# Single Round: Norma Trio CALLAS, STIGNANI AND PICCHI.RADVANOVSKY,  DIDONATO, CALLEJA. SUTHERLAND, HORNE, ALEXANDER



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

To me this is one of the most exciting vocals in all of opera with such thrilling music. This is my only trio but I thought you would love it as well. I wish I could have used the Callas with Corelli but the sound was bad. Remember to vote for the best team. I included the best from three different decades. It is so packed with great music it seems like it is twice as long as it is the the scene is not much over 3 minutes.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

In general Callas of course rules in Norma, but unlike the rest of the opera to me the Sutherland and Callas trios are really really close in overall fabulousness, but I love Alexander and Horne in this and although Callas nails the top note at the end Sutherland's D5 is one of the great notes in the history of opera to me. The size and overall beauty of the tone is better to me than her high notes from the Art of the Prima Donna even. Corelli could have tipped the balance to Callas in this but the sound quality is just not good enough. I was surprised how well I enjoyed the Radvanovsky group and her top D was quite wonderful. Her tenor Calleja is golden age in style.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Why is Adalgisa being manhandled by both Pollione and Norma? And then thrown to the ground by Norma. 

Radvanovsky is even more soft grained than Sutherland and her diction is also not clear, but actually better than when she sang it in San Francisco.
And why is Norma lighting candles in the middle of a heated argument?

I feel the traditional cuts in *Norma* actually keep the momentum going on the trio, whereas the uncut versions seem to make a mess out if everyone’s contribution, and the various lines for each principal add a bit of confusion.

It’s good to have all of these videos with the *Norma*s of their time, but I’m going to vote for the best of the bunch, with the most spectacular high D !


----------



## Dogville (Dec 28, 2021)

It's funny that you posted this now considering I've spent the last week listening to the Callas CG Norma. (Just as a side-note, has there ever been such a beautiful vocal blend in this opera as Callas and Stignani? I think not.) I do wish you had gone with the Trieste 1953 Norma -bad sound and all- as I find Callas is even more fired up there in the trio and Corelli stands up to her far better than Picchi, who is perfectly adequate on his own terms I suppose but an unbalanced match against Maria in full-on Amazonian mode. In any case, the rage in Callas' singing here is thrilling, and she does it with The Voice 1952. The D6 sounds like it's coming straight from the middle voice. This is the clear winner.

I was stuck on the other two. I like Calleja and DiDonato more than I do Horne  and Alexander, but Sondra's voice REALLY does not do it for me. There's something not right about the vocal production that gives her a dull, thin sound devoid of any grace or color that Norma in particular needs. Sutherland is too silvery and while I do not really get a sense of Norma's anger, she at least sounds clear, the voice has elegance, and the diction isn't too mushy


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The actual trio is cut down to almost nothing in the Callas/Stignani/Picchi - you hear the tune once and it's over - which for me makes it almost impossible to compare fairly. But if we could hear the rest of the music, and in better sound, I'm pretty sure I'd go for the old-timers, so I'll give them my vote. In any case Callas is far and away the best of the three Normas.

Why isn't cute Joyce DiDonato wearing a period wig (if there is a period and this isn't a cosplay party), and what is Radvanovsky doing with those candles?


----------



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I gave it to Callas and company, although Sutherland is also interesting. 
In my fantasy, Giudita Pasta was like Callas and Giulia Grisi like Sutherland.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

1952 - best soprano, tenor and mezzo.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I'd have preferred Callas's La Scala performance with Simionato and Del Monaco, but London is still pretty exciting and Picchi is actually very good, more than a match for both Caleja and Alexander. Callas is far and away the best Norma (the high D here is enormous - no wonder Sutherland, who was no doubt listening in the wings, called her voice colossal) and Stignani, though nearing the end of her career, is still the best Adalgisa. Despite the cuts, more noticeable when you only get the closing bit of the trio, the others are outclassed.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I thought we'd get some interesting discussions here  I am sorry on this I didn't consult any of my Callas experts on this. As with NO other singer different versions matter with Callas. I did not know about the Simeonato and Del Monaco version. I preferred the excitement of the Corelli but I thought the sound would influence the selection. This version of Callas' Norma has been my go to as her voice is in great shape, Stignani is fabulous and the sound is very acceptable. I knew with this crowd SHE would win. Verrett was a very good Norma and people here hate Eaglen so I thought I'd go with a contemporary production from the Met. It got you guys going which is what matters.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

I'm glad that you clarified that we should vote for the "best team" because in that other thread when you asked for the "best pair" I wrote down "Angela Gheorghiu" and looked like a damned fool - 👿


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Spoiler: Norma 1955 Scala Callas Simionato Del Monaco: Pérfido! or Basti 













Spoiler: Norma, Act 1: "Perfido!... Or basti" (Norma, Adalgisa, Pollione) - Callas, Corelli, Ludwig - 1960













Spoiler: Norma, Act 1: "Perfido!... Or basti" (Norma, Adalgisa, Pollione) 1954


----------



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I did not know about the Simeonato and Del Monaco version.


It seems to be the matter of eternal internet debates, whether the best Callas' Norma is with Simionato and Del Monaco La Scala 1955 or the studio recording with Corelli in 1960. (But 1955 is a little more popular I think)


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> Spoiler: Norma 1955 Scala Callas Simionato Del Monaco: Pérfido! or Basti
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Callas doesn't sing the top D in either of her studio recordings. Whilst I can understand why she would omit the note in 1960, I do not understand why she would omit it in 1954, especially considering she sings it in both the live recordings we have from 1955. La Scala under Votto and a radio broadcast from Rome, which, like the studio recordings, is conducted by Serafin.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Callas doesn't sing the top D in either of her studio recordings. Whilst I can understand why she would omit the note in 1960, I do not understand why she would omit it in 1954, especially considering she sings it in both the live recordings we have from 1955. La Scala under Votto and a radio broadcast from Rome, which, like the studio recordings, is conducted by Serafin.


I can't find an excerpt but the complete 1955 version - in really pretty decent sound all things considered - Callas, Del Monaco, Simionato - Votto



Spoiler: Norma - 1955 Live recording - Callas, Del Monaco, Simionato - Votto











"Rome broadcast" did brings up this up which is unrelated to the above but it does concern a 1958 Norma performance - It's mostly about fashion - who wore what and that sort of thing - Kind of classic SOF material - 



Spoiler: Maria Callas and the Rome Walkout (1958)











and this - which is the complete first act and then, at the 21:08 mark, she explains why she stopped the performance - and then comments that she has "certain colleagues that pay to have me booed" which had been going on for six years at La Scala -



Spoiler: Maria Callas "Norma - The Rome Walkout" 02.01.1958


----------



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Callas doesn't sing the top D in either of her studio recordings. Whilst I can understand why she would omit the note in 1960, I do not understand why she would omit it in 1954, especially considering she sings it in both the live recordings we have from 1955. La Scala under Votto and a radio broadcast from Rome, which, like the studio recordings, is conducted by Serafin.


People write here, maybe it was even you, that she feared about killing the microphone during the studio recordings. Are high notes somehow bad for microphones ?


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> I can't find an excerpt but the complete 1955 version - in really pretty decent sound all things considered - Callas, Del Monaco, Simionato - Votto
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Rome radio broadcast of 1955 also has Del Monaco as Pollione. Fillipeschi is on the 1954 studio recorrding, so what you have above is just another version of the same release you posted earlier.

I don't seem to be able to find the complete 1955 Rome performance on youtube, but I did come across this.






The 1955 Rome performance has been issued on various labels over the years. Here's one of them.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> People write here, maybe it was even you, that she feared about killing the microphone during the studio recordings. Are high notes somehow bad for microphones ?


She sang top Ebs in plenty of her studio recordings, so I doubt that has anything to do with it.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Here ya go






it’s the whole last scene, Act One finale, Callas, Simionato, Del Monaco, Votto La Scala 1955


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Here ya go
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She's still WAY out in front in our contest but it is nice to know the one you sought. is on Youtube. Some of these things hide without considerable digging.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

My head is in a tizzy. Too much too soon.
I wish I had heard that same group doing "In mia mano" instead which wouldn't have been such a miasma of singing activity with some having cuts and others not.
As a 3-some I think I will give it to Sutherland/Alexander/Horne but not really, if you catch my drift.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> My head is in a tizzy. Too much too soon.
> I wish I had heard that same group doing "In mia mano" instead which wouldn't have been such a miasma of singing activity with some having cuts and others not.
> As a 3-some I think I will give it to Sutherland/Alexander/Horne but not really, if you catch my drift.


No more trios for a year at least.


----------



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> She's still WAY out in front in our contest but it is nice to know the one you sought. is on Youtube. Some of these things hide without considerable digging.


True story - I have met a girl on a hike who doesn't know opera much. After walking with me, she was determined to watch Norma based on the _plot_ I told her about. She went for youtube and it showed her, as the top result, the video of later Callas singing Casta diva in concert. She was content with it, but I would never have chosen this as the best example ! At the same time, I understand why youtube thinks this is the best. However, my friend was completely unable to find any complete Norma on youtube ! I know the tricks, but they are not obvious to people not interested in the opera. 

I pointed her to Sutherland in Sydney. She quite liked it, but got tired at Mira o Norma, and, in fact, I don't blame her. That part is an acquired taste for me. She said she will continue later but never did. But I digressed here. So, yes, youtube hides things.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

BBSVK said:


> True story - I have met a girl on a hike who doesn't know opera much. After walking with me, she was determined to watch Norma based on the _plot_ I told her about. She went for youtube and it showed her, as the top result, the video of later Callas singing Casta diva in concert. She was content with it, but I would never have chosen this as the best example ! At the same time, I understand why youtube thinks this is the best. However, my friend was completely unable to find any complete Norma on youtube ! I know the tricks, but they are not obvious to people not interested in the opera.
> 
> I pointed her to Sutherland in Sydney. She quite liked it, but got tired at Mira o Norma, and, in fact, I don't blame her. That part is an acquired taste for me. She said she will continue later but never did. But I digressed here. So, yes, youtube hides things.


Start her on a murder mystery (Tosca) or a sexy female jailbait (Carmen). Those will grab her. There is a youtube Alagna/Garanca "Carmen" which is hot stuff and perfect for a first-timer.


----------



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

nina foresti said:


> Start her on a murder mystery (Tosca) or a sexy female jailbait (Carmen). Those will grab her. There is a youtube Alagna/Garanca "Carmen" which is hot stuff and perfect for a first-timer.


She seems to be most interested in live performances, so I take her to those which I want to see myself. Which are totaly unlikely choices for somebody new to the genre. But she was completely happy with Don Trastulo and kept nagging me for another opera. We are now going to see a contemporary opera - I warned her I don't know it and it might be horrible :-D .


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Duplicate post - some sort of website error - "Check back later" - I did - and now there are two identical posts - and I probably won't be paid for either one.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> * what is Radvanovsky doing with those candles?*


Aromatherapy... Yoga and meditation alone just weren't cutting it... Apparently being a Druid isn't quite the walk in the park that it's made out to be...


----------



## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Shaughnessy said:


> Aromatherapy... Yoga and meditation alone just weren't cutting it... Apparently being a Druid isn't quite the walk in the park that it's made out to be...


It's a powerful druid sorcery. She puts a spell on Pollione or Adalgisa, as if she would make tea for annoying guests. Or it's a kind of fortune telling, like in Khovanschina (pagan remnants in Russian Orthodox culture). Maybe a good amount of candles remained from Tosca. It's a funny modern production, disguised as a period on. Norma's wig shows expectable lack of hot water in druid settles, while Adalgisa's haircut seen from the gallery might generate an idea of hygienic purposes (though DiDonato looks pretty close-up).


----------



## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

And the music. If I saw Radvanovsky in a theater, I would be close to death from rapture, tears would drop, creeps would be given etc., etc. But as we understand that there is no perfect Norma and there are at least Callas, Sutherland, Caballe, Cerquetti, Gencer, then Miss Radvanovsky becomes one in a queue. This contest is reduced to usual Callas-Sutherland battle, but here we consider commands and I like a command 2.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ColdGenius said:


> And the music. If I saw Radvanovsky in a theater, I would be close to death from rapture, tears would drop, creeps would be given etc., etc. But as we understand that there is no perfect Norma and there are at least Callas, Sutherland, Caballe, Cerquetti, Gencer, then Miss Radvanovsky becomes one in a queue. This contest is reduced to usual Callas-Sutherland battle, but here we consider commands and I like a command 2.


If I understand this post correctly - and I'm not sure, not at all sure, that I do - you are saying that Radvanovsky's Norma is approximately on the same level of excellence as those of the other singers you mention, all of whose Normas are more or less equally fine or equally flawed, or a least so nearly so as to constitute a row or line or sequence of something, like a bunch of sardines in a can, or eggs in a carton.

I sit quietly, numb with apprehension, waiting for clarity.


----------



## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> If I understand this post correctly - and I'm not sure, not at all sure, that I do - you are saying that Radvanovsky's Norma is approximately on the same level of excellence as those of the other singers you mention, all of whose Normas are more or less equally fine or equally flawed, or a least so nearly so as to constitute a row or line or sequence of something, like a bunch of sardines in a can, or eggs in a carton.
> 
> I sit quietly, numb with apprehension, waiting for clarity.


Nobody is perfect, everyone has some flaws and worths. I mentioned a queue, which may consist of whoever you want: who sang Norma, who recorded it, who is available now, who can sing it or thinks that she can. The order too may vary. And I never had a goal to find the only performer who sings properly, and the rest go to hell. Eventually, I'm too undereducated and assume different opinions to make such a judgment. 
The names I mentioned... I believe they are very different, but worthy to know them. Radvanovsky is unlikely to be equal to them, but they differ from each other too. And it's wonderful. I think that Radvanovsky is a notable soprano of our time, even if Norma is not her best. I have no doubt in Callas' greatness, but she doesn't need my approval. As one clever woman said, "this lady can choose herself whom to impress". Nevertheless I wouldn't like the theaters to shop working because Callas stopped singing.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ColdGenius said:


> Nobody is perfect, everyone has some flaws and worths. I mentioned a queue, which may consist of whoever you want: who sang Norma, who recorded it, who is available now, who can sing it or thinks that she can. The order too may vary. And I never had a goal to find the only performer who sings properly, and the rest go to hell. Eventually, I'm too undereducated and assume different opinions to make such a judgment.
> The names I mentioned... I believe they are very different, but worthy to know them. Radvanovsky is unlikely to be equal to them, but they differ from each other too. And it's wonderful. I think that Radvanovsky is a notable soprano of our time, even if Norma is not her best. I have no doubt in Callas' greatness, but she doesn't need my approval. As one clever woman said, "this lady can choose herself whom to impress". Nevertheless I wouldn't like the theaters to shop working because Callas stopped singing.


I doubt anyone wants to close down the opera houses, not even Pierre Boulez, who suggested burning them down before he started making money conducting in them. Nor do I imagine that anyone wants to find just one perfect singer for any role. Since those are the desires and goals of no one, I wonder who you're arguing with. 

Most people, I suspect, would have a more reasonable and modest wish: to find anyone at all possessing vocal and histrionic skills capable of bringing us great performances of Norma, Medea, Isolde and other such demanding, dramatic roles. Until we find such a person (or people), we'll continue to attend the theater and listen to recordings according to the level of our tolerance. If Radvanovsky's Norma can bring you close to death in a pool of rapturous tears, congratulations on your high tolerance.


----------



## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Well,


Woodduck said:


> I doubt anyone wants to close down the opera houses, not even Pierre Boulez, who suggested burning them down before he started making money conducting in them. Nor do I imagine that anyone wants to find just one perfect singer for any role. Since those are the desires and goals of no one, I wonder who you're arguing with.
> 
> Most people, I suspect, would have a more reasonable and modest wish: to find anyone at all possessing vocal and histrionic skills capable of bringing us great performances of Norma, Medea, Isolde and other such demanding, dramatic roles. Until we find such a person (or people), we'll continue to attend the theater and listen to recordings according to the level of our tolerance. If Radvanovsky's Norma can bring you close to death in a pool of rapturous tears, congratulations on your high tolerance.


Well, I didn't hear her live. But I heard some less successful performances all over Europe.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ColdGenius said:


> Well,
> Well, I didn't hear her live. But I heard some less successful performances all over Europe.


Indeed, there are worse. We can be grateful to all the singers who have declined when offered these roles. I like Birgit Nilsson's typically succinct remark when Norma was suggested to her: "Too many little notes."


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

To me there is a difference between someone who can adequately sing the role ( very hard to find) and you could enjoy hearing live ( Radvanovsky, Goerke- 15 years ago for me, Rita Hunter, Elinor Ross and Dimitrova ) and a great artist like Callas, Ponselle or Caballe who inhabited the role and you would enjoy going back time and time again to relive their interpretation. In a great role like Norma you really need an artist of a certain caliber to bring something to the role. I would also put mature Sutherland in this camp as she dramatically grew into the role later on ( watch her live Sydney video from around age 60 where she is at times on fire as an actress) - but of course never to the degree of Callas.


----------



## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Shaughnessy said:


> I'm glad that you clarified that we should vote for the "best team" because in that other thread when you asked for the "best pair" I wrote down "Angela Gheorghiu" and looked like a damned fool - 👿


🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------

