# Common myths, slogans, anecdotes, rumours and statements



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Here we could list common myths, slogans, anecdotes, rumours and statements on classical music, composers, performers and the audience -- stuff that has been repeated all over again.

We may or may not agree on the "myths" listed. Further discussion is encouraged.

I shall begin:

1. Brahms was a bad orchestrator
2. Mahler has a lot of kitsch material in his symphonies
3. Tchaikovsky had serious problems with the symphonic form or the sonata form
4. Beethoven was not as good a melodist as Mozart
5. Sibelius piano music is awful and embarrassing
6. Female composers are lyrical and/or ethereal
7. No great composer has ever been an atheist


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Waehnen said:


> Here we could list common myths, slogans, anecdotes, rumours and statements on classical music, composers, performers and the audience -- stuff that has been repeated all over again.
> 
> We may or may not agree on the "myths" listed. Further discussion is encouraged.
> 
> ...


Well in my not so humble opinion, Tchaikovsky is a contender for the title of greatest symphonist of all time, the other main contender being Beethoven, so that myth is laughable in my opinion.

The last one ( No. 7) is also verifiably false.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

I think not many people will agree with #1. Brahms' orchestration wasn't very colorful, but it didn't need to be, because his music spotlights other, more profound qualities than just opulent colors and textures. A sober, effective orchestration served his musical ideas best.

But on the subject of bad orchestrators... I won't mention Schumann, but how about Liszt? He needed Raff to help him orchestrate some of his earlier (pre-1854) stuff and there's even some debate on whether Raff orchestrated pieces like the first piano concerto all alone, or not.
And the orchestral music he orchestrated all by himself, after his collaboration with Raff ended - it maybe great music, but is it really well orchestrated?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Charles Rosen says in page 283 of his book "The Romantic Generation":
"This idiosyncratic but powerful approach to contrapuntal detail can help us understand Chopin's mastery of large forms. He is one of the rare composers who knew how to sustain not only a melody and a bass but the inner parts as well. Perhaps this interest in the inner parts accounts for Chopin's idolization of Mozart's music, where the inner part writing is richer than in any of Mozart's contemporaries."

Myth: "Mozart's inner part writing is richer than any of his contemporaries'"









"Chopin was a composer of (people don't realize this) great contrapuntal complexity and intricacy."
-Anthony Tommasini (www.youtube.com/watch?v=BixPLIWcb0s&t=3m)

I think Rosen and Tommasini have good points regarding Chopin's counterpoint, however. So might as well also add- Myth: "Chopin was inept at counterpoint"


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

On the female composer point, I will say that the situation has gotten a lot better than what it once was (from what I've heard anyway), but I have nevertheless run into some rather strange opinions about this point. Going off of what you said re. ethereal or lyrical, I do feel like I've run into this expectation a fair amount, or at least people expecting the music to be "pretty" in some way, whatever that means. There's a sense of expectation for the surface to be pleasing, with not much substance underneath that – disclaimer: I don't agree with this sentiment, just to clarify that.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

Schumann's symphonies are poorly orchestrated;
 Bruckner was "half genius, half simpleton";
 Mozart was not an innovator the way Haydn or Beethoven were. He "merely" poured perfect music into well-established forms;
 Ravel's music is cold and emotionally distant;
 Nothing happened in English music between Purcell and Elgar;
 Gershwin tried to study with Ravel/Stravinsky/Boulanger, but was turned away because "I'd make you worse"/"I should study with you"/"I have nothing to teach you";
 Classical music is elitist;
 "When I look in the audience, all I see is grey hair."
Also, spend 10 minutes reading classical music reviews and you are guaranteed to read the words "revelatory," "probing," "autumnal," "searching," "burnished," and "magisterial" more times than you ever had before.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

John Zito said:


> Nothing happened in English music between Purcell and Elgar;


I would have been better if really nothing had happened.  
There is that quip from some time in the mid-20th century or so, that since Purcell Britain has waited for another great composer, but has waited in vain...


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Kreisler jr said:


> I would have been better if really nothing had happened.
> There is that quip from some time in the mid-20th century or so, that since Purcell Britain has waited for another great composer, but has waited in vain...


Britten......................


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I am not sure who said it and when. I am sure that it is explicitly against the status of some or other mid-century Brit as great, but it might predate Britten and be from the 1920s or so. (Because it would be a bit lame before Elgar.)


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Waehnen said:


> Here we could list common myths, slogans, anecdotes, rumours and statements on classical music, composers, performers and the audience -- stuff that has been repeated all over again.
> 
> We may or may not agree on the "myths" listed. Further discussion is encouraged.
> 
> ...


I've never heard or read any of these, and if I did I would consider the speaker an a$$hole.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> I've never heard or read any of these, and if I did I would consider the speaker an a$$hole.


Your comment made me laugh because it is spot on! You are right. Thinking all those sentences coming from one person - I would not wanna be friends with him/her.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

In the comment section, a youtuber named "Raja Orr SFCM" wrote an interesting description of Tchaikovsky's Romeo and juliet overture:

"INTRO (Completely rewritten by Tchaikovsky in 1872)
A1 Friar Laurence theme + chorale: 0:00
A2: 2:06
A3: 4:15
Transition 1: 5:24

EXPOSITION
Primary theme - Capulet & Montague fight theme: 5:36
Transition 2: 5:53
Canon in D minor: 6:00
Canon in G minor: 6:06
Transition 2: 6:14
Dominant preparation for b minor: 6:28
Primary theme restated: 6:40
Transition 2 expanded: 7:02
Secondary theme - Love theme: 7:45 (Lightly orchestrated)
Transition 3 - 8:04
Secondary theme restated: 8:55
Transition 4: 9:59

DEVELOPMENT (Completely rewritten in 1872)
Primary theme + Friar Laurence theme developed: 11:05
Dominant preparation for b minor: 13:07

RECAPITULATION (Mostly rewritten 1872 then revised 1880)
Primary theme restated: 13:20
Transition 5: 13:42
Secondary theme: 14:24 (Full orchestration)
Secondary theme restated: 15:54
Primary theme derived interruption: 16:03
Primary theme: 16:12
Love theme lament: 17:27
Friar Laurence chorale: 18:12 
Secondary theme derived coda: 19:13
Ending: 19:44"


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

John Zito said:


> Schumann's symphonies are poorly orchestrated;
> Bruckner was "half genius, half simpleton";
> Mozart was not an innovator the way Haydn or Beethoven were. He "merely" poured perfect music into well-established forms;
> Ravel's music is cold and emotionally distant;
> ...


I love your myths. They made me laugh. Especially the 3rd one which is so irritating! Reading these is so much fun. Do I have a strange sense of humor? Hmm…


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Some myths will never be resolved. Like did Tchaikovsky die accidentally, or was it suicide? Was the Mozart Miserere myth really true?


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

progmatist said:


> Some myths will never be resolved. Like did Tchaikovsky die accidentally, or was it suicide? Was the Mozart Miserere myth really true?


On this subject, there's the subject of Mozart's death, which never was really entirely clear...

I heard a funny anecdote about Brahms: apparently a singer asked him to recommend some of his songs to her, and he suggested his posthumous works. She asked "and which ones?" to which he replied "Ask Kalbeck, he knows everything." Then she went to Kalbeck, and he basically collapsed laughing. She then went back to Brahms, annoyed, and he replied "Dear lady, don't ask me such things. I'll usually just make some sort of a joke-and if a good one doesn't occur to me, then a bad one."


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Alkan was killed by a falling bookcase.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

*1. Brahms was a bad orchestrator* False. The four symphonies are all the proof that's needed. *
2. Mahler has a lot of kitsch material in his symphonies* So what? Define kitsch. *
3. Tchaikovsky had serious problems with the symphonic form or the sonata form* What's serious? Maybe the traditional sonata-allegro form didn't suit his needs. Not a problem for me.
*4. Beethoven was not as good a melodist as Mozart* Probably true. But that wasn't Beethoven's reason for writing, was it*?
5. Sibelius piano music is awful and embarrassing* Who says? I wish I could write such "awful and embarassing" music. Anyway, his instrument was the violin, not the piano. His piano works may not be important, but they're not horrible.*
6. Female composers are lyrical and/or ethereal* Be sure to let Amy Beach, Ethyl Smith, Zwilich and Tower know. 
*7. No great composer has ever been an atheist* Shostakovich - there's a counterexample. The statement is false. I'd add Vaughan Williams but was he an agnostic or real atheist


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

The "Minute Waltz" takes, on average, two minutes to play as originally written. Misconception !

Its name comes from the adjective minute, meaning 'small', and not the noun spelled the same.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> *1. Brahms was a bad orchestrator* False. The four symphonies are all the proof that's needed. *
> 2. Mahler has a lot of kitsch material in his symphonies* So what? Define kitsch. *
> 3. Tchaikovsky had serious problems with the symphonic form or the sonata form* What's serious? Maybe the traditional sonata-allegro form didn't suit his needs. Not a problem for me.
> *4. Beethoven was not as good a melodist as Mozart* Probably true. But that wasn't Beethoven's reason for writing, was it*?
> ...


Thank you! There is still hope in the world. This is encouraging and reassuring.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

1. Mozart never struggled with his music the way Beethoven did. 
2. The classical era lacks the "passion" of the romantic (and maybe the baroque) eras. 
3. People left classical music because classical music left the people. 
4. Postmodern music is all atonal noise. 
5. Tosca is a "shabby little shocker."


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> 7. No great composer has ever been an atheist


also Brahms, Bartok


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Bwv 1080 said:


> also Brahms, Bartok


That anecdote was by Brahms himself - and has been repeated ever since?


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> That anecdote was by Brahms himself - and has been repeated ever since?


That man knew how to troll. :lol:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

The most persistent rumor not seen yet. 


Mozart did not die from poisoning, and was not poisoned by his colleague Antonio Salieri or anyone else.
The false rumor originated soon after Salieri's death, and was dramatized in Alexander Pushkin's play Mozart and Salieri.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Rogerx said:


> The most persistent rumor not seen yet.
> 
> Mozart did not die from poisoning, and was not poisoned by his colleague Antonio Salieri or anyone else.
> The false rumor originated soon after Salieri's death, and was dramatized in Alexander Pushkin's play Mozart and Salieri.


And what a ridiculous rumour it was. I feel sorry for Salieri. His reputation has been ruined because of this kind of unnecessary and dramatic vanity.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> And what a ridiculous rumour it was. I feel sorry for Salieri. His reputation has been ruined because of this kind of unnecessary and dramatic vanity.


Agreed - from what I've heard, Mozart and Salieri got along quite well and respected each other. If I remember correctly, Salieri even taught Mozart's son and they worked on a piece together at one point.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

The poisoning is a myth; there was a somewhat related idea that one contributing cause to Mozart's death was mercury poisoning (as Syphilis treatment) but this seems to have been debunked as well.
Mozart and Salieri respected each other but they were obviously also competitors. There is some Mozart letter where he seems to blame court intrigue by Salieri for not getting some job himself and there was the famous "competition" between German and Italian opera, namely Mozart's Schauspieldirektor vs. Salieri's Prima la musica e poi le parole.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

composingmusic said:


> Agreed - from what I've heard, Mozart and Salieri got along quite well and respected each other. If I remember correctly, Salieri even taught Mozart's son and they worked on a piece together at one point.


"However, there is also evidence attesting to Mozart and Salieri sometimes appearing to support each other's work. For example, when Salieri was appointed Kapellmeister in 1788, he chose to revive Figaro instead of introducing a new opera of his own, and when he attended the coronation festivities for Leopold II in 1790, Salieri had no fewer than three Mozart masses in his luggage. Salieri and Mozart even jointly composed a cantata for voice and piano, Per la ricuperata salute di Ofelia, which celebrated the return to the stage of the singer Nancy Storace. This work, although it had been printed by Artaria in 1785, was considered lost until 10 January 2016, when the Schwäbische Zeitung reported on the discovery by musicologist and composer Timo Jouko Herrmann of a copy of its text and music while doing research on Antonio Salieri in the collections of the Czech Museum of Music. Mozart's Davide penitente (1785), his Piano Concerto KV 482 (1785), the Clarinet Quintet (1789) and the 40th Symphony (1788) had been premiered on the suggestion of Salieri, who supposedly conducted a performance of it in 1791. In his last surviving letter from 14 October 1791, Mozart told his wife that he had picked up Salieri and Caterina Cavalieri in his carriage and driven them both to the opera; about Salieri's attendance at his opera The Magic Flute, speaking enthusiastically: "He heard and saw with all his attention, and from the overture to the last choir there was not a piece that didn't elicit a 'Bravo!' or 'Bello!' out of him [...]."" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Salieri#Relationship_with_Mozart

"I make so bold as to beg your Royal Highness very respectfully to use your most gracious influence with His Majesty the King with regard to my most humble petition to His Majesty. Prompted by a desire for fame, by a love of work and by a conviction of my wide knowledge, I venture to apply for the post of second Kapellmeister, particularly as *Salieri, that very gifted Kapellmeister*, has never devoted himself to church music, whereas from my youth up I have made myself completely familiar with this style." -Mozart, to Archduke Francis, 1790 https://archive.org/stream/lettersofmozarth000640mbp/lettersofmozarth000640mbp_djvu.txt


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> And what a ridiculous rumour it was. I feel sorry for Salieri. His reputation has been ruined because of this kind of unnecessary and dramatic vanity.


I don't think any serious classical music listener genuinely dislikes Salieri because of that. I'd say his reputation has been ruined more by people using him as an example when discussing what they regard as 'trashy 3rd rate composers in classical music'.

"Les Danaïdes followed in the tradition of reform that Gluck had begun in the 1760s and that Salieri had emulated in his earlier opera Armida. Salieri's first French opera contained scenes of great solemnity and festivity, but overshadowing it all was darkness and revenge. The opera depicted politically motivated murder, filial duty and love in conflict, tyrannicide, and finally eternal damnation. The opera, with its dark overture, lavish choral writing, many ballet scenes, and electrifying finale depicting a glimpse of hellish torture, kept the opera on the stage in Paris for over forty years. A young Hector Berlioz recorded the deep impression this work made on him in his Mémoires."







Eva Yojimbo said:


> 1. Mozart never struggled with his music the way Beethoven did.


If, by "they struggled", we mean 'how many corrections/revisions they made', and 'how fast they composed', - none of Mozart's professional contemporaries "struggled" more than he did. I like to think Beethoven belonged more in the world of 19th century composers who were more artists than craftsmen (in mindset). We need to think in terms of proper historical context.
Also, there are people who feel that 'rhetorics like "divine perfection" aren't very meaningful in serious discussions', and I have to agree. The musical idiom emphasized concision and fluidity, but Mozart wasn't the only "artisan" who achieved craftsmanship in that.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJCz0qJDzus&t=8m
"This was actually a passage that was meant to be inserted earlier in the piece and then decided he didn't want that insertion after all. So it represents three if not more attempts to kind of go through the piece and decide what works and what doesn't."


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

progmatist said:


> Was the Mozart Miserere myth really true?









composingmusic said:


> On this subject, there's the subject of Mozart's death, which never was really entirely clear...


"Mozart however died of chronic kidney disease and ultimately of uraemia. If kidney damage reaches a critical point, even a minimum additional stress can lead to its failure. This usually occurs in the fourth decade of life." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/238...r died of chronic,th e fourth decade of life.

According to Guillery, the "taste of death" on Mozart's tongue may have been the metallic taste associated with the buildup of uremic toxins in the body. https://ukrocharity.org/2012/08/diary-of-a-kidney-lover-did-mozart-die-of-kidney-disease/


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> If, by "they struggled", we mean 'how many corrections/revisions they made', and 'how much time they took in composing', - none of Mozart's professional contemporaries "struggled" more than he did.


Do you have a source or a Mozart quote for that?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> Do you have a source or a Mozart quote for that?


"They are, it is true, the fruit of a long and laborious endeavor, yet the hope inspired in me by several Friends that it may be at least partly compensated encourages me, and I flatter myself that this offspring will serve to afford me solace one day." -Mozart (in his dedication letter to Haydn)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJCz0qJDzus&t=8m
"This was actually a passage that was meant to be inserted earlier in the piece and then decided he didn't want that insertion after all. So it represents three if not more attempts to kind of go through the piece and decide what works and what doesn't."

the 38th symphony - look at the crossed-out section on the autograph score www.youtube.com/watch?v=pncJC4Tm0J8&t=27m18s

"[...] Among these musicians none seems to have been more industrious than Johann Ernst Eberlin (1702-62). There is evidence in the number of works preserved: a thematic catalog contains, so far, approximately 70 Masses, Mass fragments and Requiems, 160 motets and other smaller works, 37 litanies, 14 sequences and hymns, 35 settings of individual or grouped vesper psalms, and 3 Te Deum. [...] Aside from such first-hand evidence there is the well-known testimony of Eberlin's younger colleague, Leopold Mozart. In his report on the Salzburg musical establishment in 1757, the older Mozart singled out Eberlin for his industry and speed in composing, comparing him to Alessandro Scarlatti and Telemann. [...] Both Leopold and his son thought highly of Eberlin's ability; from their testimony and from other evidence it appears that Eberlin's reputation was primarily based on his contrapuntal works."
-Reinhard G. Pauly (Johann Ernst Eberlin's Motets for Lent, Journal of the American Musicological Society (1962) 15 (2): 182-192)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzmj8lRLHh0&t=6m26s
"In just two weeks Michael Haydn composed his work in December 1771, on the occasion of the death of his employer, Prince Bishop Sigismund Count Schrattenbach, who was beloved among the people and was a great patron of the arts. The work was written under the impression of personal tragedy: Haydn's only child, Aloisia Josepha, died in January 1771."
Here's the autograph score: https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/...po_Sigismondo_-BSB_Mus._Ms._4180-.pdf#page=13 (do we find any sign of "struggle"?)

"When he arrived at the projected A on beat 3 of the basses - it remains un-notated in the original bar - he will have realized that a presumably undesired 6-4 had been created. Also, as originally conceived, bar 30 does not provide an opportunity for a further 'Christe' entry, and would have brought to an end Mozart's alternate 'Kyrie' and 'Christe' entries at one bar intervals (bars 27, 28, 29). So, in changing the D minor 6-4 to F major 6-3, Mozart adapted the alto part, shortened the tenor 'Christe' entry that began in bar 28 by adding rests and introduced a further tenor 'Christe' entry on the third beat."
-Simon P. Keefe, Mozart's Requiem: Reception, Work, Completion, p.128-129.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Waehnen said:


> Here we could list common myths, slogans, anecdotes, rumours and statements on classical music, composers, performers and the audience -- stuff that has been repeated all over again.
> 
> We may or may not agree on the "myths" listed. Further discussion is encouraged.
> 
> ...


Number 7 is the reason why we have no greats anymore. Number 4 is obviously true.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

#5 presupposes that Sibelius' piano music is known at all; I'd say that it's usually so far under the radar that hardly anyone bothers whether it is pleasant or awful.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> Number 7 is the reason why we have no greats anymore. Number 4 is obviously true.


Wilhelm, with all possible respect and in relation to no7 - nonsense.


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> "They are, it is true, the fruit of a long and laborious endeavor, yet the hope inspired in me by several Friends that it may be at least partly compensated encourages me, and I flatter myself that this offspring will serve to afford me solace one day." -Mozart (in his dedication letter to Haydn)


Thank you, that's enough for me.


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

1. Berlioz couldn't play any instruments
2. Brahms hated Wagner
3. Saint-Saens literally didn't understand Debussy's music
4. Schönberg killed tonality
5. Stravinsky freed rhythm
6. jazz is completely separate from classical
7. Hollywood composers contributed nothing of note or lasting value

and the most tragic one, that great artists write from a position of ignorance, and learning would spoil them


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> Berlioz couldn't play any instruments


He played the guitar, right?


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

John Zito said:


> He played the guitar, right?


and some woodwinds


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> 5. Stravinsky freed rhythm


This! Oh my goodness, yes! What a slogan! Thank you! This thread is so much fun.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Here's another one: Late Schumann was the product of a deranged, syphilis-ravaged mind.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> 1. Berlioz couldn't play any instruments


Leo Fender, maker of the famous Fender guitars didn't actually play guitar.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

progmatist said:


> Leo Fender, maker of the famous Fender guitars didn't actually play guitar.


But Stratocaster did?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

progmatist said:


> Some myths will never be resolved. Like did Tchaikovsky die accidentally, or was it suicide? Was the Mozart Miserere myth really true?


Both of those have been resolved. Tchaikovsky didn't commit suicide. It was a rumor started two years after the death by someone who had at best heard third hand accounts but more likely just made the whole thing up.

Mozart did not transcribe the Miserere in one hearing. There were two hearings and a couple of days at the keyboard on the way to producing his transcription. Moreover, there were already pirated versions of the Miserere circulating at the time of the transcription and we have no idea if Mozart had had any exposure to those.


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

EdwardBast said:


> Both of those have been resolved. Tchaikovsky didn't commit suicide. It was a rumor started two years after the death by someone who had at best heard third hand accounts but more likely just made the whole thing up


Now seems like a better time than ever before for people to finally understand that Tchaikovsky simply didn't observe the safety rules during a pandemic, and got himself killed. For didactic purposes it might be added that he put himself in a high risk group because of his smoking, alcohol consumption, and lack of exercise.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> Now seems like a better time than ever before for people to finally understand that Tchaikovsky simply didn't observe the safety rules during a pandemic, and got himself killed. For didactic purposes it might be added that he put himself in a high risk group because of his smoking, alcohol consumption, and lack of exercise.


Yes. Cholera. And the idea that he was forced to off himself because of his homosexuality is silly. It was an open secret.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Popular music

"Edelweiss" is not the national anthem of Austria, but an original composition created for the musical The Sound of Music.

:lol:


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

Waehnen said:


> 7. No great composer has ever been an atheist


Ah here we find the root of all evil and the plague of the modern world...secularism, materialism, marxist delusion...critical this and that "ism"...all the great composers had ideals beyond this earth, beyond mere flesh and blood, and that is what inspires men to achieve the "impossible". Even an apparently "abstract" symphony betokens of a deep religious sentiment, some yearning for greater good, peace, dissolution. With atheism, we have degenerate artforms like 12-tone, and other noise that desecrates the glory of man, soils the sanctuary of greatness.
Like Julius Evola, we must expose the root of all our problems, and revolt against the modern world


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> 5. Tosca is a "shabby little shocker."


That was from Joseph Kerman in "Opera as Drama."


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

The "Minute Waltz" takes, on average, two minutes to play as originally written.
Its name comes from the adjective minute, meaning "small", and not the noun spelled the same.
Source the internet.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Roger Knox said:


> That was from Joseph Kerman in "Opera as Drama."


I'm aware since I've read it.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

A few of my favorite classical music "myths". At least I think they're myths.

1. Bach was lousy at writing fugues.
2. Beethoven was the baldest of composers. Sibelius the hairiest. But neither found this attribute prevented him from writing a cello concerto.
3. Tchaikovsky committed suicide _before_ he wrote his Sixth Symphony. What happened to him afterwards was that he died from Typhus.
4. Mozart didn't die young. Rather, he killed Antonio Salieri and assumed his identity so he could spend his later years writing less than great music since he had already written all the great music by the time he reached age 35.
5. Johannes Mahler changed his name to Brahms because he wanted to be one of the "three B's". Gustav Brahms changed his name to Mahler because he wanted to write more than four symphonies.
6. Female composers' music lacks testosterone.

Legend has it there are other such myths, but I put little stock in such notions. They're likely just myths.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

That 12 tone music is somehow degenerate is a myth. It seeks to do what a lot of art does by attempting to impose self, humanity and order over chaos. Schoenberg saw it as a continuation of tradition not some sort of musical fifth column. It's a technique, a means to a musical end.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> That 12 tone music is somehow degenerate is a myth. It seeks to do what a lot of art does by attempting to impose self, humanity and order over chaos. Schoenberg saw it as a continuation of tradition not some sort of musical fifth column. It's a technique, a means to a musical end.


Sure. But even moderately sophisticated theories of historical development would only rarely claim that "decadence" or "degeneracy" are introduced by "moles" or conspiracies into a "healthy culture". 
They would say that these are just late stages of eras/developments; they are unavoidable and there is of course no personal blame. They would probably not even deny that the late overly refined hothouse flowers of decadence could be especially beautiful.
(I am not saying that this makes sense applied to 2nd Viennese school, just that this is roughly what a Spenglerian might claim about a lot of ca. 1890- 1920s art.)


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Oops, mistake.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

John Zito said:


> Schumann's symphonies are poorly orchestrated;
> Bruckner was "half genius, half simpleton";
> Mozart was not an innovator the way Haydn or Beethoven were. He "merely" poured perfect music into well-established forms;
> Ravel's music is cold and emotionally distant;
> ...


On the eighth one, not with me in the audience. They're more likely to get dazzled from the reflection of the lights off my head. 

On the final point, just lol. "Burnished" is a particular favourite. In their defence its not easy writing non-cliched reviews.🙄


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

——-too much technical babble from me——-gotta use some serious delete——-


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Kreisler jr said:


> Sure. But even moderately sophisticated theories of historical development would only rarely claim that "decadence" or "degeneracy" are introduced by "moles" or conspiracies into a "healthy culture".
> They would say that these are just late stages of eras/developments; they are unavoidable and there is of course no personal blame. They would probably not even deny that the late overly refined hothouse flowers of decadence could be especially beautiful.
> (I am not saying that this makes sense applied to 2nd Viennese school, just that this is roughly what a Spenglerian might claim about a lot of ca. 1890- 1920s art.)


yeah thnx K, I was just kicking back in response to a diatribe posted above because someone has to.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

John Zito said:


> Mozart was not an innovator the way Haydn or Beethoven were.


There's no objective basis to assert that *Franz Ignaz von Beecke (1733-1803)* was not an innovator either, btw.
*piano quintet in A minor (1770):*




youtube.com/watch?v=7kV2eR4GrRw&t=4m40s
youtube.com/watch?v=xzFEibi9Nes
*string quartet in C (c. 1780):*




youtube.com/watch?v=csk_Nni1Szo
youtube.com/watch?v=Ta_3jxHda0s


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

SONNET CLV said:


> A few of my favorite classical music "myths". At least I think they're myths.
> 
> 1. Bach was lousy at writing fugues.
> 2. Beethoven was the baldest of composers. Sibelius the hairiest. But neither found this attribute prevented him from writing a cello concerto.
> ...


Hilarious! But let's take care that Nos. 1-5 do not become generally known. I shudder to think some enterprising purveyor of conspiracy theories will peddle these myths. _(satire warning):_ For No. 6, research is needed. The software program and testing kit _*TestosterTone™*_ will analyze examples of classical music by different composers for testosterone level. The evaluators will be blinded as to whether the composer of each example is male or female. If the mean testosterone level of the male composers' music is higher that that of the females, it would prove once and for all that "Myth No. 6" is in fact true. _(satire warning off)_


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

progmatist said:


> Some myths will never be resolved. Like did Tchaikovsky die accidentally, or was it suicide? Was the Mozart Miserere myth really true?


Tchaikovsky very likely died of Cholera, not of suicide. Suicide is a lot more sensational so that's what many people like to repeat.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Tchaikovsky very likely died of Cholera, not of suicide. Suicide is a lot more sensational so that's what many people like to repeat.


The usual reply to that would be "but what about that open coffin??"


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

RobertJTh said:


> The usual reply to that would be "but what about that open coffin??"


What about the open coffin?


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> What about the open coffin?


Off the top of my head, Tchaikovsky's body was displayed in an open coffin, and some of his friends kissed him on the forehead.
One would never do that with the body of a cholera victim, for obvious reasons.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

RobertJTh said:


> Off the top of my head, Tchaikovsky's body was displayed in an open coffin, and some of his friends kissed him on the forehead.
> One would never do that with the body of a cholera victim, for obvious reasons.


Kissing a dead person who died of cholera will not infect the kisser. The cholera bacteria is passed through feces and it is spread by eating or drinking food or water contaminated by the feces of an infected person. Of course, people back in Tchaikovsky's time probably did not know how exactly cholera is spread but likely the observation that people who died from cholera do not spread the illness was known. 
Also, people kissing Tchaikovsky's dead forehead is not an established fact.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Kissing a dead person who died of cholera will not infect the kisser. The cholera bacteria is passed through feces and it is spread by eating or drinking food or water contaminated by the feces of an infected person. Of course, people back in Tchaikovsky's time probably did not know how exactly cholera is spread but likely the observation that people who died from cholera do not spread the illness was known.
> Also, people kissing Tchaikovsky's dead forehead is not an established fact.


Yeah, you're probably right. I see there's a huge Wikipedia article devoted to the mystery and all the theories and controversies discussed into detail - with the tl;dr version being that we'll probably never know what happened exactly...


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

RobertJTh said:


> Yeah, you're probably right. I see there's a huge Wikipedia article devoted to the mystery and all the theories and controversies discussed into detail - with the tl;dr version being that we'll probably never know what happened exactly...


We don't know for sure but the more likely scenario is he didn't commit suicide. Still, I'm pretty sure this rumour will stick around.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

MYTH: "composers in the 1750s didn't write works in Classical forms for 2 violins, viola, cello, contrapuntally with equality of voices"








Op.5 No.1 (1757)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

MYTH: counterpoint went obsolete in the middle of the 18th century.

It never did. (They kept doing it as long as there was demand for it). Even in the most raw form of counterpoint, Classical characteristics (such as clearly-cut phrases in question-answer tonic-dominant structure and gradations of dynamics, etc) were prevalent. For instance, look at the fugues of Haydn Op.20 or




MH276 (1778)


> "Franz Joseph Aumann (1728-1797). Aumann's music was a large part of the repertoire at St. Florian in the 19th century, and Anton Bruckner availed himself of this resource for his studies of counterpoint. Bruckner focused a lot of his attention on Aumann's Christmas responsories and an Ave Maria in D major. Bruckner, who liked Aumann's coloured harmony, added in 1879 an accompaniment by three trombones to his settings of Ecce quomodo moritur justus and Tenebrae factae sunt. Aumann's oeuvre also includes instrumental music, such as some of the earliest string quintets."
> 
> "Georg von Pasterwitz (1730-1803). Pasterwitz's surviving oeuvre comprises some 500 works, mostly liturgical pieces and dramatic works for the church. He composed a large number of short contrapuntal pieces for keyboard: 324 were published between 1790 and 1803, and were the only works published during the composer's lifetime. They show him as a competent master of both counterpoint and the keyboard. For the monastery, Pasterwitz regularly composed dramas and dozens of liturgical pieces: masses, offertories, vespers, etc."
> 
> ...






MH118 (1769)



MYTH: Bach's music was more outdated in its time than Handel's.

Look at the "mood changes" in




BWV234, for instance,
or the "harmonic spaces" in




BWV54
Even the British in the later half of the 18th century perfomed Handel only in Concerts of *Antient* Music. Dramatic music had existed more than a century; it was not fundamentally forward-looking than other types of music. There were anecdotes of people calling Bach's music melodically ugly and dissonant; but this was more because of the strong "Germanic style" he was employing, rather than the fugal writing, similar to how critics of Mozart would criticize his music decades later.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

^Also look at these contrapuntal works by the Bach sons (they would have written more if they were paid to)-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgR9rGrqZkk&t=34m8s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwZ01_Z3xwM&t=32m30s


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