# Michael Jackson-Most Overrated Of All Time



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Everything in popular music is overrated, as overrated as McDonald's fries, or as Krispy Kreme doughnuts.

It's the nature of mass marketing.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Michael Jackson is not over-rated. 

Michael Jackson was an incredibly gifted performer whose style captured the imagination of millions of fans during the 1980s. His records were extremely well produced, often by Quincy Jones, and his song selection was impeccable. His videos were short films and works of art.

I was never a fan, there are many other singers I like a whole lot more - but I can recognize his talent and accomplishments.

The comment that "everything in popular music is overrated" is ridiculous.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> Michael Jackson is not over-rated.


That's just, like, your opinion, man...



> The comment that "everything in popular music is overrated" is ridiculous.


Everything in popular culture is overrated.

If I'm wrong, then the Greatest Work of Art Ever Made is the cycle of Avengers movies, J. K. Rowling's _Harry Potter_ series is the Greatest Literature of All Time, Thomas Kinkade is the Great Painter Who Ever Lived, and Irving Berlin's "White Christmas" is the Greatest Piece of Music Ever Written.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't particularly want to get into a p***ing contest but MJ certainly wasn't the all-round talent/self-sufficient entity that Prince was. In that respect I would also go as far to say that he lagged behind Stevie Wonder and Sly Stone as well. Jackson was gifted in one or two respects but what he was capable of overall was outweighed, and thus distorted, by the combined sales of his albums. The ideas put forward by the more fanatical cult-like factions of his fan base that he bestrode the music world like a colossus and that no-one else came remotely close before or during his career were as toe-curling as they were preposterous.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

N.B. "overrated" should never, _ever_ be taken as a synonym for "not good."

Popular culture, as swept along by economic forces and driven by mass marketing, overrates everything. Of course it does. It's in its nature.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

> That's just, like, your opinion, man...


As are all posts on the forum, man ...



> Popular culture, as swept along by economic forces and driven by mass marketing, overrates everything. Of course it does. It's in its nature.


You are equating major sales with over-rated. I think that some artists have been met with high critical praise, some despite poor sales, others in spite of their success. I don't agree that the critical press covering popular music is so slipshod that they have "over-rated everything."

That is just a bit too reductive and superficial of a comment.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Knorf said:


> Everything in popular culture is overrated.
> 
> If I'm wrong, then the Greatest Work of Art Ever Made is the cycle of Avengers movies, J. K. Rowling's _Harry Potter_ series is the Greatest Literature of All Time, Thomas Kinkade is the Great Painter Who Ever Lived, and Irving Berlin's "White Christmas" is the Greatest Piece of Music Ever Written.


Your comment makes sense only if a significant number of people have actually made those claims--which they haven't. As SanAntone indicates, plenty of works enjoy popular success without being hailed as "the best ever."


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

All legendary figures are overrated. It's 2021, we don't do Great Man Theory anymore, man.

Good tunes, though.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> Michael Jackson is not over-rated.
> 
> Michael Jackson was an incredibly gifted performer whose style captured the imagination of millions of fans during the 1980s. His records were extremely well produced, often by Quincy Jones, and his song selection was impeccable. His videos were short films and works of art.
> 
> ...


Very nice short summing up of his talent and accomplishments.

Yeah, Michael Jackson's influence on popular music and culture is actually pretty profound.

As with many of whom we can recognize as such, he did seem to have considerable help from another, Quincy Jones, although I'm not really sure of just HOW MUCH. Jackson also had an instinct for self-promotion, and he had the product to back it up, regardless of how it was manufactured.

Earlier this year I bludgeoned my way through most of his video catalog, and musically it's consistently good, and cinematically the videos were mostly excellent.

*I do find it irritating* that I cannot help but hear (and watch) his stuff without his creepy personal life tainting it; the weird obsession with young boys, and the chronic facial surgeries that eventually made him look somewhat like a horror film character, with the remnants of a nose, and that cartoony built up cleft chin, AND the transformation from black man to white man.



There's already been comparisons to *Prince*, and that's fair. Two black musicians that captivated fans, both with a catalog of music that's impressive.

Musically I'd actually have to give the edge to Prince; in addition to his skills as a songwriter and singer, he also was an excellent guitarist.



*JUST ONE OTHER THING*: _THAT_ is really one of the most UNFLATTERING video screen shots of Jackson that could have been used.

Between that and the title of the video I can already guess what sort of vibe the video is going to have.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

He had a lot of talent/skill (talent is not enough, one also must work very hard). I was never a fan. Too bad he messed up his face. Guess it doesn't matter now.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

He's got a few ahead of him on the list of most over-rated pop stars. Kanye West, and Beyonce for starters.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

starthrower said:


> He's got a few ahead of him on the list of most over-rated pop stars. Kanye West, and Beyonce for starters.


I do rate Beyonce's voice - such a pity that the pro-forma r 'n' b slop which is constantly dished up for her will never do it proper justice.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> I do rate Beyonce's voice - such a pity that the pro-forma r 'n' b slop which is constantly dished up for her will never do it proper justice.


Same scenario with Mariah Carey. A great voice performing substandard material to sell records.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

elgars ghost said:


> I do rate Beyonce's voice - such a pity that the pro-forma r 'n' b slop which is constantly dished up for her will never do it proper justice.


On *Beyoncé's* last album, the universally critically acclaimed "*Lemonade*", Beyoncé helped in writing the material, although the songwriting credits for most of the tracks look more like laundry lists. The songwriting credits for the 3rd track (*"Don't Hurt Yourself" (featuring Jack White)*) are interesting: Jack White,Beyoncé,Diana Gordon,James Page, Robert Plant, John Paul Jones, John Bonham. The lads from Led Zeppelin get what is now referred to as "sample credit". And, to her credit, her name is usually listed 2nd or 3rd on the list of credits for any given song.

Unlike *Elvis* though, whose writing credits were often "negotiated" in exchange for him releasing a song, Beyoncé helped come up with the concepts, and actually worked WITH a writing team.



starthrower said:


> Same scenario with Mariah Carey. A great voice performing substandard material to sell records.


*Mariah Carey* appears to have co-written a great many of her songs. It seems that she gets sole lyricist credits on an awful lot of them.



That said, neither are not really "overrated". They were both fabulous singers, and their songs are adored by millions.

As for "influence", I doubt that, in the long run, that Carey will be thought of in that way, but it's very possible that Beyoncé WILL be.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

starthrower said:


> Same scenario with Mariah Carey. A great voice performing substandard material to sell records.


Hmm...if we put our minds to it we could probably come up with quite a list.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Knorf said:


> Everything in popular music is overrated, as overrated as McDonald's fries, or as Krispy Kreme doughnuts.
> 
> It's the nature of mass marketing.


I wouldn't say pop culture makes for overrated art, but the fans of such art certainly don't investigate less marketed music, certainly. MJ was definitely talented, and he was my first favorite artist as a child, he could dance and he sang with a real passion that lacks in mainstream artists which imo sets him above the rest.

Do you think The Beatles are overrated too? You are entitled to your thoughts, and I'm not attacking you, I'm just curious. Explain your position if you will!

For me, the beatles started a great majority of all the current pop culture we see


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

So to be clear, I think MJ was the epitome of what pop culture attempts to produce; he truly was the king of pop imho. The Beatles were the king of pop rock, in my book.

I no longer listen to either, focusing more on Jazz/Classical which satisfy my appetite for more mentally stimulating music that I seek these days. However, I'm not so pompous to state this is the only thing to get from music, and neither that it is superior, I just happen to be a very deep, creative and critical thinker, which leads me towards these musics.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Also to clear up, I think song writers like Paul Simon or Bob Dylan have stimulating lyrics, not music most of the time and since I don't really listen to lyrics, Jazz/Classical takes the cake for my stimulation needs.

Typically classical music with singing is still stimulating even if I don't know what they are singing about, for the lyrics are matched with amazing music (the music doesn't take a backseat to the lyrics).

Jazz music with singing isn't always the most interesting though, based on what I've heard at least. (Ellla and the like).


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

My picks for most overrated: Carpenters, Monkees, and ABBA.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> My picks for most overrated: Carpenters, Monkees, and ABBA.


I don't know about ratings? Are they a real thing? But I love Karen Carpenter. I like the Monkees for their humor and don't really care about ABBA.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Bulldog said:


> My picks for most overrated: Carpenters, Monkees, and ABBA.


Perhaps more popular (in their day) than their music warrants. I'm not sure "overrated" applies as much, since many have been dismissive of all three groups, then and now. ABBA seems to have had the most staying power, though it's debatable whether that makes them the most overrated or the best of the three.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

On a personal level I would put ABBA in with Supertramp, ELO, Crowded House and a host of others - undeniably talented with a particular gift for well-constructed melodic music but whose well-constructed melodic music I don't happen to actually like.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Although ABBA, and ELO have an indentifiable sound I find their music very bland. I find Supertramp slightly more appealing but there are just three albums I can listen to very occasionally. Mainly for Rick Davies voice. Not a big fan of Hodgson as a singer.


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## Ludwig Von Chumpsky (Apr 19, 2018)

Good thread. I think you can't judge being over-rated without putting a performer in the context of their audience. If this was a forum for pop-stars, everybody from Stravinsky to Mozart would probably come out "over-rated". Plus you have to add in what the purpose so to speak of the music was. The Beach Boys IMO are utterly boring and overrated BUT their music was for a certain time and audience, I guess you'd call it the party group. And for what the audience was/is evidently it hits the mark.


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## atsizat (Sep 14, 2015)

Michael Jackson was only over-rated in USA


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Ludwig Von Chumpsky said:


> Good thread. I think you can't judge being over-rated without putting a performer in the context of their audience. If this was a forum for pop-stars, everybody from Stravinsky to Mozart would probably come out "over-rated". Plus you have to add in what the purpose so to speak of the music was. The Beach Boys IMO are utterly boring and overrated BUT their music was for a certain time and audience, I guess you'd call it the party group. And for what the audience was/is evidently it hits the mark.


Whilst I can concede your point regarding the Beach Boys based on their early surfer sound. I would stongly suggest that 'Pet Sounds' was one of the most influential albums of the sixties - that record along with some of their later albums such as 'Surfs Up' can hardly be regarded as party music.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I honestly find the "moonwalk" skill, making it look as if he was gliding backwards just through the movement without any additional optical manipulation more fascinating than any of his music. That's really a cool stunt!
Had I been interested in popular music I would basically have grown up with it; I remember a classmate having that record where he still looks normal (I think there is a leopard or tiger cub with him on the picture?). But find the music just irritating, never understood the hysteria of the fans and find the way he apparently experienced and acted out a strange kind of body dysphoria tragic and repulsive (as was of course his alleged abuse of children).


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

The musical ideas in his songs have really impressed me. I don't know how much help he had coming up with the fresh-sounding designs.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I wouldn't say pop culture makes for overrated art, but the fans of such art certainly don't investigate less marketed music, certainly. MJ was definitely talented, and he was my first favorite artist as a child, he could dance and he sang with a real passion that lacks in mainstream artists which imo sets him above the rest.
> 
> Do you think The Beatles are overrated too? You are entitled to your thoughts, and I'm not attacking you, I'm just curious. Explain your position if you will!
> 
> *For me, the beatles started a great majority of all the current pop culture we see*


Would that be your opinion if you had been a teenager when the Beatles crashed into groups of teens who were seeking art? Maybe it would be.

added a joke
Why did the gamer couple break up? They were on different levels!


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Malx said:


> Whilst I can concede your point regarding the Beach Boys based on their early surfer sound. I would stongly suggest that 'Pet Sounds' was one of the most influential albums of the sixties - that record along with some of their later albums such as 'Surfs Up' can hardly be regarded as party music.


The group was at the peak of its popularity, but the English invasion put them down a few notches (all for the good).


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> The group was at the peak of its popularity, but the English invasion put them down a few notches (all for the good).


I fondly remember the surfer-comb hairstyle. As kids we didn't know anything about surfing in the Big Apple. It was surreal.

I now appreciate Brian Wilson far more than I did back then. It was curious, because to us his songs sounded like those of other groups but they weren't...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> The group was at the peak of its popularity, but the English invasion put them down a few notches (all for the good).


I am a fan of both The Beach Boys and The Beatles. And for a while they pushed each other to their greatest artistic achievements. Brain Wilson has been cited by Paul McCartney as a big influence on his bass playing but more importantly on their albums _Revolver_ and _Sgt. Pepper's_. Brian Wilson has also gone on record saying that it was competition with The Beatles which spurred him on to attempt more ambitious music.

However, The Beatles disbanded in 1970, and The Beach Boys continued on with mostly lack-luster results certainly nothing compared to their work on _Pet Sounds_ and _Smile_ (tracks of which came out in dribs and drabs over a period of years, in one form or another).

For me the achievement of Brian Wilson with _Pet Sounds_ is among the highest ever made by a Pop artist, as are several albums by The Beatles. In addition to _Pet Sounds_, there are individual songs by The Beach Boys such as "Heroes and Villains", "Surf's Up", and "Good Vibrations" are as good or better than anything The Beatles did.


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## Ludwig Von Chumpsky (Apr 19, 2018)

Malx said:


> Whilst I can concede your point regarding the Beach Boys based on their early surfer sound. I would stongly suggest that 'Pet Sounds' was one of the most influential albums of the sixties - that record along with some of their later albums such as 'Surfs Up' can hardly be regarded as party music.


Wow, well that was interesting. I listened to a few songs from Surfs Up. Who woulda thunk. And then a thought popped into my head. I've often wondered what happened to the Beatles that caused them to go from basically stylized 50's bop/simple blues to Sargent Peppers, Rocky Raccoon, etc. Like a total change. And now as I said, the Beach Boys Surfs Up. Total change.

What caused them to make such radical changes? Did they share a producer who "changed for them" and they went along? Did they just get into drugs that opened their minds to other possibilities? Etc. Any music historians here who could shed some light? It doesn't seem like it was just "hey guys let's try something different". Not taking away from them at all, you can't make the kind of music they made without being talented, having a great musical sense, etc.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I have a big admiration for The Beach Boys Love You, which is a demented but totally unique slice of weird proto synth pop with unguarded, naive, almost age-regressed lyrics. Somehow this manages to work and produce a great album.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

amfortas said:


> Perhaps more popular (in their day) than their music warrants. I'm not sure "overrated" applies as much, since many have been dismissive of all three groups, then and now. ABBA seems to have had the most staying power, though it's debatable whether that makes them the most overrated or the best of the three.


ABBA were making at the same time the most complex and the most catchy pop music ever. They were the pinnacle of pop music. No other pop band can be compared to them in terms of quality.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Ludwig Von Chumpsky said:


> Wow, well that was interesting. I listened to a few songs from Surfs Up. Who woulda thunk. And then a thought popped into my head. I've often wondered what happened to the Beatles that caused them to go from basically stylized 50's bop/simple blues to Sargent Peppers, Rocky Raccoon, etc. Like a total change. And now as I said, the Beach Boys Surfs Up. Total change.
> 
> What caused them to make such radical changes? Did they share a producer who "changed for them" and they went along? Did they just get into drugs that opened their minds to other possibilities? Etc. Any music historians here who could shed some light? It doesn't seem like it was just "hey guys let's try something different". Not taking away from them at all, you can't make the kind of music they made without being talented, having a great musical sense, etc.


It's said that one of the inspirations for change was when the Beach Boys listened to _Rubber Soul _and came up with _Pet Sounds_; and when The Beatles listened to _Pet Sounds_, they came up with _Revolver_.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/jun/11/beach-boys-brian-wilson

_Sgt Pepper _came about because of The Beatles' decision to stop touring and play in the studio.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Luchesi said:


> Would that be your opinion if you had been a teenager when the Beatles crashed into groups of teens who were seeking art? Maybe it would be.
> 
> added a joke
> Why did the gamer couple break up? They were on different levels!


Most likely. They did inspire many modern artists, even though many don't touch them in terms of inspiration.


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