# Placido Domingo accused of sexual harassment



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainmen...era-legend-domingo-sexual-harassment-64937551


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Well, this is the most critical and seriously detailed article I saw yet; newspaper articles here are much more subdued and mentioned less material.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

And here I thought that Domingo only held second place to Pinza's gold statuette. Live and learn.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Hey, not to excuse him, but why not go back 50 or 60 years? How about in a former incarnation?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> Hey, not to excuse him, but why not go back 50 or 60 years? How about in a former incarnation?


It wouldn't matter. The behavior referenced in the article would have been unacceptable 60 years ago, too.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Anyone now looking to dump their Placido Domingo recordings can send me a private message.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

WildThing said:


> Anyone now looking to dump their Placido Domingo recordings can send me a private message.


I don't have many to dump - I've never been a fan. I think that Tannhauser is the only Domingo recording I've kept.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> Hey, not to excuse him, but why not go back 50 or 60 years? How about in a former incarnation?


What former incarnation? Don Giovanni?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I could not help but chuckle at the headline I saw on Dutch TV (translated here in English).

Placido Domingo accused of sexual misconduct - who is he exactly?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I had heard he was quite ladies man and obviously has taken advantage of his position if these allegations are true.

His response tell me they may be as he is using the well worn excuse that 50 years ago standards were different.

Im surprised that he would need to co-erce and intimidate any women in his prime since he is obviously quite a heart throb and I would have thought he would have had no trouble getting what he wants.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2019)

We like to pretend that this was all acceptable x number of years ago. It wasn't. It never has been. Decent people have always recognized how sleazy it is - but there was in those days a critical mass of people willing to cover it up. If it were acceptable then, these men would not have tried to keep it quiet. While there is certainly an opportunity for this to go too far, and for people to be falsely accused, the egregiousness of this type of behavior, so long unpunished, allows perhaps a certain degree of backlash now that should be tolerated. By all means, he should be able to state his case, give his rebuttal. But if it turns out he did this, then his station in life should have no bearing. We are passed the days when people like Roman Polanski - a fugitive on the run to avoid jail time for sexually violating a teenage girl - get awards and people applaud them, and justify their evils because of some notion of their artistic contributions washing away those sins.

Sadly, this kind of predatory sexual activity is being exposed as all too common, not in any particular group, but rather in men who reach a certain level of power in whatever field they find themselves in. I hope any who have done this and have thus far gotten away with it are currently crapping their pants. It's time for them to experience the fear for a change.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

stomanek said:


> Im surprised that he would need to co-erce and intimidate any women in his prime since he is obviously quite a heart throb and I would have thought he would have had no trouble getting what he wants.


You're surprised the women were resistant to his unwanted slobbery kisses and groping, trying to catch them naked in their dressing rooms, and all around flagrant impropriety? You hopefully realize most professional women don't view that as irresistible heart throb behavior...


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2019)

Minor Sixthist said:


> You're surprised the women were resistant to his unwanted slobbery kisses and groping, trying to catch them naked in their dressing rooms, and all around flagrant impropriety? I don't know, most professional women don't view that as very heart throb behavior...


Agreed - for some reason people think that because we judge a man to be particularly attractive and/or powerful, that the average woman swoons at his sight and will gladly yield to his every desire. How else have these guys gotten away with it? This isn't the animal kingdom. Women don't yield themselves to the alpha male who defeats all others and then overpowers her. We work on a system of voluntary partnering - anything other than voluntary falls under the category of sexual assault.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

He's just a method actor. He was getting into character as Scarpia, Don G, Pinkerton, Almaviva and the Duke of Mantua.

Man, this list is pretty long already and I'm sure I'm missing a bunch.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

DrMike said:


> Agreed - for some reason people think that because we judge a man to be particularly attractive and/or powerful, that the average woman swoons at his sight and will gladly yield to his every desire. How else have these guys gotten away with it? This isn't the animal kingdom. Women don't yield themselves to the alpha male who defeats all others and then overpowers her. We work on a system of voluntary partnering - anything other than voluntary falls under the category of sexual assault.


Yup. It's must be kind of like a fantasy some men have, a fantasy of what they believe is a woman's fantasy. It's insulting and embarrassing that anyone thinks the victims of actual harassment find sordid and nasty behavior attractive, unless of course the harassment went far enough to give them Stockholm Syndrome. I wish it didn't come as a surprise to some: yes, plenty of women out there would actually just like to carry on doing their jobs.


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> I could not help but chuckle at the headline I saw on Dutch TV (translated here in English).
> 
> Placido Domingo accused of sexual misconduct - who is he exactly?


Or more precisely, "who is he really "?

What will come out when the investigations around de billionaire starts.How many "respectable "people will fall down.People were 
angry with the concealment of sexual abuse in the church, you see that the same thing actually happens in the so-called secular world.
It seems that power,and surely Domingo had power gives you the idea that you can do almost everything.


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## ECraigR (Jun 25, 2019)

As soon as I saw the headline I said to myself, yeah that makes sense.

Powerful men always feel like they can do whatever they want, and he’s been powerful for some time now.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

stomanek said:


> I had heard he was quite ladies man and obviously has taken advantage of his position if these allegations are true.
> 
> His response tell me they may be as he is using the well worn excuse that 50 years ago standards were different.
> 
> Im surprised that he would need to co-erce and intimidate any women in his prime since he is obviously quite a heart throb and I would have thought he would have had no trouble getting what he wants.


"Ladies man", huh. "Coercer" is what the euphemism really means in many cases, isn't it.

These kinds of guys don't "co-erce and intimidate" because they have no other options for romance, they do it for the thrill of having that kind of power over people.

My biggest disappointment was James Levine. He always seemed humble when he mouthed thank-yous in response to audience applause.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> And here I thought that Domingo only held second place to Pinza's gold statuette. Live and learn.


According to what I've heard, Ezio Pinza was another famous womanizer. (I guess that's what you're referring to with your post?)


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Without excusing anything Domingo did, I can see pretty easily how the more power one has (in any given field), the greater is the temptation to abuse that power.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

This is a big story here with a major TV news segment tonight. Domingo is General Director of the LA Opera, which has announced (unsurprisingly) that it has launched a board-level investigation into the charges.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> Without excusing anything Domingo did, I can see pretty easily how the more power one has (in any given field), the greater is the temptation to abuse that power.


And the greater is the temptation to do good works.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Philadelphia and San Francisco have canceled his upcoming guest shots.
The Met is going to watch what LA Opera's outside investigators come up with before rushing to dethrone him.
And what of his baby, Operalia?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'd be very depressed about this is if there were not so many things to be even more depressed about.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I'd be very depressed about this is if there were not so many things to be even more depressed about.


Don't get hung up on it. The place for that is suicide watch, apparently..


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

With the bombshells going off around him, let's not forget him at his best and at the height of his fame. His contributions have been monumental:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/jul/18/placido-domingo-profile-peter-conrad.

He's still married and I wonder what his wife will have to say about his indiscretions and disclosures. When someone is this famous it's sometimes hard for them to imagine that someone else would not welcome their sexual advances and attention. But the world has changed and it's important to keep up with them or one could suffer from a catastrophic fall from grace. The eternal feminine draws us on.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> He's still married and I wonder what his wife will say about these recent *indiscretions* and disclosures. When someone is this famous it's sometimes *hard for them to imagine* that someone else would not welcome their sexual advances and *attention.* But *the world has changed and it's important to keep up *with them or suffer a catastrophic fall from grace.


Domingo is an intelligent man. How much "imagination" does he need to consider the possibility that young women might not be aching to jump into bed with him, especially after they repeatedly resist his "attention"? Does acting as if you have a right to use women at will, and then to penalize them for refusing to be used, indicate a failure to "keep up with a changing world," or does it indicate that you're a self-important jerk?

An "indiscretion" is something done too openly that should be kept more private. I don't think that that's what Mrs. Domingo will call her husband's using his privileged status to force himself on aspiring and hopeful mezzo-sopranos. It's possible that she is aware and forgiving, or at least tolerant, of his character flaws. She's entitled to love and accept him in spite of them. But let's not use euphemisms to whitewash what is simple sexual harassment, intimidation and molestation. If it's really taken eight decades of living in the world for Domingo to figure out that that's what he's guilty of - if he _has_ figured it out - then a good hard fall from grace may be just the thing he needs.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> With the bombshells going off around him, *let's not forget him at his best* and at the height of his fame. His contributions have been monumental.


I'd be inclined to say, "Yes, let's", if it were not for my instinct to say first, "Let's wait for a judgement".


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

They protected him because he brought in the money. Now they deserve to lose a lot of money!, and so does he. 

This should be a lesson for the enablers, in any field. If you think someone is above the law, how long can it last? I've seen it play out in university project funding, many many secrets.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Minor Sixthist said:


> You're surprised the women were resistant to his unwanted slobbery kisses and groping, trying to catch them naked in their dressing rooms, and all around flagrant impropriety? You hopefully realize most professional women don't view that as irresistible heart throb behavior...


Not that - Im sure he had plenty of willing takers but he evidently thought he was so wonderful that he could get away with anything.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Does this mean we stop listening to Domingo?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

"Where there's Placido, there's Peligro". You were warned.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Open Book said:


> "Ladies man", huh. "Coercer" is what the euphemism really means in many cases, isn't it.
> 
> These kinds of guys don't "co-erce and intimidate" because they have no other options for romance, they do it for the thrill of having that kind of power over people.
> 
> My biggest disappointment was James Levine. *He always seemed humble when he mouthed thank-yous in response to audience applause.*


That kind of hypocrisy would be truly laughable except for the suffering behind the sham humility.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Luchesi said:


> They protected him because he brought in the money. * Now they deserve to lose a lot of money!, and so does he. *
> 
> This should be a lesson for the enablers, in any field. If you think someone is above the law, how long can it last? I've seen it play out in university project funding, many many secrets.


He wont lose money over this.

royalties from his recording will continue to flood in

shame he is a tenor he would have played a superb don giovanni


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

stomanek said:


> He wont lose money over this.
> 
> royalties from his recording will continue to flood in
> 
> *shame he is a tenor *he would have played a superb don giovanni


Actually he seems to be taking baritone roles one after the other these days. Nabucco, then conte di Luna then Macbeth... even though he sounds more tenor than ever


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Merl said:


> "Where there's Placido, there's Peligro". You were warned.


OMG they knew about him this whole time!:lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

stomanek said:


> Does this mean we stop listening to Domingo?


And if we apply this principle across the board, who do we have to listen to? Composers too?


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## brunumb (Dec 8, 2017)

I wasn't aware that he had been tried and found guilty.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

brunumb said:


> I wasn't aware that he had been tried and found guilty.


True as this me be, he did apologize for his actions.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Rogerx said:


> True as this me be, he did apologize for his actions.


Essentially "I'm sorry if anyone was distressed by my predatory behavior".


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

stomanek said:


> Does this mean we stop listening to Domingo?


That's up to the individual. As for me, I have so many Placido Domingo recordings (the vast majority of them made well before the late 1980's, when the alleged incidents took place--when he wasn't in a position of power but was basically another singer on the Met roster, albeit a famous one) that it would be ridiculous of me to toss them all because Domingo eventually did some bad things. I mean, I haven't tossed any of my James Levine recordings, and frankly he has always creeped me out far more than Domingo ever has.

Edited to add: From a purely vocal standpoint, Domingo should have retired at least 10-15 years ago.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Tuoksu said:


> Actually he seems to be taking baritone roles one after the other these days. Nabucco, then conte di Luna then Macbeth... even though he sounds more tenor than ever


He sucks as a baritone.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Bonetan said:


> https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainmen...era-legend-domingo-sexual-harassment-64937551


yawn, he was bound for this, a sure victim of yet another witch hunt, but of most interest is who's next?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> yawn, he was bound for this, a sure victim of yet another witch hunt, but of most interest is who's next?


its far from a watch hunt

multiple women have come forward - many anonymous as they work in the business and fear they could lose their careers.

Im afraid you are empowering male sexual predators in positions of power and putting women at risk with your dismissive comments attempting to trivialise a very serious issue.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I'd be very depressed about this is if there were not so many things to be even more depressed about.


What things? (just teasin')


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

stomanek said:


> its far from a watch hunt
> 
> multiple women have come forward - many anonymous as they work in the business and fear they could lose their careers.
> 
> Im afraid you are empowering male sexual predators in positions of power and putting women at risk with your dismissive comments attempting to trivialise a very serious issue.


How can you defend yourself against an anonymous accuser?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> How can you defend yourself against an anonymous accuser?


Thats not the point.

He is not going to be criminally charged.

Philadelphia Orchestra have withdrawn an invitation so give the allegations some credibility and one named woman has come forward.

There may be more like with Jimmy Saville - once the floodgates opened more women came forward.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

DavidA said:


> And if we apply this principle across the board, who do we have to listen to? Composers too?


It wont stop me as things stand. He seems to have taken unwelcome liberties with women - he's still a great tenor.

Michael Jackson abused children - I must admit I could not listen to any of his stuff when the truth came out about what he had been up to at his neverland theme park.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

A lot of the opera recordings I purchased when I was young were based on singer. For opera's with a tenor as the main role I was usually looking for Pavarotti as a kid because I liked his voice most. Domingo was usually around my third choice so while I do not have loads of recordings of him, I do have a few. Will I stop listening to Domingo? No. I will listen to him just the same as I do James Levine (whom I will still recommend for a Brahms symphony cycle until my dying day). There have been lots of artists who were lousy people throughout history but it doesn't weigh on my opinion for their art.

As far as Mr. Domingo, we'll see what if anything occurs in a court of law. I have so many different thoughts on these matters from all different aspects and perspectives. At the end of the day for me personally, the only thing I can do is judge for myself whether I want to be a person like that or not, and for myself I choose the later.

Not totally unrelated but I also read an article the other day putting a lot of these things in the perspective of being due to our genetics. They've found more than a dozen different genes that lead to impulse control and addiction type behaviors where the person can't help but feel compelled to do certain things. They found when testing Scandinavian people (who always seem to be ranked "happiest" in the world in many polls) they have fewer instances of carrying a serotonin receptor gene that's been linked to depression. And with just a brain scan, scientists can with 72% accuracy predict what political affiliation you are likely to be associated with as conservatives tend to have a bigger amygdala, the part of the brain that is activated in fearful situations, while liberals often have a larger anterior cingulate cortex, the area involved in analyzing instinctive thoughts.

I'm not trying to give an excuse or anything to the like, but things like that do make me wonder if Mr. Domingo (as well as many other people who were lousy individuals) were perhaps predisposed to act a certain way when given the chance based purely on genetic makeup...random thoughts.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I'm disappointed - thought he was better than this - but not exactly surprised. He creeped me out in the Salzburg Trovatore, I was like, ew, get off Netrebko, you old lecher.

I grew up on his recordings and videos, but his recent crimes against baritone roles already eroded my respect.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

There are of course safeguarding issues for organisations that Domingo is going to work with. 

In a court of law standards of evidence are much higher than in organisation which have to make safeguarding decisions. So it may be enough that there are multiple allegations outstanding for an opera company, for example, to make the decision that they need to protect their female staff against a singer who is alleged to have sexually harassed women.

This looks like an end to his career.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

stomanek said:


> This looks like an end to his career.


A career that, on artistic merit, should have ended two decades ago.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> A career that, on artistic merit, should have ended two decades ago.


Its not the first time that a great artist has hung on to the bitter end.

On another note thank goodness Pav's reputation is intact - all he seems to have had a passion for besides music is food.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

It's not the miserable journalistic standards of the tabloids that is the background for the article, but more acknowledged media, which makes the content of the allegations more likely.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2019)

I just did a quick search and all I have of him is the Kleiber La Traviata. Given that I am not a large opera fan, this wasn't going to be a big issue.

I hope that he gets a thorough vetting, and that he is free to offer whatever defense he would like. However, if the allegations are true, that is likely to make things even worse for him - more will likely come out, so if he is guilty, I suspect he's going to want to put this to rest very quickly. 

If it is true, I suspect that he will come out with the standard, "yes, this happened, but I remember it as being consensual." But that line carries less and less weight with me in these situations. As with so many of these cases that turn out to be true, more often than not these were open secrets. Some women may very well have "consented," but only because it had already been made abundantly clear that, in order to further their career, they had to make nice with this bigwig or that bigwig. So yes, consensual in a certain respect, just like the shopkeeper may "consensually" pay the local mafia thug for "protection."


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2019)

stomanek said:


> Its not the first time that a great artist has hung on to the bitter end.
> 
> On another note thank goodness Pav's reputation is intact - all he seems to have had a passion for besides music is food.


Creepy to think - did he hang on longer because of what he viewed as "fringe benefits" that we are talking about that would have dried up once he could no longer offer lucrative career opportunities? Perhaps that is pushing it too far. Then again, if the allegations are true, such a revelation wouldn't surprise me too terribly.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

joen_cph said:


> It's not the miserable journalistic standards of the tabloids that is the background for the article, but more acknowledged media, which makes the content of the allegations more likely.


and the fact that 2 major organisations in the USA have cancelled his engagements

some quotes from the news

*the Philadelphia Orchestra and San Francisco Opera announced they would cancel upcoming performances featuring the opera singer.*

*The Philadelphia Orchestra also withdrew its invitation for Domingo to appear at its opening night concert next month, saying: "We are committed to providing a safe, supportive, respectful, and appropriate environment for the orchestra and staff, for collaborating artists and composers, and for our audiences and communities."*

*the San Francisco Opera, the company is "committed to its strong anti-sexual harassment policy and requires all company members to adhere to the highest standards of professional conduct."*

However - he has many loyal friends in the opera world and no doubt will find venues.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

DrMike said:


> Creepy to think - did he hang on longer because of what he viewed as "fringe benefits" that we are talking about that would have dried up once he could no longer offer lucrative career opportunities? Perhaps that is pushing it too far. Then again, if the allegations are true, such a revelation wouldn't surprise me too terribly.


fringe benefits - maybe - he may at least enjoy being around beautiful young women - even if he is now too old to really take advantage, I assume.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

DrMike said:


> I just did a quick search and all I have of him is the Kleiber La Traviata. Given that I am not a large opera fan, this wasn't going to be a big issue.
> 
> I hope that he gets a thorough vetting, and that he is free to offer whatever defense he would like. However, if the allegations are true, that is likely to make things even worse for him - more will likely come out, so if he is guilty, I suspect he's going to want to put this to rest very quickly.
> 
> If it is true, I suspect that he will come out with the standard, "yes, this happened, but I remember it as being consensual." But that line carries less and less weight with me in these situations. As with so many of these cases that turn out to be true, more often than not these were open secrets. Some women may very well have "consented,"* but only because it had already been made abundantly clear that, in order to further their career, *they had to make nice with this bigwig or that bigwig. So yes, consensual in a certain respect, just like the shopkeeper may "consensually" pay the local mafia thug for "protection."


That is what is being said more or less. Plus abused women too afraid to speak out against such a powerful figure.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

stomanek said:


> However - he has many loyal friends in the opera world and no doubt will find venues.


I think not. At 78, he has little to offer musically. For the past decade, he has been asked to perform because he puts butts in the seats. With these allegations in play, I don't think too many people will be quite as enthusiastic about attending his performances.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

stomanek said:


> Thats not the point.
> 
> He is not going to be criminally charged.
> 
> ...


So you would not mind if someone went to your boss and made an anonymous complaint against you.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> So you would not mind if someone went to your boss and made an anonymous complaint against you.


If I was innocent - I would feel aggrieved and angry anon or not.

If I was guilty - I would think justice had caught up with me.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

realdealblues said:


> A lot of the opera recordings I purchased when I was young were based on singer. For opera's with a tenor as the main role I was usually looking for Pavarotti as a kid because I liked his voice most. Domingo was usually around my third choice so while I do not have loads of recordings of him, I do have a few. Will I stop listening to Domingo? No. I will listen to him just the same as I do James Levine (whom I will still recommend for a Brahms symphony cycle until my dying day). There have been lots of artists who were lousy people throughout history but it doesn't weigh on my opinion for their art.
> 
> As far as Mr. Domingo, we'll see what if anything occurs in a court of law. I have so many different thoughts on these matters from all different aspects and perspectives. At the end of the day for me personally, the only thing I can do is judge for myself whether I want to be a person like that or not, and for myself I choose the later.
> 
> ...


Interesting--the bolded part especially.

I don't know much about genetics, but I am of Italian descent (on both sides of my family), have been to Italy multiple times, and...let's just say that it's a cultural "thing" there to be macho and forward with regards to women. I don't imagine it's much different in Spain or Mexico or the other Latin countries. I still remember, when I was 21, I was riding on a bus in Florence and some random guy stuck his hand up my skirt. I yelled something scolding in Italian (I can't remember exactly what words I used), everyone stared, and he stopped immediately. That's when I realized that some of these guys are all braggadocio and little else.

Of course, the man who groped me wasn't the head of an opera company, with the power to hire and fire, the way Domingo was in the 1990's. I'd always assumed he'd had (consensual) extramarital affairs (a common, human failing), but abusing his power as an opera director by forcing himself on women is a more serious matter. Ideally, I'd like the case to be settled in a court of law rather than by way of gossip or tabloid journalism, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

Edited to add: Rereading the article, I think that those women who ran from Domingo and rejected his advances did exactly the right thing, and it comforts me to know that Domingo didn't pursue the matter after they'd repulsed him. Unsavory as Domingo's behavior was, he's clearly not in the same category as Harvey Weinstein or Charlie Rose.

To me, some of Domingo's behavior sounds like that of the stereotypical, slightly boneheaded Latin opera tenor who assumes every soprano in the company wants him and him alone.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Barelytenor said:


> He sucks as a baritone.


You have no idea how much I wished Quinn Kelsey or some other young, up-and-coming baritone had sung Domingo's role of Miller in last year's LUISA MILLER at the Met.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

realdealblues said:


> A lot of the opera recordings I purchased when I was young were based on singer. For opera's with a tenor as the main role I was usually looking for Pavarotti as a kid because I liked his voice most. Domingo was usually around my third choice so while I do not have loads of recordings of him, I do have a few. Will I stop listening to Domingo? No. I will listen to him just the same as I do James Levine (whom I will still recommend for a Brahms symphony cycle until my dying day). There have been lots of artists who were lousy people throughout history but it doesn't weigh on my opinion for their art.
> 
> As far as Mr. Domingo, we'll see what if anything occurs in a court of law. I have so many different thoughts on these matters from all different aspects and perspectives. At the end of the day for me personally, the only thing I can do is judge for myself whether I want to be a person like that or not, and for myself I choose the later.
> 
> ...


do you have a link to this study - would love to see it.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> You have no idea how much I wished Quinn Kelsey or some other young, up-and-coming baritone had sung Domingo's role of Miller in last year's LUISA MILLER at the Met.


Yeah imagine these washed out old stars trading on former glories are keeping out young talents.

pure egotistical greed


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

stomanek said:


> Yeah imagine these washed out old stars trading on former glories are keeping out young talents.
> 
> pure egotistical greed


I mean, if he could have sung it adequately, I would have been appeased (while still wishing for an actual baritone), but Domingo just didn't have much tone left to fill out the music. During his Act I double aria, I kept trying to block Domingo's voice out and imagine that of Sherrill Milnes circa 1979 in its place.:lol:


----------



## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

stomanek said:


> multiple women have come forward


its merely those he once regected want revenge.



stomanek said:


> you are empowering male sexual predators in positions of power


but he does not look a sex predator.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> *its merely those he once regected want revenge.*
> 
> but he does not look a sex predator.


where is your evidence of this?

appearances can be deceptive.

he always looked like a gent to me - but then I was not at the receiving end of his unwanted advances.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> but he does not look a sex predator.


What does a sex predator look like? The hunchback of Notre Dame?

Nice people have dark secrets. This one wasn't even a secret, apparently.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

stomanek said:


> where is your evidence of this?
> 
> appearances can be deceptive.
> 
> he always looked like a gent to me - but then I was not at the receiving end of his unwanted advances.


There has been false accusations before, the Duke lacrosse team and Tawana Brawley.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

There were notable false accusations in the recent Supreme Court confirmation hearings. One was submitted anonymously by an older woman who had never actually met the candidate at all. She was threatened with criminal prosecution when the truth came out, but I don't know what ever happened with that.

Added: I refreshed my memory a bit and see that the third of four women to come forward with their stories was also referred, along with her attorney Michael Avenatti (surprise!) to the DOJ for possible charges relating to "conspiracy, false statements and obstruction of Congress".

The FBI was unable to find a scrap of confirmation of any of the claims, even from supposed eyewitnesses named by the accusers. It's not always true that where there's smoke, there's fire.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> There has been false accusations before, the Duke lacrosse team and Tawana Brawley.


Riveting argument. There have also been powerful affluent men who have sexually assaulted people before. Dutoit, Levine, Kevin Spacey, Harvey Weinstein, R. Kelly, Jeffrey Epstein, long ellipsis...


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Minor Sixthist said:


> Riveting argument. There have also been powerful affluent men who have sexually assaulted people before. Dutoit, Levine, Kevin Spacey, Harvey Weinstein, R. Kelly, Jeffrey Epstein, long ellipsis...


The charges were dropped on Kevin Spacey.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> The charges were dropped on Kevin Spacey.


Tell me all the great things about the rest.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sometimes motivations may be less than totally noble. Now that Epstein is dead (and unable to defend himself, if indeed he ever could) the first big civil lawsuit demanding $$$ has been filed against his estate and certain associates who assisted in his nefarious enterprises. Be assured there will be many more, each with its "Mr. 30%" assiduously managing the proceedings.

US law will likely rule that these young girls, were it not for Mr. Epstein's intervention, would not have become prostitutes. But of course hundreds and perhaps thousands of underage girls become prostitutes in this country every day, and it seems to me that there is often at least a modicum of free will involved.​


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> *Sometimes motivations may be less than totally noble.* Now that Epstein is dead (and unable to defend himself, if indeed he ever could) the first big civil lawsuit demanding $$$ has been filed against his estate and certain associates who assisted in his nefarious enterprises. Be assured there will be many more, each with its "Mr. 30%" assiduously managing the proceedings.
> 
> *US law will likely rule that these young girls, were it not for Mr. Epstein's intervention, would not have become prostitutes. But of course hundreds and perhaps thousands of underage girls become prostitutes in this country every day, and it seems to me that there is often at least a modicum of free will involved.*


Really, should we be attempting to measure a sixteen-year-old girl's "modicum of free will," or the "nobility of her motives," when she seeks an action against her procurer or rapist? There are things adults should not be permitted to do to children, regardless of the children's supposedly free will.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Really, should we be attempting to measure a sixteen-year-old girl's "modicum of free will," or the "nobility of her motives," when she seeks an action against her procurer or rapist? There are things adults should not be permitted to do to children, regardless of the children's supposedly free will.


Agree totally. But when these teen vixens come seeking millions of dollars years later for the wrongs done them, how should we judge this? And to make the choice starker, let's say 14 years old.

Remember, they were initially offered money for providing Epstein with "erotic massages" and accepted. There was never, that I've heard, coercion.​


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Agree totally. But when these teen vixens come seeking millions of dollars years later for the wrongs done them, how should we judge this?


I try not to, if I don't know the girls or how their experiences affected them. I wouldn't call them "vixens."


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

stomanek said:


> where is your evidence of this?


where's *your* evidence he groped anyone?

i for one did not see him doing that, did you?


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2019)

KenOC said:


> Sometimes motivations may be less than totally noble. Now that Epstein is dead (and unable to defend himself, if indeed he ever could) the first big civil lawsuit demanding $$$ has been filed against his estate and certain associates who assisted in his nefarious enterprises. Be assured there will be many more, each with its "Mr. 30%" assiduously managing the proceedings.
> 
> US law will likely rule that these young girls, were it not for Mr. Epstein's intervention, would not have become prostitutes. But of course hundreds and perhaps thousands of underage girls become prostitutes in this country every day, and it seems to me that there is often at least a modicum of free will involved.​


Many girls who turn to prostitution experienced some form of sexual abuse as children. They are usually then lured into prostitution by men who from them for it through flattery and gifts. I suppose you could say there is some modicum of free will, up against a massive amount of emotional, and then physical manipulation.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I try not to, if I don't know the girls or how their experiences affected them. I wouldn't call them "vixens."


Russ Meyer might call them "supervixens"! It got a tomatometer score of 100% on Rotten Tomatoes!


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2019)

KenOC said:


> Agree totally. But when these teen vixens come seeking millions of dollars years later for the wrongs done them, how should we judge this? And to make the choice starker, let's say 14 years old.
> 
> Remember, they were initially offered money for providing Epstein with "erotic massages" and accepted. There was never, that I've heard, coercion.​


That is all irrelevant. According to the laws in this country, an underage girl cannot legally give consent.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Agree totally. But when these teen vixens come seeking millions of dollars years later for the wrongs done them, how should we judge this? And to make the choice starker, let's say 14 years old.


Why not wait and see if that's what they do before we start aimlessly speculating? I know it might sound totally crazy, but just humor me... what if those "teen vixens" just want nothing more than to move on from the trauma of having been raped? I know, crazy thought that a minor not out of her sophomore year might just want nothing more than to gain closure in light of a highly distressing event...those shrewd little vixens.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DrMike said:


> That is all irrelevant. According to the laws in this country, an underage girl cannot legally give consent.


Legally irrelevant I agree, in any criminal proceedings. But the question is, how much can one of the victims successfully claim as damages in a civil suit?

In this country, it is increasingly unlikely that anyone will be held responsible for their own decisions, underage or not.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> where's *your* evidence he groped anyone?
> 
> i for one did not see him doing that, did you?


I am not making any claims.

I never said domingo did anything at all. There have been allegations as yet unproven in which about 10 women so far have accused him of sexual harassment.

You said that those making the allegations are seeking revenge for being rejected in the past. Do you have some evidence of this - if so - please share it with the board.

*i for one did not see him doing that, did you?*

It is not necessary to witness a crime to believe in whether or not it happened - otherwise there would be no criminals in prison. We have evidence, from victims for example. They are witnesses.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Legally irrelevant I agree, in any criminal proceedings. But the question is, how much can one of the victims successfully claim as damages in a civil suit?
> 
> In this country, it is increasingly unlikely that anyone will be held responsible for their own decisions, underage or not.


There have been no suggestions so far that anybody is claiming compensation and given that nearly all the women are not named it looks like money is not their motive.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Minor Sixthist said:


> Why not wait see if that's what they do before we start aimlessly speculating? I know it might sound totally crazy, but just humor me... *what if those "teen vixens" just want nothing more to move on from the trauma of having been raped?* I know, crazy thought that a minor not out of her sophomore year might just want nothing more than to gain closure in light of a highly distressing event...those shrewd little vixens.


It may also be that they want to warn other women about Domingo. Something they may wish they had done much earlier.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> In this country, it is increasingly unlikely that anyone will be held responsible for their own decisions, underage or not.


The phrase "underage or not" is a deceptive conflation. A tendency to hold others responsible for the consequences of adults' choices can be (though it isn't always) a bad thing, but an increased appreciation (backed by science) for the deficiencies of subadults' decision-making is a good thing. Even adult humans make notoriously irrational decisions and engage in foolish and harmful behavior in matters involving sex, but teenagers - raging vortexes of hormonal hyperactivity directed by a powerful need for love and acceptance - are extremely vulnerable to the blandishments and promises of unscrupulous adults wishing to use them sexually. This is why we try to protect them from the seductions of predators, and give no legal recognition to their "consent," but instead treat them as innocent victims. In many cases it's unrealistic and unfair to hold teenagers responsible for unwise and dangerous sexual choices even where these choices may appear uncoerced.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2019)

Minor Sixthist said:


> Why not wait see if that's what they do before we start aimlessly speculating?


Where's the fun in waiting? And while we're at it, let's throw in as many generalisations as we can about women and how they behave, just to confirm our inability to comment on a news story without letting our ignorance show. It's remarkable how many experts in human behaviour there are here to tell us what "young vixens" will and won't do for money, how they are likely to make false allegations.

(Oh, and while criminal proceedings against Spacey may have been dropped, some of the allegations still stand (though unproven and denied) and Spacey himself has apologised for certain instances of inappropriate behaviour.)


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Where's the fun in waiting? And while we're at it, let's throw in as many generalisations about women and how they behave as we can, just to confirm our inability to comment on a news story without letting our ignorance show. It's remarkable how many experts in human behaviour there are here to tell us what "young vixens" will and won't do for money, how they are likely to make false allegations.


I always love being treated enough to learn from gruff much-older men how teenaged girls act. How else might I learn about the motives of all those immoral little foxes, if not straight from the old, not-female source?

I could only wonder what drifts around in girls' heads all day. Probably fantasies of getting slobbered on the mouth by heartthrobs who tracked them into their private dressing rooms. Hot.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Minor Sixthist said:


> I always love being treated enough to learn from gruff much-older men *how teenaged girls act*. How else might I learn about the motives of all those immoral little foxes, if not straight from the old, not-female source?
> 
> I could only wonder what drifts around in girls' heads all day. Probably fantasies of getting slobbered on the mouth by heartthrobs who tracked them into their private dressing rooms. Hot.


They are all the same then are they? What one does, the others must do as well.

I suppose by that logic all men must be sexual predators and abusers - since some are - so must we all be.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

_"A real gentleman, philanthropist, artist, charming and peaceful human being, who is devoted to the new generation of singers in the most humble and respectful way. I know Placido for nearly 10 years and it was, it is always a great pleasure to work with him. You can rarely find today a person who respects more his job, his colleagues, the team of each theater and his fans. An irreplaceable figure in our industry, he, more than anybody else, proved that a successful career depends only on your work and your talent, nothing else can help it or destroy it! Placido Domingo"_

Sonya Yoncheva on facebook a few minutes ago


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Tuoksu said:


> _"A real gentleman, philanthropist, artist, charming and peaceful human being, who is devoted to the new generation of singers in the most humble and respectful way. I know Placido for nearly 10 years and it was, it is always a great pleasure to work with him. You can rarely find today a person who respects more his job, his colleagues, the team of each theater and his fans. An irreplaceable figure in our industry, he, more than anybody else, proved that a successful career depends only on your work and your talent, nothing else can help it or destroy it! Placido Domingo"_
> 
> Sonya Yoncheva on facebook a few minutes ago


fair enough - that is HER experience.

But she is only 37 - many of these allegations go back to when Domingo was younger. Old age may have diminished his desires.


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## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

Innocent until proven guilty? Not for Placido Domingo


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2019)

stomanek said:


> They are all the same then are they? What one does, the others must do as well.


I think if you reread the exchange, you'll see that MinorSixthist and I were making exactly that point.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

MaxKellerman said:


> Innocent until proven guilty? Not for Placido Domingo


From Russia Today website

Russia really is the champion of women's rights eh.

There can never be concrete evidence of these transgressions - unless someone is there with a video recorder. So we rely on testimony as evidence. And if multiple unconnected people with no apparent motive are all saying similar things - it would tend to make one believe there might be some truth in those claims.


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## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

stomanek said:


> it would tend to make one believe there might be some truth in those claims.


There very well might be some truth to them. But to make him out to be a loathsome, creepy sexual predator without knowing what exactly took place is a bit over the top.

It does feel like there is an element of scapegoating at play in these public lynch mobs, even when the accuser is in the wrong. It's as if these notable, famous figures have to pay for the backwards attitudes and transgressions of an entire society.


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

MaxKellerman said:


> There very well might be some truth to them. But to make him out to be a loathsome, creepy sexual predator without knowing what exactly took place is a bit over the top.
> 
> *It does feel like there is an element of scapegoating at play in these public lynch mobs, even when the accuser is in the wrong. It's as if these notable, famous figures have to pay for the backwards attitudes and transgressions of an entire society.*


*
*

That's the hypocrisy where always the loudest shouters are at the front


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

MaxKellerman said:


> There very well might be some truth to them. But to make him out to be a loathsome, creepy sexual predator without knowing what exactly took place is a bit over the top.
> 
> It does feel like there is an element of scapegoating at play in these public lynch mobs, even when the accuser is in the wrong. It's as if these notable, famous figures have to pay for the backwards attitudes and transgressions of an entire society.


I agree with you that character assassinations are incorrect.

However - neither do I think we can simply dismiss the allegations simply because some people have stupidly gone over the top.

I dont agree with your point about scapegoating. Guilty people have to pay the price for their own transgressions only and in this case the evidence does seem to be mounting up.

There are allegations on the table. My only concern is that if there is any truth to them - that Domingo is prevented from any further transgressions and that staff can feel safe in their work environment.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

stomanek said:


> do you have a link to this study - would love to see it.


I don't have a link to the actual case study, but the article I was reading was about a new book called:

*"Pleased to Meet Me: Genes, Germs, and the Curious Forces That Make Us Who We Are" by Bill Sullivan*

BILL SULLIVAN is the author of Pleased to Meet Me: Genes, Germs, and the Curious Forces That Make Us Who We Are. Sullivan received his Ph.D. in cell and molecular biology from the University of Pennsylvania and is an award-winning professor at the Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis, where he studies genetics and infectious disease. He has published dozens of papers in scientific journals and has written for National Geographic, Discover, Scientific American, Scientific American MIND, COSMOS, Psychology Today, Salon.com, A Science Enthusiast, and more. He has been interviewed by CNN, The Wall Street Journal, The Indianapolis Star, Science Fantastic with Dr. Michio Kaku, The Naked Scientists, The Scientist, and more. He has given a variety of science-related talks at schools and libraries, and participated at events including PopCon, GenCon, Starbase Indy, and Pint of Science. More at AuthorBillSullivan.com.

In the article he listed several things that Genetics can do or play a part of in our behavior, but those were just the ones I remembered off the top of my head.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> Interesting--the bolded part especially.
> 
> I don't know much about genetics, but I am of Italian descent (on both sides of my family), have been to Italy multiple times, and...let's just say that it's a cultural "thing" there to be macho and forward with regards to women. I don't imagine it's much different in Spain or Mexico or the other Latin countries. I still remember, when I was 21, I was riding on a bus in Florence and some random guy stuck his hand up my skirt. I yelled something scolding in Italian (I can't remember exactly what words I used), everyone stared, and he stopped immediately. That's when I realized that some of these guys are all braggadocio and little else.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to add that I really should have typed "forcing his attentions on women" rather than "forcing himself on women." I don't want to make it sound like there was rape involved when there wasn't.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> Just wanted to add that I really should have typed "forcing his attentions on women" rather than "forcing himself on women." I don't want to make it sound like there was rape involved when there wasn't.


a man can force himself on a woman without there being rape

pinning her against a wall, slobbering over her and groping etc


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

stomanek said:


> There can never be concrete evidence of these transgressions - unless someone is there with a video recorder.


good idea - a vid, or never happened.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> good idea - a vid, or never happened.


Are you saying that unless there is a video recording of a crime - it never happened?

There is no video recording of my birth.

Does that mean it never happened?

Nearly all criminals are convicted without video evidence. Why should sexual crimes be any different?


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## JAS26 (Apr 10, 2019)

stomanek said:


> a man can force himself on a woman without there being rape
> 
> pinning her against a wall, slobbering over her and groping etc


Are you implying that these allegations are valid?

If you are, do you agree that only a Court can determine guilt, assuming any charges are brought?


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

^Where on earth did his post imply that? He was recounting the accusations and how they could be construed as 'forcing himself' upon one.



Zhdanov said:


> yawn, he was bound for this, a sure victim of yet another witch hunt, but of most interest is who's next?





Zhdanov said:


> its merely those he once regected want revenge.
> 
> but he does not look a sex predator.





Zhdanov said:


> good idea - a vid, or never happened.


I swear to God Zhdanov every post I've seen you make is some sort of 4D meta-contrarian hyper-troll that's so batshit it's parody :lol:


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

stomanek said:


> There is no video recording of my birth. Does that mean it never happened?


you're in the act of posting on here - check.

where's Placido purported act of molestation?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> you're in the act of posting on here - check.
> 
> where's Placido purported act of molestation?


precisely - there are other ways of determining if something is likely to be true other than video evidence

as for Domingo - there are multiple unconnected witnesses who have made similar types of allegations

in a court of law it would be up to a jury to listen to the testimonies of these women and decide if he is guilty or not

many men have been convicted of this type of evidence - Bill Cosby for example - many others - on personal testimony alone and cases of assaults that took place 30-40 years ago. ALL CONVICTED and no video evidence! Only the evidence of the victims.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

stomanek said:


> precisely - there are other ways of determining if something is likely to be true other than video evidence
> 
> as for Domingo - there are multiple unconnected witnesses who have made similar types of allegations
> 
> ...


Also allegations have been made in the past that have turned out to be untrue once put before a court as the stories had too many discrepancies to be true. Nobody can say for sure whether these allegations are true or not at the moment. However, they should be taken seriously and investigated if the law has been broken.

N.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Also allegations have been made in the past that have turned out to be untrue once put before a court as the stories had too many discrepancies to be true. Nobody can say for sure whether these allegations are true or not at the moment. However, they should be taken seriously and investigated if the law has been broken.
> 
> N.


Thats right - not all cases result in convictions - but many have done - and I was just debunking Zhadanov's ideas about the kind of evidence that is needed in order to determine guilt.

I am no court of law - nobody is going to prison if I declare someone guilty - so my standards for belief are lower than a court of law's standards for conviction.

I would go on a balance of probabilities rather than reasonable doubt.

At the moment I am awaiting the result of the investigation which is ongoing by LA Opera. That should be pretty good - since they are in the business and may have some inside information.

I am afraid though I expect a whitewash - since there is too much money involved.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

stomanek said:


> At the moment I am awaiting the result of the investigation which is ongoing by LA Opera. That should be pretty good - since they are in the business and may have some inside information.
> 
> I am afraid though I expect a whitewash - since there is too much money involved.


On the other hand, there may be too much money involved for them to get it wrong.


----------



## Hugo9000 (Aug 6, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> No one should make a judgment based solely on an accusation or a report of it, and unless there is an actual public interest being served, a person should not be named in the media solely because someone has accused him of something. There is no public need to know in most cases of accused sexual misconduct until - and unless - persuasive evidence of guilt is presented. Two accusations by unknown individuals is not persuasive evidence.
> 
> I consider this tabloid journalism, gossip dignified as news. I don't like seeing it here.


The above was a response to the news of rape charges being brought against David Daniels. At that time, authorities had interviewed the alleged victim in Texas and found his testimony and whatever evidence or corroboration available to be credible enough that Texas successfully had Daniels extradited from Michigan to face prosecution. _(Daniels has since been indicted, and the university has initiated proceedings to terminate his tenured position.)_ There were also allegations by others who reported incidents to police and authorities at U of M. _(Since then, the university dismissed one student's claims, however, other students have reportedly come forward corroborating inappropriate sexual behavior and comments from Daniels in his capacity as professor. Investigations continue.)_

In the case of Placido Domingo, one named person coming forward to a journalist and some other anonymous claims are enough, apparently. There are no sworn statements to authorities in this case as far as we know. And no evidence. Why the different standard here?

smh


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Hugo9000 said:


> The above was a response to the news of rape charges being brought against David Daniels. At that time, authorities had interviewed the alleged victim in Texas and found his testimony and whatever evidence or corroboration available to be credible enough that Texas successfully had Daniels extradited from Michigan to face prosecution.
> 
> In the case of Placido Domingo, *one named person coming forward to a journalist and some other anonymous claims *are enough, apparently. There are no sworn statements to authorities in this case as far as we know. And no evidence. Why the different standard here?


From the article which heads this thread:

_*Eight singers and a dancer* have told the AP that they were sexually harassed by the long-married, Spanish-born superstar in encounters that took place over three decades beginning in the late 1980s, at venues that included opera companies where he held top managerial positions.

*In addition to the nine accusers, a half-dozen other women* told the AP that suggestive overtures by Domingo made them uncomfortable, including one singer who said he repeatedly asked her out on dates after hiring her to sing a series of concerts with him in the 1990s.

*The AP also spoke to almost three dozen other singers, dancers, orchestra musicians, members of backstage staff, voice teachers and an administrator* who said they witnessed inappropriate sexually tinged behavior by Domingo and that he pursued younger women with impunity._

_*Seven of Domingo's nine accusers told the AP they feel their careers were adversely impacted *after rejecting his advances, with some saying that roles he promised never materialized and several noting that while they went on to work with other companies, they were never hired to work with him again._

_None of the women could offer documentation, such as phone messages, but *the AP spoke to many colleagues and friends *who they confided in. *In addition, the AP independently verified that the women worked where they said they did and that Domingo overlapped with them at those locations.*_

The AP here reports having found more than fifty people who have offered supporting testimony (not _proof_, which is seldom available in cases of sexual offenses, but convincing support). This is considerably stronger than "some other anonymous claims." It appears pretty clear that Domingo's pattern of behavior has been an open secret, known to a great many people over several decades. Given that, it will be surprising if more individuals do not come forward with accusations or corroboration.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

amfortas said:


> On the other hand, there may be too much money involved for them to get it wrong.


I hope they see it that way.

Frankly I am appalled that many opera houses are siding up with Domingo over this. I just hope now it is out that there are no further victims. I guess he will be on his best behaviour from now on thankfully, I hope.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> From the article which heads this thread:
> 
> _*Eight singers and a dancer* have told the AP that they were sexually harassed by the long-married, Spanish-born superstar in encounters that took place over three decades beginning in the late 1980s, at venues that included opera companies where he held top managerial positions.
> 
> ...


That looks quite substantial and given that it is AP (non profit) has some weight behind it.

So LA Opera where Domingo is a director are doing an investigation

Cant wait for the outcome of that! They will either have to say all those women are fabricating - or let Domingo go.

what a choice!


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

stomanek said:


> precisely - there are other ways of determining if something is likely to be true other than video evidence
> 
> as for Domingo - there are multiple unconnected witnesses who have made similar types of allegations
> 
> ...


If you've ever sat on a jury in the U.S. you know it's all a roll of the dice based on the bias of the jury. That bias can often be wrong.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

haydnguy said:


> If you've ever sat on a jury in the U.S. you know it's all a roll of the dice based on the bias of the jury. That bias can often be wrong.


The idea of the jury system is 12 people unlikely to be all equally biased.

But this is an organisational inquiry and there will be no jury.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

stomanek said:


> The idea of the jury system is 12 people unlikely to be all equally biased.


People have biases that they don't even realize. It doesn't work as it was intended.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

haydnguy said:


> People have biases that they don't even realize. It doesn't work as it was intended.


Yes and the jury system is not perfect - but if you take 12 people all with different biases - hopefully a consensus will be reached on a sound verdict.

Wrong verdicts happen not just because of bias - they happen for many reasons.

But anyway what do you suggest?


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2019)

haydnguy said:


> It doesn't work as it was intended.


How do we know what was intended? The jury system has evolved over hundreds of years, differently in different jurisdictions, but with historical commonalities between, for example, the UK and the USA. Eg, women were not generally permitted on juries until the 20th C in either country.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

stomanek said:


> a man can force himself on a woman without there being rape
> 
> pinning her against a wall, slobbering over her and groping etc


Okay, but my point was that in the minds of most people, the phrase "forcing himself on her" would automatically suggest rape (a crime, and one our society considers particularly heinous) was involved . Whereas "forcing his attentions" could cover a lot of things, from repeated phone calls to forced kissing.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> Okay, but my point was that *in the minds of most people*, the phrase "forcing himself on her" would automatically suggest rape (a crime, and one our society considers particularly heinous) was involved . Whereas "forcing his attentions" could cover a lot of things, from repeated phone calls to forced kissing.


how do you know that? did you do a survey?

it doesnt necessarily mean rape to me. If he forced her to have sex - then yes - thats rape.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2019)

stomanek said:


> how do you know that? did you do a survey?
> 
> it doesnt necessarily mean rape to me. If he forced her to have sex - then yes - thats rape.


Well what does "forcing himself on her" mean to you?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Well what does "forcing himself on her" mean to you?


It could encompass a range of things.

But specifically imagine it means engaging in person to person contact, by means of superior physical strength, with the objective of sexual gratification without consent.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2019)

stomanek said:


> It could encompass a range of things.
> 
> But specifically imagine it means engaging in person to person contact, by means of superior physical strength, with the objective of sexual gratification without consent.


Well I'm no expert, but it seems to be splitting hairs in querying why Bellinilover wanted to distinguish between 'forcing himself', and 'forcing his attention' to avoid being misinterpreted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#Definitions


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Well I'm no expert, but it seems to be splitting hairs in querying why Bellinilover wanted to distinguish between 'forcing himself', and 'forcing his attention' to avoid being misinterpreted.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#Definitions


she used the phrase "forcing himself on" herself and then questioned whether she should have used another phrase to indicate she did not mean rape

I just said that to me - forcing himself on - did not certainly imply rape. i could just mean sexual assault - or groping etc

forcing ones attention on a woman could also be rape - why not?

its a grey area, as they say and you need to be explicit when discussing and say exactly what you mean


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I'll be honest...I don't particularly care. I look to musicians to create music, not to be personal role models.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I'll be honest...I don't particularly care. I look to musicians to create music, not to be personal role models.


me too

but that's not the issue


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

They have to go after the old guys, because all the young ones are gay.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> They have to go after the old guys, because all the young ones are gay.


I have to admit, I've never looked at it that way. And now, I doubt I will.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I'll be honest...I don't particularly care. I look to musicians to create music, *not to be personal role models*.


If we do we'll have poor pickings I fear!


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Opium smokers, murderers, wife stealers, adulterers, fanatics, anti-semites, seducers, womanizers, pederasts (Saint-Saëns), narcissists, alcoholics, syphilitics, bigots, and the borderline insane have all contributed something major to the art of music, and that's not likely to change anytime soon because many of them liked to make up their own rules as they went along and would not confine themselves to living conventionally within a box. They usually had fame, power, and charisma, not to mention, genius. A life without some measure of romance, risk and thrills is not worth living. The great artists often heighten the thrill, freedom, and the intensity of life and are laws unto themselves as much as they can get away with. Sometimes people may even admire them for their audacity if they lack the will to do it themselves, not necessarily as a lawbreaker but as a creator and taker of risks.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2019)

I'm somewhat baffled as to why so many allegations against Placido Domingo have suddenly turned up at once. 

Usually with this sort of thing, when other celebrity figures have been involved, there's an initial complaint followed by a trickle of additional allegations made by other people. 

In this instance it seems that there are 9 "accusers" of "sexual harassment", 6 others claiming "suggestive overtures" were made, and "about 3 dozen" others who claim to have "witnessed" inappropriate behaviour of unspecified varieties, with all these allegations coming out at the same time. This seem fishy to me.

What is also somewhat out of keeping with the usual form is that these allegations are not being investigated by the police or by any sort of appropriate public body, but by a private insitution, in this case LA Opera. Maybe this is the way things are done in the USA, but it seems odd. Are the police not interested, one wonders?


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Partita said:


> I'm somewhat baffled as to why so many allegations against Placido Domingo have suddenly turned up at once.
> 
> Usually with this sort of thing, when other celebrity figures have been involved, there's an initial complaint followed by a trickle of additional allegations made by other people.
> 
> ...


Police only investigate if a crime is reported.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2019)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Police only investigate if a crime is reported.


Sexual harassment (as alleged) is not a crime in the USA?


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Partita said:


> Sexual harassment (as alleged) is not a crime in the USA?


It is a crime. You have to report it to the police. Police do not investigate till reported to them.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> They have to go after the old guys, because all the young ones are gay.


The old guys also often have more money.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> It is a crime. You have to report it to the police. Police do not investigate till reported to them.


The way things are devolving in the US, it'll soon be a crime to accidentally look at someone.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2019)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> It is a crime. You have to report it to the police. Police do not investigate till reported to them.


Quite. Why have these allegations not been reported to the Police?


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2019)

Red Terror said:


> The old guys also often have more money.


They'e also older, by definition. so it's easier to get away with allegations of misconduct going back 30 years, by which time all of the evidence (assuming there ever was any) is dead and buried.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

I think Domingo likely took some liberties he shouldn't have taken, but it certainly is suspicious that all these women are coming forward NOW—perfect timing, isn't it?

$$$


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Partita said:


> They'e also older, by definition. so it's easier to get away with allegations of misconduct going back 30 years, by which time all of the evidence (assuming there ever was any) is dead and buried.


You know, I am in need of extra cash and I do recall Domingo fondling me back in the 70's ... before I was born, :lol:


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

Red Terror said:


> I think Domingo likely took some liberties he shouldn't have taken, but it certainly is suspicious how all these women are coming forward NOW-perfect timing, isn't it?
> 
> $$$


You lot are quite unimaginative. There's plenty of other reasons such as:

1) The fact that people actually take these sorts of allegations seriously now and don't just laugh them off
2) The fact that it would be much harder to have these claims taken seriously when Domingo was in his prime and perhaps 'untouchable' 
3) The fact, as stated in the article, that Domingo's influence could have meant any reporting of his misconduct might have harmed their careers
4) The fact that it's not often not worth reporting harassment of this sort without multiple corroborating (alleged) victims, which might have been much harder to find during Domingo's prime

There's also plenty of backlash that these accusers are facing, as evidenced by the post you and others have made, and the other singers bandwagon-ing around Domingo despite not knowing the legitimacy of the case the alleged victims are making. This isn't necessarily some cheap cash-grab.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

JoeSaunders said:


> You lot are quite unimaginative. There's plenty of other reasons such as:
> 
> 1) The fact that people actually take these sorts of allegations seriously now and don't just laugh them off
> 2) The fact that it would be much harder to have these claims taken seriously when Domingo was in his prime and perhaps 'untouchable'
> ...


Which is why I said _he likely took some liberties_, guy. At the same time, we cannot just assume that all these women are being truthful as people like Domingo are easy targets in this day and age. You lot are fond of purposely misinterpreting others' statements.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2019)

JoeSaunders said:


> You lot are quite unimaginative. There's plenty of other reasons such as:
> 
> 1) The fact that people actually take these sorts of allegations seriously now and don't just laugh them off
> 2) The fact that it would be much harder to have these claims taken seriously when Domingo was in his prime and perhaps 'untouchable'
> ...


But why are all these cases coming out of the woodwork at once?

It seems that someone has been orchestrating this. What's their motive? Are they looking for a cut?


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

Red Terror said:


> Which is why I said _he likely took some liberties_, guy. At the same time, we cannot just assume that all these women are being truthful as people like Domingo are easy targets in this day and age. You lot are fond of purposely misinterpreting others' statements.


You said it was suspicious that these women are coming forward _now_, and I gave you some reasons why it might not be so suspicious after all. And I never assumed that they're telling the truth, only that if they were, this is why they might delay their accusations.


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

Partita said:


> But why are all these cases coming out of the woodwork at once?
> 
> It seems that someone has been orchestrating this. What's their motive? Are they looking for a cut?


Well, surely reason 4) covers that? It strengthens their case if there are more witnesses. Perhaps they bumped into others who were saying similar things about Domingo at some point, and decided to look for others in order to better extract justice.

EDIT: probably a better answer to this point is given by joen_cph in post 151, less chance of conspiracy and whatnot.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It’s hard to figure a selfish motive for these ladies to come forward. Unlike (say) the Bill Cosby case, Domingo seems to have indulged in garden-variety sexual harassment in the workplace. The statue of limitations, within which that must be reported, is 180 days under federal law and up to three years under state laws in states which even have such laws. If more than that time has passed, legal action cannot be initiated nor damages sought. At least that’s what the Internet says!

Perhaps if it can be shown that he damaged the ladies’ careers after their rejection of his attentions, that would be a different matter.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

JoeSaunders said:


> You said it was suspicious that these women are coming forward _now_, and I gave you some reasons why it might not be so suspicious after all. And I never assumed that they're telling the truth, only that if they were, this is why they might delay their accusations.


That so many are coming forward now, at the same time? Yes, it is suspicious even if we consider the relative difficulty of making such accusations thirty years ago. Could some of these claims be legitimate? Of course-some, but not all.

Never underestimate corrupt human nature. The abyss is infinite.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Partita said:


> But why are all these cases coming out of the woodwork at once?
> 
> It seems that someone has been orchestrating this. What's their motive? Are they looking for a cut?


Good, normal journalistic work would be searching for sources independent of each other and asking questions in a neutral way. Rumours are said to have persisted for decades.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Red Terror said:


> The way things are devolving in the US, it'll soon be a crime to accidentally look at someone.


Thats a very clever way to close down the debate.

well done!

You win - all the women are lying and Domingo is clean.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita said:


> *I'm somewhat baffled as to why so many allegations against Placido Domingo have suddenly turned up at once. *
> 
> Usually with this sort of thing, when other celebrity figures have been involved, there's an initial complaint followed by a trickle of additional allegations made by other people.
> 
> ...


The same thing happened with Jimmy Saville - I think it was the BBC who did some digging and brought forward a pile of accusations.

It is now accepted by the police that Saville abused 100s of women over the years and used his power as a top TV personality to avoid justice.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita said:


> They'e also older, by definition. so it's easier to get away with allegations of misconduct going back 30 years, by which time all of the evidence (assuming there ever was any) is dead and buried.


The only evidence in these cases is victim testimony and sometimes (very rarely in historical cases) corroboration from eyewitnesses.

Courts have convicted many abusers with only victim testimony as evidence.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2019)

Assuming that in the USA the law states that there is no criminal case to answer since the complainants against Placido Domingo are all presumably way out of time by virtue of the Statute of Limitations, doesn't this argue for the fact that the guy is presently getting bad publicity which is possibly unfair? 

This is because these complainants had plenty chance to press charges much earlier but failed to do so. If it didn't suit them to do so, that's a possibly problem with the law in not allowing a long enough time period. However, I would assume that these issues were given a proper airing at the time of the legislation. The complainants' action now in stirring things up in a concerted manner (organised by whom we do not quite know) could be seen as an attempt to circumvent the law.

One therefore wonders why are they doing it. Is it to warn others to watch out in their dealings with the man, or to get revenge by damaging his reputation, or to winkle some dosh out of him to make them shut up and not reveal any further, possibly more lurid details in some cases? If any succeed in the latter, what's to stop others joining the "me-too" gang and asking for similar financial hush money?


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2019)

stomanek said:


> The only evidence in these cases is victim testimony and sometimes (very rarely in historical cases) corroboration from eyewitnesses.
> 
> Courts have convicted many abusers with only victim testimony as evidence.


You keep saying the same thing over and over again. This thread is so choc-a-block with your posts that I've lost count of them all. Why do you have such a strong interest in laying into Placido Domingo, based on a list of allegations made mostly by anonymous people of various actions of a loosely defined nature allegedly carried out as long ago as 30 years.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

If you read the opening article, it mentions contacting about 50 sources who confirmed Domingo's alleged attitudes, and the incidents are from three decades since the late 80s, 30 years ago being the absolute maximum - and not the norm.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JoeSaunders said:


> You lot are quite unimaginative. There's plenty of other reasons such as:
> 
> 1) The fact that people actually take these sorts of allegations seriously now and don't just laugh them off
> 2) The fact that it would be much harder to have these claims taken seriously when Domingo was in his prime and perhaps 'untouchable'
> ...


For reasons best known to them, some people here either haven't read this post or have chosen to ignore it.

Accusations of sexual misconduct quite ordinarily come in clusters. There are many reasons for it. To the above I can add:

5) Victims don't like to talk about this stuff. Often they've just tried to forget it, but it may haunt them for years. They also don't want the publicity, with the shaming and blaming that may come their way. But when one case emerges, others feel less intimidated at the prospect of going public.

6) Many victims would never talk publicly about their experiences without being approached by investigative journalists. In this case it's clear that the AP did a lot of investigating, tracking down dozens of people who could tell them something.

7) Once victims realize that others have come forward, and feel safer doing so themselves, they may see value not only in justice for all concerned but in making the public aware of both the offender and the larger social issues involved.

That makes SEVEN reasons why numbers of women should come forward with such "perfect timing." Hopefully this will help to allay somewhat the suspicions of the skeptics.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2019)

joen_cph said:


> If you read the opening article, it mentions contacting about 50 sources who confirmed Domingo's alleged attitudes, and the incidents are from three decades since the late 80s, 30 years ago being the absolute maximum - and not the norm.


If you read my post # 134 you will see that I fully recognised the source of these allegations as reported in the link given in post #1.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that all of a sudden, out of the blue, some 50 people have now come forward, up to 30 years after the alleged events, to tell the world the problems they either once had themselves or believe they witnessed among others?

If there had been a few proper complaints in the first place made by the affected people to the Police within the relevant timescales, and if others later made similar complaints due to the publicity arising, that I believe would have been far more credible scenario than what's actually happened.

I'm by no means suggesting that these complaints are all suspicious. I'm only saying that I trust them much less than I otherwise would have done if they had resulted from the more usual pattern of response for his kind of thing, as far as I have been able to discern it based on similar UK experience over recent years.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2019)

I should also add that we simply do not know how any of this information fell into the hands of AP, so there's no point making up stories about how it happened. 

For all anyone knows, it could have been the lure of a potential financial gain simply to corroborate some fanciful story dreamed up by a person with a vendetta against Domingo, and fed to them by a highly selective journalist in question who carried out the research. 

Or it could be that 500 people were interviewed as possible "witnesses" and the vast majority had no complaints at all to make. As for the others, there's no way telling how accurate and reliable their accounts are without probing them for consistency etc. They too could have been "fed" a story and promised a "cut" if they confirm it. Without seeing the questions posed, the answers given and knowing how close these "witnesses" were to the alleged events I suggest that not much faith can be attached to the mere hearsay that has resulted.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita;1687728[B said:


> ]You keep saying the same thing over and over again. This thread is so choc-a-block with your posts that I've lost count of them all. [/B] Why do you have such a strong interest in laying into Placido Domingo, based on a list of allegations made mostly by anonymous people of various actions of a loosely defined nature allegedly carried out as long ago as 30 years.


Why are you so aggressive and irritable?

Two opera companies so far have cancelled engagements with Domingo and an investigation is ongoing. Clearly there is some substance to the claims - detailed well in Wooduck's post.

The allegations all fit within the sphere of sexual harassment,

My only concern if that if there is truth to the allegations - no further violations take place.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

stomanek said:


> Why are you so aggressive and irritable?
> 
> Two opera companies so far have cancelled engagements with Domingo and an investigation is ongoing. Clearly there is some substance to the claims - detailed well in Wooduck's post.
> 
> ...


And if proven false the two opera companies that cancelled engagements should owe him a ton of money.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> It is a crime. You have to report it to the police. Police do not investigate till reported to them.


No. Sexual assault is a crime. Sexual harassment is a workplace violation.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Although sexual harassment is not a criminal matter, if it involves physical contact or unwanted touching it may turn into assault or sexual battery, which is potentially criminal and may have a longer statute of limitations.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> No. Sexual assault is a crime. Sexual harassment is a workplace violation.


If sexual harassment includes contact it may indeed be a crime (ie sexual assault)

dave lee travis was convicted for a brief touch on a woman's breast

this is the UK though


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita said:


> I should also add that we simply do not know how any of this information fell into the hands of AP, so there's no point making up stories about how it happened.
> 
> For all anyone knows, it could have been the lure of a potential financial gain simply to corroborate some fanciful story dreamed up by a person with a vendetta against Domingo, and fed to them by a highly selective journalist in question who carried out the research.
> 
> Or it could be that 500 people were interviewed as possible "witnesses" and the vast majority had no complaints at all to make. As for the others, there's no way telling how accurate and reliable their accounts are without probing them for consistency etc. They too could have been "fed" a story and promised a "cut" if they confirm it. Without seeing the questions posed, the answers given and knowing how close these "witnesses" were to the alleged events I suggest that not much faith can be attached to the mere hearsay that has resulted.


The AP are a reputable non profit organization. I dont think financial inducements would be involved and I think the accusations have more weight than you give them credit.

This response from Domingo - for me - is revealing

"However, I recognize that the rules and standards by which we are - and should be - measured against today are very different than they were in the past."

So what was considered acceptable in the 70s and 80s is no longer considered acceptable now.

Looks like a tacit admission that he did transgress rules of behaviour.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Partita said:


> If you read my post # 134 you will see that I fully recognised the source of these allegations as reported in the link given in post #1.
> 
> *Doesn't it strike you as odd that all of a sudden, out of the blue, some 50 people have now come forward, *up to 30 years after the alleged events, to tell the world the problems they either once had themselves or believe they witnessed among others?
> 
> ...


Not really. On the contrary, you're suggesting quite a big conspiracy of greed and maliciousness involving a large number of both journalists and musical personalities. US court cases concerning celebrities seem to be a nightmare of vulgarity and public scrutiny into both the victim and the offender's private life. I'd certainly think twice before embarking on one. Others might think differently, of course. Rather, I consider this to be likely a part of a development against male domination in various institutions.

There's been much secrecy as regards such subjects; a deceased Danish composer of some reputation worked with children's choirs and was a paedophile for example, but it never came into the public eye. I know this from a member of the former choir.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

stomanek said:


> This response from Domingo - for me - is revealing "However, I recognize that the rules and standards by which we are - and should be - measured against today are very different than they were in the past." So what was considered acceptable in the 70s and 80s is no longer considered acceptable now. Looks like a tacit admission that he did transgress rules of behaviour.


actually, this looks a valid point - a social environment does affect one's behavior.

it should be judged by the standards of the period.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2019)

stomanek said:


> The AP are a reputable non profit organization. I dont think financial inducements would be involved and I think the accusations have more weight than you give them credit.
> 
> This response from Domingo - for me - is revealing
> 
> ...


The above post was, according to my quick calculations, your 38th in this thread out of a total of 166 posts.

I am therefore tempted to ask why you seem to have a very strong interest in making the very most you can out of these allegations. It seems that you have a mission to make things look as bad as possible for Placido Domingo by contradicting anything stated by anyone else that attempts to take a more objective look at the limited available information.

As an example, you have only part-quoted what Domingo has reportedly said following the allegations. According to you all he said was:

_"However, I recognize that the rules and standards by which we are - and should be - measured against today are very different than they were in the past."_​
This is only part of what he said. You missed out the first two paragraphs of the statement, including a denial of the accuracy of the allegations. The full text was (see the bold text):

_"The allegations from these unnamed individuals dating back as many as thirty years are deeply troubling, and as presented, *inaccurate*.

"Still, it is painful to hear that I may have upset anyone or made them feel uncomfortable - no matter how long ago and despite my best intentions. I believed that all of my interactions and relationships were always welcomed and consensual. People who know me or who have worked with me know that I am not someone who would intentionally harm, offend, or embarrass anyone.

"However, I recognize that the rules and standards by which we are - and should be - measured against today are very different than they were in the past. I am blessed and privileged to have had a more than 50-year career in opera and will hold myself to the highest standards."
_​
You also seem to place the most sinister interpretation possible on the limited part of Domingo's response that you quoted. In fact, I'm not sure that your comment doesn't involve a slight contradiction, since if the behaviour was not previously considered to be of a dubious nature but now is then this hardly constitutes proof of admitting bad behaviour in the past. A further issue is that in an earlier post you said that you thought that the investigations might turn out to be a whitewash. From this it looks like you are not going to shut up rubbishing this man's reputation whatever happens.

In any case, I've certainly come across people I once worked with who were sometimes prone to getting up a bit close in face to face conversation, and who were may be a bit touchy (with colleagues of both sexes), but I just put it down to their somewhat eccentric nature, and thought nothing more about it.

Again, I'm not pre-judging the outcome of any these allegations, just saying that it's all come out in an unusual way that looks to me to be somewhat suspicious, given what I recall of similar cases involving other celebrity figures. To me it looks like a concerted campaign by a journalist to win a few brownie points. The prospect of a financial reward by some complainants could well be the prime motive in some cases. This is a well-known gold-diggers paradise. If the allegations are judged to be exaggerated or ill-founded then it won't have done Placido Domingo's reputation any good at all.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just to put into context what Domingo's accuser actually said:

https://slippedisc.com/2019/08/domingos-accuser-i-suffered-no-consequences/


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2019)

^ The interview hardly shows up any evidence of a sexual predator at work. On the contrary, it all seems to be complete blather. At worst, the allegations of sexual harassment seem to be very mild indeed. If she had taken this to the Police at the time, she would probably have been told to get on her bike and pedal off. If she had gone to her employer I guess they might have a bit more sympathy if they felt there might be some substance in the claims, but since she didn’t do so there’s not much more can be said.

We do not know much about about this complainant, apart from her name. She could have had a long-standing grudge against Placido Domingo for any number of reasons that had nothing at all to do with his alleged approaches. Or possibly she might have a history of making similar complaints against other people who she thought were making advances on her. Further, the so-called witness to the events could have been an admirer of the complainant who chipped in to offer help merely because he did not like a more famous character moving in on his scene.

As for women in general who claim to have encountered sexual harassment at work, I don't doubt for a moment that it does exist, and can be very upsetting and difficult to deal with in some instances. I don't think it's correct to suggest that the odds are, and have been for many years, stacked against those facing the problem. If someone was really causing a nuisance of themselves there are normally ways that this can be brought to the attention of senior management. Most personnel departments these days have senior female staff on hand, who must surely be trained in dealing with issues of this kind. If they there was any substance in the claims, they could simply call in the offender (however senior) and tell them to “watch it”, without necessarily identifying any complainant by name. 

If the kind of behaviour outlined in this interview is deemed to be evidence of sexual harassment then it would be quite a ridiculous state of affairs. Specific details aside, the kind of action described is probably no different in general form from what’s been going since time immemorial as regards how, in many cases, males across the whole of civilisation have gone about making initial advances towards members of the opposite sex.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I've hesitated to enter into this whole debate because it's such a can of worms and because I have equivocal feelings about the whole thing. Whilst I recognise that making unwelcome sexual advances can make people feel very uncomfortable, it is not the same as rape, and I think distinctions need to be drawn. As long as someone takes no for an answer, even if that person has to reiterate their refusal several times, then that line hasn't been crossed. There's also the chance that, when Domingo was younger, some of the women welcomed those advances. I know of at least one dancer at Covent Garden who did. She adored him, said he was a total gentleman and used to always make sure there was a chair in the wings so she could sit and watch his performances.

The recent John Copley case (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/arts/music/metropolitan-opera-john-copley.html) could surely have been much more easily settled if the chorister in question had simply told Copley or his assitant that his comments made him feel uncomfortable. I know Copley, though not well admittedly, but he's always seemd pretty harmless to me and I'm pretty sure he'd have beem mortifed to find that he'd upset someone. What happened instead was a very public shaming and possibly the end of Copley's career, and for what? He didn't actually make any sexual advances, though he did make a few ribald comments about the chorus member.

As I said, I'm not sure which side of the debate I come down on but I'm pretty sure that the recent Katy Perry revelations would have been treated quite differently by the media if she had been a man.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Zhdanov said:


> actually, this looks a valid point - a social environment does affect one's behavior.
> 
> it should be judged by the standards of the period.


By the standards of the period, it was wrong.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Partita said:


> Or it could be that 500 people were interviewed as possible "witnesses" and the vast majority had no complaints at all to make.


If 50 people accuse you, it's irrelevant that 450 don't. No one's claiming Domingo harassed every woman he ever met.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Just to put into context what Domingo's accuser actually said:
> 
> https://slippedisc.com/2019/08/domingos-accuser-i-suffered-no-consequences/


My assessment - if the other complaints are on the same level. Domingo has nothing to fear at all.

Since when was asking a woman out repeatedly a case of sexual harassment?

However - I do understand that some of the other allegations are more serious.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I've hesitated to enter into this whole debate because it's such a can of worms and because I have equivocal feelings about the whole thing. Whilst I recognise that making unwelcome sexual advances can make people feel very uncomfortable, it is not the same as rape, and I think distinctions need to be drawn. As long as someone takes no for an answer, even if that person has to reiterate their refusal several times, then that line hasn't been crossed. There's also the chance that, when Domingo was younger, some of the women welcomed those advances. I know of at least one dancer at Covent Garden who did. She adored him, said he was a total gentleman and used to always make sure there was a chair in the wings so she could sit and watch his performances.
> 
> The recent John Copley case (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/arts/music/metropolitan-opera-john-copley.html) could surely have been much more easily settled if the chorister in question had simply told Copley or his assitant that his comments made him feel uncomfortable. I know Copley, though not well admittedly, but he's always seemd pretty harmless to me and I'm pretty sure he'd have beem mortifed to find that he'd upset someone. What happened instead was a very public shaming and possibly the end of Copley's career, and for what? He didn't actually make any sexual advances, though he did make a few ribald comments about the chorus member.
> 
> As I said, I'm not sure which side of the debate I come down on but I'm pretty sure that the recent Katy Perry revelations would have been treated quite differently by the media if she had been a man.


Except that some of the women alleged that he went beyond words. Unwanted touching for example.

Its not black and white where anything less than rape is ok.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita said:


> The above post was, according to my quick calculations, your 38th in this thread out of a total of 166 posts.
> 
> I am therefore tempted to ask why you seem to have a very strong interest in making the very most you can out of these allegations. It seems that you have a mission to make things look as bad as possible for Placido Domingo by contradicting anything stated by anyone else that attempts to take a more objective look at the limited available information.
> 
> ...


I quoted the relevant part of what Domingo said as it seems to imply that his transgressions were not considered transgressions in that decade. This is some kind of admission - that what he did then - is not acceptable now. I wonder what kind of transgressions he is admitting to?

The rest of what Domingo said is a stock denial. Not worth quoting - what do you expect him to say? But anyway first he says the accusations are inaccurate - then he says - ok - something did happen - but times have changed. There is a contradiction for you.

I find it an interesting discussion - which is why I have many posts in this thread.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> actually, this looks a valid point - a social environment does affect one's behavior.
> 
> it should be judged by the standards of the period.


I think he means - he could get away with it then - but not now.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

amfortas said:


> By the standards of the period, it was wrong.


nah 'wrong' is too broad a term...

take, for instance, slander being a crime, but who knows when they start punishing it?

i mean, punish for real, so that slanderers reputation was ruined.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Zhdanov said:


> take, for instance, slander being a crime, but who knows when they start punishing it?


In Western nations slander is not a crime. It is a civil wrong that may result in a lawsuit for damages.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

KenOC said:


> In Western nations slander is not a crime.


then it will become a crime one day if things go on like this.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> then it will become a crime one day *if things go on like this.*


if things go on like what?

you mean women complaining that men have been sexually harassing them and these complaints being taken seriously?


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2019)

amfortas said:


> If 50 people accuse you, it's irrelevant that 450 don't. No one's claiming Domingo harassed every woman he ever met.


These are highly dubious comments

First of all, it is the case that 15 people (not 50) in total who have alleged that they were directly affected, comprising 9 who allege they were sexually harassed, and 6 other women who claim to have received suggestive overtures that made them uncomfortable.

The other people comprised "_almost three dozen other singers, dancers, orchestra musicians, members of backstage staff, voice teachers and an administrator who said they witnessed inappropriate *sexually tinged behavior* by Domingo and that he pursued younger women with impunity._"

Not the phrase "sexually tinged behaviour". What is that? It could be nothing more than slightly flirtatious behaviour.

Secondly, regards the figure of 500 that I arbitrarily used, it is not irrelevant if a large number of other witnesses who were in a position to assess the situation at the relevant times were unable to confirm that they witnessed any inappropriate behaviour.

To suggest otherwise is a gross misunderstanding of the way things are normally done to establish blame/guilt in situations where is dispute over what happened. For example, in a car accident the insurance companies will listen to witneses giving evidence both for and against a particular driver. It would be extremely odd if they only considered witnesses in support of one version of events, and refused to consider any alternative account.

Not that this Domingo case would ever go to Court, but it would be a similar process there if it were possible to produce witnesses saying they observed no untoward behaviour in the relevant situations/occasions. All viable alternative opinions/witness statements would have to be considered in order to comply with the requirements of due process.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

From what I have observed over the years, in the past more women were expected to know how to defend their honor with men on their own to manage their affairs or relationships — they learned or were taught how to do this — with rape never being acceptable under any circumstances — without it becoming public — all the problems and complications that could arise when men and women were attracted to each other, whether one-sided or not, because of flirting and sexual attraction. Under normal circumstances, the sexes worked it out between them privately, unless it got truly out of hand, because there was an awareness that there could be an attraction, including mutual ones, but made more complicated, of course, at the workplace where other motives can come in, such as professional ambition on one side or the other. That does not seem to be as true now with problems and distress more out in the open, and what was handled more privately then is handled more publicly now. But rape has never been acceptable, and what Placido Domingo has done that’s caused discomfort, feelings of uncomfortableness, kissing women who didn’t want it at the time, I’ve read nothing that would suggest criminal rape, at least so far, and that should count for something, nor in some instances is there any way of knowing how ambitious the women may have been for the parts they wanted, or that may have been promised them, and where they might have perhaps ended up compromising their own honor by giving in. But I would say that the difference now is that women have the greater defense of society — that the compromises are more out in the open — and what was dealt with privately in the past has become more public and come under public scrutiny.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2019)

stomanek said:


> I quoted the relevant part of what Domingo said as it seems to imply that his *transgressions* were not considered transgressions in that decade. This is some kind of *admission* - that what he did then - is not acceptable now. I wonder what kind of transgressions he is admitting to?
> 
> The rest of what Domingo said is a stock denial. Not worth quoting - what do you expect him to say? But anyway first he says the accusations are inaccurate - then he says - ok - something did happen - but times have changed. There is a contradiction for you.
> 
> I find it an interesting discussion - which is why I have many posts in this thread.


You are making things up again, and using selective parts only of Domingo's statement.

Where does Domingo admit that he made transgressions in the past that were not considered as such at the time?

From his statement, he said that he is not someone who would intentionally harm, offend, or embarrass anyone. In addition, he stated that he recognises that rules and standards today are very different from what they were in the past.

Taken together, this does not admit that he knowingly committed any wrongdoing at any time. What you have asserted to the contrary is merely your inference, which seems to be highly speculative.

It's sadly the case that there seem to be people like you who are only too eager to seize on any old gossip that comes their way and make a big meal out of it, as if they themselves have at all time behaved beyond reproach in all matters relating to their dealing with the opposite sex.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita said:


> These are highly dubious comments
> 
> First of all, it is the case that 15 people (not 50) in total who have alleged that they were directly affected, comprising 9 who allege they were sexually harassed, and 6 other women who claim to have received suggestive overtures that made them uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


I think a lot of what you say is irrelevant.

How many people who worked in close proximity to Domingo were asked?

We dont know.

How many would report transgressions if they saw them?

Again - unknown.

So it's pretty much pointless talking about these hypothetical non witnesses. A few have come out in the media and said they cant corroborate the claims. Nothing more. Most are keeping quiet for whatever reason. Either they saw nothing - or saw something and don't want to get involved.

So regardless of how many cant or wont provide evidence - we can only make an assessment of what is likely to have happened based on *those who reported transgressions* and make a judgement about how credible those claims are.

"voice teachers and an administrator who said they witnessed *inappropriate* sexually tinged behavior"

note the word *inapproptiate
*

if these witnesses considered behaviour inappropriate - its suggests something more than light flirtation.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita said:


> You are making things up again, and using selective parts only of Domingo's statement.
> 
> *Where does Domingo admit that he made transgressions in the past that were not considered as such at the time?
> *
> ...


Go back and read his words and try to understand. I'm not going through it again.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Looks like there are more complaints in the pipeline

American Guild of Musical Artists has been advising its members.

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainme...acido-domingo-sexual-misconduct-investigation


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> From what I have observed over the years, in the past more women were expected to know how to defend their honor with men on their own to manage their affairs or relationships - they learned or were taught how to do this - with rape never being acceptable under any circumstances - without it becoming public - all the problems and complications that could arise when men and women were attracted to each other, whether one-sided or not, because of flirting and sexual attraction. Under normal circumstances, the sexes worked it out between them privately, unless it got truly out of hand, because there was an awareness that there could be an attraction, including mutual ones, but made more complicated, of course, at the workplace where other motives can come in, such as professional ambition on one side or the other. That does not seem to be as true now with problems and distress more out in the open, and what was handled more privately then is handled more publicly now. But rape has never been acceptable, and what Placido Domingo has done that's caused discomfort, feelings of uncomfortableness, kissing women who didn't want it at the time, I've read nothing that would suggest criminal rape, at least so far, and that should count for something, nor in some instances is there any way of knowing how ambitious the women may have been for the parts they wanted, or that may have been promised them, and where they might have perhaps ended up compromising their own honor by giving in. But I would say that the difference now is that women have the greater defense of society - that the compromises are more out in the open - and what was dealt with privately in the past has become more public and come under public scrutiny.


There are clearly some genuine cases that deserve investigation, but unfortunately some see it as a big industry these days with a lot of untapped opportunity to exploit it yet further in the hope of cashing in, based largely on exaggerated or false claims. For anyone who has lived a long and colourful life, is rich and famous, the risk factor of being accused of some sexual misdemeanour in the past must be quite high. Of course, the press and other media seize on this kind of thing, as it is just the kind of gossip that sells copy.

In the UK, we have had it up to here since the Jimmy Saville case earlier this decade. OK, a few other dodgy characters have been pulled in, charged and sentenced, but there have also been some very high profile cases that have failed. I may be wrong but my impression is that among the better-educated layers of British society they are increasingly fed up with all this stuff cluttering up the News and TV screens week after week. The same feeling might be more general in society. The subject has become almost as boring as Brexit.

Not only that but there have been some eye-wateringly bad "investigations" by the British Police into alleged sexual crimes against certain high profile people. Two of these in particular have been so appallingly incompetent that it's difficult not to feel some shame towards parts of our Police. The main cases I am mainly referring to involve Sir Cliff Richard, and another one involving a complaint against various high profile ex-Politicians (including a former Prime Minister, Edward Heath). Both of these cases turned out to involve absurd claims by sexual fantasists and, but the Police spent a huge amount of time and money investigating them. These cases took a long time to complete before they were finally dropped, but at huge cost in terms of damage to peoples' reputations, and also damage to their health whilst the investigations were under way.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita said:


> There are clearly some genuine cases that deserve investigation, but unfortunately some see it as a big industry these days with a lot of untapped opportunity to exploit it yet further in the hope of cashing in, based largely on exaggerated or false claims. For anyone who has lived a long and colourful life, is rich and famous, the risk factor of being accused of some sexual misdemeanour in the past must be quite high. Of course, the press and other media seize on this kind of thing, as it is just the kind of gossip that sells copy.
> 
> In the UK, we have had it up to here since the Jimmy Saville case earlier this decade. *OK, a few other dodgy characters have been pulled in, charged and sentenced,* but there have also been some very high profile cases that have failed. I may be wrong but my impression is that among the better-educated layers of British society they are increasingly fed up with all this stuff cluttering up the News and TV screens week after week. The same feeling might be more general in society. The subject has become almost as boring as Brexit.
> 
> Not only that but there have been some eye-wateringly bad "investigations" by the British Police into alleged sexual crimes against certain high profile people. Two of these in particular have been so appallingly incompetent that it's difficult not to feel some shame towards parts of our Police. The main cases I am mainly referring to involve Sir Cliff Richard, and another one involving a complaint against various high profile ex-Politicians (including a former Prime Minister, Edward Heath). Both of these cases turned out to involve absurd claims by sexual fantasists and, but the Police spent a huge amount of time and money investigating them. These cases took a long time to complete before they were finally dropped, but at huge cost in terms of damage to peoples' reputations, and also damage to their health whilst the investigations were under way.


You mean like Stuart Hall - a popular BBC presenter for 30 years - Dave Lee Travis - the top BBC disc jocky from the 70s/80s and of course Jimmy Saville - a man honoured by the queen, Rolf Harris - a huge figure from the 70s children's TV, gary Glitter pop star Max Clifford high proifile publicist. There have also been high profile figures at music schools convicted plus 1 suicide of a Chetham's music teacher in the USA when the legal net closed in on him.

The biggest case that failed was Ken Roache - a popular TV star.

Just because the police made a mess of 1 case and mucked up with the BBC over Cliff Richard - does not automatically mean that no cases of historic abuse have any merit at all - as you seem to be implying.

* I may be wrong but my impression is that among the better-educated layers of British society they are increasingly fed up with all this stuff cluttering up the News and TV screens week after week.

*

I wasn't aware that these stories are cluttering up the news. There seem to be relatively few cases.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2019)

stomanek said:


> The biggest case that failed was Ken Roache - a popular TV star.


I wouldn't call the Ken Roache case the "biggest" case that failed.

In terms of a high profile public figure, longetivity of investigation, and general all-round incompetence by the BBC and Police, the biggest case that failed was that pertaining to Sir Cliff Richard. That one didn't reach the Courts but it still involved a great deal of news coverage, partly because the BBC itself was heavily involved in making things far worse than they really were.

I'm a little surprised, given certain members' propensity to jump on the muck-spreading band-wagon, that there wasn't some take up of the Cliff Richard case here. I accept that he is not well known in the USA but certainly in the UK he has been a very long-standing musical celebrity figure on the "pop" scene.

The recent one concerning "Nick's" (Police code name for complainant) allegations against a list of political heavy-weights inclufing former P.M. Edward Heath was also very bad indeed. That case dragged on for ages, with reputations tarnished, cost £millions, and was very badly handled, giving far too much credence to a sex weirdo himself. This case has caused a big storm in the House of Commons, and there may more on this yet to come involving charges against the Police.

There was also the case of the well-known BBC disc jockey, Paul Gambaccini who won a payout from prosecutors over an unfounded case regarding historical sexual abuse allegations.



stomanek said:


> Just because the police made a mess of 1 case and mucked up with the BBC over Cliff Richard - does not automatically mean that no cases of historic abuse have any merit at all - as you seem to be implying.


You continue to make up silly stories. I definitely did not imply anything of the sort. I wrote in my opening sentence:

_"There are clearly some genuine cases that deserve investigation, but unfortunately some see it as a big industry ..."_​
Isn't that clear enough for you.



stomanek said:


> I wasn't aware that these stories are cluttering up the news. There seem to be relatively few cases.


As is well known, there has been a long history of sex-related allegations against a list of celebrity figures over the past few years. It is never long before something new pops up. A few months ago, it was all about Joe Biden, and before that Harvey Weinstein.

These cases drag on and on, and when the TV news run out of other issues they tend to dig up these old sex scandals to give them far greater publicity than they deserve. Most of the people I associate with have lost interest in this kind of thing, assuming they ever had any in the first place.

When issues of this nature come up involving people in the music profession, I am surprised that there is such readiness to take the claims at face value by people on this Forum. Several seem only too ready to believe the worst about people based on nothing more than a few claims.

The only claim against Domingo so far which is not anonymous, and for which limited details are available, is ridiculously inept. I note that none of the accusing crowd here have said anything about it. They're probably far too embarrassed to attempt anything, despite how hard some try to make something out of nothing.

I suspect the other claims are not much different, and that if there had been any serious cases involving any unacceptable physical contact they would have been reported long before now. Even if there were one or two cases that went unreported (a situation I am only hypothesising for the sake of argument here) I doubt that this is sufficient to give the man a deserved bad name, without knowing the full details, which only a proper Court could hope to determine. I suspect that there would all sorts of mitigating circumstances put forward in defence.

Some folk believe that the claims become more credible if they supported by a large number of people, but do not see that some if not most of these additional claims are possibly attempts to cash-in. Another possibility is that some of the claims may not be independent of each other, but relate to the same occasion where one or more party is drawn in by making a similar complaint mainly in order to provide added credence to a claim(s) made by a colleague. Some even go to some lengths to exaggerate the number of claims, like including so-called witnesses as part of the accuser set.

The main centres of gossip and stir-mongering seem to be confined to places like this, where I can only assume that some people like not only to listen to pure gossip but in some cases to embroider it and try to pass it off as valid comment. I am not sure whether this is a deliberate misreading of the limited available public information, or whether it might be a matter of being unable to determine likely truth from fiction.

Incidentally, in my comments above, I am not including news concerning far more serious cases such as sex-grooming by gangs, such as we had in the Rotherham area. That kind of thing is an entirely different matter.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

*Most of the people I associate with have lost interest in this kind of thing, assuming they ever had any in the first place. *

Wow - for someone who has no interest in this topic you certainly devote a lot of time to writing about it on at least 1 public forum.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

*I am surprised that there is such readiness to take the claims at face value by people on this Forum. Several seem only too ready to believe the worst about people based on nothing more than a few claims. *

and what action do you intend to take?

your files must be full - maybe you should find another focus in life.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

*I'm a little surprised, given certain members' propensity to jump on the muck-spreading band-wagon, that there wasn't some take up of the Cliff Richard case here.*

Erm , because Cliff Richard is not a classical musician - this is a classical music forum - Domingo is a leading opera singer - hence the interest.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

*I wouldn't call the Ken Roache case the "biggest" case that failed. *

Its the biggest case that got to court.

Richard and the Nick cases never made it that far and the police did make asses out of themselves - as they often seem to do.

But there have been many many succeful prosecutions.

None of this has a bearing on Domingo's case.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

*The only claim against Domingo so far which is not anonymous, and for which limited details are available, is ridiculously inept.*

from the AP article:

One accuser said Domingo stuck his hand down her skirt and three others said he forced wet kisses on their lips - in a dressing room, a hotel room and at a lunch meeting.

"A business lunch is not strange," said one of the singers. "Somebody trying to hold your hand during a business lunch is strange - or putting their hand on your knee is a little strange. He was always touching you in some way, and always kissing you."

inept? seems quite serious if true.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Partita said:


> As is well known, there has been a long history of sex-related allegations against a list of celebrity figures over the past few years. It is never long before something new pops up. A few months ago, it was all about Joe Biden, and before that Harvey Weinstein.


Are you saying Weinstein's behavior didn't warrant that much attention?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

stomanek said:


> women complaining that men have been sexually harassing them


women?.. the old hags want the man now he does not want them and that's it.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2019)

stomanek said:


> Wow - for someone who has no interest in this topic you certainly devote a lot of time to writing about it on at least 1 public forum.


Nothing like as much as you. You've probably broken all records for the number of posts in one thread in such a short space of time.



stomanek said:


> and what action do you intend to take?
> 
> your files must be full - maybe you should find another focus in life.


I don't understand the meaning of any of this. Could you clarify?

Meanwhile, I'm quite happy dealing with your narrow-minded comments, correcting your mis-quoted text, and trying to correct your general misunderstandings. So why I should find another focus, as I find these tasks to be so easy?



stomanek said:


> Erm , because Cliff Richard is not a classical musician - this is a classical music forum - Domingo is a leading opera singer - hence the interest.


Not solely. There are plenty of other music genres that are covered by this Forum. Or haven't you noticed?



stomanek said:


> Its the biggest case that got to court.
> 
> Richard and the Nick cases never made it that far and the police did make asses out of themselves - as they often seem to do.
> 
> ...


Don't give me that. It's you who keep on raising cases unrelated to Placido Domingo.

You have made repeated references to the Jimmy Saville case, for example in your posts # 47 and 153. In doing so, the type of comment you have made clearly invites counter-comment that there have been several other cases where things went badly wrong for the complainants. In some cases there was also a very poor record shown by the investigating authorities.



stomanek said:


> from the AP article:
> 
> One accuser said Domingo stuck his hand down her skirt and three others said he forced wet kisses on their lips - in a dressing room, a hotel room and at a lunch meeting.
> 
> ...


"If true" is the key phrase. What faith do you have in it given the evidence of the only non-anonymous accuser to have come forward so far? That very weak evidence clearly shook you for its naivety looking at your earlier comment, from which it seems that you were gob-smacked. Now it seems that you are simply hoping, probably praying, for something more murky will be revealed.

Would I be correct in assuming that you have a long-standing grudge against Domingo for some reason? Only the way you keep up the pressure against him looks decidedly suspicious.

Or possibly for some reason you may not wish to divulge, you are not prepared to give anyone accused of such behaviour a fair chance but instead want to side with the accusers immediately and accept all that they allege is true without waiting for the investigations to proceed and reach an opinion. From several things you have said it would look as if you have already made up your mind that Domingo is guilty as claimed.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Zhdanov said:


> women?.. the old hags want the man now he does not want them and that's it.


We have a new winner.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2019)

In case anyone thinks that allegations of sexual assault involving celebrities is some mind of recent invention (since Jimmy Savile, or since #Metoo), a short search of the WWW from 2000 to 2005 produces half a dozen cases in the UK. I daresay if someone wanted to do the same check for cases for other countries, the same would appear. Some of the cases resulted in convictions of the celebrities, or of the accusers for making false allegations.

So, it is not a new invention. For as long as we have had celebrity, the public have been interested in any such allegations, and they will continue to feed off the media coverage, whether for the accused or the accuser. Doubtless some CM historian here will be able to remind us of public scandal surrounding composers or conductors from past centuries. I can only bring the Roscoe Arbuckle case to mind, the film star from the 1920s.



> After the first two trials, which resulted in hung juries, Arbuckle was acquitted in the third trial and received a formal written statement of apology from the jury. Despite Arbuckle's acquittal, the scandal has mostly overshadowed his legacy as a pioneering comedian. Following the trials, his films were banned and he was publicly ostracized. Although the ban on his films was lifted within a year, Arbuckle only worked sparingly through the 1920s.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscoe_Arbuckle

Given how CM listeners allegedly think themselves classy and sophisticated, it's a wonder how this thread has lasted 14 pages. :devil:


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

yes, but it is mostly Brittish/American thing. There are probably two reasons - the neurotic puritanism of these societies which somehow makes this into public scandals. Look at France or Italy for comparison. Nothing like Monika Lewinsky would ever become a scandal in these countries. I give you a concrete example. A couple of years ago, Berlusconi and the then Prime Minister of Czech Republic Mirek Topolánek were photographed naked on some party on some yacht with prostitutes in the Mediterranean Sea
https://www.newser.com/story/61203/ex-czech-pm-yep-im-the-naked-guy-in-berlusconi-pic.html
it did not lead to any scancal neither in Italy nor in Czech Republic. The public was amused and thought what great testosterone men we have for leaders. So there is a marked difference in mentality and morality about these things.
and the second thing is the flawed and dysfunctional legal system in both UK and US, which allows such exorbitant compensations for minor infractions to be paid.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Jacck said:


> A couple of years ago, Berlusconi and the then Prime Minister of Czech Republic Mirek Topolánek were photographed naked on some party on some yacht with prostitutes in the Mediterranean Sea . . . it did not lead to any scandal neither in Italy nor in Czech Republic. The public was amused and thought what great testosterone men we have for leaders.


I know that's the first thing I look for when I'm filling out my ballot.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

amfortas said:


> I know that's the first thing I look for when I'm filling out my ballot.


the Russians miscalculated on these things when they were waging desinformation campaings before the French elections (pushing Le Pen against Macron). They thought that if they are going to attack Macron on the ground that he has a 20 years older wive and mistresses etc, the French voters would care. In fact, they did not.
https://nypost.com/2017/04/26/why-the-french-shrug-off-teen-romances-with-teachers/


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

*Nothing like as much as you. You've probably broken all records for the number of posts in one thread in such a short space of time.*

you write more than me - so I think you are way out in the lead on word count.

I have nothing against Domingo - think he is one of the greats - really enjoy his Otello in particular.

However - I don't think it's too far fetched to believe that he did many of the things he has been accused of. The anonymous "victims" stand to gain nothing financially - so I wonder what they would have to gain? I cant see AP making the whole lot up - so there is, on the balance of probabilities as I see it - some truth to the claims.

As far as I know - no victims of those who were convicted, ever gained from a compensation payout - so I see no reason to use this as a means to discredit the accounts.

But there will be no court case and it will be up to the organisations which operate with Domingo what action they take. At least two in the USA have decided, at financial cost - to cancel their association with him. More may follow - much depends on the LA Opera investigation - which is being conducted privately and which no details will be released.

This may well blow over - many stakeholders are hoping it will - but rightly or wrong - Domingo's reputation will never be the same.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

stomanek said:


> Domingo's reputation will never be the same.


yeah? why so?.. just because some papers wrote something?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

https://slippedisc.com/2019/08/why-the-domingo-case-is-failing/


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

^It's only been a week, I don't why Norman's so keen to make these sorts of pronouncements. Especially when it's coupled with a picture of Domingo posing with Woody Allen, very subtle :lol:


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2019)

^ I would have thought that a week is a long enough time to test whether there is much more to come. It doesn't look it. As things stand, the allegations are merely that. I don't know what kind of eventual report is expected from L A opera, if any. Perhaps newspapers aren't selling too well at this time the year, so what prompted this was that they're scratching around for any gossipy story that might help sales.


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

I think you're overstating the significance of the accusers' anonymity somewhat. Whilst you're right to suggest that ordinarily this might make their accusations less accountable are more likely to be fabricated, it's worth pointing out this paragraph in the original article:

_"None of the women could offer documentation, such as phone messages, but the AP spoke to many colleagues and friends who they confided in. In addition, the AP independently verified that the women worked where they said they did and that Domingo overlapped with them at those locations."_

I think these things should mitigate some of your worries about anonymity. Sure, it's possible that the accusers are making things up despite the AP's checks, but this is a problem in any case where an outcome is judged by testimony. I think the AP is generally taken to be a quite unbiased news source so I shouldn't imagine their checks are faulty.

I take issue with the idea that there's most likely to be some ulterior motive to their anonymity. Again, it's _possible _that this might be the case, but there are perfectly innocent explanations which we can also appeal to. Not wanting to expose oneself to online hate mobs is perfectly reasonable. Especially now that so many are in the business of 'taking sides' and many seem incredibly quick to make negative judgments about the victims' testimony, and would likely do so even without anonymity. We all know #metoo-style events are a hotbed of controversy that would be exhausting to be personally involved in. And make no mistake, the high-profile singers coming out in support of Domingo are implicitly judging the accusers of being unreliable or making false testimony.

The fact that there are plausible innocent _and _ulterior explanations of their decision means that in absence of the facts, we should remain more neutral, i.e. not judge their testimony as either incredibly plausible nor inherently suspicious. (This obviously only applies to us onlookers, not the people doing the investigating, who probably do possess some more facts)

The reason why they didn't go the police was discussed briefly in this thread before. Sexual harassment is a workplace violation that the accusers would be advised to take up with their employers. So why go to the press instead? The article states their aim here:

_"they felt emboldened by the #MeToo movement and decided the most effective way to attack the entrenched sexual misconduct in their industry was to call out the behavior of opera's most prominent figure."_

This wouldn't have been possible if they had simply complained to their employers and come to some behind-the-scenes settlement. I don't know how entrenched sexual misconduct is in the opera world, so I can't judge if their aims are sensible here. But if there is an entrenched problem, making justified public claims against an operatic legend could do well to deter this sort of behaviour, irrespective of a potential predator's fame. If this is all correct, then I think we have found a relatively innocent explanation of why they'd go the press without needing to invoke their desire for cash. And as before, without knowing the full story we should remain neutral.

I don't say these things as a means of taking a particular side. My boring opinion on the matter is that the accusations are _somewhere _in the realm of likelihood and ought to be pursued by the LA opera. I do agree with you that it's disappointing when people pre-judge someone to be guilty just on the basis of newspaper reports.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2019)

Anyone find the New York Times coverage any more helpful than some of the more rudimentary articles?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Anyone find the New York Times coverage any more helpful than some of the more rudimentary articles?


I tried to read some usa coverage - sadly many have a paywall or require subscription.

There's a Guardian article - summing up quite nicely whey the opera houses are rallying around Domingo

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/aug/15/why-has-the-opera-world-rallied-round-placido-domingo

the writer of this one also had previous knowledge of Domingo's alleged behaviour.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2019)

Try this one - it only requires a free subscription.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/18/arts/music/placido-domingo-opera-harassment.html


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

JoeSaunders said:


> _"they felt emboldened by the #MeToo movement and decided the most effective way to attack the entrenched sexual misconduct in their industry was to call out the behavior of opera's most prominent figure."_


should have said right away there's a great deal of politics involved; witch hunt that is.

go and get your copy of Malleus Maleficārum to clearly see what's what, guys.


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

Right on cue, as ever. Heaven forbid victims of harassment try to publicly warn people about it and deter other sex pests in the process, that's _unthinkable_.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2019)

Since Placido Domingo is a Spaniard, it occurred to me that it might be useful to check out the social norms in Spain when greeting people, in terms of the accepted, normal physical contact such as kissing and touching upon first encounter.

What I did was enter "_spain social greeting kissing_" into my preferred search engine which happens to be Google.

It threw up a lot of interesting results. I'm not going to make any attempt to summarise these in any detail, but instead suggest that if anyone is interested they might do the same as above, and follow a few links. The results are interesting.

Now that I know what a "Spanish kiss" is, I must admit, being a Brit, I wouldn't fancy receiving one such myself, but I guess "when in Spain ..."

Combine this Spanish kissing malarchy with the fact that Domingo is very famous, and presumably a very ebullient and outgoing person, probably a lot more so than a typical Spaniard, and this may provide at least part of a possible rational explanation for some of the alleged behaviour towards certain females with whom he has had close working contact.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita said:


> Since Placido Domingo is a Spaniard, it occurred to me that it might be useful to check out the social norms in Spain when greeting people, in terms of the accepted, normal physical contact such as kissing and touching upon first encounter.
> 
> What I did was enter "_spain social greeting kissing_" into my preferred search engine which happens to be Google.
> 
> ...


I dont think so.

In Britain many men, me for example, greet female friends with a kiss to the cheek. If done correctly - it would imply no sexual menace.

And Domingo is not stupid - he would be aware that these customs don't necessarily travel well.

Good try though. At least you are now allowing some possibility that these women are not complete fabricators - albeit they are misinterpreting Domingo's intentions.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Partita said:


> Since Placido Domingo is a Spaniard, it occurred to me that it might be useful to check out the social norms in Spain when greeting people, in terms of the accepted, normal physical contact such as kissing and touching upon first encounter.
> 
> What I did was enter "_spain social greeting kissing_" into my preferred search engine which happens to be Google.
> 
> ...


Compared to Americans and Britons, Latins can seem very demonstrative. I don't think it's irrational to assume that Domingo was raised to be quite "forward" with women--that he was never shy and retiring around them. This wouldn't excuse any abuse of power on his part, but it would go at least some way to explaining a general attitude toward male/female affection. Bluntly put, "traditional" Latin men were encouraged to be "Romeos." I've seen this a lot in Italy and in my own extended (Italian) family.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

His 'physical' side has now been confirmed by (anonymous) performer sources here in my country, who have absolutely no interest in court cases etc.
This according to a newspaper article.


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

Yikes, eleven more accusers have come out with their stories it appears: https://www.latimes.com/entertainme...ido-domingo-new-sexual-harassment-allegations


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

JoeSaunders said:


> Yikes, eleven more accusers have come out with their stories it appears: https://www.latimes.com/entertainme...ido-domingo-new-sexual-harassment-allegations


Wow. That's pretty damning to say the least.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2019)

Placido leaving the Met today before opening of Macbeth.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49822285


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Placido leaving the Met today before opening of Macbeth.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49822285


Wow. It sucks for a legend to go out like this, but he brought it on himself...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I used to joke about "The Three Tenors: Pavarotti, Placido Domingo, and that other guy."

Now I'll have to change it: "The Three Tenors: Pavarotti, Jose Carreras, and that other guy." :lol:


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## Jermaine (Apr 23, 2016)

Whether or not he has committed the unspeakable terrors that he's accused of, I think he has handled the situation quite poorly. In plea for his innocence, he's sadly erred on the side of pomp and privilege.

I wish him well.​


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> Wow. It sucks for a legend to go out like this, but he brought it on himself...


Exactly what I thought when he started singing Nabucco...

N.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

SAN FRANCISCO — Opera star Placido Domingo resigned Wednesday (today) as general director of the Los Angeles Opera and withdrew from future performances at the company following multiple allegations of sexual harassment reported by The Associated Press.

“I hold Los Angeles Opera very dearly to my heart and count my work to create and build it as among my most important legacies,” said Domingo, 78, who helped found the company in the 1980s.

“However, recent accusations that have been made against me in the press have created an atmosphere in which my ability to serve this company that I so love has been compromised.”


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## asiago12 (May 2, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> Hey, not to excuse him, but why not go back 50 or 60 years? How about in a former incarnation?


Regard the catholic priests.. they went back 50-60-70 years...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

DrMike said:


> We like to pretend that this was all acceptable x number of years ago. It wasn't. It never has been. Decent people have always recognized how sleazy it is - but there was in those days a critical mass of people willing to cover it up. If it were acceptable then, these men would not have tried to keep it quiet. While there is certainly an opportunity for this to go too far, and for people to be falsely accused, the egregiousness of this type of behavior, so long unpunished, allows perhaps a certain degree of backlash now that should be tolerated. By all means, he should be able to state his case, give his rebuttal. But if it turns out he did this, then his station in life should have no bearing. We are passed the days when people like Roman Polanski - a fugitive on the run to avoid jail time for sexually violating a teenage girl - get awards and people applaud them, and justify their evils because of some notion of their artistic contributions washing away those sins.
> 
> Sadly, this kind of predatory sexual activity is being exposed as all too common, not in any particular group, but rather in men who reach a certain level of power in whatever field they find themselves in. I hope any who have done this and have thus far gotten away with it are currently crapping their pants. It's time for them to experience the fear for a change.


If the women were adults, and acting as victims, and failed to resist or report these incidents, this seems to be more of a past failure of society to properly socially prepare women to act as autonomous adults with power.

How can a long past failure _of a social nature_ be considered a crime if no actual crime per se was committed, and the parties involved were both adults? Incidents which used to be social in nature now seem to be ending careers, but is this because it occurred in the workplace, or because it's morally wrong, or is an "egregious type of behavior?" What does that mean legally?

What exactly, from a legal standpoint, is the crime here? Is this social or legal?

Maybe that doesn't matter, if society itself is beginning to exert new power of a moral nature, "cleansing" its ranks, and "screening" people as a preventative measure. Mix in gun control, background checks, and "preventative screening," and I see a very dangerous future ahead...

Is this "The Church" raising its head again, this time as a disguised undercurrent of power?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> If the women were adults, and acting as victims, and failed to resist or report these incidents, this seems to be more of a past failure of society to properly socially prepare women to act as autonomous adults with power.


Or a failure of society to take women seriously when they try to act as autonomous adults with power. Eventually, you learn there's no point in trying.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> Maybe that doesn't matter, if society itself is beginning to exert new power of a moral nature, "cleansing" its ranks, and "screening" people as a preventative measure. Mix in gun control, background checks, and "preventative screening," and I see a very dangerous future ahead...


Yeah, it's terrifying to think that some shopper or concertgoer might escape death because some psychopath's God-given right to weaponry was abridged.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Yeah, it's terrifying to think that some shopper or concertgoer might escape death because some psychopath's God-given right to weaponry was abridged.


No, you read me wrong. I'm anti-gun, but the NRA is going to want "screenings" of people, rather than bans on AK-47s. Invasion of privacy is on the rise.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

amfortas said:


> Or a failure of society to take women seriously when they try to act as autonomous adults with power. Eventually, you learn there's no point in trying.


You mean when they sport tattoos, tube-tops, heavy makeup, and those "pants" that look like tights? There's some contradictory messages going out.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

PlaySalieri said:


> As far as I know - no victims of those who were convicted, ever gained from a compensation payout...But there will be no court case and it will be up to the organisations which operate with Domingo what action they take. At least two in the USA have decided, at financial cost - to cancel their association with him...rightly or wrong - Domingo's reputation will never be the same.


No crime was committed, so I guess you can use that as a reason to keep your Placido Domingo CDs.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> No, you read me wrong. I'm anti-gun, but the NRA is going to want "screenings" of people, rather than bans on AK-47s. Invasion of privacy is on the rise.


Ah. But you did lump together gun control, background checks, and "preventative screening," suggesting that they're equally problematic. Hence my response. Background checks are a form of screening which I think reasonable and necessary. Do you disagree?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Yeah, it's terrifying to think that some shopper or concertgoer might escape death because some psychopath's God-given right to weaponry was abridged.


I'm a fan of guns myself. I keep my Ross Seyfried .585 Nyati in a locked glass cabinet with the sign, "In case of Brahms". But really, a zombie attack might tempt me to pull it out as well.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Ah. But you did lump together gun control, background checks, and "preventative screening," suggesting that they're equally problematic. Hence my response. Background checks are a form of screening which I think reasonable and necessary. Do you disagree?


I am against screening and "background checks" which do not deal with actual crimes committed, and which infringe on reasonable free speech; I'd rather see a ban on AK47s, since I'm not interested in guns.
The screenings should ideally be legal data only, not social media, social disputes, etc.

In other words: a person's arrest record, and that's all.

What I really fear is the rise of "preventative screening" to identify _potential _offenders. It reminds me of the idea of "pre-crime" in that Tom Cruise movie.



KenOC said:


> I'm a fan of guns myself. I keep my Ross Seyfried .585 Nyati in a locked glass cabinet with the sign, "In case of Brahms". But really, a zombie attack might tempt me to pull it out as well.


Ha ha. 
But maybe KenOC is right, maybe more firepower will be needed to handle it, if these "zombies" he speaks of work as troops for the government, or whoever it is who's going to infringe on your rights.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

*D e s t r o y 
a l l 
P l a c i d o 
D o m i n g o 
r e c o r d i n g s !*


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> Wow. It sucks for a legend to go out like this, but he brought it on himself...


Yes, too bad...but so what. That's a real career-ender, isn't it? This country (USA) was colonized for religious freedom, by religious fanatics in a cult. March on, brother!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Exactly what I thought when he started singing Nabucco...
> 
> N.


He did cookie commercials?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> You mean when they sport tattoos, tube-tops, heavy makeup, and those "pants" that look like tights? There's some contradictory messages going out.


I'm not sure our individual preoccupations are all that pertinent to the discussion.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

amfortas said:


> I'm not sure our individual preoccupations are all that pertinent to the discussion.


Ha ha. These accoutrements are part of the social fabric, of the female identity, especially in the Southern border region of the US.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> I am against screening and "background checks" which do not deal with actual crimes committed, and which infringe on reasonable free speech; I'd rather see a ban on AK47s, since I'm not interested in guns.
> The screenings should ideally be legal data only, not social media, social disputes, etc.
> 
> In other words: a person's arrest record, and that's all.
> ...


Should any history of any kind of mental illness preclude gun ownership? Even depression, even if it was in the past?

What do people think?


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> You mean when they sport tattoos, tube-tops, heavy makeup, and those "pants" that look like tights? There's some contradictory messages going out.


Do you think only women who dress like this experience sexual harassment?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Open Book said:


> Should any history of any kind of mental illness preclude gun ownership? Even depression, even if it was in the past?...What do people think?


That's a good question...should it? The NRA would rather think that, than ban automatic weapons. Why is this question even being asked? Do they ask this question in Britain?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Open Book said:


> Do you think only women who dress like this experience sexual harassment?


No, but there are some contradictory messages going on here.

Since biologically, men are sexually stimulated visually, then men could start claiming "visual harassment."


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> That's a good question...should it? The NRA would rather think that, than ban automatic weapons. Why is this question even being asked? Do they ask this question in Britain?


Uh, automatic weapon ownership is already illegal in the US. A little fact-checking may be in order.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Uh, automatic weapon ownership is already illegal in the US. A little fact-checking may be in order.


Is that so?
Uh, thanks for contributing to the discussion. Ken, and not just pointing out what _you see_ as "mistakes."

I meant _semi-_automatic weapons should be banned. You must mean _fully_ automatic weapons. You're just as fact-deficient as I am! How silly of us! Neither of us specified _exactly_ what we were referring to, so I guess we were both wrong by omission.

Multiple news outlets have reported that the weapon used by Stephen Paddock in the Mandalay Bay shooting may have been a fully automatic weapon, or "machine gun."

New, fully automatic weapons-weapons that reload automatically and fire continuously with one trigger pull-have been banned for civilians in the United States since the Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986.It's semi-automatic rifles-guns that reload automatically but fire only once per trigger pull-that have seen wide use in recent mass shootings and that probably constitute the majority of rifles used in homicides and other crimes.

I see little difference, since I think that people don't need multiple-shot capability at all.

Now, let's try to contribute some _real _information to the discussion, Ken.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> ...I meant _semi-_automatic weapons should be banned. You must mean _fully_ automaticweapons. You're just as fact-deficient as I am! How silly of us! Neither of us specified _exactly_ what we were referring to, so I guess we were both wrong by omission.


The meanings of the terms are well-established and not subject to ambiguity. For instance: "Automatic weapons, which are often described as machine guns, are different, in that squeezing the trigger once fires cartridges repeatedly until the shooter releases it." (politifact.com)

Again, some fact-checking may be in order.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The two tenors I have always avoided when possible are Domingo and Pavarotti. Never like their tone.
I do have Domingo on some Wagner operas however and tolerate him.
So I will be keeping those.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> No, but there are some contradictory messages going on here.
> 
> Since biologically, men are sexually stimulated visually, then men could start claiming "visual harassment."


No, they really couldn't.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2019)

Open Book said:


> Should any history of any kind of mental illness preclude gun ownership? Even depression, even if it was in the past?
> 
> What do people think?


What do people think? I thought this was about Placido Domingo and inappropriate sexual behaviour...where did the gun discussion come from??


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> What do people think? I thought this was about Placido Domingo and inappropriate sexual behaviour...where did the gun discussion come from??


It entered the conversation in post #229. Lets' hope it leaves it in post #253.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

How I imagine the defeat of Domingo will go (since he's still booked for some European places)

_Ext. battlefield, day. Dark and cloudy._

*Domingo* (surrounded by his army of elderly fans who don't care about his scandals or his questionable repertoire choices): I am inevitable

*Ludovic Tézier* (looking battered and bloody, curls all messed up, but he will not surrender): And I am a real Verdi baritone *snap*


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> No, but there are some contradictory messages going on here.
> 
> Since biologically, men are sexually stimulated visually, then men could start claiming "*visual harassment*."


That would be impossible to prove, but certainly the visual aspect could be deemed rather inconsiderate since it likely affects most men. I am for modest clothing for both men and women.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

> Originally Posted by *millionrainbows*





> _No, but there are some contradictory messages going on here.
> 
> Since biologically, men are sexually stimulated visually, then men could start claiming "*visual harassment*."_






Fritz Kobus said:


> That would be impossible to prove, but certainly the visual aspect could be deemed rather inconsiderate since it likely affects most men. I am for modest clothing for both men and women.


It could be possible to prove "visual harassment" if some guidelines were established:

Amount of cleavage exposed
Amount of sideboob visible
Amount of thigh exposed
Prohibiting T-shirts which make it appear that there are no pants
Prohibition of tights which are worn as "pants" which explicitly outline the curvature of buttocks and genital area
Etc.


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

^What a post. Comparing the "suffering" of men who have to bravely resist the temptation of VISIBLE CLEAVAGE, to the women who have to endure unsolicited groping, kissing, and intimidatingly persistent advances is an absolute disgrace. Victim blaming at its clearest.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> It could be possible to prove "visual harassment" if some guidelines were established:
> 
> Amount of cleavage exposed
> Amount of sideboob visible
> ...


While I didn't actually say, "Quit while you're ahead," I thought the implication was there. Guess not.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> [/I]
> 
> It could be possible to prove "visual harassment" if some guidelines were established:
> 
> ...


This takes the art of thread demolition to a new level.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> I used to joke about "The Three Tenors: Pavarotti, Placido Domingo, and that other guy."
> 
> Now I'll have to change it: "The Three Tenors: Pavarotti, Jose Carreras, and that other guy." :lol:


Probably everyone has heard that Robert Kraft, owner of the New England Patriots, was caught in "one of those" massage parlors a few months ago. Not long after, I was watching a major tennis tournament on TV and spied Kraft in the audience with a buddy, actor Woody Harrelson.

The announcers and camera crews at these events love to scan the crowd for celebrities and point them out to the audience. Both men were clearly in the camera's eye but only Harrelson got a mention. Kraft, a big name in sports, was totally snubbed. He had become "that other guy". Or as my husband put it, "He who shall not be named".


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## sharkeysnight (Oct 19, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Ha ha. These accoutrements are part of the social fabric, of the female identity, especially in the Southern border region of the US.


Your dog-whistle is hurting my ears.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Open Book said:


> Probably everyone has heard that Robert Kraft, owner of the New England Patriots, was caught in "one of those" massage parlors a few months ago....Kraft, a big name in sports, was totally snubbed. He had become "that other guy". Or as my husband put it, "He who shall not be named".


Yes, we don't like big names in sports who go to "massage" parlors. That's sex, and this country was founded by Puritans, religion, and guns.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

An interesting article ultimately critical of the way Placido was treated. Written by a lady lawyer.

*The Defenestration of Domingo*: "Here is the reality of Domingo's world: It is shot through with sexual energy and tension. Performers and staff work long hours in an enterprise requiring the passion and willpower to conquer some of the most challenging works in the musical repertoire. Put males and females in any high-pressure, close-contact situation, and Eros will make an immediate appearance-just ask the spouses of lawyers in white shoe law firms or of soldiers in gender-integrated Army barracks. In the performing arts, filled with oversized personalities and appetites, the erotic currents are particularly headstrong. Females threw themselves at Domingo. Young fans pled with his assistants to get their phone numbers into his hands. Wealthy socialites tried to arrange affairs. Singers sought out liaisons. Many of their advances were unwelcome. Does that make his suitors harassers? This kind of female behavior is routinely excised from the #MeToo narrative that presents a world apparently composed exclusively of male rapists and female victims, and which declines to acknowledge the billions of dollars that women invest annually in make-up and clothes they hope will make them more desirable to the opposite sex."


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

KenOC said:


> An interesting article ultimately critical of the way Placido was treated. Written by a lady lawyer.
> 
> *The Defenestration of Domingo*: "Here is the reality of Domingo's world: It is shot through with sexual energy and tension. Performers and staff work long hours in an enterprise requiring the passion and willpower to conquer some of the most challenging works in the musical repertoire. Put males and females in any high-pressure, close-contact situation, and Eros will make an immediate appearance-just ask the spouses of lawyers in white shoe law firms or of soldiers in gender-integrated Army barracks. In the performing arts, filled with oversized personalities and appetites, the erotic currents are particularly headstrong. Females threw themselves at Domingo. Young fans pled with his assistants to get their phone numbers into his hands. Wealthy socialites tried to arrange affairs. Singers sought out liaisons. Many of their advances were unwelcome. Does that make his suitors harassers? This kind of female behavior is routinely excised from the #MeToo narrative that presents a world apparently composed exclusively of male rapists and female victims, and which declines to acknowledge the billions of dollars that women invest annually in make-up and clothes they hope will make them more desirable to the opposite sex."


Nowhere is "blame the victim" more clearly encapsulated than in that last phrase.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

amfortas said:


> Nowhere is "blame the victim" more clearly encapsulated than in that last phrase.


:lol: OTOH, that last phrase is indisputably accurate.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

KenOC said:


> :lol: OTOH, that last phrase is indisputably accurate.


Accurate, yes. Pertinent, no. But the author went there anyway.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2019)

Sexual harassment is not about sex, it is about power. Maybe many women "threw themselves" at Domingo. To the extent they had no power over him, it was not harassment, unless they persisted after he declined repeatedly or they transgressed other laws. It is also not harassment if Domingo makes overtures to women. If he makes overtures to woman whose career advancement depends on him, it is harassment, even if he makes no explicit threat. It is harassment if it is a Walmart manager demands favors from Walmart associates, and it is harassment if an opera company director demands favors from sopranos.

It doesn't sound like a criminal matter, but it sounds like troubling behavior that would get anyone else fired. It deprives the company of the services of people who will not acquiesces to the behavior and leaves the company vulnerable to civil suits.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The quote I posted was one (rather provocative) paragraph from a much longer article that has considerable additional information. It might be a good idea to read the entire article before drawing final conclusions. The link is in my post #263.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2019)

I read the article. I'm not buying the argument that a creatively charged atmosphere somehow gives Domingo the right to put his hand up some woman's skirt, or create a hostile environment where some people felt it was traumatic to work with him. There is something to the argument that it is not ideal that he get's kicked out now for offenses that occurred 20 years ago or more. It is in some sense unfair to him because if there was pushback in the bad old days he might have had the sense to behave himself. On the other hand, accusations come from long ago because those victims are beyond his retribution. For all we know he was up to the same inappropriate behavior up until the present day. 

Under standard HR policy, as I understand it, demonstration of harassment does not mean the guilty person is summarily terminated. The guilty person is told in no uncertain terms what is acceptable and what is not. Termination is on the table when the person does not comply or if the behavior is truly egregious.

Bottom line, he had a great talent, and he used it as a tool to abuse people.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2019)

Basically I think Domingo should be treated like anyone else. An ordinary employee would not be allowed to get away with what he did, but an ordinarily boss wouldn’t loose his job 20 years later after a newspaper story. The perils of being a celebrity.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

> ... the billions of dollars that women invest annually in make-up and clothes they hope will make them more desirable to the opposite sex."


And the billions of dollars spent annually by the fashion industry, Hollywood, advertisements, pop music videos, etc. that promote dressing this way.

Perhaps the author is not trying to blame the victim so much as to indicated that one needs to be wise. Why draw the wrong kind of attention to oneself.

Interesting how the Amish don't have this problem.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Fritz Kobus said:


> And the billions of dollars spent annually by the fashion industry, Hollywood, advertisements, pop music videos, etc. that promote dressing this way.
> 
> I would not say blame the victim but it pays to be wise. Why draw the wrong kind of attention to oneself.
> 
> Interesting how the Amish don't have this problem.


Or Saudis.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2019)

Fritz Kobus said:


> And the billions of dollars spent annually by the fashion industry, Hollywood, advertisements, pop music videos, etc. that promote dressing this way.
> 
> Perhaps the author is not trying to blame the victim so much as to indicated that one needs to be wise. Why draw the wrong kind of attention to oneself.
> 
> Interesting how the Amish don't have this problem.


According to many accounts the Amish have just as much sexual violence as any other culture. It is an insular community and it is handled within the community without involving secular authorities, just like the child rapists in the Catholic Church.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I wonder of both groups ever heard about Domingo.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Baron Scarpia said:


> According to many accounts the Amish have just as much sexual violence as any other culture. It is an insular community and it is handled within the community without involving secular authorities, just like the child rapists in the Catholic Church.


I'm pretty sure that none of us know much about the incidence of sexual assault in either Amish or Islamic societies. But here is the view of one Muslim woman:

https://thecrimereport.org/2018/06/...-women-speak-out-about-years-of-sexual-abuse/

Stricter laws and precepts - and more "modest" dress - appear not to guarantee less sexual abuse. They do make people less likely to report it and talk about it.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

This discussion is getting perilously close to "She was asking for it."


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2019)

KenOC said:


> the billions of dollars that women invest annually in make-up and clothes they hope will make them more desirable to the opposite sex."


This too is a simplistic reduction of the motivations of women in dressing they way they do: it's all just about sex. Yes, the human race is (fortunately for our survival) driven by some basic animal urges and x,000 years of evolution, social conditioning and 'civilisation' have done nothing to diminish those primal instincts. But we have learned to find ways to manage (just - obviously not entirely successfully) those instincts in our communities which are rather different and more complex than the ape societies where the silverback is king. The human psyche is no longer just a product of basic urges.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> I'm pretty sure that none of us know much about the incidence of sexual assault in either Amish or Islamic societies. But here is the view of one Muslim woman:
> 
> https://thecrimereport.org/2018/06/...-women-speak-out-about-years-of-sexual-abuse/
> 
> Stricter laws and precepts - and more "modest" dress - appear not to guarantee less sexual abuse. They do make people less likely to report it and talk about it.


You are correct that hard numbers are hard to come by, but Amish women have also come forward and written about sexual abuse. In societies like the Amish where women are taught from an early age to be submissive to men it is clear that abuse is not reported, not clear that it doesn't happen.

https://amishamerica.com/sexual-abuse-amish-communities


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2019)

KenOC said:


> An interesting article ultimately critical of the way Placido was treated. Written by a lady lawyer.


I think the credentials of the magazine it is published in are greater indications of where the author is coming from than either her gender or profession. Quillette claims to be _"a platform for free thought. We respect ideas, even dangerous ones."_ What that means is that it is a platform for countering prevailing PC ideas, as this article does. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but a quick skim of the other articles suggests it is only interested in polemic for its own sake - not to promote real free thought.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Baron Scarpia said:


> According to many accounts the Amish have just as much sexual violence as any other culture. It is an insular community and it is handled within the community without involving secular authorities, just like the child rapists in the Catholic Church.


those 'accounts' were the same kind as those used against the man in question right now.

smearing campaigns perpetrated by the media - bad example.

and someone should have known better.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Stricter laws and precepts - and more "modest" dress - appear not to guarantee less sexual abuse. They do make people less likely to report it and talk about it.


But conversely, "tights" worn as pants, tube tops showing side-boob, and t shirts which appear to be worn with no pants might be a guarantee to increase the likelihood of sexual abuse.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Or Saudis.


I wonder what they have on under those robes...?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Oh, but I would be too weakened to do such a thing, after the trauma of being _visually harassed_ by such apparel. The only thing I would be able to do is call my lawyer.


Let me know how that goes.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> But conversely, "tights" worn as pants, tube tops showing side-boob, and t shirts which appear to be worn with no pants might be a guarantee to increase the likelihood of sexual abuse.


It's those who commit the abuse that must change their behaviours.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> But conversely, "tights" worn as pants, tube tops showing side-boob, and t shirts which appear to be worn with no pants *might be a guarantee* to increase the likelihood of sexual abuse.


"Might be a guarantee"? Is that some kind of confession?



> I wonder what they have on under those robes...?


Apparently it is.



> Oh, but I would be too weakened to do such a thing, after *the trauma of being visually harassed by such apparel*. The only thing I would be able to do is call my lawyer.


I'd suggest calling your psychiatrist, before you _need_ a lawyer.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Baron Scarpia said:


> According to many accounts the Amish have just as much sexual violence as any other culture. It is an insular community and it is handled within the community without involving secular authorities, just like the child rapists in the Catholic Church.


I don't know if anyone has the statistics on that, but no community if immune to sexual sins. However, my point is that the Amish women don't spend huge sums of money to look sexy on the street, and because of their modest dress, do not attract the wrong kind of attention. And their men are not inadvertently enticed by them.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> I think the credentials of the magazine it is published in are greater indications of where the author is coming from than either her gender or profession. Quillette claims to be _"a platform for free thought. We respect ideas, even dangerous ones."_ What that means is that it is a platform for countering prevailing PC ideas, as this article does. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but a quick skim of the other articles suggests it is only interested in polemic for its own sake - not to promote real free thought.


I suspect that if the site's views aligned with your own, you wouldn't use the word "polemic" to describe its contents, and you would be quite happy to agree that it "promotes real free thought."

Might be wrong, of course, but it seems that's usually the way such things work!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I don't know if anyone has the statistics on that, but no community if immune to sexual sins. However, my point is that the Amish women don't spend huge sums of money to look sexy on the street, and because of their modest dress, do not attract the wrong kind of attention. And their men are not inadvertently enticed by them.


The info that is given here is not very pleasant:
_"From the day you're born, especially as a female, you're groomed to be a victim. ... Survivor Speaks Out Against Amish Rape Culture Ahead Of Sentencing_"
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/surv...rape-culture-ahead_b_581e7b02e4b0334571e09cfd

Though lesser known perhaps, some strict religious communities extend the same logic that is implied say by female Hijab etc, to men's clothing. For some obscure reason, those views, say prohibiting t-shirts, seem to have gained much less ground generally, though.
"_... we can draw this conclusion that the man too, just like the Woman must not wear clothing that is not appropriate, tight fitting, and those that show off his body ... Thus, in order for women not to fall into this sin, it has been recommended by our 'Ulama that men cover their entire body, and should refrain from wearing short-sleeve shirts, and clothing that shows off their bodies._"
https://www.al-islam.org/articles/islamic-hijab-men-shaykh-saleem-bhimji


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2019)

KenOC said:


> I suspect that if the site's views aligned with your own, you wouldn't use the word "polemic" to describe its contents, and you would be quite happy to agree that it "promotes real free thought."
> 
> *Might be wrong*, of course, but it seems that's usually the way such things work!


Might be wrong? Definitely.

This is the kind of website that writes about, for example, "Political correctness gone mad" and regard it as a dangerous heresy (and therefore free thought). That would be fine if it also published articles that offered other alternative insights. What "free thought" means in this context is right wing libertarian thinking (one of the associate editors is Toby Young: he ain't no free thinker!)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> ...What "free thought" means in this context is right wing libertarian thinking...


As opposed, I assume, by left-wing authoritarian thinking which _is _"free thought." You seem to be confirming my comment quite nicely!


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2019)

KenOC said:


> As opposed, *I assume,* by left-wing authoritarian thinking which _is _"free thought." You seem to be confirming my comment quite nicely!


Wrong assumption. Left-wing authoritarian thinking is no more free thought than the right wing. What I would be looking for (as I already said, but you seem to want to ignore) is a range of articles offering both these perspectives and more.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2019)

Here's an interesting statistic.










File it under things that make you go "Hmmmmm."


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

It's a common misconception that what a victim wears or looks like matters.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Here's an interesting statistic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Primary cause. The rest of the items, other than walking alone, serve to stoke the desires of the rapist, and non-rapists as not all carry through on their desires. Walking alone certainly can play into the action. But my experience, particularly from high school and post high school days is that many men mentally rape most any woman they find attractive. I suspect that dressing like the Amish would significantly reduce that, or simply not wearing body conforming clothing would help a lot. Men and women should dress modestly.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

The thread has gotten way off track. Please return to Domingo's accusation of sexual misconduct.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Some posts have been removed for moderator discussion and the thread has been closed to allow us to decide how to proceed.


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