# Tchaikovsky



## ChamberNut

Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto, probably had been my favorite of his works up until last night.  

Not being familiar much with Tchaikovsky's symphonies, I went to a live performance last night, featuring Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 2 "Little Russian". WOW!!! It was amazing! I love that symphony, it has such an energy to it. I will indeed need to get this symphony into my collection soon.


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## Morigan

That's great ChamberNut! 

I personally love each one of Tchaikovsky's symphonies. It's a shame that the famous 4, 5 and 6 overshadow the first three... Although less mature, they still represent the composer expressing himself honestly.

Also, the VC is definitely my favourite concerto ever .


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## opus67

Master of melody and craftsman of catchy tunes, Tchaikovsky is certainly one of my favourites. He also wrote some of the best waltzes, IMHO.

Glad you had enjoyed the performance, Ray. His symphonies are a must



Morigan said:


> Also, the VC is definitely my favourite concerto ever .


Hear, hear. (well, almost) Although I wouldn't dare give the title of "Favourite Concerto Ever" to one particular work, it's definitely my favourite among violin concerti. It's the one that made me realise my liking for music from the Romantic era.


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## shorteybear

I absolutely agree, Tchaikovskiy has been my favourite for a long long time and is still leading. One of my favourite works is Tchaikovkiy's Piano Concerto No. 1 (performed by Evgenia Rubinova) - why by her? because I just happened to listen to the entire work when she was performing it (I think it was on Leeds International Piano Competition), and since then just fell in love with it.


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## Ephemerid

Tchaikovsky's _Serenade for Strings _is really great. I luvs it!


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## hawk

Ephemerid I concur with you. Serenade is the music that started my interest in classical...of course hearing/seeing it played live by the London Mozart Players whilst sitting two rows from the orchestra certainly influenced me. They could have been playing anything and I would have been hooked


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## EricIsAPolarBear

Love the 4,5,6 trio of symphonies as well as that first piano concerto.


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## YsayeOp.27#6

Morigan said:


> It's a shame that the famous 4, 5 and 6 overshadow the first three...


And all of them together overshadow the fantastic Orchestral Suites.


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## Rachovsky

There's no denying that Tchaikovsky was a great composer. For some reason I have an affinity towards Russian composers more so than other nationalities. Their music has a depth to it and their massive chords are so ornate. I love his 1812 Overture, Marche Slave, Piano Concerto No. 1, Swan Lake, The Nutcracker, etc., etc..


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## shorteybear

Rachovsky, what are some other Russian composers that you like? (i just realized that this is probably the wrong thread to ask you this, since its dedicated to Tchaikovsky...)


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## Edward Elgar

In my opinion, Tchaikovsky was one of the greatest tunesmiths of all time. He solved the mystery of what makes a good tune. The only area where he lacked was in the structure of music. That's why the ballet was the best medium he could have worked in because it's just a production line of tunes, one after the other.


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## World Violist

Ephemerid said:


> Tchaikovsky's _Serenade for Strings _is really great. I luvs it!


Do you have any idea just how hard that is to play, though?


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## Rondo

Symphony No. 6 and the _Romeo and Juliet Fantasy_ Overture. Great, great stuff!!


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## BuddhaBandit

shorteybear said:


> One of my favourite works is Tchaikovkiy's Piano Concerto No. 1 (performed by Evgenia Rubinova).


That is my favorite Tchaikovsky piece, but I love the triumphant Horowitz version. I'll have to check out the Rubinova, though...

I figured out the chords and the "big tune" of the opening part a couple years ago and used to play along with the recording... until the piano solo, of course


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## shsherm

I have heard Dmitri Hvorovstovsky sing songs written by Tchaikovsky in recital. Tcaikovsky's personal favorite was "Souvenier of Florence" which is a chamber work and is quite beautiful. He also wrote several operas of which I have seen "Queen Of Spades" by The Dallas Opera and listened to "Eugen Onegin" by the Met. While not all of his music was great, his best works hold their own with any composer. He may have written the finest melodies of all. He wrote many works which are not performed often but many of these are excellent.


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## Edward Elgar

Rondo said:


> Symphony No. 6 and the _Romeo and Juliet Fantasy_ Overture. Great, great stuff!!


The overture and the first mvt of the 6th are quite similar in form and mood. You could pass them off for each other respectively. Just a thought!


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## Rondo

Yes, they are, although Ive never made that connection. Sporadic climaxes and a very memorable Romantic theme played throughout. Those pieces, along with the Pno Concerto, are why I like Tchaikovsky!


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## Cyclops

I have all his symphonies now(need a decent 4 & 5 tho). For years I only had Pathetique,and then I got no. 4 as part of The Classical Collection,then No 5 free with BBCMusic magazine. I then got a 2 CD Philips Classical set of 1-3.
The Little Russian is special!


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## Celloman

My favorite is Symphony #6. So dark and brooding. It's very unique among Tschaikowsky's own works.
And my least favorite...The Nutcracker. Tschaikowsky didn't like it, either. I think it's a pity that this ballet is more famous than the rest of his works. Oh, well.


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## Cyclops

Oh I like the Nutcracker, and have the complete work on one disk.


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## Kezza

My orchestra is currently playing Tchaik 5 and it's so much fun. Got to love the fff markings!
It's a pity we're only a small community orchestra and some of our players aren't very good. But we still go ok. Also that orchestra can't afford enough timps atm.

My girlfriend has played some of his violin concerto and I instantly fell in love it. When she was plying the second movement I instantly fell in love with this man  how good it would be to write such amazing music for such a beautiful instrument.

And also everything else he writes too is pretty fantastic just too much to say.


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## World Violist

Why isn't the "Winter Dreams" first symphony played far more often??? It's great!

Huh, forget fff markings in Tchaikovsky's fifth: what about the pppppp markings in the sixth? Yes, there really are six "p"'s in the scoring sometimes. It's great. INTENSE!


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## R-F

The first time I heard Tchaichovsky's 6th made me feel certain depth of sadness music has never before made me feel. You've got to be a good composer if you can do that.


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## BuddhaBandit

> need a decent 4 & 5 tho


You can't beat Mariss Jansons with the Oslo Philharmonic.



> Why isn't the "Winter Dreams" first symphony played far more often??? It's great!


It' seems to have gotten a lot more notice recently, as I've heard it on 90.1 (my local classical station) a couple times in the past week or so. I have a great recording of it with Michael Tilson Thomas (coupled with Debussy's Images, which is the reason I bought the disc).


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## World Violist

That's an interesting coupling! Where did you get that one?

I bet the only reason (a very unjustified one at that) that Tchaikovsky's symphonies 1-3 aren't played way more often is because they're more classical with their restraint and that they don't quite measure up to the last three. I mean, come ON, it's the 21st century!!!

[Short] Rant over.


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## marie

I feel that I've heard of his Violin Concerto like hundreds times but have never felt bored. I also love many of his ballet music. I like him for being so romantic. I am glad that we have had such a great composer.


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## Conductor

Love his _Serenade for Strings_ and the _Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture_. He's really one of the greats.


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## ClasicalTB

"The Russian composer Tchaikovsky is surely not an ordinary talent, but rather an inflated one, with a genius-obsession without discrimination or taste. Such is also his latest, long and pretentious Violin Concerto. For a while it moves soberly, musically, and not without spirit. But soon vulgarity gains the upper hand, and asserts itself to the end of the first movement. The violin is no longed played; it is beaten black and blue. The Adagio is again on its best behavior, to pacify and to win us. But it soon breaks off to make way for a finale that transfers us to a brutal and wretched jollity of a Russian holiday. We see plainly the savage vulgar faces, we hear curses, we smell vodka... Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto gives us for the first time the hideous notion that there can be music that stinks to the ear." 

Eduard Hanslick, the most influential of Viennese critics


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## soundandfury

Any music that can make you smell vodka must be powerfully written - the pinnacle of Romantic endeavour. Unless, of course, Hanslick was synesthetic (which I doubt).

Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto No. 1 was one of the first pieces that got me interested in classical music. It's just so - well, clever, is the only way I can put it.


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## Christi

Ephemerid said:


> Tchaikovsky's _Serenade for Strings _is really great.* I luvs it!


Is that soft, relaxing music ???


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## Sid James

Celloman said:


> My favorite is Symphony #6. So dark and brooding. It's very unique among Tschaikowsky's own works.
> And my least favorite...The Nutcracker. Tschaikowsky didn't like it, either. I think it's a pity that this ballet is more famous than the rest of his works. Oh, well.





R-F said:


> The first time I heard Tchaichovsky's 6th made me feel certain depth of sadness music has never before made me feel.


I agree that the _*Pathetique*_ symphony a very profound piece, & also very autobiographical. The score is one which couldn't have been faulted, even by composers like Mahler or Shostakovich. At the end, the music just sort of fades out, you expect more to come, but it's the end. I think it's one of the most interesting endings to any symphony I have heard.

I also like _*Symphony No. 2 'The Little Russian.'*_ It's a musical tour de force, the way he presents his themes shows how his music can provide much intellectual stimulus, not only emotional expression.

& his _*Piano Concerto No. 3*_, one of his final works, seems to point the way towards Bartok & Prokofiev - it is more percussive and rhythmic than the first two piano concertos.

An interesting fact is that overseas audiences (and critics like that horrible Brahmsian on steroids Hanslick above) found his music to be too Russian, whilst Russian composers like Balakirev criticised him for not being Russian enough...


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## Sid James

shsherm said:


> Tcaikovsky's personal favorite was "Souvenier of Florence" which is a chamber work and is quite beautiful...He may have written the finest melodies of all. He wrote many works which are not performed often but many of these are excellent.


I've recently acquired the _*Souvenir de Florence *_& I think that it is one of the great chamber works of it's time. A pleasure to listen to on many levels, musically, intellectually, emotionally. Like alot of his music.

Critics like that horrible Hanslick quoted above dismissed Tchaikovsky as nothing more than a good tunesmith. This reminds one of Cezanne's description of Monet. He said "Monet is nothing but an eye, but what an eye!" I think the same can be said of Tchaikovsky. His tunes overwhelm you, but there is more content in the heart of his music if you listen closely...


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## blays

> & his Piano Concerto No. 3, one of his final works, seems to point the way towards Bartok & Prokofiev - it is more percussive and rhythmic than the first two piano concertos.


I've always wanted to get my hands on a recording of the other 2 piano concertos. Although, if you say his third one resembles Prokofiev's style then I'm not so sure. His piano concerto's aren't really to my liking.
Another favorite of mine is his _The Seasons_ for piano.
And ofcourse his Violin Concerto I think is an all time favorite of many people!


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## Sid James

blays said:


> I've always wanted to get my hands on a recording of the other 2 piano concertos. Although, if you say his third one resembles Prokofiev's style then I'm not so sure. His piano concerto's aren't really to my liking.


Tchaikovsky's other two piano concertos still resemble the first one. They are virtuostic, dramatic & lyrical. So I would definitely recommend them if you enjoyed the first. Don't be scared of my comparison. I just think that the third sounds a bit more modern than especially the first, as if he was beginning to move into another direction. Incidentally, it consists of a single movement.


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## Conor71

I likes my Tchaikovsky  - Favourite works are the Piano Concerto No.1, Violin Concerto, Romeo & Juliet and Symphonies 5 & 6.


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## R-F

Tchaikovsky is one of those composers who has written works that please newcomers to classical music, while he still has works that are loved and respected by many classical music veterans. 
I may not love the 1812 overture as much as I did when I began listening to classical music, but I certainly still have a love for Tchaikovsky. I'm not surprised that his 6th Symphony, perhaps my favourite symphony, isn't performed regularly in public. It has huge emotional demands- afterall, when playing it you are, in a sense, recreating the agony of this man's life.


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## Mirror Image

Tchaikovsky's "Symphony No. 6" and his "Manfred Symphony" are outstanding. I also love "Sleeping Beauty," "Swan Lake," "Capriccio Italien," and "Marche Slave."


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## itywltmt

Nothing on this thread in over 2 years...

Pls visit my blog - I have a post relevant to Tchaikovsky's last 3 symphonies:

http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/itywltmt/197-itywltmts-tchaikovsky-festival.html


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## Stasou

Edward Elgar said:


> The only area where he lacked was in the structure of music.


Could you please explain this? And please don't take that as some spiteful, rhetorical question, I'm only curious.

I'm surprised that the Capriccio Italien has been mentioned so few times! It's one of my favorites of his symphonic works (other than his symphonies).


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## kv466

Ah, what can be said about the amazing composer...ya'll've just about said it all...so many great works!


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## Moscow-Mahler

> The only area where he lacked was in the structure of music.


He said it himself, by the way. But sometimes he "deconstructed" the structure consciously. The great example is the *first part of his Violin Concerto.*

As far as I know Tchaikovsky was a big fan of the "Weimar school", esp. Carl August Peter Cornelius (???). So, some aspects of his music, which some people (even in Russia) treats as "originally Russian" (very emotional, sometimes bombastic) maybe have roots in "Weimar school".


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## CaptainAzure

Symphony #6 for me in London on the 30th of this month


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## DavidMahler

Listening to this recording. Not sure what to make of it. Anyone else heard it and have an opinion?


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## TrazomGangflow

Tchaikovsky is a genious. If only his name were easier to spell...


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## regressivetransphobe

To add to the confusion, spellcheck always tells me it's wrong. When I spell it right. So I always spend a moment wondering if I'm dyslexic and accidentally flipped two letters around.


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## myaskovsky2002

TrazomGangflow said:


> Tchaikovsky is a genious. If only his name were easier to spell...


It is very easy...

Чайковский

Мартин


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## myaskovsky2002

DavidMahler said:


> Listening to this recording. Not sure what to make of it. Anyone else heard it and have an opinion?


He was Rumanian...He had some problems with women...

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergiu_Celibidache

Sincerely,

Martin


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## Taneyev

myaskovsky2002 said:


> It is very easy...
> 
> Чайковский
> 
> Мартин


Por suerte nos,los argentinos, en general no tenemos problemas para pronunciar apellidos extranjeros. No como los franceses que dicen "Shaikoskí" y "Mozárt", o los de habla inglesa que dicen cualquier cosa.


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## RachelW

Thank you Tchaikovsky for opening the door for me to other great classical musicians! I really love "Valse Sentimentale".


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## SoundWhirl

I have been listening to Tchaikovsky's music for a while now and I have been listening to him more than any other composers. I'm not sure why this is, his music just entrances me.


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## Taneyev

Because his music talks with your soul, directly.


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## TrazomGangflow

Tchaikovsky is well known to classical music lovers for many great works but he is also very well known to most people (whether they know it or not) for the 1812 overture and the Nutcracker. Tchaikovsky is definately an iconic composer for eveyone.


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## Vaneyes

Vivaldi, Haydn, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak are probably most newbies five favorite composers, and many years down the collecting and/or listening line, they'll still place very high.


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## TzarIvan

Thank you, Mr. Tschaikovsky, for your beautiful music, and your inspiring life. Thank you for brightening my day today with your "December" from the four seasons


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## Eviticus

Tchaikovsky RESUS required on this thread!

As sid's also mentioned the brilliant Souvenir de Florence sextet, i just wanted to plug 2 beautiful, heartfelt pieces that haven't been mentioned thus far.

Serenade Meloncholique





And his Nocturne for the Cello and orchestra


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## moody

Eviticus is right, here are some more works for your consideration, Most people are not even touching the depths of the man's genius.
The Seasons. Both the piano and orchestral versions.
Piano Concerto No.2--but only the original version (NOT the Siloti), you have a vitual cello concerto in the slow movt.
All his piano music--and there's a lot of it.
The Tempest, orchestral fantasy. same story as Shakespeares.
Suite No.4 Mozartiana, based on a theme by Gluck ,you will recognise the theme. ( I love Mozart as the musical Christ--Mozart.)
Suite No.1 in D Major, Op.43.
Incidental music to, Dmitri the Imposter.
Manfred Symphony ( with a part for a harmonium ),I have Toscanini doing this live in 1953.
Variationn On a Rococo Theme for cello and orch.
Concert Fantasy for Piano and Orch, Very virtuosic !
Operas: Eugene Onegin and The Queen of Spades---get the DVD's.
His songs---quite wonderful.
And now---Symphony No.7!! This is a reconstruction by S emyon Bogatyryev based on Tchaikovsky's rough sketches. His 3rd piano concerto was ,in fact, part of this ---without the piano ! Ormandy recorded it in 1962.


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## Eviticus

moody said:


> Eviticus is right, here are some more works for your consideration, Most people are not even touching the depths of the man's genius.
> The Seasons. Both the piano and orchestral versions.
> Piano Concerto No.2--but only the original version (NOT the Siloti), you have a vitual cello concerto in the slow movt.
> All his piano music--and there's a lot of it.
> The Tempest, orchestral fantasy. same story as Shakespeares.
> Suite No.4 Mozartiana, based on a theme by Gluck ,you will recognise the theme. ( I love Mozart as the musical Christ--Mozart.)
> Suite No.1 in D Major, Op.43.
> Incidental music to, Dmitri the Imposter.
> Manfred Symphony ( with a part for a harmonium ),I have Toscanini doing this live in 1953.
> Variationn On a Rococo Theme for cello and orch.
> Concert Fantasy for Piano and Orch, Very virtuosic !
> Operas: Eugene Onegin and The Queen of Spades---get the DVD's.
> His songs---quite wonderful.
> And now---Symphony No.7!! This is a reconstruction by S emyon Bogatyryev based on Tchaikovsky's rough sketches. His 3rd piano concerto was ,in fact, part of this ---without the piano ! Ormandy recorded it in 1962.


Plus the piano trio in A minor


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## moody

See my post above,,,of course it was Tchaikovsky who said : I love Mozart as the musical Christ.


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## Moscow-Mahler

Next friday I will be listening to the Second concerto with Denis Matsuev and Paavo Jarvi. I like the Second very much, but not the first (I have an old recording by Gilels on EMI).

I like his Violin concerto, and love his Sixth symphony and the Nutcracker. But I am not so sure about Eugene Onegin. Maybe, I do not like it at all.


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## Vaneyes

Thumbs up for PC1.


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## aphyrodite

I love Tchaikovsky's Piano Concertos! Currently listening to an all-time fav: No 1 piano orchestra for two in B flat minor, Op 23.


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## myaskovsky2002

Odnoposoff said:


> Por suerte nos,los argentinos, en general no tenemos problemas para pronunciar apellidos extranjeros. No como los franceses que dicen "Shaikoskí" y "Mozárt", o los de habla inglesa que dicen cualquier cosa.


Of course you are wrong. Mozart we pronunce in Argentina as Mosart...and should be pronounced Motsart.

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002

aphyrodite said:


> I love Tchaikovsky's Piano Concertos! Currently listening to an all-time fav: No 1 piano orchestra for two in B flat minor, Op 23.


for two...what?






LOL LOL

Martin


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## Eviticus

aphyrodite said:


> I love Tchaikovsky's Piano Concertos! Currently listening to an all-time fav: No 1 piano orchestra for two in B flat minor, Op 23.


Until being about the age of 23, i was of the belief that nothing could top Mozart concerto No.20 (never mind his concerto's 21 and 24) but then i discovered the 1st Tchaikovsky concerto in full. I've never looked back since as nothing even comes close for me. It's so lyrical, powerful, stirring and what people don't realise is just how well crafted an planned out it is.


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## Crudblud

Ol' Pyotr is the true waltz king.


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## aphyrodite

LOL seems like drowsy writing in the middle of the night brings out some lulz. pardon meh


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## Eviticus

Crudblud said:


> Ol' Pyotr is the true waltz king.


The waltz king, the ballet king, the overture king and the lieder king (okay, okay the last one was jo king).

Also produced the best piano concerto, one of the best violin concertos and one of the best symphonies ever too.

Hell - Tchaikovsky was just KING!


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## Taneyev

And a piano trio and string sextet that are some of the best of the 19Th. century.


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## Polednice

Eviticus said:


> The waltz king, the ballet king, the overture king and the lieder king (okay, okay the last one was jo king).
> 
> Also produced the best piano concerto, one of the best violin concertos and one of the best symphonies ever too.
> 
> Hell - Tchaikovsky was just KING!


Oh please, Tchaikovsky was obviously a Queen.


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## tdc

Eviticus said:


> The waltz king, the ballet king, the overture king and the lieder king (okay, okay the last one was jo king).
> 
> Also produced the best piano concerto, one of the best violin concertos and one of the best symphonies ever too.
> 
> Hell - Tchaikovsky was just KING!


I think you are getting a little carried away here...Tchaikovsky the best Piano Concerto?! I respectfully disagree. I can't say I see a good argument for Tchaikovsky having the _best_ work in any genre. Though in his better moments he _did_ have a certain very special something. I could _almost_ agree to the claim of ballet king if Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe wasn't so much better than any of Tchaikovsky's ballets.   :devil:


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## Polednice

tdc said:


> I can't say I see a good argument for Tchaikovsky having the _best_ work in any genre.


My reaction to this statement depends entirely upon whether you think _any_ composer can be said to have the best work in a genre.


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## myaskovsky2002

Eviticus said:


> The waltz king, the ballet king, the overture king and the lieder king (okay, okay the last one was jo king).
> 
> Also produced the best piano concerto, one of the best violin concertos and one of the best symphonies ever too.
> 
> Hell - Tchaikovsky was just KING!


You forget the opera king. He composed 10 beautiful operas.

Martin


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## moody

Eviticus said:


> The waltz king, the ballet king, the overture king and the lieder king (okay, okay the last one was jo king).
> 
> Also produced the best piano concerto, one of the best violin concertos and one of the best symphonies ever too.
> 
> Hell - Tchaikovsky was just KING!


This is all very well and what about Medtner ?


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## Eviticus

Polednice said:


> Oh please, Tchaikovsky was obviously a Queen.


haha i knew i'd invited this comment - the only thing i didn't know was who was going to say it. You get the prize Polednice - 10 dancing men bonus points!


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## Eviticus

tdc said:


> I think you are getting a little carried away here...Tchaikovsky the best Piano Concerto?! I respectfully disagree. I can't say I see a good argument for Tchaikovsky having the _best_ work in any genre. Though in his better moments he _did_ have a certain very special something. I could _almost_ agree to the claim of ballet king if Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe wasn't so much better than any of Tchaikovsky's ballets.   :devil:


When i say it's the best it was more a reference to my personal tastes really - mainly because i think it's so hard to truly pin down 'a best' or 'greatest' so i try not to really bother. However, as mentioned in other posts to rank a 'greatest' you would have to do it using weighting categories such as originality/innovations, influence, appeal etc (categories that i believe this concerto scores BIG in).

PS what's your favoured recording of Daphnis et Chloe?

*Moody *- which concerto are you referring to?


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## moody

Eviticus said:


> When i say it's the best it was more a reference to my personal tastes really - mainly because i think it's so hard to truly pin down 'a best' or 'greatest' so i try not to really bother. However, as mentioned in other posts to rank a 'greatest' you would have to do it using weighting categories such as originality/innovations, influence, appeal etc (categories that i believe this concerto scores BIG in).
> 
> PS what's your favoured recording of Daphnis et Chloe?
> 
> *Moody *- which concerto are you referring to?


Oh, I'm not really I don't know the guy but I knew that Clavichorder would want me to put a word in as he's not around.
I think that the best version of Daphnis and Chloe that I know of is the one by Monteaux. Ialso have a humdinger of Previn doing it live issued by the BBC.
By the way I thought you were quite clever with that answer, I mean changing it round to personal choice before the dark hordes come after you.


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## moody

Eviticus said:


> The waltz king, the ballet king, the overture king and the lieder king (okay, okay the last one was jo king).
> 
> Also produced the best piano concerto, one of the best violin concertos and one of the best symphonies ever too.
> 
> Hell - Tchaikovsky was just KING!


Who's this Jo King, good singer is she ? By the way lieder is German but Tchaikovsky's songs are a thing of wonder and he is a king of song and opera.


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## moody

Polednice said:


> Oh please, Tchaikovsky was obviously a Queen.


I suppose you had to go and say it didn't you "


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## Crudblud

moody said:


> ...the best version of Daphnis and Chloe that I know of is the one by Monteux.


Seconding this.


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## tdc

Eviticus said:


> PS what's your favoured recording of Daphnis et Chloe?


Well, I'd like to check out the Monteux which I haven't heard, but at the moment my favored recording is Tortelier's version.


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## myaskovsky2002

Eviticus said:


> haha i knew i'd invited this comment - the only thing i didn't know was who was going to say it. You get the prize Polednice - 10 dancing men bonus points!


I don't think that is important. By the way, Polednice told us he's also gay. This is not important at all. No bonus points! Just more respect. He was a great composer (Tchaikovsky), I don't mind his private life. And I presume he decided to die for people like you.

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002

Crudblud said:


> Seconding this.


Monteux's version is indeed great.

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002

Polednice said:


> Oh please, Tchaikovsky was obviously a Queen.


Inappropiate comment. I'm disappointed.

Martin


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## Eviticus

moody said:


> Who's this Jo King, good singer is she ? By the way lieder is German but Tchaikovsky's songs are a thing of wonder and he is a king of song and opera.


It was more a play on words, Moody. I know lieder is german hence the Jo King (as in joking).

You are right about finding the right recording and the difference between them especially with Ballet. I heard Daphnis and Chloe some years ago but i wasn't blown away. Perhaps it helps to watch. Fantastically orchestrated though from what i remember but that's Ravel all over. However, i love the big themes and in this area Ravel never matched Tchaikovsky - ever. In fact, no-one did.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

Cherevichki is awesome!

Martin


----------



## Eviticus

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I don't think that is important. By the way, Polednice told us he's also gay. This is not important at all. No bonus points! Just more respect. He was a great composer (Tchaikovsky), I don't mind his private life. And *I presume he decided to die for people like you.*
> 
> Martin


Very interesting you say this Martin. Do you believe the theory Tchaikovsky opted for suicide to maintain his standing and honour? I find this particular subject fascinating.

*Question to all Tchaikovsky fans:

Suicide or Accidental Death? *

_See below documentary if you are unfamiliar with a theory that has gained substantial strength over the years._


----------



## Polednice

Murder!!!!!!!


----------



## Eviticus

Polednice said:


> Murder!!!!!!!


Oops I forgot that option! :angel:

Pathetique does have some attributes of a requiem... Some people believe he wrote it as his own.


----------



## Taneyev

Rasputin poisoned him on orders from Zar Nicolai.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

I'm sure Ravel was gay too.

Martin


----------



## myaskovsky2002

Eviticus said:


> Very interesting you say this Martin. Do you believe the theory Tchaikovsky opted for suicide to maintain his standing and honour? I find this particular subject fascinating.
> 
> *Question to all Tchaikovsky fans:
> 
> Suicide or Accidental Death? *
> 
> _See below documentary if you are unfamiliar with a theory that has gained substantial strength over the years._


I have opened an entire thread about that. I read two books and saw a BBC movie on that matter and everything indicates that he was pushed to do that. Accidental death seems to be impossible. Even they say it was poison and not difteria....It was so fast. The theories seem to be reasonable. He drank poison, not water.










Martin


----------



## tdc

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I'm sure Ravel was gay too.
> 
> Martin


Actually, there is a lot more evidence to support the fact Ravel probably wasn't gay, as he had a probable secret relationship with a woman (based on eye-witness testimony) as well as was reported to visit female prostitutes (also based on eye witness testimony). The only piece of evidence I've ever heard of suggesting Ravel may have been gay were pieces of art work found in his home depicting gay sex, which is pretty weak evidence imo.


----------



## Polednice

tdc said:


> Actually, there is a lot more evidence to support the fact Ravel probably wasn't gay, as he had a probable secret relationship with a woman (based on eye-witness testimony) as well as was reported to visit female prostitutes (also based on eye witness testimony). The only piece of evidence I've ever heard of suggesting Ravel may have been gay were pieces of art work found in his home depicting gay sex, which is pretty weak evidence imo.


Bisexual, anyone?


----------



## Vaneyes




----------



## Eviticus

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I have opened an entire thread about that. I read two books and saw a BBC movie on that matter and everything indicates that he was pushed to do that. Accidental death seems to be impossible. Even they say it was poison and not difteria....It was so fast. The theories seem to be reasonable. He drank poison, not water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Martin


Ah i suspected there may have been a thread on it once as its too good a topic not to discuss but could not see it. I too believe its a reasonable theory but i'm still not sure if it is true. By all accounts Tchaikovsky was a gentleman and honour, status and legacy would have been incredibly important to him.

*tdc -* I don't know of any straight men that possess or would possess art depicting gay sex so on that basis i would say that is not weak evidence. I can certainly understand how it would have raised eyebrows and other things in the Ravel home...


----------



## tdc

^^^ :lol:

It is entirely possible Ravel was bi-sexual, however gay sex is very prevalent in different art forms (for example Greek mythology and artwork) that simply being in the possession of something like this isn't enough to prove anything in my mind. Until something more convincing surfaces based on what is actually known about his life my view is Ravel was most likely more interested in the opposite sex.

I have a lot of images of things in artwork and books in my house that are there strictly for entertainment and/or educational purposes and don't reflect anything about my personality or sexual preferences.

Based on the logic that this is strong evidence, should we assume then, that anyone who owns the film _Pulp Fiction_ is gay?


----------



## Polednice

tdc said:


> ^^^ :lol:
> 
> It is entirely possible Ravel was bi-sexual, however gay sex is very prevalent in different art forms (for example Greek mythology and artwork) that simply being in the possession of something like this isn't enough to prove anything in my mind. Until something more convincing surfaces based on what is actually known about his life my view is Ravel was most likely more interested in the opposite sex.
> 
> I have a lot of images of things in artwork and books in my house that are there strictly for entertainment and/or educational purposes and don't reflect anything about my personality or sexual preferences.
> 
> Based on the logic that this is strong evidence, should we assume then, that anyone who owns the film _Pulp Fiction_ is gay?


I do agree with you on this, but with composers, artists, or indeed any other people of public interest whose sex lives are shrouded in mystery, when we look into questions of sexuality I'm always aware of pointing out to people that - without evidence _either_ way - we should not adopt a stance of straight until proven gay, as though innocent until proven guilty, or as though heterosexuality ought to be considered a default.

One such example of this is the people who got angry over Dumbledore being gay.  Many people said, "Well it's not in the books, it's not canonical, so I'm not accepting it," but there's no Dumbledorian heterosexuality either, so it is rather telling of a reader's prejudices if they choose for homosexuality to be something that requires positive evidence before they change their outlook.

The whole question of composers' sexualities is a bit dubious anyway. There are arguments for it mattering for a biographical approach to music, as is undoubtedly the case with Tchaikovsky, but I don't think it matters so much with Ravel, so why bother asking the question?


----------



## Eviticus

tdc said:


> Based on the logic that this is strong evidence, should we assume then, that anyone who owns the film _Pulp Fiction_ is gay?


Interesting point... <hides pulp fiction behind broke back mountain>    Er... hows things?


----------



## Eviticus

Just to recommend the Tchaikovsky research site for those particularly interested in his life and his relations with his contemporaries.

I've always found his relationship with Brahms fascinating. I've attached a link below which i love - especially the story of Grieg, Brahms and Tchaikovsky having dinner together.

http://http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/people/brahms_johannes.html


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## TheWimp

the voyevoda overture is awesome, nice job tchaikovsky.


----------



## neoshredder

Enjoying his works right now with the Rise of the Masters Mp3 Download. He is a very melodic composer. Almost disney like. Not an insult.


----------



## violadude

neoshredder said:


> Enjoying his works right now with the Rise of the Masters Mp3 Download. He is a very melodic composer. Almost disney like. Not an insult.


I think you meant to say that Disney is almost Tchaikovsky-like, but a lot less umm genius.


----------



## Cnote11

Tchaikovsky, being a Russian, is by default a great composer. I would rank him as one of my favorites and I absolutely love what he brought to ballet.


----------



## Cnote11




----------



## violadude

Cnote11 said:


>


Omg that is....adorable lol. What book is that from?


----------



## Cnote11

I feel it is sad, because all the other composers they wrote about in the book got lovely triumphant biographies. The impression we get of Tchaikovsky is just "he was a sad man" and an allusion of his wild sweet orgies apparently. I believe this is from this book, by the way.










If you go into the "funny pictures" thread in the community forum you can see more pictures I posted from this book.


----------



## sheffmark

For me it's got to be the Swan Lake Suite!
Absolutely beautiful!


----------



## kv466

The more I hear his works, the more I love the his use of the violin.


----------



## Mesa

Heavily sucked in to Swan Lake at the moment.

More wonderful melodies than i could possibly write in 12 lifetimes.


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## Cnote11

More wonderful melodies than one could possibly write in 12 lifetimes. Don't sell just yourself short.


----------



## clavichorder

I just heard the 4th symphony live! What an awesome blowout! Probably one of the best things one could hear live.


----------



## TheComposer

There is so much I have to say about Tchaikovsky. So here is what i can fit into this post. 

Leonard Bernstein had once said that the the slow section of the first movement of the Pathétique was synonymous with the word melody. No doubt he was right. A master melodist and craftsman, whose music was unfortunately often passed of as lacking in thought and trivial, Tchaikovsky was seen as a weeping machine. But how trivial is the ending the the Pathétique? His harmonies are so intense and emotional...

I feel that Tchaikovsky such a competent composer that many of his more famous works such as the 1812 overture and the Ballets have overshadowed some of his lesser known/neglected/underrated yet fabulous works such as the Tempest Overture and the Manfred Symphony. As a regular concertgoer, I've heard the fourth, fifth and sixth symphonies, the Capriccio Italien and the violin concerto live. More of his other works like the earlier three symphonies should be more popular with the standard repertoire and played more often. Then, more people will realize the true genius of a composer Tchaikovsky was.


----------



## tahnak

I treat music as a medium of conversation between the created and the Creator. there are musicians who have carried more weight than Piotr Ilyich but I find Tchaikovsky the most personal, the most lyrical, the most melodic and the most intense. His music touched the deepest core of my heart since I was a child and I always feel the same way about him. I consider Pathetique as the most personally intense statement in symphonic form. I consider the main theme of the Swan Lake ballet from the I Act as a mystical spear that goes straight through your being.


----------



## sheffmark

I've listened to the Romeo and Juliet overture three times today-once at work on my works bus and twice while i've been at home!
What a beautiful piece of music!!
I also love Swan lake too.That has to be my favourite piece of classical music.
The man was a genius!!:tiphat:


----------



## tdc

I can easily get into stuff like Swan Lake, Nutcracker, and the Romeo and Juliet Overture...outside of his 'catchy pieces' I don't connect with his compositional style, and find his larger works kind of awkward at times (admittedly I think this about most Romantic period larger works). I do think there was often something very special and unique about his harmonic approach.


----------



## TheComposer

tdc said:


> I do think there was often something very special and unique about his harmonic approach.


Very true. When I turn on the radio at times and I hear a piece that's playing, I'm able to recognize if its Tchaikovsky straight from his unique harmonies.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Meaghan

clavichorder said:


> I just heard the 4th symphony live! What an awesome blowout! Probably one of the best things one could hear live.


It is a fun symphony! When I was in high school, I played the fourth movement in a transcription for wind ensemble. Imagine the crazy fast violin passage at the the beginning played by clarinets. (It was tricky. But not as tricky as when we played the last movement of Mahler 7.)


----------



## Lunasong

Very happy I just got a new piano book "The Seasons" by Tchaikovsky. It looks like just the right difficulty for me and will inspire me to learn a new piece every month.

from Wiki:

The Seasons was commenced shortly after the premiere of Tchaikovsky's First Piano Concerto, and continued while he was completing his first ballet, Swan Lake.
In 1875, Nikolay Matveyevich Bernard, the editor of the St. Petersburg music magazine Nouvellist, commissioned Tchaikovsky to write 12 short piano pieces, one for each month of the year. Bernard suggested a subtitle for each month's piece. Tchaikovsky accepted the commission and all of Bernard's subtitles, and in the December 1875 edition of the magazine, readers were promised a new Tchaikovsky piece each month throughout 1876. The January and February pieces were written in late 1875 and sent to Bernard in December, with a request for some feedback as to whether they were suitable, and if not, Tchaikovsky would rewrite February and ensure the remainder were in the style Bernard was after. March, April and May appear to have been composed separately; however the remaining seven pieces were all composed at the same time and written in the same copybook, and evidence suggests they were written between 22 April and 27 May. The orchestration of Swan Lake was finished by 22 April, leaving the composer free to focus on other music; and he left for abroad at the end of May. This seems to put the lie to Nikolai Kashkin's published version of events, which was that each month the composer would sit down to write a single piece, but only after being reminded to do so by his valet.
The epigraphs that appeared on publication of the pieces were chosen by Bernard, not by Tchaikovsky. In 1886 the publisher Jurgenson acquired the rights to The Seasons and the piece has been reprinted many times.
Tchaikovsky did not devote his most serious compositional efforts to these pieces; they were composed to order, and they were a way of supplementing his income. He saw the writing of music to a commission as just as valid as writing music from his own inner inspiration, however for the former he needed a definite plot or text, a time limit, and the promise of payment at the end. Most of the pieces were in simple ABA form, but each contains a minor melodic masterpiece.

The 12 pieces with their subtitles are:
*January: At the Fireside* _A little corner of peaceful bliss, the night dressed in twilight; the little fire is dying in the fireplace, and the candle has burned out. _
*February: Carnival* _At the lively Mardi Gras soon a large feast will overflow._ 
*March: Song of the Lark* _The field shimmering with flowers, the stars swirling in the heavens, the song of the lark fills the blue abyss._
*April: Snowdrop* _The blue, pure snowdrop-flower, and near it the last snowdrops. The last tears over past griefs, and first dreams of another happiness._
*May: Starlit Nights* _What a night! What bliss all about! I thank my native north country! From the kingdom of ice, snowstorms and snow, how fresh and clean May flies in!_
*June: Barcarolle* _Let us go to the shore; there the waves will kiss our legs. With mysterious sadness the stars will shine down on us._
*July: Song of the Reapers* _Move the shoulders, shake the arms! And the noon wind breathes in the face!_
*August: Harvest* _The harvest has grown, people in families cutting the tall rye down to the roots! Put together the haystacks, music screeching all night from the hauling carts._
*September: The Hunt* _It is time! The horns are sounding! The hunters in their hunting dress are mounted on their horses; in the early dawn the borzois [Russian wolfhounds] are jumping._
*October: Autumn Song* _The fall, falling down on our poor orchid, the yellow leaves are flying in the wind._
*November: Troika* _In your loneliness do not look at the road, and do not rush out after the troika. Suppress at once and forever the fear of longing in your heart._
*December: Christmas* _Once upon a Christmas night the girls were telling fortunes: taking their slippers off their feet and throwing them out the gate._


----------



## science

To be merged into this one: http://www.talkclassical.com/19786-tchaikovsky-greatness.html


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## Fintan

I envy you with the adventure of hearing Tchaikovsky's symphonies for the first time. I have listened to them and loved them for about sixty years now and they thrill me every time I hear them. His melodies are beautiful and his orchestration brilliant. Good luck with getting to know the symphonies.


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## maestro267

Tchaikovsky is the only composer whose entire symphony cycle I genuinely love from beginning to end. I believe the first three symphonies are at least as deserving of regular appearances in concert programmes as the last 3. And as for Manfred, I consider it one of the finest programme symphonies ever.


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## tahnak

maestro267 said:


> Tchaikovsky is the only composer whose entire symphony cycle I genuinely love from beginning to end. I believe the first three symphonies are at least as deserving of regular appearances in concert programmes as the last 3. And as for Manfred, I consider it one of the finest programme symphonies ever.


Yes! Manfred is superb as a symphony on its own.
His completed and revised seventh symphony in E Flat major is also worth listening to (with the Third Piano Concerto movement transcribed as the first movement). Ormandy and Philadelphia have performed very well.
Meanwhile, here is a brilliant edition of his E Minor Fifth by Leonard Bernstein and Boston


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## Ripvanwinkle

His symphonies are great as is his overtures and ballet music. One of the greatest melodists of all time. Is there anyone on earth who has not heard a Tchaikovsky melody? His first piano concerto was the theme to my parent's wedding.

RIP


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## Taneyev

Has anybody take the job of counting how many melodies he wrote?. I gess that the final sum should be in the order or hundreds, or maybe a thousend.


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## jani

His first piano concerto is OK, I like more of his Rome&julia. I love the stormy mode and the love theme!


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## powerbooks

Maybe because of my ethnicity, I am not very familiar with many Russian folk songs. But I am totally amazed by those melodies Tchaikovsky employed in his work, such as Symphony No. 2 ("Little Russia"), Symphony No. 4 (What a wild explosion of the final movement!). Even the Piano Concerto No. 1 is said to soaked with Russian's soul!


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## Ripvanwinkle

What about your least favorite Tchaikovsky? At the risk of opening myself to TC sharpshooters, it's the 1812 overture for me.


----------



## powerbooks

Ripvanwinkle said:


> What about your least favorite Tchaikovsky? At the risk of opening myself to TC sharpshooters, it's the 1812 overture for me.


March Slav is not that far behind. Basically, any piece with direct quote from a national anthem would be at risk.


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## myaskovsky2002

This thread makes me sick.

Martin


----------



## jani

myaskovsky2002 said:


> This thread makes me sick.
> 
> Martin


What?!?! Why?!? Because people have different musical tastes than you have?


----------



## myaskovsky2002

jani said:


> What?!?! Why?!? Because people have different musical tastes than you have?


Not at all. They are all novice here. Tchaikovsky composed 10 operas, 10 operas... They speak about the awful Nutcracker and swan lake, ballets that the composer confessed he composed to make some money, they are corny, simple. These compositions plus 1812 overture are irrelevant.
Of course I won't participate. *I know too well ALL Tchaikovsky's huge production.* I find this just not interesting. There were other threads in the past a bit more serious. I think the quality of talkclassical is in decline like everything else.

Martin


----------



## jani

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Not at all.


Ok, sorry i misunderstood you.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

jani said:


> Ok, sorry i misunderstood you.


It is ok. I am so old... That I had time to listen to many, many, many recordings... I went to Russia twice for more than a month, I saw many many operas there, of course a lot of Tchaikovsky, the composer Russians prefer by far! Loving Tchaikovsky doesn't mean lovings his ballets or JUST his wonderful symphonies, but his huge number of songs (5 CDs), his wonderful operas...




















If you are not familiar with this little stuff, repeat after me, Tchaikovsky? Nice to meet him.

Martin


----------



## Ripvanwinkle

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Not at all. They are all novice here. Tchaikovsky composed 10 operas, 10 operas... They speak about the awful Nutcracker and swan lake, ballets that the composer confessed he composed to make some money, they are corny, simple. These compositions plus 1812 overture are irrelevant.
> Of course I won't participate. *I know too well ALL Tchaikovsky's huge production.* I find this just not interesting. There were other threads in the past a bit more serious. I think the quality of talkclassical is in decline like everything else.
> 
> Martin


Please correct me if I'm wrong for I know you're a senior member (2000 posts) and I'm just a rookie (less than 20 posts) but I thought Talk Classical is a forum for people to express their musical tastes and opinions. If it is not their taste and opinions that are causing a decline in quality as well as making you sick, what is it then?


----------



## TheBamf

I really like his Violin Concerto in D major.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

Ripvanwinkle said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong for I know you're a senior member (2000 posts) and I'm just a rookie (less than 20 posts) but I thought Talk Classical is a forum for people to express their musical tastes and opinions. If it is not their taste and opinions that are causing a decline in quality as well as making you sick, what is it then?


I think you are right. I guess, it wasn't a good idea to come here. i thought I could contribute for you to better know the real Tchaikovsky... But...you are right, not here....

My perception is: here we come to learn and to share. You don't want to learn... Just to *Be* here. Your choice.
Junior once, junior always.

I quit.

Martin


----------



## Romantic Geek

Hey, if you don't like the Nutcracker, whatever...but the reason it is so successful (even today) is because people like it. And I'd like to think that it's not a bad thing that composers compose something for the masses. And for that reason, I will unabashedly think that the Nutcracker is a wonderful piece.


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## Taneyev

The beginning of Nutcracker is IMO the most charming and lovely ballet fragment I ever heard. Extraordinary.


----------



## Sonata

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Not at all. They are all novice here. Tchaikovsky composed 10 operas, 10 operas... They speak about the awful Nutcracker and swan lake, ballets that the composer confessed he composed to make some money, they are corny, simple. These compositions plus 1812 overture are irrelevant.
> Of course I won't participate. *I know too well ALL Tchaikovsky's huge production.* I find this just not interesting. There were other threads in the past a bit more serious. I think the quality of talkclassical is in decline like everything else.
> 
> Martin


This forum is called "TalkClassical" not "ClassicalMusicExperts" One does NOT need to hear a million recordings or the complete output of any single composer to enjoy conversing here. Instead of criticizing people why don't YOU open up a discussion about some of his other works that you treasure, and maybe even link to those specific recordings or sound samples?


----------



## myaskovsky2002

Sonata said:


> This forum is called "TalkClassical" not "ClassicalMusicExperts" One does NOT need to hear a million recordings or the complete output of any single composer to enjoy conversing here. Instead of criticizing people why don't YOU open up a discussion about some of his other works that you treasure, and maybe even link to those specific recordings or sound samples?


I did so, I have never said I was an expert, yes my little expertise is in Russian music and I read two big books about Tchaikovsky and I learned a lot. I like very much to read, and incidentaly, I learn. For me reading is essential. I read about what I have said, i do not want to denigrate anybody because we have different tastes, I accept that, I respect that. I cannot be respected if I can't offer the same respect. There is a whole thread about Tchaikovsky's operas, a very important part of his output. I read about his ballets he composed because he was broke... This was before the Baronese von Meck

À jamais.

Martin


----------



## Ramako

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Not at all. They are all novice here. Tchaikovsky composed 10 operas, 10 operas... They speak about the awful Nutcracker and swan lake, ballets that the composer confessed he composed to make some money, they are corny, simple. These compositions plus 1812 overture are irrelevant.


He also said he didn't like the 1812 because it was composed "without heart". You know what he did write with heart? Fatum. A dreadful overture - probably the worst I have ever heard by a serious composer that I like. It was only after it appeared in public that he changed his mind about it. So what if Tchaikovsky didn't like them? In fact, it may well be that these pieces (1812, swan lake etc.) are so good (yes good, not just popular) is just because he wrote them with detachment - not caring about them so intimately, giving him a more musical perspective. It's a thought anyway - I believe he disliked his fifth symphony for a period as well. He obviously had somewhat strange opinions on his own pieces in general.

Many good things have been written because people were broke. Beethoven's late sonatas (maybe quartets as well) were written "just for money". No-one is going to seriously say these are irrelevant compositions. Dostoevsky wrote Crime and Punishment while on the run from his debtors (sorry to deviate from music but it sprang to mind). He may have harnessed his genius for the purpose of making money, but does that make the pieces less legitimate than if he harnessed it for his personal expression? He wrote them either way - he is remembered for his great musical talents, not his sufferings. Mozart wrote lots (if not all) his pieces for money. Bach and Haydn wrote music because it was their job to do so. Music is to be judged on its artistic merit not the composer's perception of them - however interesting and important that may be.

I am writing in general defense of his 'popular' pieces. I could go on. I won't. I don't insult the pieces you put forward.


----------



## graaf

"Rookies", don't you worry - every generation of Talk Classical posters has to learn the hard way who is myaskovsky2002.


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## myaskovsky2002

From now on, I am not going to be here any more, Alleluya!

Прашаи

Мартин


----------



## mtmailey

I have downloaded his E FLAT symphony they call symphony 7-i like the fourth movement the rest i do not like that much.


----------



## Ravndal

I'm trying to find an orchestral piece in the same style of symphony 5&6 and Romeo And Juliet overture. Could somebody help me? I haven't heard enough from Tchaikovsky 

same length is also appreciated!


----------



## Vaneyes

Ravndal said:


> I'm trying to find an orchestral piece in the same style of symphony 5&6 and Romeo And Juliet overture. Could somebody help me? I haven't heard enough from Tchaikovsky
> 
> same length is also appreciated!


You may like to research Tchaikovsky/Mahler affinity. If so, I leave you two links to get you started.

http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/people/mahler_gustav.html

http://www.mahlerfest.org/mfXVIII/notes_musings.htm


----------



## Sonata

these look very interesting vaneyes! thanks for posting.


----------



## Ravndal

Vaneyes said:


> You may like to research Tchaikovsky/Mahler affinity. If so, I leave you two links to get you started.
> 
> http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/people/mahler_gustav.html
> 
> http://www.mahlerfest.org/mfXVIII/notes_musings.htm


Thanks a lot Vaneyes  Will take a look at it tomorrow!


----------



## Ravndal

Vaneyes said:


> You may like to research Tchaikovsky/Mahler affinity. If so, I leave you two links to get you started.
> 
> http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/people/mahler_gustav.html
> 
> http://www.mahlerfest.org/mfXVIII/notes_musings.htm


Well. I have heard trough Mahler's ninth a couple of times, but I'm not sure if i like it.. I find it hard to understand. But i will check out some of his other symphonies.


----------



## neoshredder

I don't usually listen to Romantic Era music. But when I do, I prefer Tchaikovsky.


----------



## Sonata

He does have some great melodies. I want to hum along with the melody in the allegro of his 6th symphony right now


----------



## Beagle

I have always wonderd why his first three symphonies are played so little in the uk. The last three have been churned out for years on the radio. I expect on a station i shall not mention they are one of there crowd pullers.


----------



## Tristan

Tchaikovsky--y u no write more ballets? <--Sorry for the meme reference.

Tchaikovsky said that he preferred writing opera to ballet and yet his operas largely go unperformed and his ballets are the most performed/popular ballets in the world (perhaps a bit arguably, but I'm not far off). I firmly believe that if Tchaikovsky had written 4 ballets, then they would be the _4_ most popular ballets in the world. Tchaikovsky is my all-time favorite composer and I am working on getting at least one recording of all his recorded works. So too bad for Undina


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Tristan said:


> Tchaikovsky--y u no write more ballets? <--Sorry for the meme reference.
> 
> Tchaikovsky said that he preferred writing opera to ballet and yet his operas largely go unperformed and his ballets are the most performed/popular ballets in the world (perhaps a bit arguably, but I'm not far off). I firmly believe that if Tchaikovsky had written 4 ballets, then they would be the _4_ most popular ballets in the world. Tchaikovsky is my all-time favorite composer and I am working on getting at least one recording of all his recorded works. So too bad for Undina


Opera>Ballet


----------



## Faell

I love Tchaikovsky's music too! I certainly recommend his piano trio (see video). It's a beautiful, but quiet long musical piece. Although it is less known as many of his other works like _Piano Concerto No. 1_, _Symphony No. 5_ and music for ballets as the _Nutcracker_, _The Swan Lake_ and _The Sleeping Beauty_. This piano trio is one of my favourite compositions of Tchaikovsky and the whole romantic period.


----------



## arpeggio

*Russian Opera in the West*



Tristan said:


> Tchaikovsky--y u no write more ballets? <--Sorry for the meme reference.
> 
> Tchaikovsky said that he preferred writing opera to ballet and yet his operas largely go unperformed and his ballets are the most performed/popular ballets in the world (perhaps a bit arguably, but I'm not far off). I firmly believe that if Tchaikovsky had written 4 ballets, then they would be the _4_ most popular ballets in the world. Tchaikovsky is my all-time favorite composer and I am working on getting at least one recording of all his recorded works. So too bad for Undina


You raise an interesting point. I am a big fan of Russian Opera. My favorites include Mussorgsky's _Boris Godunov_, Prokofiev's _The Fiery Angel_ and Tchaikovsky's _Eugene Onegin_. I have only seen two live productions from non-Russian companies: A Met production of _Eugene Onegin_ and a New York City Opera production of Rimsky-Korsakov's _The Golden Cockerel_, which was in English. I always wondered why Russian Opera is so infrequently performed in the West? Does anybody have any ideas why?


----------



## Tristan

I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that Russian is a particularly difficult language to pronounce for English-speakers; I can't imagine that it would be much easier to sing in.


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## Hausmusik

Question about the Pathetique. I love this symphony, with its 5/4 "limping waltz," its thrilling march, and of course the heartbreaking final movement. But I am always bothered by the feeling that the four movements don't necessarily hang together. In particular, what is that march doing there? Much as I love it, I have trouble seeing how it connects to the rest of the symphony. Not just in programmatic terms (per wiki, someone sees Mvmt. 3 as about "disappointments"---huh???) but simply in musical terms. What does that showstopping martial music have to do with the rest of the symphony?


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## Mahlerian

Hausmusik said:


> Question about the Pathetique. I love this symphony, with its 5/4 "limping waltz," its thrilling march, and of course the heartbreaking final movement. But I am always bothered by the feeling that the four movements don't necessarily hang together. In particular, what is that march doing there? Much as I love it, I have trouble seeing how it connects to the rest of the symphony. Not just in programmatic terms (per wiki, someone sees Mvmt. 3 as about "disappointments"---huh???) but simply in musical terms. What does that showstopping martial music have to do with the rest of the symphony?


In my opinion the 3rd movement march is supposed to have an off-kilter feel just the same way the 5/4 "waltz" does. It's too strident to be joyous or triumphant, and that skittering figure in the minor is never resolved, just violently pushed out of the way. The whole thing "clears the air" so to speak for the fourth movement, which is completely drained of energy.


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## Tristan

I've always felt the Pathetique is a rather "disjointed" symphony; I know some conductors will allow clapping after the 3rd movement--it does seem like a finale.


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## Crudblud

Hausmusik said:


> Question about the Pathetique. I love this symphony, with its 5/4 "limping waltz," its thrilling march, and of course the heartbreaking final movement. But I am always bothered by the feeling that the four movements don't necessarily hang together. In particular, what is that march doing there? Much as I love it, I have trouble seeing how it connect to the rest of the symphony. Not just in programmatic terms (per wiki, someone sees Mvmt. 3 as about "disappointments"---huh???) but simply in musical terms. What does that showstopping martial music have to do with the rest of the symphony?


I felt exactly that way the first time I heard it, and quite a few times after that, and I couldn't understand why someone would put that kind of music in the middle. But if we are to take the symphony as being about profound sadness, as most seem to concur, then it only makes sense to me that there should be some moment of false triumph, a spirited attempt to continue in spite of it all that ultimately fails in the end. But that's just my take on it, it could also be a joke on Tchaikovsky's part, I suppose, a sort of absurd humour, but that's a whole other thing that I haven't properly considered.


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## Mahlerian

Crudblud said:


> I felt exactly that way the first time I heard it, and quite a few times after that, and I couldn't understand why someone would put that kind of music in the middle. But if we are to take the symphony as being about profound sadness, as most seem to concur, then it only makes sense to me that there should be some moment of false triumph, a spirited attempt to continue in spite of it all that ultimately fails in the end. But that's just my take on it, it could also be a joke on Tchaikovsky's part, I suppose, a sort of absurd humour, but that's a whole other thing that I haven't properly considered.


If it's a joke, it's a very black joke, the kind that one makes in despair.


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## Ramako

I watched _Eugene Onegin_ on dvd for the first time last weekend and loved it - at least as good as his ballet music! I am really looking forward to watching _The Queen of Spades_ tomorrow. I just keep on finding more things of his that are brilliant!


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## Crudblud

Mahlerian said:


> If it's a joke, it's a very black joke, the kind that one makes in despair.


Then it would fit with the common interpretation, I think.


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## starthrower

Earlier today I grabbed the Abbado/CSO no.6 from B&N's bargain bin. I haven't listened to this symphony since the 80s.


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## Vaneyes

Mahler mixed it up, too. Threw a curve, when a fastball was expected. I like unpredictability in music, otherwise it's Johann Strauss, or York Bowen (test to see if HC reads this thread).


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## moody

Tristan said:


> I've always felt the Pathetique is a rather "disjointed" symphony; I know some conductors will allow clapping after the 3rd movement--it does seem like a finale.


Which conductors are you referring to--I have never heard of such savagery ?


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## Ramako

I watched The Queen of Spades. I didn't enjoy it as much as Eugene Onegin, but it was still very good - the production on the dvd was a little weird which didn't help.

Still, I look forward to getting more familiar with both these operas.


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## Mahlerian

moody said:


> Which conductors are you referring to--I have never heard of such savagery ?


It used to be common practice, at least. When Mahler conducted the New York Philharmonic in this work (which he didn't like, but was forced to program every season), he purposefully started the finale immediately after the third movement, before the audience could clap.


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## moody

Mahlerian said:


> It used to be common practice, at least. When Mahler conducted the New York Philharmonic in this work (which he didn't like, but was forced to program every season), he purposefully started the finale immediately after the third movement, before the audience could clap.


That's not what Tristan was saying,he means dropping the last movement--but maybe he will enlighten us as to what he does mean.


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## neoshredder

Still one of my favorites of the Romantic Era. Along with Sibelius and Dvorak. Just love that late Romantic Era bang to it.  Especially with Karajan.


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## Tristan

I didn't mean dropping the last movement, I meant allowing clapping after the 3rd and then proceeding with the 4th. But I should have said I had "heard" that, because that's all I meant. Very second-hand information. I can't pinpoint any examples.


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## Hausmusik

How does a conductor "allow" applause? Is a statement to that effect printed in the program?


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## Ramako

I have heard a live radio performance where the audience started clapping after the third movement but the conductor pressed straight on, cutting them off.

I think that clapping too soon after the end of that work is a travesty, though.


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## arpeggio

*Sixth Symphony and Third Movement*

I have been to one live performance of the _Sixth_ when I was in college. The concert was with the Orchestra de Paris. After the third movement the audience applauded and the conductor, I can not remember who is was, turned and acknowledged the audience. He did not make the orchestra stand until after the finale.


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## oogabooha

just re-read all of those letters to Bob


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## OboeKnight

Attended an All Tchaik concert a few weeks ago with Pathetique and Violin Concerto in D Major. Of course, the audience applauded after the third movement of Pathetique lol. Is it really that difficult to notice the four movements in the program?? Ugh. Anyway, the performance was awesome, and the violin soloist was incredible...only 18 years old!


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## Cheyenne

I heard the second symphony live, which was a first time, and probably for the better: its sheer joy was overwhelming, and that positive if a little shallow reaction my have been diminished considerable had I heard it before. My father loved it, far more so than the Mozart symphony and Beethoven piano concerto, likely because of its bombastic finale especially. I've tried to listen to it more on youtube, but it has failed to capture even a fraction of the feeling of hearing it live, just lacks the vivacity. Maybe the KCO (under John Eliot Gardiner) just played really well.


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## Celesta

Tchaikovsky has been my favorite composer since childhood and always will be. As a melodist he was a genius; a composer who could cut to the heart with radiant, profound tunes across many genres. He was also a great orchestrator. Tchaikovsky is for me amazing alone for how he totally revolutionized ballet music. In Swan Lake, The Sleeping Beauty and The Nutcracker, he brought all his talents to bear through melody and orchestration to turn ballet music into a serious art form.


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## Novelette

Oboeknight, it's been a few years since I've heard the Violin Concerto in concert.

I'm thinking about making a group of trips to attend concerts all over. If there's a performance of that concerto going on again anytime soon, I'll definitely consider going.


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## Donboy

In a TV interview, a famous conductor (I think it was Temirkanov) was describing the difference between the music of Tchaikovsky and Beethoven. "Beethoven communicates to the world...Tchaikovsky speaks directly to you." Give me Tchaikovsky any day.


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## mstar

Though the violin concerto isn't exactly my favorite, his second, fifth, and sixth symphonies are wonderful! Also, I was actually surprised that the first symphony is pretty good, and really rather fun to listen to at times. His third concerto, without the second and third movements, which HE DID NOT WRITE (it was originally published as a one-movement concerto), though described by some critics as "skeletal," has a certain aspect which appeals to me, and makes me think of Rachmaninov's "fifth concerto," which is sort of "derived" from his (Rach's) second symphony, and ironically, Rachmaninov's "fifth piano concerto" was not written by Rachmaninov! 
Both concertos seem to have a certain emptiness behind the beautiful expressiveness and wonderfulness (yes, oddly enough, wonderfulness is a word). Though Tchaikovsky's third concerto is not exactly a favorite. 
My all-time favorite work of Tchaikovsky's is the easily and often terribly misunderstood Symphony Pathetique - the sixth. Perhaps another thread is more relevant to my explaining why. I will look for that thread!


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## LouisMasterMusic

I love the way the Serenade begins, as well as its second movement. I cannot get enough of Symphony No.5 and the Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture is for me the greatest piece he ever wrote. I also really enjoy the second movement of the Pathetique. I enjoy the suites from his ballets (sometimes it's more than the suites: I love the Apotheosis from The Sleeping Beauty, the Mazurka from Swan Lake, and the Finale from it as well). Nothing really in the Nutcracker does Tchaikovsky for me apart from the Suite, which surprises me being that he is my favourite composer. The sounds of toy instruments in this music freaks me out. I hope I'm not being stupid. I own The Nutcracker on CD along with the Serenade, but I've never listened to it because I'd have to listen to the ballet first. Its the Mercury recording with Antal Dorati. Anyone know it?


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## LouisMasterMusic

I'll second to that; Tchaikovsky really knew how to write a good tune. Not so into The Nutcracker except the Suite, and I don't know the symphonies except the last three. 

Oh, and the point about the good tunes is no insult to Beethoven.


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## mstar

TCHAIKOVSKY I LOVE YOU(R WORKS) FOREVER BUT THE PROBLEM IS I LOVE INSULTING YOUR WORKS JUST AS MUCH IF NOT MORE THAN THEM.... 

Your overture (1812) stinks. 

(Hey, it said "leave your favorite a message"....)


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## Vaneyes

LouisMasterMusic said:


> I love the way the Serenade begins, as well as its second movement. I cannot get enough of Symphony No.5 and the *Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture is for me the greatest piece he ever wrote.* I also really enjoy the second movement of the Pathetique. I enjoy the suites from his ballets (sometimes it's more than the suites: I love the Apotheosis from The Sleeping Beauty, the Mazurka from Swan Lake, and the Finale from it as well). Nothing really in the Nutcracker does Tchaikovsky for me apart from the Suite, which surprises me being that he is my favourite composer. The sounds of toy instruments in this music freaks me out. I hope I'm not being stupid. I own The Nutcracker on CD along with the Serenade, but I've never listened to it because I'd have to listen to the ballet first. Its the Mercury recording with Antal Dorati. Anyone know it?


With that brilliant observation, we should see/hear more from you. :tiphat:


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## mstar

Vaneyes said:


> With that brilliant observation, we should see/hear more from you. :tiphat:


Hmm, I agree the love theme is excellent, though I feel that the work as a whole is not the greatest. I feel that the 5th Symphony's second movement is greater, though that is personal opinion. He brings out actual love better later in his life (the movement mentioned).

But Vaneyes, we should hear more from you as well.


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## Eviticus

To find Tchaikovsky on page 5 of this section was just not good enough. It's time for him to return with orchestral flare and mastery in a great mischievous form.


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## hpowders

Hey Pete. Everyone else is busy taking potshots at Lang Lang.
Is homosexuality allowed in heaven? Anything goes up there, or are there strict rules?


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## neoshredder

hpowders said:


> Hey Pete. Everyone else is busy taking potshots at Lang Lang.
> Is homosexuality allowed in heaven? Anything goes up there, or are there strict rules?


For those unfortunate to be homosexual, I would think God would understand. Assuming there is a God of course. I think religiion might not be the best thing to talk about here. But Tchaikovsky wrote some great music. It seems those who live a difficult life tend to write great music. Tchaikovsky an example of that.


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## Marschallin Blair

If a Platonic Form exists for the Pathetique, then this is it: the blending of the Berlin strings, the perfectly-poised brass, the gorgeously balanced sound. . . pure velvet.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Have recently 'gotten back' to Tchaikovsky through his great piano concerto in B-flat minor. An excellent work.


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## hpowders

No argument there!


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## mtmailey

I have listened to him since they had his music on cassette tapes in the 1990's never left PETER.Very hard not to love his music.


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## hpowders

Hey Peter. Now that you made it to the big show in the sky, did you ever actually meet Madame Von Meck face to face up there?

Also, you would be happy to know we've made a lot of progress on same sex marriage these days!


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## bassoon

> ...nevermind.


Miss Emily Litella


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## lupinix

yay Tchaikovsky, a great composer who has kind of made a bridge between more west-european and russian classical music imo. I love his 6th symphony, serenade melangolique, romeo and julliet, violin concerto, 5th symphony, 4th symphony, second and third (including andante & finale) piano concertos, 2nd string quartet and manfred symphony a lot!


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## Marschallin Blair

Yes, the Dorati/Mercury is quite good. I got it because I liked the way he did the Waltz of the Snowflakes.


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## Marschallin Blair

mstar said:


> Though the violin concerto isn't exactly my favorite, his second, fifth, and sixth symphonies are wonderful! Also, I was actually surprised that the first symphony is pretty good, and really rather fun to listen to at times. His third concerto, without the second and third movements, which HE DID NOT WRITE (it was originally published as a one-movement concerto), though described by some critics as "skeletal," has a certain aspect which appeals to me, and makes me think of Rachmaninov's "fifth concerto," which is sort of "derived" from his (Rach's) second symphony, and ironically, Rachmaninov's "fifth piano concerto" was not written by Rachmaninov!
> Both concertos seem to have a certain emptiness behind the beautiful expressiveness and wonderfulness (yes, oddly enough, wonderfulness is a word). Though Tchaikovsky's third concerto is not exactly a favorite.
> My all-time favorite work of Tchaikovsky's is the easily and often terribly misunderstood Symphony Pathetique - the sixth. Perhaps another thread is more relevant to my explaining why. I will look for that thread!


Pathetique!!!!! Yes. Yes. And YES!!

I value the Svetlanov for the blitzkrieging third movement:









And I cherish the early seventies Karajan/BPO EMI for its unrivaled elegance and nobility; and for its great recorded sound:


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## Marschallin Blair

Vaneyes said:


> With that brilliant observation, we should see/hear more from you. :tiphat:


Indeed. . . welcome to the drawing room, LouisMasterMusic.

Such great taste.


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## Itullian

Bernstein's last for me. I love the looooooooong last movement.


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## neoshredder

Marschallin Blair said:


> Indeed. . . welcome to the drawing room, LouisMasterMusic.
> 
> Such great taste.


I just had another one of my brilliant ideas. How about we all listen to some Tchaikovsky right now.


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## Marschallin Blair

Anyone heard the Haitink/Concertgebouw Tchaikovsky Symphonies. I bought the set just for that Fifth he did on Phillips back in 1975- for the recording quality and for the stately last movement. . . Well, the only other thing that resonates with me in the set is Haitink's "Winterdreams," (from 1979) which I'm listening to right now. 

I love his articulation of the delightful first movement more than my cherished 70's Karajan/BPO account (I never thought I'd say THAT )- and the recording QUALITY is fantastic: clear, defined, and separated textures; wonderfully-shimmering pianissimos as the beginning, great, bright brassy climaxes too.

A delight. . .

Your turn.


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## Itullian

I have all the Haitink RCO stuff on Philps.
I like his clear, transparent textures as well.
And the Philips recordings back then were wonders of richness and clarity.


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## Marschallin Blair

Itullian said:


> I have all the Haitink RCO stuff on Philps.
> I like his clear, transparent textures as well.
> And the Philips recordings back then were wonders of richness and clarity.


Hi Friend,

You have taste AND manners-- thank your mother for me. ;D

You're too kind. . .

Yeah, the Concertgebouw under Van Beinum, Haitink, and Ashkenazy is pure velvet; I love the precison playing of that orchestra and I love the Congertgebouw 'hall' (as opposed to the orchestra itself) that they do their recordings IN: EX-quisite sound.

I have the Haitink Bruckner set, and it has a late sixties Bruckner's Eighth (as opposed to the re-recording he did in 1980 with the Concertgebouw) that kicks ***. It's more of a 'Van Beinum' type of reading-- certainly in the last movement. You've got to hear it.

I like that you appreciate sound QUALITY- no one else in the forum seems to care for it as I do.


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## hpowders

My favorite Tchaikovsky moment will always be that achingly beautiful oboe solo that starts movement 2 of his fourth symphony.


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## Vaneyes

I'm somewhat surprised that Tom Service's "50 Underrated Symphonies" omitted BSO/MTT (DG, rec. 1970), as a suggested Tchaikovsky Symphony 1 recording. Not that I would politic for it, but it seems to always be mentioned when this topic arises.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to.../symphony-guide-tchaikovsky-first-tom-service


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## Marschallin Blair

Itullian said:


> I have all the Haitink RCO stuff on Philps.
> I like his clear, transparent textures as well.
> And the Philips recordings back then were wonders of richness and clarity.


Itullian, did you get a chance to try on that Bruckner 8, size Concertgebouw; on Philips from the late sixties that I was telling you about?-- The begining of the last movement!!!! Hell yeah! Knights' charge!!!


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## Itullian

Marschallin Blair said:


> Itullian, did you get a chance to try on that Bruckner 8, size Concertgebouw; on Philips from the late sixties that I was telling you about?-- The begining of the last movement!!!! Hell yeah! Knights' charge!!!


I will revisit that old friend tonight 
And probably a couple more from that wonderful set. 
Thanks for the inspiration. :tiphat:
Love those Haitink Philips recordings.


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## Marschallin Blair

Itullian said:


> I will revisit that old friend tonight
> And probably a couple more from that wonderful set.
> Thanks for the inspiration. :tiphat:
> Love those Haitink Philips recordings.


The sentiments are completely mutual; as are our elective affinities of Strauss and Bruckner. . . 'plashing' (as Henry James would say) in the sound world of RVW's Job right now. . . Did I just say "RVW's Job"?-- I meant to say, "His Eminence, RVW's Job."


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## MagneticGhost

As much as I love Tchaikovsky's orchestral music.
This is where it's been at for me for a couple of months now.









And I was lucky enough to pick up this Melodiya edition of the Liturgy in a 2nd hand shop at the weekend. So I can stop hammering Spotify for it. 
Glorious recording. I do love the Melodiya label. Used to have the complete Shostakovich Symphony cycle on Melodiya Vinyl - and I've not heard better.


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## hpowders

Hey Peter:

Your Fourth Symphony is a favorite of mine; especially fond of that meltingly beautiful oboe solo that opens movement 2.

Regards from the New World!
hpowders


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## Roi N

Ahh, Tchaikovsky... perhaps the most peculiar composer.
You want to classify him as a Romantic, but he is different. You want to classify him with the Russians of the time, but he's different. He's just too special to be classified with anyone. He's a stand-alone composer, for better or worse.
Now, this means that he has achieved things of a divine calibers, whilst also writing pieces that are bad to say at least. The first symphony is terrible. Just awful. But the first Piano concerto is amazing. His symphonic output is not on par with that of almost any great composer, but his three ballets are unmatched.
Oh, I almost forgot. His String Serenade is one of the most complete pieces ever composed.


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## hpowders

Well, from what I read, he worshipped Mozart, so maybe that's why you have trouble labeling him a pure Romantic.

Whatever. I love his fourth symphony.

His symphonic output, "not on par with that of almost any great composer" you say? I would put Tchaikovsky's 4th, 5th and 6th symphonies up against Brahms and Schumann any day. They are great masterpieces.


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## MagneticGhost

Roi N said:


> Ahh, Tchaikovsky... perhaps the most peculiar composer.
> You want to classify him as a Romantic, but he is different. You want to classify him with the Russians of the time, but he's different. He's just too special to be classified with anyone. He's a stand-alone composer, for better or worse.
> Now, this means that he has achieved things of a divine calibers, whilst also writing pieces that are bad to say at least. The first symphony is terrible. Just awful. But the first Piano concerto is amazing. His symphonic output is not on par with that of almost any great composer, but his three ballets are unmatched.
> Oh, I almost forgot. His String Serenade is one of the most complete pieces ever composed.


I was with you right up to the point you dissed his first symphony. That piece is chock full of fun and good tunes.


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## Eviticus

Roi N said:


> The first symphony is terrible. Just awful... His symphonic output is not on par with that of almost any great composer


I agree with almost everything you say bar the above. I don't believe it was that bad. Bad in terms of development and western form according to european methods? It seems so. But does this make it bad? No necessarily because most if not all of his symphonies appear to be hybrids / fusions of russian and western styles. In some respects they quite progressive. 'Winter Daydreams' starts off seemingly programmatic and whether he gave up on the idea or just let the last two movements unfold matters little as it still carries a couple of excellent movements despite nearly killing him. The second movement is truly divine.

As for his symphonic output as a whole - his last 3 are generally considered masterpieces and this does not include the Manfred which is often hailed as one of the greatest programmatic symphonies. This means 4/7 (57%) of his attempts are hailed as masterpieces within the genre. That's a lot higher percentage than many of his contemporaries including the brilliant Dvorak and older composers such as Schumann and Schubert.


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## mtmailey

His symphony 1 was not that bad most composers write the first one not that great.I like the last movement of the symphony 1.


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## KenOC

mtmailey said:


> His symphony 1 was not that bad most composers write the first one not that great.I like the last movement of the symphony 1.


I listened to PIT's 1st symphony a while ago while driving up toward Santa Cruz on a road trip. I rather liked it! Never listened to it before, but thought it was quite good. There's so much good music I haven't heard!


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## Eviticus

KenOC said:


> I listened to PIT's 1st symphony a while ago while driving up toward Santa Cruz on a road trip. I rather liked it! Never listened to it before, but thought it was quite good. There's so much good music I haven't heard!


Have you ever heard his second symphony often referred to as 'The Little Russian'? It's well worth a listen and it eventually became my favourite of the set.


----------



## KenOC

Eviticus said:


> Have you ever heard his second symphony often referred to as 'The Little Russian'? It's well worth a listen and it eventually became my favourite of the set.


I've always enjoyed the Little Russian. It's last movement gives meaning to the old saw, "Tchaikovsky could swear a theme through a stone wall." :lol:


----------



## Eviticus

KenOC said:


> I've always enjoyed the Little Russian. It's last movement gives meaning to the old saw, "Tchaikovsky could swear a theme through a stone wall." :lol:


If i ever get dementia, i'm almost certain the last thing i'll ever forget is the theme from the opening of the second movement - i'm forever humming it.






12:10 in on the above as reminder.


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## Avey

Roi N said:


> Oh, I almost forgot. His String Serenade is one of the most complete pieces ever composed.


I find the Serenade in C to be his greatest work. Not at all complex or dramatic; rather, it's oddly reposeful and contemplative. I don't often find that in P.T.'s music, but I do here.


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## hpowders

The Serenade for Strings is indeed one of Tchaikovsky's greatest works.


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## Itullian

I'm in awe every time I listen to the Nutcracker.
All those timeless, magical melodies!!!


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## KenOC

Listening now to Dorati's Serenade for Strings... Dorati is perfect for Tchaikovsky.


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## mtmailey

Rondo said:


> Symphony No. 6 and the _Romeo and Juliet Fantasy_ Overture. Great, great stuff!!


YOU FORGOT THE 1812 OVERTURE here just as good as the other one.


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## mtmailey

Eviticus said:


> Have you ever heard his second symphony often referred to as 'The Little Russian'? It's well worth a listen and it eventually became my favourite of the set.


SYMPHONY 2 does sound better than symphony 1 though.


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## Skilmarilion

The clarinet solo that opens the 5th is one of the most extraordinary passages in his oeuvre. So dark, so brooding, so devastating.


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## hpowders

Yes it is fine, but for me the most haunting moment in all Tchaikovsky is the opening oboe solo in the second movement of his fourth symphony.


----------



## Eviticus

hpowders said:


> Yes it is fine, but for me the most haunting moment in all Tchaikovsky is the opening oboe solo in the second movement of his fourth symphony.


I've always felt the 2nd movement of the 4th at times sounded quite Mozartian. Considering Mozart was his hero you would have thought this would be quite common in Tchaikovsky but it's incredibly rare.

The opening bars of the 2nd movement of the 5th (in particular preceding the horn) i think sounds haunting.


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## hpowders

Eviticus said:


> I've always felt the 2nd movement of the 4th at times sounded quite Mozartian. Considering Mozart was his hero you would have thought this would be quite common in Tchaikovsky but it's incredibly rare.
> 
> The opening bars of the 2nd movement of the 5th (in particular preceding the horn) i think sounds haunting.


A shame he had such doubts about his music. Wish he could see today's Amazon.com's Tchaikovsky section!


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## hpowders

Listening to Tchaikovsky's string quartets # 1 & 2. 

You think you know Tchaikovsky?

Not if you aren't familiar with his chamber music.

Vital!!


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## mtmailey

Skilmarilion said:


> The clarinet solo that opens the 5th is one of the most extraordinary passages in his oeuvre. So dark, so brooding, so devastating.


Well the movements 1+2 are the best in the 5th symphony to me.


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## mtmailey

hpowders said:


> Listening to Tchaikovsky's string quartets # 1 & 2.
> 
> You think you know Tchaikovsky?
> 
> Not if you aren't familiar with his chamber music.
> 
> Vital!!


HE has a great piano trio,string sextet, piano solos


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## hpowders

mtmailey said:


> HE has a great piano trio,string sextet, piano solos


Yes, the piano trio is gigantic! Awesome piece.


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## KenOC

Skilmarilion said:


> The clarinet solo that opens the 5th is one of the most extraordinary passages in his oeuvre. So dark, so brooding, so devastating.


Went to the Bernstein clip on YouTube to listen to this. It seems to be two clarinets playing in unison all the way through the opening. May have something to do with the sound, which certainly has its effect.


----------



## Skilmarilion

KenOC said:


> Went to the Bernstein clip on YouTube to listen to this. It seems to be two clarinets playing in unison all the way through the opening. May have something to do with the sound, which certainly has its effect.


You're right, my use of "solo" was shaky given that both clarinets play as well as strings (and later bassoon) in the opening.


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## Berlioznestpasmort

My 'favorite' spelling of his name: Tschaikowsky from Beate Berthold's EMI recording of Piano Sonata in C sharp minor. You see this from time to time. In this instance, curiously, it's only on the filing edge of CD case. It's spelled the usual way on the cover.


----------



## Eviticus

hpowders said:


> Listening to Tchaikovsky's string quartets # 1 & 2.
> 
> You think you know Tchaikovsky?
> 
> Not if you aren't familiar with his chamber music.
> 
> Vital!!


It certainly brings out another side to him. I think his orchestral works are more instantly likeable because of the BIG melodies whereas his chamber take more effort and time. I'm not as familiar with quartet 1 as i am with the others. Always had no.3 as my fav.


----------



## hpowders

Eviticus said:


> It certainly brings out another side to him. I think his orchestral works are more instantly likeable because of the BIG melodies whereas his chamber take more effort and time. I'm not as familiar with quartet 1 as i am with the others. Always had no.3 as my fav.


Quartet number one has one of the most famous movements in all of Tchaikovsky, the second movement "Andante Cantabile". Gorgeous! Speaking of big melodies!


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## Haydn man

His violin concerto is superb all the drama and romance you could ever wish for. 
I would say I prefer this to his symphonies but they are pretty damn good


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Happy Birthday, Peter Tchaikovsky!  May your great music live forever.


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## JCarmel

My favourite Tchaikovsky is his music to 'The Sleeping Beauty' but it _has_ to be conducted by Ernest Ansermet/Suisse Romande Orchestra!


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## Muddy

Is it Tchaikovsky's birthday? Then let me drink a toast to the composer who introduced me to the world of classical music. Thank you, Peter! My life changed when we met.


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## hpowders

Tchaikovsky String Quartets, Borodin Quartet.

If you love Tchaikovsky's chamber music, these performances are highly recommended


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## Vaneyes

Service's symphony guide looks at *Tchaik's 6th*. For suggested recs., I'll add Philharmonia/Muti, Santa Cecilia/Pappano, Philharmonia/Giulini, BPO/HvK. All on EMI.:tiphat:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to...uide-tchaikovsky-sixth-pathetique-tom-service


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## hpowders

My favorite Tchaikovsky symphony performances are from the Oslo Philharmonic conducted by Mariss Jansons.

Wonderful!


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## Dave Whitmore

I have to say so far Tchaikovski is my favourite composer. I say so far because I know there is so much music I haven't heard yet. In fact probably so much I haven't even heard _of_ so far. But of all the composers I've listened to, I love his music the most. His Violin Concerto is just amazing. I love everything about Swan Lake. His 1812 Overture. I could go on and on.


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## ArgumentativeOldGit

I particularly love Tchaikovsky's ballet scores - kaleidoscopic orchestral colours, endless melodic invention, an ideal marriage of grace and of passion ... What's not to like? I can never figure out which one I love the best - the tragic passion of Swan Lake, the charm and elegance of The Nutcracker, or the sheer radiance of Sleeping Beauty. I think they're miracles - all three of them.

(Edited to iron out an iPad auto-correct!)


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## Vaneyes

In 1891,* Tchaikovsky* was the first great composer to visit America. His trip would coincide with Carnegie Hall's opening.

Related:

http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/forum/forum0123.html

For those interested, a book is available that recounts his month-long stay. He was dead in two years.*

Tchaikovsky In America:The Composer's Visit In 1891*, by E. Yoffe, Oxford University Press, 1987.


----------



## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> In 1891,* Tchaikovsky* was the first great composer to visit America. His trip coincided with Carnegie Hall's opening.
> 
> Related:
> 
> http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/forum/forum0123.html
> 
> For those interested, a book is available that recounts his month-long stay. He would be dead in two years.
> 
> Tchaikovsky In America:The Composer's Visit In 1891, by E. Yoffe, Oxford University Press, 1987.


Wish I could have been there!!


----------



## Queen of the Nerds

*Pyotr Illyich Tchaikovsky*

Tchaikovsky is amazing... Here, we discuss Tchaikovsky and his music; nothing else, please!


----------



## Queen of the Nerds

What is your favorite...
ballet by Tchaikovsky?
symphony by Tchaikovsky?
concerto by Tchaikovsky?
anything that does not fit into the previous three categories by Tchaikovsky?


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## hpowders

Ballet: Swan Lake

Symphony: No. 4

Concerto: Violin Concerto & Piano Concerto No. 1, both tied for first

String Quartet No. 1 with the famous Andante Cantabile second movement.


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## Queen of the Nerds

hpowders... I love Swan Lake too! That's my favorite Tchaikovsky ballet!!!!!!! I also heard part of the 4th symphony (the 3rd movement. Very cool.)


----------



## hpowders

Queen of the Nerds said:


> hpowders... I love Swan Lake too! That's my favorite Tchaikovsky ballet!!!!!!! I also heard part of the 4th symphony (the 3rd movement. Very cool.)


Try to hear the second movement, andante cantabile, of Tchaikovsky's First String Quartet, if you haven't already. It is one of Tchaikovsky's most famous melodies! You Tube it.


----------



## Orfeo

Favorite
-ballet by Tchaikovsky? Sleeping Beauty.
-symphony by Tchaikovsky? Manfred and the Fifth.
-concerto by Tchaikovsky? His Second Piano Concerto (by a mile).
-anything that does not fit into the previous three categories by Tchaikovsky? His operas (with Mazeppa, Orleanskaya Deva, & Pique Dame being my favorites). Also his chamber and instrumental music (Souvenir de Florence a brilliant work from start to finish and I like The Seasons a great deal). Also, The Snow Maiden (incidental music) is wonderful as well as Francesca da Rimini. His Third Suite is quite up there as well in my estimation.

Yes, this composer is amazing!


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## MoonlightSonata

Ballet: Can't decide between SL and Nutcracker
Symphony: #6
Concerto: Piano 1
Other: There's a lovely little piano piece I played once. I can't remember what it was called, but it was really lovely.


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## opus55

Queen of the Nerds said:


> What is your favorite...
> ballet by Tchaikovsky?
> symphony by Tchaikovsky?
> concerto by Tchaikovsky?
> anything that does not fit into the previous three categories by Tchaikovsky?


Swan Lake
Symphony #4
It's a draw between the Violin and Piano(#1) concertos

Francesca da ramini, Rococo variation and Manfred Symphony are also very good. The Seasons piano pieces are beautiful as well.


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## StlukesguildOhio

What is your favorite...
Ballet by Tchaikovsky?- Well... considering the time of year... *The Nutcracker!* But I love all of them.
Symphony by Tchaikovsky?- Love them all here as well. No. 1 (Winter Dreams) really turned me onto Romantic era music-*No. 5*
Concerto by Tchaikovsky?-*Piano Concerto no. 1 performed by Van Cliburn*... although no. 2 and the Violin Concerto are not far behind.
Anything that does not fit into the previous three categories by Tchaikovsky?

Opera- *Eugene Onegin & Pique Dame*
I also love the *1812 Overture*... no matter how cheesy others may feel it is. Especially performed by Antal Dorati on Mercury or Reiner on RCAs "Living Stereo"
*Marche Slav, Capriccio Italien*
*Romances* (Russian Art Songs/Lieder)


----------



## MoonlightSonata

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I also love the *1812 Overture*... no matter how cheesy others may feel it is...


Oh yes, I forgot about 1812. I like that one too.


----------



## QuietGuy

What is your favorite...
Ballet: Nutcracker
Symphony:#5
Concerto: Piano Concerto #1
Song: None But the Lonely Heart
Tone Poem: Romeo & Juliet


----------



## Skilmarilion

Perhaps this thread should be merged with the existing one?



Queen of the Nerds said:


> What is your favorite...
> ballet by Tchaikovsky?


Swan Lake.



Queen of the Nerds said:


> symphony by Tchaikovsky?


The 6th.



Queen of the Nerds said:


> concerto by Tchaikovsky?


The 2nd piano concerto.



Queen of the Nerds said:


> anything that does not fit into the previous three categories by Tchaikovsky?


The Piano Trio. For me, perhaps the grandest, most ambitious and most moving of all his works.

But honestly, singling out Tchaikovsky works is a tough task, because I like *pretty much anything and everything Tchaikovsky. * :tiphat:


----------



## Triplets

Lately I have become enamored with the "Manfred " Symphony. Don't get hung up on whether it is a 'true'Symphony, or a tone poem, or something else. There is some of his greatest music here.


----------



## MagneticGhost

I love the Manfred and I love his symphony No.1. Think they are among his best works. 
Eugene Onegin is one of my favourite operas. 

Would love to hear some of his songs. Any recommendations on where to start with that one.

ps: as above - perhaps this should be merged with the existing thread.


----------



## DavidA

Th piano concerto 1 is the first [piece that got me into classical music. Version played by Julius Katchen which appears to be unavailable. 
It is simply amazing! One of the great piano concertos of huge genius that even the composer couldn't repeat.
I have it played by Argerich (twice), Pletnev, Horowitz, Graffmann, Richter, etc - simply amazing work which even tons of performances cannot dim.


----------



## Queen of the Nerds

Symphony no.1 ("Winter Dreams") is the only one of Tchaikovsky's symphonies I have listened to in full, but I will be making my way through them, as I am currently on holiday break from school. Winter Dreams is beautiful, and my favorite movement is the 3rd, but the first 1-2 minutes sound like ice-skating. The effect is unbelievable. Amazing.


----------



## starthrower

I just got the Pletnev set. I'm looking forward to listening to all these works.


----------



## Blancrocher

hpowders said:


> Try to hear the second movement, andante cantabile, of Tchaikovsky's First String Quartet, if you haven't already. It is one of Tchaikovsky's most famous melodies! You Tube it.


It's a lovely piece, I agree. There's also a nice recording with Bernstein conducting the orchestral version of that movement.

http://www.amazon.com/Barbers-Adagio-Romantic-Favorites-Strings/dp/B0002J58PQ


----------



## Dave Whitmore

Queen of the Nerds said:


> What is your favorite...
> ballet by Tchaikovsky?
> symphony by Tchaikovsky?
> concerto by Tchaikovsky?
> anything that does not fit into the previous three categories by Tchaikovsky?


Bellet: Swan Lake or Nutcracker. I cant make my mind up lol. But both have amazing music!
Symphony: No 4.
Concerto: Violin! But I also love his Piano Concerto 1.
Other: 1812 Overture.

Tchaikovsky is one of top three composers. I love his music!


----------



## Queen of the Nerds

Dave, YOU READ MY MIND ABOUT THE BALLETS. I like Sleeping Beauty, but Swan Lake and the Nutcracker are AMAZING. I could listen to the Grand Waltz from Swan Lake for hours!


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## hpowders

Blancrocher said:


> It's a lovely piece, I agree. There's also a nice recording with Bernstein conducting the orchestral version of that movement.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Barbers-Adagio-Romantic-Favorites-Strings/dp/B0002J58PQ


Yes. That movement could go very nicely as an orchestral transcription. One of the finest melodies ever written.


----------



## Celesta

What is your favorite...
Ballet: It's so hard to choose! All of them are masterpieces and I'm a balletomane who adores them all. Today I'll say Sleeping Beauty.
Symphony: #4
Concerto: 3rd Piano Concerto
Chamber Music: Souvenir di Florence
Symphonic Poem: Francesca da Rimini


----------



## Woodduck

Favorite Tchaikovsky:

Ballet: Sleeping Beauty most of the time, but Swan Lake to see danced, and Nutcracker seasonally.
Symphony: Manfred, because I didn't play it five hundred times when I was young. 
Concerto: Piano #2
Chamber: Souvenir de Florence
Opera: Queen of Spades
Other: Serenade for Strings (especially with Balanchine's choreography); Orchestral Suite #3


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## hpowders

My favorite Tchaikovsky is the Fourth Symphony and it is overdue to be played at my house.

I can't think of a better way to rouse the neighbors on a gorgeous Sunday morning.


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## pianississimo

This week I attended 4 concerts. The Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra (RLPO), conducted by Vasily Petrenko, soloist Nikolai Lugansky.
The second half of all four was the fourth symphony.
This amazing piece of music is in four movements.
The first one is very long. It opens with huge fanfares from the horns and these are followed by melodic episodes which when you listen to them next to the final rondo theme, are clearly drawn from the same ideas.
Tchaikovsky takes his main theme idea and builds it up into a huge military-like march, which is broken by a gentler melody in the piano.
The movement finishes - typically for Tchaikovsky - with a very final sounding cadence.
This is a bit of a habit of Tchaikovsky. He does it in two piano concertos, at least two symphonies and the violin concerto. You get a long first movement which draws a huge arch and finishes quite explosively. Often, less experienced audiences then applaud, and the musicians smirk.
That said, it is a great first movement.

Then there's the slow movement, this has a melancholic mood and contains lots of sad wind instrument solos. It begins with a pizzicato from the strings, but the third movement takes this further. A ripple of plucked strings swirls around the stage and ebbs and flows like a chunky tide, gathering momentum and and then going from forte to pianissississmo. This is broken by an interruption from the back of the stage, where the oboes are obviously getting bored.
This duel of srings and wind is very effective. The contrast of the gentle pizzicato and the strident response from the back of the stage gives the movement it's own little dramatic episode.

The finale is marked "Allegro con fuoco" It's more dramatic than actually fiery though. That comes from the live version I heard in Manchester, Leeds and Liverpool and the recorded version I have (Claudio Abbado: New Philharmonia Orchestra).

You get a lot of percussion and the movement opens with such an explosion of drums, trumpets and cymbals that several people in the audience actually jumped up. This happened each concert and was actually quite funny by the fourth concert. It still got me too. It's a bit like the scene in Jaws where the head pops out of the boat underwater. You have seen the movie 100 times but it still makes you jump. Tchaikovsky was such a genuis of a dramatist. He would have liked Spielberg!

The first night concerto was Tchaikovsky #1 That warhorse. Described by pianists as uncomfortable to play but loved by audiences. Enough has been said about it. I love it and have a lot of recordings of it, from ordinary to mind blowing.

The other three concerts were given over to concerto number 2. This is less well known and this shouldn't be the case. It's like Tchaikovsky made a list of the rules of how to write piano concertos and then broke them all one by one.

The first cadenza for the piano begins right after the theme is introduced. Then it seems that the orchestra and the soloist take turns at playing. The pianist gets some flourishes to play while the orchestra plays but only has a voice of its own when the orchestra is silent. I tried to work out some kind of structure but it's not easy.

The second movement is even more strange. After an introduction by orchestra alone, there is a lovely song-like passage for the lead violin. The RLPO violinist Thelma Handy played this so beautifully. It is played softly and yet has to sing out over the accompanying strings. Like a human voice crying out over distant mountains. Then the lead cello takes up the melody and eventually the piano joins in too. At times the piano is just part of the orchestra, while the violin and cello play the treble and bass parts respectively. 
When the piano does get a cadenza it sounds almost like it's playing the violin part - as if it swapped roles with the strings.

The third movement is a good old fashioned rondo. The piano plays the rondo theme and then whips it into greater and greater complexity. The orchestra tries it's hardest to match it and eventually takes the lead in bringing back the theme. The whole thing finishes explosively with the pianist leaping up and diving into the keyboard like a drug crazed metal head in a moshpit.

I definitely recommend this concerto. The symphony is great too. My third favourite of Tchaikovsky, after 6 and 5.

I found this recording of Pletnev playing the concerto. It's strange because the cellist actually moves position for the second movement and funny because the German audience get caught by the conclusion of the first movement and clap at the wrong time (oops!)


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## hpowders

Glad you heard the Tchaikovsky Fourth Symphony. It happens to be my favorite Tchaikovsky symphony.


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## deprofundis

Right now im lisening to his symphonies 1-2, respectively winter daydreams and little russian , quite nice but it dosen get more orthodox , meaning its classic done by the rule and standard per se.Not that its borring well maybe a bit but the conductor is Gerard Schwarz so i guess there is your redeemer of the following symphonies.

Im not a big fan of tchaikosky nor am i a hater, we all heard nut cracker ect, maybe he is better whit ballet and is orchestral work suffer..this said whiteout insulting tchaikovsky fan boys.


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## hpowders

What about his Fourth Symphony? His Violin Concerto? His Piano Concerto No. 1? Swan Lake?


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## manyene

Pianisissimo,

I've just come across your review of the Tchaikovsky 4 with the RLPO, discussed also on the Concerts thread, with the follow up of the 6th from last week, in my view the most profound of the six symphonies.

I think the 1st Symphony is underrated : it is well structured and avoids some the excessive gestures of the others, especially the 2nd and the 4th.


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## pianississimo

Hi Manyne. I've just seen this - I agree that the 6th is probably the greatest but I love the lightness of the 4th.
It's Tchaikovsky's 175th birthday today. 
I've added this very fine CD to my playlist for tomorrow to celebrate


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Happy (belated) Birthday to the great Master! May his music live on forever.


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## hpowders

For his birthday, key up the opening fanfare of his Symphony No. 4!!!


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## Vaneyes

Reason enough to bump "Peter's thread", with the latest "Tchaikovsky Competition" news. Apparently, there's a pianist to watch for.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/arts/mus...ikovsky-competition-is-the-man-who-came-last/


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## brotagonist

Happy Birthday, Peter!


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## MrTortoise

Vaneyes said:


> Reason enough to bump "Peter's thread", with the latest "Tchaikovsky Competition" news. Apparently, there's a pianist to watch for.
> 
> http://www.spectator.co.uk/arts/mus...ikovsky-competition-is-the-man-who-came-last/


Wow, it sounds like he has _very _unconventional technique, and that is an amazing backstory. I'll be on the lookout for this guy. When a statement like 'he 'argues' the music with a confidence worthy of Richter' appears in an article, someone is blowing hyperbole, or we have a star in the making.


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## leroy

Watch his second round performance here 



 truly amazing!


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## delilahx

I love Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 4 and 6. Also The Voyevoda, Eugene Onegin, Pique Dame, Swan Lake, Francesca da Rimini, Piano Concerto No. 1 and his Violin Concerto! He is my favorite composer.


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## Pugg

delilahx said:


> I love Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 4 and 6. Also The Voyevoda, Eugene Onegin, Pique Dame, Swan Lake, Francesca da Rimini, Piano Concerto No. 1 and his Violin Concerto! He is my favorite composer.


Glad to hear that, welcome to Talk Classical by the way.


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## Tchaikov6

Tchaikovsky... I don't understand him. Of his 3 most famous symphonies, the last 3 of course, I find that I like only the Pathetique. The 4th and 5th just don't seem to emanate true Russian spirit and originality, whereas I also love the first three symphonies. As for the famous first piano concerto, I find it fake and unoriginal, whereas the second is sparkling and brilliant. Don't get me wrong, Tchaikovsky is still my favorite composer, yet I find that his "greatest" works are ones that I don't enjoy. The 1812 Overture? Bland and cheesy, but Hamlet and the Tempest are true Russian (although Shakespeare inspired) works of art. I love his violin concerto, but I only like Swan Lake of his three ballets. So out of all of this my two favorite pieces by him would have to be either the Pathetique Symphony or the wonderful Little Russian symphony, which is super under rated but as nationalistic as Tchaikovsky gets. His more popular pieces confuse me, but I still overall love this Russian giant.


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## gouts

I like quite a bit his "Francesca da Rimini" tone poem. But all those pretty dances from the Nutcracker suite make me feel like a kid every time I listen to them...


----------



## TxllxT

Tchaikovsky - Romances Galina Vishnevskaya


----------



## TxllxT




----------



## JosefinaHW

Thank you for your extraordinary creation, _Eugene Onegin_. Watched the entire performance for the first time this evening--'completely captivated.

February 24, 2017
Metropolitan Opera (On Demand)

Conductor: Valery Gergiev
Tatiana: Renée Fleming
Lensky: Ramón Vargas
Onegin: Dmitri Hvorostovsky
Gremin: Sergei Aleksashkin

Gremin's aria is even more wonderful finally knowing the lyrics. I look forward to the day when Rene Pape sings the part, but 
I wonder if anyone could possibly perform it better than Boris Shtokolov (another voice to explore):






A link to the full 24 February 2017 performance (you can rent it for approx. $5, although this one is a keeper:

https://www.metopera.org/Season/On-Demand/opera/?upc=811357011379


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## Larkenfield

Exceptionally fine performance...


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## MusicSybarite

I wonder why this piece is not better known and performed in concert halls. Its belligerent nature conveys some stormy and raw feelings. It's one of his best late compositions IMHO. Compact and full of arresting ideas.


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## Rogerx

MusicSybarite said:


> I wonder why this piece is not better known and performed in concert halls. Its belligerent nature conveys some stormy and raw feelings. It's one of his best late compositions IMHO. Compact and full of arresting ideas.


Perhaps just too short for programing.


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## EdwardBast

Rogerx said:


> Perhaps just too short for programing.


The length certainly wouldn't exclude it from programming in the U.S., where placing an overture length work before a substantial concerto or symphony is pretty standard for the first half of a program. I can think of two other possible reasons for its relative neglect: The celesta, two harps(?), bells, and so on, are a lot of kit to move around between the first two works of a concert, if they aren't required for the longer work that follows - a problem that would be solved by performing it with another piece using similar forces. The other possibility is that it ends enigmatically and without the bang one usually finds in a work functioning as a concert overture. His other stormy tone poems end with more oomph and perhaps keep the ballad in the shadows for that reason?


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## oswestryalex

There is quite a voyage of discovery with Tchaikovsky's orchestral music - after the 6 symphonies, you can try the 4 orchestral suites which are lovely - the set by Neville Marriner are pretty decent and available for not huge sums these days. But then perhaps go into more controversial territory - the reconstructed 7th symphony, sometimes called the symphony of life (as T referred to it in his writings). I always felt the 3rd piano concerto was a strange and unconvincing piece, and it was fascinating to find that it was merely the first movement of an abandoned symphony being written around the same time as the 6th. It is in a major key, so interesting from that pov, and two of the original four movements were known, so a reconstruction was feasible, and done in the 1950s by Semyon Bogatyriev - the first recording was by Ormandy on CBS - if you can get it. I find the reconstructed symphony far more persuasive as music than the 3rd piano concerto, even if there are odd moments in it where I think perhaps Tchaikovsky would have done something different. But it is a fantastic effort and performed properly is well worth hearing.


----------



## flamencosketches

oswestryalex said:


> There is quite a voyage of discovery with Tchaikovsky's orchestral music - after the 6 symphonies, you can try the 4 orchestral suites which are lovely - the set by Neville Marriner are pretty decent and available for not huge sums these days. But then perhaps go into more controversial territory - the reconstructed 7th symphony, sometimes called the symphony of life (as T referred to it in his writings). I always felt the 3rd piano concerto was a strange and unconvincing piece, and it was fascinating to find that it was merely the first movement of an abandoned symphony being written around the same time as the 6th. It is in a major key, so interesting from that pov, and two of the original four movements were known, so a reconstruction was feasible, and done in the 1950s by Semyon Bogatyriev - the first recording was by Ormandy on CBS - if you can get it. I find the reconstructed symphony far more persuasive as music than the 3rd piano concerto, even if there are odd moments in it where I think perhaps Tchaikovsky would have done something different. But it is a fantastic effort and performed properly is well worth hearing.


You seem pretty well versed on Tchaikovsky. Who do you recommend for the symphonies? I have the Mravinsky/Leningrad set with the 4th, 5th, and 6th I believe and while it's certainly good, I don't find myself returning to it often. Unsure if that's to do with Tchaikovsky's music or the interpretation thereof.


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## bharbeke

I have heard the Mravinsky/Leningrad 4th, and I would call it good, not great. For the 4th, I would recommend Rozhdestvensky/LSO, Jansons/Oslo, and Abbado/VPO. I'm still looking for an outstanding 5th. For 6, I do love the Mravinsky/Leningrad, but I also love Reiner with Chicago.


----------



## Janspe

I may have mentioned my rather slow-burning relationship with Tchaikovsky's music on this site before, but tonight I listened to the 5th symphony (Gergiev/Wiener Philharmoniker) and oh my _god_ what a stunning piece it is! And I'm not just talking about the famous slow movement - wonderful though it is! - but the entire work. Not a single unnecessary note in the entire score.

The performance in question was recorded live, and there was an absolutely shattering shout of excitement from an audience member afterwards... It might as well have been me! I had to dig out a piano reduction score and run to my piano immediately upon finishing the piece.

I heard the symphony live a few years ago, and will do next season as well. Can't wait.


----------



## Rogerx

*Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky May 7th 1840*



Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky


----------



## perempe

unfortunately Leinsdorf's Symphony No. 5 with the BSO isn't available anymore on YouTube. was it the fastest ever? thoughts?


----------



## Merl

I still love Dorati's 5th from his cycle. What a great set that is.


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## flamencosketches

I've been getting into Tchaikovsky a bit lately. The piano concertos, the violin concerto, some of the solo piano music, and even the ballet suites a little bit (though I still don't have much patience for the Nutcracker). I wonder where to from here? I suppose I ought to try again with the symphonies, though I've never enjoyed them much in the past.


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## Enthusiast

I must confess to loving the Munich Celibidache recordings of the last three symphonies. Of course, you need to put previous experiences with these works away and be open to speeds that are often slow. He makes sense of all his interpretive decisions building moments of great power (or delicacy or ..). The slow speeds never make to music drag - indeed quite the opposite is the case: they can lead to an increase in tension, more powerful crescendos or to presenting the music with great delicacy (the Nutcracker Suite is a delight, for example). 

Other than these, I love Mravinsky's recordings, Gergiev's Vienna 5th, the Currentzis Pathetique, Bernstein's set, some of Dorati's set and quite a few others that those who can't hear beyond Celibidache's slowness are more likely to approve of.


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## perempe

For good recommendations, read the book "The 50 Greatest Composers and Their 1,000 Greatest Works".

Some works I've heard live include Queen of Spades (opera), Serenade for Strings (love it!), Francesca da Rimini, Romeo & Juliet (overture fantasy).


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## Sid James

*A Tchaikovsky diary* - last weekend's listening

*Piano Trio*

This is a ruminative piece, composed in memory of a friend and colleague. After a live performance, I saw the impact it had on the musicians who had taken the audience on this long emotional journey. They looked exhausted.

The main theme of the work emerges right at the start. It grows like a flower, not exactly rambling but still free. In another composer's hands it may have been tightened up, but Tchaikovsky's way of developing a theme was unique.

The variations in the second movement sparkle like gems. My favourites are the ones in which the piano sounds like rippling water and a music box.

The final movement follows without a break. Initially there is a mood of firmness and resolve, but this gives way to grief. The ending is highly visual, imparting an image of a funeral hearse approaching and receding into the distance. Its poignancy has on occasion reduced me to tears. I think it is about the realisation that once a friend is gone, even though the memories remain, the person can't be replaced.

*Rococo Variations*

More or less a homage to Mozart, this rather gentle piece imparts a warm glow. I can't detect any sense of struggle here. The variations never outstay their welcome and it's a pleasure to listen to the embellishments made by the cello soloist.

*Serenade for Strings & Souvenir de Florence*

These are comparatively lighter works by Tchaikovsky, but they display the same mastery of technique as his other famous works. Although they were composed ten years apart, they inhabit the same realm, combining Viennese refinement with Russian vigour. I see them as symphonies for strings, and wasn't surprised to learn that Tchaikovsky had originally planned the _Serenade_ as a symphony or string quartet.

Tchaikovsky continuously drew inspiration from Italy, and _Souvenir de Florence_ is among the vibrant scores which came about as a result. Like other musical travelogues by Mendelssohn and Dvorak, it is just as much about the composer as the place he visited. Right from the opening, a passionate outburst which to me resembles a refreshing breeze, you know you're in for a ride. As with the _Serenade_, the final movement is a tour de force in itself, incorporating a Russian dance.

*Recordings:*
Trio - Rosamunde Trio, alto ALC 1005
Rococo Variations - Maria Kliegel, vc./National SO Ireland/Gerhard Markson, Naxos 8.550519
Serenade & Souvenir - Vienna CO/Philippe Entremont, Naxos 8.550404


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## pianozach

This one is truly inspired.


_We, who mystically represent the Cherubim, _​_And chant the thrice-holy hymn to the Life-giving Trinity, _​_Let us set aside the cares of life _​_That we may receive the King of all, _​_Who comes invisibly escorted by the Divine Hosts. _​_Alleluia._​
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## Denerah Bathory

The 4th movement of this symphony is a high point for me, I like how there is a particular moment halfway through that totally changes phrasing, gets nearly sinister with the brass...then reverts to that joyous string theme again. It's all pf 30 seconds long and I always anticipate it, and found that he masterfully uses alternating brass and low string pedal notes to foreshadow it, if you're paying close attention to the previous section


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## 89Koechel

Denerah Bathory said:


> The 4th movement of this symphony is a high point for me, I like how there is a particular moment halfway through that totally changes phrasing, gets nearly sinister with the brass...then reverts to that joyous string theme again. It's all pf 30 seconds long and I always anticipate it, and found that he masterfully uses alternating brass and low string pedal notes to foreshadow it, if you're paying close attention to the previous section


Denerah (4th movement) - Which Symphony? The 2nd, the 4th? or which?


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