# Fur Elise > Moonlight Sonata



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

The melody is stronger than any movement of Moonlight Sonata, and more concise of a composition.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

_Für Elise_ is a gem of a bagatelle, probably the most successful and famous of them all. But it's still only a bagatelle, a short and light piece of music, that is far from having the structure, intensity and complexity of a full-scale piano sonata, and it's my opinion that any of the thirty two that Beethoven published is a more accomplished piece than it, including the groundbreaking _Moonlight _(or _Quasi una fantasia_, it's original title), and I believe that the composer would agree, considering that he didn't publish this (very beautiful) bagatelle.

So, to me at least, it's _Moonlight_ sonata > _Für Elise_.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

_Moonlight_ sonata > _Für Elise_. 

I'll tell you why. The "*Moonlight Sonata*" isn't just the 1st movement, a common misconception. While it's often played or listened to as a stand-alone piece, that was never its intent. The Moonlight Sonata is a three movement piano sonata, and has "a flow" between the movements, which, in total, relate an ambiguous story arc, and which work together and complement each other. That rather slow, languid, calm first movement is there to "set up" the following two movements.

*Für Elise* has a rather nice ABA form, but the stormy "B" section is no match for the stormy 3rd movement of the "Moonlight Sonata".


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

The Moonlight Sonata whether judged just by the slow movement or all 3 movements is a remarkable work and the slow 1st movement has become one of the most iconic piano pieces ever composed. The latter movement is easy to memorize and misleadingly easy to play for a rank amateur, but difficult to play well by even talented amateurs.

_Für Elise _is a ’cute’ piece and fun to play early in one’s piano playing experience, but IMO, a work that one eventually gets tired of playing. I doubt that it was intended to be anything more than a relatively simple work for a possible love-interest, student-level player. On the other hand, one will never get tired of playing the Moonlight Sonata, even if just the slow movement, given that it is a challenge to play well and can be played in many different ways, particularly as regards tempo.

The Moonlight slow movement was the first ‘substantial’ piano work I played as a kid having memorized it at age 11 without a piano lesson in my life, though I was blessed by genes from a talented grandmother. I’ve spent a lifetime attempting to perfect it. Maybe one day I will..


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Looks like I'm outnumbered.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I simply believe MS is unfocused and makes you daydream, and I find that unhealthy.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I simply believe MS is unfocused and makes you daydream, and I find that unhealthy.


Beethoven never composed an unfocused work in his lifetime, assuming I even know what that means..


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

DaveM said:


> Beethoven never composed an unfocused work in his lifetime, assuming I even know what that means..


The piece has structure, but the melody makes you space out and daydream, like Marijuana highs. And I don't think that's a a healthy mindset.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> The piece has structure, but the melody makes you space out and daydream, like Marijuana highs. And I don't think that's a a healthy mindset.


Maybe the work should be government controlled like marijuana.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

DaveM said:


> Maybe the work should be government controlled like marijuana.


To make a serious note, I think the piece and marijuana should be kept legal, and be a personal choice to use. Public use should be based upon property owners.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

The so called "Moonlight" sonata, Op. 27, might be a bit overrated, however to me Fur Else is overplayed. I don't really need to hear the latter ever again. To fully appreciate Op. 27, try listening to the melody line and not just the arpeggios. It's easier in a slightly speedier version than we are used to hearing. Andras Schiff's versions are wonderful for that reason, And no -- I don't think there is anything wrong with a dreamy state of mind. At times it is important, else no art would ever get made. (Schiff plays a snippet about 40 seconds into this lecture. And at some parts of the lecture he seems to agree with you. We may have been hearing the piece wrong for decades and decades.)


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> The melody is stronger than any movement of Moonlight Sonata, and more concise of a composition.


 I am not sure if you are sure, it's a very bold statement and I do not agree with you.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Op 27 no 1 > Op 27 no 2 > Fur Elise


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## KlassikerDronning (3 mo ago)

Weston said:


> The so called "Moonlight" sonata, Op. 27, might be a bit overrated, however to me Fur Else is overplayed. I don't really need to hear the latter ever again. To fully appreciate Op. 27, try listening to the melody line and not just the arpeggios. It's easier in a slightly speedier version than we are used to hearing. Andras Schiff's versions are wonderful for that reason, And no -- I don't think there is anything wrong with a dreamy state of mind. At times it is important, else no art would ever get made. (Schiff plays a snippet about 40 seconds into this lecture. And at some parts of the lecture he seems to agree with you. We may have been hearing the piece wrong for decades and decades.)


I agree I despise when the poser, untrue "fans" say they like Beethoven but can only name "fur Elise", rather than any of his 9 symphonies and sonatas as well as bagetelle in G minor.
They just say a random best well-known song of his to look "cool" while it infuriates actual fans like me to no end. My LIVING and culture is not a trend, people. So disrespectful!🤬👿


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## khoff999 (Oct 31, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I simply believe MS is unfocused and makes you daydream, and I find that unhealthy.


Then by all means never listen to Chopin's _Fantaisie-Impromptu. _You will probably have a psychotic breakdown and be in therapy for years.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Für Elise has become so overplayed and hackneyed that one is surprised to find out it is a pretty decent piece (although there are many better ones among the published bagatelles op. 33, 119 and especially 126).
And while I am not particularly fond of the "Moonlight" sonata it is a very remarkable piece, not mainly because of the uncommon form (the "improvisation" aspect seems more plausibly captured in the otherwise weaker op.27/1) but because of the combination of this form with highly charged emotional expression.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

I've always thought that "Für Elise" is a trivial piece if compared to the usual level of Beethoven. It sounds basically as a piano cover of a pop song.

The Moonlight Sonata, on the other hand, it's what you expect from a composer like Beethoven. So, IMO, this is much more exciting than "Für Elise", especially the third movement, which is brilliant.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

HansZimmer said:


> I've always thought that "Für Elise" is a trivial piece if compared to the usual level of Beethoven.


It is, or maybe "modest" would be a better expression. "Albumblatt" should maybe not taken too seriously but it literally means something you would give someone or write into a scrapbook with greetings, poems, reminiscences of friends or people you met.
But it's still much better than that salon piece someone posted a few days ago.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

I just started playing piano this summer. Funny enough I've been playing "Fur Elise" this week and after 3 days I can play through everything evenly, but not at a good performance tempo yet.

I would contrast that to the 3rd movement of the Moonlight Sonata which I wont be able to play even if I practice every day and live to be a million


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Für Elise has become so overplayed and hackneyed that one is surprised to find out it is a pretty decent piece . . .


It is precisely _because_ it is a pretty decent piece that is so overplayed.

Well, that and the fact that it's fairly _easy_ to play, so it's an entry-level Beethoven piece for beginning pianists.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

I was looking for this quote and it was in wiki.

"The movement was very popular in Beethoven's day, to the point of exasperating the composer himself, who remarked to Czerny, "Surely I've written better things"."

At this time LvB was proud of his F# Sonata, and rightfully so. (If I remember correctly) That sonata was difficult for the public.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> I just started playing piano this summer. Funny enough I've been playing "Fur Elise" this week and after 3 days I can play through everything evenly, but not at a good performance tempo yet.
> 
> I would contrast that to the 3rd movement of the Moonlight Sonata which I wont be able to play even if I practice every day and live to be a million


Students will say, "Four sharps, why?" But imagine transposing it up a half step to one flat (Dm) and trying to play it.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Luchesi said:


> I was looking for this quote and it was in wiki.
> 
> "The movement was very popular in Beethoven's day, to the point of exasperating the composer himself, who remarked to Czerny, "Surely I've written better things"."
> 
> At this time LvB was proud of his F# Sonata, and rightfully so. (If I remember correctly) That sonata was difficult for the public.


If I could go back in time I would like to have said to him, "You, Maestro, have written and will write better things but no one else has."


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Luchesi said:


> Students will say, "Four sharps, why?" But imagine transposing it up a half step to one flat (Dm) and trying to play it.



I was just talking to a friend whos a classical pianist and we were talking about that very thing, how the Moonlight Sonata is easier in C# minor than up or down a half step


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

I would not compare the two ,the Moonlight is a full sonata and remember the Presto ending close to as good if not better than the more famous first movement.

I also (I used to play Fur Elisa) don't feel it's a bagatelle,a bagatelle is difined as something shallow or trivial ,really an etude not of artistic value.Fur Elisa is certainly not trivial by any means!


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## khoff999 (Oct 31, 2018)

Other than the Moonlight sonata obviously being a much more sophisticated composition then Für Elise (which is a 'bagatelle', French for 'a trifle') the claim that it causes a daydream like atmosphere, and that is somehow unhealthy, makes me wonder if it is just the Moonlight Captain would object to. 

Beethoven marked the two Opus 27 sonatas 'Quasi una fantasia' ('like a fantasy'). Fantasy, in the romantic sense, is just that; imaginary, make-believe, dreaming, other-worldly, etc. And fantasy is a hallmark of the Romantic era, and many of the great piano works of the era by Schubert, Liszt, Chopin, Schumann, etc. invoke this atmosphere.

So without knowing how Captain would compare Fur Elise to many of the great piano fantasies of the Romantic era, I can't tell if this is just about the Moonlight Sonata or he has an aversion to a large part of the Romantic era piano repertoire.


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## That Guy Mick (May 31, 2020)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I simply believe MS is unfocused and makes you daydream, and I find that unhealthy.


Like Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star, but less popular, one can quickly outgrow Fur Elise. 

The notion that daydreaming is unhealthy is a common misconception promoted by Capitalists and talentless, mainstream Educators. The much less productive nighttime dreaming emanates from unresolved troubles and anxieties, fueling an industry of Big Pharma chemical remedies, and producing the misguided 19th century , warped psychoanalysis that would have us lie upon the therapists couch, where we recount the peculearities of a strained mind, barren of measured reasoning, riddled with sexual abandon, and wrestling with fictitious beasts. It is the night time where our innate insanities reign free.

No, we must instead embrace the dreamlike Fur Elise and covet the 14th Sonata, preferably using Dolby Atmos where possible, but sufficing with Monaureal reproduction when there is not other option.


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## That Guy Mick (May 31, 2020)

Nate Miller said:


> I was just talking to a friend whos a classical pianist and we were talking about that very thing, how the Moonlight Sonata is easier in C# minor than up or down a half step


This is very true when attempting to render the number using bagpipes, but not an issue with a well-tuned recorder.


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I simply believe MS is unfocused and makes you daydream, and I find that unhealthy.


this is just a very weird way to think about music or art or daydreaming...


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

mossyembankment said:


> this is just a very weird way to think about music or art or daydreaming...


I have strange thoughts from time to time, this was one of them. I love the first and third mvt of Moonlight.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Apples and oranges. I've always considered the middle section of Fur Elise special for its expression of dreaminess not really found in his other works. It's hard to describe; the youthfulness of his early years.
Depth is a subjective thing. The "elitists" will always disagree though.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Captainnumber36 said:


> The piece has structure, but the melody makes you space out and daydream, like Marijuana highs. And I don't think that's a a healthy mindset.


Listening to a relaxed melody is nothing like being high. Plus, Marijuana highs last for hours while "spaced out" part of the Moonlight sonata is over quickly.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I wish this were the last word on the subject of Für Elise


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

"Für Elise" is not an early piece; it was composed 1810, almost 10 years later than the sonata op.27/2 and that one is not that early either. Of course there is no clear line where "early Beethoven" ends but I'd probably put it right around/before the sonatas opp.23,24,26,27.


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