# Not very well known symphonies



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I thought it would be nice if there was a thread devoted to not very well known symphonies, underrated symphonies or symphonies by great composers that are overshadowed by some of their more famous works.

To start off: Wagner's Symphony in C. The first of his one and a half symphonies (the other one being in E). He wrote it at 19 years old and really does make you think that he would have grown up to be a major symphonist.






OMG SOUNDS LIKE BEETHOVEN


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## Prodromides

Not very well known? - sounds like most of the symphonies in my collection. 

One of the finest labels to champion lesser-known repertoire is CPO.

I'll start with CPO's box-set of Frankel's 8 symphonies:










I'm partial to Frankel's Symphony No.2 (1962)...


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## Guest

Hmmm. Even if this turns out to be just Prodromides and myself capping each other's entries, it should still be fun.

OK, I see your Frankel and raise you a Valen.









There are two recordings of Valen's four symphonies, the Ceccato and the Eggen. The latter are more recent and easier to get. The former are, I'm pretty sure, better. I haven't done an A/B, yet, but my impression of the Valen from the Eggen set is that they're nice but not memorable. Tepid. [Nope!]

Then I recently got the Ceccato (used), I'm not sure why. But I'm glad I did. The symphonies really come across as something well worth listening to again and again. Like I say, though, I've not done the A/B, yet, and it may be that my impression of the Eggen being tepid is all wrong. If I ever get around to it, I'll let you know. [I was all wrong. If anything, they're more aggressive, more lively, than the Ceccato. I merely prefer the Ceccato. They're not better. And the four symphonies are spread out on several CDs with all sorts of other short, orchestral pieces in the Eggen. I'm glad to have both.]






Anyway, also like the Frankel, and really like the van Kesteren paintings on the four booklet covers.


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## presto

The symphonies of Kozeluch, every bit as good as Haydn!


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## Prodromides

Thanks, some guy, for depositing Fartein Valen. That's one less symphonic cycle for me to post about! 
[yes, I like Valen, too]

I have only the initial recordings on Simax.
I recall being impressed with Valen's Symphony No.2, the "finale" of which simply trails off into nothingness as if it were an unfinished composition...

Before I submit another cycle by CPO, I wish to spotlight two different sorts of symphonies by Andre Jolivet.

The Symphony for Strings stands apart from Jolivet's numbered symphonies, but nevertheless possesses the same qualities of obstinacy and incandescence typical of much of Jolivet's work.






Not able to tell you how many times (it's a lot!) I've listened to the Troisieme Symphonie by Jolivet.
Here's the live 1966 performance (the only recording I'm aware of) of Jolivet's final symphonic offering:






The piece commences with guttural growling from wind instruments ; a few listeners may notice a similarity between this opening and the music Jerry Goldsmith wrote for the 'face hugger' in his 1979 ALIEN soundtrack.


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## StevenOBrien




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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

^But that is my favourite Philip Glass symphony.


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## Guest

Jolivet deserves more love, it's true. That's what all of this is all about, eh?

So I'll toss in Ib Nørholm. Not very well known symphonists this is turning out to be.

Except for the "not very well known" Phil Glass. (Wait a minute!)

Anyway, the it seems now obligatory youtube video.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

*Anton Eberl *(1765-1807). Mozart was amongst his teachers.


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## StevenOBrien

^ To add to that, Eberl's E-flat major symphony was actually premiered in the same public concert as Beethoven's Eroica, and it was initially praised by critics much more highly than the Eroica.


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## Quartetfore

Max Bruch, nice music never played. Raff very popular in his day never played today. Berwald interesting, but never played today. One of the nice things about recordings is the fact that if you are interested in these footnotes of musical history, you can hear them.


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## LordBlackudder




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## Guest

Spam spam spam spam, spam spam spam spam. Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!!


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## Sid James

I am currently getting into the music of *Saint-Saens*, and I am aiming to listen to his symphonies other than the famous _Organ_ symphony (his third). He wrote roughly 3 or 4 others, and they are on the backburner for me to get!

In that direction, there are symphonies by well known composers that are kind of on the edges of the performing repertoire:
- Two symphonies by Gounod
- Two by Weber - these have always been favourites
- Bizet's _Roma_ symphony (although the _Symphony in C_ is much better known, almost a warhorse - both are superb)
- Grieg, Goldmark and Kodaly - one each

Some 'unkowns' or lesser knowns:
- Australian composer *Alfred Hill*, who wrote a cycle of symphonies in the early-mid 20th century neo-romantic style (but they seem hard to get on disc - Marco Polo had them, but I think they were deleted?)
- Israeli *Josef Tal *wrote about 6, I think, they're also on cpo. Come across as like Bloch, but kind of 'atonal.'
- One contemporary-ish one I liked was *Vytautas Barkauskas *(b. 1931), Lithuanian, an earlier review of his 5th symphony and other stuff HERE


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## elgar's ghost

The four symphonies by Mikhail Nosyrev - hard to find now but worth checking out for those who'd appreciate interesting works with occasional elements of Prokofiev (rhythmic spikiness) and Shostakovich (irony/enigma). Incidentally, his own life story makes DSCH's troubles with authority seem like a walk in the park in comparison.

I'm also warming to the symphonies of Humphrey Searle, a Brit modernist whose five contributions to the genre - all written in the 50s and 60s - are available on the cpo label. He liked his serialism (he studied for a while under Webern) but never really took things to extremes in these works.


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## Delicious Manager

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ^But that is my favourite Philip Glass symphony.


You mean you can tell it apart from the others? :-o


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Delicious Manager said:


> You mean you can tell it apart from the others? :-o


(I _was_ going to write somehting here about having superior knowledge about contemporary music)


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## Vaneyes

There's usually a very good reason why they've remained unknown. No matter, even some fine composers couldn't write symphonies, or if they do have one or two symphonic "hits", accompanying symphonic "bombs" are not uncommon. Not even LvB had a 100% success rate, the perfectionists in that regard being Mahler, Brahms, Schumann.


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## mleghorn

Egon Wellesz wrote nine fine symphonies. He was a student of Schoenberg's. His style ranges from Bruckner to Mahler to Schoenberg, but also his own style.


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## norman bates

matthijs vermeulen - prelude a la nouvelle journée, the so called dutch rite of spring
vermeulen's music reminds me in some ways of jolivet too.


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## Prodromides

Sid James said:


> - Israeli *Josef Tal *wrote about 6, I think, they're also on cpo. Come across as like Bloch, but kind of 'atonal.'





elgars ghost said:


> I'm also warming to the symphonies of Humphrey Searle, a Brit modernist whose five contributions to the genre - all written in the 50s and 60s - are available on the cpo label. He liked his serialism (he studied for a while under Webern) but never really took things to extremes in these works.


These CPO volumes of symphonies (6 by Josef Tal & 5 by Humphrey Searle) are superb, and both would've been posted by me if nobody else had done so.

Thanks, folks.


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## Prodromides

Vaneyes said:


> There's usually a very good reason why they've remained unknown. No matter, even some fine composers couldn't write symphonies, or if they do have one or two symphonic "hits", accompanying symphonic "bombs" are not uncommon. Not even LvB had a 100% success rate, the perfectionists in that regard being Mahler, Brahms, Schumann.


Can't say I agree with you on this.

Are you implying that works which fail to become "hits" _DESERVE_ to remain uncovered?

I don't think any composer will ever possess a 100% success rate with respect to communication with audiences. That which captures listeners' and recording producers' fancy is not necessarily the barometer by which a musical work's merits can be comprehensively assessed.

True, there are reasons why some symphonies have languished in obscurity. However, it's rather churlish to state that it's "very good" for such compositions to reap the fate that has befallen onto them...


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## Romantic Geek

I feel like most people forget Roy Harris's 3rd Symphony when talking about great American symphonies. In my opinion, it is *THE* American symphony.


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## Il_Penseroso

Rimsky Korsakov Symphonies Nos. 1 and 3


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## Arsakes

Wagner's Symphony (C) is my kind of Symphony. I've been searching for it for so long time.

Dvorak's # 1 and 3 are very good ones, which also aren't well known.
Korsakov #1
Borodin # 1
Smetana: Festive Symphony


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

LOUISE FARRENC STILL HAS NOT BEEN MENTIONED. Are you guys out of your mind?!


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## Vaneyes

Prodromides said:


> These CPO volumes of symphonies (6 by Josef Tal & 5 by Humphrey Searle) are superb, and both would've been posted by me if nobody else had done so.
> 
> Thanks, folks.


Re Humphrey Searle, related writings for those who haven't seen...

http://www.musicweb-international.com/searle/titlepg.htm

http://www.musicweb-international.com/searle/index.htm

http://www.wrightmusic.net/pdfs/humphrey-searle.pdf (pdf file)


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## Vesteralen

After today, I'd nominate Ellen Taafe Zwilich's Symphony #1 (Three Movements for Orchestra). It may not be little known among certain people (it did win a Pulitzer Prize, after all), but it's certainly little known among TC forumites.


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## DeepR

Scriabin #1 is magnificent. Here's movement 5:


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## Philip

Havergal Brian - Gothic Symphony (Symphony No. 1) (3/10) 





epic symphony is epic


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## Rangstrom

The Naxos set of the W. Schuman symphonies is stellar.


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## StevenOBrien

Delicious Manager said:


> You mean you can tell it apart from the others? :-o


Actually, you know what? I find the 8th in particular breaks the "sameness" mould that most people seem to get from his works.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

StevenOBrien said:


> Actually, you know what? I find the 8th in particular breaks the "sameness" mould that most people seem to get from his works.


Symphony no. 3


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## presto

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> *Anton Eberl *(1765-1807). Mozart was amongst his teachers.


Why is Eberl so utterly neglected? 
Dozens of lesser composers get a good airing but poor old Eberl hardly ever gets recorded. 
Judging from the 3 very fine symphonies I know this is a great unjustness!


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## maestro267

Reinhold Gliére's Symphony No. 3 in B minor is an enormous work. It's a programme symphony based on the Russian legend of Il'ya Muromets. In four movements, the work lasts around 75 minutes. The most incredible moment for me is the climax of the fourth movement. The brass play fanfares over a constant timpani roll, woodwind and percussion add their own elements to the picture, the whole affair building up over 2 full minutes, before an absolutely earth-shattering climax with some of the loudest bass drum strikes I've ever heard.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

^I will listen to that tomorrow.


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## elgar's ghost

Re: Gliere - the recording I have of Ilya Muromets lasts for a whopping 93 minutes (and it isn't even Celibidache who's conducting it).


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## Renaissance

Rautavaara's Symphony #3. The third movement is particularly epic killer.






Also, Rued Langgaard is a very good (but less-known) symphonist.


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## MattTheTubaGuy

maestro267 said:


> Reinhold Gliére's Symphony No. 3 in B minor is an enormous work. It's a programme symphony based on the Russian legend of Il'ya Muromets. In four movements, the work lasts around 75 minutes. The most incredible moment for me is the climax of the fourth movement. The brass play fanfares over a constant timpani roll, woodwind and percussion add their own elements to the picture, the whole affair building up over 2 full minutes, before an absolutely earth-shattering climax with some of the loudest bass drum strikes I've ever heard.


Thanks, I just spent this afternoon listening to a whole bunch of Gliere on Classics Online.
For some reason, his music reminded me of Chausson.


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## Renaissance




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## Art Rock

I am now going through a box with the 8 symphonies of Swiss composer Hans Huber (1852-1921). Another late romantic that has been neglected unfairly. I especially like his 4th with prominent roles for piano and organ.


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## Lisztian

Liszt's _Dante Symphony_ is tremendous - even if, IMO, it's not as good as it could have been.


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## kv466




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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

^ That certainly piqued my interest.


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## rrudolph

Arthur Honegger's 5th Symphony has long been a personal favorite of mine that seems to not get programmed very often. His 3rd is well worth a listen too.


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## techniquest

I'm going to nominate the 3 symphonies of Aram Khachaturian. I know everyone goes 'yah-boo' at the 3rd, but the other two have a great deal of merit and deserved to be heard much more often.
Also, the symphonies of Cornelius Dopper, especially the 7th with it's rip-roaring finale


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## Rinaldino

Egon Wellesz wrote nine nice symphonies:








It's a pity they're quite bad performed. A more vivid and modernist approach would be perfect. Something like young Abbado or maybe Curly-guy would be perfect.


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## moody

StevenOBrien said:


> ^ To add to that, Eberl's E-flat major symphony was actually premiered in the same public concert as Beethoven's Eroica, and it was initially praised by critics much more highly than the Eroica.


They were probably the Teen Weenies from TC.


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## moody

elgars ghost said:


> Re: Gliere - the recording I have of Ilya Muromets lasts for a whopping 93 minutes (and it isn't even Celibidache who's conducting it).


This is because shortened versions are often played and recorded.


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## moody

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> (I _was_ going to write somehting here about having superior knowledge about contemporary music)


Pease don't. Where's my Ligeti music??


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## moody

Romantic Geek said:


> I feel like most people forget Roy Harris's 3rd Symphony when talking about great American symphonies. In my opinion, it is *THE* American symphony.


But not neglected.


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## neoshredder

Carl Stamitz symphonies are like a better version of Mozart's Early Symphonies. Definitely worth checking out. Symphony in F major Op. 24, No. 3 is one worth checking out.


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## starthrower

Has anyone listened to Finnish composer Kalevi Aho's symphonies? I've thought about trying one. I think he's written 15 so far?


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## Philip

Been listening to the Schnittke symphonies on youtube lately. Very good and nice instrumentation, but nothing memorable, although i'm only on my first pass.


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## Crudblud

Gloria Coates springs to mind instantly. Though definitely not to everyone's taste, I imagine CoAG would appreciate her work. For those on not-so-friendly terms with 20th century classical, they may find the 2nd video more palatable.











By the way, TheWelleszCompany, the channel that posted this video, is probably the foremost modern and contemporary music channel on YT, along with its sibling channels TheWelleszOpus and TheWelleszTheatre. I think I've mentioned them here before, but nonetheless.


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## mtmailey

peter tchaikovsky had a incomplete E FLAT symphony there are few albums of it.I have it on LP & on CD.Also SCHUBERT had a symphony 10 & 7 which he did not completed during his lifetime-cds of the 10 & 7 symphonies are not to common like the other 8 symphonies.


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## DeepR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Catoire

I recently listened to this symphony. I like this composer's piano music. I'm not sure yet about the symphony, will have to listen again.


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## Cheyenne

Hans Rott's first and only symphony is of quality, and so is his life story, though tragic:
"Rott's mind snapped in October 1880, whilst on a train journey. He was reported to have threatened another passenger with a revolver, claiming that Brahms had filled the train with dynamite." (wikipidia)


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## stevenski

Paderewski "Polonia" Symphony
Parry Symphonies 3 and 4(especialy the first movt of the former, with its joyous Boycean springiness; and the last movt of the latter, with its wonderfully moving second subject)
Bloch Symphony in C sharp minor
Bruch Symphony 2
Siegfried Wagner Symphony: brooding and full of longing;joyful themes; magnificent orchestration; available on CPO
I am not saying these are "great" symphonies; is purely a subjective choice of un(der)performed symphonies, but i would make quite a high claim for the two Parry Symphonies. Steve


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## Arsakes

Berwald - Symphony Sérieuse in G minor

As good as Schumann Symphonies.


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## juergen

This one is probably a bit misplaced here, because it is certainly not unknown or underrated. But maybe some do not know it yet.


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## mtmailey

Edward Elgar had a 3rd symphony he did not complete before his death,someone finished it but the final movement he messed up to me.


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## drpraetorus

Gottschalk A Night in the Tropics






Gottschalk Smyphony #2 Montvideo


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## tankership

Glazunov

8 Symphonies and not really a stinker in the bunch.

Alexander Glazunov - Symphony No. 1 in E major, Op. 5, "Slavyanskaya" - II. Scherzo: Allegro


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## tankership

Joseph Martin Kraus

Symphony in C major Violino Obligato
Symphony in C major
Symphony in C-sharp minor
Symphony in E minor
Symphony in C minor
Symphony in D major
Symphony in E-flat Major
Symphony in F major


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## Lisztian

I already mentioned Liszt's Dante Symphony...

Another one is a tone poem of his: Ce qu'on entend sur la montagne, sometimes called the Mountain Symphony. This piece is often called one of Liszt's weakest works and has been frequently trashed, but given a good performance (very rare) it's great. I remember reading recently an opinion that there's only one performance of it that seems to accurately portray Liszt's intentions, and makes it sound like "one of the two greatest works he wrote." I haven't heard the performance but it goes for 10 minutes longer than pretty much any other of the work. The work itself really shows Liszt at his most revolutionary.


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## Ondine

When _'Small is Beautiful'_ eighteen century is full of wonderful and outstanding symphonic works as gems of fine jewelry or pieces of beautifully handcrafted oeuvres,

like those from

Carl Philip Emanuel Bach, Johann Christian Bach, Johann Christoph Bach known as the founders of 'modern music'

and also,

Franz Ignaz Beck,

Antonin Benda,

Nicholas Mehul,

Martin Kraus -already mentioned-

Franz Xavier Dussek and

Leopold Mozart

Maybe I am caught up in that century.


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## DeepR

Billy
47 classical symphonies and counting


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## campy

drpraetorus said:


> Gottschalk A Night in the Tropics


Yes! Deserves to be much better known. That finale ... amazing!


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## moody

Prodromides said:


> Can't say I agree with you on this.
> 
> Are you implying that works which fail to become "hits" _DESERVE_ to remain uncovered?
> 
> I don't think any composer will ever possess a 100% success rate with respect to communication with audiences. That which captures listeners' and recording producers' fancy is not necessarily the barometer by which a musical work's merits can be comprehensively assessed.
> 
> True, there are reasons why some symphonies have languished in obscurity. However, it's rather churlish to state that it's "very good" for such compositions to reap the fate that has befallen onto them...


I have seldom seen such a twisting of a post as this! If the listeners "fancy" is not the barometer to go by what is---your opinion?


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## Prodromides

No, moody, I was not referring to opinions (anybody's opinions - not only mine) - and I certainly wasn't forcing my opinion on whichever criteria one can use to assess a musical work.

If the collective tastes of music listeners demonstrate consumer patterns towards specific styles, performers, composers, etc., then - yes - these are valid barometers for many people to make their decisions on which albums to purchase or which concerts to attend or whomever composer(s) to follow.

However, we consumers are on the receiving end. We choose from whichever repertoire/products have been made available for the marketplace. Many factors contribute towards how final products are made available. Out of these many factors, I wish to focus on the music publisher as well as the music producer.

Typically, a composition requires publication before its performance. This is like the vicious circle on the plight of the recent college graduate seeking employment with little or no work-related experience on the resume. The music publisher functions, to some extent, as a type of 'advocate' for the music. I don't know all the aspects which weigh in during the publishers' decision making process, but the rejection (of a composition) that prevents publication is a major obstacle between an artist's work and its potential consumers. Is this fair? No. It is fate.

In a different sort of way, record album producers can viewed as advocates for music, as well. I've no inside information on specifics, but I've gotten the impression that the expenditure might cost in the neighborhood of $30,000 to mount a new recording of a symphonic music. Obviously, economics & business decisions enter. If a new album on music by Bach exceeds - say - 10,000 units, then the Bach would be a more fiscally sound venture than a new recording session on symphonies by Josef Tal, whose music may have only about 300 to 500 interested persons worldwide (and this is just a "guesstimate").

I didn't wish to get long-winded about all this, but, considering these sorts of obstacles which delay world premiere recordings (perhaps even suppress them altogether), the _absence_ of any given composer's symphonic output on recorded media throughout the decades is not necessarily a reflection on the quality of the music itself.

If you are/were a composer whose symphony #X had to wait 45 years or longer to receive its first recording, does this imply that your music is bad? If symphony #X had been on an LP in the 1960s or '70s, and subsequently had a 2nd recording of it released on CD during the '80s or '90s, does this mean it is in any way "better" than music which remains unrecorded to this day?

Indeed, to circle back to the original post I was responding to, which music deserves to remain unheard? And how do we determine such?


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## Wandering

Furtwangler's 2nd


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Clovis said:


> Furtwangler's 2nd


He did _WHAT???_


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## Arsakes

tankership said:


> Glazunov
> 
> 8 Symphonies and not really a stinker in the bunch.
> 
> Alexander Glazunov - Symphony No. 1 in E major, Op. 5, "Slavyanskaya" - II. Scherzo: Allegro


I recommend first 4 symphony of Glazunov. They're very 'adorable'. I have to listen to other 5 more.


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## techniquest

Try this one: the 4th Symphony of Gila Kancheli, subtitled 'In Memoriam Michelangelo'. It has extremes of loud and soft which can be right next to one another, so if you turn the volume up to hear a soft part, don't be surprised to get a sudden blast of brass & percussion! It's also a good one for people who like bells - particularly near the beginning. Part 1:





Part 2 also has the extreme dynamics. Look out for an amazing 3/4-time orchestra and bell exchange (2.30).


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## clavichorder

presto said:


> The symphonies of Kozeluch, every bit as good as Haydn!


Kozeluch is fantastic! I first heard of him in this obscure classical era symphonies series that I bought. His stood out the most of anyone in that series.

Henri Joseph Rigel!!! He is my favorite obscure classicist. Very nutty and unpredictable, always interesting. 





Also up there with those two is Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach
This earlier one very much in the vein of his older brother





This one more in the vein of Haydn but with better wind writing and CPE rhythms


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## EqualMoneySystem

+1 for Freitas Branco, Berwald and Louise Farrenc

Others that deserve more attention:

Aulis Sallinen - Symphony no. 4
Allan Pettersson - Symphony no. 7
Rued Langgaard - Symphony no. 4
Herman Koppel - Symphony no. 5
Kalevi Aho - Symphonies no. 4 & 7
Akutagawa - Ellora Symphony
Eisler - Deutsche Sinfonie 
Gubaidulina - Stimmen Verstummen
Weigl - Symphony no. 5
Dutilleux - Symphony no. 2
Rubbra - Symphony no. 4
Kurt Atterberg - Symphony no. 6
Korngold - Symphony in F
Lutoslawski - Symphony no. 4
Holmboe - Symphony no. 8


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## Ramako

clavichorder said:


> Kozeluch is fantastic! I first heard of him in *this obscure classical era symphonies series that I bought*.


What series?!?!?


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## clavichorder

Ramako said:


> What series?!?!?


You are in for a treat!
http://www.amazon.com/Chandos-Contemporaries-Mozart/lm/3NJLOADIV4HIU


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## Wandering

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> He did _WHAT???_


Barenboim released a recording several years ago of Furwangler's 2nd symphony with Chicago SO. In the booklet it spoke of how Furtwangler was considered for and highly wanted to take the main conducting post for the orchestra. It also mentions the very young Barenboim meeting Furtwangler. I'd never known of this symphony if it were'nt for this recording. There are a few other recordings available also. I think Furtwangler left a 3rd Symphony incomplete, I could be wrong?


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## Ramako

clavichorder said:


> You are in for a treat!
> http://www.amazon.com/Chandos-Contemporaries-Mozart/lm/3NJLOADIV4HIU


That looks great - I've already got the Stamitz one from a recommendation on here - and that was really good. Hmmm, finance... I'll probably just make my way through them over time.

It's also a very good way of getting these symphonies better known. Most people will agree that the best of these composers are just as good as the middling/good/very good works of Haydn and Mozart, but because the names are obscure, the music is never touched. Some of them are better known than others in their own right of course.


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## mtmailey

AMY BEACH e minor symphony it sounds good for a female i have it on cd


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## clavichorder

^^^^^^
Samuel Wesley is one on that list that is quite good. In the beginning of his career, he was dubbed the English Mozart. Legend has it that Wesley had a head injury in his early 20s though, and his composing career was less sure footed as a result.

Listen for yourself to see how graceful and interesting his works from his late teens were, more advanced than the Johann Christian Bach gallant style that was prevalent in England at the time.






Not appearing on that list like Rigel mentioned above, is Joseph Martin Kraus, a German composer who worked primarily out of Stockholm, Sweden. Kraus had a mighty and adventuresome way with sturm and drang, as evidenced in this slow intro, producing a more serious sound than one generally expects to hear from the non-Mozart's of this era.






And this example from the Czech composer Leopold Kozeluch is a great demonstration of the composer's great melodic and thematic gifts, a very graceful piece of work that wastes no time, it has a lilting rhythm in the fast section:






Going further back, Johann Stamitz was in my opinion a better composer than his son, Carl. Certainly more influential and important as well, and somehow Stamitz has this magical cuteness contained in early classical symphonies of very small dimensions, something Haydn only seems to do in his first 4 symphonies, and most successfully in his 1st, which brings up the point that Stamitz seems to have had a strong influence over Haydn:


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## Delicious Manager

mtmailey said:


> AMY BEACH e minor symphony it sounds good for a female i have it on cd


"it sounds good for a female". What the HELL is that supposed to mean?


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## clavichorder

But wait! I'm not yet finished. With J. Stamitz we started making motions to the origins of the symphony. Many interesting products are to be found from the early years of the symphony.

An interesting specimen is Franz Xaver Richter, an alleged Mannheim composer connected with J. Stamitz. Yet as you listen, it becomes less clear as to when this music was made; the sequences of early classicism are prevalent and yet there is a certain plodding and contrapuntal content that reminds one of Telemann, Handel, Graupner, and other high baroque co. This fusion doesn't in and of itself explain the odd dissonances that seem to come up regularly, but maybe the fact that the man even thought to both hop on the trendiest musical bandwagon during the time(Mannheim School) and also be a disciplined contrapuntalist in the fashion of the high baroque gives us a clue. It should be noted that some of his symphonies more closely resemble sonata form, unlike this one:






Georg Anton Benda, another Czech of the classical era composed the most similar instrumental music to CPE Bach I have yet heard, though he can't help but have his own harmonic and melodic foot prints:





And that brings us to a dear favorite of mine, Wilhelm Friedemann Bach.

I had a dream of this symphony once; back in the annuls of talkclassical, I detailed its significance, the composer appearing to me as you see him in my avatar handed me a fish with a sly grin on his face right as an oboe part came in. A very compact and unusual creation, WF Bach might be the single quirkiest composer of the 18th century, and this is the only such instance of him writing in this 3 movement form his younger brother liked, with much classical restraint. The version I came to know is much more leisurely than this one:


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## clavichorder

For the final segment (for now), the following by WF Bach is a wonderful piece(probably his greatest instrumental work), but how it must be noted that "sinfonie" is more of a baroque title in this case. Really its the "adagio and fugue in d minor":






And now that the symphony is becoming a hazier thing, I can put forth the 3 movement, high baroque sounding creations(symphonies) of a favorite english composer of mine, William Boyce. The following piece is actually quite famous and often mistaken for Handel until people actually read the track listing of their "best of baroque" compilation:






Such extreme Handelian brilliance doesn't seem like it should hail from a name as unknown as Boyce, maybe its just a fluke or something? Nope:






There's six more where that came from. My favorite is no. 3 in C major.


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## Wandering

William Boyce was a symphony man Pre-Haydn, if such a thing exists?; Also one of the most well-known English composers between Purcell and Elgar, if such a thing exists??? 

Except Gilbert and Sullivan....

If you like Handel chances are you'll also enjoy Boyce.


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## oogabooha

I remember reading on here about (and consequentially listening to) a symphony that absolutely blew my mind and was completely unexpected...but I don't remember the composer's name. I remember reading that it was preferred to Mahler by some people, and I think the name is something along the lines of Mott or it started with an M or E or something

I also am pretty sure it was in E-Major, so if anyone can shed some light on which symphony it is, I would really appreciate it!


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## Wandering

oogabooha said:


> I remember reading on here about (and consequentially listening to) a symphony that absolutely blew my mind and was completely unexpected...but I don't remember the composer's name. I remember reading that it was preferred to Mahler by some people, and I think the name is something along the lines of Mott or it started with an M or E or something
> 
> I also am pretty sure it was in E-Major, so if anyone can shed some light on which symphony it is, I would really appreciate it!


I almost positive it's the symphony of Hans Rott.


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## oogabooha

Clovis said:


> I almost positive it's the symphony of Hans Rott.


Oh yes, that's it. Thanks so much!


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## presto

tankership said:


> Joseph Martin Kraus
> 
> Symphony in C major Violino Obligato
> Symphony in C major
> Symphony in C-sharp minor
> Symphony in E minor
> Symphony in C minor
> Symphony in D major
> Symphony in E-flat Major
> Symphony in F major


I have these and they are very fine works indeed.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I just discovered Kraus. _Amazing_ symphonies I must say!


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## presto

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I just discovered Kraus. _Amazing_ symphonies I must say!


The Swedish Mozart! 
With symphonies this good it gets you thinking what the rest of his output is like!
I've just sampled a Naxos disc of his ballet music, also very high quality music.


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## Morgante

Kalinnikov.

_*The Russians.*_


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## principe

Kraus is a good composer, but we should not overestimate him. 
To see his "great" difference with...Mozart, try his Piano (mostly recorded on Fortepiano) and his Chamber Music, for which is predominantly well known. He wrote some...nice Operas too.

Principe


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## clavichorder

principe said:


> Kraus is a good composer, but we should not overestimate him.
> To see his "great" difference with...Mozart, try his Piano (mostly recorded on Fortepiano) and his Chamber Music, for which is predominantly well known. He wrote some...nice Operas too.
> 
> Principe


No, but we should enjoy him with no reserve of passion either! His music has brought be "great pleasure," regardless of how "great" he is.

We play the game of semantics pretty skillfully here on talkclassical for amateurs.


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## superhorn

Here is a partial list of not very well known symphonies in my CD collection in no particular order .

I have recordings of symphonies by Antron Rubinstein , for example the so-called "Ocean" sympnony .(no 2).
The three symphonies of Czech composer Zdenek Fibich (1850 -1900) . 
Two by America composer John Alden Carpenter. Elliott Carter's only symphony, an early tonal work.
The two by Carl Maria von Weber. Symphonies 1,2 by Gheorghe Enescu . 
Respighi's one symphony (Sinfonia Dramatica). The three of Max Bruch . No 2 by Richard Strauss, from 
his teenage years . 3 and 5 by English composer Robert Simpson (1921-1997). 3 by Arnold Bax.
The three by Ned Rorem. Two by Swedish composer Hugo Alfven (The f is silent ) (1872-1960) .
The four of Karol Szymanowski (no 2 is sort opf a cross between a symphony and a piano concerto).
The one by Bedrich Smetana (Festive symphony). The one by English composer E.J. Moeran .
7 and 31 by Havergal Brian . A Color symphony by English composer Sir Arthur Bliss (each of the four
movements represents a different color !) .1,2 and 4 by Albert Roussel in the Marek janowski set of all four
on RCA (the 3rd is fairly well known). Tippett : no 1. Josef Suk, Asrael symphony .
Carlos Chavez , 1-6 with Eduardo Mata and the LSO. Mily Balakirev ,1,2. 
Nikoilai Myaskovsky: 6,8,2 ,22. and a few others. Rimsky-Korsakov: 1,3. Sergei Liapunov. no 1.
Howard Hanson,3,6. Hans Pfitzner, symphony in C major. Stefan Wolpe, no 1. 
Ernst Toch, no 3. Glazunov, 2, 7. Reinhold Gliere, 1,2. Kahatchaturian, no 2. 
Bruckner, symphony no Zero. Johan Svendsen,1,2. Vassily Kallinikov, 1,2. 
Gorecki, no 2. No 16 by Leif Segerstam with the composer conducting Out of over 200 so far !).
Christopher Rouse, no 2. Martinu, 1-6. 6,7 by Georgian composer Giya Kancheli (1935-).

Lots of interesting stuff here !


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## zeszut

Morgante said:


> Kalinnikov.


^^^ this ^^^


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## Renaissance

This.


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## principe

"Great for pleasure" (brought from any composer) vis a vis "how great" a composer is, I think, it is more than a "game of semantics". It demonstrates some degree of substance in terms of the _quality_of this pleasure, if that matters, clavichorder, to you.
In any case, Kraus, may give enough pleasure in quite a few of his works. Likewise, these of average greatness composers may provide a considerable amount of inventive or creative pleasure: Sigismund Neukomm (some fine orchestral works to be discovered, on various labels), Franz Ignaz Beck (his Symphonies to be found on CPO), or Paul Wranitzky (on Supraphon or CPO too).

Principe


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## PlaySalieri

I herad Bruch sy no 1 for the first - and LAST time. This is no doubt a work that cof av garde and many others would call amazing.
It seems Bruch wrote 2 great works - vc 1 and the scot fant for violin and orch.


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## Renaissance

I don't know if it's well-known or not, but for me is certainly interesting. A kind of baroque symphony.


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## principe

How do you perceive, like or dismiss the Symphonies of Henk Badings Nos. 2, 7 & 12, on CPO?
I can barely accept them as a worthy listening experience.
However, Lous Theodore Gouvy's Symphony No. 6 (on CPO again) seems more interesting in its rather average performance.

Principe


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## neoshredder

Renaissance said:


> I don't know if it's well-known or not, but for me is certainly interesting. A kind of baroque symphony.


I find Boccherini one of the most high energy Composers out there.


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## EqualMoneySystem

Gösta Nystroem - Symphony No. 3 (Sinfonia Del Mare) (1946)


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## EqualMoneySystem

Dora Pejačević - Symphony in F sharp minor, Op. 41 (1918)


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## EqualMoneySystem




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## Laudemont

I appreciate this list. YouTube is also a great place to find obscure symphonies, such as the three by Richard Wetz (a sort of post-Brucknerian flavor).
Has anyone mentioned the 27 symphonies of Nikolai Myaskovsky? Try No. 18 for a starter.
I disagree with an earlier comment denigrating Anthony Paine's completion of Elgar's 3rd Symphony. I have listened to it repeatedly (I own five different recordings of it.)
What about Richard Yardumian, Symphony No. 1?


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## Renaissance




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## KenOC

Has anybody mentioned Étienne Méhul? He wrote four very good symphonies around the time that Beethoven was working on his fifth. The last two were lost and only rediscovered in 1979.

Here's a movement from #2.


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## starthrower

Aulis Sallinen Symphonies Nos. 2, 3, 4, 5, 8


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## Andolink

Egon Wellesz Symphonies 4,5,6,7,8,9.


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## Wandering

Hans Rott's _only_ symphony before madness. Often already mentioned I'm sure.

_Felix Draeseke_

A composer from Liszt's Weimar school, he was fairly big once, particular with the free mp3 symphony at his link under listen to mp3:

http://www.draeseke.org/


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## bejart

No mention of Jan Baptist Vanhal? He was the cellist during the famous string quartet salon performances recorded in the diary of the Irish tenor, Michael Kelly. The other members of the quartet?

Joseph Haydn, 1st violin -- Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf, 2nd violin -- Wolfgang Mozart, viola. Vanhal also wrote some terrific music, including this symphony. I think he was best composing in the minor keys ---


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## KenOC

bejart said:


> No mention of Jan Baptist Vanhal? He was the cellist during the famous string quartet salon performances recorded in the diary of the Irish tenor, Michael Kelly. The other members of the quartet?
> 
> Joseph Haydn, 1st violin -- Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf, 2nd violin -- Wolfgang Mozart, viola. Vanhal also wrote some terrific music, including this symphony.


Now THERE'S an all-star line-up. What would this quartet be named today? I have three Vanhal symphonies, all of them just fine if not quite to the top standards of the times.


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## Progstreaming

I think all 27 symphonies by Myaskovsky are very underrated and ot very well known. My advice towards his symphonies is as simple as practical. Pick a number, the date, your birthday, just a random number. Concentrate on that symphony for a whole week. You will not regret my advice.

For instance, I just random picked the 4th for this thread. Hear this awesome first movement:






Or let's go 10 symphonies up to number 14:






Equally great, isn't it?

To conclude, here's number 24:


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