# Jon Vickers Birthday



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Say what you will about his difficult persona, but his portrayal of Otello will never be forgotten, and a role rarely mentioned where he seemed to have inhabited the part was his interpretation of Canio. Even the soprano who sang with him said she was really frightened at one point because she thought he was actually going to end up killing her. 
No matter what role he undertook, he put his heart and soul into his performances.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

From his biography a most difficult if principled man. The great Tristan and Siegmund of his generation. In addition were the Italian roles. A really huge heldentenor voice too. Interesting that Solti in his autobiography tactfully says that Vickers was a singer he never got on with. I think that was an understatement. Yet Vickers could work with Karajan no problems. Obviously you had to know how to handle the man's temperament.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

He was possibly my favourite Siegmund (best heard on Kna's live 58 Ring IMO). However, it is his studio Otello with Rysanek and Gobbi that I treasure most.

There seem to be a lack of studio recordings, two Siegmunds, Tristan, Grimes, Radames and two Otellos. Were there others?

As for live recordings he was also Pollione to Caballe's Norma (which unfortunately suffers from blustery sound), the famous Dallas Medea and my favourite of his live recordings Kna's final Parsifal.

No studio Parsifal and it's a shame he ruled out Tannhauser. He had such sensitivity, musicianship and taste I wonder why he didn't record more of the Italian rep: Manrico, Calef or Andrea Chenier. There was a lot more to him than park and bark. He was certainly a great artist and sadly an underecorded one.

It's a shame his studio Tristan is marred by dull conducting, less than perfect sound and the squally Brunhilde of Dernesch.

N.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The Conte said:


> There seem to be a lack of studio recordings, two Siegmunds, Tristan, Grimes, Radames and two Otellos. Were there others?
> 
> .


I think Florestan and Canio, Winterriese (one of them was studio), the recording of Italian arias was studio.

And there are these student telecasts









https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7975139--jon-vickers-early-telecasts-1954-56



The Conte said:


> It's a shame his studio Tristan is marred by dull conducting, less than perfect sound and the squally Brunhilde of Dernesch.
> 
> N.


There used to be an exceptional Tristan live from New York with Karajan.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> There used to be an exceptional Tristan live from New York with Karajan.


I think that it was with Leinsdorf. I don't believe that HvK ever conducted Tristan in NYC.

Vickers also recorded Aeneas in Berlioz' Les Troyens commercially, as well as Samson (both Handel and Saint-Saens).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> It's a shame his studio Tristan is marred by dull conducting, less than perfect sound and the *squally Brunhilde of Dernesch*.
> 
> N.


Not being pedantic (he lied :lol but Dernesch was, of course, singing Isolde on that occasion! Funny but I don't find her squally at all. She wasn't at her best being ill for the recording but I certainly love the humanity she brings to the part. Nor do I find the conducting dull. But it's amazing how people react differently to this set. A live performance is available on Eterna with the same cast - don't know whether anyone has heard it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> I think that it was with Leinsdorf. *I don't believe that HvK ever conducted Tristan in NYC.*
> 
> Vickers also recorded Aeneas in Berlioz' Les Troyens commercially, as well as Samson (both Handel and Saint-Saens).


You are correct. I believe it was only Walkure. A full Ring was intended but labour relations got in the way and the rest of Karajan's Ring production happened without Karajan years later. He never conducted tristan at the Met. As far as recordings are concerned only two with Vickers are listed here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_und_Isolde_discography


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DavidA said:


> You are correct. I believe it was only Walkure. A full Ring was intended but labour relations got in the way and the rest of Karajan's Ring production happened without Karajan years later. He never conducted tristan at the Met. As far as recordings are concerned only two with Vickers are listed here:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_und_Isolde_discography


Ah yes, that's right, a walkure.

I can't stand Leinsdorf so I never explored any recordings with him


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

I know that many dislike his Das Lied with Norman and Davis, but I find it fascinating. His tone is so unique, yet even with such a distinctive voice he could blend effectively when a score required it (as in the Monteux B9). Just an amazing singer.

Of the 5 Vickers/Siegmunds I have I am most fond of the Leinsdorf studio set.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

The Conte said:


> He was possibly my favourite Siegmund (best heard on Kna's live 58 Ring IMO). However, it is his studio Otello with Rysanek and Gobbi that I treasure most.
> 
> There seem to be a lack of studio recordings, two Siegmunds, Tristan, Grimes, Radames and two Otellos. Were there others?
> 
> ...


Another studio set is _Carmen_ with Fruhbeck de Burgos on EMI


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Rangstrom said:


> Of the 5 Vickers/Siegmunds I have I am most fond of the Leinsdorf studio set.


I think from memory, I may be completely wrong about this, two things put me off that Walkure. One was the vulgar way Leinsdorf conducts the opening overture. And the second was the Wotan.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Did anyone see him in music which never made it to commercial recordings -- I believe there was some verdi (Simone Boccanegra maybe) at Covent Garden. And of course L'incoronazione di Poppea in Paris, which has a poor video release. 

How come he could sing Nerone and refuse to sing Tanhauser?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Did anyone see him in music which never made it to commercial recordings -- I believe there was some verdi (Simone Boccanegra maybe) at Covent Garden. And of course L'incoronazione di Poppea in Paris, which has a poor video release.
> 
> How come he could sing Nerone and *refuse to sing Tanhauser?*


He pulled out of Tannhauser on the grounds that it was blasphemous.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Yes but why is the Wagner blasphemous and the Monteverdi mot? 

He also sang Herod, which sounds pretty blasphemous to me, though I know very little about religion. I used to have a recording of the Salome, it was dreadful!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Yes but why is the Wagner blasphemous and the Monteverdi mot?
> 
> He also sang Herod, which sounds pretty blasphemous to me, though I know very little about religion. I used to have a recording of the Salome, it was dreadful!


Somewhat of a mystery why he took that line.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Can anyone confirm if its true or a lie, that when Jon Vickers sang Parsifal at Baytreuth with Knappertsbusch, he insisted on taking the living Kundry up into the shrine at the end of Act III, as a feminist gesture? (Redemption is for everyone, not just the lads.)


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Has anyone heard his _Winterreise_? When I worked for the Music Discount Centre, I remember the head of mail order telling me it was both the greatest and worst performance of the cycle he had ever heard.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Has anyone heard his _Winterreise_? When I worked for the Music Discount Centre, I remember the head of mail order telling me it was both the greatest and worst performance of the cycle he had ever heard.


There are two. The studio one is well worth hearing, it's with Geoffrey Parsons. I enjoyed the live one much less. This is the one to get









Clearly the voice of an opera singer trying to hold back a bit!


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> There are two. The studio one is well worth hearing, it's with Geoffrey Parsons. I enjoyed the live one much less. This is the one to get
> 
> View attachment 126033


I agree. I wouldn't want to have this is my only recording of the work, but it's certainly unique.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

The Conte said:


> No studio Parsifal


True, but the 1964 Bayreuth performance is in pretty good sound (although monaural), and the Met issued a 1985 broadcast performance in excellent sound, with Rysanek and Moll, Levine conducting:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> There are two. The studio one is well worth hearing, it's with Geoffrey Parsons. I enjoyed the live one much less. This is the one to get
> 
> View attachment 126033
> 
> ...


Tristan meets Franz Schubert! It is overdone but most interesting. You won't fall asleep! The nearest recent equivalent would be Kaufmann.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

One of the great performances by Vickers opposite the haunting Sieglinde of Janowitz and magnetic Brunnhilde of Crespin. Then there is the BPO roaring through the storms and with almost supernatural beauty in the death announcement scene


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Truth be told, he couldn't handle it. It didn't mesh with his fach.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> View attachment 126039
> 
> 
> One of the great performances by Vickers opposite the haunting Sieglinde of Janowitz and magnetic Brunnhilde of Crespin. Then there is the BPO roaring through the storms and with almost supernatural beauty in the death announcement scene


This must be the most deliriously over-the-top description of an unevenly cast, basically very good but not earth-shaking recording I've ever read. "Great," "haunting," "magnetic," roaring," "supernatural"... Sheesh!

A slight attempt at objectivity and balance may be in order. Vickers is by far the best thing here; he is indeed superb as Siegmund, IMO the best since Melchior. Josephine Veasey is a solid but not exceptional Fricka; she's no Christa Ludwig, and definitely no Margarete Klose, who really shows how to put a god in his place in the celebrated 1930s act two with Marta Fuchs and Hans Hotter. Thomas Stewart, of course, isn't Hotter, or a heroic bass-baritone of any sort, but with the help of the recording studio he's able to give a well-sung, well-conceived portrayal of Wotan. As Brunnhilde, Regine Crespin is warm and sympathetic; whether her suavely urbane timbre evokes the mythical world of thunderclouds and mountain heights for you, or whether it matters, will be an individual matter. Her high notes don't exactly ring out. Finally, the suitability of the cut-glass, virginally pure lyric soprano of Gundula Janowitz is certainly questionable; again, it's at least loud enough for the microphone, but I find it basically inexpressive, and her portrayal unimaginative and not at all "mesmerizing." Sieglinde belongs to the heroic race of the Volsungs; she is Wotan's daughter and Siegmund's sister. She's a victim of brutality, but surely no pipsqueak. Vickers sounds as if he could eat her alive. That leaves Karajan, whose approach to Wagner I find a bit calculated and mannered. If orchestral suavity is important to your view of the _Ring,_ he does offer that.


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## Byron (Mar 11, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> A slight attempt at objectivity and balance may be in order. Vickers is by far the best thing here


The same thing goes for Karajan's studio Tristan as far as I'm concerned; in fact I find that recording rather rich and overripe, and Vickers' performance is the only reason I actually keep it on the shelf.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Why talk about ‘objectivity and balance’ when assessing recordings? Do we mean seeing things our way?. The fact is we all have our preferences about the way we like things done. We can be objective about the notes played and whatever but how the music is interpreted is a matter of personal taste within limits. I know there are people who do not care for Vickers’ Siegmund or his Tristan and positively faint at his Wintereisse. We take for granted when a commercial company puts out a recording that the notes are there in order - but much of the rest is subjective assessment.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> By 'objectivity and balance' one presumably means 'agreeing with me'?


More like "disagreeing with you."


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Not being pedantic (he lied :lol but Dernesch was, of course, singing Isolde on that occasion! Funny but I don't find her squally at all. She wasn't at her best being ill for the recording but I certainly love the humanity she brings to the part. Nor do I find the conducting dull. But it's amazing how people react differently to this set. A live performance is available on Eterna with the same cast - don't know whether anyone has heard it.


Thanks for the correction, but she is all over the place she might as well have been singing Brunhilde! :lol:

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Thanks for the correction, but she is all over the place she might as well have been singing Brunhilde! :lol:
> 
> N.


Dernesch has a lachrymose - or pained, or crying - quality in her tone that others might describe as "vulnerable," if they notice it. It gives all her portrayals a certain sad tone which generally annoys me. I suppose this is what DavidA means by the "humanity" of her Isolde. Isolde, however, is the proud daughter of a queen and a healer, a woman who calls on the sea to sink ships and who would administer a death potion to her lover and herself rather than submit to abuse by men and a loveless life. She has plenty to complain about, but she isn't the lachrymose type. Add to that the squeal - rather than the peal - of her notes above the staff, and she's no match for Vickers.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Thanks for the correction, but she is all over the place she might as well have been singing Brunhilde! :lol:
> 
> N.


Sorry but you are obviously listening to a different recording to mine! As one reviewer admitted: ' Dernesch is encouraged by Karajan to sing many beautiful legato phrases and is often tender in her phrasing'.

And another review on a Wagnerian website:
'Helga Dernesch sings a glorious Isolde, equally at home with the revenging princess of Act I as with the ecstatic lover of Acts II and III. As I mentioned in my Karajan-ring reviews, she possesses much of the cleaving- power that Birgit Nilsson also has, which makes Ms. Dernesch a feast to listen to.'

She is certainly not all over the place according to these guys (or me). Thine ears deceive thee! Check for wax? :lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

This might be of interest

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/Sept01/Wagner_Tristan_DVD.htm


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Dernesch has a lachrymose - or pained, or crying - quality in her tone that others might describe as "vulnerable," if they notice it. It gives all her portrayals a certain sad tone which generally annoys me. I suppose this is what DavidA means by the "humanity" of her Isolde. Isolde, however, is the proud daughter of a queen and a healer, a woman who calls on the sea to sink ships and who would administer a death potion to her lover and herself rather than submit to abuse by men and a loveless life. She has plenty to complain about, but she isn't the lachrymose type. Add to that the squeal - rather than the peal - of her notes above the staff, and she's no match for Vickers.


I don't often disagree with you, Woodduck, but I hear Dernesch quite differently. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that she is part of a couple of my most memorable formative operatic experiences. She was, I think, the first opera singer of international renown that I heard live, first in *Fidelio* and then as the Marschallin, both productions with Scottish Opera. I shall never forget the effect of those first notes in the Canon quartet in *Fidelio* as her voice burst forth like a ray of sunshine. She had a radiant quality which set her apart from all the other singers on stage. Her Marschallin is, for me, still unequalled, and I've seen the opera live quite a few times.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Dernesch has a lachrymose - or pained, or crying - quality in her tone that others might describe as "vulnerable," if they notice it. It gives all her portrayals a certain sad tone which generally annoys me. I suppose this is what DavidA means by the "humanity" of her Isolde. Isolde, however, is the proud daughter of a queen and a healer, a woman who calls on the sea to sink ships and who would administer a death potion to her lover and herself rather than submit to abuse by men and a loveless life. She has plenty to complain about, but she isn't the lachrymose type. *Add to that the squeal - rather than the peal - of her notes above the staff, and she's no match for Vickers.*


That's a really interesting description of her voice and I can't say I recognise a lachrymose quality to her tone. However I agree 100% about her high notes and whilst I can forgive that if the musicality and dramatic intensity are there, those two things are not present in Dernesch's Isolde.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Sorry but you are obviously listening to a different recording to mine! As one reviewer admitted: ' Dernesch is encouraged by Karajan to sing many beautiful legato phrases and is often tender in her phrasing'.
> 
> And another review on a Wagnerian website:
> 'Helga Dernesch sings a glorious Isolde, equally at home with the revenging princess of Act I as with the ecstatic lover of Acts II and III. As I mentioned in my Karajan-ring reviews, she possesses much of the cleaving- power that Birgit Nilsson also has, which makes Ms. Dernesch a feast to listen to.'
> ...


_Touche!_ Ha!

Such is the joy of the internet, you can find someone who will back almost any opinion. Does the fact that there are plenty of people online who think the Earth is flat mean that it is? (Although I recognise here that we are talking about artistic opinions which are different from scientific facts.) Besides, how do I know that I can trust these critics you quote, what are their qualifications and credentials?

N.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Sorry but you are obviously listening to a different recording to mine! As one reviewer admitted: ' Dernesch is encouraged by Karajan to sing many beautiful legato phrases and is often tender in her phrasing'.


I believe that it's safe to say that Dernesch's Brunnhilde has received mixed reviews. :devil:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't often disagree with you, Woodduck, but I hear Dernesch quite differently. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that she is part of a couple of my most memorable formative operatic experiences. She was, I think, the first opera singer of international renown that I heard live, first in *Fidelio* and then as the Marschallin, both productions with Scottish Opera. I shall never forget the effect of those first notes in the Canon quartet in *Fidelio* as her voice burst forth like a ray of sunshine. She had a radiant quality which set her apart from all the other singers on stage. Her Marschallin is, for me, still unequalled, and I've seen the opera live quite a few times.


Without a doubt you know her work better than I do. I know her from only a few recordings, and my impression of her voice and singing are based on those. What I perceive as a sad or pained quality in her voice isn't, I suppose, an actual flaw I'd want to argue about, but her tight, squealy high notes are. There's also an oddly tentative, walking-on-eggs quality to her soft singing; you can hear it in the quiet moments, notably in the love duet on the Karajan _Tristan:_






I remember Conrad L. Osborne's review of this back in the '70s in which he remarked that she seemed at times to pick at the notes, and that he almost felt unsure at times that she had actually sung them. It's almost as if she's afraid to sing! The sum total of these qualities, I'm afraid, leaves me with an unsatisfying impression of the recording. I wish I could splice Vickers' Tristan onto the 1966 Bohm recording where he'd be part of a cast about whose vocal confidence there can be no question (meaning no disrespect to Windgassen's intelligent and intense portrayal).


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I remember Conrad L. Osborne's review of this back in the '70s in which he remarked that she seemed at times to pick at the notes, and that he almost felt unsure at times that she had actually sung them. It's almost as if she's afraid to sing!


This is *exactly* how I perceive her singing, particularly on that Tristan recording. However, I never saw her live which could have been a different experience. There's also the fact that the Marschallin is quite a different role to the big Wagner heroines.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> I believe that it's safe to say that Dernesch's Brunnhilde has received mixed reviews. :devil:


Far too recent to be any good! :tiphat:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> This is *exactly* how I perceive her singing, particularly on that Tristan recording. However, I never saw her live which could have been a different experience. There's also the fact that the Marschallin is quite a different role to the big Wagner heroines.
> 
> N.


Wel, yes, and I suppose she was never really a _Hochdramatische_, but I like her Isolde and Brünnhilde nevertheless, and, I don't remember that many cavils about them when the records were first released. She is a lovely Elisabeth on the Solti *Tannhäuser* and her Sieglinde in the Klemperer Act I of *Die Walküre* has been well received.

I also saw her as Leonore and she was quite superb, as she is on Karajan's recording of the opera. I actually prefer her to Ludwig on the Klemperer. She doesn't sound strained at all to me. Those who say they can hear the strain now are being wise after the event.

Incdentally I saw her once more after she had re-emerged as a mezzo, as Herodias in *Salome* at Covent Garden. Gwyneth Jones was the Salome. Both voices were absolutely enormous.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> _Touche!_ Ha!
> 
> Such is the joy of the internet, you can find someone who will back almost any opinion. Does the fact that there are plenty of people online who think the Earth is flat mean that it is? (Although I recognise here that we are talking about artistic opinions which are different from scientific facts.) Besides, how do I know that I can trust these critics you quote, what are their qualifications and credentials?
> 
> N.


I'm so glad you realise artistic opinion is different from scientific facts! I do actually give our friends in TC the credit for realising that even though some people seem to feel by the way they express themselves that their opinion and fact amount to the same thing! Of course you can't trust any critics I quote any more than you can 'trust' anyone else here, except to hope that person is giving an honest opinion. We are all giving our opinion and remember, no-one is more qualified than anyone else. People have actually stated before on TC that qualifications and credentials don't matter. And come on, don't tell me you haven't read two reviews by so-called 'distinguished' (like the heralded Conrad Osborne) critics of the same performance or recording and wondered whether it was the same performance they were reviewing! Were they both right? Don't you remember the Joyce Hatto scandal when recordings that were dissed originally were suddenly praised because the name 'Joyce Hatto' appeared on the label? And that by critics who were supposed to know their job and be 'qualified' - opinion is opinion! It's subjective not objective. I like Denersch and so does at least one other person here. Subjective opinion. Some people don't like Vickers - some think he was the greatest - also subjective opinion. Opinion my friend, opinion. Nothing to do with science or the flat earth! :tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> so-called 'distinguished' (like the heralded Conrad Osborne) critics


...who knows more about singing and opera than you ever will or could.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> This must be the most deliriously over-the-top description of an unevenly cast, basically very good but not earth-shaking recording I've ever read. "Great," "haunting," "magnetic," roaring," "supernatural"... Sheesh!
> 
> A slight attempt at objectivity and balance may be in order. Vickers is by far the best thing here; he is indeed superb as Siegmund, IMO the best since Melchior. Josephine Veasey is a solid but not exceptional Fricka; she's no Christa Ludwig, and definitely no Margarete Klose, who really shows how to put a god in his place in the celebrated 1930s act two with Marta Fuchs and Hans Hotter. Thomas Stewart, of course, isn't Hotter, or a heroic bass-baritone of any sort, but with the help of the recording studio he's able to give a well-sung, well-conceived portrayal of Wotan. As Brunnhilde, Regine Crespin is warm and sympathetic; whether her suavely urbane timbre evokes the mythical world of thunderclouds and mountain heights for you, or whether it matters, will be an individual matter. Her high notes don't exactly ring out. Finally, the suitability of the cut-glass, virginally pure lyric soprano of Gundula Janowitz is certainly questionable; again, it's at least loud enough for the microphone, but I find it basically inexpressive, and her portrayal unimaginative and not at all "mesmerizing." Sieglinde belongs to the heroic race of the Volsungs; she is Wotan's daughter and Siegmund's sister. She's a victim of brutality, but surely no pipsqueak. Vickers sounds as if he could eat her alive. That leaves Karajan, whose approach to Wagner I find a bit calculated and mannered. If orchestral suavity is important to your view of the _Ring,_ he does offer that.


I'm listening to act one from this Ring right now. Perhaps that's the best segment from this Ring as I think all three of the singers are superb and most of your reservations concern the other soloists. Whilst I agree with your description of Janowitz's Sieglinde and I miss that extra metal in the voice that sopranos such as Schwarzkopf, Brouwenstijn, Grummer, Studer or Varady have, I love Janowitz's vulnerable Sieglinde. The purity of her voice helps remind one that she too is the daughter of a god and a very different beast to Brunhilde. One of the beauties of Wagner's Ring is that the characters are so multifaceted both in their words and music that there are a number of ways that they can be interpreted. Janowitz wouldn't be my favourite Sieglinde for the reasons you mention, but it's still a performance that I treasure.

Neither it (nor Vickers superb Siegmund) would cause me to invest in the complete Karajan Ring so it's fortunate that act one is included in the DG Janowitz box set.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I'm listening to act one from this Ring right now. Perhaps that's the best segment from this Ring as I think all three of the singers are superb and most of your reservations concern the other soloists. Whilst I agree with your description of Janowitz's Sieglinde and I miss that extra metal in the voice that sopranos such as Schwarzkopf, Brouwenstijn, Grummer, Studer or Varady have, I love Janowitz's vulnerable Sieglinde. The purity of her voice helps remind one that she too is the daughter of a god and a very different beast to Brunhilde. One of the beauties of Wagner's Ring is that the characters are so multifaceted both in their words and music that there are a number of ways that they can be interpreted. Janowitz wouldn't be my favourite Sieglinde for the reasons you mention, but it's still a performance that I treasure.
> 
> Neither it (nor Vickers superb Siegmund) would cause me to invest in the complete Karajan Ring so it's fortunate that act one is included in the DG Janowitz box set.
> 
> N.


When I want to hear Vickers as Siegmund I listen to him and Gre Brouwenstijn, who makes a nicely full-bodied, warm, feminine, human sound, just right for Sieglinde and a good match for Vickers, in the Leinsdorf _Walkure._ I'm not a Janowitz fan in general; I find the voice basically chilly and inexpressive, a bit like that of Teresa Stich-Randall. For me the perfect role for her is the first flower maiden in _Parsifal,_ heard on the 1962 Kna recording from Bayreuth. I can also imagine her as a delightful forest bird in _Siegfried_; I'd have chosen her over Sutherland for the Solti _Ring._ Sorry, Gun dear!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> When I want to hear Vickers as Siegmund I listen to him and Gre Brouwenstijn, who makes a nicely full-bodied, warm, feminine, human sound, just right for Sieglinde and a good match for Vickers, in the Leinsdorf _Walkure._ I'm not a Janowitz fan in general; I find the voice basically chilly and inexpressive, a bit like that of Teresa Stich-Randall. For me the perfect role for her is the first flower maiden in _Parsifal,_ heard on the 1962 Kna recording from Bayreuth. I can also imagine her as a delightful forest bird in _Siegfried_; I'd have chosen her over Sutherland for the Solti _Ring._ Sorry, Gun dear!


To quote _Lakme_:

Shocking!

I on the other hand am a Janowitz fan. I don't know the Leinsdorf Walkuere so I must give it a listen. I have an old Leinsdorf Walkuere with Melchior (1940 Boston with a dream cast) and I think another of his with Flagstad. I like the dramatic impulse he brings to Wagner, but prefer the more contemplative approach of Furtwaengler and Kna (so I will probably still prefer the 58 Kna).

Brouwenstijn is a very good Brunhilde in the 55 Keilberth (but with Varnay whereas you get Nilsson in the Leinsdorf).

Isn't it wonderful that there are all those magnificent Ring recordings from the 50s and 60s with various mix and match conductors and casts? There's a winning combination for everyone.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> To quote _Lakme_:
> 
> Shocking!
> 
> ...


I think that is the point. I like Wagner lyrical which is probably why I am fond of the Karajan approach which to me beats the old traditional tub thumpers and Wagner canons. Leinsdorf to me was too driven but I know that is the approach some people enjoy. You pays your money........ Thankfully less than it used to be, CDs now being so much cheaper!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I think that is the point. I like Wagner lyrical which is probably why I am fond of the Karajan approach which to me beats the old traditional tub thumpers and Wagner canons. Leinsdorf to me was too driven but I know that is the approach some people enjoy. You pays your money........ Thankfully less than it used to be, CDs now being so much cheaper!


I like Leinsdorf's dramatic thrust (similar to Bohm, who I also like conducting the Ring and he too is accused of rushing). What I'm not keen on is the prosaic, routine conducting of Solti and Sawalisch (I wouldn't mind betting that their Rings are the ones that have the least changes of tempo than any of the others). Although I don't find the Leinsdorf drive puts me off, I do notice the difference if I listen to Furtwangler, Keilberth or Barenboim after him.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I like Leinsdorf's dramatic thrust (similar to Bohm, who I also like conducting the Ring and he too is accused of rushing). What I'm not keen on is the prosaic, routine conducting of Solti and Sawalisch (I wouldn't mind betting that their Rings are the ones that have the least changes of tempo than any of the others). Although I don't find the Leinsdorf drive puts me off, I do notice the difference if I listen to Furtwangler, Keilberth or Barenboim after him.
> 
> N.


Leinsdorf was variable. I like his recording of _Walkure;_ it isn't particularly imaginative - he never was, to my knowledge - but he gets the passion and doesn't slight the grandeur. There's nothing eccentric, self-conscious or overrefined, as I sometimes find Karajan's late work to be. On the other hand, I heard him conduct _Tristan_ at the Met and it was pretty prosaic.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> I like Leinsdorf's dramatic thrust (*similar to Bohm*, who I also like conducting the Ring and he too is accused of rushing). What I'm not keen on is the prosaic, routine conducting of Solti and Sawalisch (I wouldn't mind betting that their Rings are the ones that have the least changes of tempo than any of the others). Although I don't find the Leinsdorf drive puts me off, I do notice the difference if I listen to Furtwangler, Keilberth or Barenboim after him.
> 
> N.


A problem with the Bohmm Ring which I possess, is the recording which tends to give a generalised sound which gives the impression of blandness. Never like recordings from that theatre anyway. Might be great when you're there but not for recording.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't often disagree with you, Woodduck, but I hear Dernesch quite differently. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that she is part of a couple of my most memorable formative operatic experiences. She was, I think, the first opera singer of international renown that I heard live, first in *Fidelio* and then as the Marschallin, both productions with Scottish Opera. I shall never forget the effect of those first notes in the Canon quartet in *Fidelio* as her voice burst forth like a ray of sunshine. She had a radiant quality which set her apart from all the other singers on stage. Her Marschallin is, for me, still unequalled, and I've seen the opera live quite a few times.


I saw those productions as well. I've always had a soft spot for Helga.


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