# First Decca LP release of Solti Ring?



## musicologyman (Nov 8, 2011)

I'm looking for information on the first release by Decca of the complete Solti Ring in a single package. I'm aware of the luxurious packaging of the 1970 release, but was there an earlier release? If so, how was it packaged? 

musicologyman


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Discogs lists 17 releases

https://www.discogs.com/Wagner-Geor...rge-London-2-Set-Svanholm-Gusta/master/626208


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## musicologyman (Nov 8, 2011)

I'm aware of the Discogs page, but I'm not convinced that the image show for the 1967 release is accurate. The image for that release on Discogs (and others of the same package) seems to be from a release from the 1970s. By that time, if I'm not mistaken, record companies were issuing multi-LP recordings in lighter-weight boxes with covers printed on glossy paper, and they usually carried the design onto to the spine (which previously had been black with album information printed in a gold, sans-serif typeface). But perhaps I'm mistaken? Can someone confirm (perhaps someone who actually owns that release)?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I think that if you search for the record numbers + titles in the Google pictures function, you'll be able to check & verify the Discogs info, for example, regarding these 3 early releases,

https://www.popsike.com/SOLTIWAGNER-DER-RING-DES-NIBELUNGEN-19LPBOOK-SEALED/310274353253.html
https://www.oxfam.org.uk/shop/music...belungen-box-set-19xlp-d-100d-19-hd_101173357

https://www.popsike.com/SOLTI-WAGNE...P-WOODEN-LTD-BOX-SET-AS-NEW/182367899271.html


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## musicologyman (Nov 8, 2011)

Okay, good: I'd performed the Google image search, but I'd not seen the oxfam page. I was wrong about the early packaging.
Thanks!


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

The information on that Oxfam page is wrong I think. That is a 1970s Decca issue of Solti's ring cycle. In the 60s decca box sets were usually given SET prefixes. In the 70s Decca started - I believe - using box set refs like D 100D 19. Or for example - the ashkenazy Beethoven PCs or Solti Beethoven sy had this type of ref. In 1967 this was still the day of wide band SXLs and the narrow band LPs in that Wagner set look very much like 1970s LPs.

I know nothing about the London set.

The horrible ugly 1970 so called luxury set is I think the earliest UK issue of the whole solti Ring.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I had US/London boxes of the individual operas from the late 1960s. The covers were unmemorably ugly and the spines were black with printing on them.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I can't prove for sure the date of the UK LP boxes D100D19, but Discogs only started registering classical music in 2007
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discogs

There are however earlier/early sources also stating the information about the cover for a 1968-release; they'd have to be wrong as well:
2006 https://www.popsike.com/WAGNER-THE-RING-CYCLE-SOLTI-19LP-DECCA-BOX-SET-D100D19/4841271131.html
2006 https://www.popsike.com/DECCA-BOX-SET-D100D19-WAGNER-THE-RING-CYCLE-19LP-UK/4855433670.html
2009 https://www.popsike.com/WAGNER-THE-RING-CYCLE-SOLTI-19LP-DECCA-BOX-SET-D100D19/290378967740.html

Unfortunately, reviews from back then, with dates and the record numbers for early UK releases of the boxes, don't seem to be generally available on the internet (Gramophone, for example)


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

joen_cph said:


> I can't prove for sure the date of the UK LP boxes D100D19, but Discogs only started registering classical music in 2007
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discogs
> 
> There are however earlier/early sources also stating the information about the cover for a 1968-release; they'd have to be wrong as well:
> ...


You cant trust information about release dates for those solti sets on popsike because this is just what ebay sellers have stated in their listings and they are often wrong.

anybody who collects classical LPs knows that the information about when an LP was actually made available to the market is not printed anywhere on the product. Dates on the product could be recording date - when first published etc.

so these sources are UNRELIABLE

https://waxvinylrecords.co.uk/shop/...ing-des-nibelungen-decca-19-lp-set-d-100d1-9/

this seller believes the set is an early 80s edition

I think he is wrong.

I could be wrong about it being an early 70s set but we need something definitive - I m going mainly on the style of boxing and packaging and also the LPs look similar to those made by decca in the early to mid 70s plus of course the D 100D1 9 number


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

stomanek said:


> You cant trust information about release dates for those solti sets on popsike because this is just what ebay sellers have stated in their listings and they are often wrong.
> 
> anybody who collects classical LPs knows that the information about when an LP was actually made available to the market is not printed anywhere on the product. Dates on the product could be recording date - when first published etc.
> 
> so these sources are UNRELIABLE


There are many cases where the correct release year is printed on the cover. It depends on the period and the label.

I just grabbed a Decca/Argo LP box in my collection, the Sibelius songs with Söderström etc. 411 739-1. The C & P dates say 1984 on the LPs themselves and on the liner notes. There is no date on the cover. 
Inside, there's a page from the original Gramophone review, from February 1985, with the same release number.

I took another Decca/Eclipse, the Bliss Violin Concerto ecs783. Obviously, this is a re-release of an old mono recording. The cover says C 1976, which is when that edition was released, whereas the original recording is from 1957, released at least on the London label, LL1398.

I took a third Decca release, Bruckner's 3rd with Chailly, 417 093-1, from when it was originally relased. The cover says P & C 1986, the record label as well. Which is correct.

I took a fourth Decca release, Schmidt chamber works, SDD 471, P & C on the cover and the LP label is 1975 - 1976, which is correct: https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/schmidt-chamber-music

The Wagner D100D19 is maybe from ~1968, but this could perhaps be disproven - however, by concrete means, not assumptions. There is apparently no date on the LP box itself, but there may be in the liner notes.

An indication that it could be later would perhaps be the cover illustration style, which is maybe a little more into the 70s, more modern than that of the 'luxury edition'. If so, the year 1968 would then just be a year when the production was somehow considered finished, maybe mentioned in the liner notes.

But the finished Decca London release of the Ring was certainly from 1967:
https://books.google.dk/books?id=aS...e&q=wagner ring-s-1 london solti 1967&f=false


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The operas were first issued sequentially with quite long gaps between issues ... at least I think that is now I remember my parents buying them. Vinyl, obviously. I don't know how or when the first full set was issued.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I now see that some sources say that the DeLuxe edition of 22 LPs came in 1968, not 1970:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Feb10/Wagner_Ring_ESSD90021-34.htm

The backgound information for a more recent Esoteric release of the Solti Ring also says that it was based on a 22-LP set from 1968: http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/essd90021_34/indexe.html

In that case, Stomanek could be right in the sense, that if there's a mentioning of 1968 in say the liner notes of D100D19, this could be because it is a re-release (from the 70s?) of that 1968 Deluxe-material. So that the Discogs info doesn't hold. But it's still not a total proof, or say anything about the release date of D100D19 then.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

joen_cph said:


> There are many cases where the correct release year is printed on the cover. It depends on the period and the label.
> 
> I just grabbed a Decca/Argo LP box in my collection, the Sibelius songs with Söderström etc. 411 739-1. The C & P dates say 1984 on the LPs themselves and on the liner notes. There is no date on the cover.
> Inside, there's a page from the original Gramophone review, from February 1985, with the same release number.
> ...


I think what I meant to say was the dates found on the notes, LP or sleeve do not always tell you when a product was released. "Produced 1969" obviously means the end product was made in 1969. Yet the recording may have been made in 1961 and the LP may not have gone on sale until 1971. 411 739-1 is a good example of this as you say - 1984 printed on the liner notes - and 1985 Gramophone review looks like it may have been released in 1985 not 1984.

I agree we need facts about the Solti Ring and I am basing my opinion on familiarity with Decca's production styles over the years and their policy of introducing lower price editions years after full price.

1968 in the liner notes - still could have been several years later that Decca actually released it and made the outer box which you agree looks more 70s than 60s - as the luxury edition was selling well and releasing a budget version of the ring at that time would not have been good business practice.

As you know premium full price editions always come first (eg Decca SXL first then later ace of diamonds/ asd/sax then later concert classics MFP CFP etc etc) - so my hypothesis is likely to be correct.

Despite all this - if I'm wrong so be it. Still waiting for more information.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

joen_cph said:


> I now see that some sources say that the DeLuxe edition of 22 LPs came in 1968, not 1970:
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Feb10/Wagner_Ring_ESSD90021-34.htm
> 
> The backgound information for a more recent Esoteric release of the Solti Ring also says that it was based on a 22-LP set from 1968: http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/essd90021_34/indexe.html
> ...


That is certainly a possibility and it is a re-issue of the deluxe set so would make sense. There are late 70s Decca LPs - Jubilee series - that have the original release dates on the rear cover or LP. Something that causes confusion.

There is I think a commentary LP on the deluxe set that was not included in the later set but we can set that aside.

In fact there are 22 Lps in the deluxe box and just 19 in the later set. So there is more material in the deluxe box and it is Derek Cooke's introduction to the ring on 3 LPs I believe.

I have a friend who is a lifelong SXL and Decca collector if he knows about the release date of D100D19 so am waiting to hear from him. He may know something useful.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Recordings are of course not by principle released in the year of the recording - it may take years. More recently, Naxos is an example, sometimes I've noticed that it can take 2-3 (4?) years, until a product is actually released; I'm talking about original Naxos productions, not those taken from other labels or Marco Polo.

Further on, reviews may also only be written some time after the release. Of course, that's among the possible explanations of the review of the Sibelius set from late 1984 coming only in February 1985. I've worked in a place where they received reviewing materials, also local productions, & there could be major delays in the review being published, for various reasons.

I know about the _Ace of Diamonds_ LP series being considered re-issues, but funnily, in the case of the Schmidt Piano Quintet SDD 471, I haven't found any earlier releases so far; not on any other label either. The recording itself was made in 1974, the SDD came in 1976, and there was also a Decca London release from 1977. 
I think the same applies to John McCabe's 2 LPs with Nielsen's piano music SDD 475,476 (1975, recorded 1973-74). 
So those could have been originally released as a budget LPs.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

joen_cph said:


> Recordings are of course not by principle released in the year of the recording - it may take years. More recently, Naxos is an example, sometimes I've noticed that it can take 2-3 (4?) years, until a product is actually released; I'm talking about original Naxos productions, not those taken from other labels or Marco Polo.
> 
> Further on, reviews may also only be written some time after the release. Of course, that's among the possible explanations of the review of the Sibelius set from late 1984 coming only in February 1985. I've worked in a place where they received reviewing materials, also local productions, & there could be major delays in the review being published, for various reasons.
> 
> ...


I dont think decca considered it was worth wasting an sxl number on schmidt so they lumped him on an SDD

SDD was a re-issue label though - an excellent one mind - super pressings


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

joen_cph said:


> Recordings are of course not by principle released in the year of the recording - it may take years. More recently, Naxos is an example, sometimes I've noticed that it can take 2-3 (4?) years, until a product is actually released; I'm talking about original Naxos productions, not those taken from other labels or Marco Polo.
> 
> Further on, reviews may also only be written some time after the release. Of course, that's among the possible explanations of the review of the Sibelius set from late 1984 coming only in February 1985. I've worked in a place where they received reviewing materials, also local productions, & there could be major delays in the review being published, for various reasons.
> 
> ...


Sometimes Ace of Diamonds did issue first releases in their SDD series for material Decca didn't think would sell well at full price. The Franz Schmidt was so issued in the UK and I snapped it up when it came out. A wonderful record.

I've just finished reading Decca's 90th Anniversary book, 'The Supreme Record Company: The Story of Decca Records 1929-2019'. It says there that the first issue of Solti's complete set of the 'Ring' was in December, 1968.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

David Phillips said:


> Sometimes Ace of Diamonds did issue first releases in their SDD series for material Decca didn't think would sell well at full price. The Franz Schmidt was so issued in the UK and I snapped it up when it came out. A wonderful record.
> 
> I've just finished reading Decca's 90th Anniversary book, 'The Supreme Record Company: The Story of Decca Records 1929-2019'. *It says there that the first issue of Solti's complete set of the 'Ring' was in December, 1968.*


I assume that is the luxury box RING1-22

that must then confirm the box we are talking about is indeed a 70s set and 1968 being in the booklet refers to the original issue


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

David Phillips said:


> Sometimes Ace of Diamonds did issue first releases in their SDD series for material Decca didn't think would sell well at full price. The Franz Schmidt was so issued in the UK and I snapped it up when it came out. A wonderful record.
> 
> I've just finished reading Decca's 90th Anniversary book, 'The Supreme Record Company: The Story of Decca Records 1929-2019'. It says there that the first issue of Solti's complete set of the 'Ring' was in December, 1968.


They also put stereo editions onto ace of diamonds where a mono only earlier rec had been released. For example Karl Bohm's superb Cosi Fan Tutte which appeared on LXT but not SXL. It came out in stereo on ace of diamonds


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

David Phillips said:


> I've just finished reading Decca's 90th Anniversary book, 'The Supreme Record Company: The Story of Decca Records 1929-2019'. It says there that the first issue of Solti's complete set of the 'Ring' was in December, 1968.


I think it came out with Deryk Cooke's Talk on The Ring as a bonus. Of course in those days it was a really expensive proposition at £2 a disc when you think that a pretty good wage in UK was £20 a week. I remember the sales pitch for Walkure with a ridiculous picture of Solti trying to look like the Thinker!


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

DavidA said:


> I think it came out with Deryk Cooke's Talk on The Ring as a bonus. Of course in those days it was a really expensive proposition at £2 a disc when you think that a pretty good wage in UK was £20 a week. I remember the sales pitch for Walkure with a ridiculous picture of Solti trying to look like the Thinker!


I dont think the so called luxury box sold that well. I was a classical LP dealer for 10 years and only saw it in a handful of collections. I think since many wagner fans already had the individual releases which were on superior thick vinyl - it would have made poor sense to buy the set just for the extra material.

Horrible design anyway.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

stomanek said:


> I dont think the so called luxury box sold that well. I was a classical LP dealer for 10 years and only saw it in a handful of collections. I think since many wagner fans already had the individual releases which were on superior thick vinyl - it would have made poor sense to buy the set just for the extra material.
> 
> Horrible design anyway.


I was one of those with poor sense. I bought my set in 1972 from a record store ( now long defunct) in Union Street in Glasgow. I remember the guy behind the desk looking askance at me as I asked him to lift it out of the locked display case that held it. I sold it on eBay about four years ago for considerably more than I paid for it. I had a cd release of it and I'd tracked down the Deryck Cooke CDs as well so I thought, regardless of how nice a package it looked on my shelves, that's all it was, a nice looking box that never got played. I would take out the booklets to look at the nice Rackham drawings now and again but I even found a book with all of those too! Life goes on.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> I was one of those with poor sense. I bought my set in 1972 from a record store ( now long defunct) in Union Street in Glasgow. I remember the guy behind the desk looking askance at me as I asked him to lift it out of the locked display case that held it. *I sold it on eBay about four years ago for considerably more than I paid for it.* I had a cd release of it and I'd tracked down the Deryck Cooke CDs as well so I thought, regardless of how nice a package it looked on my shelves, that's all it was, a nice looking box that never got played. I would take out the booklets to look at the nice Rackham drawings now and again but I even found a book with all of those too! Life goes on.


I wonder if this is allowing for inflation? You can get the Ring relatively so cheap these days on CD. In fact all opera esepcially second hand. One thing we do miss out on however is the wonderful 12 inch booklets which were a joy. I had one for my Rigoletto set which lost when I lent it to a school and the LPs came back minus the booklet!


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

DavidA said:


> I wonder if this is allowing for inflation? You can get the Ring relatively so cheap these days on CD. In fact all opera esepcially second hand. One thing we do miss out on however is the wonderful 12 inch booklets which were a joy. I had one for my Rigoletto set which lost when I lent it to a school and the LPs came back minus the booklet!


I just checked on ebay and RING1-22 can be had for between £100 and £200 pounds.

In 1972 that was about £10-£20.

Interested though that he bought his in 1972. The LPs in RING1-22 look more like 70s LPs than 60s. Maybe production was complete on the booklet and recordings by 1968 but the LPs were pressed in the early 70s?

This would also fit in with my idea that the later set was a mid 70s issue


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