# What is a well-loved piece that you can't stand?



## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Undoubtedly this has been posted before, but it never fails to bring some cool discussion.

Maybe 'can't stand' is a little strong, so I'll just say I dislike Shostakovich 5. I have a lot of respect for Shosty's approach and the execution is really unique in so many places - it has lots of cool tension and resolution moments - but I find it boring and difficult to even get through. Rossini once said of Wagner, "[he] has lovely moments but awful quarters of an hour." I now see how it's possible to feel a certain way about the whole while enjoying some moments within.

The first movement sounds to me like whales poorly imitating each other.


----------



## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

I have a couple-

*Violin Concerto No. 1- Bruch*. I've never understood what people like about it. For me it's boring and without true emotion..

*Canon in D- Pachelbel. * Of course I can't stand it anymore.

*The Four Seasons- Vivaldi. * Sequence after sequence after sequence. There are a couple of wonderful moments, but not worth the whole 45 minutes.

*The Blue Danube- Strauss II*. Same as above, except substitute 'sequence' with 'waltz melody.'


----------



## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Tchaikov6 said:


> I have a couple-
> 
> *Violin Concerto No. 1- Bruch*. I've never understood what people like about it. For me it's boring and without true emotion..
> 
> ...


I agree on the Vivaldi. To tell the truth, any figures from Autumn and Summer have never stuck with me. And too bad pop culture beat the Blue Danube horse to death, because if I didn't have to associate it with that iPad game 'Sheep Launcher' when I was 10, I might be able to listen to it more intently.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Mussorgsky: Pictures At An Exhibition
Mozart: Symphony No.40
Schumann: Symphony No.2
Schumann: Symphony No.4


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

There are certainly works I like more than others, but I can't think of any works people here would consider "well-liked" that I dislike even mildly. We had a thread about works that are overplayed causing members to no longer enjoy them, but I've never had that experience. I actually can't think of any work I have liked less with time while there are, of course, many that I have enjoyed more and more with time.


----------



## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Adagio for strings


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Rossini's:The Thieving magpie, bores me to tears.


----------



## musicrom (Dec 29, 2013)

Debussy's _Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun_, Messiaen's _Turangalîla-Symphonie_, and Fauré's _Pavane_ are among those that I don't particularly like. I can stand them and listen to them occasionally, but they're not what I like in classical music. I don't know why, but I'm not the biggest fan of French classical music, I guess. Not my style.


----------



## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

musicrom said:


> Debussy's _Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun_, Messiaen's _Turangalîla-Symphonie_, and Fauré's _Pavane_ are among those that I don't particularly like. I can stand them and listen to them occasionally, but they're not what I like in classical music. I don't know why, but I'm not the biggest fan of French classical music, I guess. Not my style.


I enjoy a lot of French classical music, but these three aren't works I particularly enjoy listening to. Some other popular works I don't enjoy are Mahler's symphonies 2 & 8 and Shostakovich's Symphony No. 15. I'm sure that there are others, but these are a few that came to mind quickly.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Beethoven - Symphony 9
Handel - Messiah

These are the two that immediately came to mind.


----------



## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

Telemann - just cannot enjoy to anything of his. 
Ditto Holst and D'Indy.
Wagner (ducks to avoid slings and arrows of outrage) - just don't like his sound.
So many others, either through over-exposure or because they don't resonate for me, including but not limited to:
Bolero by that Ravel chap
Canon by that Pachelbel guy
4'33" by that Cage bloke
...und so weiter


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

CypressWillow said:


> Telemann - just cannot enjoy to anything of his.
> Ditto Holst and D'Indy.
> Wagner (ducks to avoid slings and arrows of outrage) - just don't like his sound.
> So many others, either through over-exposure or because they don't resonate for me, including but not limited to:
> ...


I wouldn't necessarily call 4'33" well-loved, judging from the amount of ridicule that's been heaped on that "work" here on TC! :lol:


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I see no one has mentioned Für Elise yet. Or Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. If I never hear them again it will be too soon.


----------



## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Pachelbel Canon in D tops my list ... Für Elise is right up there, the first piano piece I had to learn - actually I think every beginning piano student has played that piece.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Bolero was already mentioned, but it deserves a double whamo.


----------



## Guest (Jun 16, 2017)

Since I only listen to what I like, nothing springs to mind. I mean, Handel's Messiah is well-loved, but as I've never heard it in full, I can hardly claim, with any legitimacy to dislike it.


----------



## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Rossini's:The Thieving magpie, bores me to tears.


Even the overture? And have you seen this...?


----------



## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

_Tristan und Isolde_. Death! Yearning! Endless yearning! Endless wangst!


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Pachelbel's Canon in D
Vivaldi 4 Seasons (though I love the pizza)
Nessun Bloody Dorma sung by every strangulated tenor this side of Naples.

That'll do for now...


----------



## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Minor Sixthist said:


> Undoubtedly this has been posted before, but it never fails to bring some cool discussion.
> 
> Maybe 'can't stand' is a little strong, so I'll just say I dislike Shostakovich 5. I have a lot of respect for Shosty's approach and the execution is really unique in so many places - it has lots of cool tension and resolution moments - but I find it boring and difficult to even get through. Rossini once said of Wagner, "[he] has lovely moments but awful quarters of an hour." I now see how it's possible to feel a certain way about the whole while enjoying some moments within.
> 
> The first movement sounds to me like whales poorly imitating each other.


I actually feel a lot the same about Shostakovich 5. I wouldn't say I can't stand it, but it does little for me, though I really like him as a composer, in general.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> Even the overture? And have you seen this...?


If I want to hear that peace I spin a CD with overtures.



SimonTemplar said:


> _Tristan und Isolde_. Death! Yearning! Endless yearning! Endless wangst!


But a stunning, is not the best love duet.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

The thread title is a bit contradictory -

If you can't stand a piece, the obviously it is not "well-loved" [by you, anyway]. :devil:


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Pat Fairlea said:


> Pachelbel's Canon in D
> Vivaldi 4 Seasons (though I love the pizza)
> Nessun Bloody Dorma sung by every strangulated tenor this side of Naples.
> 
> That'll do for now...


I love Nessun Dorma but I agree that it is cheapened by the wealth of aria albums from every singer under the sun.
My contribution to this thread: Handel's Messiah. I can't abide it.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Sonata said:


> My contribution to this thread: Handel's Messiah. I can't abide it.


But who _may_ abide?


----------



## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> The thread title is a bit contradictory -
> 
> If you can't stand a piece, the obviously it is not "well-loved" [by you, anyway]. :devil:


I don't see what's contradictory about it. There are tons of pieces a person could dislike that are well-loved. By well-loved, I just mean... lots of people like the piece. It has popularity among the community, among people in general 
(obviously not among all people, or most people, but enough that it has established itself as a popular piece.) There are obviously certain pieces that stand out because of their popularity; I'm sure you could see that.

Speaking of other pieces, I hate the Brandenburg concerti, 3rd in specific, with such a passion it makes me laugh when I hear it.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

I cannot say that I can't stand well-loved pieces, especially those already mentioned (I think, for instances, that Bolero & Pictures at an Exhibition are strokes of geniuses). What I can't stand are those pieces that are being overplayed at the expenses of others well deserving of our attention, and there is literally a plethora of them.

I blame marketing and shallow, dubious artistic motivation for this gross imbalance. And yes, Bruch's Violin Concerto I find bland myself, compared to, say, Goldmark's.


----------



## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

Faure's Pavane

Long story: When I was in elementary school, this piece always played on the radio at 3:30 PM, I think as an introduction for some program.

And what was I always doing 3:30 PM? Riding my parents' car home from school. It would always be hot and stuffy in the car, and I had the bad habit of reading on the car, which always led to a headache on the way home.

So, i've been conditioned to automatically get a headache every time I hear this piece. And I don't like/ am not familiar enough with Faure to try to de-condition myself. :lol:


----------



## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

brianvds said:


> I see no one has mentioned Für Elise yet.


In Taiwan, garbage trucks play Fur Elise to signal that it's time to take out the trash. A very fitting use for the piece.

Edit: Garbage trucks here (I'm visiting Taichung) also play Maiden's Prayer by Baranowska, an equally trashy piece.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Beethoven Symphonies 1,2,5,8 and 9.

Brahms Symphonies 2 and 3.

Bruckner all symphonies.

Sibelius Symphonies 2 and 4.

Tchaikovsky Symphonies 5 and 6.

All attempts at orchestral music by Liszt.

Many more. Time limited.


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Tchaikovsky piano concerto no. 1.

I like Faure's Pavane a lot, embarrassingly.


----------



## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

SimonTemplar said:


> _Tristan und Isolde_...Endless wangst!


Wangst is the WORST! Every time I have wangst, I have to see my doctor (or therapist).


----------



## distantprommer (Sep 26, 2011)

Others have already listed these; Für Elise at the top of my dislike list. Then Pachelbel Canon. Just about anything by Albinoni.


----------



## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

"Hate" is a stronger word than I'd use, but I don't like Mahler's music and he certainly seems well loved on here.


----------



## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Audience applause in non-appropriate moments (music still playing). Definitely can't stand that.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Rossini's:The Thieving magpie, bores me to tears.


For me, it goes much better on the Chandos sung-in-English set.


----------



## StraussCalman (Nov 19, 2016)

If "can't stand" means "don't like at all", probably 90% of Tchaikovskiy. 95% of Musorgskiy and 95% of Prokofiev.
Musorgskiy's music is too heavy and depressive. 
Tchaikovskiy was extremely talanted, probably a genius, but his music (except several pieces) sounds for me like an unfunny, sad joke. 
Prokofiev was extremely talanted too, but also he was a misanthrope, and his compositions are full of cynicism and dark sarcasm; they sound like a scoffing caricature about everything he saw and felt in his life. Never was fond of Tchaikovskiy, but Prokofiev was one of my favorite composers at least for 20 years, because of his awesome descriptive abilities.

If "can't stand" means "take hard", Vivaldi. Can't listen to his music much and often, its too impressive and tears apart.


----------



## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

I dislike the Flower Duet by Delibes and Adagio for Strings by Barber.


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

SimonTemplar said:


> _Tristan und Isolde_. Death! Yearning! Endless yearning! Endless wangst!


I no longer "Can't stand" Tristan Und Isolde" but I confess that I'll never love the opera the way so many classical music fans do. Even with my favorite recording (Bohm) and my favorite Isolde (Waltraude Meier) I may really enjoy parts of it....but I still struggle with those interminable "quarters of an hour" per Rossini


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Minor Sixthist said:


> I don't see what's contradictory about it. There are tons of pieces a person could dislike that are well-loved. By well-loved, I just mean... lots of people like the piece. It has popularity among the community, among people in general


I realize that, I was just being a smart-*ss...


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Orfeo said:


> What I can't stand are those pieces that are being overplayed at the expenses of others well deserving of our attention, and there is literally a plethora of them......


Agree completely - 
Tchaik Syms 4 and 5 are two examples, and of course - 
Rachm'n'ff Sym #2 - way over-programmed
so many other great works are deserving of program exposure...in place of these 3 overworked warhorses.

additionally - With all 3, over-exposure, as a performer is an issue with me, personally - if I never have to play any of them again, it would be fine...

also - another vote for the vastly over-rated "Taco-Belle" Canon...it's 15 minutes were up 200 years ago...


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Now days I love everything (hm...). I still think Satie is boring but in my youth I hated An Alpine Symphony by Strauss and Dvorak's Cello Concerto...I don't hate them anymore! I'm cured of hatred  I listen to a lot of music that's new to me, and listen to the whole piece even though I might doubt my enthusiasm.


----------



## Agamemnon (May 1, 2017)

Tchaikov6 said:


> *Violin Concerto No. 1- Bruch*. I've never understood what people like about it. For me it's boring and without true emotion..


Th great thing about this violin concerto is the battering of the violin.


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Sonata said:


> I love Nessun Dorma but I agree that it is cheapened by the wealth of aria albums from every singer under the sun.
> My contribution to this thread: Handel's Messiah. I can't abide it.


Yes, I'm with you on Handel's dreary Messiah. And Water Music.


----------



## Jacred (Jan 14, 2017)

Pachelbel's canon: not so much "can't stand" as "won't stand anymore after about a billion listens."


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Popular pieces that I don't listen to voluntarily:

Mozart: Eine Kleine Miene Meine Mo...zart.
Schubert: Symphony #9, "The Interminable." God, that 4th movement! Make it stop!!! 
Bizet: Symphony in C. No one says nothing as charmingly as a Frenchman.
Verdi: Il Trovatore. When barbecuing babies, pay attention.
Smetana: The Bartered Bride. Maybe you have to be Czech.
Rimsky-Korsakov: Scheherazade. For a sea voyage this long, they'd better have plenty of lemons in the galley (or, better yet, vodka).
Strauss: Ein Heldenleben. No one says nothing as pretentiously as a German.
Mahler: Symphonies #3 and #4. When spring marches bombastically in, love tells me that angels should not run bakeries.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Chopin's Polonaise, Nocturne Op. 9 no. 2, Minute waltz
Gorecki's Symphony No. 3
Schubert's Piano Quintet, last Piano Sonata
Bruch's Violin Concerto
Beethoven's Symphony 9, last movement
Puccini's Nessun Dorma
O Sole Mio
Verdi's La Donna e Mobile


----------



## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

Canon is horrible.
Barber's Adagio for strings- it's not terrible, but why does it have to be tacked on to every single Barber CD?? I'm not going to listen to Adagio for strings every time I wish to hear any other piece by Barber.


----------



## Rys (Nov 26, 2016)

Can't stand is a strong stance, although I roll my eyes whenever I hear Beethovens 5th in a non-professional way, or Eine Kleine nachtmusik in any way.


----------



## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

agree with a previous comment that "can't stand" is a strong stance, but what I don't like listening voluntarily but it's praised by majority is a final of Beethoven's last symphony and a symphony itself isn't very appealing to me.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Popular pieces that I don't listen to voluntarily:


Ha!! that's a good way to put it!!


----------



## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

helenora said:


> agree with a previous comment that "can't stand" is a strong stance, but what I don't like listening voluntarily but it's praised by majority is a final of Beethoven's last symphony and a symphony itself isn't very appealing to me.


I'm not a fan of the whole symphony either, but as it happens the finale is the one movement I enjoy rather than simply tolerate.


----------



## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

All of Mozart's symphonies bar about 4 that stick out as gems from the otherwise dull, same ol' chirpy, crowd-pleasing Wolfy. I adore his piano concertos and violin concertos like no other composer and his chamber music is sublime. But the symphonies irritate me beyond belief.


----------



## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Would say "Lark Ascending" Vaughan Williams. Don't hate it, just fed up of hearing it in every chart there is. Always nos 1 or 2 in Classic Hall of Fame. And played a lot on radio!


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Carmina Burana (Orff)

Ugh! Hedonistic tripe!


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Judith said:


> Would say "Lark Ascending" Vaughan Williams. Don't hate it, just fed up of hearing it in every chart there is. Always nos 1 or 2 in Classic Hall of Fame. And played a lot on radio!


I wish My radio station would play that more rather than Andrea Bocelli, various vocal arrangements of the Largo from the New World Symphony, Lang Lang's version of Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini. I turn the radio off when I get to those, and prefer silence.


----------



## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I wish My radio station would play that more rather than Andrea Bocelli, various vocal arrangements of the Largo from the New World Symphony, Lang Lang's version of Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini. I turn the radio off when I get to those, and prefer silence.


Huh, I've never heard the Largo as a vocal arrangement, and I'm tuned into the radio station often enough. I feel like it might be more interesting as a brass quintet arrangement, but it would have to be really good brass players.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Minor Sixthist said:


> Huh, I've never heard the Largo as a vocal arrangement


Dvorak 9/II used to be sold off as a "Spiritual" - aka "Goin' Home"


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Any of those famous songs from G & S stage works such as _The Pirates of Penzance_, _HMS Pinafore_, _The Mikado_ etc. Undoubtedly clever, but to me they are like fingernails on chalkboard.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Heck148 said:


> Dvorak 9/II used to be sold off as a "Spiritual" - aka "Goin' Home"


Just to note _Goin' Home _was adapted from the 9th Symphony in 1922 by a student of Dvorak, who also wrote the words. Since then, lots of people have thought it was a folk song that Dvorak filched for his symphony!


----------



## chromatic owl (Jan 4, 2017)

I used to dislike Robert Schumann to the extent that I actually got upset by the fact that his music was performed. Pieces which I particularly contempted were his Piano Quintet and Fourth Symphony. Then one day I heard some piano music on the radio that instantly made such a great impression on me that I could not move until it was over. It turned out to be _Gesänge der Frühe, op. 133_ by Robert Schumann. I thought there was some kind of mistake - no way this astonishing music could be a work of Schumann! But there was no mistake. After exploring more of his late compositions and finding them to be equally great I gave his earlier works another chance. And suddenly I heard in them some of the most sublime music ever written! 
For me this experience was a lesson in respect towards composers and artists in general. Whenever I now encounter music that I already heard and disliked I try to listen to it not as a whole but focusing on one aspect of it (harmony, polyphony, rhythm...). This leads often to interesting insights into the work rather than that it merely annoys me.


----------



## chromatic owl (Jan 4, 2017)

brianvds said:


> I see no one has mentioned Für Elise yet.


I can appreciate _Für Elise_ since I came to the conclusion that it was virtually conceived for the guitar so it is challenging to play it on the piano in a way that it does not sound like kitsch. Even the descending chromatic scale could sound expressive on the guitar while it seems boring and almost ridiculous on the piano.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Most Rachmaninoff - exceptions being _Symphonic Dances_ and _Isle of the Dead_
Any Mozart piano concerto
Almost any Strauss opera except _Salome_ and (maybe) _Rosenkavalier_.
Any early Verdi and most middle period operas


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Florestan said:


> Carmina Burana (Orff)
> 
> Ugh! Hedonistic tripe!


Agree..."Carmina" wears thin....again I've played it so many times, the repetitious sing-songy tunes get old pretty quickly. 
I do like The "Carmina" excerpts set for small wind ensemble, tho...very cool....


----------



## danj (Jun 1, 2017)

Florestan said:


> Carmina Burana (Orff)
> 
> Ugh! Hedonistic tripe!


Hear hear. I want to add this:

- Carmina Burana (Orff)
- Die Walküre (Act 3)


----------



## dillonp2020 (May 6, 2017)

I can stand most everything. That said, there are some popular pieces that I don't really like. Among them:
Pachelbel Canon in D
Bach Toccata and Fugue
Rimsky-Korsakov Flight of the Bumblebee
Ravel Bolero
Puccini "O mio babbino caro"
Beethoven Fur Elise
etc


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

helenora said:


> agree with a previous comment that "can't stand" is a strong stance, but what I don't like listening voluntarily but it's praised by majority is a final of Beethoven's last symphony and a symphony itself isn't very appealing to me.


Yes. Too bad Beethoven didn't offer a purely orchestral alternative for the fourth movement.


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

I've gotten tired of Für Elise because I've taught it to so many students over the years! I know it's hard to believe that I could actually dislike a piece by Beethoven, but that is indeed the case with Für Elise. Of course, I won't tell that to Beethoven when I travel back in time to propose to him! :lol:


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I've gotten tired of Für Elise because I've taught it to so many students over the years! I know it's hard to believe that I could actually dislike a piece by Beethoven, but that is indeed the case with Für Elise. Of course, I won't tell that to Beethoven when I travel back in time to propose to him! :lol:


Listen to it on a Broadwood reproduction. It may de-jade your interest.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bettina said:


> I've gotten tired of Für Elise because I've taught it to so many students over the years! I know it's hard to believe that I could actually dislike a piece by Beethoven, but that is indeed the case with Für Elise. Of course, I won't tell that to Beethoven when I travel back in time to propose to him! :lol:


I've never taught it or even played it and I was tired of it the first time I heard it.

I don't think Ludwig was very fond of Elise. Either that, or he was so hopelessly besotted that he couldn't concentrate.


----------



## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Alexander Nevsky. Yes; I know-- but it still sounds to me like second rate movie music.


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

1812 Overture
Please don't make me listen to it again ever


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Haydn man said:


> 1812 Overture
> Please don't make me listen to it again ever


And now, celebrating the victory of American forces over the British in the War of 1812, and concluding with the pealing of bells and cannon fire marking the final defeat of the British in New Orleans, we present... :lol:

Odd that it was written by a Russian, eh? And what's that French tune doing in there?


----------



## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

This poll has been about 90% making the obvious choices of hating the canon, Fur elise, Bolero, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. Notice that *nobody* likes these who is genuinely into classical music (it seems to me). Is there nothing more serious that people don't like and is widely _critically_ well respected? I chose all of Mozart's symphonies...


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Tallisman said:


> This poll has been about 90% making the obvious choices of hating the canon, Fur elise, Bolero, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. Notice that *nobody* likes these who is genuinely into classical music (it seems to me). Is there nothing more serious that people don't like and is widely _critically_ well respected? I chose all of Mozart's symphonies...


These kind of sweeping statements about other people's taste are usually wrong. This one as well. I like Ravel's Bolero, "in spite of" being an avid listener to classical music for over 30 years.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

_1812_, _Für Elise_, _Bolero_, the opening movement to _Eine Kleine Nachtmusik_ etc. etc. - surely this is just a classic case of familiarity breeding contempt? And for that one can blame it on the plethora of cheap compilation albums aimed at the casual listener who often has no desire to dig deeper, lack of imagination by any number of classical radio schedulers and also over-use on TV programmes, especially historical documentaries (at least in the case of the Mozart and Tchaikovsky).

If works like that were on the fringes of things rather than being tiresomely ubiquitous then they wouldn't garner so much dislike - simple as.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Pachelbel Canon. I used to play it after 10 weeks of summer vacation to remind me that back to teaching was imminently upon me.


----------



## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Yes. Too bad Beethoven didn't offer a purely orchestral alternative for the fourth movement.


exactly, it is the choir I don't like.


----------



## T Son of Ander (Aug 25, 2015)

Avid CM listener for many years, and I have to admit, somewhat embarassingly, that I do actually like the Pachelbel Canon.

As for things I don't like, well Carmen comes to mind and I don't much care for Verdi operas. Also Brahms. I've tried and tried to no avail, except for the Deutsche Requiem. Now that is awesome.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Yes. Too bad Beethoven didn't offer a purely orchestral alternative for the fourth movement.


I don't suppose it would work to perform it by omitting the voices. Maybe use solo instruments for the soloist voices? But it wouldn't be Beethoven, just our monkeying with Beethoven.


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Florestan said:


> I don't suppose it would work to perform it by omitting the voices. Maybe use solo instruments for the soloist voices? But it wouldn't be Beethoven, just our monkeying with Beethoven.


There's always Liszt's piano transcription, for anyone who wants to hear the work without the vocal parts!


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> I don't suppose it would work to perform it by omitting the voices. Maybe use solo instruments for the soloist voices? But it wouldn't be Beethoven, just our monkeying with Beethoven.


No. Beethoven needed to offer a purely orchestral alternative finale, perhaps a monumental theme with variations on the Ode to Joy theme.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven wrote a theme (in his sketches) intended for an instrumental finale to the 9th but didn't pursue the idea. He finally used it as the main theme in the finale of his Op. 132 quartet, there in A minor. Listening to how he treats it there suggests that a symphony finale based on the theme might have been pretty wild!


----------



## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven wrote a theme (in his sketches) intended for an instrumental finale to the 9th but didn't pursue the idea. He finally used it as the main theme in the finale of his Op. 132 quartet, there in A minor. *Listening to how he treats it there suggests that a symphony finale based on the theme might have been pretty wild!*


Just wild or wild and hairy? These details are important! :lol:


----------



## EarthBoundRules (Sep 25, 2011)

Normally I'm just indifferent to pieces that I can't appreciate. But when I used to like a piece and my tastes change, I tend to dislike it. There are a ton of classic pieces that I over-listened to that I can't stand now.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Opus 130 Cavatina movement by Beethoven, when tampered with by "orchestrators" who should have simply left this intimate piece for string quartet alone. Nobody else can duplicate the moving intimacy as Beethoven did for string quartet.

I hate those transcriptions!

There are walls to spray paint as an alternative.


----------



## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Tallisman said:


> This poll has been about 90% making the obvious choices of hating the canon, Fur elise, Bolero, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. Notice that *nobody* likes these who is genuinely into classical music (it seems to me). Is there nothing more serious that people don't like and is widely _critically_ well respected? I chose all of Mozart's symphonies...


I like "Bolero" and "Eine Kleine", I don't have a problem with "Für Elise" and I've been "genuinely into classical music" ever since I was 2 years old.


----------



## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Tallisman said:


> This poll has been about 90% making the obvious choices of hating the canon, Fur elise, Bolero, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. Notice that *nobody* likes these who is genuinely into classical music (it seems to me). Is there nothing more serious that people don't like and is widely _critically_ well respected? I chose all of Mozart's symphonies...


Shostakovich for the most part, all of Mahler's symphonies except 5 and 6, Bach's Brandenburg Concertos...


----------



## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Animal the Drummer said:


> I like "Bolero" and "Eine Kleine", I don't have a problem with "Für Elise" and I've been "genuinely into classical music" ever since I was 2 years old.


Some of the usual bon-bons don't bother me. Bolero, Eine kleine Nachtmusik, and even Pachelbel's Canon in D don't really bother me. It probably helps that I don't listen to classical radio and I don't watch many TV shows/movies. Maybe I would have fatigue from hearing those so often if I did. I actually quite like Bolero. It's very erotic! 

I can do without Handel's Messiah though. It's unavoidably overplayed and I don't really like it anyway.


----------



## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

arnerich said:


> Adagio for strings


I like Adagio for strings, I just don't listen to it too much or too often.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony is sooooooo boring. Goes absolutely nowhere.


----------



## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Merl said:


> Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony is sooooooo boring. Goes absolutely nowhere.


I don't disagree with your assessment of the Manfred Symphony at all, but I'm not sure if I would classify it as a well-loved piece. I know of at least a couple of Tchaikovsky fans who try to pretend that it doesn't exist!


----------



## T Son of Ander (Aug 25, 2015)

Wow, I love the Manfred!


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Bolero..........................


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

And another thing...
Mendelssohn's 4th Symphony. Talk about superficial....


----------



## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Art Rock said:


> These kind of sweeping statements about other people's taste are usually wrong. This one as well. I like Ravel's Bolero, "in spite of" being an avid listener to classical music for over 30 years.


Of course I was exaggerating but it seems like there's no discourse or debate when we all choose the more obvious ones


----------



## dillonp2020 (May 6, 2017)

Bettina said:


> There's always Liszt's piano transcription, for anyone who wants to hear the work without the vocal parts!


If I remember correctly, the piano transcription doesn't include a fourth movement to the ninth symphony.


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

dillonp2020 said:


> If I remember correctly, the piano transcription doesn't include a fourth movement to the ninth symphony.


Actually, the transcription does include all four movements, at least in the version played by Katsaris. Here's the whole thing - the fourth movement starts at around 40 minutes.


----------



## Troy (Apr 23, 2015)

I am going to sound like a Philistine but the one time I ever saw a 'Der Rosenkavalier' live I was completely bored. I love the duet that begins "Mir ist die Ehre widerfahren", and the final trio. But I spent the rest of the performance waiting for these two highlights, I'm going to see a MetinHD broadcast of it in a couple of weeks and I hope I've matured enough to actually appreciate it a bit more.

Also I've always thought that I didn't like Britten, but I was listening to a piece on ABC classic FM the other day and thought this is incredible, jarring in all the right ways, and then the announcer said it was the lacrimosa from Britten's War Requiem. Possibly a composer I have to listen to with new ears.


----------



## Scott in PA (Aug 13, 2016)

La donna e mobile.


----------



## dillonp2020 (May 6, 2017)

Bettina said:


> Actually, the transcription does include all four movements, at least in the version played by Katsaris. Here's the whole thing - the fourth movement starts at around 40 minutes.


Please accept my apologies, I suppose my memory doesn't serve me well. I had recalled reading in the booklet that came with my set of the Liszt Transcriptions performed by Katsaris that Liszt hadn't done a fourth movement. Again, I meant no disrespect. I suppose I must have hit my head recently, but then again I wouldn't remember.


----------



## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

Verdi's Requiem. So bombastic.

Ravel's orchestration of Pictures at an Exhibition. It's vastly inferior to the original piano version.


----------



## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I really love Sibelius' symphonies, but I can't stand his violin concerto, though everyone else seems to love it. For me it is just ok, nothing special at all.

Similarly, though I adore Prokofiev, for me, his third piano concerto is practically a throw away piece of music, though everyone loves it oh so much.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Some puzzling opinions here - especially about Beethoven. Go ahead and re-write Romeo and Juliet while you're at it. It's the tragedy part I hate.

Anyway: I like the Blue Danube because it reminds me of 2001:a space odyssey, and I like The Thieving Magpie because it reminds me of A Clockwork Orange. I must be a Kubrick fan! Oh - and I like Fur Elise because it pleasant and it's Beethoven.

Popular works I dislike? Probably Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique. I know he was a genius and all. He said so himself, repeatedly. But I just don't get what all the fuss is about. I cannot retain one theme, melody or even motif from the thing, except the _Dies irae_ theme and that's not really Berlioz is it? I don't exactly hate it. I just get next to nothing out of it.

Also, a lot of Mendelssohn I still find too frenetic. The dude needed to avoid coffee I'm thinking. His more serene works, A Midsummer Night's Dream, Hebrides, some of the Songs Without Words are great, but watch those allegros!


----------



## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Weston said:


> Some puzzling opinions here - especially about Beethoven. Go ahead an re-write Romeo and Juliet while you're at it. It's the tragedy part I hate.
> 
> Anyway: I like the Blue Danube because it reminds me of 2001:a space odyssey, and I like The Thieving Magpie because it reminds me of A Clockwork Orange. I must be a Kubrick fan! Oh - and I like Fur Elise because it pleasant and it's Beethoven.
> 
> ...


While I don't agree with you about Mendelssohn, I would agree with you about the Symphonie fantastique. I don't dislike it, but I've never found it to be all that memorable musically. I know many people love it though so it's just another case of people having vastly different tastes.

Speaking of _2001_, another well-loved (or famous at least) work that I find somewhat boring is Also sprach Zarathustra. Again, I don't dislike it, but it does not do much for me aside from the overplayed Sunrise. I'd much rather listen to The Blue Danube waltz to be honest. To me, The Blue Danube does not conjure up images of a movie. Instead, it conjures up images of Austria and it's "stuck in the 1860-70s" reputation.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Also sprach Zarathustra, if I never heard it again I would lose not one hour sleep over it.


----------



## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Verdi*

When asked this question my answer is still with the exception of _Falstaff_ the operas of Verdi 

One of my previous Verdi posts: http://www.talkclassical.com/23274-perverse-approach-opera.html?highlight=verdi#post403954


----------



## jenspen (Apr 25, 2015)

I thought I wouldn't be able to contribute this thread because I enjoy, or certainly have enjoyed, every well-loved piece the posters to this thread can't stand. The shame of it

I'll particularly mention only Handel's Messiah - brimful as it is with tuneful, passionately sincere and thrilling music set to some of the greatest words available to a composer in the English language.

So I thought hard. I came up with two pieces I didn't enjoy recently while listening to ABC Classic FM. They are examples of the sort of music I don't like - a Lizst piano something and an elaborate soprano aria by Gounod. What they had in common was an insincere, technically dazzling, show-off emptiness which are not distinguishing characteristics of most classical works which have survived.


----------



## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Can't stand is strong, but "The Planets" never did much for me.
I'm not a fan of organ music in general, so I don't find myself listening to Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I don't know if I can't stand it but I played Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition so much a few years back that I haven't listened to it since.


----------



## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Florestan said:


> I don't know if I can't stand it but I played Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition so much a few years back that I haven't listened to it since.


Oh, I love Pictures! And actually, playing it made me like the piece more, instead of what it sadly did for you...


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Letter Scene from Tchaikovsky's Eugene Onegin, especially as sung by Renée Fleming.

I have it and I would love to dump it, but why give my gardener a free copy?

For me, the music doesn't wear well as the Fourth Symphony and Piano Concerto No. 1 do.


----------



## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. Few things get me to turn off a radio quicker than that. Well, that and hearing the host say "Next, Dvorak!"


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Omicron9 said:


> Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. Few things get me to turn off a radio quicker than that. Well, that and hearing the host say "Next, Dvorak!"


Yes. This is FAR from Mozart at his best and is as close to sewing machine music as Mozart ever came.

I also agree about Dvorak(let's make him "accent-free"). His music gives me acne. Musical schmaltz.


----------



## keymasher (Nov 10, 2016)

Even as an amateur piano player, there are a couple of pieces that, even if I normally wouldn't have any qualms with the music, just seem impossible to escape. I think I can confidently say that I'd be perfectly content going the rest of my life without ever hearing: 

Beethoven's Pathetique sonata
Chopin's Ballade 1, op 10 no 5 "Black Keys" (this might deserve the top spot), op 25 no 11, Fantasie Impromptu
Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody no 2

Those are probably the biggest offenders in my book. La Campanella gets skipped over a lot too, but that probably has more to do with all of the work I sunk into when I was younger.


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I don't really dislike any of the usual evergreens; not enough to not want to hear them again. In the similar thread about pieces having been overplayed I referred to Chopin's works, which I've spoiled for myself.

I've just been visiting my father in England and he brought out a box from the attic containing the miniature scores of mine I thought were lost! Among them is Eine Kleine Nachtmusik - I have it in front of me now. I don't quite see how anyone can not like this serenade. It is full of inventive melody and the _Romanze_ is beautiful. You can only marvel at the mastery of his string writing.

My general theory is that people gravitate toward classical through these evergreens, listening to them a lot at the outset. Then when they move on to other works the evergreens are both overplayed and regarded as stuff for casual listeners.

Even then it's laughable how people can wax lyrical about some dreary Wagner dirge they've probably heard 10,000 times, as if the musical content is somehow more resistant to such repeated hearings. I guess with some works the in-club of listeners feel it's just better if the general listening public isn't involved or appreciative; in that way one's position as a sophisticated listener is 'confirmed'.


----------



## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Florestan said:


> I don't know if I can't stand it but I played Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition so much a few years back that I haven't listened to it since.


Am I the only one who is left slightly cold by Ravel's arrangement of Pictures at an Exhibition? I've listened to a few different recordings of it, but it's never made me that excited. I generally like Mussorgsky and I generally like Ravel. I'm not sure what the issue is, but maybe I ought to give Mussorgsky's piano version a try.


----------



## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Yes. This is FAR from Mozart at his best and is as close to sewing machine music as Mozart ever came.
> 
> I also agree about Dvorak(let's make him "accent-free"). His music gives me acne. Musical schmaltz.


Well-said, hpowders. He makes my eyes water. Not in a good way. Sad that I can only click the "like" button on your post once. Well, I'm clicking it repeatedly, but it only registers once.


----------



## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Klassik said:


> Am I the only one who is left slightly cold by Ravel's arrangement of Pictures at an Exhibition? I've listened to a few different recordings of it, but it's never made me that excited. I generally like Mussorgsky and I generally like Ravel. I'm not sure what the issue is, but maybe I ought to give Mussorgsky's piano version a try.


Absolutely give the original piano version a try. It's beautiful. If you can locate a copy, there is a recording by Byron Janis on Mercury Living Presence that is quite good. Also a version by Ashkenazy on Decca that is also extremely good.


----------



## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Klassik said:


> Am I the only one who is left slightly cold by Ravel's arrangement of Pictures at an Exhibition? I've listened to a few different recordings of it, but it's never made me that excited. I generally like Mussorgsky and I generally like Ravel. I'm not sure what the issue is, but maybe I ought to give Mussorgsky's piano version a try.


I prefer Mussorgsky's original piano to Ravel's by far, as I said in this thread a while ago. I feel that Ravel's Pictures are trying to show off his orchestral skills and making _him_ the center of attention. And while the last two movements of Ravel's orchestration don't move me that much, Mussorgsky's really gets my heart pumping. But that's just me...


----------



## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> ...snip....
> 
> Even then it's laughable how people can wax lyrical about some dreary Wagner dirge they've probably heard 10,000 times, as if the musical content is somehow more resistant to such repeated hearings. I guess with some works the in-club of listeners feel it's just better if the general listening public isn't involved or appreciative; in that way one's position as a sophisticated listener is 'confirmed'.


Yes, you've found me out. All my likes, dislikes, and opinions are all based on how I want others to perceive me. I lack the ability to form my own opinions or thoughts. Well spotted. :lol:


----------



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't think there are any examples for me. I like all of the well-known pieces enough. There are some that I don't like as much as the "general public" likes, but there are none that I "can't stand". 

I guess one that annoys me a little is Albinoni's Adagio for Strings, but that's mainly because it's not even by him. I enjoy Albinoni's actual compositions more than a sentimental work that's misattributed to him. I still think it's a decent piece of music, though.


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Omicron9 said:


> Yes, you've found me out. All my likes, dislikes, and opinions are all based on how I want others to perceive me. I lack the ability to form my own opinions or thoughts. Well spotted. :lol:


Irony collapsing into an accurate description?


----------



## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> Irony collapsing into an accurate description?


Darn! Found out again!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> Even then it's laughable how people can wax lyrical about some dreary Wagner dirge they've probably heard 10,000 times, as if the musical content is somehow more resistant to such repeated hearings. I guess with some works the in-club of listeners feel it's just better if the general listening public isn't involved or appreciative; in that way one's position as a sophisticated listener is 'confirmed'.


Is there a club house where the "in-club of listeners" meets? Who are the "general listening public"? Is there something inherently risible about not tiring of a piece of music, even one that you think is dreary?


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Klassik said:


> Am I the only one who is left slightly cold by Ravel's arrangement of Pictures at an Exhibition? I've listened to a few different recordings of it, but it's never made me that excited. I generally like Mussorgsky and I generally like Ravel. I'm not sure what the issue is, but maybe I ought to give Mussorgsky's piano version a try.


As I recall, there are a number of orchestrations. Why not give Stokowski's a try:





And now, consequently, I am listening to it (Stokowski's orchestration). Way different from Ravel. Think I might be going to like this.

I have Pictures on piano, orchestrated, as a concerto, on strings, on brass, on organ, on accordion, and what else I can't remember.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Klassik said:


> Am I the only one who is left slightly cold by Ravel's arrangement of Pictures at an Exhibition? I've listened to a few different recordings of it, but it's never made me that excited. I generally like Mussorgsky and I generally like Ravel. I'm not sure what the issue is, but maybe I ought to give Mussorgsky's piano version a try.


Try the Toscanini performance of it, if you haven't already.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Omicron9 said:


> *Well-said, hpowders.* He makes my eyes water. Not in a good way. Sad that I can only click the "like" button on your post once. Well, I'm clicking it repeatedly, but it only registers once.


*Thank you!* I cringe when I hear the name "Dvorak". Over-rated, in my opinion.


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Is there a club house where the "in-club of listeners" meets? Who are the "general listening public"? Is there something inherently risible about not tiring of a piece of music, even one that you think is dreary?


I wouldn't know about a club-house, I'm not a member of such a club. The obvious meaning of 'general listening public' here is people not focused upon listening to classical music, so 'casual listeners'. I think you know what I meant.

There is indeed something risible about being so religiously devoted to a piece, or a particular composer's works, that it is immune to criticism. Inherently? The word seems to me superfluous in that sentence.


----------



## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

hpowders said:


> *Thank you!* I cringe when I hear the name "Dvorak". Simply the most over-rated composer who ever lived.
> 
> There are 6-7 people who are fanatical about Dvorak on TC. They must be relatives.


I like Dvořák. I have a long lost half brother in Poland who is ~30 years older than me. My father did live in the Czech Republic at one point. Maybe Antonin is really my 100+ years older even longer lost brother?!


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Klassik said:


> I like Dvořák. I have a long half brother in Poland who is ~30 years older than me. My father did live in the Czech Republic at one point. Maybe Antonin is really my 100+ years older even longer lost brother?!


Thanks for Czech-ing out my Dvorak post.

Dvorak's music would have been a perfect soundtrack to all those sentimental old silent movies where Snidley Whiplash was evicting the poor, beautiful 24 year old mother and her 17 children, onto the street, for failing to pay him his inflated rent money.

Fast forward to today, and the mom would simply sue Snidley on Judge Judy.


----------



## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

hpowders said:


> *Thank you!* I cringe when I hear the name "Dvorak". Over-rated, in my opinion.


I usually pronounce it as "Dvorzh-hack." Emphasis on the 2nd syllable.


----------



## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Thanks for Czech-ing out my Dvorak post.
> 
> ....snip...


I hate myself for giggling at this. Well-played, hpowders, my friend.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Omicron9 said:


> I hate myself for giggling at this. Well-played, hpowders, my friend.


So, in the church where Dvorak got married, after he kissed his bride, I have it on good authority that the parishoners behind him yelled out "Czech-mate!!"


----------



## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

hpowders said:


> So, in the church where Dvorak got married, when he kissed his bride, the parishoners behind him yelled out "Czech-mate!!" ??


Yes, and his daughter and son-in-law Suk.

:tiphat:


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Klassik said:


> Yes, and his daughter and son-in-law Suk.
> 
> :tiphat:


Didn't they move to Monti-cello?


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

hpowders said:


> *Thank you!* I cringe when I hear the name "Dvorak". Over-rated, in my opinion.


I cringe when I see Dvořák's name written without diacritical marks!!


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Klassik said:


> I like Dvořák. I have a long lost half brother in Poland who is ~30 years older than me. My father did live in the Czech Republic at one point. Maybe Antonin is really my 100+ years older even longer lost brother?!


Thanks for including his diacritical marks!


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I cringe when I see Dvořák's name written without diacritical marks!!


He isn't worth the effort where I come from.

(I KNEW he was going to be a trouble-maker!!!)


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Tristan said:


> I don't think there are any examples for me. I like all of the well-known pieces enough. There are some that I don't like as much as the "general public" likes, but there are none that I "can't stand".
> 
> I guess one that annoys me a little is Albinoni's Adagio for Strings, but that's mainly because it's not even by him. I enjoy Albinoni's actual compositions more than a sentimental work that's misattributed to him. I still think it's a decent piece of music, though.


Post of the day, and so modest. 
:clap:


----------



## ibrahim (Apr 29, 2017)

4"33. I can't stand the middle section.


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

ibrahim said:


> 4"33. I can't stand the middle section.


I know what you mean! The beginning of it is exciting because you think something might happen. And the final section is a relief because you know it's almost over. But the middle section lacks momentum...


----------



## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

With the amount of hand-wringing that goes on over John Cage and 4'33" in particular, I'd say that Cage was very successful in creating that particular piece!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> I wouldn't know about a club-house, I'm not a member of such a club. The obvious meaning of 'general listening public' here is people not focused upon listening to classical music, so 'casual listeners'. I think you know what I meant.
> 
> There is indeed something risible about being so religiously devoted to a piece, or a particular composer's works, that it is immune to criticism. Inherently? The word seems to me superfluous in that sentence.


Yes, I think I do know what you mean, and I find it objectionable. Your original statement again:

_"It's laughable how people can wax lyrical about some dreary Wagner dirge they've probably heard 10,000 times, as if the musical content is somehow more resistant to such repeated hearings. I guess with some works the in-club of listeners feel it's just better if the general listening public isn't involved or appreciative; in that way one's position as a sophisticated listener is 'confirmed.'"_

People may rightly love what they love, and listen to it as much as they wish, and wax lyrical about it, and be as critical of it or as uncritical as they happen to be, regardless of whether the music is "some dreary Wagnerian dirge" or the "Flight of the Bumblebee" or "Stimmung." For them the music may indeed be "resistant to repeated hearing," i.e. ceaselessly enjoyable, even for their entire lives. What's "laughable" about that? I should think such a blessed state much to be desired. And how are these enthusiasts related to some imagined "in-club" of listeners who prefer that others not share their enjoyment so that they can feel sophisticated and superior? Is this club something out of a novel you're writing? Do you know any people like that? I don't. It seems to me that you're setting up a straw man just for the pleasure of setting fire to it. So just who is feeling "superior" to whom?


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Yes, I think I do know what you mean, and I find it objectionable. Your original statement again:
> 
> _"It's laughable how people can wax lyrical about some dreary Wagner dirge they've probably heard 10,000 times, as if the musical content is somehow more resistant to such repeated hearings. I guess with some works the in-club of listeners feel it's just better if the general listening public isn't involved or appreciative; in that way one's position as a sophisticated listener is 'confirmed.'"_
> 
> People may rightly love what they love, and listen to it as much as they wish, and wax lyrical about it, and be as critical of it or as uncritical as they happen to be, regardless of whether the music is "some dreary Wagnerian dirge" or the "Flight of the Bumblebee" or "Stimmung." For them the music may indeed be "resistant to repeated hearing," i.e. ceaselessly enjoyable, even for their entire lives. What's "laughable" about that? I should think such a blessed state much to be desired. And how are these enthusiasts related to some imagined "in-club" of listeners who prefer that others not share their enjoyment so that they can feel sophisticated and superior? Is this club something out of a novel you're writing? Do you know any people like that? I don't. It seems to me that you're setting up a straw man just for the pleasure of setting fire to it. So just who is feeling "superior" to whom?


I don't have any issue with people liking what they like. I think you're offended and upset because I referred to Wagner as a composer of dirges. Are the fans of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik quite as offended? Perhaps I should have stuck with those easy targets of overplayed classics you referred to at the start of the thread? The only thing is I'd much rather listen to Bizet's 'charming nothing from a Frenchman' than e.g. one of Wagner's dreary nothings.

In a thread like this there are bound to be people who like those evergreens, perhaps they haven't been listening quite as long and the pieces feel fresher. It's rather unpleasant to have the long-term 'sophisticates' trash their listening.

Classical music is always a club of smaller in-clubs. It probably would make a good novel.


----------



## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

eugeneonagain said:


> I don't have any issue with people liking what they like. I think you're offended and upset because I referred to Wagner as a composer of dirges. Are the fans of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik quite as offended?


Your original statement was quite obviously a jab a Wagner fans, not just an opinion on the music, and you followed that up by implying that some sort of religious fantacism was involved. There was a post very early on that expressed a user's dislike for Tristan und Isolde that didn't even raise a single eyebrow.

I think you'll find that people are more apt to be offended when you knock them for listening to what they want to listen to, or for suggesting they are somehow deluded, rather than you simply state your personal distaste for something. Not that the later doesn't happen occasionally too. No devotees are more passionate than music lovers, and there can be a tendency to take things personally when something you find deeply moving is trashed by others. But it's less common.


----------



## Troy (Apr 23, 2015)

A note on the "Ode to Joy"

As a choral singer I have to say that sometimes I wish for a purely orchestral alternative to the finale for the Symphony no. 9 too

On Dvorak, he wrote two of my favourite large-scale orchestral/choral works, the Requiem and the Stabat Mater. I hope that I get the opportunity to sing them with a decent orchestra/choir sometime.


----------



## agoukass (Dec 1, 2008)

I really cannot stand the Tchaikovsky First and Rachmaninoff Second piano concertos. I have numerous recordings of both and there was a time in my life when I enjoyed them tremendously, but I don't anymore.


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

OperaChic said:


> Your original statement was quite obviously a jab a Wagner fans, not just an opinion on the music, and you followed that up by implying that some sort of religious fantacism was involved...


It was more than an implication. Are there any fans more sensitive than Wagner fans?


----------



## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

eugeneonagain said:


> It was more than an implication.


Well then. Judging others for enjoying something because you find their love of it incomprehensible, and proceeding to correlate that into a kind of religious devotion or idol worship on their part simply because you can't contemplate any other plausible explanation for it really is your problem. Some people find his operas to be incredibly powerful works of art, and you don't. Big deal.



> Are there any fans more sensitive than Wagner fans?


Sure. Make insinuations about the listeners of any composer and you are bound to get a backlash. I guarantee if someone had written something to the effect of "Vapid, superficial music like Eine kleine Nachtmusik is only championed by mindless Mozart disciples who invariably treat everything the man wrote as if it were a towering masterpiece", it would have prompted some responses. Like I said, people state their dislike of Wagner's music all the time without much of a stir. I've seen the Rossini quote about beautiful moments but terrible quarters of an hour tossed off so many times it's almost a surprise when it doesn't show up in a thread on Wagner's music. The real hotbed issues surrounding Wagner usually have to do with extramusical topics. From what I've seen, much more often heated exchanges occur around contemporary music and composers, where criticisms of the music are often especially pointed, and fans of the music lash back, to the point where one side interprets every negative comment on a favorite composer as "you have to be a sucker to enjoy this kind of garbage", and the other side reads every response as "you are too stupid to understand it," or some such thing.


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I have this problem with Beethoven's 5th, second movement. I simply cannot stand its themes. Awful, just awful. Sounds so banal to me, I feel almost repulsed by it after the astounding, glorious, heroic ending of the first movement... How could he create such an ugly contrast? Fortunately he makes up for it in the last movement, mostly. 
Ah well, I've posted this more than once, but it seems I'm the only with this problem, so I guess it's just some quirk of mine.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> Are there any fans more sensitive than Wagner fans?


I'll answer that insult disguised as a question with a serious question: Is there any behavior on a classical music forum more insensitive than repeatedly trashing composers and their fans and then taking the inevitable response as evidence of a "cult"? You've been on this forum only about a month, and already you've offered these "criticisms" of Wagner and, more to the point, of people who love his operas:

May 15 "Wagner was up himself and I think Nietszche pretty much demolished his pseudo-intellectual art in _Nietzsche contra Wagner."_

May 20 "Despite what his fans say *the man really is a cult which people seem to love joining.*"

May 20 "*Wagner acolytes* *seem to think they are able to feel special things other lesser mortals can't *(must be the mystical claptrap)."

May 20 "Mahler got my vote. Unfortunately I likely can't expand upon the reason because in another *Wagner worshipping *thread I've just had every post wiped out by moderators before the thread was locked. Dicky Wagner has special friends protecting him."

May 22 "From an economic standpoint you'd be better off buying budget CDs of Wagner and spending the remainder on a pub lunch. At least then you can press pause once an hour."

May 23 "In any case if Wagner's tales are merely used to expound his alleged profundity would it matter if it was mythology or not (though it is)? Like I said before: Game of Thrones for the 19th century."

May 23 "Basically he gives people wishy-washy metaphysics and myth: essentially *another form of religion,* but this time predicated upon a spurious national greatness."

May 23: "It's drivel made-to-order for whatever particular point is being addressed as is the wont of metaphysical drivel. Wagner's music as music is good, but unfortunately permanently wedded to these mildly ludicrous and quite laughable fairy stories masquerading as commentary on the human condition."

May 23 "Quite simply I don't care for the cod-philosophy of art behind it or the fraudulent reams of pseudo-intellectual pap poured out trying to give it some sort of transcendental significance to humanity."

May 23 "I, and I'm sure countless others, am so tired of hearing about how much of a towering genius Wagner was, above every other opera composer or perhaps composer in general. It's preposterous. Musically yes, dramatically absolutely not. In terms of of the idea of art as a restorative elixir for humanity he was a total failure."

May 23 "I have noted over the years that *the average Wagner listener, especially the seasoned listener, seems to view himself as the last word in fine-tuned interpretation of art and philosophy as a result of or because he listens to Wagner."*

May 24 [Starting the day by listening to the entire _Ring_ cycle] "must be the musical equivalent of getting out of bed on the wrong side."

June 3 "It seems to me that every second or third thread is about one of the above-mentioned composers [Beethoven, Bruckner, Brahms and Wagner] (Mahler too)."

June 5 "I'd rather listen to Bizet than Wagner any day of the week. I want to feel life-affirmed, not like I've been dragged at the back of a horse and then left in the rain."

June 8 "There's *a weird Brahms/Wagner/Mahler obsession* on this forum, despite claims to massive lists of other listening material."

June 12 "Could Handelitis be considered a worse affliction than *Wagneritis* or Mahleritis or Bruckneritis? It's definitely rarer than those other three, *which I have heard lead to extreme blindness."
*
June 20 "It's laughable how people can wax lyrical about some dreary Wagner dirge they've probably heard 10,000 times, as if the musical content is somehow more resistant to such repeated hearings."

You may have set some sort of record, at least since I've been on TC, for the greatest number of disparaging remarks in a short time about a major composer and his admirers. Wagner's persistent reputation for greatness seems to have got under your skin. Well, dislike him all you want, but if you're going to trot out insulting caricatures of those who do like him you're going to get pushback, as you should. Intelligent criticism of art is a legitimate function of a forum like this. Gratuitous and repeated potshots - particularly at people you don't even know for liking what you don't - is not legitimate, and you can't expect it to be taken lightly.


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Let's please get back to discussing well-loved pieces you can't stand rather than how other members' may respond to criticism of favorite composers.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bizet Symphony in C.

The piece is simply too bizet for me.


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I'll answer that insult disguised as a question with a serious question: Is here any behavior on a classical music forum more insensitive than repeatedly trashing composers and their fans and then taking the inevitable response as evidence of a "cult"? You've been on this forum only about a month, and already you've offered these "criticisms" of Wagner and, more to the point, of people who love his operas:
> 
> _[best bit snipped]_
> 
> You may have set some sort of record, at least since I've been on TC, for the greatest number of disparaging remarks in a short time about a major composer and his admirers. Wagner's persistent reputation for greatness seems to have got under your skin. Well, dislike him all you want, but if you're going to trot out insulting caricatures of those who do like him you're going to get pushback, as you should. Intelligent criticism of art is a legitimate function of a forum like this. Gratuitous and repeated potshots - particularly at people you don't even know for liking what you don't - is not legitimate, and you can't expect it to be taken lightly.


I think I deserve to answer such a long post. Better to take amusing pot-shots I think. At least I get to amuse myself if nothing else. No-one is going to tolerate any legitimate criticism of Wagner anyway, I've been there many times before and I discovered that nothing is different here. The bits you didn't repeat from that other major thread would show that it wasn't just pot-shots, it discussed _inter alia_ Wagner's thin, bizarre plots, but you weren't having that either, because, of course, Wagner is great and his appreciators know best. It really doesn't matter what I say.

Perhaps if you apply those excellent thread research skills you can compile all the trashings of other composers by members who happen not to be me. However the pained responses to these are thin on the ground.

I admit I don't like Wagner all that much, but please don't pretend that I'm just taking ill-conceived, untutored pot-shots. I'm just as much a well-rounded listener as you are. I have a fairly lengthy musical background too so my position is not from ignorance.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DeepR said:


> I have this problem with Beethoven's 5th, second movement. I simply cannot stand its themes. Awful, just awful. Sounds so banal to me, I feel almost repulsed by it after the astounding, glorious, heroic ending of the first movement... How could he create such an ugly contrast? Fortunately he makes up for it in the last movement, mostly.
> Ah well, I've posted this more than once, but it seems I'm the only with this problem, so I guess it's just some quirk of mine.


Taking a step back from a work so familiar as to seem like a natural phenomenon, I can see that the basic thematic material of that movement sounds rather unpromising - the sort of stuff that perhaps only Beethoven could make anything out of. I can't go with you all the way on this because I think it all works in the end. But you definitely made me think.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> I think I deserve to answer such a long post. Better to take amusing pot-shots I think. At least I get to amuse myself if nothing else. No-one is going to tolerate any legitimate criticism of Wagner anyway, I've been there many times before and I discovered that nothing is different here. The bits you didn't repeat from that other major thread would show that it wasn't just pot-shots, it discussed _inter alia_ Wagner's thin, bizarre plots, but you weren't having that either, because, of course, Wagner is great and his appreciators know best. It really doesn't matter what I say.
> 
> Perhaps if you apply those excellent thread research skills you can compile all the trashings of other composers by members who happen not to be me. However the pained responses to these are thin on the ground.
> 
> I admit I don't like Wagner all that much, but please don't pretend that I'm just taking ill-conceived, untutored pot-shots. I'm just as much a well-rounded listener as you are. I have a fairly lengthy musical background too so my position is not from ignorance.


Don't misunderstand. On the whole you seem intelligent and musically knowledgeable, and I enjoy some of your posts that I've read. We disagree about the substance of Wagner's work, but of course there's always been plenty of disagreement about all aspects of it. The problem here is that your personal inability to be stirred as deeply as many people are by his conceptions is not a valid basis for dismissing him with arrogant certitude and scorn, and it definitely can't justify the clicheed caricature you project onto the innumerable people who get a great deal more from his works than you do.

Nothing in your comments about Wagner (including the ones I didn't quote) give evidence to me of sustained first-hand engagement with Wagner's works, or much interest in them. Some people on this forum (and, in case you haven't noticed, in the world at large) do take that sort of interest, and have gotten far past imagining, say, that poor embittered Nietzsche "demolished" Wagner's art. News flash: it hasn't been demolished, and it's still speaking powerfully to a lot of people. Those people, and the art that inspires them, deserve respect, or at the very least a grudging civility.


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Fair enough. I can extend that civility. I do not want to be embroiled in a feud with anyone.


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

I can't stand most of Beethoven "popular" sonatas, Moonlight, Tempest, Pastoral, the Hunt, Waldstein, Appassionata, à Thérèse, Les Adieux (however the last three are among my most favorites).

The irritating theme of the Rondo of his violin concerto sort of ruins the previous two marvelous movements for me.

I hate Berlioz' _Symphonie Fantastique_, despite being a big fan of his _Roméo et Juliette_ and other orchestra work.

Bruckner 4th is the only mature symphony of him that I detest.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> Fair enough. I can extend that civility. I do not want to be embroiled in a feud with anyone.


Thank you. I'll anticipate reading your thoughtful posts with pleasure.

Excuse me now while I go and present my ten-foot bronze Wagner statue with flowers, fruit, and libations.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

silentio said:


> I can't stand most of Beethoven "popular" sonatas, Moonlight, Tempest, Pastoral, the Hunt, Waldstein, Appassionata, à Thérèse, Les Adieux (however the last three are among my most favorites).
> 
> The irritating theme of the Rondo of his violin concerto sort of ruins the previous two marvelous movements for me.
> 
> ...


Whew! You had me worried there for a minute!


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Whew! You had me worried there for a minute!


aww, why is that?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

silentio said:


> aww, why is that?


I was afraid you were going to throw Bruckner out with the bathwater. As it happens, the 4th is also my least-liked of his symphonies #3 - #9. It appears to be one of his most popular, which I can't understand; it's nice, but I think the rest are more interesting.


----------



## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I was afraid you were going to throw Bruckner out with the bathwater. As it happens, the 4th is also my least-liked of his symphonies #3 - #9. It appears to be one of his most popular, which I can't understand; it's nice, but I think the rest are more interesting.


That happens to be my favorite Bruckner symphony, and the one I find most interesting. 7 and 8 are great too, but I can't sit through 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 9 without taking a break for some refreshing Beethoven or Mozart halfway through.


----------



## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Florestan said:


> Carmina Burana (Orff)
> 
> Ugh! Hedonistic tripe!


Yup - No need to say more (except for the 15 character dictate).


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Klassik said:


> Am I the only one who is left slightly cold by Ravel's arrangement of Pictures at an Exhibition? I've listened to a few different recordings of it, but it's never made me that excited. I generally like Mussorgsky and I generally like Ravel. I'm not sure what the issue is, but maybe I ought to give Mussorgsky's piano version a try.


You're not alone. Ravel wrote some wonderful music, but his arrangement of Pictures is not his best work and is a travesty of Mussorgsky's original.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Jeez, why are people so down on Ravel's brilliant and imaginative arrangement of Mussorgsky? It isn't as if we don't still have the original. And I haven't heard another orchestration that I find as effective on its own terms - certainly not Stokowski's, which steals from the Ravel anyway.

If I had never heard the original and someone made a piano transcription of the Ravel, I'll bet it would be very close to what Mussorgsky wrote.


----------

