# Bach Cantatas



## dionisio

I am thinking about getting a boxset of Bach's cantatas.

Any suggestions?

Thanks


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## Itullian

Of the ones out now, I guess Gardiners is the choice.

I'm hoping and waiting for a Suzuki box.


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## GioCar

For Suzuki, you can download all volumes at a very reasonable price from eclassical.com (the online retailer of all BIS recordings)
Today they have the vol.33 at 50% discount - their annual promotion for the advent calendar.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Any advice would be dependent upon your experience with Bach and the cantatas. The cantatas are a magnificent achievement... and incredible and incredibly varied body of music. As with any body of music of such merit, there is no such thing as a single "definitive" or "best" recording. There are, however, those that stand out. The old school set recorded by the RIAS (Radio in the American Sector... later the Radio-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin) was part of a project of cultural rebuilding after WWII and featured many brilliant singers including Fischer-Dieskau, Krebs and Giebel. The entire cantatas were never recorded, but this set includes marvelous performances... including the 140 that initially hooked me on Bach's vocal works. Karl Richter is another masterful conductor of Bach from the "old school".



Of the newer recordings of the complete cantata there are 5 sets that I am familiar with: Harnoncourt/Leonhardt, Helmuth Rilling, Ton Koopman, John Eliot Gardiner, and Masaaki Suzuki.

The Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set earns brownie points as one of the first (if not THE first) recording of the whole of the cantatas... and in early HIP (Historically Informed Performance) style. It is a bit rough around the edges and lacks the greater instrumental skills and singers of the other sets.

I have the whole Rilling set which was ridiculously priced at around $30 US at the time. Even at $70 US+ it is an almost obscene bargain. In spite of the price, the performances are more than solid, with often excellent soloists, a strong choir, and a lush orchestral sound. The only real strikes against it come if you prefer a more rapid and historically accurate (?) style.

Koopman's recordings are quite solid... from what I have heard. I simply feel that his orchestra and choir cannot quite equal Gardiner's Monteverdi Choir and English Baroque Soloists or Suzuki's Bach Collegium Japan. I also felt that I can only choose so many variations considering both time and money... and besides I did turn to Koopman as unrivaled for the music of Buxtehude.

Suzuki's recordings are unequaled in terms of sound quality. The performances are perfect... if not too perfect. There is a certain "coolness" to his performance. Suzuki also suffers in the earlier volumes in comparison with Gardiner with regard to the quality of his soloists. In the later volumes he can boast of singers of such quality as Robin Blaze and Peter Kooij.

This brings us to the John Eliot Gardiner set. Gardiner has at his disposal the brilliant Monteverdi Choir and English Baroque soloists... but he employs them in what are essentially "live" recordings... which lends a certain urgency... muscularity... spontaneity and excitement to the recordings. Gardiner also boasts some of the strongest solists including Michael Chance, Magdalena Kožená, James Gilchrist, Mark Padmore, Peter Harvey, etc...

Honestly, the cantatas are such a huge oeuvre that I can't imagine limiting myself to a single interpretation. Nor can I... or anyone else... advise you as to which interpretation you will enjoy the most. Beyond these already listed there are also:



This Gardiner set is another incredible value... on download. I purchased the discs for about $35 US 3 years ago and it remains one of the greatest purchases I ever made. It includes Gardiner's classic recording of the bigger choral works (Mass in B-minor, the St. John and Matthew Passions, the Magnificat, etc...) as well as 11 discs of the finest of Bach's cantatas. These are older... yet equally spectacular... recordings from the late 80s and 1990s released individually (as in image 2 above).

Other worthy recordings of individual cantatas include that of Lorrine Hunt Lieberson, Hans Hotter, the Purcell Quartet, Joshua Rifkin... and the spectacular renditions by Philippe Herreweghe including soloists such as Andreas Scholl.

Perhaps the best path is to get an number of individual recordings by the various conductors and decide who you enjoy the most... or rather purchase such a variety with the expectation of discovering the various approaches to this magnificent body of music.


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## leepee

The previous answer from StlukesguildOhio is so thorough and outstanding, I cannot add much but I will anyway.

I suspect that BIS will bring out a COMPLETE *Masaaki Suzuki *edition sometime soon. They are worth waiting for. 
If you can't wait and you desire a complete set, you may wish to obtain:

Bach: The Complete Cantatas by Johann Sebastian Bach, *Helmuth Rilling* and Bach-Collegium Stuttgart (Amazon $ 77)

OR you can get the entire BACH edition: 
The Complete Works of Johann Sebastian Bach - Bachakademie 10th Anniversary Special Collection [Box Set] (Amazon $235) and this set has the Helmuth Rilling set.

I love to hear different versions and find I like Rilling, Gardiner and Suzuki in a variety of Cantatas. It's a whole new world of listening and you need lots of time. If you have an extra hundred bucks laying around get the *Alfred Dürr BOOK*:

The Cantatas of J. S. Bach: With Their Librettos in German-English Parallel Text by Alfred Dürr and Richard D. P. Jones

Happy Cantata listening!


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## Winterreisender

The only other set I am aware of, which hasn't already been mentioned, is the recordings from Pieter Jan Leusink and the Netherlands Bach Collegium. This was the first set I heard, and for that reason have a special fondess for it, but from a more objective point of view I nevertheless think this group maintains a consistent high standard throughout the cycle and performs in an authentic, historically-informed manner.


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## dionisio

Thank you all for your suggestions!

Bach's cantatas isn't my safe zone, so i wanted the opinion of someone who knows better.

Initially i was thinking of Harnoncourt's but, based on your reviews, i'll think again. I'll see between Suzuki or Gardiner. As a Baroque Opera fan, i take preference for period instruments/accuracy.

Thank you once more


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## bigshot

Rilling has spectacular singing. Can't be topped on that aspect.


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## Svelte Silhouette

bigshot said:


> Rilling has spectacular singing. Can't be topped on that aspect.


In the thread on Haydn boxed sets you said that there is no such thing as 'best' BUT only good and bad ... 'can't be topped' surely means so can 'best' be applied to a singing performance BUT not to a symphonic one?

Harnoncourt's set is rather better imho with Koopman's akin to Rilling's ... all are good BUT though the Koopman is newer the Harnoncourt benefits from a superb CD transfer. If you don't like 'original instruments' then Rilling'll be thrilling.


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## Vinyl

If the cantatas are outside your comfort zone, why buy a complete set? 
Buy a few, find out which ones you like (or not), then buy a box with the confidence of your own opinion. 

I have the complete Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set, plus a bunch of other "singles". The complete set looks good on the shelf, but its a pretty overwhelming thing to owe yourself to get to know one day.


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## JSBach85

I don't want to open a new thread and instead I will stick in this. I have been listening to lots of cantatas recordings and finally I ordered the last limited box set of Suzuki.

In approx. two weeks I will own three complete Bach cantatas sets:

1. The Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra Choir / Ton Koopman









The biggest drawback of Kopman's set is that is really expensive, it hurt my credit card severely but after listening to some cantatas in youtube I decided to purchase it, a year ago and I don't regret it. The sound quality is better than Gardiner and almost the same as Suzuki. Koopman has Klaus Mertens, Pregardien, Paul Agnew and other great singers. Overall I am happy with it, despite sometimes lack of brightness and uses strings as continuo instead of organ/harpsichord.

2. The English Baroque Soloists / John Eliot Gardiner









The drawbacks of Gardiner are essentially a worse sound quality (recorded in live concerts) and a more theatrical conducting, lacking in devotion and sense of drama. However, The English Baroque Soloists performance is no less than excellent, along with one of the very best choirs ever performing Bach cantatas, The Monteverdi Choir. For some recordings I rather prefer Gardiner over Koopman and Suzuki while for others is not my reference. A great Bach's cantatas box set.

3. Bach Collegium Japan / Masaaki Suzuki (Limited edition)







*

*This is just one of the 5 volumes I own

The drawbacks of Suzuki box set is mainly the first recordings/volumes. Some singers are not technically prepared (Ingrid Schmithsüsen) and overall performance is below other conductors. However, with the following recordings, the quality improved to a point that Suzuki is my favourite option, also Suzuki uses less singers in his most recent recordings. Suzuki has great singers as well, such as Peter Kooij, Gerd Turk, Robin Blaze.

I can't say which complete cantata set is the best. I like to have a variety of options to compare each cantata performance and probably while for some cantatas I would go with Koopman, for others I would prefer Gardiner and/or Suzuki. I see Leonhardt/Harnoncourt as a good choice as well that I may get in the future.


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## bigshot

Repying to an ancient comment I missed before...



Svelte Silhouette said:


> In the thread on Haydn boxed sets you said that there is no such thing as 'best' BUT only good and bad ... 'can't be topped' surely means so can 'best' be applied to a singing performance BUT not to a symphonic one?


Everything has it's aspects that are strengths and others that are weaknesses. There is no overall best/perfect/the only one. There is only "this one is good for singing", "this one is best for orchestra", "this one has perfectly chosen tempi and dynamics". But now that I think about it. Rilling and Richter both have great singers. In the cantatas, I think the voices are very important.


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## JSBach85

I finally got the Suzuki last volume of limited edition. I also just ordered the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt complete cantatas box set. I will come back soon to give my opinion.


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## JSBach85

This is a photo I have taken with the four Bach cantatas sets I own:










From right to left: Suzuki/Bach Collegium Japan (55 cds), Gardiner/The English Baroque Soloists (56 cds), Harnoncourt/Leonhardt (60 cds), Koopman/The Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra & Choir (67 cds).

My most recent purchase was the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set. Is the only complete cantatas set containing boys choir and also the first performing them with Historically Informed Performance Practice. The sound quality is certainly poor compared to Koopman and Suzuki recordings, I wouldn't say the same for Gardiner recordings, as far as I know most of them are recorded in live concerts. In my opinion, the instruments performance are not as good as Suzuki and Gardiner but still I rather prefer the contrast and tempi used by Harnoncourt/Leonhardt over modern instrument recordings: Rilling and Richter. Finally, some of the vocal soloists are great singers: Kurt Equiluz, Max van Egmond, Paul Esswood.


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## les24preludes

I have a mostly complete set of the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt recordings and I still like them. They age well. 

For the more modern sets I would eliminate Leusink as non-competitive. Suzuki, Gardiner and Koopman are good choices, and you could pull out a number of cantatas where one or the other sounds best. My final "best" playlist in iTunes has more Koopman than the others - these are generally very musical interpretations. 

But I agree that some of the older German recordings like Richter are very dynamic and well sung. There are some individual performances that are worth getting, like Rifkin in #8 and Richter in #44.


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## OwenHorn

I know this is an old thread but I felt compelled to post that the Leusink version is the credibly good. Not just for the money. It has a boys choir which makes it u usual and more authentic I think.


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## Rogerx

OwenHorn said:


> I know this is an old thread but I felt compelled to post that the Leusink version is the credibly good. Not just for the money. It has a boys choir which makes it u usual and more authentic I think.


Do you mean the Christmas cantatas?


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## Josquin13

The current 'in progress' Bach Cantata cycle from Eric Milnes & Montreal Baroque is my personal favorite. But they're a long way from finishing the cycle, & it won't be boxed anytime in the near future. Milnes is progressing slowly, which means these are better rehearsed & prepared performances than one normally encounters. He also chooses his solo singers better than any conductor I know in the cantatas. For example, Monika Mauch has become one of my all-time favorite Bach sopranos, via Milnes' cycle. I especially appreciate that her intonation is flawless. But all of Milnes' singers have been first rate, so far. & Montreal Baroque is one of the better period instrument groups I've heard (at least, on their recordings).

The one drawback for some will be that it is a one-voice-to-a-part cycle. However, I don't find it underpowered, and the contrapuntal clarity and nimbleness gained in the choir is wonderful, and occasionally mind blowing--such as in the fugal opening to Cantata BWV 19:






The rest of their Michaelmas recordings are equally fine, too:





https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantate...44629399&sr=1-4&keywords=milnes+bach+montreal

In addition, I own multiple individual volumes from the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt, Koopman, and Gardiner cycles--all of which I find good to very good, but less consistent than Milnes, performance-wise (especially Leonhardt/Harnoncourt). In the past, I've also owned cantata recordings by Richter, which I don't listen to anymore, and Rilling, who I'll only occasionally listen to for the wonderful Bach singing of soprano Arleen Auger: https://www.amazon.com/Arleen-Auger...631350&sr=1-1&keywords=arleen+auger+sing+bach.

As for complete sets, I own the Suzuki box set, which I tend to prefer to Gardiner & Koopman for its slightly smaller scale performances, generally. As I don't believe that a Bach choir should exceed 16 singers (as happens with Gardiner & Koopman), but ideally, prefer 4-8 singers, for both aesthetic reasons, and due to recent scholarship, which has established that OVPP was the norm in Lutheran churches--for Telemann, Buxtehude, & Bach. This is especially true for the cantatas, and tellingly, Bach didn't write any of his cantatas for a double choir--out of hundreds, there is only a single cantata fragment for a double choir, & its authenticity is doubted.

I found that after I had acquired a taste for Milnes' Bach Cantata performances, it's been harder to return to the others. In my view, Milnes is the finest Bach conductor today.

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantata...44629399&sr=1-1&keywords=milnes+bach+montreal
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-LEpipha...44629399&sr=1-6&keywords=milnes+bach+montreal
https://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-Joh...44629399&sr=1-7&keywords=milnes+bach+montreal
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Can...&sr=1-2-catcorr&keywords=milnes+bach+montreal
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Can...&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=milnes+bach+montreal
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantata...44629399&sr=1-2&keywords=milnes+bach+montreal

https://www.amazon.com/Nouveaux-Bra...44630625&sr=1-5&keywords=milnes+bach+montreal


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## mduran

I came here to read opinions on the currently available complete cycles but signed up to add another endorsement of Milnes. I hadn't heard of him until fairly recently, but I'm hooked and am listening to his BWV 167 as I type. Outstanding!


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## Forsooth

Just here to keep the thread "alive" since it has been helpful to me. I just purchased the *"Bach: The Complete Cantatas"* set, conducted by Helmuth Rilling.


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## NLAdriaan

Well, let's indeed continue this thread

I own the full cycle by Koopman (managed to buy it brandnew and at half price 2 years ago:lol. I own a set on Berlin classics with Former GDR light HIP-pish cantatas from Leipzig with Hans Joachim Rotzsch conducting and singers like the great Arleen Auger and Peter Schreier. I also own separate cantatas from the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt cycle, from Suzuki and from Karl Richter.

Each has something of beauty in it, but Ton Koopman is my all time hero in Bach, be it in vocal, orchestral and organ music. I may not be objective, but Koopman simply offers to me exactly the right view, be it festive, be it in enough devotion and he adds sparkles when possible and just an incredible musicality. And so he does in his Cantatas cycle. 

You may have noticed that Gardiner is not there in my list. Correct, I frankly am almost allergic to his Bach recordings. Strange as it seems, I think he overdoes it all the time. I don't have any link with his Baroque approach. To me Gardiner offers Bach/Handel on steroids. If looking at the UK market, I am a fan of Trevor Pinnock, however he didn't really touch on Bach's cantatas, maybe because Gardiner already claimed the segment at Archiv/DG? 

Having said so, I am so glad with Koopman's recordings. The cantatas-box maybe expensive, but mind you, he did this mostly with his own money on his own label. I can recommend this box wholeheartedly. And you can also buy separate issues of this project.


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## Derek23

I bought some of the Leonhardt/Harnocourt set when it came out on LPs in the 1970s, but could not afford to buy every issue. I did buy the complete set when it first came out on CD about 15 years ago. I tried to work through all the cantatas but failed miserably. A few months ago I discovered two projects: allofbach.com and bachipedia.org who, between them, have put high quality video performances on the internet of about 150 cantatas. I have watched all of these now, and completed my trawl through the remainder with various CD performances. For me, about 60 or 70 are three star cantatas, and there are lots which are very good indeed. Seeing the performers in what are essentially live performances is the nearest one can get to a real live performance, and probably enables one to hear much that would be lost in a real live performance. Give them a try and see what you think.


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## vincentfernandes

I don't post here very often, but just wanted to give my tow cents.

My first cantata experience was Harnoncourt. Although I still have a soft spot for the sound of the CMW and his often unique interpretations, I found the choir incredibly messy. Lots of it sounded like they were merely presenting the first rough takes of everything they recorded.

Then I briefly got into Gardiner's set, but I found the use of harpsichord instead of organ for the continuo part rather distracting.

A week ago, I started with the Rilling set. Very lovely orchestra, but I could have known that I would not like the vibrato in the choir.

And today, I started with Suzuki. My goodness. I have no idea why I have read some negative feedback on this set here. I am absolutely blown away. I seriously briefly considered getting rid of all my non-HIP baroque music. I tried to give Rilling the benefit of the doubt as well, but once I had heard Suzuki, there was no turning back anymore. I am loving the dry singing and the emotional orchestra. What a transcendental experience.


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## Itullian

^^^^How about Koopman?
No countertenors! yay


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## Azol

(intruding here) Koopman is definitely one of the greats, I love his Mass in B minor but, honestly, countertenors put me off from digging deeper into his Cantatas cycle.


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## vincentfernandes

I have no interest in listening to Koopman now that Suzuki has clicked with me in a way I had never expected. He just made me really like vocal music.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Itullian said:


> ^^^^How about Koopman?
> No countertenors! yay


He doesn't use countertenors nearly as often as Suzuki but Kai Wessel does star in a few.



vincentfernandes said:


> I don't post here very often, but just wanted to give my tow cents.
> 
> My first cantata experience was Harnoncourt. Although I still have a soft spot for the sound of the CMW and his often unique interpretations, I found the choir incredibly messy. Lots of it sounded like they were merely presenting the first rough takes of everything they recorded.
> 
> Then I briefly got into Gardiner's set, but I found the use of harpsichord instead of organ for the continuo part rather distracting.
> 
> A week ago, I started with the Rilling set. Very lovely orchestra, but I could have known that I would not like the vibrato in the choir.
> 
> And today, I started with Suzuki. My goodness. I have no idea why I have read some negative feedback on this set here. I am absolutely blown away. I seriously briefly considered getting rid of all my non-HIP baroque music. I tried to give Rilling the benefit of the doubt as well, but once I had heard Suzuki, there was no turning back anymore. I am loving the dry singing and the emotional orchestra. What a transcendental experience.


Couldn't agree more about Rilling and Suzuki. I run really hot and cold on Gardiner; I've been through phases where I both couldn't stand and loved his recordings. His choir is one of the best in the world and he's got some decent soloists but all too often I find the interpretations cold and workmanlike.


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## vincentfernandes

Right, I just listened to Das Neue Regiment in BWV 71. I don't know where Suzuki got these singers, but I feel like angels are singing to me. This is not normal. This discovery feels so life-changing right now.


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## Handelian

I note Rilling is n offer very cheap atm. Any experience of it? Opinions?


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## Azol

Handelian said:


> I note Rilling is n offer very cheap atm. Any experience of it? Opinions?


Worth every cent if you're looking for modern instrument performances. Rilling also has impressive roster of singers, no countertenors afaik.


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## starthrower

If I didn't already have 35 discs of Cantatas I'd probably get the Rilling. Last time I checked Deep Discount was selling it for 89.50 with only a 4 dollar shipping charge. Presto is charging way too much to ship the the US.


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