# Help me appreciate Mozart!



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

For someone like me, who doesn't enjoy Mozart, what recording (& DVD if possible) of what Opera will change my mind?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

​If this one won't change your mind, you are lost '


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Pugg said:


> ​If this one won't change your mind, you are lost '


Thanks Pugg! I'll give that one a shot


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'd say go straight to Ingmar Bergman's film of _The Magic Flute._ I saw it in the '70s with a friend who didn't care for the composer, and she came out saying "I think I'm starting to get Mozart." I don't think she ever became a real Mozart lover, but if the film doesn't enchant you you're an iceberg. (And keep an eye out for Gurnemanz.)


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

And if the operas fails, this might help.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I'd say go straight to Ingmar Bergman's film of _The Magic Flute._ I saw it in the '70s with a friend who didn't care for the composer, and she came out saying "I think I'm starting to get Mozart." I don't think she ever became a real Mozart lover, but if the film doesn't enchant you you're an iceberg. (And keep an eye out for Gurnemanz.)


That Bergman film is a knockout. I suspect there are purists who may take exception, of course!


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I'd say go straight to Ingmar Bergman's film of _The Magic Flute._ I saw it in the '70s with a friend who didn't care for the composer, and she came out saying "I think I'm starting to get Mozart." I don't think she ever became a real Mozart lover, but if the film doesn't enchant you you're an iceberg. (And keep an eye out for Gurnemanz.)


Thanks! Would you say Flute is your favorite opera from Mozart?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Thanks! Would you say Flute is your favorite opera from Mozart?


Musically, probably so, though I get impatient with some of the cute goings on, absent the staging. At home I just want the music, as on the great Klemperer recording.


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

I'd recommend this. Very nice production, attractive cast, well sung and acted.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I'd say go straight to Ingmar Bergman's film of _The Magic Flute._ I saw it in the '70s with a friend who didn't care for the composer, and she came out saying "I think I'm starting to get Mozart." I don't think she ever became a real Mozart lover, but if the film doesn't enchant you you're an iceberg. (And keep an eye out for Gurnemanz.)


When VCRs and videocassettes were new to the market, I asked myself is there any movie I like so much that I felt the need to own it? The first movie that came to mind was Bergman's "The Magic Flute."


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

If you like Star Trek.
The Star Trek version of The Abduction from the Seraglio:


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

My favorite is his first operatic masterpiece, Idomeneo, but I'd only recommend my preferred CD to completists like myself who want to hear everything Mozart wrote for the opera. I'd suggest watching a production, one stripped down to the bare dramatic essentials, on youtube(ideally before it gets deleted) before you commit to buying anything. It looks like there's one with subtitles here: 



. And for a great, but more traditional production of Seraglio , there's this: 



.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

I didn't expect the image to be so massive; think of it as a message from the gods! This is the Mozart opera you should start with, and the film.

Trailer:


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## kyf (Feb 1, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> For someone like me, who doesn't enjoy Mozart, what recording (& DVD if possible) of what Opera will change my mind?


 



Bonetan said:


> You know what, I'll ask my teacher & coach that question. They can provide a much better answer than I ever could..


:lol:


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## schzt (Mar 15, 2017)

Pugg said:


> And if the operas fails, this might help.


What is your opinion about Hogwood recordings?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

kyf said:


> :lol:


What exactly do you find funny about this? They specialize in the German rep & don't watch DVD's of Mozart operas (or any operas for that matter). This site will provide a much more comprehensive answer.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

I second the rec for the Bergman film of Zauberflöte. I saw it as a college student, and now my kids have seen it. 
However, I have had a thing for Bergman's movies.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

This is my favourite Mozart opera recording and possibly one of the greatest opera recordings ever IMHO.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

jflatter said:


> View attachment 93190
> 
> 
> This is my favourite Mozart opera recording and possibly one of the greatest opera recordings ever IMHO.


Will stands in another 100 years from now.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

schzt said:


> What is your opinion about Hogwood recordings?


None, my all time favourite is Karl Leister with Karajan conducting the B.P,


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

schzt said:


> What is your opinion about Hogwood recordings?


I have his recordings of early Mozart symphonies and they are terrific. I don't know about the later ones.

Just remember these are HIP performances-gut strings, lower pitch, etc;


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## Lt.Belle (Jan 19, 2014)

I love the Entführung meets Star Trek hihi. Well i recommend Bastien und Bastienne for you!
Its short and has lots of things that are typical Mozart i think. He wrote this when he was very, very very young.
The cd with Adele Stolte is the best i got that one here on my lap but on youtube i found this example for you please enjoy!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> For someone like me, who doesn't enjoy Mozart, what recording (& DVD if possible) of what Opera will change my mind?


In all honesty if you don't enjoy Mozart why bother. Just enjoy the stuff you like.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> In all honesty if you don't enjoy Mozart why bother. Just enjoy the stuff you like.


I wonder sometimes if I haven't given Mozart enough of a chance. Maybe I'll come around in time as so many seem to do with Wagner.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Have you seen Amadeus?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> I wonder sometimes if I haven't given Mozart enough of a chance. Maybe I'll come around in time as so many seem to do with Wagner.


I suppose at my advanced age I have little enough time to listen to stuff I like without adding stuff I'm not fussy about into my to listen to list.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

"Highlights" discs where recitatives are removed may help.

When I first started I didn't understand what was the fuss about Idomeneo and why Brahms called it "in general a miracle". I then randomly picked up a highlight of Idomeneo conducted by Colin Davis (with a starry cast). The "condensed" version helped me appreciate it and now this opera is among my favorite.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Have you seen Amadeus?


I have not. But I'm willing.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

I think this is highly personal road. For me, the opener was for some reason Piano concerto #27. I have no idea why. I think you just need to keep on trying different genres, because Mozart's catalogue is huge.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm very selective with Mozart. The first Mozart I loved was the string quintets. They're still the Mozart I like best, along with the "Prague" Symphony, some of the piano concertos, the Clarinet Quintet and Clarinet Concerto, the Sinfonia Concertante, and some of the concert arias. I think all these works represent him at his greatest, and I'd urge anyone curious about Mozart to hear them. Others will nominate the major operas - _Figaro, Don Giovanni, Cosi, Magic Flute, _maybe _Idomeneo_ - but those I respect more than love, so I'll leave others to rhapsodize over their virtues.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I have not. But I'm willing.


Do give it a try, its funny and some very nice music in it.


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## kyf (Feb 1, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> For someone like me, who doesn't enjoy Mozart, what recording (& DVD if possible) of what Opera will change my mind?





Bonetan said:


> What exactly do you find funny about this? They specialize in the German rep & don't watch DVD's of Mozart operas (or any operas for that matter). This site will provide a much more comprehensive answer.


 I'd say forget about it; avoid Mozart if you don't already enjoy Mozart's operas. Why bother when you can go for Beethoven instead. There is a thread here recommending more than 20+ different versions of Fidelio.

But if you must insist, then try to look for Mozart performed in a way that makes it not Mozart. Usually they sound more like Wagner. So if you like Wagner, but think that Wagner operas are too loud & long, then that would be great for you.

Also try drinking lots of champagne during the opera performance; that seems to work for some people. :cheers:


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I'm very selective with Mozart. The first Mozart I loved was the string quintets. They're still the Mozart I like best, along with the "Prague" Symphony, some of the piano concertos, the Clarinet Quintet and Clarinet Concerto, the Sinfonia Concertante, and some of the concert arias. I think all these works represent him at his greatest, and I'd urge anyone curious about Mozart to hear them. Others will nominate the major operas - _Figaro, Don Giovanni, Cosi, Magic Flute, _maybe _Idomeneo_ - but those I respect more than love, so I'll leave others to rhapsodize over their virtues.


I am the same way about Mozart. He wrote a ton of music and a lot of it to me sounds just OK so if one is to really get into Mozart, it would have to be by selecting some of his best works. I love his last 6 symphonies, plus symphonies 25, 29 and 31, piano concertos 16, 17, 20, 21, 23 and 24, the Clarinet works and Sinfonia Concertante you mention plus a half dozen of his string quartets and quintets and a few piano sonatas. And The Requiem.

The operas are not my cup of tea and I would suggest that one samples aforementioned works in addition to the operas as they too might find his non-operatic work more appealing.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I am the same way about Mozart. He wrote a ton of music and a lot of it to me sounds just OK so if one is to really get into Mozart, it would have to be by selecting some of his best works. I love his last 6 symphonies, plus symphonies 25, 29 and 31, piano concertos 16, 17, 20, 21, 23 and 24, the Clarinet works and Sinfonia Concertante you mention plus a half dozen of his string quartets and quintets and a few piano sonatas. And The Requiem.
> 
> The operas are not my cup of tea and I would suggest that one samples aforementioned works in addition to the operas as they too might find his non-operatic work more appealing.


Right, but given the fact that the OP is approaching this music from the perspective of an opera enthusiast and performer(never mind that they ask for operas in the original post), that composition of operas took precedence over everything else for Mozart, and that the last 7 contain some of his most sophisticated and significant achievements in music, I'd say they're the best place to start and maybe deserve more attention from the OP, at least for now. There's also the fact that there's a large variety in style within Mozart's mature operas (2 opera seria, 2 singspiels, 2 comic operas, and 1 comic opera with more serious elements) so even if he didn't enjoy one after first exposure there's still good reason to at least try the others.

On the other hand, since I can't resist sharing my favorite music, I will say this chamber piece almost always wins over people who haven't enjoyed most of the Mozart they've heard:


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

I would say the Klemperer Magic Flute recording. I don't like opera in general - but this one recording is a major exception. I love it. Lucia Popp's performance as the Queen of the Night is simply amazing. It is just an audio recording, though - no DVD.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mozart's operas are the greatest ever written imo a fusion of psychology in music no other composer has been able to match. I think it is the sheer subtlety and sophistication of utterance that eludes people. I'm not sure just how to convince someone they don't do it for. Maybe become more sophisticated a la Wolfgang?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Thanks for all the responses gang! As Trazom said I'm looking to get into Mozart's operas specifically (for now). I'm going to watch Amadeus tonight to ease into it & then dive into some of the DVD's you all have recommended. Thanks again


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## kyf (Feb 1, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Mozart's operas are the greatest ever written imo a fusion of psychology in music no other composer has been able to match. I think it is the sheer subtlety and sophistication of utterance that eludes people. I'm not sure just how to convince someone they don't do it for. Maybe become more sophisticated a la Wolfgang?


"Sophisticated" is a bad word to some. But how did Mozart become sophisticated? I guess he was more than just a child prodigy type...

Did Beethoven write Fidelio & the No.9 choral symphony before or after he spent years bossing his sister-in-law around for control of his nephew & then bossing his nephew around?  Oh, well, back to the champagne. :cheers:


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Mozart's operas are the greatest ever written imo a fusion of psychology in music no other composer has been able to match. I think it is the sheer subtlety and sophistication of utterance that eludes people. I'm not sure just how to convince someone they don't do it for. Maybe become more sophisticated a la Wolfgang?


What opera of Mozart's best demonstrates the subtlety & sophistication of utterance that has eluded me in your opinion?


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## Scott in PA (Aug 13, 2016)

I'm an outlier on the operas because my favorite is La Clemenza di Tito. It's a succession of gorgeous arias and ensembles. Here is Elina Garanca singing Sesto's aria Parto:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Thanks for all the responses gang! As Trazom said I'm looking to get into Mozart's operas specifically (for now). I'm going to watch Amadeus tonight to ease into it & then dive into some of the DVD's you all have recommended. Thanks again


Did you like the movie?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Did you like the movie?


Haven't watched it yet. I watched the trailer, but I'm waiting for my wife to download the full movie. She's better than me on computers lol. I still have time tonight


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Haven't watched it yet. I watched the trailer, but I'm waiting for my wife to download the full movie. She's better than me on computers lol. I still have time tonight


I always forgetting the time zone, I am just op, it's Sunday for me already.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> What opera of Mozart's best demonstrates the subtlety & sophistication of utterance that has eluded me in your opinion?


Probably Figaro but any of the da Ponte operas. The emotions and characterisations expressed in the music are utterly masterly. Just take a simple example of Cherubino's 'non so pui' - there is such an identification in the music with the heartbeat of a young teenage boy (and teenagers hand't been invented yet) in love. The works are full of them.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Probably Figaro but any of the da Ponte operas. The emotions and characterisations expressed in the music are utterly masterly. Just take a simple example of Cherubino's 'non so pui' - there is such an identification in the music with the heartbeat of a young teenage boy (and teenagers hand't been invented yet) in love. The works are full of them.


Thanks, I will listen for that!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> (and teenagers hand't been invented yet)


So in the eighteenth century people just skipped from 12 to 20 and missed being teenagers? Mmm.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> So in the eighteenth century people just skipped from 12 to 20 and missed being teenagers? Mmm.


Yes, that was their transvestite phase. They were known as mezzosexuals.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Probably Figaro but any of the da Ponte operas. The emotions and characterisations expressed in the music are utterly masterly. Just take a simple example of Cherubino's 'non so pui' - there is such an identification in the music with the heartbeat of a young teenage boy (and teenagers hand't been invented yet) in love. The works are full of them.


This....this....this.... DavidA you are so smart!


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Scott in PA said:


> I'm an outlier on the operas because my favorite is La Clemenza di Tito. It's a succession of gorgeous arias and ensembles. Here is Elina Garanca singing Sesto's aria Parto:


I love La Clemenza di Tito. So underrated. But I not only think Figaro is the greatest opera ever written, I think it is THE greatest artistic creation by mankind, in any forum.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

gellio said:


> I love La Clemenza di Tito. So underrated. But I not only think Figaro is the greatest opera ever written, I think it is THE greatest artistic creation by mankind, in any forum.


You and DavidA should get married.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

gellio said:


> I love La Clemenza di Tito. So underrated. But I not only think Figaro is the greatest opera ever written, I think it is THE greatest artistic creation by mankind, in any forum.


Well apart from anything written by Wagner, Mahler, Haydn and Beethoven you might be right.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Well apart from anything written by Wagner, Mahler, Haydn and Beethoven you might be right.


Don't forget Shakespeare. He's not too shabby.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

gellio said:


> I love La Clemenza di Tito. So underrated. But I not only think Figaro is the greatest opera ever written, I think it is THE greatest artistic creation by mankind, in any forum.


This I cannot grasp & is why I started the thread. I watched Amadeus last night & all I will say is that laugh will haunt me for days, possibly weeks.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> This I cannot grasp & is why I started the thread. I watched Amadeus last night & all I will say is that laugh will haunt me for days, possibly weeks.


May I add for years to come, even when reading your post I can hear that laugh.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Don't forget Shakespeare. He's not too shabby.


I was only thinking musically, but, of course, you're spot on. And don't get me started on non-classical!


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> You and DavidA should get married.


I would gladly marry DavidA or Pugg. Both of them have guided me so well - it would be nice to have them on permanent retainer.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

gellio said:


> I would gladly marry DavidA or Pugg. Both of them have guided me so well - it would be nice to have them on permanent retainer.


Very nice, alas I am married already


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

So is DavidA. It appears that I'm a failure as a matchmaker.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> So is DavidA. It appears that I'm a failure as a matchmaker.


Do not loose sleep over it, you will be okay.


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