# Your favorite 12 tone pieces



## R3PL4Y (Jan 21, 2016)

What are your favorite 12 tone pieces of music? I really like both of Copland's pieces, Connotations and Inscape. I also really like the 12 tone music of Alberto Ginastera, such as the Second Piano Concerto. I also have recently become acquainted with more of Stravinsky's 12 tone works, and I liked these a lot, especially the Variations and the Requiem Canticles.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

When I saw this thread, the number of replies was zero. And that about sums it up for me. Zero. Serialism is anti-music. It applies artificial, mathematical rules to composition. To me, music not grounded in some way in singing is not intelligible to the human mind - at least for most of us. Here we are 100 years after the inventions of atonal, serialistic music - and not one work of that genre has made it into the standard repertoire of orchestras. Some atonal music has, but is seldom played. Serialism was hugely responsible for killing classical music in mid-20th century. I do enjoy some Schoenberg from time to time: the violin and piano concertos. Some Berg, Webern, Xennakis, Leibowitz, even Stockhausen. But I don't love any of it like I do the great 19th masters who understood that melody - singable melody - is foremost in composing.


----------



## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

Five by Charles Wuorinen. It's a concerto for amplified cello and orchestra. There are some very obvious jazz influencesl.






I also really enjoy the music of George Perle. My favorite is probably Sinfonietta II.






BTW, I'm not entirely sure that either of these pieces are strictly twelve tone pieces, but both of these composers are known to have used the technique and have written books about it.


----------



## R3PL4Y (Jan 21, 2016)

I always think it is interesting to see how different composers apply the concept of serialism to their own music. For some composers, they take emphasis off of elements of music like melody in favor of more focus on timbre, rhythm, etc. Others like Rautavaara in his serialist works use the technique to focus on melodies and harmonies, albeit more unusual ones.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

One such work I listen to with pleasure is Luigi Dallapiccola's beautiful 'Variazioni per Orchestra', the composer's homage to J.S. Bach.


----------



## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

Ann Southam (1937-2010) utilized 12-tone technique for her compositions but didn't strictly follow the rules. I think her music is lyrical but without indulging in sentimentalism. She said, "I take a 12-tone row and kind of spin it out one note at a time until the whole thing is there. I've been using the same row for about 20 years. It's just a device, and I'd like to think I'm bringing some tonal sense into it."

Soundings for a New Piano, played by R. Andrew Lee


----------



## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Two 12 tone works I play often and enjoy for their color and feeling are by Jerry Goldsmith. It helps that they are both on one cd.

Music for orchestra..






And Christus Apollo..


----------



## Czech composer (Feb 20, 2016)




----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2017)

I don't typically look up whether or not a piece is 12-tone or serial but not 12-tone, so beyond the known classics of the 12-tone canon, I'm not qualified to give a good answer regarding my own musical favorites.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)




----------



## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

R3PL4Y said:


> What are your favorite 12 tone pieces of music? I really like both of Copland's pieces, Connotations and Inscape. I also really like the 12 tone music of Alberto Ginastera, such as the Second Piano Concerto. I also have recently become acquainted with more of Stravinsky's 12 tone works, and I liked these a lot, especially the Variations and the Requiem Canticles.


I, too, like late-period Stravinsky and Copland's 1962 *Connotations*. My personal favorite works in this idiom may not be formally 12-tone or serial, however, though many of them hail from the same time period (1950s, 1960s, etc.).

Here's a half-dozen faves:

-) Meyer Kupferman's *Jazz Symphony*
-) Roberto Gerhard's oratorio *The Plague* (based upon Albert Camus)
-) Luigi Dallapiccola's *3 Questions with 2 Answers* plus its sister composition - the opera *Ulisse*
-) Friedrich Cerha's *Instants*
-) Goffredo Petrassi's *Concerto for Flute and Orchestra*
-) Benjamin Frankel's *Symphony No.2*


----------



## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

mbhaub said:


> Serialism was hugely responsible for killing classical music in mid-20th century.


I disagree. Serialists wished to sever ties with sentimental Romanticism and write music for the post-WWII/space age era in which they lived. Mathematical techniques and computer science are not non-human but, rather, specific human perspectives.
Most listeners' minds probably do not possess music via a mathematical spectrum, but - for those brains who do - this type of composition is an advanced alternative to plebian 'song & dance' and 'music for pleasure' mindsets.

Most of my favorite music comes from the 1950s through the 1970s ... and melody is not of primary importance to me.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)




----------



## Guest (Nov 5, 2017)

Prodromides said:


> Most of my favorite music comes from the 1950s through the 1970s ... and melody is not of primary importance to me.


In my mind, contemporary composers have succeeded in composing music in which melody, harmony, rhythm, dynamics, timbre, and texture all play equal roles in characterizing the music. In such a way that no piece of earlier music ever really attained. As for posts like mbhaub's... well, these are the horrendously misinformed and malicious sorts of posts that we've talked about for a long time here without any of the moderation forces ever acknowledging them as particularly problematic. Oh well.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Hilary Hahn shot Schoenberg's Violin Concerto into my list of faves.


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

This is a great work: Webern's Variations Op.27


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Berg - Lulu, Lyric Suite, Kammerkonzert
Webern - Symphony, both cantatas, piano variations
(No 12-tone pieces by Schoenberg are among my favorites.)
Nono - Il canto sospeso
Krenek - Lamentations

A difficulty here is that once you move away from Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern, it becomes less clear what counts as 12-tone. For example I believe Rautavaara's 3rd Symphony has 12-tone elements but I'm not sure it belongs here.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

not a 12 tone piece, but should average out to equal temperament based on law of probabilty ( yes I'm a nerd  ) is this indeterminate piece


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Berg Violin Concerto, Three Pieces for Orchestra Op. 6, Chamber Concerto for Piano, Violin and 13 Instruments

Schoenberg Violin Concerto, Wind Quintet Op. 26, Chamber Symphony No. 2 Op. 38

Webern Symphony Op. 21, Five Pieces for Orchestra Op. 10, Six Pieces for Large Orchestra Op. 6, Concerto for 9 Instruments Op. 24

Hanns Eisler Divertimento, Op. 4


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I don’t know for certain if Scoenberg’s Suite for wind quintet, op. 29 is 12 tone, but if so it has my vote. His piano and violin concertos tied for next.


----------



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Quite a few, indeed.

Let's mention here Krenek's _Karl V_:


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Weston said:


> I don't know for certain if Scoenberg's Suite for wind quintet, op. 29 is 12 tone, but if so it has my vote. His piano and violin concertos tied for next.


I need to hunt down Uchida's recording of the piano concerto. The one I have is okay, but I can tell there's more there.


----------



## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

Manxfeeder said:


> *I need to hunt down Uchida's recording of the piano concerto.* The one I have is okay, but I can tell there's more there.


If you're comfortable with YouTube listening, Uchida's performance (with Boulez/The Cleveland Orchestra) can be found there with the score neatly included:






I've made my love for this piece known on this forum before, but I'll say it again: it's one of the greatest piano concertos of the 20th century (and of all time!) and was my 'gateway drug' into Schoenberg's 12-tone method and beyond. Warmly recommended!

_edit: Whoops, just now noticed that EddieRUKiddingVarese already shared the same video on this thread before... Well, no harm in repeating I guess?_


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Manxfeeder said:


> I need to hunt down Uchida's recording of the piano concerto. The one I have is okay, but I can tell there's more there.


It won me over. The other works on the album are not so easy on the ear, but are there when I'm ready for them.


----------



## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

What’s the shortest 12 tone piece? That’s my favorite.


----------



## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

R3PL4Y said:


> What are your favorite 12 tone pieces of music?.....


All of them!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I'm too lazy to go Bach and look, but for me, Schoenberg's Violin and Piano Concertos plus Aaron Copland's rare foray, Connotations for Orchestra, are all fine works in the medium.


----------



## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

My favorite 12-tone composer is Igor Stravinsky (late period). I love all of his 12-tone repertoire. What I like the most about it is that it sounds so unique and always sounds like Stravinsky and no one else. Even though it is 12 tone, you can still tell it's him.

A composer and piece I would also like to mention is living English composer Colin Matthews and his magnificent piece for large orchestra _Broken Symmetry_, written not that long ago in 1992. I first bought the CD (released on DG) twenty years ago and immediately fell in love with it and have listened to it constantly since then. It was only recently a few years ago that I read the program notes online and much to my surprise read that the piece was 12-tone/serial. Then I listened to it again and it seemed so obvious I don't know how I ever missed it. I could hear the row clearly in places. I couldn't believe someone would write a 12 tone piece this recent (1992) and on such a grand scale (a large orchestra commission, over 20 minutes duration). But kudos to him for having the guts to do it.

It is such a great piece. Being a tuba player, I would give anything to play the piece in an orchestra. Here's one of my favorite parts where the low brass goes ballistic at the 0:50 mark





And here is the very atmospheric beginning to wet your appetite and hopefully search for the rest.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Apologies, but I find Schoenberg's Moses und Aron immensely moving as a piece of music. Ditto the less stamina-requiring Survivor from Warsaw. Probably means I understand neither.

O Wort, du Wort, das mir fehlt!


----------



## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

The only one for me.


----------



## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

My favorites are Webern's piano variations, Babbitt's Partitions and Post-Partitions, Barraqué's sonata & the Broch pieces, Schoenberg's piano concerto... in no particular order.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Dallapiccola, Due Pezzi
Stravinsky, Mouvements for Piano & Orchestra
Webern: Songs
Babbitt: Philomel, Piano Works
Arthur Berger: String Quartet
Elliott Carter: Variations for Orchestra (I consider Carter a serialist)
Schoenberg: Serenade, Wind Quintet, Variations for Orchestra
Berg: Wozzeck
Boulez: Le Marteau, Pli selon Pli
Crumb: Variazioni

Much more...


----------



## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Prodromides said:


> I disagree. Serialists wished to sever ties with sentimental Romanticism and write music for the post-WWII/space age era in which they lived. Mathematical techniques and computer science are not non-human but, rather, specific human perspectives.
> Most listeners' minds probably do not possess music via a mathematical spectrum, but - for those brains who do - this type of composition is an advanced alternative to plebian 'song & dance' and 'music for pleasure' mindsets.
> 
> Most of my favorite music comes from the 1950s through the 1970s ... and melody is not of primary importance to me.


My sentiments, almost exactly. Although, I do like post 70's music, up through the contemporary period as much as from the 50's.

There is a certain feeling of catharsis that comes from listening to music that may not be 'beautiful', at least not in an obvious manner.

Some of my favorites:

Arnold Schoenberg - Piano Concerto, Op. 42

I agree with all of these: Berg Violin Concerto, Three Pieces for Orchestra Op. 6, Chamber Concerto for Piano, Violin and 13 Instruments

Elliott Carter - Variations for Orchestra

Krenek - Static and Ecstatic

Webern - Five Pieces for Orchestra Op. 10

This list is just a start. There are many more.



Improbus said:


> What's the shortest 12 tone piece? That's my favorite.


And people wonder why those of us on TC, that are fans of mostly 20th century and contemporary classical music, have problems with so many threads here... 

I can understand why there isn't universal love for much 20th century classical, but there is a certain smugness among those that aren't fans. And yes, I admit that it could be almost entirely my perception, but I don't seem to the be the only one.

Here we have a thread asking a basic question for fans of mid to late 20th century classical music, and someone that is not a fan feels compelled to chime in with the above condescending comment. Why the need to comment at all? Or if the poster feels they want to comment, why not, "I am not a fan of 12 tone music", and leave it at that?


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I don't know if Xenakis's orchestral works are 12 tone but I've always found them very accessible. Over time I've realized that my problem with most serial music isn't that it sounds unnatural, weird, or stressful - those are all things that I really like about it - it's just that much of it is very dense and difficult, and I struggled with Bach and Beethoven's late quartets for the same reasons at first.

It took several years of regular listening to finally discern interesting melodies in the opening 30 seconds of Schoenberg's wind quintet, just because the counterpoint is so thick. In contrast, I find Jonchaies as accessible as any piece that was written before it. The melody is obvious and easily followed through all of its transformations, to the point that it's almost deceptively simple. Some of Webern has that same effect for me. I also like a lot of the orchestral stuff, or really anything that's orchestrated for a variety of timbres just because it's easier to follow the voices. I think that's a big reason Schoenberg's piano concerto is relatively well liked.

For me the spectrum is represented by Boulez's derives. The first one I had no trouble liking when I was still knee deep in romanticism. The second one I understand how someone could like for a couple of minutes, but not for its entirety - to go on the way that it does for that length of time doesn't seem like a violation of tonality, but of the basic rules of drama. Sort of how I like Stockhausen's Kontakte because it has a loose fast - slow - fast structure to make it palatable, but loathe his Cosmic Pulses for spamming similar musical ideas with no significant variation for 25+ minutes, as if he just wasn't concerned with our capacity for patience. My issues with a lot of modern and contemporary classical tend to be more in that vein rather than a dislike for the inherent sound of serial music.


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Neither Xenakis nor Carter wrote 12-tone music, for the record....


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I gave another listen to Schoenberg's piano concerto. It sounds like something I might appreciate eventually. I would've never said that a few years ago. I guess long term exposure to less traditionally tonal music has changed my perception. I still prefer music that's not as deliberate in avoiding tonality. I like it when there's a harmonic twilight zone of sorts, where traces of tonality might still be felt, such as late Scriabin and Roslavets who based their music on synthetic chords, or whatever (I can't really speak about this stuff in technical terms, but through listening and reading a little I have a vague intuitive grasp of these concepts ).


----------

