# Doing without technology...



## Ingélou

Figleaf's 'Self-Sufficiency' Thread :tiphat: has set me thinking...

We are all on here because of technology - but would you be able to live happily without it?

Which technology could you most easily do without?

Which do you find essential or life-enriching?

I'm hoping for a little Conversation about Life - wit, wisdom and intriguing anecdotes will all be welcome. 

Thanks in advance for your interesting replies. :tiphat:


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## Pugg

I could do without: Kindle / electronic books, also no air condition as this is not necessary in my country.
And a double system ; heating / cooling are hardly sold in this country.

Computer....I skype with my grandparents in Manchester 3 /4 times a week.
( hey want to know if I don't grow a beard, that would kill them).
No CD player, the thought alone drives me up the wall .


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## Ingélou

I voted for 'television' - because we already do without it. However, we do a lot of screen-watching, enjoying films and Star Trek episodes on our computer. We are also allowed to watch the occasional BBC recorded programme - we only really bother with University Challenge, though, and Have I Got News For You. 

I miss news bulletins and especially local news bulletins - but most of all, I miss Wimbledon.
I am having to rely on the TC Tennis threads to keep up with it all - don't let me down!

We have had a TV for as long as I can remember - I can actually remember a TV arriving when I was four or five and watching Bill & Ben the Flower Pot Men on it. I loved TV and in my teens watched up to 20 hours a week. As I have a retentive memory which is only now beginning to fade, this means that I can sing you signature tunes from 'Robin Hood', 'Ivanhoe', 'Compact', 'The Onedin Line' & so on and also the advertisement jingles for Murray Mints, the Co-op, Pepsodent, Trebor Mints and Milk Maid Stout. When we went on holiday as children, we always moaned about being television-less - self-catering accommodation didn't have sets - and we sometimes stayed in farmhouses that didn't even have electricity or an inside loo but used calor gas instead. Reading Edgar Allan Poe's Tales of Mystery & the Imagination at the age of eleven in calor gaslight was an unnerving experience ...

But hey, do you know what - we never missed TV at all on holiday.

I suppose the computer is the thing I couldn't do without these days. But actually, I could...


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## Art Rock

The one jumping out is the Kindle thing. Don't have it, don't want it.

TV and home cinema would not be a big loss either. AC we don't have, but heating yes (and I'd like to keep it that way). Fridge is essential, freezer not (in fact, we don't have a separate one). A car is very good to have. The computer and the CD player are keepers.....

We also do not have a dish washer, a microwave, or a drier.


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## SiegendesLicht

Things I do not need and do not really want: car, Kindle, air conditioning, TV (I do have one, but if it got stolen, I would probably not even notice), CD player (I play music on my laptop through headphones), home cinema. 

I could probably survive a mild winter without central heating, and with a little inventiveness I could do without a refrigerator if a need arises. 

I think the computer would be the hardest one of all to give up. Maybe if I lived in some lonesome place surrounded by beautiful nature, with as many books as I want, some pets and a CD player for the music, I could manage that too.


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## Taggart

I grew up before any of these were common. We had a coal fire which also heated the water. We dried clothes in the kitchen in winter. We didn't have a fridge or washing machine. We had a (valve) radio which crackled. We relied on the newspaper for news. We read books (incessantly). We didn't have a phone. We travelled by bus or train. So I know I could do without most modern technology.

Trouble is that most business now is organised around technology. To get the best deals on many products you need the internet. We're moving from cash and cards to wallets on mobile phones. Because cars are now so common, public transport is poor.

Similarly, because houses now have fridges and / or freezers we no longer have the daily shop. Because we don't need the high street in the same way, shops are moving out of town so we need cars. Because labour is now so expensive, we have self service. Grocery shops are moving back towards home delivery because it's cheaper. That in turn makes it necessary to use technology to do your shopping.

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there. So we have to put up with the country we live in - the present. I voted for subtler response.Yes I can give it up, but I need the car, the fridge, the computer to live in today's world.


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## Guest

I need my Bialetti Moka Express stove top coffee pot. Everything else is a bonus.


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## Guest

Shouldn't the poll be multiple choice?


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## Ingélou

dogen said:


> Shouldn't the poll be multiple choice?


 Probably - I really just wanted it to be a 'taster' for people's comments. And so far these have been excellent.


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## Wood

This is an interesting thread, because over the years I have often challenged my use of these items, and rarely take them for granted.

I don't have a TV license, though my tele is used a great deal for DVDs and internet feeds from YT, and also for delayed (motor)cycle racing from ITV. 

I don't have a freezer, whilst my fridge needs to cost less than the food wastage I would otherwise have. When I get round to it, I'll cost it out on a spreadsheet to determine whether or not it needs to go.

My wet central heating system is a pain, in future wood stoves and temporary electric heating will be the way ahead for me.

I have a car, well three actually, and four motorcycles.  However, I'm firmly of the opinion that a car is not necessary for anyone who is reasonably healthy and mobile, as bicycles can easily be used to cover the distance to train stations and bus stops in most parts of the UK, carry shopping etc. I had no motor vehicles until I was 25, and lived for a year in my current semi-remote area in Scotland without a car. It was fine.


Paradoxically, it is quite complicated to live a low technology life, so internet access for information on non-standard ways of doing things makes a huge amount of difference.


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## Figleaf

I got rid of the TV a few years ago thinking that was a very brave thing to do, but watching telly on an actual TV set was already an anachronism by then: I'm usually the last to abandon obsolete technologies, and this was no exception! Haven't had central heating since 2013 when the boiler broke, and you know how it is with rental properties - what breaks, stays broken, unless the tenant wants to pay to fix it themselves - not bl##dy likely in my case. Fortunately we haven't had a cold winter since 2010 or thereabouts. Similarly, I've done without a working freezer for a decade. We still have and use electricity in the rental place, though I never liked the look of the wiring much, and about half the power points and overhead lights don't work. Home cinema I never bothered with - I've always been a total snob about people who have giant flat screen TVs, though I'm envious of their sound systems! Car? No, ridiculous money pit, though I must admit that I always overestimated the cost, since I got my figures from the AA, who once put the cost at £6k a year. This amount would surely make it uneconomical unless you absolutely needed it to get to some lucrative job, though Wood says that figure is absurdly high: his three cars include one which is off the road but kept to provide spare parts for the other two, which he fixes up himself, thus keeping repair costs to a bare minimum. I'm not that clever, so I do without ,for now anyway. I'm investigating a _voiture sans permis_, as driven by elderly French widows who never got around to sitting a test. Whether it has enough advantages over a cargo bike to justify the cost I don't know, and I may be too chicken to drive on French roads anyway. 

If the way we live in our rented place occasionally resembles Withnail & I (the washing up scene in particular ) the French house is a bit like Uncle Monty's holiday cottage where the heroes go on holiday by mistake. Hopefully I'll find someone to install the proper wood burners I bought in the spring and have someone deliver logs, so we don't have to burn the furniture to the strains of Al Bowlly singing 'Hang out the stars in Indiana'.  The only technology named in the poll which I plan to keep when we move there is a battery powered boombox and a couple of tablet computers. I also have a portable speaker (liberated from Wood's house, unless he's taken it back) plus some portable solar panels and battery packs, and a mains battery charger which the nice people at the Office de Tourisme let me use there. (The solar panels are so I don't wear out my welcome at the Office de Tourisme during high season, when there are actual tourists about.)

Re Kindles, I never had one and was under the impression that they were quickly superseded by tablet computers. Amazon does a great tablet which my mum bought for only £50.


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## znapschatz

As we get older, items that formerly were unnecessary have become necessities. Air conditioning in summer has been a health measure of late, although we use only two window ones in living room and bedroom instead of central air. Cars are necessary for both our occupations and much daily life, and the rest of the stuff is simply keeping abreast of today's world and its pleasures. Besides, these are really cool things. I love having the interwebs for information, entertainment, work and most of all, to play with. Kindle is the only item on that list we don't have. But our vacations from all that have never been a problem for us. We don't even use a tent when camping, she a hardy camper since childhood, I a former Scoutmaster (admittedly, it's been a few years since  ) and have never felt anxiety when away from our household necessities. We prefer to adapt to the physical things of the world we live in because the trappings don't matter and we have no need to buck community standards. Ideology is another matter, but that is of the mind and needs no technology.


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## schigolch

I love all this stuff.

Waiting eagerly for dropping the current interfaces: television, CD player, computer, kindle... and get a direct connection to my brain.

Heater / Freezer are great in winter and summer. 

About cars, I also hope to be able to buy a self-driver one before I die. Just relax and tell the machine where I want to go. It's like having a driver, but 24/7 service and cheaper, I hope.


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## GreenMamba

E-books I read sometimes, but could do without.

I am dependent on my TV. I hate watching movies or shows on a computer or iPad. I actually listen to CDs on a Blu-Ray player connected to my TV.

Maybe I should have chosen Home Cinema, as I don't have a big elaborate system or anything.


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## Kivimees

Taggart said:


> I grew up before any of these were common. We had a coal fire which also heated the water. We dried clothes in the kitchen in winter. We didn't have a fridge or washing machine. We had a (valve) radio which crackled. We relied on the newspaper for news. We read books (incessantly). We didn't have a phone. We travelled by bus or train. So I know I could do without most modern technology.


You could have grown up in the Estonian SSR in the 80s! :lol:


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## CDs

I have no computer, WiFi, e-books in my house. I have a TV but only for movies it gets no TV signal. The only thing I really need is my CD players.


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## Kivimees

I think I made a hash of my vote. I took the question to mean: which of these could you live without? - perhaps the meaning was which of these that you have could you live without? I don't have a home cinema, so clearly I can live without it. Ditto central heating/AC. Ditto e-books (I have a serious relationship with paper). So if I consider only those items that I have, I would do away with the television.


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## Ingélou

Kivimees said:


> I think I made a hash of my vote. I took the question to mean: which of these could you live without? - perhaps the meaning was which of these that you have could you live without? I don't have a home cinema, so clearly I can live without it. Ditto central heating/AC. Ditto e-books (I have a serious relationship with paper). So if I consider only those items that I have, I would do away with the television.


Ah, the votes don't matter - much more interesting to see what people think. Thanks for all the replies - so thoughtful! :tiphat:

Sorry I made a hash of the poll - for example, why didn't I include dishwashers & tumble-dryers?


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## Kivimees

Ingélou said:


> Sorry I made a hash of the poll - for example, why didn't I include dishwashers & tumble-dryers?


Dishwashers?

What about these essential items?


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## Figleaf

Ingélou said:


> Ah, the votes don't matter - much more interesting to see what people think. Thanks for all the replies - so thoughtful! :tiphat:
> 
> Sorry I made a hash of the poll - for example, why didn't I include dishwashers & tumble-dryers?


Because those are such an obvious waste of space, money and fuel that surely none of us would bother with them.


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## Figleaf

Kivimees said:


> Dishwashers?
> 
> What about these essential items?
> 
> View attachment 86366


Dumbbells? Marital aids? Baby rattles?


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## Kivimees

Figleaf said:


> Because those are such an obvious waste of space, money and fuel that surely none of us would bother with them.


Untrue. I have two dishwashers at home - I call them 'the left hand' and 'the right hand' and I would never give them up!


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## Kivimees

Figleaf said:


> Dumbbells? Marital aids? Baby rattles?


Hoverboards. Google yourself I haven't the strength.


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## Guest

Without going into tedious reasoning, but a tumble dryer is a definite in this house.


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## Guest

Figleaf said:


> Dumbbells? Marital aids? Baby rattles?


Yep, a 3-in-1 multi gadget!


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## Dr Johnson

I don't have a Kindle so could live happily without one.

I could not live without some sort of heating for the colder parts of the year here (October to June ).

I still watch TV on a TV, but I suppose I could watch it on a computer monitor instead.

What does "Home Cinema" mean? A DVD player or a DVD player plus all those speakers and a special amp? I don't have or want 25 speakers and whatnot in my living room and I suppose I could plug the laptop into the TV to play DVDs.

I could not live without a computer.

I could live without a freezer if I had to but would rather not. I refuse to live without a fridge.

I also consider a tumble drier an absolute necessity.

I would go mad without a car.


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## Kivimees

Dr Johnson said:


> I refuse to live without a fridge.


Just put your perishables in a bag and hang it down your well.


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## Bulldog

I easily can live without electronic books and a home cinema. The remaining items are essential.


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## Dr Johnson

Kivimees said:


> Just put your perishables in a bag and hang it down your well.


A splendid idea!

If I had a well.


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## Guest

I'm keeping my perishables right where they are.


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## TxllxT

Television + satellite we have because my wife is watching one Czech sitcom for over ten years  As long as this serial lasts, so long she'll be watching it, so long she needs TV without question. 

CD player: yes, top of the bill Arcam. 

Home Cinema: we've got a Google stick that we use for relaying YouTube on the big screen. Lately my wife is showing me bloggers from London, St Petersburg and Israel. They make good watching with professional quality. Good for my Russian, therefore: indispensable.

Fridge/Freezer/Central Heating: Yes. At present we hardly make use of the central heating: quadruple glazing has cut the heating costs to one-third of what a normal Dutch family is paying for.

Airco: No. We've got airco in the car but hardly use it.

Computer: Yes, both for work & leisure + Skype. Smartphone: for sudden photo opportunities.

Kindle / electronic books: No

Car: Yes. We live in a small village and we live in big Europe...


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## Kivimees

Dr Johnson said:


> A splendid idea!
> 
> If I had a well.


*Well*, your next move seems obvious.


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## Wood

No-one in Scotland seems to eat vegetables, so if like me you live close to a shop with green grocery there is always a plentiful supply of nearly outdated items going cheap. It's a double cost saving, because the shop is paying for the fridge too.


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## Dr Johnson

Kivimees said:


> *Well*, your next move seems obvious.


Yes, it does.

I'm going to the fridge to get a cold drink.

:lol:


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## Kivimees

Wood said:


> No-one in Scotland seems to eat vegetables, ...


Maybe that explains why there was no shortage when I visited.


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## Wood

Kivimees said:


> Maybe that explains why there was no shortage when I visited.


Probably, but if you want a deep fried Mars Bar you'd better be at the Chip Shop early.


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## Morimur

TV is useless. Haven't had one in years. Who needs TV when you people are around?

[video]https://media.giphy.com/media/FmT9hXzddXhO8/giphy.gif[/video]


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## SixFootScowl

I put television. We haven't had one since 1989 and I don't miss it. I should have also put Kindle down as I am not into it and always prefer reading from paper copies.


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## Jos

Speaking for myself; wife and children have completely different ideas about an alternative lifestyle than myself.

No television: easy. Couldn't miss the physical screen though, I like Youtubing and Netflix on a big screen.
Home cinema; don't know exactly what is meant by this, but if it involves lots of speakers and projectors and complicated remotes: I don't have them and I don't want them.
CD-player; binned a few years ago, together with all the cd's bar a few for in the car.
Central heating / airco; no need for, I love the cold and I have a woodstove. If it were for me to say, the house wouldn't be warmer than 16 deg C.
Kindle, no thank you. Small screen without the mouldy smell that I like so much about actual books. Got a fairly large library of "dead tree" books and still prefer them.
Practically speaking I could easily do without a car. 10 bicycleminutes from work, woodlands across the street to walk the dog yet shops are nearby too. But I simply love the things so I would like to keep at least one.


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## Guest

Only one choice, Ingelou? You failed to leave me the "Beethoven" option (for whom I always vote). 
Anyway, the gadgets in your list that I can happily do without are: TV, home cinema and Kindle books.
I suppose if I were a bit more rugged I could do without heating and air-con. 
Other gadgets not on your list that I can do without are: fancy cooking gadgets, sporrans, jock-straps, bras, X-ray glasses, tents, platic bags and tin-foil hats to deflect microwave emissions, intercontinental ballistic missilers with nuclear capabilty and firearms. I think that more or less covers it, as far as I am concerned.


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## Taggart

Kivimees said:


> Dishwashers?
> 
> What about these essential items?
> 
> View attachment 86366


An old box and some wheels did for us:


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## TxllxT

TalkingHead said:


> Only one choice, Ingelou? *You failed to leave me the "Beethoven" option (for whom I always vote)*.
> Anyway, the gadgets in your list that I can happily do without are: TV, home cinema and Kindle books.
> I suppose if I were a bit more rugged I could do without heating and air-con.
> Other gadgets not on your list that I can do without are: fancy cooking gadgets, sporrans, jock-straps, bras, X-ray glasses, tents, platic bags and tin-foil hats to deflect microwave emissions, intercontinental ballistic missilers with nuclear capabilty and firearms. I think that more or less covers it, as far as I am concerned.


You mean you also can live without Beethoven????????????? :tiphat:


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## Jos

TalkingHead said:


> Only one choice, Ingelou? You failed to leave me the "Beethoven" option (for whom I always vote).
> Anyway, the gadgets in your list that I can happily do without are: TV, home cinema and Kindle books.
> I suppose if I were a bit more rugged I could do without heating and air-con.
> Other gadgets not on your list that I can do without are: fancy cooking gadgets, sporrans, jock-straps, bras, X-ray glasses, tents, platic bags and tin-foil hats to deflect microwave emissions, intercontinental ballistic missilers with nuclear capabilty and firearms. I think that more or less covers it, as far as I am concerned.


Well, X-ray glasses could be nice sometimes  but I definitely agree on the nuclear and firearms !


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## Ingélou

^^^^ Talking Head, you could have voted for 'Subtler Response - give details' and explained why Beethoven was a music-making gadget. 
A bra is definitely an essential gadget as far as I am concerned!

Figleaf, I confess that I also have a tumble dryer - because when you hang clothes outside here, you have a choice of four outcomes:

1. Rain-laden sea breeze prevents clothes from drying.
2. Brisk sea breeze dries clothes stiff as a board & I'm not into wearing boards.
3. Large seagull brings his mates to hold a loo party overhead.
or
4. The clothes dry - mostly - with just a few irritating damp spots that turn sour & smell fusty.


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## Dr Johnson

TalkingHead said:


> Only one choice, Ingelou? You failed to leave me the "Beethoven" option (for whom I always vote).
> Anyway, the gadgets in your list that I can happily do without are: TV, home cinema and Kindle books.
> I suppose if I were a bit more rugged I could do without heating and air-con.
> Other gadgets not on your list that I can do without are: fancy cooking gadgets, sporrans, jock-straps, bras, X-ray glasses, tents, platic bags and tin-foil hats to deflect microwave emissions, i*ntercontinental ballistic missilers with nuclear capabilty and firearms.* I think that more or less covers it, as far as I am concerned.


I want these too.


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## Badinerie

My two Cents worth.

Television
I have done without one in the past. When I was young Single and lovely Heh! I was never in the flat. I could do without the 49" 4K monstrosity now that Mrs Bad insisted on buying!

Computer
Could do without PC and internet. As long as I could order cheap cd's from Amazon at the local Library.

Home Cinema (arrangements)
Pffft! Where would I put it?

CD Player (music player)
Ah well LP's and Cd's Are where Im at and of course BBC Radio 3

Fridge/freezer
Where else would I keep my 'Kronies'

central heating/ air conditioning
In my old flat the heating ect would go out that often I used to have a sleeping bag in the winter. Mates used to call me 'the six foot Caterpiller' 

Kindle / electronic books
Horrid junk! 

Car 
Expensive dangerous horrid junk!


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## Jos

Figleaf said:


> Because those are such an obvious waste of space, money and fuel that surely none of us would bother with them.


Fig, brave woman! Three children (right ?) and NO tumbledryer....? Wow !!!
Next you are telling us you used cloth nappy's too.


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## Guest

TxllxT said:


> You mean you also can live without Beethoven????????????? :tiphat:


Nah, I meant I can live without electronic sinewave representations of Beethoven's musical thought patterns so long as I can have access to printed scores, innit?


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## Dr Johnson

I have come to the conclusion that I could live without all of it except a car, the firearms and the tumble drier.

:tiphat:


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## Jos

I feed my dogs only with meat and buy it in bulk so I do have a deep freezer especially for that purpose. I could do without one, but the dogs wouldn't like it if they would have to eat that weird dry stuff, let alone the stuff that comes in tins.

I know, first world concience issues, but that's were I live. I have a deep freezer for my dogfood......


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## Guest

Dr Johnson said:


> I have come to the conclusion that I could live without all of it except a car, the firearms and the tumble drier.


We must talk, Doc.


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## TxllxT

Ingélou said:


> ^^^^ Talking Head, you could have voted for 'Subtler Response - give details' and explained why Beethoven was a music-making gadget.
> A bra is definitely an essential gadget as far as I am concerned!
> 
> Figleaf, I confess that I also have a tumble dryer - because when you hang clothes outside here, you have a choice of four outcomes:
> 
> 1. Rain-laden sea breeze prevents clothes from drying.
> 2. Brisk sea breeze dries clothes stiff as a board & I'm not into wearing boards.
> 3. *Large seagull brings his mates to hold a loo party overhead.*
> or
> 4. The clothes dry - mostly - with just a few irritating damp spots that turn sour & smell fusty.


Ah, so they come here over from Norfolk!


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## Dr Johnson

TalkingHead said:


> We must talk, Doc.


I'm not letting you have the tumble drier. Sorry.


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## Wood

Jos said:


> Fig, brave woman! Three children (right ?) and NO tumbledryer....? Wow !!!
> Next you are telling us you used cloth nappy's too.


:tiphat:She did use cloth nappies before they became fashionable again. However, the shaped ones took longer to dry so the terrycloth squares were used instead.:tiphat:


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## Jos

Cloth nappies are fashionable ????

We sometimes get melancholic about how the children grow up so fast (oldest is of to uni in september) and how time passes and all that. 
Hipsters washing cloth nappies make me feel happy to be old(ish) !


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## Guest

Dr Johnson said:


> I have come to the conclusion that I could live without all of it except a car, the firearms and the tumble drier.
> 
> :tiphat:


I couldn't live without the bras.


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## Guest

dogen said:


> I couldn't live without the bras.


Burn 'em!!..............


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## Krummhorn

Television

For entertainment - Star Trek fan as well as documentaries and crime dramas.


 Computer

Necessity for all the work I do related to music.

Home Cinema (arrangements)

No need for this one, but I do have the TV and DVD player audio routed through my home audio system.


 CD Player (music player)

There is one in my car I use all the time for classical music.


 Fridge/freezer

Basic necessity for storing food and drink.


 central heating/ air conditioning

We live in the Southwestern desert of the US. Summer temps can reach 117°F, so air conditioning is a must.
Our winter temps can dip to 22°F, so central heating is also a must.


 Kindle / electronic books

Can do without those. The only books I read are music scores.


 Car

An absolute must where I live as there is a severe lack of mass transit system. I could take the bus to work but with transfers and wait times it would take the better part of 4 hours to reach the destination, and the same amount of time to return home ... and at that the bus stop pickup point is 2 miles away, so the car is out an running anyway. I can drive to or from work in 25 minutes.

When I go on holiday though, I do not watch TV or use the internet. My wife, however, is a different matter :lol:


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## Guest

TalkingHead said:


> Burn 'em!!..............


Never! I couldn't live without the perfect poached egg on some crusty toast.


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## aleazk

I'm not against the idea behind the television, it's just the crappy programming.


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## Morimur

dogen said:


> I couldn't live without the bras.


That's why I love the Dutch.


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## Antiquarian

I voted Television as the one bit of technology I could do without. Television is passive entertainment, in that you don't produce anything and respond to engineered stimulus from the producers of the media. The most pernicious form is the sit-com with the laugh track. You are expected to find funny what the writers think is funny. The present batch of documentaries are bereft of substantial meat, because they try to appeal to broad audiences. Reality shows reveal and revel in the banal. The broadcast news is awful, not only in the stories themselves, but in the transparent bias of the networks. Television is the great TIME WASTER, and in my rather sad opinion should be the entertainment of last resort for any intelligent human being. End of rant.


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## Lyricus

dogen said:


> Shouldn't the poll be multiple choice?


This for me as well. I already don't have a modern TV (just this old piece of junk from 2000), no cable, no home cinema, no car, no central heat/ac (NYC, so a radiator and window unit). I do love my smartphone, but I'm a late adopter to that, and I couldn't go without a computer due to my work. eBooks are great again because of work, but I haven't read any ebook fiction in nigh ten years.

It's good to keep all this at bay. That urge to downsize and downgrade is always present, but it naturally conflicts with so many modern conveniences, like rice cookers or nice headphones.


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## Krummhorn

aleazk said:


> I'm not against the idea behind the television, it's just the crappy programming.


And that is precisely why I have streaming television (Roku, Netflix, Amazon Prime) as I can be selective about what I want to watch. Broadcast television is totally the pits ... 4 minutes of show, 8 minutes of commercials, 4 minutes of show, 8 more minutes of commercial, then a station identification break and 8 more minutes of commercials ... yeesh.

I would jump on cable television in a minute only if they guarantee that I will not see any commercials. Paid TV should be commercial free, imho. The nice thing about streaming television is that there are NO commercials. If streaming services can offer commercial free service so should paid TV (cable).


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## Taggart

Krummhorn said:


> Broadcast television is totally the pits ... 4 minutes of show, 8 minutes of commercials, 4 minutes of show, 8 more minutes of commercial, then a station identification break and 8 more minutes of commercials ... yeesh.


Here in the UK we can see the impact of adverts when we look at Star Trek. All series ran for an hour on US television. The original series comes in at about 50 minutes an episode. TNG goes down to about 45 minutes, DS9 is about 42 minutes. Voyager and Enterprise are about 40 minutes. Given that the opening and closing credits take about 6 minutes off the run time, we were rapidly approaching the point where they would have gone to a 90 minute slot to get any story in between the adverts and the credits.


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## Headphone Hermit

Taggart said:


> I grew up before any of these were common.


When I were a lad ..... yes, same here.

However, the only one on the list that I *choose* to live without is Home Cinema ... oh, and air conditioning (of course) though in the latter case, I doubt if there has *ever* been a day when it has been needed it Lancashire


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## Headphone Hermit

Taggart said:


> Here in the UK we can see the impact of adverts when we look at Star Trek. All series ran for an hour on US television. The original series comes in at about 50 minutes an episode. TNG goes down to about 45 minutes, DS9 is about 42 minutes. Voyager and Enterprise are about 40 minutes. Given that the opening and closing credits take about 6 minutes off the run time, we were rapidly approaching the point where they would have gone to a 90 minute slot to get any story in between the adverts and the credits.


Never seen an episode of _Star Trek_ - but I'd still like a TV to watch documentaries and the occasional sporting event


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## Guest

Regarding TV adverts, I recall Ian Hislop's comment about Downton Abbey: he thought it was a programme about an insurance company which had an occasional break for some period drama.


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## Headphone Hermit

dogen said:


> Regarding TV adverts, I recall Ian Hislop's comment about Downton Abbey: he thought it was a programme about an insurance company which had an occasional break for some period drama.


Was he complaining or being thankful there was something of interest on the TV? :devil:


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## GreenMamba

Antiquarian said:


> I voted Television as the one bit of technology I could do without. Television is passive entertainment, in that *you don't produce anything and respond to engineered stimulus from the producers of the media.*


That sounds like it could apply to music as well. I don't produce anything when I listen to a Beethoven symphony.


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## Jeff W

Television for me. The only thing I watch on the darned thing these days is 'Doctor Who'!


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## cwarchc

TV I never watch it

CD's I couldn't live without. Most of my music is on CD

Pc/internet. This is something I would miss.

Car unfortunately I need to get to work

AC, I live in the north of the UK, on the 3 days we get of summer, it's not needed

Heating, now that's different

Fridge/freezer I need to keep the beer chilled

Home cinema ? I don't know what it is. So I think I could live without it.

Kindle/ E books. Now this is a little more difficult. I love books. The tactile experience; but, I also love my Kindle.
The sheer capacity, when travelling is enough. Sorry I can't leave that


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## Vronsky

TV -- I think that every time I watch the TV my IQ drops a couple of units.


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## Badinerie

dogen said:


> I couldn't live without the bras.


bad news for Fried Egg fans everywhere!


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## Marinera

Vronsky said:


> TV -- I think that every time I watch the TV my IQ drops a couple of units.


Yes I agree, it's teetering between frustrating and depressing more often than not


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## Lyricus

GreenMamba said:


> That sounds like it could apply to music as well. I don't produce anything when I listen to a Beethoven symphony.


For me listening to Beethoven is like reading a good novel. There's always something new to discover, and even so, it compels me toward creativity far more than even the best produced TV show could.


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## Ingélou

The trouble with technology is that it moves on so quickly - so older untechnological types like me can't cope. 

So for me 'doing without technology' might be Hobson's Choice. God forbid that I am ever widowed because I couldn't handle the computer, internet payments, or recording from the TV (if we get one again). Far less trouble if I go first!

My mother has dementia but lives in her own house nearby. We rent a TV for her, but find that it's often not usable for her because she's pressed something funny on the remote control. Taggart then has to fiddle about trying to find what the problem is. Why oh why can't they still produce simple TVs where you turn a knob to control the volume and press a button to change channels? They do still produce gramophones that play vinyl.


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## schigolch

They do:


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## Taggart

schigolch said:


> They do:


Almost! This looks definitely usable.

Trouble is that it's got an AV button which is one of the problems. The other is that these modern digital TVs have the radio channels included. One of the difficulties is that she presses channel down, usually instead of volume up or down, and ends up with the radio. At that point it's any button will do and then I have to clean up afterwards.


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## Headphone Hermit

Jeff W said:


> Television for me. The only thing I watch on the darned thing these days is 'Doctor Who'!


Only ever watched one episode of _Dr Who_ (when staying in a hotel on the edge of Chepstow and it was chucking it down outside) - I had no idea what was going on.


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## elgar's ghost

TV, computer, CD player and fridge/freezer are the only ones I would consider as necessities - I don't own a car or a Kindle, have no interest in home cinema and as regards central heating I have it but rarely use it even during the colder months. Other things I have done fine without include a coffee machine, smart phone, TV recorder, lawn mower and food blender.


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## Kivimees

elgars ghost said:


> Other things I have done fine without include ... food blender.


My experience is that any time saved using it is lost cleaning it.


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## Ingélou

I've never had a food blender - but I must admit I love having my electric whisk for eggs, cream or whatever. I have never been any good at 'rubbing fat to flour' - my hand movements are too heavy, my fingers too hot - so although you're not supposed to, I just whisk everything up electrically without laying a finger on it.
It works, and with no extra mess.


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## GreenMamba

Stick blenders are awesome. Mine has multiple attachments, so I can use it for beating eggs or whipping egg whites. Not too hard to clean, either.


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## TxllxT

/\/\/\/\ time for a new thread about 'joys in the kitchen'?


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## Ingélou

TxllxT said:


> /\/\/\/\ time for a new thread about 'joys in the kitchen'?


Not really - the electric whisk is the only cooking gadget I use. 
There's a washing machine in our kitchen which is very handy, although I could do without it if I had to.

I wonder why it is that 'doing without' modern gadgets or entertainments should make one feel virtuous? I hate housework, and I should be more appreciative of my electronic servants!


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## Wood

My equivalent of a blender is a soup maker. This is a great device and really makes healthy cooking so much less labour intensive. I also like my slow cooker, and a similar but non-electric thing I have in France which sits on hobs, gas or wood stoves or the middle of fires but is somehow non-stick.


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## SixFootScowl

Antiquarian said:


> I voted Television as the one bit of technology I could do without. Television is passive entertainment, in that you don't produce anything and respond to engineered stimulus from the producers of the media. The most pernicious form is the sit-com with the laugh track. You are expected to find funny what the writers think is funny. The present batch of documentaries are bereft of substantial meat, because they try to appeal to broad audiences. Reality shows reveal and revel in the banal. The broadcast news is awful, not only in the stories themselves, but in the transparent bias of the networks. Television is the great TIME WASTER, and in my rather sad opinion should be the entertainment of last resort for any intelligent human being. End of rant.


Frank Zappa summed it up well in his song, "I am the slime (You Tube)":



> I am gross and perverted
> Im obsessed n deranged
> I have existed for years
> But very little had changed
> I am the tool of the government
> And industry too
> For I am destined to rule
> And regulate you
> 
> I may be vile and pernicious
> But you can't look away
> I make you think Im delicious
> With the stuff that I say
> I am the best you can get
> Have you guessed me yet?
> I am the slime oozin out
> From your tv set
> 
> You will obey me while I lead you
> And eat the garbage that I feed you
> Until the day that we don't need you
> Don't got for help...no one will heed you
> Your mind is totally controlled
> It has been stuffed into my mold
> And you will do as you are told
> Until the rights to you are sold
> 
> That's right, folks..
> Don't touch that dial
> 
> Well, I am the slime from your video
> Oozin along on your livinroom floor
> 
> I am the slime from your video
> Cant stop the slime, people, lookit me go


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## Guest

I wish digital technology and the internet had never been invented! Together, they basically destroyed the music industry as we knew it. (less realistic sound, file sharing that ruined many record labels, and internet sales that have killed so many brick and mortar stores, both record and general music stores.) Now that the internet is an integral part of our lives, it would be very difficult to do without it (not to mention that this conversation couldn't exist!), though.


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## Taggart

Kontrapunctus said:


> I wish digital technology and the internet had never been invented! Together, they basically destroyed the music industry as we knew it. (less realistic sound, file sharing that ruined many record labels, and internet sales that have killed so many brick and mortar stores, both record and general music stores.) Now that the internet is an integral part of our lives, it would be very difficult to do without it (not to mention that this conversation couldn't exist!), though.


Pre internet, you went in to your local store and took what they offered. It was difficult to discover new people and new styles of music. I'm thinking, for example, of early music and HIP. Because people couldn't get information they couldn't even order the discs. Because there appeared to be no demand for the music it wasn't produced. Roll forward 50 years. You can now go on You Tube to find new music. You can search out new groups and explore new styles of music. Biber's Rosary Sonatas used to be something you might come across on a music history course. Now I can think of at least four different versions on CD that I've come across and I can search for more. The choice is immense.

OK a market is a means of bringing buyers and sellers together. The internet is superb for that. I want an out of print disc. There are sites which act as intermediaries between buyers and sellers. I bought a lovely version of Rachmaninov's Liturgy of St John Chrysostom through a French site which put me in touch with a Russian seller. Try that with bricks and mortar.

As people can see demand, they can remaster old material onto CD. There are some sites which will do almost publishing on demand - they'll make a (legitimate) re-issue of an old out of print CD. That only works with the information flows that the internet makes possible.


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## Ingélou

Contrasting couple of posts above, both making good points.

What about books? Has that situation been spoiled by the internet - for example, is it the end of scholarly books? Does the fact that anyone can self-publish mean it's harder for genuine talent to find a 'real' publisher? 

Just interested. 

On a selfish note, I do think that the internet has made it much easier to learn to play the violin, however. There are so many resources available - sheet music, tuition, sites offering advice, versions on YT from which one can learn by ear or to which one can play along.
It's lovely for me!


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## Guest

Well, both formats have plusses and minuses, but I certainly miss browsing through the bins: I made plenty of discoveries that way!


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## ArtMusic

Kindle. Never had one, probably never will.


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## Ukko

The poll ought to have been made multiple choice - because more than one item is do-without-able, and I would have been free to wax poessic.


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## SiegendesLicht

Ingélou said:


> On a selfish note, I do think that the internet has made it much easier to learn to play the violin, however. There are so many resources available - sheet music, tuition, sites offering advice, versions on YT from which one can learn by ear or to which one can play along.
> *It's lovely for me! *


Lovely for me as well. I've learned most of my German with the help of online resources and talking to people online, as opposed to shelling out hundreds of euros for classes. It is a great learning tool indeed. Sadly, too many people use it to share cat pictures or endless selfies rather than do something useful


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## Ingélou

Technology is certainly a sort of magic for musicians!


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## Belowpar

Pugg said:


> I could do without: Kindle / electronic books, also no air condition as this is not necessary in my country.
> And a double system ; heating / cooling are hardly sold in this country.
> 
> Computer....I skype with my grandparents in Manchester 3 /4 times a week.
> ( hey want to know if I don't grow a beard, that would kill them).
> No CD player, the thought alone drives me up the wall .


Does your car have a/c? I once had a lovely, but unreliable, old SAAB which used to get an air bubble in the heater control so you couldn't' turn it on. Soon learnt that you had to wear a coat in it in winter. By contrast we could not last 3 weeks in an average June when the ac packed up.


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## Belowpar

I love my Kindle! 

Much easier in bed than a book and you can read without waking your partner by turning the light on. Means lots of choice on holiday and I've never bothered with a tablet as it doubles up there too.


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## Marinera

For me, I like to read ebooks, but on computer - I don't have kindle or tablets. But I can't imagine reading ebooks on vacation. So, perversley I have to lug books when I go to holidays. They take 1/3 of my luggage, and I try to limit my cd discs, no digital versions or mp3's for me here too. Last week I remembered just in time to order books for my holiday. Can't imagine reading from kinde or such on holidays, a physical book is much nicer, even on a normal day those devices look ridiculously tiny, and on holidays with my luck some colony of ants will carry it to their den as a trophy.


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## SixFootScowl

A very appropriate quote for this thread (from Walden, a book by Henry David Thoreau):


> "A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone."


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## geralmar

SiegendesLicht said:


> Lovely for me as well. I've learned most of my German with the help of online resources and talking to people online, as opposed to shelling out hundreds of euros for classes. It is a great learning tool indeed. Sadly, too many people use it to share cat pictures or endless selfies rather than do something useful


What's wrong with cat pictures?


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## znapschatz

Kivimees said:


> Untrue. I have two dishwashers at home - I call them 'the left hand' and 'the right hand' and I would never give them up!


We have one dishwasher. Me, both right hand and left. Division of labor.


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## znapschatz

geralmar said:


> What's wrong with cat pictures?


There aren't enough of them.


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## Marinera

znapschatz said:


> There aren't enough of them.


Then probably you'd be interested in 'Some Very Interesting Cats Perhaps You Weren't Aware Of' by Doogie Horner










My sister is a cat person, so she's getting this book for Christmas


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## SiegendesLicht

geralmar said:


> What's wrong with cat pictures?


Nothing wrong with cats or cat pictures per se. It's just the mindless proliferation of them that irks me.

Just recently our American friends (well, who else?) have blessed the world with a new stupidity called Pokemon go. Running around the neighborhood trying to catch some pixels on a screen... wow, so enlightening. The ultimate attempt to create smartphone-driven zombies, if you ask me. Especially since they have gone so far as to place some of these virtual pixels in a holocaust museum.

I hate the modernity/Pax Americana with a blackest hatred, and it grows ever blacker the more I learn about things like this.


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## GreenMamba

SiegendesLicht said:


> Nothing wrong with cats or cat pictures per se. It's just the mindless proliferation of them that irks me.
> 
> Just recently our American friends (well, who else?) have blessed the world with a new stupidity called Pokemon go. Running around the neighborhood trying to catch some pixels on a screen... wow, so enlightening. The ultimate attempt to create smartphone-driven zombies, if you ask me. Especially since they have gone so far as to place some of these virtual pixels in a holocaust museum.
> 
> I hate the modernity/Pax Americana with a blackest hatred, and it grows ever blacker the more I learn about things like this.


God forbid, people have mindless fun.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Definitely without electronic books (I've got a huge library at home and also love borrowing books from public library) and TV. I cut cable 5 years ago and don't miss it a bit.

Life without a computer would be quite um different, to say the least, which is quite interesting given that 20 years ago my life without computer was perfectly fine.


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## Xenakiboy

I *Hate* television, so I choose that. It's something I don't want or need.

Computer is a must though, for many reasons and as a ambitious aspiring composer, paper alone won't work to notate all my compositions! :lol:

In the fast-paced world of jobs and employment, cars or some kind of transport is also a requirement.

Don't need a kindle.

Then, home cinema which replaces the only thing that is occasionally good about TV, occasionally.

Air conditioning and heating is also very important, unless you want to catch a cold or get sick in winter.


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## SiegendesLicht

GreenMamba said:


> God forbid, people have mindless fun.


I am 29 now, with a bit of luck I will live for maybe another 50 years, and I still feel there is not enough time to do all the worthwhile things: listen to all the classical music, visit all the places, read all the great books I would like to. This is the only life we have. Why anybody would waste it on "mindless fun", is beyond my understanding.


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## Ingélou

SiegendesLicht said:


> I am 29 now, with a bit of luck I will live for maybe another 50 years, and I still feel there is not enough time to do all the worthwhile things: listen to all the classical music, visit all the places, read all the great books I would like to. This is the only life we have. Why anybody would waste it on "mindless fun", is beyond my understanding.


I do hate the idea of hiding a trivial item in a holocaust museum - that is 'mindless fun' at its most distasteful.

But on the other hand, mindless fun has its place: we all need to relax & do something silly from time to time, so that the mind can function properly. When the mind is basking, it gets new energy and sometimes the best ideas pop up when we're not consciously thinking of them.

This concept was known as long ago as the second century. I came across a story in one of the apocryphal gospels when I was doing my MA thesis on religious traditional ballads which use such esoteric lore (The Bitter Withy, St Stephen and Herod, The Carnal and the Crane, The Cherry Tree Carol, Judas, The Holy Well, The Dessexshire Ballad).

St John as an old man on Paphos was rebuked for idly stroking a partridge; he replied by showing that if a bow was kept strung without ever being loosed, eventually the bowstring would snap.

I googled and was able to find a link just now:
http://thecripplegate.com/category/history/page/7/ ('On Relaxing The Bow')


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## znapschatz

SiegendesLicht said:


> I am 29 now, with a bit of luck I will live for maybe another 50 years, and I still feel there is not enough time to do all the worthwhile things: listen to all the classical music, visit all the places, read all the great books I would like to. This is the only life we have. Why anybody would waste it on "mindless fun", is beyond my understanding.


My opinion is that "mindless fun" (in moderation) is not a waste. The conscious mind get cluttered by numerous bits and pieces generated by the thought processes, and periodically needs a good airing out (in moderation.) A little fun and frolic (in moderation) helps tidy things up so a person can get back to the thought processes refreshed and reinvigorated. I like my mindless fun (in moderation) and think it's good for me. :lol::trp::cheers::kiss:


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## Dim7

SiegendesLicht said:


> Nothing wrong with cats or cat pictures per se. It's just the mindless proliferation of them that irks me.
> 
> Just recently our American friends (well, who else?) have blessed the world with a new stupidity called Pokemon go. Running around the neighborhood trying to catch some pixels on a screen... wow, so enlightening. The ultimate attempt to create smartphone-driven zombies, if you ask me. Especially since they have gone so far as to place some of these virtual pixels in a holocaust museum.
> 
> I hate the modernity/Pax Americana with a blackest hatred, and it grows ever blacker the more I learn about things like this.


I have played Pokemon as a child but I didn't know anything about Pokemon Go except that it is a Pokemon game for smartphones. Apparently the game makes it appear as if the Pokemon were in the real world through your smartphone. Now I'm not very up to date on newer video games but what I am familiar with have not been really all that different from older ones except for the improved graphics, so this "augmented reality" thing I find actually kind of impressive. Much more impressive than your knee-jerk bashing of everything American, in fact. What other things do you have the blackest hatred for, in addition to video games that actually encourage outdoor activity? Chess? Golf?

It is also interesting that when it comes to Wagner's anti-semitic writings, none of that "matters" and we don't really have anything in common with Jewish people anyway, but suddenly the sanctity of Holocaust museums becomes important when it can be used for the most far-fetched anti-American rants.


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## Ingélou

'Mindless fun' has never been dependent on technology. It has the potential to help, by relaxing and refreshing, and to harm the psyche or the ethos in society too. I think of the Roman Amphitheatre and the eighteenth-century recreational tours of Bedlam.


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## SiegendesLicht

Ingélou said:


> But on the other hand, mindless fun has its place: we all need to relax & do something silly from time to time, so that the mind can function properly. When the mind is basking, it gets new energy and sometimes the best ideas pop up when we're not consciously thinking of them.
> 
> This concept was known as long ago as the second century. I came across a story in one of the apocryphal gospels when I was doing my MA thesis on religious traditional ballads which use such esoteric lore (The Bitter Withy, St Stephen and Herod, The Carnal and the Crane, The Cherry Tree Carol, Judas, The Holy Well, The Dessexshire Ballad).
> 
> St John as an old man on Paphos was rebuked for idly stroking a partridge; he replied by showing that if a bow was kept strung without ever being loosed, eventually the bowstring would snap.


Communing with nature, as in your example with the partridge, is not mindless at all. Nature is the greatest healer for the soul. And it is real, the ultimate reality maybe. It is the exact opposite of hiding in artificial electronic illusions.


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## SiegendesLicht

Dim7 said:


> What other things do you have the blackest hatred for, in addition to video games that actually encourage outdoor activity? Chess? Golf?
> 
> It is also interesting that when it comes to Wagner's anti-semitic writings, none of that "matters" and we don't really have anything in common with Jewish people anyway, but suddenly the sanctity of Holocaust museums becomes important when it can be used for the most far-fetched anti-American rants.


Chess is just the opposite of "mindless", and I quite admire people who are skilled at it. Golf at least provides some physical training.

Ah yes, and I appreciate your interest in my old posts


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## Kivimees

When I'm in the mood for some mindless fun, I usually reach for my bottle opener.


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## SixFootScowl

SiegendesLicht said:


> Golf at least provides some physical training.


Yes it does but one of my favorite quotes that I can't remember the author of is about golf and expresses my feelings exactly:

"Golf is a good walk wasted."


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## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> Yes it does but one of my favorite quotes that I can't remember the author of is about golf and expresses my feelings exactly:
> 
> "Golf is a good walk wasted."


Mark Twain wrote that.


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## Pugg

Television ahead by two on: Kindle / electronic books .


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## Ingélou

Siegendeslicht, thanks for letting me know about the Pokemon fashion. It's getting everywhere & is now Big Time in Britain too. 

Today the National Trust is putting details of the game on its Facebook page, and I read in yesterday's paper that a hospital had adopted the scheme to get its patients mobile, only to have to state firmly that A & E (Accidents & Emergency) was out of bounds for the game as people kept wandering in & hampering the work of the emergency doctors!

It really does seem to me as if 'you couldn't make it up'!


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