# R. Strauss or Puccini.............



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Boheme, Turandot, Butterfly, Tosca. Lescaut. Fanciulla. Trittico. etc,

vs

Rosenkavalier. Salome, Elektra, Frau Ohne Schatten, Capriccio. Ariadne. Arabella. Daphne. etc

Both great composers.

Who's your pick? And why?
:tiphat:

Thought this was an interesting pair to do.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Der Rosenkavalier, man! Der Rosenkavalier!










Our Marschalin (Blair) will undoubtedly see to it that you are well castigated for such an oversight.

Gah!!! Etc... indeed!










Oh... by the way... count me as a vote for Strauss.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Der Rosenkavalier, man! Der Rosenkavalier!


I must say Der Rosenkavalier is the Strauss opera I have most difficult to get into.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Der Rosenkavalier, man! Der Rosenkavalier!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you! Remedied.


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## MimiPinson (Jan 2, 2015)

Puccini- the best composer. His music is so moving and I was born to love him.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

MimiPinson said:


> Puccini- the best composer. His music is so moving and I was born to love him.


Welcome to the forum.


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

I really like Salome, but it's Puccini for me. He is the king of the Aria, he wrote the most famous ones in the popular imagination. I also like his use of dramatic pauses in the music. And despite what the snobs think he was a great composer, his music really drives the story.


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## nightscape (Jun 22, 2013)

Strauss. Though, I'm probably not trustworthy as I'm not exactly a huge fan of opera to begin with, but Strauss has acted as a gateway. Salome, Ariadne auf Naxos, Elektra, Der Rosenkavalier....all musical monuments.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

As a lifelong Wagnerian, it was natural for me to get into Strauss, and at a certain age (long ago) I found _Salome_ and _Elektra_ fascinating and exciting. That wore off slowly over the years, and I now find those operas rather shallow and campy, if brilliantly composed. _Rosenkavalier_ never did much for me except for the presentation of the rose scene and the trio; _Ariadne auf Naxos_ is somewhat interesting, though I don't know it well, and I do rather like the mythical/magical atmosphere of _Die Frau ohne Schatten_, maybe because it's a bit Wagnerian. His other operas don't hold my attention.

At the same time, however, I've come to appreciate Puccini more, especially when he isn't tormenting and killing off lovely young women like Manon, Mimi, Butterfly and Liu (_Madama_ _Butterfly_ is just too painfully cruel and I can't bear to listen to it). Puccini is so theatrically effective and emotional that it's easy to overlook the fact that he's simply a brilliant composer quite capable of using harmony and orchestration in unusual and evocative ways. I love listening to the orchestra create atmosphere in _La Fanciulla del West_ and _Turandot_.

So, Puccini for me.


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## soundoftritones (Dec 24, 2014)

Puccini has made a very big mark in the world of opera, and I think that his soaring, light arias are what sets him apart from most other operatic composers of his day and age. I believe he made the biggest contribution to the _bel canto_ style and there's no denying that the melodies of those sopranos give me goosebumps. Perhaps I'm just extremely partial to lovely soprano voices that really suit the roles and express so much emotion. >< Puccini has won my heart over in this poll.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Sorry but Puccini has nothing on Strauss. Strauss is a true master of innate psychology in every single opera he wrote from Salome to Arabella.

Puccini is great but depends too much on melodrama and dramatic conventions to prove his point. Turandot is my favorite opera of his but even that masterpiece has nothing on Rosenkavalier.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Puccini. 

Strauss shined in Salome, Elektra, Ariadne and Die Frau. Between these and (unfortunately) his very late opera Capriccio, his outputs are not very brilliant, though there are quite a number of lovely moments scattered in Arabella, Daphne, Intermezzo and Die ägyptische Helena. 

The outputs of Puccini, on the other hand, are quite consistent in term of quality. He might have struggled here and there a little bit when trying to expand the subject matters in Trittico, Rondine, and La Fanciulla, but these works are as enjoyable as their predecessors IMO.

Off topic for a while, I would bring my favorite Janacek into these, in case someones think that Strauss and Puccini share the operatic monopoly of the early 20th century. After his first breakthrough - Jenufa, his style kept maturing significantly until From the House of the Dead.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Since I only really enjoy Tosca and Turandot I vote Strauss.
not hot on Salome and Elektra, but enjoy the rest.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I can't choose and as there's no penalty on it I voted that way


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Both great but it is Puccini who had better grasp of emotions and theatre and naturally expressed the emotions without too much atonal music style, or when he did especially in Turandot, he did it so effectively that it doesn't alienate. My vote for Puccini.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

they're equal. love them both.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Well, I find that a God-awful pair to choose between, and not because I'm at all torn to choose between two loves.

I think Strauss was by far the better composer of opera, with a much deeper characterization of the Dramatis personæ beyond the mere soap-opera predictable simplistic schtick as found in about all of Puccini.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

PetrB said:


> I think Strauss was by far the better composer of opera, with a much deeper characterization of the Dramatis personæ beyond the mere soap-opera predictable simplistic schtick as found in about all of Puccini.


however, going by _Der Rosenkavalier_ or _Arabella_ it is Strauss' more soap-opera-like.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Love them both. 

Then again, I think I love Puccini a little bit more.

What's about the just about perfect blend of Strauss and Puccini that was "Die Tote Stadt"?.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

moreover, even such Strauss operas as _Salome_ and _Electra_ are in fact soapers all the way, whereas Puccini has nothing of that sort; his operas have more to do with *lofty tragedy*, not soap. Strauss biggest problem is that he always shied from tragedy, thus undermining his own works' grandeur.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I love Puccini. I probably have more recordings of his operas than I do of Verdi... in spite of the far greater number of operas composed by the elder composer. Having said that, I must wholly disagree with Sharik's assessments of both composers... especially with regard to their librettos.

Puccini was notorious for selecting less than brilliant source material for his operas. _Manon Lescaut_ was cobbled together by five different writers from the same text by Abbé Prévost used by Massenet. _La fanciulla del West, La La bohème_, and _Madama Butterfly_ were all based upon cheesy popular sources. No one has ever seriously suggested that any of Puccini's libretto's (unlike Strauss' and Wagner's) are actually passable purely on literary terms. Of course Schubert and Mahler were not the greatest judge of poetry either. The magic is that a composer can transform... or even ennoble a less-than-satisfactory text. Like lieder or songs, or ballet, or film, opera is an art form where the whole can be far greater than the sum of its parts.

And then we have Richard Strauss. The composer of soap operas? This would suggest a questionable degree of literary judgment. _Salome_ is a masterpiece of decadence following in the tradition of Walter Pater, J.K. Huysmans, Theophile Gautier, Charles Baudelaire, and Oscar Wilde, who composed the original play upon which it is based. To this already heady mix, Strauss brings elements of nascent German Expressionism creating an unsettling contrast between the lush beauty of Late Romanticism and the jarring realities of early Modernism.

The same might be said of _Elektra_... which benefits further from Strauss' direct partnership with the great Austrian author, Hugo von Hofmannsthal, who also composed the librettos for _Der Rosenkavalier, Ariadne auf Naxos, Die Frau ohne Schatten_, and _Arabella. Der Rosenkavalier_, loosely based upon a play by Molière, is certainly a comedy in the tradition of Mozart's _Cosi fan tutte_ and _Le Nozze di Figaro_. Like those two great predecessors, Dr Rosenkavalier... in spite of its comic elements... operates on a much deeper level, exploring issues of love, the relationships between men and women, and the realities of aging.

As for the question of Strauss' failure to embrace "lofty tragedy"... a rather dated idea, is it not? By most standards, _Don Quixote, Tristram Shandy, A Mid-Summer Night's Dream,_ the plays of Beaumarchais, Molière, Aristophanes, Samuel Beckett, Eugène Ionesco, Jean Genet, Friedrich Dürrenmatt, Pope's poetry, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, and the fiction of Jonathan Swift, Franz Kafka, Günter Grass, J.L. Borges etc... are all ranked among the greatest works of literature... in spite of their avoidance of lofty tragedy.

Again, I love both Puccini and Strauss. I believe Puccini was able to transform the sappy and at times crappy librettos into something truly moving... but I fail to see the need to champion your favorite composer by doing a sloppy hatchet job on the other... especially when this is poorly supported by the facts.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Except for "Salome" it's Giacomo Puccini by a country mile.
Why? Because he gets right through to my heart and touches me.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I think that Puccini is way too melodramatic for me plotwise... honestly I prefer a more emotionally detached approach.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> Puccini is way too melodramatic


is that a bad thing?.. melodrama is one of the highest points art has achieved.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I like Salome, Elektra and Daphne.
Daphne is one of the operas I know of that have the most beautiful music but I voted for Puccini because I in general I prefer the music in Puccini's operas and I find the stories in Puccini's operas more interesting.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

sharik said:


> is that a bad thing?.. melodrama is one of the highest points art has achieved.


Okay it's not bad in a good dose as this article http://www.theguardian.com/music/2005/aug/19/classicalmusicandopera.edinburghfestival2005 specifies.

But too much of a good thing is a bad thing methinks.


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## Kashania (Jan 1, 2015)

I voted for equal. Strauss achieved greater heights than Puccini. Nothing Puccini wrote can compare with _Elektra _ for example. But Puccini is more consistent and more concise.

Strauss does love the sound of his own voice and there are sections of his opera where I feel like I'm getting too much "noise" and note-spinning. Both composers move me, though in different ways. Puccini is more typically moving, usually because of the soprano's (melodramatic) emotional journey. Strauss can be much more harrowing. One of the strongest reactions I've ever had at any opera was watching Karita Matilla sing her first Salome at the Met (the second one was great too but not on the same level).

Strauss was the more varied composer too, even sticking strictly to opera. There's a lot of variety from _Elektra_ to _Rosenkavalier _to _Arabella _to _Ariadne_, both in terms of the nature of the drama and the music.

Puccini spread his wings too. _Gianni Schichi _and _Fanciulla _both go in new directions. But overall, his operas are more similar to each other.

I guess, at the end of the day, I enjoy Puccini more and return to his operas more frequently. And his gift for melody was really something -- easy to take for granted but shouldn't be. Strauss achieved greater heights as I mentioned at the top, and for that reason, I probably would pick him if I were forced to. But I'm quite happy with my vote for both.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Kashania said:


> Nothing Puccini wrote can compare with _Elektra _ for example.


well _Tosca_ for example.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Der Rosenkavalier, man! Der Rosenkavalier!
> 
> 
> 
> ...












A little essential courtesy?-- rigidly exacted? Bringing the Chevalier back to decency as it were?

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

I'll give him time. . . and then if I see some well-aimed mud coming Strauss' way, I will of course unloose some Parthian shafts. . . <Wink.>

Yeah, the Karajan/Philharmonia_ Rosenkavalier_ is an absolute treasure. Quite possibly the most refined and subtle operatic endeavor in pure grace and beauty that I've heard anywhere. Elisabeth Schwartzkopf's monologue in front of the mirror at the end of Act One, where she's reflecting on how her beauty and charm will start to wane-- accompanied by Karajan's exquisite chamber-like bittersweetness-- coupled with her heartbreaking, sighing_ Innigkeit_, just gets me water-eyed every _time._


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

sharik said:


> is that a bad thing?.. melodrama is one of the highest points art has achieved.


Or one of the lowest points depending on one's perspective.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

To my mind they're equal, though if pressed I'd say that I _slightly_ prefer Strauss.


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## Kashania (Jan 1, 2015)

sharik said:


> well _Tosca_ for example.


I love _Tosca _(especially the first two acts) but it doesn't have the same power as _Elektra _for me. _Elektra _leaves one breathless at the end in a way that few operas by any composer do.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Puccini gets to the depth of me whenever I listen to his operas. I especially am attracted to the Asian influence so prevalent in many of his works. His arias too are so melodic that they sometimes stay with me all day.
His orchestrations are powerful as in the "Te deum".


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

For me the answer would be Puccini and even though I adore Weber and Wagner, but I think Italian Operas are still superior far to the German school of Music-Drama...

My favorite Puccini operas are Tosca, Madama Butterfly and Turandot.

I like Strauss only in Salome and Elektra.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I absolutely love Strauss' "Di rigori armato" from _Rosenkavalier_, which I read as a parody of the syrupy sentimentality of Puccini (and a big hint that the opera should not be taken as sentiment).

I like some Puccini arias but by an large I am not a big fan of his operas. I find _Suor Angelica_ to be really beautiful. _Tosca_ is growing on me; I still need to see _Fanciulla_ and _Manon Lescaut_.

I really love Strauss, which I find interesting because before I got into opera I was not a fan of his orchestral works (they have since grown on me). _Rosenkavalier_, _Ariadne_, _Die Frosch_, _Salome_ are all great works. I need to become better acquainted with the others; _Elektra_ is at the top of that list!


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

They're just too different. Ultimately I listen to Puccini more as a fairly big Puccini fan, but I love the operas of R. Strauss and recently listened to "Salome"; it was excellent. I'd like to hear more of R. Strauss since I am less familiar with his work, compared to Puccini's operas, some of which I know by heart


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## Fagotterdammerung (Jan 15, 2015)

I love the Strauss operas immensely: I think Capriccio has to be my favorite opera to sit down and really _listen_ to.

I dislike Puccini ... something about his aesthetic jars on me, though he was certainly a talented composer.


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## Speranza (Nov 22, 2014)

I think Strauss wrote the best opera of the two that being Der Rosenkavalier but I think the two composers are different and that a direct comparison is difficult. I like Puccini slightly more overall but I have less chance to listen to Strauss so that may change in time.


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