# mp3 advice wanted



## Guest

I play all of my music through my Hi Fi system, but after a recent spell in Hospital I am considering a mp3 or ipod [I take it the difference is Apple versus the rest?], I know next to nothing about these new fangled thingies so any suggestions would be welcome.
How many hours of music will they hold, per GB
Prefer head phones not ear buds, 
Which is a reasonable make/model and what should I expect to pay


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## Yagan Kiely

iPod's force you to use iTunes for your music if you want to sync, which is fine for me since I love it. I think you can load it manually outside of iTunes though. Mp3s, on mid-high quality (NEVER GO LOWER THAN 128KBPS!!) I get a day or two of music on 8gbs. I suggest no less than 8gbs, because that gives you some variety.

The iPod is made very well (windows and mac), zune is possibly the only other alternative (although I personally can't stand it).

I wouldn't touch and iPod touch, bit of a leraning curve. Your best bet would probably be iPod Classic (US $249.00 120gb) or iPod Nano (US $149.00 8gb, $199,00 16gb).

Both of those can also be used as a storage device for anything else.

Might as well say, I'm trying to get a job at a mac store, so you know my bias.


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## Kuhlau

I've had long experience with numerous different makes and models of DAPs (Digital Audio Players), so maybe I can offer some pointers.

Firstly, choose a DAP with at least 2Gb of storage (about 20 albums in MP3 format encoded at 192kbps), and one that has a longish battery life - think in terms of 15 hours as a bare minimum.

Secondly, replace immediately the headphones/earbuds that come bundled with EVERY device. They tend to do a very poor job of letting you hear a DAP's full potential.

Thirdly, get a device that won't tie you down: i.e. iPods mean you HAVE to use iTunes. That's great for some people but I'd say it's inflexible. At the very least, you should get a DAP which you can add tracks to from a variety of media player software - Creative make a pretty good range, and their players are famed for their very natural sound quality and a signal-to-noise ratio of up to 97%.

Lastly, choose a DAP that suits your lifestyle. No sense in buying something that holds your entire collection if you only need to take a handful of albums with you wherever you're going.

FK


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## Yagan Kiely

Well, I disagree with the definitives in your post. If getting a device that ties you to iTunes don't get it, sure, but saying that you shouldn't get it is extreme. iTunes is a great music managing system, it's actually useful.

And creative's user interface and aesthetic appeal are both horrible.


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## opus67

I don't have a DAP, but here are some things of interest that might assist a purchase.

iPods don't necessarily need iTunes to transfer music b/w computer and itself. I know of many programs that will let you interface an iPod with a Linux box, off all things! 

Sansa (from SanDisk) is a brand that I have heard good things about. 

An mp3 file encoded at 320 kbps takes up 2.3 MB per minute.


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## Guest

I really only want to put some of my CDs onto it + a few from the computer


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## Weston

Andante said:


> I really only want to put some of my CDs onto it + a few from the computer


You can encode your own CD's to mp3 if you want to put more music on the device. Your computer may have this capablility already. If not, there are several free programs that do it. I'm pretty sure this is acceptable as long as you are not sharing the files.

A couple more caveats about iPods. Though you can use your computer to transfer files, you won't necessarily recognize the name of the file once it's transferred. It's some kind of proprietary file system I don't understand. So you will want to make sure the files have "media tags" showing the names of the pieces, the composer, conductor or whatever. Media tagging software is also freely available. (It's not as complicated as I'm making it sound in my clumsy way.)

Also -- for all their whizz bang hi tech bells and whistles, iPods are fragile things and the windows scratch VERY easily with routine use. You will want a sheath / protector thingy to go with it. You will also want a charger of some kind.

Don't let us scare you off from it. I really enjoy mine, though I use it for audiobooks more than for music.

Good luck.


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## altiste

You might want to try Variable Bit Rate instead of Constant Bit Rate to economise on space. I've been using VBR for mp3 on my website since someone pointed out that the better compression methods such as Ogg Vorbis uses VBR. It's also possible to put aiff files on an ipod instead of mp3, so the question is, is it worth it considering the big increase in space needed. If you are going to be using head phones not ear buds perhaps it's audible.


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## marval

I had a Sansa From SanDisk for Christmas.

I haven't had the chance to fully try it yet, so need to get to know it a bit better before I can comment.


Margaret


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## Guest

Well the Creative site shows some pretty fancy devices, why is their interface horrible ?? Is it difficult to use? 
As I would *not *be d/loading music direct from the web to the mp3 player I think I will stay away from iPod I take on board the comments re battery life and amount of storage, as you can never tell how long you will be away from your main music player storage would need to be at least between 30-50 Cds just to allow for variety and I would take it for granted that they come with a charger, my files on media player are wma, these would need to be converted to mp3? although I see that one of the Creative models will store wma as well, if I understand correctly. 
I have heard of Ogg Vorbis our local National Radio is considering using that method for downloads. I am learning 

Regarding the 192kbps recomended by kahlau, on the "Creative" mp3 I note that they have only 128kbps for mp3 and 64 for wma this would seem to be too low


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## Yagan Kiely

> I'm pretty sure this is acceptable as long as you are not sharing the files.


The IRAA are trying to say it's illegal, but it a proven accepted, and legal form of backup. At least in the EU, US and Australia.



> Though you can use your computer to transfer files, you won't necessarily recognize the name of the file once it's transferred. It's some kind of proprietary file system I don't understand. So you will want to make sure the files have "media tags" showing the names of the pieces, the composer, conductor or whatever


iTunes does that for you through, Gracenote CDDB. Also, if using an iPod, there is no need to use external programs for tagging, it can be done inside iTunes.



> iPods are fragile things and the windows scratch VERY easily with routine use. You will want a sheath / protector thingy to go with it.


Just get a plastic thingy to cover the screen (it'll stick on). Otherwise, they are not fragile (not to mention that scratches have little to do with 'fragile' anyway). Obviously with the exception of the iPod classic (it's a HD so it is obvioiusly mroe delecate 0 moving parts), but the nano is a very sturdy device. It can be washed (must be dried use!), run over by a car, dropped on cement from a moving car, the screen will likely break with the last two, but the actualy device still works.



> Is it difficult to use?
> As I would *not *be d/loading music direct from the web to the mp3 player I think I will stay away from iPod I take on board the comments re battery life and amount of storage


iTunes doesn't mean downloading music at all. You _can_ download online (I have once or twice), but 99% of my music is not from the iTunes store. Also, the iPod has a very competent battery, I can watch around 6 hours of movies on the iPod without recharging. (iPod nano), and has a huge storage amount. I don't see your complaint.

Both the WMA and AAC are horrible, avoid them and stick to MP3, it's just easier (until OGG and FLAC become more in use that is).



> Regarding the 192kbps recomended by kahlau, on the "Creative" mp3 I note that they have only 128kbps for mp3 and 64 for wma this would seem to be too low


Depends on the music, some popular music would be fine on 128.


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## Guest

*Ye Gods Sir,* there will be no pop music on my player

Is an iPod more difficult to load with your own CDs and is it harder to use?


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## Yagan Kiely

> Is an iPod more difficult to load with your own CDs and is it harder to use?


*If* you don't mind using iTunes, they are very easy to use with your own CDs, and the GUI is very intuitive.

I suggest that you try iTunes out before you make a decision. You can download it here. Give it a good try (new software take a while before you can actually make a educated decision on it). I suggest using the list view (as opposed to grid or cover flow), and make sure you rip CD's with high quality MP3.

If you want any help, PM me.

Basically, if you don't like iTunes, don't get an iPod. If you do like it, get one (I suggest the 16gb iPod nano which will give you a few days of music at high quality MP3). I find that iTunes is quite good for organisationg while windows media player is beyond horrible.

In terms of how much variety you get:
14.66 gbs give me 4.9 days worth of continuous music. My collection is 17 days worth for 40gbs.


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## soundandfury

*Riaa==ira?*



Yagan Kiely said:


> The IRAA


Was that intentional? Or perhaps a Freudian slip?


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## Yagan Kiely

Fingers got too fast for each other.


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## Guest

After a bit of research I have found these two models if I have understood the tech info correctly you can use a memory card, which would make the 8gb upgradable if needed in the future, any comments would be welcome
http://au.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=213&subcategory=214&product=17810&listby= = 8gb $250NZ

http://au.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=213&subcategory=214&product=17811 = 16gb $350NZ

Yagan, thanks for your offer of help it is appreciate but have decided not to go the iPod way.
*PS* Re SD Memory Cards, do these store music or just pics??


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## Ciel_Rouge

Hi Andante,

I have some experience with DAPs so here is my little piece of advice:

1. SD cards store ANY type of file. They are used in cameras for storing photos, but you may connect them to a card reader and put any type of files on them. However, you should check if the DAP you have chosen can actually read and play music files from the card. The links you provided indeed only mention viewing photos from the card.

2. Each brand has its characteristic sound signature.

Those from Creative tend to sound "warmer" but the trebles are still crisp. I enjoyed all sorts of classical as well as jazz and ethnic on those.

Those from Sony lean towards the "colder", "drier" side with more pronounced highs and mids but the bass is still OK - I especially enjoyed violin concertos on a Sony with ultra high precision in the upper range. They are also famous for very short charging times and long battery life. Here you can see the models available in your area:

http://www.sony.co.nz/products/product/mp3-walkman/s-series-video-noise-cancelling.jsp

http://www.sony.com.au/walkman/catalog/product.jsp?categoryId=30333

3. Will you have access to a USB port to load the battery using a computer? If not, you should make sure that you get an adapter that allows you to charge your player from a regular power outlet (not all DAPs include that option).

4. Listening to DAPs is not only about choosing the right DAP. It is about choosing the right COMBINATION of DAP and headphones. The same device connected to one set of headphones may sound "crappy" whereas the very same device connected to a matching pair sounds "amazing". What kind of headphones do you intend to use?


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## Guest

*Hi Ciel_Rouge,* thanks for all the info, I had not thought about a mains charger but it would be an absolute must so have emailed the Company to find out if one is available, this is all I could find on their site: it says Power Charging what ever that means










I will have to try the phones that come with it


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## Ciel_Rouge

Andante said:


> I will have to try the phones that come with it


 You DO NOT want to do THAT. The earbuds that come with DAPs are all... crappy and they will make ANY reasonable DAP sound like a piece of junk. Whatever you buy, never try the earbuds they give you in the box with a newly purchased DAP because this is where all manufacturers are saving by giving you a great player but really cheap earbuds.

However, I can see that with this particular model you get a more decent Creative EP-830. Nonetheless, be advised that they are IN EAR phones which means they go deeper, straight into the ear canal. There are people who like this sort of thing. Still, I suppose you might not like sticking something that deep into your ear. They do that to make the bass more pronounced but I doubt it would be beneficial in classical music.

I thought you are already using some sort of headphones and would be willing to plug them in to the new DAP. Still, most DAPs are too weak to drive large headphones (they will play very quiet and the quality of sound will be worse than with earbuds) and thus they require amplifiers which must be purchased separately from third parties. Also, some people find headphones highly uncomfortable since they are pressing against your temple giving you a headache. There are different shapes of the head and different shapes of headphones, but if you have a large head it is possible you will not find a comfortable model easily.

All in all, if you do not have any experience with DAPs nor headphones, earbuds or in ear earphones, I'd suggest the following:

1. Get the Creative as it seems it can indeed be charged from a socket in the wall through a special adapter or check if you can get a similar charger from Sony. The Sony is actually famous for holding long without charging (maybe 2-3 days) so it could be a good choice if you will not have ANY possibility to charge your DAP there.

2. Purchase good earbuds separately, preferrably some decent earbuds that go into your ear but NOT into your ear canal. They are not very expensive but will give you decent sound quality and wearing comfort. Do not worry about hygene issues as long as you put them into some container after use and do not leave them to touch the floor or a desktop.

3. Encode music from your CDs at 320 kbps. Having a lot of music in bad quality will not give you as much satisfaction as having less music with superb quality. The difference between 128 kbps and 320 kbps is readily perceivable in ANY kind of music.


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## Yagan Kiely

> The difference between 128 kbps and 320 kbps is readily perceivable in ANY kind of music.


It actually depends on the encoding, and it isn't always 'readily' perceivable on ALL music......



> NOT into your ear canal.


Completely disagree, it takes a while to get used to the alien feeling, but it blocks out sound VERY well, and doesn't fall out easily. Perhaps, rather than shouting NOT to get them, actually explain why your _opinion_ is not to use them, then it would actually be helpful.



> Do not worry about hygene issues as long as you put them into some container after use and do not leave them to touch the floor or a desktop.


Unless you are Mr. Burns from the Simpsons, you don't really have to worry about the floor and especially the desktop.

What is with all these absolutes everyone is recommending?? If there is one 'absolute' you need to agree with it is that don't take any absolute as what the author intends it to be, they are opinions. Meizu make very good earphones.


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## Mark Harwood

I find my Sony Walkman mp3 very easy to use, and it covers the other bases too. It cost about £80 last year.


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## Ciel_Rouge

Yagan Kiely: sure, I was just expressing my own personal opinion and did not intend to make it sound like "absolute truth" because everyone has different preferences.



Yagan Kiely said:


> Perhaps, rather than shouting NOT to get them, actually explain why your _opinion_ is not to use them, then it would actually be helpful.


Sure, here it goes: first of all - amplifying the bass beyond "natural" by making one's skull vibrate  does not seem to work for me - I perceived the sound as highly unnatural, uncomfortable and not adding anything musically. It might work for other genres or other people, but it did not work for me with classical. Also, the hygene concern is much greater as the skin inside the ear canal is very sensitive and wearing such things may cause increased earwax buildup. Again, perhaps not in everyone.

I also do not see much point in totally blocking outside noises when listening to music. You won't hear what is going on around you if something happens, you will also not hear people approaching you.



Yagan Kiely said:


> Unless you are Mr. Burns from the Simpsons, you don't really have to worry about the floor and especially the desktop.


I kindly disagree on this one. I read a study that clearly showed that there are more bacteria and other nastiness on a desktop than on a toilet seat 

Coming back to the 128 kbps / 320 kbps difference - it would be great if you could give an example of a piece where there is no readily noticable difference in sound quality. I suppose 256 and 320 could not be that easily discernible, but 128 and 320 are worlds apart for me.


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## bongos

hi Andante , go to PRICE SPY /mp3 players that will really help you


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## Yagan Kiely

> Sure, here it goes: first of all - amplifying the bass beyond "natural" by making one's skull vibrate  does not seem to work for me - I perceived the sound as highly unnatural, uncomfortable and not adding anything musically. It might work for other genres or other people, but it did not work for me with classical. Also, the hygene concern is much greater as the skin inside the ear canal is very sensitive and wearing such things may cause increased earwax buildup. Again, perhaps not in everyone.


Perhaps try a good quality one, because the Sennheiser that I have tried is not like this. Also, it is extremely over-sensitive and paranoid to actually think oh hygene as a reason.



> I also do not see much point in totally blocking outside noises when listening to music. You won't hear what is going on around you if something happens, you will also not hear people approaching you.


HUGE distraction, especially to classical music as you can;t hear the inner voices as much and miss a lot of the (harmonic, and possibly texteral) colour.



> I kindly disagree on this one. I read a study that clearly showed that there are more bacteria and other nastiness on a desktop than on a toilet seat


That still says nothing, there is more bacterier on a kitchen plate than a toilet. Don't let your earphones touch a kitchen plate also?



> Coming back to the 128 kbps / 320 kbps difference - it would be great if you could give an example of a piece where there is no readily noticable difference in sound quality. I suppose 256 and 320 could not be that easily discernible, but 128 and 320 are worlds apart for me.


Semi-quiet pop songs without much dynamic difference or tonal extremes. Also if it is encoded with lib, it is much better.


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## Ciel_Rouge

Yagan Kiely said:


> Also, it is extremely over-sensitive and paranoid to actually think oh hygene as a reason.


Well, I thought wearing a mask over one's face in public is oversensitive and not putting one's earbuds on dirty surfaces is just... thoughtful, just like avoiding prolonged exposure to loud noises. But I won't comment on that further, I do not intend to derail the thread on this issue 



Yagan Kiely said:


> HUGE distraction, especially to classical music as you can;t hear the inner voices as much and miss a lot of the (harmonic, and possibly texteral) colour.


I am still quite a beginner in the field of serious music. Could you kindly explain to me what "inner voices" are?



Yagan Kiely said:


> Semi-quiet pop songs without much dynamic difference or tonal extremes. Also if it is encoded with lib, it is much better.


Well, I suppose if the initial sound is limited in some way right from the start, that would indeed not have any perceivable effect. Still, I rather meant things like jazz, ethnic or classical or maybe even rock and heavy metal - I have the impression that the perceived difference between 128 kbps and 320 kbps is huge there and just striking. Also, I suppose Andante intends to listen to classical and not pop on his new DAP 

Andante: The best of luck in choosing the player and earbuds that will be "right for you" and please tell us about your experiences with a DAP as a source in your daily listening experience


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## Guest

Will do, after finally selecting one I find there are none available in NZ [sold out] so I am trying Australia, could be a long haul


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## Yagan Kiely

> Well, I thought wearing a mask over one's face in public is oversensitive and not putting one's earbuds on dirty surfaces is just... thoughtful, just like avoiding prolonged exposure to loud noises. But I won't comment on that further, I do not intend to derail the thread on this issue


Let me start again, cut carried away; there is no real risk at all of any infection (unless you have a wound or a current infection). People wearing masks in public is over sensitive, however, asia obviously had its reason of bird flu. I believe Japanese culture is being to sensitive also when if you have a cold you put your face in a mask... Getting colds is actually not bad for you, and ESPECIALLY exposure to bacteria and other things is actually good for you which is why people on farms tend to get less problems (from bacteria etc.) later in life than people in the city.



> I am still quite a beginner in the field of serious music. Could you kindly explain to me what "inner voices" are?


You know the choir? S A T B? Well, A and T are the inner voices, and these are lost when there is distracting sounds. Often the bass is very much stifled also, leaving you with just the high notes.

Oh, and I have some the Mozart on www.mozart-archiv.de is EXCEPTIONAL quality, considering the compression... You can definitely hear it is not high, but you would not guess it was 96 kbps...


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## Ciel_Rouge

Yagan Kiely: thank you for your kind explanations. I checked the Mozart site and the files sound indeed surprisingly good.

Andante: how about ebay New Zealand? Perhaps someone not far away from you has a DAP to sell.

http://pages.ebay.com/nz/


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## Guest

I have located and ordered one from Australia [late Fri] works out cheaper than NZ even allowing for Air Freight, but the order although accepted and charged to me will not be confirmed until Monday, so I wait in hope that they have not also sold out, in the meantime I am frantically loading my favourite CDs to the computer via VBR mp3. regards A......


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## bongos

which model have you bought, Andante?


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## Guest

bongos I went for "Creative Zen X-If 16GB" this has a memory card slot and can also access my wireless network at home [if I can work out how to do it] so I can also listen to all the Internet Radio stations via RECIVA.
I used Price spy to search all NZ sites and all were sold out so emailed manufactures and they gave me a list of their Aussy agents of which only 2 showed this particular model "in stock" it must be a very popular player

Link= http://au.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=213&subcategory=214&product=17811&listby=


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## Guest

*Progress report*:
My whole life now seems to be ripping my favourite Cds over to the Computer in mp3 format, I am now into my 4th day, I only hope that the player will retrieve from Computer OK, have come across another tarnished CD just the last track skips as usual. It seems impossible that all this music will go onto such a small device.


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## Yagan Kiely

You are ripping in high quality MP3 I hope. And if it is MP3, there is ALWAYS going to be a way to make it go onto the device. And if it's 16gbs (?) you should get around 5 days worth of music, give or take.


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## Guest

I am using FreeRip with VBR, on those that I have checked the rate is from 128 to 192kbps it seems to test the track and then decide which rate is suitable, I can not find a way to adjust the rate? I have listened to some converted tracks through my Sennheiser HD580 Precision head phones direct from the computer and they don’t sound too bad, if they sound this good on the mp3 player I will be satisfied, I will let you know.


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## Guest

I am now finding that the Variable bit rate is not all that good, can any one recommend a CD to mp3 converter with adjustable bit rate rate [say up to 320kbps] with tag setting capabilities, preferably not NCH which I found a bit tricky


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## leadmx

I have been using windows media player. If you go to RIP and hit the drop down menu, then go to "more options" and set it to MP3 under rip format you then can select up to 320 on the bit rate. Thats what I use for instrumental music. Other types of music that quality is not a must I set back to 120 or so to save space. I've got an 8gb RCA with about 70 cds on it and still have some room. Out of all that though only about 15 or so are worthy of a high bit rate. Good luck to ya.


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## Guest

Thanks leadmx I will try it out, I have played around with the equaliser on the player, made a few adjustments which have made quite a bit of difference to the sound.


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## Guest

Well, after loading up the mp3 @ VBR I was pleasantly surprised at the quality (I found the equaliser on the mp3 and did a few tweaks) on about 80% it was quite good the others I have deleted and reloaded @256kbps, (thanks to leadmx for the media player tip) 
I still have 3.6GB free space left, the only problem was finding what I wanted on the player, being new to this sort of thing I did not tag correctly and in some cases I left it without a tag relying on the CD info. 
The canal type ear pieces are much more comfortable than the ear buds that I used before and they do sound very good but I have not done any long listening spells so they may prove a pain in the proverbial, I found the 256 rate was the one to use, in most cases I could not tell the difference from the 320, the Creative interface loader takes a bit of getting used to but that is probably my fault, in all I can recommend the Creative, it really surprised me how good they can sound, thanks for your help and advise.


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## leadmx

Glad to hear your pleased with your MP3. I listen to mine all the time. I also use the "in-ear" type, even if I am not listening to music they do a better job of blocking out noise then the ear plugs the company provides me, so at work they are in most of the time. I have not had any problems with them ever hurting except when I had a cold or something and it moved into my left ear and I couldn't wear them for about a week. Check something else out, most of them now days will allow you to keep digital photos on them and view as well as videos. I keep pictures of the kids on mine instead of wallets, well in my wallet.


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## Guest

Yes all my pics have auto loaded onto C/central and can be transferred, but it is something that I doubt if I will ever use, modern technology eh


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