# Vivaldi - Pretty Samey



## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

I mean I like his music and all but his string works are pretty samey right? All that speedy sawing away at the violins, I always know when I'm listening to Vivaldi.

NB Love his religious works though


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

classical yorkist said:


> I mean I like his music and all but his string works are pretty samey right? All that speedy sawing away at the violins, I always know when I'm listening to Vivaldi.
> 
> NB Love his religious works though


some of the 100+ vc are good though.

and the 4 seasons is probably the greatest set of vcs composed in the baroque period.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

I think the same thing. Four seasons are one of my favorite pieces. His Vespers are excellent. And a few other things are good. And the rest are repeats and imitations.


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

classical yorkist said:


> I mean I like his music and all but his string works are pretty samey right? All that speedy sawing away at the violins, I always know when I'm listening to Vivaldi.
> 
> NB Love his religious works though


I used to think like this too, but a lot of listening to Vivaldi has convinced me otherwise.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Vivaldi's concertos all sound the same when you're not listening to them.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I'm starting to think that as much as a composer's 'style' or tendency to repetition, modern recording technology also has a lot to answer for. In the days when people heard fewer performances they probably didn't fixate on this as much as the modern listener working his way through a Vivaldi - complete works box-set in 24 hours, assisted by an espresso machine.

Anyone who has ever tried listening to _all_ - that is every single one - of Beethoven's piano sonatas one after the other (and who is being honest) will admit that they all start to merge a bit after a while. Very likely much different than ordering a pony a trap to go and watch the newly-composed maestro's sonatas as they were premièred. And he wrote less than 500 of those.


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> I'm starting to think that as much as a composer's 'style' or tendency to repetition, modern recording technology also has a lot to answer for. In the days when people heard fewer performances they probably didn't fixate on this as much as the modern listener working his way through a Vivaldi - complete works box-set in 24 hours, assisted by an espresso machine.
> 
> *Anyone who has ever tried listening to all - that is every single one - of Beethoven's piano sonatas one after the other (and who is being honest) will admit that they all start to merge a bit after a while.* Very likely much different than ordering a pony a trap to go and watch the newly-composed maestro's sonatas as they were premièred. And he wrote less than 500 of those.


Not really. At least not once you get to his middle period sonatas and onward.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

OP, try to writhe the half off what Vivaldi wroth and let us tell you how you did.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

It's not a criticism as such more an observation. I find Vivaldi's music exhilarating and driving and full of emotion, it's just that he has a 'tell' in his works, much more than any other composer I can think of.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

I love Vivaldi's music.
Listen to his late works and you will see that it's not that samey. There's some pathos and passion that it's unique in baroque music.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Heliogabo said:


> I love Vivaldi's music.
> Listen to his late works and you will see that it's not that samey. There's some pathos and passion that it's unique in baroque music.


Maybe that's the approach I should take then. Currently I'm just listening randomly with no sense of how a work fits into the greater body of work, I shall make a concerted effort to understand his works.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Famously described as a composer who wrote one concerto six hundred times Vivaldi has had a bad press regarding his output more than any other major composer I can think of, with the possible exception of Telemann.
I was more on the side of the repetitious brigade when it came to the works of the Red Priest until I had a bit of a reappraisal of him. I played one of the ubiquitous bulk boxes of a mixed bag of Vivaldi's concertos - Trevor Pinnock and the English Concert - about three time in a row and was very pleasantly surprised at the results. Rather than the mechanical wall paper dirge I was expecting I found works of great originality, sparkle, drama and an all pervading style reeking over a Venetian square. I went on to many of the other major sets of concertos and some of the fine secular pieces and before long I could truly say Vivaldi was buried somewhere between Bruckner and Schumann as one of my top composers.
So, to anyone doubting the genius or originality of this mega-concerto composer I urge you to invest in some of the newer, period instrument performances and be blown away.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

classical yorkist said:


> It's not a criticism as such more an observation. I find Vivaldi's music exhilarating and driving and full of emotion, it's just that he has a 'tell' in his works, much more than any other composer I can think of.


Okay fare enough, that's why the


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Pugg said:


> OP, try to writhe the half off what Vivaldi wroth and let us tell you how you did.


"Writhe"? "Wroth"? Now Pugg I've just been to Amsterdam and I know that you Hollanders speak better English than that...half the time I thought I was in the East End of London.
Has anyone in the thread quoted Stravinsky re: Vivaldi yet?


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Alydon said:


> Famously described as a composer who wrote one concerto six hundred times Vivaldi has had a bad press regarding his output more than any other major composer I can think of, with the possible exception of Telemann.
> I was more on the side of the repetitious brigade when it came to the works of the Red Priest until I had a bit of a reappraisal of him. I played one of the ubiquitous bulk boxes of a mixed bag of Vivaldi's concertos - Trevor Pinnock and the English Concert - about three time in a row and was very pleasantly surprised at the results. Rather than the mechanical wall paper dirge I was expecting I found works of great originality, sparkle, drama and an all pervading style reeking over a Venetian square. I went on to many of the other major sets of concertos and some of the fine secular pieces and before long I could truly say Vivaldi was buried somewhere between Bruckner and Schumann as one of my top composers.
> So, to anyone doubting the genius or originality of this mega-concerto composer I urge you to invest in some of the newer, period instrument performances and be blown away.


There it is...only Stravinsky said it was the same Concerto 500 times, but we can add another hundred or so....
Btw I really like Vivaldi and have a shelf full or recordings. He was very influential to his contemporaries, notably J.S. Bach and Pisandel. And what Vivaldi should be telling Igor in the afterlife is "Hey, I'm comfortable in my style and don't feel the need to jump on a new bandwagon every decade or so. Can you say the same thing?"


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Triplets said:


> There it is...only Stravinsky said it was the same Concerto 500 times, but we can add another hundred or so....
> Stravinsky's comment has sometimes been quoted at "400 concertos" but Italian composer Luigi Dallapiccola actually refered to Vivaldi's "One concerto written six hundred times," and that number is quoted extensively in written material on the composer.
> However, as regards the quip, Vivaldi has had the last laugh becoming even more popular than those luminaries who dismissed his work.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

My favorite Vivaldi of what I've heard is L'estro armonico, Op. 3, a fascinating and varied set of 12 concertos. Lots of chromatic motion, irregular phrasing, even some fugal writing.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> My favorite Vivaldi of what I've heard is L'estro armonico, Op. 3, a fascinating and varied set of 12 concertos. Lots of chromatic motion, irregular phrasing, even some fugal writing.


I agree. The no.8 in A minor sounds to me like a possible inspiration for the final movement of Genzmer's sinfonia for string orchestra (1930 or 33).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

classical yorkist said:


> It's not a criticism as such more an observation. I find Vivaldi's music exhilarating and driving and full of emotion, it's just that he has a 'tell' in his works, much more than any other composer I can think of.


Why a "tell"? That's something significant but non-obvious that a knowledgeable observer would notice. Vivaldi's mannerisms are _very_ obvious to listeners who are _not_ knowledgeable, and account for his "all sounds the same" reputation as well as, I'd guess, his popularity (easy recognition contributes to that). Increasing acquaintance reveals a greater stylistic range.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I can imagine another great artist being criticised - 'All that blank verse - always five acts - never enough women characters - pile of dead bodies in the tragedies - horn jokes in the comedies - ti tum ti tum ti tum ti tum ti *tum*!'


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Ingélou said:


> I can imagine another great artist being criticised - 'All that blank verse - always five acts - never enough women characters - pile of dead bodies in the tragedies - horn jokes in the comedies - ti tum ti tum ti tum ti tum ti *tum*!'


Those were the formulae that enabled whoever wrote Shakespeare to write Shakespeare. The real Shakespeare would never fall into such cliches.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

I have no idea why Vivaldi bears the brunt of this style of criticism that honestly applies to pretty much all baroque composers, as well as Mozart and Haydn to a large extent. Even Bach re-used a lot of the same material in his cantatas but somehow you never hear anyone saying they're "samey." Like all composers Vivaldi composed some works that were more frivolous than others, but that takes nothing away from any of his great works. Vivaldi was the first composer I truly loved to learn to play.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Originally Posted by Pugg View Post
OP, try to writhe the half off what Vivaldi wroth and let us tell you how you did.



Triplets said:


> "Writhe"? "Wroth"? Now Pugg I've just been to Amsterdam and I know that you Hollanders speak better English than that...half the time I thought I was in the East End of London.
> Has anyone in the thread quoted Stravinsky re: Vivaldi yet?


Maybe Vivaldi squirmed (writhed) in anger (wroth) as he wrote?


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

I think part of the reason why 17th/18th centuries music seems a bit samey is because they were told to right like that by the courts who employed them . It's only towards the end of the 18th century; and Beethoven in particular, that composers became more freelance and were able to express themselves more freely. 
You mentioned Vivaldi. But none so more "bound " by a particular style was William Boyce. He wrote basically watered down Handelian music all his life.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

I just hear the similarity more in Vivaldi over other baroque composers.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Alydon said:


> Triplets said:
> 
> 
> > There it is...only Stravinsky said it was the same Concerto 500 times, but we can add another hundred or so....
> ...


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

So, someone help me out here. What am I missing in Vivaldi? Am I getting sidetracked by superficial similarity and missing the deeper variety? Anyone care to enlighten my listening experience with examples? I'm keen to develop a deeper appreciation if I am able to.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> Alydon said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have any evidence to support the premise that Vivaldi is more popular than Stravinsky? You may be right, but I think it's debatable.
> ...


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Having done a tiny bit of research it appears that Vivaldi utilised a style of composition called ritornello which intersperses soloists with repeated sections of orchestra. So it seems he wanted his work to sound that way. Perhaps Vivaldi sounds samey due to the unusual power he gets in his ritornello style?


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

classical yorkist said:


> So, someone help me out here. What am I missing in Vivaldi? Am I getting sidetracked by superficial similarity and missing the deeper variety? Anyone care to enlighten my listening experience with examples? I'm keen to develop a deeper appreciation if I am able to.


It's likely much harder to look at Vivaldi now and see his influence, as opposed to when e.g. J.S. Bach first encountered his music. Bach absorbed a lot from Vivaldi by studying his development of the Italian concerto. Handel also, in his 'Italianate period' wrote music strongly reminiscent of Vivaldi.

Vivaldi has a particular style and it's of no use approaching it with an eye on other composers, along the lines of: 'am I going to find contrapuntal and fugal writing like that of Bach?' The answer is: no, but that should not be a problem. The majority of Mozart's works are also not contrapuntal in that way (until his last years when he clearly got a taste for Bach). What Vivaldi's music has is: fiery virtuosity, dramatic openings and grand finales, lots of melodic phrases (often based upon variations), quite a broad use of dissonant harmony.

I suppose you have to like baroque music and not care that much that Vivaldi reused his own music quite a bit (as many others did). Remember that you don't have to like all of Vivaldi's output to 'get' him. If you happen to enjoy the Four Seasons and some other concerti and a handful of his opera overtures, then that's fine. Just because he wrote a lot of concertos doesn't me they must all be listened to.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> It's likely much harder to look at Vivaldi now and see his influence, as opposed to when e.g. J.S. Bach first encountered his music. Bach absorbed a lot from Vivaldi by studying his development of the Italian concerto. Handel also, in his 'Italianate period' wrote music strongly reminiscent of Vivaldi.
> 
> Vivaldi has a particular style and it's of no use approaching it with an eye on other composers, along the lines of: 'am I going to find contrapuntal and fugal writing like that of Bach?' The answer is: no, but that should not be a problem. The majority of Mozart's works are also not contrapuntal in that way (until his last years when he clearly got a taste for Bach). What Vivaldi's music has is: fiery virtuosity, dramatic openings and grand finales, lots of melodic phrases (often based upon variations), quite a broad use of dissonant harmony.
> 
> I suppose you have to like baroque music and not care that much that Vivaldi reused his own music quite a bit (as many others did). Remember that you don't have to like all of Vivaldi's output to 'get' him. If you happen to enjoy the Four Seasons and some other concerti and a handful of his opera overtures, then that's fine. Just because he wrote a lot of concertos doesn't me they must all be listened to.


Well I love listening to Vivaldi and I adore baroque music, it was just something I'd noticed. If people think there's something else to listen for I am, quite literally, all ears.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

classical yorkist said:


> I am, quite literally, all ears.


I can sell you an ointment that will fix that.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> Alydon said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have any evidence to support the premise that Vivaldi is more popular than Stravinsky? You may be right, but I think it's debatable.
> ...


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## StDior (May 28, 2015)

classical yorkist said:


> Well I love listening to Vivaldi and I adore baroque music, it was just something I'd noticed. If people think there's something else to listen for I am, quite literally, all ears.


Similarly as at Mozart, I appreciated Vivaldi much higher after knowledge of a few of his operas. 
I can recommend: La Fida Ninfa (this is my favorite, the first 2 acts are very nice), Teuzzone, Bajazed (Pasticcio).
To support my recommendation, I collected some beautiful, uplifting arias from different Vivaldi's operas:
La Fida Ninfa "Dolce fiamma": 



 "Il mio core, a chi la diede": 



 "Deh ti piega": 



La Silvia "Terribile è lo scempio": 



Il Giustino "Dopo i nembi e le procelle": 



Bajazed "Quel ciglio vezzosetto": 



Teuzzone "Base al regno e guida al trono": 



 (from 2:13:56 to 2:17:35)
Arsilda "L'esperto nocchiero":


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Vivaldi indeed may be pretty samey, but alas, that is US Pubic Radio's favorite gamey.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

I missed Vivaldi and the Four Seasons. I had not listened to anything by him for years so I bought this recording. Samey, yes but very satisfying.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I'd recommend anyone subscribing to Stravinsky's theory that Vivaldi wrote the same concerto 500 times give an ear to this:

-- Domine ad adjuvandum me RV 593

-- Stabat mater with Andreas Scholl

-- The Four Seasons played by Galway

-- Concerto for Flute and Bassoon "La Notte P. 342 (not the flute concerto from Op. 10)

-- Concerto Grosso in D P. 444/RV 532a played by ASMIF and Marriner

-- Dixit Dominus RV 544

-- Concerto in B flat major for violin and cello RV 547

-- Concerto for Violin in B minor Op. 8 No. 10 "La Caccia" RV 362

-- Concerto for Flute in D major Op. 10 No. 3 "Il Gardellino" RV 428

-- Concerto in E flat major for Violin "La Tempesta di Mare" RV 253

-- Concerto for 3 Violins in A major "Per eco in Iontana" RV 552

-- Concerto for Flute Op. 10 No. 2 "La Notte" RV 439

-- Concerto in G for Violin, 2 Flutes, 2 Oboes, 2 Bassoons, Strings and Continuo P. 383

Try finding recordings by Renato Fasano and Virtuosi di Roma in any of the concertos


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

The reason to try finding recordings by Renato Fasano and Virtuosi di Roma in any of the concertos is because, more than just about any other Baroque composer, Vivaldi's music has been disfigured beyond recognition by the period performance crowd. 

Just about nothing is known of Vivaldi's life except he wrote pretty much everything for girls living in a home for wayward or castoff girls. But that doesn't stop anyone from disfiguring his music by rendering it lifeless in performance on recordings and in concerts using today's styles.

Vivaldi's music, when played wonderfully, is full of expressive nuance and has a certain romantic swagger. Today's performers tend to play him like they are computers. This is one reason his music all sounds the same to a lot of people.


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