# Composers/musicians and their insecurities



## yofaka (May 27, 2019)

Hi all,

I am curious about your thoughts. Do you know any important composers/musicians/conductors with major insecurities or doubts?

For example, I know that Carlos Kleiber was a very insecure conductor who always had a plane ticket in his pocket in case he wanted to return before the concert.

And there's that famous concert by Maria Joao Pires where she forgot her sheet music. While performing on stage she had to be convinced by the conductor to finish the Mozart Concerto by head.

Who has more anecdotes like these?

Keep safe!
Ilja


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

It isn't must musicians.

Brahms destroyed much of his music when young, the reason he never published a symphony until in his 40s. He was intimidated being in the shadow of Beethoven.

Sviatoslav Richter has a famous recording of the Hammerklavier sonata where he forgot about 10 bars. He never played without music after that.

I attended a concert where a violinist forget about 10 bars of the St. Saens Violin Concerto No. 3 in the finale near the end. He didn't play as the orchestra went along.

I once couldn't turn the page of my music and missed a few bars of a song I was singing; it doesn't just happen without music.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

*Glenn Gould* had at least a couple, although, to be kind, they're usually referred to as "eccentricities".

For one, he always insisted on performing, for over 21 years, on a *chair* that his father had built when Gould was a child. Gould was "obsessed" with the chair and "wouldn't perform on anything else."

_"It is a boon companion, without which I do not function, I cannot operate."
_

"On the warm summer day of the first recording session" of his first recording of Bach's Goldberg Variations, writes Edward Rothstein at The New York Times:

_
He arrived at the recording studio wearing a winter coat, 
a beret, a muffler and gloves. He carried a batch of towels, 
bottles of spring water, several varieties of pills and a 
14-inch high piano chair to sit on. He soaked his arms in 
hot water for 20 minutes, took several medications, 
adjusted each leg of his chair, and proceeded to play, 
loudly humming and singing along.

After a week, he had produced one of the most remarkable 
performances of Bach's Goldberg Variations on record.
_​
Gould was also a noted *germaphobe*.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

yofaka said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am curious about your thoughts. Do you know any important composers/musicians/conductors with major insecurities or doubts?
> 
> ...


The story with Maria Joao Pires was she prepared for a different concerto than what they were performing. I saw the video and she only realized when the orchestra started playing. She played from memory perfectly. I recall it wasn't her fault, and somehow there was a miscommunication.

Tchaikovsky was famously very insecure and self critical. Ravel also.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

I think I have the best example...Arnold Schoenberg......inventor of the *12 tone row* was afraid of the number 13 - triskaidekaphobia. I always wondered what would have happened if a donut maker offered him a bakers dozen.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Room2201974 said:


> I think I have the best example...Arnold Schoenberg......inventor of the *12 tone row* was afraid of the number 13 - triskaidekaphobia. I always wondered what would have happened if a donut maker offered him a bakers dozen.


That explains why he invented 12-tone and not 13-tone.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

yofaka said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am curious about your thoughts. Do you know any important composers/musicians/conductors with major insecurities or doubts?


Duparc

Clifford Curzon


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Bruckner has to be the prime candidate; so insecure and doubting that he willingly let others (Franz Schalk for one) have him rewrite the symphonies to their specification or went along with changes they made.

Tchaikovsky was notorious for despising or criticizing a work that he thought highly of while it was underway. The 5th symphony, loved by audiences and orchestras and conductors alike, is a work he particularly thought cheap and vulgar.

Performers are a different breed: it takes real guts, a high level of security and self-importance to get up in front of audiences and play (or conduct). I have never known a conductor without a healthy ego.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Pianist/composer/teacher Adolf von Henselt was once considered among the best pianists of his time, along with Chopin and Liszt but apparently had "chronic stage fright that bordered on paranoia" that caused him to stop performing in public.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

larold said:


> Sviatoslav Richter has a famous recording of the Hammerklavier sonata where he forgot about 10 bars. He never played without music after that.


How can you bring up Richter in this context without bringing up his plastic lobster?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

With Henri Duparc was it not so much insecurity but an all-out nervous breakdown which made him turn his back on music?


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

According to Vladimir Horowitz, Rachmaninoff "was very insecure about everything." 

Horowitz himself suffered from chronic anxiety and insecurity. He was unsure of his status as a serious artist and at times even suspected he was a mere entertainer with an outsized technique. As a result, he retired from performing several times extending over many years and even underwent shock therapy in the 1970s. At times Horowitz was so terrified of going on stage that he had to be literally pushed from the wings by his manager.

Britten's letters show that he was pathologically insecure, and could be cruel to friends and colleagues. 

Brahms' insecurity led him to outwardly disparage some of his major compositions by referring to them as little more than trifles or bon-bons. He once described his Fourth Symphony, for example, as “a bunch of polkas and waltzes.” 

Ernest Chausson suffered life-long feelings of insecurity and doubt about his abilities.

Edward Elgar had his share of insecurities, stemming from his humble origins as well as from the fact that he was largely self-taught as a composer, without the usual conservatory training. 

Mussorgsky would start something new with great enthusiasm only to bog down in self-doubt, insecure in his technical abilities.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Beethoven was famously insecure about money -- was always fearful about becoming impoverished.

Mendelssohn, for whatever reason, was never convinced that his Italian symphony was up to snuff, and died not liking it. (Of course, much of his -- especially chamber -- music _sounds_ as if he were deathly afraid it would grind to a halt by itself uncontrollably, so he piled in a lot of extra notes just to be sure.  )

Shostakovich was often fearful of being hauled off in the middle of the night and shot . . . oh.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

howlingfantods said:


> How can you bring up Richter in this context without bringing up his plastic lobster?


I had to look this up. What a hilarious quirk! The NY Times even made a huge feature article out of it: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...r-sviatoslav-richter.html#the-hills-are-alive


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

MarkW said:


> Beethoven was famously insecure about money -- was always fearful about becoming impoverished.


He wouldn't be the first composer to die penniless.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Given his status and all what evidence he did die penniless?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MarkW said:


> Mendelssohn, for whatever reason, was never convinced that his Italian symphony was up to snuff, and died not liking it.


He actually rewrote it, and you can hear the revised version alongside the familiar one in a recording by John Eliot Gardiner. Most of the changes are small, and none are improvements.



> (Of course, much of his -- especially chamber -- music _sounds_ as if he were deathly afraid it would grind to a halt by itself uncontrollably, so he piled in a lot of extra notes just to be sure.  )


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Bigbang said:


> Given his status and all what evidence [Beethoven] did die penniless?


Most freelance musicians of Beethoven's time did die in poverty but Beethoven was a rare exception. He did not die destitute or nearly so. Many musicians who had been as popular as Beethoven died in destitution, including Luigi Boccherini, Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf, Johan Vanhal, Emanuel Forster, Michael Haydn, and Joseph Czerny. Despite the ruinous economic conditions in Austria at the time (from 1796 to 1823, the cost of renting an apartment in Vienna increased thirtyfold. The other necessities of life rose accordingly. The total inflation rate from 1809 to 1817 was 1,212 percent), Beethoven's net worth on his death in 1827 was 9,018 gulden. By contrast, Antonio Salieri's net worth in 1825 was 27,918 gulden; while Schubert's in 1828 was minus 206 gulden.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

From what I've read, Rachmaninoff leads the list of insecure great composers, while Glenn Gould has to rank as the most insecure famous performer. Others may have had equally strange quirks, but Gould decided to cease performing in public altogether at a young age. I wouldn't put Brahms in that category, though he did destroy many of his earliest works. He may have seen himself as inferior to Beethoven, but he also saw himself as superior to his contemporaries, and wasn't afraid to say so. 

One more modern and perhaps surprising example of insecurity was Leonard Bernstein. He seems to have had a desperate need to please everyone around him, everyone who wanted something from him, or even, just plain everyone, including by fulfilling everyone's lofty expectations of what he was capable of doing. Towards the end, he began to feel he hadn't had either the professional or the personal life he had wanted due to his endless efforts to please others. Professionally, he believed he should have accomplished more as a composer and tried to devote much of his time to that. Personally, most here probably know that he left his long-time wife (and mother of his children) to move in with a gay lover. Both of those decisions were failures, the latter one disastrous. To me, that is one of the worst forms of insecurity: the inability to accept, without second-guessing, the life decisions one has irrevocably made.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I have trouble seeing Glenn Gould as insecure. Whacko, maybe! But nobody could do those many comedy bits as he did (check YouTube) without enjoying stepping right out there on the stage in front of God and everybody. And he was always seeking visibility through his sometimes outrageous program notes, made up interviews with famous composers (well, Mozart anyway), and a host of other initiatives that can be found in the _Glenn Gould Reader_. No, he was definitely not a shrinking violet!


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

KenOC said:


> I have trouble seeing Glenn Gould as insecure. Whacko, maybe! But nobody could do those many comedy bits as he did (check YouTube) without enjoying stepping right out there on the stage in front of God and everybody. And he was always seeking visibility through his sometimes outrageous program notes, made up interviews with famous composers (well, Mozart anyway), and a host of other initiatives that can be found in the _Glenn Gould Reader_. No, he was definitely not a shrinking violet!


Read his own writings, most of which are collected by Tim Page in The Glenn Gould Reader. All that showboating was false bravado, as far as I can tell. Negative criticism in the press was more than he could take, and his parodies, brilliant and hilarious as they were, seemed to be his way of striking back. Arthur Rubinstein indicated, in a non-vindictive way as far as I can determine, that he couldn't understand Gould's decision not to perform in public. Gould then did a rather scathing and utterly hilarious parody of Rubinstein's autobiographical writings. Critics questioned Gould's heavy (for his era, anyway) use of editing in the recording process, and Gould responded with another elaborate and hilarious parody. When Gould's odd recording of the Art of the Fugue on the organ drew harsh criticism, he announced an injury to his shoulder precluded further organ recordings. In general, Gould was remarkably clever in turning his quirks into PR assets, as well as possessing excellent theatrical and literary instincts. But I don't want to spoil your fun. Read on.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Are there any artists that are 'secure' and 'normal', without pretending, about there work? Are there any secure and normal people, without pretending, about who they are?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

fluteman said:


> Read his own writings, most of which are collected by Tim Page in The Glenn Gould Reader. All that showboating was false bravado, as far as I can tell. Negative criticism in the press was more than he could take, and his parodies, brilliant and hilarious as they were, seemed to be his way of striking back. Arthur Rubinstein indicated, in a non-vindictive way as far as I can determine, that he couldn't understand Gould's decision not to perform in public. Gould then did a rather scathing and utterly hilarious parody of Rubinstein's autobiographical writings. Critics questioned Gould's heavy (for his era, anyway) use of editing in the recording process, and Gould responded with another elaborate and hilarious parody. When Gould's odd recording of the Art of the Fugue on the organ drew harsh criticism, he announced an injury to his shoulder precluded further organ recordings. In general, Gould was remarkably clever in turning his quirks into PR assets, as well as possessing excellent theatrical and literary instincts. But I don't want to spoil your fun. Read on.


Without disagreeing with any of what you write, I see nothing to support the idea that Gould was "insecure." Which is, of course, the topic under discussion. :lol:


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Artur Rodzinski has to be way, way up on the list!! He was out there..ie - he always brought a loaded revolver to every rehearsal/concert!! Presumably to ward off the anti-musical demons who might inhabit the minds and bodies if his musicians(??)...he once showed up 40 minutes late to a LAPO concert - he left home without his revolver!! Obviously, he had to return home to retrieve it!!


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

NLAdriaan said:


> Are there any artists that are 'secure' and 'normal', without pretending, about there work? Are there any secure and normal people, without pretending, about who they are?


I think "normal" is fake news more often than not. It's more normal to not be normal.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Knorf said:


> I think "normal" is fake news more often than not. It's more normal to not be normal.


Yup, and pretending to be normal is a bit sad.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Beethoven was parsimonious to the point of stinginess, and sometimes engaged in sharp practice. He certainly spent very little money in personal upkeep or clothing. He didn't live the high life that the Mozart's often did (and Mozart at times earnt a great deal of money)


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

^
^

Those are the impressions I have of him - After leaving his rooms in the _Pasqualatihaus_ (owned by one of his patrons) in 1814 he often 'apartment hopped', never bought any real estate and his only real luxuries seemed to be his piano and a cook/housekeeper.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Without disagreeing with any of what you write, I see nothing to support the idea that Gould was "insecure." Which is, of course, the topic under discussion. :lol:


As I said, look deeper and you may think otherwise. But even on the surface, what more obvious evidence of insecurity can there be than leaving the concert stage for good at the age of 31 to specialize in heavily, if not obsessively, edited studio recordings? And remember, this was in an era when commercial recording had only recently begun to attain the immense importance it now has, and editing techniques were nowhere near as sophisticated, comprehensive and pervasive as they are now. If Gould were around today, he'd likely be an internet presence almost exclusively, though neither pop nor classical music industries have yet eliminated the need for live performance entirely.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Most freelance musicians of Beethoven's time did die in poverty but Beethoven was a rare exception. He did not die destitute or nearly so. Many musicians who had been as popular as Beethoven died in destitution, including Luigi Boccherini, Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf, Johan Vanhal, Emanuel Forster, Michael Haydn, and Joseph Czerny. Despite the ruinous economic conditions in Austria at the time (from 1796 to 1823, the cost of renting an apartment in Vienna increased thirtyfold. The other necessities of life rose accordingly. The total inflation rate from 1809 to 1817 was 1,212 percent), Beethoven's net worth on his death in 1827 was 9,018 gulden. By contrast, Antonio Salieri's net worth in 1825 was 27,918 gulden; while Schubert's in 1828 was minus 206 gulden.


In 1850 Austrian Gulden was worth ca. 15 EUR (2020). 
I was able to find information that the value of this currency (in relation to the prices of silver) remained very stable between 1837 and the early 1850s.
I also know that the prices of gold did not change much between 1825 and 1837.

A rough estimate would tell us that Schubert was ca. 3000 EUR in debt, Beethoven had 135 000 EUR of savings, and Salieri had around 420 000 EUR.

I don't know the pay of a manservant back then, or the price of a basket of eggs, but such sums don't seem outrageous to me in either direction, as far as artists before the record era are concerned.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Don't forget that ignorant people probably gave them reason for their insecurity. They just couldn't take their focus off these people at those times or enough.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

regenmusic said:


> Don't forget that ignorant people probably gave them reason for their insecurity. They just couldn't take their focus off these people at those times or enough.


Yes, that is a very good point. Creative artists are always doing something that is new and unique, whether in a subtle or outlandish way or somewhere in between. The potential for criticism or even ridicule is always there. They may find a way to press on, but some find it particularly painful. I've read that Rachmaninoff was devastated by the less than enthusiastic critical response to his first symphony, and actually tried hypnosis to improve his self-confidence.

The funny thing is, some of the great composers who reputedly were shy and quiet types in general were anything but when it came to evaluating their own music, including performances of it and criticism of it, and their standing as artists. Schubert and Ravel, for example, didn't mince words in discussing such things, nor did Brahms. Sadly, Glenn Gould was not that way, and retreated ever further from the outside world as he aged.

One especially sad incident in Gould's case came before the start of a Brahms first concerto performance under the baton of Leonard Bernstein. Fully aware the concert would be radio broadcast and with his ever present theatrical instincts (and fragile ego, imho), Bernstein announced to the audience that he had artistic differences with the "unorthodox" soloist, but that his ideas were worth hearing.

In not his proudest moment, the great music critic Harold Schonberg (whom I knew personally and greatly admired), apparently deciding that Bernstein had opened the door to taking potshots at Gould, wrote one of the nastiest and most condescending reviews I have ever seen, at least of a classical music concert with famous world-class performers, skewering Bernstein as well as Gould. Gould retired from the stage for good not long afterwards.

All of that is very sad, but one wishes Gould had the self-confidence to shrug off such things and carry on.


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