# Brahms and Hans Rott



## Swosh (Feb 25, 2018)

Has anyone ever heard the story regarding these two? Apparently Brahms completely denounced the efforts of the young composer during a competition. Hans Rott entered his symphony in E Major, and Brahms apparently said there was no way he could have composed it himself. 'Brahms did not like the fact that Bruckner exerted great influence on the Conservatory students, and even told Rott that he had no talent whatsoever and that he should give up music. Unfortunately, Rott lacked Mahler's inner resolve, and whereas Mahler was able to overcome many of the obstacles in his life, Rott was brought down by mental illness.'

Hans Rott was later entered into an asylum, where he would still write music, but because of his deep depression, he destroyed most of his works. He died of tuberculosis alone in an asylum, thinking he could never be good enough, when he was my age... What do you all think of this curious story? Do you agree that his symphony in E Major shows no talent?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

It is a symphony that can stand with some of the best 19th century symphonies. Listen to the wonderfully majestic/regal passage starting at 12:33.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Rott was a sensitive individual and Brahms was known for his tactlessness and insensitivity — perhaps a prescription waiting for disaster. Whatever Rott had hopes for in getting his symphony played by meeting Brahms looks ill-considered and he was apparently crushed by Brahms' remarks, which didn't help Rott's unstable frame of mind: 

"Brahms apparently even told Rott that he had no talent whatsoever and that he should give up music. Unfortunately, Rott lacked Mahler's inner resolve, and whereas Mahler was able to overcome many of the obstacles in his life, Rott was brought down by mental illness."

That he thought of asking for Brahms' advice or approval in the first place seems highly unfortunate... tragic, because I believe Rott was sincere in asking for his advice, and had Brahms known of Rott's mental illness he might... might!... have acted differently.

“If there is anyone here whom I have not insulted, I beg his pardon.” ― Johannes Brahms


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Swafford mentions it.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

There are at least six versions on CD (I have two of them) - not bad for an obscure composer with "no talent whatsoever".


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

From the first measures you could tell it would not be to Brahms' taste. Rott's principal fault was choosing Brahms as the one to show it to -- and if he'd been more familiar with Brahms' music, rather his reputation, he might have known better.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2019)

I like Rott’s symphony. I think he had plenty of talent.


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## Cadenza (Sep 24, 2012)

jegreenwood said:


> Swafford mentions it.


Yes, page 505. Pretty much as reported here and its results. Very unfortunate.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

When entering a composition into a competition one should receive fair treatment. It is not the same as getting a more experienced composer's opinion in some other context. In view of the OP and its quote -- from where? -- Brahms was disrespectful and verbally abusive to Hans Rott. 

While Bruckner had influence on the Conservatory students -- he taught harmony -- Brahms also had a lot of influence there, with members of his circle on the faculty including Robert Fuchs who taught composition. Brahms's comments to Rott can be seen as another instance of the well-known animosity between the circles of Brahms and of Wagner/Bruckner, including Brahms's intense dislike of Bruckner's works. In this case his words created poisonous and eventually tragic results for Rott the innocent victim; one often had to enter competitions to get recognized and have one's music performed.

Hans Rott and Gustav Mahler were roommates for a while. Of course Rott's Symphony is an excellent work showing the influence of Bruckner, and comparisons with Mahler's First Symphony are interesting from the point of view of what Mahler learned from the slightly older Rott. It's true that Mahler had more inner resolve but he also had a strong and sometimes abrasive personality. I wouldn't have liked to be a music composition student back then.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Bruckner famously has a Symphony No. 0. So does Mahler, if one considers his Symphony No. 0 is the E Major Symphony by Hans Rott.


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## Swosh (Feb 25, 2018)

Oh interesting, I guess it's possible that Mahler and Hans wrote the symphony together.


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## Swosh (Feb 25, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> Bruckner famously has a Symphony No. 0. So does Mahler, if one considers his Symphony No. 0 is the E Major Symphony by Hans Rott.


Do you think it was by Mahler, or co-written by them both?


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

SONNET CLV said:


> Bruckner famously has a Symphony No. 0. So does Mahler, if one considers his Symphony No. 0 is the E Major Symphony by Hans Rott.


Mahler actually did have his own "Symphony No. 0" -- at least two and possibly three, in fact, by his own admission and corroborated by Natalie Bauer-Lechner. These were either lost, destroyed by Mahler himself, or accidentally destroyed (according to Mengelberg, as late as WWII, as something of Mahler's was apparently in Dresden).


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