# "Too sexy" pianists...music or miniskirts???



## Denerah Bathory

I've noticed a trend among certain solo pianists of the fair sex (women) dressing in ways that are aesthetically-inappropriate and physically indecent for classical music concerts. My issue revolves less around consideration for the audience (I.e. older conservative folks and young children), although this is still an issue when we want to ensure a family-friendly atmosphere. One doesn't expect mini skirts and barely-concealed breasts during a Brahms concerto....this isn't a performance of Salome!!! Obviously I wouldn't take a child to see Salome or Lulu, but I feel we should keep recitals safe as it's really the music that matters most.

"Music matters most!"...now this is the main reason I object to scantily clad female soloists...it's downright distracting, and doesn't suit the sound of classical music. I think that dressing like a stripper actually diminishes the credibility of the performer, and likewise diminishes the value of the music in "try hard" attempts to appeal to perverted men. 

The soloist and orchestra/conductor are obviously going to deliver an original performance of a concerto, however--it is still honoring a composer. Yuja Wang, and Lola Astanova this is NOT about you, it's about whatever piece you're performing, and I'd appreciate less of your eccentric or downright provocative antics!

And this is coming from a straight man, so there's weight to these remarks seeing as most "real men" wouldn't complain.


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## N Fowleri

I respect your desire not to go to certain concerts because of what the performer is wearing or not wearing. That is entirely up to you.

For me, I really don't care at all what the musician, no matter the gender, is wearing or not wearing. I certainly wouldn't prefer a nude musician, but it wouldn't be a problem for me.

I also don't believe seeing nudity harms children or the elderly. Of course, when I say nudity doesn't harm anybody, I am very definitely not including sexual or sexually-suggestive behavior, which can be inappropriate even in fully-clothed individuals.


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## Barbebleu

Denerah Bathory said:


> And this is coming from a straight man, so there's weight to these remarks seeing as most "real men" wouldn't complain.


Well you don’t look like a straight man from your picture!😏


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## NoCoPilot

Popular entertainment is 90% marketing, 10% art. Sex sells. If it didn't it wouldn't be used as marketing.

So your naive question shouldn't be about "inappropriate" attire, it should be about audiences who like cleavage and leg. You may claim to not be among them... but you noticed, didn't you?


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## Becca

Speaking from the female perspective I would say that the OP says far more about the poster than it does about the topic, particularly the "physically indecent for classical music concerts" comment.


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## N Fowleri

I know a lot of Leif Segerstam's recent popularity has been due to his sex appeal.


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## Denerah Bathory

Becca said:


> Speaking from the female perspective I would say that the OP says far more about the poster than it does about the topic, particularly the "physically indecent for classical music concerts" comment.


What does it say about me exactly? Since you're clearly aiming for a strawman here, I'll dismantle that even before you have a chance to make it! What I mean by physically indecent is this: classical music is noble and often religious in nature, even symphonies were written by men devout to god and church and so the spiritual element permeates throughout--this can simply be called inspiration...my point is that ****ty and degenerate dressing, fit for a crack *****, is not right in our world...this belongs in the trashy hip hop world which, like most other forms of hyper-sexual entertainment, are degenerate products of the modern world I believe is the root of our decline as a Western Civilization. 

I think that a woman is most beautiful when modest, to allow her true Beauty to radiate as the Eternal Feminine. While I am not necessarily Catholic/Christian, I am a Traditionalist, or some say "Perennial School", in the style of Julius Evola or Rene Guenon. We must return to a wholesome traditional world and not fall for the "progressive" trap, where apparently "reckless sexuality" is a sign of "evolution"??? Since when has explicit and provocative behavior been a sign of Refinement, to me it's just savagery and primitive "caveman" behavior. Sub human and degenerate


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## Becca

Thank you for proving my (non-strawman) point.


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## Denerah Bathory

Barbebleu said:


> Well you don’t look like a straight man from your picture!😏


If somebody posts a picture of a tomato do you identify them as a tomato? Seriously, focus on the topic and stop trying to dodge the issue with strawman arguments. I chose a picture that means something to me personally, and it isn't necessary "me" at this moment, nor at some other...I don't feel the need to flaunt my own physique, it is irrelevant.


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## Denerah Bathory

Becca said:


> Thank you for proving my (non-strawman) point.


You seemed to insinuate something else, and besides, at least I took the time to explain myself clearly, unlike most people on the internet who leave snarky one-liners or highlight a throwaway remark as a substance to argue with. Or simply single out a profile pic...
I just find that this world is disgusting, I despise everything modern, when it comes to morals, secularism, and social "nonsense" and I don't want any of that in Classical Music which is the last stronghold for a wholesome Hyperborean glory.


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## NoCoPilot

Offended Canadian said:


> ...belongs in the trashy hip hop world which, like most other forms of hyper-sexual entertainment, are degenerate products of the modern world I believe is the root of our decline as a Western Civilization.


Hoo-boy. That's really stepping in it. What you're doing here, if you stop to ponder a moment, is PROJECTING. You're telling the world that everyone else needs to conform to your own standards of decency.

Well, that ain't gonna happen. The sooner you realize that, the less angst you'll experience.


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## Denerah Bathory

Becca said:


> Thank you for proving my (non-strawman) point.


Seems like you prove a point made by Jordan Peterson, that men are "not allowed" to voice any concerns or criticisms on anything these days...


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## Shaughnessy

In the interests of full disclosure - this is the exact quote from the member's New Member introduction page -



Denerah Bathory said:


> *I present myself by the legally-affirmed name Denerah Bathory, while many would know me as esoteric author Denerah Erzebet.*


Here's the New Member page for verification -









Greetings


I present myself by the legally-affirmed name Denerah Bathory, while many would know me as esoteric author Denerah Erzebet. I currently reside in Ontario Canada, however just like my name and avatar I do not identify as Canadian but incline myself rather towards my ancestral past, being of...




www.talkclassical.com





Here's the Amazon author page -



Amazon.com



Here's the description from "*The Eleventh Degree: A Draconian Mystic Workbook" *which is part of a trilogy - 

*The Eleventh Degree offers a practical manual of Typhonian sex magic, free of Crowley’s archaic jargon and tedious moralizing*. Detailed instructions are given for successful operations of the VIII, IX, and XI degrees of Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO) informed and enhanced by Kenneth Grant’s Typhonian Tradition, whereby the Adept is gradually-initiated by the three primary powers behind all evolution: the Daemon, the Beloved, and the Nameless Substratum. *Unlike previous books, The Eleventh Degree extends sex magic beyond the confines of biology, embracing the wider spectrum of erotic ideation. *It is only by desiring Some-Thing that anything is achieved, so that only through esoteric evolution may we incarnate new worlds of Instinctive Iconography—the perfected manifestation of all that we desire here, now, and forevermore. 

Here's the description from "*A Star Called Winter*" -

Unlock the third and final book of The Draconian Trilogy to experience direct gnosis with the Goddess in this uncensored living grimoire.

Learn the occult principles of Mythical Mutation, Supernatural Selection & Ecstatic Delusion
Self-initiate to unveil your own pantheon in the Eternal Conservatory of Creative Perfection
Create your own Magick Map with a series of Tarot, Enochian & Goetic correspondences
The Goddess commands, “*You are your own grimoire*” — learn how to invest in yourself
Meticulous scrutiny of key Germanic & Pagan myths and etymology to awaken godforms
*Here's what "grimoire" means -*

The term grimoire is *a general name given to a variety of texts setting out the names of demons and instructions on how to raise them*. Effectively a grimoire is a book of black magic, a book on which a wizard relied for all the necessary advice and instruction on raising spirits and casting spells.

Here are two chapter titles from "A Star Called Winter" which is the third book of the trilogy -

5. Nocturne
This chapter uses twilight language to illustrate the *profound impact of sexuality, growth, and religion in the awakening of spiritual powers in human beings*.

6. Strange Lady
Here the *phenomenon of youth growth is discussed in relation to erotic magic*, and *how we must use our erotic preferences in ritual work. *

Here's the author description -

Denerah Erzebet is an initiate of the Temple of Ascending Flame founded by Asenath Mason, and specializes in the following methods of Kenneth Grant’s Typhonian Tradition: dream work, sigil sorcery, and Otherworldly contact. As a classically-trained composer, Denerah channels Hyperborean majesty through symphonies, concertos, and Wagnerian opera—a total life-work for those who recognize the power of the Eternal Race.


Now that we have that out of the way...

Having an "initiate of the Temple of Ascending Flame" who sets out the names of demons and instructions on how to raise them - who's written a manual on Typhonian sex magic "without the tedious moralizing" - who "extends sex magic beyond the confines of biology, embracing the wider spectrum of erotic ideation" - probably shouldn't lecture anyone about - "dressing in ways that are aesthetically-inappropriate and physically indecent" - "mini skirts and barely-concealed breasts" - "object to scantily clad female soloists" - or Yuja Wang's slit skirts.

To be who you are and to yet be able to write *"*this is NOT about you, it's about whatever piece you're performing*, and I'd appreciate less of your eccentric or downright provocative antics!" - *without laughing out loud - let me just say "Right back at you, Denerah, right back at you..."


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## mmsbls

Denerah Bathory said:


> ...my point is that *ty and degenerate dressing, fit for a crack **, is not right in our world...this belongs in the trashy hip hop world which, like most other forms of hyper-sexual entertainment, are degenerate products of the modern world I believe is the root of our decline as a Western Civilization.
> 
> I think that a woman is most beautiful when modest, to allow her true Beauty to radiate as the Eternal Feminine. While I am not necessarily Catholic/Christian, I am a Traditionalist, or some say "Perennial School", in the style of Julius Evola or Rene Guenon. We must return to a wholesome traditional world and not fall for the "progressive" trap, where apparently "reckless sexuality" is a sign of "evolution"??? Since when has explicit and provocative behavior been a sign of Refinement, to me it's just savagery and primitive "caveman" behavior. Sub human and degenerate


This comment seems to have nothing to do with classical music. You are simply decrying the modern world.



Denerah Bathory said:


> ...I just find that this world is disgusting, I despise everything modern, when it comes to morals, secularism, and social "nonsense" ...


Again you rant against modernity. This forum is not the place for such expressions of hatred toward our world. If you wish to discuss proper dress for classical music performance, you can do so as long as the discussion remains _closely_ tied to classical music.


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## Shaughnessy

Denerah Bathory said:


> *While I am not necessarily Catholic/Christian, I am a Traditionalist,* or some say "Perennial School", in the style of Julius Evola or Rene Guenon. We must *return to a wholesome traditional world* and not fall for the "progressive" trap, where apparently "reckless sexuality" is a sign of "evolution"??? Since when has explicit and provocative behavior been a sign of Refinement,* to me it's just savagery and primitive "caveman" behavior. Sub human and degenerate*


Once you write "*a practical manual of Typhonian sex magic, free of Crowley’s archaic jargon and tedious moralizing" - *you can safely leave out the "not necessarily" part and just go with "While I am not Catholic/Christian..."

"return to a wholesome traditional world" - sounds kind of like the good ol' days - when neighbors knew their neighbors and we didn't have to lock our doors and the milkman would make morning deliveries and people said "Please" and "thank you" and we all practiced "dream work, sigil sorcery, and Otherworldly contact" and when Frank Sinatra sang "That old black magic has me in it's spell" he meant it literally and in "Witchcraft" when he sang "'Cause there's no nicer witch than you" he wasn't talking about Ava Gardner.

"just savagery and primitive "caveman" behavior. Sub human and degenerate" - as opposed to "extending sex magic beyond the confines of biology, embracing the wider spectrum of erotic ideation" along with ruling out the OP as a candidate for any future "Humanitarian of the Year" awards...

The lesson to be learned - "Words can come back to haunt you" - and just in case I'm on the receiving end of a spell of some sort - or a hex or a jinx or a curse or whatever mumbo jumbo hoodoo voodoo you doo - I'm not afraid - I have five sisters - They're Irish - If I can survive that, I can survive anything you throw my way...


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## Denerah Bathory

Shaughnessy said:


> Once you write "*a practical manual of Typhonian sex magic, free of Crowley’s archaic jargon and tedious moralizing" - *you can safely leave out the "not necessarily" part and just go with "While I am not Catholic/Christian..."
> 
> "return to a wholesome traditional world" - the "good old days" - You know, when we all practiced "dream work, sigil sorcery, and Otherworldly contact"
> 
> "to me it's just savagery and primitive "caveman" behavior. Sub human and degenerate" - as opposed to "extending sex magic beyond the confines of biology, embracing the wider spectrum of erotic ideation"


You have not read my books, which involve the use of sex and lust directed to noble purposes, we speak here of Alchemical Transmutation...I do NOT advocate reckless indulgence, and what I meant by Crowley's moralizing was his strong insistence on delineating "white and black" magic, when I simply give Adepts the tools required to do whatever they like, although as you read through my Draconian Trilogy I purposely show my own journey from "modern angsty youth" to wholesome adept, this occurred from the ages of 22 to 28, where I am currently situated if chronology even matters.

I encourage others to take chaos and make order out of it--Ordo ab chao--and to make good men better as the Masons would say. It is about transmuting impurities, and hence the references to sex, how to resolve one's demons. And may I add that I do not practice demonic magick, there are no demons that is just Catholic propaganda. There are only spirits, of all sorts, but no such "evil" as a ontological fact. We create our own damnation, which is the modern world

It's not about denying all sex, it's about situating the RIGHT TIME AND PLACE for such things, and classical music is not a place for sexuality! We need more boundaries. Also, I think it is more important to view my books as a journey, a way of dealing with temptation and sin as someone who is imperfect yet evolving, since nobody is perfect. We can easily dig up things to scandalize a politician for a drunken party he attended 20 years ago, what matters is who we are now, where we are going...which way, western man?


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## Denerah Bathory

mmsbls said:


> This comment seems to have nothing to do with classical music. You are simply decrying the modern world.
> 
> 
> 
> Again you rant against modernity. This forum is not the place for such expressions of hatred toward our world. If you wish to discuss proper dress for classical music performance, you can do so as long as the discussion remains _closely_ tied to classical music.


I am replying to an above remark, and do i need to spell out how it is relevant....I assume people here can connect the dots themselves, they don't need "regieoper" to spoonfeed it to them, so I won't do the same.


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## Denerah Bathory

mmsbls said:


> This comment seems to have nothing to do with classical music. You are simply decrying the modern world.
> 
> 
> 
> Again you rant against modernity. This forum is not the place for such expressions of hatred toward our world. If you wish to discuss proper dress for classical music performance, you can do so as long as the discussion remains _closely_ tied to classical music.


I am not hateful, I am RIGHT! Anyone who believes this world is deserving of respect deserves to perish with it! This world is truly messed up. This is not our world, we must built a better one


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## Denerah Bathory

Of course, even in this forum, I find people to disagree with, everywhere I go I see symptoms of the disease...I thought this place was better than facebook, guess I find the same nonsense here too


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## Shaughnessy

Denerah Bathory said:


> *I am not hateful, I am RIGHT! Anyone who believes this world is deserving of respect deserves to perish with it! *This world is truly messed up. This is not our world, we must built a better one


This is what a thread looks like when it's being derailed by it's own creator... Kind of like a train-wreck...Wait... Make that... Exactly like a train-wreck


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## Captainnumber36

I think anything that's from the heart and is inspired with a beautiful mind is ok. But we should be made aware before buying tickets what we are in store for.


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## prlj

What a mess. Can we just go back to arguing about the artistic merits of Despacito?


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## NoCoPilot

Denerah Bathory said:


> ...everywhere I go I see symptoms of the disease...I thought this place was better than facebook, guess I find the same nonsense here too


There's a word for people who think everyone else in the world is wrong, and only THEY are right.


Proud Mother said:


> Oh look at my son, marching with his regiment. He's the ONLY ONE who is in step!


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## Bulldog

Both sexuality and classical music are good things that match up quite well. Let's ask Scriabin.


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## mikeh375

I agree @Bulldog it makes for 
great theatre too.


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## BachIsBest

When you click on the thread hoping for respectful discussion on the appropriate attire for a classical music concert and then .


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## mossyembankment

Denerah Bathory said:


> What does it say about me exactly? Since you're clearly aiming for a strawman here, I'll dismantle that even before you have a chance to make it! What I mean by physically indecent is this: classical music is noble and often religious in nature, even symphonies were written by men devout to god and church and so the spiritual element permeates throughout--this can simply be called inspiration...my point is that *ty and degenerate dressing, fit for a crack **, is not right in our world...this belongs in the trashy hip hop world which, like most other forms of hyper-sexual entertainment, are degenerate products of the modern world I believe is the root of our decline as a Western Civilization.
> 
> I think that a woman is most beautiful when modest, to allow her true Beauty to radiate as the Eternal Feminine. While I am not necessarily Catholic/Christian, I am a Traditionalist, or some say "Perennial School", in the style of Julius Evola or Rene Guenon. We must return to a wholesome traditional world and not fall for the "progressive" trap, where apparently "reckless sexuality" is a sign of "evolution"??? Since when has explicit and provocative behavior been a sign of Refinement, to me it's just savagery and primitive "caveman" behavior. Sub human and degenerate


Good lord. Please crawl back under your rock.


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## fbjim

But is the book any good?


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## Merl

Next up, Stephen Hough in a mankini.


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## pianozach

Denerah Bathory said:


> I've noticed a trend among certain solo pianists of the fair sex (women) dressing in ways that are aesthetically-inappropriate and physically indecent for classical music concerts. My issue revolves less around consideration for the audience (I.e. older conservative folks and young children), although this is still an issue when we want to ensure a family-friendly atmosphere. One doesn't expect mini skirts and barely-concealed breasts during a Brahms concerto....this isn't a performance of Salome!!! Obviously I wouldn't take a child to see Salome or Lulu, but I feel we should keep recitals safe as it's really the music that matters most.
> 
> "Music matters most!"...now this is the main reason I object to scantily clad female soloists...it's downright distracting, and doesn't suit the sound of classical music. I think that dressing like a stripper actually diminishes the credibility of the performer, and likewise diminishes the value of the music in "try hard" attempts to appeal to perverted men.
> 
> The soloist and orchestra/conductor are obviously going to deliver an original performance of a concerto, however--it is still honoring a composer. Yuja Wang, and Lola Astanova this is NOT about you, it's about whatever piece you're performing, and I'd appreciate less of your eccentric or downright provocative antics!
> 
> And this is coming from a straight man, so there's weight to these remarks seeing as most "real men" wouldn't complain.


Oh, but it IS about "them". They have found a way to commercially sexualize Classical Music, for better or worse. And they're not the only Classical musicians and singers that dress provacatively, and certainly not the first. Women have been proudly displaying their cleavage for many decades.

And I see plenty of female soloists with bare shoulders, bare backs, cleavage, and legs. And tight dresses.


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## Dedalus

Stop clutching your pearls and let women wear what they want.


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## Chilham

Denerah Bathory said:


> ... And this is coming from a straight man, so there's weight to these remarks .....


But it's more complex than that, right?


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## NoCoPilot

pianozach said:


> Women have been proudly displaying their cleavage for many decades.


Longer than that.


pianozach said:


> And I see plenty of female soloists with bare shoulders, bare backs, cleavage, and legs. And tight dresses.


Because it sells tickets. They're no fools.

If Denerah wants to be offended, let him restrict himself to Amish barn raisings.


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## Shaughnessy

fbjim said:


> *But is the book any good?*


It's a trilogy of three "workbooks" that are intended to instruct novices on how to summon demons - Give it a try and let us know how that works out for you...

"Summoning demons" is second from last on the "List of Things to do with Demons"...

The last thing on the list is "Needlessly antagonizing them" - They hate that...


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## NoCoPilot

I suppose a book about demons is pretty easy to write. No fact checking required!


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## mmsbls

The thread has moved into problematic areas. It's temporarily closed.


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