# How to fugue ANY melody?



## mediumaevum

I want to learn the straightforward method of writing a fugue of any melody.

Everybody says its straightforward, easy and what have you (not). 

Please don't give me pdf's of book references. I want a simple, straightforward method, right here on this forum in a forum post, on how I can turn a simple melody into a fugue, or a good youtube-tutorial to explain it. I have been looking for a good youtube-tutorial, but there seem to be none, so far.


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## Larkenfield

mediumaevum said:


> I want to learn the straightforward method of writing a fugue of any melody.
> 
> Everybody says its straightforward, easy and what have you (not).
> 
> Please don't give me pdf's of book references. I want a simple, straightforward method, right here on this forum in a forum post, on how I can turn a simple melody into a fugue, or a good youtube-tutorial to explain it. I have been looking for a good youtube-tutorial, but there seem to be none, so far.


Well, some might say that's rather like asking for free online lessons on how to become a brain surgeon. Maybe writing a fugue is not as easy as some claim it to be.

It's very easy to find books on _counterpoint_ that explain it, as a starting point. Look for examples and analyze them after understanding the principles behind it. You might surprise yourself. But coming up with a theme and writing a fugue based on it is not exactly like falling off a log. It takes talent, considerable practice, and consistent effort if Bach is any example. Bach also wrote an ambitious little work called _The Art of the Fugue_.

I may be out of line in saying this, but I feel that anyone who is serious about learning anything about music is crazy by trying to learn it on this or any forum, though occasionally one might get a good lead on how to do something. It's hard to know who to trust... _Mastering_ anything in music is just not that easy, or everyone would be doing it and have the answer to Ives _ The Unanswered_ _Question._


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## EdwardBast

Larkenfield said:


> Well, some might say that's rather like asking for free online lessons on how to become a brain surgeon. Maybe writing a fugue is not as easy as some claim it to be.


I would assume the OP is joking, perhaps parodying other posts in the Theory Forum?


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## mediumaevum

EdwardBast said:


> I would assume the OP is joking, perhaps parodying other posts in the Theory Forum?


I'm not joking and I am not parodying anything on this forum. I genuinely want to learn this, as easy and fast as possible, even though it may not be that easy or fast, I just want to learn it.


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## EdwardBast

mediumaevum said:


> I'm not joking and I am not parodying anything on this forum. I genuinely want to learn this, as easy and fast as possible, even though it may not be that easy or fast, I just want to learn it.


My apologies. To give a good answer you will need to tell us what skills you currently have. Have you studied music theory? How well do you read music? Do you play an instrument? Also, we should know what style you want to learn. Do you want to be able to write fugues like Bach's? Or Beethoven's? Or Shostakovich's? Other?

Generally, this sort of thing requires multiple years of study.


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## mediumaevum

EdwardBast said:


> My apologies. To give a good answer you will need to tell us what skills you currently have. Have you studied music theory? How well do you read music? Do you play an instrument? Also, we should know what style you want to learn. Do you want to be able to write fugues like Bach's? Or Beethoven's? Or Shostakovich's? Other?
> 
> Generally, this sort of thing requires multiple years of study.


To answer your question on my skills, this is the best piece I have composed so far:





I know little to no music theory.

I have difficulty reading sheet music. I can't play an instrument (I play on keyboard, but not MIDI-keyboard, but the keyboard I'm typing this with).

I'm interested in Renaissance style and classical pieces.


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## Johann Sebastian Bach

OK - so you're serious. Beware some technical vocab below.

So - write your tune, making it just 4 bars long in 4/4 time and transposed into C major (this just makes it easier to describe). Call that the Soprano part and bars 1-4.
Then, transpose the tune down a perfect 5th and write that in the 2nd (the Alto) part in bars 5 - 8.
Then write something in the Soprano part in bars 5-8 which fits with the Alto part. This is the countersubject.
In bar 9, write the theme an octave lower in the tenor part, followed by the countersubject, which you may need to adapt if sounds naff. Copy the countersubject into the alto part in bars 5 - 9. Write something in the alto part which fits and call this the C/c subject.
In bar 13, write the theme in the fourth part (the bass) an octave and a perfect fifth lower (or 8ve+ p.5th) than its original iteration 
and then extrapolate the above in all four parts over 128 bars with modulations and inversions and stretto (see Wiki).

You then have the beginnings of a fugue and will want to start again... and again... and again because you realise that the transpositions of the subject and/or countersubject don't work against the other.

I don't mean to sound glib - I'm a professional musician (conductor and composer of 40 years standing) - but your question is as naive as requesting a DIY guide to brain surgery. Find a teacher, who will then tell you it takes years to write basic 4-part fugues

You may be better off writing music which is less formal, or deciding that the "rules" of fugue writing aren't for you.


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## Larkenfield

mediumaevum said:


> To answer your question on my skills, this is the best piece I have composed so far:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know little to no music theory.
> 
> I have difficulty reading sheet music. I can't play an instrument (I play on keyboard, but not MIDI-keyboard, but the keyboard I'm typing this with).
> 
> I'm interested in Renaissance style and classical pieces.


 Hi. I like some of the pieces you posted on YouTube. You seem to have a real feel for the medieval or the Renaissance. It sounds like there's talent here. Congratulations!

But speaking as a musician myself, please learn the grammar of music, including how to read music. Otherwise, you'll be trying to work out and compose everything in your head, and that's probably about as realistic as trying to hitch a ride on a rocketship to the moon. I doubt if even the masters of the fugue did that; they probably had to make a number of revisions _on paper_ to get it right.

Rather than trying to write a fugue at this stage of your life, perhaps it would be more profitable to study the principles of four-part madrigals and polyphony. Still, this does require that you have the ability to read music and notate it, or again, you will be forced to continue doing everything mostly by ear, and I doubt if you would ever be entirely satisfied with that.

Talent and inspiration is just not enough, because it will only carry you so far. There are certain principles that govern the organization of music, which means you probably have years of study ahead in order to develop your mastery. But do it. There's a baseball movie about talent, called _The Natural_. Talent was just not enough for the eventual hero... he had to mature and develop himself in order to finally succeed.


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## EdwardBast

You have innate ability and good skills with sound processing. But there is an enormous distance between doing what you did in A Knight's Courage and writing anything like a fugue or a renaissance motet in imitative style. Your piece embodies what passes for quasi-Renaissance style music in Hollywood or video games, but the style is nothing like the actual music of those eras. 

I agree with JS Bach above: If you want to be able to write fugues or Renaissance counterpoint like the old masters it is going to take careful study and years of practice. The chances of getting it done without a teacher are slim, and being able to read and analyze written music are going to be essential. You might need to change either your level of commitment or your goals.


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## Dumbo

My heart's with Medium. God bless him if he wants to skip a grade and try writing a fugue. If nothing e!se comes out of it, he'll be better able to appreciate Bach's music. He'll never match Bach's fugue writing skill, but then, who will? I don't understand all the discouraging statements about years of study. Composing even a lousy fugue is a useful experience.

Kudos to JSB, above, for actually trying to be helpful.

I'll try to add a fdw more handy Fugues For Dummie tips:

Design your countertheme so it has CONTRARY motion in the parts. When one theme is going downhill, make the other theme go uphill or just sideways. Whole books have been written saying little else but this.

(Cheating tip that may get me yelled at): Design your main fugue theme so it begins with long notes and ends with fast notes. In Schoenberg's Fundamentals of Composition, he refers to this cryptically as "the well known tendency towards smaller notes." Nobody knows what he meant by that, it seems, but it describes Bach very well. Why do this? So when parts overlap, they maintain their distinctness. 

Put a simple, short, and strong rhythmic figure somewhere in your theme. LikE... ga-DUMP! Or whatever. Don't elaborate or repeat it. It's for later use, especially near the end, when you can introduce a new bass countertheme based on the repeating figure. Listen to Bach for examples. He usually scavenges multiple rhythmic fragments this way, especially towards the end.

Last piece of advice: I suspect you have Sibelius or Finale or some other composing app. Try listening to a fugue that particularly spurs your imagination, and try writing it down,doing first one line, then another, without resorting to the written music, using just your ears. See how close you can get it. 

I suggest Bach's Little Fugue in G minor. (The first Bach fugue I can remember everhearing in my life, in grade school, and still dear to me). The Stokowski orchestrated version is available on Youtube. It's probably easier to work from than an organ version.

It won't match a Julliard education, but it will still teach you a hell of a lot.


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## JeffD

As to the original question, how to fugue ANY melody, I am not sure it can be done with ANY melody.

The best examples the melody is written for a fugue, I mean, a the melody is written so as to be "fugable". 

I don't think you can pick any melody, say a commercial jingle or something, and write an effective fugue for it.

Of course I could be wrong.


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## mikeh375

Not sure about that JeffD.
I suppose it depends on what language you are writing in. If you are not limited to common practice procedure in terms of harmony and structure then there is more freedom to be had in the way you treat a subject. In such a setting, the subject itself does not have to be completely amenable to a shape that implies double and triple counterpoint, have harmonic implications or be readily available for stretto. 
Of course, emancipation from any gravitational responsibility in a soundworld less reliant on tonal signifiers still has a need to be musical and sincere and as such automatic application of contrapuntal procedure irrespective of the outcome is not desirable either in my view. So careful judgement is still needed in a more expanded genre, but there is more flexibility in the treatment of a subject to be had. Add in a less restrictive barline and there is a lot of fun to be had.
Clearly though, if you want to write in a traditional style, the subject has to have latent tonal implications as well as rhythmic interest and conformity.

As for the OPs' request I can only say that there is no quick way. Fugue requires a deep understanding of harmony and counterpoint. Some things mercifully have to be learnt the hard way if they are to be done well. The formulas can be taught, the music cannot- you have to find that within, not on youtube.


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## KenOC

It has been speculated that the “Royal theme” that Bach was invited to write fugues on by Frederick the Great was purposely devised to resist fuguing and was possibly devised by Bach’s son CPE Bach, who was in Frederick’s employ. Nonetheless, old Bach was able to improvise fugues of up to five voices, but he had to beg off at six. The six-voice fugue, and other pieces based on the theme, were later submitted to Frederick as “A Musical Offering.”

By that time in Bach’s life, he was viewed in Frederick's court as little more than an outdated curiosity, something like we might see a performing seal today. It seems that Frederick never acknowledged Bach’s gift to him, much less thanked him for it.


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## BabyGiraffe

mikeh375 said:


> Not sure about that JeffD.
> 
> As for the OPs' request I can only say that there is no quick way. Fugue requires a deep understanding of harmony and counterpoint. Some things mercifully have to be learnt the hard way if they are to be done well. The formulas can be taught, the music cannot- you have to find that within, not on youtube.


Well, there is a quick way and it is the same way that Bach and other composers used - math and some basic music theory.
Sergey Taneev's "Convertible Counterpoint in the Strict Style" and "Doctrine of Canon" are avaliable for free from archive.org in English and Russian.

The ten volumes of "Musurgia Universalis" by Athanasius Kircher can be downloaded from IMSLP/Petrucci music library, but is written in latin. You can find there the matrices and sequences and the ways of using permutations to "generate" contrapuntal music.
The genius of Bach is a modern myth, his music is good, but there is a reason why his music sounds formulaic and mathy.


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## EdwardBast

BabyGiraffe said:


> Well, there is a quick way and it is the same way that Bach and other composers used - math and some basic music theory.
> Sergey Taneev's "Convertible Counterpoint in the Strict Style" and "Doctrine of Canon" are avaliable for free from archive.org in English and Russian.
> 
> The ten volumes of "Musurgia Universalis" by Athanasius Kircher can be downloaded from IMSLP/Petrucci music library, but is written in latin. You can find there the matrices and sequences and the ways of using permutations to "generate" contrapuntal music.
> The genius of Bach is a modern myth, his music is good, but there is a reason why his music sounds formulaic and mathy.


No, there isn't a quick way. Taneyev's treatises address advanced contrapuntal techniques and assume considerable prior study and practice. Have you ever tried to write invertible (the preferred modern term) counterpoint at the fifth or tenth? "Math and some basic music theory"? Please tell us what you think math has to do with Bach's counterpoint. The art of counterpoint as Bach practiced it has nothing to do with math and is 20 years of hard work beyond basic theory.


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## mikeh375

Controversial Babygiraffe..
And.....completely wrong. Apart from what Edward says above, with which I totally concur, if you cannot see and hear the perfect marriage of heart and intellect in Bachs' music then you probably do not know how hard it is to do. Yes, there are formulae and procedural practice but that is only the beginning. Try it if you haven't already, and see if you can reach the sublimity and inevitability of a Bach fugue.


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## pkoi

I think many advices here are worth considering and writing a fugue is a demanding task. I would add that if you want to write a tonal fugue, plan your theme so that it produces meaningful tonal processions in all the voices (soprano,alto,tenor,bass) and that it works both in major and minor. I would also start composing a fugue without counter-subject and just use the theme alongside freely operating voices that you get the idea on how the theme works in different voices. Later on try fugues with one or several counter-subjects. Also, start off with max.3 voices.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Write a melody in a piece of paper and then stick it in the back of a rabbit.


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## Guest

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Write a melody in a piece of paper and then stick it in the back of a rabbit.


That certainly sounds simple and straightforward.


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## Vasks

I missed this thread when it originally appeared. But it's very timely as a few amateur's have recently posted "fugues" on the Today's Composer forum and they ain't fugues at all. One was more of an exposition that petered out shortly thereafter and the other just kept repeating the subject untransposed for a minute. Hint: if your entire fugue is only a minute long and it's not a fast tempo piece, a fugue it was not.


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## spidersrepublic

Not every melody will make a good fugue. You could technically make a fugue with any melody, but its like saying you could make a meal with any piece of food - even if its roadkill or something less sanitary (In the Selous Scout training during the Rhodesian Bush Wars they were given no food for 4 days and then given a heavily rotten baboon.... more maggots than flesh... And yes they ate it after boiling it)

The point is some melodies are better suited to fugues than others. Eventually you develop an ear for what will make a good fugue subject - usually they outline 1 or two basic chords and stick well within the desired key and span no less than an octave. They should also contain "everything" the fugue needs. Because the fugue is generated from the subject, the subject needs to have a microcosmos of material that is in infant form and can be expanded upon throughout the fugue. Ideally a fugue subject should contain unique material that makes it stand out when played against counterpoint - something the ears will recognize through the texture.

I know you said you didn't want a PDF to look at, but this is the best way to learn how to write fugues. And here it is:

*Hugo Norden's Foundation Studies in Fugue*

This is the book I learned how to properly write fugues from and its very easy to grasp and quite short (only 44 pages). You can be up and writing basic fugues after only reading a few pages.


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## eugeneonagain

I think the best response to give anyone posting a question in this vein (_viz_., I want XYZ quickly and painlessly in one lesson and I have zero knowledge of music theory) is to be frank and disabuse them of the idea that there's some sort of _10 easy lessons_ approach that will solve it quickly.

No. It's a long road. Some will get down it faster than others, but it's never going to be a short-cut. The first stumbling block for someone who can't read/write music is that all the great examples you could look at and imitate to get going are themselves written in music notation! Of course your ears can help, I was copying and making pastiches of two-part inventions at the piano before I could effectively write notation and this sort of improvisation is actually part of the learning process, but at some point you'll want to write it down and nothing else has been devised which is quite as effective.

In fact for the theoretical side of writing counterpoint you need to be able to see a representation of the method and the rules, why and how they work; knowledge of which which has been passed on this way for centuries. Trying to audibly untangle a Bach fugue using just listening requires an extraordinary amount of skill. Assuming you can do this, what do you do with it? You have to discern and clarify some sort of repeatable method to represent what you've learned, otherwise it's pretty much useless.

A fugue is a fugue _because_ of the particular rules governing it, but to do something great with the rules you have to know them like the back of your hand.

Same goes for orchestration and composition. You have to both know what your doing and why you're doing it, then do it a lot.


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## eugeneonagain

spidersrepublic said:


> I know you said you didn't want a PDF to look at, but this is the best way to learn how to write fugues. And here it is:
> 
> *Hugo Norden's Foundation Studies in Fugue*
> 
> This is the book I learned how to properly write fugues from and its very easy to grasp and quite short (only 44 pages). You can be up and writing basic fugues after only reading a few pages.


This book is actually _82_ pages. I have a paper copy of it (library withdrawn stock). I don't believe that anyone without at least the rudiments of music theory will entirely benefit from it.


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## spidersrepublic

eugeneonagain said:


> This book is actually _82_ pages. I have a paper copy of it (library withdrawn stock). I don't believe that anyone without at least the rudiments of music theory will entirely benefit from it.


Right you are - the PDF version I have has 2 pages on each PDF page... whoops


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## eugeneonagain

I listened to your fugues though. They are very accomplished, so the book seems to have worked. I couldn't comment on the other thread (reduced privileges...).


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## spidersrepublic

eugeneonagain said:


> I listened to your fugues though. They are very accomplished, so the book seems to have worked. I couldn't comment on the other thread (reduced privileges...).


Thanks man, I still feel I have a lot of work to do on my fugues and I don't think I've written a really "good" one yet. But I'll keep chipping away at it throughout my life and maybe I'll get somewhere.
I always feel my harmony is too static compared to composers like Bach or Froberger so I really need to focus on more interesting harmony.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a nice summary:

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/tas3/fugueanatomy.html

Just follow those steps and voila, a fugue, but not necessarily a good one. Just like anyone can write a pop song.


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