# Envy



## teknoaxe (Apr 17, 2010)

So, you probably already know, from my previous posts here, that I've developed an interest in writing orchestral cinematic/thematic music with a wide array of instruments. Currently, I've invested about 300 dollars into various samples/soundfonts and scoured the internet for free soundfonts that plug in to VSampler, which is my main sampler in Sonar.

Can I get better? Yes! But god does it take a bit of money to do so! There are limits to what I can do by the nature of the VSampler and midi composition. Articulation is one of them, that in some ways, I can hide through layering, but in other ways just falls completely dead in its tracks if I don't.

I've actually posted one of my songs onto TuneCore.com to see how well it will do. We will see in a couple weeks, but I fear that it doesn't quite measure up in sound quality as some of the other compositions out there.

If I had, say...the EastWest Hollywood Strings instrument:
http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-Strings-pr-EW-190WIN.html

I couldn't begin to imagine any limits to what I would do. That's quite a bit of investment, though. That blows away my 300 dollar investment many times over. The question becomes, then; is it worth the investment? If I'm good at composition and I compose a great piece, will it return my investment if I put it up for people to consume?

I guess we'll see from this whole TuneCore thing, again.  Just thought I would vent thoughts about this.


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## MJTTOMB (Dec 16, 2007)

Do you even have a decent notation program?


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## teknoaxe (Apr 17, 2010)

MJTTOMB said:


> Do you even have a decent notation program?


To answer your question, I really don't know. Although there probably is something along those lines in Cakewalk Sonar Producer 8.0, which I use as my primary music program.

My only concern, at this point, is to write and produce good music that sounds real and is awesome to listen to. I want to make music as if the orchestra was actually there in front of me and put my ideas in my head into reality.

That's it.


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## MJTTOMB (Dec 16, 2007)

So you want to write for an orchestra like the greats, but you're using a piano roll rather than notation software as your primary method of composition? I'd really discourage writing in that way. It helps develop a rudimentary understanding of the music, but until you start writing with notation you really won't hear your works becoming anything similar to the greats, your music is bound to sound as though it was written with a program like cakewalk. If you compare my earlier works that were "composed" using the piano roll in garageband, you'll find that they really lack much substance compared to works i've written using Finale and Sibelius.


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## teknoaxe (Apr 17, 2010)

I will look into it then. I'm sure the notation view would afford me some readability into what I'm doing.

There are some advantages to the piano roll, though. With the piano roll, I can view multiple instruments at the same time and choose which one I want to edit. And in this way, I have my Bass separated from my Cello separated from my Viola etc. All of those instruments are panned into the correct positions as a normal orchestra would me. A similar feature may exist for a notation view, but I'm not sure.

Crescendos and Decrescendos are handled by the individual .midi sliders, which I'm not sure how that would even work in notation software. By its very nature, these things are somewhat subjective in notation software, where in midi composition you need to specify exactly what you want.


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## MJTTOMB (Dec 16, 2007)

Notation programs align instruments as they would appear in a score, so all instruments are presented at the same time and can be read vertically just like one would read a score. Sibelius also allows you to pan instruments to their respective positions on a stereo, and allows you to create crescendos, decrescendos, changes in tempo, meter, etc. Astonishingly enough, before decrescendos and crescendos were midi sliders ranging from 0 to 127, they were symbols that were read and interpreted by read performers from a piece of sheet music that was notated with staffs rather than with a piano roll.

Here's the thing. You claim to want a "real orchestra sound", yet you limit yourself by using soundfonts and software that really do nothing to stimulate artistic or musical thinking. You want the sound, but you're unwilling to write out the notes in such a way that they could be understood easily by any music scholar without considerable trouble via attempting to read a piano roll. If you want an real orchestra sound, pretend like you're writing for a real orchestras. John Williams notates everything, because real players have to play it to make it sound like a real orchestra. Zimmer uses software only in the initial stages of composition, everything is notated such that real musicians would be able to play it.

Riddle me this, this will be my final point. Piano rolls existed back into the days of Debussy, and he recorded several that can be played back on player pianos. However, although these rolls capture the essence of what the composer intended, are they practical? Can someone sit down at the player piano with the piano roll stretched out in front of them and attempt to read and play it for themselves? Absolutely not. It is a good medium perhaps for the recording of works, but I would argue that the composition must be done in some way through notation.


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## teknoaxe (Apr 17, 2010)

MJTTOMB said:


> Notation programs align instruments as they would appear in a score, so all instruments are presented at the same time and can be read vertically just like one would read a score.


Fair enough. I actually just discovered the Staff View of Sonar, and I see now, you can do this on that program.



> Astonishingly enough, before decrescendos and crescendos were midi sliders ranging from 0 to 127, they were symbols that were read and interpreted by read performers from a piece of sheet music that was notated with staffs rather than with a piano roll.


Yes. I realize there's a difference between the two. For me, though, I'm not rich enough to hire an orchestra for any sort of time.



> Here's the thing. You claim to want a "real orchestra sound", yet you limit yourself by using soundfonts and software that really do nothing to stimulate artistic or musical thinking.


But technology has come a long way even in the last few years, though. Soundfonts are limiting, but instruments that are being developed by people like EastWest are beginning to make them look about as Archaic as caveman drawings on stone. But they cost a little bit of money to implement.



> Riddle me this, this will be my final point. Piano rolls existed back into the days of Debussy, and he recorded several that can be played back on player pianos. However, although these rolls capture the essence of what the composer intended, are they practical? Can someone sit down at the player piano with the piano roll stretched out in front of them and attempt to read and play it for themselves? Absolutely not. It is a good medium perhaps for the recording of works, but I would argue that the composition must be done in some way through notation.


I am very well aware of the limitations of a piano player and each instrument.






My last piece, "A Lulliby for James", has a piano part that I was sort of stressing about because I've got literally three parts on it: the melody at the top, the floaty counter-melody in the middle that's supplemented by the harp, and then the pedal tones at the bottom. So two people can play this, though right? But also, I have seen a video where this girl plays pedal tones with her toe. It's quite amazing, actually, but I do try to keep the consideration of the instrument in mind while writing in the part.

In that same vein, each instrument is separated out and has, at most, three parts to it, if more than one. The DoubleBass has it's own .midi track, the Cello has its own midi track and so on. If you look at my composition, none of the string tracks will have more than one note playing at a time. For things like trombones and trumpets, there are no more than two notes at the same time, accounting for 1st and 2nd parts and very rarely do I put in a 3rd part. In this way, if I were to hit the button and have Sonar automatically print out scores, I'm pretty sure an orchestra could play at least the notes. Whether things like crescendos show up is another matter.


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## teknoaxe (Apr 17, 2010)

MJTTOMB said:


> Riddle me this, this will be my final point. Piano rolls existed back into the days of Debussy, and he recorded several that can be played back on player pianos. However, although these rolls capture the essence of what the composer intended, are they practical? Can someone sit down at the player piano with the piano roll stretched out in front of them and attempt to read and play it for themselves? Absolutely not. It is a good medium perhaps for the recording of works, but I would argue that the composition must be done in some way through notation.


Ah, but that was not your point. My apologies. The only real answer I can give to this is that you are right. No musician should be expected to read a piano roll and play what's going on. I guess my first point kind of paints a picture on this one, in that I kind of express the fact that I'm not rich enough to hire an orchestra to do any sort of recording work. Being a musician is not my primary profession, although, you are right, I should probably learn to write things that way if I ever make the jump to at least a part time composer or something.

I listened to your latest waltz, by the way. Very good. I'm not an expert on that style of music, but I definitely see that you've honed your skill in writing this way.


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