# What kind of music Jesus Christ our Lord would like and blush (serieous question)



## deprofundis

Tell me among classical , while listening to muusic ever felt a christic presence in the room , that you can see but feel, it happen to me once, i dont know on what composer perhaps Harvey,modern cllassical.

Name classical composer that would made our lord and savior , Jesus of Nazareth the great.


Please stay in classical genra,,, era can be ars antiqua to modern day..


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## janxharris

deprofundis said:


> Tell me among classical , while listening to muusic ever felt a christic presence in the room , that you can see but feel, it happen to me once, i dont know on what composer perhaps Harvey,modern cllassical.
> 
> Name classical composer that would made our lord and savior , Jesus of Nazareth the great.
> 
> Please stay in classical genra,,, era can be ars antiqua to modern day..


I guess many will only respond to being asked about what Jesus Christ the _human being_ (rather than God/man) would like...

He would love Sibelius's 7th symphony.


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## david johnson

An interesting question. He would be familiar with: the Temple music of the time, celebratory music (as He heard at a wedding he attended), hymns of the day (He and his followers are mentioned as singing one together). It appears to me that He understood the uses of music and participated in them. I have no idea what classical selections would pique His interests.


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## Enthusiast

Probably, like most people, he would not have liked music that strayed too far from the music he knew and grew up with. Bach would probably have been ugly nonsense to him.


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## Ingélou

It's impossible to know what the man Jesus would like - there'd be a limited choice open, one presumes. 

If I am thinking of Him as divine - I can't see that He'd dislike any music. He'd 'get the point' of it all.


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## JAS

Normally, these kinds of question are what historical figure _A_ would have thought when confronted with modern situation _B_. And normally there can be no meaningful answer to the question other than to ruminate about how times or circumstances of situation _B_ are different from or resemble those of the times of person _A_, whichever applies. Often, the proposed situation of _B_ is so foreign to person _A_ that little can be said, other than he or she would be astounded or confounded by it.

Here, I assume that Jesus is used not merely as a historical figure but also because there is a widely held presumption of a divine status (particularly with the added designation of "our Lord"), which is a very different situation since the context of the divine cannot be limited to any one point in time. But, because the divine is also a concept that mostly encompasses characteristics which are themselves unfathomable, we find ourselves in a similar problem, even if for slightly different reasons.

To the extent that we envision a divine force, we each tend to form our own sense of it. Much of that sense may be shaped by our own preferences (a condition that has not gone unnoticed or unremarked upon by those who eschew the idea of the divine). Personally, I think God would "like" any music that is beautiful (and, since I come from a Protestant background, I presume that he or she would forgive the rest). And having used that word, I suspect I open up the discussion of what constitutes beauty.


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## SixFootScowl

I haven't the slightest idea. Probably not death metal IMO.


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## norman bates

I'm sure he would be a big fan of Delius.
Delius would not take this well though.


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## regenmusic

Have you ever heard people singing in tongues? Jesus likes that.






There are a lot of videos of it I'm sure, this is just one example.


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## Phil loves classical

regenmusic said:


> Have you ever heard people singing in tongues? Jesus likes that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are a lot of videos of it I'm sure, this is just one example.


I used to believe I could speak in tongues myself. I can think of one:






I doubt he would be a modern classical fan, but he may like this


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## Bulldog

He would get a kick out of Mozart's Don Giovanni.


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## endelbendel

In general, thoughts about this one go in Dionysian directions. But as to the man, Rabbi Jesus, very conservative and standard chanting of the prayers and the Torah.


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## SixFootScowl

Perhaps he might like this:


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## Room2201974

4'33"




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## SixFootScowl

Room2201974 said:


> 4'33"
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Well, you know, they say silence is golden!


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## hpowders

Ravel's Bolero-a favorite of the Pharisees.

Any Met Opera Broadcast with Milton Cross as the host.

Just guessing. I could be wrong.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Probably Jesus Christ Superstar. Not classical but hey, who can resist being called a superstar?


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## hpowders

Actually since Jesus was a Jew, he probably would have been into whatever music was played at Passover in temple celebrations.


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## JAS

hpowders said:


> Actually since Jesus was a Jew, he probably would have been into whatever music was played at Passover in temple celebrations.


That may be true in a strict sense, but it pegs Jesus as an historical figure, which is not quite the perspective of the thread title.


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## Josquin13

I expect he would be most impressed by music of Marian devotion, as surely Jesus was himself deeply devoted to his mother, sometimes called Queen Mary, or the Queen of Heaven, & firmly committed to a belief in the divine feminine as a supreme force in the universe, as high as any; as well as music composed in praise of his father, the Creator of heaven and earth, etc..

1. Josquin Des Prez:

"Inviolata, integra, et casta es Maria à 5"--has any composer ever composed a more beautiful, more profound motet?






"Ave Maria"






"O Virgo virginum à 6"






Inviolata, integra et casta es:






Missa "Gaudeamus"--Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei:






















Missa "Ave maris stella"--Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei:






















Missa "de Beata Virgine":






2. Jean Mouton:

"Nesciens mater virgo virum":






3. John Dunstable:

Veni Sancte Spiritus/Veni creator spiritus:


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## Manxfeeder

Ingélou said:


> If I am thinking of Him as divine - I can't see that He'd dislike any music. He'd 'get the point' of it all.


I think you've hit on something. I consider myself as devout a Christian as I can be, but I like music which is honest. And sometimes honest music is confessional, which means it has to speak of something uncomfortable to come to a sense of release or catharsis. I think he is more concerned with the spirit behind the music than the music itself.


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## Guest




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## millionrainbows

deprofundis said:


> Tell me among classical , while listening to muusic ever felt a christic presence in the room , that you can see but feel, it happen to me once, i dont know on what composer perhaps Harvey,modern cllassical.
> 
> Name classical composer that would made our lord and savior , Jesus of Nazareth the great.
> 
> Please stay in classical genra,,, era can be ars antiqua to modern day..


Sorry, can't stay in classical genre. Since Christ was a carpenter, he'd be listening to blue-collar music: Bob Seeger and Lynrd Skynrd.


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## Guest

Jesus's last few words from the cross - Behold your mother.

*Behold Your Mother*
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!" 27 Then He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

*It Is Finished*
28 After this, Jesus, [a]knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!" 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth.


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## Josquin13

"Since Christ was a carpenter, he'd be listening to blue-collar music: Bob Seeger and Lynrd Skynrd."

Jesus was no carpenter. There were no carpenters in Jerusalem during those times, as the builders were all stone masons. (A mistake likely due to the 4 Gospels being written down several decades later.) A connection to stone masonry would fit, as it would put Jesus & his family in close proximity to the Temple, as temple builders, and possibly architects. Nor was Jesus from Nazareth either, as the town of Nazareth didn't exist two thousand years ago. Again, he was probably connected to the Nazarene sect, and the later Gospel writers mistakenly came to associate his Nazarene affiliation with the later town of Nazareth.

Which is not to say that he wouldn't enjoy listening to Bob Seeger and Lynrd Skynrd...


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## SixFootScowl

millionrainbows said:


> Sorry, can't stay in classical genre. Since Christ was a carpenter, he'd be listening to blue-collar music: Bob Seeger and Lynrd Skynrd.


or maybe since Johnny Cash represented the blue collar so well, He might just listen to Johnny and June Carter Cash and also the Carter Family!


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## Larkenfield

I find Mauridsen's _Lux aeterna_ to be completely warm, inviting, and spiritually Christlike. Such music can be of comfort during troubling times.


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## bravenewworld

Surely some medieval and renaissance Gregorian chanting wouldn't have gone unappreciated. I don't think there is anything much more holy than listening to Byrd and Tallis.


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## Guest

Yes true, I was going to post my favourite - Vespers of the blessed Virgin Mary .


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## starthrower

bravenewworld said:


> Surely some medieval and renaissance Gregorian chanting wouldn't have gone unappreciated. I don't think there is anything much more holy than listening to Byrd and Tallis.


It may go unappreciated to a Hebrew person of antiquity. The premise of this thread is rather preposterous.


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## SixFootScowl

starthrower said:


> The premise of this thread is rather preposterous.


Great point! The Lord Jesus did not come to earth to enjoy music and what music he heard would have been that which he heard in passing. A better topic might be (and perhaps more appropriately in the religion subforum) "Would Jesus be pleased with all of my music listening choices?"


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## starthrower

Fritz Kobus said:


> "Would Jesus be pleased with all of my music listening choices?"


Equally preposterous assertion, imo. But that's just me.


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## millionrainbows

Josquin13 said:


> "Since Christ was a carpenter, he'd be listening to blue-collar music: Bob Seeger and Lynrd Skynrd."
> 
> Jesus was no carpenter. There were no carpenters in Jerusalem during those times, as the builders were all stone masons. (A mistake likely due to the 4 Gospels being written down several decades later.) A connection to stone masonry would fit, as it would put Jesus & his family in close proximity to the Temple, as temple builders, and possibly architects. Nor was Jesus from Nazareth either, as the town of Nazareth didn't exist two thousand years ago. Again, he was probably connected to the Nazarene sect, and the later Gospel writers mistakenly came to associate his Nazarene affiliation with the later town of Nazareth.
> 
> Which is not to say that he wouldn't enjoy listening to Bob Seeger and Lynrd Skynrd...


Do you believe in the virgin birth? Do you believe that Christ was the son of God? Do you believe that he rose from the dead?


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## millionrainbows

Originally Posted by *Fritz Kobus* 
_"Would Jesus be pleased with all of my music listening choices?"_



starthrower said:


> Equally preposterous assertion, imo. But that's just me.


I think Jesus would want you to listen to more Sun Ra.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> I think Jesus would want you to listen to more Sun Ra.


You never know? They are both Starseeds.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Do you believe in the virgin birth? Do you believe that Christ was the son of God? Do you believe that he rose from the dead?


You takin' over for Billy Graham?


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## Strange Magic

millionrainbows said:


> Do you believe in the virgin birth? Do you believe that Christ was the son of God? Do you believe that he rose from the dead?


There's a perfect place in Groups to discuss those issues, but you already know that.


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## eugeneonagain

I think you'll find that the God Squad are highly adept at finding opportunities to shoehorn their lord and master into any conversation.


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## Joe B




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## Joe B




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## eugeneonagain

I don't know. According to the Gospels he seemed to be too busy to be sitting about listening to music.


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## bravenewworld

starthrower said:


> It may go unappreciated to a Hebrew person of antiquity. The premise of this thread is rather preposterous.


Yes, I agree. Jesus' conception of music (if he had any) would have been vastly different to our sensibilities today. To speculate upon what music he would or would not have enjoyed is inherently a ludicrous proposition. Moreover, as a non-religious person myself, I find it quite a stretch to assume Jesus' divinity would have enabled him to appreciate all music immediately (making this assumption would change the decision-making calculus here employed). Rather, if we are to be able to answer this question _at all_ without assuming some divine ability to immediately 'get' music, I think that the metric by which we measure Jesus' appreciation should be less the quality of the music itself and rather the devotional message contained therein; I choose Gregorian chants because I don't see much that is more austere and pious than that type of music.

I think there is also a substantial chance that Jesus would not have been impressed by music at all - remember, many religions such as Islam have major issues with music and Christianity too has had an often uncomfortable association with the art form (the Pietists if I recall correctly were very untrusting of elaborate music indeed). Perhaps Jesus would have agreed that anything beyond the simplest forms of music (single human voices and maybe a slight instrumental accompaniment) is unacceptable and detracts from his own message through its own decadent beauty. Or maybe not. We don't know, and never can, because of the nature of the question with which we are presented.


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## Strange Magic

As a carpenter, Jesus had a hammer.....


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## Woodduck

Strange Magic said:


> As a carpenter, Jesus had a hammer.....


But Psalm 2:9 and Mr. Handel say, "Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron."


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## Gallus

Whatever folk music which would have been around in Galilee at the time. Plus antiphonal chants perhaps, mainly from Psalms.

Might not have been too far off from this, although I'm being speculative of course:


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## haydnguy

The question of the OP is a little vague to me. But I'll give it a shot. Considering that mankind has enjoyed music of one type or the other for such a long time, it is likely He would like music as well.

The question of what type of music is where it gets a little vague to me. In His day he would have probably liked some type of music of that time. As for today, who knows. No doubt many of us would be surprised.


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## Strange Magic

Woodduck said:


> But Psalm 2:9 and Mr. Handel say, "Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron."


Leaving aside the sound of the music Jesus would have heard and preferred, it is to be hoped and expected that the lyrics of any vocal music would be about "love between my brothers and my sisters, all over this land". Plus some warnings and danger on issues of social justice. Bells would have been available to accompany the rhythm of the hammer strokes. Case closed.


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## Tallisman

Gallus said:


> Whatever folk music which would have been around in Galilee at the time. Plus antiphonal chants perhaps, mainly from Psalms.
> 
> Might not have been too far off from this, although I'm being speculative of course:


I'm going to sound like such a philistine, but I can't be the only one who saw the video and thought it was going to sound like some stark, lyrical, flute/voice moaning across the desert, like something from Gladiator or Troy.


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## eugeneonagain

I just watched it and it was fascinating.


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## EdwardBast

eugeneonagain said:


> I just watched it and it was fascinating.


Yes! The improvisation on the Louvre aulos was great. Impossible to know how well it reflects actual ancient practice, but it certainly demonstrates the potential of the instrument.


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## Tikoo Tuba

*shhh* ... just exist


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## nikola

Jesus would definitely like something like this:


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## Ingélou

Jesus got into trouble with the Pharisees for His presence at celebrations and His rapport with 'ordinary people'. He speaks of the Pharisees pulling 'long faces' and of piping and dancing in the market place.

I think He'd like dance music. I'm sure He'd *love* Praetorius - the music, as well as the man.


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## Tikoo Tuba

Ingélou said:


> ... piping and dancing in the market place. I think He'd like dance music.


Ah , just the music for Christian ballet . Thanks .


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## eugeneonagain

Ingélou said:


> Jesus got into trouble with the Pharisees for His presence at celebrations ...


Perhaps he must have bought uninspired gifts from Amazon.

(failed homophonic joke)


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## Tikoo Tuba

The song of baby Jesus begins with a wailing in the night . We have heard the melody emergent .


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## eugeneonagain

Tikoo Tuba said:


> The song of baby Jesus begins with a wailing in the night . We have heard the melody emergent .


Never heard the hymn _Away In A Manger_?

"The cattle are lowing, the baby awakes / But little Lord Jesus, no crying he makes"


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## Merl

Gallus said:


> Whatever folk music which would have been around in Galilee at the time. Plus antiphonal chants perhaps, mainly from Psalms.
> 
> Might not have been too far off from this, although I'm being speculative of course:


Is it just me or did anyone else find the pipe man wayyyyy too enthusiastic?


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## Ingélou

eugeneonagain said:


> Never heard the hymn _Away In A Manger_?
> 
> "The cattle are lowing, the baby awakes / But little Lord Jesus, no crying he makes"


I remember in young adulthood going on a retreat where a jokey priest cited that line as an example of 'the docetic heresy'. :lol:

But there are lots of 'lullabies of the Virgin' that survive as Middle English lyrics.

This Aramaic one purports to be the real McCoy. I wouldn't know, but it's very beguiling. 
Sorry if this has been posted already.


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## Tikoo Tuba

It's well enough and commonly understood that every little child is the baby Jesus nourished by the mother's lullaby .
And sometimes there comes a night of wondrous peace upon a community . In this night , a baby wails , and a candle is lit as Mother arises to give comfort . We hear the wail in a moment become a song of creation , an emergence of melody simple and pure . To this , we the witness , can hold on to as true .


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## SixFootScowl

Tikoo Tuba said:


> *It's well enough and commonly understood that every little child is the baby Jesus nourished by the mother's lullaby .*
> And sometimes there comes a night of wondrous peace upon a community . In this night , a baby wails , and a candle is lit as Mother arises to give comfort . We hear the wail in a moment become a song of creation , an emergence of melody simple and pure . To this , we the witness , can hold on to as true .


I don't understand. What is your source for this?


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## Ingélou

Fritz Kobus said:


> I don't understand. What is your source for this?


This is just what occurs to me - will be interested to see Tikoo Tuba's reply. :tiphat:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is a source by extrapolation from 'the parable of the sheep & the goats', Matthew Chapter 25 - anyone that we could help *'is' *Jesus -

*Then the King will tell those on his right hand, 'Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.'
"Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink? When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you? When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?'
"The King will answer them, 'Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'*

So a baby is/ represents the Christ Child using the same reasoning.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Mahlers 10th symphony. Carpenter completion.


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## NLAdriaan

There is only one contender:


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## starthrower

I'm guessing AC/DC and Metallica are the only bands that play loud enough for Jesus to hear way up there in heaven?


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## Tikoo Tuba

The path to heaven


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## SixFootScowl

Tikoo Tuba said:


> The path to heaven


looks more like a path to a torture chamber.


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## Larkenfield

Everything was unfortunately pre-Mahler except for perhaps the Archangel Gabriel blowing his horn to announce Judgment Day, associating the divine, or infinite, with the finite. Louis Armstrong was waiting in the wings just in case. :trp:


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## DavidA

Strange Magic said:


> As a carpenter, Jesus had a hammer.....


Sorry but Jesus was probably not a carpenter. The Greek word means 'artisan' so he was probably more of a a housebuilder, especially as wood was quite scarce in Palestine, but he might still have had a hammer.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

DavidA said:


> Sorry but Jesus was probably not a carpenter. The Greek word means 'artisan'.


Perhaps someone should invent a "tektonic" scale?


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## Tikoo Tuba

In God's house there is a room . Music , there , might never be recordable . How may it be spoken of ? Hey , on this piano does one Gb appear depressed ?


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## SixFootScowl

DavidA said:


> Sorry but* Jesus was probably not a carpenter*. The Greek word means 'artisan' so he was probably more of a a housebuilder, especially as wood was quite scarce in Palestine, but he might still have had a hammer.


I don't know Greek, but this is one thing I found:
τέκτων téktōn, tek'-tone; ... an artificer (as producer of fabrics), i.e. (specially), a craftsman in wood:-carpenter.


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## Tikoo Tuba

In the balance is there anti-music ? _in literalism , perhaps _. I wish Jesus had been portrayed musical , but hey! not even his writings have been presented . Very strange . But , yes , yet we have the music-mind . It's goodness and free . May its blessing be spirit , only for the song of the moment , hoped for again , never expected nor indulgently commanded to be .


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## MozartsGhost

Jesus could have very well been a carpenter. Anyone who who has worked in the mason trades soon learns that a mason can't do much without falsework. Falsework being the supporting framework to hold the structure together before locking the whole together with a keystone and mortar. Also, roofs were made to span across mason walls, usually with finished timbers.

As a side note, I often chuckle when I see Jesus portrayed in the movies by a willowy actor who's so white that he looks like he spent the last 15 years in a basement! I suspect Jesus is a physically strong man, darkened by the sun, because I believe that he was hefting beams on his back and woodworking in the days before power tools!

Jesus, who said many times that He is God, created a love of music in me. Its His gift to us, so I suspect that he likes much of the same music we like! 

Psalms 150: 4-6

"Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord."


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## DavidA

Fritz Kobus said:


> I don't know Greek, but this is one thing I found:
> τέκτων téktōn, tek'-tone; ... an artificer (as producer of fabrics), i.e. (specially), a craftsman in wood:-carpenter.


Yes, it was during a visit to Israel that we learned that wood was pretty scarce in Palestine so Jesus might well have been more of an 'artisan' - ie tradesman. This could indeed include carpentry but Jesus was probably employed as a young man helping build the town of Sephoris near Nazareth. You can visit the ruins and contemplate that the Son of God could have walked here and actually helped build the place.


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## Jacck

If I should speculate, Jesus would not be interested in any kind of music and would have perceived it as escapism and empty rituals. Of course we know nothing of the real Jesus, but I know of no important religious figure (that I consider as having anything of interest to say) that would be interested in music


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## Manxfeeder

Jacck said:


> If I should speculate, Jesus would not be interested in any kind of music and would have perceived it as escapism and empty rituals. Of course we know nothing of the real Jesus, but I know of no important religious figure (that I consider as having anything of interest to say) that would be interested in music


Of course, as a Jew, Jesus would have been steeped in Jewish music through the synagogues and Jewish festivals. The Jewish psalms cover all areas of emotion and deal with orientation, disorientation, and surprising reorientation (per Walter Bruggemann); in other words, the total human experience. And as a human, Jesus would have encountered all this, so the Hebrew songs would have meant something to him. Before taking his disciples to Gesthemane, they sang a hymn (from the standard Passover hymns). The words on the cross "Why have you forsaken me" are from the psalms. So the historic Jesus would have found a great use for music in expressing his inner feelings.

"We know nothing of the real Jesus." I'm not sure that's the case. Richard Bauckham's recent book Jesus and the Eyewitnesses makes a compelling case for the gospels, particularly Mark, containing eyewitness accounts.


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## Jacck

Manxfeeder said:


> Of course, as a Jew, Jesus would have been steeped in Jewish music through the synagogues and Jewish festivals. The Jewish psalms cover all areas of emotion and deal with orientation, disorientation, and surprising reorientation (per Walter Bruggemann); in other words, the total human experience. And as a human, Jesus would have encountered all this, so the Hebrew songs would have meant something to him. Before taking his disciples to Gesthemane, they sang a hymn (from the standard Passover hymns). The words on the cross "Why have you forsaken me" are from the psalms. So the historic Jesus would have found a great use for music in expressing his inner feelings.
> 
> "We know nothing of the real Jesus." I'm not sure that's the case. Richard Bauckham's recent book Jesus and the Eyewitnesses makes a compelling case for the gospels, particularly Mark, containing eyewitness accounts.


Jesus fought against all old rituals and threw the Jews with their circus and hypocrisy out of a synagogue. Jesus has almost nothing in common with the Old Testament (and hence the psalms), he rebelled against it. I am almost certain he would have hated what has become out of Christianity in the centuries after his death. The last time I visited a Christian mass was last autumn. They played music and organ and performed all those rituals in their catholic dresses. It striked me as a big theatre. Even the organ is an instrument designed to humble and impress the believers. I am convinced that the real Jesus would have rebelled against all of this.


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## Manxfeeder

Jacck said:


> Jesus fought against all old rituals and threw the Jews with their circus and hypocrisy out of a synagogue. Jesus has almost nothing in common with the Old Testament (and hence the psalms), he rebelled against it. I am almost certain he would have hated what has become out of Christianity in the centuries after his death . . .I am convinced that the real Jesus would have rebelled against all of this.


I'm afraid of topic drift, but just as a brief response, Jesus saw himself and the fulfilling of God's plan in the scriptures, so he did not do away with the scriptures and even saw himself in them, including the psalms. The concepts of loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbor as yourself come out of the Pentateuch. But I do agree with you that he was against any form of religion which becomes self-serving and merely ritualistic.

But as Igor Stravinsky said, One hopes to worship God with a little art if one has any, and if one hasn't and cannot recognize it in others, then one can at least burn a little incense.


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## Taggart

Members are reminded that discussion of religion should be confined to the groups.

A number of purely religious posts have been removed.

Please do *NOT* debate the validity of religion.

A sensible discussion of the differences within the Christian religion about attitudes to music is, however, perfectly acceptable.

Please be polite to your fellow members and respect their deeply held beliefs.


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## DavidA

Jacck said:


> Jesus fought against all old rituals and threw the Jews with their circus and hypocrisy out of a synagogue. Jesus has almost nothing in common with the Old Testament (and hence the psalms), he rebelled against it. I am almost certain he would have hated what has become out of Christianity in the centuries after his death. The last time I visited a Christian mass was last autumn. They played music and organ and performed all those rituals in their catholic dresses. It striked me as a big theatre. Even the organ is an instrument designed to humble and impress the believers. I am convinced that the real Jesus would have rebelled against all of this.


I think you are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Certainly Jesus threw out the man-made aspects of the religion of his time but he did fulfil the law of God. This is shown in his quotes from the Old Testament including the Psalms. There is a theory that the Hebrew lettering provides a clue to the tunes they would have been sung to. I have a copy of the Song of Songs which is sung according to this theory. We know Jesus 'sang a Psalm' with his disciples so he would have been well acquainted with the music in the synagogue.


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## Jacck

DavidA said:


> I think you are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Certainly Jesus threw out the man-made aspects of the religion of his time but he did fulfil the law of God. This is shown in his quotes from the Old Testament including the Psalms. There is a theory that the Hebrew lettering provides a clue to the tunes they would have been sung to. I have a copy of the Song of Songs which is sung according to this theory. We know Jesus 'sang a Psalm' with his disciples so he would have been well acquainted with the music in the synagogue.


I am not really a Bible scholar. For me personally, the best part of the whole Bible is Ecclesiastes (believed to have been written by Solomon). I value it more than the New Testament. The second best part is the Letter to the Romans, where Paul explains the basis of Christianity to the Romans. I have studied many mystics over the course of some 20 years - from buddhism, over sufism, to christian mysticism. And I believe that Jesus was a mystic not that different from Buddha and others, and some of his parables in the Gospels seem to confirm this to me, such as "I am in the Father and the Father is in me" (but it is possible confirmation bias). The Kingdom of Heaven is just a metaphor of the state of enlightenment. The Church and Religion and rituals and priests are results of a cult, that has been built upon Jesus after his death and that Jesus himself never sanctioned. But those are just my views. I believe that Meister Eckhart had the same kind of enlightenment that Jesus had
https://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Mystic-Meister-Eckharts-Within/dp/1101981563
(not to confuse with Eckhart Tolle who is a fraud in my opinion)

But I am diverting from the discussion of the music Jesus would have enjoyed. I believe he was a common man, who found enlightment and through it became the son of the father. And as a common man he would have probably enjoyed the music if his time. And we have no account of the music of that time.


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## Tikoo Tuba

Some speak as though Jesus (dead) only knows music of his time . Even I know music as an art of time-travel ... death has little to do with it .


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## arpeggio

Ingélou said:


> It's impossible to know what the man Jesus would like - there'd be a limited choice open, one presumes.
> 
> If I am thinking of Him as divine - I can't see that He'd dislike any music. He'd 'get the point' of it all.


The only sensible post in this thread.


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## DavidA

Jacck said:


> If I should speculate, Jesus would not be interested in any kind of music and would have perceived it as escapism and empty rituals. Of course we know nothing of the real Jesus, but I know of no important religious figure (that I consider as having anything of interest to say) that would be interested in music


Come on, Jesus went to a wedding and turned water to wine so he was not against people celebrating! Probably with music and dancing as well as was the custom. He told a parable about a wayward son coming home and when his elder brother came in 'he heard the sound of music and dancing.' The older son gets told off by his father because he won't join in the celebration.


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## science

Of course Byzantine Chant is the music he chooses to listen to in church...

:devil:


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## Tikoo Tuba

When the Bride of Christ sings too endearingly , Jesus blushes .


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## eugeneonagain

Do you get this stuff from fortune cookies?


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## aleazk

Christian Rap ?


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## Manxfeeder

aleazk said:


> Christian Rap ?


Since he loves his creation and his creatures, I'm sure he has a fondness for his followers expressing themselves sincerely to him, even in the rap genre. And I trust that his mercy extends to me if I don't share equally in his love for it.


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## DavidA

Manxfeeder said:


> Since he loves his creation and his creatures, I'm sure he has a fondness for his followers expressing themselves sincerely to him, *even in the rap genre.* And I trust that his mercy extends to me if I don't share equally in his love for it.


Psalm 150

Praise the Lord!

Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
praise him with timbrel and dancing,
praise him with the strings and pipe,
praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.
Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

Praise the Lord!

That should cater for all tastes I guess! :tiphat:


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## SixFootScowl

aleazk said:


> Christian Rap ?





Manxfeeder said:


> Since he loves his creation and his creatures, I'm sure he has a fondness for his followers expressing themselves sincerely to him, even in the rap genre. And I trust that his mercy extends to me if I don't share equally in his love for it.


*See post 13* and judge for yourself.


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## science

For those who can tolerate some modern music, here's a beautiful Kyrie by Jan Jirásek.






I'm ecstatic that this is apparently going to be available again!


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## Jacck

if you have an open mind and want to know more about Christianity, watch this video
Biblical Mysteries Explained The Lost Gospels 




these lost gospels are no nonsense. The gnostic version of Christianity makes more sense thatn the traditional version of Christianity. The teachings of Jesus have been heavily distorted.


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## Tikoo Tuba

Jacck said:


> The teachings of Jesus have been heavily distorted.


Then what of Jesus' music ? I hear it's not in the realm of books and literalisms - necessarily mystical , in the spirit of discovery , is and shall be . Once known , though , only then it could be distorted by weirdos . Some people believe in angelic harp music - I guess it's ok - and don't they love to play at the bedside of death .

I think when you hear Jesus music you don't applaud and just stand right up un-dying and run out the door to do something very important .


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## DavidA

Jacck said:


> if you have an open mind and want to know more about Christianity, watch this video
> Biblical Mysteries Explained The Lost Gospels
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *these lost gospels are no nonsense. *The gnostic version of Christianity makes more sense thatn the traditional version of Christianity. The teachings of Jesus have been heavily distorted.


Yes they are! Serious scholars dismiss them.


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## Tikoo Tuba

DavidA said:


> Yes they are! Serious scholars dismiss them.


What then of Our Composer Jesus' Gospel Of Singing ? Would that Jesus ever command "sing my Name" ? This is typical of a Gnostic attitude . Gnostics have been murdered for such ideas . Singing Tikoo Tikoo Tikooo might get you a free pizza , ya know , as from the dumpster on a Sunday morning .


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## DavidA

Tikoo Tuba said:


> What then of Our Composer Jesus' Gospel Of Singing ? Would that Jesus ever command "sing my Name" ? This is typical of a Gnostic attitude . Gnostics have been murdered for such ideas . Singing Tikoo Tikoo Tikooo might get you a free pizza , ya know , as from the dumpster on a Sunday morning .


Gnosticism was a heresy that is actually spoken against in the New testament. The gnostic gospels are desperately unauthentic


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## Manxfeeder

Jacck said:


> if you have an open mind and want to know more about Christianity, watch this video . . .
> The teachings of Jesus have been heavily distorted.


Didn't the moderators tell us to keep this to the groups?


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## Manxfeeder

Fritz Kobus said:


> *See post 13* and judge for yourself.


Fortunately, Christian rap is better than it was. Of course, I'm no connoisseur, so you can't trust my judgment.


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## Tikoo Tuba

How can gnostic music be heresy ? All music is gnostic . Elevator music being gnostic puke neutrality . We are worshipping , we are worshipping . Hear us , all the world , we are worshipping ! Oh , well , crazy .


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## SixFootScowl

Manxfeeder said:


> Fortunately, Christian rap is better than it was. Of course, I'm no connoisseur, so you can't trust my judgment.


I don't think it is better, just different. I find Stephen Wiley easier to follow.


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## SixFootScowl

Tikoo Tuba said:


> How can gnostic music be heresy ? All music is gnostic . *Elevator music being* gnostic *puke* neutrality . We are worshipping , we are worshipping . Hear us , all the world , we are worshipping ! Oh , well , crazy .


I agree with the part I have bolded.


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## Manxfeeder

Fritz Kobus said:


> I don't think it is better, just different. I find Stephen Wiley easier to follow.


Well, this _is _easier to understand.


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## SixFootScowl

Manxfeeder said:


> Well, this _is _easier to understand.


Awesome! You could play that to your VBS class at church!


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## Manxfeeder

Fritz Kobus said:


> Awesome! You could play that to your VBS class at church!


Ha! I've played Christian contemporary from the '70s to my class (I was being funny), and half of them walked out (they were being funny too - I think ).


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## SixFootScowl

Manxfeeder said:


> Ha! I've played Christian contemporary from the '70s to my class (I was being funny), and half of them walked out (they were being funny too - I think ).


CCM would make me walk out. Stephen Wiley is cool though. And if they want to play Stryper, I will definitely stick around.


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## regenmusic

If you want to hear some awesome Christian music, go on youtube and type xian psych. I think it's the best CCM but it's extremely rare, good artists are being discovered from 60s and 70s every month or so.


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## Tikoo Tuba

Here's a note about some music I've heard ; two rappers in conversation , one an Israeli Jew and the other Palestinian . Each voice is strong and logical and respectful . They performed this at an international peace festival and in the context of a drum circle in the forest . Jesus would blush witnessing coherence .


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## Manxfeeder

regenmusic said:


> If you want to hear some awesome Christian music, go on youtube and type xian psych. I think it's the best CCM but it's extremely rare, good artists are being discovered from 60s and 70s every month or so.


Christian contemporary began very diverse. I remember they had bluegrass groups, jazz groups, hard rock, soft rock, folk, and they all were being played together. I suppose that kind of thing is still around today, but what is being promoted and marketed today now is so generic, it's boring. At least to me.


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## SixFootScowl

Manxfeeder said:


> Christian contemporary began very diverse. I remember they had bluegrass groups, jazz groups, hard rock, soft rock, folk, and they all were being played together. I suppose that kind of thing is still around today, *but what is being promoted and marketed today now is so generic, it's boring. At least to me*.


Boring to me also. It is like secular pop with different words. If I want "praise" music then I want to sing traditional church hymns set to their original music, not popped up. If I want music for my own listening pleasure, it is classical (especially opera) and hard driving music like Stryper. Secular non-classical I will delve into some, Hendrix, Johnny Winter, Dylan, even Neil Young and Tom Petty among others. But in the CCM realm I find littlle worth my listening time.


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## DavidA

Fritz Kobus said:


> Boring to me also. It is like secular pop with different words. If I want "praise" music then I want to sing traditional church hymns set to their original music, not popped up. If I want music for my own listening pleasure, it is classical (especially opera) and hard driving music like Stryper. Secular non-classical I will delve into some, Hendrix, Johnny Winter, Dylan, even Neil Young and Tom Petty among others. But in the CCM realm I find littlle worth my listening time.


I think the point must be made that modern 'Praise' music is meant to be sing by a congregation not listened to for entertainment. Traditional church hymns are fine but please remember the fuss people made when Isaac Watts wrote his hymns: "Bringing theatre into the church"


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## Manxfeeder

DavidA said:


> I think the point must be made that modern 'Praise' music is meant to be sing by a congregation not listened to for entertainment. Traditional church hymns are fine but please remember the fuss people made when Isaac Watts wrote his hymns: "Bringing theatre into the church"


Music has always been a touchy subject in churches, hasn't it? As Alexander Pope said, "As some to church repair, not for the doctrine, but the music there." A friend just returned from Australia. He said many people go to the Hillsong church because, as he said, it's the best free rock concert in the city.


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## DavidA

Manxfeeder said:


> Music has always been a touchy subject in churches, hasn't it? As Alexander Pope said, "As some to church repair, not for the doctrine, but the music there." A friend just returned from Australia. He said many people go to the Hillsong church because, as he said, it's the best free rock concert in the city.


Then standard of music is very high and contemporary. Why shouldn't people go?


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## Manxfeeder

DavidA said:


> Then standard of music is very high and contemporary. Why shouldn't people go?


True. I think excellence and spirituality should be the driving force behind any church activity.


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## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> If I should speculate, Jesus would not be interested in any kind of music and would have perceived it as escapism and empty rituals. Of course we know nothing of the real Jesus, but I know of no important religious figure (that I consider as having anything of interest to say) that would be interested in music


Yes, 'religious' people are interested in heaven. Whatever their traditional concepts are, they're more interesting than music or science etc. Jesus was always clarifying. The committees made the KJV easier to understand and Lutheran hymns were made easier to sing.


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## DavidA

Luchesi said:


> Yes, '*religious' people are interested in heaven*. Whatever their traditional concepts are, they're more interesting than music or science etc. Jesus was always clarifying. The committees made the KJV easier to understand and Lutheran hymns were made easier to sing.


Yes but not just interested in heaven. Some of us are interested in science, politics, music, art, literature, charity etc. Please do not judge by a blanket statement. Most of my friends also have a wide range of interests so I don't quite know who you are referring to unless a caricature in the media


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## Luchesi

DavidA said:


> Yes but not just interested in heaven. Some of us are interested in science, politics, music, art, literature, charity etc. Please do not judge by a blanket statement. Most of my friends also have a wide range of interests so I don't quite know who you are referring to unless a caricature in the media


I didn't say that.


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## Manxfeeder

DavidA said:


> Yes but not just interested in heaven. Some of us are interested in science, politics, music, art, literature, charity etc. Please do not judge by a blanket statement. Most of my friends also have a wide range of interests so I don't quite know who you are referring to unless a caricature in the media


I'm not sure what "they're more interesting than music or science" means. Was that a typo?


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## Luchesi

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm not sure what "they're more interesting than music or science" means. Was that a typo?


Their concepts from their tradition are more interesting, captivating and worthwhile than concepts in music or science, no?


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## DavidA

Luchesi said:


> I didn't say that.


What did you say then?


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## Luchesi

DavidA said:


> What did you say then?


Quote Originally Posted by Jacck View Post
If I should speculate, Jesus would not be interested in any kind of music and would have perceived it as escapism and empty rituals. Of course we know nothing of the real Jesus, but I know of no important religious figure (that I consider as having anything of interest to say) that would be interested in music

------

Yes, 'religious' people are interested in heaven. Whatever their traditional concepts are, they're more interesting than music or science etc. Jesus was always clarifying. The committees made the KJV easier to understand and Lutheran hymns were made easier to sing.


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## Manxfeeder

. . . . Deleted post . . . .


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## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> if you have an open mind and want to know more about Christianity, watch this video
> Biblical Mysteries Explained The Lost Gospels
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these lost gospels are no nonsense. The gnostic version of Christianity makes more sense thatn the traditional version of Christianity. The teachings of Jesus have been heavily distorted.


Yes, new techniques, new findings. Imagine working in that field.


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## DavidA

Luchesi said:


> Yes, new techniques, new findings. Imagine working in that field.


Of forgeries! ......


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## Manxfeeder

Luchesi said:


> Their concepts from their tradition are more interesting, captivating and worthwhile than concepts in music or science, no?


I do think learning about that is very interesting. More worthwhile? I don't know if I'd go that far. Like your example of science, in the Western world, Christians used the scientific method in an effort to understand God's creation, and because of it, society was benefited. According to Rodney Stark in The Triumph of Christianity, "The central figures in the scientific achievements of the [Enlightenment] were deeply religious . . . The truly fundamental basis for the rise of the West was an extraordinary faith in reason and progress that was firmly rooted in Christian theology, in the belief and God is the rational creator of a rational universe."

The same thing about music. Western music developed from Christian/Catholic/religious composers who were seeking to express the mystery of God and fellowship with the community audibly, and we still use the concepts they developed.

I don't know definitively about other faith systems, because I primarily study Christianity, but the Christian concept of individuals presenting themselves before God and presenting their talents back to the one who has given these gifts to them seems to invite creativity and engagement with society through these gifts.


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## Luchesi

Manxfeeder said:


> I do think learning about that is very interesting. More worthwhile? I don't know if I'd go that far. Like your example of science, in the Western world, Christians used the scientific method in an effort to understand God's creation, and because of it, society was benefited. According to Rodney Stark in The Triumph of Christianity, "The central figures in the scientific achievements of the [Enlightenment] were deeply religious . . . The truly fundamental basis for the rise of the West was an extraordinary faith in reason and progress that was firmly rooted in Christian theology, in the belief and God is the rational creator of a rational universe."
> 
> The same thing about music. Western music developed from Christian/Catholic/religious composers who were seeking to express the mystery of God and fellowship with the community audibly, and we still use the concepts they developed.
> 
> I don't know definitively about other faith systems, because I primarily study Christianity, but the Christian concept of individuals presenting themselves before God and presenting their talents back to the one who has given these gifts to them seems to invite creativity and engagement with society through these gifts.


Yes, the Empire and later groups embraced Christology as a religion to live by and its concepts inspired artists. Not so much lately.
And the ideal of a structured universe obeying what seemed to be logically designed laws back then - propelled progress in the old sciences (most of it has needed to be slightly corrected with the discoveries of quantum behavior and the vagaries of natural selection).


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## Luchesi

DavidA said:


> Of forgeries! ......


I like to hear from all the experts. I know little about their techniques myself. Have you studied them?


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## Manxfeeder

Luchesi said:


> I like to hear from all the experts. I know little about their techniques myself. Have you studied them?


I think we're starting to drift back in the merits of one religion over another, and I'm afraid the moderators are going to step in again. I sent you a private message giving some of my thoughts on Gnosticism versus Christianity.


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## Luchesi

Manxfeeder said:


> I think we're starting to drift back in the merits of one religion over another, and I'm afraid the moderators are going to step in again. I sent you a private message giving some of my thoughts on Gnosticism versus Christianity.


Jewish people will have a problem with a title containing Jesus Christ our Lord in a thread in the main forum. We Christians don't notice such things.


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## SixFootScowl

Luchesi said:


> Jewish people will have a problem with a title containing Jesus Christ our Lord in a thread in the main forum. We Christians don't notice such things.


I would think Jewish people might choose to ignore the thread, maybe even start their own thread.


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## DavidA

Luchesi said:


> I like to hear from all the experts. I know little about their techniques myself. Have you studied them?


Yes. They are later second century gnostic books


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## Luchesi

Fritz Kobus said:


> I would think Jewish people might choose to ignore the thread, maybe even start their own thread.


Jewish people and Jewish composers probably don't think in terms of any trinity of harmony. Tonic, dominant, and subdominant being God, Holy Spirit, and Christ. The tonic is the fundamental of all (for each key and its scale). The dominant is derived from multiplying the fundamental by three. And for the subdominant, it's four times the fundamental tone.

The major third could be the early developers of the theology, very positive and uplifting. Next, the minor third could be the detractors and the heretics, disturbing and sad sounding, and very far removed - 6 times the fundamental or up to the 19th overtone, but crucial for more modern music and its existential explorations, with the help of all the smaller discordant intervals moving around, we're intrigued. The metaphors are endless in music.


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## SixFootScowl

Luchesi said:


> Jewish people and Jewish composers probably don't think in terms of any trinity of harmony. Tonic, dominant, and subdominant being God, Holy Spirit, and Christ. The tonic is the fundamental of all (for each key and its scale). The dominant is derived from multiplying the fundamental by three. And for the subdominant, it's four times the fundamental tone.
> 
> The major third could be the early developers of the theology, very positive and uplifting. Next, the minor third could be the detractors and the heretics, disturbing and sad sounding, and very far removed - 6 times the fundamental or up to the 19th overtone, but crucial for more modern music and its existential explorations, with the help of all the smaller discordant intervals moving around, we're intrigued. The metaphors are endless in music.


Well, I don't know what that has to do with Jewish people ignoring the thread or starting their own thread (which they probably would not). And I am not sure what your saying has to do with the OP. And I would never equate any music with God., I think the OP only wanted music that brings up feeling of God's presence. I don't believe any music really does that so much as that it is an emotional reaction.

The best music to be pleasing to "Our Lord Jesus Christ" surely is Handel's Messiah and Chando's Anthems, which are full of verses from the Psalms, and other works using text from the Bible.'

Jewish people might do the same but use only text from their scriptures (which is essentially the Christian Old Testament but for some different ordering of books and some variation in numbering of verses from what I can see from my copy of the Jewish Publication Society's "The Holy Scriptures," copyright 1917, 1945, 1955)


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## Luchesi

Fritz Kobus said:


> Well, I don't know what that has to do with Jewish people ignoring the thread or starting their own thread (which they probably would not). And I am not sure what your saying has to do with the OP. And I would never equate any music with God., I think the OP only wanted music that brings up feeling of God's presence. I don't believe any music really does that so much as that it is an emotional reaction.
> 
> The best music to be pleasing to "Our Lord Jesus Christ" surely is Handel's Messiah and Chando's Anthems, which are full of verses from the Psalms, and other works using text from the Bible.'
> 
> Jewish people might do the same but use only text from their scriptures (which is essentially the Christian Old Testament but for some different ordering of books and some variation in numbering of verses from what I can see from my copy of the Jewish Publication Society's "The Holy Scriptures," copyright 1917, 1945, 1955)


You're talking about words. I gave the Christian music theory.


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## Manxfeeder

Luchesi said:


> You're talking about words. I gave the Christian music theory.


Actually, Christian music theory taught that the third was a dissonance all the way up until the English composers at the beginning of the Renaissance had the audacity to use it, so your position that the interval of a third relates to the Trinity doesn't seem to come from music history. Do you have a cite for that?


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## Luchesi

Manxfeeder said:


> Actually, Christian music theory taught that the third was a dissonance all the way up until the English composers at the beginning of the Renaissance had the audacity to use it, so your position that the interval of a third relates to the Trinity doesn't seem to come from music history. Do you have a cite for that?


Yes, the third is more dissonant than the fifth and the fourth. And the tritone (3 whole steps) is Satan in music.

I don't have a website reference, but you can probably find one. I was taught this NT music theory in Sunday school class. I think the teachers were showing us the universal metaphors all around us.


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## Manxfeeder

Luchesi said:


> I don't have a website reference, but you can probably find one. I was taught this NT music theory in Sunday school class. I think the teachers were showing us the universal metaphors all around us.


I haven't found that particular one in a music history text. But as for the Trinity in music, early music was in 3/4 time (though it wasn't called 3/4 time back then) to reflect the Trinity.


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## hammeredklavier

Luchesi said:


> And the tritone (3 whole steps) is Satan in music.


Here's an example


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## Tikoo Tuba

And then Our Lord threw some awful music into a herd of swine . Piggies danced wild unto death . Those who witnessed this were sore afraid and put away their accented third beat of four .


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