# Great partnerships in classical music...



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

_By 'great' I mean things like simply your favourite, or particularly fruitful or prolific, stuff like that (to get the semantic games out of the way, thank you)._

*Anwyay, give us the partnerships that you think gave us great music! Can be between a composer and a soloist, a lyricist, poet or impresario, anything like that.*

Three of mine, which I might come back to elaborate on later:

- *Brahms and the violinist Joseph Joachim *- Lifelong friends and colleagues, this partnership produced things like Brahms' _Violin Concerto_, his_ Double Concerto _and he consulted the Hungarian on string writing and technique when composing a number of his chamber works, masterpieces all.

- *George Gershwin and his brother, lyricist Ira *- making a huge chunk of what is called the 'Great American Songbook.'

- *Stravinsky and the ballet impresario Sergei Diaghilev of the Ballets Russes - *producing three ballets central to the 20th century repertoire. I don't even have to name them, you all know them!


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Richard Wagner and King Ludwig II, which resulted in massive development in the form of "modernising" German Romantic music well ahead of archconservative Johannes Brahms and his supporters.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Rapide said:


> Richard Wagner and King Ludwig II, which resulted in massive development in the form of "modernising" German Romantic music well ahead of archconservative Johannes Brahms and his supporters.


Yep!

And Mozart with da Ponte

And Puccini with Luigi Illica and Giuseppe Giacosa


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Benjamin Britten and Peter Pears.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> Benjamin Britten and Peter Pears.


They were gay lovers.


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

No one has mentioned this yet I don't think, so what about John Eliot Gardiner and all Baroque and Classical music.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Rapide said:


> They were gay lovers.


Indeed......


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Rapide said:


> They were gay lovers.


Your point being?


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> Your point being?


Love was involved. That was probably a good thing as far as the music was concerned. Relatively unusual in the "great partnership" theme of the thread. Many would have been professional and or patronage.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

A few others that come to mind:

Dutoit and Argerich
Handel and Senesino
Mozart and Da Ponte
Mozart and Leutgeb
Mozart and Stadler
Rostropovich and Vishnevskaya
Sibelius and Kajanus
Sutherland and Bonynge
John Tavener and Patricia Rosario
Verdi and Piave


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

R. Strauss and Hofmannsthal


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Sid James said:


> *Stravinsky and the ballet impresario Sergei Diaghilev of the Ballets Russes - *producing three ballets central to the 20th century repertoire. I don't even have to name them, you all know them!


Yes: Pulcinella, Agon and Apollo.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Shostakovich and Stalin


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## Morgante (Jul 26, 2012)

Bach and his sons.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Florestan and Eusebius


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I might get some tomatoes thrown for this, but John Cage, Merce Cunningham, and David Tudor were a great combination. Especially David Tudor for the way he took the strange music handed to him, sometimes only graphs, and realizing them into actual pieces.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Kondrashin and Shostakovich


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Tchaikovsky and Nadezhda von Meck. Although this wasn't an artistic collaboration it was probably only her financial backing and their correspondence that prevented him becoming both unhinged and poverty-stricken during the fallout of his disastrous marriage, thus enabling him to continue composing.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Maxim Vengerov and Daniel Barenboim


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

These dudes:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Since I've been getting into musicals again lately, there have been some great partnerships in those:
- Rodgers and Hammerstein - producing musicals like _Oklahoma!, The King and I, The Sound of Music _and others.
- Andrew Lloyd Webber & Tim Rice -_Joseph and the amazing technicolour dreamcoat, Jesus Christ Superstar_ and _Evita_

Re patrons, I see them as not really partners but just people who fund composers. I think the biggest partnership Wagner had was with himself, seriously (eg. he wrote his own librettos). But of course his relationship with Ludwig - as was Tchaikovsky's to von Meck - where very important aspects of their lives as a whole. Without them, it would have been a very different story indeed.

Similar with musicians who focus on a dead composer's music. I see it as a different issue, but people are free to put on this thread what they think is relevant.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

*Dietrich Fischer Dieskau* and *Gerald Moore*!






*Franz Schubert *and *Michael Vogl*!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Some others I like:

*Italian composer Berio and his wife Cathy Berberian* (her amazing vocal range inspired him to no end)

*Janacek and Rudolf Firkusny *- the young pianist studied under the ageing composer, and Firkusny became one of the finest interpreters of his piano music. Not strictly a 'partnership' - Janacek did not write his works for Firkusny - but I think given this teacher-student connection, there's a similar vibe in that.

*Kurt Weill and Bertolt Brecht* - they collaborated on a number of works, eg. the _Berliner Requiem_ and the _Threepenny Opera_. The rise of the Nazis and the war split them up, Weill went to the USA and Brecht sat out the war in Sweden. Their biting social satire and political commentary was influential in many ways, not only in classical music but in the wider popular culture.

*Edith Piaf and Margeurite Monnot,* writing some of the greatest French chansons of the early to mid 20th century. Its hard to disentangle what they did sometimes, they worked as a really tight unit.


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## Vavaseur (Oct 5, 2012)

Jacqueline du Pre and Daniel Barenboim

Sviatoslav Richter, David Oistrakh, and Mstislav Rostropovich


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Rogers and Hart, Lerner and Lowe, Gilbert and Sulivan. Wagner and Matilda Wessendonk, Grieg and Ibsen,


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Xaltotun said:


> Kondrashin and Shostakovich


In later years, yes, but never as intensely as Mravinsky and Shostakovich until Mravinsky refused to conduct the potentially controversial premiere of Shostakovich's 13th Symphony in 1962 (which is where Kondrashin comes in). The relationship between Mravinsky and Shostakovich was forever spoiled after that.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Don't know any off the top of my head so I'll just say ComposerOfAvantGarde and MaestroViolinist.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Monteverdi and Zappa.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Monteverdi and Zappa.


Which Zappa?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Lyapunov and Balakirev.


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## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

Morecambe & Wise


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Which Zappa?


The contemporary one. 

I should mention George Frideric Handel and his wealthy supporter Charles Jennens. Jennens, though arrogant and irascible, was a man of taste, supplied Handel with the libretti to the English oratorios: _Saul, L'Allegro il Penseroso ed il Moderato, The Messiah, Belshazzar_, and probably _Israel in Egypt_. All masterpieces.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Joan Sutherland and Richard Bonynge although it is hard to say who benefitted most.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Not exactly classical I know, but how about Ellington and Strayhorn?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Some fruitful composer-film director partnerships:

Nino Rota and Fellini

Bernard Herrmann and Hitchcock

John Williams and Spielberg (& also George Lucas)


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Some fruitful composer-film director partnerships:
> 
> Nino Rota and Fellini
> 
> ...


That were partnerships between movie directors and film music, not classical music.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Rapide said:


> That were partnerships between movie directors and film music, not classical music.


All those three composers where classically trained, and also wrote 'purely' classical music (eg. for the concert hall). Their film scores have also entered the concert hall via suites fashioned from them (eg. Herrmann's 'Psycho' suite has been played by the Australian Chamber Orchestra, and in that HD series, no less than the Berlin Philharmonic played Rota's 'La Strada' suite). All of those directors hired these composers again and again, actually Spielberg did say that his work with John Williams was a partnership. I read it in the notes of a cd I've got.

I don't think film music is much different from incidental music to a play (from before when movies where invented). & maybe also other stage mediums like ballet and opera. This thread is not about disputing this or other things. In one of my earlier posts, I mentioned that I did not think that musicians focussing on dead composers was a partnership. But I said people can post about that here if they want.

This thread has gone pretty well overall. Its been positive. I would like you to note rapide, that it is due to negativity such as yours in the past, as well as others like some guy and stlukes, that I have 'retreated' mainly to my own threads and 'safe' places like the 'current listening' thread. If you want to dispute things in depth go make your own thread, you and those others. Guess who won't be visiting it.

Goodbye and good luck.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Rapide said:


> That were partnerships between movie directors and film music, not classical music.


The definition of classical music is quite shaky at best, and I honestly don't believe you have much authority to deny a whole form of music from being classified as such. Most film composers are classically trained, the scores are written out and usually read by classically trained musicians. How is that different from any other classical music written in modern times? How is it much different from ballet or opera composing, or composing incidental music for a play? Silly.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

You missed my point above. I am well aware many film composers are classically trained. (I have worked with some of them and they are fine composers). The point is we were not (up to now) discussing between film directors and composing film music. All examples up to now have been between composers, libretti, and other composers and supporters who together produced classical music. The relation above is between the film composer to help produce films/movies. That deserves a new thread.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Rapide said:


> You missed my point above. I am well aware many film composers are classically trained. (I have worked with some of them and they are fine composers). The point is we were not (up to now) discussing between film directors and composing film music. All examples up to now have been between composers, libretti, and other composers and supporters who together produced classical music. The relation above is between the film composer to help produce films/movies. That deserves a new thread.


Yeah, cause the title of this thread is "Great Partnerships between Classical Composers and Librettists or Benefactors and NOTHING ELSE Lest you Incur the Wrath of Rapide"


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

BurningDesire said:


> Yeah, cause the title of this thread is "Great Partnerships between Classical Composers and Librettists or Benefactors and NOTHING ELSE Lest you Incur the Wrath of Rapide"


Don't worry, it aint worth it. I just read about Spielberg and John Williams. All of Spielberg's films, except one, have been scored by Williams. Now if that ain't a partnership, what is? There are plenty of film composers in Hollywood, so why did Spielberg chose this one for all those films across the decades? Its similar to how some opera composers worked with the same librettists on many projects. Or composers of musicals with the same lyricist (both these types of partnerships have been mentioned on this thread).

Its just control, BurningDesire, that's all it is. Every thread I make, Rapide comes and does this. I think its basically cos I hate Wagner, its sour grapes over that. Same with the other two members I mentioned, they've done this time and time again on the threads I make. & I just contributed to a thread and lo and behold, guess who is on there questioning the premise of the thread. Its about contemporary music (no prizes for guessing which member!). I'm sick of these gambits, its rather tiring. So sad how obviously intelligent and informed people get their kicks out of this.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Ach! You have outed us! The great Evil Wagnerian Brotherhood. Under the rule of the dark green overlord, couchie, we strive to control all the musical internet forums in the known world. :devil: We are far more dangerous... and insidious... than the Knights Templar and the Illuminati... or was that the Glitterati?


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Ach! You have outed us! The great Evil Wagnerian Brotherhood. Under the rule of the dark green overlord, couchie, we strive to control all the musical internet forums in the known world. :devil: We are far more dangerous... and insidious... than the Knights Templar and the Illuminati... or was that the Glitterati?


Welcome back, old boy! My oh my - the ban has been lifted. Your return "brings balance to the Force", the young Padawans/young-lings need guidance. Or is it the Dark Side of the Force is now back in balance?


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## thebicyclethief (May 28, 2013)

I have to say that Jennens' libretto for Saul is absolutely stunning. Two dramatic geniuses working "In sweetest harmony ...
Nor death their union could divide."


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Flagstad and Melchior

Barenboim and W. Meier

Clara & Robert Schumann

Xenakis and the voices in his head


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Couchie and Wagner


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Rameau and Voltaire. 

Quinault and Lully.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Morton Feldman and Samuel Beckett.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

*Jacqueline du Pré and Daniel Barenboim*






Recently rediscovered concert video...






:angel:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Joan Sutherland and her husband Richard Bonynge.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Couldn't resist

Joshua Bell and Steven Isserlis. Been friends for years and recorded a lovely Brahms Double Concerto together


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Here's that pesky film score issue again: Prokofiev and Eisenstein. And how about Borodin and Rimsky-Korsakov together learning how the several musical instruments worked and sounded? And we have Rimsky coming in to "fix" Mussorgsky's _Boris_ and finish Borodin's _Prince Igor_. Brahms as Dvořák's encouraging and friendly supporter/mentor. Diaghilev and Stravinsky have been mentioned but there is also Diaghilev and Prokofiev (3 ballets plus _Scythian Suite_, conceived as a ballet). Haydn and Salomon for the London Symphonies.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Britten and any of his librettists - especially Myfanwy Piper. I don't think Britten ever wrote a duff opera and the quality of the libretti was often matched by music which showcased Britten at his brilliantly imaginative best.


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## Rmathuln (Mar 21, 2018)

Herbert von Karajan and Walter Legge
Walter Legge and Elizabeth Schwarzkopf (I know, love was involved too)


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Tennstedt and the LPO ...
The younger Barenboim with almost anyone he played with (he seemed to really get something special from playing with quite a number of conductors and also in chamber partnerships ...)


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

The husband and wife team of soprano Faustina Bordoni and composer Johann Adolf Hasse.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Bartok and Szigeti


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Gilbert and Sullivan


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

MarkW said:


> Bartok and Szigeti


I know of one - stunning - recording (it has the Kreutzer sonata among other pieces). Were there others?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> I know of one - stunning - recording (it has the Kreutzer sonata among other pieces). Were there others?


I am unaware . . . but isn't that enough?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

MarkW said:


> I am unaware . . . but isn't that enough?


It's never enough. But in this case there is a CD of Fazil Say and the young Patricia Kopatchinskaja repeating more or less the same material with some of the same vibe ...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

two particular partnerships

Frederick Delius and Eric Fenby (who helped Delius to keep composing when he was paralised, something even more remarkable because Delius was known as a staunch atheist and Fenby was a christian)









Giacinto Scelsi and Vieri Tosatti
Although it seems that Tosatti didn't have any admiration for Scelsi and his music but he just worked for him, he still has his merits for the beautiful orchestration of Scelsi's compositions.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Strange Magic has beaten me to it. Prokofiev and Eisenstein is one of the most noted partnerships in the history of music. I'll add:

Tchaikovsky and Marius Petipa
Glazunov and Mitrofan Belyayev
Sir Arnold Bax and Sir Henry Wood
Ralph Vaughan Williams and Sir Adrian Boult
Aaron Copland and Leonard Bernstein
Weinberg and Vladimir Fedoseyev
Boris Tchaikovsky and Vladimir Fedoseyev
Rodion Shchedrin (composer) and Maya Plisetskaya (his wife and ballerina)
Rostropovich and Vishnevskaya
Rozhdestvensky and Viktoria Postnikova
Cyril Scott and Percy Grainger (perhaps)
Edvard Grieg and Henrik Ibsen
Jacques Offenbach and Hortense Schneider
Franz Lehar and Richard Tauber
Eduard Tubin and Neemi Jarvi
Isaac Stern and Emanuel Ax (with Yo Yo Ma, Perlman)
Isaac Stern and Sol Hurok


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Isabelle Faust, Jean-Guihen Queyras & Alexander Melnikov - a great chamber music partnership.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

norman bates said:


> two particular partnerships
> 
> Frederick Delius and Eric Fenby (who helped Delius to keep composing when he was paralised, something even more remarkable because Delius was known as a staunch atheist and Fenby was a christian)
> 
> ...


That reminds me....

Many years ago (mid-1970s?) BBC Radio 3 used to broadcast a CM programme on Saturday mornings that included an element of (very innovative for its day...) phone-in. 
On one such broadcast, the presenter played a piece by Delius and made one or two rather pointed comments about its quality or lack of.
"And we have a caller on the line", he went on. "Your name is?". 
"My name" said the caller "Is Eric Fenby". 
There was an audible intake of breath and a glorious moment of silence.
Fenby went on "And I wish to take issue with what you just said...". Which he did. 
It was pure wireless magic.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Beaux Arts trio, whatever and whoever played in it, top of the bill.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Orfeo said:


> [*]Cyril Scott and Percy Grainger (perhaps)


I think there's a case for that. They knew eachother since their formative years and kept in touch for the rest of their lives. An interesting fact is that where it not for Grainger, a number of key works by Scott would have been lost. Grainger housed manuscripts of Scott's music at his museum/archive in Melbourne, these have turned out to be the only copies remaining. Scott's first symphony is the most substantial of these scores.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Sid James said:


> I think there's a case for that. They knew each other since their formative years and kept in touch for the rest of their lives. An interesting fact is that where it not for Grainger, a number of key works by Scott would have been lost. Grainger housed manuscripts of Scott's music at his museum/archive in Melbourne, these have turned out to be the only copies remaining. Scott's first symphony is the most substantial of these scores.


That's interesting. I did not realize that (so such an extent anyway).
Thank you Sid.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

How about Glazunov and Borodin? (or has that already been mentioned?)

And maybe a trio: Robert Schumann, Clara Schumann and Brahms.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

JAS said:


> How about Glazunov and Borodin? (or has that already been mentioned?)
> 
> And maybe a trio: Robert Schumann, Clara Schumann and Brahms.


The relationship between Glazunov and Borodin (not yet mentioned by the way), was fruitful, for Borodin spoke highly of the fledgling composer's emerging talent and spread the word, sort to speak. And needless to say, Glazunov's efforts in editing a number of Borodin's works proved to be important, and still are.

That said, I would argue that Glazunov's relationship with Rimsky-Korsakov was even more fruitful and crucial (as much as his relationship with Tchaikovsky incidentally). They were friends and colleagues (there was something of the paternal relationship between the two, since Glazunov looked up to the older master), and gave advices to each other when needed.

Robert Schumann, Clara Schumann and Brahms is worth a mention (more like Robert and Clara then Clara and Brahms, if not at the same level).


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Tom and Jerry.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Continuing with Russians, Rachmaninoff said he regarded Tchaikovsky as his idol/ideal, and was gratified by T's expressed appreciation for the young R's music, especially _Aleko_, as I recall. R seems often discussed as the spiritual heir of T.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

bach and Gould!!!!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Strange Magic said:


> Continuing with Russians, Rachmaninoff said he regarded Tchaikovsky as his idol/ideal, and was gratified by T's expressed appreciation for the young R's music, especially _Aleko_, as I recall. R seems often discussed as the spiritual heir of T.


Tchaikovsky followed Rachmaninov's early career. It was largely with his backing that Rachmaninov was able to enter the competitive composer's class in Moscow under Taneyev. Rachmaninov dedicated his first suite for two pianos to Tchaikovsky, and was devastated by his death. He wrote the Trio Elegiaque in D minor in his memory. Rachmaninov was in tears as he composed it, and didn't play or want to hear it for many years. I think its fair to say that Rachmaninov saw Tchaikovsky as his mentor.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Strange Magic said:


> ...Brahms as Dvořák's encouraging and friendly supporter/mentor. ... Haydn and Salomon for the London Symphonies.


Connections like that can be gold for a composer. Once Brahms introduced Dvorak to his publisher Simrock, new doors opened up. I like how in the letter Brahms mentioned Dvorak not only had immense talent but also had a family to feed. Very practical, and Simrock couldn't regret putting Dvorak onto their books, his Slavonic Dances became a best seller. In terms of Haydn and Salomon, the latter was a musician and impresario who did smooth Haydn's way in London. The first visit was so successful that it called for a second one less than two years later. Salomon also did reduced piano trio versions of the London symphonies, getting them out to a wider public.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Sid James said:


> _By 'great' I mean things like simply your favourite, or particularly fruitful or prolific, stuff like that (to get the semantic games out of the way, thank you)._
> 
> *Anwyay, give us the partnerships that you think gave us great music! Can be between a composer and a soloist, a lyricist, poet or impresario, anything like that.*
> 
> ...


I would say Stravinsky and Balanchine. The two were friends. The Balanchine Trust lists 13 collaborations including three commissions, many of them ballet masterpieces (especially taking into account both music and dance). I saw a great one on Friday - Stravinsky Violin Concerto. The ballet was created for City Ballet's Stravinsky Festival - 30 Stravinsky based ballets in one week. I only wish I'd been there.

https://www.nytimes.com/1972/06/21/archives/stravinsfy-fete-a-juggling-act-too.html


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Frederick Ashton and Margot Fonteyn ... _Marguerite and Armand, Symphonic Variations, Cinderella, Ondine, Daphnis and Chloë, Sylvia_ ...

And of course, Fonteyn and Nureyev


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