# What do you hate most about your favorite singer?



## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

We all have a favorite singer. But even they have faults. Di Stefano has many. I just hate how he ruined his voice by singing too heavy roles. But then again I really love him in those roles too. Then there is the attitude. Once he was supposed to sing at the Met, but informed that he was sick and couldn't perform. Bing later found out that Pippo had actually sung in an Italian opera house. Not the most professional conduct, but I love how he must have made Bing furious. At the end I just have to love him, no matter what he did


----------



## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

I hate that Natalie Dessay retired from the opera stage. She is a great musician and a consummate actress.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The only thing I hate about Callas is the way her detractors get so vitriolic, much more so than anyone does for any other singer.

She had her faults, but I don't hate them. It was all part of the Callas story. A great voice and technique which was always at the service of the music and the drama. She lost weight to improve the dramatic possibilities of her roles and it probably cost her her voice. But then she wouldn't have had those few glorious years when voice and art found their greatest equilbrium. I don't even hate the later years, when flashes of musical genius would shine through the evident vocal problems. 

But isn't that the same for anyone's favourite singer? We tend to love them unconditionally, warts and all, whoever they are.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I don't hate anything about singers. Why should I? But ne thing I'm sad about is that Bjoerling succumbed to alcolhol. Sad at what might have been....


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Yes, when you have favorite singers, their flaws and annoying habits become just details which you tend to regard with affection... Giorgio Zancanaro had a terrible habit of raising his left hand whenever he sang. It really seems that it was an automatic, behavioral tic. However, part of the fun of watching him in La Traviata (the one with Gruberova and Shicoff), aside from the wonderful singing, is the epic fight he puts up against the habit, especially during Act II. The director on that production must have given him a good talking to, because he is clearly struggling to contain it, and what a battle it is. The hand keeps unconsciously creeping up every 2-3 seconds and he keeps forcing himself not to. I'm pretty sure he gets through all of Act II successfully though.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't think I even have one favorite singer, but of the handful I love the most there isn't anything I strongly dislike about them, artistically or personally. That's probably why they're my favorites! But if I wanted to be semi-humorous, I could hate some of them for being dead and gone before the age of the long-playing record.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Vicky,
and that she's gone.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Ok I remember one thing that I hate about Callas. That she never sang Cassandre or Didon!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Ok I remember one thing that I hate about Callas. That she never sang Cassandre or Didon!


Well then, can I hate her for not insisting on having all her roles filmed? She owed me that.


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Whats the deal with that white hanky Pavarotti always used at recitals......is this to emulate some famous past singer or is there a real purpose for this, good luck charm? just to be annoying?


----------



## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> The only thing I hate about Callas is the way her detractors get so vitriolic, much more so than anyone does for any other singer.


I don't know, Greg.

Based on some recent threads, she may have finally found a true rival in this respect in Anna Netrebko.


----------



## Cesare Impalatore (Apr 16, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Whats the deal with that white hanky Pavarotti always used at recitals......is this to emulate some famous past singer or is there a real purpose for this, good luck charm? just to be annoying?


Someone told me he actually had to use it to clean of the sweat during concerts. I always thought it was just a tenor stereotype gimmick suited for marketing.


----------



## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

Cesare Impalatore said:


> Someone told me he actually had to use it to clean of the sweat during concerts. I always thought it was just a tenor stereotype gimmick suited for marketing.


I heard he had a green apple scent or something and would smell it to clear his throat. This is probably false, though.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Gheorghiu's holier than thou diva attitude. How much more loved she'd be if only she'd get off that high horse and tried being a little humble.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Well... I'd be hard-pressed to name a favorite singer... but if forced, I'd probably go with Callas. If I "hate" anything about her, it would be that she was born too much before my time... and before digital audio and video technology.


----------



## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Whats the deal with that white hanky Pavarotti always used at recitals......is this to emulate some famous past singer or is there a real purpose for this, good luck charm? just to be annoying?


At first he didn't know what to do with his hands, so someone gave him the hanky. Then it just became his trademark.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Diminuendo said:


> At first he didn't know what to do with his hands, so someone gave him the hanky. Then it just became his trademark.


Wherever the damned thing came from, it was a horrible idea. I just couldn't bear to watch, so I didn't.


----------



## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Whats the deal with that white hanky Pavarotti always used at recitals......is this to emulate some famous past singer or is there a real purpose for this, good luck charm? just to be annoying?


As well as it's practical use it is a theatrical thing to wave around. I like it as a recognisable prop, but he wasn't the first..


----------



## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

I cant really hate Callas. I just get sad when I think of all the missed opportunities. Mostly I just hate the people that treated her badly.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Balthazar said:


> I don't know, Greg.
> 
> Based on some recent threads, she may have finally found a true rival in this respect in Anna Netrebko.


I've purposely stayed away from the Netrebko thread, because she's not a favourite of mine and I assume it's main purpose is for fans to say what they like about her. It always seems mean spirited to me to launch in with negatives.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> Whats the deal with that white hanky Pavarotti always used at recitals......is this to emulate some famous past singer or is there a real purpose for this, good luck charm? just to be annoying?


Pav was one of the greatest Italian tenors of the last century. Towards the end of his career he found he could make more money by singing and waving his handkerchief than going through the effort of acting on stage. Who can blame him?


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

nina foresti said:


> Gheorghiu's holier than thou diva attitude. How much more loved she'd be if only she'd get off that high horse and tried being a little humble.


I know she has this reputation but I have to speak as I find.

I've met Angela a few times at the Stage Door and each time she's been absolutely charming. She engages with her fans and is happy to chat, unlike some other singers. I'm not saying being nice to fans means you're a nice person but on the occasions I've met her, she's been delightful. I have a friend who is a great fan and I act as photographer-in-chief!

In La Rondine when Magda supposedly writes 'Pauletta' on the tablecloth, Angela actually writes 'Angela' and says 'Angela' under her breath. We thought we'd heard her say it but weren't sure. Afterwards I asked if she'd actually written and said 'Angela' and she laughed and said "of course" And demonstrated!



(below) Listening to my friend saying how much she enjoyed the performance.



After La bohème last year, there were so many fans wanting autographs and photos we were only allowed in a few at a time and had to wait in the street.

My friend had learned a few words in Romanian and when our turn came, she was able to tell Angela, in her own language, how much she'd enjoyed the performance.

(below) Listening to my friend's halting Romanian (taken through glass).



After the signing session, and not wanting to go back to the hotel, we hung around outside the Stage Door. When Vittorio left we asked if we could have a photo with him and he dragged us back into the lobby and obliged.



The only artist yet to leave was Angela and the ROH staff let us stay in the lobby. When Angela came through the security door I asked if I could take a photo with my friend and she said "of course". I didn't use flash thinking it would be too harsh and she remonstrated with me! She told me I must use flash, then winked and said "I know this building!"

And this is the result.


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

sospiro said:


> The only artist yet to leave was Angela and the ROH staff let us stay in the lobby. When Angela came through the security door I asked if I could take a photo with my friend and she said "of course". I didn't use flash thinking it would be too harsh and she remonstrated with me! She told me I must use flash, then winked and said "I know this building!"
> 
> And this is the result.


Love those side stories of opera fans backstage adventures, that last picture of our darling draculette with the lifted leg diva pose is priceless, I am a fan of hers just wish she had more opera videos to release 

Notice the matching accessories necklace -> purse -> shoes.......a fashionista


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> Love those side stories of opera fans backstage adventures, that last picture of our darling draculette with the lifted leg diva pose is priceless, I am a fan of hers just wish she had more opera videos to release
> 
> *Notice the matching accessories necklace -> purse -> shoes.......a fashionista*


Of course! 

It's usually about 1½ hours after curtain down before she appears for signing sessions, but she has to change and get hair/make-up done. She likes to look good for her fans and always looks like a million dollars.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

graziesignore said:


> Yes, when you have favorite singers, their flaws and annoying habits become just details which you tend to regard with affection... Giorgio Zancanaro had a terrible habit of raising his left hand whenever he sang. It really seems that it was an automatic, behavioral tic. However, part of the fun of watching him in La Traviata (the one with Gruberova and Shicoff), aside from the wonderful singing, is the epic fight he puts up against the habit, especially during Act II. The director on that production must have given him a good talking to, because he is clearly struggling to contain it, and what a battle it is. The hand keeps unconsciously creeping up every 2-3 seconds and he keeps forcing himself not to. I'm pretty sure he gets through all of Act II successfully though.


Though I'm not familiar enough with Zancanaro to have noticed that habit of his, I certainly do agree with the first sentence of your post. With my favorite singers I can think of numerous little faults or mannerisms that I personally don't mind but that tend to really annoy people who don't like those singers anyway.

As far as my favorite singers are concerned (and I have far too many of them, in different vocal categories, to pick a single "favorite singer"!), the only habits I can think of that actually bother me from time to time are these: Joan Sutherland's vague diction, Renee Fleming's habit of allowing jazz inflections to creep into her singing of opera, and Dmitiri Hvorostovsky's (bless him) noisy breathing.


----------



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I can't say that I *hate* anything related with my favorite singers.

Think I *dislike*, there are a few. Just to give you an example, the way Rosa Ponselle usually pronounced the letter 'r' singing in Italian, _raddoppiate_, it's a little bit tiring to me. But, of course, this is just a minor inconvenience compared with the great qualities in her singing.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Mariella Devia. I really don't know anything to hate about her personally, but what I hate most is that there are not more commercial releases of operas featuring her.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> Gheorghiu's holier than thou diva attitude. How much more loved she'd be if only she'd get off that high horse and tried being a little humble.


Of course, she's the only diva who had that fault? :lol:


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

What I hate most about my favourite singer is that he doesn't come here to perform and be seen by me live. 

And that he doesn't conduct his career according to what I think would be best for him to do.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Dame Joan Sutherland
- weak, "acidic" lower register, often fizzling out and making her sound like an old lady
- similarly, undersinging of the lower register
- a vocal wobble starting in the 70s which eventually grew to swallow up the entire bottom half of the voice
- singing roles far longer than appropriate. she should have transitioned to roles like Turandot, Electra, Elsa, or Odabella. singing Gilda, Violetta, Marie and (Puritani) Elvira simply didn't work as the voice darkened and became increasingly wabi/sabi
- imprudent key changes. ex: bel raggio lusinghier already has a tessitura suitable for a high mezzo. rather than transposing it down, she should opted for the C# ending
- singing assoluta roles like Norma and Anna Bolena which requires 3X the lower register she possessed



GregMitchell said:


> The only thing I hate about Callas is the way her detractors get so vitriolic, much more so than anyone does for any other singer.
> 
> She had her faults, but I don't hate them. It was all part of the Callas story. A great voice and technique which was always at the service of the music and the drama. She lost weight to improve the dramatic possibilities of her roles and it probably cost her her voice. But then she wouldn't have had those few glorious years when voice and art found their greatest equilbrium. I don't even hate the later years, when flashes of musical genius would shine through the evident vocal problems.
> 
> But isn't that the same for anyone's favourite singer? We tend to love them unconditionally, warts and all, whoever they are.


there are singers out there with far more vitriolic haters than Callas. her appeal is largely universal sans a few dissenters. as for my opinion, one of the reasons I prefer Sutherland to Callas is because the latter made some extremely foolish life decisions which shortened her prime, her career and, ultimately, her life. probably the biggest offense was singing Turandot in her _early 20s_. Maria Callas was unmatched in terms of artistry and dramatic zeal (and don't even get me started and the low notes and portamento....), but she was extremely impulsive with choice of repertoire and this sliced a large piece off of what could have been an even more glorious legacy. there is a reason why Callas retired at 51 and Sutherland at 64


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Who ... Barbara Hannigan & Elina Garanca
Why ... their hair


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Becca said:


> Who ... Barbara Hannigan & Elina Garanca
> Why ... their hair
> 
> View attachment 73886
> View attachment 73887


Barb! Elina!

<spondaically> 'GO'. . . 'BIG.' ;D


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Barb! Elina!
> 
> <spondaically> 'GO'. . . 'BIG.' ;D


I always thought bigger was always better.....in hair that is
Does Gaga count as a diva......


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> I always thought bigger was always better.....in hair that is
> Does Gaga count as a diva......


You speak Zsa-Zsa-ese, too?

"_Bhigger is alhvayz bet-ter, Dahling_". . .

Is Gaga a diva (small 'd')?- no.

I love anything that's as camp as Christmas- but trashy won't do.

(That's a great wig in the picture with RuPaul though.)


----------



## Rackon (Apr 9, 2013)

I hate Jonas Kaufmann's beard. ;-)


----------



## Sir Redcrosse (Aug 30, 2015)

I hate that Teresa Stratas left opera, or perhaps singing altogether :'( 
I heard she had started cancelling performances just before curtain, and had developed some serious anxiety problems, so it may be for the best, but still.


----------



## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I don't hate anything about singers. Why should I? But ne thing I'm sad about is that Bjoerling succumbed to alcolhol. Sad at what might have been....


Hear, hear...Jussi Björling died way too young...and I am still reeling from the music worlds loss of him


----------



## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

Balthazar said:


> I don't know, Greg.
> 
> Based on some recent threads, she may have finally found a true rival in this respect in Anna Netrebko.


Dear Gentlepeople,

Wassup with comparing Callas with Netrebko,eh? Each of them bequeath their artistry to the world and make the world a little more liveable. Lets be fair, ok?


----------



## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Ilarion said:


> Dear Gentlepeople,
> 
> Wassup with comparing Callas with Netrebko,eh? Each of them bequeath their artistry to the world and make the world a little more liveable. Lets be fair, ok?


If one reads that exchange, it is clear that no one was comparing Callas and Netrebko. Rather, it was a light-hearted observation on the enthusiasm of their respective detractors based on then-current threads on this site.

But thanks for your concern?


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Who: Ferrier

That she is no longer in her prime, or singing, or alive.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

What I hate most about my favorite singers, such as Maria Callas, is that she did not drink the elixir of youth and stay in her prime forever to continue giving us her amazing singing, and perhaps worse yet, that she does not have a recording of Fidelio.


----------



## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

I hate that Maria Callas let Onassis steal her from her music and ruin her life.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Tuoksu said:


> I hate that Maria Callas let Onassis steal her from her music and ruin her life.


Stole her from her husband too.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Stole her from her husband too.


All for the money and status .


----------



## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Pugg said:


> All for the money and status .


She married Titta for money and fame. She fell in love with Onassis. I don't know what she saw in him or why people called him "very sexy".


----------



## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

What I hate most about my favorite singers (Callas above all, Scotto, etc.) is that they ruined some operas for me. I cannot enjoy them by other singers... And, I love them for that.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Cesare Impalatore said:


> Someone told me he actually had to use it to clean of the sweat during concerts. I always thought it was just a tenor stereotype gimmick suited for marketing.


Both. He used it on stage for sweat for sure. And he would NEVER miss an opportunity to add something for people to talk about. Love that Luciano!


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

One thing is clear reading this thread....nobody really wants to publish a genuine fault of their favorites. " NOT my boy, uh-uh!" The faults are all of the "stopped too soon"...."didn't sing this role" variety. And even as I began thinking that I was actually going to do that, the slightest reflection shows me I'm going to follow the same path. I adore Carlo Bergonzi's voice and singing. But at times, in the early days of me listening (the seventies .... This is going to be my escape hatch!) I didn't always think the sound flipped all the way up on top, like Pavarotti's did. Not flat - I'm not talking about when he started to lose his high notes, I'm talking about his upper middle in his prime - just, sometimes, without that final flip. But I first started hearing him live in the 70's and never had that sensation. And Harold Schonberg even refers to his "immaculate intonation" - how often do you hear that in an Italian opera review? But I definitely noticed a change from LP to CD and I think the rounder sound of LP in some ways didn't enhance his, already quite well-rounded sound. The ping of CD, to my ear did. Yay for CD!!! So there! I attempted candor and ended up proving I'm as blindly loyal as the rest!!! NOT my boy, uh-uh!


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

What I hate about Joan Sutherland is that loving her is so difficult as it is very isolating in this forum, which is my only real connection with others who love opera by and large. This group is very picky about her mushy diction, the words of which I don't understand at all and for many there is ONLY Callas in her repertoire. But I will put up with it because listening to Sutherland brings me such pleasure..and many other millions around the world.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> What I hate about Joan Sutherland is that loving her is so difficult as it is very isolating in this forum, which is my only real connection with others who love opera by and large. This group is very picky about her mushy diction, the words of which I don't understand at all and for many there is ONLY Callas in her repertoire. But I will put up with it because listening to Sutherland brings me such pleasure..and many other millions around the world.


Yeah...I don't think a fan of La Stupenda should feel too lonely, Mushy diction or not!


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> What I hate about Joan Sutherland is that loving her is so difficult as it is very isolating in this forum, which is my only real connection with others who love opera by and large. This group is very picky about her mushy diction, the words of which I don't understand at all and for many there is ONLY Callas in her repertoire. But I will put up with it because listening to Sutherland brings me such pleasure..and many other millions around the world.


Seattle, you've got Rogerx for sure and I bet a lot of lurkers are Sutherlandites - who just read the posts and don't comment.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> What I hate about Joan Sutherland is that loving her is so difficult as it is very isolating in this forum, which is my only real connection with others who love opera by and large. This group is very picky about her mushy diction, the words of which I don't understand at all and for many there is ONLY Callas in her repertoire. But I will put up with it because listening to Sutherland brings me such pleasure..and many other millions around the world.


I feel very much between a rock and a hard place as I really like Sutherland, but understand the reservations others have to a lot of her singing. Just because I have a preference for Callas or Montsy in her roles doesn't mean that I don't enjoy her singing as well. The early live Lucia, I Puritani and Sonnambula are only second to Callas and I'm a huge Pavarotti fan so that makes a lot of her recordings a pleasurable listen for me. Her only true duds where the very late recordings (Anna Bolena, Ernani and Adriana Lecouvreur) and there is something to enjoy in almost all the others.

N.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I feel very much between a rock and a hard place as I really like Sutherland, but understand the reservations others have to a lot of her singing. Just because I have a preference for Callas or Montsy in her roles doesn't mean that I don't enjoy her singing as well. The early live Lucia, I Puritani and Sonnambula are only second to Callas and I'm a huge Pavarotti fan so that makes a lot of her recordings a pleasurable listen for me. Her only true duds where the very late recordings (Anna Bolena, Ernani and Adriana Lecouvreur) and there is something to enjoy in almost all the others.
> 
> N.


Joan and I bless you on New Years Day.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Joan and I bless you on New Years Day.


And I send you air kisses all the way across to Seattle!

N.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Whilst it's tough picking one favourite, I am going to go with Callas. I agree with those who would have liked her to have a longer career.

In terms of real faults, it would have to be the way the registers weren't totally unified at the top of her range. This is what lead to the wobble and the thin high notes at the end of her career and in her few endeavours in the recording studio and her comeback tour afterwards.

N.


----------



## Dmitriyevich (Dec 3, 2021)

I hate it when they (e.g. Gheorghiu and Carreras) sang the wrong repertoire.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Eula Beal...absolutely nothing.


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Seattleoperafan said:


> What I hate about Joan Sutherland is that loving her is so difficult as it is very isolating in this forum, which is my only real connection with others who love opera by and large. This group is very picky about her mushy diction, the words of which I don't understand at all and for many there is ONLY Callas in her repertoire. But I will put up with it because listening to Sutherland brings me such pleasure..and many other millions around the world.


You are not alone Seattleoperafan, I have every note she ever sung. Wonderful books, even VCR tapes watching them occasionally.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Rogerx said:


> You are not alone Seattleoperafan, I have every note she ever sung. Wonderful books, even VCR tapes watching them occasionally.


Your fabulous avatar photo gives you away!!!! She never looked lovelier but I hope she didn't have to sleep in curlers to get that look. Happy New Year. I suspect that worldwide Callas would be the most popular soprano in 2022, but Sutherland could be the second most popular, though Netrebko has a big following as she is so pretty. The worldwide fanbase for Joan would be different from her popularity on our forum. We have a high proportion of members who place a high degree of importance to the language skills of singers ( although when I hear sopranos sing in English I am often lost) but I suspect worldwide most opera lovers are like me and don't understand the language arias are sung in. I think that would be the case in Seattle opera audiences. This could effect people's enjoyment of Joan's singing I think. Richard wanted her to concentrate more on optimizing the beauty of the sound over intelligibility. That would be my priority.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Your fabulous avatar photo gives you away!!!! She never looked lovelier but I hope she didn't have to sleep in curlers to get that look. Happy New Year. I suspect that worldwide Callas would be the most popular soprano in 2022, but Sutherland could be the second most popular, though Netrebko has a big following as she is so pretty. The worldwide fanbase for Joan would be different from her popularity on our forum. *We have a high proportion of members who place a high degree of importance to the language skills of singers ( although when I hear sopranos sing in English I am often lost) but I suspect worldwide most opera lovers are like me and don't understand the language arias are sung in.* I think that would be the case in Seattle opera audiences. This could effect people's enjoyment of Joan's singing I think. Richard wanted her to concentrate more on optimizing the beauty of the sound over intelligibility. That would be my priority.


I would respectfully suggest that the purpose of projecting clearly the sounds of language is not only, and maybe not even primarily, the conveyance of the words' lexical meaning, and that much of the expressive power of good verbal enunciation doesn't depend on our knowing the language being sung.

When a composer sets words, he incorporates the sounds of those words into his music. They convey an aesthetic effect which is partly intrinsic to them - this is obvious when they are heard or read as poetry or prose - and partly derived from their interrelationship with the melodic shapes and harmonic changes which accompany and, to the degree that the composer is attentive to these things, illuminate them. A composer, alert to the qualities of sounds and meanings in his texts, sets certain words, and even single syllables with their specific sounds of vowels and consonants, to certain vocal lines possessing certain shapes and rhythms, and against certain harmonies, so as to reinforce the value of both words and music and to create a specific sonorous and expressive effect.

Different types and works of music differ in how intimately words and music are wedded. The more they form an aesthetic unity, the greater the loss when the words are either translated into another language or rendered so blandly or indistinctly by the performer as to make no effect. To hear an artist such as Lotte Lehmann or Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau project the sounds of the German language, not merely clearly, but with a keen sense of the rich expressive possibilities inherent in its sounds, and a profound grasp of the relationship between verbal sound and meaning and musical gesture, is to understand that language is a crucial element of vocal music, and that an audible love of it is essential to the singer's art. A singer who chooses to make sounds at the expense of verbal projection is but half an artist.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Your fabulous avatar photo gives you away!!!! She never looked lovelier but I hope she didn't have to sleep in curlers to get that look. Happy New Year. I suspect that worldwide Callas would be the most popular soprano in 2022, but Sutherland could be the second most popular, though Netrebko has a big following as she is so pretty. The worldwide fanbase for Joan would be different from her popularity on our forum. We have a high proportion of members who place a high degree of importance to the language skills of singers ( although when I hear sopranos sing in English I am often lost) but I suspect worldwide most opera lovers are like me and don't understand the language arias are sung in. I think that would be the case in Seattle opera audiences. This could effect people's enjoyment of Joan's singing I think. Richard wanted her to concentrate more on optimizing the beauty of the sound over intelligibility. That would be my priority.


Sutherland isn't as popular in Italy as she is elsewhere, (my impression is that Caballe is more popular there). There is still a focus on Italian singers at the expense of singers from abroad there. Callas is very much an exception in this regard, but I think that the second most popular soprano in Italy would be Tebaldi. (De los Angeles and Schwarzkopf are nowhere near as popular there as they are outside of Italy.)

N.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Sutherland isn't as popular in Italy as she is elsewhere, (my impression is that Caballe is more popular there). There is still a focus on Italian singers at the expense of singers from abroad there. Callas is very much an exception in this regard, but I think that the second most popular soprano in Italy would be Tebaldi. (De los Angeles and Schwarzkopf are nowhere near as popular there as they are outside of Italy.)
> 
> N.


Likely so, but it was Venice that hailed Sutherland as La Stupenda singing Handel in Italian. I think this was her first excursion outside Covent Garden. It was early when her diction was better.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Likely so, but it was Venice that hailed Sutherland as La Stupenda singing Handel in Italian. I think this was her first excursion outside Covent Garden. It was early when her diction was better.


True! She was also successful at La Scala in Semiramide and Les Huguenots, which is worth bearing in mind as well.

N.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> True! She was also successful at La Scala in Semiramide and Les Huguenots, which is worth bearing in mind as well.
> 
> N.


I remembered she did well there but not the details. Thanks. Both of those roles were never sung by Callas.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I haven't read through this entire thread so if this repeats anyone else.....I'm ok with that!

I think its worth knowing WHY we love the artists we love...we discover more about ourselves.

People don't like Joan Sutherland's diction and with good reason. I don't always find her deeply involved dramatically and I'm not alone.

But I believe that it was our recently discussed Conrad Osborne who, when she first appeared, said something to the effect of, she sings everything faster, louder and higher than anyone! And with a voice that most people recognize very quickly! That's an awesome thing!! NOBODY has everything. But your girl blows people away, and that's one of the biggest reasons why people come to the opera house...to be amazed!!!

Your girl is doing just fine.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

ScottK said:


> I haven't read through this entire thread so if this repeats anyone else.....I'm ok with that!
> 
> I think its worth knowing WHY we love the artists we love...we discover more about ourselves.
> 
> ...


My thoughts on Sutherland are exactly the same as yours. In addition I am never less than amazed at the marriage of power, flexibility and crystalline colour in her voice.

N.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I remembered she did well there but not the details. Thanks. Both of those roles were never sung by Callas.


This made me wonder what her roles at La Scala were and her debut there was as Lucia in 1960. (A role that Callas _had_ sung there.) Sutherland then sung Beatrice di Tenda and La Sonnambula there, then came the Semiramide and Les Huguenots. (I believe that some of these were meant for Callas, but she turned them down, possibly due to her vocal issues at that time.)

N.

Here's a link to the La Scala performance archive of Sutherland performances:

https://teatroallascala.org/archivi...f325563800d&objecttype=base&pagesize=9&page=1


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

The Conte said:


> My thoughts on Sutherland are exactly the same as yours. In addition I am never less than amazed at the marriage of power, flexibility and crystalline colour in her voice.
> 
> N.


I'm with your addition completely....... AND beautiful....crystalline colour, nice!!!


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

This seems to be a pretty reliable account of Sutherland's La Scala debut, at which she received 30 curtain calls after the first night!

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/51776652/5527234

N.


----------



## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Gino Bechi - Especially in his 50s recordings, the voice can take on an unattractive, hard quality. During the 50s he also lost his exemplary legato, which had been one of the hallmarks of his 40s singing. It wasn't a total decline, however. His 50s and 60s recordings have many great moments.

Mark Reizen - Nasal on certain vowels, especially in soft singing. Less irritating when he's singing Russian. Otherwise, he's basically perfect.

Beniamino Gigli - Perfect voice, why add stupid sobs?

Alfred Piccaver - Sometimes out of sync with the orchestra in his recordings, sometimes phrasing is a bit careless. At other times, he's miraculous.

Renata Tebaldi - Sometimes shrill top, bad fioritura, voice tends to sound harsh on Decca recordings (probably not her fault as it affected almost everyone else too, but since her voice was so bright/clear, she sounds especially harsh), only intermittently dramatically engaged


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I haven't read through this entire thread so if this repeats anyone else.....I'm ok with that!
> 
> I think its worth knowing WHY we love the artists we love...we discover more about ourselves.
> 
> ...


I am so glad I voiced my feelings about Sutherland as it is so nice for a change to hear praise for her from you and The Conte! It started my new year off to a good start. Mas had told me he was sure there would be Sutherland fans besides me on this forum who had maybe not made a post about it before. She would always get hidden voters in polls who didn't comment. Aside from her voice I really like her stage presence as she is so confident and grand even though you know she is a very down to earth Aussie farm girl at heart. To me she was grander onstage than Callas but Callas was more glamorous and really threw herself into her roles.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Gino Bechi - Especially in his 50s recordings, the voice can take on an unattractive, hard quality. During the 50s he also lost his exemplary legato, which had been one of the hallmarks of his 40s singing. It wasn't a total decline, however. His 50s and 60s recordings have many great moments.
> 
> Mark Reizen - Nasal on certain vowels, especially in soft singing. Less irritating when he's singing Russian. Otherwise, he's basically perfect.
> 
> ...


I know Tebaldi from late 50's and 60's Decca. Thought I was the only one who did not find THAT sound consistently beautiful. I'm sure earlier must be better.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I know Tebaldi from late 50's and 60's Decca. Thought I was the only one who did not find THAT sound consistently beautiful. I'm sure earlier must be better.


Another one who many love but doesn't have a lot of fans here. She was her best in the early 50's but I loved her Gioconda later on. She had the most stunning legato of anyone .I thought she could often sing with great beauty. She never did well in contests here, but I love her in some things. Anything with a high C was best avoided. The steely edge to her voice likely did her a lot of favors in an opera house. Unlike Callas she never ever had a wobble in her voice, even in her later years. She was always so grand onstage.


----------



## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

ScottK said:


> I know Tebaldi from late 50's and 60's Decca. Thought I was the only one who did not find THAT sound consistently beautiful. I'm sure earlier must be better.


Much.







Seattleoperafan said:


> The steely edge to her voice likely did her a lot of favors in an opera house.


I've read many anecdotes from people who claim to have heard her live who said that her voice had warmth onstage that didn't translate into the studio as well.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She not only had an unusually big and beautiful chest voice for a soprano but allegedly could hail a cab with a deep manly bark that could be heard down the block.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> She not only had an unusually big and beautiful chest voice for a soprano but allegedly could hail a cab with a deep manly bark that could be heard down the block.


You all sound like - and trust me my compliments don't come much higher - my Dad!!! I wanted to find the Tebaldi sound all the things he said, just couldn't. Eager to listen to this when I have a relaxed moment!


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well Schicchi, THAT is a horse of a different color!!! Thank you much for sending that along.

The Otello pieces, out and out lyric, are just gorgeous! Later in her career, I always liked the way she sang very much. In Boheme I love the way she sings. But the sound is no longer this. Don't need to list the reasons, it just ain't this.

The other pieces, with a little more drama to them, bring up a lot of different responses. First and foremost still, what a beautiful voice. But the points that you and Seattleoperafan make come up immediately because of that point, that focus with an edge that the voice takes on pretty much every time it ascends in the first pieces. Like SOF says, it probably, did go over well in the house. And I can imagine that the effect it makes on record is better in the house...the voice probably took off in an exciting way- like young Bjoerling - but without that slight movement toward sour that it gets on the recordings . For the most part the sour is really slight, but just occasionally noticeable. At one point in the L'altra notte it did get pretty sour. But this is close to finding fault with paradise. The recording is great! Thanks so much!


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> She not only had an unusually big and beautiful chest voice for a soprano but allegedly could hail a cab with a deep manly bark that could be heard down the block.


I got here too late for your Suicidio contest but I wanted to do it anyway. Trying to follow you guys lead on the soprano thing. Always been a male voice guy - I assume it's the wannabe factor - and when I pay more attention to sopranos its usually in Mozart and Strauss...although I always went nuts over Caballe's pianissimi! But y'all get infectious with your enthusiasm for the diva's!

The Tebaldi YouTube was turned off so, when I went to look, I only had about TEN Tebaldi Suicidio's to chose from ( I'm sure some were duplicates) I assume the one I got was from the complete opera. For what it's worth I did think it was a no-contest. I know Obraztsova was very big back when but here, she sounded like she was giving you the standard take on dramatic soprano form. Tebaldi was singing the piece , invested in in line by line and she still had a lot of color in her voice, alternating lyricism and declamation. And MAN you can find these singers giving concerts with the music in front of them! I don't remember ever seeing that before these videos.

Love these contests!


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I got here too late for your Suicidio contest but I wanted to do it anyway. Trying to follow you guys lead on the soprano thing. Always been a male voice guy - I assume it's the wannabe factor - and when I pay more attention to sopranos its usually in Mozart and Strauss...although I always went nuts over Caballe's pianissimi! But y'all get infectious with your enthusiasm for the diva's!
> 
> The Tebaldi YouTube was turned off so, when I went to look, I only had about TEN Tebaldi Suicidio's to chose from ( I'm sure some were duplicates) I assume the one I got was from the complete opera. For what it's worth I did think it was a no-contest. I know Obraztsova was very big back when but here, she sounded like she was giving you the standard take on dramatic soprano form. Tebaldi was singing the piece , invested in in line by line and she still had a lot of color in her voice, alternating lyricism and declamation. And MAN you can find these singers giving concerts with the music in front of them! I don't remember ever seeing that before these videos.
> 
> Love these contests!


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


>


Oh Man that is nice! Feels like a much more ideal blend between the young lyric and mature spinto than any of her recordings I've heard recently. I'm much more taken with the sound than in the recordings with Bergonzi that I know her from. Is it this recording or did she always have that great sound in the lower part of her voice?


----------



## davidscalvini (Jan 1, 2018)

ScottK said:


> Oh Man that is nice! Feels like a much more ideal blend between the young lyric and mature spinto than any of her recordings I've heard recently. I'm much more taken with the sound than in the recordings with Bergonzi that I know her from. Is it this recording or did she always have that great sound in the lower part of her voice?


Tebaldi always had strong low notes. And she made the transition between registers so smoothly.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

ScottK said:


> I got here too late for your Suicidio contest but I wanted to do it anyway. Trying to follow you guys lead on the soprano thing. Always been a male voice guy - I assume it's the wannabe factor - and when I pay more attention to sopranos its usually in Mozart and Strauss...although I always went nuts over Caballe's pianissimi! But y'all get infectious with your enthusiasm for the diva's!
> 
> The Tebaldi YouTube was turned off so, when I went to look, I only had about TEN Tebaldi Suicidio's to chose from ( I'm sure some were duplicates) I assume the one I got was from the complete opera. For what it's worth I did think it was a no-contest. I know Obraztsova was very big back when but here, she sounded like she was giving you the standard take on dramatic soprano form. Tebaldi was singing the piece , invested in in line by line and she still had a lot of color in her voice, alternating lyricism and declamation. And MAN you can find these singers giving concerts with the music in front of them! I don't remember ever seeing that before these videos.
> 
> Love these contests!


When Renata was learning the role, she asked someone at the Met for a recording of *La Gioconda*. Mindful of the rivalry, the man sent her recordings of other singers, save Callas. When next the man (Francis Robinson, I think) saw Tebaldi, he found her listening to the Callas recording. "Why didn't you tell me Maria's was the best?" she inquired.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

MAS said:


> When Renata was learning the role, she asked someone at the Met for a recording of *La Gioconda*. Mindful of the rivalry, the man sent her recordings of other singers, save Callas. When next the man (Francis Robinson, I think) saw Tebaldi, he found her listening to the Callas recording. "Why didn't you tell me Maria's was the best?" she inquired.


I know this story, but my curiosity was piqued. Who were the rival sopranos? Presuming that Tebaldi was only presented with studio recordings the most likely options at that time would have been Cerquetti and Milanov who both recorded the role in 1957. There was an earlier recording with Anita Corridori (a name new to me) made the same year as the first Callas recording. I agree with Renata, Maria is better than the competition. (Although you could argue that the Cerquetti set is superior overall to either of the Callas ones due to an outstanding cast (Del Monaco, Simionato, Bastianini and Siepi)).

N.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

The Conte said:


> I know this story, but my curiosity was piqued. Who were the rival sopranos? Presuming that Tebaldi was only presented with studio recordings the most likely options at that time would have been Cerquetti and Milanov who both recorded the role in 1957. There was an earlier recording with Anita Corridori (a name new to me) made the same year as the first Callas recording. I agree with Renata, Maria is better than the competition. (Although you could argue that the Cerquetti set is superior overall to either of the Callas ones due to an outstanding cast (Del Monaco, Simionato, Bastianini and Siepi)).
> 
> N.


I definitely grew up listening to the wrong Tebaldi recordings! Again she sounds great. One thing that strikes me, and I feel the same about Freni, is that as beautiful and great as the voice is, I personally don't find it as distinctive or recognizable as Caballe, Sutherland or Schwarzkopf. Doesn't sound right coming from the land of song. Is this a very personal response?


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I know this story, but my curiosity was piqued. Who were the rival sopranos? Presuming that Tebaldi was only presented with studio recordings the most likely options at that time would have been Cerquetti and Milanov who both recorded the role in 1957. There was an earlier recording with Anita Corridori (a name new to me) made the same year as the first Callas recording. I agree with Renata, Maria is better than the competition. (Although you could argue that the Cerquetti set is superior overall to either of the Callas ones due to an outstanding cast (Del Monaco, Simionato, Bastianini and Siepi)).
> 
> N.


As I heard it, Tebaldi was advised to listen to the Milanov recording, but Robinson (?) found her listening to the Callas recording and she just said, "Why didn't you tell me Maria's was the best?"


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I definitely grew up listening to the wrong Tebaldi recordings! Again she sounds great. One thing that strikes me, and I feel the same about Freni, is that as beautiful and great as the voice is, I personally don't find it as distinctive or recognizable as Caballe, Sutherland or Schwarzkopf. Doesn't sound right coming from the land of song. Is this a very personal response?


John Steane, in his wonderful book _The Grand Tradition_ calls Tebaldi's a "central" voice. It was a voice of great beauty, but "the interpretations were not imprinted [in the memory]; that some flash of individuality, some sudden illumination of the score, has not appeared to stay as a vivid and enduring part of the listener's mind."

I agree with this. If I take a role like Butterfly, I can hear the voices of De Los Angeles, of Callas and of Scotto in my mind's ear, but not Tebaldi. I feel much the same about Freni, who is an excellent Butterfly on the Karajan recording, but, like Tebaldi's, her performance doesn't remain in my mind's ear.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The Conte said:


> I know this story, but my curiosity was piqued. Who were the rival sopranos? Presuming that Tebaldi was only presented with studio recordings the most likely options at that time would have been Cerquetti and Milanov who both recorded the role in 1957. There was an earlier recording with Anita Corridori (a name new to me) made the same year as the first Callas recording. I agree with Renata, Maria is better than the competition. (Although you could argue that the Cerquetti set is superior overall to either of the Callas ones due to an outstanding cast (Del Monaco, Simionato, Bastianini and Siepi)).
> 
> N.


I suppose he gave her what was available in the Metropolitan library (or shop?) at the time. I doubt he'd care about the rest of the cast, as Tebaldi would mostly be interested in the title role.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> As I heard it, Tebaldi was advised to listen to the Milanov recording, but Robinson (?) found her listening to the Callas recording and she just said, "Why didn't you tell me Maria's was the best?"


Thanks, that makes sense. After all the colleagues on the Cerquetti recording were those that usually were assembled around Tebaldi herself.

N.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

MAS said:


> I suppose he gave her what was available in the Metropolitan library (or shop?) at the time. I doubt he'd care about the rest of the cast, as Tebaldi would mostly be interested in the title role.


I didn't mean to imply that he chose the recording for the rest of the cast or that he specifically chose any of the singers. It may well be that he just chose what was available aside from the Callas recording (presumably EMI) if he did indeed purposefully avoid recordings with Callas. I was more interested in WHO exactly the singer was that Tebaldi was comparing Callas to and just remarked on the superb ensemble around Cerquetti in passing.

N.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The Conte said:


> I didn't mean to imply that he chose the recording for the rest of the cast or that he specifically chose any of the singers. It may well be that he just chose what was available aside from the Callas recording (presumably EMI) if he did indeed purposefully avoid recordings with Callas. I was more interested in WHO exactly the singer was that Tebaldi was comparing Callas to and just remarked on the superb ensemble around Cerquetti in passing.
> 
> N.


Both the Milanov and Cerquetti recordings were readily available at the time, Mme. Milanov being still a star at the Metropolitan, and Cerquetti's star rising as a "new" sensational voice being bandied about. And as Tebaldi's question: "why didn't you tell me Maria's was the best?", implies more than one to compare with, no? Nevertheless, I read an age ago that Tebaldi's assumption of the role was modeled on Callas!


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> John Steane, in his wonderful book _The Grand Tradition_ calls Tebaldi's a "central" voice. It was a voice of great beauty, but "the interpretations were not imprinted [in the memory]; that some flash of individuality, some sudden illumination of the score, has not appeared to stay as a vivid and enduring part of the listener's mind."
> 
> I agree with this. If I take a role like Butterfly, I can hear the voices of De Los Angeles, of Callas and of Scotto in my mind's ear, but not Tebaldi. I feel much the same about Freni, who is an excellent Butterfly on the Karajan recording, but, like Tebaldi's, her performance doesn't remain in my mind's ear.


I understand your take but that is about interpretation. I was wondering if people found the sound of Tebaldi's voice to be memorable...recognizable?


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I understand your take but that is about interpretation. I was wondering if people found the sound of Tebaldi's voice to be memorable...recognizable?


I can spot her immediately and her legato is so fabulous.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I can spot her immediately and her legato is so fabulous.


I agree about the legato. I love John Steane but sometimes he will speak of specific renditions as being unmemorable because of the abscence of insightful phrasing. Now I LOVE phrases that are unique and grab my attention, but if we waited around just for that, we'd be handing out precious few gold stars!

Tebaldi's Mimi has always been something I loved because I think she phrases it with such luscious long legato phrases and always seems to have an inherent feel for the rise and fall of the music and the build to climaxes. I find Caballe's sound more distinctive but I've never felt she had the same feel for Mimi's full bodied lyricism. I find Tebaldi's tone a bit too mature and never really went wild over her sound on that recording. But I always loved the WAY she sang it! I think Steane sometimes gets a little too narrow in his definition of what is or is not superior singing.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I can spot her immediately and her legato is so fabulous.


And that is most definitely a firm answer on the question of whether or not her sound is distinctive!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> I agree about the legato. I love John Steane but sometimes he will speak of specific renditions as being unmemorable because of the abscence of insightful phrasing. Now I LOVE phrases that are unique and grab my attention, but if we waited around just for that, we'd be handing out precious few gold stars!
> 
> Tebaldi's Mimi has always been something I loved because I think she phrases it with such luscious long legato phrases and always seems to have an inherent feel for the rise and fall of the music and the build to climaxes. I find Caballe's sound more distinctive but I've never felt she had the same feel for Mimi's full bodied lyricism. I find Tebaldi's tone a bit too mature and never really went wild over her sound on that recording. But I always loved the WAY she sang it! I think Steane sometimes gets a little too narrow in his definition of what is or is not superior singing.


Have you made the acquaintance of the made-for-TV performance of the _Boheme_ love scene with Tebaldi and Bjorling? The full scene used to be on YouTube, but it disappeared a few years ago and hasn't returned. We do still have the following to show us how splendidly the music can be sung.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I agree about the legato. I love John Steane but sometimes he will speak of specific renditions as being unmemorable because of the abscence of insightful phrasing. Now I LOVE phrases that are unique and grab my attention, but if we waited around just for that, we'd be handing out precious few gold stars!
> 
> Tebaldi's Mimi has always been something I loved because I think she phrases it with such luscious long legato phrases and always seems to have an inherent feel for the rise and fall of the music and the build to climaxes. I find Caballe's sound more distinctive but I've never felt she had the same feel for Mimi's full bodied lyricism. I find Tebaldi's tone a bit too mature and never really went wild over her sound on that recording. But I always loved the WAY she sang it! I think Steane sometimes gets a little too narrow in his definition of what is or is not superior singing.


I'm not sure I agree with you about Steane. Interpretation is important to him (it is to me too), but he is full of praise for good, solid singing and I find his insights the very opposite of narrow. He is lavish in his praise of Tebaldi's actual voice, the homogeneity of her scale and, apart from at the top, the beauty and richness of her sound. He finds her wanting in her articulation of fast moving music and just lacking that last degree of insight, and I would agree.

My feeling is that I would probably recognise her voice in a blind test, but that her singing of a given role rarely stays in the memory. All I remember about her Mimi is that she sounds too mature for the role, however beautifully she sings, but, with De Los Angeles and Callas, I not only recall the sound of their voices in the music, but lots of individual touches that bring the character to life.

We all have different priorities and for many, particularly in Puccini, it is enough that Tebaldi fills those beautiful melodies with glorious, refulgent tone. My preference is for something more specific to the character.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Have you made the acquaintance of the made-for-TV performance of the _Boheme_ love scene with Tebaldi and Bjorling? The full scene used to be on YouTube, but it disappeared a few years ago and hasn't returned. We do still have the following to show us how splendidly the music can be sung.


Just saw this and will not get a chance to listen until a little later but I've seen it...a million years ago...and I'm thrilled to be seeing it again. Have thought of trying to find it just never at the right time...Thanks much!! I actually thought of it recently when I was pondering the Tebaldi Suicidio ..... was thinking of how good her acting was in the Suicidio. As I remember this Boheme (and I'm obviously going to find out soon how accurately) she was quite the face actor on this and Jussi had his own version of cuteness. But MAN the singing!


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tebaldi is never the best but is often nearly the best in different roles. I would have loved to have heard her live. One also has to consider the stage presence of that towering goddess that surely added to the drama. In Traviata her Sempre Libera was so so, but the rest of the role was wonderful and full of pathos and beauty.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> Just saw this and will not get a chance to listen until a little later but I've seen it...a million years ago...and I'm thrilled to be seeing it again. Have thought of trying to find it just never at the right time...Thanks much!! I actually thought of it recently when I was pondering the Tebaldi Suicidio ..... was thinking of how good her acting was in the Suicidio. As I remember this Boheme (and I'm obviously going to find out soon how accurately) she was quite the face actor on this and Jussi had his own version of cuteness. But MAN the singing!


Tebaldi's acting in the _Boheme_ scene is really charming, and her singing is as good as any she - or anyone, I'm tempted to say - ever did. A terribly healthy Mimi, to be sure, but confronted with her luminosity I can't keep my critic's hat on. I have the impression that she and Bjorling didn't sing together often, but I hope they're getting plenty of opportunities to team up in opera heaven while we're serving time in opera purgatory.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not sure I agree with you about Steane. Interpretation is important to him (it is to me too), but he is full of praise for good, solid singing and I find his insights the very opposite of narrow. He is lavish in his praise of Tebaldi's actual voice, the homogeneity of her scale and, apart from at the top, the beauty and richness of her sound. He finds her wanting in her articulation of fast moving music and just lacking that last degree of insight, and I would agree.
> 
> My feeling is that I would probably recognise her voice in a blind test, but that her singing of a given role rarely stays in the memory. All I remember about her Mimi is that she sounds too mature for the role, however beautifully she sings, but, with De Los Angeles and Callas, I not only recall the sound of their voices in the music, but lots of individual touches that bring the character to life.
> 
> We all have different priorities and for many, particularly in Puccini, it is enough that Tebaldi fills those beautiful melodies with glorious, refulgent tone. My preference is for something more specific to the character.


Essentially I'm with the over-all take for sure, BUTTTTT...... Here's your Steane passage from the earlier post:

John Steane, in his wonderful book The Grand Tradition calls Tebaldi's a "central" voice. It was a voice of great beauty, but "the interpretations were not imprinted [in the memory]; that some flash of individuality, some sudden illumination of the score, has not appeared to stay as a vivid and enduring part of the listener's mind."

He's speaking for too many people here, being just a little too absolute. Tebaldi's Mimi, as I and others are saying, is most definitely imprinted in the memory. He's placing all emphasis on character, the interpretation and how its revealed through some flash of individuality. I love all those things. In fact Steane singles out my beloved Carlo Bergonzi for being at his most inspired in those departments, right there on the Boheme he shares with Tebaldi.

In Tebaldi's case I would say that the absence of that sudden illumination is more than compensated for by the fact that her way with the Puccinian phrase is gorgeous, memorable and shows a feeling for this kind of singing that is rarely if ever achieved by others.

(And does this say something about me??....stole some time from work NOT to listen to Tebaldi and Bjoerling, the point of all this, but to take a quick moment and say "No, No,No...*.I'll* tell you how it really works!!!:lol::lol::lol:!!!)


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not sure I agree with you about Steane. Interpretation is important to him (it is to me too), but he is full of praise for good, solid singing and I find his insights the very opposite of narrow. He is lavish in his praise of Tebaldi's actual voice, the homogeneity of her scale and, apart from at the top, the beauty and richness of her sound. He finds her wanting in her articulation of fast moving music and just lacking that last degree of insight, and I would agree.
> 
> My feeling is that I would probably recognise her voice in a blind test, but that her singing of a given role rarely stays in the memory. All I remember about her Mimi is that she sounds too mature for the role, however beautifully she sings, but, with De Los Angeles and Callas, I not only recall the sound of their voices in the music, but lots of individual touches that bring the character to life.
> 
> We all have different priorities and for many, particularly in Puccini, it is enough that Tebaldi fills those beautiful melodies with glorious, refulgent tone. My preference is for something more specific to the character.


And I promise...I am onguard for my own "last-word-itis"!!! ( "if that was true you wouldn't have posted the post before this now, would ya?") If you were to have anything to say, you would not be committing to a line of discussion that eventually brings you to mutterings of "....oh give it up already guy!"


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> And I promise...I am onguard for my own "last-word-itis"!!! ( "if that was true you wouldn't have posted the post before this now, would ya?") If you were to have anything to say, you would not be committing to a line of discussion that eventually brings you to mutterings of "....oh give it up already guy!"


Not to be a buttinski, but...

Last word. ut:


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Not to be a buttinski, but...
> 
> Last word. ut:


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Thanks!


----------



## AlexD (Nov 6, 2011)

According to Ron Howard's documentary, it was to give Pavarotti something to with with his hands at recitals. 

He didn't know how to stand or perform for his first recitals so his manager told him to hold onto something.

It was a hankerschief - and it stuck.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Essentially I'm with the over-all take for sure, BUTTTTT...... Here's your Steane passage from the earlier post:
> 
> John Steane, in his wonderful book The Grand Tradition calls Tebaldi's a "central" voice. It was a voice of great beauty, but "the interpretations were not imprinted [in the memory]; that some flash of individuality, some sudden illumination of the score, has not appeared to stay as a vivid and enduring part of the listener's mind."
> 
> ...


To me it is like she sings her phrases with butter...she delivers phrases so richly and smoothly and in
her own style, to my ear.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Have you made the acquaintance of the made-for-TV performance of the _Boheme_ love scene with Tebaldi and Bjorling? The full scene used to be on YouTube, but it disappeared a few years ago and hasn't returned. We do still have the following to show us how splendidly the music can be sung.


Thanks! It's a treasure...just a treasure!


----------

