# Handel's Messiah--Dublin Version



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I am a big fan of Handel's Messiah and have several different copies including an earlier recording by The Sixteen, the Oxford all male recording, the Westenburg recording, along with some highlights sets. But I recently came across this recording of the Dublin Messiah. Now I don't know if it is the Dunedin Consort and it's small size (I think 13 total singers) or if it is the Dublin version of 1742 itself, but I find this a very beautiful Messiah and different in a way that I can't quite find words to describe, but it seems simpler in some ways, yet more beautiful, not quite as elaborate perhaps.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I purchased a cheap Naxos Dublin version years ago. I also prefer the smaller Messiahs to the larger ones that Handel revised for later performances.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I purchased a cheap Naxos Dublin version years ago. I also prefer the smaller Messiahs to the larger ones that Handel revised for later performances.


I read (somewhere) that Handel wanted to establish The Messiah as a non-church work, for monetary reasons. Be this true or be this false?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I read (somewhere) that Handel wanted to establish The Messiah as a non-church work, for monetary reasons. Be this true or be this false?


Handel was seriously 'big on the money,' -- growing up painfully hungry through much of childhood often having that effect on people, so I would not be surprised.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I read (somewhere) that Handel wanted to establish The Messiah as a non-church work, for monetary reasons. Be this true or be this false?


I think I have read something similar. The public wasn't all too happy about having such a sacred subject performed in a theatre.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I read (somewhere) that Handel wanted to establish The Messiah as a non-church work, for monetary reasons. Be this true or be this false?


If I recall it was premiered in a church, but only with because of special circumstances due to extreme reluctance on the part of the vicar of the church. Of course I could be talking out of my digital hat...


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

What I read was that in London it was not well received because the people felt that a sacred subject should not be presented as entertainment, but in Dublin it was well received, presumably the people there being more open to the entertainment aspect of sacred music.

Interesting there is a Naxos Dublin Messiah. I'll have to look it up. One reason I was onto The Sixteen was their small size but the Dunedin Consort is even smaller. Still a full and rich sound.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

TallPaul said:


> I am a big fan of Handel's Messiah and have several different copies including an earlier recording by The Sixteen, the Oxford all male recording, the Westenburg recording, along with some highlights sets. But I recently came across this recording of the Dublin Messiah. Now I don't know if it is the Dunedin Consort and it's small size (I think 13 total singers) or if it is the Dublin version of 1742 itself, but I find this a very beautiful Messiah and different in a way that I can't quite find words to describe, but it seems simpler in some ways, yet more beautiful, not quite as elaborate perhaps.


I like the look of this. It's even cheaper from amazon.uk but I'm rather ignorant about SACD. Can I play this on my PC/little CD player?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

sospiro said:


> I like the look of this. It's even cheaper from amazon.uk but I'm rather ignorant about SACD. Can I play this on my PC/little CD player?


It's listed as a _hybrid_ SACD. That means it has a Redbook CD layer. You can play it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

sospiro said:


> I like the look of this. It's even cheaper from amazon.uk but I'm rather ignorant about SACD. Can I play this on my PC/little CD player?


It is beautifully packaged in the cardboard case that opens threefold, with a nice booklet. Plays on my Windows Media Player, which is a pretty shabby utility. I just ripped it and burned to spare disks so i would not wear out the original. Have it in the car and on my MP3 player.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

TallPaul said:


> Interesting there is a Naxos Dublin Messiah. I'll have to look it up. One reason I was onto The Sixteen was their small size but the Dunedin Consort is even smaller. Still a full and rich sound.


 Only Naxos complete Messiah I am finding is the Oxford all male Messiah. I have it, it is Higginbottom and the Choir of New College Oxford. A beautiful Messiah but not the Dublin one. After Dublin it was performed in London and even Jenkens disapproved, then it was very sporadically performeed until about 10 years later when he started performing it at the Foundling Hospital. This Naxos Messiah is " the only modern re-construction of Handel's unique London performances in 1751, when he used boy treble voices not only for the choruses but for the arias as well." But he used a tenor for Rejoice Greatly! A nice variation at that!

I am not keen on male altos though, but then I am not all that keen on the alto voice at all. Very few female altos really work for me.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> It's listed as a _hybrid_ SACD. That means it has a Redbook CD layer. You can play it.


Thanks for the info.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

TallPaul said:


> It is beautifully packaged in the cardboard case that opens threefold, with a nice booklet. Plays on my Windows Media Player, which is a pretty shabby utility. I just ripped it and burned to spare disks so i would not wear out the original. Have it in the car and on my MP3 player.


Thanks.

I do very much the same. Rip to PC, back up on external hard drive, copy to mp3 player then copy to spare mp3 player. Original CD will only occasionally get played again.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is the Dublin Messiah I linked in first post. Booklet is tucked in middle between the two disks:









And here are my complete Messiah sets. The Westenburg is special because it was my first Messiah in the late 1980s and we spent a lot of time finding the right one. I still have it on vinyl in excellent condition:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

:tiphat:

That's a great collection TallPaul


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

TallPaul said:


> What I read was that in London it was not well received because the people felt that a sacred subject should not be presented as entertainment, but in Dublin it was well received, presumably the people there being more open to the entertainment aspect of sacred music...


That's the story in a nutshell, yes. My understanding is that in London its the church hierarchy (the clergy) who did not like the idea of laymen (musicians from outside the church) performing this work. Still, it did not take too long (a few years, I think) for it to become popular with the English as much as it originally was with the Irish.

There are at least 6 different versions of_ The Messiah_, from the small scale Dublin version to the larger 'mammoth' non-HIP versions (a classic recording of the big modern version is from the 1950's was by Sir Malcolm Sargent, but there have been others since). Like other works of this type - eg. Monteverdi's _Vespers_ - it is very adaptable, depending on how many musicians and choristers you have. The Dublin version is I think one voice per part. In recent years, its been performed more and more widely in Australia. Its been done in churches (as a concert).

The most popular version is the Novello version, which I think is like a composite version. In recent years Naxos have recorded a version for all male voices/choir.

A mammoth performance with something like 2000 musicians was done in Westminster Abbey on the occassion of a big anniversary of Handel's death. I think it was done for the 50th anniversary of his death, something like that. An engraving of that below:












> ...
> Interesting there is a Naxos Dublin Messiah. I'll have to look it up. One reason I was onto The Sixteen was their small size but the Dunedin Consort is even smaller. Still a full and rich sound.


I got a small version too, I think its the Dublin version, done by the Scholars Baroque Ensemble, on Naxos label.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

sospiro said:


> :tiphat:
> That's a great collection TallPaul


Thanks. I had the Pinnock performance, but sold it to my son when I got the Westenburg, thinking to keep it to one set, but Messiah is one of those works that you just can't have only one of. I also had another Sixteen Messiah that involved Koopman--think it was The Sixteen choir and Koopman conducting some other orchestra--, but I gave it to a pastor friend. Then there is a more recent Messiah by the Sixteen than the one I posted above.



Sid James said:


> I got a small version too, I think its the Dublin version, done by the Scholars Baroque Ensemble, on Naxos label.


 I have a recent NAXOs catalog and don't see it but a general Google search on NAXOS and MESSIAH reveals three other besides the Oxford Messiah I have, and including the Scholars Baroque Ensemble.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

TallPaul said:


> And here are my complete Messiah sets. The Westenburg is special because it was my first Messiah in the late 1980s and we spent a lot of time finding the right one. I still have it on vinyl in excellent condition:


Wow, this thread from back in the days I was Tall Paul. Just attended Messiah the other day so am going through my collection. Anyway, I sold the Sixteen Messiah set to a co worker as it was just not doing it for me. I retain the 1751 Version because it is unique (though I would be happy to sell it as I am not fond of counter tenors), I still love the Westenburg Messiah and the Dunedin Consort's Dublin Messiah. I added a live performance of Messiah by the Academic Choir and Orchestra or [Google Translated to English], conducted by Morten Topp:









I also added one sung in German (not Mozart's re-orchestration) particularly for the voice of Gundula Janowitz:









Yesterday I ordered a Messiah that is the rendition of the debut performance in London, quite different from your typical Messiah per this review. Here it is (excellent vocalists through and through):









Now to sit back and listen to them all!


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