# Enjoying some Mozart & Stockhausen (moment form, phrases, discontinuity, consistency)



## Guest (Aug 18, 2018)

*Enjoying some Mozart & Stockhausen (moment form, phrases, discontinuity, consistency)*

Mozart's music has been at the forefront of my mind lately for work related reasons, so when I am not working I tend to spend some more time with other kinds of music.

Something I find really attractive about Mozart's music are the sudden contrasts between a string of different phrases, all bound by a particular harmonic language and instrumentation. One of my favourite works of all time is probably his Symphony no. 41, where the first movement's exposition is a fantastic example of a string of unrelated phrases. Even though I now know it well, the first time I ever heard it was a rather perplexing but intriguing experience; I sort of always knew what kind of thing to expect but I would often be surprised by the actual nature of the music which was always just around the corner.

Even in Mozart's 'lighter' music he employs this kind of melodic composition, a string of unrelated phrases make up the exposition to the first movement of Serenade no. 13 in G major:






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Between 1958 and 1960, Stockhausen realised one of his biggest achievements yet in the realm of electronic music: _Kontakte_. One of the characteristics of this piece and quite a few others of Stockhausen's is the idea of a larger form being made up of smaller distinct units of music, or _moments_. Wikipedia has an article about Moment Form, explaining much better than I could and it seems to be something of an aesthetic and formal concern across a lot of Stockhausen's music, but also something I find present (to varying degrees) in many other more contemporary composers I listen to.

I find myself enjoying the unpredictable, yet consistent sense of musicality through form to be very relatable to things I love so much about Mozart's music, actually. Not only are do they both guide my ear through distinct and contrasting musical 'moments' with a certain kind of consistency respective to each, but also there is a sense (for me) of always being in the present moment as each musical idea is conveyed through sound.






Maybe it's just my own perception and no one else really cares for it, but it's an amazing feeling to find these sorts of similarities between such wildly contrasting music!

What do you think?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Enjoying some Mozart & Stockhausen … *

Of course you are!


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Glad you mentioned the 1st mvt of sy 41. It's full of drama - bursting with energy - with an exhilarating flourish at the end. I can never understand why in this sy everybody focuses on the finale and disregard the wonders of the 1st mvt.

Eine Kleine - another great piece. I often wonder if Mozart had sketched out just the first nine notes of the 1st mvt - whether anyone could have filled in the next nine, as they are. It sounds so obvious what the next notes will be when we listen to it - and people say M is predictable. But I wonder.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2018)

stomanek said:


> Glad you mentioned the 1st mvt of sy 41. It's full of drama - bursting with energy - with an exhilarating flourish at the end. I can never understand why in this sy everybody focuses on the finale and disregard the wonders of the 1st mvt.
> 
> Eine Kleine - another great piece. I often wonder if Mozart had sketched out just the first nine notes of the 1st mvt - whether anyone could have filled in the next nine, as they are. It sounds so obvious what the next notes will be when we listen to it - and people say M is predictable. But I wonder.


Heck yeah I complete agree about both pieces.

I do have a feeling that, intellectually/analytically, there has been so much importance given to the thematic 'tightness' of various pieces of music; Bach's 2 part invention no. 1 is one very elaborate development of a very small music motif, Beethoven certainly does a lot with a single motif, Brahms creates various themes by expanding on a single motif (and Schoenberg and others have analysed his 'developing variation' in _great_ detail). Even serial works by Webern, Boulez, Stockhausen, Babbitt, Stravinsky and others have been analysed for their structural unity through the construction and deployment of their 12 note matrices in much the same way. The finale of the 41st symphony of Mozart is, again, something similar; a small collection of motifs are spun out, developed and transformed in various ways over the course of the movement giving it some kind of thematic unity.

But I believe there are so many interesting things in music where the opposite is the case, where there are dozens of contrasting phrases, ideas, motifs and moments that are pitted against one another in a way which might sound cohesive but might not depending on what the composer has done and what we listen for. The first movement of the same Mozart symphony seems to be one of these pieces, as are many 20th and 21st century works that I particularly enjoy.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Here is Mozart's _Nachtmusik_ in one of his happiest most cheerful moods ever, and Stockhausen in not quite as happy or cheerful a mood, sounding more mysterious and suspenseful than Mozart, but neither is _Kontakte_ dark or moody. It's good to hear a modern composer with some semblance of a sense of humor and sense of light, which I feel that Stockhausen had in his experimental works overall as something positive. So perhaps one can say that, between these two composers, there is a similarity of something upbeat in their respective styles and perhaps in attitude or mood... I think it helps to remember, as far as understanding the sounds that Stockhausen uses, how much he wrote during the time of the space race between the US and Soviet Union that was hotter than a pistol. There was not only the space race but the political competition of the Cold War, not that he was directly part of that through his music, but there was a great deal of experimentation taking place in electronic music that could perhaps be related to it and heard as a perfect reflection of the times. Unlike Sir Thomas Beecham, who famously insulted the composer, I'm generally happy to step into some Stockhausen every now and then.  And some Mozart, always.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

It's interesting that there's a specific term for this. I've always enjoyed that about the expositions of Mozart's piano concertos, especially the first movement of the 23rd which always sounds to me like enough material for three concertos finely condensed into one.

It proofs the music well against fatigue because, however brilliantly a theme is expanded, if I get tired of it I usually get at least a little bit tired of all the music that grows out of it as well, and I do find Stockhausen's Kontakte, which is one of a handful of pieces of its kind I really love, "inexhaustible" by way of not really developing in a traditional way.

Maybe I'm blundering here because I can't read music and I only really perceive half of what's happening when I listen to him, but Bach came to my mind before Mozart when I read the OP. I love that as his fugues progress brand new counter melodies and angles are always emerging that don't just sound like the original theme repurposed. I've always enjoyed his music more as a series of kindred, individual moments with their own distinct personalities more than as a single narrative, and because of that his music survives repeated listening better than anyone else's for me.

I also always return to many intros that provide me a similar effect; for instance I prefer many of the floaty, enigmatic introductions in Haydn's London symphonies to the more goal-oriented music that comes after it (which I also love!). I just love how those parts extend tendrils of their general character and mood without getting tied down to a rhythm or specific purpose. It strikes me in a mystical way.

Lastly I enjoy something like this phenomenon in post classical era opera, or whenever the line between recitative and aria became more blurred. I'd always felt the music in opera was hampered by the libretto because it could not proportion itself in a way that was exclusively conducive to the momentum of its pure musical ideas - like if the music was trying to get down a road the necessities of adhering to the constantly shifting words were like bumps marring the fluidity of that journey.

It seemed to me that pronunciations of words contain or imply certain rhythms, note divisions, or even pitches and thus become like randomly generated musical ideas, and so what are the chances that any of these, if your goal is to do what's best for the music itself, could possibly be the absolute best element to fit in their particular context when they were created before the musical context even existed? Sometimes I still feel that way (if that even made any sense at all) but other times I find that the setting of so many unique sentences to music leads to disconnected "moments" of beauty in opera like you're describing, and that would never have emerged in pure music.

I think the opening scene of Madama Butterfly is a good example. 




Even what is more intoned speech than actual singing here sounds so delightful to me, and because each sentence contains different words, to point out the obvious, it's like a series of uniquely beautiful melodies. I love the introduction of the servants and when he asks their names "I nomi?" Just the way he sings those two words is lovely to me and would be even if all the characters were making nonsense noises - but what musical mind thinking in terms of pure music and not the setting of dialogue would ever have written a "transcription" of those exact same notes in that order?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

It's nice to see Eine kleine Nachtmusik discussed positively on TC. I always love hearing it.

I certainly do not understand technical details of Moment Form, but I do enjoy the seemingly momentary appearance and disappearance of motifs in modern works such as Stockhausen's Gruppen and Boulez's Sur incises. I find myself delighting in the short bursts of varying timbres that pop up "out of nowhere." I would also describe my listening as "being in the present moment as each musical idea is conveyed through sound" although I doubt I recognize relationships between moments as you might.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

shirime said:


> Mozart's music has been at the forefront of my mind lately for work related reasons, so when I am not working I tend to spend some more time with other kinds of music.
> 
> Something I find really attractive about Mozart's music are the sudden contrasts between a string of different phrases, all bound by a particular harmonic language and instrumentation. One of my favourite works of all time is probably his *Symphony no. 41, where the first movement's exposition is a fantastic example of a string of unrelated phrases*. Even though I now know it well, the first time I ever heard it was a rather perplexing but intriguing experience; I sort of always knew what kind of thing to expect but I would often be surprised by the actual nature of the music which was always just around the corner.
> 
> ---


Except they are not unrelated. There is a great deal of motivic unity among the themes. The whole first theme group shares motives, which find their way into the second theme group as well. Only a bit of the closing and a few phrases in the second sentence of the principal theme are independent of the main ideas.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> Except they are not unrelated. There is a great deal of motivic unity among the themes. The whole first theme group shares motives, which find their way into the second theme group as well. Only a bit of the closing and a few phrases in the second sentence of the principal theme are independent of the main ideas.


I meant the second theme group, that's right.

However I do think there is something quite fascinating about Mozart's general ability to write a sequence of phrases in such a way that reminds me of Stockhausen's ideas about moment form.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

stomanek said:


> Glad you mentioned the 1st mvt of sy 41. It's full of drama - bursting with energy - with an exhilarating flourish at the end. I can never understand why in this sy everybody focuses on the finale and disregard the wonders of the 1st mvt.


I understand the sentiment. I'd guess it's because really great, climactic finales in this era are much rarer than great first movements


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2018)

mmsbls said:


> It's nice to see Eine kleine Nachtmusik discussed positively on TC. I always love hearing it.
> 
> I certainly do not understand technical details of Moment Form, but I do enjoy the seemingly momentary appearance and disappearance of motifs in modern works such as Stockhausen's Gruppen and Boulez's Sur incises. I find myself delighting in the short bursts of varying timbres that pop up "out of nowhere." I would also describe my listening as "being in the present moment as each musical idea is conveyed through sound" although I doubt I recognize relationships between moments as you might.


Coming back to this, and thinking a little more about it............

Yes I think the short bursts, the gestures and colours that come to the fore are like a bit like an intricate web of idea in Boulez's _Sur Incises_. I also love how things tend to pop up out of nowhere, and this is a quality I particularly love about Mozart as well.

As to the last part of your post: particularly in _Moment Form_ I think there is sometimes a point to avoid audible relationships between each moment of music in favour of simply presenting music of a variety of characters, gestures, phrases as they come. There's a kind of spontaneity about it, I think.


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