# American Classical



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Been rediscovering American Classical. I had the impression they all sounded more or less similar like music to Jurassic Park, Magnificent Seven, Fanfare for Common Man. I think it was the orchestration being somewhat similar often: big horns, bouncy strings. 

But getting past the idiom, there is a lot of variety and great music. Symphonies beyond Mahler are rarely talked about, outside of Shostakovich. In fact, a lot of German music from the 19th century can sound very similar to each other in contrast. Piston's symphonies struck me as being especially very musical. Who else do you love?


----------



## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

Besides Walter Piston, these guys might be worth your time:

Aaron Copeland
George Gershwin
William Grant Still
Howard Hanson
David Diamond
Paul Creston
Vincent Persichetti
William Schuman
John Corigliano
John Adams


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Copland, Grofe, Barber, Howard Hanson, William Schuman, Charles Ives, Peter Mennin, Charles Griffes, Gershwin, Aaron Jay Kernis and Michael Daugherty among living composers.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

No real surprises from me if we're sticking to American-born composers (actually, there wouldn't be any surprises if we weren't...).

Antheil, Barber, Bernstein, Copland, Daugherty, Gershwin, Ives, Reich, Rorem, Schuman.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Thanks all for contributing. Americans were a major force in both tonal and atonal music in the 20th century. Babbitt, Cage, Carter, Cowell for the atonal side. Diamond is also a favourite of mine. It seems to me the Classical world has largely neglected these composers once music has diversified in that century.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Thanks all for contributing. Americans were a major force in both tonal and atonal music in the 20th century. Babbitt, Cage, Carter, Cowell for the atonal side. Diamond is also a favourite of mine. It seems to me the Classical world has largely neglected these composers, except maybe Cage, once music has diversified in that century.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Thanks all for contributing. Americans were a major force in both tonal and atonal music in the 20th century. Babbitt, Cage, Carter, Cowell for the atonal side. Diamond is also a favourite of mine. It seems to me the Classical world has largely neglected these composers, except maybe Cage, once music has diversified in that century.


I have never really listened to Cage, but for some reason I write him off and has a bias against him...


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Phil loves classical said:


> Been rediscovering American Classical......But getting past the idiom, there is a lot of variety and great music. Symphonies beyond Mahler are rarely talked about, outside of Shostakovich. In fact, a lot of German music from the 19th century can sound very similar to each other in contrast. Piston's symphonies struck me as being especially very musical. Who else do you love?


Schuman, Mennin, Copland, Diamond, Hanson....all fine symphonists, first rate...I also like Antheil, wrote some fine symphonies and ballet music as well.
Greatest American symphony?? many candidates, but my choice 
Wm Schuman Sym #3....real powerhouse work, WWII vintage, definitely right up there with Shostakovich, Prokofieff....


----------



## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I have never really listened to Cage, but for some reason I write him off and has a bias against him...


Try his *In a Landscape* (piano) ~ I think it will surprise you by how "not weird" it is.  
It (pleasantly) surprised me!


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

George Crumb
Morton Feldman
Charles Wuorinen


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I prefer the Boston school: Parker, Beach, Converse, Carpenter, Chadwick, and the rest of the New England gang. I relate to it much better than the mid-century stuff which I find so academic, boring and mathematical. I've tried to enjoy Roger Sessions but it just doesn't work for me. Another American who I deeply love is Louis Moreau Gottschalk. There's a wonderful Naxos disk with the two essential works: Grand Tarantella and Night in the Tropics.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Im not bothered about american music - I have heard quite a bit - one of the great pieces - rhapsody in blue, for example - I find trivial and tasteless.
Bernstein's score of WST is marvellous though.


----------



## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

stomanek said:


> Im not bothered about american music - I have heard quite a bit -* one of the great pieces - rhapsody in blue, for example - I find trivial and tasteless.*
> Bernstein's score of WST is marvellous though.


...... ......


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

laurie said:


> ...... ......


It's ok to have an opinion that differs greatly from the normal way of thinking! It takes guts to state it IMO.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

laurie said:


> ...... ......


I've never cared too much for Copland, at least!


----------



## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It's ok to have an opinion that differs greatly from the normal way of thinking! It takes guts to state it IMO.


Or an utter lack of tact.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bluecrab said:


> Or an utter lack of tact.


You find Stomanek's post tactless? I see nothing wrong in it. He wasn't rude, he was honest and articulate.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I have never really listened to Cage, but for some reason I write him off and has a bias against him...


Cage is a bad example of American music. He is innovative, but probably the least talented well known Classical composer in my opinion. Schoenberg himself blasted him


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I explored only a fraction of american classical. I liked best Hanson, Gerschwin, Bernstein, Bernard Herrmann. I know it is kind of sacriligeous among orthodox classical listeners, but I feel that the best American composers are composers of film music such as Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, Eliott Goldenthal etc. So the best American classical work of the 20th century might be a soundtrack for me. If the goal of music is to evoke emotions, feelings, atmosphere etc...


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I think Charles Ives is one of the greatest composers, and Partch's _Delusion of the Fury_ and Reich's _Desert Music_ are works that have had a really big impact on me - I enjoy much of their other work too. I also enjoy some Copland, Glass, Barber, Crumb and Carter etc.

So, yes there is a lot of excellent American classical music to explore and there is a lot of diversity in it.


----------



## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

It surprises me that none of the advocates for rag time composers have posted are they shy or what?? :devil:


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

stomanek said:


> Im not bothered about american music - I have heard quite a bit - one of the great pieces - rhapsody in blue, for example - I find trivial and tasteless.


Oh, I think Rhapsody is as tasteful as Mozart's music (and I love Mozart's music).


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It's ok to have an opinion that differs greatly from the normal way of thinking!


I wasn't aware there was a normal way of thinking. Could you elaborate?


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Sometimes there’s little point in mentioning someone like Scott Joplin when trying to stuff him into a rigid category doesn’t do him justice and causes nothing but problems, and explanations may not be understood or appreciated regarding the harmonic clarity and the classical elements in his music that others can hear and have spent considerable time explaining. But that he was an American composer who wrote works using classical forms and other elements, not just writing ragtime, is one of the reasons why he is considered an American master as a composer. Not everything can be defined as strictly black or white or rigidly classical or ragtime. Music is fluid and not everyone fits the same mold. Some listeners are grateful when the line between boundaries is challenged.


----------



## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

It was through the Naxos _American Classics_ series that I discovered Samuel Barber. I had, of course, heard his Adagio for Strings, (oddly enough, one time in the chill-out room of a dance club) but never thought to investigate further. A clearance sale at a Borders Bookstore in Florida had me going out the door with a not inconsiderable stack of CDs, among them Barbers' _Media Suite_and his Cello concerto. His symphonies are worth checking out, in addition to the opera _Vanessa_. I have the recording Mitropoulos did with the MET in 1958. (Steiber, Elias, Resnik, Gedda - on RCA, not Naxos).


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> I wasn't aware there was a normal way of thinking. Could you elaborate?


Think _Social Norms_ !


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Think _Social Norms_!


I'd rather dwell on anti-social norms.:tiphat:


----------



## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Two American symphonies I return to often is Harris' Sixth (Gettysburg) and Herrmann's First and only symphony.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> I'd rather dwell on anti-social norms.:tiphat:


Nothing wrong with that, it doesn't mean they don't exist!


----------



## BiscuityBoyle (Feb 5, 2018)

I have no time for Copland's orchestral music but this is one of the wonders of 20th century piano writing


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

For me, this is the best piece of American classical music:






but there's plenty of high quality works and composers to explore beyond Copland and Gershwin (e.g. Adams, Barber, Cage, Chadwick, Corigliano, Diamond, Glass, Grofe, Hanson, Harbison, Harris, Harrison, Ives, Reich, Riley, Schuman, Still).


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Most of my favourite living composers are Americans: Glass, Reich and the two generations that have followed.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm not a great fan of American minimalism. It was an interesting idea that went nowhere very interesting, I feel. But I do like the music of Terry Riley.


----------



## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm not a great fan of American minimalism. It was an interesting idea that went nowhere very interesting, I feel. But I do like the music of Terry Riley.


I agree about Terry Riley's music. I think he often gets tarred with the brush of minimalism just because of In C. In fact, much, if not most, of his work is not minimalist at all. His string quartet music certainly isn't, nor is his piano music.


----------



## Boston Charlie (Dec 6, 2017)

I love the American composers. While Ives, Copland and Barber can be regarded as world-class, many others are 2nd tier at best; but even among the 2nd tier or even 3rd tier category of American composers are some wonderful works. 

As someone here already mentioned, Barber's "Knoxville: Summer of 1915" is about the most beautiful piece of classical music ever composed by an American. 

Other works I enjoy are:

Symphony #4 and Trio #2 by Ives;
Copland's "Appalachian Spring Suite", "Rodeo Suite" and "Old American Songs";
Grofe's "Grand Canyon Suite";
Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue";
"To Thee Old Cause" and "New England Triptych" by William Schuman;
Ned Rorem's 3rd Symphony;
a handful of works by Hovhaness, especially the wind and noisy, Symphony #19 "Vishnu";
Randall Thompson's "Frostiana";
Bernstein's "Age of Anxiety" Symphony and "Prelude, Fugue and Riffs" for clarinet and jazz combo;
songs by Amy Beach;
and piano miniatures by Edward MacDowell (even if it is recycled Schumann, Grieg and Mendelssohn). 

Someone here also mentioned the much maligned and controversial John Cage.

I think that the world needs John Cage now more than ever. While I can only identify a handful of works by Cage that I would find at all appealing, or even listenable (The piano works aren't so bad); I don't think there's another composer who made me think about sound as much as Cage. In the high-speed age of technology, with people constantly plugged into their ear-buds and head-phones; the idea of mindful listening is so much a thing that is passing us all by.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> *I've never cared too much for Copland*, at least!


I love Copland, not the man; the music.

We are all different, and that's okay!

I will not be jumping off of Mt. Everest because of it! Tolerance is a virtue.


----------



## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It takes guts to state it IMO.


Not over the internet.

It is ironic that we can make all sorts of negative observations about composers, musicians or individual works; but if we look crossed eye over a fellow member. . .

Regardless of the negative waves there are some excellent recommendations in the thread.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

arpeggio said:


> Not over the internet.
> 
> It is ironic that we can make all sorts of negative observations about composers, musicians or individual works; but if we look crossed eye over a fellow member. . .
> 
> Regardless of the negative waves there are some excellent recommendations in the thread.


That's true. I at least commend an honest/genuine assessment of a work rather than a superficial one meant to "fit in". I think this board is one of the most mature I've ever been a part of, welcoming lots of different opinions and thoughts. There are a few bad eggs here and there, but for the most part, I love being a part of this community!


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Also, check out this game thread: God bless American classics.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Captainnumber36 said:


> You find Stomanek's post tactless? I see nothing wrong in it. He wasn't rude, he was honest and articulate.


Rubbishing Rhapsody in Blue is no crime if you consider I have sat by while people on here say derogatory things about Mozart.

If Mozart can have rotten tomatoes thrown at his Music - so can Gershwin


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

stomanek said:


> Rubbishing Rhapsody in Blue is no crime if you consider I have sat by while people on here say derogatory things about Mozart.
> 
> If Mozart can have rotten tomatoes thrown at his Music - so can Gershwin


I agree completely! I'm not the biggest Gershwin fan either, the way he blended jazz and classical was a bit contrived IMO. I know this is a rather different story, but Duke Ellington's big band compositions were much more genuine attempts, even though he leaned much closer to the jazz side rather than the classical/composition side.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I agree completely! I'm not the biggest Gershwin fan either, the way he blended jazz and classical was a bit contrived IMO. I know this is a rather different story, but Duke Ellington's big band compositions were much more genuine attempts, even though he leaned much closer to the jazz side rather than the classical/composition side.


Maybe it was the version of the Rhapsody in Blue? I found Bernstein's version boring, which is the usual prime recommendation, but Andre Previn, also a jazz performer aside from Classical conductor, really got me. I bought the CD right after I heard it.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Maybe it was the version of the Rhapsody in Blue? I found Bernstein's version boring, which is the usual prime recommendation, but Andre Previn, also a jazz performer aside from Classical conductor, really got me. I bought the CD right after I heard it.


I just put it on .


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Maybe it was the version of the Rhapsody in Blue? I found Bernstein's version boring, which is the usual prime recommendation, but Andre Previn, also a jazz performer aside from Classical conductor, really got me. I bought the CD right after I heard it.


I think perhaps I dislike just how un-classical it sounds. Perhaps I find it to be too modern and distinctly American. I love America, it's my home country after all, but we are rather shallow aren't we? This music represents that to me, as does Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man. It feels to be lacking in a certain charm and sophistication I find in the Baroque, Classical and Romantic Eras.


----------



## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think perhaps I dislike just how un-classical it sounds. Perhaps I find it to be too modern and distinctly American. I love America, it's my home country after all, but *we are rather shallow aren't we? This music represents that to me, as does Copland's Fanfare for the** Common Man.* It feels to be lacking in a certain charm and sophistication I find in the Baroque, Classical and Romantic Eras.


When you listen to Fanfare for the Common Man, you feel it's representing _shallowness_?


----------



## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Schuman, Piston, Copland, Harris, Sessions...it is a long list. I particularly admired the series of quartets composed by Rochberg in the 70s that helped break the lockhold serialists seemed to have on compositions at the time. Perhaps it is my Math background but I find most numerically generated music rather silly. For me, Rzewski--as an example--strikes a good balance of modern techniques and tunefulness. The People United is a masterpiece.

I would also note that, led by Heggie, American composers, are pretty active on the opera stage.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

laurie said:


> When you listen to Fanfare for the Common Man, you feel it's representing _shallowness_?


It is for the Common, not Great, man after all!


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

laurie said:


> When you listen to Fanfare for the Common Man, you feel it's representing _shallowness_?


You also seem to have fallen into a pattern of calling me out on something, having me respond, and then not replying back...


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think perhaps I dislike just how un-classical it sounds. Perhaps I find it to be too modern and distinctly American. I love America, it's my home country after all, but we are rather shallow aren't we? This music represents that to me, as does Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man. It feels to be lacking in a certain charm and sophistication I find in the Baroque, Classical and Romantic Eras.


I also relistened to the Previn. You are right that it sounds modern, but which I think sounds more sophisticated than Baroque, Classical and high Romantic Eras. But I can get how Classical purists wouldn't like it.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I also relistened to the Previn. You are right that it sounds modern, but which I think sounds more sophisticated than Baroque, Classical and high Romantic Eras. But I can get how Classical purists wouldn't like it.


I too respect your thoughts and opinions!


----------



## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Dave Brubeck wrote a lot of sacred music at the second half of his career which sounds like serious classical music.





The Sermon on the Mount (Baritone Solo)


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> Schuman, Mennin, Copland, Diamond, Hanson....all fine symphonists, first rate...I also like Antheil, wrote some fine symphonies and ballet music as well.
> Greatest American symphony?? many candidates, but my choice
> Wm Schuman Sym #3....real powerhouse work, WWII vintage, definitely right up there with Shostakovich, Prokofieff....


i heard lots of great things about Schuman #3 as one of the greatest in the 20th C. But I could never get into it, despite multiple attempts with Bernstein, the go-to recording. I just tried Schwarz, and boom!, instantly all made sense. Something with Bernstein just never does it for me. I feel he romanticizes everything he touches.


----------



## BiscuityBoyle (Feb 5, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> Something with Bernstein just never does it for me. I feel he romanticizes everything he touches.


Not familiar with the recording you're talking about but overall that's more than a bit unfair - for example, he made the most precise, sharp, controlled, rhythmically propulsive recordings of Russian modernism (see Prokofiev's Scythian or a lot of the Stravinsky). At times he did get carried away with that wild temperament of his, no doubt, but he was a phenomenally knowledgeable musician with forensic attention to detail.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

BiscuityBoyle said:


> Not familiar with the recording you're talking about but overall that's more than a bit unfair - for example, he made the most precise, sharp, controlled, rhythmically propulsive recordings of Russian modernism (see Prokofiev's Scythian or a lot of the Stravinsky). At times he did get carried away with that wild temperament of his, no doubt, but he was a phenomenally knowledgeable musician with forensic attention to detail.


You're right. It is not overromanticizing. It is the slower pace and putting weight on certain things and less on others that I find off-putting. I feel he is more concerned about effect, than letting the music push through on its own, or something, and it distracts me from hearing the structure.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Phil loves classical said:


> i heard lots of great things about Schuman #3 as one of the greatest in the 20th C. But I could never get into it, despite multiple attempts with Bernstein, the go-to recording. I just tried Schwarz, and boom!, instantly all made sense. Something with Bernstein just never does it for me. I feel he romanticizes everything he touches.


Bernstein/NYPO I is very excellent, but is equalled by Slatkin/CSO live [CSO in 20th Century]. Haven't heard Schwarz, but I wonder if Seattle really has the "heavy metal" chops for this powerhouse work[??]


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Antiquarian said:


> It was through the Naxos _American Classics_ series that I discovered Samuel Barber. I had, of course, heard his Adagio for Strings, (oddly enough, one time in the chill-out room of a dance club) but never thought to investigate further. A clearance sale at a Borders Bookstore in Florida had me going out the door with a not inconsiderable stack of CDs, among them Barbers' _Media Suite_and his Cello concerto. His symphonies are worth checking out, in addition to the opera _Vanessa_. I have the recording Mitropoulos did with the MET in 1958. (Steiber, Elias, Resnik, Gedda - on RCA, not Naxos).


For my money Naxos is the finest classical music label there is. They took a chance on specializing in unfairly neglected American composers and for that I am completely grateful. They put fairness/justice ahead of economics. A rarity!


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

hpowders said:


> For my money Naxos is the finest classical music label there is. They took a chance on specializing in unfairly neglected American composers and for that I am completely greatful. They put fairness/justice ahead of economics. A rarity!


Hear hear (and that's from a limey...)!


----------



## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

starthrower said:


> George Crumb
> Morton Feldman
> Charles Wuorinen


Those are three great composers, but the one who gets far less acclaim than he deserves, imho, is Crumb. And Crumb is a long way from Feldman and Wuorinen, and might be enjoyed by many of the anti-20th century music brigade if they gave him a chance. Ancient Voices of Children with the late great Jan DeGaetani and the Contemporary Chamber Ensemble is a highlight.


----------



## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

hpowders said:


> For my money Naxos is the finest classical music label there is. They took a chance on specializing in unfairly neglected American composers and for that I am completely greatful. They put fairness/justice ahead of economics. A rarity!


A few years ago Naxos wanted to move to NZ but our government would not give them the help that was required, The Market Rules Everything, Philistines :scold:


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

fluteman said:


> Those are three great composers, but the one who gets far less acclaim than he deserves, imho, is Crumb.


I'll also put in a plug for Crumb, whose music is simply mesmerizing.

Over time I've come to prefer listening to Crumb with high quality headphones rather than speakers or even in live performance. So much of his music revolves around the subtleties of timbre, acoustics, resonance, etc., and I find that headphones are the most effective way to hear and savor all these details.


----------



## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Eschbeg said:


> Over time I've come to prefer listening to Crumb with high quality headphones rather than speakers


You are a gentleman,proper consideration for others. :tiphat:


----------



## pokeefe0001 (Jan 15, 2017)

laurie said:


> When you listen to Fanfare for the Common Man, you feel it's representing _shallowness_?


When _I_ listen to Fanfare I'm always disappointed I'm not listening to Copland's 3rd symphony. Copland's use of Fanfare in the last movement of the symphony is, IMO, masterful.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Im not bothered about american music - I have heard quite a bit - one of the great pieces - rhapsody in blue, for example - I find trivial and tasteless._

To each his own. this piece of music came in No. 1 on two listener polls last year -- at NPR stations in California and Michigan.


----------



## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

Annie Gosfield (b. 1960, NY)

Well recorded, original voice, discussed rarely (around here).

Website:
http://www.anniegosfield.com/


----------

