# I don't like Mozart's Da Ponte operas as much as his others.. can anyone tell me why?



## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

Over the past few weeks I've gotten to know and love La Clemenza di Tito, Idomeneo and The Abduction from the Seraglio, and I have always loved The Magic Flute.

But I've always had a problem appreciating the Da Ponte operas. Of course I've always loved the highlights such as the opening scene of Don Giovanni, the Commandatore scene, etc, but as a whole, watching the Da Ponte operas, I get bored.

I feel as if I'm working hard to get to like them, but that doesn't seem right. I watched Seraglio for the first time ever last night, having never heard most of the music before, and I laughed, and cried, and had one of the most enjoyable experiences I've ever had watching an opera on DVD.

Tonight I'm giving Figaro another try, and have just finished the second act (Met, 1985). I did find there to be much more incredible music in the second act than I recalled, and could appreciate it more than before, but it still wasn't the experience that Tito or Seraglio are for me. And I found there to be a definite lack of truly great music in the first act.

What's going on? Does anyone have any insight into what my problem might be? Or any conjecture as to how it might not be a problem? Is there something radically different about the style of the Da Ponte operas that would leave it up to a matter of taste as to whether one likes them or not, regardless of their overall love and adoration of Mozart?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

You like the dramatic stuff and the fast paced comic stuff. Opera seria and singspiel to be precise.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> You like the dramatic stuff and the fast paced comic stuff. Opera seria and singspiel to be precise.


But I love great music, I love Mozart's music. If the music is captivatingly beautiful, I don't really care what the plot is or whether there are recitatives in between the numbers or not.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

@macgeek and any one else ' Try this interesting staging of Nozze di Figaro with the addition of a non-singing cast member playing a Cherubim. It is from Salzburg; conducted by Harnoncourt with a stellar cast.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

macgeek2005 said:


> I feel as if I'm working hard to get to like them, but that doesn't seem right. I* watched Seraglio for the first time ever last night*, having never heard most of the music before, and I laughed, and cried, and had one of the most enjoyable experiences I've ever had watching an opera on DVD.


Which DVD did you end up getting?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

maybe because they're beautiful, charming,touching and witty.


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

While I do think the music in all three of the Da Ponte operas is awesome, I will admit that they are all over-long. I'm a big opera fan, but I still think most operas are too long. Luckily, with DVDs, we can now watch operas in more digestible chunks.  I also think these operas' dramatic qualities are interesting, and this might be an aspect you can focus on as you try to appreciate them. If you still don't like them, I wouldn't worry about it. Taste is subjective, and you wouldn't be the first to find them boring. As probably reflects the character of Da Ponte, these operas are about as far away from sappiness or romanticism as you can get. They are often sarcastic, witty, and salacious, which many at the time were surprised by because they didn't think that sort of subject matter suited Mozart's musical gifts. The librettos are something you can keep coming back to with interest.

I didn't really feel like I understood the appeal of 'Don Giovanni' until I realized how funny it is. The Don is an interesting character. He is, on the one hand, the complete buffoon, the figure of fun -- similar to Baron Ochs in 'Der Rosenkavalier' in that he acts in morally reprehensible ways, but is oddly lacking in all self-awareness, so the things he says are always entertaining. The notion of someone lacking all self-awareness, who honestly believes that he is a genius and God's gift to women, is funny to me. It's even funnier when the trick works, and the women keep buying into it. And then the end, with the image of the Don as a Satanic criminal, is quite absurd, because we've seen him basically acting like Homer Simpson with a fancy cape. And then there are the well-drawn characters of Donna Elvira and Donna Anna, who consciously vow revenge against the Don, yet who are personally unhappy and only find fulfillment in pursuing him and obsessing about him. The irony of that is interesting. The way that this opera modulates between farcical comedy and serious dramatic themes is unique.

An example of the subtlety of 'Don Giovanni's libretto is when, after killing the Commendatore in the opening scene, in the next scene, Leporello says, "Can I tell you something?" And the Don says, "Sure, just don't mention the Commendatore." That line implies that the Don actually has some semblance of a conscience and is not just an unregenerate criminal. The moral ambiguity of the opening murder is shown by how, even though Donna Anna is convinced that she must take revenge for her father's murder, one must recall that the Don did not want to fight her father, and was instead cornered into it against his will. This depiction of moral ambiguity is quite different from an opera like 'Tosca,' for example, where the characters are drawn in terms of stark good and evil. 'Tosca' has sublime music and is enjoyable enough as a romantic thriller, but 'Don Giovanni' operates on a higher level of art, where the viewer must question the things he hears and become involved in the themes explored in the work.

'Figaro' is also very funny, and not as unsettling as the other two. Here, the Count is the ***, the figure of fun. I think there's plenty of great music in the first act of 'Figaro'. For example, the opening duet between Susanna and Figaro, where Susanna sings about the headdress she made just for the wedding, is quite beautiful. Cherubino's song about how he's in love with every woman he meets is so Mozartean, and I like to think, probably hearkens back to the feelings of a young Mozart. 

'Cosi Fan Tutte' is very subtle and has many gorgeous parts. Two which I particularly love are 'A guarda sorella' and the song wishing the male lovers a safe journey on calm seas. Dramatically, this opera is interesting because I have come to think it is one of the most thorough depictions of seduction and that chemistry of being attracted to someone against one's will, which are feelings we are all subject to, no matter who we are. Do we submit, as Dorabella does, or do we struggle instead for the value of constancy, as Fiordiligi at least tries to do? Although some call this opera misogynistic (and there are certainly lines that validate such an interpretation), if you think about it, the women are also the ones who are given the fullest, most sympathetic dramatic treatment. Ultimately, this opera may be about how our conscious and subconscious feelings about romance sometimes come into conflict, and this conflict may even be productive if we allow it to be.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

mamascarlatti said:


> Which DVD did you end up getting?


I actually got the Solti one... I have a tendency to gravitate towards performers that I know before trying others. If I try another version it will definitely be the one you recommended.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

macgeek2005 said:


> I actually got the Solti one... I have a tendency to gravitate towards performers that I know before trying others. If I try another version it will definitely be the one you recommended.


Ha, I saw that live at ROH when I lived in London. It's a goodie too.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Glissando said:


> I didn't really feel like I understood the appeal of 'Don Giovanni' until I realized how funny it is. The Don is an interesting character. He is, on the one hand, the complete buffoon, the figure of fun -- similar to Baron Ochs in 'Der Rosenkavalier' in that he acts in morally reprehensible ways, but is oddly lacking in all self-awareness, so the things he says are always entertaining. The notion of someone lacking all self-awareness, who honestly believes that he is a genius and God's gift to women, is funny to me. It's even funnier when the trick works, and the women keep buying into it. And then the end, with the image of the Don as a Satanic criminal, is quite absurd, because we've seen him basically acting like Homer Simpson with a fancy cape. And then there are the well-drawn characters of Donna Elvira and Donna Anna, who consciously vow revenge against the Don, yet who are personally unhappy and only find fulfillment in pursuing him and obsessing about him. The irony of that is interesting. The way that this opera modulates between farcical comedy and serious dramatic themes is unique.
> 
> An example of the subtlety of 'Don Giovanni's libretto is when, after killing the Commendatore in the opening scene, in the next scene, Leporello says, "Can I tell you something?" And the Don says, "Sure, just don't mention the Commendatore." That line implies that the Don actually has some semblance of a conscience and is not just an unregenerate criminal. The moral ambiguity of the opening murder is shown by how, even though Donna Anna is convinced that she must take revenge for her father's murder, one must recall that the Don did not want to fight her father, and was instead cornered into it against his will. This depiction of moral ambiguity is quite different from an opera like 'Tosca,' for example, where the characters are drawn in terms of stark good and evil. 'Tosca' has sublime music and is enjoyable enough as a romantic thriller, but 'Don Giovanni' operates on a higher level of art, where the viewer must question the things he hears and become involved in the themes explored in the work.


Glissando has got it right here and I agree absolutely the it is the "drama giocoso" aspects of the work that make it so interesting, which is why productions showing the Don as devilish and cynical don't work. My favourite DVD (after watching 16 productions) is this one from Aix, with Peter Mattei's youthful exuberance and lyrical resonant baritone in the title role. The singing brings out the beauty of the score; but what is really noticeable is that the cast, who spent a year rehearsing and singing this production, completely show the rich humanity of their characters. Every word of recit counts, it sounds like speech, and the last scene made me cry, which is a first in this opera.


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Glissando has got it right here and I agree absolutely the it is the "drama giocoso" aspects of the work that make it so interesting, which is why productions showing the Don as devilish and cynical don't work. My favourite DVD (after watching 16 productions) is this one from Aix, with Peter Mattei's youthful exuberance and lyrical resonant baritone in the title role. The singing brings out the beauty of the score; but what is really noticeable is that the cast, who spent a year rehearsing and singing this production, completely show the rich humanity of their characters. Every word of recit counts, it sounds like speech, and the last scene made me cry, which is a first in this opera.


I will also add to that, this DVD with Karajan conducting and Samuel Ramey in the title role is excellent:


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I could never listen to the whole daponte operas unless at a live performance where you get it as it should be. But for private listening - I suggest you get a good CD verison of figaro - say the Giulini 60s. Now record all the music and skip the recitative - and listen in the car or while you are cooking or whatever - gradually - if you are sympathetic to mozart - you may fall in love with every note as I did. The same goes for giovanni and cosi. You just need repeat listenings and the magic will suck you in. 
Oddly Idomeneo is one Mozart opera I just never could get into - much to my shame.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Missing the recitativi in the da Ponte opera, IF they are well performed, deprives you of half the pleasure.


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## Roberto (Jul 17, 2010)

thanks to MamaS & Glissando for the recommendations

I've never met anyone who preferred La Clemenza over the da Ponte operas! Does seem perverse!

As well as listening and watching DVDs, you do need to see good live productions. 'The Marriage of F' is to me the greatest of all operas, and despite its broad comedy and moments of farce, is a sublime masterpiece, almost a miracle. I have never experienced so much sheer pleasure in the theatre. It is beautiful, enchanting, amusing and wonderfully clever.

So - keep trying: these operas are one of the pinnacles of European civilisation.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I agree if it is a live performance at a theatre or if you have 3 hours on a sunday afternoon with your CD player and libretto plus translation - but if you are pressed for time then a highlights tape/cd - self compiled - is the best option for me anyway plus I don't speak german/italian!


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

Good news! Thanks to the 1973 Glyndenbourne Opera DVD, I now love The Marriage of Figaro!

I will now begin searching for the Giovanni and Cosi productions that will "deliver" the music to me the way the Glyndenbourne DVD did with Figaro. They key things are: Traditional set, charming and expressive acting, people who look the parts perfectly, perfect singing (in tune, expressive, not too much vibrato), expressive orchestra.

I think the Ponnelle film of Cosi might do it for me, but I'm not sure which Giovanni production would be best...


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

All's well that ends well.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Before buying the Ponnelle film of Cosi, please consider this completely traditional and brilliantly delivered DVD from Glyndeboune. It is one if my (and many others') top 5 DVDs:


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

mamascarlatti said:


> Before buying the Ponnelle film of Cosi, please consider this completely traditional and brilliantly delivered DVD from Glyndeboune. It is one if my (and many others') top 5 DVDs:


Looks really good... but why the static blue behind the stage? And why did they omit numbers 7 and 24? Modifying the original creation in any way is a deal breaker for me unfortunately... 

Also, why is it 34 minutes longer than the Ponnelle film? Are there super slow tempi?


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

macgeek2005 said:


> Looks really good... but why the static blue behind the stage? And why did they omit numbers 7 and 24? Modifying the original creation in any way is a deal breaker for me unfortunately...


It's the blue sky of the Bay of Naples, I would think. And cutting a number or two in just any opera is still (rather unfortunately) common practice in a lot of houses. Arias like Basilio's fourth (or possibly third) act aria in Figaro, and much of the second act finale of Rossini's Barbiere are but a few examples I can think of right now.
But do get this. It's really, really good!

EDIT: And the tempi are in no way slow! Generally very brisk tempi, including a Come Scoglio so fast I had goosebumps throughout.






Methinks the Böhm is rather very heavily cut.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

Aksel said:


> It's the blue sky of the Bay of Naples, I would think. And cutting a number or two in just any opera is still (rather unfortunately) common practice in a lot of houses. Arias like Basilio's fourth (or possibly third) act aria in Figaro, and much of the second act finale of Rossini's Barbiere are but a few examples I can think of right now.
> But do get this. It's really, really good!
> 
> EDIT: And the tempi are in no way slow! Generally very brisk tempi, including a Come Scoglio so fast I had goosebumps throughout.
> ...


Interesting. How could it be 34 minutes longer than the Ponnelle then? haha.

Anyways, I read great things about the Muti DVDs as well.... gah.. I hate when an opera has so many DVDs of it.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

macgeek2005 said:


> Interesting. How could it be 34 minutes longer than the Ponnelle then? haha.
> 
> Anyways, I read great things about the Muti DVDs as well.... gah.. I hate when an opera has so many DVDs of it.


Sorry, for some reason I thought the Ponelle Cosí was conducted by Böhm. I of course meant to write Harnoncourt. And it does seem I was at least somewhat wrong. Both DVDs include documentaries of about half an hour's length each. From what I've read on the Internet (the most reputable source there is, you know), both DVDs are about 210 minutes long. Subtract half an hour or so, and we're left with about 180 minutes, or three hours. The Jacobs recording (which I cannot possibly imagine isn't complete down to the last semiquaver) clocks in at a little over 3 hours, it does have some really quick tempi, though. So I'd say both are cut, if only just a teeny tiny bit, at least compared to something like the Karajan or Böhm recording, 20 and 15 minutes shorter than the Jacobs, respectively.
My conclusion is that both DVDs are cut, although not much. I haven't heard the Harnoncourt one, but my guess is that they have been cut more or less equally.

And which Muti? The 1990-something from La Scala is as boring as watching paint dry, as is the DG in the same series. The 2009 (I think) Salzburg one is really great! It's quite regie, but not overly so. And there is the amazingness that is Topi Lehtipuu, Miah Persson, Isabel Leonards and Patricia Petibon! It does contain Bo Skovhus, though. You have been warned.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aksel said:


> And which Muti? The 1990-something from La Scala is as boring as watching paint dry, *as is the DG in the same series.* The 2009 (I think) Salzburg one is really great! It's quite regie, but not overly so. And there is the amazingness that is Topi Lehtipuu, Miah Persson, Isabel Leonards and Patricia Petibon! It does contain Bo Skovhus, though. You have been warned.


Worst DG I have ever seen (actually I could only manage part of it, which says how dull it was as DG is my favourite opera).


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

macgeek2005 said:


> Over the past few weeks I've gotten to know and love La Clemenza di Tito, Idomeneo and The Abduction from the Seraglio, and I have always loved The Magic Flute.
> 
> But I've always had a problem appreciating the Da Ponte operas. Of course I've always loved the highlights such as the opening scene of Don Giovanni, the Commandatore scene, etc, but as a whole, watching the Da Ponte operas, I get bored.
> 
> ...


Don't worry, just a question of (bad) taste. LOL These are awesome operas. I have three DVD versions of Figaro, two cosi fan tutte and just one Don Pasquale. 4 Figaros on CD. I just love these operas. They are so joyful...I also love the first story of the trilogy (Beaumarchais), The Barber of Seviglia (Rossini)...The third is quite a bitter drama..."La mère coupable" (the guilty mother) where the countess had a child with Cherubino and the count with another woman....it is quite sad and the opera was composed recently by the contemporary French composer of "le boeuf sur le toit", Darius Milhaud. I also read the play in French, it is so different...The two first are nice comedies, the third one...I wasn't expecting a drama! I understand nobody wanted to put this in music before! I like Idomeneo and Titto, but Figaro is one of the operas I prefer by Mozart...A qeustion of taste, indeed.

In Spanish, we say: en gustos y en colores los míos son los mejores. You can go to Google translator if you want...LOL

Martin, smiling.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

About Dorabella in Cosi - one of the most exquisitely sensual renditions of a female in history of art? I find the way Mozart makes her notes quiver with passion quite remarkable and she always sounds to me like she is riding on a wave of ecstasy when she sings - unlike anything else in opera that I have heard. Of course there is Musetta in Boheme - but there always seem to be a limit to her feelings and Carmen's love is animal desire.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Before buying the Ponnelle film of Cosi, please consider this completely traditional and brilliantly delivered DVD from Glyndeboune. It is one if my (and many others') top 5 DVDs:


Too late I bought this on Blu Ray, the comments were awesome on amazon.

Martin


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