# Art of Fugue



## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

The last work of J.S. Bach.

I have a CD of this. At first this seemed to me quite unapproachable (maybe even more than Beethoven's Grosse Fuge) but after few listens it started to make sense. I have listened to this entire work at least 7-8 times and I still don't get it completely. But I like the music. It is elegant, it's not irritant and it is quite stimulating. I can listen to it when I am doing some work on computer or something like that. It's too long for me to listen to it in its entirety completely focused, without doing other things. But it provides great background, and even though it was mainly used as technical demonstration of counterpoint, sometimes it causes quite a lot of emotion. In some moments it is sadness or longing and in some other moments it's almost like some kind of elevation or transcendental calmness.

It is very complicated work and it doesn't have easily recognizable and striking melodies which is why it is quite inaccessible in the beginning, but I hope with more listening I would get it even more. I'd like to ask others about their experience with this piece?


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## Earthling (May 21, 2010)

Its definitely not for the faint of heart! I've heard at least five different recordings in the past (scored for different instruments or ensembles). I just recently got *Jordi Savall's *recording and I've been dipping into it and enjoying it a lot. It will bear lots of sittings for me to even grasp the tip of the iceberg!

According to the liner notes on that CD, Bach probably never intended for the Art of Fugue to be performed from start to finish, though they were also more than mere theoretical exercises. I do think a skilful performance is needed to keep the different melodic lines from turning to mush.

One aspect I knew I would appreciate in Savall's recording is that different combinations of instrumentation are used for the different fugue-- I think that variety might be needed for something as massive and dense as this (I do still enjoy *Munchinger's *lush romantic string orchestra version however).

The last trailing notes of the final fugue fills me with such sadness.


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## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

Could someone make some kind of parallel between The Art of Fugue and Goldberg Variations?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Someone else in this forum pointed me to this website for some nice annotations of The Art of the fugue.

http://www.flagmusic.com/aof.php

The musical examples are synthesized I think, but are very nicely done, and they are complete. This is a most relaxing version of AOF


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## Earthling (May 21, 2010)

Whistlerguy said:


> Could someone make some kind of parallel between The Art of Fugue and Goldberg Variations?


I wouldn't think so, except insofar as the subject of _the Art of Fugue _is varied from one fugue to the next. Whereas in the _Goldberg Variations_, my understanding is that this isn't a theme and variations in the sense of the word from the classical era onward-- that is, the _Goldberg Variations _is a series of variations based on a certain chord progression (and minor key variations on that chord progression), not on the theme (the beautiful aria). At least that is my own (very limited!) understanding of the principle behind the _Goldberg Variations_. If my understanding on this is correct, this puts the _Goldberg Variations _closer to jazz than a classical theme and variations (though it certainly doesn't sound like jazz!).


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## Boccherini (Mar 29, 2010)

Whistlerguy said:


> The last work of J.S. Bach.
> 
> I have a CD of this. At first this seemed to me quite unapproachable (maybe even more than Beethoven's Grosse Fuge) but after few listens it started to make sense. I have listened to this entire work at least 7-8 times and I still don't get it completely. But I like the music. It is elegant, it's not irritant and it is quite stimulating. I can listen to it when I am doing some work on computer or something like that. It's too long for me to listen to it in its entirety completely focused, without doing other things. *But it provides great background*, and even though it was mainly used as technical demonstration of counterpoint, sometimes it causes quite a lot of emotion. In some moments it is sadness or longing and in some other moments it's almost like some kind of elevation or transcendental calmness.
> 
> It is very complicated work and it doesn't have easily recognizable and striking melodies which is why it is quite inaccessible in the beginning, but I hope with more listening I would get it even more. I'd like to ask others about their experience with this piece?


It's so outrageously amusing when I see people "using" music as worthless background, since music, mostly, does not provide a _great_ background for it was not composed to that specific and superficial purpose in general, especially when it comes to Bach's eminent works.


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## motpasm23 (May 30, 2009)

Boccherini said:


> It's so outrageously amusing when I see people "using" music as worthless background, since music, mostly, does not provide a _great_ background for it was not composed to that specific and superficial purpose in general, especially when it comes to Bach's eminent works.


way to be pretentious and reinforce every stereotype about classical music nerds. heaven forbid someone appreciate music differently than you...


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## janne (Apr 13, 2010)

Whistlerguy said:


> The last work of J.S. Bach.
> 
> I have a CD of this. At first this seemed to me quite unapproachable (maybe even more than Beethoven's Grosse Fuge) but after few listens it started to make sense. I have listened to this entire work at least 7-8 times and I still don't get it completely. But I like the music. It is elegant, it's not irritant and it is quite stimulating. I can listen to it when I am doing some work on computer or something like that. It's too long for me to listen to it in its entirety completely focused, without doing other things. But it provides great background, and even though it was mainly used as technical demonstration of counterpoint, sometimes it causes quite a lot of emotion. In some moments it is sadness or longing and in some other moments it's almost like some kind of elevation or transcendental calmness.
> 
> It is very complicated work and it doesn't have easily recognizable and striking melodies which is why it is quite inaccessible in the beginning, but I hope with more listening I would get it even more. I'd like to ask others about their experience with this piece?


You write something essential: "it was mainly used as technical demonstration of counterpoint"
So you already have a background, but you chose to overlook this and use it as background music and focus on the emotional side. That doesn't make any sense to me.


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## janne (Apr 13, 2010)

motpasm23 said:


> way to be pretentious and reinforce every stereotype about classical music nerds. heaven forbid someone appreciate music differently than you...


That's not what Boccherini said.

Whistlerguy is clearly struggling to get the most out of his listening. He feels there is something more, something deeper than pure emotions and recognizable and striking melodies. (that is my interpretation of his post).
So his use of it as background music (believe me, Bach did NOT write this as background music) seems to stop him from getting more out of it.

I would say that Art of fugue is written with focus on form, not emotions. Why not help the man understand that ?


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## Boccherini (Mar 29, 2010)

motpasm23 said:


> way to be pretentious and reinforce every stereotype about classical music nerds. heaven forbid someone appreciate music differently than you...


Hmmm interesting...
Personally, I would really want to know how could you appreciate classical music if used as background.

As for the emotional manifestation regarding the _Art of Fugue_, I'm not sure whether it's a complete sham or not; The absolute perfection, architectural perfection regarding the utter beauty of the structure of that composition, makes the sensation of a great art and maybe, in parallel, affects on the emotions too.


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## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

Well, I would really like to focus exclusively on the music while listening to The Art of Fugue, but it is 75 minutes long, and, from the layperson point of view, there is not a lot of difference between various parts of this work. (of course there is a difference, but it is not so obvious to me) Even though Beethoven's "Ninth Symphony" has the same duration (75 minutes) its material is much more obviously variable (and more interesting, IMO), so I didn't have a problem listening to it in its entirety completely focused, without doing other things.

The only way I could achieve the same with The Art of Fugue, is to listen to one Contrapunctus at a time, with total focus.

Otherwise I can use it as a background, but still I will be quite focused both on music and on what I'm doing.

Also, I think it is too much to say that The Art of Fugue is totally emotionless. Even though he wrote it primarily as the demonstration of counterpoint, I can't imagine that someone like J.S. Bach would write anything so long, and completely soulless, dry and emotionless.


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## janne (Apr 13, 2010)

Whistlerguy said:


> Well, I would really like to focus exclusively on the music while listening to The Art of Fugue, but it is 75 minutes long, and, from the layperson point of view, there is not a lot of difference between various parts of this work. (of course there is a difference, but it is not so obvious to me) Even though Beethoven's "Ninth Symphony" has the same duration (75 minutes) its material is much more obviously variable (and more interesting, IMO), so I didn't have a problem listening to it in its entirety completely focused, without doing other things.
> 
> The only way I could achieve the same with The Art of Fugue, is to listen to one Contrapunctus at a time, with total focus.
> 
> ...


No one said that the Art of fugue is dry and emotionless.
Why are you considering emotions and form/structure as two opposites instead of two things that enrich each other ?

Edit: You are clearly trying to make the Art of fugue into something you want it to be. To be fair to Bach, try and understand what he intended it to be.


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## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

> No one said that the Art of fugue is dry and emotionless.
> Why are you considering emotions and form/structure as two opposites instead of two things that enrich each other ?


That's not what I said.

I said:


> . Even though he wrote it primarily as the demonstration of counterpoint, I can't imagine that someone like J.S. Bach would write anything so long, and completely soulless, dry and emotionless.


This doesn't mean that I think that emotions and form are mutually exclusive. I underlined that I think that I can't even imagine it being that way. Someone like Bach, IMO, would try to achieve both in the same work.


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## janne (Apr 13, 2010)

Whistlerguy said:


> That's not what I said.
> 
> I said:
> 
> This doesn't mean that I think that emotions and form are mutually exclusive. I underlined that I think that I can't even imagine it being that way. Someone like Bach, IMO, would try to achieve both in the same work.


1.
You can keep listen to it as an emotional expression or simply use it as background music.

2.
You can do research about it and try to understand Bach's intensions and the structure of the piece which eventually will add a lot more to the emotional experience.

The choice is yours.


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## Boccherini (Mar 29, 2010)

janne said:


> 1.
> You can keep listen to it as an emotional expression or simply use it as background music.
> 
> 2.
> ...


I would pick number 1! Because number 2 is intellectually challenging! (which makes me a headache). Either way, who cares, it's just music, shallow and useless entertainment if you ask me


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## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

OK, I will choose



> 2.
> You can do research about it and try to understand Bach's intensions and the structure of the piece which eventually will add a lot more to the emotional experience.


Is someone willing to help me "decode" it? I already read that it was his attempt to demonstrate all the possibilities of counterpoint and also that it was influenced by Pythagorean philosophy.

But in order to understand it fully I would have to attend advanced classes on counterpoint and also to read some books about Pythagorean philosophy. At this moment I cant afford this. Is there some other more direct (though not so thorough) way of understanding works such as The Art of Fugue?


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## janne (Apr 13, 2010)

Whistlerguy said:


> OK, I will choose
> 
> Is someone willing to help me "decode" it? I already read that it was his attempt to demonstrate all the possibilities of counterpoint and also that it was influenced by Pythagorean philosophy.
> 
> But in order to understand it fully I would have to attend advanced classes on counterpoint and also to read some books about Pythagorean philosophy. At this moment I cant afford this. Is there some other more direct (though not so thorough) way of understanding works such as The Art of Fugue?


First of all. You dont have to attend any course on counterpoint and Pythagorean philosophy. I dont even think you have to walk to your local library since you have internet, and that will do just fine.

I believe the art of fugue involves three basic concepts. Fugue (of course) which also involves counterpoint and then musical theme and variation. (correct me if I'm wrong)
Do you have a basic understanding of those concepts ?


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## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

I have some basic understanding. I will read more about these concepts, then I will tell you what I learned.


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## janne (Apr 13, 2010)

Take them one at a time. And don't forget to listen to musical examples a long the way.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Whistlerguy said:


> The last work of J.S. Bach.
> 
> I have a CD of this. At first this seemed to me quite unapproachable (maybe even more than Beethoven's Grosse Fuge) but after few listens it started to make sense. I have listened to this entire work at least 7-8 times and I still don't get it completely. But I like the music. It is elegant, it's not irritant and it is quite stimulating. I can listen to it when I am doing some work on computer or something like that. It's too long for me to listen to it in its entirety completely focused, without doing other things. But it provides great background, and even though it was mainly used as technical demonstration of counterpoint, sometimes it causes quite a lot of emotion. In some moments it is sadness or longing and in some other moments it's almost like some kind of elevation or transcendental calmness.
> 
> It is very complicated work and it doesn't have easily recognizable and striking melodies which is why it is quite inaccessible in the beginning, but I hope with more listening I would get it even more. I'd like to ask others about their experience with this piece?


You might like to be aware of the historic context in which Bach wrote his later works.

Bach composed several masterpieces in the 1740s in pursuit of "musical science". Two of these were summaries and studies of his art concerning the fugue, which was his compositional tool throughout his compositional career. These two works were _Art of Fugue_ and its companion piece _Musical Offering_. With the exception of the _Trio Sonata_ section of the latter where instrumentation, tempi markings and basso continuo parts fully written out, very little to no instrumentation were specified for the rest of _Musical Offering_, and indeed for all of _Art of Fugue_. Unspecified instrumentations even in published works were not uncommon in those days. There were many other works published by other composers in open score and these were also contrapuntal works more about the "science" of counterpoint and fugue. _Art of Fugue_ was no exception in that sense, and was published shortly after Bach's death probably under the supervision of his son C. P. E. Bach.

With this in mind, and if you have also listened to the _Trio Sonata_ section of _Musical Offering_, where it was clearly intended for performance (dedicated to the flute playing Frederick the Great), the music very clearly contrasts itself for performance versus study.

This is not to say of course, that the theoretic sections should not be performed and recorded for posterity to enjoy. I have recordings of both. Do I listen to _Art of Fugue_ as often as other works by Bach intended for performance? No, I don't. Do I enjoy it as much as those other works? Not nearly as much, except the _Trio Sonata_ section of _Musical Offering_. It is a work that is meant to be appreciated more by its mastery construction and treatment of the fugue, rather than how well it entertained Bach's employers/audiences or how spiritually it glorified Bach's God. You could listen to it repeatedly to gain familiarity and hopefully enjoyment that way. Or you could spend a lot of effort studying it, like scholars and performers do, perhaps with some minor musical headache along the way, too!


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## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

HarpshicordConcerto, this was very helpful.

I bought this CD out of curiosity, because somewhere I read that in this work Bach elevated his already astounding counterpoint technique to the highest level.

But you are right that the piece isn't very enjoyable.
There are other Bach's works that I do enjoy very much such as Brandenburg Concertos, Goldberg Variations, Orchestral Suites, Mass in B minor (though I have listened to this only once on Youtube - there is actually entire work available there divided in several videos).

Is Well Tempered Clavier also more for study than for performance?

I'd like to get this too, but I am not sure what to expect?


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Whistlerguy said:


> Is Well Tempered Clavier also more for study than for performance?
> 
> I'd like to get this too, but I am not sure what to expect?


Far more intended for performance than the later works we discussed above. The opening piece of _Book I_ contains one of the most popular of Bach's melodies. Bach's title page contain temperament suggestions, though it seems to be lost through time. These point to tuning etc. for the obvious instrument of choice, the good old harpsichord.


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## janne (Apr 13, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> You might like to be aware of the historic context in which Bach wrote his later works.
> 
> Bach composed several masterpieces in the 1740s in pursuit of "musical science". Two of these were summaries and studies of his art concerning the fugue, which was his compositional tool throughout his compositional career. These two works were _Art of Fugue_ and its companion piece _Musical Offering_. With the exception of the _Trio Sonata_ section of the latter where instrumentation, tempi markings and basso continuo parts fully written out, very little to no instrumentation were specified for the rest of _Musical Offering_, and indeed for all of _Art of Fugue_. Unspecified instrumentations even in published works were not uncommon in those days. There were many other works published by other composers in open score and these were also contrapuntal works more about the "science" of counterpoint and fugue. _Art of Fugue_ was no exception in that sense, and was published shortly after Bach's death probably under the supervision of his son C. P. E. Bach.
> 
> ...


I could not have said it better myself.


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## Earthling (May 21, 2010)

For what it's worth, I've just posted a review of Jordi Savall's recording of _The Art of Fugue _ (on Alia) *HERE*. Coincidentally, I just got this a few days ago and I've been enjoying it.


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## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

Have you maybe listened to the version by Musica Antiqua Köln - Reinhard Goebel? (1984)

This is the version that I have. It's on one CD - 75'40

BTW, I read your review, it's interesting, I like it.


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## Earthling (May 21, 2010)

Thanks *Whistlerguy*. 

No, I don't know that Musica Antiqua Koln's recording. I checked out some samples of it however and it sounds like it has a bit of a romantic flair to it. Not that there is a "right" or "wrong" way to do the Art of Fugue (Bach didn't really leave any interpretive or instrumental clues for us). Bach can easily be played in so many different ways and on different instruments after all-- which is one of his wonderful strengths (perhaps akin to how Shakespeare can handle such a wide variety of interpretations).


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