# Beethoven's string quartets



## flamencosketches

So... are these the crowning achievement of chamber music? The crowning achievement of Beethoven himself?

Compared to the symphonies and sonatas, I am new to these. I only really know about 6 of them. But each one of those is absolutely impeccable. 

What do we think? Do you like them better than the symphonies, the piano sonatas? Did he save his best writing for the quartets? Are they overrated? What are your favorite ones? Least favorites? Best recordings? Worst?

So I haven't quite cracked the shell of the late quartets. I like the famous op.131, but not as much as some (Richard Wagner, for instance) seem to. But the middle quartets... yes. Fittingly, I like the middle symphonies (love Eroica and the Pastorale) more than the later (not big on the 9th), and the same goes for the sonatas (love the Waldstein, lukewarm to the Hammerklavier). The Razumovsky trio just might be my three favorite chamber works of all time, alongside Schubert's great quintet. 

Is my taste in Beethoven flawed? No, forget that - what do you think of the quartets?


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## wkasimer

They're certainly one of the pinnacles of chamber music, and my favorite Beethoven genre. Favorites are Op. 18/4, 18/6, all three Op. 59, and Op. 132. But I don't have a "least favorite" among them.

Favorite recordings? For complete sets, that's a pretty hard question, but to limit myself to a few, the Hungarian Quartet's monaural set, the Takacs, Alexander (the second cycle on Foghorn), Orford, and perhaps the Juilliard set from the 1960's. For Op. 18, the Turner Quartet is essential, as is the Hollywood Quartet for the late quartets. And there's a fantastic HIP disc by the Eroica Quartet of op. 74, 95, and 135.


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## Art Rock

Taken as a whole, the string quartets are the most consistently (very) good within Beethoven's oeuvre, more than the symphonies and the piano sonatas for me. The top of the chamber music? Not for me, that would be works like Schubert's string quintet and Death and the maiden quartet, Brahms' clarinet quintet, string quintets and sextets, and Dvorak's American string quartet. The top of the string quartet cycles then? Almost, but I prefer Shostakovich.


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## Merl

Are they as good as the symphonies? You're asking the wrong person! Well, not for me. Are they the pinnacle of chamber music? No again (but it's close for me). It took me a long time to appreciate them and I still love the middle quartets the most (I found the early ones the easiest to access) but now I do they're amongst my favourite pieces. Recordings-wise (as has been discussed exhaustively elsewhere on this site) there's lots of great sets (I happily own a lot of them). We've been lucky in this repertoire. There's so many great recordings we're almost spoiled for choice. Each one has its merits. Strangely enough I've just been listening to the Lindsay Quartet tackling the middle quartets and loved hearing it again (not played that one in at least 3 years).


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## chill782002

This can only ever be subjective. A lot of people rate Beethoven's string quartets very highly, and I like them myself, but I personally would take Ravel's string quartet or Sibelius' "Voces Intimae" string quartet over any of Beethoven's works in that particular genre.


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## flamencosketches

Ravel's sole quartet was probably the first piece in the genre that I ever enjoyed. There is a lot there that is immediately accessible and yet a lot of depth. Ravel as a composer in general is a favorite of mine. But I wouldn't rate his quartet over many (though some, yes) of Beethoven's.

I haven't heard the Sibelius, but I love his orchestral works.


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## juliante

flamencosketches said:


> So... are these the crowning achievement of chamber music? The crowning achievement of Beethoven himself?
> 
> Compared to the symphonies and sonatas, I am new to these. I only really know about 6 of them. But each one of those is absolutely impeccable.
> 
> What do we think? Do you like them better than the symphonies, the piano sonatas? Did he save his best writing for the quartets? Are they overrated? What are your favorite ones? Least favorites? Best recordings? Worst?
> 
> So I haven't quite cracked the shell of the late quartets. I like the famous op.131, but not as much as some (Richard Wagner, for instance) seem to. But the middle quartets... yes. Fittingly, I like the middle symphonies (love Eroica and the Pastorale) more than the later (not big on the 9th), and the same goes for the sonatas (love the Waldstein, lukewarm to the Hammerklavier). The Razumovsky trio just might be my three favorite chamber works of all time, alongside Schubert's great quintet.
> 
> Is my taste in Beethoven flawed? No, forget that - what do you think of the quartets?


I agree re the Razumovskys and the middle period - I love the late quartets but don't hold them in quite the esteem as many people do. I also love Harp, it's such an enjoyable listen. He is my certainly my favourite composer of chamber music.


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## flamencosketches

The Harp quartet is awesome. I just heard it for the first time the other day. A lot of rich counterpoint, as in many of his quartets.


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## EdwardBast

The Beethoven quartets are great as a body of work — a surprising opinion, I know.  My favorites are Op. 59 nos 1 and 3, Op. 95, and all the late ones. Overall I'm more partial to the sonatas. Among the late ones I'd say pay special attention to Op. 101 in A — currently my favorite work by Beethoven(?)


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## Guest

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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> *So... are these the crowning achievement of chamber music? The crowning achievement of Beethoven himself?*
> 
> Compared to the symphonies and sonatas, I am new to these. I only really know about 6 of them. But each one of those is absolutely impeccable.
> 
> What do we think? Do you like them better than the symphonies, the piano sonatas? Did he save his best writing for the quartets? Are they overrated? What are your favorite ones? Least favorites? Best recordings? Worst?
> 
> So I haven't quite cracked the shell of the late quartets. I like the famous op.131, but not as much as some (Richard Wagner, for instance) seem to. But the middle quartets... yes. *Fittingly, I like the middle symphonies (love Eroica and the Pastorale) more than the later (not big on the 9th), and the same goes for the sonatas (love the Waldstein, lukewarm to the Hammerklavier). The Razumovsky trio just might be my three favorite chamber works of all time*, alongside Schubert's great quintet.
> 
> Is my taste in Beethoven flawed? No, forget that - what do you think of the quartets?


I think the Beethoven string quartets are astonishing jewels set in a crown shared by Haydn and Mozart.
I see that you are in fact heavily into Beethoven's so-called "Heroic" period; I imagine that the Emperor Concerto also appeals to you?
In any case, your taste is impeccable.


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## CnC Bartok

Of course it's all highly subjective, but I'd rank Beethoven's Quartets as the finest in the genre ever, as I would do the same for his Symphonies. As to who has ever managed to get close in terms of quality/inspiration, undoubtedly the late Schubert Quartets, and of course Bartok. 

Oddly enough, my own personal appreciation of Beethoven's has worked sort of backwards! I first got to adore/worship the late quartets, it seems that now I am more in that sense of renewed discovery with the middle quartets, never really loved the Razs or the Harp, until relatively recently. No diminishing feelings for the late ones (admittedly a bit of indifference towards 127, mind...)


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## Guest

I love them. My favorites are the Op. 59 quartets "Razumovsky", Op. 132 in A Minor with the Heiliger Dankgesang, and I particularly like Op. 133 Grosse Fuge.

My favorite recordings have been the Takacs recordings on Decca - get the entire set, it is well worth it.


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## Itullian

I have 20 sets and rising. 
They are magnificent


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## CnC Bartok

Ditto twenty, but I think I'll be sticking for the moment.

Magnificent they indeed are!


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## flamencosketches

TalkingHead said:


> I think the Beethoven string quartets are astonishing jewels set in a crown shared by Haydn and Mozart.
> I see that you are in fact heavily into Beethoven's so-called "Heroic" period; I imagine that the Emperor Concerto also appeals to you?
> In any case, your taste is impeccable.


 Likewise. Haydn's quartets are a new discovery for me too. Op.20 and Op.76 in particular are full of great works. But yes, the Emperor is my favorite of his concertos - however, that's a body of work I still have much to explore.

May try and check out one of the late quartets later on, or the Grosse Fuge. But the middle quartets are still calling...

How do we feel about the first 6 quartets? I understand they're more firmly rooted in the tradition of Haydn. Are they worthy of the older composer's greatness?


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## flamencosketches

EdwardBast said:


> The Beethoven quartets are great as a body of work - a surprising opinion, I know.  My favorites are Op. 59 nos 1 and 3, Op. 95, and all the late ones. Overall I'm more partial to the sonatas. Among the late ones I'd say pay special attention to Op. 101 in A - currently my favorite work by Beethoven(?)


Oh, yes. The sonatas have long been my favorite section of Beethoven's works. I'm especially partial to Schnabel and Kempff.


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## Itullian

CnC Bartok said:


> Ditto twenty, but I think I'll be sticking for the moment.
> 
> Magnificent they indeed are!


You need the new Cuarteto Casals, fantastic set


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## Blancrocher

flamencosketches said:


> How do we feel about the first 6 quartets? I understand they're more firmly rooted in the tradition of Haydn. Are they worthy of the older composer's greatness?


Wonderful works--worth endless re-listening, in my view. LvB really excelled at writing string quartets!


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## KenOC

Listening to the 2nd Raz right now. This is the dark one of the three, the one nobody likes very much. It's gnomic, difficult, and far too uncompromising for most. It's also an absolute original, suffused with genius -- nothing like it before and only the Serioso after (which carries its odd tendencies even further).

It's hard for me to understand how anybody could have written this.

Speaking of the first movement, just to be clear!

Added: It's amusing to hear the tune treated so massively in the coronation scene from Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov turned into a perky little off-kilter dance in Beethoven's scherzo.


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## flamencosketches

I love the Serioso, but indeed Raz. no.2 is a bit much for me. I do enjoy it very much but it's my least favorite of the three, very dreary.

Anyway, Ken - I finally bought that $1 quartet set from the Colorado SQ. Listening to the first quartet on it right now.









First I'm hearing of any of the early quartets. Great sound on here. An absolute steal for $1.


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## EdwardBast

KenOC said:


> Added: It's amusing to hear the tune treated so massively in the coronation scene from Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov turned into a perky little off-kilter dance in Beethoven's scherzo.


Isn't the Beethoven on kilter and the Mussorgsky off? - Beethoven irons out the beautiful metric irregularity. Almost as bad as what R-K tried to do with the opening theme of Boris.


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## bharbeke

The ones that I think are brilliant so far: 3, 9, 10

Of the late ones, I am finding 16 the easiest to relate to.


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## EdwardBast

bharbeke said:


> The ones that I think are brilliant so far: 3, 9, 10
> 
> Of the late ones, *I am finding 16 the easiest to relate to.*


*
*

Like most of Beethoven's comic works, Op. 135 is congenial and more traditional formally. Other examples include Op. 59#3 and, among the sonatas, Op. 31#3.


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## flamencosketches

I listened to the Große Fuge yesterday and loved it. Quartetto Italiano performance. Once my obsession with all of the middle quartets wanes a bit I'm going to try diving into the late quartets. Saving the early quartets for later discovery.


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## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> I listened to the Große Fuge yesterday and loved it. Quartetto Italiano performance. Once my obsession with all of the middle quartets wanes a bit I'm going to try diving into the late quartets. Saving the early quartets for later discovery.


Similarly I love the Middle Quartets the most. I started on the Early ones but worked through them all. Don't get me wrong, the others are superb but there's just something sensational about the middles. And yes, the Quartetto Italiano perforamances are superb but the Takacs are brilliant too.


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## flamencosketches

Been LOVING the 16th quartet lately. Op.135 in F major. It's an all around incredible work, but the last movement is something else. Life affirming stuff.


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## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> I love the Serioso, but indeed Raz. no.2 is a bit much for me. I do enjoy it very much but it's my least favorite of the three, very dreary.
> 
> Anyway, Ken - I finally bought that $1 quartet set from the Colorado SQ. Listening to the first quartet on it right now.
> 
> View attachment 116010
> 
> 
> First I'm hearing of any of the early quartets. Great sound on here. An absolute steal for $1.


There's certainly nothing wrong with this set. I grabbed it myself. For $1 its an absolute steal and the early SQs come off very nicely but when you listen to the Italianos, the Takacs, the Casals, the Veghs, etc in the middle and late quartets the phrasing, the recording or the fire are more present and immediate.


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## PeterF

It is difficult for me to rank Beethoven’s string quartets compared to his symphonies and piano sonatas. I would also have to also 
Include many of the violin sonatas and piano trios among my favorite works of Beethoven. And we should not forget the concertos as well. So to select one of these forms by Beethoven as best or my favorite is really impossible.

The string quartets of Haydn are my number one favorites. So that makes it easy to say that Beethoven’s Six Op.18 quartets are perhaps the ones of his I like best. The middle quartets are also works I enjoy. Beethoven’s late quartets, which many consider his greatest are not among my favorites.

I have many versions of LvB’s string quartets. The Complete set by The Suske Quartet is top drawer. I also like the Smetana Quartet’s versions of a number of Beethoven’s quartets. Though I am not a serious fan of the HIP approach, the quartets I have by Mosiques Quartet are very good.


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## Merl

PeterF said:


> I have many versions of LvB's string quartets. The Complete set by The Suske Quartet is top drawer. I


That's one set that's nearly complete in my collection but that will be rectified soon. I need to listen to that cycle more though. I've spent so much time on other cycles that I've neglected it. I do recall the Rasumovsky being very impressive.


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## MarkW

Two comments:

1) My very first string quartet concert (I attended with trepidation) was all-Beethoven by the Guarneris. It was Opus 18 no.5, Opus 127, and Opus 59 no.3. I never looked back! 

2) I had a music professor many years ago, who referred to the complete set as "the greatest achievement of Western Man."


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## infracave

MarkW said:


> Two comments:
> 
> 1) My very first string quartet concert (I attended with trepidation) was all-Beethoven by the Guarneris. It was Opus 18 no.5, Opus 127, and Opus 59 no.3. I never looked back!
> 
> 2) I had a music professor many years ago, who referred to the complete set as "the greatest achievement of Western Man."


Reminded me about a quote from book I was reading (Carroll Quigley - The evolution of civilizations):

_It is clear that every culture consists of concrete objects like clothes and weapons, of less tangible objects like emotions and feelings, and of quite abstract things like ideas. These form the dimension of abstraction. For example, in Western civilization we have such items as the following: (a) automobiles, (b) romantic love, (c) nationalism, *(d) Beethoven's string quartets*, and (c) the integral calculus. 
All of these are clearly products of Western civilization and could not have been produced by any other culture. _

Also:
_This is typical of the Western ideology's belief that wisdom (or any real achievement) comes as a consequence of personal effort in time. The same idea is to be found in Dante's Divine Comedy, in Shakespeare's tragedies (taken as a whole), and in Beethoven's symphonies._


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## MarkW

infracave said:


> (c) nationalism,
> All of these are clearly products of Western civilization and could not have been produced by any other culture. [/I]
> [/I]


I do disagree that the West has a patent on nationalism. cf China, Japan, Korea to name three.


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## flamencosketches

I love these string quartets, and as a cycle they are a great work of art. But I'm not sure why they're always written about in such hallowed tones as if they were some grandiose achievement, compared to, say, Bach's cantatas or Mozart's piano concerti, which you never see described so reverentially by cultural historians and such.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I love these string quartets, and as a cycle they are a great work of art. But I'm not sure why they're always written about in such hallowed tones as if they were some grandiose achievement, compared to, say, Bach's cantatas or Mozart's piano concerti, which you never see described so reverentially by cultural historians and such.


I think there's a bit of a tendency to overhype Beethoven generally, not just in the quartets. But maybe less so by real historians of culture than by the general public.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

flamencosketches said:


> I love these string quartets, and as a cycle they are a great work of art. But I'm not sure why they're always written about in such hallowed tones as if they were some grandiose achievement, compared to, say, Bach's cantatas or Mozart's piano concerti, which you never see described so reverentially by cultural historians and such.


Possibly because the Beethoven quartets frequently pushed the boundaries of the genre? Magnificent as the Bach Cantatas and Mozart Concertos are, perhaps they "merely" represented the peaks of their genres at the time of their composition, rather than breaking much by way of new ground?


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## Agamenon

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Possibly because the Beethoven quartets frequently pushed the boundaries of the genre? Magnificent as the Bach Cantatas and Mozart Concertos are, perhaps they "merely" represented the peaks of their genres at the time of their composition, rather than breaking much by way of new ground?


This last statement is truth. Beethoven string quartets are beyond our world.


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## vtpoet

Just as a quirky aside, my favoratist recording of the op. 18,4 and op. 59,3 (the most vivacious and engaging in my opinion) is by the Schuppanzigh Quartet played on the two violins, viola and cello owned by Beethoven! --- (of the original Schuppanzigh Quartet). They were apparently given to him by Prince Lichnowsky. The cello is apparently in such fragile condition that it was only used for the one recording. 

As far as I know, the only place to buy the CD/recording is at the Musikinstrumenten-Museum Berlin. Well worth it if you ever visit the museum.


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## flamencosketches

Thanks for that, vtpoet. I will most definitely check that out if I ever make it to Berlin. (hopefully as soon as possible!)


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## Mandryka

vtpoet said:


> Just as a quirky aside, my favoratist recording of the op. 18,4 and op. 59,3 (the most vivacious and engaging in my opinion) is by the Schuppanzigh Quartet played on the two violins, viola and cello owned by Beethoven! --- (of the original Schuppanzigh Quartet). They were apparently given to him by Prince Lichnowsky. The cello is apparently in such fragile condition that it was only used for the one recording.
> 
> As far as I know, the only place to buy the CD/recording is at the Musikinstrumenten-Museum Berlin. Well worth it if you ever visit the museum.


Easily obtainable in the UK through amazon, I just ordered it. It's strange that there are so many more recordings of the earlier quartets on original instruments, but so few of the later quartets.


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## NLAdriaan

In his late string quartets and piano sonatas Beethoven reached a level of timeless purity. I notice that I do not feel the need of collecting a great many versions of these works, as the holy grail is already in the notes. For the (late) string quartets, I hold on to the Alban Berg Quartet (EMI), which happens to be the recording I grew up with. Maybe, with music of such authority and clarity, it is virtually impossible to play it bad?


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## vtpoet

Mandryka said:


> Easily obtainable in the UK through amazon, I just ordered it. It's strange that there are so many more recordings of the earlier quartets on original instruments, but so few of the later quartets.


Interesting, I had earlier made a quick search on amazon.com (US) but didn't find it. Glad it's available in the UK. *Edit: * Just found it amazon.co.uk. Packaging is different, but several used copies available. Found in on Amazon.com too with the right search term, but no image and only available for $72!


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## Mandryka

Try ASIN B000042OPW


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## Waehnen

Lately I have been growing to love and appreciate the middle period of Beethoven more and more. 

For example, I thought that there could not anywhere be quartet writing as thrilling as in the Death and the Maiden by Schubert -- the kind of writing that makes me forget the "quartet genre" but makes the music shine. 

But right at this moment I am extremely thrilled by the first Razumovsky quartet by Beethoven, no. 7 in F-major. Even just the cello solo in the beginning. The key of the piece is not very clear in the beginning -- and the atmosphere brought by the melody atop the tremolos! What a lovely long line, like a butterfly flying above some sunny field. Long gone are the strict periodic forms of classicism.

It is sometimes hard for me even to believe just how much absolutely stunning music Beethoven has composed. You know, even the piano sonatas alone would have been enough! But there are the symphonies, the piano trios -- and the quartets! And a few other pieces.


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## ORigel

Early Quartets: I don't listen to them.

Middle String Quartets: my favorite parts are the #8 first movement, the #8 trio, and the #9 slow movement.

Late String Quartets: first I listened to Op 127/1 on Youtube and liked it. Then I got a CD set of the late quartets-- I had heard they were Beethoven's greatest works-- and listened to #13. I wasn't really paying attention until I heard the opening fugue of the Grosse Fuge. I became obsessed with the Grosse Fuge, and struggled to "get" the rest of the late quartets because I decided they must be the most sublime music ever composed, if the Grosse Fuge is so emotionally satisfying. 

It took me a while-- several weeks of listening-- to love the late quartets. Every time I listened to them, they sounded a little more sublime.


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## Kreisler jr

I don't know which was the first string quartet I heard. Probably one of the "named" by Mozart. But Beethoven's op.135 and 127 were also among the first of the genre I encountered (on prerecorded cassette). I liked most of op.135 immediately and at 16-17 I was used to have longer stretches of music I could not "grasp" well, so it didn't matter. A bit later I taped from the radio op.132 and especially op.131 in the string orchestra version with Bernstein. This one basically grabbed be completely. Some time later I got a complete recording of the quartets (Melos/DG) for my 18th birthday, more than 30 years ago.

There are some pieces I don't like that much; the most famous one op.59/3 never was a favorite, the weakest is IMO the c minor op.18/4 and for a long time I didn't care about op.74 either (it's still not a favorite, but I now love the first movement whereas I used to find the pizzicato "harp" and the violin cadenza silly). But all the late ones as well as op.95, 59,1+2, even op.18/1 are among my favorite pieces ever.


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## ando

*String Quartet In B Flat, Op. 18, No. 6* (1977, CBC)
*The Orford String Quartet*
*Terence Helmer* viola
*Andrew Dawes* violin
*Kenneth Perkins* violin
*Marcel St-Cyr* cello


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## Terrapin

I can't think of a greater set than the Beethoven quartets in any genre. It took me a long time to appreciate the late quartets but I now consider them the pinnacle of classical music. While I love them all, Op 132 is probably my favorite. For me, the only chamber piece that matches the late quartets is the Schubert quintet.


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## Captainnumber36

I was listening to No. 1 and it brought me to tears, heavy tears at that. It was a rainy day, and I suppose it all went together to cause that effect.

I have the Alban SQ, they are lovely.


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## hoodjem

I go through phases or stages, in which I explore and listen mostly to Beethoven's string quartets for a period of time, or his piano sonatas or his symphonies or his cello sonatas or his violin sonatas or his piano trios. Then I move on to one of the other categories.

Right now, I am transitioning from the piano sonatas to the symphonies. Last year I was enthralled with the cello sonatas.


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