# Agree or Disagree: Harnoncourt is a Great Conductor!



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I always find his renditions full of life and energy. His CD of the last three symphonies by Mozart is fantastic!


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

I don't care to make a judgement on that question but I will say that I very much enjoy his work, especially with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe. Some of the videos on YouTube of their rehearsals are both entertaining and enlightening.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

I am somewhat reluctant to use the word”great” but I think he made major contributions to classical music in his lifetime. I think he will become known and acknowledged in time as a “great” conductor. Of the Harnoncourt cds that I own I thoroughly enjoy them all.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Unless you can give us a rigorous, objective definition of 'great' then it is a meaningless question.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Becca said:


> Unless you can give us a rigorous, objective definition of 'great' then it is a meaningless question.


Or you can leave it subjective and explain yourself in your response.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Very good, not great.

There is not a living conductor whom I would call great. The last active living greats were Karajan and Bernstein. And there was also Carlos Kleiber who was not really active.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> ...There is not a living conductor whom I would call great....


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

His sound and style developed over the decades and became very individual and recognizable. It's the polar opposite of the smooth orchestral style cultivated by Karajan (sometimes to excess in both their cases --- See Hurwitz's critique of Karajan's Debussy). Harnoncourt's attack felt to me as if he meant to turn a good many composers into Beethoven with extremes in dynamics. (Nobody does a better Coriolan than Harnoncourt IMHO.) He was sort of the anti-Romantic in that he would sometimes almost deconstruct orchestral phrasing like a Glenn Gould. I like his performances of Schubert's Symphonies, but I like them the way I like Gould's recordings of the Mozart piano sonatas. Harnoncourt knocks all the sugar-coating right off them. He also recorded Mozart's earliest symphonies and knocks any Rococo ebullience right the hell out of them. His recordings of the Beethoven Symphonies and overtures were revelatory in their day. His temperament seemed most suited to Beethoven. He made a beautiful recording of Mozart's Requiem. I was never that taken by his performances of the Bach cantatas. I think he can be numbered among the very best and most influential perhaps.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Yes. Great. He had all the makings: exciting performances and recordings, he did his research from source materials, had a very wide repertoire. Unlike a lot of his early-music comrades, he transcended that stereotype and repeatedly demonstrated his skill and musicality. Not only did he perform Bach and Handel with authority, but then went on to record marvelous readings of Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Dvorak, Bruckner and even Franz Schmidt. There's not one recording of his I have that is dull or second-rate.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

This thread is proving I have a good ear. I didn't know much about him other than my ear liked what it heard!


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Yeah I like him doing Baroque music in the Baroque way. I haven't listened to him that extensively, but I like his HIP and many Baroque knowledge and understandings. Check this video out. When I was listening to Brandenburg Concertos before watching his teachings, I thought it was just a concerto with various solo instruments and nothing else is different with later concertos, and therefore I wasn't quite a fan of the Brandenburg Concertos. Until I saw this video, I found there are so many interesting things about the Concerto and Baroque is indeed a diverse era of music--Classical and Romantic are surely more developed, but I doubt whether they are as diverse as Baroque.

*WHEN SOMEONE LIKE THIS LOOKS AT YOU IN THIS WAY, YOU KNOW YOU ARE IN TROUBLE.*


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

KevinW said:


> Yeah I like him doing Baroque music in the Baroque way. I haven't listened to him that extensively, but I like his HIP and many Baroque knowledge and understandings. Check this video out. When I was listening to Brandenburg Concertos before watching his teachings, I thought it was just a concerto with various solo instruments and nothing else is different with later concertos, and therefore I wasn't quite a fan of the Brandenburg Concertos. Until I saw this video, I found there are so many interesting things about the Concerto and Baroque is indeed a diverse era of music--Classical and Romantic are surely more developed, but I doubt whether they are as diverse as Baroque.
> 
> *WHEN SOMEONE LIKE THIS LOOKS AT YOU IN THIS WAY, YOU KNOW YOU ARE IN TROUBLE.*
> View attachment 162472


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: LOL


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I just listened to his version of the London Symphonies, wow!


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2021)

I was very lucky to have had the Harnoncourt experience many times in Vienna a decade ago; in the Musikverein and at Theater an der wien. In fact, I was at Harnoncourt's very last appearance in the Musikverein in May, 2015. He died 10 months later. He came onto the stage supported by a walking stick but, as usual, he addressed the audience before to discuss what Concentus was about to play and his thinking behind the interpretation. That performance was actually recorded, Beethoven Symphony #5 (though I thought the brass was way too loud for the work in the final movement).


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Very good, not great.
> 
> There is not a living conductor whom I would call great. The last active living greats were Karajan and Bernstein. And there was also Carlos Kleiber who was not really active.





Becca said:


> Unless you can give us a rigorous, objective definition of 'great' then it is a meaningless question.


What Becca a said.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

premont said:


> What Becca a said.


define it for yourself by your own standards and explain yourself.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

vtpoet said:


> He made a beautiful recording of Mozart's Requiem.


One thing I consider as a flaw in his recording is his take on the Hostias; it's way too fast.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

premont said:


> What Becca a said.


For your sake, let's just re-word great to favorite.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I just disagree, I've seen him twice and he just don't work for me.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Rogerx said:


> I just disagree, I've seen him twice and he just don't work for me.


What exactly don't you like? Too much excitement in his renditions? Do you prefer more mellow approaches?


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

What about these? Are these weird?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

IMO, Harnoncourt is a matter of taste. Personally, I don’t want to hear Beethoven symphonies with chamber orchestras. In fact, I don’t want to hear Mozart symphonies and concertos with small ensembles. I’m not a fan of HIP or fast tempo. For me, it’s similar to the forte-piano vs the modern grand issue. I purchased some of the Harnoncourt Mozart operas back when and wish I hadn’t. And this is not a comment on his skill as a conductor.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

IMO, Harnoncourt's Beethoven Symphony cycle with the Chamber Orchestra is the best thing to come out of Classical Music.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Captainnumber36 said:


> IMO, Harnoncourt's Beethoven Symphony cycle with the Chamber Orchestra is the best thing to come out of Classical Music.


A total betrayal of Mozart, Capt'n .


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> What exactly don't you like? Too much excitement in his renditions? Do you prefer more mellow approaches?


I really do not like his style, his opera recordings with Concentus Musicus Wien and the Royal Concergebouw orchestra never held my attention. I do have on DVD and one opera with Lucia Popp, just for her , her last recording.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

DaveM said:


> IMO, Harnoncourt is a matter of taste. Personally, I don't want to hear Beethoven symphonies with chamber orchestras. In fact, I don't want to hear Mozart symphonies and concertos with small ensembles.


I think almost all orchestral recordings with Harnoncourt are with relatively large ensembles, especially in the HIP context. The Beethoven and a few other recordings with the CoE might be an exception but it is not a very small ensemble despite its name.
He did most of Mozart, Haydn's London set, Schubert with the Concertgebouw and his Concentus musicus recordings of Handel and Haydn (probably Bach as well) sound rather large (some of the recordings have complete lists of musicians but I am not looking this up and count the numbers)
That does not mean one should like what he does but in Baroque, Haydn and Mozart Harnoncourt's *orchestra size* is probably above average of the last ca. 40 years. Unlike many other HIP recordings, his almost never (I cannot think of a single case) sound "small".


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

KevinW said:


> A total betrayal of Mozart, Capt'n .


:devil::devil::devil::devil:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> IMO, Harnoncourt's Beethoven Symphony cycle with the Chamber Orchestra is the best thing to come out of Classical Music.


The Beethoven piano concertos with Aimard have been really rethought through from scratch, they owe nothing to the 20th century tradition. Something essential to hear once, maybe more than once.

He made several recordings of the Missa Solemnis, IMO all of them are very rewarding. I'm very fond of the later ones.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I eventually got rid of the Beethoven with Aimard (except Triple) as they are quite original (and beautiful woodwind passages, like many of his CoE recordings) but so slow to lack the energy I want in these pieces. Similarly (not particularly slow, though), I found the Beethoven violin concerto with Kremer too mannered (and the cadenza with a piano appearing from nowhere is horrible.

Overall, I think Harnoncourt was one of the most original and influential musicians in classical music since the early 1960s. Some of the "pioneering" recordings have been superseded, others are still quite interesting or in any case quite distinctive, such as the Bach cantatas shared with Harnoncourt or the all male singers St. Matthew and Xmas oratorio from ca. 1970.

Most of his Handel, Haydn and Mozart I have heard is also quite distinctive and worth checking out. Some of the Handel oratorios are cut to shreds and with a mixed bag of singers but the concerti are among my favorite recordings. All the Haydn symphonies with the Concentus are among the most colorful and best I have heard, the London set with the Concertgebouw not as good but worth checking out. The Mozart symphonies are lacking in grace and elegance but taken completely seriously as "big works". Some are overly mannered and slow (41 is not convincing). He is also probably the conductor to make most of the Salzburg Church music. I only know a bit of the Mozart operas, there were some legendary performances in Zurich (also of Monteverdi) but the recordings seem not always as successful.

Except for some exceptions, mostly Beethoven (esp. symphonies 1-4, 7, missa solemnis) and Schubert (NOT the early Vienna "Unfinished" which is a candidate for his worst recording, IMO), I am considerably less convinced by his later recordings of 19th century repertoire. They are either good but not very distinctive (Schumann symphonies) or strange and mannered (Brahms symphonies).


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Whatever your definition of "a great conductor" is he was certainly one of them. He had his off days but he also produced so many great performances and recordings. It often seemed that he had a new and (once you had listened a couple of times) very persuasive takes on much of the repertoire. He was an iconoclast who you could almost always hear drawing on the long tradition that preceded him.

His ground breaking Bach (still my favourite Brandenburgs among them) and Handel (his Op. 6 again a favourite) would be enough on their own. But he continued with this repertoire to surprise and enthral us. His Dvorak (so alive in the way that quiet nature is alive) and his Beethoven (he was one of the truly great Beethoven conductors) and much of his Mozart give us other sides of his complex musical character. 

His HIP Baroque accounts - perhaps especially the early ones - stand apart from much of what became the standard approach to HIP because of his willingness to use slower speeds instead of making everything slick and fast. Only very recently have other HIP performers been willing to slow down when the music needs it.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

He was a true revolutionary, undoubtedly one of the greatest conductors of the last half century, a giant of the HIPP movement.
It was interesting to hear him conduct traditional Orchestras. I don't actually like to many of his recordings, but there is no disputing his status as an original trailblazer


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2021)

Captainnumber36 said:


> IMO, Harnoncourt's Beethoven Symphony cycle with the Chamber Orchestra is the best thing to come out of Classical Music.


I think these were actually award-winning performances with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe. I have that boxed set and it's a constant source of pleasure and joy.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2021)

I love this and it was performed the year we were living in Vienna. Though I wasn't at this particular concert, it's easy to reach Melk from Vienna. It's Mozart's edition of the Handel too. The audience was disappointingly quiet at the end; this has not been my experience of *Viennese* audiences either.






Having seen Harnoncourt/Concentus/Arnold Schoenberg Choir at Theater an der Wien I can tell you there are two people who are physically exhausted from those performances because they just DO NOT STOP: Continuo player and conductor. I watched from two floors up and was so impressed by Harnoncourt's stamina. By then he was 81 or 82 years old.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2021)

This was the production I attended in 2011 at Theater an der Wien, Handel's "Rodelinda". Not the night of this recording, but this particular production. The great man's enthusiasm never flagged for a second during the whole performance. I had to pinch myself, coming from Australia, that I was in the theatre where Beethoven had actually lived and I chose to read the titles in German all the way through!!

I was surrounded by many sympathetic audience members - the wonderful Viennese - an experience I was to replicate some weeks later at Wiener Staatsoper for Handel's "Alcina".


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

All these live vids are showing me he is exactly what I desire from a live performance! Energy.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I listened to his Brahms 4 yesterday. Very good! Lots of clarity, and I didn't find the first three movements lacking at all in sheer force (the last movement perhaps could have used a few extra decibels). He's one of the best for pre-Romantic music. In my view that already makes him a great conductor.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I listened to his Brahms 4 yesterday. Very good! Lots of clarity, and I didn't find the first three movements lacking at all in sheer force (the last movement perhaps could have used a few extra decibels). He's one of the best for pre-Romantic music. In my view that already makes him a great conductor.


I also enjoyed the Brahms when it came out, I remember that Mackerras 's cycle came out at roughly the same time with similar sized orchestra, I enjoyed the Harnoncourt more (I've never got much out of Mackerras's conducting, as far as I remember - maybe I have a vague memory of some of the first Mozart cycle, and possibly some Janacek in the opera house.)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> All these live vids are showing me he is exactly what I desire from a live performance! Energy.


Check out his Vivaldi. The cimento dell'armonia e dell'inventione (that's the cycle which includes the Four Seasons) and, if you can find it, the live concerto for flute, op 10/2, La Notte it's called, a concert at The Holland Festival in 1973.


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## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Very good, not great.
> 
> There is not a living conductor whom I would call great. The last active living greats were Karajan and Bernstein. And there was also Carlos Kleiber who was not really active.


Blomstedt conducting Bruckner?


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> define it for yourself by your own standards and explain yourself.


My post invites Brahmsianhorn to define what he means with great in his post above. As to me I find the concept senseless in the given context.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> For your sake, let's just re-word great to favorite.


Yes, this would make sense.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

I'm not much into romantic music, nor into Mozart for that matter, so concerning Harnoncourt it's his baroque music recordings which stands out for me. It can't be denied, that they stand out with an individual voice, which constitutes an intersting addition to the spectrum of different recordings. I have heard him in a recital (as far back as 1965) in a Bach program with Concentus Musicus, which by then was a shocking new experience, and his role as renewer is undisputed.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

He is undoubtedly a great conductor for the HIP approach. But for me, I am not a big fan of any of his recordings I heard so far. I like some recordings by Gardiner and Bruggen on period instrument, especially Mozart symphonies. Maybe I am not into HIP enough to appreciate Harnoncourt.


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## Michael122 (Sep 16, 2021)

Have listened to Harnoncourt, have not purchased Harnoncourt.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Bruckner Anton said:


> He is undoubtedly a great conductor for the HIP approach. But for me, I am not a big fan of any of his recordings I heard so far. I like some recordings by Gardiner and Bruggen on period instrument, especially Mozart symphonies. Maybe I am not into HIP enough to appreciate Harnoncourt.


Have you heard the Dvorak 9th Harnoncourt made? That is one terrific recording. It could justifiably be a reference recording. Another one that is unassailable: the Mendelssohn 3 & 4 symphonies on Teldec with the COE.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

If one 'objectively' regards orchestras like the Berliner Phil, Wiener Phil and the Concertgebouw as some of the best & finest orchestras worldwide, then one may, in my opinion, also say that Harnoncourt is 'objectively' a great conductor.
Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Bruckner, Dvorak, Strauss (the 'Walzer') family, to name just a few, he did them with orchestras of that level, either live or 'studio' and they kept asking him back.

I have a Dutch book about the Matthäus Passion tradition of the Concertgebouw, and in Amsterdam the general tendency about Harnoncourt is/was: in baroque, classical and early romantic music, he cleaned our ears and we loved it immensely.

My own opinion about him: he did it his way, and I (mostly) loved it.
I felt sad when I heard he died. As a teenager I came to love Bach, and, together with Gustav Leonhardt, Harnoncourt showed me the way in those years.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

The Concertgebouw was the first major orchestra he worked with, already in the 1970s, I think (unless one counts Zurich opera but I think one can say that it is one rank or two below Concertgebouw without being unfair). Their first recordings are Mozart symphonies from the early 1980s. These must have quite been controversial when they came out. I first encountered them about a decade later and they were still rather unusual in their combination of a big orchestra with some HIP (or Harnoncourtian) specialities. But apparently the orchestra liked him enough (and/or the stuff sold well enough) to continue not only the Mozart recordings but keep adding more.
I think there was more "resistance" by the classical establishment in Austria and maybe also Germany, thus the "bypass" with the Styriarte and Chamber Orchestra of Europe (for non-baroque music) but I have not read any biography.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Kreisler jr said:


> The Concertgebouw was the first major orchestra he worked with, already in the 1970s, I think (unless one counts Zurich opera but I think one can say that it is one rank or two below Concertgebouw without being unfair). Their first recordings are Mozart symphonies from the early 1980s. These must have quite been controversial when they came out. I first encountered them about a decade later and they were still rather unusual in their combination of a big orchestra with some HIP (or Harnoncourtian) specialities. But apparently the orchestra liked him enough (and/or the stuff sold well enough) to continue not only the Mozart recordings but keep adding more.
> I think there was more "resistance" by the classical establishment in Austria and maybe also Germany, thus the "bypass" with the Styriarte and Chamber Orchestra of Europe (for non-baroque music) but I have not read any biography.


His friendship with Leonhardt, Brüggen et al was of course a good 'entrance' to the Dutch concert life.
He began conducting Bach's Passions in Den Haag (The Hague) with the Residentie Orkest in the early 1970s. Because of the relationships between the two orchestras, the Concertgebouw also decided to take the 'risk' and replace Eugen Jochum for the yearly Palm Sunday performance of Bach's Passions in Amsterdam. These concerts were broadcasted live on the Dutch radio. But the broadcasting corporation did not like the change. In Harnoncourt's first year in Amsterdam. 1975, he conducted the Johannes-Passion with the Concertgebouw, and the radio broadcast corporation decided to turn back to an earlier live recording with Eugen Jochum, to let their audience hear the 'real Bach'.
So yes, it was quite controversial back then.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

premont said:


> My post invites Brahmsianhorn to define what he means with great in his post above. As to me I find the concept senseless in the given context.


To be a great conductor means the same as being a great instrumentalist. When you take the baton in hand, you do things others can only dream of doing. The last living conductors I can describe that way are Karajan, Bernstein, and Kleiber.

Harnoncourt was a great innovator.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> To be a great conductor means the same as being a great instrumentalist. When you take the baton in hand, you do things others can only dream of doing. The last living conductors I can describe that way are Karajan, Bernstein, and Kleiber.
> 
> Harnoncourt was a great innovator.


Yes, he was a great innovator and a great technician, but whether you call him a great musician or not depends solely upon your taste. This is the reason why I tend to avoid the term great in this kind of contexts.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

premont said:


> Yes, he was a great innovator and a great technician, but whether you call him a great musician or not depends solely upon your taste. This is the reason why I tend to avoid the term great in this kind of contexts.


I have the solution.

He was OK.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Marc said:


> I have the solution.
> 
> He was OK.


Certainly OK.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

People should be able to recognize great careers, even when some component of it isn't necessarily to their taste.

I posit that there is no reasonable definition of "great conductor" that doesn't include Harnoncourt, even if some of his recordings aren't to everyone's taste. After all, there is no conductor, dead or alive, whose work is uniformly suited to everyone's taste.

Anything else is pretty brainless hero worship.



Brahmsianhorn said:


> The last living conductors I can describe that way are Karajan, Bernstein, and Kleiber.


This tells me something about you, but that's all.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Have you heard the Dvorak 9th Harnoncourt made? That is one terrific recording. It could justifiably be a reference recording. Another one that is unassailable: the Mendelssohn 3 & 4 symphonies on Teldec with the COE.


Thank you for your recommendation. I haven't heard these recordings. I will try them.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

In my opinion, just about every big name conductor was great or excelled in certain repertoire. Being prolific isn't a measure of how good they were, since it's quality over quantity, although someone good at everything they did is still something to be admired. I only have Harnoncourt's Mozart Symphonies 40 and 41, and thought they were distinguished, even if not entirely to my taste.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Knorf said:


> even when some component of it isn't necessarily to their taste, People should be able to recognize great careers


such as Furt............ I mean Frank Furt!!!!


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Knorf said:


> People should be able to recognize great careers, even when some component of it isn't necessarily to their taste.
> 
> I posit that there is no reasonable definition of "great conductor" that doesn't include Harnoncourt, even if some of his recordings aren't to everyone's taste. After all, there is no conductor, dead or alive, whose work is uniformly suited to everyone's taste.
> 
> ...


I never said Harnoncourt wasn't suited to my taste. He was very musical. Listen to his Eroica, the best of the HIP lot.

It's funny how people assume negativity if I simply say my standard of greatness is very high.

Toscanini wasn't suited to my taste, but he was a great conductor without a doubt. He did things on the podium no one else could do. He was like a Heifetz in that sense, another artist not to my taste who was nevertheless great.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I'd say Harnoncourt was a great musician; he apparently was not a very good conductor *technically* (hardly surprising for a cellist who led smallish ensembles from the 'cello for about 20 years before taking up a baton) but nevertheless able to get across his often peculiar ideas very well.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I never said Harnoncourt wasn't suited to my taste. He was very musical. Listen to his Eroica, the best of the HIP lot.


The text above where I quoted you wasn't directly a response to you. ETA: maybe I should have separated that into two posts.



> It's funny how people assume negativity if I simply say my standard of greatness is very high.


You literally wrote that there are no great conductors since Karajan, Bernstein, or Kleiber.

Anyway. Likewise, I have little taste for Furtwängler in general, but I'd never argue he wasn't a great conductor.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Knorf said:


> You literally wrote that there are no great conductors since Karajan, Bernstein, or Kleiber.


Correct. I have a high standard for "greatness." It doesn't mean everyone else sucks.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Love Harnoncourt <3 He is from my time.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> I'd say Harnoncourt was a great musician; he apparently was not a very good conductor *technically* (hardly surprising for a cellist who led smallish ensembles from the 'cello for about 20 years before taking up a baton) but nevertheless able to get across his often peculiar ideas very well.


Harnoncourt was greatly admired and loved in Austria for his musicianship and very direct and personal way with audiences. His wife Alice was a first violinist in Concentus for decades and his son is a theatre director; their daughter, Elizabeth van Magnus, is a singer. Sadly, their third son. Eberhard (a violin maker) was killed over three decades ago in an auto accident in Passau. Nikolaus Harnoncourt's mother was directly descended from the Austrian royal family. The Harnoncourts are Austrian 'royal family'.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Correct. I have a high standard for "greatness." It doesn't mean everyone else sucks.


Right, "great", "greatness" can be defined in different ways...of the past generation for me - Solti and Bernstein were "great" conductors....karajan most certainly had a "great" career, no doubt, but I don't really consider him a "great" conductor...of more recent podium maestros - Abbado, Rozh'sky, Salonen might be great conductors....


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2022)

Harnoncourt endured a condition known as Grave's Disease in the last decades of his life which caused him to look rather fearful. But he soldiered on like the trooper he was.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Correct. I have a high standard for "greatness." [...].


_I am not always a very good conductor, not even always a good conductor. "Great" is a word too abused and universally misused for me ever to call upon it in a serious statement._

(Leonard Bernstein, summer 1990, in the preface of the _Leonard Bernstein Edition_ of Deutsche Grammophon.)

That's why I dared to respond in this thread, because, thank goodness (or greatness), TalkClassical isn't a place for serious statements after all.


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