# Romanticism vs Jazz?



## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

Two different periods, what do you think is the best? Do you see comparisons between the two? For me it is jazz


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

David OByrne said:


> Two different periods, what do you think is the best? Do you see comparisons between the two? For me it is jazz


I'm not sure if this thread is mocking me or not, but I'd really have to pull at strings to uncover similarities. Nothing comes quickly and easily to the mind, which is telling that there isn't much there to compare and contrast.


----------



## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm not sure if this thread is mocking me or not


 Are you saying that you are Czech composer? 

His thread game me the idea, I find interesting connections between the two, hmm


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

David OByrne said:


> Are you saying that you are Czech composer?
> 
> His thread game me the idea, I find interesting connections between the two, hmm


What are those connections?


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

One thing that comes to mind is the free spirit of Jazz musically, and the free spirit, emotionally, of romanticism, that I can see!


----------



## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Romanticisim!!!!


----------



## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

David OByrne said:


> I find interesting connections between the two, hmm


Recently I listened to Schumann's complete piano works, and I was often reminded of jazz. It's not about rhythm, but the harmonies are much closer to jazz compared with Classical era music. I believe modern jazz players, especially pianists, borrowed a lot from romantic composers.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

David OByrne said:


> Two different periods, what do you think is the best? Do you see comparisons between the two? For me it is jazz


Romanticism for sure, I can't see any comparison between those two ,


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

David OByrne said:


> Do you see comparisons between the two?


sure, there's a lot of romantic jazz.
This could be one of the greatest romantic lieders, altough written by a jazz composer, but the style is clearly romantic:


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

tortkis said:


> Recently I listened to Schumann's complete piano works, and I was often reminded of jazz. It's not about rhythm, but the harmonies are much closer to jazz compared with Classical era music. I believe modern jazz players, especially pianists, borrowed a lot from romantic composers.


exactly.
Thake this:





it's not difficult to hear the influence of romantic pianists (Chopin for instance)


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

David OByrne said:


> Two different periods, what do you think is the best? Do you see comparisons between the two? For me it is jazz


Do I see a comparison? _Yes I do,_ if one considers classical Romanticism as the subjective interpretative possibilities of rhythm, melody, and harmony... Jazz at its best (Bill Evans, Miles Davis, et alia) also has that freedom and personal subjectivity that explores those same possibilities. But rather than having everything written down, jazz explores the freedom of expression in the NOW through _improvisation_. Classical generally explores the freedom of _interpretation_ in the NOW within the _boundaries_ of the individual parts the composer has written out. I consider both genres complementary to each other and have greatly enjoyed a ton of both over the years, not only as a listener but as a classical and jazz musician (flute, clarinet, alto sax).:cheers:


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

A great deal of jazz, well into the 1960s is still fully exploring 'tonality' and extended tonality, so it has that in common with romanticism. 'Jazz' is a broad term though: what are you including? New Orleans jazz (Dixieland); big band; bebop....? They differ from one another.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

eugeneonagain said:


> A great deal of jazz, well into the 1960s is still fully exploring 'tonality' and extended tonality, so it has that in common with romanticism.


It's not just that, even because for many critics (like Boulez) the music of Schoenberg was still romantic. Romanticism was a lot about capturing the passion, the joy, the torment of soul, and a lot of jazz in a lot of subgenres has expressed this, from Ellington to Art Pepper to Coltrane.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Heck. A lot of Bach's dance movements "swing". Nice and easy and breezy. "Early jazz".


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Chopin <--> Keith Jarrett
Liszt <--> Cecil Taylor
Brahms <--> Thelonious Monk


----------



## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I did not know this is a contest. Are we going to keep score?


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Jazz has always seemed to me to be about other ideas and emotions as well, not just ones I associate with Romanticism and Tchaikovsky.

Jazz can be about "martini love" like Paul Desmond, spiritual and Eastern ideas (late Coltrane), virtuosity (Oscar Peterson, Clifford Brown), sexy saxophones, etc.

If jazz is romantic, it most likely and credibly has to be as translated through old standards, like "Tenderly" and "All the Things You Are," and songs like that.


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Eschbeg said:


> Chopin <--> Keith Jarrett
> Liszt <--> Cecil Taylor
> *Brahms <--> Thelonious Monk*


This one doesn't click with me at all. I've been listening to Monk for nearly thirty years and I hear or perceive no similarities with Brahms at all. If anyone is closer to modern music it is Monk.


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

eugeneonagain said:


> This one doesn't click with me at all. I've been listening to Monk for nearly thirty years and I hear or perceive no similarities with Brahms at all. If anyone is closer to modern music it is Monk.


What I hear in both of them is a fixation with short, often angular motifs, out of which larger units are built in mosaic-like fashion. (Plus many historians think of Brahms as the first truly modern composer, in ideology if not necessarily in style, so there's that too.)


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

eugeneonagain said:


> This one doesn't click with me at all. I've been listening to Monk for nearly thirty years and I hear or perceive no similarities with Brahms at all. If anyone is closer to modern music it is Monk.


yep, definitely Monk was one of the least romantic jazz musicians (besides maybe very few tunes like Dear Ruby or Round midnight), but a lot of his music is basically the opposite of romanticism. 
And I think that the comparison of Liszt and Cecil Taylor too is really forced. Taylor is basically the Jackson Pollock of jazz, dripping notes as the painter dripped colors. I don't hear anything romantic in his music.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Jazz has always seemed to me to be about other ideas and emotions as well, not just ones I associate with Romanticism and Tchaikovsky.
> 
> Jazz can be about "martini love" like Paul Desmond, spiritual and Eastern ideas (late Coltrane), virtuosity (Oscar Peterson, Clifford Brown), sexy saxophones, etc.
> 
> If jazz is romantic, it most likely and credibly has to be as translated through old standards, like "Tenderly" and "All the Things You Are," and songs like that.


I think that a lot of modern jazz could be romantic too


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

The bulk of Chet Baker's output is romantic and lyrical (a word he often used). Nearly all of Miles Davis's early albums (Young Man With a Horn etc) are romantic too.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

One thing that I think it's quite peculiar is that there's a lot of jazz using impressionist harmonies but with a romantic sensibility, while in classical music impressionism was more... different from the music of the previous period.


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

norman bates said:


> One thing that I think it's quite peculiar is that there's a lot of jazz using impressionist harmonies but with a romantic sensibility, while in classical music impressionism was more... different from the music of the previous period.


Yes. This is probably not related to romanticism, but one great early example of this is Bix Beiderbecke's _In A Mist_ for solo piano from 1927 (no less) which sounds both impressionistic and astonishingly like the bebop of Monk some 25-30 years later.


----------

