one in the same style, in Book 4. (It’s too baroque for me! But if you explore it, check Toccata 1 of Book 4 - it is one of the most magnificent things Kapsberger wrote.)


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> The Red Byrd recording of Gibbons's This is the Record of John is a great favourite of mine...


I listened to This is a Record of John on this:










I was a little underwhelmed. I'll check out your recommendation.



Mandryka said:


> ... If you enjoyed the Kapsberger toccata, he wrote a second one in the same style, in Book 4. (It's too baroque for me! But if you explore it, check Toccata 1 of Book 4 - it is one of the most magnificent things Kapsberger wrote.)


There's another Kapsberger piece coming tomorrow, Canarios. Jordi Savall and Hespèrion XXI's improvisation around the theme is a great favourite of mine. I'm never certain of the authenticity of anything Savall does, but he does produce some pretty music.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> I listened to This is a Record of John on this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was a little underwhelmed. I'll check out your recommendation.


Are you English? If you are you will relish Richard Wistreich's Yorkshire accent. If you're not, you may not even hear it of course!


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Kapsberger's villanellas are an utterly delightful part of his little heard vocal oeuvre. There is a terrific recording by Les Kapsber'girls (their maiden disc) and another by L'Arpeggiata led by Christina Pluhar who writes: "An artistic imitation of traditional music, the villanella turned its back on the stile nuovo of Florentine monody, with its affetti and virtuosic passagi.... Kapsberger wrote no fewer than seven books devoted to the villanella. These pieces, covering a wide range of styles, are among the finest ever written."


----------



## Mandryka

Re Kapsberger’s lute music, Rick, maybe you’ll enjoy Lukas Henning on YouTube. 

In addition to performing solo works, Henning plays with Sollazzo Ensemble, who have just released a second volume of music from the Leuven Chansonnier. It contains that most rare thing, a song (possibly) by Busnois!


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Are you English? If you are you will relish Richard Wistreich's Yorkshire accent. If you're not, you may not even hear it of course!


I challenge the assertion that being English means I or anyone else might relish the sound of a Yorkshire accent, unless perhaps it was wearing cricket whites. 

Wistreich was born is Sheffield but usually speaks when interviewed with a received pronunciation accent, and appears to sing with the West Country accent typical of English folk singers. I don't know if that's authentic to the English spoken at the time of Gibbons.


----------



## Chilham

At the end of a week with relatively few highly recommended works, we inevitably come to a large volume of Level 7 works. Remember, this Level 7 list is not 'curated' so may contain errors. Let us know of any hidden gems.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Allegri, Gregorio: Miserere

*Level 4*
Schütz, Heinrich: Musikalisches Exequien

*Level 5*
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Fiori Musicali 
Praetorius, Michael: Terpsichore 
Schütz, Heinrich: Psalmen Davids 
Schütz, Heinrich: Weihnachts-Historie "Christmas Oratorio"
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Il Primo Libro della Canzoni inc. Toccata per Spinettina, e Violino
Gibbons, Orlando: First Set of Madrigals and Motets inc. The Silver Swanne, What is Our Life, How Art Thou Thrall'd, Dainty Fine Bird
Schütz, Heinrich: Symphoniae Sacrae III esp. Saul, Saul, was verfolgst du much?

*Level 6*
Gibbons, Orlando: Fantasia in Four Parts - Fantasia - Suite No. 2
Praetorius, Michael: Musae Sioniae
Kapsberger, Giovanni Girolamo: Libro primo d`Intavolatura di chitarone esp. Toccata Arpeggiata
Gibbons, Orlando: This is a Record of John 
Schein, Johann: Banchetto Musicale 
Schütz, Heinrich: Kleiner Geistlichen Concerten
Schütz, Heinrich: Cantiones Sacrae 
Praetorius, Michael: Mass for Christmas 
Praetorius, Michael: Syntagma Musicum 
Wilbye, John: Second Set of Madrigals inc. Happy, Oh Happy, Sweet Honey-Sucking Bees, All Pleasure is of This Condition,
Gibbons, Orlando: Parthenia inc. Earl of Salisbury
Schütz, Heinrich: Daphne 
Schütz, Heinrich: Seven Last Words 
Schütz, Heinrich: St Matthew's Passion 
Scheidt, Samuel: Tabulatura Nova 
Merula, Tarquinio: Canzoni Overo Sonate Concertate per Chiesa e Camera

*Level 7*
Scheidt, Samuel: Ludi Musici 
Schütz, Heinrich: Il Libro Primo de Madrigali 
Schütz, Heinrich: Resurection History 
Schütz, Heinrich: Schwanengesang 
Landi, Stefano: Il Sant'Alessio (Opera) 
Kapsberger, Giovanni Girolamo: Libro Quarto d'Intavolatura di Chitarrone - Canario
Banchieri, Adriano: Concerti Ecclesiastici a Otto Voci 
Anerio, Giovanni: Eccone al Gran Damasco 
Anerio, Giovanni: Teatro Armonico Spirituale 
Cima, Giovanni: Concerti Ecclesiastici 
Peuerl, Paul: Gantz Neue Padouanen 
Peuerl, Paul: Newe Padouan, Intrada, Däntz und Galliarda 
Rossi, Salomone: Fifth Book of Madrigals 
Rossi, Salomone: Hashirim Asher Lish'lomo 
Rossi, Salomone: Sinfonie e Gagliarde 
Valentini, Pier Francesco: Cancone Nei Modo Salomonis 
Peerson, Martin: Mottects or Grave Chamber Music 
Praetorius, Michael Christ Lag in Todesbanden 
Praetorius, Michael: Polyhymnia Caduceatrix 
Praetorius, Michael: Polyhymnia Exercitatrix 
Praetorius, Michael: Theatrum Instrumentorum 
Tomkins, Thomas: When David Heard 
Wibye, John: First Set of Madrigals inc. Adieu, Sweet Amaryllis, Flora Gave Me Fairest Flowers
Wibye, John: The Teares or Lamentations of a Sorrowful Soule inc. 27. I am quite tired with my groans, 49. O God the rock of my whole strength
Bennett, John: Weep O Mine Eyes 
Romero, Mateo: In Devotione 
Romero, Mateo: Missa Bonae Voluntatis 
Agazzari, Agostino: Del Sonare Sopra Basso 
Agazzari, Agostino: Eumelio 
Franck, Melchior: Paradisus Musicus 
Staden, Johann: Harmoniae Sacrae 
Gagliano, Marco da: La Dafne (Opera) 
Gagliano, Marco da: La Flora (Opera) 
India, Sigismondo d': Piange, Madonna 
Valentini, Giovanni: Messa, Magnificat et Jubilate Deo 
Valentini, Giovanni: Musiche a Doi Voci 
Valentini, Giovanni: Secondo Libro di Madrigali 
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Aria di Romanesca 
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Arie Musicale 
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Capriccio sopra la battaglia 
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Cento Partite Sopra Passacagli 
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Dunque Dovro 
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Il Primo Libro delle Fantasie a Quattro 
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Il Primo Libro d'Intavolatura di Toccate di Cimbalo et Organo 
Frescobaldi, Girolamo: Partite Sopra L'Aria Della Romanesca 
Falconieri, Andrea: Chaconne In G Major 
de Boësset, Antoine: Ballet d'Alcidiane 
Grandsi, Alessandro: Cantacle et Arie 
Saracini, Claudio: Da Te Parto 
Schein, Johann: Cantional 
Schein, Johann: Fontana d'Israel 
Schein, Johann: Hirton Lust 
Schein, Johann: Opella Nova 
Siefert, Paul: Psalmen Davids 
Caccini, Francesca: Il Primo Libro della Musiche 
Caccini, Francesca: Ciaccona 
Gibbons, Orlando: O Clap Your Hands 
Gibbons, Orlando: O Lord, in thy Wrath 
Gibbons, Orland: See, See the World is Incarnate 
Landi, Stefano: La Morte d'Orfeo 
Porter, Walter: Madrigales and Ayres 
Scheidt, Samuel: Cantiones Sacrae 
Scheidt, Samuel: Concertus Sacri 
Scheidt, Samuel: Geistliche Concerten 
Scheidt, Samuel: Göritzer Tabulatur-Buch 
Scheidt, Samuel: LXX Symphonen 
Ravenscroft, Thomas: Pammella 
Pfendner, Heinrich: Delli Motetti 
Praetorius, Bartholomæus: Newe Liebliche Paduanene und Galliarden 
Vitali, Filippo: Artifici Musicali 
Vitali, Filippo: L'Aretusa 
Vitali, Filippo: Sonate No. 5 
Ward, John: Upon a Bank 
Mazzocchi, Domenico: La Catena d'Adone 
Mazzocchi, Domenico: Madrigali a Cinque Voci 
Marini, Biagio: Affetti Musicalli 
Marini, Biagio: La Orlanda 
Marini, Biagio: Sonata for 2 Violins and Keyboard 
Abbatini, Antonio: Dal Male il Bene 
Manelli, Francesco: L'Andromeda 
Turini, Francesco: First Book of Madrigals 
Huygens, Constantijn: Pathodia Sacra et Profana 
Lawes, Henry: Choise Psalms 
Lawes, Henry: Comus 
Lawes, Henry: The Siege of Rhodes 
Lawes, Henry: Zadok the Priest 
Mazzocchi, Virgilo: Chi Soffre Speri 
Mazzocchi, Virgilo: L'Egisto 
Rossi, Luigi: Il Palazzo Incantato 
Rossi, Luigi: Orfeo (Opera) 
Crüger, Johann: Praxis Pietatis Melica 
Gussago, Cesario: Sonate 
Hilton, John: Catch That Catch Can 
Selle, Thomas: St John Passion

My listening today:










Kapsberger: Improvisation on Canario

Jordi Savall, Hespèrion XXI










Gagliano: La Dafne (Highlights)

Pygmalion, Deborah Cachet, Raphaël Pichon, Lucile Richardot, Davy Cornillot, Maïlys De Villoutreys, Nicolas Brooymans










Wilbye: First Set of Madrigals

Anthony Rooley, Consort of Musicke


----------



## Chilham

I've very much enjoyed the madrigals by both Gibbons and Wilbye over recent weeks.

This is uplifting.










Falconieri: Chaconne in G Major

Daniel Hope, Lorenza Borrani, Jonathan Cohen, Kristian Bezuidenhout, Stefan Maass, Stefan Rath, Hans-Kristian Kjos Sorensen


----------



## Mandryka

From that list the one that stands out for me is Frescobaldi's Cento Partite Sopra Passacagli -- the whole of the first book of toccatas in fact.


----------



## Mandryka

And the fact that someone put the Görlitzer Tabulaturbuch in there, rather than the Talbulatura Nova, must just be a mistake! Anyway, you should her some of Scheidt's Talbulatura Nova.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> Re Kapsberger's lute music, Rick, maybe you'll enjoy Lukas Henning on YouTube.
> 
> In addition to performing solo works, Henning plays with Sollazzo Ensemble, who have just released a second volume of music from the Leuven Chansonnier. It contains that most rare thing, a song (possibly) by Busnois!


Mandryka, thanks for alerting me to Lukas Henning. I had never heard of him. For a walk on Kapsberger's avant-gardish, dramatic wild side I've always enjoyed Rolf Lislevand's recording of the fourth book. His teacher, Hopkinson Smith, is also quite good. Paul O'Dette on the other hand is rather too conservative and flat for my taste. I'm glad you mentioned Busnois. His _Seule a par moy_ is one of the most beautiful things the Renaissance produced. Joshua Rifkin's recording from way back when made me a Busnoisnite for life.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> And the fact that someone put the Görlitzer Tabulaturbuch in there, rather than the Talbulatura Nova, must just be a mistake! Anyway, you should her some of Scheidt's Talbulatura Nova.


_Das Görlitzer Tabulaturbuch_ was Scheidt's last publication, containing one hundred organ chorales in four-part harmonizations.


----------



## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> _Das Görlitzer Tabulaturbuch_ was Scheidt's last publication, containing one hundred organ chorales in four-part harmonizations.


I know. I just think it's not very interesting music to hear.


----------



## pianozach

Chilham said:


> I've very much enjoyed the madrigals by both Gibbons and Wilbye over recent weeks.
> 
> This is uplifting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Falconieri: Chaconne in G Major
> 
> Daniel Hope, Lorenza Borrani, Jonathan Cohen, Kristian Bezuidenhout, Stefan Maass, Stefan Rath, Hans-Kristian Kjos Sorensen


I have only one track from *Daniel Hope* in my digital music library, and this is the one, although it's from his *"Air: A Baroque Journey"* album.

I don't have a clue where I got it from.


----------



## Chilham

There are times on this journey when we are inundated with highly recommended works. Similarly, there will be times when the recommendations are there, but few reach high levels. This is one of those weeks.

So what should we do? Sweep them to one side and press on to the next big composer? I say, "No"!. Purcell, Vivaldi, Handel, Bach and others can wait. The composers we'll look at this week were the pre-eminent composers of their generation and we should take a little time to give their works consideration.

Work of the week for composers born between 1600 and 1632:

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
No works

*Level 4*
*Carissimi, Giacomo: Jephte esp. Final Act*

My listening today, although I actually listened to this yesterday evening:










Carissimi: Jephte

New Trinity Baroque, Predrag Gosta, Elizabeth Packard-Arnold, Cameron Beauchamp, Julia Matthews, Holly McCarren, Oxford Chorale, Magdalena Wor, Steven Soph, Kevin Sutton, Patrick Newell, Esther Kulp


----------



## Mandryka

Why are you ignoring Jean Jakob Froberger, Louis Couperin, Esaias Reusner, Diderik Buxterhude, Jacques Champion de Chambonnières, Jean-Henri d'Anglebert . . . ?


----------



## Chilham

Good grief! Have patience.

Froberger arrives on Thursday, d'Anglebert on Friday, Couperin and de Chambonnières on Saturday. Buxtehude was born in 1637, so will arrive next week.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Good grief! Have patience.
> 
> Froberger arrives on Thursday, d'Anglebert on Friday, Couperin and de Chambonnières on Saturday. Buxtehude was born in 1637, so will arrive next week.


But when you said "work of the week for composers born between 1600 and 1632" and then only mentioned that Carissimi thing, it sounded as though you thought that that Carissimi thing is the only piece of music worth hearing from a composer born between 1600 and 1632.


----------



## Chilham

Only one more Level 4 work this week. Lully pushed Carissimi close for top spot. Levels 5, 6 & 7 coming over the coming days.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
No works

*Level 4*
Carissimi, Giacomo: Jephte esp. Final Act
*Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme*

My listening today, although again, I actually listened to this yesterday evening:










Lully: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme

Gustav Leonhardt, La Petite Bande


----------



## Mandryka

I saw the Lully/Molière about 5 years ago. Utterly trivial music! Tolerable in the context of the play.


----------



## Chilham

I'll confess I found that it passed me by a little too but there are others here who, "Love", Lully, especially his ballets. I hope they might contribute a little this week.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
No works

*Level 4*
Carissimi, Giacomo: Jephte esp. Final Act
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme

*Level 5*
*Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Armide
Strozzi, Barbara: Arie, Op. 8 esp. No. 6: "Che si può fare"
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Alceste*

My listening today:










Strozzi: Arie (Excerpts)

Francesco Corti, Emöke Baráth, Il Pomo d'Oro










Lully: Armide

Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale, La Chapelle Royale, Guillemette Laurens, Howard Crook, Véronique Gens, Noémi Rime

If you have access to it, there's an excellent podcast sharing the fascinating story of Barbara Strozzi as part of the BBC's Composer of the Week series.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
No works

*Level 4*
Carissimi, Giacomo: Jephte esp. Final Act
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme

*Level 5*
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Armide
Strozzi, Barbara: Arie, Op. 8 esp. No. 6: "Che si può fare"
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Alceste

*Level 6*
*Lawes, William: The Royall Consort, Sett 2	
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Roland 
Froberger, Johann: Suite No. 20 (Partita) in D, FbWV 620 "Meditation sur ma mort future NB Memento mori Froberger"	
Froberger, Johann: Suite No. 30 (Partita) in A minor, FbWV 630	
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Te Deum	
Froberger, Johann: Suite No. 18 (Partita) in G minor, FbWV 618	
Strozzi, Barbara: Cantate, Ariette e Duetti Op. 2 inc. L'Amante Segreto
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Ballet de la Raillerie	
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Cadus et Hermione	
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Phaëton*

My listening today:










Lawes: Royall Consort Sett No. 2

Latitude 37, Lucinda Moon, Laura Moore, Hannah Lane










Lully: Roland (Highlights)

Christophe Rousset, Les Talens Lyriques, Emiliano Gonzales-Toro, Anders J. Dahlin, Salomé Haller


----------



## Chilham

For today, the Level 7 works that appear in our Talk Classical Favourite Works.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
No works

*Level 4*
Carissimi, Giacomo: Jephte esp. Final Act
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme

*Level 5*
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Armide
Strozzi, Barbara: Arie, Op. 8 esp. No. 6: "Che si può fare"
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Alceste

*Level 6*
Lawes, William: The Royall Consort, Sett 2	
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Roland 
Froberger, Johann: Suite No. 20 (Partita) in D, FbWV 620 "Meditation sur ma mort future NB Memento mori Froberger"	
Froberger, Johann: Suite No. 30 (Partita) in A minor, FbWV 630	
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Te Deum	
Froberger, Johann: Suite No. 18 (Partita) in G minor, FbWV 618	
Strozzi, Barbara: Cantate, Ariette e Duetti Op. 2 inc. L'Amante Segreto
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Ballet de la Raillerie	
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Cadus et Hermione	
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Phaëton

*Level 7*
*Lawes, William: Setts for Viols
Froberger, Johann: Lamentation on the Death of Emperor Ferdinand III
Froberger, Johann: Tombeau Fait à Paris sur le Mort de Monsieur Blancrocher
Schmelzer, Johann Heinrich: Sonatae Unarum Fidium
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Atys
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Acis et Galatée
d'Anglebert, Jean-Henri: Pièces de Clavecin
Rosenmüller, Johann: Sonate da Camera a 5 Stromenti
Cesti, Antonio: La Dori
Legrenzi, Giovanni: Sonate a Due, e Tre
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Persée*

My listening today:










Lully: Atys (Overtures & Airs)

Barockorchester Capriccio, Dominik Kiefer










Lully: Persée (Highlights)

Christophe Rousset, Les Talens Lyriques, Emiliano Gonzales-Toro, Anders J. Dahlin, Salomé Haller


----------



## justekaia

Totally agree with you that Lully is a minor composer. Just a favourite of Louis XIV. This thread is embracing too much in my opinion and not focusing on the important ones and there are many.


----------



## Chilham

justekaia said:


> Totally agree with you that Lully is a minor composer. Just a favourite of Louis XIV. This thread is embracing too much in my opinion and not focusing on the important ones and there are many.


We always knew this week was light on highly recommended works.



Chilham said:


> There are times on this journey when we are inundated with highly recommended works. Similarly, there will be times when the recommendations are there, but few reach high levels. This is one of those weeks.
> 
> So what should we do? Sweep them to one side and press on to the next big composer? I say, "No"!. Purcell, Vivaldi, Handel, Bach and others can wait. The composers we'll look at this week were the pre-eminent composers of their generation and we should take a little time to give their works consideration....


Happy to take on any constructive feedback that could improve the thread. Help me define, "Important ones", and share an example or two of where more focus would help.


----------



## Mandryka

justekaia said:


> Totally agree with you that Lully is a minor composer. Just a favourite of Louis XIV. This thread is embracing too much in my opinion and not focusing on the important ones and there are many.


He's not a minor composer _because _ he was a favourite of Louis XIV and hence his work had influence wherever the Versailles court had influence. Louis XIV's taste was not specially narrow, D'Anglebert worked for him, so did Robert de Visée and Charles Mouton, to take three examples of composers who interest me.

Could we imagine this






without this


----------



## Chilham

Wrapping-up this week a day early with the inevitable, "Dump", of the full list of works for Level 7, intended purely for reference. This list is not 'curated' so may contain errors. Let us know of any gems lurking there. Biber, Buxtehude, Corelli, Purcell and their contemporaries heading our way from tomorrow.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
No works

*Level 4*
Carissimi, Giacomo: Jephte esp. Final Act
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme

*Level 5*
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Armide
Strozzi, Barbara: Arie, Op. 8 esp. No. 6: "Che si può fare"
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Alceste

*Level 6*
Lawes, William: The Royall Consort, Sett 2 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Roland
Froberger, Johann: Suite No. 20 (Partita) in D, FbWV 620 "Meditation sur ma mort future NB Memento mori Froberger" 
Froberger, Johann: Suite No. 30 (Partita) in A minor, FbWV 630 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Te Deum 
Froberger, Johann: Suite No. 18 (Partita) in G minor, FbWV 618 
Strozzi, Barbara: Cantate, Ariette e Duetti Op. 2 inc. L'Amante Segreto
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Ballet de la Raillerie 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Cadus et Hermione 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Phaëton

*Level 7*
Lawes, William: Setts for Viols
Froberger, Johann: Lamentation on the Death of Emperor Ferdinand III
Froberger, Johann: Tombeau Fait à Paris sur le Mort de Monsieur Blancrocher
Schmelzer, Johann Heinrich: Sonatae Unarum Fidium
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Atys
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Acis et Galatée
d'Anglebert, Jean-Henri: Pièces de Clavecin
Rosenmüller, Johann: Sonate da Camera a 5 Stromenti
Cesti, Antonio: La Dori
Legrenzi, Giovanni: Sonate a Due, e Tre
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Persée
Attey, John: The First Book of Ayres 
Cecchini, Angelo: Primavera Urbana col Trionfo d'Amor Pudico 
de la Barca, Pedro Calderón: Celos Aun Del Aire Matan 
Farina, Carlo: Capriccio Stravagante 
Ives, Simon: The Triumph of Peace 
Michna, Adam Václav: Ceská Mariánská Muzika 
Sances, Giovanni: Cantade 
Vittori, Loreto: Galatea 
de Chambonnières, Jacques: Pièces de Clavessin 
Rossi, Michelangelo: Ermina suf Giordano 
Cavalli, Francesco: Musiche sacre concernenti messa, e salmi concertati con istromenti, imni, antifone et sonate 
Kircher, Athanasius: Musurgia Universalis 
Lawes, William: Fantasia Suites 
Lawes, William: The Triumph of Peace 
Marazzoli, Marco: Dal Male il Bene 
Marazzoli, Marco: La Vita Humana 
Ferari, Benedetto: L'Andromeda 
Kittel, Caspar: Cantade und Arien 
Albert, Heinrich: Arien 
Carissimi, Giacomo: Abraham et Isaac 
Carissimi, Giacomo: Jonas 
Carissimi, Giacomo: Judicum Salomonis 
Carissimi, Giacomo: Piangete Ohimè Piangete 
Dassoucy, Charles: Andromède 
Guerre, Michel de la: Le Triumphe de l'Amour 
Sacrati, Francesco: La Finta Pazza 
Sacrati, Francesco: Venere Gelosa 
Staden, Sigmund: Seelewig 
Du Mont, Henry: Cantica Sacra 
Du Mont, Henry: Motets à Deux Voix 
Duarte, Leonara: Seven Sinfonia 
Lambert, Michael: Ballet des Arts 
Lambert, Michael: Ballet Royal de la Nuit 
Hammerschmidt, Andreas: Gesprãche Zwischen Gott und Einer Gláubigen Seeien 
Mace, Thomas: Musick's Monumnet 
Anglesi, Domenico: Il Mondo Festeggiante (Horse Ballet) 
Caproli, Carlo: Le Nozze di Peleo e di Teti 
Ben Jonson: Have You Seen But a Whyte Lille Grow 
Gibbons, Christopher: Cupid and Death 
Mollier, Louis de: Ballet d'Alcidiene 
Cazzati, Maurizio: Cantate Morali e Spirituali 
Cazzati, Maurizio: Sonatas Op. 35 
Cazzati, Maurizio: Trattenimento per Camera d'Arie, Correnti, e Balletti 
Froberger, Johann: Lamentation on the Death of King Ferdinand IV 
Rosenmüller, Johann: Paduanen, Alemanden, Couranten, Balletten, Sarabanden 
Strozzi, Barbara: Sacri Musicali Affetti (Motets) 
Strozzi, Barbara: Primo Libro de'Madrigali 
Zéspedes, Juan García de: Guaracha "Ay Que Me Abraso" 
Leonarda, Isabella: Sonata Duodecima 
Leonarda, Isabella: 12 Sonatas Op. 16 esp. 3. Sonata Terza 5. Soli Violini
Poglietti, Alessandro: Rossignolo 
Locke, Matthew: Be Thou Exulted Lord 
Locke, Matthew: Cupid and Death 
Locke, Matthew: Music for His Majesty's Sagbutts and Cornetts 
Locke, Matthew: Psyche 
Locke, Matthew: The Tempest 
Cesti, Antonio: Il Pomo d'Oro 
Cesti, Antonio: Cleopatra 
Cesti, Antonio: Le Disgrazie d'Amore 
Cesti, Antonio: Nettuno e Flora 
Cesti, Antonio: Orontea 
Melani, Jacopo: Ercole in Tebe 
Melani, Jacopo: Il Girello 
Weelkes, Thomas: As Vesta was from Latmos Hill descending 
Weelkes, Thomas: Ayeres or Phantastique Spirites for Three Voices 
Weelkes, Thomas: Give Ear, O Lord 
Weelkes, Thomas: Madrigals of 5 & 6 Parts 
Weelkes, Thomas: O Care, Thou Wilt Despatch Me 
Bontempi, Giovanni: Daphne 
Peranda, Marco: Daphne 
Couperin, Louis: Pièces d'Orgue 
Legrenzi, Giovanni: Acclamationi Divote (Book I) 
Legrenzi, Giovanni: Concerti Musicali per uso de Chiesa 
Legrenzi, Giovanni: Harmonia d'Affetti Devoti 
Legrenzi, Giovanni: Il Giustino 
Legrenzi, Giovanni: L'Achile in Sciro 
Legrenzi, Giovanni: Nino il Giusto 
Legrenzi, Giovanni: Sonate da Chiesa e da Camera 
Keril, Johann Kaspar: L'Oronte 
Keril, Johann Kaspar: Missae Sex 
Cambert, Robert: La Muette Ingrate 
Cambert, Robert: La Pastorale d'Issy 
Cambert, Robert: Pomone 
Pellavicino, Carlo: L'Amazone Corsara 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Amadis 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Ballet d'Alcidiane 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Ballet de Flore 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Ballet de la Naissance de Vénus 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Ballet de la Nuit 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Ballet des Amours Déguisés 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Ballet des Arts 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Ballet des Muses 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: De Profundis 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: George Dandin 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Hercule Amoureux 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Isis 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: L'Amour Médecin 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: La Galanterie du Temps 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Le Marriage Forcé 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Le Triomphe d'Amour 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Miserere 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Pomone 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Proserpine 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Psyché, a Tragédie-Ballet 
Lully, Jean-Baptiste: Thésée 
Nivers, Guillaume: Livre d'Orgue 
Nivers, Guillaume: Troisième Livre d'Orgue

I'm heading back up the list for my listening today:










Lully: Alceste

Christophe Rousset, Les Talens Lyriques


----------



## Mandryka

Peter Pears recorded the Fellows arrangement of Jonson’s Have You Seen But a Whyte Lille Grow with Julian Bream - it’s a high point.

Louis Couperin’s organ music is not, I think, the best way in to his music. 

There’s just one recording which has made me see the point of Nivers’ music - with Kei Koito and Dominique Vellard.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Peter Pears recorded the Fellows arrangement of Jonson's Have You Seen But a Whyte Lille Grow with Julian Bream - it's a high point...


Seems like I've categorised the Jonson/Johnson work by date of composition, not date of composer's birth.


----------



## Chilham

So, we're six weeks in and the thread generates about 500-views per day. I assume the majority of those will be 'bots' but even so, despite relatively low participation in the thread, there must be some interest in the journey. Thank you to Mandryka and others who have shared their extensive knowledge. It's really valuable.

If you are following the thread, you'll be anticipating the 'score' of major composers heading our way at the end of the seventeenth century, but as we prepare for that onslaught, let's first steady ourselves with a week of the most excellent composers born 1634-66. First-up, the most highly recommended work for this week:

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Purcell, Henry: Dido and Aeneas

My listening this morning:










Purcell: Dido and Aeneas

Emmanuelle Haïm, Le Concert d'Astrée

Other options here.


----------



## justekaia

Chilham said:


> So, we're six weeks in and the thread generates about 500-views per day. I assume the majority of those will be 'bots' but even so, despite relatively low participation in the thread, there must be some interest in the journey. Thank you to Mandryka and others who have shared their extensive knowledge. It's really valuable.
> 
> If you are following the thread, you'll be anticipating the 'score' of major composers heading our way at the end of the seventeenth century, but as we prepare for that onslaught, let's first steady ourselves with a week of the most excellent composers born 1634-66. First-up, the most highly recommended work for this week:
> 
> *Level 1*
> No works
> 
> *Level 2*
> Purcell, Henry: Dido and Aeneas
> 
> My listening this morning:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Purcell: Dido and Aeneas
> 
> Emmanuelle Haïm, Le Concert d'Astrée
> 
> Other options here.


Let me just state yours is a great thread and as a longtime listener to all these composers I managed to rekindle my interest for all the major composers you feature. There are some new exciting recordings (De la Rue F.E.) of some of these and it shows that passion for this music will never die.So like you say there is certainly deep interest in your journey but probably most of us, including myself, do not have the level to intervene on a technical level.Being of Flemish origin i have always been particularly drawn to old music. It is part of our DNA. So don't give up like PG sings, but continue to stimulate our senses.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> Louis Couperin's organ music is not, I think, the best way in to his music.


Recall that it has been questioned if the Louis Couperin organ music and harpsichord music has been composed by the same person. They are indeed very different from each other.



Mandryka said:


> There's just one recording which has made me see the point of Nivers' music - with Kei Koito and Dominique Vellard.


Thanks, I shall try to investigate this if possible.

Edit: This one?
https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...s-orgue-j-boizard-a-saint-michel-en-thierache


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> Recall that it has been questioned if the Louis Couperin organ music and harpsichord music has been composed by the same person. They are indeed very different from each other.
> 
> Thanks, I shall try to investigate this if possible.
> 
> Edit: This one?
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...s-orgue-j-boizard-a-saint-michel-en-thierache


Yes that's the Nivers.

I once read something by Davitt Moroney where he said that there's more evidence that the organ music is by Louis Couperin than there is that the harpsichord music is by Louis Couperin. I will keep out of the debate!


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> Yes that's the Nivers.
> 
> I once read something by Davitt Moroney where he said that there's more evidence that the organ music is by Louis Couperin than there is that the harpsichord music is by Louis Couperin. I will keep out of the debate!


Yes, and this is surprising, since one should think, that the harpsichord music was composed by someone close to Froberger (Louis Couperin), while the organ music has very little in common with Froberger's organ music.


----------



## new but obsessed

I'm enjoying the Haim recording of Dido and Aeneas (and inspiring me to re-read Virgil!). I often find it hard to listen to an opera without seeing it first as I struggle to understand the music without the narrative and the acting, but this has plenty of good music that's easy enough to get into. Hopefully I can see a performance one day!

I'm struck by how much the music reminds me of Church music, or at least my vague stereotype of it. Is it the case that Purcell or Baroque music in general skews towards the tradition of church music? Or on the other hand, is the church music that we've carried through today disproportionately from the Baroque era, and in its day that church music was fashioned after contemporary popular music? 

Or am I just mischaracterizing all of this? A distinct possibility. 

Thanks!


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Purcell, Henry: Dido and Aeneas
*Corelli, Arcangelo: Concerto Grosso in G Minor Op. 6 esp. No. 4, No. 8, 'Fatto per la notte di Natale'*

*Level 3*
*Pachelbel, Johann: Canon and Gigue in D*

*Level 4*
*Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "Passacaglia"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Glorious Mysteries"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Joyful Mysteries"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Sorrowful Mysteries" esp. Sonata No. 10*

I listened to Corelli's excellent Concerto Grossi only last month so my listening today:










Biber: Rosary (Mystery) Sonatas

Rachel Podger, Marcin Swiatkiewicz & David Miller


----------



## marlow

Emmanuel Haim with Nat Dessay in Handel: Il Trionfo del tempo e del disingann


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> *Level 1*
> No works
> 
> *Level 2*
> Purcell, Henry: Dido and Aeneas
> *Corelli, Arcangelo: Concerto Grosso in G Minor Op. 6 esp. No. 4, No. 8, 'Fatto per la notte di Natale'*
> 
> *Level 3*
> *Pachelbel, Johann: Canon and Gigue in D*
> 
> *Level 4*
> *Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "Passacaglia"
> Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Glorious Mysteries"
> Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Joyful Mysteries"
> Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Sorrowful Mysteries" esp. Sonata No. 10*
> 
> I listened to Corelli's excellent Concerto Grossi only last month so my listening today:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biber: Rosary (Mystery) Sonatas
> 
> Rachel Podger, Marcin Swiatkiewicz & David Miller


Normally I don't like spoken word in music but I really enjoyed the recording with Pavlo Beznoziuk, which has readings in English from a rosary prayer book contemporary with the music. The sonatas are functional music - an aid to prayer.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Purcell, Henry: Dido and Aeneas
Corelli, Arcangelo: Concerto Grosso in G Minor Op. 6 esp. No. 4, No. 8, 'Fatto per la notte di Natale'

*Level 3*
Pachelbel, Johann: Canon and Gigue in D

*Level 4*
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "Passacaglia"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Glorious Mysteries"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Joyful Mysteries"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Sorrowful Mysteries" esp. Sonata No. 10
*Corelli, Arcangelo: Violin Sonatas Op. 5 esp. No. 5, No. 9
Purcell, Henry: King Arthur *

*Level 5*
*Buxtehude, Dietrich: Membra Jesu Nostri BuxWV 75*

I listened to this yesterday evening:










Buxtehude: Membra Jesu Nostri

Harry Christophers, The Sixteen

I've just embarked on this. Perhaps a journey in itself:










Corelli: Violin Sonatas Op. 5

Andrew Manze, Richard Egarr


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Purcell, Henry: Dido and Aeneas
Corelli, Arcangelo: Concerto Grosso in G Minor Op. 6 esp. No. 4, No. 8, 'Fatto per la notte di Natale'

*Level 3*
Pachelbel, Johann: Canon and Gigue in D

*Level 4*
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "Passacaglia"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Glorious Mysteries"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Joyful Mysteries"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Sorrowful Mysteries" esp. Sonata No. 10
Corelli, Arcangelo: Violin Sonatas Op. 5 esp. No. 5, No. 9
Purcell, Henry: King Arthur

*Level 5*
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Membra Jesu Nostri BuxWV 75
*Purcell, Henry: Hail! Bright Cecilia! Ode for St. Cecilia's Day	
Purcell, Henry: Fairy Queen	
Buxtehude, Dieterich: Preludes for Organ, BuxWV 136-154 esp. BuxWV 149
Purcell, Henry: My Heart is Inditing	
Purcell, Henry: Fantasias for Viols	
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Te Deum	
Purcell, Henry: Ode to Queen Mary's Birthday "Come Ye Sons of Art Away"	
Purcell, Henry: Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary*

I have a lot of time on my hands today so my listening:










Purcell: The Fairy Queen

Paul McCreesh, Carolyn Sampson, Anna Dennis, Mhairi Lawson, Ashley Riches, Roderick Williams, Gabrieli Consort










Purcell: Fantasias for Viols

Jordi Savall, Hesperion XX










Purcell: Hail! Bright Cecilia! Ode for St. Cecilia's Day

Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent










Purcell: Ode to Queen Mary's Birthday "Come Ye Sons of Art Away" & Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary

Sir Stephen Cleobury, Academy of Ancient Music, Choir of King's College, Cambridge










Charpentier: Te Deum

William Christie, Les Arts Florissants


----------



## Mandryka

Well that prompted me to listen to some Buxtehude played by Harald Vogel, and Harnoncourt playing the Purcell. The Harnoncourt is really sensual and melting - quite different from Savall’s rather severe conception.


----------



## Mandryka

Also interesting to think about what's happening in yesterday's Corelli op 5 on the one hand, and the Buxtehude organ music and Purcell viol music on the other. 

The Purcell and Buxtehude are deep, in the sense of containing many simultaneous independent and significant musical strands. There is an inner life to this music, it's not just a surface of melody. 

The Corelli is basically tunes and violin swagger with a bit of keyboard tinkle in the background. 

I think Corelli was at the beginning of the most significant deterioration in the history of classical music. Classical music doesn't really thoroughly recover until the middle of the 20th century.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Also interesting to think about what's happening in yesterday's Corelli op 5 on the one hand, and the Buxtehude organ music and Purcell viol music on the other.
> 
> The Purcell and Buxtehude are deep, in the sense of containing many simultaneous independent and significant musical strands. There is an inner life to this music, it's not just a surface of melody.
> 
> The Corelli is basically tunes and violin swagger with a bit of keyboard tinkle in the background.
> 
> I think Corelli was at the beginning of the most significant deterioration in the history of classical music. Classical music doesn't really thoroughly recover until the middle of the 20th century.


Interesting observation. For myself, I've enjoyed both Corelli and Purcell.

Adding one more today:










Purcell: My Heart is Inditing

VOCES8, Les Inventions


----------



## new but obsessed

Mandryka said:


> The Corelli is basically tunes and violin swagger with a bit of keyboard tinkle in the background.
> 
> I think Corelli was at the beginning of the most significant deterioration in the history of classical music. Classical music doesn't really thoroughly recover until the middle of the 20th century.


Hi Mandryka. This is a very intriguing statement. I'm not sure what you mean though. I'm really mostly familiar with the Classical and Romantic periods, which would fall into the "deteriorated" eras. So I'm hoping you could explain a bit more what that deterioration is, where the music has deteriorated, and what I can find in post-war music that shows the recovery.

I'm guessing you're talking about the relative shallowness of tune-heavy, song-style music that's less intellectually or artistically adventurous than simply aesthetically pretty? This is what I think of many forgettable musical showtunes from mediocre musicals, for example, and I see some parallels in the song structures of older operas.

Or, in rock music, the formulaic use of seemingly "virtuosic" guitar playing, and long guitar solos, or the exaggerated drum solos of all the generic and boring hard rock and arena bands, which masks the fact that the music is lacking in the thing that makes the best music, even if that music is played with less bombastic virtuosity. CGI fireworks, but no real light.

Anyway, eager to read your response.


----------



## Mandryka

new but obsessed said:


> Hi Mandryka. This is a very intriguing statement. I'm not sure what you mean though. I'm really mostly familiar with the Classical and Romantic periods, which would fall into the "deteriorated" eras. So I'm hoping you could explain a bit more what that deterioration is, where the music has deteriorated, and what I can find in post-war music that shows the recovery.
> 
> I'm guessing you're talking about the relative shallowness of tune-heavy, song-style music that's less intellectually or artistically adventurous than simply aesthetically pretty? This is what I think of many forgettable musical showtunes from mediocre musicals, for example, and I see some parallels in the song structures of older operas.
> 
> Or, in rock music, the formulaic use of seemingly "virtuosic" guitar playing, and long guitar solos, or the exaggerated drum solos of all the generic and boring hard rock and arena bands, which masks the fact that the music is lacking in the thing that makes the best music, even if that music is played with less bombastic virtuosity. CGI fireworks, but no real light.
> 
> Anyway, eager to read your response.


I don't think this is the place for the discussion. I maybe shouldn't have commented on this thread about it.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Purcell, Henry: Dido and Aeneas
Corelli, Arcangelo: Concerto Grosso in G Minor Op. 6 esp. No. 4, No. 8, 'Fatto per la notte di Natale'

*Level 3*
Pachelbel, Johann: Canon and Gigue in D

*Level 4*
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "Passacaglia"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Glorious Mysteries"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Joyful Mysteries"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Sorrowful Mysteries" esp. Sonata No. 10
Corelli, Arcangelo: Violin Sonatas Op. 5 esp. No. 5, No. 9
Purcell, Henry: King Arthur

*Level 5*
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Membra Jesu Nostri BuxWV 75
Purcell, Henry: Hail! Bright Cecilia! Ode for St. Cecilia's Day	
Purcell, Henry: Fairy Queen	
Buxtehude, Dieterich: Preludes for Organ, BuxWV 136-154 esp. BuxWV 149
Purcell, Henry: My Heart is Inditing	
Purcell, Henry: Fantasias for Viols	
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Te Deum	
Purcell, Henry: Ode to Queen Mary's Birthday "Come Ye Sons of Art Away"	
Purcell, Henry: Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary
*Corelli, Arcangelo: Trio Sonatas Op. 3 esp. No. 9
Purcell, Henry: Sonatas of III and IV Parts inc. IV Parts No. 9 "Golden Sonata"*

*Level 6*
*Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Missa Salisburgensis 
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Ein Feste Burg Ist Unser Gott BuxWV 184
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Médée
Scarlatti, Alessandro: L'Arianna
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Battalia à 10
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Jubilate Domino
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Orphée Descendent aux Enfers
Stradella, Alessandro: San Giovanni Battista
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Abendmusiken
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Gott Fähret Auf Mit Jauchzen
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: La Reniement de St Pierre 
Pachelbel, Johann: Acht Chorãle Preludes
Marais, Marin: Pièces en Trio
Purcell, Henry: Abdelazar*

My listening today:










Corelli: Sonata de Chiesa a Tre Op. 3 No. 9

Pavlo Beznosiuk, The Avison Ensemble










Purcell: Trio Sonatas in IV Parts No. 9 "Golden Sonata"

Matthew Halls, Retrospect Trio










Biber: Missa Salisburgensis	& Battalia à 10

Jordi Savall, Le Concert des Nations, La Capella Reial De Catalunya










Charpentier: Médée (Highlights)

William Christie, Bernard Delétré, François Bazola, Isabelle Desrochers, Jean-Claude Sarragosse, Jean-Yves Ravoux, Katalin Károlyi, Les Arts Florissants, Lorraine Hunt Lieberson, Marie-Noëlle De Callataÿ, Mark Padmore, Monique Zanetti, Noémi Rime, Sophie Daneman










Scarlatti: L'Arianna

Kate Lindsey, Arcangelo & Jonathan Cohen


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> I think Corelli was at the beginning of the most significant deterioration in the history of classical music. Classical music doesn't really thoroughly recover until the middle of the 20th century.


Highly provocative statement equally provocative as this:



Captainnumber36 said:


> Art in Classical Didn't Start till Romanticism
> 
> That's when composers really started expressing depth in their music rather than being commissioned to create music for an event.
> That's my opinion, what do you think?


----------



## hammeredklavier

Mandryka said:


> I think Corelli was at the beginning of the most significant deterioration in the history of classical music. Classical music doesn't really thoroughly recover until the middle of the 20th century.


How? Can you elaborate on this a bit more?


----------



## marlow

Unusual take on Mr Henry Purcell. What's not to like?


----------



## Mandryka

hammeredklavier said:


> How? Can you elaborate on this a bit more?


Start another thread, out of respect to Chilham


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> Highly provocative statement equally provocative as this:


Premont, do you think the Biber sonatas are more contrapuntally interesting than the Corelli op 5?

Dantone says that Corelli op 5 are church sonatas, I don't know if that's in the score. And I guess the Biber rosary sonatas are church sonatas too. According to Dagmar Glüxam, in church sonatas God, devotion, suffering, pain, penance, and respectful restraint were central concepts. She doesn't provide a note to support that. Listening now to Dantone play the op 5 and I don't know if I'm hearing that, it's hard to say. I just don't know how you would avoid theatricality in this music.

Or is the idea of a church sonata just a formal one, alternating slow and fast movements?

(Chilham - if you don't want this here just say and I'll delete. But it may provide a bit of interesting context.)


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> ... (Chilham - if you don't want this here just say and I'll delete. But it may provide a bit of interesting context.)


Carry on. All good.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> Premont, do you think the Biber sonatas are more contrapuntally interesting than the Corelli op 5?


Neither Biber's violin sonatas nor Corelli's violin sonatas contain much real counterpoint, and essentially they are homophonic = melody (often very elaborated) and accompaniment (basso continuo). The keyboard player may in both cases add some perfunctory counterpoint, but this doesn't essentially change the music. And of course a baroque melody is meant to be played in way that it express the presumed affect of the piece. This leads to rhetorical - theatrical if you want - playing, just in the same way an actor on stage displays a character different from himself.

In renaissance music and in much baroque music the primary interest was in the counterpoint, which was designed to display the desired affects, and therefore the region of interest wasn't just the "melody" as such, but rather how is was used in the polyphonic web. This is also why instruments with excessive expressive powers were without great interest in the renaissance and baroque ages. They only needed to clarify the counterpoint. All this was more or less lost, when homophony took over in some baroque music and in classical and romantic music. This is why more expressive instruments were needed. One may call this decadence, but it is just another way of expression. Some are captivated by a melting melody, others prefer contrapuntal music. I belong to the latter.


----------



## Mandryka

Maybe it’s just that late 17th century Italianate sonatas for violin and keyboard weren’t particularly contrapuntal. I think there was more contrapuntal music being written, even in the Italian style - sonatas with three and more parts, canzoni da sonare etc.

There’s a question which hammeredklavier may be able to answer: how is the Italianate baroque two instrument sonata different from violin sonatas in classical style?


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Purcell, Henry: Dido and Aeneas
Corelli, Arcangelo: Concerto Grosso in G Minor Op. 6 esp. No. 4, No. 8, 'Fatto per la notte di Natale'

*Level 3*
Pachelbel, Johann: Canon and Gigue in D

*Level 4*
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "Passacaglia"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Glorious Mysteries"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Joyful Mysteries"	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Sorrowful Mysteries" esp. Sonata No. 10
Corelli, Arcangelo: Violin Sonatas Op. 5 esp. No. 5, No. 9
Purcell, Henry: King Arthur

*Level 5*
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Membra Jesu Nostri BuxWV 75
Purcell, Henry: Hail! Bright Cecilia! Ode for St. Cecilia's Day	
Purcell, Henry: Fairy Queen	
Buxtehude, Dieterich: Preludes for Organ, BuxWV 136-154 esp. BuxWV 149
Purcell, Henry: My Heart is Inditing	
Purcell, Henry: Fantasias for Viols	
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Te Deum	
Purcell, Henry: Ode to Queen Mary's Birthday "Come Ye Sons of Art Away"	
Purcell, Henry: Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary
Corelli, Arcangelo: Trio Sonatas Op. 3 esp. No. 9
Purcell, Henry: Sonatas of III and IV Parts inc. IV Parts No. 9 "Golden Sonata"

*Level 6*
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Missa Salisburgensis 
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Ein Feste Burg Ist Unser Gott BuxWV 184
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Médée
Scarlatti, Alessandro: L'Arianna
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Battalia à 10
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Jubilate Domino
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Orphée Descendent aux Enfers
Stradella, Alessandro: San Giovanni Battista
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Abendmusiken
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Gott Fähret Auf Mit Jauchzen
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: La Reniement de St Pierre 
Pachelbel, Johann: Acht Chorãle Preludes
Marais, Marin: Pièces en Trio
Purcell, Henry: Abdelazar
*Purcell, Henry: Chacone in G Minor for Four Strings
Fux, Johann Joseph: Constanza e Fortezza
Kuhnau, Johann: Biblische Historien esp. The Combat Between David and Goliath
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Il Trionfo dell'Onore*

*Level 7*
*Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Harmonia Artificiosa-Ariosa	
Pachelbel, Johann: Hexachordum Apollinis	
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Messe de Minuet Pour Noël H.9	
Marais, Marin: Pièces de Violes inc. Book 2 inc. "Couplets de Folies"
Stradella, Allessandro: San Giovanni Battista	
Torelli, Giuseppe: Concerto Grosso Op. 8	
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Le Malade Imaginaire	
Purcell, Henry: Rejoice in the Lord Always "Bell Anthem"	
Corelli, Arcangelo: Concerto for Oboe and Strings	
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Il Mitridate Eupatone (Opera)	
Jacquet de la Guerre, Elisabeth: Céphale et Procris	
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Sonate Violino Solo	
Draghi, Antonio: Il Nodo Gordiano	
Krieger, Adam: Arien	
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Klag-Lied (Elegy)	
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Chaconne in E minor, BuxWV 160	
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ, BuxWV 196	
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Ich dank dir, lieber Herre, BuxWV 194	
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Singet dem Herrn ein neues Lied, BuxWV 98	
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Alles, was ihr tut mit Worten oder Werken, BuxWV 4	
Melani, Alessandro: L'Empio Punito	
Stradella, Alessandro: Barcheggio II	
Stradella, Alessandro: Sonata di Viole	
Stradella, Alessandro: Susannah	
Stradella, Alessandro: Vola, Vola in Atri Petti	
Draghi, Giovanni: Psyche	
Printz, Wolfgand: Historische Beschreibung der Edelen Sing-und-Kling-Kunst*

I have a confession to make. I don't enjoy organ music. I possess a couple of albums that do tick a box for me (Olivier Latry's Bach to the Future and Latry again playing Saint-Saëns' Symphony No. 3 with Christoph Eschenbach and the Philadelphia Orchestra), but for the rest, it rarely sits well with me. As a result, I tend to listen to transcriptions and enjoyed this yesterday evening:










Buxtehude: Preludes for Organ (Transcr. A Stradal for Piano)

Meilin Ai

I'll explore today to see if I can find some of Buxtehude's organ music that I enjoy.


----------



## Mandryka

Hexachordum Apollinis is worth a listen, especially the aria sebaldina. The Kuhnau can be fun, and has some excellent musical moments in it I think. Marais is popular certainly - maybe start with the suite d’un goût étranger.


----------



## Mandryka

Mandryka said:


> Premont, do you think the Biber sonatas are more contrapuntally interesting than the Corelli op 5?
> 
> Dantone says that Corelli op 5 are church sonatas, I don't know if that's in the score. And I guess the Biber rosary sonatas are church sonatas too. According to Dagmar Glüxam, in church sonatas God, devotion, suffering, pain, penance, and respectful restraint were central concepts. She doesn't provide a note to support that. Listening now to Dantone play the op 5 and I don't know if I'm hearing that, it's hard to say. I just don't know how you would avoid theatricality in this music.
> 
> Or is the idea of a church sonata just a formal one, alternating slow and fast movements?
> 
> (Chilham - if you don't want this here just say and I'll delete. But it may provide a bit of interesting context.)


I now wonder if it's just a mistake to say that Corelli op 5 are church sonatas. Listening now to Corelli op 1, which are explicitly designated sonate da chiesa, and it seems less theatrical -- as suited to liturgy as the Kuhnau biblical sonatas certainly -- Kuhnau himself probably influenced by Italian style.

Corelli Op 1 is very agreeable! Every bit as agreeable as the Biber Rosary sonatas, I would say -- same sort of thing! I couldn't put a cigarette paper between them.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Hexachordum Apollinis is worth a listen, especially the aria sebaldina. The Kuhnau can be fun, and has some excellent musical moments in it I think. Marais is popular certainly - maybe start with the suite d'un goût étranger.


Thanks for the pointers. Really helpful

This is a little, "Curate's Egg", to my ear. Good in parts:










Pachelbel: Hexachordum Apollinis

Edoardo Bellotti

This I'm enjoying very much:










Kuhnau: Musicalische Vorstellung Einiger Biblischer Historien

Claudio Colombo


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> I now wonder if it's just a mistake to say that Corelli op 5 are church sonatas. Listening now to Corelli op 1, which are explicitly designated sonate da chiesa, and it seems less theatrical -- as suited to liturgy as the Kuhnau biblical sonatas certainly -- Kuhnau himself probably influenced by Italian style.
> 
> Corelli Op 1 is very agreeable! Every bit as agreeable as the Biber Rosary sonatas, I would say -- same sort of thing! I couldn't put a cigarette paper between them.


Corelli's Op. 5 sonatas are a mixture in equal proportion of church and chamber styles, with a lot of convergence between the two, a common practice of the time. His sonatas are cast in much the same forms and styles as their predecessors. So-called church sonatas were played as much outside the church as inside it; the designation refers more to stylistic norms (the inclusion of strict fugal counterpoint in the 'church' style) than to location. I've read somewhere that Corelli, as a good Italian, introduced an element of lyricism into the church sonata found before only in vocal music.

Corelli did not use the term sonata da chiesa (church sonata) to describe his Op. 1 Sonatas. He referred to them as _Sonate a trè_. They weren't conceived for use in church although if we're to believe Johann Mattheson they could be used to accompany worship.

Enjoy the ciggy!


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> This I'm enjoying very much:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kuhnau: Musicalische Vorstellung Einiger Biblischer Historien
> 
> Claudio Colombo


I'm glad to hear you are enjoying Claudio Colombo -- I think his style works in a satisfactory way in music from this period. And if you want to hear this music on a modern piano, I don't think there's anywhere else to go.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Thanks for the pointers. Really helpful
> 
> This is a little, "Curate's Egg", to my ear. Good in parts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pachelbel: Hexachordum Apollinis
> 
> Edoardo Bellotti


Yeah well I feel the same about Bellotti. Try this


----------



## Mandryka

More Kuhnau Bible sonatas on piano, this time from a famous romantic pianist on a real piano, I think Colombo plays an electric piano.


----------



## SanAntone

Chilham said:


> Kuhnau: Musicalische Vorstellung Einiger Biblischer Historien
> 
> Claudio Colombo


I am not sure "Claudio Columbo" is a real pianist. The recordings sound like MIDI versions.


----------



## premont

SanAntone said:


> I am not sure "Claudio Columbo" is a real pianist. The recordings sound like MIDI versions.


Sure, my impression too, and for that reason my interest in his encyclopaedic discography is limited.


----------



## Chilham

Yep. There are remarkably few videos of him playing and those there are seem very unconvincing. My bad.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Yep. There are remarkably few videos of him playing and those there are seem very unconvincing. My bad.


Colombo talks about his recording process here

http://www.claudiocolombo.net/acustiche.htm


----------



## Chilham

The full list for this week.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Purcell, Henry: Dido and Aeneas
Corelli, Arcangelo: Concerto Grosso in G Minor Op. 6 esp. No. 4, No. 8, 'Fatto per la notte di Natale'

*Level 3*
Pachelbel, Johann: Canon and Gigue in D

*Level 4*
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "Passacaglia" 
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Glorious Mysteries" 
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Joyful Mysteries" 
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Sorrowful Mysteries" esp. Sonata No. 10
Corelli, Arcangelo: Violin Sonatas Op. 5 esp. No. 5, No. 9
Purcell, Henry: King Arthur

*Level 5*
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Membra Jesu Nostri BuxWV 75
Purcell, Henry: Hail! Bright Cecilia! Ode for St. Cecilia's Day 
Purcell, Henry: Fairy Queen 
Buxtehude, Dieterich: Preludes for Organ, BuxWV 136-154 esp. BuxWV 149
Purcell, Henry: My Heart is Inditing 
Purcell, Henry: Fantasias for Viols 
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Te Deum 
Purcell, Henry: Ode to Queen Mary's Birthday "Come Ye Sons of Art Away" 
Purcell, Henry: Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary
Corelli, Arcangelo: Trio Sonatas Op. 3 esp. No. 9
Purcell, Henry: Sonatas of III and IV Parts inc. IV Parts No. 9 "Golden Sonata"

*Level 6*
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Missa Salisburgensis
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Ein Feste Burg Ist Unser Gott BuxWV 184
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Médée
Scarlatti, Alessandro: L'Arianna
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Battalia à 10
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Jubilate Domino
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Orphée Descendent aux Enfers
Stradella, Alessandro: San Giovanni Battista
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Abendmusiken
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Gott Fähret Auf Mit Jauchzen
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: La Reniement de St Pierre
Pachelbel, Johann: Acht Chorãle Preludes
Marais, Marin: Pièces en Trio
Purcell, Henry: Abdelazar
Purcell, Henry: Chacone in G Minor for Four Strings
Fux, Johann Joseph: Constanza e Fortezza
Kuhnau, Johann: Biblische Historien esp. The Combat Between David and Goliath
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Il Trionfo dell'Onore

*Level 7*
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Harmonia Artificiosa-Ariosa 
Pachelbel, Johann: Hexachordum Apollinis 
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Messe de Minuet Pour Noël H.9 
Marais, Marin: Pièces de Violes inc. Book 2 inc. "Couplets de Folies"
Stradella, Allessandro: San Giovanni Battista 
Torelli, Giuseppe: Concerto Grosso Op. 8 
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Le Malade Imaginaire 
Purcell, Henry: Rejoice in the Lord Always "Bell Anthem" 
Corelli, Arcangelo: Concerto for Oboe and Strings 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Il Mitridate Eupatone
Jacquet de la Guerre, Elisabeth: Céphale et Procris 
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Sonate Violino Solo 
Draghi, Antonio: Il Nodo Gordiano 
Krieger, Adam: Arien 
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Klag-Lied
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Chaconne in E minor, BuxWV 160 
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ, BuxWV 196 
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Ich dank dir, lieber Herre, BuxWV 194 
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Singet dem Herrn ein neues Lied, BuxWV 98 
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Alles, was ihr tut mit Worten oder Werken, BuxWV 4 
Melani, Alessandro: L'Empio Punito 
Stradella, Alessandro: Barcheggio II 
Stradella, Alessandro: Sonata di Viole 
Stradella, Alessandro: Susannah 
Stradella, Alessandro: Vola, Vola in Atri Petti 
Draghi, Giovanni: Psyche 
Printz, Wolfgand: Historische Beschreibung der Edelen Sing-und-Kling-Kunst
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: David et Jonathas 
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Filius Prodigus 
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Judith 
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Le Marriage Forcé 
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Missa Assumpta est Maria 
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Motet pour une Longue Offrande 
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Philomèle 
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: The Christmas Oratorio Frigidae Noctes Umbra H.414 
Reincken, Johann: Hortus Musicus 
Thelle, Johann: Adan und Eva 
Blow, John: Hail Monarch, Sprung of Race Divine 
Blow, John: The Glorious Day is Come 
Blow, John: The Lord God ia a Sun and Shield 
Collasse, Pascal: Ballet des Saisons 
Collasse, Pascal: Thétis et Pélée 
Muffat, Georg: Armonico Tributo 
Muffat, Georg: Floilegium Primum 
Muffat, Georg: Floregium Secundum 
Pachelbel, Johann: Musikalische Sterbens-Gedanken 
Pachelbel, Johann: Tocatta in E Minor 
Steffani, Agostino: Henrico Leone 
Steffani, Agostino: Tassilone 
Westhoff, Johan Paul von: Sonata for Violin and Continuo iii. Imitazione della Compane
Erlebach, Philipp Heinrich: Gott Geheiligte Sing-Stunde 
Torelli, Giuseppe: Christmas Eve Concerto 
Torelli, Giuseppe: Concerti a Quattro Op. 5 
Torelli, Giuseppe: Concerti da Camera 
Torelli, Giuseppe: Concerti Musicali Op. 6 
Torelli, Giuseppe: Sonate a 3 
Purcell, Henry: Evening Hymn 
Purcell, Henry: Dioclesian 
Purcell, Henry: Hear My Prayer. Oh Lord 
Purcell, Henry: I Gave Her Cakes 
Purcell, Henry: Oedipus, King of Thebes, Z. 583/2 "Music for a while"
Purcell, Henry: Pavan in G Minor 
Purcell, Henry: Praise the Lord, O Jersusalem 
Purcell, Henry: The Indian Queen 
Purcell, Henry: The Prophetess 
Purcell, Henry: They That Go Down to the Sea in Ships 
Purcell, Henry: Trumpet Tune and Air 
Purcell, Henry: Welcome to All the Pleasures 
Purcell, Henry: Minuet from Keyboard Suite No. 1 in G 
Purcell, Henry: Nymphs and Sherpherds Come Away 
Purcell, Henry: Rondeau in D Minor 
Purcell, Henry: Trumpet Concerto in D Major 
Fux, Johann Joseph: Concentus Musico-Instrumentalis 
Fux, Johann Joseph: Cristo nell'orto 
Kuhnau, Johann: Neue Clavier-Übung 
Kuhnau, Johann: Frische Clavier Früchte 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Toccata da Cimbalo 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Gil Equivoci Nel Sembiante 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Il Pirro e Demetrio 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Il Tigrani 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: L'Assurzione della Beate Virgine Maria 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: L'Honestā Negli Amore 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: La Caduta de' Decemviri 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: La Giuditta (Opera) 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: La Griselda (Opera) 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Le Teodora Augusta (Opera) 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Lidio e Clori, Ah! si, purtroppo è vero 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Sonata a Quattro in D Minor 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Stabat Mater 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: St Celcilia Mass 
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Motets 
Taglioni, Giulio: Concerti a Cinque 
Perti, Giacomo Antonio: Oreste in Argo 
Jacquet de la Guerre, Elisabeth: Pièces de Clavessin 
Jacquet de la Guerre, Elisabeth: Violin Sonata No. 1 in D Minor esp. iv. Presto
Faggioli, Michelangelo: La Cilla

The highlight of the week so far has been Charpentier's Médée. Some 'odds-and-ends' for me today including:










Purcell: Welcome All the Pleasures

Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent










Charpentier: Missa "Assumpta Est Maria"

William Christie, Les Arts Florissants, Véronique Gens, Gilles Ragon, Bernard Deletré, Jean-Paul Fouchécourt, Noémi Rime










von Westhoff: Sonata for Violin and Continuo No. 3: Imitazione delle campane (Arr. Christian Badzura)

Daniel Hope, Deutsches Kammerorchester Berlin

Vivaldi, Telemann, Couperin, Albinoni and their contemporaries in the starting gate from tomorrow.


----------



## Mandryka

I think Elizabeth Jacquet de la Guerre’s music is really agreeable, I’m thinking really of the solo keyboard sonatas, but also the trio sonatas, I’m not sure I’ve heard more. The two Kuhnau collections are worth dipping into for sure. Willi Appel in his old book on keyboard music says that when Kuhnau’s good he’s very very good and when he’s bad he’s boring as hell (my paraphrase) - I think that’s right. The Muffat concertos, Armonico Tributo, are tremendous, among my favourite baroque concertos.


I’ll be interested to hear any comments on the Westhoff, which I haven’t heard (but I spent some time listening to his solo violin music a few months ago.)


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> ... I'll be interested to hear any comments on the Westhoff, which I haven't heard (but I spent some time listening to his solo violin music a few months ago.)


Strange little piece. Very contemporary-sounding, like Pärt or Glass, but maybe that's just the arrangement I heard.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Strange little piece. Very contemporary-sounding, like Pärt or Glass, but maybe that's just the arrangement I heard.


I think it's really good stuff actually -- Westhoff is probably a fabulous violin composer waiting to be discovered, I was very impressed with Kolja Lessing's collection of suites. When Bach wrote his solo violin music he was contributing to a well established tradition, now almost completely forgotten.


----------



## Luchesi

Johachim Burmeister's Musical Rhetorical Figures - Compendium

Compendium of the musical rhetorical figures and their definitions as presented in three publications of Johachim Burmeister: Hypomnematum musicae poeticae (1599) [link], Musica autoschediastikē (1601) [link], and Musica poetica (1606) [link]. The examples included in this document are original: in the sources the examples are given either in tablature, hence have no text, or only as references, quoted here for the convenience of the readers.






This YT channel is so helpful;

"The aim of Early Music Source is to simplify the access to the vast amount of Early music sources. It contains bibliographical lists in the different fields of early music. Sources which are available online are supplemented by links. The Database search allows a dynamic search according to different categories. Our youtube show discusses interesting subjects related to early music sources."


----------



## Mandryka

I'm enjoying discovering Pachelbel's Musikalische Sterbens-Gedanken. It turns out that no-one's quite sure what it is, but whatever it is, it seems to be a congenial set of choral variations. Agreeable and easy going music of course, it's Pachelbel! Puts a smile on your face, wears out its welcome before its over, hear once, forget.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musicalische_Sterbens-Gedancken


----------



## Chilham

Our first 'Level 1' work of the journey, a work with more than 22 recommendations from the nearly 40 sources I considered, starts us off this week. I guess it'll be of little surprise as we cover composers born 1667-1682, that The Four Seasons tops the list - n00b admission, when I first came to Talk Classical in June 2020, I didn't know that The Four Seasons were only the first four concertos of twelve.

*Level 1*
*Vivaldi, Antonio**: Il Cimento Dell'Armonia e Dell'Inventione esp. Nos. 1-4 Le Quattro Stagioni, No. 5 La Tempesta Di Mare*

My listening this morning:










Vivaldi, Antonio: Il Cimento Dell'Armonia e Dell'Inventione Nos. 1-4 Le Quattro Stagioni

La Serenissima, Adrian Chandler, Peter Whelan










Vivaldi, Antonio: Il Cimento Dell'Armonia e Dell'Inventione No. 5 La Tempesta Di Mare, No. 6-12

Fabio Biondi, Europa Galante


----------



## Mandryka

Try this one


----------



## new but obsessed

Glad I finally have the prompt to listen to the Four Seasons recording* I added to my collection a couple months ago. And timed perfectly, as I was at #6 on Pianozach's list, which is the Summer Concerto. Killed a few birds with one stone! The accompanying sonnets made for a wonderful pairing (thanks Wikipedia!). 

*Apple Music was recommending the Janine Jansen (Decca) recording, which I quite liked. 

I found Summer and Autumn to be the most engaging. Spring my least fave of the four, but only by a small margin. Good stuff all around! 

I also picked up that same Europa Galante** collection for the other 8 concertos. Making my way through it now. I can see that the Four Seasons are really stand outs. But I did still really like the first movement of No. 5 'La tempesta di mare' and found Nos 8 & 9 to be particularly good. With Vivaldi I'm gravitating to the quick loud and dramatic stuff. 

Before this listen, I guess I was only really familiar with the first movement of Spring, which solidified in my mind this stereotype of a quiet, courtly, prim sound. Background music for fancy socials. Glad to be disabused of that notion. Lots of fireworks abound!

** Is it unusual or noteworthy that the compilation orders the concertos not 1-12, but 1-5, 7, 11, 10, 8, 9, 6, 12?


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> ... Apple Music was recommending the Janine Jansen (Decca) recording, which I quite liked...


My wife's favourite too.


----------



## Chilham

What's next Vivaldi?

*Level 1*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Il Cimento Dell'Armonia e Dell'Inventione esp. Nos. 1-4 Le Quattro Stagioni, No. 5 La Tempesta Di Mare

*Level 2*
*Vivaldi, Antonio: Gloria*

*Level 3*
*Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Concerti Grossi "L'estro Armonico" Op. 3 esp. No. 1, No. 11*

My listening this morning:










Vivaldi, Antonio: Gloria

Sir Neville Marriner, Academy of St. Martin in the Fields Chorus, Academy of St. Martin in the Fields, Niels Heilmann, Barbara Hendricks, Jorma Hynninen, Ann Murray & Andy Rigby










Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Concertos Op. 3 "L'Estro Armonico"

Rachel Podger, Brecon Baroque


----------



## pianozach

new but obsessed said:


> Glad I finally have the prompt to listen to the Four Seasons recording* I added to my collection a couple months ago. And timed perfectly, as I was at #6 on Pianozach's list, which is the Summer Concerto. Killed a few birds with one stone! The accompanying sonnets made for a wonderful pairing (thanks Wikipedia!).
> 
> *Apple Music was recommending the Janine Jansen (Decca) recording, which I quite liked.
> 
> I found Summer and Autumn to be the most engaging. Spring my least fave of the four, but only by a small margin. Good stuff all around!
> 
> I also picked up that same Europa Galante** collection for the other 8 concertos. Making my way through it now. I can see that the Four Seasons are really stand outs. But I did still really like the first movement of No. 5 'La tempesta di mare' and found Nos 8 & 9 to be particularly good. With Vivaldi I'm gravitating to the quick loud and dramatic stuff.
> 
> Before this listen, I guess I was only really familiar with the first movement of Spring, which solidified in my mind this stereotype of a quiet, courtly, prim sound. Background music for fancy socials. Glad to be disabused of that notion. Lots of fireworks abound!
> 
> *** Is it unusual or noteworthy that the compilation orders the concertos not 1-12, but 1-5, 7, 11, 10, 8, 9, 6, 12?*


No, not really, although it's nice they kept 1-4 in sequence. They could have done this for a a few different reasons:

1. Sometimes they'll do this so they'll fit better in the time allotted.

2. Sometimes they'll subjectively pair a stronger work with a weaker work. (My 5-CD Beethoven Symphonies Collection has some odd match-ups)

3. Sometimes the compilation might be placed in the order in which they were written.

But who knows? Maybe they went by the RV #s.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Il Cimento Dell'Armonia e Dell'Inventione esp. Nos. 1-4 Le Quattro Stagioni, No. 5 La Tempesta Di Mare

*Level 2*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Gloria

*Level 3*
Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Concerti Grossi "L'estro Armonico" Op. 3 esp. No. 1, No. 11

*Level 4*
*Couperin, François: Pièces de Clavercin esp. Les Baricades Mistérieuses
Couperin, François: Trois Lecons de Tenebres	
Giazotto attrib. Albinoni, Tomaso (Disp.): Adagio in G minor 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Tafelmusik	*

There's over six and a half hours of music in today's listening. I'll be in the office all day so it may work out. We'll see. My first listen to the Trois Leçons de Ténèbres and I very much enjoyed Rousset's Lully a couple of weeks ago so I'm looking forward to that.




























Couperin: Pièces de Clavercin

Angela Hewitt










Couperin: Trois Leçons de Ténèbres

Christophe Rousset: Sandrine Piau, Les Talens Lyriques, Emmanuel Balssa










Telemann: Tafelmusik

Walter van Hauwe, Florilegium

Each of these pieces has a podcast dedicated to it in the BBC Early Music Show series. If you have access to the BBC, you can get a 20-minute introduction to the piece.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> I'll be in the office all day so it may work out.


You listen to music in your office, Mr? _Classical_ music?


----------



## Chilham

hammeredklavier said:


> You listen to music in your office, Mr? _Classical_ music?


I do, and I am.


----------



## pianozach

Chilham said:


> I do, and I am.


I am, and I do. I be, and I do.

I do, and I be.

I do be.

I dooby dooby do.


----------



## Chilham

pianozach said:


> I am, and I do. I be, and I do.
> 
> I do, and I be.
> 
> I do be.
> 
> I dooby dooby do.


............... Wah!


----------



## new but obsessed

I don't have six hours, but I am curious about hearing some Couperin, mostly because I can't get over Ravel's Le tombeau de Couperin, so quite tangential. 

I'm sure I've heard a bunch of Telemann on the radio - the name is so familiar from my local DJs. 

Anyway, if there are any specific things worth listening to, some highlights that you could recommend, that'd be much appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> I don't have six hours, but I am curious about hearing some Couperin, mostly because I can't get over Ravel's Le tombeau de Couperin, so quite tangential.
> 
> I'm sure I've heard a bunch of Telemann on the radio - the name is so familiar from my local DJs.
> 
> Anyway, if there are any specific things worth listening to, some highlights that you could recommend, that'd be much appreciated. Thanks!


Les Baricades Mistérieuses.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Il Cimento Dell'Armonia e Dell'Inventione esp. Nos. 1-4 Le Quattro Stagioni, No. 5 La Tempesta Di Mare

*Level 2*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Gloria

*Level 3*
Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Concerti Grossi "L'estro Armonico" Op. 3 esp. No. 1, No. 11

*Level 4*
Couperin, François: Pièces de Clavercin esp. Les Baricades Mistérieuses
Couperin, François: Trois Lecons de Tenebres	
Albinoni, Tomaso (Disp.): Adagio in G minor	
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Tafelmusik

*Level 5*
*Vivaldi, Antonio: Stabat Mater, RV 621	
Vivaldi, Antonio: Flute Concertos Op. 10 esp. Concerto No. 2 "La Notte", No. 3 "The Goldfinch"
Vivaldi, Antonio: Concerto for 2 Trumpets in C major, RV 537	
Albinoni, Tomaso: Oboe Concertos Op. 9 esp. Concerto No. 2. II. Adagio & Nos. 5, 8 & 11
Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Violin Concertos "La Stravaganza" Op. 4	
Vivaldi, Antonio: Juditha Triumphans	
Vivaldi, Antonio: Nulla In Mundo Pax Sincera	
Marcello, Alessandro: Oboe Concerto in D Minor*

Being a little more selective for my listening today:










Vivaldi: Flute Concertos Op. 10 No. 2 "La Notte", No. 3 "The Goldfinch"

Emmanuel Pahud, Australian Chamber Orchestra, Richard Tognetti










Albinoni: Oboe Concertos Op. 9 Nos. 2 5, 8 & 11

Academy of Ancient Music, Alfredo Bernardini, Andrew Manze, Christopher Hogwood, Frank de Bruine










Marcello: Oboe Concerto in D Minor

Heinz Holliger, I Musici










Vivaldi: Juditha Triumphans

Academia Montis Regalis, Magdalena Kozeva


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Il Cimento Dell'Armonia e Dell'Inventione esp. Nos. 1-4 Le Quattro Stagioni, No. 5 La Tempesta Di Mare

*Level 2*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Gloria

*Level 3*
Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Concerti Grossi "L'estro Armonico" Op. 3 esp. No. 1, No. 11

*Level 4*
Couperin, François: Pièces de Clavercin esp. Les Baricades Mistérieuses
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Tafelmusik	
Couperin, François: Trois Lecons de Tenebres
Vivaldi, Antonio: Flute Concertos Op. 10 esp. Concerto No. 2 "La Notte", No. 3 "The Goldfinch"
Albinoni, Tomaso (Disp.): Adagio in G minor

*Level 5*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Stabat Mater, RV 621	
Albinoni, Tomaso: Oboe Concertos Op. 9 esp. Concerto No. 2. II. Adagio & Nos. 5, 8 & 11
Vivaldi, Antonio: Concerto for 2 Trumpets in C major, RV 537	
Marcello, Alessandro: Oboe Concerto in D Minor
Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Violin Concertos "La Stravaganza" Op. 4	
*Couperin, François: Concerts Royaux*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Juditha Triumphans	
Vivaldi, Antonio: Nulla In Mundo Pax Sincera	
*Albinoni, Tomaso: Concertos a Cinque Op. 7 esp. Concerto Nos. 3, 6, 9 & 12
Couperin, François: L'Apotheose de Lulli	
Vivaldi, Antonio: L'Olimpiade
Vivaldi, Antonio: Trio Sonata in C*

*Level 6*
*Vivaldi, Antonio: Lute Concerto RV 93	
Vivaldi, Antonio: Nisi Dominus	
Couperin, François: Les Nations	
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Six Orchestral Suites TWV 50 & 55 esp. TWV 55 Hamburger Ebb' und Fluth
Lotti, Antonio: Crucifixus a 8	
Couperin, François: L'Apotheose de Corelli	
Rebel, Jean-Féry: Les Élémens	
Vivaldi, Antonio: Violin Concerto in E "L'Amoroso" RV 271	
Vivaldi, Antonio: Dixit Dominus	
Vivaldi, Antonio: Cello Sonatas RV 39-47
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Viola Concerto in G Major TWV 51*

My listening today:










Couperin: L'Apotheose de Lulli, L'Apotheose de Corelli

Christophe Rousset, Les Talons Lyrique










Rebel: Les Élémens

Telemann: Hamburger Ebb' und Fluth

Jordi Savall, Le Concert des Nations










Couperin: Les Nations

Christophe Rousset, Les Talons Lyrique










Albinoni: Concertos a Cinque Op. 7 Nos. 3, 6, 9 & 12

Simon Standage, Anthony Robson, Collegium Musicum 90










Couperin: Concerts Royaux

Christophe Rousset, Les Talons Lyrique


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> *Level 1*
> 
> Vivaldi, Antonio: Flute Concertos Op. 10 esp. Concerto No. 2 "La Notte", No. 3 "The Goldfinch"


Good performance of La Notte here


----------



## Chilham

Eyes down, look in. More from Vivaldi, Couperin, Telemann and their contemporaries.

*Level 1*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Il Cimento Dell'Armonia e Dell'Inventione esp. Nos. 1-4 Le Quattro Stagioni, No. 5 La Tempesta Di Mare

*Level 2*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Gloria

*Level 3*
Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Concerti Grossi "L'estro Armonico" Op. 3 esp. No. 1, No. 11

*Level 4*
Couperin, François: Pièces de Clavercin esp. Les Baricades Mistérieuses
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Tafelmusik	
Couperin, François: Trois Lecons de Tenebres
Vivaldi, Antonio: Flute Concertos Op. 10 esp. Concerto No. 2 "La Notte", No. 3 "The Goldfinch"
Albinoni, Tomaso (Disp.): Adagio in G minor

*Level 5*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Stabat Mater, RV 621	
Albinoni, Tomaso: Oboe Concertos Op. 9 esp. Concerto No. 2. II. Adagio & Nos. 5, 8 & 11
Vivaldi, Antonio: Concerto for 2 Trumpets in C major, RV 537	
Marcello, Alessandro: Oboe Concerto in D Minor
Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Violin Concertos "La Stravaganza" Op. 4	
Couperin, François: Concerts Royaux
Vivaldi, Antonio: Juditha Triumphans	
Vivaldi, Antonio: Nulla In Mundo Pax Sincera	
Albinoni, Tomaso: Concertos a Cinque Op. 7 esp. Concerto Nos. 3, 6, 9 & 12
Couperin, François: L'Apotheose de Lulli	
Vivaldi, Antonio: L'Olimpiade
Vivaldi, Antonio: Trio Sonata in C

*Level 6*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Lute Concerto RV 93	
Vivaldi, Antonio: Nisi Dominus	
Couperin, François: Les Nations	
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Six Orchestral Suites TWV 50 & 55 esp. TWV 55 Hamburger Ebb' und Fluth
Lotti, Antonio: Crucifixus a 8	
Couperin, François: L'Apotheose de Corelli	
Rebel, Jean-Féry: Les Élémens	
Vivaldi, Antonio: Violin Concerto in E "L'Amoroso" RV 271	
Vivaldi, Antonio: Dixit Dominus	
Vivaldi, Antonio: Cello Sonatas RV 39-47
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Viola Concerto in G Major TWV 51
*Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Violin Concerto Op. 9 "La Cetra"
Zelenka, Jan Dismas: Miserere in C Minor Psalm 50, ZWV. 57
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Trumpet Concerto in D Major
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Esseercizii Musici
Couperin, François: L'Arte de Toucher
Couperin, François: Les Goûts-Réúnis
Vivaldi, Antonio: Sonata for Two Violins RV 60
Vivaldi, Antonio: Concerto for 2 Cellos RV 531
Vivaldi, Antonio: Concerto for 2 Violins, Strings and Continuo RV 516
Zelenka, Jan Dismas: Sonata No. 5 in F Major
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Burlesque de Quixotte
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Nouveax Quatuors en Six Suites TWV 43
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Der Tag des Gerichts (Oratorio)
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Don Quichotte (Opera)
Clarke, Jeremiah: Trumpet Voluntary
Vivaldi, Antonio: Mandolin Concerto RV 425
Mouret, Jean-Joseph: Suites de Symphonies
Caldara, Antonio: Cantate da Camera
Vivaldi, Antonio et al: Andromeda liberata, Serenata Veneziana, RV Anh. 117
Telemann, Georg Philipp: 12 Fantasias for Solo Violin
Lotti, Antonio: Giove in Argo
Lotti, Antonio: Teofane
Lotti, Antonio: Missa Sapientiae
Lotti, Antonio: Requiem
Lotti, Antonio: Missa del Sesto Tuono
Lotti, Antonio: Madrigals
Couperin, François: La Superbe, ou La Forqueray
Couperin, François: Pièces de Violes
Couperin, François: La Sultane
Caldara, Antonio: 12 Suonate a 3
Caldara, Antonio: La Passione di Gesú Cristo
Caldara, Antonio: Suonate da Camera*

My listening today:










Vivaldi et al: Andromeda liberata "Serenata Veneziana"

Andrea Marcon, Venice Baroque Orchestra, Simone Kermes, Max Emanuel Cencic, Katerina Beranova, Anna Bonitatibus, Mark Tucker, La Stagione Armonica










Zelenka: Miserere in C Minor

Il Fondamento, Paul Dombrecht, Il Fondamento Choir










Telemann, Georg Philipp: Trumpet Concerto in D Major

Alison Balsom, Balsom Ensemble










Vivaldi Stabat Mater

Andreas Scholl, Chiara Banchini, Ensemble 415










Vivaldi: Trio Sonata in C

Avi Avital, Mahan Esfahani, Ophira Zakai, Patrick Sepec

Vivaldi: Mandolin Concerto RV. 425

Avi Avital Venice Baroque Orchestra


----------



## Chilham

Finishing off this weeks recommended works. This final part of the list has not been 'curated' so may contain errors. Let us know if there are any hidden gems here.

*Level 1*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Il Cimento Dell'Armonia e Dell'Inventione esp. Nos. 1-4 Le Quattro Stagioni, No. 5 La Tempesta Di Mare

*Level 2*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Gloria

*Level 3*
Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Concerti Grossi "L'estro Armonico" Op. 3 esp. No. 1, No. 11

*Level 4*
Couperin, François: Pièces de Clavercin esp. Les Baricades Mistérieuses
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Tafelmusik 
Couperin, François: Trois Lecons de Tenebres
Vivaldi, Antonio: Flute Concertos Op. 10 esp. Concerto No. 2 "La Notte", No. 3 "The Goldfinch"
Albinoni, Tomaso (Disp.): Adagio in G minor

*Level 5*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Stabat Mater, RV 621 
Albinoni, Tomaso: Oboe Concertos Op. 9 esp. Concerto No. 2. II. Adagio & Nos. 5, 8 & 11
Vivaldi, Antonio: Concerto for 2 Trumpets in C major, RV 537 
Marcello, Alessandro: Oboe Concerto in D Minor
Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Violin Concertos "La Stravaganza" Op. 4 
Couperin, François: Concerts Royaux
Vivaldi, Antonio: Juditha Triumphans 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Nulla In Mundo Pax Sincera 
Albinoni, Tomaso: Concertos a Cinque Op. 7 esp. Concerto Nos. 3, 6, 9 & 12
Couperin, François: L'Apotheose de Lulli 
Vivaldi, Antonio: L'Olimpiade
Vivaldi, Antonio: Trio Sonata in C

*Level 6*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Lute Concerto RV 93 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Nisi Dominus 
Couperin, François: Les Nations 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Six Orchestral Suites TWV 50 & 55 esp. TWV 55 Hamburger Ebb' und Fluth
Lotti, Antonio: Crucifixus a 8 
Couperin, François: L'Apotheose de Corelli 
Rebel, Jean-Féry: Les Élémens 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Violin Concerto in E "L'Amoroso" RV 271 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Dixit Dominus 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Cello Sonatas RV 39-47
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Viola Concerto in G Major TWV 51
Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Violin Concerto Op. 9 "La Cetra"
Zelenka, Jan Dismas: Miserere in C Minor Psalm 50, ZWV. 57
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Trumpet Concerto in D Major
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Esseercizii Musici
Couperin, François: L'Arte de Toucher
Couperin, François: Les Goûts-Réúnis
Vivaldi, Antonio: Sonata for Two Violins RV 60
Vivaldi, Antonio: Concerto for 2 Cellos RV 531
Vivaldi, Antonio: Concerto for 2 Violins, Strings and Continuo RV 516
Zelenka, Jan Dismas: Sonata No. 5 in F Major
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Burlesque de Quixotte
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Nouveax Quatuors en Six Suites TWV 43
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Der Tag des Gerichts
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Don Quichotte

*Level 7*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Mandolin Concerto RV 425
Mouret, Jean-Joseph: Suites de Symphonies
Caldara, Antonio: Cantate da Camera
Vivaldi, Antonio et al: Andromeda liberata, Serenata Veneziana, RV Anh. 117
Telemann, Georg Philipp: 12 Fantasias for Solo Violin
Lotti, Antonio: Giove in Argo
Lotti, Antonio: Teofane
Lotti, Antonio: Missa Sapientiae
Lotti, Antonio: Requiem
Lotti, Antonio: Missa del Sesto Tuono
Lotti, Antonio: Madrigals
Couperin, François: La Superbe, ou La Forqueray
Couperin, François: Pièces de Violes
Couperin, François: La Sultane
Caldara, Antonio: 12 Suonate a 3
Caldara, Antonio: La Passione di Gesú Cristo
Caldara, Antonio: Suonate da Camera
Caldara, Antonio: Vaticini di Pace 
Matteis, Nicola: Ground After the Scotch Humour 
Albinoni, Tomaso: Artamene 
Albinoni, Tomaso: Il Nascimento de l'Aurora (Opera) 
Albinoni, Tomaso: Laodice 
Albinoni, Tomaso: Sinfonie e Concerti a Cinque Op. 2 
Albinoni, Tomaso: 12 Concerti Op. 5 
Clayton, Thomas: Arsinoe, Queen of Cyprus 
Murcia, Santiago de: Fandango 
Clarke, Jeremiah: The Prince of Denmark's March 
Clarke, Jeremiah: Trumpet Voluntary 
Keiser, Reinhard: Octavia (Opera) 
Keiser, Reinhard: Circe 
Keiser, Reinhard: Der Hochmütige, Gestürzte und Wieder Erhabene Croesus 
Dall'Abaco, Evaristo: Concerto piu istrumenti Op. 6 
Clérambault, Louis-Nicolas: Cantatas Françoises esp. Cantata Book I No. 3: Orphée
Orlandini, Giuseppe Maria: Bacocco e Serpilla 
Morin, Jean-Baptiste: Cantatas Françoises 
Porta, Giovanni: Numitore 
Croft, William: Burial Service 
Croft, William: Musica Sacra 
Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Concertos Op. 7 esp. No. 11 Concerti a 5 Stromenti
Vivaldi, Antonio: Atendaide inc. Cor moi che prigione sei
Vivaldi, Antonio: Concerto alla Rustica RV 151 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Concerto for 2 Mandolins RV 532 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Double Orchestra Concerto RV 585 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Farnace 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Lauda Jerusalem 
Vivaldi, Antonio: In furore iustissimae irae RV 626 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Magnificat in G Minor 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Orlando Furioso inc. Alma oppressa da sorte crudele
Vivaldi, Antonio: Ottone in Villa 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Six Violin Concertos Op. 12 esp. No. 1 in G Minor
Vivaldi, Antonio: Scanderbeg 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Sinfonia in G Minor 
Vivaldi, Antonio: Siroe, Re di Persia 
Vivaldi, Antonio: 5 Oboe Concertos 
Vivaldi, Antonio: 6 Oboe Sonatas "Il Pastor Fido" Op. 13 
Vivaldi, Antonio: 6 Violin Concertos Op. 11 
Vivaldi, Antonio: 6 Violin Concertos Op. 6 
Vivaldi, Antonio: 7 Cello Concertos 
Zumaya, Manuel de: La Partenope 
Hoffman, Melchior Disp.: Cantata BWV 53 
Sarro, Domenico: Achille in Sciro 
Sarro, Domenico: Didone Abbandonata 
Zelenka, Jan Dismas: Concerto à 8 for Orchestra 
Zelenka, Jan Dismas: Missa Sanctissimae Trinitalis 
Mattheson, Johann: Critica Musica 
Mattheson, Johann: Der Volkommene Capellmeister 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Auf Zion! 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Concerto for Violin Concertata, Strings and Basso Continuo esp. i. Allegro
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Der Harmonische Gottesdienst 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Emma und Eginhard
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Pimpinone 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Six Concerts TWV 42 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: St Luke's Passion 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: St Matthew Passion 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Fantasias for Harpsichord 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: 4 Horn Concertos 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: 5 Concertos for Flutes, Bassoons & Lute 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: 5 Oboe Concertos 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Quartets "Paris" Book 1 & 2 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: 6 Quartets (Sonatas) Book IV 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: 6 Sonatas "Canonic" Op. 5 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Suite in A minor, and Sinfonia & 2 Concertos 
Telemann, Georg Philipp: Fantasias for Flute i. Fantasia in A Major

After Dall'Abaco, I'm heading back up the list for my listening today:










Dall'Abaco: Voncerti a Più Instrumenti Op. 6 Nos. 5 & 11

Concerto Köln










Vivaldi: 12 Violin Concertos "La Stravaganza" Op. 4

Rachel Podger, Arte dei Suonatori










Vivaldi: Concerto for 2 Trumpets in C major, RV 537

Christopher Hogwood, Michael Laird, Ian Wilson, Academy of Ancient Music

A week of Handel and Rameau awaits us from tomorrow.


----------



## Chilham

A new week and time for Handel and Rameau to step up and reveal their best works.

*Level 1*
*Handel, Georg Frederic: Messiah*

I've come to love a lot of Handel's work but the top recommendation has not yet sat completely flush with me. We'll see how de go today:










Handel: Messiah

Trevor Pinnock, The English Consort

More listening options here.


----------



## Chilham

I still don't enjoy Handel's Messiah. Considering how much I enjoy some of his music to come later in the week, it's odd. Oh well.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Messiah

*Level 2*
*Handel, Georg Frederic: Water Music*

*Level 3*
*Handel, Georg Frederic: Music for the Royal Fireworks*

My listening today:










Handel: Water Music

Trevor Pinnock, The English Consort










Handel: Music for the Royal Fireworks

Alfredo Bernardini, Zefiro


----------



## new but obsessed

I believe I caught quite a bit of a radio broadcast of the Messiah over the recent holidays. indeed, much of it I found quite odd. But I'll give these top three recs a listen this week. Still very curious to dive into Handel's music.


----------



## Chilham

Delving a little deeper into Handel today if you have the time, and introducing Rameau.

*Level 1*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Messiah

*Level 2*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Water Music

*Level 3*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Music for the Royal Fireworks
*Handel, Georg Frederic: Giulio Cesare HWV 17 esp. Act 1: "Va tacito e nascosto"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Concerti Grossi Op. 6, HWV 319-330 esp. Concerto HWV 325
Handel, Georg Frederic: Solomon esp. Arrival Of The Queen Of Sheba*

*Level 4*
*Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Pieces de Clavercin*

My listening today:










Handel: Concerti Grossi Op. 6 HWV 325

Martin Gester, Arte dei Suonatori










Handel: Solomon Overture and Arrival of the Queen of Sheba

Daniel Reuss, Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin










Rameau: Pieces de Clavercin

Víkingur Ólafsson










Handel: Giulio Cesare

René Jacobs, Concerto Köln


----------



## marlow




----------



## Chilham

I thoroughly enjoyed listening yesterday, the Ólafsson recording being a delight.

*Level 1*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Messiah

*Level 2*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Water Music

*Level 3*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Music for the Royal Fireworks
Handel, Georg Frederic: Giulio Cesare HWV 17 esp. Act 1: "Va tacito e nascosto"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Concerti Grossi Op. 6, HWV 319-330 esp. Concerto HWV 325
Handel, Georg Frederic: Solomon esp. Arrival Of The Queen Of Sheba

*Level 4*
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Pieces de Clavercin
*Handel, Georg Frederic: Four Coronation Anthems esp. Zadok the Priest
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Pieces de Clavercin en Concert	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Israel in Egypt	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Xerxes esp. Ombra Mal Fu
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Hippolyte et Aricie	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Acis and Gatatea
Handel, Georg Frederic: Rinaldo esp. Mlascia Ch'io Pianga
Handel, Georg Frederic: Organ Concertos Op. 4 esp. No. 4 & No. 6 B-flat Concerto*

I've been looking forward to reacquainting myself with Israel in Egypt, but before I do:










Handel: Four Coronation Anthems No. 1 Zadok the Priest

Trevor Pinnock, The English Concert, Simon Preston, The Choir Of Westminster Abbey










Handel: Organ Concertos Op. 4 No. 4 & No. 6 B-flat Concerto

Richard Egarr, Academy of Ancient Music










Handel: Israel in Egypt

Andrew Parrott, Taverner Choir & Players, Emma Kirkby, Emily Van Evera, Timothy Wilson, David Thomas, Jeremy White, Nancy Argenta, Anthony Rolfe Johnson


----------



## Mandryka

I vaguely remember Acis and Galatea is quite good fun. It's got a good monster in it.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> I vaguely remember Acis and Galatea is quite good fun. It's got a good monster in it.


Thanks for the tip!

I only have the Act I Sinfonia and "O ruddier than the cherry" from this:










Handel: Acis and Galatea

William Christie, Les Arts Florissants

I also have a couple of BBC Early Music Show podcasts on the piece so will give all of those a listen this evening and perhaps download the rest and come back to it later in the week.


----------



## Kreisler jr

I don't think Handel is served well by some of the "hits" like Arrival of the Queen etc. I also personally don't care for that harp concerto (or the organ version) although admittedly the sound with muted strings and recorders is somewhat special. I think it's better to listen to e.g. the first 4 concerti of op.6 or a few organ concerti to get more variety (similar with the keyboard suites) 
A bunch of rather underrated pieces that deserved to be as well known as the water music are the 3 concerti a due cori.

Israel in Egypt is an uneven piece but has some really great choruses.

Acis and Galatea was one of Handel's greatest hit until far into the 19th century as both Mozart and Mendelssohn made arrangements of it for performances. It's a very nice piece, very pastoral, almost pre-Mozartian rococo, without lengths but rather modest in almost any scope (length, drama, emotion) compared to the more "serious" operas or oratorios. My favorite part is the choir "Wretched lovers... behold the monster Polypheme" with it's "break" from the lament to the more dramatic warning.


----------



## Mandryka

It's years and years since I listened to Handel seriously, but I remember at one point being completely addicted to the German Arias.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Messiah

*Level 2*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Water Music

*Level 3*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Music for the Royal Fireworks
Handel, Georg Frederic: Giulio Cesare HWV 17 esp. Act 1: "Va tacito e nascosto"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Concerti Grossi Op. 6, HWV 319-330 esp. Concerto HWV 325
Handel, Georg Frederic: Solomon esp. Arrival Of The Queen Of Sheba

*Level 4*
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Pieces de Clavercin
Handel, Georg Frederic: Four Coronation Anthems esp. Zadok the Priest
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Pieces de Clavercin en Concert	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Israel in Egypt	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Xerxes esp. Ombra Mal Fu
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Hippolyte et Aricie	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Acis and Gatatea
Handel, Georg Frederic: Rinaldo esp. Mlascia Ch'io Pianga
*Handel, Georg Frederic: Great Keyboard Suites HWV 426-433 esp. Suite HWV 427, HWV 430 "The Harmonious Blacksmith"*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Organ Concertos Op. 4 esp. No. 4 & No. 6 B-flat Concerto

*Level 5*
*Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Castor et Pollux
Handel, Georg Frederic: Alcina (Opera) esp. Act 1 "Tornami a vagheggiar"
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Les Indes Galantes	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Dixit Dominus	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Ariodante	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Judas Maccbaeus	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Ode for St. Cecilia's Day	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Saul 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Jephtha	
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Platée Suite
Handel, Georg Frederic: Orlando*

*Level 6*
*Handel, Georg Frederic: Concerti Grossi Op. 3	
Handel, Georg Frederic: L'allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato, Part III "As Steals the Morn"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Tamerlano	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Organ Concertos Op. 7 esp. No. 10, No. 13 "The Cuckoo and the Nightingale"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Rodelinda	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Susanna*

I've downloaded all of Acis and Galatea but am going to save that for Friday, will focus on Rameau tomorrow, so my listening today:










Handel: Alcina

William Christie, Les Arts Florissants, Natalie Dessay, Renée Fleming, Susan Graham










Handel: Great Keyboard Suites HWV 427 & HWV 430

Lisa Smirnova










Handel: Saul (Highlights)

Harry Christophers, The Sixteen, Christopher Purves, Sarah Connolly, Robert Murray, Elizabeth Atherton, Joélle Harvey, Mark Dobell, Jeremy Budd & Stuart Young










Handel: L'allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato, Part III "As Steals the Morn"

Andrew Manze, Mark Padmore, The English Concert


----------



## marlow

Anyone who can write this belongs to the greats


----------



## pianozach

marlow said:


> Anyone who can write this belongs to the greats


Well, yeah. *Handel* was no amateur hack.


----------



## Chilham

Down, down, deeper and down.

*Level 1*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Messiah

*Level 2*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Water Music

*Level 3*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Music for the Royal Fireworks
Handel, Georg Frederic: Giulio Cesare HWV 17 esp. Act 1: "Va tacito e nascosto"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Concerti Grossi Op. 6, HWV 319-330 esp. Concerto HWV 325
Handel, Georg Frederic: Solomon esp. Arrival Of The Queen Of Sheba

*Level 4*
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Pieces de Clavercin
Handel, Georg Frederic: Four Coronation Anthems esp. Zadok the Priest
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Pieces de Clavercin en Concert	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Israel in Egypt	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Xerxes esp. Ombra Mal Fu
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Hippolyte et Aricie	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Acis and Gatatea
Handel, Georg Frederic: Rinaldo esp. Mlascia Ch'io Pianga
Handel, Georg Frederic: Great Keyboard Suites HWV 426-433 esp. Suite HWV 427, HWV 430 "The Harmonious Blacksmith"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Organ Concertos Op. 4 esp. No. 4 & No. 6 B-flat Concerto

*Level 5*
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Castor et Pollux
Handel, Georg Frederic: Alcina (Opera) esp. Act 1 "Tornami a vagheggiar"
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Les Indes Galantes	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Dixit Dominus	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Ariodante	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Judas Maccbaeus	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Ode for St. Cecilia's Day	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Saul 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Jephtha	
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Platée Suite
Handel, Georg Frederic: Orlando

*Level 6*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Concerti Grossi Op. 3	
Handel, Georg Frederic: L'allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato, Part III "As Steals the Morn"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Tamerlano	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Organ Concertos Op. 7 esp. No. 10, No. 13 "The Cuckoo and the Nightingale"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Rodelinda	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Susanna
*Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Les Boréades, RCT 31 esp. Acte IV, Scène IV
Handel, Georg Frederic: Samson	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Agrippina	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Theodora	
Handel, Georg Frederic: La Resurrezione	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Semele	
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Zoroastre	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Te Deum	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Ode for the Birthday of Queen Anne, HWV 74 inc. Eternal Source of Light Divine
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Le Princesse de Navarre 
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Pygmalion 
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Traité de l'Harmonie	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Dettingen' Te Deum	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Admeto	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Esther	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Oboe Sonata in C Minor Op. 1 esp. Sonata No. 8*

*Level 7* 
*Handel, Georg Frederic: Athaila	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Funeral Anthem for Queen Caroline "The Ways of Zion do Mourn"	
Manfredini, Francesco: Concerti Grossi	
Handel, Georg Frederic: Belshazzar*

Getting to know Rameau a little better for my listening today:










Rameau: Platée Suite

Elizabeth Wallfisch, The Raglan Baroque Players, Nicholas Kraemer










Rameau: Zoroaster, Le Boréades, Les Indes Galantes, Caster et Pollux (fragments)

Teodor Currentzis, MusicAeterna










Rameau: Hippolyte et Aricie

William Christie, Les Arts Florissants, Mark Padmore, Anna Maria Panzarella, Lorraine Hunt Lieberson, Laurent Naouri, Eirian James, Patricia Petibon, Gaëlle Méchaly, Yann Beuron, Nathan Berg


----------



## Mandryka

Jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj


----------



## Chilham

Finishing off a week of Handel and Rameau with the rest of the works that received just one recommendation.

*Level 1*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Messiah

*Level 2*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Water Music

*Level 3*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Music for the Royal Fireworks
Handel, Georg Frederic: Giulio Cesare HWV 17 esp. Act 1: "Va tacito e nascosto"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Concerti Grossi Op. 6, HWV 319-330 esp. Concerto HWV 325
Handel, Georg Frederic: Solomon esp. Arrival Of The Queen Of Sheba

*Level 4*
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Pieces de Clavercin
Handel, Georg Frederic: Four Coronation Anthems esp. Zadok the Priest
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Pieces de Clavercin en Concert 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Israel in Egypt 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Xerxes esp. Ombra Mal Fu
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Hippolyte et Aricie 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Acis and Gatatea
Handel, Georg Frederic: Rinaldo esp. Mlascia Ch'io Pianga
Handel, Georg Frederic: Great Keyboard Suites HWV 426-433 esp. Suite HWV 427, HWV 430 "The Harmonious Blacksmith"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Organ Concertos Op. 4 esp. No. 4 & No. 6 B-flat Concerto

*Level 5*
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Castor et Pollux
Handel, Georg Frederic: Alcina (Opera) esp. Act 1 "Tornami a vagheggiar"
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Les Indes Galantes 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Dixit Dominus 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Ariodante 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Judas Maccbaeus 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Ode for St. Cecilia's Day 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Saul 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Jephtha 
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Platée Suite
Handel, Georg Frederic: Orlando

*Level 6*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Concerti Grossi Op. 3 
Handel, Georg Frederic: L'allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato, Part III "As Steals the Morn"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Tamerlano 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Organ Concertos Op. 7 esp. No. 10, No. 13 "The Cuckoo and the Nightingale"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Rodelinda 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Susanna
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Les Boréades, RCT 31 esp. Acte IV, Scène IV
Handel, Georg Frederic: Samson 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Agrippina 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Theodora 
Handel, Georg Frederic: La Resurrezione 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Semele 
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Zoroastre 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Te Deum 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Ode for the Birthday of Queen Anne, HWV 74 inc. Eternal Source of Light Divine
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Le Princesse de Navarre 
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Pygmalion
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Traité de l'Harmonie 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Dettingen' Te Deum 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Admeto 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Esther 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Oboe Sonata in C Minor Op. 1 esp. Sonata No. 8

*Level 7* 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Athaila 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Funeral Anthem for Queen Caroline "The Ways of Zion do Mourn" 
Manfredini, Francesco: Concerti Grossi 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Belshazzar
Handel, Georg Frederic: Teseo 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Chandos Anthems 
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: La Dauphine 
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Nouvelles Suites 
Rameau, Jean-Philippe: Zaīs 
Walther, Johann Gottfried: Christ Lag in Todesbanden 
Walther, Johann Gottfried: Geystliches Gesangk Buchelyn 
Walther, Johann Gottfried: Musicalisches Lexicon 
Walther, Johann Jakob: Hortuulus Chelicus 
Walther, Johann Jakob: Scherzi 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Alessandro 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Alexander Balus 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Alexander's Feast 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Almira 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Alpestre Monte HWV 81 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Amadigi di Gaula 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Aminio 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Arianna 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Armida 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Chaconne with 62 Variations HWV 442 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Concerti a Due Cori 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Deborah 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Deidamia 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Ezio (Aetius) 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Il Pastor Fido 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Il Trionfo del Tempo e del Disinganno 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Joshua 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Nò, di voi non vo' fidarmi 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Ottone 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Quel fior che all'alba ride 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Radamisto 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Rodrigo 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Sosarme, re di Media 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Suite in D Minor HWV 437 esp. Sarabande
Handel, Georg Frederic: Suites des Pièces pour le Clavercin Premier Volume 
Handel, Georg Frederic: The Occasional Oratorio 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Triumph of Time 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Flavia
Handel, Georg Frederic: Trio Sonatas Op. 2 & 5 
Handel, Georg Frederic: Vncer se Stesso è Il Maggior Vittoria

Lined-up for me today, thanks to earlier recommendations:










Handel: Concerti a Due Cori

Alfredo Bernardini, Zefiro










Acis and Galatea

William Christie, Les Arts Florissants

JS Bach up next.


----------



## pianozach

Chilham said:


> JS Bach up next.


I like Bach. He's one of my favorite composers.

And Vivaldi. Did I miss the Vivaldi posts?


----------



## Chilham

pianozach said:


> I like Bach. He's one of my favorite composers.
> 
> And Vivaldi. Did I miss the Vivaldi posts?


I don't think you missed them all. Vivaldi was with us a couple of weeks ago starting from post #331 and post #348 has the full listing.

A slightly contrived grouping this week for reasons that will become clear later. We're going to look at JS Bach "pre-Liepzig" works, together with other composers born 1685-1695 who aren't specifically identified as being part of the Galant or Empfindsamkeit styles. We'll spend some time with those composers in a couple of weeks.

First up, the "Must-listen" piece for this week:

*Level 1*
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Brandenburg Concertos*

My listening today:










Bach: Brandenburg Concertos

Trevor Pinnock, European Brandenburg Ensemble

The listing in pianozach's Beginner's Guide to Classical Music is linked above and here, other listening options are listed here, and there's an ongoing discussion on the work and the various recordings here.

Enjoy!


----------



## new but obsessed

Fantastic stuff. Great recording. I've always liked the excerpts of this and other Bach that I'd heard. This was the first time I've listened to the concertos straight through. I particularly liked Concerto 5. 

And, as luck would have it, I'm yet again at the same point on this thread's "journey" and on pianozach's list. Two birds!


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> Fantastic stuff. Great recording. I've always liked the excerpts of this and other Bach that I'd heard. This was the first time I've listened to the concertos straight through. I particularly liked Concerto 5.
> 
> And, as luck would have it, I'm yet again at the same point on this thread's "journey" and on pianozach's list. Two birds!


Excellent! I also have the Savall/Concert des Nations recording but prefer Pinnock.

Next up:

*Level 1*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Brandenburg Concertos

*Level 2*
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 1 esp. Prelude and Fugue No. 1 in C Major BWV 846 & Prelude and Fugue in E minor BWV 855
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cello Suites BWV 1007-12*

I know that some of my listening today divides opinion but after a good deal of listening, it's what I currently prefer. I don't provide it to suggest it's the best. I was asked to share my suggestion so I do. There was a recent poll on WTC recordings. My preference wasn't even recommended for the poll. As for Yo-Yo Ma, I just got hooked on his recording. Other options listed here. Listen for yourself and decide what you prefer.:










Bach: The Well-Tempered Clavier Book I

Angela Hewitt










Bach: Cello Suites

Yo-Yo Ma


----------



## new but obsessed

I couldn't find the Angela Hewitt recording on Apple Music. But I did previously add one by Keith Jarrett that the service recommended on their Bach page. Did the trick.

Then I looked up some of the recordings from that poll, and found the 1963 Gould and something from some year or other listed under Sviatoslav Richter's name (I'm assuming that's the top-voted 1970 Richter). Unfortunately the Gould ones sound like they were recorded in a jazz club (I could hear someone talking in the first track!). But the Richter version of BWV 846, though there's some old-timey hiss on the recording, is played at a slower pace and has such a pillowy, dreamy piano sound. A lot less jumpy and sharp than the others I've found. I don't know what's "accurate", but it's certainly a very pleasing rendition. 

I'd love to find something played on a non-piano: a clavichord or harpsichord. 

Also, odd tidbit, when searching through my iTunes for "Well Tempered Clavier", among the results was a track from a 2005 M. Ward (indie singer songwriter) album, Transistor Radio. On the track listing, the final track was credited to JS Bach, it's some sort of acoustic folk guitar version. Based on my ancient star rating of it, seems I did like it back in those days, and it's still quite pleasant a listen. Unfortunately, I'm not sure which section of WTC it is from.


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> I couldn't find the Angela Hewitt recording on Apple Music. But I did previously add one by Keith Jarrett that the service recommended on their Bach page. Did the trick.
> 
> Then I looked up some of the recordings from that poll, and found the 1963 Gould and something from some year or other listed under Sviatoslav Richter's name (I'm assuming that's the top-voted 1970 Richter). Unfortunately the Gould ones sound like they were recorded in a jazz club (I could hear someone talking in the first track!). But the Richter version of BWV 846, though there's some old-timey hiss on the recording, is played at a slower pace and has such a pillowy, dreamy piano sound. A lot less jumpy and sharp than the others I've found. I don't know what's "accurate", but it's certainly a very pleasing rendition.
> 
> I'd love to find something played on a non-piano: a clavichord or harpsichord.
> 
> Also, odd tidbit, when searching through my iTunes for "Well Tempered Clavier", among the results was a track from a 2005 M. Ward (indie singer songwriter) album, Transistor Radio. On the track listing, the final track was credited to JS Bach, it's some sort of acoustic folk guitar version. Based on my ancient star rating of it, seems I did like it back in those days, and it's still quite pleasant a listen. Unfortunately, I'm not sure which section of WTC it is from.


Pretty sure it's Book 1, Prelude No. 1, the very first piece from the WCT.

Next up:

*Level 1*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Brandenburg Concertos

*Level 2*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 1 esp. Prelude and Fugue No. 1 in C Major BWV 846 & Prelude and Fugue in E minor BWV 855
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cello Suites BWV 1007-12
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin BWV 1001-1006 esp. Partita No. 2 v. Chaconne*

*Level 3*
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccata and Fugue in D minor BWV 565*

*Level 4*
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor BWV 582
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 147 "Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben"*

My listening today:










Bach: Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin

Christian Tetzlaff










Bach: Toccata and Fugue in D minor, Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor

Olivier Latry










Bach: Cantata 147

John Eliot Gardiner, English Baroque Soloists, Monteverdi Choir


----------



## new but obsessed

Something that surprised me, personally, was that of all the Level 2-4 stuff listed here that I've listened to so far, the first movement coro of the "Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben" cantata was the standout highlight. I usually prefer the orchestral stuff, but that piece was just special.


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> Something that surprised me, personally, was that of all the Level 2-4 stuff listed here that I've listened to so far, the first movement coro of the "Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben" cantata was the standout highlight. I usually prefer the orchestral stuff, but that piece was just special.


When I first delved deeper into Bach's music a year ago, the cantatas and flute sonatas where the big surprise for me. Thoroughly enjoyed them.

*Level 1*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Brandenburg Concertos

*Level 2*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 1 esp. Prelude and Fugue No. 1 in C Major BWV 846 & Prelude and Fugue in E minor BWV 855
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cello Suites BWV 1007-12
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin BWV 1001-1006 esp. Partita No. 2 v. Chaconne

*Level 3*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccata and Fugue in D minor BWV 565

*Level 4*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor BWV 582
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 147 "Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben"
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Great Fantasia and Fugue in G minor BWV 542 "The Great"*

*Level 5* 
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 208 Was Mir Behagt inc. Sheep May Safely Graze
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Inventions and Sinfonias (Two & Three Part Interventions)	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Orgelbüchlein BWV 599-644 esp. BWV 618 "O Lamm Gottes"
Bach, Johann Sebastian: French Suites BWV 812-817 esp. Suite No. 5 VII. Gigue
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 4 "Christ lag in Todes Banden"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Flute Sonatas, BWV 1030-1035	
Geminiani, Francesco: 6 Concerto Grossi, Op. 2*

Revisiting some favourites today:










Bach: Great Fantasia and Fugue in G minor BWV 542 "The Great"

Olivier Latry










Bach: Cantata BWV 208

Sibylla Rubens, Matthias Goerne, Eva Kirchner, Stuttgart Gachinger Kantorei, Helmuth Rilling, Stuttgart Bach Collegium, James Taylor










Bach: Flute Sonatas

Trevor Pinnock, Emmanuel Pahud

And then a couple that are new to me:










Bach: Cantata BWV 4

Lionel Meunier, Vox Luminis










Bach: Inventions and Sinfonias

Angela Hewitt


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Brandenburg Concertos

*Level 2*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 1 esp. Prelude and Fugue No. 1 in C Major BWV 846 & Prelude and Fugue in E minor BWV 855
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cello Suites BWV 1007-12
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin BWV 1001-1006 esp. Partita No. 2 v. Chaconne

*Level 3*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccata and Fugue in D minor BWV 565

*Level 4*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor BWV 582
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 147 "Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben"
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Great Fantasia and Fugue in G minor BWV 542 "The Great"

*Level 5* 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 208 Was Mir Behagt inc. Sheep May Safely Graze
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Inventions and Sinfonias (Two & Three Part Interventions)	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Orgelbüchlein BWV 599-644 esp. BWV 618 "O Lamm Gottes"
Bach, Johann Sebastian: French Suites BWV 812-817 esp. Suite No. 5 VII. Gigue
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 4 "Christ lag in Todes Banden"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Flute Sonatas, BWV 1030-1035	
Geminiani, Francesco: 6 Concerto Grossi, Op. 2
*Geminiani, Francesco	6 Concerto Grossi, Op. 3*

*Level 6*
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 106 "Gottes Zeit ist die allerbeste Zeit"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 21 "Ich hatte viel Bekümmernis"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Concerto for Four Harpsichords BWV 1065	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue in D minor BWV 903	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccata and Fugue in D minor BWV 538 "Dorian"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 202 "Wedding Cantata"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccata, Adagio and Fugue BWV 564	
Locatelli, Pietro: XII Concerti Cioè Violino solo con XXIV Capricci ad libitum "L'Arte del Violino" Op. 3 
Roman, Johann Helmich: Drottningholm Musique	
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonata in C SW 39 "Partita Grande" 
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonata in A SW 12 
Locatelli, Pietro: 12 Concerti Grossi Op. 1	
Zipoli, Domenico: Elevazione for Cello And Oboe	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Lutheran Masses BWV 233-236	
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonata in D, SW 18 esp. 6. Passacaglia*

A break from Bach for me today, starting with one of my favourite pieces:










Zipoli: Elevazione

Robert Haydon Clark & Consort Of London










Geminiani: 6 Concerto Grossi, Op. 2

Carlo Ipata, Auser Musici










Locatelli: 12 Concerti Grossi Op. 1 No. 2 & 8

Garcia Navarro, Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra

Locatelli: XII Concerti Cioè Violino solo con XXIV Capricci ad libitum "L'Arte del Violino" Op. 3 No. 11 & 12

Mainz Chamber Orchestra, Günter Kehr & Susanne Lautenbacher










Weiss: Lute Sonata in C SW 39 "Partita Grande"

Jakob Lindberg


----------



## marlow

Dig that rhythm in Bach!


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## marlow

A little Red Priest


----------



## Mandryka

marlow said:


> Dig that rhythm in Bach!


This is one that Elisabeth Schwarzkopf did, very well IMO.


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## Chilham

Chilham said:


> Weiss: Lute Sonata in C SW 39 "Partita Grande"
> 
> Jakob Lindberg


Well, that's delightful!


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Brandenburg Concertos

*Level 2*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 1 esp. Prelude and Fugue No. 1 in C Major BWV 846 & Prelude and Fugue in E minor BWV 855
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cello Suites BWV 1007-12
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin BWV 1001-1006 esp. Partita No. 2 v. Chaconne

*Level 3*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccata and Fugue in D minor BWV 565

*Level 4*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor BWV 582
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 147 "Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben"
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Great Fantasia and Fugue in G minor BWV 542 "The Great"

*Level 5* 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 208 Was Mir Behagt inc. Sheep May Safely Graze
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Inventions and Sinfonias (Two & Three Part Interventions)	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Orgelbüchlein BWV 599-644 esp. BWV 618 "O Lamm Gottes"
Bach, Johann Sebastian: French Suites BWV 812-817 esp. Suite No. 5 VII. Gigue
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 4 "Christ lag in Todes Banden"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Flute Sonatas, BWV 1030-1035	
Geminiani, Francesco: 6 Concerto Grossi, Op. 2
Geminiani, Francesco	6 Concerto Grossi, Op. 3

*Level 6*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 106 "Gottes Zeit ist die allerbeste Zeit"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 21 "Ich hatte viel Bekümmernis"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Concerto for Four Harpsichords BWV 1065	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue in D minor BWV 903	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccata and Fugue in D minor BWV 538 "Dorian"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 202 "Wedding Cantata"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccata, Adagio and Fugue BWV 564	
Locatelli, Pietro: XII Concerti Cioè Violino solo con XXIV Capricci ad libitum "L'Arte del Violino" Op. 3 
Roman, Johann Helmich: Drottningholm Musique	
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonata in C SW 39 "Partita Grande" 
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonata in A SW 12 
Locatelli, Pietro: 12 Concerti Grossi Op. 1	
Zipoli, Domenico: Elevazione for Cello And Oboe	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Lutheran Masses BWV 233-236	
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonata in D, SW 18 esp. 6. Passacaglia
*Locatelli, Pietro: XII Sonate à Violino solo e Basso da Camera Op. 6*

*Level 7*
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Partita in A minor for solo flute, BWV 1013 
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonata in A, Weiss SW 29 "L'Infidele"	
Fasch, Johann Friedrich: Suite No. 2 in B-Flat	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 61	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Prelude and Fugue for Organ BWV 543	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 170 "Vergnügte Ruh, beliebte Seelenlust" esp. i. Aria
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cello Sonatas BWV 1027-29	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccatas, BWV 910-916	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantatas BWV 152	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantatas BWV 202	
Giustini, Ludovico: 12 Sonate cla Cimbali di Piano e Forte	
Taglioni, Giulio: Alexander's Feast	
Viadana, Lodovico: Cento Concerti Ecclesiastici	
Viadana, Lodovico: Sinfonie Musicali a 8	
Marcello, Benedetto: Concerto for Recorders	
Marcello, Benedetto: Estro Poetico Armonico	
Marcello, Benedetto: Il Teatro all Moda	
Porpora, Nicola: Arianna in Nasso	
Porpora, Nicola: Meride e Selinunte esp. Torbido Intorno al Core
Porpora, Nicola: Polifermo*

Trying out Fasch for the first time, then heading back up the listing today:










Fasch: Overture (Suite) in B-Flat Major

Hans-Martin Linde, Cappella Coloniensis










Bach: French Suites

Murray Perahia


----------



## Mandryka

I think Zipoli wrote some interesting music, music which transcends the formulae of the epoch, not necessarily that cello and oboe thing for me, but still, worth a try.


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## Mandryka

When I was at school I absolutely loved Karl Richter playing _Christ lag in Todes Banden_, with Dietrich Fischer Dieskau. I still think the performance is unbelievably moving - the nuance, and the colour, which FiDi brings to each consonant and vowel in _Hier ist das rechter Osterlamm_ is really powerful. He's on good form in that cantata.

_Vergnügte Ruh, beliebte Seelenlust_ is also a major masterpiece IMO. It's just astonishing music, inventive and moving. And _Gottes Zeit ist die allerbeste Zeit_ is so full of joy, it's bound to slap a smile on your face.


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## Kreisler jr

Mandryka said:


> And _Gottes Zeit ist die allerbeste Zeit_ is so full of joy, it's bound to slap a smile on your face.


Especially: 
Bestelle dein Haus, denn du wirst sterben und nicht lebendig bleiben. [Get your house in order because you will die and not remain alive]
Es ist der alte Bund: Mensch, du musst sterben! [It is the old covenant: man, you must die!]

It's a great cantata, but the first part is rather gloomy...


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## hammeredklavier

Vivaldi "In furore iustissimae irae"


----------



## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> Especially:
> Bestelle dein Haus, denn du wirst sterben und nicht lebendig bleiben. [Get your house in order because you will die and not remain alive]
> Es ist der alte Bund: Mensch, du musst sterben! [It is the old covenant: man, you must die!]
> 
> It's a great cantata, but the first part is rather gloomy...


Ah well, it's about 20 years since I last heard it! And I now see it is called Trauerkantate and indeed Actus Tragicus. But they welcomed death in those days - Komm sußer tot.


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## Chilham

*Level 1*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Brandenburg Concertos

*Level 2*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 1 esp. Prelude and Fugue No. 1 in C Major BWV 846 & Prelude and Fugue in E minor BWV 855
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cello Suites BWV 1007-12
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin BWV 1001-1006 esp. Partita No. 2 v. Chaconne

*Level 3*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccata and Fugue in D minor BWV 565

*Level 4*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor BWV 582
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 147 "Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben"
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Great Fantasia and Fugue in G minor BWV 542 "The Great"

*Level 5* 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 208 Was Mir Behagt inc. Sheep May Safely Graze
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Inventions and Sinfonias (Two & Three Part Interventions) 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Orgelbüchlein BWV 599-644 esp. BWV 618 "O Lamm Gottes"
Bach, Johann Sebastian: French Suites BWV 812-817 esp. Suite No. 5 VII. Gigue
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 4 "Christ lag in Todes Banden" 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Flute Sonatas, BWV 1030-1035 
Geminiani, Francesco: 6 Concerto Grossi, Op. 2
Geminiani, Francesco 6 Concerto Grossi, Op. 3

*Level 6*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 106 "Gottes Zeit ist die allerbeste Zeit" 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 21 "Ich hatte viel Bekümmernis" 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Concerto for Four Harpsichords BWV 1065 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue in D minor BWV 903 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccata and Fugue in D minor BWV 538 "Dorian" 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 202 "Wedding Cantata" 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccata, Adagio and Fugue BWV 564 
Locatelli, Pietro: XII Concerti Cioè Violino solo con XXIV Capricci ad libitum "L'Arte del Violino" Op. 3 
Roman, Johann Helmich: Drottningholm Musique 
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonata in C SW 39 "Partita Grande" 
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonata in A SW 12 
Locatelli, Pietro: 12 Concerti Grossi Op. 1 
Zipoli, Domenico: Elevazione for Cello And Oboe 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Lutheran Masses BWV 233-236 
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonata in D, SW 18 esp. 6. Passacaglia
Locatelli, Pietro: XII Sonate à Violino solo e Basso da Camera Op. 6

*Level 7*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Partita in A minor for solo flute, BWV 1013 
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonata in A, Weiss SW 29 "L'Infidele" 
Fasch, Johann Friedrich: Suite No. 2 in B-Flat 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 61 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Prelude and Fugue for Organ BWV 543 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 170 "Vergnügte Ruh, beliebte Seelenlust" esp. i. Aria
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cello Sonatas BWV 1027-29 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccatas, BWV 910-916 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantatas BWV 152 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantatas BWV 202 
Giustini, Ludovico: 12 Sonate cla Cimbali di Piano e Forte 
Taglioni, Giulio: Alexander's Feast 
Viadana, Lodovico: Cento Concerti Ecclesiastici 
Viadana, Lodovico: Sinfonie Musicali a 8 
Marcello, Benedetto: Concerto for Recorders 
Marcello, Benedetto: Estro Poetico Armonico 
Marcello, Benedetto: Il Teatro all Moda 
Porpora, Nicola: Arianna in Nasso 
Porpora, Nicola: Meride e Selinunte esp. Torbido Intorno al Core
Porpora, Nicola: Polifermo
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonatas in D SW 2 esp. 1. Prelude, 7 Gigue
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonatas in D SW 11 
Weiss, Sylvius Leopold: Lute Sonatas in G SW 22 
Geminiani, Francesco: 6 Concerto Grossi, Op. 7 
Geminiani, Francesco: Symphony in G Major 
Geminiani, Francesco: Violin Sonatas 
Fasch, Johann Friedrich: 6 Sonatas à 3 et à 4 
Boismortier, Joseph Bodin de: Six Concertos for Five Flutes 
Brescianello, Giuseppe: Chaconne in A Major 
Veracini, Francesco: Adriano in Siria 
Veracini, Francesco: La Clemenza di Tito 
Ristori, Giovanni: Calandro 
Leo, Leonardo: La Morte d'Abele 
Roman, Johann Helmich: 12 Flute Sonatas 
Roman, Johann Helmich: Sinfonias Musica Sveciae 
Roman, Johann Helmich: Violin Concertos
Roman, Johann Helmich: Golovin Music
Locatelli, Pietro: X Sonate VI à Violino solo e Basso e IV à Trè Op. 8
Locatelli, Pietro: XII Sonate à Flauto traversiere solo e Basso Op. 2
Locatelli, Pietro: VI Concerti à quattro Op. 7
Wassenaer, Count Unico Wilhelm van: 6 Concertos Armonici

Finishing up this period today:










Bach: Cantata BWV 21

Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent, La Chapelle Royale










Bach: Cantata BWV 106

Sir John Eliot Gardiner, English Baroque Soloists










Bach: Concerto for Four Harpsichords

Musica Amphion, Pieter-Jan Belder, Siebe Henstra, Menno Van Delft, Vincent van Laar










Bach: Flute Partita BWV 1013

Ashley Solomon, Terence Charlston










Brescianello: Chaconne in A Major

Vaclav Luks, Ła Cetra Baroque Orchestra Basel, David Plantier

Bach in Leipzig up next.


----------



## Mandryka

Anner Bylsma recorded his transcription of BWV 1013 -- I like it very much.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Anner Bylsma recorded his transcription of BWV 1013 -- I like it very much.


Thanks. I enjoyed that very much more than the flute version above.


----------



## Chilham

JS Bach's "Liepzig" works this week, together with other composers born 1696-1699 who aren't specifically identified as being part of the Galant or Empfindsamkeit styles. We'll spend some time with those composers next week.

First up, the "Must-listen" piece for the week:

*Level 1*
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung IV: Goldberg Variations BWV 988*

For me today:










Bach: Goldberg Variations 1981

Glenn Gould

The listing in pianozach's Beginner's Guide to Classical Music is linked above and here, and there's an ongoing discussion on the work and the various recordings here.


----------



## pianozach

Chilham said:


> JS Bach's "Liepzig" works this week, together with other composers born 1696-1699 who aren't specifically identified as being part of the Galant or Empfindsamkeit styles. We'll spend some time with those composers next week.
> 
> First up, the "Must-listen" piece for the week:
> 
> *Level 1*
> *Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung IV: Goldberg Variations BWV 988*
> 
> For me today:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bach: Goldberg Variations 1981
> 
> Glenn Gould
> 
> The listing in pianozach's Beginner's Guide to Classical Music is linked above and here, and there's an ongoing discussion on the work and the various recordings here.


Gould is funny. Not "ha ha" funny, but strange funny.

If you want a more traditional approach to *Bach*, you should probably turn elsewhere. For instance, *Grigory Sokolov*.








If you prefer the more non-anachronistic harpsichord, I really love THIS guy (*Jean Rondeau*) (I also included him in by post about the Goldberg Variations, but reposting the link is certainly called for):








*Gould* tends to put his own _*"spin"*_ on Bach. His interpretations _are_ valid, _*but*_ often not inside the normal box that you'll typically hear it played.

Now, I do love his interpretations, but would never compete using his templates. I don't have that kind of cred, and that is not what is expected. Then again, now and then, Gould will play supertraditional, probably just to shake things up a bit. So . . . while his interpretations and skill may be universally acclaimed, it is also likely NOT the interpretation Bach intended. :devil: That said, I doubt that Bach would have minded at all. Bach didn't really care HOW his music was performed or even on which instruments were performing it.


----------



## Luchesi

^^^^^^^
This below is troubling from Glenn Gould.. You might not want to ponder it.

The trouble begins when we start to be so impressed by the strategies of our systematized thought that we forget that it does relate to an obverse, that it is hewn from negation, that it is but very small security against the void of negation which surrounds it.


----------



## new but obsessed

Pianozach, thanks for the enlightening discussion of the piece. I had picked up the Gould disc of 1955 and 1981 recordings and found the '55 version very pleasant. I'll listen to the '81 side at some point. (I've only just finished the Ma disc of Cello suites and am still making my way through the Sonatas and Partitas; the 4+ hours of WTC are gonna take me a long time to get through also, but I will!)

On the whole, listening to this set of variations as a single unit (my first time listening to any set of variations, I think) is very enjoyable. Though I don't think I have the concentration nor the training to really hear the specific continuity between pieces -- maybe because Bach is so inventive? I imagine that's a very safe assumption on my part. I also assume that, as great as this is to listen to (in my case while reading the news or doing my web things), this would be even more fun to play and noodle around with. Between this and Well Tempered Clavier (which I also understand is somewhat an instructional/practice set) is the first time in my three decades of existence that I've ever had any interest in possibly learning to play an instrument. (Every time my parents put me in music lessons as a kid I found them incredibly boring! They should have made me listen to the great classics first, give me something to want to learn, rather than make me only hear my lousy self play the notes on the sheet) 

Back to your post: I looked up Rondeau and found that he has a new release from the past few months on Erato. I will check it out next. FWIW, Apple Music includes this description/advertisement of it:

French harpsichordist Jean Rondeau’s interpretation of Bach’s Goldberg Variations is conceived on an epic scale, lasting 107 minutes as opposed to a usual 73-80. But this isn’t a case of Rondeau just playing everything slowly. Instead, he takes every repeat—including one in the closing reprise of the aria—and adds numerous embellishments (not to mention a huge gap between Variations XV and XVI). Everything here speaks of deep consideration and concert experience before he went into the studio. There is, too, impressive playing: “Variation XIII” unfurls like an operatic aria, “Variation XX” sparkles as dialogue, and the so-called “Black Pearl” (“Variation XXV”) is spun out to great effect.


----------



## pianozach

new but obsessed said:


> Pianozach, thanks for the enlightening discussion of the piece. I had picked up the Gould disc of 1955 and 1981 recordings and found the '55 version very pleasant. I'll listen to the '81 side at some point. (I've only just finished the Ma disc of Cello suites and am still making my way through the Sonatas and Partitas; the 4+ hours of WTC are gonna take me a long time to get through also, but I will!)
> 
> On the whole, listening to this set of variations as a single unit (my first time listening to any set of variations, I think) is very enjoyable. Though I don't think I have the concentration nor the training to really hear the specific continuity between pieces -- maybe because Bach is so inventive? I imagine that's a very safe assumption on my part. I also assume that, as great as this is to listen to (in my case while reading the news or doing my web things), this would be even more fun to play and noodle around with. Between this and Well Tempered Clavier (which I also understand is somewhat an instructional/practice set) is the first time in my three decades of existence that I've ever had any interest in possibly learning to play an instrument. (Every time my parents put me in music lessons as a kid I found them incredibly boring! They should have made me listen to the great classics first, give me something to want to learn, rather than make me only hear my lousy self play the notes on the sheet)
> 
> Back to your post: I looked up Rondeau and found that he has a new release from the past few months on Erato. I will check it out next. FWIW, Apple Music includes this description/advertisement of it:
> 
> French harpsichordist Jean Rondeau's interpretation of Bach's Goldberg Variations is conceived on an epic scale, lasting 107 minutes as opposed to a usual 73-80. But this isn't a case of Rondeau just playing everything slowly. Instead, he takes every repeat-including one in the closing reprise of the aria-and adds numerous embellishments (not to mention a huge gap between Variations XV and XVI). Everything here speaks of deep consideration and concert experience before he went into the studio. There is, too, impressive playing: "Variation XIII" unfurls like an operatic aria, "Variation XX" sparkles as dialogue, and the so-called "Black Pearl" ("Variation XXV") is spun out to great effect.


This is fun.

I think it's easier to pick out *Gould*'s quirkiness listening to the WTC. There's several reasons for this: Notably all the pieces can be thought of as "stand-alone" works, and for many of them, there are numerous interpretive choices that can be made. And Gould often chooses the unexpected.

I like that. For many of the pieces, it's easy to take their complexity and cleverness for granted, and Gould shines light on them from different angles so that we can hear them differently.

As for *Rameau*, every choice he makes is "by the book". Taking repeats is perfectly acceptable. Extra ornamentation would have certainly been acceptable at the time the works were composed, just kind of forgotten over the centuries.

As for *both of them*, you can tell they _*LOVE*_ the music they are playing.


----------



## Chilham

A choice of works for you this Sunday :

*Level 1*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung IV: Goldberg Variations BWV 988
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: St. Matthew Passion
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Mass in B Minor*

I listened to part one of St. Matthew Passion yesterday evening:










Bach: St, Matthew Passion. Part I

Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent

My fourth listen but I've yet to really connect with the work. Next-up for me today:










Bach: Mass in B Minor

Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent

There's a current vote *here* for our favourite versions of this work. This was the first piece I listened to, "seriously", back in June 2020. Whilst trying to identify which version I should acquire, I came across the advice below on Quora. I found it to be super-useful, not just for this piece, so share it here. The question posed was simply, "Which is the best Bach Mass in C Minor?":

_"A wonderful question which, I'd argue, admits of no single answer. To oversimplify matters, let's begin by pointing out that performance styles have changed in the past century. There is a now-old saw that holds that when the recording era began Bach was performed slowly and Wagner fast, and that now it's the other way around.

For some listeners, Bach's mass should be a grand massif of terrible beauty. Others, generally the advocates of Historically Informed Performance (Gardiner, Hogwood, Herreweghe, Pinnock, et al.) have called our attention to how much Bach's music dances, how full of light and energy it is. I think, for this reason, one might wish to sample a handful of recordings. I'll call attention to such a handful here.

*Karl Richter, 1962*
Anyone who knows Richter's style will know its hallmarks: it's slow, thick, self-consciously grand. But the thing is, that tends to work for him, especially on massed choral pieces. Curtis Lindsay wrote a terrific answer recently about Richter's handling of the early cantata Christ lag in Todesbanden (BWV4). The grand effects of the B Minor Mass are similarly amenable to precisely the kind of treatment Curtis describes in his answer. This is a glorious recording after its own fashion, presenting a towering, majestic, decidedly non-HIP Bach. And you see that name, Fischer-Dieskau? That's Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, the most recorded artist of the twentieth century, easily one of the very greatest baritones ever to live, whom no less a singer than Elizabeth Schwarzkopf called a "born god," and who is the greatest male singer of German Lieder I've ever heard. He is devastating here, as on so many recordings of this period. His name alone would be enough to make this recording a must - and that despite the fact that, unlike, e.g., the St. Matthew Passion, the Mass in B Minor makes massive use of the chorus, and limits the role of the soloists (this is one of many salient differences between Bach's strategy in setting the mass and setting the passions). Anyway, this is a heavy, dripping, poignant account.

*Otto Klemperer, 1967*
Dame Janet Baker, Nicolai Gedda, Franz Crass - these are divinities, and Klemperer was a master. This recording is the Mass as celestial funeral procession, though - somehow more ethereal than Richter's version, angelic as that is, and quicker, too, but still overpowering in its slowness.

*Eugene Jochum, 1980*
This is Jochum's third recording of the Mass, and the first I ever owned. This is the last "slow" version I would recommend. I find it remarkable for the depth of the choral singing. When the lower male voices reenter in the Kyrie, I get goosebumps every time, as though the good Lord had just entered the building. This is longer than Klemperer's overall, but feels shorter; and where Klemperer feels like an inescapable cloud, this feels like a spiritual bulldozer. Again, the singers are divine.

*Frans Brüggen, 2010*
Skip ahead a generation. John Eliot Gardiner and others have begun to rethink Baroque performance in general, reintroducing period instruments and, in general, speeding things up. This version of the Mass is a quarter-hour shorter, or more, than any of those above. Its instrumentation is light; its chorus remains ethereal, but now it swims in colour and light, not the smoky darkness of a church. Here the empyrean is a dynamic, kinetic place. I listen to Richter, Klemperer, and Jochum when I want the sense of the sacred to pummel me and fill me, atheist or not, with some kind of holy dread. I listen to this when I want to feel buoyed up, when I want to feel the Mass as a joyous triumph rather than the ineluctable movement of sacred history expressed in marmoreal massed chorus and lead-footed gravity.

*Philippe Herreweghe, 2012*
One of the towering figures in HIP delivers his third and greatest rendition of the Mass with the Collegium Vocale Gent. He's a wee bit more formal than Brüggen to my ears, but no less swift, and utterly beautiful. This is the Mass as thing of light, a Lutheran Paradiso. Beautifully sung and played.

My suggestion is to pick one of the first three and one of the last two. The Mass is worth hearing in older and newer presentations, which highlight different aspects of it, different ways of hearing it. I have all five and several others - including Gardiner's 1985 rather transitional Archiv recording of it - and regret spending money on none of them. But then, I think this is one of the summits of all art, in any medium or form, and have listened to it with awe for half my life now."_


----------



## new but obsessed

Listening to this St M Passion will be cold comfort as I've been away from my home in LA on extended travel and missing all of LA Opera's performances it. Especially as they were doing a ballet staging of it, I was especially excited for a chance to see it. Oh well. At least I'll be back in town in time to see Aida...


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> A choice of works for you this Sunday :
> 
> *Level 1*
> Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung IV: Goldberg Variations BWV 988
> *Bach, Johann Sebastian: St. Matthew Passion
> Bach, Johann Sebastian: Mass in B Minor*
> 
> I listened to part one of St. Matthew Passion yesterday evening:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bach: St, Matthew Passion. Part I
> 
> Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent
> 
> My fourth listen but I've yet to really connect with the work. Next-up for me today:
> 
> [[/I]


Why only Part 1 of the Matthew Passion? For me the highlight is in Part 2 - from _Am abend, da es kuhle war _to the end. I think this is the music that Furtwangler asked to have played at his funeral - I would have it played at mine, except it's about half an hour!


----------



## marlow

Luchesi said:


> ^^^^^^^
> This below is troubling from Glenn Gould.. You might not want to ponder it.
> 
> The trouble begins when we start to be so impressed by the strategies of our systematized thought that we forget that it does relate to an obverse, that it is hewn from negation, that it is but very small security against the void of negation which surrounds it.


One of Gould's statements that is not worth pondering as it's meaningless drivel. I always tell young speakers / writers if they don't communicate clearly in language people can understand they are wasting their time, however profound they sound. GG needed to stick at when he was good at which was playing the piano


----------



## Mandryka

marlow said:


> One of Gould's statements that is not worth pondering as it's meaningless drivel. I always tell young speakers / writers if they don't communicate clearly in language people can understand they are wasting their time, however profound they sound.


It seems absolutely clear to me, and indeed I think it is true. Let me try to explain.

There is an established, orthodox, way of thinking.
It is very easy to see this way of thinking as obvious, inevitable. 
That is wrong, its "obverse", an alternative to established ideas, is possible.
It is possible that someone will challenge the establishment, and if and when they do, the orthodox way of thinking is defenceless.

I wonder if Gould was aware of Pierre Bourdieu


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Why only Part 1 of the Matthew Passion? For me the highlight is in Part 2 - from _Am abend, da es kuhle war _to the end. I think this is the music that Furtwangler asked to have played at his funeral - I would have it played at mine, except it's about half an hour!


All I had time for. I'll revisit Part II on your recommendation later in the week. For today:

*Level 1*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung IV: Goldberg Variations BWV 988
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: St. Matthew Passion
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Mass in B Minor

Level 2
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 2 esp. Prelude and Fugue in E-flat major BWV 876
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Concerto in D Minor for Two Violins BWV 1043 esp. II. Largo ma non tanto
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Orchestral Suites BWV 1066-1069: Suite No. 3. ii "Air"

Waiting on deck:










Bach: Concerto in D Minor for Two Violin

Isabelle Faust, Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin, Bernhard Forck, Xenia Loeffler










Bach: Orchestral Suites

Freiburger Barockorchester, Gottfried von der Goltz, Petra Müllejans










Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 2

Angela Hewitt*


----------



## Chilham

Very much enjoyed the Concerto yesterday, and the Suites as always.

*Level 1*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung IV: Goldberg Variations BWV 988
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: St. Matthew Passion
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Mass in B Minor

Level 2
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 2 esp. Prelude and Fugue in E-flat major BWV 876
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Concerto in D Minor for Two Violins BWV 1043 esp. II. Largo ma non tanto
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Orchestral Suites BWV 1066-1069: Suite No. 3. ii "Air"

Level 3
Bach, Johann Sebastian: The Art of Fugue
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 140 Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme

Level 4
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Magnificat 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 1 BWV 1052	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Violin Concerto No. 1

Trying to get to grips with the Art of Fugue today and if there's time, a couple or three other pieces:










Bach: The Art of Fugue

Angela Hewitt










Bach: The Art of Fugue arr. for string ensemble

Rachel Podger, Brecon Baroque










Bach: Keyboard Concerto No. 1

Florian Donderer, Die Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen, Hélène Grimaud










Bach: Violin Concerto No. 1

Isabelle Faust, Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin, Bernhard Forck, Xenia Loeffler










Bach: Canata BWV 140

English Baroque Soloists, John Eliot Gardiner, Monteverdi Choir*


----------



## pianozach

I don't think that *Bach* wrote _*anything*_ that sucked.


----------



## new but obsessed

pianozach said:


> I don't think that *Bach* wrote _*anything*_ that sucked.


I have to say, 6 contrapuncti (sp?) into a string quartet version of The Art of Fugue, and I've found them all compelling listens. For something that wasn't necessarily written as entertainment, that's incredible


----------



## Chilham

pianozach said:


> I don't think that *Bach* wrote _*anything*_ that sucked.


I'm fast coming to that conclusion.

*Level 1*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung IV: Goldberg Variations BWV 988
Bach, Johann Sebastian: St. Matthew Passion
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Mass in B Minor

*Level 2*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 2 esp. Prelude and Fugue in E-flat major BWV 876
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Concerto in D Minor for Two Violins BWV 1043 esp. II. Largo ma non tanto
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Orchestral Suites BWV 1066-1069 esp. Suite No. 3. ii "Air"

*Level 3*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: The Art of Fugue
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 140 Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme

*Level 4*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Magnificat
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 1 BWV 1052	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Violin Concerto No. 1
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung I: Keyboard Partitas BWV 825-830 esp. Partita No. 1 in B-flat Major
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 4 BWV 1055	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 5 BWV 1056	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 2 BWV 1053	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 80 "Ein Feste Burg ist unser Gott"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Christmas Oratorio, BWV 248	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 3 BWV 1054*

*Level 5*
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Violin Concerto No. 2*

I have to design a one-hour workshop for a client, so hoping these will inspire me today:










Bach: Keyboard Partitas BWV 825-830

Igor Levit










Bach: Violin Concerto No. 2

Isabelle Faust, Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin, Bernhard Forck, Xenia Loeffler


----------



## Mandryka

new but obsessed said:


> I have to say, 6 contrapuncti (sp?) into a string quartet version of The Art of Fugue, and I've found them all compelling listens. For something that wasn't necessarily written as entertainment, that's incredible


Get towards the end, the big canons at the end -- the ones which weren't included in the edition published in Bach's lifetime. That's where something really magic can happen IMO.


----------



## hammeredklavier

pianozach said:


> I don't think that Bach wrote anything that sucked.


None of 18th century composers didn't adhere to the 18th century "rules of good taste". There is this rhetoric often said about Bach and Mozart "they never wrote a bad work", -but it depends on what you mean by "bad"- There's stuff people consider as "potboilers" or "juvenilia", just like other 18th century composers. But of course, there's stylistic emphasis on harmony, something Germanic composers of church background shared.



new but obsessed said:


> something that wasn't necessarily written as entertainment


"Bach gave the title Das Wohltemperirte Clavier to a book of preludes and fugues in all 24 keys, major and minor, dated 1722, composed "for the profit and use of musical youth desirous of learning, and especially for the pastime of those already skilled in this study"." 
The purpose of the Art of the Fugue was most likely the same. Lots of 18th century composers employed by the church wrote versets (eg. look at Pasterwitz) and other similar collections of contrapuntal pieces out of necessity (for educational and recreational purposes). That was part of their tradition of profession and craftsmanship. Also, due to the Baroque idiomatic use of rhythm and dynamics in Bach, it may sound to the modern ears like it's not for "entertainment", but the same can be said about just about anything Baroque; Purcell fantasies for viols and Biber sonatas. Once you understand how a fugue or a canon from those times works, there's nothing hard to "get" (I'm not implying Bach lacks inspiration or mastery, by this). I think it's nonsensical to think Bach somehow had an "avant-garde" mindset, actually intended to write things not for "entertainment". Bach himself in his time never actually thought in that way, just like how he thought the Doctrine of the Affections was always the way to compose music; he would have thought the music of the later eras with their mood swings (involving multiple themes), for instance, as lacking focus and confusing.



tdc said:


> A while ago MR posted a topic where he suggested Bach was critical of Rameau's theory of harmony and he suggested Bach was old fashioned in his outlook on music. I responded that Rameau's theory was a simplification of the contrapuntal approach to composition. So yes, I have basically thought this for a long time (I don't think MR does, he views counterpoint as a more old fashioned and outdated approach to music making as far as I can tell).
> Perhaps this is also related to why Bach didn't write any books on composition but used his music as his teaching material.


----------



## new but obsessed

Mandryka said:


> Get towards the end, the big canons at the end -- the ones which weren't included in the edition published in Bach's lifetime. That's where something really magic can happen IMO.


I finished it up shortly after writing that post. Indeed, not a single weak piece, thoroughly enjoyable. But, I'd say my highlight from today's listening was the opening choral of Cantata 140 "Wachet auf". Just as several days ago when the opening Coro of Cantata 147 "Herz und Mund..." was another instant favorite.

And in response to hammeredklavier. I don't disagree. In fact, I had thought to contrast it with 20th century experimental work (of which I am also a fan). I had read that, as with Well Tempered Clavier, The Art of Fugue was likely an intellectual or instructional work rather than one meant principally for performance before an audience. Yet, that it's so entertaining (in the sense of being pleasing to an audience rather than to the performer or the student) is a demonstration of his sheer talent.


----------



## Mandryka

Maybe we can agree about this: the main consumers of AoF were and are people who are interested in counterpoint. Not a mass market, in other words. The cantatas, including _Wachet auf_, were written for a large middle brow popular target market, basically anyone and everyone whose bum landed on a pew, and the market has remained pretty well unchanged since the 18th century -- albeit now spotify replaces the church.

It's the difference between Mallarme's poetry and Pickwick Papers; or between something like Krapp's Last Tape and Les Mis.


----------



## Chilham

Found myself with some additional listening time today.










Bach: Keyboard Concerto No. 2 BWV 1053

Academy of St. Martin in the Fields & Murray Perahia










Bach: Keyboard Concerto No. 3 BWV 1054

Bernard Labadie, Les Violons du Roy & Alexandre Tharaud










Bach: Keyboard Concerto No. 4 BWV 1055

Angela Hewitt, Australian Chamber Orchestra & Richard Tognetti










Bach: Keyboard Concerto No. 6 BWV 1056

David Fray & Die Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung IV: Goldberg Variations BWV 988
Bach, Johann Sebastian: St. Matthew Passion
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Mass in B Minor

*Level 2*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 2 esp. Prelude and Fugue in E-flat major BWV 876
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Concerto in D Minor for Two Violins BWV 1043 esp. II. Largo ma non tanto
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Orchestral Suites BWV 1066-1069 esp. Suite No. 3. ii "Air"

*Level 3*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: The Art of Fugue
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 140 Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme

*Level 4*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Magnificat
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 1 BWV 1052	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Violin Concerto No. 1
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung I: Keyboard Partitas BWV 825-830 esp. Partita No. 1 in B-flat Major
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 4 BWV 1055	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 5 BWV 1056	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 2 BWV 1053	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 80 "Ein Feste Burg ist unser Gott"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Christmas Oratorio BWV 248	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 3 BWV 1054

*Level 5*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Violin Concerto No. 2
Bach, Johann Sebastian: The Musical Offering	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: St. John Passion	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung II: Italian Concerto	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Concerto for Two Harpsichords BWV 1060	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 211 "Schweigt Stille, Plaudert Nicht", "The Coffee Cantata"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Motet BWV 225-230 esp. BWV 227 Jesu Meine Freude, BWV 230 Lobet den Herrn, alle Heiden
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 6 BWV 1057	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: English Suites	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Great Eighteen "Leipzig" Chorale Preludes BWV 651-668 esp. BWV 668 Vor deinen Thron tret' ich allhier
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 51 "Jauchzet Gott in Allen Landen" 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 78 "Jesu, der du meine Seele"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 82 "Ich habe genug"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Six Trio Sonatas for Organ BWV 525-530

Seems like it's a day for some Cantatas:










Bach: Cantata BWV 51

Sabine Devieilhe, Raphaël Pichon & Pygmalion










Bach: Canata BWV 78

Malin Hartelius, Monteverdi Choir, John Eliot Gardiner, English Baroque Soloists, James Gilchrist, Peter Harvey, Robin Tyson & Richard Wyn Roberts










Bach: Canata BWV 82

English Baroque Soloists & John Eliot Gardiner










Bach: Motets

Monteverdi Choir, English Baroque Soloists & John Eliot Gardiner










Bach: St, John Passion

Philippe Herreweghe & Collegium Vocale Gent


----------



## Kreisler jr

Mandryka said:


> Maybe we can agree about this: the main consumers of AoF were and are people who are interested in counterpoint. Not a mass market, in other words. The cantatas, including _Wachet auf_, were written for a large middle brow popular target market, basically anyone and everyone whose bum landed on a pew, and the market has remained pretty well unchanged since the 18th century -- albeit now spotify replaces the church.


So there were hundreds of churches in Leipzig vying for customers so everyone could listen to the cantatas they were best pleased with? I am afraid there is no analogy with spotify whatsoever. There wasn't a market. Bach was a civil servant with a fixed income and the congregation could have done very little if they hadn't like his church music.

To the contrary, the few published works like Clavierübung (of which AoF might have been the 5th part in a sense, as some scholars claimed) were something one could purchase although the tiny market for this kind of music in print was hardly comparable with mass media in the 20th (or even printed music in the 19th century).


----------



## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> So there were hundreds of churches in Leipzig vying for customers so everyone could listen to the cantatas they were best pleased with?


The point is that the cantatas were popular products, designed to please the Leipzig church audience. Just as today the market for cantatas, or at least top hits like _Wachet auf_, is popular middle brow -- these people most likely accessing and paying through streaming.

The cantatas were bourgeois art, like musical theatre today.



Kreisler jr said:


> There wasn't a market.


That is wrong, of course there was!



Kreisler jr said:


> Bach was a civil servant with a fixed income and the congregation could have done very little if they hadn't like his church music.


Well they certainly complained about his organ music in Leipzig, and his management took action to keep their target market happy.



Kreisler jr said:


> To the contrary, the few published works like Clavierübung (of which AoF might have been the 5th part in a sense, as some scholars claimed) were something one could purchase although the tiny market for this kind of music in print was hardly comparable with mass media in the 20th (or even printed music in the 19th century).


The market was, I guess, like the market for poetry. Most poets sell their poetry mainly to other poets. The market of consumers is the same as the market of producers. AoF's market was people who were interested in the art of fugue -- 18th century musical nerds and geeks.


----------



## Miranna




----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> Well [the congregation] certainly complained about his organ music in Leipzig, and his management took action to keep their target market happy.


I don't think there were complaints in Leipzig about Bach's organ music. Perhaps you meant Arnstadt. After hearing Buxtehude play in Lübeck in 1705 Bach returned to Arnstadt full of new ideas and enthusiasm which he immediately put into practice in his playing. The congregation however was completely surprised and bewildered by his new musical ideas: there was considerable confusion during the singing of the chorales, caused by his 'surprising variations and irrelevant ornaments which obliterate the melody and confuse the congregation'. The Church Council resolved to reprimand Bach on his 'strange sounds' during the services. The Council further added the complaint that he had been "entertaining a strange damsel" in the organ loft of the church. It was whispered around town that 'Bach's organ had no stops'.


----------



## hammeredklavier

This is kute (BWV70 opening chorus):


----------



## Chilham

The St John Passion was the highlight of my listening yesterday.

I'm making a change from this week. Posting the seemingly never-ending lists on a Friday is counter-productive. There was perhaps an argument for including all of the works when we were listening to early music but it's become a 'dump' of data and only marginally useful. If a piece received four recommendations from the 36 sources I used, it's in. If it received three or less recommendations (Levels 6 & 7), I'll only include it if it's also part of our "Talk Classical Community's Favorite and Most Highly Recommend Works".

*Level 1*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung IV: Goldberg Variations BWV 988
Bach, Johann Sebastian: St. Matthew Passion
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Mass in B Minor

*Level 2*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 2 esp. Prelude and Fugue in E-flat major BWV 876
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Concerto in D Minor for Two Violins BWV 1043 esp. II. Largo ma non tanto
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Orchestral Suites BWV 1066-1069 esp. Suite No. 3. ii "Air"

*Level 3*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: The Art of Fugue
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 140 Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme

*Level 4*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Magnificat
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 1 BWV 1052	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Violin Concerto No. 1
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung I: Keyboard Partitas BWV 825-830 esp. Partita No. 1 in B-flat Major
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 4 BWV 1055	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 5 BWV 1056	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 2 BWV 1053	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 80 "Ein Feste Burg ist unser Gott"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Christmas Oratorio BWV 248	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 3 BWV 1054

*Level 5*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Violin Concerto No. 2
Bach, Johann Sebastian: The Musical Offering	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: St. John Passion	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung II: Italian Concerto	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Concerto for Two Harpsichords BWV 1060	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 211 "Schweigt Stille, Plaudert Nicht", "The Coffee Cantata"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Motet BWV 225-230 esp. BWV 227 Jesu Meine Freude, BWV 230 Lobet den Herrn, alle Heiden
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 6 BWV 1057	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: English Suites	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Great Eighteen "Leipzig" Chorale Preludes BWV 651-668 esp. BWV 668 Vor deinen Thron tret' ich allhier
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 51 "Jauchzet Gott in Allen Landen" 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 78 "Jesu, der du meine Seele"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 82 "Ich habe genug"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Six Trio Sonatas for Organ BWV 525-530	
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Concerto No. 7 BWV 1058*

*Level 6*
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 56 "Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Concerto for Two Harpsichords BWV 1061	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 105 Herr, gehe nicht ins Gericht	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung II: French Overture BWV 831	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 198 Funeral Ode for the Queen of Poland "Lass, Fürstin, lass noch einen Strahl" 
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Triple Concerto BWV 1044	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Ascension Oratorio "Lobet Gott in Seinen Reichen"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Easter Oratorio*

*Level 7*
*Bach, Johann Sebastian: Six Accompanied Violin Sonatas BWV 1014-1019	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 198	
Forqueray, Jean-Baptiste: Pièces de Viole Avec la Basse Continue	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 29 "Wir danken dir, Gott, wir danken dir"	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 209	
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 201 "Der Streit zwischen Phoebus und Pan"*

I'm back up the list today on Mandryka's recommendation to try out part two of the St Matthew Passion.


----------



## Mandryka

The Leipzig chorales are well worth a listen. Some of them have been transcribed for piano, most famously by composer and pianist Samuil Feinberg. On this youtube Feinberg is playing one of them -- twice. The second recording, which starts at about 5.30, was made just before he died, he knew his death was immanent and that this was going to be the last big musical gesture he would ever make.






I wonder if you will enjoy the trio sonata from Musical Offering. It starts at 26.50 here


----------



## pianozach

Our high school "Advanced Treble Choir" just competed with one of Bach's *Domine Deus*' and walked off with a "Superior" rating (the highest rating) from a local Choir Festival.

I'm actually don't know which Mass it's from, but our version is in A minor. It's _*this*_ one, although we sing it far better than this choir of young men, although I'd wager if this choir had competed in a Middle School Festival, they, too, would likely get a Superior, as it's probably considered an "advanced" piece well being what would normally be expected of Middle School boys.






Anyone recognize which particular Mass it's from?


----------



## Luchesi

Chilham said:


> Found myself with some additional listening time to
> 
> You reminded me of the opposite, of when I was on a remote assignment in the military and we didn't listen to music for 6 weeks. Not one note.
> 
> It was quite an experience to hear music again!
> 
> added: Everyone should try it once in their life. It might be why people like Bizet were so stimulated by new music.


----------



## Chilham

A new week and a new time period. The music from the transition from Baroque to Classical, referred to as Galant and Empfindsamkeit styles. Not to say that all of the music this week demonstrate those styles. Just that these composers are most often associated with them. So, a week of music from Carl Frederich Abel, CPE Bach, JC Bach, WF Bach, Christoph Graun, Domenico Scarlatti, Johann Stamitz, Giuseppe Tartini and the non-operatic work of Christoph Willibald Gluck - his operatic work to come in our first full opera week next week.

First up, the most re commended work of the week.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
*Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Sonata in G Minor "Devil's Trill"*

Not an era that I know much about at all so I'm looking forward to the week starting with:










Tartini: Violin Sonata in G Minor "Devil's Trill"

Anne-Sophie Mutter, Trondheim Soloists


----------



## new but obsessed

I love the little story I found on the wiki for this piece. About Tartini's dream of the devil playing his violin, then him waking to try and write it all down. Certainly similar to Robert Johnson at the crossroads.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Sonata in G Minor "Devil's Trill"

*Level 4*
*Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Magnificat in D Major	
Scarlatti, Domenico: Essercizi per gravicembalo K. 1-30 esp. K. 9 "Pastorale", K. 11, K. 20, K. 29, K. 30 "Cat's Fugue"*

For me today:










CPE Bach:	Magnificat in D Major

RIAS Kammerchor, Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin, Hans-Christoph Rademann



















Scarlatti: Sonatas

Angela Hewitt


----------



## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> CPE Bach:	Magnificat in D Major


Et misericordia eius


----------



## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> A new week and a new time period. The music from the transition from Baroque to Classical, referred to as Galant and Empfindsamkeit styles. Not to say that all of the music this week demonstrate those styles. Just that these composers are most often associated with them. So, a week of music from Carl Frederich Abel, CPE Bach, JC Bach, WF Bach, Christoph Graun, Domenico Scarlatti, Johann Stamitz, Giuseppe Tartini and the non-operatic work of Christoph Willibald Gluck - his operatic work to come in our first full opera week next week.


Also, we'll uncover a bit of the "tradition" of singspiels as we go; involving figures such as Adam Hiller (although pretty much none of his stuff has been recorded), Jiří Antonín Benda (Mozart's favorite Lutheran kapellmeister) Johann Friedrich Reichardt, Michael Haydn (though his later singspiels haven't been recorded).

Die Hochzeit auf der Alm, Schäfergedicht in 2 Aufzügen MH 107 (1768)




"Wo wahre Treue die Herzen verstrickt"


----------



## Chilham

hammeredklavier said:


> Also, we'll uncover a bit of the "tradition" of singspiels as we go; involving figures such as Adam Hiller (although pretty much none of his stuff has been recorded), Jiří Antonín Benda (Mozart's favorite Lutheran kapellmeister) Johann Friedrich Reichardt, Michael Haydn (though his later singspiels haven't been recorded)....


Cool. I hadn't linked these composers specifically with this period so had placed a couple of operas by Benda to next week, and the works of Michael Haydn, Hiller and Reichardt that have been recommended to later weeks. Happy to explore them this week.

I'm only aware of 'singspiel' as a style of opera used by Mozart. Interested to discover more.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Georg Benda - Romeo und Julie (1776)
full playlist on youtube: 







"Gotter's libretto eliminates many of Shakespeare's characters and most of the original play's comedic elements. It does, however, adhere to unities of time and place. Gotter's text also makes Julie the strongest and most important character in the opera, which is further reflected in Benda's score. Gotter also gave his version of Romeo and Juliet a happy ending, in accordance with operatic tradition at that time."
(In Act 3), "Romeo resolves to enter the tomb to bid a final farewell to his bride, and then to kill himself. As he is about to stab himself, Julie revives and they sing a rapturous duet of joy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeo_und_Julie




"O, meine Julie"




"Beste, du lebest?"


----------



## new but obsessed

Enjoying this week, thus far. Today's Scarlatti sonatas were lovely (though I stuck to your reduced list of recommended excerpts). And, like the Devil's Trill, the Cat's Fugue comes with yet another delightful anecdote. I grew up repeatedly watching a VHS of the Aristocats, so the anecdote was easy to picture. 

Before this journey, I only ever really listened to large orchestral works and operas. So this has opened my eyes to the wonderful world of concertos, quartets, solo pieces, etc. 

Off to CPE Bach next.


----------



## pianozach

new but obsessed said:


> Enjoying this week, thus far. Today's *Scarlatti* sonatas were lovely (though I stuck to your reduced list of recommended excerpts). And, like the Devil's Trill, the Cat's Fugue comes with yet another delightful anecdote. I grew up repeatedly watching a VHS of the Aristocats, so the anecdote was easy to picture.
> 
> Before this journey, I only ever really listened to large orchestral works and operas. So this has opened my eyes to the wonderful world of concertos, quartets, solo pieces, etc.
> 
> Off to *CPE Bach* next.


I've played some Scarlatti and CPE Bach back in the day. One of the CPE things was actually written partially in figured bass, the only time I've ever had that opportunity to use that knowledge.


----------



## hammeredklavier

There are C.P.E. Bach works I value, but with the keyboard works, I could not pass tests like this no matter how much I listened to the works. Howabout you?;


hammeredklavier said:


> 50 randomly-selected, unidentified 20-second excerpts from 50 different C.P.E. Bach keyboard sonatas (each excerpt extracted from a different work). How many can you identify?


----------



## hammeredklavier

Die Wahrheit der Natur, Ein Singspiel MH 118 (1769)

"Kann etwas Vergnügendes sein - Die Seele wird fröhlich..."





"The story of Die Wahrheit der Natur, or The Truth of Nature, revolves around Mentor's quest for true art, which here is aided by the three Graces, Aglaia (Brightness), Euphrosyne (Joyfulness) and Thalia (Bloom), the daughters of Nature. It is through this quest that they meet some more questionable characters including Herr Vollstreich, a vain master of song, and the boastful painter Herr von Wurmstich, as well as an ill-mannered schoolmaster and his wife. The comic text is from the allegorical poem by the Benedictine monk Florian Reichssiegel, which he based on antiquity and the tales of Greek mythology." -Stuart Sillitoe (musicweb-international.com)

"Bei zischenden Schrofen"




"Nimm von mir Aglaien hin! - Kritiker! Füllet mit..." 





"Orpheus soll in der Mitte mit gespornter Laute sein"




"Der Trutzerl war a wackara Hund" 



"Alexander und Philotas" 



"Ich suche die Natur" 



"Fähnium-Marche" 



"Fürsten! Euch geht dieses an" 



"Ich liebe das Essen"


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Sonata in G Minor "Devil's Trill"

*Level 4*
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Magnificat in D Major	
Scarlatti, Domenico: Essercizi per gravicembalo K. 1-30 esp. K. 9 "Pastorale", K. 11, K. 20, K. 29, K. 30 "Cat's Fugue"

*Level 5*
*Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in E Major K. 380 "Cortège"	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: "Hamburg" Symphonies esp. Wq. 182.2, 182.3
Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Concerto in D Minor	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Cello Concerto in A Major*

The first symphonies of our journey:










CPE Bach:	"Hamburg" Symphonies Wq. 182.2, 182.3

Amandine Beyer, Gli Incogniti










Tartini: Violin Concerto in D Minor

Chouchane Siranossian, Venice Baroque Orchestra, Andrea Marcon










Bach: Cello Concerto in A Major

Steven Isserlis, The Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen


----------



## Mandryka

pianozach said:


> I've played some Scarlatti and CPE Bach back in the day. One of the CPE things was actually written partially in figured bass, the only time I've ever had that opportunity to use that knowledge.


If you like Scarlatti, then try Charles Avison's concertos based on Scarlatti sonatas. For some reason Scarlatti was very popular in England in the 18th century, as these trio sonatas testify. It's a long time since I heard them, but I remember they were fun -- for me funner than the originals.

Scarlatti seems to me rather similar to Rameau. Once I was at a concert -- it was Sokolov, and he plays a huge number of encores, he likes doing encores. Anyway I was absolutely sure he did a Scarlatti sonata, I mean, I know this music! I know what Scarlatti sounds like! But no, I was wrong, it was a bit of something by Rameau.


----------



## hammeredklavier

With C.P.E.'s Wq.182, it seems to me that No.3 (with its sudden "attaca" to the slow movement) and No.5 are most popular.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Der Kampf der Buße und Bekehrung (1768)
The harmonies; "Jesu, der den Tod besiegt" 



"Es ist nicht g'nug" 






hammeredklavier said:


> What I've found especially memorable about the work are the fluid juxtaposition of solos and choruses in the "Uns erhalte, uns regiere" (15:48), the harmonies of the extended arias such as the "Es ist nicht g'nug" (25:52), and the drama of the "Gedenk an Sinai" (32:59):


----------



## Chilham

hammeredklavier said:


> Der Kampf der Buße und Bekehrung (1768)
> The harmonies; "Jesu, der den Tod besiegt"
> 
> 
> 
> "Es ist nicht g'nug"


Is this singspiel?


----------



## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> Is this singspiel?


an oratorio.



hammeredklavier said:


> Die Hochzeit auf der Alm, Schäfergedicht in 2 Aufzügen MH 107 (1768)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Wo wahre Treue die Herzen verstrickt"






"Gequaltes Herz! Entdecke mir die Wahrheit deiner pein"

Btw, it's also quite striking if you compare their similarities (in terms of general harmonic style) with Mozart's, for instance,

Gequaltes Herz: 



Non so più cosa son: 




Gequaltes Herz: 



Missa longa K.262: 








"Auf! Es kommt der Fruhling an"




"Lobet ihr Krafte den Schopfer der Welt"




"O Meine Phyllis! Ich lebe vergnugt"


----------



## Chilham

hammeredklavier said:


> an oratorio...."


The general works of Michael Haydn come in several weeks time. You said we'd uncover the tradition of singspiel this week. Tell us more about singspiel.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Sonata in G Minor "Devil's Trill"

*Level 4*
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Magnificat in D Major	
Scarlatti, Domenico: Essercizi per gravicembalo K. 1-30 esp. K. 9 "Pastorale", K. 11, K. 20, K. 29, K. 30 "Cat's Fugue"

*Level 5*
Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in E Major K. 380 "Cortège"	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: "Hamburg" Symphonies esp. Wq. 182.2, 182.3
Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Concerto in D Minor	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Cello Concerto in A Major
*Bach, Johann Christian: Concerto for Harpsichord or Fortepiano in E-flat Major Op. 7 No. 5
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Flute/Keyboard Concerto in D minor, Wq. 22
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Don Juan, ou Le Festin de Pierre
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Sonata in G Minor
Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in C Major K. 159
Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in D Major K. 96 "Gigue"
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: "Württemberg" Sonatas Wq. 49
Bach, Johann Christian: Symphony Op. 6 No. 6*

For me today:










CPE Bach:	Flute Concerto in D Minor

Emmanuel Pahud, Kammerakadamie Potsdam, Trevor Pinnock










Gluck: Don Juan, ou Le Festin de Pierre

Chouchane Siranossian, Venice Baroque Orchestra, Andrea Marcon










CPE Bach: "Württemberg" Sonata Wq. 49/2

Marc-André Hamelin










JC Bach: Symphony Op. 6 No. 6

Academy of Ancient Music, Simon Standage


----------



## Mandryka

(Deleted as I was confusing the Wurttemberg sonatas with the Prussian sonatas!)


----------



## Chilham

Oops! I must have a different sonata there. Will get into it later as work beckons.

Thanks for the steer.

Edit: *This* suggests he has.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Oops! I must have a different sonata there. Will get into it later as work beckons.
> 
> Thanks for the steer.


No, I deleted the post, I was confusing CPE Bach sonata sets. Sorry.


----------



## Miranna




----------



## Mandryka

So I’ve been listening to CPEB’s Wurttemberg Sonatas, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard them before - I know the Kenner und Liebhaber and Prussian sets, but not these. And what struck me, this is just an informal impression you understand, is that the music seems very Haydn like. The same liking for stop start, the same penchant for the unexpected, sudden changes, and humour too. The music seems to me at least as interesting as Haydn’s, maybe more interesting than Scarlatti’s. 

The only recording of these Wurttemberg sonatas on a suitable instrument that I could find is by Mahan Esfahani, it would be interesting to hear a more sensitive, less tense, keyboard player do them. Maybe Miklos Spanyi has recorded them, I’ll check later. It would also be good to hear them on other keyboards - clavichord especially, but a piano (fortepiano) of the period, with colours, stops, could also be fun. Did Leonhardt record any of them with clavichord?


----------



## Mandryka

An yes, Spanyi recorded them on a clavichord, and first impressions is that this is much more sensitive, more poetic and less boisterous than Esfahani on harpsichord. Spanyi’s all the Wurttemberg Sonatas I need at the moment!


----------



## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> Tell us more about singspiel.


Alas, not many have been recorded yet, it seems. There are a few more by Benda and one by Reichardt, composed in 1793. 



Die Hochzeit auf der Alm, Schäfergedicht in 2 Aufzügen MH 107 (1768), which I posted in #434 is a singspiel, btw.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> I'm only aware of 'singspiel' as a style of opera used by Mozart.


One interesting thing to note about the traditional singspiels, which I posted, Die Hochzeit auf der Alm, Schäfergedicht in 2 Aufzügen MH 107 (1768) and Die Wahrheit der Natur, Ein Singspiel MH 118 (1769) is that they lack foreign influences (compared to Mozart's), for instance, they lack coloratura arias of any kind in their numbers. Instead the numbers are more Lied-like; consisting of repetitious (since they're basically poems with stanzas set to music), rustic melodies that are catchy enough to not bore the listener each time they come back.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Sonata in G Minor "Devil's Trill"

*Level 4*
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Magnificat in D Major	
Scarlatti, Domenico: Essercizi per gravicembalo K. 1-30 esp. K. 9 "Pastorale", K. 11, K. 20, K. 29, K. 30 "Cat's Fugue"

*Level 5*
Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in E Major K. 380 "Cortège"	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: "Hamburg" Symphonies esp. Wq. 182.2, 182.3
Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Concerto in D Minor	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Cello Concerto in A Major
Bach, Johann Christian: Concerto for Harpsichord or Fortepiano in E-flat Major Op. 7 No. 5
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Flute/Keyboard Concerto in D minor, Wq. 22
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Don Juan, ou Le Festin de Pierre
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Sonata in G Minor
Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in C Major K. 159
Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in D Major K. 96 "Gigue"
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: "Württemberg" Sonatas Wq. 49
Bach, Johann Christian: Symphony Op. 6 No. 6

*Level 6*
*Abel, Carl Friedrich: 27 Pieces for Viola da Gamba "The Drexel Manuscipt" WKO 186-212	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Symphonies Wq. 183	esp. No. 1, No. 2
Scarlatti, Domenico: Keyboard Sonata in A major, Kk. 208	
Bach, Johann Christian: Six Grand Overtures	
Scarlatti, Domenico: Stabat Mater	
Bach, Wilhelm Friedemann: 12 Keyboad Polonaises	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Flute Concerto in A Minor, Wq 166, H. 430*

For me today:










Abel: 27 Pieces for Viola de Gamba

Petr Wagner










CPE Bach:	Flute Concerto in A Minor

Emmanuel Pahud, Kammerakadamie Potsdam, Trevor Pinnock










CPE Bach:	Symphony Wq. 183 No. 1

RIAS Kammerchor, Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin, Hans-Christoph Rademann










JC Bach: Overture Op. 18 Nos. 1 & 4

Academy of Ancient Music, Simon Standage


----------



## hammeredklavier

""Klopstocks Morgengesang am Schöpfungsfeste, H 779, Wq 239"


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> *Level 1*
> No works
> 
> *Level 2*
> No works
> 
> *Level 3*
> Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Sonata in G Minor "Devil's Trill"
> 
> *Level 4*
> Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Magnificat in D Major
> Scarlatti, Domenico: Essercizi per gravicembalo K. 1-30 esp. K. 9 "Pastorale", K. 11, K. 20, K. 29, K. 30 "Cat's Fugue"
> 
> *Level 5*
> Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in E Major K. 380 "Cortège"
> Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: "Hamburg" Symphonies esp. Wq. 182.2, 182.3
> Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Concerto in D Minor
> Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Cello Concerto in A Major
> Bach, Johann Christian: Concerto for Harpsichord or Fortepiano in E-flat Major Op. 7 No. 5
> Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Flute/Keyboard Concerto in D minor, Wq. 22
> Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Don Juan, ou Le Festin de Pierre
> Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Sonata in G Minor
> Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in C Major K. 159
> Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in D Major K. 96 "Gigue"
> Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: "Württemberg" Sonatas Wq. 49
> Bach, Johann Christian: Symphony Op. 6 No. 6
> 
> *Level 6*
> *Abel, Carl Friedrich: 27 Pieces for Viola da Gamba "The Drexel Manuscipt" WKO 186-212
> Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Symphonies Wq. 183	esp. No. 1, No. 2
> Scarlatti, Domenico: Keyboard Sonata in A major, Kk. 208
> Bach, Johann Christian: Six Grand Overtures
> Scarlatti, Domenico: Stabat Mater
> Bach, Wilhelm Friedemann: 12 Keyboad Polonaises
> Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Flute Concerto in A Minor, Wq 166, H. 430*
> 
> For me today:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abel: 27 Pieces for Viola de Gamba
> 
> Petr Wagner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CPE Bach:	Flute Concerto in A Minor
> 
> Emmanuel Pahud, Kammerakadamie Potsdam, Trevor Pinnock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CPE Bach:	Symphony Wq. 183 No. 1
> 
> RIAS Kammerchor, Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin, Hans-Christoph Rademann
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JC Bach: Overture Op. 18 Nos. 1 & 4
> 
> Academy of Ancient Music, Simon Standage


WF Bach's Polonaises are well worth hearing. There's a recording by Robert Hill on Naxos, he uses a fabulous piano for them, his notes to the recording, which used to be available on the Naxos site, are inspiring. Just looking at Spotify, there are a lot of recordings - in fact I shouldn't be surprised given the quality of the music, it's good that they are finally getting the status they merit.


----------



## Chilham

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Sonata in G Minor "Devil's Trill"

*Level 4*
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Magnificat in D Major	
Scarlatti, Domenico: Essercizi per gravicembalo K. 1-30 esp. K. 9 "Pastorale", K. 11, K. 20, K. 29, K. 30 "Cat's Fugue"

*Level 5*
Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in E Major K. 380 "Cortège"	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: "Hamburg" Symphonies esp. Wq. 182.2, 182.3
Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Concerto in D Minor	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Cello Concerto in A Major
Bach, Johann Christian: Concerto for Harpsichord or Fortepiano in E-flat Major Op. 7 No. 5
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Flute/Keyboard Concerto in D minor, Wq. 22
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Don Juan, ou Le Festin de Pierre
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Sonata in G Minor
Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in C Major K. 159
Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in D Major K. 96 "Gigue"
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: "Württemberg" Sonatas Wq. 49
Bach, Johann Christian: Symphony Op. 6 No. 6

*Level 6*
Abel, Carl Friedrich: 27 Pieces for Viola da Gamba "The Drexel Manuscipt" WKO 186-212	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Symphonies Wq. 183	esp. No. 1, No. 2
Scarlatti, Domenico: Keyboard Sonata in A major, Kk. 208	
Bach, Johann Christian: Six Grand Overtures	
Scarlatti, Domenico: Stabat Mater	
Bach, Wilhelm Friedemann: 12 Keyboad Polonaises	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Flute Concerto in A Minor, Wq 166, H. 430
*Scarlatti, Dominico: Sonata K. 141
Scarlatti, Dominico: Sonata K. 87
Abel, Carl Friedrich : Symphony No. 3 in D Major Op. 7 No. 3
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Die Israeliten in der Wüste 
Stamitz, Johann: Symphony in E-flat major Op. 11 No. 3*



Mandryka said:


> WF Bach's Polonaises are well worth hearing. There's a recording by Robert Hill on Naxos, he uses a fabulous piano for them, his notes to the recording, which used to be available on the Naxos site, are inspiring. Just looking at Spotify, there are a lot of recordings - in fact I shouldn't be surprised given the quality of the music, it's good that they are finally getting the status they merit.


Well, I've got this lined-up for today:










WF Bach: 12 Keyboad Polonaises

Charles Lavaud


----------



## Mandryka

I knew you’d choose that one!


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> I knew you'd choose that one!


:lol: ..................


----------



## Chilham

Crazy-busy day tomorrow so posting up the rest of this weeks recommended works this evening.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Sonata in G Minor "Devil's Trill"

*Level 4*
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Magnificat in D Major	
Scarlatti, Domenico: Essercizi per gravicembalo K. 1-30 esp. K. 9 "Pastorale", K. 11, K. 20, K. 29, K. 30 "Cat's Fugue"

*Level 5*
Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in E Major K. 380 "Cortège"	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: "Hamburg" Symphonies esp. Wq. 182.2, 182.3
Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Concerto in D Minor	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Cello Concerto in A Major
Bach, Johann Christian: Concerto for Harpsichord or Fortepiano in E-flat Major Op. 7 No. 5
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Flute/Keyboard Concerto in D minor, Wq. 22
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Don Juan, ou Le Festin de Pierre
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Sonata in G Minor
Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in C Major K. 159
Scarlatti, Domenico: Sonata in D Major K. 96 "Gigue"
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: "Württemberg" Sonatas Wq. 49
Bach, Johann Christian: Symphony Op. 6 No. 6

*Level 6*
Abel, Carl Friedrich: 27 Pieces for Viola da Gamba "The Drexel Manuscipt" WKO 186-212	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Symphonies Wq. 183	esp. No. 1, No. 2
Scarlatti, Domenico: Keyboard Sonata in A major, Kk. 208	
Bach, Johann Christian: Six Grand Overtures	
Scarlatti, Domenico: Stabat Mater	
Bach, Wilhelm Friedemann: 12 Keyboad Polonaises	
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Flute Concerto in A Minor, Wq 166, H. 430
Scarlatti, Dominico: Sonata K. 141
Scarlatti, Dominico: Sonata K. 87
Abel, Carl Friedrich : Symphony No. 3 in D Major Op. 7 No. 3
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel: Die Israeliten in der Wüste 
Stamitz, Johann: Symphony in E-flat major Op. 11 No. 3

*Level 7*
*Graun, Christoph: Der Tod Jesu
Bach, Wilhelm Friedemann: Symphony in F Major
Bach, Johann Christian: Concerto for Harpsichord or Fortepiano Op. 1, Op. 13
Abel, Carl Friedrich: Flute Concertos Op. 6, Op. 11*

Honourable mentions for those composers who had recommended works here that don't appear in our Talk Classical Community's Favourite and Most Highly Recommend Works, showing their only or top recommended work: 
*Quantz, Johann Joachim*: Flute Concerto in D Major
*Hasse, Johann*: Antonio e Cleopatra
*Sammartini, Giovanni Battista*: Magnificat in B-flat Major
*Galuppi, Baldassare*: L'Oracolo del Vaticano

I have thoroughly enjoyed my listening this week. It's been a real surprise. No single work has jumped out but they have all met a very high standard to my ear, especially the Standage/Academy of Ancient Music JC Bach works:










Squeezing this in:










WF Bach: Symphony in F Major

Il Giardino Armonico, Giovanni Antonini

On to our first Opera Week from Saturday. We'll be checking in with composers born 1600-1799 who are (almost) exclusively known for opera. I recognise that it's an incongruous, non-homogenous grouping but without doing it, we'll end up with a log-jam later in the year. We'll have the opportunity to hear works from Arne, Auber, Boieldieu, Cavalli, Cimarosa, Donizetti, Gluck, Mercadante, Meyerbeer, Rossini, and Vinci, although maybe not from all given the time. The most recommended work of the week? I'll tell you on Saturday.


----------



## new but obsessed

As someone who discovered a passion of classical music through opera, I'm very excited for next week!


----------



## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> Tell us more about singspiel.


Der Baßgeiger zu Wörgl




Ach lieder, ich bin eizig schuld


----------



## Miranna




----------



## Chilham

hammeredklavier said:


> Der Baßgeiger zu Wörgl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ach lieder, ich bin eizig schuld


I'm beginning to think that your suggestion of telling us all about singspiel was just a rouse to post Michael Haydn YouTube links a month before we come to consider his music. I know you are big fan of Haydn Jnr. but politely request that you save your enthusiasm until we come to the week which includes composers born in 1737. Whilst not many of his works are recommended, it will be an interesting discussion I'm sure.


----------



## Chilham

Miranna said:


>


We spent a week with Handel some time ago.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> politely request that you save your enthusiasm until we come to the week which includes composers born in 1737.


Sorry about that; I sort of misunderstood your posts (_"Tell us more about singspiel"_) and thought that you wanted us to discuss the stuff regardless of the "timeline". I also know Benda's 'Ariadne auf Naxos' and 'Medea', but it's just that I haven't found any of the individual numbers strikingly memorable (maybe not yet). Maybe we should have postponed the whole thing about singspiels to the next weeks, cause it's more a thing the later decades.



Chilham said:


> Bach, Johann Christian


Btw, J.C. Bach was born in 1735, after F.J. Haydn (1732). Because of this, I sort of assumed you "allowed" us post about composers born in the 1730s also.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Concerto in D Minor, Wq. 22, H. 425: I. Allegro




Concerto in E Minor, Wq. 15, H. 418: III. Vivace




Concerto in G Major, Wq. 34, H. 444: I. Allegro di molto




Concerto in G Major, Wq. 4, H. 406: II. Adagio




Concerto in C Minor, Wq. 37, H. 448: II. Andante ed arioso


----------



## Chilham

hammeredklavier said:


> ... Because of this, I sort of assumed you "allowed" us post about composers born in the 1730s also.


I was clear on which music period we were covering this week. You even quoted me.

16-22 April will be Michael Haydn week.


----------



## Chilham

So, our first opera week! Composers born 1600-1799 who are known almost exclusively for opera: Arne, Auber, Boieldieu, Cavalli, Cimarosa, Donizetti, Gluck, Mercadante, Meyerbeer, Rossini, and Vinci.

The most recommended work:

*Level 1*
*Rossini, Gioachino: Il Barbiere di Siviglia esp. Overture, Largo al Factotum, Una Voce Poco Fa*

My current approach to opera is that I have some of the most highly recommended on dvd. For others I have the full opera on cd. There are some where I have selected 30-40 minutes of highlights, and occasionally, if I've liked them, gone back to fill-out the full opera (one example coming towards the end of the week). For many, I simply have the overture and one or two arias.

I should add that I'm unusually sensitive to, 'hiss' and distortion on recordings so often find older live recordings difficult to listen to. Since many of the great opera performances seem to be more than 50-years old, I find myself preferring more modern recordings, rather than the undoubted greats of the past. For today, I have the full opera. I've only listened to the overture previously and found the 'hiss' frustrating, but will persevere:










Rossini: Il Barbiere di Siviglia 'The Barber of Seville'

Vittorio Gui, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, Harold Williams, John Rhys Evans, Laura Sarti, Victoria de los Angeles, Duncan Robertson, Luigi Alva, Glyndebourne Festival Chorus


----------



## hammeredklavier

isn't it kute? - L'Italiana in Algeri


----------



## pianozach

Chilham said:


> I was clear on which music period we were covering this week. You even quoted me.
> 
> 16-22 April will be Michael Haydn week.


Actively managing a thread tasks your threshold for patience. *People do not follow instructions, even if they did read them in the first place*.

Frankly, I don't really understand your format in detail, but it doesn't really matter. There are plenty of things I don't understand (like making a quiche, bitcoin, why hoverboards don't hover, or how to call the cable company without losing it), and it's not really a problem. Overall I get your concept, and how you're traveling chronologically, so that's good enough for me.

When the pandemic first hit, and all theatre was cancelled, I decided to make a virtual video. I recruited volunteers to sing, and gave out very specific instructions, most of which were ignored. One volunteer didn't understand the concept of singing along with the backing track on headphones, so her contribution was unusable, as she sang our song to the tempo of her own inner drummer.

Here: Enjoy this short little operatic excerpt from 1879.

My wife and I are two of the people here


----------



## new but obsessed

I'm no expert on opera recordings. But for Barber of Seville I have enjoyed the big time arias from Maria Callas, Bartoli, and the version with Domingo/Kathleen Battle/C. Abbado. I've also found some mesmerizing videos of Garanca singing Una voce poco fa.

I haven't listened to a recording all the way through yet, though. So my main exposure to this one was a free Met Stream during the first few months of COVID. It was a very fun production with Joyce DiDonato and Juan Diego Florez. (It was before I knew enough about opera to know who those people were. But it was charming and entertaining nonetheless). 

I've only seen Barber and Cenerentola, but I really love Rossini. For the catchy, energetic music and his masterful grasp of comedy. I find his work to be seriously funny.


----------



## Chilham

Continuing composers born 1600-1799 who are known almost exclusively for opera: Arne, Auber, Boieldieu, Cavalli, Cimarosa, Donizetti, Gluck, Mercadante, Meyerbeer, Rossini, and Vinci.

Late on the draw today!

*Level 1*
Rossini, Gioachino: Il Barbiere di Siviglia esp. Overture, Largo al Factotum, Una Voce Poco Fa

*Level 2*
*Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Orfeo ed Euridice*










Gluck: Orfeo ed Euridice

Diego Fasolis, Philippe Jaroussky, Amanda Forsythe, Emöke Baráth, I Barocchisti

*Level 3*
*Rossini, Gioachino: Guillaume Tell Overture*










Rossini: William Tell Overture

Michele Mariotti, Orchestra del Teatro Comunale di Bologna


----------



## Mandryka

hammeredklavier said:


> isn't it kute? - L'Italiana in Algeri


Greatly helped by the production, but it does make me want to start going to Covent Garden again. The scene prompted me to listen to _Pizzica, pizzica_ at the end of Act 3 of Falstaff.


----------



## new but obsessed

In case folks have HBO, the Looney Tunes archives are on there, including the wonderful The Rabbit of Seville. I don't know if the William Tell Overture features in any other Looney Tunes cartoons.

Edit: I ended up listening to the 1969/1970 Decca recording of Orfeo by Solti, M. Horne, Covent Garden. A nice recording, clean (no hiss). Enjoying it very much. 

I just realized that it seems to be a completely female cast (for the leads). I don't know the full history of this opera and which orchestration this one is. From what I can figure, it was originally for castrati then was later re-done with either a tenor or a mezzo in the lead role. I've found a listing for another recording with Juan Diego Florez which corroborates that lower register re-do. I'd be curious to learn from the wise ones here about some of that history.

My only exposure to this story, aside from the operas we've covered on this journey, are the poem in Ovid's Metamorphoses (which I barely remember), and the LA Opera production Aucoin's Eurydice opera, which was among the last normal things I got to do before covid. 

Glad to find yet another interesting take on it. (Not including the film "retellings" listed on Wikipedia including Moulin Rouge, huh?, and the awesome Portrait of a Lady on Fire, where I didn't catch the reference at the time).


----------



## Chilham

Continuing composers born 1600-1799 who are known almost exclusively for opera: Arne, Auber, Boieldieu, Cavalli, Cimarosa, Donizetti, Gluck, Mercadante, Meyerbeer, Rossini, and Vinci.

Highlights for me today for the first three operas, and the overture and a couple of arias from the fourth. I blanch a little at playing Gergiev but it's what I have.

*Level 1*
Rossini, Gioachino: Il Barbiere di Siviglia esp. Overture, Largo al Factotum, Una Voce Poco Fa

*Level 2*
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Orfeo ed Euridice

*Level 3*
Rossini, Gioachino: Guillaume Tell Overture

*Level 4*
*Donizetti, Gaetano: Lucia di Lammermoor*










Natalie Dessay, Valery Gergiev, Vladislav Sulimsky, Piotr Beczala, Ilya Bannik, Mariinsky Orchestra, Mariinsky Chorus

*Donizetti, Gaetano: L'Elisir d'Amore esp. Act 2: "Una furtiva lagrima...Eccola!"*










John Pritchard, Plácido Domingo, Geraint Evans, Ingvar Wixell, Lillian Watson, Ileana Cotrubas, Robin Stapleton, Chorus of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden & Orchestra of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden

*Rossini, Gioachino: La Cenerentola*










Luigi Alva, Claudio Abbado, London Symphony Orchestra, Teresa Berganza, Margherita Guglielmi, Laura Zannini, Renato Capecchi, Paolo Montarsolo, Scottish Opera Chorus, Arthur Oldham

*Rossini, Gioachino: L'Italiana in Algeri*










Michele Mariotti, Orchestra del Teatro Comunale di Bologna










Marie-Nicole Lemieux, Choeur de l'Opéra national de Montpellier Occitanie, Orchestre national de Montpellier Occitanie, Enrique Mazzola

Where's the love for Donizetti? Doesn't even have a thread linked in the Composer Guestbook.


----------



## Kreisler jr

I always found Gluck's Orpheus a bit boring and the two Iphigenie operas, especially Iphigenie en Tauride more impressive and dramatic. I have not a lot of love for Donizetti (never really explored his serious operas) but L'elisir d'amore is very entertaining, especially on stage. Again, I don't care enough for many operas without the stage experience.


----------



## new but obsessed

I'm pleasantly surprised that La Cenerentola was on the same level as Lucia. I had been under the impression that it was a relatively minor work of the main operatic repertoire, and less performed than Lucia. 

I don't know if I am in love with any recordings of La Cenerentola. But seeing it live was such a treat. It is such a magnificently funny work, a lot of which was visual/acted gags. Still, Non piu mesta is such a treat and a fantastic closer. I was singing that constantly for a month or two afterwards! It's further made fun by how many drastically different wonderful interpretations there are of that aria and character on recording and on Youtube.

I've unfortunately not seen any Donizetti. But I'm itching to.


----------



## Kreisler jr

L'elisir, Lucia and a few others are so popular that there must be some decent video productions of them.


----------



## new but obsessed

I found a listing of "highlight tracks" for Lucia and I'm adding bits and pieces from different recordings. Getting a nice mix of Pavarotti, Callas, Damrau, Sutherland, Sills, Hvorostovsky.

Does Lucia not have a major overture?

I don't know if I'll go as deep into L'elisir. But I do know and love Una furtiva lagrima.

Edit: a listing of those "highlights" https://www.jiosaavn.com/album/the-best-of-lucia-de-lammermoor-the-opera-master-series/JZ-5WKKr,Ig_


----------



## Chilham

Kreisler jr said:


> I always found Gluck's Orpheus a bit boring and the two Iphigenie operas, especially Iphigenie en Tauride more impressive and dramatic....


Funny you should say that! Continuing composers born 1600-1799 who are known almost exclusively for opera: Arne, Auber, Boieldieu, Cavalli, Cimarosa, Donizetti, Gluck, Mercadante, Meyerbeer, Rossini, and Vinci.

More highlights for me today, diping into a couple of new-to-me composers.

*Level 1*
Rossini, Gioachino: Il Barbiere di Siviglia esp. Overture, Largo al Factotum, Una Voce Poco Fa

*Level 2*
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Orfeo ed Euridice

*Level 3*
Rossini, Gioachino: Guillaume Tell Overture

*Level 4*
Donizetti, Gaetano: Lucia di Lammermoor
Donizetti, Gaetano: L'Elisir d'Amore esp. Act 2: "Una furtiva lagrima...Eccola!"
Rossini, Gioachino: La Cenerentola
Rossini, Gioachino: L'Italiana in Algeri
*Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Iphigenie en Tauride*










Choeur des Musiciens du Louvre-Grenoble, Mireille Delunsch, Marc Minkowski, Les Musiciens du Louvre

*Rossini, Gioachino: The Thieving Magpie Overture
Donizetti, Gaetano: Don Pasquale*










Mario Basiola, Ettore Gracis, Orchestra del Maggio Musicale Fiorentino, Alfredo Mariotti, Anna Maccianti, Ugo Benelli

*Level 5*
*Meyerbeer, Giacomo: Les Huguenots*










New Zealand Symphony Orchestra & Darrell Ang










Choeurs de l'Opéra National de Lyon, Diana Damrau, Emmanuel Villaume, Joanna Curelaru Kata, Orchestre de l'Opéra National de Lyon, Pascale Obrecht, Pei min Yu

*Cimarosa, Domenico: Il Matrimonio Segreto
Donizetti, Gaetano: La Fille du Régiment*










Arturo Basile & Orchestra Philharmonica del Teatro Comunale Giuseppe Verdi Trieste

*Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Alceste	
Auber, Daniel: Fra Diavolo esp. Overture*


----------



## Chilham

Continuing composers born 1600-1799 who are known almost exclusively for opera: Arne, Auber, Boieldieu, Cavalli, Cimarosa, Donizetti, Gluck, Mercadante, Meyerbeer, Rossini, and Vinci.

*Level 1*
Rossini, Gioachino: Il Barbiere di Siviglia esp. Overture, Largo al Factotum, Una Voce Poco Fa

*Level 2*
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Orfeo ed Euridice

*Level 3*
Rossini, Gioachino: Guillaume Tell Overture

*Level 4*
Donizetti, Gaetano: Lucia di Lammermoor
Donizetti, Gaetano: L'Elisir d'Amore esp. Act 2: "Una furtiva lagrima...Eccola!"
Rossini, Gioachino: La Cenerentola
Rossini, Gioachino: L'Italiana in Algeri
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Iphigenie en Tauride
Rossini, Gioachino: The Thieving Magpie Overture
Donizetti, Gaetano: Don Pasquale

*Level 5*
Meyerbeer, Giacomo: Les Huguenots
Cimarosa, Domenico: Il Matrimonio Segreto
Donizetti, Gaetano: La Fille du Régiment
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Alceste	
Auber, Daniel: Fra Diavolo esp. Overture

*Level 6*
*Meyerbeer, Giacomo: Robert le Diable
Meyerbeer, Giacomo: L'Africane
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Iphigénie en Aulide
Boieldieu, François-Adrien: La Dame Blanche
Cavalli, Francesco: Il Giasone
Cavalli, Francesco: La Calisto
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Paride ed Elena
Gossec, François Joseph: Le Tripmphe de la Republique
Rossini, Giacomo: Semiramide
Auber, Daniel: La Muette de Portici*

No listening for me today as there's a family funeral I have to attend.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Meyerbeer Smith said:


> Vinci wrote _Artaserse_ and _Catone in Utica_. _Artaserse_ is a countertenor showcase: five of the world's best, and one tenor. Here's the hit aria, sung by Argentinian countertenor Franco Fagioli - nearly 1.8 million views:


kute...........


----------



## Chilham

Finishing composers born 1600-1799 who are known almost exclusively for opera: Arne, Auber, Boieldieu, Cavalli, Cimarosa, Donizetti, Gluck, Mercadante, Meyerbeer, Rossini, and Vinci.

*Level 1*
Rossini, Gioachino: Il Barbiere di Siviglia esp. Overture, Largo al Factotum, Una Voce Poco Fa

*Level 2*
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Orfeo ed Euridice

*Level 3*
Rossini, Gioachino: Guillaume Tell Overture

*Level 4*
Donizetti, Gaetano: Lucia di Lammermoor
Donizetti, Gaetano: L'Elisir d'Amore esp. Act 2: "Una furtiva lagrima...Eccola!"
Rossini, Gioachino: La Cenerentola
Rossini, Gioachino: L'Italiana in Algeri
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Iphigenie en Tauride
Rossini, Gioachino: The Thieving Magpie Overture
Donizetti, Gaetano: Don Pasquale

*Level 5*
Meyerbeer, Giacomo: Les Huguenots
Cimarosa, Domenico: Il Matrimonio Segreto
Donizetti, Gaetano: La Fille du Régiment
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Alceste	
Auber, Daniel: Fra Diavolo esp. Overture

*Level 6*
Meyerbeer, Giacomo: Robert le Diable
Meyerbeer, Giacomo: L'Africane
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Iphigénie en Aulide
Boieldieu, François-Adrien: La Dame Blanche
Cavalli, Francesco: Il Giasone
Cavalli, Francesco: La Calisto
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Paride ed Elena
Gossec, François Joseph: Le Tripmphe de la Republique
Rossini, Giacomo: Semiramide
Auber, Daniel: La Muette de Portici

*Level 7*
*Arne, Thomas: Artaxerxes	
Blow, John: Venus and Adonis
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Armide	
Vinci, Leonardo: Artaserse	
Arne, Thomas: Alfred	Rule inc. Britannia
Donizetti, Gaetano: Anna Bolena	
Donizetti, Gaetano: Maria Stuarda*

Honourable mentions for those composers who had recommended works here that don't appear in our Talk Classical Community's Favourite and Most Highly Recommend Works, showing their only or top recommended work: 
Campra, André: Les Fêtes Vénitiennes
Fux, Johann Joseph: Orfeo ed Euridice
Bononcini, Giovanni: Il Trionto di Camilla
Caldara, Antonio: La Clemenza di Tito
Greber, Jakob: Gli Amori d'Ergasto
Galuppi. Baldassare: La Clemenza di Tito
Goldoni, Carlo: Il Ventaglio (Opera)
Benda, Georg: Ariadne auf Naxos
Beaumarchais, Peirre-Augustin: Tarare
Grétry, André: Richard Coeur-de-Lion
Gaveaux, Pierre: Léonore; ou, L'Amour Conjugal
Bishop, Henry: Clari, The Maid of Milan
Mercadente, Saverio: Orazi e Curiazi

My listening yesterday was this delightful work by Mercadante. I don't understand why it's not more widely known or recommended.










Mercadante: Orazi e Curiazi

Anthony Michaels-Moore, Marcus Jerome, Alastair Miles, David Parry, Philharmonia Orchestra, Nelly Miricioiu, Jennifer Rhys-Davies, Paul Nilon

Based on the suggestions made by members at the beginning of this thread, I've reduced the amount of time I'll spend in the, "Classical" era from three months to two. That said, I'm taking a break for a short while. I'm not certain the thread is achieving its aims or being of value. If you want to continue to follow along, here's what I have scheduled for the next quarter:
Week 14 - Early Joseph Haydn & Pergolesi
Week 15 - Late Joseph Haydn
Week 16 - Early Mozart, Dittersdorf & Michael Haydn
Week 17 - Mid-Mozart & Boccherini
Week 18 - Late Mozart & Clementi
Week 19 - Early Beethoven & Cherubini
Week 20 - Mid-Beethven, Paganini & Hummel
Week 21 - Late Beethoven & Weber
Week 22 - Schubert & Berwald
Week 23 - Berlioz & Mendelssohn
Week 24 - Chopin & Liszt
Week 25 - Schumann
Week 26 - Wagner, Verdi, Bellini et al. (Opera Week 2)

Happy listening.


----------



## Mandryka

You've confused voracity and veracity.


----------



## new but obsessed

Bummer! Right in the period I was most interested in learning about.

Well, enjoy your break!


----------



## Chilham

It's been suggested to me that perhaps a weekly post with the full listing, rather than daily, is the way forward. Let's try.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Cello Concerto No. 1 in C major










*Level 4 *
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 45 "Farewell"










Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 20 "Sun" No. 2










Pergolesi, Giovanni Battista: Stabat Mater
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 33 "Russian" No. 2
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 20 "Sun" No. 3 & 4
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 20 "Sun" No. 5
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 49 "La Passione"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 44 "Trauersymphonie"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 48 "Maria Theresia"
Pergolesi, Giovanni Battista: La Serva Padrona

*Level 5*
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Piano Concerto No. 11
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Piano Sonata No. 31 in A-flat Major Hob. XVI/46










Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 6 "Le Matin"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 46
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 39 "Tempesta di Mare"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 33 "Russian" No. 1, 3 "The Bird", 4, 5 "How Do You Do?, 6
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 47 "Palindrome"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Piano Sonata No. 33 H. 20 in C Minor
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 7 "Le Midi"
Boyce, William: Symphonies (8) Op. 2 esp. Symphony No. 4










*Level 6*
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 20 "Sun" No. 1
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 26 "Lamentatione"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 8 "Le Soir"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 9 
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 73 "La Chasse"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 22 "The Philiosopher"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 43
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 52
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 60 "Il Distratto"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 41

*Level 7 *
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 31 "Hornsignal"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 55 "Schoolmaster"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 53 "Imperial"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 64 "Tempora Mutantur"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Piano Trios No. 5
Seixas, Jose Antonio Carlos de: 11 Sonatas
Arne, Thomas: Trio Sonatas Op. 3
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 57
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Stabat Mater
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 11

Honourable mentions for those composers who had recommended works here that don't appear in our Talk Classical Community's Favourite and Most Highly Recommend Works, showing their only or top recommended work:
Stanley, John: Six Concertos in Seven Parts Op. 2
Arne, Thomas: Six Concertos for Organ and Orchestra
Rebel, François: Pyrame et Thisbé
Martini, Giovanni Battista: Harpsichord Sonata No. 3
Duni, Egidio: Le Peintre Amoureux de son Modèle
Corrette, Michel: 6 Organ Concertos Op. 26
Richter, Franz Xaver: 6 Grandes Simphonies (à 4)
Mondonville, Jean-Joseph Cassanée: Les Sons Harmoniques
Hebdon, John	6 Concertos Op. 2a
Jommell, Niccolò: Didone Abbandonata
d'Alessandro, Gennaro: Il Coro delle Muse
Duval, Mlle: Les Génies
Mozart, Leopold: Toy Symphony
Pinottini, Maria Teresa Agnesi: Ciro in Armenia
Anseume, Louis: Le Peintre Amoureux de Son Modèle


----------



## new but obsessed

I couldn't find the Isserlis recording of Cello Concerto 1. But I did find a 1967 EMI recording by Jacqueline du Pré with Daniel Barenboim. I'm enjoying it very much. I think it's the first time I've listened to a recording of hers, though of course I was well aware of her reputation.


----------



## Mandryka

The Martini sonata is worth hearing, and Seixas is always pleasant, though I’m not sure which sonatas are being referred to.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Thomas Arne's galant secular cantatas are beguiling. They show Arne's mastery in matters of orchestration, and his concern for the co-ordination of instrumental timbres with poetic ideas. Each cantata is scored differently, with the scoring often reflecting specific textual images.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> The Martini sonata is worth hearing, and Seixas is always pleasant, though I'm not sure which sonatas are being referred to.


25 Sonatas para instrumentos de tecla Nos. 7 & 14
80 Sonatas para Instrumentos de Tecla Nos. 12, 24, 27, 32, 34, 47, 50, 57 & 78


----------



## Mandryka

I listened to José Carlos Araujo play a handful of these - 12 and 32 and 7 and 14. They seem to be very tame indeed. Maybe I’m not listening sensitively. Maybe Seixas is a less exciting composer than I had thought. Maybe this selection reflections someone’s taste rather than a style which is representative of all his music. Maybe Araujo doesn’t do them justice.


----------



## Kreisler jr

Not sure I have heard more than a piece or two by Seixas in a mixed recital. The composer that deserves some attention is Padre Soler some of whose sonatas are really wonderful (Fandango is fun although maybe not by him, there is one fandango like sonata but I don't remember the number) and the chamber music (early classical keyboard trios/quartets) quite nice.

Now, I am great Haydn fan but this looks like a confusing mess and way too many pieces to digest for a decent impression of early Haydn. I'd rather recommend on fewer pieces, for early-middly (until mid-late 1770s)

symphonies: 6 (7,8), 21 or 22, 26, 31, 44-49, 54, 60, 63, 70, 73 (last 3 probably too late but mentioned further above)
quartets: op.1/3 (or 1/1, just one of the early divertimenti to get the difference to the later works), 9/4, 17/5 or 6, 20/2-4, (33/1+3)
piano sonatas: c minor and A flat major (agrees with above)
cello concerto #1


----------



## hammeredklavier

cello concerto No.1


----------



## Chilham

Kreisler jr said:


> Not sure I have heard more than a piece or two by Seixas in a mixed recital. The composer that deserves some attention is Padre Soler some of whose sonatas are really wonderful (Fandango is fun although maybe not by him, there is one fandango like sonata but I don't remember the number) and the chamber music (early classical keyboard trios/quartets) quite nice.
> 
> Now, I am great Haydn fan but this looks like a confusing mess and way too many pieces to digest for a decent impression of early Haydn. I'd rather recommend on fewer pieces, for early-middly (until mid-late 1770s)
> 
> symphonies: 6 (7,8), 21 or 22, 26, 31, 44-49, 54, 60, 63, 70, 73 (last 3 probably too late but mentioned further above)
> quartets: op.1/3 (or 1/1, just one of the early divertimenti to get the difference to the later works), 9/4, 17/5 or 6, 20/2-4, (33/1+3)
> piano sonatas: c minor and A flat major (agrees with above)
> cello concerto #1


Well, now I'm confused. You say it's way too many pieces yet I've outlined 35 recommendations, and you recommend 29. Hardly a major difference. There's no requirement to listen to them all in any case. Either way, I'm pleased we agree on so many pieces.


----------



## new but obsessed

@ Kreisler jr

The way I think about this exercise, as a near-complete novice, is to stick to the upper-tier recs that are most common to TC and other established recommenders. Basically levels 1-3 or even 4. Levels 5-onwards I think of as the "deep cuts" or "deeper dive", which maybe I'll come back to at a future date when I have a much better understanding of classical music.

Chillam has admirably sorted through a huge set of data points on TC and around the web to manually curate for us a listing of broadly and highly regarded works across the eras in a Metacritic or RottenTomatoes style ranking. As a data nerd, I find it very interesting!


----------



## marlow

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Thomas Arne's galant secular cantatas are beguiling. They show Arne's mastery in matters of orchestration, and his concern for the co-ordination of instrumental timbres with poetic ideas. Each cantata is scored differently, with the scoring often reflecting specific textual images.


Love that cantata!

Arne certainly wasn't one of the great masters but he could certainly write a tune!


----------



## marlow

Chilham said:


> Well, now I'm confused. You say it's way too many pieces yet I've outlined 35 recommendations, and you recommend 29. Hardly a major difference. There's no requirement to listen to them all in any case. Either way, I'm pleased we agree on so many pieces.


I don't know how much time other guys have got on their hands but frankly I haven't got time for this lot! Maybe one or two works. I'm trying to get a new book finished at the moment!


----------



## Chilham

marlow said:


> I don't know how much time other guys have got on their hands but frankly I haven't got time for this lot! Maybe one or two works. I'm trying to get a new book finished at the moment!


It helps then that the results are tiered. Only have time for a few pieces? Not a problem, as NBO says, just stay with the top few levels. I'm listening to Levels 1-5 plus a few from the bottom tiers.

Ps. Good luck with the book.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Le Retour de Tobie - Choeur Svanisce in un momento


----------



## Mandryka

hammeredklavier said:


> Le Retour de Tobie - Choeur Svanisce in un momento


Keep on posting! Very good.


----------



## Chilham

Late-Haydn and his contemporaries born 1725-1732.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 104 "London"










Haydn, Franz Joseph: Die Schöpfung "The Creation"










*Level 3* 
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 76 "Erdödy" esp. No. 3










Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 94 in G major "Surprise"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Trumpet Concerto in E flat major 
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 101 "The Clock"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 103 "Drumroll"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Mass No. 11 "Missa in Angustiis", "Lord Nelson Mass"










Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 102	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 82 "The Bear"










Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 100 "Military"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 85 "La Reine"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 86

*Level 4*
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 83 "The Hen"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 99	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 95	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 84 "In Nomine Domini"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 87	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 98	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 96 "Miracle"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 97	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Piano Sonata No. 62 H. 52 in E-flat	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 93
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Die Jahreszeiten "The Seasons"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Cello Concerto No. 2 in D major
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 92 "Oxford"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Mass No. 10 Missa in tempore belli "Paukenmesse"

*Level 5*
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 88	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 64 "Tost III"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Mass No. 12 "Theresienmesse"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: The Seven Last Words Of Christ On The Cross	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Piano Sonata No. 60 H. 50 in C Major	
Soler, Antonio: Fandango

*Level 6*
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 76	No. 6
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 77 "Lobkowitz"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 74 "Apponyi"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 71 "Apponyi" 
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Harmoniemesse	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Variations in F Minor	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 50 "Prussian"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Piano Trio No. 43 in C Major "Bartolozzi"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 91	
Soler, Antonio: Sonatas for Harpsichord esp. SR. 15, 19, 56, 84, 88, 90, 117
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Sinfonia Concertante

*Level 7*
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Piano Trio No. 39 "Gypsy"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Piano Trio No. 44 "Bartolozzi"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Piano Trio No. 45 "Bartolozzi"	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 90	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 80	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 89	
Traetta, Tommaso: Antigona
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 81	
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Te Deum

Honourable mentions:
Brioschi, Antonio: XII Sonate
Phildor, François-André Danican: Emelinde
Goldberg, Johann Gottlieb: Concertos in D Minor and E-flat Major
Hiller, Johann Adam: Die Jagd
Piccinni, Niccoló: Didone Abbandonata
Sarti, Giuseppe: Fra I Due Litiganti il Terzo Gode
Sacchini, Antonio: Andromaca
Cannabich, Christian: Symphonies
de Majo, Gian Francesco: Ifgenia in Tauride

Early Mozart, Michael Haydn, Dittersdorf and others to come next week.


----------



## Mandryka

Haydn 88 is good.

Haydn op 50 is possibly a high point - you have to find sympathetic performances and in my opinion the set is uneven, but still it is impressive music. I always hear it as Haydn’s response to Mozart, but I’m not sure how justifiable that is.


It may be worth trying the Piccinni. He certainly wrote pleasant lute music.


----------



## marlow

If you only have one work of Hayden's to listen to, listen to the creation:


----------



## hammeredklavier

Mandryka said:


> I always hear it as Haydn's response to Mozart, but I'm not sure how justifiable that is.


Op.50 No.1/ii: it is most likely just a coincidence, but this slow movement 



 reminds me of Mozart K.219/iii melodically 



There's also a part in one of the works from the Op.50 set that reminds me of the Allegro from Mozart K.379, but I can't recall which work and which part it is exactly.
Anyway, Op.50 No.1 strikes me as the most memorable in the set, melodically, in all its movements.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Theresienmesse - Gloria




 (~8:00)
The elegant simplicity of the 'Gratias agimus tibi' and the subsequent, stormy "Qui tollis".
To me, vocal Haydn never gets more inspired than this.

symphony No.80 in D minor / ii : 



(This one and 102th/ii are to me the most inspired slow movements in the late symphonies)


----------



## hammeredklavier

Orlando Paladino
contains some sturm-und-drang moments, as well as gestures or expressions that anticipate the later works.
Ex)

"Ah se dire io vi potessi" 



string quartet in D, Op.76 No.5 / ii 




"Quel tuo visetto amabile" 



symphony No.100 in G / ii


----------



## hammeredklavier

Bald wird ihn die himmlische Jugend empfangen





Op.76 No.6 Fantasia


----------



## new but obsessed

Glad this forum is back up and running. I was concerned there for a bit! Fortunately, I got an email transcript of this week's recommendations, so I've happily enjoyed the Surprise symphony, the string quartets, and The Creation (not usually my cup of tea, but this was excellent).

Next up: Symphonies 104, 85, and the Trumpet Concerto!

Edit: I'm in love with the 104th. Firing it up again! So much verve!


----------



## Chilham

What an enjoyable couple of weeks with Joseph Haydn. I liked the Giovanni Antonini/Il Gardinio Armonico recordings very much. They really seem to get Haydn. Breathed a whole new freshness into The Creation for me too. Also enjoyed McCreesh’s The Seasons.

On to Mozart. First up, his compositions to 1779, plus other composers born 1733-39. In other words, it’s Michael Haydn week! Yes, he only got one recommendation that qualifies to be listed here, but I suspect we’ll hear much about him this week.


*Level 1*
*Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus*: *Le Nozze di Figaro*

*Level 2*
No Works

*Level 3*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Sinfonia Concertante
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Violin Concerto No. 5 "Turkish"

*Level 4*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Sonata No. 8
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 10, Concerto for Two Pianos K.365
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 9
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Violin Concerto No. 4

*Level 5*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Violin Concerto No. 3
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Flute and Harp Concerto K. 299
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Symphony No. 31 "Paris"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Symphony No. 25
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Symphony No. 29
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Exsultate, Jubiate
*Dittersdorf, Karl Ditters von*: Symphony No. 1 after Ovid's Metamorphoses "The Four Ages of the World"
Dittersdorf, Karl Ditters von: Symphony No. 2 after Ovid's Metamorphoses "The Fall of Phaeton"
Dittersdorf, Karl Ditters von: Symphony No. 3 after Ovid's Metamorphoses "The Metamorphosis of Acteon into a Stag"
Dittersdorf, Karl Ditters von: Symphony No. 4 after Ovid's Metamorphoses "The Rescue of Andromeda by Perseus"
Dittersdorf, Karl Ditters von: Symphony No. 5 after Ovid's Metamorphoses The Petrification of Phineus and his Friend"
Dittersdorf, Karl Ditters von: Symphony No. 6 after Ovid's Metamorphoses "The Transformation of the Lycian Peasants into Frogs"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Serenade No. 6 "Serenata Notturna"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Serenade No. 7 in D Major "Haffner"

*Level 6*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Violin Sonata No. 27 K. 379
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Violin Sonata No. 35 K. 526
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Oboe Concerto in C major (Flute Concerto No. 2)
*Haydn, Michael*: Requiem in C minor "Missa pro defuncto Archiepiscopo Sigismundo"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Violin Sonata No. 21 K. 304
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Violin Sonata No. 18 K. 301
*Danzi, Franz*: Wind Quintet Op. 67 No. 2 in E Minor
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Violin Sonata No. 17 K. 296

*Level 7*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Serenade No. 9 K. 320
Dittersdorf, Karl Ditters von: Double Bass Concerto
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Symphony No. 33
Danzi, Franz: Wind Quintet Op. 56
Danzi, Franz: Sonata for Horn Op. 28
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Divertimento No. 11 K. 251


I’m disappointed that Mozart’s Divertimenti “Salzburg Symphonies” didn’t make the grade. Love them.

*Honourable mentions:*
Schobert, Johann: Piano Quartets & Trios, Violin Sonatas, Harpsichord Quartets & Sonata
Schweitzer, Anton: Alceste & Pygmalion
Mysliveček, Josef: Sinfonie Concertante in D Major
Gossek, François-Joseph: L'Offrandre à la Liberte, Marche Lugubre, Messe des Morts, Six Symphonies à Grande Orchestre, Te Deum


I’ve only listened to the Harnoncourt/VPO/Netrebko highlights of Le Nozze di Figaro before now. Time to emerse myself in the full three-hour experience courtesy of Jacobs/Concerto Koln.


----------



## new but obsessed

very excited to be diving deeper into Mozart. And looking over the list, I realize I don't really know too much of Mozart's earlier work. I've not seen Figaro yet, and only really know its fantastic overture -- I have only seen Clemency of Titus and Magic Flute, which I imagine will be tackled in the final week of Mozart. I'm sure I'll see Figaro sooner or later, so I'll stick to the highlights, in my case, the Decca recording of Solti, London Phil with Te Kanawa and von Stade, both of whom I really dig.

EDIT: I've listened up to Voi Che Sapete. First off --- I just love von Stade's voice, and reminds me so much of her recording of La Cenerentola, which I love so much. Also, can someone please help me figure out where I know this tune from? Is it "sampled" or mimicked in another extremely popular song? Or is that main melody a religious or traditional hymn? I know it sounds extremely familiar, but I can't put my finger on it


----------



## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> *Haydn, Michael*: Requiem in C minor "Missa pro defuncto Archiepiscopo Sigismundo"


Nowadays, the only version I listen to is *Raphaël Pichon's*, who doesn't drag out the Dies irae, unlike the other conductors who sound rather 'lukewarm' in drama (I don't think his version is available on CD yet though). David Wyn Jones claims that "_Michael Haydn’s music has a thorough competence of technique as well a real sense of theatre (in the broadest sense) that is reflected in Mozart’s music._" [ Rediscovering Michael Haydn: an interview with David Wyn Jones - ], and imv, the requiem is one of many examples of the proof.

Requiem 1st theme & "trumpet signal": [ 0:20 ]
Requiem 2nd theme: [ 3:20 ~ 3:45 ]
Dies irae theme: [ 6:26 ~ 2:38 ]
Requiem '3rd theme': [ 7:00 ~ 7:12 ]
Lacrimosa theme: [ 11:41 ~ 11:48 ]
Dies irae theme recapitulated (within 'Dies irae' movement): [ 12:12 ~ 12:24 ]
Requiem '3rd theme' recapitulated (within 'Dies irae' movement) +
chromatic fourth theme (climbing from D to G in bass): [ 12:40 ~ 12:50 ]
Amen & Requiem '3rd theme' elaborated (coda of 'Dies irae' movement): [ 12:52 ~ 13:40 ]
Quam olim abrahae fugue: [ 16:06 ~ 17:18 ]
Quam olim abrahae fugue recapitulated (with added figures in strings): [ 18:52 ~ 20:02 ]
Hosanna theme (Lacrimosa theme transformed/recapitulated): [ 24:23 ~ 24:30 ]
Requiem '4th theme' & "trumpet signal": [ 26:48 ; 27:56 ]
chromatic fourth theme recapitulated (climbing from G to C in soprano): [ 28:40 ~ 28:50 ]
Cum sanctis tuis fugue: [ 29:17 ~ 31:16 ]
Requiem 2nd theme recapitulated: [ 31:22 ~ 31:50 ]
Requiem 1st theme recapitulated: [ 31:58 ~ 32:30 ]
Cum sanctis tuis fugue recapitulated: [ 32:38 ~ 34:30 ]


----------



## hammeredklavier

To my mind, Michael Haydn, in many ways, a polar opposite of Luigi Boccherini. If you appreciate the "Germanness" in Mozart (ie. spicy-sounding "vertical harmonies" of chromaticism, and the dominance of the orchestra over the singing in opera), I think you'll also appreciate Haydn. I think anyone wanting to get familiar with his music should at least know these five symphonies by him:

*symphony No.18 in C, MH188 *(Bournemouth Sinfonietta, Harold Farberman) watch?v=v80s4yjSdQM

*symphony No.22 in F, MH284 *(Deutsche Kammerakademie Neuss, Johannes Goritzki) watch?v=ppTToo8lrMQ

*symphony No.27 in B flat, MH358 *(Slovak Chamber Orchestra, Bohdan Warchal) watch?v=e8ba5g_jF5M

*symphony No.31 in F, MH405 *(Deutsche Kammerakademie Neuss, Johannes Goritzki) watch?v=GnzHku6aHYE

*symphony No.33 in B flat, MH425 *(Deutsche Kammerakademie Neuss, Frank Beermann) watch?v=Wd_tGncMC30



hammeredklavier said:


> 27th: Take note of the harmonies at 4:10 (I feel 'pain' at 5:00 and 'consolation' at 5:27). The slow movement in a major key is so sad; the harmonies at 9:20, and the interplay of wind solos at 10:45. The contrapuntal acrobatics (17:30) in the third, final movement are also dazzling. I think he's especially good at this sort of stuff (as an organist); building up with contrapuntal dissonance and climaxing with a pedal - kind of reminds me of the Domine jesu from Mozart's Requiem. Btw, a real earworm in the third, final movement (16:30).





hammeredklavier said:


> 18th: Think of it this way -
> watch?v=3UzZ6vLZhSA&t=2m48s 2:48~4:00 - the harsh dissonances imply "pain" (the emotional center of the movement; climaxes at 3:25).
> watch?v=3UzZ6vLZhSA&t=4m48s 4:48~5:24 - the dissonances (in this false recapitulation) are milder than those of the central section, but more introspective/contemplative in expression, as if to portray a person reflecting on his past.
> watch?v=3UzZ6vLZhSA&t=5m36s the idyllic theme from the exposition returns, but it is initially 'held back' to establish tension in preparation for the conclusion (6:26), which extends in phrase (6:50) to expressively bring everything to a resolution.
> Do you think this is simply music written to fulfill a commission? Listen to the final chords of the movement and think about all the modulations that came before it and the expressive mental images conjured up, especially the "expression of pain" at 2:48~4:00.





hammeredklavier said:


> 33rd: also interesting are certain "resemblances" between the movements:
> -mov.1 seems to share this motif [2:43] with mov.2 [6:38], and mov.4 ("inverted" horizontally) [15:57].
> -the contrapuntal passages of mov.1 [2:09 (2:27)] and mov.4 [19:17 (19:30)].
> mov.3 ends with a coda (rather than a da capo), kind of like Beethoven's scherzos.


----------



## hammeredklavier

A fine recording, but with the G major MH189, the "emotional weight" seems better pronounced in




(Das Wiener Philharmonia Quintett)


----------



## Mandryka

Very attractive string quintets by Michael Haydn, thanks.


----------



## new but obsessed

new but obsessed said:


> I've listened up to Voi Che Sapete. First off --- I just love von Stade's voice, and reminds me so much of her recording of La Cenerentola, which I love so much. Also, can someone please help me figure out where I know this tune from? Is it "sampled" or mimicked in another extremely popular song? Or is that main melody a religious or traditional hymn? I know it sounds extremely familiar, but I can't put my finger on it


I've just figured it out for myself, after much banging my head against the wall. Somehow this tune kept on reminding me of the Christmas carol, O Come All Ye Faithful. I subsequently tried to Google the two songs together and the only relevant search result happened to also be from TC. Glad I'm not alone in Voi Che Sapete triggering this connection!



Woodduck said:


> It always makes me think of "O Come, All Ye Faithful."


----------



## pianozach

As a pianist I'm distressed by the complete lack of J. Haydn piano sonatas. There's over 60 of them.

I used to perform the Sonata in D Major. It's great fun to play.

*Piano Sonata in D, No.50, Hob.XVI/37





*


----------



## Chilham

pianozach said:


> As a pianist I'm distressed by the complete lack of J. Haydn piano sonatas. There's over 60 of them....


Look again. Piano Sonatas 31, 33, 60 & 62 were all recommended and included here.

Piano Sonatas 32, 35, 46, 48, 50, 58, 59, 61 were also recommended but do not appear as they aren't included in the TC favourite listing (I include all works that received four of more recommendations, but only those with three or less recommendations that are included in Science's listing).


----------



## hammeredklavier

Mandryka said:


> Very attractive string quintets by Michael Haydn, thanks.


With the quintets, I've especially found MH367 memorable with its rigorous counterpoint from start to finish. MH411, MH412 are "divertimento" works each consisting of more than 4 movements (the brevity of their slow movements is compensated by their middle variation movements), each having what I perceive as their "advantages" and "disadvantages".

In terms of "theatrics with dramatic use of harmony" MH412/i [JaAKARuijy8&t=3m @3:42] is perhaps the most noteworthy. But overall the use of 'dark colors' of harmony I find the movements of MH411 more rigorous generally, [uwwMLcbvXNU&t=3m43s], [6bIQF2qavSM&t=3m58s], [e6agkTnl-FE&t=2m34s]. (I think the middle variation movement of MH412 is somewhat of a snoozefest in this regard). On the other hand MH411 contains what I perceive as a "filler movement", especially the March (the 7th movement), which perhaps Haydn added to please Colloredo. If the 7th movement is dropped, I think the whole work (with the "thematic similarity" or "similarity in handling of thematic material" of the 1st [6bIQF2qavSM&t=2m57s] and the 6th [sf15DLWNbt0&t=58s]) would be "perfect".

MH367/i [5a6LX8PSPyI&t=1m33s] is perhaps most similar to string quartet (or "divertimento for string quartet") MH299/i [UzH916E1z_0&t=1m] in impression. I think this sort of "glorious feel" created with questions/answers/pauses (as in the 27th symphony 3rd movement) is what makes Haydn unique. The middle variation movement of MH299 [UzH916E1z_0&t=6m3s] perhaps is the most "glorious-feeling" among Haydn's variation movements, in terms of thematic material, (anticipating that of Mozart's string quartet of the same key, 4 years later.)






speaking of his other chamber music, there are other works I care about, such as divertimento in C MH179, divertimento in C MH600 (a daring work of harmony, imv), serenade in D MH407 - a lot of them having "operatic character".



















hammeredklavier said:


> -portions of music where the composers intend dramatic emphasis with harmony;
> 5:10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Divertimento in C, P. 115


MH179 strikes me as particularly memorable with its abundance of melodic charm— the slower, middle movements having "caressing properties" like the "Ach lieder, ich bin eizig schuld".














Divertimento in C Major, P. 98 (version for oboe, viola and double bass) : II. Menuet


Provided to YouTube by NAXOS of AmericaDivertimento in C Major, P. 98 (version for oboe, viola and double bass) : II. Menuet · Alessandro BacciniMozart: Oboe...




www.youtube.com

















Divertimento in C Major, P. 98 (version for oboe, viola and double bass) : V. Andante - Theme...


Provided to YouTube by NAXOS of AmericaDivertimento in C Major, P. 98 (version for oboe, viola and double bass) : V. Andante - Theme and Variations · Alessan...




www.youtube.com












Divertimento in C Major, P. 98 (version for oboe, viola and double bass) : IV. Menuet


Provided to YouTube by NAXOS of AmericaDivertimento in C Major, P. 98 (version for oboe, viola and double bass) : IV. Menuet · Alessandro BacciniMozart: Oboe...




www.youtube.com


----------



## Chilham

Chilham said:


> ... I’ve only listened to the Harnoncourt/VPO/Netrebko highlights of Le Nozze di Figaro before now. Time to emerse myself in the full three-hour experience courtesy of Jacobs/Concerto Koln.


Simply stunning!

In a similar vein, I've previously only listened to Mozart's Violin Concerto No. 5 from Menuhin, Perlman and Steinbacher. Treated myself to Isabelle Faust with Antonini/Il Giardino Armonico, each of whom I've enjoyed separately on other works:


----------



## Luchesi

hammeredklavier said:


> To my mind, Michael Haydn, in many ways, a polar opposite of Luigi Boccherini. If you appreciate the "Germanness" in Mozart (ie. spicy-sounding "vertical harmonies" of chromaticism, and the dominance of the orchestra over the singing in opera), I think you'll also appreciate Haydn. I think anyone wanting to get familiar with his music should at least know these five symphonies by him:
> 
> *symphony No.18 in C, MH188 *(Bournemouth Sinfonietta, Harold Farberman) watch?v=v80s4yjSdQM
> 
> *symphony No.22 in F, MH284 *(Deutsche Kammerakademie Neuss, Johannes Goritzki) watch?v=ppTToo8lrMQ
> 
> *symphony No.27 in B flat, MH358 *(Slovak Chamber Orchestra, Bohdan Warchal) watch?v=e8ba5g_jF5M
> 
> *symphony No.31 in F, MH405 *(Deutsche Kammerakademie Neuss, Johannes Goritzki) watch?v=GnzHku6aHYE
> 
> *symphony No.33 in B flat, MH425 *(Deutsche Kammerakademie Neuss, Frank Beermann) watch?v=Wd_tGncMC30


Are there any fun, small pieces for young pianists? This might be why he's overlooked.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> In a similar vein, I've previously only listened to Mozart's Violin Concerto No. 5 from Menuhin, Perlman and Steinbacher. Treated myself to Isabelle Faust with Antonini/Il Giardino Armonico, each of whom I've enjoyed separately on other works:


Peter Sheppard · Parnassus Ensemble


----------



## Chilham

The recommended piece from Michael Haydn last week was outstanding. I very much enjoyed it.










On to Mozart's works 1780-1785, and composers born 1740-49. That means it's piano concerto week! More piano concertos than you can shake a stick at.

*Level 1*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: *Don Giovanni* esp. Overture, Act I, "Madamina, il catalogo è questo", "La Ci Darem la Mano", "Or Sai Chi l'Onore", Act II, "Il Mio Tesoro", "Non Mi Dir", Finale, "Don Giovani, a Cenor Teco", Serenade










*Level 2*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: *Piano Concerto No. 21* in C major "Elvira Madigan"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Serenade No. 13 in G major "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: *Piano Concerto No. 20* in D minor










*Level 3*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quartet "Haydn" No. 19 "Dissonance"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: *Symphony No. 36* "Linz"
*Boccherini, Luigi*: String Quintet In E Major, Op.11 esp. No.5 Minuet
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Sonata No.11

*Level 4*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Mass in C minor, K. 427 “The Great”
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 22
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 17 in G major
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quartet "Haydn" No. 15
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 19
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus : Idomeneo
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Horn Concerto No. 2
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: *Symphony No. 35* in D major, K. 385 "Haffner-Sinfonie"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quartet "Haydn" No. 14
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 15
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quartet "Haydn" No. 16
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quartet "Haydn" No. 18
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Die Entführung aus dem Serail
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 14
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 18

*Level 5*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Serenade No. 10 "Gran Partita"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Horn Concerto No. 1
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quartet "Haydn" No. 17 "The Hunt"
Boccherini, Luigi: Cello Concerto No. 9 in B-flat, G. 482
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 16
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 12
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 13
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Quartet No. 1 in G minor K. 478
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 11
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Quintet for Piano and Winds in E-flat
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Sonata No.14
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Fantasie in C Minor K. 475
Boccherini, Luigi: String Quintet in C minor, op. 31/4, G. 328
Boccherini, Luigi: String Quintet in D, op. 39/3, G. 339
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Sonata No. 12

*Level 6*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Sonata for Two Pianos in D major, K. 448/375a
Boccherini, Luigi: Guitar Quintet No. 4 "Fandango"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Symphony No. 34
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Oboe Quartet No. 1 in F Major
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Sonata No. 10
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Sonata No. 13
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Vesperae solennes de confessore
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Violin Sonata No. 32 K. 454
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: 12 Variations on ‘Ah, vous dirai-je, Maman' K. 265

*Level 7*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Fantasia No. 3 K. 397


*Honourable mentions*:
Paisello: Antigono
Herder: Volkslied
Martines: Il Primo Amore
Berezovsky: Divine Liturgy
Boulogne: Symphony in G Major Op. 11 No. 1, Overture from L'Amant Anonyme
Stamitz, C: 2 Octet Partitas, 3 Octets, Clarinet Concerto, Quartet in E0flat Major, Symphony in D Minor
Billings: Africa, Chester
Cimarosa: Oboe Concerto in C Major


Happy listening!


----------



## new but obsessed

Excited to dig into Don Giovanni. I've only ever listened to a couple outtakes, and most influentially back in my teen days, the dramatic scene included in Amadeus. (I still love that movie -- probably my first primordial experience of opera, over a decade before I got into real opera and classical music).

I couldn't find a highlights cut of the Y.N-S recording you cited, which is a shame because I love Damrau and Di Donato. But I did find a handy Decca album from Solti, London Phil, Bryn Terfel, and Renee Fleming, and I'm excited to give that a listen.

Just to clarify your suggested excerpts: I figure the "serenade" is the "Deh! Vieni alla finestra" segment. And the "finale" is what starts in "Don G... a cenar teco..." through "Ah! Dov'e il perfido?" then "Questo È Il Fin Di Chi Fa Mal!". 

Happy Mozart week 2!


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## Mandryka

Do listen to the Boccherini op 11 quintets - not just the famous minuet. It is charming music, full of delightful invention.


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## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> .... Just to clarify your suggested excerpts: I figure the "serenade" is the "Deh! Vieni alla finestra" segment. And the "finale" is what starts in "Don G... a cenar teco..." through "Ah! Dov'e il perfido?" then "Questo È Il Fin Di Chi Fa Mal!"....


That's what I understood too.


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## new but obsessed

Mandryka said:


> Do listen to the Boccherini op 11 quintets - not just the famous minuet. It is charming music, full of delightful invention.


I certainly will, if I can find enough time to get through all of these through Level 3. Lots of good stuff. And I'm still working my way through Don G. Interestingly, in listening to this opera, I've for the first time come to see why other posters around TC have connected Rossini very closely with Mozart (as compared with Rossini's Bel Canto contemporaries). The music of Don G. is reminding me greatly of Barber and Cenerentola, and more so than any of the other Mozart compositions. Last week I was expecting to find that direct Mozart-Rossini connection when listening to The Marriage of Figaro. Ironic that it isn't Figaro but instead Don G that to my ears conjures up my strongest memories of Rossini's operas. Especially the trios and foursomes that remind me of the chaotic comedy scenes from Cenerentola. 

Is there something unique about Don G. in comparison to the rest of Mozart's work? I know Rossini grew up studying Mozart very closely, but I'd never heard it as clearly as now.


----------



## Mandryka

new but obsessed said:


> Is there something unique about Don G. in comparison to the rest of Mozart's work? I know Rossini grew up studying Mozart very closely, but I'd never heard it as clearly as now.


More explicit sex and violence. The time scale of Don Giovanni is special - I think it all takes place in 24 hours. There are some moments when things seem to break down, existential crises of some kind for Don Giovanni (the end of act 1 for example ) The character of Don Giovanni is complex - his way of controlling and influencing and manipulating the people who surround him, as if the opera is a study in power. 

(I know zilch about Rossini.)


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## Kreisler jr

I think the commonality with Rossini is not specifically Mozart, but common late 18th century opera buffa that will be similar in Cimaros, Salieri and others. 
The following generation, like Hoffmann, were obsessed with Don Giovanni because this was the archetypal "Byronic hero", unrepentant even in the face of supernatural justice. And the darker eroticism (Did he do Anna, was it forced? the obssession of the dumped Elvira etc.) compared to the apparently more harmless flirtation games of Cosi and Figaro appealed to them as well. Similarly, the music is not pure buffa but has both the dark hell/commendatore music and the more opera seria style arias by Elvira, Anna and Ottavio. 
Mozart mixed genres in all Da Ponte operas and in both German Singspiel operas (the most diverse and daring mix is Magic flute that has Seria arias (the Queen), Buffa (the ensembles), Viennese Singspiel comedy (Papageno), Masonic Music, chorales (Priests, genies, Armed men). It still needed another generation and a few seminal works (especially Freischütz) to establish a German opera that was not merely aping French or Italian or such a unique mix as Magic Flute.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> Similarly, the music is not pure buffa but has both the dark hell/commendatore music and the more opera seria style arias by Elvira, Anna and Ottavio.
> Mozart mixed genres in all Da Ponte operas and in both German Singspiel operas (the most diverse and daring mix is Magic flute that has Seria arias (the Queen), Buffa (the ensembles), Viennese Singspiel comedy (Papageno), Masonic Music, chorales (Priests, genies, Armed men).


Yes. As mentioned earlier, there is a difference between the "traditional German style" and Mozart's Die Entführung aus dem Serail, Die Zauberflöte;


hammeredklavier said:


> One interesting thing to note about the traditional singspiels, which I posted, Die Hochzeit auf der Alm, Schäfergedicht in 2 Aufzügen MH 107 (1768) and Die Wahrheit der Natur, Ein Singspiel MH 118 (1769) is that they lack foreign influences (compared to Mozart's), for instance, they lack coloratura arias of any kind in their numbers. Instead the numbers are more Lied-like; consisting of repetitious (since they're basically poems with stanzas set to music), rustic melodies that are catchy enough to not bore the listener each time they come back.


----------



## new but obsessed

Thanks folks! Indeed, so much to digest, beyond the immediate enjoyment and appreciation for the music. I guess like other artists of the highest caliber, Mozart is both able to create music that is instantly recognizable as and also remain endlessly diverse and surprising. I guess this is why it's simplest, for a neophyte like myself, to consider Mozart and Beethoven separately from the larger artistic movements around them, even though they are certainly integral to their contemporary periods and many of their works are emblematic of the historical understanding of the prevailing styles of their day. 

I imagine the same can be said for Bach, possibly even Verdi and Wagner. But not for Rossini, Donizetti, and most other great composers. (My bias for opera is now quite clear, I'm sure). 

On a side note: I've neither seen nor heard Die Entführung aus dem Serail, but one of my pals in my opera-going gang spoke of a local production he saw that was surprising and extremely entertaining. It's not the next Mozart opera I'm dying to see -- Figaro and Don G probably are atop that list -- but I'd certainly go to see it if I were in a city where it was on stage.


----------



## marlow

I always debate which of the da Ponte operas of Mozart is the greatest opera of all. I usually come to the conclusion it is the one I’m listening to at the time! It is just incredible the way he creates such emotion with such simplicity


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## Kreisler jr

new but obsessed said:


> On a side note: I've neither seen nor heard Die Entführung aus dem Serail, but one of my pals in my opera-going gang spoke of a local production he saw that was surprising and extremely entertaining. It's not the next Mozart opera I'm dying to see -- Figaro and Don G probably are atop that list -- but I'd certainly go to see it if I were in a city where it was on stage.


It's entertaining and rather brief and straightforward (compared with the intricate cabals of the Da Ponte). It also has a surprising twist about the "bad guy". Like other cases, many listeners don't like spoken (German) dialogue between the music (very understandable on records) and that's probably also a reason why it seems far more popular in Germany/Austria than internationally. The story is also a bit silly at times, an important role is speaking only, and there is a 10 min opera seria coloratura aria with concertante woodwinds in what's otherwise mostly a singspiel (although quite elaborate overall and in instrumentation) that really sticks out (while I think that the two arias of the Queen in the Magic Flute don't to such an extent because the Queen is obviously a special character) My odd favorite is the pseudo-archaic "crusader's serenade" ("Im Morgenland gefangen war").
It's justified that people, especially newcomers focus on Magic flute and the three Da Ponte but Idomeneo and Entführung are mature and important operas that should not be ignored (while Schauspieldirektor and Clemenza can be safely left for much later).


----------



## Mandryka

Entfuhrung is performed as a private opera in Anthony Powell's A Dance to the Music of Time -- ever since reading it I've always fancied doing that myself if when I become rich. You can get a glimpse of it in the BBC adaptation -- recommended. I very much like Osmin in the opera. 
A Dance to the Music of Time - Episode #4 "Post War" (1997) - YouTube


----------



## new but obsessed

Kreisler jr said:


> ...mostly a singspiel (although quite elaborate overall and in instrumentation) that really sticks out (while I think that the two arias of the Queen in the Magic Flute don't to such an extent because the Queen is obviously a special character)...
> ...It's justified that people, especially newcomers focus on Magic flute and the three Da Ponte but Idomeneo and Entführung are mature and important operas that should not be ignored (while Schauspieldirektor and Clemenza can be safely left for much later).


I haven't had any proper experience with singspiel. My only exposure was a Barrie Kosky version of Magic Flute (it was playing locally and was my first exposure to this opera), and I see the advantage of using projected text / silent-film style interstitials to relay dialogue and shorten the run time. But the odd 1920s flapper costuming wasn't quite my style. If one were to stray away from the traditional production, I'd much rather a surrealist, eccentric, pagan voodoo rendition that leans into all the weirdness of the text, with all its wizards, magic, symbolism, metaphors, the underworld, etc etc. 

And funny that you bring up Clemenza. It was the second opera I ever saw, soon after my random attendance to a local performance of Satyagraha blew my socks off and got me hooked on the art form and to classical music in general. I LOVED the story, acting, and production value of the local Clemenza. But man, I didn't understand the music AT ALL. I'd like to see it again one day.



Mandryka said:


> Entfuhrung is performed as a private opera in Anthony Powell's A Dance to the Music of Time -- ever since reading it I've always fancied doing that myself if when I become rich.


If wealth isn't in the cards, the other option is to take a page from Kim Jong-il and capture a conductor, orchestra, and some singers for your private theater. 😜


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## Kreisler jr

What is wrong with buying a ticket for a normal "public" theater? 
One of the few directors even weirder than Kosky, Calixto Bieito (someone who as apparently a sexual trauma or fetish that makes Almodovar appear sane) let the Abduction take place in a brothel (Berlin, Komische Oper). While it was not entirely exotic fun in the 1780s as until the early 19th century there was a very real threat that a ship's passage in the Mediterranean or even the Bay of Biscay could end up on a North African Slave market and eventually in a Serail, the opera mostly makes fun of it and it also has the inversion cliché that the men (who try to free the women from the Serail) are completely useless (despite the blustering incompetence of the warden Osmin they fail) and the only capable person seems the female servant/companion Blonde. Bieito definitely made the piece far more serious and brutal than intended and it works quite well as "harmless" comic opera. 
I personally don't have any problems with the spoken dialogue on stage if overall done well. There are several great operas (Entführung, Flute, Fidelio, Freischütz, Carmen) with this form and it is still used in musicals. Secco recitative seems far stranger than just spoken words without any music until one gets used to it.


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## Chilham

Coming at you a day early this week, as I'm away for the weekend. So, whilst I'm wandering Kew Gardens tomorrow and watching the rugby on Sunday, you can be getting a head start finishing off Mozart and other composers born 1750-59.

*Level 1*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: *Die Zauberflöte* esp. Queen of the Night, O Zittre Night, Der Hölle Rache, The Birdcatcher's Song (Papageno)










Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: *Symphony No. 41 "Jupiter"*

*









Level 2*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus/Süssmayr, Franz Xaver: *Requiem K. 626*










Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Clarinet Concerto K. 622

*Level 3*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: *Symphony No. 40*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: *Symphony No. 38 "Prague"*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Clarinet Quintet K. 581
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 24
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Horn Concerto No. 4










Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 23

*Level 4*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: *Symphony No. 39*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 27
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: *Horn Concerto No. 3*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Così Fan Tutte
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 25
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quintet No. 4
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Ave Verum Corpus K618
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus : Clarinet & Piano Trio No. 2 K.498 "Kegelstatt"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus : La Clemenza di Tito esp. Overture
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 26

*Level 5*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quintet No. 3 K. 515
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Divertimento for String Trio K. 563
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Rondo From "A Musical Joke"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quartet "Prussian" No. 23
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quartet No. 20 "Hoffmeister"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quartet "Prussian" No. 21
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quartet "Prussian" No. 22
*Clementi, Muzio*: Piano Sonata Op. 25 No. 5

*Level 6*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Sonata No. 16 "Semplice"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Sonata No. 17
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Sonata for Four Hands K. 497
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quintet No. 5
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quintet No. 6
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Quartet No. 2
*Clementi, Muzio*: Gradus ad Parnassum
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Sonata No. 18
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Sonata No. 15
*Clementi, Muzio*: Symphony No. 2

*Level 7*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Rondo in A Minor K. 511
*Rosetti, Antonio*: 3 Concertos for 2 Horns
*Bortniasky, Dmitry*: Sacred Concerto No. 15
*Rosetti, Antonio*: 4 Concertos for Horn


*Honourable mentions:*
*Salieri, Antonio*: Falstaff
Smith: John Stafford: To Anacreon in Heaven
Dalryac, Nicolas-Marie: Maison à Vendre
Martin y Soler, Anastasio “Vincente”: L’Arore di Diana
*Kraus, Joseph Martin*: Symphony in D Major
Pleyel, Ignace: String Quartet in A Major Op. 2 No. 1
Kramàr, František: 2 Oboe Concertos Op. 37, Op. 52, 3 Clarinet Concertos Op. 35, Op. 36, Op. 86
Paradis, Maria Theresia von: Sicilienne in E-flat Major


----------



## pianozach

I think you may be UNDERrating some of Mozart's works . . .


----------



## Chilham

pianozach said:


> I think you may be UNDERrating some of Mozart's works . . .


Not me. I just share what others rated. We need to take it up with Swafford, and the other sources I used. 🙂


----------



## pianozach

Chilham said:


> Not me. I just share what others rated. We need to take it up with Swafford, and the other sources I used. 🙂


Yeah, I'd rate Mozart's *Requiem* _and_ *Symphony No. 40* as "Top Tier" works.


----------



## Chilham

pianozach said:


> Yeah, I'd rate Mozart's *Requiem* _and_ *Symphony No. 40* as "Top Tier" works.


They're both fine works. 

I just double-checked and discovered I'd duplicated one recommendation for Symphony 40. That drops it to Tier 3 with only 15 recommendations. I agree with you that it seems "under-rated". Requiem missed out on Tier 1 by a single recommendation. It received 21 recommendations from the 36 sources I reviewed. Tier 1 is for pieces that received 22 recommendations or more: 

Tier 1: 22-36 recommendations
Tier 2: 16-21
Tier 3: 11-15
Tier 4: 7-10
Tier 5: 4-6
Tier 6: 2-3
Tier 7: 1

For reference, Symphony 41 got 24 recommendations and The Magic Flute 27. 

I think it's fair to say that operas are perhaps over represented in the listings, or certainly more highly recommended in comparison with other forms of music. I'm not sure why that is but it certainly seems to be a consistent trend.


----------



## Chilham

Very excited. I've just booked tickets for The Marriage of Figaro at Glyndebourne for my wife's birthday in July.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Very excited. I've just booked tickets for The Marriage of Figaro at Glyndebourne for my wife's birthday in July.


If you haven't been there before be sure to give yourself enough time to explore the grounds, take a picnic too.


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## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> If you haven't been there before be sure to give yourself enough time to explore the grounds, take a picnic too.


We've both been three times before - Pique Dame, Lulu and Jenůfa - but the last time was in 2000. The first two times we picked up corporate hospitality tickets that nobody wanted and picnicked. The last time was also my wife's birthday so we ate in one of their restaurants, on a next table to David Dimbleby. As it's a special event, we've reserved dining again, although hoping we don't have a "celebrity" close by. It got tiring.


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## Chilham

What a stunningly high level and consistency of quality over the past three weeks. Mozart was some kind of genius.

On to another genius. Beethoven's recommended works to 1805, plus other composers born 1760-69.


*Level 1*
*Beethoven, Ludwig van*: *Symphony No. 3 in E flat major "Eroica"*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: *Piano Sonata No. 14 "Moonlight"*

*Level 2*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 9 "Kreutzer" Op. 47
Beethoven, Ludwig van: *Piano Sonata No. 8 "Pathétique"*

*Level 3*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: *Piano Sonata No. 21 "Waldstein"*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 23 "Appassionata"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No. 1
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No. 2

*Level 4*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Concerto No. 3
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Concerto No. 1
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 5 "Spring" Op. 24
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Triple Concerto
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Cello Sonata No. 1
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartets No. 1-6 esp. Nos. 1, 2, 4 & 5
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Cello Sonata No. 2
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Concerto No. 2

*Level 5*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Septet
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 17 "Tempest"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 13 "Quasi una fantasia"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Creatures of Prometheus Overture
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Trio Op. 1 No. 2
*Cherubini, Luigi*: Médée
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 18 "The Hunt"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 12 "Funeral March"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 7
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 4 "Great"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 8 Op. 30/3
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 7 Op. 30/2
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 6 Op. 30/1

*Level 6*
Cherubini, Luigi: Requiem in C Minor
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 22
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Christ on the Mount of Olives
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 3 Op. 12/3
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 1 Op. 12/1
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 2 Op. 12/2
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 4 Op. 23
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 6
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 3
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 1
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 16
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 2
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Quintet for Piano and Winds
*Dussek, Jan Ladislav*: Elégie Harmonique sur le Mort du Prince Louis Ferdinand de Prusse
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Adelaide
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Sextet for Winds Op. 71

*Level 7*
Cherubini, Luigi: String Quartet No. 6
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quintet in C
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Trio Op. 11 "Gassenhauer Trio"
Dussek, Jan Ladislav: Sonata in C Minor
*Eberl, Anton*: Piano Concerto in E-flat Major
*Méhul, Étienne-Nicolas*: Symphony No. 1
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata Wo0 47 Nos. 1-3 "Kurfürsten"

*Honourable mentions:*
Le Sueur, Jean François: Ossian, ou Les Bardes
Rouget de Lisle, Claude-Joseph: La Marseillaise
Duvel, François: Sonatas et autres Pieces
*Mayr, Johann Simon*: Che Originali, L'Amour Conjugal, Medea in Corinto
Joseph, Stratonice, Symphony No. 2, Uthal
*Degtyaryov, Stepan*: Minin and Pozharsky, or The Liberation of Moscow
Wesley, Samuel: Psalm 42, Symphony No. 4
Anon. (Ribers, Bertel): Ribers No. 8 “Sterrands Rand”


I'm going to take some time this week to really get to know the Eroica Symphony.





























Ronald Brautigam for all my early Piano Sonata needs.










And Isabelle Faust for all my early Violin Sonata needs.


----------



## Kreisler jr

Chilham said:


> I think it's fair to say that operas are perhaps over represented in the listings, or certainly more highly recommended in comparison with other forms of music. I'm not sure why that is but it certainly seems to be a consistent trend.


While there are a few more operas, it is hardly surprising that most recommendations will focus on the "Big Six" (Idomeneo, Entführung, Cosi, Figaro, Giovanni, Zauberflöte) and among them the three last mentioned will dominate. Whereas recommendations for symphonies or especially piano concertos, string quartets, sonatas will be distributed among a few more works (although the symphonies would also be dominated by 5-8 works). Another point is that some listeners will find Mozart symphonies in the history of the genre "superseded" by Beethoven and later composers whereas almost nobody will think like that about the major operas.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> I think it's fair to say that operas are perhaps over represented in the listings, or certainly more highly recommended in comparison with other forms of music. I'm not sure why that is but it certainly seems to be a consistent trend.


If you're referring to "The Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works", only like 5 people have actively participated in it (I'm telling you just in case you didn't know). The more you participate, the more chance you'll have at "bumping up" works you favor. For instance, Beethoven mass Op.86 went up by like 40 places most likely because Xisten267 often voted for it to be bumped up at various opportunities (I'm not saying it's a bad thing).



Kreisler jr said:


> Another point is that some listeners will find Mozart symphonies in the history of the genre "superseded" by Beethoven and later composers whereas almost nobody will think like that about the major operas.


Wagner? threads/greatest-ever-opera-composer.54712. It's a bit funny when people resort to the logic " nobody thinks ... / everyone thinks ... " only when it favors them. Of course when someone thinks a modest Telemann cantata is in the "same range of expression and gravitas" as Bach, it's an "intelligent unpopular opinion", never a "sophomoric" one.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Dussek concertos





Mehul symphony in G minor





Cherubini requiem in C minor


----------



## Chilham

hammeredklavier said:


> If you're referring to "The Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works"....


I wasn't.


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## Xisten267

hammeredklavier said:


> For instance, Beethoven mass Op.86 went up by like 40 places most likely because Xisten267 often voted for it to be bumped up at various opportunities (I'm not saying it's a bad thing).´


Because it contains excellent music and deserves to be more well known. Gardiner is overall a top choice for it in my opinion, but for the Agnus Dei/Qui Tollis I suggest Giulini.



Chilham said:


> *Level 5*
> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Septet
> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 17 "Tempest"
> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 13 "Quasi una fantasia"
> *Beethoven, Ludwig van: Creatures of Prometheus Overture*
> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Trio Op. 1 No. 2
> *Cherubini, Luigi*: Médée
> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 18 "The Hunt"
> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 12 "Funeral March"
> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 7
> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 4 "Great"
> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 8 Op. 30/3
> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 7 Op. 30/2
> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 6 Op. 30/1


As a Beethoven enthusiast, I highly suggest that you listen to more than just the overture to _The Creatures of Prometheus_. I think that it's a very exciting piece of music, perhaps the first orchestral masterpiece by Beethoven, and to me at least it's vastly underrated. The version with Zubin Mehta and the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra on youtube is a very good starting point to it in my opinion:


----------



## hammeredklavier

Xisten267 said:


> Because it contains excellent music and deserves to be more well known.


Your points are well taken, and I wasn't saying it doesn't. I would honestly respect your preferences if you said you prefer the style of Beethoven Op.86 over any other composer's, and I do personally think Beethoven's sense for Catholic spirituality is uniquely expressive, especially in moments like the kyrie, et incarnatus est, et vitam venturi, in the Missa solemnis. I just don't believe in the validity of rankings or recommendation lists when it comes to "objective greatness"; it's too vague a concept.


----------



## Chilham

Xisten267 said:


> ... As a Beethoven enthusiast, I highly suggest that you listen to more than just the overture to _The Creatures of Prometheus_. I think that it's a very exciting piece of music, perhaps the first orchestral masterpiece by Beethoven, and to me at least it's vastly underrated. The version with Zubin Mehta and the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra on youtube is a very good starting point to it in my opinion:


Thanks for the recommendation. I have the Harnoncourt/Chamber Orchestra of Europe version lined-up for later in the week.


----------



## Chilham

hammeredklavier said:


> ... "objective greatness"...


Let's not go there in this thread, eh?


----------



## Chilham

Xisten267 said:


> ...As a Beethoven enthusiast, I highly suggest that you listen to more than just the overture to _The Creatures of Prometheus_. I think that it's a very exciting piece of music, perhaps the first orchestral masterpiece by Beethoven, and to me at least it's vastly underrated....


Yes, this ticks a lot of boxes for me.


----------



## pianozach

*My Beethoven suggestions, from my "Beginners Guide":

3. Beethoven - Symphony No. 3 "Eroica"
16. Beethoven – Symphony No. 5 in C minor, Op. 67. 1808 
28. Beethoven - Piano Sonata No. 14 in C♯ minor (“Moonlight Sonata”)
34. Beethoven’s Symphony No. 6 
39. Beethoven - Symphony No. 9
42. Beethoven’s Symphony No. 7
43. Beethoven’s Piano Concerto No. 4 in G Major: Op.50
50. Beethoven’s String Quartet in F Major Op.59, no.1
51. Beethoven – “Razumovsky” String Quartets
55. Beethoven – Piano Sonata No. 8 in C minor, Op. 13 “Pathetique”
76. Beethoven – Sonata no. 28
96. Beethoven – Piano Concerto No. 5
144. Beethoven - Grosse Fugue

Sneak Preview (Shhh - don't tell!):

176. ||||| |||| Violin Concerto in D, Op. 61
177. ||||| || Missa Solemnis, Op. 123
178. ||||| || Piano Sonata No. 23, Op. 57 “Appassionata”
179. ||||| | Fidelio, Op. 72
180. ||||| | String Quartet No. 14, Op. 131
202. //// Beethoven String Quartet No 13, Op 130 (1826)
206. // Beethoven: Piano Trio No. 7 "Archduke"

Naturally, these are all the "usual suspects", ones you're likely to find on any Top 20 Beethoven works. *


----------



## Chilham

Y'all ready for this?

Beethoven works 1806-1811 and other composers born 1770-1783.

*Level 1*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: *Symphony No. 5*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: *Symphony No. 6 "Pastoral"*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: *Piano Concerto No. 5 "Emperor"*

*Level 2*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Concerto Op 61
Beethoven, Ludwig van: *String Quartet No. 7 "Razumovsky Quartets"*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Fidelio

*Level 3*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: *String Quartet No. 9 "Razumovsky Quartets"*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: *String Quartet No. 8 "Razumovsky Quartets"*
*Paganini, Niccolò*: 24 Caprice Op. 1
Beethoven, Ludwig van: *Piano Concerto No. 4*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No. 4
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Bagatelle No. 25 WoO 59 "Für Elise"

*Level 4*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartet No. 10 "Harp"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Cello Sonata No. 3
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartet No. 11 "Serioso"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Trio No. 5 Op. 70, No. 1, "Ghost"
Paganini, Niccolò: Violin Concerto No. 1
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Choral Fantasia

*Level 5*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Overture to Leonore No. 3
Beethoven, Ludwig van: The Ruins Of Athens
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Egmont Overture
*Field, John*: Nocturne No. 1
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Coriolan Overture
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Mass in C
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Trio No. 6 Op. 70, No. 2

*Level 6*
*Hummel, Johann*: Piano Sonata No. 3 Op. 20
Hummel, Johann: Piano Concerto No. 2
Hummel, Johann: Trumpet Concerto
Paganini, Niccolò: Violin Concerto No. 2
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Overture to Leonore No. 2
*Sor, Fernando*: Etudes for Guitar
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Overture to Leonore No. 1
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 24
Field, John: Nocturne No. 5
*Reicha, Anton*: Wind Quintets
*Giuliani, Mauro*: Guitar Concerto No. 1

*Level 7*
Hummel, Johann: Piano Trio No. 4
Paganini, Niccolò: Ghiribizzi
Spontini, Gaspare: La Vestale
Reicha, Anton: L’Art de Varier

*Honourable Mentions:*
*Boieldieu, François-Adrien*: Harp Concerto in C Major
*Crusell, Bernhard*: Clarinet Concerto No. 1
Paer, Ferdinando: Leonora, Ossia l'Amore Conjugale
Crotch, William: Palestine
Isouard, Nicolas: Aladin, ou La Lampe Merveileuse, Cendrillon


----------



## hammeredklavier

Els Biesemans plays Hummel Piano Concerto No. 2 in A Minor Op. 85 on Fortepiano (full concert)


----------



## new but obsessed

Ah, the Pastoral! It wasn't the first of Beethoven's symphonies that I heard, for sure. But upon hearing it for the first time I immediately knew it would be my favorite. And it still is. I think it just jives with my love for the outdoors. The ultimate pre-hike and post-hike car-tune! (Though my brother may have found it odd when we were out on a recent hike).

Glad to say that I was able to drag my non-classical friend to a random performance of the Pastoral when I was visiting her in Phoenix AZ a couple weekends ago. The Phoenix Symphony isn't quite the first choice to first hear this piece of music live, but for $20, I'll take it as my first live symphonic performance since 2019! 

Comparing it to the Klemperer/Philharmonia recording I'm listening to it now. The Klemperer version is maybe among the slowest renditions I've heard. I love it. Phoenix's certainly was played at a faster pace than this recording. 

To-date I've only listened to the Karajan, Barenboim, and now Klemperer versions of the 6th. Do folks have other favorites/preferred? I'm guessing that Chillam is into Chailly, whose 3rd I really enjoyed last week. I also have Bernstein's collection, and I just enjoyed his 5th for this week's journey.


----------



## fbjim

Bruno Walter's stereo recording for Sony/Columbia is a lovely Pastoral.

I think he has some excellent mono recordings as well- the Pastoral was clearly a favorite of his.


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> ... I'm guessing that Chillam is into Chailly, whose 3rd I really enjoyed last week....


I do enjoy Chailly's Beethoven symphonies. Clean and high-tempo'd. My favourite 6th though is currently Dausgaard and the Swedish Chamber Orchestra. It took me a while to get into the "Pastoral" listening to Harnoncourt and Karajan, but Dausgaard/SCO has a very light touch which turned me round. Ádám Fischer and the Danish Chamber Orchestra is a fine version too.


----------



## Chilham

These guys nail the Emperor concerto IMHO:


----------



## Mandryka

new but obsessed said:


> Ah, the Pastoral! It wasn't the first of Beethoven's symphonies that I heard, for sure. But upon hearing it for the first time I immediately knew it would be my favorite. And it still is. I think it just jives with my love for the outdoors. The ultimate pre-hike and post-hike car-tune! (Though my brother may have found it odd when we were out on a recent hike).
> 
> Glad to say that I was able to drag my non-classical friend to a random performance of the Pastoral when I was visiting her in Phoenix AZ a couple weekends ago. The Phoenix Symphony isn't quite the first choice to first hear this piece of music live, but for $20, I'll take it as my first live symphonic performance since 2019!
> 
> Comparing it to the Klemperer/Philharmonia recording I'm listening to it now. The Klemperer version is maybe among the slowest renditions I've heard. I love it. Phoenix's certainly was played at a faster pace than this recording.
> 
> To-date I've only listened to the Karajan, Barenboim, and now Klemperer versions of the 6th. Do folks have other favorites/preferred? I'm guessing that Chillam is into Chailly, whose 3rd I really enjoyed last week. I also have Bernstein's collection, and I just enjoyed his 5th for this week's journey.


The 6th I like the most are Pfitzner’s with the Berlin State Opera Orchestra, and Mengelberg’s live performance released on Tahra (Archives Inédites Vol III) The Pfitzner is wonderfully understated and poised, an antidote to Furtwangler. The Mengelberg has an unforgettable freshness and liveliness about it. 

Gould’s performance of the Liszt transcription is well worth hearing I think.


----------



## new but obsessed

Thanks, folks! Added those to my library for some future listening. Finishing up String Quartet 7, queued up some Fidelio highlights, and hoping to make it through the end of Level 3 works this week


----------



## Chilham

Like most n00bs, I came to try to develop a more serious appreciation of classical music off the back of classical "favourites", which inevitably included the fourth movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony. My expectation for Beethoven's vocal music was therefore understandably high. Over the past two years I've experienced a growing disappointment. Fidelio grated. Missa Solemnis passed me by pretty quickly. The Choral Fantasy hardly registered. Sure, An Die Ferne Geliebte is pretty but the rest hardly registered with me. 

Then, a couple of weeks ago, someone here posted a YouTube link to what I found to be a most enjoyable version of Missa Solemnis (Thielemann, Stoyanova, Garanča, Schade, Selig, Staatskapelle Dresden) and this afternoon I listened to this:










Beethoven: Leonore Op. 72a

Jacobs, Freiburger Barockorchester

Outstanding! There's hope for me yet!


----------



## Mandryka

If you approach the music at the level of "do I like this?" then how well it works for you depends on _you _at least as much as the performance. You have to be fortunate enough to find the music, to let it catch you, when you're ready and open to it. All aesthetic activity is like this.


----------



## hammeredklavier

The Bratislava Wind Octet plays J. N. Hummel: Partita in Es


----------



## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> Fidelio grated.


were there any numbers you found memorable?


----------



## Mandryka

The only sung bit I really like of Fidelio is _Gott! Welch Dunkel hier! _and _In des Lebens Frühlingstagen. _Those two always make me think of Handel's _Total eclipse. _The overtures are nice, but you tend to hear them too often in performance, there's a tradition of playing Leonora 3 in Act 2 and it's kind of one trumpet call too many for me, though I've enjoyed seeing it treated as dance music. I personally can do without ever hearing the prisoners' chorus ever again, heroic Beethoven -- yuck! I guess I could hold my nose if someone else was paying for the seat in the dress circle.


----------



## Mandryka

Xisten267 said:


> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Egmont Overture


Egmont, not just the overture but the whole thing, is a fun bit of music. If you can find Scherchen's recording you won't be sorry to give it a bit of attention. Here it is, just found it, but the transfer is terrible

Beethoven: Egmont (complete), Hermann Scherchen, Vienna 1953 - YouTube

It's absolutely perfectly transferred here

Hermann Scherchen conducts Beethoven - Tahra: WEST3009/3010 - download | Presto Music


----------



## Chilham

hammeredklavier said:


> were there any numbers you found memorable?...


Not in a good way, no.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Egmont, not just the overture but the whole thing, is a fun bit of music....


I listened to the Leonore and Coriolan overtures this afternoon and Ruins of Athens and Egmont all the way through. It's the most memorable for me.


----------



## Mandryka

Actually I just used the list to listen to something I haven’t heard in like, 30 years. Some Sor etudes. I remember having a recording with Segovia playing, but for no good reason I just plumped for another old timer, Narciso Yepes. I must say, I was really impressed by Yepes this evening, there’s something really objective about his way of playing which appeals to me this evening. I remember his trademark was the Rodriguez concerto - I don’t know if I’ve ever heard it.

As far as Sor’s music is concerned, I honestly can’t see what the fuss is about. I mean, it may be more interesting to play than to hear.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> Actually I just used the list to listen to something I haven’t heard in like, 30 years. Some Sor etudes. I remember having a recording with Segovia playing, but for no good reason I just plumped for another old timer, Narciso Yepes. I must say, I was really impressed by Yepes this evening, there’s something really objective about his way of playing which appeals to me this evening. I remember his trademark was the Rodriguez concerto - I don’t know if I’ve ever heard it.
> 
> As far as Sor’s music is concerned, I honestly can’t see what the fuss is about. I mean, it may be more interesting to play than to hear.


Once at a recital I saw (and heard) Segovia play Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez. I have never felt the desire to hear it again. So it may be a classical example of music which is more interesting to play than to listen to.


----------



## Chilham

Are you bored with Beethoven yet? No, me neither.

Coming at you a day early again this week as I've some commitments tomorrow. Beethoven's works 1812-1827, plus works of composers born 1784-1794.

*Level 1*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: *Symphony No. 9 "Choral"*

*Level 2*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: *Symphony No. 7*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartet No. 14

*Level 3*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartet No. 13 & *Große Fuge*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartet no. 15
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Missa Solemnis
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 32
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Trio No. 7 "Archduke"
*Weber, Carl Maria von*: Der Freischütz
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 29 "Hammerklavier"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 30
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No. 8

*Level 4*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartet No. 16
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartet No. 12
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 31
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Diabelli Variations
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 26 "Les Adieux"
Weber, Carl Maria von: Clarinet Concerto No. 1
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Cello Sonata No. 4
Weber, Carl Maria von: Clarinet Concerto No. 2
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Cello Sonata No. 5
Beethoven, Ludwig van: An die ferne Geliebte
Weber, Carl Maria von: Oberon

*Level 5*
Weber, Carl Maria von: Konzertstück
Weber, Carl Maria von: Euryanthe
Rossini, Gioachino: Petite Messe Solennelle
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 27
Weber, Carl Maria von: Invitation to the Dance
Spohr, Louis: Violin Concerto No. 8 "In Modo di Scena Cantante"
Rossini, Gioachino: Stabat Mater
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 10

*Level 6*
Weber, Carl Maria von: Clarinet Quintet Op. 34
Beethoven, Ludwig van: *Piano Sonata No. 28*
Weber, Carl Maria von: Grand Duo Concertant
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Zum Namensfeier Overture
*Spohr, Louis*: Symphony No. 6 "Historical"
Spohr, Louis: Clarinet Concerto No. 1

*Level 7*
Weber, Carl Maria von: Basoon Concerto
*Voříšek, Jan Václav Hugo*: Symphony in D

*Honourable Mentions:*
Hérold, Ferdinand: La Fille Mal Gardée
Schneitzhoeffer, Jean-Madeleine: La Sylphide
*Kuhlau, Friedrich*: Elverhøj
Gruber, Franz Xavier: Stile Nacht
Szymanowska, Maria: Nocturne in B-Flat Major
Payne, John Howard: Clari, or the Maid of Milan
Meyerbeer, Giacomo: Les Patineurs
Mohr, Joseph: Stille Nacht
Moscheles, Ignaz: Marche d'Alexandre


I have the excellent Ádám Fischer symphony cycle, the Takács' string quartets, and Levit's late piano sonatas lined-up for this week, am trying to resist purchasing the Honeck/Pittsburgh live 9th, and am looking forward to re listening to a couple of pieces I first heard last year and very much enjoyed including:











Voříšek, Jan Václav Hugo: Symphony in D

Mackerras, Scottish Chamber Orchestra


----------



## hammeredklavier

Spohr: Septet, Op. 147 - 1. Allegro vivace


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> *Große Fuge*
> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Missa Solemnis
> Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 29 "Hammerklavier"


There are some very divisive things in here -- music which seems to take music to its limits and for many people, music which goes too far. My own attention recently has been on the Missa Solemnis. I think of it now as a sort of jolt, a battering ram which throws the open listener into places in his unconscious, possibly uncomfortable places. I found myself mentioning Antonin Artaud's concept of Theatre of Cruelty a few days ago -- well, I think a good performance of Missa Solemnis exemplifies Artaud's idea. Hence, many, most people can't handle it.


----------



## Chilham

The are some very delightful things in here too!


----------



## Chilham

Wrapping-up composers born at the end of the Eighteenth Century this week, dominated of course by Franz Schubert. I've been a little indifferent to his music previously. Let's see if this week can bring a better appreciation.

*Level 1*
*Schubert, Franz*: *Piano Quintet "Trout"*

*









Level 2*
Schubert, Franz: *Symphony No. 8 "Unfinished"*
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No. 9 "Great"










Schubert, Franz: Winterreise










Schubert, Franz: *String Quintet D. 956*










Schubert, Franz: *String Quartet No. 14 D. 810 "Death & the Maiden"*

*









Level 3*
Schubert, Franz: Die Schöne Müllerin
Schubert, Franz: Piano Sonata D.960
Schubert, Franz: Impromptus D 899/D. 935
Schubert, Franz: Piano Trio No. 2
Schubert, Franz: Gretchen at the Spinning Wheel
Schubert, Franz: Goethe Lieder esp. Der Erlkönig, Wanderers Nachtlied I, Ganymed, Geheimes, Der Musensohn, Willkommen und Abschied

*Level 4*
Schubert, Franz: *Symphony No. 5*
Schubert, Franz: Piano Trio No. 1
Schubert, Franz: Schwanengesang
Schubert, Franz: Piano Sonata D. 959
Schubert, Franz: String Quartet No. 13 D. 804 "Rosamunde"
Schubert, Franz: Fantasy in C "Wanderer"
Schubert, Franz: Sonata for Arpeggione and Piano D. 821
Schubert, Franz: Piano Sonata D.958
Schubert, Franz: String Quartet No. 15 D. 887
Schubert, Franz : Octet
Schubert, Franz : *Ellens Gesang III (Ave Maria!) Op. 52, No. 6, D.839*

*Level 5*
Schubert, Franz: Fantasy in F Minor
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No. 4
Schubert, Franz: Die Forelle "The Trout"
Schubert, Franz: Piano Sonata No. 14 D.784
Schubert, Franz: Du bist die Ruh, D. 776
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No. 6 "Little"
Schubert, Franz: Rosamunde Overture
Schubert, Franz: Mass No. 6
*Berwald, Franz*: Symphony No. 3 "Singulière"
Schubert, Franz: Moments Musicaux
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No. 2
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No. 1

*Level 6*
Schubert, Franz: Piano Sonata No. 13 "Little" D 664
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No. 3
Schubert, Franz: An die Musik
Schubert, Franz: Mass No. 5
Schubert, Franz: Piano Sonata No. 17 D.850
Schubert, Franz: Sonata for Piano Duet "Grand Duo" D. 812
Schubert, Franz: Piano Sonata No. 18 D.894
Schubert, Franz; Nacht und Träume D 827
Schubert, Franz: Fantasy for Violin and Piano D. 934
Schubert, Franz: An Sylvia D. 891
*Halévy, Fromental*: La Juive

*Level 7*
Schubert, Franz: Notturno Op. 148
Schubert, Franz: Adagio in E-flat Major "Notturno"
Schubert, Franz: Der Tod und das Mädchen D 531
Schubert, Franz: Mass No. 2
Schubert, Franz: Auf dem Wasser zu singen D 774
Schubert, Franz: Der Hirt auf dem Felsen D.965
Schubert, Franz: The Shepherd on the Rock
Schubert, Franz: Heidenröslein D.257
Marschner, Heinich: Der Vampyr

*Honourable Mentions:*
*Loewe, Carl*: Erkönig
Pearsall, Robert de: Lay a Garland


----------



## pianozach

You may as well have had a "Schubert round".

I've never heard any *Schubert* I didn't like. 

I find that I'm always surprised when I hear the aggressive side of Schubert. In my mind I always seem to pigeonhole him as a pastoral composer, but then I run across some epic sound from him.

The *Piano Sonata no. 21 in B-flat major, D. 960**, 1st mvt*. is in my repertoire for extended pre-wedding-ceremony music (you've placed it in level 3, probably a fair ranking). For all the times I've played it, I don't think anyone has ever recognized it.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Charles Mayer Chanson sentimentale




Nocturne sentimentale




Valse-Etude mélancolique




Ignaz Moscheles - Selected Works for Piano


----------



## Chilham

Moscheles got an honourable mention last week. 

Never come across Mayer before now. Seems like few have as he doesn't get a page in our Composer Guestbook as far as I can see.


----------



## Chilham

pianozach said:


> ...I've never heard any *Schubert* I didn't like....


I'm enjoying this week. For me, Death and the Maiden and the String Quintet in C are better and more enjoyable pieces that Trout, despite its familiarity and good though it is. The Octet deserves a higher ranking for me too, and perhaps Schubert's masses, which I've enjoyed.

The symphonies struggle to hold my attention and I can take or leave the piano sonatas. That's just me.


----------



## Mandryka

What do you think of Nacht und Träume?

A few months ago I listened to Hotter sing Winterreise -- the recording with Moore. Just amazing singing and music I think, "deeply felt" and dark. I should try and listen to his earlier recordings. In the 1980s you could buy £10 tickets for seats in the amphi at the Opera House if you queued on the day of the performance, and at the time I was working in Long Acre so I used to do it quite often. As you can imagine, you would meet some real characters in the queue, and I remember once striking up a conversation with some guy who came over here as a ref from the Hitler, and he was in raptures about Hotter's various Winterreise, saying how the last one especially was somehow imbued with a post war sense of despair, the feeling which was everywhere that the War had in some sense undermined the culture which had things like Winterreise at its apogee.

I think it's unfair to tar all Schubert's symphonies with the same brush. In particular I think the Unfinished is a real major piece of music. I have loved it ever since I was about 10 -- I think it was the first piece of classical music I really responded to.


----------



## Mandryka

svc, bdzsmkbvszvm,k bdxsvm,k d xsbv,kmxsd vxsdz,kbv


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> What do you think of Nacht und Träume? ...


I've only listened to the arrangement for cello so far. Bostridge lined-up for tomorrow along with other lieder.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> I've only listened to the arrangement for cello so far. Bostridge lined-up for tomorrow along with other lieder.


Ah well, you're in for a treat. Bostridge is good with words, I heard him sing Schubert in a concert in New College Oxford once, he'd just been discovered and the word on the street was that he was exceptional, in the Peter Pears tradition. It was an unforgettable concert really.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> ... I think it's unfair to tar all Schubert's symphonies with the same brush. In particular I think the Unfinished is a real major piece of music. I have loved it ever since I was about 10 -- I think it was the first piece of classical music I really responded to.


True. I've only listened to 8 and 9 so far this week. It says more about me and perhaps my focus on Saturday when I listened, than it does about the symphonies themselves.


----------



## Kreisler jr

The Unfinished is, well, unfinished and the "Great" is a rather divisive piece that is frequently found both among people's absolutely favorite symphonies and among "sacred cows" whose popularity is hard to fathom.
As for the "Trout", I think there is largely consensus that while a charming piece, it is not quite up there with the last three quartets, string quintet, late piano music and trios.


----------



## Mandryka

Listening right now to the Hotter/Raucheisen 1942 Winterreise. Full of interventions, expressive interventions from the singer. Some would no doubt say "mannered". Is that what lieder singing is about? 

Sound is good -- M&A.


----------



## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> The Unfinished is, well, unfinished


How do you know it's unfinished, rather than a 2 movement symphony?

(I expect there's a good answer, I just don't know what it is!)


----------



## Kreisler jr

There is an extended sketch of the scherzo of the b minor and a two movement symphony was unthinkable for Schubert who doggedly stuck to traditional forms (unlike late Beethoven), even most of his "Fantasies" are quite sonata-like. And even a hypothetical 2-movement b minor symphony could not have ended in E major in the 1820s, it had to be b minor or B major (like Beethoven's last sonata c minor -> C major) The idea that Schubert's b minor or Bruckner's 9th are "perfect in their fragmentary form" is a 20th century confabulation. (For the belated premiere of the b minor in the 1860s they played the finale from the 3rd symphony to achieve a sense of closure, D major being close to b minor.) I am not sure but the first composer who ended symphonies (or similar multi-movement works) away from home key or parallel might have been Mahler!
Nothing against fragments, I agree that the Schubert b minor (and Reliquie) as well as Bruckner's 9th deserve their fame, but one should still be aware of their fragmentary character.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Christoph Kessler (the dedicatee of Chopin Op.28)


----------



## Mandryka




----------



## Mandryka

hammeredklavier said:


> Christoph Kessler (the dedicatee of Chopin Op.28)


The preludes are interesting, improvisatory -- I can't help feel that Chopin op 28 are as inspired by baroque preludes as much as Kessler's -- but that's just a not very well thought about response based on superficial listening. 

Those youtube performances by Colombo are really uninspiring I think -- there's a CD by Magdalena Brzozowska.


----------



## Mandryka

az;l'cmks;vmkxsl;vmxdl; vmxdl;v dxvn


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> ...Those youtube performances by Colombo are really uninspiring I think...


Computer generated, as I discovered earlier in this thread.


----------



## Chilham

Coming at you two-days early this week! It's an extended holiday weekend in the UK to celebrate the Queen's 70th Jubilee and Mrs. Chilham and I are off to Stratford-upon-Avon for a short break.

Composers born 1800-1809 this week, dominated of course by Hector and Felix. Good to see our first female composer since Barbara Strozzi get a look-in. It looks like a lovely mix of music. I'm already familiar with much of Mendelssohn's work, and intend to really get to grips this week with Berlioz. Lots of Davis/LSO and Ticciati/SCO at the ready, but most importantly, I need to focus on Symphony Fantastique.

*Level 1*
*Berlioz, Hector*: *Symphonie Fantastique*



















*Level 2*
*Mendelssohn, Felix*: *Violin Concerto Op. 64* esp. III. Allegretto non troppo - Allegro molto vivace
Mendelssohn, Felix: *Symphony No. 4 "Italian"*
Mendelssohn, Felix: Midsummer Night's Dream esp. Wedding March, Scherzo
Mendelssohn, Felix: Hebrides Overture esp. "Fingal's Cave"

*Level 3*
Mendelssohn, Felix: *String Octet Op. 20* esp. I. Allegro moderato confuoco
Mendelssohn, Felix: *Symphony No. 3 "Scottish"*
Berlioz, Hector: Requiem "Grande Messe des Morts"
Mendelssohn, Felix: Piano Trio No. 1
Berlioz, Hector: Les Troyens
*Glinka, Mikhail*: Ruslan and Lyudmila esp. Overture
Berlioz, Hector: La Damnation de Faust Op. 24 esp. Marche Hongroise
Mendelssohn, Felix: Elijah

*Level 4*
Mendelssohn, Felix: Songs Without Words, Op. 19 esp. No. 1 Andante con moto in E Major
Berlioz, Hector: Harold en Italie
Berlioz, Hector: Les Nuits d'été
Berlioz, Hector: Roméo et Juliette
Berlioz, Hector: Le Carnaval Romain
Mendelssohn, Felix: Variations Sérieuses Op. 14
Berlioz, Hector: L’Enfance Du Christ

*Level 5*
Mendelssohn, Felix: Piano Concerto No. 1
Strauss, Johan I: Radetzky March
Adam, Adolphe: Giselle
Glinka, Mikhail: Kamarinskaya
Mendelssohn, Felix: Symphony No. 5 "Reformation"
Glinka, Mikhail: Ivan Susanin "A Life for The Tsar"
Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quartet No. 2
Berlioz, Hector: Te Deum
Mendelssohn, Felix: Piano Concerto No. 2
Berlioz, Hector: Le Corsaire
Berlioz, Hector: Béatrice et Bénédict

*Level 6*
Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quartet No. 1
Berlioz, Hector: Benvenuto Cellini
*Mendelssohn, Fanny*: *String Quartet in E-flat Major*
Mendelssohn, Felix: Piano Trio No. 2 in E-flat major
*Farrenc, Louise*: Piano Quintet No. 1
Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quintet No. 2
Mendelssohn: Capriccioso Brilliant Op. 22
Berlioz, Hector: Symphony No. 4 "Symphonie Funèbre et Triomphale"
Mendelssohn, Felix: St Paul
Mendelssohn, Felix: Calm Seas and Prosperous Voyage Overture
Mendelssohn, Felix: Gesänge (6) Op. 34 esp. Auf Flügeln des Gesanges
Mendelssohn, Fanny: Piano Trio Op. 11

*Level 7 *
Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quartet No. 6
Farrenc, Louise: Piano Quintet No. 2
Farrenc, Louise: Nonet
Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quartet No. 4
Farrenc, Louise: Symphony no. 3 op. 36
Mendelssohn, Felix: Piano Quartet No. 1
Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quartet No. 3
Mendelssohn, Felix: Piano Quartet in C Minor
Farrenc, Louise: Symphony No. 1
Mendelssohn, Felix: Ruy Blas Overture
Farrenc, Louise: Trio for flute, cello and piano Op. 45
Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quartet No. 5
Mendelssohn, Felix: Psalm 42 Op. 42
*Reber, Napoléon-Henri*: Symphony No. 4 esp. i. Allegro
Lortzing, Albert: Undine

Honourable mentions:
Malibran, Maria: Prendi por me sei Libero & Rataplan
Loder, Edward: Nourjahad
Pacius, Fredrik: Kung Karls Jakt


----------



## Kreisler jr

Even two, Louise Farrenc and Fanny Mendelssohn! We had Fanny's only string quartet in the string quartet series last year and both the work and the commentaries there are worth checking out.


----------



## Chilham

Kreisler jr said:


> Even two, Louise Farrenc and Fanny Mendelssohn! We had Fanny's only string quartet in the string quartet series last year and both the work and the commentaries there are worth checking out.


Good call. I've linked the discussion above.


----------



## Mandryka

Here’s Frederick Rzewski playing some of Mendelssohn’s Songs without Words.


----------



## new but obsessed

I'm playing a bit of catch up on the Schubert week. But having listened to The Trout, Symphonies 8-9 and String Quintet D. 956, I was wondering: am I the only one who finds Schubert a little long-winded and scattershot?

I certainly find everything pleasant. But after weeks of quite rigorous and concise works by Mozart and Beethoven, who at least in my mind seem to really drill down deep into a melody or theme quite perfectly, it seems like lots of the level 1-2 Schubert works have had moments that divert quite oddly into sections that I don't find quite so interesting.

Again, everything sounds pleasant, I don't dislike this music. AND I know it's a bit unfair to compare anyone to Wolfie and ol' Ludwig van. But unlike much of the Classical and Romantic works I've heard and loved, this Schubert stuff just isn't as "sticky"/catchy in my head. I'm excepting Winterreise from this criticism as I've only listened to the first three numbers and they've been quite uniquely beautiful (just wish I understood the German!)

I'll wrap this week up with Death and the Maiden then hop onto Berlioz and Mendelssohn, for which I'm very excited

(Quite possibly I'm just riding out a few days of being sick at home and that's ruining my fun and focus)

EDIT: Like others here, Death and the Maiden might be my favorite of Schubert's top works thus far. All these level 1-2 works have beauty and fire in them, but it all seems more coherent in Death and the Maiden.


----------



## Chilham

Feel better soon.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Friedrich Burgmüller - 18 Études, Op.109


----------



## pianozach

new but obsessed said:


> I'm playing a bit of catch up on the Schubert week. But having listened to The Trout, Symphonies 8-9 and String Quintet D. 956, I was wondering: am I the only one who finds Schubert a little long-winded and scattershot?
> 
> I certainly find everything pleasant. But after weeks of quite rigorous and concise works by Mozart and Beethoven, who at least in my mind seem to really drill down deep into a melody or theme quite perfectly, it seems like lots of the level 1-2 Schubert works have had moments that divert quite oddly into sections that I don't find quite so interesting.
> 
> Again, everything sounds pleasant, I don't dislike this music. AND I know it's a bit unfair to compare anyone to Wolfie and ol' Ludwig van. But unlike much of the Classical and Romantic works I've heard and loved, this Schubert stuff just isn't as "sticky"/catchy in my head. I'm excepting Winterreise from this criticism as I've only listened to the first three numbers and they've been quite uniquely beautiful (just wish I understood the German!)
> 
> I'll wrap this week up with Death and the Maiden then hop onto Berlioz and Mendelssohn, for which I'm very excited
> 
> (Quite possibly I'm just riding out a few days of being sick at home and that's ruining my fun and focus)
> 
> EDIT: Like others here, Death and the Maiden might be my favorite of Schubert's top works thus far. All these level 1-2 works have beauty and fire in them, but it all seems more coherent in Death and the Maiden.


You're not wrong. Schubert did like to write in a style where the development of the piece happens gradually (and, maybe, endlessly). Brahms is similar in many ways . . . very complex, very nuanced, very lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng. 

If you want radio-friendly short pieces, delve into *Schubert*'s *leider*. Most are short, and get to the point quickly.


----------



## Kreisler jr

pianozach said:


> You're not wrong. Schubert did like to write in a style where the development of the piece happens gradually (and, maybe, endlessly). Brahms is similar in many ways . . . very complex, very nuanced, very lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng.


With very few exceptions (first Sextet, early B major trio, A major piano quartet) Brahms is quite different from Schubert; very far from the broad and "loose" way of Schubert, far less melodic, almost never as long and usually much more dense and terse. Brahms also continues the expansion of development over all parts of a movement whereas Schubert often just expands his melodies with little development.

In any case, it can help to listen to recordings of Schubert's very long late works that skip repeats and don't exaggerate the broadness by taking slowish tempi.


----------



## pianozach

Kreisler jr said:


> With very few exceptions (first Sextet, early B major trio, A major piano quartet) Brahms is quite different from Schubert; very far from the broad and "loose" way of Schubert, far less melodic, almost never as long and usually much more dense and terse. Brahms also continues the expansion of development over all parts of a movement whereas Schubert often just expands his melodies with little development.
> 
> In any case, it can help to listen to recordings of Schubert's very long late works that skip repeats and don't exaggerate the broadness by taking slowish tempi.


Thanks for the comment.

Yeah, I *like* Schubert and Brahms, but don't exactly *love* them either. There's some pieces from both which I've played on piano, and I do love PLAYING them, but . . . . 

I view my own comment with great suspicion: Schubert died before Brahms was even born. The genres in which they composed were decades apart.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Mikhail Glinka - Symphony on Two Russian Themes in D minor




Mikhail Glinka - Nocturne in F minor "La separation"


----------



## Mandryka

pianozach said:


> You're not wrong. Schubert did like to write in a style where the development of the piece happens gradually (and, maybe, endlessly). Brahms is similar in many ways . . . very complex, very nuanced, very lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng.
> 
> If you want radio-friendly short pieces, delve into *Schubert*'s *leider*. Most are short, and get to the point quickly.


There's heaps and heaps of short instrumental music by Schubert. Why only the other day I was enjoying this 

Eduard Erdmann plays Schubert Sonata D664 (1/3) - YouTube


----------



## Kreisler jr

pianozach said:


> Yeah, I *like* Schubert and Brahms, but don't exactly *love* them either. There's some pieces from both which I've played on piano, and I do love PLAYING them, but . . . .
> 
> I view my own comment with great suspicion: Schubert died before Brahms was even born. The genres in which they composed were decades apart.


I do think that there is some Schubertian influence on Brahms who certainly appreciated a lot of Schubert's music (I think he called one of the "Suleika" songs (to the East/West wind, don't remember which one) the most beautiful song of all), but comparatively restricted and rarely in the "expansiveness". As a relative beginner I tended to find Brahms too dense and unmelodic and some Schubert too long and "eventless".

The great short instrumental pieces by Schubert are Moments musicaux, Klavierstücke etc.


----------



## new but obsessed

Kreisler jr said:


> As a relative beginner I tended to find Brahms too dense and unmelodic and some Schubert too long and "eventless".


You wrote this in a past tense which suggests to me that you've since graduated into thinking differently about the works of Brahms and Schubert. If so, are you able to identify what "clicked" for you finally? I think I'm sort of in your olden neophyte shoes and left scratching my head about Schubert. And, unlike pianozach (and likely many others here), at a disadvantage since I've never properly played a musical instrument so have no performative entrance into this music.


----------



## Kreisler jr

Yes, that was 30 years ago and I love most of Brahms and Schubert. And to be fair, I liked quite a bit almost immediately at about 17, if not quite as much as Beethoven or Mozart. E.g. I loved the "Unfinished" right away, and probably Death & maiden as well (but this might have been a year or two later). The famous piece I was disappointed with, was the "Great C major" and I still think it is a piece that can be tiring or boring in some interpretations.

As already said, Schubert wrote 100s of lieder and a bunch of shortish piano pieces that might help to get used to some aspects of his style. Even Winterreise, Die schoene Muellerin and a few dozen of the best know and most frequently anthologized lieder should keep you busy for a while. If you like choral music, check out "Gesang der Geister über den Wassern", a truly magical piece.
The late music has to be taken on its own terms. It is not Beethoven (although Beethoven looms large in a few works like the Death&Maiden, the trios and the c minor piano sonata). The breadth, the relative looseness, the focus on melody (with some important exceptions) are very different. Schubert often also tends to put things side by side rather than "develop", take the sharp contrasts of the middle sections in the slow movements of the string quintet or the sonata D 959.

I'd focus on a small number of works that have at least some immediate appeal and listen repeatedly. Or put it aside for a while. Nowadays late Schubert is as revered as late Beethoven by some listeners but it was not always like that. Even in the mid-20th century the piano sonatas were kind of niche repertoire.


----------



## new but obsessed

Kreisler jr said:


> Schubert often also tends to put things side by side rather than "develop",


I think that encapsulates my impression quite closely. Thank you for helping me work through that!

As I said prior, there's nothing about Schubert that I flat out dislike. The music is more passionate and fiery than I expected out of the gate, and reliably so throughout the levels 1-2 works (wish I had time for more pieces these past few weeks!). But certainly felt I was _missing_ something key to his style. So I really appreciate this discussion.


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## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Coming at you two-days early this week! It's an extended holiday weekend in the UK to celebrate the Queen's 70th Jubilee and Mrs. Chilham and I are off to Stratford-upon-Avon for a short break.
> 
> Composers born 1800-1809 this week, dominated of course by Hector and Felix. Good to see our first female composer since Barbara Strozzi get a look-in. It looks like a lovely mix of music. I'm already familiar with much of Mendelssohn's work, and intend to really get to grips this week with Berlioz. Lots of Davis/LSO and Ticciati/SCO at the ready, but most importantly, I need to focus on Symphony Fantastique.
> 
> *Level 1*
> *Berlioz, Hector*: *Symphonie Fantastique*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Level 2*
> *Mendelssohn, Felix*: *Violin Concerto Op. 64* esp. III. Allegretto non troppo - Allegro molto vivace
> Mendelssohn, Felix: *Symphony No. 4 "Italian"*
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Midsummer Night's Dream esp. Wedding March, Scherzo
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Hebrides Overture esp. "Fingal's Cave"
> 
> *Level 3*
> Mendelssohn, Felix: *String Octet Op. 20* esp. I. Allegro moderato confuoco
> Mendelssohn, Felix: *Symphony No. 3 "Scottish"*
> Berlioz, Hector: Requiem "Grande Messe des Morts"
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Piano Trio No. 1
> Berlioz, Hector: Les Troyens
> *Glinka, Mikhail*: Ruslan and Lyudmila esp. Overture
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Elijah
> 
> *Level 4*
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Songs Without Words, Op. 19 esp. No. 1 Andante con moto in E Major
> Berlioz, Hector: Harold en Italie
> Berlioz, Hector: La Damnation de Faust Op. 24 esp. Marche Hongroise
> Berlioz, Hector: Les Nuits d'été
> Berlioz, Hector: Roméo et Juliette
> Berlioz, Hector: Le Carnaval Romain
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Variations Sérieuses Op. 14
> Berlioz, Hector: L’Enfance Du Christ
> 
> *Level 5*
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Piano Concerto No. 1
> Strauss, Johan I: Radetzky March
> Adam, Adolphe: Giselle
> Glinka, Mikhail: Kamarinskaya
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Symphony No. 5 "Reformation"
> Glinka, Mikhail: Ivan Susanin "A Life for The Tsar"
> Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quartet No. 2
> Berlioz, Hector: Te Deum
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Piano Concerto No. 2
> Berlioz, Hector: Le Corsaire
> Berlioz, Hector: Béatrice et Bénédict
> 
> *Level 6*
> Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quartet No. 1
> Berlioz, Hector: Benvenuto Cellini
> *Mendelssohn, Fanny*: *String Quartet in E-flat Major*
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Piano Trio No. 2 in E-flat major
> *Farrenc, Louise*: Piano Quintet No. 1
> Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quintet No. 2
> Berlioz, Hector: Symphony No. 4 "Symphonie ie Funèbre et Triomphale"
> Mendelssohn, Felix: St Paul
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Gesänge (6) Op. 34 esp. Auf Flügeln des Gesanges
> Mendelssohn, Fanny: Piano Trio Op. 11
> 
> *Level 7 *
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Ruy Blas Overture
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Calm Seas and Prosperous Voyage Overture
> Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quartet No. 6
> Farrenc, Louise: Piano Quintet No. 2
> Farrenc, Louise: Nonet
> Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quartet No. 4
> Farrenc, Louise: Symphony no. 3 op. 36
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Piano Quartet No. 1
> Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quartet No. 3
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Piano Quartet in C Minor
> Farrenc, Louise: Symphony No. 1
> Farrenc, Louise: Trio for flute, cello and piano Op. 45
> Mendelssohn, Felix: String Quartet No. 5
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Gesänge (6) Op.34 esp. No. 2 Auf Flügeln des Gesanges
> Mendelssohn, Felix: Psalm 42 Op. 42
> *Reber, Napoléon-Henri*: Symphony No. 4 esp. i. Allegro
> Lortzing, Albert: Undine
> 
> Honourable mentions:
> Malibran, Maria: Prendi por me sei Libero & Rataplan
> Loder, Edward: Nourjahad
> Pacius, Fredrik: Kung Karls Jakt


I think you should listen to the Mendelssohn piano trio. His octet is a great favourite of mine, but doesn’t seem to be in the list for some reason.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> I think you should listen to the Mendelssohn piano trio. His octet is a great favourite of mine, but doesn’t seem to be in the list for some reason.


Oh yes. Mendelssohn's Piano Trios are how I got into classical music beyond the "popular" classics. I have no recollection of when or why I bought the Ma/Perlman/Ax Piano Trios album, but when I was challenged on Facebook a couple of years ago to list my ten favourite albums of all time, I checked my iTunes listings and discovered that it was, by far, my most played album. That discovery was what bought me here, to learn more about classical music. I listened to Piano Trio No. 1 this morning.

I'm listening to the Emerson's Octet right now. It's right there at the top of Level 3.


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> I do think that there is some Schubertian influence on Brahms who certainly appreciated a lot of Schubert's music





hammeredklavier said:


> the use of the common tone diminished 7th chord ( I -> CTº7 -> I ) in the opening of Op.90 does sound like Brahms' homage to Schubert.


----------



## new but obsessed

I think this Italian Symph No 4. by F. Mendelssohn is an easy new fave. So awesome. Really liking his stuff!

And based on Mandryka and Chillam's suggestions I've added the piano trios to my queue too.


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## Xisten267

new but obsessed said:


> I think this Italian Symph No 4. by F. Mendelssohn is an easy new fave. So awesome. Really liking his stuff!
> 
> And based on Mandryka and Chillam's suggestions I've added the piano trios to my queue too.


The oratorio _Elijah_, the Violin Concerto, the symphonies nos. 2 (_Lobgesang_) and 3 (_Scottish_), the string quintet no. 2 and the last string quartet are all among his best works in my humble opinion, and I do recommend them to you if, like me, you enjoy his style (I love Mendelssohn).

Here are some of my favorite performances of his music: 
















By the way, symphonies nos. 2 and 3 were actually written _after_ the _Italian_ (no. 4). The chronological order of completion of his symphonies is: 1, 5, 4, 2, then 3.


----------



## Mandryka

Nice bit of Mendelssohn in one of the great 20th century films.


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## Kreisler jr

I find "Lobgesang" not entirely successful. He should have split this into a real instrumental symphony and a more compact cantata without such a long instrumental "prelude". I wouldn't recommend this for getting to know the composer. OTOH it is shorter than Elija and St. Paul...  and choral works are a major part of Mendelssohn's oeuvre.

The reason for the messed up numbering is that Mendelssohn was not happy with the "Reformation", so it was published only posthumously and that he revised the #4, thus having the final version (AFAIK not considerably different) published later.


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## Xisten267

Kreisler jr said:


> I find "Lobgesang" not entirely successful. He should have split this into a real instrumental symphony and a more compact cantata without such a long instrumental "prelude". I wouldn't recommend this for getting to know the composer.


I respectfully disagree. In the hands of a competent maestro, _Lobgesang_ becomes one of the finest choral symphonies of the Romantic era in my opinion. I think that not only the orchestral movements are quite good, but that the cantata part also has remarkable moments (my favorite is part V, the soprano duet). Sure, it's a long and idiosyncratic work for it's time, but I don't know why anyone who can delve into Bruckner or Mahler should avoid it. I think that it's a good introduction to Mendelssohn, particularly to his mature style with orchestral and sacred choral works.


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## Kreisler jr

Note that my criticism didn't really concern the quality of the music but that the whole thing doesn't seem to fit together so well.
The competition for choral symphonies is not particularly strong, so I could even agree with that statement. I have never heard it live, admittedly, (and I think most choral/orchestral music is far more impressive in the hall/church than on records) but it's a piece I want to like more but the last time I listened to it, I was not impressed.


----------



## Xisten267

^
I just listened to the _Lobgesang_ again, in the same performance I suggested earlier in the thread (Abbado/LSO). I still get goosebumps from it; to me at least there's nothing wrong with it.


----------



## new but obsessed

Getting through the levels 1-3 this week. Reactions: Mendelssohn is flat out amazing. Love his stuff. On the other hand... Berlioz has been pretty boring! Symphonie fantastique is good -- I appreciate its status as proto-psychedelia. But I couldn't get through The Requiem and I'm struggling with excerpts from Les Troyens. 

Am I missing something with Berlioz?


----------



## Kreisler jr

Try Romeo and Juliet (at least the common instrumental excerpts, esp. the "Mab" scherzo and Love Scene) and Faust (although here you need to listen to the whole thing because the "bonbons" from this, like the Rakoczy march and the will'o wisps menuet are hardly representative of the whole). But I have to admit that I never really got into Berlioz sacred music (I also find the Requiem overblown AND boring) or his operas.


----------



## Mandryka

new but obsessed said:


> Getting through the levels 1-3 this week. Reactions: Mendelssohn is flat out amazing. Love his stuff. On the other hand... Berlioz has been pretty boring! Symphonie fantastique is good -- I appreciate its status as proto-psychedelia. But I couldn't get through The Requiem and I'm struggling with excerpts from Les Troyens.
> 
> Am I missing something with Berlioz?


In the Trojans, don't you like Nuits d'ivresse? Or the intro to Act 4 -- storm and hunt?

What about Nuits d'ete?

In the opera house, Benvenuto Cellini is an agreeable way to spend an evening, this sort of thing

Berlioz: Benvenuto Cellini | Carnival scene (excerpt) | Opéra Royal, Palace of Versailles - YouTube


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> Getting through the levels 1-3 this week. Reactions: Mendelssohn is flat out amazing. Love his stuff. On the other hand... Berlioz has been pretty boring! Symphonie fantastique is good -- I appreciate its status as proto-psychedelia. But I couldn't get through The Requiem and I'm struggling with excerpts from Les Troyens.
> 
> Am I missing something with Berlioz?


I'm with you on this. I very much enjoyed Fantastique, La Damnation de Faust and the Scène d'Amore from Roméo et Juliette, but the rest of Berlioz passed me by a little quickly.


----------



## Xisten267

Check this (sound is not good, but performance and music are superb IMO):






If you like it, I suggest listening to the entire _Te Deum_. Abbado is always a good bet for sacred music of the XIXth century in my opinion.


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## Chilham

Forgive me, I forgot to mention that I also listened to Te Deum on Sunday and enjoyed it.


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## Kreisler jr

new but obsessed said:


> Symphonie fantastique is good


You should at least try "Harold in Italy"; it's not as good (unfortunately, for me the best is the first half or so of the first mvmt. and it's downhill from there) but formally closest to the SF, i.e. following a rather conventional symphony scheme but with an recurring theme and programmatic content.


----------



## new but obsessed

Mandryka said:


> In the Trojans, don't you like Nuits d'ivresse? Or the intro to Act 4 -- storm and hunt?
> 
> What about Nuits d'ete?





Kreisler jr said:


> You should at least try "Harold in Italy";





Kreisler jr said:


> Try Romeo and Juliet (at least the common instrumental excerpts, esp. the "Mab" scherzo and Love Scene) and Faust (although here you need to listen to the whole thing because the "bonbons" from this, like the Rakoczy march and the will'o wisps menuet are hardly representative of the whole).


Thanks all for the recs! I tried Nuits d'ivresse and Storm and Hunt. The latter I preferred. But there might just be something about Berlioz that just doesn't jive with me. Happens, I guess. I'm trying to grasp at an explanation. But, for whatever reason listening to the excerpts from Les Troyens reminds me of Puccini, another composer whose operas I bafflingly I've walked away from a little underwhelmed. (Still trying to understand that one!)

Maybe I'll come back Berlioz one day and something new will click. Onwards! Looking forward to the next week!


----------



## Kreisler jr

I think there are reasons (and not mainly the demise of Grand Opera) that Berlioz is largely perceived as a 1-5 work composer and overall not nearly as popular as one should think. Even in France he is not much favored, the "Renaissance" on records in the 1960s/70s was mostly due to Colin Davis with Covent garden and other London forces. Even the French don't seem to care much about Berlioz but then the French are probably the nation who treat their great composers worst. If they were half as enthusiastic as the Brits or Scandinavians Lully and Magnard would be household names like Purcell and Elgar...


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> ... Onwards! Looking forward to the next week!


Then look no further! 1810 brought us two giants of classical music in Chopin and Schumann.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2 *
*Chopin, Frédéric*: Nocturnes esp. *No. 2 in E-flat Major*, No. 8 in D-flat major, No. 13 in C Minor
Chopin, Frederic: 24 Preludes, Op. 28 esp. *Raindrop' Prelude Op. 28 No. 15*










Chopin, Frédéric: Ballades esp. No. 1 Op 23, No. 4 Op. 52
*Schumann, Robert*: Dichterliebe










*Level 3*
Schumann, Robert: *Piano Concerto in A minor Op. 54*
Schumann, Robert: *Kinderszenen* Op. 15 esp. 12. Kind im Einschlummern
Schumann, Robert: Kreisleriana
Chopin, Frédéric: Waltzes esp. Minute Waltz










Schumann, Robert: Piano Quintet in E-Flat Major, Op. 44 esp. I. Allegro Brillante










Schumann, Robert: Symphony No. 3 "Rhenish"
Schumann, Robert: *Symphony No. 4*










Chopin, Frédéric: Mazurkas
Schumann, Robert: Carnaval










Chopin, Frédéric: Piano Concerto No.1 In E Minor, Op.11 esp. 2. Romance (Larghetto)
Schumann, Robert: Fantasie in C major Op. 17
Chopin, Frédéric: Piano Sonata No. 2 in B-flat minor, op. 35 "Marche funèbre"
Schumann, Robert: Symphony No. 2
Chopin, Frédéric: Piano Concerto No. 2 in F minor, Op. 21 esp. II. Larghetto
Chopin, Frédéric Polonaises esp. No. 3 in A major "Military" Op. 40, No. 6 in A flat major "Heroic" Op. 53, Fantasy in A-flat Major, Op. 61
Chopin, Frédéric: Études Op. 10 esp. No.1 in C Major "Waterfall", *No. 3, “Revolutionary Etude”*

*Level 4*
Schumann, Robert: Symphony No. 1 "Spring"
Chopin, Frédéric: Scherzo in B-flat Minor Op 31
Chopin, Frédéric: Piano Sonata No. 3 in B minor, Op.58
Chopin, Frédéric: Barcarolle
Schumann, Robert: Études Symphoniques
Schumann, Robert: Cello Concerto in A Minor
Schumann, Robert: Frauenliebe Und-Leben










*Level 5*
Schumann, Robert: Davidsbündlertãnze
Schumann, Robert: Piano Quartet in E-Flat Major, Op. 47 esp. III. Andante cantabile
Schumann, Robert: Eichendorff Liederkreis Op. 39 esp. "Monnacht", "Auf einer Burg"
Schumann, Robert: String Quartet in A Op. 41/3
Chopin, Frédéric: Cello Sonata in G Minor
Schumann, Robert: Papillons
Schumann, Robert: Myrthen Op. 25 esp. No. 1 Widmung, No. 3 Der Nussbaum, No. 7 Die Lotosblume, No. 24 Du bist wie eine Blume
Schumann, Robert: Fantasiestücke
Chopin, Frédéric: Impromptus
Schumann, Robert: Gedichte (12) Op. "Lieder von Justinus Kerner" Op. 35 esp. No. 5 Sehnsucht, No. 3 Wanderlied, No. 10 Stille Tränen

*Level 6*
Chopin, Frédéric: Fantaisie in F minor
Chopin, Frédéric: Études Op. 25
Chopin, Frédéric: Grande Polonaise Brilliante
Schumann, Robert: Piano Sonata No. 1 in F-sharp minor
Chopin, Frédéric: Berceuse Op.57
Schumann, Robert: Gesänge der Frühe (Songs of Dawn) Op. 133
Schumann, Robert: Faschingsschwank aus Wien
Schumann, Robert: Violin Concerto in D Minor
Schumann, Robert: String Quartet Op. 41/1
Schumann, Robert: Liederkreis (9) Op.24
Schumann, Robert: Piano Trio No. 1
Schumann, Robert: Das Paradies und Die Peri

*Level 7 *
Schumann, Robert: Humoreske Op. 20
Schumann, Robert: Overture, Scherzo and Finale Op.52
Schumann, Robert: Piano Sonata No. 2
Schumann, Robert: Arabeske Op. 18
Chopin, Frédéric: Piano Trio
Schumann, Robert: Adagio & Allegro, Op. 70 (Version for Cello & Piano)
Schumann, Robert: Toccata Op. 7
Schumann, Robert: Novelletten Op. 21
Schumann, Robert: Romanzen und Balladen, Vol.II Op.49 esp. No. 1 Die beiden Grenadiere

Honourable mentions:
David, Ferdianand: Lall-Roukh
Erkel, Ferenc: Bánk Bán
Wesley, Samuel: Thou Wilt Keep Him in Perfect Peace


Chopin, and to some extent Schumann, haven't ticked a lot of boxes for me up to now. I'm very much hoping that situation changes this week. Lots of Martha Argerich to ease my journey, together with some Andsnes, Hamelin, Biss, Hough, Ott, Perahia, Grosvenor, Pollini, and others.

Your collective knowledge, experience and advice on a definite weak-spot for me, as always, gratefully received.


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## Xisten267

This is relatively unknown but colorful, beautiful and uplifting in my opinion:








new but obsessed said:


> Thanks all for the recs! I tried Nuits d'ivresse and Storm and Hunt. The latter I preferred. But there might just be something about Berlioz that just doesn't jive with me. Happens, I guess. *I'm trying to grasp at an explanation.* But, for whatever reason listening to the excerpts from Les Troyens reminds me of Puccini, another composer whose operas I bafflingly I've walked away from a little underwhelmed. (Still trying to understand that one!)


Berlioz is very adventurous in his use of form, mixing different categories of classical music, exploring progressive internal formal designs and almost not using repeats in his works. In this sense, he is the opposite of Mendelssohn for example, who is more conservative and prefers to use the forms of the Classical period in his music. I believe that this makes the french less accessible than other composers of his era, but I'm still quite an enthusiast of his works: if at his worst Berlioz may sound excentric and maybe a bit affected, at his best moments (in works such as _Les Troyens_, the _Te Deum_ and _Les Nuits d'été_, for example) I think that his fresh originality, genius for use of the tone color and sincere romantic expressiveness truly blossom.


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## Kreisler jr

I'd suggest listening to the Chopin preludes as a whole. I'd also skip the Etudes op.10 in favor of op.25, ten times more music and poetry and less "studies". Also skip the A major polonaise, a fun but shallow piece, no way close to the A flat one. Note that "Polonaise-Fantaise" is not like the polonaises but more like a "tone poem", like the ballades and barcarole.
The best Schumann song cycle has only made level 5, op.39 Eichendorff settings, this would be my first rec for his lieder, even before Dichterliebe because the latter mainly works as a whole with most songs very short. In op.39 the separate pieces are fewer, the whole is shorter and not that dependent on cumulative effect.


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## new but obsessed

Xisten267 said:


> Berlioz is very adventurous in his use of form, mixing different categories of classical music, exploring progressive internal formal designs and almost not using repeats in his works. In this sense, he is the opposite of Mendelssohn for example, who is more conservative and prefers to use the forms of the Classical period in his music. I believe that this makes the french less accessible than other composers of his era, but I'm still quite an enthusiast of his works: if at his worst Berlioz may sound excentric and maybe a bit affected, at his best moments (in works such as _Les Troyens_, the _Te Deum_ and _Les Nuits d'été_, for example) I think that his fresh originality, genius for use of the tone color and sincere romantic expressiveness truly blossom.


Amazing. I think my appreciation of Mendelssohn has a lot to do with my _expectations_ for what this music can be. Indeed, if Berlioz is off to my ears, it is likely because I'm blind/deaf to the formal structures of the music. In my own life this is odd since I've long been drawn to unusual contemporary music (while I have never understood mainstream or "pop" music, I have long liked Jazz and experimental music and the artier edges of rock, etc). But delving into the early Romantic era, my ear is still quite undeveloped. As I expect will be the case with many artists we've covered and many yet to come, some I will love immediately, and others will take me a lot longer to get around to. Berlioz is probably in that latter camp.


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> Note that "Polonaise-Fantaise" is not like the polonaises but more like a "tone poem", like the ballades and barcarole


especially Fantaisie Op.49, which similarly has a slow (chorale) section in B.


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## Kreisler jr

new but obsessed said:


> Amazing. I think my appreciation of Mendelssohn has a lot to do with my _expectations_ for what this music can be. Indeed, if Berlioz is off to my ears, it is likely because I'm blind/deaf to the formal structures of the music.


But this seems an odd argument. If you think you are mostly ignorant to the structure (you probably are not as ignorant as you think...) the difference between the classicist Mendelssohn and the more "freewheeling" Berlioz should either hardly matter of be in favor of the latter...
It could be that you have internalized to some extent the typical classical (Mozart, Beethoven) forms and procedures and therefore Mendelssohn who keeps fairly close to them and also has maybe even more memorable melodies (because early romantic themes are often more melodic than the more "neutral" material, esp. of Beethoven and Haydn) so it feels "natural". OTOH Berlioz, e.g. in SF and Harold is not that far from the classical symphony. There is some freedom but mostly it's introduction+sonata movement, tripartite scherzo/dance/march, rondo, etc.


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## new but obsessed

Kreisler jr said:


> But this seems an odd argument. If you think you are mostly ignorant to the structure (you probably are not as ignorant as you think...) the difference between the classicist Mendelssohn and the more "freewheeling" Berlioz should either hardly matter of be in favor of the latter...
> It could be that you have internalized to some extent the typical classical (Mozart, Beethoven) forms and procedures and therefore Mendelssohn who keeps fairly close to them and also has maybe even more memorable melodies (because early romantic themes are often more melodic than the more "neutral" material, esp. of Beethoven and Haydn) so it feels "natural". OTOH Berlioz, e.g. in SF and Harold is not that far from the classical symphony. There is some freedom but mostly it's introduction+sonata movement, tripartite scherzo/dance/march, rondo, etc.


This is probably a better description of where I am in my understanding than what I wrote. Indeed. And I think especially true is the comment about Mendelssohn's "more memorable melodies". Certainly so. 

It could also just be the case that, seemingly randomly, some art clicks while other art doesn't. It might just be that Berlioz and I don't "click" and it may be beyond rationalization.


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## Chilham

Kreisler jr said:


> I'd suggest listening to the Chopin preludes as a whole. I'd also skip the Etudes op.10 in favor of op.25, ten times more music and poetry and less "studies". Also skip the A major polonaise, a fun but shallow piece, no way close to the A flat one. Note that "Polonaise-Fantaise" is not like the polonaises but more like a "tone poem", like the ballades and barcarole.
> The best Schumann song cycle has only made level 5, op.39 Eichendorff settings, this would be my first rec for his lieder, even before Dichterliebe because the latter mainly works as a whole with most songs very short. In op.39 the separate pieces are fewer, the whole is shorter and not that dependent on cumulative effect.


Well, it's started out positively. I listened to the Preludes all the way through by both Abduraimov and Argerich. I moved on to the Ballades (No. 4 is beautiful), and am now half way through the Nocturnes, each by a different pianist. All much more enjoyable than I'd anticipated.

I'll take your guidance and go for Op. 39 in the morning.


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## Kreisler jr

I hope that you will see the difference I wanted to get at when you have listened to both Dichterliebe and op.39. The former is "cyclic" in a much stronger way although it doesn't have such a concrete story like Schubert's "Schöne Müllerin". But this in a way "weakens" the individual songs. op.39 is only loosely unified by common romantic themes and the songs are all individual and complete but I think they are a bit more accessible.
As for Chopin, I think there is some benefit in the old style mixed recital discs. Although I can listen to all the scherzi or ballades in one setting, I rarely feel like listening to 50 min of waltzes or mazurkas...


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## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Then look no further! 1810 brought us two giants of classical music in Chopin and Schumann.
> 
> *Level 1*
> No works
> 
> *Level 2 *
> *Chopin, Frédéric*: Nocturnes esp. *No. 2 in E-flat Major*, No. 8 in D-flat major, No. 13 in C Minor
> Chopin, Frederic: 24 Preludes, Op. 28 esp. *Raindrop' Prelude Op. 28 No. 15*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chopin, Frédéric: Ballades esp. No. 1 Op 23, No. 4 Op. 52
> *Schumann, Robert*: Dichterliebe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Level 3*
> Schumann, Robert: *Piano Concerto in A minor Op. 54*
> Schumann, Robert: *Kinderszenen* Op. 15 esp. 12. Kind im Einschlummern
> Schumann, Robert: Kreisleriana
> Chopin, Frédéric: Waltzes esp. Minute Waltz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Schumann, Robert: Piano Quintet in E-Flat Major, Op. 44 esp. I. Allegro Brillante
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Schumann, Robert: Symphony No. 3 "Rhenish"
> Schumann, Robert: *Symphony No. 4*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chopin, Frédéric: Mazurkas
> Schumann, Robert: Carnaval
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chopin, Frédéric: Piano Concerto No.1 In E Minor, Op.11 esp. 2. Romance (Larghetto)
> Schumann, Robert: Fantasie in C major Op. 17
> Chopin, Frédéric: Piano Sonata No. 2 in B-flat minor, op. 35 "Marche funèbre"
> Schumann, Robert: Symphony No. 2
> Chopin, Frédéric: Piano Concerto No. 2 in F minor, Op. 21 esp. II. Larghetto
> Chopin, Frédéric Polonaises esp. No. 3 in A major "Military" Op. 40, No. 6 in A flat major "Heroic" Op. 53, Fantasy in A-flat Major, Op. 61
> Chopin, Frédéric: Études Op. 10 esp. No.1 in C Major "Waterfall", *No. 3, “Revolutionary Etude”*
> 
> *Level 4*
> Schumann, Robert: Symphony No. 1 "Spring"
> Chopin, Frédéric: Scherzo in B-flat Minor Op 31
> Chopin, Frédéric: Piano Sonata No. 3 in B minor, Op.58
> Chopin, Frédéric: Barcarolle
> Schumann, Robert: Études Symphoniques
> Schumann, Robert: Cello Concerto in A Minor
> Schumann, Robert: Frauenliebe Und-Leben
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Level 5*
> Schumann, Robert: Davidsbündlertãnze
> Schumann, Robert: Piano Quartet in E-Flat Major, Op. 47 esp. III. Andante cantabile
> Schumann, Robert: Eichendorff Liederkreis Op. 39 esp. "Monnacht", "Auf einer Burg"
> Schumann, Robert: String Quartet in A Op. 41/3
> Chopin, Frédéric: Cello Sonata in G Minor
> Schumann, Robert: Papillons
> Schumann, Robert: Myrthen Op. 25 esp. No. 1 Widmung, No. 3 Der Nussbaum, No. 7 Die Lotosblume, No. 24 Du bist wie eine Blume
> Schumann, Robert: Fantasiestücke
> Chopin, Frédéric: Impromptus
> Schumann, Robert: Gedichte (12) Op. "Lieder von Justinus Kerner" Op. 35 esp. No. 5 Sehnsucht, No. 3 Wanderlied, No. 10 Stille Tränen
> 
> *Level 6*
> Chopin, Frédéric: Fantaisie in F minor
> Chopin, Frédéric: Études Op. 25
> Chopin, Frédéric: Grande Polonaise Brilliante
> Schumann, Robert: Piano Sonata No. 1 in F-sharp minor
> Chopin, Frédéric: Berceuse Op.57
> Schumann, Robert: Gesänge der Frühe (Songs of Dawn) Op. 133
> Schumann, Robert: Faschingsschwank aus Wien
> Schumann, Robert: Violin Concerto in D Minor
> Schumann, Robert: String Quartet Op. 41/1
> Schumann, Robert: Liederkreis (9) Op.24
> Schumann, Robert: Piano Trio No. 1
> Schumann, Robert: Das Paradies und Die Peri
> 
> *Level 7 *
> Schumann, Robert: Humoreske Op. 20
> Schumann, Robert: Overture, Scherzo and Finale Op.52
> Schumann, Robert: Piano Sonata No. 2
> Schumann, Robert: Arabeske Op. 18
> Chopin, Frédéric: Piano Trio
> Schumann, Robert: Adagio & Allegro, Op. 70 (Version for Cello & Piano)
> Schumann, Robert: Toccata Op. 7
> Schumann, Robert: Novelletten Op. 21
> Schumann, Robert: Romanzen und Balladen, Vol.II Op.49 esp. No. 1 Die beiden Grenadiere
> 
> Honourable mentions:
> David, Ferdianand: Lall-Roukh
> Erkel, Ferenc: Bánk Bán
> Wesley, Samuel: Thou Wilt Keep Him in Perfect Peace
> 
> 
> Chopin, and to some extent Schumann, haven't ticked a lot of boxes for me up to now. I'm very much hoping that situation changes this week. Lots of Martha Argerich to ease my journey, together with some Andsnes, Hamelin, Biss, Hough, Ott, Perahia, Grosvenor, Pollini, and others.
> 
> Your collective knowledge, experience and advice on a definite weak-spot for me, as always, gratefully received.


The fourth movement of Chopin’s second sonata is an interesting piece of music.

It’s surprising that the list is limited to Chopin’s op 28 preludes, for me the most beautiful of them is the op 45 prelude, where he seems to write like Brahms almost. It’s also surprising that there’s so little of Schumann’s chamber music there, I think that Märchenerzählungen is one of his greatest instrumental achievements. 

By the way, if you’re going to listen to the songs, let me recommend Christian Gerhaher - for me, he’s in his element in Schumann and Rihm. 

I’m going to use the list to explore the Schumann cello concerto.


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## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> ... By the way, if you’re going to listen to the songs, let me recommend Christian Gerhaher - for me, he’s in his element in Schumann and Rihm ....


Exactly what I have lined-up for Op. 39.


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## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Exactly what I have lined-up for Op. 39.


When exploring Dichterliebe, remember that some people think it’s made of two sets - a cycle of the first five songs and the rest, which may not be cyclical at all.

Now that I’ve put that thought in your head you won’t be able to unthink it.

Worth also looking at the texts. Schumann was interested in literature . He was a reader and his music is very much based on his reading. 


_Ich grolle nicht_ is the only lied I can sing, I leaned it when I was at school, and I quite often sing it at dinner parties when I’m drunk.


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## Kreisler jr

I didn't know this idea about Dichterliebe. 
There is, as sometimes by Schumann, an earlier version of op.48. Schumann cut 4 songs that were later published separately. There are a few recordings that restore them (not sure about other differences between the editions) but I think the only one I have heard was Hampson's I didn't like very much overall and eventually got rid of it.
IIRC the four excised songs are in opp.127 and 142: "Dein Angesicht", "Es leuchtet meine Liebe", "Lehn' deine Wang' an meine Wang'", "Mein Wagen rollet langsam".


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## new but obsessed

Mandryka said:


> When exploring Dichterliebe, remember that some people think it’s made of two sets - a cycle of the first five songs and the rest, which may not be cyclical at all.
> 
> Now that I’ve put that thought in your head you won’t be able to unthink it.
> 
> Worth also looking at the texts. Schumann was interested in literature . He was a reader and his music is very much based on his reading.
> 
> 
> _Ich grolle nicht_ is the only lied I can sing, I leaned it when I was at school, and I quite often sing it at dinner parties when I’m drunk.


Funny, I was reading this just as song five was transitioning to #6. Indeed, the difference is very stark!

I have a harder time getting into Lieder than some other forms of Classical music. I didn't make it far into Winterreise for that reason. But the Bostridge/Drake Dichterliebe album that Chillam put up in his list I have found immensely enjoyable. Such a great voice! "Im wundersschönen..." and "Iche grolle nicht" are beautiful.

The Level 1-2 Chopin has been excellent, too. Really liked Ballade #1 and the recommended Nocturnes 9, 27, 48.

Lastly: in a bit of random but tangentially related listening, I called up an interview podcast with Steve Reich. He spoke a lot about the older music we covered: Leonin/Perotin, and Bach of course. But he also suggested John Coltrane's Africa/Brass album, which I'd never heard. Quite good! Not the height of Coltrane. But a nice new-to-me record.


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## pianozach

new but obsessed said:


> Funny, I was reading this just as song five was transitioning to #6. Indeed, the difference is very stark!
> 
> I have a harder time getting into Lieder than some other forms of Classical music. I didn't make it far into Winterreise for that reason. But the Bostridge/Drake Dichterliebe album that Chillam put up in his list I have found immensely enjoyable. Such a great voice! "Im wundersschönen..." and "Iche grolle nicht" are beautiful.
> 
> The Level 1-2 Chopin has been excellent, too. Really liked Ballade #1 and the recommended Nocturnes 9, 27, 48.
> 
> Lastly: in a bit of random but tangentially related listening, I called up an interview podcast with Steve Reich. He spoke a lot about the older music we covered: Leonin/Perotin, and Bach of course. But he also suggested John Coltrane's Africa/Brass album, which I'd never heard. Quite good! Not the height of Coltrane. But a nice new-to-me record.


I have a confession to make.

I have enough trouble liking/loving opera, which is ironic as I'm the de facto decades-long musical director of a Gilbert & Sullivan repertory group that generally presents two G&S operettas every year, as well as a summer concert series.

Opera is a long-form musical art form, with operas lasting 90 minutes or more.
Most of the really truly great operas are in languages in which I am not fluent.
I'm not a fan of traditional opera solo vocals, with exceptions. Honestly, I prefer "pop opera" voices.

I've accompanied several "legit" singers performing *Schubert Lieder*, and, man, they are unlikable. The *Lieder*, _not_ the singers. The best thing about them is that they're short. The *Leider*, _not_ the singers.


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## EvaBaron

pianozach said:


> I have a confession to make.
> 
> I have enough trouble liking/loving opera, which is ironic as I'm the de facto decades-long musical director of a Gilbert & Sullivan repertory group that generally presents two G&S operettas every year, as well as a summer concert series.
> 
> Opera is a long-form musical art form, with operas lasting 90 minutes or more.
> Most of the really truly great operas are in languages in which I am not fluent.
> I'm not a fan of traditional opera solo vocals, with exceptions. Honestly, I prefer "pop opera" voices.
> 
> I've accompanied several "legit" singers performing *Schubert Lieder*, and, man, they are unlikable. The *Lieder*, _not_ the singers. The best thing about them is that they're short. The *Leider*, _not_ the singers.


Yes that is a big problem for me. Italian operas and German operas would be less interesting because I can’t hear what they’re saying. Also it’s so long that it would take about 12 hours or more before you kind of know an opera at a basic level


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## Kreisler jr

It's very understandable that people struggle with Lieder. They are both intimate and artificial (and therefore it is usually a fallacy that they should be accessible because of brevity and superficial similarity to popular songs). 
But I'd almost go so far to say that Lieder are essential to get a real grasp on Austro-German romanticism from Schubert to early modernity (Mahler, Strauss, 2nd viennese school). In one way or another lieder seem to inform almost everything (besides there being a few composers like Loewe and Wolf who wrote almost nothing else). Sure, you can look at instrumental music in the abstract. But there are "songs without words", quotations, allusions, cycles of piano pieces in analogy to song cycles, later lieder included in symphonies or string quartets etc.
Rosen titles one of the first chapters in his book on the Romantics "Mountains and Songcycles". Schuberts two big cycles (and some other single songs) evoke the wanderer through a romantic landscape; so the song and the romantic nature is basically the foundation of the romantic worldview


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## Mandryka

The way to know an opera “at the most basic level” is to listen to it once following the libretto. Operas tend to have pretty straight forward linear narratives, it’s very straightforward to get to know the plot by listening and following. With most operas - Verdi, Puccini, Wagner, Strauss - follow the libretto once and you’ve pretty well got the hang of what’s going on. There may be bits you miss, but you can easily discover them later if you feel so inclined.


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## Mandryka

I don’t really understand how anyone can have a problem with song. There’s absolutely no difference in kind, in genre, I between a song or song cycle by Schubert and a song or song cycle by Bob Dylan. A song is just a poem and music combined.


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## Mandryka

Shshshshshshshshshsnsbshebxh


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## new but obsessed

Mandryka said:


> The way to know an opera “at the most basic level” is to listen to it once following the libretto. Operas tend to have pretty straight forward linear narratives, it’s very straightforward to get to know the plot by listening and following. With most operas - Verdi, Puccini, Wagner, Strauss - follow the libretto once and you’ve pretty well got the hang of what’s going on. There may be bits you miss, but you can easily discover them later if you feel so inclined.


I'm a big opera fan. It was my gateway to all other classical and remains my favorite art form. I'm absolutely hooked on them.

Still, I have a VERY hard time getting into operas with just the music and the libretto. This is a debatable opinion, but I think opera is first and foremost a narrative theatrical art. The words and the music are key, but it's the physical embodiment of the drama that carries the art form. So I'd suggest looking up some opera on VOD. There seem to be some high quality ones out there for free on youtube! OR get cheap tix to a local opera house!


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## Kreisler jr

Mandryka said:


> I don’t really understand how anyone can have a problem with song. There’s absolutely no difference in kind, in genre, I between a song or song cycle by Schubert and a song or song cycle by Bob Dylan. A song is just a poem and music combined.


But it is obviously the case that many people have problems with the genre who like popular or folk songs (I personally never did but I was never really immersed in modern popular music). So it hardly helps to just reiterate that there should no be problem because there really is no difference. There seems to be a considerable difference in the perception of many listeners, otherwise lieder should be the most popular genre of classical music, not one of the more niche genres...


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## Mandryka

Maybe. 


I’ve seen a lot of opera with star singers and star directors in top opera houses in Europe and America - sometimes it’s a good experience and sometimes it isn’t. 

Just as a matter of personal experience I got to know operas through libretto and sound recording. And if I’m going to see an opera I don’t know in the theatre, even if it has surtitles, I much prefer to listen to a recording with the libretto beforehand.


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## new but obsessed

Mandryka said:


> I don’t really understand how anyone can have a problem with song. There’s absolutely no difference in kind, in genre, I between a song or song cycle by Schubert and a song or song cycle by Bob Dylan. A song is just a poem and music combined.


In an absolute sense I agree. But with foreign language songs it can be difficult to appreciate the poetry. Poetry doesn't always translate well. There's always something reserved for native speakers of that language. I noticed this when I finally got around to reading Paradise Lost. Even though I love earlier epic poems by Homer or Dante, reading Milton was special. And lots had to do with the fact that it was in English -- the rhythm and meaning are more alive and precise in the native language than for Ancient Greek or Italian in translation.

I think with Lieder vs Bob Dylan its much the same -- but with the added bonus of contemporary relevancy. I can directly appreciate Dylan lyrics for their slang and their delivery AND feel deeply the cultural relevancy of the music in a way that's difficult with German, which I don't understand.

What sets opera apart is that the poetry or songs or words are matched to dramatic action. And that serves as a major hook that helps give meaning to the words and music I'm hearing. It's why I was drawn in by opera in the first place. I didn't have to do as much work to imagine or interpret musical drama or tone when it was so very clearly matched to narrative action on the stage. Whereas with a symphony, the listener has to do a lot of that imaginative work for themselves. For those who are practiced in doing so, it is very rewarding. But it can be difficult to learn. But with opera, as becomes true later on with cinema, much of that work is done for the audience.

Maybe a reasonable comparison in English would be between Shakespeare and poetry: even though Shakespeare used poetic forms in his dialogue and soliloquies, his words are made more memorable than most other types of poetry because they are so clearly tied to narrative. The number of average people who can quote or misquote Macbeth or Hamlet etc etc far outnumbers the people who can quote poetry by other great English language poets. And I think it largely has to do with the natural "stickiness" of stories.


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> But it is obviously the case that many people have problems with the genre who like popular or folk songs (I personally never did but I was never really immersed in modern popular music). So it hardly helps to just reiterate that there should no be problem because there really is no difference. There seems to be a considerable difference in the perception of many listeners, otherwise lieder should be the most popular genre of classical music, not one of the more niche genres...


That’s because of the singing style. The unnatural and mannered singing style (think FiDi’s influence on lieder singing, still an influence now.) And it’s because the venues they are performed at are snobby, unfriendly, old fashioned. And of course there’s the language barrier.


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## Mandryka

new but obsessed said:


> In an absolute sense I agree. But with foreign language songs it can be difficult to appreciate the poetry. Poetry doesn't always translate well. There's always something reserved for native speakers of that language. I noticed this when I finally got around to reading Paradise Lost. Even though I love earlier epic poems by Homer or Dante, reading Milton was special. And lots had to do with the fact that it was in English -- the rhythm and meaning are more alive and precise in the native language than in translation.
> 
> I think with Lieder vs Bob Dylan its much the same -- but with the added bonus of contemporary relevancy. I can directly appreciate Dylan lyrics for their slang and their delivery AND feel deeply the cultural relevancy of the music in a way that's difficult with German, which I don't understand.
> 
> What sets opera apart is that the poetry or songs or words are matched to dramatic action. And that serves as a major hook that help gives meaning to the words and music I'm hearing. It's why I was drawn in by opera in the first place. I didn't have to do as much work to imagine or interpret musical drama or tone when it was so very clearly matched to narrative action on the stage. Maybe a reasonable comparison in English would be between Shakespeare and poetry: even though Shakespeare used poetic forms in his dialogue and soliloquies, his words are made more memorable than most other types of poetry because they are so clearly tied to narrative. The number of average people who can quote or misquote Macbeth or Hamlet etc etc far outnumbers the people who can quote other random poetry. And I think it largely has to do with the natural "stickiness" of stories.


I think there was a video of a performance of Winterreise which made it dramatic - with Pears and Britten. Pears in his winter raincoat. And I’ve seen it danced to twice - once with Keenlyside singing and his wife dancing, and once with the Pina Bausch company - both pretty mediocre.


----------



## Mandryka

It’s also worth mentioning that poetry is very much a niche activity, and has been at least since the time of Baudelaire. No one reads poems except other poets and students of literature. Songs are just poems, with a bit of music.


----------



## new but obsessed

Mandryka said:


> I think there was a video of a performance of Winterreise which made it dramatic - with Pears and Britten. Pears in his winter raincoat. And I’ve seen it danced to twice - once with Keenlyside singing and his wife dancing, and once with the Pina Bausch company - both pretty mediocre.


Might it be because the art wasn't meant to be enacted or danced to? It can be difficult to adapt art.



Mandryka said:


> It’s also worth mentioning that poetry is very much a niche activity, and has been since the time of Baudelaire. No one reads poems except other poets and students of literature. Songs are just poems, with a bit of music.


Certainly true. I think each layer you add onto it helps create something more concrete for an audience member to latch onto. Music on its own can be very abstract and hard to describe. As my musician friends like to say: speaking about music is like dancing about architecture. A funny saying that rings true for me. But when you add lyrics to the music, it helps solidify an interpretation. Similarly, for poetry: when it's just read in your head it can be quite vague. When recited it can add more meaning. When set to music it can become even clearer. 

To all those, when you add dramatic action or narrative, it becomes really sticky for audiences. Even loosely-narrative or non-narrative visuals can help -- hence the wild success of music videos and MTV. 

It's why I think film and television have become the most accessible of all the arts. And that leads me to believe that, in their heyday, opera and theater were incredibly accessible for those same reasons. Adding on all these different types of art forms and setting them to a singular purpose helps deliver a very "sticky" and accessible experience for an audience.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> There seems to be a considerable difference in the perception of many listeners, otherwise lieder should be the most popular genre of classical music, not one of the more niche genres...





Kreisler jr said:


> By such a reasoning Chopin's b flat minor would be a better sonata than the b minor because it has been played/recorded far more frequently, the best Mozart sonata would probably be K 331 and so on.


Sorry about quoting your posts from other threads, but sometimes you seem to suggest popularity is an objective measure of greatness, other times it's not. Can you explain to us your "stance" regarding this clearly so that we can view your way of thinking as having some consistency?


----------



## Chilham

hammeredklavier said:


> Sorry about quoting your posts from other threads, but sometimes you seem to suggest popularity is an objective measure of greatness, other times it's not. Can you explain to us your "stance" regarding this clearly so that we can view your way of thinking as having some consistency?


Let's not. Take it to the other thread if it's important to you.


----------



## Kreisler jr

hammeredklavier said:


> Sorry about quoting your posts from other threads, but sometimes you seem to suggest popularity is an objective measure of greatness, other times it's not. Can you explain to us your "stance" regarding this clearly so that we can view your way of thinking as having some consistency?


I didn't say anything positive about the relation between popularity and greatness in the case of lieder. And I never said popularity was a measure of greatness._ I think it is one indicator among several others_, like a hat might point to the perpertrator in a crime mystery. [In the case of K 331 it seems easy to explain the high popularity because of the picturesque alla turca and the melodic accessibility of the first movement, in the case of D 960 and op.111 a think it is some myth of the "last work".]

The shared opinion of a commmunity of scholars or musicians is a better indicator etc. but of course one could still be off in its judgement. (In a way it is a strong indicator of objectivity, that you could be wrong. You often *can't* be wrong in subjective assessments because you are just reporting a personal reaction, there is no external object as measure for revision. (Of course there is some maths and logics where you can be objectively correct with no revision possible but this is a rather special case and it is an open question if there are "external objects"/measures) for maths)

But I don't think for a second that mass popularity among a late 20th century audience that has had their ears and tastes corrupted by several generations of commercial pop music that has a singing style only made possible by artificial amplification is such a good indicator.
It's rather predictable that both opera and lied are special tastes partly because the singing style is different from what people have heard in popular music (whereas instrumental classical music is often so different that a comparison with pop is not provoked).

However, because of the intimacy of lieder many of which were intended for smallish audience (either private of semi-private like a large Salon), I think recordings are a pretty good thing because listening alone to a recording might be more adaequate than a large hall (obviously totally different for opera).
And I also cannot shake the advantage that most lieder are in my native language which makes the perception very different (but it could also work in the opposite direction because old-fashioned staid poetry is also more easy to spot). This might account for a rather different stance towards the genre.


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## Luchesi

Kreisler jr said:


> It's very understandable that people struggle with Lieder. They are both intimate and artificial (and therefore it is usually a fallacy that they should be accessible because of brevity and superficial similarity to popular songs).
> But I'd almost go so far to say that Lieder are essential to get a real grasp on Austro-German romanticism from Schubert to early modernity (Mahler, Strauss, 2nd viennese school). In one way or another lieder seem to inform almost everything (besides there being a few composers like Loewe and Wolf who wrote almost nothing else). Sure, you can look at instrumental music in the abstract. But there are "songs without words", quotations, allusions, cycles of piano pieces in analogy to song cycles, later lieder included in symphonies or string quartets etc.
> Rosen titles one of the first chapters in his book on the Romantics "Mountains and Songcycles". Schuberts two big cycles (and some other single songs) evoke the wanderer through a romantic landscape; so the song and the romantic nature is basically the foundation of the romantic worldview


I'm interested in Schubert's intentions in the piano accompaniment in his songs. He wanted something relevant, but not more 'interesting' than what the singer does. He composed so many that the answer is probably different for each, time after time. Was he writing for pianists he knew, perhaps, or maybe nobody else. It's very difficult to be a world-class accompanist. 
Anyway, kudos to man!, and 'much fairer hopes'.. I think that's the phrase, too lazy right now to google it.


----------



## Chilham

I've enjoyed Schumann this week. Twenty-one works listened to and all of a very consistent enjoyment level. Nothing outstanding or worthy of singling-out, yet nothing that grates or falls short for me. Remarkable really. The only work I didn't enjoy was Myrthen, but sense that was the soprano rather than the work itself as I enjoyed Gerhaher's Myrthen pieces.

Chopin on the other hand has disappointed me again. After the first few works, my enjoyment level fell off a cliff. His Cello Sonata and Piano Sonata No. 3 threatened to raise the bar, but not enough to prevent him becoming the lowest-rated composer of any of the fifteen from whom I've listened to more than ten works this year.

Liszt and the rest of the, "Early-Romantics", coming tomorrow, clearing the way for our second opera week starting on 25th.


----------



## Luchesi

Chilham said:


> I've enjoyed Schumann this week. Twenty-one works listened to and all of a very consistent enjoyment level. Nothing outstanding or worthy of singling-out, yet nothing that grates or falls short for me. Remarkable really. The only work I didn't enjoy was Myrthen, but sense that was the soprano rather than the work itself as I enjoyed Gerhaher's Myrthen pieces.
> 
> Chopin on the other hand has disappointed me again. After the first few works, my enjoyment level fell off a cliff. His Cello Sonata and Piano Sonata No. 3 threatened to raise the bar, but not enough to prevent him becoming the lowest-rated composer of any of the fifteen from whom I've listened to more than ten works this year.
> 
> Liszt and the rest of the, "Early-Romantics", coming tomorrow, clearing the way for our second opera week starting on 25th.


I think Chopin was the great (thinking) link between the attractiveness of Mozart and Schubert, then on past himself to Brahms, Scriabin, Debussy.
I understand why many will underrate him. There must be 5 reasons people cite. In the past, to me, it's seemed to be an unfortunate outcome due to special factors coming together with him. 

Then I heard Glenn Gould complain, why would anyone want to sit through an hour long piano recital. So, it brought that home to me. Can a musician relate to a non-musician's view of such questions? Music is good for learning, performing and listening, and this was probably the world that Chopin expected. 

Any personally-unique complaints about Chopin? I find it interesting.


----------



## Chilham

It's me, not Chopin, that's for sure. I don't warm so easily to solo piano works as I do orchestral, chamber or opera, but whilst I enjoyed or at least appreciated all of the Schumann works listed (I listened down to Chopin's Berceuse), I simply didn't enjoy Chopin's Impromtus, Polonaises, Études, Scherzo No. 2, Fantasie in F Minor, Barcarolle or Piano Concerto No. 1.

Maybe they'll grow on me.


----------



## Luchesi

Chilham said:


> It's me, not Chopin, that's for sure. I don't warm so easily to solo piano works as I do symphonic, chamber or opera, but whilst I enjoyed or at least appreciated all of the Schumann works listed (I listened down to Chopin's Berceuse), I simply didn't enjoy Chopin's Impromtus, Polonaises, Études, Scherzo No. 2, Fantasie in F Minor, Barcarolle or Piano Concerto No. 1.
> 
> Maybe they'll grow on me.


Maybe they will. When I was a kid I avoided his larger works, preferring to get to know his famous, small melodic works.

So, he wasn't composing for me at that age, nor for music enthusiasts who had been already impressed by orchestral narratives or quartets with their separated interweaving parts. As we know, he was a promoter of what the piano could seriously do beyond song-like Schubert, and the less "vulgar" and easier for the public than LvB (and with melodies more central to his works than Schumann). He had his niche, but it's probably long gone.

People listen to him as flowery background, or as pianists they study his innovations (for the NEW more powerful and more playable pianos).
I expect that when people (accidentally) like his larger works, the masterful pieces will actually become some memorable go/to pieces for them, when they're in that mood. The old cliché is that you have to be in the mood for Chopin (if you're just listening). But that's probably the same for many composers (like JsB or Scriabin or Liszt, for me).


----------



## new but obsessed

I appreciate these perspectives. Particularly that tidbit about Glenn Gould. Makes sense! 

I haven't gotten beyond half of the level 3 works. But overall I find I resonate with Chillam's assessment of Schubert and Chopin. Very pleasant works but maybe stuff that won't stick in my brain in the way that JsB or LVB or WAM do (since we're sticking to initials here, haha). 

I did love Chopin's Ballade's and Nocturne. But the Waltzes I couldn't get through -- pleasant but not terribly interesting if you aren't ballroom dancing, I guess. Similarly, I couldn't get into Schumann's Kinderszenen and Kreisliriana as much his very good piano concerto. 

I'm curious, are we going to be covering the works of Clara S. and Fanny M.? I've been listening to my fair share of classical music/history podcasts and they've had remarkable stories. I wonder if their musical legacy has garnered Chillam-Metacritic/Chill-Tomatoes levels of noteworthiness.


----------



## Luchesi

new but obsessed said:


> I appreciate these perspectives. Particularly that tidbit about Glenn Gould. Makes sense!
> 
> I haven't gotten beyond half of the level 3 works. But overall I find I resonate with Chillam's assessment of Schubert and Chopin. Very pleasant works but maybe stuff that won't stick in my brain in the way that JsB or LVB or WAM do (since we're sticking to initials here, haha).
> 
> I did love Chopin's Ballade's and Nocturne. But the Waltzes I couldn't get through -- pleasant but not terribly interesting if you aren't ballroom dancing, I guess. Similarly, I couldn't get into Schumann's Kinderszenen and Kreisliriana as much his very good piano concerto.
> 
> I'm curious, are we going to be covering the works of Clara S. and Fanny M.? I've been listening to my fair share of classical music/history podcasts and they've had remarkable stories. I wonder if their musical legacy has garnered Chillam-Metacritic/Chill-Tomatoes levels of noteworthiness.


As for Clara and Fanny, I would say that their ideas were less impressive, but their pieces are of course very well-crafted (they had plenty of exposure). So, what I would suspect is that people would have a more difficult time with them and are more apt to get tired of the process of listening to them.
Anyway the more you listen, weeks apart, and and in very different moods, the more you will hear in them …and then you could be impressed by how much less quality time they probably had for composing (less than Robert or Felix).

On another note, relevant to this thread, we were exploring in my classes yesterday how and why people seem to immediately appreciate works like Moonlight Sonata and Liebestraum and Pachelbel Canon in D, Air on a G String, Ravel’s Death of a Princess, Mozart’s k545. We came to a preliminary conclusion that humans already know these famous chord progressions AND the notes in these pieces grow right out of the chord progressions ..that they already know. Of course I'm speaking of preteens with little experience in listening, but it might be helpful to know as the new CM fan.

It's fairly obvious, but so much about music appreciation is quite obvious (it actually has to be for non-musicians, and composers needed to know that all too well).

Added
As you listen for decades, you rely less and less upon your favorite progressions which had brought you so much pleasure early on.


----------



## new but obsessed

Luchesi said:


> As for Clara and Fanny, I would say that their ideas were less impressive, but their pieces are of course very well-crafted (they had plenty of exposure). So, what I would suspect is that people would have a more difficult time with them and are more apt to get tired of the process of listening to them.
> Anyway the more you listen, weeks apart, and and in very different moods, the more you will hear in them …and then you could be impressed by how much less quality time they probably had for composing (less than Robert or Felix).
> 
> On another note, relevant to this thread, we were exploring in my classes yesterday how and why people seem to immediately appreciate works like Moonlight Sonata and Liebestraum and Pachelbel Canon in D, Air on a G String, Ravel’s Death of a Princess, Mozart’s k545. We came to a preliminary conclusion that humans already know these famous chord progressions AND the notes in these pieces grow right out of the chord progressions ..that they already know. Of course I'm speaking of preteens with little experience in listening, but it might be helpful to know as the new CM fan.
> 
> It's fairly obvious, but so much about music appreciation is quite obvious (it actually has to be for non-musicians, and composers needed to know that all too well).


Indeed. Very interesting and useful. Not just with Classical but with all music, I have a hard time understanding why I like some things and not others (usually it has little to do with meeting conventions -- most often with contemporary music I have prefered the non-mainstream/non-pop, so I find it interesting that I resonate more highly with "traditional" CM, maybe?). I usually chalk it up to "the little person in me who is either dancing to the tune or not". ha. It's all the more frustrating because I studied cinema very closely in college, so in seeing how well I can understand one art form, it makes my blindspots in other art forms, music included, that much more stark. 

And that makes sense with Clara and Fanny. I had heard that Fanny was often dissuaded from publishing openly. Though I'd heard an anecdote that some of her works did find important non-musician fans, like the Queen of England. And I'd read that Clara was mostly busy as a performer rather than a composer, and was the main source of income for her family. Amazing, really! I love this sort of history!


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## Kreisler jr

As I said above we had the Fanny Mendelssohn-Hensel quartet in the weekly quartet series. It's a rather interesting and original piece and worth a try if one likes the genre and classicist/early romantic pieces.


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## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> ... I'm curious, are we going to be covering the works of Clara S. and Fanny M.? I've been listening to my fair share of classical music/history podcasts and they've had remarkable stories. I wonder if their musical legacy has garnered Chillam-Metacritic/Chill-Tomatoes levels of noteworthiness.


Fanny M was the same week as Felix. There were just two of her works on the list, in Level 6; the String Quartet in E-flat Major that Kreisler jr mentioned and the Piano Trio Op. 11. Clara S coming tomorrow.

Sneak preview:

*Level 5*
Schumann, Clara: Piano Concerto
Schumann, Clara: 3 Romances Op. 22 esp. No. 1, Andante molto
Schumann, Clara: Piano Trio Op 17

*Level 6*
Schumann, Clara: Piano Sonata in G Minor
Schumann, Clara: Three Preludes and Fugues Op. 16


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## new but obsessed

Aha! Lazy me, then. Levels 5 & 6 are below where I usually roam given my time constraints. But I think I'll check these works out. Thanks!


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## Chilham

Composers born 1811-1819 this week, including the non-operatic works of Verdi and Wagner. Quite an interesting bag.

*Level 1*
*Verdi, Giuseppe*: *Requiem Mass* esp. III Offertorio: Domine Jesu, Dies Irae










*Level 2*
*Liszt, Franz*: Piano Sonata in B minor, S. 178 esp. IV. Andante sostenuto









Liszt, Franz: Hungarian Rhapsodies esp. Rhapsody No. 2

*Level 3*
*Wagner, Richard*: Siegfried - Idyll

*Level 4*
Liszt, Franz: Piano Concerto No. 1
Liszt, Franz: Faust Symphony

*Level 5*
Liszt, Franz: Der Tanz in der Dorfschenke "Mephisto Waltz No. 1"
Liszt, Franz: Transcendental Studies After Paganini









Liszt, Franz: *Les Préludes*
Liszt, Franz: *Totentanz*
Liszt, Franz: Piano Concerto No. 2
Schumann, Clara: Piano Concerto
*Gounod, Charles*: Ave Maria
Schumann, Clara: 3 Romances Op. 22 esp. No. 1, Andante molto
Schumann, Clara: Piano Trio Op 17
*Alkan, Charles-Valentin*: Symphonie for Solo Piano Op. 39

*Level 6*
Liszt, Franz: Années de Pèlerinage Deuxième année "Italie"
Liszt, Franz: Années de Pèlerinage Première année "Suisse"
Liszt, Franz: Années de pèlerinage Troisième année
Liszt, Franz: Nuages Gris (Trübe Wolken)
Wagner, Richard: Wesendonck-Lieder









Liszt, Franz: Dante Symphony
Gounod, Charles: Mors et Vita
Alkan, Charles-Valentin: Études
Liszt, Franz: Liebestraum No. 3
Alkan, Charles-Valentin: Grande Sonate
Verdi, Giuseppe: *String Quartet in E Minor*









Thomas, Amboise: Hamlet
Liszt, Franz: Bagatelle Without Tonality
Thomas, Amboise: Mignon
Franz, Robert: Gesãnge (12) Op. 1 esp. No. 3 Die Lotosblume, No. 5 "O säh' ich auf der Haide dort", No. 10 Schlummerlied
Gounod, Charles: La Rédemption
*Offenbach, Jacques**:* Gaīté Parisienne
Schumann, Clara: Piano Sonata in G Minor
Schumann, Clara: Three Preludes and Fugues Op. 16

*Level 7*
Liszt, Franz: Liebstraum No. 2
Liszt, Franz: La Lugubre Gondola
Liszt, Franz: 6 Consolations, S. 172 esp. *No. 3 in D-Flat Major*
Gounod, Charles: Messe Solenelle de Saint Cécile
Litolff, Henry: Concerto Symphonique No. 4 "Scherzo"
Liszt, Franz: Rhapsodie Espagnole
Gounod, Charles: Marche Funèbre d'un Marionette
Gounod, Charles: Peteite Symphonie


Honourable mentions:
*Mayer, Emilie*: Piano Concerto, Piano Sonata, String Quartet & Symphony No. 4
Dargomïzhsky, Alexander: Rusalka & The Stone Guest
Fry, William: Leonara
Moniuszko, Stanislaw: Halka
Suppé, Franz von: Requiem esp. 5. Recordare


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## Mandryka

Great shame that Liszt’s songs aren’t there!


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## Kreisler jr

Mandryka said:


> Great shame that Liszt’s songs aren’t there!


Any particular recommendations? I have some of them somewhere but don't remember ever listening to them...

Wth Siegfried Idyll? Because it is the only non-operatic Wagner, or what? As problematic as "bleeding chunks" of operas might be, I think they give a better impression of Wagner's main works than the idyll.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Great shame that Liszt’s songs aren’t there!


There was one recommendation for, "Liszt's songs". To be listed here with only one recommendation, the works also have to appear in Science's TC's Most Favoured listing. I couldn't find any.

Which do you recommend?


----------



## Chilham

Kreisler jr said:


> ...
> Wth Siegfried Idyll? Because it is the only non-operatic Wagner, or what? As problematic as "bleeding chunks" of operas might be, I think they give a better impression of Wagner's main works than the idyll.


Not sure I understand the question. Just to clarify, Siegfried - Idyll got eleven nominations, separate from the opera which got twenty-one and we'll cover next week, so I put it here, with Wesendonck-Lieder.


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## Kreisler jr

The question is "why bother"? This project is severely "crowded" as it is, so skip Siegfried Idyll and the Verdi Quartet


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## Chilham

Kreisler jr said:


> The question is "why bother"? This project is severely "crowded" as it is, so skip Siegfried Idyll and the Verdi Quartet


Good question but I guess I want to make as few "editorial" decisions myself as possible. I set the criteria and after that, if it's in, it's in, and if it's out, it's out. Not for me to exclude individual works.


----------



## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> Any particular recommendations? I have some of them somewhere but don't remember ever listening to them...
> 
> Wth Siegfried Idyll? Because it is the only non-operatic Wagner, or what? As problematic as "bleeding chunks" of operas might be, I think they give a better impression of Wagner's main works than the idyll.


I first discovered the songs through a strange route. Pavi, on his live Carnegie hall recital disc. I just noticed this on youtube which sounds excellent to me

Liszt - Sonetto del Petrarca nº 104: Pace non trovo (Luciano Pavarotti) - YouTube

A good standby in Liszt is Nicolai Gedda, here he is with _O quand je dors_

Oh! quand je dors, S282/2/R569b - YouTube

Here's Quasthoff singing _Loreley_

Liszt: Die Loreley, S.273 - 1. Fassung - YouTube

A more recent anthology which I enjoyed a lot is Matthew Polenzani with Julius Drake


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> The question is "why bother"? This project is severely "crowded" as it is, so skip Siegfried Idyll and the Verdi Quartet


There's a very good recording of the Siegfried Idyll by Bruno Maderna which I can let people have if they PM me. Apart from that, it was transcribed very well IMO by Glen Gould

Wagner - Siegfried Idyll - Glenn Gould transcription - YouTube

I think the quartet group here did the Verdi -- not my cup of tea so I won't comment.


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> Any particular recommendations? I have some of them somewhere but don't remember ever listening to them...
> Wth Siegfried Idyll? Because it is the only non-operatic Wagner, or what? As problematic as "bleeding chunks" of operas might be, I think they give a better impression of Wagner's main works than the idyll.


Die Lorelei, composed in 1856, just as Wagner was embarking on Tristan und Isolde


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## justekaia

Chilham said:


> It's me, not Chopin, that's for sure. I don't warm so easily to solo piano works as I do orchestral, chamber or opera, but whilst I enjoyed or at least appreciated all of the Schumann works listed (I listened down to Chopin's Berceuse), I simply didn't enjoy Chopin's Impromtus, Polonaises, Études, Scherzo No. 2, Fantasie in F Minor, Barcarolle or Piano Concerto No. 1.
> 
> Maybe they'll grow on me.


hello chilham, as you know i am i awe of your fabulous thread and will participate in the later stages where i can contribute more. that being said Chopin is an absolute genius and his music has immense inner strength, what i believe most listeners do not grasp at first hearing. He is one of the 50 composers i always go back to. his preludes and nocturnes in the right hands are simply unbelievable. Freire and Argerich as well as Fliter and Anna Gourari are some of the right contemporary interpreters. Arthur Rubinstein was superlative in his days.So, when you have time please listen to these versions of those two masterpieces. there are plenty of other great pieces on top of that.take care


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## justekaia

Kreisler jr said:


> Any particular recommendations? I have some of them somewhere but don't remember ever listening to them...
> 
> Wth Siegfried Idyll? Because it is the only non-operatic Wagner, or what? As problematic as "bleeding chunks" of operas might be, I think they give a better impression of Wagner's main works than the idyll.


The Siegfried Idyll is an absolute masterpiece and the template for so many symphonic poems to come. I am sure Richard Strauss must have heard it. The Operas, i agree are on another level because there is so much more involved (libretto; voices, themes and orchestral strength).


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## justekaia

to kreisler jr: karajan, janowski, dausgaard and nelsons all do a great job with the siegfried -idyll happy listenings


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## Mandryka

I used to be very blasé about the Wessendonck Lieder -- I used to think you may as well just listen to Tristan. Then I heard this, my jaw dropped to the floor. 

Kirsten Flagstad; "WESENDONCK LIEDER"; Richard Wagner - YouTube


----------



## pianozach

Kreisler jr said:


> As I said above we had the Fanny Mendelssohn-Hensel quartet in the weekly quartet series. It's a rather interesting and original piece and worth a try if one likes the genre and classicist/early romantic pieces.


I have a theory, unsupported by any real facts. I think that many of Robert Schumann's works may have actually been written by Clara.


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## justekaia

pianozach said:


> I have a theory, unsupported by any real facts. I think that many of Robert Schumann's works may have actually written by Clara.


Your theory does not make any sense. RS wrote his masterpieces like Kreisleriana and Fantasia as homages to a very young Clara. He was no doubt vastly superior to Clara as a composer. Clara would have written loads of masterpieces after his death if she had been a great composer, which she was not. She was a great pianist.


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## justekaia

Mandryka said:


> Shshshshshshshshshsnsbshebxh


Are you communicating with aliens?


----------



## Chilham

justekaia said:


> Are you communicating with aliens?


Let's make it about the music.

I've found listening to Liszt this week more enjoyable than I was anticipating and boy can Trifinov play! 

Dante Symphony, the third Année de Pèlerinage and Allan's Piano Symphony left for me before I head back up the chronology to catch up on a few pieces I missed earlier in the year.


----------



## Chilham

A second full opera week to take us to the half-way point of our journey. More great opera than you can shake a stick at, and far too much listening for one week, so make your selections wisely. For me, I plan to revisit a couple of favourites, then head to some new-to-me works.

*Level 1
Verdi, Giuseppe: *La Traviata
*Wagner, Richard*: Der Ring des Nimbelungun ii. *Die Walküre*

*







*
Wagner, Richard: Der Ring des Nimbelungun i. Das Rheingold
Wagner, Richard: *Tristan und Isolde*


*







*

Verdi, Giuseppe: Rigoletto










*Level 2*
Wagner, Richard: Der Ring des Nimbelungun iii. Siegfried
Wagner, Richard: Der Ring des Nimbelungun iv. Götterdämmerung
Verdi, Giuseppe: Aida









Verdi, Giuseppe: Otello

*Level 3*
Wagner, Richard: Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Wagner, Richard; Tannhäuser
*Bellini, Vincenzo*: Norma
Wagner, Richard: Parsifal
Wagner, Richard: Der Fliegende Hollander
*Offenbach, Jacques*: Les Contes d'Hoffmann
Verdi, Giuseppe: Il Trovatore
Wagner, Richard: Lohengrin
Verdi, Giuseppe: Falstaff


*Level 4*
*Gounod, Charles*: Faust esp. Jewel Song









Verdi, Giuseppe: Don Carlo
Offenbach, Jacques: Orphée aux enfers
Verdi, Giuseppe: La Forza del Destino
Suppé, Franz von: Light Cavalry Overture
Verdi, Giuseppe: Nabucco esp. Chorus Of The Hebrew Slaves
Bellini, Vincenzo: I Puritani
Verdi, Giuseppe: Un Ballo in Maschera

*Level 5*
Gounod, Charles: Romeo et Juliette
Verdi, Giuseppe: Macbeth
Offenbach, Jacques: La Belle Hélène
Flotow, Friederich von: Martha esp. Ach So Fromm

*Level 6*
Suppé, Franz von: Poet and Peasant Overture
Bellini, VincenzoLe Sonnambula
Verdi, Giuseppe: Simon Boccanegra
Wagner, Richard: Rienzi
Verdi, Giuseppe: Luisa Miller
Verdi, Giuseppe Ernani
*Nicolai, Otto*: Die Lustigen Weiber von Windsor

*Level 7*
Bellini, Vincenzo: I Capuleti e I Montecchi
Balfe, Michael: The Bohemian Girl
Wagner, Richard: Die Feen


Honourable mentions:
Adam, Adolphe: Le Postillon de Lonjumeau & Si J'Etais Roi
Lortzing, Albert: Zar and Zimmerman
Barnett, John: The Mountain Sylph
Cornelius, Peter: The Barber of Bagdad
Strauss, Johan II: A Night in Venice


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## Mandryka

The Tales of Hoffman is good fun. I’m not at all interested in those middle period Verdi operas but I can say one thing - I enjoyed Simon Boccanegra. I’d certainly be interested to know what you make of the complex Don Carlos - strange ending, and then there’s the Fontainebleau scene, and the choice of Italian or French. I’m not sure that any of these things can work from an audio recording.

Have I seen Faust? I can’t remember (maybe confusing it with Werther.)


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## new but obsessed

In case anyone is like me, nerdy and obsessed with Der Ring, I have found two very fun supplements to the traditional audio/visual media. And possibly good gifts for millennial and gen z friends and family of yours who are daunted by the prospect of diving into these massive operas. They'll definitely get you hooked!

1) The Ring of the Nibelung by P. Craig Russell: It's an almost line-by-line translation of the libretto, paired with high end modern graphic novel images. It's been really fun to read it while listening to the opera. It's slower than just reading it for sure, but it's almost like watching a well-done animated version of the opera. It also slows me down so that I can appreciate the art work a bit more and immerse myself into the images. It also pairs well with the collection of Arthur Rackham's images for Der Ring.










2) Siegfried by Alex Alice: a three-part re-telling/adaptation of the cycle, originally French but available in English. A more modern graphic novel. Beautiful and exciting and a lot of fun. Not quite something you can read along with the opera as the story order is quite different.











PS: Apparently P. Craig Russell, when not illustrating massive superhero or Neil Gaiman graphic novels, writes and illustrates graphic novels based on operas as his passion projects. I'm definitely going to look up his other works -- fun to see someone taking opera into a surprising new medium! He has a Pelleas & Melisande, Salome, The Magic Flute, Parsifal, Ariane & Bluebeard, I Pagliacci. And it looks like he's worked with Arizona Opera to make a Carmen graphic novel that's coming out soon. Going to scrounge around my public library to look for copies!


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## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> I'm only aware of 'singspiel' as a style of opera used by Mozart. Interested to discover more.


(It's a bit late to post this now), but there is also this




Die Geisterinsel


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## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> The Tales of Hoffman is good fun. I’m not at all interested in those middle period Verdi operas but I can say one thing - I enjoyed Simon Boccanegra. I’d certainly be interested to know what you make of the complex Don Carlos - strange ending, and then there’s the Fontainebleau scene, and the choice of Italian or French. I’m not sure that any of these things can work from an audio recording.
> 
> Have I seen Faust? I can’t remember (maybe confusing it with Werther.)


My approach to opera is to listen and/or watch all operas nominated in the top two levels, often plus the top recommended opera of other composers, such as Gounod's Faust this week, and listen to only highlights of the rest, usually about 30-45-minutes including the overture and top-rated arias. If I really enjoy the highlights, then I'll look to download the rest of the opera. I have some highlights of Simon Boccanegra and Don Carlos that I'm hoping to have time to listen to later in the week.

I'm alternating composers each day, Verdi's La Traviata on Saturday and Wagner's Die Wauküre yesterday - Solti's cd and the Met's Levine/Terfel/Kaufmann dvd in the evening - so have Aida 'on-deck' today. Barenboim's Tristan und Isolde cd up tomorrow and the dvd in the evening. Verdi's Rigoletto - Sierra/Hvorostovsky cd & Damrau/Flores dvd - for Wednesday. Gounod's Faust and the highlights of others on Thursday and Friday. Opera weeks are always a challenge to spend enough time appreciating the piece. In a normal week, I'd get down the list to the equivalent of Rienzi. I doubt I'll get to the bottom of Level 3 this week, although I'm dipping down to sample just a few below that.


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## Chilham

hammeredklavier said:


> (It's a bit late to post this now), but there is also this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Die Geisterinsel


I'll confess I'm still struggling to understand what pieces are singspiel and what aren't.

I listen to and very much enjoyed Jacob's Leonore. It seemed to me to fit the broad description of singspiel - a form of German-language music drama, now regarded as a genre of opera ... characterized by spoken dialogue, which is alternated with ensembles, songs etc. - yet it isn't 'labeled' as such as far as I can tell.


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## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> My approach to opera is to listen and/or watch all operas nominated in the top two levels, often plus the top recommended opera of other composers, such as Gounod's Faust this week, and listen to only highlights of the rest, usually about 30-45-minutes including the overture and top-rated arias. If I really enjoy the highlights, then I'll look to download the rest of the opera. I have some highlights of Simon Boccanegra and Don Carlos that I'm hoping to have time to listen to later in the week.
> 
> I'm alternating composers each day, Verdi's La Traviata on Saturday and Wagner's Die Wauküre yesterday - Solti's cd and the Met's Levine/Terfel/Kaufmann dvd in the evening - so have Aida 'on-deck' today. Barenboim's Tristan und Isolde cd up tomorrow and the dvd in the evening. Verdi's Rigoletto - Sierra/Hvorostovsky cd & Damrau/Flores dvd - for Wednesday. Gounod's Faust and the highlights of others on Thursday and Friday. Opera weeks are always a challenge to spend enough time appreciating the piece. In a normal week, I'd get down the list to the equivalent of Rienzi. I doubt I'll get to the bottom of Level 3 this week, although I'm dipping down to sample just a few below that.


Bon courage


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## new but obsessed

I'm enjoying the opera highlights this week! I wish I had the time (and the A/V gear) to watch the Met HD opera versions. This is probably the era and the music I've been most familiar with and am most attracted to. 

I'm skipping the Ring as I've been going through my own intensive journey with that in recent months. My first listen through the highlights (beyond the prelude and Liebestod) of Tristan und Isolde makes me want to one day see that opera live even more! And I haven't revisited La Traviata since watching a Met HD stream in 2020. Such a beautiful and powerful opera.

This is an easy week for me. I'm naturally drawn to Wagner's grand fantasy/mythology stories and his epic music. And Verdi is just so masterful. I was fortunate to catch Trovatore and Tannhauser as my first two post-2020 live operas -- though I found Trovatore to a bit too dour to be a top favorite. Not a lot of levity or tonal variation in that story, just lots of anger and violence and revenge. Awesome music, a good story, but not an excellent story, IMO, so I can see why it's a notch below Rigoletto and Traviata. Tannhauser had more pure beauty and more pure lust than Trovatore, so I think it made for a more engaging and dynamic story. 

I've long wanted to see all of Verdi's other major works, and the Rigoletto highlights were awesome. Listening to Aida highlights now, which is frustrating because I had tickets to an LA Opera performance of it a month ago, but had to give them up because I was stuck at home with covid! gah! I heard it was a great show. Looking forward to tuning into Otello, and right on theme with the Shakespeare in the Park fest starting up in our local park this July. After seeing Joel Coen's Macbeth last winter, I've been jonesing to see Verdi's Macbeth live, or any/all of his Shakespearean operas. 

I find it fascinating that Rheingold is at a higher level than Siegfried and Gotterdammerung. Rheingold and Gotterdammerung, I think, are my two favorite of the cycle. I think Seigfried's first act drags on with too much recap and exposition, but it's great after that. I had always assumed that Walkure and Gotterdammerung were the most celebrated episodes and that Rheingold was the least celebrated, all based on my web explorations on these topics. Anyway, I love them all, and the relative rankings that Chillam has tallied surprised me.

I have revisited bits of Tannhauser recently. After seeing it live last year (with the Venusburg ballet sequence), I listened to that overture several times a day for the subsequent month. Mesmerizing! In recent weeks I've returned to the Grand March _Freudig Begrüßen Wir Die Edle Halle_ because it reminds me of a video game I played in 2020 and is just wonderfully courtly music. Very chivalric, very high fantasy! 

Happy listening to all!


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## Luchesi

new but obsessed said:


> I'm enjoying the opera highlights this week! I wish I had the time (and the A/V gear) to watch the Met HD opera versions. This is probably the era and the music I've been most familiar with and am most attracted to.
> 
> I'm skipping the Ring as I've been going through my own intensive journey with that in recent months. My first listen through the highlights (beyond the prelude and Liebestod) of Tristan und Isolde makes me want to one day see that opera live even more! And I haven't revisited La Traviata since watching a Met HD stream in 2020. Such a beautiful and powerful opera.
> 
> This is an easy week for me. I'm naturally drawn to Wagner's grand fantasy/mythology stories and his epic music. And Verdi is just so masterful. I was fortunate to catch Trovatore and Tannhauser as my first two post-2020 live operas -- though I found Trovatore to a bit too dour to be a top favorite. Not a lot of levity or tonal variation in that story, just lots of anger and violence and revenge. Awesome music, a good story, but not an excellent story, IMO, so I can see why it's a notch below Rigoletto and Traviata. Tannhauser had more pure beauty and more pure lust than Trovatore, so I think it made for a more engaging and dynamic story.
> 
> I've long wanted to see all of Verdi's other major works, and the Rigoletto highlights were awesome. Listening to Aida highlights now, which is frustrating because I had tickets to an LA Opera performance of it a month ago, but had to give them up because I was stuck at home with covid! gah! I heard it was a great show. Looking forward to tuning into Otello, and right on theme with the Shakespeare in the Park fest starting up in our local park this July. After seeing Joel Coen's Macbeth last winter, I've been jonesing to see Verdi's Macbeth live, or any/all of his Shakespearean operas.
> 
> I find it fascinating that Rheingold is at a higher level than Siegfried and Gotterdammerung. Rheingold and Gotterdammerung, I think, are my two favorite of the cycle. I think Seigfried's first act drags on with too much recap and exposition, but it's great after that. I had always assumed that Walkure and Gotterdammerung were the most celebrated episodes and that Rheingold was the least celebrated, all based on my web explorations on these topics. Anyway, I love them all, and the relative rankings that Chillam has tallied surprised me.
> 
> I have revisited bits of Tannhauser recently. After seeing it live last year (with the Venusburg ballet sequence), I listened to that overture several times a day for the subsequent month. Mesmerizing! In recent weeks I've returned to the Grand March _Freudig Begrüßen Wir Die Edle Halle_ because it reminds me of a video game I played in 2020 and is just wonderfully courtly music. Very chivalric, very high fantasy!
> 
> Happy listening to all!


Thanks. I wonder how much time I would have to set aside to get to where you are with Verdi and Wagner. I've told myself, someday I'll do it.. 

But coming back to an earlier memory of them is worth a lot, for a personal view.


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## new but obsessed

Luchesi said:


> Thanks. I wonder how much time I would have to set aside to get to where you are with Verdi and Wagner. I've told myself, someday I'll do it..
> 
> But coming back to an earlier memory of them is worth a lot, for a personal view.


Indeed -- it's easy to return to your favorite pieces of music. I think because of my deep love for and formal education in cinema, the operas of Verdi and Wagner, and maybe Wagner more than most, have been extremely appealing. So it's been very easy for me to set aside the time to get into these works. My immediate understanding of them upon first encountering their operas was that these were the mega blockbusters of their day, and so I am quite drawn to them and their type of musical storytelling. More than anything else I've encountered (theater, literature, etc), opera seems to be the most direct forerunner of the cinematic arts, especially once sync sound became widespread by the early 1930s. Verdi, Wagner, and probably even more so Puccini were clearly influences on the film scores of the 20th century. And it's apparent to me that films like Doctor Zhivago, Lawrence of Arabia, or any number of grand epic cinematic tales are greatly indebted to opera. 

Anyway. All to say that I was pre-conditioned by cinema to be very open and interested in the works of Verdi and Wagner. But I have barely scratched the surface, yet!


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## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> ...Anyway, I love them all, and the relative rankings that Chillam has tallied surprised me.
> ...


It was all very close at the top. Das Rheingold got one recommendation that the others didn't, and Die Waukure two.


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## Luchesi

new but obsessed said:


> Indeed -- it's easy to return to your favorite pieces of music. I think because of my deep love for and formal education in cinema, the operas of Verdi and Wagner, and maybe Wagner more than most, have been extremely appealing. So it's been very easy for me to set aside the time to get into these works. My immediate understanding of them upon first encountering their operas was that these were the mega blockbusters of their day, and so I am quite drawn to them and their type of musical storytelling. More than anything else I've encountered (theater, literature, etc), opera seems to be the most direct forerunner of the cinematic arts, especially once sync sound became widespread by the early 1930s. Verdi, Wagner, and probably even more so Puccini were clearly influences on the film scores of the 20th century. And it's apparent to me that films like Doctor Zhivago, Lawrence of Arabia, or any number of grand epic cinematic tales are greatly indebted to opera.
> 
> Anyway. All to say that I was pre-conditioned by cinema to be very open and interested in the works of Verdi and Wagner. But I have barely scratched the surface, yet!


Thanks. That's a little different than most music fans. Up front, you have the background to appreciate what's presented.
And we're so lucky that so much is available (of high quality). I've found many famous operas on Youtube as animated and shortened cartoons. I don't know if they've been taken down by now.


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## new but obsessed

Luchesi said:


> Thanks. That's a little different than most music fans. Up front, you have the background to appreciate what's presented.
> And we're so lucky that so much is available (of high quality). I've found many famous operas on Youtube as animated and shortened cartoons. I don't know if they've been taken down by now.


Yes, I realize I've probably come into classical music _backwards_. I know almost zero about music theory and performance (I don't play anything, can't read music). And what I've loved about this forum and this thread is that it's showing me the music that I imagine most _normal_ classical music fans learned first either from music lessons or just from exploration.

Prior to opera I had never understood pre-20th century classical music. It's all very abstract. With opera, the music is grounded in a narrative that is very easy to follow. Just like a film score. And so it's easy to pair the emotions/ideas of the music with the emotions/ideas of that narrative. Once I understood how that worked -- the patterns and language of the music and how it paired to abstract ideas -- the rest of classical music opened up to me and it just clicked.


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## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> It was all very close at the top. Das Rheingold got one recommendation that the others didn't, and Die Waukure two.


I can see that Rhinegold may come across as OK in a highlights recording. However, I think it is particularly boring and bad opera - that long long second scene, for example. I would be reluctant to see it again in the opera house. The whole of Rhinegold and the prologue to Gotterdammerung are real low points IMO. If I were going to Gotterdammerung I’d deliberately get there late. 

Siegfried is great fun because it’s a fairy tale.


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## Kreisler jr

Rhinegold has a great beginning and end, the rest is a bit mixed with a lot of "exposition". I don't think it is ever staged apart from complete Rings (so are Siegfried and Goetterdaemmerung or only rarely but they would work better as separate pieces).


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## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> I can see that Rhinegold may come across as OK in a highlights recording....


Interesting you should say that. The recommendation Das Rheingold received that the others didn't wasn't for the full opera, but specifically for, "Act II, Entry of the Gods into Valhalla". I should perhaps have annotated the entry in the listing.


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## hammeredklavier

list=OLAK5uy_nMDfd9xtgFXhPrDkpY83FvdEnTHUWOxVI


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## new but obsessed

Chilham said:


> Interesting you should say that. The recommendation Das Rheingold received that the others didn't wasn't for the full opera, but specifically for, "Act II, Entry of the Gods into Valhalla". I should perhaps have annotated the entry in the listing.


I think everyone is in agreement. The tricky part is that Rhinegold is technically broken up not by act but by scene. Four scenes. And the awesome entry into Valhalla is the last scene. So that recommender is being imprecise with their writing

indeed the second scene, which is fricka, Wotan, the giants et al arguing about payment for Valhalla and learning about alberich is relatively dull. Very expositive and no action save the abduction of Freia


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## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Interesting you should say that. The recommendation Das Rheingold received that the others didn't wasn't for the full opera, but specifically for, "Act II, Entry of the Gods into Valhalla". I should perhaps have annotated the entry in the listing.


The overture is also interesting because it is an early example of one note music -- which is a major modern phemenon

Hold a single note or chord for a whole hour, and call it music. (good-music-guide.com)


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## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Interesting you should say that. The recommendation Das Rheingold received that the others didn't wasn't for the full opera, but specifically for, "Act II, Entry of the Gods into Valhalla". I should perhaps have annotated the entry in the listing.


Another problem is that even after they go into Valhalla you still have quite a chunk of opera to endure.


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## new but obsessed

Ah, I was enthralled by that Prelude/Vorspiel the very first moment I first saw the opera. Indeed, incredibly modern (or proto-modern), incredibly cinematic. Whether that's a great or terrible thing is in the ear of the beholder. It still remains something that draws me in each time i've come to The Ring. And I love how it tees up the Rhinemaidens -- their wailing/exalting of "Rhinegold Rhinegold" in the beginning and end of the opera are some of my favorite of all moments (maybe also because it's so easy to sing along? haha). I find it such evocative and exciting music, and just some of the best _high fantasy/mythological _music I've ever heard. _nerd alert_

And that ending, from Donner's creation of the rainbow bridge to Valhalla through the pleading cries of the Rhinemaidens includes so many of my favorite leitmotifs from the opera -- Valhalla, the Sword/Siegfried, Nature/Rhine -- I think it's a great ending. Not as wild as the ending of Gotterdammerung or as stunningly beautiful and disarming (and somewhat strange) as the ending of Siegfried, but still a great first night of four.

I am, to be sure, irredeemably biased and pre-disposed to love this music. So take all that with a heaping serving of salt.


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## justekaia

Mandryka said:


> Another problem is that even after they go into Valhalla you still have quite a chunk of opera to endure.


Only a few operas can succeed to be riveting from start to finish, especially the long ones. I agree with you that the libretto is not great which causes the boredom in the middle. However i have a soft spot for this opera because of the opening, that is a harbinger of future music and the end which is just great.


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## Mandryka

justekaia said:


> Only a few operas can succeed to be riveting from start to finish, especially the long ones. I agree with you that the libretto is not great which causes the boredom in the middle. However i have a soft spot for this opera because of the opening, that is a harbinger of future music and the end which is just great.


This is one reason I think that Pagliacci is a great great opera - not a dull moment in it.
But yes, I agree that the opening is astonishing.


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## new but obsessed

Mandryka said:


> This is one reason I think that Pagliacci is a great great opera - not a dull moment in it.
> But yes, I agree that the opening is astonishing.


Man. I’d love to see Pagliacci. I’ve only ever heard rave reviews


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## RICK RIEKERT

justekaia said:


> Only a few operas can succeed to be riveting from start to finish, especially the long ones.


Beecham; “Your Majesty, can you tell me, which is your favourite opera?”
King Edward VII: “Bohème”.
Beecham: “May I ask you Majesty, why”?
Edward VII: ”It’s the shortest.”


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## Chilham

Well, I've enjoyed this week. Yes, I've resorted to highlights of many of Wagner's works, and yes, I found Gounod's Faust a haven of melody that I'd been missing earlier in the week - if only he'd composed more opera and fewer dreary masses. Verdi? The jury's out for me. I very much enjoy what I know and am familiar with, but I don't find the full works so appealing. Maybe I need more time.

We find ourselves at the half-way point of our journey. I've edited the first post to include links to the full listing for each week, and to provide a little signposting to what we'll cover each week in the coming six months. 

Up tomorrow, Bruckner, Franck and Smetana, together with their contemporaries born before Brahms.


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## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Well, I've enjoyed this week. Yes, I've resorted to highlights of many of Wagner's works, and yes, I found Gounod's Faust a haven of melody that I'd been missing earlier in the week - if only he'd composed more opera and fewer dreary masses. Verdi? The jury's out for me. I very much enjoy what I know and am familiar with, but I don't find the full works so appealing. Maybe I need more time.
> 
> We find ourselves at the half-way point of our journey. I've edited the first post to include links to the full listing for each week, and to provide a little signposting to what we'll cover each week in the coming six months.
> 
> Up tomorrow, Bruckner, Franck and Smetana, together with their contemporaries born before Brahms.


Why no Otello or Falstaff?


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## new but obsessed

Gah! One week cannot contain all this music. haha. I'm racing through excerpts of Tannhauser* then Norma and Parsifal. So much less of them than I want to listen to. I'm hoping I can still manage to squeeze in some Tales of Hoffmann before we turn the page to the next stuff! (Indeed, sorry, Falstaff -- but I did get to Otello and Aida!)

*most of the recorded interpretations I can find on Apple Music of the Tannhauser overture to be less than stellar (maybe too fast?). I really love the Sinopoli/Philharmonia/Covent Garden one (the disc with Placido Domingo). Anyone else have other faves?


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## Mandryka

Here’s my favourite Tanhäuser


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## new but obsessed

that's awesome stuff! did this not make the earlier lists of troubadour music??

edit: found that record on Apple Music! thanks for the tip!

edit2: i managed to get thru half of level 3 (excerpts and highlights only), including some tracks from Tales of Hoffmann. Wow is Offenbach's music fun! I'd love to see that live!


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## Chilham

Some big old symphonies coming your way this week. I've enlisted the support of Simone Young and the Hamburg Philharmonic to help me through.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
*Smetana, Bedřich*: *Má Vlast*

*









Level 3*
*Bruckner, Anton*: Symphony No. 8










Smetana, Bedrich: The Bartered Bride esp. Dance of the Comedians










Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 7










*Franck, César*: Violin Sonata in A major, FWV 8 esp. IV. Allegretto poco mosso










Bruckner, Anton: *Symphony No. 4*

*







*

Franck, César: Symphony in D minor










*Level 4*
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 9
*Strauss, Johan II*: *An Der Schönen Blauen Donau*
Franck, César: Piano Quintet in F Minor, M. 7, FWV 7 esp. I. Molto moderato quasilento










Smetana, Bedřich: *String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life"*

*







*

Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 6
Strauss, Johan II: *Die Fledermaus*
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 5
Franck, César: Variations Symphonique for Piano and Orchestra
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 3
Strauss, Johan II: Geschichten Aus Dem Wienerwald
Bruckner, Anton: Mass No. 2











*Level 5*
Bruckner, Anton: Te Deum
Strauss, Johan II: Kaiserwalzer
Bruckner, Anton: Mass No. 1










Bruckner, Anton: Motets esp. Locus Iste, Os Justi
Franck, César: Three Organ Chorals










Bruckner, Anton: Mass No. 3
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 1

*Level 6*
Franck, César: Prelude, Chorale and Fugue
Bruckner, Anton: String Quintet
*Goldmark, Karl*: Rustic Wedding Symphony
Strauss, Johan II: Frühlingsstimmen Walzer
Franck, César: Panis Angelicus
Strauss, Johan II: Der Zigeunerbaron Polka
*Lalo, Éduard*: Symphonie Espagnole
Franck, César: Le Chasseur Maudit
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony in D Minor "Die Nulle"
*Vieuxtemps, Henri*: Violin Concerto No. 5
Franck, César: Les Béatitudes

*Level 7*
Strauss, Johan II: Morgenblätter
Raff, Joachim: Symphony No. 5 "Lénor"
Goldmark, Karl: Violin Concerto No. 1
Franck, César: Aria und Finale
Reinecke, Carl: Flute Sonata in E minor, op. 167 "Undine"
Franck, César: *String Quartet in D Major*
Franck, César: Les Éolides
*Reinecke, Carl*: Flute Concerto in D Op. 283


Honourable mentions:
Gottschalk, Louis Moreau: La Bananier, The Last Hope, The Dying Poet, A Night in the Tropics, Pasquinade, Louisiana Quartet
Foster, Stephen: Oh! Sussanah, Beautiful Dreamer, My Old Kentucky Home, Camptown Races
Viardot, Pauline: Haï Luli, Le Dernier Sorcier
Strauss, Franz: Nocturno, Op. 7
Reyer, Ernest: Sigurd
Minkus, Ludwig: La Bayadère
*Rubenstein, Anton*: Piano Concerto No. 4, Symphony No. 2 "Ocean"


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## new but obsessed

Initial impressions:

I really like Smetana. I think I just have a soft spot for nature/landscape/outdoors music, with that nostalgia for the pure and rustic. From Vivaldi to Beethoven's Pastoral to Dvorak. And Ma Vlast is right there in my wheelhouse. And I like his melodies, which can be quite catchy!

I'm part way through Bruckner's 7th. I've listened to his 8th. I think both are undoubtably good. I like Romantic era music. And these recordings by Young and Philharmoniker Hamburg are beautifully made. This is my first exposure to his work, but I'd long heard him described as the logical extension of the tradition from Beethoven thru Wagner, two composers whose works I love. And in bits and chunks (but not whole movements), it certainly sounds like Golden Age Hollywood film music, another soft spot of mine. 

I guess I just wonder if Bruckner had taken it a bit too far into the "Romantic" that this music isn't as excellent as it might have been. Or maybe it's just unfair to compare anyone to Beethoven. While the symphonies 7 and 8 can meander and jump from emotion to emotion (unlike a tight Classical piece), it doesn't lose me like some of the works we covered in the Berlioz and Schumann weeks. But there aren't any moments that conjure up emotions of extreme excitement or beauty like in so many of the other works we've recently covered (Verdi, Wagner, Mendelssohn, and even Smetana). I'm "thinking aloud here" (in writing). But is it that Bruckner's ideas and emotions are a little too obvious, or too on-the-nose? I don't know why I felt the compulsion to write about all this. There's something in listening to this, again, undoubtably good music, that makes me wish it was a notch or two better.

Would love to know what folks who love or understand Bruckner would have to say to contextualize this music.


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## Chilham

There are myriad versions of Bruckner's symphonies. I don't pretend to know the ins-and-outs but I loved Young's version of his 7th. Your comment on 20th C. film music resonates with me too.

For reasons beyond my recollection, I find myself with five different conductors/orchestras' Bruckner 9th (Abbado, Giulini, Honeck, Rattle, and Young) so may dedicate a day to it later in the week and try a few movements from each.


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## Mandryka

I’m listening to Klemperer play Bruckner 5/1 now, such spacious music - Bruckner is as original as Satie IMO, the music remains challenging and enigmatic today, much more so than Beethoven’s. I think that’s good.

I’d be interested in people’s thoughts about the connections between these Bruckner orchestral movements and Schubert’s more static music - the G minor quartet for example, and the D840 piano sonata.


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## justekaia

Chilham said:


> There are myriad versions of Bruckner's symphonies. I don't pretend to know the ins-and-outs but I loved Young's version of his 7th. Your comment on 20th C. film music resonates with me too.
> 
> For reasons beyond my recollection, I find myself with five different conductors/orchestras' Bruckner 9th (Abbado, Giulini, Honeck, Rattle, and Young) so may dedicate a day to it later in the week and try a few movements from each.


Bruckner is a special case in the history of music because of the great structural qualities of his work, which culminate in his 9th symphony, a symphony full of philosophical content. Other favourites are his symphonies 5, 7, 8. Harnoncourt did a great job with the fifth and Jansons with the marvellous BRSO would be my choice for the last three. Haitink's performance in the 9th is also worth a listen.


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## justekaia

Chilham said:


> Some big old symphonies coming your way this week. I've enlisted the support of Simone Young and the Hamburg Philharmonic to help me through.
> 
> *Level 1*
> No works
> 
> *Level 2*
> *Smetana, Bedřich*: *Má Vlast*
> 
> *
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Level 3*
> *Bruckner, Anton*: Symphony No. 8
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> Smetana, Bedrich: The Bartered Bride esp. Dance of the Comedians
> 
> 
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> 
> Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 7
> 
> 
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> 
> *Franck, César*: Violin Sonata in A major, FWV 8 esp. IV. Allegretto poco mosso
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Bruckner, Anton: *Symphony No. 4*
> 
> *
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> *
> 
> Franck, César: Symphony in D minor
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> *Level 4*
> Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 9
> *Strauss, Johan II*: *An Der Schönen Blauen Donau*
> Franck, César: Piano Quintet in F Minor, M. 7, FWV 7 esp. I. Molto moderato quasilento
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> Smetana, Bedřich: *String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life"*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 6
> Strauss, Johan II: *Die Fledermaus*
> Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 5
> Franck, César: Variations Symphonique for Piano and Orchestra
> Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 3
> Strauss, Johan II: Geschichten Aus Dem Wienerwald
> Bruckner, Anton: Mass No. 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> *Level 5*
> Bruckner, Anton: Te Deum
> Strauss, Johan II: Kaiserwalzer
> Bruckner, Anton: Mass No. 1
> 
> 
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> Bruckner, Anton: Motets esp. Locus Iste, Os Justi
> Franck, César: Three Organ Chorals
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> Bruckner, Anton: Mass No. 3
> Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 1
> 
> *Level 6*
> Franck, César: Prelude, Chorale and Fugue
> Bruckner, Anton: String Quintet
> *Goldmark, Karl*: Rustic Wedding Symphony
> Strauss, Johan II: Frühlingsstimmen Walzer
> Franck, César: Panis Angelicus
> Strauss, Johan II: Der Zigeunerbaron Polka
> *Lalo, Éduard*: Symphonie Espagnole
> Franck, César: Le Chasseur Maudit
> Bruckner, Anton: Symphony in D Minor "Die Nulle"
> *Vieuxtemps, Henri*: Violin Concerto No. 5
> Franck, César: Les Béatitudes
> 
> *Level 7*
> Strauss, Johan II: Morgenblätter
> Raff, Joachim: Symphony No. 5 "Lénor"
> Goldmark, Karl: Violin Concerto No. 1
> Franck, César: Aria und Finale
> Reinecke, Carl: Flute Sonata in E minor, op. 167 "Undine"
> Franck, César: *String Quartet in D Major*
> Franck, César: Les Éolides
> *Reinecke, Carl*: Flute Concerto in D Op. 283
> 
> 
> Honourable mentions:
> Gottschalk, Louis Moreau: La Bananier, The Last Hope, The Dying Poet, A Night in the Tropics, Pasquinade, Louisiana Quartet
> Foster, Stephen: Oh! Sussanah, Beautiful Dreamer, My Old Kentucky Home, Camptown Races
> Viardot, Pauline: Haï Luli, Le Dernier Sorcier
> Strauss, Franz: Nocturno, Op. 7
> Reyer, Ernest: Sigurd
> Minkus, Ludwig: La Bayadère
> *Rubenstein, Anton*: Piano Concerto No. 4, Symphony No. 2 "Ocean"


There are lots of great and joyful music in this week's picks.
Smetana is an outstanding composer with his masterful, melodic "Ma Vlast" which even bewitched Karajan who gave us a superb version. His two string quartets are very finely crafted works.
Lalo is an old favourite, a bridge between Berlioz's romantic symphonie fantastique and the impressionistic works from Debussy (Iberia) and Ravel (Rhapsodie espagnole). Dance rhythms abound in the symphony from the segeduillas to the malaguena in the final rondo. If you get the version with Repin on the violin you are in for a treat.
Franck's music can be miraculous. Prélude, chorale and fugue is one of those timeless pieces, like his violin sonata.
Reinecke is a remarkable composer but i would have opted for other pieces, like the cello sonatas, his piano quintet and his string trio.


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## Chilham

justekaia said:


> There are lots of great and joyful music in this week's picks....


This week is ticking a lot of boxes for me. One of the highest-rated weeks for me personally so far this year.


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## Mandryka

Well I just listened to Haitink play Bruckner 6 in Dresden, I must say, this music is not my cup of tea one bit.


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## new but obsessed

this is the first I've ever heard of Franck. I really like his Level 3 stuff (Sonata FW 8, Symphony in D). The Symphony recording by Muti/Philadelphia even came with a bonus track: _Le Chasseur maudit _and even that one is up my alley. 

Strong week all around! 

Hopefully I'll have some extra time to peruse the Level 4 works too.


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## EvaBaron

new but obsessed said:


> this is the first I've ever heard of Franck. I really like his Level 3 stuff (Sonata FW 8, Symphony in D). The Symphony recording by Muti/Philadelphia even came with a bonus track: _Le Chasseur maudit _and even that one is up my alley.
> 
> Strong week all around!
> 
> Hopefully I'll have some extra time to peruse the Level 4 works too.


You should try his violin sonata and I would recommend Walter’s iconic recording of his symphony


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## justekaia

Mandryka said:


> Well I just listened to Haitink play Bruckner 6 in Dresden, I must say, this music is not my cup of tea one bit.


Plse note that Haitink passed away in October 2021.


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## hammeredklavier

Les Béatitudes


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## RICK RIEKERT

justekaia said:


> Plse note that Haitink passed away in October 2021.


Unless Mandryka has taken up a new career in necromancy, methinks he’s referring to the live Haitink reading from Dresden in 2003.


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## Mandryka

Career in hauntology maybe.










I should say I've always had a problem with Bruckner 6. I don't know why, other people seem to like it. I went to that Haitink recording because someone said to me how good it was but, no, not for me!


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## new but obsessed

justekaia said:


> Smetana is an outstanding composer with his masterful, melodic "Ma Vlast" which even bewitched Karajan who gave us a superb version. His two string quartets are very finely crafted works.


I'm listening to Smetana's String Quartet no 1 "From My Life" now. It's beautiful! And I've read a little bit about its autobiographical background. Astounding!


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## pianozach

justekaia said:


> Plse note that Haitink passed away in October 2021.


Oh. Well, then.

Now that he's dead his music is much better?


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## BBSVK

What do the levels mean ? Panis angelicus by Franck was level 6. But it is a popular piece easy to like.


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## new but obsessed

BBSVK said:


> What do the levels mean ? Panis angelicus by Franck was level 6. But it is a popular piece easy to like.


the first few pages have scattered descriptions of the structure. But the clearest rubric is post #42. Hopefully this link works:









A journey through classical music from medieval to...


Ars Nova to come next week. I should have been more specific in my description. Could you perhaps give us a bit more on what to expect each day or week? You mentioned there would be about 100 works per week. You listed 1 work today. How often will you list works and how many works will you...




www.talkclassical.com





Basically it’s like metacritic or rotten tomatoes. Curated “top critic” recommendations, filtered through the favorite works/composers of top members of this forum.

That’s my understanding of this exercise


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## Chilham

BBSVK said:


> What do the levels mean ?...


Much as nbs says, I reviewed a range of sources for recommendations of what to listen to. These ranged from classical radio stations, books by respected authors, publications and websites. In all there were 36 sources for these recommendations.

The levels (I really wanted to use the word, "Tier" but that was already used elsewhere)

Level 1 - works which received 22 or more recommendations
Level 2 - 16-21 recommendations
Level 3 - 11-15 recommendations
Level 4 - 7-10 recommendations
Level 5 - 4-6 recommendations
Level 6 - 2-3 recommendations only showing those works that also appear on the TC Most Recommended list
Level 7 - 1 recommendation only showing those works that also appear on the TC Most Recommended list
Honourable mentions - composers with recommended works in Levels 6 & 7 that do not appear on the TC Most Recommended list


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## new but obsessed

To clarify: From levels 1-5, the TC Most Recommended List has no bearing on these rankings? It's only at levels 6, 7, and hon. mention that works can be salvaged by TalkClassical?

Or is it the case that every work listed in your rankings must at some point have been most recommended on this forum?


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## Chilham

Here's Brahms. An editorial decision was necessary whether to spread his works over a couple of weeks, interspersed with other composers, or to give him a week to himself. I think Brahms' music is diverse enough to carry it off. We'll see.

*Level 1*
*Brahms, Johannes*: Ein Deutsches Requiem










Brahms, Johannes: *Symphony No. 4*










*Level 2*
Brahms, Johannes: Piano Concerto No. 2










Brahms, Johannes: Symphony No. 1










*Level 3*
Brahms, Johannes: Clarinet Quintet










Brahms, Johannes: Violin Concerto










Brahms, Johannes: *Piano Concerto No. 1*










Brahms, Johannes: Piano Quintet Op. 34










Brahms, Johannes: Symphony No. 2










Brahms, Johannes: *Symphony No. 3*










Brahms, Johannes: Klavierstücke op. 118 (6 pieces)
Brahms, Johannes: *Piano Trio No. 1 Op. 8*










Brahms, Johannes: Klavierstücke op. 117 (3 intermezzi) esp. No. 2
Brahms, Johannes: Klavierstücke op. 119 (4 pieces)










*Level 4*
Brahms, Johannes: Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1 "Rain" esp. I. Vivace, Ma Non Troppo
Brahms, Johannes: Klavierstücke Op. 116
Brahms, Johannes: Hungarian Dances
Brahms, Johannes: Piano Quartet No. 1
Brahms, Johannes: Cello Sonata No. 1 Op. 38 esp. I. Allegro non troppo
Brahms, Johannes: "Double" Concerto in A Minor for Violin and Cello
Brahms, Johannes: Variations On A Theme By Haydn
Brahms, Johannes: Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 3
Brahms, Johannes: Vier Ernste Gesänge (Four Serious Songs)
Brahms, Johannes: Piano Quartet No. 3 "Werther"
Brahms, Johannes: Clarinet Trio
Brahms, Johannes: Violin Sonata No. 2 Op. 100
Brahms, Johannes: String Sextet No. 2
Brahms, Johannes: Piano Quartet No. 2
Brahms, Johannes: Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Handel
Brahms, Johannes: *Academic Festival Overture*
Brahms, Johannes: String Quartet No. 3 Op.67
Brahms, Johannes: *String Quartet Op. 51 No. 1*
Brahms, Johannes: Tragic Overture
Brahms, Johannes: *String Quartet Op. 51 No. 2*

*Level 5*
Brahms, Johannes: Piano Sonata No. 3
Brahms, Johannes: Sonata for Clarinet & Piano No. 1 & 2
Brahms, Johannes: Cello Sonata No. 2
Brahms, Johannes: String Sextet No 1 Op 18
Brahms, Johannes: Alto Rhapsody
Brahms, Johannes: Serenade No. 2
Brahms, Johannes: Horn Trio
Brahms, Johannes: Serenade No. 1
Brahms, Johannes: Variations on a Theme by Paganini
Brahms, Johannes: 18 Liebeslieder-Walzer

*Level 6*
Brahms, Johannes: String Quintet No. 1 Op. 88
Brahms, Johannes: String Quintet No. 2 Op. 111
Brahms, Johannes: 2 Rhapsodies Op. 79
Brahms, Johannes: Schicksalslied
Brahms, Johannes: Wiegenlied "Lullaby" Op. 49 No. 4
Brahms, Johannes: Two Songs for Voice, Viola and Piano Op. 91
Brahms, Johannes: Nänie
Brahms, Johannes: Gesang der Parzen
Brahms, Johannes: Ziguenerlieder
Brahms, Johannes: Romances from Tieck's Liebesgeschichte Die Schöne Magelone Op. 33

*Level 7*
Brahms, Johannes: Piano Trio No. 2
Brahms, Johannes: Balades Op. 10
Brahms, Johannes: Eight Piano Pieces Op. 76
Brahms, Johannes: Songs (5), op. 105 esp. "Wie Melodien zieht es mir" and "Immer leiser wird mein Schlummer"
Brahms, Johannes: Chorale Preludes Op. 122
Brahms, Johannes: Scherzo in E-flat Minor
Brahms, Johannes: Begräbnisgesang
Brahms, Johannes: Variations on a Theme by Robert Schumann Op.9


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## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> To clarify: From levels 1-5, the TC Most Recommended List has no bearing on these rankings? It's only at levels 6, 7, and hon. mention that works can be salvaged by TalkClassical?...


Correct. Levels 1-5 are not influenced by this forum's listings except that one of the 36 sources of recommendations was the "Compilation of TC Top-recommended lists". Back around Easter, I set an extra threshold for those works with less than four recommendations in that they must also appear in Science's listing. It's just to ensure we have a manageable list.


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## Mandryka

I shall join you in this by listening to the five op 105 songs in vol 8 of the Michael Raucheisen edition.


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## justekaia

pianozach said:


> Oh. Well, then.
> 
> Now that he's dead his music is much better?


my note to mandryka was a kind of request for clarification as his post was a bit sibylline. that being said the death of a conductor is a good opportunity to take stock of his achievements and reassess him/her. i have indicated that Haitink's version of Bruckner's 9th symphony is great.that does not imply that he is one of the best conductor of all times. but some of his performances were top-notch especially with the RCO which for your guidance is one of the best orchestras ever.


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## Mandryka

justekaia said:


> my note to mandryka was a kind of request for clarification as his post was a bit sibylline. that being said the death of a conductor is a good opportunity to take stock of his achievements and reassess him/her. i have indicated that Haitink's version of Bruckner's 9th symphony is great.that does not imply that he is one of the best conductor of all times. but some of his performances were top-notch especially with the RCO which for your guidance is one of the best orchestras ever.


I know a couple of people who would say that the Haitink Dresden Bruckner 6 is one of his greatest achievements and one of the very top performances on record. It's just me, I've never managed to get into a positive relation with this symphony. Even in my days of listening to lots of Bruckner (a long time ago!), I never got on well with this particular symphony.


----------



## Mandryka

Cziffra transcribed the Hungarian dances for two hands. There is an extraordinary live recorded performance at Senlis, imagine giving an concert which consisted entirely of these transcriptions. This recording on youtube -- I'm not sure where it's from -- is certainly not at all bad. 

Brahms/Cziffra - 15 Hungarian Dances (Audio+Sheet) [Cziffra] - YouTube


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## Mandryka

I used to listen a lot to Kipnis in the Serious Songs

Alexander Kipnis; "VIER ERNSTE GESANGE"; Johannes Brahms - YouTube

Then I discovered Gerhaher. What to make of this -- is it bad taste? Whatever it is, it's almost like a caricature of Gerhaher's art -- I love it.

Christian Gerhaher; "VIER ERNSTE GESANGE"; Johannes Brahms - YouTube

And here's Woldgang Rihm's response to these songs 

Wolfgang Rihm-Ernster Gesang - YouTube


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## Mandryka

JOHANNES BRAHMS: CLAUDIO ABBADO - EIN DEUTSCHES REQUIEM OP. 45 - YouTube

This is my favourite requiem. Somehow the video of the performance helps. It's a shame the whole thing isn't on youtube.

I first saw Terfel sing Jochanaan, and he looked very much like he does here. It was a great night at the opera.

Here's a performance of the requiem with two pieces by Wolfgang Rihm interspersed -- I think to good effect

Brahms "Ein Deutsches Requiem" I Christoph Schäfer - YouTube 

Rihm says that the analogy is this: he wants his music in the context of the Brahms requiem to be like hanging four large Aselm Kiefer paintings in a Gothic burial chapel -- unfortunately there are only two of them in that youtube


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## Mandryka

Brahms Pico 2, along with Bartok Pico 3 and The Mozart Requiem, were my favourite pieces when I was 18! My father used to have this old recording by Elly Ney and Max Fiedler. Ney is amazing really in this, tremendous sense of rhythm, swing -- listen to the second movement, there's tremendous life there. 

Elly Ney plays Brahms Concerto No. 2 in B flat Op. 83 - YouTube


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## Chilham

A short interlude from Brahms for me today. Off to Glyndebourne for The Marriage of Figaro; a birthday treat for Mrs. Chilham. Good job I tried on my dinner jacket and trousers first thing this morning. My Covid-waistline had me scurrying into town to acquire a new pair of trousers!


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## pianozach

I think that *Tchaikovsky* is great driving music, especially the ballets.


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## Chilham

Hera Park. Oh, my goodness. What a performer!

Lovely afternoon/evening. Glyndebourne does not disappoint.


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## new but obsessed

Sounds lovely! I'm dying to see Figaro!

I won't quite get a full opera this summer. But I'm very excited to next week be attending a concert version of Die Walküre Act 3 at the Hollywood Bowl with Dudamel/LA Phil. Intrigued to see what Yuval Sharon will be creating for the show.

PS: I started this weekend quite down on Brahms. I probably was just stressed out and distracted. But I've made the effort to do a repeat listen of the two symphonies. Certainly much better this time around! In the spirit of perseverance, I'll also try to revisit the Bruckner symphonies I was bored by during the last go-around.


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## Chilham

Getting relatively little time to listen this week as moving house on Friday, so packing obviously takes priority. What I have listened to, the top-three levels, has been very enjoyable. Perhaps Piano Concerto No. 2 was the only disappointment, given the high number of recommendations. I preferred Piano Concerto No. 1, the Piano Quintet and Piano Trio No. 1.


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## new but obsessed

what a coincidence! I was packing all of last week and got all of my stuff into a small moving container less than 48 hours ago. Probably explains my grousing about Bruckner and Brahms. As expected, in the hours since completing the move, all this music has sounds much better, even though my preferred speakers are packed away and I'm sleeping on a crummy air mattress. 

I've revisited the same recordings of Bruckner's 4th and 8th. I liked them much better! 

As for Brahms, I also preferred Piano Concerto 1 over 2. I really enjoyed his Clarinet Concerto and his Symphony 1 (esp 1st movement). Up next, the Violin Concerto and Piano Quintet. 

Best of luck with the move!


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## Chilham

On my personal appreciation 'meter', Brahms strolls past the other composers in the group where I've listened to between 25 and 50 pieces (Haydn, Handel and Schubert).

Next-up, the rest of the mid-Romantic composers born 1834-1839 to include all of, "The Mighty Handful". I know I'm going to have a lot more time this week for listening and there's some beautiful music heading our way.

*Level 1*
*Bizet, Georges*: *Carmen*

*Level 2*
*Mussorgsky, Modest*: *Pictures at an Exhibition*
*Rimsky-Korsakov, Nikolai*: *Schéhérazade, Op. 35*
*Bruch, Max*: Violin Concerto No. 1 in G Minor, Op. 26
*Saint-Saëns, Camille*: *Carnaval of Animals*

*Level 3*
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Symphony No. 3 in C minor "Organ"
*Delibes, Léo*: Lakmé esp. Flower Duet
Mussorgsky, Modest: *Night on the Bald Mountain*
Mussorgsky, Modest: Boris Godunov
*Borodin, Alexander*: Prinz Igor esp. Polovtsian Dances
Delibes, Léo: Coppéllia

*Level 4*
Borodin, Alexander: *String Quartet No.2 in D major esp. Notturno: Andante*
Saint-Saëns, Camille: *Danse Macabre*
Rimsky-Korsakov, Nikolai: Capriccio Espagnole
Bizet, Georges: L'Arlésienne Suite Nos. 1 & 2
Borodin, Alexander: Symphony No. 2
Bruch, Max: Kol Nidrei
Borodin, Alexander: *In the Steppes of Central Asia*
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Samson and Delilah esp. Mon Couer S'Ouvre a Ta Voix
Bizet, Georges: Les Pecheurs de Perles esp. Au Fond du Temple Saint
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Piano Concerto No. 2 in G minor
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso
Mussorgsky, Modest: Songs and Dances of Death
Rimsky-Korsakov, Nikolai: The Tale of Tsar Saltan esp. The Flight Of The Bumble Bee

*Level 5*
Bruch, Max: Scottish Fantasy
Bizet, Georges: Symphony in C
Delibes, Léo: Sylvia esp. Pizzicati
Rimsky-Korsakov, Nikolai: Russian Easter Festival Chorus
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Cello Concerto No. 1
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Violin Concerto No. 3
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Piano Concerto No. 4
Bruch, Max: Symphony No. 3
Mussorgsky, Modest: Khovanshchina
Mussorgsky, Modest: Sunless

*Level 6*
Borodin, Alexander: Symphony No. 1
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Violin Sonata No. 1
Bizet, Georges: Jeux d'Enfants Suite
Rimsky-Korsakov, Nikolai: Sadko
*Wieniawski, Henryk*: Violin Concerto No. 2 Op. 22
*Balakirev, Mily*: Islamey
Rimsky-Korsakov, Nikolai: Symphony No. 2 "Antar"
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Havanaise
Waldteufel, Émile: "The Skaters' Waltz"
Balakirev, Mily : Tamara
Rimsky-Korsakov, Nikolai: Symphony No. 1
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Septet
Rimsky-Korsakov, Nikolai: The Invisible City of Kitezh Suite

*Level 7*
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Piano Concerto No. 5 "Egyptian"
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Clarinet Sonata in E-flat major, Op. 167 esp. I. Allegretto
Balakirev, Mily : Symphony No. 1
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Phaéton Op. 39
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Africa Fantasy
*Paine, John Knowles*: Symphony No. 1
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Le Rouet d'Omphale Op. 31
Smith, Alice Mary: Symphony in C minor esp. IV. Allegro Maestoso
Delibes, Léo: Les Filles de Cadix
Rimsky-Korsakov, Nikolai: Overture to May Night
Balakirev, Mily : Grande Fantaisie on Russian Folksongs
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Marche Héroique
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Basoon Sonata Op. 168
Reubke, Julius: Piano Sonata in B-Flat
Saint-Saëns, Camille: La Jeunesse d'Hercule Op.50

*Honourable mentions: *
*Cui, César*: Kaleidoscope esp. No. 9 Orientale
White Lafitte, José Silvestre: Violin Concerto in F-sharp Minor esp. ii. Adagio Ma Non Troppo
Goetz, Herman: Piano Concerto No. 1, No. 2 & Symphony in F Major
Rheinberger, Josef: Abendlied - Evening Song


----------



## Chilham

I watched Elīna Garanča's Carmen not so long ago, so it was just the suite for me today.









Bizet: Carmen
François Leleux, Scottish Chamber Orchestra

After the rugby, I'll give these a spin.









Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition
Behzod Abduraimov









Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition
Jos van Immerseel, Anima Eterna Brugge









Rimsky-Korsakov: Scheherazade
Vasily Petrenko, Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra









Bruch: Violin Concerto No. 1
Andrew Litton, Bergen Philharmonic Orchestra, Vadim Gluzman


----------



## Mandryka

Well that prompted me to listen to Boris Christoff singing some Mussorgsky songs. I haven’t listened to this stuff since maybe 1990. Or maybe 1985. His voice made me jump out of my seat! They don’t sing ‘em like that any more.

The songs are very highly thought of, and probably rightly so.

I did see the Tarkovsky production of Boris more recently than that, at Covent Garden - if there’s a video it’s probably a good one to catch - conservative realism but rather beautiful, not very challenging in terms of conceptual regietheatre.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen Carmen the opera, I remember checking some other things by Bizet - The Pearl Fishers. But it seemed very repetitive music. The symphony is perfectly OK, a lollipop à la Beecham really.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Well that prompted me to listen to Boris Christoff singing some Mussorgsky songs. I haven’t listened to this stuff since maybe 1990. Or maybe 1985. His voice made me jump out of my seat! They don’t sing ‘em like that any more.
> 
> The songs are very highly thought of, and probably rightly so.
> 
> I did see the Tarkovsky production of Boris more recently than that, at Covent Garden - if there’s a video it’s probably a good one to catch - conservative realism but rather beautiful, not very challenging in terms of conceptual regietheatre.
> 
> I don’t think I’ve ever seen Carmen the opera, I remember checking some other things by Bizet - The Pearl Fishers. But it seemed very repetitive music. The symphony is perfectly OK, a lollipop à la Beecham really.


Cool. I listened to some of this earlier. I love 4 Songs, Op. 40: No. 1 "When the Golden Cornfield Waves". So evocative.


----------



## Mandryka

Scheherazade is a good one to listen to very very loud, I used to have an LP in some wonderfully unnatural thing called Phase Four Stereo. It’s just an exciting sonic experience.


----------



## Kreisler jr

There is a Zefirelli production (i.e. rather square and traditional but easy to follow) from Vienna 1978 with Kleiber, Domingo, Obratsova


----------



## new but obsessed

I recently saw my friend's sister perform as Carmen in an abridged small local outdoor theater production. It was cute and she sang it well. Such awesome tunes! Always happy to revisit this music. And I expect I will one day catch a properly grand staging of it one day.

Pictures at an Exhibition is something I'd explored prior -- some really good "pictures" but a little uneven, I think. 

But man, I wasn't quite prepared for Sheherazade. I'd certainly heard bits of the 1st movement, probably on the radio. This music is excellent! 

skipping ahead, I've definitely listened all too many times to the ridiculously pretty Flower Duet from Lakme. I hope I'll have time to dig into other excerpts from that opera this week.

After quite a few weeks that were each dominated by a select few bigger-than-life generation-defining forces, it's exciting to be back in a week with a wider selection of composers


----------



## pianozach

*Carmen
Pictures
Sheherazade*

All top notch, I think.

*Pictures* is a bit unusual, as they were composed as a Suite for Piano, but really gained their sea legs as an suite orchestrated by *Ravel*. I used to have the piano score, and made a half-hearted effort to learn the whole thing. I got pretty close, but, man, there are some real handfuls of note clusters in it. I eventually became disenchanted with learning. No one really wants to hear someone play the original version - they want one of the orchestrated versions.

I just listened to the *Overture* from *Carmen Jones* (a *Oscar Hammerstein III* reworking of *Carmen*). Pretty much an edited version of the original *Overture*.


----------



## Chilham

A few short pieces for me this morning.









Saint-Saëns: Danse Macabre
Luben Yordanoff, Orchestre De Paris, Daniel Barenboim









Delibes: Coppélia
Neeme Järvi, Royal Scottish National Orchestra









Bruch: Kol Nidrei
Ilan Volkov, BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, Natalie Clein









Borodin: In the Steppes of Central Asia
Valery Gergiev, Mariinsky Orchestra









Mussorgsky: Night on the Bald Mountain
Kirill Karabits, Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra

And I'll listen to the Overture, Polovtsian Dances and final acts of Prinz Igor later. I loved the first acts earlier in the year but it's too much to do the whole opera in a single 'sitting'.









Borodin (comp. Rimsky-Korsakov, Glazunov): Prinz Igor
Valery Gergiev, St. Petersburg Orchestra of the Kirov Opera


----------



## Mandryka

I've seen some of these things. I saw Copelia in the Caracalla Baths in Rome -- appalling acoustics! I remember that right in the middle of the ballet someone walked through the isles selling drinks and ices. And I saw Prince Igor in London, I thought the Polovtsian Dances were probably the only interesting bit.

That Kirill Karabits CD has The Little Russian symphony -- it's quite fun. Little Russia = Ukraine. It's full of catchy Ukrainian folk tunes.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> I've seen some of these things. I saw Copelia in the Caracalla Baths in Rome -- appalling acoustics! I remember that right in the middle of the ballet someone walked through the isles selling drinks and ices....


😮



Mandryka said:


> ... I saw Prince Igor in London, I thought the Polovtsian Dances were probably the only interesting bit....


I read there was a long, boring bit in Prinz Igor (Act 3?) which Gergiev removed, broke-up, and spread throughout the other acts to improve the experience. Not sure how accurate that is.



Mandryka said:


> ... That Kirill Karabits CD has The Little Russian symphony -- it's quite fun. Little Russia = Ukraine. It's full of catchy Ukrainian folk tunes.


Looking forward to that next week.


----------



## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> There is a Zefirelli production (i.e. rather square and traditional but easy to follow) from Vienna 1978 with Kleiber, Domingo, Obratsova



Here's another way of dealing with the music


----------



## new but obsessed

I would be down to catch some Matthew Bourne! Funny I was just hanging with an ex ballerina and it was fun to pick her brain about Bourne and ballet in general. (It’s funny to note that when I asked her what her fave ballet was she knew the piece and the choreographer but not the composer — certainly a different focus than music fans).

Just now leaving an interesting green screen-ed live VFX-video staging of Act 3 of Die Walkure at the Hollywood Bowl. All set in a post-destoryed world where everything has been uploaded into a Tron-like sci fi world. The valkyries rode tron bikes. The performers were in costumes, but slightly were metal rather than traditional, and singing and acting in front of a giant green screen. And with video they could do impossible things like make Wotan gigantic or have them flying in those sci-fi bikes through impossible Tron-like skies. Otherwise, the music was straight from the opera. Pretty fun for an outdoor evening, post-picnic, where everything is amplified anyway. And it beats a non-acted concert. At least my non-opera friends could somewhat follow the story. I wouldn't do it for a full opera, and certainly not a full cycle. But great for an excerpt. I just wish the audio folks turned up the speakers to 11 so I could get fully swallowed into that music.

One day I hope to see a proper Ring in an opera house. Til then, this'll do!


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> I would be down to catch some Matthew Bourne! Funny I was just hanging with an ex ballerina and it was fun to pick her brain about Bourne and ballet in general. (It’s funny to note that when I asked her what her fave ballet was she knew the piece and the choreographer but not the composer — certainly a different focus than music fans).
> 
> Just now leaving an interesting green screen-ed live VFX-video staging of Act 3 of Die Walkure at the Hollywood Bowl. All set in a post-destoryed world where everything has been uploaded into a Tron-like sci fi world. The valkyries rode tron bikes. The performers were in costumes, but slightly were metal rather than traditional, and singing and acting in front of a giant green screen. And with video they could do impossible things like make Wotan gigantic or have them flying in those sci-fi bikes through impossible Tron-like skies. Otherwise, the music was straight from the opera. Pretty fun for an outdoor evening, post-picnic, where everything is amplified anyway. And it beats a non-acted concert. At least my non-opera friends could somewhat follow the story. I wouldn't do it for a full opera, and certainly not a full cycle. But great for an excerpt. I just wish the audio folks turned up the speakers to 11 so I could get fully swallowed into that music.
> 
> One day I hope to see a proper Ring in an opera house. Til then, this'll do!


Sounds exciting.

Bizet for me today:









Bizet: Symphony in C
François Leleux, Scottish Chamber Orchestra









Bizet: L'Arlesienne Suite
Marc Minkowski, Les Musiciens du Louvre









Bizet: Jeux d'Enfants
Ernest Ansermet, L'Orchestre De La Suisse Romande


----------



## new but obsessed

I found this record of Lakme highlights with Natalie Dessay that I've just finished listening. The music/vocals are a little monotonous throughout this set -- not a wide range of dramatic range, maybe; all of it is of a piece. Still, I'm impressed with how beautiful all the music is. Delibes and Bizet have this gift for pretty French music! I've not yet seen a French opera, but I'm now more intrigued than ever


----------



## Chilham

I'm enthralled by Sabine and Marianne's Flower Duet. It seems that François Xavier Roth and Les Siecles can do no wrong for me at the moment. Everything they touch strikes a good note with me:


----------



## Mandryka

Francois Xavier Roth’s Debussy - Jeux is what I’m think of - is original and revealing.


----------



## new but obsessed

Chilham said:


> I'm enthralled by Sabine and Marianne's Flower Duet. It seems that François Xavier Roth and Les Siecles can do no wrong for me at the moment. Everything they touch strikes a good note with me:


indeed, that is the best flower duet i have in my library. Warner Music's youtube channel also has a fantastic video (14M views!) of a recording session.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Fesche Geister


----------



## Chilham

The hottest day on record forecast for the UK. I'm 'holed-up' in an AirBnB just outside a picturesque little village in the Weald of Kent having moved out from our apartment last Friday. No AC so all the windows are open, blinds drawn and a fan at the ready for the heat of the afternoon. I've got Camille to help see me through.









Saint-Saëns: Symphony No. 3 "Organ"
Christoph Eschenbach, The Philadelphia Orchestra, Olivier Latry









Saint-Saëns: Carnival of the Animals
Neeme Järvi, Louis Lortie, Helene Mercier, Bergen Filharmoniske Orkester

Saint-Saëns: Cello Concerto No. 1
Neeme Järvi, Bergen Filharmoniske Orkester, Truls Mørk









Saint-Saëns: Piano Concerto No. 2
Sakari Oramo, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, Stephen Hough

Saint-Saëns: Piano Concerto No. 4
Sakari Oramo, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, Stephen Hough









Saint-Saëns: Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso
Renaud Capuçon, Die Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen, Daniel Harding









Saint-Saëns: Clarinet Sonata
Martin Fröst, Roland Pöntinen









Saint-Saëns: Violin Concerto No. 3
Jean Jacques Kantorow, Kees Bakels & Tapiola Sinfonietta









Saint-Saëns: Violin Sonata No. 1
Bertrand Chamayou & Renaud Capuçon









Saint-Saëns: Samson et Dalila (Excerpts)
Myung-Whun Chung, Plácido Domingo, Choeur de l'Opéra Bastille, Waltraud Meier, Alain Fondary, Orchestre De L'Opera Bastille, Christian Papis, Daniel Galvez-Vallejo, François Harismendy


----------



## justekaia

Chilham said:


> The hottest day on record forecast for the UK. I'm 'holed-up' in an AirBnB just outside a picturesque little village in the Weald of Kent having moved out from our apartment last Friday. No AC so all the windows are open, blinds drawn and a fan at the ready for the heat of the afternoon. I've got Camille to help see me through.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saint-Saëns: Symphony No. 3 "Organ"
> Christoph Eschenbach, The Philadelphia Orchestra, Olivier Latry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saint-Saëns: Carnival of the Animals
> Neeme Järvi, Louis Lortie, Helene Mercier, Bergen Filharmoniske Orkester
> 
> Saint-Saëns: Cello Concerto No. 1
> Neeme Järvi, Bergen Filharmoniske Orkester, Truls Mørk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saint-Saëns: Piano Concerto No. 2
> Sakari Oramo, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, Stephen Hough
> 
> Saint-Saëns: Piano Concerto No. 4
> Sakari Oramo, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, Stephen Hough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saint-Saëns: Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso
> Renaud Capuçon, Die Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen, Daniel Harding
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saint-Saëns: Clarinet Sonata
> Martin Fröst, Roland Pöntinen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saint-Saëns: Violin Concerto No. 3
> Jean Jacques Kantorow, Kees Bakels & Tapiola Sinfonietta
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saint-Saëns: Violin Sonata No. 1
> Bertrand Chamayou & Renaud Capuçon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saint-Saëns: Samson et Dalila (Excerpts)
> Myung-Whun Chung, Plácido Domingo, Choeur de l'Opéra Bastille, Waltraud Meier, Alain Fondary, Orchestre De L'Opera Bastille, Christian Papis, Daniel Galvez-Vallejo, François Harismendy


chillham you are even smarter than i thought; you have got some of the best french performers lined up for S-Saens whose music is not work of genius but so pleasant to the ear; the third symphony with latry is the best in my collection, it is quite a symphony; the first cello concerto in the hands of mork is to die for (the other day i was listening to it on the radio and could not immediately identify it as it has some dvorak and spanish accents, but it is just exhilarating); i would have preferred kantorow in the piano concertos or chamayou but no complaints with hough who is as reliable as ever; the second and the fifth are really special; capuçon delivers some all time favourites on the violin; great cast for the opera, which has a few famous arias but is probably not one of S-Saens best efforts


----------



## Chilham

justekaia said:


> chillham you are even smarter than I thought...


😊

As you say, little genius, yet so pleasant. I've enjoyed my day so far.


----------



## Kreisler jr

Chilham said:


> The hottest day on record forecast for the UK. I'm 'holed-up' in an AirBnB just outside a picturesque little village in the Weald of Kent having moved out from our apartment last Friday. No AC so all the windows are open, blinds drawn and a fan at the ready for the heat of the afternoon. I've got *Camille* to help see me through.


Now at first glance I thought Camille was a girlfriend...


----------



## Chilham

Heading back East today.









Borodin: Symphony No. 1 & 2
Loris Tjeknavorian, National Philharmonic Orchestra









Mussorgsky: Songs and Dances of Death
Dmitri Hvorostovsky & Ivari Ilja









Rimsky-Korsakov: Blue Ocean Sea, Song of the Varangian Guest, Song of the Indian Guest, Song of the Venetian Guest, Volkhova's Lullaby from Sadko
Nikolai Golovanov, Orchestra of the Bolshoi Theatre, Georgy Nelepp


----------



## Chilham

Coming at you a day-and-a-half early as it’s Mrs. Chilham and my Ruby wedding anniversary this weekend and we’re off for a long-weekend of spa treatments, fine dining and good red wine to celebrate.

This week, we’re calling @haziz to the “Chilham's Journey” courtesy telephone. It’s a week of composers born 1840-1843 excluding Dvořák (he’ll be with us next week). That means it’s Tchaikovsky week!

Not many composers get four Level 1 works - Beethoven 6, Mozart 5 and JS Bach 4 - and whilst I suspect some will stick their thumbs in their braces and look down their nose, for me it demonstrates the class of the composer. I adore his Violin Concerto, am addicted to Symphonies 1 & 4, and the 1812 was my first experience of classical music. I’ve still to completely connect with “Pathetique”, although Currentzis and MusicAeterna are helping me with that, so this week is another opportunity try to get closer to it.









Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 6
Teodor Currentzis, MusicAeterna

Anyway, here we go, a week of Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Chabrier et al. Enjoy!

*Level 1*
*Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich*: *Symphony No. 6 "Pathetique"*
*Grieg, Edvard*: *Piano Concerto in A minor*
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *The Nutcracker Suite esp. Dance of the Reed Flutes, Russian Dane, Dance of the Mirlitons, Dance of the Sugar-Plum Fairy, Pas de Deux, Overture, Waltz of the Flowers, Chinese Dance*
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *Swan Lake esp. Dances of the Swans*
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *Piano Concerto No. 1 esp. I Allegro non troppo e molto maestos*

*Level 2*
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Romeo and Juliet esp. Fantasy Overture
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *Festival Overture in E-flat major "1812 Overture"*
Grieg, Edvard: *Peer Gynt esp. In the Hall of the Mountain King, Death of Aase, Morning Mood, Antira's Dance*
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Violin Concerto in D
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Sleeping Beauty esp. Waltz

*Level 3*
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Eugene Onegin esp. Act 1: Tatiana's Lette Scene
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Symphony No. 5 in E minor
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *Symphony No. 4 in F minor*
Grieg, Edvard: Holberg Suite esp. "Gavotte"

*Level 4*
*Chabrier, Emmanuel*: España
Grieg, Edvard: Lyric Pieces esp. No. 4 Notturno , Book 5
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Serenade for Strings in C Major
Sarasate, Pablo de: Zigeunerweisen
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Pique Dame "Queen of Spades"
*Widor, Charles-Marie*: Organ Symphony No. 5
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Manfred Symphony
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *Capriccio Italien*
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *String Quartet No. 1*

*Level 5*
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Symphony No. 1 "Winter Daydreams"
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Francesca da Rimini, Fantasia after Dante
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Variations on a Rococo Theme for Cello and Orchestra
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Souvenir de Florence
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Piano Trio in A minor
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Symphony No. 2 "Little Russian"
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Slavonic March
Grieg, Edvard: Violin Sonata No. 3
Grieg, Edvard: Ballade in the Form of Variations on a Norwegian Folk Song
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Symphony No. 3 "Polish"
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: The Seasons esp. vi. June - Barcarole
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *String Quartet No. 2*

*Level 6*
Grieg, Edvard: *String Quartet No. 1*
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Hamlet Fantasy Overture
Chabrier, Emmanuel: Bourrée Fantastique
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Orchestral Suite No. 3
Chabrier, Emmanuel: Dix Pièces Pittoresques
Grieg, Edvard: Violin Sonata No. 2
Grieg, Edvard: Cello Sonata
Widor, Charles-Marie: Symphony No. 6
Grieg, Edvard: Norwegian Dances
Grieg, Edvard: Haugtussa Song Cycle
Sarasate, Pablo de: Spanische Tānze
Stainer, John: The Crucifiction

*Level 7*
Grieg, Edvard: Two Elegiac Melodies Op. 34 i. "The Wounded Heart", ii. "The Last Spring"
Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich: Piano Concerto No. 2
Chabrier, Emmanuel: Suite Pastorale
*Svendsen, Johan*: Symphony No. 2 in B-Flat, Op. 15
Grieg, Edvard: Funeral March in Memory of Rikard Nordraak
Grieg, Edvard: Sigurd Jorsalfar Suite Op. 56
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Iolanta

Honourable mentions:
*Sullivan, Arthur*: Onward Christian Soldiers, Symphony in E, The Long Day Closes, Twilight


For anyone new to the thread trying to work out what's going on, read the *first three posts on page 1*.


----------



## new but obsessed

Wishing Mr. C and Mrs. C a wonderful weekend! What a charming summer!

Somewhat of a coincidence, just as I was wrapping my listening of Coppelia (I really liked Delibes and Bruch this week!), I decided to hop into my library's backlog of stuff to listen to. And first up was Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto 1. Got through the first two movements when this new list came out. Always fun to have a head start!

Also, peeking ahead to Level 3, I LOVE LOVE LOVE Eugene Onegin. The Met HD stream with Hvorotovsky and Flemming was one of my favorite discoveries during my covid MET opera deep-dive in early 2020. I just love that entire thing!


----------



## Chilham

Getting closer.









Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 6 "Pathetique"
Kirill Petrenko, Berlin Philharmonic


----------



## EvaBaron

Chilham said:


> Getting closer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 6 "Pathetique"
> Kirill Petrenko, Berlin Philharmonic


Have you tried the famous (stereo) Mavrinksy?


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Getting closer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 6 "Pathetique"
> Kirill Petrenko, Berlin Philharmonic



I think the first movement it is the most self indulgent and egotistical piece of music ever. It's like he's saying "I'm going to show you just how lousy I feel." Depressed, and loud and proud about it.


----------



## Mandryka

\c.knasm,cbsmcb s


----------



## justekaia

EvaBaron said:


> Have you tried the famous (stereo) Mavrinksy?


i know mravinsky but who the hell is mavrinksy?


----------



## EvaBaron

justekaia said:


> i know mravinsky but who the hell is mavrinksy?


Mravinsky is the same person as Mavrinsky but with a spelling mistake


----------



## justekaia

EvaBaron said:


> Mravinsky is the same person as Mavrinsky but with a spelling mistake


Would you be so kind to clarify which is the correct spelling. I would sincerely appreciate it.


----------



## Kreisler jr

Mavrinksy is wrong. 
Mravinsky is the common spelling in English. In German texts/covers one might also encounter (Jewgenij) Mrawinskij, not sure about French or Italian as there are many different Latin alphabet spellings of words that are spelled with the kyrillic alphabet.


----------



## EvaBaron

justekaia said:


> Would you be so kind to clarify which is the correct spelling. I would sincerely appreciate it.


It’s Mravinsky


----------



## Chilham

EvaBaron said:


> Have you tried the famous (stereo) Mavrinksy?


I've not. Nelsons, Bychkov, Currentzis and Petrenko are all I have.


----------



## Chilham

An excellent listen. One to rival Mullova/Ozawa/Boston SO:









Tchaikovsky: Violin Concerto in D Major
Johan Dalene, Norrköping Symphony Orchestra, Daniel Blendulf


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Coming at you a day-and-a-half early as it’s Mrs. Chilham and my Ruby wedding anniversary this weekend and we’re off for a long-weekend of spa treatments, fine dining and good red wine to celebrate.
> 
> This week, we’re calling @haziz to the “Chilham's Journey” courtesy telephone. It’s a week of composers born 1840-1843 excluding Dvořák (he’ll be with us next week). That means it’s Tchaikovsky week!
> 
> Not many composers get four Level 1 works - Beethoven 6, Mozart 5 and JS Bach 4 - and whilst I suspect some will stick their thumbs in their braces and look down their nose, for me it demonstrates the class of the composer. I adore his Violin Concerto, am addicted to Symphonies 1 & 4, and the 1812 was my first experience of classical music. I’ve still to completely connect with “Pathetique”, although Currentzis and MusicAeterna are helping me with that, so this week is another opportunity try to get closer to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 6
> Teodor Currentzis, MusicAeterna
> 
> Anyway, here we go, a week of Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Chabrier et al. Enjoy!
> 
> *Level 1*
> *Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich*: *Symphony No. 6 "Pathetique"*
> *Grieg, Edvard*: *Piano Concerto in A minor*
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *The Nutcracker Suite esp. Dance of the Reed Flutes, Russian Dane, Dance of the Mirlitons, Dance of the Sugar-Plum Fairy, Pas de Deux, Overture, Waltz of the Flowers, Chinese Dance*
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *Swan Lake esp. Dances of the Swans*
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *Piano Concerto No. 1 esp. I Allegro non troppo e molto maestos*
> 
> *Level 2*
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Romeo and Juliet esp. Fantasy Overture
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *Festival Overture in E-flat major "1812 Overture"*
> Grieg, Edvard: *Peer Gynt esp. In the Hall of the Mountain King, Death of Aase, Morning Mood, Antira's Dance*
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Violin Concerto in D
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Sleeping Beauty esp. Waltz
> 
> *Level 3*
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Eugene Onegin esp. Act 1: Tatiana's Lette Scene
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Symphony No. 5 in E minor
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *Symphony No. 4 in F minor*
> Grieg, Edvard: Holberg Suite esp. "Gavotte"
> 
> *Level 4*
> *Chabrier, Emmanuel*: España
> Grieg, Edvard: Lyric Pieces esp. No. 4 Notturno , Book 5
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Serenade for Strings in C Major
> Sarasate, Pablo de: Zigeunerweisen
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Pique Dame "Queen of Spades"
> *Widor, Charles-Marie*: Organ Symphony No. 5
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Manfred Symphony
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *Capriccio Italien*
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *String Quartet No. 1*
> 
> *Level 5*
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Symphony No. 1 "Winter Daydreams"
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Francesca da Rimini, Fantasia after Dante
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Variations on a Rococo Theme for Cello and Orchestra
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Souvenir de Florence
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Piano Trio in A minor
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Symphony No. 2 "Little Russian"
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Slavonic March
> Grieg, Edvard: Violin Sonata No. 3
> Grieg, Edvard: Ballade in the Form of Variations on a Norwegian Folk Song
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Symphony No. 3 "Polish"
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: The Seasons esp. vi. June - Barcarole
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: *String Quartet No. 2*
> 
> *Level 6*
> Grieg, Edvard: *String Quartet No. 1*
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Hamlet Fantasy Overture
> Chabrier, Emmanuel: Bourrée Fantastique
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Orchestral Suite No. 3
> Chabrier, Emmanuel: Dix Pièces Pittoresques
> Grieg, Edvard: Violin Sonata No. 2
> Grieg, Edvard: Cello Sonata
> Widor, Charles-Marie: Symphony No. 6
> Grieg, Edvard: Norwegian Dances
> Grieg, Edvard: Haugtussa Song Cycle
> Sarasate, Pablo de: Spanische Tānze
> Stainer, John: The Crucifiction
> 
> *Level 7*
> Grieg, Edvard: Two Elegiac Melodies Op. 34 i. "The Wounded Heart", ii. "The Last Spring"
> Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich: Piano Concerto No. 2
> Chabrier, Emmanuel: Suite Pastorale
> *Svendsen, Johan*: Symphony No. 2 in B-Flat, Op. 15
> Grieg, Edvard: Funeral March in Memory of Rikard Nordraak
> Grieg, Edvard: Sigurd Jorsalfar Suite Op. 56
> Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Iolanta
> 
> Honourable mentions:
> *Sullivan, Arthur*: Onward Christian Soldiers, Symphony in E, The Long Day Closes, Twilight
> 
> 
> For anyone new to the thread trying to work out what's going on, read the *first three posts on page 1*.


The Grieg Ballade op 24 is a very fine bit of music. There’s an outstanding early recording by Godowsky. Rubinstein recored it too. 

Basically I think Grieg is a really fine composer, well worth exploring.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> The Grieg Ballade op 24 is a very fine bit of music. There’s an outstanding early recording by Godowsky. Rubinstein recored it too.
> 
> Basically I think Grieg is a really fine composer, well worth exploring.


I have Süssmann standing by.


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## Mandryka

By the way, you are now very close to what is, I think, the most important milestone in the history of music. Recording technology has been invented. There are recordings by Grieg I think, and certainly there is one by Brahms. So for the first time people are producing “classical music” for a mass market of ordinary people, not for performers or for proletarians or church goers or for _kenner und liebhaber _who paid for subscriptions to concerts. The use, the function, of this sort of music is about to change fundamentally - it has become a tool for creating a domestic ambience. And the performer has a new sort of commodity to make his living with - the recording. See whether you can hear it in the compositions.


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## justekaia

mravinsky is one of the greatest conductor ever, particularly for russian music. his take of Tchaikovsky's pathétique is of ferocious intensity and speed. you feel like in a bullet train but it is an enjoyable ride and the power of the music overwhelms you. the stereo sound will be acceptable for most.
I have a soft spot for mariss jansons. His father arvids conducted a lot of tchaikovsky and did it with impeccable rigour. He said to his son not to add honey to the sugar, feeling that there was enough sentimentality in the score already. Mariss' versions with the oslo philharmonic and with the bavarian radio so are top notch.
andris nelsons is one of the best conductors of our time but has not recorded the sixth with a great orchestra.
honeck delivers a compelling performance with his pittsburgh players; you get an exciting and emotionally charged version in superb sound. The end of the symphony is really captivating.
kirill petrenko's account is also worth a listen. You feel that he has worked hard at eliminating unnecessary elaborations and achieves the right emotional impact.
i have left currentzis for the end. my first listen was exhilarating but after a few times you get the impression that the 
conductor has not studied the score enough or performs his own version of the music.


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## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> By the way, you are now very close to what is, I think, the most important milestone in the history of music. Recording technology has been invented. There are recordings by Grieg I think, and certainly there is one by Brahms. So for the first time people are producing “classical music” for a mass market of ordinary people, not for performers or for proletarians or church goers or for _kenner und liebhaber _who paid for subscriptions to concerts. The use, the function, of this sort of music is about to change fundamentally - it has become a tool for creating a domestic ambience. And the performer has a new sort of commodity to make his living with - the recording. See whether you can hear it in the compositions.


I noticed last week that we had the first pieces of our journey that were composed in the 20th Century - Saint-Saëns Clarinet Sonata was the one I noticed, but as that was composed in 1921, I'm sure there were more. And we're still only in July!


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## Chilham

justekaia said:


> mravinsky is one of the greatest conductor ever, particularly for russian music. his take of Tchaikovsky's pathétique is of ferocious intensity and speed. you feel like in a bullet train but it is an enjoyable ride and the power of the music overwhelms you. the stereo sound will be acceptable for most.
> I have a soft spot for mariss jansons. His father arvids conducted a lot of tchaikovsky and did it with impeccable rigour. He said to his son not to add honey to the sugar, feeling that there was enough sentimentality in the score already. Mariss' versions with the oslo philharmonic and with the bavarian radio so are top notch.
> andris nelsons is one of the best conductors of our time but has not recorded the sixth with a great orchestra.
> honeck delivers a compelling performance with his pittsburgh players; you get an exciting and emotionally charged version in superb sound. The end of the symphony is really captivating.
> kirill petrenko's account is also worth a listen. You feel that he has worked hard at eliminating unnecessary elaborations and achieves the right emotional impact.
> i have left currentzis for the end. my first listen was exhilarating but after a few times you get the impression that the
> conductor has not studied the score enough or performs his own version of the music.


Honeck with the Pittsburgh SO seems to have produced some excellent recordings. I only have his Bruckner 9th, but have come perilously close to buying his Beethoven 3rd and 9th. For live performances, they seem to have excellent sound.


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## hammeredklavier

It's interesting that the Lyric Pieces are "cyclic", the last, the 66th, brings back the melody of the 1st, which was written 35 years earlier-








the entire playlist: youtube.com/watch?v=5TbQftYOKms&list=PLD0AADF64997933E6&index=1

One of the more famous pieces, "Wedding Day at Troldhuagen"-





I've found "Butterfly" quite quirky-


----------



## justekaia

Chilham said:


> Honeck with the Pittsburgh SO seems to have produced some excellent recordings. I only have his Bruckner 9th, but have come perilously close to buying his Beethoven 3rd and 9th. For live performances, they seem to have excellent sound.


get everything you can from honeck; he is an exceptional conductor who researches all the works he conducts in depth; his pittsburgh orchestra is fabulous


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## Mandryka

I saw


hammeredklavier said:


> It's interesting that the Lyric Pieces are "cyclic", the last, the 66th, brings back the melody of the 1st, which was written 35 years earlier-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the entire playlist: youtube.com/watch?v=5TbQftYOKms&list=PLD0AADF64997933E6&index=1
> 
> One of the more famous pieces, "Wedding Day at Troldhuagen"-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've found "Butterfly" quite quirky-


Thanks @hammeredklavier

Do you knowif there’s more structure in Lyric Pieces than that?


----------



## new but obsessed

So far loving the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto 1 and the Symphony 6 Pathetique -- that latter one especially, and with the Currentzis/MusicAeterna recording recommendation. I'm now also loving a lovely performance of Grieg's Piano Concerto by Alica Sara Ott & E-P Salonen. I think I'd struggled in the past with some random subpar recordings of Peer Gynt, so I wasn't sure what to expect. But a lovely concerto is always a nice refresher!



Mandryka said:


> By the way, you are now very close to what is, I think, the most important milestone in the history of music. Recording technology has been invented. There are recordings by Grieg I think, and certainly there is one by Brahms. So for the first time people are producing “classical music” for a mass market of ordinary people, not for performers or for proletarians or church goers or for _kenner und liebhaber _who paid for subscriptions to concerts. The use, the function, of this sort of music is about to change fundamentally - it has become a tool for creating a domestic ambience. And the performer has a new sort of commodity to make his living with - the recording. See whether you can hear it in the compositions.


Thank you, Mandryka, for pointing this out. I hadn't expected to already be on the cusp of recorded music! I was thinking we'd get there when we got to Puccini and maybe Dvorak. Recorded music, electricity, industrialization, and the advent of cinema are things I will now try to look for in the music we tackle going forward. Not to mention the world wars and all the rest of the 20th century stuff.

EDIT: re-listened to some of the recommended excerpts from The Nutcracker. I'm now taking a crack at Swan Lake. I've not listened to too much Tchaikovsky, and the 1812 overture was never something I've connected with. Of course his ballets are majorly in our pop zeitgeist. And I fell in love with Eugene Onegin when I first saw it and still listen to it eagerly. And now digging into his Symphony 6 and Piano Concerto 1 and Swan Lake --- I can easily say that Tchaikovsky is up there in my top faves list. His music is so melodic and beautiful and moving!


----------



## pianozach

Capriccio Italien, Op. 45

Just freakin' brilliant.


----------



## Kreisler jr

It's the wrong season, but there is a great, if a bit cute, Nutcracker from the Dresden opera, I highly recommend, maybe the video is still around at Xmas time.


----------



## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> It's the wrong season, but there is a great, if a bit cute, Nutcracker from the Dresden opera, I highly recommend, maybe the video is still around at Xmas time.



This sort of choreography is like silent film really.


----------



## BBSVK

I confess, last time I tried to join you, guys, I couldn't handle Brahms. Probably I should not have tried a requiem on a holiday with kids 🙃 

But this week is fun !!!


----------



## Chilham

I've had much more time than I'd anticipated to listen so far this week, and it's been good quality time. So far, Piotr is knocking it out of the park for me. I'm saving the two operas for later but have got down into the 4th and 5th levels.

Today's listening:









Tchaikovsky: Variations on a Rococo Theme
Herbert von Karajan, Berlin Philharmonic, Mstislav Rostropovich









Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 1 "Winter Daydreams"
Pablo Heras-Casado, Orchestra of St. Luke's









Tchaikovsky: Manfred Symphony
Vasily Petrenko, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra









Tchaikovsky: String Quartet No. 1
Klenke Quartett









Tchaikovsky: Suite No. 3 & Francesca da Rimini
Neeme Järvi, Detroit Symphony Orchestra


----------



## new but obsessed

Chilham said:


> Not many composers get four Level 1 works - Beethoven 6, Mozart 5 and JS Bach 4 - and whilst I suspect some will stick their thumbs in their braces and look down their nose, for me it demonstrates the class of the composer. I adore his Violin Concerto, am addicted to Symphonies 1 & 4, and the 1812 was my first experience of classical music. I’ve still to completely connect with “Pathetique”, although Currentzis and MusicAeterna are helping me with that, so this week is another opportunity try to get closer to it.


I might have to give the 1812 another shot at some point in the future (any recommended recordings?). But man, that Violin Concerto is wild! Really enjoying the Johan Dalene recording you recommended. Truly one of the best things I've heard. And I loved Symphony 6 and the Piano Concerto 1. Revisiting some faves from Eugene Onegin now just cuz I love love love that opera to bits. Can't wait to get to Symphonies 4 & 5.

I can see how Tchaikovsky reaches up to the tier of Beethoven, Mozart and Bach. I wouldn't quite put him in that group (in my extremely limited knowledge). But of the post-Beethoven composers we've covered, he's certainly some of the best I've heard! My not-too-shortlist of Romantic-era faves now includes Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Verdi, Mendelssohn, and Rossini if he counts. (My opera/theater/ballet bias is still very clear!) 

I'm also pleasantly surprised by how much I've enjoyed Grieg's work. The lovely piano concerto convinced me to pulls some excerpts from Peer Gynt and they were well worth it. Not a dud in those highlights! Looking forward to finishing the week with the Holberg Suite as a dessert to the Tchaikovsky symphonies! 



BBSVK said:


> I confess, last time I tried to join you, guys, I couldn't handle Brahms. Probably I should not have tried a requiem on a holiday with kids 🙃
> 
> But this week is fun !!!


Fun week indeed!


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> I might have to give the 1812 another shot at some point in the future (any recommended recordings?). But man, that Violin Concerto is wild! Really enjoying the Johan Dalene recording you recommended. Truly one of the best things I've heard. And I loved Symphony 6 and the Piano Concerto 1. Revisiting some faves from Eugene Onegin now just cuz I love love love that opera to bits. Can't wait to get to Symphonies 4 & 5.
> 
> I can see how Tchaikovsky reaches up to the tier of Beethoven, Mozart and Bach. I wouldn't quite put him in that group (in my extremely limited knowledge). But of the post-Beethoven composers we've covered, he's certainly some of the best I've heard! My not-too-shortlist of Romantic-era faves now includes Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Verdi, Mendelssohn, and Rossini if he counts. (My opera/theater/ballet bias is still very clear!)
> 
> I'm also pleasantly surprised by how much I've enjoyed Grieg's work. The lovely piano concerto convinced me to pulls some excerpts from Peer Gynt and they were well worth it. Not a dud in those highlights! Looking forward to finishing the week with the Holberg Suite as a dessert to the Tchaikovsky symphonies!
> 
> 
> 
> Fun week indeed!


I've tried several in an attempt to rediscover whichever version my mother played over, and over, and over again when I was a kid. No luck with that but I find Pappano very listenable. He has quite a light touch.









Tchaikovsky: Festival Overture in E-flat major - Ouverture Solennelle - "1812 Overture"
Antonio Pappano, Orchestra dell'Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia

My planned listening all done for the week, so I'm revisiting "Pathétique" today. 









Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 6 "Pathétique"
Manfred Honeck, Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra

From an enjoyment perspective, Tchaikovsky has outscored all other composers whom I've listened to more than 25 pieces. That said, I've listened to three times as many works by Beethoven and Mozart, and twice as many by Haydn, Bach, Brahms and Schubert. More likely for those additional works to be rated slightly lower, so it's a false perspective.

Grieg has been a pleasant experience too, especially the string quartet which IMHO should be recommended much more highly.









Grieg: String Quartet in G Minor
Emerson String Quartet

Stand by your bunks, next weeks listing likely coming at you later today. Our son's graduation is tomorrow (ten-years in the army, then back to university and is now graduating with a First-class Honours degree), and we're visiting friends in London over the weekend so will probably post-up the list this evening.


----------



## Chilham

It's fair to say that one of the sources I used has a particular soft spot for Dvořák, resulting in many works being recommended. I think the system is robust enough to manage whatever bias that creates, so here we go, a week of composers born 1844-49 plus Dvořák.

*Level 1*
*Dvořák, Antonín*: *Symphony No. 9 "New World"*

*Level 2*
Dvořák, Antonín: *Cello Concerto in B minor*

*Level 3*
*Fauré, Gabriel*: *Requiem*
Dvořák, Antonín: *String Quartet No. 12 Op. 96 “American”* esp. iv. Vivace
Dvořák, Antonín: Symphony No. 8
Dvořák, Antonín: Symphony No. 7
Dvořák, Antonín: *Slavonic Dances*

*Level 4*
Dvořák, Antonín: *Piano Trio No. 4 "Dumky"*
Dvořák, Antonín: Piano Quintet No. 2
Dvořák, Antonín: Serenade for Strings in E major esp. iii. Scherzo. Vivace
Dvořák, Antonín: Symphony No. 6
Fauré, Gabriel: La Bonne Chanson, Op. 61 esp. "La lune blanche nuit dans les bois"
Fauré, Gabriel: Pelléas et Mélisande Suite
Fauré, Gabriel: Violin Sonata No. 1 Op. 13 esp. i. Allegro molto

*Level 5*
Fauré, Gabriel: Pavane
Dvořák, Antonín: Violin Concerto in A Minor
Dvořák, Antonín: Symphony No. 5
Dvořák, Antonín: Rusalka (Opera) esp. Song To The Moon
Dvořák, Antonín: String Quintet No. 3 Op. 97 "American"
Dvořák, Antonín: Stabat Mater
Dvořák, Antonín: Requiem
Fauré, Gabriel: Piano Quartet No. 2
Fauré, Gabriel: Nocturnes No. 13
Dvořák, Antonín: *String Quartet No. 13*
Dvořák, Antonín: Piano Trio No. 3
Dvořák, Antonín: Symphony No. 3

*Level 6*
Fauré, Gabriel: Piano Quartet No. 1
Fauré, Gabriel: Piano Quintet No. 2
Dvořák, Antonín: Piano Concerto in G Minor
Dvořák, Antonín: Piano Quartet No. 2 esp. II Lento
Dvořák, Antonín: The Wild Dove
Dvořák, Antonín: Serenade for Wind Instruments in D minor Op. 44
Fauré, Gabriel: Dolly Lullaby (Berceuse)
Fauré, Gabriel: Cantique de Jean Racine, Op. 11
*Duparc, Henri*: Chanson Triste
Fauré, Gabriel: Masques et Bergamasques
Dvořák, Antonín: From the Bohemian Forest No. 5 "Silent Woods"
Dvořák, Antonín: Nature, Life and Love: In Nature's Realm, *Carnival*, Othello
Dvořák, Antonín: Symphonic Variations
Dvořák, Antonín: 4 Romantic Pieces Op. 75 esp. i. Allegro Moderato
Fauré, Gabriel: Trois Melodies Op. 7 Après un Rêve
Dvořák, Antonín: *String Quartet No. 14*
Dvořák, Antonín: Romance for Violin and Orchestra Op. 11
Dvořák, Antonín: Vodník (The Water Goblin)
Dvořák, Antonín: The Golden Spinning Wheel
Dvořák, Antonín: Scherzo Capriccioso
Fauré, Gabriel: Violin Sonata No. 2
Dvořák, Antonín: Gypsy Songs Op. 55 esp. Songs My Mother Taught Me
Fauré, Gabriel: L'Horizon Chimérique
Dvořák, Antonín: Symphony No. 4
*Parry, Hubert*: Jerusalem

*Level 7*
Fauré, Gabriel: Elegie Op. 24
Fauré, Gabriel: La Chanson d'Eve
Fauré, Gabriel: Piano Trio
Fauré, Gabriel: *String Quartet in E Minor*
Fauré, Gabriel: Barcarolles Op. 41
Dvořák, Antonín: Polednice (The Noon Witch)
Dvořák, Antonín: Czech Suite
Fauré, Gabriel: Balade in F-sharp Major Op. 19
Dvořák, Antonín: My Home
Fauré, Gabriel: Cello Sonata No. 2
Fauré, Gabriel: Cello Sonata No. 1
*Holmès, Augusta*: Irlande
Dvořák, Antonín: Theme and Variations Op. 36
Parry, Hubert: Blest Pair of Sirens

Honourable mentions:
Gonzaga, Francisca Edwiges Neves "Chiquinha": Ô Abre Alas & O Gaúcho (Corta-Jaca)
Tosti, Francesco Paolo: Pour un Baiser!


----------



## pianozach

Chilham said:


> I've tried several in an attempt to rediscover whichever version my mother played over, and over, and over again when I was a kid. No luck with that but I find Pappano very listenable. He has quite a light touch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky: Festival Overture in E-flat major - Ouverture Solennelle - "1812 Overture"
> Antonio Pappano, Orchestra dell'Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia


Back when I was a kid, my mother had one of the two Antal Dorati versions of 1812. It had a drawing of a cannon, in yellow, on the cover.

The two versions were similar, and recorded not too many years apart. The main difference is that the original was in mono, (1956, I think), and the later version (1958?) was a stereo recording. Later on he recorded it yet again.

They both had 1812 on the A-side, with a "commentary" by Deems Taylor, which described the whole "Living Presence" recording technique, and how they found the best way to record the church bells and cannons. Capriccio Italien was the B-Side. I think the 1958 recording also inexplicably added Wellington's Victory.


----------



## Chilham

pianozach said:


> Back when I was a kid, my mother had one of the two Antal Dorati versions of 1812. It had a drawing of a cannon, in yellow, on the cover.
> 
> The two versions were similar, and recorded not too many years apart. The main difference is that the original was in mono, (1956, I think), and the later version (1958?) was a stereo recording. Later on he recorded it yet again.
> 
> They both had 1812 on the A-side, with a "commentary" by Deems Taylor, which described the whole "Living Presence" recording technique, and how they found the best way to record the church bells and cannons. Capriccio Italien was the B-Side. I think the 1958 recording also inexplicably added Wellington's Victory.


I've listened to Dorati and have ruled him out. If I was a gambling man, I'd lay money it was Kenneth Alwyn with the LSO, a 1958 stereo recording. I can't find any more than a snippet without buying the whole album. I'll find it one day.


----------



## new but obsessed

I've enjoyed a Kubelik/Berlin Phil Symphony No. 9 in the past. But whenever a work I like/love comes up in this _journey, _I like to take the opportunity to find a new recording to hear. And my Apple Music search greeted me with a new release (tomorrow!) of Symphonies 7-9 by Dudamel / LA Phil! My former local band! Excited to pick that up.










And excited to hear a Rostropovich recording of the Cello Concerto (a new-to-me piece of music). The only other Dvorak I've listened to is the Violin Concerto in A Minor (recording by Mutter/Honeck/Berlin Phil). That was a rousing and amazing piece of music -- I expected it to be a level 1, purely based on my love for it! Surprised to see it all the way down in level 5!


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> I've enjoyed a Kubelik/Berlin Phil Symphony No. 9 in the past. But whenever a work I like/love comes up in this _journey, _I like to take the opportunity to find a new recording to hear. And my Apple Music search greeted me with a new release (tomorrow!) of Symphonies 7-9 by Dudamel / LA Phil! My former local band! Excited to pick that up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And excited to hear a Rostropovich recording of the Cello Concerto (a new-to-me piece of music). The only other Dvorak I've listened to is the Violin Concerto in A Minor (recording by Mutter/Honeck/Berlin Phil). That was a rousing and amazing piece of music -- I expected it to be a level 1, purely based on my love for it! Surprised to see it all the way down in level 5!


Like you, I'm trying a, "New-to-me", recording of Dvořák's New World symphony. I'll then try to squeeze in some other listening around weekend commitments.









Dvořák: Symphony No. 9 "New World"
Andris Nelsons, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra









Dvořák: Cello Concerto
Herbert von Karajan, Berliner Philharmoniker, Mstislav Rostropovich









Fauré: Requiem
Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent, La Chapelle Royale









Dvořák: String Quartet No. 12 "American"
Pavel Haas Quartet

I've only listened once to Dvořák's Violin Concerto and don't recall it, so looking forward to reacquainting myself with that.









Dvořák: Violin Concerto
John Storgårds, Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra, Christian Tetzlaff


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## Mandryka

Listen to the opening of Karajan’s Berlin Dvorak 9 - he turns it into a tone poem of Nazies in jackboots invading Prague.

There’s a big debate about tempo in the cello concerto. A very early recording by Feuermann plays it much faster than has become the common practice. Some people say the Feuermann approach is better poetry, and more authentic.

The Fauré requiem is sweet and must be heard. The same for his second violin sonata and I would say, the later nocturnes - see if you can find Eric Heidsieck as he seems to have a knack for this elusive music.

Duparc is outstanding, IMO the greatest of the French songwriters in the old style. There’s not much of his music left because he burnt it in a moment of frustration and disappointment - all of what’s left is well worth exploring.


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## justekaia

Chilham said:


> I've listened to Dorati and have ruled him out. If I was a gambling man, I'd lay money it was Kenneth Alwyn with the LSO, a 1958 stereo recording. I can't find any more than a snippet without buying the whole album. I'll find it one day.


i think most of us have good memories re tchaikovsky; I am addicted to the string serenade i heard at school as a six-year old; this composer might not be a genius like beethoven but then you cannot stop listening to the violin cto (one of the best), several symphonies (1, 4, 5, 6), beautiful chamber music, the first piano cto, swan lake, onegin etc...; dvorak is a different case for me as i cannot listen to some of his works anymore (9th symphony, cello concerto) and the reason is we have been over-exposed to these works, so i'll keep the 7 and 8th symphonies, the string quartets, rusalka and his sacred music; regarding the versions of these works i do not listen to old versions any more as we have fabulous conductors and performers who understand the music much better than their elders because of the benefit of hindsight; i like karajan in this repertoire, but then we have conductors like belohlavek (dvorak), nelsons, pappano, honeck who have great insights and great orchestras.


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## EvaBaron

justekaia said:


> i think most of us have good memories re tchaikovsky; I am addicted to the string serenade i heard at school as a six-year old; this composer might not be a genius like beethoven but then you cannot stop listening to the violin cto (one of the best), several symphonies (1, 4, 5, 6), beautiful chamber music, the first piano cto, swan lake, onegin etc...; dvorak is a different case for me as i cannot listen to some of his works anymore (9th symphony, cello concerto) and the reason is we have been over-exposed to these works, so i'll keep the 7 and 8th symphonies, the string quartets, rusalka and his sacred music; regarding the versions of these works i do not listen to old versions any more as we have fabulous conductors and performers who understand the music much better than their elders because of the benefit of hindsight; i like karajan in this repertoire, but then we have conductors like belohlavek (dvorak), nelsons, pappano, honeck who have great insights and great orchestras.


I don’t agree that newer conductors understand the music better than newer conductors. Especially when conductors new the composer of which they conduct the music. A good example is Bruno Walter who knew Gustav Mahler and played I believe the violin(?) for Johannes Brahms. They grew up with the tradition, who better to understand the music than them? I agree with you if we would be talking about older classical music, like baroque and classical periods. However from the later half of the 19th century and onwards I like older conductors better


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## pianozach

Chilham said:


> It's fair to say that one of the sources I used has a particular soft spot for Dvořák, resulting in many works being recommended. I think the system is robust enough to manage whatever bias that creates, so here we go, a week of composers born 1844-49 plus Dvořák.
> 
> *Level 1*
> *Dvořák, Antonín*: *Symphony No. 9 "New World"*
> 
> *Level 2*
> Dvořák, Antonín: *Cello Concerto in B minor*
> 
> *Level 3*
> *Fauré, Gabriel*: *Requiem*
> Dvořák, Antonín: *String Quartet No. 12 Op. 96 “American”* esp. iv. Vivace
> Dvořák, Antonín: Symphony No. 8
> Dvořák, Antonín: Symphony No. 7
> Dvořák, Antonín: *Slavonic Dances*
> 
> *Level 4*
> Dvořák, Antonín: *Piano Trio No. 4 "Dumky"*
> Dvořák, Antonín: Piano Quintet No. 2
> Dvořák, Antonín: Serenade for Strings in E major esp. iii. Scherzo. Vivace
> Dvořák, Antonín: Symphony No. 6


Naturally, one would expect *Dvořák's New World Symphony (No. 9) *to be at the top of the *Dvořák* heap.

But I'd have thought that the *Slavonic Dances *would be rated higher than "Level 3", and *Rusalka* would be rated higher than "Level 5". Along with the *Cello Concerto* and the *American Quartet,* these are absolutely _essential_ *Dvořák* listening.


----------



## Miranna




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## Chilham

Back to the scheduled content, this is a hidden gem in the lower levels:









Fauré: Piano Quintet No. 2
Eric Le Sage & Quatuor Ébène


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## Chilham

A delightful week with Dvořák and Fauré. I loved Dvořák's symphonies 8 and 9, both the cello and violin concertos, SQ12 "American, and Rusalka. For me, in terms of listening pleasure, he's has slotted-in to a group of composers (Haydn, Handel and Brahms), just behind Tchaikovsky, Beethoven and Mozart. Fauré has settled in with Berlioz and Saint-Saëns, which would suggest that my appreciation of French composers seems to be quite consistent.

As a consequence of my personal schedule and commitments, I've been posting-up the listing a day early each week for the past couple of weeks. I'm going to continue with that as I've completed my planned listening for this week, and in two weeks time we have a mega-week! Not in terms of the overall volume of works, but in terms of the quality, and consequent high-volume of highly recommended works. Stay with your personal schedule as you wish, but the option is here if you want to clear a little more space for that week.

Up next then, composers born 1850-1859, with Elgar and Janáček leading the way. I've struggled with Elgar up to now. We'll see if I can get on board with his schtick this week. From memory, my only exposure to Janáček has been Sinfonietta, SQ No. 2, and Jenůfa at Glyndebourne a few years back, all of which I've found to be outstanding.

*Level 1*
*Elgar, Edward*: *Enigma Variations esp. No. 9 "Nimrod"*

*Level 2*
Elgar, Edward: *Cello Concerto in E minor*

*Level 3*
Elgar, Edward: Pomp and Circumstance Marches Nos. 1-5 esp. March No. 1 "Revolutionary Etude"
*Janáček, Leoš*: Sinfonietta
Elgar, Edward: Symphony No. 1
Elgar, Edward: Violin Concerto
Elgar, Edward: Symphony No. 2 esp. II. Larghetto-Nobilmente esemplice-Lento
Elgar, Edward: The Dream of Gerontius

*Level 4*
Janáček, Leoš: Glagolitic Mass
Janáček, Leoš: The Cunning Little Vixen
Ysaÿe, Eugène: Sonatas (6) for Solo Violin in A minor esp. No. 2 i. "Obsession" Prelude, No. 3 "Ballade"
Janáček, Leoš: Jenůfa
Sousa, John Philip: Stars and Stripes Forever

*Level 5*
Janáček, Leoš: *String Quartet No. 2 "Intimate Letters"*
Sousa, John Philip: Washington Post
Janáček, Leoš: String Quartet No. 1 "Kreutzer"
Janáček, Leoš: Taras Bulba Rhapsody for Orchestra
Elgar, Edward: Falstaff
Elgar, Edward: Serenade for Strings
Elgar, Edward: Sea Pictures
Elgar, Edward: In the South
Sousa, John Philip: The Liberty Bell
Elgar, Edward: Salut d’Amour
Elgar, Edward: Chanson De Matin

*Level 6*
Elgar, Edward: Piano Quintet
*Chausson, Ernest*: Symphony in B-flat Major
Chausson, Ernest: Poème Op. 25
Elgar, Edward: Introduction and Allegro
*Tárrega y Eixea, Francisco de Asís*: Recuerdos De La Alhambra
*Stanford, Charles Villiers*: The Blue Bird: 8 Part songs Op. 119 esp. No. 3. The Bluebird
Elgar, Edward: Apostles
Elgar, Edward: The Kingdom
Janáček, Leoš: On an Overgrown Path
Chausson, Ernest: The Concert for Violin, Piano and String Quartet Op.21
*Taneyev, Sergei*: Piano Quintet Op. 30
Elgar, Edward: Violin Sonata in E Minor
Elgar, Edward: Cockaigne "In London Town"
Janáček, Leoš: In the Mists, JW 8/22 esp. i. Andante
Janáček, Leoš: From the House of the Dead
Janáček, Leoš: Kát'a Kabanová
*Smyth, Ethel*: Concerto for Violin and Horn
*Puccini, Giacomo*: I Crisantemi
Chaminade, Cécile: Piano Trio No. 1

*Level 7*
Janáček, Leoš: Piano Sonata No. 1. X. 1905 "From the Street"
*Ippolitov-Ivanov, Mikail*: Caucasian Sketches
Elgar, Edward: Sospiri Op. 70
Janáček, Leoš: The Diary of One Who Disappeared
Janáček, Leoš: Idyll esp. 5. Adagio
Elgar, Edward: *String Quartet*
Chaminade, Cécile: Flute Concertino in D
Chausson, Ernest: Le Roi Arthus
*Fibich, Zdeñek*: Moods, Impressions and Reminiscences
*Martucci, Giiuseppe*: Symphony No. 2
Chausson, Ernest: String Quartet in C minor
Smyth, Ethel: Mass in D
*Chadwick, George*: String Quartet No. 4
Chaminade, Cécile: Piano Trio No. 2
Elgar, Edward: Chanson de Nuit
Chadwick, George: Symphonic Sketches

Honourable mentions:
*D'Indy, Vincent*: Symphony on a French Mountain Air
Luigini, Alexandre: Ballet Egyptian
*Sinding, Christian*: Rustles of Spring
Bonis, Mélanie: Piano Quartets


----------



## pianozach

LOL

Sousa

Marches

Man, wasn't that a sudden "Fad"? Yeah, I know, composers had been putting marches into works for decades, but Sousa did the "March" proud.


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## Mandryka

Elgar Symphony 2 is very good I think, Mahlerian in parts. Try to hear the composer's recording.


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## RICK RIEKERT

“…never have I had such a success! I can’t get over it. Everyone seems to love the _Concert_.” I certainly do, ever since I heard the magnificent Thibaud/Cortot recording many moons ago. Chausson’s unique and intensely expressive _Concert_ _for Violin, Piano and String Quartet _is for me one of the pinnacles of Romantic chamber music.


----------



## new but obsessed

Capped off my week of absolutely loving everything I've heard from Dvorak with an unexpected treat: my first chamber music concert! A lovely small show in our local botanical garden. And the main piece: Dvorak's Dumsky*! And right on schedule after finishing all the level 3 works.

I've got to say: I've yet to find a single fragment of Dvorak's music that I don't find immediately appealing. Just continuing to inch up my faves list.

Looking forward to hearing some Elgar. And, _checks calendar_, I'm amazed we'll be spending so much of this year on 20th-21th century music! Excited to get to it!

*also on the schedule was the 1st movement of Shostakovich's Trio #1, which felt like it would have been the teen punk rock of 1923


----------



## pianozach

new but obsessed said:


> Capped off my week of absolutely loving everything I've heard from Dvorak with an unexpected treat: my first chamber music concert! A lovely small show in our local botanical garden. And the main piece: Dvorak's Dumsky*! And right on schedule after finishing all the level 3 works.
> 
> I've got to say: I've yet to find a single fragment of Dvorak's music that I don't find immediately appealing. Just continuing to inch up my faves list.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing some Elgar. And, _checks calendar_, I'm amazed we'll be spending so much of this year on 20th-21th century music! Excited to get to it!
> 
> *also on the schedule was the 1st movement of Shostakovich's Trio #1, which felt like it would have been the teen punk rock of 1923


Likewise. I haven't heard any _*Dvořák*_ I didn't like.


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> “…never have I had such a success! I can’t get over it. Everyone seems to love the _Concert_.” I certainly do, ever since I heard the magnificent Thibaud/Cortot recording many moons ago. Chausson’s unique and intensely expressive _Concert_ _for Violin, Piano and String Quartet _is for me one of the pinnacles of Romantic chamber music.


I just don’t have the genes for that sort of romanticism. The god gene and the romantic music gene - I lack them both.


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## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> I just don’t have the genes for that sort of romanticism. The god gene and the romantic music gene - I lack them both.


Seems like I'm only missing one of those.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> I just don’t have the genes for that sort of romanticism. The god gene and the romantic music gene - I lack them both.


God knows we all have our limits. The danger, as Schopenhauer reminds us, is to take the limits of our own field of vision for the limits of the world. A well-known neuro-philosopher once told me that she was embarrassed by poetry. She has always been a committed atheist but now describes herself as a pantheist, the religion of the Romantic poets. One never knows how genes may mutate in the course of a lifetime.


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## justekaia

EvaBaron said:


> I don’t agree that newer conductors understand the music better than newer conductors. Especially when conductors new the composer of which they conduct the music. A good example is Bruno Walter who knew Gustav Mahler and played I believe the violin(?) for Johannes Brahms. They grew up with the tradition, who better to understand the music than them? I agree with you if we would be talking about older classical music, like baroque and classical periods. However from the later half of the 19th century and onwards I like older conductors better


I'll be kind to you and just tell you that you have a problem with the word "new". I believe historical records have immense value and should be cherished, even if I have difficulties with the sound quality. But Mahler's vision of the 9th symphony for example with extreme speed is the vision of a great artist, but possibly not the ideal one for his masterpiece. I also believe in the diversity of possible options. This is also why i said that recent conductors benefit from hindsight; they certainly all will have listened to Bruno Walter's take which was made in a rush and which Mahler never heard. But many other great conductors like Horenstein, Karajan, Chailly, Vanskä and the contemporary ones deliver an aural and intellectual product that should IMHO logically be superior to the early versions.
That being said there will always be miraculous versions, even old ones, where all the conditions were right and the sound is still acceptable today. This is my experience and I hope yours will be a happy one as well.


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## Mandryka

Z


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## justekaia

Mandryka said:


> Z


XYZ


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## EvaBaron

justekaia said:


> I'll be kind to you and just tell you that you have a problem with the word "new". I believe historical records have immense value and should be cherished, even if I have difficulties with the sound quality. But Mahler's vision of the 9th symphony for example with extreme speed is the vision of a great artist, but possibly not the ideal one for his masterpiece. I also believe in the diversity of possible options. This is also why i said that recent conductors benefit from hindsight; they certainly all will have listened to Bruno Walter's take which was made in a rush and which Mahler never heard. But many other great conductors like Horenstein, Karajan, Chailly, Vanskä and the contemporary ones deliver an aural and intellectual product that should IMHO logically be superior to the early versions.
> That being said there will always be miraculous versions, even old ones, where all the conditions were right and the sound is still acceptable today. This is my experience and I hope yours will be a happy one as well.


I don’t think I have a problem with the word “new”. I do think we are talking about different kind of “new’s” here. I was thinking more 21st century conductors, but if you include Karajan that means that for you “new” means basically from 1960 to now. To clarify I think the golden age of conductors was in the 60’s so we are kinda on the same page. And Mahler might have never heard Bruno Walter’s 1937 performance of his 9th but he certainly heard Walter conduct the premiere in 1913 (dates could be wrong) and he probably gave Walter some instructions on how he wanted it to sound like


----------



## justekaia

EvaBaron said:


> I don’t think I have a problem with the word “new”. I do think we are talking about different kind of “new’s” here. I was thinking more 21st century conductors, but if you include Karajan that means that for you “new” means basically from 1960 to now. To clarify I think the golden age of conductors was in the 60’s so we are kinda on the same page. And Mahler might have never heard Bruno Walter’s 1937 performance of his 9th but he certainly heard Walter conduct the premiere in 1913 (dates could be wrong) and he probably gave Walter some instructions on how he wanted it to sound like


i confirm mahler never heard walter conduct the ninth


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## justekaia

EvaBaron said:


> I don’t think I have a problem with the word “new”. I do think we are talking about different kind of “new’s” here. I was thinking more 21st century conductors, but if you include Karajan that means that for you “new” means basically from 1960 to now. To clarify I think the golden age of conductors was in the 60’s so we are kinda on the same page. And Mahler might have never heard Bruno Walter’s 1937 performance of his 9th but he certainly heard Walter conduct the premiere in 1913 (dates could be wrong) and he probably gave Walter some instructions on how he wanted it to sound like


i confirm mahler never heard the 9 th symphony conducted by anyone; he gave plenty of instructions to walter including the very high speed, that i find questionable and that has been slowed down too much by certain conductors


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## justekaia

EvaBaron said:


> I don’t think I have a problem with the word “new”. I do think we are talking about different kind of “new’s” here. I was thinking more 21st century conductors, but if you include Karajan that means that for you “new” means basically from 1960 to now. To clarify I think the golden age of conductors was in the 60’s so we are kinda on the same page. And Mahler might have never heard Bruno Walter’s 1937 performance of his 9th but he certainly heard Walter conduct the premiere in 1913 (dates could be wrong) and he probably gave Walter some instructions on how he wanted it to sound like


plse carefully read the text you have written.


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## hammeredklavier

pianozach said:


> I haven't heard any _*Dvořák*_ I didn't like.


Try




B 18


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## Chilham

A lot of quality listening time so far this week means I'm already down into Level 6. I've spent this morning getting to know a little of Chausson. A very pleasant experience, especially Symphonie Op. 20. I'm looking forward too hearing more from him.









Chausson: Chausson Poème for Violin and Orchestra
Mikko Franck, Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France, Hilary Hahn









Chausson: Symphonie Op. 20
Alexandre Bloch, Orchestre National de Lille

My appreciation of Elgar has improved, and I'll use my time this afternoon to revisit a few different versions of his Cello Concerto - I've only listened closely to the Isserlis and Weilerstein versions before today.









Elgar: Cello Concerto
Christoph Eschenbach, Philharmonia Orchestra, David Aaron Carpenter









Elgar: Cello Concerto
Sir John Barbirolli, London Symphony Orchestra, Jacqueline du Pré









Elgar: Cello Concerto
Paavo Järvi, Philharmonia Orchestra, Steven Isserlis









Elgar: Cello Concerto
Daniel Barenboim, Staatskapelle Berlin, Alisa Weilerstein


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## Chilham

Not the best way to end my week of Elgar, although The Kingdom had some pretty moments.









Elgar: The Apostles
Hallé, Sir Mark Elder, Rebecca Evans, Alice Coote, Paul Groves, Jacques Imbrailo, David Kempster, Brindley Sherratt, Sean Boyes, Thomas Kelly, Timothy Langston, Thomas Morss, Adam Player, Stefan Berkieta, Matthew Kellett, Graham McCusker, Daniel Shelvey









Elgar: The Kingdom
Hallé, Sir Mark Elder, Claire Rutter, Susan Bickley, John Hudson, Iain Paterson & Hallé Choir


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## Chilham

For a few weeks, due to my personal commitments, I was posting the listing a day early meaning we had a couple of six-day weeks. I kept the hammer down last week to clear some additional time for "Week 33". There are not more works in total, but simply many more qualifying works to be posted here, many more works recommended in the higher levels, and longer works on average. So that we have the time to do the composers and their recommended works justice, I'm therefore posting next weeks listing today.

Composers born 1860-1863. To quote Trish (Maureen Lipman) in Educating Rita, "Wouldn't you just die without Mahler?!" 🤣

*Level 1*
*Debussy, Claude*: La Mer
*Mahler, Gustav*: Symphony No. 5 esp. iv. Adagietto

*Level 2*
Mahler, Gustav: *Symphony No. 2 "Resurrection"*
Debussy, Claude: *Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un Faune*
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 9
Debussy, Claude: *Préludes Book 1*
Mahler, Gustav: Das Lied von der Erde
Debussy, Claude: Pelléas et Mélisande

*Level 3*
Debussy, Claude: Preludes Book 2
Debussy, Claude: *String Quartet in G Major *and *alternative link*
Debussy, Claude: Suite Bergamasque esp. Clair de Lune
Mahler, Gustav: *Symphony No. 1 "Titan"*
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 3
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 8 "Symphony of A Thousand"
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 6 "Tragic"
Debussy, Claude: Nocturnes for Orchestra
Mahler, Gustav: *Symphony No. 4*
Debussy, Claude: Images for Orchestra
*Albéniz, Isaac*: Iberia

*Level 4*
Debussy, Claude: Children's Corner esp. i. Doctor Gradusad Parnassum
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 7
Debussy, Claude: Sonata for Violin and Piano in G minor
Mahler, Gustav: Kindertotenlieder
Debussy, Claude: Jeux
*Wolf, Hugo*: Mörike Lieder esp. An den Schlaf
Debussy, Claude: Sonata for Cello and Piano in D minor
Mahler, Gustav: Lieder Eines Fahrenden Gesellen

*Level 5*
Mahler, Gustav: Rückert Lieder
Debussy, Claude: Images Books 1 and 2
Debussy, Claude: Estampes for Piano
Mahler, Gustav: Des Knaben Wunderhorn
Wolf, Hugo: Spanish Songbook
Wolf, Hugo: Italian Songbook
*MacDowell, Edward*: Piano Concerto No. 2
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 10
Debussy, Claude: Études
Albéniz, Isaac: Suite Española No. 1, Op. 47
Wolf, Hugo: Goethe Lieder esp. Ganymed
MacDowell, Edward: Woodland Sketches
Debussy, Claude: 2 Arabesques
Mahler, Gustav: Piano Quartet in A Minor
Debussy, Claude: Syrinx

*Level 6*
Debussy, Claude: L'Isle Joyeuse
MacDowell, Edward: Suite No. 2 "Indian"
Wolf, Hugo: Der Corregidor
Debussy, Claude: Beau Soir
Debussy, Claude: Première Rhapsodie for Clarinet and Orchestra
Debussy, Claude: Rêverie
Debussy, Claude: Pour le Piano
Debussy, Claude: Trois Chansons de Bilitis esp. iii. Le Tombeau des Naides
Debussy, Claude: La Plus Que Lente
Charpentier, Gustave: Louise
Mahler, Alma: 5 Lieder esp. No. 3. Laue Sommernacht, No. 5. Ich Wandle unter Blumen
Wolf, Hugo: Eichendorf Lieder esp. Verschwiegene Liebe
Debussy, Claude: Ibéria

*Level 7*
*Arensky, Anton*: Piano Trio No. 1
Debussy, Claude: Sonata for Flute, Viola and Harp
Debussy, Claude: Fêtes Galantes esp. Set No. 2
Debussy, Claude: En Blanc et Noir
Debussy, Claude: Petit Suite
Mahler, Gustav: Das Klagende Lied
Arensky, Anton: Variations on a Theme of Tchaikovsky
Wolf, Hugo: Italian Serenade
Debussy, Claude: Le Martyre de Saint Sébastian
Debussy, Claude: Masques
Debussy, Claude: Six Épigraphes Antiques
Debussy, Claude: La Demoiselle Élue

Honourable mentions:
Aulin, Valborg: Valse Élegiaque
Woodforde-Finden, Amy: Four Kashmiri Love Songs
Loeffler, Charle Martin: A Pagan Poem
Lehmann, Liza: Evensong
Pierné, Gabriel: Canzonetta Op. 19


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## Mandryka

Debussy's Jeux is a very influential piece of music, because of its form. Jeux was a major creative inspiration for both Boulez and Stockhausen.


----------



## justekaia

Mahler, Debussy, Albeniz, Wolf and Pierné, a fantastic combination of outstanding composers around the turn of the 20th century: they will be followed by other giants like Stravinsky and Ravel; but let me just single out a few favourite pieces by the composers mentioned:
-Mahler: Symphonies 3, 5, 9, 10, Kindertotenlieder, Das Lied von der Erde. That being said Symphonies 2 and 4 are great as well in the right hands.
-Debussy: La Mer, L'après-midi d'un Faune, Préludes, Nocturnes, Arabesques, Images, Jeux; People often think that Debussy just wrote nice music but forget how innovative it was for his era and how much influence it had on future composers. By the way his string quartet is a perfect example of that as Ravel modelled his on the older master's work.
-Albeniz: Iberia, Suite Espagnola no 1, Note: I would have liked to see La Vega and Azulejos which are of incomparable beauty. They belong to my all-time favourite piano compositions.
-Wolf: Iberian and Italian Songbooks
-Pierné: the Canzonetta is fine and there are many pieces like this in his repertoire, but i would have chosen the Ramuntcho Suites and his Piano Concerto which are key pieces. Pierné is an important master in the history of French music. There are great composers like Gabriel Dupont, Cras, Ropartz who will follow in his footsteps.


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## Chilham

justekaia said:


> Mahler, Debussy, Albeniz, Wolf and Pierné, a fantastic combination of outstanding composers around the turn of the 20th century: they will be followed by other giants like Stravinsky and Ravel; but let me just single out a few favourite pieces by the composers mentioned:
> -Mahler: Symphonies 3, 5, 9, 10, Kindertotenlieder, Das Lied von der Erde. That being said Symphonies 2 and 4 are great as well in the right hands.
> -Debussy: La Mer, L'après-midi d'un Faune, Préludes, Nocturnes, Arabesques, Images, Jeux; People often think that Debussy just wrote nice music but forget how innovative it was for his era and how much influence it had on future composers. By the way his string quartet is a perfect example of that as Ravel modelled his on the older master's work.
> -Albeniz: Iberia, Suite Espagnola no 1, Note: I would have liked to see La Vega and Azulejos which are of incomparable beauty. They belong to my all-time favourite piano compositions.
> -Wolf: Iberian and Italian Songbooks
> -Pierné: the Canzonetta is fine and there are many pieces like this in his repertoire, but i would have chosen the Ramuntcho Suites and his Piano Concerto which are key pieces. Pierné is an important master in the history of French music. There are great composers like Gabriel Dupont, Cras, Ropartz who will follow in his footsteps.


Thank you. Good to know.

My apologies for the late edits (I added Aulin and moved one or two compositions up). I wasn't as thorough as I should have been this morning. 😊

Should all be good now.

Ps. For anyone thinking, "Hang-on a minute, where's Delius?", I've lightened the load on this week by moving him to join Vaughan Williams, Holst, Finzi and others in a few weeks time. A bit of "English Cow-Pat" week.


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## pianozach

Ha. 

I daresay that *Delius* is a difficult composer. So much of his most popular works are bland, pastoral, and calm. And bland. 

So perfectly *British*.


----------



## justekaia

pianozach said:


> Ha.
> 
> I daresay that *Delius* is a difficult composer. So much of his most popular works are bland, pastoral, and calm. And bland.
> 
> So perfectly *British*.


Delius is the most boring composer in history. Luckily for the British he is of German parentage.


----------



## Chilham

I'm using Chailly as my 'Baseline" for Mahler. I thoroughly enjoyed all I listened to both yesterday and this morning, especially Symphony No. 6, and although all are ridiculously good, I think I prefer Jurowski/LPO's 2nd, Shipway/RPO's 5th and Bernstein/NYPO's 9th.









Mahler: Symphony No. 2, No. 5, No. 6 & No. 9
Riccardo Chailly, Concertgebouworkest, Radio-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin

I continue to struggle with Das Lied von Der Erde. Just can't connect with it.









Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
Vladimir Jurowski, Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Berlin, Sarah Connolly & Robert Dean Smith


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## Chilham

Time alone in the office this morning, not much to do, and office neighbour's on vacation. Muahahahaha!









Mahler: Symphony No. 3
Bernard Haitink, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Time alone in the office this morning, not much to do, and office neighbour's on vacation. Muahahahaha!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mahler: Symphony No. 3
> Bernard Haitink, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra


Too bloody long.


----------



## justekaia

Mandryka said:


> Too bloody long.


for once i disagree with you guys, the third is my favourite mahler symphony together with the ninth; just the first movement is worth the entry ticket, as it is one of the greatest movements in all music; the final movement is nearly as good as the ninth's last movement; of course if you listen to the sugar and honey from bernstein it will clock at 1:45; so do yourself a huge favour and get the honeck version with the pittsburgh so; it clocks at 1:33; that alone will ease your woes but when you hear the superlative exton sound you will change your mind


----------



## Mandryka

justekaia said:


> for once i disagree with you guys, the third is my favourite mahler symphony together with the ninth; just the first movement is worth the entry ticket, as it is one of the greatest movements in all music; the final movement is nearly as good as the ninth's last movement; of course if you listen to the sugar and honey from bernstein it will clock at 1:45; so do yourself a huge favour and get the honeck version with the pittsburgh so; it clocks at 1:33; that alone will ease your woes but when you hear the superlative exton sound you will change your mind


It’s probably my favourite Mahler symphony too, along maybe with 7 and 10 and if I’m feeling self indulgently morose, 9. It’s just that, you know, there needs to be a comfort break in the concert.


----------



## justekaia

Mandryka said:


> It’s probably my favourite Mahler symphony too, along maybe with 7 and 10 and if I’m feeling self indulgently morose, 9. It’s just that, you know, there needs to be a comfort break in the concert.


well, i am not like you; i can easily listen to rheingold before lunch; tristan after lunch; mahler's third before dinner; and mahler's ninth after dinner; that's my idea of a perfect day; between these i would read some stories by borges; as a matter of fact that is exactly what i did a week ago


----------



## janwillemvanaalst

I've compiled my journey through classical music from medieval to contemporary in a YouTube video of just one hour, making it a _very brief_ summary: 






My son added captions of some key world events across the centuries.
I know it's pretty much a "middle-of-the-road" compilation, but I hope you'll enjoy it anyway.


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## RICK RIEKERT

justekaia said:


> i can easily listen to rheingold before lunch; tristan after lunch; mahler's third before dinner; and mahler's ninth after dinner; that's my idea of a perfect day; between these i would read some stories by borges; as a matter of fact that is exactly what i did a week ago


I can see how that might be enjoyable, provided one doesn't get indigestion. Interestingly, Borges himself was tone deaf. He never listened to Wagner and when questioned said he had never even heard of Mahler.


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## Kreisler jr

I don't think knowing Mahler's music would have been standard in early/mid-20th century Argentina, unless a person was really into music. 
While claims of "rediscovery" of Mahler in the 1960s was wildly exaggerated wrt some European centres (like Amsterdam and even Vienna who didn't need Lennie to learn their Mahler) it's still true that it was somewhat niche, even a bit later.


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## Chilham

A bit of a lieder-fest this evening. Most pleasant so far.









Hamler: Kindertotenleider
Anne Sofie von Otter, Pierre Boulez, Vienna Philharmonic









Wolf: Moricke Leider
Ian Bostridge. Antonio Pappano


Mahler: Lieder Eines Fahrenden Gesellen
Karen Cargill, Simon Lepper









Mahler: Ruckert Leider
Jamie Barton, Brian Zeger









Mahler: Des Knaben Wunderhorn
Christiane Karg, Malcolm Martineau


----------



## new but obsessed

I've got very little to add to all this except to say that I really enjoyed the week of Elgar. And this week of Debussy and especially Mahler has been wonderful and surprising. The extra time is very welcome because of the sheer length of much of the Mahler. But I've truly enjoyed almost all of what I've heard --- only excerpts from Pelleas & Melisande left from Level 2, and hopefully most if not all of Level 3 before the next week begins.

That recording of Das Lied von der Erde by Rundfunk-SO w/ Connolly & Smith was excellent, I thought. There's just something to Mahler's choral and vocal works that I just love, and those are usually the types of works I've struggled with most on this _journey. _ I find it extra interesting that these lieder are all tied to ancient or classical Chinese poems. If my econ history undergrad can peek out a little here, that late 19th century era was the first big surge of economic and cultural globalization and, of course, German and European colonization gave them increased access to China by the mid-to-late 19th C. Fascinating to see a tangible example of how those major global reorderings left their imprint on Mahler's art.


----------



## Chilham

Coming at you slightly early again. We've had nine enjoyable days with Debussy and Mahler, and I again have commitments tomorrow and over the weekend. I very much enjoyed Mahler, save for Das Lied von Der Erde. I don't know why it's so impenetrable for me. I'll persevere. Debussy's work is pleasant, although La Mer passes me by all too easily. Hugo Wolf was a pleasant surprise. Some delightful lieder. Anyway, the new list is here if you want it, and it'll be here on Saturday if you're still busy with Debussy and Mahler.

Composers born 1864-1865; Sibelius, Richard Strauss, Carl Nielsen, Dukas and Glazunov. Looking forward to it.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
*Sibelius, Jean*: *Symphony No. 2*
*Strauss, Richard*: Vier Letzte Lieder
Strauss, Richard: *Also Sprach Zarathustra*
Sibelius, Jean: Violin Concerto in D minor esp. ii. Adagio di molto
Sibelius, Jean: *Finlandia*
Strauss, Richard: Der Rosenkavalier

*Level 3*
Strauss, Richard: *Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks*
Sibelius, Jean: *Symphony No. 5*
Strauss, Richard: *Salome*
Strauss, Richard: Ein Heldenleben
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 7
Strauss, Richard: *Don Juan*

*Level 4*
Strauss, Richard: Metamorphosen
*Nielsen, Carl*: Symphony No. 5
Strauss, Richard: Death and Transfiguration
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 4 "The Inextinguishable"
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 4
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 3 "Sinfonia Espansiva"
Strauss, Richard: Don Quixote
Strauss, Richard: Elektra
Sibelius, Jean: Lemminkäinen Suite esp. The Swan of Tuonela
*Dukas, Paul*: The Sorcerer's Apprentice
Sibelius, Jean: *Symphony No. 1*
Strauss, Richard: Eine Alpensinfonie
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 6
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 3
*Glazunov, Alexander*: Violin Concerto in A minor esp. ii Andante
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 6 "Sinfonia Semplice"
Sibelius, Jean: *Karelia Suite esp. Intermezzo, iii. Alla Marcia*

*Level 5*
Sibelius, Jean: Tapiola
Glazunov, Alexander: The Seasons
Sibelius, Jean: Valse Triste from Kuolema - Incidental music
Sibelius, Jean: Kullervo
Nielsen, Carl: Clarinet Concerto
Sibelius, Jean: En Saga
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 2 "The Four Temperaments"

*Level 6*
Nielsen, Carl: Wind Quintet
Sibelius, Jean: Pohjola's Daughter
Glazunov, Alexander: Symphony No. 4
Strauss, Richard: Oboe Concerto
Strauss, Richard: Horn Concerto No. 2
Strauss, Richard: Ariadne auf Naxos
Glazunov, Alexander: Symphony No. 5
Sibelius: Night Ride & Sunrise
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 1
Strauss, Richard: Symphonia Domestica
Sibelius, Jean: The Wood Nymph
Sibelius, Jean: Songs (No Ops. mentioned)
Strauss, Richard: Horn Concerto No. 1
Nielsen, Carl: Violin Concerto
Dukas, Paul: Piano Sonata
Sibelius, Jean: The Tempest
Glazunov, Alexander: Saxophone Concerto
Nielsen, Carl: Flute Concerto
Dukas, Paul: Ariane et Barbe-bleue
Dukas, Paul: Le Péri
Glazunov, Alexander: Raymonda
Strauss, Richard: Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Strauss, Richard: Five Songs Op. 39 esp. iv. Befreit

*Level 7*
Nielsen, Carl: Helios Overture
Strauss, Richard: Songs (4) Op. 27 esp. Morgen!
Strauss, Richard: Songs (5), op. 41 esp. Wiegenlied
Strauss, Richard: Burleske
Strauss, Richard: Capriccio
d'Albert, Eugen: Tiefland
Nielsen, Carl: Chaconne
Strauss, Richard: Aus Italien

Honourable mentions:
Capua, Eduardo di: O Sole Mio
*Halvorsen, Johan*: Suite Ancienne, Op. 31a

I have Osmo Vänskä/Minnesota Orchestra lined up for Sibelius' symphonies, Sakari Oramo/Royal Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra for Nielsen, José Serebrier/Royal Scottish National Orchestra for Glazunov, and a range of performers for Strauss.


----------



## Kreisler jr

One should note that the text of LvdE are free translations of free translations. I think Bethge worked with French translations of the Chinese poem and overall they are so far from the originals that it apparently was difficult to identify some of them. Also, in Der Abschied Mahler? combined three? poems. That doesn't mean that the poetry there is bad but it is actually quite far from being "authentic" chinese.

Interestingly, Zemlinsky's Lyric Symphony 10 or 15 years later uses translations of poems by then comtemporary Indian poet Tagore, so also a bit "exotic" but probably these texts are much closer to Tagore than LvdE to the old Chinese poets.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Coming at you slightly early again. We've had nine enjoyable days with Debussy and Mahler, and I again have commitments tomorrow and over the weekend. I very much enjoyed Mahler, save for Das Lied von Der Erde. I don't know why it's so impenetrable for me. I'll persevere. Debussy's work is pleasant, although La Mer passes me by all too easily. Hugo Wolf was a pleasant surprise. Some delightful lieder. Anyway, the new list is here if you want it, and it'll be here on Saturday if you're still busy with Debussy and Mahler.
> 
> Composers born 1864-1865; Sibelius, Richard Strauss, Carl Nielsen, Dukas and Glazunov. Looking forward to it.
> 
> *Level 1*
> No works
> 
> *Level 2*
> *Sibelius, Jean*: *Symphony No. 2*
> *Strauss, Richard*: Vier Letzte Lieder
> Strauss, Richard: *Also Sprach Zarathustra*
> Sibelius, Jean: Violin Concerto in D minor esp. ii. Adagio di molto
> Sibelius, Jean: *Finlandia*
> Strauss, Richard: Der Rosenkavalier
> 
> *Level 3*
> Strauss, Richard: *Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks*
> Sibelius, Jean: *Symphony No. 5*
> Strauss, Richard: *Salome*
> Strauss, Richard: Ein Heldenleben
> Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 7
> Strauss, Richard: *Don Juan*
> 
> *Level 4*
> Strauss, Richard: Metamorphosen
> *Nielsen, Carl*: Symphony No. 5
> Strauss, Richard: Death and Transfiguration
> Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 4 "The Inextinguishable"
> Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 4
> Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 3 "Sinfonia Espansiva"
> Strauss, Richard: Don Quixote
> Strauss, Richard: Elektra
> Sibelius, Jean: Lemminkäinen Suite esp. The Swan of Tuonela
> *Dukas, Paul*: The Sorcerer's Apprentice
> Sibelius, Jean: *Symphony No. 1*
> Strauss, Richard: Eine Alpensinfonie
> Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 6
> Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 3
> *Glazunov, Alexander*: Violin Concerto in A minor esp. ii Andante
> Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 6 "Sinfonia Semplice"
> Sibelius, Jean: *Karelia Suite esp. Intermezzo, iii. Alla Marcia*
> 
> *Level 5*
> Sibelius, Jean: Tapiola
> Glazunov, Alexander: The Seasons
> Sibelius, Jean: Valse Triste from Kuolema - Incidental music
> Sibelius, Jean: Kullervo
> Nielsen, Carl: Clarinet Concerto
> Sibelius, Jean: En Saga
> Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 2 "The Four Temperaments"
> 
> *Level 6*
> Nielsen, Carl: Wind Quintet
> Sibelius, Jean: Pohjola's Daughter
> Glazunov, Alexander: Symphony No. 4
> Strauss, Richard: Oboe Concerto
> Strauss, Richard: Horn Concerto No. 2
> Strauss, Richard: Ariadne auf Naxos
> Glazunov, Alexander: Symphony No. 5
> Sibelius: Night Ride & Sunrise
> Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 1
> Strauss, Richard: Symphonia Domestica
> Sibelius, Jean: The Wood Nymph
> Sibelius, Jean: Songs (No Ops. mentioned)
> Strauss, Richard: Horn Concerto No. 1
> Nielsen, Carl: Violin Concerto
> Dukas, Paul: Piano Sonata
> Sibelius, Jean: The Tempest
> Glazunov, Alexander: Saxophone Concerto
> Nielsen, Carl: Flute Concerto
> Dukas, Paul: Le Péri
> Glazunov, Alexander: Raymonda
> Strauss, Richard: Die Frau Ohne Schatten
> Strauss, Richard: Five Songs Op. 39 esp. iv. Befreit
> 
> *Level 7*
> Nielsen, Carl: Helios Overture
> Strauss, Richard: Songs (4) Op. 27 esp. Morgen!
> Strauss, Richard: Songs (5), op. 41 esp. Wiegenlied
> Strauss, Richard: Burleske
> Strauss, Richard: Capriccio
> d'Albert, Eugen: Tiefland
> Nielsen, Carl: Chaconne
> Strauss, Richard: Aus Italien
> 
> Honourable mentions:
> Capua, Eduardo di: O Sole Mio
> *Halvorsen, Johan*: Suite Ancienne, Op. 31a
> 
> I have Osmo Vänskä/Minnesota Orchestra lined up for Sibelius' symphonies, Sakari Oramo/Royal Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra for Nielsen, José Serebrier/Royal Scottish National Orchestra for Glazunov, and a range of performers for Strauss.


Sibelius 4 would for me be the high point of the instrumental music in this lot -- Rosenkavelier probably the opera I'd choose -- it seems to me one of those almost perfect things, just the right balance of entertainment and "deep ideas." Here's Bernstein in the overture -- he's great because he's so vulgar, if you listen hard you can hear the orgasm at 55 secs. 


BERNSTEIN AT THE ÓPERA XII: DER ROSENKAVALIER (Part 1/3) STRAUSS - YouTube


----------



## new but obsessed

Very grateful for that extra time allotted for the lengthy works of Mahler. But boy did I REALLY enjoy this week. The levels 1-3 works of Mahler very quickly zoomed up the list of faves. I could listen to this stuff endlessly! (Indeed, it feels endless! But since we've had the time, it's mostly not been a problem). 

Trying to wrap up the 6th right now. Got about 40 mins left of it! 🤣 And I've really enjoyed pretty much all of it so far. Hoping to get to the 4th, too! But I also want to check out Albeniz b/c I have a strong affinity for Spain but their music sort of seems off to the side from "Classical" music. I wonder why that is, given that their empire was so central and powerful for so long. 🤔

I did also like the works of Debussy very much. But it didn't quite match the grandeur and splendor of the Mahler works. But Clair de Lune will always be one of my all-time fave ear worms. Maybe mostly because I've loved the Kamasi Washington rendition of it ever since he released his "The Epic" album in 2015.


----------



## Kreisler jr

If you want to save time with R. Strauss, I'd recommend "Salome" because it is short and rather atmospheric, "Don Juan" is my fav of the tone poems.
(You can also save time by skipping a lot of Sibelius  and especially the Glasunov saxophone concerto..)


----------



## new but obsessed

Kreisler jr said:


> If you want to save time with R. Strauss, I'd recommend "Salome" because it is short and rather atmospheric, "Don Juan" is my fav of the tone poems.
> (You can also save time by skipping a lot of Sibelius  and especially the Glasunov saxophone concerto..)


funny. I'm listening to Salome now. Doesn't quite catch my ear as other operas do, though I love Birgitt Nilsson and there are moments on this recording that I find lovely. And ditto Don Juan and Merry Pranks -- not quite my type. 

But I really liked Vier Letze Lieder, Zarathustra, Rosenkavalier, and Heldenleben. And I've really enjoyed Sibelius' Finlandia and his Violin Concerto. Eager to get onto those symphonies 5 & 7!

On the whole, I'm impressed by R. Strauss and curious to dig deeper into Sibelius.


----------



## Mandryka

I've always had a soft spot for the Jews' chorus in Salome, I think it's funny, with the Jews nit picking in a Talmudic way.






And I like the duet between Jochanaan and Salome too, especially when he says "Niemals, Tochter Babylons" Strauss understood women! He knew they don't like to take no for an answer.






What those two youtube clips don't show is that in the opera house it can transcend kitsch. It all depends on having a really good actor playing Jochanaan in my experience.

Strangely Jon Vickers sang Herod. I wonder why.


----------



## Chilham

Kreisler jr said:


> ...You can also save time by skipping a lot of Sibelius  ...


But why would I want to do that? 

Loving Sibelius!


----------



## hammeredklavier

_*"The music paints a gossamer, transcendental image of a mystical swan floating through Tuonela, the realm of the dead. Lemminkäinen, the hero of the epic, has been tasked with killing the sacred swan; but on the way, he is shot with a poisoned arrow and dies. In the next part of the story he is restored to life."*_


----------



## Kreisler jr

Chilham said:


> But why would I want to do that?
> 
> Loving Sibelius!


There was a *huge* amount of Sibelius in that list above and I do think he is a uneven composer with a lot of chaff, like all that incidental music, several of the tone poems etc. (I also think some of his major works are slightly or wildly overrated, some time ago someone made a rather mean comment about the violin concerto but I could not totally disagree that it's downhill after the first 3 min.)


----------



## Chilham

Kreisler jr said:


> There was a *huge* amount of Sibelius in that list above and I do think he is a uneven composer with a lot of chaff, like all that incidental music, several of the tone poems etc. (I also think some of his major works are slightly or wildly overrated, some time ago someone made a rather mean comment about the violin concerto but I could not totally disagree that it's downhill after the first 3 min.)


I'll admit that perhaps my familiarity with the violin concerto, and works like Finlandia and Karelia Suite make me more inclined to enjoy them and therefore rate them more highly. I also had to work quite hard last year to appreciate Sibelius' symphonies, but I got there and overall, on a pure enjoyment level, I'm rating his works more highly than any other composer that I'm listening to a similar volume of works (Mendelssohn, Schumann, Elgar, Vivaldi, Debussy, Chopin).


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> I'll admit that perhaps my familiarity with the violin concerto, and works like Finlandia and Karelia Suite make me more inclined to enjoy them and therefore rate them more highly. I also had to work quite hard last year to appreciate Sibelius' symphonies, but I got there and overall, on a pure enjoyment level, I'm rating his works more highly than any other composer that I'm listening to a similar volume of works (Mendelssohn, Schumann, Elgar, Vivaldi, Debussy, Chopin).



What I found was that Sibelius is seasonal -- 4 and 7 for cold seasons, 2,5 and 6 for warm times.


----------



## justekaia

the thing with sibelius is the unevenness.he undoubtedly produced great music, but i sincerely doubt any of his works was able to sustain high quality until the end. so we should cherish the great moments in his music: violin cto, finlandia, the swan of tuonela, Symphonies 2 and 7, tapiola, the wood-nymph, pelleas and melisande


----------



## Chilham

I guess it's Saturday somewhere in the World.

We recently had a couple of weeks with an extraordinarily large number of highly recommended works. Well, this week, we have the opposite. The same number of recommended works but relatively few in the top levels. A chance to appreciate the work of composers who might otherwise get lost in the deluge from those more famous or prolific.

Composers born 1866-1871. If you're following along, enjoy!

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
*Satie, Erik*: Trois Gymnopédies

*Level 3*
Satie, Erik: Gnossiennes








*Level 4*
*Scriabin, Alexander*: *Symphony No. 4 "The Poem of Ecstasy"*
Scriabin, Alexander: Prometheus "Poem of Fire"
Scriabin, Alexander: 24 Preludes, Op.11 esp. Part III: No 13 in G-flat major
*Granados, Enrique*: Goyescas-Suite esp. 1.Los Requiebros
Scriabin, Alexander: Piano Sonata No. 9 "Black Mass"
Scriabin, Alexander: Piano Sonata No. 8
Scriabin, Alexander: Piano Sonata No. 2 "Sonata-Fantasy"








*Joplin, Scott**:* Maple Leaf Rag

*Level 5*
Scriabin, Alexander: Piano Sonata No. 10
*Roussel, Albert*: Symphony No. 3, Op. 42
Scriabin, Alexander: Piano Sonata No. 5
Scriabin, Alexander: Etude No. 12 in D-sharp Minor Op. 8
Granados, Enrique: Danzas Esapnolas esp. No. 1, No. 2
*Busoni, Ferruccio*: Piano Concerto in C Major








Scriabin, Alexander: Piano Sonata No. 4
Satie, Erik: Three Pear-shaped Pieces
Satie, Erik: Parade
Scriabin, Alexander: Piano Sonata No. 7 "White Mass"
*Beach, Amy*: "Gaelic" Symphony
Roussel, Albert: Bacchus et Ariadne
Scriabin, Alexander: Etudes Op. 42 No. 5
Busoni, Ferruccio: Doktor Faust
Satie, Erik: Sonatine Bureaucratique
Scriabin, Alexander: Etude in C-Sharp Minor, Op. 2 No. 1

*Level 6*
Beach, Amy: Piano Quintet in F-sharp Minor Op. 67
*Zemlinsky, Alexander von*: Lyric Symphony
Beach, Amy: Romance for Violin and Piano
Satie, Erik: Vexations
Satie, Erik: Socrate
Satie, Erik: Je te Veux
Beach, Amy: Violin Sonata
Joplin, Scott: Gladiolus Rag
Scriabin, Alexander: Four Pieces Op. 51
Scriabin, Alexander: Nocturne!
Scriabin, Alexander: Ver La Flamme
*Lekeu, Guillaume*: Violin Sonata in G
Alfvén, Hugo: Swedish Rhapsody No. 1 "Midsummer Vigil"
Beach, Amy: Piano Concerto Op. 45
Busoni, Ferruccio: Fantasia Contrappuntistica
Roussel, Albert: Le Festin de l'Ariagnée
Roussel, Albert: Symphony No. 4
Satie, Erik: Dessicated Embryos
Pfitzner, Hans: Palestrina
Satie, Erik: Pieces Froides
Lehár, Franz: Gold and Silver

*Level 7 *
Zemlinsky, Alexander von: String Quartet No. 2
Scriabin, Alexander: Symphony No. 3
Scriabin, Alexander: Piano Sonata No. 3
Zemlinsky, Alexander von: *String Quartet No. 4*
*Alfvén, Hugo*: Symphony No. 4 "Från Havsbandet"
Kalinnikov, Vasily: Symphony No. 1
Scriabin, Alexander: Symphony No. 2
Scriabin, Alexander: Symphony No. 1
Scriabin, Alexander: Piano Sonata No. 6
Zemlinsky, Alexander von: String Quartet No. 3
Alfvén, Hugo: Symphony No. 3
Cilea, Francesco: Adriana Lecouvreur
Scriabin, Alexander: The Mysterium inc. Preparation for the Final Mystery
Busoni, Ferruccio: Doctor Faust
Pfitzner, Hans Palestrina
Satie, Erik: Sarabandes
Lekeu, Guillaume: Adagio for Strings
Alfvén, Hugo: Dalecarlian Rhapsody
Zemlinsky, Alexander von: Der Zwerg
Zemlinsky, Alexander von: String Quartet No. 1

Honourable mentions:
Lang, Margaret Ruthven: Irish Love Song
McCunn, Hamish: The Land of the Mountain and the Flood
Monti, Vittorio: Csárdás
Cook, Will Marion: Clorindy, or The Origin of the Cake Walk
Godowsky, Leopold: Triakontameron "Alt Wien"


----------



## Xisten267

I think that the Scott Joplin's late opera _Treemonisha_ is wonderful, probably his greatest work in my view. If one can spend some time knowing the composer (the two works on the list gives one less than 10 minutes of his output), I suggest it as the main course. Some of my favorite rags by him that aren't on the above list, and that I recommend, include _The Entertainer_, _The Ragtime Dance_, _Solace_, _Pineapple Rag_, _Magnetic Rag_ and, above all, _Bethena_.


----------



## Mandryka

The selection represents a really important transition in the history of music. On the one hand, there's the chromaticism and expressiveness of Scriabin and maybe Busoni (I say maybe because I know his music less well). And on the other hand you have early Satie, the Satie of Gnossiennes, which was a real source of inspiration for all the very simple music of the post war -- composers like Cage and Skempton.

I used to be completely addicted to Horowitz's Scriabin -- wonderful music for the car.

There's a lot to enjoy here -- and a challenge too if you're used to the likes of Mozart and Wagner and Sibelius. A good challenge. Very soon there will be an even bigger challenge with Webern etc. which disorients most people at first. Get ready to relish the feeling of air from another planet, as Schoenberg liked to say.


----------



## new but obsessed

As someone who has long loved Jazz and its antecedents, I appreciate seeing Joplin on there. And maybe a little surprised too, until i remember that I've seen Treemonisha and some of his other works covered in classical music podcasts.

As Mandryka astutely points out, this is certainly an interesting point, right on the cusp of when "classical" becomes a debatable term. And for some (but not me), so does the term "music".

As a big fan of Cage, Glass, Riley, etc, and someone who also loves what I've heard of Satie, I'm very excited for what's to come.


----------



## Chilham

An interesting week. Satie divides opinion for me. Some, like Trios Gymnopédies, Gnossiennes, Socrate, and Je Te Veux, I absolutely love. Some, like Parade, I absolutely hate. Scriabin was super-interesting and for the most part, very enjoyable to listen to, and Granados a more than pleasant surprise. I'm not a piano concerto-guy, but that Busoni concerto is outstanding, and I really enjoyed Zemlinsky's Lyric Symphony too, but found Amy Beach a little underwhelming.

We still have a couple of weeks of "post-Romantic" composers to cover-off. I've previously done my best to avoid movements and schools as it causes confusion on who's 'in' for this week and who's 'out' for other weeks. This week though, I'm breaking my self-imposed rule and covering a week of composers associated with the English Pastoral School. Be careful not to step in the cow-pat!

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
*Holst, Gustav*: *The Planets*
*Vaughan Williams, Ralph*: Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis

*Level 3*
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: *Lark Ascending*
*Delius, Frederick*: Brigg Fair

*Level 4*
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 2 "The London Symphony"
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 5
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Fantasia on Greensleeves
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 3 "Pastoral"
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 6
Delius, Frederick: Pieces (2) for Small Orchestra “On Hearing the First Cuckoo in Spring” & “Summer Night on the River”
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 4
*Bax, Arnold*: Tintagel

*Level 5*
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: On Wenlock Edge
Holst, Gustav: St. Paul's Suite
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 1 "A Sea Symphony"
Vaughan-Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 7 "Sinfonia Antartica"
Bax, Arnold: Symphony No. 6
Delius, Frederick: Sea Drift
Delius, Frederick: A Village Romeo and Juliet esp. The Walk to the Paradise Garden
Delius, Frederick: A Mass of Life
*Finzi, Gerald*: Clarinet Concerto
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 9
Bax, Arnold: Symphony No. 3

*Level 6*
Finzi, Gerald: Cello Concerto
Bax, Arnold: November Woods
Finzi, Gerald: Dies Natalis
*Warlock, Peter*: Capriol Suite
*Ireland, John*: Piano Concerto in E-flat
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Job, A Masque for Dancing
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Mass in G Minor
Finzi, Gerald: Eclogue Op. 10
*Butterworth, George*: The Banks of Green Willow
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 8
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: English Folksong Suite
Butterworth, George: Shropshire Lad
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Serenade to Music
Holst, Gustav: Egdon Heath
Bax, Arnold: Symphony No. 1
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Five Mystical Songs
Bax, Arnold: Symphony No. 5
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Songs of Travel
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: The Wasps
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Tuba Concerto
*Bridge, Frank*: String Quartet No. 3

*Level 7*
Finzi, Gerald: Romance in E-Flat Major, Op. 11
Bridge, Frank: Sonata for Piano
Delius, Frederick: Florida Suite
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Five Variants of "Dives and Lazarus"
Holst, Gustav: Second Suite for Military Band
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Norfolk Rhapsody No. 1
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Fantasia on Christmas Carols
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Dona Nobis Pacem
Holst, Gustav: First Suite for Military Band
*Quilter, Roger*: Three Shakespeare Songs Op. 6 esp. 1. Come Death, Away
Delius, Frederick: Violin Sonata No. 1
Bridge, Frank: Sonata in D Minor for Cello and Piano
Holst, Gustav: The Cloud Messenger
*Bantock, Granville*: Hebridean Symphony
Holst, Gustav: The Hymn of Jesus
Holst, Gustav: Beni Mora Suite
Delius, Frederick: Eventyr (Once Upon a Time)
Holst, Gustav: Invocation "A Song of the Evening"
Bridge, Frank: Sonata for Violin and Piano
Ireland, John: A Downland Suite
Holst, Gustav: Choral Hymns from the Rig Veda, Op. 26 esp. I. Hymn to the Dawn
Holst, Gustav: Sāvitri
Holst, Gustav: Symphony in F Major "The Cotswolds"
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Sir John in Love

Hounorable mentions:
*Moeran, Ernest John*: Serenade in G

I have Hickox, Handley and others to guide me through the top levels:


----------



## hammeredklavier

*He rises and begins to round,*
_*He drops the silver chain of sound,
Of many links without a break,
In chirrup, whistle, slur and shake.

For singing till his heaven fills,
'Tis love of earth that he instils,
And ever winging up and up,
Our valley is his golden cup
And he the wine which overflows
to lift us with him as he goes.

Till lost on his aerial rings*_
*In light, and then the fancy sings.*


----------



## Chilham

I think perhaps I was just in the right mood for this over the past week, but what a glorious surprise the symphonies of RVW have been.


----------



## Chilham

Ready?

Composers born 1873-1875 except Schoenberg, we'll get to him and his friends next week.

*Level 1*
*Rachmaninoff, Sergei*: *Piano Concerto No. 2 in C minor, Op. 18 esp. II. Adagio sostenuto*

*Level 2*
*Ravel, Maurice*: *Boléro*
Ravel, Maurice: Daphnis et Chloé Lever du jour
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini esp. Variation 18 (Andante cantabile)
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Piano Concerto No. 3 in D minor
Ravel, Maurice: *Piano Concerto in G Major esp. II. Adagio assai*

*Level 3*
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: *Symphony No. 2*
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: "Morceaux de Fantasie" esp. Prelude in C-sharp Minor 
Ravel, Maurice: La Valse
Ravel, Maurice: Rapsodie Espagnole
Ravel, Maurice: *String Quartet in F esp. II. Assez vif: très rythmé*
Ravel, Maurice: Gaspard de la Nuit
Ravel, Maurice: Le Tombeau de Couperin
*Ives, Charles*: Piano Sonata No. 2 "Concord"

*Level 4*
Ravel, Maurice: Pavane Pour une Infante Défunte
Ives, Charles: Symphony No. 4
Ravel, Maurice: Ma Mère l'Oye (Ballet)
Ravel, Maurice: *Miroirs* esp. Alborada del Gracioso No. 4
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: The Isle Of The Dead, Op.29
Ives, Charles: Three Places in New England
Ravel, Maurice: Piano Concerto for the Left Hand
Ives, Charles: *The Unanswered Question*
Ravel, Maurice: Jeux d'Eau
Ives, Charles: Symphony No. 2
Ravel, Maurice: L'Enfant et les Sortilèges
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Vespers "All-Night Vigil", Op.37

*Level 5*
Ravel, Maurice: Shéhérazade
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Piano Sonata No. 2 in B-flat minor
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Symphonic Dances
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Symphony No. 3
Ravel, Maurice: Piano Trio in A minor Op. 67
Ravel, Maurice: Valse Nobles et Sentimentale
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Symphony No. 1
Ravel, Maurice: Tzigane
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Cello Sonata in G minor, Op.19
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: The Bells, Op.35
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Songs (14) Op.34 esp. No. 14 "Vocalise"
Ravel, Maurice: L'Heure Espagnole
*Suk, Josef*: Symphony No 2 "Asrael"
Ravel, Maurice: Introduction and Allegro for Harp, Flute, Clarinet, and String Quartet
*Reger, Max*: Variations and Fugue on a Theme by JA Hiller
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Etudes Tableaux
Ravel, Maurice: Violin Sonata No. 2
Ives, Charles: 114 Songs esp. The Circus Band, General Booth Enters Heaven

*Level 6*
Schmidt, Franz Symphony No. 4
Ravel, Maurice: Sonatine, M. 40 II. Mouvement de menuet
*Glière, Reinhold*: Symphony No. 3 op. 42 "Ilya Muromets"
Reger, Max: Four Tone Poems after Arnold Böcklin
Ives, Charles: New England Holidays Symphony
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Piano Concerto No. 1
Ives, Charles: Symphony No. 3 'The Camp Meeting'
Ives, Charles: String Quartet No. 2
Ives, Charles: Central Park in the Dark
Hahn, Reynaldo: Chanson Grises esp. L’heure Exquise
Suk, Josef: Serenade für Strings in E-flat major, Op. 6 esp. III. Adagio
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Variations on a Theme of Corelli
Reger, Max: Piano Concerto in F Minor
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, Op. 31 esp. X. Tebe poem (We praise Thee)
Hahn Reynaldo: Piano Quintet
Reger, Max: Introduction, Passacaglia and Fugue in E Minor

*Level 7 *
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: "Elegiac" Piano Trio No. 1
Reger, Max: Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Mozart
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Trio Élégiaque No. 2
Reger, Max: Cello Suites Op. 131 esp. No. 1
Suk, Josef: Summer Tale
Kreisler, Fritz: Liebesleid
Suk, Josef: Zráni
*Coleridge-Taylor, Samuel*: Song of Hiawatha Hiawatha's Wedding Feast
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Variations on a Theme by Chopin
Ravel, Maurice: Don Quichotte à Dulcinée
Glière, Reinhold: The Red Poppy
Ives, Charles: Violin Sonata No. 1

Honourable mentions:
Montemezzi, Italo: L'Amore Dei Tre Re
Bersa, Blagoje: Notturno
Handy, William Christopher: The Memphis Blues


Edited to combine and elevate Prelude in C sharp Minor with Morceaux de Fantasie.


----------



## Mandryka

You absolutely must listen to Reger's Hiller Variations.

Max Reger - Variationen und Fuge auf ein Thema von J.A.Hiller op.100 - YouTube

By the way, last week I hope you didn't miss Scriabin's nocturne - like the Reger variations, very Brahmsian, get your hankie out to wipe the tear away.

ALEXANDER SCRIABIN - NOCTURNE FOR THE LEFT HAND OPUS 9 No. 2 - ALEXIS WEISSENBERG - YouTube

And while you've got the hankie ready, try Reynaldo Hahn's _L’heure Exquise._ Ideally you want to hear the composer singing it in Proust's cork lined bedroom, but this will have to do instead

L'Heure exquise - YouTube

I think Ravel's _Don Quichotte à Dulcinée_ is fun enough to be worth a listen now and then

Gérard Souzay: The complete "Don Quichotte à Dulcinée" (Ravel) - YouTube

For some reason I can't explain, I have a soft spot for Ravel's _Valses nobles et semtimentales_. Pogorelich completely reconstructed and deconstructed it, the performance makes me think of ghosts, and is IMO one which captures the artist on the borderline of sanity and madness. These are the waltzes they danced in that hotel in The Shining.

Ravel: Valses nobles et sentimentales, M. 61 - I. Modéré - très franc - YouTube


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## Chilham

I love l'Heure Exquise. I read somewhere that when Verlaine first heard it, he cried.


----------



## Mandryka

If you can understand French it may be of interest to hear Boulez on Hahn -- he was a hater

La composition chez Proust - Littérature française moderne et contemporaine : histoire, critique, théorie (2005-2020) - Collège de France - 02 avril 2013 17:30 (college-de-france.fr)

Verlaine was always crying. There's a story in Rambaud's letters about how, when they were living in London, Verlaine sent him out to Chapel Street market in Islington to buy some herrings. Rambaud came back with mackerel. Result -- endless tears.


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## justekaia

Chilham said:


> I love l'Heure Exquise. I read somewhere that when Verlaine first heard it, he cried.


Reynaldo Hahn is a major composer and I love every work he has written for instruments or voices. Although he was born in Venezuela i consider him to be a French composer, conductor, music critic and singer. There are interesting recent discoveries in his work.


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## Mandryka

Boulez singles out Verlaine's poem _Le ciel est par-dessus le toit_, in settings by Fauré and Hahn. He thinks the Fauré is a work of genius, and the Hahn a work of great vulgarity.

Reynaldo HAHN - D'une prison (Paul Verlaine) - Bruno LAPLANTE, baryton.mov - YouTube

Fauré: Prison - Jaroussky - YouTube


----------



## new but obsessed

Last week's RVW wasn't my favorite. Wasn't too into his Symphony 5. Brigg Fair was and the RVW tone poems were more my speed.

But this week I'm really enjoying Ravel and Rach. I'd not previously listened to much Rach -- good stuff! Piano Concerto 2 was awesome! And with Ravel, I'd only known Bolero and Le Tombeau de Couperin (one of my all-time faves! It has that same sort of off-kilter danciness that reminds me of what I love in some post-1977 punk/alternative/art rock). Daphnis et Chloe didn't disappoint. Got a lot left ahead of me, including those works by Ives, which I've been meaning to get into since stumbling across a TC thread about his work here: Charles Ives Orchestral Works


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## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> Last week's RVW wasn't my favorite. Wasn't too into his Symphony 5. Brigg Fair was and the RVW tone poems were more my speed.
> 
> But this week I'm really enjoying Ravel and Rach. I'd not previously listened to much Rach -- good stuff! Piano Concerto 2 was awesome! And with Ravel, I'd only known Bolero and Le Tombeau de Couperin (one of my all-time faves! It has that same sort of off-kilter danciness that reminds me of what I love in some post-1977 punk/alternative/art rock). Daphnis et Chloe didn't disappoint. Got a lot left ahead of me, including those works by Ives, which I've been meaning to get into since stumbling across a TC thread about his work here: Charles Ives Orchestral Works


Personally, I preferred Ives' Symphony No 2 to No. 4. The Concord Piano Sonata is interesting listening.


----------



## Chilham

I still have some listening to do from this week's list. Finishing off Rachmaninov today, and turning to complete Ives tomorrow, I'll have got down to his String Quartet No. 2 in Level 6. Some great listening. Ravel blows a little hot and cold for me, but Rachmaninov has surprised me, in a positive way, and the Suk and Schmidt symphonies were delightful.

I'll be travelling tomorrow and Saturday, and am unsure of internet accessibility at our destination (likely to become a thing over coming weeks), so am posting up next week's listing early. Composers born 1876-1879, plus all associated with the Second Viennese School. My limited experience suggests I may find some of what's to come a little challenging but I'm approaching it all with an open mind.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
*Berg, Alban*: Violin Concerto

*Level 3*
*Schoenberg, Arnold*: Verklärte Nacht
Berg, Alban: Wozzeck
Schoenberg, Arnold: Pierrot Lunaire
Berg, Alban: *Lyric Suite*
*Respighi, Ottorino*: *Pines of Rome*
*de Falla, Manuel*: El Sombrero de Tres Picos

*Level 4*
Schoenberg, Arnold: Chamber Symphony No. 1
Schoenberg, Arnold: Five Pieces for Orchestra
*Webern, Anton von*: Symphonie Op. 21
Webern, Anton von: Passacaglia for Orchestra
de Falla, Manuel: El Amor Brujo esp. Ritual Fire Dance'
Canteloube, Joseph: Chants d'Auvergne, Vol. 1 esp. No. 2. Bailero
de Falla, Manuel: Noches en los Jardines de España
Respighi, Ottorino: Fountains of Rome
Webern, Anton von: Six Pieces for Orchestra
Schoenberg, Arnold: Gurrelieder

*Level 5*
Schoenberg, Arnold: Variations for Orchestra
Berg, Alban: Piano Sonata No. 1 esp. Mässigbe wegt
Schoenberg, Arnold: *String Quartets esp. No. 2*, No. 3, *No. 4*
Schoenberg, Arnold: Klavierstücke Three Piano Pieces Op 11
Webern, Anton von: String Quartet Op. 28
Berg, Alban: Lulu
Schoenberg, Arnold: Moses und Aron
Schoenberg, Arnold: A Survivor from Warsaw
Schoenberg, Arnold: Violin Concerto
Berg, Alban: Three Pieces for Orchestra
*Ruggles, Carl*: Sun-Treader
Webern, Anton von: Five Pieces for Orchestra Op. 10
Schoenberg, Arnold: Erwartung
Webern, Anton von: Variations for Orchestra
Respighi, Ottorino: The Birds
Schoenberg, Arnold: Pelleas und Melisande
de Falla, Manuel: La Vida Breve
Schoenberg, Arnold: Five Piano Pieces Op. 23

*Level 6*
Schoenberg, Arnold: Piano Concerto
*Dohnányi, Ernö von*: Piano Quintet No. 1
Berg, Alban: String Quartet
Respighi, Ottorino: Feste Romane
Schoenberg, Arnold: Suite for Piano Op. 25
de Falla, Manuel: Harpsichord Concerto
Webern, Anton von: *Six Bagatelles for String Quartet*
Webern, Anton von: Concerto for Nine Instruments
Schoenberg, Arnold: Die Glückliche Hand
Berg, Alban: Chamber Concerto
Schoenberg, Arnold: Trio for Strings Op. 45
Webern, Anton von: Variations for Piano
Respighi, Ottorino: Ancient Airs and Dances
Berg, Alban: Altenberger Lieder
Webern, Anton von: Cantata No. 2
*Brian, Havergal*: Symphony No. 1 "Gothic"
Respighi, Ottorino: Trittico Botticelliano
Dohnányi, Ernö von: Variations on a Nursery Song
*Carpenter, John Alden*: Adventures in a Perambulator
Berg, Alban: Der Wein
de Falla, Manuel: Suite Populaire Espagnole d'Après Siete Canciones Populares
Schoenberg, Arnold: Six Little Piano Pieces Op. 19

*Level 7 *
Webern, Anton von: Five Pieces for String Quartet
Berg, Alban: Kammerkonzert
Respighi, Ottorino: Church Windows
Dohnányi, Ernö von: *String Quartet No. 2*
Webern, Anton von: Langsamer Satz
Schoenberg, Arnold: Das Buch der Hángenden Gärten
*Wolf-Ferrari, Ermano*: Chamber Symphony
Respighi, Ottorino: Violin Sonata
*Schrecker, Franz*: Der Ferne Klang
Webern, Anton von: Three Little Pieces for Cello and Piano
Webern, Anton von: Cantata No. 1
Webern, Anton von: String Trio
Schoenberg, Arnold: Wind Quartet
Schoenberg, Arnold: Ode to Napoleon
Webern, Anton von: Das Augenlicht
Carpenter, John Alden: Sky-Scapers
Schoenberg, Arnold: Serenade
Schoenberg, Arnold: Suite Op. 29
Schoenberg, Arnold: Die Jakobsleiter

Honourable mentions:
Wieniawski, Regine "Poldowski": 14 Songs to the Texts by Paul Verlaine


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> You absolutely must listen to Reger's Hiller Variations. ....


Forgot to say, I loved both Reger works I listened to.


----------



## new but obsessed

I agree with your assessment of last week. Rach was unfailingly tuneful and engaging. Whereas Ravel was more variable for me. Still, I love some Ravel greatly. So no slight on him. As for Ives: The Piano Sonata 2 "Concord," unfortunately, was not my cup of tea. I'll try again with Ives sometime in the future.

I've long been intrigued by the prospect of this week's era. I've certainly heard the names of Berg and Schoenberg as they loom large over modern music. But this may be the first time I've consciously listened to any. And with bonus new names in Respighi and Da Falla!

So far, I've enjoyed the top recommended Berg and Schoenberg Violin Concertos. Currently listening to Wozzeck. Wasn't expecting to enjoy it as much as I do! Not top of my opera lists, but also something I wouldn't mind listening to again and hopefully seeing in person. Reminds me of the few bits of Brecht and Weil that I've heard over the years, and in a good way. (I have a vague, faint memory that my high school's theater group also performed an english adaptation of Woyzeck, and I remember being impressed by and enjoying the unabashed oddity of that production, but I don't remember much else.)


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## Chilham

I confess, I can live quite contentedly without ever listening to Schoenberg again. Respighi was delightful, de Falla enjoyable, and Berg interesting. Webern passed me by a little quickly. I was tired. Will revisit.


----------



## Chilham

It's opera week! Composers born 1841-1939, known mostly for their opera.

Looking forward to reacquainting myself with Cavalleria Rusticana and Paggliacci, and a bit of Gilbert & Sullivan. Never been much of a Puccini fan. Let's see if this week can change my opinion.

*Level 1*
*Puccini, Giacomo*: La Bohème

*Level 2*
Puccini, Giacomo: Tosca

*Level 3*
Puccini, Giacomo: *Madame Butterfly*
Puccini, Giacomo: Turandot
Mascagni, Pietro: Cavalleria Rusticana
Leoncavallo, Ruggero: Pagliacci esp. Act 1: "Vestilagiubba"
Massenet, Olivier: Manon

*Level 4*
*Humperdinck, Engelbert*: Hánsel und Gretel
Lehár, Franz: Die Lustige Witwe
*Sullivan, Arthur* & Gilbert, WS: *The Mikado*
Puccini, Giacomo: Gianni Schicchi (Il Trittico)
Puccini, Giacomo: Manon Lescaut
Giordano, Umberto: Andrea Chénier esp. La Mamma Morta
Puccini, Giacomo: La Fanciulla Del West
Sullivan, Arthur & Gilbert, WS: HMS Pinafore
Ponchielli, Amilcare: La Gioconda esp. Dance of the Hours
Sullivan, Arthur & Gilbert, WS: *Pirates of Penzance*
Puccini, Giacomo: La Rondine esp. Chi Il Bel Sogno di Doretta, Bevo al Tuo Fresco Sorriso

*Level 5*
Massenet, Olivier: Thais esp. Meditation
Massenet, Olivier: Werther
Menotti, Gian-Carlo: Amahl and the Night Visitors
Boito, Arrigo: Mefistofele
*Wolf-Ferarri, Ermanno*: Il Segreto di Susanna

*Level 6*
Puccini, Giacomo: Il Tabarro (Il Trittico)
Menotti, Gian Carlo: The Saint of Bleecker Street

*Level 7 *
Puccini, Giacomo: Suor Angelica (Il Trittico)
Cilea, Francesco: Adriana Lecouvreur
Menotti, Gian-Carlo: The Old Maid and the Thief
Sullivan, Arthur & Gilbert, WS: Iolanthe
Sullivan, Arthur & Gilbert, WS: The Gondeliers
Mascagni, Pietro: L'Amigo Fritz
Lehár, Franz: The Land of Smiles
Sullivan, Arthur & Gilbert, WS: The Yeoman of the Guard

Honourable mentions:
Catalani, Alfredo: La Wally esp. Ebben? Ne Andro Lantano (I Shall Go Far Away)
Charpentier, Gustave: La Vie du Poète, Louise
Franchetti, Alberto: Germania
Floyd, Carlisle: Susannah


----------



## hammeredklavier




----------



## new but obsessed

I greatly enjoyed last week. And, maybe unusually, this coming week was the one I've been anxious about. I know I've repeated this elsewhere, but I've struggled with Puccini unlike with any other major opera composer. I don't know why. I like Butterfly but Boheme has _always_ been a struggle for me, both live and on recording. And that is despite Boheme's intriguing, dramatic, interesting story. I couldn't tell you why I find Wozzeck more appealing. Or why I find Butterfly more appealing, for that matter.

But, it'll be a heavy dose of Puccini this week. Will try Boheme yet again. Keeping all the opera listening to "highlights" discs just for time -- lots of Callas lined up for and Carreras this week. 

And, kudos to the amazing timing yet again (as with the Dvorak week). By sheer coincidence I will be at a local concert performance of Manon Lescaut on Oct 2, which opens the season for our small local opera company. So maybe, just maybe, I'll be all in on Puccini by then. 😅


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## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> It's opera week! Composers born 1841-1939, known mostly for their opera.
> 
> Looking forward to reacquainting myself with Cavalleria Rusticana and Paggliacci, and a bit of Gilbert & Sullivan. Never been much of a Puccini fan. Let's see if this week can change my opinion.
> 
> *Level 1*
> Puccini, Giacomo: La Bohème
> 
> *Level 2*
> Puccini, Giacomo: Tosca
> 
> *Level 3*
> Puccini, Giacomo: *Madame Butterfly*
> Puccini, Giacomo: Turandot
> Mascagni, Pietro: Cavalleria Rusticana
> Leoncavallo, Ruggero: Pagliacci esp. Act 1: "Vestilagiubba"
> Massenet, Olivier: Manon
> 
> *Level 4*
> Humperdinck, Engelbert: Hánsel und Gretel
> Lehár, Franz: Die Lustige Witwe
> Sullivan, Arthur & Gilbert, WS: *The Mikado*
> Puccini, Giacomo: Gianni Schicchi (Il Trittico)
> Puccini, Giacomo: Manon Lescaut
> Giordano, Umberto: Andrea Chénier esp. La Mamma Morta
> Puccini, Giacomo: La Fanciulla Del West
> Sullivan, Arthur & Gilbert, WS: HMS Pinafore
> Ponchielli, Amilcare: La Gioconda esp. Dance of the Hours
> Sullivan, Arthur & Gilbert, WS: *Pirates of Penzance*
> Puccini, Giacomo: La Rondine esp. Chi Il Bel Sogno di Doretta, Bevo al Tuo Fresco Sorriso
> 
> *Level 5*
> Massenet, Olivier: Thais esp. Meditation
> Massenet, Olivier: Werther
> Menotti, Gian-Carlo: Amahl and the Night Visitors
> Boito, Arrigo: Mefistofele
> Wolf-Ferarri, Ermanno: Il Segreto di Susanna
> 
> *Level 6*
> Puccini, Giacomo: Il Tabarro (Il Trittico)
> Menotti, Gian Carlo: The Saint of Bleecker Street
> 
> *Level 7 *
> Puccini, Giacomo: Suor Angelica (Il Trittico)
> Cilea, Francesco: Adriana Lecouvreur
> Menotti, Gian-Carlo: The Old Maid and the Thief
> Sullivan, Arthur & Gilbert, WS: Iolanthe
> Sullivan, Arthur & Gilbert, WS: The Gondeliers
> Mascagni, Pietro: L'Amigo Fritz
> Lehár, Franz: The Land of Smiles
> Sullivan, Arthur & Gilbert, WS: The Yeoman of the Guard
> 
> Honourable mentions:
> Catalani, Alfredo: La Wally esp. Ebben? Ne Andro Lantano (I Shall Go Far Away)
> Charpentier, Gustave: La Vie du Poète, Louise
> Franchetti, Alberto: Germania
> Floyd, Carlisle: Susannah


Puccini’s fabulous. And so is Pagliacci. Not sure about the rest on the list. Andrea Chénier maybe worth a shot - and Werther. I’ve seen both and I don’t think it was too painful. Le Wally has a good aria.


----------



## Mandryka

Anna Netrebko (La Wally) Ebben ne andro lontana (Paris 2007) - YouTube 

It does sound like some generic late c19 aria to me, it could be by anyone -- Puccini, Leoncavolo, and as it happens it's by Alfredo Catalani (who he?) There clearly was a formula for arias. 

It became famous in a good film called DIva 

Diva - Trailer - YouTube


----------



## new but obsessed

I managed to see Diva in high school. I was probably too young and didn't at all get it. I should revisit it one day


----------



## Mandryka

Pagliacci has the famous Vesti la giubba. It's one of those arias where the singer can easily lapse into the worst sort of sentimental melodrama. And James McCracken was famous for not holding back

James McCracken "Vesti la giubba" Pagliacci - YouTube

But it's best of all in the Marx Brothers, Night at the Opera, where one of them sings

_Ridi, Pagliaccio 
I love you very mucho_

But I can't find the clip on youtube.


----------



## hammeredklavier

The Miserly Knight


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## Mandryka

hammeredklavier said:


> The Miserly Knight


I’ve seen this in the opera house, it was without a doubt the most boring opera I’ve ever seen.


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## pianozach

Mandryka said:


> I’ve seen this in the opera house, it was without a doubt the most boring opera I’ve ever seen.


I'm not familiar with *The Miserly Knight*, but I'll take your word for it.

That said, I've seen perfectly good plays, musicals, and operettas presented in a most boring way.

Is it possible that the opera isn't bad at all, and that you merely wandered into a lousy production of it?


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## RICK RIEKERT

pianozach said:


> I'm not familiar with *The Miserly Knight*, but I'll take your word for it.
> 
> That said, I've seen perfectly good plays, musicals, and operettas presented in a most boring way.
> 
> Is it possible that the opera isn't bad at all, and that you merely wandered into a lousy production of it?


Or the opera company may just have been having a bad Knight.


----------



## new but obsessed

I think Rick needs to be a bit more miserly with his puns 😜

Any major Puccini fans out there? I'm still running hot and cold on his music. As always, I continue to greatly enjoy Madama Butterfly. And I gave a Callas recording of La Boheme highlights a spin and finally finally finally enjoyed much of that music after flopping with other recordings and a live performance in the past. But then I listened to a similar Callas Tosca highlights from La Scala and found it pretty unappealing to listen to.

Any tips? Aside from the obvious which is to watch them live to get the full experience of the drama? (I would if I had the chance). It bugs me that of all the opera composers that I've heard, it's Puccini that is the lone one I struggle with, esp. since he's one of the biggest names in the genre. And so I feel like I'm missing something that sets his music apart or something that unlocks it for folks. Any and all thoughts appreciated.


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## Mandryka

What is born each night and dies each dawn?


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> I think Rick needs to be a bit more miserly with his puns 😜
> 
> Any major Puccini fans out there? I'm still running hot and cold on his music. As always, I continue to greatly enjoy Madama Butterfly. And I gave a Callas recording of La Boheme highlights a spin and finally finally finally enjoyed much of that music after flopping with other recordings and a live performance in the past. But then I listened to a similar Callas Tosca highlights from La Scala and found it pretty unappealing to listen to.
> 
> Any tips? Aside from the obvious which is to watch them live to get the full experience of the drama? (I would if I had the chance). It bugs me that of all the opera composers that I've heard, it's Puccini that is the lone one I struggle with, esp. since he's one of the biggest names in the genre. And so I feel like I'm missing something that sets his music apart or something that unlocks it for folks. Any and all thoughts appreciated.


I sat through Tosca at the ROH many years ago - corporate hospitality as host including dinner in the, "King's dressing room" during the interval - and together with the dreadful company I was forced to "enjoy" that evening, I left with a low opinion of Puccini that has never recovered.

That said, I found the Netrebko/Villazón DG recording of La Bohème very pleasant, but my experience of the Callas/La Scala recording was the same as yours. I'm setting aside tomorrow to listen a second time to the Freni/Carerras Madama Butterfly, and highlights from the Bocceli/Wilson Turandot which I'm completely unfamiliar with.


----------



## Kreisler jr

I don't know all of Puccini but while I don't much care for La boheme and Butterfly, Tosca is my favorite and I love the atmospheric exoticism of at least the first act of Turandot. Tosca might be a shabby little  emotional and gripping shocker but it does what it does really well and with good pacing.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> What is born each night and dies each dawn?


Tell me, what is born each night and dies each dawn?


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> What is born each night and dies each dawn?


La speranza è un sogno ad occhi aperti.
~Aristotele


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Tell me, what is born each night and dies each dawn?


You're going to have to listen to Puccini to find out I'm afraid.

Oh, Oh I see Rick's given the game away. Let's try this then.

_ What flares warm like a flame, yet it is no flame?_


----------



## Mandryka

I just listened to to the Rodolfo/Marcello duet in Act 4 of Bohème, and it made me think of the last chapter of L'éducation sentimentale. And then I started to think about exoticism in Salammbô and Turandot. (I don't say I thought very deeply about these things!)

The elephant in the room, by the way, when thinking about Puccini, is Fanciulla -- to me, it sounds so modern! Like Ariadne. I find it easy to forget that Puccini was working at more or less the same time as Strauss.


----------



## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> I don't know all of Puccini but while I don't much care for La boheme and Butterfly, Tosca is my favorite and I love the atmospheric exoticism of at least the first act of Turandot. Tosca might be a shabby little  emotional and gripping shocker but it does what it does really well and with good pacing.


Get your hankie ready to wipe away the tear. 

Giuseppe di Stefano - E lucevan le stelle (Studio recording) - YouTube


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> You're going to have to listen to Puccini to find out I'm afraid.
> 
> Oh, Oh I see Rick's given the game away. Let's try this then.
> 
> _ What flares warm like a flame, yet it is no flame?_


I hope I can work that one out.


----------



## Chilham

Chilham said:


> ... I'm setting aside tomorrow to listen a second time to the Freni/Carerras Madama Butterfly, and highlights from the Bocceli/Wilson Turandot which I'm completely unfamiliar with.


Well that was remiss of me. I saw Turandot at the opera house in Bordeaux back in 2003 or 2004, featuring a Korean tenor who kept missing his notes. It was evidently a forgettable performance.


----------



## justekaia

Tosca, Butterfly and Turandot are powerful unforgettable operas with beautiful melodies and good librettos. I think Puccini is the perfect example of a composer who writes in an old style but does it so well that it does not matter when he composed his masterpieces.


----------



## Kreisler jr

justekaia said:


> I think Puccini is the perfect example of a composer who writes in an old style but does it so well that it does not matter when he composed his masterpieces.


I don't really understand this remark. Isn't this true of all composers who wrote before, say 1970 (or 1950 or 2000 or some other cutoff separating old and new) but are still performed regularly (i.e. not for on-off historical revivals and back to the archives).


----------



## justekaia

Kreisler jr said:


> I don't really understand this remark. Isn't this true of all composers who wrote before, say 1970 (or 1950 or 2000 or some other cutoff separating old and new) but are still performed regularly (i.e. not for on-off historical revivals and back to the archives).


it is just a perfect example; millions of composers can attempt this, however i doubt they will succeed like puccini


----------



## Chilham

If you're as bored as me with this weeks opera, have next weeks listing. Composers born 1880-1883 except Stravinsky. You're welcome.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2 *
*Bartók, Bela*: Concerto for Orchestra

*Level 3*
Bartók, Bela: Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta
Bartók, Bela: *String Quartet No. 4*
Bartók, Bela: Violin Concerto No. 2

*Level 4*
Bartók, Bela: String Quartet No. 6
Bartók, Bela: Piano Concerto No. 2
Bartók, Bela: String Quartet No. 5
Bartók, Bela: *String Quartet No. 3*
Bartók, Bela: Bluebeard's Castle
Bartók, Bela: String Quartet No. 2
Bartók, Béla: The Miraculous Mandarin
*Kodály, Zoltán*: Háry János Suite
Bartók, Bela: Piano Concerto No. 3
*Varèse, Edgard*: Amériques
Bartók, Bela: String Quartet No. 1
Varèse, Edgard: Ionization
Bartók, Béla: Romanian Folk Dances Sz68 esp. II Brâul [Sash Dance]

*Level 5*
Kodály, Zoltán: Sonata for Cello
Bartók, Bela: Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion
Bartók, Bela: Piano Concerto No. 1
Bartók, Bela: Sonata for Solo Violin
Bartók, Bela: Mikrokosmos
*Szymanowski, Karol*: Violin Concerto No. 1
Bartók, Bela: Dance Suite
Varèse, Edgard: Poème électronique
Turina, Joaquín: Danzas Fantásticas
Bloch, Ernest: Rhapsodie Hébraïque "Schelomo"
*Enescu, George*: Romanian Rhapsodies No. 1 & 2
Bartók, Bela: Divertimento for String Orchestra
Kodály, Zoltán: Dances of Galanta
Bartók, Bela: Violin Concerto No. 1
Kodály, Zoltán: Variations on a Hungarian Folk Song "The Peacock"
*Grainger, Percy*: Handel in The Strand

*Level 6*
Szymanowski, Karol: Stabat Mater
*Bloch, Ernest*: Piano Quintet No. 1
Varèse, Edgard: Déserts
Kodály, Zoltán: Psalmus Hungaricus
Szymanowski, Karol: Symphony No. 4 "Symphonie Concertante"
Szymanowski, Karol: Symphony No. 3 "The Song of the Night"
Enescu, George: Oedipe
Grainger, Percy: Lincolnshire Posy
Varèse, Edgard: Intégrales
Varèse, Edgard: Density 21.5
Bartók, Bela: *Allegro Barbaro*
Bloch, Ernest: Concerto Grosso No. 1
Varèse, Edgard: Arcana for Orchestra
Bartók, Bela: Rhapsody (Contrasts)
Bartók, Bela: Cantata Profana
Enescu, George: Octet in C Major
Szymanowski, Karol: String Quartet No. 2
Grainger, Percy: Londonderry Air
Szymanowski, Karol: King Roger
Szymanowski, Karol: String Quartet No. 1
Kodály, Zoltán: Summer Evening
Varèse, Edgard: Octandre
Szymanowski, Karol: Violin Concerto No. 2

*Level 7*
*Medtner, Nikolai*: Piano Concerto No. 2
Medtner, Nikolai: Forgotten Melodies, Book I, Op. 38 esp. 1. Sonata Reminiscenza
Varèse, Edgard: Arcana
Bloch, Ernest: String Quartet No. 1
Medtner, Nikolai: Fairy Tales
Bartók, Bela: Concerto for Viola
Bartók, Bela: The Wooden Prince
Bloch, Ernest: Violin Concerto
Bartók, Bela: Sonata for Piano
Bloch, Ernest: String Quartet No. 2
Bartók, Bela: Sonata No. 1 for Violin and Piano
Szymanowski, Karol: Mythes
Bartók, Bela: Sonata No. 2 for Violin and Piano
Bloch, Ernest: Concerto Grosso No. 2
Szymanowski, Karol: Métopes
*Langgaard, Rued*: Symphony No. 6 "Det Himmelrivende"
Enescu, George: Symphony No. 1
Enescu, George: Violin Sonata No. 2
Varèse, Edgard: Equatorial
Bloch, Ernest: Baal Shem Suite
Enescu, George: Piano Sonata No. 1
Enescu, George: Piano Sonata No. 3
Bloch, Ernest: String Quartet No. 5
Bloch, Ernest: String Quartet No. 3
Hauer, Joseph: Nomos
Bloch, Ernest: Sacred Service
Medtner, Nikolai: Piano Concerto No. 1
Szymanowski, Karol: Piano Sonata No. 3
Kodály, Zoltán: Te Deum
*Myaskovsky, Nikolai*: Symphony No. 6
Enescu, George: Sonata No. 2 for Cello and Piano

Honourable mentions:
Bainton, Edgar: And I Saw a New Heaven
Foulds, John: Keltic Suite Op. 29 esp. 2. Lament
Pizzeti, Ildebrando: Concerto dell'Estate
Kelly, Frederick Septimus: Elegy - In Memoriam Rupert Brooke
Dett, R Nathaniel: Magnolia esp. Part 1, No. 1, "Magnolias"
Ponce, Manuel: Suite en Estilo Antiguo
*Casella, Alfredo*: Italia, Paganiniana for Orchestra
Harris, William : Bring us, O Lord God, Faire is the Heaven


----------



## Mandryka

The Ponce is nice and relaxing, agreeable. Check it out.

Varèse Deserts and Poème électronique are the most interesting things for me in that bunch, closely followed by the Bartok Quartets 3 - 5.

This looks to me as though it could be an excellent Miraculous Mandarin



Bartok Daniel Kawka ONPL Le Mandarin Merveilleux - YouTube


----------



## new but obsessed

Every time Bartok has come up on the radio I've dug it. No different today listening to the Concerto, Strings+Percussion+Celesta, and now S Quart 4. My kind 'o music!


----------



## Mandryka

Frank Zappa on Edgard Varèse





__





Zappa on Varese (1971)






rchrd.com





And a paper on the creation of Deserts in 1954, 40 years after Rite of Spring, and a long time after Schoenberg and Webern 









Un mythe fondateur de la musique contemporaine : le « scandale » provoqué en 1954 par la création de Déserts d'Edgar Varèse


Julien MATHIEU Un mythe fondateur de la musique contemporaine: le «scandale» provoqué par la création de Désertsd’Edgar Varèse, le 2 décembre 1954 Le deux décembre 1954 à Paris, au Théâtre des Champs-Élysées, était créée, dans le cadre de la programmation musicale de la R.T.F., une œuvre d’un...




www.cairn.info


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> The Ponce is nice and relaxing, agreeable. Check it out.
> 
> Varèse Deserts and Poème électronique are the most interesting things for me in that bunch, closely followed by the Bartok Quartets 3 - 5...


Varèse doesn't do much for me other than tempt me to fast-forward but, but, but ... Oh, my goodness! Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra, Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, VC2, PC2, Szymanowski's VC1, Bloch's "Schelomo" and PQ1, Kodály's "Peacock" and Cello Sonata. What a super week this is turning out to be. Maybe not your, "Cup of tea", but it certainly seems to be mine.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Varèse doesn't do much for me other than tempt me to fast-forward but, but, but ... Oh, my goodness! Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra, Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, VC2, PC2, Szymanowski's VC1, Bloch's "Schelomo" and PQ1, Kodály's "Peacock" and Cello Sonata. What a super week this is turning out to be. Maybe not your, "Cup of tea", but it certainly seems to be mine.



The truth is that I am not much interested in concertos. I remember thinking that Bartok PC2 and the Szymanowsky VC 1 were OK, especially the Bartok. Good old recordings of them with Bolet for the Bartok and Wanda Vikomirskaya for the Szymanowski - no doubt there are excellent modern ones, I haven’t kept up. (That being said, I do think that there was a real “golden age” for violinists. Those early violinists just knew how to use microtones expressively.)

Have you tried the Bartok solo violin sonata? This came out recently and I really enjoyed the whole thing 









The Strad Reviews - Nurit Stark: Bartók, Ligeti, Veress, Eötvös


Hungarian treats offered with plenty of pizzazz




www.thestrad.com


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Bartok's _Divertimento_ seems to me a perfect amalgam of his style and is probably the work of his I listen to most often and always with pleasure.


----------



## Chilham

What an outstanding week! Loved it. Bartók has rocketed into my list of top-10 composers, and Kodály earmarked for a lot more listening in the future. I still have a couple of Bartók's string quartets to listen to, but here's next week's listing. 

Stravinsky, plus composers born 1884-1889. Enjoy!

*Level 1*
*Stravinsky, Igor*: *Rite of Spring* esp. Part One, Adoration of the Earth

*Level 2*
Stravinsky, Igor: *L'Oiseau de Feu*
Stravinsky, Igor: Petrushka

*Level 3*
*Villa-Lobos, Heitor*: Bachianas Brasileiras esp No. 5 for Soprano and 8 Cellos, Aria. Cantilena

*Level 4*
Stravinsky, Igor: Symphony of Psalms
Stravinsky, Igor: L'Histoire du Soldat
Stravinsky, Igor: Les Noces
Stravinsky, Igor: Œdipus Rex
Stravinsky, Igor: The Rake's Progress
Stravinsky, Igor: Pulcinella
Stravinsky, Igor: Symphony in C
Stravinsky, Igor: Agon
Stravinsky, Igor: Symphony in Three Movements
Stravinsky, Igor: Apollon Musagète "Apollo"

*Level 5*
Stravinsky, Igor: Violin Concerto in D
Stravinsky, Igor: Concerto in E-flat "Dumbarton Oaks"
Stravinsky, Igor: Symphony of Wind Instruments
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Guitar Concerto
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Chôros 8 "Dance Chôro"
Stravinsky, Igor: Mass
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Chôros 3 "Woodpecker"
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Chôros 2
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Chôros 7 "Settimino"
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Chôros 10
Stravinsky, Igor: Octet for Piano and Wind Instruments
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Chôros 1
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Chôros 9
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Chôros 5 "Alma Brasileira"
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Chôros 2, 4, 6, 11, 12
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Chôros Bis

*Level 6*
*Clarke, Rebecca*: Viola Sonata
Stravinsky, Igor: Requiem Canticles
*Griffes, Charles Tomlinson*: The Pleasure Dome of Kubla Khan
Griffes, Charles Tomlinson: Poem for Flute and Orchestra
Stravinsky, Igor: Concerto for Wind Instruments
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: String Quartet No. 6
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Five Preludes for Guitar esp. No. 1 in E Minor
Stravinsky, Igor: Orpheus
Stravinsky, Igor: Threni
Stravinsky, Igor: Canticum Sacrum
Pejačević, Dora: Symphony in F-sharp minor
*Toch, Ernst*: Symphony No. 3
Griffes, Charles Tomlinson: Piano Sonata
Stravinsky, Igor: Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra
Griffes, Charles Tomlinson: The White Peacock
Riegger, Wallingford: Symphony No. 3
*Price, Florence*: Symphony No. 1

*Level 7 *
*Atterberg, Kurt*: Cello Concerto
Stravinsky, Igor: Le Chant de Rossignol
Stravinsky, Igor: Jeu de Cartes
Stravinsky, Igor: Ebony Concerto
Stravinsky, Igor: Duo Concertant
Barrios, Augustin Pio: La Catedral
Dupré, Marcel: Symphonie-Passion
Atterberg, Kurt: Symphony No. 4 "Sinfonia Piccola"
Atterberg, Kurt: A Värmland Rhapsody
Stravinsky, Igor: Movements for Piano and Orchestra
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Rudepoema
Stravinsky, Igor: Concerto for Strings in D Major
Stravinsky, Igor: Perséphone
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Cello Concerto No. 2
Toch, Ernst: Symphony (or Concerto) No. 2 for Piano and Orchestra
Stravinsky, Igor: Feu d'Artifice

Honourable mentions:
Cassel, Mana-Zucca: Prelude Op. 73
Farrar, Ernest: Brittany Op. 21
Schoeck, Othmar: Sommernacht for String Orchestra
Boulanger, Nadia: 3 Pieces for cello and piano esp. No. 1. Modere, D'un Matin de Printemps & Piano Pieces
Wand, Hart: Dallas Blues
Berlin, Irving: Alexander's Ragtime Band


----------



## Mandryka

Othmar Schoeck is interesting, though I can't recall Sommernacht. The thing that really impressed me was the Elegie (Mertens is the singer to seek out for this)

The Balanchine Agon is on youtube here

Igor Stravinsky: Agon - YouTube

Les Noces is quite interesting, I enjoyed the Covernt Garden production by Bronislava Nijinska, here

LES NOCES on Vimeo

And there is a video about the production too, worth seeing, but I can't find it online.

There's a particularly "imaginative" audio recording of Les Noces, by Dmitri Pokrovsky -- I thought it was wonderful. It's split up into little bits on youtube unfortunately, here's one

Les Noces, First Tableau - YouTube


For Rossignol I remember enjoying this film

Igor Stravinsky - Le Rossignol [2005] [DVD]: Amazon.co.uk: Natalie Dessay, Laurent Naouri, Albert Schagidullin, Vsevolod Grivnov, Violeta Urmana, Maxime Mikhailov, Marie McLaughlin, James Conlon (conductor), Christian Chaudet, Natalie Dessay, Laurent Naouri: DVD & Blu-ray


----------



## Chilham

Late on the draw this week. A dose of Covid put a crimp in my plans. You spend the best part of three years being ultra-careful and then out of the blue you get hit. Fortunately, my symptoms are mild.

I still have some listening to return to, and other than the very top recommendations, I can't say it was an especially enjoyable week. Never mind, here comes Sergei. Composers born 1890-91. Go!

*Level 1*
*Prokofiev, Sergei*: Romeo and Juliet esp. Montagues and Capulets, Dance of the Knights

*Level 2*
Prokofiev, Sergei: *Symphony No. 1 "Classical"*
Prokofiev, Sergei: Symphony No. 5

*Level 3*
Prokofiev, Sergei: Piano Concerto No. 3
Prokofiev, Sergei: Peter and The Wolf

*Level 4*
Prokofiev, Sergei: Lieutenant Kije Symphonic Suite
Prokofiev, Sergei: Violin Concerto No. 1
Prokofiev, Sergei: Violin Concerto No. 2
Prokofiev, Sergei: War and Peace

*Level 5*
Prokofiev, Sergei: Piano Sonata No. 7
*Martinů, Bohuslav*: Symphony No. 6 "Fantasisies Symphoniques"
Prokofiev, Sergei: Love for Three Oranges
Martinů, Bohuslav: Double Concerto for Two String Orchestras, Piano and Timpani
Prokofiev, Sergei: Piano Concerto No. 1
Prokofiev, Sergei: Piano Sonata No. 8
Prokofiev, Sergei: Symphony No. 6
*Martin, Frank*: Mass for Double Choir
Prokofiev, Sergei: Piano Concerto No. 2
Prokofiev, Sergei: Scythian Suite
Prokofiev, Sergei: Piano Concerto No. 5
*Ibert, Jacques*: Divertissement
Martin, Frank: Petite Symphonie Concertante

*Level 6*
Prokoviev, Sergei: Visions Fugitives
Prokofiev, Sergei: Symphony-Concerto for Cello and Orchestra
Ibert, Jacques: Escales
Martinů, Bohuslav: Symphony No. 4
Prokoviev, Sergei: Violin Sonata No. 2
Martinů, Bohuslav Symphony No. 3
Martinů, Bohuslav: Piano Concerto No. 3
Prokofiev, Sergei: Symphony No. 7
Prokofiev, Sergei: Piano Sonata No. 6
Martinů, Bohuslav: Symphony No. 1
Prokofiev, Sergei: Cinderella
Prokofiev, Sergei: String Quartet No. 2 "Kabardinian"
Prokofiev, Sergei: Symphony No. 3
Prokofiev, Sergei: Piano Sonata No. 4
Martin, Frank: Concerto for Seven Wind Instruments
Martinů, Bohuslav: The Epic of Gilgamesh
Martinů, Bohuslav: Symphony No. 2
Prokoviev, Sergei: Piano Sonata No. 3
Prokofiev, Sergei: Piano Sonata No. 2
Prokofiev, Sergei: String Quartet No. 1
Ibert, Jacques: Flute Concerto
Prokoviev, Sergei: Piano Sonata No. 1
Martinů, Bohuslav: Memorial to Lidice

*Level 7*
Martinů, Bohuslav: Field Mass
*Bliss, Arthur*: Colour Symphony
Bliss, Arthur: Oboe Quintet
Prokoviev, Sergei: Cello Sonata
Prokoviev, Sergei: The Fiery Angel
Prokoviev, Sergei: Violin Sonata No. 1
Bliss, Arthur: Concerto for Cello and Orchestra
Prokoviev, Sergei: Sonata for Solo Violin (Unison Violins)
Martinů, Bohuslav: La Revue de Cuisine
Prokoviev, Sergei: Piano Sonata No. 5 in C major (original version), Op. 38
Prokoviev, Sergei: Piano Sonata No. 5 in C major (revised version), Op. 135
Prokoviev, Sergei: Piano Concerto No. 4
Prokoviev, Sergei: Piano Sonata No. 9
Ibert, Jacques: Concertino da Camera for Alto Saxophone and Orchestra
Bliss, Arthur: Meditations on a Theme by John Blow
Martinů, Bohuslav: Opening of the Wells
Bliss, Arthur: Checkmate
Martinů, Bohuslav: Concerto for Two Pianos

Honourable mentions:
Gurney, Ivor: Five Elizabethan Songs "Sleep"


----------



## new but obsessed

Been there! Feel better and recover rapidly!


----------



## Mandryka

I like Visions Fugitives, the 9th piano sonata and Cinderella. War and Peace is OK. I saw The Fiery Angel and thought it was not very interesting. 


Of the rest, obviously the piano sonatas 6,7 and 8 are highly regarded, as is Romeo and Juliette -- rightly so I think.


The Epic of Gilgamesh may be worth a try.


----------



## Chilham

I enjoyed Prokofiev this week, rarely a low-point, and some of the Martinů works. 

On to composers born 1892-1895 including all of "Les Six".

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
*Orff, Carl*: Carmina Burana esp. O Fortuna

*Level 3*
*Hindemith, Paul*: Mathis der Maler

*Level 4*
*Milhaud, Darius*: Le Creation du Monde
*Honegger, Arthur*: Le Roi David
Hindemith, Paul: Symphonic Metamorphoses of Themes by Carl Maria von Weber
*Poulenc, Francis*: Concerto in G Minor for Organ, Strings & Timpani
Poulenc, Francis: Gloria
Poulenc, Francis: Concerto for Two Pianos

*Level 5*
Honegger, Arthur: Pacific 231
Poulenc, Francis: Les Chemins de l'Amour
Honegger, Arthur: Symphony No. 3 "Liturgique"
Hindemith, Paul: Ludus Tonalis
Poulenc, Francis: Dialogues des Carmelites
Milhaud, Darius: Le Boeuf Sur le Toit
Honegger, Arthur: Symphony No. 2
Poulenc, Francis: Tel Jour, Telle Nuit
*Grofé, Ferdinand Rudolph von*: Grand Canyon Suite
Honegger, Arthur: Symphony No. 4 "Deliciae Basiliensis"
Hindemith, Paul: Kleine Kammermusik
Poulenc, Francis: Concert Champêtre
Poulenc, Francis: Flute Sonata
Still, William Grant: Symphony No. 1 "Afro-American"
Milhaud, Darius: Scaramouche Suite 3. Brazileira (Mouvement de samba)
Poulenc, Francis: Les Biches

*Level 6*
Poulenc, Francis: Sextet for Piano and Wind Quintet
Poulenc, Francis: Clarinet Sonata
Honegger, Arthur: Symphony No. 5 "Di Tre Re"
Milhaud, Darius: Sausades do Brasil
Piston, Walter: The Incredible Flutist
Hindemith, Paul: When Lilacs Last in the Courtyard Bloom'd
Hindemith, Paul: Dle Harmonie der Welt
Hindemith, Paul: Trauermusik
Hindemith, Paul: Nobilissima Visione
Hindemith, Paul: String Quartet No. 4
Howells, Herbert: Hymnus Paradisi
Howells, Herbert: Requiem
*Piston, Walter*: Symphony No. 2
Hindemith, Paul: Violin Concerto
Poulenc, Francis: Figure Humaine
Hindemith, Paul: Symphony in E-flat
Poulenc, Francis: Mélancolie
Hindemith, Paul: Viola Sonata in F
Milhaud, Darius: String Quartet No. 1
Orff, Carl: Trionfo di Afrodite
Orff, Carl: Music for Children

*Level 7*
Poulenc, Francis: Trio for Oboe, Basoon and Piano
*Mompou, Federico*: Música Callada Book 1 esp. 3. Placide
Hindemith, Paul: Kammermusik No. 1 Op. 24
Hindemith, Paul: Konzertmusik
Poulenc, Francis: Stabat Mater
Castelnuovo-Tedesco, Mario: Guitar Concerto No. 1
Hindemith, Paul: Der Schwanendreher
Piston, Walter: Symphony No. 6
Poulenc, Francis: Aubade
Tailleferre, Germaine: Concertino for Harp and Orchestra
Hindemith, Paul: Sonata for Trumpet and Piano (1939)
Hindemith, Paul: Symphonia Serena
Hindemith, Paul: Sonata for Clarinet and Piano (1939)
Boulanger, Lili: Claririères dans le Ciel
Poulenc, Francis: Cello Sonata esp. ii. Cavatine
Castelnuovo-Tedesco, Mario: Les Guitares Bien Tempérées
Milhaud, Darius: Suite Française
Hindemith, Paul: Sonata for Oboe and Piano (1938)
Orff, Carl: Catulli Carmina
Orff, Carl: De Temporum Fine Comoedia
Milhaud, Darius: Sonata for flute, oboe, clarinet, and piano
Poulenc, Francis: Violin Sonata in D Major
Hindemith, Paul: String Quartet No. 3
Hindemith, Paul: String Quartet No. 5
Poulenc, Francis: La Voix Humaine

Honourable mentions:
Moore, Douglas: The Ballad of Baby Doe
Durey, Louis: Le Printemps au Fond de la Mer
Rosenberg, Hilding: Symphony No. 6, Violin Concerto No. 2
Johnson, James: Harlem Symphony
*Auric, Georges*: Les Facheux, Les Matelots


----------



## Mandryka

The big thing to explore here, IMO, is Honegger’s Symphonie Liturgique. It is a coruscating musical response to the apocalypse of the war. 


Dialogue of the Carmelites is a great thing! A fabulous opera in the theatre and in video. 

Hindemith is rewarding always, I’d like to know his chamber music better myself - whatever I’ve heard has been appealing.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> The big thing to explore here, IMO, is Honegger’s Symphonie Liturgique. It is a coruscating musical response to the apocalypse of the war.
> ...
> Hindemith is rewarding always, I’d like to know his chamber music better myself - whatever I’ve heard has been appealing.


Honegger's Symphonie Liturgique and Hindemith's Mathis der Maler are certainly the highlights so far. Very good listening.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Chilham said:


> Bartók has rocketed into my list of top-10 composers


Tell us some things about his music.


----------



## Chilham

hammeredklavier said:


> Tell us some things about his music.


All I can tell you is how much I enjoyed listening to many of the works. I rated them:

1 "Hors concours", "Joyful": No works
2 "Essential", Happiness": Concerto for Orchestra, Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, Violin Concerto No. 2, String Quartet No. 6, Piano Concerto No. 2, Sonata for Solo Violin, Microkosmos
3 "Important", "Pleasure": Piano Concerto No. 3, Romanian Folk Dances, Bluebeard's Castle, Dance Suite, String Quartet No. 1, String Quartet No. 2, Allegro Barbaro
4 "Good to have", "Okay": String Quartet No. 4, String Quartet No. 5, Divertimento for Strings, String Quartet No. 3, Piano Concerto No. 1
5 "Curate's Egg", "Discomfort": Sonata for Two Pianos
6 "Not required", "Pain": No works
7 "Kill it with fire", "Misery": No works

Bartók's 22 works that I listened to averaged "2.955" on my listening scoring system putting him squarely in my top-ten composers.


----------



## new but obsessed

Did not dive deep into Bartok. But what I did hear I liked very much. Especially that String Quartet 4. 

As an aside, I've gotta say that I've really enjoyed this "journey" so far. All this exposure to all the major names from throughout the ages has been paying off IRL. As have the recommendations for recordings. I was very fortunate this evening to catch an intimate performance of some of Monteverdi's sacred music by Vox Luminis --- a composer and a group of musicians that I first came across on this thread. And boy was that show a blast! Had I never stumbled onto this thread, I probably wouldn't have known to attend this show! (Indeed, none of my friends came, nor know what they were missing). And so, muchas gracias! Looking forward to a few more months of this!


----------



## Chilham

I enjoyed much of this week's listening, without being overwhelmed with pleasure or joy. Hindemith's Mathis der Maler is excellent, and Honegger's symphonies are very listenable.

On to new composers. We've reached composers born 1896-1902. The week has quite an American bias as it includes Gershwin, Copland, Korngold, Harris, Hanson and others. William Walton, not a composer I'm very familiar with, provides some English interest, Duruflé French, and Rodrigo and Revueltas some "Latin" flavour.

*Level 1*
*Gershwin, George*: *Rhapsody in Blue*

*Level 2*
*Copland, Aaron*: *Appalachian Spring esp. I. Very Slowly*
Gershwin, George: An American in Paris
Gershwin, George: *Porgy and Bess*

*Level 3*
Copland, Aaron: *Fanfare for the Common Man*
Gershwin, George: Piano Concerto in F
Copland, Aaron: Clarinet Concerto

*Level 4*
*Rodrigo, Joachím*: *Concierto de Aranjuez*
*Walton, Sir William*: Symphony No. 1
Walton, Sir William: Belshazzar's Feast
Copland, Aaron: Symphony No. 3
Walton, Sir William: Viola Concerto
Copland, Aaron: *Rodeo esp. "Hoe Down"*
Copland, Aaron: *Billy the Kid*
*Weill, Kurt*: Die Dreigroschenoper
Copland, Aaron: El Salón México
Copland, Aaron: Piano Variations

*Level 5*
*Duruflé, Maurice*: Requiem
*Korngold, Erich*: Violin Concerto in D major Op. 35 esp. II. Romanze
Walton, Sir William: Façade
Walton, Sir William: Violin Concerto
Rodrigo, Joachím: Fantasia Para un Gentilhombre
*Hanson, Howard*: Symphony No. 2 "Romantic"
Walton, Sir William: Cello Concerto
*Harris, Roy*: Symphony No. 3
Gershwin, George: Cuban Adventure
Copland, Aaron: Piano Concerto
Copland, Aaron: 12 Poems of Emily Dickinson

*Level 6*
Revueltas, Silvestre: Sensemayá
*Antheil, George*: Ballet Mechanique
Copland, Aaron: Lincoln Portrait
Korngold, Erich: Die Tote Stadt esp. Glück das mir Verlieb
Walton, Sir William: Symphony No. 2
Gershwin, George: Three Preludes
Hanson, Howard: Symphony No. 4 "Requiem"
*Thomson, Virgil*: Four Saints in Three Acts
Hanson, Howard: Symphony No. 5 "Sinfonia Sacra"
Walton, Sir William: Partita for Orchestra
*Ullmann, Viktor*: Der Kaiser von Atlantis
*Chávez, Carlos*: Symphony No. 6
*Krenek, Ernst*: Jonny Spielt auf
Walton, Sir William: Spitfire Prelude and Fugue
*Sessions, Roger*: The Black Maskers
*Cowell, Henry*: Banshee
Hanson, Howard: Symphony No. 3
Copland, Aaron: Old American Songbook
Hanson, Howard: The Lament for Beowulf
Hanson, Howard: Symphony No. 1
*Eisler, Hanns*: Deutsche Symfonie
Gershwin, George: Second Rhapsody for Piano and Orchestra
Duruflé, Maurice: Organ Works Op. 2
Gershwin, George: I Got Rhythm
Weill, Kurt: Violin Concerto

*Level 7*
*Seeger, Ruth*: String Quartet
*Partch, Harry*: Delusion of the Fury: a Ritual of Dream and Delusion
Rodrigo, Joachím: Concierto Madrigal for 2 Guitars and Orchestra
Chávez, Carlos: Symphony No. 2 "Sinfonía India"
Copland, Aaron: Danzón Cubano
Copland, Aaron: Quiet City
Weill, Kurt: Die Sieben Todsünden "The Seven Deadly Sins"
Krenek, Ernst: Lamentations
Antheil, George: A Jazz Symphony
Weill, Kurt: Berliner Requiem
*McPhee, Colin*: Tabuh-Tabuhan
Walton, Sir William: Variations on a Theme by Hindemith
Duruflé, Maurice: Quatre Motets sur des Thémes Grégoriens esp. Ubi caritas et amor
Korngold, Erich: Symphony in F-sharp
Hanson, Howard: Elegy in Memory of My Friend Serge Koussevitsky
Eisler, Hanns: Hollywood Liederbuch
Sessions, Roger: String Quartet No. 2
Dawson, William L: Negro Folk Symphony esp. 3. "O, Le' Me Shine"
Walton, Sir William: String Quartet No. 2
Ullmann, Viktor: String Quartet No. 3
Copland, Aaron: The Tender Land
Gershwin, George: Lullaby for String Quartet
Harris, Roy: Symphony No. 11
Sessions, Roger: Montezuma
Ullmann, Viktor: Piano Sonata No. 7
Ullmann, Viktor: String Quartet No. 2

Honourable mentions:
*Ellington, Duke*: Black, Brown, and Beige esp. 1. Introduction
Luening, Otto: Low Speed
Rubbra, Edmund: Symphony No. 4
Gerhard, Roberto: String Quartets Symphony No. 1, Symphony No. 3
Ben-Haim, Paul: The Sweet Psalmist of Israel
Porter, Quincy: Concerto Concertanta, String Quartet No. 4, String Quartet No. 7, String Quartet No. 8, Symphony No. 2, Viola Concerto
*Tcherepnin, Alexander*: Chamber Concerto, Serenade, Symphony No. 1, Symphony No. 4
Mayerl, Billy: Autumn Crocus


----------



## Mandryka

What you're now starting to see is how diverse and varied music is becoming. There is way to much for anyone to really get a good feel for in a week. For me the obvious things which stand out are Copland's piano variations and the Partch -- there's been a recent release on Wergo of _Delusion of the Fury_ which is very good in every way. The Duruflé is very well appreciated -- but many of the other pieces here are important in their niche.


----------



## pianozach

I M.D.d and was in a production of *Die Dreigroschenoper* (well, actually, the English version *"The Threepenny Opera"*). It played quite well, and the music is wicked good.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Howard Hanson described his Second Symphony as “a work young in spirit, Romantic in temperament, and simple and direct in expression.” Roger Sessions used to say that music, first and above all, must have a _face. _This music has one and it remains my favorite symphony by an American composer.


----------



## Mandryka

.


----------



## Chilham

I'm anticipating an internet access challenge from today and over the weekend as I'll be travelling, so posting up next week's listing early. Before I do, I have to say that this week I've discovered a new found admiration and appreciation for Copland. I've perhaps been a little dismissive of his work previously. Except for the, to my ears, disastrous second movement of his Piano Concerto, I very much enjoyed listening to the listed works (I'll be down to Hanson's 5th by this evening). Rodrigo is always a joy. Most Gershwin too. Harris' Symphony No.3 sat well with me, as did the Walton Concertos.

On, next week, to the last of the "Great" composers. I'm using "Great" as a personal judgement call based on the volume of works recommended. So far on the journey, eleven composers have had at least twenty-two works with at least three recommendations. The twelfth and final composer to reach that level is Shostakovich. I've previously only listened to a few of the Barshai/WDR Symphony recordings, but have recently invested in the Nelsons/Boston Symphony and Emerson String Quartet recordings. Really looking forward to the week. Composers born 1903 to 1906. If you're following along, enjoy!

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2 *
*Shostakovich, Dmitri*: *Symphony No. 5*
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 10

*Level 3*
Shostakovich, Dmitri: *String Quartet No. 8*
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District
*Khachaturian, Aram*: Spartacus - Ballet Suite
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 7 "Lenningrad"
Shostakovich, Dmitri: *Piano Concerto No. 2 esp. II. Andante*

*Level 4*
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 8
Khachaturian, Aram: Gayaneh
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Violin Concerto No. 1
*Tippett, Michael*: A Child of Our Time
Shostakovich, Dimitri: Cello Concerto No. 1
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 15

*Level 5*
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Quintet in G Minor for Piano and Strings
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 9
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No.11 "The Year 1905"
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Piano Concerto No.1
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 1
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 6
Tippett, Michael: Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli
Tippett, Michael: Concerto for Double String Orchestra
Shostakovich, Dmitri: 24 Preludes & Fugues
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 13 "Babi Yar"
Shostakovich, Dmitri: *Piano Trio No. 2*
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 14
Khachaturian, Aram: Violin Concerto
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 4
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Cello Concerto No. 2
Khachaturian, Aram: Piano Concerto
Shostakovich, Dmitri: String Quartet No. 9
*Dallapiccola, Luigi*: Il Prigioniero
Tippett, Michael: King Priam

*Level 6*
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Cello Sonata in D minor
*Hartmann, Karl Amadeus*: Concerto Funebre
Shostakovich, Dmitri: String Quartet No. 10
Shostakovich, Dmitri: String Quartet No. 11
Tippett, Michael: The Midsummer Marriage
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Suite for Variety Orchestra (Jazz Suite No. 2) Waltz No. 2
Tippett, Michael: Symphony No. 3
Shostakovich, Dmitri: String Quartet No. 15
Shostakovich, Dimitri: Symphony No. 12 "The Year 1917"
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Sonata for Violin and Piano
Khachaturian, Aram: Symphony No. 2
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Violin Concerto No. 2
*Kabalevsky, Dmitri*: The Comedians
Creston, Paul: Symphony No. 2

*Level 7*
Khachaturian, Aram: Masquerade esp. Waltz
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Piano Concerto No. 2
Kabalevsky, Dmitri: Cello Concerto No. 1
*Tubin, Eduard*: Symphony No. 4 "Sinfonia Lirica"
*Scelsi, Giacinto*: Quattro Pezzi su Una Nota Sola
Shostakovich, Dmitri: *String Quartet No. 2*
Shostakovich, Dmitri: The Execution of Stepan Razin
Scelsi, Giacinto: Anahit
Tippett, Michael: Triple Concerto for Violin, Viola and Cello
Jolivet, André: Chant de Linos
Scelsi, Giacinto: Ohoi
*Creston, Paul*: Symphony No. 3
Hartmann, Karl Amadeus: Symphony No. 8
Kabalevsky, Dmitri: Piano Sonata No. 2
Kabalevsky, Dmitri: Symphony No. 2
Kabalevsky, Dmitri: Symphony No. 4
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Piano Sonata No. 2
Hartmann, Karl Amadeus: Symphony No. 4
Hartmann, Karl Amadeus: Symphony No. 3
Scelsi, Giacinto: String Quartet No. 1
Tippett, Michael: Concerto for Orchestra
Blacher, Boris: Orchestra Variations on a Theme by Paganini
Shostakovich, Dmitri: The Golden Age

Honourable mentions:
Rawthorne, Alan: Second Piano Concerto
Blitzstein. Marc: The Cradle Will Rock
Lambert, Constance: The Rio Grande
Poston, Elizabeth: An English Day-Book esp. 9. Evening Song, Jesus Christ the Apple Tree
Sowande, Fela: African Suite
Lutyens, Elisabeth: Chamber Concerto No. 1, O Saisons, O Chateaux!, Quincunx, De Amore, Infidelio
Williams, Grace, Hiraeth


----------



## Mandryka

How interesting to see bold and exciting music like Scelsi's Anahit cheek by jowl with Shostakovich's preludes and fugues!

I've got a soft spot for King Priam -- Achilles' war cry, Patroclus in the tent playing guitar etc. Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk is the most bleak and depressing opera ever. The spirituals in A Child of Our Time are pleasant. The Midsummer Marriage is very now, because there's just been a new release. Shostakovich Symphony14 and Quartet 15 are worth a listen.

But really, Anahit stands head and shoulders above all the rest, no doubt about it.


----------



## justekaia

Mandryka said:


> What you're now starting to see is how diverse and varied music is becoming. There is way to much for anyone to really get a good feel for in a week. For me the obvious things which stand out are Copland's piano variations and the Partch -- there's been a recent release on Wergo of _Delusion of the Fury_ which is very good in every way. The Duruflé is very well appreciated -- but many of the other pieces here are important in their niche.


I very much second Mandryka in his like of Copland's piano variations, Durufle's Requiem is a masterpiece and Partch's Delusion of Fury (possibly his best work) is an excellent and innovative piece.


----------



## justekaia

Chilham said:


> I'm anticipating an internet access challenge from today and over the weekend as I'll be travelling, so posting up next week's listing early. Before I do, I have to say that this week I've discovered a new found admiration and appreciation for Copland. I've perhaps been a little dismissive of his work previously. Except for the, to my ears, disastrous second movement of his Piano Concerto, I very much enjoyed listening to the listed works (I'll be down to Hanson's 5th by this evening). Rodrigo is always a joy. Most Gershwin too. Harris' Symphony No.3 sat well with me, as did the Walton Concertos.
> 
> On, next week, to the last of the "Great" composers. I'm using "Great" as a personal judgement call based on the volume of works recommended. So far on the journey, eleven composers have had at least twenty-two works with at least three recommendations. The twelfth and final composer to reach that level is Shostakovich. I've previously only listened to a few of the Barshai/WDR Symphony recordings, but have recently invested in the Nelsons/Boston Symphony and Emerson String Quartet recordings. Really looking forward to the week. Composers born 1903 to 1906. If you're following along, enjoy!
> 
> *Level 1*
> No works
> 
> *Level 2 *
> *Shostakovich, Dmitri*: *Symphony No. 5*
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 10
> 
> *Level 3*
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: *String Quartet No. 8*
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District
> *Khachaturian, Aram*: Spartacus - Ballet Suite
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 7 "Lenningrad"
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: *Piano Concerto No. 2 esp. II. Andante*
> 
> *Level 4*
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 8
> Khachaturian, Aram: Gayaneh
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Violin Concerto No. 1
> *Tippett, Michael*: A Child of Our Time
> Shostakovich, Dimitri: Cello Concerto No. 1
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 15
> 
> *Level 5*
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Quintet in G Minor for Piano and Strings
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 9
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No.11 "The Year 1905"
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Piano Concerto No.1
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 1
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 6
> Tippett, Michael: Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli
> Tippett, Michael: Concerto for Double String Orchestra
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: 24 Preludes & Fugues
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 13 "Babi Yar"
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: *Piano Trio No. 2*
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 14
> Khachaturian, Aram: Violin Concerto
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 4
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Cello Concerto No. 2
> Khachaturian, Aram: Piano Concerto
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: String Quartet No. 9
> *Dallapiccola, Luigi*: Il Prigioniero
> Tippett, Michael: King Priam
> 
> *Level 6*
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Cello Sonata in D minor
> *Hartmann, Karl Amadeus*: Concerto Funebre
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: String Quartet No. 10
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: String Quartet No. 11
> Tippett, Michael: The Midsummer Marriage
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Suite for Variety Orchestra (Jazz Suite No. 2) Waltz No. 2
> Tippett, Michael: Symphony No. 3
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: String Quartet No. 15
> Shostakovich, Dimitri: Symphony No. 12 "The Year 1917"
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Sonata for Violin and Piano
> Khachaturian, Aram: Symphony No. 2
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Violin Concerto No. 2
> *Kabalevsky, Dmitri*: The Comedians
> Creston, Paul: Symphony No. 2
> 
> *Level 7*
> Khachaturian, Aram: Masquerade esp. Waltz
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Piano Concerto No. 2
> Kabalevsky, Dmitri: Cello Concerto No. 1
> *Tubin, Eduard*: Symphony No. 4 "Sinfonia Lirica"
> *Scelsi, Giacinto*: Quattro Pezzi su Una Nota Sola
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: *String Quartet No. 2*
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: The Execution of Stepan Razin
> Scelsi, Giacinto: Anahit
> Tippett, Michael: Triple Concerto for Violin, Viola and Cello
> Jolivet, André: Chant de Linos
> Scelsi, Giacinto: Ohoi
> *Creston, Paul*: Symphony No. 3
> Hartmann, Karl Amadeus: Symphony No. 8
> Kabalevsky, Dmitri: Piano Sonata No. 2
> Kabalevsky, Dmitri: Symphony No. 2
> Kabalevsky, Dmitri: Symphony No. 4
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: Piano Sonata No. 2
> Hartmann, Karl Amadeus: Symphony No. 4
> Hartmann, Karl Amadeus: Symphony No. 3
> Scelsi, Giacinto: String Quartet No. 1
> Tippett, Michael: Concerto for Orchestra
> Blacher, Boris: Orchestra Variations on a Theme by Paganini
> Shostakovich, Dmitri: The Golden Age
> 
> Honourable mentions:
> Rawthorne, Alan: Second Piano Concerto
> Blitzstein. Marc: The Cradle Will Rock
> Lambert, Constance: The Rio Grande
> Poston, Elizabeth: An English Day-Book esp. 9. Evening Song, Jesus Christ the Apple Tree
> Sowande, Fela: African Suite
> Lutyens, Elisabeth: Chamber Concerto No. 1, O Saisons, O Chateaux!, Quincunx, De Amore, Infidelio
> Williams, Grace, Hiraeth


Wow, Your list is full of my favourite music.I love Hartmann, The Shosta pieces and i am also a great admirer of Khachaturian especially Masquerade and Spartacus. Scelsi is in my top ten composers of all times and i would like to see more pieces (like SQ 4 and 5, Konx-Om-Pax, Uaxuctum, Xnoybis for violin).


----------



## new but obsessed

Just finished up the Shostakovich Symphony 7. My favorite so far this week!

As for last week, as a long-time fan of American music (outside of the Classical realm, especially), Gershwin and Copland really hit a soft spot for me. I guess their music is so tied up in modern American culture (Westerns, movies, musicals, etc) that it's easy to love if you've lived here a long time. 

I didn't listen to Threepenny Opera this time around. But in my short foray into Duolingo German during Covid lockdowns, I got really into Mack the Knife and Pirate Jenny. Such awesome tunes. 

I also picked up on the Hindemith suggestions and really really loved Mathis der Maler. And similarly, ventured down to listen to some Korngold. That violin concerto is tremendous! 

Good stuff all around so far in the early 20th century!


----------



## Chilham

This is outstanding:









Shostakovich: 24 Preludes and Fugues
Igor Levit


----------



## Chilham

Loved, loved, loved Shostakovich, well down into Level 5. Had a bit of a bumpy ride with the last couple of symphonies but maybe that was me. Busy day today on business admin', so wasn't concentrating.

Whilst I have a good internet connection, here's next week's listing. Composers born 1907 to 1910 including Barber, Messiaen, Carter, Schuman and Bacewicz. All pretty new to me. 

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
*Barber, Samuel*: *String Quartet, op. 11 including the Adagio for Strings, op. 11a*

*Level 3*
*Messiaen, Olivier*: *Quatuor pour la fin du Temps*
Messiaen, Olivier: Turangalîla-Symphonie

*Level 4*
Barber, Samuel: Knoxville, Summer of 1915
Barber, Samuel: Violin Concerto esp. II. Andante
Messiaen, Olivier: Vingt Regards sur l'Enfant Jesus
*Carter, Elliott*: String Quartet No. 2

*Level 5*
Barber, Samuel: Piano Sonata
Barber, Samuel: Piano Concerto
Carter, Elliott: Concerto for Orchestra
Carter, Elliott: A Symphony of Three Orchestras
Barber, Samuel: Symphony No. 1 in One Movement
Carter, Elliott: *String Quartet No. 1*
Messiaen, Olivier: La Nativité du Seigneur
*Schuman, William*: New England Triptych
Carter, Elliott: Fourth String Quartet
*Bacewicz, Grażyna*: Music for Strings, Trumpets and Percussion

*Level 6*
Barber, Samuel: First Essay for Orchestra
Barber, Samuel: Second Essay for Orchestra
Carter, Elliott: *String Quartet No. 3*
Schuman, William: Symphony No. 3
Bacewicz, Grażyna: Piano Quintet No. 2
Carter, Elliott: Cello Sonata
Barber, Samuel: Medea
Bacewicz, Grażyna: Piano Sonata No. 2
Bacewicz, Grażyna: Concerto for Strings
Barber, Samuel: Cello Concerto
Carter, Elliott: Symphonia: Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei
Messiaen, Olivier: Catalogue d'Oiseaux
Messiaen, Olivier: Chronochromie
Carter, Elliott: Double Concerto
Messiaen, Olivier: Saint François d’Assise
Bacewicz, Grażyna: *String Quartet No. 4*
Carter, Elliott: Sonata for Flute, Cello, Oboe and Harpsichord
Messiaen, Olivier: Harawi
Schuman, William: Symphony No. 5 "Symphony for Strings"
Carter, Elliott: Piano Concerto
Barber, Samuel: Sure on This Shining Night
Barber, Samuel: Vanessa
Messiaen, Olivier: Visions de l"Amen
Schaeffer, Pierre & Henry, Pierre: Symphonie Pour un Homme Seul
Schuman, William: A Song of Orpheus

*Level 7 *
Messiaen, Olivier: Des Canyons aux Étoiles
Messiaen, Olivier: Eclairs sur l'Au-Delà
Messiaen, Olivier: L'Ascension
Carter, Elliott: Variations for Orchestra
Barber, Samuel: Overture to the School for Scandal
Barber, Samuel: Music for a Scene from Shelley
Messiaen, Olivier: Et Exspecto Resttectionem Mortuorum
Messiaen, Olivier: Trois Petits Liturgies de la Présence Divine
Schuman, William: Violin Concerto
Messiaen, Olivier: Visions de l'Amen
Barber, Samuel: Agnus Dei
Messiaen, Olivier: Oiseaux Exotiqes
Messiaen, Olivier: Réveil des Oiseaux
Messiaen, Olivier: Meditations sur le Mystère de la Sainte Trinité
*Holmboe, Vagn*: Symphony No. 8 "Sinfonia Boreale"
Barber, Samuel: Prayers of Kierkegaard
Barber, Samuel: Third Essay for Orchestra
Messiaen, Olivier: Sept Haikai
*Saygun, Ahmed*: Yunus Emre
*Maconchy, Elizabeth*: Symphonia for Double String Orchestra
Messiaen, Olivier: Les Offrandres Oubliées
Messiaen, Olivier: O `Sacrum Convivium
Schuman, William: Undertow

Honourable mentions:
Daetwyler, Jean: Sonata for Violin and Piano
Langlais, Jean: Messe Solonnelle
Holst, Imogen: Mass in A Minor esp. 4. Sanctus - Benedictus
Siegmeister, Elie: Western Suite


----------



## new but obsessed

Very excited to jump into some Messiaen. His is a name I've long been curious about since my teenage years when I was getting into my first musical discoveries. At the time, Radiohead was ascendant, and I would often come across factoids about Johnny Greenwood's interest in Messiaen in particular. 

As an aside. I was out at the cinema last night to catch the new-ish Korean film, Decision to Leave. And it's the second film in recent weeks that's used Mahler's 5th as a plot point in the film (including a shot of a spinning LP with the gold DG label)*. Of course, the other recent film was Tár, which tried to jam in every reference to classical music culture that it could -- including all the Bernstein DG Mahler recordings. 

As a new-to-the-party fan of Mahler, again thanks to this journey, it's funny to see it "out in the wild" in contemporary culture.

* The plot point is that, in this detective drama, the victim who fell to his death while rock climbing would time his climbs of this specific rock to Mahler's 5th. Finishing his ascent in the 4th movement and catching the early morning vista listening to the 5th movement. From that point on in the film, Mahler plays quite frequently, quite softly and ominously in the background. Pretty funny. Maybe because Korea is notably a country that values classical music education in their youth, that reference is more salient to them. No way any of my millennial film friends would pick up on it!


----------



## Chilham

I very much enjoyed Samuel Barber this week. Not the biggest fan of his piano works but the rest sits very well with me. I enjoyed Bacewicz and Schuman too. Messiaen and Carter were more of a 'Curate's egg' for me, good in parts. Will need to revisit.

On to next week and composers born 1911-1916. It's a week dominated by Benjamin Britten, but with enough variety to keep things interesting.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2 *
*Britten, Benjamin*: Peter Grimes

*Level 3*
Britten, Benjamin: War Requiem
Britten, Benjamin: Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra

*Level 4*
*Cage, John*: Sonatas and Interludes
Britten, Benjamin: Serenade for Tenor, Horn, and Strings
Britten, Benjamin: Sinfonia da Requiem
Britten, Benjamin: Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge
Britten, Benjamin: The Turn of the Screw
Britten, Benjamin: Billy Budd

*Level 5*
*Lutosławski, Witold*: Concerto for Orchestra
Britten, Benjamin: A Ceremony of Carols
Cage, John: 4'33"
Lutosławski, Witold: Symphony No. 3
*Nancarrow, Conlan*: Studies for Player Piano No. 6
*Hovhaness, Alan*: Symphony No. 2 "Mysterious Mountain"
Britten, Benjamin: A Simple Symphony
Lutosławski, Witold: Chain 2 for Violin
Britten, Benjamin: S*tring Quartet No. 2*

*Level 6*
*Ginastera, Alberto*: Piano Concerto No. 1
Cage, John: Music of Changes
Cage, John: Concerto for Prepared Piano and Chamber Orchestra
Ginastera, Alberto: Harp Concerto
Lutosławski, Witold: *String Quartet*
Britten, Benjamin: A Midsummer Night's Dream
Britten, Benjamin: Piano Concerto
Britten, Benjamin: Les Illuminations
Britten, Benjamin: Violin Concerto
Lutosławski, Witold: Jeux Vénitiens
*Gould, Morton*: Fall River Legend
*Dutilleux, Henri*: Tout un Monde Lointain
Cage, John: In a Landscape
Dutilleux, Henri: Symphony No. 1
Dutilleux, Henri: Symphony No. 2 "Le Double"
Lutosławski, Witold: Symphony No. 4
Lutosławski, Witold: Musique Funèbre
Britten, Benjamin: Death in Venice
Britten, Benjamin: Church Parables - The Curlew River
Ginastera, Alberto: Panambi
Cage, John: Atlas Eclipticalis
Cage, John: Roaratorio: An Irish Circus on Finnegans Wake
Britten, Benjamin: Prince of the Pagodas
Lutosławski, Witold: Chain 3 for Large Orchestra
Britten, Benjamin: Hymn to Saint Cecilia
*Babbitt, Milton*: Piano Concerto No. 2
Ginastera, Alberto: Tres Danzas Argentinas esp. 2. La Moza Donosa
Menotti, Gian-Carlo: The Consul
Britten, Benjamin: *String Quartet No. 3*

*Level 7*
Dutilleux, Henri: Ainsi la Nuit
Lutosławski, Witold: Piano Concerto
Dutilleux, Henri: L'Arbre des Songes
Britten, Benjamin: *Symphony for Cello and Orchestra*
Dutilleux, Henri: Piano Sonata esp. ii. Lent
Lutosławski, Witold: Mi-Parti
Lutosławski, Witold: Les Espace Du Sommeil
Britten, Benjamin: Suites for Cello
*Panufnik, Andrzej*: Symphony No. 3 "Sinfonia Sacre"
Ginastera, Alberto: Sonata for Guitar
Cage, John: Fontana Mix
Ginastera, Alberto: Pampeana No. 3
Hovhaness, Alan: Fantasy on Japanese Woodprints
Cage, John: The Wonderful Widow of Eighteen Songs
Dello Jolo, Norman: Meditations on Eccleslastes
*Persichetti, Vincent*: Symphony No. 6

Honourable mentions:
Ussachevsky, Vladimir: Sonic Contours
Franchetti, Arnold: Three Italian Masques
*Hermann, Bernard*: Symphony No. 1, The Red Shoes
*Françaix, Jean*: Concertino for Piano and Orchestra, L'Apsostrophe, Les Demoiselles de la Nuit, Malabar Jasmine "L'Horloge de Flore", Piano Concerto , Scuola di Ballo
Glanville-Hicks, Peggy: Three Gymnopédies for Strings, Oboe, Harp and Celesta
Guastavino, Carlos: Tres Romances Argentinos esp. 1. Las Niñas de Santa Fe
Montsalvatge, Xavier: Concierto Breve
Bonds, Margaret: Three Dream Portraits esp. ii. Dream Variation
Perle, George: Serenade No. 3, Six New Études
*Diamond, David*: String Quartet No. 3
Trimble, Joan: Phantasy Trio
Blomdahl, Karl-Birger: Aniara


----------



## Neo Romanza

Chilham said:


> All I can tell you is how much I enjoyed listening to many of the works. I rated them:
> 
> 1 "Hors concours", "Joyful": No works
> 2 "Essential", Happiness": Concerto for Orchestra, Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, Violin Concerto No. 2, String Quartet No. 6, Piano Concerto No. 2, Sonata for Solo Violin, Microkosmos
> 3 "Important", "Pleasure": Piano Concerto No. 3, Romanian Folk Dances, Bluebeard's Castle, Dance Suite, String Quartet No. 1, String Quartet No. 2, Allegro Barbaro
> 4 "Good to have", "Okay": String Quartet No. 4, String Quartet No. 5, Divertimento for Strings, String Quartet No. 3, Piano Concerto No. 1
> 5 "Curate's Egg", "Discomfort": Sonata for Two Pianos
> 6 "Not required", "Pain": No works
> 7 "Kill it with fire", "Misery": No works
> 
> Bartók's 22 works that I listened to averaged "2.955" on my listening scoring system putting him squarely in my top-ten composers.


Bartók is one of my 'Top 5' favorite composers. I have loved his music for over 15 years now. The orchestral works, concerti, chamber music (esp. the SQs, _Violin Sonatas_, _Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion_ and _Contrasts_), the solo piano works, many of the vocal works and his sole opera _Bluebeard's Castle_ would accompany me to that desert island. I remember someone from another forum talking about his music to another member and they mentioned it was difficult to get into because it lacked access points and that it doesn't give away it's secrets easily. Well, yes, but I would also say that these features are a part of the music's charm. It doesn't reveal itself too easily, but his later works reveal a more emotional character to them like certain moments of the _Concerto for Orchestra_ or the slow movement of _Piano Concerto No. 3_.


----------



## Chilham

Neo Romanza said:


> Bartók is one of my 'Top 5' favorite composers. I have loved his music for over 15 years now. The orchestral works, concerti, chamber music (esp. the SQs, _Violin Sonatas_, _Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion_ and _Contrasts_), the solo piano works, many of the vocal works and his sole opera _Bluebeard's Castle_ would accompany me to that desert island. I remember someone from another forum talking about his music to another member and they mentioned it was difficult to get into because it lacked access points and that it doesn't give away it's secrets easily. Well, yes, but I would also say that these features are a part of the music's charm. It doesn't reveal itself too easily, but his later works reveal a more emotional character to them like certain moments of the _Concerto for Orchestra_ or the slow movement of _Piano Concerto No. 3_.


"Discovering" Bartók has been one of the most satisfying revelations of my journey so far.


----------



## Mandryka

Once again the list is absurd, you can't get your head round this stuff in a week. Cage is without any doubt the most important figure mentioned.

There is lots of enjoyable classical music there. Thumbs up from me for Ussachevsky's Sonic Contours. All the Britten vocal music in the list is charming, Turn of the Screw arguably a masterpiece.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Once again the list is absurd, you can't get your head round this stuff in a week....


I'm sorry you feel that way. No one his saying you have to listen to it all. In fact, you'd be crazy to even try. It's there for information. Use it, don't use it, as you will.

I listen to the works on the top-five levels each week. Sometimes, like last week, I get down into the top pieces in level six. But then I have a lot of time to listen. I'll revisit next year and pick-off works in lower levels by composers I've enjoyed this year. Honestly, I'll probably continue to revisit every year.



Mandryka said:


> ... Cage is without any doubt the most important figure mentioned.
> 
> There is lots of enjoyable classical music there. Thumbs up from me for Ussachevsky's Sonic Contours. All the Britten vocal music in the list is charming, Turn of the Screw arguably a masterpiece.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Honestly, I'll probably continue to revisit every year.


I bet you a bottle of beer you won't.

In my opinion you would have an infinitely richer experience, and an infinitely less superficial one, if you found a bit of music you liked or a performer you enjoyed and then use that to follow your nose. As it is it's a bit like that chap in La Nausée who's reading the library in alphabetical order. It's like being a jack of all trades and a master of none.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> I bet you a bottle of beer you won't.


Oh, how little you know me.

Deal!


----------



## pianozach

Mandryka said:


> I bet you a bottle of beer you won't.
> 
> In my opinion you would have an infinitely richer experience, and an infinitely less superficial one, if you found a bit of music you liked or a performer you enjoyed and then use that to follow your nose. As it is it's a bit like that chap in La Nausée who's reading the library in alphabetical order. It's like being a jack of all trades and a master of none.


Y'know, I also am curating a thread here, which also has listening suggestions. 

A Beginner's Guide to Classical Music

I don't expect _ANYONE_ to listen to them all, or in the order offered. In fact, my intent is to promote listening, and use that as a springboard to explore further on your own. You like the *Quartet for the End of Time*? Great . . . find some more *Messiaen*, or more 20th Century quartets, string or otherwise. Explore music from the same time period. Find other chamber music. Happy travels!!

I find that both my path through Classical Music, and *Chilham*'s path to have some excellent methodology. One thing I especially like about *Chilham*'s is that it is organized, not only chronologically, but by rankings of expert recommendations. If you don't have a lot of time for listening, then you can listen to only the _"1st Tier"_ suggestions; if you have a bit more expendable time, include music from the _2nd Tier_. If you're retired, or convalescing, on vacation, or work somewhere where you can constantly listen to music, then dive even deeper. I don't think that there's anything "superficial" about exploring Classical Music in an organized way, using expert recommendations, as *Chilham* does. Nothing wrong with my scattershot method either. If you want, you can skip suggestions, or go off on your own listening tangents as frequently as you like.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> I bet you a bottle of beer you won't.
> 
> In my opinion you would have an infinitely richer experience, and an infinitely less superficial one, if you found a bit of music you liked or a performer you enjoyed and then use that to follow your nose. As it is it's a bit like that chap in La Nausée who's reading the library in alphabetical order. It's like being a jack of all trades and a master of none.


I'm sure that works well for you. It didn't work at all well for me for the first eighteen months I was listening, seriously, to classical music.

Keep calling it, "absurd", if that flicks your switch, but it's what works for me, for now, and I know for some others. I have a great appetite to appreciate, on what you would call a, "Superficial", level, the range of classical music out there. Once I've achieved that, perhaps then I can focus on areas that I know I enjoy, whilst continuing to expand my knowledge of all periods.

I'm not crazy, I'm just not you, and I'm surprised and disappointed that you feel so able to openly criticise the approach.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> I'm not crazy, I'm just not you, and I'm surprised and disappointed that you feel so able to openly criticise the approach.


I feel able to speak my mind.

You are not me, that goes without saying. However, I fear the approach will stifle your self, the you deep inside, because your listening is being governed by a procedure: a list and a set of rules. I believe that the experience of listening to music at its best is an active, creative and formative one, it forms you as a person. In this sense it is very different from, for example, the experience of completing a tax return or learning about solving first order differential equations. It is more like finding friends or lovers, or going on a long travel adventure with a backpack and an open mind.


----------



## Mandryka

pianozach said:


> Y'know, I also am curating a thread here, which also has listening suggestions.
> 
> A Beginner's Guide to Classical Music
> 
> I


I wasn't aware of this in fact, so I can't comment.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> I feel able to speak my mind.
> 
> You are not me, that goes without saying. However, I fear the approach will stifle your self, the you deep inside, because your listening is being governed by a procedure: a list and a set of rules. I believe that the experience of listening to music at its best is an active, creative and formative one, it forms you as a person. In this sense it is very different from, for example, the experience of completing a tax return or learning about solving first order differential equations. It is more like finding friends or lovers.


Your fear is noted.

By the way, I very much appreciate the vast majority of your knowledgeable contributions to this thread.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> ... or going on a long travel adventure with a backpack and an open mind.


Funny you should say that. I'm currently sitting in a camper van in Southern France, on Day-79 of full-time travel. I know where I'll be spending the next three nights but after that, who knows? 

I know what I'll be listening to though!


----------



## new but obsessed

I'll back up this approach. It reminds me of fantastic music history classes for jazz, experimental music, and 1960s music I took in high school and college, which tended to be chronological in order. As someone who knew very little about classical before embarking on this "journey", it really helped to hear how the music changes over time. The random way music is played on radio didn't help me delineate between the eras as well as going through this. Spending weeks on Baroque, then Classical, then Romantic, for instance, helps really hammer down the overarching trends within each or see how the music evolves. It's like watching a set of time lapse photos of a butterfly's metamorphosis -- it really makes a lot of sense to view it as a set of chronological images than a random smattering. It's not the only way, but it has its benefits. 

So I see this as a nice non-graded, at-your-own-pace version of a fun music history class. Of course, it's up to each of us to dig into this on our own and to digest it at our own turns. Any appreciation of this music is better than the alternative, which might be zero -- indeed I was coming from near-zero and looking to get up to speed. Still, it's not like I'm off to run a symphony orchestra next year! So how well I do or how "stifled" I am is not really a material concern. I'm just happy to have so much music thrown my way each week! Having to figure out all the recommendations for each composer on my own would be a real task. (The "essentials" playlists on Apple Music are odd and inconsistent, for instance). 

Lastly, there are no rules and procedures for going through and listening to this music. The "rules and procedures" were used to compile the list. Useful, I say. 

Of course, I also have other listening outside of this music. That is, as you say, random and "active, creative and formative". This "journey" is very much the exception to my typical music listening. But I do it cuz it's fun! And after it's over, I'll have a much broader of range of music to return to and explore in my more typical way. Win win!

Also, I do appreciate the music tips and contributions you have chipped in, Mandryka. Good stuff! You're clearly way ahead of me in learning about this stuff and are much less in need of a guide than I am. And I don't have many classical people in my life so it's awesome to come on here and get all this info!

Cheers all.


----------



## pianozach

Mandryka said:


> I wasn't aware of this in fact, so I can't comment.


Check it out when you have a chance.


----------



## Luchesi

pianozach said:


> Check it out when you have a chance.


It may be that you and I have had the 3rd approach to discovering music. How did you begin this journey?


----------



## pianozach

Luchesi said:


> It may be that you and I have had the 3rd approach to discovering music. How did you begin this journey?


I explain the *Beginner's Guide* journey in the thread.

My own journey? A family with a rather eclectic record collection, and a mother that loved theatre. The record collection was diverse, with Tchaikovsky, film soundtracks, musical theatre cast recordings, lots of Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass, 101 Strings, Big Band, Frank Sinatra, Barbra Streisand, comedy records, and on and on. As an older teen I hung with many friends and lovers that listened to of all sorts of genres and subgenres of music. Played in a few rock bands (one played only originals) in my teens, and was in a record-company-sponsored Progressive Country Rock fusion band in college that played at the *L.A. Street Scene Music Fest* between *Tower of Power* and *War*. Wrong audience for our type of music, LOL.

I also was blessed with piano lessons at a very young age, and the lessons were Classically based. My older brother (4 years) also loved music, and collected a rather diverse array of rock and pop. I fell in love with The Beatles thoroughly, as I was right there in my pre-teen years when they were together. Later fell in love with Prog Rock, and became very involved with Musical Theatre from my first show at 10 years old, to accompanying them starting at 14 years (yes, I was paid, which made me a "professional" LOL). Was Musical Directing community theatre productions soon after graduating high school. 

Had a love for random Classical music since I was a kid, and even competed in serious Bach competitions. Randomly found lots of Classical music on my life journey. I've been the Musical Director for a semi-pro operetta group for well over a decade.


----------



## Chilham

pianozach said:


> ... I also was blessed with piano lessons at a very young age ...


The best two gifts you give your children; music and language. They'll stay with them forever.


----------



## Luchesi

pianozach said:


> My own journey? A family with a rather eclectic record collection, and a mother that loved theatre. The record collection was diverse, with Tchaikovsky, film soundtracks, musical theatre cast recordings, lots of Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass, 101 Strings, Big Band, Frank Sinatra, Barbra Streisand, comedy records, and on and on. As an older teen I hung with many friends and lovers that listened to of all sorts of genres and subgenres of music. Played in a few rock bands (one played only originals) in my teens, and was in a record-company-sponsored Progressive Country Rock fusion band in college that played at the *L.A. Street Scene Music Fest* between *Tower of Power* and *War*. Wrong audience for our type of music, LOL.
> 
> I also was blessed with piano lessons at a very young age, and the lessons were Classically based. My older brother (4 years) also loved music, and collected a rather diverse array of rock and pop. I fell in love with The Beatles thoroughly, as I was right there in my pre-teen years when they were together. Later fell in love with Prog Rock, and became very involved with Musical Theatre from my first show at 10 years old, to accompanying them starting at 14 years (yes, I was paid, which made me a "professional" LOL). Was Musical Directing community theatre productions soon after graduating high school.
> 
> Had a love for random Classical music since I was a kid, and even competed in serious Bach competitions. Randomly found lots of Classical music on my life journey. I've been the Musical Director for a semi-pro operetta group for well over a decade.


Well, that sounds like a different history than from Chilham or Mandryka. So just thinking out loud, maybe I come from the rare 4th category. I mean, a child learns a little bit about playing the piano and pop songs, and then wants more and longer melodies (Chopin, Schubert and Mozart). I actually 'transcribed' some Motown arrangements of hits of the Supremes into classical-like exercise pieces, like those you find in the entry-level piano books. Anyway, it kept me intrigued and motivated.


----------



## starthrower

After twelve years at this forum I have to admit that I never look at the lists of recommended works. I enjoy reading discussions about composers, pieces, and performances that listeners are passionate about to gain some inspiration. But mostly, as Mandryka mentioned, I listen to what moves me and follow my nose so to speak. Lately I've been listening to VW symphonies quite a bit and branching out to include some pieces by Arthur Bliss, and Maxwell Davies. 

I've also had the desire to find some late renaissance and early baroque music to connect with because I'm fascinated with the vocal music for the most part. There are so many composers and works so I have to start very slow with just a few composers to try to discover more of what grabs my ear. 

10-12 years ago it was pretty much all modern music from 1900 up through the 1990s that fascinated me and learned a great deal from the members here and as a result collected many recordings that I still value very highly. And after that I got the Mahler bug which continues today.


----------



## Chilham

starthrower said:


> After twelve years at this forum I have to admit that I never look at the lists of recommended works. I enjoy reading discussions about composers, pieces, and performances that listeners are passionate about to gain some inspiration. But mostly, as Mandryka mentioned, I listen to what moves me and follow my nose so to speak. Lately I've been listening to VW symphonies quite a bit and branching out to include some pieces by Arthur Bliss, and Maxwell Davies.
> 
> I've also had the desire to find some late renaissance and early baroque music to connect with because I'm fascinated with the vocal music for the most part. There are so many composers and works so I have to start very slow with just a few composers to try to discover more of what grabs my ear.
> 
> 10-12 years ago it was pretty much all modern music from 1900 up through the 1990s that fascinated me and learned a great deal from the members here and as a result collected many recordings that I still value very highly. And after that I got the Mahler bug which continues today.


Do you like or recommend any of the music on this week's list?


----------



## starthrower

That's a huge list! I haven't listened to many of these pieces in years. I do like the Honegger symphonies although I'm not intimately familiar with all six. I have both the Baudo, and Dutoit cycles. The sound is warmer on the Dutoit but I'll give Baudo the edge for intensity. I love all kinds of choral music so the Durufle Requiem is in my collection. I like the organ and chorus arrangement. I just ordered Naxos CDs of the Walton works so I'll be getting to those soon. I'm a fan of the Gerhard symphonies although it's been a few years since I gave them a listen. I have to plead ignorance concerning the music of Korngold, Harris, Antheil, and Hanson. I'm a fan of Williams Schuman's symphonies. And I like some pieces by Carter, and Crumb. I once heard the Weill violin concerto on the radio and it sounded pretty interesting. But I need to hear it again. Like most Americans I can enjoy a good melody by Gershwin, or Copland but I don't listen to them very often. But An American In Paris is a highly enjoyable work which I prefer over Rhapsody In Blue which for my ears wore out its welcome rather quickly decades ago.


----------



## starthrower

I now realize I was looking at the list from the end of October. But all of these lists are really too long for one week. From the Nov.18 list I'll mention Lutoslawski's 3rd symphony which is a desert isle work for me. I prefer the composer's recording on Philips, and the YouTube video conducted by Hannu Lintu is very exciting! I also love the 2nd symphony, and the cello concerto. I've listened to some of Britten's operas but I don't pretend to have any kind of deep understanding of the works. But I enjoyed Peter Grimes, and A Midsummer Night's Dream conducted by the composer. I didn't get on with Billy Budd all that much. I pretty much enjoy everything I've listened to by Dutilleux. I have the Erato 4 disc set. I hope to revisit the Britten string quartets soon. One piece I like by Ginastera is his 2nd cello concerto. I don't know much of Cage's music but I just learned about a percussion works CD on Naxos that features music by Cage, and Ginastera, as well as Lou Harrison. I plan on picking up the CD soon.


----------



## pianozach

starthrower said:


> I now realize I was looking at the list from the end of October. But all of these lists are really too long for one week. From the Nov.18 list I'll mention Lutoslawski's 3rd symphony which is a desert isle work for me. I prefer the composer's recording on Philips, and the YouTube video conducted by Hannu Lintu is very exciting! I also love the 2nd symphony, and the cello concerto. I've listened to some of Britten's operas but I don't pretend to have any kind of deep understanding of the works. But I enjoyed Peter Grimes, and A Midsummer Night's Dream conducted by the composer. I didn't get on with Billy Budd all that much. I pretty much enjoy everything I've listened to by Dutilleux. I have the Erato 4 disc set. I hope to revisit the Britten string quartets soon. One piece I like by Ginastera is his 2nd cello concerto. I don't know much of Cage's music but I just learned about a percussion works CD on Naxos that features music by Cage, and Ginastera, as well as Lou Harrison. I plan on picking up the CD soon.


Yes, they generally ARE far too much music for one week, at least for the average person. That's probably why the tier system is great . . . you can simply start at the top, and see how far you get. Or you can choose the entries with embedded links, so you can read a bit of info about the work or composer. I'll also play "potluck" and go with titles that I think are intriguing to me for one reason reason or another.

One thing that is very nice about these vblog sites, is that you can read a thread such as this at your own pace. If you're a completist, you might take four weeks to listen to a "week's worth" of music listed in one post.


----------



## Mandryka

The list in fact prompted me to read Melville’s Billy Budd again - I last read it when I was a graduate student. What it shows is how well the interview chords work. There’s nothing quite like that in the book, and it’s a great asset I think in the opera. It’s possibly one of those things which is “sayable” in music (Vere and Budd’s state of mind), and maybe not in words.

I don’t think there’s a precedent for a passage like those interview chords - it always makes me think of Shostakovich quartet 15, but probably the similarities, if they exist, are very superficial.


----------



## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> ... Turn of the Screw arguably a masterpiece.


Oh, yes.


----------



## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> Oh, yes.



There's a moment when he sings _the ceremony of innocence is drowned_. It's pretty scary actually. Here -- if I were richer I would stage it in a house party like this, and invite you

britten screw ceremony innocence - Google Search

Today is Britten's birthday.


----------



## Chilham

Britten sat very well with me this week. Better than I'd anticipated. I'm not a great fan of opera sung in English, often sounds way too earnest, but he makes it work. Enjoyed much of his other listed works too. Several nice pieces from Hovhannes, Ginastera and Gould added to the experience.

Good chance I'll be off-grid tomorrow, so here comes next week's listing. We're getting down into where I found few recommendations. When I cast my net a little wider, more recommendations came , but often not for the same works. Over the remaining weeks, you'll therefore find fewer works at the top levels but, and I promise it's not to annoy those who already think the lists are too long, more works overall. So, composers born 1917-1925 including Bernstein (West Side Story and his other film, musical and operetta works to come in Week 52), Berio, Boulez and Ligeti.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
No works

*Level 4*
*Bernstein, Leonard*: Mass
*Berio, Luciano*: Sinfonia
Bernstein, Leonard: Chichester Psalms
*Boulez, Pierre*: Le Marteau Sans Maitre
*Ligeti, György*: Atmosphères
Bernstein, Leonard: Symphony No. 2 "The Age of Anxiety"
Ligeti, Gyorgy: Études Book 1 No. 4 Fanfares

*Level 5*
Ligeti, György: Lontano
Bernstein, Leonard: Fancy Free
Bernstein, Leonard: Symphony No. 1 "Jeremiah"
*Xenakis, Iannis*: Metastaseis
Boulez, Pierre: Pli Selon Pli
Boulez, Pierre: Second Piano Sonata
Boulez, Pierre: Répons
*Nono, Luigi*: Il Canto Sospeso
*Harrison, Lou*: Suite for Violin and American Gamelan
Bernstein, Leonard: Symphony No. 3 "Kaddish"

*Level 6*
Ligeti, György: Violin Concerto
Xenakis, Iannis; *Pléïades*
Nono, Luigi: Fragmente-Stille, An Diotima
Boulez, Pierre: Ritual in Memoriam Bruno Moderna
Berio, Luciano: Sequenza VIII for Violin
Xenakis, Iannis: Oresteia
Xenakis, Iannis: *Tetras*
Boulez, Pierre: Structures
Boulez, Pierre: Eclats/Multiples
Bernstein, Leonard: Sonata for Clarinet & Piano
Ligeti, György: Requiem
Ligeti, György: Le Grand Macabre
Ligeti, György: Sonata for Cello
Nono, Luigi: Intolleranza 1960
Nono, Luigi: Prometeo
Ligeti, György: Piano Concerto
*Arnold, Malcolm*: Symphony No. 5
Xenakis, Iannis: Jonchaies
Xenakis, Iannis: Pithoprakta
Arnold, Malcolm: Four Scottish Dances
*Zimmerman, Bernd Alois*: Die Soldaten
Bernstein, Leonard: Serenade after Plato's Symposium
Boulez, Pierre: 12 Notations pour piano esp. I Fantasque - Modéré
Berio, Luciano: Sequenza IV for Piano
Arnold, Malcolm: Symphony No. 2
Rochberg, George: String Quartet No. 5
Berio, Luciano: Laborintus II
Berio, Luciano: Sequenza I
Rochberg, George: String Quartet No. 6
Rochberg, George: String Quartet No. 4
*Rorem, Ned*: Evidence of Things Not Seen
Arnold, Malcolm: Wind Quintet

*Level 7*
Ligeti, György: Musica ricercata esp. No. 7, Cantabile, molto legato
Ligeti, György: Chamber Concerto
Boulez, Pierre: Anthèmes II
Rochberg, George: String Quartet No. 3
Boulez, Pierre: Dérive 2
Ligeti, György: Clocks and Clouds
Berio, Luciano: Rendering
*Piazzola, Astor*: History of Tango esp. ii. Café 1930
Piazzola, Astor: Libertango
Xenakis, Iannis: Rebonds
*Ustvolskaya, Galin*a: Piano Sonata No. 6
Nono, Luigi: Al Gran Sole Carico d'Amore
Zimmerman Bernd Alois: Requiem für einen jungen Dichter
Boulez, Pierre: First Piano Sonata
Rochberg, George: Symphony No. 2
Husa, Karel: Music for Prague 1968
Ligeti, György: San Fransisco Polyphony
Harrison, Lou: Piano Concerto
Ligeti, György: Nonsense Madrigals
Boulez, Pierre: Sur Incises
Boulez, Pierre: Third Piano Sonata
Goeyvaerts, Karel: Sonata for Two Pianos
Rochberg, George: Symphony No. 3
Ustvolskaya, Galina: Jesus Messiah, Save Us!
Berio, Luciano: Un Re in Ascolto
Berio, Luciano: Visage
Shapey, Ralph: Concerto Fantastique
Pinkham, Daniel: Christmas Cantata

Honourable mentions:
Ward, Robert: The Crucible, Symphony No. 2
Einem, Gottfried von: Danton's Tod
Kay, Ulysses: Umbrian Scene
*Yun, Isang*: Cello Concerto
Brubeck, Dave: La Fiesta de la Posada
*Maderna, Bruno*: Satyricon
Scott, Hazel: Idyll
Shankar, Ravi: Raga Piloo
Gipps, Ruth: Knight in Armour, Song for Orchestra, Symphony No. 2, Symphony No. 4
*Kokkonen, Joonas*: The Last Temptations
Carwithen, Doreen: Piano Sonatina 2. Molto Adagio
Foss, Lukas: Baroque Variations, String Quartet No. 1, Time Cycle
Mingus, Charlie: Jazzical Moods
Walker, George: Lyrics for Strings
Dring, Madeleine: Danza Gaya, Italian Dance
Guèbrou, Emahoy Tsegué-Maryam: Homesickness, The Homeless Wanderer
*Mennin, Peter*: Symphony No. 3
Morley, Angela: Reverie
*Schuler, Gunther*: Concerto for Orchestra No. 1, Of Reminiscences and Rflections
*Theodorakis, Mikis*: Tragoudia Tou Agona


----------



## Mandryka

I would like to hear Shapey's Concerto Fantastique. Can anyone help?
I like Xenakis's Tetras very much.
I also like Pli selon pli -- but I've found it hard to find a commercial recording which pulls off the Mallarmé improvisations. Pintscher did in a 2015 performance, but it's never been released commercially.
Prometeo seems to me to be obviously a major piece of work, but you miss too much not being in a live performance I think. Still, well worth dipping in to to sense the effect.
I think the Ligeti requiem is really impressive actually.
The Boulez notations can be quite fun in the right hands -- David Frey maybe.
The most interesting performance of the Boulez 3rd piano sonata I've ever heard is a little snippet from Boulez himself, it used to be on the _Institut national de l'audiovisuel_ site, called _Pierre Boulez: pédagogue de son travail_.


----------



## Mandryka

Xenakis's Metastasis is an astonishing thing. There's a story that Varèse was at the first performance and commented,"This is the music of the future."


----------



## starthrower

I'm a big fan of many of the Ligeti, and Bernstein pieces. I need to dust off my Bernstein original jacket set. It has two recordings of Age of Anxiety. I prefer the DG recording of Kaddish with the male monologist. I uploaded a live performance of Arnold's 5th in the Current Listening thread. It's by an American ensemble recorded in Phoenix, 2017. It's about time I revisited my Xenakis orchestral box on the Timpani label. I'm glad I bought this before it disappeared. I should've bought the Boulez Works box on DG as well but it's gone now.


----------



## Neo Romanza

starthrower said:


> I'm a big fan of many of the Ligeti, and Bernstein pieces. I need to dust off my Bernstein original jacket set. It has two recordings of Age of Anxiety. I prefer the DG recording of Kaddish with the male monologist. I uploaded a live performance of Arnold's 5th in the Current Listening thread. It's by an American ensemble recorded in Phoenix, 2017. It's about time I revisited my Xenakis orchestral box on the Timpani label. I'm glad I bought this before it disappeared. I should've bought the Boulez Works box on DG as well but it's gone now.


I consider myself rather lucky to have both the Xenakis Timpani box set and the Boulez _Complete Works_ box set on DG.

For the Bernstein, I gave away my 'Original Jackets' set and I bought for this larger set:










I also bought the Bernstein DG set when it came out:










Both are fantastic sets and should satisfy one's need to explore Bernstein's own music.


----------



## Chilham

Some good and interesting pieces this week; Berio's Sinfonia, Bernstein's Sonata for Clarinet and Piano and Symphony No. 2, Ligeti's Violin Concerto, Xanakis Pléiades, Boulez' Le Marteau Sans Maître. I didn't feel the same way about all of the pieces I listened to, and in fact, found some a chore to get through.

On to next week and composers born 1926-1933. Górecki's Symphony No. 3, and both Crumb's Black Angels and Penderecki's String Quartet No. 3, which I listened to earlier this year when they were the String Quartet of the Week, are the only pieces I know here. If there's anything you'd personally recommend, please let me know.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
No works

*Level 4*
*Górecki, Henryk*, Symphony No. 3 "Symphony of Sorrowful Songs" esp. II. Lento e Largo - Tranquillissimo

*Level 5*
*Feldman, Morton*: Rothko Chapel
*Penderecki, Krzysztof*: Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima
*Stockhausen, Karlheinz*: Stimmung
Stockhausen, Karlheinz: *Gesang der Jünglinge*
*Rautavaara, Einojuhani*: Cantus Arcticus, Op. 1 esp. II. Melankolia
*Gubaidulina, Sofia*: Offertorium
Penderecki, Krzysztof: St. Luke Passion
*Crumb, George*: Makrokosmos
*Takemitsu, Toru*: November Steps
Stockhausen, Karlheinz: Gruppen
Takemitsu, Toru: A Flock Descends into the Pentagonal Garden
Feldman, Morton: String Quartet No. 2
*Henze, Hans*: Symphony No. 7
Henze, Hans: Elegy for Young Lovers

*Level 6*
Crumb, George: Ancient Voices of Children
*Barraqué, Jean*: Piano Sonata
Stockhausen, Karlheinz: Klavierstücke IX
Crumb, George: *Black Angels*
Feldman, Morton: Piano Quartet
Stockhausen, Karlheinz: *Kontakte*
Rautavaara, Einojuhani: Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light"
*Nørgård, Per*: Symphony No. 3
*Shchedrin, Rodion*: Carmen (Ballet)
Takemitsu, Toru: Ran (Film)
Penderecki, Krzysztof: Polish Requiem
Henze, Hans: El Cimarrón (The Runaway Slave)
Henze, Hans: Boulevard Solitude
Stockhausen, Karlheinz: Hymnen
Henze, Hans: The Raft of Medusa
*Kurtág, György*: Messages of the Late Miss RV Troussova
Stockhausen, Karlheinz: Donnerstag Aus Licht
Stockhausen, Karlheinz: Refrain
Henze, Hans: String Quartet No. 4
Henze, Hans: String Quartet No. 5

*Level 7*
Takemitsu, Toru: From Me Flows What You Call Time
*Sculthorpe, Peter*: Kakadu
Gubaidulina, Sofia: Seven Words
Feldman, Morton: For Philip Guston
Sculthorpe, Peter: Earth Cry
Gubaidulina, Sofia: Canticle for the Sun
Gubaidulina, Sofia: Jetzt Immer Schee
Crumb, George: Vox Balaenae
Penderecki, Krzysztof: De Natura Sonoris No. 1 & 2
Penderecki, Krzysztof: Symphony No. 1
Stockhausen, Karlheinz: Kontra-Punkte
Shchedrin, Rodion: Piano Concerto No. 2
Rautavaara, Einojuhani: Autumn Gardens esp. 3. Giocoso e Leggiero
Penderecki, Krzysztof: Devils of Loudun
Henze, Hans: Royal Winter Music (Guitar Sonatas No. 1 and 2)
Barraqué, Jean: La Mort de Virgile
Takemitsu, Toru: Nostalgia
Górecki, Henryk: Miserere
*Denisov, Edison*: Requiem
Stockhausen, Karlheinz: Kreuzspiel
Penderecki, Krzysztof: Fluorescences
Kurtág, György: Játékok
Kurtág, György: Fin de Partie
Górecki, Henryk: Kleines Requiem für Eine Polka
Gubaidulina, Sofia: Stimmen … Verstummen …
Penderecki, Krzysztof: *String Quartet No. 3 "Leaves of an Unwritten Diary"*
*Mayuzumi, Toshiro*: Nirvana Symphony
Sculthorpe, Peter: Small Town
Argento, Dominik: Postcard from Morocco
Colgrass, Michael: Winds of Nagual
*Schafer, R Murray*: Apocalypsis

Honourable mentions:
*Kagel, Mauricio*: Sankt-Bach-Passion
Brown, Earle: Available Forms II, December, Folio, Twenty-Five Pages
Childs, Barney: A Box of View, Trombone Sonata
Jolas, Betsy: A Little Summer Suite
Jonson, Ben: Chloridia, Epicoene, Lovers Made Men, The Masque of Blackness
Henry, Pierre: Apocalypse de Jean
Hidalgo, Juan: Celos aun del Aire Matan, Los Celos Hacen Estrellas
*Musgrave, Thea*: Simon Bolivar, The Seasons esp. 4. Summer
Pousseur, Henri: Votre Faust
Goehr, Alexander: Arden Muss Sterben, Behold the Sun
*Kilar, Wojciech*: Agnus Dei
Oliveras, Pauline: Suiren
Perkinson, Coleridge-Taylor: Movement for String Trio
*Williams, John*: Olympic: Fanfare and Theme "1984 Los Angeles Games", Tuba Concerto


----------



## Chilham

I enjoyed the Górecki and Henze symphonies very much this week, as well as Stimmung. Feldman and Takemistu are interesting. The rest, I'm not sure.

I've a busy weekend coming up starting tomorrow. I could probably find the time, but so I don't have to find the time, here's the listing for next week. Composers born 1934-39. I've been looking forward to this week as I love the few pieces I've listened to from Glass and Pårt. 

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
*Reich, Steve*: *Music for 18 Musicians*

*Level 4*
*Pårt, Arvo*: Fratres
*Glass, Philip*: Einstein on the Beach

*Level 5*
*Schnittke, Alfred*: Concerto Grosso No. 1
Pårt, Arvo: Spiegel im Spiegel
Reich, Steve: Different Trains
Corigliano, John: Symphony No. 1
Reich, Steve: Tehillim
*Birtwistle, Harrison*: The Mask of Orpheus
*Riley, Terry*: In C
Glass, Philip: Akhnaten
*Davies, Peter Maxwell*: Eight Songs for a Mad King
Zwillich, Ellen Taafe: Symphony No. 1 "Three Movements for Orchestra"
Reich, Steve: Come Out
Schnittke, Alfred: Viola Concerto

*Level 6*
Schnittke, Alfred: Piano Quintet
Glass, Philip: Music in 12 Parts
Reich, Steve: Six Pianos
Reich, Steve: Drumming
Glass, Philip: Violin Concerto No. 1
Glass, Philip: String Quartet No. 3 "Mishima" esp. I. 1957 Award Montage
Schnittke, Alfred: Symphony No. 1
Reich, Steve: The Desert Music
*Wuorinen, Charles*: Piano Quintet No. 2
Birtwistle, Harrison: The Triumph of Time
Reich, Steve: Clapping Music
Pårt, Arvo: Tabula Rasa
*Rzewski, Frederic*: The People United Will Never Be Defeated
Glass, Philip: Satyagraha (Opera)
Schnittke, Alfred: Concerto for Mixed Chorus "Choir Concerto"
*Lachenmann, Helmut*: Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern (Little Match Girl)
*Andriessen, Louis*: De Staat
Glass, Philip: Symphony No. 5
Reich, Steve: Music for Mallet Instruments, Voices and Organ
Birtwistle, Harrison: The Minotaur
Davies, Peter Maxwell: Farewell to Stromness
Davies, Peter Maxwell: Worldes Blis
Riley, Terry: A Rainbow in Curved Air
Davies, Peter Maxwell: Strathclyde Concertos esp. No. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
Andriessen, Louis: De Tijd
Davies, Peter Maxwell: Symphony No. 1
Bolcom, William: Songs of Innocence and Experience
Davies, Peter Maxwell: Symphony No. 5
Glass, Philip: The Photographer
*Tower, Joan*: Petroushskates

*Level 7*
Schnittke, Alfred: Cello Concerto
Schnittke, Alfred: Symphony No. 2 "St Florian"
*Reimann, Arlbert*: Lear
Pårt, Arvo: Cantus in Memoriam Benjamin Britten
Birtwistle, Harrison: Earth Dances
Reich, Steve: Electric Counterpoint esp. I. Fast
Pårt, Arvo: Kanon Pokajanen
Glass, Philip: *Glassworks*
Pårt, Arvo: Für Alina
Pårt, Arvo: Stabat Mater
Pårt, Arvo: Summa
Pårt, Arvo: Magnificat
Andriessen, Louis: Writing to Vermeer
Moran, Robert: Trinity Requiem: In paradisum
Lachenmann, Helmut: *String Quartet No. 1"Gran Torso"*
Reich, Steve: Music for Pieces of Wood
Glass, Philip: Étude No. 2
Glass, Philip: Metamorphosis III
*Cardew, Cornelius*: The Great Learning
Glass, Philip: La Belle et la Bête
Silvestrov, Valentin: Bagatelle III
Pårt, Arvo: Passio Domini Nostri
Pårt, Arvo: St John Passion
Cornelius Cardew: Treatise
*Harvey, Jonathan*: String Quartet No. 4
*Kapustin, Nikolai*: 8 Concert Etudes esp. No. 1. Prelude
*Coates, Gloria*: Symphony No. 1 "Music on Open Strings"
Lachenmann, Helmut: Schwankungen am Rand
Sallinen, Aulis: Chamber Music I-III
Reich, Steve: Triple Quartet
Harvey, Jonathan: Body Mandala
Pårt, Arvo: Nune Dimittis
Sallinen, Aulis: Ratsurnies

Honourable mentions:
Maw, Nicholas: Odyssey
Davidovsky, Marlo: Synchronisms No. 6
Schickele, Peter: A Year in the Catskills, PDQ Bach Compositions, String Quartet No. 5, Symphony No. 1 "Songlines"
*Young, La Monte*: Compositions, The Tortoise, His Dreams and Journeys
*Bennett, Richard*: Capriccio, The Mines of Sulpur
Derbyshire, Delia: Time on Our Hands
Tredici, David del: Alice Symphony, Ballad in Lavender, Child Alice
Harbison, John: The Great Gatsby


----------



## new but obsessed

Interesting stuff these past few weeks. And I thought Schoenberg and Berg would be the height of challenging, odd music. But that still made much classical sense!

This recent music much more so reminds me of modern film scores --- music that can effectively creep you out in a sci fi or horror or thriller, or works well behind some moody piece of cinema. In fact, that's from where I know the pieces by Ligetti (2001 A Space Odyssey).

The prior two weeks were otherwise completely new to me. I knew of Stockhausen, but realized I've never actually listened to his music. Stimmung is very interesting and is piece that reminds me most of contemporary experimental/ambient music (Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith, etc). 

It's finally again this week that I'm actually familiar with a bunch of the compositions. Reich, Reilly, Glass were my initial foray into experimental music and opera. I'm glad to be prompted to revisit these faves this week.

EDIT: Glad to be listening to a new-to-me recording of Reich's Music for 18 Musicians. I've always really liked this piece. I also remember the first time I stumbled onto Riley's A Rainbow in Curved Air a few years ago. Blew my mind! My kind of trippy 1960s music!


----------



## Chilham

What a fascinating week! Pärt's Spiegel im Spiegel, and Glass' "Mishima" are two of my favourite works. Akhnaten was a revelation, Reich's Music for 18 Musicians really good, and the Birtwistle pieces very interesting. Then again, Maxwell Davies' 8 Songs for a Mad King and Glass' Music in Twelve Parts left me cold to say the least. I found Schnittke unexpectedly challenging so will return again.

On to next week, composers born since 1940. Okay, even I think this list is ridiculous, but it doesn't mean there isn't some value here. There are several recent threads that would help anyone interested in a deep-dive into contemporary classical music, so I provide the list here purely for reference and consistency with previous weeks. 

I have all the works lined up down to and including Weir's "A Night at the Chinese Opera". If there's anything below that that you feel is worth a listen for someone new to this era, please tell me.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
No works

*Level 4*
*Adams, John*: Nixon in China
Adams, John: Short Ride In A Fast Machine

*Level 5*
Adams, John: Harmonielehre
*Saariaho, Kaija*: L'Amour de Loin
Adams, John: The Chairman Dances
Adams, John: Shaker Loops
Tavener, John: The Protecting Veil
Adams, John: Grand Pianola Music
*MacMillan, James*: Veni, Veni Emmanuel
Tavener, John: The Lamb - "Little Lamb, Who Made Thee"

*Level 6*
Adams, John: Harmonium
*Higdon, Jennifer*: Violin Concerto
Adams, John: Violin Concerto
Weir, Judith: A Night at The Chinese Opera
Adams, John: El Nïño
*Whitacre, Eric*: Lux Aurumque
*Murail, Tristan*: Gondwana
*Adams, John Luther*: *Become Ocean*
Tavener, John: Song for Athene
*Lindberg, Magnus*: Kraft
Richter, Max: Four Seasons Recomposed esp. iii. Spring
Lindberg, Magnus: Aura (In Memorian Witold Lutawski)
Adams, John: The Death of Klinghoffer
Knussen, Oliver: Symphony No. 3
*Adès, Thomas*: Asyla
Rutter, John: Requiem
Lindberg, Magnus: Related Rocks
MacMillan, James: The Confession of Isobel Gowdie
Monk, Meredith: Atlas
Higdon, Jennifer: Blue Cathedral
Kats-Chernin, Elena: Wild Swans
Benjamin, Sir George: Ringed by the Flat Horizon
Daugherty, Michael: Deus et Machina
McCartney, Paul: Liverpool Oratorio
*Jenkins, Karl*: The Armed Man esp. Benedictus
Tavener, John: Mother of God, Here I Stand, The Veil of the Temple
Tavener, John: The Whale
Larsen, Libby: A Lover's Journey
Knussen, Oliver: Horn Concerto
Rihm, Wolfgang: Eighth String Quartet
Daugherty, Michael: Metropolis Symphony for Ocrhestra
Weir, Judith: Love Bade Me Welcome
Weir, Judith: Missa El Cid
Einaudi, Ludivico: I Giorni
Turnage, Mark-Anthony: Blood on the Floor
Turnage, Mark-Anthony: The Silver Tassie
Higdon, Jennifer: Piano Trio esp. i. Pale Yellow
*Auerbach, Lera*: 24 Preludes
Stopford, Philip: Ave Verum

*Level 7*
*Abrahamsen, Hans*: Let Me Tell You
*Grisey, Gérard*: Les Espaces Acoustiques
Lauridsen, Morten: O Magnum Mysterium
Bryars, Gavin: Jesus' Blood Never Failed Me Yet
Adams, John: Naïve and Sentimental Music
*Murail, Tristan*: Désintégrations
Lindberg, Magnus: Clarinet Concerto
*Chin, Unsuk*: Šu
Saariaho, Kaija: D’Om le Vrai Sens (Clarinet Concerto)
Saariaho, Kaija: Nymphéa
Saariaho, Kaija: Graal Théâtre
Murail, Tristan: Winter Fragments
Chin, Unsuk: Piano Concerto
Adams, John: Phyrgian Gates
Higdon, Jennifer: Concerto for Orchestra
*Shaw, Caroline*: Partita for 8 Voices
Adès, Thomas: The Tempest
Richter, Max: Blue Notebooks esp. Vladimir's Blues
Richter, Max: On the Nature of Daylight
*Márquez, Arturo*: Danzón No.2
*Vasks, Pēteris:* Cor Anglais Concerto
Benjamin, George: Written on Skin
Ruders, Poul: Solar Trilogy
Adès, Thomas: Powder Her Face
Benjamin, George: Palimpsests
Gjeilo, Ola: Ubi Caritas
Murail, Tristan: L'Esprit des Dunes
*Salonen, Esa-Pekka:* Wing on Wing
*Lang, David*: Little Match Girl Passion
Lauridsen, Morten: Les Chansons des roses esp. No. 5. Dirait-on- En Concierto
Goebbels, Heiner: Hashirigaki
*Sciarrino, Salvatore*: Luci Mie Traditrici
Wallen, Errolyn: Cello Concerto
Whitacre, Eric: Cloudburst
Tavener, John: Fragments of a Prayer
Mantovani, Bruno: La Sette Chiese
*Ali-Zadeh, Franghiz*: Mugam Sayagi (String Quartet No. 3)
Benjamin, George: Sudden Time
Adès, Thomas: Living Toys
Ruders, Poul: The Handmaid's Tale
Danielpour, Richard: First Light
Rihm, Wolfgang: Die Eroberung von Mexico
Rihm, Wolfgang: Jakob Lenz
Wallen, Errolyn: Mighty River

Honourable mentions:
*Zappa, Frank*: G-Spot Tornado, Outrage at Valdez
Edwards, Ross: Dawn Mantras
Hailstork, Adolphus: Fanfare on Amazing Grace
*Ferneyhough, Brian*: Time and Motion Study , Time and Motion Study II, Sonatas for String Quartet, Unity Capsule
*Gruber, Heinz Karl*: Aerial, Frankenstein!
*Leon, Tania*: Inura: Teaching, Four Pieces for for Cello, with Violoncello Solo
Schwantner, Joseph: And the Mountains Rising Nowhere, Chasing Light, Sparrows
*Eötvös, Peter*: Shadows, Three Sisters
Höller, York: Der Meister und Margerita
*Nyman, Michael*: String Quartets, The Upside-Down Violin
Spiegel, Laurie: The Unquestioned Answer
Matthews, Colin: Pluto, The Renewer
Skempton, Howard: Well, Well Cornelius
*Bennett, Richard*: Adventures in a Perambulator, Symphony No. 1
Berkeley, Michael: Baa-Baa Black Sheep, Cradle Song
Jarre, Jean Michel: Industrial Revolution
*Aho, Kalevi*: Insect Symphony
Cardoso, Jorge: Milonga
Joel, Billy: Fantasies and Delusions, Invention in C Minor
Paulus, Stephen: The Road House
Ruders, Poul: Symphony No. 1
Larsen, Libby: Chanting to Paradise, Dancing Solo, Frankenstein: The Modern Prometheus
Ness, Patrica van: My Heart is a Holy Place
McDowell, Cecilia: Ave Maria Stella
Davidson, Tina: Blue Curve of the Earth
Paccione, Paul: Page for Will
Vir, Param: White Light Chorale
*Zorn, John*: Contes de Fées
Bingham, Judith: The Darkness is No Darkness
Goldenthal, Elliot: Fire Water Paper: A Vietnam Oratorio
Martland, Steve: Beat the Retreat, Drill
Milch-Sheriff, Ella: Can Heaven be Void
Daley, Eleanor: Upon Your Heart
Beamish, Sally: Suite for Cello and Orchestra (after Debussy) esp. 4. Nocturne, Gala Water (1994) for Cello solo
Danielpour, Richard: An American Requiem
Gordon, Ricky Ian: Will There Really Be a Morning
Chen, Yi: Suite for Cello and Chamber Winds
Rehnqvist, Karin: Nar Natten Skänker Frid
*Tan Dun*: Memories in Watercolour Op. 1esp. 4. Blue, 2000 Today: a World Symphony for the Millenium, Marco Polo, Out of Peking Opera, Symphony 1997 "Heaven Earth Mankind", Water Concerto
Goodall, Howard: A Requiem, And the Bridge is Love, Echanted Voices, Spared, Eternal Light
Hawes, Patrick: Blue in Blue, Highgrove Suite, Into the Light, Quanta Qualia
Lewis, Geraint: The Souls of the Righteous
Wallen, Errolyn: Concerto Grosso, Horseplay
Westlake, Nigel: Antarctica Suite, Compassion
Dove, Jonathan: The Three Kings
Wolfe, Julia: Anthracite Fields esp. 4. Flowers
Golijov, Osvaldo: Azul 3. "Transit"
Meyer, Edgar: !B
Pook, Jocelyn: The Wife
Tanaka, Karen: Lavender Field
Torke, Michael: Book of Proverbs, Chamber Works, Four Proverbs
Grigorjeva, Galina: In Paradisum
Degli, Antoni: Ricercate
Urquhart, Craig: Autumn Leaves
Fitkin, Graham: Hook
Ruehr, Elena: String Concerto No 5
Dubra, Rihards: Ave Maria 1
Sawhney, Nitin: Breathing Light
Glennie, Yvelyn: A Little Prayer
Williams, Roderick: Let Nothing Trouble You
Bertelmann, Volker aka Hauschka: Hike
Helbig, Sven: Schlaflied
Impichchaachaaha' Tate, Jerod: Lowak Shoppala' - Fire and Light Act I: VIII "Koni"
Panufnik, Roxanna: All Shall be Well, Four World Seasons, Songs of Darkness, Dreams of Light
Todd, Will: Lux et Veritas
Grimes, Rachel: Earthly Heaven
Connesson, Guillaume: Disco Toccata
Montero, Gabriela: The Four Seasons (Improvisation) esp. "Winter", Canon (Improvisation)
O'Halloran, Dustin: Fragile No. 4
James, Richard D: Avril 14th
Talbot, Joby: Chroma: Transit of Venus, Once Around the Sun
Igudesman, Aleksey: Lento
Snider, Sarah Kirkland: The Currents
Friedman, Jefferson: String Quartet No 2
Dessner, Bryce: Haven
Lawson, Chad: Nocturne in A Minor
Long, Helen Jane: Porcelain
Mealor, Paul: Locus Iste, A Tender Light, Ave Maria Verum, Coventry Carol, The Call to Wisdom, Ubi Caritas, Wherever You Are
Prestini, Paola: Morning on the Limpopo; Matlou Women
Bates, Mason: Anthology of Fantastic Zoology "Nymphs"
Ešenvalds, Ëriks: Stars
*Thorvaldsdóttir, Anna*: Hear Us
Assad, Clarice: Lachrimae
Lattimore, Mary: Never Saw Him Again
Meredith, Anna: Anno esp. Solstice: Light Out, Heal You, Nautilus
Mazzoli, Missy: Heartbreaker
Britell, Nicholas: Adagio in G Minor
Gow, Phamie: War Song
*Clyne, Anna*: The Violin esp. 6. Resting in the Green
Finch, Catrin & Keita, Seekou: Ceffylau - Horses
Frances-Hoad, Cheryl: Introit and Blessing, Homages esp. I. Contemplation
Tabakova, Dobrinka: Alma Redemptoris Mater, Nocturne
Barwick, Julianna: Call
Cawrse, Anne: Songs Without Words 2. Lied
Montgomery, Jesse: Coincident Dances, Strum
*Muhly, Nico*: Four Studies esp. iii. Slow Canons, Three Studies for Viola esp. Étude 3, Mothertongue , Set Me As a Seal
Negrón, Angélica: Sueño Recurrente
Pikelny, Noam: Waveland
*Bray, Charlotte*: Beyond
Frahm, Nils: Some, Ambre
Guðnadóttir, Hildur: Aether
Shaw, Caroline: Partita for 8 Voices esp. 2. Sarabande, Plan & Elevation: The Grounds of Dumbarton Oaks: 4. The Orangery
Warner, Amelia: Eve
Baranowski, Alex: Biafra
Esmail, Reena: #metoo
Waller-Bridge, Isobel: Music for Strings esp. 2. The Last Words of M
Ôlafsson, Vikingur: For Jóhann
Noit, Hatis: Illogical Lullaby
Alberga, Eleanor: If the Silver Bird Could Speak, Ride Through
Arnalds, Ólafur: Eyes Shut - Nocturne in C Minor, For Now I Am Winter, Momentary (Choir version), Particles
*Firsova, Alissa*: Stabat Mater
Simpson, Mark: Un Regalo
Foley, Xavier Dubois: Shelter Island
Rajasekar, Shruthi: Numbers


----------



## Chilham

A truly engaging week of music, consistently enjoyable, the high-point for me being Taverner’s, The Protecting Veil. No real low-point at all.

Thinking of the coming week with the benefit of hindsight, perhaps I should have kept-back all of the Christmas-themed works. In the absence of that, and in keeping with weeks 13, 26, & 39, I share with you recommended music associated with visual art. That means not opera but music from operetta, film, musicals and games (I excluded music from TV as the listing seemed too UK-centric). I didn’t seek any additional sources for these recommendations, they are from exactly the same main sources as earlier lists. My only editorial involvement, in the absence of most film music in our own listings at TC, is to reveal only those recommended works that were Oscar nominated, or appear in the industry-leading lists of best works in other genres. Classical music? You decide.

So, the final week of my journey, Bernstein, Williams, Morricone, Rota, Zimmer and (probably too) many others.

Yuletide greetings.

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
*Bernstein, Leonard*: West Side Story esp. Somewhere

*Level 3*
*Williams, John*: Star Wars franchise

*Level 4*
Bernstein, Leonard: Candide
Elfman, Danny; Howard, James; Zimmer, Hans; Guðnadóttir, Hildur: Batman franchise
*Ligeti, György*: 2001: A Space Odyssey esp. Lux Aeterna, Requiem, Adventures
*Morricone, Ennio*: The Good, The Bad and the Ugly, The Mission
*Prokofiev, Sergei*: Alexander Nevsky
Rota, Nino: The Godfather
Shore, Howard: Lord of the Rings Trilogy
Steiner, Max: Gone With the Wind

*Level 5*
Barry, John: James Bond, Out of Africa, Dances With Wolves esp. "John Dunbar Theme"
Bernstein, Elmer: The Magnificent Seven
Bernstein, Leonard: On the Waterfront
Carlos, Wendy: A Clockwork Orange
Corigliano, John: Red Violin Caprices
Giacchino, Michael: Up
*Glass, Philip*: Koyaanisqatsi
*Hermann, Bernard*: Psycho, Vertigo
Horner, James: Braveheart, Titanic
Jarre, Maurice: Doctor Zhivago, Lawrence of Arabia
*Korngold, Erich*: The Adventures of Robin Hood
Morricone, Ennio: Once Upon a Time in the West, Cinema Paradiso "Love Theme"
Newman, Thomas: American Beauty
Silvestri, Alan: Back to the Future, Forrest Gump
*Uematsu, Nobuo*: Final Fantasy series
Vangelis: Chariots of Fire
Williams, John: Schindlers List, Jaws, Superman, ET: The Extra-Terrestrial, Indiana Jones franchise, Harry Potter franchise
Zimmer, Hans: Gladiator, Inception (and Badelt, Klaus) Pirates of the Caribbean franchise

*Level 6*
Addinsell, Richard: Warsaw Concerto
Barry, John: Born Free
Bernstein, Elmer: The Great Escape
Bernstein, Leonard: On the Town
Conti, Bill: Rocky
Doyle, Patrick: Sense and Sensibility
Fiedel, Brad: Terminator
Glass, Phillip: The Hours
Goldsmith, Jerry: Planet of the Apes, The Omen, Star Trek
Hamlisch, Marvin: The Sting
Hermann, Bernard: Taxi Driver
Jarre, Maurice: Ghost
Jones, Trevor: Last of the Mohicans
Karas, Anton: The Third Man
Kondo, Koji: The Legend of Zelda
Mansell, Clint: Requiem for a Dream
Marianelli, Dario: Atonement
Mitsuda, Yasunori: Chrono Trigger, Tetris (Korobeiniki)
Morricone, Ennio: Once Upon a Time in America, The Untouchables
Newman, Thomas: The Shawshank Redemption
*Rózsa, Miklós*: Ben-Hur
Shimomura, Yoko: Kingdom Hearts
Soule, Jeremy: The Elder Scrolls esp. V: Skyrim
*Tan Dun*: Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Tiersen, Yann: Amélie
Tiomkin, Dmitri: High Noon
Williams, John: Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Yared, Gabriel: The English Patient
Zimmer, Hans: The Lion King, Interstellar

*Level 7*
Arnold, Malcolm: Bridge on the River Kwai
Danna, Mychael: The Life of Pi
Elfman, Danny: Men in Black
Eshkeri, Ilan: Stardust
Goldsmith, Jerry: Chinatown
Gregson-Williams, Harry: Metal Gear Solid "Sons of Liberty"
Hancock, Herbie: Round Midnight
Horner, James: Aliens, Field of Dreams, Apollo 13, A Beautiful Mind
Howard, James: The Fugitive
Hurwitz, Justin: La La Land
Jarre, Maurice: A Passage to India, Witness
Jones, Quincy: The Italian Job
Kondo, Koji: The Legend of Zelda
Man, Joris de: Killzone
Moross, Jerome: The Big Country
Newman, Thomas: Little Women, Finding Nemo, WALL-E
Nitzsche, Jack: One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
Portman, Rachel: Emma, Mona Lisa Smile , The Manchurian Candidate , Grey Gardens
Reznor, Trent & Ross, Atticus: The Social Network
Sakamoto, Ryuichi: Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence
Simon and Garfunkel: The Graduate
Stothart, Herbert: The Wizard of Oz
Tiomkin, Dmitri: It's a Wonderful Life
Various: Reservoir Dogs
Wintory, Austin: Journey
Waxman, Franz: Sunset Boulevard
Williams, John: Saving Private Ryan, Catch Me if You Can, War Horse

Honourable mentions:
Armstrong, Craig: Romeo + Juliet
Auric, Georges: Moulin Rouge
Coates, Eric: The Dam Busters
Cooder, Ry: Paris, Texas
Cook, The Thief, His Wife and Her Lover, The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat
*Copland, Aaron*: The Red Pony Suite
Davis, Anthony: Amistad, X: The Life and The Times of Malcolm X
Davis, Miles: Ascenseur Pour L’Échafaud
Ellington, Duke: Anatomy of a Murder
Goodwin Ron: 633 Squadron, Battle of Britain
Greenwood, Jonny: Phantom Thread esp. House of Woodcock, There Will Be Blood
Giovanni, Paul: The Wicker Man
Hayasaka, Fumio: The Seven Samurai
Hess, Nigel: Ladies in Lavender
Mancini, Henry: The Pink Panther
McCreary, Bear: God of War
*Nyman, Michael*: The Piano, A Zed& Two Noughts esp. Time Lapse (Piano version), The Poledouris, Basil: Free Willy, Lonesome Dove, Red Dawn, RoboCop, Starship Troopers, The Hunt for Red October
Pook, Jocelyn: The Merchant of Venice esp. How Sweet The Moonlight
Poledouris, Basil: Free Willy, Lonesome Dove, Red Dawn, RoboCop, Starship Troopers, The Hunt for Red October
Tiersen, Yann: American Graffiti
Tin, Christopher: Civilisation IV
Schifrin, Lalo: Rush Hour, The Amityville Horror, Dirty Harry, Mission Impossible
Shankar, Ravi: Pather Panchali
Tiomkin, Dmitri: The Bridge of San Luis Rey, The Guns of Navarone, The Unforgiven, Town Without Pity
Ungar, Jay, The Ashokan Farewell
Warbeck, Stephen: Captain Corelli's Mandolin
Waxman, Franz: Bride of Frankenstein, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, Rear Window, Rebecca, Suspicion, Taras Bulba
Williams, Charles: While I Live "Dream of Olwen"


----------



## new but obsessed

Thanks and congrats on running an excellent program! What a year!


----------



## Chilham

new but obsessed said:


> Thanks and congrats on running an excellent program! What a year!


Thanks NBO, for your encouragement through the year! Thanks to @pianozach and others who contributed, especially @Mandryka for your insights. We covered a lot of ground. I know this approach to listening isn't to everyone's taste, but it proved to be invaluable for me. I'll revisit the periods in 2023, dipping down into the lower levels. 

*Q1*
Week 1a: Early Music & Ars Antiqua inc. Hildegard von Bingen, Pérotin & Léonin
Week 1b: Composers born 1300-1399 inc. Machaut, Dufay & Dunstaple
Week 2: Composers born 1400-1466 inc. Josquin & Ockeghem
Week 3: Composers born 1467-1533 inc. Palestrina, Tallis & Lassus
Week 4: Composers born 1534-1567 inc. Monteverdi, Dowland & Byrd
Week 5: Composers born 1568-1599 inc. Allegri, Schütz & Praetorius
Week 6: Composers born 1600-1633 inc. Carissimi, Lully & Strozzi
Week 7: Composers born 1634-1666 inc. Purcell, Corelli & Biber
Week 8: Composers born 1667-1681 inc. Vivaldi, Couperin & Telemann
Week 9: Composers born 1681-1685 inc. Handel & Rameau
Week 10: Composers born 1685-1695 inc. JS Bach pre-Leipzig
Week 11: Composers born 1696-1699 inc. JS Bach in Leipzig
Week 12: Composers from the Baroque to Classical transition inc. Tartini, Scarlatti & CPE Bach
Week 13: Composers known primarily for opera born 1600-1799 inc. Rossini, Gluck & Donizetti

*Q2*
Week 14: Composers born 1700-1724 plus Haydn works 1760-1783
Week 15: Composers born 1725-1732 plus Haydn works 1784-1803
Week 16: Composers born 1733-1739 plus Mozart works 1772-1779
Week 17: Composers born 1740-1749 plus Mozart works 1780-1785
Week 18: Composers born 1750-1759 plus Mozart works 1786-1791
Week 19: Composers born 1760-1769 plus Beethoven works 1795-1805
Week 20: Composers born 1770-1783 plus Beethoven works 1806-1811
Week 21: Composers born 1784-1794 plus Beethoven works 1812-1827
Week 22: Composers born 1795-1799 inc. Schubert
Week 23: Composers born 1800-1809 inc. Berlioz & Mendelssohn
Week 24: Composers born 1810 inc. Chopin & Schumann
Week 25: Composers born 1811-1819 inc. Liszt
Week 26: Composers known primarily for opera born 1800-1840 inc. Verdi, Wagner & Bellini

*Q3*
Week 27: Composers born 1820-1832 inc. Smetana, Bruckner & Franck
Week 28: Composers born 1833 inc. Brahms
Week 29: Composers born 1834-1839 inc. Bizet, Bruch, Saint-Saëns plus "The Big Five"
Week 30: Composers born 1840-1843 exc. Dvořák inc. Tchaikovsky & Grieg
Week 31: Composers born 1844-1849 plus Dvořák inc. Fauré
Week 32: Composers born 1850-1859 inc. Elgar & Janáček
Week 33: Composers born 1860-1862 inc. Debussy & Mahler
Week 34: Composers born 1864-1865 inc. Sibelius, Strauss R & Nielsen
Week 35: Composers born 1866-1872 inc. Satie & Scriabin
Week 36: Composers associated with the English Pastoral School inc. Vaughan Williams
Week 37: Composers born 1873-1875 inc. Rachmaninov & Ravel
Week 38: Composers born 1876-1879 plus those associated with the Second Viennese School inc. Berg & Schoenberg
Week 39: Composers known primarily for opera born 1841-1939 inc. Puccini & Massenet

*Q4*
Week 40: Composers born 1880-1884 exc. Stravinsky inc. Bartók, Kodály & Varèse
Week 41: Composers born 1885-1889 plus Stravinsky inc. Villa-Lobos
Week 42: Composers born 1890-1891 inc. Prokofiev & Martinů
Week 43: Composers born 1892-1897 inc. Hindemith plus all of "Les Six"
Week 44: Composers born 1898-1902 inc. Gershwin, Copland & Walton
Week 45: Composers born 1903-1906 inc. Shostakovich & Khachaturian
Week 46: Composers born 1907-1910 inc. Barber, Messiaen & Carter
Week 47: Composers born 1911-1916 inc. Britten & Cage
Week 48: Composers born 1917-1925 inc. Bernstein, Berio, Ligeti & Boulez
Week 49: Composers born 1926-1933 inc. Górecki, Penderecki & Stockhausen
Week 50: Composers born 1934-1939 inc. Reich, Pårt & Glass
Week 51: Composers born 1940-present inc. Adams, Saariaho & Tavener
Week 52: Composers of film, musical and games music inc. Bernstein, Williams, Morricone & Zimmer


----------



## Chilham

Just before signing-off on this thread, it may be helpful to some if I summarise the top recommended works regardless of era.

*Symphonies*:

*Level 1*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No. 9 "Choral"
Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich: Symphony No. 6 "Pathetique"
Berlioz, Hector: Symphonie Fantastique
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No. 5
Dvořák, Antonín: Symphony No. 9 "New World"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No. 3 "Eroica"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Symphony No. 41 "Jupiter"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No. 6 "Pastoral"
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 5
Brahms, Johannes: Symphony No. 4

*Level 2*
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 2 "Resurrection"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No. 7
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No. 8 "Unfinished"
Schubert, Franz: Symphony No. 9 "Great"
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 2
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 5
Mendelssohn, Felix: Symphony No. 4 "Italian"
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 9
Brahms, Johannes: Symphony No. 1
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 104 "London"
Prokofiev, Sergei: Symphony No. 1 "Classical"
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 10

*Level 3*
Prokofiev, Sergei: Symphony No. 5
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Symphony No. 40
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Symphony No. 3 "Organ"
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 8
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 1 "Titan"
Brahms, Johannes: Symphony No. 2
Dvořák, Antonín: Symphony No. 8
Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich: Symphony No. 5
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 7
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Symphony No. 38 "Prague"
Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich: Symphony No. 4
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 94 "Surprise"
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Symphony No. 2
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 6 "Tragic"
Brahms, Johannes: Symphony No. 3
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 3
Schumann, Robert: Symphony No. 3 "Rhenish"
Dvořák, Antonín: Symphony No. 7
Schumann, Robert: Symphony No. 4
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 101 "The Clock"
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 8 "Symphony Of A Thousand"
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 5
Mendelssohn, Felix: Symphony No. 3 "Scottish"
Messiaen, Olivier: Turangalîla-Symphonie
Bruckner, Anton: Symphony No. 4
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No. 8
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 103 "Drumroll"
Elgar, Edward: Symphony No. 1
Schumann, Robert: Symphony No. 2
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 102
Mahler, Gustav: Symphony No. 4
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 7
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Symphony No. 7 "Lenningrad"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No. 4
Hindemith, Paul: Mathis der Maler
Franck, César: Symphony in D
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No. 1
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 82 "The Bear"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 100 "Military"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Symphony No. 2
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Symphony No. 36 "Linz"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 85 "La Reine"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Symphony No. 86
Elgar, Edward: Symphony No. 2


----------



## Chilham

Other *Orchestral* works:

*Level 1*
Stravinsky, Igor: Rite of Spring
Debussy, Claude: La Mer
Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich: The Nutcracker Suite
Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich: Swan Lake
Prokofiev, Sergei: Romeo and Juliet
Gershwin, George: Rhapsody in Blue
Elgar, Edward: Enigma Variations

*Level 2*
Copland, Aaron: Appalachian Spring
Ravel, Maurice: Boléro
Holst, Gustav: The Planets
Stravinsky, Igor: L'Oiseau de Feu
Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich: Romeo and Juliet
Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich: Festival Overture "1812 Overture"
Debussy, Claude: Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un Faune
Rimsky-Korsakov, Nikolai: Schéhérazade
Mendelssohn, Felix: Midsummer Night's Dream
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini
Handel, Georg Frederic: Water Music
Saint-Saëns, Camille: Carnaval of Animals
Smetana, Bedřich: My Fatherland (Má Vlast)
Grieg, Edvard: Peer Gynt
Strauss, Richard: Also Sprach Zarathustra
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Serenade No. 13 "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik"
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Orchestral Suites
Sibelius, Jean: Finlandia
Stravinsky, Igor: Petrushka
Mendelssohn, Felix: Hebrides Overture
Gershwin, George: An American in Paris
Liszt, Franz: Hungarian Rhapsodies
Handel, Georg Frederic: Music for the Royal Fireworks
Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich: Sleeping Beauty

*Level 3*
Elgar, Edward: Pomp and Circumstance Marches Nos. 1-5
Bartók, Bela: Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta
Ravel, Maurice: La Valse
Prokofiev, Sergei: Peter and The Wolf
Dvořák, Antonín: Slavonic Dances
Janáček, Leoš: Sinfonietta
Mussorgsky, Modest: Night on the Bald Mountain
Villa-Lobos, Heitor: Bachianas Brasileiras
Ravel, Maurice: Rapsodie Espagnole
Reich, Steve: Music for 18 Musicians
Strauss, Richard: Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks
Debussy, Claude: Nocturnes for Orchestra
Copland, Aaron: Fanfare for the Common Man
Strauss, Richard: Ein Heldenleben
Britten, Benjamin: Young Person's Guide to The Orchestra
Delibes, Léo: Coppéllia
Debussy, Claude: Images for Orchestra
Respighi, Ottorino: Pines of Rome
Grieg, Edvard: Holberg Suite
Berg, Alban: Lyric Suite
Wagner, Richard: Siegfried - Idyll
Ives, Charles: Three Places in New England
de Falla, Manuel: El Sombrero de Tres Picos
Strauss, Richard: Don Juan
Khachaturian, Aram: Spartacus
Delius, Frederick: Brigg Fair
Williams, John: Star Wars


----------



## Chilham

*String Concertos*:

*Level 1*
Vivaldi, Antonio: Il Cimento Dell'Armonia e Dell'Inventione
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Brandenburg Concertos

*Level 2*
Elgar, Edward: Cello Concerto
Mendelssohn, Felix: Violin Concerto
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Concerto
Bruch, Max: Violin Concerto No. 1
Dvořák, Antonín: Cello Concerto
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Concerto for Two Violins, BWV 1043
Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich: Violin Concerto
Corelli, Arcangelo: Concerto Grosso
Sibelius, Jean: Violin Concerto
Berg, Alban: Violin Concerto
Ravel, Maurice: Piano Concerto

*Level 3*
Brahms, Johannes: Violin Concerto
Handel, Georg Frederic: Concerti Grossi Op. 6
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Sinfonia Concertante for Violin and Viola
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Cello Concerto No. 1
Vivaldi, Antonio: 12 Concerti Grossi "L'estro Armonico"
Bartók, Bela: Violin Concerto No. 2
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Violin Concerto No. 5 "Turkish"
Elgar, Edward: Violin Concerto


----------



## Chilham

*Keyboard Concertos*:

*Level 1*
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Piano Concerto No. 2
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Concerto No. 5 "Emperor"
Grieg, Edvard: Piano Concerto in A minor
Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich: Piano Concerto No. 1

*Level 2*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 21 "Elvira Madigan"
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Piano Concerto No. 3
Brahms, Johannes: Piano Concerto No. 2
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 20

*Level 3*
Prokofiev, Sergei: Piano Concerto No. 3
Brahms, Johannes: Piano Concerto No. 1
Schumann, Robert: Piano Concerto in A minor
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Concerto No. 4
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 24
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Concerto No. 23
Chopin, Frédéric: Piano Concerto No.1
Chopin, Frédéric: Piano Concerto No. 2
Gershwin, George: Piano Concerto in F
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Piano Concerto No. 2


*Wind Concertos*:

*Level 1*
No works
* 
Level 2*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Clarinet Concerto in A major
* 
Level 3*
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Trumpet Concerto in E flat major
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Horn Concerto No. 4


----------



## Chilham

I have the feeling that chamber music in general fared comparatively poorly within the recommended works. I don't know why that might be, whether my hunch is right or wrong.

*String Chamber*:

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartet No. 14
Barber, Samuel: String Quartet including the Adagio for Strings
Schubert, Franz: String Quintet in C major
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartet No. 7 "Razumovsky Quartets"
Schubert, Franz: String Quartet No. 14 "Death & the Maiden"

*Level 3*
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartet No. 13 & Grosse Fugue
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 76 "Erdödy"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartet no. 15
Schoenberg, Arnold: Verklärte Nacht
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartet No. 9 "Razumovsky Quartets"
Messiaen, Olivier: Quatuor pour la fin du Temps
Dvořák, Antonín: String Quartet No. 12 'American'
Debussy, Claude: String Quartet in G minor
Mendelssohn, Felix: String Octet
Beethoven, Ludwig van: String Quartet No. 8 "Razumovsky Quartets"
Haydn, Franz Joseph: String Quartet Op. 76 "Erdödy"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: String Quartet "Haydn" No. 19 "Dissonance"
Shostakovich, Dmitri: String Quartet No. 8
Ravel, Maurice: String Quartet in F
Pachelbel, Johann: Canon and Gigue in D
Boccherini, Luigi: String Quintet in E Major


----------



## Chilham

*Keyboard Chamber*:

*Level 1*
Schubert, Franz: Piano Quintet in A major "Trout"

*Level 2*
No works

*Level 3*
Brahms, Johannes: Piano Quintet in F minor
Schumann, Robert: Piano Quintet in E-Flat Major
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Trio No. 7 "Archduke"
Schubert, Franz: Piano Trio No. 2
Mendelssohn, Felix: Piano Trio No. 1
Brahms, Johannes: Piano Trio No. 1


*Wind Chamber*:

*Level 1*
No works
* 
Level 2*
No works
* 
Level 3*
Brahms, Johannes: Clarinet Quintet
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Clarinet Quintet


----------



## Chilham

Solo and *String Sonatas*:

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cello Suites
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin BWV 1001-1006
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Violin Sonata No. 9 "Kreutzer"

*Level 3*
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Lark Ascending (and orchestral version)
Paganini, Niccolò: 24 Caprice
Franck, César: Violin Sonata in A major
Tartini, Giuseppe: Violin Sonata "Devil's Trill"


----------



## Chilham

Solo and *Keyboard Sonatas*:

*Level 1*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Clavier-Übung IV: Goldberg Variations
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 14 "Moonlight"

*Level 2*
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 1
Mussorgsky, Modest: Pictures at an Exhibition
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Well-Tempered Clavier Book 2
Liszt, Franz: Piano Sonata in B minor
Chopin, Frédéric: Nocturnes
Chopin, Frederic: 24 Preludes
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin
Debussy, Claude: Préludes Book 1
Chopin, Frédéric: Ballades
Satie, Erik: Trois Gymnopédies

*Level 3*
Debussy, Claude: Preludes Book 2
Debussy, Claude: Suite Bergamasque
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 8 "Pathétique"
Bach, Johann Sebastian: The Art of Fugue
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 21 "Waldstein"
Schumann, Robert: Kinderszenen Op. 15
Schumann, Robert: Kreisleriana
Chopin, Frédéric: Waltzes
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 32
Chopin, Frédéric: Mazurkas
Schumann, Robert: Carnaval
Rachmaninoff, Sergei: Preludes
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 29 "Hammerklavier"
Schubert, Franz: Piano Sonata No. 21
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 23 "Appassionata"
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Piano Sonata No. 30
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Toccata and Fugue in D minor
Schubert, Franz: Impromptus D.899/D.935
Schumann, Robert: Fantasie in C major Op. 17
Brahms, Johannes: Klavierstücke op. 118
Chopin, Frédéric: Piano Sonata No. 2 "Marche funèbre"
Ravel, Maurice: Gaspard de la Nuit
Albéniz, Isaac: Iberia
Ravel, Maurice: Le Tombeau de Couperin
Brahms, Johannes: Klavierstücke op. 117
Chopin, Frédéric: Polonaises
Chopin, Frédéric: Études Op. 10
Brahms, Johannes: Klavierstücke op. 119
Satie, Erik: Gnossiennes
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Bagatelle No. 25 "Für Elise"
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Piano Sonata No. 11


----------



## Chilham

*Lieder, Madrigals* etc.:

*Level 1*
No works

*Level 2*
Schubert, Franz: Winterreise
Strauss, Richard: Vier Letzte Lieder
Mahler, Gustav: Das Lied von der Erde
Schumann, Robert: Dichterliebe

*Level 3*
Schubert, Franz: Die Schöne Müllerin
Monteverdi, Claudio: Madrigals Book VIII
Schubert, Franz: Gretchen at the Spinning Wheel
Schubert, Franz: Goethe Lieder "Der Erlkönig" 
Schubert, Franz: Goethe Lieder "Ganymed" 
Schubert, Franz: Goethe Lieder "Wanderers Nachtlied I", "Geheimes", "Der Musensohn", "Willkommen und Abschied"


----------



## Chilham

*Mass, Oratorio, Chant* etc.

*Level 1*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Messiah
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Mass in B Minor
Bach, Johann Sebastian: St. Matthew Passion
Brahms, Johannes: Ein Deutsches Requiem
Verdi, Giuseppe: Requiem Mass

*Level 2*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus/Süssmayr, Franz Xaver: Requiem
Orff, Carl: Carmna Burana
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi da: Missa Papae Marcelli
Vivaldi, Antonio: Gloria in D major
Guillaume de Machaut: Messe de Notre Dame
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Die Schöpfung "The Creation"

*Level 3*
Fauré, Gabriel: Requiem
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Missa Solemnis
Tallis, Thomas: Spem in Alium
Monteverdi, Claudio: Vespro della Beata Vergine (Vespers of 1610)
Bach, Johann Sebastian: Cantata BWV 140 Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme
Josquin des Prez: Missa Pange Lingua
Berlioz, Hector: Requiem "Grande Messe des Morts"
Britten, Benjamin: War Requiem
Haydn, Franz Joseph: Mass No. 11 "Missa in Angustiis", "Lord Nelson Mass"
Handel, Georg Frederic: Solomon
Pérotin: Viderunt Omnes
Allegri, Gregorio: Miserere
Berlioz, Hector: La Damnation de Faust
Mendelssohn, Felix: Elijah
Carissimi, Giacomo: Jephte


----------



## Chilham

And finally, *Opera*, Operetta and Musical:

*Level 1*
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Die Zauberflöte
Bizet, Georges : Carmen
Puccini, Giacomo: La Bohème
Wagner, Richard: Der Ring des Nimbelungun ii. Die Walküre
Verdi, Giuseppe: La Traviata
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Le Nozze di Figaro
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Don Giovanni
Rossini, Gioachino: Il Barbiere di Siviglia
Wagner, Richard: Der Ring des Nimbelungun i. Das Rheingold
Wagner, Richard: Tristan und Isolde
Verdi, Giuseppe: Rigoletto

*Level 2*
Wagner, Richard: Der Ring des Nimbelungun iii. Siegfried
Wagner, Richard: Der Ring des Nimbelungun iv. Götterdämmerung
Purcell, Henry: Dido and Aeneas
Puccini, Giacomo: Tosca
Bernstein, Leonard: West Side Story
Beethoven, Ludwig van: Fidelio
Monteverdi, Claudio: L'Orfeo
Verdi, Giuseppe: Aida
Verdi, Giuseppe: Otello
Gluck, Christoph Willibald: Orfeo ed Euridice
Gershwin, George: Porgy and Bess
Debussy, Claude: Pelléas et Mélisande
Strauss, Richard: Der Rosenkavalier
Britten, Benjamin: Peter Grimes

*Level 3*
Handel, Georg Frederic: Giulio Cesare
Puccini, Giacomo: Madame Butterfly
Wagner, Richard: Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Wagner, Richard: Tannhäuser
Bellini, Vincenzo: Norma
Delibes, Léo: Lakmé
Rossini, Gioachino: Guillaume Tell
Monteverdi, Claudio: L' Incoronazione di Poppea
Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich: Eugene Onegin
Berg, Alban: Wozzeck
Wagner, Richard: Parsifal
Puccini, Giacomo: Turandot
Mascagni, Pietro: Cavalleria Rusticana
Wagner, Richard: Der Fliegende Hollander
Smetana, Bedrich: The Bartered Bride
Strauss, Richard: Salome
Shostakovich, Dmitri: Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District
Offenbach, Jacques: Les contes d'Hoffmann
Borodin, Alexander: Prinz Igor
Verdi, Giuseppe: Falstaff
Verdi, Giuseppe: Il Trovatore
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: Così Fan Tutte
Wagner, Richard: Lohengrin
Berlioz, Hector: Les Troyens
Glinka, Mikhail: Ruslan and Lyudmila
Leoncavallo, Ruggero: Pagliacci
Massenet, Olivier: Manon


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## Chilham

It's done. 20 posts and over 1,000 views per week. 

*Q1*
Week 1a: Early Music & Ars Antiqua inc. Hildegard von Bingen, Pérotin & Léonin
Week 1b: Composers born 1300-1399 inc. Machaut, Dufay & Dunstaple
Week 2: Composers born 1400-1466 inc. Josquin & Ockeghem
Week 3: Composers born 1467-1533 inc. Palestrina, Tallis & Lassus
Week 4: Composers born 1534-1567 inc. Monteverdi, Dowland & Byrd
Week 5: Composers born 1568-1599 inc. Allegri, Schütz & Praetorius
Week 6: Composers born 1600-1633 inc. Carissimi, Lully & Strozzi
Week 7: Composers born 1634-1666 inc. Purcell, Corelli & Biber
Week 8: Composers born 1667-1681 inc. Vivaldi, Couperin & Telemann
Week 9: Composers born 1681-1685 inc. Handel & Rameau
Week 10: Composers born 1685-1695 inc. JS Bach pre-Leipzig
Week 11: Composers born 1696-1699 inc. JS Bach in Leipzig
Week 12: Composers from the Baroque to Classical transition inc. Tartini, Scarlatti & CPE Bach
Week 13: Composers known primarily for opera born 1600-1799 inc. Rossini, Gluck & Donizetti

*Q2*
Week 14: Composers born 1700-1724 plus Haydn works 1760-1783
Week 15: Composers born 1725-1732 plus Haydn works 1784-1803
Week 16: Composers born 1733-1739 plus Mozart works 1772-1779
Week 17: Composers born 1740-1749 plus Mozart works 1780-1785
Week 18: Composers born 1750-1759 plus Mozart works 1786-1791
Week 19: Composers born 1760-1769 plus Beethoven works 1795-1805
Week 20: Composers born 1770-1783 plus Beethoven works 1806-1811
Week 21: Composers born 1784-1794 plus Beethoven works 1812-1827
Week 22: Composers born 1795-1799 inc. Schubert
Week 23: Composers born 1800-1809 inc. Berlioz & Mendelssohn
Week 24: Composers born 1810 inc. Chopin & Schumann
Week 25: Composers born 1811-1819 inc. Liszt
Week 26: Composers known primarily for opera born 1800-1840 inc. Verdi, Wagner & Bellini

*Q3*
Week 27: Composers born 1820-1832 inc. Smetana, Bruckner & Franck
Week 28: Composers born 1833 inc. Brahms
Week 29: Composers born 1834-1839 inc. Bizet, Bruch, Saint-Saëns plus "The Big Five"
Week 30: Composers born 1840-1843 exc. Dvořák inc. Tchaikovsky & Grieg
Week 31: Composers born 1844-1849 plus Dvořák inc. Fauré
Week 32: Composers born 1850-1859 inc. Elgar & Janáček
Week 33: Composers born 1860-1862 inc. Debussy & Mahler
Week 34: Composers born 1864-1865 inc. Sibelius, Strauss R & Nielsen
Week 35: Composers born 1866-1872 inc. Satie & Scriabin
Week 36: Composers associated with the English Pastoral School inc. Vaughan Williams
Week 37: Composers born 1873-1875 inc. Rachmaninov & Ravel
Week 38: Composers born 1876-1879 plus those associated with the Second Viennese School inc. Berg & Schoenberg
Week 39: Composers known primarily for opera born 1841-1939 inc. Puccini & Massenet

*Q4*
Week 40: Composers born 1880-1884 exc. Stravinsky inc. Bartók, Kodály & Varèse
Week 41: Composers born 1885-1889 plus Stravinsky inc. Villa-Lobos
Week 42: Composers born 1890-1891 inc. Prokofiev & Martinů
Week 43: Composers born 1892-1897 inc. Hindemith plus all of "Les Six"
Week 44: Composers born 1898-1902 inc. Gershwin, Copland & Walton
Week 45: Composers born 1903-1906 inc. Shostakovich & Khachaturian
Week 46: Composers born 1907-1910 inc. Barber, Messiaen & Carter
Week 47: Composers born 1911-1916 inc. Britten & Cage
Week 48: Composers born 1917-1925 inc. Bernstein, Berio, Ligeti & Boulez
Week 49: Composers born 1926-1933 inc. Górecki, Penderecki & Stockhausen
Week 50: Composers born 1934-1939 inc. Reich, Pårt & Glass
Week 51: Composers born 1940-present inc. Adams, Saariaho & Tavener
Week 52: Composers of film, musical and games music inc. Bernstein, Williams, Morricone & Zimmer


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## pianozach

Chilham said:


> And finally, *Opera*, Operetta and Musical:


*Sir Arthur Sullivan* really resented that his popularity was due to his non-serious operettas with _W.S. Gilbert_, and not as a "_serious_" composer. 14 very successful _Operettas_, and in spite of their brilliance, don't get mentioned a century later, not even as _"Tier 3" _worthy.

After their partnership was over Sullivan finally had the opportunity to write a Grand Opera, titled *IVANHOE*, a well-received work that was largely _forgotten_ after its successful and critically acclaimed record 1891 run of 155 consecutive performances and 6 more encore performances 6 months later.

While considered _"one of the most important works in the history of British opera"_, it's rarely revived, and a complete, fully professional recording wasn't even made until 2010. There are reasons for this: it sounds dated nowadays, and the librettist left out major plot points (at the time they weren't needed, as every Brit knew every detail of the story of *Ivanhoe*: As most folks are not very familiar with that story these days, the narrative cannot be follow without doing your homework first).

Of course, most of the *Gilbert & Sullivan* operettas continue to be performed regularly, and their influence on opera modern musical theatre especially are quite large. *HMS Pinafore, The Pirates of Penzance*, and *The Mikado* are incredibly popular.


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