# Personal problem with an artist



## DaddyGeorge (Mar 16, 2020)

Hi all. Is there an artist that is universally recognized, but that you don't like for purely personal reasons? In short, he/she bothers you somehow and you can't even try to be objective. I have this problem with pianist Lukas Vondracek. People around me and even music experts admire him (he won the Queen Elisabeth piano competition), but I only see a smug boy who tries to draw attention to himself without respect for the authors. I don't believe his emotions and can't enjoy his playing... Do you feel such a dislike of someone?





I was at this concert (but I didn't enjoy it).


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

I'm glad I don't know any artists personally because I'm sure I would dislike some of them. That would rob me of the ability to enjoy their artistry and who wants that? I wouldn't want to have known any of my beloved composers personally, either.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

I like to separate the artist from the art. Otherwise I would never listen to composers such as Wagner, Gesualdo, Lully, and others who seem to be deeply unlikable personalities.

However, there is one pianist who not only has a poor personality but is also an uninspired and tasteless player-this pianist is Valentina Lisitsa and I will gladly never listen to her ever again-her pitifully small repertoire has been played a dozen times over by far superior pianists.

Her racist and distasteful rhetoric is also well documented.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...015/04/09/my-bloody-valentina/?outputType=amp

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/04/...certs-cancelled-for-racism-and-hate-speech-2/

http://www.juliadavisnews.com/artic...-vitriol-nazi-rhetoric-or-music-to-your-ears/


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

DaddyGeorge said:


> I only see a smug boy *who tries to draw attention to himself* without respect for the authors.


I find that sort of attitude in pianists like Lang Lang. 
This is often called "Concerto for Left Hand and Right Leg", if you watch it, you'll know why:


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## DaddyGeorge (Mar 16, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I find that sort of attitude in pianists like Lang Lang.


Yes, me too. Lang Lang's recording I'm not listening at all. I don't have such a problem with Yuja Wang, I have her CDs (including Ravel concertos) and I like them. Maybe it's sometimes better if you don't see the interpret...


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I wondered with the OP whether the dislike is visual or prompted by a visual impression? Perhaps not but words like "smug" might not be the first to come to mind when describing qualities of his playing alone. I've not listened to him, though.


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## DaddyGeorge (Mar 16, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> I wondered with the OP whether the dislike is visual or prompted by a visual impression? Perhaps not but words like "smug" might not be the first to come to mind when describing qualities of his playing alone. I've not listened to him, though.


Your remark is accurate. I think it depends very much on the performer's manners both on stage and off stage. The above-mentioned pianist also resented me with his opinions and behavior in interviews with the media (that's why "smug" comes to my mind).


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I've done that, too, but its not really fair. Maybe someone can set up a blind test for you - 6 pianists including this one playing a short piece and you get to rank them. That way you'll know if it the person or the musician you dislike.


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## caracalla (Feb 19, 2020)

DaddyGeorge said:


> I think it depends very much on the performer's manners both on stage and off stage.


So far as on-stage is concerned, it can certainly make a difference either way. I've always found that charismatic performers can add a good deal to a musical experience - more so in the concert hall than on video, but sometimes that too. On the negative side, unfortunate expressions and/or mannerisms can be very distracting, especially on video (a problem very easily eliminated). Sometimes affectation is at fault, but more often I think it's just performers reacting naturally to music in a way that is off-putting to observe.

Off-stage, I couldn't care less about their political opinions, their private lives or anything like that. Otoh if I actually witness them being obnoxious to other people on film or in a radio interview, it can certainly prejudice me against them. On the rare occasions this has happened, I try to forget about it. My interest in these people is solely as music-makers, and that's how I want to judge them. Their personality defects really shouldn't be my concern.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

This can work the other way around, too, with particular feelings of personal affinity toward an artist making one's experience of the artist's work more meaningful and pleasurable. I have been aware of this effect since I had the great good fortune of meeting virtuoso pianist John Browning in the middle 1970s. He gave performances quite regularly at my college and led some seminars for music students (not piano specifically). He was a beautiful, generous man and a deep and clear thinker about music, art, and the arts scene. My special admiration for Mr. Browning's music is certainly due in part to my personal affinity with him and my gratitude to him. I'm glad that I have never had a bad personal encounter with an artist, as I can easily imagine how that would turn me off from him/her regardless of strictly musical considerations.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

If there is one who I would include it would be Christian Thielemann. His, general persona, politics and (to me) supercilious attitude just grate on me to the point that I have no interest in anything done by him - and I have seen concerts and interviews that he has done.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Is there an artist that is universally recognized, but that you don't like for purely personal reasons?_

Not for me; I try to judge the product, not the person.

I've found plenty of reasons to dislike some, however. Plenty of conductors whose music I've enjoyed, including Charles Dutoit and James Levine, have been implicated in sexual harassment situations.

One of my favorite conductors over the years was Johannes Somary who died 2011. I never knew this previously but the Internet is full of documentation from former students of a New York school he ran that for decades he sexually molested them.

Robert King, a mostly Baroque conductor from England, did a prison term for sex with underage children.

I have Jewish friends who never bought or listened to recordings by Karajan or Karl Bohm or others because or real or imagined links to Nazism.

I have admired the violin playing of the artist known variably as Nigel Kennedy or just plain Kennedy though many I knew eschew him for his extra-musical antics, his appearance, and his alleged syrupy or cloying style of playing.

I thought Bernstein and Mahler such a good pairing because they were both mixed up guys -- Bernstein because of his sexuality, Mahler because of his religion.

Bernstein, son of a shoemaker, was a self-taught musician who grew up traditionally as a husband and father. In mid-life he left that to become a gay man in New York with a partner. He later returned to the other role. I knew people in my life like that; their lives were tortured.

Mahler was a Jew and wrote a symphony about the act of Christian resurrection. Jews who practice religion don't believe in the New Testament or Christ. Unlike Mendelssohn, whose father left the Jewish faith and converted to Christianity, then taught it to Felix and Fanny, Mahler alwasy seemed to me unsure of much in his life.

I knew people like this in my life and, while not separating from them, was fairly exhausted by the drama of their lives. Mahler's music regularly exhausts me, especially with Bernstein conducting it.

I've performed and worked with conductors and musical artists of many types that I did not like personally, did not enjoy working with, and/or had extreme differences on artistic style but, if the final product was good, I forgave or put that aside. The object was producing a show, not feeling good about everything.

I've found in life it's what you make of opportunity that is more important than how you feel about it. Same with people.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Lukas Vondracek sounds good to me. I do have a problem with Daniel Barienboim's face, and with Alfred Brendel's raised eyebrows. That female, Uchida, does the eyebrow-raising thing as well.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Years ago we went to an afternoon party thrown by neighbors. Upper middle class families with kids were there. A girl who was about 13 gave a violin recital. 

She was not your average kid musician, she was special. Other parents tried to hide their envy. She played like an adult with virtuoso skill and her trance-like face reflected the deep sensitivity her interpretation expressed. 

A few weeks later we were dining out in our favorite Chinese restaurant. Who should be seated at the table next to us but this same girl and her family. I doubt they remembered us. We could hear their conversation and it was grating. She sounded like an entitled, spoiled child and with a sarcastic, arrogant, overindulging father. They mocked the restaurant as not being up to their standards. They mocked everything. I almost told them to shut up, or keep it down.

It's hard to reconcile the person who produced such beautiful music with the insufferable person in the restaurant. I never knew her name and wonder if she became a famous musician.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Of come now, surely there must be some Karajan hatred for people to revel in...

Personally, Nigel Kennedy rubs me the wrong way.
Bernstein's persona is not my personal cup of tea, but I have few problems with his music-making.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Of come now, surely there must be some Karajan hatred for people to revel in...
> 
> Personally, Nigel Kennedy rubs me the wrong way.
> Bernstein's persona is not my personal cup of tea, but I have few problems with his music-making.


Frankly if we go by people we can like in the music profession or are morally upright then have very slim pickings indeed. Yes Karajan was a ruthless dictator in some ways but he made marvellous music. Nigel Kennedy annoys me greatly when he puts down his violin and starts talking in his fake working-class accent. It probably grates on me more because of my own working-class roots. Reading Bernsteins biography the last part of it does not make pleasant reading at least morally. But then you can go onto other musicians like Heifetz who Was certainly less than god-like when he put his violin down. But then among composers I wouldn't like to have been Beethoven's friend even though his music is absolutely wonderful. And as for Wagner, you would have to watch your wife and your wallet all the time. And awful lot of these guys were unfortunately far from the perfect human beings romance has tried to paint them. But then so are most of our heroes. The list is endless and probably includes us anyway


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> I find that sort of attitude in pianists like Lang Lang.
> This is often called "Concerto for Left Hand and Right Leg", if you watch it, you'll know why:


Funny because Lang Lang always strikes me as being quite a likeable chap when he's interviewed. I don't know what he's like as a person. As for Yuja, she's going through a belated teen phase I would think. She plays marvellously though and appears great fun. Let's remember the distinguished Frederick Gulda once gave a concert in the nude!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

deleted.................


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

That contrabassoon impressed me more than her leg.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Becca said:


> If there is one who I would include it would be Christian Thielemann. His, general persona, politics and (to me) supercilious attitude just grate on me to the point that I have no interest in anything done by him - and I have seen concerts and interviews that he has done.


What are his political views?

You probably saw his Berlin Philharmonic intermission interview. I was surprised how no-nonsense he was, making less attempt to charm an audience than other conductors do.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

When saying these kind of things about TC-members, who actually can respond, the mods stop the show. Interesting phenomenon.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Open Book said:


> What are his political views?
> 
> You probably saw his Berlin Philharmonic intermission interview. I was surprised how no-nonsense he was, making less attempt to charm an audience than other conductors do.


Apparently right wing & ultra-nationalist. I will quote the Wikipedia article but also note that I have come across these in other places...
"Thielemann attracted controversy after attribution of anti-semitic remarks to him in 2000, regarding Daniel Barenboim, which Thielemann subsequently denied. Other controversy has related to Thielemann's publication of opinions in sympathy with the Pegida [anti-Islamic] movement."


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

--------------------------------------------


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Becca said:


> Apparently right wing & ultra-nationalist. I will quote the Wikipedia article but also note that I have come across these in other places...
> "Thielemann attracted controversy after attribution of anti-semitic remarks to him in 2000, regarding Daniel Barenboim, which Thielemann subsequently denied. Other controversy has related to Thielemann's publication of opinions in sympathy with the Pegida [anti-Islamic] movement."


"Christian Thielemann - the power and the politics"

https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2009/oct/15/christian-thielemann

CHRISTIAN THIELEMANN: WE SHOULD LISTEN TO PEGIDA ISSUES -

https://slippedisc.com/2015/01/christian-thielemann-we-should-listen-to-pegida-issues

Thielmann defends himself -

'What has C sharp minor got to do with fascism?'

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2001/jan/04/artsfeatures1


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Frankly if we go by people we can like in the music profession or are morally upright then have very slim pickings indeed. Yes Karajan was a ruthless dictator in some ways but he made marvellous music. Nigel Kennedy annoys me greatly when he puts down his violin and starts talking in his fake working-class accent. It probably grates on me more because of my own working-class roots. Reading Bernsteins biography the last part of it does not make pleasant reading at least morally. But then you can go onto other musicians like Heifetz who Was certainly less than god-like when he put his violin down. But then among composers I wouldn't like to have been Beethoven's friend even though his music is absolutely wonderful. And as for Wagner, you would have to watch your wife and your wallet all the time. And awful lot of these guys were unfortunately far from the perfect human beings romance has tried to paint them. But then so are most of our heroes. The list is endless and probably includes us anyway


Pshaw. NOBODY on this forum has any personality quirks or idiosyncrasies. PSHAW, I SAY!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Becca said:


> Apparently right wing & ultra-nationalist. I will quote the Wikipedia article but also note that I have come across these in other places...
> "Thielemann attracted controversy after attribution of anti-semitic remarks to him in 2000, regarding Daniel Barenboim, which Thielemann subsequently denied. Other controversy has related to Thielemann's publication of opinions in sympathy with the Pegida [anti-Islamic] movement."


The problem is what the press say about him and what he actually believes. They said a lot of things about Karajan and a whole lot of it was nonsense. That's not the defend HvK's objectionable membership of the Nazis but some of the accusations that followed were a complete fabrication. We know today that if somebody is known to be to the right of centre politically then there are those of left will have a go at them and there are no holds barred.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

DavidA said:


> The problem is what the press say about him and what he actually believes. They said a lot of things about Karajan and a whole lot of it was nonsense. That's not the defend HvK's objectionable membership of the Nazis but some of the accusations that followed were a complete fabrication. *We know today that if somebody is known to be to the right of centre politically then there are those of left will have a go at them and there are no holds barred.*


We do, do we?? It is interesting to observe what part of the political spectrum that type of comment usually comes from ... interesting but not in the least bit surprising. Meanwhile about the media 'problem' ... did you pay attention to this "...Thielemann's publication of opinions..."?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Becca said:


> We do, do we?? It is interesting to observe what part of the political spectrum that type of comment usually comes from ... interesting but not in the least bit surprising. Meanwhile about the media 'problem' ... did you pay attention to this "...Thielemann's publication of opinions..."?


Yep. I happen to know how things get distorted on both sides of the spectrum. Yes I looked at Thielemann's publication of opinions and noted what he denied saying. I honestly have no opinion of the man and have actually heard little of him. I just know how things get distorted.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

For whatever it's worth, I am a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat, and I adore Karajan.

I do think it is possible to separate the art from the person.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I don’t much care for Mitsuko Uchida’s facial expressions and pedantic “conducting” from the piano on her YouTube videos of Mozart concerti, but taken by itself her playing is stellar and she’s probably a top-5 pianist for me. I actually envy her for feeling so much visceral emotion from Mozart - I have no idea how the 20th Piano Concerto could inspire such a response in someone, but somehow it does. In all fairness I feel the exact same way as Ms. Uchida does about Bach’s Goldbergs and Art of Fugue, which other people see as “dry” and “intellectual” - something which I can’t possibly comprehend.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> I find that sort of attitude in pianists like Lang Lang.
> This is often called "Concerto for Left Hand and Right Leg", if you watch it, you'll know why:


Well, Yuja didn't wear _that_ outfit when I saw her in concert with Manfred Honeck and the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra several years ago at Heinz Hall in Pittsburgh. Which is probably why I remember what she played that day: the Tchaikovsky Concerto No. 1. I do know she used _both_ hands that day.

As for Lukas Vondracek, I don't know much about him nor have I seen him live in concert. But I watched the video. I figure that when somebody comes along and invents the facial recognition piano, he'll be able to play without using his hands -- just by grimacing in different ways at the keyboard.

I collect recordings by the Russian maestro Mravinsky, and I admire his music-making greatly. But from the various photos I've seen of the man, I'm pretty sure I would not have wanted to sit in the orchestra he was conducting. He reminds me too much of a Vice-Principal I once had in elementary school, and that guy didn't like me too much. He was mean.





















Those, by the way, are all pics of conductor Mravinsky, not of that Vice-Principal I told you about.

As for the following picture: it seems that Shostakovich must have known that same Vice-Principal, or someone like him. In any case, he looks awfully uncomfortable in the presence of Mravinsky. He looks almost scared.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It _is_ funny how watching a musician can influence what we hear. I've noted it a lot the other way - _liking _performers after watching them - and have been convinced that what I was hearing was playing/singing that I greatly liked ... only to later hear the same performance without vision and finding it rather ordinary!


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

SONNET CLV said:


> As for the following picture: it seems that Shostakovich must have known that same Vice-Principal, or someone like him. In any case, he looks awfully uncomfortable in the presence of Mravinsky. He looks almost scared.
> 
> View attachment 132994


S'possible that it's more a reaction to the general atmosphere at the time than it is a reaction to Mravinsky.

Which of the the photographed individuals had more reason to fear the proverbial '3am knock-on-the-door?'

NOT a trick question.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Becca said:


> Apparently right wing & ultra-nationalist. I will quote the Wikipedia article but also note that I have come across these in other places...
> "Thielemann attracted controversy after attribution of anti-semitic remarks to him in 2000, regarding Daniel Barenboim, which Thielemann subsequently denied. Other controversy has related to Thielemann's publication of opinions in sympathy with the Pegida [anti-Islamic] movement."


Fact: Thielemann is Musikdirektor at the Bayreuther Festspiele since 2015. Oops, Wagner, extreme right wing and anti-semitism, a nerve better not hit here at TC


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

NLAdriaan said:


> Fact: Thielemann is Musikdirektor at the Bayreuther Festspiele since 2015. Oops, Wagner, extreme right wing and anti-semitism, a nerve better not hit here at TC


As Barenboim has also conducted as Bayreuth quite a bit in his time I don't think it necessarily follows that everyone who does is extreme right wing and anti-semitic.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> Well, Yuja didn't wear _that_ outfit when I saw her in concert with Manfred Honeck and the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra several years ago at Heinz Hall in Pittsburgh. Which is probably why I remember what she played that day: the Tchaikovsky Concerto No. 1. I do know she used _both_ hands that day.
> 
> As for Lukas Vondracek, I don't know much about him nor have I seen him live in concert. But I watched the video. I figure that when somebody comes along and invents the facial recognition piano, he'll be able to play without using his hands -- just by grimacing in different ways at the keyboard.
> 
> ...


Mravinsky is a great conductor and I like also to collect with him.

Yuja has her own unique style. I like her legs and she is playing well the Ravel. What I don't like is the tablet she is using. I suppose she is doing this to have something to do also with her right hand.

Valentina (I red some posts about her above) she is talking too much. She is a very good pianist and a charming woman, as long as she is keeps her mouth shut. And, this is important to me, she has perfect piano fingers.

The cases Dutoit (and lately Placido Domingo and others…) is something beyond my knowledge and understanding. In Europe we have (had) seldom such incidents. When men and women are working together it is logical to have also some more personal moments. And if something inappropriate happens, we must complain immediately and not after 30 years.


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## The3Bs (Apr 1, 2020)

For me unfortunately it is Brendel... do not know why but developed an allergy to this well known and reputed pianist...

From time to time I give him new chances and apart from some Mozart Piano concertos I seem to be unmoved...


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## DaddyGeorge (Mar 16, 2020)

The3Bs said:


> For me unfortunately it is Brendel... do not know why but developed an allergy to this well known and reputed pianist...


Brendel is one of my favorite pianists and music personalities ever, but I understand your antipathy, you can't do anything about it...


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

I tend to separate an artist's politics and personal behaviour from their performance. It can be hard sometimes, and it depends on what you think is important. Personally speaking, I have absolutely no problem with Thielemann, for example, but struggle to enjoy the music making of Pete Townsend anymore and Dutoit, who I was a big fan of and without naming them, a number of predatory people in powerful positions.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

For me, admiring someone's art does not mean I condone their personal life, beliefs or opinions in any way. They are entirely separate things. I have noticed that great artists often are not great people. In many cases, they focus their energy, talent, wisdom, integrity, courage, and their strengths and good qualities in general almost entirely on their art. What is left over often in no small part consists of vanity, selfishness, pettiness, naivete, cruelty or worse. Famous examples are too numerous to list, but great insight into the psyche of a great and celebrated artist, and a classic work of literature to boot, can be found in the Autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

HenryPenfold said:


> I tend to separate an artist's politics and personal behaviour from their performance. It can be hard sometimes, and it depends on what you think is important. Personally speaking, I have absolutely no problem with Thielemann, for example, but struggle to enjoy the music making of Pete Townsend anymore and Dutoit, who I was a big fan of and without naming them, a number of predatory people in powerful positions.


What problem do you have with Pete Townsend?


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Open Book said:


> What problem do you have with Pete Townsend?


Allegations were made against Pete Towns*h*end of The Who regarding alleged child pornography. It made quite a splash in the media at the time, but at least according to his current Wikipedia entry, there doesn't seem to have been all that much to it, certainly when compared to the shenanigans of Gary Glitter, for example. That's another reason I can't worry too much about these things. They can be greatly amplified and distorted by the scandal and gossip mongers. Not that I condone the actions of Mr. Townshend, but I'll let the police and prosecutors (if necessary) take care of such things.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

fluteman said:


> For me, admiring someone's art does not mean I condone their personal life, beliefs or opinions in any way. They are entirely separate things. I have noticed that great artists often are not great people. In many cases, they focus their energy, talent, wisdom, integrity, courage, and their strengths and good qualities in general almost entirely on their art. What is left over often in no small part consists of vanity, selfishness, pettiness, naivete, cruelty or worse. Famous examples are too numerous to list, but great insight into the psyche of a great and celebrated artist, and a classic work of literature to boot, can be found in the Autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini.


There's even an opera! Not that the opera has much to do with the life of Benvenuto Cellini. But still.


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## The3Bs (Apr 1, 2020)

DaddyGeorge said:


> Brendel is one of my favorite pianists and music personalities ever, but I understand your antipathy, you can't do anything about it...


Unfortunately this is an emotional response. If it was only the head thinking and controlling the way we react to music then I would have to love Brendel... one of the so called Intellectuals of the keyboard.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Open Book said:


> What problem do you have with Pete Townsend?


I don't have a problem with Pete Townshend. I was a big Who fan from the early seventies and saw them live a couple of times including in 1974, and I have virtually all their albums. Pete made a massive error of judgement when he went on to a child porn site that required payment with a credit card to view the images. I felt hugely let down and was unconvinced by his explanation that he was undertaking research. I cannot hear a note of his music without being reminded of this, hence my comment about struggling to enjoy his music. My loss of course, but I can't change the way I feel.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

fluteman said:


> *Allegations* were made against Pete Towns*h*end of The Who regarding alleged child pornography. It made quite a splash in the media at the time, but at least according to his current Wikipedia entry, there doesn't seem to have been all that much to it, certainly when compared to the shenanigans of Gary Glitter, for example. That's another reason I can't worry too much about these things. They can be greatly amplified and distorted by the scandal and gossip mongers. Not that I condone the actions of Mr. Townshend, but I'll let the police and prosecutors (if necessary) take care of such things.


I wrote _Townshend_ first and my spellcheck changed to _Townsend - _I should have more self-belief! But thanks for pointing the error out.

It was a lot more than _alleged_. Viewing on-line child pornography is a strict liability offence in the UK. and as such Townshend was arrested and cautioned by the police and placed on the child protection register for five years. Had he actually downloaded the images he paid to view onto his hard-drive, he would have received a custodial sentence.

I also saw Gary Glitter live on the University circuit around 1979. An absolutely fabulous show. But I can't bear to even read his name these days, let alone listen to his music.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> Lukas Vondracek sounds good to me. I do have a problem with Daniel Barienboim's face, and with Alfred Brendel's raised eyebrows. That female, Uchida, does the eyebrow-raising thing as well.


I don't understand taking exception to someone's appearance, which mostly can't be helped.

If you don't like the way a musician looks, simply close your eyes.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

HenryPenfold said:


> I wrote _Townshend_ first and my spellcheck changed to _Townsend - _I should have more self-belief! But thanks for pointing the error out.
> 
> It was a lot more than _alleged_. Viewing on-line child pornography is a strict liability offence in the UK. and as such Townshend was arrested and cautioned by the police and placed on the child protection register for five years. Had he actually downloaded the images he paid to view onto his hard-drive, he would have received a custodial sentence.
> 
> I also saw Gary Glitter live on the University circuit around 1979. An absolutely fabulous show. But I can't bear to even read his name these days, let alone listen to his music.


All that's fine, but, and I say this with the utmost respect for your feelings on this, the point of my post was not to excuse or defend the way Pete Townshend conducts his personal life. That others, other rock stars even, likely have done vastly worse things does not excuse any bad conduct on his part. But I'm not going to judge him without thoroughly investigating the facts myself (you can probably tell I'm a lawyer, or barrister as you blokes say), and I'm not going to bother to do that either. He isn't my friend or professional colleague. He has created some music I've listened to. That doesn't create a responsibility in me to render such a judgment. When I walk through the Tate Modern or the Louvre, I'm not going to worry about the personal history of each artist whose work I see. You're free to feel differently, but I see no such moral obligation on my part.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

fluteman said:


> All that's fine, but, and I say this with the utmost respect for your feelings on this, the point of my post was not to excuse or defend the way Pete Townshend conducts his personal life. That others, other rock stars even, likely have done vastly worse things does not excuse any bad conduct on his part. But I'm not going to judge him without thoroughly investigating the facts myself (you can probably tell I'm a lawyer, or barrister as you blokes say), and I'm not going to bother to do that either. He isn't my friend or professional colleague. He has created some music I've listened to. That doesn't create a responsibility in me to render such a judgment. When I walk through the Tate Modern or the Louvre, I'm not going to worry about the personal history of each artist whose work I see. You're free to feel differently, but I see no such moral obligation on my part.


I think we may be talking at cross-purposes here. I was just pointing out that your summary that there were allegations, a splash in the press and 'there doesn't seem to have been all that much to it', is very much at variance with the actual facts of the matter.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

HenryPenfold said:


> I think we may be talking at cross-purposes here. I was just pointing out that your summary that there were allegations, a splash in the press and 'there doesn't seem to have been all that much to it', is very much at variance with the actual facts of the matter.


Hmm. I do take exception to that. For example, the Wikipedia entry states, "An article by investigative reporter Duncan Campbell that was published in PC Pro magazine revealed that police had no evidence that the website accessed by Townshend involved children and nothing incriminating was found on his personal computer [likely because he looked at something on the site but didn't download it]." Moreover, both your summary, describing his offense, actually called a "caution" according to both Wikipedia and you, as one of "strict liability", i.e., not requiring criminal or wrongful intent, likely places his act of looking at a computer image as far less significant than the long history of sex with underage girls, most likely prostitutes in most cases, and resulting criminal convictions in Glitter's case.

Respectfully, judging from your comment I very much doubt you have all of the relevant "actual facts" here, especially if your sources are the news and entertainment media. Nor do I, obviously, which is why I don't rush to judgment (or judgement, as you would spell it). In fact, as I've already said, I make no judgment at all. I have no relationship with Mr. Townshend other than listening to his music, so I choose not to judge him as a person.

You, on the other hand, are welcome to think ill of Mr. Townshend, but please do not accuse me of stating falsehoods. That is offensive and untrue.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

fluteman said:


> Hmm. I do take exception to that. For example, the Wikipedia entry states, "An article by investigative reporter Duncan Campbell that was published in PC Pro magazine revealed that police had no evidence that the website accessed by Townshend involved children and nothing incriminating was found on his personal computer [likely because he looked at something on the site but didn't download it]." Moreover, both your summary, describing his offense, actually called a "caution" according to both Wikipedia and you, as one of "strict liability", i.e., not requiring criminal or wrongful intent, likely places his act of looking at a computer image as far less significant than the long history of sex with underage girls, most likely prostitutes in most cases, and resulting criminal convictions in Glitter's case.
> 
> Respectfully, judging from your comment I very much doubt you have all of the relevant "actual facts" here, especially if your sources are the news and entertainment media. Nor do I, obviously, which is why I don't rush to judgment (or judgement, as you would spell it). In fact, as I've already said, I make no judgment at all. I have no relationship with Mr. Townshend other than listening to his music, so I choose not to judge him as a person.
> 
> You, on the other hand, are welcome to think ill of Mr. Townshend, but please do not accuse me of stating falsehoods. That is offensive and untrue.


We really are on a different wavelength, aren't we? I didn't accuse you of stating falsehoods, I only stated that your are plainly wrong in your representation of the facts of the case. Pete pretty much put his hands up to the offence, was arrested, charged, cautioned and placed on the sex offenders register for 5 years. He doesn't dispute this, nor need you!

Wikipedia is a most excellent resource and I use it almost daily. But outside of recreational use, it does rather have its limits........


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

HenryPenfold said:


> Wikipedia is a most excellent resource and I use it almost daily. But outside of recreational use, it does rather have its limits........


I could not agree with that more. A quick look at Wikipedia or a Google search is seldom enough to make one an expert on any subject, and it certainly isn't here. There, at least, we are on the same wavelength.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

Being a man of the 19th Century, Anton's predilections were were not seen as disqualifying at the Vienna Conservatory or anywhere else in Europe. A recent compilation of Bruckner's greatest works by band leader Ian Anderson:


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

I have a completely unwarranted bias against conductor Joseph Keilberth because of my parents' shrill, ear lacerating Telefunken L.P. of the Brahms third symphony I listened to as a kid. The problem was the recording-- not the conducting; but when I see his name it triggers the memory of that horrible sounding record. Probably not coincidentally the third is also my least favorite Brahms symphony.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

chu42 said:


> I like to separate the artist from the art. Otherwise I would never listen to composers such as Wagner, Gesualdo, Lully, and others who seem to be deeply unlikable personalities.


I just listen to the pre-murder Gesualdo.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Open Book said:


> I don't understand taking exception to someone's appearance, which mostly can't be helped. If you don't like the way a musician looks, simply close your eyes.


A person's appearance is greatly influenced by their attitude and affectations, not just their physical looks. I can't help it; especially that "dandy" look of his. I'd like to slap the s##t out of him!


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Simon Rattle's my musical _bête noire_. I've never been able to reconcile myself to his constant insistence on "doing something with" music which needs no kind of assistance from him or anyone else, but simply loyalty to the score and a committed performance thereof. The one and (so far) only thing he's done which I do like is his set of the Beethoven concertos with Brendel providing a vital counterweight at the piano.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

> I find that sort of attitude in pianists like Lang Lang.
> This is often called "Concerto for Left Hand and Right Leg", if you watch it, you'll know why:


this is wonderful remark indeed!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> I find that sort of attitude in pianists like Lang Lang.
> This is often called "Concerto for Left Hand and Right Leg", if you watch it, you'll know why:


This could easily be outdone, by creating a "Concerto for Left Hand, Right Leg, and Sideboob."


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

No, I don't have personal problems with performers — until they start (IMO obviously) butchering music I like. I can't stand Gould, Argerich, and Lang Lang.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> No, I don't have personal problems with performers - until they start (IMO obviously) butchering music I like. I can't stand Gould, Argerich, and Lang Lang.


Who would you rather slap the s##t out of: Glenn Gould or Lang Lang?


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Who would you rather slap the s##t out of: Glenn Gould or Lang Lang?


Dominic Cummings.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> I find that sort of attitude in pianists like Lang Lang.
> This is often called "Concerto for Left Hand and Right Leg", if you watch it, you'll know why:


I think it's time for some completely nude performers. Bettina would like that.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

millionrainbows said:


> Who would you rather slap the s##t out of: Glenn Gould or Lang Lang?


Lang Lang is just a pure showman, but (and I know this about to ruffle some feathers) - whenever I hear Gould drain all the life out of Bach with his mindless, mechanical, robotic, bone-dry, monochrome plunking away at the keys I always get the urge to pop him a good one on the schnozz. His vocalizations are actually the most _interesting_ part of his recordings for me! Alright, alright, I like the '81 Goldbergs and that's it. I dislike his Mozart for the same reasons but everything else I've heard from him I'd consider nothing less than essential listening IMO.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

mikeh375 said:


> Dominic Cummings.


Not Gilbert Gottfried?


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Not Gilbert Gottfried?


I had to google him...he looks funny. Is He?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Lang Lang is just a pure showman, but (and I know this about to ruffle some feathers) - whenever I hear Gould drain all the life out of Bach with his mindless, mechanical, robotic, bone-dry, monochrome plunking away at the keys I always get the urge to pop him a good one on the schnozz. His vocalizations are actually the most _interesting_ part of his recordings for me! Alright, alright, I like the '81 Goldbergs and that's it. I dislike his Mozart for the same reasons but everything else I've heard from him I'd consider nothing less than essential listening IMO.


Heh, heh, that's right, my little pretties: get vicious, and rip them to shreds!

Doberman attacking black labrador, close-up


Similar images




Save


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

here's a quote from Glen Gould ......

" In my opinion, the only really successful way of learning a work, regardless of its period, is to do so quite away from the instrument—in other words, to study it in purely analytical terms first."


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Who would you rather slap the s##t out of: Glenn Gould or Lang Lang?


I appreciate the offer, but please untie the live one and rebury the Canadian.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Who would you rather slap the s##t out of: Glenn Gould or Lang Lang?


Both have a lot of theater in their presentations. But to me, Gould is (was) far more skilled as an actor, writer, satirist, humorist, and all around showman. There may be a cultural disconnect preventing me from appreciating Lang Lang's act. But acts they are in both cases. As any performing art inevitably has an element of theater in it, I don't resent the antics of either.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

mikeh375 said:


> here's a quote from Glen Gould ......
> 
> " In my opinion, the only really successful way of learning a work, regardless of its period, is to do so quite away from the instrument-in other words, to study it in purely analytical terms first."


Well, I wish the homunculus had spent more time analyzing the music and less time playing it.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

To me, the world and this forum would be a better place if Herbert had become a plastic surgeon and if Richard W. had only used scat vocals instead of Harry P(l)otter plots.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

> NLAdriaan To me, the world and this forum would be a better place if Herbert had become a plastic surgeon and if Richard W. had only used scat vocals instead of Harry P(l)otter plots.


Just ignore that threads, it's a simple as that.


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## Seychellois (May 3, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> It _is_ funny how watching a musician can influence what we hear. I've noted it a lot the other way - _liking _performers after watching them - and have been convinced that what I was hearing was playing/singing that I greatly liked ... only to later hear the same performance without vision and finding it rather ordinary!


Very good point. I wrote elsewhere how I had been bowled over by Prokofiev's Toccata played by Yuja Wang. I had never heard it before. To me she is an attractive person with awesome skills. But "attractive person" really has nothing to do with great music so I have been listening to her performance without the visuals and am still blown away.

I will say that the recording of her performance was very very good compared to many others which can sound somehow indistinct, like looking through 10 feet of water.

The other thing I noted was the interpretation. I was very surprised at the substantial variations between Horowitz, Argerich and Wang among others.

I may be crucified by the cognoscenti here, but I like Wang's best.


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

Seychellois said:


> I may be crucified by the cognoscenti here, but I like Wang's best.


She's a fine pianist. It's a shame she lets the leg show overshadow her musicianship.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

ribonucleic said:


> She's a fine pianist. It's a shame she lets the leg show overshadow her musicianship.


You can always shut your eyes!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> I think it's time for some completely nude performers. Bettina would like that.


Here you are


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> I think it's time for some completely nude performers. Bettina would like that.


Old news. Google "Charlotte Moorman".


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2020)

I am not bothered by "personality" or "character" issues with a performer or artist, generally. It only influences my purchases if I feel that a deeply problematic artist will personally profit from my purchase, so dead and buried artists are off the hook. There are relatively few instances. I won't pay money for anything by James Levine, who has a well documented history of sexual abuse of minors. The first violin of the Cleveland Quartet has a well documented history of sexual abuse of young female students in his master classes. Krystian Zimmerman has a history of spouting virulent anti-American views. That's irritating, but doesn't stop me from buying his records. He's entitled to his silly opinions, as long as he doesn't harm anyone.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

My listening is influenced solely by the quality (according to my taste) of the performance/music. I try as much as possible to ignore extra-musical information, whether it is biographical or media driven material. I don't care how a performer is dressed, but I am distracted by what I think is excessive movement, facial contortions, etc. But I just look away.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> My listening is influenced solely by the quality (according to my taste) of the performance/music. I try as much as possible to ignore extra-musical information, whether it is biographical or media driven material. I don't care how a performer is dressed, but* I am distracted by what I think is excessive movement, facial contortions, etc. But I just look away.*


That's the nice thing about pure audio recordings. Less distraction, just music.


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