# Teaching styles



## Ingélou

Teaching styles in music vary greatly and in recent years have even become polarised. Some teachers like theory, scales, rules & set practice; others prefer a freer method. Which teaching style do you think is most effective in learning a stringed instrument? 

Having been brought up 'in the old school', I prefer the hierarchical approach; yet I have benefited from a teacher who is very free and experimental and also inspirational. I have made huge advances in the last two years & have worked very hard. However, because of my age, I need more detailed instruction - things no longer 'come naturally' to me. So I decided to take exams, and I have now taken on another additional teacher to teach me methodically. 

Apart from having to pay two weekly fees, this is an ideal solution for me. My exam teacher of necessity has a narrow focus, but that's okay, as I get to play all sorts of adventurous repertoire with the other. The Inspired One does not make me do exercises, or tell me about keys and scales and arpeggios - but the exam tutor does, and that means when I am playing for my freer teacher, I can control the sound I am making much better than before. And this has given me confidence. 

I am making it a poll just to stimulate discussion & am really interested in your replies - if you have any! Also any experiences you can share that would help me to learn how people learn in music. 

Thanks in advance for any replies.


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## Taggart

It's an interesting problem. Suzuki to some extent goes beyond the dots and looks at playing by ear in groups to develop musicality. Yet the books include intonation exercises to develop technique.

There's a whole range of skills that you need in playing music - reading music, sense of tempo, sense of pitch, sense of tonality, musical theory as well as all the practical techniques of bowing and fingering. 

The old fashioned scales, arpeggios and studies approach covered everything although it could be somewhat dry. A freer approach - playing by ear and so forth - doesn't develop the theory or the reading or the sense of tempo but it can cover much of the other work if the tunes selected can be used as studies.

I grew up, as a pianist, in the old school and much prefer it.


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## PetrB

As the OP says, quite correctly, concern with "which method" and polarization about which method has skyrocketed within the last few decades.

It is only within the last decade or so that when people learned I taught piano, I was immediately next asked "Which method do you use?" (Previously, I can not recall _ever_ being asked that question, even from fellow musicians.)

My answer -- which I still believe most valid -- is, "The old-fashioned _classical_ method. That is where you get everything, technique, repertoire, theory, in some thought-about order of pedagogy / presentation, with time taken more or less on what needs more or less work at any given moment." (This is, of course, repeating what worked for me and so many others. Lessons may have used collections of pieces, I did work initially from Bartok's Microkosmos, for example, but after that, I never had a 'graded teaching / repertoire book,' ever. This did not seem to hinder me in any way from gaining admission in middle school to a high-standard music camp, ditto later a music prep school, or subsequently, conservatory.)

Any method is a near certain fail if the teacher has not / can not assess both the student's psychology (individuated learning) and their potential abilities. _Any method, methodically applied to teaching how to play an instrument, misses a lot_, and I tend to think of it as treating individuals like objects on a belt in a production factory.

Too, in lessons where "method" is used by a good teacher, those lessons will have many supplemental bits of assignments and outright 'detours from the method,' probably in amount as much of that supplemental attention as material 'from the book.'

Methodical, in application, is good: rigorous discipline is good.

Method in teaching -- without any extra-the-method supplements -- especially in one-on-one contexts, just sucks.


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## Ingélou

:tiphat: This is a fabulous post, PetrB - maybe that's because you say everything that I believe too. 

I think teaching the methods - the scales & techniques in music, the grammar and figures of speech in language - is so helpful, because as well as not missing things out, the student is given a logical way of perceiving the subject which s/he can slot into her brain. But as you say, it would be dead and off-putting if a method is drily applied, without any assessment of the student's needs and without any room for creativity. That is an ideal, but we all have experience of gifted teachers who could achieve this balance.

I suppose I posted this thread as a bit of a protest - because I have seen the baby thrown out with the bathwater - young teachers averse to teaching methodically, believing that their students have to learn or want to do everything on their own, the teacher being a 'learning facilitator'. A really good teacher could be fairly free while keeping tabs on what the student is learning and making sure they don't miss anything. That also is possible, but it is much harder to achieve, and it is much easier for the teacher to slide into being a popular 'personality' who is really not a teacher but either a performer, or a 'best friend' to his or her pupils. 

However, it would be interesting to see someone else's 'take' on teaching methods.


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## PetrB

Following the student's whim is _fashionable_: it is also, unbeknown to those who believe in it, a dreadfully laid-back if not downright lazy approach: it also denies the role of teacher / student and the relationship they have as the student develops.

You cannot be personally free, or personally expressive, without more than a basic technique and knowledge base of how music works, and how to work the instrument, since all freedom and expressivity is bound up with the knowledge and technique... I know that is a classic dichotomy, but there 'tis. To give the student much else but very limited choices is to abandon proper pedagogy, ergo that is no longer efficient teaching.

The irony in the more 'let the pupil do what they want' approaches is the pupil progresses less rapidly than under tutelage where the teacher is more entirely in command.

P.s. The phenomenon of parents wanting concrete and tangible results, often motivated by boasting rights so they can say, "My child has reached level "X" exams... with the unstated, "your child is only at," has become a market force to which the teaching profession has capitulated. I think that capitulation is near wholly responsible for the creation of so many methods (and grade level exams) -- to impress and convince the client with a false glamor (a pallid one at that) of guaranteed 'efficiency' -- where the time the student spends and the money the parents spend is all as accountable and reliable as a warranty on the working of a purchased product.


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## aleazk

Very strict old-fashioned method the first years. Some liberty after.


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## Ingélou

Then, after the liberty, when you're in your 'third age', an old-fashioned method again, though with less strictness!


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## aleazk

Ingélou said:


> Then, after the liberty, when you're in your 'third age', an old-fashioned method again, though with less strictness!


And with a cup of tea!.


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## Jaws

If you want to have a fun afternoon playing string quartets with friends you have to learn to read music at sight. So no playing by ear on its own. No one wants to play with someone who has to have 3 months notice of what you might be playing so that they can learn their part by ear. As scales and arpeggios played by reading the music are an important part of learning what music in certain keys looks like and as fast recognition of musical patterns are part of being a good sight reader only doing "fun" things limits the amount of fun you can have later.


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## Incitatus

I think that it needs to be a well balanced mixture. In the beginning I was taught with scales, more stricter and straightforward criteria and more common music. When I moved up to a higher level I was taught using many different compositions and sight reading to figure out intonation and such. I'd play Shepard's Hey, Klaxon, and top it off with Variations on a Korean Folk Song to get the point of intonation and shifting across. There needs to be a blend and a give and take so that a student isn't frightened off but is challenged enough and free enough to explore all the different directions music can take.


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## Ingélou

I have just passed my first music exam, Violin ABRSM Grade 3, with distinction. It is a lowly grade, but I am 'over the moon'. Thinking about it, I have an ideal set-up. My exam teacher is wonderfully thorough & kind, and my 'repertoire' teacher is imaginative, inspiring, challenging. I am blessed.


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## moody

Ingélou said:


> I have just passed my first music exam, Violin ABRSM Grade 3, with distinction. It is a lowly grade, but I am 'over the moon'. Thinking about it, I have an ideal set-up. My exam teacher is wonderfully thorough & kind, and my 'repertoire' teacher is imaginative, inspiring, challenging. I am blessed.


Many congratulations !!!


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## PetrB

Ingélou said:


> I have just passed my first music exam, Violin ABRSM Grade 3, with distinction. It is a lowly grade, but I am 'over the moon'. Thinking about it, I have an ideal set-up. My exam teacher is wonderfully thorough & kind, and my 'repertoire' teacher is imaginative, inspiring, challenging. I am blessed.


Seconding Moody's "Many Congratulations !!!"


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## ShropshireMoose

PetrB said:


> Seconding Moody's "Many Congratulations !!!"


Thirding (if such a word is possible) the above two!

My piano teacher was fairly strict and old fashioned in his ways, thus there were always scales, and a study every week as well as whatever pieces you were working on, and it worked, BUT, he never put me through exams. He did say at one point, "if you really want to do them, then you can, but I'd rather not." His feeling was that he didn't want to be constrained by whatever was on the Associated Board syllabus for that year. He also used to say, "I feel that too many teachers only put their pupils into exams for their own greater glory, so that they can say 'well I've had seven grade 5's with distinction' etc. and that has nothing to do with music." He did encourage me to play all sorts of pieces outside what he taught me. My dad was a very good pianist in the lighter style, his favourite music for piano being that of Billy Mayerl, and he could also do a good imitation of Fats Waller, well, my teacher asked me one day if I played anything else, and I played "The Doll Dance" by Nacio Herb Brown, it wasn't really my teacher's type of music, but he complimented me on it and felt it was good to be playing in other styles. He himself had no qualifications in music, he was an elderly gentleman who live two streets down from us, but he was inspirational and had studied with a concert pianist by the name of Leonard Rayner in the 30s. I visited him regularly for years after I'd finished lessons and sadly due to Parkinsons disease he could no longer play, but to talk music with him was an absolute joy, and I miss him still.


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## Ingélou

I think you're right about exams. With my exam teacher, I have been playing the three prepared pieces & only them for months. On the other hand, he has taught me about timing, dynamics, and different types of bowing and taken me through the aural tests in a structured way. I'm beginning to see how it all hangs together. So it's not about the piece of paper for me, it's about the ladder of learning.

With my other teacher, talented though he is, we have raced through pieces without settling on any structured technique & without any notes taken or reference to earlier progress. On the other hand, my musical experience & my fluency at bowing have gone through the roof with him. And he is such fun - it's the most exciting time of my life since my teens and twenties, and how can a simple pensioner resist? 

Your teacher sounds absolutely ideal - disciplined, but enthusiastic & ready to try different repertoire.


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## Jaws

Ingélou said:


> I think you're right about exams. With my exam teacher, I have been playing the three prepared pieces & only them for months. On the other hand, he has taught me about timing, dynamics, and different types of bowing and taken me through the aural tests in a structured way. I'm beginning to see how it all hangs together. So it's not about the piece of paper for me, it's about the ladder of learning.
> 
> With my other teacher, talented though he is, we have raced through pieces without settling on any structured technique & without any notes taken or reference to earlier progress. On the other hand, my musical experience & my fluency at bowing have gone through the roof with him. And he is such fun - it's the most exciting time of my life since my teens and twenties, and how can a simple pensioner resist?
> 
> Your teacher sounds absolutely ideal - disciplined, but enthusiastic & ready to try different repertoire.


I am afraid I am going to be "a voice of doom" or something. I basically think that grade exams are totally unsuitable for adults. They were designed to be taken by children to show parents that the child has been learning their lessons. They don't give any idea of standard because they are only standards in relation to each other as in grade 3 is better than grade 2 but not as good as grade 4. Teachers of adults in my opinion should never ever suggest that these tests should be taken by adults and it is completely possible to teach pieces with all the things that you mention, like bowing and aural and all the other things without ever using music from an exam syllabus. My usual advice to adult starters is to not take exams and to not go to teachers who think that it is alright to patronise adults by helping them to take these exams.

It is really important to get grade exams into perspective in the world of adult music making. Many adults do not realise that grade 8 is an elementary exam compared to what it is possible to play on any instrument. From the perspective of a professional player grade 8 is an exam that beginners take. In the world of adult education grade 8 is like an exam that you would take at the end of high school at age 18. So when you mention to another adult that you have taken grade 8 you are effectively saying that you have graduated high school or in the UK that you have passed an A level. Most adults would think that you were a bit odd if you went round telling people that you had graduated high school or that you had passed an A level as most people can do this. This is the same for grade 8. Most people who study any instrument can pass grade 8 so having done this does not make you into a special musician, just an adult beginner who is showing everyone that they don't know anything about standards in music. In my case I won't play with adults who have done grades because I know that in most cases they have had teachers who can only teach using the grade syllabus which is very limited, and have missed out so much really exiting music.

Grade 3 is roughly the same standard as a spelling test that an 8 year old might do at school. To tell other adults that you have passed grade 3 you are roughly saying that you have passed a test suitable for the average 8 or 9 year old in school. It is quite acceptable for an 8 or 9 year old to say this because that is the level that they are at in their education but it is not acceptable in adult education. What this means is that if a teacher has not explained this to their adult pupil, they are in effect patronising them because they are treating them as if they were an 8 or 9 year old by the use of their educational resources, like the pieces on a grade syllabus, many of which are easy arrangements. There is no need to do this. I usually suggest that adults who have teachers who teach grades change to teachers to someone who can truly teach adults without using resources designed for children.

Taking grades wastes time, money and effort that could be well used in other much more constructive ways. In terms of an orchestral instrument, playing in a group gives a much better use of time and a much faster progression than taking exams.


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## Ingélou

You are not the voice of doom; you are simply presenting a very cynical & partial view of exams - in my opinion, missing the bigger picture.

If you have read this thread carefully, you will see that it is about people's opinions on teaching styles, and exams are a part of this. I was asking if newer styles of teaching are omitting basic drills and skills that used, perhaps, to be too rigorously enforced.

I do see your point of view, teaching(?) adults who are younger than me and hope to get somewhere - like joining an orchestra. But for me, returning to the violin is a new-found hobby - no, make that _passionate pursuit _- in retirement. I wouldn't want to join an orchestra; I would like to play folk in sessions, but that, of course, I practise separately from my exam studies or baroque repertoire.

Don't worry, I am not going round telling people I got a distinction on grade 3 with any idea of vaunting my prowess. I posted it on here simply because I'd mentioned my nervousness at the prospect of my first music exam, and some of my TalkClassical friends were asking how I got on. It seemed more low-key to post here than on a more widely-read thread. And if you look at my post, I point out myself that grade 3 is a 'lowly' exam & talk about the way my two teachers, with their different styles, complement each other.

You don't need to tell me about exams and standards - I have just retired from a career in education, teaching at every stage from seven year olds to first year undergraduates.

As I said in my post to Shropshire Moose, I agree that exams can have a narrow focus, and to start off with I wanted to take them only as a way of motivating myself to practise. Then I discovered my fabulous fiddle guru, a performer in baroque music & a folk fiddler. He doesn't do exams, so I happily forgot all about them. But after eighteen months, during which I improved tremendously, I became uneasy about not getting systematic instruction. My generation was reared on systematic instruction and it suits my personal learning abilities best.

No way did I want to leave my wonderful fiddle teacher, so I decided to do exams as a way of getting experience of another teaching style. This way, I could go *in addition* to a respected local teacher who teaches to exams. I am delighted with him. Now that I have finished my exam, he has got me on a repertoire book practising new bowing skills before we go on to the next grade. It is really gruelling, but I am learning a lot.

I do think your views on exams are too negative. True, we don't go round boasting about them much in adult life, but A-level standard (grade 8) is worth something. It's university entrance level, not just graduating from high school. At my age, I should be so lucky if I ever get to grade 8, alas. 
Plus, as someone who regularly administered advanced spelling tests to nine-year-olds, I know that your comparison of such tests with grade 3 is simply *wrong*! Grade 5 is 0-level, and grades 3 & 4 are therefore more like working up to that in secondary school. Perhaps such a comparison suited your purpose, however.

In my own case, I have the problem of shyness and lack of confidence when playing in front of others. I think the exam experience - not the bit of paper, which has never interested me - will help me to face up to this and to conquer my nerves. Because I am on the exam circuit, I will be forced to learn vibrato, too, which has twice defeated me in the past. It's all good!

Maybe *your* adults only want exam certificates to prove something to their friends; but for my husband and me, and many others I'm sure, taking exams is just a very good way to keep one's nose to the grindstone - or rather, fingers on the keyboard and bow on the strings!


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## Jaws

Ingélou said:


> You are not the voice of doom; you are simply presenting a very cynical & partial view of exams - in my opinion, missing the bigger picture.
> 
> If you have read this thread carefully, you will see that it is about people's opinions on teaching styles, and exams are a part of this. I was asking if newer styles of teaching are omitting basic drills and skills that used, perhaps, to be too rigorously enforced.
> 
> I do see your point of view, teaching(?) adults who are younger than me and hope to get somewhere - like joining an orchestra. But for me, returning to the violin is a new-found hobby - no, make that _passionate pursuit _- in retirement. I wouldn't want to join an orchestra; I would like to play folk in sessions, but that, of course, I practise separately from my exam studies or baroque repertoire.
> 
> Don't worry, I am not going round telling people I got a distinction on grade 3 with any idea of vaunting my prowess. I posted it on here simply because I'd mentioned my nervousness at the prospect of my first music exam, and some of my TalkClassical friends were asking how I got on. It seemed more low-key to post here than on a more widely-read thread. And if you look at my post, I point out myself that grade 3 is a 'lowly' exam & talk about the way my two teachers, with their different styles, complement each other.
> 
> You don't need to tell me about exams and standards - I have just retired from a career in education, teaching at every stage from seven year olds to first year undergraduates.
> 
> As I said in my post to Shropshire Moose, I agree that exams can have a narrow focus, and to start off with I wanted to take them only as a way of motivating myself to practise. Then I discovered my fabulous fiddle guru, a performer in baroque music & a folk fiddler. He doesn't do exams, so I happily forgot all about them. But after eighteen months, during which I improved tremendously, I became uneasy about not getting systematic instruction. My generation was reared on systematic instruction and it suits my personal learning abilities best.
> 
> No way did I want to leave my wonderful fiddle teacher, so I decided to do exams as a way of getting experience of another teaching style. This way, I could go *in addition* to a respected local teacher who teaches to exams. I am delighted with him. Now that I have finished my exam, he has got me on a repertoire book practising new bowing skills before we go on to the next grade. It is really gruelling, but I am learning a lot.
> 
> I do think your views on exams are too negative. True, we don't go round boasting about them much in adult life, but A-level standard (grade 8) is worth something. It's university entrance level, not just graduating from high school. At my age, I should be so lucky if I ever get to grade 8, alas.
> Plus, as someone who regularly administered advanced spelling tests to nine-year-olds, I know that your comparison of such tests with grade 3 is simply *wrong*! Grade 5 is 0-level, and grades 3 & 4 are therefore more like working up to that in secondary school. Perhaps such a comparison suited your purpose, however.
> 
> In my own case, I have the problem of shyness and lack of confidence when playing in front of others. I think the exam experience - not the bit of paper, which has never interested me - will help me to face up to this and to conquer my nerves. Because I am on the exam circuit, I will be forced to learn vibrato, too, which has twice defeated me in the past. It's all good!
> 
> Maybe *your* adults only want exam certificates to prove something to their friends; but for my husband and me, and many others I'm sure, taking exams is just a very good way to keep one's nose to the grindstone - or rather, fingers on the keyboard and bow on the strings!


What I would like to suggest is that you ask your exam violin teacher to explain to you where in the standards possible to achieve on a musical instrument grade 8 comes. I find adults have a very difficult time understanding that grade 8 is not quite like A level. After A level you can go onto university to study based on your A level results. Grade 8 isn't like this. For university courses where there is a performance aspect of the course entry is by audition for playing standard in addition to the correct A level grades. If you haven't passed grade 8 but you pass the audition you can still get a place. If you haven't passed the relevant A levels you can't. For conservatoire entrance you need to have passed grade 8 by the time you are 14 or to have been learning for a short time, for example you passed grade 8 two years or less from when you started playing.

What you may not know is that not all the grade exams are the same level of playing standard on each instrument. It is much easier to pass grade 8 on the flute than it is on the horn for example. For the horn you need to know a lot more than you do for the flute, so it is quite common for people to pass grade 8 on the flute when they have only been learning for two years. If you do this on the horn it is quite unusual. The grades are not calibrated to each other. More children pass grade 8 on the violin at primary school than pass grade 8 on the trombone. This is because there are fractional violins but all children learn on adult size trombones. It is now not unusual for children to pass grade 8 on the violin while they are at primary school. Can you now see why grade 8 isn't like an A level? How many primary school age children do you know who have passed an A level. It is also quite common for young people to take DipABRSM while still at school, and these aren't the people who are going to study music at conservatoire as conservatoire entrance audition standards are much higher than this.

For young people hoping to study medicine having passed grade 8 with distinction on a musical instrument is no longer a way of getting a university to offer a place. The universities prefer students who play in a large variety of music groups in their spare time rather than grade exams, because grade exams are too easy now.

Over the years technology has made the violin much easier to play. Carbon fiber bows make good bows available at a much more affordable price, and the new types of strings make a making a decent sound across the whole range of the instrument much more achievable than it was when playing on gut strings that could go out of tune or not have the same kind of sound on different strings, so a more advanced technique was required in order to get the standard of playing that can be achieve much more easily today.

In line with the technology the grade exams have not increased in difficulty. Standards of playing have risen enormously but the grade exams have only increased in difficult by a small amount, and not enough to reflect the decrease in difficulty of learning the violin caused by the introduction of better bows and new strings and also better quality student violins. While 40 or 50 years ago grade 8 would get you a place at a university to study music performance, it won't now because most people who start an instrument can now pass grade 8. Another consideration is the introduction of marking course work as part of the GCSE exams. This means that many young people have less free time. If the exam boards increased the difficulty of grade 8 in line with the new technology in violin playing, far fewer people would pass any form of grade exams. This means that it could be the case that the exam boards do not make any money, which of course is their primary purpose.

Faster progress can be achieved by playing with other people from the start of learning a musical instrument.

It is for all the above reasons that I suggest that adults do not take grade exams. They really are a very elementary compared to what it is possible for an adult to play on an instrument.

You may have noticed that grade 8 is marked as advanced on the grade syllabus. This isn't advanced in terms of playing standards it is advanced in terms of the grade exams. So grade 8 is more advanced than grade 3.

I am just trying to explain why in terms of adult education grade 8 isn't something to aspire to. It might be in terms of school education but not in terms of adult education.


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## Ingélou

Jaws said:


> What I would like to suggest is that you ask your exam violin teacher to explain to you where in the standards possible to achieve on a musical instrument grade 8 comes. I find adults have a very difficult time understanding that grade 8 is not quite like A level....
> 
> I am just trying to explain why in terms of adult education grade 8 isn't something to aspire to. It might be in terms of school education but not in terms of adult education.


Wow, what a diatribe! Odd, if grade 8 is for primary school kids, that University Admissions Officers treat it as the equivalent of A-level...

I shall *not* be asking my exam teacher anything about grade 8, because I am *not* taking exams to get a certificate or enter university. I am taking exams as a strategy of choice, because I want to go on improving. Exams give me a chance to learn with a particular local teacher, & specifically to gain the experience of working up pieces, learning bow techniques, improving my sight-reading, learning to conquer my nerves in public, and being given an incentive to practise and learn vibrato. This was *made perfectly clear* in my post! Exams are just a small part of what I do, and I also learn about practical musicianship from my gifted fiddle teacher, who plays alongside me in lessons.

In my book, there's nothing wrong in an adult taking school subjects later in life. At university once I met an old man who said that 'he was still a student', and that is something I admire. Neither is there anything wrong with being compared to a child. We can all learn from children.

Jaws, as I said in my original reply to you, this thread is about *teaching styles*; here is a quotation from my opening post:

*Apart from having to pay two weekly fees, this is an ideal solution for me. My exam teacher of necessity has a narrow focus, but that's okay, as I get to play all sorts of adventurous repertoire with the other. The Inspired One does not make me do exercises, or tell me about keys and scales and arpeggios - but the exam tutor does, and that means when I am playing for my freer teacher, I can control the sound I am making much better than before. And this has given me confidence.*

In the context of my two teachers, it is natural that I'd wish to share the news that I'd passed my exam: 
*I have just passed my first music exam, Violin ABRSM Grade 3, with distinction. It is a lowly grade, but I am 'over the moon'. Thinking about it, I have an ideal set-up. My exam teacher is wonderfully thorough & kind, and my 'repertoire' teacher is imaginative, inspiring, challenging. I am blessed.*

Notice that nothing much is claimed for the 'lowly' grade 3, but I am basically saying that in my two teachers I have the ideal combination. I do not know why you feel impelled to spend such energy in denigrating grade exams on this thread and elsewhere. Many people have benefited from exams and disciplined teaching, and as long as adult pupils remain open to a variety of experiences, I cannot see the harm in it. Au contraire...


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## Jaws

Going back to the beginning of this thread, you have to decide what age you are aiming the poll at. Children under the age of 5 benefit from learning by ear, but adults benefit from learning to read music. Basically you can't use the same teaching methods with children and adults because it doesn't work. As the poll doesn't include any age indication then the results are meaningless. I will give you an example of what I mean. You can give a child a piece of music to learn that would drive an adult mad if they had to practice it. Children are totally content to play the same piece over and over again, adults get bored with that. You can tell a child what they have to practice for their next lesson and most of them will do some of it. An adult won't practice something unless they can see a reason for doing it. Adults ask lots and lots of questions. Children rarely do. 

To be absolutely honest the teaching style that works best with adults is one that includes playing in an ensemble as part of the learning experience. In fact you can learn to play the violin by lessons in ensembles and not individual. I would suggest that the best way to learn would be an individual lesson once a month and membership of at least one ensemble that practices every week. The student needs to lead the lesson because they need to practice the ensemble music. Playing lots of solo pieces to performance standard is a waste of time and energy because no one wants to listen to adults playing solo pieces badly and there aren't enough composers writing beginner standard music especially for performance by adult beginners, so what usually happens is that adult beginners have to play school music simplified arrangements of solo pieces, which of course don't have any relationship to what the pieces actually sound like. 

A small child playing a solo that sounds not very good can be forgiven for not playing the piece very well for their audience. Their music education has just started and they don't have much idea of what playing something well means. However an adult beginner has had a life time to listen to music and will know how it is supposed to sound. So playing badly to other adults who aren't themselves learning isn't fair to the people who have to listen to it, as an adult should be fully aware of what is expected in performance standards. Lessons for adults have to take this knowledge into account.


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## Ingélou

The poll was included merely to prompt discussion. I am glad that at last you have addressed the subject of the thread. I am interested to read your views but would point out that such ensemble playing is not possible for everyone, and that different adults may prefer a different way of proceeding.


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## Wood

Inge, I think it might be kind to let Jaws express himself without taking it personally or responding as such. We don't know him or his personal circumstances. I'm sure he'll move on soon enough.

More importantly, I am impressed by your achievement of passing Violin Grade 3 and encourage you to document your ongoing progress with the instrument on TC.


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## Ingélou

Wood said:


> Inge, I think it might be kind to let Jaws express himself without taking it personally or responding as such. We don't know him or his personal circumstances. I'm sure he'll move on soon enough.
> 
> More importantly, I am impressed by your achievement of passing Violin Grade 3 and encourage you to document your ongoing progress with the instrument on TC.


Thank you, Wood, that is very nice of you & I appreciate it. Live long & prosper!


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## Jaws

Wood said:


> Inge, I think it might be kind to let Jaws express himself without taking it personally or responding as such. We don't know him or his personal circumstances. I'm sure he'll move on soon enough.
> 
> More importantly, I am impressed by your achievement of passing Violin Grade 3 and encourage you to document your ongoing progress with the instrument on TC.


I am an adult late starter oboist. I don't take exams on the oboe or the violin. I play the violin in an adult beginners orchestra, and a small string ensemble. I spend a lot of time with adult beginners. However I started working life teaching children to play musical instruments in schools and before that doing freelance work as a professional horn player.

When I was at school I took grade 5 and grade 8 on the horn. Grade 5 one year and grade 8 the next. So I know how easy these exams are. I also took grade 6 on the viola and was absolutely hopeless in an ensemble. After a long time when I didn't have a viola I eventually started again and a few years later started the violin. I can play the violin much better than I could ever play the viola without any lessons and by only playing in an ensemble twice a week. I have a group of friends of whom 3 are learning to play the violin by only playing ensemble music.

I used to teach children the pieces for grade 8 so I am fully aware of how easy this exam is in comparison to what a professional player is expected to be able to do, or even what an experienced amateur chamber music player can do. This is how I know that it is an elementary exam.

I have been to a music conservatoire in the UK without ever taking any grade exams on the instrument that I auditioned on.

On the horn I took LTCL performers exam. This was much much lower in standard than that required for freelance playing. A job in a professional orchestra these days requires such a high standard of playing that all diplomas are now much too low as standards for anyone hoping to enter the music profession to even bother to take. I have met someone who passed FRSM on the oboe by doing 2 hours practice a day and working full time in marketing. Unfortunately they still didn't know how to start notes correctly or how to control the sound on the oboe. They were still using a beginners method to start the notes. This proves that you can pass FRSM using beginner technique. So what does that qualify you to do?

What I am writing about grade exams is not my opinion it is a description of what they are. I have not got a problem with people who to quote a friend "don't have anything better to spend their money on" apart from grade exams. Basically the only thing that grade exams do is to make money for the exam board, and for children give them certificates to collect. If you read the thread that I have started that explains about these exams for people who live in countries where they don't do them you will get a very good idea as to why they don't mean anything.


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## Wood

I see, well thank you for explaining Jaws.


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## mamascarlatti

Let's get an analogy with reading going here.

I learned to read English when I was three, and French when I was 6, and Greek when I was 25. Reading Greek was not too hard, because I already had a lot of knowledge about print and reading from my previous experience. These days I'm also managing to figure some Russian out informally. A bit like member Jaws learning another musical instrument as an adult, applying the experience and musical knowledge he gained as a child.

I recently spent a couple of years coaching a 65 year old woman who had never been to school as a child. She had never learned to read until her husband died 8 years ago. I got her quite late on in her learning journey, and she could probably figure out a text that a 7 year old would find easy. Progress was very slow, lots of barriers to learning including confidence, memory and lack of time. A spelling test written for an 8 year old would simply have terrified her.

Well, for an adult learning an instrument from scratch, with no musical background whatsoever, the situation can be similar. There are so many things to learn, from developing your sense of pitch, to molding your older body/fingers into new position, to overcoming your nerves at performing in front of others (remember, you never had those performing opportunities as a child), to learning to read the musical notation and relating it to a physical skill, as well as finding the time in a busy schedule to practise. Added to the fact that what you produce never corresponds to the model that you have in your head after years of listening to the best professionals in the world. 

So for many adults the Grade exams are fine, because that is where they are at in their learning journey. They are at an elementary stage. Compared with professionals. But perhaps not compared with where they are likely to end up.


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## Ingélou

mamascarlatti said:


> Let's get an analogy with reading going here.
> 
> I learned to read English when I was three, and French when I was 6, and Greek when I was 25. Reading Greek was not too hard, because I already had a lot of knowledge about print and reading from my previous experience. These days I'm also managing to figure some Russian out informally. A bit like member Jaws learning another musical instrument as an adult, applying the experience and musical knowledge he gained as a child.
> 
> I recently spent a couple of years coaching a 65 year old woman who had never been to school as a child. She had never learned to read until her husband died 8 years ago. I got her quite late on in her learning journey, and she could probably figure out a text that a 7 year old would find easy. Progress was very slow, lots of barriers to learning including confidence, memory and lack of time. A spelling test written for an 8 year old would simply have terrified her.
> 
> Well, for an adult learning an instrument from scratch, with no musical background whatsoever, the situation can be similar. There are so many things to learn, from developing your sense of pitch, to molding your older body/fingers into new position, to overcoming your nerves at performing in front of others (remember, you never had those performing opportunities as a child), to learning to read the musical notation and relating it to a physical skill, as well as finding the time in a busy schedule to practise. Added to the fact that what you produce never corresponds to the model that you have in your head after years of listening to the best professionals in the world.
> 
> So for many adults the Grade exams are fine, because that is where they are at in their learning journey. They are at an elementary stage. Compared with professionals. But perhaps not compared with where they are likely to end up.


Yes, Natalie, I have had adults in my GCSE (O level) English classes at the sixth form college I worked in. One had better reading and writing skills than the sixteen-year-olds who were having to retake their English to improve their university chances. But when she had been at school, she hadn't had the chance to take an exam, so the lessons were a good way of her gaining confidence and refreshing her knowledge, and she was very pleased and proud to pass the exam at the end. Her son was in the same class and he passed too. Did she mind being compared with him? No, and why should she? She'd done good work and 'gone for it' and was an absolute delight to teach.

I learned the violin at school in a non-exam context, but there were girls in my violin class who took exams & private lessons and knew about scales and keys, which I didn't, because the teachers came and went in our local education authority and just hustled us through a few pieces every week.

When I returned to the violin two years ago, my focus was on folk fiddle. But then I discovered baroque music and it was like an epiphany. So now I long to know more about music theory, not just for playing purposes but also for listening & appreciation. My fab baroque performer-teacher doesn't do scales or arpeggios, though he often talks about the character of keys, assuming I know about these things. But I don't - which makes me grateful for my exam teacher, because with him I have the chance to learn all this.

For Taggart & me, music is the centre of our lives. We are in our sixties with no children and do not delude ourselves that we'll ever 'get anywhere' in performing terms. But we are getting such joy out of it & feel that our retirement has been blessed. We both love being on TC, where we have come across many kind, helpful friends, and learned such a lot.

I confess, I am at a loss as to why a simple announcement of my progress and my pleasure in it has sparked off all this frenetic thread production.


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## Jaws

mamascarlatti said:


> Let's get an analogy with reading going here.
> 
> I learned to read English when I was three, and French when I was 6, and Greek when I was 25. Reading Greek was not too hard, because I already had a lot of knowledge about print and reading from my previous experience. These days I'm also managing to figure some Russian out informally. A bit like member Jaws learning another musical instrument as an adult, applying the experience and musical knowledge he gained as a child.
> 
> I recently spent a couple of years coaching a 65 year old woman who had never been to school as a child. She had never learned to read until her husband died 8 years ago. I got her quite late on in her learning journey, and she could probably figure out a text that a 7 year old would find easy. Progress was very slow, lots of barriers to learning including confidence, memory and lack of time. A spelling test written for an 8 year old would simply have terrified her.
> 
> Well, for an adult learning an instrument from scratch, with no musical background whatsoever, the situation can be similar. There are so many things to learn, from developing your sense of pitch, to molding your older body/fingers into new position, to overcoming your nerves at performing in front of others (remember, you never had those performing opportunities as a child), to learning to read the musical notation and relating it to a physical skill, as well as finding the time in a busy schedule to practise. Added to the fact that what you produce never corresponds to the model that you have in your head after years of listening to the best professionals in the world.
> 
> So for many adults the Grade exams are fine, because that is where they are at in their learning journey. They are at an elementary stage. Compared with professionals. But perhaps not compared with where they are likely to end up.


Please forgive me if I have got this wrong, but I always understood that if you were teaching an adult to read you would use try your absolute best to use resources to teach that represented the age of the adult. What I mean by this is that if you study a new language as an adult you would tend to go for a course that was related to what you wanted to use the language for. So an adult would most likely choose a course that would allow them to converse in the language on holiday etc. They probably wouldn't be very interested in learning about how to dress dolls or how to ask mom to help with baking cakes etc The problem with teaching to grades in the UK is that the material isn't designed for adults and is designed for use by small children. So you will get pieces called things like The Dolls Song or the Angry Crocodile. While you are learning these which are completely designed to appeal to young children you could be learning a "real" baroque piece of music.

In the UK you have to have a separate qualification to teach adults in adult education colleges. One for teaching children doesn't qualify you to teach adults. You don't need any form of qualification to teach adults music lessons privately so what some teachers do is to use the same teaching material for both children and adults. That this viewed as being acceptable is what I am trying to change.

I play in a small string group. When looking for music for this group I am extremely careful about what I find. If something looks as if it has been written for a school group I always ask if anyone minds first before we have go at playing it and if someone objects we wouldn't do it.

Recent research into learning music by adults in retirement shows that the vast majority of adult learners do not wish to use material produced for children, and that they feel that this is patronising.


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## Ingélou

In my grade 3 exam, I chose to play La Rotta, a medieval dance - Carolan's Air, by the blind Irish harper - and Puttin' on the Ritz by Irving Berlin. None of these are children's works. 

Other works on offer included Traumerei, meant for children but often appreciated by adults, a Corelli Gavotte, a Mozart piece, the Witches' Dance from Paganini, and Jardanyl's Hungarian Dance. In the supplementary music, you could also pick a tango - hardly kids' material. 

Music exams are not just about performance, though a large part of the marks is given for that. It is also about scales and arpeggios, recognising major and minor keys, recognising time signatures, being able to reproduce musical phrases, and sight reading. None of these are skills unsuited for adults.

In preparing for the exam, I significantly improved my timing and my sightreading, both of which were deficient. I had not improved them in two years of constant practising and playing, but a few weeks of exam focus did the trick. Such is human psychology. 

When teaching adults to read, you can use anything that interests them. There's a lot of simple material meant for adults, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with using children's literature to teach a father or grandmother to read.

There is nothing shameful in being a child. And there is nothing shameful in being an adult taking exams with children. Thousands of us do it, in all sorts of subjects, every year. There is nothing shameful about being pleased with a good result, either. It's called 'being human'.

There is also nothing wrong with being a music teacher teaching to exams or a music examiner marking or setting syllabuses. These are honourable people, making a living, but thinking about the welfare of their students. If they were merely making money in a cynical and useless fashion, they'd soon enough be found out, by the media or by education ministers!


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## Jaws

Ingélou said:


> Yes, Natalie, I have had adults in my GCSE (O level) English classes at the sixth form college I worked in. One had better reading and writing skills than the sixteen-year-olds who were having to retake their English to improve their university chances. But when she had been at school, she hadn't had the chance to take an exam, so the lessons were a good way of her gaining confidence and refreshing her knowledge, and she was very pleased and proud to pass the exam at the end. Her son was in the same class and he passed too. Did she mind being compared with him? No, and why should she? She'd done good work and 'gone for it' and was an absolute delight to teach.
> 
> I learned the violin at school in a non-exam context, but there were girls in my violin class who took exams & private lessons and knew about scales and keys, which I didn't, because the teachers came and went in our local education authority and just hustled us through a few pieces every week.
> 
> When I returned to the violin two years ago, my focus was on folk fiddle. But then I discovered baroque music and it was like an epiphany. So now I long to know more about music theory, not just for playing purposes but also for listening & appreciation. My fab baroque performer-teacher doesn't do scales or arpeggios, though he often talks about the character of keys, assuming I know about these things. But I don't - which makes me grateful for my exam teacher, because with him I have the chance to learn all this.
> 
> For Taggart & me, music is the centre of our lives. We are in our sixties with no children and do not delude ourselves that we'll ever 'get anywhere' in performing terms. But we are getting such joy out of it & feel that our retirement has been blessed. We both love being on TC, where we have come across many kind, helpful friends, and learned such a lot.
> 
> I confess, I am at a loss as to why a simple announcement of my progress and my pleasure in it has sparked off all this frenetic thread production.


Please don't take this personally, but I had no idea whether you understood what having passed a grade exam means or not.

I spend a lot of time with adult starters on musical instruments, and I have to correct a lot of misconceptions about these exams.

The main one being that having passed a grade exam means that you have a qualification in music. Which isn't true you don't, all you have is a certificate.

You have tried to compare the achievement with passing grade music exams with GCSEs but this doesn't work. I think you will agree that if an adult passes a GCSE they have a real qualification that can lead to A levels or maybe more responsibility at work or even a small pay rise. So passing a GCSE as an adult would I understand give someone a real achievement.

Grade exams do not lead to anything other than another grade exam. You can't use them to get a job or a pay rise or more responsibility at work because they are not recognised as qualifications in the music business or even in music education. So you can't apply the same logic to them as you would to other forms of qualification. You can still feel an achievement for passing one, but you can't expect other adult musicians to support you in this.

From a lot or experience I have found that many adults cannot grasp the concept of an exam that doesn't lead to any form of qualification in music apart from a qualification within grade exams. So when someone says "I have passed grade 3" they aren't saying" I am qualified in music up to the level called grade 3," they are actually saying, " I have passed a test called grade 3 that means that I would probably pass one called grade 2 but would probably fail a test called grade 4. I personally can't think of any other test in anything that is like this, so I completely understand why an adult would find this confusing.

What I am trying to do is to suggest that there are better ways of getting satisfaction from achievements in music than taking grade exams. Do you know about the Benslow Trust? It is in Hitchen and it runs residential music courses for adults. Have a look at their programme of courses. They run courses for folk music, beginner string ensemble, baroque music courses etc. A Benslow course actually costs less than a grade exam when you factor in all the costs of the exam, the music, the exam scale book which only contains scales for grade exams, the entry fee and all of the lessons dedicated towards preparing for the exam.

To solve your problem of theory and scales, buy a scale book, not one of the ABRSM ones as they don't have all of the useful scales in them and buy a book on music theory. Much of the music theory that the ABRSM exams teach are not what musicians do in practice, so for baroque ornaments you need a book on baroque ornaments not an ABRSM theory book on ornaments.

Here is an example of music theory that is not quite correct but taught as theory. Staccato is taught as being half the value of the note that it is written on. This is not correct. A staccato note is the length that fits into the style of the music that you are playing. So sometimes a staccato crotchet will be almost a full crotchet or less in value than a semiquaver. It depends on the context.


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## Ingélou

Jaws said:


> I spend a lot of time with adult starters on musical instruments, and I have to correct a lot of misconceptions about these exams.
> 
> The main one being that having passed a grade exam means that you have a qualification in music. Which isn't true you don't, all you have is a certificate.
> 
> You have tried to compare the achievement with passing grade music exams with GCSEs but this doesn't work. I think you will agree that if an adult passes a GCSE they have a real qualification that can lead to A levels or maybe more responsibility at work or even a small pay rise. So passing a GCSE as an adult would I understand give someone a real achievement.
> 
> Grade exams do not lead to anything other than another grade exam. You can't use them to get a job or a pay rise or more responsibility at work because they are not recognised as qualifications in the music business or even in music education. So you can't apply the same logic to them as you would to other forms of qualification. You can still feel an achievement for passing one, but you can't expect other adult musicians to support you in this.
> 
> From a lot or experience I have found that many adults cannot grasp the concept of an exam that doesn't lead to any form of qualification in music apart from a qualification within grade exams. So when someone says "I have passed grade 3" they aren't saying" I am qualified in music up to the level called grade 3," they are actually saying, " I have passed a test called grade 3 that means that I would probably pass one called grade 2 but would probably fail a test called grade 4. I personally can't think of any other test in anything that is like this, so I completely understand why an adult would find this confusing.


Thank you for your concern, but I am not under any misconception. I have a friend who was in the same violin class as me as a child who took all the grade exams which were useful for her academic course in early music at university and she has had a very fulfilling career as a teacher, a player in provincial symphony orchestras and is now retired and enjoying making experimental music. As a retired educational professional, I am well aware of what music exams amount to, and as I have explained in a number of posts, my decision to take exams was embarked on as a specific strategy to increase my knowledge of music techniques and theories. Most of my time is spent playing klezmer, baroque, folk tunes, Playford and Carolan with my 'repertoire' teacher who is a respected performer in baroque and folk music. So you see, I don't need your guidance.

May I say that I think assuming that adults don't understand concepts that you see so clearly is underestimating the intelligence and diversity of adults. Thank you for telling me about the Benslow Trust. I will look into it. But of course I have several ideas myself about fiddle schools (fiddle 'hells' ) in Britain and Ireland as I belong to another Forum that specialises in Irish Traditional Music.

I have all sorts of self-help books, but as I have difficulty with understanding theory, I really think I will do better with my well -qualified exam teacher (a performer too; he runs a string quartet to play at weddings etc), as he is brilliant at demonstrating and explaining. Experiments in education suggest that females often fare better learning something when discussion is involved, and whether or not that is correct, it certainly applies to me. Words are my forte! 

It's not the first time I've learned something as an adult. Some years ago I took an AS level in Religious Studies which involved learning New Testament Greek. I enjoy studying and learning new things, and as PetrB says, exams do at least provide a deadline which can spur you into action.

On their own, exams can be limited and narrow. But as a part of a balanced diet, they can provide much needed nourishment.

So rest assured - I know myself - I know how I learn best - and I know what I want to achieve in music and fiddlecraft.
Best of all - I'm having fun!


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## Ingélou

I have parted company with my exam teacher - not because I didn't want to take any more exams, however. I did.

After taking my first music exam ever - grade 3 - I was busy playing pieces from a repertoire book which were teaching me about positions and bow strokes. This seemed a good idea, except that I felt that I was being rushed along & had hardly learned one technique before being pushed on to the next. It is neither pleasant nor useful to struggle through a piece each week, sounding *dire* - be told that it was satisfactory but that I could work on it - and then never get to play it again even when it *was* improved.

I tried to raise this with my teacher, and suggest that I'd like to spend more time on some pieces; but he took this as a questioning of his authority. He became more demanding, which made me even more nervous, and the gap between the practice room and the lesson room became ever greater. He also began cancelling lessons at short notice, making me feel that my progress didn't much matter to him.

In the end, fed up of my doubts, he finished the (half-hour) lesson ten minutes early; he made no apology & blamed it on my 'negativity'. He appeared to think that the lessons would go on as normal the next week, but suddenly I saw that he was not the right person to teach me. Not only am I an adult, but I am an older woman and an ex-teacher. I can't just have orders handed down from on high. I have to *understand* and be allowed to *discuss* my progress and give *feedback* on how I'm finding the learning process. So I rang him afterwards to terminate our lesson arrangement.

_So in this thread about teaching styles, I have moved positions, based on my experience._

I began by requiring more method and discipline than I was getting from my baroque-performer teacher, 'The Inspired One'; I have now realised how lucky I am to have a teacher who is so charismatic. In addition, after a forthright discussion in May, the I. O. has been flexible enough to change his teaching process and accommodate my need for explanations.

*This in my view is the sine qua non of being a good teacher - assessing the learning needs of your student and adopting the best strategy to meet them. 
*
The rupture with my exam teacher was very upsetting at the time, but I am not sorry that I had lessons with him for ten months. Taking the exam and getting a distinction in it helped my confidence tremendously, and I've improved in certain techniques - bowing, vibrato, using my fourth finger, and sight-reading. 
It also clarified my ideas as to what I want to do - which is to concentrate on early music/baroque & folk fiddle. These are the types of music that I love, and these - serendipitously - are the specialities of The Inspired One. 
Also, as a by-product of the exam, I met up with Ruth, a lovely local accompanist who will now become Taggart's piano teacher for a while, as his regular teacher Jane is seriously ill and has to take six months off. Jane is a lovely person and we wish her the best & speediest recovery.


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## Ingélou

Ingélou said:


> I tried to raise this with my teacher, and suggest that I'd like to spend more time on some pieces; but he took this as a questioning of his authority. * He became more demanding...


** 'My father chastised you with whips; I will chastise you with scorpions!' *


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## hpowders

I voted for the first one. Highly structured. Kids in assigned seats from day one. They quickly found out who the boss was.
Anyone doing anything deemed inappropriate-I immediately pointed my pen at the offender, twirled the pen in the air, caught it and then wrote a mark on his seating card. That drove them nuts and delighted the amused onlookers. Psychological warfare with a flourish. They never, ever saw me sweat.

Yet many of them wanted to be in my class, based on "recommendations" of former students. They loved the comedy monologues. But those came after at least a month, when they and I felt comfortable and I could "relax" a bit. The urchins called me "cool".

I do miss it.

Getting back to music-when I was taking clarinet lessons, my teacher spoke about politics for about 20 minutes and then I played some practiced etudes and duets with him. He was a fine player and relaxed me with his political discussions. Not strict at all.


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## Ingélou

Wish I could have sat in on your classes! Especially the comedy monologues.


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## hpowders

Ingélou said:


> Wish I could have sat in on your classes! Especially the comedy monologues.


I would have put you in front with the other smart kids.

The important thing was assigning them seats on day one. They quickly realized that if you immediately knew their names, they couldn't make trouble.


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## hpowders

I would have positioned Taggart somewhere in the rear. Wouldn't want you to be distracted from chemistry and comedy.


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## Ingélou

C-c-c-chemistry???


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## hpowders

Ingélou said:


> C-c-c-chemistry???


You could do it! I would laugh you through it.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Strictness stresses me out, it works but it makes the experience very unpleasant to me which encourages me to quit. Strict doesn't necessarily mean demanding. The textbook has the advantage that (I assume) it makes easier the organization of classes and it helps as long as one doesn't remain constrained by it. Experienced teachers generally have their classes already perfected so there the book is of lesser importance. I like the idea of constant exploration. I think it is very necessary (specially today) to have equal opportunities, that the student doesn't require any previous musical knowledge in order to start taking serious classes.


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## Ingélou

Teaching is a very personal activity and experience. Someone who teaches by drills or by using text books can deaden a subject for their students - or by injecting the exercises with humour and the feeling that the teacher loves his/her subject and cares about his/her pupils' progress, they can be very effective. Most of us over a certain age have the experience of learning from a strict teacher who was charismatic and who made the subject sing. 
Similarly, one who prefers liberality and hates rules may come across as don't-carish or too eager to be liked; or they may infuse their apparent lack of order with passion and a love of beauty. 

Temperamentally, I prefer ordered teaching and am apt to distrust the lack of it; but I feel that my exam teacher stressed strictness without taking account of me as a person or of my learning needs. He wanted me to do well, but only to show what a good teacher he was; at the end of the day, I think he was scared of narrowing the gap. 
But it's much more satisfactory when teachers and students work together.


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## hpowders

Okay everybody!! At the sound of the whistle, TEXTBOOKS UP!!!!


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## Ingélou

I go into further detail about teaching & learning issues in my blog *Never Too Old To Fiddle *http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/ing-lou/ if anyone is interested. I have fun writing it, and also hope that it may help older learners, and teachers of adults.


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## Ingélou

Over a year later, and I've decided to concentrate on learning Scottish & Irish traditional music. My main faults are that I'm not fast enough & that I haven't mastered some of the bowing skills, particularly for strathspey.

Another huge issue is lack of confidence. I play now in a local pub session & can cope with their repertoire & also don't feel too nervous as I've got to know them. But I still break down regularly in lessons in front of my charismatic & demanding teacher. So from his point of view, my main fault is my timidity. He is about to start his own pub session & I know that I may break down playing in front of him in public...

If anybody is reading this, do you have any advice for boosting confidence?
All advice gratefully received!


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## Ingélou

Well, nobody read it - or nobody had any advice.

Happily, it wasn't needed. I've been to two of my fiddle teacher's pub sessions and I found I didn't feel nervous and was able to join in a number of the tunes. My main tip for success is 'lower the bar' - I went with the intention of 'just being there' and listening, and said to myself that if I could join in two tunes, it would be enough. But I managed 11 the first time and 38 the second. It also helped that I felt part of a team, as some players from my other pub session were there and I didn't want them to be left out so kept suggesting tunes that they could lead, and when they did so, I supported them. 

It was an exhilarating experience not to be nervous for once!


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## Guest

My instructor of the past 5 years is a stickler about scales. Know your scales--all of them--ascending and descending, major and minor (including natural, melodic and harmonic). Know your bop scales. Be able to play them crossing over strings and learn to play them on a single string. Know them both pizzicato and arco. Know where every last note is on that fingerboard and be able to find it instantly. If you can do that, you're 60% of the way there.

I study from certain manuals steadfastly but I'll buy various manuals I come across online and he'll incorporate them into the lessons and also gives them to his other students. We do recitals once a year and we'll talk over what I should perform and repertoire is about 50-50. There are certain things we are going to practice no matter what but beyond that, he appreciates a bit of input from the student. So while he made me learn Bach's "Violin concerto in A Minor" and Monk's "Straight No Chaser," (and "So What" of course) I also found sheet music online for other things to study such as "The Ragtime Bass Player," Mendelssohn's "Spring Song" and "We Be Three Poor Mariners." During Christmas season, we always study a new carol which he usually chooses but when I played him my own version of "It Came Upon a Midnight Clear" in the minor key, he loved it.

But everything we play, he taught me to reach back to the scales and bring them into the piece. That way I can see what chord progression of the piece. As for technique, I learn them while practicing the scales so that when I bring the scales into a piece of music, I bring the techniques with them. 

Bottom line--learn your scales, chords, progressions and know your music theory. If you're playing jazz, know your charts, develop your chart skills. You really can't play classical or jazz if you can't read music well. Others may disagree but when it comes to those two styles, I can't play with musicians who can't read. Rock or blues? Sure. You can be self-taught and not read a lick and all I care about is that you can play. But jazz or classical? Sorry but you gotta read as well as play. Can't read? I can't use you.


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## senza sordino

Ingélou said:


> Well, nobody read it - or nobody had any advice.
> 
> Happily, it wasn't needed. I've been to two of my fiddle teacher's pub sessions and I found I didn't feel nervous and was able to join in a number of the tunes. My main tip for success is 'lower the bar' - I went with the intention of 'just being there' and listening, and said to myself that if I could join in two tunes, it would be enough. But I managed 11 the first time and 38 the second. It also helped that I felt part of a team, as some players from my other pub session were there and I didn't want them to be left out so kept suggesting tunes that they could lead, and when they did so, I supported them.
> 
> It was an exhilarating experience not to be nervous for once!


Yes, it's exhilarating making music with others. I'm glad to hear you can make music with others, there's no greater feeling than that, in my opinion.

I don't have any answers to the original question, which is the best teaching method. Depends on the student, depends on the teacher, depends on what you want, depends on age, depends on ability, depends on physical limitations.

As for confidence, its sounds like you gained some confidence making music with others. All performers have some level of anxiety before and during a performance. But in many cases, the audience is forgiving and just appreciates the music. I guess if the audience paid a lot for a performance they might have high expectations, but if the price of admission is the price of a beer in a pub, the audience will love almost whatever you do.


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## WilliamApocalypse

Definitely a teacher with a plan and allows student to modify it.

As long as the student does not practice incorrectly and puts their heart into the piece, song, riff , whatever. It tends to give students more motivation from my outlook.

Though some students teachers who seem to push strict rules can be better teachers.

There's a difference between the guitarist who is so good and is literally bored of their instrument from being so technically advance and the musician who plays from heart and soul. There are a few who do both but that is quite rare.


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## Poodle

Victor Redseal said:


> My instructor of the past 5 years is a stickler about scales. Know your scales--all of them--ascending and descending, major and minor (including natural, melodic and harmonic). Know your bop scales. Be able to play them crossing over strings and learn to play them on a single string. Know them both pizzicato and arco. Know where every last note is on that fingerboard and be able to find it instantly. If you can do that, you're 60% of the way there.
> 
> I study from certain manuals steadfastly but I'll buy various manuals I come across online and he'll incorporate them into the lessons and also gives them to his other students. We do recitals once a year and we'll talk over what I should perform and repertoire is about 50-50. There are certain things we are going to practice no matter what but beyond that, he appreciates a bit of input from the student. So while he made me learn Bach's "Violin concerto in A Minor" and Monk's "Straight No Chaser," (and "So What" of course) I also found sheet music online for other things to study such as "The Ragtime Bass Player," Mendelssohn's "Spring Song" and "We Be Three Poor Mariners." During Christmas season, we always study a new carol which he usually chooses but when I played him my own version of "It Came Upon a Midnight Clear" in the minor key, he loved it.
> 
> But everything we play, he taught me to reach back to the scales and bring them into the piece. That way I can see what chord progression of the piece. As for technique, I learn them while practicing the scales so that when I bring the scales into a piece of music, I bring the techniques with them.
> 
> Bottom line--learn your scales, chords, progressions and know your music theory. If you're playing jazz, know your charts, develop your chart skills. You really can't play classical or jazz if you can't read music well. Others may disagree but when it comes to those two styles, I can't play with musicians who can't read. Rock or blues? Sure. You can be self-taught and not read a lick and all I care about is that you can play. But jazz or classical? Sorry but you gotta read as well as play. Can't read? I can't use you.


Whatever works :tiphat:


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## Pugg

senza sordino said:


> Yes, it's exhilarating making music with others. I'm glad to hear you can make music with others, there's no greater feeling than that, in my opinion.
> 
> I don't have any answers to the original question, which is the best teaching method. Depends on the student, depends on the teacher, depends on what you want, depends on age, depends on ability, depends on physical limitations.
> 
> As for confidence, its sounds like you gained some confidence making music with others. All performers have some level of anxiety before and during a performance. But in many cases, the audience is forgiving and just appreciates the music. I guess if the audience paid a lot for a performance they might have high expectations, but if the price of admission is the price of a beer in a pub, the audience will love almost whatever you do.


The red part, is the best .


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## Ingélou

There are lots of Learn A Tune A Day fiddle videos on YouTube and they're very useful when I want to find something to play along with - learn a tune by ear - and add something to my repertoire.

And when I go to Fiddle Schools, a lot of them (not all) concentrate on learning new tunes by ear together, which is a good experience and hones the skills. 

But for an improver to learn a new tune a day, rather than working to consolidate, seems rather a bad idea?

What do you think? Would a new tune a week, or a month, be a better idea? Or not to have such schemes at all?


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## Chopin Fangirl

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## Ingélou

Chopin Fangirl said:


> I think the best are those who teach technique somewhat strictly, and expects great technique in repertoire... but also encourages creativity, expression, and phrasing. And those who sets their style as whatever is most beneficial to the specific student's needs and goals.


Ah - the gold standard! A great definition, though I've never found such a teacher.

PS - 'And those who set their style as whatever is most beneficial to the specific student's needs and goals.' 
If the teacher does that, one doesn't really need the first two requirements.


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## Ingélou

Is there anyone on TC who's gone from face-to-face instrumental lessons to zoom or skype? What is your experience of the differences? Is it all loss, or does the 'remote' lesson have some advantages, possibly as regards killing nerves and increasing confidence?


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