# In what way did Liszt make the most lasting impact? Poll/discussion



## Sid James

*In what way do you think Liszt make the most lasting impact on classical music? You can choose one option in the poll* -*

For his -

1. Variety of music appealing to many listeners & musicians alike

2. Overall refinement/development of keyboard technique

3. Use of new techniques generally - eg. thematic transformation, atonality, imaginative reworking of old techniques

4. Use of newly (re-)emerging forms - eg. tone poems, rhapsodies, single movt. concertos & sonatas

5. Promotion of other composer's music as both pianist & conductor - eg. disseminating music with his transcriptions, premiering works by Schumann, Wagner, Berlioz, Verdi, Donizetti, etc.

6. As one of the major composers of the c19th, esp. with regards to the "Romantic" movement

7. Making classical music look "sexy" and exciting in his time

8. Being the first significant composer-musician to come out of Hungary (& Eastern Europe)

9. Other big impacts you can think of

10. I don't think he was actually that great, I think others at that time made a bigger impact.

* Votes are public (Forgive any "vagueness" between the choices, there will inevitably be "overlaps" between them, but you can just explain why you chose what you did & in that make your own "definition" of what these options mean to you personally, given your own experience, etc.)


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## Weston

I chose newly emerging forms, thinking particularly of the tone poem. I know he did amazing things for piano technique, but I feel desultory about that. What good is developing virtuoso techniques if you're going to misuse them? I find much of his piano music frustrating, made up of wonderful phrases and snatches of melody interrupted by flashes of pyrotechnics to the point they just sound like ongoing "silent movie" styled piano. I'd rather hear the melodic phrases uninterrupted. You don't need a cadenza between each melodic phrase. That's the impression I get of his piano music anyway. I could be exaggerating a bit. I don't hear other composers being influenced by this, thank goodness!

However I do love his orchestral work and feel the tone poem genre may have taken off because of him. A good recording of _Les Preludes_ can knock me out of my seat.


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## Argus

Keeping the same hairstyle throughout his life.



















I'd be well chuffed to reach my seventies with such a bristly mane.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

I would say #4 and #6. Liszt and Romanticism; inseparable. Liszt and the tone poem; again inseparable.


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## Manxfeeder

Though I think his impact was in his techniques and forms, I think to the average person, his most lasting impact has been turning the piano sideways in concert and displaying flamboyance, in essence becoming the prototype rock star.


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## tdc

I just consider him a composer of great music, he probably was in ways (one of the) precursors to the 'flamboyant rock star'. But I'm really neither here nor there on that, seeing as I've never witnessed a live Liszt performance. I like the fact that he was virtuosic enough at his instrument to make other virtuoso's take notice, clearly he reached an incredibly high level of mastery over his instrument. That is something I have a lot of respect for, but its not something I'd consider THAT important compared to the quality of his compositions (not that interpretive brilliance isn't as relevant, but seeing as I've never heard him play). The bottom line is I just think he was a great composer first and foremost, an innovative composer, and one of the major composers of the 19th century and I enjoy listening to his music.


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## Rasa

Forms, definitely. The Tone poem became an important genre.


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## Manxfeeder

tdc said:


> He probably was in ways (one of the) precursors to the 'flamboyant rock star'. But I'm really neither here nor there on that, seeing as I've never witnessed a live Liszt performance.


Here are some interesting caricatures of him in concert. It's funny; he doesn't look or act much different from rock stars.


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## Sid James

*@ Weston* - I agree with the gist of your arguments re some of his music does seem likely that there is potential for "filler" material. You may well have heard more of his music to make this judgement (the man was hugely prolific, & now thanks to pianists like Leslie Howard, we have everything by Liszt on disc, from the "best" to the "filler" things, less significant pieces that were indeed "works in progress" - I went to a recital of Dr Howard & he played & talked about some of these works & their relation with the more significant works that were to come). But at his best, Liszt's way of transforming themes is very interesting to listen to for me. I think like Charles Ives, the transitions between more appealing or "strong" ideas & ones that may sound somewhat "trite" or "sweet" to our modern ears, is not always smooth. But that's the same for many pioneers/innovators - I think Ives comes across like this sometimes as well, but I actuallly love him for these "quirks." Not everything has to be highly professionally integrated & kind of "intellectualised" like (say) in Stravinsky or Webern (but I like them as well, but for different reasons). I think guys like Beethoven did kind of strike a balance between these disparate things, but it's hard to compare Beethoven to Liszt (even though some see or saw Liszt as Beethoven's successor, but I don't think it's as simple as that, despite Liszt adoring Beethoven - as well as Schubert & Weber). You're right suggesting that sometimes Liszt kind of let go in big ways, he kind of let it "all hang out." But for many, that's a part of the appeal of his style.

Then again, his masses for voices & organ marry the restraint of guys like Palestrina with a more "rhapsodic" or tonally "experimental" edge. So Liszt was a man of many faces, just as complex and varied as his musics. I agree fully re _Les Preludes_, one of the first works I got to know by Liszt, & it's still a big favourite, though recently I've gravitated towards his piano things, the two symphonies, masses/motets, & even heard a chamber work of his - _At Wagner's Grave _for piano & string quartet - live a few months back (sounded kind of minimalistic to me, another "innovation" or "refinement" by the man? - I don't know, I didn't read the program notes to dig deeper into this interesting but very brief work). Dr Howard, at that lecture/recital, incidentally said he thought Karajan's interpretations of Les Preludes with a kind of Nazi "goose-stepping" effect was wrong. I can't judge as I haven't heard Karajan's "take" on this work, but I know Karajan to do many things in a heavy & darkish way. But Dr Howard didn't say with recording/interpretation of the work he personally favours or thinks is more faithful to the intentions of the composer. This "debate" shows how different "takes" on Liszt's works can kind of "make or break" them, but I suppose that's true for anything else, really.



tdc said:


> I just consider him a composer of great music, he probably was in ways (one of the) precursors to the 'flamboyant rock star'....


This is true, he had two sides to his personality. Someone who loved the pleasures of life but also had a deep spiritual side. This dual personality really comes through in his music. & I like the pictures of the man posted by Argus - the other "two sides of the coin" - the young Liszt with the "posterboy" looks & the old Liszt who took minor orders & lived in Rome (as a special guest of the Vatican, I think?) for many years. Then (as my poll alludes to) there's the teacher, some of his pupils like the conductor Hans von Bulow, were to become famous in their own right...



> The bottom line is I just think he was a great composer first and foremost, an innovative composer, and one of the major composers of the 19th century and I enjoy listening to his music.


This puts it in a nutshell very well, imo. Sums up the man to a tee...


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## Aksel

Manxfeeder said:


> Here are some interesting caricatures of him in concert. It's funny; he doesn't look or act much different from rock stars.


Or Lang Lang, for that matter.


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## Sid James

Aksel said:


> Or Lang Lang, for that matter.


I was thinking exactly the same kind of thing. But Lang Lang is not the only one who does this kind of "acting" when he's playing (& it's not only pianists, of course). Personally I don't mind if they do too much of this, as long as I don't see them. But still, some musicians show more of a "persona" or "ego" more than others, they're all individuals just like we all are...


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## Sid James

I finally got around to voting in "my" own poll. *I chose option 3: Use of new techniques generally - eg. thematic transformation, atonality, imaginative reworking of old techniques.*

These are things like writing whole-tone (chromatic) music, with those harmonies that had lain largely dormant since the times of Gesualdo (but I think others, like Beethoven in his late works, also used these to more or less degree). With that, things like Liszt's two symphonies aren't in any particular key, which ushered in some less used harmonies, which I just like because they're so different. A number of his late piano works - like the two pieces _La Lugubre Gondola_ - pointed towards the atonality of Schoenberg (& these late works, unlike say the late chamber works of Brahms, do not speak to the "balm of old age," with these, Liszt really brings out the less attractive/comforting aspects of a person at the end of his life, many thoughts of mortality, death & the life cycle, but also with much wisdom like Brahms, but in an entirely different - more darker? -way). Other things like thematic transformation really got off the ground with Liszt (although Beethoven also made an impact here earlier as well). A number of the three books of _The Years of Pilgrimage _also explore harmonies & mood or place pictures as Debussy would (& the young Debussy, when a student in Rome, actually saw the elderly Liszt in performance). Then there's the "traditional" side of Liszt, heard in his sacred choral works, which have strong echoes & revivify techniques laid down by Palestrina (Wagner, Debussy, Bruckner were also big fans of Palestrina as well).

In a nutshell, it's these more experimental & kind of left-field (for his time, but they even sound very fresh to me today) aspects of his music, combined with his understanding of the music of earlier masters like Palestrina, J.S. Bach, Beethoven & others, that probably attracts me most to Liszt...


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## tdc

Sid James said:


> I was thinking exactly the same kind of thing. But Lang Lang is not the only one who does this kind of "acting" when he's playing (& it's not only pianists, of course). Personally I don't mind if they do too much of this, as long as I don't see them. But still, some musicians show more of a "persona" or "ego" more than others, they're all individuals just like we all are...


Well I haven't listened to a lot of Lang Lang, but from the comments I've read about him here, many seem to suggest his theatrics often hinder his actual performances. If this is the case I don't think the Lang Lang comparison is fair because there is no evidence (that I've come across) of Liszt's performances being effected by his theatrics. I completely agree that what is of importance is how well the piece is actually performed (how it sounds). That being said, when I do see performers I'm not crazy about over the top theatrics, but I find lifeless expressions devoid of any signs of emotion as bad or worse.

Here is an example:






I would say this performance is top notch, but lacking a little in intensity. Showing some signs that one is actually enjoying themselves in the process (or feeling/experiencing something) can be helpful in getting across the intensity of this piece imo.


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## elgar's ghost

I think being a proud Hungarian went in his favour - it seemed to give him an aura of mystique and exoticism which must have been good for his reputation/PR especially when on tour. I can just imagine him giving an expansive eye-roll and controlling himself with difficulty when yet another star-struck admirer assumed he was Austrian...


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## Sid James

Yes, elgars ghost, his "mystique" and aura was a powerful attraction, for especially women but also many guys (in terms of "admiration" for various reasons, both musical & not!). I think he even said (or it was said of him) that he had a bit of "Gypsy blood." Things like this certainly added to his "sexiness," but of course there were many layers to this complex creative genius, a musical polymath of the ages...


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## regressivetransphobe

Turning into a witch.


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## Couchie

He had sex and made Wagner's wife.


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## Aramis

Where is "political activity during Spring of Nations period"?


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## Sid James

Couchie said:


> He had sex and made Wagner's wife.


:lol:

Which reminds me, Liszt was not really a good father to Cosima, neither was her mother "good" in that department, as far as I can tell. They were both busy with their own pursuits. I think Cosima rarely saw either of them, she was virtually bought up by other people, a bit like a "virtual orphan." Kind of sad?



Aramis said:


> Where is "political activity during Spring of Nations period"?


You mean 1848, the Hungarian war of independence & all that? I don't know what he did involving that. If you can, please tell us briefly, thanks. I know that he did do a good amount of charity work, esp. for Hungary. When the Tisza flooded badly & totally wiped out the beautiful regional city of Szeged, Liszt played a series of benefit concerts, raising money to help with the rebuilding of that city & other things like that. I think his heart was basically in the right place regarding these types of "human" things, often we just focus on his "ego" (of which he had a fair amount, of course, but he was far from one-sided like that, as far as I can gather)...


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## Aramis

Sid James said:


> You mean 1848, the Hungarian war of independence & all that? I don't know what he did involving that. If you can, please tell us briefly, thanks. I know that he did do a good amount of charity work, esp. for Hungary. When the Tisza flooded badly & totally wiped out the beautiful regional city of Szeged, Liszt played a series of benefit concerts, raising money to help with the rebuilding of that city & other things like that. I think his heart was basically in the right place regarding these types of "human" things, often we just focus on his "ego" (of which he had a fair amount, of course, but he was far from one-sided like that, as far as I can gather)...


Yes, the charity concerts too, this activity of his reminds one that Paderewski undertook half of century later. But more than that - he was involved in conspiration and after one of his concerts in Warsaw he received conspirational documents that he took with him and delivered to proper hands as he was proceeding with his concert tour to Russia. Quite serious business. I have this information from this book:










And I'm not sure if such information appears in many others. But it seems rather reliable as whole thing is described with detail - in the evening Liszt is visited by poets under the pretext of showing him tribute poem (which one of them actually wrote and it's quite awesome, I tell you) and entrusted him the dangerous shipment which he took with him and, as I said, delivered it to proper hands. I assure you, one had to have guts to do such thing back in the day.


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## Sid James

*@ Aramis* - Thanks for that, quite interesting.

What Liszt did (according to your sources) sounds similar to me what happened in Dumas' novel _The Count of Monte Christo_. Edmond Dantes gave a letter to Napoleon (on the island of Elba, I think?) but didn't know that it was a risky thing to do (basically being a "spy"). Thus wrongly accused of conspiracy, he ends up imprisoned for life. I think you know the rest, the "happy" ending. Maybe things like Dumas' fictional novel were based on things he gleaned from things like Liszt's escapade as a "spy" that were clearly happening at the time?...


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## TrazomGangflow

He basically did all of those things along with being another composer with the first name Franz. That is very important. (I love how many composers have the same first name)


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## Lisztian

All of the above, minus the not great one.


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