# Why do pop songs so often use the natural minor?



## ChrisGraham

I have been wondering this for a while - if, for example, the song was said to be in A minor, it would not have the G# (let alone an F# as in the melodic minor). Does anyone know the reason for this? I would say 99% of pop songs I listen to are in the natural minor - why is this? Thanks for your help


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## Mahlerian

I think it's because the writers are thinking in terms of scales, rather than functional harmony. The dominant with sharpened third is stronger in terms of function because of the leading tone, but the alterations require sensitive handling to avoid undesirable cross-relations (having a G in one measure followed by a G# in the next, for example). There's an idea in popular music circles that notes and chords such as the flatted third and sixth are "outside of the key," which is wrong. They are outside of the scale, but the key is not identical to the scale, and depends on the relationships around a central harmony, not on the associated scale.


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## Dim7

Mahlerian said:


> There's an idea in popular music circles that notes and chords such as the flatted third and sixth are "outside of the key," which is wrong. They are outside of the scale, but the key is not identical to the scale, and depends on the relationships around a central harmony, not on the associated scale.


It may be wrong in the context of classical music, but not popular music.

Here's a relevant poll, possibly the most inanely specific music theory poll I've made


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## Mahlerian

Dim7 said:


> It may be wrong in the context of classical music, but not popular music.


Then key means something different in popular music.


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## ChrisGraham

Mahlerian said:


> I think it's because the writers are thinking in terms of scales, rather than functional harmony. The dominant with sharpened third is stronger in terms of function because of the leading tone, but the alterations require sensitive handling to avoid undesirable cross-relations (having a G in one measure followed by a G# in the next, for example). There's an idea in popular music circles that notes and chords such as the flatted third and sixth are "outside of the key," which is wrong. They are outside of the scale, but the key is not identical to the scale, and depends on the relationships around a central harmony, not on the associated scale.


Thanks very much for the reply! Would you be able to clarify your point about the flattened 3rds and 6ths, as I am a little confused. In my original question, I was referring to pop pieces ignoring the harmonic and melodic minors - for example, in one F minor song I played, the chord progression goes Fm-Db-Ab-Eb, with the key signature being exactly the same as the relative major (Ab) but seemingly based around the chord of Fm. I tried playing this progression with the chords Fm-Db-Ab(augmented)-Edim as in the harmonic minor, yet the effect is just nasty, and definitely doesn't sound like pop.


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## Mahlerian

Especially when using progressions including augmented and diminished harmonies, you should pay careful attention to having the voices move as little as possible. Block chords like you find in most popular music will sound odd if you're moving to dissonances. A more typical progression in F minor would be: Fm-Bbm6 (bass of Db)-C7-Fm.

I was referring to modal mixture in the major because it's a more obvious example, and found relatively frequently both in contemporary popular music and music of the Romantic era, and shows the difference in conception.


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## Dim7

I'd say both pure natural minor and natural/harmonic/melodic mixed minor can be found in pop music fairly often. Even in the latter case however they are not necessarily used in a classically orthodox manner.

When it comes to really popular pop music, it tends to stick to the "four chords" which are I, IV, V, vi in major, which are the same chords as these in the relative minor: i, bIII, bVI, bVII. Harmonic minor doesn't have those same exact chords, and if you use harmonic/melodic minor in the melody it may clash with them. This raises the question why those four chords are so popular, though...


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## millionrainbows

Dim7 said:


> I'd say both pure natural minor and natural/harmonic/melodic mixed minor can be found in pop music fairly often. Even in the latter case however they are not necessarily used in a classically orthodox manner.
> 
> When it comes to really popular pop music, it tends to stick to the "four chords" which are I, IV, V, vi in major, which are the same chords as these in the relative minor: i, bIII, bVI, bVII. Harmonic minor doesn't have those same exact chords, and if you use harmonic/melodic minor in the melody it may clash with them. This raises the question why those four chords are so popular, though...


I think Dim7 is on to something here. The scale is more important in pop music as a harmonic device, when you build triads on it.

Santana's "Evil Ways" uses a dorian scale. The raised sixth of dorian makes the IV chord major instead of minor (Amin-D maj).
"It Ain't Neccessarily So" does the same.

The chord results are what they are after, and that's why they use a scale that will give them the chord quality (major or minor) that they are after.


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## ChrisGraham

Dim7 said:


> I'd say both pure natural minor and natural/harmonic/melodic mixed minor can be found in pop music fairly often. Even in the latter case however they are not necessarily used in a classically orthodox manner.
> 
> When it comes to really popular pop music, it tends to stick to the "four chords" which are I, IV, V, vi in major, which are the same chords as these in the relative minor: i, bIII, bVI, bVII. Harmonic minor doesn't have those same exact chords, and if you use harmonic/melodic minor in the melody it may clash with them. This raises the question why those four chords are so popular, though...


Hi Dim7 - To come back to my example of a song in F minor which repeatedly uses the progression Fm-Db-Ab-Eb, does the song still sound very much as though it is F minor, or more Ab major? And would a V-I of Cminor to F minor still be classed as a perfect cadence? (Even though it's a minor fifth, rather than major)


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## Dim7

ChrisGraham said:


> Hi Dim7 - To come back to my example of a song in F minor which repeatedly uses the progression Fm-Db-Ab-Eb, does the song still sound very much as though it is F minor, or more Ab major?


Probably F minor, based on that chord progression alone.



> And would a V-I of Cminor to F minor still be classed as a perfect cadence? (Even though it's a minor fifth, rather than major)


It wouldn't be classified as an authentic cadence. In popular music, bVII-i is more common than v-i when it comes to natural minor cadences. In classical music, bVII-i would be traditionally considered a "deceptive cadence" in the relative major key (V-vi), however that doesn't really apply in popular music necessarily.


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## millionrainbows

I've always used the white keys as a 'template' for major and minor key stations. If there is a chord built on the b7 degree, I see it as "G" in relation to A minor (since C maj has no b7 white note, only B), so that makes it in a minor key. The same with other white notes in A minor: (A)-B-C-D-E-F-G-A min (A=root, B=min7b5, C=III maj, D=subdominant, E=dominant, F=flatted submediant, G=flatted seventh, A=root).


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## ChrisGraham

millionrainbows said:


> I've always used the white keys as a 'template' for major and minor key stations. If there is a chord built on the b7 degree, I see it as "G" in relation to A minor (since C maj has no b7 white note, only B), so that makes it in a minor key. The same with other white notes in A minor: (A)-B-C-D-E-F-G-A min (A=root, B=min7b5, C=III maj, D=subdominant, E=dominant, F=flatted submediant, G=flatted seventh, A=root).


Hi millionrainbows. Can I ask, what is the b7 degree?


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## millionrainbows

ChrisGraham said:


> Hi millionrainbows. Can I ask, what is the b7 degree?


I hope you're not an academic!

The b7 degree would be a triad built one whole step below the root triad. Our major scale does not have a b7 degree; only the vii (B natural), which is diminished.

The minor does, however: in the white-key A minor scale, this would be a triad built on G.

So whenever I hear a b7-I root movement, even in major, I assume it is derived from this minor-scale relation (major can "borrow" from the minor functions). Or it could be a mixolydian mode/scale key area. Using 'modal' in the modern CP tonal sense, of course, as a scale.

See my blog: http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/millionrainbows/1174-function-harmonic-model-part.html


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## Johne1

Mahlerian said:


> I think it's because the writers are thinking in terms of scales, rather than functional harmony. The dominant with sharpened third is stronger in terms of function because of the leading tone, but the alterations require sensitive handling to avoid undesirable cross-relations (having a G in one measure followed by a G# in the next, for example). There's an idea in popular music circles that notes and chords such as the flatted third and sixth are "outside of the key," which is wrong. They are outside of the scale, but the key is not identical to the scale, and depends on the relationships around a central harmony, not on the associated scale.


You said a LOT! Please direct me where to learn more about "functional harmony" in Classical music. Being raised on Pop and Blues, and now studying Jazz, you made me realize I have a lot to learn from the old Masters (my favourites being Bach and Beethoven).

Thanks!


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## athrun200

Johne1 said:


> You said a LOT! Please direct me where to learn more about "functional harmony" in Classical music. Being raised on Pop and Blues, and now studying Jazz, you made me realize I have a lot to learn from the old Masters (my favourites being Bach and Beethoven).
> 
> Thanks!


If you really want to learn it in a classical approach, Tonal Harmony by Stefan Kostka and Dorothy Payne is a good book to start. You could start right at chapter 7 which introduces the function of each chord. This book contains lots of classical examples and nice exercises with solutions.

Another similar book is Harmony and Voice Leading by Aldwell. But I don't like the Roman numeral style in this book as all chords are notated in capitalized Roman numeral regardless of major or minor chords, causing quite a little confusion if you are a beginner.


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## EdwardBast

Here is an answer for the OP's original question: Because straight dominant to tonic cadences with those g#s sound cheesy.

Good recommendations from Athrun200!


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## tdc

Dim7 said:


> When it comes to really popular pop music, *it tends to stick to the "four chords" which are I, IV, V, vi in major, which are the same chords as these in the relative minor: i, bIII, bVI, bVII.* Harmonic minor doesn't have those same exact chords, and if you use harmonic/melodic minor in the melody it may clash with them. This raises the question why those four chords are so popular, though...


The bVII chord in particular seems to be a very important one in pop and rock regardless of whether the song is in a major or minor based key. So that is one of the main reasons why I think the natural minor is more common in pop - because the 7 is flat.

A lot of songs will use I, IV, bVII with solos over top of this progression using the pentatonic minor and pentatonic major scales. i-IV-bVII or even just i-bVII are also commonly used. The flat 7 chord is almost always played as a major-based chord (often an "add9") or a 5th.


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