# Tristan und Isolde



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Any opinion(s) on this Opera by Wagner? I have a copy of the full opera on 3CDs with a very detailed booklet, certainly a good perches; just that here in Israel Wagner's operas are not preformed publicly due to his anti-Semitism and relations to the Nazis, I think back in 2000 there was an attempt to preform this opera and well...it didn't work out smoothly; anyhow, Jew hater or nor, this does not detach from his talent, and I love his operas; and, hey, if Israelis drive on Ford's cars, but not listen to Wagner's operas?
Also regarding this specific opera, I liked the story very much, and I can feel the emotions bursting despite not speaking German; I actually wanted to learn German once but my family opposed...


----------



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

You should search the forum a little bit! This opera has been THOROUGHLY discussed from every possible angle


----------



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

These should keep you busy!

https://www.talkclassical.com/13979-tristan-isolde-you.html

https://www.talkclassical.com/52106-wagner-disc-tristan-isolde.html

https://www.talkclassical.com/58550-wagners-tristan-und-isolde.html

https://www.talkclassical.com/15880-tristan-und-isolde-addiction.html

https://www.talkclassical.com/45653-tristan-isolde-dvd-best.html

https://www.talkclassical.com/25937-tristan-und-isolde-recordings.html

https://www.talkclassical.com/36505-lets-talk-tristan-und.html

https://www.talkclassical.com/56744-tristan-personnal-semi-revelation.html


----------



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Bonetan said:


> You should search the forum a little bit! This opera has been THOROUGHLY discussed from every possible angle


That doesn't stay only in TUI. But many other operas and classical compositions. One should search on google if the thread has been created in Talk Classical.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Granate said:


> That doesn't stay only in TUI. But many other operas and classical compositions. One should search on google if the thread has been created in Talk Classical.


I apologize, but I still think this thread is relevant as I also pointed out the dilemma in Israel over Wagner's operas (though thankfully selling and buying them for private use is fine), which is important as I don't think there any people from Israel here aside of myself.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

True that about hypocrisy if Israelis are still driving Ford. 

Wagner is clearly an immense genius, and worthy of a place right up there with the greats: Beethoven, Bach, Mozart... and Wagner. Yet due to his awful words and poisonous worldview, and on suspicion that some of these ideals may come across in his works (he is an opera composer after all, and wrote his own librettos with the same proverbial pen he used to write "Jewishness in Music")... Well, let's just say that I'm not in a rush to get into his music, considering how many other great composers are out there that didn't write horrific things that posterity remembers as being on the wrong side of history. 

That being said... Tristan und Isolde is a total masterpiece as far as I'm concerned. Probably his greatest work in my eyes. I haven't heard nearly the whole thing but I know that to be true. 

If I WERE to buy a recording... which would it be? On the subject of his hatefulness, someone once recommended to me Barenboim's recording, because I guess a Jew conducting Wagner cancels out the anti-Semitism... right? 

Hmm... I always experience cognitive dissonance listening to, talking about, thinking about Wagner.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I feel genuinely sorry for people whose lives were affected by atrocities which, for whatever reason, make them uncomfortable with music they associate with terrible experiences and events. Nowadays most of those people are gone or very old, but there seem to be a surprising number of younger people who feel they must perpetuate a presumed "connection" between Wagner's operas and a vicious dictator who happened to love them. Some zealots have even tried to prove that the operas themselves are anti-Jewish.

Sad to say, we've seen examples of that zealotry right here on TC. It would be good to keep it at bay. The subject is interesting, but it really belongs in another thread.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> True that about hypocrisy if Israelis are still driving Ford.
> 
> Wagner is clearly an immense genius, and worthy of a place right up there with the greats: Beethoven, Bach, Mozart... and Wagner. Yet due to his awful words and poisonous worldview, and on suspicion that some of these ideals may come across in his works (he is an opera composer after all, and wrote his own librettos with the same proverbial pen he used to write "Jewishness in Music")... Well, let's just say that I'm not in a rush to get into his music, considering how many other great composers are out there that didn't write horrific things that posterity remembers as being on the wrong side of history.
> 
> ...


I have the "Deutsche Grammophon" one.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> I have the "Deutsche Grammophon" one.


Which Deutsche Grammophon one? Tthe DG recording of the 1966 Bayreuth Festival _Tristan_, with Birgit Nilsson and Wolfgang Windgassen, conducted by Karl Bohm, is one of the most highly recommended. The DG recording with Helga Dernesch and Jon Vickers under Karajan is also recommendable, and the DG recording with Margaret Price and Rene Kollo under Kleiber has its partisans.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> I feel genuinely sorry for people whose lives were affected by atrocities which, for whatever reason, make them uncomfortable with music they associate with terrible experiences and events. Nowadays most of those people are gone or very old, but there seem to be a surprising number of younger people who feel they must perpetuate a presumed "connection" between Wagner's operas and a vicious dictator who happened to love them. Some zealots have even tried to prove that the operas themselves are anti-Jewish.
> 
> Sad to say, we've seen examples of that zealotry right here on TC. It would be good to keep it at bay. The subject is interesting, but it really belongs in another thread.


To say nothing of Hitler and the Nazis, it's common knowledge that Wagner himself was vehemently anti-Semitic, as I'm sure you know. Is it that much of a stretch to believe that he would have inserted elements of his worldview into his operas? (Disclaimer: I'm not particularly familiar with any of his operas). I have particularly heard this accusation about the Ring cycle.

You are probably right that this discussion belongs in another thread, but I was surprised to read such a submissive tone in your post. Pretty serious subject matter, I'd say.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Which Deutsche Grammophon one? Tthe DG recording of the 1966 Bayreuth Festival _Tristan_, with Birgit Nilsson and Wolfgang Windgassen, conducted by Karl Bohm, is one of the most highly recommended. The DG recording with Helga Dernesch and Jon Vickers under Karajan is also recommendable, and the DG recording with Margaret Price and Rene Kollo under Kleiber has its partisans.


I have heard bits and pieces of the Kleiber and the Furtwängler. Of the two I preferred the latter, but would prefer something with slightly better sound (preferably in stereo). Between Böhm and Karajan, would you say one or the other is closer to the Furtwängler? (Assuming you are familiar with it; I know you are a huge Wagner fan so I don't think it's too big a stretch to assume you might be  )


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

flamencosketches said:


> To say nothing of Hitler and the Nazis, it's common knowledge that Wagner himself was vehemently anti-Semitic, as I'm sure you know. Is it that much of a stretch to believe that he would have inserted elements of his worldview into his operas? (Disclaimer: I'm not particularly familiar with any of his operas). I have particularly heard this accusation about the Ring cycle.
> 
> You are probably right that this discussion belongs in another thread, but I was surprised to read such a submissive tone in your post. Pretty serious subject matter, I'd say.


As a longtime student of things Wagnerian, I know his works VERY well and his personal views rather well, and the question of antisemitism in relation to the operas is one I've spent a lot of time with. If you'd like to get into it, I'm game - but I don't think anyone can say much that's useful about Wagner's work until they've spent a fair bit of time with it.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

flamencosketches said:


> I have heard bits and pieces of the Kleiber and the Furtwängler. Of the two I preferred the latter, but would prefer something with slightly better sound (preferably in stereo). Between Böhm and Karajan, would you say one or the other is closer to the Furtwängler? (Assuming you are familiar with it; I know you are a huge Wagner fan so I don't think it's too big a stretch to assume you might be  )


Honestly, the three performances are all very different in both the conducting and the singing. Furtwangler was unique, and in my view he got to the heart and soul of the opera like no one else; his Act 2 is sheer magic. Karajan likes sensuous sounds, which is very suitable in itself, and is closer to Furty in general style than Bohm, who is intense and feverish, an approach that makes for a powerful dramatic effect but sometimes slights the romance and beauty. For me the Karajan is important mainly for Vickers' intense _Tristan._ In my collection now I have the Bohm and the Furtwangler, the Domingo/Stemme/Pappano, the live 1952 Bayreuth performance under Karajan, the live Munich 1950 under Knappertsbusch, and the 1937 Met broadcast with Flagstad and Melchior under Bodanzky.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> As a longtime student of things Wagnerian, I know his works VERY well and his personal views rather well, and the question of antisemitism in relation to the operas is one I've spent a lot of time with. If you'd like to get into it, I'm game - but I don't think anyone can say much that's useful about Wagner's work until they've spent a fair bit of time with it.


Definitely going to defer to you on this one. I wasn't making any claims one way or the other, just that I've heard it said and that it's entirely possible, which is one reason why I've been less than thrilled at the prospect of exploring his works. (The length of the operas is another).

Hmm... choices... I'll sample all 3 when I have time. If I'm gonna have any full Wagner opera in my collection I think it should be this one.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

flamencosketches said:


> Definitely going to defer to you on this one. I wasn't making any claims one way or the other, just that I've heard it said and that it's entirely possible, which is one reason why I've been less than thrilled at the prospect of exploring his works. (The length of the operas is another).
> 
> Hmm... choices... I'll sample all 3 when I have time. If I'm gonna have any full Wagner opera in my collection I think it should be this one.


Don't let anything you've read scare you off of Wagner. He, like many other people (including some famous composers) made antisemitic statements, but to find anything of that nature in his operas you have to be determined to read them in. A Jewish friend of mine, introduced to the _Ring_ and knowing nothing about it except what he'd heard from who knows what non-authoritative sources, said with some surprise, "well, there's nothing Nazi about this." He was correct.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

If he hated Italians I'd still love his operas.


----------



## Guest (Apr 25, 2019)

This is my least favorite of his operas. It never seems to end. I would have probably finished them myself if I had to be there and hear another second of their incessant prattle. Chloroform posting as music.

I do like Meister singer.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Don't let anything you've read scare you off of Wagner. He, like many other people (including some famous composers) made antisemitic statements, but to find anything of that nature in his operas you have to be determined to read them in. A Jewish friend of mine, introduced to the _Ring_ and knowing nothing about it except what he'd heard from who knows what non-authoritative sources, said with some surprise, "well, there's nothing Nazi about this." He was correct.


Cognitive dissonance or not, I bit the bullet and pulled the trigger on that Böhm/Bayreuth recording as my first Wagner CD (other than the Szell/Cleveland "Wagner Without Words", but that was a gift from years ago). I liked what little I heard of it. At under $5 for a used copy I could hardly pass it up.

All thanks to this thread. Cheers to setting aside my convictions for the sake of good music


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

flamencosketches said:


> Cognitive dissonance or not, I bit the bullet and pulled the trigger on that Böhm/Bayreuth recording as my first Wagner CD (other than the Szell/Cleveland "Wagner Without Words", but that was a gift from years ago). I liked what little I heard of it. At under $5 for a used copy I could hardly pass it up.
> 
> All thanks to this thread. Cheers to setting aside my convictions for the sake of good music


Bohm is a fine choice. 
I play it a lot because the acts are complete on each disc


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Which Deutsche Grammophon one? Tthe DG recording of the 1966 Bayreuth Festival _Tristan_, with Birgit Nilsson and Wolfgang Windgassen, conducted by Karl Bohm, is one of the most highly recommended. The DG recording with Helga Dernesch and Jon Vickers under Karajan is also recommendable, and the DG recording with Margaret Price and Rene Kollo under Kleiber has its partisans.


https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/gb/cat/4775355


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I feel genuinely sorry for people whose lives were affected by atrocities which, for whatever reason, make them uncomfortable with music they associate with terrible experiences and events. Nowadays most of those people are gone or very old, but there seem to be a surprising number of younger people who feel they must perpetuate a presumed "connection" between Wagner's operas and a vicious dictator who happened to love them. Some zealots have even tried to prove that the operas themselves are anti-Jewish.
> 
> Sad to say, we've seen examples of that zealotry right here on TC. It would be good to keep it at bay. The subject is interesting, but it really belongs in another thread.


A certain dictator's favourite drammatico-musical work was Lehar's Merry Widow, but you don't hear calls for that to be banned. (Although Lehar didn't write anti-semitic tracts). In fact there was a production recently at ENO in London that took a few digs at a more recent dictator...

N.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

flamencosketches said:


> it's common knowledge that Wagner himself was vehemently anti-Semitic, as I'm sure you know. Is it that much of a stretch to believe that he would have inserted elements of his worldview into his operas?


Whether he did or not, I think I'm on safe ground in saying that there is nothing that could be remotely interpreted as anti-Semitic in _Tristan und Isolde_.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Whether he did or not, I think I'm on safe ground in saying that there is nothing that could be remotely interpreted as anti-Semitic in _Tristan und Isolde_.


Good, because Tristan is the one I like the most 

At least out of what I've heard. Does anyone know which of Wagner's scores Debussy owned and studied? I was thinking either Tristan or Parsifal. I certainly hear shades of the harmonies of Tristan in Debussy's work.


----------



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> I apologize, but I still think this thread is relevant as I also pointed out the dilemma in Israel over Wagner's operas (though thankfully selling and buying them for private use is fine), which is important as I don't think there any people from Israel here aside of myself.


google "site:talkclassical.com wagner+israel" Five threads. Like Wagner and Israel. 2012. 8 pages, etc. 

Tell me anything that hasn't been discussed about Wagner in 15 years of this forum. Maybe, what would happen if Wagner had a twitter account, VR Rheingold. Big Data companies catching new opera goers to their subscription site...


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

flamencosketches said:


> Good, because Tristan is the one I like the most
> 
> At least out of what I've heard. Does anyone know which of Wagner's scores Debussy owned and studied? I was thinking either Tristan or Parsifal. I certainly hear shades of the harmonies of Tristan in Debussy's work.


Debussy studied both of them. He even tried once to play the entirety of _Tristan_ on the piano from memory (apparently unsuccessfully). While composing _Pelleas et Melisande_ he complained of the difficulty of keeping reminiscences of _Parsifal _out of it, and we can still hear hints of that opera in some of the orchestral interludes of _Pelleas._


----------



## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> These should keep you busy!
> 
> Tristan, Isolde, and You
> 
> ...


Warm Greetings, Bonetan! If I want to read all the Wagner opera threads what search term should I use in Google? Have you ever found such a search to have missed many threads? TYVM


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Tristan und Isolde is on my to do list ever since I heard the magnificent Prelude and Liebestod, which I easily consider among the greatest music I know.
I must say that the concept of Liebestod / love-death in general eludes me a bit, it seems very ambiguous.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DeepR said:


> Tristan und Isolde is on my to do list ever since I heard the magnificent Prelude and Liebestod, which I easily consider among the greatest music I know.
> I must say that the concept of Liebestod / love-death in general eludes me a bit, it seems very ambiguous.


A love that could not be in the light of day
A love so strong that can only be fulfilled in death.
That's part of the fascination my friend.
But remember WAGNER called it love/death and transfiguration.
Think about that one.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Any opinion(s) on this Opera by Wagner? I have a copy of the full opera on 3CDs with a very detailed booklet, certainly a good perches; just that here in Israel Wagner's operas are not preformed publicly due to his anti-Semitism and relations to the Nazis, I think back in 2000 there was an attempt to preform this opera and well...it didn't work out smoothly; anyhow, Jew hater or nor, this does not detach from his talent, and I love his operas; and, hey, if Israelis drive on Ford's cars, but not listen to Wagner's operas?
> Also regarding this specific opera, I liked the story very much, and I can feel the emotions bursting despite not speaking German; I actually wanted to learn German once but my family opposed...


I don't think anyone stops people listening to Wagner in Israel but I can understand why, in a country created from the Holocaust, people do not want a composer played whose name is indelibly linked (rightly or not) to the man who headed the atrocities. I recognise Tristan is a work of genius but it does leave me somewhat detached. Something I admire not warm to.

The comparison with Ford is not quite accurate as Ford is dead and so are his designs. Wagner's philosophy lives on through his operas.


----------



## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

DavidA said:


> The comparison with Ford is not quite accurate as Ford is dead and so are his designs. Wagner's philosophy lives on through his operas.


It's not quite the same thing, but its a fair point about Isrealis driving Ford vehicles.

Wagner's operas are works of art, not philosophical doctrines. If we didn't know so much about the man, his personal life, and his ideas, there's no way anyone would be able to deduce Wagner's "philosophy" from watching Tristan und Isolde, or any of the other music dramas.


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Itullian said:


> A love that could not be in the light of day
> A love so strong that can only be fulfilled in death.
> That's part of the fascination my friend.
> But remember WAGNER called it love/death and transfiguration.
> Think about that one.


Thanks. Maybe I'm being way too literal but is "death" in this case inseparable from the belief in an afterlife (where the lovers can finally be together for eternity)? 
Without the idea of an afterlife, the only logical explanation for "liebestod" I can think of, is that death brings relief of the burden of impossible love.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

DavidA said:


> I don't think anyone stops people listening to Wagner in Israel but I can understand why, in a country created from the Holocaust, people do not want a composer played whose name is indelibly linked (rightly or not) to the man who headed the atrocities. I recognise Tristan is a work of genius but it does leave me somewhat detached. Something I admire not warm to.
> 
> The comparison with Ford is not quite accurate as Ford is dead and so are his designs. Wagner's philosophy lives on through his operas.


As I said, even if this is justified, Wagner's talent remains unharmed, just as chess players don't have to accept Bobbi Fischer's questionable opinions (didn't he pass away a few years ago?); I still listen to Wagner regardless.
As for Ford, he was also a major influence in Hitler (who even mentioned him on his book!), yet people don't mind driving his cars; so why Wagner?


----------



## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

DeepR said:


> Thanks. Maybe I'm being way too literal but is "death" in this case inseparable from the belief in an afterlife (where the lovers can finally be together for eternity)?
> Without the idea of an afterlife, the only logical explanation for "liebestod" I can think of, is that death brings relief of the burden of impossible love.


I don't believe the idea of liebstod is linked to the idea of an afterlife, at least not in this opera. I think there is something of a relief of a burden as you say, but there's also something of a consummation of love in death. How so? Think of the innummerable love stories in world history, Romeo and Juliet only being one of the most ubiqutious, where lovers are prepared to die for their love for one another. The willingness to sacrifice that most precious procession anyone has, life, in the name of love is love's greatest achievement.


----------



## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

MaxKellerman said:


> I don't believe the idea of liebstod is linked to the idea of an afterlife, at least not in this opera. I think there is something of a relief of a burden as you say, but there's also something of a consummation of love in death. How so? Think of the innummerable love stories in world history, Romeo and Juliet only being one of the most ubiqutious, where lovers are prepared to die for their love for one another. The willingness to sacrifice that most precious procession anyone has, life, in the name of love is love's greatest achievement.


So love's greatest achievement is to make people kill themselves? Nice.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Love conquers death.
Love goes on.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

DeepR said:


> Tristan und Isolde is on my to do list ever since I heard the magnificent Prelude and Liebestod, which I easily consider among the greatest music I know.
> I must say that the concept of Liebestod / love-death in general eludes me a bit, it seems very ambiguous.


That was pretty much my thought process. That is an incredible orchestral work. I just ordered a copy of Böhm's Tristan off of Discogs for $5, you ought to check on there as I saw more copies in that price range.

I'm gonna be in way over my head. I've hardly listened to any full operas in my life and this one is damn near 4 hours long.


----------



## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> So love's greatest achievement is to make people kill themselves? Nice.


That's a radical misinterpretation of the situation. Its noy about people killing themselves. Its about being willing to sacrifice yourself for another human being and holding certain values as more precious than life itself. Its the ultimate vindication of love.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

From the synopsis included in the Orfeo '52 Karajan Tristan set:

"In the war between Ireland and Cornwall (which is obliged to pay taxes to Ireland) Tristan, the nephew of King Marke, kills Morold, the bridegroom of the Irish Princess Isolde. He is severely wounded in doing so. Only Isolde, who knows how to use magic potions, can save him.
This is why Tristan is on his way to Ireland, under the false name of Tantris. Isolde heals his wound, although recognizing him as her deadly enemy. 
One glance in his eyes and she falls passionately in love. Tristan reciprocates her love, but then returns to King Marke's fortress, in Cornwall nonetheless.
After the reconciliation between both countries has been sealed, Tristan comes to Ireland, this time as a suitor, in order to bring Isolde to Cornwall to be King Marke's wife.

Skip to last act synopsis:
"Kurwenal kills Melot, and in so doing becomes himself mortally wounded. Marke, for whom Brangane has discovered the secret of the love potion, (he now wanted to unite the lovers himself) is now staggered and remains where he is.
*In the Liebestod und Verklarung,( Love death and transfiguration), Isolde follows Tristan into another world.*


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

In the original story, Tristan and Isolde die to this world. Isolde joins him in death.
They are buried side by side.
A vine grows from each grave and they intertwine symbolizing they are united.

imho, at the very end of the opera , as the music is fading we hear two woodwinds play simultaneously before the music fades.

I don't think it's a coincidence. I think the 2 woodwinds playing together symbolizes the two vines growing together in the original story.
A genius stroke by RW.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I don't think anyone stops people listening to Wagner in Israel but I can understand why, in a country created from the Holocaust, *people do not want a composer played whose name is indelibly linked **(rightly or not)* *to the man who headed the atrocities.* I recognise Tristan is a work of genius but it does leave me somewhat detached. Something I admire not warm to.
> 
> The comparison with Ford is not quite accurate as Ford is dead and so are his designs. *Wagner's philosophy lives on through his operas.*


I detect here the sort of careless (?) insinuation that feeds anti-Wagner bias and makes people needlessly uncomfortable with his work. To say merely that Wagner is "linked" to Hitler tells us nothing about Wagner's work but hints at something reprehensible, and to say that Wagner's "philosophy" lives on in his work _in this specific context_ is to imply vaguely suspect things about the operas which in fact may not hold up to scrutiny.

Associations, grounded in anything whatsoever, including nothing real, might legitimately keep people away from Wagner; every individual must follow his own inclinations. But associations are not a basis for making any statement about what Wagner actually achieved. We need to try to approach his works with spectacles unclouded by second-hand biases.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

For someone that regards opera as mere entertainment,
someone is sure taking it very seriously.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MaxKellerman said:


> It's not quite the same thing, but its a fair point about Isrealis driving Ford vehicles.
> 
> Wagner's operas are works of art, not philosophical doctrines. If we didn't know so much about the man, his personal life, and his ideas, there's no way anyone would be able to deduce Wagner's "philosophy" from watching Tristan und Isolde, or any of the other music dramas.


While not exactly 'philosophical doctrines' we do know = like it or not - from Wagner's writings that his philosophy found its way into the operas. I thought that was a given! In Tristan there is of course little of the controversy surrounding some of the other works in that what appears to be this obsession with idea of love/death that he got from the crazy miserabilist Schopenhauer and that Wagner thought was a good idea in theory if not in practice! Of course, it also appears to be emotionally driven by his illicit infatuation with the wife of one of his patrons. As this infatuation might not have been actually consummated may be the reason that Tristan has been called the longest coitus-interruptus in music, as the love is never consummated except in death, which has always appeared unsatisfactory to me. Whatever, unlike some of the other operas, nothing in it to specifically offend Jews in its (to me) crazy philosophy and of course musically it is a masterpiece although one I have never been able to completely warm to.
Fot me atm the modern recording that gives the most sympathetic view of the piece is the one by Carlos Kleiber, which is wonderfully light on its feet with Margaret Price a beautiful Isolde, one I can actually warm to, unlike (say) Nilsson who was an incredible singer but tends to leave one cold. Kleiber, of course, did one of his childish walk-outs before the thing was finished so DG had to patch the thing together. But the performance is remarkable.


----------



## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

DavidA said:


> In Tristan there is of course little of the controversy surrounding some of the other works in that what appears to be this obsession with idea of love/death that he got from the crazy miserabilist Schopenhauer and that Wagner thought was a good idea in theory if not in practice!


The overall conception of love and death presented in the opera have very little in common with Schopenhauer, and in fact are in some ways diametrically opposed to Schopenhauer's ideas. So this is a good example of how the operas work on a aesthetic level rather than a philosophical one, and a demonstration of how the relationship between Wagner's personal beliefs, his overall "philosophy", and what we see enacted in the operas is far too complex to be able to say that Wagner's philosophy is presented in the operas in any kind of neat and coherent way.

What we know from Wagner's writings is that Wagner was not a logically rigorous thinker, and that the operas and the ideas contained within them work because of their emotional directness and power.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MaxKellerman said:


> The overall conception of love and death presented in the opera have very little in common with Schopenhauer, and on fact are in some ways diametrically opposed to Schopenhauer's ideas. So this is a good example of how the operas work on a aesthetic level rather than a philosophical one, and a demonstration of how the relationship between Wagner's personal beliefs, his overall "philosophy", and what we see enacted in the operas is far too complex to be able to say that Wagner's philosophy is presented in the operas in any kind of neat and coherent way.
> 
> What we know from Wagner's writings is that Wagner was not a logically rigorous thinker, and that the operas and the ideas contained within them work because of their emotional directness and power.


Isn't it amazing how people see different things. Here's one Wagner scholar: "Wagner's simultaneous encounter with the abnegator philosophy of Schopenhauer helped to ensure that by the time he came to write the actual music drama it had already taken on more metaphysical baggage."
And another commentator:
'The new project was rooted in was rooted in Schopanhauerian notions of self abnegation and suppression of the will'


----------



## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Isn't it amazing how people see different things. Here's one Wagner scholar: "Wagner's simultaneous encounter with the abnegator philosophy of Schopenhauer helped to ensure that by the time he came to write the actual music drama it had already taken on more metaphysical baggage."
> And another commentator:
> 'The new project was rooted in was rooted in Schopanhauerian notions of self abnegation and suppression of the will'


Just because someone is a scholar on Wagner doesn't mean they have any acquaintance or understanding of Schopenhauer. Both of the quotes you posted are generalized and vague. Yes, Schopenhauer's philosophy influenced aspects of the opera, mostly through providing a kind of metaphysical framework and some of the major symbolism in the drama, but Schopenhauer's ideas on love and the erotic are nothing like Wagner presents in Tristan und Isolde. I believe Wagner even went so far at one point to draft a letter to Schopenhauer explaining how wrong he believed the philosopher's take was on the subject. I'm sorry, but anyone claiming Tristan und Isolde is rooted in "abnegation and suppression of the will" is watching a very different opera than I am, where passion rules the day.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MaxKellerman said:


> Just because someone is a scholar on Wagner doesn't mean they have any acquaintance or understanding of Schopenhauer. Both of the quotes you posted are generalized and vague. Yes, Schopenhauer's philosophy influenced aspects of the drama, mostly through providing a kind of metaphysical framework and symbolism in the drama, but Schopenhauer's ideas on love and the erotic are nothing like Wagner presents in Tristan und Isolde. I believe Wagner even went so far at one point to draft a letter to Schopenhauer explaining how wrong he believed the philosopher's take was on the subject. I'm sorry, but anyone claiming Tristan und Isolde is rooted in "abnegation and suppression of the will" is watching a very different opera than I am, where passion rules the day.


Interesting because just about everyone I have read )apart from your good self) reckons that the work is influenced by Schopenhauer's philosophy. Of course Schopenhauer's ideas run contrary to Wagner's but then Wagner apparently liked theoretically embracing ideas he didn't practice. But then that is philosophy.
I would have thought that the idea that love can only be consummated in death came from Schopenhauer's miserable ideas. Thankfully, my wife and I have found that love is consummated in life! :lol:


----------



## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

DavidA said:


> I would have thought that the idea that love can only be consummated in death came from Schopenhauer's miserable ideas.


Well, it doesn't. You might have thought that, but the fact that you don't really know what you're arguing is only because you haven't read or studied Schopenhauer yourself. I just acknowledged that the work is "influenced" by Schopenhauer's philosophy, but it doesn't dramatize or endorse many of the major tenants of that philosophy. Much of the time it contradicts Schopenhauer.

The fact that we are even having the debate over what exactly the philosophy of Tristan _is_, what i communicates, and how it relates to Schopenhauer and Wagner just goes to show what a fool's errand it is to try to piece together a biography of Wagner, his philosophy and thoughts on personal matters simply by watching one of his operas.


----------



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Welcome to Talk Classical, CWS. This is what happens when you open a thread discussed a billion times. Some members seem to need this to pass their free time. One will buy a CD recording and no one will change their opinion. Over and over again.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MaxKellerman said:


> Well, it doesn't. You might have thought that, but the fact that you don't really know what you're arguing is only because you haven't read or studied Schopenhauer yourself. I just acknowledged that the work is "influenced" by Schopenhauer's philosophy, but it doesn't reflect or endorse that philosophy.
> 
> The fact that we are even having the debate over what exactly the philosophy of Tristan _is_, and how it relates to Schopenhauer and Wagner just goes to show what a fool's errand it is to try to piece together a biography of Wagner, his philosophy and thoughts on personal matters simply by watching one of his operas.


 I certainly haven't read or studied Schopenhauer's pretty morbid philosophy in any depth. Frankly I have better things to do with my time than study a miserabilist. i'll leave him to you. Life is to be enjoyed and I don't think the gentleman concerned will particularly enhance my enjoyment of life. Actually I think we are both in agreement as we are saying that the world was influenced by his philosophy .

Interesting that you know what I have watched better than I know myself as I have watched and listened to all Wagner's operas not just one. Wagner is okay when I'm in the mood but I seem to be less and less in the mood for in these days


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Granate said:


> Welcome to Talk Classical, CWS. This is what happens when you open a thread discussed a billion times. Some members seem to need this to pass their free time. *One will buy a CD recording* and no one will change their opinion. Over and over again.


Worth it, I say


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

DavidA said:


> I certainly haven't read or studied Schopenhauer's pretty morbid philosophy in any depth. Frankly I have better things to do with my time than study a miserabilist. i'll leave him to you. Life is to be enjoyed and I don't think the gentleman concerned will particularly enhance my enjoyment of life. Actually I think we are both in agreement as we are saying that the world was influenced by his philosophy .
> 
> Interesting that you know what I have watched better than I know myself as I have watched and listened to all Wagner's operas not just one. Wagner is okay when I'm in the mood but I seem to be less and less in the mood for in these days


Schopenhauer is only a pessimist if you are a rationalist. The anti-rational, mystical quality of love is underlined by the potion in Tristan und Isolde. We might conclude Tristan and Isolde suffer from mere delirium until they meet a bitter end, but the music concludes in stark resolution, a peacefulness after suffering. Life is both enjoyment and suffering and you can't conceive of one without experience of the other while one is alive. Hence, Isolde must die.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Schopenhauer is only a pessimist if you are a rationalist. The anti-rational, mystical quality of love is underlined by the potion in Tristan und Isolde. We might conclude Tristan and Isolde suffer from mere delirium until they meet a bitter end, but the music concludes in stark resolution, a peacefulness after suffering. Life is both enjoyment and suffering and you can't conceive of one without experience of the other while one is alive. Hence, Isolde must die.


Schopenhauer is a misrerabilist. There is enough in life to make us miserable without him adding to it! Having been in love with a woman for nearly 50 years I do know something about it! We have had plenty of love and enjoyment while alive. ~This is not rationalism - just experience! :lol:


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Becoming lucid as to the insatiable nature of will does not make you miserable, rather it frees you. Schopenhauer is only a pessimist to the worldly-attached.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Becoming lucid as to the insatiable nature of will does not make you miserable, rather it frees you. Schopenhauer is only a pessimist to the worldly-attached.


Well mate, I would sooner be worldly attached and enjoy life without people who promote misery! If you want to believe that stuff then it's up to you :lol:


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Well mate, I would sooner be worldly attached and enjoy life without people who promote misery! If you want to believe that stuff then it's up to you :lol:


Buddha and Jesus "promote misery" in your view?


----------



## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

Is Schopenhauer generally regarded as a Jesus or a Buddha figure? (Genuinely asking.)


----------



## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

From Wikipedia (quote from Schopenhauer):



> My philosophy is founded on that of Kant, and therefore presupposes a thorough knowledge of it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Schopenhauer#The_world_as_representation

That seems like a high bar for entry. I've made it to mid-life with many huge gaps in my knowledge and understanding, and I'm a slow learner, so Schopenhauer may remain out of my reach.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Buddha and Jesus "promote misery" in your view?


Jesus said 'I have come that their joy might be full."


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

apricissimus said:


> From Wikipedia (quote from Schopenhauer):
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Schopenhauer#The_world_as_representation
> 
> That seems like a high bar for entry. I've made it to mid-life with many huge gaps in my knowledge and understanding, and I'm a slow learner, so *Schopenhauer may remain out of my reach*.


Good idea! :lol:


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

apricissimus said:


> Is Schopenhauer generally regarded as a Jesus or a Buddha figure? (Genuinely asking.)


There are many parallels between Schopenhauer, Buddha, and Christ's teachings. Wagner brings these together in Parsifal. Schopenhauer actually believed Christianity had its origins in India rather than Judea:

_"The New Testament, on the other hand, must be in some way traceable to an Indian source: its ethical system, its ascetic view of morality, its pessimism, and its Avatar, are all thoroughly Indian. " _https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/religion/chapter6.html


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Well mate, I would sooner be worldly attached and enjoy life without people who promote misery! If you want to believe that stuff then it's up to you :lol:


_For the knowledge that sees through the principium individuationis, a happy life in time, the gift of chance or won by prudence, amid the sorrows of innumerable others, is only the dream of a beggar in which he is a king, but from which he must awake and learn from experience that only a fleeting illusion had separated him from the suffering of his life._ - Schopenhauer


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> _For the knowledge that sees through the principium individuationis, a happy life in time, the gift of chance or won by prudence, amid the sorrows of innumerable others, is only the dream of a beggar in which he is a king, but from which he must awake and learn from experience that only a fleeting illusion had separated him from the suffering of his life._ - Schopenhauer


Now say that in English! :lol:


----------

