# Essential works of CPE Bach?



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Lately, I have been seeing some talk on this forum regarding JS Bach's most famous son, Carl Philipp Emanuel. Namely, I have seen it said that he is on a level with Joseph Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven etc. To me, this is crazy talk, because most of what I've heard of his music is fine, pleasant, but superfluous. We can clearly hear the influence on the later generations, and I think he is invaluable as a transitional figure, much like how someone like Dietrich Buxtehude would go on to influence JS Bach, but few would put him on the same level.

Anyway, I'm looking to right this wrong in my head. Presumably, I just have not heard the right works of his yet. I have a disc from Brilliant Classics with the Hamburg symphonies, and they are very nice, pleasant works, without a whole lot of depth - certainly not on the level of any Haydn symphony. That being said, I do think it's a good performance, the best I've heard of these works, and I would recommend it to anybody.










Where do I go from here? Who has recorded a good collection of his keyboard sonatas? I have heard this may be where he really shines...? What else?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

flamencosketches said:


> Lately, I have been seeing some talk on this forum regarding JS Bach's most famous son, Carl Philipp Emanuel. Namely, I have seen it said that he is on a level with Joseph Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven etc. To me, this is crazy talk, because most of what I've heard of his music is fine, pleasant, but superfluous.?


Is it more than just one person who claims this?

Anyway, I would agree with your general assessment, although I would not go as far as saying it's superfluous. I like his concertos (especially the flute concertos and organ concertos).


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

May I add the Cello Concertos

Jean-Guihen Queyras (cello), Ensemble Resonanz, Riccardo Minasi.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> Is it more than just one person who claims this?
> 
> Anyway, I would agree with your general assessment, although I would not go as far as saying it's superfluous. I like his concertos (especially the flute concertos and organ concertos).


I've seen at least two or three claim this recently. Usually in the context of Haydn's greatness, someone will piggyback with their "don't forget about CPE Bach" routine.

The Cello and Flute concertos sound promising. I should have to check those out.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Not sure that I necessarily believe this, but supposedly 'his name fell into neglect during the 19th century, with Robert Schumann notoriously opining that "as a creative musician he remained very far behind his father"; others opined that he was "a somewhat feeble imitator of his father's style". All the same, Johannes Brahms held him in high regard and edited some of his music.'

Some consider him a transition figure between the baroque and classical eras, which I believe is true, more closely toward the beginning of the classical era, early enough to essentially be forgotten or neglected but not completely. I don't think he was a feeble imitator of his father's style; I consider him more modern and forward-looking, a part of the classical era. Mozart studied with him when he was 8 and held him in high regard. I haven't heard enough of him to base an opinion on. However, I do enjoy the liveliness of his cello concerto:






While he may have been more modern, from what I've heard, I highly doubt that he was up to the level of his father. But who is?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The series that this comes from has been a constant delight for me. There are some 20 volumes and they overflow with invention. Somehow it is the sheer number of works that impress with their variety but each concerto is a winner as well.









And then there is this (an unmissable CD, I feel):


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> Where do I go from here? Who has recorded a good collection of his keyboard sonatas?


Jocelyne Cuillier, there are two recordings one called _Rêveries pour connaisseurs et amateurs_, and the other called _Sonates pour Yukio_ . 


flamencosketches said:


> I have heard this may be where he really shines...?


There are two big landmarks, the Kenner und Liebhaber sonatas and the Prussian Sonatas. My main interest is in the former, which are less classical in style, that's what Jocelyne Cuiller does. There are many recordings of the Prussian Sonatas, many people think that they are very high quality musically. Bob van Asperen recorded them, for example.



flamencosketches said:


> What else?


Violin sonatas maybe. What I've heard of his other music has mostly not been my sort of thing, though I haven't heard those symphonies you cited.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> *Is it more than just one person who claims this? *
> 
> Anyway, I would agree with your general assessment, although I would not go as far as saying it's superfluous. I like his concertos (especially the flute concertos and organ concertos).


Yes. Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven all seemed to believe this and said so.

Essential works:

The four symphonies Wq. 183 and the string symphonies Wq. 182 are wonderful. Wq. 183#1 in particular is a masterpiece.

The Prussian Sonatas Wq. 48 and Württemberg Sonatas Wq. 49 are arguably the most important keyboard sonatas of the early Classical Era.

CPE was probably the 18th century's second most important composer of keyboard concertos. The one hammeredclavier cites above (the D minor) is among his best, but there are about fifty to choose from.

His keyboard fantasies are justifiably famous.



Larkenfield said:


> Mozart studied with him when he was 8 and held him in high regard. I haven't heard enough of him to base an opinion on.


Mozart studied with JC, not CPE.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> Mozart studied with JC, not CPE.


Oops! How right you are.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Another favorite of his (the entire baroque box set is excellent):






Here I'd say CPE sounds considerably more baroque than classical. (No wonder that some view him as a transitional figure between the two eras.) There's also a lovely ll. Andante lento Molto that's part of this Concerto for Orchestra in D Major. I would consider the Eugene Ormandy with the Philidelphia Orchestra a better performance... I do not view Bach's sons as feeble or mere imitators; I believe they could be confident and decisive and had an identity of their own, including off-topic Johann Christian Bach, such as his Sinfonia for Double Orchestra in E-Flat Major, Op. 18, No. 1:
















His Sinfonia for Double Orchestra in D Major, Op. 18, No. 3 is also a delight... I love the baroque era because it's essentially absolute music that's not about the composer's personal life or his aches and pains. The music is more 'objectively' realized rather than subjectively trying to tell a story or being anything other than masterfully composed absolute music, though there are of course some exceptions. The music is clear, often elegant dignified, and intelligently designed. (This is not a slur on the later romantic era.) Each era has its strengths and delights if one isn't obsessively dissatisfied and hype-critical.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

It's been too long since I was investigating CPE Bach to name specific works as "essential," but I would say he strikes me as a composer that produced a great amount of works of extremely high quality, even if he didn't have many outstanding masterpieces that we'd rank with the best of the masters. It's often tough to recommend such artists, in general, because it requires a much greater time investment for one to hear how good they were as opposed to those who created a handful of masterpieces that make for easy and obvious recommendations. Haydn might be the extreme example of this; people tend not to rank many of his works up there with the "top 10-20 masterpieces" of any given genre, but it's impossible to go through the entirety of his symphonies, or string quartets, or piano trios, or choral music, and not marvel at how consistently superb he was.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> It's been too long since I was investigating CPE Bach to name specific works as "essential," but I would say he strikes me as a composer that produced a great amount of works of extremely high quality, even if he didn't have many outstanding masterpieces that we'd rank with the best of the masters. It's often tough to recommend such artists, in general, because it requires a much greater time investment for one to hear how good they were as opposed to those who created a handful of masterpieces that make for easy and obvious recommendations. Haydn might be the extreme example of this; people tend not to rank many of his works up there with the "top 10-20 masterpieces" of any given genre, but it's impossible to go through the entirety of his symphonies, or string quartets, or piano trios, or choral music, and not marvel at how consistently superb he was.


Ah, you're so right, regarding Haydn. Perhaps this trouble applies to CPE Bach as well. God knows it took me some time to get into Haydn. I now consider him a favorite, but only as of recently. I guess the way to get into CPE Bach will be just listen to as many of his works as possible and see how I react to each. I have that one CD with a few of the symphonies. I think now I must get my hands on the keyboard works, and some of the concertos mentioned in this thread.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Some years ago I listened to CPE Bach keyboard works while painting the kitchen. After that he became a natural favorite! I can listen to it all day! I especially like a recording with Andreas Staier & the Freiburger Barockorchester of 6 concertos wq43.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

"His work is full of invention and, most importantly, extreme unpredictability, and wide emotional range even within a single work, a style that may be categorized as _empfindsamer Stil_. It is no less sincere in thought than polished and felicitous in phrase. His keyboard sonatas, for example, mark an important epoch in the history of musical form. Lucid in style, delicate and tender in expression, they are even more notable for the freedom and variety of their structural design; they break away altogether from both the Italian and the Viennese schools, moving instead toward the cyclical and improvisatory forms that would become common several generations later."









*CPE Bach: Symphonies & Cello Concertos*

*Anner Bylsma (cello)
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, Gustav Leonhardt*

*Link to complete albums (24 videos) - *

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nQqEnukp-5UoC9KQ5QKWtvvgRlcZynpho

*Works*

Bach, C P E: Cello Concerto No. 1 in A minor, Wq. 170 (H432)
Bach, C P E: Cello Concerto No. 2 in B flat major, Wq. 171 (H436)
Bach, C P E: Cello Concerto No. 3 in A major, Wq. 172 (H439)
Bach, C P E: Hamburg Symphony in B minor, Wq. 182/5 (H661)
Bach, C P E: Symphony in D major, Wq. 183/1 (H663)
Bach, C P E: Symphony in E flat major, Wq. 183/2 (H664)
Bach, C P E: Symphony in F major, Wq. 183/3 (H665)
Bach, C P E: Symphony in G major, Wq. 183/4 (H666)









*CPE Bach Edition, Vol. 1*

*Link to complete albums (71 videos) - *

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nCs1BGF4bakySe6m54q5qZQqt4z-Clj2Q

*Works*

Bach, C P E: Harpsichord Concerto in G major, Wq. 34 (H444)
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Concerto in C minor, Wq. 43/4 (H474)
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Concerto in D minor, Wq. 22 (H425)
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Concerto in E, Wq. 14 (H417)
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Concerto in G minor, Wq. 6 (H409)
Bach, C P E: Oboe Concerto in B flat major, Wq. 164 (H466)
Bach, C P E: Oboe Concerto in E flat major, Wq. 165 (H468)
Bach, C P E: Oboe Sonata in G minor, Wq. 135 (H549)
Bach, C P E: Quartet (Trio) for Flute, Viola, Cello and Keyboard in A minor, Wq. 93 (H537)
Bach, C P E: Symphony in C major, Wq. 174 (H649)
Bach, C P E: Symphony in D major, Wq. 183/1 (H663)
Bach, C P E: Symphony in E flat major, Wq. 179 (H654)
Bach, C P E: Symphony in E flat major, Wq. 183/2 (H664)
Bach, C P E: Symphony in E minor, Wq. 178 (H653)
Bach, C P E: Symphony in F major, Wq. 183/3 (H665)
Bach, C P E: Symphony in G major, Wq. 183/4 (H666)

*C.P.E. Bach: Edition, Vol. 2*

*Link to complete albums (84 videos) -*

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6Vj9VGZsE8wEP7xXZGU-WGf_hU7WCFC0

*Works*

Bach, C P E: Flute Sonata in B flat major, Wq. 130 (H560)
Bach, C P E: Flute Sonata in D major, Wq. 126 (H553)
Bach, C P E: Flute Sonata in D major, Wq. 131 (H561)
Bach, C P E: Flute Sonata in E minor, Wq. 124 (H551, 1737)
Bach, C P E: Flute Sonata in G major, Wq. 134 (H548)
Bach, C P E: Hamburg Sonata in G, Wq. 133
Bach, C P E: Quartet (Trio) for Flute, Viola, Cello and Keyboard in A minor, Wq. 93 (H537)
Bach, C P E: Quartet in D Major, Wq. 94
Bach, C P E: Sonata for flute and continuo in D major, Wq. 129 (H551)
Bach, C P E: Sonata for Flute and Harpsichord in G major, Wq. 127 (H554)
Bach, C P E: Sonata in A minor for flute and basso continuo, Wq. 128 (H555)
Bach, C P E: Sonata in C minor (Prussian Sonata No. 4), Wq. 48/4 (H27)
Bach, C P E: Trio in A major for flute, violin and basso continuo, Wq 146 (H570)
Bach, C P E: Violin Sonata in B minor, Wq. 76
Bach, C P E: Violin Sonata in D minor, Wq. 72 (H503)

*C.P.E. Bach: Edition, Vol. 3*

*Link to complete album (89 videos) -*

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpZqJPnflSQP7ZLxi2agTBVtmbyDgBI_K

*Works*

Bach, C P E: Fantasia for keyboard in C major, Wq. 59/6 (H284)
Bach, C P E: Fantasia for keyboard in F major, Wq. 59/5 (H279)
Bach, C P E: Fantasia in B flat major, Wq. 61/3 (H289)
Bach, C P E: Fantasie (Rondo) in G, Wq. 59/2 (H268)
Bach, C P E: Fantasy in E flat major, Wq. 58/6 (H277)
Bach, C P E: Freie Fantasie, Wq. 58/7 (H278)
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in B flat major, Wq. 49/4 (H32) 'Württemberg Sonata No. 4'
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in A flat major, Wq. 49/2 (H31) 'Württemberg Sonata No. 2'
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in A minor, Wq. 49/1 (H30) 'Württemberg Sonata No. 1'
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in A minor, Wq. 57/2 (H247)
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in B flat major, Wq. 59/3 (H282)
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in B minor, Wq. 49/6 (H36) 'Württemberg Sonata No. 6'
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in D major, Wq. 61/2 (H286)
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in D minor, Wq. 57/4 (H208)
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in E flat major, Wq. 49/5 (H34) 'Württemberg Sonata No. 5'
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in E minor, Wq. 49/3 (H33) 'Württemberg Sonata No. 3'
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in E minor, Wq. 61/5 (H287)
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in F major, Wq. 55/5 (H245)
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in F minor, Wq. 57/6 (H173)
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in G major, Wq. 55/6 (H187)
Bach, C P E: Keyboard Sonata in G major, Wq. 58/2 (H273)
Bach, C P E: Rondo I in A major, Wq. 58/1 (H276)
Bach, C P E: Rondo in A minor, Wq. 56/5 (H262)
Bach, C P E: Rondo in B flat major, Wq. 58/5 (H.267)
Bach, C P E: Rondo in C major, Wq. 56/1 (H260)
Bach, C P E: Rondo in C minor, Wq. 59/4 (H283)
Bach, C P E: Rondo in D major, Wq. 56/3 (H261)
Bach, C P E: Rondo in D minor, Wq. 61/4 (H290)
Bach, C P E: Rondo in E flat major, Wq. 61/1 (H288)
Bach, C P E: Rondo in E major, Wq. 57/1 (H265)
Bach, C P E: Rondo in E major, Wq. 58/3 (H274)
Bach, C P E: Rondo in F major, Wq. 57/5
Bach, C P E: Rondo in G major, Wq. 57/3 (H271)
Bach, C P E: Sonata in A major, Wq. 55/4 (H186)
Bach, C P E: Sonata in D major, Wq. 61/6 (H291)
Bach, C P E: Sonata in E minor, Wq. 59/1 (H281)

*C.P.E. Bach Edition, Vol. 4*

*Link to complete albums (44 videos) - *

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nE8t6H0NZLLqdNQqgUmNpi6AvrQzi0KL8

*Works*

Bach, C P E: Geistliche Oden und Lieder Wq194
Bach, C P E: Magnificat in D, Wq. 215 (H772)
Bach, C P E: Sinfonia in E minor, Wq. 122/3 (H115)
Bach, C P E: Sinfonia in F major, Wq. 122/2 (H104)
Bach, C P E: Sinfonia in G major, Wq. 122/1 (H45)
Bach, C P E: Sinfonia in G major, Wq. 180 (H655)
Bach, C P E: Symphony in G major, Wq. 173 (H648)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> Where do I go from here? Who has recorded a good collection of his keyboard sonatas?


I forgot Pletnev. When it came out I used to play it a lot in the car, and some of the music making seemed very good, very personal, some less so. But worth finding I would have thought.


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## mark6144 (Apr 6, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> Who has recorded a good collection of his keyboard sonatas?


I really enjoy the complete solo keyboard works by Ana-Marija Markovina. Remarkably and consistently good considering the large amount of material, IMHO, and an easy way to start exploring his keyboard works, especially if you use streaming. There are only a handful for which I prefer other recordings.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Played on a tangent piano, a sort of piano-harpsichord hybrid popular in Bach's day, really sparkles and shines.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I highly recommend the two CDs of CPE Bach's flute concerti from Alexis Kossenko. Here's Vol. II.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

One of m favorite cds is a father and son combination performed by Gustav Leonhardt..










The first movement of the CPE...


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Couchie said:


> Played on a tangent piano, a sort of piano-harpsichord hybrid popular in Bach's day, really sparkles and shines.


Yes, tangent piano is a beautiful sounding instrument! Spanyi uses it for several concertos in his complete CPE set.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

some gorgeous slow movements:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

expressive woodwind writing and sophisticated motivic working that anticipate Viennese classicism:
0:56





love the section at 1:20




also the rhythm of the first movement:


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

flamencosketches said:


> Lately, I have been seeing some talk on this forum regarding JS Bach's most famous son, Carl Philipp Emanuel. Namely, I have seen it said that he is on a level with Joseph Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven etc. To me, this is crazy talk, because most of what I've heard of his music is fine, pleasant, but superfluous. We can clearly hear the influence on the later generations, and I think he is invaluable as a transitional figure, much like how someone like Dietrich Buxtehude would go on to influence JS Bach, but few would put him on the same level.
> 
> Anyway, I'm looking to right this wrong in my head. Presumably, I just have not heard the right works of his yet. I have a disc from Brilliant Classics with the Hamburg symphonies, and they are very nice, pleasant works, without a whole lot of depth - certainly not on the level of any Haydn symphony. That being said, I do think it's a good performance, the best I've heard of these works, and I would recommend it to anybody.
> 
> ...


You are not alone in being baffled by CPE's reputation with the "elite" of TC.

I think though few would claim he is on Haydn and Mozart's level.

I think the best of what he composed is worth listening to. But he's not that much better than the chasing pack.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

PlaySalieri said:


> You are not alone in being baffled by CPE's reputation with the "elite" of TC.
> 
> *I think though few would claim he is on Haydn and Mozart's level.*
> 
> I think the best of what he composed is worth listening to. But he's not that much better than the chasing pack.


I would. Both Haydn and Mozart probably would. He is enormously better than the chasing pack.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> I would. Both Haydn and Mozart probably would. He is enormously better than the chasing pack.


How can you justify that view when virtually none of his pieces are in today's "standard" repertoire?

recordings yes - but all and sundry are now recorded so that doesn't count for much


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Better start listening to CPE people! He is an important part of music history. Why question the worth of his music?
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/feb/24/cpe-bach


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

PlaySalieri said:


> How can you justify that view when virtually none of his pieces are in today's "standard" repertoire?
> 
> recordings yes - but all and sundry are now recorded so that doesn't count for much


Whose standard repertoire? Modern orchestras'? He didn't write for that ensemble. Pianists? Didn't write much for those either. Hundreds of his works are in the standard rep of the harpsichord, clavichord, and HIP ensembles. In case you haven't noticed, harpsichord concertos are not a big item on the schedules of modern orchestras. As for his symphonies, even if one thought it appropriate to adapt his to modern orchestras and instruments, twelve minute symphonies for very small forces are not common. Only early music specialists are trained to properly perform his keyboard works, as they require the ability and knowledge to improvise elaborate ornamentation in repeated passages. Don't hear much Dufay and Josquin performed by the NY Philharmonic either.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

‐--------------------------


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> Some consider him a transition figure between the baroque and classical eras, which I believe is true, more closely toward the beginning of the classical era, early enough to essentially be forgotten or neglected but not completely. I don't think he was a feeble imitator of his father's style; I consider him more modern and forward-looking, a part of the classical era.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Although I find Sebastian's genius in various genres (such as the numerous fantasie pieces written for the harpsichord such as BWV903, and countless liturgical works such as BWV235), but I feel his orchestral works are not the best area to look for it.
I feel the most important orchestral stuff in Sebastian is pieces like BWV1043, the kind of style Sebastian inherited from Vivaldi. (And the harpsichord concertos are mostly transcriptions of those violin concertos.)
Brandenburg Concertos (except the 3rd and 5th) and Orchestral Suites (Except some moments like "Air on the G string" and some of the Bourrees.) don't seem like Sebastian's best. 
It was Emmanuel who really added richness and variety into the genre.






Emmanuel's symphonies, albeit smaller in scale, anticipate Mozart symphonies, such as the Haffner.
I hear the final movement of the 40th at 2:37


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

......................(Deleted)


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

CPE Bach's work was important, but I have to disagree with some of the comments here. I don't agree with hammeredclavier's remarks about J.S. Bach's orchestral works, and I also don't agree with Ed that he was on the level of Haydn and Mozart. 

Rosen also clearly felt CPE wasn't as advanced as what he calls the great three classical masters - Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven. 

"Carl Philip Emanuel's most striking passages: they exist for themselves, with little relation to any conception of the whole work." 

Rosen later criticizes CPE's use of sequences and adds:

"C.P.E. Bach's...practice is incoherent: he is more interested in local effects - he delights in harmonic shock, as did Haydn; but Haydn knew how to weld his effects together, and his most disparate harmonies are not only reconciled but even explained by what follows as well as implied by what precedes."


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

tdc said:


> CPE Bach's work was important, but I have to disagree with some of the comments here. I don't agree with hammeredclavier's remarks about J.S. Bach's orchestral works, and I also don't agree with Ed that he was on the level of Haydn and Mozart.
> 
> Rosen also clearly felt CPE wasn't as advanced as what he calls the great three classical masters - Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven.


Bach was born in 1714, 56 years before Beethoven, 42 years before Mozart, and 18 years before Haydn. Different eras. He was creating from scratch the style the big three adopted, hence Mozart's statement that "he is the father of us all." In this context, the statement that he is less advanced than the big three carries little weight.

Rosen is wrong because, as always, he concentrates on harmony and ignores everything else. Bach had more overall coherence and unified dramatic profiles in his instrumental works than most of the work of Haydn and Mozart.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> Some things can be underrated and not be in standard repertoire. I feel this way strongly towards Hummel and CPE Bach compared to Schubert. *I would say at least in the concerto genre, CPE Bach is as significant as his own father and Mozart.*
> 
> Mozart conducted his Magnificat in 1788 in a concert sponsored by van Swieten


I dont usually comment on your posts - despite being probably as big a Mozart admirer as you are.

But come on - CPE, as good and original as he was - has nothing in the league of his dad's great concerti and Mozart's best.

I doubt if, for one thing - he had Mozart's melodic genius - which is probably why his works are not better known.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

PlaySalieri said:


> I dont usually comment on your posts - despite being probably as big a Mozart admirer as you are.
> But come on - CPE, as good and original as he was - has nothing in the league of his dad's great concerti and Mozart's best.
> I doubt if, for one thing - he had Mozart's melodic genius - which is probably why his works are not better known.


Maybe that was an exaggeration on my part. There was a time I thought the piano concertos were a big part of what made Mozart so good. I still think 14th, 17th, 18th, 20th~25th, 27th outstanding, but I now feel that some pieces like 26th a bit too inclined toward the Italian style and tend to show only one side of his character (the side that's most well-known to the general public).
These days I rather feel that Mozart is great for other things, more obscure works like Kyrie in D minor K341, Adagio and Fugue in C minor K546, Maureriche Trauermusik K477, Rondo in A minor K511, Fantasie in F minor K608, Haydn Quartets. I started listening to more obscure such as works early Litanies K195, K243. There's a lot of variety throughout Missa Solemnis K337 as well. (Listen to the Benedictus) I started to value that kind of stuff more as they show his other sides. The same way I value CPE Bach as he shows other sides of classicism.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> Maybe that was an exaggeration on my part. There was a time I thought the piano concertos were a big part of what made Mozart so good. I still think 14th, 17th, 18th, 20th~25th, 27th outstanding, but I now feel that some pieces like 26th a bit too inclined toward the Italian style and tend to show only one side of his character (the side that's most well-known to the general public).
> These days I rather feel that Mozart is great for other things, more obscure works like Kyrie in D minor K341, Adagio and Fugue in C minor K546, Maureriche Trauermusik K477, Rondo in A minor K511, Fantasie in F minor K608, Haydn Quartets. I started listening to more obscure such as works early Litanies K195, K243. There's a lot of variety throughout Missa Solemnis K337 as well. (Listen to the Benedictus) I started to value that kind of stuff more as they show his other sides. The same way I value CPE Bach as he shows other sides of classicism.


So because Mozart composed one off par late PC you no longer think his concerti are what made Mozart so good?

No taking into account the violin concertos, flute, sinfonia concertante, clarinet, horn

Mozart is probably the greatest concerto composer - so yes - your claim is an exaggeration - at the very least.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

PlaySalieri said:


> So because Mozart composed one off par late PC you no longer think his concerti are what made Mozart so good?
> No taking into account the violin concertos, flute, sinfonia concertante, clarinet, horn
> Mozart is probably the greatest concerto composer - so yes - your claim is an exaggeration - at the very least.


My view has changed over the years. I think Mozart concertos are _part of_ what makes Mozart good and Mozart is _part of_ what makes classicism good. (The same can be said of Sebastian.)
I often find that, more than Mozart's own 26th concerto, I get more satisfaction from listening to the fiery, restless violin passages and stark contrast in the credos of Spatzenmesse in C K220 and Missa in B flat K275, the passionate vocal writing of Confitebor tibi from Vesper K321 or Et Vitam Venturi triple fugue of Missa Longa in C K262, etc etc. 
At the same I finding a lot of CPE Bach's concertos and symphonies underrated. So I began to question: "why do people in general make such a huge deal about Mozart's concertos/symphonies when it comes to the classical era? There are so many other good works other than concertos/symphonies in Mozart, and so many good works in other great masters such as CPE Bach as well."
So these days I don't think a Mozart concerto should be considered greater than underrated works of Mozart's own or those of other masters such as CPE Bach _"just because it's a concerto by Mozart"_. I think Divertimento K334, for example, is a greater work than the horn concertos.
Look how much contrast Mozart goes through in this work:

3:00~3:40
9:50~10:10
14:10~14:40
20:20~20:40
25:00~26:00


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> Rosen is wrong because, as always, he concentrates on harmony and ignores everything else. Bach had more overall coherence and unified dramatic profiles in his instrumental works than most of the work of Haydn and Mozart.


I'm not sure what you mean by coherence and unity. CPE Bach's Magnificat contains wonderful music, but there's a massive fugue (that's obviously modeled after his father's) included so that:
_[movement A] - [main body] - [movement A modified] - [fugue]. _
The whole structure feels rather "awkward" to me. 
It feels like either the [fugue] or [movement A modified] could be removed and the whole structure could still work perfectly fine. I appreciate CPE Bach's WQ67 Fantasie for the improvisatory nature but not the sense of structure and transition, (unlike Mozart K475). Although I keep emphasizing I admire him, I don't think he had what it takes to be good at large-scale stuff like opera.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> My view has changed over the years. I think Mozart concertos are _part of_ what makes Mozart good and Mozart is _part of_ what makes classicism good. (The same can be said of Sebastian.)
> I often find that, more than Mozart's own 26th concerto, I get more satisfaction from listening to the fiery, restless violin passages and stark contrast in the credos of Spatzenmesse in C K220 and Missa in B flat K275, the passionate vocal writing of Confitebor tibi from Vesper K321 or Et Vitam Venturi triple fugue of Missa Longa in C K262, etc etc.
> At the same I finding a lot of CPE Bach's concertos and symphonies underrated. So I began to question: "why do people in general make such a huge deal about Mozart's concertos/symphonies when it comes to the classical era? There are so many other good works other than concertos/symphonies in Mozart, and so many good works in other great masters such as CPE Bach as well."
> So these days I don't think a Mozart concerto should be considered greater than underrated works of Mozart's own or those of other masters such as CPE Bach _"just because it's a concerto by Mozart"_. I think Divertimento K334, for example, is a greater work than the horn concertos.
> ...


It's odd how you compare K334 (a chamber divertimento) with Mozart's horn concertos.

Mozart wasn't just a concerto composer - yes we know that. he sparkles across all the genres.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by coherence and unity. CPE Bach's Magnificat contains wonderful music, but there's a massive fugue (that's obviously modeled after his father's) included so that:
> _[movement A] - [main body] - [movement A modified] - [fugue]. _
> The whole structure feels rather "awkward" to me.
> It feels like either the [fugue] or [movement A modified] could be removed and the whole structure could still work perfectly fine. I appreciate CPE Bach's WQ67 Fantasie for the improvisatory nature but not the sense of structure and transition, (unlike Mozart K475). Although I keep emphasizing I admire him, I don't think he had what it takes to be good at large-scale stuff like opera.


What I mean is that Bach more consistently wrote finales that balanced the weight of his opening movements than did Haydn and Mozart. This is hardly surprising. It's typical for the North Germans.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I'd say CPE Bach's music is less audience-friendly (not a fault) than Mozart or Haydn, but very original, which explains him being less popular. He also had a great influence on Mozart and Beethoven. I like his fantasias and his flute concerto.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> I'd say CPE Bach's music is less audience-friendly (not a fault) than Mozart or Haydn, but very original, which explains him being less popular. He also had a great influence on Mozart and Beethoven. I like his fantasias and his flute concerto.


_Riiiight._ :lol: Beethoven stayed faithful to the spirit of Avant-garde and never wrote for any popular genres.
No wonder why he's so much less popular than Haydn. :lol:
cough Ruins of Athens cough King Stephen cough


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> This is hardly surprising. It's typical for the North Germans.


This is totally surprising to me, because you're the only one in the classical music world who argues this. And this is not the first time you did. I never understood you every time you did either, Mr. EdwardBast.

Perhaps you're criticizing Mozart, Haydn for writing major-key final movements to some of their minor-key works? Haydn has some minor key symphonies (ex. 83th, 95th) that end with major-key final movements. As far as I know in Mozart, there's only one significant minor-key work that end with a major-key last movement: Piano Quartet in G minor K478. 
I find your argument "Mozart, Haydn last movements are fillers" totally absurd. There are actually Mozart concertos that I think the last movements (14th, 19th) are the real bangers.



EdwardBast said:


> dramatic center of gravity


_"Not having the dramatic center of gravity in the first movements."_
This actually what you have occasionally described as one of the good things about another North German, Beethoven, the guy from Bonn. 
So let's examine the vaunted North German sense of "weight balance" using his works as examples:
Have you ever thought the convoluted final movement of the Third Symphony "Eroica" (with that uninspired Eroica variation theme) not worthy enough to stand up to the grand, tear-jerking first and second movements and should be just rewritten all over?
Have you ever thought the final "inversion fugue" of the second last piano sonata, Op.110 feels "incomplete", creating an uneasy feel of imbalance with the initial fugue? It is as if Beethoven wrote on the score "inversion fugue", but gave up after giving it a try.
Have you ever wondered why there's NO finale to the last piano sonata, Op.111? (You can argue all you want the boogie-woogie and minimalism of the second movement are good enough for a finale and they balance with the power of the first movement. I will not be convinced. )
Has it ever occurred to you the slow movements of Beethoven's piano concertos (except 4th, 5th) not really all that memorable compared to Mozart's 9th, 15th, 17th, 18th, 20th, 21th, 22th, 23th?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> _Riiiight._ :lol: Beethoven stayed faithful to the spirit of Avant-garde and never wrote for any popular genres.
> No wonder why he's so much less popular than Haydn. :lol:
> cough Ruins of Athens cough King Stephen cough


I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion from what I wrote, especially when I mentioned Mozart along with Beethoven. Maybe from selective reasoning? But since you're at it, I do think it's obvious Beethoven wrote music none of the others mentioned would in their periods could get away with.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion from what I wrote, especially when I mentioned Mozart along with Beethoven. Maybe from selective reasoning? But since you're at it, I do think it's obvious Beethoven wrote music none of the others mentioned would in their periods could get away with.


No offense. I was just posing a question what does popularity have to do with audience-friendliness in music, using Beethoven and Haydn as examples. Sorry to say this, but I tend to think of people who like to use words like "audience-friendliness", "easy-listening" all the time as snobs. At least I don't do that. About your last line, I have never wished the others wrote boogie-woogie and minimalism like him.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> No offense. I was just posing a question what does popularity have to do with audience-friendliness in music, using Beethoven and Haydn as examples. *Sorry to say this, but I tend to think of people who like to use words like "audience-friendliness", "easy-listening" all the time as snobs.* At least I don't do that. About your last line, I have never wished the others wrote boogie-woogie and minimalism like him.


It's not only me that feels CPE Bach is less approachable in general.

"Even among his contemporaries", says Richards, "you get a sense that CPE Bach is an acquired taste. His music - or the music he considered representative of his talents - is miles away from the elegance and balance we associate with this period. Timelines are crisscrossed, he is endlessly stopping and starting, wrong-footing the listener and causing his audience to reconsider its relation to the music. In that sense, it's very postmodern, a kind of meta-music."

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/feb/24/cpe-bach


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> It's not only me that feels CPE Bach is less approachable in general.
> 
> "Even among his contemporaries", says Richards, "you get a sense that CPE Bach is an acquired taste. His music - or the music he considered representative of his talents - is miles away from the elegance and balance we associate with this period. Timelines are crisscrossed, he is endlessly stopping and starting, wrong-footing the listener and causing his audience to reconsider its relation to the music. In that sense, it's very postmodern, a kind of meta-music."
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/feb/24/cpe-bach


The writer doesn't seem to understand what us avid classical listeners conceive as "elegance and balance" in classical period music. Because CPE Bach's music too is full of proportions, symmetrical phrasing and classical era cadences. Anyway, I find that CPE Bach has certain catchiness, he's not any less approachable than the others. What do you think _"Empfindsamer Stil"_ means? I'm not pretentious about what I appreciate. I'm more curious why you think Haydn is all candy and fluff.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> The writer doesn't seem to understand what us avid classical listeners conceive as "elegance and balance" in classical period music. Because CPE Bach's music too is full of proportions, symmetrical phrasing and classical era cadences. Anyway, I find that CPE Bach has certain catchiness, he's not any less approachable than the others. What do you think _"Empfindsamer Stil"_ means? I'm not pretentious about what I appreciate. I'm more curious why you think Haydn is all candy and fluff.


Never said Haydn is "all candy and fluff", but rather that I found his music very charming in the past. I prefer his music to CPE Bach's. Methinks you take offense too easily, and tend to exaggerate things out of proportion. Not the first or second time.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> This is totally surprising to me, because you're the only one in the classical music world who argues this. And this is not the first time you did. I never understood you every time you did either, Mr. EdwardBast.
> 
> Perhaps you're criticizing Mozart, Haydn for writing *major-key final movements to some of their minor-key works*? Haydn has some minor key symphonies (ex. 83th, 95th) that end with major-key final movements. As far as I know in Mozart, there's only one significant minor-key work that end with a major-key last movement: Piano Quartet in G minor K478.
> *I find your argument "Mozart, Haydn last movements are fillers" totally absurd*. There are actually Mozart concertos that I think the last movements (14th, 19th) are the real bangers.
> ...


None of the statements in bold, which you attribute to me, were ever written or argued by me. I hope you are enjoying arguing with yourself.

This thread is not about Beethoven and the term North German refers to a style of composition that was no longer a thing in Beethoven's age. Strangely, it is relevant to the time in which CPE Bach worked, which is relevant to this thread.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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