# Blind Comparison - Mahler Symphony #4



## Becca

Given the success of Merl's Beethoven and Brahms blind comparisons, I thought that it might be interesting to try something a bit longer and more complicated. So for those of you who like Mahler and would like to do some deep listening, I offer 5 different, unidentified versions for your edification and enlightenment. All of them are in stereo and there are no obscure orchestras or conductors amongst them - beyond that I make no promises 

As with Merl's threads, if you recognize a performance, please do not spoil it for others, just PM me. I will identify all of them in the fullness of time.

A - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZHxQM7ZovxNnllp2J5jXevsHKdb7mJtvmey
B - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZaPQM7ZjxOKiDnxnHF5bzjeDvTMNkJIzoKV
C - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZlwQM7ZkvEKgDChsP06xB68c0vhkz9wMlB7
D - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZ8xQM7ZKju7EG2IBGyvtsLWJjRheSij9x5V
E - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZ1KQM7ZF1ndrdAATWyHLF5QkDgKaz2yhF9V


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## Merl

Ooh, I'm in!:wave: will try one out later


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## Brahmsian Colors

In my book, the prize easily goes to B, in both recorded sound and interpretation. I hear a seasoned conductor who knows what he wants from the orchestra, and seems to get it. Expressive nuances are natural sounding, with a richness the other performances cannot match. Instruments bloom, especially woodwinds and massed strings. The orchestra's quality of play is superb, and together with its conductor, it conveys a most convincing Mahlerian esthetic. The vocal soloist in the last movement gives a beautiful presentation. I believe the original recording of this sample is a product of the "Golden Era", and I'm nearly 100% certain I know who the conductor and orchestra are.

I find a good deal missing in the interpretation of recording A. There is little that is compelling or revelatory, in part because of a lack of emotional depth. No lurking darker moments, little personality in the death fiddler's playing (2nd movement), the spiritual element in the third movement virtually nonexistent, though the climax is decent. In the final movement at least, the soloist offers a good job with her child-like portrayal.

After listening to the first two movements of recording C, I balked at continuing to the end. The sound is clean and clear, however it misses some natural richness and color. Combined with a relatively faster pace compared to samples A and B, the recorded presentation borders on annoying, though what I heard of the interpretation was neither bad nor anything special.

In D, there are some nice interpretive nuances demonstrated by conductor and orchestra. In general, there is more "personality" that comes through than in samples A and C. Things are more convincingly musical, and seem closer to Mahler's characteristic style. To my ears, the sound of the orchestra resembles that of the Berlin Philharmonic. I'm not crazy about the sound of the soloist's voice in the closing movement.

Like sample C, the presentation of E makes continued listening difficult for me. Though the relatively distant perspective on the orchestra doesn't bother me per se, combined with the thinness of sound, musical enjoyment goes out the window. An irritating treble emphasis, instrumental peakiness and intermittent and excessive reverberation drive the final nail into the coffin. I can't seem to move beyond the first one and a half movements.


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## Becca

Feel free to PM me with your thoughts about the conductor/orchestra of B


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## SixFootScowl

Haydn67 said:


> *In D,* there are some nice interpretive nuances demonstrated by conductor and orchestra. In general, there is more "personality" that comes through than in samples A and C. Things are more convincingly musical, and seem closer to Mahler's characteristic style. To my ears, the sound of the orchestra resembles that of the Berlin Philharmonic. *I'm not crazy about the sound of the soloist's voice in the closing movement.*


Fascinating. we are opposite on the soloist here. I found the soloist in D to be my favorite of the bunch. I like the deeper voice of that soloist. Recording D is definitely great sounding, and I like that it is live. I can hardly wait to find out what recording D is. I prefer the soloist in D to any recordings I currently have of Mahler 4 and I have five. Unless it is prohibitively expensive, I plan to buy a copy of that recording.

None of the others inspire me to buy a copy.


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## hustlefan

I also liked D the best, followed by C, E, B, and A.

A - close observation of score indications but little feel for idiom, a little too inhibited, first movement has a good fast tempo but is emotionally too careful and lacks joy and exhilaration, second movement also has a good fast tempo and violin soloist is excellent with bite, expression marks are closely observed but again emotionally too careful and civilized, third movement is not too slow, presented simply and directly without emotional point-making but expressive range is somewhat restricted, soprano doesn't have good German diction or much warmth, she and the conductor seem in a hurry to get it over with, the finale lets this version down badly rank=5
B - lots of small tempo changes make it only seem idiomatic, first movement is too urban and sophisticated without warmth, second movement puts everything in quotes instead of stating the sarcastic emotions directly with bite, too light and flippant, third movement again shows little feeling certainly no sadness, everything seems to be observed from the outside, last part of third movement pushes the right buttons and is very slow and expressive, soprano has spirit and an attractive voice, fortunately doesn't get sentimental in the last verse, finale raises this version above A rank=3
C - not as well-recorded as the others, lacks the super-orchestra polish but that is a good thing in this case, first movement is fast and straightforward without pretensions, sounds genuinely rustic, second movement has again a rustic feel, played with nice musical inflections, third movement has an appropriate stillness and calm, middle section is expressive yet simple and direct, recording has limited dynamic range no real pianissimos, singer not a superstar, homespun timbre, finale is fast and direct rank=2
D - concert performance, opens in a happy mood, second theme played with warmth and expression, very responsive to mood changes marked in score, well-played and recorded, second movement observes the quirks in the score and sounds spooky and funny, third movement expresses sadness as well as calm, much greater expressive range than the others, lively soprano sounds sophisticated and not very girlish, finale is fast and unsentimental rank=1
E - highly-polished European orchestra with the best-possible recorded sound and lots of interesting detail, first movement is smooth, cultured, mainstream, faultless, but lacks rough edges, risk-taking, and variety of expression, second movement is very well-played but goes through the motions without commitment, third movement is serenade-like in its fast speed, middle section has some intensity, last section is expressive within the fast tempo, final movement is very fast so soprano has a lovely voice but can only try to keep up with the orchestra rank=3


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## Brahmsian Colors

Fritz Kobus said:


> Fascinating. we are opposite on the soloist here. I found the soloist in D to be my favorite of the bunch. I like the deeper voice of that soloist.


You're right Fritz....fascinating indeed! I never cease to be amazed at the broad array of varied responses given to particular recordings. Performance wise, I liked quite a bit what I did hear in D, despite my stronger preference for B. Of course, even our own likes and dislikes are potentially subject to change, while some never seem to change. A wonderful hobby (if one wants to call it that) in more ways than one!


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## Merl

Just a few observations. I'll add more later.

A - straightforward, decently recorded reading. Lovely playing but doesn't grab me. Lacks personality. 
B - I'm sure I've got this! If it's who I think it is its from a very good cycle (others don't agree though). Lovely bell theme. Sumptuous playing. Excellent account. Rank 2
C - opening movement too fast and awkward. Like the pared-down (?) and unfussy way with the other movements. Gets better as it goes on.
D - another cracker and my favourite recording. Is it just me or is this a vinyl rip (lots of pops and crackles and lots of bass.....May be my choice of playback). Sounds like one of the very first Mahler 4s that I heard (back in the 70s)!! 
Gorgeous playing throughout and the soloist fits the music well (I agree with Fritz). The more I play this the more it sounds familiar. Sure I had this on vinyl. If I haven't got this one I will be getting it. Rank 1.
E - not played yet.

No duds here but some stand out above the others.


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## Becca

Thanks to all who have posted.

Anyone who has posted their thoughts and who doesn't want to wait for me to announce the results is welcome to PM me for them.


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## Merl

Think ive got Recording C too. Well known soloist.  . Not a bad recording but not in the league of D and B for me. Thought it was familiar.E sounds like a European orchestra.


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## Becca

A few comments about the selections ... I didn't choose them with the intent that they be guessable, neither did I choose them to make sure they were not guessable! My criteria were varied and if there was any primary intent, it was to pick performances that are interesting for various reasons, and preferably were concert performances as opposed to studio recordings. I did decide to not include one particular recording as I thought that the soloist's voice was very distinctive and (in my opinion) rather inappropriate. As noted in my original post, there are no obscure orchestras or conductors, other than that, there might be one or two surprises amongst them!


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## Kiki

Mahler's 4th is a bit confusing for me. Underneath the peaceful and leisurely surface, there are a lot of unsettling undercurrents throughout the piece, especially in the slow movement where positive and negative energies keep alternating with each other. However, Mahler's indications for the movements read like a spec for elevator music deluxe with all those cozy words, but the reality of this symphony is a lot more complicated and more turbulent than what those words suggest.

So far I've only listened to D from start to finish. It certainly sounds lively. I especially like the haunting solo violin in the 2nd movement. I also like the soloist's rich expressions, although personally I would prefer a more innocent-sounding voice.


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## Becca

The undercurrents aren't very 'under', for example, according to Alma Mahler, Mahler's inspiration for the 2nd movement where the concertmaster plays a violin tuned a whole tone higher than the rest, was Bocklin's painting _Self-Portrait with Death playing the Fiddle_. Also consider part of the 4th movement song..

Saint John has let his little lamb go
to the butcher Herod. 
We lead a patient,
innocent, patient,
a dear little lamb to death!
Saint Luke slaughters oxen
without giving it thought or attention.


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## Dimace

I fulfilled my participation. PM sent! *Thanks a lot dear friend for the beautiful game! *


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## Merl

It was great to have Recording D confirmed and enjoy that superb performance again. I actually tracked it down on my HD and played it again last night and it really is a great performance and one I'd neglected for far too long. Some of the others are confusing me, especially Recording B, which I also like a lot. My rank for the performances is:

1st D
2nd B
3rd C
4th E
5th A

There's not one performance I don't like, tbh and I'm sending you a PM about Recording C, Becca, as I'm sure I know it now. Thanks for this survey. I've really enjoyed it and has confirmed to me that I don't play this symphony enough (I'm such a fanboy of the 1st that other Mahler symphonies often get neglected).


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## chesapeake bay

I made sure not to read any results before I listened and I definitely liked D the best. It's nice to see that it would appear to be the top pick so far, but reguardless it would be my choice to listen to and I will have to acquire a copy as well. Thanks Becca!


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## Becca

I am fascinated by D being a general favourite, I definitely view it as being an exceptional performance.

For those who want to guess at the provenance of some of the performances, you do have to think "outside of the box".


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## Merl

Becca said:


> I am fascinated by D being a general favourite, I definitely view it as being an exceptional performance.
> 
> For those who want to guess at the provenance of some of the performances, you do have to think "outside of the box".


Is it James Last? :lol:


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## Merl

Thanks for this one, Becca. Illuminating finding out which version was by which conductor / orchestra (via PM). I was convinced that Recording D was Levine and the CSO and Recording C was the Thomas Christian Ensemble (the TC Ensemble recording even has the exact same timing and sounds incredibly similar) but I was very pleasantly surprised by the actual perpetrators and would never have guessed them. I can't say much about Recoding E without giving it away but it's not a performance I would have expected from this conductor. I'm just glad I got Recording B right. And yes, Recording D was a big surprise too.


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## SixFootScowl

Merl said:


> Thanks for this one, Becca. Illuminating finding out which version was by which conductor / orchestra (via PM). I was convinced that Recording D was Levine and the CSO and Recording C was the Thomas Christian Ensemble (the TC Ensemble recording even has the exact same timing and sounds incredibly similar) but I was very pleasantly surprised by the actual perpetrators and would never have guessed them. *I can't say much about Recoding E without giving it away but it's not a performance I would have expected from this conductor.* I'm just glad I got Recording B right. And yes, Recording D was a big surprise too.


I'll be curious because E was my second favorite.


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## Kiki

On to E. It is like a fast flowing river of running silk (this conductor is not taking Mahler’s cozy markings for the movements seriously, isn’t this guy?) I also like the lack of any “interpretative nuance”, although I can imagine another person could complain the “Mahlerian accent” is missing. Mahler 4 is not one of my favourite Mahler symphonies, but this performance captivated my attention throughout. In fact I find it very interesting. The singing is also beautiful, but to a point that maybe the words don’t matter (this can’t be right though.) 

On the other hand, the recording is really horrible. Overly reverberant, especially apparent in the strings and horns; not the mention that ultra loud recording level of the singer. This resembles one of those audiophile recordings, made for audiophiles to pursue their equipment ecstasy rather than trying to to re-produce a performance for music lovers to appreciate the music.


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## Merl

Although not one of these řecordings, this Mahler 4 is essential listening.


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## Kiki

Merl said:


> Although not one of these řecordings, this Mahler 4 is essential listening.
> 
> View attachment 109604


I'm a big fan of Manfred Honeck's Mahler. This is the only one out of his four Mahler releases from Exton so far that I have not got. Now I feel tempted.


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## Merl

Kiki said:


> I'm a big fan of Manfred Honeck's Mahler. This is the only one out of his four Mahler releases from Exton so far that I have not got. Now I feel tempted.


Get it! Nuff said. It's as good as his 1st. The only one of those that is not super top-notch is the 5th and that's still bloody good.


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## Becca

Is there anyone who is currently listening to the 5 versions or is interested in doing so? If not then I will post the details of the performances.


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## Kiki

I've not been actively listening due to illness so never mind about me. Probably won't complete the listening anyway. I'm very interested to find out who E is though.


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## Malx

Becca said:


> Is there anyone who is currently listening to the 5 versions or is interested in doing so? If not then I will post the details of the performances.


I have been sampling a few but truth be told I won't have the time to listen through them all - but I am itching to find out your selections.


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## Becca

Malx said:


> I have been sampling a few but truth be told I won't have the time to listen through them all - but I am itching to find out your selections.


Do you have any comments on what you have listened to?


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## Tchaikov6

A and B are my favorites, personally. I think they capture the essence of what Mahler was going for better than the others.


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## Merl

Tchaikov6 said:


> A and B are my favorites, personally. I think they capture the essence of what Mahler was going for better than the others.


Just shows you how much we all have different opinions. I agree about B though. It's an excellent account and one that I own and really enjoy.


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## Becca

*Spoiler alert ... list of Mahler 4th performances*

Here are details of the 5 performances of the Mahler 4th
.
Thanks to everyone who participated and especially those who posted their thoughts.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
A - Peter Oundjian / Toronto Symphony / Barbara Hannigan

B - Michael Tilson Thomas / San Francisco Symphony / Laura Claycomb

C - David Oistrakh / Moscow Philharmonic / Galina Vishnevskaya

D - Simon Rattle / Berlin Philharmonic / Christine Shafer

E - Klaus Tennstedt / SWR Symphony / Eva Csabo

All except C are from concert performances.
All except D are available on CD ... the Rattle/BPO is available in the BPO's Digital Concert Hall archive (Feb 2011)

I included A because I thought of Barbara Hannigan (surprise!) and along with Christine Shafer, was one of the best soloists.
B was included because it seemed like a very good performance EXCEPT for that *!($& slow 3rd movement!
C was included because I accidentally came across it while looking for choices and, given the unusual performers, I couldn't resist including it 
D has long been a favourite of mine.
E was included because I wanted a Tennstedt live performance and that was the one that I could find.


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## Merl

Becca said:


> Here are details of the 5 performances of the Mahler 4th
> .
> Thanks to everyone who participated and especially those who posted their thoughts.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> A - Peter Oundjian / Toronto Symphony / Barbara Hannigan
> 
> B - Michael Tilson Thomas / San Francisco Symphony / Laura Claycomb
> 
> C - David Oistrakh / Moscow Philharmonic / Galina Vishnevskaya
> 
> D - Simon Rattle / Berlin Philharmonic / Christine Shafer
> 
> E - Klaus Tennstedt / SWR Symphony / Eva Csabo
> 
> All except C are from concert performances.
> All except D are available on CD ... the Rattle/BPO is available in the BPO's Digital Concert Hall archive (Feb 2011)
> 
> I included A because I thought of Barbara Hannigan (surprise!) and I think she did was excellent.
> B was included because it seemed like a very good performance EXCEPT for that *!($& slow 3rd movement!
> C was included because I accidentally came across it while looking for choices and, given the unusual performers, couldn't resist including it
> D has long been a favourite of mine.
> E was included because I wanted a Tennstedt live performance and that was the one that I could find.


Although I got B quite early the others totally flummoxed me. When you told me by PM that D was Rattle I was very surprised, not because I don't rate Rattle (he's made some great recordings) but because that performance was as 'un-Rattle' as it gets. It's much richer, languid and emotive than Rattle's other Mahler and I really liked it. I loved the recording too. Lots of bass and a really lovely, deep, rich string sound. Reminded me a lot of Levine's Mahler 4 (which I mistook it for). Great comparative study, Becca, I thoroughly enjoyed it. The hardest bit for me was that I wanted to sample individual movements and compare them but that was really difficult with the symphony being a complete mp3 rather than separated into movements. Not moaning. Just a preference.


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## Becca

Merl said:


> Although I got B quite early the others totally flummoxed me. When you told me by PM that D was Rattle I was very surprised, not because I don't rate Rattle (he's made some great recordings) but because that performance was as 'un-Rattle' as it gets. It's much richer, languid and emotive than Rattle's other Mahler and I really liked it. I loved the recording too. Lots of bass and a really lovely, deep, rich string sound. Reminded me a lot of Levine's Mahler 4 (which I mistook it for). Great comparative study, Becca, I thoroughly enjoyed it. The hardest bit for me was that I wanted to sample individual movements and compare them but that was really difficult with the symphony being a complete mp3 rather than separated into movements. Not moaning. Just a preference.


I'm glad that you enjoyed it. I understand your comment about the separate movements and will do it that way IF I do another of these


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## Becca

P.S. MTT's 3rd movement is 6 minutes slower than the Klemperer/Schwarzkopf recording!!!!


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## Merl

Becca said:


> P.S. MTT's 3rd movement is 6 minutes slower than the Klemperer/Schwarzkopf recording!!!!


It is but it works.


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## Becca

I have had an opportunity to hear the Honeck/PSO version and I feel very ambivalent about it, unsure if I want to hear it again. Yes it is quite the audiophile special but that's a big part of why - I found it aurally exhausting. The first movement in particular seems to be constantly trying to draw attention to all the various bits and pieces and so distracts from following the thread of the movement. I am reminded of an anecdote that Simon Rattle tells, when working on the symphony with Berthold Goldschmidt, Goldschmidt said "Simon, please remember what the notation 'ohne hast' (without haste) meant in a time before the automobile." Honeck would do well to consider that.

The second movement is far more successful and is one of the better performances that I have heard with the grotesqueries [sic!] neither under nor over-stated.

The third movement seems to be another case of pushing and pulling the tempi. It isn't as slow as Tilson Thomas, but the tempo extremes are there. It can be 'Ruhevoll' (peaceful) without being very slow, but then I know that many people appreciate that approach. (A sudden very disturbing thought ... what would Celibidache have done with this symphony!)

The last movement? Not bad, the soloist is better than some but not the best that I have heard. It does seem as though she is in her own private acoustic, quite distracting.

In summary, given that I have only listened the once and a subsequent listen could well modify some of my comments. I would be very interested in hearing Honeck do this in the concert hall but this particular recording seems to be more about an audio spectacular, which is not what I want in this symphony.


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## Kiki

I only had a chance of listening to Honeck's first mvt of the 4th so far. I thought he went wild, but found that quite interesting. (And wondering what his 7th would sound like).

Interestingly, I did an eyeball check on timings, and found that Walter and Klemperer were among the quickest in the slow movement, well below 20 mins. I never noticed that and certainly didn't expect that. (Talk about stereotyping!) BTW, I also came across a Stuttgart account of Celibidache's Boléro recently. He was "quick" at 16:12. I was shocked. Would have expected 18+ minutes. :lol:


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## Kiki

Becca said:


> A - Peter Oundjian / Toronto Symphony / Barbara Hannigan
> 
> B - Michael Tilson Thomas / San Francisco Symphony / Laura Claycomb
> 
> C - David Oistrakh / Moscow Philharmonic / Galina Vishnevskaya
> 
> D - Simon Rattle / Berlin Philharmonic / Christine Shafer
> 
> E - Klaus Tennstedt / SWR Symphony / Eva Csabo


I only listened to D & E. Both conductors are surprises for me. Didn't expect their Mahler could sound like that. (Talk about stereotyping again!)

I suppose I belong to the Rattle-haters camp (i.e. our pastime is keep buying his records and keep moaning about them). Did he perform all the Mahler symphonies in Berlin? I wish the Berliner Philharmoniker would release a complete Mahler set of his, but it sounds unlikely given that they just released his first and last No. 6 performed in Berlin.

Thanks for setting this up, Becca. It's been an enjoyable exercise!


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## Merl

Funnily enough, I've read 3 or 4 completely different reviews on that Honeck performance. Classical-CDs called it 'unsubtle' with a little too much podium inteference, Hurwitz at Classics Today gave it a straight 10 out of 10, calling it 'unbuttoned and gleeful'. Another SACD reviewer called it 'aural overkill' but Gramophone praised it to the skies (strongly recommended). I'm with Hurwitz, but as this comparative study has shown, we all hear something different that we like. And yes I love that 'unhinged' first movement.


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## Becca

Kiki said:


> I only listened to D & E. Both conductors are surprises for me. Didn't expect their Mahler could sound like that. (Talk about stereotyping again!)
> 
> I suppose I belong to the Rattle-haters camp (i.e. our pastime is keep buying his records and keep moaning about them). Did he perform all the Mahler symphonies in Berlin? _*I wish the Berliner Philharmoniker would release a complete Mahler set of his, but it sounds unlikely given that they just released his first and last No. 6 performed in Berlin*_.
> 
> Thanks for setting this up, Becca. It's been an enjoyable exercise!


They did a complete cycle of the symphonies in the same season as this 4th. With the exception of the 8th, I think he and the BPO have done all of them more than once. You should buy a one month 'ticket' to the Digital Concert Hall and check out what's available.


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## Merl

Becca said:


> They did a complete cycle of the symphonies in the same season as this 4th. With the exception of the 8th, I think he and the BPO have done all of them more than once. You should buy a one month 'ticket' to the Digital Concert Hall and check out what's available.


I'd love to hear the rest of Rattle's BPO Mahler based on that recording of the 4th. Are the rest as impressive, Becca? I'd particularly love to hear Rattle's latest Mahler 1st.


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## Becca

Given the variety in opinions you are better off drawing your own conclusions! I have to admit that while I like Rattle, his take on the 2nd, at least the 1st movement, is not one that I like. I seem to remember his 7th as being quite successful.


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## Merl

Becca said:


> Given the variety in opinions you are better off drawing your own conclusions! I have to admit that while I like Rattle, his take on the 2nd, at least the 1st movement, is not one that I like. I seem to remember his 7th as being quite successful.


Fair enough. I'm no Rattle-hater. Like others he's done good stuff and some pish. I'll have a listen soon.


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## Kiki

Thanks for info, Becca! Did a search on Digital Concert Hall. Found all Mahler symphonies conducted by Rattle that were taken from various seasons. The only one missing is the 10th, which is a bit of a surprise given that he's made two pretty good recordings of it over the years.

In fact I've got a few "free" 7-day access tickets that came with their disc releases, but never took the trouble to redeem them. Laziness is the main reason, but then paying a subscription fee in the long term for lossy audio never appealed to me either. But to continue with my Rattle-hater's behavioural pattern, I've bitten the bullet and ordered the discs of Rattle's first and last Mahler 6s in Berlin. Really looking forward to that!


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## Dimace

Becca said:


> Here are details of the 5 performances of the Mahler 4th
> .
> Thanks to everyone who participated and especially those who posted their thoughts.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> A - Peter Oundjian / Toronto Symphony / Barbara Hannigan
> 
> B - Michael Tilson Thomas / San Francisco Symphony / Laura Claycomb
> 
> C - David Oistrakh / Moscow Philharmonic / Galina Vishnevskaya
> 
> D - Simon Rattle / Berlin Philharmonic / Christine Shafer
> 
> E - Klaus Tennstedt / SWR Symphony / Eva Csabo
> 
> All except C are from concert performances.
> All except D are available on CD ... the Rattle/BPO is available in the BPO's Digital Concert Hall archive (Feb 2011)
> 
> I included A because I thought of Barbara Hannigan (surprise!) and along with Christine Shafer, was one of the best soloists.
> B was included because it seemed like a very good performance EXCEPT for that *!($& slow 3rd movement!
> C was included because I accidentally came across it while looking for choices and, given the unusual performers, I couldn't resist including it
> D has long been a favourite of mine.
> E was included because I wanted a Tennstedt live performance and that was the one that I could find.


Super unfair game, with target my musical extinction and humiliation! :lol: I listen (and I love) ONLY the Klaus! Our friend Becca knew this and put the other guys into the game, so I found nothing! :lol: (The Simon boy is the one who managed the symphony to last more than an hour? The new Abbado in musical delay...) :lol:


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## Becca

Dimace said:


> Super unfair game, with target my musical extinction and humiliation! :lol: I listen (and I love) ONLY the Klaus! Our friend Becca knew this and put the other guys into the game, so I found nothing! :lol: (The Simon boy is the one who managed the symphony to last more than an hour? The new Abbado in musical delay...) :lol:


The Rattle is only 57 minutes long but the Tilson Thomas is over 62 minutes!


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## Thomyum2

Interesting to find this thread just at this moment. Over the past two weeks, I've been listening to the L.A. Philharmonic's performance of this piece, conducted by Mirga Grazinyte-Tyla, which is still available here for the next week or two at symphonycast.com:

https://www.yourclassical.org/programs/symphonycast/episodes/2018/11/05

Has anyone here heard this yet? I've been totally blown away by this performance. It's uneven in spots but has a spontaneous and natural feel to it unlike any I've heard before. The 4th was never my favorite Mahler piece but hearing this performance has let me hear it in a whole new way. When they take this recording down off the web site, I know I'm going to miss it and need to find a new recording for my collection to replace it so I've been researching what might be a good one to have. Would love to hear what any of you think of this.


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## Merl

Thomyum2 said:


> Interesting to find this thread just at this moment. Over the past two weeks, I've been listening to the L.A. Philharmonic's performance of this piece, conducted by Mirga Grazinyte-Tyla, which is still available here for the next week or two at symphonycast.com:
> 
> https://www.yourclassical.org/programs/symphonycast/episodes/2018/11/05
> 
> Has anyone here heard this yet? I've been totally blown away by this performance. It's uneven in spots but has a spontaneous and natural feel to it unlike any I've heard before. The 4th was never my favorite Mahler piece but hearing this performance has let me hear it in a whole new way. When they take this recording down off the web site, I know I'm going to miss it and need to find a new recording for my collection to replace it so I've been researching what might be a good one to have. Would love to hear what any of you think of this.


Had a listen to this earlier. Its certainly quite a graceful performance and is mostly well played and sung, however i like a bit more clout in my Mahler and i think it loses some momentum in places which really affects it. Theres some good recommendations in this thread so have a read through and see if you get any inspiration from there. Also check out the 5 accounts Becca posted. I have since got one of these as its an excellent 4th (but i still prefer Honeck). Have a listen to a few different ones on youtube too. Thanks for the heads-up on this one, though.


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## Merl

Incidentally, Thomyum2, if you like that LAPO account you will definitely enjoy Janson's vision of Mahler's 4th. Its a live version with the RCO. Jansons isnt always succesful with Mahler but i greatly enjoy his 1st, 4th and 5th from this set. Give it a try and see what you think.


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## Becca

Thomyum2 said:


> Has anyone here heard this yet? I've been totally blown away by this performance. It's uneven in spots but has a spontaneous and natural feel to it unlike any I've heard before. The 4th was never my favorite Mahler piece but hearing this performance has let me hear it in a whole new way. When they take this recording down off the web site, I know I'm going to miss it and need to find a new recording for my collection to replace it so I've been researching what might be a good one to have. Would love to hear what any of you think of this.


I am listening to it at the moment. Let me start by saying that I think highly of MG-T and think she will become one of the really good conductors ... in 15 or so years, but this Mahler 4th, so far, is disappointing. The first movement is marked _Bedächtig, nicht eilen_ - moderate, do not rush, but her 1st movement has to be one of the fastest that I've heard so she misses quite a bit *. The problem is generally that so often M4 is talked about being Mahler's sunniest work, but that is only a superficial view. Admittedly it isn't anything like (e.g.) the 6th, but it is important to remember that in the second movement, the concertmaster plays a violin tuned higher than the rest of the orchestra and that was an inspiration from the Bocklin's painting _Self-Portrait with Death playing the Fiddle_ - not exactly sunny.

Into the 3rd movement now and she is really slowing down.

...more to follow


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## Becca

Becca said:


> ...more to follow


I have now had a chance to listen to all of it and to revisit some parts...
- As the second movement started, I felt that she had found a better tempo in keeping with the 'ohne hast' marking although at times I felt that she sped up too much. While more successful than the first movement, it didn't really convey the sinister shadows and contrasts. Not enough of the Brothers Grimm.
- I know that tempo isn't everything, the choices are significant and her third movement was as much slower than the average as her first was faster. It didn't quite get to the point of falling apart, but it was a close run thing at times! 
- The last movement was of a par with the rest and, to be honest, I didn't much care for the soloist, either her voice or the way she glossed over some of the subtleties particularly towards the end.

So overall, I would give it a B, the type of performance that you would enjoy in the concert hall and yet still feel that something was missing, things which I have every expectation she will figure out with experience and maturity. For now she seems to be suffering from a mild case of young conductors syndrome, i.e. a tendency to pull and push a bit too much, too fast and too slow.


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## SixFootScowl

Just stumbled across this on Amazon and it seems pretty obscure. 
None available on CD: www.amazon.com/dp/B00007JRU9/
Digital download and sound clips: www.amazon.com/dp/B078YSQC96/


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## SixFootScowl

So I finally started listening to my Abravanel Mahler cycle that I got on digital download for the ridiculous price of 99 cents (*Mahler Big Box*) and came to #4 and really like the singer, Netania Davrath. Here is a sound clip of the 4th movement with Netania. Here is the CD version:


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## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> Incidentally, Thomyum2, if you like that LAPO account you will definitely enjoy Janson's vision of Mahler's 4th. Its a live version with the RCO. Jansons isnt always succesful with Mahler but i greatly enjoy his 1st, 4th and 5th from this set. Give it a try and see what you think.
> 
> View attachment 109960


I was beginning to think that Jansons does almost always get Mahler right and can't think of a symphony that I know him in and don't place him among my favourites. Of course, his is not the only way with Mahler .... . It would be good to get your take on the ones to avoid him in.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Fritz Kobus said:


> So I finally started listening to my Abravanel Mahler cycle that I got on digital download for the ridiculous price of 99 cents and came to #4 and really like the singer, Netania Davrath.


Davrath had an appealing timbre, recording what is arguably the definitive version of Canteloube's _Songs of the Auvergne_, in which her fresh, childlike voice is used to great effect. These self-same qualities make her an ideal soprano for Mahler's 4th.


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> I was beginning to think that Jansons does almost always get Mahler right and can't think of a symphony that I know him in and don't place him among my favourites. Of course, his is not the only way with Mahler .... . It would be good to get your take on the ones to avoid him in.


I have those Jansons performances and tbh there's not a dud amongst them. The 2nd, 4th and 6th are all very good (but i prefer his excellent 6th with the LSO). I'm not bothered about his 8th as i dont like the symphony but critical consensus is that it's a superb account. I rate his 3rd highly, as its one of the only accounts that make sense of a far too long-winded symphony. The real joys , though, are a joyful 1st, a spirited and consistently satisfying 5th and a terrific 7th. I don't have the 9th from this set so i cant comment.


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## Enthusiast

Thanks, Merl. I concur with all that 100%. I've heard the 9th and found it pretty good, too.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Hey! I wanted to try this, but the links in the first post aren't available...Wonder if I have the brains and courage to make sense of my preferance


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## Harrowby Hall

Mirga did Mahler 4 in Birmingham a couple of years ago. Instead of a soprano soloist for the final movement she had three boy trebles. Truly, a child's view of Heaven.

She positioned the boys where they could see her and she mouthed their entire part whilst directing the CBSO.


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## Becca

Harrowby Hall said:


> Mirga did Mahler 4 in Birmingham a couple of years ago. Instead of a soprano soloist for the final movement she had three boy trebles. Truly, a child's view of Heaven.
> 
> She positioned the boys where they could see her and she mouthed their entire part whilst directing the CBSO.


Perhaps I am being too pedantic but my feeling is if that's what Mahler wanted, that's what he would have written.


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## sourmilkmoon

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Hey! I wanted to try this, but the links in the first post aren't available...Wonder if I have the brains and courage to make sense of my preferance


I also came late to the thread. I really wish I could have heard the selections


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## Merl

Maybe Becca will do another blind comparison.... BECCA! BECCA!


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## Kiki

I'll second that!!


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## Becca

Let me cogitate on that! The same symphony with different selections or something else?


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## Merl

Something else, Becca, please! I've got a Sibelius one I can do soon but it's not quite ready.


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