# R Schumann - revolutionary?



## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

Steven Isserlis tweeted yesterday:

"Robert Schumann - has there ever been a more deeply original composer? Steeped in the music of the past, but reaching far into the future, he created utterly new styles in order to confide in us his sorrows, his joys, his humour, his lover, his dreams..."

I've never viewed him in this way. What's your thoughts TC?


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

juliante said:


> Steven Isserlis tweeted yesterday:
> 
> "Robert Schumann - has there ever been a more deeply original composer? Steeped in the music of the past, but reaching far into the future, he created utterly new styles in order to confide in us his sorrows, his joys, his humour, his lover, his dreams..."
> 
> I've never viewed him in this way. What's your thoughts TC?


I would say it is an unquestionable truth. Schumann is misunderstood by MANY. But not by Steven Isserlis, it seems.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

There is certainly no music like his. He often ignores structure but nevertheless produces music that, despite his facility for flights of fantasy, is very coherent and turns out to have a direction. Like Chopin, perhaps, he was a true poet but produced music of some (comparatively) extended length. 

As for whether Schumann is misunderstood, I do certainly think that there are too many recordings of the symphonies that sound more Wagnerian than they should!


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Well, I would disagree with the breadth of Isserlis’s statement, but certainly quite a few innovations can be put to Schumann’s name - a symphony in four interconnected movements with no break, the concept of a scherzo with two different trios, the polishing and refinement of the lieder/song cycle (especially in Dichterliebe where he wrote an equal part for the piano), the forging of Romantic sensibilities with his stormy/seraphic Florestan/Eusebius dual personality. I’ve really come to love his concerti, chamber music and song cycles but his symphonies and piano music remain major blind spots for me except the wonderful Fantasie in C. It’s his odd obsession with march rhythms that hinders me.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

He was highly original in his own way, in many but not all things. Whether more so than other great composers I wouldn't say. Some of his music speaks to me, some doesn't, but that's not unique.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

, xcdm vnxs\d vcdzaxs\,vnxs\d,.lvn dx


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Maybe it's my imagination, or that I read too much into things, but whenever I hear some of Debussy's music for solo piano, I also hear a bit of the piano music of Schumann between the notes; which is interesting since Schumann is supposed to be the very essence of High Romanticism, flowers, birds, trees, and all things beautiful; and Debussy is often hailed as the first among "Modern" composers, even the precursor to Stravinsky. Even so, I don't think it's a giant leap to place Schumann's _Bird as Prophet_ along side Debussy's _Girl with the Flaxen Hair_.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Beebert said:


> I would say it is an unquestionable truth. Schumann is misunderstood by MANY. But not by Steven Isserlis, it seems.


Agreed...........


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

1 of first composres I came across...I loved his energy and I think he was not a ''classical conservative''.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Schumann's problem is that most listeners are completely unaware of what else was going on in European music at the time he was active. In Germany especially, things were really quiet after Beethoven. Mendelssohn was the only composer of note. Spend some time listening to the mostly forgotten composers from 1825-1870 and then put on some Schumann - he really was extraordinary.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> , xcdm vnxs\d vcdzaxs\,vnxs\d,.lvn dx


???????

I'm sure this means something but I left my Schumann decoder ring at home today. Is there a translation?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

*Schumann* and *Schubert* are really for more advanced listeners, both surpassing Brahms.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Room2201974 said:


> ???????
> 
> I'm sure this means something but I left my Schumann decoder ring at home today. Is there a translation?


I had made a post about the cello concerto, and Schumann's mental health. But on reflection I don't feel confident enough to say anything about this composer.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I like this one much better than the Fantasie, (cause to me, the Fantasie sounds too meandering in terms of melodies and transitions, and I don't see how it's better than Liszt's Waldesrauschen, for example.)

I wish chu42 was here right now, he would have had much to say regarding this topic.


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> *Schumann* and *Schubert* are really for more advanced listeners, both surpassing Brahms.


Hehe... I actually agree


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Schumann is growing on me, harmonically (in the vertical sense) I find him very unique and colorful. Like others have mentioned structurally he can seem like an enigma, I often find him that way and I don't think I fully understand Schumann, but some of his music I like. Just listened to his Piano Trio no. 3 in G minor, an interesting work, and one that I enjoy. 

I think he was unique and in some ways innovative, but I don't see him so much revolutionary as someone who refined romantic sensibilities. I think that he acted as a kind of a bridge between earlier romanticism and Brahms. I believe it was Simon Rattle who called Schumann the 'archetypal romantic.'


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Well, I would disagree with the breadth of Isserlis's statement, but certainly quite a few innovations can be put to Schumann's name - a symphony in four interconnected movements with no break, the concept of a scherzo with two different trios, the polishing and refinement of the lieder/song cycle (especially in Dichterliebe where he wrote an equal part for the piano), the forging of Romantic sensibilities with his stormy/seraphic Florestan/Eusebius dual personality. I've really come to love his concerti, chamber music and song cycles but his symphonies and piano music remain major blind spots for me except the wonderful Fantasie in C. It's his odd obsession with march rhythms that hinders me.


That about sums up where I am at with him. Will be revisiting with open ears though.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

He was mentally ill after all. Seemed to me he was original and didn't care about things like orchestration and form more than he was revolting against them. I think that is more descriptive of Franz Liszt who came along later.

He was a well-known writer and critic in his day. If he had revolutionary thoughts I'm sure he published them somewhere.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Schumann was able to write very engaging music, that speaks plainly to listeners. Mozart, Chopin and Debussy also had that gift.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> Schumann was able to write very engaging music, that speaks plainly to listeners. Mozart, Chopin and Debussy also had that gift.


You have something in Schumann which makes him more interesting than Mozart, Chopin and Debussy. The brutal juxtaposition of extrovert and introvert flavours. That gives complexity, complexity which reflects reality, in some of his music. The reality of inner life. Chopin could do this, in some of the nocturnes, but it's much more sanitised. Mozart never, and Debussy - well I don't really know what he did!


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> You have something in Schumann which makes him more interesting than Mozart, Chopin and Debussy. The brutal juxtaposition of extrovert and introvert flavours. That gives complexity, complexity which reflects reality, in some of his music. The reality of inner life. Chopin could do this, in some of the nocturnes, but it's much more sanitised. Mozart never, and Debussy - well I don't really know what he did!


That kind of thing definitely reflects the reality of my inner life, but I must question whether others find this brutality so relatable. An interesting thought nonetheless.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> You have something in Schumann which makes him more interesting than Mozart, Chopin and Debussy. The brutal juxtaposition of extrovert and introvert flavours. That gives complexity, complexity which reflects reality, in some of his music. The reality of inner life. Chopin could do this, in some of the nocturnes, but it's much more sanitised. *Mozart never*, and Debussy - well I don't really know what he did!


I feel like I'm Hammeredklavier when I do this, but Mozart was definitely able to switch as in his piano concertos, fantasias and operas. Best example I can think of is piano concerto 27.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> I feel like I'm Hammeredklavier when I do this, but Mozart was definitely able to switch as in his piano concertos, fantasias and operas. Best example I can think of is piano concerto 27.


You mean from movement to movement, or within a movement? Tell me which bit of the concerto you mean if the latter.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Within movements too. Lots of more subtle changes throughout, but some more dramatic points of inflection at 3:36, 6:10, 7:23, 9:33, 11:03 in the first movement alone.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Yes, and no. It’s not like Schumann . . . More fluid maybe . . . but you could be right. I don’t want to think about it right now, listening to Finnissy.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

He led such a sad life. Had to go to court to get married, suffered from mental health, ended up in an asylum, yet he composed such beautiful works. Think his sad life is reflected in his compositions!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Robert Schumann made music which was an expression of his BEING. In that sense, I can easily approach him, and accept him for who he was and what he did. The time-period becomes irrelevant, and I am swept into the timelessness of being.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Phil loves classical said:


>


Yes, I can see how Perihah would be attracted to the figure of Schumann.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Phil loves classical said:


>


Yes, I can see how Perihah would be attracted to the figure of Schumann.

Insanity is romantic, isn't it? Lots of gripping drama in the Schumann story.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I had always thought of Schumann as being in the shadow of Brahms musically. Not really sure why but it meant I never really bothered to listen to his music. My mistake as I now realise how the pleasure to be had especially in the symphonies and would echo the comments above


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> Mozart never, and Debussy - well I don't really know what he did!


Something else.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Judith said:


> He led such a sad life. Had to go to court to get married, suffered from mental health, ended up in an asylum, yet he composed such beautiful works. Think his sad life is reflected in his compositions!


But the story goes that his insanity coincided with (or caused?) a big downturn in the quality of his music. That would fit with the general psychiatric view of psychosis and I have mostly accepted that it fitted with Schumann's music. But perhaps others here can come up with examples of great music that he wrote later in his life.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_But the story goes that his insanity coincided with (or caused?) a big downturn in the quality of his music._

Schumann was bipolar -- manic depressive -- and he juxtaposed great periods of activity (as a composer, critic and writer) with nothingness when his illness sprung up. I don't know that his illness, which is common to millions and now easily controlled by medication, resulted in the type or quality of his music. That was more his ability and the way he reflected the romantic era.

I never though ot his music similarly to Brahms or even his contemporary Mendelssohn. They were both far more structured and used forms from the past. Schumann just let it rip, going anywhere he wanted regardless of convention. In that way he reminded me more of Berlioz or Liszt.

I could never have imagined someone like Brahms or Mendelssohn writing the Concert Piece for 4 Horns of the even more bravura Introduction and Allegro Appasionato.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

The linkage between his Mental Illness and a perceived decline in the quality of his work started with closest to him, namely Clara and Brahms, who suppressed certain works, most notably the Violin Concerto, that in their opinion reflected this.


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## Iota (Jun 20, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> Robert Schumann made music which was an expression of his BEING. In that sense, I can easily approach him, and accept him for who he was and what he did. The time-period becomes irrelevant, and I am swept into the timelessness of being.


I'd agree with this. I'd also add that for me, there is no classical music I know more truthful, intimate and seeming to speak directly from the centre of experience, than some of Schumann's solo piano works. Though Schnittke and Beethoven come very close at times.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The late psychiatrist, Anthony Storr, wrote fairly extensively about the impact of psychoses on creative activity and argued that madness and artistic genius could not coexist. If I remember rightly he felt that creative activity could be viewed as an activity that can help to keep madness at bay. Schumann was one of his examples - and I do think that there was a general downturn in the quality of his music later in his life (even if some dismissed works have turned out to be of value) - but he had many others. I'm not sure if any of this writing is still available.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

I already brought up that there were opinions I read saying Schumann (supposedly) difficulties in doing orchestrations in parts of his symphonies was due to his mental condition. Of course, my post was met with derision and laughter by some members. 

I guess it is not about investigating the history of Schumann but what one wants to think and believe. 

Of course if some well respected member of outstanding reputation brought up the same thing I did, my guess the thread would go more like this one.

Remember, it is what was said not who said it. Know the difference.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I think there've been multiple theories about Schumann's pscyhopathology. One of them, which I've heard is that he had a bipolar disorder which would just mean ups and downs throughout his whole career and not only later in life. I'm not sure though to what extent this theory is true.

I'm very fond of Schumann's works. I love his symphony cycle and he was my intro into solo piano. I think it was his _Kinderszenen_ which was one of the first solo piano works that I found truly fascinating as I like its programmic nature. He wrote some fantastic lieder as well. I'm particularly fond of his _Dichterliebe_ and _Die Beiden Grenadiere_ is also a powerful one.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> The late psychiatrist, Anthony Storr, wrote fairly extensively about the impact of psychoses on creative activity ... I'm not sure if any of this writing is still available.


I have the Pelican paperback edition (1976); the original was: Anthony Storr. _The Dynamics of Creation_. Martin, Secker & Warburg, 1972. Schumann is discussed in Ch. 7: Creativity and the Manic-Depressive Temperament, pp. 112-113. (Today we'd use the term bipolar.). According to Storr, " ... there can be no real doubt that [Schumann's] mental disorder was manic-depressive, as Eliot Slater and Alfred Meyer have demonstrated."
(to be continued)


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Roger Knox said:


> According to Storr, " ... there can be no real doubt that [Schumann's] mental disorder was manic-depressive, as Eliot Slater and Alfred Meyer have demonstrated."


Here are some relevant facts. Storr quotes from Slater and Meyer's article (1). In brief:
- 1840 and 1849 were Schumann's peak years
- 1844 was a particularly low year
- during 1850-53 Schumann was mostly free from depressive moods. These were productive years for composition, though some see a decline in musical quality
(1) Slater, Eliot and Meyer, Alfred. Contributions to a Pathography of the Musicians: Robert Schumann, _Confinia Psychiatrica 2_, 63-94 (1959)

There is much more recent research and interpretation in this area. Another interesting aspect is Schumann's "one genre at a time" development: solo piano works in the 1830's, then breakthrough years focused on lieder (1840), symphonies (1841), and chamber music (1842).

Returning to the OP I agree with Isserlis, who expresses the view of the soloist getting deeply into a composer's psyche. I think that's possible for the listener too.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Bigbang said:


> I already brought up that there were opinions I read saying Schumann (supposedly) difficulties in doing orchestrations in parts of his symphonies was due to his mental condition. Of course, my post was met with derision and laughter by some members.
> 
> I guess it is not about investigating the history of Schumann but what one wants to think and believe.
> 
> ...


I hope you are not considering me a "well respected member"! Anyway, without laughing at or pooh-poohing your suggestion, my posts were about his later work and not established masterpieces like the symphonies. And, actually, it does now seem - from numerous recordings and performances - that while his orchestration was not as good as some composers' it was in no way as awful as earlier critics had suggested.



Roger Knox said:


> I have the Pelican paperback edition (1976); the original was: Anthony Storr. _The Dynamics of Creation_. Martin, Secker & Warburg, 1972. Schumann is discussed in Ch. 7: Creativity and the Manic-Depressive Temperament, pp. 112-113. (Today we'd use the term bipolar.). According to Storr, " ... there can be no real doubt that [Schumann's] mental disorder was manic-depressive, as Eliot Slater and Alfred Meyer have demonstrated."
> (to be continued)


Yes, that's it. I don't remember him addressing Schumann so much as the general drift of his argument that psychosis impedes or destroys creative ability.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

annaw said:


> I think there've been multiple theories about Schumann's pscyhopathology. One of them, which I've heard is that he had a bipolar disorder which would just mean ups and downs throughout his whole career and not only later in life. I'm not sure though to what extent this theory is true.


Bi-polar disorder is not always as mere ups and downs. Both extremes can be very severe and treatment can be very difficult. We have lost quite a few musicians to it including (I think) the pianist, John Ogdon.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> Yes, that's it. I don't remember him addressing Schumann so much as the general drift of his argument that psychosis impedes or destroys creative ability.


I'm no psychiatrist -- also don't want to trigger anyone reading this who may be at risk. Storr says that in bipolarity it's the low mood phase where creativity is impaired (as in Schumann).


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> Bi-polar disorder is not always as mere ups and downs. Both extremes can be very severe and treatment can be very difficult. We have lost quite a few musicians to it including (I think) the pianist, John Ogdon.


Sorry, "mere" was misleading. I didn't want to lessen the severity of bipolar disorder, most certainly not!


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

annaw said:


> I think there've been multiple theories about Schumann's pscyhopathology. One of them, which I've heard is that he had a bipolar disorder which would just mean ups and downs throughout his whole career and not only later in life. I'm not sure though to what extent this theory is true.
> 
> I'm very fond of Schumann's works. I love his symphony cycles and he was my intro into solo piano. I think it was his _Kinderszenen_ which was one of the first solo piano works that I found truly fascinating as I like its programmic nature. He wrote some fantastic lieder as well. I'm particularly fond of his _Dichterliebe_ and _Die Beiden Grenadiere_ is also a powerful one.


A lot of women seem to like his music, he's the most mentioned one.

I remember meeting one that only liked Schumann and no other composer.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

1996D said:


> A lot of women seem to like his music, he's the most mentioned one.
> 
> I remember meeting one that only liked Schumann and no other composer.


The one I hear mentioned the most by females is Chopin. Just by numbers, not implying any sort of limitation (I got in some real heat before on that, haha).


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Phil loves classical said:


> The one I hear mentioned the most by females is Chopin. Just by numbers, not implying any sort of limitation (*I got in some real heat before on that, haha*).


Haha, I can imagine! In fact, I'm a female (just a bit of a Karajan fan) and I've never really warmed up to Chopin. Instead my favourites include Beethoven, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Shostakovich... big and fiery music :lol:.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> The one I hear mentioned the most by females is Chopin. Just by numbers, not implying any sort of limitation (I got in some real heat before on that, haha).


I do hear something different in Schumann that no other composer has, his melodies convey a very unique feeling; he can sound quite distinct and contemporary. Tremendous melodic ability and invention, and I suspect this is what gives him appeal to young women that otherwise don't listen to such music.

We're of different generations too, older women do seem to like Chopin.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

1996D said:


> We're of different generations too, older women do seem to like Chopin.


Because of this maybe


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

1996D said:


> We're of different generations too, older women do seem to like Chopin.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Because of this maybe


No, it's because of this


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Because of this maybe


There is also the fact that a lot of old pop like Sinatra used stereotypical Romantic era themes, so listening to Chopin feels familiar to them.

Schumann has unique themes that perhaps only Sibelius later took from, but they sound very much unique. Another thing that he does is move very quickly and spontaneously from idea to idea, and very creatively tonally. The love of spontaneity is universal among young girls.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> Because of this maybe


If Gigli sings, age doesn't matter .


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