# Music we deserve, music we get



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

In the US, typically we get the kind of music we're willing to barter our wealth for. If we want Beethoven in concerts, we pay for it and we get it. If we want Stockhausen, we pay for that -- and if there's much demand, backed by pocketbooks, believe me it'll become available as if by magic.

I've seen a bit of griping lately that our concert scene isn't meeting the needs of some, even to the extent that people propose that musical groups "should" play more of this or that kind of music. This seems to be without regard to what people are willing to pay for. So my question is addressed to the malcontents.

What do you propose? How should orchestras and other groups, which may have bills to pay running $100 million or more a year, determine what they will program?


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

My hunch is that this problem will resolve itself within 30-40 years.

Either the audience for any classical music will shrink to the point where large classical music institutions are not sustainable at all (very possible), or the audience will have changed sufficiently that programs can become more interesting. Everyone I know around my age (30) who likes classical music has broad taste.

At any given moment, artistic directors of course have to strike a balance between art and commerce. I'd say they should try to privilege art over commerce as much as they can.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

My home town of Rotterdam has the same problem, however they put in a special programme containing one lesser known orchestral work for a reduced price, seems to work :tiphat:


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

This is a big question. One that is front and center for many artistic organizations, not just orchestras. Do you program what you think people want to hear (or are willing to pay for). Do you program based on the directors personal interests? Do you try to educate the public about the NEW. How do you decide? Endless debates of course. 

I live near Salt Lake City, Utah. I am generally bored with the Utah Symphony, the local pro orchestra. They seem to mainly perform classical "greatest hits" and seldom program anything recent. For a few years they ran a chamber orchestra series of music only by living composers. I went as often as I could and heard some phenomenal music that totally loved. BUT, they were losing money on it, and the crowds were small, so they scrapped it. (*Big Sigh*)

I think inherent in this question are smaller questions such as 1) who is currently coming to the concerts (current demographic), 2) who do we want to come to the concerts? (demographic), 3) will the audience appreciate This (fill in the blank) work, even though they've never heard it? 4) How can we convince people to come hear music they don't already know?

If I ran an orchestra, or were a music director, I would try to blend maybe 40% of crowd pleasing, sure things, along with 40% of new things that they would PROBABLY like, and then maybe 20% of truly experimental experiences.


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## Adair (Feb 9, 2016)

For a time I organized chamber concerts and piano recitals, and general audiences hated anything off the beaten path. I'm not even talking about atonal, but works by composers like Busoni or Scriabin. Schoenberg--a composer now over a hundred years old--caused absolute horror, even if it was an early piece by him, in a late romantic idiom, before his 12-tone period.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Many people don't like to spend their money on unknown works when it can cost easily $150.00 for an evening out with good seats for two tickets. I can take a chance for ten dollars on a recording of new music and if I don't like it I've wasted only $10.00. If I attend a concerts of new music and I hated it then my pocketbook has been hit much harder. I would love to see some more adventurous programming by our local orchestras but I also understand how expensive it is to run an orchestra. The Ft. Worth Symphony may not be performing this year if they go on strike because the musicians are being asked to take a pay cut so they can keep operating. They have one of the more diversified schedules during the year and yet are struggling. We need the generation who has grown up thinking that music should be "free" to actually grow up and start supporting those who make the wonderful music they listen to by attending their concerts and yes..... even DONATING! If every person who attended a symphony concert every year would give just a $10.00 donation above the ticket price the orchestras would not have to struggle as much. Most people gripe about the cost of seats let alone digging a little deeper and giving something free to the orchestra. I always add a donation on every ticket purchase plus I donate to the DSO and the FWSO with a larger donation at least once a year to help support their youth programs.

Kevin


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## kartikeys (Mar 16, 2013)

Culture is imposed. Classical can make a big comeback if you have its fans 
fearlessly writing and critiquing music. US, like India, has a free speech problem.
you want to be nice to every kind of music and everything in general except
that which you feel is soulful. 
I have introduced friends to orchestral music by sending them links to ABBA 
music played on flutes and violins and they go on to listen to some classical.


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## kartikeys (Mar 16, 2013)

music should be melodious. melody is not easy.
melody seems to be lacking in favour of experimentation - as if
melody does not include drama. 
Also, as the world goes back to slow living, giving up on
aspects of mechanical life, classical will make a comeback.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

One of the most significant changes according to my professor is the increased popularity of early music. She said that three or four decades ago, early music was only just starting to gain recognition/revival. Today there is so much of early music that has been revived, researched objectively to show significance in history and overall performance.


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

Kevin Pearson said:


> Many people don't like to spend their money on unknown works when it can cost easily $150.00 for an evening out with good seats for two tickets. I can take a chance for ten dollars on a recording of new music and if I don't like it I've wasted only $10.00. If I attend a concerts of new music and I hated it then my pocketbook has been hit much harder. I would love to see some more adventurous programming by our local orchestras but I also understand how expensive it is to run an orchestra. The Ft. Worth Symphony may not be performing this year if they go on strike because the musicians are being asked to take a pay cut so they can keep operating. They have one of the more diversified schedules during the year and yet are struggling. We need the generation who has grown up thinking that music should be "free" to actually grow up and start supporting those who make the wonderful music they listen to by attending their concerts and yes..... even DONATING! If every person who attended a symphony concert every year would give just a $10.00 donation above the ticket price the orchestras would not have to struggle as much. Most people gripe about the cost of seats let alone digging a little deeper and giving something free to the orchestra. I always add a donation on every ticket purchase plus I donate to the DSO and the FWSO with a larger donation at least once a year to help support their youth programs.
> 
> Kevin


Great points! I could not agree more. Everything you mention either is happening or has happened where I live.

My local orchestra has a very large budget. Finance are always made public, especially when they are soliciting donations, and I can't remember the exact numbers, but something like 50% of the budget comes from ticket sales, 35% from donations and about 15% from grants from other charitable institutions and government programs. I am certain that it is difficult if not impossible to make programming choices that will make everyone happy. There is a large segment of the audience that always wants a currently "hit" soloist. This is very expensive. Others want standard repertoire, others want contemporary or "modernist" music. The main problem is that with so many options available to the public, if one or another segment of the audience gets too offended they will just stop attending and stop donating.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Kevin Pearson said:


> If every person who attended a symphony concert every year would give just a $10.00 donation above the ticket price the orchestras would not have to struggle as much.


I'm seldom in the mood, though, after paying that outrageous "handling fee" they spring on you at the last stage of buying tickets online.


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## Jeff W (Jan 20, 2014)

One thing my local orchestra (the Albany Symphony Orchestra) does is sandwiches newer works between perennial favorites. This year they premiered a brand new piano concerto by Michael Torke in between a Rossini overture and Schubert's Symphony No. 9. People have a tendency to show up and stick around when they do this.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

^^^

All of us who said on that Area 51 thread, "just ignore it" - brace yourselves!  :lol:


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> ^^^
> 
> All of us who said on that Area 51 thread, "just ignore it" - brace yourselves!  :lol:


Thanks for the reminder. This ia always good advice!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

May I again recommend Norman Lebrecht's book, _Who Killed Classical Music_? A lot of people wield the knives, and a big part of the problem was the warping of the economics of classical music by a small group of influential and powerful people. Lebrecht documents this aspect well, but does not engage in the other large issues (such as the rise of an infinite number of other ways to pass one's time) that are also at play.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> ^^^
> 
> All of us who said on that Area 51 thread, "just ignore it" - brace yourselves!  :lol:


You know my lips are sealed!


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Also worth nothing - even present-day audiences are not as ridiculously conservative as some people like to claim they are. Certainly in New York they're not, but my parents recently told me that the orchestra in my medium-sized Midwestern hometown played something by Feldman and it was well received.


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

Strange Magic said:


> May I again recommend Norman Lebrecht's book, _Who Killed Classical Music_? A lot of people wield the knives, and a big part of the problem was the warping of the economics of classical music by a small group of influential and powerful people. Lebrecht's documents this aspect well, but does not engage in the other large issues (such as the rise of an infinite number of other ways to pass one's time) that are also at play.


I have not read this book. I will order it today!


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## drnlaw (Jan 27, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> You know my lips are sealed!


I guess I'd better go chase down the Area 51 thread.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

At a time when orchestras receiving public funding are under further pressure because of current economic austerity, it is indeed risky to stage too many concerts of 'new' music' - either contemporary, or of unfamiliar composers - when did you last hear a symphony by Magnard, Alwyn or Taneyev in a concert hall?


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## Adair (Feb 9, 2016)

I cannot recall where I read it---maybe in Lebrecht?--but apparently in 1960 more Americans went to classical concerts than to professional baseball games. Jaw-dropping.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

What makes it tricky for orchestras is notion that they might be sacrificing future audiences for the sake of current ones. Have they chosen to go down the tubes with their current aging subscribers? Should they invest (for lack of a better word) in furture audiences.

This sort of thing isn't easy to measure. If you can't imagine young people listening to Stockhausen, what about Reich or Glass or Part? Should you try to program at least enough of this stuff to attract as wide an audeince as possible, even if it means occasioonally disappointing your current crowd?

This really isn't much different that what many businesses face. We know that X is more popular than Y, but we need to provide some Y to expand our reach.


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

Attendance at baseball games in the USA in 2015 was 73,760,000. I could not quickly find a specific number, but I would estimate perhaps 3,000,000 tickets to orchestra concerts were purchased.

Here is a link to an article about the sad state of classical music.

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/...les_decline_is_classical_on_death_s_door.html


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Does anyone have a citation for the claim that in the 1960s, more Americans attended Classical concerts than ballgames?

Baseball attendance was much lower then, but still... it would be nice to see real numbers.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> What makes it tricky for orchestras is notion that they might be sacrificing future audiences for the sake of current ones. Have they chosen to go down the tubes with their current aging subscribers? Should they invest (for lack of a better word) in furture audiences.
> 
> This sort of thing isn't easy to measure. If you can't imagine young people listening to Stockhausen, what about Reich or Glass or Part? Should you try to program at least enough of this stuff to attract as wide an audeince as possible, even if it means occasioonally disappointing your current crowd?
> 
> This really isn't much different that what many businesses face. We know that X is more popular than Y, but we need to provide some Y to expand our reach.


I don't really think there's any way for orchestras to save themselves through adventurous programming, in all honesty. Putting on orchestral concerts is highly expensive, and few venues survive on ticket sails without a big influx of philanthropy. As with commercial cinema, I would predict an increasing reliance on an ever-dwindling number of big money makers--proven warhorses, pop crossover hits, and famous soloists. As is the case with Hollywood, it's far from ideal as an artistic outcome, but I don't see any way around it. All of this has more to do with socioeconomic forces than individual choices (however important the people who make them may seem to be).

It will be easier to cater to smaller, niche audiences of chamber and solo instrumental music.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

The local orchestra frequently plays these “suites,” e.g., “The Gadfly Suite,” “the Firebird Suite,” where they extract music from a classical work without having to play the whole thing. I would like to see them try “Led Zeppelin Suite,” or “Carol King Suite” or “The Beatles Suite.” Make these a 20-minute work that they can sandwich in between their regular stuff and see how it flies. 
I realize that some orchestras do occasionally play contemporary music, but they seem to make a whole concert of it. If we can get people who like Carol King interested in Mozart, etc., that might help CM’s future, which doesn’t look too bright at this point, IMO.


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## Stirling (Nov 18, 2015)

The people of 100 years from now while ask "why did they play this?"

The number 1 reason is that we did know about it.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

manyene said:


> At a time when orchestras receiving public funding are under further pressure because of current economic austerity, it is indeed risky to stage too many concerts of 'new' music' - either contemporary, or of unfamiliar composers - when did you last hear a symphony by Magnard, Alwyn or Taneyev in a concert hall?


You could drive a few miles up the M6 to Lancaster on Thursday 25th Feb for a concert of 'new music', including a premiere:

NICOLE LIZÉE New Work (world premiere)

TORU TAKEMITSU Seasons

MORTON FELDMAN King of Denmark

IANNIS XENAKIS Psappha

https://www.lancasterarts.org/whats-on/pioneers-of-percussion Most expensive ticket is less than £20


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Pyotr said:


> The local orchestra frequently plays these "suites," e.g., "The Gadfly Suite," "the Firebird Suite," where they extract music from a classical work without having to play the whole thing. I would like to see them try "Led Zeppelin Suite," or "Carol King Suite" or "The Beatles Suite." Make these a 20-minute work that they can sandwich in between their regular stuff and see how it flies.
> I realize that some orchestras do occasionally play contemporary music, but they seem to make a whole concert of it. If we can get people who like Carol King interested in Mozart, etc., that might help CM's future, which doesn't look too bright at this point, IMO.


I think you are perhaps overestimating the drawing power of Carole King.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Arranging the Beatles for orchestra makes as much sense as arranging Brahms for four-piece guitar band.

(Though actually, now that I say that....)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

isorhythm said:


> Arranging the Beatles for orchestra makes as much sense as arranging Brahms for four-piece guitar band.


There are several albums of Beatles songs arranged for orchestra. Here's one of my favorites:










Also a nice album of piano "improvisations" in the style of Bach, by John Bayless:


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Those are a little more interesting, I think, since they're aiming at sort of a pastiche of old/new...I was thinking more of a typical Pops concert type thing.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

If you want to appeal to a younger audience, then you need to stop thinking narrowly, and include in your description and presentation of classical music the only widely popular orchestral music being written today: soundtracks of movies and especially video games. My sons wouldn't be caught dead at a concert of Brahms or Beethoven if they could help it, but would show up if the programme include a suite of music from Super Mario games. There's some good material there.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> May I again recommend Norman Lebrecht's book, _Who Killed Classical Music_? A lot of people wield the knives, and a big part of the problem was the warping of the economics of classical music by a small group of influential and powerful people. Lebrecht documents this aspect well, but does not engage in the other large issues (such as the rise of an infinite number of other ways to pass one's time) that are also at play.


My first exposure to Lebrecht was his book on conductors which I found quite interesting. Since then I have followed his blog, Slippedisc and some of his appearances such as the Verdi/Wagner debate at the Royal Opera, and I have come to the realization that his biases, which are very, very strong, often seem to warp his logic, particularly of some in the classical music world. It just happens that I sometimes find myself in general agreement with the philosophy but find his 'take no prisoners' style to be very off-putting.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

gardibolt said:


> If you want to appeal to a younger audience, then you need to stop thinking narrowly, and include in your description and presentation of classical music the only widely popular orchestral music being written today: soundtracks of movies and especially video games. My sons wouldn't be caught dead at a concert of Brahms or Beethoven if they could help it, but would show up if the programme include a suite of music from Super Mario games. There's some good material there.


Speaking of video game music (which is usually rather underwhelming), I genuinely like this. And not just for nostalgia reasons......


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

gardibolt said:


> If you want to appeal to a younger audience, then you need to stop thinking narrowly, and include in your description and presentation of classical music the only widely popular orchestral music being written today: soundtracks of movies and especially video games. My sons wouldn't be caught dead at a concert of Brahms or Beethoven if they could help it, but would show up if the programme include a suite of music from Super Mario games. There's some good material there.


I did a video games music show once. It was in the middle of one of those games weekend events, conducted and presented by a real video games composer and was heavily promoted. Sales were middling despite high expectations

Later that year, another nearby orchestra put on a "2001" concert with Zarathustra, Blue Danube and Ligeti's Atmospheres and Requiem. That sold out three times.

There might be a lesson there


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Becca said:


> My first exposure to Lebrecht was his book on conductors which I found quite interesting. Since then I have followed his blog, Slippedisc and some of his appearances such as the Verdi/Wagner debate at the Royal Opera, and I have come to the realization that his biases, which are very, very strong, often seem to warp his logic, particularly of some in the classical music world. It just happens that I sometimes find myself in general agreement with the philosophy but find his 'take no prisoners' style to be very off-putting.


I think Lebrecht's book is essential reading for looking at the part that greed and short-sightedness have played in driving the economics of classical music into the ionosphere. The weakness of the book, though, is in failing to discuss the several other, and perhaps more intractable, forces at work to erode the vitality of classical music--technological and social forces that are becoming all-pervasive in governing how people spend their time and even how, when, and if they think as they did, say, 50 or 75 years ago.

I may pontificate on this later, in case anyone wants to leave town or send their iPad to the Geek Squad for repair.


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

Programming the Beatles for orchestras ain't going to cut it. In the parlance of youth: "I can't even. ..."

What you need is Lady Gaga or someone with her "street cred" in pop culture to suddenly start championing the music on Instagram, complete with pop-up chamber concerts at The Stone. (Does The Stone still exist?) Then you'd have something. Sex and drugs and Cosi fan Tutti. Mozart was a party boy, right? Lets go! 

Damn, I'm closing in on 60 and I feel like the youngest guy at the concert hall. And I pretty much am. Can't imagine what it would be like for a 20- or 30-something. (Remember that show?) They ain't coming to the concert hall. Not right out of the cold. Gotta take the music to them.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Blancrocher said:


> I'm seldom in the mood, though, after paying that outrageous "handling fee" they spring on you at the last stage of buying tickets online.


That's because our "representatives" have voted in favor of monopoly and extortion at the expense of the artists, venues, and audiences. Fans should be able to buy tickets directly from the venue box office without the middle man, who is now a powerful monopoly.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Odd. In our local venues, tickets can be bought on-line or at the box office, same price. There are obviously venues where a middle man handles on-line ticket sales and charges a fee, but I don't recall this being due to any political process. It would certainly cost your local musicians, or the venue owners, a considerable amount of money to build their own secure and dependable on-line ticket sales site, and to staff and maintain it. So ticket prices would go up in any case, perhaps by even more.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm hesitant to answer questions like these because it usually leads to a lot of political and social debate, which is not something I'm interested in doing on these forums. However, because I was one of the people recently griping a little, I will just say that the OP frames the question within the context of capitalism and how can we fix this problem we've created within the context of this false system we've made and act as though it is immutable law. I think the system itself is the problem. Whether or not anyone here agrees with me - that is your choice, I respect your opinions. 

"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." 

-Einstein


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Odd. In our local venues, tickets can be bought on-line or at the box office, same price. There are obviously venues where a middle man handles on-line ticket sales and charges a fee, but I don't recall this being due to any political process. It would certainly cost your local musicians, or the venue owners, a considerable amount of money to build their own secure and dependable on-line ticket sales site, and to staff and maintain it. So ticket prices would go up in any case, perhaps by even more.


As long as there is a choice, it's OK. If people don't want to go to the box office in person, or make a phone call, they can pay the online fees. I normally attend chamber music concerts at local schools or museums/art galleries, so I just purchase my tickets at the door. I suppose the abusive fees levied by the ticket agents are worse in the pop/rock business.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Programming is also driven quite markedly by name recognition. Repertoire, soloist, conductor (not necessarily in that order). Which is why you can programme any old Beethoven or Mozart or Tchaikovsky - or even Mahler or Shostakovich these days. On the other hand people regularly come to see well known musicians perform works that would normally be well outside their performed comfort zone (witness packed houses recently where I live for a world reknowned cellist in Tout le Monde Lontain, a well known conductor in Messiaen's Eclairs and a charismatic pianist playing a concerto in the first half and the piano part in Turangalila after the interval). 

So you can't get up and coming soloist and conductor to do a concert of Cherubini, Myaskovsky and Reger if you want to maximise the chance of a decent house and you probably can't get them to do Varese, Schoenberg and Birtwistle either. I suppose the difference between the two is the fear of offence with the latter programme. 

Long story short - looks like big names can take leadership with more adventurous programming. Which is what I understand Saalonen, Rattle, Hahn and others have been doing do varying degrees. So there's hope yet


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

dgee said:


> Programming is also driven quite markedly by name recognition. Repertoire, soloist, conductor (not necessarily in that order). Which is why you can programme any old Beethoven or Mozart or Tchaikovsky - or even Mahler or Shostakovich these days. On the other hand people regularly come to see well known musicians perform works that would normally be well outside their performed comfort zone (witness packed houses recently where I live for a world reknowned cellist in Tout le Monde Lontain, *a well known conductor in Messiaen's Eclairs* and a charismatic pianist playing a concerto in the first half and the piano part in Turangalila after the interval).
> 
> So you can't get up and coming soloist and conductor to do a concert of Cherubini, Myaskovsky and Reger if you want to maximise the chance of a decent house and you probably can't get them to do Varese, Schoenberg and Birtwistle either. I suppose the difference between the two is the fear of offence with the latter programme.
> 
> Long story short - looks like big names can take leadership with more adventurous programming. Which is what I understand Saalonen, Rattle, Hahn and others have been doing do varying degrees. So there's hope yet


Which conductor? A concert I'll be travelling to Wellington to see in July will be Andrew Davis conducting that work. It'll be the first chance I've had to see anything of Messiaen live - and that's one of my favorites.

I'm expecting it to be the concert of the decade. I'm also expecting it to be sold out.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Most concerts have one or two pieces, depending on length, before the intermission and one or two after the intermission. Make the second piece the one to get people thinking about someting different and allow them to talk about and digest it during intermission and reward them with what they came for after the intermission. Those who are so rigid in their tastes that they show up only after the intermission will miss half of the concert


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