# The Unique Timbre of Upright Pianos



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Very good for Jazz. Why is that?


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## prlj (10 mo ago)

I'm basing this on no research whatsoever - but to me they're much brighter sounding than your typical grand. The treble gives it the best chance to cut through the drum kit and bass.

Second guess - jazz evolved in small clubs. An upright was cheaper, and easier to fit into the space. So it became the sound of jazz that we've grown accustomed to out of necessity, and not necessarily by choice. 

I absolutely admit that I have no idea of these are valid guesses or not. Just hunches.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

prlj said:


> I'm basing this on no research whatsoever - but to me they're much brighter sounding than your typical grand. The treble gives it the best chance to cut through the drum kit and bass.
> 
> Second guess - jazz evolved in small clubs. An upright was cheaper, and easier to fit into the space. So it became the sound of jazz that we've grown accustomed to out of necessity, and not necessarily by choice.
> 
> I absolutely admit that I have no idea of these are valid guesses or not. Just hunches.


I like where your head is good sir!


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

Despite jazz pianists use to amplify their instrument, which would enable upright pianos, they prefer grand pianos. Not only for the faster keys.

Jazz pianists almost unanimously prefer Bösendorfer, while classical pianists split among Steinway, Kawai, also Fazioli and rarely Bösendorfer. I ignore their reasons. To my ears, Bösendorfer keeps a clear elocution in very complicated music, while Steinway and co mix up the notes.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Very good for Jazz. Why is that?


Thelonious Monk would get up and stroll/dance around the grand piano during a performance set. Uprights were usually out of the way, against a wall, so ouch!.. Just kidding!


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Enthalpy said:


> Despite jazz pianists use to amplify their instrument, which would enable upright pianos, they prefer grand pianos. Not only for the faster keys.
> 
> Jazz pianists almost unanimously prefer Bösendorfer, while classical pianists split among Steinway, Kawai, also Fazioli and rarely Bösendorfer. I ignore their reasons. To my ears, Bösendorfer keeps a clear elocution in very complicated music, while Steinway and co mix up the notes.


Yes, you really notice this difference when you're tuning a Bösendorfer.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

An upright grand sounds very much as the name implies.


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## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

I read somewhere, quite a long time ago, that when Michael Ponti recorded Scriabin's piano music for Vox/Turnabout, he played on an upright for the recording. Just in case someone's interested. Some of the quieter preludes are rather hard to hear.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Enthalpy said:


> Despite jazz pianists use to amplify their instrument, which would enable upright pianos, they prefer grand pianos. Not only for the faster keys.
> 
> Jazz pianists almost unanimously prefer Bösendorfer, while classical pianists split among Steinway, Kawai, also Fazioli and rarely Bösendorfer. I ignore their reasons. To my ears, Bösendorfer keeps a clear elocution in very complicated music, while Steinway and co mix up the notes.


A Bösendorfer is also going to showcase shortcomings in technique more so than a Steinway will. It's not a very forgiving piano. I'm not surprised most classical pianists playing difficult concert repertoire opt for the Steinway.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

If you have a grand piano and a top-of-the-line upright piano as I did for several years, you will not find anything special about the upright. In fact, the upright will suffer by the comparison. After a number of years I sold the upright because I wasn’t using it. Not only is the sound of the grand far superior to an upright, the response of the keys is superior. Also, the left soft or una corda pedal works so differently on an upright that it is of limited or IMO no use (and can’t really be called ‘una corda’) after one experiences the benefit of its use on a grand.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Respectfully disagree. I have a lovely 1925 Bechstein upright whose action, quality of tone and_ una corda_ pedal are at least as fine as their equivalents on the Kemble grand on which I have lessons. The grand does have a heft to its sound which isn't easy to achieve on the upright, but it's up to me as the pianist to find a way around that.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Respectfully disagree. I have a lovely 1925 Bechstein upright whose action, quality of tone and_ una corda_ pedal are at least as fine as their equivalents on the Kemble grand on which I have lessons. The grand does have a heft to its sound which isn't easy to achieve on the upright, but it's up to me as the pianist to find a way around that.


I love my upright Baldwin.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Respectfully disagree. I have a lovely 1925 Bechstein upright whose action, quality of tone and_ una corda_ pedal are at least as fine as their equivalents on the Kemble grand on which I have lessons. The grand does have a heft to its sound which isn't easy to achieve on the upright, but it's up to me as the pianist to find a way around that.


For one thing, I don’t know how the ‘una corda’ pedal on the upright can possibly be equivalent to the grand since it doesn’t do a true ‘una corda’.

Edit: Good luck trying to find a way around not only the lack of the relatively powerful sound of a grand, but the inferior tone of uprights compared to a good grand. Personally, I don’t think it’s possible.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

And now for something completely different...in regards to an upright piano

New Possibilities For Upright Pianos: Real-time Adjustable Microtones, Harmonics, Multiphonics, and More. Lecture-Recital by Douglas Jurs (January 2021) - College Music Symposium


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

DaveM said:


> For one thing, I don’t know how the ‘una corda’ pedal on the upright can possibly be equivalent to the grand since it doesn’t do a true ‘una corda’.
> 
> Edit: Good luck trying to find a way around not only the lack of the relatively powerful sound of a grand, but the inferior tone of uprights compared to a good grand. Personally, I don’t think it’s possible.


I'm more interested in the effect produced than I am in the machinery producing it. One of my "party pieces" is Chopin's Etude in A flat op.25 no.1, two thirds of which requires the _una corda_ pedal, and having played it numerous times on both instruments I have to tell you the effect of the Bechstein's pedal on the music is every bit as noticeable and evocative.

As for tone quality, a good deal depends on two things, (a) make of piano and (b) one's definition of "inferior". The Kemble grand at my music school has a bigger tone for sure, but not a sweeter or more musically attractive one.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I love my upright Baldwin.


Understandable, but you must still acknowledge the _objective_ superiority of the grand. It's probably what DaveM the firespewing dragon wants you to do.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

A little off-topic, but I think it's unfortunate that "piano sound" became so homogenized and standardized and centered on a handful of grand piano models. There isn't the variety and individuality that you have with violin-family instruments. No two of those are going to sound exactly alike and using different string sets/combos, bridges and bows differentiates even further. Harpsichords are also more individual. Now it's usually just the same old Steinway.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

DaveM said:


> For one thing, I don’t know how the ‘una corda’ pedal on the upright can possibly be equivalent to the grand since it doesn’t do a true ‘una corda’.
> 
> Edit: Good luck trying to find a way around not only the lack of the relatively powerful sound of a grand, but the inferior tone of uprights compared to a good grand. Personally, I don’t think it’s possible.


That's also true of even a grand most of us can afford. The vast majority of pianos won't hold up to a Steinway or Bösendorfer.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Do top pianists actually have the freedom to choose which piano they want depending on the piece, or is it a case where they have sponsorship deals with Steinway and the like?


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

fbjim said:


> Do top pianists actually have the freedom to choose which piano they want depending on the piece, or is it a case where they have sponsorship deals with Steinway and the like?


Even with a Steinway, pianists have the option of visiting the warehouse showroom. To test play all pianos on site. The one with the action and sound which best suits them will then be delivered to the venue where they're performing.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

progmatist said:


> That's also true of even a grand most of us can afford. The vast majority of pianos won't hold up to a Steinway or Bösendorfer.


True, but the quality of the Yahama and even Kawai pianos are far superior to uprights and if one wants to play a Steinway or Bosendorfer when available, one will be better able to get the benefit of them if they have the education of a grand. And if one wants to record their own playing then there is just no comparison. I spent a few years recording my own playing on a grand and there is no comparable way of recording an upright as there is to sticking a high quality microphone over the harp of a grand.

Now I understand that not everyone can own a grand piano and I also understand that there are good uprights that sound and feel pretty good, but that doesn’t change the superiority of the grand.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Personally I think all pianos would benefit from getting away from equal temperament, but that's another thread.


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

To make the comparison more complicated: (very) few upright pianos got the more refined mechanics of grand pianos. And giraffe pianos were build, upright but with long strings.


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

59540 said:


> Personally I think all pianos would benefit from getting away from equal temperament, but that's another thread.


I disagree as a composer. I like being able to compose a piano piece, or even a full scale orchestral work for that matter, knowing that it will always sound the same no matter the piano, performer, or even city wherein the piece is performed. I like the universality of acoustic, classical instruments. I am of a technical or logical disposition, and do not like "variables" in my sonic experimentation. This was a big challenge with rock music, I find. You can never write for electric guitar or synth confidently because the very sound depends on what "gear" your band mates have. Does my guitarist have a fender strat, gibson les Paul, what amplifier is he using, is it a boss metal zone for distortion? Does my keyboardist have the same moog I use? What Hammond presets can he replicate? No thanks.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Denerah Bathory said:


> I disagree as a composer. I like being able to compose a piano piece, or even a full scale orchestral work for that matter, knowing that it will always sound the same no matter the piano, performer, or even city wherein the piece is performed.


What do you think the role of the instrumentalist is?


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

Mandryka said:


> What do you think the role of the instrumentalist is?


To play what is written on the page and nothing else! There is an exact science of notation, pedal markings, dynamics and even metronome markings so that there is absolutely no guessing how it ought to be done, and that is what I love about music theory. The performer is there basically because Midi doesn't quite get the sound right, basically the performer is just the operator of the instrumental engine, obeying the gospel of a higher willpower (the composer, at times channeled by the conductor). The performance of a musical piece is a sacred ritual, and the composer is the holy ghost indwelling therein.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Denerah Bathory said:


> To play what is written on the page and nothing else! There is an exact science of notation, pedal markings, dynamics and even metronome markings so that there is absolutely no guessing how it ought to be done, and that is what I love about music theory.


I would be surprised if any successful composer agrees with that. I would be surprised if any artist would want to perform a work under those constraints.



> The performer is there basically because Midi doesn't quite get the sound right, basically the performer is just the operator of the instrumental engine, obeying the gospel of a higher willpower (the composer, at times channeled by the conductor). The performance of a musical piece is a sacred ritual, and the composer is the holy ghost indwelling therein.


Are we being pranked?


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

DaveM said:


> I would be surprised if any successful composer agrees with that. I would be surprised if any artist would want to perform a work under those constraints.
> 
> 
> 
> Are we being pranked?


Well if the performer doesn't like how a piece is written, they can play another! The whole point of musical performance is to honor with exactitude the composer's vision, otherwise you're basically doing a "variations on a theme by" and not an authentic rendition. Now, if only opera directors took this principle to heart.


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

Are we being pranked?
[/QUOTE]
I'm an old soul who likes to write in colorful metaphor like 19th century romantic era gentlemen, I believe life can be beautiful and we ought to use our words and language to speak in wonderful tones about these things. There is something to be said about reading the passion in Nietzsche or Wagner essays compared to the sober, dry, boring scholars and pundits of today, who claim to be "experts" but have no soul or passion in what they write about.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Denerah Bathory said:


> Well if the performer doesn't like how a piece is written, they can play another! The whole point of musical performance is to honor with exactitude the composer's vision, otherwise you're basically doing a "variations on a theme by" and not an authentic rendition. Now, if only opera directors took this principle to heart.


That relegates the performing artist to a robotic status. Of course, there can be an issue with the artist taking major liberties, but the premise of a rigid ‘exactitude of the composer’s vision’ is not only an affectation, but impossible to expect. Good luck with a composing career with those requirements.


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

DaveM said:


> That relegates the performing artist to a robotic status. Of course, there can be an issue with the artist taking major liberties, but the premise of a rigid ‘exactitude of the composer’s vision’ is not only an affectation, but impossible to expect. Good luck with a composing career with those requirements.


I don't plan on a career in the traditional sense, especially since I learned that a composer is expected by some record labels to throw in 12,000 $ for 10 minutes of recorded music. I don't believe I should have to pay to have my work performed or recorded, since the publishing system is supposed to be this: the publisher finances the entire work, as employer, who in turns gives the composer 10% net royalties so that 90% cover overhead and generate some profit for the publisher. In other words, the common sense capitalist model classical music labels don't do nowadays. So I'm going to have all my works rendered in virtual orchestra software, which will always sound good and Exact and I'll never have to worry about intonation or lack of equal temperament. This is great, it will always be the way I intend, and the clockwork nature of this method ensures stability and peace of mind, as my very wellbeing depends on perfect routine, exactitude, permanence, and repetition.
My friends say things about my mental tendencies, and it doesn't matter. Nor do the implications of my strike against corrupt publishing policies, so long as the routine is preserved. Who is John Galt?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Denerah Bathory said:


> Well if the performer doesn't like how a piece is written, they can play another! The whole point of musical performance is to honor with exactitude the composer's vision, otherwise you're basically doing a "variations on a theme by" and not an authentic rendition. Now, if only opera directors took this principle to heart.


Your scores must be very well specified. How do you show a performer how you’d like simultaneous pitches to be balanced?


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