# Symphonic Prelude in E major



## dzc4627

I am happy to present a new piece of mine which I've just recently submitted to a contest. It was conceived of as a sonata for cello and piano, but as many of ideas tend to be, the music was too large for that medium. I decided to orchestrate the beginning of this cello sonata that I was writing and found the character translated wonderfully to the orchestra, which I can now understand the ideas were truly conceived for.

The audio: https://ufile.io/sjlh7
The score:
View attachment Orchestral Prelude in E Major - Full Score.pdf


It's largely an homage to Anton Bruckner (and by proxy the language of Richard Wagner), and his divinely empowered style that I find infinitely inspiring. The debt to Bach though, as well, is clear I would hope, as in this piece I am very economical with motives and most of the music is dwelling on the themes presented in the first few bars. As Bruckner and Bach would both very often do, I invert, diminutive, augment, and further transform my motives and themes which propels forward the growth of the piece.

It is a sort of condensed first movement (in a monothematic sonata form, with the recapitulation coinciding with the Coda) of what could be a symphony. I say condensed as there was a time limit for the contest and I had to be brief. Ideally this work would span fifteen minutes at least, with fully fledged secondary and perhaps tertiary theme groups, and a clear recapitulation.

The title of the piece is almost arbitrary, and given the "first movement" character of the work I chose to avoid naming the piece anything that might evoke anything at all.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

What program do you use?


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

I'm listening right now, and I think it does fine as a piece on its own. I don't think it has enough material in terms of melody/theming to be extended into a longer piece, it feels perfect as is. 

Good Work!


----------



## Phil loves classical

I can definitely hear Bruckner. I would think there should be more of an intro before the theme. A 2nd theme would be nice and make the transitions more interesting.


----------



## dzc4627

Phil loves classical said:


> I can definitely hear Bruckner. I would think there should be more of an intro before the theme. A 2nd theme would be nice and make the transitions more interesting.


I personally enjoy the immediacy of the main theme. Even an extra bar of tremolo would feel excessive and ruin the metric regularity I have going throughout nearly all of the piece.

Technically there is a secondary section as in a sonata form. It is in B major, the dominant of E as is convention. However, it's just a restatement of the main theme in the dominant key which is a favored method of Haydn in his symphonies and string quartets. To quote myself, "Ideally this work would span fifteen minutes at least, with fully fledged secondary and perhaps tertiary theme groups, and a clear recapitulation." The original cello sonata did indeed have an expansive and contrasting secondary theme group but for this contest I had to condense my ambitions, and thus decided it would be best to focus intensely on only one group of themes.


----------



## MarkMcD

Hi dzc,

I think this stands a good chance at being placed in the competition. It has some wonderful textures that look very simple on the page but that have a very rich and full sound, giving the piece a very cinematic feel.

Do you plan on finishing the piece as you originally wanted? I can easily imagine the cello taking up those themes and elevating them to new heights. I think in fact that that is what is needed possibly. I know it's a prelude and wonderful as it is, it does feel very much like there should be more, it is the prelude that promises the next phase, and that's what I'd also love to hear.


I always love to hear new classically structured tonal music, and as always you do a great job of it.

Best regards
Mark


----------



## dzc4627

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> What program do you use?


Sibelius with Noteperformer play back. I highly recommend Noteperformer!


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

dzc4627 said:


> Sibelius with Noteperformer play back. I highly recommend Noteperformer!


Thanks! I have a hard time finding playback software that remotely sounds realistic.
The brass timbre on your Noteperformer sounds perfect for romantic works!


----------



## dzc4627

MarkMcD said:


> Hi dzc,
> 
> I think this stands a good chance at being placed in the competition. It has some wonderful textures that look very simple on the page but that have a very rich and full sound, giving the piece a very cinematic feel.
> 
> Do you plan on finishing the piece as you originally wanted? I can easily imagine the cello taking up those themes and elevating them to new heights. I think in fact that that is what is needed possibly. I know it's a prelude and wonderful as it is, it does feel very much like there should be more, it is the prelude that promises the next phase, and that's what I'd also love to hear.
> 
> I always love to hear new classically structured tonal music, and as always you do a great job of it.
> 
> Best regards
> Mark


Thank you, Mark! I appreciate it.

Whether or not I finish it (put it into the scope of a full sonata form movement) is still undecided. The piece as it is highlights the most structurally important moments of what would be a sonata form. My main hangup is how derivative of Bruckner it is. Any seasoned Brucknerian will hear what I mean... however, it seems that we disciples of the Master are far and few, and perhaps my carrying on of his methods is indeed a valiant effort that I ought to continue.


----------



## MarkMcD

Bruckner, at least for a time, was heavily influenced by Wagner, and Liszt for example, but he wasn't either, and the music, although reminiscent, was his own. Taking elements, methods and inspiration from others has always and will always go on. To copy or to imitate is neither good nor useful, but to try to continue and use as inspiration, ideas from the greats, is a valiant and worthwhile endeavour in my opinion. Not always done successfully it has to be said, but I think as long as there is a conscious effort to not imitate, but to use those tools in your own manner, then those that complain, have not understood the purpose.

You are right, I'm not a great disciple of Bruckner, and I don't hear what you hear in that respect, but the music is good, and it is not Bruckner.

Just keep doing what you're doing if it is making you happy, that is the only reason to keep doing what we do. If someone else likes it then that's a bonus, and if they don't, hey, that's fine too.

I'm quite sure you didn't need this pep talk, but I just felt like giving it, hope you don't mind lol.

Kind regards
Mark


----------



## dzc4627

MarkMcD said:


> Bruckner, at least for a time, was heavily influenced by Wagner, and Liszt for example, but he wasn't either, and the music, although reminiscent, was his own. Taking elements, methods and inspiration from others has always and will always go on. To copy or to imitate is neither good nor useful, but to try to continue and use as inspiration, ideas from the greats, is a valiant and worthwhile endeavour in my opinion. Not always done successfully it has to be said, but I think as long as there is a conscious effort to not imitate, but to use those tools in your own manner, then those that complain, have not understood the purpose.
> 
> You are right, I'm not a great disciple of Bruckner, and I don't hear what you hear in that respect, but the music is good, and it is not Bruckner.
> 
> Just keep doing what you're doing if it is making you happy, that is the only reason to keep doing what we do. If someone else likes it then that's a bonus, and if they don't, hey, that's fine too.
> 
> I'm quite sure you didn't need this pep talk, but I just felt like giving it, hope you don't mind lol.
> 
> Kind regards
> Mark


Quite a pep talk it was, Mark! While most of it is already part of my core philosophy, it is great to hear it affirmed from a very talented fellow.

Thanks!


----------



## dzc4627

The fileshare is no longer working, here is a youtube link:


----------



## Captainnumber36

dzc4627 said:


> The fileshare is no longer working, here is a youtube link:


I enjoyed it very much, thanks for sharing!


----------



## Jacob Brooks

Very derivative, and hence not worth composing or posting! Try mashing random notes more.


----------



## MarkMcD

Jacob Brooks said:


> Very derivative, and hence not worth composing or posting! Try mashing random notes more.


And who are you, the music police?


----------



## Jacob Brooks

I am the sole executor of my own judgement, and in that way yes!


----------



## Guest

Pastiches are great as a learning tool, and this is a great study in Bruckner's style. Do you hope to compose music for musicians as well? As far as Bruckner goes, you could convince me that this piece is something he wrote but tossed aside as not suitable for one of his big symphonies, so kudos to your understanding of his style. It's certainly less sophisticated and more 'regular' in phrasing and harmony than his published works, so there's always more you can do to show a greater understanding of Bruckner's style, I guess.

I agree with Jacob Brooks that this music is very derivative, but my guess is that you aren't trying to compose original music but just pastiches to understand 19th century style without the intention of originality. It's certainly worth getting feedback on pastiches, and they are always a great learning tool, but I wouldn't say it is a true composition by dzc4627 as much as it isn't a true composition by Bruckner. A good pastiche and a great exercise in historical styles is more in line with what it actually is. 

Keep composing, keep expanding your knowledge. I look forward to more music from you; perhaps something more 'you' next time?

:tiphat:


----------



## dzc4627

shirime said:


> Pastiches are great as a learning tool, and this is a great study in Bruckner's style. Do you hope to compose music for musicians as well? As far as Bruckner goes, you could convince me that this piece is something he wrote but tossed aside as not suitable for one of his big symphonies, so kudos to your understanding of his style. It's certainly less sophisticated and more 'regular' in phrasing and harmony than his published works, so there's always more you can do to show a greater understanding of Bruckner's style, I guess.
> 
> I agree with Jacob Brooks that this music is very derivative, but my guess is that you aren't trying to compose original music but just pastiches to understand 19th century style without the intention of originality. It's certainly worth getting feedback on pastiches, and they are always a great learning tool, but I wouldn't say it is a true composition by dzc4627 as much as it isn't a true composition by Bruckner. A good pastiche and a great exercise in historical styles is more in line with what it actually is.
> 
> Keep composing, keep expanding your knowledge. I look forward to more music from you; perhaps something more 'you' next time?
> 
> :tiphat:


This is music for musicians. What on earth are you suggesting asking otherwise? Shall I add more gritty dissonances that make the stomachs of audiences churn?

As somewhat of an expert on the Brucknerian idiom, I find it hilarious that you could mistake this for Bruckner and it demonstrates a lack of knowledge on your part. Every Bruckner symphony past 5 employs only regular phrasing via his metric regulation so I'd suggest you reconsider your comments on that!

Much of the music is of my own inspiration, in fact I'd say most. Would you call Beethoven's early symphonies pastiche? Mozart's Piano Concerti in the wake of JC Bach? Tomás Luis de Victoria's motets in the wake of Palestrina? Bruckner's idiom is so vast and unique that I'd say elements could be revived in a way that makes the composer not a creator of pastiche, but a creator of beauty achieved via elements unrecognized by most of the musical canon that followed. If that's pastiche, so be it!

Please, spare me the patronizing. I don't want to compose "me." I want to create music! Bach had no interested in painting himself... neither did the rest of the Masters. It's not about leaving a selfish mark on history. It's about crafting music with integrity.


----------



## Guest

I was unaware of your status as a Bruckner expert, actually. I'd love to read some things you have to say about Bruckner! Do you have any publications? I am gradually becoming a fan of his works and I'd love to learn from an expert. 

I didn't mention anything about 'gritty dissonances' but if you write the music you want to write then I would suspect that after a while there will be many more individual traits that will make you stand out as a brilliant composer. Simply by composing you will reveal yourself and your interests. I hope you don't ever consider the act of composing as a 'selfish' thing! 

You said it was a homage to Bruckner and his style, and I commented that this is a good pastiche and I honestly think it shows a great affection to his music, even if it isn't stylistically the most accurate presentation of it. You will only reveal yourself if you compose music for music's sake, which is what it sounds like you want to do anyway. Yes this is a pastiche because it is a composition in a historical idiom. You speak as if that is a bad thing, but I most certainly do not agree that it is.

Because you write music for musicians, I am curious to know what musicians have you written for and do you have any recordings by them? What have they told you about your music? I wish you many fantastic performances in the future!


----------



## dzc4627

shirime said:


> I was unaware of your status as a Bruckner expert, actually. I'd love to read some things you have to say about Bruckner! Do you have any publications? I am gradually becoming a fan of his works and I'd love to learn from an expert.
> 
> I didn't mention anything about 'gritty dissonances' but if you write the music you want to write then I would suspect that after a while there will be many more individual traits that will make you stand out as a brilliant composer. Simply by composing you will reveal yourself and your interests. I hope you don't ever consider the act of composing as a 'selfish' thing!
> 
> You said it was a homage to Bruckner and his style, and I commented that this is a good pastiche and I honestly think it shows a great affection to his music, even if it isn't stylistically the most accurate presentation of it. You will only reveal yourself if you compose music for music's sake, which is what it sounds like you want to do anyway. Yes this is a pastiche because it is a composition in a historical idiom. You speak as if that is a bad thing, but I most certainly do not agree that it is.
> 
> Because you write music for musicians, I am curious to know what musicians have you written for and do you have any recordings by them? What have they told you about your music? I wish you many fantastic performances in the future!


A novice expert, I should clarify. My ideas have the approval of such Brucknerian scholars as William Carragan (a famous completion-er of the unfinished 9th) and Benjamin Korstvedt, who I've consulted privately and discussed Brucknerian matters with at length. My ideas on the Bruckner 9 adagio and Brucknerian adagios at large will also be featured in Alonso del Arte's updated publication on Bruckner's unfinished 9th and its finale, the author of which I have corresponded to frequently and shared my works with. What I lack in scholarly publications I can make up for in a vast knowledge of nearly every of his symphonies and vocal works. Ask away.

For live recordings I will refer you as such:
Largo for Orchestra, 2016
http://www.youngcomposerschallenge....um_Daniel_Zarb-Cousin_Largo_for_Orchestra.mp3

Fantasy for Orchestra, 2017
http://www.youngcomposerschallenge...._Daniel_Zarb-Cousin_Fantasy_for_Orchestra.mp3

Piano Trio for Piano, Clarinet, and Violin
Piano Trio for Piano, Violin, and Clarinet

Adagio Pathetique for Flute and Piano





Some excerpts from a juvenile Sonata for Violin and Piano: 





Many of these works I have outgrown, but they demonstrate my past of writing music for specific musicians as you emphasize. Namely, Jenny Lehtonen: Flautist of the Cincinatti College Conservatory, Alan Chen: Violinist of the University of Austin Texas, Kaiyuan Wu: concerto competition winning violinist of the San Francisco Conservatory of Music (the school I attend), Sahand S. Nobakht: clarinetist attending SFCM as well. And of course the Orlando Philharmonic, with their performances of the two orchestral works listed.

While it has elements of pastiche, I'd maintain that the work is far removed from Bruckner to where I can safely consider it my own work, in the same way Mozart could claim his piano concerti as his own creative output, not pastiche of JC Bach. Same with the violin sonatas on behalf of Schubert from Mozart, &c.


----------



## Guest

Thanks for this! I'm enjoying listening to your works. 

I'll send you a PM about Bruckner at some stage.


----------



## dzc4627

shirime said:


> Thanks for this! I'm enjoying listening to your works.
> 
> I'll send you a PM about Bruckner at some stage.


Please do. Expect nothing less than a few paragraphs!


----------



## tvparty

Very impressive work, dzc... 'Fantasy for Orchestra' especially. That is quite brilliant.


----------



## Alkan

dzc4627 said:


> I personally enjoy the immediacy of the main theme. Even an extra bar of tremolo would feel excessive and ruin the metric regularity I have going throughout nearly all of the piece.


I enjoyed this piece. Bruckner, for sure, and sounding like Wagner in a couple of places. Well done overall, and hopefully you will continue to build on your Bruckner foundation. However, I agree with Phil that the opening is too abrupt. You should reconsider that "extra bar of tremolo".


----------



## Jacob Brooks

dzc4627 said:


> Please, spare me the patronizing. I don't want to compose "me." I want to create music! Bach had no interested in painting himself... neither did the rest of the Masters. It's not about leaving a selfish mark on history. It's about crafting music with integrity.


It is about leaving a "selfish mark" in the sense that you are going to extreme efforts to manifest in music your vision of life and experience (what music is about). It isn't about leaving a "selfish mark" in the sense of the mark being autobiographical, somehow "representing oneself." I'm pretty sure you agree with this but I just wanted to clarify that last paragraph. Feel free to disagree... after all music is just a matter of taste..... ;-)


----------

