# The Most Objectionable Piece That I've Encountered



## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

Iannis Xenakis “String Quartets” for me so far.

Yes, all four of them. (Not that I could tell the difference.) The most abrasive work that I’ve ever tried to appreciate - despite my best instinct telling me not to waste time on this. Not a redeeming value found as a result, except that some of these intentionally counter-intuitively organized, and often difficult to describe other than nasty, musical sounds reminded me of Scelsi, whose selective works I happen to like very much.

So, what’s your epic failure?


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## toucan (Sep 27, 2010)

This is a thread that will produce animosity. I like that in a thread 

Not just an objectionable piece: the whole composer: John Adams, the splitting image of mediocrity - and the splitting sound of it too.

I was very offended when I first heard some Jazz Suites by Shostakovich. I thought someone who composed such utterly bad music could ever compose anything good while a good composer could never compose anything so bad.

Arvo Part's "Credo," the scandalous use and abuse of Bach, the exploitativeness of it and the demagoguery of it - and so badly performed by Helene Grimaud, too. I mean, the way she bangs on Bach, like an ungifted brat of an eight year old confusing her parent's piano with a trash-can lid: it's not just a crime against music, it's a crime against humanity and something to make pathological spousal abuse look like a petty misdemeanor.

Want more? You sure?


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

toucan said:


> This is a thread that will produce animosity.


Well, it's not like a discussion board can be hurt by a heated debate... 



toucan said:


> Want more? You sure?


I'm listening.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili (Jan 26, 2010)

What's this ones called? Concerto for the 3 eyed squirrel and the ragged hamster?


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Serge said:


> The most abrasive work that I've ever tried to appreciate....


You should get out more!


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

(edited........)


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Serge, try anything by Helmut Lachenmann. I'm sure you'll hate it.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Saul_Dzorelashvili said:


> What's this ones called? Concerto for the 3 eyed squirrel and the ragged hamster?


I have to admit, that's pretty nasty. I can't pick out a single recurring motif in that arrhythmic jumble. Maybe with repeated listens, but why bother?

But the question was what is the most objectionable. I didn't find the Xenakis objectionable. Probably for me the most objectionable would be some kind of noisecore. This is one of the more palatable examples:





I also can't stand it when some illiterate loudmouth talks through a perfectly good groove. Rap can dry up and disappear immediately as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather hear the sound of my own brains being scooped out by zombie with gangrened fingers.

If you are talking about classical, Crumb's Black Angels is pretty hideous, but then I think it's supposed to be. I'm intrigued by the piece even if it's objectionable.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I actually like Xenakis a lot, but that won't be a surprise to many people here.

The only music I find "objectionable" are pieces where the composer is writing to satisfy the lowest common denominator. Something like Ferde Grofe's _Grand Canyon Suite_. Even top notch conductors like Bernstein or Morton Gould couldn't wring an ounce of emotion out of it. I think it's cliched in the extreme. I'd rather something put me out of my comfort zone rather than treat me like a moron who has to be spoonfed music that is akin to baby food mush.

Ok rant over...


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

I've only come across one piece of music that actually causes physical pain. I literally can't listen to this for more than a few minutes without getting a headache. And yes, it is Xenakis.





I run hot and cold on Xenakis. I like Metastasis and Pithopratka. I didn't care for Eonta. I just gave ST4 a listen to see what the OP was referring to, and it didn't appeal to me either, but I didn't find it horrible.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I haven't listened to enough by Xenakis to form much of an opinion one way or another. A few works that I have heard on YouTube or elsewhere intrigued... others not. I actually like George Crumb's _Black Angels_... and other works such as the _Songs, Drones, and Refrains of Death, Ancient Voices of Children_, etc... not than any of them is likely to supplant Bach... or Richard Strauss... in my personal echelon.

As for Groffe... I must say I haven't listened to this work enough (once or twice) to really form any opinion. I don't recall being moved too much one way of the other.

One epic let-down: Karl Jenkins! I made the mistake of purchasing one of his choral after a glowing critical review... thinking he was a serious choral composer. What I discovered was a sappy, New Age, "popera" that was sheer crap.

Other pieces that left me thinking WTF? Pretty much anything suggested by Some Guy. As close-minded as he portrays me and others here, I have taken the time to listen when and where I can find his "fringe" composers. I am always on the prowl for that new musical experience... unknown... that may grab me... and you never know where it might come from... so yes... I do give these suggestion a chance. But not once have my efforts been rewarded. One former member, now moved on (he was a bit abrasive admittedly) led me to several contemporary composers that I greatly admire.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)




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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

I don't think it's ever a good idea to judge musical works using Youtube. Youtube is a fantastic resource, but all Youtube videos have low sound quality, and some have _terrible_ sound quality. As a general rule, the ones with the most views are the worst. (For an example, compare this with this: 750,000 views vs. 800.)


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I agree with that 100 per cent, Webernite. & it often appears to me that some people tend to judge a composer's whole output based on listening to a 5 minute clip on youtube. Not a good idea, imo...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I haven't listened to enough by Xenakis to form much of an opinion one way or another. A few works that I have heard on YouTube or elsewhere intrigued... others not. I actually like George Crumb's _Black Angels_... and other works such as the _Songs, Drones, and Refrains of Death, Ancient Voices of Children_, etc... not than any of them is likely to supplant Bach... or Richard Strauss... in my personal echelon.


I don't know if it's very useful to compare music of around now with that of 100 or more years ago. I'm probably not as sophisticated as some listeners around here. I don't really have a "personal echelon" so to speak. I find it far more useful to take each composer on his/her own terms. I basically start with whether it engages me on some level or not. I often go to recitals where I haven't heard one note by any of the composers being performed before going. Sometimes I go to performances of classic works that I know quite well. It's hard to compare them, they both do things on different levels for me...



StlukesguildOhio said:


> As for Groffe... I must say I haven't listened to this work enough (once or twice) to really form any opinion. I don't recall being moved too much one way of the other.


Well maybe I was a bit hard on poor old Grofe ...he basically produced kitsch and there I go again, it's of no use to compare it to the more "serious" stuff. I've only heard his _Grand Canyon Suite _but he produced countless "sequels" based on different parts of America - _Niagara Falls Suite, Hudson River Suite, Mississipi Suite, Hollywood Suite, Death Valley Suite_, the list is endless. You name a place in the USA & the guy's written a suite about it!!! He was basically a one trick pony. He also orchestrated Gershwin's _Rhapsody in Blue_ and wrote his own _Piano Concerto_, which is an ok piece in some ways, has some good melodies, but it's hard to get hold of on disc...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Melodious light-classical music (Grofe, Ketelbey, and the likes) is not the same as kitsch. At least not for me.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Serge said:


> Iannis Xenakis "String Quartets" for me so far.
> 
> Yes, all four of them. (Not that I could tell the difference.) The most abrasive work that I've ever tried to appreciate - despite my best instinct telling me not to waste time on this. Not a redeeming value found as a result, except that some of these intentionally counter-intuitively organized, and often difficult to describe other than nasty, musical sounds reminded me of Scelsi, whose selective works I happen to like very much.
> 
> So, what's your epic failure?


:lol:

Good thread. Plenty of them. But I guess the one that captures it all very well indeed is the _Helikopter-Streichquartett_ (1995) by Karlheinz Stockhausen. An orgy of experimentalism & insanity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helikopter-Streichquartett


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Art Rock said:


> Melodious light-classical music (Grofe, Ketelbey, and the likes) is not the same as kitsch. At least not for me.


I actually like Ketelbey because he seemed to be a bit more experimental than Grofe. But again, that's just my taste...



HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Good thread. Plenty of them. But I guess the one that captures it all very well indeed is the _Helikopter-Streichquartett_ (1995) by Karlheinz Stockhausen. An orgy of experimentalism & insanity.


Well I think that Stockhausen's _Helicopter Quartet_ is a bit of a stunt & though I'm no expert, not his finest work. I heard it on radio once and it's not to my taste, even though I kind of strive to be as "flexible" as possible in these matters. Far more engaging are works like_ Tierkreis_, based on the 12 signs of the zodiac. I saw it live in a free concert here at Sydney's Conservatorium last year played by Ensemble Offspring, who do a lot of this kind of stuff. In that version, all manner of instruments were played - from piano, clarinets, percussion including cowbells, a music box, a mouth accordion, you name it. The version I have on disc is far more staid - for trumpet & organ. I would recommend this work as a starter for anyone getting into Stockhausen - it's quite an approachable work, for want of a better word.


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

some guy said:


> You should get out more!


Yes, I know, it's pretty rough out there. 

This is not the hairiest or the most horrendous piece that I've heard of course (let alone in existence), just the one that I, because of its traditional acoustic setup, made an effort of getting into. That wasn't meant to be, obviously.


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

Saul_Dzorelashvili said:


> What's this ones called? Concerto for the 3 eyed squirrel and the ragged hamster?


I actually like this... 

This, however, nearly caused a rupture of my tympanic membranes:


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## Suwannee Tim (Jun 6, 2010)

dmg said:


> I actually like this...
> 
> This, however, nearly caused a rupture of my tympanic membranes:


I liked them both.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Messiaen Oiseaux Exotiques: 



, because I suffered through it live. Its not the worst thing, but I'm NOT a fan, he's my scapegoat, especially Glances of the Baby Jesus.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Oh awesome...another thread that makes an excuse to whine about 20th/21st century music.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2011)

Yeah, and until I start hearing some serious whining about refrigerators and modern plumbing and personal computers and stereo equipment and central heating and air conditioning, I cannot really take whining about contemporary music seriously.

This goes along with a worship of, and nostalgia for, the past, which was better in every way to the present--well, I'll bet that HarpsichordConcerto, for instance, doesn't even own a wig. Or at least he doesn't power it every day.

Sure there are bad things about modern life. I suppose that some would say that modern music is one of the bad things, like congestion, disease, wars, famine, crime.... Hey, wait a minute, that's just like the nineteenth and eighteenth and seventeenth centuries!!

Yeah, Schumann's Rhenish Symphony expresses perfectly the horrors of the Industrial Age. And Haydn's first eight or nine symphonies vividly reflect the turmoil of the twenty years of war that were just ending around then....

Anyway, I have to take my sarcasm meds now. Another thing a lot of people don't realize is how corrosive sarcasm can be to the user. It's true.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

some guy said:


> Yeah, and until I start hearing some serious whining about refrigerators and modern plumbing and personal computers and stereo equipment and central heating and air conditioning, I cannot really take whining about contemporary music seriously.


Speaking about refrigerators, central heating and air conditioning, and of course, modern avant-garde music altogether, who could not forget this crap?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

How is the modern music that record companies label classical a part of everyday modern life though? People are more likely to listen to popular music.

Classics are remain relevant for a reason, because they are timeless. But these debates are too complicated and we'd probably never see eye to eye, I'm sure my perspective is nothing new.


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

violadude said:


> Oh awesome...another thread that makes an excuse to whine about 20th/21st century music.


Yes, tell me about it… This indeed appears to be one ugly thread! (And I can't even access any of those youtube links.)


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> Messiaen Oiseaux Exotiques:
> 
> 
> 
> , because I suffered through it live. Its not the worst thing, but I'm NOT a fan, he's my scapegoat, especially Glances of the Baby Jesus.


I watched the video and really liked it. (And that pianist is pretty badass, 80's glasses aside.) You're allowed to dislike it, of course, but thank you for introducing it to me anyway. 

I probably would not have liked this, or much of anything by Messiaen, a year or two ago. Thanks to more exposure to a wider variety of music (largely due to taking 20th Century Music History), I think I am listening differently. I'm pleased about this. I enjoy more music now.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Meaghan said:


> And that pianist is pretty badass, 80's glasses aside.


And that pianist is pretty badass, 80s glasses included. Fixed that for you.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Most objectionable? Probably a screamcore 'song' I stumbled upon a few months ago. It was basically a drum beat with the sound of a woman getting raped in the background. Yeah.. but who knows, maybe some guy would like it? Who am I to judge?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Meaghan said:


> I watched the video and really liked it. (And that pianist is pretty badass, 80's glasses aside.) You're allowed to dislike it, of course, but thank you for introducing it to me anyway.
> 
> I probably would not have liked this, or much of anything by Messiaen, a year or two ago. Thanks to more exposure to a wider variety of music (largely due to taking 20th Century Music History), I think I am listening differently. I'm pleased about this. I enjoy more music now.


Well, I try to make a humorous point out of my nasty experience at the orchestra, I love to make fun of that piece. I have to admit, listening to it the next time, it didn't sound too bad given my exposure to Stravinsy symphonies, but I don't like it that much so I'm keeping it as my scapegoat for silly music. I wish I could find a link to Glances of the Baby Jesus, that just sounds funny to me.


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## Dadof5 (Mar 25, 2011)

some guy said:


> Yeah, and until I start hearing some serious whining about refrigerators and modern plumbing and personal computers and stereo equipment and central heating and air conditioning, I cannot really take whining about contemporary music seriously.


Yes, not many of the people who are making negative comments about avant-garde music would do the same for the modern inventions you mentioned. Does this say something in itself?

I don't think these comments come from a desire to reject all things modern. In fact most of the negativity is towards _avant-garde music_ not contemporary (as you state above) or 20th/21st century music - that is just a strawman. So why do so many people who have developed an appreciation for such a recondite art form as classical music find avante-garde music to be just too esoteric even for them?


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

Many reasons, if I may weight in, please. 

Some of those:

They seem to put “sound” in front of the “idea”. (Bad idea!)
They do not care if they are pleasing to the "ear". (Read “brain”.).
They push boundaries for the sake of pushing boundaries. (What a way to get noticed. It’s like breaking the sound barrier on your tri-cycle. Wooha!)


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2011)

Who are "they"?

A composer of music thinking about sound. Hmmm. Sounds fine to me.

"They" certainly please my ears. You got a problem with my ears? Huh?? What have you got against my ears, tell me!

Nobody but kids pushes boundaries for the sake of pushing boundaries. This one's a non-starter, my friend, a chimera, a null set.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I almost forgot about Stockhausen's _Kontakte_ .  There are lots of windy sounds in this piece of ...


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## Vazgen (May 24, 2011)

Dadof5 said:


> So why do so many people who have developed an appreciation for such a recondite art form as classical music find avante-garde music to be just too esoteric even for them?


I predict someone will make reference to "The Emperor's New Clothes" before this thread reaches four pages.

-Vaz


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

some guy said:


> Who are "they"?


I was answering the question immediately preceding my post, and now quoted by Vazgen above.

By "they" I was referring to the avant-garde music composers, in general terms of course. Sorry if it wasn't clear to others, but you seem to have understood me all right...


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

some guy said:


> A composer of music thinking about sound. Hmmm. Sounds fine to me.


Rather shortly, because there's just so much that I can write (not my favorite vacation, if you know what I mean…): I don't think sound equates music necessarily. (I would state that much more categorically just a year ago, but things have changed a bit since then.) But I still see sound as expressive means of musicians, mainly. After all, sound is achieved through instruments and various equipment such as computers, amplifiers, loudspeakers, etc. but nobody in their right mind would give those credit for the music that is being played or performed, just for the way is sounds, at best.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2011)

Serge said:


> By "they" I was referring to the avant-garde music composers, in general terms of course.


I wanted some names.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

some guy said:


> I wanted some names.


JC, Johnny Cage. He sure thought a lot about non-musical sounds. There was a youtube clip we watched about his thoughts about sounds (during an interview).


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## Bix (Aug 12, 2010)

Weston said:


> I have to admit, that's pretty nasty. I can't pick out a single recurring motif in that arrhythmic jumble. Maybe with repeated listens, but why bother?
> 
> But the question was what is the most objectionable. I didn't find the Xenakis objectionable. Probably for me the most objectionable would be some kind of noisecore. This is one of the more palatable examples:
> 
> ...


lets just say i wasnt expecting such noise and i nearly was incontinent - what on earth would that do but damage your brain :O :O


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Bix said:


> lets just say i wasnt expecting such noise and i nearly was incontinent - what on earth would that do but damage your brain :O :O


I can't speak for the 1st piece because I didn't listen to it, but black angels does quite a bit in the way of expressing what the music of damned angels might sound like...


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## Bluebeard (Jun 25, 2011)

Is art really just about smiles and pastures? A lot of people's respect for music here does not seem to exceed that of ear pornography.


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## matsoljare (Jul 28, 2008)




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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

matsoljare said:


>


lol I'm a Christian so I always had to sing this song growing it. It's really really annoying. Modern Christian music isn't particularly good......at all lol Unless we're talking about Penderecki's St. Luke's Passion  but that's quite a different story.


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## Bix (Aug 12, 2010)

Bluebeard said:


> Is art really just about smiles and pastures? A lot of people's respect for music here does not seem to exceed that of ear pornography.


I do agree that art is not just 'smiles and pastures' - when I said damage your brain, i forgot to say that I was listening through headphones and had no idea what was going to come through them (hence the shock)


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