# Unsettling 20th Century Music



## zurls (Mar 25, 2019)

I am looking for info on specific 20th century pieces that are filled with anxiety, or are unsettling, etc. I have been recommended Ligeti, Scelsi, Xenakis, Penderecki, and Crumb, and while I am already somewhat familiar with Ligeti and Xenakis, and they are all great, there is so much to wade through it is hard to know where to start!

I have spent three days with Scelsi, and just started on Penderecki, and have enjoyed all of it. I am working on a dark play and it calls for underscoring, and I thought it would be a perfect way to expose an audience to some 20th century composers. Specifically I am looking for calm moments filled with dread or anxiety (as in Scelsi's String Quartet No. 5, or Penderecki's Symphony No. 3, or Kosmogonia) and would like to find more. The other thing that I am looking for is very active, strident music that is frenetic and intense, and perhaps seems slightly insane, or even alien.

Not knowing where else to get the info, I came here to ask the experts.
I'd appreciate any help that I could get. Thanks!


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Wonderfully dark and 20th-century anxiety-ridden... the Age of Anxiety.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Concerto for piano and strings - Alfred Schnittke
_Eight Songs for a Mad King_ - Peter Maxwell Davies


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

The soundtrack to _Psycho.

_


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

You'll find much that is anxious and/or unsettling along with much that is really quite lovely and transcendent at any of these four sites -

*Wellesz Modern* -

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4ujwup4v1sIK12CWttascw

*The Wellesz Company* -

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheWelleszCompany

*Wellesz Opus* -

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjIQf3xXKvNTim0GhUCKMEA

*Wellesz Rhapsody* -

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJZSLgt6I9Y67TGWNr9DEjA


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> The soundtrack to _Psycho.
> 
> _
> View attachment 114855


eek-eek-eek-eek-eek-eek-eek-eek, happy showering









Funny that this re-release is on 'Treasure Island Music', not the first violins that come to mind on a deserted island......certainly worthwhile though to have this version conducted by Bernard Herrmann himself, my copy was released on a different label.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

Stjepan Sulek's 4th Symphony: an unsettling Brahms-like introduction; passages of terror, passages of calm- written in 1954: a work for the times


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

You might try the Russian composer Galina Ustvolskaya, nicknamed "the woman with the hammer". She composed some very dynamic and confronting music. Unsettling maybe, but also moving.

If you listen to Composition I, II, III as recorded by Schonberg Ensemble and Reinbert de Leeuw on Spotify, you might find what you are looking for or take it from there.

A YT link to only one piece of this CD:


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)




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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I have learned here that many people find all contemporary and much modern music (certainly the atonal variety) unsettling. This makes me avoid the word as it hardly seems to describe the nature of music any more. The 20th Century has been a period when a lot of dark music was written but when music uses a language that is new to us and different it may often be that we hear it as unsettling even when that is not really what it is about. I mean no disrespect to or even disagreement with others who have posted suggestions.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Martinů - 3rd symphony
Penderecki - Threnody
Schnittke - String Quartet No. 3


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I have learned here that many people find all contemporary and much modern music (certainly the atonal variety) unsettling. This makes me avoid the word as it hardly seems to describe the nature of music any more. The 20th Century has been a period when a lot of dark music was written but what music uses a language that is new to us and different it may often be that we hear it as unsettling even when that is not really what it is about. I mean no disrespect to or even disagreement with others who have posted suggestions.


Big whoop, wanna fight about it?


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> I have learned here that many people find all contemporary and much modern music (certainly the atonal variety) unsettling. This makes me avoid the word as it hardly seems to describe the nature of music any more. The 20th Century has been a period when a lot of dark music was written but what music uses a language that is new to us and different it may often be that we hear it as unsettling even when that is not really what it is about. I mean no disrespect to or even disagreement with others who have posted suggestions.


We're on the same side of this particular battle which is why I made a point of adding "_along with much that is really quite lovely and transcendent_"

If an atonality/tonality war were to break out (again) upon the forum (one is long overdue by the way and I didn't get a chance to partake in the last one) you would find me to be one of your fiercest allies (except for those days when I'm feeling particularly lazy or uninspired in which case you'll have to settle for "languid allies") - I'm firmly on the side of tolerance and open-mindedness and have little to no tolerance for those who are narrow-minded and intolerant...

The word "unsettling" does not always have negative connotations - it's what I find most interesting about atonality - that sense of unexpectedness - that sense of "I am not now where I once was" in which the thrilling excitement of the uncharted journey exceeds the relief of arriving safely at one's expected destination... Editor's Note: This only applies to contemporary classical music not airplanes...


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

zurls said:


> I am looking for info on specific 20th century pieces that are filled with anxiety, or are unsettling, etc. I have been recommended Ligeti, Scelsi, Xenakis, Penderecki, and Crumb... there is so much to wade through it is hard to know where to start!


*Unsettling 20th Century Music*

Of course, I'm not one to settle much of anything, let alone 20th Century Music, but I have done sound design for theatre productions and sympathize with your dilemma. There is, indeed, much music out there. (Make sure you check with the Rights concerns.) One suggestion I'll offer: limit the music to a specific composer or work, if you can, or, if you have enough experience, with a particular "sound world" so that you have a coordinated sound in the production and not a seeming mish-mash of "strange" 20th century soundings. For instance, if you work with the sound of string quartets, don't throw in a symphony. Keep to string quartets.

Look for clues in the script. I did a sound design for Tennessee Williams's play "The Glass Menagerie" which incorporated dance hall music mentioned in the script. To that I added other music, from Icelandic "new age" composers, believe it or not: the contrast between the sound world of the times (the dance hall music, the music from the on-stage phonograph) and that of the psychological ambience of the drama's situations worked well for this play.

Sometimes I reject the music called for in the script. Always with caution. Tina Howe calls for certain piano pieces by Chopin in her Pulitzer Prize nominated play _Painting Churches_, but after considering the "look" and "mood" the director was opting for, I turned from the lightly sentimental and familiar Chopin to a more unfamiliar sound, which included music by Chinese composer Tan Dun. I today cannot read _Painting Churches_ or contemplate that play with the Chopin soundtrack and prefer my own choices.

Sometimes music that seems counter will actually work better than what seems intuitive. For a production of a play about the life of St. Francis of Assisi I chose not Gregorian chant or traditional sacred music but rather music by Alan Hovhaness. That is "sacred sounding" but not Medieval, and yet it worked beautifully for the overall mood and atmosphere.

Some of the most mysterious music I've utilized was for a collection of plays based on Edgar Allan Poe's works: I used Estonian composer Kaljo Raid's Symphony No. 1 (first movement) for "Murders in the Rue Morgue" and music by Swedish composer Bo Linde for "The Tell-Tale Heart" (Symphony No.2). Note that there is a "sound world" relationship in this music, though by different 20th century composers. (The character Dupin in "Rue Morgue" played the cello in his study in one scene, and the music there was the opening of Bach's First Cello Suite. As well, in a reminiscence of the opera, the background music was "Nessun Dorma", which also made sense since the detective Dupin was an insomniac, and "No one sleeps" was apt in context. Again, the sound world of the _events_ of the drama may different from that of the _mood_ of the drama.)

Without knowing the drama you speak of, or with no consultation with the director and his/her approach to the material, I am handicapped from actually naming anything specific. The play must be considered as a unit when constructing the sound design, or the set design, or the acting design, or whatever. I've done acting, directing, set design as well as sound design, and know that one must always start with the play -- and have a strong command of the material.

Off hand, if I were thinking simply "unsettling 20th Century Music", I would immediately look towards German expressionists, especially those of the East German school. This is music rather unfamiliar to many, but I find it among the darkest and most unsettling music in the 20th century: composers such as Paul Dessau, Rudolf Wagner-Régeny, Siegfried Matthus, Georg Katzer, Manfred Schubert, Manfred Weiss … there are dozens. I have a vast music collection, which allows for me to have many choices. I have a 12-CD box set of music by Friedrich Cerha -- and to this I might look for incidental music for a drama needing something "unsettling". But again, one must work with the play and the direction of the play. Otherwise, one is stabbing into the dark. And _that _proves unsettling, to me.


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## Harmonie (Mar 24, 2007)

I'm afraid, that's all I think of when I think of "20th century music". I know it's a false generalization, as there is a lot of diversity in 20th century music, but it's always been in my mind since I first took Music Theory IV many, many years back.

Anyway, years back (before I took Music Theory IV, yes) when I started becoming interested in playing the bassoon, someone gave me this CD of Gubaidulina's compositions called "Works for Bassoon". Way back then, in 2005, when I had never been introduced to anything like it, it was terrifying, unsettling music for me to listen to. I have rarely listened to it since, but it is certainly "unsettling" if you ask me!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

"Unsettling" is a term which describes a reaction. I suppose any music which has abrupt changes and does not create a "settled mood" could be described this way, but I could digitally put together a collage of excerpts from Mozart, and alter them by filtering, changing speed, and digital editing, which could produce "unsettling" effects. In fact, that might be more effective, because it would unsettle people's ideas of what is unsettling music, yet would not be associated with modern music.

"Normal-sounding" tonal music represents a religious/deistic ideology of music which has been in place for centuries. Music which deviates from that hierarchy (all things relate to "1") such as atonality, set theory, or other ways of handling the 12-note octave, goes against the grain of a very deeply entrenched ideology of Man and his place in the larger picture, which is of course unsettling to most listeners' paradigm, which seems to have been transformed, in these times, into a quaint "art subjectivity" in which all things are focussed for our comfort, and we are once more "the center of all things." Art has its place here in that quaint center, which is still enough for most.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Mollie John said:


> We're on the same side of this particular battle which is why I made a point of adding "_along with much that is really quite lovely and transcendent_"
> 
> If an atonality/tonality war were to break out (again) upon the forum (one is long overdue by the way and I didn't get a chance to partake in the last one) you would find me to be one of your fiercest allies (except for those days when I'm feeling particularly lazy or uninspired in which case you'll have to settle for "languid allies") - I'm firmly on the side of tolerance and open-mindedness and have little to no tolerance for those who are narrow-minded and intolerant...
> 
> The word "unsettling" does not always have negative connotations - it's what I find most interesting about atonality - that sense of unexpectedness - that sense of "I am not now where I once was" in which the thrilling excitement of the uncharted journey exceeds the relief of arriving safely at one's expected destination... Editor's Note: This only applies to contemporary classical music not airplanes...


I didn't think I was starting or even really referring to a battle. I thought I was just making an observation that discussions of modern music being dark and unsettling tend to be a bit sterile and not really interesting in the way that some discussions here can be. Of course, I will continue to defend the modern and avant garde that gives me so much pleasure but I don't yearn for another such thread! I have made a few enemies here - people who can't resist the odd unfair dig at me now - simply because I loathe modern music that is mere rehashing of antique ideas in antique language and love some music that they would like to ban. It is sad because we probably share some tastes at least.

There was a good thread about Boulez a while back where the modern music haters mostly stayed away and we were able to discuss music we like and love together and make the odd recommendation. I also started one about Maxwell Davies and Henze that remained fairly positive. I would like for there to be more threads like these. But, with Boulez the right time had come for somehow music that had seemed outlandish to most ten years ago is now beginning to sound fairly comprehensible and fresh.

There _is _a fair amount of darkness in modern music and plenty of pieces that are unsettling but nowhere near as many as some might believe. And, I agree, dark and unsettling music does have lots of appeal. Hell, I have even enjoyed the odd crazy 'plane ride!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> ...Of course, I will continue to defend the modern and avant garde that gives me so much pleasure but I don't yearn for another such thread!


...and how's that working for you?


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

I would try:


Glazunov: Symphony no. VIII
Rachmaninoff: Opera "The Miserly Knight"
Rimsky-Korsakov: opera "The Invisible City of Kitezh"
Rebikov: Esclavage et Liberte (for piano)
Scriabin: his later piano sonatas
Popov: Symphony no. I
Shostakovich: Symphony no. IV & opera "Lady Macbeth"
Weinberg: Symphony no. VI
Denisov: Symphony (1989)
Prokofiev: Opera "The Fiery Angel"
Knipper: Symphony no. IV
Myaskovsky: Symphony no. XIII and Piano Sonata no. IV
Roslavets: Violin Concerto no. I
Kabalevsky: Cello Concerto no. II
Bernstein: Symphony no. II "The Age of Anxiety"
Hanson: Symphony no. I "Nordic"
Diamond: Symphony no. II
Giannini: Symphony no. IV
Enescu: Opera "Oedipe"
Dutilleux: his two symphonies
Lyatoshynsky: Symphonies I, II, III
Foulds: A World Requiem
Lloyd, George: Symphony no. IV
Bax: Symphonies II & VI
Walton: his two symphonies
Vaughan-Williams: Symphonies IV & VI
Bainton: Symphony no. II
Schmidt: Symphony no. IV
Skulte: Symphony no. V (avail. on YouTube)
Atterberg: Symphony no. IX
Pettersson: Symphony no. VII
Tubin: Symphony no. VIII
Nielsen: Symphonies IV, V, VI
Suk: Asrael Symphony
Janacek: opera "From the House of the Dead"


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mollie John said:


> We're on the same side of this particular battle which is why I made a point of adding "_along with much that is really quite lovely and transcendent_"
> 
> If an atonality/tonality war were to break out (again) upon the forum (one is long overdue by the way and I didn't get a chance to partake in the last one) you would find me to be one of your fiercest allies (except for those days when I'm feeling particularly lazy or uninspired in which case you'll have to settle for "languid allies") - I'm firmly on the side of tolerance and open-mindedness and have little to no tolerance for those who are narrow-minded and intolerant...
> 
> The word "unsettling" does not always have negative connotations - it's what I find most interesting about atonality - that sense of unexpectedness - that sense of "I am not now where I once was" in which the thrilling excitement of the uncharted journey exceeds the relief of arriving safely at one's expected destination... Editor's Note: This only applies to contemporary classical music not airplanes...


What battle are you talking about? Should we be choosing "sides"? It's very odd that you think an "atonality/tonality war" is "long overdue" on the forum when you just joined TC last month. Or did you?

It would be easy to see in your remark about having missed "the last war" a lurking desire to start one up so that you can "partake" in it, take "sides," and express your stated intolerance for the intolerant and narrow-minded. I wonder how you'll identify people who fit that description, and what you'll do when you find them.

Sometimes battles are really started by people who interpret differences of opinion as offenses. There are a lot of opinions about music that people will take offense at, and some of those people will then start talking about "battles" and "sides" and try to form alliances against an imagined alien army. I don't think that's a productive way of looking at forum activity.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

That's me to a T. BTW, the C major scale is inherently unstable.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> What battle are you talking about? Should we be choosing "sides"? It's very odd that you think an "atonality/tonality war" is "long overdue" on the forum when you just joined TC last month. Or did you?
> 
> It would be easy to see in your remark about having missed "the last war" a lurking desire to start one up so that you can "partake" in it, take "sides," and express your stated intolerance for the intolerant and narrow-minded. I wonder how you'll identify people who fit that description, and what you'll do when you find them.
> 
> Sometimes battles are really started by people who interpret differences of opinion as offenses. There are a lot of opinions about music that people will take offense at, and some of those people will then start talking about "battles" and "sides" and try to form alliances against an imagined alien army. I don't think that's a productive way of looking at forum activity.


I can't seem to convey my sense of humour on this forum effectively for which I take full blame - it's a great forum with great people and thus would probably benefit more from my absence than my presence.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> ...and how's that working for you?


I've got no complaints.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mollie John said:


> You're by far the best writer on the forum - I would actually pay to read what you write and was going to reach out to you privately to inquire about articles that you may have written -and I have nothing but profound respect for your insights and analysis.
> 
> I can't seem to convey my sense of humour on this forum effectively for which I take full blame - it's a great forum with great people and thus would probably benefit more from my absence than my presence.
> 
> Well... I still have the "forum whose name shall not be spoken..."


I'd say an apology is in order...


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> I'd say an apology is in order...


From who to whom? And for what?


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> That's me to a T. BTW, the C major scale is inherently unstable.


Well, human beings are inherently unstable, so why wouldn't our music be? On one hand, we seek out what is comfortable, familiar and reassuring, but on the other, we look for the exciting, new and unknown. The tension and ebb and flow between the two states is reflected in just about all music, and there isn't any demonstrably proper resolution, or right place to be. As for unsettling, or unsettled, music, Carl Ruggles and Edgard Varese are two names that come to mind.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Red Terror said:


> Big whoop, wanna fight about it?


Please, don't take off that wig!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> I'd say an apology is in order...


I'd say people ought to mind their own business - and maybe even apologize for butting in.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

fluteman said:


> Well, human beings are inherently unstable, so why wouldn't our music be? On one hand, we seek out what is comfortable, familiar and reassuring, but on the other, we look for the exciting, new and unknown. The tension and ebb and flow between the two states is reflected in just about all music, and there isn't any demonstrably proper resolution, or right place to be. As for unsettling, or unsettled, music, Carl Ruggles and Edgard Varese are two names that come to mind.


Yes, Carl Ruggles is deliberately provocative. I get unsettled just thinking about his music.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mollie John said:


> You're by far the best writer on the forum - I would actually pay to read what you write and was going to reach out to you privately to inquire about articles that you may have written -and I have nothing but profound respect for your insights and analysis.
> 
> Reach out to Becca via PM and ask her if I'm the kind of person that you actually think that I am.
> 
> I can't seem to convey my sense of humour on this forum effectively for which I take full blame - it's a great forum with great people and thus would probably benefit more from my absence than my presence.


Really, I don't have any idea of what sort of person you are. This is my first encounter with a post of yours and I was addressing only the particular ideas it seemed to be expressing. If I've misinterpreted you I'm happy to be corrected.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

I give you my word of honour that I had no idea that anyone would actually take this statement seriously -

"If an atonality/tonality war were to break out (again) upon the forum (one is long overdue by the way and I didn't get a chance to partake in the last one) you would find me to be one of your fiercest allies _(except for those days when I'm feeling particularly lazy or uninspired in which case you'll have to settle for "languid allies")_ - _I'm firmly on the side of tolerance and open-mindedness and have little to no tolerance for those who are narrow-minded and intolerant..."_

I thought the fact that nary a sentence was written without being interrupted by a qualifier which negated what I had just said would have been obvious but based on the reaction - I was wrong and need to seriously adjust my sense of judgement as I really missed this one.

I'm far more inclined to walk away from a fight than to start one...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

If it's any consolation, I still think your avatar is smokin'.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> If it's any consolation, I still think your avatar is smokin'.


I used to think that being "smart, pretty, and funny" were desirable assets... now? - I'm not so sure... I mean about the "funny" part - who cares about that when you're "smart and pretty. eh?


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Inspired by this thread (well, the first page anyway) I listened to Schoenberg's Pelleas und Mellisande, Variationen fur Orchester, and Verklarte Nacht.









I had listened to it upon purchase, but found it "unsettling." I think unsettling can be both a function of sounds (harsh, atonal) as well as organization (meandering, structureless).

Upon a fresh listen, I can still see why I would find it unsettling, since especially the first two pieces are relatively formless and filled with sounds and juxtapositions of notes that "offend" an ear trained on classical musical relationships. But I was able to pick up a bit more from Verklarte Nacht, since I researched it and read the poem it is based on (which is quite moving). It feels very much like a Strauss piece to me, and I enjoy almost all of Strauss.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mollie John said:


> I give you my word of honour that I had no idea that anyone would actually take this statement seriously -
> 
> "If an atonality/tonality war were to break out (again) upon the forum (one is long overdue by the way and I didn't get a chance to partake in the last one) you would find me to be one of your fiercest allies _(except for those days when I'm feeling particularly lazy or uninspired in which case you'll have to settle for "languid allies")_ - _I'm firmly on the side of tolerance and open-mindedness and have little to no tolerance for those who are narrow-minded and intolerant..."_
> 
> ...


That's good to hear. But, just out of curiosity, why would you talk about past "battles" about atonality/tonality and suggest that one was "long overdue" when you just joined TC in February? There hasn't been a major ruckus over what's called "modern music" for what seems like years. Were you around for the Great Exodus of the Disaffected Modernists?


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## pianoville (Jul 19, 2018)

Surprised no one has mentioned Bartoks Music for strings, percussion and celesta. For gods sake, it's in the soundtrack of a horror movie!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Show your script to a theatrical sound designer (like Sonnet...) and take advantage of what he or she knows.


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## Dirge (Apr 10, 2012)

Frank MARTIN: 6 Monologe aus "Jedermann"
· Fischer-Dieskau, Martin/BPO [DG]




Hugo von Hofmannsthal adapted the medieval English morality play «The Somonyng of Everyman» (or just plain «Everyman») for his theatrical märchen (~fairy tale) «Jedermann» of 1911. As the story goes, God sends Death as an administrator of justice to confront the representative rich man, Everyman, with the Record of His Deeds. Death arrives amid an opulent feast in wealthy surroundings and puts to Everyman the awkward question: "What shall speak for him before the face of God?" What ensues is Everyman's accountability to God and quest for salvation. Rather than make an opera out of the play, as was his original intent, Martin culled six monologues [Martin's term, not Hofmannsthal's] that portray the psychological and religious "development of the main character, starting with his terrible fear of death and extending to his complete acceptance in the conviction of forgiveness." It's a dark, angst-ridden work of cumulative impact that provides no comfort, no relief, no place to hide, and it's written in a tonally expanded, tense, often eerie, dissonantly declamatory idiom.

Arnold SCHOENBERG: String Trio
· Juilliard Quartet [CBS/Sony]




The gist of this work stems from Schoenberg's heart attack, near death, and last-second reprieve by virtue of a shot of Dilaudid direct to the heart. The composer has said that the work, written only two and a half weeks after the event, reflects his physical and psychological suffering during that period.

Arnold SCHOENBERG: _A Survivor from Warsaw_
· Reich, Boulez/BBC SO & Chorus [CBS/Sony]




It's tough to beat _A Survivor from Warsaw_ for stark directness in relating a brutal ordeal and for sheer visceral impact. Reich gives a gut-wrenching, intensely compelling narration, and Boulez and the BBC forces match him.

Galina USTVOLSKAYA: Duet (for violin & piano)
· Beths & De Leeuw [hat ART]




The first section contains Ustvolskaya's most brutal and harshly contrasted music, with the big bad piano trying to pulverize the hapless, stressed-out little violin, which sounds as if it's strung with raw nerves rather than catgut. The second section is more of an inquisition, with the violin desperately trying to plead its case only to be shut down by short, bold retorts from the piano; the violin loses and goes into lament mode, occasionally taunted by the piano. The final section is quiet and resigned and relatively lyrical, almost nostalgic, sounding a bit like austere Satie. On the whole, this is about as raw, brutal, and wrenching as music gets. Beths and De Leeuw are outstanding in this staggering performance, which is vividly and immediately recorded.

Alberto GINASTERA: _Bomarzo_
· Rudel/Opera Society of Washington [CBS/Sony]




This grotesque opera revolves around the ignominious life of the tormented and demented and sexually impotent stunted hunchback, the Duke of Bomarzo, as recollected in flashbacks by the Duke as he's dying from poisoning. It's rather heavy on dialog in places, with a declamatory feel much of the time, but the dark and tense serial atmosphere is wonderfully medieval and creepy in a disturbing sort of way-well in keeping with the medieval and creepy subject matter.

Dmitri SHOSTAKOVICH: String Quartet No. 13
· Shostakovich Quartet [Olympia]




· Beethoven Quartet [Melodiya]




This quartet is an uncomfortable tonal-serial hybrid (in B-flat minor) cast in one long morphing arch of death-obsessed grimness and grotesquery revolving around the viola. The grimly subdued outer sections enclose a rather mocking and derisive dance of death for arthritic skeletons (the sick Shostakovich giving Death the finger, I should think). A number of groups provide the requisite focus and concentration to pull off this work, but it's the Shostakovich Quartet that best relates the various sections and ties everything together, and it does so in the most fluid and continuous (least episodic) way. The Beethoven Quartet's instruments are strung with the raw nerves of your dead ancestors, and its piercing playing penetrates straight to the spine like fingernails scraping a blackboard-it ain't pretty, but it's pretty compelling.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Elliott Carter - String Quartet #3


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

There are a few pieces that bother me when I used to leave Spotify autoplay on while I sleep:

- Adagio from Bartok's Music for Strings Percussion and Celesta

- Penderecki's Thernody

- Vaughan Williams 4th Symphony.

The last part of Strauss' Salome is kind of creepy.


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## Bill Cooke (May 20, 2017)

Prokofiev's Symphony No. 3 - which is based on his opera 'The Fiery Angel,' a very grim story that climaxes with a witch trial. The music alternates from frenetic and hysteric to quietly spooky and unsettling. 

A lot of the music by Edgar Varese is unsettling.

If you want alien sounding, I recommend Roberto Gerhard's Symphony No. 3 "Collages."


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

Has 21st century hysterical music happened yet ? Yawn , just woke up .


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Were you around for the Great Exodus of the Disaffected Modernists?


Hmm. I wonder what that was like.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

fluteman said:


> Hmm. I wonder what that was like.


You didn't miss much.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

pianoville said:


> Surprised no one has mentioned Bartoks Music for strings, percussion and celesta. For gods sake, it's in the soundtrack of a horror movie!


It's beautiful music. Not my horror show. Crumb's Black Angels is a lot more agitated. OP might want to listen to some Roberto Gerhard, Elliott Carter, Karl Hartmann, Wolfgang Rihm, Varese.


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## Flutter (Mar 26, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> I have learned here that many people find all contemporary and much modern music (certainly the atonal variety) unsettling. This makes me avoid the word as it hardly seems to describe the nature of music any more. The 20th Century has been a period when a lot of dark music was written but when music uses a language that is new to us and different it may often be that we hear it as unsettling even when that is not really what it is about. I mean no disrespect to or even disagreement with others who have posted suggestions.


Yeah, I've noticed the word "atonal" used as a pejorative a lot too. To me, it doesn't make much sense why the word would be used like this.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> That's good to hear. But, just out of curiosity, why would you talk about past "battles" about atonality/tonality and suggest that one was "long overdue" when you just joined TC in February? There hasn't been a major ruckus over what's called "modern music" for what seems like years. Were you around for the Great Exodus of the Disaffected Modernists?


"Battles" and "fights" are just words endemic to Canadian culture especially to those Canadians who happen to be hockey players ... "Battle for the puck in the corners..." Battle for position in front of the net"... "Five minute major for fighting"... They're just words that we use.. sports metaphors...

"Long overdue" was clearly an ironic take on the relative peacefulness of the current forum.

Was I around for the Great Exodus of the Disaffected Modernists? You tell me - read my posts - or have anyone on the forum do so and try to find similarities between what I've written and what any of the Disaffected Modernists have ever written. Wouldn't one of the current Disaffected or Affected Modernists who stayed here recognize the return of a prodigal child? Ask them who I'm supposed to be.

How would a complete stranger know about the Atonality/Tonality "ruckus" - probably just by accidentally stumbling across the thread while looking for something else and deciding to actually read it...

If I was indeed someone who returned would I regret having done so? - Probably...

If I was indeed a new member would I regret having joined? - Not quite there yet but pretty close...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mollie John said:


> "Battles" and "fights" are just words endemic to Canadian culture especially to those Canadians who happen to be hockey players ... "Battle for the puck in the corners..." Battle for position in front of the net"... "Five minute major for fighting"... They're just words that we use.. sports metaphors...
> 
> "Long overdue" was clearly an ironic take on the relative peacefulness of the current forum.
> 
> ...


That's quite a careful and detailed explanation for why the things you wrote didn't imply what they appeared rather distinctly to imply. I can assure you that I have no interest in investigating your past or in asking anyone else to do so. But people have been known to return to the forum with new identities. I just couldn't help wondering. I didn't intend to upset you. I'll go away now. :tiphat:


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Here's a nice little 20th-century charmer from Xenakis:






I'm reminded of a spoon scraping on a chalkboard, or it can be imagined as very creepy and unsettling. I wouldn't want to be inside one of these stringed instruments as it was being played, perhaps music for a pre-frontal weekday lobotomy. It seems that certain composers weren't exactly comfortable with their own existence in the 20th century.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Dirge said:


> Frank MARTIN: 6 Monologe aus "Jedermann"
> · Fischer-Dieskau, Martin/BPO [DG]
> 
> 
> ...


I love posts like this. Well done! I will try to remember this one...


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Mollie John said:


> If an atonality/tonality war were to break out (again) upon the forum (one is long overdue by the way and I didn't get a chance to partake in the last one) you would find me to be one of your fiercest allies _(except for those days when I'm feeling particularly lazy or uninspired in which case you'll have to settle for "languid allies")_ - _I'm firmly on the side of tolerance and open-mindedness and have little to no tolerance for those who are narrow-minded and intolerant..."_


Peace is boring. Let us start some flame war. Here are some basic rules, before we start
https://www.flayme.com/flame/05-psychology.shtml
_May your flames be witty, insulting, interesting, paradoxical, funny, illogical, caustic, sarcastic, even inconsistent - but never, ever, let them be boring. _

and now I am starting the flame war:
Modern classical music sucks because modern classical composers are talentless. It takes talent and a trueborn prodigy to compose something beautiful like a composition by Brahms, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Mendelssohn or Dvorak.
It takes none to write an atonal piece like Stockhausen, Nono, Ferneyhough or whoever these anonymous useless composers are - there's a reason no one performs their music.
The death of classical music as a developing artform actually rather mirrors the twisting of society by feminism. Concepts such as the "Emancipation of the dissonance" put forth by, again, Schoenberg, are almost painfully analogous to the narratives of feminism. They've declared war on the beauty and harmonies of classical music.
:tiphat:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Larkenfield said:


> Here's a nice little 20th-century charmer from Xenakis:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's perfectly understandable, considering that Xenakis lived the horrors of the war and was disfigured during the war.
He even said that in a explicit way, during a interview, when a musicologist asked him why he choosed the music as the reason of his life:

"It was because of my failures, my political failures, my sentimental failures and because of my wound. I felt almost annihilated. The only deep motivation, my only refuge was the music. Making music I felt less miserable. Around me there was nothing, everything was over. Before I saw the peace as a perspective without problems, without wars, with a completely renewed society."

I'd say that is also part of what makes the music of Xenakis so different and interesting.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^^ I do greatly like Xenakis but do also acknowledge that he goes for fairly unsubtle sounds. I would probably value his music even more highly if he could be a bit more nuanced in his creation of sound-worlds but he is the composer he was and I am the richer for having his music alongside all the other composers who I enjoy.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Jacck said:


> The death of classical music as a developing artform actually rather mirrors the twisting of society by feminism. Concepts such as the "Emancipation of the dissonance" put forth by, again, Schoenberg, are almost painfully analogous to the narratives of feminism. They've declared war on the beauty and harmonies of classical music.


Could you go into more detail about this? How does modern music mirror the narrative of feminism?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Xenakis is an example of how modern musical thinking took music from the sensual to the cerebral. Later on, we can hear sensuality reassert itself in the later works of Boulez, Spectralism, and Minimalism.

Sensuality is tied to harmonic practices which involve constant pitches producing consonances or "coloristic" effects.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Jacck said:


> Peace is boring. Let us start some flame war. Here are some basic rules, before we start
> https://www.flayme.com/flame/05-psychology.shtml
> _May your flames be witty, insulting, interesting, paradoxical, funny, illogical, caustic, sarcastic, even inconsistent - but never, ever, let them be boring. _
> 
> ...


Nice try, but - "I served with Woodduck, I knew Woodduck, Woodduck was a friend of mine, Jacck, you're no Woodduck" -

Insert sound effect - (Prolonged shouts and applause)… :tiphat:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mollie John said:


> Nice try, but - "I served with Woodduck, I knew Woodduck, Woodduck was a friend of mine, Jacck, you're no Woodduck" -
> 
> Insert sound effect - (Prolonged shouts and applause)… :tiphat:


Your loyalty to Woodduck is quite touching. Are you his PR "man?"

How about this: "Woodduck can do everything Jaack can do, backwards, and in high heels."


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> Your loyalty to Woodduck is quite touching. Are you his PR "man?"
> 
> How about this: "Woodduck can do everything Jaack can do, backwards, and in high heels."


In all seriousness I really don't know Woodduck at all other than as a first-rate prose writer but while I did have the snappy comeback line for Jacck I inserted Woodduck purely as a result of his sterling reputation rather than by any interaction that we ever had with the exception of the slight clash which was really the result of neither one of us having access to an English/Canadian - Canadian/English translation book.

The original line was from this -

The relevant portion of that transcript follows:

Tom Brokaw: Senator Quayle, I don't mean to beat this drum until it has no more sound in it. But to follow up on Brit Hume's question, when you said that it was a hypothetical situation, it is, sir, after all, the reason that we're here tonight, because you are running not just for Vice President-(Applause)-and if you cite the experience that you had in Congress, surely you must have some plan in mind about what you would do if it fell to you to become President of the United States, as it has to so many Vice Presidents just in the last 25 years or so.

Quayle: Let me try to answer the question one more time. I think this is the fourth time that I've had this question.

Brokaw: The third time.

Quayle: Three times that I've had this question-and I will try to answer it again for you, as clearly as I can, because the question you're asking is, "What kind of qualifications does Dan Quayle have to be president," "What kind of qualifications do I have," and "What would I do in this kind of a situation?" And what would I do in this situation? ... I have far more experience than many others that sought the office of vice president of this country.* I have as much experience in the Congress as Jack Kennedy did when he sought the presidency*. I will be prepared to deal with the people in the Bush administration, if that unfortunate event would ever occur.

Judy Woodruff: Senator Bentsen?

Bentsen: *Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy. I knew Jack Kennedy. Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy. (Prolonged shouts and applause.)* What has to be done in a situation like that is to call in the-

Woodruff: (Admonishing applauders) Please, please, once again you are only taking time away from your own candidate.

Quayle: That was really uncalled for, Senator. (Shouts and applause.)

Bentsen: You are the one that was making the comparison, Senator-and I'm one who knew him well. And frankly I think you are so far apart in the objectives you choose for your country that I did not think the comparison was well-taken.

As usual... if you want to know something about American history ask a Canadian...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Yeah, I remember that.



Mollie John said:


> In all seriousness I really don't know Woodduck at all other than as a first-rate prose writer but while I did have the snappy comeback line for Jacck I inserted Woodduck purely as a result of his sterling reputation rather than by any interaction that we ever had with the exception of the slight clash which was really the result of neither one of us having access to an English/Canadian - Canadian/English translation book.


For all we know, you ARE Woodduck. As Woodduck himself pointed out, how would you know about "The Great Tonal/Atonal Insurrection"?

...or Woodduck's "sterling reputation?" Even that could be questioned, as I cited a PM from another member (who shall remain anonymous) which told me:



> Good day, millionrainbows, one of the reasons for not participating in the discussions is for me not to fall victim to what you describe.





> One unfortunate sentence and you may be burned to the ground.
> This has happened to me before and I have stayed away for a year and am now back under a different forum name.
> I know from a valued forum member who has left the forum that he too has been approached aggressively. It almost seems that (W) is the conscience and ruler of this forum. I don't think this is changing for the better.


In other words, the more you support Woodduck, or any other member for that matter, the more you will be suspected as a "double identity" created for that purpose: leverage.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Could you go into more detail about this? How does modern music mirror the narrative of feminism?


 Modern culture tells us that short skrillex haircuts, defiling the body with metal shrapnel and inked graffiti, and massive, revolting body fat is "beautiful." This message is so successful, that today, in the west, it is extremely difficult to find a female below the age of 25 who has not purposefully destroyed her physical beauty in multiple ways.

As this worship of ugliness has marginalized natural beauty, likewise, modern classical music teaches us that dissonant chords, out-of-key incongruous sounds, and loud, harsh noises are pleasant and desirable. Gone are the naturally pleasing chords and intonations which music theory teaches are good.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> Your loyalty to Woodduck is quite touching. Are you his PR "man?"
> 
> How about this: "Woodduck can do everything Jaack can do, backwards, and in high heels."


Don't put "man" in quotes - it's considered bad form to question one's gender or sexuality.

I'm Canadian... my avatar is Canadian... now that we have that settled to everyone's satisfaction allow me to express my thanks and appreciation of your apparently endless number of posts in which you refer to my avatar as "smokin' hot" which quite truthfully it is... as it should be... as I am indeed quite truthfully "smokin' hot" otherwise I would have chosen an entirely different avatar...

Again, to be quite honest, Woodduck can do everything Jacck can do, backwards, and in high heels...

You have to admire genuine talent and as with Wagner, I greatly admire the artist whilst simultaneously loathing the man... :lol:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mollie John said:


> Don't put "man" in quotes - it's considered bad form to question one's gender or sexuality.
> 
> I'm Canadian... my avatar is Canadian... now that we have that settled to everyone's satisfaction allow me to express my thanks and appreciation of your apparently endless number of posts in which you refer to my avatar as "smokin' hot" which quite truthfully it is... as it should be... as I am indeed quite truthfully "smokin' hot" otherwise I would have chosen an entirely different avatar...
> 
> ...


So this means...I still have a chance? Be still, my heart...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Xenakis is an example of how modern musical thinking took music from the sensual to the cerebral. Later on, we can hear sensuality reassert itself in the later works of Boulez, Spectralism, and Minimalism.


Onestly I hear also a lot of viscerality in Xenakis's music.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Jacck said:


> Modern culture tells us that short skrillex haircuts, defiling the body with metal shrapnel and inked graffiti, and massive, revolting body fat is "beautiful." This message is so successful, that today, in the west, it is extremely difficult to find a female below the age of 25 who has not purposefully destroyed her physical beauty in multiple ways.
> 
> As this worship of ugliness has marginalized natural beauty, likewise, modern classical music teaches us that dissonant chords, out-of-key incongruous sounds, and loud, harsh noises are pleasant and desirable. Gone are the naturally pleasing chords and intonations which music theory teaches are good.


modern music doesn't teach that dissonant chords (that were used also by Bach and Mozart) are pleasant. Or better, that's not the exactly the point.
Modern music teaches us that beauty can reflect also the imperfections (something that the japanese knew already, like in the wabi sabi concept), the contradictions and the pain of our world. And THAT can be desirable, since those things are part of the human experience and we can relate with that.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Sorry to disagree with others, but I hear nothing of the cerebral in Xenakis's _Ergma_. It sounds closer to a visceral agonizing scream, a kick in the guts or worse, than something on the cerebral level... I hear no thinking in it; it's more of a brut force. It never lets up, like the tension of being in a war zone... There's no relief from its dissonance. I believe that you have to feel the strident kick in the guts in a work like this. But cerebral, I don't believe so... He had loss and violence in his life. He was emotionally scarred starting with the early death of his mother, when was only five, and talked about it as a traumatic experience that deeply scarred him. During WW2, he joined the National Liberation Front and later became part of its armed resistance. I get the sense of those violent events in something like _Ergma_ but not in all of his works.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

norman bates said:


> modern music doesn't teach that dissonant chords (that were used also by Bach and Mozart) are pleasant. Or better, that's not the exactly the point.
> Modern music teaches us that beauty can reflect also the imperfections (something that the japanese knew already, like in the wabi sabi concept), the contradictions and the pain of our world. And THAT can be desirable, since those things are part of the human experience and we can relate with that.


I have no problem, when ugliness is mixed with beauty to create a contrast, but why has the depiction of ugliness become the mainstream of the 20th century classical music and the beauty got completely lost?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

The whole thing about modern music not being "beautiful" usually comes down to not knowing the kind of modern music you'd like, having a far more narrow definition of "beauty" than I can understand, or both.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

science said:


> The whole thing about modern music not being "beautiful" usually comes down to not knowing the kind of modern music you'd like, having a far more narrow definition of "beauty" than I can understand, or both.


I have listened to most of the major modern composers and I DO enjoy a lot of this music. I even like Schoenberg a lot. Yet, modern music is rarely uplifting the way that old music is. The moods that it mostly evokes are anxiety, depression, insanity or feelings of something strange, bizarre etc. Show me a piece by Nono, Stockhausen, Xenakis, Ferneyhough etc. that you would call uplifting.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Jacck said:


> The moods that it mostly evokes are anxiety, depression, insanity or feelings of something strange, bizarre etc.


That statement is either -

a.) An insightful well-reasoned analysis of the history of the 20th century...

b.) An insightful well-reasoned analysis of the entire operatic canon from Monteverdi onwards...

c.) Both...

Unless you are currently being held captive at gun- and/or knife-point and being forced against your will to listen to contemporary classical music allow me to respectfully suggest that you refrain from listening to such.

It isn't mandatory and even though you're in the Czech Republic you haven't been compelled to do anything since 1989 and since it's been 30 years now (Šťastné výročí - svoboda je úžasná!) you can throw off the shackles and chains and listen to whatever your heart fancies without fear.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Jacck said:


> I have listened to most of the major modern composers and I DO enjoy a lot of this music. I even like Schoenberg a lot. Yet, modern music is rarely uplifting the way that old music is.


Exactly!



> The moods that it mostly evokes are anxiety, depression, insanity or feelings of something strange, bizarre etc.


Exactly!



> Show me a piece by Nono, Stockhausen, Xenakis, Ferneyhough etc. that you would call uplifting.


Impossible.

EDIT: Well, it might be possible...in fact I heard some early Xenakis that was not ugly.






From the same year here is some Stockhausen that is not as ugly as his later garbage...a few moments (very few and very brief) that are lovely:


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Mollie John said:


> Don't put "man" in quotes - it's considered bad form to question one's gender or sexuality.
> 
> I'm Canadian... my avatar is Canadian... now that we have that settled to everyone's satisfaction allow me to express my thanks and appreciation of your apparently endless number of posts in which you refer to my avatar as "smokin' hot" which quite truthfully it is... as it should be... as I am indeed quite truthfully "smokin' hot" otherwise I would have chosen an entirely different avatar...
> 
> ...


Your avatar is Barbara Hannigan (the living singer I most revere) isn't it?

Are you saying in your last sentence that you admire Woodduck's art while loathing him? I'm sure you are not but it reads that way.


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## Atrahasis (Aug 5, 2015)




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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> Your avatar is Barbara Hannigan (the living singer I most revere) isn't it?
> 
> Are you saying in your last sentence that you admire Woodduck's art while loathing him? I'm sure you are not but it reads that way.


Woodduck will immediately recognize the "admire the artist/loathe the man" reference and will either find it amusing or will say something that will make me cry like a schoolgirl who lost her left shoe in a snowstorm...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mollie John said:


> See that LOL emoticon at the end of the sentence? - This one - :lol: ? - Technically that means that you're not actually supposed to take the statement seriously - that it is meant to be humourous.
> 
> Woodduck will immediately recognize the "admire the artist/loathe the man" reference and will either find it amusing or will say something that will make me cry like a schoolgirl who lost her left shoe in a snowstorm...


Aww, crap, it's Barbara Hannigan? My fantasy is shattered. And since it's a singer, that makes it even more likely that this is another one of Woodduck's opera buddies.

"Cry like a schoolgirl?" That's effective, very effective.

Well if nobody else will give the explicit answer, I will!

@Enthusiast: "admire the artist/loathe the man" refers to Wagner, man, Wagner! Wake up and smell the coffee!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Jacck said:


> I have no problem, when ugliness is mixed with beauty to create a contrast, but why has the depiction of ugliness become the mainstream of the 20th century classical music and the beauty got completely lost?


Beauty definitely wasn't lost in the twentieth century.
The fact that there's a lot of terrible music (something probably unavoidable, since it's been a century that has probably produced more art and changes of all kinds than all the centuries before) but there's a lot of beautiful music. Beatiful music in a very traditional sense, extremely lyrical and melodic































and music that is still absolutely beautiful but in a different way


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Jacck said:


> I have listened to most of the major modern composers and I DO enjoy a lot of this music. I even like Schoenberg a lot. Yet, modern music is rarely uplifting the way that old music is. The moods that it mostly evokes are anxiety, depression, insanity or feelings of something strange, bizarre etc. Show me a piece by Nono, Stockhausen, Xenakis, Ferneyhough etc. that you would call uplifting.


Art does not have to be necessarily uplifting.
I'd say the same for the a lot of art of Goya, Van Gogh or even before (el Greco, Grunewald, Bosch). And they didn't live in the twentieth century.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

norman bates said:


> Art does not have to be necessarily uplifting.
> I'd say the same for the a lot of art of Goya, Van Gogh or even before (el Greco, Grunewald, Bosch). And they didn't live in the twentieth century.
> 
> View attachment 114931
> ...


This is a typical "cherry picking" response, i.e., finding scattered and rare examples of pre-20th century art that is not uplifting or beautiful in the usual sense. The reality: with pre-20th century art, the aspiration to create beauty and to uplift was the norm; with 20th and 21st art, to create ugliness was/is the norm.

And for me, art has to beautify and uplift.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

This has vocal sounds in it which are unsettling.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

ArsMusica said:


> This is a typical "cherry picking" response, i.e., finding scattered and rare examples of pre-20th century art that is not uplifting or beautiful in the usual sense. The reality: with pre-20th century art, the aspiration to create beauty and to uplift was the norm; with 20th and 21st art, to create ugliness was/is the norm.


even if so, does that mean that those examples are not beautiful? Does the fact that those were not the norm diminish their value?



ArsMusica said:


> And *for me*, art has to beautify and uplift.


that's the point: for you. But that does not mean that it makes art that is not uplifting less valid or expressive or... beautiful.
And it must be said that uplifting is a very vague term in the first place: even the most depressive art can be uplifting.
Schubert's Winterreise, Peter Warlock's The curlew. Gesualdo's madrigals.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

ArsMusica said:


> This is a typical "cherry picking" response, i.e., finding scattered and rare examples of pre-20th century art that is not uplifting or beautiful in the usual sense. The reality: with pre-20th century art, the aspiration to create beauty and to uplift was the norm; with 20th and 21st art, to create ugliness was/is the norm.
> 
> And for me, art has to beautify and uplift.


So what would you prefer? That we return to the Nazi idea of "degenerate music," i.e. "Entartete Musik?"

Remember, fascists opposed modernism, too. This was why Ligeti was so committed to the avant grade, because it was forbidden under the Soviets.

HE WHO DOES NOT KNOW HISTORY IS DOOMED TO REPEAT IT!


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> So what would you prefer? That we return to the Nazi idea of "degenerate music," i.e. "Entartete Musik?"
> 
> Remember, fascists opposed modernism, too. This was why Ligeti was so committed to the avant grade, because it was forbidden under the Soviets.
> 
> HE WHO DOES NOT KNOW HISTORY IS DOOMED TO REPEAT IT!


Come on MR, you know better that to use the straw man logical fallacy...or maybe you don't....


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

ArsMusica said:


> Come on MR, you know better that to use the straw man logical fallacy...or maybe you don't....


Believe me, Ars, it could have been worse, much worse! Look up Entartete Musik on Amazon. :lol:


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> Aww, crap, it's Barbara Hannigan? My fantasy is shattered.


It isn't if I'm actually Barbara Hannigan...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

If you really are Barbara Hannigan, then I doubt that you would have gotten banned.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

ArsMusica said:


> This is a typical "cherry picking" response, i.e., finding scattered and rare examples of pre-20th century art that is not uplifting or beautiful in the usual sense. The reality: with pre-20th century art, the aspiration to create beauty and to uplift was the norm; with 20th and 21st art, to create ugliness was/is the norm.


I can't imagine what moves you to make this statement. Much as I try, I can't think of any evidence that supports it. I can certainly understand if you hold aesthetic principles that lead you to prefer pre-20th century art to art of the 20th and 21st centuries in most instances, or even in every instance if you insist. But to infer simply from your own subjective taste that artists in the 20th and 21st centuries have aspired to create 'ugliness' while earlier artists aspired to create 'beauty' is to misapprehend the concept of taste. Your taste is to a great extent the product of your culture, your environment, your education, your upbringing, your age, your life circumstances and your intellect, all of which may be similar to those of many others, but in their particulars, are unique to you. The 18th-century empiricist David Hume published an important essay on these issues in 1757 called Of the Standard of Taste. As Hume notes, one can become more educated, refine one's tastes, and become a better critic, but other factors such as one's culture, background and age are pretty much unavoidable.

Your or anyone else's particular tastes therefore can establish little as to the aspirations of artists of this or earlier eras. As far as I can tell after studying this area, artists nowadays have pretty much the same aspirations they have always had. They may want to uplift, or inspire, or excite, or amaze, or intrigue, or amuse, or inform, or incite any number of emotions and reactions, but above all they aspire to convey to their audience ideas that they find to be significant in some way.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

The frenetic rad jazz of the 1930's had its home in the new black and white animated toons - dancing flowers and all that . Modern art music abstractions may not be suitable for anything less than the positively innovative . Horror seems ho-hum . I suppose I should venture a suggestion , ok , I don't know until I shall draw and sing at the same time while feeling unsettled . Could be soon - springtime is easy travelling .


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Haydn70 said:


> This is a typical "cherry picking" response, i.e., finding scattered and rare examples of pre-20th century art that is not uplifting or beautiful in the usual sense. The reality: with pre-20th century art, the aspiration to create beauty and to uplift was the norm; with 20th and 21st art, to create ugliness was/is the norm.
> 
> And for me, art has to beautify and uplift.


I have no problem with this. But for me beauty and ugly doesn't matter, as long as it is well done and interesting. The most requested music on the classical radio no doubt is easy to listen to, but most of the time is short on content to me.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I believe that much of the 20th century music was an attempt to heal the horrors that human beings had experienced in that violent and turbulent century. 50 million people that died as a result of the War is only one example. The Pandora’s box of the unconscious was unleashed and came fully out in the open. It was a noble attempt that sometimes failed but at least the composers were able to get some out of it out of their system and there’s something to be said for that. Since the great opening of the box, the overall balance in the music, the return of melody, the inspiration, spirituality and the overall power of the music to bring entertainment and healing, has returned. There’s never been greater choice.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Phil loves classical said:


> I have no problem with this. But for me beauty and ugly doesn't matter, as long as it is well done and interesting. The most requested music on the classical radio no doubt is easy to listen to, but most of the time is short on content to me.


Yes, well put. Of course, depending on how you define terms, "beauty" and "well done and interesting" can mean similar things. But the last two words of your post are the key ones.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Larkenfield said:


> I believe that much of the 20th century music was an attempt to heal the horrors that human beings had experienced in that violent and turbulent century. 50 million people that died as a result of the War is only one example. The Pandora's box of the unconscious was unleashed and came fully out in the open. It was a noble attempt that sometimes failed but at least the composers were able to get some out of it out of their system and there's something to be said for that. Since the great opening of the box, the overall balance in the music, the return of melody, the inspiration, spirituality and the overall power of the music to bring entertainment and healing, has returned. There's never been greater choice.


Yes. But art always reflects the culture, society and era in which it is created, doesn't it? And if it reflects those things in an accurate and telling way, it can hardly be said to be a failure.


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## sagarmatha (Aug 12, 2020)

hi !

i'd recommend *toru takemitsu* in general.

i also like "rhymes / constellations / symphony no 2" by *lang istvan*.

hope this helps !

f.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Haydn70 said:


> This is a typical "cherry picking" response, i.e., finding scattered and rare examples of pre-20th century art that is not uplifting or beautiful in the usual sense. The reality: with pre-20th century art, the aspiration to create beauty and to uplift was the norm; with 20th and 21st art, to create ugliness was/is the norm.
> 
> And for me, art has to beautify and uplift.


This is, of course, nonsense! Nor do I believe for a moment that you are familiar enough with the modern and contemporary eras to be able to pinpoint "the norm". I can think of no period where it is more difficult to arrive at a single norm.

Art has often portrayed ugly subjects (hell, Christ being tortured, tragedies etc) but the result is still often uplifting and deeply satisfying. It still is.


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