# Underrepresentation of Women in Music Composition



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I recently read an article and a comment on the article in Science Magazine both of which discussed the underrepresentation of women in various fields. The representation in the fields is determined by the percentage of PhD's given. The 30 fields included those from sciences, social sciences, and humanities. These articles are a bit technical but might be interesting to some members. The article focuses on many fields including music composition.

Two things struck me. First, the percentage of PhDs given to women in the US is lowest for 3 fields in the study - physics, computer science, and music composition. In fact, music composition (16%) is even lower than physics (18%) and computer science (19%). Second, the comment indicated a strong (anti-)correlation between percentage of PhD's given to women and quantitative scores on the Graduate Record Exam (GRE). Actually the best indicator seems to be the ratio of the quantitative to the verbal scores. Unfortunately, the comment did not show average GRE scores for music composition PhDs, but we might assume that the correlation holds for this field as well (but see NOTE below).

So...two questions.

1) Do members who know something about graduate programs in music agree that music composition graduate students are overwhelmingly (~80%) male?

2) Do those familiar with music composition believe that quantitative (math) ability is a) desirable in order to be a good composer or b) may help determine whether one interested in music would choose to be a composer?

This a a very complicated topic and easily misunderstood so I'd caution people not to react too quickly to these studies. In particular neither the article nor the comment show or state that women are not as good as men in music composition.

NOTE: The article and the comment disagreed on what is best correlated with the percentage of PHDs in various fields given to women. The comment shows the best correlation is with GRE quantitative scores or the ratio of quantitative to verbal GRE scores. The article shows a good correlation with the _perception_ that raw, innate talent (brilliance) is necessary in a given field.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

12345678901234567890


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

I know very little about music/art schools at the university level. I'm sure others can offer much more information about what specifically might be going on within the ivy covered walls of music schools. That said, I'm very familiar with higher education/higher education administration. Again, I don't know about music schools specifically, but in general there is an over-production of Ph.D. degrees. There are many more Ph.D.s being granted than there are open tenure track positions at colleges and universities. Thus, perhaps it's a good thing that some are bypassing the Ph.D. and moving on with their lives in other ways or else they'll be very disappointed when they graduate and find that there's no room for them in academia unless they want to teach a class as an adjunct for $2-3,000 a semester and get no benefits or job security (assuming there's even jobs like that open because the universities can just give those teaching jobs to even lesser paid Ph.D. students). 

As far as the GRE scores go, it's been a while since I've studied this specifically. In general though based on what I remember, there are no shortage of highly qualified students applying for graduate studies even though it's often economically foolish for students to pursue a doctoral degree. Thus, competitive departments can be very picky in choosing who they accept and may use criteria to make judgments that have no correlation to success in the program. Plus, even though they are academics, they may not use scientific methods to aid in the admissions process.


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## quietfire (Mar 13, 2017)

Not that complicated, got to cook meals etc.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I can't answer your questions on this, but I do note that the 16% figure is similar to the 14% of newly programmed orchestral music being by women (https://www.bsomusic.org/stories/by-the-numbers-female-composers.aspx). I had wondered whether this 14% was an underrepresentation of the actual number of women composers, but the 16% for PhDs suggests it's about right. (And by "right" of course I mean "wrong" )


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Maybe women are just to smart to want to be professional CM composers. I was reading some remarks by Ned Rorem today, who was having his 3rd Symphony premiered by the NY Phil under Leonard Bernstein in the '50s. He was late for the rehearsals because he had to go and stand in line for his unemployment check!

How many composers in the US today make their livings primarily from CM composition? I know of one (see my avatar).


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Logos said:


> 12345678901234567890


Secret code for us.


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## quietfire (Mar 13, 2017)

KenOC said:


> *Maybe women are just to smart *to want to be professional CM composers. I was reading some remarks by Ned Rorem today, who was having his 3rd Symphony premiered by the NY Phil under Leonard Bernstein in the '50s. He was late for the rehearsals because he had to go and stand in line for his unemployment check!
> 
> How many composers in the US today make their livings primarily from CM composition? I know of one (see my avatar).


Haha, I wish...


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Secret code for us.


http://bfy.tw/BGIR


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

David OByrne said:


> http://bfy.tw/BGIR


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Fascinating.

Interesting that Comp Sci and Music Comp come low down. We know women are excellent at comp sci - Grace Hopper and at both composition and composition teaching - Strozzi and Nadia Boulanger. So what gives.

I don't think it's _quantitative_ math ability that matters. My wife plays fiddle and plays well by ear. She finds harmony and chords tricky. I play piano, can't play by ear but enjoy harmony. My wife says I can visualise the harmonies - a sort of spatial sense. Equally, when I used to work in databases, my network manager used to say that I thought in three dimensions - again a sort of spatial sense. Funnily enough my actual spatial sense is poor - I can't always tell if something will fit into a space whereas my wife can.

We know from a variety of studies that STEM (scence, technology, engineering and math) majors tend to have good spatial abilities. We also know that spatial abilities can help to explain some of the gender differences in math scores. We know from a variety of studies that spatial abilities help predict success in computing.

It would seem reasonable, therefore, to assume that the creation of a sounsdcape and its reduction to a score would also be linked to spatial abilities. The question then becomes are the differences in spatial abilities that are seen in the tests a result of genetic differences or are they down to nurture or some combination of both?

The study, by concentrating on expectations of talent fails to even consider the question. The comment, by concentrating on math scores doesn't go deep enough either.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

An opinion article from the March 6th _Guardian_ by Susanna Eastburn,chief executive of Sound and Music, the national charity for new music in the UK

_It's hard to pinpoint cause and effect, but in conversations with other female leaders in the classical sector, I've found that a number of us have noticed a creeping negative shift in attitudes towards women. Somehow the current political climate seems to have given permission for behaviours and attitudes that we thought we had seen the back of. A lack of respect; not being taken seriously; a low-level but deeply wearing sniping, or worse, at women in positions of authority._

...click here to read the full article...


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Taggart said:


> The study, by concentrating on expectations of talent fails to even consider the question. The comment, by concentrating on math scores doesn't go deep enough either.


Neither the article or the comment discuss that question. Maybe they feel that there have been many studies focusing on the nature versus nurture aspect of phenotypes (physical characteristics of organisms). Given that the percentage of women in many of these fields was even lower decades ago, we can assume that perceptions of gender differences pushed women away from these fields. It's not clear if women will continue to increase participation in thee fields such that the percentages will approach 50%.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Becca said:


> An opinion article from the March 6th _Guardian_ by Susanna Eastburn,chief executive of Sound and Music, the national charity for new music in the UK
> 
> _It's hard to pinpoint cause and effect, but in conversations with other female leaders in the classical sector, I've found that a number of us have noticed a creeping negative shift in attitudes towards women. Somehow the current political climate seems to have given permission for behaviours and attitudes that we thought we had seen the back of. A lack of respect; not being taken seriously; a low-level but deeply wearing sniping, or worse, at women in positions of authority._


The Guardian article states that they've seen an increase in negative attitudes towards women in music. They seem to have noticed the change in 2014. I'm not sure how large the recent effect is or whether it's significant. The group, Sound and Music, plans to reach 50% of women participating in their programs by 2020. I'm sure that they will get push back from people saying that they are compromising quality (the article mentions this).


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

Here is my simplistic question. Do as many women want to go into those fields as men? I don't believe that our interests are simply social constructs. I do believe that men and women are wired differently. Different hormones flow through us. Different genetic programming. As we learn just how much our biology impacts who we are, to me it only stands to reason that that would also result - at least at a population level - different interests. Let me stress I'm not implying inferior capability - at least outside of purely physical pursuits where muscle mass, etc., may give an inherent advantage. But, simply put - are women, in general (please don't cite me the exceptions) less interested in musical composition?


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

I'm trying to get a feel for the field here since I know little about music education at the university level. I looked at the two universities I have degrees from since both have music schools of at least decent reputations as far as I know. One does not offer doctoral degrees at all. The other has a doctoral program, but it grants a DMA (Doctor of Musical Arts) degree and not a Ph.D. degree. I don't know what the difference is between a DMA and a Ph.D., but I assume it's not unlike a Psy.D. or Ed.D. where it's based more on practical knowledge with a more practical dissertation rather than research knowledge with a traditional dissertation which might be more along the lines of what you'd see in other basic humanities. Of course, I know a lot of Ed.D. programs are under some fire for reform as a lot of them have drifted towards traditional research curricula without actually granting the research degree.

But, anyway, here are some vital questions that I would need to know to even come close to venturing an informed opinion in the the matter:


How many schools actually offer a music composition Ph.D.?
How many degrees are earned at the institutions that offer it?
Of these, how many fund students through stipends at similar levels as Ph.D. students in the basic sciences and social sciences?
Another question is what kind of schools offer composition Ph.D.s? Are they ivy league type schools? Large public universities? Religious schools?
How much quantitative and qualitative research knowledge is required to complete a music composition Ph.D.?
How in-depth is the quantitative and qualitative research training at the B.A. and M.A. level in music?
Do music composition Ph.D. students have just music degrees or other degrees to go along with it like a double major in the natural/social sciences?
Yet another question is how many females get M.A.s (or an equivalent) in music composition?
What's the gender balance like with DMA and other similar type of non-traditional doctoral degrees?


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Have anyone heard composition by Fanny Mendelssohn. I think she is very comparable to her brother.


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## Sol Invictus (Sep 17, 2016)

pcnog11 said:


> Have anyone heard composition by Fanny Mendelssohn. I think she is very comparable to her brother.


Didn't Mendelssohn publish some of his sister's work as his own in order to preserve her legacy?


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

When I was in conservatory, there were maybe 5 women in a total student body of around 1500. Maybe 5. One thought I've had about women composers is: I think things like CDs that are collections of women composers, and having concerts of all women composers is not such a good thing. In my (questionable) opinion, I think this only serves to further marginalize them. Like there is this subtle undercurrent/implication that they're not "real" composers; they're "women" composers.

Why not give them equal billing with men composers on any given concert program? Just a thought.

-09


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Omicron9 said:


> When I was in conservatory, there were maybe 5 women in a total student body of around 1500. Maybe 5. One thought I've had about women composers is: I think things like CDs that are collections of women composers, and having concerts of all women composers is not such a good thing. In my (questionable) opinion, I think this only serves to further marginalize them. Like there is this subtle undercurrent/implication that they're not "real" composers; they're "women" composers.
> 
> Why not give them equal billing with men composers on any given concert program? Just a thought.
> 
> -09


I like this idea. As you hint at above, when we have separate concerts for woman composers, the hidden implication is that they cannot compete with male composers and thus need their own special concert. But composition is not the Olympic Games.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It's really a mystery to me. Women have been star performers for a very long time, certainly back to Schumann's day. Nobody ever thought this was strange. But compositions by women, especially those that have entered the repertoire, seem exceedingly rare.

I'm not buying the "prejudice" argument, sorry. I just can't believe that's the whole story, or even a significant part of it.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> It's really a mystery to me. Women have been star performers for a very long time, certainly back to Schumann's day. Nobody ever thought this was strange. But compositions by women, especially those that have entered the repertoire, seem exceedingly rare.
> 
> I'm not buying the "prejudice" argument, sorry. I just can't believe that's the whole story, or even a significant part of it.


So you don't think that historically women were discouraged from composing (and many other things)? You seem to imply that if women performers were accepted then composers would be no different. Correct me if I misunderstood.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Chronochromie said:


> So you don't think that historically women were discouraged from composing (and many other things)? You seem to imply that if women performers were accepted then composers would be no different. Correct me if I misunderstood.


Repeat: "I just can't believe that's the whole story, or even a significant part of it." Terribly, terribly politically incorrect, I know.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Repeat: "I just can't believe that's the whole story, or even a significant part of it." Terribly, terribly politically incorrect, I know.


I don't see this going anywhere, so I'll just calmly take a step back and quietly flee the thread.

Yes, many years on this forum have made me wise, now I can practically predict the future around these parts.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I was about to say that this is more a thing of the past and that among contemporary composers women like Gubaidulina and Saariaho command the same respect as men. Then I realized that even in today's playing ground, female composers of name are vastly outnumbered by male composers.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

KenOC said:


> It's really a mystery to me. Women have been star performers for a very long time, certainly back to Schumann's day. Nobody ever thought this was strange. But compositions by women, especially those that have entered the repertoire, seem exceedingly rare.
> 
> I'm not buying the "prejudice" argument, sorry. I just can't believe that's the whole story, or even a significant part of it.


Go back a little further. We know Vivaldi taught some excellent performers. He wrote the music for them. Why didn't he encourage them to write for themselves? We know the Baroque tradition would have encouraged improvisation. Why didn't we see composition emerging from this? Wasn't it because the women were being taught "useful skills" rather than being encourage to develop.

We know that women could and did compose. Look at Chiara Margarita Cozzolani who came from a rich family. It is notable that the local archbishop was not at all happy with the singing nuns and wished things to settle down.

Other examples include Barbara Strozzi, supported by her adoptive (possibly actual) father or Élisabeth Jacquet de La Guerre from a family of musicians and musical instrument makers. Élisabeth Jacquet de La Guerre was noted for her facility at improvisation a skill expected of Baroque musicians.

As we move into the 19th century we move away from the musician as composer and improviser towards the musician as performer. That also puts a gap between male and female. Much music was purely domestic with public music being played (in Britain) in gentlemen's clubs - not suitable for women.

I beg to differ, therefore, as to how much prejudice played a part.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

After 40 years in education I can say my music ensembles were ALWAYS female heavy.
Maybe the researchers should look between secondary education years and college for more answers.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Taggart said:


> As we move into the 19th century we move away from the musician as composer and improviser towards the musician as performer. That also puts a gap between male and female. Much music was purely domestic with public music being played (in Britain) in gentlemen's clubs - not suitable for women.


Okay but nobody cared about British composers anyway. Meanwhile, for example, Clara Wieck/Schumann was in demand as a concert pianist, and if she'd otherwise been confident in her ability as a composer, she could have made the public listen to her own compositions and like it. As for the role that prejudice played in the fact that she wasn't, her own words: "I always comfort myself with the thought that I am a woman after all, and they are not born to compose."

To this I would add that prejudice could, at least under some circumstances, be partly overcome, notably and gloriously by Ethel Smyth, but a genius for steamrolling over social convention is one thing, a first rate genius for composition (or any sort of creative art) is another, the first is by definitionextremely rare, the second rare almost to the point of non-existence, and the chance of the two coinciding approaches zero, so if you need the first in order to cultivate the second, then you're almost certainly going to waste all of the tiny number of people who have the second.

This is of course more generally why the bootstraps line is always stupid, wasteful, self-thwarting petty cruelty.


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Not to point out the obvious, but Hildegard von Bingen's music is still highly respected. I have a small pile of her CDs; love it.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

I think it is a variety of factors. Historically, yes - women were discouraged/prevented from participating in such professions. The other factor has to deal with the popularity of the various periods in classical music. Generally, the romantic and classical and baroque periods get programmed a lot more - both in recordings and live performances. For most of those periods - with a few exceptions - women were not significantly represented. So we tend to hear less works from female composers. In modern times, more women, no doubt, have begun musical composition - but modern classical just isn't as popular as are the works from the romantic period and back. So you won't hear many female composers.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Omicron9 said:


> Not to point out the obvious, but Hildegard von Bingen's music is *still* highly respected.


Well yeah, but there was an 800-year period where nobody listened to it...


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> Well yeah, but there was an 800-year period where nobody listened to it...


That's true as far as it goes, but it's not like they were listening to Adam de Saint-Victor either.

General notes -

1. Submitted for consideration: https://books.google.com/books?id=j...t+because+there+is+no+female+jack+the+ripper"

2. Maybe we'll eventually conclude that Éliane Radigue is the greatest European classical composer since Stockhausen - or since Stravinsky? (At least until the Beatles and the Rolling Stones are so old that Paul McCartney and Keith Richards count.)


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## sloth (Jul 12, 2013)

I simply don't pay attention if a piece was written by a male or a female composer. Does that really matter?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

sloth said:


> I simply don't pay attention if a piece was written by a male or a female composer. Does that really matter?


On a piece-by-piece basis, no, it doesn't. But on a broader scale it does to some people.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> Well yeah, but there was an 800-year period where nobody listened to it...


Yes! Yes! I remember!!!


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