# Vaughan Williams' Pastoral Symphony: a forgotten masterpiece?



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Vaughan Williams completed his third symphony in 1921 - inspired by his experiences as a medical private in the first world war. He commented:

"It's really wartime music - a great deal of it incubated when I used to go up night after night in the ambulance wagon at Ecoivres and we went up a steep hill and there was wonderful Corot-like landscape in the sunset. It's not really lambkins frisking at all, as most people take for granted."

The trumpet solo in second movement was inspired by a certain wartime musician practising the last post (and getting it wrong).

It is rarely performed these days. Michael Kennedy explained: 'it requires superb playing and enlightened conducting if it is to create its special atmosphere.'

Incidentally, Peter Warlock's criticism ('all a bit too much like a cow looking over a gate') was with regard to Vaughan Williams in general; of the piece itself he said: 'a truly splendid work'.

Sir Adrian Boult and the New Philharmonic Orchestra.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Couldn't agree more JanxH.
The last mvt in particular moves me as much as the slow mvt. of his 5th. The mournful, haunting soprano, followed by a beautifully sedate, refined and emotive theme is lovely and has a particular and noble English sensibility about it.
I live in the uK countryside and often hear his modal parallel triads in my head.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

mikeh375 said:


> Couldn't agree more JanxH.
> The last mvt in particular moves me as much as the slow mvt. of his 5th. The mournful, haunting soprano, followed by a beautifully sedate, refined and emotive theme is lovely and has a particular and noble English sensibility about it.
> I live in the uK countryside and often hear his modal parallel triads in my head.


I think it's subtleties can be overlooked on the first few listens; I'm guilty myself. I particularly love the way it begins - one is immediately transported (well I am at least) to the countryside (in this case France). The yearning quality (as in The Lark Ascending) is never far away.

Apparently RVW specified either a tenor or oboe as an alternative to the soprano solo in the last movement.

EDIT: Clarinet rather than oboe!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

janxharris said:


> I think it's subtleties can be overlooked on the first few listens; I'm guilty myself. I particularly love the way it begins - one is immediately transported (well I am at least) to the countryside (in this case France). The yearning quality (as in The Lark Ascending) is never far away.
> 
> *Apparently RVW specified either a tenor or oboe as an alternative to the soprano solo in the last movement.*


In my score, the soprano solo is cued with a clarinet rather than oboe!!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

mikeh375 said:


> In my score, the soprano solo is cued with a clarinet rather than oboe!!


I think you must be right - I think I have misremembered. Thanks.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

It was my first VW symphony on CD back in the 80s. A beautiful introduction to one of my favourite composers.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

It's an excellent symphony and perhaps his best. I bought the André Previn/LSO CD with the 3rd and 4th symphonies for like $2, blind, not having heard any of the music, and I really enjoy both symphonies. I definitely hear a serious undercurrent of darkness through the whole thing. It's pastoral in the sense that Mahler's 6th is pastoral, more so than, say, Beethoven's 6th. 

I need to give it a listen again as it's been a few months.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

As an example of the interesting harmony RVW employs - in the second movement we an F minor string chord with a horn playing middle C to D to an A natural rather than an A flat - a beautiful clash that creates a certain atmosphere.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

One of my favourites ... but "forgotten masterpiece"? Who has forgotten it? Those who know and love VW will mstly know it and love it. Those who don't love VW probably won't like it, anyway.

And does it make a difference to the music whether or not we are aware of its war associations for VW? Is it the case, I wonder, that war music has more traction with the market than "pastoral symphonies"? Was the dismissal of VW's as "cow pat music" so damaging?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> One of my favourites ... but "forgotten masterpiece"? Who has forgotten it? Those who know and love VW will mstly know it and love it. Those who don't love VW probably won't like it, anyway.


Forgotten at the concert hall. Perhaps an indictment of current programming? Tons of the war horses at the expense of such works as this. Well, it's a shame to me.



> And does it make a difference to the music whether or not we are aware of its war associations for VW? Is it the case, I wonder, that war music has more traction with the market than "pastoral symphonies"? Was the dismissal of VW's as "cow pat music" so damaging?


I agree that we don't have to know its war associations to appreciate it.


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

If you mean forgotten by concert programmers I suppose a case could be made for that, though I'd say it wasn't forgotten so much as passed over for crowd pleasers like Lark Ascending. This work certainly isn't forgotten here, I must have 4 or 5 recordings of it and will put one on now. RVW is always a good way to start the day.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I do not have any issues with any of RVW's 9 syms...In the opening of the 3rd,,you can hear ideas which he will go on to bring forth in greater writing in sym 5,,also can hear bits of his Lark Ascending,,a work which I can't stand , not even 1 second worth. 
I think overall, Bryden Thomson has the finer set...and this opinion shows up on the price for the complete set, = prices stay high and are not coming down. as no one is willing to part with their set. 

Though in the 5th, Barbirolli/Philharmonia is very memorable and I might place it as the finest on record.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

paulbest said:


> I do not have any issues with any of RVW's 9 syms...In the opening of the 3rd,,you can hear ideas which he will go on to bring forth in greater writing in sym 5,,also can hear bits of his Lark Ascending,,a work which I can't stand , not even 1 second worth.
> I think overall, Bryden Thomson has the finer set...and this opinion shows up on the price for the complete set, = prices stay high and are not coming down. as no one is willing to part with their set.
> 
> Though in the 5th, Barbirolli/Philharmonia is very memorable and I might place it as the finest on record.


Curious your contrast in responses to the symphonies compared with The Lark Ascending.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

janxharris said:


> Forgotten at the concert hall. Perhaps an indictment of current programming? Tons of the war horses at the expense of such works as this. Well, it's a shame to me.
> 
> I agree that we don't have to know its war associations to appreciate it.


So much great, and really quite popular, music is rarely programmed. I don't get it but then I don't know how people choose which concerts to go to or even who it is that goes!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I think the Lark is equally as good as any of Ralph's symphonies.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

In my beginnings of classical music, I did like Lark,,,now after my experiences in 2nd Viennese , Shostakovich , others,,,many past greats , have,,well lets say the Lark is no longer flying for me. 
Its so minimal and predictive,,,,,heard it once, twice, GOT it, why a 3rd time? For what? 
Sure I know, the world thinks its a masterpiece. Might be held in such high esteem, But set against his syms? Its a *all too common work*. I hear it as his *lesser work*.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> So much great, and really quite popular, music is rarely programmed. I don't get it but then I don't know how people choose which concerts to go to or even who it is that goes!


I doubt that much popular music is rarely programmed. The RVW may be popular among classical aficionados, but your average classical concert goer probably is unfamiliar with any of his symphonies. And that's a shame. I've only ever heard the "London" and the 5th performed live - and both to smaller than average houses. For reasons that I just can't comprehend, composers like Vaughan Williams, Bruckner, even Sibelius are a turn off to many listeners. Maybe they don't want to think? Maybe it's been done, but I wish a major British orchestra would put on a 2-week Vaughan Williams Festival. But it wouldn't sell the tickets like two upcoming Mahler Festivals that are sold out.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

paulbest said:


> I do not have any issues with any of RVW's 9 syms...In the opening of the 3rd,,you can hear ideas which he will go on to bring forth in greater writing in sym 5,,also can hear bits of his Lark Ascending,,a work which I can't stand , not even 1 second worth.
> I think overall, Bryden Thomson has the finer set...and this opinion shows up on the price for the complete set, = prices stay high and are not coming down. as no one is willing to part with their set.
> 
> Though in the 5th, Barbirolli/Philharmonia is very memorable and I might place it as the finest on record.


Have you heard Manze's live account?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> I doubt that much popular music is rarely programmed. The RVW may be popular among classical aficionados, but your average classical concert goer probably is unfamiliar with any of his symphonies. And that's a shame. I've only ever heard the "London" and the 5th performed live - and both to smaller than average houses. For reasons that I just can't comprehend, composers like Vaughan Williams, Bruckner, even Sibelius are a turn off to many listeners. Maybe they don't want to think? Maybe it's been done, but I wish a major British orchestra would put on a 2-week Vaughan Williams Festival. But it wouldn't sell the tickets like two upcoming Mahler Festivals that are sold out.


I often ponder that the more a composer forges a unique path in music, the more he/she will meet with public resistance; unfamiliarity with a particular harmonic language perhaps being more difficult to appreciate.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

janxharris said:


> I often ponder that the more a composer forges a unique path in music, the more he/she will meet with public resistance; unfamiliarity with a particular harmonic language perhaps being more difficult to appreciate.


I'd agree totally with this. The more one understands the craft, the more one can dig deeper and if one is adventurous, find different avenues to explore. In a way, Babbitt's 'who cares if you listen' sometimes applies on such a journey. it's very easy and even seductive to wander far at times..


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> I doubt that much popular music is rarely programmed. The RVW may be popular among classical aficionados, but your average classical concert goer probably is unfamiliar with any of his symphonies. And that's a shame. I've only ever heard the "London" and the 5th performed live - and both to smaller than average houses. For reasons that I just can't comprehend, composers like Vaughan Williams, Bruckner, even Sibelius are a turn off to many listeners. Maybe they don't want to think? Maybe it's been done, but I wish a major British orchestra would put on a 2-week Vaughan Williams Festival. But it wouldn't sell the tickets like two upcoming Mahler Festivals that are sold out.


Agree, excellent observation. I can understand about Sibelius syms,,,they just don't hold my attention any longer..
His Kullervo I continue to love.

RVW may seem *out of date* among the younger crowds, who perhaps hear RVW syms as *old fashioned, too all too typical English sounding*….Aspects which I love about his syms. English pastoral textures are often found in his syms. Gorgeous and enchanting.

Mahler,,I have never in 35 yrs, developed any interest in his music. Its a complete mystery to me his continued, popularity.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

paulbest said:


> Agree, excellent observation. I can understand about Sibelius syms,,,they just don't hold my attention any longer..
> His Kullervo I continue to love.
> 
> RVW may seem *out of date* among the younger crowds, who perhaps hear RVW syms as *old fashioned, too all too typical English sounding*….Aspects which I love about his syms. English pastoral textures are often found in his syms. Gorgeous and enchanting.
> ...


Perhaps it will take the equivalent of a Bernstein to favour RVW's music as Leonard did with Mahler (who's music was neglect after his death in 1911).


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Haitink did a cycle, but I prefer Previn.
@janxharris, do you know the 5 Tudor Portraits?..more amazing and yet neglected music.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

mikeh375 said:


> Haitink did a cycle, but I prefer Previn.
> @janxharris, do you know the 5 Tudor Portraits?..more amazing and yet neglected music.


I don't - but will check them out. Thanks.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Was not aware Mahler's music was neglected, even *forgotten* after his death. 
For me, the greatest mystery in all classical music, is the Mahler fan club. Sizable group. 

, Mahler receives the 2nd most new topics here on TC, , Beethoven ranks always in 1st place.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

mikeh375 said:


> Haitink did a cycle, but I prefer Previn.
> @janxharris, do you know the 5 Tudor Portraits?..more amazing and yet neglected music.


Previn or Handley for me.
The 3rd Symphony does suffer from people (including some conductors, I fear) equating the word 'Pastoral' with little lambkins safely grazing etc. In the right hands, it's a magnificent requiem that never fails to bring a lump to my throat.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

To me, Vaughan Williams' Third Symphony is a close musical cousin to Patrick Hadley's ballad "The Trees So High." Hauntingly beautiful yet equally bleak, melancholic, and chilling. The music that conveys a wistful, often disturbing intensity.

I too have Bryden Thomson's Chandos recording and it is wonderfully rendered (with that appropriate sense of atmosphere and presence courtesy of the label).


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

paulbest said:


> Was not aware Mahler's music was neglected, even *forgotten* after his death.
> For me, the greatest mystery in all classical music, is the Mahler fan club. Sizable group.
> 
> , Mahler receives the 2nd most new topics here on TC, , Beethoven ranks always in 1st place.


Mahler was neglected in his own lifetime too (as a composer, of course he was a rock star conductor) and near forgotten after death. The only one conducting his works was Bruno Walter. And then of course the Nazis banned his music, which looked like the nail in the coffin, until the famous revival, spearheaded by Bernstein and others, which was a few decades later. Kind of an unlikely life cycle for a composer and his music.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

janxharris said:


> I often ponder that the more a composer forges a unique path in music, the more he/she will meet with public resistance; unfamiliarity with a particular harmonic language perhaps being more difficult to appreciate.


I quite agree, but then again, Stravinsky can be thought of as an exception (and people like Nielsen is getting to be more performed and accepted). Janacek is quite popular, as is, say, Martinu. Ives is no longer a stranger as was the case, say, 1980s and earlier? It just takes time and the right amount of advocacy (and push) for that to happen. Look at Weinberg and Gal.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Orfeo said:


> To me, Vaughan Williams' Third Symphony is a close musical cousin to Patrick Hadley's ballad "The Trees So High." Hauntingly beautiful yet equally bleak, melancholic, and chilling. The music that conveys a wistful, often disturbing intensity.
> 
> I too have Bryden Thomson's Chandos recording and it is wonderfully rendered (with that appropriate sense of atmosphere and presence courtesy of the label).


+10000000 Vaughan is GREAT composer. I simply love him.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Dimace said:


> +10000000 Vaughan is GREAT composer. I simply love him.


Me too (almost as much as I love Bax).


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Orfeo said:


> Me too (almost as much as I love *Bax*).


There's another great composer who is little known outside of record collectors. Just the orchestral sound of those symphonies, and most of his music, is so alluring and troubled. Given the number of superb recordings of his works, it's surprising that we don't hear it live in concert. I doubt that I'll ever hear a Bax symphony performed live.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I don't think it is forgotten. It was one of my introductory symphonies when getting into CM. I still think it is one of the best English symphonies and probably in my TOP20 among symphonies.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> There's another great composer who is little known outside of record collectors. Just the orchestral sound of those symphonies, and most of his music, is so alluring and troubled. Given the number of superb recordings of his works, it's surprising that we don't hear it live in concert. I doubt that I'll ever hear a Bax symphony performed live.


I'm with you. Even the BBC Proms do not feature his music much at all, let alone his symphonies. And that is interesting, because Bax was well represented during that annual event in the 1920s through the 1940s (then again, there was Sir Henry Wood, who advocated his music more than any other conductors during that time).


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Orfeo said:


> I'm with you. Even the BBC Proms do not feature his music much at all, let alone his symphonies. And that is interesting, because Bax was well represented during that annual event in the 1920s through the 1940s (then again, there was Sir Henry Wood, who advocated his music more than any other conductors during that time).


There are so many composers that have made great music. Bax gets played somewhat so he have some representation. It is impossible to let every good composers music be played often.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Sloe said:


> There are so many composers that have made great music. Bax gets played somewhat so he have some representation. It is impossible to let every good composers music be played often.


We could also ask why some get such large slices of the cake while recognised masterpieces (yes, it's subjective) go hungry.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Rubbra, Tubin, Lloyd ...


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Pat Fairlea said:


> Previn or Handley for me.
> The 3rd Symphony does suffer from people (including some conductors, I fear) *equating the word 'Pastoral' with little lambkins safely grazing etc.* In the right hands, it's a magnificent requiem that never fails to bring a lump to my throat.


Well you know, that _is_ what the word means.  Blame he who named it, not those who know their musical topics.


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## CrunchyFr0g (Jun 11, 2019)

This is one of my favourite symphonies by one of my favourite symphonists. Someone earlier talked about being transported by it. It has the same effect on me. My new go-to version is the LPO and Haitink.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

CrunchyFr0g said:


> This is one of my favourite symphonies by one of my favourite symphonists. Someone earlier talked about being transported by it. It has the same effect on me. My new go-to version is the LPO and Haitink.


LPO / Haitink 

It sounds great


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Anyone here heard the piece live? It's not on the programme for the Barbican (London) this year.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

janxharris said:


> Anyone here heard the piece live? It's not on the programme for the Barbican (London) this year.


Yes, many years ago with Leonard Slatkin and the San Francisco Symphony. I don't have a strong recollection of that concert.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Another "forgotten? By whom?" here, btw. Oh and what Dimace said here too!

I used to really dislike this work, and dismissed it as a dull stereotype of the English Cow-pat School. No wonder we're the Land without Music. I never did the same for similar (sic) pieces, like No.5, by the way.

It is one of those works that requires a single recording to make it click. Once that one is heard, all the others make sense. Here, it was the relatively new Hickox performance on Chandos. It emphasizes the symphonic. You then hear the piece as a proper symphony when you hear other performances, like Boult, Handley, Previn, the other VW God's. They put more emphasis on the mood, it needed Hickox for me to bang my head against the wall and quietly explain "structure"!

I think it's now my favourite VW piece. Music of numbness, dressed up as Pastoral.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Becca said:


> Yes, many years ago with Leonard Slatkin and the San Francisco Symphony. I don't have a strong recollection of that concert.


Slatkin's complete set of the Vaughan Williams Symphonies is actually really rather good, by the way (well, not bad for an American :lol::lol


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

CnC Bartok said:


> Another "forgotten? By whom?"


Concert hall programmers.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Vaughan Williams is rarely performed here in the states, period. My city's (major) orchestra is doing the Tallis Fantasia this upcoming season and I'm excited that we're getting that much. I don't think he is really recognized as the major composer that he is here. One thing to note is that my city's orchestra made a phenomenal recording of the Sea Symphony, by far the best of the few I've heard, but that was over 10 years ago. 

To sidetrack the thread a bit, why did Vaughan Williams develop that grandiose style for the first symphony only to never revisit it again (or did he...)? I think he made the right choice to start employing more subtlety, but it's curious. Maybe he was just going with the times.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

@flamencosketches, he did compose the Five tudor Portraits which are on a grand scale, chorus, soloists and full band, they are well worth a listen as there is some wonderful music there. Re the Sea Symphony, try as I might, I cannot get into Hanson's Sea Symphony as much as Vaughn Williams' and was wondering if that work is performed in the States often.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

mikeh375 said:


> @flamencosketches, he did compose the Five tudor Portraits which are on a grand scale, chorus, soloists and full band, they are well worth a listen as there is some wonderful music there. Re the Sea Symphony, try as I might, I cannot get into Hanson's Sea Symphony as much as Vaughn Williams' and was wondering if that work is performed in the States often.


As far as I know, that one is not programmed terribly much either, but I believe I have seen the name on a program at least once which is more than I can say for the RVW. American orchestras are not always good at programming American composers' works.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As far as I know, the only RVW work performed by the Berlin Philharmonic in the last 20 years is the Tallis Fantasia, and that was something of a special case as it was at a concert celebrating 50 years of the Philharmonie so they picked works that fit particularly well to the hall's acoustics. (They also did Berlioz' Grande symphonie funèbre et triomphale!)


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

My favorite of the Vaughan Williams Symphonies, and an enchanting work. My top choice is Haitink/London Philharmonic. I also enjoy Previn with the London Symphony.


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

I always wonder why RVW returns the beautiful woodwind figure that begins the work to end the third movement rather than at the conclusion of the work.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

David Phillips said:


> I always wonder why RVW returns the beautiful woodwind figure that begins the work to end the third movement rather than at the conclusion of the work.


Almost places the fourth movement outside of the rest of the music, doesn't it? As if it is supposed to be a new beginning. The use of a vocal soloist in this movement only also contributes to that feeling, IMO. I have my own thoughts about a kind of programmatic content here, but I will not project it onto the work and everyone else.


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2019)

For any of RVW's symphonies, I like English orchestras best of all, and none more so than for the Pastoral Symphony, which I find to be evocative of the English countryside, especially the early part of the work. 

I have two versions of this Symphony, one by Andrew Manze/Royal Liverpool PO and another by Mark Elder/Hallé. These are both very good orchestras and conductors, lest anyone might think that only London has the best orchestras. 

I'm aware that RVW is not so well liked in North America generally as in the UK. I suppose his general sound possibly isn't American enough. In the UK, RVW tends to be compared and contrasted with Elgar when discussions of major British composers come up in face to face discussion. For my money, I'm slightly more devoted to Elgar, but I do like them both.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Andrew Manze on RVW. He wasn't sure if he liked the pastoral....


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Halle - Sir Mark Elder - First Movement.


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2019)

Who says it's forgotten? I came appreciate the work fully upon hearing Previn's excellent recording.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Partita said:


> I'm aware that RVW is not so well liked in North America generally as in the UK. I suppose his general sound possibly isn't American enough. In the UK, RVW tends to be compared and contrasted with Elgar when discussions of major British composers come up in face to face discussion. For my money, I'm slightly more devoted to Elgar, but I do like them both.


Captivating, beautiful and wonderfully atmospheric, which is why I find so much of VW's music so satisfying. Not only my favorite among all British composers, but among the overwhelming majority of composers world wide.


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2019)

Haydn67 said:


> Captivating, beautiful and wonderfully atmospheric, which is why I find so much of VW's music so satisfying. Not only my favorite among all British composers, but among the overwhelming majority of composers world wide.


That's nice to hear.

Quite a few years ago I used to be active on another music forum, based in the USA. There was some interest in RVW among a few USA based members, but overall he didn't seem to be as highly rated as USA composers, like Ives and Copland. In the UK, of course, it's the other way around.

One member in particular was very keen on RVW. I remember having discussions with him, and a few others who joined in, over the relative merits of Elgar and RVW. I was somewhat surprised to find that many USA folk were not aware of Elgar's broad range of music, with many thinking he only wrote some catchy patriotic works that get performed at the last night of the Proms. I became a bit of bore telling them about all the other wonderful stuff he wrote.

Returning to RVW, yes indeed a wonderful composer. I can see myself becoming re-engaged with his work for the rest of this week.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/aug/11/symphony-guide-vaughan-williams-pastoral-symphony


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

VW may be more popular in America than the infrequent live programming of his works suggests. I've known a number of people who have a special love for him, and during my years in Boston and Seattle his symphonies seemed to be played on radio fairly often, with the 5th probably getting the most air time. Classical radio not being what it used to be, I can't say what the situation is now. VW may be quintessentially English, but maybe less parochially so than Elgar. 

I'm particularly fond of several of the symphonies and a number of other works, and consider the "Pastoral" one of his most beautiful inspirations. A delicate and haunting work - melancholy, not untroubled, yet deeply benign and comforting, evoking for me a vision of an England I never saw, and a longing for a vanished world whose existence I must nowadays take on faith.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Partita said:


> That's nice to hear.
> 
> Quite a few years ago I used to be active on another music forum, based in the USA. There was some interest in RVW among a few USA based members, but overall he didn't seem to be as highly rated as USA composers, like Ives and Copland. In the UK, of course, it's the other way around.
> 
> ...


I'm an American, and I share that perspective on Elgar with the USA folk you describe. In fact, knowing he wrote the "Pomp and Circumstance" graduation march makes it pretty hard for me to take him seriously as a composer :lol: What is something Elgar has written that is pretty decent?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Cello concerto
Cockaigne Overture
Froissart
Introduction and Allegro
Falstaff
Both symphonies
The other 4 Pomp and Circumstance marches (yes, there are 5!)

I haven't connected with the violin concerto but you should check that out
Personally I don't care for his big oratorios ... Gerontius etc., but many people love them.

If you haven't already, you absolutely should listen to Granville Bantock. Elgar described him as "the best of all of us". Start with the earlier two named symphonies ... Pagan and Hebridean.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Cello concerto
> Cockaigne Overture
> Froissart
> Introduction and Allegro
> ...


Don't forget _Sea Pictures_, one of his masterpieces. Janet Baker/Barbirolli is the classic recording.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> I'm an American, and I share that perspective on Elgar with the USA folk you describe. In fact, knowing he wrote the "Pomp and Circumstance" graduation march makes it pretty hard for me to take him seriously as a composer :lol: What is something Elgar has written that is pretty decent?


 Op 12 - Salut d'amour (Nigel Kennedy (violin), Peter Pettinger (piano), Steven Isserlis (cello))
Op 15 - Chanson de Nuit & Chanson de Matin (Nicholas Cleobury/Britten Sinfonia)
Op 19 - Froissart (John Barbirolli/Philharmonia)
Op 20 - Serenade for Strings (Richard Hickox/City of London Sinfonia)
Op 36 - Enigma Variations (Adrian Boult/LSO)
Op 37 - Sea Pictures (Janet Baker/John Barbirolli/LSO)
Op 39 - Pomp & Circumstance Marches (John Barbirolli/Philharmonia)
Op 40 - Cockainge Overture (John Barbirolli/Philharmonia)
Op 47 - Introduction & Allegro For Strings (John Barbirolli/Hallé Orchestra)
Op 50 - In the South (Neville Marriner/Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields)
Op 55 - Symphony No 1 (Adrian Boult/BBC SO)
Op 61 - Violin Concerto (Thomas Zehetmair (violin), Hallé Orchestra)
Op 62 - Symphony No 2 (Adrew Davis/BBC SO)
Op 68 - Falstaff (John Barbirolli/Halle Orchestra)
Op 70 - Sospiri (Nigel Kennedy (violin), Peter Pettinger (piano))
Op 80 - The Spirit of England (Richard Hickox/Felicity Lott (soprano), LSO))
Op 82 - Violin Sonata in E minor (Nigel Kennedy (violin), Peter Pettinger (piano))
Op 85 - Cello Concerto - (Truls Mørk (cello), City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra)

...........

As a starter, try the Op 82 Violin Sonata.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Who says it's forgotten? I came appreciate the work fully upon hearing Previn's excellent recording.


Forgotten at the concert hall - Peter Gillman says so writing in 'The Independent'.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Three more to add to Partitas list, all for chorus, soloists and orchestra and all superb, his mastery of orchestration evident as always.

The Apostles
The Kingdom
The Dream of Gerontius

I'm sure I read once that RVW met Elgar at a Three Choirs festival in England and although Elgar signalled a willingness to be on more friendly terms ("call me Teddy"), RVW couldn't bring himself to become so familiar, perhaps out of respect.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

David Phillips said:


> I always wonder why RVW returns the beautiful woodwind figure that begins the work to end the third movement rather than at the conclusion of the work.


I'm not hearing that.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Becca said:


> Cello concerto
> Cockaigne Overture
> Froissart
> Introduction and Allegro
> ...


I've never heard of Bantock. So he was an influence on Elgar and RVW, then?

I'll have to check out some of those works out over time. Not the first I've heard good things about his cello concerto so that's probably where I'll start.


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2019)

^I would say that if we're looking for other strong influences on both Elgar (1857-1934) and RVW (1872-1958) the most obvious candidates are Hubert Parry (1848-1918) and Charles Villiers Stanford (1852-1924).

I became interested in these two latter composers as a result of my enthusiasm for Elgar and RVW. I'm not going to run through all their main works, as it's easily done in other ways.

Suffice to say that Parry wrote several well-known hymns like "Jerusalem" and "I was Glad", the kind of material that appeals to the "Promenaders" on the last night. He also wrote several symphonies, one of which is entitled Symphony No 3 in C 'The English', which may help in understanding his general drift.

Stanford was Irish but educated at Cambridge, England and Leipzig. He wrote quite widely, with some motets, a clarinet concerto, various Irish Rhapsodies, and some Songs of the Sea. All of it is worth checking out.

It's quite easy to see Elgar and RVW being influenced by these composers, with their combination of romanticism, nationalist flare, and quasi-religious interests.

The only one of these 4 composers not to be "Knighted" was RVW. The others all were given knighthoods, and thus had "Sir" in front their names. In the case of RVW, he refused the offer of being knighted on at least two occasions. He did accept the "Order of Merit", which is a high distinction but it doesn't allow any prefix to the person's name. [I bet many people outside the UK become thoroughly confused about these weird titles].


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

flamencosketches said:


> I've never heard of Bantock. So he was an influence on Elgar and RVW, then?
> 
> I'll have to check out some of those works out over time. Not the first I've heard good things about his cello concerto so that's probably where I'll start.


Not on Elgar as Bantock was about 10 years younger than him, perhaps on RVW, although there is nothing specific that I know about it. Bantock is one of a group of composers (others include Tubin & Rubbra) who I think deserve being better known. Listen and form your own opinion.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

BUMP.

Shameless promotion of RVW's Third Symphony for those that aren't aware of it.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

janxharris said:


> BUMP.
> 
> Shameless promotion of RVW's Third Symphony for those that aren't aware of it.


Shameless indeed! Shame on you! :devil:

You mentioned a month or so ago that this work was forgotten mainly by concert programs, but I believe it has had a bit of a resurgence in recent years, especially here in the UK, and especially with the now-concluded WWI centenary commemorations. It was in a televised prom back in 1914, the trumpet/bugle solo was particularly poignant...

I would love to see another of RVW's war works, albeit a later one, given its due attention, and that's the cantata Dona Nobis Pacem. Immensely beautiful.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

If anyone is seriously thinking of looking into the wonderful music of Granville Bantock, (along with Bax, he's our tone poet!) there's a very good set of CDs done by Vernon Handley on the Hyperion label that is well worth acquiring:









I'd very strongly recommend the gorgeous Celtic Symphony, which will never get performed, anyone asking for six harps is simply ensuring financial ruin! Fifine at the Fair was a favourite of Thomas Beecham's, and is a very good piece as well.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Not so much Bantock for me although the Celtic sounds intriguing, but I really do need to listen to more Bax. I've heard the Colour symphony, the wonderful cello concerto and some other music for strings, all of which has told me he is definitely worth some time.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I think you might be muddling up Bax with Arthur Bliss?

Here's a YouTube Celtic live. Not as poignant and heart-rending as Handley, but I enjoyed seeing it, rather than just listening!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

oh good grief.... so I am....thanks CnC Bartok (duurrr) - mind half in a manuscript depressingly covered with more rubber marks than pencil scrawls, the other half procrastinating and thinking about opening some wine (when it's a respectable time of course). I'll have a listen to the Bantock link with a merlot and try to concentrate....


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

It is always a respectable time - providing that you are flexible with the time zone.

As to Bantock, I was listening to the Pagan Symphony last night, first time in quite a while. I know that Elgar thought very highly of Bantock, and even Sibelius dedicated his 3rd symphony to him, and I am reminded again as to why that was.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

mikeh375 said:


> oh good grief.... so I am....thanks CnC Bartok (duurrr) - mind half in a manuscript depressingly covered with more rubber marks than pencil scrawls, the other half procrastinating and thinking about opening some wine (when it's a respectable time of course). I'll have a listen to the Bantock link with a merlot and try to concentrate....


Golden rule with wine, must be after 6pm. Not necessarily what the clock says here in sunny Oxfordshire, but as long at it's after 6pm somewhere in the world you're fine. :angel:

I think with the Bantock, a 12-year old whisky might be more appropriate?


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Bantock - his Hebridean Symphony is one of my favorite orchestral "tone poems", it's like watching a movie about the sea, pirate ships etc... fabulous! Vernon Handley is genius!
Back on topic - I really should get the full RVW Handley boxset next!


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

It is a real shame that RVW is infrequently programmed here


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## ECraigR (Jun 25, 2019)

I like this shameless bump. I may fo listen to it right now, for the first time at that! (I think first time)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

ECraigR said:


> I like this shameless bump. I may fo listen to it right now, for the first time at that! (I think first time)


Sir Mark Elder / Halle.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Azol said:


> Bantock - his Hebridean Symphony is one of my favorite orchestral "tone poems", it's like watching a movie about the sea, pirate ships etc... fabulous! Vernon Handley is genius!
> Back on topic - I really should get the full RVW Handley boxset next!


Yes, do. Handley's RVW collection stands up well in comparison with e.g. Boult and Previn cycles. For the Pastoral Symphony, I think Previn gets the 'requiem' ambience more clearly, but Handley's is very impressive.


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