# After Sibelius symphonies where next



## whispering (Oct 26, 2013)

Dear All

I have just spent the last few weeks working my way through the Sibelius symphonies. That was quite a journey. Beyond Beethoven, Mozart and Schubert, symphonies have rarely caught my imagination. Brahms, Schumann, Mendelssohn, etc, I have over the years tried all of the major composer symphonies and found nothing which really appealed. My main passion is chamber music. Please understand I am sure they are technically great works, but for me a piece of music has to just stir something in me to appeal. We all come at music from different directions I guess.

Okay back to Sibelius. I love symphony number 1 and also number 7. The others just did not appeal. I have read various threads on this forum about Sibelius symphonies and there are wide variances in opinion. Please again no criticism of Sibelius is intended it is just only those two symphonies out of the seven he wrote which had appeal to me. I cannot explain why but the first starts so strangely then just pulled me in. In a short time period it has become a real favourite of mine.

Now here is what might be a tricky question but hopefully some brave soul might reply. Put to one side the well known composers such as those mentioned above. Roughly in the popularity rankings of where Sibelius sits what other composers are worth trying. Or put another way if his first and seventh symphonies appealed to someone what else would you suggest in the second division. I hate using phrases like that but I am stuck for want of a better one. Put another way if we move away from the symphony war horses what would you recommend? I have no specific time zone in history in mind. Please remember this is for a person who lacks great technical detail regarding classical music, just searches and for every ten or so rejects you suddenly find a personal gem. I prefer music with melody and rises and falls, good string parts and lighter on the brass. That said the later Dvorak symphonies are very appealing to me.

I have just reactivated myself on this forum. The last year has been difficult for me after the death of my mum and the end of my caring role. I thought I had enough classical music to last me out my days. At one level that is correct. I have periods of just playing music I know and love. However I now live alone, have a quiet life and need some adventure. So at other times I just want to put on my explorer hat and go see what is out there in the classical music oceon. I guess it runs in the genes. Mum use to love exploring new places, see what is around the next bend. Might be a dead end of a really great view. With me it seems to be classical music and picture galleries. 

Any replies very welcome. I got some great ones on string quartets in the past. I must confess I got side tracked there when I heard some Sibelius on the radio and thought that sounds interesting. I am a disciplined person usually but love to have a good ferret around in back waters. Let’s face it the classical music world has quite a few of them.


----------



## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

You might try Walton's Symphony #1--Walton was a great admirer of Sibelius (and also Prokofiev--you might explore Proko's symphonies if you are not familiar with them; No 7 might appeal), Also Ralph Vaughan Williams, Nos. 5 and 8.

Also keep trying the other Sibelius symphonies; more may "click" with you.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Good to see you back, and my belated condolences for your loss.

If you liked Sibelius's 7th, then try Ernst Krenek's no.1 op.7 from 1921. It has a not dissimilar 'multi-movement with connective tissue' structure, yet it predates the Sibelius work by about three years. It lacks the older composer's masterful cohesion but I think it was quite a bold step for the inexperienced Krenek, who was still only about 20 years old when he wrote it.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Wow, the 1st & 7th, Sibelian opposites! While it may seem rather 'pat' suggestion, how about Carl Nielsen? His 1st and 4th or 5th.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

One of the happiest discoveries for me in the past decade was the symphonies of Aulis Sallinen. There's a wonderful set on CPO. Beautiful and thought provoking.

Or maybe the works of another composer from the north: Vagn Holmboe. His Da Capo set of symphonies, and the string quartets are wonderful. 

A third composer to look into is Kurt Atterberg. Those life-affirming, powerful works are terrific.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Vaughan Williams: Symphony no. 3 ("Pastoral")
Rachmaninoff: Symphony no. 2
Scott: Symphony no. 1


----------



## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Another post reminded me: try listening to Bliss' _A Colour Symphony_.


----------



## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Vagn Holmboe: Symphony No. 8 "Sinfonia boreale"

But try to get a listen to Tubin and Holmboe (beyond #8, maybe #2, #3, ... )


----------



## marlow (11 mo ago)

Try Vaughan Williams and Walton symphonies


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> Also keep trying the other Sibelius symphonies; more may "click" with you.


I second THIS. Eventually you will start getting into 2 and 5, of that I have no doubt. And then the mysteries of the remaining 3 may reveal themselves. I have a soft spot for 6 in particular. Also, Tapiola gets missed, which is about as much of a symphony as number 7.

Also, very different, but I recommend trying Nielsen symphonies. Particularly 3 and 4, but you may also like aspects of 2 and 5(Bernstein) is really quite something when you are ready.


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

I would suggest VW before Nielsen.


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

How odd that you weren't moved by the 4th or 5th symphonies. As a newcomer to this music, you mustn't forget to re-listen to the 2nd through the 6th at a later time. Do not write these works off! My favorite Sibelius symphony is the 4th. I'm a HUGE Sibelian. Anyway, with this said, your question is where to go next and, honestly, there's nothing like Sibelius' symphonies, but I would say Mahler, Bruckner, Dvořák, Vaughan Williams, Shostakovich or Nielsen may be composers you want to look into and from here you can go in a myriad of directions.


----------



## ansfelden (Jan 11, 2022)

1 and 7, instant favourites, good ear and choice!

the rest will follow...after Sibelius is before Sibelius.


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Sibelius symphonies are most certainly worth it, all of them. You just need to find the recordings that suit you.

Mahler would be my other choice. I would begin with symphonies 2 and 3 and concentrate only on them for a while. Maybe then add the 5th.


----------



## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Like Becca, I thought 1 and 7?? They are totally different which makes giving advice virtually impossible.The first was much influenced by Romantics like Tchaikovsky but 7 inhabits a world so personal that there's nothing else remotely like it. Except perhaps "Tapiola" which closely followed it so start with that if you want another 7th. 

I agree with mbhaub on Sallinen from what I know. Perhaps the Estonian Tubin as well -- the 4th,5th and 8th symphonies are particularly fine. In general, the Swedish romantics tend to be a bit sunnier than Sibelius but Atterberg's 2nd is wonderful and I'd try Rosenberg's 3rd which has a more Sibelian atmosphere, I think. As for Nielsen, although I think he's almost as great a symphonist as Sibelius, they are very different temperamentally -- Nielsen is actually more like a second Beethoven.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Atterberg................


----------



## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

There are some good suggestions here. I think the Vaughan Williams, in particular, is a good recommendation. Not just because he was a Neo-Romantic in the 20th century, but one could argue that even Sibelius's 1st Symphony has more in common with VW than what came before. Such as the use of modal writing (sporadically, not the whole thing). But it's not modal in an Impressionistic sense. It's not orchestrated like say, Debussy would orchestrate it. It's still Romantic sounding. VW did very similar things.

In addition to what was recommended, I would say you could try Howard Hanson, in particular the 2nd and 3rd symphonies.

Since you like chamber music, you could try the Chamber Symphonies of Schoenberg, but the only thing is that the music itself is nothing at all related to Sibelius. But it is in a chamber setting/instrumentation.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

One slightly off-the-wall suggestion would be the New Zealander, Douglas Lilburn who, while he studied with Vaughan Williams, was strongly influenced by Sibelius. A good starting point is A Song of Islands but there are also three symphonies.


----------



## Steve1087 (Sep 17, 2017)

Becca said:


> One slightly off-the-wall suggestion would be the New Zealander, Douglas Lilburn who, while he studied with Vaughan Williams, was strongly influenced by Sibelius. A good starting point is A Song of Islands but there are also three symphonies.


Well I've never heard of Douglas Lilburn but I really enjoyed that. Just got the orchestral works including the above on download (Naxos cond. by James Judd) and ordered his symphonies by the same conductor on CD. Thanks Becca


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Lilburn No.3 is a very enjoyable symphony. How about Nielsen? I'm a big fan of the whole cycle. Also Bax No.6, and Dutilleux's two symphonies.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Waehnen said:


> Sibelius symphonies are most certainly worth it, all of them. You just need to find the recordings that suit you.
> 
> Mahler would be my other choice. I would begin with symphonies 2 and 3 and concentrate only on them for a while. Maybe then add the 5th.


Yeah, if they haven't gotten into Mahler already, that could be a logical next step.


----------



## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Neo Romanza - Thanks for mentioning the Sibelius' 4th Symphony, one of the MOST-original compositions of the past century. Well, let's face it ... the 4th is "craggy", VERY-original (and it owes almost nothing, to Sibelius' inspirations of the first-5 Symphonies), but for many, even nowadays, it might take some ... as they used to say ... "getting used to". Nice, also, for you & others to recommend Carl Nielsen, Ralph V-W, and others. I don't know, but maybe "whispering" might, even go in a direction of American-type Symphonies ... Copland's "Dance Symphony" (maybe one could suggest Morton Gould, conducting, with the Chicago Symphony of great days), or a Roy Harris' Third (Symphony), or Charles Ives - eh?


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

The OP asks:



> Roughly in the popularity rankings of where Sibelius sits what other composers are worth trying. Or put another way if his first and seventh symphonies appealed to someone what else would you suggest in the second division


Some curious responses - such as Mahler - who is neither "second division" (if we accept such a hierarchy) nor much like Sibelius. The same goes for Shostakovich.

I loved Mahler's 6th before I'd heard a note of a Sibelius symphony, but once I'd found the Fantastic Finn, I've struggled to enjoy Mahler since. Of course, all musical journeys are personal and it's difficult to avoid making recommendations without bias, but how is the inexperienced listener supposed to distinguish between those that might genuinely be expected to follow Sibelius, and those that are just the name of a symphonic great?

What Sibelius seems to me to excel at is to write music which is perpetually in transition. It grows and recedes like the tide, offering up a theme which fades then morphs, rising again into another theme. It was quite sometime before I recognised the allegedly 'famous trombone theme' in the 7th as distinctly repeating. It's just so much more subtle than the "exposition development recapitulation" typical of sonata form.

Now, who really does the same kind of thing? Not Gustav, nor Dmitri surely?


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

The original question is peculiar in the sense that it longs for more music like Sibelius, while there is still a lot of Sibelius music itself to explore. Of course, other Sibelius music sounds the most like Sibelius Symphonies 1 and 7.

When exploring outside the Sibelius output, it is hard to find ”true Sibelian music” for he was an original and in my opinion the last true giant of the tonal system. (Who even made C major sound fresh.) Why would other composers try to too closely follow his footsteps?


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> The original question is peculiar in the sense that it longs for more music like Sibelius, while there is still a lot of Sibelius music itself to explore.


















_*"The music paints a gossamer, transcendental image of a mystical swan floating through Tuonela, the realm of the dead. Lemminkäinen, the hero of the epic, has been tasked with killing the sacred swan; but on the way, he is shot with a poisoned arrow and dies. In the next part of the story he is restored to life."*_


----------



## Philidor (11 mo ago)

89Koechel said:


> [ ... ] Well, let's face it ... the 4th is "craggy", VERY-original (and it owes almost nothing, to Sibelius' inspirations of the first-5 Symphonies), [ ... ]


The other way round - in the Adagio of the 4th symphony, Sibelius used a procedure to have something like "pairwise variations", A, B, A', B', A", B" etc. He reused this procedure in the first movement of the 5th (which by itself is revolutionary by using this procedure for a first symphony movement).


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Pairwise variations for a first movement (in a string quartet or trio) were used by Haydn in the 1780s and had been a staple for slow/middle movements since the same time, so I am wee bit reluctant to call the step to use it as the symphonic first movement structure revolutionary in 1910-15 when Schönberg, Webern, Stravinsky and others did rather different things...

I'd recommend the better symphonic poems, such as Tapiola, Okeanides, Pohjola's daughter, Lemminkainen etc. as Sibelius was a rather unique voice in his better pieces (whereas some of the incidental music is rather trite late romantic and hardly memorable), so he sticks out among his contemporaries. And most composers of the subsequent generation (i.e. born around/early 1900s) were more influenced by the main "schools" of modernism, roughly dodecaphony and neoclassicism than by such a unique style as mature Sibelius.


----------



## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Kreisler jr said:


> Pairwise variations for a first movement (in a string quartet or trio) were used by Haydn in the 1780s and had been a staple for slow/middle movements since the same time, so I am wee bit reluctant to call the step to use it as the symphonic first movement structure revolutionary in 1910-15 when Schönberg, Webern, Stravinsky and others did rather different things...
> 
> I'd recommend the better symphonic poems, such as Tapiola, Okeanides, Pohjola's daughter, Lemminkainen etc. as Sibelius was a rather unique voice in his better pieces (whereas some of the incidental music is rather trite late romantic and hardly memorable), so he sticks out among his contemporaries. And most composers of the subsequent generation (i.e. born around/early 1900s) were more influenced by the main "schools" of modernism, roughly dodecaphony and neoclassicism than by such a unique style as mature Sibelius.


For the middle movements I fully agree. But as a first movement where everyone is expecting a sonata form? Not sure.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

89Koechel said:


> .... "whispering" might, even go in a direction of American-type Symphonies ... Copland's "Dance Symphony" (maybe one could suggest Morton Gould, conducting, with the Chicago Symphony of great days), or a Roy Harris' Third (Symphony), or Charles Ives - eh?


Yes!! that Gould recording of Copland "Dance Symphony" is marvelous...neat piece, splendidly performed....Gould's Spirituals is really fine, also...


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Torkelburger said:


> I would say you could try Howard Hanson, in particular the 2nd and 3rd symphonies.


Yes!! I frequently group Hanson in with Sibelius and Nielsen, as "Scandinavian symphonists" [Hanson is American of Swedish ancestry}...there is a a similar quality, sonority in their works....
Hanson 1 and 3 are very strong works, easily approachable...


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Rereading the OP makes me feel he is crying out to discover Tchaikovsky as well as the other Sibelius symphonies (including Kullervo). I agree with those who have suggested Walton's 1st and some of the VWs. As a contemporary of Sibelius, Mahler is an obvious recommendation but his music is so different - perhaps start with the 5th? No mention of Shostakovich (probably the next major symphonist after Sibelius) so far? The 5th is an obvious gateway. Or the 10th, perhaps.

Personally, I wouldn't trawl the lesser Scandinavian/Baltic symphonists as there is nothing in the OP that points me in the direction of lesser works! Nielsen perhaps - a wonderful composer - but don't go looking for Sibelius in his music!


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Why is everybody taking Sibelius as a starting point for further recommendations? The OP stated he likes only two of the seven Sibelius symphonies. I would think that suggests that other types of symphonies may be called for. Like Bax (try 1 or 3 or 6 first).


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> Rereading the OP makes me feel he is crying out to discover Tchaikovsky as well as the other Sibelius symphonies (including Kullervo). I agree with those who have suggested Walton's 1st and some of the VWs. As a contemporary of Sibelius, Mahler is an obvious recommendation but his music is so different - perhaps start with the 5th? No mention of Shostakovich (probably the next major symphonist after Sibelius) so far? The 5th is an obvious gateway. Or the 10th, perhaps.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't trawl the lesser Scandinavian/Baltic symphonists as there is nothing in the OP that points me in the direction of lesser works! Nielsen perhaps - a wonderful composer - but don't go looking for Sibelius in his music!


Yeah, I think the OP would be most happy with *Tchaikovsky´s Manfred + Symphonies 4-6.*

Now this must sound crazy: I actually think the finale of *Stravinsky´s Symphony of Psalms* is rather Sibelian, a sibling to Tapiola. The timeless repetitive tranquil atmosphere and all.

Also *Esa-Pekka Salonen´s LA Variations* is rather Sibelian.

Also *Joonas Kokkonen´s 3rd Symphony*.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

If you are wanting to look deeper into the music of Finland, Do get to hear Leevi Madetoja's 3rd Symphony, as far as I am concerned, the one Finnish symphony that can stand comparison with Sibelius. 

Delighted to see that Sallinen is getting some love here too. A wonderful composer, my favourite contemporary composer.


----------



## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

I just posted this in another thread but it probably applies here. It sounds like most of Sibelius did not click with you, and I agree with ArtRock that more music similar to Sibelius may not be the best route for you.

How much of the Russian and Czech Romantics have you listened to, and did you enjoy it?

Any of the symphonies by Tchaikovsky (1-6).
Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto.
Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1
Borodin Symphony No. 2
Kalinnikov Symphony No. 1
Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherazade
Rimsky-Korsakov Symphony No. 2 'Antar'
Really any of the late 19th century Russian romantic composers.
Dvorak Symphonies 1-9 (don't just listen to Nos. 7-9, his symphonies Nos 5, 6 and 3 are also magnificent)
Dvorak Cello concerto
Dvorak Overtures and tone poems
Dvorak Slavonic Dances
Brahms Hungarian Dances


----------

