# Gramophone on Bruckner



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

For fans, a new article on what Gramophone thinks are the top ten recordings.

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/featur...hone.co.uk/feature/top-10-bruckner-recordings


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I'm not experienced enough on recordings of the later symphonies to comment, but I totally agree on Tintner for the 2nd, a totally underrated Bruckner symphony. Why no mention of 3 and 7? (I can understand #1 being left out.)


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

No Skrowaczewski and Celibidache? I cannot take that list seriously.


----------



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I mostly agree with their 6-9 choices plus Karajan complete. Unimpressed with Haitink BR 5, I know nothing about the B5 in Lucerne.

They could have promoted the newly reissued Giulini No.2 in Vienna in great sound and incredible playing (I prefer Jochum Dresden anyway)


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

That's the same Karajan DG overview I remember from one of their yearbooks from over ten years ago. His 4th, 7th and 8th on EMI weren't mentioned. I remember they liked Gielen's 3rd as well. Skrowaczewski? I think they namechecked his 9th under 'also recommended' but if there ever was a review it wasn't included. Tintner scored heavily in the early symphonies.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

elgars ghost said:


> That's the same Karajan DG overview I remember from one of their yearbooks from over ten years ago.


Gramophone seems to be falling on hard times. Its subject matter, physical media classical recordings, is a rapidly shrinking market. It has changed hands twice in recent years, and I doubt that it has been a big moneymaker for anyone. Four years ago, its circulation was 24 thousand in total, and that included digital subscribers! I have no idea what it is today, but I'd guess even smaller at least so far as paid subscribers are concerned.

Under the circumstances, there must be a constant temptation to recycle old material (for cost savings) and to preferentially review recordings from advertisers and to find them good. I'd guess that Gramophone will go the way of the Schwann catalog, sooner rather than later.


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I just took out my first subscription, fwiw. I think the magazine has improved significantly in the past few years sine J. Jolly ceased to be the Editor.
They also review downloads


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Triplets said:


> I just took out my first subscription, fwiw. I think the magazine has improved significantly in the past few years sine J. Jolly ceased to be the Editor.
> They also review downloads


I hope you're right!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Triplets said:


> I just took out my first subscription, fwiw. I think the magazine has improved significantly in the past few years sine J. Jolly ceased to be the Editor.
> They also review downloads


The problem is the digital subscription seems almost as high as the hard copy. I was a regular subscriber for many years then they appeared to have problems with delivery and I cancelled.

As for Bruckner, I have the Karajan set but also the Jochum / Dresden which is also very fine in a completely different style. These two complement each other well.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

DavidA said:


> The problem is the digital subscription seems almost as high as the hard copy.


Gramophone priced themselves outta the market a long time ago. Plus they won't let you view many old reviews (and I mean old ones) without flashing their 'subscribe now' sign across the screen. I wouldn't mind but their reviews are lacking in depth and badly structured. Classics Today do it all much better (even if Hurwitz can be a knob sometimes - but he's more often than not right).


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The problem is the digital subscription seems almost as high as the hard copy. I was a regular subscriber for many years then they appeared to have problems with delivery and I cancelled.
> 
> As for Bruckner, I have the Karajan set but also the Jochum / Dresden which is also very fine in a completely different style. These two complement each other well.


That Jochum set was widely available here as inexpensive budget reissue and for years was my only Bruckner set. I can't listen to it now without getting vertigo from what now strike me as arbitrary tempo fluctuations. The Karajan is my preferred set.


----------



## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

It looks like a typical "I've sampled several recordings from my local library and rather enjoyed these" list.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Triplets said:


> I just took out my first subscription, fwiw. I think the magazine has improved significantly in the past few years sine J. Jolly ceased to be the Editor.


I recently bought my first _Gramophone_ in a few years and it does seem to have changed. It had been on a trajectory towards becoming merely a stuffy version of _BBC Music Magazine_ but the latest one reminded me more of what it had been 15 or 20 years ago.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

I agree with most of what Gramophone listed, although for the:


Complete set: Wand and the Colonge Orchestra (RCA) is a very strong contender.
Ninth: Carlo Maria Giulini with the Vienna Philharmonic (DG), which then as is now the gold standard.
Sixth: Sawallisch and the Bavarian State Orchestra (Orfeo).
Fifth: Sinopoli and the Dresden State Symphony (DG).
Fourth: Barenboim and the Chicago Symphony (DG).
Third (original): Simone Young and the Hamburg Philharmonic (Oehms).
Third (1889 version): Bohm and the Vienna Philharmonic (Decca).


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

No Furtwangler or Knappertsbusch, and Jochum only for the Masses? I agree with you Ken, this list is more of a sales pitch than a serious set of recommendations.


----------



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

chill782002 said:


> No Furtwangler or Knappertsbusch, and Jochum only for the Masses? I agree with you Ken, this list is more of a sales pitch than a serious set of recommendations.


I think it's more about posting news articles easy to browse on the internet with SEU technologies. I think the individual reviews are much more elaborated but I think ionarts and others offer more complete surveys.

Hey, there are particular threads for *Bruckner symphony recordings.* The more we keep this conversation about Gramophone and their reviews the better.










*For Bruckner addicts only: Bruckner top Recordings per Symphony*

*suggestions for Bruckner Complete Symphony set?*
*Picking your Favorite Bruckner Set(s) (Either Complete or Partial)*


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Much as I like them in some things (Karajan especially), I never really enjoyed Karajan's or Wand's Bruckner. The Gramophone has long held them up as "the best".


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> Much as I like them in some things (Karajan especially), I never really enjoyed Karajan's or Wand's Bruckner. The Gramophone has long held them up as "the best".


I've never really been convinced by Karajan's Bruckner but I know a lot of people who disagree. I prefer Wand to Karajan where Bruckner is concerned but Furtwangler, Knappertsbusch and Jochum are my first choice. All personal taste at the end of the day.


----------



## THUaudiophile (May 26, 2018)

Most of those "Top" recordings as they say, I have compared in detail specific about recording quality, and they are far from what I consider a top recording. Honestly there nothing that can compete against the (incomplete) series from Denon with Skrowaczewksi. Details here http://www.ecliptic.ch/audiophile/anton-bruckner-symphonies.php


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

THUaudiophile said:


> Most of those "Top" recordings as they say, I have compared in detail specific about recording quality, and they are far from what I consider a top recording. Honestly there nothing that can compete against the (incomplete) series from Denon with Skrowaczewksi. Details here http://www.ecliptic.ch/audiophile/anton-bruckner-symphonies.php


How do these Denons compared to Skrowaczewski's recordings with the Saarbrucken RSO, issued by Oehms?


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

The Adagio of the 1873 (original) version of Symphony is significantly different and longer than the subsequent two versions (the Adagio was majorly cut in the 1877 version). If your favorite Symphony #3 is not the 1873 version, you're almost listening to a different Adagio.  The Tintner 1873 is exceptional and is mentioned here:

Bruckner, The Great Early Adagios (Symphonies 2 and 3)


----------



## rw181383 (Aug 4, 2017)

Wow!! To each their own, but this Gramophone list is not even close to my top Bruckner recordings. I must have some very weird Brucknerian taste:lol:

Complete - Skrowaczewski
00 - Tintner
0 - Schaller, Barenboim (DG)
1 - Neumann, Jochum (DG), Suitner (Berlin Classics)
2 - Giulini, Young
3 - Kubelik (Audite)
4 - Karajan (EMI), Celibidache (EMI)
5 - Horenstein (BBC), Welser-Möst (EMI), Celibidache (EMI), Karajan (DG), Barenboim (Teldec-BPO), Furtwängler (M&A-1942)
6 - Solti, Asahina (JVC), Celibidache, Bongartz 
7 - Böhm (Audite), Giulini, Sanderling
8 - Suitner (Berlin Classics), Giulini (BBC), Asahina (Canyon Classics-1994), Celibidache (EMI), Maazel (EMI)
9 - Giulini (DG), Kubelik (Orfeo), von Hausegger (Preiser)


----------



## Kollwitz (Jun 10, 2018)

As Granate's surveys showed, it's hard enough to pick a top 10 for individual symphonies, let alone the entire oeuvre. The list is still not as satisfying as it ought to be. The 5th might be my favourite symphony of all, but sticking two recordings on the list with no 7th seems a bit obtuse, given how great and accessible 7 is. I think I'll check out the Abbado/Lucerne DVD though, as a live Abbado/Lucerne performance of the symphony got a rave review in the Guardian - https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/oct/16/claudio-abbado-cern.


----------



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Kollwitz said:


> As Granate's surveys showed, it's hard enough to pick a top 10 for individual symphonies, let alone the entire oeuvre. The list is still not as satisfying as it ought to be.


Thank you Kollwitz (you must have been surfing around TC Orchestral to find my buried threads ). For several reasons, including some concessions to Becca and realdealblues, I've been preparing a new Bruckner survey since December. Looking back, I'm not very happy with the methods, results and considerations I made in my Bruckner challenge in 2016 and early 2017.

Therefore, I've been making a new survey, less exhaustive in reviewing material but more thoughtful about sound, music and versions used. I'm still entitled to my own opinion and will disagree with mentioned members about Rattle's No.9 finale or unauthored editions. I hope it becomes much more useful. The thing is that now I'm more eager to do French Opera challenges than writing more posts about Anton Bruckner's discography.


----------



## Kollwitz (Jun 10, 2018)

Your effort in making them is much appreciated. I discovered one of the threads when googling 'Bruckner 8 best recordings' and then sought out the others. Even where I disagree (I'm a big fan of the Boulez Bruckner 8 and Vienna 44 Furtwangler 8), I understand your reasoning and there's great value in having such a thoughtful and comprehensive survey. Just received the Wand Lubeck Bruckner 8, partly as a result of your review. You also convinced me that the Giulini Bruckner 9 was worth purchasing, which I'm very grateful for. Will be very interested to read your revisions, though I can well appreciate the appeal of a diversion into French opera.


----------



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Kollwitz said:


> Just received the Wand Lubeck Bruckner 8, partly as a result of your review.


You mean this beauty?

............









I had never listened to the Lübeck No.9 before, but both performances in those acoustics are incredible with top-quality headphones indoors. Or did you just get the No.8 double cd in the old box?


----------



## Kollwitz (Jun 10, 2018)

That one! Listened to the first two movements of 8 on the way to work this morning, will have a listen on headphones this evening. The resonance of the cathedral is magnificent. I really like the NDR brass sound too.


----------



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Kollwitz said:


> That one! Listened to the first two movements of 8 on the way to work this morning, will have a listen on headphones this evening. The resonance of the cathedral is magnificent. I really like the NDR brass sound too.


Unlike the new Rémy Ballot St. Florian recordings, ignoring the pace contoversy, the microphones seem to be much closer to the brass than the strings, which I think it was the best decision to avoid excessive reverberation in the final sound.


----------



## Guest (Jun 14, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Gramophone seems to be falling on hard times. Its subject matter, physical media classical recordings, is a rapidly shrinking market. It has changed hands twice in recent years, and I doubt that it has been a big moneymaker for anyone. Four years ago, its circulation was 24 thousand in total, and that included digital subscribers! I have no idea what it is today, but I'd guess even smaller at least so far as paid subscribers are concerned.
> 
> Under the circumstances, there must be a constant temptation to recycle old material (for cost savings) and to preferentially review recordings from advertisers and to find them good. I'd guess that Gramophone will go the way of the Schwann catalog, sooner rather than later.


Sounds like the fate of The Grauniad; losing money like a reckless gambler.


----------

