# bad opera



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

On another board today, someone refered to "bad opera." I'm wondering what that is? 

What operas do you regard as "bad opera"? 

(I know this might be a bit sensitive. Let's be polite to each other!)


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Usually, this boils down to one simple thing when it comes to bad opera, just like any other "bads": crap music. The other ingredient that is important of course, concerns the opera's plot and story; however, this is a feature that is often forgiven if the music is good. Indeed, there are many, many operas with bad/weak plots, or simply ridiculous story lines that are just plain silly, but the music is so glorious that many would still find the opera entirely enjoyable. From Monteverdi to today, you can easily find operas with bad plots. But if the music is crap, then you are surely to say the opera is crap. Worst of all, an opera with a great plot but ruined by crap music is surely unforgivable.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Usually, this boils down to one simple thing when it comes to bad opera, just like any other "bads": crap music. The other ingredient that is important of course, concerns the opera's plot and story; however, this is a feature that is often forgiven if the music is good. Indeed, there are many, many operas with bad/weak plots, or simply ridiculous story lines that are just plain silly, but the music is so glorious that many would still find the opera entirely enjoyable. From *Monteverdi to today*, you can easily find operas with bad plots. But if the music is crap, then you are surely to say the opera is crap. Worst of all, an opera with a great plot but ruined by crap music is surely unforgivable.


Monteverdi, bad plots? An eternal greek myth, part of the Odyssey, and a great mix of politics & sex, nothing wrong with any of them. Let's start a bit later.

Much as I love him, some of Handel's are just unbelievably bewildering.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Monteverdi, bad plots? An eternal greek myth, part of the Odyssey, and a great mix of politics & sex, nothing wrong with any of them. Let's start a bit later.
> 
> Much as I love him, some of Handel's are just unbelievably bewildering.


Are you referring to the plot of Handel's operas or the music, or both? Reading your sentence again, you are probably suggesting the plot. Baroque opera (yes, referring to a bit later then Monteverdi, you are right) often has many examples of bad plots/convoluted story lines; pre-requisite knowledge of the plot, so to speak (as the plot were often based on ancient history and or myth), which many amongst the Baroque audience would have understood, but mostly not so amongst today's audience.

Music wise, my avatar's fail no ears.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

science said:


> On another board today, someone refered to "bad opera." I'm wondering what that is?
> 
> What operas do you regard as "bad opera"?


There have been composed over 40.000 operas, only a few hundred of them are staged or recorded on a regular or semi-regular basis, so the really bad ones are no doubt to be found in that group of thousands that are now completely ignored.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I can't ever recall hearing a 'bad' opera as such - from my experience they are more likely to suffer from bad libretti rather than bad music.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

science said:


> On another board today, someone refered to "bad opera." I'm wondering what that is?
> 
> What operas do you regard as "bad opera"?
> 
> (I know this might be a bit sensitive. Let's be polite to each other!)


There is a thread about operas we don't like; if you browse the forum pages you'll find it. Some examples can be found there, but like Gaston (jhar26) said, it's more likely that we'll find bad operas among the 38,000-39,000 forgotten ones than the 1,000-2,000 that have survived, and even less likely to find them among the 200 or so that are repeatedly staged.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks for your responses. The hesitance to "name names" is interesting. I don't blame you for it, I can't answer the question myself. I like most of the operas I've ever watched or heard, and the ones that I don't like are probably just beyond me.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

science said:


> Thanks for your responses. The hesitance to "name names" is interesting. I don't blame you for it, I can't answer the question myself. I like most of the operas I've ever watched or heard, and the ones that I don't like are probably just beyond me.


It's not hesitance. I just didn't want to think hard at the time, and directed you to that thread where you'll find several names named.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

'Bad opera' is a bit like saying 'hot fire', 'smelly parmesan cheese' or 'whinging scousers'.

Carry on.:tiphat:


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

Argus said:


> 'Bad opera' is a bit like saying 'hot fire', 'smelly parmesan cheese' or 'whinging scousers'.
> 
> Carry on.:tiphat:


:lol::lol::lol:


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> It's not hesitance. I just didn't want to think hard at the time, and directed you to that thread where you'll find several names named.


Well-explained. I didn't mean it as an accusation or anything. I'll find the thread. Thanks for mentioning it!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Are you referring to the plot of Handel's operas or the music, or both? Reading your sentence again, you are probably suggesting the plot. Baroque opera (yes, referring to a bit later then Monteverdi, you are right) often has many examples of bad plots/convoluted story lines; pre-requisite knowledge of the plot, so to speak (as the plot were often based on ancient history and or myth), which many amongst the Baroque audience would have understood, but mostly not so amongst today's audience.
> 
> Music wise, my avatar's fail no ears.


Sorry for the incoherence, posted last thing at night, I did of course mean the plot of Handel's operas, not the music. And of course you're right about the decline of knowledge about ancient history and myth.

Some of the bel canto opera plots, now...

With regard to bad opera, there is only one I've seen which I thought deserved its previous obscurity and that was Galuppi's L'Olympiade. But it wasn't really bad, more just a succession of pleasant but interminable and indistinguishable da capo arias. Baroque lift music.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Not very good reasoning*



> There have been composed over 40.000 operas, only a few hundred of them are staged or recorded on a regular or semi-regular basis, so the really bad ones are no doubt to be found in that group of thousands that are now completely ignored.


Many great operas weren't recorded often...may reasons, often political reasons...Hitler, etc. Schreker and Zemlinsky are examples...Now we are rediscovering them...Bad operas? THIS IS RIDICULOUS.... Just operas you like and operas YOU DON'T like. As simple as that! To like or not to like, that is the question. PLEASE AVOID QUALIFYING A WORK AS BAD... Just say I don't like it! I do so.

Martin
Life is a comedy


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Many great operas weren't recorded often...may reasons, often political reasons...Hitler, etc. Schreker and Zemlinsky are examples...Now we are rediscovering them...
> 
> Martin
> Life is a comedy


Yes, but I agree with that. I'm sure that there are good operas that are unfairly ignored. But I also think that those 200 or so that make up the core repertoire are really good. Otherwise they wouldn't have made it this far.


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

A couple of years ago I went to a performance of the last G&S opera, The Grand Duke. I now know why it is hardly ever staged. No memorable tunes and an incomprehensible plot.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Moderators should...*



> Yes, but I agree with that. I'm sure that there are good operas that are unfairly ignored. But I also think that those 200 or so that make up the core repertoire are really good. Otherwise they wouldn't have made it this far


Moderators should BAN the word BAD from every thread! What is BAD for you it is maybe GOOD for me!

Look at the site about the sexiest bass, baritons, etc...Nobody agrees...LOL And this is COMPLETELY normal... I still don't understand the "discussion" there, I guess you're doing it "just for fun"...I am sure of that. For me Traviata was good, now it is bad...but FOR ME!!!!! I know many people will call me abnormal....maybe I am...as I said before (and a girl believed that) I have Alzheimer....(Alzheimer...my a...) LOL

_There are not bad operas, just bad listeners..._ (Martin Pitchon said that to become immortal...LOL)

Martin


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Moderators should BAN the word BAD from every thread! What is BAD for you it is maybe GOOD for me!


I'm bad, I'm bad, you know it.

Shamone!


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Chris said:


> A couple of years ago I went to a performance of the last G&S opera, The Grand Duke. I now know why it is hardly ever staged. No memorable tunes and an incomprehensible plot.


Succintly put. We have an example of a very bad opera from Australia. The composer is Larry Sitsky (born 1934), professor of music at one of our music schools.

Biography: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Sitsky.

The bad opera of his is _The Golem_ (1980), staged only once here in Australia during its premiere in 1993. I remember listening to it on radio and there was hardly any music but bits of weird sounding crap, and when there was music, it sounded like Jewish folk tunes (no, I'm not making a derogatory comment about Jewish folk tunes but reporting about the music of _The Golem_). The critics killed it and audiences walked out of the premiere, which do not necessarily by any means show a piece was bad, but really, it was just plain crap music.


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Succintly put. We have an example of a very bad opera from Australia. The composer is Larry Sitsky (born 1934), professor of music at one of our music schools.
> 
> Biography: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Sitsky.
> 
> The bad opera of his is _The Golem_ (1980), staged only once here in Australia during its premiere in 1993. I remember listening to it on radio and there was hardly any music but bits of weird sounding crap, and when there was music, it sounded like Jewish folk tunes (no, I'm not making a derogatory comment about Jewish folk tunes but reporting about the music of _The Golem_). The critics killed it and audiences walked out of the premiere, which do not necessarily by any means show a piece was bad, but really, it was just plain crap music.


Unfortunately (maybe that's not the word :lol there don't seem to be any clips of _The Golem _on Youtube


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

If the plot had anything to do with it, let's face it, most opera that is now lauded would be completely ignored. Although if we take music as being the dominant force in good opera... um.

I don't get it.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Argus said:


> 'Bad opera' is a bit like saying 'hot fire', 'smelly parmesan cheese' or 'whinging scousers'.
> 
> Carry on.:tiphat:


Attention, folks - this member confessedly likes to wind up others and in his own words, to "insult" others' musical preferences to then savor the reaction for the sake of his "forum hijinks" (these are literal quotes from his posts). I don't think that most people here go to the fora dedicated to *his* preferred music to say that, I don't know, bad progressive rock or whatever he likes is a bit like saying "hot fire" etc, so, don't mind what he says, he just wants to get a reaction from us. Once caught, he says "it was just tongue-in-cheek." He calls himself a "wind up merchant." I call him a troll.

[Alma, doing a public utility announcement]


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

Argus said:


> 'whinging scousers'.


gerraway ya woollieback ya cudden kick an ole in a wet ekker


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2011)

Well, I think we all agree on how important it is to listen only to music that is board-certified.

And even more important to _avoid_ listening to music that is not! Think of the consequences of listening to music that HC, for instance, characterizes as "crap." Oh, the horror! It would usher in the apocalypse for sure. Most people in the world would die hideous deaths and the survivors would all have unsightly dandruff.

So we should continue our vital mission to warn people away from bad music whenever and wherever we can. The future of the world is at stake.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Well, I think we all agree on how important it is to listen only to music that is board-certified.



> And even more important to avoid listening to music that is not! Think of the consequences of listening to music that HC, for instance, characterizes as "crap." Oh, the horror! It would usher in the apocalypse for sure. Most people in the world would die hideous deaths and the survivors would all have unsightly dandruff.
> 
> So we should continue our vital mission to warn people away from bad music whenever and wherever we can. The future of the world is at stake.


Please explain what is board-certified music.....I don't understand...and certtified by whom? By "experts" on what?

Martin, curious


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2011)

"Board-certified" refers in English to part of the process for making sure doctors are well-trained, that they have the skills necessary to do their jobs right.

Music discussion groups are called "boards."

Put them together to get a nice little joke about making sure all music listening is approved by TC members.


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

some guy said:


> Well, I think we all agree on how important it is to listen only to music that is board-certified.
> 
> And even more important to _avoid_ listening to music that is not! Think of the consequences of listening to music that HC, for instance, characterizes as "crap." Oh, the horror! It would usher in the apocalypse for sure. Most people in the world would die hideous deaths and the survivors would all have unsightly dandruff.
> 
> So we should continue our vital mission to warn people away from bad music whenever and wherever we can. The future of the world is at stake.


We get it. You are so achingly postmodern and hate value judgements of any kind. How about you just say what you mean (all music is the same, there is no 'good' or 'bad') and then we can agree to disagree?


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2011)

As long as you're happy slapping labels on things to satisfy your needs....

Just by the way, in case anyone is interested, I am not achingly postmodern, I do not hate value judgments of any kind, and I do not think all music is the same.

Indeed, it might be that I value valuable value judgments, so I sometimes argue against, sometimes simply mock, value judgments I think are bad. Yes. It could be that.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Just remember that when Bizet's now ever so popular & legendary _Carmen_ was premiered in Paris in the 1870's, critics labelled it as vulgar and woeful. It is a tragedy that Bizet died before it became accepted only a short while later. So ultimately I think this is a highly subjective thing, as Martin & some guy have kind of pointed out, one man's trash is another man's treasure (but often it probably turns out to be a treasure).

& lighten up, Almaviva, Argus is not a troll, but he is pretty provocative sometimes, I must admit. But that's ok, as most of the members of this forum are pretty conservative, so a few feathers being ruffled is probably a good (stimulating?) thing, no?...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Andre said:


> Just remember that when Bizet's now ever so popular & legendary _Carmen_ was premiered in Paris in the 1870's, critics labelled it as vulgar and woeful. It is a tragedy that Bizet died before it became accepted only a short while later. So ultimately I think this is a highly subjective thing, as Martin & some guy have kind of pointed out, one man's trash is another man's treasure (but often it probably turns out to be a treasure).
> 
> & lighten up, Almaviva, Argus is not a troll, but he is pretty provocative sometimes, I must admit. But that's ok, as most of the members of this forum are pretty conservative, so a few feathers being ruffled is probably a good (stimulating?) thing, no?...


Excellent example, Andre, and not the only one... Berlioz was also belittled during his lifetime... La Traviata had a bad première... A critic said La Bohème would certainly be forgotten... The history of music is full of such wrong prognoses. I think it is more appropriate to talk about operas we don't like, than "bad" operas. And our own tastes can evolve. My first encounter with Lulu was a disaster, and now I love it.

About Argus, Andre, please follow me a little here: a person goes and says very literally that he loves to insult others' musical preferences in order to enjoy their reaction and he does it for kicks, and then I see him doing just that more than once or twice; what else would you expect me to think about his intentions? It sounds rather trollish to me, so I was just warning others here. He is not a regular here in the Opera forum, he gets the words "bad opera" from the thread title and immediately jumps in to belittle opera... kind of one of his very first participations in the opera forum - and this, having said elsewhere with his own words what I have quoted. Suspicious, no?

Have you seen those folks who lurk on IMDb and participate of various threads of fans of certain movies, just to say "this movie is crap" - no other valid discussion or reasons or anything, just deliberately going to an environment of fans to put down what they like and wind them up... what do you call this kind of person? I personally call him/her a troll, it's as simple as that.

So, I've seen Argus throwing into a discussion of opera lovers a statement like this: "opera is rubbish" (again, an exact quote - no other reason, explanation, or argument). Tell me, is this helpful to a discussion? Opera is of course a vast universe... 400 years and still kicking... 40,000 operas composed. Can *anyone* actually make such a sweeping statement and be serious about it? Certainly some operas are rubbish... but "opera is rubbish," like all of opera, with no other argument in favor of his idea... just throwing it out there like this in the middle of a discussion by and with opera lovers... doesn't sound trollish to you?

I don't expect everybody to love opera. But one could say something like "opera is not for me; while some have beautiful music, I find that most of them are too long and often have unlikely plots; besides, the operatic singing technique doesn't agree with my ears," etc, etc. This, I can respect. But "opera is rubbish" just for the sake of insulting a discussion group, it's called trolling.

OK, so, you know him better, I trust your judgment, you're saying he's not a troll, I'll take your word for it. But he surely does act like one at least certain times... which as it happens, turn out to be *all* the times I've seen him around. So if he's got any interest in not being seen as a troll, *a good idea would be to stop acting like one*.

As long as his contributions to an opera forum are exclusively stuff like "opera is rubbish" and "bad opera is a bit like saying hot fire," sorry, but don't expect me to respect his opinions or his stance.


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

Oh come on, Almaviva. Argus made a joke that was actually pretty funny, and you could have just ignored him if you wanted to.

Besides, if you ask me, he is by far one of the most interesting people here.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*There are some people here*

who like to JUDGE....I call that judgemental people...

The pot call the kettle black! We are sometimes victims of this kind of people...The remedy: ignore them...They like to brag...but don't listen to them.

Sincerely,

Martin


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Il Seraglio said:


> We get it. You [i.e. *some guy*] are so achingly postmodern and hate value judgements of any kind. How about you just say what you mean (all music is the same, there is no 'good' or 'bad') and then we can agree to disagree?


I hate these insult-trading episodes and try to avoid them, but mere justice compels me to say that actually, no one who reads *some guy*'s invariably intelligent and insightful posts carefully could justify calling him 'achingly postmodern', or believe that he 'hates value judgements of any kind', or that 'all music is the same'. His post was, it's true, a sarcastic one; he was, it's true, poking a bit of fun at those of us who are too certain of our value judgements, and unadventurous in our tastes. But speaking purely personally, I'd rather be made gentle fun of by someone whose understanding is so wide and deep, than be approved of by someone who understands nothing beyond self-imposed and heavily blinkered boundaries.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Excellent example, Andre, and not the only one... Berlioz was also belittled during his lifetime... La Traviata had a bad première... A critic said La Bohème would certainly be forgotten... The history of music is full of such wrong prognoses. I think it is more appropriate to talk about operas we don't like, than "bad" operas. And our own tastes can evolve. My first encounter with Lulu was a disaster, and now I love it.
> 
> About Argus, Andre, please follow me a little here: a person goes and says very literally that he loves to insult others' musical preferences in order to enjoy their reaction and he does it for kicks, and then I see him doing just that more than once or twice; what else would you expect me to think about his intentions? It sounds rather trollish to me, so I was just warning others here. He is not a regular here in the Opera forum, he gets the words "bad opera" from the thread title and immediately jumps in to belittle opera... kind of one of his very first participations in the opera forum - and this, having said elsewhere with his own words what I have quoted. Suspicious, no?
> 
> ...


Relax. No need to be a Sensitive Sally. Like Jacob said, if you don't find me funny, just ignore me.

You obviously haven't been in enough discussions with me to know about my staunch relativist stance or my feelings about criticism and value judgements. Therefore, you don't understand the context of me calling opera rubbish. Which it is.

Even the man from the Wirral didn't mind the cheeky scouser dig.



Chris said:


> gerraway ya woollieback ya cudden kick an ole in a wet ekker





Almaviva said:


> Attention, folks - this member confessedly likes to wind up others and in his own words, to "insult" others' musical preferences to then savor the reaction for the sake of his "forum hijinks" (these are literal quotes from his posts). I don't think that most people here go to the fora dedicated to *his* preferred music to say that, I don't know, bad *progressive rock *or whatever he likes is a bit like saying "hot fire" etc, so, don't mind what he says, he just wants to get a reaction from us. Once caught, he says "it was just tongue-in-cheek." He calls himself a "wind up merchant." I call him a troll.


Why take a guess that I like progressive rock? Why not use my avatar as a hint at a band I _may_ happen to like, and insult them, like StLukes usually does? Go ahead, I don't mind.


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

some guy said:


> As long as you're happy slapping labels on things to satisfy your needs....
> 
> Just by the way, in case anyone is interested, I am not achingly postmodern, I do not hate value judgments of any kind, and I do not think all music is the same.
> 
> Indeed, it might be that I value valuable value judgments, so I sometimes argue against, sometimes simply mock, value judgments I think are bad. Yes. It could be that.


Maybe 'crap music = crap opera' is a bit of a prosaic way of putting it, but it's not as if anybody is naming names here or dismissing eachother's tastes. Are you saying it's a sweeping generalisation? If so, could you recommend me a worthwhile opera with a poor score?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Jacob Singer said:


> Oh come on, Almaviva. Argus made a joke that was actually pretty funny, and you could have just ignored him if you wanted to.
> 
> Besides, if you ask me, he is by far one of the most interesting people here.


OK, then. I'll try to relax.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Argus said:


> Relax. No need to be a Sensitive Sally. Like Jacob said, if you don't find me funny, just ignore me.


OK, I'll relax.:tiphat:



> You obviously haven't been in enough discussions with me to know about my staunch relativist stance or my feelings about criticism and value judgements. Therefore, you don't understand the context of me calling opera rubbish. Which it is.


I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and pay more attention to your posts. Like I said, I can respect discordant opinions about opera, as long as they are issued with an interesting discussion in mind and not just to wind up opera lovers.



> Even the man from the Wirral didn't mind the cheeky scouser dig.


Well, as an Arsenal fan, that part I did find funny!:tiphat:



> Why take a guess that I like progressive rock? Why not use my avatar as a hint at a band I _may_ happen to like, *and insult them*, like StLukes usually does? *Go ahead, I don't mind*.


You may not mind it, but from my end, I don't get a kick out of insulting others' musical preferences, so, thanks, but no, thanks.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*I am sorry to ask...*

But I am here to talk about music...Why so often I see that discussions become personal here? Can we talk in an objective way, giving OUR opinions and saying rather *I* *THINK...*instead of *IT IS or IT IS NOT*? These are the origins of every war in this messy world and I don't want more hostility!

I'd say like the Beatles said once: PEACE!

Smiling

:tiphat:

Martin


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