# Composers' suffering and creative output?



## Guest (Mar 5, 2019)

Sometimes the greatest suffering brings out the most sublime music. Many composers suffered from illness or heartbreak, yet created the the greatest music the world has ever known. So here are my questions:

1. Which composers suffered in life?
2. Was their suffering a catalyst or an obstacle to their creative endeavors? Would their music remain the same had they lead more normal lives? If not, would the change be for the better or for the worst?
3. Did the more ''normal'' composers like Haydn and Mendelssohn lack emotional depth, when compared to composers who had to endure hardships?


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Very silly thread.... EVERYONE suffers in life.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> Very silly thread.... EVERYONE suffers in life.


some people suffer more than others, especially if they have neurosyphillis


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

1. Being human, all of them. 
2. You'd have to ask them. 
3. No.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Many composers were engulfed by emotional suffering.

Shostakovich saw many of his friends killed by the Soviet hierarchy and wrote music with double meanings according to "Testimony" by Volkov and "The New Shostakovich" by Ian McDonald. He thought he would be killed after his opera Lady MacBeth of Minsk District portrayed a woman murdering her drunken, abusive husband since it was considered a portrait of Stalin.

Soviet-era Czech composer Miloslav Kabelac's wife was murdered by the Soviet officials in his country. He wrote excessively depressing music.

Tchaikovsky was tortured by his homosexuality and by living in Russia, a place notoriously difficult for homosexuals. The nation only "legalized" homosexuality at the end of the 20th century and is still full of people that "queer hunt" -- gangs that seek out homosexuals for brutality.

Mahler's heart ailment and the end of life narrative of his 9th symphony are often connected, as is the death of his daughter and the composer setting to music Kindertotenlieder -- songs on the death of children -- against the wishes of his wife.

Many composers were also affected by ill health and disease.

Schubert acquired syphilis and Mercury poisoning around 1820 before writing his song cycle Winterreise about a man going slowly insane. Schubert died 1827, the same year the song cycle was published. Here is some discussion on the final years of his life: http://www.franzpeterschubert.com/illness__death.html

Robert Schumann was famously manic-depressive; he once tried suicide by jumping out a window of a psychiatric asylum onto a frozen lake. He had maddening periods of productivity and nothingness. His death may also have been caused by syphilis and Mercury poisoning.

Mozart and Chopin were both sickly much of their adult lives and died young.

The Czech composer Bedrich Smetana's death from insanity was attributed to syphilis as well.

The links between health, emotional life and musical output and/or depth of feeling are not always clear and rarely obvious.

Haydn led a good and long life by most 18th century standards but he married a woman he didn't love and lusted after her sister all his life. If you think he lacked emotional depth listen to any of the great six masses, the Creation or Seasons oratorios, or the Symphony No. 60, the funniest symphony ever written. He also invented the symphony, string quartet and piano trio, by the way.

Mendelssohn is often considered the happy story of a classical composer but he only lived 38 years. Anyone that thinks he lacked emotional depth has never heard Elijah, the Symphony No. 2 or his Bach-like Psalms 42 and 95...or the magical flight of fancy called A Midsummer Night's Dream.

The same is true for Mozart, who lived a brief 35 years. He wrote many of the greatest orchestral works as well as Don Giovanni, an opera about a man the is cast to Hell for his deeds, a magnificent Mass in C Minor and Requuiem the equal emotionally of any ever written and some of the other greatest operas ever written including the fantastic Magic Flute.

I was born in the middle 20th century when hunger was still an issue in America and people had polio and lived in iron lungs. Millennials take good health for granted, something no one did before the invention of penicillin and the Salk vaccine.

Composers writing music before those times knew their lives could be short and interrupted by poor health, poverty, totalitarianism, royalty, war and other reasons. They pressed on regardless.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Allan Pettersen - listening to his symphonies you think "Here is a deeply troubled, tortured man" and you're right. Had terrible health issues.
Vasily Kalinnikov - wrote two of the most joyful, exuberant, beautiful symphonies in existence. He also had horrible health issues, dying of tuberculosis in penury.

So no, I don't just because one his deprived and living in difficult circumstances makes him write "deeper" or more profound music. Also, anyone who thinks Haydn and Mendelssohn lack emotional depth really don't have very thorough knowledge of either composer. Both wrote lively, vivacious music full of life, but both could (and did) write very profoundly when called for.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I agree that there is no clear association between the "suffering" of artists and their creativity. The fact of the act of creation tends to suggest that creating art usually--maybe not always, but usually--transcends suffering. I should think suffering would tend to paralyze the creative impulse in most cases.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I think there's truth to the saying "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Suffering, hardship, pain are part of a normal life and have been shown by psychological research to build endurance. I don't think anyone is immune to it, even those who seem to have everything in life going for them.

Others have given excellent examples on how composers have dealt with real hardship. Their response varies just as that of any other person. Like Allan Pettersen mentioned above, Darius Milhaud also lived his life dealing with chronic pain and immobility. Yet a sense of optimism is a trademark of his music. His autobiography was one of the best reads for me because of how he loved life and lived it to the full despite his setbacks.

Although he's not a classical musician, I'll quote Jim Morisson of The Doors who had some deep insights on this topic:

_People are afraid of themselves, of their own reality; their feelings most of all. People talk about how great love is, but that's ********. Love hurts. Feelings are disturbing. People are taught that pain is evil and dangerous. How can they deal with love if they're afraid to feel? Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain._


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It's been asked whether suffering enhances or inhibits artistic creation. From personal experience, I would say the latter, definitely. But I think it can also provide substance and depth to an artist's work, if it doesn't cripple him. Being an artist doesn't make life easier; the demands of creative work and those of ordinary life don't sit comfortably together, creation is an inherently lonely activity, and when the ideas aren't flowing existence can feel rather futile and dark thoughts can crowd in. Not many of the great composers were happy people, unless they were happily married or well-supported by patrons. But it's a cliche among artists that success can ruin you. It seems that a certain amount of suffering keeps the creative gears lubricated.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

_"why do you think Beethoven wrote such a powerful but rather serene piece, in one of his darkest periods of his life?"

"*There is a popular myth that composers write the way they feel, which is simply not true.* For example, "Tchaikovsky wrote his Pathetique when he was suicidal"- not at all. You cannot write music if you're suicidal. You stay in bed, depressed."_


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

larold said:


> Haydn led a good and long life by most 18th century standards but he married a woman he didn't love and lusted after her sister all his life. If you think he lacked emotional depth listen to any of the great six masses, the Creation or Seasons oratorios, or the Symphony No. 60, the funniest symphony ever written. *He also invented the symphony, string quartet and piano trio, by the way.*


Could you please link me to a source that backs this claim? It just doesn't seem right to me. From what I know, it seems that Sammartini and composers from the Mannhein school were creating symphonies much before Haydn. I think he invented the string quartet, but I'm not so sure about the piano trio though.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuYY1gV8jhU
> 
> _"why do you think Beethoven wrote such a powerful but rather serene piece, in one of his darkest periods of his life?"
> 
> "*There is a popular myth that composers write the way they feel, which is simply not true.* For example, "Tchaikovsky wrote his Pathetique when he was suicidal"- not at all. You cannot write music if you're suicidal. You stay in bed, depressed."_


Different composers may have different ways of creating their art. Perhaps what isn't true for Bernstein the composer may still be for another person.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Schumann. From having to go to court to get married to his physical, mental health and finishing his life in an asylum. Throughout, composing such beautiful works even though how he was feeling at the time could be heard in his compositions!!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Judith said:


> Schumann. From having to go to court to get married to his physical, mental health and finishing his life in an asylum. Throughout, composing such beautiful works even though how he was feeling at the time could be heard in his compositions!!


I must be deaf, as I do not hear the suffering in those beautiful works. Are we talking about the symphonies or the piano concerto? It is a tribute to Schumann that he so successfully rose above his suffering.


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