# What's Mozart's most ingenious Piano Sonata?



## Wolfgangus the Great (Jan 4, 2022)

So, yeah! Which Piano Sonata by Mozart is the most compositionally deep?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Wolfgangus the Great (Jan 4, 2022)

hammeredklavier said:


>


I meant solo piano sonata lol.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Wolfgangus the Great said:


> I meant solo piano sonata lol.


but he's right.

the last movement of K.497 is incredible.


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## Wolfgangus the Great (Jan 4, 2022)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> but he's right.
> 
> the last movement of k.497 is incredible.


Yes, but he didn't really answer my question.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Wolfgangus the Great said:


> Yes, but he didn't really answer my question.


Yes he did. The problem is that you didn't really ask the right question.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Wolfgangus the Great said:


> I meant solo piano sonata lol.


In that case, I'd think along the lines of: 


hammeredklavier said:


> http://musicstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Popovic_JIMS_0932106.pdf#page=9
> 
> 
> 
> ...





hammeredklavier said:


> Think of the upward steps and download leaps this way:
> match the parts in blue in the Wagner with the parts in blue in the Mozart,
> and the parts in red in the Wagner with the parts in red in the Mozart.
> There are some differences in rhythm and scale degrees, but the gestural similarities are undeniable.
> ...


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Without a doubt to me it's K. 533. There's too much made of his minor key sonatas as precursors to Beethoven. More contrapuntal, more dissonant harmonizations, and less of his usual tricks.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I'd go with K 331, for obvious reasons.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ingenious is an interesting concept. I’m going to propose a sonata for four hands - K 448. There’s a recorded performance of this with Menno van Delft and Artem Belogurov, they use a piano and a harpsichord, and the different timbres reveal very clearly the way the musicians interact. Ingenious is precisely the word.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I'd go with K 331, for obvious reasons.


Me also. The 1st movement (theme and variations) is drop-dead gorgeous while the other 2 movements are also compelling.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I thought ringtone adaptability was the obvious reason for K 331


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## Wolfgangus the Great (Jan 4, 2022)

Phil loves classical said:


> Without a doubt to me it's K. 533. There's too much made of his minor key sonatas as precursors to Beethoven. More contrapuntal, more dissonant harmonizations, and less of his usual tricks.


What usual tricks are you talking about? I would say Fantasia and Sonata in C Minor is the greatest.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Wolfgangus the Great said:


> What usual tricks are you talking about?


I can't speak for Phil, but some of Mozart's usual tricks included the Alberti base, scales, and generally giving all the importance to the right hand. In fairness to Mozart, as I've written before, he was compelled to write for the market, and the market was demanding piano sonatas in the flavor of JC Bach. There's a great youtube video where a musician discusses the likely influence that Clementi had on Mozart during the last years of his life. If only Mozart had lived a little longer...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

vtpoet said:


> some of Mozart's usual tricks included the Alberti base, scales, and generally giving all the importance to the right hand.


This is the sort of fallacy people like Gould indulged in, which (imv) 'The Independent Pianist' rebutted thoroughly. 










> he was compelled to write for the market


So, do you agree with the statement: "Mozart was a crowd-pleaser in his time, thus he was just not that "great" compared to the likes of B. Ferneyhough, for example."



> If only Mozart had lived a little longer...


Here's another interesting "what-if": if Mozart kept working for Colloredo, like his senior colleague... He would have churned out stuff like...




(Considering that you're a Bach enthusiast, I'm just guessing this is what you want from Mozart, ie. what you wish he did)


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

K457 in C Minor


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Wolfgangus the Great said:


> What usual tricks are you talking about?


I mean, face it; the "Golden Age of Music" was over, by the time the "Offender" Mozart came along. Here's how the Masters of the GAoM went about doing things (ie. how their families "dazzled each other with contrapuntal mastery"): https://www.npr.org/sections/decept.../148769794/why-i-hate-the-goldberg-variations
"Just look at the bouncy, boisterous, leaping first variation, with its clever crossing of hands. Then (why not) head over to the leaping eighth variation, with the hands arpeggiating over each other, and its bouncy boisterous triads, and the wonderful eleventh variation, in which (shockingly!) the hands charmingly criss-cross and leap, or number fourteen ... You get the idea. There is a surfeit of virtuosic, humorous leaping."
"The capstone of these is the Quodlibet, with its good humor and generosity of spirit, reenacting (so they say) Bach family parties where they would mash up various tunes, dazzle each other with contrapuntal mastery. Now, the words of the tunes are perhaps jokes, references that we can probably no longer get; everyone has their own idea what it all means."
Listen to these Buxtehude variations: 



 No Alberti bass over 30 minutes... wow!... ingenious!...


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## Wolfgangus the Great (Jan 4, 2022)

hammeredklavier said:


> I mean, face it; the "Golden Age of Music" was over, by the time the "Offender" Mozart came along. Here's how the Masters of the GAoM went about doing things (ie. how their families "dazzled each other with contrapuntal mastery"): https://www.npr.org/sections/decept.../148769794/why-i-hate-the-goldberg-variations
> "Just look at the bouncy, boisterous, leaping first variation, with its clever crossing of hands. Then (why not) head over to the leaping eighth variation, with the hands arpeggiating over each other, and its bouncy boisterous triads, and the wonderful eleventh variation, in which (shockingly!) the hands charmingly criss-cross and leap, or number fourteen ... You get the idea. There is a surfeit of virtuosic, humorous leaping."
> "The capstone of these is the Quodlibet, with its good humor and generosity of spirit, reenacting (so they say) Bach family parties where they would mash up various tunes, dazzle each other with contrapuntal mastery. Now, the words of the tunes are perhaps jokes, references that we can probably no longer get; everyone has their own idea what it all means."
> Listen to these Buxtehude variations:
> ...


This legitimately got a few chuckles out of me lol. But I agree with you. I just get really triggered when people say 'pErFeCt CaDeNcE, aLbErTi BasS, MoZaRt BaD'.


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## Wolfgangus the Great (Jan 4, 2022)

vtpoet said:


> I can't speak for Phil, but some of Mozart's usual tricks included the Alberti base, scales, and generally giving all the importance to the right hand. In fairness to Mozart, as I've written before, he was compelled to write for the market, and the market was demanding piano sonatas in the flavor of JC Bach. There's a great youtube video where a musician discusses the likely influence that Clementi had on Mozart during the last years of his life. If only Mozart had lived a little longer...


Next time you want to respond to me, think about what you write first instead of answering me in this absolute drivel of a response.

To claim someone like Mozart, an absolute stubborn sun of a gun, would waste time with a bunch of aristocratic fatsos and dilettantes like the Emperor.

Mozart of course needed to make money. He did need to make his concerts and compositions sell. So did Beethoven! That's why some of Mozart's piano concerti and sonatas aren't as unconventional, inventive, crazy, off the cuff, and brilliant as the Quintets or the Quartets and some of the other works.

Not saying that the concerti and sonatas are trite. Because they're simply not! The concerti and sonatas are amazing pieces of musical literature. They can too get inventive as well.

Clementi influencing Mozart??


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

vtpoet said:


> I can't speak for Phil, but some of Mozart's usual tricks included the Alberti base, scales, and generally giving all the importance to the right hand. In fairness to Mozart, as I've written before, he was compelled to write for the market, and the market was demanding piano sonatas in the flavor of JC Bach. There's a great youtube video where a musician discusses the likely influence that Clementi had on Mozart during the last years of his life. If only Mozart had lived a little longer...


Clementi's sonatas make very little musical sense. I have listened to his best sonatas - he honestly deserves to be a bit more obscure than he is and I do not think Mozart had much regard for him. He borrowed a couple of bars from one sonata for his magic flute overture but ignored him otherwise as far as I know. The rest of what you write just means you don't have an appreciation for the piano sonatas. If Mozart was as formulaic as you say - how do you explain that his sonatas are championed by the great pianists of the last 100 years and why do those same pianists ignore JC Bach and Clementi?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

PlaySalieri said:


> He borrowed a couple of bars from one sonata for his magic flute overture


I think too much a "fuss"* has been made about that too; to me, it just seems more like a generic Classical period gesture. 



. It was Clementi who tried to emulate Mozart (in Musical Characteristics, Op.19) and wrote piano transcriptions of Mozart works (eg. the overture and K.608) and made money off them.
When I listen to 



, I feel it is unmistakably the inspiration for "Ein Mädchen oder Weibchen". But when I listen to Clementi Op.24 No.2, I feel the "fuss"* is just too much.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Wolfgangus the Great said:


> What usual tricks are you talking about? I would say Fantasia and Sonata in C Minor is the greatest.


I believe Mozart wrote so prolifically he had certain go-to's, but where he changes some tunes and phrases here and there, but 'say' the same/similar thing by similar building around chords, and some of his progressions also become predictable. K. 533 is one I think he obviously deviated more from his usual approaches.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> K. 533 is one I think he obviously deviated from his usual approaches.






 (~0:41)
the dissonance (F, Db, Bb) that resolves to V7, and the treatment of the minor second (A, Bb) dissonances, which "stick out" in the broader context of the major second (Bb, C) dissonances.




 (~1:36)
gorgeous part-writing.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

https://www.cmpcp.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/PSN2011_Chueke.pdf
"Written between May and June 1785, Mozart C minor Fantasy KV 475 is a perfect illustration example of what Brahms had in mind when proclaiming Mozart as "a fellow modernist." [...] 
The very first intriguing aspect we encounter is the non-establishment of any specific tonality, due to the absence not only of a key signature but also of a central tonality which would justify the allusion to C minor in the title. The same can be said about any of the numerous other tonalities suggested during the piece: none of them is sufficiently present to the point of being considered the tonic key. Mozart himself had done something similar, but not as daring as in the Fantasy - probably because the genre suggests more liberty of expression -, in his String Quartet in C Major, KV465; Ligeti calls our attention to the fact that although the initial Adagio begins with a C played by the cello, the tonality of C Major will only be listened twenty two measures later at the beginning of the Allegro. Nevertheless, in both cases, this non definition doesn't eliminate a perfectly sequenced and coherent listening experience, which is conducted by other elements of cohesion perfectly combined. [...]
Through the Fantasy's musical discourse, the confirmation of C minor as the main key is held until the end of the piece, justifying the term "musical plot"; the "mystery" will be solved only at the end, like in his operas. [...]
Yes, the missing tonality was in fact C minor; "atonality" is of course not justified, but it was certainly hinted…Adorno's « hegemony of tonality» remains and Mozart's acquisitions anticipate those of Wagner, transforming musical language « only indirectly, by means of the amplification of the tonal space and not through its abolition»"

The exposition (1:46) is developed in the Andantino (5:33). 
Take note of the enharmonic (1:16), and the chromatic mediant modulation (2:07).




(Schubert wrote D.993 based on this work btw)


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> I think too much a "fuss"* has been made about that too; to me, it just seems more like a generic Classical period gesture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


true - and unfortunately Mozart haters on youtube do make the biggest fuss.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, I don't know about the sonatas, but Don Giovanni.s descent into hell is pretty much as igneous as you can get . . . oh . . .


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

MarkW said:


> Well, I don't know about the sonatas, but Don Giovanni.s descent into hell is pretty much as igneous as you can get . . . oh . . .


Yes but Mozart haters only ever cite K545 eine kleine etc and they top it off with - Oh - if only Mozart had lived longer!


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> This is the sort of fallacy people like Gould indulged in, which (imv) 'The Independent Pianist' rebutted thoroughly.


Based on these two Youtube extracts that are, at best, remotely related to my own, I get the sense that you want to relitigate some unrelated themes that have been giving you a rash?



hammeredklavier said:


> So, do you agree with the statement: "Mozart was a crowd-pleaser in his time, thus he was just not that "great" compared to the likes of B. Ferneyhough, for example."


LOL. I mean, seriously? Just say what you want to say.



hammeredklavier said:


> Here's another interesting "what-if": if Mozart kept working for Colloredo, like his senior colleague... He would have churned out stuff like...
> 
> 
> 
> Considering that you're a Bach enthusiast, I'm just guessing this is what you want from Mozart, ie. what you wish he did)


That's quite the straw man. Need a match?


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

PlaySalieri said:


> true - and unfortunately Mozart haters on youtube do make the biggest fuss.


Wait. So now I'm a "Mozart hater"? Because I wrote that his late piano pieces may have been influenced by Clementi? And for wishing he had lived longer? That makes me a Mozart hater?



For anyone interested in more than the second grade level commentary on my comment (evinced by HK and others) here's the video I had in mind. It's quite a good discussion of the ways Clementi might have influenced Mozart:


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

PlaySalieri said:


> Clementi's sonatas make very little musical sense. I have listened to his best sonatas - he honestly deserves to be a bit more obscure than he is and I do not think Mozart had much regard for him. He borrowed a couple of bars from one sonata for his magic flute overture but ignored him otherwise as far as I know. The rest of what you write just means you don't have an appreciation for the piano sonatas. If Mozart was as formulaic as you say - how do you explain that his sonatas are championed by the great pianists of the last 100 years and why do those same pianists ignore JC Bach and Clementi?


One straw man after another. Suffice it to say that none of what you've written in any way reflects what I wrote or think about Mozart, Clementi or their sonatas. But this is the way communicating online goes. 'A' makes a comment that 'B' doesn't like (for whatever reason) so 'B' imputes on 'A' positions that are prima facie absurd so that 'B' can dismissively posture with their cartoonish rhetorical high ground. All this flurry of positioning rather than simply ask for a friendly clarification... SMH...


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

vtpoet said:


> Wait. So now I'm a "Mozart hater"? Because I wrote that his late piano pieces may have been influenced by Clementi? And for wishing he had lived longer? That makes me a Mozart hater?
> 
> 
> 
> For anyone interested in more than the second grade level commentary on my comment (evinced by HK and others) here's the video I had in mind. It's quite a good discussion of the ways Clementi might have influenced Mozart:


I was talking about people who accuse Mozart of plagiarism over his magic flute theme. But anyway why did you come onto this thread? What are Mozart's most ingenious sonatas? If you cannot answer that question frankly why are you here? You also did not answer my points. Why do the great pianists of the 20THC have an almost unrivalled reverence for Mozart. Apart from John Ogdon and a few others - all the masters were keen to leave behind a recorded legacy of the sonatas and nobody as far as I know said it's a shame he did not live longer. I have not watched the Clementi video but I will. Mozart was smart enough to learn from composers all across Europe - and given that Clementi was one of the major names in the 18thC - it does not surprise me. But neither does it prove anything about the standard of mozart's sonatas.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

vtpoet said:


> One straw man after another. Suffice it to say that none of what you've written in any way reflects what I wrote or think about Mozart, Clementi or their sonatas. But this is the way communicating online goes. 'A' makes a comment that 'B' doesn't like (for whatever reason) so 'B' imputes on 'A' positions that are prima facie absurd so that 'B' can dismissively posture with their cartoonish rhetorical high ground. All this flurry of positioning rather than simply ask for a friendly clarification... SMH...


What do you think of Mozart's piano sonatas?

I'm not expecting a reply to this question but surprise me.

Maybe you will be constructive as all you have said is that Mozart used his tricks of the trade to write sonatas to popular taste - something one cannot blame him for as he had to make a living. You have also pointed out a video claiming that Clementi influenced Mozart.

If Mozart had lived longer - as you said - what do you hope he would have achieved? Why do you say - if only Mozart had lived longer?


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

PlaySalieri said:


> What do you think of Mozart's piano sonatas?


They grow on me. For many years I considered them the weakest of Mozart's output, along with his liturgical music. But recent recordings by Bezuidenhout and Lubimov on the pianoforte have changed my mind, especially Bezuidenhout. I've come to think that the modern piano really doesn't do the pieces justice. As HK's Youtube extract from Levin's lecture points out, one must always distort and underplay Mozart on the modern grand. HK and I are in agreement as far as that goes. In fairness, the right performances of Mozart's liturgical works might bring me around. By way of comparison, the first time I heard Bach's cantatas performed with OVPP [One Voice Per Part] was when I truly fell in love with all of Bach's cantatas and liturgical works.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

PlaySalieri said:


> I was talking about people who accuse Mozart of plagiarism over his magic flute theme.


According to my reading of the contest between Mozart and Clementi, the "Magic Flute" theme wasn't actually by Clementi but was a theme provided to both Mozart and Clementi to improvise on. Clementi later wrote down his improvisation. Mozart didn't. However, one might speculate that some of Mozart's improvisation made its way into the overture.



PlaySalieri said:


> But anyway why did you come onto this thread? What are Mozart's most ingenious sonatas? If you cannot answer that question frankly why are you here?


Remind me again who made you the moderator?



PlaySalieri said:


> You also did not answer my points. Why do the great pianists of the 20THC have an almost unrivalled reverence for Mozart. Apart from John Ogdon and a few others - all the masters were keen to leave behind a recorded legacy of the sonatas and nobody as far as I know said it's a shame he did not live longer.


Your question is rhetorical and being asked in bad faith. Why indulge in that sort of posturing? If you have point to make, then make it.



PlaySalieri said:


> I have not watched the Clementi video but I will. Mozart was smart enough to learn from composers all across Europe - and given that Clementi was one of the major names in the 18thC - it does not surprise me. But neither does it prove anything about the standard of mozart's sonatas.


I mean, JHC. You haven't even watched the video [which in no way attempts to be conclusive] and you feel compelled to pompously assert that it doesn't "prove anything". I don't know who you're arguing with, but it's not me.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

vtpoet said:


> According to my reading of the contest between Mozart and Clementi, the "Magic Flute" theme wasn't actually by Clementi but was a theme provided to both Mozart and Clementi to improvise on. Clementi later wrote down his improvisation. Mozart didn't. However, one might speculate that some of Mozart's improvisation made its way into the overture.
> 
> Remind me again who made you the moderator?
> 
> ...


Have you actually heard the Clementi "magic flute" sonata? It is only a few bars. It comes and goes - then exactly note for note the same appears once or twice along with many other unrelated ideas.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

PlaySalieri said:


> Have you actually heard the Clementi "magic flute" sonata? It is only a few bars. It comes and goes - then exactly note for note the same appears once or twice along with many other unrelated ideas.


Yes. I play it from time to time. It's too bad Mozart never wrote down his improvisation. Would be interesting to know if he integrated the theme more thoroughly than Clementi. Probably, but that's speculation.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

vtpoet said:


> Yes. I play it from time to time. It's too bad Mozart never wrote down his improvisation. *Would be interesting to know if he integrated the theme more thoroughly than Clementi.* Probably, but that's speculation.


That wouldn't be saying much


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

vtpoet said:


> here's the video I had in mind. It's quite a good discussion of the ways Clementi might have influenced Mozart:


You're seriously quoting Wim Winters? Don't tell me you also believe his "double beat theory"!


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

PlaySalieri said:


> That wouldn't be saying much


?...................


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> You're seriously quoting Wim Winters? Don't tell me you also believe his "double beat theory"!


Are you familiar with the Logical Fallacy called "Poisoning the Well"? Your comment is an example. I mean, there's really no response to logical fallacies except to point them out.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

vtpoet said:


> ?...................


Nobody knows how the theme presented to Mozart and Clementi was improvised. I am sure though that Clementi must have done more with it than he does in his sonata.

In Clementi's sonata you hear the theme and think - wow! What's he going to do with that - and the answer is - not much.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

PlaySalieri said:


> Nobody knows how the theme presented to Mozart and Clementi was improvised.


Except that that's precisely what some musical scholars argue: Clementi's sonata is indeed what he improvised. It's possible he touched it up but why wouldn't he?

On the other hand, I've read other accounts that contradict this:

"Though Clementi noted in subsequent publications of his sonata that it had been written ten years before Mozart's opera-presumably to make clear who was borrowing from whom-Clementi retained an admiration for Mozart, as reflected in the large number of transcriptions he made of Mozart's music, among which is a piano solo version of the Magic Flute overture. "

Since the competition was almost 10 years before the Magic Flute, this doesn't in itself mean it wasn't what Clementi improvised. But it's not a hill I'm willing to die on. I'll let the historians sort that out.

I also never asserted that Clementi's sonata is a masterpiece, so I'm not sure why you're putting so much emphasis on this?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

It seems very reduced to discuss the relation between Clementi and Mozart mostly with respect to that commonplace bit of a theme. To my knowledge Mozart as a player was probably inferior to Clementi (that's why he called him a "mere mechanicus", there would be no point in such a denigration, if Clementi had not been "mechanically" better). I have seen claims that Clementi was a very important influence on Beethoven, although I am not sure if this is a bit exaggerated, there are some Clementi pieces that sound a bit like between Scarlatti and Beethoven. In any case, it seems that Clementi had the more "modern" style at the time and he was of course very successful later on in England.
It's been a while that I listened to them but I have a few recordings of Clementi and I think I liked especially Demidenko's on hyperion. It's pretty good music and certainly does not deserve PlaySalieri's scorn. I am bit surprised that champions of Salieri or Michael Haydn should go out of their way to claim how bad Clementi is.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Kreisler jr said:


> It seems very reduced to discuss the relation between Clementi and Mozart mostly with respect to that commonplace bit of a theme. To my knowledge Mozart as a player was probably inferior to Clementi (that's why he called him a "mere mechanicus", there would be no point in such a denigration, if Clementi had not been "mechanically" better). I have seen claims that Clementi was a very important influence on Beethoven, although I am not sure if this is a bit exaggerated, there are some Clementi pieces that sound a bit like between Scarlatti and Beethoven. In any case, it seems that Clementi had the more "modern" style at the time and he was of course very successful later on in England.
> It's been a while that I listened to them but I have a few recordings of Clementi and I think I liked especially Demidenko's on hyperion. It's pretty good music and certainly does not deserve PlaySalieri's scorn. I am bit surprised that champions of Salieri or Michael Haydn should go out of their way to claim how bad Clementi is.


I think Clementi probably was a greater virtuosos than Mozart - after all Mozart was a far more productive composer, had duties in Salzburg and he also played the violin to a high standard - meaning less time for practice. But in all probability he played with more finesse and feeling than Clementi. 
I am certainly no champion of Salieri. Him and Clementi are 3rd rate for the era. Michael Haydn was more interesting - his requiem is excellent and on the whole I think he was better than those two but not as good as his brother. 
Perhaps I have missed something in Clementi and maybe one day I will change my mind - but not on the basis of what I have heard so far.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

About Clementi in this thread, I only said there's too much a fuss about the borrowing of a motif of Clementi by Mozart (which I find to be a rather generic Classical period gesture, found in Mozart's K.339). I haven't commented on Clementi's compositional prowess. The reason why Mozart thought Clementi's style was dry was because Mozart based his style more on the harpsichord-playing tradition (where all unslurred notes had to be "detached"), whereas Clementi based his more on Legato. I don't think Clementi was a poor composer by any means, but keep in mind the same reasoning "the greatness of a composer is determined by his playing technique and its influence" can be used in favor of Liszt or Alkan, for instance.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

A fine sonata, although the handling of the form feels slightly clunky to me, if you ask me (the "Largo" in the middle of the first movement).

If you would rate it more highly than any of Mozart's, by all means, go ahead.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> About Clementi in this thread, I only said there's too much a fuss about the borrowing of a motif of Clementi by Mozart (which I find to be a rather generic Classical period gesture, found in Mozart's K.339). I haven't commented on Clementi's compositional prowess. The reason why Mozart thought Clementi's style was dry was because Mozart based his style more on the harpsichord-playing tradition (where all unsulurred notes had to be "detached"), whereas Clementi based his style more on Legato. *I don't think Clementi was a poor composer by any means, but keep in mind the same reasoning "a composer is great because of his playing technique" can be used in favor of Liszt or Alkan, for instance.*


I dont think anyone said or implied that - dont leave yourself open to accusations of strawmanning. I dont even think anyone on the board thinks Clementi was a great composer but I am probably one of the few on here who think he had no compositional talent at all. His works are - workmanlike.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

PlaySalieri said:


> I dont think anyone said or implied that - dont leave yourself open to accusations of strawmanning. I dont even think anyone on the board thinks Clementi was a great composer but I am probably one of the few on here who think he had no compositional talent at all. His works are - workmanlike.


I wouldn't account Clementi a great composer or a better composer than Mozart, but elements of his pianistic style clearly anticipated the future more so than Mozart's. Clementi's musical language started out like Mozart (and Kozeluch's) but evolved into a language that seemed closer to Beethoven's. Mozart's style probably would have changed as well and the video that I posted earlier, in my view, nicely examines some of that.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Whatever. Flashy techniques are all great, but this is the sort of stuff I value more:













"Wagner, according to Cosima, considered Mozart a "grosser Chromatiker.""
https://books.google.ca/books?id=x7jADwAAQBAJ&pg=PA291


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

vtpoet said:


> I wouldn't account Clementi a great composer or a better composer than Mozart, but elements of his pianistic style clearly anticipated the future more so than Mozart's. Clementi's musical language started out like Mozart (and Kozeluch's) but evolved into a language that seemed closer to Beethoven's. Mozart's style probably would have changed as well and the video that I posted earlier, in my view, nicely examines some of that.


I will bow to your greater knowledge - since you play and I do not. But Clementi - and other daring pioneers at the cutting edge like CPE Bach - lacked the strengths which make Mozart the premier composer of that era.


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## Wolfgangus the Great (Jan 4, 2022)

PlaySalieri said:


> I will bow to your greater knowledge - since you play and I do not. But Clementi - and other daring pioneers at the cutting edge like CPE Bach - lacked the strengths which make Mozart the premier composer of that era.


Quiet you! C.P.E Bach is amazing!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> I am a bit surprised that champions of Michael Haydn...


It depends on what things we exactly "champion" and there's nothing to be surprised about. The thing I "champion" about him is the facts about his fundamental harmonic style and its relation to Mozart's (which goes beyond mere superficial borrowing of "themes"). For instance, there's nothing from C.P.E. Bach or Clementi or anyone else that reminds of the restless chromatic bassline and part-writing of the opening of K.491 as 



 (1772) does. There would have been dozens of other variants Mozart could have chosen as the fugal subject for Die Zauberflote overture. Stuff like that doesn't really make up for significant a building block of language as the above example does, for instance.



> It's pretty good music and certainly does not deserve PlaySalieri's scorn.


I have no idea what "good music that does not deserve anyone's scorn" is.



> I have seen claims that Clementi was a very important influence on Beethoven


Has anyone denied that fact about Clementi by saying things like "No. The Real Father of Beethoven had always been...". Why do you assume everyone here thinks Beethoven is good, and this leads to them thinking Clementi is also good? (This thread has been derailed enough already by vtpoet.)
Again, it's up to you to decide subjectively Clementi is better music than Mozart.


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## Gargamel (Jan 5, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> I believe Mozart wrote so prolifically he had certain go-to's, but where he changes some tunes and phrases here and there, but 'say' the same/similar thing by similar building around chords, and some of his progressions also become predictable. K. 533 is one I think he obviously deviated more from his usual approaches.


Seconded. The number of ways he twists around the first theme in such a short span of time is quite breathtaking, more ingenious than the usual favorites, such as the lyrically flowing K 330 (No. 10) or the "Sturm und drang" 332 (No. 12). And the second movement feels like it's just a continuation, rather than a separate movement. (You could probably stick it in the middle of the first movement and it wouldn't feel out of place.)


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Wolfgangus the Great said:


> Quiet you! C.P.E Bach is amazing!


How is he amazing?


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## Wolfgangus the Great (Jan 4, 2022)

PlaySalieri said:


> How is he amazing?


1. His music is beautiful.
2. His music is cutting edge.
3. His music is unpredictable.
4. His music is highly original.
5. He revolutionized keyboard playing.
6. His fantasies are some of the wildest musical creations of some of the most extraordinary power in the musical language.


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## Wolfgangus the Great (Jan 4, 2022)

PlaySalieri said:


> How is he amazing?


"We may no longer do as he does, but without him we may do nothing!"
-Ludwig van Beethoven

"He is the father and we're the children"
-Mozart


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Wolfgangus the Great said:


> 1. His music is beautiful.
> 2. His music is cutting edge.
> 3. His music is unpredictable.
> 4. His music is highly original.
> ...


check out the thread HK just posted and see if you can name any of those excerpts


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2022)

Wolfgangus the Great said:


> This legitimately got a few chuckles out of me lol. But I agree with you. I just get really triggered when people say 'pErFeCt CaDeNcE, aLbErTi BasS, MoZaRt BaD'.


Take the rest of the week off!!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2022)

Wolfgangus the Great said:


> 1. His music is beautiful.
> 2. His music is cutting edge.
> 3. His music is unpredictable.
> 4. His music is highly original.
> ...


Hardly cutting edge, except for those wonderful operas and string quartets.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Christabel said:


> Hardly cutting edge, except for those wonderful operas and string quartets.


He is talking about why CPE Bach is great, not Mozart.


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## Wolfgangus the Great (Jan 4, 2022)

Christabel said:


> Hardly cutting edge, except for those wonderful operas and string quartets.


lol, even if we are talking about cutting edge, then why wouldn't this description fit Mozart?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Wolfgangus the Great said:


> lol, even if we are talking about cutting edge, then why wouldn't this description fit Mozart?


Frankly I would have thought K466 is cutting edge if anything is. Listening to other composers piano concertos for that era they sound primitive by comparison.


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

Can't be bothered to find it now but I read that Beethoven said something like - if you study Clementi, you will also already understand Mozart, whereas if you study all of Mozart, you will still not understand Clementi - i.e. Clementi is the more sophisticated composer...

This performance of Clementi's E Minor Capriccio is probably my favorite recording of any solo piano work of classical or romantic composers.

I think Mozart might be more conducive than Clementi to certain types of score-analysis/music-criticism which were being popularized shortly after his death. Or maybe Clementi just lived in the wrong place to be remembered as a Great.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

^It's also hard to compare them cause Clementi lived up to the 1820s and wrote stuff like




which anticipates stuff like Chopin Op.10 No.6. He's more like Moscheles, Hummel, Cramer in that respect. Clementi was irrelevant to the thread topic in the first place. Other than being a contemporary of Mozart for 35 years, and one or two instances of anecdotes, there's no real relation between them whatsoever. Why not bring up J.L. Dussek too?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

cheregi said:


> Can't be bothered to find it now but I read that Beethoven said something like - if you study Clementi, you will also already understand Mozart, whereas if you study all of Mozart, you will still not understand Clementi - i.e. Clementi is the more sophisticated composer...
> 
> This performance of Clementi's E Minor Capriccio is probably my favorite recording of any solo piano work of classical or romantic composers.
> 
> I think Mozart might be more conducive than Clementi to certain types of score-analysis/music-criticism which were being popularized shortly after his death. Or maybe Clementi just lived in the wrong place to be remembered as a Great.


Supposing it is true (which I doubt) - it does not mean that Beethoven thought Clementi's sonatas are better or more sophisticated. It just means Beethoven thought that Clementi covered more ground than Mozart. But in the limited world Mozart's sonatas occupied compared to Clementi - he scaled much loftier heights in my opinion and it seems - in the opinion of the bulk of posterity.

Frankly we also do not know to what extent Beethoven knew Mozart's piano music. I mean Clementi never composed, as far as I know, anything anywhere near the level of the fantasy K475 - I would find it incomprehensible for Beethoven to know this work and make that statement.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

vtpoet said:


> but elements of his pianistic style clearly anticipated the future more so than Mozart's.


Look at this, 



 this was an aspect of the "future" from Mozart's perspective. But was it entirely, objectively an "improvement" from Mozart? 
"Anticipated the future" is a vague expression that shouldn't be overused without proper explanation or discretion. 
You see this was a nice thread discussing features in certain Mozart works (and the way they inspired other composers) , until you brought up an irrelevant composer, and started pointless attacks on a general period style (the use of Alberti bass, scales, trill cadences in the late 18th century; the sort of argument people who "don't understand how they brought about the use of enlarged harmonic space and textural contrast to enhance expression" resort to).



> Clementi's musical language started out like Mozart (and Kozeluch's) but evolved into a language that seemed closer to Beethoven's.


How? Where do we find in Clementi or Kozeluch, the fluidity and expressive harshness of minor/major seconds stemming from linear motion like




or




"There is something Tristanesque avant la lettre about the opening vertical sonority of the Adagio; and in fact, three of its four notes (E-sharp, B, G-sharp) are enharmonically identical to the so-called Tristan chord, even in their register. As in Tristan und Isolde, the dissonance of this initial descends here rather than rising, as in Wagner's opera. The composer of Tristan greatly admired Mozart, particularly his works in the minor, and regarded him as "der große Chromatiker"- a quality that undoubtedly inspired Wagner." [ Mozart's Piano Music , William Kinderman , P. 35 ]


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

cheregi said:


> Can't be bothered to find it now but I read that Beethoven said something like - if you study Clementi, you will also already understand Mozart, whereas if you study all of Mozart, you will still not understand Clementi - i.e. Clementi is the more sophisticated composer...
> 
> This performance of Clementi's E Minor Capriccio is probably my favorite recording of any solo piano work of classical or romantic composers.
> 
> I think Mozart might be more conducive than Clementi to certain types of score-analysis/music-criticism which were being popularized shortly after his death.* Or maybe Clementi just lived in the wrong place to be remembered as a Great.*


or maybe his music just did not make the lasting impression that Mozart's music made. Given that he lived into old age and had a 35 year advantage on Mozart - that's not good.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I just listened to the Clementi E Minor Cappriccio

rambling piece

come on now guys - find me something by Clementi to change my opinion.


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## Wolfgangus the Great (Jan 4, 2022)

cheregi said:


> Can't be bothered to find it now but I read that Beethoven said something like - if you study Clementi, you will also already understand Mozart, whereas if you study all of Mozart, you will still not understand Clementi - i.e. Clementi is the more sophisticated composer...
> 
> This performance of Clementi's E Minor Capriccio is probably my favorite recording of any solo piano work of classical or romantic composers.
> 
> I think Mozart might be more conducive than Clementi to certain types of score-analysis/music-criticism which were being popularized shortly after his death. Or maybe Clementi just lived in the wrong place to be remembered as a Great.


Either 
A. Beethoven never said that.
B. Beethoven did say that and he was an ***, like Bernstein.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Wolfgangus the Great said:


> Either
> A. Beethoven never said that.
> B. Beethoven did say that and he was an ***, like Bernstein.


many composers are reported to have said lots of odd things - the quotes are not always corroborated - sometimes just a single source which is not historically reliable. Also do not forget that posterity values Mozart much more than they did in the early 19thC - did Beethoven put much value on JS Bach? He seemed to think Handel was a better composer than both Mozart and JS Bach - I think he thought CPE Bach was better than JS. We have the benefit of access to all the recordings and works etc and posterity has had 200 years or so to evaluate Mozart and Clementi - enough to make us realise that if Beethoven did utter those words - we would need to have him here to explain with examples exactly what he means. Maybe we are missing something.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Wolfgangus the Great said:


> Either
> A. Beethoven never said that.
> B. Beethoven did say that and he was an ***, like Bernstein.


Or he was supporting Clementi in needling Mozart, with whom the latter had had a duel (reportedly).


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

PlaySalieri said:


> Supposing it is true (which I doubt) - it does not mean that Beethoven thought Clementi's sonatas are better or more sophisticated. It just means Beethoven thought that Clementi covered more ground than Mozart. But in the limited world Mozart's sonatas occupied compared to Clementi - he scaled much loftier heights in my opinion and it seems - in the opinion of the bulk of posterity.
> 
> Frankly we also do not know to what extent Beethoven knew Mozart's piano music. I mean Clementi never composed, as far as I know, anything anywhere near the level of the fantasy K475 - I would find it incomprehensible for Beethoven to know this work and make that statement.


Yes. Which great works did each great composer know back then. I'd like to see an estimated list. 

It would be interesting to know about the many works that Bach knew, -- Mozart and the earlier fugues, and the LVB works for Schubert and Chopin. And surely what Beethoven could have accessed.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It took me a long time to make a choice for the best. I love them all and yet I'm not sure any of them stand out - as the best or the least good - from the rest for me. But K 533 would probably be the one I'd pick. And then there is the Fantasia K 475.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> but he's right.
> 
> the last movement of K.497 is incredible.


Can I say K475 as well please


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

This one is the most ingenious, because if it's really of Mozart, then it's a composition of a 9 years old.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> Can I say K475 as well please


The 475 and the Sonata were conceived separately but published together. They seemed to go together.

PHILADELPHIA (AP) _ An accountant looking through an old safe at a Baptist seminary has found a lost manuscript of two famous Mozart piano works.
″I thought, gee, this couldn’t be real, these are in an archive in the Louvre or somewhere in a museum,″ Judy DiBona said Tuesday.
The 14-page original manuscript of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart’s ″Fantasia in C Minor″ and the ″Sonata in C Minor″ will be auctioned Nov. 21 in London. Sotheby’s auction house said it is worth between $940,000 and $1.4 million.


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