# "Tchaikovsky... a different class of shag"



## purple99 (Apr 8, 2008)

According to The Sun newspaper, Britain's biggest selling daily:



> Tchaikovsky's Romeo And Juliet is great lovemaking music, better than Foo Fighters. You're talking a different class of shag.
> 
> Beethoven's great too, but that's more your cooking music. Buy Beethoven and you'll be a whizz in the kitchen.
> 
> ...


What else can be done to drive classical music from it's elitist ghetto? Is a Murdoch-owned daily the best way to do it? Is it even desirable? Many classical music enthusiasts seem quite happy with how things are, thank you very much. They've got a nice little racket going and the last thing they want is the great unwashed joining them in the classical music section of HMV or, God forbid, the Royal Opera House.

NB Foo Fighters is an American alternative rock band formed by singer/guitarist Dave Grohl in 1995 following the dissolution of Nirvana.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Let's be real...there's a lot of snobbery in the classical community. Classical albums never outsell other genres (rock, pop, R&B, country, etc.)...why is that?

Two main reasons, I think.

One - Classical music is more complex structurally, emotionally, theoreticaly than most other genres. It requires concentration and does not offer the qucik fix of a 3 minute jam by Rihanna. People don't like committing themselves to things and sitting down to digest a Mahler Symphony is a formidbale task.

Two - The snob factor. People are afraid to approach classical because it is a tuxedo, champagne and caviar affair. At least that's the stereotype. How did that stereotype come into play...hmmm....?

As a classical fan myself, I'd like to think of myself as down-to-earth and I, by no means, see classical as a gift that should olnly be appreciated by a precious few. Classical music is one of mankind's great truimphs and certainly deserves do be admired by all to truly tap in to the "human experience."

How do we change this image? I have no idea.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> How do we change this image? I have no idea.


I think snobbery is endemic in most areas of human activity. It even exists (in multiple ways) within the community of those who themselves listen to classical music. There are the 'right' pieces, and the 'wrong' pieces. I was once the subject of a patronising comment by someone because I said I preferred Vaughan Williams's 3rd and 5th symphonies to his 4th and 6th, for instance.

Issues of taste have been confused with issues of morality for centuries. Jane Austen parodied the nonsense of it in _Pride and Prejudice_ so effectively that you'd think anyone would be embarrassed to indulge in this kind of snobbery, but it doesn't actually seem to make an impact except on those who already understand it:

_... as for Mr Hurst, by whom Elizabeth sat, ... when he found her prefer a plain dish to a ragout, [he] had nothing to say to her._


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## Elaryad (Jul 29, 2008)

I found this thread, read similar threads and I was wondering... About classical being elitist or not, who cares? What's the importance of the subject?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I suppose the subject is not really that important, but it wouldn't hurt the classical community if this kind of music seemed more accessible to the general public.


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## Elaryad (Jul 29, 2008)

Yes, but the crisis in the discographic industry affects all kinds of music (just to give an example). Classical music festivals and concerts here in Portugal have a great audience (another example). Classical music is accessible to the general public, don't you think? If you don't, why not?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Classical music is accessible just about anywhere. It's people's reluctance to approach it is the problem.

I think there is a notion that classical music is dourly serious, viewed from a distance but you must not touch...like a painting in a museum. To listen, you must be in an uncomfortable tuxedo or evening gown and you have to clap politely when the piece is over. I am not saying this is the truth, I am saying that this is a popular perception.

I think this is a wrong perception...a negative one. Classical music is the music of snobs and nerds! (I am neither!)

Pops programs try to pull in a wider-than-normal audience to be sure, but still...

I dunno. It's unfortunate that the perception is there and I don;t know how to fix it. I'd love for classical music to be more popular with the masses, but as long as there are white bow ties, things will remain they way they are for a while.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2008)

What is known as Classical to day was the pop music of the classical baroque period and before. not to be confused with Folk music although they are closely related.


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## Elaryad (Jul 29, 2008)

Really? I thought some of that music was composed and performed exclusively for the aristocracy. Folk was the music of the people, on feasts parties and so on. Probably I'm wrong, but I don't know a lot about this subject.


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

Lets have classical music played over the Public Address systems in supermarkets and shopping malls instead of that awful "muzak". Lets have it as back ground music for TV shows and documentaries, instead of that awful ear -bending rock music. (And it's not even good quality that!)
If classical music is going to be more accessible to the public, it needs to be where the people are most of all!!!...


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## marval (Oct 29, 2007)

I agree, I would much rather hear classical music in the background than the rubbish churned out, which they dare to call music.

On our our local news they told a story about trouble with youths, hanging around the local shops and basically being a pain. Someone decided to play loud classical music to scare them off, it worked. So what does that say about young people and classical music? I am sure classical music is much more relaxing than the loud boom boom, that young people seem to listen too.

But where I live I can go into a music shop and buy, loud un-musical cds, but If I want anything classical people look at me as if I am an alien. So the internet is where I have to go.


Margaret


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

marval said:


> On our our local news they told a story about trouble with youths, hanging around the local shops and basically being a pain. Someone decided to play loud classical music to scare them off, it worked. So what does that say about young people and classical music? I am sure classical music is much more relaxing than the loud boom boom, that young people seem to listen to.


Basically, Pop and Rock music are linked with rebellion. Young people are generally rebellious. Trouble is Pop music is forced down peoples necks if we like it or not...:angry:


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2008)

marval said:


> I agree, I would much rather hear classical music in the background than the rubbish churned out, which they dare to call music.
> Margaret


You really would have to know your clientele, it would be a brave or foolish shop keeper that blasted out the classics all day long,


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

You don't have to blast anything out. Just play it at normal volumes. I'm sure if a kid, young person or adult wants anything that badly from a shop, they will buy it whatever the music played. And by classics, you don't have to play Wagners Gotterdammerung, just some well known, Bach, Mozart or Beethoven..


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> Let's be real...there's a lot of snobbery in the classical community. Classical albums never outsell other genres (rock, pop, R&B, country, etc.)...why is that?
> 
> Two main reasons, I think.
> 
> ...


Three - There's only one "Dark Side of the Moon' or 'Sgt. Peppers.' But there are countless recordings of the major classical pieces. If there were only one Beethoven 9th it would have been big on the charts too.


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> Two - The snob factor. People are afraid to approach classical because it is a tuxedo, champagne and caviar affair. At least that's the stereotype. How did that stereotype come into play...hmmm....?


But It's only a snob factor in certain countries, I mean UK and maybe some other "west" countries - I don't know..But go to other European countries and it's far more embedded into the culture..What does it say about the UK? .....


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

marval said:


> I agree, I would much rather hear classical music in the background than the rubbish churned out, which they dare to call music.
> 
> On our our local news they told a story about trouble with youths, hanging around the local shops and basically being a pain. Someone decided to play loud classical music to scare them off, it worked. So what does that say about young people and classical music? I am sure classical music is much more relaxing than the loud boom boom, that young people seem to listen too.
> 
> ...


Well, there's more to popular music or rock than the top 40 stuff that kids jump up and down to on a Saturday night. Rock/Pop is no longer music for kids only either - people who grew up with the Beatles are now in their sixties themselves. Of course todays Pop/Rock is very different from that of those days, but my point is that I think it's a mistake to think that kids will only listen to what they are listening too until they are 21 and then move on to something else or lose interest altogether. There are zillions of music forums where old farts my age or older discuss rock, pop, soul, blues, jazz, country and so on. And they take it just as seriously as they do Mozart or Beethoven over here.

That's why I think that a "You're just listening to rubbish" attitude isn't very productive to get people interested in Classical music. Firstly because it often isn't true and secondly because nobody wants to be told that he's/she's an idiot. It seems to me though that it might be easier to get a, say Joni Mitchell fan interested in classical music than a Britney Spears fan because the average Joni fan is more used to really listen, analize the lyrics and so on. But it's always wrong to generalize of course.


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but one of the major reasons that people don't approach classical music anymore is because it doesn't have understandable words. People like lyrics. They want to sing along and dance around. Choral music may fall into classical music, but people hate that even more because it's usually not in their language and they can't understand it. There are a number of other factors as well. It's long, whereas mainstream music is 2-4 minutes long. It's not accessible, whereas mainstream music is heard all over the radio and TV. As for the elitist comments, it can be looked at either way. Classical music does take some intellect and not everyone is going to like it obviously. I recently went to a concert and wore a button up shirt, dress shorts, and some casual shoes. I might have got stared down a few times, but they'll get over it. Another thing I notice at concerts is that it's most always older people (no offense ). I may have saw one teenager before, but he looked pretty bored with it all. Today, people like going to concerts to jump up and down, mosh, and throw things. A renaissance of classical music is doubtful unless we start using electronic synthesizers and crap and some cheesy lyrics, which may happen. Here's what I mean: http://plork.cs.princeton.edu/

We'll see!


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## purple99 (Apr 8, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Well, there's more to popular music or rock than the top 40 stuff that kids jump up and down to on a Saturday night. Rock/Pop is no longer music for kids only either - people who grew up with the Beatles are now in their sixties themselves. Of course todays Pop/Rock is very different from that of those days, but my point is that I think it's a mistake to think that kids will only listen to what they are listening too until they are 21 and then move on to something else or lose interest altogether. There are zillions of music forums where old farts my age or older discuss rock, pop, soul, blues, jazz, country and so on. And they take it just as seriously as they do Mozart or Beethoven over here.
> 
> That's why I think that a "You're just listening to rubbish" attitude isn't very productive to get people interested in Classical music. Firstly because it often isn't true and secondly because nobody wants to be told that he's/she's an idiot. It seems to me though that it might be easier to get a, say Joni Mitchell fan interested in classical music than a Britney Spears fan because the average Joni fan is more used to really listen, analize the lyrics and so on. But it's always wrong to generalize of course.


Well said. I've just joined a very lively pop music/indie/youth music culture forum and received a lovely welcome. I said openly I know little about the genre, have been stuck for years in a classical music ghetto, and want to learn. They couldn't have been more helpful and friendly, and the site owner even PMd me a welcome -- one he'd written himself not churned out by the software.

I think some old fogies involved in classical music enjoy the elitism, and want to keep it that way. Which is one reason they abuse other music cultures: to keep the great unnwashed out and their exclusive racket going. If I was a young classical music composer I'd see them as the enemy -- seeking to keep the art in a snobby backwater for their own selfish reasons.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2008)

David C Coleman said:


> You don't have to blast anything out. Just play it at normal volumes. I'm sure if a kid, young person or adult wants anything that badly from a shop, they will buy it whatever the music played. And by classics, you don't have to play Wagners Gotterdammerung, just some well known, Bach, Mozart or Beethoven..


DC, My normal level is loud. 
Unfortunately in some shops the music is loud. if I walk into a shop playing loud music that I do not like then I walk right out.
If you are in the retail business you cannot afford to alienate your customers this is why the large department stores play elevator music that people hear but pay little heed to.


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## Kezza (May 13, 2008)

Rachovsky said:


> I recently went to a concert and wore a button up shirt, dress shorts, and some casual shoes. I might have got stared down a few times, but they'll get over it. Another thing I notice at concerts is that it's most always older people (no offense ). I may have saw one teenager before, but he looked pretty bored with it all.


I went to a concert just the other week and I got the tickets for half price because I was a 'junior' Which apparently is younger than 30 and When I went it was mostly old people. I did feel very out of place but the music was still awesome. So I can see what you're saying. I just wore a button up shirt, normal pants normal shoes. My girlfriend just wore a plain dress nothing fancy. Most people were in suits and it actually made me feel poor


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

Kezza said:


> I went to a concert just the other week and I got the tickets for half price because I was a 'junior' Which apparently is younger than 30 and When I went it was mostly old people.


At one of the venues that I go to all school children are free if with an adult, and yes about 60-70% of the audience are over 60 but I have noticed in the last couple of years or so more people in the 30-50 age group and quite a few teenagers who seem to love it


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## Elaryad (Jul 29, 2008)

Rachovsky said:


> I don't know if this has been mentioned, but one of the major reasons that people don't approach classical music anymore is because it doesn't have understandable words. People like lyrics. They want to sing along and dance around. Choral music may fall into classical music, but people hate that even more because it's usually not in their language and they can't understand it. There are a number of other factors as well. It's long, whereas mainstream music is 2-4 minutes long. It's not accessible, whereas mainstream music is heard all over the radio and TV. As for the elitist comments, it can be looked at either way. Classical music does take some intellect and not everyone is going to like it obviously. I recently went to a concert and wore a button up shirt, dress shorts, and some casual shoes. I might have got stared down a few times, but they'll get over it. Another thing I notice at concerts is that it's most always older people (no offense ). I may have saw one teenager before, but he looked pretty bored with it all. Today, people like going to concerts to jump up and down, mosh, and throw things. A renaissance of classical music is doubtful unless we start using electronic synthesizers and crap and some cheesy lyrics, which may happen. Here's what I mean: http://plork.cs.princeton.edu/
> 
> We'll see!


X2

I noticed on concerts that, yes, it's mostly older people. Very few young ones (12-18yr) and lots of people aged between 40-75 approximately. 
I don't care if I listen to music loved also by older people, probably because in my circle of friends they're are older than me.
And I also noticed that the age vary the most when the ticket prices drop down. If they can afford it, they take the family with them. But on the most cases the tickets are not very affordable when they're not included on a festival or something.


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