# What Is Going On With This Forum Lately?



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

It seems like this forum is getting pretty out of control. Does anyone feel the same way I do?

I'm tired of all the crap that people seem to be dishing out to others lately. I would really like it to stop, because there's absolutely no need in it at all.

If you disagree with somebody, then disagree with them respectfully, there's no need in resorting to personal attacks. Am I wrong in thinking this?

Please share your thoughts.

-Mirror Image


----------



## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

To be honest, I agree with Nicola's post in the "Ten Greatest Composers - Do You Agree?" Thread. 

Certain members are taking criticisms far more personally than they were intended. This is the internet - it doesn't matter - nobody actually knows who you are. Being offended over the internet is silly, and so is mindlessly placating people just to retain an agreeable (and slightly tedious) atmosphere. I like disagreement and fighting. It's entertaining.


----------



## Ciel_Rouge (May 16, 2008)

If you want fights, join the WWF (World Wrestling Federation). In a large, respectable forum users share knowledge and experiences and do NOT attack each other personally. The latter is childish, counterproductive and just distasteful. Talk Classical is well known for its great attitude towards new users and varied opinions. Let it continue to be that way.


----------



## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

There are also forum rules ... debating is one issue ... name calling is another. 

Debate all you want, but be civil and respecting to each other ... Yes, it is the internet, but this is a well respected music discussion forum. State YOUR opinion and leave it at that ... singling out another member saying, for example, "you're wrong" is more easily replaced with, "I disagree with you and this is why ..." Nobody here is the ultimate authority on any subject of music ... the purpose of this forum is "discussion" ... and with civility. 

This forum is well known on the internet and has a high reputation of being a respected place for great discussions. Check out a google search on "classical music forum" and this forum is Top Banana on that list (at least here in the US). 

Three threads have been closed this morning because of the severely off topic postings and the ad homs, the latter which will not be tolerated. More thread closing are imminent ... keep to the topics, and keep the flaming and name calling nonsense off the boards here - it ads nothing to the thread topic.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Some people are just too touchy, and that's the real problem. Maybe they feel and are treated like loosers in real life, so they want to get some respect at the internet. It's not my business. But the idea of those, as you say, respectful and civil discussions is unhealthly. And utopian. Get back to reality - you can be insulted by office worker, stranger on the street, anyone; that's how the world is and always will be.


----------



## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Aramis said:


> Some people are just too touchy, and that's the real problem. Maybe they feel and are treated like loosers in real life, so they want to get some respect at the internet. It's not my business. But the idea of those, as you say, respectful and civil discussions is unhealthly. And utopian. Get back to reality - you can be insulted by office worker, stranger on the street, anyone; that's how the world is and always will be.


Fascinating.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

tapkaara said:


> fascinating.


Seek the ancient sword!!!11!


----------



## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Just because you can be verbally assaulted on the street doesn't mean you should expect to be verbally assaulted. If you want to be insulted, I don't see a problem with PMing someone and asking them to be that way over PM...

It's just stupid, and people whether they want respect or not doesn't give them the right to go off on random members for saying something they happen to not agree with.


----------



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> To be honest, I agree with Nicola's post in the "Ten Greatest Composers - Do You Agree?" Thread.
> 
> Certain members are taking criticisms far more personally than they were intended. This is the internet - it doesn't matter - nobody actually knows who you are. Being offended over the internet is silly, and so is mindlessly placating people just to retain an agreeable (and slightly tedious) atmosphere. I like disagreement and fighting. It's entertaining.


You like disagreement and fighting? This is interesting, because I can't imagine you being one to argue. (sarcasm)


----------



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Aramis said:


> Some people are just too touchy, and that's the real problem. Maybe they feel and are treated like loosers in real life, so they want to get some respect at the internet. It's not my business. But the idea of those, as you say, respectful and civil discussions is unhealthly. And utopian. Get back to reality - you can be insulted by office worker, stranger on the street, anyone; that's how the world is and always will be.


Yes, it is how the world is, but it's not how it's going to be on this forum. This forum has rules Aramis. Whether you agree with them or not, you must follow them.


----------



## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I cannot imagine anyone wanting to participate in a forum where the rules allow members to belittle and purposefully annoy other members.

Yeah, it only the internet and all that, but all it takes if for you to log on in a bad mood (like I did the other day) and then all it takes is for one purposefully nasty person to get you going over the edge.

There seems to be this confusion with some as to what constitutes sprited discourse where members disagree on points and flat out insults. Yeah, it's only the internet, but if every post you ever make is consistantly put down for the sake of putting it down, why would you want to spend your time in a forum like that?


----------



## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> I cannot imagine anyone wanting to participate in a forum where the rules allow members to belittle and purposefully annoy other members.
> 
> Yeah, it only the internet and all that, but all it takes if for you to log on in a bad mood (like I did the other day) and then all it takes is for one purposefully nasty person to get you going over the edge.
> 
> There seems to be this confusion with some as to what constitutes sprited discourse where members disagree on points and flat out insults. Yeah, it's only the internet, but if every post you ever make is consistantly put down for the sake of putting it down, why would you want to spend your time in a forum like that?


I think it's sad when someone mistakes being disagreed with and being proven wrong about something with having 'every post you ever make is consistantly put down for the sake of putting it down', and, owing to this mistake takes recourse to abuse and name-calling.


----------



## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

What happened to this thread? Where have our rabbits gone?

I'm confident that TC will cool down again. All forums have their ups and downs and TC has seen many of them. In the meantime, I'll try to stay out of trouble.


----------



## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

Bach said:


> Hahaha - it wasn't the hilarious one about you. I loved that one as well, but for different reasons..


Ah yes you mean this comment?



> As I said, Mahler was not that influential, except perhaps in respect of one or two Second Viennese School members, but they aren't worth wasting time on because the whole bunch of them are mere second-raters in terms of the grand scheme of things. Only a few *roll-your-own, long-haired, jumped-up musical nerds* who hang about internet message boards like this one tend to like all that "stuff", for want of a better word.


Personal insults from a curmudgeonly dilettante, whose pontificating and glib, impotent attempts at musical criticism are the source of endless amusement for me.


----------



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Herzeleide said:


> Personal insults from a curmudgeonly dilettante, whose pontificating and glib, impotent attempts at musical criticism are the source of endless amusement for me.


Thanks for pulling this post over here, Herzeleide. I think this is a great example of what I was talking about. I mean there's no need in talking to people the way, Nicola talked to me.

I was merely making a point about Mahler, but she/he chose to attack not only me, but the good people who come to this forum to discuss this music.

"Nicola" has said he/she is abiding by the forum rules, but the forum rules say nothing about personally attacking members with insults that are shrouded in a "polite" form of communication.

It's like here is the form Nicola uses:

First sentences: politeness with various condescending statements intertwined
Middle paragraph: indirect personal attacks, which somehow manage to take the form of direct personal attacks all at the same time
Last sentences: politeness


----------



## Ciel_Rouge (May 16, 2008)

Aramis said:


> Some people are just too touchy, and that's the real problem. Maybe they feel and are treated like loosers in real life, so they want to get some respect at the internet. It's not my business. But the idea of those, as you say, respectful and civil discussions is unhealthly. And utopian. Get back to reality - you can be insulted by office worker, stranger on the street, anyone; that's how the world is and always will be.


I couldn't disagree more. What kind of logic is that? Aramis, by accepting abuse you PROMOTE abuse and may expect even more abuse to follow. Abusive governments in Africa are telling their people: "This is reality, you can't do anything about it". But this is not some abusive country governed by cinical leaders. This is OUR forum. We are civilised and polite people and there is no reason to accept abuse and encourage further abuse by doing so.

*IMHO, lack of ad homs is the crucial difference between a polite, valuable forum and a toxic, lame forum.*


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Ciel_Rouge said:


> We are civilised and polite people and there is no reason to accept abuse and promote it by doing so.


You can't avoid hostility between people, and it's a lot better to let them tell each other some nasty things than force them to act with respect. I've seen forum like this before: you couldn't find any post with flame or abuse, but there was so much hate hanging in the air that you could't breath. Let's just keep things in their natural way. A little riot from time to time time won't kill us.


----------



## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

All we ask is that people keep the hostility off the public boards. Here's what the FAQ on this states:

"*Guidelines for General Behavior* Be polite to your fellow members. If you disagree with them, please state your opinion in a »civil« and respectful manner.
Do not post comments about other members person or »posting style« on the forum (unless said comments are unmistakably positive). Argue opinions all you like but do not get personal and never resort to »ad homs«."

Those are the rules of THIS forum ... As stated earlier, this is a top notch forum community and rates very high in the internet rankings ... and this high rating without the flaming and abuse, too.

Frederik Magle has set some very high standards for this forum community. We are all (myself included) guests of Mr. Magle here ... it's his forum and his to operate as he sees fit.


----------



## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Krummhorn said:


> All we ask is that people keep the hostility off the public boards. Here's what the FAQ on this states:
> 
> "*Guidelines for General Behavior* Be polite to your fellow members. If you disagree with them, please state your opinion in a »civil« and respectful manner.
> Do not post comments about other members person or »posting style« on the forum (unless said comments are unmistakably positive). Argue opinions all you like but do not get personal and never resort to »ad homs«."
> ...


Amen to that!


----------



## Guest (May 25, 2009)

Have you noticed that it is only the males that lock horns, I can guarantee that you will *never *stop it. It is just the nature of the beast. too much testerone coupled with a bit of immaturity.


----------



## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

It's more immaturity and plain nastiness more than anything.


----------



## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

> This is the internet - it doesn't matter - nobody actually knows who you are. Being offended over the internet is silly, and so is mindlessly placating people just to retain an agreeable (and slightly tedious) atmosphere. I like disagreement and fighting. It's entertaining.





> But the idea of those, as you say, respectful and civil discussions is unhealthly.





> You can't avoid hostility between people, and it's a lot better to let them tell each other some nasty things than force them to act with respect.





> Personal insults from a curmudgeonly dilettante, whose pontificating and glib, impotent attempts at musical criticism are the source of endless amusement for me.


Reading responses like these, I can't help thinking that we don't really need to look much further for an answer to the original question. This forum has reached a situation now where any discussion likely to be controversial rapidly becomes unpleasant, where interest in the music is displaced (by the activities of a few) towards an interest in point-scoring, ego-inflation, unnecessary needling of other posters, or being aggressive for its own sake just to stir things up. There are many threads to which, in the ordinary way, I would like to contribute; but now I decide to wait a bit to see how things go; and they so often go badly that I lose interest in the discussion and end up not contributing at all.

I don't know how many other posters are being affected like this? Maybe I'm the only one - in which case it hardly matters. But if others are also responding like this (i.e., _not_ responding), then the possibility of effective, amicable discussion on this forum is in danger of being lost altogether.


----------



## Ciel_Rouge (May 16, 2008)

Some people simply confuse disagreement and hostility. Hostility is counterproductive and kills forums. Disagreement leads to vivid exchange of ideas and adds variety. It has nothing to do with "testosterone" or whatever. *An individual is either knowledgable and friendly or lame and hostile.* Elgarian, by refraining from posting about music, you allow the off-topic rants and fights to take over. I am on many forums about different subjects and in one of them any poster showing any hint of hostility towards anyone, receives a PM from the administrator as a warning and his nonsense is deleted. On other forums the administrators hesitate to remove disrespectful troublemakers and their irrelevant posts. Eventually, they get banned anyway. However, if the admins acted quicker, they would spare a lot of wasted time and insult to the users.


----------



## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Ciel_Rouge said:


> Elgarian, by refraining from posting about music, you allow the off-topic rants and fights to take over.


That's exactly the point I'm making, Ciel.


----------



## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> Reading responses like these, I can't help thinking that we don't really need to look much further for an answer to the original question.


I'm obviously not going to be nice to someone whose persistently invidious and inflammatory posts appear here with predictable regularity. The obvious solution is to ban the source of these things. I'm surprised this double-headed serpent 'Nicola'/'Gorm Less' hasn't been banned.


----------



## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

Krummhorn said:


> All we ask is that people keep the hostility off the public boards. Here's what the FAQ on this states:
> 
> "*Guidelines for General Behavior* Be polite to your fellow members. If you disagree with them, please state your opinion in a »civil« and respectful manner.
> Do not post comments about other members person or »posting style« on the forum (unless said comments are unmistakably positive). Argue opinions all you like but do not get personal and never resort to »ad homs«."
> ...





Tapkaara said:


> It's more immaturity and plain nastiness more than anything.


Beautiful sentiments, both of you. Unfortunately, Tapkaara doesn't practice what he preaches, having insulted me several times a few days ago, and Krummhorn has not removed Nicola's insults of my physical appearance, seen in this post:

http://www.talkclassical.com/52468-post54.html

Practice what you preach guys, practice what you preach...


----------



## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

It really feels good to know I'm not alone in thinking the way I do about what's been going on in here.


----------



## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

It would be nice if there was more of a community feeling - that's sorta the point of a forum like this, right? I mean, it's informative and all that, but if that would be all that we are after we could just as easily read articles on wikipedia, allmusic guide or any of the countless sites dedicated to classical music. I know that I'm naive, but supporting each other, learning from each other and encouraging others to explore music that they previously ignored or weren't aware of should ideally be the goal - or one of them anyway. I mean, I've bought cd's that I wouldn't have if I wasn't a member here. All that trash talk about this or that member being an idiot, let alone childish remarks about the lenght of someone's hair (who cares?) are just infantile. If I want to be entertained that way I can always go read some comments on youtube.


----------



## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

jhar26 said:


> It would be nice if there was more of a community feeling - that's sorta the point of a forum like this, right? I mean, it's informative and all that, but if that would be all that we are after we could just as easily read articles on wikipedia, allmusic guide or any of the countless sites dedicated to classical music. I know that I'm naive, but supporting each other, learning from each other and encouraging others to explore music that they previously ignored or weren't aware of should ideally be the goal - or one of them anyway. I mean, I've bought cd's that I wouldn't have if I wasn't a member here. All that trash talk about this or that member being an idiot, let alone childish remarks about the lenght of someone's hair (who cares?) are just infantile. If I want to be entertained that way I can always go read some comments on youtube.


I guess I'm naive too, Jhar.


----------



## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

> I'm obviously not going to be nice to someone whose persistently invidious and inflammatory posts appear here with predictable regularity. The obvious solution is to ban the source of these things. I'm surprised this double-headed serpent 'Nicola'/'Gorm Less' hasn't been banned.





> Unfortunately, Tapkaara doesn't practice what he preaches, having insulted me several times a few days ago, and Krummhorn has not removed Nicola's insults of my physical appearance, seen in this post:





> Practice what you preach guys, practice what you preach


And so it continues. See what I mean?

Jhar26 is quite right. This forum can be a superb place for learning and growing, musically; and I, like him, have seen my own musical experience expand beyond all precedent since I started visiting here. But for this to be a place where that can continue to happen, there has to be mutual respect. One has to be able to know less than others yet still be able to offer an opinion - _even an erroneous one_ - without fear of ridicule, contempt, or patronising comments. There are humane and respectful ways, for those committed to genuine intelligent discourse, of correcting errors. If Jill knows more than Jack about something, that presents a potential opportunity for Jack to benefit from Jill's knowledge; it should not (in a humane society) be an opportunity for Jill to solve her personal insecurity issues at Jack's expense and make it clear what an ignorant weed she thinks he is.

The love of music is what brings most of us here, yet in many of the problematic exchanges I read, a knowledge of music seems to be valued mainly as a weapon, or merely as a useful excuse for a fight. In those increasingly frequent hostile exchanges I usually see little evidence of any real love of music at all.


----------



## Nicola (Nov 25, 2007)

Herzeleide said:


> I'm obviously not going to be nice to someone whose persistently invidious and inflammatory posts appear here with predictable regularity. The obvious solution is to ban the source of these things. I'm surprised this double-headed serpent 'Nicola'/'Gorm Less' hasn't been banned.


This highly invidious slur against me has been reported to the Management. I might add that it is typical of the kind of insult you regularly dish out to anyone who questions your assumed intellectual/musical superiority over other people. In my opinion you are one of the main sources of discontent in this Forum currently, and it would be far better off without your kind.


----------



## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Money can't buy this incredible fun I'm having with all these side-splittingly uproarious posts.


----------



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Nicola said:


> This highly invidious slur against me has been reported to the Management. I might add that it is typical of the kind of insult you regularly dish out to anyone who questions your assumed intellectual/musical superiority over other people. In my opinion you are one of the main sources of discontent in this Forum currently, and it would be far better off without your kind.


Whatever you say, [removed]


----------



## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

Nicola said:


> This highly invidious slur against me has been reported to the Management.


Did you remember to report your own unprovoked slur against me?



Nicola said:


> I might add that it is typical of the kind of insult you regularly dish out to anyone who questions your assumed intellectual/musical superiority over other people.


The insult was reciprocal.



Nicola said:


> In my opinion you are one of the main sources of discontent in this Forum currently, and it would be far better off without your kind.


In my opinion the whole forum would be better off without your constant Victor Meldrew-esque appearances and weird desire to constantly harangue and hector Mirror Image.

It is perfectly obvious to all of us that you have little to no desire to discuss music, as can be seen from a cursory glance at all the posts you've made.


----------



## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> If Jill knows more than Jack about something, that presents a potential opportunity for Jack to benefit from Jill's knowledge; it should not (in a humane society) be an opportunity for Jill to solve her personal insecurity issues at Jack's expense and make it clear what an ignorant weed she thinks he is.


Who has personal insecurity problems, Elgarian? 

There's an enormous amount of indirect slurs being tossed around this forum. I can't be sure about this, but I take it you're referencing the recent _tracasserie_ between me and Tapkaara? The issue there was that Tapkaara didn't like being disagreed with, and thus took recourse to insults (most, but not all, of which are now deleted).


----------



## Nicola (Nov 25, 2007)

Elgarian said:


> The love of music is what brings most of us here, yet in many of the problematic exchanges I read, a knowledge of music seems to be valued mainly as a weapon, or merely as a useful excuse for a fight. In those increasingly frequent hostile exchanges I usually see little evidence of any real love of music at all.


This comment above, whilst true in some cases, has definitely been made before, not just here but on several other classical music forums.

If I may elaborate, there would appear to be essentially two very annoying sub-groups of the classical music enjoying public. I am of course referring to the general situation in the world at large, and not to any specific location (real or in cyberspace). In both cases their members tend to loiter around forums like this, possibly in between their coffee breaks at school or university or, in some cases, Job Seeker Allowance offices (for USA readers "the dole queues").

But that's where the similarities end ...

*Group 1* comprise those who have acquired a "superior" musical knowledge to that of mere mortals, and who come to intrnet forums primarily in order to prove it. They are highly conceited people and often talk in a complex language with a Thesaurus stuffed under their usually smelly armpits. They are so far advanced, and ahead of the rest of us, the untrained, that they are not seriously interested in learning anything from places like this, but merely give the impression of so doing. In essence, they see themselves as information givers, not receivers. Unfortunately, if anyone on the receiving end of this condescendingly given advice says he/she smells a dirty rat lurking behind it, then mayhem is usually the result.

*Group 2* is different altogether. They are less easy to spot because they are generally a lot thicker, more like the population at large. However, they can usually be distinguished from the hoi-polloi by virtue of sometimes, but not always, having suddenly seen the musical "light" (often after a mis-spent youth). They then go on mad spending spree like there's no tomorrow, ram it all down down their throats morning noon and night, and then "bingo" they've become "experts", and ready to provide detailed and considered advice to others. The truth of course is that they couldn't tell the difference between a Brahms piano sonata and a Monteverdi madrigal, or even a track from some crap-awful Gilbert & Sullivan operetta. But that is a mere technicality as they are so clever they think they will easily find a way of wriggling out that one should anyone twig that they're not fully genuine.

In the above, I have concentrated on the two main malign subgroups. There are of course several other Groups in the musical population who are mainly benign and cause no trouble. Problems obviously only arise when there is a preponderance of either Groups 1 or 2. Particularly unpleasant results can occur if these two Groups coalesce, so that you get members of each group getting into bed with each, so to speak. Some very nasty looking results are beginning to be reported from some quarters.

So it seems, Elgarian, that this is the way things can develop if care is not taken to watch out for such developments. These people are obviously a mighty pain in the rear, but sadly the remedies are not always clear cut and the process of repair is not always plain-sailing. Some of these people go down spluttering innocence and generally cause a lot of trouble once they think the spot light is upon them.


----------



## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

Ahh imagine a forum filled with trolls and Scrooges like [deleted]... what pandemonium would ensue if they had to turn on each other!


----------



## Frederik Magle (Feb 17, 2006)

Krummhorn said:


> There are also forum rules ... debating is one issue ... name calling is another.
> 
> Debate all you want, but be civil and respecting to each other ... Yes, it is the internet, but this is a well respected music discussion forum. State YOUR opinion and leave it at that ... singling out another member saying, for example, "you're wrong" is more easily replaced with, "I disagree with you and this is why ..." Nobody here is the ultimate authority on any subject of music ... the purpose of this forum is "discussion" ... and with civility.
> 
> ...


This needs to be repeated. And with that said I'm closing this thread.


----------

