# Petrushka vs Rite of Spring



## SacredBolero

Two great Stravinsky works from his early Russian period. Which is the greater work in your opinion? Feel free to comment on either, or both, the music or/and the ballet dance itself.
On my part, I’ve only seen the (reconstructed) choreographies of both by Vaslav Nijinsky. I’m not a particularly avid follower of ballets (indeed I know very little of its theory), but I do notice that Petrushka is much easier to follow. The Rite brilliantly depicts tension, but at times I’m just left beleaguered about what’s actually going on.
In terms of music though, I incline more to the Rite. It took longer for it to grow on me, but when it eventually did, it cemented itself quickly as a favourite. The rhythms, tonalities, effects all go together wonderfully to create a sensational masterpiece.
Petrushka, on the other hand, and just like the ballet, struck me easily from the first listening. In a sense, the Shrovetide Fair tableaus could be interpreted as glorified light music (a description in no way meant to degrade or insult their ingenuity). The middle two tableaus provided great contrast, although I found the second slightly difficult to follow in its purely musical form (it became much more digestible after I watched the ballet).
Those are my thoughts. In no way am I a seasoned musician or listener, and my comments are definitely not to be considered of much critical value. But I’m certainly interested to know the thoughts of other people regarding these two sparkling gems.


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## Larkenfield

Petrushka has a Russian charm that the Rite of Spring doesn’t have; but the Rite of Spring has a primordial energy that Petrushka doesn’t have and it rearranged the musical molecules of the 20th century.


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## arpeggio

In a best of seven game series I think Rite would win over Petruska and vice versa


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## david johnson

I enjoy both, of course. When I listen to Rite, I say 'wow'. As I listen to Petrushka, I say 'cool'.


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## flamencosketches

Le sacre wins for me. They're both good of course. But Le sacre features more of the color and "fire" that Stravinsky would become known for.


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## philoctetes

For me the Rite is about the only place I hear "fire" in Stravinsky. The rest, like someone said about Petrushka, is quite cool, even the Firebird. Bartok impresses me as the hotter composer of the two, avoiding Igor's neo-classicism.

That quote by Igor about Vivaldi makes me laugh because they were so much alike, very recognizable by their habits.


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## Zhdanov

david johnson said:


> When I listen to Rite, I say 'wow'. As I listen to Petrushka, I say 'cool'.





flamencosketches said:


> Le sacre features more of the color and "fire" that Stravinsky would become known for.





philoctetes said:


> the Rite is about the only place I hear "fire" in Stravinsky. The rest, like someone said about Petrushka, is quite cool


sure no, you people seem not getting the stuff at all, because of course it is Petrushka that is a lot more lively & full of passion. Le Sacre is in fact a very morose & gloomy piece that deals with a human sacrifice in the most cold way; and they dance like robots for a reason.


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## chill782002

The Rite for me although it's very close. Petrushka is great but the Rite is a landmark work that came out of nowhere. Literally nothing like it had been heard before. The Firebird is probably the most conventionally beautiful work that Stravinsky ever wrote although it's not even remotely close to the Rite in terms of its originality. The fact that he wrote all three in as many years while still in his late twenties is enduring testament to his greatness, even if I find some of the works he produced in the last twenty years of his life somewhat difficult.


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## Zhdanov

chill782002 said:


> the Rite is a landmark work


it was made to be such by the media & scholarship.



chill782002 said:


> that came out of nowhere.


nowhere? Rimsky-Korsakov & Debussy is where it comes from.


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## flamencosketches

Zhdanov said:


> sure no, you people seem not getting the stuff at all, because of course it is Petrushka that is a lot more lively & full of passion. Le Sacre is in fact a very morose & gloomy piece that deals with a human sacrifice in the most cold way; and they dance like robots for a reason.


Well that's just like, your opinion man 

I think it varies on the interpretation: some present the human sacrifice as an act of passionate communion, a true religious experience; while others indeed present it as a cold act of utter disconnection from humanity. I think it's such a genius work because it works in both ways. "The beauty of ambiguity" as Leonard Bernstein would say.



philoctetes said:


> For me the Rite is about the only place I hear "fire" in Stravinsky. The rest, like someone said about Petrushka, is quite cool, even the Firebird. Bartok impresses me as the hotter composer of the two, avoiding Igor's neo-classicism.
> 
> That quote by Igor about Vivaldi makes me laugh because they were so much alike, very recognizable by their habits.


I definitely hear "fire" in all three of the big ballets, as well as several of his neoclassical works, including the Symphony of Psalms. That doesn't mean he doesn't somehow manage to keep it cool and contained simultaneously.

I think the fact that we are all getting such vastly different impressions from Stravinsky's music is no less than a testament to his greatness.


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## Zhdanov

flamencosketches said:


> some present the human sacrifice as an act of passionate communion


this precursor to 20th century disasters with all its massive human sacrifice is?


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## flamencosketches

Zhdanov said:


> this precursor to 20th century disasters with all its massive human sacrifice is?


I would say yes, from the perspective of some of the perpetrators in question. I didn't say that made it OK :lol:


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## Zhdanov

flamencosketches said:


> I would say yes, from the perspective of some of the perpetrators in question.


that is, the USA?.. for it is there where Le Sacre is real big.


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## flamencosketches

When it comes to violence, I wouldn't think of it in such black and white terms as nation A vs nation B. But let's not get political. This is the Ballet forum.


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## philoctetes

Dancers should not step on each others' toes...


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## david johnson

Zhdanov: lol...speak for yourself regarding 'not getting it'. I am quite adept at listening, understanding, and performing.


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## starthrower

I don't know about other listeners but I approach these pieces as pure music because I'm listening on my home stereo. I don't think about pagan sacrifices, the violence of 20th century catastrophes, or even old Russia because I'm not familiar with their culture, traditions or folk music. I suppose like most classical music fans I love all three of Stravinsky's great ballet scores.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> I don't know about other listeners but I approach these pieces as pure music because I'm listening on my home stereo. I don't think about pagan sacrifices, the violence of 20th century catastrophes, or even old Russia because I'm not familiar with their culture, traditions or folk music. I suppose like most classical music fans I love all three of Stravinsky's great ballet scores.


Something we can all (or most of us) agree on :cheers:

Consensus seems to hold both Petrushka and Le Sacre as superior to the Firebird. Would anyone here disagree with that notion? Maybe it's telling that neither of the two later ballets are more popular in the form of an abridged suite... Personally, what I like about the Firebird is that its textures are somewhat more impressionistic (yet just as colorful) compared to the other two.


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## jegreenwood

starthrower said:


> I don't know about other listeners but I approach these pieces as pure music because I'm listening on my home stereo. I don't think about pagan sacrifices, the violence of 20th century catastrophes, or even old Russia because I'm not familiar with their culture, traditions or folk music. I suppose like most classical music fans I love all three of Stravinsky's great ballet scores.


I have not done any research, but it seems to me that "Firebird" is more frequently seen as a ballet than the other two, while the other two are heard more frequently in the concert hall. That would comport with my sense that while "Petrushka" and "Rite" are better as pure music, "Firebird" may be the best as ballet music.


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## philoctetes

mmm... never gave the Firebird as much attention as the other two myself. First of all came Petrushka when I heard it on the San Diego CM station way back in the late 70s. Went through one forgotten LP and then found the box set with all 3 ballets conducted by Igor. One night I was a bit high and fell in love with Igor's Rite and still haven't heard one I like better. About a year ago I posted a pic of a screensaver that looks like what my mind sees while hearing RoS, a bit like Disney but more primordial, pre-biological, seismic...

While the Rite makes an impression of chaos and upheaval, Petrushka touches my heart and actually makes me want to dance. So I neglect the Firebird a lot. Igor's Firebird, and his Petrushka for that matter, doesn't quite match his RoS. There is a Dorati recording on Mercury that is pretty good though. And MTT knocked me out in a live performance once. It could be that this piece is more elusive as it is more Debussy/Rimsky-ish or impressionistic, and Igor's famous propulsive rhythms are have not quite taken over yet. So it requires a bit more attention while listening, it doesn't quite reach out and grab like the other two. And like all of Igor's work, recordings are plentiful but good ones are hard to find.


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## TheGazzardian

Zhdanov said:


> Rimsky-Korsakov & Debussy is where it comes from.


As a big fan of the Rite, would sincerely love to know what works by Rimsky-Korsakov and Debussy you feel were the precursors ... so I can give them a spin


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## philoctetes

I also mentioned Rimsky and Debussy wrt The Firebird, having similar instrumental colors and orchestral dynamics. i don't hear as much of that in The Rite, but maybe a little in Petrushka, which seems like a transition to me as Igor was finding his voice. With the Rite there is more uniformity in dynamics, I mean, the word "rubato" is hardly applicable to these sewing-machine (see Igor on Vivaldi) rhythms and repetitive choruses. And I don't hear much of Russia in the Rite or anything after that by Igor, exc maybe Les Noces, but others may feel different.. Rimsky and Debussy never went quite that far as I recall.

PS this is a strange thought, but if looking for more music like The Rite one could check out Milhaud, Villa-Lobos, Varese, etc...


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## jegreenwood

and Prokofiev's Scythian Suite


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## philoctetes

When this CD was released, the Fanfare reviewer went absolutely berserk with hyperbole and Rite comparisons. It's an indisposable part of my collection.


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