# Round One: Voi Che Sapate. Berganza, Bartoli, Patti



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Warning: the one with Patti is with piano.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Adelina Patti was a law unto herself during much of her career, bu I, for one, don’t like the way she pulls and pushes the phrases in this charming aria, distorting the line. One or two phrases, fine, but the whole aria? No! The voice is a delight, the tone pure and almost virginal.

Cecilia Bartoli’s performance comes, I assume, from the Barenboim 1991 complete recording. It’s early Bartoli and, thus free from many of the mannerisms she assumed in later career, when she became Cecilia Bartoli! It is sung simply, as Mozart should be sung and I like the tempo. There is a hint of toughness in the voice even at this remove, though it’s not totally inappropriate for Cherubino.

Teresa Berganza I usually like, and the lightness of voice was always a characteristic of her singing. What I dislike is the hint of a vibratoless sound I hear sometimes at the beginning of phrases. Is that a stylistic choice to denote that it’s “Mozart?” Otherwise, I find it an almost ideal traversal of the aria, though she sounds more like a soprano than mezzo.

I must say that I don’t listen, or haven’t often listened to any of these singers unless they appear in other recordings. Not Patti, of course.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Adelina Patti was a law unto herself during much of her career, bu I, for one, don’t like the way she pulls and pushes the phrases in this charming aria, distorting the line. One or two phrases, fine, but the whole aria? No! The voice is a delight, the tone pure and almost virginal.
> 
> Cecilia Bartoli’s performance comes, I assume, from the Barenboim 1991 complete recording. It’s early Bartoli and, thus free from many of the mannerisms she assumed in later career, when she became Cecilia Bartoli! It is sung simply, as Mozart should be sung and I like the tempo. There is a hint of toughness in the voice even at this remove, though it’s not totally inappropriate for Cherubino.
> 
> ...


Mas, I was hoping for some fresh voices for the contest and glad you found them so. Thanks for playing.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Berganza wins for me. Patti is the best singer here by far, but the character singing this aria is a pervy 14 year old boy. She sings it so...seriously. Sounds more like a nun than a middle schooler.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Berganza wins for me. Patti is the best singer here by far, but the character singing this aria is a pervy 14 year old boy. She sings it so...seriously. Sounds more like a nun than a middle schooler.


Sir, I question the appropriateness of using the word "pe**y" for our august group 😜


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

If I didn't know better I'd guess that this was a tricky set-up -- meaning one really was obviously a superb rendering next to one that was very pretty but nothing particularly outstanding and the other which sadly was an old recording of Patti which was occasionally erratic in rhythm and was not particularly engaging to the ear. 
I will fault the dated material recording and go with a singer I normally do not keep at the top of my list but Bartoli came through with flying colors and deserves the gold.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The gulf between the crisp, clean Mozart we think of as stylistically proper and the freewheeling, singerly (equivalent to painterly) one presented by the 62-year-old Patti is wide. I was shocked - mostly pleasantly - by this recording when I first heard it, and I asked for it here mainly out of curiosity about people's reactions to it. Whether or not it corresponds to anyone's idea of Classical style or the character of Cherubino, there's no question that it's an enormously creative performance, rhythmically free and full of nuance, delivered by a voice slightly aged but still easy and clear, and I think it's much more than a historical curiosity.

Between the other two "straight" - or straightlaced - performances, I think Berganza captures more of the character's impetuosity, though like MAS I wonder why she tends to begin phrases with "straight" tone. Her vibrato is minimal to begin with, so the suppression of it would seem to be of little musical value, if it's intended to have any. Bartoli is richer in tone, and the mannered breathiness that could intrude in her soft singing is not too much in evidence, but her dynamics often seem musically arbitrary. Of these two I slightly prefer Berganza, but when the trophies are awarded I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of Cherubinosity to relish the young-at-heart Patti who, after half a century of singing everything from "Home, sweet home" to _La Traviata, _and for everyone from Rossini to Abe Lincoln, catches me off guard with an interpretation I couldn't have imagined sitting at my desk looking at the score. What would Mozart have thought of it? It's conceivable that the answer would have surprised us.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Sir, I question the appropriateness of using the word "pe**y" for our august group 😜


I had no idea that pe*vy wasn't within our pu*view. (Of course I'm not confessing to anything...)


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I must first qualify my choice of Berganza by stating that I think it's absolutely incredible that we have a recording of Patti singing at all, even if the technical limitations of the recording can give us only a glimpse of what she must have sounded like. This performance is, to some extent, _hors concours_ and not really comparable to those of Berganza and Bartoli, so I discounted it fromy my assessment and made my choice between the two others.

I like Bartoli more here than I usually do. I asume this is an early recording as the voice is fresher and she indulges less in those infuriating mannerisms that so annoy me now. However I just liked Berganza better. I even quite liked the way she begins some of her phrases with a sort of white tone. Berganza for me.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I know the Patti, but it will be interesting to listen to it and compare with the others. I don't know Berganza's singing of this (although I knew she sang the part). This is superbly stylish and suave singing, but does it need more characterisation?

I know Bartoli from the Barenboim recording and she (possibly along with Von Stade) is my favourite (at least in their respective complete recordings). I already prefer the orchestra and conducting on her version. However, she isn't as smooth and lyrically perfect as Berganza, but there is a freshness about this one that encapsulates the gasp of youthful love (or perhaps lust?) Berganza sings it better, Bartoli interprets the role better. Bartoli would be my choice between the two.

Now Patti is disadvantaged by age (both of the recording and herself by the time technology allowed her to be captured). I have a feeling that this isn't the best transfer of the aria (it sounds like distant Nimbus as opposed to Marston's cleaned up restoration - I know, I'm a geek!) Patti is the only one to have a fully integrated head and chest voice and making allowances for her age (would she have swooped like that in her prime?) this is superbly sung and there is plenty of playful interpretation too. However, it's clear this is a singer past their best.

I have to go with Bartoli as she gives us the best balance between playful charm, technical poise and taste.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I know the Patti, but it will be interesting to listen to it and compare with the others. I don't know Berganza's singing of this (although I knew she sang the part). This is superbly stylish and suave singing, but does it need more characterisation?
> 
> I know Bartoli from the Barenboim recording and she (possibly along with Von Stade) is my favourite (at least in their respective complete recordings). I already prefer the orchestra and conducting on her version. However, she isn't as smooth and lyrically perfect as Berganza, but there is a freshness about this one that encapsulates the gasp of youthful love (or perhaps lust?) Berganza sings it better, Bartoli interprets the role better. Bartoli would be my choice between the two.
> 
> ...


I am always happy when I make ya'll worry over the winner. I owe Woodduck for suggesting Patti as it has been interesting.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I have wondered before, what would happen, if people sang Mozart more in the style of Bellini, with "tempo rubato". Well, in this particular case (Adelina Patti), it is just weird.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I am always happy when I make ya'll worry over the winner. I owe Woodduck for suggesting Patti as it has been interesting.


It sure has and it's wonderful to have three that are all so good and yet so different.

N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

There was a time when recordings were plentiful, that established singers would record a recital of *Mozart Arias*. That meant they had “arrived,” and would show off their vocal wears by singing some of the loveliest arias ever composed for the soprano voice (sometimes mezzos). And the most difficult to sing properly. Alas, that is no longer possible. My favorites were those by Kiri Te Kanawa, Margaret Price and Kathleen Battle. Just sayin’.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

MAS said:


> There was a time when recordings were plentiful, that established singers would record a recital of *Mozart Arias*. That meant they had “arrived,” and would show off their vocal wears by singing some of the loveliest arias ever composed for the soprano voice (sometimes mezzos). And the most difficult to sing properly. Alas, that is no longer possible. My favorites were those by Kiri Te Kanawa, Margaret Price and Kathleen Battle. Just sayin’.


EMI collected most (if not all) of Schwarzkopf's Mozart aria recordings she made on 78s and for recital albums for a bumper CD and that would have to be my favourite Mozart album. I also liked the ones by Terfel and Studer. Lisette Oropesa released a Mozart concert arias disc recently that is worth hearing, so it is still possible. For me the sign that a singer has "arrived" is when they release a Verdi arias disc. That is a custom that is also still possible, but, alas, not necessarily desirable.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Being a fan of Adelina Patti, I'm happy that she's getting some votes. As Tsaraslondon says, her recording isn't really in competition with the others, not necessarily because it's inferior but because it's so different - a horse of a different concourse. The 1905 recording seems not very good even for its time, though the transfer may not be good either, and so what we hear is in a way a ghost of the soprano Verdi had some thirty years earlier called perhaps the finest singer in the world. But that ghost had a pure and perfectly produced voice still capable of the finest degree of expressiveness, and in this aria, as elsewhere in her recordings, every moment of music is made to mean something. Despite being well-executed and not without musical value, the renditions of Berganza and Bartoli are barely differing variants of the Standard Version, pleasant and forgettable. _Voi che sapete_ - "You who know..." We who _think_ we know how music is supposed to sound are in for some surprises when we dip into the archives and discover recordings made by someone born in 1843, the year Verdi's _I Lombardi_ and Wagner's _Der Fliegende Hollander_ were premiered. 

I love being taken far back in time, hearing the voices of people whose world was so different from mine. That we have the opportunity and privilege of glimpsing and perhaps resonating with that lost world through those who lived in it is thrilling to me. Patti, Battistini, Caruso and others were not only singers but people, and their personalities live on in their beautiful, free, expressive voices in a way that we seldom encounter in the work of singers today. They remind us, in the midst of our world's travails, that it can be good to be human!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Being a fan of Adelina Patti, I'm happy that she's getting some votes. As Tsaraslondon says, her recording isn't really in competition with the others, not necessarily because it's inferior but because it's so different - a horse of a different concourse. The 1905 recording seems not very good even for its time, though the transfer may not be good either, and so what we hear is in a way a ghost of the soprano Verdi had some thirty years earlier called perhaps the finest singer in the world. But that ghost had a pure and perfectly produced voice still capable of the finest degree of expressiveness, and in this aria, as elsewhere in her recordings, every moment of music is made to mean something. Despite being well-executed and not without musical value, the renditions of Berganza and Bartoli are barely differing variants of the Standard Version, pleasant and forgettable. _Voi che sapete_ - "You who know..." We who _think_ we know how music is supposed to sound are in for some surprises when we dip into the archives and discover recordings made by someone born in 1843, the year Verdi's _I Lombardi_ and Wagner's _Der Fliegende Hollander_ were premiered.
> 
> I love being taken far back in time, hearing the voices of people whose world was so different from mine. That we have the opportunity and privilege of glimpsing and perhaps resonating with that lost world through those who lived in it is thrilling to me. Patti, Battistini, Caruso and others were not only singers but people, and their personalities live on in their beautiful, free, expressive voices in a way that we seldom encounter in the work of singers today. They remind us, in the midst of our world's travails, that it can be good to be human!


I posted a video on Youtube comparing Patti and Stignani. The research was fun and they were so different!!!!


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

The Conte said:


> Now Patti is disadvantaged by age (both of the recording and herself by the time technology allowed her to be captured). I have a feeling that this isn't the best transfer of the aria *(it sounds like distant Nimbus as opposed to Marston's cleaned up restoration* - I know, I'm a geek!)
> 
> N.


The recording being used is a fan copy of the Nimbus Prima Voce recording - This is the original - Can't say for certain what effect, if any, it might have.

I've been searching through the Marston Records catalog and have yet to find even a single sample release that is available -









Marston Records | Home


Home page of Marston Records. New release, promotions, and the latest information of the company.




www.marstonrecords.com










Interesting article -









Adelina Patti: 19th Century's Diva and Queen of Voice


Dubbed by many as “one of the greatest sopranos of all time”, the opera singer Adelina Patti took the mid-19th century by storm with her unmatched coloratura singing and exquisite tone of voice. A child prodigy at birth, she would then rise to fame and rank among some of the most well known...




www.taminoautographs.com





"The first recordings of Patti’s voice were made in about 1890 on phonograph cylinders for Thomas Marshall in New York. Neither the recorded title, nor their number are known. The recordings are unfortunately lost in time. Patti cut more than 30 disc gramophone recordings of songs and operatic arias at her Welsh home in 1905 and 1906 for the Gramophone & Typewriter Company. By then she was aged in her 60s, with her voice well past its prime after a busy operatic career stretching all the way back to 1859.

Despite her age, the sublime purity of her tone and the smoothness of her legato line remained uniquely impressive, compensating to some extent for the weakening of her breath control. The records also display a lively singing personality as well as a surprisingly strong chest voice and a mellow timbre. Her trill remains wonderfully fluent and accurate and her diction is excellent. Overall her discs have a charm and musicality that give us a hint of why, at her peak, she commanded $5,000 a night.

Patti’s recorded legacy included a number of songs and arias from the following operas: Le Nozze di Figaro, Don Giovanni, Faust, Martha, Norma, Mignon and La sonnambula. The records were produced by the Gramophone & Typewriter Company (the forerunner of EMI Records) and were issued in the United States by the Victor Talking Machine Company.

Patti’s piano accompanist, Landon Ronald, wrote of his first recording session with the diva, “When the little (gramophone) trumpet gave forth the beautiful tones, she went into ecstasies! She threw kisses into the trumpet and kept on saying, ‘Ah! Mon Dieu! Maintenant je comprends pourquoi je suis Patti! Oh oui! Quelle voix! Quelle artiste! Je comprends tout!’ (Ah! My Lord! Now I understand why I am Patti! Oh yes! What a voice! What an artist! I understand everything!) Her enthusiasm was so naïve and genuine that the fact that she was praising her own voice seemed to us all to be right and proper.”

By most accounts of Patti’s singing during her prime, the sheer quality of her vocal timbre was astoundingly beautiful. Lilli Lehmann, herself perhaps the greatest Wagnerian soprano of the age and later a noted pedagogue, wrote: “Adelina Patti was the greatest Italian singer of our time. Everything about her singing was absolutely beautiful, impeccable and pure; her voice resonated like a bell and left the impression of continued ringing long after its final vibrations.”


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> The recording being used is a fan copy of the Nimbus Prima Voce recording - This is the original - Can't say for certain what effect, if any, it might have.
> 
> I've been searching through the Marston Records catalog and have yet to find even a single sample release that is available -
> 
> ...


I can't remember the exact quote I used in my speech on her but it went something like this: upon hearing herself on disc the first time she exclaimed something to the effect that " That is what I sound like? No wonder I am the greatest soprano in the world. I can hear why people call me that now!" She wore enough diamonds in concerts that they would be worth $20 million today, shaming the Kardashians.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

When we have a recording of Adelina Patti, we shouldn't question it's quality or how she sings. For me she is out of competition. When We compared Battistini with more contemporary baritones, conditions were less unequal. 
So, choosing between Berganza and Bartoli, I vote for the latter. It's not because the former is worse. For me Cecilia embodies the joy of life, and Mozart's music is the best to show it. 
P.S. Christa Ludwig told that she stopped singing Cherubino after approximately 35, because, she said, it looks weird after that.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Excerpt from a Christa Ludwig master class - 






Greg Sandow -- Christa Ludwig Master Classes


Christa Ludwig taught master classes at Carnegie Hall, and the young singers she worked with made me despair for classical music. All had embarked on professional careers -- but most didn't really know what they were doing.



gregsandow.com





A striking blonde mezzo minced almost like a little girl onstage, bending shyly forward, giving up her strength...

_Here's one more example of how poorly prepared these otherwise earnest and willing singers were. One of them -- the mezzo who bent forward -- bobbed her head in time with many notes she sang. When Ms. Ludwig told her she shouldn't do that, her amazed answer was, "No one ever told me that before!"

Ms. Ludwig, in exactly the same pleasant, forceful tone she used with the mezzo who was afraid to take liberties, said, "Well, everyone should tell you." 

And here's the problem. Like the other singers, this mezzo wasn't a student. In fact, she was about to make her debut in a major role with the Los Angeles Opera. She'd been to music school, had been in several opera-company apprentice programs -- where nobody, apparently, ever told her that she bobbed her head in rhythm. 

Should we blame these poor singers, or their teachers?_


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Shaughnessy said:


> _nobody, apparently, ever told her that she bobbed her head in rhythm. _


Well, even the singer who created the role of Fiordiligi did that


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> Well, even the singer who created the role of Fiordiligi did that


I read this anecdote too. Mozart knew this habit of hers and joked by his music.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

MAS said:


> Adelina Patti was a law unto herself during much of her career, bu I, for one, don’t like the way she pulls and pushes the phrases in this charming aria, distorting the line. One or two phrases, fine, but the whole aria? No! The voice is a delight, the tone pure and almost virginal.
> 
> Cecilia Bartoli’s performance comes, I assume, from the Barenboim 1991 complete recording. It’s early Bartoli and, thus free from many of the mannerisms she assumed in later career, when she became Cecilia Bartoli! It is sung simply, as Mozart should be sung and I like the tempo. There is a hint of toughness in the voice even at this remove, though it’s not totally inappropriate for Cherubino.
> 
> ...


Suzanne Danco


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Francasacchi said:


> Suzanne Danco


No, I’d want a purer voice.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

MAS said:


> No, I’d want a purer voice.


Danco has a pure and vibrant, voice, and it is refreshing to hear a soprano in the part.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

BBSVK said:


> Well, even the singer who created the role of Fiordiligi did that


although Bach would have done it earlier


hammeredklavier said:


> There was also a comment calling this "Baroque (head)Banging", but it's gone now:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Shaughnessy said:


> _When Ms. Ludwig told her she shouldn't do that, her amazed answer was, "No one ever told me that before!"_


_"Don't wobble."
"Now that's something no one ever told me before!"_


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Patti may take a few liberties with the music but she is just so touching that I can't help but vote for her.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> Patti may take a few liberties with the music but she is just so touching that I can't help but vote for her.


 I vaguely remember when someone last took a few liberties with me.....😜


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I vaguely remember when someone last took a few liberties with me.....😜


Were you as touching as Patti?


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