# Cello for someone approaching late 20's. Too late?



## SayChiSinLo

Hi all, this is my first post, so be gentle please. 

A little something about myself, I'm 27. And I'm a tennis player. Fairly accomplished aside from turning professional (haha, to make it as a professional tennis player, you've got to be one-in-a-million). So, hand-eye coordination should be spot on if not excellent. So to sum up, fairly athletic.

Intelligence and career goes, I have a degree in cell and molecular biology and have work on cancer research since graduation. However, I'm not using that degree anymore and I am in the middle of a career change. Why? Because I don't want a Ph.D, and in science, if you don't have a Ph.D/M.D., your ceiling is really low with little career advancement. I have just gotten myself into a MBA program and will be focused in getting my foot into the business world.

I have always loved music, all kinds of music. The modern day crap that we call pop/hip hop/r&b. However, some hip hop are truly great and borderline poetic, sadly those are the ones don't get radio play for obvious reasons. I also listen to traditional Chinese music every once in and have an eerie love for the Erhu. I also love classical music, but probably not as much as I do now, and I'll tell you why:

It was not a few days ago while studying for midterms for my MBA program, I had the opportunity to sit down and REALIZE the genius that was Beethoven, Mozart, and Vivaldi in particular. I understand Vivaldi's work mainly focused on the violin, but I am drawn to the cello. To me, the cello produces a fuller, deeper, richer sound. Also, there is something majestic about operating a ginormus wooden instrument. I have some appreciation for traditions being a tennis player. For example, my tennis racquet is spec'd heavy like the olden days. 

Now, you're probably wondering why I want to pick up an instrument. If you've been following my essay, I already have a lifetime hobby in tennis. So why do I need another one in music? I'll explain:
1) Like sports, I find music to be one of the few things that blur cultural/age/society differences. As in if you're good, and you have an appreciation for music/sport, it doesn't matter if you're from a different country/generation. If it's good enough to be appreciated, it's going to be appreciated universally.
2) While I am athletically gifted, as much as I workout and remain fit, this athletic ability will fade with time and I won't be able to play my aggressive style forever. Whereas in music, unless I am convinced otherwise, playability does not fade with time. It only gets better am I right? (Through practice and self-evaluation). 

So, after this long post, I'm finally getting to the meat of it. :lol:

Is it too late to start Cello at 27 and want to improve to play good music? If someone come to me and says s/he wants to start tennis at 27, I would definitely say s/he is too late.  

Thanks for reading, and I'm looking forward to your responses and contributions.

- Angus


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## Lukecash12

27 is not too late at all to learn the cello. In fact, it's a great age to start, considering that you probably understand the idea of commitment pretty well by now.


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## SayChiSinLo

Lukecash12 said:


> 27 is not too late at all to learn the cello. In fact, it's a great age to start, considering that you probably understand the idea of commitment pretty well by now.


Definitely, I have a firm idea of what commitment is. Commitment is not the sheer volume of time, but it's the quality of time invested. The attention to details, the periodic self-reflection and the drive to improve. In the sport of tennis, I encourage people to point out AND play to my weakness, how else can I improve upon them unless I face the flaws?

In academia, reading a book, attending lectures for hours does me no good if I'm not able to understand it, and put it into my own words. I'm not afraid to ask seemingly dumb questions. So what if it sounds dumb to other people, if I don't know it then I don't know it.


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## kv466

Not too late at all.


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## LordBlackudder

to old gramps


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## Jaws

SayChiSinLo said:


> Is it too late to start Cello at 27 and want to improve to play good music? If someone come to me and says s/he wants to start tennis at 27, I would definitely say s/he is too late.
> 
> Thanks for reading, and I'm looking forward to your responses and contributions.
> 
> - Angus


It is not too late to start the cello. Age 67 is not too old to start the cello.

What I don't understand is why you say that 27 is to old to start tennis if you are playing it for a hobby? No one can know when they start something music or sport how good they are going to get. So surely if you start tennis as a hobby you are probably not interested in becoming a professional tennis player, but can enjoy the sport as a hobby, and surely this can happen at any age?

Playing a musical instrument is like training in a sport. The practice is the same as training. If you don't do any for a day or a few days you get out of practice.

If you work and play a musical instrument as a hobby, it may take several years to get to the stage where you can play easily with other people.

Although intensive practice is good there is a limit on how little will allow you to progress at a rate that you may be happy with. It is good to start at about 20 minutes a day and build up to about one hour a day. One hour's practice should be enough time to give you a reasonable amount of progress.

However, one hour's practice a day will not allow you to have enough skill to play as a professional cellist. To get a job in a professional orchestra in the UK you would need to be like a professional tennis player, one in a million.


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## SayChiSinLo

^^

You can start tennis/sport at any age, but you have to be realistic about how competitive you want to be, or do you want to be competitive at all? I should have been more clear on my post about the start age for tennis. Let's say you want to compete at a high level, blast people off the court, and be competitive with (ex-)college players. That scenario is highly unlikely for someone that starts at 27. That goes for the most athletic gifted people too. Most athletes are athletes first, and competitor of their sport by nurture. That said, movement, mechanics, power delivery, timing, type of stamina, and etc. are second nature to those individuals. And to learn a new set of movement, mechanics, timing, and etc. as demanded by their new sport is a tall order. Kind of the same reason why a student of a foreign language will never be as fluent as the native tongue, because they started late. A lot of that has to do with the way our brains become wired by exposure and activities. Studies have shown the brain actually adopt by severing unnecessary/unused nerve connections. With its unlikely tendency for regeneration and thus make new connections, you can see why I say adopting a sport or music is difficult for a mature person. Both of which demand complete mastery in order to perform at a high level.

Now, if it's just a hobby and you're not out to blow people off the courts, there's nothing wrong with starting tennis at 27. You'll just be embarrassed by anyone that can play at a level approaching that of college/university tennis/sport.

We can have a lively discussion about the mind and its structure elsewhere. 

I asked about starting cello late because if I am committed to it, I don't want to be "just good enough". I want to be the best cellist I can be. I am ambitious in everything I do. There are people who said to me, it'll be difficult for me to change career from science to business. I started to shut some of those people up by getting into a MBA program. Point is, I don't settle. 

I also like your advice on practice time. Totally agree with you and the opposite can have a very negative effect, even in tennis.


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## Jaws

SayChiSinLo said:


> ^^
> 
> You can start tennis/sport at any age, but you have to be realistic about how competitive you want to be, or do you want to be competitive at all? I should have been more clear on my post about the start age for tennis. Let's say you want to compete at a high level, blast people off the court, and be competitive with (ex-)college players. That scenario is highly unlikely for someone that starts at 27. That goes for the most athletic gifted people too. Most athletes are athletes first, and competitor of their sport by nurture. That said, movement, mechanics, power delivery, timing, type of stamina, and etc. are second nature to those individuals. And to learn a new set of movement, mechanics, timing, and etc. as demanded by their new sport is a tall order. Kind of the same reason why a student of a foreign language will never be as fluent as the native tongue, because they started late. A lot of that has to do with the way our brains become wired by exposure and activities. Studies have shown the brain actually adopt by severing unnecessary/unused nerve connections. With its unlikely tendency for regeneration and thus make new connections, you can see why I say adopting a sport or music is difficult for a mature person. Both of which demand complete mastery in order to perform at a high level.
> 
> Now, if it's just a hobby and you're not out to blow people off the courts, there's nothing wrong with starting tennis at 27. You'll just be embarrassed by anyone that can play at a level approaching that of college/university tennis/sport.
> 
> We can have a lively discussion about the mind and its structure elsewhere.
> 
> I asked about starting cello late because if I am committed to it, I don't want to be "just good enough". I want to be the best cellist I can be. I am ambitious in everything I do. There are people who said to me, it'll be difficult for me to change career from science to business. I started to shut some of those people up by getting into a MBA program. Point is, I don't settle.
> 
> I also like your advice on practice time. Totally agree with you and the opposite can have a very negative effect, even in tennis.


I don't want to put you off taking up an instrument as an adult, but there is no way that anyone can tell how good they are going to get. If you started as a 5 year old there is no guarantee that you would make a good cellist. Doing enough of the right kind of practice is most of what is needed, but really good players have something extra that is nothing to do with practice and isn't something that can be taught.

I don't know what you mean by "just good enough" good enough for what?


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## WavesOfParadox

First of all, I'd recommend not to get your heart set on the cello. It's great you love the sound, but even more important is how it feels. I started off on brass, only to realize I'm a string person. Now I'm happily playing the double bass, but with 3-6 years less experience than others in my orchestra. Go around, and make sure you love to play the instrument.

And you don't always have to play alone. Go look for small community orchestras.

Lastly, you are as good as your practice record.


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## cantata

First off: 27 is not to old to start anything. Tennis Included. And I mean competitive play as well. I've personally seen 60+yr olds that play at a 6.0 ATP level that would destroy even some college level players. I've personally played tennis since early teens and I'd say I'm a 4.0 to 4.5 level player. Enough of tennis though.

The advice given above was very sound: try and play one and make sure you like how it feels when you play it. I really love the sound of a cello as well, but know that compared to some other instruments it, as well as most other strings, can be difficult to learn. 

fast twitch eye-hand coordination matters little as the strings are not moving at 100mph. 

As to the brain note being able to make new neural connections. This has been disproved. Though I'll be the first to agree that the older you are the harder it is to learn new things.

If your goal is to be able to play great sounding music in your home for recreation it is never to late to start. The local piano shop in out town has a seniors beginner piano lessons. People 65+ who have never touched a piano before and within a year can play fine.

On a side note your posts so far have come off as a bit conceited or arrogant. Sounded a bit like you were trying to "toot your own horn", but now I've mixed brass with strings...


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## SayChiSinLo

Sorry if I come off as conceited/arrogant, that is far from my intention. My apologies.

But I do hold myself to a high standard, be it in tennis, academic, career ambitions, and likewise in my pursuit of music. Therefore, if I'm not able to (eventually) play at a high/respectable level simply because I started late, it could be a deal breaker for me.

I like what you guys said about the feel of an instrument, I can certainly relate. But for now, I will trust my ears unless it's unimaginably awkward to play the cello.


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## Jaws

SayChiSinLo said:


> Sorry if I come off as conceited/arrogant, that is far from my intention. My apologies.
> 
> But I do hold myself to a high standard, be it in tennis, academic, career ambitions, and likewise in my pursuit of music. Therefore, if I'm not able to (eventually) play at a high/respectable level simply because I started late, it could be a deal breaker for me.
> 
> I like what you guys said about the feel of an instrument, I can certainly relate. But for now, I will trust my ears unless it's unimaginably awkward to play the cello.


I still have no idea what you mean by high level? Do you mean being able to play in a community orchestra? The point is that high level doesn't actually mean anything on its own.


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## SayChiSinLo

Jaws said:


> I still have no idea what you mean by high level? Do you mean being able to play in a community orchestra? The point is that high level doesn't actually mean anything on its own.


Hmmm, alright. Good enough so I can play classical pieces readily to start off with. Community orchestra would definitely be more advanced than my original definition of "high level," though it's a goal!


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## mmsbls

My daughter teaches cello (she's a music major in college). She has a student in her late 20's who started taking lessons a couple of years ago. Her student works hard, and my daughter feels that she could probably play in the local university orchestra (not a high level university orchestra) in a few years. She believes that with hard work you could play in community orchestras in 10 years or so. Obviously that would require a certain level of musical talent, but your late start would not prevent achieving that goal. 

The difficulty you will have compared to someone starting much younger is finger dexterity. Essentially you won't be able to play difficult pieces at similar speeds, but you would still be able to play high level works.


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## SayChiSinLo

Finger dexterity, got it!

Also, do you think it's possible for you to ask your daughter: What is a reasonable rate for lessons? Is there a brand/model that is particular beginner friendly?

Lastly, now this goes back to my tennis traditions. I was taught on a demanding racquet and have stuck with it since. Cantata, you'll know what I'm talking about, I grew up/developed my strokes on a Head Prestige Classic 600 and really reinforced the idea of proper mechanics/timing. I always recommend newer players to not get lazy and learn the most demanding racquet they can use, and it'll reinforces good technique and open up doors to a variety of equipment in the future.

Does that same notion apply? Or go with what's easiest? If so, what do you guys recommend?


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## mmsbls

In the US a college student teacher should be around $30/hour, a good beginning teacher would be around $50/hour, and a university teacher generally is $70-90/hour (all $US). I don't know how much that varies with location. I suppose it could be higher in a large city. I'm not sure if you live in a location that has plenty of teachers, but you'll have to talk with potential teachers to see who might be the best fit for you now.

My wife (violinist) and daughter both suggested renting an instrument until you have a better sense of the commitment you will have. There's always the chance you just won't like it as much as you think. You _can_ rent reasonably good instruments, but of course you can also get horrible ones. Interestingly the places we know that rent do not charge much different rates for instruments that cost significantly more.

When you are ready to purchase a cello, _don't_ buy an instrument on your own. Your teacher (or someone very knowledgeable) should help you select one. Also the bow is _very_ important. You can get a good cello, but a bow that is inferior will make playing much more difficult.


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## SayChiSinLo

I live in San Francisco, so I can only imagine the rates will be ~1.5x-2.0x the national average...


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## cantata

SayChiSinLo said:


> Lastly, now this goes back to my tennis traditions. I was taught on a demanding racquet and have stuck with it since. Cantata, you'll know what I'm talking about, I grew up/developed my strokes on a Head Prestige Classic 600 and really reinforced the idea of proper mechanics/timing. I always recommend newer players to not get lazy and learn the most demanding racquet they can use, and it'll reinforces good technique and open up doors to a variety of equipment in the future.
> 
> Does that same notion apply? Or go with what's easiest? If so, what do you guys recommend?


Yeah, Those darn 9oz, 120sq in, 7-8pt head heavy sticks are a bad thing! I use a Becker 11 - 98sq in, 12oz, 5pt head light, great mid-plus players stick.

back to music: I don't know a ton about the cello in particular but in general the cheaper instruments will not be easier to play but the more expensive/higher end ones will give more richness in the sounds they can produce.
I do know that there are sizes on cellos, I'm assuming that being a tennis player you are not short so a 4/4 would probably be the right size.
You can look at: http://www.cello.org/heaven/advice.htm
and
http://www.cello.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Tips

looks like lots of information there.


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## mmsbls

SayChiSinLo said:


> I live in San Francisco, so I can only imagine the rates will be ~1.5x-2.0x the national average...


Actually those rates should roughly apply to San Francisco since two of the professors I used to estimate rates are from that area. We know a violin professor who charges $120/hr, but that's considered rather high. You might want to check The San Francisco Conservatory. There's a bulletin board (you'll have to ask where it's located) where students and other teachers advertise for lessons.


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## Jaws

mmsbls said:


> My daughter teaches cello (she's a music major in college). She has a student in her late 20's who started taking lessons a couple of years ago. Her student works hard, and my daughter feels that she could probably play in the local university orchestra (not a high level university orchestra) in a few years. She believes that with hard work you could play in community orchestras in 10 years or so. Obviously that would require a certain level of musical talent, but your late start would not prevent achieving that goal.
> 
> The difficulty you will have compared to someone starting much younger is finger dexterity. Essentially you won't be able to play difficult pieces at similar speeds, but you would still be able to play high level works.


Not true about the finger dexterity, this part of the myth that you will only be good if you start young. I am an adult late starter oboist who started from the beginning at age 42, my finger dexterity is as good as any young music student. You have to compare numbers of hours from when younger or older people start. Some adults don't practice fingerings enough, or in a constructive way.

I am a bit worried that your daughter is not a suitable person to teach adult beginners as she appears to believe the myth about starting young. I was very lucky to have teachers who had an open mind about what could be achieved by an adult beginner. There is nothing to stop an adult late starter studying music at college. What makes it difficult for most people is combining the learning with a full time job, as this limits the amount of time available for practice. An adult starter with plenty of time to practice can achieve the same level of playing as a young person.


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## mmsbls

The question of whether starting lessons early improves dexterity and overall peak ability is interesting. There are many anecdotal stories suggesting late starters are at a disadvantage. For example, we know a violinist who started early as a pianist and then switched to violin in high school. She preferred violin and ultimately practiced much harder and longer on the violin. She felt she clearly had better finger dexterity on the piano than the violin even though she worked much more on the violin. Of course, that is a single case, and anecdotes are hardly scientific. There are studies relevant to this issue, and the ones I've read indicate that there appear to be clear evidence of neuromuscular differences between early and later starters. Two such papers are here and here. If you are aware of evidence to the contrary, please let me know. I'm certainly not an expert and always open to new evidence.

I do think we're talking about different things though. I have no doubt that adults can start lessons and become very good players. The question is not whether one can become a very good player but whether starting earlier would allow one to become an even better player and whether anyone starting late could become a world-class player. The later question is obviously very hard to definitively answer.

I wouldn't worry about my daughter's teaching ability for adults based solely on her views on starting lessons late. The question to ask is, "Why would she teach any differently based on what she believed relevant to that issue?" She teaches technique, repertoire, theory, etc. based on the students ability and experience rather than on how good she believes a student might actually get. If students progress faster, great. If not, she's still happy to work at that pace. Her theoretical views on starting early never really become relevant to teaching. She simply wants all her students to become as good as she can help them become.


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## SayChiSinLo

Here's my personal opinion on the young vs. old learning debate:

Whatever you learn young, your mind is essentially blank, or rather, _more_ blank than someone older. You are less likely to be influenced by your own beliefs/traditions/motor skills/etc. And you're able to absorb the material in its rawest form and incorporate it into your being. What I'm trying to say is, I think the younger you learn something, the more natural it'll becomes.


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## SayChiSinLo

Also, I think there is a (huge) noticeable difference between someone who is very good at their craft, and someone who is natural.


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## Jaws

SayChiSinLo said:


> Also, I think there is a (huge) noticeable difference between someone who is very good at their craft, and someone who is natural.


I am an adult late starter and a natural oboist. I didn't play the oboe as a child. It has been very interesting learning it. I have broken a lot of myths. The finger dexterity one is interesting, and I think due mostly to the way young children are prepared to do a lot of repetition. Adults seem to get bored and want to move on faster because they have a goal in sight. I have no idea how I play the oboe, this leads to a lot of repetition because I need to be happy that I can remember how to do things. As a child I played the horn. I was not a natural horn player. My finger dexterity on the oboe is much better than it was on the horn.


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## Meaghan

When I retire (probably about half a century from now), I plan to learn cello and German. I am of the mindset that, at least in some matters, one can simply decide not to believe in "too old," and be better off for it. (This may be naive whippersnapper thinking, but I don't care!)


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## cellodancing

Nope. It is not too late if it is the thing you want to do! There is a person started at the age 42 and now he is a cellist in a symphony, I started it late as well and sometimes I had doubt until I read his article. check it out:
http://www.cello.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=tips&tip=tip46

Cheers!!


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## sprigofflowers

SayChiSinLo, have you been practicing?


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