# Should classical composers ALSO write pop music?



## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

Imagine world chess championship for kids up to 7 years of age. There are some very talented children who dominate the competition. Adult grandmasters are not allowed to enter this competition. However, if they entered they would easily defeat every last one of those talented kids.

I think that today's popular music scene is akin to this children's chess championship. Popular musicians, no matter how talented, are musically speaking children, since they lack some essential music education and expertise. The most talented and creative classical composers, are, on the other hand like adult chess grandmasters. They have it all, talent, creativity, experience, education, expertise. The only difference from chess is that they are allowed to enter pop music scene, they just don't want to. I think if they entered pop music scene and played by its rules, if they just wanted, they would be able to create the most successful and popular pop music and they would outperform all today's pop musicians, just like grandmasters would outperform kids in chess. Classical composers try to achieve different things. They try to create something new in music, or they try to make music of long lasting value.

However, if they solely aimed at creating as catchy as possible and as commercially appealing as possible music, given their skill, I think they would be much more successful in this endeavor than today's pop musicians.

But they don't want to do this because it would imply that they have sold out, and that they have betrayed their artistic ideals, and pursue just fame and money.

However, I think that such a thing wouldn't be so unethical as we would likely first assume.

By doing this, they would achieve several important and worthy goals:

1. Prove to general public that they can create much better and more popular music than pop stars, only if they wanted to.
2. Improve general public's music taste because their pop music would be of much higher quality than today's pop, even though it would still be very catchy and popular.
3. Make their names famous and by doing so earn hoards of new classical music fans who would be interested to discover their other, more serious classical stuff, not just their pop works.
4. Bring about some justice, artificial and undeserving pop stars millionaires would lose their popularity, and money and fame would go where they belong - to the real artists and real musicians.

So what do you think, should classical composers, apart from their classical pieces, also create pop music?


----------



## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

I think it's simply below the likes of Saariaho, Adams, Glass, Boulez, and Carter to write music with lyrics about "bitchez", "partying all night", and "moving your hips"... and that's what the public really wants - party music, fun music, music to "move your hips" to. It's about the lyrics, not the music, and I highly doubt they will even be able to notice "higher quality pop music" when they hear it. "High quality" kind of goes against the ideals of today's pop culture in general.

Even if they were to be successful, I highly doubt that many would be "converted" to classical music like you describe just because their favorite popular music artists had composed "some of this weird stuff" too. I think it's more likely that the public will separate these two and think of the classical music as unique private endeavors rather than another facet of their composition that should be explored.

Overall, I don't believe in sacrificing values for popularity - if this is what it will become, I much rather leave classical music the way it is - wonderful, obscure, yet all the more special for its lucky fans.


----------



## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

In my opinion, everything you said in that post is ********.

The 'real artists and real musicians' bit really smacks of elitism. As does the 'improving the general public's music taste' bit. Actually the whole thing is elitist and misguided.

Rather than the chess analogy, think of the pop music realm as being like MMA and the classical realm as being like boxing. A fighter can be very good in one of these sports but if he switched to the other discipline he would struggle because the necessary skills and expertise slightly different. Similarly, a reputable classical composer will struggle to mould his skills to the wants of the pop industry.

Most importantly, I hope that musicians don't pigeonhole themselves as classical or pop or whatever. I know I don't. Composers should create the kind of music they want to, for whatever reason, including financial gain.


----------



## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

Yes, however, Mozart did some "pop", too. He wrote Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, Beethoven wrote many bagatellas, Fur Elize being the most well known. Bach and Handel wrote some lighter entertaining music too, such as Water Music, Music for the Royal Fireworks and Brandenburg concertos.

All of these pieces were, and still are very popular, and are much lighter and more entertaining than some other stuff they wrote.

However, the fact that they composed this did not make them any less great composers, simply because all of these works, despite being light, popular and entertaining, are still of very high musical quality.

What is even more important, these light pieces succeed in making them popular among general public, and those very works are responsible for recruiting many of the classical music fans. Most of us, even when we were kids, heard Eine kleine nachtmusik, liked it, and wanted to know more about that kind of music, because it was so special, and so unlike any pop music we ever heard, despite being incredibly catchy.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Air said:


> I think it's simply below the likes of Saariaho, Adams, Glass, Boulez, and Carter to write music with lyrics about "bitchez", "partying all night", and "moving your hips"... and that's what the public really wants - party music, fun music, music to "move your hips" to. It's about the lyrics, not the music


it's a lot about the sound, pop music often harmonically is very simple but to me often sounds more daring in the use of effects, strange instruments and unusual combination of tones


----------



## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

> Most importantly, I hope that musicians don't pigeonhole themselves as classical or pop or whatever. I know I don't. Composers should create the kind of music they want to, for whatever reason, including financial gain.


I agree with this. I also dislike these sharp divisions in music, and i would like everyone to be comfortable composing any kind of music they want, and for whatever reason they want.



> Rather than the chess analogy, think of the pop music realm as being like MMA and the classical realm as being like boxing


Maybe it's true. But there are still some individual martial arts that are most useful for MMA. I still tend to think strong background in classical music could only be advantage for anyone trying to create good pop songs. If someone is really that good a musician and that talented, he would be able to use his music skills for somewhat different purposes (like writing pop music).


----------



## PhillipPark (Jun 22, 2011)

As someone who is intently studying composition, I would probably surprise most in saying that I do not mind pop music (I don't intentionally listen to it, but I don't bash it either). In my opinion, Pop is a reflection of mass taste: it serves as a social backbone. It commands one to be extroverted whereas in most cases, Classical demands the exact opposite (and is often a reflection of the current schools of thought). 

In regards to the question of "what if Classical composers wrote pop music?": I don't think it would be well received. If said composers attempted to apply more intricate aspects to the music, it would lose it's identity as Pop.


----------



## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

norman bates said:


> it's a lot about the sound, pop music often harmonically is very simple but to me often sounds more daring in the use of effects, strange instruments and unusual combination of tones


I should have differentiated between what many call "popular music" and the music that is truly popular among the general public today... aka "pop culture". There are a lot of admirable "popular music" artists out there, even more then there are classical music artists probably, but these artists are struggling just as much to making a name for themselves as our classical musicians are and though there music is good, it's far from being popular. At most, they are remnants of past great bands with nowhere near the acclaim - Bob Dylan, Metallica, and the such.

My main worry has nothing to do with classical music in specific - but the fact that good music in general, no need to differentiate between classical and popular, is dying out in the estimation of the public in all respects.


----------



## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

For PhillipPark and others two questions:

1. If the identity of pop music is its simplicity, aren't classical composers able to achieve a lot even with simpler things (there are many very well known and catchy short themes in classical music)

2. Would it be possible to make a symphony out of very good pop song. For example, take some really good pop song, extract its theme, and apply to this theme everything you need to develop it to write symphony, (or at least a movement), you could then try othing some other appropriate stuff for other movements, so that entire symphony makes sense. For example, could "Smoke on the water" be developed into symphony?


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Should pop musicians also write classical music? 

It could spread it among mass audience even better than what you propose.

Akon - Symphony No. 1 "Na Na Na" - would like to hear that one


----------



## Godot (Jul 3, 2011)

I don't understand why there would be a need to "Improve general public's music taste".

We have pop and we have classical so why do we need classical composers writing pop?

It's like saying poets should write lyrics to improve music. It's the answer to a question no one asked.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

PhillipPark said:


> In regards to the question of "what if Classical composers wrote pop music?": I don't think it would be well received. If said composers attempted to apply more intricate aspects to the music, it would lose it's identity as Pop.


i'm not so sure about that. A lot of popular songs of the past are quite complex, think of Vernon Duke, Alec Wilder (actually two real classical composers), Richard Rodgers etc. David Raksin's Laura was considered too complex for the taste of the public, and it's one of the most famous songs ever written.


----------



## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Whistlerguy said:


> I still tend to think strong background in classical music could only be advantage for anyone trying to create good pop songs.


Well, that's entirely subjective. The question is would they be able to create music that taps into the hearts and minds of millions of people and catches the global zeitgeist as well as someone like Lady Gaga or Rihanna? I also think this has as much to do with things like sociology and psychology as it does with just the music. Does the composer understand more than just the music but what the populace want from an artist in toto. Classically trained composers will be musically proficient enough to hear what's popular and assimilate it into their music, but whether the can do more than just creating a pastiche of pop music is debatable and solely down to individual composers and their temperaments.



norman bates said:


> it's a lot about the sound, pop music often harmonically is very simple but to me often sounds more daring in the use of effects, strange instruments and unusual combination of tones


When you put it like that, it's amazing how similar post-Cageian classical and pop music sound alike when described in literature.


----------



## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

> It's like saying poets should write lyrics to improve music.


Maybe they really should. In my country, several poems from Serbian romantic poets are already made into pop songs, mostly by Zdravko Čolić.

Kornelije Kovač, being an educated composer, also composed many pop songs. He had classical education.

So the things that I mentioned in the beginning aren't so impossible. Zdravko Čolić is by far most popular singer in Serbia. He sings pop music. Many of these songs are composed by classically educated Kovač, and lyrics for many come from our romantic and modern poets.


----------



## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

This is slightly off topic, but it surprises me that pop music companies don't steal more melodies from classical music, seeing as how it's usually a catchy melody that makes a record sell. I'm sure it would be pretty easy to get a record into the charts simply by stealing, say, the famous melody from Schubert's Piano Trio No. 2 and making it into a pop song by adding lyrics and modernizing the harmony. There's no copyright on Schubert, Tchaikovsky, etc., so what's stopping record companies from plundering these guys?


----------



## Godot (Jul 3, 2011)

Whistlerguy said:


> Maybe they really should. In my country, several poems from Serbian romantic poets are already made into pop songs, mostly by Zdravko Čolić.
> 
> Kornelije Kovač, being an educated composer, also composed many pop songs. He had classical education.
> 
> So the things that I mentioned in the beginning aren't so impossible. Zdravko Čolić is by far most popular singer in Serbia. He sings pop music. Many of these songs are composed by classically educated Kovač, and lyrics for many come from our romantic and modern poets.


Maybe I wasn't clear. What I mean is that there is no need to cross the two forms.

Has the classically educated composer and poetic lyrics helped raise the public's taste in Serbia? By the fact you made this thread I think I know the answer.


----------



## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

So, if you wanna know what is the result when classically educated composer makes pop music, hear some examples by Kornelije Kovač (sung by Zdravko Čolić):

This one:





And this one:


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Argus said:


> When you put it like that, it's amazing how similar post-Cageian classical and pop music sound alike when described in literature.


, though i'm not exactly a John Cage fan you're right 
Anyway also Boulez thinks that popular music though repetitive and simple is very interesting for what regards instrumentation and sound.


----------



## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Whistlerguy said:


> Maybe they really should. In my country, several poems from Serbian romantic poets are already made into pop songs, mostly by Zdravko Čolić.









Webernite said:


> This is slightly off topic, but it surprises me that pop music companies don't steal more melodies from classical music, seeing as how it's usually a catchy melody that makes a record sell. I'm sure it would be pretty easy to get a record into the charts simply by stealing, say, the famous melody from Schubert's Piano Trio No. 2 and making it into a pop song by adding lyrics and modernizing the harmony. There's no copyright on Schubert, Tchaikovsky, etc., so what's stopping record companies from plundering these guys?


----------



## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

Has the classically educated composer and poetic lyrics helped raise the public's taste in Serbia?

To some part of population yes, but not to most of them. But even slight and partial improvement is a good thing.
There were around 80 000 people on Zdravko Čolić's concert in Belgrade few weeks ago. People appreciate such music, even though it is not very high quality, but it is still better than most today's pop.


----------



## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

> This is slightly off topic, but it surprises me that pop music companies don't steal more melodies from classical music, seeing as how it's usually a catchy melody that makes a record sell. I'm sure it would be pretty easy to get a record into the charts simply by stealing, say, the famous melody from Schubert's Piano Trio No. 2 and making it into a pop song by adding lyrics and modernizing the harmony. There's no copyright on Schubert, Tchaikovsky, etc., so what's stopping record companies from plundering these guys?


I want to know it too!!!

I think it would be very possible, both to steal classical and make it into very successful pop, and also to use some great pop melodies as a basis for longer classical works, such as symphonies.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Godot said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear. What I mean is that there is no need to cross the two forms.


Orson Welles did movies that were no avantgarde like Vertov nor commercial movies, but were at the same time popular and complex


----------



## Godot (Jul 3, 2011)

norman bates said:


> Orson Welles did movies that were no avantgarde like Vertov nor commercial movies, but were at the same time popular and complex


There's nothing wrong with things being popular and complex. I thought we were talking about pop music as a genre not as in popular. I may have got my wires crossed.

On a side note: I'd say that Welles never really set out to do populist work (unless it was roles to fund his own productions) whereas the original post was saying that classical composers should change their work to suit a popular market.


----------



## PhillipPark (Jun 22, 2011)

Does Pop have to be modern, in ordered to be considered as such? I am not exactly sure....but I assumed as much.


And for clarification: are we talking about Pop music, or popular music?


----------



## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

If we're talking about "plundering", I believe some examples may be readily cited. Did not Eric Carmen use the theme from Rachmaninoff's "Empty Arms and Full Moon" in his "All by Myself" song? It was--and is--one of the most beautiful works ever recorded--as both an instrumental piece and as a song--at least IMHO.


----------



## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I really think it's up to the composer...yet again. Really, can anyone see Boulez or Stockhausen topping the charts???:lol:

In all seriousness, let the darn composers do their own thing. If they want to write popular music, they will. We already have enough loss of individuality these days as it is.


----------



## Stasou (Apr 23, 2011)

"Should classical composers ALSO write pop music?"

No.


----------



## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

If they are so high and wonderful then of course they should write pop...wouldn't it be the best ever...prolly not


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well classical composers have been composing more "popular" music for yonks (as against the "serious" things - although I agree, these distinctions can be very artificial) Eg. Schubert & Puccini penned a number of operettas, Paolo Tosti (who was highly admired by guys like Verdi) wrote many popular songs still in the repertoire of opera singers today, guys like Fritz Kreisler composed some of the best salon pieces, & even Elgar wrote some of this kind of stuff (_Chanson de Matin & Chanson de Nuit_).

In the c20th, the boundaries became increasingly blurred - eg. Americans George Gershwin & Leonard Bernstein composed both musicals and "serious" concert pieces (indeed, Bernstein's musical "On the Town" started life as the ballet "Fancy Free" & after the musical closed on Broadway, he refashioned it into another ballet!). Leroy Anderson was also classically trained, but specialised in lighter orchestral music like "The Typewriter." Not to speak of many British composers who were that way as well, but wrote their most well-known works in the "popular" realm - eg. Arthur Sullivan, Eric Coates, John Foulds, Albert Ketelbey, to name a few.

Even Shostakovich kind of payed homage to the lighter realm, with things like his arrangement of "Tea for Two." As for more recent composers like Astor Piazzolla, his music wouldn't have been what it was without it's strong elements of "popular" music - namely the tango. Even our own contemporary Australian composer Graham Koehne composed an orchestral piece called "Elevator Music" in homage to guys like Mantovani & Henry Mancini. These are only a few examples, doubtless there are dozens more. Then there are many classically trained musicians who made their careers in other realms, eg. Burt Bacharach in "pop" & Dave Brubeck in jazz - & these guys are now quite old, they were already doing this many decades ago & I find their music just as rewarding as say Stravinsky or Carter, to name two randomly...


----------



## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't believe the music would translate as well as you think. I got into classical music from film scores, in fact if you got the FSM message board you'll be able to find years old posts from a 'Nix.' An entirely debatable idea is that film scores are the 'pop' music of classical. And whenever a classical composer like Corigliano, Tan Dun or Goldenthal were scoring a film there would be a collective groan from the film score community. The music just didn't translate as well for people who are looking for something straightforward in their music. Another thing to note is that classical contemporary composers, or ones influenced by such (like Howard Shore), are the most frequent group of composers that often get their scores rejected. I think classical musicians are reluctant to 'dumb down' their music to cater to the needs of the masses- probably out of fear of a loss of self respect, or the respect of their colleagues. 

And before anyone jumps at me and says plenty of great classical composers had steady work as film composers, let me just point out that those who did- Copland, Vaughan Williams, Shostakovich, were all conservative composers to begin with, and they were writing in an era when there was a lot more glamour surrounding the film industry.


----------



## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

@Whistlerguy, sounds like you have the key to what "good" music is, perhaps you should write music yourself and show those pop stars how its done.


----------



## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

I know, this is one of those unpopular threads. And I agree with what many of you said. I was just pondering on the possibility that pop music would maybe be better if classical composers tried to make their contributions. There are reasons why the current state of affairs is as it is, and it is unlikely that much will change.

I am still too naive, idealistic, and I have this revolutionary spirit in myself, probably due to my age.

As for my own compositions, I doubt there will be any unless I get some music education. I would really like to get music education, but at my age (24) it is almost impossible, since I would have to start from zero.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Whistlerguy said:


> I am still too naive, idealistic, and I have this revolutionary spirit in myself, probably due to my age.
> 
> As for my own compositions, I doubt there will be any unless I get some music education. I would really like to get music education, but at my age (24) it is almost impossible, since I would have to start from zero.


I started my serious music studies a little later than you, though I had been playing music for a long time previous to them. Admittedly I still have a long way to go, but I have come a long way in a short amount of time and I can tell you its all about the journey with classical music. Just enjoy yourself and realize you have a long time to learn, its all about enjoying the process and finding inspiration with it. Many great compositions were written by people who were getting quite old (Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances, and Bruckner's 9th come to mind).


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Whistlerguy said:


> ...I would really like to get music education, but at my age (24) it is almost impossible, since I would have to start from zero...


This is a bit off-topic, but anyway. I agree with the tenor of Whistlerguy's comments above on this. Not all composers started composing in the womb like W.A.Mozart. UK composer Michael Tippett, for example, only started studying composition seriously at about age 18 (not much younger than yourself) & his first work to make any impact was the _Concerto for Double String Orchestra_ which was when he was about 30. So it's probably "never too late" as they say...


----------



## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

Don't film and video game composers already combine some pop techniques with some classical techniques?


----------



## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

If you ever whistled the tune from Bolero, you've heard pop music from Maurice Ravel.
If you know "Mack the Knife" or "Whiskey Bar", you've heard pop music from Kurt Weill.
If you can sing "Maria" or "Tonight", you've heard pop music from Leonard Bernstein.

Now, what about the last fifty years? Check in 2061 and you'll probably know a bunch of songs that were written by people who became recognized later in their careers as "serious composers".

And it works both ways. Gershwin wrote loads of popular songs before his symphonic works. Duke Ellington mastered longer forms and wrote excellent pieces like "The RIver" and the "Sacred Concerts" after he turned 60.


----------



## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Kopachris said:


> Don't film and video game composers already combine some pop techniques with some classical techniques?


I think so. I can't help but be reminded of video game music whenever I hear a piano cycle of short character pieces by Schumann...


----------



## kanonathena (Jun 25, 2010)

Classical composer and pop musician have different personality, value and interest. All these translate into their music.

What the masses enjoy is the personality and attitude of the pop musicians conveyed by their music, something they can relate to, something they can find in themselves.


----------



## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

They can probably compose works similar to those of "The Last Shadow Puppets":


----------



## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Video game music is an interesting case. Much of it is forgettable, but when it's good, it seems like an exercise in compacting as much substance as possible into a static 1-3 minute loop without drawing attention to itself. A modern Satie might have enjoyed the results.



waldvogel said:


> If you ever whistled the tune from Bolero, you've heard pop music from Maurice Ravel.
> If you know "Mack the Knife" or "Whiskey Bar", you've heard pop music from Kurt Weill.
> If you can sing "Maria" or "Tonight", you've heard pop music from Leonard Bernstein.
> 
> ...


If "pop" is defined this broadly then it's not even worth discussing. Language is flexible; meanings change. There is a certain idiom people imagine nowadays when they hear the word pop, and it certainly isn't anything like Ravel's Bolero.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Video game music is an interesting case. Much of it is forgettable, but when it's good, it seems like an exercise in compacting as much substance as possible into a static 1-3 minute loop without drawing attention to itself. A modern Satie might have enjoyed the results.
> 
> If "pop" is defined this broadly then it's not even worth discussing. Language is flexible; meanings change. There is a certain idiom people imagine nowadays when they hear the word pop, and it certainly isn't anything like Ravel's Bolero.


yes but in the bolero (like for example in the carmina burana) there's a pop sensibility. A lot of so called light music is popular music by classical musicians. Leroy Anderson's Sleigh ride is another famous example. Frank Zappa is a musician who linked the classical (and the avantgarde too) with pop music...


----------



## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

vanessa mae, symphonic power metal band that converted some Bach and paganini stuff, and Bobby McFerrin doing acapella on popular classical melody.


----------



## Theophrastus (Aug 13, 2011)

My immediate reaction, having only read the first post, is that Whistlerguy's basic assumption is wrong - or to put it another way he's using the wrong metaphor. Classical composers and pop musicians are not playing the same game. The aims, contexts and traditions of each are different and I'm not convinced that being good at one will make you good at the other.


----------



## Noak (Jul 18, 2009)

This topic makes me think of an artist I really like called Simon Bookish. He is a classicaly trained musician and composer that writes pop music. There aren't a lot of songs by him on youtube but these two are there at least: 









EDIT: I found that you can listen to his entire album here: http://www.simonbookish.com/everything_everything/


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tut, tut now....

Apart from more than smacking of some major condescending elitism (as well as striking me as zany.) 
I must correct you on what seems to be an assumption that many a pop composer is theoretically ignorant: many a pop performer and composer has studied a fair amount of 'formal' -- i.e. common practice classical -- music theory.

Scratch around a bit and find a now elderly country western singer, known for flawless phrasing and breath control -- she studied voice at Juilliard. Peter Gabriel holds an earned Doctorate in Music. 60's - 70's rock guitarist Peter Frampton attended a state university, undergraduate music performance, and also got 'all that theory.' He later established a scholarship for music composition - any genre - at that university. Burt Bacharach studied composition with Darius Milhaud at Mills College.

There are more and more current, Lady Gaga having attended Juilliard for several years of undergrad, etc.

You are mistaking 'simplicity' for 'simple-minded.'

The glaringly overlooked and most salient difference -- a difference which goes miles beyond the differences of depth of harmonic vocabulary or the near intuitive 'motor habits' of composers in their own genres -- is the factor of the sincerity of the entire endeavor.

That pop composer, used to thinking within the various formats and expectations of the genre, genuinely arrives at something which excites them as much as a classical composer is excited by solving the problem of writing a concerto in a completely different syntax and format: each composer feels equally excited to find 'that which works.' If the composer has been regularly active in writing over sometime, their personal stamp will also be on the medium, that 'signature' comes from deep familiarity with the craft, fluid at it so it is a second nature.

What is inherent -- and must be present -- is the sincerity (genuine interest in writing what you write), from the gut and the heart. In that, I think you have wholesale underestimated both musicians and the general listening public, who more often than not Do get if the work and its performance are sincere, regardless of genre.

If you ain't got a feeling for it, the end product may be 'slick' - but it will also be a mere pastiche, not an honorable 'Hommage.'

What classical composers can do well is a 'take' on a popular form or format:
Guillaume Connesson ~ Techno Parade -- Earnest, sincere, in a sort of 'hommage mode,' just fine, 'clever' while genuinely fun, yet nothing that would be desired on the program if you were going out to a techno dance party. It just is not the "real thing."





What classical composers are not so great at is in the realms of the likes of James Booker's arrangement of "On The Sunny Side Of The Street"





Though it is I imagine by your reckoningmuch less "complex" and not so nearly "sophisticated" -- Lol. Here is the score, just found for me by a friend, and offered up here:
Transcription by Ian Pallister, 2011 (fresh!)
http://www.ipallister.webspace.virginmedia.com/SunnySideBooker.pdf

Sorry, no matter how deft or facile, I don't think any classical composer would have spontaneously come up with That arrangement in that style, and no performer could just 'hit upon' the impeccable timing of Hooker's playing, which is something completely beyond the realms of all accurate notation.

As to ripping off tunes from composers of yore ~ odd thing, every so often, as fast as fashion, there is a change of fashion in melody; its contour, its interval content, its lengths. Those documented differences, if you are familiar with their earmarks, can readily date a particular song or work.

The old tunes aren't the right shape, not the preferred interval content, as close as you would think a diatonic melody could be to many others... They sound, and this is dreaded in the pop industry, "dated."


----------



## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

i thought they did


----------



## Merve (Jun 7, 2012)

About using existing classical pieces in pop:

I can't believe no one has made a comment about the Canon (you know, Canon in D, Pachelbel?) chords, if they did I missed it. I listen to quite a bit of pop and more often than not, the melody is based on the Canon chords. (And not even pop but also some punk, alternative, rock, etc) In fact, a lot of "musically educated" people use this as a reason for hating pop music. Me, even when I recognize the chords, doesn't really change my attitude towards the song, but you can't deny that it's an unoriginal base melody.

But apart from this, the pop music industry _does_ use a lot of classical music in it, although of course not as much as they _could_ use, and usually only "stealing" very popular pieces. I'd have to hunt the songs now, but I remember for sure that I've heard at least the following converted into popular pop songs: Swan Lake, Moonlight Sonata (mvt1), Bolero.


----------



## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Most of them would have to be resurrected first.


----------



## mleghorn (May 18, 2011)

99% of the art that goes into pop music happens behind the scenes, including knob twitching, pitch correction, album cover design, PR, marketing, and even picking the kids with the right look to stand in as supposed musicians. If a pop song actually happens to have interesting music in it, no one will care to know who the composer was who made the music.


----------



## mleghorn (May 18, 2011)

Merve said:


> But apart from this, the pop music industry _does_ use a lot of classical music in it, although of course not as much as they _could_ use, and usually only "stealing" very popular pieces.


Pop music can use classical music because no one will notice.


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

This is a non-discussion. Nobody "should" write anything. Besides, classical composers don't have a clue how to make pop hitsongs. 
If the goal is to get more people interested in classical music, I think one should try to increase exposure to real classical music and not some pop/classical hybrid. Those who are really interested _will_ start to explore classical music. In the end love for music must come from within, it can't be forced upon people. Let the majority be happy with their superficial and simplistic music.


----------



## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

I prefer country genre that is enriched by classical themes! :tiphat:


----------



## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

DeepR said:


> This is a non-discussion. Nobody "should" write anything. Besides, classical composers don't have a clue how to make pop hitsongs.
> If the goal is to get more people interested in classical music, I think one should try to increase exposure to real classical music and not some pop/classical hybrid. Those who are really interested _will_ start to explore classical music. In the end love for music must come from within, it can't be forced upon people. Let the majority be happy with their superficial and simplistic music.


I agree with all of that except the last sentence.

Has anyone defined pop music? I mean are we to include Paul Simon and Stevie Wonder? Or are we talking only about the music that dominates the top 20 charts and MTV?

There is nothing simplistic or superficial in much of the output the two songwriters I mention above. In fact if you'd care to look at some of their best songs, you may find subtlety and imagination is evident and no simpler than some songs of Schubert and Schumann. And in the more dance pop styles of Lady GaGa et al, while the songs would usually not stand up to a piano duet arrangement (ha ha) they are conceived as 'productions'. The sophistication and skill in the manipulation of sound that goes on in the background can be of a very high order.

To write good pop music you have to love pop music, you have to live pop music and you have to listen to pop music continuously. Is that something a 'classical' composer would _want _to do?


----------

