# Favorite Immolation Performers



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't think we've done this before. Who does your favorite Immolation scene? Two of my favorites only did it in recital. Others were well known for singing Bruinhilde onstage. My favorite is from a Wagner recital by Jessye Norman at her prime ( not her live on TV version from Seattle late in her career when she faked all the high notes). Second: Flagstad. Third: Varnay from 53, 4th Traubel. 5. Farrell live and 6. Nilsson. 7. Jones on her DVD from Bayreuth... electrifying. Did I say it might be my favorite opera scene of all. Tell me what you like. Norman's voice is so enormous, pulsating, passionate and beautiful and it might be my favorite thing she ever did, even though she would not be right for a whole role as Bruinhilde.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I do miss my favourite in the choices : Eileen Farrel. ( As I recall recorded 4 times)
I do have two, one with Bernstein very good, however the best for me :

​This one with; Munch stands above all others :tiphat:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The best immolation scene imo is sung by Denersch with Karajan and the BPO in full cry.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Pugg said:


> I do miss my favourite in the choices : Eileen Farrel. ( As I recall recorded 4 times)
> I do have two, one with Bernstein very good, however the best for me :
> 
> ​This one with; Munch stands above all others :tiphat:


I almost did 7 with her in the poll. I have heard Farrell sing it, but I don't think I've heard that particular one. I will check it out on Youtube while driving today, for sure!!! I listened to a radio interview with Farrell and the Immolation Scene was one of her very favorite pieces to perform, according to her. She sure had a very nasal New York borough accent!!!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Frida Leider
Marjorie Lawrence
and
Helga Dernesch with Karajan.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Pugg said:


> I do miss my favourite in the choices : Eileen Farrel. ( As I recall recorded 4 times)
> I do have two, one with Bernstein very good, however the best for me :
> 
> ​This one with; Munch stands above all others :tiphat:


Can't find a CD version of that (only vinyl) but they do have a nice youtube audio from live Munch performance right before album recording.......very nice Pugg

Munch not normally thought of as Wagner conductor, but in general he is very dramatic in showcase orchestral works, the recital versions have the advantage of fresh rested voice vs a live Brunnhilde who has just sung entire Gotterdammerung opera


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Can't find a CD version of that (only vinyl) but they do have a nice youtube audio from that album to hear.......very nice Pugg
> 
> Munch not normally thought of as Wagner conductor, but in general he is very dramatic in showcase orchestral works, the recital studio versions have the advantage of fresh rested voice vs a live Brunnhilde who has just sung entire Gotterdammerung opera


Look at this: 
http://www.tower.com/wagner-tannhuser-valkyrie-tristan-isolde-gtterdmmerung-cd/wapi/106084812
:tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Pugg said:


> I do miss my favourite in the choices : Eileen Farrel. ( As I recall recorded 4 times)
> I do have two, one with Bernstein very good, however the best for me :
> 
> ​This one with; Munch stands above all others :tiphat:


I grew up with her version with Bernstein on an LP, and on the other side they did the _Wesendonck__ Songs_ beautifully. A pity Farrell never sang Isolde or Brunnhilde in the opera house, with her rich Traubel-like voice.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I grew up with her version with Bernstein on an LP, and on the other side they did the _Wesendonck__ Songs_ beautifully. A pity Farrell never sang Isolde or Brunnhilde in the opera house, with her rich Traubel-like voice.


I have that one on CD to, Sony had once a series with pictures off H.R.H Charles .
( as is says in the booklet)
Also wonderful bit the Munch is a slightly more sensitive.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Frida Leider
> Marjorie Lawrence
> and
> Helga Dernesch with Karajan.


I had never heard Dernesch clumped with the great Wagnerians so I never gave her a chance. I'll check it out.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Pugg said:


> Look at this:
> http://www.tower.com/wagner-tannhuser-valkyrie-tristan-isolde-gtterdmmerung-cd/wapi/106084812
> :tiphat:


Amazon USA has that used for $6, it is on its way to me today......


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Amazon USA has that used for $6, it is on its way to me today......


All's Well That Ends Well :cheers:


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

Re: Farrell--I have a recorded concert from 1951 by the NY Philharmonic, Victor de Sabata conducting, with Ms. Farrell as the featured soloist. The full program has the Meistersinger Prelude, the Tristan Prelude and Liebestod (w/Ms. Farrell), the Prelude and Good Friday Music from Parsifal, and the Immolation Scene which I've re-ordered and put at the end. Sound is serviceable but not spectacular--I haven't done anything rad with the equalization. If anyone is interested the download link to the zipped mp3s is:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSTmZZazFEZTFRTFE


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I don't really consider anyone but Nilsson and Flagstad to be in the running for this. Traubel and Leider are passionless and dramatically inert. Varnay scoops and Jones wobbles. Dernesch doesn't rate for me--her voice is too thin and small, especially her bottom which is barely there.

Between Nilsson and Flagstad, I prefer Nilsson--Flagstad has a more beautiful voice but Nilsson expresses more.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Makvala Kasrashvili singing Joan of Arc in Tchaikovsky's _Maid of Orleans_.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

*My choice is Astrid Varnay* have just spent the last 1-2 years going through all the 1950s Rings in great detail, my admiration and respect for her talents as Brunnhilde have only grown greater. Tonally I love her voice with a rich warm earthly low voice that can still soar like an eagle above the orchestra, for me she is the most tonally expressive and varied in developing a vivid vocal characterization of Brunhilde.......*passionate lover -> vengeful victim -> enlightened martyr

*She was fortunate to have her prime vocal years at Bayreuth (many recordings) with such a talented cast of other iconic singers, especially Hans Hotter in his prime what a magnificent unforgettable pair they made......


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

howlingfantods said:


> I don't really consider anyone but Nilsson and Flagstad to be in the running for this. Traubel and Leider are passionless and dramatically inert. Varnay scoops and Jones wobbles. Dernesch doesn't rate for me--her voice is too thin and small, especially her bottom which is barely there.
> 
> Between Nilsson and Flagstad, I prefer Nilsson--Flagstad has a more beautiful voice but Nilsson expresses more.


Funny how we hear people differently. Passionless and dramatically inert are the last words I'd use for Leider, who was renowned for her passionate acting, and I think it comes across in her recordings, though you can hear it more in live recordings than within the constraints of studio conditions at the time.

As for Dernesch, she later became a mezzo. The middle and bottom of her register are the richest parts, so we obviously hear her differently too.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> Funny how we hear people differently. Passionless and dramatically inert are the last words I'd use for Leider, who was renowned for her passionate acting, and I think it comes across in her recordings, though you can hear it more in live recordings than within the constraints of studio conditions at the time.
> 
> As for Dernesch, she later became a mezzo. The middle and bottom of her register are the richest parts, so we obviously hear her differently too.


It's possible I've just heard a bad Leider recording. I don't really collect many recitals since I tend to only listen to complete operas and my recital recordings gather dust, but the one Leider Immolation scene I've heard was quite dull.

I am aware that Dernesch started and ended a mezzo, but I don't really hear much of a bottom on the Karajan Immolation scene, either in the studio recording or the Salzburg recordings. Her bottom is barely audible in her Tristan too. She's better in Tannhauser, a more lyrical role that suits her better, and where she doesn't have to compete with the thick orchestration of Gotterdammerung or Tristan.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Is this what's known as a burning question? 

...I'll get my coat...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> It's possible I've just heard a bad Leider recording. I don't really collect many recitals since I tend to only listen to complete operas and my recital recordings gather dust, but the one Leider Immolation scene I've heard was quite dull.
> 
> I am aware that Dernesch started and ended a mezzo, but I don't really hear much of a bottom on the Karajan Immolation scene, either in the studio recording or the Salzburg recordings. Her bottom is barely audible in her Tristan too. She's better in Tannhauser, a more lyrical role that suits her better, and where she doesn't have to compete with the thick orchestration of Gotterdammerung or Tristan.


I just want to echo what Greg said about Frida Leider's recordings. Her studio work doesn't always do her justice. Aside from the inevitable flattening out of her timbral brilliance and richness inflicted by recordings of that era (ca. 1930) , tempos are often rushed (the 78 rpm side length problem, I think), and I suspect she found the constraints of the recording process irksome, or at least uninspiring. Live excerpts from her Brunnhilde and Isolde reveal her true temperament; her studio and live Liebestods are like night and day, and this one that was caught (however dimly) at the Met in 1933 is probably my favorite performance by anyone.






I do like her Immolation Scene, and feel that anything it lacks is due to the breathlessly hurried conducting and dim orchestral sound. From all reports, and what few live recorded bits we have, she was a passionate performer in the opera house. And the sheer consistency of her vocal emission, along with her firm legato line, is something I haven't heard in Wagner lately.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I like Jones.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I just want to echo what Greg said about Frida Leider's recordings. Her studio work doesn't always do her justice. Aside from the inevitable flattening out of her timbral brilliance and richness inflicted by recordings of that era (ca. 1930) , tempos are often rushed (the 78 rpm side length problem, I think), and I suspect she found the constraints of the recording irksome, or at least uninspiring. Live excerpts from her Brunnhilde and Isolde reveal her true temperament; her studio and live Liebestods are like night and day, and this one that was caught (however dimly) at the Met in 1933 is probably my favorite performance by anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, that is really lovely. The sound is dim but it's certainly far better than what I'd heard before.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

DarkAngel said:


> *My choice is Astrid Varnay* have just spent the last 1-2 years going through all the 1950s Rings in great detail, my admiration and respect for her talents as Brunnhilde have only grown greater. Tonally I love her voice with a rich warm earthly low voice that can still soar like an eagle above the orchestra, for me she is the most tonally expressive and varied in developing a vivid vocal characterization of Brunhilde.......*passionate lover -> vengeful victim -> enlightened martyr
> 
> *She was fortunate to have her prime vocal years at Bayreuth (many recordings) with such a talented cast of other iconic singers, especially Hans Hotter in his prime what a magnificent unforgettable pair they made......


My library had this and it blew me AWAY. My favorite bit is actually the first act duet with Siegfried. Her voice is exactly as you describe it and surely it must have been comparable to Nilsson's in size but richer down low. She is the only person to better Nilsson as Elektra... and that is saying A LOT! Did you know that at Bayreuth when they were both young in the 50's ( they are the same age) they were always being mistaken for one another


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Couchie said:


> I like Jones.


I could be ignorant, but I don't think you could find a more thrilling video recording of this than Jones. She had it all: she was really gorgeous on stage, she was one of the greatest actresses ever to sing opera, and she was still young and the voice was in great shape. She also had a monumental voice. I heard her live from backstage at Bayreuth as Kundry before I was old enough to know what I was hearing. Being backstage I never got to hear the full thrust of her voice in the house. A couple of bits of trivia on Jones: if you watch her early Verdi videos she could have been one of the greatest Verdi sopranos of ALL TIME. The voice was simply gorgeous back then. There is a video of her rehersing a role on Youtube and she marks the whole rehersal singing the role in the tenor range.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Three of the greatest Brunnhildes ever to lead us through the emotional transitions of Gotterdammerung and make the final sacrifice to end the reign of the gods in the cleansing flames........


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> I like Jones.


An excellent actress, but if I don't watch her I don't find her vocally competitive with the likes of Leider, Flagstad, Traubel, Farrell, or Nilsson. I hear the Jones wobble struggling to be born.

Chereau's Gotterdammerung looks like a tenement fire in Chicago. They were lucky to be able to put it out before it became even slightly impressive.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

I vote for Varnay in the 1951 performance under Knappertsbusch. A superb singing-actress who knows how to use the words. It is true that her voice lacks the "ringing" in upper register, but it is warm in the middle. Last but not least, her timbre has an "edgy" quality (similar to those of Callas and Eleanor Steber) that makes her phrasings penetrate.






Then come Leider, Lawrence and Flagstad.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

silentio said:


> I vote for *Varnay in the 1951 performance under Knappertsbusch*. A superb singing-actress who knows how to use the words. It is true that her voice lacks the "ringing" in upper register, but it is warm in the middle. Last but not least, her timbre has an "edgy" quality (similar to those of Callas and Eleanor Steber) that makes her phrasings penetrate.


Essential for any serious wagner collection, for sure.........historic re-opening of "New Bayreuth"


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I ordered this one:

_
_

1 Die Meistersinger von NÃ1/4rnberg, opera, WWV 96: Prelude Act I
2. Tristan und Isolde, opera, WWV 90: Prelude Act I
3. Tristan und Isolde, opera, WWV 90: Morte di Isotta
4. Die GÃ¶tterdÃ¤mmerung (Twilight of the Gods), opera, WWV 86d: Olocausto di Brunilde
5. Parsifal, opera, WWV 111: Prelude to Act I
6. Parsifal, opera, WWV 111: Incantesimo del Venerdì santo

Look at this review,

_Farrell and De Sabata's "Immolation Scene" from 1951 tops all others._
By Andre Gauthier on October 1, 2014
I've had this on the Hunt label for over 20 years, but am glad to now have it on Urania - the sound is greatly improved. It became my favorite upon its first hearing all those years ago and my opinion about it remains the same. Farrell, who according to Nilsson was her favorite Wagnerian soprano as stated in a radio interview, sings with more passion in this most famous scene from "Götterdämmerung" than any other soprano I can find. I decided to listen over a number of days to all the artists I had on CD doing this music. Some of the best are obviously Flagstad, Nilsson, Varnay, Mödl, Braun, Dernesch, Austral, Traubel, Leider and Gadski (Gadski was from the acoustic recording era!). I like Marilyn Horne because she took on this scene in her early days though she would never approach the full roll - as always, she is quite good. There are many current singers, but I've found none from this time in space who compare to those previously listed. They give everything, but the emphasis on looks in today's opera world simply deletes the usually buxom "helden-soprano", if I may use that term.

A few examples: Nilsson in a broadcast with Stokowski from Philidelphia in 1962 (concert version) is literally flawless while Stoki outdoes himself. Yet there is a coolness to Nilsson's singing that I can't shake - she doesn't do that in staged performances. I listened to several versions by Flagstad ranging from '39 to the early '50s; on these occasions her voice is revealed as possibly the greatest Wagnerian soprano ever, but her concert versions seem devoid of that last ounce of drama. Traubel's warm though short topped singing with several conductors is excellent, but she is hampered by her conductors. Gadski the oldest of the group gives us a taste of Wagner from the 19th century, but only in smaller chunks. All of the singers who tackle the "Immolation Scene" on record are worth hearing just into the era of CD.

Farrell had "only" to sing the "Liebestod" before the final Scene from "Götterdämmerung" that evening, and is therefore able to put her entire spirit into both excerpts and does she ever. De Sabata had warmed up the NYPO with a brilliant overture to "Tristan" - a rare and warm reading that you're unlikely to hear imitated in our time. In the scenes with Farrell he gives as exciting a performance as any conductor. By comparison Toscanini sounds rather on autopilot and he also adds an extra trumpet or two, a fact that is well documented. This spoiled the balance for all concerned, including Mme. Traubel. What a shame. Side by side, De Sabata is a cyclone, Toscanini a minor gale force wind. The lesser known Italian also takes Fürtwangler head on in the huge climax that marks the "immolation" of Walhalla and its gods.

Every selection from this broadcast is by Wagner and De Sabata conducts in the old tradition of "moving along"; he is never self indulgent. For my money Farrell still surpasses everyone else, even if only on this one evening in 1951. Surpass them she did, though, and at that moment Farrell and De Sabata transformed Wagner's words and music into great MUSIC DRAMA - the Wagnerian ideal.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

^^^^ Price for that CD is insane on Amazon USA, but Spotify premium has it for streaming 

Check the new purchase CD thread for additional Farrell purchase I made today......


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Price for that CD is insane on Amazon USA, but Spotify premium has it for streaming
> 
> Check the new purchase CD thread for additional Farrell purchase I made today......


I know, but it was for half that amount on a Dutch second hand site


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Found this one to on my shelf's .

Filled under Wagner instead of vocal recitals.

​


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Found this one to on my shelf's .
> 
> Filled under Wagner instead of vocal recitals.
> 
> ​


The Siegfried is stunning. She didn't always use chest voice but she did here and the effects were gorgeous. She is better than Nilsson here except for that final C.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I could be ignorant, but I don't think you could find a more thrilling video recording of this than Jones. She had it all: she was really gorgeous on stage, she was one of the greatest actresses ever to sing opera, and she was still young and the voice was in great shape. She also had a monumental voice. I heard her live from backstage at Bayreuth as Kundry before I was old enough to know what I was hearing. Being backstage I never got to hear the full thrust of her voice in the house. A couple of bits of trivia on Jones: if you watch her early Verdi videos she could have been one of the greatest Verdi sopranos of ALL TIME. The voice was simply gorgeous back then. There is a video of her rehersing a role on Youtube and she marks the whole rehersal singing the role in the tenor range.


The voice was enormous, I'll grant you, and she was certainly an exciting stage performer. I saw her in both *Salome* and *Tosca* at Covent Garden, and I'd say it was probably the biggest voice I ever heard there (admittedly I never heard Nilsson), but it was a recalcitrant instrument, solid as a rock one minute, flapping about all over the place the next.

My singing teacher, who knew her in her earlier days, when she was an appreciable Verdi singer, always thought she should have stuck to Verdi and the Italian repertoire.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I love Varnay with Kna '57. Vocally, my favorite Immolation. My favorite Immolation is Jones with Bayreuth in' 76. Boulez conducting is sensational and the Immolation Scene knocks ones socks off. '77 Boulez is almost as good.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

gellio said:


> I love Varnay with Kna '57. Vocally, my favorite Immolation. My favorite Immolation is Jones with Bayreuth in' 76. Boulez conducting is sensational and the Immolation Scene knocks ones socks off. '77 Boulez is almost as good.


Are you sure you aren't talking about the 51 Kna... Ring from Bayreuth? She was in prime vocal shape here and it was amazing. The first stereo Ring.


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## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

I will proffer a very dark horse (Nibelgrane?) coming in from left field








The T&I is the Act II duet with concert ending.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Are you sure you aren't talking about the 51 Kna... Ring from Bayreuth? She was in prime vocal shape here and it was amazing. The first stereo Ring.


Wasn't the first stereo Ring '55 Keilberth? No, I am talking about the Kna '57. I think it's her best.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

gellio said:


> Wasn't the first stereo Ring '55 Keilberth? No, I am talking about the Kna '57. I think it's her best.


She's probably talking about the first mono Bayreuth release, which was the 1951 Kna Gotterdammerung only, not the full Ring. I agree with Seattle that Varnay is probably at her best here comparatively--the voice sounds richer and although she is already scooping away to an distracting and irritating extent, it's not as bad as it would get later in the decade.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Handy collection of 15 famous live immolation scences spanning classic 50 Flagstad -> 76 Jones, as always buy on frequent sales at this website.......


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Handy collection of 15 famous live immolation scences spanning classic 50 Flagstad -> 76 Jones, as always buy on frequent sales at this website.......


Funny...They put Lillian Nordica on the cover. I guess they didn't want to favor any of the sopranos on the album. But it gives me an opportunity to recommend the 1903 Mapleson wax cylinders, made from offstage at the Met, of parts of Nordica's Brunnhilde as she performed it live in the house. The Mapleson cylinders were the first live recordings ever made of opera, and though they give us only distant and dim-sounding fragments, they are a precious legacy of turn-of-the-century singing.











The sound may be dim, but the power and purity of the voice come through. And listen to the trill in the Hojotoho! Who was the last Wagnerian soprano with a real trill? Anyone since Frida Leider?

Nordica was one of a number of outstanding dramatic sopranos singing the big Wagner parts in the pre-WW I period; others were Lilli Lehmann, Rosa Sucher, Katharina Klafsky, Milka Ternina, Therese Malten, Johanna Gadski, Félia Litvinne, Olive Fremstad, and Anna Bahr-Mildenburg. Even though their commercial recordings - you know, the kind where you stood with your face in a horn and were surrounded by a band consisting of a violin, clarinets and a tuba - constrained them musically and distorted the sounds of their voices, the technical prowess and the breadth of repertoire of these singers (those who made records) is astonishing today.

Another great Wagnerian soprano who should be mentioned here is Germaine Lubin, who, along with Frida Leider, was a celebrated Isolde and Brunnhilde at Bayreuth between the world wars. She had the misfortune of being admired by Hitler, and as with other artists who continued to perform in Germany during those years, it was held against her. Here's her Immolation Scene, in two parts:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I voted Varnay, but I like Jones too.:angel:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The sound may be dim, but the power and purity of the voice come through. And listen to the trill in the Hojotoho! Who was the last Wagnerian soprano with a real trill? Anyone since Frida Leider?


No recorded evidence of course, but I venture to suggest that Callas sang the trill when she played Brunnhilde in "Die Walkure".


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Flagstad wins for me


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> No recorded evidence of course, but I venture to suggest that Callas sang the trill when she played Brunnhilde in "Die Walkure".


Greg, is there any positive evidence at all that she sang this trill? Or just supposition?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Greg, is there any positive evidence at all that she sang this trill? Or just supposition?


Of course Callas would have sung the trill. There's one in the final scene of _Siegfried_ too, and she would have sung that one too, and flawlessly. Callas wasn't one to ignore such details.

Not mentioning her in my post above was merely an oversight, despite the fact that she quit being a "Wagnerian soprano" very soon after starting to be one (as did Sutherland even sooner, though I'm surprised that Sutherland didn't include the "Hojotoho" in her late Wagner recital). Based on the sound of Callas's voice and her choice of repertoire through most of her recorded career, one might not readily think of _hochdramatische_ repertoire in connection with her, but then she was nothing if not surprising.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Greg, is there any positive evidence at all that she sang this trill? Or just supposition?


It's just supposition of course, David, but, as Callas had a perfect trill in her armoury, it's safe to assume she observed the score and sang the trill.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> It's just supposition of course, David, but, as Callas had a perfect trill in her armoury, it's safe to assume she observed the score and sang the trill.


So no actual recorded evidence from those present?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> So no actual recorded evidence from those present?


Didn't we say that already? What's your point?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Didn't we say that already? What's your point?


What? You think there has to be a point?

Incurable optimist.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I'm very fond of the performances of many of the ladies mentioned in the thread. Just to mention one of my favorites, I'm going to link this youtube of the Austrian singer Gertrude Grob-Prandl:


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

schigolch said:


> I'm very fond of the performances of many of the ladies mentioned in the thread. Just to mention one of my favorites, I'm going to link this youtube of the Austrian singer Gertrude Grob-Prandl:


That Moralt Ring from 1949 that that clip is from is highly recommended. I think it's as good if not better than most of the Bayreuth cycles from the 50s. I'm not sure I'd put Grob-Prandl at the same peak as Nilsson and Flagstad but she is excellent throughout Siegfried and Gotterdammerung, the Walkure Brunnhilde having been sung by the somewhat less great Helena Braun.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

There is speculation that Grob Prandl may have had the biggest voice of any soprano. You listen to her 2 high C's on Robert Diable ( sp) by Meyerbeer or her Elektra and a good case is made. My word!!!! She is my favorite Leonora in Fidelio.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> What? You think there has to be a point?
> 
> Incurable optimist.


Sorry, but a historian takes thngs on evidence not supposition. I'm askng whether there are any contemporary reports - not unreasonable I would think.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Sorry, but a historian takes thngs on evidence not supposition. I'm askng whether there are any contemporary reports - not unreasonable I would think.


What is this, a court case? :lol: What was the point in your repeating the question when it had already been answered by two people? For the third time: we have no concrete evidence that Callas sang Brunnhilde's trills, but it's absolutely safe to assume that she did. Is there some reason to doubt this?

Even court cases may be determined on a "preponderance of the evidence" standard. We know that Callas had an excellent trill, and that where trills were written by composers in the music that she sang, she sang them. Can you think of any reason why she would not sing them in Brunnhilde's music? Can there be any _reasonable_ doubt that she did so? Can you think of any reason whatever why she'd leave them out? Is having a recording or sworn testimony that she did so important to your peace of mind? Isn't this whole discussion just a wee bit silly?

If you understood anything about Callas, you would know that she was committed to musical accuracy and respect for a composer's instructions, and would have seen those trills as a delightful challenge and an opportunity to exercise her bel canto skills. She would probably have known that many dramatic sopranos couldn't do a proper trill - very likely Serafin would have pointed that out even if she didn't already know it - and she would have enjoyed showing how the music should be sung. Again, if you have a different view, I'm all eyes.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

No *Hildegard Behrens* (Levine/MET)?
I for one can't forget that profound sense of resolve mixed with in with that vulnerable femininity. She has such a stage presence and her singing, while not the most powerful, is soulful.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Orfeo said:


> No *Hildegard Behrens* (Levine/MET)?
> I for one can't forget that profound sense of resolve mixed with in with that vulnerable femininity. She has such a stage presence and her singing, while not the most powerful, is soulful.


I grew to love her. Nilsson was a hard act to follow. She has a very emotional sounding voice and can sing with great beauty. Certainly she is a fine actress and looked great on stage. Bit of trivia: she was actually a fine Mozart singer and sang it often at the Met.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> What is this, a court case? :lol: What was the point in your repeating the question when it had already been answered by two people? *For the third time: we have no concrete evidence that Callas sang Brunnhilde's trills,* but it's absolutely safe to assume that she did. Is there some reason to doubt this?
> 
> Even court cases may be determined on a "preponderance of the evidence" standard. We know that Callas had an excellent trill, and that where trills were written by composers in the music that she sang, she sang them. Can you think of any reason why she would not sing them in Brunnhilde's music? Can there be any _reasonable_ doubt that she did so? Can you think of any reason whatever why she'd leave them out? Is having a recording or sworn testimony that she did so important to your peace of mind? Isn't this whole discussion just a wee bit silly?
> 
> If you understood anything about Callas, you would know that she was committed to musical accuracy and respect for a composer's instructions, and would have seen those trills as a delightful challenge and an opportunity to exercise her bel canto skills. She would probably have known that many dramatic sopranos couldn't do a proper trill - very likely Serafin would have pointed that out even if she didn't already know it - and she would have enjoyed showing how the music should be sung. Again, if you have a different view, I'm all eyes.


That is what I was after Woodduck, only it is for the first time. That is the question I was simply asking - whether there was any contemporary reports of Callas actually singing the trill. Thank you! I just can't see why you couldn't have said it in the first place. Just state the facts!
The problem with supposition is that the facts of history are sometimes different. For example, Culshaw says in Ring Resounding that Knappersbusch would have been horrified to cuts in the Ring but history now reveals through recording that he himself cut the forging scene in Siegfried on at least one occasion to accommodate an ageing tenor. So supposition and history don't always match up.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> That is what I was after Woodduck, only *it is for the first time*. That is the question I was simply asking - whether there was any contemporary reports of Callas actually singing the trill. Thank you! *I just can't see why you couldn't have said it in the first place. Just state the facts!*
> The problem with supposition is that the facts of history are sometimes different. For example, Culshaw says in Ring Resounding that Knappersbusch would have been horrified to cuts in the Ring but history now reveals through recording that he himself cut the forging scene in Siegfried on at least one occasion to accommodate an ageing tenor. So supposition and history don't always match up.


My initial response to your question was that Callas "_would_ have sung the trills." If I had had concrete proof that she did, I would have said so. The clear and only implication of the expression _"would have"_ is that I _didn't_ have such proof. So your question was answered. Greg then said "It's _just_ supposition, of course." The clear and only implication of the word _"just,"_ too, is that there is no concrete proof. So your question was answered for a second time by a second person.

Are implicit statements invalid in this court of law? Did your attorney command "Just answer with a yes or a no"? If so he needs to speak louder.

Your comparison with Knappertsbusch making a cut because a singer needed help is unhelpful. Is the implication that Callas might have omitted Brunnhilde's trills because she couldn't handle them? Can you suggest _any reason whatsoever_ why she would have omitted them?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> My initial response to your question was that Callas "_would_ have sung the trills." If I had had concrete proof that she did, I would have said so. The clear and only implication of the expression _"would have"_ is that I _didn't_ have such proof. So your question was answered. Greg then said "It's _just_ supposition, of course." The clear and only implication of the word _"just,"_ too, is that there is no concrete proof. So your question was answered for a second time by a second person.
> 
> Are implicit statements invalid in this court of law? Did your attorney command "Just answer with a yes or a no"? If so he needs to speak louder.
> 
> Your comparison with Knappertsbusch making a cut because a singer needed help is unhelpful. Is the implication that Callas might have omitted Brunnhilde's trills because she couldn't handle them? Can you suggest _any reason whatsoever_ why she would have omitted them?


I was not implying at all that Callas couldn't handle the trills. I just wanted the facts - whether there was any contemporary report of her doing so. Else all is speculation. (We're not in a court of law, btw, we're in a music forum). I was just interested to find out whether there were reports as to whether she actually had. A genuine question!


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> An excellent actress, but if I don't watch her I don't find her vocally competitive with the likes of Leider, Flagstad, Traubel, Farrell, or Nilsson. I hear the Jones wobble struggling to be born.
> 
> Chereau's Gotterdammerung looks like a tenement fire in Chicago. They were lucky to be able to put it out before it became even slightly impressive.


If you heard her on the Boulez '76 or '77 recordings you might think differently. The Boulez '77 just might be my new favorite.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

gellio said:


> If you heard her on the Boulez '76 or '77 recordings you might think differently. The Boulez '77 just might be my new favorite.


I like Jones more than many others do, but even in the mid 60s, her voice spread into an incipient wobble under force, and in less challenging roles than Brunnhilde. Lovely voice at lower amplitudes, but nowhere near competitive for greatest of all time.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> I like Jones more than many others do, but even in the mid 60s, her voice spread into an incipient wobble under force, and in less challenging roles than Brunnhilde. Lovely voice at lower amplitudes, but nowhere near competitive for greatest of all time.


First Varnay, now Jones...Goddessdammerung.

You are such a bad boy.

(I agree this time too).


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Would vote for Varnay (1955 or 1951) if I could.

If one of Flagstad's numerous immolation recordings I have heard from 1937 to 1950 was in better sound quality I would probably vote for her. Unfortunately the way it is it's comparing apples to oranges.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

interestedin said:


> Would vote for Varnay (1955 or 1951) if I could.
> 
> If one of Flagstad's numerous immolation recordings I have heard from 1937 to 1950 was in better sound quality I would probably vote for her. Unfortunately the way it is it's comparing apples to oranges.


Goodness. We're comparing singing, not audio quality. I could understand your point with regard to, say, the recordings of Leider and Lubin from the '20s and '30s, where poor orchestral sound and fast tempos (to accommodate the 78rpm side lengths) really compromise the artistic quality of the performance. But Flagstad's recordings, particularly the later ones, as well as radio transcriptions, give an excellent idea of her voice, nearly on a par with the '50s Varnay recordings from Bayreuth. Isn't it really more like comparing apples to slightly glossier apples?


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

interestedin said:


> Would vote for Varnay (1955 or 1951) if I could.
> 
> If one of Flagstad's numerous immolation recordings I have heard from 1937 to 1950 was in better sound quality I would probably vote for her. Unfortunately the way it is it's comparing apples to oranges.


The Furtwangler Scala Ring in the Pristine Classical remastering sounds almost as good as most of the mono 50's Varnay releases. Pricey, but very very very worth it.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Well 'Who does your favorite Immolation scene' and 'Who is your favorite Immolation performer' seem like two different questions to me and they both appear in this thread...



Woodduck said:


> Isn't it really more like comparing apples to slightly glossier apples?


That is true. But I had the impression that of Flagstad's immolation scenes only the 1956 from Oslo is really on par with Varnay's 1955 soundwise. And no one would argue that Flagstad was at her best there.. To a lesser extent this is true perhaps for Furtwängler 1952 or Sebastian 1952 (or one I haven't heard yet?).


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

howlingfantods said:


> The Furtwangler Scala Ring in the Pristine Classical remastering sounds almost as good as most of the mono 50's Varnay releases. Pricey, but very very very worth it.


I don't really think so. I didn't eat anything for days to save money for the Pristineclassical Scala Ring and even though there are some nice effects I think it sounds artificial, not as natural and detailed as several mono Varnays….


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

"Well ‘Who does your favorite Immolation scene‘ and ‘Who is your favorite Immolation performer‘ seem like two different questions to me and they both appear in this thread..."
My original intent was to include people like Norman and Farrell who never sang the full role on stage, but who I am mad for.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

[/B]She was fortunate to have her prime vocal years at Bayreuth (many recordings) with such a talented cast of other iconic singers, especially Hans Hotter in his prime what a magnificent unforgettable pair they made......

And just as importantly, she got to work with the some of the greatest Wagner conductors of all time. Knappertsbusch, Krauss, Keilberth etc


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Over the years my exposure to the Immolation scene has involved singers as disparate as Birgit Nilsson, Gwyneth Jones and Rita Hunter (live & recorded). As I have not listened to many of the others in the list, particularly those considered historic, I decided to make amends over the past few days and have listened to Astrid Varnay ('57 Kna), Helga Dernesch and Hidegard Behrens (Levine) as well as refreshing my memory of the others. Obviously there are many more to hear but there are only so many times that I can listen to it in a short period of time, so this is an investigation in progress. Of what I have heard, here are a few comments...

- Varnay - I can see why she has enthusiastic support but I can't claim to care much for the voice
- Behrens - I find her voice to be the most attractive even though she just does not have the vocal power, strength (not sure what word is best). Paradoxically she sounds the most like a young woman which, relatively speaking, Brunnhilde was.
- Hunter - It may be partly due to the English translation but she really communicates the essence of that scene. When she sang "now I see what must be done", I could really believe that she had just had the epiphany.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Becca said:


> Over the years my exposure to the Immolation scene has involved singers as disparate as Birgit Nilsson, Gwyneth Jones and Rita Hunter (live & recorded). As I have not listened to many of the others in the list, particularly those considered historic, I decided to make amends over the past few days and have listened to Astrid Varnay ('57 Kna), Helga Dernesch and Hidegard Behrens (Levine) as well as refreshing my memory of the others. Obviously there are many more to hear but there are only so many times that I can listen to it in a short period of time, so this is an investigation in progress. Of what I have heard, here are a few comments...
> 
> - Varnay - I can see why she has enthusiastic support but I can't claim to care much for the voice
> - Behrens - I find her voice to be the most attractive even though she just does not have the vocal power, strength (not sure what word is best). Paradoxically she sounds the most like a young woman which, relatively speaking, Brunnhilde was.
> - Hunter - It may be partly due to the English translation but she really communicates the essence of that scene. When she sang "now I see what must be done", I could really believe that she had just had the epiphany.


I completely forgot about Rita Hunter. When she was young she could sing anything. Great Norma. Her Bruinhilde was absolutely incredible and her high C in Siegfried was the best next to Nilsson. Her voice was absolutely seamless from bottom to top and filled the house effortlessly. She was a great singer with a really beautiful voice. It did not age well, likely due to her large size but when she recorded the Ring she was awesome!!!!!!!!!


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

One superb performance that has not yet been mentioned is that by Christa Ludwig. Beautifully rich in her lower register and absolutely no trouble up top. A magnificently sung version.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

After much listening and contemplation (and about a week too late), I have a 3 way tie, each for different reasons -
Gwyneth Jones, Hildegard Behrens and Rita Hunter


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Handy collection of 15 famous live immolation scences spanning classic 50 Flagstad -> 76 Jones, as always buy on frequent sales at this website.......


The title of this always makes me chuckle. I need to get that next sale.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

I may add *Germaine Lubin*, _en français_. What an immense singer she was. Her voice had the humongous volume that of Flagstad's and the velvet timbre that of Ponselle's. She might not act with the voice as much as Varnay or Modl did, but there was something very noble about her phrasing, I must use the word "classical dignity", as if she was performing Wagner in the same vein of Gluck and Berlioz:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Kirsten Flagstad live with the New York Philharmonic conducted by Bruno Walter at Carnegie Hall.

What glorious pipes!


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

I just noticed that there were some discussions about Leider's Immolation Scene.

I am a big fan of Leider, and indeed she has been becoming my most favorite _hochdramatische_ soprano. I did spend some time collecting her studio recordings, and rare live performances (purchased mostly from Frida Leider Society).

I must agree with howlingfantods that her commercial recording of Immolation Scene (which is sadly the only recording of her in this scene) under Leo Blech is dull, uninspired and unspecific. Even John Steane, her big admirer, admits that there is very little meaning in her presentation there (In contrast, Germaine Lubin's interpretation may sound "placid" to some people, but she cares for the text more).

Her early studio recordings are hit-and-miss: the German Trovatore excerpts are stylish and thrilling, but the Aida is a big yawn. The Wesendonck lieder are marvelous, but the Liebstod is just above average. (Even so, one can still be amazed at her precise coloratura and the Italianate, warm sound. Dare Flagstad, Traubel, Varnay, Nilsson dream of doing so?)

However, when it comes to live performances, it is another story. These Gotterdammerung from live perfomances under Furtwangler at Covent Garden reveal her true dramatic genius:


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Visually, Gwyneth Jones gave great immolation. You wanted to jump into the flames with her.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Bill H. said:


> Re: Farrell--I have a recorded concert from 1951 by the NY Philharmonic, Victor de Sabata conducting, with Ms. Farrell as the featured soloist. The full program has the Meistersinger Prelude, the Tristan Prelude and Liebestod (w/Ms. Farrell), the Prelude and Good Friday Music from Parsifal, and the Immolation Scene which I've re-ordered and put at the end. Sound is serviceable but not spectacular--I haven't done anything rad with the equalization. If anyone is interested the download link to the zipped mp3s is:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSTmZZazFEZTFRTFE


I have the LP and a good turntable and it sounds amazing.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Bill H. said:


> Re: Farrell--I have a recorded concert from 1951 by the NY Philharmonic, Victor de Sabata conducting, with Ms. Farrell as the featured soloist. The full program has the Meistersinger Prelude, the Tristan Prelude and Liebestod (w/Ms. Farrell), the Prelude and Good Friday Music from Parsifal, and the Immolation Scene which I've re-ordered and put at the end. Sound is serviceable but not spectacular--I haven't done anything rad with the equalization. If anyone is interested the download link to the zipped mp3s is:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSTmZZazFEZTFRTFE


Thanks (belatedly) for this Bill H!


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