# Is the Classical Music Scene Lacking in an Element of Fun?



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I feel it is. 

To analyze first from the period of when the composers lived and created this art, it was a very serious type of business. As the great majority of you know, it was composed for royalty who took themselves very seriously.

In modern days, we've continued in this serious approach to the music in just about every aspect of the scene.

I'd like to see some more spontaneity and perhaps even light rigs, and see the music come out of grand halls, and into theaters where smaller rock groups perform.

Thoughts?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I think of Mozart and how fun of a personality he had, but he was forced to conform to the standards of performance of the times in order to get paid. It wasn't like he had any outlet like in today's world, where underground artists have more artistic freedom.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Also, many of the titles given to works lacked imagination, but that was the standard. I much prefer more colorful titles to my pieces at least.


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'd like to see some more spontaneity and perhaps even light rigs, and see the music come out of grand halls, and into theaters where smaller rock groups perform.


Why do you want this, exactly? Classical music today is a niche historical interest of a small group of people, most of whom are old, and many of whom are attracted to it specifically because of the qualities you're describing (historical value, formality, "seriousness" from an artistic perspective, absence of contemporary artistic sensibilities). I don't think there's much demand for the kind of performances you're talking about, if there was you'd see more of it.

You do sometimes see younger performers of classical music trying to be creative and less staid in how they present themselves and the music, but there's no escaping the fact that we're talking about old, traditional music. To most people today, the music itself sounds serious, no matter how you dress it up.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Yes ....................................


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Into theaters where smaller rock groups perform.


Don't acoustics have a big part in classical performances? I don't think the Nashville Symphony will make much of an impression at Tootsie's.

But seriously, where I am, every year the Nashville Symphony makes a tour of Nashville's parks without charge, featuring lighter music, like the theme to Superman and Saving Private Ryan. In Bach's birthday year, a cellist went to various parts of the city, like the library and even the sidewalks, playing Bach's Cello Suites. Once a year, the symphony hall hosts a 12-hour free music day featuring musicians both inside and outside the symphony hall. And there are always free concerts at our many universities, like Blair School of Music and Lipscomb. We have some independent string orchestras, or at least did before COVID hit, who are/were very much on the cutting edge of reaching out to local audiences, like the ALIAS Chamber Ensemble, playing in smaller venues where the college students were.

But we have a symphony hall which is acoustically perfect, and that's where it sounds the best, so it makes sense to make that their home base. And Nashville's symphony hall has its serious moments (they did Mahler's 2nd, which resulted in people like Garth Brooks standing in applause at the end), it has contemporary but kind of serious acts like Edgar Meyer and Chris Thile, but it also has its lighter concerts, even hosting popular bands and singers in front of the symphony.

So I may be mistaken, but I don't think Nashville is catering solely to mummified seat-fillers covered with dust. It has spaces for country and rock, even rap, but it also realizes that there are those who appreciate art, just like the cinema art houses and the many art galleries. I don't think that's a bad thing.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Absolutely classical has lost its sense of fun. There's one composer who seems to still have a funny bone: Danny Elfman; try his violin concerto. But so many "serious" composers are so serious. Deadly, dull serious. It started about 100 years ago when composers decided they need to write music reflective the times - WWI, WWII, the rise of communism, and more - certainly gave them something to be grave about. Yet there were composers, even some who lived in dire circumstances, who managed to get some levity into their music: Prokofieff and Shostakovich. Arthur Fiedler sure knew how to have fun at concerts. Concert promoters seem to have lost sight of the entertainment factor in concerts. Sometimes audiences don't want to be lectured to, they just want some good music with good tunes and leave feeling happy. Putting light classics back into programs would go a long way to achieving that.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Manxfeeder said:


> Don't acoustics have a big part in classical performances? I don't think the Nashville Symphony will make much of an impression at Tootsie's.
> 
> But seriously, where I am, every year the Nashville Symphony makes a tour of Nashville's parks without charge, featuring lighter music, like the theme to Superman and Saving Private Ryan. In Bach's birthday year, a cellist went to various parts of the city, like the library and even the sidewalks, playing Bach's Cello Suites. Once a year, the symphony hall hosts a 12-hour free music day featuring musicians both inside and outside the symphony hall. And there are always free concerts at our many universities, like Blair School of Music and Lipscomb. We have some independent string orchestras, or at least did before COVID hit, who are/were very much on the cutting edge of reaching out to local audiences, like the ALIAS Chamber Ensemble, playing in smaller venues where the college students were.
> 
> ...


When I was in Nashville for a conference in 2018, I attended a couple of musical performances. It included the Nashville Symphony in a park, and Melissa Etheridge in Symphony Hall.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

there should be more of this stuff:


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## Esterhazy (Oct 4, 2014)

Classical music itself is fun. Its superior form of artistic expression requires much appreciation, learning, thoughtfulness and interpretation that culminates with fun. It is not "instant coffee" fun that we see today with draconian forms of entertainment and some forms of art.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Esterhazy said:


> Classical music itself is fun. Its superior form of artistic expression requires much appreciation, learning, thoughtfulness and interpretation that culminates with fun. It is not "instant coffee" fun that we see today with draconian forms of entertainment and some forms of art.


I agree with the majority of this post.

In fact, the enjoyment I get out of music like classical, transcends the "fun" descriptor.

When a musical art form offers such deep emotional and intellectual satisfaction to the listener, I am not sure what else is needed.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I think some enhanced concert experience additions could be cool.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I feel it is.
> 
> To analyze first from the period of when the composers lived and created this art, it was a very serious type of business. As the great majority of you know, it was composed for royalty who took themselves very seriously.
> 
> ...


Your post is a good example of misunderstanding of the actual music and time period, also I think you have fallen into the trap of cliche presupposition (that all classical music is "serious").
In other posts you talk about Mozart... can you tell me in what way you hear most of his works as being in "serious" mood (I would say that many of his work sound to me: "light, upbeat or funny")?


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> ...But so many "serious" composers are so serious. Deadly, dull serious. It started about 100 years ago when composers decided they need to write music reflective the times - WWI, WWII, the rise of communism, and more - certainly gave them something to be grave about..... Concert promoters seem to have lost sight of the entertainment factor in concerts. Sometimes audiences don't want to be lectured to, they just want some good music with good tunes and leave feeling happy. Putting light classics back into programs would go a long way to achieving that.


Serious as compared to the centuries of liturgical works that preceded? I don't think that composers writing music that reflect their time is anything new. Plenty of wars and Christian soldiers to inspire pre-20th century. War, death, love and betrayal has always been the stuff that art is made of. The "good tunes" that leave the audience feeling happy ignore what's going on around them.

Pops orchestras are light classical. And what's a good outdoor pops concert without the requisite performance of War of 1812 complete with cannon going off?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

mossyembankment said:


> Why do you want this, exactly? Classical music today is a niche historical interest of a small group of people, most of whom are old, and many of whom are attracted to it specifically because of the qualities you're describing (historical value, formality, "seriousness" from an artistic perspective, absence of contemporary artistic sensibilities). I don't think there's much demand for the kind of performances you're talking about, if there was you'd see more of it.
> 
> You do sometimes see younger performers of classical music trying to be creative and less staid in how they present themselves and the music, but *there's no escaping the fact that we're talking about old, traditional music*. To most people today, the music itself sounds serious, no matter how you dress it up.


Simply not true. There is a large, varied and thriving contemporary classical scene. Much of it is not old enough for perhaps half our membership.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Some of the better orchestras do a lot of work for children and have come to recognise that it needs to be fun. For us adults, I would like to see music performed in more relaxed settings. I would be happy if performers wore more casual dress - perhaps as part of their self expression rather than merely obeying convention. The same for audiences. And wouldn't it be good if concerts were so heavily subsidised that anyone could attend without worrying too much about whether the music is for them. Also, there have long been novelties and jokes in classical music. But, yes, most classical music is likely to be presented as very serious. After all performers work incredibly hard to master their art and to prepare for their performances. And much of the repertoire is music that is ultimately very serious and I would not support misrepresenting this or dumbing it down.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

In the '60s marketers tried: Greatest Hits albums; Virgil Foxx and Lorin Hollander swooping around in Mod capes, Boulez and his NYPO rug concerts. Mixed results. Fiedler knew a good tune when he heard it, but the BSO/Pops at the time was woefully incapable of swinging. Beethoven was still the funniest composer who ever lived.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I think by its high-art nature it tends to be serious. It's kinda like asking how we can make funerals or Catholic Masses more fun.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

There is plenty of ammunition for your question about classical music not being fun...even though that's not the way it always was.

There was a recent opinion piece posted by Fanfare magazine, a rerun of a 2002 article by Henry Fogel published first in Symphony magazine, that argued classical music performance in the early through mid-20th century used far more shorter pieces that might today be considered superfluous or "lite" classical or fun music or the dreaded pops. 

This included overtures like Suppe's Poet and Peasant or Rossini's La Gazza Ladra, shorter pieces like Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture and Beethoven's Wellington's Victory, and transcriptions. Fogel cited Emmanual Chabrier's Espana from 1883 as an exemplar of this type of music a piece played everywhere through 1950, then nowhere.

He listed scores of pieces that were played on the schedules of America's and Europe's biggest name orchestras in the century and showed by decade how this music evaporated from performance

Fogel said he thought Arthur Fiedler's Boston Pops from the 1950s cemented this as compositions considered "pops" were more and more dropped from performance. He said he spoke with many classical music conductors who told him if they played the old "fun" music they'd be excoriated by critics. He said that was one of the main reasons they cited for not playing the music any longer.

What Fogel didn't say was just as important: many of the shorter, "Popsier" or even fun pieces orchestras routinely played through the middle of the century, that were abandoned later, were compositions that would be considered new -- such as Stokowski's and others Bach transcriptions, Gershwin's An American In Paris and Respighi's Pines of Rome, the latter both written during the 1930s. 

When you look at new classical music performed today how much of it is fun? I'd say very little other than film music (if you think that classical) or band music. 

The only composer I know today who writes music that might be called fun is American Michael Daugherty ... but his most popular and considered important composition is his Trail of Tears Concerto, a French-sounding flute concerto supposedly about the elimination of native Americans from the West.

The Mahler binge we are on right now -- it is the most popular set of symphonies everywhere -- certainly cannot be called fun music. In fact most music written since the middle 20th century is overly serious and has turned the entire industry that way -- the point of Fogel's piece.

I don't think there is much question this is one of the many trends that have helped grow classical music's irrelevance in the arts world since the 1950s when it was a mainstay in popular culture. The abandonment of fun, pops or lite classical music has led to the abandonment of the casual fan of the music.


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

Couchie said:


> I think by its high-art nature it tends to be serious. It's kinda like asking how we can make funerals or Catholic Masses more fun.


My thoughts exactly. For that matter, we are all aware of the reasons why popular music is so, well, popular, right? That's what it's there for!


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## Andrew Kenneth (Feb 17, 2018)

Anne-Sophie Mutter made an effort in 2015 to perform classical music in a very informal setting for her club concerts.
(music by among others : Vivaldi, Gerschwin, Bach, Gounod & John Williams)


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Such efforts are fundamentally misguided. The problem is always framed: how can we bring Classical music down to the masses? When really the problem is: how we can lift the masses up to classical music? Many regard it as pretentious to like classical music. We should put an effort in to cultivate a more aristocratic mindset and that it's actually OK to dress up nice and take in the best that human culture has to offer. And that being an everyman hardworking blue-collar wage-slave is not the pinnacle of human virtue.


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

Yes... but I also think that it's normal for a cultural tradition whose best works were produced from between 100-300 years ago to become a niche interest that doesn't appeal to most people. It would be strange if it were any other way. Even jazz became this way after the 1960s, and it's much less out-of-step with the today's pop culture than classical music. Another way of looking at this is that it's surprising that classical still has as many fans today as it does.

I often wonder how the great composers would view classical music fans today - would they tell us to stop looking backward and create something new?


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

larold said:


> I don't think there is much question this is one of the many trends that have helped grow classical music's irrelevance in the arts world since the 1950s when it was a mainstay in popular culture. The abandonment of fun, pops or lite classical music has led to the abandonment of the casual fan of the music.


I agree and that's why there are pops orchestras and a guy like John Williams, who is the most recognizable classical artist in the US. They could play nothing but music composed for film for seasons on end, added on to the other lite classical. So that leaves the serious stuff to others and I'm glad for it.

But other things have changed since 1950 including new music forms - jazz, blues, rock, pop, bluegrass, etc., and all can be heard in the quiet of your own home. Classical had the stage pretty much to themselves for a long time.


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

gregorx said:


> I agree and that's why there are pops orchestras and a guy like John Williams, who is the most recognizable classical artist in the US. They could play nothing but music composed for film for seasons on end, added on to the other lite classical. So that leaves the serious stuff to others and I'm glad for it.
> 
> But other things have changed since 1950 including new music forms - jazz, blues, rock, pop, bluegrass, etc., and all can be heard in the quiet of your own home. Classical had the stage pretty much to themselves for a long time.


Right. Some people in this thread seem to be ignoring this last point... part of the rise of pop forms of music is precisely because they are inherently *more fun*, among other things, as the culture has evolved to prioritize that. There is no way classical music can compete, and why should it?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

There have been and still "pops concerts" in a wide sense (opera/operetta arias, waltzes, general "orchestral spectacular" etc.) for ages. Also Beethoven in the park or outside stadium etc. Or Last Night of the Proms. And even for "serious" concerts, dress codes etc. have been mostly gone for many decades. I think all of these are red herrings, they do not prevent interest in classical music.

As for "fun", among the 10-15 most frequently played operas at least 1/3 are "comic operas" (Mozart's Da Ponte and Magic Flute, Rossini's Barbiere) Whereas popular "musicals" are not longer "musical comedies", many are now comparably serious wannabe-operas (Phantom, Miserables, Lion King etc.).


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Contemporary music can be loads of fun. Just listen to Harry Partch. Same with early music. More often than not, it's the common practice era stuff and more specifically our culture surrounding it that's boring, boring, boring. Especially in how it's presented to audiences. The Greeks would never have lived like this, nor would audiences in 19th century Vienna.

Go out and explore. Have open ears. Throw out your conceptions of what music "should" be or what the composer "intended". Classical can be tons of fun on a personal level.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Among the many emotions and responses that music invokes, I want to laugh or smile occasionally. That's not popularizing or dumbing down, just recognising that the communication between composer, performer and listener is between three human beings in all their messy individuality. Ibert and Arnold often make me chuckle. That doesn't make their music any better or worse than the intensely serious Bruckner. It's just a different conversation. 
And can concerts be fun? Ask those old enough to remember Hoffnung's concerts.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Such efforts are fundamentally misguided. The problem is always framed: how can we bring Classical music down to the masses? When really the problem is: how we can lift the masses up to classical music? Many regard it as pretentious to like classical music. We should put an effort in to cultivate a more aristocratic mindset and that it's actually OK to dress up nice and take in the best that human culture has to offer. And that being an everyman hardworking blue-collar wage-slave is not the pinnacle of human virtue.


I don't always know when you're serious, but I have noticed at Nashville symphony concerts (at least back when when I attended them) several teenage girls wearing formals. I mean, a lot of teenage girls have a perfectly good prom dress in their closets; this is one place where they can wear it.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Esterhazy said:


> Classical music itself is fun. Its *superior form of artistic expression* requires much appreciation, learning, thoughtfulness and interpretation that culminates with fun. It is not "instant coffee" fun that we see today with draconian forms of entertainment and some forms of art.





Couchie said:


> Such efforts are fundamentally misguided. The problem is always framed: how can we bring Classical music down to the masses? When really the problem is: *how we can lift the masses up to classical music?*


And it's this sort of tired rhetoric that drives people away from classical music. How do you prove that classical is superior to, say, rock? You can't. Classical music has completely lost the cultural prestige that it enjoyed prior to the '60s; if it's going to regain any of that, the public needs to be approached from a place of humility.


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

Portamento said:


> And it's this sort of tired rhetoric that drives people away from classical music. How do you prove that classical is superior to, say, rock? You can't. Classical music has completely lost the cultural prestige that it enjoyed prior to the '60s; if it's going to regain any of that, the public needs to be approached from a place of humility.


I don't understand why anyone would think it's possible or even desirable to regain this. It's possible that the general public's attitude towards classical could change at the margins, there could be limited "revivals" of interest - but culture never really moves backwards (and imo it would be bad if it did).

Rock or pop, for the purposes of most people, ARE superior to classical music. Not because they're inherently better art forms, but because they're current, they represent the artistic values of our era, they're innovative and evolving in front of people's eyes. Even if they respect classical music, I think most people experience it as remote and ancient, which isn't what most people look for in their music.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

mossyembankment said:


> I don't understand why anyone would think it's possible or even desirable to regain this. It's possible that the general public's attitude towards classical could change at the margins, there could be limited "revivals" of interest - but culture never really moves backwards (and imo it would be bad if it did).


Perhaps "cultural capital" would've been a more appropriate term for me to use. I don't see why it's undesirable for classical music to regain more of a presence in the general musical landscape. It's good music after all. Regardless of whether it's possible, it would certainly be desirable.


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

Portamento said:


> Perhaps "cultural capital" would've been a more appropriate term for me to use. I don't see why it's undesirable for classical music to regain more of a presence in the general musical landscape. It's good music after all. Regardless of whether it's possible, it would certainly be desirable.


Yeah, and I guess my comment was necessarily directed at yours as much as it was directed at a general view I see sometimes that it would be a good thing if classical music somehow became "current" again.

I agree that it's good music and that more of a presence would be good - it would be good for more people to listen to it, appreciate it, understand it. It's good for people to have a solid foundation and knowledge of art history - for itself, and because it can inform and improve what comes next. I hope there will still be professional classical musicians and symphony halls so that people can still see it performed. But musical preferences have evolved and will continue to evolve... imo, we shouldn't resent or resist that.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think evolution always = improvement. I guess I just think the way to a better music culture is forward, not back.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

mossyembankment said:


> Yeah, and I guess my comment was necessarily directed at yours as much as it was directed at a general view I see sometimes that it would be a good thing if classical music somehow became "current" again.


Gotcha.........


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Manxfeeder said:


> I don't always know when you're serious, but I have noticed at Nashville symphony concerts (at least back when when I attended them) several teenage girls wearing formals. I mean, a lot of teenage girls have a perfectly good prom dress in their closets; this is one place where they can wear it.


I am always half-serious. How have you all not picked up on this by now? :angel::devil:


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Portamento said:


> And it's this sort of tired rhetoric that drives people away from classical music. How do you prove that classical is superior to, say, rock? You can't. Classical music has completely lost the cultural prestige that it enjoyed prior to the '60s; if it's going to regain any of that, the public needs to be approached from a place of humility.


My opinion is that there is nothing wrong with appreciating great music, recognizing its greatness, and dressing up nicely in respect of this fact. I have no use for humility, it is Christian "virtue" intended to destroy the self-esteem of the masses in order to enslave them. See Nietzsche.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

You are probably joking again by telling the opposite, but as people learn that stuff from the internet, according to Nietzsche humility is not intended to destroy the self esteem of the masses but to vilify the justified self esteem of the excellent "born rulers" (like Achilles) in favor of a mass-compatible "slave morality". Because all the mediocrities eagerly agree to cut the tall poppies down whereas it would be better if they could thrive in their grandiosity and excellence.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Kreisler jr said:


> You are probably joking again by telling the opposite, but as people learn that stuff from the internet, according to Nietzsche humility is not intended to destroy the self esteem of the masses but to vilify the justified self esteem of the excellent "born rulers" (like Achilles) in favor of a mass-compatible "slave morality". Because all the mediocrities eagerly agree to cut the tall poppies down whereas it would be better if they could thrive in their grandiosity and excellence.


Yes, you are probably more correct than me. My problem is I have the Wagnerian sense of compassion for the masses, and seek to elevate them, while Nietzsche wrote them off while ************ to the image of powerful men.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Zdenek Macal* said that "music is partly entertainment, but definitely a big part of music works for the spiritual development and the emotional experiences." I think that puts it in a nutshell, and of course emotion also includes an audience's response to something which is funny or even plain silly. Comedy isn't easy to pull off, because it really succeeds by forcing people to let their guard down. Its easier to fake being serious than it is to simply laugh at something because you think its funny.

I think that humour and lightheartedness still have their place in classical music, whether its in something like one of Andre Rieu's quite spectacular outdoor productions or in a formal concert hall setting. It can be about how the music is presented, for example at a performance of _Carnival of the Animals_, I remember some touches of subtle humour (the clarinetist bobbing his head in from offstage like a cuckoo). Its ironic how Saint-Saens withheld that work and only performed it in his private soirees, because he believed that it wouldn't be taken too seriously. This shows how the judgement of aesthetes and snobs (sans nobilite) can have such a limiting effect on even the most accomplished musicians. Its because their priorities are self-serving, and therefore, wrong.

*Source: http://www.bruceduffie.com/macal.html


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I don't know if this piece is fun or not but I saw this picture in today's Guardian and it amused me.









The short article explains a little:



> In a week of flash floods, the world premiere of Houses Slide was all too timely. Who doesn't currently feel they might be atop a crumbling cliff, metaphorical or otherwise. The composer Laura Bowler and librettist Cordelia Lynn have created a work for soprano and ensemble on eco catastrophe. A woman, overwhelmed by the scale of the disaster, finds a way to take positive action. Directed and conceived by Katie Mitchell and conducted by Sian Edwards, Houses Slide was powered by 16 bicycles: an off-grid world-first that sounds crazy, and nearly was, but couldn't have been more serious.
> 
> Out of the darkness, a whirr of pedals set the piece in motion, created by volunteer cyclists on adapted bikes at the back of the Festival Hall stage (all credit to the technical team that made it happen, and to the riders, who had to keep going for 90 minutes). Eventually a few lights flickered on, illuminating the conductor's and musicians' stands, as well as powering a control desk - which only goes to show how many spinning classes it would take to light up the whole Southbank Centre.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

After the Renaissance (or even during), I think there was always music that was written that's not too serious, like Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. But it's been used in a way now to suggest high society (like in the movie Ace Ventura: Pet Detective). Opera was never meant for anything but great entertainment, and it's also turned into a vehicle for high society. The music itself was never lacking in fun. 

I think the same goes for Contemporary Music. In fact, I could only get into it when I loosened up. It plays (or preys) on older artistic sensibilities. But I feel some also twist the music to suit their agendas into promoting themselves as edgy, hip and progressive. The culture of those who buy the tickets, or promote the music may have been distorted from what was actually in the minds of the composers that wrote the music.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Couchie said:


> I am always half-serious.


Except when you said:


hammeredklavier said:


>


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