# Saint Saens and his Aquarium: impressionism before Debussy?



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm sure that almost everybody here knows this little gem. It's one of those pieces that is so ubiquitous that even if the music is beautiful tends to be listened more as a background. But today I've heard during a tv program and I've realized that it's a piece that doesn't sound as romantic music at all. 
This to me sounds definitely in spirit much closer to Debussy and impressionism (I know that Debussy hated the term) and the dreamy atmospheres of the "genre", but it predates by six years the Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune, that is usually considered the first example of impressionist music.
So what do you think? It should be considered like impressionism?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I voted yes, although I don't know if it meets the musical complexity criteria (or if there are any complexity criteria).

I was surprised that you think it's listened to more as a background, although I won't deny it was highly effective in the movie The Days of Heaven.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2018)

I guess that the nature of the piece it comes from, a suite of character pieces, naturally lends itself to music less of a 'developmental' nature. There are much shorter moments in other major works that certainly have this _sound_ but in the context of a larger development section or as a contrasting passage within a larger more traditional structure. As this is a very short piece, it seems to make sense to me that it's possible for him to use this texture and orchestration, the 'spirit' to use your term, in a way that is more uniform. In a longer piece it would probably come across as a more typical nice splash of contrasting orchestral colour in an overall Romantic movement.

Btw, I only voted 'no' because I find the term 'impressionism' to be so ill-defined that we may as well just be talking about _Debussy's aesthetic_ or _Ravel's aesthetic_ or _Lili Boulanger's aesthetic_.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Nope. Just because he used the etherial sound of the glass harmonica that doesn't make it impressionistic. The harmonies are thoroughly grounded in Saint-Saens' 19th c method. The phrasing is still in 2-4-8 bar structures. Debussy is far more advanced harmonically and structurally. But I love this work of Saint-Saens. Too bad that in performance you usually have to settle for a glockenspiel...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> Nope. Just because he used the etherial sound of the glass harmonica that doesn't make it impressionistic.


So do you consider it romantic music? 
I'm considering more the atmosphere and as I've said the "spirit" of the piece. It's a dreamy, descriptive piece that I see aesthetically much closer to Debussy or Ravel than to Beethoven, Schumann, Wagner, Brahms and the romantic movement of the period.

And by the way, are you sure that harmonically it's just functional harmony? Because I could be wrong but my ears give me the impression that there's more than that.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

No. It's a lovely little tone picture that sounds like a cross between a Chopin nocturne and Tchaikovsky's sugar plum fairy.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The harmonic language isn't really like Debussy or Ravel. It's just common triads alternating with chromatic neighbor chords with some parallel diminished triads thrown in. The harmonic bones are simple and functional, the chromatic stuff is just decorative fluff. I think your impressionistic impression is likely due mostly to the orchestration?


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I don't know about the technicalities, but I think the precursor to Debussy's and Ravel's impressionistic piano music can be found in Liszt' Années de pèlerinage. Liszt himself played his "Au bord d'une source" for Debussy in Rome. Seems to me that someone was inspired and took things further.

Au bord d'une source




Les jeux d'eaux à la Villa d'Este


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> The harmonic language isn't really like Debussy or Ravel. It's just common triads alternating with chromatic neighbor chords with some parallel diminished triads thrown in. The harmonic bones are simple and functional, the chromatic stuff is just decorative fluff. I think your impressionistic impression is likely due mostly to the orchestration?


as I've said, my opinion is due mainly to the aesthetic character of the piece that for me doesn't fit at all with dreamy contemplative and descriptive nature of the piece.
So harmony is just a part of the equation. (For instance a opposite example could be Delius who is often seen as a impressionist composer, but to me his music is definitely romantic in character. )


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

DeepR said:


> I don't know about the technicalities, but I think the precursor to Debussy's and Ravel's impressionistic piano music can be found in Liszt' Années de pèlerinage. Liszt himself played his "Au bord d'une source" for Debussy in Rome. Seems to me that someone was inspired and took things further.
> 
> Au bord d'une source
> 
> ...


yes, there are probably other examples too of impressionism before impressionism. Fanelli for instance with his Tableaux symphonique, or Alkan with pieces like Le vent. I think it could be an interesting topic.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I think no as well, and agree with previous statements regarding the basic use of harmony - not impressionistic. I do agree the piece has a certain dream like feel to it, but that in itself is not really a precursor to impressionism. Wagner, Liszt and Satie all had bigger impacts and I would say Faure more so than Saint Saens. 

I think Saint Saens did have some influence on Ravel, but more for things like orchestration, nothing harmonic, and nothing that really defines the aesthetic of the modern French composition during the early 20th century.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

tdc said:


> I think no as well, and agree with previous statements regarding the basic use of harmony - not impressionistic. I do agree the piece has a certain dream like feel to it, but that in itself is not really a precursor to impressionism. Wagner, Liszt and Satie all had bigger impacts and I would say Faure more so than Saint Saens.
> 
> I think Saint Saens did have some influence on Ravel, but more for things like orchestration, nothing harmonic, and nothing that really defines the aesthetic of the modern French composition during the early 20th century.


Besides the fact that I'm not talking about Saint Saens but only about two minutes of his entire work of his life, everyone is reducing everything to harmony like (yep, the harmony doesn't sound as Debussy therefore it's not impressionism), but impressionism was more than that, was a complete aesthetic change. Wagner could have been an influence on Debussy but certainly was (at least everything I've heard from him) as distant from impressionism as it gets. It's hard to find a composer who represents romanticism more than Wagner.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I voted yes. There is a strong impression of an image, to me it doesn't have to have the whole tones, etc. of Debussy to achieve that. Even Vivaldi's 4 seasons are impressionistic to me though.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

norman bates said:


> Besides the fact that I'm not talking about Saint Saens but only about two minutes of his entire work of his life, everyone is reducing everything to harmony like (yep, the harmony doesn't sound as Debussy therefore it's not impressionism), but impressionism was more than that, was a complete aesthetic change. *Wagner could have been an influence on Debussy but certainly was (at least everything I've heard from him) as distant from impressionism as it gets.* It's hard to find a composer who represents romanticism more than Wagner.


An aesthetic change, yes, but Debussy admired in Wagner's late works - especially _Parsifal_ - the subtle, glowing orchestral blends, the long-sustained harmonic suspension and ambiguity, as well as the freely developing forms based on motivic transformations. _Parsifal_ hovers over _Pelleas et Melisande_ to an extent that exasperated Debussy himself.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

norman bates said:


> Besides the fact that I'm not talking about Saint Saens but only about two minutes of his entire work of his life, everyone is reducing everything to harmony like (yep, the harmony doesn't sound as Debussy therefore it's not impressionism), but impressionism was more than that, was a complete aesthetic change. Wagner could have been an influence on Debussy but certainly was (at least everything I've heard from him) as distant from impressionism as it gets. It's hard to find a composer who represents romanticism more than Wagner.


Harmony is the primary aspect that distinguishes what people loosely call 'impressionism' from earlier styles though. For clarity I am referring to the Modern French aesthetic from the late 19th and early 20th centuries, not whatever 'impressionism' Phil is talking about referencing Vivaldi.

Other aspects include differences in the way chords function in relation to each other and a moving away from the dominance of Sonata form, none of which I think are characteristic elements of Saint Saens' music. In addition to the other composers I mentioned in my previous post Chabrier, some of the late Russian Romantics and Gamelan music also would be aspects that I think were more impactful on the style over all than the work of Saint Saens. I realize you are just thinking about this 2 minute piece, but the way I think of Impressionism I just don't really hear it, aside from maybe some vague superficial similarities on a surface level.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

tdc said:


> Harmony is the primary aspect that distinguishes what people loosely call 'impressionism' from earlier styles though. For clarity I am referring to the Modern French aesthetic from the late 19th and early 20th centuries, not whatever 'impressionism' Phil is talking about referencing Vivaldi.
> 
> Other aspects include differences in the way chords function in relation to each other and a moving away from the dominance of Sonata form, none of which I think are characteristic elements of Saint Saens' music. In addition to the other composers I mentioned in my previous post Chabrier, some of the late Russian Romantics and Gamelan music also would be aspects that I think were more impactful on the style over all than the work of Saint Saens. I realize you are just thinking about this 2 minute piece, but the way I think of Impressionism I just don't really hear it, aside from maybe some vague superficial similarities on a surface level.


There is no real definition of impressionism in music, it isn't even a technique, but a loose term, unlike in visual arts. Debussy called those that categorized his music as Impressionistic "imbeciles". So basically whatever is full of imagery can be called impressionistic.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

No, I don't think so… And to me, it doesn't sound like an "aquarium" to begin with. Not impressionistic but somewhat magical. This piece, or a take on it, was used in the film _Chocolat_ in the beginning to establish a magical feel. It's obvious where it came from. But no, it still sounds a little too harmonically literal to be impressionistic.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> There is no real definition of impressionism in music, it isn't even a technique, but a loose term, unlike in visual arts. Debussy called those that categorized his music as Impressionistic "imbeciles". So basically whatever is full of imagery can be called impressionistic.


Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony is full of imagery...


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2018)

Having checked out one of the previous threads discussing impressionism, noting disagreement about what it actually meant and the extent to which it is relevant to Debussy, I'd say yes, it's 'impressionistic', but as others have said, it doesn't have much to do with Debussy.

It's also one of the creepiest pieces of music I know.


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## BiscuityBoyle (Feb 5, 2018)

In every sense - harmony, rhythm and even "atmosphere" - it has everything to do with Tchaikovsky and incredibly little to do with Debussy. It's closer to Mendelssohn than to Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

BiscuityBoyle said:


> In every sense - harmony, rhythm and even "atmosphere" - it has everything to do with Tchaikovsky and incredibly little to do with Debussy. It's closer to Mendelssohn than to Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune.


I agree with the comparison with Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy, a piece that according to Wikipedia "Choreographer Marius Petipa wanted the Sugar Plum Fairy's music to sound like drops of water shooting from a fountain".
Even the fact that it's another descriptive piece about water tells to me that one could see a relation with impressionism: Debussy himself was obsessed with water and wrote dreamy piece to evoke the idea of water like "Reflects dans l'eau".
There's nothing of the thunderous nature of romantic music, the grandeur of the genre, the tortured soul. Maybe even if the harmony is different, there was in any case already an aesthetic change in the last decades of the nineteen century. Like, it wasn't already proper impressionism, but something going in that direction.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

norman bates said:


> There's nothing of the thunderous nature of romantic music, the grandeur of the genre, the tortured soul. Maybe even if the harmony is different, there was in any case already an aesthetic change in the last decades of the nineteen century. Like, it wasn't already proper impressionism, but something going in that direction.


The Romantic Era produced hundreds of delicate miniatures depicting natural phenomena entirely free of tortured grandeur. Much of Debussy's piano music, whether or not one wishes to call it impressionistic, is in this tradition. Do you know this one by Schumann?:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> The Romantic Era produced hundreds of delicate miniatures depicting natural phenomena entirely free of tortured grandeur. Much of Debussy's piano music, whether or not one wishes to call it impressionistic, is in this tradition. Do you know this one by Schumann?:


No I didn't know it and I really like it, so thank you. But in this case I definitely see a romantic aesthetic. I'm not sure how to explain the difference I hear, I have to think about it but I had listened this piece without knowing it's Schuman I'm sure I would have said it's from a romantic composer.


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## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

norman bates said:


> I'm sure that almost everybody here knows this little gem. It's one of those pieces that is so ubiquitous that even if the music is beautiful tends to be listened more as a background.....


I'm one of the few, I guess, that _didn't_ know this little gem (& it _is_ a gem; I think it's lovely) at least not as a Saint Saens piece ~ but I instantly recognized it as the prologue music from the Disney film "Beauty & The Beast". Not the _exact_ thing, of course, but it's obvious where Alan Menken found his inspiration!


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Phil loves classical said:


> There is no real definition of impressionism in music, it isn't even a technique, but a loose term, unlike in visual arts. Debussy called those that categorized his music as Impressionistic "imbeciles". So basically whatever is full of imagery can be called impressionistic.


It is a loose term, but in the context of music I use it to describe the harmonic language generally in use by the French Modernists, largely having its origins with Debussy. This is what I think the general meaning is, though perhaps some people are more narrow in restricting the term only to Debussy.

I think the majority of terms used to describe musical eras or styles are imperfect or fall short in some way, but they can still take on a more objective meaning than what you are suggesting. I don't see the term as being that bad relative to others commonly used like "Expressionist" or "Rococo" etc. which also aren't perfect yet still have a general understood meaning when used in the context of music.

Debussy as an artist seemed hyper sensitive to being categorized or even compared with other composers, I think this is the reason for his comments and they are an over reaction.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

norman bates said:


> No I didn't know it and I really like it, so thank you. But in this case I definitely see a romantic aesthetic. I'm not sure how to explain the difference I hear, I have to think about it but I had listened this piece without knowing it's Schuman I'm sure I would have said it's from a romantic composer.


Yes, there is certainly a difference of sensibility and I get what you're saying. "Aquarium" is certainly more coloristic. In this case, however, I process it more as a matter of German vs. French rather than Romantic vs. Impressionist, if that makes sense.


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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

This is actually the closest S-S came to writing in an impressionistic style......


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Saint-Saens on Debussy's Prelude: "It's as much a piece of music as the palette a painter has worked from is a painting"

So, not a fan then!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

classical yorkist said:


> Saint-Saens on Debussy's Prelude: "It's as much a piece of music as the palette a painter has worked from is a painting"
> 
> So, not a fan then!


I get the impression that S-S was not only notoriously but also aggressively conservative in his views on composers. He seems to have thought of himself as the senior composer of his time while many others thought he was well behind the times.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Anankasmo said:


> This is actually the closest S-S came to writing in an impressionistic style......


I agree this is the closest thing to Impressionism I've heard by Saint Saens too, however since it was composed 5 years after Debussy's _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_, also doesn't qualify as being Impressionism before Debussy.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I voted yes to a degree without thinking at all, now that I've actually thought about it I wish I could change my vote.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Don't know about Impressionism, but I remember reading that Carnival of the Animals had quite a few things in it which where unique for the period. Bitonality comes to mind (possibly in the Cuckoo movement?) but in any case Saint-Saens composed this for private performance at his musical soirees, so he wasn't working within the strictures or expectations of the time. He was so worried that it would not be taken seriously that (apart from The Swan) it was published posthumously. It seemed to fit the post World War I era perfectly, of people wanting to let go and enjoy life during The Roaring Twenties, when profundity was out and fun was in. Members of Les Six admired Saint-Saens, as did Ravel despite his famous howitzers quote.

Saint-Saens was more or less seen as an innovator during his younger years, but as he got older he became a fossil (and not nearly as fun as the ones in Carnival). During his old age he was given many accolades, and although his music has more or less stayed in the performing repertoire since, he has had a dip or two. There is a scene in the movie Florence Foster Jenkins where the soprano played by Meryl Streep is auditioning pianists. As he plays The Swan, Cosme McMoon is poo-pooed by pianists waiting outside, they whisper that it is sentimental trash. Nevertheless, McMoon gets the job.

There's a parallel with Debussy - he too worried that if he composed something seen as frivolous by the cognoscenti, he would be judged as lowbrow. The pianist who played the premiere of Children's Corner Suite reminisced about how the composer was anxiously waiting outside the hall, and was greatly relieved when told that it was received with great applause. By the end of his career, Debussy came to abhor the Debussystes, the clique who pressured him to innovate more and more, yet he felt that Jeux was the highest point he could reach before being pushed over the edge. Its well known that Debussy never once publicly countered Saint-Saens' many jibes. I think he knew his limitations in terms of the establishment, and in any case why make enemies when you have plenty in your own camp?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Larkenfield said:


> I believe _faune_ was first introduced in 1894? But S-S's 1892 Etude still sounds like it was influenced by Debussy.


But: "The Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun has pretty sonority, but one does not find in it the least musical idea, properly speaking; it resembles a piece of music as the palette used by an artist in his work resembles a picture. Debussy did not create a style; he cultivated an absence of style, logic, and common sense." -- Camille Saint-Saëns


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Sid James said:


> ...his music has more or less stayed in the performing repertoire...?


Unfortunately, it's a very, very tiny part of his output that has stayed: the 3rd symphony, one or two piano concertos, one concerto each for violin and cello, Danse Macabre, the Samson and Delilah Bacchanal and that's about. The bassoon sonata remains quite popular in the bassoon world. There's so much more and it's sadly neglected. Even Carnival of the Animals I've only heard once in concert, and it's a delightful work. Maybe in four years, the 100th anniversary of his death, he'll get the Big Box treatment like Debussy and Bernstein this year, and performers will explore some of the forgotten works.


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