# Recommended Beethoven Sonatas



## guy

I have been playing piano, and have memorized/almost memorized the first movement of both Piano sonata 20 and 14, and wanted to tackle another one, and I wanted to know what you guys would think a challenging new sonata would be for me to play. I have been playing for 8 years. Thanks!


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## Rachmanijohn

Nice to meet you, fellow pianist! Been playing 12 years and have gone through most of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas. I would recommend next for you to try the Piano Sonata No.8 in C minor, Op.13 which is also known as "Pathetique. Also the first movement of Sonata No.4 in E-flat major, Op.7 or Sonata No.5 in C minor, Op.10 No.1 would be doable. To give yourself a bigger challenge maybe try to tackle the first movement of Sonata No.17 in D minor, Op.31 No.2 which is also known as "The Tempest".


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## PetrB

I'm going to recommend my favorite underdog _again_, Op. 10 no. 2. _ALL THREE MOVEMENTS_, please 

If you can handle that well, I have hopes of believing you may be, some years from now, ready for 'the tempest.'

Best regards.


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## guy

Thank you! Do you think that Piano Sonata No. 1 would be possible? I really like the first movement.


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## Rachmanijohn

Op.10 no.2 is a good suggestion as well. The first movement of No.1 in F minor is doable, yes.


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## guy

Thank you for your help!


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## Ukko

What is this thing young musicians-in-training have for 1st movements? Do you folks believe you have learned a work because you can play its 1st movement? So when you have a work's 1st movement down you move on to another work?

WTFIGO?


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## Rachmanijohn

Ukko said:


> What is this thing young musicians-in-training have for 1st movements? Do you folks believe you have learned a work because you can play its 1st movement? So when you have a work's 1st movement down you move on to another work?
> 
> WTFIGO?


Someone who can play the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata doesn't necessarily have the ability to play the last movement. Should that stop them from learning the first movement in the first place? Hopefully they will go back and finish it later if they don't have the skills when they start. I always do complete works, but when I was younger yes I would often do first movements or second movements or third movements and then finish the work at a later time.


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## starthrower

Personally, I would love to be able to play the 2nd movt of the Pathetique. For me, it's the most beautiful thing Beethoven ever wrote.


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## Ukko

Goody for all you 'partialists'. If I can't hear the whole work I don't want to hear any of it.

:scold:


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## Rachmanijohn

You ever play piano? It's a bit different actually playing music than it is just listening to it. Not everyone who plays is gonna be able to play everything. Yet it's good they at least play something of these great works we know and love. It's not about being a "partialist" or "completionist". It's about doing what you can. Don't be a dick.


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## moody

Rachmanijohn said:


> You ever play piano? It's a bit different actually playing music than it is just listening to it. Not everyone who plays is gonna be able to play everything. Yet it's good they at least play something of these great works we know and love. It's not about being a "partialist" or "completionist". It's about doing what you can. Don't be a dick.


Your last comment is certainly insulting and will get you into trouble.


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## Ukko

Originally Posted by *Rachmanijohn*  
You ever play piano? It's a bit different actually playing music than it is just listening to it. Not everyone who plays is gonna be able to play everything. Yet it's good they at least play something of these great works we know and love. It's not about being a "partialist" or "completionist". It's about doing what you can. Don't be a dick.



moody said:


> Your last comment is certainly insulting and will get you into trouble.


By TC standards it's probably an insult, but at least technically it is not._ Rachmanijohn_ just doesn't get it. I have zero objection to partialists playing their partials - as long as I am not subjected to them. If partialists are willing to 'settle', so be it.


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## dgee

Ukko - the OP is a learner pianist. All power to them to tackle parts of pieces - it's a great way to get a taste of some meaty repertoire and target specific technical and interpretive issues that these pieces contain in a manageable way. It's how the intermediate student has learned since time immemorial - if there's a specific issue with this approach you're aware of please let TC know

I doubt you'll be "subjected" to incomplete pieces in recital or recording unless you hunt it out. And telling a learner that they're happy to settle is, well... unhelpful and uncharitable


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## moody

Ukko said:


> Originally Posted by *Rachmanijohn*
> You ever play piano? It's a bit different actually playing music than it is just listening to it. Not everyone who plays is gonna be able to play everything. Yet it's good they at least play something of these great works we know and love. It's not about being a "partialist" or "completionist". It's about doing what you can. Don't be a dick.
> 
> By TC standards it's probably an insult, but at least technically it is not._ Rachmanijohn_ just doesn't get it. I have zero objection to partialists playing their partials - as long as I am not subjected to them. If partialists are willing to 'settle', so be it.


Does "dick" have a different meaning in America from what's understood in the UK ?


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## Rachmanijohn

You seriously want to get caught up on my use of the word "dick" when I'm trying to defend guy after Ukko was being a complete ******* to him just because he wanted to learn a movement of a Beethoven Sonata. I mean how dare anyone especially a learner do incomplete works? Are you blind to how Ukko was treating him? I rest my case. Namaste.


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## Ukko

dgee said:


> Ukko - the OP is a learner pianist. All power to them to tackle parts of pieces - it's a great way to get a taste of some meaty repertoire and target specific technical and interpretive issues that these pieces contain in a manageable way. It's how the intermediate student has learned since time immemorial - if there's a specific issue with this approach you're aware of please let TC know
> 
> I doubt you'll be "subjected" to incomplete pieces in recital or recording unless you hunt it out. And telling a learner that they're happy to settle is, well... unhelpful and uncharitable


If all the learner is willing to attempt is part of a work, he is selling himself short. If learners have been doing so 'since time immemorial' they have been screwing up 'since time immemorial'. It is a lousy way to get into the innards of a work, _especially_ those 'interpretive issues'. No wonder there are so many mechanics out there - incomplete musicians. There are plenty of interesting pieces specifically composed for the purpose of getting the learner pianist to the level where he can tackle Beethoven - complete works thereof.


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## Ukko

moody said:


> Does "dick" have a different meaning in America from what's understood in the UK ?


I'm guessing the meaning is the same. _Rachmanjohn_ asked me not to be a dick, not that I am one. Looks like he has modified his opinion now, but that's probably because he wasted time and talent learning bits and pieces of Beethoven sonatas instead of learning the music, and is defensive about it.


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## guy

Ukko said:


> "By TC standards it's probably an insult, but at least technically it is not. Rachmanijohn just doesn't get it. I have zero objection to partialists playing their partials - as long as I am not subjected to them. If partialists are willing to 'settle', so be it."


I play what I like, not what people give to me.


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## PetrB

dgee said:


> Ukko - the OP is a learner pianist. All power to them to tackle parts of pieces - it's a great way to get a taste of some meaty repertoire and target specific technical and interpretive issues that these pieces contain in a manageable way. It's how the intermediate student has learned since time immemorial - if there's a specific issue with this approach you're aware of please let TC know
> 
> I doubt you'll be "subjected" to incomplete pieces in recital or recording unless you hunt it out. And telling a learner that they're happy to settle is, well... unhelpful and uncharitable


Incomplete pieces abound in beginning and early intermediate student recitals, they abound even more amongst the self-taught or dilettante crowd... they do not abound with the more earnest student, though they will learn first one movement of something, then usually within one or two year get to learning the other movements, ergo, the complete work.

The fact of having the experience of performing (at home or elsewhere) a complete sonata is necessary and de rigeur if you also want to learn how to 'really play,' i.e. developing the physical stamina as well as learning to intellectually sustain both interest and illuminate -- make sense to the listener -- the overall structure. That is where the multitudes getting a bit of this or that piece, or just one or a tiny handful of the Chopin preludes, _are not only personally missing out, but missing out on building necessary skill sets._

Going at it both more methodically and completely is for those earnest in wishing to truly progress, the other way is for 'piano players,' not pianists


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## guy

PetrB said:


> Incomplete pieces abound in beginning and early intermediate student recitals, they abound even more amongst the self-taught or dilettante crowd... they do not abound with the more earnest student, though they will learn first one movement of something, then usually within one or two year get to learning the other movements, ergo, the complete work.
> 
> The fact of having the experience of performing (at home or elsewhere) a complete sonata is necessary and de rigeur if you also want to learn how to 'really play,' i.e. developing the physical stamina as well as learning to intellectually sustain both interest and illuminate -- make sense to the listener -- the overall structure. That is where the multitudes getting a bit of this or that piece, or just one or a tiny handful of the Chopin preludes, _are not only personally missing out, but missing out on building necessary skill sets._
> 
> Going at it both more methodically and completely is for those earnest in wishing to truly progress, the other way is for 'piano players,' not pianists


If anyone thinks I could ever perform a complete sonata in public, let alone one movement, without completely flipping out and forgetting the ending 10 measures is wrong.


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## Rachmanijohn

Ukko said:


> I'm guessing the meaning is the same. _Rachmanjohn_ asked me not to be a dick, not that I am one. Looks like he has modified his opinion now, but that's probably because he wasted time and talent learning bits and pieces of Beethoven sonatas instead of learning the music, and is defensive about it.


I was defending guy for wanting to learn incomplete sonatas. I did that a little bit in my youth, but 95% percent of the time I did complete works. On my 13th birthday I was given the complete sheet music of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas and greedily sight read every damn page. Also, since I've been studying Piano Performance at a Conservatory with an internationally recognized teacher, I've been doing nothing but complete works. So don't try to put some box over me, you don't know me.


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## DavidA

Ukko said:


> Goody for all you 'partialists'. If I can't hear the whole work I don't want to hear any of it.
> 
> :scold:


I think we're talking about playing here not listening. I played parts of Beethoven sonatas but only the movements I could play. For example, I could play the first movement of the Moonlight but not the last - I left that to my wife! Playing yourself brings some pleasure - to me if not anyone else!
If, however, I want to hear the music complete I simply go to the CD cabinet and put on Richter, Kempff, Gilels, Serkin - pianists who can play it infinitely better than I could ever imagine. We have this wonderful luxury today. But that should not discourage us from playing the bits we can for our own pleasure - as long as we are not overheard!


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## DavidA

Talking about completists. Wasn't it the young Saint Saens who, at the age of nine, stood before an audience and asked them to choose any of the 32 Beethoven sonatas, which he would then play from memory!


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## PetrB

DavidA said:


> Talking about completists. Wasn't it the young Saint Saens who, at the age of nine, stood before an audience and asked them to choose any of the 32 Beethoven sonatas, which he would then play from memory!


It was at the end of a full-length recital, the choice offered to the audience when he was called back for an encore 

_*"Wunderkind shows off, film at eleven."*_


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## Ukko

PetrB said:


> [...]
> Going at it both more methodically and completely is for those earnest in wishing to truly progress, the other way is for 'piano players,' not pianists


And your last sentence illuminates where I jumped the traces. I had no idea I felt so strongly about Music.

I apologize to you, _guy_, for subjecting you to my quasi-religious tirade on the Sacred Duty of student _*Musicians*_ to honor the Spirit of the Music while learning it. Crikeys, you'd think I was a musician or something.

As for you, _Rachmanijohn_, it's pistols at dawn, down by the river.


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## moody

Rachmanijohn said:


> You seriously want to get caught up on my use of the word "dick" when I'm trying to defend guy after Ukko was being a complete ******* to him just because he wanted to learn a movement of a Beethoven Sonata. I mean how dare anyone especially a learner do incomplete works? Are you blind to how Ukko was treating him? I rest my case. Namaste.


Yes I do because you had put the case quite adequately and your final "dick" remark was completely unnecessary.
This is quite apart from who is right or wrong and it is against the rules that you agreed to.


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## Ingélou

:tiphat: Hats off to all you listeners who will only listen to complete pieces in one go, and all you musicians who will only attempt a piece if they have the skill to play all the parts. 

But how did you get to be so perfect? Presumably, all at once, since you never do anything in bits. 

I am imperfect, myself. But more than that, I believe that you learn by breaking things down into manageable pieces and then building them up.


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## Ukko

Ingélou said:


> :tiphat: Hats off to all you listeners who will only listen to complete pieces in one go, and all you musicians who will only attempt a piece if they have the skill to play all the parts.
> 
> But how did you get to be so perfect? Presumably, all at once, since you never do anything in bits.
> 
> I am imperfect, myself. But more than that, I believe that you learn by breaking things down into manageable pieces and then building them up.


Hah. That belief is part of your charming imperfection, dear woman. If you learn bits and pieces, you have the very difficult chore of melding them together into a... work that works as a work.


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## KenOC

Ukko said:


> Hah. That belief is part of your charming imperfection, dear woman. If you learn bits and pieces, you have the very difficult chore of melding them together into a... work that works as a work.


Through the magic of the iPod playlist, I have gotten into the habit of mixing and matching Beethoven sonata movements to create whole new works. Given the deep discernment of my taste, these are often superior to Ludwig's own feeble attempts!


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## Ukko

KenOC said:


> Through the magic of the iPod playlist, I have gotten into the habit of mixing and matching Beethoven sonata movements to create whole new works. Given the deep discernment of my taste, these are often superior to Ludwig's own feeble attempts!


Sure. You may be able to mixnmatch to get all the movements to at least start in the same key!


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## KenOC

Ukko said:


> Sure. You may be able to mixnmatch to get all the movements to at least start in the same key!


Key Schmey! I like variety -- and the sudden shock of an unrelated key! In any event, the free program Audacity can transpose nicely without changing the tempo, if required.


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## Ingélou

Ukko said:


> Hah. That belief is part of your charming imperfection, dear woman. If you learn bits and pieces, you have the very difficult chore of melding them together into a... work that works as a work.


So - you learned your alphabet all at once, and only began a book when you'd estimated that you had the skill to cope from start to finish? Obviously the A-level examiners had a strange idea when they only set Books I & II of Paradise Lost for me to teach!


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## Ukko

Ingélou said:


> So - you learned your alphabet all at once, and only began a book when you'd estimated that you had the skill to cope from start to finish? Obviously the A-level examiners had a strange idea when they only set Books I & II of Paradise Lost for me to teach!


Well Jeez. And here I had the notion that Talk Classical referred to music. Classical music.


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## guy

Ukko said:


> Sure. You may be able to mixnmatch to get all the movements to at least start in the same key!


That's not the point of the different movements of a sonata, though! If it was like that, then it'd all be quite... bland. However, it would be interesting to see how Beethoven treats works in different keys differently as time goes on.


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## Animato

If I’m not mistaken: it is a common practice also among pianists (vs pianoplayers) to play single pieces from Bach’s partitas as encores in their concerts. 

Guy, as long as you don’t earn your living with piano-playing, you may play single movements, whole works, parts of movements as long as you like to.

Back to Beethoven Sonatas: I join the recommendations for op. 10 no. 2 F-Major. It is a very nice work for piano-players (pianists ???) who start with Beethoven Sonatas. I liked to play it – all movements – but nearly never in the same session ;-) ;-) ;-)

regards Animato


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## guy

Animato said:


> If I'm not mistaken: it is a common practice also among pianists (vs pianoplayers) to play single pieces from Bach's partitas as encores in their concerts.
> 
> Guy, as long as you don't earn your living with piano-playing, you may play single movements, whole works, parts of movements as long as you like to.
> 
> Back to Beethoven Sonatas: I join the recommendations for op. 10 no. 2 F-Major. It is a very nice work for piano-players (pianists ???) who start with Beethoven Sonatas. I liked to play it - all movements - but nearly never in the same session ;-) ;-) ;-)
> 
> regards Animato


If I made my living with anything, I'd be completely surprised. :B Thank you for your advice!


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## Guest

moody said:


> Does "dick" have a different meaning in America from what's understood in the UK ?


If it follows "spotted," isn't it something - at least by British standards - that is edible?


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## mikey

As a general rule, it's probably best to avoid playing single movts in major performances. I don't think most free lunch time concerts for eg would have a problem with movts. (It's always nice to play a complete work though)
However, if you wish to learn a piece, then learn it. If you would like to play a complete work, pick one you know you could play, or perhaps stretches you just that bit. 
- Sight read through it, you should know what you can handle.
- Ask your teacher! They will know your playing and which direction to push you better than us.
- If Beethoven is too difficult 'technically' for the time being, try Haydn, Mozart, Schubert or even Clementi (some of the easier ones).

If you want to develop your playing further, there's no point in playing something you're going to coast through. If you want to learn for fun, then to hell with what anybody says.


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## guy

My teacher found a book of Beethoven sonatas at an early advanced level, so that's a good start. No need for this topic now, I suppose, unless we're still debating that movement vs piece crap.


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## stevederekson

My favourite sonata is No. 15 "Pastorale".


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## Pastoral

There is no way I can play a whole piece, no matter how I want to. I tried playing the following movements, although very badly. I don't think they are overly formidable. 

Sonata #1 (op2-no1): 1st and 4th movements
Sonata #3 (op2-no3): 2nd movement
Sonata #5 (op10-no1): 1st movement
Sonata #7 (op10-no3): 2nd movement
Sonata #8 (op13): 2nd movement. 1st and 3rd are very exciting, but my neighbors would disagree.
Sonata #10 (op14-no2): 1st movement
Sonata #14 (op27-no2): 1st movement
Sonata #15 (op28): 2nd movement
Sonata #17 (op31-no2): 2nd and 3rd movement
Sonata #19 (op49-no1):
Sonata #23 (op57): 2nd movement
Sonata #25 (op79): 2nd movement

I wish I could continue, but even my blindly brave attempt stops here. I haven't tried Op10-no2. Based on the recommendation here, I will try now.

EDIT: I just realized Guy does not need any more recommendation. So no point in my posting. Please ignore.


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## hpowders

I recommend the magnificent set of the complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas by Annie Fischer, if you can still find it.


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## violadude

starthrower said:


> Personally, I would love to be able to play the 2nd movt of the Pathetique. For me, it's the most beautiful thing Beethoven ever wrote.


That's the only one I can play, pretty much.


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## DavidA

mikey said:


> As a general rule, it's probably best to avoid playing single movts in major performances.
> 
> I don't
> If you want to develop your playing further, there's no point in playing something you're going to coast through. If you want to learn for fun, then to hell with what anybody says.


I must say as a general rule other people think it 's best to avoid my praying whatever I play!

There is also very little music I coast through.

I play for my own pleasure simply because no-one listening gets much pleasure out of my playing, I fear!


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## DavidA

hpowders said:


> I recommend the magnificent set of the complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas by Annie Fischer, if you can still find it.


She was a very interesting pianist.


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## KenOC

Just a note that Beethoven's sonatas were considered quite difficult in his own time, when there were plenty of good amateur pianists around. They're just as difficult today!


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## Matsps

For stuff of a similar technical level to what you have already learnt: 

Pathetiqué 2nd movement 
2nd movement of the "Moonlight" sonata you already learnt the 1st movement of. 
Sonata Op.49 No.1 

To be honest, quite a lot of the popular sonatas are pretty difficult. The first movement of the pathetiqué is tricky to play well and Waldstein is super difficult (especially the 3rd movement). Beethoven sonatas are a limited set to pick from until you're at diploma level unfortunately. =/


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## hpowders

For those of you don't think so try the Hammerklavier.

Also listen to what Annie Fischer does with it.


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## Peter Gibaloff

Pathetic
Moonlight
enough for life


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## Headphone Hermit

^^^ my ears have heard the rest of Beethoven's piano pieces .... and want them as well


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## DavidA

Just bought Serkin's sonatas and concertos. The sonatas I have had for some time. he didn't record all of them but what we have is remarkable. The performance of the Hammerklavier is as good as any!


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## hpowders

....Yes almost as fine as Annie Fischer's Hammerklavier.

R. Serkin is a good safe bet for any piano music by Beethoven or Brahms for the uninitiated.
You will not be disappointed. Occasionally his playing gets a bit "nervous" or "impatient" as in parts of the first movement of the Emperor Concerto-doesn't matter which recording-but that was his trademark.


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## Lord Lance

Are classical pianist/conductors today taught to play _movements _well? If I ever learn the piano, it would be an atrocity to leave a work mid-way. If I have the first movement mastered of the Hammerklavier [Going for the big one; read: impossible] I will learn the next three movements. Even if that means days of practice. I don't imagine teachers in the 30s and 40s going, "Marvellous execution of the first movement of Beethoven's Fourth Piano Sonata. Now, how about the third movement of Liszt's Totenanz ?

*NOTE: The poster is a wannabe computer programmer, chamber music neophyte. The reliability of his claims aren't tested.*


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## Lord Lance

Double posting - !


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## Vaneyes

OPie hasn't posted since June of last year. Anyway, *all* of *LvB* Piano Sonatas are recommended.
With Schnabel, and Gulda doing the honors.:tiphat:


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## DavidA

hpowders said:


> ....Yes almost as fine as Annie Fischer's Hammerklavier.
> 
> R. Serkin is a good safe bet for any piano music by Beethoven or Brahms for the uninitiated.
> You will not be disappointed. Occasionally his playing gets a bit "nervous" or "impatient" as in parts of the first movement of the Emperor Concerto-doesn't matter which recording-but that was his trademark.


Another very safe bet is Stephen Kovacevic. I've just bought a three CD set of a selection of Beethoven sonatas from him very cheap from Amazon. Be great for someone just coming to this music.


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## Albert7

I would like to add that Schnabel's versions are incredible too.


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## ToneDeaf&Senile

I'll draw your interest to a "special interest" recording of the Pathetique...on clavichord! The instrument has a marvelous sound with "clanky" lower end and sometimes a guitarish quality in the upper register. The third movement is decidedly slower than one normally hears it. This put me off at first, but I grew to enjoy it as a viable alternative to traditional tempi. I doubt this will be anyone's prime Pathetique, but it does make for fascinating listening.


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## Triplets

DavidA said:


> Just bought Serkin's sonatas and concertos. The sonatas I have had for some time. he didn't record all of them but what we have is remarkable. The performance of the Hammerklavier is as good as any!


That is a great set, and if I remember, an amazing bargain as well.


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## Triplets

hpowders said:


> ....Yes almost as fine as Annie Fischer's Hammerklavier.
> 
> R. Serkin is a good safe bet for any piano music by Beethoven or Brahms for the uninitiated.
> You will not be disappointed. Occasionally his playing gets a bit "nervous" or "impatient" as in parts of the first movement of the Emperor Concerto-doesn't matter which recording-but that was his trademark.


 I just ordered the complete Annie Fischer set. I had about 3 of the discs but was finding the rest difficult to obtain individually. She is amazing.


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## DavidA

DavidA said:


> Just bought Serkin's sonatas and concertos. The sonatas I have had for some time. he didn't record all of them but what we have is remarkable. The performance of the Hammerklavier is as good as any!


Just to note the set also contains a performance of the Diabelli variations that must come right near the top of the pile!


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## Crystal

Hammerklavier and Waldstein are both challenging.


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## KenOC

Crystal said:


> Hammerklavier and Waldstein are both challenging.


Demonstrates total mastery of the understatement. :lol:


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## eternum1968

The Patetique. In my opinion is the very best


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