# Saxophone in classical music



## Aramis

Thread to share your favourite works including saxophone(s) and to discuss the instruments and it's role in classical music in general.

I've discovered some interesting music recently - what surprised me was that there is much diversity among saxophone works, considering that it is young instrument and didn't have much time to grow into classical tradition. There is romantic and written in typical russian manner concerto by *Glazunov*, for someone accustomed to jazz saxophone only this concerto would probably sound a bit oddly. But it's charming. Then the impressionist stuff. Ravel unfortunately did not contribute to saxophone repertoire with anything significant (except incuding them in Bolero crew), but *Debussy* wrote quite kewl Rhapsody for saxophone and orchestra.

*Ibert* and *Villa-Lobos* both wrote full-scale concertos for saxophones but personally I can't say I dig them.

Never heard of saxophone sonata by any important composer.


----------



## mueske

Aramis said:


> Thread to share your favourite works including saxophone(s) and to discuss the instruments and it's role in classical music in general.
> 
> I've discovered some interesting music recently - what surprised me was that there is much diversity among saxophone works, considering that it is young instrument and didn't have much time to grow into classical tradition. There is romantic and written in typical russian manner concerto by *Glazunov*, for someone accustomed to jazz saxophone only this concerto would probably sound a bit oddly. But it's charming. Then the impressionist stuff. Ravel unfortunately did not contribute to saxophone repertoire with anything significant (except incuding them in Bolero crew), but *Debussy* wrote quite kewl Rhapsody for saxophone and orchestra.
> 
> *Ibert* and *Villa-Lobos* both wrote full-scale concertos for saxophones but personally I can't say I dig them.
> 
> *Never heard of saxophone sonata by any important composer*.


I'm going to make a huge leap of faith here, but... Try Hindemith?

Edit: just checked, he didn't write one..  Whadda ya know!


----------



## Earthling

mueske said:


> I'm going to make a huge leap of faith here, but... Try Hindemith?
> 
> Edit: just checked, he didn't write one..  Whadda ya know!


That was my first thought! --surprising, isn't it?


----------



## Guest

Depends on what you mean by "important," I guess.

Creston
Hindemith
Karg-Elert
Denisov
Tubin
Maslanka

Denisov wrote a saxophone concerto, too.

And lots of people have used it in the mix. Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Kabalevsky (the sax solo in his second cello concerto is the most exciting part of that piece, I think), Mussorgsky--hey! Those guys are all Russians.

Anyway, I can't remember all places I've heard saxophone in an ensemble playing "classical music." Many. I'm sure if I just went and pulled all the Stradivarius Times Now CDs from my shelves, there'd be saxophone parts all over the place.

And saxophone quartets! Boy howdy!! (New Century, Prism, Rova, Rascher (who play some really cool Gubaidulina and Xenakis and Nilsson and tons of others)).


----------



## Earthling

American composer *Ross Lee Finney* wrote a concerto for alto sax and orchestra. I don't recall much of it now, but it was an interesting dissonant work, very expressive-- at least I thought so at the time. I heard it some 20-odd years ago on a (likely now out-of-print) LP put out by New World Records.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Hooray for Russians using saxophone!! (i.e. Glazunov, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Kabalevsky)

Just to throw another name out there... Bernhard Heiden's Saxophone Sonata (1937). My best friend who is a saxophonist is learning it.


----------



## TWhite

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Hooray for Russians using saxophone!! (i.e. Glazunov, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Kabalevsky)
> 
> Just to throw another name out there... Bernhard Heiden's Saxophone Sonata (1937). My best friend who is a saxophonist is learning it.


Congratulations to your best friend--the Heiden Sax Sonata is a very interesting and extremely well-written work. I accompanied a friend of mine--a fine classical sax player--some years ago in a performance of the work. It's a very substantial piece of music--it has overtones of Hindemith--and very rewarding for both the saxophonist and pianist. Actually, the parts are so evenly distributed, that the pianist never feels like a mere 'accompanist' at all. It's a true 'dual' performance work. I like it a lot.

Rachmaninov uses the alto sax very effectively in the first movement of his "Symphonic Dances", his last composition, and the only one written in the United States at the end of his career. In order to 'place' the instrument effectively, he consulted with Robert Russell Benett, who was at the time (1941) a very successful Broadway orchestrator. The result is a very extraordinary and haunting piece of solo work.

Tom


----------



## Sid James

My favourite piece by Georges Bizet, his _L'Arlesienne Suite No. 1_, incorporates a saxophone (maybe the first classical work to do so?). Not much C19th stuff for this instrument, as it had only been invented and (I have read) guys like Wagner & R. Strauss thought that it was "vulgar" and for the plebs, not for the elites who went to see their operas. But in the C20th, it undoubtedly made it's way from marching bands to the concert hall.

Another guy who hasn't been mentioned is Astor Piazzolla, who incorporated the sax into the ensembles that accompanied him when playing his tangos. He also used other non-classical instruments, like the electric guitar and synthesisers...


----------



## dmg

I'm somewhat fond of Henri Tomasi's sax concerto.


----------



## Weston

Works prominently featuring saxophone from my collection: 

Debussy - Rapsodie arabe for Alto saxophone and Orchestra
Ewazen - Classical Concerto for tenor saxophone & orchestra 
Glazunov - Concerto for Alto Saxophone and String Orchestra in Eb, Op. 109
Heath - Out of the Cool for saxaphone and orchestra
Ibert - Concertino da camera for Alto Saxophone and 11 Instruments
Milhaud - Scaramouche, Suite for Saxophone and Orchestra 
Morrill - Saxophone Concerto

Of these, only the Glazunov and the David Heath pieces made much of an impression on me. I like the way classical performers make the sax sound better than the raspy kazoo tones of jazz players.


----------



## Aramis

> Maslanka


Och, man, that sounds tasty. Even more than Smetana. I got thirsty.

Seems like Koechlin wrote two pieces for saxophone and orchestra.


----------



## Octo_Russ

Don't forget the Saxophone in Vaughan Williams 6th Symphony, in my opinion an excellent use of the instrument as part of the orchestra.


----------



## Herkku

As a friend of (mainly) opera I have to mention Jules Massenet and his opera Le Roi de Lahore, where three saxophones are required in a waltz heard in paradise! Sadly, these have been omitted in the DVD version from Venice I reviewed a while ago, but are very much in evidence in the Sutherland/Bonynge audio recording. Knowing this, I started to look deeper into the matter. Massenet has at least defined saxophone in the scores of Werther (alto sax) and Hérodiade (also 3 sax). What was a complete surprise to me is that Puccini requires two alto saxophones onstage in Turandot! I don't know if this is ever observed, not that I would have noticed.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

In my school band, Saxophones are despised, because they sound bad, never stay in tune, don't play musically, etc. even though the players are quite decent.

But is that true in the outside world? Do any of you out there in Music Groups find the Saxophones being made fun of? I figure it's more unusual in my school situation. I like saxophones, so I would disagree with anyone who makes fun of them.


----------



## Sid James

Yes, Vaughan Williams liked the sax (three pop up in his ninth symphony, if my memory serves me correctly?). & I forgot to mention *Kodaly's* witty & humorous use of the instrument in his _Hary Janos_ suite...


----------



## maestro267

The only piece I have for solo saxophone and orchestra is Debussy's Rhapsody. My favourite saxophone parts in the orchestral repertoire are those of Vaughan Williams, especially the tenor sax solo in the 3rd movement of his Sixth Symhony and the saxophone trio in his Ninth.


----------



## Argus

Terry Riley composed a few saxophone quartets that I dig. Moondog loved the sax, if he is considered classical these days. One of my recent discoveries Annie Gosfield also created a piece for saxophone qaurtet called 'Brawl'.



> In my school band, Saxophones are despised, because they sound bad, never stay in tune, don't play musically, etc. even though the players are quite decent.
> 
> But is that true in the outside world? Do any of you out there in Music Groups find the Saxophones being made fun of? I figure it's more unusual in my school situation. I like saxophones, so I would disagree with anyone who makes fun of them.


Wotchoo torkin bowt?

The sax is infinitely cooler than all the other woodwind instruments combined. Charlie Parker didn't bop on no clarinet. John Coltrane didn't wail on no oboe. Ornette Coleman didn't noodle on no bassoon. Dexter Gordon didn't blow no flute. Coleman Hawkins didn't tickle no cor anglais reeds. Sonny Rollins didn't go down to the bridge and whap out no fool recorder. That dude who played the sax solo on Baker Street knew what was up when he chose a sax over a piccolo.

So tell your school band to lay of the saxamaphone, otherwise Branford Marsalis will be on your case.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Argus said:


> Wotchoo torkin bowt?
> 
> The sax is infinitely cooler than all the other woodwind instruments combined. Charlie Parker didn't bop on no clarinet. John Coltrane didn't wail on no oboe. Ornette Coleman didn't noodle on no bassoon. Dexter Gordon didn't blow no flute. Coleman Hawkins didn't tickle no cor anglais reeds. Sonny Rollins didn't go down to the bridge and whap out no fool recorder. That dude who played the sax solo on Baker Street knew what was up when he chose a sax over a piccolo.
> 
> So tell your school band to lay of the saxamaphone, otherwise Branford Marsalis will be on your case.


There you go! You know what, I'm gonna share this post with a close friend who plays saxophone, I hope this cheers her up.  She's very discouraged with her instrument/section, and she's the one made fun of sometimes.


----------



## toucan

dmg said:


> I'm somewhat fond of Henri Tomasi's sax concerto.


That's all the fondness a Tomasi could muster.
You might grow somewhat fond of Alfred Desenclos' Quartet for Saxophones. Two birds of a feather, Tomasi and Desenclos, mid-twentieth century academists.

Florent Schmitt wrote also wrote a quartet for saxophones. Paul Hindemith did not. But he did write a sonata for piano and alto sax.


----------



## Glaliraha

Who can forget the tenor and soprano saxophones in Ravel's *Bolero*? Those melodies are very erotic, weaving up and down and around, and the saxes are the best at bringing out this very sexual element of the piece (and the brass, but that comes... later ).


----------



## Scrythe

The Old Castle from Mussorgky's Pictures at an Exhibition is an Alto Sax solo.

William Henry Fry's Santa Claus Symphony from 1853 has a soprano sax solo in the middle.


----------



## norman bates

a saxophone concerto by kalevi aho (the quality is terrible)


----------



## Listener

The Villa Lobos concerto is the only work I can think of for saxophone that I like.


----------



## SuperTonic

Scrythe said:


> The Old Castle from Mussorgky's Pictures at an Exhibition is an Alto Sax solo.
> 
> William Henry Fry's Santa Claus Symphony from 1853 has a soprano sax solo in the middle.


Are you referring to the Ravel orchestration of Pictures? I wasn't aware he included a sax.
Its certainly possible though, he used it in other compositions.


----------



## Scrythe

SuperTonic said:


> Are you referring to the Ravel orchestration of Pictures? I wasn't aware he included a sax.
> Its certainly possible though, he used it in other compositions.


Yes, the Ravel orchestration.


----------



## Ravellian

"The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady" by Charles Mingus is technically considered jazz, but I really don't see why. It contains relatively little improvisation, is 'orchestrated' like a classical piece, and uses non-electronic instruments. Anyway, I mention it because the sax is a very prominent instrument in this piece.

As far as pure classical goes, I'd highly recommend the Paul Creston sonata. I played it with a friend last semester.


----------



## norman bates

Ravellian said:


> "The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady" by Charles Mingus is technically considered jazz, but I really don't see why. It contains relatively little improvisation, is 'orchestrated' like a classical piece, and uses non-electronic instruments. Anyway, I mention it because the sax is a very prominent instrument in this piece.


we can consider it as an example of third stream


----------



## JoeGreen

Andre said:


> ... (I have read) guys like Wagner & *R. Strauss* thought that it was "vulgar" and for the plebs, not for the elites who went to see their operas...


HUH?

Well, he must've changed his mind later on ...

_Sinfonia Domestica_ anyone?


----------



## Manxfeeder

I like the original version of Rhapsody in Blue with its syrupy sax part (recorded by Michael Tilson-Thomas). 

More obscure is Ned Rorem's Lions - A Dream, which features a saxophone leading a "jazz combo" (but no improvisation - rats!) alongside an orchestra.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Argus said:


> The sax is infinitely cooler than all the other woodwind instruments combined.


Preach it, Bro.! What other non-electric jazz instrument gets so many sounds? Compare Paul Desmond to David Sanborn, and it doesn't even sound like the same horn. And all those harmonics; Pharoah Sanders couldn't do what he did on anything else. Saxophones can blend with flutes and clarinets (really; you cover the reed with your lower lip), then keep up with the brass in volume and brightness (when you put less of your lip on the reed). So maybe the strange overtones of a sax make them stick out in an orchestra. Sax players do all right without those guys in tails who wave their little white sticks.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Britten uses the saxophone to moving effect in _Billy Budd_.


----------



## Falstaft

Sax is pretty pervasive in Philip Glass's music. Hard to imagine those crowds rushing by in Koyaanisqatsi without those wicked saxophone licks. I think it really works in his _Concerto for Sax Quartet and Orchestra_.

Here's the last movement in full garb: 




And just for saxes:


----------



## hpowders

Too lazy to look back and check, but for me the greatest classical saxophone solo occurs in Ravel's orchestration of Mussorgsky's Pictures of an Exhibition.

So perfectly right! Supporting evidence that Ravel was the greatest orchestrator ever!!


----------



## elgar's ghost

Zemlinsky used it to good effect by evoking a faint whiff of decadence in the Tong's Teahouse scene from the opera Der Kreidekreis.


----------



## QuietGuy

There are saxophone parts in An American in Paris and in Bolero. More recently, John Adams wrote a Saxophone Concerto, not that I've heard it, I've only heard of it.

I can't say I'm especially fond of the timbre. It sounds fine in jazz combos, but not in connection with classical music. Boots Randolph "Yakety Sax" style (remember Benny Hill!) sounds great for comic effect.


----------



## 20centrfuge

Prokofiev uses saxophone in Romeo and Juliet and it is brilliant. When you think about it the saxophone is the perfect complement to the WW section - it is the alto voice! Right now the clarinets and bassoons fill that voice by playing in the extremes of register.


----------



## Woodduck

Wagner did not like the saxophone.

He said it sounds like the word _Reckankreuzungsklankwerkzeuge._


----------



## Selby

Charles Koechlin
15 Etudes for Saxophone & Piano, Op. 188 (1943)

Federico Mondelci, alto saxophone
Kathryn Stott, piano

I. Pour les traits rapides (0:12)
II. Pour les sons lies et le charme de la sonorite (1:39)
III. Pour les arpeges (5:17)
IV. Pour la douceur des attaques (7:10)
V. Pour le charme du son dans un mouvement vif (9:59)
VI. Pour le style soutenu et doux en sons lies (12:22)
VII. Pour les sons lies et le charme de la sonorite (15:27)
VIII. Pour les notes en staccato et le melange de legato et staccato (19:16)
IX. Pour la longeur de la respiration et l'egalite du son (22:50)
X. Pour la qualite du son dans un style soutenu et pour les nuances (25:12)
XI. Pour la solidite du rythme (28:08)
XII. Pour l'egalite du son et pour les nuances (29:11)
XIII. Pour la legerete du son (36:08)
XIV. Pour une sonorite soutenue et expressive, pour la douceur du grave et de l'aigue (38:27)
XV. Pour les accents qui doivent donner le rythme de la phrase (41:20)

"
These compositions and performances are equally a welcome addition to an existing music library and superb introduction to classical saxophone music.

Charles Koechlin (1867-1950) was a French composer of myriad styles of composition (solo instrumental, sonata, smaller ensembles, symphonies, orchestrations of other composer's music, ...) and the author of seminal works on harmony, counterpoint, and orchestration. Incredibly, most of his music wasn't even published during his lifetime!

The 15 Etudes for Saxophone and Piano were written in 1942-3. They are much more than "etudes" (often, music written to increasingly challenge the player - wind, string, piano pieces demanding difficult fingering, intonation, dynamics, phrasing, etc.). These pieces do, of course, require masterful technique - but the "etude" Koechlin is offering (as per his playing instructions for each study) is "smooth joining of notes", "enchanting tone", "lightness of tone", ...

I have heard other performances of Koechlin's Etudes (no names ...) that I thought were wonderful - until I heard Federico Mondelci. To be fair, I still enjoy the other performances (even created some YouTube videos juxtaposing 3 different musicians), but Mr. Mondelci's is, I think, the most fully realized. The others (perhaps because of their "school" of playing) play the pieces in a monotone style, lacking the dynamics, expressive tonality, and phrasing of Mr. Mondelci's performance.

Charles Koechlin wrote the Etudes for Saxophone and PIANO, and here's where Kathryn Stott's contribution is magnificent - unlike the other pianists (again, no names ...), her performance is clear and standalone - the ensemble playing of Mr. Mondelci and Ms. Stott gives us the piece of music that Charles Koechlin wrote.

Jazz musicians and fans should also give this a listening to ... after all, Charlie Parker was often seen carrying Bartok recordings, and clearly, many jazz pianists are familiar with Satie.
"

Complete on youtube:


----------



## GreenMamba

Michael Nyman's Where the Bee Dances is for soprano sax and orchestra.


----------



## schigolch

_La bocca, i piedi, il suono, _written by Salvatore Sciarrino for saxophone quartet, and at least 100 more saxophonists.


----------



## tortkis

This is a good collection of classical saxophone works. I especially like saxophone quartets.

Le Saxophone Français (Angel/EMI)
Jean-Marie Londeix, Marcel Mule, Quatuor de saxophones Deffayet








Sauguet: Sonate Bucolique
Absil: Sonate Op. 115
Creston: Sonate Op. 19
Jolivet: Fantaisie-impromptu
Charpentier: Gavambodi 2
Koechlin: Epitaph de Jean Harlow
Tomasi: Printemps
Nin: Le Chant de Veilleur
Villa-Lobos: Sextour Mystique
Pierné: Introduction et variations
Desenclos: Quartet
Rivier: Grave et Presto
Schmitt: Quartet Op.102
Dubois: Quartet
Fracsaix: Petit Quatuor
Vellones: Valse chromatique
Vellones: Cavaliers andalous
Vellones: Le dauphins
Hindemith: Sonate
Beck: Nocturne
Denisov: Sonate
Noda: Improvisation
Debussy: Rhapsodie
Ibert: Concertino da camera
Pierné: Canzonetta
Forêt: Patres
Kreisler: La precieuse
Kreisler: Schoen Rosmarin
Gabriel-Marie: La Cinquantaine
Rimsky-Korsakov: Chanson hindoue
Dvorák: Humoresque
Combelle: Variations sur Marlborough


----------



## Alfacharger

Danny Elfman's "Serenada Schizophrana" featues the sax in some of its movements.


----------



## elgar's ghost

Two works I'm fond of by Hindemith which COULD include saxophone:

Trio for Viola, Heckelphone and Piano (1928). Due the relative scarcity of the heckelphone when used as a solo instrument a tenor sax is used instead.
Sonata for Alto Horn and Piano (1943). A French horn or alto saxophone can be used in its place.


----------



## Albert7

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Hooray for Russians using saxophone!! (i.e. Glazunov, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Kabalevsky)
> 
> Just to throw another name out there... Bernhard Heiden's Saxophone Sonata (1937). My best friend who is a saxophonist is learning it.


Those Russian were brilliant, weren't they?  I really dig that quite a bit.

Too bad no Morton Feldman pieces featuring saxophone however.


----------



## Hmmbug

How about the Narong Prangcharoen concerto for Sop/Alto saxophone?

(It has near the end a cadenza where both are played at the same time.)


----------



## Orfeo

*Glazunov's *Saxophone Concerto and his Quartet for Saxophones are pretty neat (the latter not nearly as recorded as the Concerto, but I'm quite fond with them both). Around that time, Glazunov admired Jazz, and the Quartet shows some influence of the genre as it was emerging as its own by then.

*Other (obscure) examples*:

*Tubin's* Sixth Symphony (nice, edgy saxophone writing in the middle movement).
*Adolfs Skulte's * Fifth Symphony (chilling and searching in the slow movement).
*Janis Ivanovs' * Fourth Symphony "Atlantis" (with an eerie, prophetic pronunciation as the first movement comes to a close).
*Allan Pettersson's *Sixteenth Symphony (virtuosic and not so gloomy as in some of his works)


----------

