# A neglected aspect of classical music?



## andante-56

Improvisation is one of the most neglected aspects of classical music, which is why I really like composers such as William Goldstein. Much like the impromptus of Chopin or Schumann, he improvises pieces with the form and structure of a normal piece, yet composed on the spot. I think he's really got a gift for this, and listening to him play inspires my personal musical creativity. He's got a video on Youtube of him improvising; my friend heard him at a masterclass and told me about him. Take a moment to watch the video or listen to his music- you'll enjoy it!


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## Yagan Kiely

Improvisation is a sport not an art, and being captured by an improviser's work is merely appreciating his skill in doing something very adequate on the spot (which is amazing!), but not appreciating the art or music.

Improvisation can/could never be as good as composition (this is a given) as it can't be made as best the composer can; you just have no time.


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## Lang

I never heard Messiaen's organ improvisations, but by all accounts they certainly qualified as art.


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## PostMinimalist

I would consider a great amount of jazz music to be art despite being improvised. Jazz players often improvise much better than they can compose. So?


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## andante-56

*a sport?*

Improvisation is not a sport or a game- it's the foundation of creativity! An improv may never be as aesthetically complex or pleasing as a piece that took two years to write, but it takes skill and talent just the same.


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## LvB

Yagan Kiely said:


> Improvisation is a sport not an art, and being captured by an improviser's work is merely appreciating his skill in doing something very adequate on the spot (which is amazing!), but not appreciating the art or music.
> 
> Improvisation can/could never be as good as composition (this is a given) as it can't be made as best the composer can; you just have no time.


This strikes me as excessive. If you were to say that even the very best improvisations are not as good as the very best written works, I would probably agree. But the idea that, for example, Beethoven's humiliating improvisation on a theme derived from the upside-down violoncello part of a Wolfl trio (itself composed on a theme of Beethoven's), or Anton Bruckner's famous improvised double fugue on an assigned theme (which led one of his examiners to say that "he should have examined us") or Anton Rubinstein's improvised variations on a theme from Beethoven's 8th symphony, which went from waltz to fugue to virtuoso showpiece were not better than the hackwork ground out by some mediocre capellmeister (or any of today's pop tune factories) simply because the former is not written down is at best implausible. Composition is a mental process, and some lucky individuals can process their musical ideas quickly enough that they can create art on the spot, as it were. Reflection might improve those ideas (or it might not), but that doesn't erase their initial value or demonstrate that written works by lesser musical thinkers are of greater value.


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## Herzeleide

Yagan Kiely said:


> Improvisation is a sport not an art, and being captured by an improviser's work is merely appreciating his skill in doing something very adequate on the spot (which is amazing!), but not appreciating the art or music.
> 
> Improvisation can/could never be as good as composition (this is a given) as it can't be made as best the composer can; you just have no time.


This is an absurd comment! I'm captured by an improviser's work when it _sounds_ really good!

In general it's true that improvisation is in general not as good as composition, and that the best music is composed, but improvisation has the quality of being _sui generis_: just listen to some of Miles Davis's amazing albums, or Charlie Parker's or John Coltrane's: it sounds amazing.

And, BTW, I ought to point out that the trend of indeterminacy amongst a fair few contemporary composers shows that improv has not disappeared, and that many a formidable musician values improvisation.


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## PostMinimalist

What about improvising at the Olympics?!?
I would take part in the 400bars Freestyle Relay and cut out the last 25 bars to break the tape first over the finish line just because it's improvising! then on to the High note and the Long note, and then the Triple note! 24bar with hurdles would also be fun - sing the olympic hymn with someone throwing wet sponges at you! The 'field' is wide open so to speak!
FC


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## PostMinimalist

The minute waltz would obviously be included in the sprint!

My best time for John Cage's 4:33 is strangely 4:33! no matter how I try it always come out the same!?!
is there some thing I can improve?


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## Weston

When in doubt, it sometimes works to compare the arts. I know in the visual arts, if you try too long to compose a painting for instance, it can too easily become contrived, whereas more improvisation may keep it fresher. In reality there is a spectrum and I would say the highest art uses a combination of the two ends of the spectrum.

It also depends on the intent of the piece and the expectations of the listener. Jazz pieces work because of the dialogue between the musicicans, but we all know they probably couldn't modulate to some improbably remote key while doing this - unless they're Miles Davis maybe. 

After saying all that, I have to admit most improvisations, jazz or otherwise, are more like interesting diversions to my main diet of minutely composed works.


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## Herzeleide

Weston said:


> but we all know they probably couldn't modulate to some improbably remote key while doing this - unless they're Miles Davis maybe.


Not just Miles - swift modulations were and are _de rigeur _in bebop, and culminated in the _tour de force __Giant Steps _by John Coltrane, which features a positively arcane labyrinth of chord progressions which move so swiftly through keys at such a fast tempo that it's almost redundant talking about the concept of modulation.


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## jurianbai

i wonder how classical musician jammed together without any score sheet that they can play along. without any memory on one pieces they should play. so i think improvisation is the solution. 

from instrumentalist point of view, improvisation maybe more pleasure. while from composer p.o.v composing is more. I would still say material from improvised session is a music and an art.


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## Yagan Kiely

> I'm captured by an improviser's work when it _sounds_ really good!


Agreed, but as everyone is saying (including you), it is not as good at composition, and thus to appreciate it as much as composition you are _not_ appreciating the _music_ but the skill of the music. They are different things. I appreciate the skill of tennis player.

Yes I am talking to the extreme, but what I am saying is true to a small extent.


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## PostMinimalist

Yagan Kiely said:


> Agreed, but as everyone is saying (including you), it is not as good at composition,...


Not everyone. In my first post I actually said that a lot of jazz players improvise much better than they can compose. Take Bill Evans for example. His own compositions are often either too convoluted or too trite but his improvising skills are where he really takes your breath away. I'd hate to hear even the greatest performance of 'Waltz for Debbie' and not hear the improvisation he plays after the theme. On the other hand I could listen to the improvisation without hearing the theme.

It is possibly wrong to confuse composition with improvisation since different parts of the brain are are utlized in the two. It's not the same as doing simple math in your head and then on paper. Improvisation is more like answering a long stream of simple but related math questions aurally while composition is like resolving a single long 2nd degree differential equation on paper which you can hone to produce an elegant solution to a complex engineering problem.


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## Herzeleide

Yagan Kiely said:


> Agreed, but as everyone is saying (including you), it is not as good at composition, and thus to appreciate it as much as composition you are _not_ appreciating the _music_ but the skill of the music. They are different things. I appreciate the skill of tennis player.
> 
> Yes I am talking to the extreme, but what I am saying is true to a small extent.


Hmm read what I said again. I said _in general_.

Appreciate it as much as composition? 

I'm afraid I haven't the foggiest about what you're on about. I appreciate something _as music_.

You're talking arrant nonsense. The best compositions are better than the best improvisations (but - for example, some of Bach's keyboard works have their origins in his improvisation, and Beethoven would improvise at the piano to develop ideas) but the best improvisations are still better than many compositions!


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## toughcritic

In order to improvise one must have vast knowledge of musical genres and styles, natural inclination as well as sharp, highly developed mind. It is too bad that hardly any artists of today ever improvise during their recitals/concerts. My humble opinion, very few can, and even fewer do it well.


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## Bgroovy2

This is a Hoot! People who say that they know classical music don't know that the first historicly recorded improves came from the Opera in the 17th centry...Hmmm opera in the 17th centry, that would be classical music, right?


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## msegers

*Lang* said he had never heard Messiaen's organ improvisations. There is one on YouTube:


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## Guest

toughcritic said:


> In order to improvise one must have vast knowledge of musical genres and styles, natural inclination as well as sharp, highly developed mind. It is too bad that hardly any artists of today ever improvise during their recitals/concerts. My humble opinion, very few can, and even fewer do it well.


I'm can't agree 100%, when I first started in Jazz, the front line 'Tpt Tbone Clt' were around grade 3, these players were great improvisers they had to be because there was no written music any where, *except *that I had a copy of the chords off the Guitar/banjo player. That was all we had and we played for about 2 1/2hrs with no double ups. just the odd Beer


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