# Men and Women conductors/concertmasters



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

We all know that the demographic ratio between men and women in professional conducting is obvious. Why is women outnumbered by men? Is it because of tradition? This also apply to concertmasters. In the business or political worlds more and more women are in senior leadership positions. Is the classical music world too 'classic'? I am perplexed.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Until recent years there were hardly any women conductors of note, but this has been changing 
lately , and more and more have been achieving international careers .
Among them : Marin Alsop, of the Baltimore symphony and Sao Palo orchestra of Brazil ,
Joann Falletta of the Buffalo Philharmonic , Simone Young, who recently stepped down as music director of the Hamburg St. opera and its orchestra after 10 years , where Kent Nagano will succeed her, the Hamburg State Philharmonic , (Australian ) ,
Susanna Malkki of Finland , recently appointed music director of the Helsinki Philharmonic and who recently made her acclaimed Met debut conducting "L'Amour de Loin " by Kaaia Saariho (only the second opera by a woman composer done by the Met ! ), Lithuanian Mirga Grazynite-Tyla , recently appointed music director of the City of Birmingham symphony in England , Anne Manson, first woman ever to conduct the Vienna Philharmonic , to name only several . 
The glass ceiling is gradually shaking for women conductors . There are a number of women concertmasters in major orchestras, such as the Detroit symphony , but I can't recall any others offhand . 
Simone Young has recently completed a Bruckner symphony cycle with the Hamburg State Philharmonic on if I remember correctly, the Oehms label, which has been well received . This is the first one by a woman conductor .


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

superhorn, thanks for your insights. Good to see many women are moving into leadership positions. We hope in the foreseeable future, we can buy recordings with women conducting as common as their male counterparts.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The question is why did it take women so long to become conspicuous in the classical music professions?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Even the Vienna Philharmonic has a woman concertmaster now!

And for something different...


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

I think it should be considered whether conducting simply tends to appeal to males more than females. Very often I hear of efforts to put more women on the podium and celebrate women conductors, which I think is a wonderful idea. While I will not dispute that sexism exists in the industry, it might be prudent to evaluate how many women go into conducting vs. men in the first place, as one possible explanation for the disparity. As an analogy, look at the nursing field. There are disproportionate numbers of women as compared to men; I don't believe it's due to sexism, but rather that nursing tends to appeal more to women for some reason. 
Where concertmasters are concerned, that is something that I believe involves much more sexism than conducting. A lot of the concertmasters you see in professional orchestras are men that have been there for decades, dating back to when women weren't even allowed in orchestras, or built their resumes in that era. Not just concertmasters, but individual players throughout orchestras worldwide. The Berlin Philharmonic and Vienna Philharmonic are prime examples. As to whether the same degree of discrimination exists today, I'm not sure. It's certainly not like it was, but has probably not completely left.
All of this to say, sexism exists in the music industry and it needs to be squashed, but I feel like some issues merit a bit more thought before coming to a conclusion of "sexism" right off the bat.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Gordontrek said:


> I think it should be considered whether conducting simply tends to appeal to males more than females. Very often I hear of efforts to put more women on the podium and celebrate women conductors, which I think is a wonderful idea. While I will not dispute that sexism exists in the industry, it might be prudent to evaluate how many women go into conducting vs. men in the first place, as one possible explanation for the disparity. As an analogy, look at the nursing field. There are disproportionate numbers of women as compared to men; I don't believe it's due to sexism, but rather that nursing tends to appeal more to women for some reason.


The issue is more that there is a long-held concept that certain fields are appropriate for men and women. Mirga Grazinyte-Tyla tells the story of how a woman and her children came up to her after a concert in Los Angeles and told her how great it was for her daughters to see that a woman could be a conductor as they never thought that it was an option. Similarly when Sarah Willis, the only female in the Berlin Phil brass section, tells of how, when she was in school and had to choose a second instrument, she picked the horn, only to have the teacher, a woman, tell her that women didn't play the horn. I suspect that it will take a few generations for those types of subtle selections to disappear.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Oh, who's counting. Lets not get our underalls in knots. The pendulum shifted some time ago (exact date escapes). For those who want to pursue, avenues are open. Talent and desire rule, not gender.

Iona Brown and Jeanne Lamon have been orchestra directors for many years. And according to violinist.com contributors, Jorja Fleezanis, Nurit Bar-Josef, Yoonshin Song, Juliana Athayde, Susanna Perry Gilmore, Jessica Hung, Jill Levy, Lisa Morrison, Jessica Matthaes, Borislava Iltcheva, Laura Park Chen, Lauren Roth, Lenora Leggatt, YuMi Hwang-Williams, Dayna Anderson, Isabella Lippi, Denise Couch-Tarrant, Carole Cowan, Diana Cohen, DeAnn Letourneau, Erica Kieswetter, Margaret Batjer, Charlotte Merkerson, Marta Kirk, Elizabeth Pitcairn, Terrie Baune, Dawn Harms, Sarah Kwak, Laura Hilgemann Miller, Aimee Kreston, Gloria Justen, Karen Johnson, Kay Stern, Robin Mayforth, Zofia Glashauser, Masako Yanagita, Amilia Chan, Katherine Winterstein, Akemi Takayama, Ruth Lenz, and others, are or have been Concertmasters.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Since I've been in Tennessee, the Nashville Symphony has had associate conductors who were women. Karen Lynne Deal went from there to direct the Illinois Symphony. Kelly Corcoran replaced her and also directed the symphony chorus. She conducted the concerts in the park series and did a great job. She is now artistic director of her own group, Intersection. I just found out they're playing tonight. Rats; I'm missing it. Zeneba Bowers is also artistic director of the ALIAS chamber group. So women have been pretty active around here.

The concertmaster for a long time was a woman; I forgot her name. But the Frist family bought a Strad for her to play, which was nice of them.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

The transition to gender-neutral views of musical roles is a long process, but it is working. A man _or _woman can "find themselves" in anything really, or even feel like they're crossing a bridge. Just some roles have not completely reached that yet. Violin has been a woman's instrument since the Baroque era (think of Vivaldi teaching strings to the girls at the orphanage he worked at), but flute took a long while, until the 20th century. Conducting will take the longest perhaps, but as soon as a large number of women start "seeing themselves" as conductors, rather than feeling that they are doing something _outside _the norm, that is when the stereotypes truly fall apart. A woman can be a woman as a conductor, not as a "woman trying to be a man," if you get me.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

... and, as so often, it seems to work from the bottom up, i.e. the big 10+ orchestras will take the longest.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Still waiting for the first great female conductor.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

pcnog11 said:


> We all know that the demographic ratio between men and women in professional conducting is obvious. Why is women outnumbered by men? Is it because of tradition? This also apply to concertmasters. In the business or political worlds more and more women are in senior leadership positions. Is the classical music world too 'classic'? I am perplexed.


Great musicians will emerge regardless of sex. Hard to keep great talent down.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Gordontrek said:


> I think it should be considered whether conducting simply tends to appeal to males more than females. Very often I hear of efforts to put more women on the podium and celebrate women conductors, which I think is a wonderful idea. While I will not dispute that sexism exists in the industry, it might be prudent to evaluate how many women go into conducting vs. men in the first place, as one possible explanation for the disparity. As an analogy, look at the nursing field. There are disproportionate numbers of women as compared to men; I don't believe it's due to sexism, but rather that nursing tends to appeal more to women for some reason.
> Where concertmasters are concerned, that is something that I believe involves much more sexism than conducting. A lot of the concertmasters you see in professional orchestras are men that have been there for decades, dating back to when women weren't even allowed in orchestras, or built their resumes in that era. Not just concertmasters, but individual players throughout orchestras worldwide. The Berlin Philharmonic and Vienna Philharmonic are prime examples. As to whether the same degree of discrimination exists today, I'm not sure. It's certainly not like it was, but has probably not completely left.
> All of this to say, sexism exists in the music industry and it needs to be squashed, but I feel like some issues merit a bit more thought before coming to a conclusion of "sexism" right off the bat.


"Sexism" exist but to what degree. I think it varies from one part of the world to another. Stereotyping women is a historical issue since pre-historical times. I think the glass ceiling is breaking and there will be more women in the classical music leadership role. The world is changing faster than we can catch up...will there be a all-female orchestra in the future? Let's see....


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## Daniel Atkinson (Dec 31, 2016)

Just a thought which may or may not be controversial:

With the whole sexism thing and inclinations in traditional social/sexual norms, why don't people *prefer* woman conductors, composers, singers, etc. and outside of music. It seems like a contradiction that has been allowed to happen


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Becca said:


> ... and, as so often, it seems to work from the bottom up, i.e. the big 10+ orchestras will take the longest.


Maybe the top 10+ are more vulnerable than others. In other words, there are more risk they exposed to when they take more women.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Not a matter of people "preferring" their music being performed by men. Great talent emerges. It is a force of nature and it is sexless.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Becca said:


> The issue is more that there is a long-held concept that certain fields are appropriate for men and women.


Very true; but I still see a disparity in the number of male vs. female students going into conducting _today,_ despite much progress being made in recent years in eliminating the male-only stigma. Not many teachers today will discourage a female student from pursuing a certain career because it's "a man's job." Rather than being explicitly stated, it seems to be floating in the back of peoples' minds, if you know what I mean. But I do believe that men and women tend to prefer certain occupations over others, and this may have at least some bearing on the comparative lack of women in conducting. To what degree, if any, I have no idea. I would be interested to see original research on the subject.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

pcnog11 said:


> "Sexism" exist but to what degree. I think it varies from one part of the world to another. Stereotyping women is a historical issue since pre-historical times. I think the glass ceiling is breaking and there will be more women in the classical music leadership role. The world is changing faster than we can catch up...will there be a all-female orchestra in the future? Let's see....


It's difficult to say to what degree. Unless you're a Vulcan, you can't get into the minds of the orchestra management and find out if they harbor a bias against women, or if they're completely fair and will pick whoever is best for the job regardless. As I brought up before, the amount of women vs. men in the music field in the first place should be taken into account, as well as the social stigmas that Becca brought up. 
And it does vary from place to place, and always has. In the 20th century, American orchestras seemed to be more accommodating to female musicians than most European orchestras. If you watch Solti's Chicago Symphony, there are a fair amount of female musicians, at least for the time. Karajan's Berlin Phil and Vienna Phil, on the other hand, were completely devoid of women; women weren't even allowed until the 1990s (there was an earlier attempt to hire a female clarinetist, but it was met with wide opposition). 
Don't mention an all-female orchestra to a nerd like me who obsesses over minutiae! Now I want to go and list all my favorite female orchestral musicians (like Sarah Willis) and arrange them into an orchestra. With Marin Alsop at the podium, of course. Should I do this, or my homework??


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Vaneyes said:


> Oh, who's counting. Lets not get our underalls in knots. The pendulum shifted some time ago (exact date escapes). For those who want to pursue, avenues are open. Talent and desire rule, not gender.
> 
> Iona Brown and Jeanne Lamon have been orchestra directors for many years. And according to violinist.com contributors, Jorja Fleezanis, Nurit Bar-Josef, Yoonshin Song, Juliana Athayde, Susanna Perry Gilmore, Jessica Hung, Jill Levy, Lisa Morrison, Jessica Matthaes, Borislava Iltcheva, Laura Park Chen, Lauren Roth, Lenora Leggatt, YuMi Hwang-Williams, Dayna Anderson, Isabella Lippi, Denise Couch-Tarrant, Carole Cowan, Diana Cohen, DeAnn Letourneau, Erica Kieswetter, Margaret Batjer, Charlotte Merkerson, Marta Kirk, Elizabeth Pitcairn, Terrie Baune, Dawn Harms, Sarah Kwak, Laura Hilgemann Miller, Aimee Kreston, Gloria Justen, Karen Johnson, Kay Stern, Robin Mayforth, Zofia Glashauser, Masako Yanagita, Amilia Chan, Katherine Winterstein, Akemi Takayama, Ruth Lenz, and others, are or have been Concertmasters.


Very wise words Vaneyes, I give you:


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Same reason there are fewer women in IT jobs, or women truck drivers, or women plumbers, as well as fewer men hair stylists or men nurses. Some activities naturally appeal more to one sex and less to the other, and no amount of social policies will ever change that.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I can accept the hair stylist from that list maybe plumbers also (although I'm not sure that is something anyone ever aspires to!) but having both worked and taught in the IT field, I can definitely say that it is not true. As to nursing, I doubt it and think that it is changing, albeit very slowly.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Same reason there are fewer women in IT jobs, or women truck drivers, or women plumbers, as well as fewer men hair stylists or men nurses. Some activities naturally appeal more to one sex and less to the other, and no amount of social policies will ever change that.


My mechanic is a female.

Thanks for all the replies. After I post this topic, there were no replies and all out of a sudden, all of you poured out your thoughts. I think there are several level of thinking amount all those reply to this post.

1. Historical or traditional factors that influence women's role in a professional orchestra, there are trends in countries that are more quicker in adapting female than others. Interesting enough, those slow adopters are in country that have female political leaders earlier than those quick adopters.

2. Some jobs could fit a certain gender better than others - I heard about female double bass players but yet to see one on stage.

3. No matter what leadership role we are talking about, gender should not be the consideration, it is the ability, passion and vision that the leader provides will make a difference to an organization.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Re: 2 - I can't speak for other orchestras but I do know that the Berllin Phil. has a regular woman substitute for the double bass.

Another issue is that there is still a lot of misogynistic attitudes in some levels of the music world. Consider the case of Jorma Panula, the very well-known conducting teacher for such names as Esa-Pekka Salonen, Sakari Oramo and Osmo Vanska...

_In March 2014, Panula caused controversy in a Finnish television interview with remarks that denigrated the ability of women to conduct particular composers, and that women were suited to conducting music that was "feminine enough" such as Debussy, but that they were unsuited for conducting Bruckner. He stated that "women [conductors]… Of course they are trying! Some of them are making faces, sweating and fussing, but it is not getting - only worse!... It's not a problem - if they choose the right pieces. If they take more feminine music... This is a purely biological question."_ Wikipedia)

Needless to say that caused a considerable uproar with one of his ex-students, Barbara Hannigan, really taking him to task over it.

Panula is far from being the only one, the RLPO's chief conductor, Vasily Petrenko, has also managed to stuff his baton in his mouth. That type of attitude will continue to put some limits on the success of women conductors for so long as Petrenko et.al. have influence over who gets invited to guest conduct an orchestra.


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## GodotsArrived (Jan 12, 2017)

Well my local band, which is England's second most renowned and equal best (the CBSO, for anyone still wondering) and which has produced the present Music Directors of the Berlin Philharmonic and the Boston Symphony among others is now led by a woman (Mirga Grazinyte-Tyla) and her appointment, while lauded as musically thrilling, really didn't raise much of a stir in the media simply because of her sex (the odd perfunctory note aside.) Given the footsteps in which she's following and given her first two gigs at Symphony Hall, Vienna and Berlin may be a matter of time!


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## GodotsArrived (Jan 12, 2017)

Addendum: Those interested can listen to Mirga's Proms debut with the CBSO here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b086403m


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## satoru (May 29, 2014)

Well, we are moving in the right direction, but the tradition was as such that even the high voice ranges were covered by males (boys and castratos) and it's only 1997 that Vienna Philharmonic seen female musician as permanent members, 1982 for Berlin Philharmonic. Still long way to go, I afraid.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Becca said:


> Re: 2 - I can't speak for other orchestras but I do know that the Berllin Phil. has a regular woman substitute for the double bass.
> 
> Another issue is that there is still a lot of misogynistic attitudes in some levels of the music world. Consider the case of Jorma Panula, the very well-known conducting teacher for such names as Esa-Pekka Salonen, Sakari Oramo and Osmo Vanska...
> 
> ...


Well, should we say men can only conduct pieces that are 'masculine enough'? People who make comments like Panula try to pigeon hole women into a small subset and frame it to their advantage because conducting is a male dominated world. If there are pieces that are 'feminine enough', why were women not allowed to conduct them back in Debussy's days? How can one claim that this is a purely biological question.....what kind of scientific studies support this claim? If they exist, what scientific bodies would approve it? He is only a teacher, not a scientist! He may not realize that his attitude will eventually determine his altitude.

Having women to conduct in major professional orchestras is an innovation to make better music, just like music needs to be creative and innovative. Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Handel.....they are all innovators. Have we learn anything from these composers/innovators by conducting their music? What would you say?


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## GodotsArrived (Jan 12, 2017)

Becca said:


> ...the RLPO's chief conductor, Vasily Petrenko, has also managed to stuff his baton in his mouth.


Now there's a bit of well-judged phallic symbolism if ever I saw any! Perhaps the pre-eminence of the baton (and their attendant inability to self-fellate, Petrenko style) explains why some visionaries believe women are unsuited to conduct. Oh well, there's one born every minute...


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The Vienna Philharmonic has been the most conservative and traditional orchestra for a very long time, but things are beginning to change even there , and several women have been seen recently playing at concerts by them.
There were several in the orchestra at their traditional January 1 Johann Strauss concert conducted by Gustavo Dudamel . In order to become a member of the Vienna Philharmonic, you must first be a member of the Vienna State opera orchestra . All the members of the Philharmonic are members of the opera orchestra , but not all members of the opera orchestra are members of the Philharmonic, and they are a large pool of musicians , with enough to perform operas at the Staatsoper when the Vienna Philharmonic is playing its concerts at the Musikverin or on tour . 
Apparently, there are more women in the opera orchestra than the Philharmonic , and some of these women may just be substitutes at the Philharmonic concerts who are members of the opera orchestra ..


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

...Specifically a person has to be a member of the VSO orchestra for 3 years before they can apply to join the VPO.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

hpowders said:


> The question is why did it take women so long to become conspicuous in the classical music professions?


A: Sexism in almost every field of endeavor. Decades ago, Dame Myra Hess, one of the foremost harpsichord players in the world, said in her youth she had been systematically discouraged from composition, and earlier, Fanny Mendelssohn had also been constrained because of her gender. Her brother Felix had several times remarked that his sister was equally, if not more talented than him as composer and musician. She had some renown as a pianist in her time, and had composed a fair number of works before her untimely death, but lived musically in the shadow of her brother. But times are changing, and that is a good thing.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

I'm sure there are many reasons for the predominance of men on the podium: societal norms, institutional sexism, lack of self-confidence. It is good to see those limitations gradually fading away, albeit not fast enough.

Women conductors are not new, however. I bring to your attention my old friend Iris LeMare.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-iris-lemare-1261255.html

I knew her through bird-watching rather than music, and she wore her musical attainments lightly. Now and then, her affection for Adrian Boult would show through, and I recall her lovely back-hander regarding Benjamin Britten: "Ben was quite promising. On the viola". And a diplomatic assessment of Jacqueline Du Pre: "Jacqui could be ... difficult".

Women could and did make it in the CM business in earlier generations, but it took someone like Iris: utterly determined, remarkably talented and charming in the best possible sense. 
There is a fascinating article about her in _The Musical Times_, Vol. 93, No. 1316 (Oct., 1952), pp. 444-446, by Ernest Bradbury.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Well, thanks for the opinions on this post. They are all very though provoking. Women are not allowed in leadership position is not a new issue. Ironically, why are women soloists (say Beethoven's 9th) came on stage first before the male soloists? It seems the leadership role is reversed. Is the 'lady first' mentality a bit hypocritical? Maybe I being sarcastic!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The conductor always comes and leaves last, even when it's a woman conductor with male soloists.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

hpowders said:


> The question is why did it take women so long to become conspicuous in the classical music professions?


Oink, Oink, Oink


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Good question. I would imagine, (but could be wrong), that many decision makers in the classical music business are left leaning politically. Either way, they should be ashamed. 

We have had women guest conductors at the ISO. Always as good as anyone else.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I would imagine, (but could be wrong), that many decision makers in the classical music business are left leaning politically.


I wouldn't bet on it! The boards of many orchestras are made up of those who donate large sums of money and they aren't always the most progressive. And, of course, it is the boards who appoint the day-to-day management.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Becca said:


> I wouldn't bet on it! The boards of many orchestras are made up of those who donate large sums of money and they aren't always the most progressive. And, of course, it is the boards who appoint the day-to-day management.


You are correct - IME, orchestra BoDS tend to be quite conservative - often business, banking leaders in community....


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

I've read orchestra players can get quite sulky and uncooperative if they don't accept a conductor for whatever reasons - personality, temper, organizational style, etc. 

I wonder if some older (probably) players might harbor misogynistic tendencies and resist taking direction from female conductors. I don't know how this would be known or proven, but I imagine it exists. I'm guessing this might make its way very subtly into the decision-making process.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

In the 1960's, the New York Philharmonic had a reputation for being cranky and uncooperative with guest conductors they didn't respect. In those days, except for the harpist, the orchestra was all male.

I guess for a guest conductor back in that time, it would have been like being a teacher on the first day of school, given a "bad" class.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Still waiting for the first great female conductor.


Would Marin Alsop at least be close? If you are looking for a female Karajan or Solti, that might be problematic. Women probably had very little opportunity to be conductors in the heyday of orchestras, and now that the ranks are dwindling, the competition must be even more cut-throat.

Similarly, I wonder if an orchestra can afford to be "cranky and uncooperative" these days, when there are lots of people who might be happy to have their jobs.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

JAS said:


> Would Marin Alsop at least be close? If you are looking for a female Karajan or Solti, that might be problematic. Women probably had very little opportunity to be conductors in the heyday of orchestras, and now that the ranks are dwindling, the competition must be even more cut-throat.
> 
> Similarly, I wonder if an orchestra can afford to be "cranky and uncooperative" these days, when there are lots of people who might be happy to have their jobs.


Yes. In the 1960's, classical music concert going was still in its "Golden Age". Now, classical concert attendance is down and many of the wealthy supporters of The Arts have passed on, not to be replaced.

You are right. Orchestra musicians are lucky to have a job and many who do are hanging on tenuously. They can't afford to have an "attitude" for any reason.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

From a business standpoint, orchestras or classical music need new marketing ideas to keep it alive. Many orchestras have marketing programs toward a younger generation and that is why Lang Lang and Yundi Li are so popular before they are established as masters. It used to be the other way around. 

Even concert soloists have their own websites, chat rooms, facebook or twitter pages. I think as the information age develops, classical music are going through a evolution and see if the fittest will survive. 

Let's make sure classical music do not follow the seven most costly words to any entity - IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN DONE THIS WAY!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> In the 1960's, the New York Philharmonic had a reputation for being cranky and uncooperative with guest conductors they didn't respect. In those days, except for the harpist, the orchestra was all male.
> 
> I guess for a guest conductor back in that time, it would have been like being a teacher on the first day of school, given a "bad" class.


Orchestras could be pretty tough back in the days of the podium tyrants...conductors had virtually dictatorial powers...Stokowski, Reiner, Toscanini, Rodzinski, Szell, etc, etc....musicians developed pretty thick skins, and they didn't tolerate fools. NYPD, CSO, VPO were all known as pretty tough outfits...murder on wimpy or ineffective guest conductors.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Regarding women holding positions in major orchestras-
I just returned from Chicago, where I heard the Symphony give two great concerts - Rite of Spring, and Petrushka -

for the the large works - 30 violins were used - 16-14; *22 out of 30 violinists* were women, and by far the largest component was Asiatic women; including associate concertmistress [CM for Sacre], and one assistant CM. the remaining string sections had substantial female representation - not quite as much as the violins - 4/10 violas; 3/10 celli.
There were of course women in the woodwinds and horns - no principals, but section members in flute, oboe, horn. 2/5 percussionists are women.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Heck148 said:


> Regarding women holding positions in major orchestras-
> I just returned from Chicago, where I heard the Symphony give two great concerts - Rite of Spring, and Petrushka -
> 
> for the the large works - 30 violins were used - 16-14; *22 out of 30 violinists* were women, and by far the largest component was Asiatic women; including associate concertmistress [CM for Sacre], and one assistant CM. the remaining string sections had substantial female representation - not quite as much as the violins - 4/10 violas; 3/10 celli.
> There were of course women in the woodwinds and horns - no principals, but section members in flute, oboe, horn. 2/5 percussionists are women.


I think there is a trend of having more Asian (both male and female) players in major orchestra across the globe.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

pcnog11 said:


> I think there is a trend of having more Asian (both male and female) players in major orchestra across the globe.


On the other side as well. I recently read an analysis that said: As European-descent concert-goers die off, they're being replaced mostly by people of East Asian extraction. I can't find the reference right now.

Locally, most soloists in concerts lately seem to be Asian ladies, and quite fetching ones.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

KenOC said:


> On the other side as well. I recently read an analysis that said: As European-descent concert-goers die off, they're being replaced mostly by people of East Asian extraction. I can't find the reference right now.
> 
> Locally, most soloists in concerts lately seem to be Asian ladies, and quite fetching ones.


I think this actually helps classical music to be gain another level of global popularity. Many Koreans, Chinese gave their children to study classical music when they are young. These kids worked hard and now become concert soloist and playing in major orchestras. I wonder what would an all Asian female orchestra conducted by an Asian female conductor sounds like?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

pcnog11 said:


> I think there is a trend of having more Asian (both male and female) players in major orchestra across the globe.


Definitely. the "Pacific Rim" is the newest source of top musical talent...I remember doing a gig with the Harvard University Orchestra.......IIRC, at least 3/4 of the string players were Asians...not all music majors, of course, but university community people.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Meanwhile, I am still waiting for the first truly great female conductor to come along and move me on the level of Karajan, Munch, Toscanini, Wand, Walter, etc;

Not blaming anyone for this not yet happening.

Just saying...I'm still waiting.


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