# New complexity



## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

When I sometimes look at the score to Brian Ferneyhough's "Kurtze Schatten II" for guitar, I get perplexed by the extremely complex rhythms, the quartertones in the scordatura, and the outburst of 32nd notes and dissonances...THIS IS THE HARDEST GUITARPIECE IN THE UNIVERSE. Feel free to share similar pieces and your view on the topic. It has to be new and complex


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

As new as Ferneyhough, maybe not all that complex, but anyway better:


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Magnum Miserium said:


> As new as Ferneyhough, maybe not all that complex, but anyway better:


Quite interesting piece indeed! Thank you
All the best
Artur Cimirro


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## MonagFam (Nov 17, 2015)

I want to get into the first piece, but I just can't. Maybe it is the audio quality in my end...The other piece linked I could get a little more out of. I could hear tones resonating and picking up different sounds.

Such is my relationship with some modern works. Some I get, but a lot I want to get and struggle.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MonagFam said:


> I want to get into the first piece, but I just can't. Maybe it is the audio quality in my end...The other piece linked I could get a little more out of. I could hear tones resonating and picking up different sounds.
> 
> Such is my relationship with some modem works. Some I get, but a lot I want to get and struggle.


I really didn't care for the guitar piece in the OP.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

MonagFam said:


> I want to get into the first piece, but I just can't. Maybe it is the audio quality in my end...The other piece linked I could get a little more out of. I could hear tones resonating and picking up different sounds.
> 
> Such is my relationship with some modem works. Some I get, but a lot I want to get and struggle.


Agree on the sound quality of the first piece, sound too muddled, but still can get a vague idea of it. Don't worry too about getting it MonagFam, there is nothing to get. It is all in the experience of the piece.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Here is one by Ginastera. Just found it as a side link along Magnum Miserium's link on youtube. I thought it was pretty mesmerizing both slower and faster parts.


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## MonagFam (Nov 17, 2015)

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is one by Ginastera. Just found it as a side link along Magnum Miserium's link on youtube. I thought it was pretty mesmerizing both slower and faster parts.


I like this piece. It's very dynamic as well, and I'm not sure if there is a part of the guitar or a technique of playing he didn't employ.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

MonagFam said:


> I like this piece. It's very dynamic as well, and I'm not sure if there is a part of the guitar or a technique of playing he didn't employ.


It's really unfair when i think of it how little a professional classical musician makes compared to in popular music. Any of these guys in this thread can blow Pete Townshend, Jimmy Page, Eddie van Halen, etc. away, but may need another day time job to make their living. Not even getting into guys like in One Direction. Anyway, that's another topic.


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## MonagFam (Nov 17, 2015)

Phil loves classical said:


> It's really unfair when i think of it how little a professional classical musician makes compared to in popular music. Any of these guys in this thread can blow Pete Townshend, Jimmy Page, Eddie van Halen, etc. away, but may need another day time job to make their living. Not even getting into guys like in One Direction. Anyway, that's another topic.


I am a fan of the rock/metal guitar, to be fair, but you are right. Without "Classical" guitar, Eugene wouldn't have won the guitar battle in Crossroads. (It wasn't a true classical piece, but made to sound like one and written / performed by Steve Vai..so I guess he beat himself!)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> When I sometimes look at the score to Brian Ferneyhough's "Kurtze Schatten II" for guitar, I get perplexed by the extremely complex rhythms, the quartertones in the scordatura, and the outburst of 32nd notes and dissonances...THIS IS THE HARDEST GUITARPIECE IN THE UNIVERSE. Feel free to share similar pieces and your view on the topic. It has to be new and complex


I wonder why he wrote such difficult music to play. And I wonder why it's called broken shadows.

Ferneyhough wrote a book you know, he's got ideas.

His more recent music is less complex and more the expressive. I very much like his orchestral and vocal music, but if you're into guitar have a listen to the scene called Les Froisements d'ailes de Gabriel in his opera Shadowtime. Shadows and reflections are a big deal for Ferneyhough, as is alchemy.

For a different approach to complexity check Michael Finnissy's English County Dances and Verdi Transcriptions.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Maybe new complexity is history now? I believe other composers also spent time making very complex music, for so to mellow out. F.ex. Penderecki. The fantastic wikipedia says new complexity is a term first mentioned in the 80's. Ginastera, mentioned above, belongs to "neoexpressionism" according to himself and was written in 1976. It's pretty catchy in the finale, especially for a parttime metalhead like me and is among the greatest masterpieces of new guitar music. The Ferneyhough piece is from 1989. I don't want to stick to guitarpieces. Finnissy sounds promising. So keep 'em coming! Has to be very new and has to be very complex!


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## Ziggabea (Apr 5, 2017)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> When I sometimes look at the score to Brian Ferneyhough's "Kurtze Schatten II" for guitar, I get perplexed by the extremely complex rhythms, the quartertones in the scordatura, and the outburst of 32nd notes and dissonances...THIS IS THE HARDEST GUITARPIECE IN THE UNIVERSE. Feel free to share similar pieces and your view on the topic. It has to be new and complex


I love that piece, his contrapuntal writing is astounding!


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Bump! I have a pretty good overview of new music for guitar. Who are the champions besides Ferneyhough anf Finnissy? I haven't heard too much of this music. Is there a core repertory or are the pieces given it's premiere for then to fall into obscurity? "Kurtze Schatten II" has become a classic I believe.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Not core, it doesn't work like that any more, but there are pieces by Ferneyhough which are paradigms of the style, I'd argue that the 6th quartet is one of them, and is his major masterpiece so far, but also Time and Motion Studies, the Transcendental Etudes, Transit and Terrain. Another composer to think about is James Dillon. And I've heard people say that some of Richard Barrett's music is in the style, but I haven't explored what he does.

Listen to the Ferneyhough quartets from Arditti -- they're fabulous. Best quartet cycle since Beethoven.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Phil loves classical said:


> It's really unfair when i think of it how little a professional classical musician makes compared to in popular music. Any of these guys in this thread can blow Pete Townshend, Jimmy Page, Eddie van Halen, etc. away [...]


Ok, but, like, most pianists and conductors "blow away" Stravinsky in the same sense, but his records are still often better than theirs.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

The name of this genre puts me off. Makes it seem like complexity is a goal in itself. Is it?


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Yes. Welcome to the far side


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Ok, but, like, most pianists and conductors "blow away" Stravinsky in the same sense, but his records are still often better than theirs.


Pete Townshend and the like are not quite Stravinsky.


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

I find the music to be awfully inhuman, unemotional, and ugly for the sake of. The nicest thing I could say about what I have heard of the New Complexity school is "Well, that sounds kind of cool."

As for this piece, he might as well be muddling around on the guitar, skilfully. Is it part of the experience for the performer to be barefoot?


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Phil loves classical said:


> Pete Townshend and the like are not quite Stravinsky.


No but the principle is the same. There's more to playing than technique.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

dzc4627 said:


> I find the music to be awfully inhuman, unemotional, and ugly for the sake of. The nicest thing I could say about what I have heard of the New Complexity school is "Well, that sounds kind of cool."


I go with "Not bad for English composers."


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

Magnum Miserium said:


> I go with "Not bad for English composers."


Wow! What a jab. Good one, I'd tend to agree... Hey, Holst's The Planets is quite alright!


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Not core, it doesn't work like that any more, but there are pieces by Ferneyhough which are paradigms of the style, I'd argue that the 6th quartet is one of them, and is his major masterpiece so far, but also Time and Motion Studies, the Transcendental Etudes, Transit and Terrain. Another composer to think about is James Dillon. And I've heard people say that some of Richard Barrett's music is in the style, but I haven't explored what he does.
> 
> Listen to the Ferneyhough quartets from Arditti -- they're fabulous. Best quartet cycle since Beethoven.


I've enjoyed listening to Dillon's "Book of Elements" from time to time. It made my hackles rise at moments, but I generally liked it: slow-moving and lots of variety.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Magnum Miserium said:


> No but the principle is the same. There's more to playing than technique.


True. In that case I say Robert Johnson was king of guitar music.


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