# Which works would you most blame someone for not knowing?



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

The situation: I come over to your house. You put on some music. I say, "Oh, that is interesting, what is it?"

And you say, "Oh my goodness, do you really not know? This is ridiculously famous! Everyone knows this! Think about it." 

And I say, "Maybe I've heard it before but I have no idea what it is."

And you say, "Oh jeez buddy. I thought you liked classical music. This is _______________." 

And then after that every time you see me post on talkclassical, you think, "What a poseur." 

Fill in that blank with the works that would most offend or surprise you, the works that you would most strongly denounce me for not knowing.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I'll start with a few... the famous parts of... 

- Pachelbel's Canon
- J. Strauss II's Blue Danube 
- Beethoven's 5th Symphony
- J. Strauss I's Radetsky March 
- Beethoven's 9th Symphony
- Mozart's 40th Symphony 
- Handel's Messiah
- Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture
- Bizet's Carmen 
- Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker 

Of those, perhaps the worst would be Beethoven's 5th or Beethoven's 9th.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Milton Babbitt's Reflections !


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## mirepoix (Feb 1, 2014)

I'm not into blaming people, but in the spirit of the thread -

If you, science, did not recognise the 2nd movement (Assez vif) of Ravel's string quartet I would denounce you to the nth degree with a furrowed brow.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Mussorgsky- Night on Bald Mountain
Tchaikovsky- Piano Concerto 1
Mozart- Lacrimosa from his Requiem


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

aleazk said:


> Milton Babbitt's Reflections !


No problem, baby, no problem. I'd only been listening to classical music about 15 years when I came across that....


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Anybody who doesn't recognize _My Sharona _should be instantly put to death. That's a house rule at my place.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Ok, Bach's third Brandenburg Concerto then, and the Double Violin Concerto.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Adding up the serious responses... 

- Bach: Brandenburg Concerto #3
- Bach: Double Violin Concerto, BWV 1043 
- Beethoven: Symphony #5
- Beethoven: Symphony #9
- Bizet: Carmen 
- Handel: Messiah
- Mozart: Requiem
- Mozart: Symphony #40
- Mussorgsky: Night on Bald Mountain 
- Pachelbel: Canon
- Ravel: String Quartet 
- J. Strauss I: Radetsky March 
- J. Strauss II: Blue Danube 
- Tchaikovsky: 1812 Overture
- Tchaikovsky: Nutcracker 
- Tchaikovsky: Piano Concerto #1


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Vivaldi- The Four Seasons
Chopin- Grand Polonaise Brillante
Schubert- Serenade/Standchen
Schubert- Moments musicaux no. 3 in F minor
Mozart- Ronda alla turca
Beethoven- Moonlight Sonata
Liszt- Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2
Schubert- Sonata in B flat D. 960
Rachmaninov- Piano concerto no. 3
Chopin- Fantasie impromptu
Mozart- The marriage of Figaro


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

None, I don't get the "Blame for not knowing" business.

Now, if someone were seriously pretentious about "Knowing," and it was discovered they did not know as much as they were liking people to think they knew, then I think others wanting to at the very least do some popping of that bubble is a near to natural reaction.)

But really, how about "Absolutely All Of Bach," or ditto for Beethoven, Mozart, etc. LOL.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Lukecash12 said:


> Chopin- Grand Polonaise Brillante
> Schubert- Serenade/Standchen
> Schubert- Moments musicaux no. 3 in F minor
> Liszt- Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2
> ...


??? I might recognise these if I heard them but no way could I sing you the main tune or whatever based on the name!

Shibboleth! No respect for me in Luke's house


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

There are plenty of people on TC who could identify a piece by Messiaen with greater ease than one by, say, Tchaikovsky. 

But even outside of TC I wouldn't get my snob face on - they can probably school me on any number of things in which I am a well of ignorance.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

What, you don't recognize THIS!? Where have you been, my dear chap? It's John Cage's 4:33, you silly goose.

I did a thread about classical music recognition last summer; I confessed that I have a lot of trouble recognizing pieces. Of course, Blue Danube and Da-da-da DAH are hard not to know. Für Elise is another one.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2014)

PetrB said:


> None, I don't get the "Blame for not knowing" business.





mirepoix said:


> I'm not into blaming people


Agreed. I'll not blame anyone. That doesn't stop my raising an eyebrow if someone says they've not heard/heard of x piece, but as I can hardly lay claim to a comprehensive knowledge, I need to keep my eyebrows under control.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

I'd raise an eyebrow - but as if to say: I'm impressed at how many advertisements you've managed to avoid.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Like others, I don't see the point of blaming. Most people encounter classical music through the filter of popular media. It comes as no surprise when they cry out, "Oh, that's the Lone Ranger!" "That's 2001!" "That's Apocalypse Now!"


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Ride of the Valkyries - Wagner
Adagio for strings - Barber
The Thieving Magpie - Rossini
Fur Elise - Beethoven
Op. 27 No. 2("Moonlight" sonata), Op. 57("Appassionata" sonata) - Beethoven 

I mean come on...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Fugue Meister said:


> Ride of the Valkyries - Wagner
> Adagio for strings - Barber
> The Thieving Magpie - Rossini
> Fur Elise - Beethoven
> ...


Ride of the Valkyries - Wagner ~ Siegfried Idyll

Adagio for strings - Barber ~ Knoxville, summer of 1915

The Thieving Magpie - Rossini ~ Petite Messe Solennelle

Fur Elise - Beethoven ~ complete Bagatelles: Op. 33; Op. 119; Op. 126

Op. 27 No. 2("Moonlight" sonata), Op. 57("Appassionata" sonata) - Beethoven ~ The 'cello and piano sonatas

_I mean, c'mon!_


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2014)

science inviting us to blame? inviting us to denounce?

Incroyable.

A very dear friend of mine told me once that he had just heard Beethoven's fourth piano concerto and wow was that a sweet piece.

I was incredulous. For about a second. Besides, since I know this guy as well as I know anyone, I know that his knowledge and understanding of music (including classical) is immense and that he knows a ton of stuff I've never even heard of.

And the other besides, of course, is that there is zero utility to judging someone for what they know or don't know. As PetrB pointed out, judging is for people who pretend to know. And, I would add, who pronounce from a position of not knowing. Otherwise, inutile.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I hate the 'blaming' attitude. 

I'll just suggest a few that come to mind for the essential listening category:

Bartok - Bluebeard's Castle, Concerto for Orchestra, 'Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta', String quartets...
Borodin - Symphony No. 2
Berlioz - Les Troyens 
Delius - A Mass of Life
Liszt's late works - La Lugubre Gondola, Nuages gris, Les jeux d'eaux à la Villa d'Este...
Mahler - Symphony No. 2, Symphony No. 3, Symphony No. 6, Symphony No. 10, Das Lied von der Erde...
Mussorgsky - Boris Godunov (original version)
Schoenberg - Verklärte Nacht, Pierrot Lunaire, Five Pieces for Orchestra, String quartets...
Strauss - Metamorphosen
Sibelius - Symphony No. 4, Symphony No. 5
Szymanowski - Symphony No. 3


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

some guy said:


> science inviting us to blame? inviting us to denounce?
> 
> Incroyable.
> 
> ...


Man, you always so seeweeous. I'm sure the "hate" thing was tongue in cheek. What he basically meant was classical music that most avid WCM appreciators are familiar with. Some of Wrahms' recommendations seem a little obscure for the thread, I mean I have to admit I haven't heard Szymanowski's 3rd.

Here's a few more:

Mendelssohn- Italian Symphony
Strauss- Also Sprach Zarathustra (I mean, everyone has heard that even if they don't know what it is)
Debussy- Claire de Lune (facepalm at twilight, I wonder how many people would be surprised what a Debussy prelude sounds like)


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Hmm, I was going to respond to this with a long list of the sort of music you find on introductory classical compilations: Bach's "Air", Grieg's "Morning", the start of "Also sprach Zarathustra", the duet from "The Pearl Fishers", "O Fortuna", etc...

The thinking being that this is the sort of music that people who don't listen to much classical music might have heard through TV & movies, and so by extension someone who claims to listen to a lot of classical would probably have heard by default anyway.

But I think this might be an age-centric thing to do. For instance, most people in the UK & Ireland over the age of about 42 would probably recognise the "Adagio of Spartacus and Phrygia" from Khachaturian's "Spartacus" because it was used as the theme for the popular TV drama "The Onedin Line" (and we of course therefore associate it with sailing ships rather than slaves' revolts!) - but would even an avid classical listener who was 32 or 22 necessarily have heard it at all? Is there anything like the general exposure to classical music these days that there was thirty years ago? Factor in our dear friend The Internet and the availability of basically any music you might possibly want, and the idea of a canon of music today's listener might be "expected" to know is probably dead.

Now, personally, I think this is a bit of a pity, because although I'm a big fan of the freedom to choose your own path, I also like the idea of common ground.
I suppose I'd be less bemused by the classical listener who's never heard Beethoven's 9th than by the classical listener who has no interest in ever hearing it. Which is a statement about intellectual curiosity rather than about "required listening".

(ETA: If, science, you're more interested in an _actual list_ than the, uh, moral debate, then sure, I'll post that list!)


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## muzik (May 16, 2013)

It is hard for me to associate pieces of music with names and numbers. I get everything mixed up.

When I recognise a piece of music I often just think: "ah this piece" and continue listening to it because I know I will love it. 

This is my definition of "knowing".


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

It is far beyond a stiff upper lip gentleman like oneself to expect anyone else to recognise and instantly name any musical masterpiece! Don't You really think that there are more important things to do, like, instead of taunting them for their apparent lack of sophistication; educating these sophisticationless individuals about the finer things in life by demystifying that difficult classical music.. 

I find that burdening a general audience with expectations of deep knowledge often frightens them away from an enjoyable experience! So beyond singing their national anthem, I don't expect any knowledge at all! (But I am pleasantly surprised if an discussion about works an interpretation comes up...  )

/ptr


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> If, science, you're more interested in an _actual list_ than the, uh, moral debate, then sure, I'll post that list!


Please do!

I am completely uninterested in whether anyone ought to condemn me for what I don't know, and very interested in avoiding that condemnation!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

some guy said:


> science inviting us to blame? inviting us to denounce?
> 
> Incroyable.


"some guy" construing one of my posts in a viciously unfair manner? Must be yet another day on talkclassical.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

One time my friend didn't know that Ode To Joy was in German. He literally thought it was gibberish.

Then he was shocked to learn Beethoven was German, because he thought he was English.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

George Crumb's _Night of the Electric Insects_...the doors are locked and the music doesn't cease until you _do_ know it.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Wow... there are so many pieces on people's serious list of works they'd raise their eyebrows if one didn't know that I haven't heard!


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Change "blame someone for not knowing" to "be shocked they didn't know" and I agree with some of the mentions above (but some clearly aren't in the spirit of the thread).

Stuill, I actually had to go to Youtube to hear what the Radetzky March was. it sounds familiar.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

GreenMamba said:


> Change "blame someone for not knowing" to "be shocked they didn't know" and I agree with some of the mentions above (but some clearly aren't in the spirit of the thread).
> 
> Stuill, I actually had to go to Youtube to hear what the Radetzky March was. it sounds familiar.


The Radetsky March is what set me off on this line of questioning. About four years ago I found out that I didn't know this super famous work... and I wondered... how can I be sure that I'm not missing something else this famous?

Supposedly the internet is riddled with lists...


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> One time my friend didn't know that Ode To Joy was in German. He literally thought it was gibberish.
> 
> Then he was shocked to learn Beethoven was German, because he thought he was English.


Okay, this is the first thing anyone's listed so far that has actually shocked me...


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Okay, this is the first thing anyone's listed so far that has actually shocked me...


I thought he was kidding

He wasn't


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2014)

Well, he was confused by Beethoven having moved to England and writing the Hallelujah Chorus probably.

But seriously, ignorance is something we all have about all sorts of things. It's no thing.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Right, here's a list I put together some years ago when I was making some "popular classics" compilations for a friend. It's based on a trawl through Amazon for the various commercial comps (things like "Best Classical Album of the Millennium… Ever!" and the older and more modest "Your 100 Best Tunes") and a reckoning of which pieces turned up the most on those albums.
So it's a combination of populism and received wisdom I suppose. Also a bit Anglocentric. I guess it reflects a _particular_ kind of view of classical music - the one I and my peers would have inherited in a specific time and place - so I don't expect it to be universal. Still, I'd assume that almost all of the pieces would be known to the avid listener.

Forgive the untidiness but I've no particular interest in thorough formatting! 

albinoni	Adagio in G minor
allegri	Miserere mei, Deus
bach	Orchestral Suites
bach	Jesu, Joy Of Man's Desiring (Cantata No. 147)
bach	Brandenburg Concertos
bach	Toccata and Fugue in D minor
bach	Goldberg Variations
barber	Adagio for Strings
beethoven	Moonlight sonata
beethoven	Symphony No. 9, 'Choral' in D minor
beethoven	Symphony No. 5 in C minor
beethoven	Symphony No. 6, 'Pastoral' in F
beethoven	Fur Elise
beethoven	Symphony No. 7 in A
bellini	Norma - Casta Diva
berlioz	Symphonie fantastique
bizet	Carmen
bizet	Les pêcheurs de perles
bizet	L'Arlésienne
boccherini	Minuet from String Quintet in E, Op 13 No 5
borodin	Prince Igor
bruch	Violin Concerto No. 1 In G Minor Op. 26
canteloube	Bailero (Songs of the Auvergne)
chopin	Waltzes - Minute waltz
chopin	Preludes - Raindrop
copland	Fanfare for the Common Man
debussy	Suite Bergamasque - Clair de Lune
debussy	Préludes - Girl with the flaxen hair
delibes	Lakme: Flower duet
donizetti	L'Elisir d'Amore
dukas	sorcerer's apprentice
dvorak	Symphony No. 9, "From the New World"
dvorak	Rusalka: O Silver Moon
elgar	Variations on an Original Theme, 'Enigma'
elgar	Cello Concerto In E Minor Op. 85
elgar	Pomp and Circumstance
falla	El Amor brujo: Ritual Fire Dance
faure	Requiem
faure	Pavane
gershwin	Rhapsody in Blue
gershwin	Porgy and Bess
gorecki	Symphony No. 3, 'Symphony of Sorrowful Songs'
gounod	Faust
gounod	Ave Maria
grieg	Peer Gynt
grieg	Concerto for Piano and Orchestra in A minor
handel	Messiah
handel	Water Music
handel	Xerxes - Ombra Mai Fù
handel	Solomon - Arrival Of The Queen Of Sheba
handel	Coronation Anthems
holst	The Planets
khachaturian	Spartacus - Adagio of Spartacus & Phrygia
khachaturian	gayaneh - sabre dance
kreisler	liebesfreud
leoncavallo	Pagliacci: Recitar!...Vesti la giubba
liszt	Liebesträum no.3
mahler	Symphony No.5: Adagietto
mascagni	Cavalleria rusticana - intermezzo
massenet	Thaïs: Meditation
mendelssohn	Violin Concerto In E Minor Op. 64
mendelssohn	Midsummer Night's Dream
mendelssohn	Symphony No. 4, 'Italian' in A
mendelssohn	Hebrides, 'Fingal's Cave'
mozart	Eine kleine nachtmusik
mozart	Clarinet Concerto - 2nd mvt
mozart	Piano Concerto No. 21 - 2nd mvt
mozart	Marriage of Figaro
mozart	Horn concerto No. 4 - Finale
mozart	Requiem in D minor
mozart	Symphony No 40 - 1st mvt
mozart	Magic Flute
mozart	Così fan tutte
mozart	Flute & Harp concerto - 2nd mvt
mozart	Don Giovanni
mussorgsky	Pictures at an Exhibition
nyman	The Piano
offenbach	Les contes d'Hoffmann - Barcarolle
orff	Carmina Burana
pachelbel	Canon
prokofiev	Romeo and Juliet
puccini	Madama Butterfly
puccini	Gianni Schicchi: O Mio Babbino Caro
puccini	Turandot
puccini	La bohème
puccini	Tosca
rachmaninov	Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini
rachmaninov	Piano Concerto No 2
ravel	Boléro
ravel	pavane pour une infante defunte
rimsky-korsakov	Scheherazade
rodrigo	Concierto de Aranjuez
rossini	The Barber of Seville
rossini	William Tell Overture
saint-saens	Carnival of the Animals - The Swan
saint-saens	Symphony No. 3 - Finale
satie	Gymnopédies
schubert	Ave Maria 'Ellens Gesang III'
schubert	Piano Quintet in A 'The Trout'
schumann	Kinderszenen Op 15 - Traumerei
shostakovich	The Gadfly - Romance
sibelius	Karelia Suite
sibelius	Finlandia
sibelius	Valse triste
smetana	Má vlast
strauss j	Blue Danube Waltz
strauss j snr	Radetzky March
strauss r	Also sprach Zarathustra
stravinsky	firebird
tarrega	Recuerdos de la Alhambra
tavener	Song for Athene
tchaikovsky	Nutcracker
tchaikovsky	Swan Lake
tchaikovsky	Piano Concerto No. 1
tchaikovsky	1812 overture
vaughan williams	Fantasia on 'Greensleeves'
vaughan williams	The lark ascending
vaughan williams	Fantasia On A Theme By Thomas Tallis
verdi	Nabucco - Chorus of slaves
verdi	Aida
verdi	La traviata
verdi	Il Trovatore
verdi	Rigoletto
verdi	Requiem
villa-lobos	bachianas brasileiras no.5
vivaldi	Four Seasons
wagner	Die Walküre - Ride of the Valkyries


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Anyway, my real response to this is: I can' blame anyone for not knowing certain pieces.

My general age group of 18-21 isn't concerned with classical music. Unless you're a musician or into the arts somehow, it is only safe to assume that you've only heard of Bach, Beethoven, or Mozart, and no other names ring any bells. Big example: most of my friends don't know who Tchaikovsky was. They've heard his music (I just tell him he wrote the Nutcracker), but they just never knew the man who wrote it. Same with Wagner, none of them knew who Wagner was until I hummed Ride of the Valkyries 
(which my one friend thought was just music written for Apocalypse Now. Oy vey).

So, in short, I can't blame anyone for not hearing any of the big popular works. They will recognize melodies, but they won't know names or composers. Not a bad thing.

Edit: I should add that what I mean is that I find it safe to assume that someone I'm talking to has only heard of the big three, unless proven otherwise. A few friends surprised me when they were talking about their vinyl records and one of them said she loved Rach's 3rd


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

> The situation: I come over to your house. You put on some music. I say, "Oh, that is interesting, what is it?"


This is pure fantasy. The notion that anyone would ever come over to my house to hear classical music is alien to me.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> cut


That's a nice list of pieces, but I would advise a beginner (like me or anyone else) to listen to some Brahms or Mahler symphonies before completing that list. As in, there is a lot on your list I haven't heard, but I don't know... My current exploration of 20th century music seems more important than going through a bunch of famous works that I "should" know (with heavy emphasis on the quotes).


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

some guy said:


> science inviting us to blame? inviting us to denounce?
> 
> Incroyable.
> 
> ...


Speaking of popular works that one would think one other would hear if one had some taste in classical tunage... I haven't heard any of Beethoven's piano concertos, to be honest... and I have absolutely no idea why. Keeping a flair of mystery in my life, I suppose? Simply forget to check it out? Dunno'.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Okay, this is the first thing anyone's listed so far that has actually shocked me...


Sooooo.... wondering if that gibberish came off as a string of homophones, lending Luigi / Schiller's _Ode to Joy_ the same qualities of 'misheard' as we have here for Orff's _O, Fortuna,_ from his _Carmina Burana_ ?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

techniquest said:


> This is pure fantasy. The notion that anyone would ever come over to my house to hear classical music is alien to me.


Don't the fourteen-foot tall electrified chain-link fence with the rolled razor wire at the top and the twenty-three patrolling German Shepherds, Rottweilers, and Dobermans have more to do with that than anything else?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

SeptimalTritone said:


> That's a nice list of pieces, but I would advise a beginner (like me or anyone else) to listen to some Brahms or Mahler symphonies before completing that list. As in, there is a lot on your list I haven't heard, but I don't know... My current exploration of 20th century music seems more important than going through a bunch of famous works that I "should" know (with heavy emphasis on the quotes).


Well, _for the purposes of this thread_, it's not a list for beginners, it's essentially a list of things that, if someone had come to classical music in the same way as I did, I'd be surprised they hadn't heard (or heard of).
Call it a list of "would hear" rather than "should hear".


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Vesuvius said:


> Speaking of popular works that one would think one other would hear if one had some taste in classical tunage... I haven't heard any of Beethoven's piano concertos, to be honest... and I have absolutely no idea why. Keeping a flair of mystery in my life, I suppose? Simply forget to check it out? Dunno'.


And at that I do raise my eyebrow in surprise :lol: I guess we've finally found our scapegoat, science. But to be honest, I didn't hear them either until I was in my thirties, and by then I had been listening to Beethoven since I was five.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

Since we are talking about musical ignorance among the masses, I am more troubled by their misattribution of Classical music pieces. I remember poignantly the time when one of my "country cousins" from Pennsylvania positively remarked that Holst's Mars was not, in fact, from The Planets Suite, but "You know, when the Death Star was about to fire on Yavin!".


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> ...he was shocked to learn Beethoven *was German*, because he thought he *was English.*


What, Beethoven's not English and _*he's dead???! *_


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Antiquarian said:


> Since we are talking about musical ignorance among the masses, I am more troubled by their misattribution of Classical music pieces. I remember poignantly the time when one of my "country cousins" from Pennsylvania positively remarked that Holst's Mars was not, in fact, from The Planets Suite, but "You know, when the Death Star was about to fire on Yavin!".


How could he mistake Yavin 4 for Yavin?


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Anybody who doesn't recognize _My Sharona _should be instantly put to death. That's a house rule at my place.


The tune is catchy enough, but it might be hard to guess the title.

Nice Aroma?

This was apparently the original artwork for the single:










This also might cause some confusion. Or might explain the fixation!


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