# Can someone explain the Sibelius 7th symphony



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Is this supposed to be a happy, heroic or and introverted, lugubrious piece of music? I have several recordings and they sound like recordings of different music. Yet I've read people around here that say it's their favorite.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

It is supposed to be a symphony. Whatever Sibelius may have had in mind when he wrote (probably many, varied things over the course of composition), we are mostly not privy to them. As with any other non-programmatic pieces of music, what you hear in it is more a function of you than anything, and will probably be different today, tomorrow, etc.


----------



## Guest (Mar 5, 2019)

Well, what I hear rather reflects the ambiguity evident in your question. I wouldn't use the word 'happy' for any part of it, but there is something uplifting about the 'hymn theme' in the early movement. Later, there is a 'crisis' with a swirling, maelstrom of sound on strings and brass from which, eventually, we proceed step by rising step to a climax and resignation, rather than resolution.

Thanks to this website which offers a helpful analysis http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_07.htm

And also to BBC Radio 3's Building a Library which surveys some of the interpretations and prefers Vanska.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01wdkpq (for those who can get it)

I think it's fantastic.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Thanks for the link, it's helpful. But I thought Sibelius had throat surgery by the time he wrote this and had to quit drinking and smoking. 

Vanska is one of those I have. His interpretation is straightforward compared to Karajan's highly inflected, almost romantic, emotionally driven mono version from the 1950s.

Another thing I've learned is no two people think the same recording is best.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Try Thomas Beecham's version.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The original title was "Fantasia sinfonica no.1". Like all of the symphonies from #3 on, it's not about anything. It's pure music. If you want to read something into, that's your prerogative, but don't read anything more into it - like Sibelius said to Mahler, he's offering pure, cold water. It's a wonderful work, certainly, chock full of ideas, great tunes and lucid writing. And it's harder than heck to conduct - the numerous tempo changes have thrown more than one conductor who can't quite manage those tricky transitions. My classic go to is Koussevitsky. My modern preference is Ormandy on RCA - perfect.


----------



## Guest (Mar 5, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> The original title was "Fantasia sinfonica no.1". Like all of the symphonies from #3 on, it's not about anything. It's pure music. If you want to read something into, that's your prerogative, but don't read anything more into it - like Sibelius said to Mahler, he's offering pure, cold water. It's a wonderful work, certainly, chock full of ideas, great tunes and lucid writing. And it's harder than heck to conduct - the numerous tempo changes have thrown more than one conductor who can't quite manage those tricky transitions. My classic go to is Koussevitsky. My modern preference is Ormandy on RCA - perfect.


Well, the 5th is meant to convey something of the sight of swans that inspired it, so it's not entirely 'pure'. And the comment about cold water was said in reference to the 6th - I'm not sure he meant it as a general description for all his symphonies.


----------



## Dima (Oct 3, 2016)

larold said:


> Is this supposed to be a happy, heroic or and introverted, lugubrious piece of music? I have several recordings and they sound like recordings of different music. Yet I've read people around here that say it's their favorite.


As well as in Valse Triste for the drama "Death", in the 7 symphony Sibelius used Spanish dance as leitmotif of symphony (possibly as symbol of life) and in conclusion there is a quotation of Valse Triste (as the arrival of death itself).
This symphony of Sibelius, unfortunately, imho was written without the former inspiration, and this
work reminds me Shostakovich's viola sonata that was written in a hospital (Shostakovich's last work), without new material but with some quotations.
After this symphony Sibelius did not write anything significant, although unexpectedly even for himself he lived almost 91 years. It's not even a symphony, but a one-part composition for ~ 20 minutes, the composer himself originally called it
symphonic poem, but then he decided by this farewell work to complete the symphonic cycle.
Although Sibelius lived after writing 7 symphonies 20 years, but at that time he was about 60, he had recently suffered cancer and that was his thoughts at that time.
If you personally feel close with the Sibelius and his music, listen to this work and think about the composer who became national hero in his motherland and whose birthday is official holiday in Finland today. The 7th Symphony of Juhan Julius Christian Sibelius (his full name) in one of the best perfomances:


----------



## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Several years ago, a TC poster directed us to a Youtube channel of a bearded chap who analyzed a number of pieces including Sibelius 7th. I watch it and he was very knowledgeable and engaging. I'll try to find it.


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I listened to it this morning while going to work by train (backgound noise doesn't bother me much). I have done so many times in fact. Goosebumps everytime. It's nice to look outside in the meantime. With any luck there are misty fields and a nice sunrise to look at. I can't escape the notion that it expresses nature somehow. Sibelius 7, one of my favorite ways to start the day!


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Segerstam takes getting used to, with some interesting choices in tempo nuances, perhaps not as tight and precise as the Vanska recording, but overall he gets the greatest sound out of the piece.


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

The Sibelius Seventh... the drama, the beauty, the majestic play of nature communing with itself as something profoundly alive. There are no humans in this pristine landscape except as a privileged observer... It’s stirring and magnificent... far bigger in Spirit than its brevity.


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Larkenfield said:


> The Sibelius Seventh... the drama, the beauty, the majestic play of nature communing with itself as something profoundly alive. There are no humans in this pristine landscape except as a privileged observer... It's stirring and magnificent... far bigger in Spirit than its length.


Yup.
What Lark said.


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> The Sibelius Seventh... the drama, the beauty, the majestic play of nature communing with itself as something profoundly alive. There are no humans in this pristine landscape except as a privileged observer... It's stirring and magnificent... far bigger in Spirit than its brevity.


I like the way you have written your comment. I'm full of Sibelius CDs, I listen (almost) nothing of him and I can not comment the 7th. (The 5th, I listened it 10 days ago, was (for me always) something mediocre) I need training with Sibelius...


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

DeepR said:


> Segerstam takes getting used to, with some interesting choices in tempo nuances, perhaps not as tight and precise as the Vanska recording, but overall he gets the greatest sound out of the piece.


*Leif is a true GREAT!* Glorious conductor, decent composer, humble man with deep musical knowledge. I love him! (The 7th sounds good... Hypotonic somehow, but interesting.) Thanks!


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Vasks said:


> Several years ago, a TC poster directed us to a Youtube channel of a bearded chap who analyzed a number of pieces including Sibelius 7th. I watch it and he was very knowledgeable and engaging. I'll try to find it.


Was it this guy?


----------



## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

violadude said:


> Was it this guy?


YES!!!

Here's his Sibelius 7th


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Dimace said:


> *Leif is a true GREAT!* Glorious conductor, decent composer, humble man with deep musical knowledge. I love him! (The 7th sounds good... Hypotonic somehow, but interesting.) Thanks!


Wow. Just wow. Brought tears to my eyes! Gorgeous strings and brass, beautiful phrasing and excellent sound-an all-out performance that holds nothing back. Breathtaking.


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2019)

Segerstam with the DNSO or the HPO, I wonder - what are the differences?






Oh, and of course it's a great symphony - it's been quoted by The Beatles!



Dima said:


> It's not even a symphony,


In what way is it not a symphony?


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

My reaction to Segerstam's HPO performance that takes nothing away from his outstanding DNSO recording: Overall noticeably more powerful... raw... muscular... intense and forceful... more spirited and incisive... not quite as introspective or as nuanced, subtle or varied in phrasing and tempo, but still a tremendous performance with a gloriously ecstatic ending almost to the breaking point... for me, not quite as emotionally moving as his DNSO performance but still leaves an indelible impression... It also sounds more closely miked with a greater sense of presence... Hard to imagine better-recorded sound... I'm crazy about this brief but magnificent symphony... I hear it as the life-forces of Nature completely blissed out and in ecstasy.


----------



## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Thanks for the enthousiasm, I took Sibelius 7 off the shelve (yes, CD's), it's the Colin Davis version, LSO live from 2003. Somehow, Sibelius seventh was an orphan to me. It sure is a piece to listen to more than once. But great to discover something 'new' which was waiting there for years in my room


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

"The experience of a lifetime", to borrow the words from John Ogden's summation of Chopin's Ballade Op. 52, which is also how I feel when I listen to Sibelius 7.


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I can only echo the sentiments expressed for this symphony and the Segerstam recording.
It was my introduction to Sibelius and remains my favorite work.
It's probably my favorite orchestral piece of the 20th century along with Scriabin's pair of symphonic poems.



Dimace said:


> *Leif is a true GREAT!* Glorious conductor, decent composer, humble man with deep musical knowledge. I love him! (The 7th sounds good... Hypotonic somehow, but interesting.) Thanks!


And he looks like Santa!


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I appreciate your comments, thanks. For enthusiasts who have not heard Karajan do this I would say try to hear him, especially his earlier mono version from the 1950s. His stereo remake in on YouTube and it is good but does not surpass his earlier recording for its vigor, warmth, romance and other qualities. In particular he brings a Brucknerian breadth and dignity to the chorale second movement I haven't heard in other recordings as well as a vigorous humanity I almost never heard in his DG recordings. 

I am not normally a Karajan enthusiast but am beginning to see what others hear in his Sibelius. In its Sibelius overview in 2016 American Record Guide graded Karajan's 1955 mono recording the best Sibelius 7th. Writing in Fanfare, critic Richard Kaplan -- in his 2008 "Sibeliusaurus" review of every Sibelius symphony extant -- said Karajan's mono version of the 7th is "the prototype of the expansive approach" and graded it peer to his favorite, the Ormandy from 1976.

Having heard it and some other versions it is clearly different and better than others I know.


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> Wow. Just wow. Brought tears to my eyes! Gorgeous strings and brass, beautiful phrasing and excellent sound-an all-out performance that holds nothing back. Breathtaking.


It is strange. Because I'm not familiar with Sibelius, I like his music because of Leif. Leif reminds me Celibitache. Slow, well hold tempi, singing orchestra, all (and sometimes some extra) dramatical elements well exposed and intonated. Leif's wonder, with Galicia Sinfonica still has influence on my feelings and helps me to investigate other composers which are coming under his direction. (With Celi I listen also Mozart.)


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

DeepR said:


> I can only echo the sentiments expressed for this symphony and the Segerstam recording.
> It was my introduction to Sibelius and remains my favorite work.
> It's probably my favorite orchestral piece of the 20th century *along with Scriabin's pair of symphonic poems.
> *
> ...


Now, we are starting to make business, my friend! :tiphat: Scriabin is one of my favorite composers. I love him to death.


----------



## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Dimace said:


> I like the way you have written your comment. I'm full of Sibelius CDs, I listen (almost) nothing of him and I can not comment the 7th. (The 5th, I listened it 10 days ago, was (for me always) something mediocre) I need training with Sibelius...


I note with some interest that in different posts over the past few days you have been critical of two of my favourite composers (Sibelius and Martinu) and here you appear unimpressed by my favourite symphony (Sibelius' 5th)....this only reflects how varied our tastes and perceptions of music can be and again adds to the intrigue (and possibly the value of discussion through Talk Classical!

I do wonder however how you regard Schumann's 2nd and Television's 1977 album Marquee Moon?


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

larold said:


> Is this supposed to be a happy, heroic or and introverted, lugubrious piece of music? I have several recordings and they sound like recordings of different music. Yet I've read people around here that say it's their favorite.


Explain? No. But I think the most important thing in grasping how and why it holds together is to connect three big climactic points in the work where a trombone solo starts on D (usually a suspension, meaning a dissonant note held over from an earlier harmony) resolving down to C. In the video below these occur at 5:30, 10:45, and 17:08.* The first and third are majestic and stable culminating points following long build ups. By contrast, the one at 10:45 sounds amid rolling waves of strings in octaves, the most unstable and disturbing passage in the symphony. It is the progression from stability to the problematic middle section and then back to stability signaled by these trombone solos that provides the symphony's essential drama. Two further versions of the passage sum up the drama toward the end. These happen at 19:32 in the horns, and then at the very close of the work where the D to C resolution happens in multiple instruments. Overall, the "fable" is the oldest and simplest there is: An initial stable condition is destabilized and ultimately restored.






The other big thing to be aware of is that the symphony is strongly unified by repeated motives. Every one of these occurs in a slow (lugubrious?) version in the beginning. Later they are accelerated up to double and even quadruple speeds (in technical terms, diminution and double diminution).

Having the video to watch helps because you actually see the trombonist playing the crucial bits.

*In the Hansen revised score (1980) the passages are at 11 bars before D, 1 before L, and 3 after X respectively.


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

larold said:


> I appreciate your comments, thanks. For enthusiasts who have not heard Karajan do this I would say try to hear him, especially his earlier mono version from the 1950s. His stereo remake in on YouTube and it is good but does not surpass his earlier recording for its vigor, warmth, romance and other qualities. In particular he brings a Brucknerian breadth and dignity to the chorale second movement I haven't heard in other recordings as well as a vigorous humanity I almost never heard in his DG recordings.
> 
> I am not normally a Karajan enthusiast but am beginning to see what others hear in his Sibelius. In its Sibelius overview in 2016 American Record Guide graded Karajan's 1955 mono recording the best Sibelius 7th. Writing in Fanfare, critic Richard Kaplan -- in his 2008 "Sibeliusaurus" review of every Sibelius symphony extant -- said Karajan's mono version of the 7th is "the prototype of the expansive approach" and graded it peer to his favorite, the Ormandy from 1976.
> 
> Having heard it and some other versions it is clearly different and better than others I know.


I am listening to the Karajan/BPO 1968 recording of the 7th right now. It is astounding. The strings and brass resound like glacier sheets crashing into mountains, then slip beneath cold Arctic waves. The tympani is wonderfully miked. This Sibelius makes sense.

Also, Hans Zimmer was clearly inspired by the 2nd movement for his Interstellar score.


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

jim prideaux said:


> I note with some interest that in different posts over the past few days you have been critical of two of my favourite composers (Sibelius and Martinu) and here you appear unimpressed by my favourite symphony (Sibelius' 5th)....this only reflects how varied our tastes and perceptions of music can be and again adds to the intrigue (and possibly the value of discussion through Talk Classical!
> 
> I do wonder however how you regard Schumann's 2nd and Television's 1977 album Marquee Moon?


You are up to the point, my dear friend (and you remember very well) With Martinu I consider my self unlucky. I have two circles with his symphonies. Both are not good. I'm looking forward to buy a new one to justify his music. With Sibelius, I recently started with his music and this because of Leif. I'm not familiar with him to say a lot of thinks. For Schumann I can also say nothing. I don't remember (this moment) the symphony. (also like theme-melody…) I have no idea for the other recording(s). I'm very sorry. Thanks a lot for the comment and the question.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

larold said:


> Is this supposed to be a happy, heroic or and introverted, lugubrious piece of music? I have several recordings and they sound like recordings of different music. Yet I've read people around here that say it's their favorite.


This work remains my favourite composition in all music (of any genre including non-classical). Sibelius presents us with the ultimate retrospective on the heroic journey. Majestic and climactic, at times delicate and playful - the sheer variety of constantly changing moods avoids any sense of fatigue or overstatement.

Notable are the seamless transitions from one 'section' to another - utterly breathtaking in my view. So too, the heartfelt degree of earnestness he portrays (for example the hymn-like string passage near the beginning). Also, the intensity of the climaxes - the final one is unparalleled. It's worth noting that Sibelius is recapitulating here material already heard nearer the beginning of the piece. I only recently realised that the passage heard in this (high strings) section of the climax is essentially the same as the passage of the exposition. It's so utterly transformed that it conceals it's origins.

That the work is in some sense programmatic (something that Sibelius denied) is perhaps evident in the onomatopoeic moaning and howling wind section near the middle. The brass that builds above these moving half-step strings (rising and increasing the intensity) is so beautifully dramatic; it seemingly speaks of the ineffable.

The work shows great originality - I cannot think of one phrase that reminds me of another piece.
Every note seems justified. Nothing is superfluous. That Sibelius managed to wrap all the material up in a single movement is a supreme achievement.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

jim prideaux said:


> Television's 1977 album Marquee Moon?


So good 

As for Sibelius' 7th, I've only heard Vanska/Minnesota, and only once. I liked it, but unfortunately I wouldn't be able to tell anyone what it's "about".

So far, I like what I've heard of Sibelius' tone poems more than any of the symphonies: Swan of Tuonela, Finlandia, the Karelia suite. Karajan does a good job with them I'd say.


----------

