# Andras Schiff being HILARIOUSLY snooty about the opus 111



## ibrahim (Apr 29, 2017)

Americans (and maybe others?) call a certain section of the amazing second movement of Beethoven's opus 111 the "boogie woogie" variation, because the section sounds very free and very playful and downright jazzy.

ANDRAS SCHIFF DOES NOT LIKE THAT.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Interesting dissection. Thanks!!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Was it _Help!_ that had some British guy accuse the Beatles of writing "boojie-woojie music"? :lol:


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Yeah, I'm with Schiff. I don't like the analogy with the boogie woogie. I heard someone say the Beethoven was an anticipation of the boogie woogie. If anything the boogie woogie was invented from its inspiration, but it is taken out of context of the original.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Heeeee's the boogie woogie bugle boy of Bonn, Germany . . . (That actually almost works.)


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Even Schiff is entitled to his opinion.


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## ibrahim (Apr 29, 2017)

There's another lecture by him on youtube where he talks about the same section of music and says, in relation to the 'boogie woogie,' --"it should not be compared to banalities!"


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Beethoven is as much boogie-woogie as Chopin's Prelude #2 in a-minor is blues:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Boogie-woogie or not, Schiff was engaging in some boogie-woogie moves.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I have never been able to 'get' the boogie-woogie analogy. Back when, it was suggested and now it seems to be accepted as reality.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Some people need senses of humor.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Of course that section of Beethovens op111 isn't boogywoogy. It's the other way around. I really don't like that section because it makes me think of boogywoogy jazz, a genre that for me means lack of originality and interesting structure because it all just sounds the same. For me it's impossible to hear that section without thinking of that stupid jolly atmosphere I associate with boogywoogy jazz (snapping fingers, pianist looking sideways to the audience, yeah, groovy...). If there wouldn't exist any boogywoogy I probably would be able to find that section a brilliant piece of music.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

MarkW said:


> Some people need senses of humor.


Ain't that the truth, and Andras Schiff is high on the list. He's a fine musician but he can be gratingly pompous at times.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Andras Schiff said:


> I don't like the boogie woogie.


But the boogie woogie likes _you_, Andras.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Razumovskymas said:


> Of course that section of Beethovens op111 isn't boogywoogy. It's the other way around. I really don't like that section because it makes me think of boogywoogy jazz, a genre that for me means lack of originality and interesting structure because it all just sounds the same. For me it's impossible to hear that section without thinking of that stupid jolly atmosphere I associate with boogywoogy jazz (snapping fingers, pianist looking sideways to the audience, yeah, groovy...). If there wouldn't exist any boogywoogy I probably would be able to find that section a brilliant piece of music.


It's the out-of-place context Raz, that you don't like. If the boogie woogie came before Beethoven, I would not take that movement seriously. But since Beethoven did come before, then it is meant to be heard as highly personal. Luckily I can listen to it without its boogie woogie connotations.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Was it _Help!_ that had some British guy accuse the Beatles of writing "boojie-woojie music"? :lol:







About 1:20 seconds in.

By the way, this song is on my workout mix. The Beethoven, on the other hand, is not.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The Beethoven is as much boogie-woogie as Chopin's Prelude #2 in a-minor is blues:


I agree. A more interesting case for me is the 3rd movement of the Prokofiev Flue Sonata, since Prokofiev had to have been exposed to blues and jazz before he composed it. It's in ternary form and the B section is the best blues/classical fusion I have ever heard - except the fusion is so fluid, organic and unselfconscious it makes me wonder if the idea even occurred to him. Or is it obvious?:






Anyway, I think the thread title is doubly wrong. Schiff is not the least bit snooty about it, but in fact good humored. There is nothing the least bit funny about the tasteful way he handled the issue. (But alas, good luck hearing it the way Beethoven's contemporaries might have )


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> I agree. A more interesting case for me is the 3rd movement of the Prokofiev Flue Sonata, since Prokofiev had to have been exposed to blues and jazz before he composed it. It's in ternary form and the B section is the best blues/classical fusion I have ever heard - except the fusion is so fluid, organic and unselfconscious it makes me wonder if the idea even occurred to him. Or is it obvious?:


I think he's just being Prokofiev. The idiom is exactly the same as in his _Cinderella_ - quirky, tangy and very undisneyish.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I think he's just being Prokofiev. The idiom is exactly the same as in his _Cinderella_ - quirky, tangy and very undisneyish.


Well, yeah, it sounds like Prokofiev for sure. What I was referring to is the pentatonic underpinnings with standard blue passing notes and the harmonic rhythm - all of which could be sui generis. Off to the basement shelves to see if the biographies shed any light …

… Okay, I'm back. From Harlow Robinson: "[During his time in the U.S.] Prokofiev listened to American music of all kinds. In his extensive record collection, he had 'at least a hundred recordings' of jazz, which he 'liked a great deal and played very often.' In a long article on American music for a Soviet magazine, Prokofiev devoted considerable space to jazz, arguing that some of its aspects deserved to be considered on the same level as 'serious music.'" Following this is P's take on Gershwin and his "successful" incorporation of folk and jazz elements.

Guess I should have made the trip to "the stacks" before my first post . But now I am sure: there is blues in that sonata. Might it be wistful nostalgia for the weeks when he was courted by the cream of Hollywood, who wanted his sounds in their films?


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> I agree. A more interesting case for me is the 3rd movement of the Prokofiev Flue Sonata, since Prokofiev had to have been exposed to blues and jazz before he composed it. It's in ternary form and the B section is the best blues/classical fusion I have ever heard - except the fusion is so fluid, organic and unselfconscious it makes me wonder if the idea even occurred to him. Or is it obvious?:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Matter of opinion. His manner may not be especially snooty (on this occasion at least) but the point itself is, and he even feels it necessary to return to it after he's played the variation in question.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Whenever I've played Op. 111 to "classical novice" friends, their eyes light up at the point under discussion, and comments to the effect of "Wow, Beethoven was way ahead of his time!" invariably follow. Anything that opens a potential convert's ears can only be good, and if that means calling some Bach/Beethoven pieces "jazzy" or some Ravel/Rachmaninov pieces "bluesy", it's OK by me. Sometimes, it pays to blame it on the boogie


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> The Beethoven is as much boogie-woogie as Chopin's Prelude #2 in a-minor is blues:


The fact of the matter of course is that Beethoven and Chopin don't sound kind of like boogie-woogie and blues; boogie-woogie and blues sound kind of like Beethoven and Chopin.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Matter of opinion. His manner may not be especially snooty (on this occasion at least) but the point itself is, and he even feels it necessary to return to it after he's played the variation in question.


You might be missing some context. Mr. Schiff no doubt does piano master classes and lectures all the time. Isn't it likely that every time he discusses that movement of Op. 111, he gets a certain reaction from members of his audience? In fact, I know it is likely because in a class I attended on Beethoven's Piano Sonatas by Denes Bartha (one of Schiff's countrymen it seems), the issue came up, as it did in an academic paper I heard by a piano professor from Wellesly College. So, Schiff certainly has dealt with the question before, probably multiple times, and I'm sure he is sick to death of dealing with it. That he did so with any good grace and humor whatever is a credit to him, not a reason to accuse him of snobbery.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Magnum Miserium said:


> The fact of the matter of course is that Beethoven and Chopin don't sound kind of like boogie-woogie and blues; boogie-woogie and blues sound kind of like Beethoven and Chopin.


I'm not sure about your point, but the example linked is perfect for the, admittedly, off topic point I was making about Prokofiev and the blues. Prokofiev apparently knew his Gershwin.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> I'm not sure about your point, but the example linked is perfect for the, admittedly, off topic point I was making about Prokofiev and the blues. Prokofiev apparently knew his Gershwin.


I think the more salient point is that Gershwin definitely knew his Chopin.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Andras dismissed it with good humor, but I do like the boogie woogie. Examples, Gulda '53, Richter, Kissin. :tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Magnum Miserium said:


> The fact of the matter of course is that Beethoven and Chopin don't sound kind of like boogie-woogie and blues; boogie-woogie and blues sound kind of like Beethoven and Chopin.


As a matter of fact, I tend to think of Gershwin's prelude whenever I think of Chopin's. Another prelude in Chopin's set ends with the minor seventh added to the tonic chord. That must have brought out the smelling salts back then.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Schiff does not consider that boogie woogie, too, could be ecstatic.


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