# Non-Western classical music



## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Is there anyone here familiar with that? If yes, could you share your experiences, recommendations, etc.

But first let me clarify what I'm looking for.

a) I am NOT looking for traditional, folk, ethnic, world... etc... music.
b) I am NOT looking for Western classical music composed outside of the Western world or by non-Western composers... so for example a typical Western symphony or sonata composed by Japanese or Indian composer is not what I'm looking for

I am looking for native, authentic traditions/schools/canons of art (or serious/erudite/classsical) music that originated outside the western world and developed on its own, more or less independently from Western music influences.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

I am looking for something like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_classical_music

(just an example)

But I am not looking for Wikipedia articles (which I can find on my own), but for your personal experiences, thoughts, opinions, etc...


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Art-Rock had a game about non-western classical music. 
here is a list of nominated compositions
Game: works by composers from Asia/Africa/Oceania (nominations)


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Jacck said:


> Art-Rock had a game about non-western classical music.
> here is a list of nominated compositions
> Game: works by composers from Asia/Africa/Oceania (nominations)


well I think I need to repeat this:

b) I am NOT looking for Western classical music composed outside of the Western world or by non-Western composers... so for example a typical Western symphony or sonata composed by Japanese or Indian composer is not what I'm looking for


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Jacck said:


> Art-Rock had a game about non-western classical music.
> here is a list of nominated compositions
> Game: works by composers from Asia/Africa/Oceania (nominations)


However, thank you, as this list is also very valuable and I will dig into it as well, but this is not what I am looking for right now.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Shanghai Chinese Traditional Orchestra


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

I just found this which seems to belong to Turkish classical music tradition, but to my ears it sounds more like a folk song:






To be honest I'm not really impressed.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

japanese mandolin orchestra, Hiro Fujikake - Pastoral Fantasy


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

On the other hand, I find this really beautiful.






But those are all random digs.

I'm wondering if we Westerners can really appreciate and understand these types of music.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Ondekoza comes into mind. It's a Japanese music group that creates and performs on (primarily) traditional drums. They have released a lot of CDs that can be easily found on amazon. There are also lots of clips on YouTube.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Non-Western Classical music that is not folk music. Here is some


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Good videos, but could someone contribute with their views, opinions, experiences?

I'm interested in things like this:

1) how far did other traditions of classical music go in their development
2) is there something in these traditions that can't be found in Western Classical Music
3) how informed is the Western classical music about these traditions, does it borrow from it, does it incorporate insights from these traditions
4) are these traditions still alive, or it's all westernized now?
5) who are the best composers, most important works
6) what we can learn from these traditions, both when it comes to music itself, and when it comes to attitudes towards music and aesthetic values of these traditions
7) and finally the notorious question: in terms of quality, which is better (I know, I know... )
Though I guess it depends on whose aesthetic values we use as a criteria...


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

ZJovicic said:


> 7) and finally the notorious question: in terms of quality, which is better (I know, I know... )
> Though I guess it depends on whose aesthetic values we use as a criteria...


That's for you to decide, although I have no idea why you would want to make these comparisons.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

ZJovicic said:


> Good videos, but could someone contribute with their views, opinions, experiences?
> 
> I'm interested in things like this:
> 
> ...


For Chinese Classical music, it was considered quite developed for its time. They had different instruments and timbres. Debussy incorporated a lot of oriental scales into his music. These were composed (or arranged in the latter example) in the 20th Century, and is still quite in the traditional way, although I think the orchestration is influenced by Western Classical.











These are more predominantly Western style compositions with native Chinese influence:











I've grown to dislike both the Butterfly Lovers and the Yellow River Concerto. I can tell they are vastly inferior to music by the Western masters. The Butterfly Lovers is like an inferior rip-off of Vaughan Williams Lark Ascending, infused with lots of folk tunes. The Yellow River is worse to me.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Traditional Music Channel:

https://www.youtube.com/user/pupsibaerle1

I've quite a large collection myself. I focus on Indian, Persian, Korean, and Japanese classical traditions.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

I believe I can provide some insight into Hindustani (Northern Indian) classical music, which I've explored thanks to greats such as Ravi Shankar and Nikhil Banerjee. The main differentiating factor when compared to most Western music is the complete absence of harmony: emphasis is put on melody and rhythm. If you close your eyes and listen, the effect is astounding -- spiritual, dare I say. I would direct you to the wiki page to learn more about the technical aspects (the article explains it far better than I could).

Since Hindustani music is based almost entirely on improvisation, don't go looking for composers and "best" works; instead, collect albums by performer. The names listed above are my favorite sitar players (although I haven't listened to nearly enough). I also like Hariprasad Chaurasia, a flautist. Also: vocal music is a huge part of the Hindustani tradition, but I've yet to approach it.

Albums you should hear:
- Banerjee/Dutta: _Afternoon Ragas_
- Shankar/Lal/Mullick: _The Sounds of India_
- Shankar/Menuhin et al.: _West Meets East_ (a classic)
- Sharma/Kabra/Chaurasia: _Call of the Valley_


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

These are some well known examples of Turkish Art Music Tradition. I chose the reference recordings for the vocal ones deliberately but if you don't like the sound and would like to look further down, there are plenty of modern renditions for each one on YT. This tradition has its own system, forms and instruments and does not have apparent organic relations to Western Classical Music.



ZJovicic said:


> I'm interested in things like this:
> 
> 1) how far did other traditions of classical music go in their development
> 2) is there something in these traditions that can't be found in Western Classical Music
> ...


1) TAM tradition never had the historical opportunities to develop in orchestral forms and was almost entirely confined into the chamber&vocal forms.
2) TAM's system is a microtonal system and it constantly uses non-Western instruments like Kanun or Ney, therefore it might offer some new sound experiences that Western Classical Music wouldn't offer.
3) Turkish Western Classical Music composers such as Adnan Saygun and _the Turkish Five_ used some of the concepts or melodies of TAM in their occidental compositions. (e.g. Saygun's Solo Piano works on _Aksak _Rhythms)
4) I'm pretty sure that it is dead in terms of creating new compositions. But the works of this tradition are still widely performed within Turkey even though it is mostly hybridized with Western instrumentalization. (the rendition of Hacı Arif Bey's work on post #7 is an example)
5) Itrî, Hafız Post - 17th century
Ismail Dede Efendi - 18th c.
Tanburi Cemil Bey, Kemani Tatyos Efendi - 19th c.
Sadettin Kaynak, Münir Nurettin Selçuk - 20th c.
6) TAM tradition does not necessarily offer new compositional techniques and I doubt it if you can learn anything from the music itself but its deep buried roots are intertwined with spirituality and until 18th century most of the musicians were scholars as well and many of them studied Islamic Mysticism. Most naturally their music also explored Mysticism into some extent. One of my British friends was intrigued by some early Ilahi (Hymn) he digged into some related Masnawis and eventually became a Sufi scholar. (BTW I'm just trying to sell the stuff I don't really believe in Mysticism or any of this stuff )
7) TAM is almost in every single aspect inferior to the Western Classical Music and it would be very unfair to compare them seriously. And even though I like this TAM stuff very much I still love and listen Western Classical Music hundreds of time better. The only single moment I'd rather to listen TAM over WCM is when I have the "Blues" and drinking Rakı with friends. :cheers:


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I would second Portamento's nomination of Northern Indian music -- and would add to his list virtually anything by Vilayat Khan. By way of explanation, in college I took an ethnomusicology course from a professor who was well versed in Indian music, explained it well, and opened my ears to what had previously seemed to be aimlesss noodling.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Another fine performer of ragas is Dr. Gaurang Yodh, with Dinesh Patel on tabla. Yodh combined his sitar play with being a nuclear physicist.....


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Anything by *Ali Akbar Khan*


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I have recently purchased this book:
The other classical musics, editor Michael Church









Each of the 15 chapters explores a region's music. History, instruments, some musical theory etc. Andalusia, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Turkey, Iran, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, North India, South India, China, Chinese Opera, Japan, Java, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Europe, America, Mali, Senegal

I haven't read it yet.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

It can be a fuzzy, ill-defined line that separates non-western classical from folk music. Here is a recent thread in the Non-Classical forum that can also be mined for examples of relevant non-western musical traditions:

Middle Eastern, Arabic, Turkish classical or folk music recommendations please


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

> ZJovicic: "I'm wondering if we Westerners can really appreciate and understand these types of music."


I am certain that westerners can really appreciate these musics. Whether we can understand them to the degree that someone within the culture can is another matter. My own introduction into non-western musics came from my love affair with flamenco as a teen, and also listening to Radio Cairo on shortwave radio in my youth and being infatuated with the exotic strangeness of the music. It is significant, though, that few would-be flamenco guitarists not raised within the tradition (of which there are many) have successfully accompanied authentic _cante flamenco_, and the number of flamenco singers outside the tradition can be counted on the fingers of a fingerless hand. (Not entirely true. The American Moreen Sondra Silver made the attempt, but with questionable results.)


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Some great names in Hindustani classical music have already been mentioned, but one who hasn't is Asad Ali Khan on the rudra veena. An astonishing instrument. I'm not as well versed in Carnatic classical but Aruna Sayeeram has an album of Carnatic songs which I enjoy a lot.






Also surprised to see that gamelan hasn't been mentioned yet, really fascinating set of traditions.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

I'm not as well-versed in Carnatic music, but it's on my list of things to do.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

ZJovicic said:


> I am looking for native, authentic traditions/schools/canons of art (or serious/erudite/classsical) music that originated outside the western world and developed on its own, more or less independently from Western music influences.


Ethnic music is a huge field, with many examples -

Try the Balinese music - Gamelan orchestras - very sophisticated
Indian[Asia] - very sophisticated, based on different scales, forms etc
African - a very rich culture of ethnic music - West American drum/percussion music is extremely developed and sophisticated rhythmically - related to
Caribbean [Voodoo],
also, Brazilian,/Bahian, 
Japanese, Aboriginal, Native American, Eastern European, Middle Eastern....
there are so many....


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

ZJovicic said:


> On the other hand, I find this really beautiful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, we can - but we have to accept that there are basic, essential differences - the scales used may well use microtones, different intervals - the "octave" scale may have considerably more than 12 "half-steps" mixed meters, complex rhythm patterns may be involved, which are at first, incomprehensible to our ears...some western African drum ensembles may perform music in which a "measure" may consist of over 500 bits of sub-division!! in one measure!! a Strauss waltz may consist of a mere 12!! maybe 24 if we stretch it......a Sousa march maybe 8 or 12....

ethnic music is quite fascinating....


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## Sad Al (Feb 27, 2020)

About Carnatic classical. Nithyasree Mahadevan is a wonderful singer, she's indeed a South Indian female nightingale. So is Bombay Jayashree. Her voice is darker than that of Nithyasree. Then there are S. Sowmya and the veteran S.Janaki. Among late veena artists, I can recommend Emani Shankara Sastry, S.Balachander and Chitti Babu, who could sometimes sound like a South Indian version of Jimi Hendrix. Arguably Emani Shankara Sastry was the Holy Spirit, S.Balachander was the Father and Chitti Babu was the Son.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Heck148 said:


> Yes, we can - but we have to accept that there are basic, essential differences - the scales used may well use microtones, different intervals - the "octave" scale may have considerably more than 12 "half-steps" mixed meters, complex rhythm patterns may be involved, which are at first, incomprehensible to our ears...some western African drum ensembles may perform music in which a "measure" may consist of over 500 bits of sub-division!! in one measure!! a Strauss waltz may consist of a mere 12!! maybe 24 if we stretch it......a Sousa march maybe 8 or 12....
> 
> ethnic music is quite fascinating....


Most Hindustani music is based on the equivalents of diatonic modes and the most common rhythm, tintal, is a four beat pattern


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Red Terror said:


> Anything by *Ali Akbar Khan*


Agreed. 15 characters, OK?


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

some 4-beat major scale action here





Raga is not simply a scale, although related. The 'rules' of this particular raga are, in simplistic terms, play the major scale, emphasize the 3rd and 6th scale degrees. More technically, there is an ascending and descending typical structure of :

Arohana (ascending): S GR G P ND N S'

Avarohana (decending): S' ND n D P M G MR S

Where S=do R=re G=mi M=fa P=sol D=la N=ti (lower case would be flattened, so n=te and ' means an octave higher) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svara) and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhaiya_Bilaval


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

I am interested in the music of Mongolia and of Vietnam and have attended numerous musical performances in both of those countries over the past 20 years. However, I am not able to differentiate between "traditional" and "classical" music in the case of these two nations' musical traditions. If I may call the music that I am interested in and know something about "traditional/classical," I can say that in both Mongolia and Vietnam there are ensembles orchestras which use a variety of instruments to play complex musical compositions from over a century ago as well as from more recent times.

Studying the traditional/classical music of Mongolia and Vietnam through Web and paper sources as well as by talking with native musicians, it is interesting that both of these nations' music developed from the folk music traditions of a number of different ethnic groups. (This point is also made in Wikipedia articles on the Music of Mongolia and the Music of Vietnam.)

Mongolian traditional/classical music that I have experienced in person involves primarily the _morin khuur_ two-string bowed instrument, usually in at least two sizes. There are also other stringed instruments, one with three strings with no obvious cognate in other East Asian cultures and one type of zither that is similar to the other East Asian zithers except that it tends to be struck rather than plucked. There are also two kinds of reed instruments and a flute, and there are drums with stretched hide strike faces and cymbals. These instruments are described in Wikipedia articles and other literature. The performances I have seen range from a five or six person ensemble to an orchestra of more than 30 musicians (consisting of about 20 _morin khuur_ of various sizes plus the other types of instruments). The performances typically do not include vocalists, though I have heard the famous Mongolian throat singing performed with instrumental ensembles or orchestras. This seems to be viewed as a strange arrangement, however. I do not own a single recording of this music. I plan to start collecting it on CD if I can find it in-country the next time I'm there (I spend time there regularly).

Vietnamese traditional/classical music that I have experienced in person involves about five different kinds of instruments -- stringed, wind, and percussion -- and in some forms, also voice or voices. The instruments have cognates in the other traditional East Asian cultures (China, Japan, Korea, and Mongolia), but are not exactly the same. (There are plenty of descriptions of these instruments, such as the _dan tranh_ zither, in the literature on Vietnamese music.) Vietnamese people definitely recognize that traditional/classical music is not the same as folk music, though folk melodies run through the music (cf. Hungarian folk themes in Bartok, English folk themes in Vaughan Williams, and so forth). The Vietnamese traditional/classical CDs I own are not commercial; they were sold to me by the musical groups themselves and are not high fidelity recordings. I try to collect these.

Comparing Mongolian and Vietnamese music, I can say this: In Vietnamese music, the zither tends to be most prominent, whereas in Mongolian the _morin khuur_ is by far the most prominent instrument; Vietnamese percussion instruments are wood or clay objects, whereas Mongolian drums have stretched animal skin strike faces; the occasional use of cymbals in Mongolian music seems influenced by Tibetan Buddhist music that I have heard, and I have not seen cymbals used in Vietnamese music; I have never seen a reed instrument played in a Vietnamese ensemble, but there are two kinds I have seen in Mongolia and they are not rare; I have seen the musicians in both countries use sheet music, though they do not always use it, and when they've let me look at it I saw that some of it is expressed as notes in Western-type clefs while some of it is in some kind of other notation (different for Mongolia and Vietnam). In both countries the musicians I have met and spoken with started playing their instruments as children and belong to a guild that is recognized by the government. Most of them are professional musicians who do not have other employment. They make their living playing concerts and shows for special events.

I hope this is somewhat interesting and responsive to the OP. I am just an enthusiast, not an expert, and I'm just reporting here what I've actually experienced.


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## Sad Al (Feb 27, 2020)

The music of Mongolia and of Vietnam sounds very interesting but I can only speak about something I know something about. Thus, to bore everyone to death, I discuss Indian classical music. That is, Hindustani (North Indian) and Carnatic (South Indian) music. Hindustani music is more spectacular and Carnatic music is more primitive, although some, perhaps me included, say it is more interesting. One of the best Hindustani singers is Malini Rajunkar, One of the best late Hindustani singers was Kishori Amonkar. I have many of her recordings, including the first 1967 one. I can also recommend Parveen Sultana who sings a ridiculously high note (c.32 mins) on her 1999/2000 CD. On that CD she sings the whole of Raga Jog. It lasts 58 minutes. What is the note that she sings at c. 32 mins. during her Raga Jog? Can anyone answer?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Chinese classical music has been mentioned, but Chinese opera not (unless I missed it). There are various versions of it. I went to a performance of a Shanghai style Chinese opera about ten years ago with my father-in-law (who is a great fan), but I found it too alien to enjoy. Your mileage may vary - it has many enthusiastic fans after all.


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## Sad Al (Feb 27, 2020)

I decided to listen to Nithyasree Mahadevan - a Carnatic nightingale - to flush all that Mahler soap from my ears. If you want to get rid of Mahler, I can recommend Nithyasree's albums Ksetra Madurai and Ragam Bhairavi. Both are on Chennai-based Charsur label that is my favorite in Carnatic music.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

How do we even know that non-Western cultures have a classical music? What would be the difference between non-Western non-classical music and non-Western classical music? 

We have failed to even determine the difference between classical and non-classical music in our own Western societies. We can't seem to agree on definitions.


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## Sad Al (Feb 27, 2020)

This is excellent. PLAY IT LOUD! A South Indian version of Clapton in his Cream days. Yehudi Menuhim was his fan. The marvelous drummer is probably Madras Kannan. I have this LP on CD.






No it isn't Madras Kannan. I have three CDs that this wonderful artist recorded, including the 1974 Playasound disc.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Open Book said:


> How do we even know that non-Western cultures have a classical music? What would be the difference between non-Western non-classical music and non-Western classical music?
> 
> We have failed to even determine the difference between classical and non-classical music in our own Western societies. We can't seem to agree on definitions.


Essentially classical music = court music, developed music for social elites


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## Sad Al (Feb 27, 2020)

A Carnatic gem, wonderful artist and raga. This is the final 72th raga in the Carnatic system. It is said that God has 72 names...


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