# Blind Spots in the Blind Audtions Study



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

There were flaws in the blind study of Goldin and Rouse, lionized by Gladstone, Ruth Vader Ginsberg and others, was revealed to be flawed, or at least was misinterpreted by many authorities. This is from the Monday, Oct. 21st Wall Street Journal.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Always the nitpicking after the fact. Blind auditions were a great boon to help get deserving women into orchestras that were previously male dominated. That might not have been the only factor but it was certainly one factor and an important one that helped change the climate about having women in orchestras. Some of the top-notch orchestras now have almost 1/2 of the membership as deserving women or they wouldn’t be sitting there.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

Orchestras today have quotas just like any other industry. It is what it is, a necessity in other fields that employ a large percentage of the population but perhaps an unnecessary whim in the arts.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

1996D said:


> Orchestras today have quotas just like any other industry. It is what it is, a necessity in other fields that employ a large percentage of the population but perhaps an unnecessary whim in the arts.


Evidence? What does this have to do with blind auditions, which would work against quotas?


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

The article for those that don't wnat to search the interwebs:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/blind-spots-in-the-blind-audition-study-11571599303


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> Evidence? What does this have to do with blind auditions, which would work against quotas?


It's not all orchestras, the Vienna Philharmonic is still almost all male but state orchestras like the BBC certainly have quotas in place. All Western governments without exception have quotas.

Blind auditions are in place but that should change nothing: it doesn't in Vienna.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

1996D said:


> It is what it is, a necessity in other fields that employ a large percentage of the population but perhaps an unnecessary whim in the arts.


I don't think you answered Eddie's question. Exactly what fields are you talking about that "employ a large percent of the population" and require quotas for some unique reason? And if there's an answer to that, then what in the hypothetical would make quotas more of a 'whim' in the arts than in those industries?



> Blind auditions are in place but that should change nothing: it doesn't in Vienna.


Right, that's because women aren't exactly quaking with excitement at the thought of even auditioning at Vienna at all. This should not be hard to imagine if you know the first thing about Vienna and all its creepy chauvinism. https://www.wqxr.org/story/tromboni...harmonic-then-she-fought-them-court-13-years/ Maybe they took a look at Abbie Conant's 13-year litigation with Munich and had the crazy thought that, I don't know, 15 years of biting and clawing through unfounded demotions and balderdash medical tests to 'win back' the job that _you won_ (after show-stopping the blind auditions halfway through) seems like it would be a tiny bit of a hassle.

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/04/arts/women-are-as-scarce-as-change-at-vienna-orchestra.html Scarcity of women showing up for initial auditions discussed here. Blind auditions indeed won't change much in Vienna until Vienna itself changes, which it obviously is not planning to.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

1996D said:


> It's not all orchestras, the Vienna Philharmonic is still almost all male but state orchestras like the BBC certainly have quotas in place. All Western governments without exception have quotas.


In the US there are no "government" orchestras outside of the military. Most are private not-for-profit corporations. I know of none with formal quotas, though many or most have various diversity goals.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

^

They might not be out in the open because people don't exactly react well to them, but almost all corporations have quotas as well, formal or not.



Minor Sixthist said:


> I don't think you answered Eddie's question. Exactly what fields are you talking about that "employ a large percent of the population" and require quotas for some unique reason? And if there's an answer to that, then what in the hypothetical would make quotas more of a 'whim' in the arts than in those industries?


Quotas make consumerism work better by putting money in the pockets of the largest consumers--women--and consumerism is what makes this society run. They are completely money and control driven, or at least that's how they began.

While they are necessary almost everywhere, orchestras should follow Vienna, it's the best in the world for a reason, and that reason is tradition. It's also true that orchestras employ very few, there is no need to politicize them unless they represent a government.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

1996D said:


> They might not be out in the open because people don't exactly react well to them, but almost all corporations have quotas as well, formal or not.


Since I have been unaware of this, I will be better informed if you will be so kind as to offer some evidence supporting what you say. Also, if the quotas are not "formal." some guidance on what an "informal quota" is would also be welcome.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I deeply question whether quotas have ever been used in music. It's anti-artistic and no one is going to accept anyone who does not have the ability. Open auditions that are blind or not is something entirely different. Either post that you know whether an orchestra has a quota or not. But please do not assert that they exist without having something to back it up, such as a reference for citation, because it makes a mess of the subject. This entire subject has been gone over in the women conductor's thread and now it's been dug up again with the same intellectual carelessness. It might exist, but I have no conscious knowledge of specific quotas being used in orchestras, or recommendations that they be used, and please do not bring in other professions to try to bolster this idea of quotas in the hiring of female musicians in orchestras. Professional fields are different. I have never seen quotas recommended to help solve the gender imbalance that does exist in some orchestras. So there's no proof that quotas are being used or should be used. I consider it the worst idea in the world because the players would not be hired on merit and women are capable of being hired based on merit.

Good article on the gender disparity: https://qz.com/work/1393078/orchestras/
It still exists but there has been progress because the women have become more capable.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Here's one of the posts referenced in the article, for anyone who wants to read about the data minus the hundreds of words of self-impressed throat-clearing by the hack right wing pundit: https://statmodeling.stat.columbia....ind-orchestra-auditions-really-benefit-women/


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

In my days as an active horn player, I went thorough that blind audition process quite a few times , for example, with the New York Philharmonic, the National symphony orchestra in Washington, and the New Jersey symphony . 
At the NY Phil . and others, they generally have ten applicants play before the personal manager tells you which ones are being advanced to the finals or not . Each applicant has a number, so the audition committee has no way of knowing if you're male or female . Once you'
re sitting in front of the audition committee behind the screen, you are advised not to say anything so they can;'t tell by your voice . If you have a question, you whisper to the personnel manager before he or she leaves . 
There are usually a lot more than ten applicants at any audition . I think this system works , because the number of women members of orchestras has increased so much since they began it .


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

isorhythm said:


> Here's one of the posts referenced in the article, for anyone who wants to read about the data minus the hundreds of words of self-impressed throat-clearing by the hack right wing pundit: https://statmodeling.stat.columbia....ind-orchestra-auditions-really-benefit-women/


The 'hack right-wing pundit' is actually a registered democrat. Anyways, the article you posted pointed out many of the same flaws in the study as the 'hack right-wing pundit' the major difference is that it claimed these flaws were recognised by academia for a while in contrast to the article in the WSJ.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

1996D said:


> Orchestras today have quotas just like any other industry. It is what it is, a necessity in other fields that employ a large percentage of the population but perhaps an unnecessary whim in the arts.


i don't think orchestras hire on any quota system....some orchestras give preference to their owners nationals, over alien applicants, but that is not a quota system, per se.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Quote Originally Posted by* 1996D * 
"Orchestras today have quotas just like any other industry. It is what it is, a necessity in other fields that employ a large percentage of the population but perhaps an unnecessary whim in the arts."
---
Please stop making completely ridiculous statements such as this unless you can document it as practiced by different orchestras. It does no one a favor to simply make things up. Quotas would never work in orchestras because it would mean they were not necessarily getting the best players who were auditioning... and women have proven themselves entirely up to the task. There are more women in orchestras now than ever before and not because of #@&* quotas!


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## DBLee (Jan 8, 2018)

superhorn said:


> I think this system works , because the number of women members of orchestras has increased so much since they began it .


Correlation does not equal causation. Other factors in recent decades have contributed to the increased numbers of women in orchestras; e.g., the receptivity of orchestras and audiences to women musicians, and the number of women trained and prepared for careers in a professional orchestra. Screened auditions may have contributed as well, but a flawed study does not prove that; and who knows--there may have been occasions when a woman might have won the position over a man if the audition was viewed as well as heard.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

superhorn said:


> In my days as an active horn player, I went thorough that blind audition process quite a few times , for example, with the New York Philharmonic, the National symphony orchestra in Washington, and the New Jersey symphony .
> At the NY Phil . and others, they generally have ten applicants play before the personal manager tells you which ones are being advanced to the finals or not . Each applicant has a number, so the audition committee has no way of knowing if you're male or female . Once you'
> re sitting in front of the audition committee behind the screen, you are advised not to say anything so they can;'t tell by your voice . If you have a question, you whisper to the personnel manager before he or she leaves .
> There are usually a lot more than ten applicants at any audition .  I think this system works , because the number of women members of orchestras has increased so much since they began it .


The number of women has dramatically increased in many fields that employed no equivalent of blind auditions.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

One might well object STRENUOUSLY to the complete absence of males among harpists attached to major orchestras...

Any exceptions, please note.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

In a search under “male harpists in orchestras,” click on “images” and you’ll see a number of pictures of men playing the harp. While there may not be as many men playing the instrument as women—the instrument has of course long been associated with women—nevertheless there are a number of men playing in or with orchestras. So it’s rare but not unheard of... It looks like gender barriers and stereotypes continue to be broken. Notice the increasing number of female brass players in orchestras now on instruments that seemed to be promoted exclusively in the past for males. The gender barriers continue to come down—I believe for the good of a wider freedom of self-expression—and I doubt if this could have been accomplished without blind auditions that take some of the gender prejudice out of the equation. It’s just as possible there could have been a prejudice against male harpists as female brass players.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Larkenfield said:


> In a search under "male harpists in orchestras," click on "images" and you'll see a number of pictures of men playing the harp.


It would be far more satisfying to see the names of orchestras with male harpists on the payroll. I'll wait for that.

*One study*: "Of the 2,438 full-time musicians we looked at, 1,677 (69%) were men. But in many instruments, men were even more disproportionately represented. Bassoon (86% male), double bass (95%), and timpani (96%) players are predominately men. Just one of the 103 trumpet players in the 22 orchestras is a woman, and there are no women among the 99 trombonists and 26 tuba players. Only the harp, which is 94% female, is as skewed in the other direction."

Women also have a slight lead in violins and flutes.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

1996D said:


> It's not all orchestras, the Vienna Philharmonic is still almost all male but state orchestras like the BBC certainly have quotas in place. All Western governments without exception have quotas.
> 
> Blind auditions are in place but that should change nothing: it doesn't in Vienna..


There is certainly no indication of quotas being used in orchestras in this BBC report... and music is a profession, not an industry or gov't position. As stated in the report, the hiring has only been on the basis of _artistic merit_, as I believe it should be:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-35745169/are-women-being-excluded-from-orchestras

The Vienna Philharmonic dropped its objections to admitting women in 1996 after the government threatened to cut off funding. But while women were given access to auditions, none were recruited. As of 2013, the orchestra had six female members; one of them, violinist Albena Danailova became one of the orchestra's concertmasters in 2008, the first woman to hold that position. In January 2005, Australian conductor Simone Young became the first woman to conduct the Vienna Philharmonic.

Not to justify its objections to women members, but the Vienna Phil is a remarkable orchestra and sensitive to any possible changes in its traditional sound:



> Bruno Walter told an interviewer on Austrian Radio in 1960 that hearing the Vienna Philharmonic for the first time in 1897 was for Walter: "...a life-altering impression, because it was this sound of the orchestra that I have experienced ever since - I have the feeling: this is the way an orchestra should sound; the way it should play. I had never heard the beauty, this calmness of the sound, that sort of glissando, the manner of vibrato, the string sound, the blend of woodwinds with the strings, with the brass, the balance of the brass in combination with the percussion contributing together to the overall sonority of the orchestra. For me, this impression was definitive, and now I would like to anticipate a point and tell you this: this sound, 1897, is the same today." [unquote]
> 
> Nevertheless, even the Vienna Philharmonic has become more open to female musicians without compromising its traditional sound.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> There is certainly no indication of quotas being used in orchestras in this BBC report... and music is a profession, not an industry or gov't position. As stated in the report, the hiring has only been on the basis of _artistic merit_, as I believe it should be:
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-35745169/are-women-being-excluded-from-orchestras
> 
> *The Vienna Philharmonic dropped its objections to admitting women in 1996 after the government threatened to cut off funding.*


My goodness, can you not put 1 and 2 together? If the Mount Athos of orchestras suddenly has women you can rest assured that all other orchestras have serious pressures to hire them, and bend much easier to that pressure. That's called a quota, whether they will admit to it or not.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Women also have a slight lead in violins and flutes.


Just before the seventh grade, I voiced a desire to play flute in the band. I was told at the music store that "It's a girl's instrument," and got an electric guitar instead. I'm still bitter, as this almost ruined my life. :lol:


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2019)

1996D said:


> Quotas make consumerism work better by putting money in the pockets of the largest consumers--women--and consumerism is what makes this society run. They are completely money and control driven, or at least that's how they began.


I think we need to hand out the tinfoil hats at this point.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

^ It's pretty funny how no one knows about this, it's well documented and it's old news at this point, but I have no problem with it so I won't discuss it further. Social engineering shouldn't be that taboo it's quite interesting, and it's crucial to understanding politics, but it's understandable why it's left in the dark. 

I will though stress again that orchestras should be like monasteries in their conservatism for the sake of quality. They should be allowed to be completely unaffected by the outside world much like Mount Athos, otherwise the culture slowly deteriorates, and that's not easily brought back.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2019)

1996D said:


> ^ It's pretty funny how *no one knows about this*, it's well documented and it's old news at this point, but I have no problem with it so I won't discuss it further. Social engineering shouldn't be that taboo it's quite interesting, and it's crucial to understanding politics, but it's understandable why it's left in the dark.
> 
> I will though stress again that orchestras should be like monasteries in their conservatism for the sake of quality. They should be allowed to be completely unaffected by the outside world much like Mount Athos, otherwise *the culture *slowly deteriorates, and that's not easily brought back.


That's quite a claim - obviously you do, and it's possible some others here know too...whatever 'this' is. It's a shame that you intend to keep quiet about... whatever it is that is relevant to the debate arising from the OP.

By "like monasteries" and "the culture", do you mean exclusively male?


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

Left completely unaffected by the outside world, completely self governing. What the issue seems to be is the lack of funds of most orchestras, which leads to a dependence on the state.


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