# Mozart: Why do people rate the String Quintets above Quartets 14-19?



## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

I find Mozart's 'Haydn' Quartets (Nos. 14-19) to contain the more elegant melodies and to be more sensual, generally. 

Which do you prefer and why?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

They are among the supreme works of SQ generally. There is natural melody, ingenious development yet never overwrought unlike many other SQ that come in the 19th century to current day. I like them all equally.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

ArtMusic said:


> They are among the supreme works of SQ generally. There is natural melody, ingenious development yet never overwrought unlike many other SQ that come in the 19th century to current day. I like them all equally.


The Quartets, Quintets or both?

Any idea about why the Quintets seems to be esteemed while the Quartets often don't get mentioned?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Both are rated highly, but the string quintets are uniquely special in my view, it doesn't mean everyone has to prefer them. Beethoven's symphonies are talked about more than his piano trios, it doesn't mean the latter are weak works. Personally, I prefer the piano trios.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

tdc said:


> Both are rated highly, but the string quintets are uniquely special in my view, it doesn't mean everyone has to prefer them. Beethoven's symphonies are talked about more than his piano trios, it doesn't mean the latter are weak works. Personally, I prefer the piano trios.


Anything about the quintets, in particular, that captures you?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

One thing about the string quintets I like is they maintain a kind of intimate playfulness, while simultaneously achieving a rich texture. I associate them with more color in sonority, almost as though they are orchestral works.

Mozart excelled at rich inner part writing, his music displays a complexity in this area that during his time had largely disappeared from music since Bach. The string quintets allow Mozart to do more with building up textures in this way. They are considered some of Mozart's most ambitious works, particularly the k515 and k516 which according to Rosen are both "grander in scope than anything that Haydn had conceived even for orchestra". He considers k515 arguably Mozart's most daring work. The exposition of k515 is longer than the exposition of Beethoven's _Eroica_ symphony.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Another reason suggested as to why the quintets turned out so well is that they feature two violas, which apparently was Mozart's favorite string instrument, which Mozart himself played.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

tdc said:


> The exposition of k515 is longer than the exposition of Beethoven's _Eroica_ symphony.


Mozart often seems to try to conform to the proportion 38%:62% in the sonata form. Take for example the first two movements of his first piano sonata K.279, which adhere to the golden ratio of 0.618. (The first movement consists of exactly 100 bars, with the exposition consisting of 38 bars. The second movement consists of 74 bars, with the exposition 28). In K.515, the intensely chromatic development section and the "false recapitulation" (or secondary development) both sound "edgy", and the extensive coda section also seems quite elaborate. Likewise, I also find the emphasis on minor seconds in the development of K.516/i interesting, (and also the asymmetrical-phrased conclusion in the coda, which Rob Kapilow explained in his interview).



hammeredklavier said:


> I think that this moment, in the G minor quintet finale, for example-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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RogerWaters said:


> I'm listening to the g minor quintet right now, and *it's amazing how pleasant it is*! Comparing this to a Beethoven minor-key quartet is like comparing a Watteau painting with a David Casper Frederick


Btw, I still find this comment funny (I respect the opinion though):


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

The harmonies of Mozart's first string quintet, K.174, are pretty striking for a work of a 17-year old: 



(Even more than Mendelssohn's octet, for example; he sort of "cheated" by revising his, in 1832)


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I find a number of the string quartets very hundrum but absolutely love the Viola Quintets for the luscious harmonies, quite memorable melodies and seamless flow. There's some quartets I like (D major Divertmento, for instance), but they just don't click with me, like the "Dissonance" one for instance everyone loves and I'm certain with good reason but I don't hear what they're hearing.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

I enjoy the quintets, but I must say that my favourite Mozart work in this vein is the Dissonance Quartet. It has a directness and unsentimental nature that I find easy to engage with.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I fluctuate between preferring one to the other but the quintets get more play, in general, so I guess I'd say I prefer them very slightly. I agree with HP about the Dissonance quartet, though.


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## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

ArtMusic said:


> They are among the supreme works of SQ generally. There is natural melody, ingenious development yet never overwrought unlike many other SQ that come in the 19th century to current day. I like them all equally.


:lol: I really enjoy SQs that are overwrought that come in the 19th century to current day! :lol:


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## Caryatid (Mar 28, 2020)

I don't think the higher regard in which the quintets are held is surprising at all. They are simply larger and more ambitious than the quartets. 

The opening movements of K. 515 and K. 516 have no parallel really anywhere else in Mozart, except maybe Symphony 40.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Caryatid said:


> The opening movements of K. 515 and K. 516 have no parallel really anywhere else in Mozart, except maybe Symphony 40.


I suspect that if Mozart hadn't written K515 nd K516, we wouldn't be having this discussion. IMO, those two works stand head-and-shoulders above the other quintets and any of the quartets.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> I suspect that if Mozart hadn't written K515 nd K516, we wouldn't be having this discussion. IMO, those two works stand head-and-shoulders above the other quintets and any of the quartets.


Yes but you know, k499 is very good.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Yes but you know, k499 is very good.


I don't think these are shabby either:

"Mozart connoisseurs and admirers know of course about what is bizarre in the finale of his very last string quartet, K. 590. In its development the harshness of the tone language is particularly unparalleled in the Mozart oeuvre. But the unsettling already starts shortly before the end of the first section: The otherwise so airily sparkling sixteenth notes stall all of a sudden in an almost stranded-like repetitive three-note kink. It is just this spot that Mozart vehemently corrected in his manuscript. The investigation of this correction offers us at hand an analytical key to the understanding of this absolutely special movement.
This spluttering three-note figure, in itself circular, seized up, as it were, against the meter,








_Mm. 122-125, vln 1_​dominates the whole development after its first occurrence and is, of course, heard once again at the end of the movement. Mozart later scrupulously corrected it wherever and in whichever part it appears as well. And indeed, to be specific, its articulation. If in the first draft he had always put sixteenths together in a large legato phrase, then he later corrected the legato (but did not cross it out or erase it in the autograph) by placing under the respective notes the familiar two-note grouping of slurs and staccatos:








_Autograph, mm. 122-125, vln 1_​To date I have never encountered any other autograph where Mozart made such a striking, systematic change in the articulation. Notes, yes, dynamics, yes, but articulation over such a long stretch? ..."
<The charm of the unsettling. A special autograph correction of Mozart's in the finale of the F-major string quartet K. 590>





"the fact remains that the "Great Fugue" is "a controlled violence without parallel in music before the twentieth century and anticipated only by Mozart in the C minor fugue for two pianos (K.426)"
< Opera's Second Death / Slavoj Žižek, Mladen Dolar / P.128 >
"Mozart later arranged this fugue for strings as well, adding the introductory Adagio, K. 546. The traditional Baroque idiom that is developed in this fugue for two pianos lays great stress on dissonant chromatic semitones and appoggiaturas. The intensity of the fugal writing is startling, foreshadowing the fugal textures in some of Beethoven's later works, such as the first movement of the Piano Sonata in C Minor, op.111, which exploits a variant of the same idiom. Beethoven was so taken by this piece, in fact, that he copied out the entire fugue in score."
< Mozart's Piano Music / William Kinderman / P.46 >


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

^^^^ Richard Atkinson always has high quality content. What a weird movement. I didn't quite get the feeling of disturbing or unsettling from the development section theme like the cited passage above the video describes, but I did feel a lot of playful sarcasm and fun messing around creating some really wild harmonies. I find it odd how the orange theme in the exposition (3:08) doesn't get any treatment in the development section, because at least that 3-note theme is derived from the 1st theme so while it is cooky and weird, it's not totally coming out of nowhere.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Caryatid said:


> I don't think the higher regard in which the quintets are held is surprising at all. They are simply larger and more ambitious than the quartets.
> 
> The opening movements of K. 515 and K. 516 have no parallel really anywhere else in Mozart, except maybe Symphony 40.


In what respect?


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

wkasimer said:


> I suspect that if Mozart hadn't written K515 nd K516, we wouldn't be having this discussion. IMO, those two works stand head-and-shoulders above the other quintets and any of the quartets.


For formal musical reasons or because of how they sound?

I'm not enough of a theory nerd to value a piece _simply_ because of it's formal features.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

RogerWaters said:


> For formal musical reasons or because of how they sound?
> I'm not enough of a theory nerd to value a piece _simply_ because of it's formal features.


I also value music based on how it sounds. But if I simply used words like "spicy" to describe this section: 



 , would you have sympathized with my view? 
So I'm just trying to be "objective" as much as I can in describing stuff.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> I don't think these are shabby either:
> 
> "Mozart connoisseurs and admirers know of course about what is bizarre in the finale of his very last string quartet, K. 590. In its development the harshness of the tone language is particularly unparalleled in the Mozart oeuvre. But the unsettling already starts shortly before the end of the first section: The otherwise so airily sparkling sixteenth notes stall all of a sudden in an almost stranded-like repetitive three-note kink. It is just this spot that Mozart vehemently corrected in his manuscript. The investigation of this correction offers us at hand an analytical key to the understanding of this absolutely special movement.
> This spluttering three-note figure, in itself circular, seized up, as it were, against the meter,
> ...


Yes, I like 590 very much, it's just that I think the Hoffmeister has a special place, it has some of the complexity of the Mozart/Haydn quartets and some of the lyricism of the Prussian quartets.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> I don't think these are shabby either:
> 
> "Mozart connoisseurs and admirers know of course about what is bizarre in the finale of his very last string quartet, K. 590. In its development the harshness of the tone language is particularly unparalleled in the Mozart oeuvre. But the unsettling already starts shortly before the end of the first section: The otherwise so airily sparkling sixteenth notes stall all of a sudden in an almost stranded-like repetitive three-note kink. It is just this spot that Mozart vehemently corrected in his manuscript. The investigation of this correction offers us at hand an analytical key to the understanding of this absolutely special movement.
> This spluttering three-note figure, in itself circular, seized up, as it were, against the meter,
> ...


Just listening to 590 now what struck me more than before were unexpected dissonances in the second movement. I love Mozart's variations. Always nice to be reminded of this old friend, thanks.

Mozart's final movements are often special I think. To be honest it's years and years since I listened to his music carefully but I remember some extraordinary final movements in the piano concertos. Sudden unexpected passages out of the blue.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I find it odd how the orange theme in the exposition (3:08) doesn't get any treatment in the development section, because at least that 3-note theme is derived from the 1st theme so while it is cooky and weird, it's not totally coming out of nowhere.


I've always thought that this particular section in the development of K.590/iv is in terms of rhythm - [ 2:30 ~ 2:40 ] - is "matched" by this section in the development of K.590/i - [ 5:20~5:30 ].
While there's no direct thematic linking, I think they're composed in the same vein "conceptually". For instance, there's no direct thematic linking between the outer movements of quintet K.515, (unlike K.575/i & K.575/iv ["D-F♯-A-G-E"], or K.421/i~iv ["F-A-C-C-C-C"]) but I don't think you can substitute its final movement with that of another quintet by him and pretend it can work (as a valid final movement). But K.590 or K.464 just isn't interesting as K.515 in this regard, I think.

*K.515*

"The idea used in the first movement of an advancing momentum brought to a sudden
stop is again explored." < Elizabeth Dalton, 2016 >
0:20 , 7:50 , 27:00 , 30:00








part-writing and suspensions involving slurred half-notes and chromatic eighth-note figures:
4:15 , 28:06








ascending chromatic figures accompanied by descending figures composed of longer note values:
4:44 , 26:20









*K.464*

I. Allegro has "Rhythm 1" as its principal rhythmic motif: [ dotted 1/4 note - 1/8 note - 1/8 note - 1/8 note ]
View attachment 131092

II. Menuetto has "Rhythm 2" as its principal rhythmic motif: [ 1/2 note - 1/4 note - 1/4 note - 1/4 note ]
View attachment 131079

IV. Allegro ma non troppo has both.
View attachment 131080


+
II. Menuetto
View attachment 131131

IV. Allegro ma non troppo
View attachment 131132


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> I suspect that if Mozart hadn't written K515 nd K516, we wouldn't be having this discussion. IMO, those two works stand head-and-shoulders above the other quintets and any of the quartets.


Yes, but the part of Caryatid's post you didn't quote is the key, imo. The quintets, in particular the C major and G minor, are for the most part larger and more ambitious (in scope) than the quartets. That doesn't mean the six quartets dedicated to Haydn aren't equally great works. Or the Prussian quartets. Or for that matter, the divertimento for string trio. Or the clarinet quintet. I know we love rankings here at TC, but Mozart in his late chamber music was able to exploit the potential of different instrument combinations in different, but all still brilliantly effective, ways. I'll admit the quintets probably are my overall favorites due to the amazing expressive range Mozart shows. Just one example is the contrast between the last movement of the G minor quintet and everything that came before it. Beethoven was able to do something similar in his late string quartets.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I've always thought that this particular section in the development of K.590/iv is in terms of rhythm - [ 2:30 ~ 2:40 ] - is "matched" by this section in the development of K.590/i - [ 5:20~5:30 ].
> While there's no direct thematic linking, I think they're composed in the same vein "conceptually". For instance, there's no direct thematic linking between the outer movements of quintet K.515, (unlike K.575/i & K.575/iv ["D-F♯-A-G-E"], or K.421/i~iv ["F-A-C-C-C-C"]) but I don't think you can substitute its final movement with that of another quintet by him and pretend it can work (as a valid final movement). But K.590 or K.464 just isn't interesting as K.515 in this regard, I think.


I can hear the connection, the imitative counterpoint of both passages stand out. That's a good observation, while some connections between figures and motifs may not be overt, there's subtle linking between them that happens within or across movements. I think that's something other top-tier composers have the ability to do as well, not only to simply put an idea or figure on the back burner and reintroduce/revisit it later, but also do it in a logical way so that the listener can make that connection as well. An idea doesn't necessarily always need immediate attention and are better left saved for later, or just functioning in their own respective role without requiring further development.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

HenryPenfold said:


> I enjoy the quintets, but I must say that my favourite Mozart work in this vein is the Dissonance Quartet. It has a directness and unsentimental nature that I find easy to engage with.


I decided to give the "Dissonance" Quartet another listen in light of your post. The opening movement is one of the best things I've heard in a while, a really brilliant synthesis of colors and musical ideas. I think the adagio that follows it is what colored by opinions about it previously, I used to think it dragged on way too long at too leisurely of a pace and sounded borderline elevator music (which a lot of Mozart does to me), but now I'm picking up on a lot of delicate subtleties brought out by that very same pacing.

EDIT: I noticed this interesting thematic connection between the 3rd and 4th movements:

23:46 & 29:38


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I decided to give the "Dissonance" Quartet another listen in light of your post.
> EDIT: I noticed this interesting thematic connection between the 3rd and 4th movements:
> 23:46 & 29:38


I personally don't hear much "connection" between those. There's a lot of devices Classical-era composers re-use across their works; my criteria for determining whether they're merely "cliché" or "something special as inter-movemental elements" also concern the way they work in the context of their oeuvre in general. For example, there aren't many other keyboard works of Mozart that share this aspect of K.475 & K.457, so it strikes me as special.

I think K.465 is more remarkable for this "conceptual" element, which is shared by its 1st and 2nd movements (although despite Parker's claims, I don't find this element in the 3rd and 4th movements):
"The second moment is an Andante cantabile in F major, and starts in much simpler vein: with a clear melody in the first violin. But almost immediately, in the second phrase, you'll hear again that winding chromaticism in the inner parts, and also those tell-tale repeated notes in the cello. Soon after that, the moment become obsessively concerned with a small motive that is first passed from violin to cello, and then to the inner parts; and then, *again, you will hear the characteristic build up of instruments, starting (as the slow introduction did) with the cello and moving upwards.* In other words, it soon becomes clear that the slow introduction to this 'dissonance' quartet has actually been a kind a mine from which material for the rest of the movements are to be taken." 
< Roger Parker / Mozart Quartet in C major, K465 (Dissonance) /
View attachment mozart-quartet-in-c-major-k465-dissonance.pdf
>

The only other string quartets of Mozart with slow movements that match (or come close to matching) the chromatic intensity of the slow movement of K.465 to me are those of K.428 and K.499, but even they don't seem to share the K.465 quartet's conceptual element of "build up of instruments, starting with the cello and moving upwards" with repeated-note figures.

K.465: I. Adagio - Allegro [ 0:00 ] 
K.465: II. Andante Cantabile [ 5:17 , 6:00 ]
I also think that the chromaticism of the 2nd movement is just as interesting as the 1st, but it's overlooked by many people who're only interested in the 1st.
To me, in Mozart's string quartets, "inter-movemental elements" that are "thematic" rather than "conceptual" are K.575/i & K.575/iv ["D-F♯-A-G-E"] and,


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

The Great Courses has a MARVELOUS 16 lecture course on the Chamber Music of Mozart. Among other things, it does a detailed analysis of all six of Mozart's "Haydn" Quartets and the String Quintets. Really great course...and no test at the end. 

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Course...ber+Music+of+Mozart+DVD&qid=1613945634&sr=8-8


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> I think K.465 is more remarkable for this "conceptual" element, which is shared by its 1st and 2nd movements


Btw, K.499 is another quartet where I consider there is a "conceptual element" (rather than a thematic resemblance) across it, -patterns of phrases consisting of "[steps or repeated notes] - [quick up&down leaps] - [steps or repeated notes] - [quick up&down leaps] - [steps or repeated notes] - ... ", forming the shape of "fluctuating pulses". To my knowledge, the only other quartet movement of Mozart containing an expression similar to this is K.464/iv, but again, it's not quite the same, as the expression alternates between voices rather quickly, and K.464 has a "concept" of its own (as I described in [post#24]). But I think K.515 is more interesting than this as well. 
I don't think K.590/iv counts cause, unlike those of K.499, the phrase isn't "mostly based on one note" (E in the case of K.499/i and K.499/iv, and its subdominant, A in the case of K.499/iii), but rather, "keeps going down chromatically", and there are no up-and-down leaps.








K.499/i [2:24]








K.499/iii [12:17]








K.499/iv [20:40]


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

I esteem both sets of works equally. Masterpiece after masterpiece. I simply adore the mature string quartets of Mozart, beyond just the Haydn six. I think the Hoffmeister quartet, for example, is sheer genius— and so are the last three.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Littlephrase said:


> I esteem both sets of works equally. Masterpiece after masterpiece. I simply adore the mature string quartets of Mozart, beyond just the Haydn six. I think the Hoffmeister quartet, for example, is sheer genius- and so are the last three.


I find them to be a bit less interesting, and I put that down to their having been written for some aristocrat cellist?


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