# Four Last Songs, Richard Strauss



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

These four are actually the last compositions by the German composer Richard Strauss, thankfully I have them on CD and I was very toched by them despite not speaking German...which raises yet another question-it is normal to be attached to music in a language you don't speak?
I have Houston's Symphony Ochestra's preformance with Renee Fleming as soprano; do you have it and/or another one? What preformance do you like the best?


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## wkasimer

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> These four are actually the last compositions by the German composer Richard Strauss, thankfully I have them on CD and I was very toched by them despite not speaking German...which raises yet another question-it is normal to be attached to music in a language you don't speak?


It's very, very common and normal. Great vocal music is performed in a vast number of different languages - Latin, French, English, German, Italian, Swedish, Finnish, Danish, Russian, Spanish, Czech, just to name some of the more common ones. There aren't many people fluent or even knowledgable about all of them.



> I have Houston's Symphony Ochestra's preformance with Renee Fleming as soprano; do you have it and/or another one? What performance do you like the best?


This topic has come up pretty frequently on TC, eg:

Four Last Songs recommendations?

Like a lot of people here, I have dozens of recordings. Favorites are Lucia Popp, Sena Jurinac, Soile Isokoski, Lisa della Casa, and a few that I'm undoubtedly forgetting at the moment.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

wkasimer said:


> It's very, very common and normal. Great vocal music is performed in a vast number of different languages - Latin, French, English, German, Italian, Swedish, Finnish, Danish, Russian, Spanish, Czech, just to name some of the more common ones. There aren't many people fluent or even knowledgable about all of them.
> 
> This topic has come up pretty frequently on TC, eg:
> 
> Four Last Songs recommendations?
> 
> Like a lot of people here, I have dozens of recordings. Favorites are Lucia Popp, Sena Jurinac, Soile Isokoski, Lisa della Casa, and a few that I'm undoubtedly forgetting at the moment.


If I liked this (and I did), what other compositions would I like from Strauss? Or some similar composer?


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## Bulldog

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> If I liked this (and I did), what other compositions would I like from Strauss?


I'm partial to Metamorphoses, Alpine Symphony, Also Sprach, and the Oboe Concerto.


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## Barbebleu

All of the above and any of his orchestral songs, actually any of his lieder are worth investigating. One of my favourite composers. If you want to go down the opera rabbit hole try Ariadne auf Naxos or Der Rosenkavalier.


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## Manxfeeder

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> If I liked this (and I did), what other compositions would I like from Strauss? Or some similar composer?


If you like songs about parting this life, the last song in Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde is similar.


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## Josquin13

"These four are actually the last compositions by the German composer Richard Strauss..."

Actually, the 4 songs are almost the last compositions by Richard Strauss, as a 5th & final song was discovered in the 1980s, called "Malven" or "Mallows"--a type of flower.

Here is a NY times article on the song's discovery, and the fascinating story around it: https://www.nytimes.com/1984/09/15/arts/song-by-richard-strauss-discovered.html

& here is soprano Jessye Norman singing "Malven", accompanied by Geoffrey Parsons at the piano, as Strauss didn't orchestrate it--this was the world premiere recording: 




In addition to the Four Last Songs, another favorite Strauss song of mine is "Morgen", especially as sung by soprano Arleen Auger, with pianist Irwin Gage--who are, sadly, no longer with us:






I'm also partial to Dame Janet Baker's singing of "Morgen", with pianist Gerald Moore:





Strauss orchestrated "Morgan", too: 




I'd also recommend hearing his opera Der Rosenkavalier (& especially the final scene, or trio & finale):


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## StlukesguildOhio

I have at least a dozen or more recordings of the _Vier letzte Lieder_... among my favorite works of music from one of my favorite composers. There is one recording that I can't believe hasn't been mentioned:









Sublime!


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## philoctetes

You must hear the end of Daphne... the transformation scene...


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## StlukesguildOhio

I would also second Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde_. For me, these two works are among the pinnacles of Post-Romanticism... or even 20th century music as a whole. Here are several of the finest recordings of DLvdE:









































As with Strauss' _Four Last Songs_ there are many alternatives of real merit.


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## StlukesguildOhio

When you are ready to jumpt into the deep end, look to _Salome, Elektra & Der Rosenkavalier:_

























The above three recordings are unsurpassed... but again, there are alternatives of real merit.

Beyond Strauss might I suggest Szymanowski:









His violin concertos are also worth hearing... and I would add Erich Korngold's violin concerto as well...









Heifetz (who made the work famous) is essential... but I also love Mutter.

And don't forget Korngold's "Marietta's Lied" from _Die Totte Stadt_ (Dead City):


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## wkasimer

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I have at least a dozen or more recordings of the _Vier letzte Lieder_... among my favorite works of music from one of my favorite composers. There is one recording that I can't believe hasn't been mentioned:
> 
> View attachment 119905


There are two reasons I didn't mention it:

1) I figured that someone else would do so.
2) I can't stand it.


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## wkasimer

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> If I liked this (and I did), what other compositions would I like from Strauss? Or some similar composer?


Strauss' other songs are certainly worth hearing, particularly those available in orchestrated form. And another vote for Metamorphosen.

You might also like the following:

Schoenberg: Verklärte Nacht
Wagner: Siegfried Idyll
Grieg: Orchestral Songs


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## millionrainbows

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> If I liked this (and I did), what other compositions would I like from Strauss? Or some similar composer?


This, most definitely: The Kindertotenlieder sung by Janet Baker, right here:









One more: Handel Arias sung by Lorraine Hunt-Lieberrson.


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## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> There are two reasons I didn't mention it:
> 
> 1) I figured that someone else would do so.
> 2) I can't stand it.


Not a fan of Frau Schwarzkopf then!


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> Not a fan of Frau Schwarzkopf then!


That would be an understatement.


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## Ras

*Netrebko with Barenboim conducting his Berlin Orchestra is still my favorite:*


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## wkasimer

Ras said:


> *Netrebko with Barenboim conducting his Berlin Orchestra is still my favorite:*


You don't mind the unintelligible German?


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## Barbebleu

Ras said:


> *Netrebko with Barenboim conducting his Berlin Orchestra is still my favorite:*
> 
> View attachment 119996


Probably the one in my collection that I like the least! Ah well, it would be a dreadful old world if we all liked the same thing. :lol:


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## Tsaraslondon

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I would also second Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde_. For me, these two works are among the pinnacles of Post-Romanticism... or even 20th century music as a whole. Here are several of the finest recordings of DLvdE:
> 
> View attachment 119906
> 
> 
> View attachment 119907
> 
> 
> View attachment 119908
> 
> 
> View attachment 119909
> 
> 
> View attachment 119910
> 
> 
> As with Strauss' _Four Last Songs_ there are many alternatives of real merit.


I would never want to be without this recording of DLVDE










Probably my absolute favourite, followed closely by the Ferrier/Patzak/Walter.


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## Tsaraslondon

StlukesguildOhio said:


> When you are ready to jumpt into the deep end, look to _Salome, Elektra & Der Rosenkavalier:_
> 
> View attachment 119912
> 
> 
> View attachment 119913
> 
> 
> View attachment 119914
> 
> 
> The above three recordings are unsurpassed... but again, there are alternatives of real merit.
> 
> Beyond Strauss might I suggest Szymanowski:
> 
> View attachment 119915
> 
> 
> His violin concertos are also worth hearing... and I would add Erich Korngold's violin concerto as well...
> 
> View attachment 119916
> 
> 
> Heifetz (who made the work famous) is essential... but I also love Mutter.
> 
> And don't forget Korngold's "Marietta's Lied" from _Die Totte Stadt_ (Dead City):


I agree with you _almost_. I just can't take Nilsson's Salome.

I also love Mutter's version of the Korngold (though the Tchaikovsky leaves a lot to be desired).

There is an even better version of Marietta's Lied on youtube, which is well worth hearing if you haven't already.


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## Tsaraslondon

wkasimer said:


> There are two reasons I didn't mention it:
> 
> 1) I figured that someone else would do so.
> 2) I can't stand it.


Whereas it is my out and out favourite recording. I have a few others and have heard loads more but the Schwarzkopf/Szell performance is the one that remains in my mind's ear.


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## NLAdriaan

Just an excellent newer recording, among the granny's:








And for DLVDE, a refreshingly non-dramatic one:








I find this a very interesting third entry in the 'life-songcycles':








and finally, a captivating Strauss alternative for piano only:


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## wkasimer

Here's the BBC "Building a Library" podcast about the VLL:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/strauss-four-last-songs/id273489899?i=1000444497616

Burnside's choice is Mattila/Abbado, with runners-up Isokoski/Janowski and Norman/Masur. He dislikes Schwarzkopf almost as much as I do.


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## Tsaraslondon

wkasimer said:


> Here's the BBC "Building a Library" podcast about the VLL:
> 
> https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/strauss-four-last-songs/id273489899?i=1000444497616
> 
> Burnside's choice is Mattila/Abbado, with runners-up Isokoski/Janowski and Norman/Masur. He dislikes Schwarzkopf almost as much as I do.


No accounting for taste, I suppose. Mind you, I disagree with reviewers on Radio 3's Building a Library quite as often as I agree with them. I do quite like the format, though, because you can hear excerpts for yourself. Sometimes I find myself wanting to investigate performances that the reviewer dismisses quite early on.


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## howlingfantods

My favorite is an unreleased Margaret Price performance with Claudio Abbado with the Chicago SO from 1981.

https://www.mixcloud.com/Jungfer_Ma...er-letzte-lieder-margaret-price-chicago-1981/


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## perdido34

There's a video of the Four Last Songs on YouTube with Norman and Sawallisch--I like it better than her recording with Masur.


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## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> Here's the BBC "Building a Library" podcast about the VLL:
> 
> https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/strauss-four-last-songs/id273489899?i=1000444497616
> 
> Burnside's choice is Mattila/Abbado, with runners-up Isokoski/Janowski and Norman/Masur. He dislikes Schwarzkopf almost as much as I do.


Heard this review. No accounting for taste (or lack of it) by reviewers.


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## DavidA

My personal favourite. I know it did not find favour with the BBC reviewer but I have found the standard of reviewing on that programme in recent years to be pretty lousy anyway. Janowitz produces sounds that are just unmatched imo


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## Rogerx

Part one of four, Popp/ Solti.:angel:


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## brunumb

DavidA said:


> .....I have found the standard of reviewing on that programme in recent years to be pretty lousy anyway.


I'd be interested in hearing what objective criteria you applied in order to reach that conclusion.


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## Tsaraslondon

DavidA said:


> My personal favourite. I know it did not find favour with the BBC reviewer but I have found the standard of reviewing on that programme in recent years to be pretty lousy anyway. Janowitz produces sounds that are just unmatched imo
> 
> View attachment 123367


But that's my problem with it. I don't wish to labour the point because I like the Janowitz/Karajan version very much, but the songs do emerge rather as _vocalises_. They are not. They are Lieder and Janowitz's disembodied purity never really gets to grips with the deeper meaning of the texts.


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## DavidA

brunumb said:


> I'd be interested in hearing what objective criteria you applied in order to reach that conclusion.


Of course there is no objective criteria you can apply. The whole thing is subjective. I find I disagree with most of what they say and in any case they appear to neglect some highly regarded recordings.


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## DavidA

Tsaraslondon said:


> But that's my problem with it. I don't wish to labour the point because I like the Janowitz/Karajan version very much, but the songs do emerge rather as _vocalises_. They are not. They are Lieder and Janowitz's disembodied purity never really gets to grips with the deeper meaning of the texts.


Deeper meaning? Well they are not terribly deep in meaning anyway. Strauss was not a 'deep' person.


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## wkasimer

Tsaraslondon said:


> But that's my problem with it. I don't wish to labour the point because I like the Janowitz/Karajan version very much, but the songs do emerge rather as _vocalises_. They are not. They are Lieder and Janowitz's disembodied purity never really gets to grips with the deeper meaning of the texts.


I agree with you - I actually prefer HvK's later version with Tomowa-Sintow, although neither is among my top five or so.


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## philoctetes

Lucia Popp for me... the things I once liked about Liz now annoy me...

Aren't those *shallow* texts written by Hesse, not Strauss?


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## Tsaraslondon

philoctetes said:


> Lucia Popp for me... the things I once liked about Liz now annoy me...
> 
> Aren't those *shallow* texts written by Hesse, not Strauss?


Schwarzkpf/Szell is still my absolute favourite, but I like Popp/Tennstedt too and actually heard them perform them at the Royal Festival Hall in London.

Yes the texts are Hesse and Eichendorff.


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## Tsaraslondon

DavidA said:


> Deeper meaning? Well they are not terribly deep in meaning anyway. Strauss was not a 'deep' person.


I'm guessing Hesse and Eichendorff would beg to differ.


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Deeper meaning? Well they are not terribly deep in meaning anyway. Strauss was not a 'deep' person.


Since you spend much time on the forum denying that musical works possess the depth that others find in them, it isn't surprising that the blandly beautiful Janowitz is your first choice.

It sounds lovely, but this is after all a setting of poetry. With rare exceptions, everything Janowitz sings sounds like everything else she sings, regardless of what it's supposed to be about. I find her an ideally virginal flower maiden in _Parsifal._ My father, hearing her in the Brahms _Requiem_, remarked that she sounds like someone playing the musical handsaw:






The theremin (or ondes Martenot) might be an even better analogue:


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## brunumb

DavidA said:


> Of course there is no objective criteria you can apply. The whole thing is subjective. I find I disagree with most of what they say and in any case they appear to neglect some highly regarded recordings.


So, when you disagree with what they say it means that the standard of reviewing on the program is pretty lousy. Thank you for the clarification.


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## DavidA

brunumb said:


> So, when you disagree with what they say it means that the standard of reviewing on the program is pretty lousy. Thank you for the clarification.


Correction. I said in addition they tend to neglect highly regarded recordings. What other criteria would you suggest?


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## DavidA

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm guessing Hesse and Eichendorff would beg to differ.


Should that bother me? I wouldn't even know them if Strauss hadn't set them to music! :lol:


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## wkasimer

DavidA said:


> Correction. I said in addition they tend to neglect highly regarded recordings. What other criteria would you suggest?


They may be "highly regarded" by you, but that doesn't mean that the reviewer should regard them highly. These BBC podcasts are just one man's or woman's opinion, no more.


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## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> They may be "highly regarded" by you, but that doesn't mean that the reviewer should regard them highly. *These BBC podcasts are just one man's or woman's opinion, no more.*


Exactly! And not more valid than any other music lover's subjective opinion.


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## Tsaraslondon

DavidA said:


> Should that bother me? I wouldn't even know them if Strauss hadn't set them to music! :lol:


Maybe not, but I'm guessing Strauss chose them for a reason. Otherwise he wouldn't have bothered setting texts at all.


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## DavidA

Tsaraslondon said:


> Maybe not, but I'm guessing Strauss chose them for a reason. Otherwise he wouldn't have bothered setting texts at all.


Of course. He liked them. He also spoke German which I do not.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Woodduck said:


> Since you spend much time on the forum denying that musical works possess the depth that others find in them, it isn't surprising that the blandly beautiful Janowitz is your first choice.
> 
> It sounds lovely, but this is after all a setting of poetry. With rare exceptions, everything Janowitz sings sounds like everything else she sings, regardless of what it's supposed to be about.


Wow.

I have to say I agree about the Janowitz, which is a pity as I really like the Tod und Verklarung and the Metamorphosen that open the disc.

For years I have favored Schwarzkopf/Szell for its ethereal beauty, but on recent listening I have come to prefer her earlier 1953 version for its extra dedication and greater vocal confidence.

Other favorites include Della Casa/Bohm and Norman/Masur.


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## VitellioScarpia

My favorite one is the Mazur/Norman.


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## Bigbang

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Wow.
> 
> I have to say I agree about the Janowitz, which is a pity as I really like the Tod und Verklarung and the Metamorphosen that open the disc.
> 
> For years I have favored Schwarzkopf/Szell for its ethereal beauty, but on recent listening I have come to prefer her earlier 1953 version for its extra dedication and greater vocal confidence.
> 
> Other favorites include Della Casa/Bohm and Norman/Masur.


I tried to "get" Janowitz but I could not get other versions out of my mind. On it's own it is good but I like Szell/Schwarzkopf more, and Masur/Norman. Will have to listen to the 53 version.


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## Tsaraslondon

Bigbang said:


> I tried to "get" Janowitz but I could not get other versions out of my mind. On it's own it is good but I like Szell/Schwarzkopf more, and Masur/Norman. Will have to listen to the 53 version.


I have three versions with Schwarzkopf - with Ackermann (1953), Karajan (live 1956) and Szell (1966) but I like the Szell most of all, as did Schwarzkopf herself.



> Many people mantain the first one is better. It's different of course, The voice is much younger. I don't think the first one is better, although one hears in the second that it is a maturer sound, but then the poems are not poems for a young creature, the poems are that of a mature person. It is never a girlish sound, it must suggest maturity, if anything. To look back at all seasons of life, and not be a spring-like noise. No, I'm very satisfied with that of course, and the main thing is that George Szell was satisfied. And to satisfy him was really something. He knew so much about singing - he was a singer's conductor if anyone was - incredible


 ES talking to John Steane in _Elisabeth Schwarzkopf: A Career on Record_.

I agree with her. There is a greater depth and warmth in the Szell recording and the rich, autumnal sound adds to the experience. One of my desert island discs.

Incidentally, I've come to like Norman/Masur more than I did when it was first issued, but I still find it too slow. It just gets slower and slower and by the time we get to the last song it threatens to come to a grinding halt.


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## Barbebleu

As much as I like Jessye Norman I feel that her voice is just too big for the Letzte Lieder but I appreciate others might not find that. My favourite for the last forty odd years is still Schwarzkopf/Szell and although I have many versions that give me enormous pleasure it is still my go to version in times of stress. I have told my wife that September is to be played at my funeral. Her response is always - “How will you know?”:lol:


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## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> As much as I like Jessye Norman I feel that her voice is just too big for the Letzte Lieder but I appreciate others might not find that. My favourite for the last forty odd years is still Schwarzkopf/Szell and although I have many versions that give me enormous pleasure it is still my go to version in times of stress. I have told my wife that September is to be played at my funeral. Her response is always - "How will you know?":lol:


I didn't expect to like the Norman as much as I did, as I never have been a great fan of hers. She wasn't a high soprano - perhaps really a mezzo - and sometimes tended to flat high notes. As it turns out I think her _4 Last Songs_ is one of her best recordings. Less detailed than Schwarzkopf (but who isn't?), she shows superb musicianship and fine sensitivity to the poetry, and her big voice soars splendidly, filling out and justifying Masur's slow tempi (as, for example, Rene Fleming didn't for Christoph Eschenbach, who is no Masur in any case. I haven't heard Fleming's second recording with Thielemann, but I gather it's better). Norman and Masur are for me a valid and grand alternative to the classic Schwarzkopf recordings.


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> I didn't expect to like the Norman as much as I did, as I never have been a great fan of hers. She wasn't a high soprano - perhaps really a mezzo - and sometimes tended to flat high notes. As it turns out I think her _4 Last Songs_ is one of her best recordings. Less detailed than Schwarzkopf (but who isn't?), she shows superb musicianship and fine sensitivity to the poetry, and her big voice soars splendidly, filling out and justifying Masur's slow tempi (as, for example, Rene Fleming didn't for Christoph Eschenbach, who is no Masur in any case. I haven't heard Fleming's second recording with Thielemann, but I gather it's better). Norman and Masur are for me a valid and grand alternative to the classic Schwarzkopf recordings.


Fair comment!xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Tsaraslondon

Woodduck said:


> I didn't expect to like the Norman as much as I did, as I never have been a great fan of hers. She wasn't a high soprano - perhaps really a mezzo - and sometimes tended to flat high notes. As it turns out I think her _4 Last Songs_ is one of her best recordings. Less detailed than Schwarzkopf (but who isn't?), she shows superb musicianship and fine sensitivity to the poetry, and her big voice soars splendidly, filling out and justifying Masur's slow tempi (as, for example, Rene Fleming didn't for Christoph Eschenbach, who is no Masur in any case. I haven't heard Fleming's second recording with Thielemann, but I gather it's better). Norman and Masur are for me a valid and grand alternative to the classic Schwarzkopf recordings.


I agree with you up to a point, but I feel that Masur's slow speeds rob the work of any sense of flow. I rather like Fleming's second recording with Thielemann by the way.


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## Allegro Con Brio

What's the consensus here on the latest recording by Lise Davidsen? I'm impressed by what I've heard, but I think it's a love-it-or-hate-it thing - she has a huge, Wagnerian voice and some may think she goes way OTT and robs the songs of their poetry by making them so operatic. But I think these songs can work just as well in the grand, opulent, declamatory fashion (ala Norman/Masur) as much as the more reserved, intimate utterances of the Schwarzkopf school.


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## Tsaraslondon

Allegro Con Brio said:


> What's the consensus here on the latest recording by Lise Davidsen? I'm impressed by what I've heard, but I think it's a love-it-or-hate-it thing - she has a huge, Wagnerian voice and some may think she goes way OTT and robs the songs of their poetry by making them so operatic. But I think these songs can work just as well in the grand, opulent, declamatory fashion (ala Norman/Masur) as much as the more reserved, intimate utterances of the Schwarzkopf school.


I've heard it and didn't like it at all. This is what I wrote on a different forum when I first heard it.



> So this is what passes for good Wagner and Strauss singing these days? When it comes to the _Vier letzte LIeder_ we might quibble about the various merits of Schwarzkopf, Janowitz and Popp, of Norman, Te Kanawa and Fleming, but one thing they all had in common was a basically beautiful timbre. I hear very little of beauty in the over-vibrant sound of the voice itself. The intonation is quite often suspect, and I deplore this habit of starting a note flat and vibrato-less than adding more and more vibrato to it as she swells the tone. Nothing very interesting interpretively either.
> 
> _Morgen_ was really not good at all. Thankfully, I only listened on Spotify. I doubt I'll be listening again.


I was not alone either. Others on the site had the same reactopn.


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## Bigbang

Tsaraslondon said:


> I agree with you up to a point, but I feel that Masur's slow speeds rob the work of any sense of flow. I rather like Fleming's second recording with Thielemann by the way.


I went on Freegal to look up some Strauss and saw Schwarzkopf linked with Fischer on RHI label. The list of lieder had Otto Ackermann as conductor on most but Fischer on the Four last songs. I am assuming this is an error but if anyone has any knowledge on this association, then pass it on. My question is whether she is is on record with Szell and Ackermann only.

Also what is the take on Jane Eaglen? I bought her cd FL Songs. Bought for 50cents, no biggie and so far have only listened to Im Abendrot mostly...at first did not care for but grew on my a little.


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## Tsaraslondon

Bigbang said:


> I went on Freegal to look up some Strauss and saw Schwarzkopf linked with Fischer on RHI label. The list of lieder had Otto Ackermann as conductor on most but Fischer on the Four last songs. I am assuming this is an error but if anyone has any knowledge on this association, then pass it on. My question is whether she is is on record with Szell and Ackermann only.
> 
> Also what is the take on Jane Eaglen? I bought her cd FL Songs. Bought for 50cents, no biggie and so far have only listened to Im Abendrot mostly...at first did not care for but grew on my a little.


If we're talking about Edwin Fischer, the pianist, Schwarzkopf recorded a recital of Schubert songs with him - a classic of the gramophone. I don't think she ever sang with the conductor Ivan Fischer, who is, in any case, quite a bit younger. Otto Ackermann was the conductor for her first recording of the _Vier letzte Lieder_.

I haven't heard Jane Eaglen's recording.


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## Bigbang

Yes, my mistake. It is Ackermann then with Schubert Lieder. Given the free download, I am going for it and then burn it.


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## VitellioScarpia

Woodduck said:


> I didn't expect to like the Norman as much as I did, as I never have been a great fan of hers. She wasn't a high soprano - perhaps really a mezzo - and sometimes tended to flat high notes. As it turns out I think her _4 Last Songs_ is one of her best recordings. Less detailed than Schwarzkopf (but who isn't?), she shows superb musicianship and fine sensitivity to the poetry, and her big voice soars splendidly, filling out and justifying Masur's slow tempi (as, for example, Rene Fleming didn't for Christoph Eschenbach, who is no Masur in any case. I haven't heard Fleming's second recording with Thielemann, but I gather it's better). Norman and Masur are for me a valid and grand alternative to the classic Schwarzkopf recordings.


Those soaring phrases really shine with an opulent voice _à la_ Norman or Fleming. Let's not forget that Strauss wanted Flagstad to sing the première who had a huge and warm voice. In that case, Norman's may come closer to the mark. I am not particularly bothered by the slow tempi that Mazur uses. It takes some getting used to it but I do not think that the music falls apart.


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## vincula

I'm partial to Lisa della Casa/Böhm/Decca her. I love it. It's a very distinct take on these great songs. Definitely the opposite of Schwarzkopf/Szell/EMI, which I got as well. 

Regards,

Vincula


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## Tsaraslondon

vincula said:


> I'm partial to Lisa della Casa/Böhm/Decca her. I love it. It's a very distinct take on these great songs. Definitely the opposite of Schwarzkopf/Szell/EMI, which I got as well.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


My problem with this version is the opposite problem I have with the Norman/Masur. I find Böhm's speeds too fast. I'm a bit like Goldilocks. Della Casa/Böhm is too fast, Norman/Masur too slow, but Schwarzkopf/Szell is just right .


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## wkasimer

Tsaraslondon said:


> My problem with this version is the opposite problem I have with the Norman/Masur. I find Böhm's speeds too fast. I'm a bit like Goldilocks. Della Casa/Böhm is too fast, Norman/Masur too slow, but Schwarzkopf/Szell is just right .


You're right - the tempi aren't the problem with Schwarzkopf/Szell...


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## realdealblues

I like these ones:






















Actor Jeremy Brett turned me onto the Norman recording during his Desert Island Discs years ago and it's still the one I reach for most, but I enjoy both of Karajan's recordings as well, however; I'm far from a connoisseur of the Last Four Songs...


----------



## Tsaraslondon

wkasimer said:


> You're right - the tempi aren't the problem with Schwarzkopf/Szell...


Exactly. There isn't a problem with the Schwarzkopf/Szell. It's perfect :devil:


----------



## VitellioScarpia

Tsaraslondon said:


> Exactly. There isn't a problem with the Schwarzkopf/Szell. It's perfect :devil:


Except for the Dame... :devil:


----------



## Tsaraslondon

VitellioScarpia said:


> Except for the Dame... :devil:


I had a feeling this would be something else we disagreed on :tiphat:


----------



## wkasimer

Tsaraslondon said:


> I had a feeling this would be something else we disagreed on :tiphat:


Not too many people are lukewarm on the subject of Madame Schwarzkopf...


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

wkasimer said:


> Not too many people are lukewarm on the subject of Madame Schwarzkopf...


I don't personally understand why she would be so polarizing. I've heard some people say she values beauty of voice over depth of interpretation, or is too "polished." I don't hear that though. I'd be curious to know the rationale behind the dislike.


----------



## VitellioScarpia

Tsaraslondon said:


> I had a feeling this would be something else we disagreed on :tiphat:


Well, let's say that Ms. Schwarzkopf is not my ideal as an artist but I am happy that she brings you much meaning. Yet, there's so much else that we agree upon. :angel:

P.S.: I am flattered that you anticipated this difference between us.


----------



## VitellioScarpia

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I don't personally understand why she would be so polarizing. I've heard some people say she values beauty of voice over depth of interpretation, or is too "polished." I don't hear that though. I'd be curious to know the rationale behind the dislike.


Using "polished" is a nice way of putting it... Do you really want to provoke a food fight here? :lol:


----------



## wkasimer

VitellioScarpia said:


> Using "polished" is a nice way of putting it... Do you really want to provoke a food fight here? :lol:


Don't look at me - I've said my piece about her several times, and no one needs to read it again.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

VitellioScarpia said:


> Using "polished" is a nice way of putting it... Do you really want to provoke a food fight here? :lol:


Oops, sorry...I forgot what happens when certain singers are brought up in the opera world. But I really am genuinely curious...I suppose I'll go see if there's any old threads I can read opinions on rather than bringing it up here.


----------



## VitellioScarpia

wkasimer said:


> Don't look at me - I've said my piece about her several times, and no one needs to read it again.


Can you point me to where have you said your piece. I have the feeling that I will enjoy the readings... 

P.S.: I know that you were setting me up with your taunt. So, don't try the _ingenue_ card with me.


----------



## VitellioScarpia

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Oops, sorry...I forgot what happens when certain singers are brought up in the opera world. But I really am genuinely curious...I suppose I'll go see if there's any old threads I can read opinions on rather than bringing it up here.


In my case it is not just because it is opera, I have passionate feelings for instrumentalists and conductors also. I am very versatile in my likes and dislikes. :lol:


----------



## wkasimer

VitellioScarpia said:


> Can you point me to where have you said your piece. I have the feeling that I will enjoy the readings...


I may have only made snarky comments on TC; I probably posted more detailed vitriol on other sites that are now defunct.

To start with, I find the quality of her voice grating. The tight, excessively controlled vocal production that never seems free of her throat is, for me, like nails on a chalkboard. Added to this, every bit of her singing sounds planned to the most minute degree. For me, the art of great singing (and great music making in general), particularly in the song repertoire, is "the art that conceals art" - performing in such a way that the music sounds like a spontaneous utterance even when it obviously isn't. And for me, that's where Schwarzkopf utterly fails. And it's certainly not from lack of trying - I believe that I've heard virtually every one of her commercial operatic recordings (which often have other singers I admire), and many of her recital recordings. I still keep both of her VLL recordings on the shelf to remind myself of why I dislike them as much as I do.



> P.S.: I know that you were setting me up with your taunt. So, don't try the _ingenue_ card with me.


Moi?


----------



## VitellioScarpia

wkasimer said:


> I may have only made snarky comments on TC; I probably posted more detailed vitriol on other sites that are now defunct.
> 
> To start with, I find the quality of her voice grating. The tight, excessively controlled vocal production that never seems free of her throat is, for me, like nails on a chalkboard. Added to this, every bit of her singing sounds planned to the most minute degree. For me, the art of great singing (and great music making in general), particularly in the song repertoire, is "the art that conceals art" - performing in such a way that the music sounds like a spontaneous utterance even when it obviously isn't. And for me, that's where Schwarzkopf utterly fails. And it's certainly not from lack of trying - I believe that I've heard virtually every one of her commercial operatic recordings (which often have other singers I admire), and many of her recital recordings. I still keep both of her VLL recordings on the shelf to remind myself of why I dislike them as much as I do.


Fortunately, I do not find the voice grating in my case but I agree that the tightness in the vocal production can grate. It is seldom discussed that she came to pay for her tight vocal control in 1966 during a run as Donna Elvira at the Met when her voice virtually collapsed. I concur with wkasimer on his observations about her art. I prefer _kunst_ divas -- after all I love Callas -- but she was unable to make it sound spontaneous. As wkasimer said, she was unable to demonstrate the "the art that conceals art".



wkasimer said:


> Moi?


----------



## Tsaraslondon

wkasimer said:


> I may have only made snarky comments on TC; I probably posted more detailed vitriol on other sites that are now defunct.
> 
> To start with, I find the quality of her voice grating. The tight, excessively controlled vocal production that never seems free of her throat is, for me, like nails on a chalkboard. Added to this, every bit of her singing sounds planned to the most minute degree. For me, the art of great singing (and great music making in general), particularly in the song repertoire, is "the art that conceals art" - performing in such a way that the music sounds like a spontaneous utterance even when it obviously isn't. And for me, that's where Schwarzkopf utterly fails. And it's certainly not from lack of trying - I believe that I've heard virtually every one of her commercial operatic recordings (which often have other singers I admire), and many of her recital recordings. I still keep both of her VLL recordings on the shelf to remind myself of why I dislike them as much as I do.
> 
> Moi?


There is nothing new in these complaints about Schwarzkopf and I've heard them many time before. I don't agree, obviously, and I do feel that, usually, the art does conceal art. However her art was admittedlty cerebral rather than instinctive, so I understand why some people don't get on with it.

The one statement I find odd is the opening one. I don't think I've ever come across anyone who has a problem with the basic quality of her intstrument, which is usually described as one of great beauty. We all hear voices differently of course.

:tiphat:


----------



## wkasimer

Tsaraslondon said:


> The one statement I find odd is the opening one. I don't think I've ever come across anyone who has a problem with the basic quality of her intstrument...


Well, now you have!


----------



## VitellioScarpia

wkasimer said:


> Well, now you have!


I second that. Although there are many recordings where her basic sound does not bother me, in others it does. For example: the squeezed sound she produces as Liù in the Callas Turandot is _not_ a thing of beauy in my book.


----------



## Neo Romanza

My go-to performance of _Vier letzte Lieder_ is Popp/Tennstedt on EMI. My second favorite would be Norman/Masur on Philips. I can't say I've heard too many other performances that have made my ears perk up like these.


----------



## VitellioScarpia

Tsaraslondon said:


> There is nothing new in these complaints about Schwarzkopf and I've heard them many time before.
> :tiphat:


Ouch! They are opinions irrespective if new or not.


----------



## Barbebleu

Tsaraslondon said:


> There is nothing new in these complaints about Schwarzkopf and I've heard them many time before. I don't agree, obviously, and I do feel that, usually, the art does conceal art. However her art was admittedlty cerebral rather than instinctive, so I understand why some people don't get on with it.
> 
> The one statement I find odd is the opening one. I don't think I've ever come across anyone who has a problem with the basic quality of her intstrument, which is usually described as one of great beauty. We all hear voices differently of course.
> 
> :tiphat:


Don't worry Tsaras. You have at least one La Schwarzkopf fan in agreement. There is just something in her voice that resonates with me. But then again, I love Bob Dylan!!


----------



## VitellioScarpia

Barbebleu said:


> La Schwarzkopf


Das Schwarzkopf. She was the antithesis of an _Italian_ singer in temperament, sensitivity and style... :devil:


----------



## Barbebleu

VitellioScarpia said:


> Das Schwarzkopf. She was the antithesis of an _Italian_ singer in temperament, sensitivity and style... :devil:


It's a good job we don't all hear the same thing! Her Italianate Mozart sounds pretty convincing to these aging ears. Btw, would it not be Die Schwarzkopf if we are going down the German straße?:devil:


----------



## VitellioScarpia

Barbebleu said:


> It's a good job we don't all hear the same thing! Her Italianate Mozart sounds pretty convincing to these aging ears. Btw, would it not be Die Schwarzkopf if we are going down the German straße?:devil:


Yes, _Die_... Her Mozart is very good, I have to confess. :angel:


----------



## Barbebleu

VitellioScarpia said:


> Yes, _Die_... Her Mozart is very good, I have to confess.


I will admit she doesn't always convince when she is singing in English.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Barbebleu said:


> I will admit she doesn't always convince when she is singing in English.


Yes, but how many foreign artists do? We can be so sniffy about foreigners singing in our language. It's probably just as well the French, Italians and Germans seem to be less so. At least you can _hear_ the words. Sutherland, for whom English was her mother tongue, could be singing in Urdu whatever language she sang in.

PS As it happens I find Schwarzkopf's singing of _Danny Boy_ peculiarly moving.


----------



## Barbebleu

Tsaraslondon said:


> PS As it happens I find Schwarzkopf's singing of _Danny Boy_ peculiarly moving.


I do too. I only said not always convincing. Doesn't mean I don't like it! Domingo was no station announcer when he sang in German!


----------



## VitellioScarpia

It goes both ways: Italian, German and French get bungled so many times and by big names (Domingo's German should be declared its own "dialect", Sutherland _ci-elo_)'s instead of _celo_'s, etc.). Cannot comment on Russian at all... But the worse is when the singer is indifferent to the meaning of the text or vaguely aware of it. It.Drives.Me.Crazy.Mad. (Do you really want me to tell you how I feel about it?)


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Barbebleu said:


> I do too. I only said not always convincing. Doesn't mean I don't like it! Domingo was no station announcer when he sang in German!


I see elsewhere that you are a fan of Korngold. Have you heard this?






Apologies to others for going off topic, but this really is ravishing singing. I've never heard it done better, though wksimer would probably disagree :devil:


----------



## Barbebleu

Tsaraslondon said:


> I see elsewhere that you are a fan of Korngold. Have you heard this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apologies to others for going off topic, but this really is ravishing singing. I've never heard it done better, though wksimer would probably disagree :devil:


I've heard this many times and I couldn't agree more. I think she absolutely nails it emotionally and technically.


----------



## wkasimer

Tsaraslondon said:


> Apologies to others for going off topic, but this really is ravishing singing. I've never heard it done better, though wksimer would probably disagree :devil:


I listened, and made it to the end (normally, I can only stand her for about 30 seconds). Yes, it's one of the best things that I've ever heard from her. And I never want to hear it again.


----------



## VitellioScarpia

wkasimer said:


> I listened, and made it to the end (normally, I can only stand her for about 30 seconds). Yes, it's one of the best things that I've ever heard from her. And I never want to hear it again.


I concur. The artifice is never concealed from me.


----------



## Barbebleu

It’s statements like the one above that start acrimonious disputes on this forum. The artifice is never concealed from me! Really? If it was intended to provoke then well played. It has succeeded admirably, but I shall not be provoked in this instance, for I have sure and certain knowledge that Frau Legge was an incomparable singer and nothing that anyone with the musical ear of Vincent van Gogh says can persuade me otherwise!:tiphat:


----------



## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> It's statements like the one above that start acrimonious disputes on this forum.


They only start acrimonious debates when people interpret such comments as criticisms of their taste. Lots of people love Schwarzkopf's recordings - I get that, and I don't expect my view to change that. Nor of course, should they expect my opinion to change because they happen to adore her recordings. When someone posts a link to a recording that they think will change my mind, I listen to it, as I did in this case - I actually have changed my opinion of certain singers over time.

My opinions are sometimes blunt, because I'm not fond of "rainbows and unicorns" forums. I prefer that people write what they think.


----------



## Barbebleu

Maybe it’s just me but I find statements like that arrogant, as if to say I have an insight into her abilities, or lack thereof, that you lesser mortals don’t have. “The artifice etc.“

Just say you don’t like the way she sings, interprets, whatever and be done with it. No need to dress it up with stuff like “the artifice”

Yes, I know it’s annoying me to a degree that it perhaps shouldn’t, but you see it on the forum all the time. People who think that they have a special insight that if you can’t see it you must be a musical buffoon. 

Rant over. Off to listen to something soothing now. Perhaps a late Bartok quartet!:lol:


----------



## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> Maybe it's just me but I find statements like that arrogant, as if to say I have an insight into her abilities, or lack thereof, that you lesser mortals don't have. "The artifice etc."


Sorry, but you're finding something that's not there.



> Just say you don't like the way she sings, interprets, whatever and be done with it. No need to dress it up with stuff like "the artifice"


I find such critical comments rather meaningless and unhelpful. If someone says that they don't like a particular singer or performance, I want to know why that is the case. I'm really having a hard time understanding what you found objectionable about what I wrote:

"To start with, I find the quality of her voice grating. The tight, excessively controlled vocal production that never seems free of her throat is, for me, like nails on a chalkboard. Added to this, every bit of her singing sounds planned to the most minute degree. For me, the art of great singing (and great music making in general), particularly in the song repertoire, is "the art that conceals art" - performing in such a way that the music sounds like a spontaneous utterance even when it obviously isn't. And for me, that's where Schwarzkopf utterly fails. And it's certainly not from lack of trying - I believe that I've heard virtually every one of her commercial operatic recordings (which often have other singers I admire), and many of her recital recordings. I still keep both of her VLL recordings on the shelf to remind myself of why I dislike them as much as I do."



> Yes, I know it's annoying me to a degree that it perhaps shouldn't, but you see it on the forum all the time. People who think that they have a special insight that if you can't see it you must be a musical buffoon.


Again, I think that in most cases, you may be finding something that's not really there. Many of us spend way to much time worrying about what other people think about our opinions and views. I'm sure that to many people, my distaste for Schwarzkopf makes me an unsophisticated dolt - and I really don't care.


----------



## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> and I really don't care.


Nor do I.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


----------



## VitellioScarpia

Barbebleu said:


> It's statements like the one above that start acrimonious disputes on this forum. The artifice is never concealed from me! Really? If it was intended to provoke then well played. It has succeeded admirably, but I shall not be provoked in this instance, for I have sure and certain knowledge that Frau Legge was an incomparable singer and nothing that anyone with the musical ear of Vincent van Gogh says can persuade me otherwise!:tiphat:





Barbebleu said:


> Maybe it's just me but I find statements like that arrogant, as if to say I have an insight into her abilities, or lack thereof, that you lesser mortals don't have. "The artifice etc."
> 
> Just say you don't like the way she sings, interprets, whatever and be done with it. No need to dress it up with stuff like "the artifice"
> 
> Yes, I know it's annoying me to a degree that it perhaps shouldn't, but you see it on the forum all the time. People who think that they have a special insight that if you can't see it you must be a musical buffoon.
> 
> Rant over. Off to listen to something soothing now. Perhaps a late Bartok quartet!:lol:


Two rants because I happen not to have a taste consistent with yours? One accusing me of arrogance and the cause of acrimonious disputes, and a second one restating that I believe that I have some "special insight". You need to take all this a bit less personally. An evaluation on your taste never even entered my thoughts, nor was intended to be anything more than my take on what I heard in the recording.

It is also dispiriting that other participants celebrate personal attacks because I happen not to like Mme. Schwarzkopf's recording of _Marietta's Lied_ to their dislike, I assume. I do not think that my integrity should be judged on the basis of my taste in music. I listened to the recording till the end before making my comment.

I am always respectful of other people's opinions in these forums. I was clearly mistaken to think that this is a forum where adults can exchange opinions openly and without being dressed down because one happens to think differently than the "norm". Time to reconsider.


----------



## annaw

VitellioScarpia said:


> Two rants because I happen not to have a taste consistent with yours? One accusing me of arrogance and the cause of acrimonious disputes, and a second one restating that I believe that I have some "special insight". You need to take all this a bit less personally. An evaluation on your taste never even entered my thoughts, nor was intended to be anything more than my take on what I heard in the recording.
> 
> It is also dispiriting that other participants celebrate personal attacks because I happen not to like Mme. Schwarzkopf's recording of _Marietta's Lied_ to their dislike, I assume. I do not think that my integrity should be judged on the basis of my taste in music. I listened to the recording till the end before making my comment.
> 
> I am always respectful of other people's opinions in these forums. I was clearly mistaken to think that this is a forum where adults can exchange opinions openly and without being dressed down because one happens to think differently than the "norm". Time to reconsider.


I've been following this thread for some time because all four of you are far more experienced listeners than I am and thus I find it extremely interesting to read your exchange of different views. But I'm going to drop in for a moment because I sense some bad feelings.

I actually think that VitellioScarpia basically repeated this: "I prefer kunst divas -- after all I love Callas -- but she was unable to make it sound spontaneous. As wkasimer said, she was unable to demonstrate the "the art that conceals art"." (Am I right?) If one feels that the art does not conceal art anymore and when the singing does not feel spontaneous, then it makes sense why one would describe it as artificial. That's my guess at least .

I also understand Barbebleu though because I can see why one can become allergic to statements that could be interpreted as provocation. I think we have less of that in the opera forum but quite a lot in other subforums. Wagner-related threads are a good example of threads where debate is often initiated by short provocative comments. Of course this was probably not your intention at all but I think in such cases it's always safer to shortly restate why one thinks this or that way.

I propose that you should all listen to a late Bartok quartet (I suppose Shostakovich would be as soothing) and then continue sharing your views openly!


----------



## Woodduck

Our tastes in singers' voices and our reactions to their musical temperaments are properly subjective and require no justification. I understand some people's dislike of Schwarzkopf and can hear exactly why they dislike her, at the same time as I myself usually (though not invariably) enjoy her work and sometimes love it. Her voice was distinctive, it served her musical purposes well, and those purposes revealed a formidable, subtle and unstoppable musical intelligence and imagination. As with all singers, her voice and style are not equally suitable for all repertoire; I think she most naturally projected a quality of knowing sophistication, and I think she's surpassed by others in roles such as Elsa and Agathe which need a quality of innocence above all (Elisabeth Grummer comes first to mind), but for me the stylized worldliness of late Romantics such as Strauss, Wolf and Korngold suits her ideally. The lighter Strauss heroines and many of his songs might as well have been composed with her voice and temperament in mind.

Ira Siff, as Madame Vera Galupe-Borszkh, refers to "Betty Blackhead" and "Dietrich Fischer-That Cow" and their "long and literary careers," and gets a big laugh because we recognize the peculiarly intellectual quality of those artists, both of whom maintain an intense focus on illuminating the words they're singing. At their worst, that focus can seem excessive and sound like signaling; myself, I'm more irritated by F-D's increasing tendency to croon and spit than by Schwarzkopf's carefully cultivated inflections. But I'm grateful for the art of both of them while also glad that we can hear their repertoires sung by artists as different from them as Elisabeth Schumann, Lotte Lehmann, Heinrich Schlusnus and Joseph Schwarz.


----------



## annaw

Woodduck said:


> Ira Siff, as Madame Vera Galupe-Borszkh, refers to "Betty Blackhead" and "Dietrich Fischer-That Cow" and their "long and literary careers," and gets a big laugh because we recognize the peculiarly intellectual quality of those artists, both of whom maintain an intense focus on illuminating the words they're singing. At their worst, that focus can seem excessive and sound like signaling; myself, I'm more irritated by F-D's increasing tendency to croon and spit than by Schwarzkopf's carefully cultivated inflections. But I'm grateful for the art of both of them while also glad that we can hear their repertoires sung by artists as different from them as Elisabeth Schumann, Lotte Lehmann, Heinrich schlusnus and Joseph Schwarz.


In my opinion there's even a theory that Walter Legge, who worked with both Schwarzkopf and DFD, was partly to blame for DFD's occasional overinterpretation, which Schwarzkopf seemed to be able to avoid. I recall reading a story about one rehearsal Schwarzkopf had with Walter Legge but which Karajan was just watching. After Legge had asked Schwarzkopf to sing one phrase in different ways for an hour, Karajan fled the room stating that it was just pure sadism. Schwarzkopf said they continued polishing the same phrase for almost another hour.


----------



## Barbebleu

My apologies to Wkasimer and VitellioScarpia if they feel I was having a pop at them personally. That was not my intention. I am feeling particularly irascible at the moment due to the lockdown and I probably am taking it out on those who have done nothing to deserve it.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Oh dear, it seems things got a bit heated in my absence, which was not at all my intention. I posted a youtube video of Schwarzkopf singing (divinely, in my opinion) my favourite ever version of Marietta's Lied from _Die tote Stadt_, specifically for Barbebleu, and it seems to have precipitated a rather bitter exchange.

For my part, I will just say that Callas and Schwarzkopf between them have been responsible for enriching my love of opera from my early teens until now. You might think that the two artists couldn't have been more different, but they had one thing in common. Nothing about their art was casual or sloppy. Everything they did was at the service of the composer with scrupulous attention to detail. In the case of Schwarzkopf, some people feel that this attention to detail comes at the expense of spontaneity and I've heard the words "mannered" and "artificial" bandied about regarding her almost as long as I've been listening. All I can say is, though I can appreciate what people are getting at, I don't really hear it. Very occasionally, especially in Lieder, I might think she overcharacterises, but this feeling is rare, and for the most part, I am ravished by the sound, enraptured by the interpretation, its very detail one of its glories. When I listen, for instance, to her Marschallin, I can _see_ every change of expression and most others seem bland in comparison.

People often say her ego was massive, joyfully pointing out the episode of _Desert Island Discs_, when she chose all her own records. Apparently, she misunderstood the brief and she chose these records so she could talk about the wonderful people she had collaborated with over the years, often choosing an orchestral excerpt rather than her own contribution. On the other hand, Leontyne Price also chose nearly all her own records and once said, "It's terrible but you know I just love the sound of my own voice. Sometimes I simply move myself to tears. I suppose I must be my own best fan. I don't care if that sounds immodest - l feel that all singers must enjoy the sound they make if they're to have others enjoy it too." Which singer had the greater ego?

Schwarzkopf, on the other hand, was intensely self-critical. In the book, _Elisabeth Schwarzkopf: A career on Record_, part of the book is taken up by listening sessions John Steane had with Schwarzkopf, where they listened to some of her recordings, whilst she commented on them. Sometimes she pronounces herself satisfied, but often she hears little imperfections that the rest of us do not, a note ever so slightly out of tune, a song given what she now thinks the wrong treatment. She has marked reservations about many of her late recordings, which she did to please her husband Walter Legge. She says she would have retired earlier if it wasn't for him, and indeed she cancelled all her engagements the day after he died.

She can also be generous about other artists, Imrgard Seefried in particular, whom she says had by nature what others, including herself, had to work for. She also admired Callas enormously, famously saying that she dropped the role of Violetta from her repertoire after hearing Callas in the role, "What is the point of me singing a role that another singer now interprets to perfection?" (or words to that effect). She relates how one evening in Italy, Legge had gone to the opera house to hear a new singer, whilst she stayed in the hotel. Legge called her to tell her to get down to the opera house straight away to hear this singer. She refused, saying she was listening to a radio broadcast featuring a fabulous singer and wild horses wouldn't drag her away. That singer, both the one Legge was seeing and the one Schwarzkopf was hearing on the radio, was Callas. Visconti also relates how he used to have his own box at La Scala. One evening, when Callas was singing in *Il Trovatore* he arrived just before the last act to be told they had admitted a lady to his box. He slipped in, not recognising who it was. When Callas finished singing _D'amor sul'ali rosee_, the woman turned to him, with tears streaming down her face, and said, "That woman is a miracle." The woman in the box was Schwarzkopf.

To know the woman is to understand the art and, over the years, I've come to know her quite well. I think she is, without doubt, one of the greatest two or three sopranos of the latter half of the twentieth century. I know others may disagree, but I am firm and happy in my belief. She brings me a great deal of pleasure and ultimately that's all that matters.


----------



## NLAdriaan

annaw said:


> ...I can see why one can become allergic to statements that could be interpreted as *provocation*. I think we have less of that in the opera forum but quite a lot in other subforums. *Wagner-related threads* are a good example of threads where debate is often initiated by short provocative comments. Of course this was probably not your intention at all but I think in such cases it's always safer to shortly restate why one thinks this or that way...


We only share opinions here, nothing more. They are all equally valued.

There is a habit among certain TC members to label any opposing or just different views as a 'provocation' or 'trolling' and responding by attacking and insulting the opponent, the least of which is framing them as intentional 'trolls' or 'provocateurs'.

Some people just can't handle any opposition and instead of debating or ignoring, they just unhinge and respond aggressive, shooting from the hip, time after time, as if they are personally under attack, using the excuse that they were provoked or trolled. It is at least significant that this kind of polarizing responses mainly occur with certain composers or conductors, we all know who they are, they are at least all Germanic and pretty dominant/totalitarian characters. There is likely some logic behind all this: admiration, identification. And it probably never stops.

Who provokes who?

Just remember this is only a music forum, nothing more.


----------



## annaw

NLAdriaan said:


> We only share opinions here, nothing more. They are all equally valued.
> 
> There is a habit among certain TC members to label any opposing or just different views as a 'provocation' or 'trolling' and responding by attacking and insulting the opponent, the least of which is framing them as intentional 'trolls' or 'provocateurs'.
> 
> Some people just can't handle any opposition and instead of debating or ignoring, they just unhinge and respond aggressive, shooting from the hip, time after time, as if they are personally under attack, using the excuse that they were provoked or trolled. It is at least significant that this kind of polarizing responses mainly occur with certain composers or conductors, we all know who they are, they are at least all Germanic and pretty dominant/totalitarian characters. There is likely some logic behind all this: admiration, identification. And it probably never stops.
> 
> Who provokes who?
> 
> Just remember this is only a music forum, nothing more.


It was just an example - it was foolish of me to even bring such. Accusing someone was certainly not my goal and nor is it my right. I was very knowingly not referring to anyone specific. I'm willing to discuss such matters in different threads, but definitely not in this one.

I think this is an entirely off-topic discussion I didn't intend to initiate at all. So, let's leave it and continue talking about a different Richard and his amazing Four Last Songs. (Actually, I think I'm going to let the more knowledgeable people talk as my interventions, evidently, have some unintentional side-effects .)


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> My apologies to Wkasimer and VitellioScarpia if they feel I was having a pop at them personally. That was not my intention.


No problem. I didn't think that it was particularly aggressive, and I have a pretty thick skin.



> I am feeling particularly irascible at the moment due to the lockdown and I probably am taking it out on those who have done nothing to deserve it.


Maybe you should channel that irascibility and go out and tear down a statue or something.

That's a joke, in case anyone is humor-challenged.


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## Barbebleu

At my age it’s likely something else would tear!


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## Woodduck

NLAdriaan said:


> *We only share opinions* here, nothing more. *They are all equally valued. *
> 
> *There is a habit among certain TC members to label any opposing or just different views as a 'provocation' or 'trolling'* and responding by attacking and insulting the opponent, the least of which is framing them as intentional 'trolls' or 'provocateurs'.
> 
> *Some people* just can't handle any opposition and instead of debating or ignoring, they just unhinge and respond aggressive, shooting from the hip, time after time, as if they are personally under attack, using the excuse that they were provoked or trolled. It is at least significant that this kind of polarizing responses mainly occur with *certain composers or conductors, we all know who they are, they are at least all Germanic and pretty dominant/totalitarian characters.* There is likely some logic behind all this: admiration, identification. And it probably never stops.
> 
> Who provokes who?
> 
> *Just remember this is only a music forum, nothing more.*


All opinions equally valued? You seem intent on devaluing _someone_ here...

Your little rant serves no valid purpose in the context of the subject at hand. It's designed purely as a criticism of other people, and since no one here has said or done anything to warrant such an attack, it's entirely irrelevant and gratuitous. That makes it a clear example of provocation - of trolling - an utterly unnecessary disparagement of unnamed "certain TC members," with a clear reference to Wagner ("Germanic and pretty dominant/totalitarian characters" and "we all know who they are") and an implied but still clear reference to me, whose calling out of your Wagner phobia you seem unable to get over.

I see the game you're playing, Adriaan - anyone can see it, it's painfully obvious - and if you were a bit more self-aware or sensitive you'd be embarrassed by it.

"Just remember this is only a music forum, nothing more."


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## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> At my age it's likely something else would tear!


I know what you mean. It's painful enough at my age just to tear down fallacious arguments and persistent trolling on this forum (see post #106). I'm happy to leave the statues to the young folks.


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## VitellioScarpia

Barbebleu said:


> My apologies to Wkasimer and VitellioScarpia if they feel I was having a pop at them personally. That was not my intention. I am feeling particularly irascible at the moment due to the lockdown and I probably am taking it out on those who have done nothing to deserve it.


Thank you Barbeblue. I had not intention to offend with my opinion.


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## amfortas

Tsaraslondon said:


> I see elsewhere that you are a fan of Korngold. Have you heard this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apologies to others for going off topic, but this really is ravishing singing. I've never heard it done better, though wksimer would probably disagree :devil:


How about we all just agree: If you don't like this clip, you don't like Schwarzkopf. Period.


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## Woodduck

amfortas said:


> How about we all just agree: If you don't like this clip, you don't like Schwarzkopf. Period.


She had admirable facial bones too, here visible from two angles. But then beauty is in the eye of...


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## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> She had admirable facial bones too, here visible from two angles. But then beauty is in the eye of...


"_De gustibus non est disputandum_": There's no arguing with indigestion.


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## Barbebleu

She always had, imho, a very aristocratic look which served her well when singing someone like the Marschallin


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## MAS

amfortas said:


> How about we all just agree: If you don't like this clip, you don't like Schwarzkopf. Period.







Finally heard it. A gorgeous piece of music, radiantly done. However, I prefer it as a duet.


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## Tsaraslondon

MAS said:


> Finally heard it. A gorgeous piece of music, radiantly done. However, I prefer it as a duet.


How about this one?


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## Guest

"Vier Letzte Lieder". Timeless, magnificent songs with superb orchestration. They'll be around forever. I have Popp and Janowitz singing these. I used to like Jessye Norman's versions and on the anniversary of her death I've come to terms with the fact that I don't like her versions. Her voice is too huge and it overwhelms the music. Absolutely over the top. It has taken me a while to give shape to this antipathy but I'm sure there are others who disagree, which is their right.


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## Barbebleu

Tsaraslondon said:


> How about this one?


Tauber and Lehmann. What's not to like.


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## realdealblues

Christabel said:


> I used to like Jessye Norman's versions and on the anniversary of her death I've come to terms with the fact that I don't like her versions. Her voice is too huge and it overwhelms the music. Absolutely over the top. It has taken me a while to give shape to this antipathy but I'm sure there are others who disagree, which is their right.


Funny how we are all different. We're exact opposites. I find Norman one of the few to match the music's power and not underwhelm and understate the music.


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## VitellioScarpia

Barbebleu said:


> Tauber and Lehmann. What's not to like.


Perhaps Tauber. Perhaps Lehmann. Perhaps both... :lol:


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## mparta

Last songs work more than one way. When I listen to Te Kanawa I think that is the end of the world, no need for more.
Then I listen to Janowitz and it's not a comparable performance, the virtues are entirely different, but equal in degree and so, the world ends again.
I don't think I quite get there with Schwarzkopf anymore, or Norman, as wonderful as they are. Again, different virtues, but standing at the edge looking at the end of the world, not yet the actual end of the world.
Feeling a little apocalyptic this morning apparently.


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## Tsaraslondon

mparta said:


> Last songs work more than one way. When I listen to Te Kanawa I think that is the end of the world, no need for more.
> Then I listen to Janowitz and it's not a comparable performance, the virtues are entirely different, but equal in degree and so, the world ends again.
> I don't think I quite get there with Schwarzkopf anymore, or Norman, as wonderful as they are. Again, different virtues, but standing at the edge looking at the end of the world, not yet the actual end of the world.
> Feeling a little apocalyptic this morning apparently.


The opposite is true for me. Te Kanawa's versions I find beautiful but blank and Janowitz provides a kind of disembodied, pure beauty, which is fine on its own terms. However both Norman, and Schwarzkopf, especially with Szell, delve deeper into the meaning of the songs and I find Schwarzkopf/Szell particularly cathartic.


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## Barbebleu

I agree with you about Te Kanawa. Great voice, little emotional connection regardless of what she sings.

And I very much agree about Schwarzkopf/Szell.


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## Tsaraslondon

Discussion in the Opera Forum about the relative merits of Schwarzkopf/Szell and Janowitz/Karajan in _Beim Schlafengehen_ has made me revisit some complete versions I might have neglected.

Aside from that one song, first off I listened to both the Scharzkopf/Szell and Janowitz/Karajan complete recordings again and I find my views unchanged; renewed appreciation of Schwarzkopf's total understanding of the poetry, which wins out over Janowitz's less involved disembodied purity. To be honest, I know the Schwarzkopf/Szell version so well I find it very hard to put it out of my mind when listening to the songs.

However I then tried Studer/Sinopoli which has come in for a great deal of praise in some quarters. It certainly has its merits, but the problem I have with it is probably personal in that I often hear Studer as slightly flat. This put her performance out of the running, for me anyway.

For something completely different I tried Barbara Bonney's version with piano accompaniment. Bonney is a singer I usually like, but she doesn't really have the right voice character for the songs. Bonney's lovely voice always makes me think of spring rather than autumn. Oddly enough the young Elsa Dreisig, who has also recorded the piano accompanied version on her recent _Morgen_ is much better at expressing calm acceptance and resignation. I hope that in time she will give us the orchestral version too.

I didn't like Lise Davidsen's version one bit. The voice becomes too vibrant under pressure and I abhor her habit of starting a note white with no vibrato and then adding vibrato as she swells the sound. Her legato isn't great either. I know people are raving about her at the moment, but I'm not sure these songs were the best showcase for her.

It was a relief to turn back to Norman/Masur, which has now become my other favourite recording. This time round I was less bothered by the slow speeds. I think if I were to name a top five now, it would probably be.

1. Schwarzkopf/Szell
2. Norman/Masur
3. Popp/Tennstedt
4. Fleming/Thielemann
5. Janowitz/Karajan


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## Barbebleu

Yeah, you could stick me on a desert island with these and I would be a happy bunny.


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## ALT

In no particular order


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## ALT

And last, but not least


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