# Beethoven String Quartets



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm working my way through my cycle of them, at what point do they lean towards the romantic vs the classical?

Just curious...they are great so far! Very lively.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Also, I never realized just how much material of his was influenced by the Classical period!


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

There are entire courses and texts on the 16 Beethoven SQs. To put things VERY broadly.......

The six Op 18 quartets are more or less in the classical tradition but with Beethoven stretching the rules a little. The Op 59 Razumovsky Quartets were the first quartets Beethoven really broke with tradition by expanding the forms to an almost symphonic length and complexity. The Harp and Serioso Quartets are similar in that regard. The last five quartets are so different from anything that came before it (and some say after it) that Beethoven seems to be almost using an otherworldly musical language.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

This course of 24 lectures is the best resource for analyzing all 16 of Beethoven's Quartets (both the music itself and the historical context). Wait until the course goes on sale and its a LOT less expensive:

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/string-quartets-of-beethoven.html


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I just skipped ahead to No. 7. Definitely sounds more Romantic and like the Beethoven I know and love!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The Op. 18 quartets aren’t yet Beethoven in full flower, but they are works of genius. If Beethoven had died writing nothing else, they would still be ranked high in the repertoire.

But with Op. 59, Beethoven changed the game entirely. As Joseph Kerman writes, meeting these quartets is like meeting real individuals, each with his or her “distinctive physiognomy.” There had never been quartets like these, and probably never will be again.

The final quartets are something else entirely, something difficult to write about (although lots of people try!) Many find they take few listens to absorb, but they can be listened to for a lifetime.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I could have listened to what was next up, No. 5 for it is also Op. 59. I'll go back after No. 7 is finished and listen to No. 5.

Edit: Nevermind, No. 5 is an opus 18.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Razumovsky Quartets No. 7 in F Major & No. 8 in E minor. The turning point. Beethoven has begun Romanticism in music.

Listen to the third movement adagio of String Quartet No. 7 in F Major and see if you don't agree.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Why do I hear a crackling sound, like paper being crumbled on SQ no 8 starting on the second movement? Is that in the recording or is something wrong with my set up?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Why do I hear a crackling sound, like paper being crumbled on SQ no 8 starting on the second movement? Is that in the recording or is something wrong with my set up?


You sure that's not the 2nd movement of the 7th String Quartet? At an early performance, the cellist crumpled up his score, threw it on the floor, and stomped on it because of the theme he was given to open the movement. Could be a re-enactment!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

KenOC said:


> You sure that's not the 2nd movement of the 7th String Quartet? At an early performance, the cellist crumpled up his score, threw it on the floor, and stomped on it because of the theme he was given to open the movement. Could be a re-enactment!


It was definitely the 8th. It could be somehow related to that though, some kind of similar event.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I enjoy nos. 10 and 11 practically equally. The flourish at the end of the 10th 1st mov is amazing. The 'Serioso' is fairly short but not without action and drama and has some memorable passages, also. 

What can I say about the last five that hasn't been said already? It may not even be music.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

beetzart said:


> I enjoy nos. 10 and 11 practically equally. The flourish at the end of the 10th 1st mov is amazing. The 'Serioso' is fairly short but not without action and drama and has some memorable passages, also.
> 
> What can I say about the last five that hasn't been said already? It may not even be music.


Still reading too much into the last 5, eh?


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Nowhere near! Just repeating the copyist's words on the film Eroica, seemed apt, that was all.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I seem to have a deaf spot where Beethoven's quartets are concerned. I think Schubert's later quartets are phenomenal - but I just cant get into Beethoven quartets.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

stomanek said:


> I seem to have a deaf spot where Beethoven's quartets are concerned. I think Schubert's later quartets are phenomenal - but I just cant get into Beethoven quartets.


That's ok! 

Bate's 12th is really blowing my mind right now! (See what I did there, haha!)


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I think these late quartets are my favorite, extremely touching, complex, and unique! Really love these.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think these late quartets are my favorite, extremely touching, complex, and unique! Really love these.


Masterpieces from Mr. Beethoven.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think these late quartets are my favorite, extremely touching, complex, and unique! Really love these.


Ludwig's got you now. You'll never look back!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

beetzart said:


> Ludwig's got you now. You'll never look back!


These late quartets are exactly what I want from music! I think my next purchase will be a cycle of Beethoven's piano sonatas.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Also, I never realized just how much material of his was influenced by the Classical period!


Beethoven is considered to be a Composer of the Classical Period, as is Schubert. The generation of Composers that followed them were the First of the Romantic Period


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Captainnumber36 said:


> These late quartets are exactly what I want from music! I think my next purchase will be a cycle of Beethoven's piano sonatas.


You have found your zenith in music then? I know many will disagree but I can't see beyond these late quartets. Schubert's last three are good, very good but still nowhere near to Beethoven.

The Alban Berg cycle is very good.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

beetzart said:


> You have found your zenith in music then? I know many will disagree but I can't see beyond these late quartets. Schubert's last three are good, very good but still nowhere near to Beethoven.
> 
> The Alban Berg cycle is very good.


Still promoting Beethoven's late string quartets I see  i think they are hardly the zenith of the form, and see them, like I metioned before, as half-realized works. I think the work that came closest to that mystical quality that some like to read into Ludwig's late works especially #14 is Ravel's String Quartet, which I think is his best work in general. There is the ethereal quality more fully realized rather than vaguely suggested.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> These late quartets are exactly what I want from music! I think my next purchase will be a cycle of Beethoven's piano sonatas.


Glad you are enjoying the quartets. The piano sonatas, IMO, are the very heart of Beethoven's work because the piano was his personal voice. He was a great improvisor and at the forefront of piano technique in his day, so the piano was, I think, the most direct conduit to his cutting edge thinking at any point in his life.

By the way, it is traditional to use opus numbers in referring to both the string quartets and piano sonatas - if you want to be sure that most readers will know which work you are referring to without digging out their scores.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> Still promoting Beethoven's late string quartets I see  i think they are hardly the zenith of the form, and see them, like I metioned before, as half-realized works. I think the work that came closest to that mystical quality that some like to read into Ludwig's late works especially #14 is Ravel's String Quartet, which I think is his best work in general. There is the ethereal quality more fully realized rather than vaguely suggested.


No, Beethoven's late quartets are not half-realized, just difficult for some people (ahem) to assimilate. The Ravel is a lovely work but hearing it as a fuller realization of Beethoven is, frankly, bizarre. In fact, the only coherent sentence containing the names of both Beethoven and Ravel would probably be: "Beethoven and Ravel were composers," because there is little more specific to connect them.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> No, Beethoven's late quartets are not half-realized, just difficult for some people (ahem) to assimilate. The Ravel is a lovely work but hearing it as a fuller realization of Beethoven is, frankly, bizarre. In fact, the only coherent sentence containing the names of both Beethoven and Ravel would probably be: *"Beethoven and Ravel were composers," because there is little more specific to connect them*.


I think Gaspard de la Nuit is in a way an imitation of Beethoven's style- not musically, but technically. In Gaspard de la Nuit, Ravel changes piano writing and perfects his tyle just like Beethoven did- except Beethoven had 32 + (Bagatelles, plus miscallenous piano works) tries, whereas Ravel wrote less than 5 solo piano works. But as for string quartets- we can't compare those. They're so different but all 17 quartets are great!


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## stejo (Dec 8, 2016)

My favorite, Opus 127 in E flat with Quartetto Italiano, an old Philips recording from 1968.
Lovely cello playing from Franco Rossi. 
Digitally remastered in ADD , lovely playing and close, distinct recording without harsh distant.


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## gHeadphone (Mar 30, 2015)

Great call on the Great courses, they are of a very high standard generally. A lot of the great courses are available on audible and you can try 1 audiobook for free so id recommend trying this route. Note not every course is available in every location so its best to check before signing up.



Olias said:


> This course of 24 lectures is the best resource for analyzing all 16 of Beethoven's Quartets (both the music itself and the historical context). Wait until the course goes on sale and its a LOT less expensive:
> 
> http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/string-quartets-of-beethoven.html


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> No, Beethoven's late quartets are not half-realized, just difficult for some people (ahem) to assimilate. The Ravel is a lovely work but hearing it as a fuller realization of Beethoven is, frankly, bizarre. In fact, the only coherent sentence containing the names of both Beethoven and Ravel would probably be: "Beethoven and Ravel were composers," because there is little more specific to connect them.


I was exaggerating, I find Beethoven's late quartets very simple in its language, like Mozart's simplicity, but it does suggest a lot more which makes them profound. Ravel's quartet also has a mystical quality, especially in the first movement (at least to me), and it was more directly stated in the music. Surely you are not saying Beethoven's late quartets are only as deep as it is at face value?  If not, then it suggesting more, maybe a lot more, but not have eloquence to state it directly, but maybe it is better that way, because it could have resulted in failure. Unlike his middle period, I believe Beethoven was playing it safe, in my opinion. With his hearing loss, it must have been a struggle to even have them written at all.

P.s. Those that do find more in his late quartets than I do must think he is God 

P.s.s. Those late quartets might be the epitomes of musical understatement. Say less and suggest more than what you are saying.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Totally agree on the his piano sonatas as his most personal voice. i would say in the No. 32 second movement, he did actually succeed in reaching the sublime more eloquently and directly. Didn't he say he had nothing more to say after that Sonata?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

“Beethoven's last piano sonata is a monument to his conviction that solutions to the problems facing humanity lie ever within our grasp if they can be recognized for what they are and be confronted by models of human transformation. Among Beethoven's instrumental works Op. 111 assumes a special position as an 'effigy of the ideal', in Schiller's formulation; and every adequate performance must reenact something of this process, reaching as it does beyond the merely aesthetic dimension of the moral and ethical.” --Kinderman


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

"solutions to the problems facing humanity lie ever within our grasp if they can be recognized for what they are and be confronted by models of human transformation" What?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Magnum Miserium said:


> "solutions to the problems facing humanity lie ever within our grasp if they can be recognized for what they are and be confronted by models of human transformation" What?


Through Beethoven's last piano sonata, we see his conviction that we can change life on Earth and live in paradise utilizing models which focus on transforming the human mindset to a more spiritual being is how I took it.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

"utilizing models which focus on transforming the human mindset to a more spiritual being" What?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Magnum Miserium said:


> "utilizing models which focus on transforming the human mindset to a more spiritual being" What?


models are what we use to approach a problem; they are the means of the solution. Utilizing such models which focus on changing the human mindset is represented in Beethoven's last piano Sonata.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

The "Moonlight" sonata
The "Appassionata" sonata
The "Utilizing a Model" sonata

I'm a 21st century man / but I don't wanna be here


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Magnum Miserium said:


> "solutions to the problems facing humanity lie ever within our grasp if they can be recognized for what they are and be confronted by models of human transformation" What?


Hey, if it wins somebody tenure, that's OK by me! :lol:


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Magnum Miserium said:


> "solutions to the problems facing humanity lie ever within our grasp if they can be recognized for what they are and be confronted by models of human transformation" What?


In the second movement of Op. 111, Beethoven starts with a fairly simple theme and then proceeds to transform it into something more elaborate and sublime. This variation process offers us a model for thinking through our own problems and coming up with new approaches and solutions. That's what I think Kinderman is pointing out, in the passage quoted by KenOC.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Bettina said:


> In the second movement of Op. 111, Beethoven starts with a fairly simple theme and then proceeds to transform it into something more elaborate and sublime. This variation process offers us a model for thinking through our own problems and coming up with new approaches and solutions. That's what I think Kinderman is pointing out, in the passage quoted by KenOC.


Like your summary of the movement in musical terms. I can do without Kinderman's corny quotation.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Like your summary of the movement in musical terms. I can do without Kinderman's corny quotation.


I don't personally find it corny. Music is powerful, and he see's that in Beethoven's music and the man himself.

But to each his own, indeed!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Critics tend to attach more meaning to works of art than the artist intended. I read somewhere (can't find the quote now), the famous film director, Akira Kurosawa, saying he never knew a critic that didn't attach false meanings to his work. I think the same can go for music composers. Of course some may like the attention.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> These late quartets are exactly what I want from music! I think my next purchase will be a cycle of Beethoven's piano sonatas.


Good luck finding a single set that does all of them justice 

Maybe the Richard Goode set is the best example of a whole set without flaws, where every rendition is very good-to-superb, but it also leans a little on the "Classical" side and, while technically it is often unimpeachable, it also isn't as passionate and tension-filled as some other pianists. Still, you can't go wrong with it. Fischer has renditions of the 14th, 21st, 23rd, 29th, that I consider peerless, and the 30th, which is close to peerless -- that would all be hard to be without. Perhaps Pollini's (collected over several periods of his career) or Arrau's is the best overall, even if with those there is a rendition here and there that doesn't work as well as the others.

If I were you, I would just sign up for Spotify and make a playlist of all the best/favorite renditions of each


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Critics tend to attach more meaning to works of art than the artist intended. I read somewhere (can't find the quote now), the famous film director, Akira Kurosawa, saying he never knew a critic that didn't attach false meanings to his work. I think the same can go for music composers. Of course some may like the attention.


It has the potential to become annoying and pretentious, but is not the point of art to attach meaning to it? Of course there is what the artist intended, but there is also what the listener/viewer perceives which is important as well.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Best sonata cycle? Schiff, runners-up Goodyear and Buchbinder. Oh yeah, Gilels and Kempff. Lots more, gotta have them all!

"The badge of a properly evolved listener is the extent of his or her Beethoven sonata library."


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

AfterHours said:


> Good luck finding a single set that does all of them justice
> 
> Maybe the Richard Goode set is the best example of a whole set without flaws, where every rendition is very good-to-superb, but it also leans a little on the "Classical" side and, while technically it is often unimpeachable, it also isn't as passionate and tension-filled as some other pianists. Still, you can't go wrong with it. Fischer has renditions of the 14th, 21st, 23rd, 29th, that I consider peerless, and the 30th, which is close to peerless -- that would all be hard to be without. Perhaps Pollini's (collected over several periods of his career) or Arrau's is the best overall, even if with those there is a rendition here and there that doesn't work as well as the others.
> 
> If I were you, I would just sign up for Spotify and make a playlist of all the best/favorite renditions of each


I'm enjoying my Tokyo set.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm enjoying my Tokyo set.


The sets I mentioned were meant for his Piano Sonatas 

However, for his Quartets, yes Tokyo is great. Alban Berg is the pinnacle (for the late quartets) in my opinion, and it's hard to imagine them being topped. It's been a long time since I've revisited the earlier and middle period quartets so I don't have a preference on those at this time.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Best sonata cycle? Schiff, runners-up Goodyear and Buchbinder. Oh yeah, Gilels and Kempff. Lots more, gotta have them all!
> 
> "The badge of a properly evolved listener is the extent of his or her Beethoven sonata library."


All great choices too. Kempff and Gilels in particular would be two of my very next choices from the preferences I listed.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

AfterHours said:


> The sets I mentioned were meant for his Piano Sonatas
> 
> However, for his Quartets, yes Tokyo is great. Alban Berg is the pinnacle (for the late quartets) in my opinion, and it's hard to imagine them being topped. It's been a long time since I've revisited the earlier and middle period quartets so I don't have a preference on those at this time.


Oops! Excuse me. That's what I get for skimming over your post and making assumptions without looking into the details to grasp the concept you were trying to get across!


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Oops! Excuse me. That's what I get for skimming over your post and making assumptions without looking into the details to grasp the concept you were trying to get across!


No worries :tiphat:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

OK, recommendation from left field. There is a recently released Beethoven quartet cycle complete, that has very fine performances in better-than-usual recordings. Since it's new (to me), I'm listening to it in preference to the Alban Berg and Tokyo cycles. It's not likely to displace the Takacs cycle in my affections, but it's very very good.

The price? (wait for it) 99 cents! You really need to get this download.

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Co...&qid=1492577340&sr=1-1-mp3-albums-bar-strip-0


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

KenOC said:


> OK, recommendation from left field. There is a recently released Beethoven quartet cycle complete, that has very fine performances in better-than-usual recordings. Since it's new (to me), I'm listening to it in preference to the Alban Berg and Tokyo cycles. It's not likely to displace the Takacs cycle in my affections, but it's very very good.
> 
> The price? (wait for it) 99 cents! You really need to get this download.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Co...&qid=1492577340&sr=1-1-mp3-albums-bar-strip-0


I like collecting physical CD copies...


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

KenOC said:


> OK, recommendation from left field. There is a recently released Beethoven quartet cycle complete, that has very fine performances in better-than-usual recordings. Since it's new (to me), I'm listening to it in preference to the Alban Berg and Tokyo cycles. It's not likely to displace the Takacs cycle in my affections, but it's very very good.
> 
> The price? (wait for it) 99 cents! You really need to get this download.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Co...&qid=1492577340&sr=1-1-mp3-albums-bar-strip-0


It is very good. And you should get it before they raise the price.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

KenOC said:


> OK, recommendation from left field. There is a recently released Beethoven quartet cycle complete, that has very fine performances in better-than-usual recordings. Since it's new (to me), I'm listening to it in preference to the Alban Berg and Tokyo cycles. It's not likely to displace the Takacs cycle in my affections, but it's very very good.
> 
> The price? (wait for it) 99 cents! You really need to get this download.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Co...&qid=1492577340&sr=1-1-mp3-albums-bar-strip-0


Geez, that's 1.4 cents per movement. What a rip-off!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I recently explored my way through, in numerical order, the sixteen quartets as performed by the Tokyo String Quartet, because I picked up the 9 CD box set rather at a bargain. The music itself is not cheap.









Though I've been listening to these quartets for over five decades now, I still am amazed and enraptured by the music. Each one continues to surprise, and I shall continue to explore. I have several sets of these masterworks that I have yet to go through in a patterned numerical order. It was truly exhilarating to do so with the Tokyo set, so I'm looking forward to trying this again, soon.

Those final quartets are, indeed, otherworldly. The kind of music that seems impossible to have written. Yet Beethoven did it. I guess that's why he's Beethoven!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It has the potential to become annoying and pretentious, but is not the point of art to attach meaning to it? Of course there is what the artist intended, but there is also what the listener/viewer perceives which is important as well.


Absolutely. The fact that a work of art suggests meanings never considered by the artist is evidence of a rich artistic sensibility and a work of enduring value. Great art isn't propaganda, but an appeal to the imagination. The more profound the work, the more complex its implications for the receptive mind.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

For me, at times, there is nothing more musically wholesome and satisfying then those all embracing and strangely syncopated chords that open the E flat Op. 127 quartet.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

beetzart said:


> For me, at times, there is nothing more musically wholesome and satisfying then those all embracing and strangely syncopated chords that open the E flat Op. 127 quartet.


A curious bit of trickery on Beethoven's part. Why does Op. 127 get less attention than the other late quartets? It's magnificent in every way, and has been a favorite of mine since I first heard it fifty years ago. That slow movement is sheer rapture - but the whole work is replete with that astonishing late-Beethoven consistency of inconceivable inventiveness, always surprising yet inevitable...

Yes, this quartet must be spoken about. Attention must be paid!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Eh, who says Op. 127 gets less credit? Not in my house!


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

beetzart said:


> For me, at times, there is nothing more musically wholesome and satisfying then those all embracing and strangely syncopated chords that open the E flat Op. 127 quartet.


Yes! The ecstasy when these chords return later in the movement is even greater. :tiphat:


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> A curious bit of trickery on Beethoven's part. Why does Op. 127 get less attention than the other late quartets? It's magnificent in every way, and has been a favorite of mine since I first heard it fifty years ago. That slow movement is sheer rapture - but the whole work is replete with that astonishing late-Beethoven consistency of inconceivable inventiveness, always surprising yet inevitable...
> 
> Yes, this quartet must be spoken about. Attention must be paid!


Maybe the 13th (especially w/ Grosse Fuge), the 14th and 15th already consume too much attention for any mere mortal to try and come to terms with


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Eh, who says Op. 127 gets less credit? Not in my house!


It simply gets little mention compared to the others. We who are wise do not commit this injustice.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Can anyone recommend any decent books on Beethoven's quartets either all 16 or just the late ones, please?


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> It simply gets little mention compared to the others. We who are wise do not commit this injustice.


I sometimes just sit here and shake my head in astonishment when I hear these quartets. I'll be honest sometimes I do cry, I'm only human. Yet what is it about Beethoven that keeps drawing me back to him? I can go through periods of listening to Bach and Brahms et al yet it is always Beethoven that I return to.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

beetzart said:


> I sometimes just sit here and shake my head in astonishment when I hear these quartets. I'll be honest sometimes I do cry, I'm only human. Yet what is it about Beethoven that keeps drawing me back to him? I can go through periods of listening to Bach and Brahms et al yet it is always Beethoven that I return to.


Beethoven pressed the right buttons for you for sure I have a personal policy of not allowing a piece get to me too much, and read more into it than warranted. I was able to get away from my idolatry of Mozart, but still appreciate him.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> Beethoven pressed the right buttons for you for sure I have a personal policy of not allowing a piece get to me too much, and read more into it than warranted. I was able to get away from my idolatry of Mozart, but still appreciate him.


I must say that this statement astounds me. Are you a member of some ascetic order? Do you name St. Augustine as your founder - Augustine, who confessed that he strove not to enjoy the beauty of music too much, lest it distract him from concentrating on the worship of the deity and lead his soul to perdition?

Yes, God forbid we should love music profoundly and read unwarranted things into it (get thee behind me, Satan!), or lose our objectivity for a moment and feel that nothing could be more wonderful.

Might you by any chance have the same policy of caution toward sex? Now _there_ it would make some sense!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I must say that this statement astounds me. Are you a member of some ascetic order? Do you name St. Augustine as your founder - Augustine, who confessed that he strove not to enjoy the beauty of music too much, lest it distract him from concentrating on the worship of the deity and lead his soul to perdition?
> 
> Yes, God forbid we should love music profoundly and read unwarranted things into it (get thee behind me, Satan!), or lose our objectivity for a moment and feel that nothing could be more wonderful.
> 
> Might you by any chance have the same policy of caution toward sex? Now _there_ it would make some sense!


Yes! Same attitude toward sex. I try not to indulge myself in anything. Art is an illusion:angel:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

beetzart said:


> I sometimes just sit here and shake my head in astonishment when I hear these quartets. I'll be honest sometimes I do cry, I'm only human. Yet what is it about Beethoven that keeps drawing me back to him? I can go through periods of listening to Bach and Brahms et al yet it is always Beethoven that I return to.


When people say that the evaluation of music is completely subjective and nothing more than personal taste, I have to doubt whether they really know these works or the greater context of musical history in which they appear. In the course of this discussion I've listened again to Op. 127, and although I've known the piece for half a century, I am again knocked sideways by the power of invention, the sheer fertility of imagination and corresponding variety of expression, combined with the structural intuition which disciplines this superabundance of ideas into a perfect form. One might shed tears out of sheer wonder.

A thread elsewhere asks whether Bach's Mass in B-Minor is "the pinnacle of Western music." I remember asking a violinist friend many years ago whether Beethoven's late quartets were "the greatest music ever written." He just smiled and said "maybe they are." I don't think we need to worry about what's greater than what. But to the things Beethoven achieved in these last works, I think it's safe to say there is no parallel, and that to perceive and acknowledge that is neither idolatry nor mere "taste."


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

KenOC said:


> "Beethoven's last piano sonata is a monument to his conviction that solutions to the problems facing humanity lie ever within our grasp if they can be recognized for what they are and be confronted by models of human transformation. Among Beethoven's instrumental works Op. 111 assumes a special position as an 'effigy of the ideal', in Schiller's formulation; and every adequate performance must reenact something of this process, reaching as it does beyond the merely aesthetic dimension of the moral and ethical." --Kinderman


I attended a presentation where Bill Kinderman interspersed readings from Mann's _Dr. Faustus_--a chapter where a character lectures on the Opus 111 sonata--with his own lecture on that sonata, and then closed by performing it. A stimulating evening!

On another occasion, I heard him discuss Beethoven's Diabelli Variations, after a performance of the play _33 Variations_, for which he served as a consultant. And I've taken a class on opera from his wife Katherine Syer, also a musicologist. Good people.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Phil loves classical said:


> Yes! Same attitude toward sex. I try not to indulge myself in anything. Art is an illusion:angel:


My attitude is quite different. As somebody who is highly sensitive to music as well as to touch, I'm fascinated by the altered states of consciousness - the trance states - that I can experience when I allow others to give me pleasure. Such euphoric experiences can occur in many different contexts: it can be triggered by Beethoven pushing my buttons with his string quartets, or by somebody pushing my buttons in a more physical sense.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

beetzart said:


> Can anyone recommend any decent books on Beethoven's quartets either all 16 or just the late ones, please?


My two favorite books on Beethoven's quartets are:

Joseph Kerman, _The Beethoven Quartets_

Lewis Lockwood, _Inside Beethoven's Quartets: History, Performance, Interpretation_


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2017)

Bettina said:


> My attitude is quite different. As somebody who is highly sensitive to music as well as to touch, I'm fascinated by the altered states of consciousness - the trance states - that I can experience when I allow others to give me pleasure. Such euphoric experiences can occur in many different contexts: it can be triggered by Beethoven pushing my buttons with his string quartets, or by somebody pushing my buttons in a more physical sense.


You talk about yourself as if you are an accordion,luckily there is a lot of free air that wants to be resonating and the altered state is nothing less than fully living in the presence.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> When people say that the evaluation of music is completely subjective and nothing more than personal taste, I have to doubt whether they really know these works or the greater context of musical history in which they appear. In the course of this discussion I've listened again to Op. 127, and although I've known the piece for half a century, I am again knocked sideways by the power of invention, the sheer fertility of imagination and corresponding variety of expression, combined with the structural intuition which disciplines this superabundance of ideas into a perfect form. One might shed tears out of sheer wonder.
> 
> A thread elsewhere asks whether Bach's Mass in B-Minor is "the pinnacle of Western music." I remember asking a violinist friend many years ago whether Beethoven's late quartets were "the greatest music ever written." He just smiled and said "maybe they are." I don't think we need to worry about what's greater than what. But to the things Beethoven achieved in these last works, I think it's safe to say there is no parallel, and that to perceive and acknowledge that is neither idolatry nor mere "taste."


If I allowed myself to indulge in idolatry, i would say Mozart understood the mind of God over Beethoven. I'd put Mozart's Piano Concerto 27, and his Fantasia K. 475 and Beethoven's own Piano Sonata 32 above his late string quartets in terms of profundity. Beethoven music points to the devine, while Mozart music flowed from the devine. I know I might have started a religious war here


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

For all have erred and fallen short of the glory of Mozart.:devil:


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Phil loves classical said:


> Beethoven music points to the divine, while Mozart music flowed from the divine.


Nicely put. But even if true, I think each stance has its own distinct magnificence.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Phil loves classical said:


> For all have erred and fallen short of the glory of Mozart.:devil:


All kidding aside, Mozart wrote some pretty fair music given that he was a relatively minor composer. :devil:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> If I allowed myself to indulge in idolatry, i would say Mozart understood the mind of God over Beethoven. I'd put Mozart's Piano Concerto 27, and his Fantasia K. 475 and Beethoven's own Piano Sonata 32 above his late string quartets in terms of profundity. Beethoven music points to the devine, while Mozart music flowed from the devine. I know I might have started a religious war here


What do "the divine" and "profundity" mean to you, someone who says "I have a personal policy of not allowing a piece get to me too much, and read more into it than warranted"?

As I said, "I don't think we need to worry about what's greater than what," much less what's more "divine." I make no claims for anyone's relationship to the mind of God (whatever that is), merely for their compositional prowess and powers of invention. There is no music I know of in which those qualities are more astonishingly manifested than Beethoven's late works. I welcome any informed challenge to that perspective.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Personally, I don't think one can compare Beethoven's Piano Sonatas (such as the #32) qualitatively with his quartets. IMO, they are almost entirely different experiences. My guess is that if they could Pet Scan my brain while listening to the #32, one area would light up in a major way. If it was one of the late quartets, several areas would be flashing all over the place!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> What do "the divine" and "profundity" mean to you, someone who says "I have a personal policy of not allowing a piece get to me too much, and read more into it than warranted"?
> 
> As I said, "I don't think we need to worry about what's greater than what," much less what's more "divine." I make no claims for anyone's relationship to the mind of God (whatever that is), merely for their compositional prowess and powers of invention. There is no music I know of in which those qualities are more astonishingly manifested than Beethoven's late works. I welcome any informed challenge to that perspective.


Good question. Like I said, I got over my idolatry of Mozart in the past, and no longer make those kind of assertions. In my view now, there are MANY works equal to the best of those of Beethoven and Mozart. There is no work better than Bartok's Music for Celesta Percussion and Strings. I welcome any informed challenge to that perspective.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> Good question. Like I said, I got over my idolatry of Mozart in the past, and no longer make those kind of assertions. In my view now, there are MANY works equal to the best of those of Beethoven and Mozart. There is no work better than Bartok's Music for Celesta Percussion and Strings. I welcome any informed challenge to that perspective.


How long has it been since your Uncle Béla has passed away? I know you two were close.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

KenOC said:


> All kidding aside, Mozart wrote some pretty fair music given that he was a relatively minor composer. :devil:


I didn't think Mozart wrote much in the relative minor.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

amfortas said:


> I didn't think Mozart wrote much in the relative minor.


The slow movement of Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 23 is in the relative minor.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

amfortas said:


> I didn't think Mozart wrote much in the relative minor.


Or that he was a minor.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

DaveM said:


> Or that he was a minor.


Forty niner. And his daughter, Clementine.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> Good question. Like I said, I got over my idolatry of Mozart in the past, and no longer make those kind of assertions. In my view now, there are MANY works equal to the best of those of Beethoven and Mozart. There is no work better than Bartok's Music for Celesta Percussion and Strings. I welcome any informed challenge to that perspective.


Saying "this is what I would say _if_ I said such things" _is_ saying them. 

I think you're misrepresenting what I actually say (and am careful to avoid saying), and we are not speaking the same language. When I said, "I am again knocked sideways by the power of invention, the sheer fertility of imagination and corresponding variety of expression, combined with the structural intuition which disciplines this superabundance of ideas into a perfect form," you responded with generalized value-laden terms like "better" and "best" and "divine" and "profound." I have my own hierarchy of musical values, but I think that only a discussion of _particular_ artistic values is really meaningful. Talk of what's "best" never gets anywhere, until it gets down to talk of what a thing is best _at._

I have never heard any composer pack a greater variety and density of original thought and expression into strikingly original yet fully confident, concise structures within a single musical medium than Beethoven does in his late quartets. In this they are unprecedented not only in classical music, but in Beethoven's own music. It's what, above all, makes them unique. This is not some fantastic opinion I've just come up with. It's the common understanding, and the reason why, after two centuries, these works still baffle and amaze people and reduce some of us to incoherent babbling about divinity and profundity.

Not me, though. And that isn't because I've taken your vow of aesthetic chastity.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Highlights from outside the last five quartets: The coda in the 1st movement of Op. 74 'Harp'. I have collected various versions of Beethoven's String Quartets and I enjoy listening to see how the violin tackles those arpeggios on Op. 74.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Saying "this is what I would say _if_ I said such things" _is_ saying them.
> 
> I think you're misrepresenting what I actually say (and am careful to avoid saying), and we are not speaking the same language. When I said, "I am again knocked sideways by the power of invention, the sheer fertility of imagination and corresponding variety of expression, combined with the structural intuition which disciplines this superabundance of ideas into a perfect form," you responded with generalized value-laden terms like "better" and "best" and "divine" and "profound." I have my own hierarchy of musical values, but I think that only a discussion of _particular_ artistic values is really meaningful. Talk of what's "best" never gets anywhere, until it gets down to talk of what a thing is best _at._
> 
> ...


I disagree on saying what I actually meant :lol: or meaning what I actually said. 

I'm not even sure what were arguing about? Probably two different things :tiphat:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

My latest set played by :Takács Quartet will arrive between 9.30-13.00 
:cheers:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Pugg said:


> My latest set played by :Takács Quartet will arrive between 9.30-13.00
> :cheers:


Beethoven? The Takacs rules!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven? The Takacs rules!


I let you know.
( Not that I don't trust you)


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

Pugg said:


> My latest set played by :Takács Quartet will arrive between 9.30-13.00
> :cheers:


Spoil yourself and start with no 15  The Holy Thanksgiving movement is their finest work imo, perhaps the finest string quartet playing i know of. Its just hypnotic, rather than the smooth flow of others these guys "play against each other"(cant describe any other way), sometimes it makes me feel like my very mind is being pulled in different directions. They have a wholly different interpretation and in this work i gratefully approve.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

These String Quartets by Beethoven, artistically are they the finest achievement by humanity? I wonder if Bach's cantatas are the pinnacle of music and they are exceptional in many wondrous ways? Much of Bach I would put on par with Beethoven but who else? Brahms? I remember the first time I heard his 1st Symphony. I was at school and my music teacher put it on and I couldn't believe what I was hearing and fell in love with Brahms straight away. But is he close to Beethoven, not really but he is a great composer. I just tend to think Beethoven is a step to far for any composer after him to contemplate being on par with. Although Schubert comes close.


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

beetzart said:


> These String Quartets by Beethoven, artistically are they the finest achievement by humanity? I wonder if Bach's cantatas are the pinnacle of music and they are exceptional in many wondrous ways? Much of Bach I would put on par with Beethoven but who else? Brahms? I remember the first time I heard his 1st Symphony. I was at school and my music teacher put it on and I couldn't believe what I was hearing and fell in love with Brahms straight away. But is he close to Beethoven, not really but he is a great composer. I just tend to think Beethoven is a step to far for any composer after him to contemplate being on par with. Although Schubert comes close.


Reality is primarily a matter of perception  For you and me, jugding by your previous posts, there is nothing, music or otherwise, that could rival the wonder of those works. They allmost climb above art and music to become a physical manifestation of the ideals and character to one of the most brilliant men who ever lived, the way some says they've seen god in a beam of light that was somehow more than just light. His quartets are as such to me, music that surpasses the reasonable qualities of music itself, a miracle of our species transformed to sound.

For others the finest work is Debussy's 'La mer' or a beatles song, that doesnt make either of our beliefs incorrect in any way. Reality is perception, so reality is a mostly just caleidoscope, a singular light divided in a prism  We're all right and none are wrong. Only science is factual.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Schumanniac said:


> Spoil yourself and start with no 15  The Holy Thanksgiving movement is their finest work imo, perhaps the finest string quartet playing i know of. Its just hypnotic, rather than the smooth flow of others these guys "play against each other"(cant describe any other way), sometimes it makes me feel like my very mind is being pulled in different directions. They have a wholly different interpretation and in this work i gratefully approve.


Just arrived, and now I am confused , normally I start at disc 1.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Schumanniac said:


> Reality is primarily a matter of perception  For you and me, jugding by your previous posts, there is nothing, music or otherwise, that could rival the wonder of those works. They allmost climb above art and music to become a physical manifestation of the ideals and character to one of the most brilliant men who ever lived, the way some says they've seen god in a beam of light that was somehow more than just light. His quartets are as such to me, music that surpasses the reasonable qualities of music itself, a miracle of our species transformed to sound.
> 
> For others the finest work is Debussy's 'La mer' or a beatles song, that doesnt make either of our beliefs incorrect in any way. Reality is perception, so reality is a mostly just caleidoscope, a singular light divided in a prism  We're all right and none are wrong. Only science is factual.


Love your post. I used to feel this hierarchy like Beezart in terms of quality of musical works, and was determined to find what I felt would be the top. For me Mozart was at the top. But getting into modern classical music it changed my whole perception, and I see a lot great music being on equal footing, from different forms of expression and criteria.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Schumanniac said:


> Reality is primarily a matter of perception  For you and me, jugding by your previous posts, there is nothing, music or otherwise, that could rival the wonder of those works. They allmost climb above art and music to become a physical manifestation of the ideals and character to one of the most brilliant men who ever lived, the way some says they've seen god in a beam of light that was somehow more than just light. His quartets are as such to me, music that surpasses the reasonable qualities of music itself, a miracle of our species transformed to sound.
> 
> For others the finest work is Debussy's 'La mer' or a beatles song, that doesnt make either of our beliefs incorrect in any way. Reality is perception, so reality is a mostly just caleidoscope, a singular light divided in a prism  We're all right and none are wrong. Only science is factual.


Wow, what a great post, totally agree. I too feel that Beethoven was one of the greatest humans ever. I am listening to his Op. 18 No.6 4th mov and even before he was 30 this music was a little glint of what would follow. The adagio at the start and throughout is utterly heartbreaking. I think they are beyond reasonable comprehension, all 16 of them. There are not many works in this genre by other composers that come close to the last 5. Haydn's SQ Op. 76 No. 61 'Fifths' is very impressive and I expect influenced Beethoven to a degree along with Mozart's' Dissonance' quartet. But only Schubert showed genius enough in his last three quartets to attempt to catch up with Beethoven. Beethoven's music is like a beam of light that can never be caught up with, though. I know he struggled to compose fluidly so his life must have been a perpetual struggle to get this music onto the score. We can only thank him that he persevered.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

beetzart said:


> Wow, what a great post, totally agree. I too feel that Beethoven was one of the greatest humans ever. I am listening to his Op. 18 No.6 4th mov and even before he was 30 this music was a little glint of what would follow. The adagio at the start and throughout is utterly heartbreaking. I think they are beyond reasonable comprehension, all 16 of them. There are not many works in this genre by other composers that come close to the last 5. Haydn's SQ Op. 76 No. 61 'Fifths' is very impressive and I expect influenced Beethoven to a degree along with Mozart's' Dissonance' quartet. But only Schubert showed genius enough in his last three quartets to attempt to catch up with Beethoven. Beethoven's music is like a beam of light that can never be caught up with, though. I know he struggled to compose fluidly so his life must have been a perpetual struggle to get this music onto the score. We can only thank him that he persevered.


Your awe in Beethoven fills me with awe. Sorry to keep following on this, but I find it fascinating. Is he the only composer whose music ever speaks to you at that level? Pugg's idolizing of Renee Fleming is the only equal I see on this site. I knew someone who idolized Madonna, and had her music playing all the time. Not to say Madonna and Beethoven is the same. Like I said, I used to have this obsession with Mozart, and felt he knew all my thoughts and emotions, and wrenched my heart and tormented my soul, but was able to get out of it. I found it rather unhealthy.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Your awe in Beethoven fills me with awe. Sorry to keep following on this, but I find it fascinating. Is he the only composer whose music ever speaks to you at that level? Pugg's idolizing of Renee Fleming is the only equal I see on this site. I knew someone who idolized Madonna, and had her music playing all the time. Not to say Madonna and Beethoven is the same. Like I said, I used to have this obsession with Mozart, and felt he knew all my thoughts and emotions, and wrenched my heart and tormented my soul, but was able to get out of it. I found it rather unhealthy.


What are you inplying ? Of course any obsession is an unhealthy thing. Do you still like Mozart?


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I hold Bach in very high esteem along with Schubert and Brahms. But nothing can prepare you for these quartets. I have always loved Beethoven right from being a 9 yr old. There is something about him that stirs such strong emotions. I do like a lot of other music including Radiohead, Muse, Supergrass amongst others but I always go back to Beethoven.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Traverso said:


> What are you inplying ? Of course any obsession is an unhealthy thing. Do you still like Mozart?


Yes, still like Mozart, and still find some of his music rousing, but without the addiction/infatuation. I'm implying it may have been something else other than music. The girl I knew that was obsessed with Madonna would dress like her, had posters of her all over the place, and had her music blasting day and night.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

beetzart said:


> I hold Bach in very high esteem along with Schubert and Brahms. But nothing can prepare you for these quartets. I have always loved Beethoven right from being a 9 yr old. There is something about him that stirs such strong emotions. I do like a lot of other music including Radiohead, Muse, Supergrass amongst others but I always go back to Beethoven.


Well, as long as you're at peace, then ok. Just wasn't sure if it was an unhealthy obsession, when you mention you are reduced to tears more than once.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Yes, still like Mozart, and still find some of his music rousing, but without the addiction/infatuation. I'm implying it may have been something else other than music. The girl I knew that was obsessed with Madonna would dress like her, had posters of her all over the place, and had her music blasting day and night.


A Madonna complex ,often a matter of escapisme.

when I am not longer able to listen to music is a sad thing but I won't be lost.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Traverso said:


> A Madonna complex ,often a matter of escapism.
> 
> when I am not longer able to listen to music is a sad thing but I won't be lost.


:lol::lol::lol:


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

beetzart said:


> Can anyone recommend any decent books on Beethoven's quartets either all 16 or just the late ones, please?


135 pages (coïncidence?)

I haven't read it yet but I'm sure it would bring you even more to astonishment, awe, admiration, devotion, amazement, memorable moments, musically wholesome moments......

just summing up a selection of adjectives you used to describe your feelings concerning the string quartets


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## Jacred (Jan 14, 2017)

Pugg said:


> Just arrived, and now I am confused , normally I start at disc 1.


Now that's the right way to go at things.  First to last.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Razumovskymas said:


> 135 pages (coïncidence?)
> 
> I haven't read it yet but I'm sure it would bring you even more to astonishment, awe, admiration, devotion, amazement, memorable moments, musically wholesome moments......
> 
> ...


Thank you for the recommendation, and perhaps I should dig out my old thesauruses.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Jacred said:


> Now that's the right way to go at things.  First to last.


I did go with Schumanniac suggestion, but later today I start with disc 1.
( The suggestion was good one I must add.)


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## HistoryJoe (Mar 12, 2019)

Olias said:


> This course of 24 lectures is the best resource for analyzing all 16 of Beethoven's Quartets (both the music itself and the historical context). Wait until the course goes on sale and its a LOT less expensive:
> 
> http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/string-quartets-of-beethoven.html


The first time I looked at this it was $200 and today it's on sale for $30 for the download version. Very good so far. Thanks for the head's up!


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