# Orchestra sound with Noteperformer



## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Hi from Munich!

Does anyone else use the Noteperformer plugin to create digital sound from a score? I couldn't find a matching thread so far.

I'm quite happy with the result so far, but I'm sure that there are some small tricks I don't know yet - which would improve the generated sound. For example further articulation markings or post-processing the WAV-Output.

Can someone share any experiences and hints? I'm currently using Sibelius as a notation software. In this piece, I didn't use any post-processing at all (1:1 from NotePerformer):






Please forgive any possible unusual notations, as this was my first orchestra piece.

I realized in other Noteperformer-examples, that the sound was more realistic when more instruments were added (but I wanted to keep the instrumentation small here). To understand the music better, you can also take a look at the slide show video from my alpine tour. I specially composed the music matching the athmospheric changes: 




Thanks in advance, Alex


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

For anyone who is wondering what NotePerformer is (but clicked on the title out of curiosity):

NotePerformer is a plugin for notation software which produces digital orchestra sound based on a score. It seems to use artificial intelligence to learn a more realistic phrasing by comparing existing scores and real recordings. Here the official trailer from the manufacturer: 




I'm just an amateur user of this software, but am quite pleased with it so far. Also I found it much faster to write the score (see first video link in the original post) and generate the sound with NotePerformer, than generating a comparable sound directly with a DAW.

I guess with a very good sample library, it may be possible to create a better sound with a DAW, but I think it would take much longer - and if a score is necessary, it has to be written additionally. With the plugin, the workflow gets reduced to 1+ step.

The "+" stands for some minor changes in the score which are just meant for the playback (f.e. special articulations), but not for the final score. Here I'm still experimenting and I would be happy to receive tips.

Any other experiences with the plugin or hints to improve the exported sound?


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

verandai said:


> For anyone who is wondering what NotePerformer is (but clicked on the title out of curiosity):
> 
> NotePerformer is a plugin for notation software which produces digital orchestra sound based on a score. It seems to use artificial intelligence to learn a more realistic phrasing by comparing existing scores and real recordings. Here the official trailer from the manufacturer:
> 
> ...


Yes, it takes longer to mock up music in a DAW but the effort is worth it if you are competent. It's true that doing so is an extra time consuming step which is why people are looking to the likes of Dorico to see if a notation software/DAW hybrid is truly possible. I'm sure one day there will be a solution to this problem but until then, one goes the route you have or perseveres with the extra work.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

My point is: If a score is needed anyway (or if someone is used to writing scores), it's only a little extra work to create a decent mockup with NotePerformer. If I find some tricks to improve the sound by editing the score, I'll share them.

Of course it's possible to create a better sound with a DAW. But my feeling is (at least for an orchestral piece), that the sound could be maybe 50% better, but with an additional effort of 200%

Therefore the cost-benefit-ratio is not favourable for my private use. Can anyone confirm that who uses both workflows?


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Realism is very important imv and though the extra work is a nuisance, until a solution is found a DAW and pro samples is the only way to get anywhere close to a convincing mock-up. NP is very good mind you for what it is, it's just not in the league of samples recorded in-situ, even taking into account the faults and problems one encounters with pro samples. Many idiomatic orchestral effects are better achieved with sample manipulation and more importantly, sound a little more accurate and not so misleading (provided one knows what they are doing).
Still for amateur use, NP is excellent and can only get better. There is another option, StaffPad which I use for sketching ideas. You might want to check that out as it can use libraries from pro-sample companies as playback.
My workflow involves writing direct to Sibelius (it used to be pencil and rubber on paper) on a Surface studio and then programming/mixing in LogicProX - 2 stages now I've cut out the paper.

https://www.staffpad.net/


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Thanks for your info! Do you export your Sibelius output with Non-NotePerformer-sound and import it as Midi in your DAW for Post-processing?

I agree that the NotePerformer-Output is pretty good for private use (or a first demo), but not sufficient as a professional result.

But as long as I write orchestra scores for a non-professional matter, I'll stay with the NotePerformer output and try to optimize it. Maybe someone can also share some helpful information for this task.

Thanks also for the info regarding Staffpad! Looks like it's easy to use (good haptics). But at the moment I don't have a touchscreen at home.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

The exporting of midi from Sibelius or any other software defeats the object when one is going for as much realism as possible imv, so no I don't export. I write into Sibelius and then play the parts into LogicPro (Sibelius is on Windows and Logic is on my Macs). I do this for several reasons, but mostly in order to avoid the robotic precision of midi. I'm a competent pianist so once a part is played in musically, I go about programming with appropriate samples. It is a time consuming process and I totally understand where you are coming from and that's before the mixing/producing stage! 
I'll add that it's possible that the more you learn about orchestration, the more frustrated you might become with a playback that does no justice to your intended scoring, especially when one begins to use more complicated techniques. Samples aren't perfect but at least one has more creative options using them.

StaffPad is well worth a look and for the record, Sibelius is also great with a stylus and good touchscreen.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> The exporting of midi from Sibelius or any other software defeats the object when one is going for as much realism as possible imv, so no I don't export. I write into Sibelius and then play the parts into LogicPro (Sibelius is on Windows and Logic is on my Macs). I do this for several reasons, but mostly in order to avoid the robotic precision of midi. I'm a competent pianist so once a part is played in musically, I go about programming with appropriate samples. It is a time consuming process and I totally understand where you are coming from and that's before the mixing/producing stage!
> I'll add that it's possible that the more you learn about orchestration, the more frustrated you might become with a playback that does no justice to your intended scoring, especially when one begins to use more complicated techniques. Samples aren't perfect but at least one has more creative options using them.
> 
> StaffPad is well worth a look and for the record, Sibelius is also great with a stylus and good touchscreen.


Interesting discussion you have here. I am also in the middle of creating a radiophonic version of my symphony. It is for a huge orchestra and I will not wait for an orchestra to get interested before hearing it and making it public in a decent form.

My methods are similar: I play samples with the piano, percussion acustically, I have an aerophone for the woodwinds and brass and a doublebass for the work on a bow. And many musicians as friends.

So I will make it a balanced action between played samples on midi, samples on exported midi, acoustic instruments, combination sounds, programming and studio technics. What an opportunity to use for example mono mellotron strings where needed! I will make this radiophonic experience MORE than just sampling a symphony orchestra.

The work will be a comment on the recorded history and sounds of symphony orchestras as well.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Yeah, it's remarkable how just a few live instruments can enhance the mock-up illusion. I've done as such many times, mainly out of budget restrictions professionally speaking. As an ex jazz guitarist, I had the idea to buy a cheap violin, viola and cello for the purpose of injecting live sound into pizzicato writing. Guitar technique gave me a perfect handle on string fingering, and most importantly, made me fully acquainted with multiple stop possibilities for my composing and scoring.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> Yeah, it's remarkable how just a few live instruments can enhance the mock-up illusion. I've done as such many times, mainly out of budget restrictions professionally speaking. As an ex jazz guitarist, I had the idea to buy a cheap violin, viola and cello for the purpose of injecting live sound into pizzicato writing. Guitar technique gave me a perfect handle on string fingering, and most importantly, made me fully acquainted with multiple stop possibilities for my composing and scoring.


I will also have to buy an electric violin and cello, mainly for creating the necessary articulation and attacks, not so much for the sustained notes or fast passages.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

I envy you being able to use an aerophone (Roland?). I have a Yamaha breath controller and should use it more often I suppose as it can be quite effective.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> I envy you being able to use an aerophone (Roland?). I have a Yamaha breath controller and should use it more often I suppose as it can be quite effective.


I used to play the Bass Clarinet! The fingering is very similar to Saxophone which the Roland uses. I love the instrument. I can even transpose stuff so that I can use the basic fingerings in different keys.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> The exporting of midi from Sibelius or any other software defeats the object when one is going for as much realism as possible imv, so no I don't export. I write into Sibelius and then play the parts into LogicPro (Sibelius is on Windows and Logic is on my Macs). I do this for several reasons, but mostly in order to avoid the robotic precision of midi. I'm a competent pianist so once a part is played in musically, I go about programming with appropriate samples. It is a time consuming process and I totally understand where you are coming from and that's before the mixing/producing stage!
> I'll add that it's possible that the more you learn about orchestration, the more frustrated you might become with a playback that does no justice to your intended scoring, especially when one begins to use more complicated techniques. Samples aren't perfect but at least one has more creative options using them.
> 
> StaffPad is well worth a look and for the record, Sibelius is also great with a stylus and good touchscreen.


As DAW, I'm working with Cubase - and so far I couldn't find a good quantizing setting when recording with a midi-keyboard. When I set the quantizing value too detailed (f.e. 1/32), I have to correct too many passages I've played inexactly. If I set the value too rough (like 1/8), I have to do many humanizing corrections afterwards. Maybe I have to set this value even more detailed, so that effect of a wrong timeslot positioning gets smaller.

I guess for a live instrument you don't do any quantizing at all. But how do choose a good quantizing value for midi instruments (for a medium tempo)?

Using also staves with live instruments is a good idea - I'll try that with a piano part in the next suitable piece.

As notation software, I also use Sibelius and I'm quite happy with it! I still have to find the best balance for me between Sibelius, Noteperformer and Cubase. Of course that will also depend on the music/project.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Verandai I see from your YT links that you are a decent player so I'd suggest not defaulting to using quantisation. If a passage is too fast or complicated, rather than practise it, I will sometimes just slow the tempo, play it in and leave it unquantised. If I can't get ensembles to work well, especially because of latency in the playback, I will try to offset midi regions as required with the delay/advance millisecond options rather than quantise. There are times when quantise is fine of course and one has to rely on one's musicality and interpretive ability when deciding if the accuracy is artificial or not - it's all about the 'feel'.

You seem unsure about quantising. Does Cubase have a parameter that lets you decide the strength of quantisation? In Logic one can quantise a passage say in 8's but can then decide on the percentage of that strength. So I could quantise 100%, where the quavers are computer tight and totally robotic, or decide on less of a percentage that will offset the quavers by a scale based on bits. This can be done on selected notes, passages or the whole midi-region.

For the best musical results, you don't choose a general catch-all quantisation for a region, you should break it down and utilise any number of ways to get the best musical result for the line under consideration - quite apart from the fact that several rhythmic values will most likely be in use. A midi instrument of mine will be generally un-quantised but will have passages of strict quantisation and other moments partially quantised or offset in some way.

Whilst on this, don't overlook fluctuating tempo neither as a means of achieving musicality. A rigid click is death to expression unless the music warrants it. My click programming sometimes look like an erratic waveform gone wrong, but that push and pull - subtle or not so subtle- is very important imv. I wrote a violin concerto the other year and had a soloist play it over the sampled mock-up. There are many places with rubato and ad-lib for the soloist so the manipulation of the tempo was crucial and actually easy to do thanks to a flexible click. As a result the music is all the more convincing as a performance (and hopefully as music. ).


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Thanks for the reply!

I've just read that there seems to be a "humanize" option at the quantizing function. I just didn't know about it yet - I'll test it.

My issue so far was, that I also want to input midi-data with little keyboard-wise practise. And so far I'm not doing well at recording the music at a significantly slower tempo. It often sounds incorrect or lacks the groove if I playback the material in the desired tempo. I guess I have to practise it more (to record in a slow tempo). And also experiment more with the quantizing levels in combination with the humanizing parameter.

I'm aware of the importance of a "breathing" click. Is there some demo available from your music somewhere? ==> ignore this, I just saw the link in your signature


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## gprengel (Dec 21, 2015)

Dear verandi,
I am so thrilled by your Gran Paradiso compostion and your rendition with NotePerformer - Wonderful!! I am also a huge fan of Noteperformer. Especially longer projects I could not imagine to create with DAW. I don't have the equipemt for this and also not the time (maybe sometime when I am retired). So I love to orchestrate piano sonatas or string quartets with Noteperformer and also to compose. Here my orchestration of awesome Mendelssohns last string quartet in f-minor, 1st movement.:


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Thanks for the encouragement!

I know that it's possible to create a more realistic sound with a DAW and a good sample library. I'm also interested to do further experiments in this area, once I have a better sample library for orchestra instruments.

But I'm really pleased about the little effort needed to produce an acceptable sound with NotePerformer! When I've acquired a decent orchestra sample library, I'll do some comparisons on how long it takes for me to create a noticeable better sound for a similar composition with a DAW.

Of course, composers with a lot of DAW-experience could do that in a much shorter time. But on the other hand, they probably also would be quicker in score writing - so the ratio should be more or less useful


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I just got myself the Noteperformer. Downloading it now. Let´s see what the Symphony sounds like with these sounds and phrasing... I am actually very excited!

Edit: this is actually quite funny. The Noteperformer does not understand my score at all! Then again it would have been a true miracle if the AI was able to balance the texture the way it is supposed to. It is complicated music after all. This sounds like a _really bad_ performance of an orchestral work.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Waehnen said:


> I just got myself the Noteperformer. Downloading it now. Let´s see what the Symphony sounds like with these sounds and phrasing... I am actually very excited!
> 
> Edit: this is actually quite funny. The Noteperformer does not understand my score at all! Then again it would have been a true miracle if the AI was able to balance the texture the way it is supposed to. It is complicated music after all. This sounds like a _really bad_ performance of an orchestral work.


I don't have NP as I use Sibelius but regardless of what NP can do (which is impressive for what it is), there are limits to the playback that can hamper musical enjoyment, creativity and limit expressive and timbral potential.
If your score is ultra-detailed, complex and/or uses less common techniques then you may well be disappointed. Achieving any sense of realism still requires detailed sample manipulation and mixing techniques that only a DAW can offer at present. Dorico will hopefully be the way forward in making the process less time consuming.
Why not post a snippett of score and playback for us to see if improvements and tweaks can be made.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> I don't have NP as I use Sibelius but regardless of what NP can do (which is impressive for what it is), there are limits to the playback that can hamper musical enjoyment, creativity and limit expressive potential.
> If your score is ultra-detailed, complex and/or uses less common techniques then you may well be disappointed. Achieving a sense of realism requires detailed sample manipulation and mixing techniques that only a DAW can offer at present. Dorico will hopefully be the way forward in making the process less time consuming.


Precisely! When I create the radiophonic version of the symphony I will have a team of musicians with whom we really make every ”track” the best we can. If pro samples cannot achieve something, then it will be recorded audio.

The challenge is not to become lazy! Or for the ears/mind to get used to some mediocre sound/phrasing. That is why I will need the team. To challenge what I hear or do not hear.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

...so this is not going to be an orchestral type symphony then?
Pro samples are meant for DAW's ideally to reach their full musical potential. You could get an orchestral programmer involved.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> ...so this is not going to be an orchestral type symphony then?
> Pro samples are meant for DAW's ideally to reach their full musical potential. You could get a programmer involved.


Yes it is orchestral. I am not sure what you mean?

I will use a combination of many techniques while creating the radiophonic version. For example the strings will be a combination of sample layering and some recorded audio. I can play double bass with a bow myself etc.

I cannot decide everything beforehand.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Sorry, It was the term 'radiophonic' and a reference to a 'team' that slightly threw me, you mean recording session right? What do you mean when you say that musicians will "challenge" you in some way? Will they play from a part or will they have more creative input?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> Sorry, It was the term 'radiophonic' and a reference to a 'team' that slightly threw me. What do you mean when you say that musicians will "challenge" you in some way? Will they play from a part or will they have more creative input?


It will be radiophonic in the sense that there will be studioelements as well. I will play around with stereo picture etc. I will use mellotron strings in some ”epic” situations, I will drive piccolo through distortion in one section etc.

I am foremost a composer but I have experienced it so many times that when musicians play my music it sounds much better than ever in my imagination. So I want the input of experienced musicians involved. I want them to say ”that could be better” when there is place for such.

So I will need all kinds of expertise and techniques. I will give it my all.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

ok, perhaps as much a collaboration as a finished, complete orchestral score. Sounds like you'll need a good engineer too and lots of studio time. Have you got a DAW? If you do have, are you going to mix and produce yourself using the stems? You could save a lot of money that way and play with effects all day long....unless of course you own the studio..


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> ok, perhaps as much a collaboration as a finished, complete orchestral score. Sounds like you'll need a good engineer too and lots of studio time. Have you got a DAW? If you do have, are you going to mix and produce yourself using the stems? You could save a lot of money that way and play with effects all day long....unless of course you own the studio..


I use Sibelius (complete orchestral score is the reference point) and Cubase DAW. I will be the producer and first mixer this time. A second mixer will enhance the tracks and do some balancing, and also the mastering.

It has occurred to me I could use your advice and feedback at some stage of the project!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Sure thing, obviously bearing in mind it's all subjective. Depending on how further you want to go from the norms of orchestral sound though, the less relevant any comment becomes beyond the "I like it/hate it" sort. As it seems as though there is going to be elements of sound design I guess realism in the usual sense isn't going to apply here.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> Sure thing, obviously bearing in mind it's all subjective. Depending on how further you want to go from the norms of orchestral sound though, the less relevant any comment becomes beyond the "I like it/hate it" sort. As it seems as though there is going to be elements of sound design I guess realism in the usual sense isn't going to apply here.


Realism will be important. After all, a realistic symphony orchestra sounds wonderful, objectively. So that will be the main route. Some ”distortion on piccolo which moves in the stereo picture” is a spice.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> Sure thing, obviously bearing in mind it's all subjective. Depending on how further you want to go from the norms of orchestral sound though, the less relevant any comment becomes beyond the "I like it/hate it" sort. As it seems as though there is going to be elements of sound design I guess realism in the usual sense isn't going to apply here.


To begin with, your skills with string sampling seem formidable. You have very convincing attacks and articulation.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Waehnen said:


> To begin with, your skills with string sampling seem formidable. You have very convincing attacks and articulation.


Thanks Waehnen, you're too kind. What helps is appropriate writing in the first place. Doing so gets you a long way in the realism stakes. The samples I used in my Oboe Concerto are off the shelf bought (VSL SYnchron, Spitfire and Berlin strings), the programming and any musicality was hard won over many years of study and practice of course.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> I just got myself the Noteperformer. Downloading it now. Let´s see what the Symphony sounds like with these sounds and phrasing... I am actually very excited!
> 
> Edit: this is actually quite funny. The Noteperformer does not understand my score at all! Then again it would have been a true miracle if the AI was able to balance the texture the way it is supposed to. It is complicated music after all. This sounds like a _really bad_ performance of an orchestral work.


Hi Waehnen,

I'm still pretty happy with the purchase of NotePerformer. I'm also using it in combination with Sibelius, and Cubase as DAW.

I still have to experiment a lot more with both systems, but this is my temporary evaluation so far:

If a score is going to be created anyway, NotePerformer can create a decent demo in a short time from it
NotePerformer doesn't produce good results for solo-parts
The sound improves at bigger orchestra instrumentations
For people having a good imagination of score & sound (vice versa), it is a really useful tool
It can't compete with sound which was well produced by a DAW, but that's not what it's meant for (at least I don't plan to use it that way)
You can take a look at my NotePerformer-Demos on the first post in this thread, I've fixed the broken links. I didn't do any postprocessing (NotePerformer 1:1 playing my score), and I'm pretty happy with the result. I know that it doesn't get near DAW-results with a good sample-library, but I only had to invest little extra time, as I wanted to write the score anyway.

In what kind of music does the composition point? Maybe NotePerformer is better trained in ordinary classical music.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

verandai said:


> Hi Waehnen,
> 
> I'm still pretty happy with the purchase of NotePerformer. I'm also using it in combination with Sibelius, and Cubase as DAW.
> 
> ...


I am happy with my purchase! I was just so amused with the initial results. Of course there is no AI that can fathom the right balance with this kind of music without adjustments.

I will use Sibelius Sounds and Noteperformer together and choose a suitable sound track by track.


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