# Is anyone wild about Telemann?



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Or do you find him a worthy, accomplished, unexciting bloke who wrote more than a little bit too much?

Even on Telemann's composer guestbook - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Philipp_Telemann - and on my thread 'For Love of the Baroque' https://www.talkclassical.com/52014-love-baroque-73.html#post1723283 post #1086 - one finds this difference of opinion.

I don't know what I think, yet. But I've reached Telemann in my project of listening to the 50 baroque composers on Wiki's shortlist, and I don't know where to start.

Can you point me in the direction of Telemann compositions that will inspire me - or steer me away from pieces that will bore me to death?

Thank you in advance for any replies. :tiphat:

(PS - And if there are none - well, then, I have my answer.  )


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The Ouvertures for orchestra are generally good - such as the Don Quixote, Hamburger Ebb und Flut, Of The Nations Ancient and Modern ... there's a wonderful recording by Marriner, and Harnoncourt's are good too.
The Fantasias for Solo Flute, the Concertos for 2 Flutes for example in the Pal Nemeth recording, the Ino Cantata.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Wasn't there a recent thread where some argued that Telemann was greater than Bach?


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

He's ace. Try the Alster Overture, with its mimicking of animals





I can do this all week!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> Wasn't there a recent thread where some argued that Telemann was greater than Bach?


Oh sorry - I missed it. Will ask Taggart.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Ingélou said:


> Oh sorry - I missed it. Will ask Taggart.


https://www.talkclassical.com/63078-who-greater-bach-telemann.html?highlight=
Here you are.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

:tiphat: Thank you, Rogerx! 

PS - it seems to be mainly people saying that they voted for one or the other.

Larkenfield is the only one (unless I'm mistaken) who posts a link. I will repost it:






G.Ph. Telemann: Cantata «Ino» in C major TWV 20:41


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I like Telemann, special his vocal works, for a list see the Presto site special the CPO recordings.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=telemann cantatas cpo
Good luck.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I like quite a bit of Telemann. I recently bought the 6 Paris Quartets (Quadri performed by Trio Sonnerie) and loved them. I also love the Tafelmusik though I could see how some would consider them nice rather than gripping.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Rogerx said:


> I like Telemann, special his vocal works, for a list see the Presto site special the CPO recordings.
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=telemann cantatas cpo
> Good luck.


Any particular cds featuring his vocal music that you (or anyone) would recommend?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Blancrocher said:


> Any particular cds featuring his vocal music that you (or anyone) would recommend?


Telemann: Veni sancte spiritus/ Telemann: Christmas Cantatas/ Oratoria / Advent Cantatas 
.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Telemann is quite good. He has a lot of music to sort through but it is mostly high in quality and enjoyability. It is not the bland repetitiveness that some musicologists have made it out to be.

But greater than Bach or even Handel? Not in my opinion. For me, Handel's operas alone put him above Telemann.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I have never been bored by Telemann no matter what works I've listened to. He was a master of both old and new styles and techniques, imaginative, versatile, and deserving of the esteem and popularity he earned in his lifetime. If I'm not in the mood for Bachian contrapuntal contrivances and Lutheran pietism (which I frequently am not), Telemann's easy virtuosity and lightness of spirit may be just the thing.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

The problem I've had with Telemann, is that he doesn't seem to have a very distinctive compositional voice, (compared with a composer like Vivaldi for example). Telemann's music often comes across to me as essentially generic Baroque aesthetic, however well crafted.

In addition to this I'm almost always in the mood for Bachian contrapuntal contrivances and Lutheran pietism. 

This said, posters like Woodduck and classical Yorkist who have shown enthusiasm for him lately on here have peaked my interest and I'm giving some of his music a listen, and I do certainly find some of it enjoyable, for example these orchestral suites are rather nice:


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

tdc said:


> The problem I've had with Telemann, is that he doesn't seem to have a very distinctive compositional voice, (compared with a composer like Vivaldi for example). Telemann's music often comes across to me as essentially generic Baroque aesthetic, however well crafted.


I think this is very well put. We were listening to a Telemann cd this morning, and I felt exactly the same.

:tiphat: Thanks for providing a link. I will try and listen to anything that anybody recommends on this thread.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Have you tried the collection of works published as Tafelmusik? Lots of good bits in there, overtures, Concertos and the like. I think it gives a good idea of what he's like as a composer, and there's some fun in there too! I have this set, and I enjoy it very much, although even a mere dabbler in the Baroque such as myself can recognise he's not in the same league as Bach or Handel.









Anyone who writes 7,000,000 works is bound to be accused of being dull. To be honest I'd put Vivaldi much higher in the tedium rankings......


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## Iota (Jun 20, 2018)

Somebody (on here I believe) posted this Telemann cantata, comparing it favourably with any of Bach's. Though I wouldn't get into such comparisons, I found it very attractive.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

The Tafelmusik is interesting as a synthesis of all the most popular styles of the time. This one's french this ones Italian etc but it's a little daunting as a listening experience. Also, it's very much situational music, composed to be performed at banquets/feasts etc, so it's never going to jump out as virtuosic. If one enjoys the harpsichord, as I do, it's worth some (or all!) of his 36 fantasias for harpsichord. I'll have a think about his cantatas and post about them soon.


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## sonance (Aug 20, 2018)

Telemann's Overtures and Suites have been named and I second those nominations, as example I'd like to present:

Overture-Suite in D major, TWV 5518 (Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin)





Then of course there is the famous violin concerto "Die Relinge" (The Frogs; Les Rainettes)





As you obviously are fond of the fiddle you might like Telemann's Fantasias for solo violin. My disc is by Augustin Hadelich (Naxos), which I strongly recommend. YouTube offers all 12 fantasias, though not as playlist. Here is no. 1:





A few years ago somebody discovered that Telemann - besides Fantasias for solo violin, for harpsichord, for flute - also composed fantasias for viola da gamba. My recording is by a favorite of mine: Paolo Pandolfo. But other performances also received high praise.

Fantasia no. 6 (Paolo Pandolfo)





And of course his famous tragic-comic funeral cantata for a canary needs to be mentioned. There is a fine performance by Carolyn Sampson, but the YouTube clips with Fischer-Dieskau also give the translation:

Part 1 (Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau)




Part 2: 



Part 3: 




Rogerx mentioned Telemann's choral works, which I don't know very well. I guess there is a whole world to discover ...

From the few Telemann recordings with vocal music that I own I'd like to recommend the "Trauer-Actus" performed by Cantus Cölln (running out of allowed number of videos I just give the link to the complete album):





Am I wild about Telemann? No. But I appreciate his music very much as I do with music by many famous and many not yet famous composers ...


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I don't know why I haven't looked more deeply into Telemann. I have usually enjoyed what I've heard of his music and these records get played fairly often in my house:


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

If you're feeling brave you should give his Passions Oratorium a listen. It's long but does feature some wonderful moments:




Most of Telemann's cantatas are not like Bach's. Telemann's often tend to be smaller works for voice, one instrument and BC. They were meant for domestic performance rather than large scale works. His Harmonischer Gottesdienst is a case in point, a cycle of 72 small scale devotional works. They are highly recommended for listening. Telemann is a 'show don't tell' kind of composer, preferring to use emotionally direct music to articulate the meaning of the texts. He's a heart on his sleeve kind of composer.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

OK, how is this for wild:

If the Rolling Stones played this instead of what they did there would not have been so much mayhem and addiction since the 60s.





G.Ph. Telemann: Concerto in D major for Violin, Cello, Trumpet and Strings, TWV 535


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

regenmusic said:


> OK, how is this for wild:
> 
> If the Rolling Stones played this instead of what they did there would not have been so much mayhem and addiction since the 60s.
> 
> ...


Brilliant!  :tiphat:
But would the Stones have had the chops for it?


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

And this is an absolute must listen for those who think Telemann never pushed any boundaries. He has a wonderful sense of the absurd and a fabulous musical sense of humour. I find him the most human of all baroque composers.




Telemann the Avant gardist!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Just to say that I've listened to this recommended video - and it is absolutely gorgeous, especially the songs by the counter-tenor.
It made my spirit sing - so not just the writing of a boring but competent bloke.

It was recommended by classical yorkist, who described it as the best piece of Telemann that he had heard at that point. 
Sir, I salute you! :tiphat:

*Latin Magnificat in C major for Soloists, Choir and Orchestra

Georg Philipp Telemann (1681 - 1767)

Alsfelder Vokalensemble
Barockorchester Bremen*


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

regenmusic said:


> OK, how is this for wild:
> 
> If the Rolling Stones played this instead of what they did there would not have been so much mayhem and addiction since the 60s.
> 
> ...


Thanks, regensmusic :tiphat: - I loved listening. I found it 'lovely & lyrical' rather than 'wild', though. 

What a fabulous blend of instruments.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> :tiphat: Thank you, Rogerx!
> 
> PS - it seems to be mainly people saying that they voted for one or the other.
> 
> ...


I listened to this just now - the video ends abruptly just over halfway through, then just as abruptly restarts five minutes later - winks out - then revives again for the last half-minute of the tape.
Although the singing is fine, I found the music fussy, but without much variation in its fussiness.
It just wasn't my cup of tea.

One of the posts beneath the video shows that beauty is in the ear of the beholder:
*'Telemann wrote this cantata in 1765, he was 84 years old. This music is fresh, inventious (sic)! This is wonderful!'

*
Also, Larkenfield :tiphat: recommends it, and I often agree with him - just not this time.

So it must be my insensitive ear, & not Telemann's fault. 
All the same, it's not the one to excite me and convert me to the view that Telemann is more than 'a competent bloke'.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I've mainly heard "Ino" in the Harnoncourt recording & liked it. Includes an Ouverture. But maybe Larkenfield's is better sung.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I am not wild about Telemann. I once had a cheesy CD set from some budget label in a box of CDs from a garage sale. It was titled, Telemann Dinner Music. The title turned me off to Telemann. Who would want to listen to dinner music? But that's all I know. Might still have that CD somewhere in the cellar.


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## BobBrines (Jun 14, 2018)

^The German title is "Tafelmusik", and this and the Paris quartets pretty much sums up Telemann's instrumental music. If you can't find something you like here, you really do need to avoid Telemann.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I am not wild about Telemann. I once had a cheesy CD set from some budget label in a box of CDs from a garage sale. It was titled, Telemann Dinner Music. The title turned me off to Telemann. Who would want to listen to dinner music? But that's all I know. Might still have that CD somewhere in the cellar.


Tafelmusik was a very common genre in the 18th century. Usually commissioned by wealthy patrons or monarchs as music to be played while they dined or entertained. Haydn wrote quite a bit for the Esterhazy's early in his career. Telemann's Tafelmusik was incredibly popular with many, many subscribers to the sheet music, more than 200 (a large number for the day) including Handel in London. There's actually four full CDs of it and its a wonderful example of music composed in all the most fashionable styles of the day.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Iota said:


> Somebody (on here I believe) posted this Telemann cantata, comparing it favourably with any of Bach's. *Though I wouldn't get into such comparisons, I found it very attractive.*
> 
> Telemann - Cantata "Seele, lerne dich erkennen" TWV1:1258


I totally agree - I just listened & thought it was lovely.

Thank you, Iota. :tiphat:


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

sonance said:


> Telemann's Overtures and Suites have been named and I second those nominations, as example I'd like to present:
> 
> Overture-Suite in D major, TWV 5518 (Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin)
> 
> ...


I'm listening to this first of the videos that you recommend, sonance. :tiphat:

It's more a fresh, vigorous strutting than a graceful complex haunting dance, but stirring and attractive.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Enthusiast said:


> Wasn't there a recent thread where some argued that Telemann was greater than Bach?


That was a useful thread, but I wonder why we have to constantly view some Composers in comparison with others. For example, I currently am enjoying an album of music by Hummel. It is hard to read anything about Hummel where he isn't being constantly compared with Mozart, Beethoven, etc. at the same applies to Telemann. The Great Is The Enemy Of The Good? It would be nice to discuss these Composers on their own merits


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I've just heard the Concerto for 3 Oboes in Bb major. Now I'm a believer.


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## Schoenberg (Oct 15, 2018)

Telemann explored genres that most composers simply ignored, or wrote very little music for.
Examples of which being his 12 solo flute fantasias, his 12 solo violin fantasias, and his 6 canonic sonatas. For this reason I often find myself listening to Telemann--although Bach might have written a better flute partita then any of the solo flute fantasias, Telemann wrote over four times as much solo flute music as Bach.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

This is beautiful stuff, 432 Hz "healing" aside  :




Also this is probably the first Telemann I heard on our local classical station as a kid, and it's still one of my favorites:


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Telemann wrote a lot of good music. It's just not as durable as Bach's.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

This thread reminded me of this gorgeous piece. It always stuck with me because my first thought upon hearing it was to look up if it was misattributed. It doesn't sound like Telemann to me really, but maybe I need to hear more.






I find this true of most baroque era composers now that I think of it, but if I'm willing to sift through ten or fifteen forgettable pieces I'll usually find a miniature masterpiece by Telemann.






For instance, I've listened to at least an hour of this compilation without finding anything interesting, but the allegro at 1:55 is one of my top ten favorite fast movements in the baroque era. It's vigorous energy and variety of motion is inexhaustible to me. I've heard it at least one hundred times over the past few years and I never get tired of it. Telemann has a penchant for driving "beats" that I really like, and that I found attractive when I was a rock fan new to classical music.










I've always loved the baroque era for its quick hits of singular, simple emotions. Sometimes I just want to put on something joyful or aggressive without all the capricious shifts. I put on something romantic or modern to complement the beautiful morning outside, and it's not long before my cheerful violin sonata has transformed into a melancholy meditation on the human condition. I put on Telemann and it's like I've painted my wall a nice happy yellow, just one solid color that feels like my brain in that moment.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

"Is anyone wild about Telemann?"

Not wild about Telemann; but good music for brunch or dinner as long as you don't play too many things by Telemann one after another.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Coach G said:


> "Is anyone wild about Telemann?"
> 
> Not wild about Telemann; but good music for brunch or dinner as long as you don't play too many things by Telemann one after another.


I was about to post exactly the same sentiment. Wild about is not a Telemann thing I recognise.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

From my perspective, the gold in Telemann's works is found in his vocal compositions.


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## cybernaut (Feb 6, 2021)

I'm a fan of Telemann for sure. IMO he composed a lot of beautiful music.

e.g.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

The Tafelmusik rings a bell as being listenable.


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## cybernaut (Feb 6, 2021)

more beauty from Telemann


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Yes, I am wild about Telemann...one of my favorite composers.

Some links are for single movements...of course I recommend you listen to all the pieces in their entirety.

Wrap your ears around this piece...here is the final movement of his Concerto for Traverso and Recorder in E minor...dig the section beginning at 14'34"...brilliant!






The ebullient finale from his Concerto in E major for flute, oboe d'amore, viola d'amore & strings:






His wonderful Burlesque de Quixotte:






The Harlequinade "Der scherzende Tritonus" from his Ouverture Suite in C major "Hamburger Ebb und Fluth":


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## WNvXXT (Nov 22, 2020)

Ouverture-Suite in D Major, TWV 55: D1
Conductor: Pieter-Jan Belder
Composer: Georg Philipp Telemann

I. Ouverture. Lentement - Vite - Lentement - Vite - Lentement
II. Air. Tempo giusto
III. Air. Vivace
IV. Air. Presto
V. Air. Allegro · Musica Amphion & Pieter-Jan Belder


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

I have started to listen to Baroque more than I used to and I can really appreciate Telemann !


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## jkl (May 4, 2021)

I enjoy Telemann's many concertos, suites and chamber music.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Telemann had the bad luck that not only overlaps his life and work quite a bit with Bach's but that the early Bach scholars in the mid/late 19th century never forgave him to have been more highly regarded than Bach back in the day (whereas they had no such problems with Handel, probably because he was in Britain and more different from Bach in other ways as well). They used every opportunity to show how supposedly mediocre Telemann was compared to Bach. Which is silly, because Bach was also highly regarded (Telemann was like #1 and Bach was #3) and the composers were friends, so Telemann was Godfather of CPE Bach. It gets even more ironic when a few of spurious cantatas earlier attributed to JS Bach turned out to have been composed by Telemann. 
His own fault was that he simply wrote too much, so we can hardly edit everything, much less record or listen to it. The next bad luck was that Vivaldi somehow got a head start in the baroque revival of the 1950s, that the 4 season are as picturesque and a bit more tuneful than "Don Quixote" or "Hamburger Ebb und Flut" and maybe that the mostly violin/string music of Vivaldi worked better on modern instruments than Telemann who very often used odd combinations, including recorder, oboe d'amore etc. (There are of course also similar pieces by Vivaldi but these are not the ones that made him a household name already in the 60s.)
I have to admit that I also don't know enough of his vocal music (there is a very nice disc with funeral? cantatas on harmonia mundi, and the "Donnerode" is a fun piece) but I find his orchestral music at least as good as Vivaldi's and Handel's, his chamber music actually better.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I enjoy Telemann. His vast, enormous oeuvre has so many masterpieces to choose from. I am however only starting to appreciate his operas,


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> Wasn't there a recent thread where some argued that Telemann was greater than Bach?


Telemann is greater than Bach.

Some of my finest work.


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## ando (Apr 18, 2021)

Well I'm not wild about him (doesn't have the inventiveness of Bach, imo) but I do like his sacred works. Just picked up this 8 CD set. Streaming on most music platforms.


















*Georg Philipp Telemann Sacred Music
* *Akademie fur Alte Musik Berlin, Rene Jacobs, Ulrich Stotzel *
*Hanssler Classic: HC17014*

Spotify Edition


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I don't often put on Telemann, maybe because I'm wild about Bach. When I do listen to him, I enjoy it enough


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

What on earth can one have against Telemann, perhaps not your style but for me one of the greatest composers .


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Rogerx said:


> What on earth can one have against Telemann, perhaps not your style but for me one of the greatest composers .


I don't have anything against him - he just doesn't wow me. But I'm always willing to be convinced.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Ingélou said:


> I don't have anything against him - he just doesn't wow me. But I'm always willing to be convinced.


Not even the Violin Concertos = COP has a good one with the Wallfisch Band.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Ingélou said:


> G.Ph. Telemann: Cantata «Ino» in C major TWV 20:41


This recording is faulty. There are vast spaces with music muted. eg. 20:00~24:00


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I was reposting Larkenfield's link (in November 2019) from a thread cited by Rogerx - Poll: Who is greater Bach or Telemann? https://www.talkclassical.com/63078-who-greater-bach-telemann.html?highlight= - if anyone wants to follow it up.

Please, though, if someone has a really exciting piece of Telemann, do post the link. :tiphat:


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## ansfelden (Jan 11, 2022)

i love Telemann, just as Vivaldi and Bach, they are nearly on level for me.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> Wasn't there a recent thread where some argued that Telemann was greater than Bach?


Different thread than in post #6:

Telemann is greater than Bach.


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