# Caruso on an Acoustic Victrola



## bigshot

Ha! I've talked a lot on here about how hard it is to get an electrical transcription of an acoustically recorded 78. Now I've been able to capture it.

Here is "Qual volutta trascrorre" from Verdi's I Lombardi. The singers are Enrico Caruso, Frances Alda and Marcel Journet. It was recorded on Sunday January 7th, 1912. I just recorded it playing on my 1914 Victrola VV-X. This is the cheapest cabinet model that Victor made. It was a working man's phonograph. I recorded it using a $150 Tascam DR-40 using the built in microphones.

http://animationresources.org/test/VerdiILombardi.mp3

Here is the same record transcribed electrically...






Can you hear the difference? Especially in the presence of the vocals and the dynamics... When I was playing this it was so loud my ears were ringing. You can hear that the mikes started to blow out a little at the huge peak at the end.

Next weekend I am getting a Brunswick Cortez delivered. It is the Rolls Royce of all acoustic phonographs with a 27 inch high horn... my lowly VV-X is about half that size. I can't wait to do some recordings on that with this great little Tascam!


----------



## Figleaf

Bravo, Bigshot! I would say that your transfer has greater presence and immediacy than the other, which seems somehow pallid and one dimensional in comparison. The voices leap off the old shellac on your clip! This immediate, vivid quality of your transfer is as I would expect from a really good example of a transfer that involved recording directly from a record played on an original machine: even some of my crude transfers, involving a no-brand cabinet gramophone c. 1915 and the sound recorder on a cheap tablet, sound better than some commercial transfers which sound dull and/ or over filtered. I wonder if you have done some cleanup work though? There's not a lot of surface noise. The other thing I would say is that you had excellent raw material to work with: voices don't come much more splendid than Caruso or Journet in their prime, and Frances Alda was no slouch either. As often with Victors, the voice(s) are well forward and the orchestra faint, which is the right way round! The other thing is that on the original recording the voices are remarkably well balanced, which isn't always the case in ensembles. Think of the recording of the final trio from Faust in which Pol Plançon's Mephistopheles is clearly much further away than Emma Eames' Marguerite or Charles Dalmorès' Faust, or the Melba/ Sammarco/ McCormack recording of the same piece in which Marguerite has clearly elbowed her way to the front and poor Faust is nearly inaudible. Can anything be done to correct the balance between the singers and posthumously punish recording horn hogs like Melba? Also, do you have a youtube channel? It would be great to hear more of your transfers if you have the time to make them and put them online!


----------



## Albert7

bigshot said:


> Ha! I've talked a lot on here about how hard it is to get an electrical transcription of an acoustically recorded 78. Now I've been able to capture it.
> 
> Here is "Qual volutta trascrorre" from Verdi's I Lombardi. The singers are Enrico Caruso, Frances Alda and Marcel Journet. It was recorded on Sunday January 7th, 1912. I just recorded it playing on my 1914 Victrola VV-X. This is the cheapest cabinet model that Victor made. It was a working man's phonograph. I recorded it using a $150 Tascam DR-40 using the built in microphones.
> 
> http://animationresources.org/test/VerdiILombardi.mp3
> 
> Here is the same record transcribed electrically...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you hear the difference? Especially in the presence of the vocals and the dynamics... When I was playing this it was so loud my ears were ringing. You can hear that the mikes started to blow out a little at the huge peak at the end.
> 
> Next weekend I am getting a Brunswick Cortez delivered. It is the Rolls Royce of all acoustic phonographs with a 27 inch high horn... my lowly VV-X is about half that size. I can't wait to do some recordings on that with this great little Tascam!


How do you USB from the phono to the computer for this setup to record?


----------



## bigshot

This is an acoustic Victrola. No electricity. Just vibrating diaphragms and horns. I recorded it with a digital recorder with a built in microphone

Figleaf, there is no cleanup there. Straight sound out of the horn. I'm getting a new phonograph next week that has a massive horn. I'll do some more test recordings when I get it.


----------



## Frasier

Excellent. Plus of course, Caruso knew what he was doing, which is more than you can say for more recent tenors.


----------



## Figleaf

bigshot said:


> This is an acoustic Victrola. No electricity. Just vibrating diaphragms and horns. I recorded it with a digital recorder with a built in microphone
> 
> *Figleaf, there is no cleanup there. Straight sound out of the horn. I'm getting a new phonograph next week that has a massive horn. I'll do some more test recordings when I get it.*


It will be interesting to compare the transfers from records played on the Brunswick Cortez with those played on the Victrola.

How does the Cortez compare to the EMG, another huge-horned gramophone?


----------



## bigshot

Here are some pictures to show you the kinds of machines I'm talking about. This is the VV-X from 1910. It's a small cabinet model designed to play early acoustic recordings using a single spring motor, nickel plated hardware, a pot metal horn, and the Victor exhibition soundbox. It cost $75 ($1,700 in today's money) and they sold over a half a million of them. The horn opening (the top set of doors) is about 12 inches wide and 5 inches tall. My VV-X is a blonde tiger oak version like the one on the right, which is considerably rarer than the mahogany models like the one on the left.















This is the Brunswick Cortez from 1926. Its main competitition was the top of the line Victor Orthophonic Credenza which was designed to play early electrical recordings. The Cortez uses a very well made three spring motor, gold plated hardware, brass Panatrope soundbox, and book matched walnut veneer. It cost $300 when it was released (about $4,000 in today's money!). They only made them for three years, and there were probably less than 150,000 of them made. The horn is made of bent spruce, much like the sounding board on the top of a guitar. It's 27 inches tall, and although it isn't really a true exponential design, Brunswick called it one anyway.





















The difference in sound between these two phonographs should be like night and day. I haven't seen the Cortez in action yet, but I am assured by the seller that it is in as close to perfect condition as one could ever expect to find. He is a major phonograph collector and has compared this side by side with the Victor Credenza and he says the Brunswick blows it out of the water. I can't wait to hear it.

Compared to the EMG, the Cortez is just as loud, but with fuller sound because of the shape and composition of the horn and the wider response of the soundbox.

Here is a Cortez playing Casals...






...and here is King Oliver






It's hard to get an idea of how it sounds sometimes from youtube videos because they point the camera down on the motorboard to show the pretty gold hardware and totally miss the sound coming out of the horn. I want to do some videos miking it properly.


----------



## pajaropicu

*Brunswick Cortez for sale in Argentina*

Hi to everybody. I reached this forum searching for information about the Brunswick Cortez because I have one of these and I'm thinking about selling it but I don't have a real idea of its cost. Can you help me with this issue? I'm from Argentina.

Thanks to all



bigshot said:


> Here are some pictures to show you the kinds of machines I'm talking about. This is the VV-X from 1910. It's a small cabinet model designed to play early acoustic recordings using a single spring motor, nickel plated hardware, a pot metal horn, and the Victor exhibition soundbox. It cost $75 ($1,700 in today's money) and they sold over a half a million of them. The horn opening (the top set of doors) is about 12 inches wide and 5 inches tall. My VV-X is a blonde tiger oak version like the one on the right, which is considerably rarer than the mahogany models like the one on the left.
> 
> View attachment 70136
> View attachment 70137
> 
> 
> This is the Brunswick Cortez from 1926. Its main competitition was the top of the line Victor Orthophonic Credenza which was designed to play early electrical recordings. The Cortez uses a very well made three spring motor, gold plated hardware, brass Panatrope soundbox, and book matched walnut veneer. It cost $300 when it was released (about $4,000 in today's money!). They only made them for three years, and there were probably less than 150,000 of them made. The horn is made of bent spruce, much like the sounding board on the top of a guitar. It's 27 inches tall, and although it isn't really a true exponential design, Brunswick called it one anyway.
> 
> View attachment 70138
> View attachment 70139
> View attachment 70140
> 
> 
> The difference in sound between these two phonographs should be like night and day. I haven't seen the Cortez in action yet, but I am assured by the seller that it is in as close to perfect condition as one could ever expect to find. He is a major phonograph collector and has compared this side by side with the Victor Credenza and he says the Brunswick blows it out of the water. I can't wait to hear it.
> 
> Compared to the EMG, the Cortez is just as loud, but with fuller sound because of the shape and composition of the horn and the wider response of the soundbox.
> 
> Here is a Cortez playing Casals...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and here is King Oliver
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's hard to get an idea of how it sounds sometimes from youtube videos because they point the camera down on the motorboard to show the pretty gold hardware and totally miss the sound coming out of the horn. I want to do some videos miking it properly.


----------



## bigshot

I'm afraid I have no idea how much it would be worth in Argentina. Phonograph prices depend on location and demand. A phonograph on the east coast might sell for half what the same phonograph would sell for in Los Angeles. They are very hard to ship, so the values are regional. Condition also matters a lot too. Good original finish, perfect working order means a lot.


----------



## pajaropicu

The phonograph is perfectly working and in very good condition. I'll post some images next week. I haven't found any similar phonograph in Argentinian pages so I don't have a reference. I think the price here may be around U$S 1000 / 1200.

The most similar item I found is this http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-560502823-antigua-vitrola-brunswick-panatrope-original-_JM and they're asking about U$S 1200



bigshot said:


> I'm afraid I have no idea how much it would be worth in Argentina. Phonograph prices depend on location and demand. A phonograph on the east coast might sell for half what the same phonograph would sell for in Los Angeles. They are very hard to ship, so the values are regional. Condition also matters a lot too. Good original finish, perfect working order means a lot.


----------



## Figleaf

bigshot said:


> Here are some pictures to show you the kinds of machines I'm talking about. This is the VV-X from 1910. It's a small cabinet model designed to play early acoustic recordings using a single spring motor, nickel plated hardware, a pot metal horn, and the Victor exhibition soundbox. It cost $75 ($1,700 in today's money) and they sold over a half a million of them. The horn opening (the top set of doors) is about 12 inches wide and 5 inches tall. My VV-X is a blonde tiger oak version like the one on the right, which is considerably rarer than the mahogany models like the one on the left.
> 
> View attachment 70136
> View attachment 70137
> 
> 
> This is the Brunswick Cortez from 1926. Its main competitition was the top of the line Victor Orthophonic Credenza which was designed to play early electrical recordings. The Cortez uses a very well made three spring motor, gold plated hardware, brass Panatrope soundbox, and book matched walnut veneer. It cost $300 when it was released (about $4,000 in today's money!). They only made them for three years, and there were probably less than 150,000 of them made. The horn is made of bent spruce, much like the sounding board on the top of a guitar. It's 27 inches tall, and although it isn't really a true exponential design, Brunswick called it one anyway.
> 
> View attachment 70138
> View attachment 70139
> View attachment 70140
> 
> 
> The difference in sound between these two phonographs should be like night and day. I haven't seen the Cortez in action yet, but I am assured by the seller that it is in as close to perfect condition as one could ever expect to find. He is a major phonograph collector and has compared this side by side with the Victor Credenza and he says the Brunswick blows it out of the water. I can't wait to hear it.
> 
> Compared to the EMG, the Cortez is just as loud, but with fuller sound because of the shape and composition of the horn and the wider response of the soundbox.
> 
> Here is a Cortez playing Casals...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and here is King Oliver
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's hard to get an idea of how it sounds sometimes from youtube videos because they point the camera down on the motorboard to show the pretty gold hardware and totally miss the sound coming out of the horn. I want to do some videos miking it properly.


Yes, the King Oliver video is an extreme example of somebody fetishizing the gold hardware! Gramophone porn doesn't do it for me, I just want to hear the music. The Cortez does sound very good on that video though- your transfers are going to be excellent and I can't wait to hear them!


----------



## Morimur

Figleaf said:


> Yes, the King Oliver video is an extreme example of somebody fetishizing the gold hardware! Gramophone porn doesn't do it for me, I just want to hear the music. The Cortez does sound very good on that video though- your transfers are going to be excellent and I can't wait to hear them!


Yes, it looks like the pornography.


----------



## bigshot

It's not classical music, but here is the Brunswick Cortez in action...

Raymond Scott: The Penguin http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/thepenguin.mp3

Raymond Scott: Dinner Music For A Pack Of Hungry Cannibals http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/dinnermusic.mp3

Ted Lewis "St Louis Blues" http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/stlouisblues.mp3

Ted Lewis "My Mama's In Town" http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/mamasintown.mp3


----------



## Figleaf

I just listened to the St Louis Blues. Bravo! What presence and clarity!


----------



## bigshot

I took some photos of the old girl last night...


----------



## bigshot

one more...


----------



## Figleaf

bigshot said:


> one more...
> View attachment 70561


I just got an error message, 'invalid attachment specified...'?


----------



## Figleaf

Figleaf said:


> I just got an error message, 'invalid attachment specified...'?


I can see the picture now. Very nice and shiny!


----------



## bigshot

I am thinking about finding my crown jewel... my Z shellac copy of Die Walkure by Walter and playing it. I've already transcribed and restored it. But if I'm going to subject it to a steel needle, I have to get the dogs out of the house and turn off the AC and record it properly. Still thinking about it. I don't have a lot of 20s-30s classical. I mostly have acoustic recordings from the teens and orchestral stuff from the 40s.


----------



## bigshot

Tough decision.


----------



## Figleaf

Do you normally use thorn needles, Bigshot? Bought in or made yourself? I've heard it's possible to make them using bamboo and a sharp knife, but I don't know how feasible that really is.


----------



## bigshot

You know, intellectually I know that records were designed to be played by steel needles; and as long as the machine is in proper alignment, there is no real wear. But I have a niddling bit of OCD about it still. My purpose in getting the Cortez was to get a phonograph that didn't require a bunch of time consuming steps to play a record, so I'm sure I'll get around to playing everything.

I once found a pristine Batwing Victor from 1917. It was new old stock in its original sleeve looking like it was fresh from the music store. I carefully transferred it electrically, then played it 100 times with loud tone needles. By the end of it, I was sick of the song! I transcribed it again using the exact same settings and compared the "after" to the "before". There was absolutely no difference. I really shouldn't worry about playing my records.

The interesting thing about 78s is that you use a new needle for each play... the needles wear out so the records don't. I generally use three types of steel needles... soft tone, medium tone and spear point Siren needles which are both loud and medium tone, depending on which way you turn them. They sell them on eBay for very cheap, so I buy them by the thousand and just keep using fresh needles.

I bought some records from a collector who used fiber needles. The records were in horrible shape. The bamboo had turned to mulch in the bottom of the grooves and started to grow mold. I would play a record with a steel needle and there would be little balls of gunk all over. It took a thorough cleaning and a few plays to get all the stuff out. Unfortunately, the mold had eaten into the shellac, so the grooves were all pitted.


----------



## KenOC

Steel needles came in a little box of a dozen or so. We also snapped Mom's sewing needles short (but didn't tell her). We had thorn needles too, and a hand crank device to sharpen them...


----------



## Figleaf

bigshot said:


> You know, intellectually I know that records were designed to be played by steel needles; and as long as the machine is in proper alignment, there is no real wear. But I have a niddling bit of OCD about it still. My purpose in getting the Cortez was to get a phonograph that didn't require a bunch of time consuming steps to play a record, so I'm sure I'll get around to playing everything.
> 
> I once found a pristine Batwing Victor from 1917. It was new old stock in its original sleeve looking like it was fresh from the music store. I carefully transferred it electrically, then played it 100 times with loud tone needles. By the end of it, I was sick of the song! I transcribed it again using the exact same settings and compared the "after" to the "before". There was absolutely no difference. I really shouldn't worry about playing my records.
> 
> The interesting thing about 78s is that you use a new needle for each play... the needles wear out so the records don't. I generally use three types of steel needles... soft tone, medium tone and spear point Siren needles which are both loud and medium tone, depending on which way you turn them. They sell them on eBay for very cheap, so I buy them by the thousand and just keep using fresh needles.
> 
> I bought some records from a collector who used fiber needles. The records were in horrible shape. The bamboo had turned to mulch in the bottom of the grooves and started to grow mold. I would play a record with a steel needle and there would be little balls of gunk all over. It took a thorough cleaning and a few plays to get all the stuff out. Unfortunately, the mold had eaten into the shellac, so the grooves were all pitted.


That's great to be reassured about the effect of steel needles. I'm surprised about the mould caused by bamboo needles; obviously bamboo is organic matter and it rots away, but I'm surprised that any collector sufficiently careful to use fibre needles in the first place wouldn't immediately clean away any detritus that those needles leave behind. (Unless the only way to clean such dirty records adequately is by playing them with a steel needle, which would be ironic!) Presumably if he had played them with fibre needles and then somehow removed the bamboo fragments, the records would have been undamaged.

I have worn out records with a steel needle before- but they were all records that came to me with a very significant amount of wear already, evidenced by visible 'greying'. I have no idea how many playings they had been subjected to which had left them in this state- but it sounds like it must have been very many!


----------



## bigshot

The way to keep records from wearing out is to use a new steel needle for each play. Gray records got that way in as little as two or three plays with an old needle.


----------



## Wood

I'll need to do a spreadsheet to work out the cost per aria playing a CD on the mains versus the cost of a needle each time a 78 is played.

Perhaps a steel needle can be sharpened after each play to allow it to be reused?


----------



## Figleaf

Wood said:


> I'll need to do a spreadsheet to work out the cost per aria playing a CD on the mains versus the cost of a needle each time a 78 is played.
> 
> Perhaps a steel needle can be sharpened after each play to allow it to be reused?


The thorn needle sharpening devices KenOC refers to can still be found secondhand, but I don't know how you would sharpen steel needles at home.  I guess we could practice on some Gracie Fields records like this one (I'm embarrassed to admit that I do own a copy of it!)






I won't try to stop you having fun with your spreadsheets though... 

:kiss:


----------



## KenOC

Figleaf said:


> The thorn needle sharpening devices KenOC refers to can still be found secondhand, but I don't know how you would sharpen steel needles at home.


An electric drill and an oilstone?

Needles and the like were a marketer's dream. Anybody remember the osmium stylus? The nude Shibata diamond?


----------



## Figleaf

KenOC said:


> An electric drill and an oilstone?


Wouldn't the electricity to power the drill cost more than a new steel needle? 

I don't actually know what needles cost these days, having just got to the end of a particularly large and ancient batch (and not kept the used ones, sorry Wood!) I used to get them from a Tring acquaintance well known to Youtubers as the EMG Colonel, but he has moved away now. This site has packs of 400 for £11.95 including postage, but it might be possible to beat that price somewhere else.

http://www.78records.co.uk/needles.htm


----------



## bigshot

Wood said:


> I'll need to do a spreadsheet to work out the cost per aria playing a CD on the mains versus the cost of a needle each time a 78 is played.


2.3 pennies per play. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-Victro...742?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3aab9dffce

You don't want sharp needles... those would dig into the bottom of the groove and wear the record out. You want soft ones with a rounded tip the same size as the groove. That's why you only use them once. If you use them again, they continue to wear down and the grooves sharpen them until they bottom out in the bottom of the groove.


----------



## Wood

Figleaf said:


> The thorn needle sharpening devices KenOC refers to can still be found secondhand, but I don't know how you would sharpen steel needles at home.  I guess we could practice on some Gracie Fields records like this one (I'm embarrassed to admit that I do own a copy of it!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I won't try to stop you having fun with your spreadsheets though...
> 
> :kiss:


Gracie has a nice voice, but yes, given the offensive subject matter that is a record that should be tested to its limit, then destroyed.

No electricity, no spreadsheets... I'll have to revert to pencil, rubber and paper. Can you still get those things?

A life of spreadsheet computations and no utilities; there must be a lot of girls round here who are extremely jealous of you Figleaf. :lol:

xxx


----------



## Wood

bigshot said:


> 2.3 pennies per play. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-Victro...742?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3aab9dffce
> 
> You don't want sharp needles... those would dig into the bottom of the groove and wear the record out. You want soft ones with a rounded tip the same size as the groove. That's why you only use them once. If you use them again, they continue to wear down and the grooves sharpen them until they bottom out in the bottom of the groove.


It might be hard to get those economically from the US. Using Figleaf's link, I'd estimate 3p per play. Say 16 sides per hour, that would be 48p, prohibitively expensive for anything other than occasional listening.

That is interesting about needles being soft Bigshot. So is it possible to soften the needles after each play? I'd imagine they could get a great deal of use if it was.


----------



## bigshot

The idea is that with the first couple of revolutions, the needle wears down to snugly fit the groove. That way, it transmits the vibrations more directly to the diaphragm in the reproducer. If you continue to use the same needle, the groove continues to wear away the sides of the needle, making it into a sharp point that eventually starts to dig into the bottom of the groove. That is what has happened on records with "graying". As long as you change the needle with each play, it doesn't have a chance to damage the groove.

The important thing to remember with 78s when you estimate playing time is that you have to add time for cranking, changing needles and flipping the record with each song. So it would be more like 10 four minute sides per hour, not 16. That comes out to about 25 cents per hour for needles. Another financial consideration is the cost of the records. They usually cost 50 cents to a dollar apiece in junk stores. So you're talking somewhere between $3 to $5 per hour. CDs are $10 to $15 usually.


----------



## Wood

bigshot said:


> The idea is that with the first couple of revolutions, the needle wears down to snugly fit the groove. That way, it transmits the vibrations more directly to the diaphragm in the reproducer. If you continue to use the same needle, the groove continues to wear away the sides of the needle, making it into a sharp point that eventually starts to dig into the bottom of the groove. That is what has happened on records with "graying". As long as you change the needle with each play, it doesn't have a chance to damage the groove.
> 
> The important thing to remember with 78s when you estimate playing time is that you have to add time for cranking, changing needles and flipping the record with each song. So it would be more like 10 four minute sides per hour, not 16. That comes out to about 25 cents per hour for needles. Another financial consideration is the cost of the records. They usually cost 50 cents to a dollar apiece in junk stores. So you're talking somewhere between $3 to $5 per hour. CDs are $10 to $15 usually.


Thanks for replying Bigshot. I may be trying to flog a dead horse here, but is it possible to chop off the sharp end of the needle, so as to get it back to its original condition? That way you get to reuse them until they are too short to use.

Yes, I thought about the flipping after posting, that is true, but the purchase cost would be less relevant for us because we are thinking more about using existing collections.


----------



## bigshot

Wood said:


> Thanks for replying Bigshot. I may be trying to flog a dead horse here, but is it possible to chop off the sharp end of the needle, so as to get it back to its original condition? That way you get to reuse them until they are too short to use.


You would have to blunt the steel at the tip again and re-nickel plate it. Easier to just toss two more pennies out and buy a new one.


----------



## Figleaf

Wood said:


> Gracie has a nice voice, but yes, given the offensive subject matter that is a record that should be tested to its limit, then destroyed.
> 
> No electricity, no spreadsheets... I'll have to revert to pencil, rubber and paper. Can you still get those things?
> 
> A life of spreadsheet computations and no utilities; there must be a lot of girls round here who are extremely jealous of you Figleaf. :lol:
> 
> xxx


Well, going off grid was my idea, and you're the one in charge of spreadsheets! And I'm sure any women who know you are very, very jealous of me. :kiss:

It doesn't sound like steel needles are going to be a feature of our new, simplified life together, so perhaps some culling of the collection is in order! Poor Gracie!


----------



## bigshot

Well, I've stocked up on steel needles, and after the big one drops, I'll be listening to music. You guys will be left with a bunch of sparkly frisbees with no electricity to play them with!


----------



## Wood

bigshot said:


> Well, I've stocked up on steel needles, and after the big one drops, I'll be listening to music. You guys will be left with a bunch of sparkly frisbees with no electricity to play them with!


Yes, we'll need to hedge our bets, and get a 1,000 or so needles. The next task is to see if it is possible to run a turntable off the electricity generated by a windmill.


----------



## bigshot

I have a spring motor with a crank, so as long as I have at least one arm, my turntable will keep spinning!


----------



## Guest

Should we completely lose our electrical grid, and we have to revert back to a pre-electricity society, I don't imagine I will have the time to listen to some crackly music that you have to flip over every 4 minutes, and pop in a new needle. And who exactly will be providing you with needles after such an apocalyptic event? And how will you communicate with them to purchase more? Pony express? You'll enjoy your music for a little while, and then you'll be in the same boat as us.


----------



## Guest

Oh - I will buy a generator, so as long as I can get a hold of a fuel source, my sparkly frisbees won't be useless.


----------



## Figleaf

DrMike said:


> Should we completely lose our electrical grid, and we have to revert back to a pre-electricity society, I don't imagine I will have the time to listen to some crackly music that you have to flip over every 4 minutes, and pop in a new needle. And who exactly will be providing you with needles after such an apocalyptic event? And how will you communicate with them to purchase more? Pony express? You'll enjoy your music for a little while, and then you'll be in the same boat as us.


I've had my gramophone and shellac records since I was about twelve years old, way before I knew anything about peak oil. If one were 'prepping' for a grid down situation and starting from scratch, music would probably be a very low priority! I believe this thread has already covered the options for replacement needles, and Bigshot's suggestion of stockpiling steel needles in advance is probably the most practical one yet, assuming thorn needles are not worth the effort of making at home. I wonder if digitizing my collection is the way to go, provided that we can generate electricity to power the laptop/ CD player/ tablet/ whatever. The real problem for listening post-TEOTWAWKI would be if these gadgets were to break down and replacement parts could not be found, although difficulties playing music would probably be the last of anybody's problems then!


----------



## bigshot

All you need to know! Get ready! Prepare!


----------



## Wood

This isn't just about an apocalyptic vision of the future. Those who control the assets in the world, and pull the strings of our politicians, would not want a complete economic breakdown. Instead, these b#stards are trying to take an ever bigger share of these assets, and the goods and services that are produced, away from us. They wish to grind us down into the cheapest possible units of production, like the workers in India and China.

At the moment, they are succeeding, in an incremental way, whilst the people being affected by this have largely buried their heads in the sand (or the Daily Mail). 

It therefore makes sense to prepare for a time when utilities will become impossible to afford for many of us. In such a scenario, it would be very important to me that I can still enjoy my music in some way or other.

:tiphat:


----------



## Wood

Figleaf said:


> I've had my gramophone and shellac records since I was about twelve years old, way before I knew anything about peak oil. If one were 'prepping' for a grid down situation and starting from scratch, music would probably be a very low priority! I believe this thread has already covered the options for replacement needles, and Bigshot's suggestion of stockpiling steel needles in advance is probably the most practical one yet, assuming thorn needles are not worth the effort of making at home.* I wonder if digitizing my collection is the way to go, provided that we can generate electricity to power the laptop/ CD player/ tablet/ whatever*. The real problem for listening post-TEOTWAWKI would be if these gadgets were to break down and replacement parts could not be found, although difficulties playing music would probably be the last of anybody's problems then!


Mp3 players are cheap to manufacture and don't use much power. I would expect them to be around whatever the financial meltdown, so digitisation and 5v devices are the way to go.

Charging should be feasible;

http://www.instructables.com/id/Wind-Powered-USB-Device-Charger/

http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/wind-up-usb-charger-9-99-maplin-instore-439930

Tailor made DIY solutions would probably be the most satisfactory.

Has anyone tried to power an mp3 player without using fossil fuels? It would be interesting to know how easy it is.


----------



## Figleaf

Wood said:


> This isn't just about an apocalyptic vision of the future. Those who control the assets in the world, and pull the strings of our politicians, would not want a complete economic breakdown. Instead, these b#stards are trying to take an ever bigger share of these assets, and the goods and services that are produced, away from us. They wish to grind us down into the cheapest possible units of production, like the workers in India and China.
> 
> At the moment, they are succeeding, in an incremental way, whilst the people being affected by this have largely buried their heads in the sand (or the Daily Mail).
> 
> *It therefore makes sense to prepare for a time when utilities will become impossible to afford for many of us. In such a scenario, it would be very important to me that I can still enjoy my music in some way or other.*
> 
> :tiphat:


Exactly! The fact that I have been convinced by peak oil theory and you have not, makes no difference to our plans. The changes you outline were of course the catalyst for me to research alternative (frugal, resilient) ways of living, and I discovered peak oil/ doomer websites in the process. Whether the likes of Ugo Bardi are right or wrong (and their scientific theories and mathematical models are entirely unintelligible to me anyway) makes little difference when the effect of falling living standards and increased precariousness are already apparent- and spreading up the social hierarchy.

http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/seneca-effect-origins-of-collapse.html



Wood said:


> Mp3 players are cheap to manufacture and don't use much power. I would expect them to be around whatever the financial meltdown, so digitisation and 5v devices are the way to go.
> 
> Charging should be feasible;
> 
> http://www.instructables.com/id/Wind-Powered-USB-Device-Charger/
> 
> http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/wind-up-usb-charger-9-99-maplin-instore-439930
> 
> Tailor made DIY solutions would probably be the most satisfactory.
> 
> Has anyone tried to power an mp3 player without using fossil fuels? It would be interesting to know how easy it is.


I would be interested to know that too. I have been tempted to get a solar charging device for tablets and phones, but the price is steep given the possibility that the device may be badly made and short lived:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Powertravel...harger/dp/B007ZN9B9Q/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

The wind up charger you link to has the advantage of being inexpensive, and thus less of a risky investment. I have a sneaking suspicion that the build quality of these things may not be directly related to the price; if this were not the case, I would have no problem paying more for robustness and longevity- something photovoltaic panels are not currently known for.

We have gone _waay_ off topic! These issues are worthy of a thread in their own right. We need Bigshot to post some more transfers of operatic records played on his splendid machine to get us back on topic here! :tiphat:


----------



## bigshot

I'm currently up for sale to the Chinese! Highest offer wins me! In the meantime, I'm merrily burning through fossil fuel like there's no tomorrow... watch me burn! Yow! There'll be nothing left, but I won't care. I'll be relaxing in China listening to Nellie Melba!


----------

