# Romanticism and 19th Century ...



## That70sShowDude (May 5, 2010)

What are the romantic aspects of fantastic symphonies of Berlios?
Why is this piece the quintessential orchestral work of the 19th Century?

Explain.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

lol, do you have homework to do?


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## That70sShowDude (May 5, 2010)

No, it's not homework. My classes just ended. I was just curious what the answer to this was, because it was on my final and wanted to see if I got it basically correct.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

The quintessential orchestral piece of the 19th century? Ex-squeeze me?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Ravellian said:


> The quintessential orchestral piece of the 19th century? Ex-squeeze me?


I STAND FOR IT

I mean you, while saying what you wrote, are trying to stab portrait of Berlioz and I'm standing on your way and shield it with my own bread OCH ACH

I mean it is true statement.

That the piece is quintessential. SF. Yes. Indeed.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Berlioz _Symphonie fantastique_? Boring and bombastic. Fifth movement totally bombastic. Maybe I'm no fan of programme music.


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## Sorin Eushayson (May 10, 2009)

That70sShowDude said:


> What are the romantic aspects of fantastic symphonies of Berlios?
> Why is this piece the quintessential orchestral work of the 19th Century?
> 
> Explain.


I think that what everyone's trying to say is that, despite the bloviating by collegiate academics, there is no definitive answer. Like much else, music is a very subjective experience.

Personally, I can't stand Berlioz.


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## David58117 (Nov 5, 2009)

That70sShowDude said:


> No, it's not homework. My classes just ended. I was just curious what the answer to this was, because it was on my final and wanted to see if I got it basically correct.


What did you put as your answer?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

While Berlioz's _Symphonie Fantastique _was not the first "programmatic" symphony (the honour goes to Beethoven's 6th _'Pastoral'_), but it was this work that made the most impact. Particularly in it's autobiographical (combined with imagined) narrative & the use of a recurring theme (the idee fixe, later developed by Wagner as the leitmotif). The _Fantastique_ was written only a few years after the death of Beethoven, but these elements - and also the colourful, idiosyncratic orchestration - mark it as very different from what had gone before. I recently saw it live in concert here in Sydney & it was excellent. I think that everyone should see this work live before making some of the silly judgements that some have made above...


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## Falstaft (Mar 27, 2010)

Everything that Andre mentioned above is right on the money. Some additional aspects of the work that tend to fit broad definitions of Romanticism (if you'll permit this collegiate academic to bloviate a little) include

*The _literalism_ of Berlioz's style, not just in the form of a fairly explicit written program, but on the level of individual details such as the famous "head plop" seem to be somewhat unprecedented (though you could cite the bird calls and lightning strikes of Beethoven's 6th as precedents).

*The gleefully _macabre_ and _profane_ goings-on in the latter portions of the symphony, but most of all the Witches' Sabbath in the 5th movement. Such diabolism may have been somewhat passe already in literary spheres, but it was gaining ever more steam in music. Berlioz's chief model was likely the wonderful Wolf Glen Scene from Weber's prototypically romantic opera, _Die Freischutz_. More generally, the importation of techniques usually found only in the opera house is a major strain in the development of C19 program music.

*Also in the 5th movement, the quotation/desecration of the "Dies Irae" sequence melody partakes in the loose _Medievalism_ that was another romantic hallmark.

*The overt pastoralism of the 3rd movement is typical of a kind of _nature worship_ very common among the romantics, with symphonic precedence again (of course!) in Beethoven's 6th.

*The expansion of symphonic form itself, not just in terms of orchestration, but scope (5 movements alone is unprecedented AFAIK) puts it squarely in the tradition of swelling orchestral pieces ever bigger. To the point that Berlioz felt he needed to write a _sequel_ in the form of the pretty obscure Leilio a few years later that picks up where Fantastique leaves off.

*The harmonic vocabulary is full of audacious experimentation, which is quite the romantic preoccupation.

So like him or loathe him, Berlioz is a central figure in music history  Hope you did well on your exam, 70sShowDude!


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Andre said:


> While Berlioz's _Symphonie Fantastique _was not the first "programmatic" symphony (the honour goes to Beethoven's 6th _'Pastoral'_), but it was this work that made the most impact. Particularly in it's autobiographical (combined with imagined) narrative & the use of a recurring theme (the idee fixe, later developed by Wagner as the leitmotif). The _Fantastique_ was written only a few years after the death of Beethoven, but these elements - and also the colourful, idiosyncratic orchestration - mark it as very different from what had gone before. I recently saw it live in concert here in Sydney & it was excellent. I think that everyone should see this work live before making some of the silly judgements that some have made above...


But was Beethoven's 6th the first programmatic symphony? What about JH Knecht's symphony from 1784?

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Knecht-Justin-Heinrich.htm

Dittersdorf did symphonies based on themes from Ovid in the 1780s as well.


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