# OK... What's wrong with me?



## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

I have never liked the final movement of Beethoven's 9th. I actually dislike it. On a melodic level, I consider it one of the weakest movements in all his symphonies. The other 3 movements of the symphony are perhaps his greatest achievement, but that finale...that finale is plain silly sounding to me. It sounds like variations on Yankee Doodle. I'm not trying to troll here, although it may seem like it. I love Beethoven and I love the symphony in general. My favorite Beethoven symphony is actually the 8th, but I'll admit that the 3rd, 5th and 7th are more impressive works. 

What am I missing about that 9th finale?

To me, the oft-compared finale of Brahms' 1st is so much more moving...the Beethoven 9th Finale sounds like it was written by a lesser experienced composer to me.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

DavidMahler said:


> I have never liked the final movement of Beethoven's 9th. I actually dislike it. On a melodic level, I consider it one of the weakest movements in all his symphonies. The other 3 movements of the symphony are perhaps his greatest achievement, but that finale...that finale is plain silly sounding to me. It sounds like variations on Yankee Doodle. I'm not trying to troll here, although it may seem like it. I love Beethoven and I love the symphony in general. My favorite Beethoven symphony is actually the 8th, but I'll admit that the 3rd, 5th and 7th are more impressive works.
> [...]


There's probably more wrong with you than can be dealt with in this forum... but failing to connect with 9.IV is just a 'human condition'. Even I, with my vast and nearly eternal listening experience, have to approach the movement as being a collage in order to digest it.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I admire the sentiment of the Finale, and I love the last minute or so, but *most* of the vocal writing is (musically) painful and awkward-sounding for me. There are a few really natural-seeming and gorgeous moments, but for the most part I've never much liked it. Some vocal/choral music I really do love, by the way (Brahms comes immediately to mind - the Alto Rhapsody, the German Requiem, the Gypsy songs for small ensemble), so it isn't by any means a prejudice of mine against vocal music.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

you don't like even this wonderfull section?

(from 1:35, start the video a few seconds before, to 3:20)


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

While my favorite movement of the piece is the third, the fourth movement is the epitome of all that is music to me. The way he revisits the previous motifs...the way the double basses play the Ode and, oh, the sound of the violins as they first come in and counter it...the intensity and power of the timpani that seems to come out of nowhere just before we hear those first, lovely notes from the tenor voice...then there's that incredible orchestral sections where every instrument, it seems, gets its moment in the limelight...then, just when one has had enough heart-race, a beautiful horn repeats a single note, over and over until...a blast from the choir at full volume fills the air with pure sound,...only to be stopped by a strange minor key...oh, gosh,...I'm just sitting here hearing the whole thing in my head when I should be listening...the last thing I'll mention is the section just before the absolute finale where the four vocal soloists sing the most amazing words,...words I've never learned because I don't even want to know what they're saying, the notes are so beautiful...just as the soprano hits an almost impossibly high note, they all fade away and well,...we all know what comes after that.


Thanks for reminding me that I haven't heard this in so long. Hope you like it one day.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

I appreciate it's construction, but the melody just isn't moving enough to make the revisiting of motifs meaningful to me. As I said, it resembles Yankee Doodle very much.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

Actually your dislike of the 9th and especially the 4th movement is more common than you might think. My wife's Aunt who taught piano for 60 years hated the 9th. Ido not exactly hate it but it is not my favorite. That distinction is reserved for the 7th. Bear in mind that when Beethoven composed the 9th he was working from his remembrance of sounds. Any recordings of the 9th I have were purchased because of specific singers. My favorite is Roger Norringtons because he gets it over with more quickly.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

GoneBaroque said:


> My favorite is Roger Norringtons because he gets it over with more quickly.


In the future please preface posts if they're going to be funny..... I just burst out laughing in the office...gonna get me fired


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I'm with you all the way. Three decent movements and then that fourth. Yuck.
And I am not against voices in symphonies (Mahler IV and II for instance are absolutely brilliant).


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> *OK... What's wrong with me?*


I believe you suffer from Symphonist's Cramp. It's the most deadly of British diseases.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Do you want to like it even less? Yes? Here you are:


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Aksel said:


> Do you want to like it even less? Yes? Here you are:


Omg...is that opening tempo a joke or something?

Edit: Oh no! I spoke too soon. ALL the tempos are a joke! >.<


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Aksel said:


> Do you want to like it even less? Yes? Here you are:


Either the conductor is a tyrant, or the musicians went along with it to get him fired.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

violadude said:


> Omg...is that opening tempo a joke or something?


lol...na,...the conductor just handed out quaaludes to the entire orchestra and then took the rest of the bottle...i remember when I first saw this; it is utterly mind-boggling to comprehend how something could be so wrong. My favorite part is the winds at about 2:21...reminds me of being in the ol' band room in high school.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

violadude said:


> Omg...is that opening tempo a joke or something?
> 
> Edit: Oh no! I spoke too soon. ALL the tempos are a joke! >.<


Actually, no. The conductor, Maximianno Cobra (which, incidentally is a super bad-*** name) believes that Beethoven's metronome markings shouldn't be taken seriously since he was sort of mad. So he conducts everything Beethoven ever wrote in half tempo. The last movement of Beethoven's 9th, which should take about 23-24 minutes under any other conductor takes well over 40 when conducted by him. There is a thread about him buried not too deeply within this forum if I remember correctly.

Also, while not Beethoven, it is positively hilarious anyway. That poor, poor soprano:


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I fail to hear Yankee Doodle in the piece, but even so, it's not really a melodic movement. It's motivic, or maybe thematic. It weaves together several unlikely themes, and then in a massive surprise ploy plays many of them simultaneously. That still seems unexpected even when you know it's coming. And that's just one of its many surprises.

[Ahhh. This would be a fine evening to re-experience this piece. I don't do it very often so as not to wear it out.]


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

I believe what you're recoiling against is the aggrandisement of this particular work by people whose motives are, shall we say, extra-musical. 

I understand that Beethoven deliberately wrote a simple tune to carry words expressing universal brotherhood so that all men and women could identify with it. I guess that many people actually do identify with it for that reason. However, some people, who might be familiar with, say, the op 130 quartet, might find it banal, just as most of the population will never trouble themselves to listen to op 130.

The problem is compounded by the fact that Beethoven was not intrinsically a vocal composer. Of course, he wrote vocal music but the absence of a long string of operas in his output and the presence of symphonies, string quartets and piano sonatas tends to make me conclude he was on the Apollo side of the Apollo/Dionysus divide (cf Verdi). Which means that, when he did need to go for the emotional killer blow, he had one hand tied behind his back.

And, while we might praise him for the invention of the symphony-with-choral-finale, is it actually a viable genre? Really? However much we might respond emotionally to, say, Mahler 2, is this concept actually symphonic? A symphony in which the chorus participate throughout might be more credible (as Mahler must have concluded).

And, finally, the tessitura of the choral soprano and tenor parts is notoriously - I would say gratuitously - high. It's not obvious to me why this has to be the case, but it must have been years since he had actually heard a choir singing - or talked to choristers. 

Ultimately, whether one is affected to this music is entirely a personal response. But there are sufficient reasons why one might be left cold by it for you not worry if you are.


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> And, while we might praise him for the invention of the symphony-with-choral-finale, is it actually a viable genre? Really? However much we might respond emotionally to, say, Mahler 2, is this concept actually symphonic? A symphony in which the chorus participate throughout might be more credible (as Mahler must have concluded).


I'm not sure it's viable as a genre on it's own, but I see no reason why it shouldn't (and didn't) work as an 'novelty' idea. Why must a symphony adhere to the traditional conception? Debussy has the last word on this: 'the only law is pleasure'. Schoenberg's second string quartet uses a soprano voice for the final movements. Is it still a 'string quartet'? Who cares? Is it a good piece of music? Yes, I think so.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Aksel said:


> Do you want to like it even less? Yes? Here you are:


Wow, this is marvelous! I mean that they can play that long without laughing.


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

aleazk said:


> you don't like even this wonderfull section?
> 
> (from 1:35, start the video a few seconds before, to 3:20)


Yeah, that's my favorite part of the movement, too.

I actually quite like the bit at 7:46 as well.

I only started listening to the 9th properly just recently. I was reluctant at first because of how overplayed the Ode to Joy is in other settings, but in context of the entire symphony, I find it fits pretty well; but really, for that particular section, it's really the accompanying strings that make it for me.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I enjoy the vocal lines immensely. It is a worthy early addition to the fine German tradition, that began with Mozart's Zauberflöte and was fully realized with Wagner and Strauss, of trying to blow up poor sopranos on stage.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I think we should mention an interesting historical aspect of the 4th movement. Beethoven originally had an idea to compose an independent ode based on the final movement's famous theme and text. At some stage later for whatever reason, he incorporated it fully into the symphony instead. This could partly explain why the 4th movement appears disjointed etc. and the explicit need to unite all four movements at the very beginning of the 4th movement with each preceeding movement's main theme and instrument recitative.

My favourite part of the whole symphony is the Adagio molto e cantabile section of the third movement.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Couchie said:


> I enjoy the vocal lines immensely. It is a worthy early addition to the fine German tradition, that began with Mozart's Zauberflöte and was fully realized with Wagner and Strauss, of trying to blow up poor sopranos on stage.


I agree completely...hey, Couch, you're about to hit a grand!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

kv466 said:


> I agree completely...hey, Couch, you're about to hit a grand!


 As are you^.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Chill out. Just enjoy the symphony no9. Or switch off your music player when movement 4 comes. Even without it, its stilla great piece of work and long enough to be weighty./


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

When I hear MR Cobra I am so sad to see that you just need to know the right people to be given an orchestra to conduct. Must be so hard for competent conductors to hear someone like this stealing your job, opportunity.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Actually your dislike of the 9th and especially the 4th movement is more common than you might think. 

Especially among those that don't really connect with vocal music in a big way.


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

kv466 said:


> While my favorite movement of the piece is the third, the fourth movement is the epitome of all that is music to me. The way he revisits the previous motifs...the way the double basses play the Ode and, oh, the sound of the violins as they first come in and counter it...the intensity and power of the timpani that seems to come out of nowhere just before we hear those first, lovely notes from the tenor voice...then there's that incredible orchestral sections where every instrument, it seems, gets its moment in the limelight...then, just when one has had enough heart-race, a beautiful horn repeats a single note, over and over until...a blast from the choir at full volume fills the air with pure sound,...only to be stopped by a strange minor key...oh, gosh,...I'm just sitting here hearing the whole thing in my head when I should be listening...the last thing I'll mention is the section just before the absolute finale where the four vocal soloists sing the most amazing words,...*words I've never learned because I don't even want to know what they're saying, the notes are so beautiful*...just as the soprano hits an almost impossibly high note, they all fade away and well,...we all know what comes after that.
> 
> Thanks for reminding me that I haven't heard this in so long. Hope you like it one day.


I like the whole description, but bolded part most of all - it reminds me of a quote about Mozart's Sull'aria from Shawshank Redemption: _I have no idea to this day what those two Italian ladies were singing about. Truth is, I don't want to know. Some things are best left unsaid. I'd like to think they were singing about something so beautiful, it can't be expressed in words, and makes your heart ache because of it. _


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

(I actually love it, but yeah)


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## guitarissts (Oct 17, 2011)

Does anyone have the tab format for this...or let me know where to find it...thanks


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Do you want to like it even less? Yes? Here you are:


Oh zOMG - this might be what first occasioned that phrase, "What a drag." LOL

"Ratings Disabled" is never really a good sign when it comes to Youtube postings. Now there are some video/audios who attract crazed flame-war incendiaries, and others, like this, who get so many thumbs down and accumulate highly negative, but reasonably so, comments that the uploader has no choice but to "disable" - or they would have to tend to weeding out the daily appearing streams of "zOMG that is awful" comments

This is just amaaaazingly at less than half tempo that it sounds like a very cautious read-through tempo for a group of amateurs.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Actually, no. The conductor, Maximianno Cobra (which, incidentally is a super bad-*** name) believes that Beethoven's metronome markings shouldn't be taken seriously since he was sort of mad. So he conducts everything Beethoven ever wrote in half tempo. The last movement of Beethoven's 9th, which should take about 23-24 minutes under any other conductor takes well over 40 when conducted by him. There is a thread about him buried not too deeply within this forum if I remember correctly.
> 
> Also, while not Beethoven, it is positively hilarious anyway. That poor, poor soprano:


"Every ***** (prostitute) needs a gimmick." -- I refer to this conductor, Not that poor Soprano....


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

I want to hear it at double the normal tempo now.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

DavidMahler said:


> OK... What's wrong with me?


Where do we even begin...?


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