# The Greatest Composer for the Human voice - Your vote



## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

We talk so much instrumental music here in TC, that it is fitting that we have this type of thread ..

I'm planning to create a poll, who TC thinks as the greatest composer who created music for the voice.. And I'm seeking help to my fellow TC members.. 

In your post, nominate two composers who you think as the greatest composer of vocal music. Lieder, opera arias, cantatas, choral music, are included. Please give a reason why do you think that particular composer strikes you as the greatest..  (Btw, Herr Beethoven is excluded?)

If we have, sufficient nominations, the poll will start tomorrow..

Advance thank you, for the participants...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Gustav Mahler
Franz Schubert


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

I'm going to start
*
1. Franz Schubert (Lieder)*

- Arguably, the greatest songwriter who ever lived, Schubert's output of 635 Lieder (art song), masses and choral music were phenomenal, considering that he only live at the age of 31.

Schubert's contribution to the development of Lieder cannot be denied. In 1814, he created the genre of Lied when he penned Gretchen am Spinnrade at age 17, and he reached the colossal of his genius when he have written Winterreise ( the pinnacle of the art of art song). Schubert's inexhaustable gift for melody serves him well by setting beautiful songs with the equal participation of voice and piano. Though, not as popular as his songs, Schubert's masses, esp. in E-flat were considerable achievement of 19th century liturgical music.

Notable works..

Lieder

Gretchen am Spinnrade, Erlkönig, Der Wanderer, Nacht ünd Traume ( a personal favorite), Die Schöne Mullerin, Winterreise, Standchen and Der Doppelganger.

*2. Johann Sebastian Bach (choral music, cantatas)*

- The greatest composer of them all, Bach's supreme gift of creating beautiful vocal music is unsurpassed in Baroque era.. Bach is most-known for his masterpiece, Mass in B Minor, a setting of Mass, considered as one of the greatest achievements of Western art music. He also composed 200 cantatas which remained popular today.

Notable works:

Any of the 200 cantatas, Mass in B minor, St. Matthew's Passion

Bonus:

Handel - for writting the most popular choral work, Messiah

Wagner - for Tannhauser

Mahler - for his works for Lieder with Orchestra


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I think "greatest" is impossible here. Any of the great opera composers are default specialists when it comes to writing for the voice. Possibly it could be even more demanding than composing Church music for choirs and lieder, because there's a dramatic element involved.

Oh - and Bob Dylan. How he does it, I'll never know, but it works! :tiphat:


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Well, vocal music (although mainly opera) is discussed at length in the opera forum (although as I think of it, we just about only discuss opera there. Never mind).

Are we supposed to list two composers of vocal music, or two composers in each genre you have listed? To be safe, I'll do both. And then some.

Lieder
When talking about lieder, you simply cannot get away from Schubert, and so I'll list him.
Further, there's Grieg, and although it might be a national bias, his songs are really excellent, as are the texts he set.
Also, I'll include Mahler, as his songs from Das Knaben Wunderhorn are just amazing.

Opera
One of my absolute favourite opera composers is Händel, because of the way he writes for the voice. His melodies are so elegantly set to text, and the ornaments are to die for.
Mozart, because of how he managed to set the German and Italian languages to music.
Wagner is another personal favourite because of how he manages to combine glorious melodies with superb orchestration.

Cantatas
I'm not that very well versed in the field of cantatas, but I will nominate Vivaldi as his secular contralto cantatas are to die for.
EDIT: And Bach. Johann Sebastian, that is. How on earth could I have forgotten him?

Choral music
Again, Grieg is really one of my favourite composers here. I don't think it's performed much outside of Norway, but it is really excellent stuff.
I also love Mendelssohn's songs for chorus.



Overall, I think my two favourite composers for vocal music are Händel and Grieg.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Any of you who thinks that Beethoven's main weakness is writing vocal music?

I mean, Fidelio is decent but Mozart' operas, imo, is hundred times better. Beethoven abandoned setting Erlkönig for music, but Schubert wrote it in one sitting. Missa Solemnis, is a gem, though..


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

@Kieran

Bob Dylan is a god! 

@Aksel

Sir, you have to list only two composers.. But you have listed, Grieg and Handel, as your favorite, it's ok.  I'm not that enthuasiastic to Grieg's vocal music, probably he would grow on me.. Handel is really great.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

peeyaj said:


> @Aksel
> 
> Sir, you have to list only two composers.. But you have listed, Grieg and Handel, as your favorite, it's ok.  I'm not that enthuasiastic to Grieg's vocal music, probably he would grow on me.. Handel is really great.


I figured that if I was going to do it, I was going to do it properly 
And then it snowballed from there.

But Grieg's vocal music is wonderful, especially the poems by Bjørnson and Garborg he set.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

peeyaj said:


> @Kieran
> 
> Bob Dylan is a god!


Yeah, not even Mozart could write for Bob and make his voice sound beautiful, but Bob does it so well he can't even remember how! :trp:

My reply would be:

Mozart - opera
Bach - Church
Schubert - song


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Some of the very best (in no particular order except alphabetical):

Bach
Britten
Caldara
Hasse
Mahler
Mozart
Schubert
Strauss (R)
Vivaldi


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Kieran said:


> Mozart - opera
> Bach - Church
> Schubert - song


I think this pretty much sums things up.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Benjamin Britten is probably my favourite 'all-rounder' when it comes to writing for the voice. Folksong arrangements, cabaret songs, song cycles, choral works (both sacred and secular), opera - he wrote with distinction for them all.

I'd go for Berlioz next - from the song cycle Les nuits d'ete through to the real blockbusters like Grande messe des morts and Les troyens his major vocal works are for me the apotheosis of Romanticism.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

So many great composers for the voice its hard for me to pick 2, somehow I'd feel like Im snubbing too many other greats. I cant honestly say who I like best between Mozart, Vivaldi, Handel, Schubert, Wagner or Britten etc. 

The only one I could say I'd for sure nominate is J.S. Bach. (Do I really need to list reasons?)


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

I'm not really sure what constitutes "great" vocal writing. My singer friends and opera aficionado friends would probably have very different opinions than me. 

So I'll nominate Mahler and Britten, because while they may not be the composers with the most advanced understandings of the human voice, they are possibly my favorite composers who wrote for voice, and much of their vocal music is absolutely sublime. 

A very subjective decision. I do not challenge the greatness of Bach, Mozart, and Schubert, but you need more poll options than those, right?


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Very good choices, all in all.. But the two names who would be definitely in the poll: * Bach and Schubert*. We need more..


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

@Meaghan

Correct..  Because you've listed Mahler and Britten, together with Art Rock and Elgars ghost, * Mahler and Britten* are in!.. 

Human voice, it may be a song, an opera aria, a choral piece or a cantata, the human voice is a wonderful thing.

I wish there will be more people who will nominate pre-1700's composers.. Gregorian chants are great, too.


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

peeyaj said:


> .. nominate two composers who you think as the greatest composer of vocal music. Lieder, opera arias, cantatas, choral music, are included. Please give a reason why do you think that particular composer strikes you as the greatest..  (Btw, Herr Beethoven is excluded?)


To answer the question, I nominate:

1. Schubert (heart-rending, beautiful, memorable, inimitable, path-breaking, inspiring)
2. Mozart (king of opera, many-sided talents across the whole area of vocal music)

For good measure, here's my no 3-10 spots:

3.	Handel
4.	Purcell
5.	Monteverdi
6.	Bach J S
7.	Palestrina
8.	Mendelssohn
9.	Puccini
10.	Verdi


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

peeyaj said:


> I wish there will be more people who will nominate pre-1700's composers.. Gregorian chants are great, too.


For my second vote, I'll nominate Josquin Desprez! (See now I feel like I kind of snubbed him before by forgetting him).

Also good recent suggestions by Meghan and Toccata, I forgot to mention Mahler and Monteverdi who would definetely also get honorary votes from me.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Just two?

Mozart, then Schubert, if only because I think the dramatic range required for opera composition is greater...


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Mozart is in the poll.. We now have:

1. Bach

2. Mozart

3. Schubert

4. Mahler

5. Britten

we need more..


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

There is an important we should make, and that is the difference between writing vocal music that is instrumental in idiom versus writing vocal music that is truely for the voice (hence vice versa, writing instrumental music that is vocal in idiom).

J. S. Bach cantatas contain many, many pieces that are beautiful vocal music tending be instrumental in idiom. I love them just the same.

Handel was an composer of the voice by vocation. But even his very early vocal works tend to be instrumental in idiom, until he got a real hold of it after a couple of practises with large scale vocal works. Listen to the first movement of the popular _Dixit Dominus_ (HWV22) for example, an early piece (written when 22 years old), clearly shows it is instrumental in idiom. We love it just the same. (Listen to Handel's organ concertos and you will experience the opposite when the solo organ "sings": instrumental music that is vocal in idiom).

Mozart, too. Early vocal pieces, including operas are largely instrumental in idiom especially the vocal fireworks type for the castrati. His mature operas though, are truely beautiful vocal music expressing the emotions of the characters on stage at perfection.

Schubert's songs (at least the various/many that I have experienced) are beautiful vocal music for the voice.

Beethoven's vocal music tend to be instrumental is idiom. We love it just the same.

Anyway, enough of my rant.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Well I'll second Wagner to get him in. There are few works in history like _Tristan und Isolde_ that can capture such immense beauty and sustain it for such a long time.

On top of that, I'll also nominate Schumann, who besides his handful of underrated choral works also wrote dozens of lieder cycles comparable to none but Schubert.

Besides the two mentioned, my all time favorites are Bach and Mozart, who I am glad to see have already made the poll. The only opera to match Tristan in sheer perfection (besides the Ring, though none of the individual operas stand up) is Mozart's _Le Nozze di Figaro_. But Bach is in a class of his own when it comes to choral works... and in the long run he would get my vote.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well, some people have mentioned the "biggies" so mine will be largely different (although not much of a chance for the last few to get in) & the first two I think might get in as others have mentioned them...

Monteverdi

Josquin des Prez

Gesualdo

Byrd

Vivaldi

Ives

Durufle

Ligeti

Piazzolla


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Aksel said:


> Overall, I think my two favourite composers for vocal music are *Händel and Grieg*.


Very interesting, Aksel!

Yes, you're right about opera forum. Must have been discussed there too. Wagner, Verdi, Puccini and many more.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Very interesting, Aksel!
> 
> Yes, you're right about opera forum. Must have been discussed there too. Wagner, Verdi, Puccini and many more.


Well, one must keep one's posts interesting, mustn't one?

But I do agree that it is a rather unusual combination. But well worth exploring nevertheless.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

*Bach* and *Schubert* are obvious. Bach for his unrivaled choral music... cantatas, passions, the Mass in B-minor, the Magnificat, the Christmas Oratorio, etc... Schubert not only for his lieder that took the song to a level of almost symphonic richness as Beethoven achieved with his piano sonatas... but also for his less-well-known choral works.

Next?

*Mozart* for his few exquisite choral works... and for his operas.

*Wagner*... for the manner in which he merges the voice and instruments into a no-stop, flowing, symphonic musical drama.

I like some of Andre's suggestions. *Monteverdi* certainly. His Vespers is magnificent. His L'Orpheo is virtuall the model upon which all opera is built... but then his madrigals! Magnificent!

And *Carlo Gesualdo*! Yes! His choral works... his Tenebrae Responsoria... and his madrigals with their almost shocking use of dissonance push the boundaries of expressiveness.

And certainly *Josquin des Prez*... but more importantly I would add *Guillaume Dufay* whose works pushed the development of polyphony. His isorhythmic motets are especially fascinating... employing an older medieval form and pushing it to the limits of expressiveness... not unlike Bach with the fugue.

*Handel*? Certainly. His efforts within the cantata (and he wrote more than a few) as well as the opera (he composed more than 40) and the oratorio (nearly 30) established an inescapable influence.

But what of *Haydn*? His operas are respectable. Not Mozart... but surely among the finest of the time. But then there's his choral works: the _Creation_, the _Seasons_, the _St. Cecilia Mass_, _The Lord Nelson Mass_, the _Mass in the Time or War_, etc...

Obviously *Schumann* and *Wolf* and *Brahms* should be included if only for their contribution to the German lieder.

I would add *Faure* and *Debussy* for their contribution to the French melodie (or French art songs).

*Tchaikovsky* for his operas and Romances (or Russian art songs).

*Rachmaninoff* for his operas (yes he wrote operas), his Romances, and most importantly, his choral compositions.

*Richard Strauss*- The greatest operatic composer of the 20th century... whose Four Last Songs is to my mind the greatest contribution to the art song of the 20th century.

*Benjamin Britten*- Can there be a more underrated composer for vocal music? He must be second only to Strauss among the operatic composers of the 20th century (unless we count Puccini) with a added incredibly rich body of choral music and art songs.

Among later composers? I like some of what _Ligeti_ achieved... but I think _Penderecki_ may have achieved far more within the vocal forms. I would certainly consider _Arvo Part_... and even _Ned Rorem_ who is the great composer of American art songs.

If I were limited to but two I'd skip my favorites (Bach and Schubert) who are clear-shoo-ins, and nominate Richard Strauss and Benjamen Britten who are not so sure for consideration.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Strauss and Wagner is in!

*
1. Bach

2. Handel

3. Mozart

4. Schubert

5. Wagner

6. Mahler

7. R. Strauss

8. Britten*

Do we stop now?

Thanks, stlukes for very insightful comment! I didn't know, Rach, have written choral music!


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

All of the above are good choices but I believe nobody named Berlioz : Les nuits d'été, a often disregarded and sadly underrated body of work IMO. His Les Troyens is also quite remarkable.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Brahms and Schumann surely deserve a place.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Machiavel said:


> All of the above are good choices but I believe nobody named Berlioz : Les nuits d'été, a often disregarded and sadly underrated body of work IMO. His Les Troyens is also quite remarkable.


Also for Berlioz is the semi-opera La Damnation de Faust and a handful of choral masterpieces, with the most notable being L'enfance du Christ, Te Deum, and the Requiem. I don't know if he can be considered one of the greatest - but the fact that he wrote masterpieces in opera, choral music, and a great song cycle got to count for something.

The Vespers by Rachmaninoff I think is his finest achievement, even finer than the preludes and his piano concertos. However, a lot of his output is lackluster and I don't see his operas as even close to matching Verdi's huge and very consistent output. This, the handful of songs and choral works he (Verdi) composed (including the famous Requiem), and the fact that he is probably the most enduringly popular operatic composer in my opinion should give him an automatic spot on the list.

I agree with Andre and Stlukes about Renaissance and early Baroque composers. It's easy to dismiss this era as "backwards" if you are not familiar with composers like Dufay, des Prez, and Gesualdo who really pushed tonality and experimented heavily with polyphony in a way that dramatically influenced later composers like Bach who could implement these ideas in his great choral works. Monteverdi is perhaps the most significant for his contribution to the creation of opera and his Vespers, but no discussion about the Renaissance is complete, in my opinion, without Palestrina and Byrd as well. The Renaissance was truly the great era of the voice - though relative neglected - and because of this it's sometimes really hard to differentiate "greatness" between composers as we tend to do with later periods. This, however, is not necessarily a bad thing.

Of composers from the last 50 years, both Ligeti and Penderecki have made significant contributions to the vocal repertoire. Ligeti has received a lot of exposure in film scores, with works like Lux Aeterna and the Requiem, but Penderecki's St Luke's Passion is for me a perfect combination of avant-garde techniques and emotional power, massive and brilliant. In opera, Ligeti's Le Grande Macabre is far better than Penderecki's handful of operas combined, so he definitely gets the edge there.

Schumann and Brahms deserve a place.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Berlioz and Schumann are in!

1. Bach

2. Handel

3. Mozart

4. Schubert

5. Berlioz

6. Wagner

7. Schumann

8. R. Strauss

9. Mahler

10. Britten

one ''yes'' and we will close now. The poll will be different..


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Machiavel said:


> All of the above are good choices but I believe nobody named Berlioz : Les nuits d'été, a often disregarded and sadly underrated body of work IMO. His Les Troyens is also quite remarkable.


Apologies for blowing my own trumpet here but I nominated Berlioz (along with Britten) pretty early on. Glad you concur, though.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

I don't really agree that Bach was the best composer for the human voice, as such. He's often accused of treating the human voice like a clarinet or a violin, and there's some truth in that: he often wrote musical lines that are literally impossible for human beings to sing accurately.

There's a difference between asking "Who wrote most idiomatically for the piano?" (Chopin) and asking "Who wrote the best piano music?" (perhaps Beethoven). The same goes for the human voice. Maybe the _Mass in B minor_ and the _St Matthew Passion_ are the greatest compositions involving the human voice, but they're not the compositions that understand the human voice best.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

We're ending! Thanks to all participants.. The poll will be next week. 

@webernite

No one mentioned Bach as the greatest composer for human voice. Hopefully, the poll will answer that..


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

peeyaj said:


> @webernite
> 
> No one mentioned Bach as the greatest composer for human voice. Hopefully, the poll will answer that..


Oh, sorry. I should read things more carefully.


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

peeyaj said:


> Berlioz and Schumann are in!
> 
> 1. Bach
> 
> ...


How come this poll will exclude Verdi, Puccini, Rossini? It's laughable that any poll of the greatest composers for voice should exclude these characters. And to think that Britten and Strauss are in at their expense makes it all the more ridiculous. If I were you, I'd drop the whole idea before this place gets a bad name for incompetence.


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

Mozart hands down. The operas are all the evidence one would need, but for further confirmation, listen to the C minor mass and the Requiem.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Very Senior Member said:


> How come this poll will exclude Verdi, Puccini, Rossini? It's laughable that any poll of the greatest composers for voice should exclude these characters. And to think that Britten and Strauss are in at their expense makes it all the more ridiculous. If I were you, I'd drop the whole idea before this place gets a bad name for incompetence.


Verdi? Certainly. Puccini? I would surely nominate him... but I would also note that if the measure of a great composer of vocal music is the quality and quantity of top-notch vocal compositions Puccini and Rossini are in no way clearly superior to Britten or Strauss to say nothing of any number of composers not nominated: Tchaikovsky, Monteverdi, Haydn, Vivaldi, Bellini, Donizetti, Hugo Wolf, Faure, Debussy, Thomas Tallis, Guillaume Dufay, Carlo Gesualdo, and any number of other composers.


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## Poppin' Fresh (Oct 24, 2009)

The poll would be a mighty disappointment without any bel canto composers.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

@Very Serious Member, Poppin

They were not in the nomination list because no one nominated them! I think if you have posted here, two days ago, surely Verdi and any bel canto composer would be there..


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Verdi? Certainly. Puccini? I would surely nominate him... but I would also note that if the measure of a great composer of vocal music is the quality and quantity of top-notch vocal compositions Puccini and Rossini are in no way clearly superior to Britten or Strauss to say nothing of any number of composers not nominated: Tchaikovsky, Monteverdi, Haydn, Vivaldi, Bellini, Donizetti, Hugo Wolf, Faure, Debussy, Thomas Tallis, Guillaume Dufay, Carlo Gesualdo, and any number of other composers.


Nobody really takes these polls seriously other than it is a list of composers that many would consider as greatest-whatever. The statistical results aren't really going to provide any real basis for statistical inference, so it's all just a bit of fun and discussion, and revealed preferences of fellow members (which is what I find most useful - who are the fellow members who like the weird electronic fart variety, in particular). :lol:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Of course such polls are meaningless... (we all know that J.S. Bach was the greatest at everything he did) And surely such polls are just as meaningless as arguments to the effect that it is all the fault of the listeners that "music" by obscure if not virtually unknown composers of the "electronic fart variety" is not as popular as Beethoven. Of course considering that I'm the one who coined the term "electronic fart music" I guess we all know where I would stand in your poll.:lol:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I don't know what's the basis of both of your obsessions with "electronic fart music." Virtually no-one else talks about it here except you two. I only report on what electronica I have listened to usually on the "latest concerts" or "current listening" or other relevant threads. There's no need to elevate a thing you like and at the same time deprecate a thing you don't like. Eg. I like J. S. Bach better than Xenakis, therefore Bach is better/greater/better looking whatever than Xenakis. It's yet another straw-man fallacy.

As for the projected poll, it's all fine, a bit of fun, etc. Compared to others around here, I'm basically clueless about many aspects of vocal music. But the most important thing for me is the variety - going to concerts regularly & seeing artsong & choral music, whether it be by European, American or Australian composers from a variety of periods & styles (yes, the poll will be very Eurocentric, as usual). Eg. I've never heard Pergolesi's _Stabat Mater _before & will probably go to hear it live this Easter (an appropriate time!). Same with Schubert's _Winterreise _later on in the year. & yes, I also like contemporary choral combined with electronic elements - eg. Saariaho, Glowicka, Trevor Wishart. Basically, they're all good - you don't have to have knowledge of J. S. Bach or whoever to enjoy and appreciate all of them (regardless of so-called "greatness" which is a very rubbery concept anyway, imo - please see below).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> And surely such polls are just as meaningless as arguments to the effect that it is all the fault of the listeners that "music" by obscure if not virtually unknown composers of the "electronic fart variety" is not as popular as Beethoven.


Neither are "obscure" and (to the majority of classical music listeners) "virtually unknown composers" such as Biber or Zelenka or Rorem or whoever as popular as Beethoven. So what? It all depends on who you ask.

& if so called "greatness" (yes, a very loaded term) equated with popularity, I hazard a guess that not much classical music could hold up to the "greatness" of say pop, rock, hip-hop or techno, especially amongst the youngsters of today.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> Of course considering that I'm the one who coined the term "electronic fart music"...


Yes, you coined it, and it's becoming a rather tired joke around here, shared mainly by two people ...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Neither are "obscure" and (to the majority of classical music listeners) "virtually unknown composers" such as Biber or Zelenka or Rorem or whoever as popular as Beethoven. So what? It all depends on who you ask.

& if so called "greatness" (yes, a very loaded term) equated with popularity, I hazard a guess that not much classical music could hold up to the "greatness" of say pop, rock, hip-hop or techno, especially amongst the youngsters of today.

Andre... there are surely levels of obscurity. When last I looked, Biber, Zelenka, and Ned Rorem were all readily available in recordings on major labels. Now I will agree that this is no guarantee of merit... for or against. Lady Gaga is certainly more readily available than Biber, while I am certain that there are any number of contemporary composers of merit who currently struggle for attention. However, I will say that I suspect a degree of posturing involved whenever anyone rattles off a slew of names of "favorite" artists (in any art form) and virtually none of them are known to the vast majority of those who have more than a passing degree of knowledge of the art.

If, for example, an artist were to rattle off a list of favorite contemporary painters and I found that I did not recognize any of them, I would certainly be somewhat suspect of their true merit... especially if I took the time to look them up on the internet and discovered that almost none of them could be found in reproductions, in articles in the art magazines, or represented in the major galleries.

_Originally Posted by StlukesguildOhio View Post
Of course considering that I'm the one who coined the term "electronic fart music"..._

Yes, you coined it, and it's becoming a rather tired joke around here, shared mainly by two people .

Actually, I don't recall using the term all that often after having first coined it here... indeed, if I recall correctly, you were the first to pick up on the term after me. As you are undoubtedly aware, I am one of the members who probably listens to far more contemporary classical music than a great majority... including any number of composers who employ electronics: Tristan Murail, Steve reich, Philip Glass, Kaija Saariaho, Julian Anderson, Gerard Grisey, etc... However... just as there are examples of the extreme avant gard in the visual arts... installations that regularly seem to employ condoms, blood, intestines, and grainy video footage in a lame attempt to outrage and shock, so there are extremes of "musical" experimentation that strike me as just as meaningless... vacuous... and ultimately sad. Just as Vito Acconci ************ under a ramp in a New York art gallery or Piero Manzoni's canned artist's crap or Chris Burden shooting himself are difficult to take seriously as art, so there are surely works of "music" that are difficult to take seriously as "classical music"... as "serious music"... but admittedly, that's just me.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

@ stlukes -

You make some good points. Not wanting to derail the thread, I'll make some brief points to clarify what I was trying to say earlier & discuss what you said:

- As I said, what is "obscure" kind of depends who you ask - big Baroque fans will have heard the music of "obscure"composers of that era, and same with any other era/genre. Same with electronic music.

- What's "out there" in the latest electronica is not all on amazon or even on disc. A lot of it might only be played live, but it doesn't mean electronica fans don't know this music. For example, I saw a piece by Trevor Wishart live last year here in Sydney at a choral electronica concert. He's considered one of the major figures in this field, and has been for decades. But I just looked on amazon, & there's not much for sale from him. & you'll even find that with the "major" electronica composers of the older/dead generation - eg. Boulez, Xenakis, Stockhausen - there's not actually that much on the market, maybe one or two (if you're lucky) recordings of certain pieces of electronica of theirs. Just because they don't have as many cd's out as some other composers doesn't mean they aren't fairly well known by people who revolve in certain circles & have certain interests.

- I feel that you & HarpsichordConcerto are dismissing electronica wholus bolus. Even if you carefully say "obscure," I think you really mean the whole genre (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but that seems to be the subtext of what you're saying). Dismissing electronica in this way is just as silly as doing the same with acoustic music. You've been a passionate music lover for decades, from what I know. HC is probably the same, no doubt. I think that you both should perhaps know better than that.

I just feel that people like me who are interested/passionate about electronica are the inadverdent targets of your jibes. Maybe I should lighten up but it's sometimes not pleasant to be in this kind of space, to be seen as the minority...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Wait, wait, wait!

Verdi!

Please, Verdi! Well, obviously it won't be a popular choice in the poll since he didn't get nominated. But I think that was a bit of an oversight.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Andre said:


> I just feel that people like me who are interested/passionate about electronica are the inadverdent targets of your jibes. Maybe I should lighten up but it's sometimes not pleasant to be in this kind of space, to be seen as the minority...


I may be missing your point, but are you bothered by someone suggesting you are a minority or that what you like is not good or valuable? I think we are all in the minority for music appreciation. You obviously have clear views about what you like and seem to know as much or more than almost anyone else on this board about that area of music. Personally I value your views and knowledge. I have yet to see the light in modern music, but one of the reasons I came to this board was to learn more and see if that knowledge could help me appreciate modern music better.

I do believe that most modern music is "in the minority" as far as classical music appreciation in general. I also feel that's probably not a good thing, and I've tried to understand better why that is. Many of my views (outside classical music) are in a VERY small minority, but generally I believe that's not because my views don't have worth but rather that others don't have the background I do and haven't spent the time exploring those ideas.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

What's "out there" in the latest electronica is not all on amazon or even on disc. A lot of it might only be played live, but it doesn't mean electronica fans don't know this music. For example, I saw a piece by Trevor Wishart live last year here in Sydney at a choral electronica concert. He's considered one of the major figures in this field, and has been for decades. But I just looked on amazon, & there's not much for sale from him. & you'll even find that with the "major" electronica composers of the older/dead generation - eg. Boulez, Xenakis, Stockhausen - there's not actually that much on the market, maybe one or two (if you're lucky) recordings of certain pieces of electronica of theirs. Just because they don't have as many cd's out as some other composers doesn't mean they aren't fairly well known by people who revolve in certain circles & have certain interests.

OK Andre... let's approach the question of electronica, musique concrète, turntables, etc... And how these fit within the realm of what we call "classical" music. If I look to an analogous field: literature, it is largely accepted that "classic literature" denotes those serious literary efforts that have been around long enough and continue to resonate with the literary academics, serious readers, and subsequent writers. It is recognized by most serious readers that the term "contemporary classic" is an oxymoron. This is not because it is believed that nothing by contemporary writers is worthy of comparison with the finest from the past, but rather, because it is recognized that even the "experts" are not in agreement as to what works are or are not truly "contemporary classics". Many feel that Philip Roth and Gabriel Garcia Marquez are worthy of such. Others are not so certain.

Now when we shift to the field of "classical music" we are confronted with a problem. The term "classical" does not merely denote a style such as "jazz" or "blues" does. You know as well as anyone that within the overarching term "classical music" there is an array of music that is incredibly diverse. The chanson of medieval troubadours have little in common with Byzantine chant, Baroque opera, the Romantic symphony, or the efforts of Bartok or Takemitsu. What they all do share in common is that they have survived and continue to be recognized as important achievements within the tradition of "serious" Western music.

The term "serious" is then where we run into problems. We recognize that most of the music that has survived did so because the composers were educated enough to write the music down, thus preserving it. Undoubtedly, there were endless folk musicians... amateurs, traveling performers, etc... whose music is forever lost because they lacked a means of preservation. Technologies of the 20th century changed all that. With electronic and digital recordings even those who cannot read and write music can preserve music. Looking at the music of the past there is no debate between "high" and "low" music... because the only voice that has been preserved is that of the "high" artists. But now this dichotomy between "high" and "low" is open to discussion and disagreement.

If we recognize that the term "classical" does not denote a style (after all, what does Richard Strauss have in common with Xenakis or eRikm stylistically?) then the obvious conclusion we come to is that is that the term "classical" is used largely to denote quality. The question then becomes who decides what music from late Modernism through the present is worthy of being called "classic"? What music from this era to the present is the best?

It would seem to me that it is possible that we may find that there is music in nearly every genre and style and group that is of real merit and has the potential of survival... the potential of eventually becoming recognized as part of the "classic" Western tradition. This notion, however, bothers some people... and not only the reactionary/conservatives who are forever berated for not being open to alternative voices in "classical" music, but also among the sworn champions and gladiators of the avant gard. The conservatives would argue that only those composers who clearly continue within the tradition that they recognize as "classical music"... symphonic music... (largely the Baroque through early Modernism) is worthy of recognition as "classical music". A good number among the self-proclaimed avant-gard, on the other hand, would co-opt the term "classical music" and apply it to whatever esoteric noises they happen to be enthralled with while not only dismissing the possibility that some of the more "traditional" composers (Ned Rorem, Alan Hovhaness, Arvo Part, Osvaldo Golijov, Jake Heggie, Peteris Vasks, etc...) may have something worthy to add to the dialog of contemporary music... as well as disregarding the efforts of those composers/musicians outside the realm of traditional "serious music"... outside academia... such as might be found among the realms of Jazz, Blues, Rock, Pop, Blue Grass, Folk, etc... It may just be that the efforts of some musicians, performers and composers within these "non-classical" genre may actually be as good or better than a good deal of what is championed by the avant gard... or the reactionary/conservatives of "classical music"... and such music may continue to remain far more relevant to far more people than Xenakis, Stockhausen, Glass, Part, Golijov, Hovhaness, or eRikm.

Now while I often disagree with Argus and his cultural relativism, I quite concurred when he dared to ask Some Guy what he thought of Funk and Bluegrass for the answer certainly might have been quite revealing. Why should I... or anyone... take eRikm any more seriously than Miles Davis? Why should I accept the notion that one self-proclaimed expert's opinions upon what contemporary music is of the most merit over that of my own thoughts... or those of a great majority of others?

Again... I am always open to new musical experiences, but one is not likely to be open to such when they are presented as if they were the only option... the only true "classical" music of today... as opposed to anything I or anyone else might like. Again, it would seem to be that the most successful strategy would be to simply offer up some thoughts on what you like with some solid descriptions: "Hey, I really like this composer because...." and perhaps connect this with a link to an excerpt of the music in question.

We had just such a thread going for a while. I would certainly be all for reviving this instead of endless futile arguments that are little more than insults of what the individual dislikes and attempts to canonize what one does admire.

:tiphat:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

@ stlukes - you make interesting points, and not to derail this thread any longer, I'll reply by PM when I get the chance...


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Nice thoughts there, StlukesguildOhio. I could say I almost agree with it entirely.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

science said:


> Wait, wait, wait!
> 
> Verdi!
> 
> Please, Verdi! Well, obviously it won't be a popular choice in the poll since he didn't get nominated. But I think that was a bit of an oversight.


Verdi!

[Here are more words.]


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

I'm still thinking what to do with the poll. We will have one in Wednesday/Thursday.


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## hespdelk (Mar 19, 2011)

Late to the thread - but I agree Verdi should be high on the list. Same goes for many of the other major opera composers who seem to have been neglected. (Puccini.. Donizetti - singers love Donizetti for how his lines sit in the range)

From much earlier on I would have also nominated Monteverdi, bridging the late rennaissance and forging the baroque his mastery in the different styles that were current at the time always shines through.

Of course if we want to be exhaustively thorough it would no longer be a list but a book. :lol:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I maintain that Brahms should be on there as well (German Requiem, Alt rhapody, numerous songs).


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

The question as stated is perhaps too complex for an easy answer. Are you asking whose works I most prefer, who had the greatest understanding of the human voice, or something else?
An interesting article: http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_wagnerian_method/P1/
Siegfried vs. "Sahgfried" aside, Wagner seems to have had a better understanding of vocal production than perhaps any of his predecessors or contemporaries. So one could easily make an argument for his being included in any such list of greatest composers for the human voice.

From a personal preference standpoint, Handel would certainly be in my top 2. I'd have a difficult time narrowing it down to just one more.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Mozart wins in the end!


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

I'm a year too late, however I wish to mention Erik Bergman and Karol Szymanowski as the two composers who've made unique contributions to the area of vocal music.

Szymanowski's songs (Songs of the Infatuated Mezzuin, "Song of the Night" Symphony No.3, etc.) are heady works requiring virtuoso singing.
Vocal techniques can be stretched to their very limits by Erik Bergman (Dreams, Hathor Suite, Bim Bam Bum, the Singing Tree opera, etc.), whose choral pieces can be simultaneously avant-garde and yet enchanting.


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## Romantic Geek (Dec 25, 2009)

Shame Brahms and Grieg didn't make the list. 

Also...how about a nod to Palestrina and Victoria?


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

M & M for me. Yup, it's a tie.

View attachment 4795


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Machiavel said:


> All of the above are good choices but I believe nobody named Berlioz : Les nuits d'été, a often disregarded and sadly underrated body of work IMO. His Les Troyens is also quite remarkable.


as well as single-handedly inventing the song cycle, just a teeny little contribution


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