# Christopher Hogwood's Haydn Symphonies



## clavichorder

I discovered that Hogwood's Haydn symphonies are uploaded on youtube. I am liking what I am hearing. Are they on period instruments? I know it is not a complete set, but quite a few symphonies seem to be there. What's your take?


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## Bulldog

Yes, they are on period instruments.


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## Sonata

I plan to listen through his whole available set on YouTube. I really like what I'm hearing so far.


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## realdealblues

Most reviews I read were not favorable. I thought they were "ok".

Music Critic David Hurwitz wrote:
"The performances themselves stand as the dullest available. Hogwood’s approach to this music lacks any vestige of emotional involvement. He’s completely mechanical. Slow movements, with their vibrato-less strings and thin tone sound completely soulless, while the quicker ones move with a choppy, routine vigor. As an example, compare the brilliant triple-fugue finale of Symphony No. 70 to a couple of past versions. David Blum with the pick-up Esterhazy Orchestra on Vanguard offers a swifter basic tempo with more vivid dynamic contrasts and far richer instrumental color. Dorati’s classic version (on Decca) has more weight, and while heavier, really brings out the minor-key mystery and threat latent in the movement’s quieter passages. Both versions not only characterize the music infinitely more strongly than does Hogwood, they reveal more inner detail and tension, and order the movement in big, sweeping paragraphs rather than in short, clipped phrases."

While I wouldn't go quite as far as he did in calling them "completely soulless", I do find them "choppy" and overall the tone to be too "wimpy". Dorati is still my pick. If you're wanting Haydn Symphonies on "period instruments" I would check out Roy Goodman's Hanover Band. He never completed the cycle either but he did record a lot of the Symphonies. Bruggen, Kuijken and Pinnock also have done some good recordings on Period Instruments.


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## Guest

I agree that Hogwood's are not my preferred recordings, but I still find them very good. Take Hurwitz' criticism with a grain of salt - in general, he is not a big fan of HIP recordings. 

There are other great selections, if you don't have to have the complete set from one group.


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## Bulldog

I'm not much into Haydn symphonies, but I do know a lot of folks who love Hogwood's.


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## Itullian

I agree with Hurwitz. Thin and choppy.
Goodman's are MUCH better.
mho


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## Cheyenne

Hogwood recorded Nos. 100 and 104 first in 1983, and Nos. 94 and 96 a year later. Near the end of the 1980s, the Academy of Ancient Music started a brand new Haydn cycle, starting with the first bunch, but they only finished up to 75. I have the fourth volume, featuring mostly symphonies numbering in the late 20s and early 30s, as well as the four London Symphonies they recorded earlier. I don't like them at all, and have ceased listening to them. Kiujken has some great period instrument recordings of the Paris and London Symphonies; Pinnock did the Storm und Drang symphonies; there's an excellent Jacobs disc with 91 and 91; and Goodman did many of the others well. If modern instruments are an option, Bernstein is great for the Paris symphonies, while Szell, Beecham, Jochum, Davis and Bernstein once more have great London sets. Some extra recordings by Scherchen, Walter, Fricsay, Klemperer, Schuricht, Rattle and Furtwängler are also worth your time. I've heard great things about Fey, but haven't listened to any of his recordings yet.


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## clavichorder

Are you kidding me? What I am hearing so far is revelatory! I will take Hurwitz with a grain of salt. I am greatly preferring the middle symphonies of Hogwood's to Fischer's. Maybe criticism comes from fixation on Haydn's later symphonies? Those are already well established to many ears on modern instruments, maybe?

Regarding Pinnock, I am pleased to hear he has done some. I know of the Hanover Band recordings and have been very impressed.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

I found Hogwood's sound a bit thin too. I liked the way he did some of the movements, and it is apparent from the care in the liner notes that he loved this music. I think he needed a bit more 'sparkle' in the string sound, Bruno Weil and the Tafelmusik do an excellent job with the orchestral sound imo.


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## Itullian

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I found Hogwood's sound a bit thin too. I liked the way he did some of the movements, and it is apparent from the care in the liner notes that he loved this music. I think he needed a bit more 'sparkle' in the string sound, Bruno Weil and the* Tafelmusik do an excellent job with the orchestral sound imo.*




Wish they'd have done more.


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## Guest

realdealblues said:


> Most reviews I read were not favorable. I thought they were "ok".


So to what extent are the criticisms inevitable if the symphonies are being played on HIP instruments? Perhaps, if they are more realistic, Haydn wrote 'thin and soulless'?


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## bharbeke

I read somewhere that Hogwood took every repeat possible in Haydn's symphonies. That certainly makes his versions longer but not necessarily better. I am not a big fan of HIP and period instruments, so I am not a big fan of Hogwood's Haydn symphonies.

I've made one run through Haydn's symphonies on YouTube, and the choice there is generally Fischer or Hogwood for a lot of the early and middle symphonies. Since I didn't know too much about either, I did end up listening to some Hogwood. Here are some that worked for me:

20, 33, 38

It will be fun to try different versions of these next time to see how much of my impression was due to strong source material versus the interpretation.

As an aside, he also did a nice job with Mozart's Symphony No. 24.


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## Itullian

MacLeod said:


> So to what extent are the criticisms inevitable if the symphonies are being played on HIP instruments? Perhaps, if they are more realistic,* Haydn wrote 'thin and soulless'*?


No way.............


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## HaydnBearstheClock

MacLeod said:


> So to what extent are the criticisms inevitable if the symphonies are being played on HIP instruments? Perhaps, if they are more realistic, Haydn wrote 'thin and soulless'?


Another one of these silly posts. Man oh man.


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## Guest

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Another one of these silly posts. Man oh man.


Why silly? I wasn't there when Haydn was composing, so I don't know what his compositions would have sounded like at the time - do you? I'm sure that he wouldn't have considered them thin and soulless, but that doesn't stop them sounding so to our ears, used to Davis and the Concertgebouw.

I wonder whether, by contrast, a rendition by a modern full blown orchestra of, say, the _Surprise _symphony might have sounded quite alien, even unappealing to Haydn?


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## HaydnBearstheClock

MacLeod said:


> Why silly? I wasn't there when Haydn was composing, so I don't know what his compositions would have sounded like at the time - do you? I'm sure that he wouldn't have considered them thin and soulless, but that doesn't stop them sounding so to out ears, used to Davis and the Concertgebouw.
> 
> I wonder whether, by contrast, a rendition by a modern full blown orchestra of, say, the _Surprise _symphony might have sounded quite alien, even unappealing to Haydn?


I thought you were referring to the music itself, sorry, I think I misunderstood your post. What did you mean to say? I think HIP isn't necessarily 'soulless', there are many great things you can do with its sound imo.


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## MagneticGhost

I haven't yet heard Hogwood's symphonies but his recording of The Creation with Emma Kirby et al. is a joy.
One of my desert island discs for sure.


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## Guest

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I thought you were referring to the music itself, sorry, I think I misunderstood your post. What did you mean to say? I think HIP isn't necessarily 'soulless', there are many great things you can do with its sound imo.


I simply meant that ears accustomed to listening to modern orchestral renderings of music written over 200 years ago might well find a rendering using contemporary instruments not to their liking.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

MacLeod said:


> I simply meant that ears accustomed to listening to modern orchestral renderings of music written over 200 years ago might well find a rendering using contemporary instruments not to their liking.


I see, well actually for Haydn I tend to prefer period instruments because of the more transparent string sound which allows the winds to come through very clearly. The symphonies also tend to sound lighter and to 'sparkle' a bit more with HIP, imo; but I generally enjoy any professional Haydn performance .


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## realdealblues

MacLeod said:


> So to what extent are the criticisms inevitable if the symphonies are being played on HIP instruments? Perhaps, if they are more realistic, Haydn wrote 'thin and soulless'?


Trevor Pinnock and the English Concert don't sound thin. They sound leaner than modern instruments, yes, but not thin or as jagged as Hogwood and the Academy Of Ancient Music.

As innovative as Haydn and Mozart and the likes were, I don't believe for one moment they would have disliked modern instruments or chosen period instruments over modern. They were always pushing boundaries and looking for the next best thing. They dumped the Harpsichord in favor of the Fortepiano and no doubt they would have both traded in their Fortepiano's for a modern Steinway Grand in a heartbeat. They would have loved the extra volume and resonance they would have gotten from modern instruments. It's interesting to hear Period recordings because they do represent what the composers were hearing back then, but those composers were always advancing, evolving and forward thinking and would no doubt be conducting orchestras and writing for modern instruments if they were still alive.


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## Guest

realdealblues said:


> Trevor Pinnock and the English Concert don't sound thin. They sound leaner than modern instruments, yes, but not thin or as jagged as Hogwood and the Academy Of Ancient Music.
> 
> As innovative as Haydn and Mozart and the likes were, I don't believe for one moment they would have disliked modern instruments or chosen period instruments over modern. They were always pushing boundaries and looking for the next best thing. They dumped the Harpsichord in favor of the Fortepiano and no doubt they would have both traded in their Fortepiano's for a modern Steinway Grand in a heartbeat. They would have loved the extra volume and resonance they would have gotten from modern instruments. It's interesting to hear Period recordings because they do represent what the composers were hearing back then, but those composers were always advancing, evolving and forward thinking and would no doubt be conducting orchestras and writing for modern instruments if they were still alive.


Maybe they would have approved. In which case, it supports my speculation that they would have viewed their instruments as providing insufficient power (volume, resonance) and they would have agreed with the criticism noted in the OP.


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## Larkenfield

realdealblues said:


> Trevor Pinnock and the English Concert don't sound thin. They sound leaner than modern instruments, yes, but not thin or as jagged as Hogwood and the Academy Of Ancient Music.
> 
> As innovative as Haydn and Mozart and the likes were, I don't believe for one moment they would have disliked modern instruments or chosen period instruments over modern. They were always pushing boundaries and looking for the next best thing. They dumped the Harpsichord in favor of the Fortepiano and no doubt they would have both traded in their Fortepiano's for a modern Steinway Grand in a heartbeat. They would have loved the extra volume and resonance they would have gotten from modern instruments. It's interesting to hear Period recordings because they do represent what the composers were hearing back then, but those composers were always advancing, evolving and forward thinking and would no doubt be conducting orchestras and writing for modern instruments if they were still alive.


Bravo. I believe Bach would have done the same thing. He'd be open to any possible advancements or improvements in the instruments of his day if they sounded as bad as some of these period instruments do today. Some of the harpsichords and pianoforte sound like rattle traps and their awful sound is presented as being authentic to the period in which the music of Mozart and Haydn was composed.


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## Merl

I'm with Hurwitz on his summary. I find Hogwood's traversals rather dull. much rather have Fischer or Dorati, yet each of those sets have slight niggles for me.


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