# Blind Comparison - Debussy La Mer



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

As promised (to Becca) here's 4 recordings of Debussy's La Mer for you to enjoy. These are not my 4 favourite recordings of La Mer and a few are more obscure. All feature professional conductors and orchestras (I'm not trying to trick anyone here so join in)!

However, if you know the identity of these recordings please don't reveal conductors or orchestras but feel free to rank them in order from favourite to least favourite and maybe say what you thought of the recording, performance, etc or just make a quick observation of at least one performance you liked. This is an inclusive not exclusive game and a bit of fun.

In a while, I'll reveal all the recordings used and highlight any recordings that people particularly liked. In the interests of discovery (and fun) try not to cheat. You might find a recording by a performer you hadn't previously heard or rated. Here's the links.

A - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q4f8p2hobzw2kqq/AABNfRgSHiVA3DHV6a3yYP9sa?dl=0
B - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sh76csmk9djhcpt/AACd9QbsHJIXh34PBdfg4Ngva?dl=0
C - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/bweh5ejyy7m5xou/AABqAM4JE5sjeN_Pdo2eE4dta?dl=0
D - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hvbdqpleyvr4s09/AADUr3ioOrZX7QyY_ltikl-ka?dl=0


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Wow, thanks for doing this! I threw this out there as a suggestion for the future, but didn't expect to see it so soon I'll have plenty of time at work tomorrow to listen to all four, and will write up my comments tomorrow night.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I haven't listened to this work in a very long time but here are my initial comments after listening to part 1 of all 4 performances. 

A - Interesting!! Slower but I like it (so far)
B - Seems rather underpowered - live performance?
C - Not sure what to think about this one yet
D - Rather a traditional type of big orchestra sound. Currently(maybe) 2nd place

I'll give it a day or two before moving on to the other parts (only so much of it I can take in one afternoon!)


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Becca said:


> I haven't listened to this work in a very long time but here are my initial comments after listening to part 1 of all 4 performances.
> 
> A - Interesting!! Slower but I like it (so far)
> B - Seems rather underpowered - live performance?
> ...


A and B are both live.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

*Background on the composition -*

"*La mer* is scored for 2 flutes, piccolo, 2 oboes, cor anglais, 2 clarinets, 3 bassoons, contrabassoon, 4 horns, 3 trumpets, 2 cornets, 3 trombones, tuba, timpani, bass drum, cymbals, triangle, tam tam, glockenspiel, 2 harps and strings.

It is in three movements:

"De l'aube à midi sur la mer" - très lent - animez peu à peu (si mineur)

- "From dawn to noon on the sea" or "From dawn to midday on the sea" - very slow - animate little by little (B minor)

"Jeux de vagues" - allegro (dans un rythme très souple) - animé (do dièse mineur)

- "Play of the Waves" - allegro (with a very versatile rhythm) - animated (C sharp minor)

"Dialogue du vent et de la mer" - animé et tumultueux - cédez très légèrement (do dièse mineur)

- "Dialogue of the wind and the sea" or "Dialogue between wind and waves" - animated and tumultuous - ease up very slightly (C sharp minor)

Debussy called _La mer_ "three symphonic sketches," deliberately avoiding the term symphony. Simon Trezise, in his book Debussy: _La Mer_, comments, "He had not composed an orthodox symphony, but neither did he want La mer to be known as a symphonic poem ... [and by calling it] 'Three symphonic sketches' ... [Debussy] must have felt that he had deftly avoided association with either genre." Yet the work has sometimes been called a symphony, even on occasion, by Debussy himself.

It consists of two powerful outer movements framing a lighter, faster piece which acts as a type of scherzo. But the analyst Jean Barraqué describes _La mer_ as the first work to have an "open" form - a devenir sonore or "sonorous becoming... a developmental process in which the very notions of exposition and development coexist in an uninterrupted burst." Simon Trezise, in his 1994 book Debussy: _La Mer_ comments, "motifs are constantly propagated by derivation from earlier motifs".

Trezise writes that "for much of _La Mer_, Debussy spurns the more obvious devices associated with the sea, wind, and concomitant storm in favour of his own, highly individual vocabulary".

Caroline Potter, in The Cambridge Companion to Debussy, comments that Debussy's depiction of the sea "avoids monotony by using a multitude of water figurations that could be classified as musical onomatopoeia: they evoke the sensation of swaying movement of waves and suggest the pitter-patter of falling droplets of spray" (and so forth), and - significantly - avoid the arpeggiated triads used by Schubert and Wagner to evoke the movement of water.

Although some of Debussy's contemporaries drew analogies between _La mer_ and French Impressionist paintings - *much to the composer's irritation *- others have detected the influence of his admiration for the English painter J. M. W. Turner; and Debussy's choice of Hokusai's The Great Wave off Kanagawa for the cover of the printed score indicates the influence of Japanese art on him.

Despite Debussy's scorn for the term "impressionism" applied to his or anyone else's music - a matter on which he and Ravel were of the same firm opinion- the term was used by some of his most devoted admirers. His biographer Edward Lockspeiser called _La mer_ "the greatest example of an orchestral Impressionist work", and more recently in The Cambridge Companion to Debussy Nigel Simeone commented, "It does not seem unduly far-fetched to see a parallel in Monet's seascapes""

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_mer_(Debussy)


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

I have gone through A ans D. 

The music in A breathes with ease. It is very nicely played, very beautiful, even crystalline at times. The grand moments are grand, but the Waves lack a bit of playfulness. It sounds more like a calm sea than a wonder of nature.

D flows fluently with a good pulse. It could have been grander towards Noon. What impresses me the most is the Play of the Waves. It is alive, fun and inventive. The Dialogue is dramatic. The woodwinds in the middle sections are sublime.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Able to provide a ranking after having listened to each twice twelve hours apart. Time constraints prevent a more thorough review...

Each of the four were nothing less than examples of first-rate craftsmanship but A.) was elevated into artistry and scored highest when both the recording and performance scores were taken into account. 

Debussy is a personal favourite and my thanks to Merl for the execution and to Becca for the inspiration which led to this opportunity to revisit, listen, and review a composition that is both wonderfully evocative of place and transcendent of time and circumstances.

In order of preference - 

A.) Recording - 9; Performance - 9

D.) Recording - 9; Performance - 8

C.) Recording - 7; Performance - 7

B.) Recording - 6; Performance - 7

The composer is a personal favourite and thus I can find something of interest in each of the four versions offered here. 

A.) and D.) have been recorded/mastered with a clarity that is somewhat lacking in C.) and B.). The orchestral elements are clearly separated and cleanly heard. Well-balanced vibrant recordings with A.) getting a sllight edge over D.) as a result of a sharper and more pronounced sense of dynamics.

C.) and D.) are both somewhat lacking in separation and there is a blending of elements which obscures detail - they don't fair particularly well when compared and contrasted with either A.) or D.) but would be perfectly acceptable and thoroughly enjoyed if heard as standalone pieces. Both represent solid professional craftsmanship without quite nearing the level of true artistry.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Well, that certainly made for an interesting spell of listening! This is one of the few works that I have heard many versions of (at least seven that I can think of; which is odd, because it's not a particular favorite of mine, though one that I like a lot). What do I look for in a La Mer recording? One word- sensuousness. In this music, narrative and emotion is not very important; it's an Impressionist work. I want to feel the mist, hear the froth, experience the lurch, see the boiling waves, smell the spray. I want to be on the sea! To be honest, none of these performances did the complete trick for me- at times in all four, I just wanted to say to the conductor; "Lighten up! Don't cautiously steer the boat through the calms, thrust us headlong into the waves! Let loose, let us have the wild, unpredictable ocean; not the safe, idyllic fishpond." Nonetheless, there is something (however minute) to like in each. Let's dive in:

A: This reading starts off very nicely with some well-placed inflections. This is a beautiful-sounding band; the playing is tight-knit but deeply effective. The flow of the work is communicated fantastically with well-executed but not bombastic climaxes, nice husky woodwinds, and crystal-clear textures. More than in any other of these four, I feel like I am physically on the high seas. The execution seems to merge seamlessly into the vision, and Debussy's soundworld comes across as sounding unaffected and perfectly natural. Though I still think the playing lacks a bit of bite, this free-wheeling, red-blooded reading is far and away my favorite of the four. It reminds me of my current favorite recording of the work, but is a bit more safe. British orchestra?

B: "Underpowered" is a good way to describe how the first movement unfolds here. Though there are personal touches, the playing seems restrained in an effort to portray a delicate, breezy day instead of a rolling, wild cauldron. The emphasis seems to be on producing a dainty, evocative soundscape rather than a richly-colored impressionistic experience like A. This is evident from the first few moments where A's full-thrust interpretation reigns supreme over B's atmospheric meandering. But the performance seems to pick up confidence and commitment as it wears on. The second movement is fantastically done and treated like a scherzo. The third movement kept my attention throughout with its constant rise and fall of tension, and builds to a bracing final climax. Overall, I liked the playing but wasn't a fan of the general understatedness of the interpretation. French orchestra?

C: This strongly reminds me of a certain conductor who was known for his extreme emphasis on economy. No doubt, this reading is very straightforward. The score is followed faithfully, but the approach is perhaps too clinical. The dynamic and expressive range of this orchestra is wonderful, with a quicksilver second movement where the focus on precision really pays off. Throughout, the attacks are sharp and clean (even perhaps over-articulated), the textures crisply-delineated. The soundworld does not seem as integrated as A, nor as evocative as B. Instead, it seems sterile; superbly conducted and controlled but lacking the true Debussy spirit. The best thing it has going for it? The finale, which is tremendously captivating and even brash, and concludes in a final climax that truly blows your hair back. American orchestra?

D: Some great lush string sound going on here, with an overall blended texture that reminds me somewhat of A, but the interpretation is lightyears apart. While A emphasizes many lovely details in its convincing portrayal of the subject material, C seems to aim for a more homogeneous soundworld that has the effect of blunting some of the drama and smoothing over some of Debussy's luminous scoring. The big brass fanfares, the blows to the bass drum, the snarling, swirling strings all seem muted and underplayed in this performance. The textures seem unnecessarily heavy. To me, the interpretation lacks imagination and character, and though the conductor drives his orchestra confidently and coaxes some beautiful phrasing and playing, he avoids the thrills, joys, and terrors of the sea that the other 3 performances all communicated in their own unique way. Here, I don't feel like I am in contact with visceral La Mer- I feel like I am watching it from miles away through a pair of binoculars from a high cliff, wishing I could be closer to the action. German orchestra?

So there you have it. As you could probably guess, A takes my top spot even though I still don't consider it a complete representation of what can be done with this music. Full ranking from best to worst: A, B, C, D (though the middle two could easily be switched depending on what mood I'm in). Then again, maybe I just got La Mer'd out and lost interest by the time D rolled around. But I really do think it was a major disappointment after the other three flashed such interesting personality. 

I shall await the results with great excitement, and if I am incorrect in my assumptions of the national origin of the orchestras, well, let my stereotyping be darned


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^You have C twice ... I presume that you are referring to D in the second one?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Becca said:


> ^^You have C twice ... I presume that you are referring to D in the second one?


Ah yes; fixed now.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Interesting reviw ACB. I really enjoyed that. I'll give it a few more days at least till I spill the beans but I tend to agree with most of what you are saying about the performances but others probably won't feel the same. Be interesting to listen to other's thoughts.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

B
While I appreciate the beautiful calm sea of A, I’m unable to comprehend the dead sea of B. The playing (conducting rather?) seems very uncomfortable at times with the language of La Mer, making it sound a bit all over the place. The good thing is, it finally gets into the groove in the Dialogue with a decent amount of fluency and drama.

C
Lots of charismatic, idiomatic/idiosyncratic moments. Exciting, beautiful and a natural wonder at times. Should I call this bringing out the Debussy-ness in La Mer, or stamping the conductor’s presence all over it? Do I like it or do I not like it? I am not sure. It does not sound distracting or becoming something else, so at least I do not hate it.

To be absolutely honest, La Mer is hardly a favourite piece of mine. (Nocturnes and Jeux have got a lot more playing time on my rig.) This is still an interesting exercise though, so thanks Merl for setting this up. To intently listen to a variety of ways of playing the music is always interesting. ^_^

My preference: A,C,D > B. 

Overall D may be a whisker ahead; but at some places I find C the most charismatic while I also like the beauty in A.

No idea who the performers may be. Honestly I do not remember any La Mer performance from my collection, so cheating through timings and spectrograms would be too much work… :lol:


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

I'm no good at analysis and fail to translate what I hear to meaningful words, however having the time to listen for a change here is my preferred order:

C,
A,
D,
B.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Whilst I obviously know the artists involved this hasn't coloured my own judgement so I'll give you my brief thoughts (I don't want to give anything away) .

A - I really like this one. Everything unfolds naturally and logically. The sea feels real and moving. My personal favourite of the 4.
B - An overtly romantic impression of La Mer. Things are all a bit tranquil until the end, where the conductor finally goads the orchestra into action. Personally, I like this account but with a bit more 'choppiness' earlier on it could have been better. 
C - I find this one the most intriguing. As someone has already pointed out its a pretty straightforward reading but occupies a different soundworld than the others (I have to be careful what I say here). I didn't know what I thought of it on initial hearing but now I rather like it. Love the ending. 
D - This is the least attractive of the performances for me. It is frankly both too lush and heavy for me. Some of you might be thinking this lushness means it's Herbie but it isn't. Karajan was always poetic and beautiful in La Mer and always brought something new to his recordings, even if some of his La Mer recordings felt a little light . For me this account neither has Karajan and the BPO's beautiful string playing, feel for the beauty of the score or underpinning flow (something that I feel detract's from conductor D's Beethoven but not some of his other romantic symphony recordings). Hope I haven't given anything away there.

So for me it's A - C - B - D and I hope I've not given you any clues. I'll pop up the artists either tomorrow or Thursday. You may be surprised (btw all these recordings are by well-known conductors) . Two recordings even share the same orchestra!


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Merl, I'm going to give these a listen tonight, so please hold off for a day or so


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Merl, I'm going to give these a listen tonight, so please hold off for a day or so


Nps, Matt

............


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Merl said:


> Two recordings even share the same orchestra!


*What???* That's bonkers! I found all four of these orchestral sounds to be astronomically different. Now you have me champing at the bit to find out who it is!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

After listening to the rest...

A comes out way on top. Of the rest, C feels just too rushed. I can't come to any opinion between B (too lightweight) and D (not sufficiently lightweight?)

A > B or D > C


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *What???* That's bonkers! I found all four of these orchestral sounds to be astronomically different. Now you have me champing at the bit to find out who it is!


Oh and 3 of them are live recordings.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

After giving them a listen, my preference would be B, A, D, C

B has the qualities I like in both a recording and an interpretation. The tympani are well miked and can be picked out from among the mix. The overall texture is clear but not lacking any bass. I can pick out individual instruments but can still get swept up in the piece. The tempii are brisk but still allow emotion to build.

A is similar in reading to B but the mix seems mushier. 

D has a nice brisk tempo but the recording seems a bit recessed, like it was single or stereo miked from a distance in the orchestra hall.

C is like D, but even more so. Very bright and reedy, sounding distant, and the tympani gets lost in the mix.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

If no one else is having a go I'll post the answers in an hour.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Okay, here's recording A (a popular one). Its Jansons and the RCO live from 2008.









Recording B is Dudamel and the LAPO live from 2015.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Recording C (which divided opinion) was Roth and Les Siecles' HIP tteatment of Debussy from 2013.









And finally recording D was Van Beinum and the RCO (again) from the late 50s.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Oh man...I got none of my national origin of orchestra guesses right:lol: This blind comparison totally messes with expectations. Recording A confirmed my opinion of Jansons as a conductor who always provides reliable, intelligent, idiomatic readings of the score. No doubt, it is an excellent account, with the RCO in tip-top form. The one I was thinking this reminded me of was Stokowski/LSO '65, which is my current favorite La Mer. Nobody was as sensous in this music as Stoki. I thought of Boulez/Cleveland in B; I was surprised to find out that this underpowered but atmospheric reading was from Dudamel. C reminded me an awful lot of Reiner, but once again, stereotypes were busted to shreds. Never would have guessed HIP either...for me, that's just weird in music written a little over 110 years ago. And D, yes, I thought just _had_ to be Karajan. I had never heard anything from Van Beinum, so I don't know if this was a harbinger of his style; but I've had his Brahms on tap to check out and it's good to hear something from him beforehand. Wasn't a fan of how the RCO sounded like the BPO on its heaviest, sludgiest days in this one.

Anyway, another tremendously fun exercise! I think I may try my hand at running one of these sometime if I can figure out a good method/platform for uploads.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I'm a bit surprised at Roth/Les Siecles but he has done so much really good stuff that he is entitled to the occasional dud! Perhaps what made the difference was their use of the instruments of that period.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Something to give some thought to...

Reviews...

A.) "The magic of Jansons's conducting with the orchestra of which he is chief conductor could not be more compelling."
- Gramophone

"...Jansons has the courage to explore the darkness behind the Gallic sophistication. So the fierceness of the spray is almost palpable in Debussy's La Mer, and there is menace in the way Ravel's La Valse whirls towards its conclusion.
The Concertgebouw Orchestra has the subtlety of colouring to bring something of its own to the music, from the pastel-edged tints of its solo woodwind to the velvety warmth of its strings and the edge of its brass."
- The Daily Telegraph

B.) Dudamel - No significant reviews found...

C.) Roth and Les Siecles - "The performance...is very stylish and does the work proud...while Les Siècles have instruments of Debussy's time, the playing, in terms of vibrato and portamento, is much more recent in style."
- BBC Music Magazine

- "The transparency of sound from gut strings means the woodwind and brass soloists emerge as if naturally from the orchestral texture...This delightful music may not be mature, vintage Debussy, but is a welcome addition to the catalogue."
- The Sunday Times

"In La Mer, the husky sounds of gut-stringed violins ushering in Debussy’s dawn light immediately tickle the ears. But it’s the wind instruments, each proudly listed in the CD booklet with its date of manufacture, that give this performance its distinctive atmosphere — poignant and delicate, lit up with subtle colours seemingly beyond the instruments of today."
- The Times

D.) "Eduard van Beinum's stereo Debussy recordings have withstood all competition for nearly half a century, and they remain marvelously enjoyable. La Mer combines crystalline purity of expression with some highly distinctive touches, most notably the extraordinarily noble conclusion of the first movement and a really ferocious finale. 
- Classics Today

My choices were thus -

1.) A.) - Jansons

2.) D.) - van Beinum

3.) C.) - Roth

4.) B.) - Dudamel


All things considered, I can live with those choices quite happily...

Once again, my thanks to Merl for execution and Becca for inspiration - :tiphat:

Job well done, my friends, job well done!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

FWIW, had I done this comparison, the performances that I had in mind to choose from included Nagano/Gothenburg, Gergiev/LSO, Boulez/NYPO, Salonen/O.de Paris and Abbado/Lucerne F.O.

Allegro con Brio - If you want to do a blind comparison, please contact Merl and myself and we will arrange a short-term license at a (semi-)reasonable fee 

Next up - 6 versions of Ravel's _Bolero_ :lol: :lol:


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Becca said:


> Next up - 6 versions of Ravel's _Bolero_ :lol: :lol:


Oh no... Could be worse..... Pachelbel's Canon!!!

Incidentally, I did think of using Boulez and Salonen but I thought they might be guessed. I knew some miight think the Van Beinum was Karajan, due to the percepted style of performance but when I revisited a few of Karajan's La Mer recordings I was actually struck by how delicate they were (mostly) and nothing like VB's rather turgid (IMO) account. I admire some of VB's performances (eg his excellent Brahms) but find some other recordings of his vastly overrated or a homogenised soup (his Beethoven). Dudamel was a download that I have in the car at the moment (paired with an OK Stravinsky Firebird) so that's why I included that. I knew Roth would divide opinion (as you can see from its reviews). I thought it was pants on first hearing but it bears repeated listens well. It's just not a patch on Jansons, here. I left my preferred versions out which are Svetlanov, Markevitch, Tilson Thomas and Stoki.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

The surprise for me is Dudamel. His rallying stock has just fallen off a cliff I'm afraid.

Boléro would be good. Can't wait for the entertaining bashing from the haters. :lol: As long as I can hear the celeste and the harp I'm happy. Oh if the conductor doesn't make me notice any tempo change, that's even better. Seriously, how the conductor (and the engineer) blends the sound from different combinations of instruments will be very interesting.

BTW I just watched one of André Rieu's Boléro on youtude. Even though it's abridged to 6 mins, you can tell by the facial expressions of the audience this must be the all-time greatest performance of it. Hate to say I lasted only two mins, before I decided I should go listen to Gergiev's instead.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Kiki said:


> The surprise for me is Dudamel. His rallying stock has just fallen off a cliff I'm afraid.


Bit harsh, Kiki. Everyone's allowed a few duds. It was OK (IMO).


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Becca said:


> Next up - 6 versions of Ravel's _Bolero_ :lol: :lol:





Kiki said:


> Boléro would be good. *Seriously*, how the conductor (and the engineer) blends the sound from different combinations of instruments will be very interesting.


Exhibit A on why Becca's posts may need to be approved by a moderator before being posted...


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## Guillaume80 (Jan 19, 2020)

Veyr beautiful recordings


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Merl said:


> Bit harsh, Kiki. Everyone's allowed a few duds. It was OK (IMO).


A stock subject to rapid selling has a good chance of a quick rebound, now the market's plea must be for Becca to include a Dudamel Boléro in the next blind comparison to steer it to a rebound! And while we'll be focusing on Dudamel she could mix in a Rattle to create a bit more volatility in the market as well. 

Seriously, I am beginning to think he's the real deal recently, so I'm really disappointed to find out he's the conductor of B. Oh well, even Herbie created a few duds in the past, so why not him and others?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

How about doing Bolero from HvK, Dudamel, Rattle, Gergiev and Roth ... that should make for interesting commentary!!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Here is one for you... You can tell it's age just by looking at Mehta. What is truly scary is that I remember some of those musicians from when I was first going to L.A. Philharmonic concerts back in the dark ages - Anne Diener Giles on flute, Michele Zukofsky on clarinet (who only recently retired) etc.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Becca said:


> How about doing Bolero from HvK, Dudamel, Rattle, Gergiev and Roth ... that should make for interesting commentary!!


Good call, Becca! :lol: But that's only 5. We need one more to make 6. How about Celi?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Becca said:


> How about doing Bolero from HvK, Dudamel, Rattle, Gergiev and Roth ... that should make for interesting commentary!!


Jeez, I like a lot of Herbie recordings but his Boleros I could live without ever hearing again. As for Celi's Bolero, it's probably an hour long. The file would be too big for Dropbox or pcloud!


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Thanks so much to Merl and to everyone who's posted with reactions to the three performances of La Mer. This was great fun, and so informative! Looking forward to the next installment.

I listened to the first approximately 10 minutes of each recording. Now going to listen to all of them completely over the weekend. So I don't have anything well-informed to say about the performances (and wouldn't necessarily have even if I'd listened to them all the way through). Just some impressions after knowing the conductors/orchestras.

I personally love La Mer. When I was a teenager listening my way through the canon of German romantic orchestral music, La Mer as recorded by Munch/Boston SO in 1956 on Red Seal effectively transported me into my ever-since love affair with modern classical music. I have subsequently settled on the Reiner/Chicago SO 1960 Living Stereo recording (I have the marvelous SACD that also contains Respighi) as my definitive performance. When I lived in Montreal in 1989 I heard Dutoit conduct the Orchestre Symphonique de Montreal playing La Mer, and I sometimes like to listen to the Dutoit/Montreal 1989 recording of the work on Decca. Other than the occasional other performance I hear on the radio, these are my reference points for this work. I never heard any of the present case-study recordings before. To me, they seem pretty obscure -- but very interesting!

Becca's first reactions to the A through D performances seemed right on the mark when I read it, and her take seems to track with the majority of posters' reactions. I'm intrigued by C -- an HIP! I couldn't have guessed that in a million years, but it now makes sense and I'm looking forward to a few listens. I am not one to hate any conductor, but there are some whose work I really just don't enjoy, and Dudamel is one of these. However, I actually liked B quite well and have to agree with what MatthewWeflen wrote about it. I suppose it's wholesome that this will now lead me to open the door a crack for Dudamel, and I'm looking forward to some undistracted listens to B.

Bravo, friends. This was quite an experience.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

I nominate this as the sixth version of Bolero -

*Los Baron de Apocada, Ladies Bar *

It's a masterpiece from Northern Mexico - this eye-catching reprise has it all: an enraptured audience, a catchy dance routine, and cowgirls wearing "Daisy Dukes" with bikini tops.

This Boléro has become a mixture of conga and polka, with the jaunty melodic theme tirelessly repeated by the singer Ubaldo Suárez.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Throwing this one out to my good friend Merl "shivering in ChillyJockoLand" -

a version for bagpipe and rock band -

*The Red Hot Chili Peppers - Celtic Bolero*


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Becca said:


> Here is one for you... You can tell it's age just by looking at Mehta. What is truly scary is that I remember some of those musicians from when I was first going to L.A. Philharmonic concerts back in the dark ages - Anne Diener Giles on flute, Michele Zukofsky on clarinet (who only recently retired) etc.


Have to admit the oboe d'amore player and the trombone player look awesome in this video! I just wish we could see the celeste player, and more than just the hands of the harp player. And Mehta is, simply Mehta. Gorgeous!


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Ravel's thoughts on "Bolero"

Its audaciously repetitive nature means that Boléro has always had its critics. At its premiere in 1928 there were shouts of "Rubbish!', while Constant Lambert opined: "There is a definite limit to the length of time a composer can go on writing in one dance rhythm (this limit is obviously reached by Ravel towards the end of La valse and towards the beginning of Boléro)." Such sniping aside, this 15-minute crescendo was an instant success and soon became Ravel's most popular piece. Which amazed the composer, who didn't much like the work and was surprised orchestras were prepared to play it.

Ravel was something of a stickler when it came to performing his Boléro. The great conductor Arturo Toscanini learnt this to his expense in May 1930: after having conducted the work at twice the tempo intended by the composer, the latter refused to shake the conductor's hand. Toscanini then said to Ravel, "You don't understand your music at all. It'll fall flat if I don't play it my way". To which Ravel reportedly replied, "Then don't play it at all".

When, on the evening of the first performance, someone shouted that it was the work of a madman, the composer is said to have murmured "That person has understood". More importantly, we have Ravel's actual words: "My masterpiece? Boléro? What next! Sadly there is nothing musical in it"; "My Boléro should bear the epigraph:"Get this into your head..."; not forgetting "Up until this modulation, any Conservatoire student should be able to do as much".

His pupil Manuel Rosenthal clear-sightedly said to Ravel "If the truth be told, you're very disparaging about Boléro, but who else do you think could have written it?". To which the composer replied, "Anyone can do it. All it takes is work and the skills of the trade."

Interesting article -

*Ravel's 'Boléro:' A Product of Dementia?*

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1848385

No one would deny that the sometimes beloved, often reviled Boléro by Maurice Ravel (1875-1937) is repetitive. The French composer himself criticized his most popular work as "a piece for orchestra, without music." Could Boléro have been a manifestation of Ravel's growing dementia?

Originally commissioned in 1928 by ballet dancer Ida Rubinstein as a "choreographed poem," the 15-minute work is dominated by a repetitive, hypnotic rhythm. Weaving through these driving beats are two themes, passed around the different sections of the orchestra and each repeated eight times.

Changes in the work's dynamic level -- which builds throughout the piece to a bombastic, crashing end, increasing as different instruments carry and pass on the melody -- manifest the only variations in the work.

One could argue that Boléro is a great study in the art of orchestration and presents Ravel as a master arranger, making the most of a fleeting musical idea.

But in recent years, psychiatric researchers have offered another possible explanation. They suggest that the repetition in Boléro could reflect a manifestation of Alzheimer's disease, or some other serious mental deterioration.

Perseveration, an Alzheimer's symptom, is the obsession of repeating words or actions, and could have been the mastermind behind Ravel's infamous masterpiece.

It is known that beginning in 1927 or 1928 -- the year he wrote Boléro -- Ravel began to experience perplexing health problems. In the last five years of his life, the act of composing became exceedingly difficult and he lost the ability to write out his music. Ravel died in December 28, 1937, nine days after exploratory brain surgery.

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Maurice Ravel suffered from a degenerative brain disease during the last few years of his life and the illness may have played a part in the composition of Boléro. The left side of the composer's brain ceased to function properly and this may have inhibited Ravel's ability to create melodies, leading him to favor more rhythmic works.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Listen, you lot, there is noooooo way I'm doing a Bolero-Blindcom, so pack it in. Neither will I entertain the 1812 Overture, Wellingtons Victory, Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony or Pachebel's Canon. Otherwise I'm game. Beardy Peter's Marche Slave or Ravel's Pavane anyone? Any other suggestions?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

While I normally prefer to do complete works, I have been thinking about selecting a substantial movement from a larger symphony (e.g. Mahler) ... thoughts??


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Becca said:


> While I normally prefer to do complete works, I have been thinking about selecting a substantial movement from a larger symphony (e.g. Mahler) ... thoughts??


Sounds good, Becca. As long as it isn't the 8th. God, that symphony bores me.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Merl said:


> Sounds good, Becca. As long as it isn't the 8th. God, that symphony bores me.


Das Lied Von Der Erde


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I have a very personal issue with DLVDE, particularly the last movement (and it isn't at all what one might expect), so that isn't one that I will do or participate in. Also voices can be very distinctive and so remove some of the blind factor, so I will avoid most works which are predominately vocal.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

How about the first movement of the 2nd or 9th, or the finale of the 1st?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Complete works that come to mind include Petrouchka, Capriccio Espagnol, Mendelssohn Italian, Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, Respighi's Pines of Rome


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Seriously, I'd very much prefer a complete work.

Think the selection criteria need not change too much. It should be OK as long as it's a well-known piece that is not overly long and has got a lot of recordings; beyond that it's all down to our taste.

How about Beardy's Romeo and Juliet or Capriccio Italien?

Prokofiev 5?

Nielsen 4?

Schubert Unfinished?

Alban Berg's Violin Concerto?

Also sprach Zarathustra?

A Chopin Sonata or Ballade?

Even Mozart's Jupiter? (this would be a challenge for me to sit through it :lol


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I had thought about Nielsen (specifically the 5th) but wasn't sure how many would be interested in him. Zarathustra is an interesting idea as is R&J Perhaps also Brahms 1st piano cto? (I'm trying to avoid Beethoven this year :lol: )

I've done a few Sibelius but there is still the 3rd, 4th & 6th which might be appropriate and for which I can come up with some 'interesting' choices!

Hmm, I could also find some interesting Nielsen 4ths


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Kiki said:


> Seriously, I'd very much prefer a complete work.
> 
> Think the selection criteria need not change too much. It should be OK as long as it's a well-known piece that is not overly long and has got a lot of recordings; beyond that it's all down to our taste.
> 
> ...


Beardy Pete's Capriccio sounds good. I've got shed loads of them or Finlandia.?


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Sure... no Beethoven please, until next year.

Concerto for Orchestra should be nice. Perhaps also Janáček's Sinfonietta. It's shorter.

Finlandia is fine too. Tapiola? Think it's a bit more sophisticated...

Oh I'm happy with any of those that have been mentioned.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Tapiola sounds good. We've had quite a few Sibelius Blindcom. Any more takers for that one? I've got lots of them so it would be simple for me. The only problem with Tapiola is I'd like to do something more upbeat.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Kiki said:


> A Chopin Sonata or Ballade?


_This_ is what I want to see! That or Brahms 3...please, pretty please?:lol: Of course, Tapiola would be peachy too.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> _This_ is what I want to see! That or Brahms 3...please, pretty please?:lol: Of course, Tapiola would be peachy too.


Brahms 3 is a stretch. Schumann's 1st? BTW, I love Brahms 3rd and have ridiculous numbers of Brahms cycles so it would be easy. Maybe I'll put 10 suggestions up and the most popular is what I'll do first.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Thinking about the idea of doing a single movement of a symphony, it occurred to me that the perfect example of that would be the first movement adagio of Mahler's 10th which was the only part of the symphony that many conductors would play. I will go ahead and put this together and have it posted later this evening (Friday morning GMT.)


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

D seems the most superior and well-constructed. Would listen again. 
C is quite troubling, I'm worried... 
B is snappy and exhibitionist. Not bad.
A richly expresses itself but in the wrong ways. If I want to listen to a lesser interpretation, I'll keep it in mind.

Not the best recordings I've heard, but muchas gracias.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Liszt: Les Préludes, symphonic poem No. 3 clocks in at the 16 to 18 minute mark...


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Merl was uncharacteristically vague on whether or not he was doing Ravel's "Bolero" - any updates? 

If he's going to actually do it someone give me a heads up so that I can get to work on making up a fairly plausible excuse as to why I can't participate...


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Merl was uncharacteristically vague on whether or not he was doing Ravel's "Bolero" - any updates?
> 
> If he's going to actually do it someone give me a heads up so that I can get to work on making up a fairly plausible excuse as to why I can't participate...


Your first line would stand as a passable excuse imo


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Duncan said:


> Merl was uncharacteristically vague on whether or not he was doing Ravel's "Bolero" - any updates?
> 
> If he's going to actually do it someone give me a heads up so that I can get to work on making up a fairly plausible excuse as to why I can't participate...


No no no no no........now that wasnt vague!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Duncan said:


> a fairly plausible excuse as to why I can't participate...


In three words ... my continued sanity


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Merl said:


> *Listen, you lot, there is noooooo way I'm doing a Bolero-Blindcom, so pack it in.* Neither will I entertain the 1812 Overture, Wellingtons Victory, Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony or Pachebel's Canon. Otherwise I'm game. Beardy Peter's Marche Slave or Ravel's Pavane anyone? Any other suggestions?





Duncan said:


> *Merl was uncharacteristically vague* *on whether or not he was doing Ravel's "Bolero"* - any updates?
> 
> If he's going to actually do it someone give me a heads up so that I can get to work on making up a fairly plausible excuse as to why I can't participate...





Merl said:


> *No no no no no........now that wasnt vague!*


So... is that a "yes" or a "no"? - :lol:


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