# Better Nicknames



## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

I was just thinking about the famous works that are usually referred to by their nicknames, and about the nicknames that don't fit. The two that came to mind were Beethoven's "Moonlight" and "Tempest" sonatas, both nicknames given by publishers/biographers because of myths on what the music is "supposed to be about"

I'm not against nicknames; I think they make it easier to remember the piece, and they also can sum up the mood of the work, or what the listener should think about when listening. Yet there are pieces with nicknames, like the two mentioned, that aren't the best.

So, what are some pieces that you guys think have good nicknames? How about pieces you think have bad nicknames? And for the bad ones, what could be a better nickname? Or maybe, the piece shouldn't even have one at all!


----------



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Cosmos said:


> I was just thinking about the famous works that are usually referred to by their nicknames, and about the nicknames that don't fit. The two that came to mind were Beethoven's "Moonlight" and "Tempest" sonatas, both nicknames given by publishers/biographers because of myths on what the music is "supposed to be about"
> 
> I'm not against nicknames; I think they make it easier to remember the piece, and they also can sum up the mood of the work, or what the listener should think about when listening. Yet there are pieces with nicknames, like the two mentioned, that aren't the best.
> 
> So, what are some pieces that you guys think have good nicknames? How about pieces you think have bad nicknames? And for the bad ones, what could be a better nickname? Or maybe, the piece shouldn't even have one at all!


I don't think the Moonlight needs a nickname, despite what my (hastily chosen) username might suggest. It's perfectly self-sufficient music.
The Elgar Cello Concerto should be known as the "don't listen or you'll never be able to stop" concerto :lol:


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

What I read is that it is not about moonlight, and so properly ought to be called "Moonlight." Can't remember how the name got associated with it though.


----------



## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Florestan said:


> What I read is that it is not about moonlight, and so properly ought to be called "Moonlight." Can't remember how the name got associated with it though.


I don't remember the name of the man, but I believe it was one of Beethoven's biographers who wrote that the sonata was supposed to represent the moonlight over the waves of Lake Zurich. But there's nothing to really back this claim. My opinion is that this was the product of a Romantic audience putting their views into their interpretations of Classical pieces

OR, it could be a publishing gimmick to market absolute music to a Romanic audience, for whom programs were vogue


----------



## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

When someone says Schubert's Unfinished they usually mean the one in B minor, but Schubert left 6 unfinished symphonies, though that one is probably the best of them, (though the "Last" in D major has an absolutely awesome 2nd movement) and the nickname gives the work a "mysterious" aura the music does have.
Bruckner gave his 1st symphony the nickname "The Saucy maid". I mean, how cool is that? 
The quartets Rosamunde and Death and the Maiden were not given those names by the composer, but I like them. 
Then there are those nicknames so terrible that no one uses them. Ever heard of Chopin's "Raindrop" Prelude? Yes? And what about the "Thou Art So Like a Flower" Prelude? Or the "Suicide" Prelude? No?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preludes_(Chopin)#Descriptions


----------



## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Der Leiermann said:


> Then there are those nicknames so terrible that no one uses them. Ever heard of Chopin's "Raindrop" Prelude? Yes? And what about the "Thou Art So Like a Flower" Prelude? Or the "Suicide" Prelude? No?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preludes_(Chopin)#Descriptions


Monsieur Cortot needs to calm down :lol:


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Wiki: "The name "Moonlight Sonata" comes from remarks made by the German music critic and poet Ludwig Rellstab. In 1832, five years after Beethoven's death, Rellstab likened the effect of the first movement to that of moonlight shining upon Lake Lucerne. Within ten years, the name "Moonlight Sonata" ("Mondscheinsonate" in German) was being used in German and English publications."

Also: "The first seven songs of Franz Schubert's _Schwanengesang _have words by Rellstab."


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nicknames for music: Basically, I'm agin'em.

That said, I have a pal /colleague who knows just about _every bit of rep_, including the 'lesser and the truly obscure,' from ca. J.S.Bach through to the 20th century (at the least). He refers to any and all of it by opus number, plus title _if so assigned by the composer_.) As much as I am for that, when we are discussing rep I do not know all the opus no's for Beethoven, Köchel listings of Mozart, etc. I have to ask him for the number (of the sonata, symphony) and / or the key -- this from a supposedly 'literate' well-trained musician 

So while it is perfectly understandable that "Moonlight" (thunk up by a music publisher after Beethoven's death, and yea, with romantic sensibility notions then well floating about in general) is much easier for most to remember than _Piano Sonata No. 14 in C# minor Quasi una fantasia, Op. 27, No. 2_, or any part of that as designator -- Opus 27, No. 1 being the other _Sonata Quasi una fantasia_ (and another fine piece) -- I don't think that "_Beethoven piano sonata No. 14_" is too difficult for anyone, so rather advocate at least that.

The Chopin appellations, the sort of which Chopin is on record as vehemently having no truck with whatsoever, are the height of lesser late-romantic cheese / schmaltz (whatever sentiment and I find about the worst (near to egregious) of non-composer designated titles.

Less than the number of digits on one hand are the subtitles Beethoven gave to his 32 piano sonatas, yet we have "_Pathetique_" (suggested by Luigi's publisher, which Beethoven, in his inimitable manner and with a canny sense of marketing, said when it was suggested, basically, "O.K., why not?") and a number of other sonatas known as "Appassionata," "Moonlight," etc.

... and yes, for trained musicians as well as the lay audience, those nicknames are much easier to remember than the clinical Op. 27, no. 2 in C# minor 

Where it comes to Schubert, and those works where he quoted / used his own material taken from one of his songs, "Death and the Maiden," and "The Trout Quintet," even if not titles assigned by Schubert, I find not only harmless but the musical reference, recast, as quite acceptable. The song _Die Forelle_ is about a 'happy' trout in its natural habitat that eludes all those fishermen who want that fish as a prize catch. That famous piano quintet quoting the song has the same ebullient and playful feel, so there the title is imo wholly appropriate, and not at all misleading any more than it should be taken completely literally. Ditto for the "Death and the Maiden" quartet.

Whether the nicknames seem appropriate or near to egregious, I would hope that those who consume this music so titled are at least informed enough to know just how many of those nicknames are about as arbitrary and capricious as it gets, that they had been nowhere in -- let alone close to -- the composers' thoughts, and are most often given / assigned by others well after the fact of the music having been written.

_As designators they are handy, simple to remember, while having nothing at all to do with what was in the composer's mind while he was writing it, nor what the composer 'wanted the listener to think or feel.'_ Listeners who are unaware of "Who Titled What" are misled / misdirected as to 'what meaning or emotional import' they should be seeking when listening to any of the rep with these popular nicknames.

Once "who named what" is known, it pretty much does not matter, I suppose, what you call it... like that line in Richard Lester's film, _A hard day's night,_ when a journalist asks The Beatles band member George Harrison, "What do you call that haircut?" and Harrison answers, "Arthur."


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

If nothing else, nicknames just add one more danged name to the same piece.

What's your favorite Beethoven symphony? I like the Eroica, but my friend prefers #3. His E-flat major symphony is good as well, and then there's his opus 55.


----------



## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

One nickname cannot be improved: Bruckner symphony 1 "The Saucy Maid".

I wonder if pieces with nicknames don't sometimes get more attention than they deserve. I'm not sure what fuss is about the Kreutzer Sonata (which has nothing to do with anybody named Kreutzer).


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Monsieur Cortot needs to calm down :lol:


In my mode of thinking, deceased is about as calm as it gets.


----------



## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

To eliminate any trace of unwanted romanticism, I propose names in binary code. For example, "_Did you hear Beethoven's 011010011??_", "_Mozart's later 01100011 is way better than his well known 0110111110_". Imagine the program notes:

J.S.Bach:

001100011

001101001

011101010


----------



## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

There may be more than 512 pieces of classical music, unfortunately for your system.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

All good music should have a nickname. If it's not good enough to earn one, it should simply be eliminated. I mean, who in their right mind wants to listen to something named "Brahms String Quintet No. 2 in G major, Opus 111"? Sir George Grove called this a "repulsive nomenclature", and it is best reserved for repulsive music.

Scuse me while I spin up Haydn's "Razor" quartet'...


----------



## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

ahammel said:


> There may be more than 512 pieces of classical music, unfortunately for your system.


Yeah... but... who listens to those other pieces anyway?


----------



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

aleazk said:


> To eliminate any trace of unwanted romanticism, I propose names in binary code. For example, "_Did you hear Beethoven's 011010011??_", "_Mozart's later 01100011 is way better than his well known 0110111110_". Imagine the program notes:
> 
> J.S.Bach:
> 
> ...


I think opus numbers are already quite good for this...


----------



## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

MoonlightSonata said:


> I think opus numbers are already quite good for this...


So assign every composer a prime number and every work can by uniquely identified by multiplying the composer number by the opus number. Spell it in binary if you want. Sorted.

Edit: that won't work at all. I'm an idiot.


----------



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

ahammel said:


> So assign every composer a prime number and every work can by uniquely identified by multiplying the composer number by the opus number. Spell it in binary if you want. Sorted.
> 
> Edit: that won't work at all. I'm an idiot.


One could assign every composer a letter code though. Because names are far too long.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> If nothing else, nicknames just add one more danged name to the same piece.
> 
> What's your favorite Beethoven symphony? I like the Eroica, but my friend prefers #3. His E-flat major symphony is good as well, and then there's his opus 55.


I prefer the Third, myself. Also, that one that Beethoven originally dedicated to Napoleon but later changed his mind about is pretty good, too.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I would change the "Moonlight" Sonata to the "Somnambulant" Sonata.

I would change Schubert Symphony No. 9 ("Great") to Schubert Symphony No. 9 ("Interminable")

I would change the Mozart "Jupiter" Symphony to "Great Fugue".

In keeping with modern performance practice, I would change Beethoven's "Pastoral" Symphony to "Quick Walk in the Park".

I would change Ives "Concord" Sonata to Ives "Kaleidoscope" Sonata.

Since Haydn has musical surprises throughout his symphonies, I would simply remove the unnecessary name, "Surprise" from his Symphony No. 94.


----------



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I've long been an ardent opponent of Holsts "Planets", as if he owns them. Or something. They'd sound much better to me if they were called Holsts "Plants." It makes much more sense. Especially when you listen to _Hydrangea_. Beautiful music. Much, much better than _Mars_, or whatever the heck it's currently called...


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I like words, so I like nicknames. Numbers quickly slip out of my head and I can't engage with them anyway. I can't claim any validity for my point of view - just an 'ordinary person' in classical music listening terms - but I like names, so there!


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I thought this was about coming up with better nicknames for TC members...


----------



## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

Identifying pieces by opus number only -- is a pet peeve of mine.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I suppose if we talk about musical works by opus number we will appear very snobbish to others.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I would change "La Mer" to "La Lullaby".


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I would simply add to the Schubert "Unfinished" Symphony nickname as "Unfinished, Deo Gratias!!"


----------



## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

They should all be known as "The theme from..."

kidding, obviously - _with one exception_:

I quite seriously insist that "Elvira Madigan" is somehow a perfect evocative name for that piano cncerto, not because of any memory of the movie - and few remember there was a movie anyway


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dim7 said:


> I thought this was about coming up with better nicknames for TC members...


Which would lead to a path of enormous restraint to stay within the ToS -- I mean, think about it


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

SimonNZ said:


> They should all be known as "The theme from..."
> 
> kidding, obviously - _with one exception_:
> 
> I quite seriously insist that "Elvira Madigan" is somehow a perfect evocative name for that piano cncerto, not because of any memory of the movie - and few remember there was a movie anyway


Yeah, if you don't know anything of the film, the historic real story, the name to us English Speakers sounds both plump, a bit mystic sexy, and 'exotic.'

If you know the events in her life which have us knowing who she was? Bad Call


----------



## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

Giordano said:


> Identifying pieces by opus number only -- is a pet peeve of mine.


I particularly dislike this re: Mozart. I never have a clue if somebody mentions K222 or K477 or K606 ...


----------



## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Skilmarilion said:


> I particularly dislike this re: Mozart. I never have a clue if somebody mentions K222 or K477 or K606 ...


For Mozart in particular, I find the catalogue numbers easier to remember than the identifiers for some reason.

I can remember K503, but without that I'd be stuck saying "You know, the piano concerto in C major. No, not that one, the other one."


----------



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I would change "La Mer" to "La Lullaby".





hpowders said:


> I would simply add to the Schubert "Unfinished" Symphony nickname as "Unfinished, Deo Gratias!!"


Oh booooo_ . _

But at least you gave examples. Little actual answers have been provided in this thread thus far. Though, let us try to be positive.

Like, oh I don't know:

*Dvorak's * 9th Quartet: "For Brahms" - It would get more recognition with a nickname.



*Bartok's * Third Piano Concerto: "Remembrance"(?); "Birthday Gift"; "From America" though it does not sound anything like _American_

*Ives'* Second Quartet: "Four Men (who converse, discuss, argue, Politik, fight, shake hands, shut up, then walk up the mountain side to view the firmament"

*Prokofiev's* Fourth Symphony: "The Revised"; "The Reimagined"

*Prokofiev's* Fifth Symphony: "The War"

Certainly nothing I would use in day-to-day conversation, but thoughts. Realizing how ridiculous (and difficult) it is to name these pieces. Only because we know "Moonlight" or "Tragic" since the music's publication do those labels actually make sense.


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Mozart's 21st piano concerto is known as Elvira Madigan for no other reason than that the slow movement was used in a film by that name. It occurred to me that perhaps we should rename some other classical works according to films they were used in, or films they _should_ be used in.

E.g. Bartok's Music for strings, percussion and celesta, "The Shining." 
Or Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, "Lord of the Flies." 
Or Beethoven's Sonata opus 27 no. 2, "Immortal Beloved."

One could start a whole new stupid thread title thread this way. ;-)


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

^
^

I'd be slightly mortified if Saint-Saens' symphony no. 3 became known as the 'Babe' Symphony. On the other hand, if it was ever used in a porn film perhaps it could still be referred to as the 'Organ'...


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

If i was a composer I might consider giving my pieces nonsense names, or very generic human names. Like "Peter Symphony." Less dry and more memorable than say String Quartet no. 1123409218 in X-flat major but no need to give it any extra-musical meaning it doesn't have.


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Hate them or like them, they have served as useful marketing tools from the time of their application.
My pet hate has always been refering to Mozart PC 21 as the "Elvira Madigan" Concerto.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I don't know what a better nickname would be but I would be inclined to drop the nickname "Moonlight" from Beethoven's "Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp minor "Quasi una fantasia", Op. 27, No. 2." (Wikipedia quote). Hey there it is, right in the quote. A better nickname for it: Fantasy! Or Fantasia!


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Schubert Symphony No. 9 "OverFinished".

Beethoven "die vulgäre Fuge", opus 133.


----------



## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

hi 

Quiz 


A.	Find the nickname for Bagatelle No. 25 

B.	Also give the official names of the works with the following nicknames :

1.	“Resurrection”
2.	“Die Nullte“ 
3.	“Gasteiner” 
4.	“The Rhenish”


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

"Resurrection" would be Mendelssohn's 5th symphony, the work that got me into Mendelssohn.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I remember being utterly gobsmacked a few years ago when I read a sixties-era book and discovered what nickname Dvorak's "American" quartet used to have. And this wasn't the what you might call "genteel" five-letter version of the word either.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Florestan said:


> "Resurrection" would be Mendelssohn's 5th symphony, the work that got me into Mendelssohn.


No, that's "Reformation". The "Resurrection" is Mahler's Symphony No. 2.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> No, that's "Reformation". The "Resurrection" is Mahler's Symphony No. 2.


Ah!







My bad memory!


----------



## Fagotterdammerung (Jan 15, 2015)

Scriabin Sonatas - why just "white mass" and "black mass"? Other options:

Requiem Mass
Mass Murder
Critical Mass
Mass Appeal
En Masse
Mass Hysteria
Inertial Mass
Mass Effect 
Parody Mass
Masala


----------



## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Schubert Symphony No. 9 "OverFinished".
> 
> Beethoven "die vulgäre Fuge", opus 133.


Hi, hpowders. I just wanted to commend you on your new avatar. I intend to see fury via Netflix Bluray very shortly.


----------



## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> No, that's "Reformation". The "Resurrection" is Mahler's Symphony No. 2.


well done Mr. Mahlerian

you are a real Mahlerian


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

samurai said:


> Hi, hpowders. I just wanted to commend you on your new avatar. I intend to see fury via Netflix Bluray very shortly.


Thanks, but I already changed it to the young Mr. Pitt in "A River Runs Through It", one of my favorite movies ever.

Hope you are doing well, samurai.


----------



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

According to some traditionalists:

Schoenberg, _Atonal Noise for Piano_, Op.11
Pendercki, _Threnody for Actual Good Music_
Ligeti, _Requiem for the Good Old Days_
Schnittke, _Meaningless Drivel for viola and orchestra_
Webern, _At Least It's Short_


----------



## Fagotterdammerung (Jan 15, 2015)

MoonlightSonata said:


> According to some traditionalists:
> 
> Schoenberg, _Atonal Noise for Piano_, Op.11
> Pendercki, _Threnody for Actual Good Music_
> ...


Oh... I like this riff. :devil:

Messiaen _Expecto No Refund_
Berg _Wuzzat!?_
Boulez _Ritual En Memorium My Career_
Stockhausen _Litch_
Bartok _Duke Bluebeard's Caterwaul_
Ligeti _Lux, Don't Worry, This Will Just Be About Ten Minutes_


----------



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Fagotterdammerung said:


> Oh... I like this riff. :devil:
> 
> Messiaen _Expecto No Refund_
> Berg _Wuzzat!?_
> ...


Stockhausen, _Serious?!_
Ligeti, _Continual Useless Dissonance_
Messiaen, _Quartet for Hopefully the End of this Concert_
Boulez, _The Hammer Without enough weight to stop me from throwing it at the idiot who is responsible for this madness_
Bartok, _Three Absolute Butcherings of Perfectly Nice Folk Songs_


----------

