# Which ending is more moving/uplifting?



## maestro267

Both of these pieces have triumphant, uplifting conclusions, but which one is more uplifting?


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## handlebar

The 2nd without a doubt!!!

Mahler's vision of a Resurrection (which certainly was contrary to his Jewish and Catholic faiths) became this works final theme. I find the M2 one of the most profound and moving symphonies ever written .

Jim


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## Mirror Image

handlebar said:


> The 2nd without a doubt!!!
> 
> Mahler's vision of a Resurrection (which certainly was contrary to his Jewish and Catholic faiths) became this works final theme. I find the M2 one of the most profound and moving symphonies ever written .
> 
> Jim


I completely concur with this. Mahler's 2nd is outstanding in every way imaginable.


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## Tchaikov6

Very old thread, but I greatly prefer Mahler 2, for it's fusion of so many ideas, whereas 8 seems a bit redundant near the end for me.


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## Totenfeier

The end of the Second is moving and uplifting; I would say that the end of the Eighth is overwhelming. The one lifts you up; the other knocks you out.

The coda of _Bruckner's_ eighth is both.


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## Heck148

#8 - esp Solti recording....really special, the spatially placed brass choirs....


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## Pugg

Heck148 said:


> #8 - esp Solti recording....really special, the spatially placed brass choirs....


I second this, including the recording.


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## DeepR

Both are great but it's hard to find a recording of the 8th where the sound of the finale is to my liking.

BBC Proms, Rattle / National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain got it right. 




That's the sound of the universe, right there at the end.


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## SiegendesLicht

The finale of the 8th is a hymn to woman in all her incarnations:

_Jungfrau, Mutter, Königin, 
Göttin, bleibe gnädig!_

Virgin, Mother, Queen,
Goddess, remain ever gracious!

The finale of the 2nd is a hymn to resurrection of the soul.

I like to think that there is room for both in the world, the sensual and the spiritual - and cannot really choose between the two.


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## Woodduck

I'll take #2, not for its religious theme but because it crowns a strong, concise symphony rather than an overwrought, sprawling, lumbering, post-Wagnerian, proto-MGM production about God knows what.


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## hpowders

Mahler 8, every time. The ending to Mahler 2 seems shrill and strained to me as if Mahler is hysterically trying to convince himself there is an afterlife, even though deep down in his genius he really believes it's all a crock of s***t.


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## Merl

The 2nd. I still don't get the 8th. Lord knows ive tried!


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## Becca

DeepR said:


> Both are great but it's hard to find a recording of the 8th where the sound of the finale is to my liking.
> 
> BBC Proms, Rattle / National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain got it right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the sound of the universe, right there at the end.


I agree, the joy and involvement of those teenagers encountering the music, most probably for the first time, really communicates itself.


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## DeepR

I think the second is the better symphony but I love the finales of both.

Another great choral finale is of course Scriabin's first. Just as uplifting and stirring as these two.


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## Jacob Brooks

Urgh... I don't tend to be a late romantic but these specific two pieces occupy the positions as my nr. 1 (Symph 8) and nr. 2 (Symph 2) favorite pieces of music of all time. Symphony 8 is miles ahead of symphony 2 overall, but the ending of symphony 2 is just too amazing, how it is led up to so linearly (and yet with no tedium) by the over-an-hour of music that precedes. For this I have to vote symphony 2, even though my heart beats almost exclusively to the musical soul of Mahler's 8th, which never fails to make me weep and which gets better and better each listen, which refutes any claim that music is not a divine subject.


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## Azol

DeepR said:


> Both are great but it's hard to find a recording of the 8th where the sound of the finale is to my liking.
> 
> BBC Proms, Rattle / National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain got it right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the sound of the universe, right there at the end.


If there is a recording available, I would order it right away.
Even considering the fact Sir Simon was known to be disposed very unfavorably towards Mahler's Eighth, I believe this is great performance. After such an experience one is able to talk either in Latin or _**censored**_ to express the feelings.

Voted M8, witnessed two live performances myself, going to attend one more this year.

P.S. Over half an hour later, I still have a wide smile on my face and the day has become considerably brighter (a storm is brewing outside, but anyway). Definitely Eighth, even though I hold M2 close to my heart.


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## Pugg

Azol said:


> If there is a recording available, I would order it right away.
> Even considering the fact Sir Simon was disposed very unfavorably towards Mahler's Eighth, I believe this is great performance.
> 
> Voted M8, witnessed two live performances myself, going to attend one more this year.


I have to wait till 2020, Mahler year in Amsterdam......


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## Azol

Pugg said:


> I have to wait till 2020, Mahler year in Amsterdam......


I will be there!!! (hopefully)


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## Pugg

Azol said:


> I will be there!!! (hopefully)


Cool, we can have a coffee .


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## Azol

Pugg said:


> Cool, we can have a coffee .


Deal! :cheers: :tiphat:


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## SiegendesLicht

They are performing the 8th here in Hamburg at the Elbphilharmonie this Sunday - but all the tickets are long gone of course


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

For me, it is the 2nd. That being said, I have never been truly satisfied with the 8th. It just does nothing for me.


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## Bix

I've sang in both - #8 is exhilarating but #2 is uplifting.


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## Janspe

There are few pieces that move me as strongly as the 8th symphony - so my vote goes to it. That being said, I do _adore_ the 2nd, and choosing between the finales is almost an impossible task.


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## DeepR

Azol said:


> If there is a recording available, I would order it right away.
> Even considering the fact Sir Simon was known to be disposed very unfavorably towards Mahler's Eighth, I believe this is great performance. After such an experience one is able to talk either in Latin or _**censored**_ to express the feelings.
> 
> Voted M8, witnessed two live performances myself, going to attend one more this year.
> 
> P.S. Over half an hour later, I still have a wide smile on my face and the day has become considerably brighter (a storm is brewing outside, but anyway). Definitely Eighth, even though I hold M2 close to my heart.







Notice the guy in the bottom left corner at 4:05. He knew what he was listening to.


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## Totenfeier

I just yesterday re-watched Klaus Tennstedt conduct his famous live Eighth on Youtube, and as one of the comments noted, the man is transfigured at the end. It's true. For a few seconds, he becomes the essence of conducting. It is stunning to watch.


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## SiegendesLicht

I heard the 8th live last night. The ending was so uplifting that I felt as if I could step over the barrier of the balcony where I was seated and walk on the sound waves like Jesus walked on water. Totally overpowering and louder than many a metal show I used to go to. But I guess until I have heard the 2nd in the same setting I cannot really make a final judgment.


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## jdec

Totenfeier said:


> I just yesterday re-watched Klaus Tennstedt conduct his famous live Eighth on Youtube, and as one of the comments noted, the man is transfigured at the end. It's true. For a few seconds, he becomes the essence of conducting. It is stunning to watch.


Klaus Tennstedt once said he found in Mahler's music "_the meaning of my existence._"


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## chalkpie

Mahler 2 Finale s the biggest musical orgasm ever written imo. Especially with Lenny. What's not to love?


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## Pugg

chalkpie said:


> Mahler 2 Finale s the biggest musical orgasm ever written imo. Especially with Lenny. What's not to love?


The majority of members seems to agree with you.


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## Totenfeier

jdec said:


> Klaus Tennstedt once said he found in Mahler's music "_the meaning of my existence._"


That may have been more true than even_ he _realized.


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## Heck148

I have to change my vote here - originally voted for Sym #8....now have to vote for a draw, both are massively impressive - impossible to prefer one over the other.

I listened to both within the last 2 days - both times with
Solti/ChicagoSO/Decca:
#8 - recorded in Vienna - Sofiensaal, 9/71 - CSO, with VSO Chorus, Vienna Boys Choir, etc..
#2 - recorded in Medinah Temple,Chicago - 5/80 - CSO Chorus

These are both overpowering - I'm not sure about "uplifting" - perhaps, but maybe "blown out of my seat" might be more accurate!!
great playing, superb choruses - excellent sound reproduction - tho no recording system can possibly capture all of the sound being produced. but Decca has a pretty good shot at it - WOW!!
for #8 - recording engineers - Kenneth Wilkinson, Gordon Parry [Wilkinson one of my favorites - Kertesz/LSO Dvorak, etc....]
#2 - Mallinson, Lock, Dunkerly

It's a draw....choosing between superlatives......


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

chalkpie said:


> Mahler 2 Finale s the biggest musical orgasm ever written imo. Especially with Lenny. What's not to love?


I've always been dissatisfied in the way Mahler sets/harmonises the words "zu Gott wird es dich tragen" - the "zu Gotts" being the culprits. I always perceive a lapse in momentum here, a crucial point in the music, which detracts from what is an otherwise glorious peroration.


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## ArtMusic

Of the two, I would pick no.8 but I don't find them particularly uplifting compared with other symphonies.


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## Vasks

I literally get goosebumps in final couple of minutes of #2. Even if it's a mono recording played over the radio. #8 not so.

BTW: The way Mahler sets up the conclusion tonality-wise in #2 is amazing and yet simple. I believe he starts in 6 flats, then a bit later to 5, then later to 4 and when he arrives at the final key of E-flat major (3 flats) it's time for those goosebumps. Most Common Practice composers believed that going to less flats (or going from few sharps to more sharps) lightens (or "lifts") the music. So yeah, #2 is uplifting musically.


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## Pugg

Two is winning by a landslide.


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## Rys

I don't want to choose a side, but I lean towards the 2nd. To me the second feels to floats upwards into heaven in the final sequence. And I'm not a fan of the percussion rythem and crashs near the end of the eighth. I wish he would have written a note/chord to hold out alone in its place. 
Maybe it wasn't a hard to chose a side after all.


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## DeepR

I guess performances of the 8th have to be crowdfunded these days.
For fellow Dutch posters: https://www.orkest.nl/mahler8


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## SiegendesLicht

DeepR said:


> I guess performances of the 8th have to be crowdfunded these days.
> For fellow Dutch posters: https://www.orkest.nl/mahler8


You should come over here to Hamburg 
Sorry, the link is in German only http://klassik-begeistert.de/gustav...cher-akademischer-chor-latvija-elbphilharmon/


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## Jacob Brooks

Take it from someone who thinks the 8th is the best piece of music yet devised... Mahler's 2nd has a better ending


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