# I don't really understand 'world' music..



## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

I want to become more interested in Arabic music, but I don't really understand how to start.. 

For example: I don't really know if there are any composers or pieces which someone new to the genre should begin with or whether it's largely improvised - and if so, if there are any forms or progressions which define the improvisation? 

Any help would be much appreciated. I understand Herzeliede knows a little about music from other cultures..


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Is there a Beethoven's 5th of the Arabic world? Or do any non-western cultures even score music?


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

There's western classical music from all kinds of countries, including arabic.

Then there is their own 'classical' music which some places seem to have (Japan, Korea, Thai, Indian, arabic...maybe some others I haven't of).

Then you have popular music which is everywhere, and very impressive from some places...partly influenced from the west at times but also with there own sound and tradition which they have built up. At this time I haven't got around to working out the distinction between the popular and the native classical style of arabic music (at least when looking at older arabic music). Maybe it's about the length of a piece, some arabic vocal pieces can be quite extended (maybe that is the classical vocal genre?).

Then you have folk music, this is what most people seem to think of as 'world music'. This is the part that interests me the least as I tend to find it a bit simple and maybe repetitive at times.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm not interested in western music written be eastern composers.. I think that's a bit wishy-washy and pointless. Almost as if they're accepting some kind of false inferiority in their own culture.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Oh ok, so you're interested in their own native classical music then? I'm not sure there would be an equivalent to a Beethoven symphony then as they wrote in some other kinds of genres or styles and for other instruments. I guess you mean some kind of work considered groundbreaking in their classical form.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Well, what I really meant was something essential that one must hear. Just as Beethoven's 5th is a must for anyone interested in western classical.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

I'm not an expert of Hindustani music, but I've heard some ragas, and that's a very impressive music. I have here two CD's one of a certain Ali Khan, with some pretty good stuff, and the other one by ravi shankar, the famous one who met with Menuhin and the Beatles. The latter has also some westernized pieces, and all of them are crap, he surely doesn't know orchestration, harmony and counterpoint, the result is like music from a 40's B movie, but the indian music is something amazingly good, exciting and enjoyable. About other world music, I don't have a clue about it, but I have to say I like and respect Hindustani Classical Music.

Take a look at Shankar:


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## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

Bach said:


> Is there a Beethoven's 5th of the Arabic world? Or do any non-western cultures even score music?


Well, the whole concept of the 'great composers' and 'masterpieces' is a Romantic and modern concept. There wasn't any such thing before the nineteenth century. In the medieval period, music was not identified by who composed it, and music was more integrated into social or liturgical situations - and this continued for hundreds of years after. This still holds true of a lot of classical music around the world, like India or the Middle East.* In India, for example, they have ragas for different parts of the day. That's precisely what it was like in the days of plainchant, with specific chants for specific parts of the monks' quotidian liturgical existence, as well as for specific days of the Gregorian year. There were perhaps chants that were favoured (there must have been) but it was still a long way off the concept of music we have now in the West.

There are non-Western cultures which have notation, but I believe in general it's basically used as an _aide-mémoire_.

BTW, Boulez has an affinity for this ancient and/or non-Western conception of music. And I think it's enormously helpful when trying to get to grips with such great pieces as_ Le marteau_ or _Rituel_ to know Javan and/or Balinese music (specifically Gamelan) as well as Japanese music, specifically the Gagaku. Messiaen was also, needless to say, very much influenced by Oriental music, in his approach to rhythm, form, percussion writing etc. Just listen to _Sept Haikai_ - just listen to Messiaen's amazing evocation of the Gagaku orchestra in the fourth movement!

If you're interested in Arabic music, you may be interested in Klaus Huber's music. He's studied Arabic music theory, and has composed some pieces on the basis of the maqam, like _Die Erde bewegt sich auf den Hörnern eines Ochsen_ for European and Arabic musicians, or _Lamentationes de fine vicesimi saeculi_.

*Unfortunately Indian music is showing signs of being Westernised, and traditional Arabic music is having to fight against popular music both from the West and the Middle East.



Bach said:


> I'm not interested in western music written be eastern composers.. I think that's a bit wishy-washy and pointless. Almost as if they're accepting some kind of false inferiority in their own culture.


Takemitsu's music is often excellent. He was initially suspicious of his own culture's classical music because of its nationalist connotations (in the same way Stockhausen was suspicious of Beethoven). Though later in life reconciled with it, and wrote music for traditional Japanese instruments.

Regarding Hindustani music, Bach, you may like this:






Ustad Rashid Khan is an excellent vocalist, and the Basant raga is quite appealing to Western (or at least my) ears, because for us it sounds like an artificial scale, really quite chromatic.


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## Cyclops (Mar 24, 2008)

I have a disk called Eternal Egypt by Phil Thornton and Hassam Romzy. Its kind of a fusion of traditional music and western rhythms. It employs traditional instruments such as Tibetan Singing Bowls,a Chicken Flute,a Didgeridoo,Tabla,Doholla,finger cymbals,Egyptian Quarter-tone accordian etc as well as electric guitar,E-bow guitar,Vocoder,Fretless Bass,Drum loops etc.
Sounds all very new ageish but is actually quite good! It uses traditional egyptian Zaar,Masmoudi and Fallahi rhythms combined with a modern touch.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks, Herz.. your input is much appreciated! I'll study your posts and seek out your recommendations!


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

I loved that Ustad Rashid Khan recording - can you recommend any commercially recorded albums of his?


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

starry said:


> Then there is their own 'classical' music which some places seem to have (Japan, Korea, Thai, Indian, arabic...maybe some others I haven't of).


I was impressed by some Chinese classical music.

World music seems to me to be pop dressed up in folk clothing.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Not really, son.. explain yourself..


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Bach said:


> Not really, son.. explain yourself..


Dad?

I forgive you for all those years of sniffing paint while I was at home with Mom in the trailer.

How's that for an explanation?


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Har har..?


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Bach said:


> Har har..?


Indeed. Sodomy, with a touch of Gouda?


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> I was impressed by some Chinese classical music.
> 
> World music seems to me to be pop dressed up in folk clothing.


The Chinese classical music that someone showed me once just sounded like folk music, so maybe that wasn't real the classical style?

What most people describe as world music seems to be just simple folk music. This annoys me because alot of places have a very well developed popular music tradition, places in the far east like Japan, South Korea and Thailand for example.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Hey Bach....here's a famous arab classical song.

Abdel Halim Hafez - Qariat Al Fingan

Part 1





Part 2





The translation of the lyrics here [you may have to close an advert at the top of the page]
http://www.gugalyrics.com/ABDEL-HALIM-HAFEZ-QARIAT-EL-FINGAN-LYRICS/75548/


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

I like Arab and Indian music, but Chinese music bores me to death... And Javanese (Gamelan) music is incredibly good.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

I still don't understand music from other cultures. 

There are no composers, no compositions, just improvisations? Correct me if I'm wrong. What I really want is some Arabic melodies to transcribe for solo oboe..


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Bach check out the Hong Kong Chinese Orchcetra to hear Chinese classical music.


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

How come you "want to become more interested in Arabic music"? Either you are or you aren't!

I know a bit about World music, but Arabic is probably my weakest suit (Natacha Atlas is about as far as it goes), African is more my thing.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Bach, I don't know but you might like Klezmer. I love it... alot. And I'm not even Jewish.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

starry said:


> The Chinese classical music that someone showed me once just sounded like folk music, so maybe that wasn't real the classical style?
> 
> What most people describe as world music seems to be just simple folk music. This annoys me because alot of places have a very well developed popular music tradition, places in the far east like Japan, South Korea and Thailand for example.


The Chinese classical music I heard was recognizably "classical": lengthy movements, use of motifs and form, very ritualistic in the same way most Western classical music is.

Folk music rarely makes it into the form people want from world music. World music is like indigenous music... adapted to Western pop beats, song format, etc.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Bach said:


> I still don't understand music from other cultures.
> 
> There are no composers, no compositions, just improvisations? Correct me if I'm wrong. What I really want is some Arabic melodies to transcribe for solo oboe..


Just like American folk music was handed down "by ear", most traditional world music was taught without music. And Arabic music is different depending on the region- the peninsula? Northern Africa? The music varies.

The best set of Arabic music I've come across is this one. Of course, at about 17 CDs it's overkill, but the set is available in separate volumes, too.

Before you start transcribing melodies, learn about Middle Eastern modes and scales. That typical Arabic or Klezmer sound comes from variations on the melodic minor scale.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Cheers buddy, that's a great help. It's all available on iTunes, which is fantastic.. 

I'm also interested in Hindustani music and I've purchased a Shehnai and Bansuri!  (I'm an oboist, so it should come fairly easily)


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Does anybody have any Recommendations for albums of Hindustani music? (preferably featuring music played on the Shehnai and Bansuri?)


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Here's a Bansuri recording that I picked up at a used CD store and enjoy:

http://www.amazon.com/Flights-Improvisation-G-S-Sachdev/dp/B0000022AB/ref=pd_bxgy_m_text_b

This guy is pretty famous in India- he's like the Ravi Shankar of the bansuri.


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## Scott Good (Jun 8, 2009)

BuddhaBandit said:


> Here's a Bansuri recording that I picked up at a used CD store and enjoy:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Flights-Improvisation-G-S-Sachdev/dp/B0000022AB/ref=pd_bxgy_m_text_b
> 
> This guy is pretty famous in India- he's like the Ravi Shankar of the bansuri.


OMG, I love this recording! Bach, get it as fast as you can!!! Hurry!!!!


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## Scott Good (Jun 8, 2009)

Bach said:


> I still don't understand music from other cultures.
> 
> There are no composers, no compositions, just improvisations? Correct me if I'm wrong. What I really want is some Arabic melodies to transcribe for solo oboe..


I am no expert, but I have studied Arabic classical music a bit.

I mostly learned from a book called "Arabic Music"...and I can't remember the author, so, not really much help. Which is too bad because it was a really well written book which describes Arabic classical music using Western ligo and notation.

Argg, I wish I could remember the author.

At any rate, here are a few things to think about. Arabic music uses "modes" called Maqam. In this music, the Maqam are often associated directly with rituals and emotions - more so than in western music.

Maqam "modes" are different than western modes in that they also imply melodic ideas, and often have rhythmic qualities associated with them as well.

Most songs are structured around an improvised or highly embellished melody that will ascend, often over 2 octaves, and then returns.

I have to use the word often as this tradition is not as widely encoded as western music. Regional differences exist and are extensive.

1/4 tones are used frequently (and even smaller intervals as well), but it is the 3/4 tone interval that I found to be the most common use of a "microtone" - that is, the interval that divides the m3rd in half. Here is a common example.






This is one of my favorites: Saba






And here's a piece in this mode you can learn - all written out!






+ lots more linking to it.

Enjoy!


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

the Hijaz Maqam is the one used in the Misirlou.


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## Clockwork (Jun 22, 2009)

I'm surprised so many nationalities have been brought up, but not African music. That's the _first_ thing I think of when I hear that unfortunately vague umbrella term, "World Music".

Ali Farka Toure and Toumani Diabate collaborated on "In the Heart of the Moon" a little while back, which is a wonderfully gentle guitar album; King Sunny Ade and Femi Kuti are some of the best current big-band African music; Amadou & Mariam are ridiculous blind singers from Mali who are also worth checking out.


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## Scott Good (Jun 8, 2009)

Well, Bach did start the thread asking about Arabic music.

I'm a huge fan of Mbube singing from South Africa. (and not just The Lion King!!)






and of course, the beautiful Gahu of Ghana.

(this is not overly authentic, but I liked it best of the Utube recordings. The little boy is playing the lead part - master drum or something translated like that, and the other guy is playing many parts usually performed by an ensemble, so it's a very simple version.)


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

A big thing in Arabic music is Koran reciting, lots of international competitions for it.


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## vavaving (Apr 20, 2009)

How about some Cat Stevens?


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