# Harp v Piano



## Taggart

This got going on another topic entirely, but I thought it needed its own space.

I love Carolan and would like to find some piano transcriptions. Head_Case commented http://www.talkclassical.com/23090-your-favorite-piece-music-2.html#post420034 
that piano misses the "nuanced portamento" of the harp.

I was thinking about J J Sheridan's playing e.g.




 which I think captures some of it.

Any thoughts on either the transcriptions or the suitability of the instruments?


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## Ingélou

I think this piece is beautifully played. J. J. Sheridan, originally from Ireland, now lives in America and has made Carolan a centre of his professional career.


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## Ukko

Some pianists, e.g. Horowitz, could effectively emulate that 'nuanced portamento'. Not all of those deceased geezers were hammerers of the klavier.


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## Taggart

After all, a harp is merely a piano without any clothes.

(One of my favourite quotes  )


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## Novelette

Beethoven's 6 Variations on a Swiss Song in F, WoO 64 was indicated for either the piano or the harp.

Having heard it performed on the harp first, I always think that the harp is the proper instrument for it. I enjoy the harp immensely, largely because of its particular portamento abilities, in fact. Still, I will have to listen more carefully to Horowitz's recordings, I hadn't noticed his ability to produce that effect on the piano.


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## DrKilroy

Taggart said:


> After all, a harp is merely a piano without any clothes.
> 
> (One of my favourite quotes  )


Reminds me of a certain film with Marx Bros. 

On the IMSLP site for Bach's Italian Concerto there is a recording of its second movement played on harp. It sound very well, I think.

Best regards, Dr


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## Head_case

Hi there,

I don't think I've let on how much I really can't stand the piano :lol:

Just to throw something else in the mix - are you familiar with the chinese piano (called a guzheng, or a horizontal zither). It's not quite as small as the lap harp which you referenced in the other thread and blends the qualities of the harp and the piano. You can hear both tendencies strongly in its tonal calibre:






Whatever portamento Horowitz manages to impart into his Scriabin works will require a magnifying glass when you listen to the effortlessness in this piece on the chinese piano. The textures - both variety and nuanced blending - of the tremelos and arpeggiated dreamlike harmony scales are just incredible in this piece. Like Carolan's work, it is based on more folk-traditional music, rather than the classical tradition per se.

Here's another more aggressively stamped piece:






I love this instrument!

The Finnish Kantele is another lap harp derivation:






Maybe you'll agree, that the kantele sounds closer to a cross between a harp and a harpsichord, than say, piano?


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## Head_case

Wouldn't fit in the above...

and deleted the rest of the post


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## Head_case

...well the last bit which horrible editing incompetencies on my part ended up deleting was in answer to the transcription task.

You can hear all the various harp derivations have marked portamento and tremelo, with the oriental chinese harp having the greatest degree of appogiatura requiring left hand bending of the strings. As you move towards the predecessor of the piano, the harpsichord, these finer plucking details are sacrificed for the keyboard strengths. The drumming effect on the chinese harp is also peculiar to this kind of harp on a half-tube zither, which can then 'echo' like a drum. Now for transcription:

The Pachebel piece which you should be familiar with:






If you listen to it on lap harp vs piano:






Which do you prefer?

I know which I prefer ....the piano version sounds stilted with deadened gaps, rather than meditative silence; it just doesn't have the sparkle and crystalline clarity which the lap harp or any of the plucked string harps would offer...


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## hreichgott

The harp is a beautiful instrument. I like listening to both harp and piano. I have always enjoyed the massive variation in tone quality/attack possible on the piano -- it can be lush, delicate, muscular, brassy, robotic, watery, percussive ... all on the same instrument. Piano will always be hands down my most favorite thing to play.


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## Mahlerian

Head_case said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I don't think I've let on how much I really can't stand the piano :lol:
> 
> Just to throw something else in the mix - are you familiar with the chinese piano (called a guzheng, or a horizontal zither). It's not quite as small as the lap harp which you referenced in the other thread and blends the qualities of the harp and the piano. You can hear both tendencies strongly in its tonal calibre:


I've played the instrument's Japanese cousin, the koto (very briefly, only at "chopsticks" level, really). The notation looks like this:


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## aleazk

Why not both?:


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## Ingélou

What a lovely set of clips, H'case! Harp has the loveliest tone per se, but I prefer the piano for Pachelbel's Canon - it has more depth & moves me more. But yeah - why do we have to choose? Or limit the choice to these two?
Mr Spock has supplied me with an equation that explains the science:

Harp vs Piano = Harp / Chord > ***<3 --- and the answer's a Harpsichord!


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## hreichgott

Harpists, what do you think about the difficulty of bringing out a long "singing" line on the harp? (or I could ask the same thing about guitar?) I have only heard a few harpists (or classical guitarists) able to make a really sustained, connected cantabile sound, especially over a faster-moving accompaniment pattern. Whereas that's a basic part of Suzuki Piano books 1 and 2. Is it true that the longer sustain on a piano makes it easier?


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## Taggart

Another "nude piano" but again an alternative to the harp:






Marvellous to see all the variations on a theme - bit like hreichgott I feel that although they all have their own charm, the piano is Queen.

Thanks for all the interesting posts

The one thing I am still curious about is piano transcriptions of Carolan :angel: - any thoughts?


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## Head_case

Mahlerian said:


> I've played the instrument's Japanese cousin, the koto (very briefly, only at "chopsticks" level, really). The notation looks like this:
> 
> View attachment 13329


Wow. I'm amazined Mahlerian! 

How on earth do you get your head around the foreign notation for starters, before even approaching the technique?

I took 8 lessons for the guzheng harp however I had an English speaking tutor which made it less complicated. The notation for the harp is easier to follow than the old koto system.

Is that tuned to a minor pentatonic system?


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## Head_case

Ingenue said:


> What a lovely set of clips, H'case! Harp has the loveliest tone per se, but I prefer the piano for Pachelbel's Canon - it has more depth & moves me more. But yeah - why do we have to choose? Or limit the choice to these two?
> Mr Spock has supplied me with an equation that explains the science:
> 
> Harp vs Piano = Harp / Chord > ***<3 --- and the answer's a Harpsichord!


Haha....yes I love the harpsichord too. Some of my favourite concertos are written for harpischord (Szymanski's Partita works; Gorecki's Harpsichord Concerto; Martinu's Harpsichord Concerto & DeFalla). I love the prancing agility of the harpsichord.

The celtic lever harp's plucking method makes it less likely a candidate for music requiring sustenuto and a greater advocate of the meditative music's use of silence. I suppose the only reason to choose either harp or piano is, if you're a player, and you can't decide which. Having a freestanding pedal harp in a living room is really sexy; having a black hole light-sucking piano coffin in the corner is not :lol:

Love the Takemitsu work


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## Mahlerian

Head_case said:


> Wow. I'm amazined Mahlerian!
> 
> How on earth do you get your head around the foreign notation for starters, before even approaching the technique?
> 
> I took 8 lessons for the guzheng harp however I had an English speaking tutor which made it less complicated. The notation for the harp is easier to follow than the old koto system.
> 
> Is that tuned to a minor pentatonic system?


The notation tells you what string to play at a given time. The Chinese characters are mostly numbers. Where there are two characters in a single box (it's read, like Japanese, from upper right down in columns), you play two strings. There are markings telling you to press down with your left hand on the string to bend the pitch up (approximately a quarter tone). Those are the オ (o) markings, symbolizing 押す (osu, to press/push).

The pentatonic Hirajoushi tuning (which is specified on the right hand side of the tablature, under the name of the piece and the name of the composer, was (more or less, given that equal temperament was not preferred) as follows:
D-G-A-Bf-D-Ef-G-A-Bf-D-Ef-G

To our ears, this might seem like a subset of G minor, but it's supposed to be based on D, so more like D phrygian.


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## Head_case

Taggart said:


> Another "nude piano" but again an alternative to the harp:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marvellous to see all the variations on a theme - bit like hreichgott I feel that although they all have their own charm, the piano is Queen.


That was truly horrible! :lol:

(j/k) It was alright actually. The second part of the clip reminded me of T Bone Burnett's bin lid banging antics in the album 'The Criminal under my own hat'.



> Thanks for all the interesting posts
> 
> The one thing I am still curious about is piano transcriptions of Carolan :angel: - any thoughts?


Hmm. Maybe I've missed the point (again..!)

Why can you not just play the harp music as Carolan wrote it? 
This is what I do, although I can't say that anything I'm spewing out has any merit in it.

For example - his Collection of Airs (copyright free) - there are virtually no indications of any stylistics other than time signature and long notes:

http://imslp.org/wiki/A_Collection_of_Ancient_Irish_Airs_(Mulholland,_John)

As a Roman Catholic, his sacred works were performed publically, although it is his harp music which is he reknown for today - Henry VIII probably destroyed the former and although a recluse in later life, unlike much Irish folk music, his works are preserved in text, not solely by the aural tradition which Irish traditional music is known for i.e. the sheet music is just a skeleton which is fleshed out through aural learning given through the tradition from generation to generation.

This kind of appogiatura is unknown to contemporary piano players of Carolan's music, if that's what you're referring to, by 'transcription'? See what you make of the sheet music - there isn't anything there that is difficult to play. Piano players might be unfortunate and end up with worse than a skeleton - just a carcass of a score like this elementary reduction:










The IMPLS site is the best for copyright free sheet music. Although I've been waiting ages for Katchaturian's flute concerto to turn up and he's long since dead beyond copyright grips :lol:

http://www.free-scores.com/Download-PDF-Sheet-Music-Turlough-O-Carolan.htm

also offer the original harp scores but if you go back to the IMPLS root index for Carolan, you'll find that it's a fabulous resource.

...So I'm wondering what you mean by 'piano transcriptions'......since the harp if anything, is diatonically tuned to the key of C, D, Bb, Eb. The piano is a great chromatic instrument - you don't have to retune up to 40 harp strings just to play a piece :lol:
However what the piano does lack ....is that microtone, and the more delicate inflections of plucking from striking the strings with more refined finesse than with a hammer: with the human fingers.


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## Head_case

Mahlerian said:


> The notation tells you what string to play at a given time. The Chinese characters are mostly numbers. Where there are two characters in a single box (it's read, like Japanese, from upper right down in columns), you play two strings. There are markings telling you to press down with your left hand on the string to bend the pitch up (approximately a quarter tone). Those are the オ (o) markings, symbolizing 押す (osu, to press/push).
> 
> The pentatonic Hirajoushi tuning (which is specified on the right hand side of the tablature, under the name of the piece and the name of the composer, was (more or less, given that equal temperament was not preferred) as follows:
> D-G-A-Bf-D-Ef-G-A-Bf-D-Ef-G
> 
> To our ears, this might seem like a subset of G minor, but it's supposed to be based on D, so more like D phrygian.


Thanks - that's really demystified Japanese music for me :cheers:

Just running that scale on a flute, and limiting myself to those notes for improvisation, it really makes sense and gives a strongly ethnic Japanese flavour. How long did it take you to feel comfortable with the Japanese notation?

My flute is Werkmeister III temperament tuning. You can tell how much I respect piano players lol! I could be the most anti-social member of a chamber ensemble making everyone else sound flat and out of tune


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## Mahlerian

Head_case said:


> Thanks - that's really demystified Japanese music for me :cheers:


For me as well! Even with just the little bit of experience I had, Takemitsu, all of Takemitsu, suddenly made perfect sense.



> Just running that scale on a flute, and limiting myself to those notes for improvisation, it really makes sense and gives a strongly ethnic Japanese flavour. How long did it take you to feel comfortable with the Japanese notation?


I didn't ever get the chance to get fully acclimated. This was only for about one month! My teacher was impressed both that a) I was interested at all, as a foreigner, and b) I had picked up the basics in a short amount of time. Strings 1-10 weren't too bad, because they just use the regular numbering. I still mixed up strings 11-13, which are symbolized by characters I was not familiar with at the time.

The numbering is
一　二　三　四　五　六　七　八　九　十　斗　為　巾 (I think that's the way the last 3 went...)


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## Head_case

Did you bring a koto back with you then? 

I worked in China out on assignment for a few years. One of my clients was a harp player whom I was working with. I ended up having lessons, although without a chinese harp, it was futile - just mostly forgetting everything in between lessons. My first teacher was a concert player who spoke fluent English. She taught me portamento and tremelo techniques so I'm not a complete numpty if I get the chance to mess with other people's harps in their living rooms 

I finally bought one. You have no idea how massive these things are. I couldn't sneak it on board the aeroplane as hand luggage :lol:


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## Ingélou

Henry VIII, Headcase?!?! Carolan was 17th/18th century, not 16th. And though as a Catholic, he suffered under the penal laws, his patrons were the (Protestant) Anglo-Irish gentry. 

The main reason for wanting a left hand for Carolan (it seems to me) is to capture some of the rippling depth of a harp. J. J. Sheridan does it beautifully, and after Taggart (my husband) has been listening to J. J., he can capture some of that in spontaneous chordwork (must be his Irish blood!). But it would be nice to see some pukka sheet music...

Harps are gorgeous, however - probably why the angels like them so much!


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## Head_case

Yup! That's right. Apart from a short spell under Queen Mary of Scots and that was very short, there was not much left of the catholic legacy in England; the desecration of the monasteries and abbeys contributed to a loss of much of the sacred music in the catholic tradition; not so for Purcell or the Lutheran Bach. Maybe Handel defies this explanation and shows that it's all wrong :lol:

I presume catholic scholarship in Ireland retreated during the reformation and in line with the English desacralisation following the plantation era whereby protestant lords bequeathed their protectorate and patronage on subsequent generations: this legacy would not have vanished completely in Carolan's life time.

In any case, it was unfashionable to be a catholic bard, and a blind one at that, but perhaps being harmless in this manner, live and let live. Strange it would be for his catholic music to be preserved by his protestant patrons; whereas the his 'secular' harp music lived on in the folk tradition, which like Carolan, did not require eyesight and yet, his works are collected splendidly in several editions (including the Hibernian Muse in the IMPLS link which will give you some pukka sheet music!).

I imagine (and I really don't know other than superficially), that Carolan was inspired as musicians in Ireland were, by the natural beauty of their home and their kinsfolk. Dance songs like Dr Delany or slow airs like Molly St George or Bumpers Squire Jones are probably dedications or paid for, at least inspired by real people in his lifetime. Or songs like "Captain Higgins" or "The general toast" (In the school for scandal) in the "In the Poor Soldier" collection are also tied with personal sentiment - songs like "Dear Catholic Brother" in this volume, can only make us think of how his personal faith interpenetrates, the very tapestry of his harp compositions.

The 'rippling depth' which you describe, is that glissando technique of the harp, which mirrors the rippling of waters - so beloved by the sisters, Moya Brennan (of former Clannad fame) and her less artistic sister but more commercial, Enya. Both avail of the glissando technique of the harp in their recordings (even if they don't personally play it). It has a kind of new age mother-earth attraction, but more importantly, arpeggiating in crescendo and diminuendo using glissando technique, elevated the human spirit beyond the every day, in the every day: that was the function of the bard: part Cassandra; part commentator, and mostly inspiration.

Even those of us who are too thick to get 'harp' can swallow this idea easily :lol:


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## Ingélou

Going back to 'Harp vs Piano', both instruments are good as accompaniments or 'grounds' to others. Piano & violin, obviously. But I really like the sound of harp blended with guitar on South American music e.g. by Los Paraguayos. Both are stringed instruments, & sometimes two similar things go really well together. (Have you ever tried rice & sauteed potatoes? Yummy!)


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## rocklandpiano

The piano is a musical instrument that is designed to be played by means of a keyboard. It is one of the most popular instruments in the world. Widely used in classical and jazz music for solo performances, ensemble use, chamber music and accompaniment, the piano is also very popular as an aid to composing and rehearsal. Although not portable and often expensive, the piano's versatility and ubiquity have made it one of the world's most familiar musical instruments.


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