# Mahler Cycle Idea



## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I've been toying around with this idea for some time... How about a Mahler cycle featuring different conductors for each symphony??? Here's the list I have (haven't bought just yet, but plan to):

1: Walter/Columbia
2: Ozawa/Saito Kinen
3: Chailly/Concertgebouw
4: MTT/SFSO
5: Barbirolli/NPO
6: Mitropoulos/Cologne
7: Barenboim/Staatskappelle Berlin
8: Kubelik/SBR
9: Bernstein/Concertgebouw
10: Rattle/BPO

I have three of these already, actually, but have only really listened to one in depth: the 5th under Barbirolli. The other two I have are the 1st (on record) and the 10th (actually the first Mahler CD I ever bought, but never listened to a whole lot because of its very daunting, dark character that I've now gotten over).

Just as long as nobody tells me to get Mehta ever again I'm fine; I've long since given away his atrocious recording of the Second symphony that people somehow think is a "legend"...

Actually, I think it must have inspired me very indirectly to start this little idea. At the time I bought that CD (along with Tilson Thomas' recording of the Second, also quite underwhelming at the time), I was tempted to "close the door," so to speak, on other interpretations than Bernstein's (whose older cycle I own). After hearing Barbirolli, I came to the realization, as it were, that there were plenty of others who could equal (and surpass) Bernstein. And then I read glowing reviews of conductors like Mitropoulos (whose Eighth I was very inspired by), Chailly, Kubelik, Barenboim... so here's what I've come up with. A second chance for MTT (whose latest 3rd and 7th at any rate are disasters) seems like a good idea, too, and besides, the Fourth seems to suit him. I don't know exactly why I put Ozawa on here, but it seems like a very good performance from what I've heard about it.

Anyway, what do you people think?


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## Atabey (Oct 8, 2008)

It is not possible for me to pick one each from many glorious recordings made for each symphony.My recommendations for recordings should be
Kubelik,Abbado(both recordings with CSO and BPO),Scherchen and Bertini for the first.
Klemperer,Mehta (i am sorry,i like it very much.) and Tennstedt for the second.
Chailly,Tennstedt and Kubelik for the third.
Horenstein,Bertini and Kubelik for the fourth.
Barbirolli,Wit,Bertini and Jansons for the fifith.
Abbado,Tennstedt,Kubelik,Neumann and Chailly for the sixth.
Abbado,Bernstein and Rattle for the seventh.
Tennstedt,Bertini and Wit for the eighth.
Klemperer,Barbirolli and Chailly(even if you don't like his interpretation,the orchestral playing itsalf will blow you away.) for the ninth.
Never cared abour reconstructions of the tenth.For adagio i recommend Tennstedt.
For Das Lied von Erde i like Klemperer and Walter very much.If conducting is what matters to you:Tennstedt is as good as the aforementioned but his singers Agnes Baltsa and Klaus König are not up to it (very surprising,i usually admire their work.)

If money is not an issue,i suggest you buy complete cycles by Abbado,Kubelik,Chailly,Haitink,Tennstedt,Bertini and Bernstein.Although i sometimes dislike their ways with some of these symphonies (in Bernstein nearly all of them.) they are respectworthy and unique in their approach and you never know,you may like them.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Atabey, I never really cared much for the 10th reconstructions either, but after all it _is_ music just as much as any other, and it is at least _in part_ by Mahler. I do like the Adagio very much at any rate.

Thanks for your recommendation of Tennstedt. I'm not at all familiar with his Mahler. As for complete sets, I haven't the money for them, but I have the old Bernstein (Sony/Columbia) set, and I very much like it still.

One question for you: have you heard any of Mitropoulos' Mahler recordings? I have already his live recording of the Eighth (on record) and while it has quite a lot of ensemble problems (probably entirely due to the sheer numbers in the ensemble and their collective unfamiliarity with the work), the interpretation underneath is utterly glorious. Why I picked his Sixth to put in this list above all was because I needed him in this list somewhere (made entirely of at least somewhat prominent Mahlerians) and I felt his sense of drama already evident in his Eighth would make the Sixth even more overwhelming.

I suppose I have the Abbado/CSO recording of the First on record. Maybe I'll get my act together and listen to it now you've recommended it to me.

Thanks again!
WV


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I've seen this theme elsewhere... but the proscription against repeats adds an interesting element of challenge. It also makes me aware of the limitations of my only having c. 30 Mahler CDs from which to choose. I'll be a sport and make an effort, though:
Slatkin- St Louis
Mehta- New York
Boulez- New York
Solti- New York
Tennstedt- London Phil
Szell- Cleveland
Abbado- Chicago
Levine- Chicago
Barbirolli- New York
Martinon- Chicago
Lied: Klemperer- (New) Philharmonia

Not being able to double/triple-up on Solti & Tennstedt led to some "second-nuts" choices in 7-8-9. Still, I was able to keep Scherchen- Philly 5 and Lopez-Cobos- Cincy 10 off the list (although I think the latter is undervalued). I have a nice Mitropoulos 6...(NY, again) but it doesn't supersede Szell. (post #600.)


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

Just something I haphazardly put together...

1 - Kubelik / Bavarian Symphony Orchestra
2 - Blomstedt / SFO
3 - Chailly / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
4 - Solti / CSO
5 - Bernstein / Vienna
6 - Haitink / CSO
7 - Abaddo / CSO
8 - Eschenbach / Orchestre de Paris
9 - Rattle / CBSO


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> 2. Mehta- New York


There's a Mehta-New York?


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

opus67 said:


> There's a Mehta-New York?


Yes there is (available directly from the New York Philharmonic). In fact, the presence of this dozen-disc set, I guess, explains many of my choices.

For the record, I've seen it sourced that the musicians of the NYPO voted for the Mehta 2 as the rendition they most wanted to see included in that box. (Take THAT, Mehta hate-uhs.)


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## Atabey (Oct 8, 2008)

Rachovsky said:


> 9 - Rattle / CBSO


Is there a Rattle/CBSO? I thought he recorded it twice;first with Wiener Philharmoniker, a live recording which includes an ordinary interpretation with surprisingly fussy orchestral playing with lots of mistakes, later with Berliner Philharmoniker;a recording that is an improvement over the former in every department.This time Rattle is bit fussy,but his interpretation is personal and full of unique touches,although he is not as intense as i would wish him to be at some points and orchestral playing is marvellous.
I am not aware of a City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra recording.


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> Yes there is (available directly from the New York Philharmonic). In fact, the presence of this dozen-disc set, I guess, explains many of my choices.
> 
> For the record, I've seen it sourced that the musicians of the NYPO voted for the Mehta 2 as the rendition they most wanted to see included in that box. (Take THAT, Mehta hate-uhs.)


Ah. No wonder it didn't show up at Amazon. Is it this one, from 1994?

And thanks for that titbit.


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## Atabey (Oct 8, 2008)

World Violist said:


> Atabey, I never really cared much for the 10th reconstructions either, but after all it _is_ music just as much as any other, and it is at least _in part_ by Mahler. I do like the Adagio very much at any rate.
> 
> Thanks for your recommendation of Tennstedt. I'm not at all familiar with his Mahler. As for complete sets, I haven't the money for them, but I have the old Bernstein (Sony/Columbia) set, and I very much like it still.
> 
> ...


Hi WV,

I see your problem over making this list.That is exactly why i shied away from making it.So many great conductors,so many great performances would go unmentioned if you build this kind of a list.Even in this kind of a recommendation list;i failed to mention Bernard Haitink who is always skillful and wise with Mahler.I did not mention because he never rises to the heights my recommended performances do but also he never falls under being quite good(7/10).

My answer to your question is:No.Unfortunately not.It is incredibly difficult to find recordings of many great conductors in my home country.I buy from Amazon.I enlisted his recordings in my wishlist but the queue is very long.I am also yet to hear Walter's Mahler symphony recordings (other than the 1939 Vienna recording of the ninth for EMI).

You mentioned about the drama Mitropoulos brings to 8th and considering that his 6th would be incredible since he has a very dramatic approach.I thought the same after hearing Bertini's 8th.It is also overwhelmingly dramatic but his 6th is unfortunately disappointing and Solti,the wild theatre-man with endless drama,also failed to impress me in the 6th.

If you like Bernstein's Mahler (i don't to be honest),i think you will like Tennstedt because he is a personal interpreter like him.What i think he possesses and Bernstein lacks is sounding natural.Even when Tennstedt does something completely unorthodox he manages to convince me.To me he was modern day Furtwangler,man of the moment, endless rubato,romantic approach and completely subjective.His greatness is evident not only in his Mahler but also his Beethoven recordings live and stereo with London Philharmonic.Under his baton the little melancholy Schubert had hidden under the sunny melodies of his Ninth,sounds like a life-death matter.What can you expect from a conductor like that in Mahler?You expect him to sound irredeemably dark and he did just that in his complete cycle for EMI.Why did he possess this demons that made music sound this serious,this crushing and overwhelming?One may only guess.I blame his erratic health which prevented him from a violin career,which caused him suffer constant pain throughout his life,which brought him many terrible moments of facing death.The problem with him was that his music making was as erratic as his health was.When he was not at his best,this great conductor had a tendency to turn into a routine kapellmeister or worse.At those moments he used to;underplay the contrasts,have slack tempo and routine phrasing.This is very much evident in his recording of Mahler's fifth.He begins superbly,his first two movements are as inspired as i have ever heard.The third movement is lesser but still convincing.Fourth movement drags to 12 minutes and you would not tell he is a subjective conductor but worse is still to come.The fifth movement,there is no phrasing at all.

Some people claim that Mahlerian is made not born,one is either sympathetic to the feelings that inspired him to write his music or not.I think Abbado crushed those claims.He started as an ordinary Mahlerian,with nothing to inspire but to me he has grown into the finest Mahlerian around with lots of insights in every single Mahler recording he makes.His first with CSO is his first great Mahler recording but it was not going to be his last.

If you are able to afford one set;in my opinion it should be Bertini.His,is the one of the cheapest sets around and also it has the best overall musical quality (tied with Kubelik;tie in interpretations,Kubelik has the better orchestral playing (Bertini's orchesra leaves little to be desired though),Bertini has the better sound quality).However,i must agree that wisest way to collect on limited budget is to go for single recordings rather than sets.

I hope my posts were helpful.
Cheers
A.Atabey


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Atabey said:


> Hi WV,
> 
> I see your problem over making this list.That is exactly why i shied away from making it.So many great conductors,so many great performances would go unmentioned if you build this kind of a list.Even in this kind of a recommendation list;i failed to mention Bernard Haitink who is always skillful and wise with Mahler.I did not mention because he never rises to the heights my recommended performances do but also he never falls under being quite good(7/10).
> 
> ...


Atabey, thanks very much indeed for your posts; they have been immensely helpful to me and very full of insight. And I think you have gained another convert to Tennstedt's Mahler recordings; the EMI box with Tennstedt's Mahler cycle is quite inexpensive indeed (I believe I can buy it a full US$10 cheaper than your recommended Bertini), and so I believe I may well be able to get it soon (and this is not entirely based on your recommendation either, so you know: I found some videos of him conducting Mahler's 8th and it was quite overwhelming). And after all, I've never been one to particularly care about the ensemble and quality of sound and such, as long as the interpretation shines through it all.

As to Mitropoulos' Sixth, I've read about how electrifying and such his performance is, and from quite diverse names as well. I realize it's all subjective and such, entirely based on what one hears rather than what one hears of. But still, I'm guessing it to be quite the Sixth.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

opus67 said:


> Is it this one, from 1994?


No... it was- Excerpted from the incredibly generous liner-notes:

Sunday afternoon, March 7, 1982, 5pm- the 10000th concert of the New York Philharmonic. 
Zubin Mehta- conductor
Kathleen Battle- soprano
Maureen Forrester- contralto
Westminster Choir- Joseph Flummerfelt, director


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> No... it was- Excerpted from the incredibly generous liner-notes:
> 
> Sunday afternoon, March 7, 1982, 5pm- the 10000th concert of the New York Philharmonic.
> Zubin Mehta- conductor
> ...


Oh. Thanks, again.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

For lack of nothing better to do at the moment, I thought I'd bump this 4 year-old thread from TC's archival grave.

The OP's (World Violist) contest has been a relatively easy to-do for twenty years or so. That is, easy and still have an outstanding set of recorded performances. There are a lot of Mahler dogs out there.

It's inevitable that some prominent Mahlerians will be left out. In my case, Solti, Suitner, Nagano, Ormandy.

1. Muti
2. Scherchen
3. Bernstein (Sony)
4. Horenstein
5. Shipway
6. Barbirolli (Philharmonia)
7. Abbado (BPO)
8. Boulez (Staats. Berlin)
9. HvK (BPO, 1st rec.)
10. Harding

*DLVDE Tennstedt


Have at it! List your favorite Mahler cycle with a different conductor for each symphony. *DLVDE is optional. :tiphat:


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I could pick quite a few permutations that wouldn't fail to hit the spot, but for argument's sake I'll run with this:

1/ Kubelik (DG)
2/ Walter (Sony)
3/ Horenstein (UK)
4/ Szell (Sony)
5/ Karajan (DG)
6/ Bernstein (DG)
7/ Sinopoli (DG)
8/ Solti (Decca)
Das Lied/ Klemperer (EMI)
9/ Maderna (BBC)
10/ Rattle (EMI)


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> I could pick quite a few permutations that wouldn't fail to hit the spot, but for argument's sake I'll run with this:
> 
> 1/ Kubelik (DG)
> 2/ Walter (Sony)
> ...


Rattle did two 10s for EMI, EG. I like the latter, the BPO.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Oops - you're correct, Vaneyes - I was referring to the Berlin one as well. Tell us a little about Shipway's 5th, if you would - I've read about this recording once or twice but never heard a forum member mention it before.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> Oops - you're correct, Vaneyes - I was referring to the Berlin one as well. Tell us a little about Shipway's 5th, if you would - I've read about this recording once or twice but never heard a forum member mention it before.


The first time I heard the Shipway M5 it was several if not more years ago via download. I wasn't impressed. The download technology wasn't what it is now, but I didn't realize at the time how it distorted the presentation. Anyway, long story short, I eventually bought a second or third CD reissue. It was, "WOW!" from the first listen. It got even better when I replaced it with the 32-bit remastered CD reissue.

It's a powerful reading, even nosing ahead of Lenny's well-regarded DG M5 with VPO in that regard. Though not a sweet reading, it does not distort. The brass are downright sensible compared to Solti's 70's rec. Give it a try.


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