# Claude Debussy



## Ephemerid

When I was a teenager I first discovered Debussy and opened my ears to a whole new way of listening to music... I'm not even sure what prompted me to purchase some bargain cassette of Debussy's *Nocturnes *(side 2 had Ravel's *Bolero *which was another lovely surprise to my budding ears).

Whether its orchestral music, music for piano or chamber music, what is always so striking to me about Debussy is that it is such _colourful _music, which of course is also in part to his unusual harmonic language-- where chords sometimes cease to be "functional" but are there strictly for the sound-- there is something very sensual and even erotic I find in Debussy's music.

Back in the summer of 2006, I went on a big Debussy spending spree (I do these obsessive things from time to time LOL) and bought up at least one good recording of each of his major compositions, as well as a few not-so-well known ones. But it took me till then to listen to his one opera, *Pelleas et Melisande*, which totally blew me away! I am not a big opera listener, but this was an emotionally overwhelming experience for me (I went on for a couple weeks listening only to Pelleas).

If you intend on seriously getting into Debussy, the following are ESSENTIAL compositions:

Orchestral:
*The Afternoon of the Faun *(this piece never ceases to amaze me)
*Nocturnes
La Mer
Images
Jeux
**Symphonic Sketches from The Martyrdom of St. Sebastien *
*Danse sacree et profane *for harp and strings
And Claudio Abbado has done a _concert suite _from *Pelleas et Melisande *which is good as well

Piano:
*The Preludes *(one of the greatest works of the 20th century for piano)
*Suite Bergamasque *(especially for the lovely Clair de lune)
*Estampes
Children's Corner
*
*Reverie
Deux Arabasques
*

Chamber music:
*String Quartet
**Syrinx *(a short piece for solo flute)
*Sonata for cello and piano
Sonata for flute, viola and harp 
Sonata for violin and piano
*

Choral/vocal:
*La Damoiselle elue *(for soprano, chorus & orchestra)
*The Martyrdom of St. Sebastien *(a dramatic work for soloists, chorus & orchestra)

Opera: 
*Pelleas et Melisande
*

And I'd recommend watching DG's DVD of the opera as well, with Boulez conducting.


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## EricIsAPolarBear

Debussy is one of my favourite composers. The colours he achieves in both his orchestral works and pieces for solo piano are just remarkable.
I was turned onto classical music by a friend of mine who works as a professor. His favourite composer was Debussy, and he showed me La Mer. From there I was hooked.
On your recommendation i purchased the Zimerman recording of Debussy's Preludes. It is one of my most enjoyable recordings now, and actually may have just got me through this last week of exams.


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## Ephemerid

EricIsAPolarBear said:


> On your recommendation i purchased the Zimerman recording of Debussy's Preludes. It is one of my most enjoyable recordings now, and actually may have just got me through this last week of exams.


 I'm so glad you've been enjoying it, Eric!


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## Rachovsky

The minute amount of compositions I have heard by him have been boring. 

I learned the first section of Goliwogg's Cakewalk in the Children's Corner. It was nice. I liked the bass rhythm.


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## Frasier

Rachovsky said:


> The minute amount of compositions I have heard by him have been boring.
> 
> I learned the first section of Goliwogg's Cakewalk in the Children's Corner. It was nice. I liked the bass rhythm.


A couple of points here:

1) Debussy's music developed in subtle ways across his unfortunately short career. The Wagnerian influences evident in La Damoiselle gave way to what one might term "original" Debussy in L'Apres-midi d'un Faun. But his denial of traditional forms in favour of his own led to a situation where every work (or set of works, eg the Preludes Book 1) had (essentially) a different form. So you possibly do yourself an injustice pronouncing on just a "minute amount".

2) While Debussy is easily approachable these days, his work may not appeal to listeners tied to traditional classical forms. He had no time for such forms nor the harmonies, the progressions etc, that accompanied them. It's easier for a classical musician tied to regular pulses and cadential phrases to appreciate popular music that essentially follows the same "form" (many pop songs can be fitted to the "rondo" form) than Debussy with his irregular phrases; his way of forming melodies from motives and the way they evolved into a form often peculiar to a particular work.

So he may not appeal to you at all!


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## World Violist

The Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un faun is amazing! I absolutely love the "Sirens" movement of the Nocturnes (though I've not really listened to the others); I never thought that a whole TEN MINUTES had gone by until I'd looked at the timer on my MP3 player. I'm convinced that Debussy did that on purpose. 

La Mer is the pinnacle of orchestral music in my mind. I've not heard Pelleas et Melisande, but I will try to get the DVD with Boulez conducting.


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## Edward Elgar

Rachovsky said:


> The minute amount of compositions I have heard by him have been boring.


I find Debussy akin to Ravel in the sense that his genius is misrepresented in popular classics - just listen to more interesting compositions of his like the cello sonata and you're going to love the man!


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## Pianoforte

I can't get enough of Debussy's piano works. His free flowing and unpredictable structures are in complete contrast to the rigid, uniform style of say...Mozart. I listen to piano works by Mozart, Chopin and Debussy a lot and when I spontaniously create something of my own that combines their styles exhileration is an understatement. 

His works exudes a laid-back almost accepting emotion the French are renowned for. I can't think of any other composer who has produced music so influenced by their national identity than Debussy.

In a smiliar vein to the film The Mask where a blind girl visualises colours by holding objects of different textures I think you could make someone who has never visited France 'feel' like they have just by listening to Debussy.

"C'est la vie"


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## World Violist

I'm studying French in school... and Debussy just _fits_ into it seamlessly. The flowing, sensual nature of all of his music is just like the language itself, and the lack of "traditional" climax (of course, an overload of the senses is not generally "traditional" to me) is perfection in itself. Everything is loose, uncontrolled (rather; control is not needed), melodies flowing into and out of each other as effortlessly as water: the music is water. All these things about Smetana's Moldau being the best representation of a flowing river... Debussy shames him easily!


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## Pianoforte

I think his style is so distinct and innovative he should have a form attributed to him.


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## World Violist

Pianoforte said:


> I think his style is so distinct and innovative he should have a form attributed to him.


Only problem with that is that he's the only one that's really used that style really well...


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## fox_druid

I really love Debussy's work. He's the only non-baroque composer I like!
His beauty lies on the unique harmony, the pentatonic-like tune and the calming atmosphere of his song such as the sunken cathedral.

My first encounter with Debussy was his vocal work, Fetes Gallantes no. 2, En Soundie - Clair de Lune - Fantoche
It's amazing how he turned the dissonance into harmony!


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## confuoco

I highly admire this composer like maybe the most innovative, original and unprecedentable (I am not sure if this word exists in English  ) composer in the history of music. He changed course of everything he touched - piano, chamber and also orchestral music. His work is qualitative equal. I don't know any bad piece composed by him.

I like his extremely reachful harmonic language. His works are exceptionaly well balanced, proportional, with high level of aesthetics and fancy.

My favourite works:

*Piano*
Arabesques
Petite Suite
Suite bergamesque
L'Isle Joyeuse 
Preludes

*Chamber*
String quartet
Cello Sonata
Beau Soir

*Orchestral*
Fantasy for piano and orchestra
Rhapsody for clarinet and orchestra
Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune 
Nocturnes 
La Mer
Jeux

and of course Pelleas et Melisande...the most beautiful opera ever

but the most beloved for me is *Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune *


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## PostMinimalist

I love Debussy too. I even orchestrated the whole of the first book of Preludes for string orchestra! I am hoping that the London Chamber Orchestra will include them in one of their 'South Bank' series of concerts next year! 

I find his method of composing for orchestra very interesting. It seems like he wakes up in the morning and asks himself what 'color' will I write today and then painstakingly composes 4 or 8 bars in that color and then stops. This goes on for a few weeks ant then the piece is finished. 

I'm not sure how much he even cares about melodic content when writing like this, just color (or at least color first then everything else like harmony melody dynamic change etc.) His works become very 'terraced' but they somehow have a cohesion despite this constant changing. 

For example (more for the musically literate now and I'm sorry for making the distinction but I will get technical here) in Gigues (first part of Images) it would seem logical to me that he wrote up to the double bar line after figure 1 in one sitting, or at least in one conscious chunk, and then the 'Un peu plus allant' in another single sitting. From figure 3 onwards, where the orchestration gets thicker and more complicated the 'bars-per-day' fall to about 4 or 8. Certainly every four bars from 3 changes color and if I am to judge by my own rate of work (I am a professional orchestrator and composer), the amount of detail and the fact that he was writing in pen, I would guess that these 4bar chunks represent a days (or a mornings or afternoons) work. It is easy to imagine Claude D. getting up and debating over his croissant and coffee which orchestral color he would write that day, rather than whistling the (sorry Claude) quite banal 'Schottiche' melody (in the section from figure 3 right up to just after fig. 12.) to his wife over the breakfast table! 

Does any one have any opinions about this or even know if this is the case or not. I'd love to know if my theory was true.
Fergus


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## confuoco

Warning! I think your idea is quite romantic. About 1909 Debussy detected first symtomps of cancer...next season of life was very difficult to him. He partially lost enthusiasm for composing, that's why *he entrusted André Caplet with orchestration (or finnishing of orchestration) of Gigues* (originally composed by Debussy for two pianos). Up to this day isn´t definite, what from orchestration of Images is work of Debussy and what is work of Caplet.


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## PostMinimalist

Thanks for that information. Perhaps then, Caplet worked in the manner I suggested. But looking at 'La Mer' which is all Debussy's work, there is still the same structural trait. A 'blocking off' into chunks of orchestral tone color. Again those chunks seem to be about a days work for a professional composer, so maybe there is still something here. Take for example the 6/8 section which begins at bar 31; firstly four bars, then six bars with a strange French Horn melody, then 2 bars of ww and tremolando violins swell. This takes us to figure 4 in the score where more color change takes place in 4 bar chunks. It goes on and on. Do you know any thing about how he wrote? I know that Brahms wrote orchestral scores a bar or so at a time in full orchestration, so could the Debussy chunking effect which I describe be a result of this?


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## Frasier

Being fairly acquainted with Debussy's scores (in particular La Mer, Ibéria, Les Nocturnes and Jeux) and also being a composer highly attuned to Debussy, I'd say that he worked in no consistent way. My belief is that he dreamed up most of his music before ever committing it to paper, would often work in 4-stave short score (although he was composing orchestrally, so to speak) - plenty of evidence for that. But little can be found among his letters and comments about his modus operandi, so we'll never know exactly how he worked. We know he was threatened over deadlines; would neglect compositions to finish later and so on. But he seems averse to talking about his own musical methods

His lifestyle impinged on his composing: He liked women, socialising, the Paris cafes, he smoked a little opium had no time for the musical orthodoxy. About the only time he "obeyed the academic rules" was to get to Rome because he knew he had to. As for his evolution of form, unique to him of course, and as far as I can see, unique to each composition (major compositions, at least), that seems to evolve from his use of "Melody" in individual works. I use the word melody with great caution because, apart from a few Franckian melodies that appear in various pieces, La Mer, notably, his thematic material is derived from motifs that develop into new motifs, etc. Hence he rarely repeats anything, never does without some change creeping into the harmony or instrumentation. Jeux best illustrates this but it's visible in La Mer, in fact most of his work.

So if I had to conclude at all, I'd hypothesise a general approach: he composed in his mind, carrying things as far forward as he wanted to, then wrote things down mostly as a matter of clerical procedure when he had time, perhaps at a keyboard; and which might have been completed in logical chunks, maybe not. I dare say, like all composers, he experimented at the piano to try things out, to discover etc. and perhaps when he got to the writing down stage. Maybe he did compose a few things that way.

Incidentally, I've never approved of anyone orchestrating his piano music - his preludes specially - simply because 1) if he wanted them orchestral, he'd have written them orchestrally; 2 - more important - many of the preludes depend on the timbre and colour of the piano alone for their effect. It's impossible to imagine "Brouillards" from Book 2 to ever be for anything than piano. Same with Des Pas sur la Neige - or for that matter, La Fille. Sure, people can orchestrate these things but in doing so, they turn them into different works.


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## PostMinimalist

Thank you for that insight, Frasier. I know how hard it was to not destroy the Preludes while orchestrating them. I went to great lengths to 'translate' pianistic effects into string effects and maintaining the overall atmosphere of each piece (in case you're in any doubt about my string writing I direct you to my recent CD with the London Chamber Orchestra, Music For Strings - http://www.myspace.com/fergcurrie ). 
Five of the Debussy set have been played play professional orchestras - Danseuses, Des Pas, La Fille, La Cathedrale and Minstrels with fine results. Of course they are 'different' from the originals but then apparently there is ahistory of Debussy orchestrating his own piano music (see mention of 'Iberia' earlier in this thread) so I don't feel too guilty! If you like I can send you a pdf of some of the score to examine. I did toy with the idea of doing the second book but as you say, in Bk.2 some things get too pianistic to be transported. And since I am an all or nothing kind of guy I decided to leave them alone. I am however looking at the Brahms Op. 118 piano pieces which I might do for wind ensemble (if I can get a commission!).


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## marie

I really love Debussy. I think that his music is very transparent and has a lot of colors that constantly change. I often think of reflections in water, waves, little rainbow in the air, and tropical fish swimming very quickly. Many of his pieces are very playful and full of joy. 

I have also always felt that his music has some Japanese taste, especially in his small piano pieces. Then I recently learned that he was influenced by Japonism. He was fascinated by Japanese prints. But I still cannot get why his music has a touch of Japanese music when perhaps it would have been very difficult for people in Western countries to have access to any Japanese music at that time.


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## Lisztfreak

Debussy is just perfect! Everyone till now has said how colourful his music is, and it's fascinating that so large a number of people can actually feel it. So all those pentatonics, modes and whole-tone scales are not just fancy spices. They do make his music his.

Elgar mentioned the Cello Sonata. So short and yet so unforgettable. I could listen to it five times in a row without getting bored!

Jeux - his bluest piece
Prélude a l'apres-midi d'un faune - his greenest 
Fantaisie for Piano and Orchestra - this one's burgundy, black, teal and dark gold


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## Lisztfreak

As for orchestrating the Préludes, I always thought _La cathédrale engloutie _would work brilliantly in an arrangement for organ and orchestra - perhaps just strings, double woodwind, timpani and celesta. In any case, the sound of the main theme on the organ is incredible. Especially if you add a low pedal C under the melody.


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## Habib

Haven't heard Debussy's Cello Sonata but his Violin Sonata is good too! Love how he paints pictures which you can imagine. La Mer is one of the best evocations of the sea, perhaps only matched by Britten's Four Sea Interludes from Peter Grimes.


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## World Violist

Habib said:


> La Mer is one of the best evocations of the sea, perhaps only matched by Britten's Four Sea Interludes from Peter Grimes.


I would add to that list Sibelius' Oceanides, but I'm totally with you here.


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## Habib

Yes, World Violist, I agree with you. I have heard Sibelius' Oceanides a number of times (have an LP of it with Beecham conducting the Royal Philharmonic). It's definitely on par with Debussy and Britten.


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## huBelial

Where can I look up all of his work? I've just listened to "La fille aux cheveux de lin" and I'm still in awe.


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## Mirror Image

huBelial said:


> Where can I look up all of his work? I've just listened to "La fille aux cheveux de lin" and I'm still in awe.


This site should help you:

http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/debussy_works.html


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## Sid James

People have hinted at it, but no one has mentioned how his music sounds more 'objective' and less emotional than that of the high Romantics. It's more concerned with the images & colours of nature, for example, than conveying an inner struggle. It's more about the 'here & now' of the 'real' world than the composer's psychological world. I think that this is important, as the movement we call _Impressionism_ was a reaction against the _sturm und drang _of late Romanticism.

Having said that, I'm not devaluing his music, just making a point. I also enjoy his music & agree with what everyone has said. Perhaps he made more psychological insights, and painted less pictures, in his only opera _Pelleas et Melisande_? I remember hearing it on the radio a long time ago, but I can't remember what it was like...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> People have hinted at it, but no one has mentioned how his music sounds more 'objective' and less emotional than that of the high Romantics. It's more concerned with the images & colours of nature, for example, than conveying an inner struggle. It's more about the 'here & now' of the 'real' world than the composer's psychological world. I think that this is important, as the movement we call _Impressionism_ was a reaction against the _sturm und drang _of late Romanticism.
> 
> Having said that, I'm not devaluing his music, just making a point. I also enjoy his music & agree with what everyone has said. Perhaps he made more psychological insights, and painted less pictures, in his only opera _Pelleas et Melisande_? I remember hearing it on the radio a long time ago, but I can't remember what it was like...


Debussy's music wasn't Romantic. It was a counter reaction to that movement. He was truly about doing something radically different with music, and, needless to say, I believe he succeeded everybody's wildest expectations.


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## Edward Elgar

I find it interesing how Debussy was indeed radical, and yet his music was treated with much less hostility than Stravinsky or Schoenberg.

Debussy's music is the musical equivalent of Monet and Stravinsky's music is the musical equivalent of Picasso. Both of these painters are equally appreciated as artists so why is this not the case with the composers? I suppose the eyes are the ears of our time. What we hear is relatively obsolete.

I find the idea of Debussy and Ravel at the premier of _The Rite of Spring_ jumping up and down screaming "GENIUS" hilarious!


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## Mirror Image

If there was one thing I would criticize Debussy for it would be his lack of orchestration. My problem with this is he didn't really mind who orchestrated his pieces. For a composer as great as Debussy, I can't imagine him being so careless about the orchestration of his compositions.

Ravel once said he would loved to have re-orchestrated "La Mer."


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## Clancy

In the spirit of this being his guestbook, I wish to write the great man a personal message:

Dear Debussy,

Why oh why didn't you write more string quartets?

Yours disappointedly,

Clancy


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## Kuntster

I think Debussy is like a long walk to school. 

You do it everyday, it's boring. You know what to do when you get there. 

Eventually, you learn that the routine is not routine anymore, it's practice and it's beautiful.


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## Bach

Mirror Image said:


> If there was one thing I would criticize Debussy for it would be his lack of orchestration. My problem with this is he didn't really mind who orchestrated his pieces. For a composer as great as Debussy, I can't imagine him being so careless about the orchestration of his compositions.
> 
> Ravel once said he would loved to have re-orchestrated "La Mer."


I prefer the orchestration of La Mer to anything Ravel has orchestrated. I think that was rather arrogant of him to say such a thing. He should be in awe of Debussy.


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## Bach

Clancy said:


> In the spirit of this being his guestbook, I wish to write the great man a personal message:
> 
> Dear Debussy,
> 
> Why oh why didn't you write more string quartets?
> 
> Yours disappointedly,
> 
> Clancy


And Bach. You lazy, fat, French plonker.


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## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> I prefer the orchestration of La Mer to anything Ravel has orchestrated. I think that was rather arrogant of him to say such a thing. He should be in awe of Debussy.


Well that's composers for ya. 

I didn't like the comment Ravel made either, but I think Ravel's orchestrations are on such a higher level than anything Debussy did. Sorry, but Debussy's music sounds rather sloppy at times. Does this mean I don't enjoy Debussy's music? Absolutely not, I just prefer Ravel.

Ravel was in awe of Debussy early on when he caught his opera "Pelléas et Mélisande," but Ravel moved on and formed his own style that is really an amalgamation of Baroque, Classicism, Impressionistic techniques employed by Debussy, Spanish music, and jazz.

Debussy and Ravel had a great friendship early on, but unfortunately, the media tore the two apart.

I'm surprised you don't know the history of these two composers better, Bach. Shame on you.


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## emiellucifuge

If any of you have ever studied any of Debussys scores, youll agree with me. At first glance they really do not make sense at all, its as if he just lumps the notes it - but the sound produced is quite magical.

Thats impressionism for you I guess.


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## Mirror Image

emiellucifuge said:


> If any of you have ever studied any of Debussys scores, youll agree with me. At first glance they really do not make sense at all, its as if he just lumps the notes it - but the sound produced is quite magical.
> 
> Thats impressionism for you I guess.


Debussy composed music that dealt with colors and textures more than anything else. His ignited the senses and invoked mental imagery. "Impressionism" during the time of Debussy and Ravel was an insult (and still is to some degree because the term doesn't mean anything really), especially to Debussy who felt that he was trying to do something different with music, which needless to say, he seceded.

I remember reading on a thread here somewhere when somebody said they don't understand Debussy and just hated "Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune," then after they slammed this very beautiful composition they asked "Are there any other pieces you could recommend by Debussy?" I think I replied with something like "If don't like Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune, then you won't like anything else Debussy composed." I still feel this way. That very composition has everything that's great about him wrapped up inside of it.

There's no mistaking a Debussy score. Those woodwind parts, the way the strings kind of swell and fade, the swirling harp's arpeggios, etc. these are all elements of his music that made him the iconoclast he's regarded as today.


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## emiellucifuge

I totally agree with you, he was a great composer.. and as you said he dealt more with the colours and texture while other composers tried to convey something, the common and modern name for this is Impressionism, its found in painting as well.

Because of this however his scores look almost nonsensical and never seem to go anywhere.

But yes, he is great - I prefer La Mer personally


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## Bach

Mirror Image said:


> Well that's composers for ya.
> 
> I didn't like the comment Ravel made either, but I think Ravel's orchestrations are on such a higher level than anything Debussy did. Sorry, but Debussy's music sounds rather sloppy at times. Does this mean I don't enjoy Debussy's music? Absolutely not, I just prefer Ravel.


I completely disagree. Debussy is a consummate orchestrator. The creation of colour in La Prelude is more vivid than anything Ravel orchestrated.

Granted, Ravel is tidier and more 'hollywood' than Debussy - but Debussy's creation of texture is far more interesting and unusual.


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## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> I completely disagree. Debussy is a consummate orchestrator. The creation of colour in La Prelude is more vivid than anything Ravel orchestrated.
> 
> Granted, Ravel is tidier and more 'hollywood' than Debussy - but Debussy's creation of texture is far more interesting and unusual.


You disagree with your own opinion of Ravel's orchestration? All of sudden he's too "Hollywood"? That's not what you have said in the past, Bach. If there's a composer's whose orchestration you don't like you pop up with comments like "I would rather listen to masterful orchestration from Ravel than (insert a composer's name here that you don't like)," or you say "(Insert composer's name) is not even half the orchestrator Ravel was."

You say things like this all the time, but now all of a sudden you call Debussy's orchestration of "La Prelude" more vivid than anything Ravel orchestrated. That's a contradictory opinion coming from you, because you've spent so much time praising Ravel's orchestration. Now....he's too "Hollywood" or not vivid enough for you? I guess you never heard the "Sunrise" scene in Part 3 of "Daphnis et Chloe." That climax is one of the most beautiful moments in music I've ever heard. Not only is the orchestration supreme, but that climax is powerful, heart-wrenching, unfettered beauty incarnate. You would be out-of-your-mind to disagree with this statement.

You've said a lot of things I don't agree with, but this one your way off base.


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## Bach

OH, no. When I said 'Hollywood' I really meant tidy and very well produced (not cliche or dull or anything like that.. probably not the best word to use in retrospect). I think Ravel's orchestration is unparalleled in it's technical craft - but Debussy's is more interesting, daring and unusual. More exotic if you like.. 

I don't disagree with any of your statements. You're misreading me (and I'm expressing myself badly).


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## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> OH, no. When I said 'Hollywood' I really meant tidy and very well produced (not cliche or dull or anything like that.. probably not the best word to use in retrospect). I think Ravel's orchestration is unparalleled in it's technical craft - but Debussy's is more interesting, daring and unusual. More exotic if you like..
> 
> I don't disagree with any of your statements. You're misreading me (and I'm expressing myself badly).


Oh okay sorry for misinterpreting you, Bach.

I also don't want you to get the wrong idea about me, I LOVE DEBUSSY!! Always have, always will. Nobody composed music like him...nobody.


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## Bach

Absolutely. In fact, our mutual love of early twentieth century French composers is something we definitely have in common.


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## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> Absolutely. In fact, our mutual love of early twentieth century French composers is something we definitely have in common.


Yes we do have that in common.


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## Bach

It's a bit of a shame that you're not interested in how that tradition developed later in the C20 (Messiaen Messiaen Messiaen Messiaen) 

Maybe one day. In fact, not maybe. I'm 100% certain. The Turangalîla-Symphonie will be your way in. Guarantee.


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## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> It's a bit of a shame that you're not interested in how that tradition developed later in the C20 (Messiaen Messiaen Messiaen Messiaen)
> 
> Maybe one day. In fact, not maybe. I'm 100% certain. The Turangalîla-Symphonie will be your way in. Guarantee.


Perhaps, Bach you are right. I will give Messiaen another listen sometime and it will definitely be the "Turangalila Symphonie" that I listen to.


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## Bach

I'm quite sure you'll love it. The orchestration is so exotic and fascinating. Even if the harmony is a bit baffling (which it certainly can be) the orchestration should be enough to interest you. Usage of the Ondes Martenot is particularly beguiling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondes_Martenot


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## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> I'm quite sure you'll love it. The orchestration is so exotic and fascinating. Even if the harmony is a bit baffling (which it certainly can be) the orchestration should be enough to interest you. Usage of the Ondes Martenot is particularly beguiling.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondes_Martenot


Ah yes the Ondes Martenot. I saw a clip of somebody in the orchestra playing it during that Messiaen. I wondered "What in the hell was that?" Interesting....


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## Bach

Sometimes in the thick of his unearthly tutti sections you hear the Ondes whirling and screaming above the texture.. it's beautiful.


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## Dim7

Turangalila "symphony" is a really weird aliens-from-space type of work. That's all I can say about it for now, I don't know whether I like it or not. Needs more digesting probably.

But back to Debussy. I actually listened to some Debussy way before I seriously got into classical. The first thing I heard from him was the piano piece L'isle Joyeuse and it's still a very special one for me, my Debussy favorite and perhaps my favorite piano composition ever. I fell in love with its colorful harmonies. The reason I wanted to listen to Debussy was a bit weird actually; I had studied some music theory and I heard Debussy used all kinds of weird/fancy stuff I had learned, like whole tone scales, modes etc. So I wanted to listen what is sounded like in actual music.


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## Weston

Speaking of aliens from space, but in a different vein, I listened to _Prelude to the Afternoon of a Fawn _today and found it reminded me of Alexander Courage's theme music for the old Star Trek show. I'm even starting to think Courage subconsciously borrowed this melody and messed with it only slightly. Or maybe it's just coincidental phrases.


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## altiste

Dim7 said:


> Turangalila "symphony" is a really weird aliens-from-space type of work. That's all I can say about it for now, I don't know whether I like it or not. Needs more digesting probably.
> 
> But back to Debussy. I actually listened to some Debussy way before I seriously got into classical. The first thing I heard from him was the piano piece L'isle Joyeuse ...


Funny to read this comment as I heard _L'isle Joyeuse_ in a concert last week and thought how much some of Messiaen's music seemed like a continuation of this soundworld. As for Turangalila, have heard it twice in concert, the first time in NZ 30 odd year's ago where it evidently came across as overwhelmingly bombastic for lots of folk who got up and left before the work had finished. That was in stark contrast to the second time I heard it in a park in Paris on a summer's evening where it went down as a very cool and groovy piece to have a picnic to.


----------



## neoshredder

Love it. Much easier to listen to imo than many of the Romantic Composers. Baroque is still my favorite but I appreciate Debussy's style of music. Very relaxing.


----------



## Vaneyes

Oh my, what lay ahead for Claude-Achille and Lilly.


----------



## Debussydude

Big fan of Debussy here. Loved him since I laid my ears on Prelude to the afternoon of a faun.
I just wonder if anyone has heard this stunning little vocal piece youtube decide to throw at me one day?




 "Trois Chansons de Charles d'Orléans"
It's sorta like his piano pieces, soft and expressive only more tonal. Ravel(who I also love) made his own Chansons which is also pretty alluring.


----------



## Ravndal

Ah. No one plays Debussy's piano music better than "Paul Crossley". Or impressionism generally


----------



## Head_case

What about Uchida?

I love the Debussy Etudes - for a non-piano lover (ex-piano player *groan*) that's saying something!

I have a version by a German guy - Roland Keller too:










It's out of print now, but I've been listening to that since I was about 8years old (blame the parents). Somebody tell me it's a really bad interpretation lol. There's got to be a reason for my pianophobia (although I actually love this disc).


----------



## Ravndal

Heard little from Uchida. Should check out Paul Crossley though. Or at least Håkon Austbø. They are amazing


----------



## Alie

I love CLaude Debussy's compositoons, they are very tender and touching... My favorite is “Claire de Lune”. I've recently found it in a new for me performance of Maxim Rysanov. The music is astonishing! This and lots of other compositions of french composers like Ravel, Faure and Dubugnon are on his new cd called "Pavane", which I've found at eclassical.com.


----------



## millionrainbows

This is a very nice _reduction_ of "faun." It was done for Schoenberg's Society for Private Musical Performances.

One of my favorite recordings is Richter playing Preludes, Book II:









BTW, to some of you out there, it's "faun," not "fawn." It's not about Bambi, but a more anthropomorphic creature, half-human, half-goat, associated with Pan, who might be horny for nymphs.


----------



## neoshredder

Anyone own this massive collection? I don't see any other Debussy Orchestral Works collection this big. Recommended. Listening to it now on MOG.


----------



## Vaneyes

neoshredder said:


> Anyone own this massive collection? I don't see any other Debussy Orchestral Works collection this big. Recommended. Listening to it now on MOG.


Maybe because Debussy didn't write that much music for orchestra. Much of this is orchestrated by others.

Try Martinon, if he's on MOG. :tiphat:


----------



## neoshredder

Vaneyes said:


> Maybe because Debussy didn't write that much music for orchestra. Much of this is orchestrated by others.
> 
> Try Martinon, if he's on MOG. :tiphat:


True. But for those that want to hear his piano works orchestrated, this is the collection to get (or listen to on Spotify/MOG). And I already own the Martinon one.


----------



## neoshredder

And yes they got Martinon for both Debussy and Ravel. Just type in Jean Martinon under artist and scan down.


----------



## Novelette

Neoshredder, how is the orchestration? 

I happily imagine the orchestral transcriptions of Debussy's piano works to be very heavy on the winds. Or?

Edit: I've never used such a service as Spotify. I think it might just be high time to start.


----------



## neoshredder

Think of it as an extension of Debussy's already made orchestral works. They basically copied his ideas imo. But I'm not sure yet. I just know that Debussy is great for sleep time. This selection is no different.


----------



## Novelette

Goodness, isn't that the truth?

Debussy's music is exclusively night music in my reckoning. At least, it suits the gentleness of the evening well enough. Likewise with Gabriel Faure.


----------



## Geo Dude

I'm starting to build a Debussy collection and would like to know where to go next. I have his complete works on piano by Crossley and Michelangeli's partial set, and have my eye on the Bavouzet; this chamber disc is in the mail and I have the complete orchestral works by Martinon on hand. Where should I go next?


----------



## Mahlerian

Pelleas et Mellisande, conducted by Boulez, then the songs...but I'll let someone else provide recommendations there.


----------



## Vaneyes

Geo Dude said:


> I'm starting to build a Debussy collection and would like to know where to go next. I have his complete works on piano by Crossley and Michelangeli's partial set, and have my eye on the Bavouzet; this chamber disc is in the mail and I have the complete orchestral works by Martinon on hand. Where should I go next?


String Quartet, Parkanyi Qt. (Praga); Piano Trio, Florestan Trio (Hyperion). Additional piano--Etudes, Preludes, w. Paul Jacobs.


----------



## aszkid

Happy birthday!

Malinowski's graphs are beautiful:


----------



## hreichgott

Happy birthday Mr. Debussy. Your Preludes book 1 have made me so happy this year.


----------



## poptart

I recently bought this:









And this:








Can recommend both.


----------



## DeepR

Apparently Debussy once heard Liszt play Au Bord D'Une Source....






must have been influential


----------



## Ravndal

Geo Dude said:


> I'm starting to build a Debussy collection and would like to know where to go next. I have his complete works on piano by Crossley and Michelangeli's partial set, and have my eye on the Bavouzet; this chamber disc is in the mail and I have the complete orchestral works by Martinon on hand. Where should I go next?


Wise choice! Paul Crossley is a living legend.

Check out Debussy's chansons. They are beautiful.

Ariette Oublies
5 Poems de Charles Baudelaire

Veronique Dietschy & Philippe Cassard version is worth checking out.


----------



## Guest

Geo Dude said:


> and have my eye on the Bavouzet;


I can recommend the Bavouzet. I've got four of the five CD set and I think he gets the tempi 'right' (right for me, at any rate) in all the well known pieces.


----------



## starthrower

Ephemerid said:


> *The Afternoon of the Faun *(this piece never ceases to amaze me)
> .


Bernstein's analysis of this innovative work.


----------



## Blake

MacLeod said:


> I can recommend the Bavouzet. I've got four of the five CD set and I think he gets the tempi 'right' (right for me, at any rate) in all the well known pieces.


Yes, Bavouzet's set is remarkable.


----------



## Schubussy

starthrower said:


> Bernstein's analysis of this innovative work.


Thanks a lot for this, I know pretty much nothing about theory and this analysis is fascinating.


----------



## PetrB

Edward Elgar said:


> I find the idea of Debussy and Ravel at the premier of _The Rite of Spring_ jumping up and down screaming "GENIUS" hilarious!


Bumping an old thread here....

Sorry to burst what may be a bubble, but it was Debussy who played (_sight-read, actually!_) the second part of Stravinsky's four hand piano reduction of Le Sacre _with Stravinsky_, Stravinsky wanting to show the work to Debussy.

Ergo, Debussy was first-hand familiar with the score, and if he was hollering "Genius" at the premiere, it was as a player-participant in that very Parisian tradition of "let's riot over an artistic work," and not out of stunned first-exposure surprise.


----------



## shangoyal

It's starting to make sense...


----------



## hpowders

Give me 10 non-classical music folks. Play La Mer for each of them. Ask what the music describes. Bet not one says the sea or the ocean.


----------



## PetrB

hpowders said:


> Give me 10 non-classical music folks. Play La Mer for each of them. Ask what the music describes. Bet not one says the sea or the ocean.


Debussy's only glimpse of 'a sea' was of the Mediterranean when he was a mere boy.

He composed La Mer, a good deal of it anyway, during the summer of 1903 while in a summer residence high in the mountains of France, inland and land-locked. He completed it in the summer of 1905, when visiting the Grand Hotel Eastbourne on the English Channel coast.

The piece is, in form, a symphony in all but name, the title I'm certain while sincere also being a red herring slight of hand to avoid the word "symphony" which was, for Debussy both as a young composer and as a "Frenchman," yet another Germanic tradition he did not want to be thought of as pursuing.

Hollywood weeps! Film At Eleven.


----------



## hpowders

I'm not a Debussy fan and I find La Mer dullsville.


----------



## KenOC

From an early review of La Mer: "The audience seemed rather disappointed: they expected the ocean, something big, something colossal, but they were served instead with some agitated water in a saucer."


----------



## neoshredder

I am a big Debussy fan and I find La Mer a little disappointing as well. He's got better stuff imo. A recommended set to dig deeper into Debussy's repertoire.
http://www.amazon.com/Orchestral-Wo...9625&sr=1-3&keywords=debussy+orchestral+works


----------



## Itullian

Odd man out.
I love La Mer and Debussy.


----------



## musicphotogAnimal

Dear Claude, 

How the hell do you expect people to play "La Cathedrale Engloutie" without DISLOCATING THEIR FINGERS!!!!!?

Sincerely, 

musicphotogAnimal.


----------



## hpowders

musicphotogAnimal said:


> Dear Claude,
> 
> How the hell do you expect people to play "La Cathedrale Engloutie" without DISLOCATING THEIR FINGERS!!!!!?
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> musicphotogAnimal.


Ha! Ha! Rubinstein did it!


----------



## Piwikiwi

I really love his etudes and preludes.


----------



## hpowders

I've never heard the etudes. Better than the preludes?


----------



## Kilgore Trout

Not "better", different : more difficult to grasp as there aren't in them the poetic pictures of the preludes, they are more abstract, but there are beautiful colors and harmonies in them. The second book is beautiful.


----------



## hpowders

Like BMW and Audi I guess.

As long as those etudes are pithy, I'm in!


----------



## Guest

First listen to the Danses Sacree Et Profane! Neat


----------



## senza sordino

I really like La Mer, I do see the sea in this music, the crashing waves etc. But that's the result when a composer titles a work specifically, I can't see anything else.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*Debussy*










_Ja._










_Oui._










_Si._


----------



## Neo Romanza

arcaneholocaust said:


> First listen to the Danses Sacree Et Profane! Neat


That's a seldom discussed work and fine one. My favorite performance of this work is still Boulez on Columbia (Sony).


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> Give me 10 non-classical music folks. Play La Mer for each of them. Ask what the music describes. Bet not one says the sea or the ocean.


Isn't it reasonable to assume that the normal circumstance of hearing such a work is that you know what the title is? Consequently, whilst I'll not bet on 100%, I'd bet on at least 50%.


----------



## hpowders

MacLeod said:


> Isn't it reasonable to assume that the normal circumstance of hearing such a work is that you know what the title is? Consequently, whilst I'll not bet on 100%, I'd bet on at least 50%.


I'm talking about classical music novices who wouldn't have ever heard La Mer. I could draft say 5-10 teenagers who spend most of their time at the mall or on Facebook and play it for each of them and ask them what they think the music represents, each alone, without consulting their friends.


----------



## hpowders

arcaneholocaust said:


> First listen to the Danses Sacree Et Profane! Neat


Yes, I have this.


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> I'm talking about classical music novices who wouldn't have ever heard La Mer. I could draft say 5-10 teenagers who spend most of their time at the mall or on Facebook and play it for each of them and ask them what they think the music represents, each alone, without consulting their friends.


Yes, you _could _load the experiment that way...


----------



## tdc

hpowders said:


> I've never heard the etudes. Better than the preludes?


Actually about a month ago I did recommend the Debussy Etudes to you, in this thread:

http://www.talkclassical.com/8239-there-great-composer-you-76.html

Your response was "_Ahhh finally something I can whistle!_"

I guess they must not have been very memorable to you!


----------



## hpowders

tdc said:


> Actually about a month ago I did recommend the Debussy Etudes to you, in this thread:
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/8239-there-great-composer-you-76.html
> 
> Your response was "_Ahhh finally something I can whistle!_"
> 
> I guess they must not have been very memorable to you!


Still haven't heard them.


----------



## QuietGuy

I recently discovered his Symphony in B Minor, which existed only as a 2-piano piece in his lifetime. It is a good piece, considering that he wrote it when he was 18. Both the 2-piano and an orchestrated version are on youtube.


----------



## hpowders

Still haven't heard the Etudes.

Watch this thread for updates.


----------



## PetrB

hpowders said:


> I've never heard the etudes. Better than the preludes?


They are monumental and fantastic, highly virtuosic and as much again abstract.
Here ya go....





... no good excuses, now


----------



## Morimur

Debussy's music simply sublime.


----------



## hpowders

PetrB said:


> They are monumental and fantastic, highly virtuosic and as much again abstract.
> Here ya go....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... no good excuses, now


Thanks! I'm enjoying that deceptively simple opening of the first etude leading to a virtuosic kaleidoscope of color! 
Very interesting!
Thank you!

I just bought this. I'm experienced enough to know when a performer is giving a terrific performance, even though I'm not familiar with the music.


----------



## FleshRobot

hpowders said:


> Give me 10 non-classical music folks. Play La Mer for each of them. Ask what the music describes. Bet not one says the sea or the ocean.


That's weird. When I play Strauss' Macbeth to non-classical music folks and I ask what the music describes they always say "Macbeth, of course".


----------



## hpowders

FleshRobot said:


> That's weird. When I play Strauss' Macbeth to non-classical music folks and I ask what the music describes they always say "Macbeth, of course".


Yeah. Of course. And when I play Ionisation, my chemistry students shout out "IONS!!!"


----------



## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> *Still haven't heard the Etudes*.
> 
> Watch this thread for updates.


My contender is Boffard. :tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> My contender is Boffard. :tiphat:


Next time. I ordered the Uchida.

Thanks! :tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

My favorite Debussy happens to be L'isle Joyeuse as performed incomparably by the great Sviatoslav Richter.

Enjoy!


----------



## millionrainbows

Debussy was a real radical. He walked out on a Mahler symphony, declaring it "too reactionary." He did exactly what the hell he wanted to do. His music is beautiful, the art speaks for itself, tradition be damned. The guy really understood music, and sound itself. He took music back from the brain, and gave it back to the ear. But that was an old brain, and he replaced it with his. That's what I call a successful brain transplant!


----------



## Blake

I really can't get over how exceptional Bavouzet's Debussy set is. Going through the preludes and it's like little drops of honey. My taste-buds are literally tingling.


----------



## hpowders

I've got so many performances of the preludes. A new set would have to prove really extraordinary for me to add another one.


----------



## Alypius

I would like to see if we get some more sustained discussions going in this section of the forum. So a proposal:

I'm going to post 10 works by individual composers (in this case, Debussy). I'll list them in personal order of preference. I'll follow each with a favorite performance. What I would ask is that when people follow up and respond, they do one of two things:

(a) Argue for alternative works to listen to.
AND / OR 
(b) Argue for alternative / better performances of each.

My interest in this is partly personal and partly pedagogical. The pedagogical part is that when newcomers come and read these threads, it might help guide them to a basic core of must-listen-to works and must-listen-to performances. The personal part is that I might find better performances of personal favorites or get new perspectives on composers whose works I enjoy.

Here's my Debussy list:

*1. La Mer (1905).* Recommended performance: Bernard Haitink / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, _Debussy: Orchestral Music_ (2 CDs) (Philips, 1976)

*2. String Quartet (1893).* Performance: Quatuor Ébène, _Ravel / Debussy / Fauré: String Quartets_ (Virgin Classical, 2008).

*3. Preludes (Bk 1: 1910; Bk 2: 1913).* Performance: Paul Jacobs (Nonesuch, 1978).

*4. Sonata for Flute, Viola and Harp (1915).* Performance: Montreal Chamber Players, _Autour de la harpe: Roussel / Ropartz / Debussy / Ravel / Koechlin_ (ATMA Classique, 2006)

*5. Pour le Piano (1894-1901).* Performance: Jean-Efflam Bavouzet, _Debussy: Complete Music for Piano, vol. 2_ (Chandos, 2007)

*6. Images (for orchestra) (1905-1912).* Performance: Charles Dutoit / Montreal Symphony, _Debussy: La Mer / Images / Nocturnes _(Decca, 1989).

*7. Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune (1894).* Performance: Stéphane Denève / Royal Scottish National Orchestra, _Debussy: Orchestral Works_ (Chandos, 2012)

*8. Children's Corner (1908).* Performance: Jean-Efflam Bavouzet, _Debussy: Complete Music for Piano, vol. 3_ (Chandos, 2008)

*9. Sonata for Violin and Piano (1886).* Performance: Kyung-Wha Chung (violin) / Radu Lupu (piano), _Franck / Debussy: violin Sonatas_ (Decca, 1977).

*10. Nocturnes (for orchestra).* Recommended performance: Bernard Haitink / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, _Debussy: Orchestral Music_ (2 CDs) (Philips, 1976).


----------



## Mahlerian

Another excellent list, of course. Personally, I would replace Nocturnes with *Pelléas et Mélisande (1893-1898)*, in Abbado's recording, and Children's Corner with *Etudes (1915)*, as performed by Mitsuko Uchida.


----------



## hpowders

Except for 2 or 3 of them, I find myself not responding to the etudes. Not that accessible to these ears. I have the Uchida performance. My other qualities are impeccable, however.


----------



## ptr

I think that the selection is fine"

I think Haitink is just chewing La Mer and going no where and Denève in Prélude à l’après-midi d’un faune is fine not fantastic, I'd Replace both with Leopold Stokowski (Decca) as well as the Nocturnes (EMI), he put a little sprinkle of magic into Debussy, music with him always becomes more than its parts!

As for the solo piano stuff, sure Bavouzet is technically amazing, but for an old timer like myself, he lack the intimacy of a legend like Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli (DG) or the superb wizardry of Krystian Zimerman (Preludes / DG) or the blow Your mind to smithereens pianisims of Zoltán Kocsis (Children's Corner / Philips)...

I agree with Mahlerian that Pelléas et Mélisande (1893-1898) should be there, but I'm not sure what work to dump... As for a recording I slightly prefer Charles Dutoit (Decca) to Abbado, but its no biggie, both suffice as a reference version!

/ptr


----------



## joen_cph

ptr said:


> I think that the selection is fine"
> 
> I think Haitink is just chewing La Mer and going no where and Denève in Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune is fine not fantastic, I'd Replace both with Leopold Stokowski (Decca) as well as the Nocturnes (EMI), he put a little sprinkle of magic into Debussy, music with him always becomes more than its parts!
> 
> As for the solo piano stuff, sure Bavouzet is technically amazing, but for an old timer like myself, he lack the intimacy of a legend like Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli (DG) or the superb wizardry of Krystian Zimerman (Preludes / DG) or the blow Your mind to smithereens pianisims of Zoltán Kocsis (Children's Corner / Philips)...
> 
> I agree with Mahlerian that Pelléas et Mélisande (1893-1898) should be there, but I'm not sure what work to dump... As for a recording I slightly prefer Charles Dutoit (Decca) to Abbado, but its no biggie, both suffice as a reference version!
> 
> /ptr


Agree very much concerning Stokowski and Zimerman in particular. In the _Nocturnes_, I´d probably choose Celibidache/DG (extremely broad and slow, mysterious) and for _Prelude a l´Apres Midi_ also Stokowski on Decca (lovely, atmospheric density and melody). As for the other piano works, I find Michelangeli reserved & prefer pianists like Rev, Fergus-Thomson, T´song, and the Debussy-acquainted Daniel Ericourt and George Copeland, for instance.

Here´s old Copeland in a wonderfully free, painterly 1933 "_Prelude a l´Apres Midi_" arranged for piano 



Copeland wiki:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Copeland

In the _Violin Sonata_, the Gitlis/Argerich is perhaps my all-time favourite recording for any work for these two instruments. Improvisatory, Gipsy-like in the playing style, but wonderful, and like no other recording


----------



## Jobis

True originals don't come around too often, Debussy was truly special.


----------



## KenOC

.........wrong thread.................


----------



## shangoyal

His orchestral music is so amazing. Some of my favourites:

Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun
3 Nocturnes
La Mer
Printemps
Premiere Rhapsodie


----------



## deprofundis

Im a Virgin to Debussy works, what should be my introduction to Debussy?, any masterpiece what are is greatest moments?
Any perticular symphony or piano forte? Worth checking out.You probably know my taste for un-orthodox bold avant-garde music

So im looking for this sorta of thing from him.Whit Debussy im gonna buy Erik Satie ''la Gnosienne'' , it's a shame i dont have it yet...


----------



## Mahlerian

If you want the most radical Debussy, check out his orchestral work (originally a ballet) Jeux and his cycle of 12 Etudes for piano. After that, his other late piano works (En Blanc et Noir, Preludes Book II) and Images for Orchestra are probably what you're looking for.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Boulez (musically speaking and as a marketing strategy) once wrote that Nocturnes, La Mer and Jeux make a large scale orchestral tryptic. Listening to those works in succession is indeed quite the experience as one figuration reappears transformed and developed into another.


----------



## aajj

Mahlerian said:


> If you want the most radical Debussy, check out his orchestral work (originally a ballet) Jeux and his cycle of 12 Etudes for piano. After that, his other late piano works (En Blanc et Noir, Preludes Book II) and Images for Orchestra are probably what you're looking for.


Love everything you listed, love almost all of the piano music, but I've always had trouble breaking the shell of the Etudes. They seem so esoteric and I can only hear them from a respectful distance. I've had easier times handling the likes of Schoenberg and Ives.


----------



## aajj

^^^ I gave Etudes another try (Mitsuko Uchida) - it's been a while - and this time i took to about half of them, nos. 1-3, 5, 8, 9 & 11. 

Also, i tend to return to the Cello Sonata and Violin Sonata, again and again. They always sound fresh and adventurous as always with Debussy, even playful in moments. My favorite of the Violin Sonata is Schlomo Mintz/Yefim Bronfman (i also enjoy the one from the '60s with Grumiaux). For the wonderful Cello Sonata, Maurice Gendron/Jean Françaix as well Mischa Maisky/Martha Argerich.


----------



## hpowders

aajj said:


> ^^^ I gave Etudes another try (Mitsuko Uchida) - it's been a while - and this time i took to about half of them, nos. 1-3, 5, 8, 9 & 11.
> 
> Also, i tend to return to the Cello Sonata and Violin Sonata, again and again. They always sound fresh and adventurous as always with Debussy, even playful in moments. My favorite of the Violin Sonata is Schlomo Mintz/Yefim Bronfman (i also enjoy the one from the '60s with Grumiaux). For the wonderful Cello Sonata, Maurice Gendron/Jean Françaix as well Mischa Maisky/Martha Argerich.


I couldn't break through with the etudes. Same recording. I was falling asleep after the first one. Every time.


----------



## Chronochromie

hpowders said:


> I couldn't break through with the etudes. Same recording. I was falling asleep after the first one. Every time.


Have you tried Bavouzet?


----------



## aajj

For the Etudes, seems to help when they are taken a few at a time.


----------



## hpowders

Der Leiermann said:


> Have you tried Bavouzet?


Someone recommended him....until I saw the price!! Fuggetaboutit!


----------



## hpowders

aajj said:


> For the Etudes, seems to help when they are taken a few at a time.


Yeah, like cough syrup!


----------



## Chronochromie

hpowders said:


> Someone recommended him....until I saw the price!! Fuggetaboutit!


Listen to it on Spotify at least.


----------



## Vaneyes

aajj said:


> For the Etudes, seems to help when they are taken a few at a time.


I'm a tightroper, so I do 'em all in one listening session. Boffard's my poison (HM, rec.2000).


----------



## hpowders

I'd rather watch a replay of the entire 2014 Tampa Bay Bucs' season than listen to the complete Debussy Etudes at one sitting.

Hold on....let me think about that one...


----------



## Piwikiwi

hpowders said:


> I'd rather watch a replay of the entire 2014 Tampa Bay Bucs' season than listen to the complete Debussy Etudes at one sitting.
> 
> Hold on....let me think about that one...


Oooooh, so edgy


----------



## Avey

Mahlerian said:


> If you want the most radical Debussy, check out his orchestral work (originally a ballet) Jeux...


_Jeux_ was the second piece I heard by Debussy, never understood it until some time after listening to his other works. An enchanting piece, very alluring, if you will. Also, quite amazing that Debussy does not repeat any material throughout the piece. I may miss a measure here or there, but on my listen, I don't hear repetition at all. It just flows.

The ballet's narrative is so bizarre, however, I wish I could have a visual element, or a more thorough description re how and why this story came about.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I cannot really relate the program (which is pretty lame on itself) of Jeux to the music. I don't know if Debussy really cared about the program or his 'symbolist' means became too perverted in that sense (like Joyce).


----------



## deprofundis

Hello i spotted a buDget title apex cd containing Debussy and ravel notorious work, there most fameous the bolero and la mer ect.
Is it a good recording? since we never know whit these budget title sometime its cheap and the recording is still awesome.I dont have an apex disc yet in my collection but i might pick it up tomorrow, because know i only have a borrow copie from my father of Karajan .Ockay i dont have a problem whit Karajan but i wanna hear another version, who has what im talking about and is it good?, even if you says its bad i might buy it anyway, because i dont have a copie of my own.


----------



## Chronochromie

deprofundis said:


> Hello i spotted a buget title apex cd containing Debussy and ravel notorious work, there most fameous the bolero and la mer ect.
> Is it a good recording since we never know whit these budget title sometime its cheap and the recording is still awesome.I dont have an apex disc yet in my collection but i might pick it up tomorrow, because know i only have a borrow copie from my father of Karajan .Ockay i dont have a problem whit Karajan but i wanna hear another version, who has what im talking about and is it good?, even if you says its bad i might buy it anyway, because i dont have a copie of my own.


Who are the performers? If you want a good Debussy/Ravel orchestral set I recommend the one of their complete orchestral works with Jean Martinon on EMI.


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## Richannes Wrahms

For those who didn't know or simply can't stand Wagnerian opera, I want to inform you that there is a very nice '*Pelleas et Melisande-symphonie*' arranged by Marius constant.


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## Guest

Being "C-time" in the "listen to my iPod" project, I'm naturally enjoying some Claude Debussy.

Particularly, I'm focusing a bit more on some works that I haven't heard much, and that don't seem to get mentioned here much. Including: _Khamma_, _La Boîte à Joujoux_, _La Demoiselle élue_, the _Rhapsody For Saxophone And Orchestra_.

Like Schoenberg and Stravinsky, I suppose he's known for a portion of his work, and yet he's extremely consistent (at least from a certain point...1890ish?)...

...What are your favorite obscure gems of Debussy?

Tooling around on allmusic, I noticed, for instance, _Rodrique Et Chimène_. He seems to have a few other fragments of operas, but this one appears to be complete, and from 1890. Curious, as I think most would think of Debussy as a one-opera kinda guy (Pelleas). Anyone heard it?

Edit: Also, I have most of Bavouzet's Debussy piano works, but I'd be interested to hear about Volume 5, which has piano transcriptions of some of the above mentioned "obscure gem" ballets...


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## Mahlerian

nathanb said:


> ...What are your favorite obscure gems of Debussy?


His songs are excellent, and they cover his whole career: Chansons de Bilitis, Trois poemes de Stephane Mallarme, Fetes Gallantes...

Syrinx for solo flute is another little gem out of an intriguing part of the 20th century repertoire.


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## padraic

Was listening to Simon Trpceski play Debussy today (Arabesque, Children's Corner, Images Books 1 and 2, etc.)

Beautiful.


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## Avey

Obscure or renown, all Debussy is good, simply because he had such a unique style. One of the most obvious sounds to pick up, from radio, background music, etc.

I am uncertain if _Reverie_ for piano is an "obscure" piece, but that is a less noted composition. Also, _Reverie_ was the first piece I heard from Debussy. Also, the first piano piece I heard. Also, the first "classical music" piece I heard, or cared to listen to and appreciate and *recognize*.

Then, it is was all downhill (good thing) from there, as you all can relate.


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## Vaneyes

An article of some scholarly merit (link below), that glosses "the discomforts" of Debussy.

"Debussy was a complicated personality, to say the least-a spoiled misfit who acted on his many impulses, insufferably grumpy, yet charming when he wanted to be. All his life, he made and lost friends with seemingly equal ease. And though he did not treat the women in his life very well, he was mad about his daughter."

https://theamericanscholar.org/great-escape/#.VQc3fI6Jjs0


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## Richannes Wrahms

This is an 'alternative' reorchestration of Printemps, which did originally had a wordless female chorus instead of the pianos (the original score was lost in a fire). I think this one is better than the standard version.


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## Morimur

World Violist said:


> Only problem with that is that he's the only one that's really used that style really well...


Debussy is inimitable.


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## aajj

Vaneyes said:


> An article of some scholarly merit (link below), that glosses "the discomforts" of Debussy.
> 
> "Debussy was a complicated personality, to say the least-a spoiled misfit who acted on his many impulses, insufferably grumpy, yet charming when he wanted to be. All his life, he made and lost friends with seemingly equal ease. And though he did not treat the women in his life very well, he was mad about his daughter."
> 
> https://theamericanscholar.org/great-escape/#.VQc3fI6Jjs0


For a moment i thought you were talking about Brahms. I don't think Debussy should be singled out for this behavior; it's not unusual for highly creative people, including musical geniuses.


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## hpowders

Too bad Debussy couldn't maintain the level of L'isle Joyeuse. I might have been a fan.


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## Rehydration

I love the two arabesques; I like the simplicity and the delicacy Debussy shapes into the curves of the two.
But then again all of his music catches my fancy, whether it be short, charming pieces like the Mazurka or big, booming masterpieces like L'isle joyeuse or Masques.


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## Vaneyes

aajj said:


> For a moment i thought you were talking about Brahms. I don't think Debussy should be singled out for this behavior; it's not unusual for highly creative people, including musical geniuses.


Singling him out? This* is* a Debussy thread. Occupational ill behavior with sociopath percentages...that's for another thread.

I'd like to think the newer, seemingly softer Debussy biographers can uncover some new material, but the results remain unchanged so far.:tiphat:


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## TradeMark

Debussy is my favorite composer.
My favorite pieces are the Preludes, _La Mer_, Jeux, the string quartet, and _pelleas et melisande_, but I pretty much like everything I've heard by him except for some of the really early pieces.


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## Rehydration

I have a book about composers that says Debussy was "cold and intellectual". Is this true? I feel lied to.


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## Mahlerian

Rehydration said:


> I have a book about composers that says Debussy was "cold and intellectual". Is this true? I feel lied to.


As a person, he could be difficult, distant, and cold. The person he cared most deeply about was his daughter. As for his music, it was often criticized as overly intellectual and unnatural during his lifetime, but one doesn't have to take contemporary critics very seriously.


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## Stirling

And to Nocturnes.


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## Sloe

One of the finest composers ever I am always happy when I hear that Debussy will be played and I never get dissapointed. A composer who deserves to be among the most popular composers.


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## Mahlerian

What a stunning performance. I only wish that it weren't interrupted by commentary partway through.


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## Xenakigirl

Mahlerian said:


> What a stunning performance. I only wish that it weren't interrupted by commentary partway through.


I agree, Boulez knows what he's doing!


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## chalkpie

Chronochromie said:


> Who are the performers? If you want a good Debussy/Ravel orchestral set I recommend the one of their complete orchestral works with Jean Martinon on EMI.


I love this set as well.


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## chalkpie

Big Debussy binge right now at the moment. Each time I play Debussy I wonder why he isn't in my top 10 favorite composers, but he should be. Ravel certainly is, but Debussy should be too. The problem with top 10 lists is that you need to be able to fit more than 10 composers in them - I wish you could fit like 17 or 18 in them 

Nocturnes has become one of my favorite pieces by anyone. Just sublime. Preludes too.


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## lextune

chalkpie said:


> Big Debussy binge right now at the moment. Each time I play Debussy I wonder why he isn't in my top 10 favorite composers, but he should be. Ravel certainly is, but Debussy should be too. The problem with top 10 lists is that you need to be able to fit more than 10 composers in them - I wish you could fit like 17 or 18 in them
> 
> Nocturnes has become one of my favorite pieces by anyone. Just sublime. Preludes too.


I guess it shows how subjective it all is. For while Ravel and Debussy were both objectively great composers, I have Debussy in my top 5 and Ravel wouldn't be in my top 20.


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## Pugg

chalkpie said:


> Big Debussy binge right now at the moment. Each time I play Debussy I wonder why he isn't in my top 10 favorite composers, but he should be. Ravel certainly is, but Debussy should be too. The problem with top 10 lists is that you need to be able to fit more than 10 composers in them - I wish you could fit like 17 or 18 in them
> 
> Nocturnes has become one of my favourite pieces by anyone. Just sublime. Preludes too.


Mind you , you can always start now, putting Debussy in your top 10 list.


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## tdc

Debussy and Ravel are both in my top 5.


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## chalkpie

What are some lesser known gems that are your favorites? Thinking outside the usual suspects (La Mer, Jeux, Preludes, Nocturnes, Etudes, etc)? Cheers


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## Bettina

chalkpie said:


> What are some lesser known gems that are your favorites? Thinking outside the usual suspects (La Mer, Jeux, Preludes, Nocturnes, Etudes, etc)? Cheers


I love Debussy's Six Épigraphes Antiques. Very beautiful works, and unfortunately not performed very often.


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## Pat Fairlea

chalkpie said:


> What are some lesser known gems that are your favorites? Thinking outside the usual suspects (La Mer, Jeux, Preludes, Nocturnes, Etudes, etc)? Cheers


D's Cello Sonata is well worth a listen:


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## tdc

chalkpie said:


> What are some lesser known gems that are your favorites? Thinking outside the usual suspects (La Mer, Jeux, Preludes, Nocturnes, Etudes, etc)? Cheers


I agree with the above suggestions, my favorite work you didn't list is the Sonata for Flute, Viola and Harp. I also really like the Petite Suite for piano (four hands) there is a really nice orchestration of it on youtube.

The String Quartet deserves a mention, but I suppose it is one of the usual suspects.


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## Bettina

Here I am again with more obscure Debussy!  This is Debussy's incidental music for a play by Gabriele D'Annunzio, Le Martyre de Saint Sébastien.


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## Vaneyes




----------



## Pugg

Bettina said:


> Here I am again with more obscure Debussy!  This is Debussy's incidental music for a play by Gabriele D'Annunzio, Le Martyre de Saint Sébastien.


Abbado was such a fine conductor.


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## chalkpie

Bettina said:


> I love Debussy's Six Épigraphes Antiques. Very beautiful works, and unfortunately not performed very often.


I am vaguely familiar with this piece, but will revisit. Cheers!



Pat Fairlea said:


> D's Cello Sonata is well worth a listen:


Will do - I don't know it very well. Cheers!



tdc said:


> I agree with the above suggestions, my favorite work you didn't list is the Sonata for Flute, Viola and Harp. I also really like the Petite Suite for piano (four hands) there is a really nice orchestration of it on youtube.
> 
> The String Quartet deserves a mention, but I suppose it is one of the usual suspects.


LOVE both pieces! Thanks for the mentions.



Bettina said:


> Here I am again with more obscure Debussy!  This is Debussy's incidental music for a play by Gabriele D'Annunzio, Le Martyre de Saint Sébastien.


This I don't know at all - will check out. Thanks again.


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## gouts

+1 for his String Quartet. But I think his piano output is just breathtaking, especially those "Dancing Snowflakes"!


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## Pugg

gouts said:


> +1 for his String Quartet. But I think his piano output is just breathtaking, especially those "Dancing Snowflakes"!


Good ear for details.:angel:


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## tortkis

chalkpie said:


> What are some lesser known gems that are your favorites? Thinking outside the usual suspects (La Mer, Jeux, Preludes, Nocturnes, Etudes, etc)? Cheers


Symphony in B minor is a lovely, attractive piece. The opening has a nice melancholic mood. I didn't know that Debussy wrote (or attempted to write) a symphony. Composed at the age of eighteen, it survived only as a score for piano four hands. The orchestration by Tony Finno is very good to my ears.


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## philoctetes

Going through a phase of Germanophobia, I seem to be listening to Debussy daily now, mostly fascinated by the lost sound of early 20c performers - Teyte, Danco, Inghelbrecht - P&M, Jeux, the string quartet, and newer recordings of his songs, with some Hyperion titles (led by Graham Johnson) on the way... Faure and Reynaldo Hahn keep getting more attention as well...


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## Chatellerault

I'll leave the following for your consideration and one of Debussy's "coloured works", in Messiaen's subjective point of view.






Olivier Messiaen: Coloured musicians are, I think, in order, first Monteverdi and Mozart.

- When you speakof colour you mean orchestration for example?

O.M.: No, it means the harmonies, the musical substratum... is coloured. So: Berlioz, Wagner are coloured, Mussorgsky, coloured, Debussy is extraordinarily coloured. Ravel is coloured and modern authors are less coloured.

(...)

O.M.: The serial school have written, perhaps, exclusively about morbid themes with works always staged at night. It's not a coincidence, Erwartung, by Schoenberg, it's in the night and a horrible subject, a woman finding her lover's corpse.

- And you can add Wozzeck and...

O.M.: Many other masterpieces, it can't be denied, but _noir _masterpieces.


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## Michael Diemer

After perusing some of the posts here on what makes Debussy's music so attractive, I certainly agree that his use of color, harmony and Eastern scales are a big part of his appeal. I would add that he was strikingly original. He simply thought in a different way about music. Impressionist painting - he disliked his music being called impressionistic, as is well known - was another influence. He was a composer who worked backwards in a sense, from effect to cause. That is, he first seems to have thought of how he wanted his music to affect the listener, and then figured out how to make that happen. Impressionist painters also were looking to create an emotional state in the listener. Feelings, emotive experiences, were paramount. (You like impressionism because of the way it makes you feel, rather than how "real" the painting is. Impressionists knew that what we see is only an approximation of what is actually "out there" anyway.) But it is also evident that improvisation played a big role, especially in his piano music. Inevitable, as he was an excellent pianist. You see it especially in the Preludes. But there is something else, in addition to all this. As groundbreaking as his music was, he was still a tonal composer. Embedded in even the most daring of his music are little sudden passages that can only be described as charming, delightful. I think it is this unique marriage of the charming and the exotic that gives his music such distinctiveness. Sometimes the charm is the whole piece, as in Reverie and the other lighter works which will forever delight listeners and performers. The Suite Bergamasque is full of it (charm, I mean). In Children's Corner Suite, we see the charm sandwiched in between dizzying passages (the scales in the opening movement), or emerging out of the pure coloristic effects of the Dancing Snowflakes. But if I had to sum it all up, I would say I love Debussy's music - especially his piano music - because it just makes me happy. It makes me smile. And that goes a long way in this noisy, unpleasant world we find ourselves in.


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## Michael Diemer

tortkis said:


> Symphony in B minor is a lovely, attractive piece. The opening has a nice melancholic mood. I didn't know that Debussy wrote (or attempted to write) a symphony. Composed at the age of eighteen, it survived only as a score for piano four hands. The orchestration by Tony Finno is very good to my ears.


What a wonderful discovery on my first day here on the forum! I had no idea this was out there. You can hear some of the youthful exuberance of the Piano Raphsody, and here and there a little something that says somehow, "This Is Debussy." And what superb orchestration! I am inclined to think that the master would approve. But, then we are talking about Debussy. No telling how that inscrutable genius might react...

I wonder who the two other young gentlemen are? One could almost pass for Ravel, but the age difference is too great, n'est-ce pas?

Thank you for posting this!


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## eugeneonagain

Michael Diemer said:


> I wonder who the two other young gentlemen are? One could almost pass for Ravel, but the age difference is too great, n'est-ce pas?


From the video description: "Debussy is sitting on the floor, next to Pyotr Danilshenko (a violoncellist) and Ladislas Pashulsky (a violinist), both friends of Nadezhda von Meck, Tchaikovsky's devoted sponsor".

Debussy was acquainted with her (don't know how) when she stayed in Europe.


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## Michael Diemer

eugeneonagain said:


> From the video description: "Debussy is sitting on the floor, next to Pyotr Danilshenko (a violoncellist) and Ladislas Pashulsky (a violinist), both friends of Nadezhda von Meck, Tchaikovsky's devoted sponsor".
> 
> Debussy was acquainted with her (don't know how) when she stayed in Europe.


If I'm not mistaken, the young Debussy actually went to stay awhile with her. He may have given piano lessons while there.

Addendum: From wikipedia:

During the summers of 1880, 1881, and 1882, he accompanied Nadezhda von Meck, the wealthy patroness of Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, as she travelled with her family in Europe. The young composer's many musical activities during these vacations included playing four-hand pieces with von Meck at the piano, giving music lessons to her children, and performing in private concerts with some of her musician friends.[13] Despite von Meck's closeness[citation needed] to Tchaikovsky, the Russian master appears[to whom?] to have had minimal effect on Debussy.[citation needed] In September 1880 she sent his Danse bohémienne for Tchaikovsky's perusal; a month later Tchaikovsky wrote back to her: "It is a very pretty piece, but it is much too short. Not a single idea is expressed fully, the form is terribly shriveled, and it lacks unity." Debussy did not publish the piece, and the manuscript remained in the von Meck family; it was eventually sold to B. Schott's Sohne in Mainz, and published by them in 1932.[14]


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## DebussyMe

*Debussy, my favorite composer*

Debussy is my favorite composer since I've red the book Clair de Lune by Pierre la Mure - a brilliant biography of Debussy, which I recommend to everyone. My favorite composition is Reverie, because it's the best proof, as if it was needed, that Claude Debussy was the master of creating dream-like atmospheres in his piano music.


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## Larkenfield

Particularly fine performance...


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## Listenerris

Debussy is one of my favorite composer too. But it is difficult performer and needs mush training.
p/s/ She is light dressing in so great palace.


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## flamencosketches

^I definitely concur with that. I never cared much for his piano music until recently, when I heard Walter Gieseking's recordings. It is hard to get it right. Now I realize all his stuff is great. 

Anyone here familiar with his chamber music? I only really know the string quartet, but it's great. Wondering if the other stuff is as good. I know he didn't write all that much in this genre.


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## tdc

flamencosketches said:


> Anyone here familiar with his chamber music? I only really know the string quartet, but it's great. Wondering if the other stuff is as good. I know he didn't write all that much in this genre.


Yes, definitely check out the late chamber pieces - the Cello Sonata, Violin Sonata and Sonata for Flute, Viola and Harp. These works were all composed in a surge of creative energy in 1915, and are some of his best work.

There were originally six of these sonatas conceived (probably meant to be played in succession), with the 6th featuring all of the instruments from the preceding 5 sonatas. The 4th sonata was intended to be a work for oboe, horn and an 18th century clavecin with two keyboards, (would've been the first work of the modern era to use that antique instrument), the 5th was to be for trumpet, clarinet, bassoon and piano. This leads one to believe that 6th sonata may have possibly been a keyboard concerto.

Unfortunately Debussy didn't get around to finishing this chamber sonata cycle, but the first 3 he left us are masterpieces.

Earlier today I finished reading a book on Debussy - _Afternoon of a Faun_ by Harvey Snyder. A good read, quite a sad, yet moving ending. I finished this book on March 25, which earlier I realized is the 101 year anniversary of Debussy's death.


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## flamencosketches

Is Debussy the ultimate modernist? He completely subverted almost every aspect of music at the time: melody, rhythm, harmony, tone color (this one for sure, though he drew a lot from Wagner here), form, etc; while remaining totally listenable, very accessible (to a contemporary sensibility, anyway: maybe 50 years down the line we'll be saying the same thing about Webern--but I doubt it) and often even beautiful in a classical sense. Did he get something right that some later composers (and the few contemporaries who were on his level) missed the mark a bit? Am I onto something or totally full of it? Over a century down the line his music still sounds totally revolutionary to my ears, but nothing about it doesn't make sense. True genius, like Beethoven-level. For all that, though, his body of work is somewhat lacking in stone cold classics compared to some of the big names of earlier times; but that could be attributed to his perfectionism and resultant relatively small output.


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## tdc

flamencosketches said:


> Is Debussy the ultimate modernist? He completely subverted almost every aspect of music at the time: melody, rhythm, harmony, tone color (this one for sure, though he drew a lot from Wagner here), form, etc; while remaining totally listenable, very accessible (to a contemporary sensibility, anyway: maybe 50 years down the line we'll be saying the same thing about Webern--but I doubt it) and often even beautiful in a classical sense. Did he get something right that some later composers (and the few contemporaries who were on his level) missed the mark a bit? Am I onto something or totally full of it? Over a century down the line his music still sounds totally revolutionary to my ears, but nothing about it doesn't make sense. True genius, like Beethoven-level. For all that, though, his body of work is somewhat lacking in stone cold classics compared to some of the big names of earlier times; but that could be attributed to his perfectionism and resultant relatively small output.


I think you have some very good points, I don't have all the answers to the questions this post brings up and it probably goes beyond the scope of this thread. I do agree that he is Beethoven-level genius, and would also add I don't think it is fair to compare the volume of his great works with composers of previous eras. Different age, different aesthetic, different musical goals. If we compare the number of great works he has with other composers working in his age then we see he is not lacking in this area, at all.


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## Mandryka

I very much like the 10th piano etude.

Someone here made a post in praise of _Liber Scintillarum_ (Ferneyhough) but you know, I think that formally, this etude is just as fresh, continuously fresh.


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## flamencosketches

I found a copy of this CD brand new at the record store the other day and bought it for $5. I've never heard of this pianist, Werner Haas, nor his companion on a few of the piano duet pieces, Noël Lee. I haven't gotten to that second disc with the duets so I can't speak on Lee, but Haas is a pretty damn fine pianist in the repertoire of this notoriously difficult to nail down composer. I can hardly find any information on him. Are there any fans of his here?

This is not the disc I've been listening to, but it must have been recorded around the same time (1960s):


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## paulbest

Its *average*..Even average performance of Debussy beats out quite a few other composers solo piano, even at the finest recordings. 

Topic for a new discussion? 

Composers who beat the odds = even a poor performance can't hold down the beauty of the work = the sun shines even on a cloudy day,,,if you know what I mean....


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## tdc

^ That Werner Haas recording has grown on me, in particular _Hommage á Rameau_ it is one of my favorite Debussy pieces, and my preferred interpretation of it is by Haas.


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## paulbest

WElll you might want to consider you are listening to a poor rendition...I just got back from YT visiting some of my favs.
Gieseking's suffers from old distorted sound,,,yet he has some beautiful phrasing. 
Roge, I'll pass on.

Bavouzet's, I thought/assumed,, MIGH BE tops,,,but it was not, His Ravel is exceptional and wins out over Thibaudet, But here in Hommage a Rameau,,Thibaudet takes prize over Bavouzet and in fact, may be the finest,,,no I will say it,,,Thibaudet's Hommage is the finest on record.
Listen how he takes it as Debussy scored and intended it would be performed. Apparently he spent considerable time studying closely the masters recording,,that of Gieseking,,whereas Bavouzet falied to do so.
Thibaudet takes it as intened by the composer (as can be heard also in Gieseking, which is a confirmation)),,so wispfully,,,allowing the notes to rise softly, gently , nothing rushed not HAP HAZARDLY,,,,very poetic and colorful, perfect pauses, entrances, perfect pedaling and perfect piano choice for Debussy...This is actually a surprise to me this morning,,,as I gave up on Thibaudet's Ravel...I once had his Debusy, but sold it off yrs ago.

Now takes with caution,,I only visited his Hommage a Rameau,.,,,,I can not speak for all the other selections,,,as we all know, Debussy is perhaps the most dif of all piano writing to make a success on one recording,,,each piece requires a dif approach and though not near as tech dif as Ravel, the poetics are even more dif than the Ravel works. = Debussy is near impossible to *get right* ,,,especially, as I said, in a complete set

The only pianist I've known to accomplish this feat, is the Gieseking,,,yet is not acceptable due to UNFORGIVABLE SOUND ENGINEERING.


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## flamencosketches

^Werner Haas studied with your (and my) beloved Gieseking. Maybe you should give him another chance.

I still have yet to check out Bavouzet much but I've heard good things. I love Thibaudet.


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## tdc

paulbest said:


> WElll you might want to consider you are listening to a poor rendition...I just got back from YT visiting some of my favs.
> Gieseking's suffers from old distorted sound,,,yet he has some beautiful phrasing.
> Roge, I'll pass on.
> 
> Bavouzet's, I thought/assumed,, MIGH BE tops,,,but it was not, His Ravel is exceptional and wins out over Thibaudet, But here in Hommage a Rameau,,Thibaudet takes prize over Bavouzet and in fact, may be the finest,,,no I will say it,,,Thibaudet's Hommage is the finest on record.
> Listen how he takes it as Debussy scored and intended it would be performed. Apparently he spent considerable time studying closely the masters recording,,that of Gieseking,,whereas Bavouzet falied to do so.
> Thibaudet takes it as intened by the composer (as can be heard also in Gieseking, which is a confirmation)),,so wispfully,,,allowing the notes to rise softly, gently , nothing rushed not HAP HAZARDLY,,,,very poetic and colorful, perfect pauses, entrances, perfect pedaling and perfect piano choice for Debussy...This is actually a surprise to me this morning,,,as I gave up on Thibaudet's Ravel...I once had his Debusy, but sold it off yrs ago.
> 
> Now takes with caution,,I only visited his Hommage a Rameau,.,,,,I can not speak for all the other selections,,,as we all know, Debussy is perhaps the most dif of all piano writing to make a success on one recording,,,each piece requires a dif approach and though not near as tech dif as Ravel, the poetics are even more dif than the Ravel works. = Debussy is near impossible to *get right* ,,,especially, as I said, in a complete set


Well actually the Thibaudet is very good. However, what I like about the Haas, is the drier sounding recording and less rubato. These things are personal preference. Thibaudet brings out the harmonies of the chords more clearly in certain places which is interesting, and I like what he does in parts of the middle section, he creates a nice atmosphere, though perhaps again using a little more rubato than I would prefer in some sections. All in all still an excellent performance. But the Haas is still my preference on this piece, but the Thibaudet comes close.


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## Guest

Me, I'm very happy with Bavouzet.


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## paulbest

Having the Gieseking set on LP's, this was the only recording accessible for yrs,,,so his style is placed firmly in memory,,,all others are heard against Gieseking;s. I could not like Hass back in the 80's, and still not today, I even prefer EMI's horrible sound over Philips on the Hass, the piano sounds aweful, unless the YT upload suffers distortion,,,not sure. 

You know what,,,I researched Debussy recordings a few months ago,,,and arrived at Bavouzet as my favorite,,,...I have it on wish list,,just waiting for the complete set to be offered at a price I can budget.


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## millionrainbows

My favorite is still "Richter at Spoleto," since I imprinted on the vinyl, way back. Debussy's music fit perfectly with the widespread cannabis use at the time.


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## philoctetes

I got Richter at Spoleto on MR's rec, years ago... but I'm surprised at all the Debussy talk and no Michaelangeli...


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> My favorite is still "Richter at Spoleto," since I imprinted on the vinyl, way back. Debussy's music fit perfectly with the widespread cannabis use at the time.


Damn straight. 

Richter's Debussy is something else. Damn shame he didn't record more of it.

@Paul that is where we differ then. I think his piano sounds great. But then I have a great bias and preference for the Philips sound. Personally I find that the younger pianist learned much from his master, Gieseking, although he takes a little bit of a different approach.

Any love for Alexis Weissenberg? I came upon his Debussy by chance too. I'm a fan of his more dry and angular approach to this music.






One acclaimed pianist that I really don't care for in Debussy is Angela Hewitt. I'm not a big fan of her Ravel either.


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## millionrainbows

philoctetes said:


> I got Richter at Spoleto on MR's rec, years ago... but I'm surprised at all the Debussy talk and no Michaelangeli...


It was a green cover, on Turnabout, correct?

That friggin' bell ringing as he walks out...it was a trip, wunnit? Koff....sssssssskkk! here go...cough cough...


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## philoctetes

millionrainbows said:


> It was a green cover, on Turnabout, correct?
> 
> That friggin' bell ringing as he walks out...it was a trip, wunnit? Koff....sssssssskkk! here go...cough cough...


I have the CD with the tower on the cover... the bell ringing is a nice bonus...

"Debussy's music fit perfectly with the widespread cannabis use at the time"

But now it's for winos...


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## paulbest

philoctetes said:


> I got Richter at Spoleto on MR's rec, years ago... but I'm surprised at all the Debussy talk and no Michaelangeli...


No I do care for Michaelangeli 's idiosyncrasies


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## philoctetes

paulbest said:


> No I do care for Michaelangeli 's idiosyncrasies


Translation please....


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## paulbest

philoctetes said:


> Translation please....


Yeah, back in the early 1980's we were all blown away by Michaelangeli's Ravel and Debussy,,,I loved, adore his Debussy on the LP's, listened every day,,,Now we have better and I have no interest to return to any of his records. 
You like him as a legendary figure, fine. 
Neither Argerich while we are on the subject of *legends*


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## Larkenfield

If anyone knows the name of this pianist, thank you, I'd like to know... I like these performances because they don't break the magic spell of these imaginative and inspired gems that are like floating on a cloud. What an exquisite ear Debussy had for sonorities, colors, impressions and moods!






I can appreciate anyone losing interest in certain pianists or composers, but not the apparent ingratitude for the pleasure they brought at the time.

One of the YT listeners said, "my Grandma plays this to her plants."  I loved that.


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## paulbest

I've seen that vid,,and I too was very curious,,,so I had to do trial and error,,,took me some time,,,but as I already had known almost every Debussy record in print,,,not as long a time as it would others here,,,and you may not ever ger the answer, unless I post it...
It is

ALDO CICCOLINI

As you corre4ctly point out, his playing is ,,~~different~~~ he gives breath and charm to every single note,,,however this can result in some lack of forward movement, tempos a bit off, if we compare it to Gieseking's mastery ..

You seem to be aware these slightly idiosyncratic performances, may not rank as the finest,,,yet all the notes are clear, crisp, and are gently coaxed out of the piano


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## paulbest

Here is Ciccolini in Arabesque 1,,,a piece I love so much,,and had found the ultimate performance,,,but now can not recall which it was..
Anyway, this is the only YT upload which states *this is Ciccolini playing* and it is via this arabesque which I used to pin down the mystery pianist in your posting of the YT vid


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## philoctetes

Mentioning a pianist doesn't mean I'm a fan... but I just put Lortie's Ravel on Spotify and like the Pavane right away... His Liszt was not bad too...


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## Josquin13

Werner Haas was probably best known for his complete Debussy LP box set on Philips, which won a Grand Prix du Disque in 1970, and his Ravel, which won the Edison prize in 1970. Those were the two most prestigious classical awards in those days, along with the Deutscher Schall Platten Preis. But, to put Haas' Debussy in some perspective, a year later in 1971, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli won all three awards--the Grand Prix du Disque, the Edison, and the Deutscher Schall Platten Preis--for his DG recording of Debussy's Images Books 1 & 2, and Children's Corner. That remains one of the 'classic' Debussy piano recordings in the catalogue, IMO, and is easily the finest of the three Debussy recordings that Michelangeli made for DG. It's also my personal benchmark for the Images, along with Ivan Moravec's recording on Vox Cum Laude, and Zoltan Kocsis on Philips. (Livia Rev was excellent in this music, too, on Hyperion.) What impresses me most about Michelangeli's Images, apart from his many subtle insights into the score, is that he was able to achieve an unusually clear and distinct separation of musical lines, to the extent that his Debussy can, at times, sound like two pianos. Indeed Michelangeli's piano shimmers, but with little to no use of the pedal:





Moravec: 



Kocsis: 




As for Werner Haas, I prefer the other Haas, French pianist Monique Haas--who studied with Lazare Lévy and Robert Casadesus--and especially her DG Debussy recordings & earlier discs, when she was in her prime: 



. Both Francis Poulenc and Henri Dutilleux praised her piano playing highly. Interestingly, Haas was an early champion of Debussy's neglected Etudes (at the time), and her DG recording won a Grand Prix du Disque: 




However, Werner Haas and Noël Lee were excellent in the two-piano and four-hand Debussy works, and their recording won a Rosette award from the old Penguin Guide. In addition--for comparative listening--I also like Françoise Thinat & Jacques Bernier, Alfons & Aloys Kontarsky (who were brothers), Philippe Cassard & François Chaplin, Noël Lee's later digital survey with pianist Christian Ivaldi on Arion, and historically, Monique Haas & Heinz Schröter, and the husband and wife team of Gaby & Robert Casadesus, who were all excellent in Debussy's two-piano and four-hand piano music.

Lee & Ivaldi: Debussy: Intégrale de l'oveuvre pour 2 pianos et 4 mains: 




Françoise Thinat & Jacques Bernier: the Images for orchestra, transcribed to piano by André Caplet: 



Alfons & Aloys Kontarsky: En blanc et noir, 2 pianos, L. 134: 



Gaby & Robert Casadesus: En blanc et noir, L. 134: 



Monique Haas & Heinz Schröter: En Blanc et noir, L. 134:



Philippe Cassard & François Chaplin:




Prélude à l'aprés-midi d'un faune: 




Since you ask, flamencosketches, you might be interested to know that Noël Lee was a Chinese born American who studied with composer Walter Piston at Harvard, and then with Nadia Boulanger in Paris in 1948 and after that, he chose to reside in Paris for the rest of his life. Boulanger wrote that Lee was "one of the finest musicians I have ever met", which is, of course, no small praise. Apart from being a wonderful pianist, whose recordings won many Grand Prix du Disques, Lee was an interesting and I think underrated composer:


















In addition, Lee had a good reputation as a accompanist, and was part of a duo with violinist Gérard Poulet (with whom he made excellent recordings of the Debussy, Ravel, Pierne, & Faure Violin Sonatas, etc.), and accompanied various French singers in French mélodies, such as baritone Bernard Kruysen, François Le Roux, and soprano Anne-Marie Rodde. While I may ultimately prefer other singers in this repertory (such as Véronique Dietschy, Anne Sofie von Otter, Maggie Teyte, Elly Ameling, Gerard Souzay, Jacques Jansen, & Victoria de los Angeles), I do still listen to these recordings, and partly because of Lee's piano playing, which I find fascinating. To me & I think many others, he was a musician's musician.

Lee & Poulet: 



. Interestingly, Poulet's father was Gaston Poulet, the violinist that Debussy wrote his last work, the Violin Sonata, for, and Poulet gave its premiere in 1917. Poulet later taught his son, Gerard, the sonata "in every detail"--which derived from discussions he'd had with Debussy (& advice that he'd given Debussy, in return)--see the following Gramophone review: https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/debussypiernéravel-sonatas-for-violin-and-piano*

Lee & Kruysen:
Faure: 



Ravel: 




Lee & Rodde: 




While Lee championed a good deal of 20th century music, including the music of Bartok, Stravinsky, Ives, Carter, & Barraqué, my favorite recording by Lee remains his 1960s cycle of the complete Debussy solo piano music for the Valois/Naive label. The sound quality isn't ideal (though it's not bad), as it's AAD, however, Lee's Debussy playing is never less than imaginative & insightful:





Debussy's Etudes: 




Finally, here's a 1993 radio interview with Lee, by Bruce Duffie (whose website contains a treasure trove of valuable interviews with musicians, conductors, & composers--many of whom are, sadly, no longer with us): http://www.kcstudio.com/lee2.html

If anyone's interested, here's a list of some of my favorite Debussy pianists over the decades, in addition to Lee, M. Haas, Michelangeli, Kocsis & Moravec--I've also liked the Debussy playing of Nelson Freire, Michel Béroff (& I tend to prefer his later Denon cycle to his early EMI recordings), Jacques Rouvier, Jacques Février, Claude Helffer, Claudio Arrau, Michel Dalberto, Paul Jacobs, Françoise Thinat, Miceal O'Rourke (a student of Debussy's friend, Marcel Ciampi), Samson François, Tamas Vasary, Kathryn Stott (another Ciampi student), Emil Gilels, Catharine Collard, Håkon Austbø, Georges Pludermacher, Philippe Bianconi, & Alain Planes. Historically, there are of course many more, & yes, I'm nuts about Debussy (& Ravel) ... such as George Copeland (whose Debussy playing the composer liked enormously & complimented), Harold Bauer (who Debussy asked to premiere his Children's Corner), Marcel Ciampi (who Debussy worked with on the Preludes), Lazare Lévy, Ricardo Viñes, Marcelle Meyer (who Debussy also coached in the Preludes), Debussy's own piano rolls, Yvonne Lefébure, Madga Tagliaferro, etc. As for Walter Gieseking, I'm a fan of his Schumann, Brahms, Grieg, and Mendelssohn playing, but I feel that some of his Debussy is slightly overrated: For me, there are better & more interesting recordings of the Preludes on record, and as you say, the sound quality isn't good. (In his interviews with Joseph Horowitz, pianist Claudio Arrau mentioned that Gieseking could be quite erratic on the concert stage, and I think that extended over to his recordings, as well, to varying degrees. Although when Gieseking was 'on' he was extraordinary, as Arrau pointed out.) IMO, Gieseking was at his best in Debussy's Suite Bergamasque, and for me, that was one of his great recordings: 




Among today's pianists, lately I've been enjoying the Georgian pianist Nina Gvetadze's Debussy, and she is very well recorded, too:




https://www.amazon.com/Nino-Gvetadz...e+debussy&qid=1559668845&s=music&sr=1-1-fkmr0

As is Nelson Freire on his superb Decca CD: 




And Håkon Austbø in his excellent Debussy cycle on Simax: 




P.S. By the way, if anyone's interested in purchasing Michelangeli's Images Books 1 & 2, I've collected most of the issues over the years, and IMO, the best remaster to date has been Universal Eloquence's Ambient Surround Sound Imaging, or AMSI remaster--which is near ideal and superior to DG's efforts, at least to my ears. However, it was only ever available in a 6 CD Eloquence box set of Debussy's solo piano music, which is hard to find now: https://www.klassikakzente.de/eloquence/musik/debussy-klavierwerke-elo-183358, and partially (i.e., two Images) on an Eloquence Michelangeli compilation CD: https://www.klassikakzente.de/eloquence/musik/brahms-chopin-debussy-159710. The next best remaster is a 2008 Japanese reissue: https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%89%...ges+shm&qid=1559665785&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmr0. Otherwise, I'd recommend either of the following two DG releases: https://www.amazon.com/1971-Arturo-...debussy+images&qid=1559664212&s=music&sr=1-11 and https://www.amazon.com/Preludes-Ima... debussy+images&qid=1559664212&s=music&sr=1-1, and would advise you to avoid the 1986 DG CD release, which derives from the earliest days of the CD technology & it shows: https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Imag... debussy+images&qid=1559664212&s=music&sr=1-2


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## flamencosketches

Excellent post as always Josquin :cheers: My knowledge of Debussy pianists is nowhere near extensive enough to contribute valuably, so I'll just say that I am also a big fan of that Moravec Vox Cum Laude disc with the Images and Estampes. It's my favorite recording of the Images. He was a phenomenal and, I think, underrated pianist, and he really shines in Debussy. 

I like Michelangeli's Debussy Préludes, but for some reason I'm never totally blown away like I often am hearing some other pianists play Debussy. Maybe I'm just not a huge fan of the Préludes themselves, or maybe I just need to keep listening. I need to get more into Samson François' Debussy, as I LOVE his Ravel and Chopin. Debussy is obviously a totally different composer, but those 3 might make up a Godhead of some sort, at least in terms of piano music


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## Josquin13

Yes, Moravec's approach to the Images is quite different from Michelangeli's, as he uses more pedal effects, & the interpretation is more 'impressionist' I think (but equally beautiful), so it's valuable to have both recordings, for the contrast. But, as I wrote above, it's important to find an acceptable remaster of Michelangeli's classic Images recording, in order to fully appreciate his pianism, as the early 1986 DG CD remaster wasn't good (even though I suppose these things are to a degree stereo system dependent).

Michelangeli's Preludes Book 1 is interesting & very good, but somewhat bone dry, interpretatively (others have called it 'aloof'), and I wouldn't consider it one of my top 2 or 3 picks for these works. Nelson Freire, Monique Haas (on DG), Miceal O'Rourke, Claudio Arrau, Yvonne Lefébure, Jacques Rouvier, Catharine Collard, and Michel Beroff (on Denon) are all better, & more perceptive, IMO. Michelangeli's style of playing works much better in the Images & Children's Corner, where he really shines. As for his Preludes Book 2, the sound quality is digital and it's the best of his three DG Debussy recordings, engineering-wise, but I've never been entirely won over by the performances, either, and I don't think its as good as his Preludes Book 1. I know that Michelangeli was drinking heavily in his later years, and perhaps that had something to do with it. I don't know.

Samson François's Debussy can be slightly erratic, too, I think (he was another pianist that had alcohol & possibly drug problems in his final years). Generally, I tend to prefer Francois's Ravel & Chopin playing, but much of his Debussy is wonderful, such as his Reverie, for example: 



.

I expect you can explore most of the Debussy pianists that I've mentioned above on You Tube, if interested, including Debussy's own piano rolls, which are utterly fascinating & essential for Debussy fanatics (like myself). For me, it's been an enriching experience to explore them all over the years.

One pianist that I forgot to mention above is Radu Lupu, who is one of the finest Debussy pianists I've heard in concert. Unfortunately, Lupu has chosen not to record Debussy in the studio, except for the Violin Sonata, with Chung, but you can catch his live performances of the Preludes Book 1, for example, on You Tube: 



. When heard live, Lupu has the most beautiful piano touch, as he never pounds the keys like so many of the younger pianists today, and it can work exceptionally well in Debussy's music (that is, if the live recording is acceptable). He's also unusually imaginative in this music.

Which reminds me, I could say much the same thing about Gian Luca Cascioli's Debussy Preludes--which are imaginative, too, and arguably played in a more modern bent (like Paul Jacobs): 



.


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## Josquin13

One more post--the following is one of my favorite Debussy box sets (released by the Heritage label), in superior remasters to Claudio Arrau's earlier Philips CD recordings (IMO), and like on the original Philips LPs, Heritage has caught Arrau's uniquely beautiful piano tone in Debussy more faithfully and realistically than on the previous Philips CDs, and I've never seen it for under $20 new, on Amazon, as it is now (& it's out of print): https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Work...s=arrau+debussy&qid=1559687816&s=music&sr=1-1

I also wouldn't want to be without Jacques Rouvier's remastered Denon set, which I've likewise returned to a lot over the years: https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Comp...Rouvier+debussy&qid=1559688009&s=music&sr=1-4

I recall that one of the critics at the Penquin Guide in the 1980s thought Rouvier's Preludes compared favorably to Arrau's, and I tend to agree.


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## Larkenfield

...............


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## Larkenfield

Josquin13 said:


> One more post--the following is one of my favorite Debussy box sets (released by the Heritage label), in superior remasters to Claudio Arrau's earlier Philips CD recordings (IMO), and like on the original Philips LPs, Heritage has caught Arrau's uniquely beautiful piano tone in Debussy more faithfully and realistically than on the previous Philips CDs, and I've never seen it for under $20 new, on Amazon, as it is now (& it's out of print): https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Work...s=arrau+debussy&qid=1559687816&s=music&sr=1-1
> 
> I also wouldn't want to be without Jacques Rouvier's remastered Denon set, which I've likewise returned to a lot over the years: https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Comp...Rouvier+debussy&qid=1559688009&s=music&sr=1-4
> 
> I recall that one of the critics at the Penquin Guide in the 1980s thought Rouvier's Preludes compared favorably to Arrau's, and I tend to agree.


Josquin, if you don't mind my asking. How big is your album collection and where do you keep it? Just curious. PS. What's your address? Best wishes!


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## paulbest

Josquin13 said:


> One more post--the following is one of my favorite Debussy box sets (released by the Heritage label), in superior remasters to Claudio Arrau's earlier Philips CD recordings (IMO), and like on the original Philips LPs, Heritage has caught Arrau's uniquely beautiful piano tone in Debussy more faithfully and realistically than on the previous Philips CDs, and I've never seen it for under $20 new, on Amazon, as it is now (& it's out of print): https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Work...s=arrau+debussy&qid=1559687816&s=music&sr=1-1
> 
> I also wouldn't want to be without Jacques Rouvier's remastered Denon set, which I've likewise returned to a lot over the years: https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Comp...Rouvier+debussy&qid=1559688009&s=music&sr=1-4
> 
> I recall that one of the critics at the Penquin Guide in the 1980s thought Rouvier's Preludes compared favorably to Arrau's, and I tend to agree.


I have rouvier in Ravel,,,its good, not sure if it is my top 3 ranking,,,,,I will pass on the Rouvier in Debussy...Francois, does take a unusual interpretation in Ravel,,,my guess his Debussy as well takes liberties, apart from the master reference record, that of Gieseking. Though he has incredible tech displays,,,,he often departs too far from Gieseking.

I do not like Arrau, neither Michaelangeli.


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## paulbest

What do you think about Collard in Debussy,,,though not complete.

I thought it was a keeper


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## Josquin13

Larkenfield writes, "Josquin, How big is your album collection and where do you keep it? Just curious."

Hi Lark--I've never actually counted my collection, but it must be in the 1000s, especially if you include my old LP collection. That's what happens when you buy several recordings a month for nearly four decades, they pile up! I suppose I tend to listen to music like some people read books. It's such a passionate interest. However, these days I reserve most of my listening hours for the car.

My collection isn't quite as gigantic as it may sound, at least not across the board. Since in the past two decades, I've tried to limit myself more exclusively to my favorite composers. For example, it's been one of my goals to hear every note that Claude Debussy ever composed, and the same is true for Maurice Ravel. (Which I thought I had accomplished with Debussy, but then scholars keep finding new works--such as the piano piece that Debussy composed in exchange for coal during WW1, and alternative versions of certain mélodies.) Presently, & not surprisingly, my goal is to hear every note that Josquin Desprez composed (including his disputed works), but frustratingly, Josquin's opus hasn't all been recorded yet (last I checked). So, I'd say that the majority of my purchases are now centered around Josquin, Dufay, Ockeghem, and the other Burgundian and Franco-Flems (as part of an ongoing pursuit), as well as on a small group of other favorites, such as Debussy, Ravel, Handel, Sibelius, & a handful of others.

However, every so often I'll discover a composer that is new to me, whose music I find myself suddenly eager to explore in depth. For example, in recent years, I've been listening to the music of the modern Scandinavians (as you may have noticed), such as Valen, Holmboe, Kokkonen, Rautavaara, Pettersson, Lindberg, Nørgård, etc., but also to 19th & 20th century French & Belgian composers, such as Koechlin, Magnard, Roussel, Jongen, Jolivet, etc., which is another period of interest. All to the exclusion of much else!: including opera and many composers that I'm not as interested in as I used to be, or have now collected enough recordings by for one lifetime: such as Mozart & Bach, whose music I used to listen to virtually everyday, but don't do so on a regular basis anymore. (Although of course I still listen to Mozart & Bach!)

Therefore, when people ask for recommendations about composers that I've explored so intensively, I'm able to give them what I believe is an excellent overview & thorough list of top recordings, both past & present--sort of like providing a Schwann catalogue entry with added commentary & suggestions; since I've collected & heard such an unusually large amount of recorded music by these composers. (I've also usually read a fair number of critical reviews, too--from IRR, Gramophone, BBC, Penguin Guide, etc..) On the flip side, I've additionally bought more than my fair share of clunkers, or mediocre to poor recordings, too; which I sometimes try to steer people away from, if I can. All of which means that I've listened to an enormous variety of different interpretations & approaches, and sound recordings, which I hope is of value and a helpful resource to others, especially those looking to newly explore music by the same composers & musical eras that I've spend so much time with. That is my intention, at least. But perhaps I go too far?

Of course, I don't own the same quantity of recordings of music by other composers; that is, those outside my special areas of interest. I also do a fair amount of my comparative listening on You Tube (for free), & have the radio on, too. So, I'll often recommend recordings that I've heard, but don't actually own. However, I don't mean to downplay the size of my collection!--it's huge!, I admit, and sprawling out of control.

Where do I keep it all, you ask? Well, I'm planning to build a house at some point in the future, but not, you may be relieved to hear, to solely store my CD & LP collection!, but rather to live & work in. Although I do hope that I'll be able to afford a music room that is large enough to accommodate my CD & LP collection, a stereo system, and a piano, if possible. That's the plan, at least.

In the meantime, I have a small storage unit, where I keep a lot of my 'stuff', including a good number of CDs & LPs in boxes, along with books, etc.. I've also got CDs stashed under the bed and in closets, and basically, wherever I can find extra space, as well as on plenty of CD shelves, which of course give easier access to my most treasured recordings & favorite music (or whatever I'm currently into). As you can probably tell, I don't like downloading, as I'm old-school in that respect & rather set in my ways. (I prefer to own the actual product!) Nor do I apparently like getting rid of CDs & LPs, either, unlike some of the wiser people around here!

But my residence isn't as bad as that of a late composer friend, whose dining room table and guest bathroom were stacked to the limit with CDs--covering & spilling out from everywhere! Nor have I had to build a special wing onto a house yet, like one of our old friends on Amazon did, with his wife's blessing, as I recall, or perhaps she had given him an ultimatum... It's actually not such a bad idea to have a separate space for one's music ... perhaps I could build a space above a garage...

P.S. So when I get my house built, yes, come and rob me... (a joke, I hope!). Otherwise, once you've broken in, you'll need a considerable amount of time to figure out where I've stashed all my CDs, as I can't remember myself some days, & my storage unit keys, wherever they are, and plenty of dog treats for my little 'rescue' pooch who's either super sweet or the terror of the neighborhood (and yes, she will bite you, as she doesn't like males), and of course bring a good sized U-Haul!


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## Josquin13

Paul Best asks, "What do you think about Collard in Debussy,,,though not complete. I thought it was a keeper."

Yes, I like Jean-Philippe Collard (who gave me my introduction to Ravel & Faure in the 1980s). He's part of a terrific generation of French pianists that included Michel Béroff, Pascal Rogé, Catharine Collard, Michel Dalberto, Jacques Rouvier, Anne Queffelec, and Dominique Merlet. I like them all, especially in the French repertory. However, I think of J.P. Collard as having been more strongly focused on the piano works of Ravel and Faure (and perhaps Saint-Saens), which he recorded in their entirety (unlike Debussy): recordings that, btw, I think tend to get underrated these days. One negative is that EMI hasn't done a very good job of remastering Collard's 1970s & 80s analogue recordings (at least, they're not recent remasters, as EMI is so stingy about remastering their 1970s/80s catalogue, which I've found frustrating). As mentioned, I once owned Collard's Ravel & Faure on LP, and to my ears, they sounded better than they do on CD today. But these things are stereo system dependent, too, I suppose...

As for Jacques Rouvier's Ravel, I agree, it's very good, but again, his Ravel was recorded very early in his career, before Rouvier had even signed with Denon, and the Calliope sound engineering was AAD, which isn't optimal. Let's face it, having first class sound quality is especially important and nice to have in such richly imaginative piano music. Personally, I'd love to see Rouvier record another complete Ravel set, but this time in 'state of the art' audiophile sound. (& I know he's still playing well, as I just listened to him yesterday, playing Bach keyboard concertos with David Fray, on this remarkable new CD: https://www.amazon.com/Bach-concert...david+fray+bach&qid=1559860187&s=music&sr=1-1). If only I ran a record company....

Speaking of good sound quality, have you heard pianist Håkon Austbø's new Ravel set, on Simax? I think it's excellent, and you can presently listen to it for free on Austbø's You Tube site (if you can take Googles now relentless, obnoxious advertising): 




Another Debussy box set that I've liked is Michel Béroff's cycle on Denon: which he made when he had returned to the piano after many years away due to a hand injury (as I find his Debussy playing richer, & more insightful here than on his much earlier EMI Debussy, recorded in the 1970s, even though his technique may not have been quite at the same level):





https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Comp...s=michel+beroff&qid=1559861136&s=music&sr=1-2


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## Manxfeeder

flamencosketches said:


> I need to get more into Samson François' Debussy, as I LOVE his Ravel and Chopin.


I'm a fan of Samson Francois, but his Debussy didn't do it for me. I hope you listen to some YouTube/Spotify tracks before you dive into a purchase. Of course, his interpretations of Debussy may be what you're looking for.


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## flamencosketches

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm a fan of Samson Francois, but his Debussy didn't do it for me. I hope you listen to some YouTube/Spotify tracks before you dive into a purchase. Of course, his interpretations of Debussy may be what you're looking for.


Good call and you're not the first I've heard that from. I've only heard from him Images, which I liked. A reason why I thought he might excel in Debussy is that he plays Ravel in a much more impressionistic manner than many players... ie. he almost plays certain Ravel pieces as if they were by Debussy. Of course, that doesn't mean he plays Debussy well, necessarily. Maybe I'll stick with his Chopin (still much that I need to hear there) and his Ravel, which I listen to every day these days... just got done listening to him play the two piano concertos with Cluytens and the Conservatoire Société... phenomenal recording, and a performance full of spirit... and then stick with some of the many other great Debussy pianists who have been mentioned in this thread and elsewhere.

I listened to a bit of François-Joël Thiollier playing Debussy the other day. Liked what I heard. Any fans of his here?

This thread is becoming far too dominated by discussions of Debussy's piano music...  can someone recommend me a recording of Pelléas et Mélisande? It's a work I've been meaning to get acquainted with for a long while now. I was thinking Karajan as I've heard his recording before in entirety and liked it, but perhaps someone else has an idea for comparative listening?


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## Josquin13

flamencosketches writes, "This thread is becoming far too dominated by discussions of Debussy's piano music... can someone recommend me a recording of Pelléas et Mélisande?"

First, I wouldn't recommend Herbert von Karajan's Berlin Pélleas et Mélisande, even though I think Karajan was often at his best in opera. The reason being that his interpretation is heavily Wagnerian (or at least Karajan's sensuous, string heavy idea of Wagner), and I don't think that's what Debussy intended for his opera. As he wasn't under Wagner's spell by 1900-1--considering that, in 1903, he described Wagner's music as a "beautiful sunset that was mistaken for a dawn", but had instead found his own voice and formed a unique, new musical aesthetic, which was a lot more influenced by Javanese Gamelan music than Wagner's operas. (Indeed, Pélleas was composed at the same time as Debussy's Estampes, which rhythmically breaks free of all the western rules, & yet totally works!!) Previously, Debussy's close friend, Erik Satie--who was a major influence on Debussy (& Ravel)--had made a rallying cry to French composers to consciously avoid copying Wagner, as Ernest Chausson had done with his Wagner-like opera, Le Roi Arthus (& Symphony), but to instead compose operas that were distinctly French in character & text. In fact, the idea for an opera on Maeterlinck's play had originally been Satie's, who made the mistake of mentioning to Debussy that he intended to compose a suitably "French" opera on the subject, and Debussy liked the idea, and finished his Pélleas before Satie had even started (fortunately, for us).

At the opposite end of the spectrum from Karajan's wrong-headed view of the opera is Charles Dutoit's ultra cool & precisely conducted Montreal version--where you hear Debussy's full score in greater clarity & detail, but arguably stripped of its more romantic and passionate or emotive elements, & there is definitely human emotion or feeling in this music (as Baudo finds it in the score, and brings it out beautifully). Therefore, for me, Dutoit goes a bit too far in the opposite direction from Karajan--although, in general, his Debussy is preferable to Karajan's conception of Debussy as a 'Wagner-composer'.

Other than the 'classic' mono Pélleas recordings from conductors Andre Cluytens, Jean Fournet, Désiré-Émile Inghelbrecht, Ernest Ansermet, and Roger Desormiere, which are arguably the best of all, the finest recordings I've heard from the modern stereo/digital era are (1) Serge Baudo's analogue version on Eurodisc & RCA, with its all-French cast--if you can find it at a reasonable price (it was once a bargain reissue), (2) Claudio Abbado's digital recording with the Vienna Philharmonic on DG, and (3) Pierre Boulez's DVD, also put out by DG (& 4--Dutoit's):

1. Serge Baudo: Unfortunately, Baudo's Pélleas isn't on You Tube, but his recording of Marius Constant's suite arrangement from the opera is, and it should give you a good taste of Baudo's excellent Pélleas (& Debussy) conducting: 




2. Claudio Abbado, Vienna Philharmonic: 




3. Pierre Boulez, Welsh National Opera Orchestra, on DVD (though I've not heard Boulez's earlier Covent Garden CBS/Sony recording, with soprano Elisabeth Söderström--a singer that I much admire: https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Pell...lez+pelleas&qid=1559871439&s=gateway&sr=8-1):




https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Pell...ateway&sprefix=debussy+pelleas,aps,164&sr=8-2

By the way, Abbado's Pelleas is the recording of choice in two of DG's bargain box sets. This one, which I have, is recommendable--as box sets go; although I see that it's not as inexpensive as it used to be (I bought it for around $35 new): https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Clau...ebussy+works+DG&qid=1559865224&s=music&sr=1-3

I've not heard Rattle's recent hybrid SACD London recording, but it has received some favorable reviews.

IMO, generally speaking, the best Debussy conductors of the digital era are--Serge Baudo, Jean Fournet, Charles Dutoit, Claudio Abbado, Pierre Boulez, Michael Tilson Thomas (especially his LSO Le Martyre de saint Sébastien, & Jeux on Sony, but not so much in SF), and Bernard Haitink. While Yan-Pascal Tortelier, Armin Jordan, & Andre Previn have made some good Debussy recordings, too (especially Previn's beautifully languorous "Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un faune", with the LSO: 



).

(From the pre-digital era, I'd recommend exploring the Debussy of Andre Cluytens, Jean Martinon, Ernest Bour, Jean Fournet, Charles Munch, and Leopold Stokowski; plus, that of Ravel student Manuel Rosenthal & Debussy's friend Désiré-Emile Ingelbrecht, if you don't mind the lesser sound quality; while Eugene Ormandy had a great orchestra in Philadelphia that played Debussy's music exceptionally well (but unfortunately, I'm not overly keen on Ormandy's Debussy conducting), and for certain works, such as Pélleas, Ernest Ansermet.)

My 25 cents.


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## paulbest

WE could talk for days on ravel's piano solo/recordings.

I am a avid collector in ravel's solo piano,,also orch.

Perlemuter re-recorded , released 1996, recorded 1973 on Nimbus. 
Sound engineering is a ZERO out a possible 10 stars,,,Performance, thus, is hard to judge,,,Pity,,,may have been a keeper,,,Like Gieseking's EMI late 50;s, high distortion levels will keep me away fromm a masterful record.


I just can't believe Nimbus make such a UNFORGIVABLE error. The brits are the world's very worst sound engineers,,,,I HATE british sound speakers, amps, etc..Here on Nimbus, its a a complete failure ,,why didn;'t they call in the French to make one record and the german's another,,,and this way they could take time and decide who has the superior recording,,,but oh no,,,typical british ego attitudes,,,*Ohh I got this ,,don;'t worry, it will be super sound...*. Wrong, its a complete failure,,,Are you listening Mr Nimbus? 


Anyway, we still have many, at least 5 great recordings of the possible 20.

The Austbo, is OK,,,but again , the sound is dreadfully compressed. With ravel sound engineering needs to be perfect..and most important , the timber, tones of the piano. It is either both or 1 or the other,,,but sound is off = performance will suffer. 


I am listening through $20 comp speakers,,but after 8 yrs of comp speakers,,i can tell whats going on,,,I have my French tube amp, tube pre, tube CD player + SEAS Thor speakers all coming out the shop tomorrow. 
Amp alone weighs in at 80+ lbs. 
Has 12 KT 90's power tubes. + Bugle Boys on the pre section. 


On Pelleas , I usually go with Desormiere's 1940's record,,,Ingelbrecht was stunned at his handling of the orch,,and so tried as best to emulate the master's performance. Which is good, but its not Desormiere. 

Yes, I do dump cds,,,I give them away to my brotherinlaw, who loves any cd. He has no qualms about any performance,,,For him, its only about the music,,,He is from Central America, where cds are very expensive and rare,,so he's happy with the gifts,,and this makes me feel ,,,good,,,a few though,,I do dump in the trash can,,,,= composers/recordings I feel belong right there. 


Nice chatting with you


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## flamencosketches

@Josquin, I was going to say Abbado but the snippets I heard seemed to be in pretty rough shape, recorded-sound wise. Perhaps the uploader compressed the music too severely, but it reminded me of the Abbado/Vienna Wozzeck which is in similarly poor audio, so perhaps it's just bad engineering...? Curious what you think of the sound on that one. 

Going to also check out the Boulez offerings, a conductor I can usually trust. 

Personally, I liked the Wagnerian affectation of the Karajan Pelléas that I heard. Debussy may have said that about Wagner being a sunset etc. but I believe he was much more inspired by him than he let on. Having studied several of his scores, he probably learned everything he knew about opera from Wagner. That being said, of course, he brought other influences to the table and that is what makes him one of the greats, not slavish devotion to Wagner. 

In any case, I wouldn't quite call the interpretation wrong-headed, even if it's not to one's taste. Personally speaking. But of course this is far from the only way to perform the music. I'd love to hear some of the classic French recordings (I'm especially a fan of Cluytens), but they seem to be difficult to find on CD.


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## millionrainbows

I put the "applause" in because the bell riging with Richter's footsteps is a major part of the thrill. 1967!!!!


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> I put the "applause" in because the bell riging with Richter's footsteps is a major part of the thrill. 1967!!!!


I must get this CD....


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## millionrainbows

This was the original LP cover.


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## flamencosketches

Who are some good young Debussy pianists? Most of the great ones are dead or really old. I know Seong Jin Cho, young winner of the 2015 Chopin competition, has recorded some Debussy. I’ve not heard it, but his Chopin is halfway decent. 

Outside of him, who else is even recording Debussy these days? I’m really trying to get up on young, living musicians.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Who are some good young Debussy pianists? Most of the great ones are dead or really old. I know Seong Jin Cho, young winner of the 2015 Chopin competition, has recorded some Debussy. I've not heard it, but his Chopin is halfway decent.
> 
> Outside of him, who else is even recording Debussy these days? I'm really trying to get up on young, living musicians.


Mariangela Vacatello, Élodie Vignon, Roland Pontinen, Hiroko Sasaki


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## flamencosketches

Nice, I’m not familiar with any of them. I’ll have to give them a listen.


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## flamencosketches

@MillionRainbiws, I got that Richter CD. Excellent Debussy (and Schumann for that matter).


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## Janspe

flamencosketches, I know you asked for young performers so apologies for offering something a bit older but...

...Uchida's Debussy études are to _die for_. Don't know if you've heard them yet but if you haven't, you're in for a treat. It's one of those recordings that one simply has to hear.


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## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> flamencosketches, I know you asked for young performers so apologies for offering something a bit older but...
> 
> ...Uchida's Debussy études are to _die for_. Don't know if you've heard them yet but if you haven't, you're in for a treat. It's one of those recordings that one simply has to hear.


I have! Funny, I just got done writing a post about Mitsuko's Debussy Études in the current listening thread. She is phenomenal with these.


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## Mandryka

She's good, very good. But Mariangela Vacatello is very gooder. And Roland Pontinen isn't chopped liver either.


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## Pat Fairlea

Mandryka said:


> She's good, very good. But Mariangela Vacatello is very gooder. And Roland Pontinen isn't chopped liver either.


I'll put in a vote for Pontinen, too. And Mitsuko Uchida playing almost anything that requires precision of touch.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> She's good, very good. But Mariangela Vacatello is very gooder. And Roland Pontinen isn't chopped liver either.


Does she have CDs for sale, etc? I can't seem to find much other than live videos from competitions. I'll have to check out some of these.

Edit: Disregard that, I found something. I was listening to her Debussy études on the Brilliant Classics youtube page. Not bad, but I definitely like Uchida much better. But I'll keep her on my radar.


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## Josquin13

flamencosketches writes, "@Josquin, I was going to say Abbado but the snippets I heard seemed to be in pretty rough shape, recorded-sound wise. Perhaps the uploader compressed the music too severely, but it reminded me of the Abbado/Vienna Wozzeck which is in similarly poor audio, so perhaps it's just bad engineering...? Curious what you think of the sound on that one. "

I don't recall the sound quality being "bad" on Abbado's recording. I thought it was fine, but I wouldn't consider it top audiophile quality, either. I agree with you that You Tube isn't always the best place to gauge sound quality, as I've heard excellent recordings that didn't sound nearly as good on You Tube, and vice versa. I should point out that Abbado was a fine Debussy conductor (if not always very French sounding), but he recorded Pélleas with the Vienna Philharmonic, & that's not an orchestra whose sound is generally associated with French music, or Debussy. So that may be a bit of a negative.

flamencosketches writes, "Going to also check out the Boulez offerings, a conductor I can usually trust."

What I like about Boulez's conducting is the textural clarity that he brings to scores. With Boulez, you hear the whole score. What I dislike about his conducting is his occasional lack rhythmic verve, as Boulez doesn't always 'dance' as expressively as the music requires, which can diminish his full range of orchestral colors. I also think that Boulez could be too objective in his conducting at times, and maybe the two go together. However, Boulez was usually first rate in Debussy. Lately, I've especially liked his Jeux on DG, for instance, which is a difficult work to conduct well: 



. (By the way, you might be interested to know that Boulez was also the only scholar/musician to compile a performing edition of Debussy's Le Martyre de Sans Sebastien that includes every note Debussy composed for D'Annunzio's five-act play. Regrettably, Boulez never recorded his final edition of Le Martyre, as far as I know, but conductor Thierry Fischer did, with the BBC Welsh S.O., and it was once offered as a BBC magazine monthly CD--which can still be found on Amazon UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Martyrdom-...fischer+debussy&qid=1560013016&s=music&sr=1-3 )

flamencosketches writes, "Personally, I liked the Wagnerian affectation of the Karajan Pelléas that I heard. Debussy may have said that about Wagner being a sunset etc. but I believe he was much more inspired by him than he let on. Having studied several of his scores, he probably learned everything he knew about opera from Wagner. That being said, of course, he brought other influences to the table and that is what makes him one of the greats, not slavish devotion to Wagner.

In any case, I wouldn't quite call the interpretation wrong-headed, even if it's not to one's taste. Personally speaking. But of course this is far from the only way to perform the music. I'd love to hear some of the classic French recordings (I'm especially a fan of Cluytens), but they seem to be difficult to find on CD."

Well, I partly disagree. I don't think it's entirely a matter of taste or opinion--although there are plenty of Karajan fans out there that think he was idiomatic in everything that he conducted. I don't, and certainly not across the board. In regards to Pélleas, as mentioned, I don't hear it as a distinctly Wagner influenced opera. That's not what Erik Satie called for, and at that stage in his career, Debussy was more under Satie's influence than Wagner's. Nor do the best French conductors interpret the score as Wagnerian, either, but rather as a strangely exotic and orientalist early modern opera. I'm not saying that there aren't traces of Wagner in the opera or any merits to Karajan's reading--on its own terms it's good, but I do think that Karajan's view of Debussy is misconceived, especially in relation to those conductors that had ties back to Debussy and his musical world.

I hear a much stronger Wagner influence in Ernest Chausson's orchestral music, than in Debussy. Have you heard Chausson's opera, Le roi Arthus? That seems to me to be considerably more under Wagner's spell than Pélleas. So too is Chausson's Symphony in B flat major, and probably even more so than his Arthurian opera:










In those two works, I believe we can see clearly what exactly Satie was reacting against (and rightfully so), when he made his rallying cry to French composers to stop copying Wagner (as Chausson had done). I also think that Debussy took Satie's battle cry seriously. Again, I'm not saying that there aren't Wagnerian influences in Pélleas, as there are, but it's more subtle than with Chausson--where Wagner-like passages jump out at you, and I find myself thinking, "Did he lift that phrase directly from Tristan?".

I agree that Debussy was eclectic in his influences, and that in his early formative years he was deeply impressed by Wagner's music, and that it was an important influence on him (along with Palestrina, Chopin & Liszt). There's no question about that. But, at the same time, Debussy was one of the truly seminal bridges between the late Romantic era and the modern 20th century, and in that respect, he was totally right and prescient to see Wagner's music as a "beautiful sunset", since, if we omit Schoenberg, the coming modern era wouldn't emerge out of Wagner's music. Indeed, Wagner was not a "beautiful dawn" as many had thought at the time, according to Debussy, but rather a "beautiful sunset". While the actual "dawn" was Debussy's music. He, & not Wagner, changed the course of music in the early 20th century, & that transformation had already begun to take place when Debussy composed his Pélleas et Mélisande in 1901. In fact, I'd claim that it began as early as 1889-90. Whatever influence Wagner may have had on Debussy's compositional style up to that point, it began to dissipate with Debussy's 1890 Fantasie for Piano and Orchestra--which isn't at all Wagnerian, but rather marks the beginning of Debussy's early modern style: 



 ). And, from thereon the influence became increasingly less so, as Debussy grew into his mature period, culminating with his Trois Nocturnes, La Mer, Jeux, and Khamma (orchestrally speaking).

Bearing that in mind, I think listeners tend to drastically underestimate the most vitally important influence on Debussy as a composer between 1890 and 1918, and that was his experience listening to Javanese Gamelan music. In 1900, Debussy had, for the second time in his life (or possibly third), attended performances of Javanese Gamelan music at the Paris Exposition Universelle (his first experience coming in 1889, or possibly as early as 1887). At that time, in 1900, Debussy finally heard a much larger Gamelan orchestra than he had in 1889, and that experience was a revelation to him. Here is what Debussy had to say about Gamelan music in a 1913 article that he wrote:

"There used to be--indeed, despite the troubles that civilization has brought, there still are--some wonderful peoples who learn music as easily as one learns to breathe. Their school consists of the eternal rhythm of the sea, the wind in the leaves, and a thousand other tiny noises, which they listen to with great care, without ever having consulted any of those dubious treatises. Their traditions are preserved only in ancient songs, sometimes involving dance, to which each individual adds his own contribution century by century. Thus Javanese music obeys laws of counterpoint which make Palestrina seem like child's play. And if one listens to it without being prejudiced by one's European ears, one will find a percussive charm that forces one to admit that our own music is not much more than a barbarous kind of noise more fit for a traveling circus."* (* Taken from "Debussy on Music", translated by Richard Langham Smith, page 22.)

In other words, what had impressed Debussy so profoundly about Gamelan music was that it was created by listening "with great care" to nature and the eternal order of the world and cosmos. He saw Gamelan music as deriving from "the eternal rhythm of the sea, the wind in the leaves, and a thousand tiny noises..." This new, profound revelation--that music could directly stem from the cyclical and percussive rhythms of nature and the cosmos, as opposed to some "dubious" western musical treatise--had a profound effect on Debussy's compositional style thereafter, and would become a core part of his changing musical aesthetic. I admit that the Gamelan influence may be more evident in Debussy's piano music (as the piano is a suitably percussive instrument), but the revelation that Debussy experienced while listening to Gamelan music radically changed how he saw music, and that transformation is an integral part of most of his subsequent works thereafter. Again, it didn't begin in 1900, but rather after Debussy's first experience with Gamelan music in 1889, and from that point on the influence grew dramatically, as Debussy developed it into his own unique musical language.

After hearing Gamelan music in 1889, Debussy indeed became less and less interested in following western rules, which he'd never been comfortable with, starting with how obstinate he was towards his composition professors at the Conservatoire de Paris and their disapproval of his innovative thinking, and later as indicated by Debussy's description of western musical treatises as "dubious" and his characterization of European music (which included Wagner & the German Romantic tradition) as "not much more than a barbarous kind of noise more fit for a traveling circus"--in comparison to Gamelan music. That shouldn't be underestimated or ignored, and especially by conductors of Debussy's music. Pélleas should therefore--to a strong degree--sound like an exotic, orientalist, and distinctly Eastern-influenced opera, and not be so integrally connected to Wagner & the German musical tradition, which it was composed in a direct reaction against. In addition, Pélleas should sound radical and rebellious for its time (which it was), especially considering Debussy's use of eastern rhythms & distinct Gamelan-like sounds, which some conductors see more clearly than others.

If anyone's interested, the post-Gamelan Debussy can be heard in the following works: (1) the Prelude: 



, & Sarabande: 



 --from Debussy's Pour le piano; (2) the Images oubliées No. 1 (1894): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFCMPmRlMyo; (3) the unusual use of rhythms in Pagodes from Debussy's Estampes, as mentioned, which are distinctly non-western: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc9zjQk7Peo); (4) I'Isle joyeuse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxgGIemzeps; and (5) the Fantasie for piano and orchestra: 



. While Debussy's new Gamelan charged aesthetic can be heard in many other works, too--such as (6) in the sounds of water droplets in one section of Reflets dans l'eau, from his Images Book 1 (which very few pianists recognize in the score, but among those that do are Michelangeli, Moravec, & Kocsis): 



, (7) in the sounds of the wind and crashing waves in La Mer: 



, (8) in the view of clouds moving across a night sky in Nuages: 



 from Debussy's Nocturnes, and (9) in his unusual ballet, Jeux. In these works, Debussy had similarly listened "with great care" to the sounds of the natural world, and connected his compositional style to the eternal, cyclical rhythms of nature. One can also link Debussy's new aesthetic to later 20th century composers, as well--such as Oliver Messiaen, who spent many hours in nature carefully listening to bird songs & their rhythms, which he would notate into his sketchbooks, and use for his solo piano music and mélodies, etc..

For those that listened to Debussy's post-Gamelan works above, I'd suggest that you now listen to how one of the French conductors conducts Pélleas--such as Roger Désormière, for example, if so inclined. With fresh ears, I expect you'll now hear the dominant Eastern influence in Pélleas, which Desormiére brings out by his recognition of the many unmistakeable Gamelan-like sounds in Debussy's orchestral score. The influence can also be heard in Debussy's use of Gamelan-like rhythms throughout the opera, & especially in the more rapid & percussive exchanges of dialogue, such as in the following examples:










To my ears that is miles away from Wagner.

Again, I'm not denying that there are Wagnerian influences in Pélleas et Mélisande. I just think that the French conductors are more attuned to the predominantly non-Wagnerian aspects of the score, and therefore, their conducting is more idiomatic & attentive to Debussy's score than Karajan's. Indeed, there's a whole world of difference between Charles Dutoit's interpretation of Pélleas and Karajan's, for instance, & I hear little, if any Wagner in Dutoit's understanding of the score:

Dutoit: 




Nor do I hear much of Wagner in Boulez's understanding of the opera: 




Nor in Désormière's conducting, either--who, possibly more than any other French conductor sounds like he's listened carefully to Gamelan music, and understands the close parallels that exist between its many sounds and rhythms and Debussy's score. For me, this Javanese connection can be heard in the way that Désormière conducts Pélleas right from the start: 



. Yet, it isn't as clear in the way that Cluytens conducts the opening: 



. In comparison, Karajan's conducting sounds more plain, and not especially exotic or orientalist, or even eastern-influenced: 



. So yes, I'd say that's wrongheaded or misconceived.

But obviously I agree that you should try to hear one or more of the French conductors in this music, such as Baudo, Boulez, or Dutoit in the modern era, or, most especially, the earlier French conductors with a direct connection back to Debussy's world, such as Désormière, Inghelbrecht, & Ansermet, or, to a lesser extent, Cluytens and Fournet (& Rosenthal too, if a live Pélleas recording were to ever surface, as Rosenthal did conduct stage performances of the opera in Russia, where he premiered Pélleas, & in South America: so there may actually be a radio broadcast languishing in some vault in one of those places...).

Of course, you don't have to agree with me... there are plenty of people out there that like the Karajan recording. But I think that I've made some valid points above, nevertheless.

P.S. Oh yes, and you should definitely try to hear some Gamelan music too!, in order to have a point of reference for its many exotic sounds & rhythms, and to gain a better understanding of what Debussy was actually listening to, and using to create his own musical language and aesthetic, as he moved into the 20th century. Here are some examples that I found on You Tube:


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## flamencosketches

I'm going to hold off on commenting further until I hear the full work, but I want you to know that your words are not going unheard, and that I've read your whole post and reflected on much of what you've said (including listening to the provided examples). I just bought a copy and I'm waiting on it in the mail (fret not, it's not Karajan  I decided to go with Abbado/Vienna, in lieu of a French conductor–why do they seem to be so much more expensive/hard to find? It seems none of the classics you mentioned are in print). I intend to check out more interpretations down the road, one I'm particularly interested in is the Ansermet 1964. 

I appreciate your passion for Debussy and your effort in trying to get one new listener to understand his music better. You're a gentleman and a scholar :tiphat: I intend to respond in the future with a post similar to yours in scope because there was much I agreed with in your post and much I didn't quite agree with, but until I hear the full work, I would be wasting your time in engaging you further in this discussion.


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## flamencosketches

And here I find that I could have had the Ansermet recording (the 1952 mono, anyway, still looking for the 1964) brand new for the same price I paid for the Abbado used:

https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Pelleas-Melisande-1952-mono/dp/B002ZIAC76/

In case anyone else is interested. Hopefully it is still around when I decide to purchase it.


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## Josquin13

Not that it's my absolute top choice, but I see that Charles Dutoit's (cooler, more precisely conducted) Pélleas can currently be bought for only $3.98 used! (plus shipping), from Zoverstocks, in "very good' condition: https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-lis...d_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=&sr=. That's much less than I paid for it. Also, I see there's been a price break on Serge Baudo's Eurodisc set--at $9, again "used" but in "very good" condition, which would be a first or second choice among modern versions, at least for me: https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-lis...d_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=&sr= --that is, if those two are of any interest. Unfortunately, the price for Desormiere's Pelleas is still sky high. But you can listen to it on You Tube... along with Cluytens, Inghelbrecht, & Boulez...

I prefer Ansermet's 1964 stereo recording, although that may be partly due to the better sound quality.


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## flamencosketches

I do like Dutoit's work as a conductor, but I am holding off on purchasing more of his recordings for the time being for personal reasons. But that is a steal. Perhaps in the future I will return to his work, and Debussy is right up his alley repertoire-wise. 

I'm not familiar with Baudo but that is an excellent price.


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## Josquin13

Edit: Yes, and Dutoit also had an incredibly virtuosic orchestra in Montreal. Back in the 1980s, I recall a composer friend of mine recommended Dutoit as 'the' conductor for French music of the late 19th century, early 20th century. Looking back, my friend's recommendations were always spot on and thoughtful.

Earlier, you asked about the current "young" pianists performing Debussy's solo piano music today. My favorite Debussy pianists today are mostly older--Freire, Beroff, Rouvier, Dalberto, Stott, O'Rourke, Planés, Austbø, Pludermacher, Cassard, Tomsic, Howat, etc., but there are several 'younger' ones that I've found very interesting in Debussy, and more so than the usual commercially 'hyped' fare, as the best musicians are, alas, seldom the heavily 'pumped' ones that the big record execs want to force on us (in my opinion):

Nino Gvetadze:




https://www.amazon.com/Nino-Gvetadz...s=nino+gvetadze&qid=1560722898&s=music&sr=1-5

Roland Pontinen: 









Gianluca Cascioli: I find Cascioli's Debussy Preludes, etc., to be richly imaginative, & unusually so: 



https://www.amazon.de/Debussy-Prelu...ussy+preludes&qid=1560723068&s=gateway&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.de/Debussy-Piano...reludes&qid=1560723068&s=gateway&sr=8-2-fkmr1

Hubert Rutkowski (early Debussy works, played on an 1880 Erard piano): 



https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...no-works-cd-review-the-real-star-is-the-piano

François Chaplin: whose 12 Etudes and Preludes Book 2 I especially liked, along with his superb recording of Debussy's two-piano and four-hand piano music with pianist Philippe Cassard, which is better than most that I've heard in the digital era. His complete Debussy solo piano box set has won numerous awards, including a Diapason d'or:














Michael Korstick--a complete set on the Hännsler label (in 5 volumes, or CDs). This wouldn't be a first or second choice, as I've appreciated Korstick's valuable survey of the solo piano music of Charles Koechlin more, but it's certainly a good set (although I've not heard all of it):






















Plus, I've not heard the following Debussy recordings, but they've been well-reviewed:

Noriko Ogawa--a complete set on BIS: 




https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Pian...o+ogawa+debussy&qid=1560724080&s=music&sr=1-1

Christopher Devine--a complete set on Piano Classics: 



https://www.piano-classics.com/articles/d/debussy-complete-music-for-piano-solo/

Joseph Moog--Debussy Etudes (& Ravel): 




Vincent Larderet: 




https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Cent...arderet+debussy&qid=1560728363&s=music&sr=1-1

Lately, I've been very much enjoying Catharine Collard's Debussy Preludes Books 1 & 2, a pianist that sadly passed away at only age 46 in 1993--but I suppose she would have to be considered of an earlier generation (especially considering that she was a student of Yvonne Lefébure):










I've also recently been enjoying Jean-Louis Haguenauer's Debussy--but he too is, I guess, of an older generation of French pianists.

The British classical rags have liked Steven Osborne's Debussy on Hyperion. Personally, I wasn't completely won over by his Preludes Books 1 & 2, but I haven't heard his second Debussy disc, which received excellent reviews. Nor have I heard Angela Hewitt's Debussy, either.

I've also liked pianist Eugene Asti, as a Debussy mélodies accompanist, and Emmanuel Strösser, as well (along with Philippe Cassard). While, on the other hand, I've found Bennett Lerner's Debussy cycle to be surprisingly erratic. That's what comes to mind at the moment, but I'm sure I've forgotten some.

Edit: Oh yes, I'd also watch out for any Debussy recordings from Dutch pianist Hannes Minnaar, whose solo Faure and Ravel I've liked. He's already won an Edison 'debut' award for his 1st Ravel/Rachmaninov recording: https://www.amazon.com/Sonatine-Mir...s+Minnaar+ravel&qid=1560724371&s=music&sr=1-1. & I'd also watch for any Debussy recordings from pianists David Fray, Florian Uhlig, Anna Vinnitskaya, Romain Descharmes, and Bertrand Chamayou, as well--that is, if you're strongly intent on hearing the younger generation.

P.S. One more--the Israeli pianist Boaz Sharon is exceptional in the French repertory, too: his CD "The Unknown Debussy" is great for late night listening!, and it's well-recorded, which is always nice in Debussy's piano music: 




P.S.S.--It's a pity that Ivo Pogorelich never recorded any Debussy, during his golden DG years: 




My two cents.


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## Forsooth

*Looking for a Debussy quote*

I believe Debussy said (wrote) something "in the spirit of" the following: "Music must speak directly to the soul. Music should not require work (on behalf of the listener), but should be immediately understood."

Someone (a forum follower, not necessarily on Talk Classic) used the Debussy version of this as their signature quote, but now I have lost track of the person and I would enjoy knowing exactly what Debussy stated (if it exists). I have done "due diligence" and searched high and low, but, alas, to no avail.

Thanks!


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## tdc

^^ That quote sounds familiar, but I can't remember the exact quote or context. I do recall that Debussy felt that when he had created a good piece of music, he expected a divided reaction from the audience. He didn't expect everyone would immediately love and accept his music on first reception and would've probably been suspicious of such an occurrence.


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## Guest

I found this quote, supposedly by Debussy, on a web site.



> Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part.


I personally don't find it to be much of an insight. According to Debussy works of art that I come to appreciate as I understand them better are somehow illegitimate? Let him decide what sort of beauty he enjoys and I'll worry about what sort of beauty I enjoy.


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## tdc

I think Debussy's seemingly contradictory ideas about music are related to clashing with many of what he felt were rigid academic types, (like Saint Saens and D'Indy) who he thought tried to reduce all that was good in music down to certain formulas and sets of rules. He wanted to break free of dogmatic ways of looking at music and pursued a form of expression that was more intuitive and free. 

He was very inspired by nature. The way a natural environment can immediately give one who is sensitive to it inspiration and enjoyment. This is the kind of effect he wanted his music to produce.

I think a lot of his comments are related to ideas he had of a certain ideal, they were related to him trying to bring his inspiration closer to the surface and understand it better. I don't think he (or anyone for that matter) knew and understood everything about music, and so people shouldn't try to make his quotes into absolute truths.


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## Larkenfield

“Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part.” —Debussy

I see nothing wrong with his quote. For me, it’s certainly true about the immediate appeal and sensuality of his own music, at least compared to anyone else. I’ve never had to work for it — more like a pleasure than an effort to appreciate or understand — and maybe that’s all that he meant. He wasn’t trying to mystify the listener.


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## millionrainbows

I don't know if anyone else has experienced this, but sometimes with Debussy, I get a sort of "ersatz" flavor of the tonalities; maybe that's because he was widely copied, and some of those flavors show up in other places, like cinema and easy-listening music like Mantovani, 101 Strings, etc. Still, some times his modern appeal is lost to me in the orchestral works.


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## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> I don't know if anyone else has experienced this, but sometimes with Debussy, I get a sort of "ersatz" flavor of the tonalities; maybe that's because he was widely copied, and some of those flavors show up in other places, like cinema and easy-listening music like Mantovani, 101 Strings, etc. Still, some times his modern appeal is lost to me in the orchestral works.


Yes and I don't like it, it reared its ugly head recently when I was exploring recordings of Jeux and Les demoiselles élues, some conductors avoid it - Inghelbrecht, Gielen, Maderna, Rosbaud.


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> I don't know if anyone else has experienced this, but sometimes with Debussy, I get a sort of "ersatz" flavor of the tonalities; maybe that's because he was widely copied, and some of those flavors show up in other places, like cinema and easy-listening music like Mantovani, 101 Strings, etc. Still, some times his modern appeal is lost to me in the orchestral works.


Debussy his use of 'tonality' as color was a genuine innovation. I would listen to a piece like "Prelude to an afternoon of a Faun" and think it was all orchestral color. Then I listened to the two piano version and all of the orchestral 'color' was still there. All of the color is in the harmony.

But really Debussy's genius really manifests itself in the piano music. If you exclude the orchestral music that Debussy left to others to orchestrate there is precious little of it.


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## millionrainbows

Well, I hope it's true what Mandryka said, that this depends on the conductor & orchestra.


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> Well, I hope it's true what Mandryka said, that this depends on the conductor & orchestra.


The music is the music, no matter who the conductor. I prefer conductors that make the music sparkle, rather than producing an impressionistic fog, but I don't see that as altering the coloristic use of harmony. I don't really know what you mean by 'ersatz" flavor of the tonalities.'


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## NLAdriaan

Last week I went to hear the RCO with Vladimir Jurowski, playing Jeux. After the concert we actually got to speak to Jurowski himself. He explained a few interesting things about Debussy. First of all the idea that Debussy saw himself as an impressionist composer was a total misconception. Debussy saw himself as a direct descendant of Mozart and Bach, not as a musical Monet. He would not belong to any 'ism' and certainly not impressionism. Most interesting were his ideas about a turning point in Debussy's 
oeuvre. After La Mer, Debussy outright changed to modernism. Images, Jeux and some other late works are completely different from structure compared to the earlier works. Jeux premiered a few weeks away from Le Sacre and when you look at the structure of both works, Le Sacre sounds modernist but is structured in an traditional way, like Rimsky Korsakov. Jeux however is structured in a modernist way but may sound more traditional, compared to the listener. It also is a handicap that most conductors tend to play Debussy like a Monet painting instead of recognizing the modernist in Debussy. Jurowski with the RCO definitely enlightened my ideas about Debussy and they played Jeux accordingly. Great insights and a great music night.

Part of this concert were two pieces for piano and orchestra by Birtwistle and Messiaen, where Pierre-Laurent Aimard was playing. I would also like to add Aimard to the list of great Debussy-pianists of today, along with Zimerman (who however may not play Debussy in concert these days, but he made a landmark recording of Debussy's Preludes over 25 years ago, and he is still out there on the podium. So, it counts, does it?


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## millionrainbows

Baron Scarpia said:


> The music is the music, no matter who the conductor. I prefer conductors that make the music sparkle, rather than producing an impressionistic fog, but I don't see that as altering the coloristic use of harmony. I don't really know what you mean by 'ersatz" flavor of the tonalities.'


Well, it's something that I don't hear when Boulez conducted it. For a moment I thought you were saying there is no difference in the net result when different conductors are involved. We all know that's not true.

Some conductors make Debussy sound "schmaltzy," which Mandryka agrees with, I assume. Do I need to define "schmaltz?"

In American English, via Yiddish, _schmaltz (adj. schmaltzy) also has an informal meaning of 'excessively sentimental or florid music or art' or 'maudlin sentimentality', similar to one of the uses of the words corn or corny. Its earliest usage in this sense dates to the mid-1930s_


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> Well, it's something that I don't hear when Boulez conducted it. For a moment I thought you were saying there is no difference in the net result when different conductors are involved. We all know that's not true.
> 
> Some conductors make Debussy sound "schmaltzy," which Mandryka agrees with, I assume. Do I need to define "schmaltz?"
> 
> In American English, via Yiddish, _schmaltz (adj. schmaltzy) also has an informal meaning of 'excessively sentimental or florid music or art' or 'maudlin sentimentality', similar to one of the uses of the words corn or corny. Its earliest usage in this sense dates to the mid-1930s_


One trap you can fall into is to make Debussy sound too 'dreamy.' I like conductors who emphasize the rhythmic snap and dynamic contrasts, and who bring out individual orchestral lines. French conductors tend to be good at this. Ansermet is an example of doing it right. I also like Paul Paray.


----------



## Guest

NLAdriaan said:


> Last week I went to hear the RCO with Vladimir Jurowski, playing Jeux. After the concert we actually got to speak to Jurowski himself. He explained a few interesting things about Debussy. First of all the idea that Debussy saw himself as an impressionist composer was a total misconception. Debussy saw himself as a direct descendant of Mozart and Bach, not as a musical Monet. He would not belong to any 'ism' and certainly not impressionism. Most interesting were his ideas about a turning point in Debussy's
> oeuvre. After La Mer, Debussy outright changed to modernism. Images, Jeux and some other late works are completely different from structure compared to the earlier works. Jeux premiered a few weeks away from Le Sacre and when you look at the structure of both works, Le Sacre sounds modernist but is structured in an traditional way, like Rimsky Korsakov. Jeux however is structured in a modernist way but may sound more traditional, compared to the listener. It also is a handicap that most conductors tend to play Debussy like a Monet painting instead of recognizing the modernist in Debussy. Jurowski with the RCO definitely enlightened my ideas about Debussy and they played Jeux accordingly. Great insights and a great music night.


I like Jurowski's work and agree with the comments you relate, except for the implication that these insights are very controversial. There is a famous Debussy quote to the effect that "anyone who thinks my music is impressionistic is an imbecile." That said, Debussy did write music which he described as conveying his impressions at having various experiences. He also had a neoclassical streak, but was at variance with the classical view of form (which he pointedly refused to adhere to) and harmony (which he often used as 'color' rather than as a functional underpinning). He is complicated.


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## Mandryka

It's an interesting comment about the piano music, Scarpia, I intend to listen to his transcriptions again soon. I vaguely remember listening to a piano performance for two hands of Apres Midi d'un faune - George Copeland






To me it sounds like vulgar cocktail bar music though!


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## mikeh375

Anybody heard the tale that during the initial rehearsals for La Mer, one player made a paper boat which was kicked along the floor under the chairs as they learnt the work. One can only imagine how bewildering Debussy's musical stream of consciousness must have seemed to them.
Masterpiece or no...always good to have some fun too right?


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## NLAdriaan

Baron Scarpia said:


> I like Jurowski's work and agree with the comments you relate, except for the implication that these insights are very controversial. There is a famous Debussy quote to the effect that "anyone who thinks my music is impressionistic is an imbecile." That said, Debussy did write music which he described as conveying his impressions at having various experiences. He also had a neoclassical streak, but was at variance with the classical view of form (which he pointedly refused to adhere to) and harmony (which he often used as 'color' rather than as a functional underpinning). He is complicated.


As Jurowski pointed out, Debussy made a clear turn in his work after La Mer (1905) from neoclassical to outright modernist. This was however quite late in Debussy's career. It depends on the conductor or pianist if he plays this late music with the familiar neoclassical touch or if he 'dares' to play it in a modernist way. Jurowski sure played Jeux in an unfamiliar modernist way, which he explained later. I must admit it was an eye-opener to me, because I am also conditioned by the unicolor framing of Debussy.


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## tdc

As far as Debussy works he orchestrated we have:

Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune
La Mer 
Nocturnes
Pelléas et Mélisande
Images
Jeux

and more...

So what we have is very high quality. Yes he was a great piano composer, but certainly no slouch at orchestration either.


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## Guest

NLAdriaan said:


> As Jurowski pointed out, Debussy made a clear turn in his work after La Mer (1905) from neoclassical to outright modernist. This was however quite late in Debussy's career. It depends on the conductor or pianist if he plays this late music with the familiar neoclassical touch or if he 'dares' to play it in a modernist way. Jurowski sure played Jeux in an unfamiliar modernist way, which he explained later. I must admit it was an eye-opener to me, because I am also conditioned by the unicolor framing of Debussy.


Ansermet's recording of Jeux does not shy away from modernist elements, I think. The recent Shui recording is my current favorite.


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## haydnguy

flamencosketches said:


> And here I find that I could have had the Ansermet recording (the 1952 mono, anyway, still looking for the 1964) brand new for the same price I paid for the Abbado used:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Pelleas-Melisande-1952-mono/dp/B002ZIAC76/
> 
> In case anyone else is interested. Hopefully it is still around when I decide to purchase it.


I always say, never look back (about price). When you see a lesser price there is only heartache.


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## Brazealnut

Debussy is definitely my favorite for piano solo. I'll have to give more of his orchestral works a listen!


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## flamencosketches

@Josquin, you were right about the Abbado/Vienna Pelléas. It is excellent. So glad I went for this and not the Karajan. 

I still haven't heard the full opera, but the first two acts are beautiful start to finish.


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## Josquin13

"Josquin, you were right about the Abbado/Vienna Pelléas. It is excellent. So glad I went for this and not the Karajan."

Oh good, I'm glad. As a seasoned collector said to me many years ago, when I was first starting to collect classical music recordings, "Remember, you can almost always do better than Karajan..."

I've found that to be very true, for the most part, with a few exceptions, of course. In fact, I can't even listen to Karajan's Debussy anymore. It's all wrong, to my ears.


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> Well, it's something that I don't hear when Boulez conducted it. For a moment I thought you were saying there is no difference in the net result when different conductors are involved. We all know that's not true.
> 
> Some conductors make Debussy sound "schmaltzy," which Mandryka agrees with, I assume. Do I need to define "schmaltz?"
> 
> In American English, via Yiddish, _schmaltz (adj. schmaltzy) also has an informal meaning of 'excessively sentimental or florid music or art' or 'maudlin sentimentality', similar to one of the uses of the words corn or corny. Its earliest usage in this sense dates to the mid-1930s_


There is some poor/bad Debussy out there in record land, for sure.

But here's the Q, why do women pianists have such a difficult time with Debussy?
With Ravel, there are some good to excellent records,, but when it comes to Debussy, I can't find even 1m keeper among the women artsist. 
Except for perhaps, a OOP cd, Larrisa Dedova, a russian born pianist teaching at the Maryland Conservatorie. 
I think it is a 2008 release.
I mean its good, but not enough magic , which for me, is essential to Debussy's piano music, and all his orchestral as well. Just lacks that certain shadows and colors.
Other than Dedova, who else is there?


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## paulbest

well here is the famous Monique Hass, a record I never purchased, although tempted often past 30 yrs, 
Glad I did not click BUY


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## paulbest

Hold up,,,we have a ray of light, 
Off to arkiv ck the listings in Preludes, go down the list,,no make it the list for IMAGES bk1,,,there are 3 or 4 women artsist which i need to investigate...
I came across 1 artist that caught my eye, 
Cathy Crier.
No Debussy of hers on YT, but there is a vid which allows some listens of her talents.
I like her playing, and will order her 20th C music cd. also will ck out amazon for her Debussy cd.
I think we may be on to something here, 
Never give up hope. 
research is what its all about..
I can't promise you anything, but its certainly worthy of consideration, if not actual purchase. 
Yes i have Bavouzet's complete Debussy. 
I need a woman's approach to Debussy. balance, important.


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## paulbest

I know this is Debussy's room, I do not think Debussy would mind bringing in Dutilleux (only faintly heard of this composer) 
If cathy carries over this same passion , skills, poetry in Debussy, ,,,i will order today,
will keep you guys posted on the results.


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## paulbest

Ck out this listing for historical Debussy. OK 1st group, Images Reflets, 
the 4th play is
Walter Gieseking.
which is the finest of the group of 7.

I'm guessing, but i am near 99% it is Gieseking's earlier Debussy.

Gieseking set new standards.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7978806--debussy-images-pour-piano-books-1-2

No just cked, #4 is NOT Gieseking, as all his Reflects are longer than 4:26, Not sure who the artist is, but its the finest of the 7.


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## paulbest

Look what i just NOW DISCOVERED
,,,Cathy Crier in Debussy, which is ,,interesting,,but honestly i am buying this cd for her Szymanowski more than her Debussy.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8364712--cathy-krier-debussy-szymanowski

but on second thought,,,,,,


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## paulbest

Pascal Roge's 2nd Debussy is ,, not that great. agree? 
I heard a sample, thought i may have madea error in previous research,,,then went to amazon to make a purchase,,,heard 1 clip while there,,and quickly shut down any thought of buying. 
My earlier research was correct after all.
...back to finding a woman in Debussy,,,,no luck so far,,,,and i near the end of the line....have like 2 artists left,,,which neither madea big impression (pun intended) earlier in research,,,but i am determined to have at least 1 woman artist represented in my Debussy collection. 
...wish me luck.....
and no Angela Hewitt is a bit too,,,perfunctory,,,also she only recorded the minor works, ,,I'll pass on Angela's fine efforts....wish me,,,lots of luck.....


----------



## lextune




----------



## paulbest

Mitsuko's Beethoven is excellent , right there with the greatest, Schnabel. Her Mozart remaijns unchallenged, although i would have perfered she conducted from the piano and left Tate as ,,stageing manager,,,,but here in Debussy, not only for Philips poor sound quality, as their usual, the worst in the industry, just above EMI's garbage sound quality, it is Debussy a la Mitsuko. 
ain't buying,,,
Next please...although i found a woman who does know how to play Debussy last night,,,,ain't saying who........Shamefully in my 20 yrs on CM chat rooms, no one has ever mentioned her Debussy/Ravel,. Shame on you guys,,,you live in caves,,at times.....


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## flamencosketches

Philips, poor sound quality? And Mitsuko's Debussy Études are definitely the greatest I've heard. You are crazy my guy. 

Here's another great, young woman pianist playing Debussy:


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## paulbest

Senorita Mariangela, takes a soft femmine approach , nothing wrong with this. 
But it can not stand up to Bavouzet. 
I am not going to rate women's records, as i realize the nature of this music is out of the reach for women to get right. 

Uchida's take, i've never liked and knew to avoid the purchase. 
Keep the suggestions comming,,,but i already found one woman, acceptable. .
I ain't saying who she is. You will have to figure that out for yourself. 
Debussy wrote in a way which women have a very difficult time with, Although they love the music so so much.


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## Bourdon

paulbest said:


> Senorita Mariangela, takes a soft femmine approach , nothing wrong with this.
> But it can not stand up to Bavouzet.
> I am not going to rate women's records,* as i realize the nature of this music is out of the reach for women to get right.
> *
> Uchida's take, i've never liked and knew to avoid the purchase.
> Keep the suggestions comming,,,but i already found one woman, acceptable. .
> I ain't saying who she is. You will have to figure that out for yourself.
> Debussy wrote in a way which women have a very difficult time with, Although they love the music so so much.


completely nonsensical


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## paulbest

no, its not catherine Collard who i am found as meeting Debussy on his terms. 
Another women, defeated by Debussy


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## paulbest

Bourdon said:


> completely nonsensical


well, if you can give me the name of a woman that has a record of Debussy, which meets the challenges, i'll recant.
I have found one woman, but i ain't giving up the name. 
If you can present a track which matches men recordings,,, I'll recant.
I've known about this mystery, phenomenon for quite some time now,,Its not like i just came up with this idea on the fly.I am not being perfidious, nor fickle about this matter.


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## paulbest

Look it took Gieseking some 30 yrs to arrive at his 1950's recording level. His early 1920's - 1950's were OK, nothing special. 
Gieseking establish a new standard, tempos, phrasing etc, 
The artist who follows his lead, wins the prize. 
Miss Kohn is taking a woman's approach here, she is re-inventing Debussy.
Women have a hell-of-a time getting Debussy right.


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## paulbest

Julliana Steinbach working on her Debussy


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## Bourdon

I think this is a good example


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## paulbest

Well now we are in another league, Alicia De Larrocha is a grand master, obviously she is going to present Debussy in such a way, where no one can critque.
I knew before i clicked play , that De Larrocha would play the work as in the league with Gieseking's presentation. 
But I also knew she never made any significant recording of Debussy, you will find pieces of her Debussy here and there.
This excludes her from the field of performing a complete set of any 1 work from Debussy.
She was smart, instinctively she knew, better leave Debussy for others to challenge.

btw the 2 Arabesques, are not Debussy's most notorious to get right works. 
Not saying either is easy, but comparably speaking, they are straight forward.Again very smart woman, was Alecia. 
I love Arabesque 1.


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## Bourdon

and another one


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## paulbest

i am almost afraid to click play,,,This suite is written for a woman, we all know that. 
I just heard a woman playing this piece on YT a few minutes ago,,,,,,out of curiosity sake,,i will,,please no more links for women playing Clair De Lune.


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## paulbest

Bourdon said:


> and another one


Ok, we have a winner here, Finally, 
man glad you posted this link,,I had no listing info on Livia Rev
You got me on this one,,just into the 1st few notes, i knew, here is a winner indeed. so I went off to YT to confirm, yep , a great artist in Debussy.






there is just 1 small problem with buying this cd.

https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Music-Claude-Debussy/dp/B000002ZFW

I am short of 
$1131.38

I have the $31.38
I just need some donations for the $1100.00
anyone?


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## Bourdon

She recorded a complete Debussy Saga and Hyperion.The suite is just an example.


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## Bourdon

paulbest said:


> Ok, we have a winner here, Finally,
> man glad you posted this link,,I had no listing info on Livia Rev
> You got me on this one,,just into the 1st few notes, i knew, here is a winner indeed. so I went off to YT to confirm, yep , a great artist in Debussy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there is just 1 small problem with buying this cd.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Music-Claude-Debussy/dp/B000002ZFW
> 
> I am short of
> $1131.38
> 
> I have the $31.38
> I just need some donations for the $1100.00
> anyone?


And there was light !!!!!!! 

It is oop and prices are ridiculous

This one is much cheaper and very good


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## paulbest

that set is not available here in the USA,,just picked up 3 cds of Livia in Debussy, btw just heard 2 of her Preludes,,YT upload. 
too fast/hetic. 
Her Images is STUNNING!!!


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## Bourdon

paulbest said:


> that set is not available here in the USA,,just picked up 3 cds of Livia in Debussy, btw just heard 2 of her Preludes,,YT upload.
> too fast/hetic.
> Her Images is STUNNING!!!


glad you like it :tiphat:


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## paulbest

Bourdon said:


> glad you like it :tiphat:


Had you not mentioned Livia Rev, I would surely had missed her. 
I am looking forward to hearing her complete Images Bk 1,2. 
Her Preludes i anticipate she has a *rush*ness throughout the entire set. 
Sure, even Bavouzet's complete is not perfect. There is no perfect complete set of Debussy in existence. 
With Ravel, thats different, there are quitea few exceptional complete sets. 
Not so in Debussy.

Lets just admit it now, Debussy wrote some beautiful piano music, but iis it a success? 
I say his Preludes has *issues and faults*, 
In spite of these problems, it is a masterpiece, if only a little masterwork. 
The Etudes, I am not sure of, I can not recall ever getting all enthused over his Etudes. 
So many artists have attempted to make those pieces work, fly. Some , somewhat a success, others a dismal failure, Again fault lies at the feet of the artist, in this case Debussy himself. 
We must remember these works are impression-istic, they can not be played like Chopin, Schubert, Schumann, Beethoven. 
These works require a completely different imagination. 
Women have a real tough row with Debussy.


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## Josquin13

I'm probably one of the few people that will at least partly agree with you that Uchida's Etudes are "Debussy a la Mitsuko". I don't entirely buy her Debussy interpretations, either (as she's not a particularly experienced Debussy player, having recorded nothing else by him, and to my ears, it shows in places), but the pianism is arguably special (if that's your cup of tea). (Nor do I have any problem with the Philips sound.)

However, I disagree with you about Monique Haas. Granted, her 1960s Erato recordings may not show Haas in her absolute prime, but in her prime she was a fantastic pianist, and was highly regarded as such by many of the leading musical figures of her day, including composers such as Francis Poulenc, Alexander Tcherepnin (



), Henri Dutilleux, Igor Stravinsky, Paul Hindemith, and Georges Enescu. & she was well known for her excellent Debussy and Ravel playing. Poulenc spoke of her as "the adorable Monique Haas who plays the piano ravishingly". While Henri Dutilleux praised her as "a celebrated interpreter of the music of Ravel" (these quotes are taken from the booklet notes to the Erato box set of her Debussy & Ravel recordings).

I also have a higher regard for Catherine Collard's Debussy Preludes Books 1 & 2 than you do. I don't think they're bad recordings at all, nor sufficient examples to show that women don't play Debussy well. Granted, her interpretations can be different, in places, but I think she makes them work. Besides, I don't want to hear Debussy's Preludes played exactly the same way every time I listen to them. Collard's teacher, Yvonne Lefébure played Debussy's Preludes even better (see links below). (In fact, it was Lefébure that also taught Samson François, during the time that she assisted Alfred Cortot & Cortot had quickly become exasperated with the young François and passed him onto her.)

Here's a list of female pianists that I've liked in Debussy's music over the decades--to varying degrees, of course--including some recently. I'm not saying they're all great Debussy pianists, or that all their recordings will go with me to my desert island, but I do think that they all play Debussy well, and demonstrate that your denouncement of female pianists in Debussy's music is questionable:

For example, have you heard Magda Tagliaferro?:





















Guiomar Novaes: 









Yvonne Lefébure--Debussy Preludes, Book 1:
















https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00V4BF1SK/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp

Livia Rev--Images Books 1 & 2: 



, and her two complete Debussy solo piano cycles for Saga and later Hyperion.

Monique Haas:
















I disagree with you on her DG Preludes: 



https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Prel...ue+haas+debussy&qid=1566152678&s=music&sr=1-6

Dubravka Tomsic--the complete works: 








 




Marcelle Meyer--who worked with Debussy on the Preludes shortly before his death, and gave the first all-Debussy recital of the Preludes at Savall Gaveau in Paris. She was also Erik Satie's favorite pianist, and a favorite of Les Six as well, premiering many works by them:





















Gaby Casadesus, who as a teenager was a friend of Debussy's daughter, Claude-Emma or Chou-Chou: 





















Marguerite Long: 













Françoise Thinat--I consider Mme. Thinat's Debussy to be very underrated & wish that it would get released on CD: 













Reine Gianoli:













Kathryn Stott--Stott was a student of Debussy's friend, Marcel Ciampi, and she's highly regarded for her recordings in the French repertory, including her Debussy, Koechlin, Ravel, Faure, etc.:












This is one of the very few recordings I've heard that convinces me of the merits of L'isle joyeuse, a piece that I normally don't overly care for: 




However, Stott's Conifer Debussy recordings were made earlier in her career, & I suspect that she can do even better today. (For example, I thought this recent disc by Stott was excellent: https://www.amazon.com/Solitaires-F...thryn+stott+BIS&qid=1566153030&s=music&sr=1-6.) I wish she'd record more Debussy (& likewise on a superb sounding BIS hybrid SACD).

Zaidee Parkinson--Preludes Book 1, on the Connoisseur Society label. A benchmark Debussy recording for critic Jed Distler.

Catherine Collard--Preludes books 1 & 2: 




Anne Queffelec--She plays the music of Dutillieux, Ravel, Debussy, and Satie exceptionally well, in my estimation: 




Nino Gvetadze: I've heard a lot of average Debussy recordings in recent years, but Gvetadze's thoughtful interpretation of the Preludes Book 1 continually held my interest:




https://www.amazon.com/Nino-Gvetadz...etadze+debussy&qid=1566118529&s=dmusic&sr=1-1

Yvonne Loriod--Debussy Etudes: 




Helene Grimaud--Grimaud is another pianist that I wish would record more Debussy (& Ravel):









Cecile Ousset--another student of Marcel Ciampi, who had such a high opinion of Ousset's pianism that he left his composer marked scores of the Preludes Books 1 & 2 to her; although Ousset's piano touch in Debussy can be a bit too forceful for my tastes: 





Marita Viitasalo--Preludes Books 2: 




Joyce Hatto--Debussy Etudes, which received rave reviews from the British classical rags!, but were actually played by pianist Margit Rahkonen on the Finlandia label:








https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/173635/margitrahkonen.pdf?sequence=1

Finally, had she not died tragically in a plane crash, I'd bet the house that the Spanish pianist Rosa Sabater would have given us some first class Debussy. As my proof, I'd offer how well she plays the complete Iberia by Isaac Albeniz, where she's better than most, if not all male pianists I've heard in this music: 




I wonder, if by imprinting so heavily on the recordings of Walter Gieseking that it hasn't limited your scope of understanding of Debussy's solo piano music? Granted, it's true that most French pianists, including many French female pianists, don't play Debussy in the same way that the German trained Gieseking did--with their more precise, elegant Gallic style (and different training), but surely that doesn't mean their Debussy isn't any good? For me, Gieseking is hardly the last word on Debussy; even though I happen to like some of his Debussy playing very much, such as his Suite Bergamasque, which I think is special. But I've never been as crazy about Gieseking's Preludes as others are (& speaking of poor sound... ) Plus, there's no such thing as a definitive recording.


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## millionrainbows

Here's an obscure one for you: It's quite good. Jeni Zaharieva, piano.


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## paulbest

I hada hunch, but not totally sure if Livia Rev had 2 dif recordings, , i thought maybe one was a re-release.
I think it is the Hyperion , that i want,,just bought various cds off ebay and amzon of Rev, hopefully some are Hyperion, which may be the later set and is the superior of the 2. 
It was Cecile OUSSET,. who I was asking for some one to name as the *female mystery artist* which i was quite impressed with. I just ordered several from her. 
You have certainly covered all the artists past 60+ years. 
I have heard snippets from many of the ones you mentioned.
Anne QUEFFLEC i have in Ravel and perhaps in Debussy. 
I will ck out the listing for her Debussy to make sure, Her Ravel is OK, to good, not exceptional. . 
Well sure yrs of listening to Gieseking has imprinted certain parameters , or lets say style of phrasing, which has me programmed to hear as do, in this sense a inner critic.
I can now , after yrs, hear *issues* with Gieseking. 
There are things Gieseking does which few can duplicate, yet Bavouzet does equal and surpass the great master in other respects. Thus I felt no need to have Gieseking's record in my collection. 
Michelangeli is another I have nothing of his Debussy, 
Francois yet another who is too idiosyncratic for my taste. His Ravel also wavers and veers too far off Gieseking's beaten paths.


I will look over the many interesting links,,,seems you have covered all the most important female artists in Debussy, am grateful for your kind efforts.
As I say, hopefully i have 1 or 2 Hyperion releases of Livia REV. 
Of the long list you worked up, the 2 most impressive, were Livia REV and Cecile OUSSET.

I note you have a wider acceptance barometer and range level than my stiff critque. 
I have never been generous with stars over at amazon. If I gave too many stars, i went back and made adjustments accordingly./
btw there are quite a few male artist who have not madea success of Debussy, 
Roge's 1st DECCA record is quite good, His later recording , is quite bad.
and so on, so forth. 
My point being, Debussy wrote some quirky scores in some of his Preludes. maybe some of the Etudes. His Etudes hardly anyone mention. I believe Uchida felt she had something to say in that record,,but i think s=her imaginations got a bit carried away. 

I am not sure if i even like the Etudes all that much.

Agree completely, there never has beena definitive set of Debussy, the music defies, *defining*
.


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> Here's an obscure one for you: It's quite good. Jeni Zaharieva, piano.
> 
> View attachment 122702


My budget is pretty much spent,,if i can locate a good price, i'll buy it. 
Never seen it before, thanks
Also Josquin33 mention above of 
Helene GRIMAUD. 
I love her Ravel concerto with Lopez Cobos and have on order, her later recording of the Ravel with Zinman.
I also wish she had recorded more Debussy. It is getting alittle late now, she was born in 1979, making her near 40 yrs old.


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## paulbest

Jen Zahariava
playing 3 Preludes. 
The performance is quite good, , note the challenges she is going through with the work.
I am not saying Debussy wrote failures in some of his more dif pieces, what i am saying some of the blame for artists not getting it right, has to be laid at the feet of the composer. 
Debussy should have rescored some of his preludes and Etudes. I think he was a bit premature in releasing both sets.


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## paulbest

Ravel is difficult, but at least playable = enjoyable with a 8/10 recording, Debussy a 8/10 sounds lousey. 
Some of Debussy is quite easy for women to get right, while others are just simply unplayable for women.


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## paulbest

You see THIS is EXACTLY what i am talking about, Here is a women;'s rendition of Debussy.
Grimaud did not make a Debussy recording,,I wonder why..






Most ideal imagery of a woman's take on Debussy. 
Debussy wrote solo piano for MEN ONLY.


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## ECraigR

Well that’s a rather shocking amount of casual sexism. I highly doubt Debussy wrote music that only men can perform.


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## paulbest

well at least i am a honest critic
Whereas Josquin33 is a historian of records, i am a record critic. He and I are poles apart. 
As I've mentioned, Gieseking, though far from perfect, he did in his final attempt, make some incredible gains in understanding Debussy, Artists post Gieseking should study well his final recording and build on that effort.
As I mentioned previously
I have Cecile OUSSET and Livia REV's record arriving , some are international ship, so may take some weeks to get some, others will be here later next week, the US mail is very slow now, not sure why. 
After all comes in, I will assess both artists 
If both prove successful, I will recant my position about women performing Debussy. 
Lets get back to men recording artsist. Why Roge madea 2nd attempt, beats me. 
Thibaudet 's attempt is 8/10. 
Only bavouzet is a 9/10, with several other recordings at 9/10. stars.

Here is a interesting , little knwon recording i just happened upon a few months ago. 
It is a interesting performance, 
9/10 stars
Better than most 8/10 stars for sure.


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## paulbest

ECraigR said:


> Well that's a rather shocking amount of casual sexism. I highly doubt Debussy wrote music that only men can perform.


Seems both genders struggle with Debussy. 
maybe we await a Hillary Hahn pianist to make things right


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## millionrainbows

Debussy was probably gay anyway, at least in sensibility, so what Paul means is that only _gay_ men can perform Debussy well. Is that sexist? Most women today are too "macho."


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## paulbest

Helene Grimaud is archetypal femme fatal. She plays Ravel's PC with passion and skill. Yet in her few Debussy offerings,,I made it through no more than 1/2 minutes worth, actually a few secs worth. 
I had expectations. 
As I say, Ousset and Rev, both show promising records , , a few purchased are from the EU, so may take 3 weeks to arrive. (I hardly ever buy EU, but when necessitated , I have no choice). 
Yet if we consider Josquin's list of about 15 artists mentioned, only these 2 women stand out as 8/10 stars/better than. 
The rest are 7/10 or less. 
Now sure there are 7/10's or less among the male counter parts.
Point being. 
Take Beethoven. 
There must be 200 complete sets available , with another 100 incomplete cycles.
Of the 300, my guess is there are 100 serts which rate 9/10, 10/10. 
Among these might be 20 female artsist. 
Chopin the same. 
Biret has a incredible 2nd Viennese/Boulez cd, , 10/10. 
Szymanowski, not sure why, attracts women, and there, the women have the edge or equal the male recordings in star ratings. 
Chopin would be equal, women and men, both equal star ratings among the hundred of archives. 


Ravel, I can post 5+ videos of young asian artists, all women, playing spectacular , stunning, near 10/10 Ravel. Now sure they only have 1 selection,,which they may have been working on for years. 
I understand this. 
But try to find 5 vids of your women playing Debussy, ,,,try 3,,and among the 3, there is one which I found to be excellent, stunning. 
HOWEVER,,it was not one of Debussy's more difficult-to-get-right works. 


It is a peculiarity and a reality. 
We just have to accept it. 
Now why Debussy , among every composer, is just so *peculiar* to *get right*, its anyones guess. 
It is so, and for this reason, i worked hard trying to locate the few Ousset and Rev OOP listings in Debussy. I ordered a few extras , with intentions to scalp in the future. 
Rev might have 2 dif recordings of Debussy, not sure which releases I purchased. 
Josquin has no rating system, all available women artsist have something to say in Debussy. 
We are opposites, if a recording is not at least 8/10, I am not at all interested. 
I use Gieseking's as a template for certain phrasing/textures/tempos. Though far from perfect, he does bring a certain charm ,which few can match, or equal. Gieseking, I rate maybe 9/10. Bavouzet 9/10. Thibaudet 8/10 Roge/Decca/9/10, Roge 2nd record 8/10, maybe 7/10
Among all composers, Debussy is unique as there are zero, 10/10 recordings,,,Other than the master himself , the piano rolls 10/10, sound 8/10, beats EMI's Gieseking's 5/10 sound.


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## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> Most women today are too "macho."


But most gay men today are too macho.


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## paulbest

Philippe Collard, 9/10, may have been a 10/10(with considerations), had he went on to record both Prelude sets. For this reason he gets 1 star knocked off. Seems he studied Gieseking closely.


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## Guest

ECraigR said:


> Well that's a rather shocking amount of casual sexism.


Not for the first time. You might not yet have come across that poster's opinions on female conductors yet.


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## DavidA

paulbest said:


> You see THIS is EXACTLY what i am talking about, Here is a women;'s rendition of Debussy.
> Grimaud did not make a Debussy recording,,I wonder why..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most ideal imagery of a woman's take on Debussy.
> Debussy wrote solo piano for MEN ONLY.


Am I getting this right? You are saying Grimaud did not make a Debussy recording while you have actually quoted a Debussy recording made by her for DG? Am I missing something or are you being totally illogical?


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## ECraigR

Really? Trying to defend sexism now behind claims of artistry? That’s ridiculous. I don’t even know where to begin.


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## paulbest

Grimaud did not make a Debussy album, the above is only 1 ofa few pieces of Debussy in her repertoire.
There is nothing sexist in any of my postsb on this forum, I have posted bravos on quite a few women on the podium. The women are just as good as many male conductors, I have no issues there, nor with women violinists . I am a huge fan of Hillary hahn,,just wish she would get off the Sibelius and Bach program and move on. 

side note
WOW just arrived now, 1st class mail from Georgia (2nd copy on the way from France) , Debussy's SQ played by the TRAVINCEK, have like 3 or 4 copies ordered, dif labels, 
Now here finally is a excellent rendition of a *no-SQ-can-get-right* Debussy SQ.
Along with his piano music, his SQ is near impossible,,and had it not been for this Travincek all star Czech group, I would have rallied the same complaint at Debussy's feet as i did with his *near -impossible-to-get-right* piano muisc,. At least for the men artists. The women, as I say they have 2 possible savoir artists which can redeem the groups efforts, Rev and Ousset. 

I am not saying women are not up to the task, not qualified. By7 no means,. What I am saying is that Debussy of all composers wrote some solo piano which women seem to have a hard time figuring it out. 
Beethoven the women record just as good as the men,. Chopin as well, women are great in Chopin, 
Debussy is their Achilles Heel.


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## paulbest

MacLeod said:


> Not for the first time. You might not yet have come across that posters opinions on female conductors yet.


No, what I said is that no woman will ever repeat what Bruno Walter did in Mozart's last 6 syms, Nor KNA and Keilberth's Wagner.
Woman have shown great promise on many recordings. 
I've posted a few YT uploads here on TC. 
In fact the women conductors of today have shown superior conducting skills than many of the old ancients, like Szell, Ormandy and Fritz Reiner.


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## paulbest

Rev's early approach to Debussy, She may have corrected some of this jazzy style tempos. in her 2nd OOP Hyperion release,,this will will never know. 
i have this cd arriving next week. I rate it 7/10. Again we have a woman trying to perform Debussy. \






I mean whats the rush for?
Debussy lived and wrote music in a time and place where time stood still. 
This version is too rushed. Whether man or woman' sit is a 7 stars for effort and talents only, not performance.


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## Guest

paulbest said:


> No, what I said is that no woman will ever repeat what Bruno Walter did in Mozart's last 6 syms, Nor KNA and Keilberth's Wagner.
> Woman have shown great promise on many recordings.
> I've posted a few YT uploads here on TC.
> In fact the women conductors of today have shown superior conducting skills than many of the old ancients, like Szell, Ormandy and Fritz Reiner.


And what you have also said is



> We want women artist in our fav composers, just not on the podium.


Misogyny on the podium


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## paulbest

Here is a excellent performance from Helene Grimaud on Debussy's cathedral, uploaded 2016, so it is fairly recent.
starts at 1:20
Really nice flow, gorgeous lines.
She really charms us here






One is able to observe the incredible challenges Debussy poses to the artists. Its almost like requiring a painter to employ both hands at once.


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## Guest

So you back away from your assertion that Debussy wrote solo piano music "for men only", or do you maintaining, against all evidence, the Helene Grimaud is a man?


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## paulbest

Helene managed on one of the great composers works,,,that is a far cry from the complete works, She is still young, perhaps a Debussy set is on her schedule,,,until that time....btw, the Ousset and Livia Rev sets, I am guessing is a *hit N miss*, some excellent renditions, others flops, 
I am looking for consistency. 
Now on to other things Debussy. In general, men seem to producea finer complete set than women. The challenges of Debussy is more than most woman can handle.

Now onto other things Debussy. 
Preludes Bk1/No2, Volies.
We have Gieseking's last recording comming in at 2.5 minutes, Pascal Roge 1st recording/Decca commijng in at 5 minutes.
whats up with this??
Lets follow Voile.
Cking bavouzet, 3:38, I did not at all care for his interpretation, next to Roge. 
IMHO , I believe and am quite confident, near 100%, Roge/Decca is the finest Voile on record. 
Though others , Pommier?, Collard?,,,,Thibaudet? I have issues with most of his renditions,,but who knows, perhaps his Viole competes. I need more time to investigate. 
Thoughts/opinions?


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## paulbest

,,,just getting back from some ,,,quick reserach,,,*in less than 2 minutes since your last post???how it is possible???*...trust me, I am a record critic for 35 yrs,,I have skill and experience and know Debussy's works.
Now, seems clear to me, Roge/Decca , Voile may indeed be the finest rendition.
Unless others care to refute this claim with evidence?
Now i can not say Roge's Decca is the finest near complete set, as i have not researched every piece, and am not going to. 
Lack of time.
God Speed all.


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## Woodduck

> Some of Debussy is quite easy for women to get right, while others are just simply unplayable for women.





> Debussy was probably gay anyway, at least in sensibility.





> Most women today are too "macho."





> But most gay men today are too macho.


More proof - if more were needed - that the reign of the heterosexual male cannot end too soon.


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## paulbest

IMHO
Roge?Decca figured out how best to rendition Prelude Bk1/No2/Voile. 
,,,now onto other things Debussy, Take a fav of mine, Arabesque 1. 
A woman will approach it , everytime, with a feminine touch, Nothing wrong with this, as i love the work and a woman's touch, so be it. 
Arabesque 1 and Claire De Lune,. , these 2 of Debussy, and perhaps others, a woman just can't resist adding the *feminine touch*. 
Now in Cathedrale, it is completely totally impossible to tell which gender is at the piano. 
This gender approach, is unique to Debussy piano's music. 
The tougher works, women struggle terrible with, note Uchida's Etudes. 
Whereas in the softer sentimental scores, women like to add a soft pinkness, with delicate lace and fringes. 
I mean I guess its OK, who's to complain? It is each women's right to approach Debussy as she sees the score.


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## ECraigR

paulbest said:


> IMHO
> Roge?Decca figured out how best to rendition Prelude Bk1/No2/Voile.
> ,,,now onto other things Debussy, Take a fav of mine, Arabesque 1.
> A woman will approach it , everytime, with a feminine touch, Nothing wrong with this, as i love the work and a woman's touch, so be it.
> Arabesque 1 and Claire De Lune,. , these 2 of Debussy, and perhaps others, a woman just can't resist adding the *feminine touch*.
> Now in Cathedrale, it is completely totally impossible to tell which gender is at the piano.
> This gender approach, is unique to Debussy piano's music.
> The tougher works, women struggle terrible with, note Uchida's Etudes.
> Whereas in the softer sentimental scores, women like to add a soft pinkness, with delicate lace and fringes.
> I mean I guess its OK, who's to complain? It is each women's right to approach Debussy as she sees the score.


This is completely absurd on too many levels to effectively regard it as serious. You can tell what gender is playing the piano? Pray tell, what does genderqueer person sound like on the piano? How does a male sound different from a female? This is somewhat contrary to Debussy's piano music, which I'm positive was not constructed with gender in mind.


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## Woodduck

ECraigR said:


> This is completely absurd on too many levels to effectively regard it as serious. You can tell what gender is playing the piano? Pray tell, what does genderqueer person sound like on the piano? How does a male sound different from a female? This is somewhat contrary to Debussy's piano music, which I'm positive was not constructed with gender in mind.


You mean to say that you've never heard soft pinkness and delicate lace fringes on the Steinway? Well let me tell you something. It sounds nothing at all like the blue denim and cowhide boots Debussy was wearing when he wrote "Footsteps in the Snow."


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## Guest

paulbest said:


> Now onto other things Debussy.
> Preludes Bk1/No2, *Volies*.
> We have Gieseking's last recording comming in at 2.5 minutes, Pascal Roge 1st recording/Decca commijng in at 5 minutes.
> whats up with this??
> Lets follow Voile.
> *Cking bavouzet*, 3:38, I did not at all care for his interpretation, next to Roge.
> IMHO , I believe and am quite confident, near 100%, Roge/Decca is the finest *Voile *on record.
> Though others , Pommier?, Collard?,,,,Thibaudet? I have issues with most of his renditions,,but who knows, perhaps his *Viole* competes. I need more time to investigate.
> Thoughts/opinions?


Who is "Cking bavouzet"?

And while I know that English is not the first language of many who post here, I marvel that there are three different attempts to spell the French word 'voiles'.

Most here make a decent effort to write and proof read, not least out of some respect for other readers. So, is this laziness or contrivance?


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## DavidA

paulbest said:


> Grimaud did not make a Debussy album, the above is only 1 ofa few pieces of Debussy in her repertoire.
> *There is nothing sexist in any of my postsb on this forum*, I have posted bravos on quite a few women on the podium. The women are just as good as many male conductors, I have no issues there, nor with women violinists . I am a huge fan of Hillary hahn,,just wish she would get off the Sibelius and Bach program and move on.
> 
> side note
> WOW just arrived now, 1st class mail from Georgia (2nd copy on the way from France) , Debussy's SQ played by the TRAVINCEK, have like 3 or 4 copies ordered, dif labels,
> Now here finally is a excellent rendition of a *no-SQ-can-get-right* Debussy SQ.
> Along with his piano music, his SQ is near impossible,,and had it not been for this Travincek all star Czech group, I would have rallied the same complaint at Debussy's feet as i did with his *near -impossible-to-get-right* piano muisc,. At least for the men artists. The women, as I say they have 2 possible savoir artists which can redeem the groups efforts, Rev and Ousset.
> 
> I am not saying women are not up to the task, not qualified. By7 no means,. What I am saying is that Debussy of all composers wrote some solo piano which women seem to have a hard time figuring it out.
> Beethoven the women record just as good as the men,. Chopin as well, women are great in Chopin,
> Debussy is their Achilles Heel.


You damn women playing Debussy while giving no reason whatever then say you are not being sexist? Please, some of us are intelligent! :lol:

Anyway, here's more Debussy from the fair maiden:


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## Guest

I mean, obviously, a woman touches a piano with feminine touch...but 'soft pinkness'


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## DavidA

Interesting that this won a Gramophone award. So obviously not everyone agrees that women can't play Debussy:


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## CnC Bartok

^^^^^ I think the expression "Q.E.D." springs to mind......


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## paulbest

Grammys? HA! Joke. 
Look who those old rockers gave the Award CM Conductor some yrs ago? 
Osmo Vanska /Minnesota/Sibelius. HA! Below the very worst I've heard in my life. Worst ever record of any composer. There are so few recordings comming out each yr, and Uchida was not making many cds, they gave Uchida out of charity. For her age/ gender. A man can 't win every year you know. Gramophone's recommends are worthless trash. 
Her Etudes I can hardly recognize as Debussy.

Now on to more important matters. 
Sorry if I can not get to all my detractors and their accusations and complaints thrown my way. And all this while i was trying to sleep, while figuring out whats going on with Debussy's piano works. 
Now I wake up with so many Q's to answer for.
Sorry about my lack of polished rhetoric and sp errors..I will be more attentive to grammar.
I am from NewAwlings , ya kno...
Gutter english is perfectly acceptable...

Now who else needs a response,,,i think I covered all grounds..
So back to what i am trying to convey here on this subject.

Debussy is unlike any other composer when it comes to piano.
My critical level in Ravel has , now in later age, more flexibility and deviation from any set ideals. 
Though in ravel, there is some parameters. Women seem to do much better, if not equal the men.
There are 5+ YT vids of young asian women performing STUNNING Ravel. Yet each artist only performs 1 piece. How long did they work to get at the heart of that one piece?
So its only a anomaly , not a complete cycle.


Bavouzet's Ravel is so wonder-ful,,I had so wanted his Debussy to be equaled.
Not to be.
In Preludes Bk1 Voiles , we can find performance timings ranging from Gieseking's 2:30 to Roge/Decca, 6 minutes. 
Seems every artist has their own ideas onhow to best interpret the piece.
For my ears, seems Roge/Decca , has figured out what works best and is *The Definitive* Voile. 
Now in Cathedrale, there are plenty of good renditions, from both genders. No issues there. Childrens Corner, neither gender has any advantage. 
Suite Bergamasque, women seem to have the advantage especially in Clair De Lune. In Legend and Lore, women are associated with moon light, so there you go, the connection. 
Its a lovely piece, but hardly ever visit it. 
I have not gotten around to Images. 
There I believe it will be my new found discovery in Debussy who takes a nice approach, Zoltan Kocsis. He also may have the patent of the 2 Prelude Bks. 
Not sure, all 3 of his cds are on order. 
btw Claudio Arrau and Arturo Michelangeli are not in my collection. 
Each piece of Debussy, has to be heard individually, no artist will capture the ideal in the entire set. 
Hopefully I answered some of the above criticisms, concerns, questions. 
As I say Debussy is unique in this matter of variations in performance quality in each piece. Which makes it nice to have a wide collection, great for collectors like Josquin. 
I am no collector, I am a critic. Who in Debussy , has lowered my ideals so as to bring in new fresh renditions. And also to delete certain *oddites and impurities* in selected pieces of Debussy. 
Where is Millionsrainbows when I need him most,,,,,there is a hint of trouble in the atmosphere,,,,all queries, and complaints , need to be addressed to him, now forward. 
With his eloquence and finesse, he will better address any issues you may find with my above discussions on this matter of women falling short in certain Debussy pieces.


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## paulbest

Plenty of fodder in the above, please show respect and keep all snides to yourself. as i did not work all that out to go looking for troubles. 
Snidenish will be ignored anyway.


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## paulbest

I already mentioned Grimaud's Cathedrale was excellent. Yet are there others from her in Debussy where we can be happy with?
As I mentioned, there are quite a few Cathedrale which are quite good, from both genders. 
Childrens Corner both genders also show success. 
Images are tough, the Preludes even more stringent. 
Etudes i am not sure, have not made any compares in those works.


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## paulbest

If you go to amazon's Customer Review page, there in the 2 star section, there is a lone critic/review , AFS Mui, titled his comment *Eastern Approach*,,He does go on to sasy, *if you can accept this eastern version, it is still a very decent performance*. 
All others gave Uchida's *interpretations * 5 stars. 
I left a comment , thanking AFS Mui for helping me in figuring out whats so wrong with Uchida's debussy.

https://www.amazon.com/product-revi...r&reviewerType=all_reviews#reviews-filter-bar


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## DavidA

paulbest said:


> Grammys? HA! Joke.
> Look who those old rockers gave the Award CM Conductor some yrs ago?
> Osmo Vanska /Minnesota/Sibelius. HA! Below the very worst I've heard in my life. Worst ever record of any composer. There are so few recordings comming out each yr, and Uchida was not making many cds, they gave Uchida out of charity. For her age/ gender. A man can 't win every year you know. Gramophone's recommends are worthless trash.
> *Her Etudes I can hardly recognize as Debussy.*


You don't think it might be your tin ear that is a problem? They sound really good to me?


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## flamencosketches

I'm just curious, Paul, who do you think is a good Sibelius conductor, if Vänskä is "below the worst you've ever heard in your life"? I'm not a huge fan of his either, but he is damn near universally acclaimed as one of the great interpreters of Sibelius' music.


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## Guest

paulbest said:


> Seems every artist has their own ideas onhow to best interpret the piece.


Exactly so. Unless Debussy specified how long the piece must last. Even then, every performer will have their own preferences and we know conductors and performers even ignore specific instructions.

That's why they are called 'interpretations'.


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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> I'm just curious, Paul, who do you think is a good Sibelius conductor, if Vänskä is "below the worst you've ever heard in your life"? I'm not a huge fan of his either, but he is damn near universally acclaimed as one of the great interpreters of Sibelius' music.


Having heard every conductor in Sibelius, best bet as a set is none other than,,, Berglund's Helsinki *The Standard*. 
His Bourgemouth is maybe 2nd choice. 
Other Sibelius-ians have also disclaimed all of Vansk'a efforts in Sibelius, its not just me. 
His Minnesota efforts are ,,,,can't say. Seems vanska left the Minnesota, then returned as a guest conductor,,then,,,who knows, who cares,,that orch has gone downhill, never to return to its former glory.

Minnesota SO was a great orchestra under Skroweczweski. Their Bartok AND Ravel. Purity and uncolored.


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## DavidA

MacLeod said:


> Exactly so. Unless Debussy specified how long the piece must last. Even then, every performer will have their own preferences and we know conductors and performers even ignore specific instructions.
> 
> That's why they are called 'interpretations'.


Even so it is well known that even composers were not bound by their own scores. It is said that Mahler conducted as the mood took him and Stravinsky once said to Colin Davis that 'The score is just the beginning.' Stravinsky himself conducted his own works differently on different occasions. So all this 'fidelity to the score' can only be taken so far.


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## DavidA

paulbest said:


> Having heard every conductor in Sibelius, best bet as a set is none other than,,, Berglund's Helsinki *The Standard*.
> His Bourgemouth is maybe 2nd choice.
> Other Sibelius-ians have also disclaimed all of Vansk'a efforts in Sibelius, its not just me.
> His Minnesota efforts are ,,,,can't say. Seems vanska left the Minnesota, then returned as a guest conductor,,then,,,who knows, who cares,,that orch has gone downhill, never to return to its former glory.
> 
> Minnesota SO was a great orchestra under Skroweczweski. Their Bartok AND Ravel. *Purity and uncolored*.


Funny. I would have thought that colour was just something that was needed in Bartok and Ravel. But each to his own! :lol:


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## paulbest

MacLeod said:


> Exactly so. Unless Debussy specified how long the piece must last. Even then, every performer will have their own preferences and we know conductors and performers even ignore specific instructions.
> 
> That's why they are called 'interpretations".


I am aware and accept this in Deb,,well in most of Debussy's piano. 
Some pieces are understood by certain artists while other pianists havea hard time figuring out how to make it work. If you listen to Debussy's piano roll recording, , no others will be able to follow his poetic shaping. He is free to do it his way, as Prokofiev, Rachmaninov, Ravel take liberties in their few rare recordings. 
I do not expect others to attempt how Debussy interprets his works. I think even if the artist made attempts to follow debussy, the awkwardness would show up rather quickly. 
There are 2 videos on historic recordings in Debussy, with all selections in one vid. In one YT upload, the artists are not named, in the other the artist list is given. 
You can ck it out if you like. 
I find historic recordings rather shallow in depth on interpretations. 
Gieseking is a prime example, He recorded Debussy at least 3 times, the 1st 2 not complete, his last testament, 1950's EMI studios, we now, some 70 yrs later, can now hear his deficits and faults. Clearly. Yet back in the LP days, we were all enamored with Gieseking. 
each piece has to be judged on its own. Roge /Decca is a gem/although typical with british recordings, the sound quality suffers a bit. ,,,,maybe he felt the need to upgrade the sound quality in a new recording , yet his last efforts has *issues*
We have not even covered Aimard's recording......
I know why so many artists skip over recording the Etudes,,,those pieces have a *exercise* quality about them. 
Far from my fav in Debussy. So even if Uchida's record was stellar, I might rarely play it. 
His Preludes are another matter, i think Millionsrainbows is mostly charmed by Bk2. 
I love both sets. And is perhaps Debussy's finest piano works.


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## flamencosketches

paulbest said:


> Having heard every conductor in Sibelius, best bet as a set is none other than,,, Berglund's Helsinki *The Standard*.
> His Bourgemouth is maybe 2nd choice.
> Other Sibelius-ians have also disclaimed all of Vansk'a efforts in Sibelius, its not just me.
> His Minnesota efforts are ,,,,can't say. Seems vanska left the Minnesota, then returned as a guest conductor,,then,,,who knows, who cares,,that orch has gone downhill, never to return to its former glory.
> 
> Minnesota SO was a great orchestra under Skroweczweski. Their Bartok AND Ravel. Purity and uncolored.


Berglund is my favorite too, the Bournemouth set. I've not heard the Helsinki.


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## paulbest

DavidA said:


> Funny. I would have thought that colour was just something that was needed in Bartok and Ravel. But each to his own! :lol:


Very true, uncolored meaning , no grey's , no shades of distortion. Skroweczweski was like a fine craftsman, as in Bruno Walter's style and had the forces to bring both composers to a clarity of pure colors.

You know, that raised a Q in my mind, just how does Skrowaczewski's Bartok CfO compare with the great legendary recording Reiner/Chicago's *definitive* 1955 recording. 
There is much to love in Reiner's well controlled , highly articulated performance, Yet in certain passages i found Skrowaczewski's even more impressive.


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## Guest

My Debussy preference is Jean-Efflam Bavouzet. I have the first four discs of his Complete Piano Works.


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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> Berglund is my favorite too, the Bournemouth set. I've not heard the Helsinki.


The Helsinki set was released so many times, its readily available on the cheap. 
I collected all cycles, back in the day, Really the only set anyone needs is Berglund's Helsinki for *authentic* performances. 
All others are diminutively un-necessary.
His Bourgemouth is also exceptional. As a 2nd set.


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## DavidA

paulbest said:


> Very true, uncolored meaning , no grey's , no shades of distortion. Skroweczweski was like a fine craftsman, as in Bruno Walter's style and had the forces to bring both composers to a clarity of pure colors.
> 
> You know, that raised a Q in my mind, just how does Skrowaczewski's Bartok CfO compare with the great legendary recording Reiner/Chicago's *definitive* 1955 recording.
> There is much to love in Reiner's well controlled , highly articulated performance, Yet in certain passages i found Skrowaczewski's even more impressive.


Funny having heard Walter I would have though the one thing about his conducting was 'colour'. Yet you went on about 'pure and uncoloured.' Don't you realise you are contradicting yourself? Or are you just arguing for the sake of it and don't really know what you are talking about?.


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## mikeh375

paulbest said:


> I am aware and accept this in Deb,,well in most of Debussy's piano.
> Some pieces are understood by certain artists while other pianists havea hard time figuring out how to make it work. If you listen to *Debussy's piano roll recording, , no others will be able to follow his poetic shaping*. He is free to do it his way, as Prokofiev, Rachmaninov, Ravel take liberties in their few rare recordings.
> I do not expect others to attempt how Debussy interprets his works. I think even if the artist made attempts to follow debussy, the awkwardness would show up rather quickly.


Nor would they want to imv. That is the worst case of rubato ever, so much so that the rhythm of some passages could have been written out completely differently. It isn't always the case that the composer is the best interpreter, but I'll also acknowledge that style in performance changes over time and we do not often hear such overtly mercurial performances these days of this particular work.

Even so, he's trying too hard swoon the ladies with that rather erratic and broken performance. Not for me, sorry Claude (I do love you though).


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## DavidA

paulbest said:


> If you go to amazon's Customer Review page, there in the 2 star section, there is a lone critic/review , AFS Mui, titled his comment *Eastern Approach*,,He does go on to sasy, *if you can accept this eastern version, it is still a very decent performance*.
> All others gave Uchida's *interpretations * 5 stars.
> I left a comment , thanking AFS Mui for helping me in figuring out whats so wrong with Uchida's debussy.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/product-revi...r&reviewerType=all_reviews#reviews-filter-bar


Nothing wrong with it. Check your ears!


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## Guest

paulbest said:


> Really the only set anyone needs is Berglund's Helsinki for *authentic* performances.
> All others are diminutively un-necessary.


IYO of course. In the meantime, though I started with Berglund's Bournemouth, and I like his 6th, I've sampled umpteen and only found the Segerstam with the Helsinki Phil on Ondine to be reasonably consistent. I like Davis/LSO's 4th and 7th, but am irritated by his humming on the 5th! I like Barbirolli too.


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## DavidA

paulbest said:


> The Helsinki set was released so many times, its readily available on the cheap.
> I collected all cycles, back in the day, *Really the only set anyone needs is Berglund's Helsinki for *authentic* performances. *
> All others are diminutively un-necessary.
> His Bourgemouth is also exceptional. As a 2nd set.


No such thing as an 'authentic' performance. The performances Sibelius himself admired were by Karajan


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## paulbest

mikeh375 said:


> Nor would they want to imv. That is the worst case of rubato ever, so much so that the rhythm of some passages could have been written out completely differently. It isn't always the case that the composer is the best interpreter, but I'll also acknowledge that style in performance changes over time and we do not often hear such overtly mercurial performances these days of this particular work.
> 
> .


Well said, it is this *mercurial* style which captivates me in Debussy, Ravel and other composers in their works. You get to hear a liberty and poetic flare, which is lacking in any other performance, though as you point out, others have come along with more polish and verve. 
Consider Gieseking's life long cycles with debussy, with each decade he becomes more advanced in the works.

In response to MacLoed, i also like Bavouzet as a whole. And feel as a complete set, Bavouzet is 1st choice. 
I have 3 cds of Zoltan Kocsis on order. He did not record the Etudes and after hearing Uchida play them, its not my favorite *top drawer* from Debussy anyway. 
The Etudes seem to have a *excercise* nature to them. 
You know after watching some of Uchida's live performance in the Etudes, I could be very wrong here and owe her an apology. 
Her performance may very well be stellar and stunning. As we know she is a very accomplished and supreme artist. No denying that. based on that, perhaps i misjudged her Debussy. But really as i say, its the one set from Debussy which I find interesting , and not going to argue whose recording is the best. For me the etudes seem likea no man's land, each has to take the best approach as he/she sees fit. 
I found Gieseking's Etudes, lousey and horrific.


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## paulbest

MacLeod said:


> IYO of course. In the meantime, though I started with Berglund's Bournemouth, and I like his 6th, I've sampled umpteen and only found the Segerstam with the Helsinki Phil on Ondine to be reasonably consistent. I like Davis/LSO's 4th and 7th, but am irritated by his humming on the 5th! I like Barbirolli too.


The ones you mention, also held my interest,,,then my fondness began to waiver,,and it was only the Berglund/Helsinki I felt gave the most consistent performances, As you mention about Segerstam in both his Danish and later Helsinki records. 
Both recordings have inconsistencies. It was at this critical point when i realized I have issues with Sibelius and began to look further into the musical world,,,late 1990's. 
It was my comparing the 2 Segerstam recordings, over and over,,,, that something awoke in me *do i REALLY like these symphonies,,any longer??*. 
Now , only Kullervo remains in my collection. Even his once cherished, beloved 4 Legends, may not even be at the bottom of the box.


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## paulbest

Here is a excellent video with Uchida discussing Debussy's Etudes. 
Goes to explain there is nothing definitive about this work. 
Now i know why the Etudes were always my *least fav* among Debussy's masterpieces.





EDIT


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## paulbest

Too *colored* Uchida is a very accomplished artist , very intelligent in all things music,. Yet here in this Etude 1



, I feel she is a bit too rushed, *too colored* that is to say, for those who do not understand how i define *colored*, Meaning Idiosyncratic , the artist comes to forward, , leaving the music is behind in the shadows.

Bavouzet takes a more relaxed , refined approach, and to my ears is a better rendition.


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## paulbest

In Debussy I do not like too much a *modernistic* approach. 
that is to say, Debussy wrote at the beginning of the great industrial revolution,,in a era when time was not such a powerful influence and dominance as it is today.. 
In this perspective each piece should be approached with this in mind, Any of Debussy's pieces, played a tad too quick tempo, will stand in high relief against the correct template which Debussy had in his creative imagination.


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## CnC Bartok

DavidA said:


> Nothing wrong with it. Check your ears!


There's everything wrong with it, she's a girlie! :devil:

Despite that obvious flaw, it's close to being a desert island disc for me.

Interesting that there has been little mention here of the wonderful Debussy survey done by Gordon Fergus Thompson, originally on ASV, I believe, but now on Aussie Decca. Just gorgeous!


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## Mandryka

paulbest said:


> In Debussy I do not like too much a *modernistic* approach.
> that is to say, Debussy wrote at the beginning of the great industrial revolution,,in a era when time was not such a powerful influence and dominance as it is today..
> In this perspective each piece should be approached with this in mind, Any of Debussy's pieces, played a tad too quick tempo, will stand in high relief against the correct template which Debussy had in his creative imagination.


See what you think of Debussy's own recordings, they're on YouTube I expect. And maybe even more interesting those by Cortot, who was close to Debussy. And maybe even more interesting than that, the recording that Moyse, Ginot and Larkine made of the trio for piano, harp and viola. The thing that all these recordings have in common is speed, my own view is that the slow and languid approach to Debussy is exactly NOT what Debussy "had in his creative imagination"


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## DavidA

paulbest said:


> In Debussy I do not like too much a *modernistic* approach.
> that is to say, Debussy wrote at the beginning of the great industrial revolution,,in a era when time was not such a powerful influence and dominance as it is today..
> In this perspective each piece should be approached with this in mind, Any of Debussy's pieces, played a tad too quick tempo, will stand in high relief against the correct template which Debussy had in his creative imagination.


Oh great! You (and only you, apparently) have the correct template of Debussy's creative imagination? Did his shade give it to you in a dream? :lol:


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## DavidA

paulbest said:


> Too *colored* Uchida is a very accomplished artist , very intelligent in all things music,. Yet here in this Etude 1
> 
> 
> 
> , I feel she is a bit too rushed, *too colored* that is to say, for those who do not understand how i define *colored*, Meaning Idiosyncratic , the artist comes to forward, , leaving the music is behind in the shadows.
> 
> Bavouzet takes a more relaxed , refined approach, and to my ears is a better rendition.


Oh you mean too expressive. Not monotonous enough for you?


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## DavidA

CnC Bartok said:


> There's everything wrong with it, she's a girlie! :devil:
> 
> Despite that obvious flaw, it's close to being a desert island disc for me.
> 
> Interesting that there has been little mention here of the wonderful Debussy survey done by *Gordon Fergus Thompson*, originally on ASV, I believe, but now on *Aussie *Decca. Just gorgeous!


An Aussie label? Doesn't that rule him out too? Especially when we are playing the Ashes? :lol:


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## paulbest

Mandryka said:


> See what you think of Debussy's own recordings, they're on YouTube I expect. And maybe even more interesting those by Cortot, who was close to Debussy. And maybe even more interesting than that, the recording that Moyse, Ginot and Larkine made of the trio for piano, harp and viola. The thing that all these recordings have in common is speed, my own view is that the slow and languid approach to Debussy is exactly NOT what Debussy "had in his creative imagination"


Well let me rephrase, this idea of tempered tempos. 
Not slow, of course, as in *lugubrious* , but as in how Grimaud takes the correct tempo in Cathedrale , which most artsist take any way, careful, spacious, with breathe and full of meaning as each note falls from the finger tips. Not a easy work to get right. 
I love how Debussy takes it, of course the composer has the liberty to do as he pleases. Though as mentioned above, Debussy makes quick diversions at times, he sort of zig zags along the way. ravel does the same, but the end result is so poetic and full of wonder. 
However Debussy could never play his Voiles as did Roge/Decca, which is sheer mastery and understands how that piece ought to go forth. 
Does this negate Debussy's wonders in his own style? Of course not. 
Yet Roge's 2nd record Voiles is just aweful. 
Slow Debussy is terrible, but given a certain spaciousness , some pieces work in this wider canvass. 
this is what i am getting at. 
No one wants slowly cautiously played Debussy. Although one women has made a record in just that style.


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## CnC Bartok

DavidA said:


> An Aussie label? Doesn't that rule him out too? Especially when we are playing the Ashes? :lol:


Yes, but Fergus-Thompson is English. They have to import their culture, y'know :devil:

And what do you mean "we are playing the Ashes"? So far, I thought it was only the opposition who had turned up....

Being serious for a moment though, the Debussy survey I mentioned is top drawer stuff.


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## CnC Bartok

" The Etudes seem to have a *excercise* nature to them. "

No kiddin'! I wonder how a dictionary would define the musical term "Étude"....?


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## Mandryka

paulbest said:


> Well let me rephrase, this idea of tempered tempos.
> Not slow, of course, as in *lugubrious* , but as in how Grimaud takes the correct tempo in Cathedrale , which most artsist take any way, careful, spacious, with breathe and full of meaning as each note falls from the finger tips. Not a easy work to get right.
> I love how Debussy takes it, of course the composer has the liberty to do as he pleases. Though as mentioned above, Debussy makes quick diversions at times, he sort of zig zags along the way. ravel does the same, but the end result is so poetic and full of wonder.
> However Debussy could never play his Voiles as did Roge/Decca, which is sheer mastery and understands how that piece ought to go forth.
> Does this negate Debussy's wonders in his own style? Of course not.
> Yet Roge's 2nd record Voiles is just aweful.
> Slow Debussy is terrible, but given a certain spaciousness , some pieces work in this wider canvass.
> this is what i am getting at.
> No one wants slowly cautiously played Debussy. Although one women has made a record in just that style.


The problem I had was with the idea that you understand what the composer had in his imagination, especially when the contemporary performances don't match your understanding of this. You see what I think's happening is this: you like some performances and you like others less, and you're trying to explain this by reference to something in the music's origins. But that's going to be a hard case to make.


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## paulbest

Yes, it will be a tough row to make any convincing opinion as to how each work *should/ought* to go. 
I think it was for my ear being well trained by Giesekings recording, that i am able to make some *what* reliable judgements in scoring, as least for my listening sake, maybe not yours, but i think i have a pretty good palate for critical judgement,,I am a sort of sou chef you know, and loved the french masters/techniques.
anyway onto debussy and the critical ear.
Here is a link that may provide some insight to where we need to go.
It is in fact , from this vid which awakened me to Zoltan Kocsis recording, which i had neglectfully overlooked, *A Hungarian in Debussy? no way*. 
After this intro to Kocsis, after just 15 secs in fact, i quickly jumped over to ebay and amazon, 3 are on order, everything he recorded,,,thankfully he skipped over the Etudes, Zolta left the Etudes for Mitsuko to record. 
anyway the finest is Kocsis.






and that is what we are all after in Debussy. 
who wants mediocracy?

OK, women too have a right to voice their ideas on Debussy.


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## paulbest

I like Charles Rosen also on that list. Of course we could also bring in another 10 more artists.


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## DavidA

paulbest said:


> Yes, it will be a tough row to make any convincing opinion as to how each work *should/ought* to go.
> I think it was for my ear being well trained by Giesekings recording, that i am able to make some *what* reliable judgements in scoring, as least for my listening sake, maybe not yours, but *i think i have a pretty good palate for critical judgement*,,I am a sort of sou chef you know, and loved the french masters/techniques.
> anyway onto debussy and the critical ear.
> Here is a link that may provide some insight to where we need to go.
> It is in fact , from this vid which awakened me to Zoltan Kocsis recording, which i had neglectfully overlooked, *A Hungarian in Debussy? no way*.
> After this intro to Kocsis, after just 15 secs in fact, i quickly jumped over to ebay and amazon, 3 are on order, everything he recorded,,,thankfully he skipped over the Etudes, Zolta left the Etudes for Mitsuko to record.
> anyway the finest is Kocsis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and that is what we are all after in Debussy.
> who wants mediocracy?
> 
> OK, women too have a right to voice their ideas on Debussy.


Did you also write the best seller, 'Modesty and how I achieved it'? :lol:


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## CnC Bartok

" OK, women too have a right to voice their ideas on Debussy "

Emmeline Pankhurst says "thank you very much", and promises to cook something delicious for you.


----------



## Guest

CnC Bartok said:


> Interesting that there has been little mention here of the wonderful Debussy survey done by Gordon Fergus Thompson, originally on ASV, I believe, but now on Aussie Decca. Just gorgeous!


I have the ASV set and they are indeed wonderful. I am very surprised to see them on Decca. But I guess that's where the ASV catalog ended up.


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## paulbest

CnC Bartok said:


> " OK, women too have a right to voice their ideas on Debussy "
> 
> Emmeline Pankhurst says "thank you very much", and promises to cook something delicious for you.


ahh Ok, Emmeline *mama* Pankhurst...I was cking YT fora recording upload of Pankhurst in Debussy,,finally I arrived at this.






A real Yellow Vester, early on. 
She and i would get along well, as you know i am trying to ruffle feathers around here to get folks to change their ideas about the history of CM,,my latest tirade is that Henze is influenced by Bach, thus Bach's genius is reborn anew in Henze.

Women have the right to record Debussy, , but so far only 2 have made impressions on me. 
And after i receive my 3 cds of Zoltan Kocsis, I am not sure how those 2 master pianists will fare next to Kocsis , when their cds arrive.


----------



## Guest

paulbest said:


> ahh Ok, Emmeline *mama* Pankhurst...I was cking YT fora recording upload of Pankhurst in Debussy,,finally I arrived at this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A real Yellow Vester, early on.
> She and i would get along well, as you know i am trying to ruffle feathers around here to get folks to change their ideas about the history of CM,,my latest tirade is that Henze is influenced by Bach, thus Bach's genius is reborn anew in Henze.
> 
> Women have the right to record Debussy, , but so far only 2 have made impressions on me.
> And after i receive my 3 cds of Zoltan Kocsis, I am not sure how those 2 master pianists will fare next to Kocsis , when their cds arrive.


The fact that you feel it necessary to frame your listen as men vs women is pathological. Every artist is an individual. Every human is an individual.


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## paulbest

In part I agree, it is inexcusable of me to frame up this idea, masculine vs feminine approach in Debussy. 
If you A/B 2 recordings, i bet i would havea hard time deciding, man or women,,,yet maybe in Claire De Lune i could tell, as women like to *dainty it up in pink flowers*. 
It just seemed obvious to me, women had a rough go in Debussy, and none present Debussy as successful as have a few men artists have. 

Bavouzet has the complete Debussy, Thibaudet has near complete and both in print, Livia Rev, Cecile Ousset , both OOP. Women lose points just on this OOP status. 
Or you can not see this? 
Why would labels close out production on 2 women artist in Debussy? 
Why is it the only recent available recordings, past 10+ yrs, in Debussy is from men, no women?
There must be reasons for this phenomenon. 
Livia Rev is like from the 1980's, Cecile Ousset is also from 1980's, Since this time, can you point outa successful Debussy cycle from a woman?
Successful = at least 8/10 stars. AND complete set, that is 2+ cds worth. 
Past 10 years, make it past 20 years.


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## paulbest

Keep in mind , if you would, I approach Debussy from a critical angle, It was bound to surface that i would find women taking a *different approach* to Debussy. 
It was not until, very recently, say past few weeks, that i even began to take a interest in women in Debussy. After i realized that the men artists were not as successful in Debussy as they were in Ravel. So I decided to explore women artist in Debussy, 
I have a few women performing Ravel in my extensive collection, yet none rank high on my list. maybe a 8/10. 
I had no expectations of finding a 9/10 in Debussy, But there is always hope.
As a recording critic, my opinions should be allowed some immunity from disdain or grudges. 
I have never ridiculed any specific women's approach to Debussy.


----------



## DavidA

paulbest said:


> Keep in mind , if you would, I approach Debussy from a critical angle, It was bound to surface that i would find women taking a *different approach* to Debussy.
> It was not until, very recently, say past few weeks, that i even began to take a interest in women in Debussy. After i realized that the men artists were not as successful in Debussy as they were in Ravel. So I decided to explore women artist in Debussy,
> I have a few women performing Ravel in my extensive collection, yet none rank high on my list. maybe a 8/10.
> I had no expectations of finding a 9/10 in Debussy, But there is always hope.
> *As a recording critic, my opinions should be allowed some immunity from disdain or grudges. *
> I have never ridiculed any specific women's approach to Debussy.


Keep going Paul! I find you amusing anyway! :lol:


----------



## Larkenfield

paulbest said:


> Keep in mind , if you would, I approach Debussy from a critical angle, It was bound to surface that i would find women taking a *different approach* to Debussy.
> It was not until, very recently, say past few weeks, that i even began to take a interest in women in Debussy. After i realized that the men artists were not as successful in Debussy as they were in Ravel. So I decided to explore women artist in Debussy,
> I have a few women performing Ravel in my extensive collection, yet none rank high on my list. maybe a 8/10.
> I had no expectations of finding a 9/10 in Debussy, But there is always hope.
> As a recording critic, my opinions should be allowed some immunity from disdain or grudges.
> I have never ridiculed any specific women's approach to Debussy.


I find your attempts to objectify Debussy performances based on gender as deeply offensive and sexist, as if he's so mystifying as a composer that a woman couldn't possibly play him well. I suggest you look a little farther. It's highly doubtful that you or anyone could possibly tell in a blind test whether these were being superbly performed by a man or a woman:






And Dubravka Tomsic:


----------



## Guest

paulbest said:


> In part I agree, it is inexcusable of me to frame up this idea, masculine vs feminine approach in Debussy.
> If you A/B 2 recordings, i bet i would havea hard time deciding, man or women,,,yet maybe in Claire De Lune i could tell, as women like to *dainty it up in pink flowers*.
> It just seemed obvious to me, women had a rough go in Debussy, and none present Debussy as successful as have a few men artists have.
> 
> Bavouzet has the complete Debussy, Thibaudet has near complete and both in print, Livia Rev, Cecile Ousset , both OOP. Women lose points just on this OOP status.
> Or you can not see this?
> Why would labels close out production on 2 women artist in Debussy?
> Why is it the only recent available recordings, past 10+ yrs, in Debussy is from men, no women?
> There must be reasons for this phenomenon.
> Livia Rev is like from the 1980's, Cecile Ousset is also from 1980's, Since this time, can you point outa successful Debussy cycle from a woman?
> Successful = at least 8/10 stars. AND complete set, that is 2+ cds worth.
> Past 10 years, make it past 20 years.


There are more male concert pianists in general. Part of it is due to the fact that you need hands of a certain size to play classical piano and a smaller fraction of women than men have hands that are large enough. (Pianos were designed for men.) Among the men and women that meet the physical criteria I hear no basis for a claim that one gender or the other is more suited to any sort of music.


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## Larkenfield

Baron Scarpia said:


> There are more male concert pianists in general. Part of it is due to the fact that you need hands of a certain size to play classical piano and a smaller fraction of women than men have hands that are large enough. (Pianos were designed for men.) Among the men and women that meet the physical criteria I hear no basis for a claim that one gender or the other is more suited to any sort of music.


 Alicia de Larrocha had small hands and did just fine because they were flexible and elastic.

https://www.aliciadelarrocha.com/en/content/her-hands


----------



## joen_cph

Regarding something else, the lovely _Violin Sonata_ (1915) was premiered in 1917 by Debussy himself and the violinist Gaston Poulet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaston_Poulet

Poulet lived a long life (1892-1974) and later worked as a conductor, also making recordings in that function (Mendelssohn, Rimsky-Korsakov, and a lot more).

His son is the rather well-known violinist Gerard Poulet (1938- ):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gérard_Poulet
who has recorded and performed the Violin Sonata. This makes his approach of extra interest; 
he likely picked up some information from his father?

This is a rather beautiful and also flexibly-shaped performance I think - Gerard Poulet live with Naoumoff:






I also like the rather special, improvisation-like and ~modernist recording by Gitlis and Argerich, but Poulet's is very good too, I think.


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## paulbest

Someone previously posted Alicia De Larrocha , and even before click play, I kew she would perform with some criteria. 
Now here in this live perf, i can only grant her above avg performance. If that, Its pretty bad if you want my honest opinion, The mods *have put up with me thus far* as they can not find any reason to send a warning note, for any infraction which you apparently have imagined. 
I never demeaned any particular women's skill, nor artistry, only the manner in which certain women approarch Debussy. As i say, im place part of this defect on debussy himself, He wrote some thorny and prickly piano muisc in CERTAIN PIECES, Not all. 
A artist should know what piece is out their range, and what is within their level of skills. 
Nothing disparaging in this statement,. nor does it selectively disregard women's recordings in Debussy. 
If you and others can not hear the quality level in historical men's records vs the women's records,,then its all a matter of just personal opinions. 
I've madea pev of mine to become a record critic due to many poor decisions in selecting a LP, decades ago. 
Its my hobby and i think i am pretty good judge.

You will never find me making any criticisms of women in any other composer, especially that of Beethoven and Chopin...although I will only add as a footnote,,I'd like to see any women make a record as did Schnabel. 
Now for Chopin, I much prefer women over men. Or lets say I have a edge to go with women in Chopin. And you well know there are at least a dozen 10/10 records of Women in Chopin. 
I try to be fair/unbiased in all my critiques. 
This is a critics sworn commitment.


----------



## paulbest

Larkenfield said:


> Alicia de Larrocha had small hands and did just fine.


The other link posted eralier of Alicia in Debussy was superior to this one posted. You are too liberal, its OK, not a cd I would want to own.
Alicia in spanish piano is excellent, In Debussy and her Ravel piano concerto with Slatkin is a bit out her range level.. 
Her Mozart also is excellent.


----------



## Larkenfield

paulbest said:


> Someone previously posted Alicia De Larrocha , and even before click play, I kew she would perform with some criteria.
> Now here in this live perf, i can only grant her above avg performance. If that, Its pretty bad if you want my honest opinion, The mods *have put up with me thus far* as they can not find any reason to send a warning note, for any infraction which you apparently have imagined.
> I never demeaned any particular women's skill, nor artistry, only the manner in which certain women approarch Debussy. As i say, im place part of this defect on debussy himself, He wrote some thorny and prickly piano muisc in CERTAIN PIECES, Not all.
> A artist should know what piece is out their range, and what is within their level of skills.
> Nothing disparaging in this statement,. nor does it selectively disregard women's recordings in Debussy.
> If you and others can not hear the quality level in historical men's records vs the women's records,,then its all a matter of just personal opinions.
> I've madea pev of mine to become a record critic due to many poor decisions in selecting a LP, decades ago.
> Its my hobby and i think i am pretty good judge.
> 
> You will never find me making any criticisms of women in any other composer, especially that of Beethoven and Chopin...although I will only add as a footnote,,I'd like to see any women make a record as did Schnabel.
> Now for Chopin, I much prefer women over men. Or lets say I have a edge to go with women in Chopin. And you well know there are at least a dozen 10/10 records of Women in Chopin.
> I try to be fair/unbiased in all my critiques.
> This is a critics sworn commitment.


Seek out performance based on merit and leave gender out of it. There is always the exception to the rule which can disprove the whole. Sometimes it's like being in the 19th century around here.


----------



## Guest

Larkenfield said:


> Alicia de Larrocha had small hands and did just fine.


Her hands were big enough.

The point is that a span of 21.5 cm (8.5") is generally necessary to play classical music as written. With smaller hands, you can't reach the notes written. According to a study, 87% of men but 13% of women have hands of at least this size. That means there are 7 times as many men as there are women whose hands are big enough to be a concert pianist.


----------



## paulbest

Baron Scarpia said:


> Her hands were big enough.
> 
> The point is that a span of 21.5 cm (8.5") is generally necessary to play classical music as written. With smaller hands, you can't reach the notes written. According to a study, 87% of men but 13% of women have hands of at least this size. That means there are 7 times as many men as there are women whose hands are big enough to be a concert pianist.


 Well thank you, I was unaware of this aspect of playing for the women's gender, Especially in Debussy YT live performances, you can observe at times, the requirements of wide stretching of the fingers. 
Your post allows me to understand the underlying issues here and with all due respect i will refrain from making any other negative opinions in this subject matter.
With this new insight you provide, will open new appreciations of my new cds arriving next week, Ousset and Livia Rev (her earlier recording, not her superior later recording, which is long OOP). 
I had no idea of these complications involved with hand placement.


----------



## Guest

I believe there is data to show that women have, on average, greater manual dexterity than men. You might expect more women to be exceptional pianists, except for the fact that the the modern piano is designed for the typical hand size of a man. The majority of woman don't have hands large enough to reach the notes written, regardless of their dexterity. These woman don't have the option of even training as a concert pianist.


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## paulbest

well had you posted these insights early on, i would have refrained from pushing my agenda. with women in Debussy. As i say, in Ravel you can find some exceptional pianism among women artists. In Szymanowski, women are exceptionally sensitive and gifted.

and with this positive note, we end this on a happy finale, as in the coda to Clair De Lune


----------



## paulbest

Debussy's captivating operetta Pelleas and Melisande
Perhaps one of the most engrossing performances, is Desormiere's production of 1941, just before the melt down of europe.

I wish Debussy had written just one more intro theme bars into the opening. 
Like rich velvety chocolate cake...


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## Larkenfield

Women are fully capable of understanding and playing superb Debussy, such as Monique Haas. Monique's touch is as fine as anyone.


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## Larkenfield

.................


----------



## DavidA

paulbest said:


> Someone previously posted Alicia De Larrocha , and even before click play, I kew she would perform with some criteria.
> Now here in this live perf, i can only grant her above avg performance. If that, Its pretty bad if you want my honest opinion, The mods *have put up with me thus far* as they can not find any reason to send a warning note, for any infraction which you apparently have imagined.
> I never demeaned any particular women's skill, nor artistry, only the manner in which certain women approarch Debussy. As i say, im place part of this defect on debussy himself, He wrote some thorny and prickly piano muisc in CERTAIN PIECES, Not all.
> A artist should know what piece is out their range, and what is within their level of skills.
> Nothing disparaging in this statement,. nor does it selectively disregard women's recordings in Debussy.
> If you and others can not hear the quality level in historical men's records vs the women's records,,then its all a matter of just personal opinions.
> *I've madea pev of mine to become a record critic due to many poor decisions in selecting a LP, decades ago.
> Its my hobby and i think i am pretty good judge.*
> 
> You will never find me making any criticisms of women in any other composer, especially that of Beethoven and Chopin...although I will only add as a footnote,,I'd like to see any women make a record as did Schnabel.
> Now for Chopin, I much prefer women over men. Or lets say I have a edge to go with women in Chopin. And you well know there are at least a dozen 10/10 records of Women in Chopin.
> I try to be fair/unbiased in all my critiques.
> This is a critics sworn commitment.


Let me tell you my experience in life mate - it's not whether I think I am a good judge that counts. It's whether other people do! :lol:


----------



## Mandryka

Just to move things on a bit, I’ve been exploring Arrau’s images and estampes, he recorded the music many times in his career, and it’s like a journey to greater and greater abstraction, deeper and deeper probing to explore behind the surface image, I think it’s really interesting. It reminds me of a Mondrian retrospective I saw years ago, which started off with early quasi fauvist paintings he made of an apple tree and slowly moved to the geometric abstractionism of the middle period, and ended with the two big New York canvases. If anyone decides to follow me on this journey I’d be very interested to know what you make of it. The last recordings are especially challenging.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Just to move things on a bit, I've been exploring Arrau's images and estampes, he recorded the music many times in his career, and it's like a journey to greater and greater abstraction, deeper and deeper probing to explore behind the surface image, I think it's really interesting. It reminds me of a Mondrian retrospective I saw years ago, which started off with early quasi fauvist paintings he made of an apple tree and slowly moved to the geometric abstractionism of the middle period, and ended with the two big New York canvases. If anyone decides to follow me on this journey I'd be very interested to know what you make of it. The last recordings are especially challenging.


I've been listening to Arrau's late Debussy recordings too. Phenomenal. I would agree that they are quite challenging compared to some of my other favorite recordings of the Images and Estampes (such as Ivan Moravec). He chose some strange tempi at times. Claudio Arrau was one of the most serious musicians who ever lived. I'm sure he would lay awake at night thinking about this music, possibly for years. Anyway, that Mondrian exhibit sounds fascinating.


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## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> Just to move things on a bit, I've been exploring Arrau's images and estampes, he recorded the music many times in his career, and it's like a journey to greater and greater abstraction, deeper and deeper probing to explore behind the surface image, I think it's really interesting. It reminds me of a Mondrian retrospective I saw years ago, which started off with early quasi fauvist paintings he made of an apple tree and slowly moved to the geometric abstractionism of the middle period, and ended with the two big New York canvases. If anyone decides to follow me on this journey I'd be very interested to know what you make of it. The last recordings are especially challenging.


That analogy with painters is good, and I wish more listeners could follow certain composers in the same way, seeing their evolution. Composers such as Schoenberg, John Cage, Scriabin, etc.

When confronted with a single isolated late Mondrian canvas in Fort Worth, my wife said she felt "cheated". I, of course, knew that this canvas was the culmination of a long line of abstraction.


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## CnC Bartok

This re-release is due in a couple of weeks time. 2009 remasters if that's helpful? Any comments on its merits? I know a few Ciccolini recordings, not his Debussy...


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## flamencosketches

CnC Bartok said:


> This re-release is due in a couple of weeks time. 2009 remasters if that's helpful? Any comments on its merits? I know a few Ciccolini recordings, not his Debussy...
> 
> View attachment 122866


Wow, good find. I think I may have to jump on that. I've been listening to Aldo's recordings of Satie and he plays them masterfully with a lot of dry wit. Kind of unlike the other interpretations of Satie that I like, but good nonetheless. I'll have to check out his Debussy. I'm sure that box is dirt cheap like the François/Cluytens Ravel box that Erato released last year.

But then there is also this...:









... to be released on the same day... hmm....


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## CnC Bartok

^^^ I'm after that box too! Also the Decca Tchaikovsky recordings with the Czech Philharmonic









Now stick to discussing Debussy, or you'll be told off.....:angel:


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## Enthusiast

flamencosketches said:


> I'm just curious, Paul, who do you think is a good Sibelius conductor, if Vänskä is "below the worst you've ever heard in your life"? I'm not a huge fan of his either, but he is damn near universally acclaimed as one of the great interpreters of Sibelius' music.


His Sibelius from Minnesota is mostly quite wonderful (although I didn't like the first CD from the series - with the 2nd and 5th - that much) but not wild (which many require in Sibelius). For me much of his work these days is filled with revolutionary insights but his music making rarely goes for easy rabble rousing (not that I'm suggesting that that is what _you_ want). His earlier Sibelius series did much to reignite our love for Sibelius and includes numerous performances that are truly excellent. For me, both sets (so different from each other) belong among the five or six sets that I would not be without.


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## Enthusiast

paulbest said:


> Keep in mind , if you would, I approach Debussy from a critical angle, It was bound to surface that i would find women taking a *different approach* to Debussy.
> It was not until, very recently, say past few weeks, that i even began to take a interest in women in Debussy. After i realized that the men artists were not as successful in Debussy as they were in Ravel. So I decided to explore women artist in Debussy,
> I have a few women performing Ravel in my extensive collection, yet none rank high on my list. maybe a 8/10.
> I had no expectations of finding a 9/10 in Debussy, But there is always hope.
> As a recording critic, my opinions should be allowed some immunity from disdain or grudges.
> I have never ridiculed any specific women's approach to Debussy.


I'm left thinking in this thread that it is _you _who find Debussy difficult. But keep persevering and you will probably come to find so many different possibilities in the music, perhaps each realised by different artists. Liking only one account or one way of doing a piece was how I used to be as a child getting to know classical music.


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## flamencosketches

CnC Bartok said:


> ^^^ I'm after that box too! Also the Decca Tchaikovsky recordings with the Czech Philharmonic
> 
> View attachment 122868
> 
> 
> Now stick to discussing Debussy, or you'll be told off.....:angel:


Wait, so this isn't the Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Tchaikovsky, and Sibelius thread? 

Seriously, though, thank you for alerting me to that Aldo Ciccolini box. Definitely interesting.


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## Guest

Looking down my list of artists performing Debussy's piano works I have (alphabetical):


Alain Planes
Artur Rubinstein
Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
Catharine Collard
Daniel Ericourt
Jean Efflam Bavouzet
Jean-Yves Thibaudet
Maurizio Pollini
Mitsuko Uchida
Noriko Ogawa
Pascal Roge
Simon Trpceski
Zoltan Kocsis
​Of these 13 pianists, 3 are women: Catherine Collard, Noriko Ogawa, Mitsuko Uchida.

These pianists together cover the entire range of Debussy's piano works. The largest collection is that by Jean Efflam Bavouzet.

I don't listen to these works all that often, not because I don't much care for them much but I have so much other piano material that I prefer that I hardly ever get round to playing them. When I do get round to listening to them, I'm perfectly happy with a male or female performer. For example, my versions of Les Preludes, Books 1 and 2 (L117 and L123 respectively] by Catherine Collard meet all my expectations for these works.

Possibly I'm not that fussy about choice of piano artists provided they're above a certain minimum standard, which all of the above are. The kind of thing that would put me off a recording is poor sound quality or if the tempos were too fast or slow. Variation in style per se is not something that bothers me greatly, with two exceptions: one is in respect of Schubert, and the other is Schumann. I think that their piano music especially requires each's own certain style in order for it to sound really good. But again, I draw no distinction between whether a male or female artist is involved. They are both potentially as good as each other as far as I am concerned.


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## paulbest

Just arrived Livia Rev/Hyperion/recorded 1990, OOP but can be order off Hyperion's web site at $40. 3 cd set.
Also just arrived
Cecile Ousset/EMI/recorded 1986/OOP but can be ordered from arkiv music web site as ARKIV CD relaese.
Both definitive Debussy. 
*did i just hear you right?*
Yes sirs
*no such thing as definitive in anything music..*
OK, well lets agree on that, and let me rephrase, as close to definitive as you are going to get. Hows that, happier?
To my critical era, both Rev/1990 and Ousset/1986
represent the 2 finest recordings in Debussy. Ever.

I've heard pretty much all the majors. 
others may not agree, but I cast my vote for Livia rev and Cecile Ousset. 
That is to say, you do not need Bavouzet.
I will also go 1 further . Just arrived Cecile Ousset's Ravel /EMI has valses/Jeux/Sonatine/Miroirs . Not sure, but among my 10 recordings, Ousset may rank as 1st prize. Very likely so,. *Why so?*
Well because she is the only 1 of the 10 recordings that figured out how to play the notorious difficult Valses , a work which i completely gave up on finding *the ideal* recording.

and who was the one going around TC boards complaining griping , nagging, being a jerk about this notion that
women can't play Debussy
I mean as if he's heard every female recording and knows IT ALL.



WOW WHAT Ravel is this. Its like I saved the very finest for the very last. 
As though it were a gift dropped from heaven.


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## flamencosketches

Good God, your tastes are capricious :lol: From "women can't play Debussy" to "the two greatest Debussy recordings of all-time are by women" in under a week. Well, props for being able to admit when you're wrong. I have to say, your enthusiasm has piqued my interest re: Ms. Livia Rev. It appears she died last year (at age 101!); rest in peace.

Anyway, today is a special day. Happy 157th birthday to the great *Claude Debussy* :cheers:


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## starthrower

Amazing set I picked up for 17 dollars.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> Amazing set I picked up for 17 dollars.


I was trying to think of her name. She was the pianist who Debussy himself claimed to be the greatest performer of his works, no?


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## joen_cph

I think it was Satie, Poulenc and Ravel who recommended her in particular.

I have that set too, the info in there could be better, but there's some detailed stuff here for example:
https://www.thepianofiles.com/the-marvellous-marcelle-meyer/


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> I was trying to think of her name. She was the pianist who Debussy himself claimed to be the greatest performer of his works, no?


That seems unlikely. She was only 21 when he died. Any praise such as you query he gave would seem either premature or extravagant or both.


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## CnC Bartok

Apparently Debussy, in his frail last couple of years, gave her some repertoire-specific teaching. But yes, it was Les Six who she was even more associated with. Interesting article below, from Le Figaro 1945, about her, written by some chap called Francis Poulenc...

https://musicalgeography.org/2863-2/


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## Mandryka

I like Meyer's Debussy very much for its modesty, naturalness. 

Rev recorded Debussy twice, Saga and Hyperion.


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## paulbest

Mandryka said:


> I like Meyer's Debussy very much for it's modesty, naturalness.
> 
> Rev recorded Debussy twice, Saga and Hyperion.


I thought she may have, so i was correct. 
I instinctively bought the Hyperion, Its STUNNING and as i mention above, perhaps my fav along with Ousset of all my recordings. 
that is to say, the 2 women have trumped all my male recordings. 
Hours and hours of research paid off, big time. Livia Rev's 3 cd set Hyperion can be ordered from Hyperion's web site as arkived cd release. 
IMHO its the best bet,,,had i known, I would have bought that set from Hyperion, Instead I have single releases, and not so easy to locate.


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## flamencosketches

joen_cph said:


> I think it was Satie, Poulenc and Ravel who recommended her in particular.
> 
> I have that set too, the info in there could be better, but there's some detailed stuff here for example:
> https://www.thepianofiles.com/the-marvellous-marcelle-meyer/


Yes this seems more likely, but am I mistaken in thinking that there was a woman pianist of roughly that generation that Debussy praised highly in his music (whose music survives on recording)? Maybe I am just making a mix-up and thinking of Satie and Ms. Meyer, but I was thinking there was someone...


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## joen_cph

flamencosketches said:


> Yes this seems more likely, but am I mistaken in thinking that there was a woman pianist of roughly that generation that Debussy praised highly in his music (whose music survives on recording)? Maybe I am just making a mix-up and thinking of Satie and Ms. Meyer, but I was thinking there was someone...


There are several pianists associated with Debussy personally, but maybe you're thinking of Marguerite Long?


----------



## Guest

starthrower said:


> Amazing set I picked up for 17 dollars.


This seems to be identical to a now out-of-print EMI release. Does the set indicate that it is an authorized reissue of the EMI masters, or is it some sort of bootleg?


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## joen_cph

It's very widely available from many dealers, like most of this label's releases; I doubt it could illegally done.


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## Guest

joen_cph said:


> It's very widely available from many dealers, like most of this label's releases; I doubt it could illegally done.


It could be legally derived from original vinyl or shellac discs, rather than EMI's masters.

Seems too good to be true, is all.


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## Larkenfield

flamencosketches said:


> Yes this seems more likely, but am I mistaken in thinking that there was a woman pianist of roughly that generation that Debussy praised highly in his music (whose music survives on recording)? Maybe I am just making a mix-up and thinking of Satie and Ms. Meyer, but I was thinking there was someone...


Paquita Madriguera made a stunning early Duo-Arts piano roll performance (1916) of Debussy's _Deux arabesques No. 2 in G major_, and so did Myra Hess of his _La cathedrale engloutie_. Both can be found on a beautiful recording, and there are many other early performances of Debussy by other promiment pianists of the 1920s:

https://www.amazon.com/Grand-Piano-Ignacy-Jan-Paderewski/dp/B0000037LG.

Historically important with regard to early champions or performers of Debussy's music, including two of the women - one of my favorite Debussy recordings, in outstanding sound.


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## Mandryka

joen_cph said:


> There are several pianists associated with Debussy personally, but maybe you're thinking of Marguerite Long?


Did she record any Debussy?


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## joen_cph

Yes, it's on you-tube also. I don't think it was that much.


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## starthrower

Baron Scarpia said:


> This seems to be identical to a now out-of-print EMI release. Does the set indicate that it is an authorized reissue of the EMI masters, or is it some sort of bootleg?


It was re-issued on the Scottish Documents label which is one of several public domain labels. So not really a bootleg due to the copyright laws in Europe.


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## paulbest

Arrau Debussy
Years ago something about Arrau's approach , i felt was just not the ideal, connections were botched. 
It lacked a certain orcgain whole i wanted in Debussy.
Others i know like Arrau, just never came around to any of his LP's back in the day. 
IOW , I am not a fan of Arrau. 
Glad all his LP's are long gone out my collection and his cds might go cheap, i hold no interest.






EDIT,,,just cked amazon, lots of copies @ $6 this $6 includes!!! shipping,,,lol I KNEW IT, ,,huge dumping going on, ,,,lol


----------



## millionrainbows

paulbest said:


> My budget is pretty much spent,,if i can locate a good price, i'll buy it.
> Never seen it before, thanks
> Also Josquin33 mention above of
> Helene GRIMAUD.
> I love her Ravel concerto with Lopez Cobos and have on order, her later recording of the Ravel with Zinman.
> I also wish she had recorded more Debussy. It is getting alittle late now, she was born in 1979, making her near 40 yrs old.


Yes, I'm a fan of Helene Grimaud.


----------



## philoctetes

That Meyer box is a reissue of an old EMI box, has been available for years, and I have a copy ripped to file. I'm not that crazy about Meyer's Debussy I like her more with the baroque stuff... however... I thought of Magda Taliaferro and found that a similar box of her work became available this year..

Her Debussy is quite good IMO. Unfortunately typical for Amazon now the listing is already a mess and I had to get contents from Presto










Falla: Danse Espagnole No. 1 (from La Vida Breve)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Falla: El sombrero de tres picos: Danza del molinero (farruca)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Granados: Goyescas: Quejas ó La Maja y el Ruiseñor

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Granados: Danza española, Op. 37 No. 5 'Andaluza'

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Granados: Orientale (No. 2 from 12 Danzas españolas)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Albéniz: Seguidillas (No. 5 from Cantos de España, Op. 232)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Albéniz: Córdoba (No. 4 from Cantos de España, Op. 232)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Albéniz: Sevilla (from Suite Española, Op. 47)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Albéniz: Evocación (from Iberia, book 1)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Albéniz: Triana (from Iberia, book 2)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Villa-Lobos: Festa no sertão

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Villa-Lobos: Impressões Seresteiras

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Villa-Lobos: O polichinelo (No. 7 from A Próle do Bébé, Book 1)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Chabrier: Scherzo-valse (No. 10 from Pièces pittoresques)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Chabrier: Idylle (No. 6 from Pièces pittoresques)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Severac: Le retour des Muletiers (No. 5 from Five Picturesque Etudes)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Hahn, R: Le rossignol éperdu: Les reveries du Prince Eglantine

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Saint-Saëns: Etude en forme de valse (No. 6 from Six Études, Op. 52)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Debussy: Pour le piano

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Debussy: Arabesques (2)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Debussy: L'isle joyeuse

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Beethoven: Violin Sonata No. 9 in A major, Op. 47 'Kreutzer'

Manoug Parikian (violin), Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Beethoven: Violin Sonata No. 5 in F major, Op. 24 'Spring'

Manoug Parikian (violin), Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Villa-Lobos: Bachianas Brasileiras No. 8 for orchestra

Orchestre National de la Radiodiffusion Française
Heitor Villa-Lobos
Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Villa-Lobos: Mômoprecóce, fantasy for piano & orchestra, A. 240

Orchestre National de la Radiodiffusion Française
Heitor Villa-Lobos
Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Mozart: Violin Sonata No. 32 in B flat major, K454

Denise Soriano (violin), Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 26 in D major, K537 'Coronation'

Orchestre Pasdeloup
Reynaldo Hahn
Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Schumann: Piano Sonata No. 1 in F sharp minor, Op. 11

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Debussy: Estampe No. 3 - Jardins sous la pluie

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Debussy: Pour le Piano: Toccata

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Mompou: Jeunes Filles au Jardin

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Mompou: La Rue, le Guitariste et le Vieux Cheval

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Weber: Rondo Brillante in E flat major (La Gaité), J.252 (Op. 62)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Mendelssohn: Kinderstücke (6), Op. 72 'Christmas Pieces' No. 4

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Mendelssohn: Etude in F major, Op. 104b No. 2

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Chopin: Impromptu No. 4 in C sharp minor, Op. 66 'Fantaisie-Impromptu'

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Albéniz: Sevilla (from Suite Española, Op. 47)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Chopin: Waltz No. 5 in A flat major, Op. 42

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)
rec 1933

Chopin: Waltz No. 5 in A flat major, Op. 42

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)
rec 1951

Chopin: Andante spianato & Grande Polonaise, Op. 22

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Saint-Saëns: Piano Concerto No. 5 in F major, Op. 103 'Egyptian'

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Debussy: Clair de Lune (from Suite Bergamasque)

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Mompou: Jeunes Filles au Jardin

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Schumann: Faschingsschwank aus Wien, Op. 26

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Schumann: Romance in F sharp major, Op. 28 No. 2

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Fauré: Violin Sonata No. 1 in A major, Op. 13

Denise Soriano (violin), Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Hahn, R: Piano Concerto in E major

Reynaldo Hahn
Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Hahn, R: Sonatine in C

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)

Hahn, R: Sonatine in C

Magda Tagliaferro (piano)


----------



## starthrower

I bought the Meyer set for the baroque playing. The rest is a nice bonus. I don't think I've listened to her Debussy but I liked the Ravel.


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## Guest

paulbest said:


> You see THIS is EXACTLY what i am talking about, Here is a women;'s rendition of Debussy.
> Grimaud did not make a Debussy recording,,I wonder why..[...]*Debussy wrote solo piano for MEN ONLY*.





paulbest said:


> *Helene GRIMAUD*.
> I love her Ravel concerto with Lopez Cobos and have on order, her later recording of the Ravel with Zinman.
> *I also wish she had recorded more Debussy.* It is getting alittle late now, she was born in 1979, making her near 40 yrs old.


Will the real paulbest please stand up (when you get back of course).


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## starthrower

MacLeod said:


> Will the real paulbest please stand up (when you get back of course).


That's my signal to head to another thread. These rigid and contradictory pronouncements have become more than a little tiring.


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## Guest

I listened to the Debussy Fantasie for Piano and Orchestra. I've listened to it before, but it did not make an impression before I listened to the Kocsis recording.

Any favorite performances you'd like to mention?


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## joen_cph

Haven't heard Kocsis & it's probably good; I like Martinon/EMI, but the one with Kars not particularly. There's also an old historical Gieseking/Mengelberg with poor sound, obviously, but I prefer reasonably modern sound in Debussy.


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## CnC Bartok

Baron Scarpia said:


> I listened to the Debussy Fantasie for Piano and Orchestra. I've listened to it before, but it did not make an impression before I listened to the Kocsis recording.
> 
> Any favorite performances you'd like to mention?


I've only got the Ciccolini/Martinon that Joen mentions. To be honest I think there are good reasons why the composer withdrew it. True, he could be very self-critical, but this isn't a great work, for me anyway.....good luck with the Kocsis though!


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## joen_cph

Actually, I think it's a beautiful work. The sound in Martinon is a bit vague though (LP and Brilliant CD transfer).


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## Guest

CnC Bartok said:


> I've only got the Ciccolini/Martinon that Joen mentions. To be honest I think there are good reasons why the composer withdrew it. True, he could be very self-critical, but this isn't a great work, for me anyway.....good luck with the Kocsis though!


The Martinon/Ciccolini is the first one I listened to (years ago) and it didn't do much for me. I find the sound on the whole Martinon/EMI set to be unsatisfying. With Kocsis it got through to me. Not my favorite work of Debussy, by a long shot, but far from the worst, IMO.


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## flamencosketches

Baron Scarpia said:


> The Martinon/Ciccolini is the first one I listened to (years ago) and it didn't do much for me. I find the sound on the whole Martinon/EMI set to be unsatisfying. With Kocsis it got through to me. Not my favorite work of Debussy, by a long shot, but far from the worst, IMO.


This begs the question. What is the worst piece of Debussy? Nothing comes to mind as particularly bad.


----------



## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> This begs the question. What is the worst piece of Debussy? Nothing comes to mind as particularly bad.


Worst, I don't know. One I find no enjoyment in is the "Children's corner." Khamma even less so. Also, some of the minor single-movement works for solo piano strike me as pretty forgettable. At some point I would have cited Jeux, but it has grown on me.


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## CnC Bartok

Jeux hasn't grown on me, alas, but overall it's very very hard to find anything by Debussy that one could label "trash".....


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## Guest

CnC Bartok said:


> Jeux hasn't grown on me, alas, but overall it's very very hard to find anything by Debussy that one could label "trash".....


The Shui/Singapore recording helped me with Jeux (slower than usual, and very colorful). You have to embrace the meandering. Keep reminding yourself it's very modern.


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## Guest

Returning to the Preludes, this time Kocsis, starting with Book I.

I usually don't like miniatures, but these pieces are the exception. I can't stop listening to these little gems, with their erratic outbursts of sound.

Last time through was Arrau, a very poetic approach to the music. This time, Kocsis, who is a bit more straightforward. After listening to the first six I am enjoying Kocsis's approach to the preludes. I recall a comment Mandryka made with respect to Cortot's recording (maybe on another board) that too often you find yourself listening to these pieces, squirming in your chair thinking "it's oh-so-beautiful" when maybe it should be just fun. Kocsis leans towards the fun camp.


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## lextune

flamencosketches said:


> This begs the question. What is the worst piece of Debussy? Nothing comes to mind as particularly bad.


Debussy certainly did not write any "bad" music. That said, his development as a composer was relatively slow, by master composer standards. 
His music grew from; wonderful, but young and searching, to musical genius of the highest order.


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## Guest

I got the notion that my Debussy fatigue might actually be Kocsis fatigue and listened to some Ciccolini recordings for contrast. Fantasied for Piano and Orchestra, and Pour le piano. Both were engaging and refreshing. A generally higher level of clarity and transparency. A recording perspective which is very dry helps. The Fantasie was also successful. What I have thought of as bad sound was more pleasing this time around. Peculiar sound stage, but the wonderful "French" sound of the orchestra coming through. The horns and trumpets were very attractive whenever they entered.


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## millionrainbows

Baron Scarpia said:


> Worst, I don't know. One I find no enjoyment in is the "Children's corner." Khamma even less so. Also, some of the minor single-movement works for solo piano strike me as pretty forgettable. At some point I would have cited Jeux, but it has grown on me.


I agree about "Children's Corner" (what do they do over there in the corner?)

Most of the comparative criticism with Ravel is fueled by this kind of pablum. Of course, Ravel had the benefit of foresight, for territory Debussy had already blazed.


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> I agree about "Children's Corner" (what do they do over there in the corner?)
> 
> Most of the comparative criticism with Ravel is fueled by this kind of pablum. Of course, Ravel had the benefit of foresight, for territory Debussy had already blazed.


They were writing their great works at about the same time and I find their their styles to be quite distinct, so I'm not sure either of them had the trail _blazed _by the other.


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## millionrainbows

Arrived moments ago. First up: Debussy Preludes, Book II. Sounds good so far.

Marcelle Meyer: Complete Studio Recordings 1925-1957


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## starthrower

I need to dig out that set and listen to some of it. After I get off my Bach binge.


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> I need to dig out that set and listen to some of it. After I get off my Bach binge.


I listened to a sample of prelude I (book I). Why does it have to be so good?


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## CnC Bartok

Just to say, I am more than just enjoying this, my newest investment:


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## Guest

CnC Bartok said:


> Just to say, I am more than just enjoying this, my newest investment:
> 
> View attachment 123488


Glad to hear you're enjoying it.


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## flamencosketches

That definitely looks like a worthy purchase. I'm going to sample some of the recordings.


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## lextune

"Debussy's great service to music was to reawaken among all musicians an awareness of harmony and its possibilities. In that, he was just as important as Beethoven, who revealed to us the possibilities of progressive form, or as Bach, who showed us the transcendent significance of counterpoint. Now, what I am always asking myself is this: is it possible to make a synthesis of these three great masters, a living synthesis that will be valid for our time?

-Bartok (1939)


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## Guest

The Preludes are probably my favorite works by Debussy, and I've just listened through another set, by Kocsis. Worthy performances, on the less dreamy side of the spectrum. Perhaps the best thing about the set is that his performance of some of the more "calm" preludes (La cathédrale engloutie, Bruyères) is less calm than usual, more engaging. In some of the more virtuoso pieces he seems to try to go to far, and his technique is not as immaculate as some.

I'm reminded that I tend to like Book I a bit more than Book II. In Book I I have the impression of pure music inspired by a thought or image. In Book II Debussy seems (to me) to go farther into scene painting, which I don't find as attractive.

I will put the pieces aside for a while, but I think the next set I will listen through will be Ciccolini, who in some quick excerpts I listened to, seemed to achieve a greater level of clarity fo texture than other pianists I have listened to.


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## Blancrocher

Enjoyed this article on Debussy:

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v41/n20/nicholas-spice/ne-me-touchez-pas

The most interesting part for me was the claim (which appears in Stephen Walsh's recent book) that "the modern concert piano is incapable of the differentiations of pianissimo that Debussy asks for."

Does anyone know of any good period-instrument recordings of his piano music? There's a recording from Immerseel in the following playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLblQ3ofZwdk0SJBARSqJEv_0fesHXJMMY

His version of the preludes/images is also on Spotify.


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## Mandryka

Blancrocher said:


> Does anyone know of any good period-instrument recordings of his piano music?


Cassard

Be EMN Ss mnsxem:n


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## Josquin13

Blancrocher asks, "Does anyone know of any good period-instrument recordings of his piano music?"

Listed in no particular order, here are the recordings that I know & like of Debussy's piano music as played on period pianos (& you can sample most of them on You Tube):

1) Arthur Schooderwoerd--on an CD entitled, "Une flute invisible...", where he plays Debussy's Six épigraphes antiques, & various French Melodies (sung by Sandrine Piau & Hervé Lamy): This is the most illuminating Debussy I've heard played on a period piano--here a 1907 Erard; at least, in regards to Debussy's exotic, contemporary sound world (I'd imagine). Unfortunately, most of the CD is otherwise devoted to French songs, but it does include a fascinating rendition of Debussy's Trois chansons de Bilitis, sung by Piau (& she's better here than on her Mélodies disc with Immerseel, IMO). To quote Christopher Dingle at BBC Music Magazine, "In Schoonderwoerd's hands, the less 'pure' tuning of the 1907 Erard's upper registers shimmers like dust in sunlight, while De Talhouet's wooden flutes are bewitching."

--Six epigraphes antiques (which are unfortunately broken up on the CD & interspersed between the mélodies):

























--Trois chansons de Bilitis:













http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Gilles-de-Talhouët/Performer/158905-2

I wish Schoonderwoerd would record more Debussy on this 1907 Erard piano, as I treasure his playing here.

2) Jos van Immerseel--on Channel Classics: Immerseel plays the Preludes Book 1, Images oubliées, and Images inédites, on a 1897 Erard piano. He has also recorded a disc of Debussy Mélodies with soprano Sandrine Piau.






3) Stany David Lasry--on the Arcana label (a reissue): Lasry plays the Preludes Books 1 & 2, Images, Children's Corner, Estampes, Pour le piano, on both a 1921 Erard and a 1874 Erard. There is also a separate disc of Debussy Mélodies, with bass-baritone Thierry Felix. The entire piano set can be heard on YT:






https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8400054--debussy-pour-le-piano-estampes-preludes
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8400055--debussy-melodies

4) "Hommage à Debussy" a four volume piano series, released by the Geniun label: The cycle is played on a Leipzig Blüthner Model 1 Concert Grand piano. However, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think it's an antique Blüthner piano ... nevertheless, Debussy did play on a Blüthner grand piano, and the Blüthner company, who has partly sponsored the project, maintains that the piano used here is "very close in sound to the Debussy Blüthner grand". So far, I've only heard Juliana Steinbach's volume 1, which I liked--though I wouldn't claim that she's a 1st choice in every work she plays here, but she does play well:





https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8006155--hommage-a-debussy-works-for-piano-vol-1.

5) Philippe Cassard--a cycle on the Auvidis label. Cassard plays on a 1898 Bechstein, and I find him at his most interesting in the 12 Etudes, which also happen to be the best sound recording of the set (& in the duet music with François Chaplin, but that's on a Steinway): 



. Cassard has also recorded several remarkable Debussy Mélodies CDs with French soprano, Veronique Dietschy, which are among the finest in the catalogue, IMO (they are included in The Debussy Edition on DG). But I'm not sure whether he plays the 1898 Bechstein on these recordings, as the booklet notes don't mention it, and it doesn't quite sound like it... ?:














https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8007591--debussy-the-piano-works

6) Alain Planés--a cycle on Harmonia Mundi. Planés divides his Debussy series between a modern Steinway and two period pianos: The Preludes Books 1 & 2 are played on a 1897 Bechstein (which took some adjusting to, for me), while he uses a 1902 Blüthner in the Suite Bergamasque, Children's Corner, and Images Books 1 & 2 (which is the more interesting disc from the standpoint of period performance, IMO: https://www.amazon.com/Childrens-Co...hildrens+corner&qid=1573337435&s=music&sr=1-1). Planés Etudes are particularly fine, but here he uses a Steinway. (Btw, Planés other Steinway discs are excellent, too).

At $13.25 for 5 discs, Planés cycle is presently a good bargain at Presto Classical (as the set is a leftover from the recent 150th anniversary year): https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8395392--debussy-complete-piano-works

7) Alexei Lubimov, on ECM--Lubimov plays the Preludes Books 1 & 2 on a 1925 Bechstein (Book 1) and a 1913 Steinway (Book 2), along with works for piano duet--including Ravel's piano duet transcription of Debussy's Trois Nocturnes, with Alexei Zuev: 



, and Debussy's own piano duet transcription of his Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun. Note that Lubimov wasn't as much concerned with finding an 'authentic' period sound in these Preludes, as he was in finding antique pianos that were interesting and highly suitable to explore Debussy's unique sound world on:

https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Prel...4&refinements=p_32:Alexei+Zuev&s=music&sr=1-1
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Apr13/Debussy_preludes_ECM2241.htm

8) Hubert Rutkowski, "Early Piano Works": played on an 1880 Erard. The whole album is on YT: 



. I've enjoyed Rutkowski's excellent disc, and am fascinated by the superb sound of such an early Erard piano in this likewise early Debussy piano music: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8068151--debussy-early-piano-works

Hope that helps.

Edit: P.S. That was an interesting article on Debussy, thanks.


----------



## millionrainbows

Baron Scarpia said:


> ...but the wonderful "French" sound of the orchestra coming through. The horns and trumpets were very attractive whenever they entered.


How would you characterize the "French" orchestral sound? I'm not sure, except as a vague notion of "softer" compared to a "German" sound.


----------



## millionrainbows

I've got the Jos van Immerseel. As far as I can tell, the differences seem to be mechanical, with the pedals and what they can do, and resonances thus created, turning it into sort of a "harp." It seems to me that a really good modern player, on a modern piano, would be able to do this; maybe not, if it's an actual pedal function-thing.

I think that harmonically, Debussy would have _loved_ our ability to perfectly tune a piano in ET, for those shimmering whole tone scale sounds.


----------



## Janspe

I'm currently listening through the complete piano works (as interpreted Aldo Ciccolini, in the complete recording that was mentioned earlier on this thread) and I've just realized once again how much I adore the _Images_ - every single piece is just an absolute marvel. I love Debussy so much!


----------



## Mark Emanuele

Ephemerid said:


> When I was a teenager I first discovered Debussy and opened my ears to a whole new way of listening to music... I'm not even sure what prompted me to purchase some bargain cassette of Debussy's *Nocturnes *(side 2 had Ravel's *Bolero *which was another lovely surprise to my budding ears).
> 
> If you intend on seriously getting into Debussy, the following are ESSENTIAL compositions:
> 
> Orchestral:
> *The Afternoon of the Faun *(this piece never ceases to amaze me)
> *Nocturnes
> La Mer
> Images
> Jeux
> **Symphonic Sketches from The Martyrdom of St. Sebastien *
> *Danse sacree et profane *for harp and strings
> And Claudio Abbado has done a _concert suite _from *Pelleas et Melisande *which is good as well


I have recently (2019) recorded Nocturnes with ORSO. I have uploaded it to my YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwIuLQTYyAnsaBh5Kqi0j2g/videos?view_as=subscriber
Here is the direct link to Nocturnes:


----------



## millionrainbows

I got some of his songs on a budget set, and I really like them! Also, I can't quite get past Paul Jacobs on Nonesuch. Recorded the way I like it, and he was so good...


----------



## violadude

Video I made about Debussy...just gonna put that right here...


----------



## Tchaikov6

finally finished all of debussy, he's definitely my favorite composer. here's my top 20!!

1. piano preludes books 1 + 2 (invented music)
2. la mer
3. prelude to the afternoon of a faun
4. images for orchestra
5. string quartet
6. nocturnes
7. pelleas et melisande
8. estampes
9. l'isle joyeuse
10. danse sacree et profane
11. images for piano books 1 + 2
12. fantasie for piano and orchestra
13. etudes
14. suite bergamasque
15. children's corner
16. jeux
17. sonata for harp flute and viola
18. 2 arabesques
19. pour le piano
20. petite suite

all of these are sooo awesome though, hard to rank


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## Michael122

Stellar list, Tchaikov6! Curious though, why were Claire De Lune, Reverie, and Girl With the Flaxen Hair omitted?


----------



## Neo Romanza

Tchaikov6 said:


> finally finished all of debussy, he's definitely my favorite composer. here's my top 20!!
> 
> 1. piano preludes books 1 + 2 (invented music)
> 2. la mer
> 3. prelude to the afternoon of a faun
> 4. images for orchestra
> 5. string quartet
> 6. nocturnes
> 7. pelleas et melisande
> 8. estampes
> 9. l'isle joyeuse
> 10. danse sacree et profane
> 11. images for piano books 1 + 2
> 12. fantasie for piano and orchestra
> 13. etudes
> 14. suite bergamasque
> 15. children's corner
> 16. jeux
> 17. sonata for harp flute and viola
> 18. 2 arabesques
> 19. pour le piano
> 20. petite suite
> 
> all of these are sooo awesome though, hard to rank


Not a fan of any of the mélodies?

P.S. Debussy is my favorite composer above all others.


----------



## Livly_Station

I'll say somthing weird...

I rate Debussy's piano work very highly (love many pieces), but I haven't yet enjoyed the _Preludes_ as a set.


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## Chatellerault

Michael122 said:


> Stellar list, Tchaikov6! Curious though, why were Claire De Lune, Reverie, and Girl With the Flaxen Hair omitted?


Claire De Lune is part of Suite Bergamasque; Girl With the Flaxen Hair is part of Preludes Book I


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## Torkelburger

Nice video, violadude! Yes, I am also a Debussy fanboy. He has always been in my top 5 favs of all time. Violadude, I think you chose the best pieces for your introductory video. It is too bad you couldn't fit 6 on there as the SQ would be great to include as well.

It would be nice if you could show more scores in your videos with analysis. I saw a brief score analysis in the Stravinsky video, but more would be helpful. Also, in Andreyev's videos, he plays reductions of the score on the piano and videos his hands on the keys...sometimes at a slower tempo, and it is quite insightful. Not sure if you have a piano or piano chops, though.

I would have mentioned more in the _Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun_ that he really tore down tradition from the past by emphasizing/exploiting the tritone interval. Not just in the famous opening melody, but in the counterpoint (like the horns passage), but in the harmonies (both vertical and horizontal--like a prevalence of chords whose roots are a tritone apart). Absolutely ground-breaking at the time. It's like an "emancipation of the tritone" so-to-speak. Gives that unique sense of ambiguity. Not only that, but it's what gives the satisfying resolution at the end when the tritone resolves to the fourth (as in the melody).

Debussy's piano pieces are my favorite of modern times. Not just because of the obvious harmonic language, etc., but because of the *pianism* itself. If I was to teach a modern composition student how to write for the piano, I would most certainly use Debussy as a model, even over Shostokovich, Bartok, Stravinsky, and others. Debussy, more than anyone else IMO, showed that there are literally at the very least a half a dozen very unique and interesting ways to play a single idea on the piano, and so a composer can figure out what technique best suits the idea he has in mind instead of just resorting to the same old same old.


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## Manxfeeder

Torkelburger said:


> It's like an "emancipation of the tritone" so-to-speak.


Interesting observation. The use of tritones goes all the way back to Perotin, but it does seem like the 20th Century had an obsession with those things.


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## Tchaikov6

Neo Romanza said:


> Not a fan of any of the mélodies?
> 
> P.S. Debussy is my favorite composer above all others.


Love the melodies but not enough to make my list as individuals.


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## RMinNJ

I loved your video!! I really laughed out loud too -- hysterical. And informative!


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## starthrower

Violadude is our Victor Borge of classical instruction videos. But without the piano.


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## fluteman

Torkelburger said:


> Nice video, violadude! Yes, I am also a Debussy fanboy. He has always been in my top 5 favs of all time. Violadude, I think you chose the best pieces for your introductory video. It is too bad you couldn't fit 6 on there as the SQ would be great to include as well.
> 
> It would be nice if you could show more scores in your videos with analysis. I saw a brief score analysis in the Stravinsky video, but more would be helpful. Also, in Andreyev's videos, he plays reductions of the score on the piano and videos his hands on the keys...sometimes at a slower tempo, and it is quite insightful. Not sure if you have a piano or piano chops, though.
> 
> I would have mentioned more in the _Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun_ that he really tore down tradition from the past by emphasizing/exploiting the tritone interval. Not just in the famous opening melody, but in the counterpoint (like the horns passage), but in the harmonies (both vertical and horizontal--like a prevalence of chords whose roots are a tritone apart). Absolutely ground-breaking at the time. It's like an "emancipation of the tritone" so-to-speak. Gives that unique sense of ambiguity. Not only that, but it's what gives the satisfying resolution at the end when the tritone resolves to the fourth (as in the melody).
> 
> Debussy's piano pieces are my favorite of modern times. Not just because of the obvious harmonic language, etc., but because of the *pianism* itself. If I was to teach a modern composition student how to write for the piano, I would most certainly use Debussy as a model, even over Shostokovich, Bartok, Stravinsky, and others. Debussy, more than anyone else IMO, showed that there are literally at the very least a half a dozen very unique and interesting ways to play a single idea on the piano, and so a composer can figure out what technique best suits the idea he has in mind instead of just resorting to the same old same old.


Wow. Great post, well said on all counts. Thanks. IMHO, Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun really ushers in the modern music era, and not just due to tritones. Of course, as a flute player, I am grateful that it ended a 71-year drought for great solo flute music in the European classical tradition, after Schubert's Introduction and Variations on a theme from Die schone Mullerin of 1823.

Still, my favorite Debussy is his solo piano music.

edit: Great video, violadude. Again, wow.


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## 89Koechel

fluteman - Excellent post of your own, the 11:31. Well, as a FLUTE MAN, I'm sure you favor the Debussy composition - Sonata for Flute, Viola and Harp. There's a certain BALANCE that Debussy had, between the suggestive/impressionistic (somewhat like French painters had) and the solid basics. Thanks also, for that example of Schubert's Die Schone Mullerin, and the theme - I'm sure that hardly any of us were aware of this parallel, before.


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## Cortot

I made a video: composers influenced by Debussy. With this video, I think it can be seen why Debussy was the first modern composer and one of the most influential composers of all time (perhaps the most influential after Bach).


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## Mandryka

Cortot said:


> I made a video: composers influenced by Debussy. With this video, I think it can be seen why Debussy was the first modern composer and one of the most influential composers of all time (perhaps the most influential after Bach).


Possibly, but not all his music. The key one, possibly the only one, for influencing modernity is Jeux, because its form impressed Boulez and Stockhausen so much that they promoted it in Darmstadt.


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## Cortot

Mandryka said:


> Possibly, but not all his music. The key one, possibly the only one, for influencing modernity is Jeux, because its form impressed Boulez and Stockhausen so much that they promoted it in Darmstadt.


Yes, I actually agree. Debussy's previous works (such as the Faun, Pelleas, Preludes) were real steps towards modernism, but they were not entirely far from romanticism. But I think there is no doubt that Jeux is the key work as you say. Apart from the Darmstadt school, composers like Ligeti were also very influenced by Jeux (I showed it in the video).


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## Torkelburger

> Possibly, but not all his music.


Of course, not ALL of it. His early works, including _L'Enfant peodigue_ and _La Damoiselle elue_ have an expressive, lyrical melodic style inspired by Massenet, for example. But he was one of the most important, if not THE most important in influencing modern music of the 20th century, including the Second Viennese School. The _Preludes_ (especially!), and _Faun_, _Nocturnes_, _La Mer_, etc. were heavily influential, not just _Jeux_.



> The key one, possibly the only one, for influencing modernity is Jeux, because its form impressed Boulez and Stockhausen so much that they promoted it in Darmstadt.


What utter nonsense. Modernity does not revolve around Boulez, Stockhausen, and Darmstadt. And Boulez was influenced more than just the triviality of "form". Indonesian Gamelan that influenced _Le Marteau_ also influenced the _Preludes_, coincidentally. But serial composition techniques were adopted straight from the techniques in the _Preludes_, such as invariant set-segment construction.

Stravinsky, Bartok, and Scriabin were directly influenced by Debussy as well as the same composers that influenced Debussy himself, including the Russian nationalists Rimsky-Korsakov and Mussorgsky. It was the direct use of symmetrical structures, namely octatonic, whole-tone, pentatonic scales, and modes, as well as synthetic scales such as the overtone scale-all exploited in Debussy's later works. The key point was equal/symmetrical division of the octave that yields inversionally symmetrical relations. This was in direct defiance/replacement of the tonal system and the chromaticism of Wagner and Strauss and would lead to equalization of the 12 tones.

In Debussy we begin to see interest in sound for its own sake as a sonic event, as there are isolations of pitch, texture, and stratification of materials.

The tendency in the _Preludes_ is for an equal treatment of the 12 chromatic pitches. A set of chromatic pitches acts as a neutralizing force that lets shared segments to evolve into other sets, such as whole tone, pentatonic, octatonic, etc. Since a chromatic set contains all 12 tones, it can make any other collection. This technique helped Debussy set himself apart from assumptions of tonality.



> but they were not entirely far from romanticism.


Depends on how you look at it. Not only is it different in how I outlined above, but there are instances, such as the _Nocturnes_, where the leading tone, third, fifth of chords and scales are completely omitted. Not very romantic in my book.


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## Cortot

Torkelburger said:


> Of course, not ALL of it. His early works, including _L'Enfant peodigue_ and _La Damoiselle elue_ have an expressive, lyrical melodic style inspired by Massenet, for example. But he was one of the most important, if not THE most important in influencing modern music of the 20th century, including the Second Viennese School. The _Preludes_ (especially!), and _Faun_, _Nocturnes_, _La Mer_, etc. were heavily influential, not just _Jeux_.
> 
> What utter nonsense. Modernity does not revolve around Boulez, Stockhausen, and Darmstadt. And Boulez was influenced more than just the triviality of "form". Indonesian Gamelan that influenced _Le Marteau_ also influenced the _Preludes_, coincidentally. But serial composition techniques were adopted straight from the techniques in the _Preludes_, such as invariant set-segment construction.
> 
> Stravinsky, Bartok, and Scriabin were directly influenced by Debussy as well as the same composers that influenced Debussy himself, including the Russian nationalists Rimsky-Korsakov and Mussorgsky. It was the direct use of symmetrical structures, namely octatonic, whole-tone, pentatonic scales, and modes, as well as synthetic scales such as the overtone scale-all exploited in Debussy's later works. The key point was equal/symmetrical division of the octave that yields inversionally symmetrical relations. This was in direct defiance/replacement of the tonal system and the chromaticism of Wagner and Strauss and would lead to equalization of the 12 tones.
> 
> In Debussy we begin to see interest in sound for its own sake as a sonic event, as there are isolations of pitch, texture, and stratification of materials.
> 
> The tendency in the _Preludes_ is for an equal treatment of the 12 chromatic pitches. A set of chromatic pitches acts as a neutralizing force that lets shared segments to evolve into other sets, such as whole tone, pentatonic, octatonic, etc. Since a chromatic set contains all 12 tones, it can make any other collection. This technique helped Debussy set himself apart from assumptions of tonality.
> 
> Depends on how you look at it. Not only is it different in how I outlined above, but there are instances, such as the _Nocturnes_, where the leading tone, third, fifth of chords and scales are completely omitted. Not very romantic in my book.


I guess I didn't express myself well. Yes it is important how we see modern and the works you mentioned are more modern than romantic in my opinion too, but they also have a bit of a romantic aesthetic, Jeux is a piece that can be called 100% modern in harmonic, form and rhythm; it was already showing its real impact in the after 1950s.

Debussy has a new perspective not only on tonality but also on form and rhythm. Faune destroyed Wagner and opened the door to the modern approach (Boulez also says this, I showed it in the video). But, other hand, Jeux is like the last of this cycle. In the Faun, for example, there is a recurring theme, although it changes slightly; but Jeux takes a purely momentary approach It just makes it a little more modern than the Faun. That's what I meant. I think it is possible to consider some avant-garde sections in preludes or etudes as modern.

It seems to me that Debussy was the first. Faun, Pelleas, La Mer, Preludes, etudes or Jeux... Each piece was a new step.


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## Torkelburger

> Jeux is a piece that can be called 100% modern in harmonic, form and rhythm.


I beg to differ. I could easily say the _Preludes_ did the same. Several of his pieces, really. He already had pieces using non-triadic harmonies, non-tonal scales, non-functional chord progressions, etc. way before _Jeux_. He already had been using modern symmetrical forms as well. Not just ABA (a symmetrical form), but arch forms (ABCBA) specifically because they were symmetrical, and he also used the Fibonacci series and Golden Section as in the _Preludes_ (he was exposed to this through his painting friends, French Symbolists). And _Faun_ was rhythmically modern in many ways, obfuscating things with the prevalence of tied notes over the beat, etc.



> it was already showing its real impact in the after 1950s.


He was already showing major impacts WAY before the 1950's. Such as with Ives in the 1900's!!! Why the focus on the 1950's? Why ignore Ives, Stravinsky, Bartok, Scriabin, et al?



> Debussy has a new perspective not only on tonality but also on form and rhythm. Faune destroyed Wagner and opened the door to the modern approach (Boulez also says this, I showed it in the video). But, other hand, Jeux is like the last of this cycle. In the Faun, for example, there is a recurring theme, although it changes slightly; but Jeux takes a purely momentary approach It just makes it a little more modern than the Faun. That's what I meant. I think it is possible to consider some avant-garde sections in preludes or etudes as modern.


Whether there is a recurring theme or not is not what makes something modern. There's a lot more to it than that. If you are going to simply focus on that alone to the exclusion of everything else he was doing at the time is just cherry-picking.

If you want to say _Jeux_ is MORE modern, fine. But saying it is the ONLY piece that influenced modernity is dead wrong. The modern era began _decades_ before the 1950s and was influenced by other Debussy pieces than just _Jeux_. To suggest otherwise is factually and demonstrably false.



> It seems to me that Debussy was the first. Faun, Pelleas, La Mer, Preludes, etudes or Jeux... Each piece was a new step.


Okay, yeah, I'll agree with that.


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## Mandryka

Torkelburger said:


> Of course, not ALL of it. His early works, including _L'Enfant peodigue_ and _La Damoiselle elue_ have an expressive, lyrical melodic style inspired by Massenet, for example. But he was one of the most important, if not THE most important in influencing modern music of the 20th century, including the Second Viennese School. The _Preludes_ (especially!), and _Faun_, _Nocturnes_, _La Mer_, etc. were heavily influential, not just _Jeux_.
> 
> What utter nonsense. Modernity does not revolve around Boulez, Stockhausen, and Darmstadt. And Boulez was influenced more than just the triviality of "form". Indonesian Gamelan that influenced _Le Marteau_ also influenced the _Preludes_, coincidentally. But serial composition techniques were adopted straight from the techniques in the _Preludes_, such as invariant set-segment construction.
> 
> Stravinsky, Bartok, and Scriabin were directly influenced by Debussy as well as the same composers that influenced Debussy himself, including the Russian nationalists Rimsky-Korsakov and Mussorgsky. It was the direct use of symmetrical structures, namely octatonic, whole-tone, pentatonic scales, and modes, as well as synthetic scales such as the overtone scale-all exploited in Debussy's later works. The key point was equal/symmetrical division of the octave that yields inversionally symmetrical relations. This was in direct defiance/replacement of the tonal system and the chromaticism of Wagner and Strauss and would lead to equalization of the 12 tones.
> 
> In Debussy we begin to see interest in sound for its own sake as a sonic event, as there are isolations of pitch, texture, and stratification of materials.
> 
> The tendency in the _Preludes_ is for an equal treatment of the 12 chromatic pitches. A set of chromatic pitches acts as a neutralizing force that lets shared segments to evolve into other sets, such as whole tone, pentatonic, octatonic, etc. Since a chromatic set contains all 12 tones, it can make any other collection. This technique helped Debussy set himself apart from assumptions of tonality.
> 
> Depends on how you look at it. Not only is it different in how I outlined above, but there are instances, such as the _Nocturnes_, where the leading tone, third, fifth of chords and scales are completely omitted. Not very romantic in my book.


The fact remains that Jeux was the big deal in Darmstadt and so Jeux is the big deal in 20th century modernism. The preludes may have influenced in some way Bartok and Scriabin and Shostakovich and the very early Messiaen, but that's quite a different thing.


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## Torkelburger

Mandryka said:


> The fact remains that Jeux was the big deal in Darmstadt and so Jeux is the big deal in 20th century modernism. The preludes may have influenced in some way Bartok and Scriabin and Shostakovich and the very early Messiaen, but that's quite a different thing.


See, that's the thing. It isn't. I love Boulez; and while Darmstadt is great, it is completely ridiculous to put so much emphasis on it that you equate it with all of modernism itself, so much that you make blanketed statements like Jeux is the only piece that influenced modernity because it impressed Boulez and the other Darmstadt composers (as if they are the only ones that matter).

Darmstadt represents only a vast minority of composers and thought in the 20th century. That is a fact. The 20th century had a far more majority of non-serial, non-Avant Garde composers not associated with Darmstadt, the Second Viennese School, Boulez, or any one in that niche.


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## Torkelburger

Mandryka said:


> The fact remains that Jeux was the big deal in Darmstadt and so Jeux is the big deal in 20th century modernism. The preludes may have influenced in some way Bartok and Scriabin and Shostakovich and the very early Messiaen, but that's quite a different thing.


Also, it wasn't just that one piece influencing just those select composers. If you'd read my posts, you'd see it was many of Debussy's pieces, influencing a large number of composers (even more than I named).


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## Cortot

> But saying it is the ONLY piece that influenced modernity is dead wrong.


No no, of course, I am definitely not saying such a thing . More inclusively: Debussy's early important works (Faun, Pelleas, La Mer etc.) were also revolutionary, modern and influenced many composers (Messiaen, Webern, Stravinsky, Bartok, Varese, Ravel etc.-i also showed the argument in the video I presented-). These works are modern, and they are influential to modern composers, but I think the romantic aesthetic is felt a bit... Jeux had a longer impact (Carter, Stockhausen, Boulez, Ligeti, Birtwistle) and I don't feel any romantic aesthetics. I just think it's a little more modern. Some preludes and some etudes (i.e. late works) I think it is more modern than the first works. It can be equivalent to Jeux, I have no objection, i will think. But I think there is an obvious difference between Faun and Jeux.


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## Cortot

Apart from these, I thought that preludes were a revolution especially in pianism. Debussy comes from Chopin and Liszt as pianist and piano composer, but he captures the piano's own identity more than they do. Debussy removes Chopin's Bel Canto influence on the piano and Liszt's orchestral influence on the piano. Both as a composer and a pianist.


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## Torkelburger

Cortot said:


> Apart from these, I thought that preludes were a revolution especially in pianism. Debussy comes from Chopin and Liszt as pianist and piano composer, but he captures the piano's own identity more than they do. Debussy removes Chopin's Bel Canto influence on the piano and Liszt's orchestral influence on the piano.


Very good point. I agree. I always say that if I were to teach composition and we were covering the subject of writing for the piano, I would use Debussy's piano music as a model. Especially for modern writing (besides the extended techniques (playing the strings directly with your hands, etc.)). Over any other composer, most definitely and without question. Just IMHO.


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## Neo Romanza

It's surprising to me that so many people here fail to acknowledge the _Études_. Like _Jeux_, they hail from his last period, but are completely modern in their outlook. Any serious composer after Debussy has heard this work and has been influenced by it in one way or another.


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## Mandryka

Neo Romanza said:


> It's surprising to me that so many people here fail to acknowledge the _Études_. Like _Jeux_, they hail from his last period, but are completely modern in their outlook. Any serious composer after Debussy has heard this work and has been influenced by it in one way or another.


Maybe. I'm not sure what to say about them, to me they sound pretty sui generis, but I don't know piano music so well. It's true that there seems to have been a real fad for writing Etudes in the c20 - whether Debussy is part of this fad or the cause of it I couldn't say.


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## Janspe

Neo Romanza said:


> It's surprising to me that so many people here fail to acknowledge the _Études_. Like _Jeux_, they hail from his last period, but are completely modern in their outlook. Any serious composer after Debussy has heard this work and has been influenced by it in one way or another.


I've always loved the études of Debussy and for me they are hands down the finest piano pieces he ever wrote!

Today I revisited the sonata for flute, viola and harp - what a work! It's one of those pieces where it feels like each note is exactly where it should be.


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## HerbertNorman

Janspe said:


> I've always loved the études of Debussy and for me they are hands down the finest piano pieces he ever wrote!
> 
> Today I revisited the *sonata for flute, viola and harp* - what a work! It's one of those pieces where it feels like each note is exactly where it should be.


It's a masterpiece! I like it very much too... I've seen it being played live and that was a great experience. I do feel that shows you even more what a great piece of music it is.


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## John Zito

Janspe said:


> Today I revisited the sonata for flute, viola and harp - what a work! It's one of those pieces where it feels like each note is exactly where it should be.





HerbertNorman said:


> It's a masterpiece! I like it very much too... I've seen it being played live and that was a great experience. I do feel that shows you even more what a great piece of music it is.


I just learned about it last year. I happened to stumble upon this performance and had a whale of a time:


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## Neo Romanza

The _Sonata for Flute, Viola & Harp_ is one of my favorite pieces of music of all-time. It was one of the works that helped me unlock Debussy's sound-world. The other works that unlocked his music for me were many of his solo piano pieces along with the mélodies and, of course, _Pelléas et Mélisande_. The orchestral music I already knew and loved, but I'd say his greatest contribution to orchestral music is not _La Mer_, but _Jeux_. It was a work that was soon forgotten after its premiere by the Ballet Russes thanks in large part to the incredible success of Stravinsky's _Le sacre du printemps_, which was premiered a few months after Debussy's _Jeux_.


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## Dirge

I've been revisiting my longtime favorite works/recordings of Debussy …

*Suite bergamasque* (1890-1905) • *Préludes I* (1909-10)
:: Gieseking [Columbia '31 & '36]
Tempos are unlingering without any sense of hurry/haste, rhythmic playing is sophisticated without calling attention to itself, every movement/prélude is beautifully characterized without resorting to caricature, and dynamics are as finely graded/terraced as you'll hear owing to Gieseking's famous touch-the ultimate fulfillment of Debussy's "hammerless" prescription. If his playing isn't as bold and dynamic as some, it's more insidiously seductive than any.

*String Quartet* (1892-93)
:: Guarneri Quartet [RCA '73]
The Guarneri Quartet in peak form gives a strong, sinewy, somewhat Romantic performance highlighted by the intensely rapt and atmospheric account of the slow movement, The playing is a wee bit heavy and textures are a wee bit thick (exacerbated by the rather woolly and opaque recorded sound), but focus & concentration and shared conviction carry the day.

*Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune* (1891-94)
:: Stokowski/NBC SO [live broadcast '43] Cala
This performance is slow and sensuous/sensual/sultry in the usual Stokowski manner, but it's more focused & concentrated and has more molecular energy than his various other accounts, with an underlying tension stealthily holding everything together. All this allows it to conjure up a languorous impression without the playing itself being languorous.

*Trois Nocturnes* (1892-99)
:: Tilson Thomas/Philharmonia & Ambrosian Singers [CBS '82]
The playing here isn't as suave and refined as that found in the highly regarded Haitink/Concertgebouw recording [Philips '79], but there's a raw/nervous energy and underlying sense of anxiety (and danger in "Sirènes") that sets this performance apart. "Nuages" and "Sirènes" are taken at a somewhat slowish pace, but inner tension is more than adequate and more than adequately sustained to hold everything together. The CBS recording is conspicuously multi-mic'd and doesn't paint an especially lifelike and natural sonic picture, with some rather contrived dynamics and balances/perspectives, but I can't say that it bothers me all that much in this case.

*Trois Chansons de Charles d'Orléans* (1898 and 1908)
:: Ericson/Stockholmer Kammerchor [EMI '71]
These three brief (two minutes each) a cappella choral pieces are put across with an unfussy eloquence by Ericson and company, and phrasing is to the manner born despite the fact that the Swedes don't sound especially French; the second and third songs feature engaging solos/soloists too.

*Danses sacrée et profane* (1904)
:: Cotelle, Markevitch/Orchestre des Concerts Lamoureux [DG '59]
Markevitch/Lamoureux provides a vividly atmospheric soundscape through which the nimble-fingered Suzanne Cotelle trips the light fantastic … that is, when Markevitch/Lamoureux isn't tripping the light fantastic itself. As outstanding as Markevitch/Lamoureux's contribution is, however, Cotelle has the star power (and slight recording spotlight) to stand out and be the focus of attention-she plays brilliantly and with great charisma.

*La mer, trois esquisses symphoniques* (1903-05)
:: Désormière/CzPO [Supraphon '50]
Désormière leads a stylish and exceptionally well-conceived performance wherein orchestral contributions are so deftly weighted & balanced that fine lines and details are naturally discernible within the resulting sonic textures, without recourse to overt emphasis or analytical highlighting. He also manages to conjure up an impressionistic atmosphere without impressionistic haze-no mean feat. The playing isn't especially dynamic or powerful at any given moment, but the result has great cumulative impact owing to Désormière's dramatic savvy, his crafty control of tension and suspense, which he exploits to build unexpectedly potent climaxes. It's all very insidiously accomplished, with the dramatic narrative gradually drawing you in as it unerringly guides you along. This isn't a performance that immediately grabs you by the collar and compels you to listen, but no other performance rewards dedicated and intent listening as handsomely as this one. The recording is hurting for bottom-end extension and presence/"oomph" but is otherwise very good by 1950 standards.

*Images I & II* (1901-05 and 1907) • Children's Corner (1906-08)
:: Michelangeli [DG '71]
I'm not a card-carrying member of the Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli cult, but these rightly famous 1971 recorded performances of _Images_ and _Children's Corner_ can't be denied, as Michelangeli's characterization is here on par with his crystalline technical proficiency/perfection.

*Images pour orchestre* (1905-12)
:: Monteux/SFSO [RCA '51]
This recording sounds like the soundtrack to one of those old travelogue films of the 1930s, '40s, and '50s-the sights and sounds of England, Spain, and France in this case … I can almost hear José Iturbi narrating as I listen to "Ibéria." The playing of the SFSO is a bit rough-hewn, as is the sound of the RCA recording, but Monteux conjures up a colorful and animated performance of much verve and forward sweep that carries you along-a marked contrast with the poise and deliberateness of his more polished and Zen-like remake with the LSO [Philips '63], which is conspicuous in its concern for balance/equilibrium and secondary voices and colors. Despite the differences, phrasing somehow remains identifiably that of Monteux in both cases, and there's always a certain lilt present.

*Jeux* (1912-13)
:: De Sabata/Orchestra Stabile dell'Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia [HMV '47] Testament
The playing here is duly playful yet intently focused and concentrated, with unflagging inner tension holding everything together. In the process, De Sabata manages to relate the work's various episodes to one another more convincingly than other conductors, making the elusive work sound more organic and comprehendible than usual. The recorded sound is surprisingly vivid and hi-fi for 1947.

*Syrinx* (1913)
:: Caroli [SVaNa '00]
Mario Caroli produces a slightly dry (sec), slightly breathy silvery tone and plays in a more darting lark-like manner than usual; even Caroli's various later recordings, commercial and otherwise, are more conventionally sultry and sinuous. As for SVaNa's recorded sound, a more nuanced and lifelike presentation of the flute I've not heard on record.

*Études* (1915)
:: Rosen [Epic '62]
Charles Rosen's rigorous and sturdy yet still sensitive and poetic playing is well-articulated and relatively note-discrete, promoting formal clarity and warding off any hint of self indulgence. If he tends to overemphasize the primary voice at any given moment, that's part of what gives his playing its strong fundamental/structural character. Fittingly, his tone is unprettified without necessarily being unpretty.

*En blanc et noir* (1915)
:: A. & A. Kontarsky [DG '73]
The Kontarsky brothers' combination of precision, coordination, and like-mindedness is tough to beat here, as is their expressively balanced and thoughtfully direct middle-of-the-road interpretation. I might favor another duo here and there, but on the whole, I find that the work's many and varied styles and moods-especially the militaristic aspects of the second movement-emerge most eloquently via the Kontarskys' unaffected but not stoic delivery.

*Sonata for violin and piano* (1916-17)
:: Grumiaux & Castagnone [Philips '55]
Grumiaux's unflaggingly focused and intense yet always beautiful tone has a layered iridescence about it that's the aural equivalent of gazing into a grand old pearl, and his formal/classical nature is ideally suited to the neoclassical spirit that haunts the work. Castagnone is of like nature and proves to be a well-matched and engaging partner, being supportive or challenging, as appropriate. No other performance comes nearer, I think, to capturing the Old World elegance laced with nostalgia that permeates this elusive work of "a sick man in time of war," especially the first movement.


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## golfer72

Interesting thread. My favorite genre in Classical is solo piano. Debussy is in my top 5 along with Brahms, Beethoven, Schubert and Rachmaninov. Just finishing up the cycle of Schubert sonatas. Have to get more Debussy listens in


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