# Earliest pieces that could be considered "political" or "anti establishment."



## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

*Earliest pieces that could be considered "political" or "anti establishment."*

I'm curious as to when pieces began to be composed with some political or anti-establishment or protest purpose.

I was inspired to ask this question after hearing the song Eve of Destruction on the radio today. That is clearly a protest song, and I'm curious if there was a classical period or romantic period equivalent to that song.

Please feel free to treat this question broadly, and I hope I am not asking a stupid question. I'm genuinely curious as to when a political or protest element found its way into classical music.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Lots and lots and lots of early music was composed to celebrate the coronation of kings and emperors, often with religious allegorical context. Thus it was certainly political. Even our pal Beethoven (see the two early cantatas). I think you've got to go a LONG way back to avoid this. Now political protest in music is another thing...


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

How about Sederunt principes by Perotin? 12th or 13th century.

Latin text:
Sederunt principes, et adversum me loquebantur:
et iniqui persecunti sunt me.
Adjuva me, Domine Deus meus:
salvum me fac propter misericordiam tuam

English text:
The princes sat, and spoke against me:
they have persecuted me unjustly.
Do thou help me, Lord my God:
Save me for thy mercy's sake. 

(from Psalm 118)

(or, if the psalm itself is a piece of music, then 1000 BC or a bit later depending how you measure)


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Protest song... = the lyrics are doing the talking. I'll leave other text / text-contextual protests in classical music to others.

One 'absolute' piece of music, without a hint in the title or any textual reference as to what the protest was, yet containing a very clear message of protest (though it was rather tamely 'domestic,') is 
Haydn ~ Symphony in F# minor.





It is the sole piece I can think of which makes any sort of protest solely by musical means.

Explanation, as extracted from Wiki, (Wikipedia good enough in this instance)
"It was written for Haydn's patron, Prince Nikolaus Esterházy, while he, Haydn and the court orchestra were at the Prince's summer palace in Eszterháza. The stay there had been longer than expected, and most of the musicians had been forced to leave their wives back at home in Eisenstadt. 
In the last movement of the symphony, during the final adagio, each musician stops playing, snuffs out the candle on his music stand, and leaves in turn, so that at the end, there are just two muted violins left (played by Haydn himself and the concertmaster, Alois Luigi Tomasini). 
Esterházy seems to have understood the message: the court returned to Eisenstadt the day following the performance."

ADD: Frederic Rzewski's massive set of 32 variations for piano, modeled after Beethoven's _Diabelli Variations_, tips the protest / message game in its title, the piece otherwise without text or text references.
Rzewski ~ The people united will never be defeated.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

EricABQ said:


> I'm curious as to when pieces began to be composed with some political or anti-establishment or protest purpose.
> 
> I was inspired to ask this question after hearing the song Eve of Destruction on the radio today. That is clearly a protest song, and I'm curious if there was a classical period or romantic period equivalent to that song.
> 
> Please feel free to treat this question broadly, and I hope I am not asking a stupid question. I'm genuinely curious as to when a political or protest element found its way into classical music.


In reference to the Barry Maguire hit song (written by P.F. Sloan), it drew flak from conservatives. A group called The Spokesmen released an answer record entitled_ "The Dawn of Correction"._ A few months later, Green Beret medic Sgt. Barry Sadler released the patriotic _"Ballad of the Green Berets"._ Johnny Sea's spoken word recording, _"Day For Decision", _was also a response to the song.

The song was banned by some radio stations in the USA, claiming it was an aid to the enemy in Vietnam, and also by Radio Scotland. 
It was placed on a "restricted list" by the BBC, and could not be played on "general entertainment programmes".

Pete Seeger and the Weavers did some protest labor songs, as well as Woody Guthrie. Guthrie actually travelled to union meetings and sang at labor camps. There's a box set of Labor Movement Songs, but it's $250....The Seeger song "If I Had A Hammer" was accused of being Communistic (Hammer...sickle...get it?). Also, Woody Guthrie's "This Land Is Your Land" was accused similarly, just as Barack Obama was accused of being a "Muslim Socialist" for wanting to feed poor people. :lol:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

There's some definite anti-war music in the last movement, the Agnus Dei, of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis. So far as I can tell, earlier composers considered war an "everyone had a jolly good time" affair.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"The Seeger song "If I Had A Hammer" was accused of being Communistic (Hammer...sickle...get it?)"

Pete Seeger was more than a fellow traveler. Wiki: "In 1936, at the age of 17, Pete Seeger joined the Young Communist League (YCL), then at the height of its popularity and influence. In 1942 he became a member of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA) itself. He eventually "drifted away" (his words) from the Party in the late 1940s and 1950s." A lot of people were associated with Communism in those days, including some very prominent ones such as Robert Oppenheimer. It is quite hard for us today to understand those times, or the circumstances that drove people's beliefs. And do we know that they were wrong?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Interesting topic, but I'll expand it away from just songs towards opera. One of the big ones I can think of is parallels between John Gay's Beggar's Opera and the Threepenny Opera by Brecht & Weill. Both of them focus on the corruption and injustices in their societies of the time - whether 18th century England or Weimar Germany. But opera and other musical drama type things have always been highly political in many ways. After Beethoven's Fidelio it became more and more common, and a case of the composer doing things like setting things way back in time to avoid the censors. In effect, to make political comments appear as historical dramas/subjects, to disguise them with these metaphors.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Well, Mozart and daPonte had to get special permission to set The Marriage of Figaro to music, because the original Beaumarchais play was considered seditious -- but the problematic parts were toned down for the opera.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> "The Seeger song "If I Had A Hammer" was accused of being Communistic (Hammer...sickle...get it?)"
> 
> Pete Seeger was more than a fellow traveler. Wiki: "In 1936, at the age of 17, Pete Seeger joined the Young Communist League (YCL), then at the height of its popularity and influence. In 1942 he became a member of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA) itself. He eventually "drifted away" (his words) from the Party in the late 1940s and 1950s." A lot of people were associated with Communism in those days, including some very prominent ones such as Robert Oppenheimer. *It is quite hard for us today to understand those times*, or the circumstances that drove people's beliefs. And do we know that they were wrong?


.*..And quite easy to misunderstand? Never let an opportunity slip by...*

Yeah, Seeger was raised as a Communist, but this was before the cold war (his mother was composer Ruth Crawford Seeger). This was before Stalin ruined it. I would consider these early adherents to be "Marxist idealists."


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Since "political" could be defined as "... relating to, affecting, or acting according to the interests of status or authority within an organization rather than matters of principle," then the earliest male tribal leaders of cavemen, beating on women with sticks (rhythmically) and yelling "Graaahh!" could be considered an early form of political music which is "political," i.e., maintaining male authority and dominance over women.

In fact, most feminists would see most music produced by male authority as being "political." Since the Church was the prime keeper of Patriarchy, then all religious music could be seen as "political." Look what happened to Hildegard von Bingen when she wrote music and became "too big for her britches."


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Interesting topic, but I'll expand it away from just songs towards opera. One of the big ones I can think of is parallels between John Gay's Beggar's Opera and the Threepenny Opera by Brecht & Weill. Both of them focus on the corruption and injustices in their societies of the time - whether 18th century England or Weimar Germany. But opera and other musical drama type things have always been highly political in many ways. After Beethoven's Fidelio it became more and more common, and a case of the composer doing things like setting things way back in time to avoid the censors. In effect, to make political comments appear as historical dramas/subjects, to disguise them with these metaphors.


That is a good one.

Mozart's operas _Don Giovanni_ and _Figaro_ both allude to the aristocracy as sexual predators, a point that was at least a little subversive. By contrast you can see Adams' _Giselle_ (though it's later) where the victim's willing submission amounts to a legitimization of the aristocratic privilege. I'd like to think Adams intended to creep us out, but that's probably wishful thinking. Mozart, though, I suspect, meant to. And of course _The Magic Flute_ has been understood as supportive of the French Revolution (via Freemasonry).

I feel we can go even earlier, but we'll have to brainstorm a bit.

Good topic!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

"Classical music" itself is political. in toto.

From WIK,

*Weimar Classicism* was a cultural and literary movement based in Weimar that sought to establish a new humanism by synthesizing Romantic, classical and Enlightenment ideas. The movement, from 1772 until 1805, legitimized the promotion of German language and culture and helped shape the development of German nationalism, and argued that every folk had its own particular identity, which was expressed in its language and culture. German music, sponsored by the upper classes, came of age under Bach, Haydn and Mozart.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

There was a Renaissance piece that Goodall mentioned in his recent series, it was some motet I think, so maybe it was Monteverdi. Apparently the text, I assume an original text, referred to the persecution of somebody for their religious beliefs.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> In fact, most feminists would see most music produced by male authority as being "political." Since the Church was the prime keeper of Patriarchy, then all religious music could be seen as "political." Look what happened to Hildegard von Bingen when she wrote music and became "too big for her britches."


What happened?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Nereffid said:


> What happened?


I believe she died full of honors, respected by all who knew her. See Wiki.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I believe she died full of honors, respected by all who knew her. See Wiki.


Well, a picture is worth a thousand words. Just the fact that she was a woman caused friction in the Church.






Also from WIK:

In recent years, Hildegard has become of particular interest to feminist scholars. They note her reference to herself as a member of the "weaker sex" and her rather constant belittling of women. Hildegard frequently referred to herself as an unlearned woman, completely incapable of Biblical exegesis. Such a statement on her part, however, worked to her advantage because it made her statements that all of her writings and music came from visions of the Divine more believable, therefore giving Hildegard the authority to speak in a time and place where few women were permitted a voice. Hildegard used her voice to condemn church practices she disagreed with, in particular simony.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Well, a picture is worth a thousand words. Just the fact that she was a woman caused friction in the Church.


In this case a "picture" is the trailer for a work of fiction, though. And besides, it says nothing about her music, which was what you were talking about in the first place.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

The Goliards were a group of medieval clergy who made up satirical Latin verse & are responsible for 'the earliest European secular music', according to Wikipedia. 
And Carolan in 18th century Ireland, though he relied on patrons in the Anglo-Irish gentry, wrote 'Squire Wood's Lamentation on the Refusal of his Halfpence': Wood's halfpence was a debasement of the currency which was also opposed by Jonathan Swift.
However, the Carolan piece sounds beautiful, like a straight lament, so is a failure as far as satire goes...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Ingenue said:


> The Goliards were a group of medieval clergy who made up satirical Latin verse & are responsible for 'the earliest European secular music', according to Wikipedia.
> And Carolan in 18th century Ireland, though he relied on patrons in the Anglo-Irish gentry, wrote 'Squire Wood's Lamentation on the Refusal of his Halfpence': Wood's halfpence was a debasement of the currency which was also opposed by Jonathan Swift.
> However, the Carolan piece sounds beautiful, like a straight lament, so is a failure as far as satire goes...


That's right, the original Carmina Burana songs - you're not gonna get much more subversive or much earlier.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Nereffid said:


> In this case a "picture" is the trailer for a work of fiction, though. And besides, it says nothing about her music, which was what you were talking about in the first place.


So far as I know, HvB wrote the earliest music we have that can be attributed to a composer. Also interesting that she is still not fully recognized as a saint. Maybe because she was a bit weak on the "obedience" stuff, which is still considered pretty important in the church.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

KenOC said:


> So far as I know, HvB wrote the earliest music we have that can be attributed to a composer. Also interesting that she is still not fully recognized as a saint. Maybe because she was a bit weak on the "obedience" stuff, which is still considered pretty important in the church.


Canonisation in a formal way came late to the Church & before that, local recognition was important but sometimes got out of hand - in the twentieth century, local people wanted Eva Perron to be canonised. There were people who might have been sainted but weren't because, as you suggest, they cut ecclesiastical red tape. An example is Bishop Robert Grosseteste of Lincoln, who protested against nepotism, was excommunicated, and then died. He had a local cult - according to legend, on the night he died, 'bells rang without men's hands'. In the case of HvB, as Wikipedia has said, 'it's complicated'; but the fact that Pope Benedict proclaimed her a Doctor of the Church in 2012 might suggest that she has official recognition...

Edit-added: she is listed in the Catholic Encyclopaedia as Saint Hildegarde - feast day 17th September.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Nereffid said:


> In this case a "picture" is the trailer for a work of fiction, though. And besides, it says nothing about her music, which was what you were talking about in the first place.


.........


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ingenue said:


> Edit-added: she is listed in the Catholic Encyclopaedia as Saint Hildegarde - feast day 17th September.


Wiki lists the "Doctors of the Church." The names of all, including HvB, are preceded by the honorific "St." Complicated indeed!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_the_Church


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

starry said:


> There was a Renaissance piece that Goodall mentioned in his recent series, it was some motet I think, so maybe it was Monteverdi. Apparently the text, I assume an original text, referred to the persecution of somebody for their religious beliefs.


Probably Josquin des Prez's _Miserere_, written in memory of Savonarola, responsible for the so called "Bonfires of the Vanities". The text was a poem written by Savonarola himself while imprisoned in which he apologises to god for confessing to things that he wasn't guilty of, so it was an extremely politically charged work.

The idea of "anti establishment" is a rather modern idea and doesn't really well fit most of history. We have the freedom to be anti establishment these days but to be against the basic structures of a highly organised medieval society would be to mark yourself off as mad and most likely get you killed. Political satire or criticism of certain aspects of the political structure is probably as old as politics. The greek drama is certainly full of political satire and that was very musical, if not entirely sung.

People still argue just how much political satire is in the music of Shostakovich, if we can't easily identify it in such recent works it will be pretty difficult to say for certain which romantic or classical works had a subtle subtext about the the afairs of their time.


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