# Depuis Le Jour Contest: Renee Fleming and Alessandra Marc



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I thought I would begin round one of the Depuis le jour contest with two singers who are our contemporaries. I don't think Louise by Charpentier is performed very often, but many sopranos have sung it in recital albums and recitals. Renee Fleming is quite well known for performing it and there are several versions of her doing it in different concerts on Youtube. Alessandra Marc is less well known but I personally revel in the incredible beauty of her voice. Acclaimed Washington Post classical music critic Philip Kennicott: "Alessandra Marc has the most beautiful voice in the world...a truth that ought to be expressed as extravagantly as the voice it's applied to." Out of all the singers I ever heard only Jessye Norman equaled her voice for sheer beauty. You will no doubt have your own reactions to these divas.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I always found Renee Fleming’s voice rather generic, and she is on my list of recorded singers to avoid for other reasons.
Alessandra Marc has a more distinctive voice, though her diction suffers somewhat in her video, perhaps in her effort to control the big voice. Nevertheless, I chose Marc.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Fleming for me. Alessandra Marc may have a gorgeous voice, but she makes absolutely nothing of the words, well, to be honest, she barely bothers with them. Most of the time she is just making sounds , beautiful though those sounds may be. There is no sense of mounting rapture, of the young girl opening up to passion. 

Fleming also has one of the most beautiful voices we've heard over the last forty years or so, though, as so often, she could be accused of over-interpreting, but I've always preferred too much intelligence to too little. Nor does she indulge too much here in the jazzy slides that I sometimes find annoying. Her diction isn't perfect either, but she certainly knows what she's singing about.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Renee Fleming has such a conspicuous intelligence and imagination that I can't but listen transfixed as she takes what must be the slowest tempo ever heard in this music, giving herself plenty of time to apply an infinity of never-before-or-since imagined nuances to the production of her sumptuous tone. It's a bit like what the variety shows used to call "song-styling:" I don't hear Louise, that simple working-class girl bewitched by the big city, but rather an artsy stylization of her.

Alessandra Marc brings us a more normal experience, though I can't say I find her performance ideal; the voice is beautiful, but her vowels sound too much alike, depriving us of the pleasure of savoring the French language, and there's a feeling more of control than of abandon. Fleming has superior diction, but I guess I'll vote for Marc, though without enthusiasm.

On the other hand, maybe I won't.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I'm not a fan of either singer (and I saw both live around the same time). Marc has one of those big fog horn voices that I personally am not into (anyone with the perfect Brunhilde voice just isn't to my taste). Fleming has a lovely voice, but it isn't distinctive and she could put more into her interpretation.

Now onto these two examples. I'm surprised how slow the Fleming version is and yet it still works. It's lovely and she has caught the dreamy atmosphere of the aria as a whole. Her simple approach works here.

Marc is a revelation. I had no idea her voice was so beautiful and she is helped by conducting, which is more impassioned than in the Fleming version. However, there is a slight lack of focus in the voice (it seems to be a characteristic of the Brunhilde voice) and the interpretation here has a somewhat fragmentary nature to it. However, I prefer Marc's voice over Fleming's.

Fleming's is the better sung version of the aria (but only just), but I prefer Marc's voice even though her phrasing is flawed.

I'm going to go with Marc (but ask me tomorrow and Fleming might win).

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I would just add that neither of the two versions above would be my top favourote for this aria. For that I'd go to Mary Garden, Ninon Vallin, Eleanor Steber or, from more recent times Angela Gheorghiu. Callas's 1961 studio version is compromised by the parlous state of her voice at that time(and even when she sang it live in concert in 1955 it didn't really work for her) but the quiet intention of her intent is never in doubt. Interpretively it's unbeatable.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I would just add that neither of the two versions above would be my top favourote for this aria. For that I'd go to Mary Garden, Ninon Vallin, Eleanor Steber or, from more recent times Angela Gheorghiu. Callas's 1961 studio version is compromised by the parlous state of her voice at that time(and even when she sang it live in concert in 1955 it didn't really work for her) but the quiet intention of her intent is never in doubt. Interpretively it's unbeatable.


I just started and wanted contemporary artists I was familiar with. I was considering a couple that you mentioned for later. More to come as interest persists, friend. Normally Callas is the artist to beat but I agree with you the state of her voice compromises her interpretation. Earlier on she could have nailed this one. I was hoping my Callas fanatic friends would forgive me not putting her into the mix even though of course her interpretation is marvelous. I just don't at all like the way she sounds in this aria at that time in her career.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Where is it? I have no place to listen to the arias

Never mind I found them hidden at the end of Seattle's post -- sorry.
Now to vote:
Once again a puzzlement. Do I vote for the most gorgeous, velvet sounding voice of all time (IMO) or the one that became completely involved with the aria (and that last high note near the end!) proving that what Callas said about having a beautiful voice is not enough?
Marc it is.
I want to add that neither one is my idea of the most appealing and beautifully executed example of the aria. I'll take Dorothy Maynor for that.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Where is it? I have no place to listen to the arias
> 
> Never mind I found them hidden at the end of Seattle's post -- sorry.
> Now to vote:
> ...


Wasn't Dorothy that African American lady? I am not clear on who you are talking about in your post? Who was the owner of the most gorgeous, velvet sounding voice of all time as in their own way both ladies could be nominated from my limited perspective. I endorse your vote for Marc, though. BTW, I am going to figure out how to post the videos like Bonetan did. Thanks for pointing that out.Regarding the singers: I saw Fleming in recital twice, but the really memorable time was in an aria recital with the symphony. She sang Bel Raggio complete with high Eb and was sensational. She was the most glamorous creature I have ever beheld in the flesh. Her voice was of a good size and so so so beautiful. I saw Marc in the Verdi Requiem. She was heavenly with the biggest, most glorious high notes I ever heard plus the ability to float the voice like a lyric soprano. I also heard her sing Pace Pace Mio Dio in a joint concert. Early on she didn't have much volume down low but by that point she had developed a great Verdi chest register. She scoops a bit, but that most perfect vibrato, that smoky middle and opulent top slay me.Have a good day, sweetness.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I've decided not to vote in this match, given my "yes...but" feelings about both interpretations. But we should give credit to any soprano who can float the high, arching phrases of this aria as well as both of these ladies do.

I think these are two of the most beautiful soprano voices of the last few decades. I picked up the Marc recital disc years ago, and like Seattleoperafan I was stunned by her voice's combination of size and purity, though I listened to the collection only once and haven't felt compelled to return to it. I seem to recall a certain sameness about everything she does - which, to be fair, can be said about many singers. Fleming is the more interesting artist, sometimes too interesting for the music's own good, but never dull.

I had the wonderful experience of singing in the chorus when the Boston opera did _Louise_ in the 1970s. Boston had no opera house - still doesn't, as far as I know, though I think they've found someplace better than the convention center/airplane hanger/barn/whatever that the creative and resourceful Sarah Caldwell had to mount operas in in those days. The production was most memorable for the presence of a young Carol Neblett, who was a beautiful Louise, and the excellent Donald Gramm as her father.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I just started and wanted contemporary artists I was familiar with. I was considering a couple that you mentioned for later. More to come as interest persists, friend. Normally Callas is the artist to beat but I agree with you the state of her voice compromises her interpretation. Earlier on she could have nailed this one. I was hoping my Callas fanatic friends would forgive me not putting her into the mix even though of course her interpretation is marvelous. I just don't at all like the way she sounds in this aria at that time in her career.


Callas also sang Depuis le jour in a 1954 Martini & Rossi concert for RAI _in French_. Her voice was too unsteady to make a big splash with it, in my opinion. But one critic said: "Callas pronounces _Depuis le jour_ and Louise lives!"


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I just started and wanted contemporary artists I was familiar with. I was considering a couple that you mentioned for later. More to come as interest persists, friend. Normally Callas is the artist to beat but I agree with you the state of her voice compromises her interpretation. Earlier on she could have nailed this one. I was hoping my Callas fanatic friends would forgive me not putting her into the mix even though of course her interpretation is marvelous. I just don't at all like the way she sounds in this aria at that time in her career.


Caballe's is the benchmark performance for me, especially live ones in the 1970s. Somehow the sound of her voice conveys the rapture of Louise's first lover's loving her, even if the words are sometimes subsumed by the vocal glory. I first heard the 1979 Paris version at a party thrown by a French opera lover. It bowled over everyone!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Caballe's is the benchmark performance for me, especially live ones in the 1970s. Somehow the sound of her voice conveys the rapture of Louise's first lover's loving her, even if the words are sometimes subsumed by the vocal glory. I first heard the 1979 Paris version at a party thrown by a French opera lover. It bowled over everyone!


It is coming up and launched this for me.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I've decided not to vote in this match, given my "yes...but" feelings about both interpretations. But we should give credit to any soprano who can float the high, arching phrases of this aria as well as both of these ladies do.
> 
> I think these are two of the most beautiful soprano voices of the last few decades. I picked up the Marc recital disc years ago, and like Seattleoperafan I was stunned by her voice's combination of size and purity, though I listened to the collection only once and haven't felt compelled to return to it. I seem to recall a certain sameness about everything she does - which, to be fair, can be said about many singers. Fleming is the more interesting artist, sometimes too interesting for the music's own good, but never dull.
> 
> I had the wonderful experience of singing in the chorus when the Boston opera did _Louise_ in the 1970s. Boston had no opera house - still doesn't, as far as I know, though I think they've found someplace better than the convention center/airplane hanger/barn/whatever that the creative and resourceful Sarah Caldwell had to mount operas in in those days. The production was most memorable for the presence of a young Carol Neblett, who was a beautiful Louise, and the excellent Donald Gramm as her father.


You are getting a virtual hug as well. Nice to know I am in good company on these ladies beautiful voices.
Carol Neblett sang Minnie here years ago and was gorgeous and ideal for that b*tch of a part.
Interesting about Boston. I have seen opera done with recitalists from there before.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Callas also sang Depuis le jour in a 1954 Martini & Rossi for RAI _in French_. Her voice was too unsteady to make a big splash with it, in my opinion. But one critic said: "Callas pronounces _Depuis le jour_ and Louise lives!"


MAS, I don't know it. Her voice was unsteady in 54???? I would not expect it. The version I heard didn't do it for me as far as vocal beauty was concerned. She sang stuff in 56 that was very beautiful.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> MAS, I don't know it. Her voice was unsteady in 54???? I would not expect it. The version I heard didn't do it for me as far as vocal beauty was concerned. She sang stuff in 56 that was very beautiful.


The aria never worked for her, as it is primarily a _bella voce_ vocal aria, never Callas's strong suit. It needs a very steady emission, which Callas lacked at the time on high notes.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> MAS, I don't know it. Her voice was unsteady in 54???? I would not expect it. The version I heard didn't do it for me as far as vocal beauty was concerned. She sang stuff in 56 that was very beautiful.


I mentioned it in my post above, though I said the wrong year. MAS is right, the live one is 1954. The aria never worked quite right for Callas. She is firmer of voice, but floating high notes was never her thing.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I cannot leave this thread without playing this one whose musicality is not to be missed. Even with the old recording this rendition by Dorothy Maynor is a winner.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> I cannot leave this thread without playing this one whose musicality is not to be missed. Even with the old recording this rendition by Dorothy Maynor is a winner.


Darn, I was going to put her in the contest. She was fabulous. You were right.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> I cannot leave this thread without playing this one whose musicality is not to be missed. Even with the old recording this rendition by Dorothy Maynor is a winner.


"Angelic" is the word that comes to mind. Not the most passionate rendering, but vocally exquisite.

I've been listening to various sopranos in this aria, and have noticed something. Maynor, recorded in 1940, takes 4:43 to sing it. Marc, recorded in 1992, takes 5:45. Fleming, recorded in 1998, stretches it out to 6:28. As I listen to various sopranos, I find that the old-timers - Mary Garden, Alma Gluck, Ninon Vallin - take not much more than five minutes, and many less. Grace Moore, who was coached for a film by Charpentier himself, sings it wonderfully - as it ought to be sung, in my judgment - in 4:47. See what you think:






It's often noted that in recent decades there's been a tendency toward slower tempi in Romantic music. Among the finest interpreters I've heard, Eileen Farrell took 5:12, and Eleanor Steber 4:54 and 5:18 in different performances; both of these singers were recorded in the 1950s, and both of them capture the right mix of reverie and passion. The musical shape of "Depuis le jour" is such as to press forward with increasing urgency, toward a climax reminiscent of Isolde's "Liebestod," but in some slower performances the passion can get sacrificed to dreaminess. We might feel that a slower tempo works on its own terms; Fleming (1998), Caballe (1972) and Callas (1954) all take more than six minutes, and in individual ways use the time to lavish numerous nuances on the music which we may or may not feel are interesting, necessary or relevant. I can admire some of what they do, but I think a fairly direct approach without milking every moment best respects the music and the youthful impetuosity of a young girl swept away by romance.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

I say neither. Along Woodduck's line, I propose these two. Notice the style chasm between them and the two Americans, who basically are clueless about styles.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Darn, I was going to put her in the contest. She was fabulous. You were right.


BTW: I just noticed your question to me about who I was referring to when I said the most gorgeous, velvet voiced soprano ever (IMHO). 
Why Renee Fleming of course (and strangely, she is far from one of my top favorite sopranos -- go figure that one out.)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> BTW: I just noticed your question to me about who I was referring to when I said the most gorgeous, velvet voiced soprano ever (IMHO).
> Why Renee Fleming of course (and strangely, she is far from one of my top favorite sopranos -- go figure that one out.)


I thought that was who but I wanted to be sure. Her voice was beautiful live!!!! You know, Marilyn Monroe was not nearly as gorgeous as some other women from her period, but it was those other factors that make us remember her and not them.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I'll cast my vote for Renee Fleming: for her dreamy interpretation, tasteful use of portamenti and (for one) not overdoing the aria stylistically. Alessandra Marc is more heavy-handed and sounds a good score of years above Fleming's heroine. So that's that.


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## JanacekTheGreat (Feb 26, 2021)

ALT said:


> I say neither. Along Woodduck's line, I propose these two. Notice the style chasm between them and the two Americans, who basically are clueless about styles.


Ah, Vallin, IMHO the greatest French lyric soprano of the 20th century. Only the first few phrases of her performance bring tears to my eyes. I don't know how to explain it but there is something so deeply and mysteriously satisfying about the way she sings _"toute fleurie semble ma destinée"_.

Garden's charm shines through the antique record.

I am afraid this kind of magic is lost forever.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

JanacekTheGreat said:


> Ah, Vallin, IMHO the greatest French lyric soprano of the 20th century. Only the first few phrases of her performance bring tears to my eyes. I don't know how to explain it but there is something so deeply and mysteriously satisfying about the way she sings _"toute fleurie semble ma destinée"_.
> 
> Garden's charm shines through the antique record.
> 
> I am afraid this kind of magic is lost forever.


Garden by a mile. But still can't reach Steber. No one can!


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