# Asperger's Syndrome, music criticism and Glenn Gould



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

This interview with music critic, Tim Page, is well worth a listen.

http://slippedisc.com/2015/11/tim-page-glenn-gould-had-a-lot-of-autism/


----------



## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

DavidA said:


> This interview with music critic, Tim Page, is well worth a listen.
> 
> http://slippedisc.com/2015/11/tim-page-glenn-gould-had-a-lot-of-autism/


Thanks for sharing this.

As a fan of GG and a med student (psychiatry being one of the studied fields), I spent a considerable amount of time trying to figure out what he could have had. In addition to my own analysis, I read several opinions of expert who provided their take on the matter.

Most opinions point to Asperger's Syndrome as the main cause of GG's symptoms (social phobia, isolation, eccentricities, phenomenal memory, etc.). Broadly, Asperger's Syndrome (which doesn't exist anymore as all spectres of Autism have been merged into Autism) was diagnosed in kids with Autism and a functional level of social skills (unlike the others, they are capable of interacting and leading a somewhat normal social life).

Without necessarily discrediting the majority's opinion, because it is quite plausible, I'll only say that the diagnosis isn't that clear. Many medical and psychiatric conditions are capable of explaining GG's symptoms. He could have had a schizoid personality disorder which could lead to schizophrenia at an older age (I remember Cornelia Foss stating in a documentary that she and her kids had to leave him at some point because the ''episodes'' he was sometimes having at night (delusions, being convinced that someone was trying to poison him, being convinced of medical issues he did not have, etc.) became too intense. Another possibility is that he could have had an obsessive compulsif disorder, his obsession being catching germs and his compulsion being avoiding people and wearing gloves in order to prevent that. To those possibilities you can ad many others which I'm afraid will bore you if I start discussing in details. For instance, he was known to take a lot of medication for the physical and psychological symptoms he had. The amount of pills combined with the psychiatric condition(s) he had could've easily explained the ''episodes'' Cornelia Foss was referring to (them being acute moments of delirium rather than actual psychosis).

So in my opinion, we'll never find out what he really had because like anything with psychiatric disorders you have to consult several times and share every single detail of your private life in order for your healthcare specialist to be able to determine the right diagnosis.

All we'll ever have are speculations.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Gouldanian said:


> Broadly, Asperger's Syndrome (which doesn't exist anymore as all spectres of Autism have been merged into Autism) was diagnosed in kids with Autism and a functional level of social skills (unlike the others, they are capable of interacting and leading a somewhat normal social life).


Just because it is within the autism spectrum it is not the same as it does not exist.


----------



## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

Sloe said:


> Just because it is within the autism spectrum it is not the same as it does not exist.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

The DSM V (The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), which is the bible of psychiatry, has abolished Asperger's Syndrome. It no longer exists (like it did in the DSM IV). Medically speaking, all varieties of Autism are designated as ''Autism''. I disagree with the new classification, but that's how it is.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Gouldanian said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
> 
> The DSM V (The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), which is the bible of psychiatry, has abolished Asperger's Syndrome. It no longer exists (like it did in the DSM IV). Medically speaking, all varieties of Autism are designated as ''Autism''. I disagree with the new classification, but that's how it is.


One manual in America.
I know people that have been diagnosed with Aspergers syndrom after the publication of DSM-V.


----------



## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

Sloe said:


> One manual in America.
> I know people that have been diagnosed with Aspergers syndrom after the publication of DSM-V.


Because the DSM V came out in 2013 and because medical practice is hard to change... Old practitioners studied with the DSM IV and some with the DSM III. They don't necessarily go back to med school to re-study the new updated criteria all over again.

It's like anything in life, people prefer using the tools they're used to. All I said is that presently (and moving forward) Asperger will no longer be considered a valid diagnosis. Which, again, I strongly disagree with...


----------



## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

I am so old I remember people having trouble adjusting to the DSM III.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Professionally, I have some knowledge on the subject. Gouldanian is correct that Asperger's as a diagnosis was eliminated from the 2013 DSM-5 wherein that 'syndrome' is now a part of the broader Autism category and would now correspond (generally speaking) to higher functioning on an Autism severity scale. There was more than one reason for the change, but one was that it simplified the process of classifying the diagnosis ie. if Asperger's really was high-functioning autism, then why was it being given a distinct diagnosis separate from autism.

However, while that worked for physicians making and classifying the diagnosis, it caused other problems in the non-medical community. Particularly, Asperger's had become fairly well known as a diagnosis that meant that the person had some behavior that was at times unusual, but the person could often function reasonably well in society. Thus, it did not carry with it the implications of the more serious 'full' autism diagnosis. This made it easier for the patient and associated families. IMO, that is why the term, Asperger's will continue to be used by the public and even by some physicians for some time to come.

I agree with Gouldanian that it will be almost impossible to ever be sure of a correct diagnosis for Glenn Gould other than the fact that he had, at the very least, a fairly severe Obsessive-Compulsive disorder. In some respects, his brilliance on the one hand and the nature of his overall 'disorders' on the other, reminds me of (the very late) Howard Hughes.

As a fairly young kid, I actually saw one of Glenn Gould's last performances (in Canada). He walked in with the proverbial warm clothing, scarf and gloves and sat very low at the piano. That's all I really remember. One thing that should be mentioned is that GG even after he stopped performing gave, sometimes televised, very eloquent music-related 'tutorials' or took part in discussions. On hearing these, if you didn't know otherwise, you would have thought that he was a normal and extremely intelligent person. Well, he was brilliant and likely, in some respects, a genius...


----------



## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

So, Gould's douche bag personality was a symptom of Autism?


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Morimur said:


> So, Gould's douche bag personality was a symptom of Autism?


Aspergers syndrom have been considered within the autism spectrum all the time high functioning autism and Aspergers syndrom is more or less the same.
For Glenn Gould it is impossible to say since he never was diagnosed in his lifetime.
DSM is by the way not a universal law book for diagnoses.

Glenn Gould was by the way related to Edward Grieg.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I always enjoyed Gould's sense of humor. He loved to skewer the pretentions of the "classical music" community and did so with deadly accuracy -- and I'm not just talking about Karlheinz Klopweisser!


----------



## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Is there any relationship between autism and psychopathy?


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I have wondered if GG's performances of Mozart sonatas were intended to 'skewer' idol-worshiping "Mozartians" rather than the composer. There are a few recordings by Mustonen of those sonatas that raise similar suspicions.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DaveM said:


> Professionally, I have some knowledge on the subject. Gouldanian is correct that Asperger's as a diagnosis was eliminated from the 2013 DSM-5 wherein that 'syndrome' is now a part of the broader Autism category and would now correspond (generally speaking) to higher functioning on an Autism severity scale. There was more than one reason for the change, but one was that it simplified the process of classifying the diagnosis ie. if Asperger's really was high-functioning autism, then why was it being given a distinct diagnosis separate from autism.
> 
> However, while that worked for physicians making and classifying the diagnosis, it caused other problems in the non-medical community. Particularly, Asperger's had become fairly well known as a diagnosis that meant that the person had some behavior that was at times unusual, but the person could often function reasonably well in society. Thus, it did not carry with it the implications of the more serious 'full' autism diagnosis. This made it easier for the patient and associated families. IMO, that is why the term, Asperger's will continue to be used by the public and even by some physicians for some time to come.
> 
> ...


The problem with these lectures Gould undertook was that he was not that good a communicator in the way (say) Bernstein was. He was, of course, extremely knowledgable himself, but couldn't get down to the level of his audience and would tend to lose all but the most knowledgeable. These poor folks had the agony of having to sit through his lecture (of which they understood little) when they were aching to hear him what he could do well - play. He was giving a lecture and played a small excerpt for the audience on the piano and they all applauded and shouted, "More!" They didn't want the lecture but they did want his pianism. One part of his problem, I guess, is that he had little awareness of others. Like he couldn't understand that normal people do not want to be rung up in the middle of the night to have a whole opera sung to them!


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Wood said:


> Is there any relationship between autism and psychopathy?


No but I have met one person with Aspergers who also had antisocial personality disorder.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Somebody needs to compile Gould's gotcha's. On Beethoven: "He is one composer whose reputation is based entirely on gossip."


----------



## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

Morimur said:


> So, Gould's *douche bag personality* was a symptom of Autism?


Take... it... back!


----------



## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

DaveM said:


> As a fairly young kid, I actually saw one of Glenn Gould's last performances (in Canada). He walked in with the proverbial warm clothing, scarf and gloves and sat very low at the piano. That's all I really remember. One thing that should be mentioned is that GG even after he stopped performing gave, sometimes televised, very eloquent music-related 'tutorials' or took part in discussions. On hearing these, if you didn't know otherwise, you would have thought that he was a normal and extremely intelligent person.


The things I wouldn't give to witness a GG performance live...

Thanks for sharing your experience and your views on the matter. I too enjoy the music tutorials he gave and find them very eloquent, even if sometimes a little hard to follow.


----------



## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

Ukko said:


> I have wondered if GG's performances of Mozart sonatas were intended to 'skewer' idol-worshiping "Mozartians" rather than the composer. There are a few recordings by Mustonen of those sonatas that raise similar suspicions.


GG believed that if you couldn't play a piece differently why play it at all? To give the public yet another similar take on a classic piece that has been played the same for centuries? If so, don't. Let the people purchase the other recordings that sound exactly the same as your performance would sound like.

He believed in one's own interpretation of any piece, therefore a wide variety of interpretations which would allow a broader range of people to connect with the piece (e.g. you hate his take on Mozart, I like it, if it weren't for GG I wouldn't have connected with certain sonatas and if it weren't for other pianists _you_ wouldn't have connected with those pieces, and look now, we're both enjoying the same pieces performed differently).

This right here is a perfect example:


----------



## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

KenOC said:


> I always enjoyed Gould's sense of humor. He loved to skewer the pretentions of the "classical music" community and did so with deadly accuracy -- and I'm not just talking about Karlheinz Klopweisser!


KenOC you might enjoy this one too... (the humour and the Godfather theme at the end):


----------



## PJaye (May 22, 2015)

I don’t think Glenn Gould ‘had’ anything except a case of being Glenn Gould. Trying to define, or label a person and the multitude of influential factors involved in what makes them who they are under a diagnosis seems to me misguided. As long as we aren’t causing harm to others, we have the inherent and absolute right to become all that we are on our own terms with whatever conscious choices, or quirks of personality that entails without being told we are pre-disposed or bound to any disease or condition. I think the field of psychology offered some brilliant and beautiful insights, but it often ascribed them to a tome of conditions and diseases, rather than as being dependent on the process of our intuitive and creative transitory nature. I believe we can change our minds -and so the resulting chemical changes in the brain- our minds don’t change us. I just wanted to give another perspective on the analytical theories sometimes put out there about Gould, and as a precursor to saying, I’ve always found Glen Gould to be a sweet, intelligent guy with a great sense of humor, who had the guts to think for himself. Normal? God no. I hope I’m not either –but then again, I don’t think anyone should be. We are all too unique to be contained by that word except in terms of our shared common humanity,


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

PJaye said:


> I don't think Glenn Gould 'had' anything except a case of being Glenn Gould.
> 
> Trying to define, or label a person and the multitude of influential factors involved in what makes them who they are under a diagnosis seems to me misguided. As long as we aren't causing harm to others, we have the inherent and absolute right to become all that we are on our own terms with whatever conscious choices, or quirks of personality that entails without being told we are pre-disposed or bound to any disease or condition.
> 
> ...


I get your points, but some of them appear to assume some sort of judgement about Glenn Gould. GG was a unique individual who impacted a lot of lives including his many followers and listeners as well those more close to him. He was, for the most part, able to be all he wanted to be and he made his own decisions -such as leaving public performing- without being manipulated or influenced by others.

Individuals with tremendous gifts and intelligence, but saddled with mental aberrations have always confused and frustrated those who are moved by their accomplishments. IMO, rather than being a misguided endeavor, there is value in trying to understand the various mental conditions that might have afflicted an individual such as GG not because we are somehow defining him by those disorders, but because it may give us some insight into the complex makeup of one form of the genius mind. Also, IMO, the more we understand conditions such as the autism spectrum the more likely they will have less of a stigma and more efforts will be made to find cures for them.

Btw, while there may be some situations where we can '_change our minds and so chemical changes in our brains_' that premise -at least so far with our present knowledge- cannot be universally applied to all mental conditions, particularly the more severe ones.


----------



## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

In my own opinion, Glen Gould had no real sign of autism at all. He was probably haunted by some psychotic thoughts, that could be classified as obsesive-compulsive...his hot/cold problems, chair usage...hyper sensitivity, even some interpretations...but he was almost close to normal most of the time. Still with all his medical problems he was amazing...


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

sabrina said:


> In my own opinion, Glen Gould had no real sign of autism at all. He was probably haunted by some psychotic thoughts, that could be classified as obsesive-compulsive...his hot/cold problems, chair usage...hyper sensitivity, even some interpretations...but he was almost close to normal most of the time. Still with all his medical problems he was amazing...


You do know people with Aspergers syndrom are normal?


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Sloe said:


> You do know people with Aspergers syndrom are normal?


God knows what 'normal' is. GG was certainly not 'average', and I'm pretty sure we don't know how Asperger's syndrome (if that's what he had) contributed to his genius; but genius he was. Most geniuses who aren't polymaths exhibit some hitches in their mental giddyup, sometimes in pretty basic stuff. I've lived long enough to know a few 'non-polymath' geniuses.


----------



## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

Sloe said:


> You do know people with Aspergers syndrom are normal?


In Sabrina's defence, the notion of "normality'' (mental health) is subject of many theses and debates in the psychiatric sphere.

Is mental health the mere absence of pathology? Is it being in the average mental level of the general population? Is it being able to be fully functional in society? Is it related to the level of one's genius? By which of these measures do you assess it?

If an Asperger is a happy person, who's married to a loving person, is a good partner, a good parent, a good worker, competent, socially pleasant, enjoys many hobbies and is generally fulfilled then by God let me that person with Asperger's syndrome because he or she is more normal than most people I know.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Sloe said:


> You do know people with Aspergers syndrom are normal?


I'll chime in also, because general statements like that can mislead. Aspergers is placed on the autism spectrum for a reason. If it was, across the board, accepted as 'normal' that wouldn't be true. It is not unusual that people with high-functioning autism view themselves has having to live with a condition that can be challenging and that they don't even view as 'normal' because, for one thing, they are aware that people don't seem to respond to them the way they do to others.

I think it's better to look at Aspergers as a condition whereby if the person is able to come to some understanding of it and cooperate with the health-care team, he/she can often lead fairly normal lives. Of course, as mentioned just above, in some situations they are blessed with above-average talents which can make their lives more rewarding than so-called 'normal' people.


----------



## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

Sloe said:


> You do know people with Aspergers syndrom are normal?


Asperger syndrome, now included under autism umbrella is one o the mildest forms of autism. Asperger syndrome appears more frequent in males, and those affected are quite well integrated in our society, some are even married, but they have a different way of seeing the world and express less affection to the people they are close to, family and the few friends they might have. Social integration is definitely impaired.
But as I started the other post, I don't think Glen had Asperger/autism though he had some psychiatric problems. 
And normal has such a broad meaning. I think most of us have small issues, not necessarily a disease or syndrome. Forms/grades of anxiety are among the most common things.

PS: and about normal...what can I say, even many forms of schizophrenia have periods of remission, when patients could act quite normally and look like a healthy person, but unfortunately they are not. It is true autism is a different type of disease.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

sabrina said:


> Asperger syndrome, now included under autism umbrella is one o the mildest forms of autism. Asperger syndrome appears more frequent in males, and those affected are quite well integrated in our society, some are even married, but they have a different way of seeing the world and express less affection to the people they are close to, family and the few friends they might have. Social integration is definitely impaired.
> But as I started the other post, I don't think Glen had Asperger/autism though he had some psychiatric problems.
> And normal has such a broad meaning. I think most of us have small issues, not necessarily a disease or syndrome. Forms/grades of anxiety are among the most common things.
> 
> PS: and about normal...what can I say, even many forms of schizophrenia have periods of remission, when patients could act quite normally and look like agt healthy person, but unfortunately they are not. It is true autism is a different type of disease.


When you have to suffer more than enough you do not deserve to be indirectly called a freak. Your statement that Glenn Gould appearing normal is outright offensive. And I see no need for such speculations about Glenn Gould or any other dead celebrity wether you believe it or dismiss it.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Sloe said:


> When you have to suffer more than enough you do not deserve to be indirectly called a freak. Your statement that Glenn Gould appearing normal is outright offensive. And I see no need for such speculations about Glenn Gould or any other dead celebrity wether you believe it or dismiss it.


Would it have been acceptable if Sabrina had said 'neurotypical' instead of 'normal'? I have read that it is the word used among people with Asperger's or autism to describe those who do not have Asperger's or autism. 'Neurotypical' would appear to have a similar meaning to Sabrina's 'normal' in the context of this discussion, without potentially offending people with Asperger's by implying that they are, by definition, abnormal.


----------



## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

According to his girlfriend and other friends, Glenn had some paranoid delusions, fantasizing that he was going to be poisoned. I also know he took medication for his injuries, and also medication for the side effects of other drugs...that must have done him some damage.
Other than that he was amazing. I loved his personality, as flawed as he was. He was charming, had a wonderful skill for jokes. He was also a nice looking guy. It's a pity he was hindered by nasty thoughts. This make your life miserable. He left us his genius. His Bach recordings are second to none. I didn't like his Mozart or Beethoven but bits and pieces from other composers are still amazing. It's a pity he kept humming through his playing. As for pianists I prefer Michelangeli or Radu Lupu...But I love Glenn Gould as a whole.
I am so sad I didn't have the chance to meet him live.


----------



## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

sabrina said:


> I am so sad I didn't have the chance to meet him live.


Well Sabrina, that makes two of us...


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sabrina said:


> According to his girlfriend and other friends, *Glenn had some paranoid delusions*, fantasizing that he was going to be poisoned. I also know he took medication for his injuries, and also medication for the side effects of other drugs...that must have done him some damage.
> Other than that he was amazing. I loved his personality, as flawed as he was. He was charming, had a wonderful skill for jokes. He was also a nice looking guy. It's a pity he was hindered by nasty thoughts. This make your life miserable. He left us his genius. His Bach recordings are second to none. I didn't like his Mozart or Beethoven but bits and pieces from other composers are still amazing. It's a pity he kept humming through his playing. As for pianists I prefer Michelangeli or Radu Lupu...But I love Glenn Gould as a whole.
> I am so sad I didn't have the chance to meet him live.


His paranoia included putting the phone down if the person on the other end sneezed in case he caught a cold down the phone. A friend once asked him why he had got rid of a certain cabinet to which he replied: "It kept staring at me!" He was charming but he could not take any form of disagreement. When his producer questioned one of his recordings GG promptly dropped him. There was no row but GG just withdrew as he couldn't handle any form of conflict or contradiction. And of course his obsessive drug taking probably led to his early death. But he did leave those recordings!
A good book to read on GG is "Wondrous Strange" by Kevin Bazanna.


----------



## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

DavidA said:


> His paranoia included putting the phone down if the person on the other end sneezed in case he caught a cold down the phone. A friend once asked him why he had got rid of a certain cabinet to which he replied: "It kept staring at me!" He was charming but he could not take any form of disagreement. When his producer questioned one of his recordings GG promptly dropped him. There was no row but GG just withdrew as he couldn't handle any form of conflict or contradiction. And of course his obsessive drug taking probably led to his early death. But he did leave those recordings!
> A good book to read on GG is "Wondrous Strange" by Kevin Bazanna.


What led to his death is a stroke, and whether it was an ischemic or an hemorrhagique one it was most probably caused by two conditions he was known to have: 1- hypertension (he kept a diary regarding his daily measurements, he was paranoid about it) and 2- dyslipidemia (he only ate scrambled eggs all of his life). These conditions are two of the main risk factors for strokes.

So if we can't be sure about the psychiatric diagnosis, we can be a little more about the cause of his death. Perhaps his medication had something to do with it, but for a 50 year old man I'll blame hypertension and dyslipidemia first.


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The notion that there is some universally valid standard of "normality" and that everyone who deviates from it even slightly by some quirky habits or weird thoughts has a mental illness/disorder is certainly a dangerous one. We would probably have very little art left if everyone fit into the "normal" image.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Gouldanian said:


> What led to his death is a stroke, and whether it was an ischemic or an hemorrhagique one it was most probably caused by two conditions he was known to have: 1- hypertension (he kept a diary regarding his daily measurements, he was paranoid about it) and 2- dyslipidemia (he only ate scrambled eggs all of his life). These conditions are two of the main risk factors for strokes.
> 
> So if we can't be sure about the psychiatric diagnosis, we can be a little more about the cause of his death. Perhaps his medication had something to do with it, but for a 50 year old man I'll blame hypertension and dyslipidemia first.


Mind you taking enough pills to drop a horse probably didn't help!


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Those interested in Glen Gould should get the Glenn Gould Reader, a large collection of writings of interest and quite a few horselaughs. Cheap used.

http://www.amazon.com/Glenn-Gould-Reader-Tim-Page/dp/0679731350/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449042324&sr=1-1&keywords=glenn+gould+reader


----------



## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

Gouldanian said:


> What led to his death is a stroke, and whether it was an ischemic or an hemorrhagique one it was most probably caused by two conditions he was known to have: 1- hypertension (he kept a diary regarding his daily measurements, he was paranoid about it) and 2- dyslipidemia (he only ate scrambled eggs all of his life). These conditions are two of the main risk factors for strokes.


Of course, life style and medication could both produce enough damage. I can't be sure, but his unfortunate stroke must have been hemorrhagic, as at his age and condition, this is the main risk. Hemorrhagic strokes could kill in hours, and this was what happened to Glenn. Ischemic strokes are milder on the short run...That's not important anymore, but his mental state surely didn't help him at all. Eating only scrambled eggs at that restaurant, OMG. I wonder how parents and friends could influence him for a healthier life style. His drug abuse also was so wrong.
What a pity! Poor Glenn, life of a genius.


----------



## cellacan (Mar 21, 2017)

Hi Gouldanian
I'm researching Glenn Gould for a dissertation, and you seem to be a veritable authority! I would love to consult some of your sources — would you be able/willing to point me in the right direction? I'd be happy to discuss the project in more detail if you'd be interested.
Many thanks and best wishes
cellacan


----------



## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

cellacan said:


> Hi Gouldanian
> I'm researching Glenn Gould for a dissertation, and you seem to be a veritable authority! I would love to consult some of your sources - would you be able/willing to point me in the right direction? I'd be happy to discuss the project in more detail if you'd be interested.
> Many thanks and best wishes
> cellacan


Gouldanian's last activity on TC was in December 2016, cellacan, so he may or may not see / respond to your post.

TurnaboutVox
Moderator


----------



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I am from the UK and on the spectrum. My official diagnosis is Asperger's Syndrome moderate to severe. Medics use the ICD 10 last time I looked and Asperger's is still the correct terminology. Anything sociable is difficult along with nasty heightened senses but I thank the condition for giving me an interest in classical music. I also have bipolar.


----------



## Capeditiea (Feb 23, 2018)

I was diagnosed with aspies about a decade ago... 
also schyzotypal, bipolar, and adhd. 

(i was unable to watch the video...) but this post has led me to listen to some Glenn Gould... after reading a little on him. :O wow, first Sorabji, then Gould... who will i learn about next. :O


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

It has long been theorized that Bartok had what was then called Asperger's. Two other artists whose presence on the autism spectrum I have suspected are M.C. Escher and Stanley Kubrick.


----------



## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

Mark, do you have a source on that (concerning Bartók)?


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Casebearer said:


> Mark, do you have a source on that (concerning Bartók)?


Not off the top of my head, but I remember reading/hearing it more than couple of times over the years -- including from my personal neurologist.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Capeditiea said:


> I was diagnosed with aspies about a decade ago...
> also schyzotypal, bipolar, and adhd.
> 
> (i was unable to watch the video...) but this post has led me to listen to some Glenn Gould... after reading a little on him. :O wow, first Sorabji, then Gould... who will i learn about next. :O


Stay long enough with us and you will find out.


----------



## Capeditiea (Feb 23, 2018)

Pugg said:


> Stay long enough with us and you will find out.


*nods, 
but not only that, i will end up having to delete a bunch of my less watched anime to make enough space for the other composers too... :O and i have a 2tb external harddrive.


----------



## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Gouldanian said:


> Thanks for sharing this.
> 
> As a fan of GG and a med student (psychiatry being one of the studied fields), I spent a considerable amount of time trying to figure out what he could have had. In addition to my own analysis, I read several opinions of expert who provided their take on the matter.
> 
> ...


Without getting into too many details, I have a friend who is a long time friend of the Foss family, and can confirm that whatever the precise nature of his psychiatric condition or diagnosis, Glenn Gould did suffer from increasingly apparent mental health issues that made him much more difficult to deal with as he got older. That does not mean he wasn't a brilliant, charming and entirely rational person to the end of his life, at least when he was at his best. And these mental health issues should not be confused with his famous "eccentricity", which involved some unusual but not wholly irrational lifestyle choices, a genuine but often overlooked talent for showmanship, and of course genuine musical insight.


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

My son had great difficulty socializing in school, sometimes acting out violently. He was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, back when it still existed. My ex-wife took it upon herself to research everything known about the subject at the time, and became a stubborn advocate to find him the right school and the right medication. He's now a college graduate with a job, a circle of friends, a girlfriend, and a life pretty much unimpeded by his atypical mental wiring.

It's all a spectrum. For instance, my ex-wife and I agree that I myself am about one-third Aspergian. Yes, I have A@# Syndrome.


----------



## Capeditiea (Feb 23, 2018)

amfortas said:


> My son had great difficulty socializing in school, sometimes acting out violently. He was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, back when it still existed. My ex-wife took it upon herself to research everything known about the subject at the time, and became a stubborn advocate to find him the right school and the right medication. He's now a college graduate with a job, a circle of friends, a girlfriend, and a life pretty much unimpeded by his atypical mental wiring.
> 
> It's all a spectrum. For instance, my ex-wife and I agree that I myself am about one-third Aspergian. Yes, I have A@# Syndrome.


A** boogers. 

but yeah, i always think of it as a thing to call kids who are basically rebelious or have grown to dislike their classmates due to being bullied. 
Which then we are put on these pills that turn us into zombies and we reluctantly take them... and suddenly before we know it we start to become more influencial with other peoples opinions of us... we then get depressed and later shut our selves in our rooms and work obsessively on what we love the most where everything else is not important even life it's self.

which then some of us grow out of this rebelious phase in our lives and secretly live in the shadows with a delusional mind... and suddenly we become world renowned in the field that we happen to have gained an obsession about... usually by accident. Then after a while the ones who have ended up diagnosing us with aspergers are all inclined to reanalyze their situations.

My obsessions went like this
Psychology (2001-2009)
Sociology (2003-2014)
Anime (2012-present) 
Music (1998-present) 
Cute animals (full life minus the time i was meds... i ended up ignoring them...) 
Martial Arts (2004-2007)
My self (2010-2017)
Traveling the world (1986BCE-2013CE) 
Time Travel (unknown time source...and duration)
Occult Practices (1998-present) 
Discordianism (2010-present)
making obscure lists and stories that are actually true. (2009-present.)


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Capeditiea said:


> but yeah, i always think of it as a thing to call kids who are basically rebelious or have grown to dislike their classmates due to being bullied.
> Which then we are put on these pills that turn us into zombies and we reluctantly take them... and suddenly before we know it we start to become more influencial with other peoples opinions of us... we then get depressed and later shut our selves in our rooms and work obsessively on what we love the most where everything else is not important even life it's self.


Wasn't what I was getting at in my post, but we've each had our own experiences.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I think the whole field of psychiatry is suspect. The brain is very complicated, and it is plastic, so it can't be pinned down as to what is 'normal.' BTW, I am not a Scientologist, but I agree with them on this.

The brain, being plastic, is shaped by cognitive experience, and can be changed by it as well. 

The psychiatric drugs which are used are not fully understood as to why they work; they just try them and observe. An example is the drug Depakote, which was used to treat epilepsy. It "smoothes out" brain waves which cause seizures, and thus is used to "smooth out" mood swings of so-called bipolar disorder. It was a shot in the dark which produced desired results. Ever seen a person with "flat affect?" They act like zombies, with very little excitement or emotion. Depakote is a mineral salt, related to lithium.

Risperdal, a so-called "anti-psychotic" drug (actually just targeted tranquilizers), can cause "tardive dyskinesia" if taken for long periods. The term "tardive" is derived from the same root used in "retarded." Its targeted dialing of the brain also unfortunately has the shotgun effect of disabling that part of the brain which controls involuntary movement. Thus, the 'tics" begin.

Psychiatry itself has changed over the decades from a sort of inner-experience based pseudo-religion (Freud, Jung) into a pseudo-science based on observation of external behavior (Pavlov, B.F. Skinner, behaviorism) which yields "data."

There are biases in civilized culture; what is "normal" may just be an arbitrary preference for what works best in a society which values efficiency and consistency over artist fancy. 

I'm glad Glenn Gould was exactly the way he was, flaws and all, and that there are differences in the way brains are cognitively wired; otherwise, we could all be accountants.


----------



## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Beware the diagnosis of historical figures... I watched a documentary about Bach where John Eliot Gardiner, on the intelligence of a few of Bach's letters and some comments made about him in his lifetime, went to a psychology professor and she just threw the label 'paranoid schizophrenia' at him, an instant diagnosis. Her basis was the fact that it seemed to be a trend in his life that he thought: 1) the world was against him (which it was a lot of the time), 2) that people were always getting in his way (which they were), and 3) that he was always blaming the petty civil servants and church officials trying to censor him and restrict him (which they did, and all the time). As an acute observer in the comments noted, Bach's only 'condition' was 'being a musical genius in 18th century Germany'.


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Tallisman said:


> Beware the diagnosis of historical figures... I watched a documentary about Bach where John Eliot Gardiner, on the intelligence of a few of Bach's letters and some comments made about him in his lifetime, went to a psychology professor and she just threw the label 'paranoid schizophrenia' at him, an instant diagnosis. Her basis was the fact that it seemed to be a trend in his life that he thought: 1) the world was against him (which it was a lot of the time), 2) that people were always getting in his way (which they were), and 3) that he was always blaming the petty civil servants and church officials trying to censor him and restrict him (which they did, and all the time). As an acute observer in the comments noted, Bach's only 'condition' was 'being a musical genius in 18th century Germany'.


Just because they're all out to get you doesn't mean you're not paranoid.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

amfortas said:


> Just because they're all out to get you doesn't mean you're not paranoid.


Actually, this old joke is revealing. "They" is society, and paranoia is caused by the fear of being 'an outsider' and social maladjustment.
Most of these mental aberrations are caused by alienation, a feeling of being "exiled" from humanity, usually due to some kind of abuse. It can all be solved cognitively.

The healthy paradigm is: 
(1) I belong. 
(2) I am worthy.
(3) I have something valuable to contribute.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tallisman said:


> Beware the diagnosis of historical figures... I watched a documentary about Bach where John Eliot Gardiner, on the intelligence of a few of Bach's letters and some comments made about him in his lifetime, went to a psychology professor and she just threw the label 'paranoid schizophrenia' at him, an instant diagnosis. Her basis was the fact that it seemed to be a trend in his life that he thought: 1) the world was against him (which it was a lot of the time), 2) that people were always getting in his way (which they were), and 3) that he was always blaming the petty civil servants and church officials trying to censor him and restrict him (which they did, and all the time). As an acute observer in the comments noted, Bach's only 'condition' was 'being a musical genius in 18th century Germany'.


Yes I saw the programme which was spoiled by the ridiculous psychologist who obviously wanted to make a name for herself. I have heard the ridiculous notion that Mozart suffered from Aspergers based on certain rhythms of his music. There are unfortunately, people who want to make a name for themselves and this is the way they do it. I think m,any people of genius might be termed as 'odd' as the intelligence factor has gone into one particular area. But this does not mean to say they suffer a mental disorder unless there are other factors.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> I think the whole field of psychiatry is suspect. The brain is very complicated, and it is plastic, so it can't be pinned down as to what is 'normal.' BTW, I am not a Scientologist, but I agree with them on this.
> 
> The brain, being plastic, is shaped by cognitive experience, and can be changed by it as well.
> 
> ...


The whole field of psychiatry is suspect? Are you an expert on psychiatry? Every so often on this forum someone slams psychiatric treatment with anecdotes. Ever seen someone totally mentally out of control and then see them a few weeks later when they are stabilized with medication and able to function normally or close to normally?

Focusing on side effects without mentioning the benefits of drugs is misleading to people who may be helped by them.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DaveM said:


> The whole field of psychiatry is suspect? Are you an expert on psychiatry? Every so often on this forum someone slams psychiatric treatment with anecdotes. Ever seen someone totally mentally out of control and then see them a few weeks later when they are stabilized with medication and able to function normally or close to normally?
> 
> *Focusing on side effects without mentioning the benefits of drugs is misleading to people who may be helped by them.*


Quite right. I have known people to be helped by anti-psychotic drugs when treated properly. Of course, as with any drugs, there are side effects and pay-offs. But this doesn't render it suspect in itself. What is suspect is doctors prescribing such drugs without a thorough investigation i=of the symptoms. Gould of course basically prescribed his own drugs and took enough to drop a horse. Hence his death at 50. Similarly Elvis Presley, whose doctor was struck off for over-prescribing.


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> The healthy paradigm is:
> (1) I belong.
> (2) I am worthy.
> (3) I have something valuable to contribute.


I'm good enough,
I'm smart enough,
and doggone it, people like me.


----------



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

This thread has gone off topic. One post has been removed and so have any others quoting it.

The thread is temporarily closed while we decide what to do.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thread re-opened. Please stick to music and try to be poilte.


----------



## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

amfortas said:


> Just because they're all out to get you doesn't mean you're not paranoid.


Indeed. Just as Lacan said: just because a jealous husband's suspicions about his wife turn out to be true, doesn't make his jealousy/suspicion any less pathological. My problem was the _speed _of the posthumous diagnosis based on letters whose foundation was actually in reality. You would need a more nuanced (and simply more informed) view of Bach's personality in order to say that his paranoia was _still_ pathological, not just based on letters and comments whose origin (one might say 'emotional provenance') we don't know.


----------



## drnlaw (Jan 27, 2016)

Sloe said:


> * * * DSM is by the way not a universal law book for diagnoses.


Except, heh-heh, for lawyers and judges . . .


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Tallisman said:


> Indeed. Just as Lacan said: just because a jealous husband's suspicions about his wife turn out to be true, doesn't make his jealousy/suspicion any less pathological. My problem was the _speed _of the posthumous diagnosis based on letters whose foundation was actually in reality. You would need a more nuanced (and simply more informed) view of Bach's personality in order to say that his paranoia was _still_ pathological, not just based on letters and comments whose origin (one might say 'emotional provenance') we don't know.


Well if you're going to cite Lacan at me, how can I be anything but disarmed? Foiled again!


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

drnlaw said:


> Except, heh-heh, for lawyers and judges . . .


Since then do lawyers and judges make diagnoses?


----------



## Capeditiea (Feb 23, 2018)

Sigh, so the most definative post on how folk with aspies think... was deleted... 
o well...


----------



## drnlaw (Jan 27, 2016)

Sloe said:


> Since then do lawyers and judges make diagnoses?


Nah, we hire real doctors for that -- who then cite to the DSM-latest, knowing that judges treat it as a universal law book for diagnoses.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

drnlaw said:


> Nah, we hire real doctors for that -- who then cite to the DSM-latest, knowing that judges treat it as a universal law book for diagnoses.


And we hire real lawyers to bribe those doctors and judges, the basis of a recent fraud in Kentucky that cost the federal government $550 million. All concerned now have the opportunity to repent their sins, something they will have a lot of time to do.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

DaveM said:


> The whole field of psychiatry is suspect? Are you an expert on psychiatry? Every so often on this forum someone slams psychiatric treatment with anecdotes. Ever seen someone totally mentally out of control and then see them a few weeks later when they are stabilized with medication and able to function normally or close to normally?
> 
> Focusing on side effects without mentioning the benefits of drugs is misleading to people who may be helped by them.


Your post is not as long as mine, nor does it contain any back-up information like mine did. Side effects like tardive disikinesia are real dangers.

Also, Risperdal is implicated in class action lawsuits as causing male breast-growth.

Do you have any useful information or facts which bolster your argument? I doubt it.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Your post is not as long as mine, nor does it contain any back-up information like mine did. Side effects like tardive disikinesia are real dangers.
> 
> Also, Risperdal is implicated in class action lawsuits as causing male breast-growth.
> 
> Do you have any useful information or facts which bolster your argument? I doubt it.


I didn't say there weren't potential serious side effects to drugs particularly those for neurologic or psychiatric disorders. My point was that just listing a bunch of side effects without mentioning benefits creates the false impression that none of these drugs is worthwhile.


----------



## Montarsolo (5 mo ago)

I'm reading a book about Alma Mahler. It also talks about her difficult marriage with Mahler. I read that and thought: Mahler had an autistic spectrum disorder. The author does not mention that or hint at it. But the description of how Mahler acts, communicates etc. points to autism (I totally recognized a friend in it). I searched on Google and see that Mahler appears several times on lists of famous people with Asperger.

Overrepresented in classical music I think. Would be surprised if I don't have it. As an ironic family doctor once said: Bach is for autists. 

But as someone once said, take a random group of people who are successful and happy and examine them. The doctors will always come with a disorder and with medicines.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

When I grew up in the 1980s "autism" meant severely disabled children/people who could barely communicate and needed constant care or institutionalization. 

It did not mean a vague and broad "spectrum" where almost any slightly spleeny and/or introvert person was "on the autism spectrum". I am not going through this whole thread but just a cursory glance at the last 150 years of psychology and psychiatry (or only 60 years, that's how far we are from electoshocks and lobotomy... this should be enough to be not too certain about what we diagnose or treat now, but underline twice "first of all, do no harm") should anyone make highly suspicious both at classifying more and more types of behavior as pathological (I am not going into the corresponding de-pathologization of other types of what seemed obviously problematic deviant behavior until a few decades ago). And even more suspicious of posthumuous psychiatric diagnoses of famous artists.

I recall that a guy I was acquainted with almost 20 years ago and who was a rabid Gould fan, claimed that Gould must have had a sense of polyphony instead of a sex drive (or sth. like that). I am pretty sure I also heard the claim that he was closeted gay.
Only a few years later it turned out that Gould had a long going affair, even living together for a few years with Lukas Foss' (separated) wife, Cornelia. So he apparently was a fairly normal heterosexual, regardless of his other behavior, a lot of which was admittedly quite odd (but he also cultivated this persona).


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Glenn Gould on Animals


----------

