# Tempting Non-Classical Listeners



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Howdy ho boys and girls,

I recently read an interesting article in the Journal of New Music Research, and wrote an article about its findings and thought I'd share it here just in case you find any of its contents interesting. 

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As all classical music lovers know, the genre suffers in the modern world (mostly among young people) from the perception that it is boring, elitist, or both. When I began university, after having spent my teenage years in a rural culture-hole, I landed in a city alive with public lectures, plays, concerts, and operas. While greedily consuming as much of those events as my free time allowed, I would usually make sure to take along a friend who I knew didn't listen to classical music, and I loved walking away from the theatre talking about how 'surprisingly' enjoyable it all was.

I could talk for hours about how classical music is the least boring music you could listen to - how it fosters constant originality and innovation, despite the tragic façade given to it by the likes of Classic FM, who degrade it to relaxation background noise. Similarly, I could rant about how many concerts there are with ticket prices starting at £10, unlike the cost of witnessing a celebrity, and how the ideas of stringent dress-codes and the embarrassment of applauding at the wrong time are just myths.

But chatter only gets you so far. That's why I was delighted to find a study in the Journal of New Music Research which set out to put complete newcomers in this alien environment, and see what could be done to tempt them to return. As such:



> nine culturally-aware participants (aged 24-36) with little or no experience of classical concerts were invited to attend three orchestral concerts at London venues. Data from focus groups and individual interviews revealed that feelings of inclusion and participation in the performances were important predictors of the participants' enjoyment of the concert experience.


One obstacle that became apparent time and again in this study, as well as others before it, is that first-time concert goers often feel that they are lacking some kind of insider information about the music, thus lessening their ability to appreciate it. Instead, they feel that classical concerts present necessarily 'perfect' performances, and so they feel obliged to enjoy all the music they hear.

As one participant said:



> I suppose with me with classical concerts the big thing is I always, unless someone's doing something really badly, which they never are, I find it impossible to tell really how good they are, because I've got nothing to measure it against. And so there have been one or two occasions where people go mad, they go absolutely berserk, and you're like: "well that was good, but was it good enough to go berserk to?"


It was therefore interesting to see how they reacted to the three concerts they attended: the first featured Rachmaninov's Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini, and Shostakovich's Fifteenth Symphony, as well as a world première of Shruti by Joseph Phibbs. The second was a late-night, hour-long concert by the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, featuring Mozart's overture to The Impresario, as well his Twenty-First Piano Concerto (movements 2 and 3), finishing with Beethoven's Coriolan Overture. The final concert was of Strauss's overture to Die Fledermaus, followed by Schumann's Piano Concerto and Brahms's First Symphony.

Interestingly, one concert-goer said of the first concert:



> And listening to that piece [Shruti] ... I don't know, it seemed to me to be very broken up, really like, very kind of, odd pieces of music kind of strung together. And I kind of got frustrated that I didn't appreciate what I was hearing, you know, just because of my ignorance of the music really.


Encounters with contemporary music can be daunting, even intimidating, when you're used to listening to exclusively tonal pieces. However, though I listen _only_ to classical music, not many contemporary works impress me, but that's because of my view of tonality in music, not because of any self-perceived ignorance. Yet, the above attendant makes a legitimate criticism of the music, rather than just dismissing it as noise, and still feels inadequate.

As is typical with most concerts, two out of the three were supposed to engage the audience with programme notes, yet the people involved with the study felt that they were largely unhelpful as they assumed a wealth of prior knowledge. In the second concert, however, the director and pianist, Robert Levin, actively included the audience by demonstrating and discussing a particular passage from the Mozart Piano Concerto, which he compared to jazz and Baroque improvisation. As such, the majority of the participants found this concert the most enjoyable.

Another curious point noted by the study is that:



> understanding the function and purpose of the conductor in performance may be even more difficult for non-attenders than understanding the role of the performer: the relationship between player and instrument is easier to comprehend visually than the less tangible gestures of the conductor. Directing from the piano, Levin encompassed both roles, but the participants referred to him more frequently as 'pianist' than as 'conductor' or 'director'.


Bearing all this in mind, classical concerts may still inadvertently present a lofty atmosphere that is unpleasant to newcomers. Programme notes, which have already received bad press recently amongst concert-goers who feel they a poor medium for learning about the music performed, are largely unhelpful and essentially careless - so long as there are programme notes, the orchestra can be said to have at least tried to engage the audience, without actually putting any genuine effort and enthusiasm into the process.

Instead, we ought to wish for greater vocal involvement from conductors especially - after all, these highly-paid but usually-silent leaders are the ones who shape every performance, and who are ultimately accountable for poor interpretations and dull evenings. If new audience members perceived a greater connection between conductor and composition, then they would rightly feel empowered to judge whether a performance is good or bad, and therefore would no longer have to feel the moral duty to adore every classical concert they attend.

- Dobson, Melissa C., 'New Audiences for Classical Music: the Experiences of non-Attenders at Live Orchestral Concerts' in Journal of New Music Research (Vol. 39:2, pp. 111-24 - 2010)


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I haven't yet met anyone who does not even like at least one single classical tune/melody. Beethoven's 5th, or Vivaldi's _Spring_, or Mozart's _Eine kleine Nachtmusik_ or whatever, everyone is bound to experience something that catch their attention even for 3 seconds. I guess that's a good thing but the real challenge is to motivate them to explore much, much more and ultimately to find classical music relevant in the lives.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I think thats pretty accurate. My dad who is a non-musician, but really enjoys classical or contemporary concerts, his biggest issue or questions always concern the role of the conductor. It just isnt at all obvious if youve never been involved in performing this kind of music.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Best way into classical music is through short pieces.


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> My dad who is a non-musician, but really enjoys classical or contemporary concerts, his biggest issue or questions always concern the role of the conductor. It just isnt at all obvious if youve never been involved in performing this kind of music.


Just explain that because sound doesn't travel at the speed of light, it would be virtually impossible for one musician to play at the exact same time as another musician who is a great distance away without some sort of visual cue.

Of course, _we_ know that there is much more to a conductor's job than that, but it's a quick way to show a non-musician (or someone who is not a classical aficionado) the conductor's primary importance.

Just say he's basically like the drummer in a rock band, keeping the beat. Or remind him of when you are at a rock concert (or a football match) and the fans from across the venue always seem to be singing a second behind the fans near to the listener.


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## Musicbox (Jan 20, 2011)

Classical music needs to get rid of some of the rituals.... like: 
Why are the perfomers dressed for a dinner party in 1897?
Why can't people clap between movements if they enjoyed it?

But.... I suspect there is just no way you can make classical music attention grabbing enough to compete with instant pop culture and instant gratification that the internet, downloaded music, handheld media devices, games etc can all provide to the yoof of today. Sadly it will only appeal to a few lonely snobs, crippled by our long attention spans and ability to relate musical events more than 3 minutes apart.

In which case.... elitism might not be a bad thing - its one way of maintaining standards.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Musicbox said:


> Classical music needs to get rid of some of the rituals.... like:
> Why are the perfomers dressed for a dinner party in 1897?
> Why can't people clap between movements if they enjoyed it?
> 
> ...


I think the importance of dress-code for the performers is certainly overstated, but at least it's not enforced on the audience. As for the clapping, in-between-movements clapping has been largely encouraged in the past few years - one of the main problems of classical music is that non-concert-goers probably perceive today's concert 'etiquette' as it actually was say fifty years ago. I'm not sure exactly how, but we need to try to make people aware of the actual informality of attending a concert, without pulling patronising, one-trick stunts like performing in a field.

Also, I don't think the way contemporary classical music is composed ought to change in favour of being instantly attention-grabbing, but I don't think that quality is maintained through elitism, but rather a simple sense of artistry (attention-grabbing is the reserve of film-classical music). Instead, people ought to be encouraged to listen to it via a process of gradual exposure - first to the really famous parts of Mozart and Beethoven; then similar pieces by famous-to-us-but-unknown-to-newbies composers; then longer pieces _etc. etc._, until they have actually developed the _attention span_ necessary to listen to such music - at least, I went through that process, not always having been able to sit through a full symphony, but now an hour-long piece is just typical for me to hear.


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

Musicbox said:


> Sadly it will only appeal to a few lonely snobs, crippled by our long attention spans and ability to relate musical events more than 3 minutes apart.


That attitude isn't helping draw more people to classical music, let me tell you.

The fact is that there is plenty of non-classical music in which the songs are longer than 3 minutes, and I tire of classical music fans suggesting otherwise. It's as if some classical music devotees can't tell the difference between the ephemeral corporate drivel like Britney Spears, and the original artists whose music has stood the test of time, like Billie Holiday or Pink Floyd.

In addition, many great artists from the 20th century created these things called 'albums', in which several smaller pieces of music are grouped together to form a stand-alone collection of work. Just like I might buy a 45-minute symphony on cd, I might also buy a 45-minute album on cd. It's not really all that different.

Finally, there are plenty of classical pieces that last 3 minutes or less. Depending on one's taste, one could find more interesting phrases/melodies/progressions/etc within those 3 minutes from a given artist than one could within an entire symphony by another artist. And again, that's not really any different than the rock/jazz world either.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

Video Game Music Concerts are the only big revelation in bringing Classical Music to younger audiences. And it has been a resounding success. Worldwide concert halls have for the first time been filled with young people.

Classical music has stayed at a level because they have done little to promote modern composers. Younger people are not always interested in the older style and want to hear contemporary classical. At least this offers a gateway to the older classical music.

If you only promote one style to one demographic you will lose a key percentage of your market and your product will die out or stay at a level.

Also very poor education in school and no funding from governments.

I always think the performing arts should get more focus in education because you can get a job with music, theatre, writing and so on.

American schools are slightly better but English schools are terrible when it comes to music educational.

Snobbery doesn't help either. It seems any modern composer is second best or an underdog. If you don't promote and respect young people there will be less reason for them to take up music and aim high.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Yeah but video game music is awfully superficial and i think its usually pretty rubbish.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> Yeah but video game music is awfully superficial and i think its usually pretty rubbish.


+ there is no future with such project

Yeah, sure you can fill the concert hall with young people but there won't be any far-reaching result because those young people would be some computer games geeks, fantasy nerds and other figures that never will turn to classical music. Just because you make them listen to symphonic orchestra playing some crap doesn't mean that it will make any good. Better focus on normal young people. Making normal teenager go to classical concert with his girlfriend to listen Rach/Tchaikovsky is always better than tempting some freak with possibility to hear music from games live.

The main mistake in promoting classical music among younger people is that adults take them for complete idiots attracted to **** like flies.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

It doesn't matter if you think it's rubbish the fact is it promotes Classical Music and millions enjoy it.

I'm sure you two both appreciate film scores?

Well you would realise that film composers also compose music for video games. Such as Harry Gregson-Williams, Hans Zimmer, John Williams, Danny Elfman and more.

Other names you might recognize might be Michael Jackson the composer of Sonic the Hedgehog 3, Sheena Easton, Ian Gillian, Stewart Copeland (drummer from the police), Utada Hikaru.

And of course popular artists such as Chopin, Beethoven, Bach, Elvis, Eminem, The Beetles can be found in video games.

Im surprised you think these musicians are rubbish. Many would disagree with you.

Video Games is the largest entertainment medium in the world and makes more money than the film industry. And it's still in it's infancy as an art form. So I think games and it's music is here to stay.

Video Game Music concerts are always sell-out events. The world of classical music really needs this, and the title of the thread alone confirms it.

So to get more on topic I think you should promote contemporary classical more and this would attract young people to the genre and inspire young composers. There is much proof that this works.

Take Doctor Who at the PROMS for example. Lots of non-classical people enjoyed watching that.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I dont see how a concert of video game music in any way helps classical music. Video game music is so incredibly superficial and doesnt require much more effort than most pop music, nor does it have more impact so it doesnt in any way prepare someone for the experience nor commitment required to appreciate a symphony.

Most film music is the same, occasionally you have exceptions such as John Williams and his use of the leit- motiv, which is a structural device, in star wars. Yet i still prefer his concert music. Hans Zimmer is awfully rubbish.

In your post you keep comparing video game music (no, perhaps even admit that this is what it is) to entertainment. 

Some Britney Spears music uses violins and they are always sold out concerts. So what?


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

Aramis said:


> Yeah, sure you can fill the concert hall with young people but there won't be any far-reaching result because those young people would be some computer games geeks, fantasy nerds and other figures that never will turn to classical music.


What a strange statement...

Wouldn't the "geeks" and the "nerds" be the ones _most_ likely to turn to classical music?

I don't know what you are trying to say, really. It makes no sense. Video games are immensely popular, and if it gets more young people into the music, then all the better.



Aramis said:


> Better focus on normal young people. Making normal teenager go to classical concert with his girlfriend to listen Rach/Tchaikovsky is always better than tempting some freak with possibility to hear music from games live.


What difference does it make if it is getting people interested in the music?

How do you "make" a normal teenager go to a classical concert? And how do you define "normal teenager"?

Maybe trying to put teenagers into convenient little boxes is a bad idea... and maybe trying to determine for these young people how and when it is acceptable for them to embrace classical music is an even worse idea. How about we let them decide for themselves?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Well, I don't know how old are you, but being young person myself I certainly know what I'm talking about and I have actual data concerning types of teenagers. Computer games geeks obviously are not kind of people that would get to real classical music at some point.



> And how do you define "normal teenager"?


Someone who doesn't spend his life playing video games and wouldn't attend musical event just because it would be related to his dumb and empty hobby.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I would actually say that normal teenagers *do* play video games.

In the US, 62% of teens play regularly.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Would 100% of this 62% attend musical event just because it would be related to video games? If so... uh...


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I think some people are misunderstanding what attending a video/tv/film-music concert promotes:

They promote _orchestral_ music, not _classical_ music. Just because a commissioned soundtrack to a video game uses standard orchestral instruments, you can't make the jump that, therefore, these people will get into Beethoven.

Some pop music uses violins and cellos as cheap gimmicks - does that draw people to listen to chamber music? No.


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

What is _classical _music, then?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

dmg said:


> What is _classical _music, then?


We all know that such a question is laborious and essentially unanswerable. It's better to make a long list of what _isn't_ classical music - video music would appear in that list.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

dmg said:


> What is _classical _music, then?


Och, please.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

As someone who both loves classical music and is an avid video-gamer, I disagree with emil's claim about video game music... Even though most of it, even the best tunes, consist of 1 or 2-minute clips of electronic "instruments" looping over and over, it is still music.. and no less worthy of attention than, say, an Italian aria or a Chopin mazurka. If a composer could craft several longer (4-6 minute) versions of the pieces and arrange them for orchestra, or a suite that combines several pieces, I'm sure it would be a great inclusion for a classical concert to draw in more people. 

It wouldn't be that hard to take a tune from Zelda, add some new music, then to recapitulate the main tune and *poof* there you have classical sonata form. It could be a great learning experience!


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Ravellian said:


> It wouldn't be that hard to take a tune from Zelda, add some new music, then to recapitulate the main tune and *poof* there you have classical sonata form. It could be a great learning experience!


sure, I could try the same thing with my phones standard ring tone.


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## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

emiellucifuge said:


> sure, I could try the same thing with my phones standard ring tone.


Sorry emiellucifuge, Phil Glass beat you to it 

And all you classical purists out there that want to dismiss 'video game music' concerts please sign your paycheck (if you get one) directly to one of the fine orchestras that are having financial difficulty right now. There is a business side to music as well and 'pops' concerts help these organizations keep the ship afloat for your loftier 'works of art'.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

MrTortoise said:


> Sorry emiellucifuge, Phil Glass beat you to it
> 
> And all you classical purists out there that want to dismiss 'video game music' concerts please sign your paycheck (if you get one) directly to one of the fine orchestras that are having financial difficulty right now. There is a business side to music as well and 'pops' concerts help these organizations keep the ship afloat for your loftier 'works of art'.


I don't think any of us are dismissing 'video game music' concerts as worthless, or artless, or cheap; we're saying that such concerts _don't_ naturally lead to an interest in classical music.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

A ten-second "ring tone" is not comparable to a 2-minute video game "tune." There's no reason to be close-minded about this. Perhaps you need convincing..

Introduction song to Ocarina of Time:





From Shadow of the Colossus (this is actually a very moving 7-minute piece):





From Sonic the Hedgehog CD (something a little more standard but still a great tune:


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> I would actually say that normal teenagers *do* play video games.
> 
> In the US, 62% of teens play regularly.


And I bet the percentages of males are much higher. The fact is, all kinds of kids play video games, and there are all kinds of games out there these days. Sure, some games are pure run-and-gun entertainment, but many others focus on things like role-playing and in-depth strategies that stimulate the mind.

The notion that only "uncool" kids play video games is about the most immature and ridiculous concept I've heard in a while. That's certainly not how it works in American middle and high schools, where there is as much diversity in gaming habits as you can imagine.

So, orchestral music from some of these games is catching the interest of a lot of kids, and while it may not satisfy the desires of a classical purist, so what? It doesn't have to. These are _kids_, after all, and I've never known a single one who didn't modify their musical and artistic tastes as they matured into adulthood. That's just part of growing up, and some of these kids will want to know what this classical music stuff is all about someday.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> That's just part of growing up, and some of these kids will want to know what this classical music stuff is all about someday.


Or eventually they will end thinking that Hans Zimmer is contemporary classical composer because they heard his music in philharmonic.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Can we stop the 'purist' jibes? This isn't about degrading the value of game music; it's about whether or not game music is a bridge towards an interest in classical music, which it is NOT.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Polednice said:


> Can we stop the 'purist' jibes? This isn't about degrading the value of game music; it's about whether or not game music is a bridge towards an interest in classical music, which it is NOT.


I'm really not hearing any good reasons for why it wouldn't be.. even if some modification to the original music is required.


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## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

Polednice said:


> I don't think any of us are dismissing 'video game music' concerts as worthless, or artless, or cheap; we're saying that such concerts _don't_ naturally lead to an interest in classical music.


Point well taken Polednice, attending a 'pops' concert will not necessarily bring those listeners into the 'classical' fold. I do find it interesting that the audience of the last performance of "Carmina Burana" I attended contained a noticeable contingent of young people that many would call "goths". It was refreshing to see so many more young people at a symphonic concert. Now what brought them there? Was it the use of Orff's music in so many soundtracks, or maybe the sensual nature of the the text of the work? I'm not sure, but I think that the probability that some of those young people might attend another symphony concert if the music they heard moves them artistically is only increased by this experience. The same could be said for a "Star Wars" concert, especially if the conductor had the aplomb to point out and play musical excerpts of 'classical' works that Williams 'used as models' for his film scores.

Putting down popular music (including video game music) will not win classical music any fans, it can only hurt it.


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

Polednice said:


> We all know that such a question is laborious and essentially unanswerable. It's better to make a long list of what _isn't_ classical music - video music would appear in that list.


And I'm saying that you're wrong, as 'video game music' is not a genre. If Beethoven music appeared in a video game, is it suddenly not classical? Your argument makes no sense.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

dmg said:


> And I'm saying that you're wrong, as 'video game music' is not a genre. If Beethoven music appeared in a video game, is it suddenly not classical? Your argument makes no sense.


'Video game music' as in music composed specifically for video games...

MrTortoise makes a good point about music _not_ specifically composed for video games (_e.g._ Beethoven) being used in games - I could accept that that could draw fans into classical music if they liked what they heard when playing.


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

And why would music composed specifically for video games not be classical? Is it because what it is that you heard, you didn't like? That means classical is defined as music you like, correct?

This is why people are driven away from classical music. 'If it doesn't satisfy my elite tastes, it isn't classical.' or 'Classical is only for elite listeners like myself. Since I am an elite listener, and I don't like it, it isn't classical.' And people see this as 'I am an old fart, or an elitist nerd, and I don't like video games. Video game music can never be music that appeals to my elite listening standards.' Therefore, they see classical music as not for them, and classical music listeners as not their type of person.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

dmg said:


> And why would music composed specifically for video games not be classical? Is it because what it is that you heard, you didn't like? That means classical is defined as music you like, correct?
> 
> This is why people are driven away from classical music. 'If it doesn't satisfy my elite tastes, it isn't classical.' or 'Classical is only for elite listeners like myself. Since I am an elite listener, and I don't like it, it isn't classical.' And people see this as 'I am an old fart, or an elitist nerd, and I don't like video games. Video game music can never be music that appeals to my elite listening standards.' Therefore, they see classical music as not for them, and classical music listeners as not their type of person.


No, I don't define classical music as music I like, you're just desperate to make the assumption that I am an ****.

As a fan of video games myself, I am familiar with various soundtracks, and I am not lying when I say that I genuinely enjoy them. However, contrary to what you're suggesting, just because I like something doesn't mean I have to apply the label of 'classical music' simply because it uses orchestral instruments.

Again, would it be right to regard pop music that uses violins as classical-chamber music? No. Instrumentation is not enough.

Personally, I think the most important factor in determining what is classical or (perhaps more appropriately for contemporary music) 'art' music is intention. If somebody writes a piece with the intention of it being submitted to the same scrutiny as works now in the canon, seeing it as a part of that same artistic tradition, then it ought to be considered as such. It may be good, it may be bad, but its composer sees it as an artwork and so it should be judged as artwork.

Video game music is music written for video games. The composers' primary intention is _not_ artistic thought-provocation. The music may be superbly written, but that doesn't make it 'art'. If we're going to carry on with all these assumptions, then I would suggest that you're the typical counter-snob who views 'art' as a term once held sacred by the elite, and you want to claim it for anything of any kind, so long as someone enjoys it, regardless of whether or not its creators thought of it as art in any way. You suffer from an inferiority complex and, while you obsess over the notion that other classical-music listeners secretly patronise you for disliking 'just video game music' or other genres, you fail to realise that they're not elitists, they're just interested in what a composition has to say for itself as a piece of art.


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

Polednice said:


> The composers' primary intention is _not_ artistic thought-provocation.


That is flat-out incorrect. Saying video game music is not art is also wrong, and extremely ignorant. Video game composers (the good ones at least) love to compose music and create a work of art. They put just as much into it as any other composer. To say otherwise is insulting, to say the least.

Many video game scores are nothing like pop music with orchestration - that is an incredibly off-base comparison. Saying the score to an Elder Scrolls game is the same as Britney Spears with orchestral backing is blatantly false, and comes across as nothing more than an attempt at insult. And if you say 'well, not THOSE video games', then you missed my point about 'video game music' not being a genre.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

dmg said:


> That is flat-out incorrect. Saying video game music is not art is also wrong, and extremely ignorant. Video game composers (the good ones at least) love to compose music and create a work of art. They put just as much into it as any other composer. To say otherwise is insulting, to say the least.
> 
> Many video game scores are nothing like pop music with orchestration - that is an incredibly off-base comparison. Saying the score to an Elder Scrolls game is the same as Britney Spears with orchestral backing is blatantly false, and comes across as nothing more than an attempt at insult. And if you say 'well, not THOSE video games', then you missed my point about 'video game music' not being a genre.


I wasn't actually comparing video game music to pop music at all, I was just providing an alternate example. I get it, I'm a terrible elitist, and I should stop being evil and instead declare everything in existence as a piece of art. I'll go and work on that.


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

The problem is you're lumping all video game music in one pile and saying it isn't art. Like film scores, there are quite a few rehashed themes and half-***** mish-mashes. But there are some true gems as well. Perhaps the games you play are of a specific genre that do not require an in-depth score, such as fighting games or shooters. I don't know. But I do know that there will be film and video game score compositions that will stand the test of time.

Video games are a relatively young medium, and only within the past 10 or 15 years have they had the capability to utilize recorded sound to the fullest capacity. This will continue grow, and we will see more composers like Jeremy Soule emerge.


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

dmg said:


> And why would music composed specifically for video games not be classical? Is it because what it is that you heard, you didn't like? That means classical is defined as music you like, correct?
> 
> This is why people are driven away from classical music.


Yes, exactly.

It seems that a lot of classical music fans can become overly obsessed with categorizing, labeling, and defining every single thing, as if this art form we call music can only be experienced and understood within a strict, uncompromising hierarchy.



Polednice said:


> Personally, I think the most important factor in determining what is classical or (perhaps more appropriately for contemporary music) 'art' music is intention.


But listeners frequently do not know the intention of the writer of the music, and don't necessarily know where the music came from.



Polednice said:


> If somebody writes a piece with the intention of it being submitted to the same scrutiny as works now in the canon, seeing it as a part of that same artistic tradition, then it ought to be considered as such. It may be good, it may be bad, but its composer sees it as an artwork and so it should be judged as artwork.
> 
> Video game music is music written for video games.


How about these...

Bach - Sonata No. 2 in A Minor, BWV 1003: I. Grave
Bach - Partita No. 3 in E Major, BWV 1006: I. Preludio
Bach - Partita No. 3 in E Major, BWV 1006: VII. Giga
Dvorak - Violin Concerto in A minor, Op. 53: I. Allegro ma non troppo
Sarasate - Zigeunerweisen, Op. 20

These are all from one game, in which a woman plays and broadcasts these songs on a violin, and the player can tune their radio station to listen to her.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

Regarding VGM being a genre I think it is since Games Music requires something from the composer that you won't find elsewhere. So it now has it's own style.

When they use music from other composers I have heard this called Licenesed Music. It's exactly the same as a film score using a pop song for whatever reason.

No it's not classical if it uses beethoven because VGM uses many different styles including some new ones of it's own. So it can be classical.

Regarding VGM not leading to a sustainable interest in classical music. It doesn't really matter if they do choose to listen to the older classical styles. The modern is still classical.

Listening to older classical i don't think confirms you like classical or wins you an award.

It is just a matter of taste like with any other genre of music you have different styles and decades.

There is a huge fan community that enjoys arranging the music, playing it, discussing it so the interest does go beyond a concert.

Some games such as Eternal Sonata which is based on a fictional world dreamed by Chopin during his last hours have definitely introduced classical music to a new audience.

Than there are nintendo wii games that aim to teach you about rhythm, music notation in a simple and fun way.

And I personally heard Moonlight Sonata for the first time in Resident Evil. That was probably my first time of showing an interest in classical music.

I remember asking the music teacher at school if she could play the song and she played the first few notes than told us to go to break. So there's secondary school music education running at full capacity.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

The above post brings up a good point - video games can use classical music as part of their soundtrack.. this is another good way to introduce gamers to classical. For instance, I was just playing through Fable III recently, and there's a turning point in the game in a palace where a Bach 2-part Invention is playing in the background. I was giddy, let me tell you..


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> this is another good way to introduce gamers to classical


Really? What young people are told by that? "Look, classical music doesn't require attentional listening, you can play games and stuff with classical music as musical wallpaper!". That's not good lesson.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Wouldn't you rather people listened to classical as wallpaper than not at all? 

You can't force people to care more about music - they either decide to or not.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Jacob Singer said:


> That attitude isn't helping draw more people to classical music, let me tell you.
> 
> The fact is that there is plenty of non-classical music in which the songs are longer than 3 minutes, and I tire of classical music fans suggesting otherwise. It's as if some classical music devotees can't tell the difference between the ephemeral corporate drivel like Britney Spears, and the original artists whose music has stood the test of time, like Billie Holiday or Pink Floyd.
> 
> ...


As a young man I can assure you that I know a lot of other young people that complain if a piece (non classical) is five minutes long! Not only that it's popular to change the song after the chorus.

I know through my friends that they dont think that the classical world is intimidating, they just think it's BORING!

Video game classical music is just sad.
If you think it's a good way to get young people into classical music I have a better idea. Do you know what activity is even more popular than video games? PORN!
If instead of the usual sounds in a porn scene you replace that with classical music, more people than you can think of will hear that. Just think: The Grosse Fuge in a hardcore scene. This is the closest that most of young people will ever get to it.
Not only that, I think it would be popular among the young people that visit the porn sites, they can lock the door, turn up the volume, and their parents think they're listening to classical music!


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Pieck said:


> If you think it's a good way to get young people into classical music I have a better idea. Do you know what activity is even more popular than video games? PORN!
> If instead of the usual sounds in a porn scene you replace that with classical music, more people than you can think of will hear that. Just think: The Grosse Fuge in a hardcore scene. This is the closest that most of young people will ever get to it.
> Not only that, I think it would be popular among the young people that visit the porn sites, they can lock the door, turn up the volume, and their parents think they're listening to classical music!


10/10 :tiphat:


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

All kinds of music can be artistic. Classical music specifically though has it's own genres, like the sonata, symphony, string quartet, opera etc. Other types of music can of course be influenced by classical music but that doesn't necessarily make it classical. But as I said it can still be artistic.


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

So if I write a sonata for a video game, is it classical?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

dmg said:


> So if I write a sonata for a video game, is it classical?


Sure + if it wouldn't be imitation of unactual styles but real, contemporary sonata compareable with other works of it's time. But let's consider such cases after they are less fantastic than that, right? "If someone would..." is not argument in discussion on current state of things. It's like:

"- guinea pigs shouldn't be considered as full citizens of country!
- but if some guinea pig would want to create bank account and apply to army? You're such a conservative and close-minded ****! "


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

One poster tried to cheapen Video Games by comparing them to pornography. A subject that is no doubt close to his heart.

In the old days classical composers were paid to write music for royalty or as a countries national anthem. Now they are paid to write music for films and video games. Or behind the scenes to make a pop star sound interesting.

I don't see what has changed. They need to make a living than and they do now.

If you revived some of the great composers of the past i'm pretty sure some of them would quickly realise they can write music and make money.

In fact they might greatly value being able to communicate with millions of young people across the world.

I see no division or barriers with classical music being used elsewhere it is a good thing that brings people happiness. The fact that it creates an interest is a bonus.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

LordBlackudder said:


> One poster tried to cheapen Video Games by comparing them to pornography. A subject that is no doubt close to his heart.
> 
> In the old days classical composers were paid to write music for royalty or as a countries national anthem. Now they are paid to write music for films and video games. Or behind the scenes to make a pop star sound interesting.
> 
> ...


What I meant is that trying to bring people closer to classical music through video games is a bad way.
And what has changed is that when Bach wrote his cantatas it wasnt meant to be a background noise for the people to chat in the church, it was meant to be listened.


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## Comus (Sep 20, 2010)

dmg said:


> The problem is you're lumping all video game music in one pile and saying it isn't art. Like film scores, there are quite a few rehashed themes and half-***** mish-mashes. But there are some true gems as well. Perhaps the games you play are of a specific genre that do not require an in-depth score, such as fighting games or shooters. I don't know. But I do know that there will be film and video game score compositions that will stand the test of time.
> 
> Video games are a relatively young medium, and only within the past 10 or 15 years have they had the capability to utilize recorded sound to the fullest capacity. This will continue grow, and we will see more composers like Jeremy Soule emerge.


You're right, Soule is an exception, but I doubt we'll see more like him. I first recognized his talent through Secret of Evermore and no other game soundtracks of the 90s compared.

I believe the other posters are correct in that video game music will never attract folks to classical music. Film isn't doing much in that regard and it's rife with it. Not only is it musical wallpaper like someone else said, but it conditions the mind to hear the music in relation to tangible events in the game or film creating an internal register of leitmotifs. Every time they hear a dissonant sonority they'll think "scary" or "the train's coming to kill Aunt Maybelline." Instead of listening in a musical context they'll listen according to the schema of multimedia entertainment [EDIT=>] limiting genuine interest greatly. What's it worth if you can't see it happen at that point, amirite?


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## Comus (Sep 20, 2010)

This LordBlackudder, who has taken up the cause of video game music, is an example of how far gamers can truly be expected to go with classical. Perhaps he does listen to more than game music (in which case I apologize dearly), but after reading his previous posts, I seriously doubt it. I don't believe video games will promote any expanding of musical horizons.


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

Aramis said:


> Really? What young people are told by that? "Look, classical music doesn't require attentional listening, you can play games and stuff with classical music as musical wallpaper!". That's not good lesson.


So young people can't listen to classical music and do something else at the same time? I think that is extremely narrow-minded. One of the greatest things about music is that it can be experienced at the same time as visual stimuli with no cognitive interference between the two. Our brains are more than capable of handling such tasks.

I, for one, have no qualms about listening to classical music and doing something else at the same time (e.g. driving, cleaning the house, posting on a message board, searching amazon for a particular cd, etc.).

The bottom line is that putting up artificial barriers around classical music and limiting it to only being experienced under extremely strict circumstances not only underestimates the art form, but it also reeks of the snotty conservatism that turns people off in the first place.

No wonder classical music is so unpopular with the younger generations. Sheesh...


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Jacob Singer said:


> snotty conservatism


I pretty much prefer "snotty" conservaticism to "cool" attitude that you represent and which equals lack of respect and understanding towards music. If you really think that if teenager that will half-hear Bach piece while being focused on playing some racing/shooting game will have some spiritual experience because of it and another day he will go to get recordings of his oratorios you must be lunatic :tiphat:


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

LordBlackudder said:


> One poster tried to cheapen Video Games by comparing them to pornography. A subject that is no doubt close to his heart.
> 
> In the old days classical composers were paid to write music for royalty or as a countries national anthem. Now they are paid to write music for films and video games. Or behind the scenes to make a pop star sound interesting.
> 
> ...


Show me ONE video game soundtrack that was worked on for longer than 14 years. Heck, show me one that was worked on longer than 1 year and I'll be bloody impressed. There's the difference. The big difference. And there are many more

I agree completely with Polednice, intention is where it's at. Sure a video game soundtrack can be beautiful, but it isn't art for the sake of art. Elitist? Yes, somewhat, but I don't see any problem with that. Distinctions have to be made, comparing a video game soundtrack to Beethoven's ninth or Wagner's The ring is just wrong.

Also, why would we want more people attracted to classical music? I'll encourage everyone willing to take a listen, but why actively go on and think of ways to lure more people in? Do we really need that? Are we short of something?


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

So the cantatas Bach had to turn around in less than a day aren't classical?


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## Random (Mar 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> I pretty much prefer "snotty" conservaticism to "cool" attitude that you represent and which equals lack of respect and understanding towards music. If you really think that if teenager that will half-hear Bach piece while being focused on playing some racing/shooting game will have some spiritual experience because of it and another day he will go to get recordings of his oratorios you must be lunatic :tiphat:


Exactly :tiphat:


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

mueske said:


> Also, why would we want more people attracted to classical music? I'll encourage everyone willing to take a listen, but why actively go on and think of ways to lure more people in? Do we really need that? Are we short of something?


It depends. If you're nice and positive guy with banana on your face you want to share beauty and stuff with others, if you think that there are people who would love it but don't know that it exists. At the other hand it's nothing new that majority of people is uncapeable of appreciating such things. Personally I belive in need to make classical music visible and available, presented properly in education system (I had terrible and dumb music teacher presenting unattractive and badly planned program) and advertised in reasonable way (in my city there are philharmonic posters on pillars and advertisement on huge telebim in center [of course among others presented on it] + cheaper tickets for young people and I think it's enough).


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

dmg said:


> So the cantatas Bach had to turn around in less than a day aren't classical?


It's not like that was my only point. But you really don't see a difference between film or game music, and the works of Bach? I must ask; are you listening?



> It depends. If you're nice and positive guy with banana on your face you want to share beauty and stuff with others, if you think that there are people who would love it but don't know that it exists. At the other hand it's nothing new that majority of people is uncapeable of appreciating such things. Personally I belive in need to make classical music visible and available, presented properly in education system (I had terrible and dumb music teacher presenting unattractive and badly planned program) and advertised in reasonable way (in my city there are philharmonic posters on pillars and advertisement on huge telebim in center [of course among others presented on it] + cheaper tickets for young people and I think it's enough).


I'm not a very nice and positive guy.  I can agree that it should be more prominent in the educational system, I also had a teacher who barely thought me anything. I'll ask some of my friends to go to a concert with me, but I really couldn't care less if some random guy in the street never heard a note of Beethoven. His loss. It's not like it's hard to get into it, I managed alright, and you did as well, despite the bad teacher.


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

Aramis said:


> I pretty much prefer "snotty" conservaticism to "cool" attitude that you represent and which equals lack of respect and understanding towards music.


That makes no sense, and nothing that I said should have led you to that conclusion. Just because I don't think that classical music has to be viewed as narrowly and strictly as you do, then I must therefore have some lack of respect for it? ...or even more laughable, lack of understanding? 

That is exactly the attitude that is the problem.



Aramis said:


> If you really think that if teenager that will half-hear Bach piece while being focused on playing some racing/shooting game will have some spiritual experience because of it and another day he will go to get recordings of his oratorios you must be lunatic :tiphat:


Whoa, slow down there chief... who said anything about a "spiritual experience"? And why does everything have to be about enlightening some teenager as opposed to just providing them with enjoyment?

Why can't the teenager just like what he hears (as some percentage of them likely will), and maybe go search for that music elsewhere to download or whatever. If he finds other things along the way that might draw him further into classical music, then great. If not, then what's the harm? It's still more attention given to Bach or whomever that would otherwise not be. Does _properly_ enjoying an art form require one to be as conservative about it as you do? ...and if they aren't, then are they somehow enjoying it "wrong"?


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I think this composer did an excellent job at a _computer_ game soundtrack, it's performed by a real orchestra, not electronics:






It may be a stretch to say this music had any personal impact on my musical development (I know the entire soundtrack very well, I use to play this game ), but I did like this music very much.


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

mueske said:


> It's not like that was my only point. But you really don't see a difference between film or game music, and the works of Bach? I must ask; are you listening?


Every point brought up has been countered by examples found in the classical reportoire. It all seems to come back to aesthetics and preference. You haven't heard any video game or film music that blew you away. So what? That doesn't mean it isn't classical. I have - does that make it classical... _to me?_

Bach was one composer out of how many? How many fell into the chasm of obscurity from his time period? It's not like there weren't bad composers from the Baroque, Classical and Romantic periods. Would you consider them 'classical'? Is it _quality_ that makes it classical?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> That makes no sense, and nothing that I said should have led you to that conclusion. Just because I don't think that classical music has to be viewed as narrowly and strictly as you do, then I must therefore have some lack of respect for it? ...or even more laughable, lack of understanding?


That makes perfect sense - if you listen to music while cleaning the house it's clearly lack of respect. Unless you had Johan Strauss in mind or some other light music. But listening to... don't want to throw names, let's just say "high" music while doing such things is like going to church and listen to homily while reading tabloid at the same time. It's matter of how you think of music - I approach it as art should be approached and there is nothing narrow minded about that. If attitude that you present is what your methods would teach young people then I'm twice as much against them than before.

I'm not that much conservative but I see you are one of those people that consider everyone that doesn't act like The Dude from Big Lebowski some conservative jerks that stand by the enterance to philharmonic and throw out all people that don't wear evening gowns and ties. I just stand for timeless values and I count respect towards music and treating it as something more than simple enjoyment among them. If you think that it's old-fashioned and outdated then I'm very sorry but at the same time I know that your views, pretentious in their coolness, do not represent what young people with potential expect and think at all. I suppose you don't really count among young people or belong to completely diffrent world than I live in.


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

To add: I actually stop playing frequently during _The Elder Scrolls_ games just to actively listen to the music. So it can be more than just casual / passive listening.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

dmg said:


> To add: I actually stop playing frequently during _The Elder Scrolls_ games just to actively listen to the music. So it can be more than just casual / passive listening.


I remember music from Morrowind and Oblivion. The latter is totally fabricated crap but Morrowind's, as older product from times when there was more decency in industry, stand on level of very good movie soundtrack - no more, no less. I was something like 14 when I played it but even though music attracted my attention it didn't push me to explore classical - perhaps because I was smart enough to realize that it has nothing to do with what classical music sounds like.


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

Except that it does...

It sounds a lot better than many compositions favored on this board, in my opinion, especially by you. Perhaps you really aren't as smart as you'd like to think.


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

Aramis said:


> if you listen to music while cleaning the house it's clearly lack of respect.


That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. It's just so happens that when I clean my house I really enjoy having music to focus on (unless I am running the vacuum, of course  ). Suggesting that it is somehow a lack of respect is downright hilarious. I suppose I shouldn't chew gum or eat potato chips either. Oh no, we wouldn't want to offend poor old Wolfgang or Ludwig, now would we? 



Aramis said:


> I know that your views, pretentious in their coolness, do not represent what young people with potential expect and think at all.


I worked with a lot of kids, and it is clear to me that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

dmg said:


> Except that it does...


I'll gladly find out what pieces from the Morrowind soundtrack sound like concrete classical music. Care to give examples and explainations?


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

What is 'concrete' classical music? Penderecki? Does it need to sound like Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima? That piece doesn't sound anything like a Hungarian Dance by Brahms, which doesn't sound anything like Bach's' cantatas.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Jacob Singer said:


> That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. It's just so happens that when I clean my house I really enjoy having music to focus on (unless I am running the vacuum, of course  ). Suggesting that it is somehow a lack of respect is downright hilarious. I suppose I shouldn't chew gum or eat potato chips either. Oh no, we wouldn't want to offend poor old Wolfgang or Ludwig, now would we?


"The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing" :tiphat:



> I worked with a lot of kids, and it is clear to me that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


No idea what kind of "kids" you work with but considering that I count myself among young people (for a bit less than a year among teenagers as well) I would say that I know thing or two about young people's expectations and thoughts on classical music.



dmg said:


> What is 'concrete' classical music? Penderecki? Does it need to sound like Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima? That piece doesn't sound anything like a Hungarian Dance by Brahms, which doesn't sound anything like Bach's' cantatas.


Concrete classical music means that I would like to hear what particular pieces which unargueably belong to classical music you would call similiar to particular pieces from Morrowind soundtrack, with short explaination based on objective criteria.


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

I can provide that (I have both Morrowind and Oblivion complete scores on my music player), but it probably won't be until the weekend if I do. Even though I don't believe it needs a detailed comparison since music deemed classical is already all over the place in technicality, quality and complexity.

:tiphat:

You also talk about time-tested - that could be a good limiting factor, as video game scores have not been of quality for very long. However, you'll have to also exclude all of the composers who've created music in the past 20 years.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> I can provide that (I have both Morrowind and Oblivion complete scores on my music player), but it probably won't be until the weekend if I do. Even though I don't believe it needs a detailed comparison since music deemed classical is already all over the place in technicality, quality and complexity.


There are couple of things on YT. Main theme: 




Despite all of it's awesomeness it has all soundtrack qualities. It also doesn't apply to any classical aesthetic. In structure minimalistic, in expression neo-romantic. It's as soundtracky as it gets. I also remember battle music and it's even more obvious.

The closest thing to classical is the music that it plays when you're wandering. I'm checking it right now and memories come back. This stuff gets marvelous sometimes but as much as I like it it's still typical soundtrack music that has much more to do with movie stuff than classical music, it's enough to mention instrumentation - it's scored for, like, half of orchestra (some instrumentalists widely used in symphonic music would just sit and play nothing) and choir that has couple of vocalises to sing which makes it neither chamber neither really symphonic music + there's form of typical short unrelated miniatures. Sorry, you may argue and write pages of heresies but what I'm saying is simply truth and if you will ask a professor of music in university he will most likely laugh at you.


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

dmg said:


> Every point brought up has been countered by examples found in the classical reportoire. It all seems to come back to aesthetics and preference. You haven't heard any video game or film music that blew you away. So what? That doesn't mean it isn't classical. I have - does that make it classical... _to me?_
> 
> Bach was one composer out of how many? How many fell into the chasm of obscurity from his time period? It's not like there weren't bad composers from the Baroque, Classical and Romantic periods. Would you consider them 'classical'? Is it _quality_ that makes it classical?


In general no, quality is not of importance. But that does not limit me from saying anything Bach ever wrote will always be better than anything that will ever feature as an original composition on a video game.

This is all I can offer in hopes you'll understand. Though I must say, if you really consider soundtracks and classical music to belong to the same spectrum, you're doing something wrong.


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

'Soundtrack' ... 'soundtrack' is not a genre of music. A soundtrack can contain orchestrated music, music for solo instrumentation, music generated electronically, etc. It can be jazz, ragtime, rock & roll, heavy metal, etc. - why can't it be classical as well? Of course I wouldn't consider heavy metal in a soundtrack to be classical. But what about the soundtracks to The Red Violin or King Kong or Alexander Nevsky? Why would music written for video games and film not count?

Of course soundtrack music tends to fit within a certain time frame or have an overarching theme (like fierce battle music, etc.), but not always. They often have themes and overtures. How is that different than music composed for opera, plays or ballet?

I'm not saying that all soundtracks should be considered classical music. I'm saying some most definitely should.

Also, from your own Wikipedia link:



> Classical music regularly features in pop culture, forming background music for movies, television programs and advertisements.


How dare they!


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## Jacob Singer (Jan 7, 2011)

Aramis said:


> "The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing"


...says the forum uber-cynic.

Priceless.

:lol:


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## Comus (Sep 20, 2010)

Aramis' use of the term "soundtracky" is spot on. 99% of the time video game music exhausts as many cliches as humanly possible, making tacky, uninspired garbage.

However, in Secret of Evermore, Soule does this:






Now, this was the mid-90s so you couldn't do much with the audio, but he did something original and interesting. It's ambient, with a minimalist-like rhythmic repetition (it's in an odd meter too), and an engaging melody throughout. Compare that to something like this:






Empty sentimentality. It opens with _chimes_ for god's sake!


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## Vor Gott (Jan 26, 2011)

I believe that for some unknown, neurobiological—possibly even genetic—reason, some people enjoy Classical music more than others. I was recently asked by a dear friend and die hard Rock and Roll lover to play for him Beethoven's Ninth: he hears me sing it nearly every day in the proper German lyrics. He instantly lit up, so to speak, and enjoyed every note of it. In all honesty, he remarked, "That's amazing! It's going to be hard to listen to any other music now".

The problem is that people like him are underexposed to the best of Classical music in its entirety in modern society.


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## Barking Spiderz (Feb 1, 2011)

I'm only a recent convert myself and I'm almost 40. Less than a year ago my appreciation of CM was limited to the 1812 overture, Barber's Adagio for Strings (by way of a trance tune), Mars from The Planets, the opening chords of LvBs 5th and bit of the 4 Seasons...pretty much like many other CM laymen. That was it. The turning point was when going on along journey my wife brought along a 5-CD CM , 'famous bits' compilation set. A road to Damascus experience. Now I have over 100 CM CDs including stuff by guys I'd never heard of 3 months ago like Bruch, Suk, Novak, Albeniz, Suppe..My guess is most converts probably have similar wake-up calls right out of the blue.


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## Listener (Sep 20, 2010)

I don't know if orchestras playing video game music or movie soundtracks will attract more listeners to Mozart or Beethoven, but I don't know if that matters. Orchestras are too isolated from the general audience and need to find a way to connect. In my view the only way to do this is through playing newer music that people actually like. Some might call this dumbing things down, and while that can happen, I don't think it has to necessarily. While I think it would be quite sad if Mozart or Beethoven were not played anymore, in my view, orchestras need to greatly change their focus. Unless they are specifically thinking of being a period orchestra, their focus should be new music, not that of the past.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Listener said:


> I don't know if orchestras playing video game music or movie soundtracks will attract more listeners to Mozart or Beethoven, but I don't know if that matters. Orchestras are too isolated from the general audience and need to find a way to connect. In my view the only way to do this is through playing newer music that people actually like. Some might call this dumbing things down, and while that can happen, I don't think it has to necessarily. While I think it would be quite sad if Mozart or Beethoven were not played anymore, in my view, orchestras need to greatly change their focus. Unless they are specifically thinking of being a period orchestra, their focus should be new music, not that of the past.


But new music is less popular.
When I think about it if orchestras were playing video game music or movie soundtracks I'd never go to a concert.


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