# Ninths: Bruckner and Mahler



## Avey

Bruckner's Ninth 
Written ~1887-96, dedicated to God, three movements (insisted on four), massive opening, a savage scherzo, ends in Adagio nonetheless called the "Farewell to life"

Mahler's Ninth
Written 1908-09, four movements, massive entrance, raucous dance and manic rondo, ends in Adagio (last notes _ersterbend_), interpreted by many as Mahler's farewell to the world

Both have notes from the composer, tremendous power and passion, distressing, yet cathartic themes -- do you think these two works have any connections? Do you enjoy either? Prefer one? Found the beauty in life somewhere between the two?


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## Art Rock

I love them both. Both would make my top 10 symphonies.

For Bruckner though, that is definitely in the unfinished version (which is perfect). I find the completed version far less appealing.


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## PetrB

......... Bruckner's Ninth ............................ Mahler's Ninth






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Of the two, I prefer Mahler's Ninth.


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## Aramis

PetrB said:


> ......... Bruckner's Ninth ............................ Mahler's Ninth
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> ........
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Pretty short for symphonies.


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## Mahlerian

PetrB said:


> ......... Bruckner's Ninth ............................ Mahler's Ninth
> View attachment 30377
> ........
> View attachment 30378
> 
> 
> Of the two, I prefer Mahler's Ninth.


You jest, I know, but actually, both of them use a minor ninth in their Ninth, and Bruckner is the one who uses it directly (B-C) rather than indirectly (Af-Af-Bff)


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## Vasks

Aramis said:


> Pretty short for symphonies.


You can't see the huge fermatas above them with the word "lunga"


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## Manxfeeder

I like them both. Mahler's is especially notable for its very first page - it could be written by Webern - and the last page - "It comes as close to describing dying peacefully as music ever has" (Bernstein).


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## Aramis

Manxfeeder said:


> and the last page - "It comes as close to describing dying peacefully as music ever has" (Bernstein).


Hate this association, the "letting go" scenario got so widespread that it's almost like authentic program note written by composer. Whenever I listen to Mahler 9th, I try to cast it away.


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## Vasks

Manxfeeder said:


> - "It comes as close to describing dying peacefully as music ever has" (Bernstein).


I have described (on more than one occasion) the mood of the finale as a farewell to Romanticism


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## Alfacharger

Aramis said:


> Hate this association, the "letting go" scenario got so widespread that it's almost like authentic program note written by composer. Whenever I listen to Mahler 9th, I try to cast it away.


I agree, Bernstein being Bernstein, adding a little drama and free association to liven things up.

Here are Mahler's final musical thoughts as realized by Derek Cooke.


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## Blake

Bruckner. Both amazing composers, but I connect with Bruckner on a different level. His entire symphonic output is like one big rapture.


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## LancsMan

I think the Bruckner ninth is great - but the Mahler ninth to me is the greater work. In parts the Mahler seems like the late romantic symphony - and traditional harmony - at the end of it's tether -particularly the first movement - a quite extraordinary movement. It doesn't seem a far stretch to see Mahler joining the second Viennese school had he lived another ten years (but I'm not totally convinced he would have been significantly influenced by Schoenberg). 

Maybe the greatest symphony of the twentieth century? Certainly a very serious contender.


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## ahammel

Mahler was a great admirer of Schoenberg, I believe.


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## CyrilWashbrook

The Bruckner 9 is possibly my favourite symphony so it trumps the Mahler for me, although I do enjoy the latter. The Giulini/Wiener Philharmoniker recording of the Bruckner is one of the most electrifying things I've heard.

I have to say in general that whereas I loved Bruckner's symphonies upon first listening to them (the first one I encountered was the Fifth, about 20 months ago), I didn't immediately take to Mahler and I don't listen to his works as often as Bruckner's. I do get the feeling that I'll attain a greater appreciation of Mahler as I listen to him more, though.



Avey said:


> Bruckner's Ninth
> Written ~1887-96, dedicated to God, three movements (insisted on four), massive opening, a savage scherzo, ends in Adagio nonetheless called the "Farewell to life"


So far as I know, Bruckner's designation "farewell to life" (Abschied vom Leben) referred specifically to the slow, melancholy passage between B and C featuring the descending horn and tuba melody - not the movement as a whole.


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## LancsMan

ahammel said:


> Mahler was a great admirer of Schoenberg, I believe.


From my limited understanding Mahler felt Schoenberg deserved support (and he provided some support) as a rather argumentative, uncompromising progressive musician who was not being given sufficient support and recognition. Whether Mahler was influenced by or was fully sympathetic to Schoenberg's music I'm not so sure of. Perhaps someone like Mahlerian would have a better view than me on this.


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## Aramis

LancsMan said:


> From my limited understanding Mahler felt Schoenberg deserved support (and he provided some support) as a rather argumentative, uncompromising progressive musician who was not being given sufficient support and recognition. Whether Mahler was influenced by or was fully sympathetic to Schoenberg's music I'm not so sure of. Perhaps someone like Mahlerian would have a better view than me on this.


I do think I recall a documentary about Schoenberg where it was said that Mahler indeed was somewhat supportive towards him, but didn't entirely get what he was trying to do. It can be said then that Mahler's faith in Schoenberg was sort of blind/intuitive trust.


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## Blake

Sometimes you just know something is there without reason. Intuition.


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## Mahlerian

Aramis said:


> I do think I recall a documentary about Schoenberg where it was said that Mahler indeed was somewhat supportive towards him, but didn't entirely get what he was trying to do. It can be said then that Mahler's faith in Schoenberg was sort of blind/intuitive trust.


No, no, no...

Mahler could be very harsh on music he didn't like, even by his best friends. His treatment of Bruno Walter's attempts at composition was not in the least supportive, and this led to friction in their relationship at times.

Schoenberg was a difficult man to get along with, and Mahler more than once told Alma that he never wanted to see him again. He found the young man's music difficult as well: during rehearsals for the String Quartet in D minor, he became frustrated and asked the players (one of whom was his brother in law) to play a C major triad, then walked out. But at the premiere, he gave a big show of support.

As regards the later works, I quote La Grange: "Before leaving Vienna, Mahler presumably attended one of the rehearsals of the Second String Quartet, the musical language of which must have struck him as especially difficult to understand. Nonetheless, as Hans Heinz Stuckenschmidt writes: "But--and this differentiates his position essentially from that of Strauss and Reger--his belief in Schoenberg was not shaken by this. He continued to support the musician, *whom he trusted because of his earlier works*, and he knew that Schoenberg depended very much on his help."

And an extract from a letter from Mahler to Schoenberg:
"I have taken your [Second] quartet along, and sometimes study it. But I am finding it difficult. I am so terribly sorry that I can only follow you so imperfectly, and I hope that in future I will have a bit more time 'for myself' (and for you)."

This does not sound like blind trust at all.


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## Avey

First, I have never "liked" so many posts in a row before -- I must have just run through 10 of them on this thread.

Second, just for interest's sake:

Did Mahler _like_ -- loose term, I know -- Bruckner's music? Particularly, was he aware of the similarities between the work, at least the opening themes of the adagios?


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## Blake

Mahler said Bruckner was "half simpleton, half god." He was supposedly a huge fan of Bruckner.


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## Mahlerian

Avey said:


> Did Mahler _like_ -- loose term, I know -- Bruckner's music? Particularly, was he aware of the similarities between the work, at least the opening themes of the adagios?


He could be harsh on it. He loved many of the themes and appreciated the grandeur of Bruckner's conceptions, but, especially later in life, became frustrated with its repetitions and found Bruckner's method of development unconvincing at times. He revised the orchestration for performances (he did the same to Schumann and Beethoven, though).

He said negative things about Brahms and Schubert as well, and only begrudgingly played Tchaikovsky's Sixth _every single season_ during his time with the New York Philharmonic, so it's not as if Bruckner was singled out from criticism. He conducted Bruckner's music more often than, for example, Liszt's.

Was he aware of the similarities that arose at times (in the 4th's first movement, or the scherzo of the 1st, as well as in the finale of the 9th)? I don't know. It's once again a mystery.


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## superhorn

They're both towering masterpieces , each great in its own way . Both can be construed as farewells to
life, although Mahler did leave the first movement of his 10th and the extensive sketches for the rest .
But having become familiar with the completion of the finale of the Bruckner 9th in the Caragan , and Samale
versions, I'm no longer content with performances of the torso .
Imperfect as they my be, they enable us to hear some extraordinary music . I think the program of the
finale could be considered Bruckner's triumphant entry into heaven after the titanic struggles of the first movement and
the adagio . This finale resolves the conflicts, torment and spiritual doubts of the torso .


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## StlukesguildOhio

I love 'em both... but I'll take Beethoven's 9th.


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## Avey

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I love 'em both... but I'll take Beethoven's 9th.


Oh, _booooo_ - Doesn't the fan club have another thread to disrupt?


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## Vaneyes

Avey said:


> First, *I have never "liked" so many posts in a row before -- I must have just run through 10 of them on this thread.
> 
> *Second, just for interest's sake:
> 
> Did Mahler _like_ -- loose term, I know -- Bruckner's music? Particularly, was he aware of the similarities between the work, at least the opening themes of the adagios?


Good, *that's it*. Keep the habit. :tiphat:


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## Cosmos

QLwekrjqoritu uh I can't do this both ninths are amazing and I can't choose one over the other. Really it depends on my mood: while both are powerful and beautiful, Bruckner's is much darker and feels pessimistic until the hopeful ending that lingers on. Mahler's is a celebration of nature (like the others) with an ending that also lingers, yet feels like success: like he's finally satisfied with life


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## Lord Lance

My personal choice is Bruckner. The opening and the second movement are mesmerizing. It is fantastic! Mahler's Ninth will require quite a bit of listening before I can even start to like it


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## Überstürzter Neumann

Vesuvius said:


> Bruckner. Both amazing composers, but I connect with Bruckner on a different level. His entire symphonic output is like one big rapture.


Copy and paste.


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## Sonata

Art Rock said:


> I love them both. Both would make my top 10 symphonies.
> 
> For Bruckner though, that is definitely in the unfinished version (which is perfect). I find the completed version far less appealing.


Yes, I've only heard the unfinished version and I think it's perfect too!


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## DavidA

Bruckner by far. Although the finale of Mahler 9 is haunting.

I have the completed version of the Bruckner nine. Better I think to stick to what is usually performed. I found the completion most disappointing compared with the rest.


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## samurai

DavidA said:


> Bruckner by far. Although the finale of Mahler 9 is haunting.
> 
> I have the completed version of the Bruckner nine. Better I think to stick to what is usually performed. I found the completion most disappointing compared with the rest.


At the risk of revealing my ignorance, here--which is infinite in its depth and breadth--by whom was the Bruckner 9th completed?


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## Art Rock

From Wikipedia on Bruckner's 9th:

Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs completion (1992, rev. 1996, rev. 2005, rev. 2008, rev. 2011)[edit]
For this venture Samale and Mazzuca were joined by John A. Phillips and Benjamin-Gunnar Cohrs. This completion proposes one way to realize Bruckner's intention to combine themes from all four movements. This version has been recorded by Johannes Wildner for Naxos and also by Kurt Eichhorn, with the Bruckner Orchestra in Linz, for the Camerata label.
A new, revised edition of this completion was published in 2005 by Nicola Samale and Benjamin-Gunnar Cohrs (www.musikmph.de). Cohrs´ latest research made it also possible to recover the musical content of one missing bifolio in the Fugue fully from the particello-sketch. This new edition, in all 665 bars long, makes use of 569 bars from Bruckner himself. This version has been recorded by Marcus Bosch for the label Coviello Classics. A revised reprint of this was first performed by the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra under Daniel Harding, Stockholm, in November 2007.
A further revision was published in 2008 and has been recorded by conductor Friedemann Layer with the Musikalische Akademie des Nationaltheater-Orchesters Mannheim. Richard Lehnert explains the changes made for this version.[12]
A final revision was made in 2011, in particular including an entirely new conception of the Coda.[13] The world premiere of this new ending was given by the Dutch Brabants Orkest under the baton of Friedemann Layer in Breda (NL), 15 October 2011. It was performed in Berlin on 9 February 2012 by Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic and can be watched on the Internet.[14] This version was released on EMI Classics on 22 May 2012.[15] Rattle conducted the American premiere at Carnegie Hall on 24 February 2012.[16]


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## ahammel

samurai said:


> At the risk of revealing my ignorance, here--which is infinite in its depth and breadth--by whom was the Bruckner 9th completed?


As per Wiki, there are completions by William Carragan; Nicola Samale and Giuseppi Mazzuca; Nicola Samale, Giuseppi Mazzuca, John A. Phillips, and Benjamin-Gunnar Cohrs; Sébastien Letocart; Ernst Märzendorfer; Hein s'-Gravesande (this person must be made up); Marshall Fine; and Nors S. Josephson.

I think Bruckner himself suggested using his _Te Deum_ as a finale.

EDIT: darn ninjas.


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## samurai

@ Art Rock and Ahammel, Thanks to both of you for your detailed answers to my Bruckner query.


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## Art Rock

No problem. I picked my quote, because it is the Rattle CD that I own (unfortunately).


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## DavidA

Art Rock said:


> No problem. I picked my quote, because it is the Rattle CD that I own (unfortunately).


Yes. Rattle isn't the best of Brucknarians.


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## hpowders

Mahler's Ninth is his greatest symphony, IMO.
Bruckner's Ninth is one of his best but is superseded by the 7th and the 8th.


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## Vaneyes

"It's a tie, set 'em up. Pilsner for Anton, and water for Gustav. Nevermind Alma."

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