# Bought a genuine manuscript by JOHANN SEBASTIAN BACH!



## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

My favourite compose of ALLLL time and I found a genuine manuscript -- well the first page of one of his works on Ebay, of all places, I bought it instantly needless to say as my all time favourite composer.

Not sure how long this will show but here is the link where I bought it:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/182255632831

Once it gets delivered I will upload a better image here indefinetly.

[willpostimageherelater

The manuscript for those wondering is the first page of his Cantata "In Allen Meinen Taten" which he composed in 1734 at his stay in Leipzeg.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> My favourite compose of ALLLL time and I found a genuine manuscript -- well the first page of one of his works on Ebay, of all places, I bought it instantly needless to say as my all time favourite composer.
> 
> Not sure how long this will show but here is the link where I bought it:
> 
> ...


Nice to see you found something you really want.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

That's a pretty good price, considering another genuine Bach manuscript went for over £2.5 million recently.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> That's a pretty good price, considering another genuine Bach manuscript went for over £2.5 million recently.


Thats amazing, even though it shows only 2 pages, I think there is probally alot more if thats the complete work which it claims, so this manuscript I have probally wont be worth as much, who knows, I might attempt to get price figured out on it if it's possible.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Forgot to add the actual work here if anyone wants to listen to it, the very beginning 10 seconds contains what is in the manuscript, the rest you can listen to if you want, it is a lovely Cantata.


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## Mahlerite555 (Aug 27, 2016)

Might be fake, especially for that price. What guarantee do you have of its authenticity?


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Mahlerite555 said:


> Might be fake, especially for that price. What guarantee do you have of its authenticity?


Look at the handwriting, identical to every other Bach manuscript
Look at the paper - you cant fake that without it looking extremely obvious
Also Bach put his signature right at the top if you look closely, it is by Bach, for certain.

Even in the 0.0001% chance that it was still a fake, I am guaranteed to get my money back, so I have nothing to lose.

But it's real, no doubt. I will say though that the painting is just a recreation - not the original so that wouldnt sell for pretty much anything, but thats not what I bought it for.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Mahlerite555 said:


> Might be fake, especially for that price. What guarantee do you have of its authenticity?


It's an absolutely authentic recreation.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

GreenMamba said:


> It's an absolutely authentic recreation.


Not sure what thats supposed to mean, but yes, the painting is recreated.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Stamp on the back:


5004


Re-created by Avery Gallery


Westport, Connecticut


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> Look at the handwriting, identical to every other Bach manuscript
> Look at the paper - you cant fake that without it looking extremely obvious
> Also Bach put his signature right at the top if you look closely, it is by Bach, for certain.
> 
> ...


As long as you keep that in mind Jamie !


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

GioCar said:


> Stamp on the back:
> 
> 5004
> 
> ...


The recreation is the painting, and thats just a sort of notice message just so you know sort of thing. The manuscript is genuine however, dont think it's possible to recreate parchment with all the creases, stains, overtime wear, ect ect ect.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

There is a 0% chance you bought genuine Bach manuscript pages for $30 on E-bay from a guy in Indiana. But believe what you want.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

JamieHoldham said:


> The recreation is the painting, and thats just a sort of notice message just so you know sort of thing. The manuscript is genuine however*, dont think it's possible to recreate parchment with all the creases, stains, overtime wear, ect ect ect*.


Yes it is.
Anyway, very happy for you if I'm wrong.
In case, my sister-in-low is in the music manuscript business
http://www.gallinimusica.it/index_en.html
I truly believe she 'd be very happy to buy it for more than 1000 times what you have paid.


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## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

100% Fake but still cool.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

GreenMamba said:


> There is a 0% chance you bought genuine Bach manuscript pages for $30 on E-bay from a guy in Indiana. But believe what you want.


Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct. eBay is not the place for the common man/woman to buy old/ancient 'originals' which if authentic, would cost hundreds, to thousands, to millions of dollars.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

I just assume people are trolling at this point, so we will see once it's delivered.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

DaveM said:


> Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct. eBay is not the place for the common man/woman to buy old/ancient 'originals' which if authentic, would cost hundreds, to thousands, to millions of dollars.


Check out my other post where I show my other 18th century manuscript, I got that same manuscript from Ebay, 100% authentic. I done it before and I am sure there will be more original music manuscripts on Ebay from time to time, it's uncommon but not impossible.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

If I were you, I'd immediately contact the seller and ask if it has been all recreated (not just the picture). 
If the seller is a good guy, in good faith, he/she will tell you the truth (whatever it is). Then you can decide.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

JamieHoldham said:


> Check out my other post where I show my other 18th century manuscript, I got that same manuscript from Ebay, 100% authentic. I done it before and I am sure there will be more original music manuscripts on Ebay from time to time, it's uncommon but not impossible.


Of course, but Krumpholtz is not Bach


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

GioCar said:


> If I were you, I'd immediately contact the seller and ask if it has been all recreated (not just the picture).
> If the seller is a good guy, in good faith, he/she will tell you the truth (whatever it is). Then you can decide.


I did message the seller to ask about exactly that, however no reply as of yet..


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

GioCar said:


> Of course, but Krumpholtz is not Bach


Fair enough, although however unlikely this scenario is, it isnt impossible, assuming it is genuine I think the reason it is so cheap is because the seller is just very ignorant to Bach and the significance of the manuscript / value.

Not everyone knows who he is, and people who know his name just dont even care sadly.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

If it is genuine - which it isn't - then maybe it was recently stolen from the New York Public Library.
https://www.nypl.org/blog/2012/06/18/students-encounter-bach


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> If it is genuine - which it isn't - then maybe it was recently stolen from the New York Public Library.
> https://www.nypl.org/blog/2012/06/18/students-encounter-bach


A interesting read, but I very much doubt that a thief would frame a stolen item, he would sell it for money instantly to go do drugs or whatever, interesting, but not true.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

JamieHoldham said:


> Check out my other post where I show my other 18th century manuscript, I got that same manuscript from Ebay, 100% authentic. I done it before and I am sure there will be more original music manuscripts on Ebay from time to time, it's uncommon but not impossible.


Sorry, but you are a babe in the woods when it comes to collecting manuscripts like this. Also, you might check out the definition of trolling. You started a thread that said you bought a GENUINE Bach manuscript. People here are simply setting you straight for your (and others') present and future protection.

Here is a quote from the Christie's website:

_'Fewer than twenty Bach manuscripts of any kind, including fragments and partially autograph or amended orchestral parts, have been offered for public sale since 1970: all were scores or parts for church cantatas. According to our research, no manuscript of any kind for a secular or instrumental work has appeared at auction since the present manuscript in 1968.'
_

Now, with that in mind, do you really believe that a fragment of an original Bach score could be had for $30? In collecting rare artifacts of any kind, there is something called 'provenance' which is essentially a carefully documented record of original ownership. Accurate provenance in addition to other 'proofs of authenticity' are required before any professional auction company will consider the item for auction.

Read for yourself:
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/books-manuscripts/bach-johann-sebastian-6012445-details.aspx


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

DaveM said:


> Sorry, but you are a babe in the woods when it comes to collecting manuscripts like this. Also, you might check out the definition of trolling. You started a thread that said you bought a GENUINE Bach manuscript. People here are simply setting you straight for your (and others') present and future protection.
> 
> Here is a quote from the Christie's website:
> 
> ...


I appreciate some insightful comments like yours that provided a detailed and reasonable explanation with prior research, it's just the comments that claim its fake with no thought at all that are annoying.

Like I said will wait until it's delivered so I can validate it, pointless arguing.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

JamieHoldham said:


> I appreciate some insightful comments like yours that provided a detailed and reasonable explanation with prior research, it's just the comments that claim its fake with no thought at all that are annoying.
> 
> Like I said will wait until it's delivered so I can validate it, pointless arguing.


Do you have the expertise to validate it? Your comments so far suggest not.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

dogen said:


> Do you have the expertise to validate it? Your comments so far suggest not.


Nethier do you, so we are at a impasse.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I suppose it's _theoretically_ possible that the person who brought the manuscript to the gallery to have it framed, the person in the gallery who framed it, and the person who sold it on ebay were all completely aware that it was a genuine manuscript by Bach while simultaneously unaware that it might be worth tens of thousands of dollars, _and_ that there is a second surviving genuine manuscript of the same cantata held in the New York Public Library.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> I suppose it's _theoretically_ possible that the person who brought the manuscript to the gallery to have it framed, the person in the gallery who framed it, and the person who sold it on ebay were all completely aware that it was a genuine manuscript by Bach while simultaneously unaware that it might be worth tens of thousands of dollars, _and_ that there is a second surviving genuine manuscript of the same cantata held in the New York Public Library.


Which would mean that someone is going to have to tell the NY Public Library that they have a fake!


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

When my students want to make an assignment look like it's a very old document, an antique, they soak their assignment in strong tea and then bake in the oven on a cookie tray for a few minutes until dry. Sometimes also they burn the edge with a match or magnifying glass in the sun. It looks pretty good, and it's quite simple to do.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

senza sordino said:


> When my students want to make an assignment look like it's a very old document, an antique, they soak their assignment in strong tea and then bake in the oven on a cookie tray for a few minutes until dry. Sometimes also they burn the edge with a match or magnifying glass in the sun. It looks pretty good, and it's quite simple to do.


Good way for something silly like a prank, but I dont think it can be done in a manner where it looks perfect to the original without taking extreme measures.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Anyone want to make me an offer for the manuscript of Guillaume de Machaut's saxophone concerto?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Anyone want to make me an offer for the manuscript of Guillaume de Machaut's saxophone concerto?


Is it the AUTHENTIC one? If so, I'll offer $40,000 right here and now!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

No, but I can offer you a period recording of Mozart's lost opera, "Ozzie and Harriet Meet Frankenstein."


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Looking at the seller's other items for sale, one couldn't accuse him of not being eclectic.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?item=182255632831&_ssn=plankton574&_sop=16&rt=nc


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

A lot of OP-bashing here ...

But from what I can deduce of this website

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV97.htm

a facsimile of the original manuscript seems to have been published in New York in 1987.

Also, there´s a photo of the same manuscript page on the pinterest website:


__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/93801604718143245/


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

joen_cph said:


> *A lot of OP-bashing here ...*
> 
> But from what I can deduce of this website
> 
> ...


I hope the OP beats the odds and romps home a winner.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Dr Johnson said:


> Looking at the seller's other items for sale, one couldn't accuse him of not being eclectic.
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?item=182255632831&_ssn=plankton574&_sop=16&rt=nc


I love the "vintage" Christmas light bulbs ("30% of bulbs are blown"). Ebay has really destroyed the word vintage.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

joen_cph said:


> A lot of OP-bashing here ...
> 
> But from what I can deduce of this website
> 
> ...


Sadly I dont speak German and cant look into the pinterest site further, wants me to log in - in German 

Good find though.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Dr Johnson said:


> I hope the OP beats the odds and romps home a winner.


I hope so too, I am not oblivous it might be fake, I just want people to be open minded, I have contacted my sources, which at the moment is just the Avery Gallery who apparently framed the work, emailed them and hopefully they can dig back for information regarding it, if they did recreate the manuscript somehow, fair enough. If they didnt then that is almost a guaranteed confirmation it is *probally* genuine.

Still researching on methods on how to recreate a very old item perfectly without just putting the paper into coffee, there is still the issue of the handwriting, it is Bach's, I have read enough of his own manuscripts online in his handwriting to not believe otherwise, among the fact the manuscript paper looks like genuine goat skinned style paper of the time, it doesn't look like a amateur re-creation..

Anyway enough speculation until

1. Gets delivered
2. The Avery Gallery emails me back hopefully confirming what is and isnt.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Anyone wanna guess how much I can sell this for?









Not sure what it is - found it lying around in my attic.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Sad this thread has come to posting semi-random google images with a generic "Look what I have, I will sell this for xxx, anyone want to buy this for xxx?"

If you have nothing constructive to add to this thread, just dont bother.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

JamieHoldham said:


> I hope so too, I am not oblivous it might be fake, I just want people to be open minded, I have contacted my sources, which at the moment is just the Avery Gallery who apparently framed the work, emailed them and hopefully they can dig back for information regarding it, if they did recreate the manuscript somehow, fair enough. If they didnt then that is almost a guaranteed confirmation it is *probally* genuine.
> 
> Still researching on methods on how to recreate a very old item perfectly without just putting the paper into coffee, there is still the issue of the handwriting, it is Bach's, I have read enough of his own manuscripts online in his handwriting to not believe otherwise, among the fact the manuscript paper looks like genuine goat skinned style paper of the time, it doesn't look like a amateur re-creation..
> 
> ...


At worst you have spent $87.

If it is judged to be fake, my advice (for what little it may be worth) is not to chuck it away. Keep it. Sometimes fakes can acquire value if the faker gains "cachet".


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

JamieHoldham said:


> Nethier do you, so we are at a impasse.


There is no impasse because I am not claiming expertise for validation.

However the naive assertion "Look at the handwriting, identical to every other Bach manuscript
Look at the paper - you cant fake that without it looking extremely obvious
Also Bach put his signature right at the top if you look closely, it is by Bach, for certain" is simple gullibility.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The page is most likely just a facsimile, comparable to an advanced photocopy. 

Unimportantly, the pinterest link above is in Danish, not German. But pinterest.com is an international website (I don´t use it much myself).


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

dogen said:


> There is no impasse because I am not claiming expertise for validation.
> 
> However the naive assertion "Look at the handwriting, identical to every other Bach manuscript
> Look at the paper - you cant fake that without it looking extremely obvious
> Also Bach put his signature right at the top if you look closely, it is by Bach, for certain" is simple gullibility.


Nethier did I claim to have any expertise ethier, so your point is invalid.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

JamieHoldham said:


> Sad this thread has come to posting semi-random google images with a generic "Look what I have, I will sell this for xxx, anyone want to buy this for xxx?"
> 
> If you have nothing constructive to add to this thread, just dont bother.


Try to look on this as a learning experience. No one means any malevolence.
Btw, you should be able to get your money back. eBay doesn't tolerate this sort of thing.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

JamieHoldham said:


> Nethier did I claim to have any expertise ethier, so your point is invalid.


You claim, you assert: "It is by Bach for certain."

But it is not based on anything, as you admit.

I've got an original signed copy of the bible. Can I sell it to you? It looks old so I'm certain it's genuine, brown edges and everything.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

DaveM said:


> Try to look on this as a learning experience. No one means any malevolence.
> Btw, you should be able to get your money back. eBay doesn't tolerate this sort of thing.


I'm not sure why that would be. The eBay page listing said it was "re-created by the Avery Gallery." I don't think the seller ever tried to pass it off as an original.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

dogen said:


> You claim, you assert: "It is by Bach for certain."
> 
> But it is not based on anything, as you admit.
> 
> I've got an original signed copy of the bible. Can I sell it to you? It looks old so I'm certain it's genuine, brown edges and everything.


Claiming something doesnt make me a expert, invalid point yet again.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

DaveM said:


> Try to look on this as a learning experience. No one means any malevolence.
> Btw, you should be able to get your money back. eBay doesn't tolerate this sort of thing.


Yeah I probally will, unless I can fool someone else as gullible as me :lol:


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

GreenMamba said:


> I'm not sure why that would be. The eBay page listing said it was "re-created by the Avery Gallery." I don't think the seller ever tried to pass it off as an original.


Considering I asked him whether or not it was the original, and he hasnt even bothered to reply after several days, that is still dodging vital information which I can use in my defense to refund the item.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

JamieHoldham said:


> Claiming something doesnt make me a expert, invalid point yet again.


OK, you're right, it's genuine.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

dogen said:


> OK, you're right, it's genuine.


Finally the charade is over


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

JamieHoldham said:


> Finally the charade is over


Till your next purchase :tiphat:


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

GreenMamba said:


> I'm not sure why that would be. The eBay page listing said it was "re-created by the Avery Gallery." I don't think the seller ever tried to pass it off as an original.


Yes, good point.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

Goodbye treasure hunt.:wave::wave::wave:
It was to good to be true.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Traverso said:


> Goodbye treasure hunt.:wave::wave::wave:
> It was to good to be true.


The treasure hunt is never over!

Not until NYPL / Avery gallery emails me saying ethier we have the original or we re-created it


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

DaveM said:


> Yes, good point.


The referral of being recreated is attributed to the painting I personally think, considering the fact a art gallery would never get there hands on a original Bach manuscript to be able to re-create anyway


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

JamieHoldham said:


> The referral of being recreated is attributed to the painting I personally think, considering the fact a art gallery would never get there hands on a original Bach manuscript to be able to re-create anyway


The real point though is that the seller may use the 'recreated by' statement as his/her defense. If you take your case to eBay, it may be hard to know how it will see this: as a charlatan seller or a buyer who assumed too much.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Here´s a Beethoven one by the same establishment and ebay seller
http://picclick.ca/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Letter-as-Musical-Sketch-manuscript-182238271940.html


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

DaveM said:


> The real point though is that the seller may use the 'recreated by' statement as his/her defense. If you take your case to eBay, it may be hard to know how it will see this: as a charlatan seller or a buyer who assumed too much.


I did still ask whether the item was fake or not, the seller refused to reply, been several days now, thats basically my defense.

Even if that fails I will just repost it for ethier the same price or even more, refuse to answer any questions and let someone ambitous as me buy it without asking, money back.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

joen_cph said:


> Here´s a Beethoven one by the same establishment and ebay seller
> http://picclick.ca/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Letter-as-Musical-Sketch-manuscript-182238271940.html


Interesting, however it doesn't look like Beethovens handwriting at all.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

It does. It is a late Beethoven signature. Again, a facsimile.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

joen_cph said:


> It does. It is a late Beethoven signature. Again, a facsimile.


Glad I am in no rush to recieve my refund then  ^^


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## Mahlerite555 (Aug 27, 2016)

Just saying, but you were really gullible on this one. Need to get some street-smarts in there, or you're gonna get taken advantage of big-time.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Mahlerite555 said:


> Just saying, but you were really gullible on this one. Need to get some street-smarts in there, or you're gonna get taken advantage of big-time.


Not really, just trolling because you have nothing better to do.


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## Mahlerite555 (Aug 27, 2016)

It's in these moments that I thank God for atonal music to lift my spirits:


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

dogen said:


> You claim, you assert: "It is by Bach for certain."
> 
> But it is not based on anything, as you admit.
> 
> I've got an original *signed* copy of the bible. Can I sell it to you? It looks old so I'm certain it's genuine, brown edges and everything.


You mean, signed by JOHANN SEBASTIAN YOU KNOW WHO ???


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

JamieHoldham said:


> Not really, just trolling because you have nothing better to do.


We´ve all learned a bit from this, obviously.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

joen_cph said:


> We´ve all learned a bit from this, obviously.


Yes I have, there is at my estimates about a 80 - 85% chance people are good are helpful, and the other 5 - 15% are trolls,


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Jamie,
Cancel the order now. You are being ripped off. Didn't you see the link Neriffid posted? The real manuscript is in the New York Public Library. Didn't you look at the image? If it is there, it can't also be in Indiana. Wake up!


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Jamie,
> Cancel the order now. You are being ripped off. Didn't you see the link Neriffid posted? The real manuscript is in the New York Public Library. Didn't you look at the image? If it is there, it can't also be in Indiana. Wake up!


I contacted them because it might not have even been the original they had, and for all I know it could have moved to a completley different location,

calm down...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Found on the back of the manuscript page, in Bach’s own handwriting:

“Though some say you just bought a crock,
It’s real, and they just want to mock.
They're all dissin’ my stuff
But they'll find out I’m tough
Cuz my name is Johann S. Bach!”


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

*Insert lame generic mocking reply here*


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

JamieHoldham said:


> I contacted them because it might not have even been the original they had, and for all I know it could have moved to a completley different location,
> 
> calm down...


You can be sure the NYPL authenticated their manuscript. You can also be sure that the con artist selling pages in Indiana worked from a facsimile of the NYPL manuscript. I'm just trying to save you money Jamie.


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## PJaye (May 22, 2015)

For 30$, it seems like a pretty good buy to me -as long as it's a good quality reproduction. A kind of interesting curio where you can see the style of script and notation of J.S Bach, as well as the parchment and other details of the times. I'd take it over a lot of stuff I saw in a store I was in today - city scenes, cute animals, or what have you.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

PJaye said:


> For 30$, it seems like a pretty good buy to me -as long as it's a good quality reproduction. A kind of interesting curio where you can see the style of script and notation of J.S Bach, as well as the parchment and other details of the times. I'd take it over a lot of stuff I saw in a store I was in today - city scenes, cute animals, or what have you.


I agree, it looks great and would be awsome for hanging on the wall or something, considering how close it looks to the original, but I did have to pay a fair amount for postage, so I will probally get a refund personally.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Stay on topic and focus replies on the specific issue of the manuscript, not the character of the OP or any other poster.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> You can be sure the NYPL authenticated their manuscript. You can also be sure that the con artist selling pages in Indiana worked from a facsimile of the NYPL manuscript. I'm just trying to save you money Jamie.


Let's be a little more generous. The "con artist" seller never said it was "genuine" or "authentic". It's pretty obvious he's selling a $30 item to hang on your wall, one that was produced in fact by somebody else (and he does give credit).


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Mahlerian said:


> Stay on topic and focus replies on the specific issue of the manuscript, not the character of the OP or any other poster.


Thank you,

I owe 1 or 2 apologies to the people that were trying to be helpful later when I wake up, now that all the toxic replys is gone.

Good night


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Let's be a little more generous. The "con artist" seller never said it was "genuine" or "authentic". It's pretty obvious he's selling a $30 item to hang on your wall, one that was produced in fact by somebody else (and he does give credit).


He did give credit, but extremely subtly, and in a way to give him the highest possible chance to scam someone as he could. Not very fair at all..


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

A kind of second hand auto car sales man.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> He did give credit, but extremely subtly, and in a way to give him the highest possible chance to scam someone as he could. Not very fair at all..


I don't see it as a scam in the slightest, one of the pictures clearly states it's a re-creation and it doesn't even hint that it's the painting that was re-created. The seller is selling a manuscript and it's pretty clear that the "re-created" part is referring to the manuscript. Furthermore, the words "genuine" or "authentic" do not appear anywhere on the page.

$30 is exactly the price one would ask for a replica of a Bach manuscript, and authentic or not, it's a pretty cool thing to have on your wall.


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

Wow 6 pages and Nobody took the time to scroll down to see the rest of the pictures.


One clearly states: 5004 Re-created by the Avery Gallery, Wesport Connecticut.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Machiavel said:


> Wow 6 pages and Nobody took the time to scroll down to see the rest of the pictures.
> 
> One clearly states: 5004 Re-created by the Avery Gallery, Wesport Connecticut.


You didn't read all 6 pages, then.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> Thank you,
> 
> I owe 1 or 2 apologies to the people that were trying to be helpful later when I wake up, now that all the toxic replys is gone.
> 
> Good night


Don't loose sleep over it, make your own decisions Jamie.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

JamieHoldham said:


> My favourite compose of ALLLL time and I found a genuine manuscript -- well the first page of one of his works on Ebay, of all places, I bought it instantly needless to say as my all time favourite composer.
> 
> Not sure how long this will show but here is the link where I bought it:
> 
> ...


My oh my! The script by a musical god actually bought.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Let's be a little more generous. The "con artist" seller never said it was "genuine" or "authentic". It's pretty obvious he's selling a $30 item to hang on your wall, one that was produced in fact by somebody else (and he does give credit).


Obvious to me. Obvious to you. Perhaps obvious to nearly everyone. Nevertheless, a false claim is made. Stating the page is from the manuscript of Bach's cantata composed in 1734 is a claim that the ink on the page was applied by J.S. Bach, the weasel script protecting the seller from legal action notwithstanding.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Several posts which were inappropriate were deleted. Also some responses to those posts were deleted as well. I suspect the thread has run its course, but if people still wish to contribute, make sure you are on topic and not commenting on other members.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I actually saw one of these in a thrift shop recently. I don't remember if it was of the Bach, Beethoven or someone else. It might have been an antique shop. I think they wanted more than $30 for it.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

I'm wondering what kind of custodial attitude and precautions you'd take to preserve this historical document for future generations and for scholarly research. A climate controlled environment? No direct sunlight? No oily fingers handling it? Storage safe from accident or theft?

Or...would your attitude be that if you paid the $$$ then its your personal property and you can do with it as you will, fold it into a dart if you want to?


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

OK You didn't have anything nice to say. Posts have been deleted and the thread closed.


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