# Der Ring des Nibelungen



## ShyBelgian (Nov 23, 2010)

I've been listening to Wagner's work lately, and something just struck me. In Das Rheingold Fafner is a Giant who, together with his brother, build Walhalla for Wotan and the Gods. After some intrigue he murders his brother and gets hold of the Ring. However, in the third opera of the series, Siegfried, he suddenly is ... a Dragon!! Is there any (logic?) explanation for this? I know, sometimes one musn't really think to find any logic when it comes to myths and legends, but this seems so awkward to me and can't really get it out of my head


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

not only did Fafner get the ring he also got a helmet( Alberich had Mime make a helmet, which can be used to turn the person into any animal he desires).
Remember in Das Rheingold, Alberich was tricked out of the ring and the helmet by stupidly turning himself into a frog. Fafner realized this, and simply used the helmet to turn himself into a dragon.


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## ShyBelgian (Nov 23, 2010)

of course, how stupid of me! Thanks for clearing that for me, life will be so much easier again now


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> not only did Fafner get the ring he also got a helmet( Alberich had Mime make a helmet, which can be used to turn the person into any animal he desires).
> Remember in Das Rheingold, Alberich was tricked out of the ring and the helmet by stupidly turning himself into a frog. Fafner realized this, and simply used the helmet to turn himself into a dragon.


Yes the dragon entity was created by giant Fafner using tarnhelm to protect the ring and gold treasure

Wotan originally promised the giants in exchange for building Valhalla they would get Freia goddess of youth (and sister of his wife which did not go over well) Also it dawned on Wotan that without the youthful powers of Freia the gods would begin to grow old (duh)......

In order to keep Freia Wotan had to promise in exchange the powerful ring and magical tarnhelm Nibelungs Mime & Alberich had made from the stolen rheingold, Wotan along with crafty Loge were able to trick Alberich and take these items from him to pay off the giants and save Freia


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*another site*

Have you noticed there is another site about this? Moderators work taking off what they don't like but never making a fusion of similar sites...

Martin


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Have you noticed there is another site about this? Moderators work taking off what they don't like but never making a fusion of similar sites...
> 
> Martin


Point 1: Actually, they do, just look at the "Post a photo of yourself" thread. That one was merged by Krummhorn.

Point 2: I think they are too busy saving us from reading [email protected] from multiple spammers to worry too much about people posting the same subject more than once.

Point 3: These people are volunteers and do a fine job.:tiphat:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Point 1: Actually, they do, just look at the "Post a photo of yourself" thread. That one was merged by Krummhorn.
> 
> Point 2: I think they are too busy saving us from reading [email protected] from multiple spammers to worry too much about people posting the same subject more than once.
> 
> Point 3: These people are volunteers and do a fine job.:tiphat:


 I've been learning Martin's ways. Some days he is out of control. Like today he posted his Rennee Fleming ticket and videos on the French Romantic thread or something. Then he takes on bashing the moderators.

Some other days he is calm and friendly and actually posts useful stuff.

Our Martin is a bit variable... But I'm learning to like the good parts.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

For anybody really interested in the mythological content of Wagner's Ring Cycle, I'd recommend reading _The Poetic Edda _a collection of Norse-Icelandic mythology.

I'm pretty sure Wagner got most of his ideas for his Ring Cycle from these ancient writings. I'll leave you with the summary on the back of the book and you'll see what I mean:

"The collection of Norse-Icelandic mythological and heroic poetry known as the _Poetic Edda_ contains the great narratives of the creation of the world and the coming of Ragnarok, the Doom of the Gods. The mythological poems explore the wisdom of the gods and giants, narrating Thor's adventures against the hostile giants and the gods' rivalries amongst themselves. The heroic poems trace the exploits of the hero Helgi and his valkyrie bride, the tragic tale of Sigurd and Brynhild's doomed love, and the terrible drama of Sigurd's widow Gudrun and her children.

Since the rediscovery of the_ Poetic Edda_ in the seventeenth century, its poetry has fascinated artists as diverse as Thomas Gray, Richard Wagner, and Jorge Luis Borges."

I remember reading it in college and also finding a LOT of similarities to Tolkein's Lord of the Rings series as well, but somehow not being able to fully convince my teacher of that influence. (I still think Tolkein had to have been influenced by these poems too). Just my opinion.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Moderators moderate yourselves!*

I've been learning Martin's ways. Some days he is out of control. Like today he posted his Rennee Fleming ticket and videos on the French Romantic thread or something. Then he takes on bashing the moderators.

When we need them (a guy insulted me (you are a layman, elitist, codescendent...etc) because I cannnot read a score) they are not there, when we say something like "you're green" to a 17 years old girl who is judging you..They censor you, they cut and you receive a notice!...(le monde à l'envers)...

Martin is Martin, Martin is passionate...and people once they know me more, they love me or hate me...I say what I think trying not to hurt. I don't think I hurt anyone here, I hope so. I'm trying to do my very best but I do not accept show off people or extremely young people saying that I cannot analyze music because I can't read it...I won't discuss here about that...you can go to the site "do you analyze music?" and see...

El mundo está lleno de boludos.

Martin


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> They censor you, they cut and you receive a notice!


Enjoy, censorship is very Russian. Just imagine you're XXth century journalist here and your posts are articles that you sent to be printed in "Pravda".


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*saddly*

Enjoy, censorship is very Russian. Just imagine you're XXth century journalist here and your posts are articles that you sent to be printed in "Pravda". 

saddly you are right...This is one of things I don't like from Russia or rather hate...Where are you from Aramis...I think you speak Arabic, don't you?

Martin , curious


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## Poppin' Fresh (Oct 24, 2009)

tdc said:


> For anybody really interested in the mythological content of Wagner's Ring Cycle, I'd recommend reading _The Poetic Edda _a collection of Norse-Icelandic mythology.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Wagner got most of his ideas for his Ring Cycle from these ancient writings..


Oh most definitely. The _Poetic Edda_ were one Wagner's main literary sources for _The Ring_, along with the _Nibelunglied_ and the _Volsunga Saga_. But he also relied on other minor legends like _Das Lied vom Hürnen Seyfrid_ and contemporary scholarship by writers like the Grimm Brothers, as well as their collections of fairy tales. Wagner combined, improvised on, and simplified this cornucopia of sources to fashion a unified narration.

Reading the source material is definitely fascinating stuff, but I would also highly recommend Deryck Cooke's _I Saw the World End: A Study of Wagner's Ring_. He investigates these original sources, provides a grand-scheme picture of how Wagner structured his drama based on them, and then goes scene by scene to show how Wagner weaved various elements from these narratives together to serve his own dramatic purposes and to get specific messages across through symbolism. Unfortunately Deryck Cooke died before he could complete the whole book, and only gets through his discussion of _Die Walküre_. But still an incredibly worthwhile and insightful read.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I've been learning Martin's ways. Some days he is out of control. Like today he posted his Rennee Fleming ticket and videos on the French Romantic thread or something. Then he takes on bashing the moderators.
> 
> When we need them (a guy insulted me (you are a layman, elitist, codescendent...etc) because I cannnot read a score) they are not there, when we say something like "you're green" to a 17 years old girl who is judging you..They censor you, they cut and you receive a notice!...(le monde à l'envers)...
> 
> ...


Martin, the moderators can't be at all places at the same time. They are nice people who love classical music and are doing - for free, mind you - the very important work of keeping this place free of spam and free of insulting pricks. I've been to boards that didn't have moderators, and my friend, it's a free for all, full of snobs and trolls, it's not fun at all. I quit one of such boards to come here, and I'm happy here, and happy with the job the moderators do - and I remind you again, for free.

The moderators are former users, just like our own Gaston, one of the nicest people here, a friendly, low-key, knowledgeable, level-headed guy we all love, who got "promoted" to moderator.

You know, these guys give - for free, I remind you - hours of their time to make this place more pleasant to us. I'd think some appreciation would be in order.

If you have trouble in some thread, use the "report abuse" button, and a moderator will get to it as soon as possible. Trust me, they are working for us, not against us.

As for yourself, I love you more than I hate you, man. You're colorful, you are outspoken, enthusiastic, you're a straight talker, you don't hold back, you're a refreshing breath of clean air.

Sometimes, however, you're annoying like hell! But that's OK, we can enjoy your free-spirit ways, and value your contributions anyway.

Just give the moderators a break, will you?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Poppin' Fresh said:


> Oh most definitely. The _Poetic Edda_ were one Wagner's main literary sources for _The Ring_, along with the _Nibelunglied_ and the _Volsunga Saga_. But he also relied on other minor legends like _Das Lied vom Hürnen Seyfrid_ and contemporary scholarship by writers like the Grimm Brothers, as well as their collections of fairy tales. Wagner combined, improvised on, and simplified this cornucopia of sources to fashion a unified narration.
> 
> Reading the source material is definitely fascinating stuff, but I would also highly recommend Deryck Cooke's _I Saw the World End: A Study of Wagner's Ring_. He investigates these original sources, provides a grand-scheme picture of how Wagner structured his drama based on them, and then goes scene by scene to show how Wagner weaved various elements from these narratives together to serve his own dramatic purposes and to get specific messages across through symbolism. Unfortunately Deryck Cooke died before he could complete the whole book, and only gets through his discussion of _Die Walküre_. But still an incredibly worthwhile and insightful read.


Yes, it's such a fascinating universe! And then, there is the music... Wow!
The Ring is enough for a lifetime of scholarly studies... I'm a humble fan, and I have read some of the books on it, and have listened to it a few times... and I love it. What a formidable work!


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

tdc said:


> For anybody really interested in the mythological content of Wagner's Ring Cycle, I'd recommend reading _The Poetic Edda _a collection of Norse-Icelandic mythology.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Wagner got most of his ideas for his Ring Cycle from these ancient writings. I'll leave you with the summary on the back of the book and you'll see what I mean:
> 
> ...


The Eddas (Both the Poetic and Prose one) really are awesome. Them Norse gods were a rowdy bunch, let me tell you. But it does annoy me that the gods in the Ring's names are so different from the Norse ones (at least the male ones). And some of the non-gods too, for that matter.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback ^^ Aksel, Poppin Fresh, Almaviva. I am going to check out all book titles mentioned including the so-called 'prose' version Edda. I do love them rowdy Norse Gods.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

You know, these guys give - for free, I remind you - hours of their time to make this place more pleasant to us. I'd think some appreciation would be in order.

If you have trouble in some thread, use the "report abuse" button, and a moderator will get to it as soon as possible. Trust me, they are working for us, not against us.

As for yourself, I love you more than I hate you, man. You're colorful, you are outspoken, enthusiastic, you're a straight talker, you don't hold back, you're a refreshing breath of clean air.

Sometimes, however, you're annoying like hell! But that's OK, we can enjoy your free-spirit ways, and value your contributions anyway.

Just give the moderators a break, will you? 

Thanks a lot, Almaviva. I can say the same things about you...You are more measured than me though...LOL

Martin


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