# Beethoven Often Forgets to Breathe



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I feel he doesn't leave enough space in his music, and is always trying to cram as many notes as possible into a bar.

There are exceptions like mvt 1 of Moonlight, but you get the idea.


Agree or disagree?


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I feel he doesn't leave enough space in his music, and is always trying to cram as many notes as possible into a bar.
> 
> There are exceptions like mvt 1 of Moonlight, but you get the idea.
> 
> Agree or disagree?


Might depend heavily on the performer / conductor. 'Breathing' is often about reducing volume at the end of a phrase...but certainly the composer should have appropriate pauses.


----------



## AY Goat (May 26, 2021)

Agree to some extent, I can't stand some of his sonatas. He used many eighth notes in the moonlight sonata which is kind of soft. But, he goes nuts sometimes and uses lots of sixteenth notes loudly without any rests, which l find disturbing sometimes.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I feel he doesn't leave enough space in his music, and is always trying to cram as many notes as possible into a bar.
> 
> There are exceptions like mvt 1 of Moonlight, but you get the idea.
> 
> Agree or disagree?


Can you give an example?


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Lots of the 9th symphony seems to have "too many notes".


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Several of his Sonatas for piano too. Third Mvt of Moonlight for example.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Don't agree one bit. If you're coming from a New Age / Ambient, or Satie sort of approach where musical ideas aren't strung end-to-end, then maybe. Beethoven's music breathes more than Bach.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Even the 6th symphony feels like too much is going on. Not so much within one bar, but with how many ideas are developing sequentially.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Don't agree one bit. If you're coming from a New Age / Ambient, or Satie sort of approach where musical ideas aren't strung end-to-end, then maybe. Beethoven's music breathes more than Bach.


I can't agree there. I think Bach flows much more naturally.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Don't agree one bit. If you're coming from a New Age / Ambient, or Satie sort of approach where musical ideas aren't strung end-to-end, then maybe. Beethoven's music breathes more than Bach.


Neither of them breathe as much as my main boy Wolfie!


----------



## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> Don't agree one bit. If you're coming from a New Age / Ambient, or Satie sort of approach where musical ideas aren't strung end-to-end, then maybe. Beethoven's music breathes more than Bach.


That's why Bach is sometimes difficult to listen to, especially on first hearing.

It almost sounds unmusical at times.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I love the first movement of Beethoven's first symphony. Classical and awesome!


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

16:41 ~ 18:36


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I have multiple responses:

1. Confronted with a timeless body of keyboard music: "Too many notes." 

2. The piano is not a wind instrument.

3. Adapting Jonathan Swift's quip to modern times (although the original is equally apt in the instance): "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign:" People on the internet start threads like this about him.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I feel he doesn't leave enough space in his music, and is always trying to cram as many notes as possible into a bar.
> 
> There are exceptions like mvt 1 of Moonlight, but you get the idea.
> 
> Agree or disagree?


What about the spaces between the chords which open the Eroica symphony? Some people think they're the greatest spaces in the whole of music.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> The premise is nonsense, which would become obvious as soon as someone asks which notes shouldn't be there.


The first two notes of the third movement of op 106?


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> What about the spaces between the chords which open the Eroica symphony? Some people think they're the greatest spaces in the whole of music.






use of "pauses" in the first movement


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Phil loves classical said:


> Beethoven's music breathes more than Bach.


But this seems partly a fault of the "seamless" baroque style (especially in some instrumental pieces) and of a certain kind of breathless interpretation. And the organ does not need to breathe and the reverb of the church space often spoils the articulation that is possible.
But even considering all this, I'd agree that "too many notes" fits Bach far better than Beethoven (or Mozart to whom the Emperor supposedly said this).

Still, one should play the notes. Listen to Kempff's Goldberg variations. He skips the embellishments in the aria (incl. the ones written out!) and it sounds completely strange...


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

While I like Bach's approach and don't find fault in the flow of his music, I agree that the idea of Beethoven's music breathing less doesn't quite make sense, except perhaps in terms of the flow of Beethoven's music more often leans towards trying to fit a lot of different musical ideas into a small space of time. 

In terms of structural proportions I find Bach and Mozart better (I suspect they both were more concerned with proportions and the 'golden ratio' than Beethoven etc.). In comparison Beethoven often sprawls, delays, goes through side turns, and just when you think he is wrapping up an idea, he surprises you by drawing it out even longer. He also includes many different emotional qualities in a single work. So for me in terms of structure the 'too many notes' criticism applies more to Beethoven than Bach or Mozart. But obviously its something that is reflective of our tastes. For those that love Beethoven's approach the amount of notes will seem just right.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I feel that way about Bach, especially some of the keyboard stuff, far more often. I actually feel like Beethoven's penchant for dramatic pauses and inhale-_tension_-exhale type patterns makes this less of a problem with him than other composers. Even pieces that would seem like too many notes at first, like the outer movements of the Appasionata, actually have lots of "breathing."

The first name that comes to my mind reading your description is someone like Scriabin. Some earlier stuff excepted, it seems like none of his melodies ever get to breathe before they're mortared with wild ornamentation and drunken-haze phrasing.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I think all music by the Masters breathe in one way or another. Adding variety with different durations, dynamics, rhythmic patterns or switching the melody to a different voice are just some, even in the case of Bach where at least one voice is always playing. The stacking of ideas can have an effect of momentum, or exhilaration like a roller coaster ride.











BTW, notice Rosseau is a way better pianist for an internet star than Valentina Lisitsa


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Lots of the 9th symphony seems to have "too many notes".


I believe a certain emperor is adjudged ti have said the same to Mozart. I would say the 9th has just enough notes.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I think I prefer early Beethoven!


----------



## EnescuCvartet (Dec 16, 2016)

Disagree. Beethoven could be stertorous at times, sure, but he didn't have musical apnea. Try the late string quartets, or the very steady, even shallow breathing technique of the adagio from the Hammerklavier.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Singers always complain, of course. But the Duet "O namenlose Freude" seems quite breathless, but deliberately so, I'd guess. As far as actual breathing problems go the extended "wo dein sa-ha-ha-a...........ha-hanfter Flügel weilt" from towards the end of the 9th finale is probably also challenging.
In fact, the only piece where I got the impression, that Beethoven sometimes tried to do too much at once and it was impossible to follow is the "Missa solemnis", Gloria and Credo (the other movements are not as dense/overloaded). Admittedly, the two live performances I attended were with non-professional choir and provincial orchestras in spaces that might not have been ideal. Sure, there is a lot going on in many parts of e.g. Bach's b minor mass or St Matthew but I have heard these more often from similar partly professional outfits and apart from too much church reverb it was never as confusing as the Beethoven, I think it is probably because the choir and orchestra are more clearly grouped into distinct choirs in Bach. Verdi Requiem (albeit in a larger hall) was unproblematic, simple and straightforward (Trumpets on the balconies was a very cool effect).


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> The first two notes of the third movement of op 106?


That's an interesting case. I think if there's an issue with those notes, it's not with their existence per se, but with the need for it, an issue that goes way beyond the isolated moment and the scope of a short post. So, staying in the moment: F# minor, the key of the Adagio and its first chord, is exceedingly remote from Bb major, the key of the scherzo. Moving directly from the Bb major triad at the end of the scherzo to the F# minor triad beginning the Adagio causes the ear (well, mine at least) to retrospectively reinterpret the F from the Bb chord as E#, the leading tone of F# minor.* Beethoven likely wanted to neutralize this effect, and the A and C# octaves beginning the Adagio certainly accomplish this. The rhythm of measure 5 echoes that of the first, which helps to integrate that opening "transitional measure." So, I'd say those notes have/had(?) an indispensable function, albeit one not so apparent or urgent to modern ears as it would have been to those of Beethoven's contemporaries, for whom such distant relationships were still striking.

*And that F is prominent because it is the 5th of the chord and its lowest note, an unstable inversion of the triad.


----------



## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

My opinion is "No" considering all the great slow movements he wrote. Also, he broke so many rules of the classical style, which could make his pieces sound vastly different from his contemporaries.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Beethoven and J.S. Bach are harder for singers than other composers ... not necessarily because of the quantity of notes but the range that is required of singers.

Like everything else he did, Beethoven challenged the range of every instrument including the human voice.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> That's an interesting case. I think if there's an issue with those notes, it's not with their existence per se, but with the need for it, an issue that goes way beyond the isolated moment and the scope of a short post. So, staying in the moment: F# minor, the key of the Adagio and its first chord, is exceedingly remote from Bb major, the key of the scherzo. Moving directly from the Bb major triad at the end of the scherzo to the F# minor triad beginning the Adagio causes the ear (well, mine at least) to retrospectively reinterpret the F from the Bb chord as E#, the leading tone of F# minor.* Beethoven likely wanted to neutralize this effect, and the A and C# octaves beginning the Adagio certainly accomplish this. The rhythm of measure 5 echoes that of the first, which helps to integrate that opening "transitional measure." So, I'd say those notes have/had(?) an indispensable function, albeit one not so apparent or urgent to modern ears as it would have been to those of Beethoven's contemporaries, for whom such distant relationships were still striking.
> 
> *And that F is prominent because it is the 5th of the chord and its lowest note, an unstable inversion of the triad.


Very good. I can't find the source for this, but I'm sure I read somewhere that he added them in - that in the notebooks you see him work out the start of the movement, move on and then at some point, he goes back to it and adds those two notes.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I agree. Lynyrd Skynyrd also had too many guitarists (you only need one, surely?) and Bob Dylan's songs have way too many words (Hurricane should have had just one verse and chorus).


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Very good. I can't find the source for this, but I'm sure I read somewhere that he added them in - that in the notebooks you see him work out the start of the movement, move on and then at some point, he goes back to it and adds those two notes.


Your choosing those notes for special attention makes perfect sense to me with or without supporting evidence. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Beethoven struggled with that decision because it strikes me too as a problematic passage.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Beethoven Often Forgets to Breathe*

I can't speak for Beethoven, but I find that much of this composer's music takes _my_ breath away. Fortunately, I haven't yet passed out or needed hospitalization and/or supplemental oxygen. But who knows? Maybe that is yet to come. Still, I'll face the risk. I'll take a deep breath and dive in. I'm not ready to give up on Beethoven, yet.


----------



## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

So that’s how he died.


----------



## Charlie Mac (May 23, 2015)

Phil loves classical said:


> Don't agree one bit. If you're coming from a New Age / Ambient, or Satie sort of approach where musical ideas aren't strung end-to-end, then maybe. Beethoven's music breathes more than Bach.


Beethoven practically invented the ambient, minimalist style with the 'Heiliger Dankgesang eines Genesenen...'


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

What do you find minimalist about this movement? 
As for "ambient" one can apparently use Perotinus, Palestrina or a slow Vivaldi movement for "ambient", so this is almost universally applicable for slowish, quiet music.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Merl said:


> I agree. Lynyrd Skynyrd also had too many guitarists (you only need one, surely?) and Bob Dylan's songs have way too many words (Hurricane should have had just one verse and chorus).


:lol::lol:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, frankly, the only composer I (admittedly jestingly) accused of using too many notes was Mendelssohn -- whose chamber music sounded to me as if he were deathly afraid of the music grinding unexpectedly to a halt, so he wrote in a lot more notes to keep that from happening.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Merl said:


> I agree. Lynyrd Skynyrd also had too many guitarists (you only need one, surely?) and Bob Dylan's songs have way too many words (Hurricane should have had just one verse and chorus).


I laughed, good one!


----------



## Symphonic (Apr 27, 2015)

Yes this is true. I think the lack of 'breathing space' adds an intensity to his music. 
Continuous unfiltered thoughts, continuous unfiltered passion.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

BTW I think "forget to breathe" and "too many notes" are rather different aspects. They can sometimes be the same as in "perpetual motion" pieces. These are quite frequent in the baroque period but also e.g. Beethoven's 4th symphony finale (I don't think these pieces are typical for Beethoven, though), Schumann Toccata, Chopin 2nd sonata finale etc. 

Far more characteristic for Beethoven are sudden contrasts (I once read in a comment/review that Beethoven could turn on a penny), there are few composers with so many sforzati, sfp, and subito piano in he, i.e. Beethoven is not particularly loud, but dynamic changes are sudden or even explosive and the accents are very strong. In fact, I cannot think of any composer before the early 20th century "barbaro" style of Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev that has these aspect so pronounced.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Some very true posts in this thread thus far. Beethoven poured passion and drama into his music, and that really hits home for his fans.

I like the delicacy, and steady feel to the Classical era music.


I find the Baroque to lack good diverse melodies, but that's an overstatement for sure.


----------

