# Beethoven's Pastorale



## DaDirkNL

What an absolutely perfect piece of music. That second movement brings me to tears every time I listen to it..
I have a cd with Carlos Kleiber and the Bayerischer Rundfunk Orchestra.
Any thoughts or favorite recordings?


----------



## Art Rock

It is my favourite Beethoven symphony by far (actually, my favourite Beethoven composition, period). I don't go for comparative versions in general, I have the 70s Karajan on DG, which has served me well.


----------



## Pedro de Alvarado

For me Karl Bohm and the Wiener Philharmoniker are the best with Beethoven's Pastorale.


----------



## Guest

The 6th was the first Beethoven I bought (thanks to _Soylent Green)_, around 1977_. _Andre Cluytens with the Berlin Phil. I loved it, but grew overfamiliar, so listen to it less.










Even so, I had to finally add it to my CD collection (only this year) and Presto recommended this one (among others) Riccardo Chailly with the GewandhausOrchester.










I like it. It's fast (too fast for some) but I prefer it that way. I can't compare it with the Cluytens as I no longer have a turntable to listen to it!


----------



## Garlic

Is it just me or does the "storm" movement feel like it should be at least 2 or 3 x longer?


----------



## Pip

The most extraordinary version I have ever heard has to be Furtwängler with the BPO in Berlin live in march 1943.
With all that was going on around them at that time, to find such a serenity in the slow movement beggars belief.
It is a performance that must have lifted many a heart during those days.


----------



## leepee

The first version I heard was Toscanini on 78's with the BBC. Incredible! My favorite modern Pastorales on CD are:

1. Bruno Walter and the Columbia Symphony Orchestra ... warm and so loving 
2. Karl Böhm and Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra ... smooth with lovely string sound 
3. Bruno Weil and the Tafelmusik chamber Orchestra ... a truly pastoral yet JOYFUL version
4. George Szell and the Cleveland orchestra ... surprise ... a very genial and relaxed Szell ... precision with warmth
(the symphony set is available on Amazon.ca for less than $ 20.00)
5. Herbert von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic the 1977 version (avoid the 1963 version)
6. Günter Wand and the NDR-Sinfonieorchester ... listen with a score for a sense of everything being just right
7. John Eliot Gardiner and Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique ... the symphony set is a huge bargain on Amazon 
8. David Zinman and Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra ... another huge bargain on Amazon for the symphony set 

You should enjoy any of these performances. The Bruno Walter for me is a dessert Island disc. I've never found the BBC Toscanini on a CD so it's a pothole down memory lane for the moment


----------



## Guest

leepee said:


> 5. Herbert von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic the 1977 version (avoid the 1963 version)


Hello leepee!

I'm curious. What is it about the 63 version that causes you to make such a recommendation?


----------



## scratchgolf

I absolutely love the 6th. I feel it and the 7th are his only two symphonies that feel flawless. Someone earlier said the 2nd movement makes them cry. I can understand that but it makes me smile. No matter where I am it puts a huge smile on my face. And the 4th movement makes me believe there is a god. I have 4 different versions but my Bernstein 04 is my favorite. His tempo tends to be quicker but the sound is great.


----------



## Manxfeeder

I didn't get into the 6th until I understood minimalism. Suddenly, all those repetitive motifs made sense.


----------



## Blake

The 6th is amazing. Probably Lud's symphony I listen to most. I'm really digging on Barenboim's with the Staatskapelle Berlin right now. So rich and creamy... and the sound production is the best I've heard in a Beethoven symphony cycle.


----------



## scratchgolf

Vesuvius said:


> The 6th is amazing. Probably Lud's symphony I listen to most. I'm really digging on Barenboim's with the Staatskapelle Berlin right now. So rich and creamy... and the sound production is the best I've heard in a Beethoven symphony cycle.


I'm definitely going to look into that


----------



## joen_cph

I´ve currently got 9 recordings, Dorati/LSO, Paray/stereo and Scherchen/Westminster being among the favourites. All three have a fairly brisk tempo in the first movement and a highly dramatic storm section, more accentuated than in many more recent recordings. It´s been a long time since I heard Mengelberg (1940) & I´d probably choose that if I wanted to listen to the piece now. Needless to say, I can´t claim to know them all in detail.

The others are Karajan 63 & 77, Leibowitz, Toscanini 52, & Bernstein/NYPO. 

I might supplement with couple of more modern recordings later on, such as a HIP version. Kleiber does sound tempting.

I´ve skipped Karajan/EMI, Konwitschny, Bernstein/VPO and Blomstedt/Brilliant Classics.


----------



## AClockworkOrange

Usually, Furtwangler is king when it comes to Beethoven but for the Sixth, Carlos Kleiber is the maestro.

View attachment 29011


This is definitely my favourite recording of the piece by a wide margin. I cannot believe that it wasn't a regular in Kleiber's repertoire.

Unusually for me, Furtwangler is relegated to third choice, behind Tennstedt. That said, I haven't listened to Chailly and Harnoncourt's interpretations as yet so this may change. I cannot see Carlos Kleiber being dethroned in this piece but it could happen.

Only Celibidache and Klemperer are a struggle.


----------



## KenOC

leepee said:


> 1. Bruno Walter and the Columbia Symphony Orchestra ... warm and so loving


Yup. This is number one for a lot of people. You can get it as part of an obscure and very cheap reissue of the Sony remasters of Walter's Columbia cycle:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Vol...&sr=1-13&keywords=beethoven+symphonies+walter


----------



## leepee

Hey MacLeod
To my ears all the 1963 von Karajan are outstanding except for the 6th. It seems overly tense and taut. In the
later 77 version of the sixth, karajan seemed to relax more and take the stroll in the countryside. 
PS I love both his versions of K's glorious 7th, along with Szell's Cleveland version ... my favorite symphony.
PS2 I bought the Karajan complete symphonies in new York City in 1965. The vinyl DG records cost more then than the
CD set costs now. These records were the best available in my opinion. I played the vinyl 7th hundreds of times and it never
showed any wear. A wonderful set! 

Hugs etc Leepee


----------



## Mahlerian

The Pastoral is a great work, utterly unique among Beethoven's symphonies (but perhaps this could be said of any of them). It is neither "programmatic" nor "absolute" music, and like the symphonies of Mahler, seems to rest between the two. Its themes are among Beethoven's most memorable, their working out ingenious, and for a composer not renowned for his orchestration, he generates a seemingly limitless wealth of new and wonderful sonorities.

Minor chords are held in reserve until the storm, when they are unleashed in all possible fury. This sameness of sound might have given rise to the comparison to minimalism above.


----------



## KenOC

Sir George Grove (of Grove's Dictionary) loved this symphony. From his 1896 book on Beethoven's symphonies:

On repetition in the first movement: "I believe that the delicious, natural, May-day, out-of-doors feeling of this movement arises in a great measure from this kind of repetition. It causes a monotony -- which, however, is never monotonous -- and which, though no imitation, is akin to the constant sounds of Nature -- the monotony of rustling leaves and swaying trees, and running brooks and blowing wind, the call of birds and the hum of insects." 

Wrapping up: "In taking leave of the Symphony it is impossible not to feel deep gratitude to this great composer for the complete and unalloyed pleasure which he here puts within our reach. Gratitude, and also astonishment... What boldness, what breadth, what beauty! What a cheerful, genial, beneficent view over the whole realm of Nature and man... To hear it is like contemplating, not a work of art, or man's device, but a mountain, or forest, or other immense product of Nature -- at once so complex and so simple; the whole so great and overpowering; the parts so minute, so lovely, and so consistent; and the effect so inspiring, so beneficial, and so elevating."


----------



## Avey

I can think of few, if any, moments in music more sentimental than when the storm is fading off -- in reality, moving to the final movement -- and we're met with the comfort of the clarinet, followed by the horn, calling for reconciliation.


----------



## DavidA

Klemperer is a slower performance and is glorious if you don't mind the slow scherzo. 
As has been said HvK's 1977 version is to be preferred to the 1963. The 1977 version is really good with some fabulous playing from the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra.


----------



## starry

leepee said:


> I've never found the BBC Toscanini on a CD so it's a pothole down memory lane for the moment


It's been my favourite version for years, and it's on youtube I think if you can't find it elsewhere. I prefer that version to ones that are sleepy and sap all the energy from it.


----------



## scratchgolf

Avey said:


> I can think of few, if any, moments in music more sentimental than when the storm is fading off -- in reality, moving to the final movement -- and we're met with the comfort of the clarinet, followed by the horn, calling for reconciliation.


I was listening this morning and when the Finale was playing I almost became overwhelmed. I ended up listening to all my versions throughout the day. Then on my ride home I listened to just The Storm and Finale, 3 consecutive times. I don't know if love is a strong enough word for the way I feel about this symphony. If I were to see it performed live I don't think I'd be able to contain myself.


----------



## Blake

Vanska's interpretation with Minnesota is also worth a mention. He has some seriously wide dynamics.


----------



## Alydon

DaDirkNL said:


> What an absolutely perfect piece of music. That second movement brings me to tears every time I listen to it..
> I have a cd with Carlos Kleiber and the Bayerischer Rundfunk Orchestra.
> Any thoughts or favorite recordings?


Totally agree with choice of recording. I had got into a bit of a rut with the Pastorale having listened to it hundreds of times when younger and wondered how I could get anymore from it until I read about the Klieber recording and decided to purchase it. At first listening I found it appeared quite a conventional reading but then it started to grow on me and now has to be my top version of this marvellous work.


----------



## talx

It is my favourite symphony by far, love all the movements. First heard it on Disney's Fantasia when I was young, still love it!


----------



## Mandryka

DaDirkNL said:


> What an absolutely perfect piece of music. That second movement brings me to tears every time I listen to it..
> I have a cd with Carlos Kleiber and the Bayerischer Rundfunk Orchestra.
> Any thoughts or favorite recordings?


There's one from Mengelberg, a live one. It's on a Tahra CD called something like "unreleased live recordings." I think Casals did a good one too, at Malboro, though ultimately Casals's conception is too lyrical and beautiful for me. Maybe one of Scherchen's, I'd need to revisit that.

Get the Mengelberg. You won't be sorry.


----------



## Mahlerian

talx said:


> It is my favourite symphony by far, love all the movements. First heard *parts of* it on Disney's Fantasia when I was young, still love it!


Corrections added.


----------



## scratchgolf

Alydon said:


> Totally agree with choice of recording. I had got into a bit of a rut with the Pastorale having listened to it hundreds of times when younger and wondered how I could get anymore from it until I read about the Klieber recording and decided to purchase it. At first listening I found it appeared quite a conventional reading but then it started to grow on me and now has to be my top version of this marvellous work.


I can't find this on MP3. I could use some assistance as well. As a stand alone symphony, Amazon offers very little on MP3. They offer a Karajan 5&6 but some have slighted his 6th. Then a Bohm which people have raved about. This also includes a Schubert 5, which I have absolutely no problem with. Any thoughts or recommendations? May I also get a link to the Kleiber 6th CD? Thanks


----------



## starry

The problem is some performances (including some acclaimed ones) are so saccharine and lush they can put some people off this piece for a long time. Beauty for it's own sake rather than with purpose can feel empty.


----------



## Alydon

scratchgolf said:


> I can't find this on MP3. I could use some assistance as well. As a stand alone symphony, Amazon offers very little on MP3. They offer a Karajan 5&6 but some have slighted his 6th. Then a Bohm which people have raved about. This also includes a Schubert 5, which I have absolutely no problem with. Any thoughts or recommendations? May I also get a link to the Kleiber 6th CD? Thanks


I can't find the Klieber on MP3, though the Bohm has always had a glowing reputation and would be a very fine addition to a Beethoven symphony collection. Though I don't seem to download it to this site at the moment, the Klieber is available to listen to in its entirety on Youtube if that is any help.


----------



## starry

I haven't liked the Bohm version in the past however widely acclaimed.


----------



## scratchgolf

I've fallen in love the Bohm. The sound is very rich and dynamic. I've never heard French Horns blare with so much power and clarity. Mr. Bernstein has been reduced to #2 in my collection.


----------



## JohnnyRotten

Beethoven`s Pastorale first showed me its quack-quack, tweet-tweet, meuh-meuh, woof-woof Old McDonald properties with an excellent recording with the Chicago Symphony in the 70s.


----------



## Blake

JohnnyRotten said:


> Beethoven`s Pastorale first showed me its quack-quack, tweet-tweet, meuh-meuh, woof-woof Old McDonald properties with an excellent recording with the Chicago Symphony in the 70s.


The hell is this?


----------



## Vaneyes

For recs, Walter, Harnoncourt, HvK (70's re-remastered). :tiphat:


----------



## Zarathustra

Listened to it again today. Twice. First Abbado and then Carlos Kleiber. Different approaches.

Edit - Oops. Thought this was the Saturday Symphony thread.


----------



## hpowders

It's also my favorite Beethoven symphony as well. Toscanini, BBC.


----------



## Sonata

Definitely a wonderful symphony!


----------



## EDaddy

I find the Vladimir Ashkenazy (Decca 410 003-2) to be an elegant, well-paced and nicely balanced reading. Stately, yet with just the right amount of restraint in all the right places. Plenty of punch where needed, like in the 3rd movement when the lightning bolts strike.


----------



## EDaddy

Regarding the Toscaninni version mentioned above, I concur. Another one I have and love. Older sounding recording but brilliantly conceived, if not a touch faster than I want to hear the 1st movement.


----------



## DavidA

leepee said:


> Hey MacLeod
> To my ears all the 1963 von Karajan are outstanding except for the 6th. It seems overly tense and taut. In the
> later 77 version of the sixth, karajan seemed to relax more and take the stroll in the countryside.
> PS I love both his versions of K's glorious 7th, along with Szell's Cleveland version ... my favorite symphony.
> PS2 I bought the Karajan complete symphonies in new York City in 1965. The vinyl DG records cost more then than the
> CD set costs now. These records were the best available in my opinion. I played the vinyl 7th hundreds of times and it never
> showed any wear. A wonderful set!
> 
> Hugs etc Leepee


I agree. The 63 was recorded when there was quite a bit of stress (I forget why) with conductor and orchestra and it shows in the first movement especially. The 77 is just a touch more relaxed and is glorious.


----------



## neoshredder

My favorite Symphony from Beethoven as well. Sounds a little like Sibelius. Or should I say Sibelius sounds a little like Beethoven.


----------



## Überstürzter Neumann

Not my favourite Beethoven symphony - that would be No. 7 - but great nevertheless. My preferred recordings are Harnoncourt and Wand.


----------



## Rachmanijohn

I'm a pretty big fan of the Beethoven Pastoral as conducted by Lenny with the New York Philharmonic.


----------



## hpowders

Try Bernstein's VPO version too. Achieves a real sense of communication!


----------



## JohnnyRotten

Vesuvius said:


> The hell is this?


I can't remember who was the conductor, but it was a fine performance.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Carlos Kleiber is magnificent (by coincidence was watching the documentary 'Lost to the World' about him earlier on - what a colossus of a conductor!)

A very close second choice is Klemperer - even though he is seldom mentioned in this thread, he really is magnificent in his mastery of the overall structure and coherence of the whole symphony

As a leftfield choice, I also listen to the Liszt piano transcription quite often as well. It is not a replacement to the repertoire - it is an alternative piece of music, almost as much Liszt as Beethoven (I'm undecided where on the shelf to put his transcriptions - in Liszt or Beethoven ... or Berlioz or Schubert or Rossini etc etc) and it will strike many readers as being an odd choice, but I find that the piano transcription of a familiar work like the Pastoral lets me hear things a little differently sometimes


----------



## DebussyDoesDallas

Beethoven's 6th is one of the pieces of music that got me into classical music. A Haitink performance was the first symphony I attended of my own free will as an adult. 
I've never heard a version I didn't like, except some HIPers who take the first movement too fast (though, on the other hand, I like it when the long 2nd movement flows by smoothly but quickly)


----------



## Cascade

First choice: Christoph von Dohnányi/Cleveland Orchestra [Telarc].


----------



## scratchgolf

Headphone Hermit said:


> Carlos Kleiber is magnificent (by coincidence was watching the documentary 'Lost to the World' about him earlier on - what a colossus of a conductor!)
> 
> A very close second choice is Klemperer - even though he is seldom mentioned in this thread, he really is magnificent in his mastery of the overall structure and coherence of the whole symphony
> 
> As a leftfield choice, I also listen to the Liszt piano transcription quite often as well. It is not a replacement to the repertoire - it is an alternative piece of music, almost as much Liszt as Beethoven (I'm undecided where on the shelf to put his transcriptions - in Liszt or Beethoven ... or Berlioz or Schubert or Rossini etc etc) and it will strike many readers as being an odd choice, but I find that the piano transcription of a familiar work like the Pastoral lets me hear things a little differently sometimes


I haven't purchased this yet but I have watched on youtube. The 6th comes of splendidly. The finale of the 5th, not as much.


----------



## Couac Addict

I'd lean towards Wand/NDR Sinfonieorchester. He was a little bit hit and miss but I think he nailed it with a couple of Beethoven's symphonies. There's a lot of energy in this thta's often missing in the 6th.

...for the record, I think Wand's other gem is the 2nd with North German Radio. Very lively.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Pierre Monteux has a GREAT Pastoral.

Love this video because it i actually played off a vinyl disk:


----------



## hpowders

I like Bruno Walter, Bernstein/Vienna and of course, Wand in the Pastoral. Anyone but Chailly:
could be used as music for a commercial advertising New Balance running shoes!!!


----------



## SixFootScowl

I have Wand. I must get the Bernstein NYPO cycle. And I had the Walter cycle but gave it to my son.


----------



## Itullian




----------



## Marschallin Blair

Karajan's mid-seventies _Pastoral_ is my Belle of the Ball: animated, poised, suave, majestic, dramatic- all in the right proportions. Absolutely magnificent in every way.


----------



## DavidA

Headphone Hermit said:


> As a leftfield choice, I also listen to the Liszt piano transcription quite often as well. It is not a replacement to the repertoire - it is an alternative piece of music, almost as much Liszt as Beethoven (I'm undecided where on the shelf to put his transcriptions - in Liszt or Beethoven ... or Berlioz or Schubert or Rossini etc etc) and it will strike many readers as being an odd choice, but I find that the piano transcription of a familiar work like the Pastoral lets me hear things a little differently sometimes


Listen to Glenn Gould in the piano transcription. The tempi are so slow it shouldn't work but it does. Some of the most remarkable pianism ever recorded:


----------



## shadowdancer

Itullian said:


>


The best! Fully agreed!


----------



## EDaddy

For me it's these:





















With the now OOP Ashkenazy set still holding the #1 slot for me. Szell & the CSO a close #2.
The Gunther Wand set is outstanding as well, a little more live and modern-sounding.

Btw, The Gunther Wand complete Beethoven cycle (of which the above album is taken from) is excellent overall.


----------



## EDaddy

Blake said:


> The hell is this?


Lol! :lol: No idea


----------



## Marschallin Blair

EDaddy said:


> For me it's these:
> 
> View attachment 69860
> View attachment 69861
> View attachment 69859
> 
> 
> With the now OOP Ashkenazy set still holding the #1 slot for me. Szell & the CSO a close #2.
> The Gunther Wand set is outstanding as well, a little more live and modern-sounding.


I remember buying that record for my mom as a Christmas present when I was a kid. It had 'London' emblazoned across the record cover. It said "Vladimir Ashkenazy." It looked sophisticated. It would do.

She liked it.

I guessed right.


----------



## EDaddy

Marschallin Blair said:


> I remember buying that record for my mom as a Christmas present when I was a kid. It had 'London' emblazoned across the record cover. It said "Vladimir Ashkenazy." It looked sophisticated. It would do.
> 
> She liked it.
> 
> I guessed right.


Funny, my mom bought it for _me_ when I was in my late teens. She was an uber-classical aficionado, approaching snob level. Graduated Yale top of her class; perhaps _the most_ well-rounded, cultured person I have ever known. And she _knew _her classical! Apparently this was The One as far as she was concerned, or at least one of them. Have to say, I agree completely. Also, an interesting side note: It was one of, if not _the_, first versions of B's 6th ever released on CD when CDs first hit the market. Apparently someone else thought it worthy enough to release first.

Still think Ashkenazy and crew got most, if not all, of the nuances of the score just right. If only the sound quality was a touch better. While certainly not bad, it is a bit on the spongy or wooly side.

A copy well worth searching for.


----------



## EDaddy

DavidA said:


> Listen to Glenn Gould in the piano transcription. The tempi are so slow it shouldn't work but it does. Some of the most remarkable pianism ever recorded:


I clicked the link you provided on my phone yesterday, listened lo-fi and marveled at his brilliant interpretation of the score... and then drifted off into the most deliciously decadent nap. Literally woke up to catch the finale.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

EDaddy said:


> Funny, my mom bought it for _me_ when I was in my late teens. She was an uber-classical aficionado, approaching snob level. Graduated Yale top of her class; perhaps _the most_ well-rounded, cultured person I have ever known. And she _knew _her classical! Apparently this was The One as far as she was concerned, or at least one of them. Have to say, I agree completely. Also, an interesting side note: It was one of, if not _the_, first versions of B's 6th ever released on CD when CDs first hit the market. Apparently someone else thought it worthy enough to release first.
> 
> Still think Ashkenazy and crew got most, if not all, of the nuances of the score just right. If only the sound quality was a touch better. While certainly not bad, it is a bit on the spongy or wooly side.
> 
> A copy well worth searching for.


Then she should have chose the Karajan.

J/k. _;D_


----------



## EDaddy

Marschallin Blair said:


> Then she should have chose the Karajan.
> 
> J/k. _;D_


I take it that's your personal fav?


----------



## DiesIraeCX

My reference interpretation for the Pastoral symphony remains Bruno Walter's with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

EDaddy said:


> I take it that's your personal fav?


_Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssssssssssss. _

The mid-seventies performance that is. _;D_


----------



## hapiper

DiesIraeCX said:


> My reference interpretation for the Pastoral symphony remains Bruno Walter's with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra.


I don't have a lot of versions of this work but I guess I am lucky, because I DO have this one. I also have one by Charles Munch and another by Dohnanyi with the Cleveland Orchestra.


----------



## Guest

Any version without an 'e' suits me.


----------



## EDaddy

Marschallin Blair said:


> _Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssssssssssss. _
> 
> The mid-seventies performance that is. _;D_


Will have to give it a listen then. Or a re-listen, rather. I've heard it but never owned it.


----------



## EDaddy

Marschallin Blair said:


> Then she should have chose the Karajan.
> 
> J/k. _;D_


I was thumbing through a book called The NPR Guide To Building A Classical Library (or some close derivation) by Ted Libby (?) at the bookstore this evening and was interested to discover my favorite Askenazy 6th was one his top two recommendations for the symphony. I believe the Bruno Walter was the other. You should give it a listen if you can find a copy of it. I'm tellin' ya!


----------



## hpowders

Either Bernstein's second recording with the VPO or Wand from his complete cycle.

They both communicate what I consider to be Beethoven's intentions.


----------



## Triplets

Marschallin Blair said:


> Then she should have chose the Karajan.
> 
> J/k. _;D_


Bruno Walter or Pierre Monteux would have been the recommendations at the time. The Karajan was unfairly thought to be the soundtrack to acompany the German Panzers rumbling through bucolic French countryside.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Triplets said:


> Bruno Walter or Pierre Monteux would have been the recommendations at the time. The Karajan was unfairly thought to be the soundtrack to acompany the German Panzers rumbling through bucolic French countryside.


The Monteux is available on a double decker set with symphonies 1, 3, 6, and 8 (Wiener Philharmoniker) used for around $7 on Amazon--a great deal for four excellent symphonies. I liked the set so much I spent $27.50 for a used copy of the other double decker set of 2, 4, 5, and 7 (London Symphony Orchestra).


----------



## Triplets

Florestan said:


> The Monteux is available on a double decker set with symphonies 1, 3, 6, and 8 (Wiener Philharmoniker) used for around $7 on Amazon--a great deal for four excellent symphonies. I liked the set so much I spent $27.50 for a used copy of the other double decker set of 2, 4, 5, and 7 (London Symphony Orchestra).


Monteux is one of my favorite Conductors but I regard his Beethoven set as a bit uneven. 6 is the highlight.
2,3,4 very good; the rest variable


----------



## SixFootScowl

Triplets said:


> Monteux is one of my favorite Conductors but I regard his Beethoven set as a bit uneven. 6 is the highlight.
> 2,3,4 very good; the rest variable


I like the whole cycle, except for the Ninth from LSO is not very good. I have a Monteux Ninth conducted in France in the mail, hoping to fill out the cycle. Still a good deal for the one set at $7 to get the 6th and three others.


----------



## Queen of the Nerds

Oh. My. Gosh.
This is my favorite Beethoven symphony (and possibly of all symphonies). My favorite is the Haitink/LSO recording. While the fourth movement could be a bit louder in a couple places, it's still amazing nonetheless.
My favorite movement is the fifth. So beautiful and sweet, with some of Beethoven's best melodies and orchestral writing. Amazing in every way.
Just my thoughts.


----------



## chill782002

Have just got hold of a very interesting live recording of this Symphony from January 1953 - Erich Kleiber and the Münchner Philharmoniker. The first movement is a little faster than I'm used to but the performance as a whole is excellent.


----------



## CMonteverdi

C Klebier is my absolute favorite, too!

This is the version that makes me forget where i am...

LK


----------



## hpowders

Carlos Kleiber is too fast in the Pastorale for me. His orchestra is also a bit ragged. Woodwind intonation is subpar. He also fails to take the repeats in movements one & three.

Not as successful as in Beethoven's Fifth & Seventh, IMO.

My favorite performance of this great score is the more relaxed, communicative performance by Bruno Walter conducting the Columbia Symphony, which because of record label contract complications was really the New York Philharmonic.


----------



## chill782002

hpowders said:


> Carlos Kleiber is too fast in the Pastorale for me. His orchestra is also a bit ragged. Woodwind intonation is subpar. He also fails to take the repeats in movements one & three.
> 
> Not as successful as in Beethoven's Fifth & Seventh, IMO.
> 
> My favorite performance of this great score is the more relaxed, communicative performance by Bruno Walter conducting the Columbia Symphony, which because of record label contract complications was really the New York Philharmonic.


Right! I read that the Columbia Symphony was generally made up of freelance musicians and members of the New York Philharmonic or the Los Angeles Philharmonic, dependent on where the recording took place. As regards the Pastorale, although I like the E. Kleiber recording referred to above, my favourite is Celibidache's 1993 performance, again with the Münchner Philharmoniker. His "play it really slow" approach doesn't work with a lot of pieces but it's just perfect for the 6th.


----------



## lluissineu

chill782002 said:


> Right! I read that the Columbia Symphony was generally made up of freelance musicians and members of the New York Philharmonic or the Los Angeles Philharmonic, dependent on where the recording took place. As regards the Pastorale, although I like the E. Kleiber recording referred to above, my favourite is Celibidache's 1993 performance, again with the Münchner Philharmoniker. His "play it really slow" approach doesn't work with a lot of pieces but it's just perfect for the 6th.


I must confess The Pastorale has never been my favourite Beethoven's Symphony. Once said, I agree with prefering a slow version, except in The 4th movement where I can cope with a fast one.

Consequently my options are: Celibidache (a conductor I consider an absolute master), Walter and Böhm.


----------



## hpowders

chill782002 said:


> Right! I read that the Columbia Symphony was generally made up of freelance musicians and members of the New York Philharmonic or the Los Angeles Philharmonic, dependent on where the recording took place. As regards the Pastorale, although I like the E. Kleiber recording referred to above, my favourite is Celibidache's 1993 performance, again with the Münchner Philharmoniker. His "play it really slow" approach doesn't work with a lot of pieces but it's just perfect for the 6th.


Erich Kleiber was a great conductor. No doubt about it! He conducted the world premiere of Berg's Wozzeck. He was Karl Kleiber's father, the latter became Carlos Kleiber, after the family moved to Argentina.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

I really like Bohm with the VPO. That' s the version I keep going to most often.


----------



## Heck148

Reiner/CSO heads the list for me...really great performance...the all-important woodwind are stellar....Szell/Cleveland very good also, so is Walter/ColSO....this was West Coast Columbia Symphony - ie- LAPO members, with some LA studio musicians added.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

One of my all time favorite symphonies. 
Bruno Walter's version is great with Herbert Blomstedt and Barenboim both with Staatkatelle close behind .


----------



## DavidA

Best version for me is Karajan 1977


----------



## mathisdermaler

It's so so nice. I think Beethoven woke up on the right side if the bed the day he wrote it, much less angry than his others


----------



## Merl

Whilst it's not my favourite Beethoven symphony (the 7th has always been my fave), there are many very good accounts and some excellent ones. For me the key to the 6th is a really good first movement with a great sense of rhythm. The pace doesn't bother me in the 6th but I do like accounts with really sprung rhythms and great dynamics. Here's a few I really rate off the top of my head:

Kubelik / Orchestre de Paris (Killer account from one of my favourite Beethoven symphony sets - the balance of winds / strings is just superb. A must-hear)
Dorati / LSO (Superb soundscape)
Munch / BSO (Probably my current favourite. Great wind playing)
Bohm / VPO (Love the dynamics - an all-time classic)
Ashkenazy / PO (Beautiful, relaxed performance)
Gardiner / ORR (The pacing on this is sublime)
Maag / Orchestre di Padova (Broad reading with a great Storm)
Norrington / SWR (Fantastic phrasing and much better than his first effort - as is ALL of this cycle)
Immerseel / Anima Eterna (Beautiful but not lacking in punch)
Jansons / BRSO (Graceful and charming - like the whole cycle)
Karajan 63 (Benchmark performance)
Goodman / Hanover Band (Punchy rhythms and the best symphony from a good cycle, for me)
Blomstedt / Dresden (Wow, the bass really drives that first movement. This and the 7th from this tremendous set are terrific).
Fischer / Budapest (Wonderful, thrilling account with incredible sound. A close 2nd to Munch at the moment)
Rattle / BPO (Stunning playing and recording - a vast improvement on his leaden, clunky version with the VPO)

If I think of any others I'll add them but for now these are the ones I really rate. Strangely I've not included Kleiber's account as I've always thought it overrated. Each to their own! If you want to try something very off-the-wall and you dont mind a rather fast account, then check out Pletnev's reading from his excellent cycle. He drives a dragster through the countryside but the rhythms are so good, and the orchestra play so well, throughout the whole symphony, that it becomes addictive (like the whole cycle).


----------



## Pugg

I go with DavidA, most of them are fine as long it's not Chailly, the guy sucks.


----------



## Merl

Pugg said:


> I go with DavidA, most of them are fine as long it's not Chailly, the guy sucks.


Ooooh, that's harsh, Pugg! ;-) I'll admit I really like Chailly's cycle, however I agree that the 6th is one of the weaker of the whole set. It lacks charm at times (but is beautifully played). His 4th, 7th and 9ths are ALL excellent, though. As I said, the speed of the 6th is not important to me. It's the charm and character that the account generates that is the key. Listening to Kubelik's performance again, last night, reinforced this. He gets some unbelievable playing out his his French forces and shades the whole symphony beautifully. Jansons and Ashkenazy make the whole Pastorale dance and are delightful to listen to. I should also give a special mention to Vanska, who knocks out a rather delicious 6th too, in his complete cycle (shame his 9th is a bit pants) and Haitink and the LSO, whose account starts off rather routinely and blossoms as it goes on.


----------



## Pugg

Merl said:


> Ooooh, that's harsh, Pugg! ;-) I'll admit I really like Chailly's cycle, however I agree that the 6th is one of the weaker of the whole set. It lacks charm at times (but is beautifully played). His 4th, 7th and 9ths are ALL excellent, though. As I said, the speed of the 6th is not important to me. It's the charm and character that the account generates that is the key. Listening to Kubelik's performance again, last night, reinforced this. He gets some unbelievable playing out his his French forces and shades the whole symphony beautifully. Jansons and Ashkenazy make the whole Pastorale dance and are delightful to listen to. I should also give a special mention to Vanska, who knocks out a rather delicious 6th too, in his complete cycle (shame his 9th is a bit pants) and Haitink and the LSO, whose account starts off rather routinely and blossoms as it goes on.


But if you like it, that's all that matter isn't it?
I am very fond of Haitink's set, bit not much love around on this site for him, I don't lose sleep over it.
I do agree about the Ashkenazy though, just as I like many others.


----------



## Guest

But I do like the Haitink recordings Pugg,with the Concertgebouw orchestra.:tiphat:


----------



## DavidA

Pugg said:


> I go with DavidA, most of them are fine as long it's not Chailly, the guy sucks.


Ruins it. Not a stroll in the country but a sprint.


----------



## Guest

DavidA said:


> Ruins it. Not a stroll in the country but a sprint.


I really can not understand that people like this bloodless race.I reject this way of stripping Beethoven to just a skeleton of notes.


----------



## Merl

I don't mind Haitink's Concertgebouw Beethoven set but much prefer his LSO live recordings. They are more vibrant and much better recorded (they are also live, which gives them a bit of an edge). The 9th is especially good (as is his 4th). But like many have said, it's down to personal preference. I rather like Antonini's Pastorale too. My god, my list is getting unwieldy.


----------



## Pugg

Merl said:


> I don't mind Haitink's Concertgebouw Beethoven set but much prefer his LSO live recordings. They are more vibrant and much better recorded (they are also live, which gives them a bit of an edge). The 9th is especially good (as is his 4th). But like many have said, it's down to personal preference. I rather like Antonini's Pastorale too. My god, my list is getting unwieldy.


Isn't it that what it's all about, as long you can eatand drink enough, spend money on good music.
( your own choice)


----------



## chill782002

Pugg said:


> I am very fond of Haitink's set, bit not much love around on this site for him, I don't lose sleep over it.


I love Haitink, he's one of my favourite conductors and probably my favourite one who's still living. I saw him conduct years ago and it was magical.


----------



## JAS

David Zinman also rushes most of the symphonies, with the claim that he is following Beethoven's metronome markings as justification. I think it generally works for Eroica, but it ruins most of the rest. It must be hard to rationalize a new recorded cycle.


----------



## Pugg

Traverso said:


> But I do like the Haitink recordings Pugg,with the Concertgebouw orchestra.:tiphat:


Perhaps we are a but biased. 
Just a tiny bit though.


----------



## Guest

Pugg said:


> Perhaps we are a but biased.
> Just a tiny bit though.


When I first heard the Haitink on philips I didn't like it at all,my appetite changed,it happens sometimes.
I sympathize with his self effacing approach and let the music blossom on the basis of the score.phrasing, articulation, dynamics


----------



## AClockworkOrange

Pugg said:


> But if you like it, that's all that matter isn't it?
> I am very fond of Haitink's set, bit not much love around on this site for him, I don't lose sleep over it.
> I do agree about the Ashkenazy though, just as I like many others.


I like Haitink's Beethoven with the London Symphony Orchestra, a great live cycle. I tend to prefer older recordings but this is a fantastic modern cycle, along with Skrowaczewski and Rattle (Berlin rather than Vienna).

I've also grown to enjoy many of Haitink's recordings over time. His Vaughan Williams with the London Philharmonic Orchestra is superb, as is his Liszt with the same forces.


----------



## Merl

AClockworkOrange said:


> I like Haitink's Beethoven with the London Symphony Orchestra, a great live cycle. I tend to prefer older recordings but this is a fantastic modern cycle, along with Skrowaczewski and Rattle (Berlin rather than Vienna).


I need to play Skrowaczewski's cycle more. Only ever skimmed through it. Totally agree about the Haitink/LSO Live and Rattle/BPO cycles though. Rattle doesnt get enough credit for that last cycle. It didn't knock me off my feet but it's still a superb cycle and not a bum performance in there. That Ninth is very powerful, indeed. Very decent Pastorale too.


----------



## realdealblues

Love the 6th. Some favorite recordings off the top of my head..

Bohm/Vienna
Walter/Columbia
Szell/Cleveland
Bernstein/Vienna
Blomstedt/Dresden
Dohnanyi/Cleveland
Munch/Boston
Klemperer/Philharmonia
Kubelik/Paris
Dorati/London
Wand/NDR
Toscanini/BBC


----------



## SixFootScowl

JAS said:


> David Zinman also rushes most of the symphonies, with the claim that he is following Beethoven's metronome markings as justification. I think it generally works for Eroica, but it ruins most of the rest. It must be hard to rationalize a new recorded cycle.


But Zinman (at least in overall cycle length, don't know about possible missing repeats though) does not seem to differ much from Toscanini (~1950) or Leibowitz--both highly acclaimed cycles.


----------



## Merl

Oh, I forgot Barenboim's excellent 6th with the Staatskapelle Berlin. Superb reading.


----------



## realdealblues

Florestan said:


> But Zinman (at least in overall cycle length, don't know about missing repeats though) does not seem to differ much from Toscanini (~1950) or Leibowitz--both highly acclaimed cycles.


Zinman takes the repeats where Leibowitz did not so he is quite a bit faster. I know I have said it before but I agree with JAS that Zinman just sounds rushed in my opinion. Chailly is around the same speed as Zinman with the repeats but he doesn't sound "rushed" to me by comparison. Zinman always seems to be trying to force everyone faster as the movement goes on rather than just flowing along at a consistent tempo.


----------



## D Smith

Like many others I first heard this symphony in Fantasia and it has remained a lifelong favourite. The three recordings I return to most often are Bohm, Monteux and Karajan 70's. I also love Wand and Szell.


----------



## geralmar

Merl said:


> I don't mind Haitink's Concertgebouw Beethoven set but much prefer his LSO live recordings. They are more vibrant and much better recorded (they are also live, which gives them a bit of an edge). The 9th is especially good (as is his 4th). But like many have said, it's down to personal preference. I rather like Antonini's Pastorale too. My god, my list is getting unwieldy.


I much appreciated your list. I will only note that yours is the only positive assessment I have ever read of the '63 Karajan.


----------



## Pugg

geralmar said:


> I much appreciated your list. I will only note that yours is the only positive assessment I have ever read of the '63 Karajan.


Not sure about that, perhaps the people who like it just have lost interest in al the endless debating.


----------



## gardibolt

Fun Fact: After the premiere of the Pastoral Symphony, Beethoven changed his mind about the ending of the Scene by the Brook as he was readying the score for publication. Then he changed his mind again and crossed out the new version and went back to the original.

So far as I know, no conductor has ever recorded the alternate ending (there's a similar alternate ending for the first movement of the 8th symphony that has also never been recorded), but you can hear our rendition of it at The Unheard Beethoven:

http://unheardbeethoven.org/search.php?Identifier=gard24


----------



## Becca

chill782002 said:


> Right! I read that the Columbia Symphony was generally made up of freelance musicians and members of the New York Philharmonic or the Los Angeles Philharmonic, dependent on where the recording took place.


My understanding is that the Columbia Symphony was made up mostly of free-lance Hollywood studio musicians because Bruno Walter was not willing to travel to the east coast to make the recordings.


----------



## Merl

realdealblues said:


> Zinman takes the repeats where Leibowitz did not so he is quite a bit faster. I know I have said it before but I agree with JAS that Zinman just sounds rushed in my opinion. Chailly is around the same speed as Zinman with the repeats but he doesn't sound "rushed" to me by comparison. Zinman always seems to be trying to force everyone faster as the movement goes on rather than just flowing along at a consistent tempo.


Totally agree. I still don't love that Zinman cycle and I bought it. It isn't bad but Maag and Chailly (different approaches) do it so much better and make the performs ces sound much fuller, IMO.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Oldhoosierdude said:


> One of my all time favorite symphonies.
> Bruno Walter's version is great with Herbert Blomstedt and Barenboim both with Staatkatelle close behind .


I can add another to my favorites: I obtained a Sony remaster or Bernsteins NYPO recording from 1963. Except one place in the 5th movement that sounds like a recording distortion that lasts 15-20 seconds, this is a great addition to my Beethoven. A magnificent presentation. For those who like quick in their Beethoven, this is about the quickest first movement I have heard.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Have you heard Carlos Kleiber's live recording on Orfeo? If Bernstein's first movt.is quicker than that, he really *is* quick.


----------



## hpowders

Bernstein Vienna Philharmonic is slow. Most damaging is the ridiculous, distorting ritardando he takes at the end of movement one, when the movement practically comes to a halt.


----------



## Merl

Szell and Wand do a nice 6th too. Oh, and I still prefer the 63 Karajan to the 77 one. Maybe I've just learned to live with it for so long. Its a bit tense and nastier but I kinda like that.


----------



## jim prideaux

first listen this evening to Peter Maag and the Orchestra di Padova e del Veneto recording of the 6th......and I can instantly hear what the fuss is about.......wonderful!


----------



## Merl

jim prideaux said:


> first listen this evening to Peter Maag and the Orchestra di Padova e del Veneto recording of the 6th......and I can instantly hear what the fuss is about.......wonderful!


Yep, it's. A really good cycle across the board.


----------



## hpowders

Merl said:


> Szell and Wand do a nice 6th too. Oh, and I still prefer the 63 Karajan to the 77 one. Maybe I've just learned to live with it for so long. Its a bit tense and nastier but I kinda like that.


The Wand tends to be a bit leisurely in the first movement, but as throughout the entire set, there is feeling being communicated.

The Wand is my favorite Beethoven Symphony set.


----------



## Pugg

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I can add another to my favorites: I obtained a Sony remaster or Bernsteins NYPO recording from 1963. Except one place in the 5th movement that sounds like a recording distortion that lasts 15-20 seconds, this is a great addition to my Beethoven. A magnificent presentation. For those who like quick in their Beethoven, this is about the quickest first movement I have heard.


That one is high in my top 10 also.


----------



## jim prideaux

if anyone had predicted when I was much younger (contrary, awkward and listening to the Clash and Television etc) that I would have had that much interest in what has often appeared to be a work ruined by over familiarity I would have laughed.....so there you go.......but certain recordings seem to bring this symphony back to life-Maag's being one example....

so at work now and in response to some invaluable advice from this thread I am currently listening to Barenboim and the Staatskapelle Berlin on YT!

....and now out of curiosity-Furtwangler 1954 recording on YT.

later in the afternoon......Chailly and the Leipzig Gewandhaus.....What is going on??????

(just turned it off...my box set at home is Anima Eterna so I am going to compare now...and chuck in Gardiner for good measure!)

Anima Eterna-'quick',no doubt but still expressive (unlike Chailly)
Gardiner-again relatively quick but it 'breathes' with a sense of space......

conclusion-I only encountered the Maag recording by accident (courtesy of TC) but what a find.
Maybe in future I may have to consider investigating older interpretations of the essential repertoire....now for Wand!


----------



## Merl

jim prideaux said:


> ...........conclusion-I only encountered the Maag recording by accident (courtesy of TC) but what a find.
> Maybe in future I may have to consider investigating older interpretations of the essential repertoire....


Yep, it took me ages to buy the Maag set but I got it cheaper at Xmas and it's a really good one. Similar in sound / style to Zinman's but MUCH better - more expressive, fuller and played with a sense of joy that Zinman just doesn't conjure up.


----------



## Larkenfield

Fritz Reiner's Pastorale with the CSO is my ideal... serene and lively where it counts... and it never seems to break the spell of the magic Beethoven has created.


----------



## Vaneyes

Pugg said:


> Not sure about that, perhaps the people who like it just have lost interest in al the endless debating {re BPO/HvK LvB 6--'63 or '76}.


I vaguely recall more listener preference for the '63 in the 80's and 90's. I guess the pendulum has swung.

Prior to a very good remastering for '76 6, I didn't have much use for either. Now, '76 6 is one of my three favorites, with Walter and Harnoncourt. :tiphat:


----------



## Heck148

Larkenfield said:


> Fritz Reiner's Pastorale with the CSO is my ideal... serene and lively where it counts... and it never seems to break the spell of the magic Beethoven has created.


Yup...definitely...fabulous recording..best I know....the woodwind playing is virtuoso all the way...real bravura....


----------



## Merl

I'm just listening to Pletnev's 6th again. Really enjoyable (like his 4th).


----------



## classfolkphile

Beethoven is my favorite symphonist and the 6th is also my favorite symphony.

At the top, for me, are Monteux/VPO and Bohm/VPO.

At the next level are Wand/NDR, Haitink/LSO, Walter/Columbia SO and Karajan/BPO ('77). I like Furtwangler ('54) as well although it sounds like Beethoven filtered through Bruckner. 

However two releases of this symphony (the Reiner and the Klemperer) have been the most frustrating classical recordings I've ever heard.

I liked the beautifully articulated Reiner the first few times I listened to it but over time it just sounded too tight to me. If it breathed just a _little_ more it would be a great performance: on par with his 5th and 7th.

In the stereo Klemperer/Philharmonia, the first four movements are wonderfully conducted and played (even though the 2nd is faster that I usually prefer). Unfortunately, all of the energy just disappears from the very start of the last movement - and never returns. What should be radiance bursting forth, is just prose. Incredibly disappointing.

I just listened to the last Abbado/BPO on Spotify: it sounds promising.


----------



## hpowders

Walter/Columbia Symphony.


----------



## KenOC

hpowders said:


> Walter/Columbia Symphony.


Are there other recordings of the Pastoral besides Walter's? I wasn't aware of that. Wonder why they bothered.


----------



## Pugg

classfolkphile said:


> Beethoven is my favorite symphonist and the 6th is also my favorite symphony.
> 
> At the top, for me, are Monteux/VPO and Bohm/VPO.
> 
> At the next level are Wand/NDR, Haitink/LSO, Walter/Columbia SO and Karajan/BPO ('77). I like Furtwangler ('54) as well although it sounds like Beethoven filtered through Bruckner.
> 
> However two releases of this symphony (the Reiner and the Klemperer) have been the most frustrating classical recordings I've ever heard.
> 
> I liked the beautifully articulated Reiner the first few times I listened to it but over time it just sounded too tight to me. If it breathed just a _little_ more it would be a great performance: on par with his 5th and 7th.
> 
> In the stereo Klemperer/Philharmonia, the first four movements are wonderfully conducted and played (even though the 2nd is faster that I usually prefer). Unfortunately, all of the energy just disappears from the very start of the last movement - and never returns. What should be radiance bursting forth, is just prose. Incredibly disappointing.
> 
> I just listened to the last Abbado/BPO on Spotify: it sounds promising.


Great first post, welcome to Talk Classical.


----------



## Heck148

To me, Szell is the one that sounds "tight"....he, of course, had splendid players, great musicians to work with, but it seems too buttoned down...Reiner OTOH is lively and free....his peasants certainly have a rollicking good time of the scherzo and the first mvt is really joyful and high-spirited....Walter/ColSO is happy and warm as well.


----------



## classfolkphile

Pugg said:


> Great first post, welcome to Talk Classical.


Thanks Pugg! I'm really glad I found this forum.


----------



## classfolkphile

Heck148 said:


> To me, Szell is the one that sounds "tight"....he, of course, had splendid players, great musicians to work with, but it seems too buttoned down...Reiner OTOH is lively and free....his peasants certainly have a rollicking good time of the scherzo and the first mvt is really joyful and high-spirited....Walter/ColSO is happy and warm as well.


I agree with you about the Szell. The tightness I hear in the Reiner is slight, but that's exactly why it's _so_ frustrating to me: it is otherwise so good in so many other ways. Could it be the recording (I listen to CDs transferred onto hard drives)?


----------



## Vaneyes

classfolkphile said:


> I agree with you about the Szell. The tightness I hear in the Reiner is slight, but that's exactly why it's _so_ frustrating to me: it is otherwise so good in so many other ways. Could it be the recording?


No surprise, Fritz had the tightest "vest-pocket" beat going.


----------



## Heck148

classfolkphile said:


> I agree with you about the Szell. The tightness I hear in the Reiner is slight, but that's exactly why it's _so_ frustrating to me: it is otherwise so good in so many other ways. Could it be the recording?


I don't think so, but Reiner doesn't sound "tight" to me at all...he gives his soloists considerable leeway, and he gets a nice "swing" to mvt II "by the Brook". Beethoven #6 is one of the happiest sounding pieces in all the repertoire - not triumphant, not victorious, or anything psychologically cosmic - just happy - the First movement subtitle says it so well:

"Cheerful Impressions awakened on arriving in the Country"

Szell had great players, but he tended to micromanage - famous story about Szell ultra-conducting the flute solo in mvt the "Nightingale"/Quail/Cuckoo section...


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Walter and Szell have been mentioned. I would suggest Blomstedt and Barenboim both with the Staatskapelle. 

Try the Kletzki 6th. It should be on the spotify. Post what you think. I like the Kletzki cycle quite a lot with the exception of the 6th.


----------



## Merl

Right now I'm listening to Jochum and the LSO's 6th. Nothing special but pleasant enough


----------



## classfolkphile

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Walter and Szell have been mentioned. I would suggest Blomstedt and Barenboim both with the Staatskapelle.
> 
> Try the Kletzki 6th. It should be on the spotify. Post what you think. I like the Kletzki cycle quite a lot with the exception of the 6th.


I listened to the Barenboim/SB B6 last night: it's great, and with wonderful sound. I heard them do it live at Carnegie Hall some years ago and while I truly enjoyed it, I couldn't get the sound of the VPO in the same hall in the same season out of my head. And thus bypassed this recording. That was a mistake. Thank you.

Now to wade through the rest of the set.


----------



## Totenfeier

Listened to Walter/Columbia last night. Wondrous.


----------



## Star

Karajan in 1977 is as good as any. Don't forget Beecham although the recording is rather dim these days


----------



## hpowders

Best: Walter, Columbia Symphony and Toscanini, NBC Symphony, 1939.


----------



## Larkenfield

There are simply too many choices for anyone to ever agree on one. My favorite happens to be by Fritz Reiner with the CSO. It does not break the mood of the entire symphony, and its sound is benevolent, full of the joys of nature and goodwill wthout being saccharine or extreme in any one direction - just like I believe the immortal Beethoven intended.


----------



## Holden4th

This is also my favourite symphony. Three versions stand out for me.

Cluytens BPO (I was lucky enough to imprint on this one)

Walter Col SO 

Both are very similar in approach and I'd have a hard job picking between the two in a blind listening test.

The third choice which I value as equally as the other two is the Reiner. A great 'storm' in this recording.


----------



## Bill Cooke

First fell in love with this piece as a child sitting entranced in a theatrical showing of Walt Disney's FANTASIA. I currently only have one recording in my collection; it's Bohm's famous reading, which I've always been very satisfied with. However, this thread has gotten me interested in trying out other versions. From Spotify and YouTube, I've fallen in love with three versions in quick succession: Walter, Reiner and Dorati. Reiner appears to have the most exciting storm, and the Dorati is characterized by closer miking and stunning detail. And so... into the Amazon shopping cart they go! This forum is costing me a lot of money.


----------



## Holden4th

Haven't heard the Dorati, rectifying that now on Spotify.


----------



## Triplets

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Walter and Szell have been mentioned. I would suggest Blomstedt and Barenboim both with the Staatskapelle.
> 
> Try the Kletzki 6th. It should be on the spotify. Post what you think. I like the Kletzki cycle quite a lot with the exception of the 6th.


Not to be picky, but Blomstedt is with the Dresden Staakapelle, and Barenboim is the Berlin Staatkapelle


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Not to be picky, but it's "Staa*ts*kapelle" as Oldhoosierdude says.


----------



## Jamie Rose

It does feel like there's a lot of uncharted territory with that movement. There was potential to go many places with it, but, alas, it ended when it did.


----------



## snowyflow

I have been enjoying Karajan's 1963 recording with Berlin Phil. As for the piece itself, I'll never get tired of listening to the 2nd movement. Someone in this thread has mentioned a better Karajan's 1977 version, I'm going to check it out.


----------



## Merl

Bill Cooke said:


> ..... Dorati is characterized by closer miking and stunning detail. And so... into the Amazon shopping cart they go! This forum is costing me a lot of money.


Dorati's 5th, 6th and 7th with the LSO are great recordings. It's a shame that his full cycle with the RPO (now long out of print) was so mediocre. It took me ages to get a vinyl rip of that cycle and it was such a disappointment.


----------



## Beet Lover

So many beauties in this work. The two chords ending the 2nd movement and the final movement are virtually the same, with one soft and one loud. This is just yet another example of how Beethoven would unify a work so so subtlely. I had listened to and known this work for a good 22 years before I realized that the other day.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Thoughts on this recording of the Sixth?


----------



## Merl

Fritz Kobus said:


> Thoughts on this recording of the Sixth?


Not bad but I prefer his live LSO 6th.


----------



## KenOC

Merl said:


> Not bad but I prefer his live LSO 6th.


More generally, I prefer the LSO Live cycle overall to Haitink's earlier Concertgetbouw cycle.


----------



## DavidA

snowyflow said:


> I have been enjoying Karajan's 1963 recording with Berlin Phil. As for the piece itself, I'll never get tired of listening to the 2nd movement. Someone in this thread has mentioned a better Karajan's 1977 version, I'm going to check it out.


Best of all his Karajan's 1959s 6th with Philarmonia


----------



## KenOC

Merl said:


> Not bad but I prefer his live LSO 6th.


I took the opportunity to listen to Haitink's live Pastoral with the London SO, from his complete cycle released in 2006. I've always been a huge fan of Walter's early stereo release on Columbia (now Sony). But I think this as close as any version is likely to get to rivaling it, in my affections at least.

Walter, though not sounding a bit tired, enjoys his walk in the woods as more of an amble than a stroll. And of course, nobody's likely to out-gemütlichkeit him or offer better, more congenial company.

Haitink, bitten by the HIP bug late in his life, is a touch more vigorous - not a power-walk, certainly, but he places one foot ahead of the other with some purpose. His orchestra performs with admirable precision, certainly more so than Walter's old Columbia band, and as a result many fine details become apparent*. Also, the engineering and recording are definitely of a newer era - listen to the tympani thwacks in the storm!

Best of all, Haitink, like Walter, is musical everywhere. His is one of the best Pastorals I've heard in terms of performance and certainly sonics. His Beethoven cycle demonstrates the same virtues throughout and can be easily recommended. At Amazon the boxed CD cycle seems OOP, but the MP3s are available at a decent price.

*Of course, some of those new details may come from Haitink's use of Bärenreiter's recent edition of the symphonies.


----------



## Merl

KenOC said:


> I took the opportunity to listen to Haitink's live Pastoral with the London SO, from his complete cycle released in 2006. I've always been a huge fan of Walter's early stereo release on Columbia (now Sony). But I think this as close as any version is likely to get to rivaling it, in my affections at least.
> 
> Walter, though not sounding a bit tired, enjoys his walk in the woods as more of an amble than a stroll. And of course, nobody's likely to out-gemütlichkeit him or offer better, more congenial company.
> 
> Haitink, bitten by the HIP bug late in his life, is a touch more vigorous - not a power-walk, certainly, but he places one foot ahead of the other with some purpose. His orchestra performs with admirable precision, certainly more so than Walter's old Columbia band, and as a result many fine details become apparent*. Also, the engineering and recording are definitely of a newer era - listen to the tympani thwacks in the storm!
> 
> Best of all, Haitink, like Walter, is musical everywhere. His is one of the best Pastorals I've heard in terms of performance and certainly sonics. His Beethoven cycle demonstrates the same virtues throughout and can be easily recommended. At Amazon the boxed CD cycle seems OOP, but the MP3s are available at a decent price.
> 
> *Of course, some of those new details may come from Haitink's use of Bärenreiter's recent edition of the symphonies.


I bought all the Haitink LSO live discs separately, paying about £1.30 per disc at the time. In this way the whole cycle only cost me about £8. An absolute bargain plus i got the Triple Concerto and Leonore 2. I really like thst cycle. Its much better than his 2 previous cycles.


----------



## perdido34

I bought the Haitink/LSO boxed set of SACDs. I love the performances, and the sound is pretty good, despite the obvious acoustic dryness of the hall.


----------



## Josquin13

I agree with others that Haitink's 6th with the LSO live is preferable to his earlier Concertgebouw 6th from the late 1980s, which I found weak. Although Haitink's 5th from the RCO cycle is one of the finest 5ths I've heard--it's a very powerful, insightful performance (right up there with Eugen Jochum's LSO 5th, another favorite of mine).

I find the verisimilitude of nature sounds in Beethoven's "Pastorale" 6th symphony to be remarkable--especially considering that they were created by a composer that was nearly deaf. Although we shouldn't forget that Beethoven's hearing didn't bother him as much when he got away to the countryside, as he could hear better in the country. Therefore, he must have taken great pleasure in all the sounds that he could hear during his nature walks.

This is the only symphony where Beethoven actually tells us what each movement is about in words. There's little guessing required of us about his intent. As Beethoven vividly paints each scene with specific sounds.

With that in mind, there are a number of key 'scenic' moments in the "Pastorale" Symphony to listen for, in order to distinguish one performance from another:

1. For example, the sounds of birds chirping in the 1st movement become distorted when a conductor takes the movement at a brisk pace, as Carlos Kleiber does. With Kleiber, the chirping is so brief--due to his rushed tempo--that it's as if you're riding on a bicycle or sprinting through the countryside, rather than taking a walk. We do hear the birds, but it's in a momentary blur as we speed by. Riccardo Chailly makes the same miscalculation on his Leipzig Gewandhaus recording. That can't be what Beethoven wanted. On the other hand, Otto Klemperer allows us to hear the chirping birds--although he's slower than Beethoven's metronome markings, and there is a sense that he drags the music at times. Rene Leibowitz is closer to Beethoven's actual markings for the first movement, and manages to bring out both a sense of exhilaration & delight at the "arrival" in the splendor of the countryside--Beethoven's "awakening of cheerful feelings on arrival in the countryside"--without losing the sense that it is a walk, and not a bicycle race. But unfortunately Leibowitz's orchestral balances are out of wack & the chirping birds are barely even noticeable or audible, as they get almost completely drowned out. That can't be what Beethoven wanted.

Rene Leibowitz: 



Carlos Kleiber: 



Otto Klemperer: 




Bruno Walter negotiates this opening movement exceptionally well, IMO: 




2. Secondly, if a conductor takes the "babbling brook" scene too slowly in the second movement, with a relaxed tempo (as Bruno Walter does), the sounds of flowing, moving water are diminished or even lost. Yehudi Menuhin talked about the need for the movement to be "Andante molto moto--i.e., moderately slow but with very much movement-- "without the least deviation from the even flow of the stream." Conversely, if a conductor takes the brook scene briskly, a sense of tranquillity in nature is lost. So, it's a difficult balance to pull off, since Beethoven obviously wants the music to sound like a "babbling" brook in continuous movement, and yet there must also be a sense of tranquility by the brook. Nikolas Harnoncourt & the COE negotiate this movement perfectly, in my opinion, as Harnoncourt achieves both the continuous sounds of a babbling brook, and yet there is a sense of tranquillity and stillness at the same time:






As I recall, Yehudi Menuhin gets the movement well, too, with the Sinfonia Varsovia (but unfortunately, it's not on YT, and I haven't listened to Menuhin's 6th in a number of years): https://www.allmusic.com/album/beethoven-symphonies-nos-2-6-mw0001382755

Granted, Bruno Walter and the Columbia Symphony Orchestra do sound excellent in this movement, on first impression, but in comparison to Harnoncourt, Walter doesn't achieve the same degree of continuous flowing movement in the sounds of the brook. Instead, he slightly drags the music, with a tempo that's too relaxed, and as a result, there's a sense of "deviation" from the even flow of the water that Menuhin cautions against (the YT page provides a link for you to click directly onto the Andante movement): 




3. Thirdly, it's essential that in the 3rd movement conductors don't handle the "merry folk" and their country dance too perfunctorily. Surely, Beethoven meant for this to be a spirited rustic dance, a festive celebration? With Sir Colin Davis & the Staatskapelle Dresden, it's hard to imagine a less spirited dance. I find it sluggish. Even Karl Böhm is a bit more spirited in the country dance.

Sir Colin Davis & the Staatskapelle Dresden: 



Karl Böhm & the Vienna Philharmonic: 




For those interested in hearing what Beethoven actually had in mind for this movement, here it is played according to the composer's metronome markings, by Leibowitz & the Royal Philharmonic (again, you'll have to click on the 3rd movement): 




Bernard Haitink & the LSO are good here too (if a tad more brisk than Beethoven's metronome marking): 




4a. Fourthly, there must be a sense of panic at the opening of the 4th movement, a feeling that the "country folk" are nervously hurrying to find shelter to get out of harm's way as the storm approaches, just before the arrival of the torrential rains and sweeping winds and thunder claps heard directly over head. Some conductors take this passage too slowly, IMO, and lose the sense of urgency.

Sir Charles Mackerras gets it well, albeit in a more HIP vein: 




Evgeny Mravinsky gets it very well (there is a link on the webpage to click directly to the 4th movement): 




Paavo Jaarvi has a good sense of it too: 




Harnoncourt takes the opening a tad more slowly, and it doesn't work quite as well, IMO: 




In contrast, Carla Maria Giulini and the Philharmonia, & Otto Klemperer are much too plodding at the opening--there isn't enough sense of urgency to get out of harm's way, and they drag the music, especially Klemperer:










4b. Some conductors also temper the drums in this movement--such as Bruno Walter--to the extent that the thunder remains too distant throughout the movement: which is a mistake, since it defeats the whole purpose & meaning of the final movement, where the "country folk" give "thanks to the Godhead" for having spared them--in biblical terms--by delivering them to safety from such a dangerous storm. If the storm were otherwise, why would the country folk have any reason to "thank the Godhead" in the 5th movement? for delivering them from a mild summer's rain that didn't pose any real danger to their lives? Obviously, that can't be what Beethoven wanted.

Haitink doesn't make that mistake on his LSO live recording, but rather lets the timpani play full out, and as a result, the drums really do sound like overhead thunder claps, and are all the more terrifying for it. I think that's essential. Fritz Reiner & the Chicago Symphony are arguably even more terrifying. Granted, there are parts of the storm where the rumblings of distant thunder are called for, such as in the lead up to the people running for shelter, and after the worst of the storm has passed. But the way that Haitink & Reiner handle the immediacy of the storm is very appropriate, as the movement needs to be violent and frightening for the final movement to make any sense. Which of course adds further to the importance of not taking the country folk's panic in the face of the approaching storm too slowly, as there must be a sense of them hurrying to safety at the opening of the movement.

Fritz Reiner & the Chicago Symphony Orchestra: 



Bernard Haitink & the London Symphony Orchestra live: 



Nikolaus Harnoncourt & the Chamber Orchestra of Europe: 




Whereas on Bruno Walter's version with the Columbia S.O., the drums are kept too much in the background, & the strings & brass dominate at the height of the storm. To the extent that it makes me wonder if the Columbia sound engineers weren't partly responsible?: 




In conclusion, I suspect that the best performances of Beethoven's Pastorale Symphony come from conductors that are avid nature lovers, like Beethoven. I can't speak for Haitink, Reiner, & Harnoncourt in this regard, but Pablo Casals certainly fits the bill, as he was an outdoors enthusiast, beginning each day with a nature walk, and the 6th that he recorded in 1969 in the beautiful Marlboro, Vermont countryside (while staying on Rudolf Serkin's milk farm) is exceptional, & one of the best: https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Nos-1-6/dp/B00000DSDS.

My two cents.


----------



## EdwardBast

Josquin13 said:


> My two cents.


Two cents? More like three fifty!

I really like your critique based on nature and other programmatic details! Good idea.


----------



## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> As I recall, Yehudi Menuhin gets the movement well, too, with the Sinfonia Varsovia (but unfortunately, it's not on YT, and I haven't listened to Menuhin's 6th in a number of years):


Yep, Menuhin's 6th is excellent. Probably the best performance of his underrated cycle.


----------



## Josquin13

I wanted to add one more very fine Beethoven Pastoral recording to my above list--from Carla Maria Giulini and the Los Angeles Philharmonic on DG. IMO, it's much better than Giulini's earlier EMI account, as he's changed his thinking on the score (in several places), and doesn't fall prey to some of the flaws in his earlier performance--such as dragging the music too slowly at the opening of the Storm scene in the 4th movement. I think this is a great 6th:






(I expect Giulini's later La Scala 6th might be worthwhile too, but I haven't heard it.)


----------



## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> (I expect Giulini's later La Scala 6th might be worthwhile too, but I haven't heard it.)


Its pretty disappointing actually. That La Scala 1-8 cycle doesn't do a lot for me. Its a bit slow and languid for my tastes but he does a decent 8th and 5th, to his credit. The 7th is bloody awful, tho.


----------



## Josquin13

Merl said:


> Its pretty disappointing actually. That La Scala 1-8 cycle doesn't do a lot for me. Its a bit slow and languid for my tastes but he does a decent 8th and 5th, to his credit. The 7th is bloody awful, tho.


Thanks. I've avoided the La Scala set up until now, and I think I'll continue to do so. The slowness was what ruined his EMI 6th for me. He walks a fine line between bringing more orchestral detail into focus and flat out dragging the music. He's faster on the DG 6th recording. I wonder if Giulini was generally faster during his Los Angeles years? I don't know those DG recordings well, but I did like his DG Pastoral quite a bit. I know what you talking about in regards to his later Sony period. Some of what I've heard was extremely slow--and people complain about Celibidache... Celi is often faster than Giulini. Of course, it can work well in certain music, but not across the board. & certainly not in Beethoven's most Handel-influenced symphony, the 7th. Even so, Giulini was a great conductor. There are recordings by him that I treasure--such as his CSO Mahler 9th, late Bruckner in Vienna, Verdi, & Beethoven Piano Concertos 1, 3, & 5 with A.B. Michelangeli.


----------



## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> Thanks. I've avoided the La Scala set up until now, and I think I'll continue to do so. The slowness was what ruined his EMI 6th for me. He walks a fine line between bringing more orchestral detail into focus and flat out dragging the music. He's faster on the DG 6th recording. I wonder if Giulini was generally faster during his Los Angeles years? I don't know those DG recordings well, but I did like his DG Pastoral quite a bit. I know what you talking about in regards to his later Sony period. Some of what I've heard was extremely slow--and people complain about Celibidache... Celi is often faster than Giulini. Of course, it can work well in certain music, but not across the board. & certainly not in Beethoven's most Handel-influenced symphony, the 7th. Even so, Giulini was a great conductor. There are recordings by him that I treasure--such as his CSO Mahler 9th, late Bruckner in Vienna, Verdi, & Beethoven Piano Concertos 1, 3, & 5 with A.B. Michelangeli.


Speedwise, the La Scala cycle is very Klemperer-esque thus (like Klemperer) the 7th drags like hell and the 4th is pretty joyless too. Don't get me wrong it's not all bad but I suspect Ludwig would be perpetually spinning in his grave if he heard such pedestrian performances. I'm partway thru the Karajan '5th cycle' at the moment (live Japan 77) and its slaughtering that Giulini set (review to come).


----------



## perdido34

There is an excellent youtube video of #6 by Sawallisch/Philadelphia. Sawallisch also recorded the symphony with Amsterdam, but I haven't heard that one.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Of the many I have heard, there are five that are in a class of their own:














































Other good ones: De Sabata, Erich Kleiber, Weingartner, Bernstein/VPO, Steinberg, Pfitzner, Casals, Monteux


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

There's something about the feeling, phrasing and flow of the music that makes Walter's interpretation with the Columbia Symphony so right for me.


----------



## flamencosketches

^My dad gave me that on vinyl when I was home over the holidays, unfortunately I left it there, but I listened to it a few times while I was there. Hoping to get him to mail it to me when he can. It really is great. 

I'm listening to Karajan/Berlin's version right now, the second movement, and right where the bird cadenzas come in a hummingbird just flew up to my window  that was pretty cool.


----------



## DavidA

I'd heard great things about Bohm's DG Pastoral but when I bought it I was disappointed as it seemed a bit square to ne


----------



## Merl

DavidA said:


> I'd heard great things about Bohm's DG Pastoral but when I bought it I was disappointed as it seemed a bit square to ne


It's a very 'traditional' performance but I must admit it's one of my favourites. He shapes it beautifully. I can handle the 6th in many different ways (I love Scherchen and Pletnev racing thru the countryside as much as I like Asahina and Klemperer stumbling thru the undergrowth) but Bohm's is a classic reading. It doesn't drag like his 5th or 7th. His 9th is excellent too.


----------



## ccar

*Toscanini in love*

"Toward the end of the first movement, at the big fortissimo that just precedes the clarinet and basson's bars I felt a sort of confusion. I closed my eyes to get a grip of myself. Didn't it seem to you Ada that the Andante followed as if in a dream? Oh my holy creature, love me, adore me, be mine forever … You can't imagine how moved I was to know you were in the hall amid the multitude, with your beautiful heart beating in unison with mine ... Yesterday, I felt that you were guiding my arm! … "*

We may imagine these words coming from some young musician in love but it would be very difficult to believe this is actually a letter written by the 70 year-old Toscanini to his lover Ada Mainardi the day after a concert at the Salzburg Festival in August 1937. The concert was one of the first international NBC broadcasts and in spite of the sound limitations we can feel how Toscanini put all his passion and fierceness into this performance of the Pastoral.






*(Harvey Sachs, The Letters of Arturo Toscanini, UCP 2002)


----------



## DavidA

Anyone wanting a standard Pastorale could do much worse than Kubelik's DG performance.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

DavidA said:


> Anyone wanting a standard Pastorale could do much worse than Kubelik's DG performance.


Oddly enough, until I read your post, I was about to say exactly the same.


----------



## PeterF

I really do like this one a great deal.

My favorite version is a toss up between Monteux / Vienna and Walter / Columbia S.O.

I also like Jochum / London


----------



## BlackAdderLXX

Well, after reading this thread and a couple of others like it I'm giving this work a listen for the first time in 30 years. I'm blown away by the beauty of it. I wasn't sure if I would ever really like it because my then college brain had filed it away as 'eh, mellow' as compared to the fifth. But this symphony is majestic. I gave it a first listen with Bruno Walter since most folks seem to rave about his recording of it. Now I'm listening through again with Cluytens who is also doing a fantastic job. So thanks to everyone for the encouragement to give this a go. It has been good so far. And there seems to be a lot of interest in LvB's symphonies right now, hopefully there can be more discussion in this thread since there has been so much already.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Naxos has a free download of No. 6 this month. You have to sign up for the newsletter. The Drahos Beethoven cycle is quite a good listen.


----------



## flamencosketches

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Naxos has a free download of No. 6 this month. You have to sign up for the newsletter. The Drahos Beethoven cycle is quite a good listen.
> View attachment 134634


I downloaded this the other day but only have heard the 1st so far. I'll be listening to this Pastorale later. I've been spending time with recordings by Böhm/Vienna & Walter/Columbia SO (which I greatly prefer).


----------



## Bigbang

flamencosketches said:


> I downloaded this the other day but only have heard the 1st so far. I'll be listening to this Pastorale later. I've been spending time with recordings by Böhm/Vienna & Walter/Columbia SO (which I greatly prefer).


Oops, wrong post. I was referring to the Solti fourth but I sent to thread on the fourth. Now the Solti analog sixth is good by the way. As for your speed limit in the first movement, have your heard Karajan? Ziman? Not exactly first choices for many but faster than those you brought up.

I deleted part of original post as to avoid confusion on 4th and 6th symphonies.


----------



## flamencosketches

Bigbang said:


> Well, I just listen to Solti and I prefered the first one from the 1970's over the 1980's. Frankly I am ready to admit I like it over Bohm and Walter but will compare in the days to come. As for your speed limit in the first movement, have your heard Karajan? Ziman? Not exactly first choices for many but faster than those you brought up.


Karajan, yes. I actually posted in this thread about listening to it back in January of last year. But I don't think I've heard it since. I am actually waiting on the '77 Karajan cycle in the mail, so I'll definitely revisit the Pastorale when I receive it. Zinman, no I have not heard. I'm not a huge fan of his in general though he's behind at least a couple of recordings that I love. I'll try and check out his Beethoven 6th. Still need to hear the Chailly too, the notorious "speed demon" (in Beethoven at least, nothing else).


----------



## Bigbang

flamencosketches said:


> Karajan, yes. I actually posted in this thread about listening to it back in January of last year. But I don't think I've heard it since. I am actually waiting on the '77 Karajan cycle in the mail, so I'll definitely revisit the Pastorale when I receive it. Zinman, no I have not heard. I'm not a huge fan of his in general though he's behind at least a couple of recordings that I love. I'll try and check out his Beethoven 6th. Still need to hear the Chailly too, the notorious "speed demon" (in Beethoven at least, nothing else).


As I stated after this post went up I was referring to Solti 4 symphony not his 6th. The rest is about the 6th. I only have Karajan 63, and digital (80's) and so I would have to stream that one (77) but I think the 63 is fastest one of the 3. Personally his versions do not bother me that much as they are still the berliners all the way.


----------



## flamencosketches

Bigbang said:


> As I stated after this post went up I was referring to Solti 4 symphony not his 6th. The rest is about the 6th. I only have Karajan 63, and digital (80's) and so I would have to stream that one (77) but I think the 63 is fastest one of the 3. Personally his versions do not bother me that much as they are still the berliners all the way.


Yeah, they all sound pretty similar interpretively, I don't think I'll be collecting them all by any means. I picked the '77 because I liked the sound quality slightly better. I haven't heard any of Solti's Beethoven but it sounds like his '70s 4th is supposed to be pretty good, then? I'll have to check it out.


----------



## Joachim Raff

My 1st Choice:









Listened to a few, but this one does it for me with Bohm a close 2nd.


----------



## Bigbang

flamencosketches said:


> Yeah, they all sound pretty similar interpretively, I don't think I'll be collecting them all by any means. I picked the '77 because I liked the sound quality slightly better. I haven't heard any of Solti's Beethoven but it sounds like his '70s 4th is supposed to be pretty good, then? I'll have to check it out.


If you want but you have plenty. I like Solti and his two Chicago 9th are in my top choices.


----------



## Merl

Bigbang said:


> As I stated after this post went up I was referring to Solti 4 symphony not his 6th. The rest is about the 6th. I only have Karajan 63, and digital (80's) and so I would have to stream that one (77) but I think the 63 is fastest one of the 3. Personally his versions do not bother me that much as they are still the berliners all the way.


I like Solti's first cycle a lot. The 9th is particularly good. His 2nd set wasn't an improvement but it was hardly bad, by any means. He just did it much better 1st time round.


----------



## staxomega

Are there any *must hear* performances made after the 90s? Not at period practice tempos and with full orchestra.

Either 80s or 90 is where I left off with my interest in new Beethoven symphony recordings. I heard this for the first time in what must be 5 years (or whenever the Toscanini 1939 cycle Immortal Performances reissue came out) performed by Gunter Wand and fell in love with it all over again.

Ivan Fischer and Budapest maybe?


----------



## Axter

I like Karajan’s 80th cycle with BPO and although quite different Solti’s 70 cycle with CSO.
One performance that I enjoyed was in concert, VPO, Barenboim in Vienna. Not sure whether there is any live recording of it.


----------



## perdido34

Haitink's LSO series is terrific, and it's recorded in multichannel if you have an SACD player.


----------



## CnC Bartok

I have found that the majority of period instrument/HIP recordings I have just seem too fast and hectic, although Krivine does make it all seem fresh and happy, rather than a sweaty health-obsessed morning training run through the woods. I tend to go for my traditional favourites - Cluytens, Jochum, and here especially Kletzki. I used to like the famed Bohm recording, but I find myself less enthusiastic than once I was.


----------



## DavidA

It is interesting that the latest biography of Beethoven by Swafford puts the metronome markings for the Pastorale as far too fast. One problem is that Beethoven never actually heard them and apparently hearing something in your head is always slower than when it is actually played. So all his metronome markings need to be taken down a few notches and certainly the pastoral a few more


----------



## SixFootScowl

The Pastorale is not my favorite Beethoven symphony, but its uniqueness among the nine is reason enough to treasure it.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

This is my least favourite Beethoven symphony, but still a great work as all of Beethoven's symphonies are.
I would go for the Celibidache recording with the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra. Fast renderings ruin it for me. I cannot stand anything on period instruments or anything close to the much misunderstood Beethoven original metronome markings.


----------



## annaw

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> This is my least favourite Beethoven symphony, but still a great work as all of Beethoven's symphonies are.
> I would go for the Celibidache recording with the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra. Fast renderings ruin it for me. I cannot stand anything on period instruments or anything close to the much misunderstood Beethoven original metronome markings.


As it happens, just a moment ago I finished listening to Immerseel's Pastorale - on period instruments and rather quick. Found it quite marvellous, though .

I love Pastorale because of its programme and Beethoven's realisation of it. Really joyful work in my opinion and certainly one of my favourite ones among his symphonies.


----------



## AClockworkOrange

My favourite Pastorale is Otto Klemperer’s recording with the Philharmonia. I love his interpretation and tempi, the traditional seating/division in the Orchestra (which makes listening through headphones delightful) and his positive treatment of the woodwinds really make the performance stand out to me.

Other recordings I really enjoy include Wand, Kletzki and Monteux. There are others of course but these are the first ones which come to mind.


----------



## Merl

DavidA said:


> It is interesting that the latest biography of Beethoven by Swafford puts the metronome markings for the Pastorale as far too fast. One problem is that Beethoven never actually heard them and apparently hearing something in your head is always slower than when it is actually played. So all his metronome markings need to be taken down a few notches and certainly the pastoral a few more


That's one man's personal opinion and is not backed up by any research, apart from the ridiculous (and now thoroughly trashed) Smithsonian paper which uses mathematical equations as the basis for this argument.


----------



## DavidA

Merl said:


> That's one man's personal opinion and is not backed up by any research, apart from the ridiculous (and now thoroughly trashed) Smithsonian paper which uses mathematical equations as the basis for this argument.


It's his opinion as a composer. I found it interesting in that he said that when he put in metronome markings to his own works they were invariably too fast when he actually heard them played as the mind does not make allowance for things like acoustic and players breathing, etc.. He said he always had to take his own markings down a couple of notches and he found the same with most of Beethoven's. So it's a personal opinion but one backed up by personal experience.


----------



## annaw

Only objective thing we know are Beethoven’s metronome markings and everything beyond that seems to be largely subjective. For instance, if all my imprints are mid- or fast-paced, then „too quick“ might have an entirely different meaning for me than for someone whose imprints are Klemperer and Furtwängler. This is absolutely not objective.

We know that Beethoven wasn’t deaf his whole life. We should assume that he either simply didn’t get an experience of tempos in his mind being slower than in reality or decided to dismiss it as unimportant. Also, is there any difference between the tempos of his earlier and later works? If there’s not, I don’t see how one can prove that his understanding of tempo changed as his hearing worsened, unless that's proved in some other way. It would certainly make sense that his understanding of tempos worsened but considering his musical capabilities even in his old age, I wouldn’t reject the possibility that he was in some respects simply a huge exception.


----------



## DavidA

annaw said:


> Only objective thing we know are Beethoven's metronome markings and everything beyond that seems to be largely subjective. For instance, if all my imprints are mid- or fast-paced, then „too quick" might have an entirely different meaning for me than for someone whose imprints are Klemperer and Furtwängler. This is absolutely not objective.
> 
> We know that Beethoven wasn't deaf his whole life. We should assume that he either simply didn't get an experience of tempos in his mind being slower than in reality or decided to dismiss it as unimportant. Also, is there any difference between the tempos of his earlier and later works? If there's not, I don't see how one can prove that his understanding of tempo changed as his hearing worsened, unless that's proved in some other way. It would certainly make sense that his understanding of tempos worsened but considering his musical capabilities even in his old age, I wouldn't reject the possibility that he was in some respects simply a huge exception.


I think the important thing to bear in mind is that he didn't actually get the metronome until he was pretty well deaf and so while his markings should be obviously considered they shouldn't be taken too literally. One has to allow for the fact that while he could see the thing he couldn't actually hear the music. He put the metronome markings in for his symphonies after his hearing loss.


----------



## dko22

There are of course hugely different approaches to this work. If, like me, you regard the overwhelming majority as far too fast and with little romantic feeling then the list becomes much shorter. Recordings by the likes of Furtwängler, Boehm and Celibidache are all justly famous but all have curious mannerisms somewhere or other. The most consistently satisfying I know of which is almost entirely without irrtiations is Kurt Sanderling's.

As with one or two others here, the Pastoral is by far my favourite Beethoven symphony -- it contains sublime melodies from a composer in whose orchestral works, they can be in short supply, the orchestration is more subtle than any of the others and the whole effect is of a symphony which has a curiously timeless quality if conductors can understand that and stop pandering to tedious stylistic experiments.


----------



## Merl

DavidA said:


> I think the important thing to bear in mind is that he didn't actually get the metronome until he was pretty well deaf and so while his markings should be obviously considered they shouldn't be taken too literally. One has to allow for the fact that while he could see the thing he couldn't actually hear the music. He put the metronome markings in for his symphonies after his hearing loss.


Since this was written its come to light that Beethoven was not stone deaf, even in his very late years (Theodore Albrecht is still translating the conversation books but there's enough written evidence up to now to prove that this is a now a myth).


----------



## Kreisler jr

I don't see why the Pastoral should be especially problematic wrt tempi/metronome markings. (There are more obvious candidates for obviously/relatively "way too fast" M.M. markings.) We knew all along that Beethoven's deafness was a long and slow process (although it was believed that he was basically "stone deaf" after ca. 1820). His last public performance was 1814 and by then he had considerable problems (but was still able to perform). This is about the time when Beethoven had worked with Mälzel (Wellington's Victory was composed 1813) and probably thought about/set the M.M. numbers for the first 8 symphonies.


----------



## Kreisler jr

I fail to see where people get the idea that the first movement should be a "walk" that was mentioned several times earlier in this thread. Even if the M.M. marking is rather fast (66 for bars, i.e. 132 for quarter notes) and the somewhat slower "traditional" readings are 20-30% slower more like 100-112, this would still be very fast walking to the quarter and very slow walking to the half note (typical "andante" is 70-90 bpm, to get to a fast andante around 90 one would have to slow down a lot, the slowest interpretations are there, but not the "typical" one). 

It's also called "awakening of cheerful feelings upon arrival in the country". Cheerful feeling is an inner emotional state, not a state of locomotion and we don't even know how the traveller arrives, if by carriage or riding a horse or (admittedly most likely) on foot. 
This is not facetious as there are a bunch of Lieder by Schubert and others where we do find the imitation of movement, both foot, horse or carriage (or other movements, like spinning or watermill wheels). And while I have not conducted a survey, I have a few in mind and none of them is like the Pastoral's first movment. Additionally, the 2nd movement is supposed to portray the movement of the brook, so Beethoven could have likewise clearly expressed specific movement in the first movement, but I don't think, he did.


----------

