# What classical piece represents humanity?



## Declined

If you had the impossible task of selecting a classical(in the broad sense) work to represent humanity, what would you select?


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## Guest

Since it's impossible, I would decline.


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## Declined

I was afraid of that.


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## SimonNZ

To represent humanity? Carl Sagan has already decided for us:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_Golden_Record


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## tdc

I'm guessing the OP believes the answer is Beethoven's 9th.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

tdc said:


> I'm guessing the OP believes the answer is Beethoven's 9th.


I think that's become a sort of cliché, unfortunately. In a way, I think any music can 'represent humanity', or certain aspects of it. Celtic folk music, rock music, metal music, pop music, hip-hop, techno - are all representations of a certain human world vision or certain human states of mind or feelings.


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## DiesIraeCX

Declined said:


> I was afraid of that.


If I were a character in _Inception_, some guy "thinking that a thread is beneath him" would be my own personal Totem. It would confirm that I was in reality and not still dreaming.


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## DiesIraeCX

It's a good question, Declined. I would think that there are some pieces that are explicitly about humanity, like Beethoven's 9th. It right there in the final movement text. If it truly succeeds in encompassing the breadth of humanity, I don't know.

Other than, I'm with SimonNZ, the "Voyager Golden Record" is literally supposed to "represent humanity" (to the rest of the Universe). Regardless of whether the music itself on the record itself represents humanity.


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## Mandryka

Declined said:


> If you had the impossible task of selecting a classical(in the broad sense) work to represent humanity, what would you select?


The garden scene, when the contessa forgives Almaviva.


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## PetrB

SimonNZ said:


> To represent humanity? Carl Sagan has already decided for us:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_Golden_Record


And not that they're the best choices. Anthony Burgess suggested the finale of Mozart's 40th symphony as a pinnacle of the more elevated type of musical human achievement, and thought that should have been sent out in space.

*Edit: Here is a link naming the specific selections, an impossible choice which never would have happened if it had been a forming list in a thread on TC  There is a creditable representative smattering of selections, including classical / traditional non-western musics. (The Beethoven that is on there might surprise more than a few folk.

http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/music.html*


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## PetrB

The least little ditty comprising a short sequence of notes would do, really.

I'm certain some would say the inevitable first choices, that Germanic top of the classical pops trio, Bach, Beethoven or Mozart, but that really implies "Humanity' is Germanic," and I find that not only reductive / simplistic, but downright repellent, i.e. humanity is one nationality, western culture, etc.

Why not the Ramayana Monkey Chant, some rousing Gamelan music, or some Chinese Imperial court music, or... this Kalumbu song




Is this bit of music any less fit 'to represent humanity?' -- I wonder.

eh?

Oh! I see. Western classical music is supposed to 'represent humanity?'

Ha Haaaaaa Haaaaaaaaaa.

I think something like these would do a better job of the task:


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## csacks

It was the Choral Symphony what came to my mind. It is certainly a cliché, but what else that a cliché would it be with such a question. 
What would be amazing is to notice that if some living form founds that record, they may believe that we speak german, which would create a false image of a civilization far more intelligent that what we really are. Les Luthiers, a group of very fine argentinians comedians and musicians say that German is not a real language. They do not understand each other when they talk. It is just to impress to the tourists.


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## PetrB

tdc said:


> I'm guessing the OP believes the answer is Beethoven's 9th.


_Do ya think?_ :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## quack

The clue is in the title:






Plus every piece of music ever written or unwritten as well of course.


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## Triplets

There are many definitions of "humanity". Which one is the OP referring to?


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## Blancrocher

quack said:


> Plus every piece of music ever written or unwritten as well of course.


Personally, I think Holst's "The Planets" should be ruled out since he didn't even deign to include our own in it.


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## quack

Perhaps it would be easier to make a list of inhuman music. _The Planets_ though aren't really about the Venusian landscape et al., but about people's astrological interpretation of them. Gosh this is tough.


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## Art Rock

Penderecki's Threnody for the victims of Hiroshima.


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## hpowders

Post deleted on further thought. See post #29.


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## arpeggio

*The Good, the Bad & the Ugly*

The problem that I have with questions like this is the implication that music that is excluded would some how be unworthy.

Most of the works that are recommended represent the positive side of humanity. What about the works that address the dark side of humanity like Schoenberg's _A Survivor from Warsaw_.

_The Planets_ may be better than previously suggested because it addresses the various faces of mankind from the inhumanity of war (_Mars_) to the joyfulness of _Jupiter_.

There are other works that may be like _The Planets_. Maybe Respighi's _Roman Festival's_.


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## Clairvoyance Enough

Dittersdorf's 4th


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## science

Declined said:


> If you had the impossible task of selecting a classical(in the broad sense) work to represent humanity, what would you select?


Haters gonna hate, friend.

I just wrote up a thing about Crumb's Black Angels last night, so I feel bad choosing it, but I would. If that's not allowed, well, off the top of my head... maybe Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_.


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## SONNET CLV

Though I almost hate to bring it up one more time on this board, I must nominate John Cage's 4'33'", as it remains a fully inclusive work of musical art in ways nothing else achieves.

Since humanity is far reaching and diverse in definition, no single culturally ethnic or period piece does the job of representing the fullness that is humanity. What Cage presents is a philosophical end-point of_ all _music. I'm sure that even intelligent aliens who have no hearing mechanism can appreciate the profundity at the basis of this piece. Only a thoughtful human could have produced it. Too, it can offend no one group of musical elites, nor inspire them to even more egocentricity.

In its strange little way, 4'33" achieves a perfection of representing human achievement in musical art. No small task.

By the way, my second choice by default remains Pink Floyd's _The Wall _... so what do I know?


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## hpowders

Post deleted on further musing on the issue. See post #29.


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## MagneticGhost

Mahler's 2nd Symphony. - The Whole World - all our hopes and fears, our nightmares, our solace, our spirituality, our religion, our mysticism, our humanism. And some cracking good tunes. A summation. The pinnacle of Western Music. The best of us.

Rule 1. When you send your representative - Show your best side.


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## hpowders

Actually the "humanity" comes from the listener.

Play Beethoven's Fifth or Ninth for terrorists beheading people in the Middle East and the "humanity" message is "in one ear and out the other".


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## Skilmarilion

SONNET CLV said:


> Though I almost hate to bring it up one more time on this board, I must nominate John Cage's 4'33'", as it remains a fully inclusive work of musical art in ways nothing else achieves.
> 
> Since humanity is far reaching and diverse in definition, no single culturally ethnic or period piece does the job of representing the fullness that is humanity. What Cage presents is a philosophical end-point of_ all _music. I'm sure that even intelligent aliens who have no hearing mechanism can appreciate the profundity at the basis of this piece. *Only a thoughtful human could have produced it.*


The problem with 4'33", is that _any_ human could have produced it. Like much conceptual art, it's artistic worth is diminished because of this imo.

re: the OP, the only thing that comes to my mind would perhaps be Mahler's 3rd -- I find it to be a more than satisfying musical presentation of not just humanity, but creation, our existence, 'the world', etc.


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## MagneticGhost

^^^^^
Perhaps we can have 2 and 3 representing us. I often feel they go together.


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## hpowders

HUMANITY? Better one explores what the word has represented through history before attempting to label some musical ideal as representing "humanity".

Were the Nazis representative of "humanity"? How about the Crusaders or the Ancient Romans? The mid-eastern terrorists?

In sum, can anyone name any piece of music that incorporates both the good and the bad that "humanity" has represented through history?

What we are doing is naming musical selections representing some fairy tale ideal of what we would like 'humanity" to be or have been.

Beethoven's Fifth? Beethoven's Ninth?

Sorry. The history of "humanity" on planet earth hasn't and most likely never will live up to the idealized musical hype.


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## kikko

Probably something by Bach because without him we wouldn't have the music we know.


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## MagneticGhost

hpowders said:


> HUMANITY? Better one explores what the word has represented through history before attempting to label some musical ideal as representing "humanity".
> 
> Were the Nazis representative of "humanity"? How about the Crusaders or the Ancient Romans? The mid-eastern terrorists?
> 
> In sum, can anyone name any piece of music that incorporates both the good and the bad that "humanity" has represented through history?
> 
> What we are doing is naming musical selections representing some fairy tale ideal of what we would like 'humanity" to be or have been.
> 
> Beethoven's Fifth? Beethoven's Ninth?
> 
> Sorry. The history of "humanity" on planet earth hasn't and most likely never will live up to the idealized musical hype.


Yes but as I said above - surely we show our best side. And our worse side we label inhumanity even if inaccurate.


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## hpowders

MagneticGhost said:


> Yes but as I said above - surely we show our best side. And our worse side we label inhumanity even if inaccurate.


Now if the title was "Which pieces of music represent Humanity's ideal?", I would have no issue.


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## science

hpowders said:


> Were the Nazis representative of "humanity"?


Yes, and humanity at our best is when we acknowledge it honestly, which is why I picked "Black Angels." I think it's the most honest work of music I've ever heard.


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## starthrower

Music represents creativity. The Nazis were all about destruction. I wouldn't choose any classical piece to represent the dark side of humanity. I'd go with propaganda songs or national anthems.


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## PetrB

starthrower said:


> Music represents creativity. The Nazis were all about destruction. I wouldn't choose any classical piece to represent the dark side of humanity. I'd go with propaganda songs or national anthems.


National Anthems _are_ propaganda songs


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## science

starthrower said:


> I wouldn't choose any classical piece to represent the dark side of humanity.


What about classical music that intends to represent that?


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## starthrower

Getting back to the OP's question, it's absurd to think a piece of western art music can represent all of humanity. Humanity is much too diverse. And music being a social activity, you would have to include folk melodies, dance music, church music, disco, etc..


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## starthrower

science said:


> What about classical music that intends to represent that?


I recently listened to Henze's 9th symphony, a choral work which is dedicated to the heroes and martyrs of German anti-fascism.


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## starthrower

Speaking of Henze's 9th, the EMI live recording sounds a bit murky and undefined. I'd like to hear the Wergo recording. The samples sound a lot clearer.


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## GGluek

Beethoven's E-flat quartet, Op. 127.


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## Itullian

LvB 9th symphony


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## SiegendesLicht

PetrB said:


> The least little ditty comprising a short sequence of notes would do, really.
> 
> I'm certain some would say the inevitable first choices, that Germanic top of the classical pops trio, Bach, Beethoven or Mozart, but that really implies "Humanity' is Germanic," and I find that not only reductive / simplistic, but downright repellent, i.e. humanity is one nationality, western culture, etc.


No, it would not mean humanity is Germanic, it would mean those men were gifted with a superior ability to capture the essense of what it means to be human, regardless of nationality, and to translate this essense into sounds. I would rather nominate Mahler's 2nd, 3rd or 8th though.


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## PetrB

SiegendesLicht said:


> No, it would not mean humanity is Germanic, it would mean those men were gifted with a superior ability to capture the essense of what it means to be human, regardless of nationality, and to translate this essense into sounds. I would rather nominate Mahler's 2nd, 3rd or 8th though.


No matter what piece of classical music might be nominated "to represent [_all of_] humanity," the nominations or any choice therefrom _end up as hopelessly parochial_ in relationship to the phrase "represent [_all of_] humanity."


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## hpowders

Perhaps the Immolation Scene from Wagner's Götterdämmerung.

Time to blow up the world and start over with hopefully, a better cast of characters.

"Humanity"? Humbug!!


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## Richannes Wrahms

Some think the 'Ode to Joy' has been absorbed by culture to collectively depict humanity as a mass of contradictory and imbecile ideological beings.






I prefer Der Ring des Nibelungen.


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## PetrB

A perfect fifth in a sustained drone; duration, 1000 years.

That _could_ represent "humanity."


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## hpowders

A "sustained drone". Sounds like the nicest thing anybody said about my HS physics teacher.


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## OlivierM

I'm a horribly grumpy person who has lost all illusions about mankind, so I'd say that tune would have to be immensely stupid, greedy, selfish, deceiving, intolerant and presomptuous, and, as if it wasn't enough, satisfied from all of this.
If you have a classical piece responding to that definition, tell the name, I have to listen to it.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

OlivierM said:


> I'm a horribly grumpy person who has lost all illusions about mankind, so I'd say that tune would have to be immensely stupid, greedy, selfish, deceiving, intolerant and presomptuous, and, as if it wasn't enough, satisfied from all of this.
> If you have a classical piece responding to that definition, tell the name, I have to listen to it.


Hehe, OlivierM, that comment reminded me of Flaubert . But c'mon, there are many great things in the world - take, for example, the music the masters have left behind for us.


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## DiesIraeCX

Richannes Wrahms said:


>


Forgetting for a second that Slavoj Zizek is an arrogant jackass. I'm glad you posted that video, it only helps the case of Beethoven's 9th representing humanity. Beethoven's message isn't attacked by Zizek, he claims that it has been appropriated and misappropriated continually by the good and the bad... Is humanity only the good, or is it the bad and the ugly as well? I think it's all of it. Beethoven's 9th and its "message" is _non-essential_ in this case, it doesn't necessarily have to come into play... In an *actual tangible and real way*, for better or for worse, contradictory and rational, it has *quite literally* represented humanity in its best and worst aspects.

So, whether you think it's cliched to choose Beethoven's 9th or not (I assert it's only cliched because one automatically thinks of the admittedly cliched Utopian imagery), I think it has as good of a case if not better than any other musical work not because of the music, but because of its tangible impact and importance, explained above and in the video.


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## Vaneyes

What classical piece represents humanity?Too many to list. Better to ask, What doesn't?

Mahler Symphony No. 3, Elgar Enigma Variations, Berlioz Harold in Italy.:tiphat:


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## Antiquarian

I don't know... Of the top of my head and in my present mood (colored by C. Hogwoods death and contemplation of human mortality) I would suggest Richard Strauss' 'Death and Transfiguration' Op. 24.


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## Crudblud

Julius Fučík's_ Entrance of the Gladiators_

What else could illustrate so perfectly to an absolutely ignorant being, never having seen so much as a fledgling hair upon a newborn baby's head, the side-show of absurdity, the testament to pettiness, the low-rent cheesefest that is the human race?


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## trazom

Well, hopefully none. I don't like the idea of being lumped with everyone else under a single piece of music, especially some of the more vulgar popular pieces that are played at every summer.


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## Declined

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I think that's become a sort of cliché, unfortunately. In a way, I think any music can 'represent humanity', or certain aspects of it. Celtic folk music, rock music, metal music, pop music, hip-hop, techno - are all representations of a certain human world vision or certain human states of mind or feelings.


I'm inclined to agree.


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## Declined

arpeggio said:


> The problem that I have with questions like this is the implication that music that is excluded would some how be unworthy.
> 
> Most of the works that are recommended represent the positive side of humanity. What about the works that address the dark side of humanity like Schoenberg's _A Survivor from Warsaw_.
> 
> _The Planets_ may be better than previously suggested because it addresses the various faces of mankind from the inhumanity of war (_Mars_) to the joyfulness of _Jupiter_.
> 
> There are other works that may be like _The Planets_. Maybe Respighi's _Roman Festival's_.


Since we no doubt have our many flaws, music that represents us should absolutely represent the dark side of humanity.


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## bigshot

On some days, I would say the overture to Tristan und Isolde... on other days, Ode to Joy. On other days, Kabalevsky's Comedians. It all depends.


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## PetrB

Crudblud said:


> Julius Fučík's_ Entrance of the Gladiators_
> 
> *What else could illustrate so perfectly to an absolutely ignorant being, never having seen so much as a fledgling hair upon a newborn baby's head, the side-show of absurdity, the testament to pettiness, the low-rent cheesefest that is the human race?*


*Just about any cheesy and hypo-inflated Hollywood film score with a 'big finish.'* Take your pick, there are literally several hundreds which are perfectly interchangeable.


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## PetrB

Skilmarilion said:


> The problem with 4'33", is that _any_ human could have produced it.


Somewhere on TC, some sage poster made a very good point, that in sciences, maths and like disciplines, the astounding leaps of thought and discoveries would inevitably be made by another, where in music, you've got a good number of representative pieces which would not 'have later been come up with by another.'

Sorry, since 4'33'' is art (not science) it is ludicrous to think "Any human could have produced 4'33'' "


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## PetrB

Who is to say that the classical music on the Voyager gold record, if found by a civilization advanced enough to decode it and listen to those musical selections, would not be considered primitive and simple by that civilization? Maybe the Bach -- a supposed intellectual and spiritual pinnacle of 18th century north European variety counterpoint -- might be thought of as no more sophisticated (or less sophisticated than) this child's toy:







Which reminds me of the meme which has Star Trek's Spock saying, "Higgs boson particle? Yes, I vaguely remember we learned about that in kindergarten."

Conversely, if found by another civilization, that gold record might end up with a hole laboriously drilled in it, a string made from an animal sinew threaded through it, and then worn as an ornament around the neck of some tribal chieftain -- that is if the whole kit and kaboodle sent into space did not burn up in entering an atmosphere heavier than anticipated, or land, undetected, in an ocean on a planet where the people did no more than a bit of coastal sailing, if any.


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## Tsaraslondon

hpowders said:


> HUMANITY? Better one explores what the word has represented through history before attempting to label some musical ideal as representing "humanity".
> 
> Were the Nazis representative of "humanity"? How about the Crusaders or the Ancient Romans? The mid-eastern terrorists?
> 
> In sum, can anyone name any piece of music that incorporates both the good and the bad that "humanity" has represented through history?
> 
> What we are doing is naming musical selections representing some fairy tale ideal of what we would like 'humanity" to be or have been.
> 
> Beethoven's Fifth? Beethoven's Ninth?
> 
> Sorry. The history of "humanity" on planet earth hasn't and most likely never will live up to the idealized musical hype.


Maybe the question should be, "What piece of music represents humanism", which is a philosophy and an ideal, and one I subscribe to. But what piece of music could possibly represent _all_ of humanity, the horrors perpetrated by it as well as the wonders.


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## Triplets

GregMitchell said:


> Maybe the question should be, "What piece of music represents humanism", which is a philosophy and an ideal, and one I subscribe to. But what piece of music could possibly represent _all_ of humanity, the horrors perpetrated by it as well as the wonders.


That is why I asked the OP to clarify what they wanted. Do we wish to represent the ugliness and horrors that people have inflicted upon others through the ages, or the better part of human nature? Or is the OP looking for a single piece that comments on the Duality of Human Nature? If so, then I would suggest Brahms 4th or Mahler 6th Symphony. Both works plumb the heights and depths of Human experience and the endings of both suggest that the world is a tragic place.


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## Igneous01

PetrB said:


> Conversely, if found by another civilization, that gold record might end up with a hole laboriously drilled in it, a string made from an animal sinew threaded through it, and then worn as an ornament around the neck of some tribal chieftain -- that is if the whole kit and kaboodle sent into space did not burn up in entering an atmosphere heavier than anticipated, or land, undetected, in an ocean on a planet where the people did no more than a bit of coastal sailing, if any.


It's already been found by the Decepticons, they are just too busy fighting the autobots to send a message back


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## Declined

Triplets said:


> That is why I asked the OP to clarify what they wanted. Do we wish to represent the ugliness and horrors that people have inflicted upon others through the ages, or the better part of human nature? Or is the OP looking for a single piece that comments on the Duality of Human Nature? If so, then I would suggest Brahms 4th or Mahler 6th Symphony. Both works plumb the heights and depths of Human experience and the endings of both suggest that the world is a tragic place.


I want you to select a work or works that best represents humanity and/or what it means to be human. How you chose to represent humanity I leave entirely to your own discretion.


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## PetrB

Igneous01 said:


> It's already been found by the Decepticons, they are just too busy fighting the autobots to send a message back


And I've heard they do not give three Decepticonian figs for high culture, wherever it is from!


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## science

GregMitchell said:


> Maybe the question should be, "What piece of music represents humanism", which is a philosophy and an ideal, and one I subscribe to. But what piece of music could possibly represent _all_ of humanity, the horrors perpetrated by it as well as the wonders.


I like this question better. I'm not a great fan of humanity, but humanism is the best -ism we've thought up yet.

A work to represent humanism...

I'll make some nominations rather than choosing one: 
- Rzewski: Variations on "The People United Will Never Be Defeated" 
- Janacek: Piano Sonata 1. X. 1905 
- Nono: Intolleranza 1960


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## Guest

Declined said:


> I want you to select a work or works that best represents humanity and/or what it means to be human. How you chose to represent humanity I leave entirely to your own discretion.


Ah. Well, now my response is a question: "Why?"

Why do you want me (us) to select a work or works that best represent what it means to be human?

A corollary to that would be "Why do you think that there is a work or even that there are works that best represent what it means to be human?" *Since every single work by every single composer has been written by a human, then every single work is an example of how a human writes music.* Dunno about all that there "what it means to be human" bit. I'm a human, and I have no idea even what that question is supposed to mean. Too busy just being alive and doing all the things that go along with that state of affairs, I guess.

Anyway, that would be my answer, the works that represent humanity (I leave off the "best" part) are "all."


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## Declined

some guy said:


> Ah. Well, now my response is a question: "Why?"
> 
> Why do you want me (us) to select a work or works that best represent what it means to be human?
> 
> A corollary to that would be "Why do you think that there is a work or even that there are works that best represent what it means to be human?" *Since every single work by every single composer has been written by a human, then every single work is an example of how a human writes music.* Dunno about all that there "what it means to be human" bit. I'm a human, and I have no idea even what that question is supposed to mean. Too busy just being alive and doing all the things that go along with that state of affairs, I guess.
> 
> Anyway, that would be my answer, the works that represent humanity (I leave off the "best" part) are "all."


I see the flaw associated with my question. Apparently answering such a question truly is an impossible task. I suppose, as that other guy said, the better question would be to ask what represents humanism.


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## science

Declined said:


> I see the flaw associated with my question. Apparently answering such a question truly is an impossible task. I suppose, as that other guy said, the better question would be to ask what represents humanism.


Don't despair! There is probably no question you could ask without getting this kind of carping. What matters to me is that there has been some interesting discussion about music in this thread, so I'm glad you started it.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Let's put the question this way - arguments for or against Beethoven's 9th? 
Arguments for: 
1) large scope, large variety of emotions in the piece
2) the varied dynamics reflects the varied historical periods and situations
3) repeated motifs suggest that history repeats itself

Arguments against:
1) ending seems to imply that 'everything will always be good in the end', however, we don't know what will happen to humanity
2) Schiller's poem harks strongly to classical depictions (Elysium, etc.) although Beethoven was a Romantic, i.e. 'should' be 'against' this type of prevalence of classical symbolism.
3) Ending too 'bombastic' and drawn out?


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## tdc

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Let's put the question this way - arguments for or against Beethoven's 9th?
> Arguments for:
> 1) large scope, large variety of emotions in the piece
> 2) the varied dynamics reflects the varied historical periods and situations
> 3) repeated motifs suggest that history repeats itself
> 
> Arguments against:
> 1) ending seems to imply that 'everything will always be good in the end', however, we don't know what will happen to humanity
> 2) Schiller's poem harks strongly to classical depictions (Elysium, etc.) although Beethoven was a Romantic, i.e. 'should' be 'against' this type of prevalence of classical symbolism.
> 3) Ending too 'bombastic' and drawn out?


I think another reason people equate Beethoven with humanity is the sense of struggle that seems apparent both in a lot of his actual music, and also seemingly in his compositional process. He just seemed to be the kind of guy the average person can relate to in certain ways, and wants to cheer for.


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## trazom

tdc said:


> I think another reason people equate Beethoven with humanity is the sense of struggle that seems apparent both in a lot of his actual music, and also seemingly in his compositional process. He just seemed to be the kind of guy the average person can relate to in certain ways, and wants to cheer for.


Maybe, but this only explains why it covers the 'average Joe' not all of humanity, and why I find the idea of one piece representing everyone a bit suffocating. For example, who in their right mind would WANT to be lumped in with average middle class suburban American? The kind that cuts other people off in traffic but it's okay because "I'm the parent of an honors student" or "Baby On Board," or they hog entire sidewalks with double sized strollers because "Get OUT of my WAY I HAVE children and I have to get to Starbucks." And finally, and unfortunately the most common type, the kind that preach loving and forgiveness all the while looking down their nose at anyone who isn't white, Christian and heterosexual and crying they're being persecuted when they don't get to boss others around.

Ugh. No thanks.

Beethoven, as relatively misanthropic as he was in his later years, would surely sympathize with my position.


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## Bogdan

I'll go with Ravel's "L'heure espagnole".


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## tdc

trazom said:


> Maybe, but this only explains why it covers the 'average Joe' not all of humanity, and why I find the idea of one piece representing everyone a bit suffocating.


Yes, I agree and I think the poster I was responding to also agrees that one piece to represent humanity does not work.


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## DiesIraeCX

trazom said:


> Maybe, but this only explains why it covers the 'average Joe' not all of humanity, and why I find the idea of one piece representing everyone a bit suffocating. For example, who in their right mind would WANT to be lumped in with average middle class suburban American? The kind that cuts other people off in traffic but it's okay because "I'm the parent of an honors student" or "Baby On Board," or they hog entire sidewalks with double sized strollers because "Get OUT of my WAY I HAVE children and I have to get to Starbucks." And finally, and unfortunately the most common type, the kind that preach loving and forgiveness all the while looking down their nose at anyone who isn't white, Christian and heterosexual and crying they're being persecuted when they don't get to boss others around.
> 
> Ugh. No thanks.
> 
> Beethoven, as relatively misanthropic as he was in his later years, would surely sympathize with my position.


Musically speaking, a single piece covering all of humanity is, as you say, impossible and suffocating.

Not sure about the rest of your rant, though. lol

Either way, if I had to choose a single piece, Beethoven's 9th would be my choice because its appropriation and misappropriation by political regimes, organizations, festivals, etc. It literally has "represented" humanity at its worst and at its best. Regardless of its message in the Final movement. The "Ode to Joy" is neither here nor there. I don't think there is a symphony that has had more tangible importance, consequences and actual history behind it. If there is, I don't think I've heard of it.

Once again, I reiterate, musically speaking, there isn't a single work that should represent humanity. It's suffocating, one is bound to fail in trying to find a piece that can adequately represent _all_ of humanity. It's impossible.


----------



## samurai

I truly think it is well nigh impossible--for either any human or computer algorithm--to "definitively" and satisfactorily distill this question down to one work, let alone hundreds. As Science says though, an interesting post/premise nevertheless.


----------



## PetrB

Declined said:


> I see the flaw associated with my question. Apparently answering such a question truly is an impossible task. I suppose, as that other guy said, the better question would be to ask what represents humanism.


As usual, narrowing down the topic / subject usually helps enormously


----------



## PetrB

trazom said:


> Maybe, but this only explains why it covers the 'average Joe' not all of humanity, and why I find the idea of one piece representing everyone a bit suffocating. For example, who in their right mind would WANT to be lumped in with average middle class suburban American? The kind that cuts other people off in traffic but it's okay because "I'm the parent of an honors student" or "Baby On Board," or they hog entire sidewalks with double sized strollers because "Get OUT of my WAY I HAVE children and I have to get to Starbucks." And finally, and unfortunately the most common type, the kind that preach loving and forgiveness all the while looking down their nose at anyone who isn't white, Christian and heterosexual and crying they're being persecuted when they don't get to boss others around.
> 
> Ugh. No thanks.
> 
> Beethoven, as relatively misanthropic as he was in his later years, would surely sympathize with my position.


With Beethoven as a notoriously known hot mess of a social near-complete outsider, I have a hunch there were very personal desires (not fulfilled in his life) which impelled him to choose that Schiller text in the first place.

If the premise were true, he might then be able to believe he could even get a girlfriend or spouse (who would be able to put up with him, natch.) Social outsider / loner's fantasy wish, manifested in a pretty corny poem and embedded in a whack-a-doodle tacked on movement of a highly eccentric and near certifiably anti-social genius composer's symphony somehow does not resonate as 'representing all of humanity' to me


----------



## senza sordino

Didn't Mahler say that a symphony should encompass the world? This is hubris personified; a textbook definition of hubris But I applaud his efforts for trying.


----------



## KenOC

trazom said:


> ...who in their right mind would WANT to be lumped in with average middle class suburban American? The kind that cuts other people off in traffic but it's okay because "I'm the parent of an honors student" or "Baby On Board," or they hog entire sidewalks with double sized strollers because "Get OUT of my WAY I HAVE children and I have to get to Starbucks." And finally, and unfortunately the most common type, the kind that preach loving and forgiveness all the while looking down their nose at anyone who isn't white, Christian and heterosexual and crying they're being persecuted when they don't get to boss others around.


Uncle Ludwig loves all those people. And he loves you too! Well, in theory maybe. Like a good Marxist, he loves the masses but people, maybe, not so much.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

PetrB said:


> As a social near-complete outsider, I have a hunch there were very personal desires (not fulfilled in his life) as to why Beethoven chose that Schiller text in the first place.
> 
> If the premise were true, he might then be able to believe he could even get a girlfriend or spouse (who would be able to put up with him, natch.) Social outsider / loner's fantasy wish, manifested in a pretty corny poem and embedded in a whack-a-doodle tacked on movement of a highly eccentric and near certifiably anti-social genius composer's symphony somehow does not resonate as 'representing all of humanity' to me


In the Blu-ray/DVD of Christian Thielemann's Beethoven cycle (Symphonies 7-9), each symphony is afforded its own hour-long documentary-esque video where the conductor (Thielemann) and Germany's "most eminent music critic", Joachim Kaiser discuss the respective symphonies. For the 9th, there is a segment where they are discussing what you are talking about. None of it really seems to makes sense, ideologically or musically for that matter! The choice of Schiller's poem is rather puzzling, indeed, given Beethoven's temperament. It does seem that he was maybe overcompensating a bit!

I should point out that nowhere in their conversation is it hinted at that the Finale is a "corny poem embedded in a whack-a-doodle tacked on movement". Strange, I must have accidentally fast-forwarded that part.  But then again, they go into it _a bit_ more in-depth, with regards to interpretation and the music... Ok, fine, I admit the poem's a bit corny! lol ;-)

Also, I chose Beethoven's 9th not because of the actual music or poetry, but because it literally and tangibly has represented humanity. *I would not for a second choose the 9th to represent humanity with regards to the message given in the Finale*.

[HR][/HR]

*I'll transcribe the pertinent conversation between them, it's towards the end when discussing the final movement*:

*Kaiser*: It's not normal, even for Beethoven, that it ends with lyrics. Mus has its own language and it has more possibilities than mere words. That's the great significance of Beethoven's classicism and the beautiful slow movement in the sonatas, string quartets and symphonies. And then Beethoven says: "_Now it's so much about joy that I can't express this with music. Now I'm choosing words._" ... it's not self-evident that he didn't trust his music to deliver this total joy and that he needed Schiller for it!

*Thielemann*: He was probably thinking in a dramaturgical, almost scenic way. From "Fidelio" and other works we know, he had great difficulties with opera and the stage. But for me, this is a theatrical coup. Beethoven was a master of these.

*Kaiser*: All pure emotions are relatively difficult to produce. Not many people can do the interesting or the mixed well but it's possible. The pure emotion of happiness or pure emotion of love, of the pure emotion of absolute pain, these are difficult to produce. Beethoven sensed that. You can't accuse him of shying away from the theme of 'joy' for 30 years. But to devote an entire symphony to it, that surely didn't come easily to him.

Beethoven was a deaf, deeply unhappy, financially-troubled and miserable man. And then he wrote "To Joy!". He was surely overcompensating! The hysteria has to come out and you have to be able to hear it!

*Thielemann*: There's the danger of the dynamic passages in the score remaining fortissimo for a long time. You have to consider whether you want to take it totally seriously and push it to its limits or if you want to leave room for more. Sometimes we leave room for more.

*Kaiser*: There's another quite dangerous passage at the end: "_All men become brothers where your gentle wing tarries._" This gentle wing causes problems mainly for the vocal soloists because they have to sing very high, especially the soprano. She not only has to sing a very high B flat but also has to become quieter. If you're allowed to shout a high note, most times you'll hit it. But when you start in forte and then pull back to piano and have to do the whole thing delicately without wavering then Beethoven is mercilessly putting his singer through an ordeal.

*Thielemann*: He doesn't make people singe high notes without a reason. He wanted those emotions and for this used the most extreme means. Here he shows us: "It's absolutely clear how I want this to be. I want the extreme even if that means I have to force it". And he forces it.

*Kaiser*: Beethoven crescendos to a prestissimo ending which, musically, I don't understand.

*Thielemann*: You know what? We're not supposed to understand it. Some things shouldn't be understood. That makes it... He composed an organised chaos. There's a bridging passage that's awkward for the conductor, as is the whole ending in which the slow part returns. It's like a record being ripped off the player. The tempo suddenly changes. The sense of the final movement being special, and the feeling that it's as exceptional as the other movements is caused by a certain "unperformability". A few musicians from the orchestra, as well as Mr. Kuchl, the concert master, told me: "_This last movement is virtually unplayable._".

*Kaiser*: People are generally of the opinion that Beethoven wrote unplayable pieces because he lost his hearing. But Goethe was right in saying Beethoven's loss of hearing troubled him less in his music than in his social interactions. That's wise. He heard the music from inside, he didn't need ears for that.

*Thielemann*: People doubt this because it's unsettling. We want an explanation. We want to hear: he was deaf, he couldn't compose any more, he made mistakes. Of course you sense the power and rebellion. This enormous power stimulates me and fires me up again and again every time I interpret the music. In this movement he reveals a determination to never give up. He is deaf and ill. It also goes through my head here that he didn't give up.


----------



## Ian Moore

> What music represents humanity


All of music represents humanity! Made by humans for humans.


----------



## ArtMusic

some guy said:


> Since it's impossible, I would decline.


It's not impossible. Very easy as a matter of fact.

Baroque: Mass in B minor by Bach
Classical: Haydn "The Creation"
Romantic: Beethoven's 9th symphony

Three is all it takes.


----------



## PetrB

senza sordino said:


> Didn't Mahler say that a symphony should encompass the world? This is hubris personified; a textbook definition of hubris But I applaud his efforts for trying.


Thinking it is easy to name one, maybe two or three ^^^ symphonic works to represent all of mankind is nearer to approaching hubris, imho ;-)

No god or gods from the entire panoply over all time were attributed with composing symphonies as their exclusive / eminent domain. Ergo, I don't think Mahler's aspiration for a symphony is at all hubris in the textbook definition!


----------



## SONNET CLV

Skilmarilion said:


> The problem with 4'33", is that _any_ human could have produced it. Like much conceptual art, it's artistic worth is diminished because of this imo.


Conversely, if _any _human could have produced it, that makes the work _quite inclusively representative _of "humanity". No?


----------



## Skilmarilion

SONNET CLV said:


> Conversely, if _any _human could have produced it, that makes the work _quite inclusively representative _of "humanity". No?


Okay, but then there would be nothing unique about 4'33" in such a context.


----------



## SONNET CLV

SONNET CLV said:


> Though I almost hate to bring it up one more time on this board, I must nominate John Cage's 4'33'", as it remains a fully inclusive work of musical art in ways nothing else achieves.
> 
> Since humanity is far reaching and diverse in definition, no single culturally ethnic or period piece does the job of representing the fullness that is humanity. What Cage presents is a philosophical end-point of_ all _music. I'm sure that even intelligent aliens who have no hearing mechanism can appreciate the profundity at the basis of this piece. Only a thoughtful human could have produced it. Too, it can offend no one group of musical elites, nor inspire them to even more egocentricity.
> 
> In its strange little way, 4'33" achieves a perfection of representing human achievement in musical art. No small task.





Skilmarilion said:


> The problem with 4'33", is that _any_ human could have produced it. Like much conceptual art, it's artistic worth is diminished because of this imo.





SONNET CLV said:


> Conversely, if _any _human could have produced it, that makes the work _quite inclusively representative _of "humanity". No?





Skilmarilion said:


> Okay, but then there would be nothing unique about 4'33" in such a context.


Is "uniqueness" necessarily a measure for a representative sample? Plato, Newton, Mozart, and Einstein were unique as humans, but are they the _best_ representative of humanity? (And I qualify my use of the adjective "best" here so that it not be misread as meaning "most exemplary example of".)

Humanity is found in hovels and back alleys, as well as in castles and grand estates. To fully represent humanity (which itself begs a plural understanding) no one single person does the job any better than any other single person, be he a criminal or a saint.

In said context, any community's folk song remains as valid a representative of humanity as anything by Beethoven, Bach, Cage, or Pink Floyd. If children are indeed part of humanity, then the sing-song chant of a child remains a valid entry, too. As well as the hummings of an old fool. Humanity is quite inclusive.

I would venture the argument, too, that not anyone could have created the 4"33 in the same sense that not anyone could have created the Mahler _Resurrection Symphony _or the Bach B minor Mass or the Beethoven Ninth.... Today, nearly anyone can write any of the aforementioned works. Surely any of the major conductors of these pieces could take a blank sheet of score paper and recreate the work.

It is always the initial invention (creation) that proves the startling thing.

I've heard folks claim, upon viewing splatter art by Jackson Pollock or minimalist white paintings by Kazimir Malevich that "I can do that! My kid could do that! Heck ... my pet duck with paint brushes tied to its feet could do that!" And I would agree, stating further that I can paint the _Mona Lisa _... or anything by Rembrandt, Raphael, or Renoir. Heck ... such is done daily by art students all over the world. What's the problem? Once something is known, once it has already been done, _anyone_ can then do it.

One wonders, though, why no one _before_ Cage created the 4"33", or _before_ DaVinci created the perspectivized realism of the _Mona Lisa_.

To my former students who would venture the "I can do that" argument on the topic of art, I would present the following assignment: "I'll grant that you can do that. But here's what I want you to do. I want you to create the next great thing, that which has not been created before and which will shift the art world in a new direction, expanding the vocabulary and the definition of art itself. That's your assignment."

Too, I would assure them, that _after_ they produced that work of art, whatever it might be, that_ I_ would be able to do it, too.

In fact, I would assure them, my problem is not that I cannot paint the _Mona Lisa _or _White on White_, but that I just don't know what that _new defining work of art _will be. I lacked the genius necessary to know what DaVinci, Renoir, Malevich, or Pollock knew. Or could do.

To have created the perspective of features visible on _Mona Lisa _at the time it was done took a special insight, a unique human feature we identify as genius. At the time Malevich created _White on White_, he was alone in his vision. As was Beethoven at the time he wrote the _Hammerklavier Sonata_, or Chopin when he penned the Etudes, or Cage when he wrote 4"33". We may not always appreciate unique visions of genius, but they remain startling works of specific human imaginations at the time of their creations.

Yet, such works may also be the least representative of humanity, for that same reason, that they are so exclusive to a single personality and insight and vision.

The bottom line remains, that the premise of this thread is absurd, which is what my initial response about Cage (and the tag about Pink Floyd) was meant to indicate.

Still ... it's refreshing every once in a while to review one's philosophical positions concerning art, even if one must be provoked to do so by way of an essentially absurd proposal.


----------



## hpowders

The OP assumes "humanity" can be easily defined as a homogenous single entity.

NOT!!!

Therefore attempting to label "humanity" with a musical composition is a fruitless exercise in futility.


----------



## Blake

hpowders said:


> The OP assumes "humanity" can be easily defined as a homogenous single entity.
> 
> NOT!!!


You can make a case for homogeny. We are one species with ultimate goals. Happiness, fulfillment, desires for pleasure, avoidance of pain.


----------



## hpowders

Vesuvius said:


> You can make a case for homogeny. We are one species with ultimate goals. Happiness, fulfillment, desires for pleasure, avoidance of pain.


Those may be your goals. I may be a masochist, seek pain and desire to be humiliated. There are quite a few.

Not everyone is Ward Cleaver.


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## Blake

hpowders said:


> Those may be your goals. I may be a masochist, seek pain and desire to be humiliated. There are quite a few.


I think those are just distortions from the primary goal to seek pleasure. And pleasure is a limited field to find some sort of steady happiness or fulfillment. It all originates from the same thing... there are an endless amount of distortions.


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## Stavrogin

Damn, I read this whole thread and, may I say it?

I was totally bored by all the "I know better"-type replies that argued about the OP question's flaws. "It's impossible... what is humanity?... let's not forget cultures vary a lot...": ok... sure.

On the other hand, I extremely appreciated those who actually picked a work. Thanks.

My pick is Giya Kancheli's Lament.


----------



## Polyphemus

I know what you mean.


----------



## Skilmarilion

SONNET CLV said:


> I would venture the argument, too, that not anyone could have created the 4"33 in the same sense that not anyone could have created the Mahler _Resurrection Symphony _or the Bach B minor Mass or the Beethoven Ninth....* Today, nearly anyone can write any of the aforementioned works. Surely any of the major conductors of these pieces could take a blank sheet of score paper and recreate the work.*


The first part of this paragraph -- fine. I actually appreciate what you're saying but just wildly disagree.

You lost on me on the second part.


----------



## hpowders

Stavrogin said:


> Damn, I read this whole thread and, may I say it?
> 
> I was totally bored by all the "I know better"-type replies that argued about the OP question's flaws. "It's impossible... what is humanity?... let's not forget cultures vary a lot...": ok... sure.
> 
> On the other hand, *I extremely appreciated those who actually picked a work.* Thanks.
> 
> My pick is Giya Kancheli's Lament.


Glad some people could accommodate you.


----------



## Guest

Interesting. I took h's post to be sarcastic. But as my cursor was hovering over the "Like" button, I noticed that the person being gently dissed had done more than hover already. Hmmm.

Anyway, I'll just point out to Stavrogin that the judgment of "impossible" was first broached in the OP itself. That is, the OP is where all the questioning of the OP's validity started.

So you're criticizing posts that agree with one of the premises of the OP.


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## hpowders

Well if some of you define "humanity's" common characteristic as a desire for freedom then go with Richard Russell Bennett's music for Victory at Sea.


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## Stavrogin

@some guy
I just felt that this thread was a good chance to suggest works which for whatever reason are perceived as having a universal scope (or whatever one believes "representing humanity" means), but this didn't happen because of a focus on (for me banal and trite) remarks over the impossibility to reach a shared definition of it.


----------



## Guest

Yes, and the other point--made by me, among others--is that trying to find things with universal scope is not only impossible but jejune in the extreme.

Besides, if you suggest a work that you think has universal scope, and someone else thinks that its scope is quite clearly limited--to a time, a culture, a level of experience--then that person is supposed to just shut up? Because if they don't, they're gonna be accused of being banal and trite?

That would be fine howdy-do, doncha think?

And not only jejune, but outside the realm of things possible to discuss. If "represents humanity" is a null set, then there's nothing for us to talk about except the impossibility of talking about something that's impossible to talk about. And that, being the only option, was the option that some few of us took. For the rest, first the null set was populated with supposedly universal works. Then others pointed out that the works so genannt were anything but universal. There's really not much more to say or do about this topic.


----------



## PetrB

Stavrogin said:


> @some guy
> I just felt that this thread was a good chance to suggest *works which for whatever reason are perceived as having a universal scope* (or whatever one believes "representing humanity" means), but this didn't happen because of a focus on (for me banal and trite) remarks over the impossibility to reach a shared definition of it.


"*works which for whatever reason are perceived as having a universal scope" is a really fine idea for an OP.*

Your idea, and I think you should do it; what contributions come in would likely be many, sincere, and far more interesting because of the more precise quality you name in the OP.

The wording of this OP, "Represent Mankind," is to many really pretentious in a near-comic way, reading / sounding like so much cliched hack journalism, or akin to every other beauty contestants' platitudinous wish 'for world peace.' The voiced doubt of the OP within the OP by the OP only further set my mind in that direction the moment I first read it... while of course I was putting on restraining clothing so I would not twitch too vehemently when I would run across the first suggestions of Beethoven Symphony No. 9, finale (which is hard-wired in many via conditioning / propaganda / programming].

(If you make your new OP, maybe you could request that people suggest anything _but_ that one piece!)


----------



## Stavrogin

some guy said:


> Yes, and the other point--made by me, among others--is that trying to find things with universal scope is not only impossible but jejune in the extreme.
> 
> Besides, if you suggest a work that you think has universal scope, and someone else thinks that its scope is quite clearly limited--to a time, a culture, a level of experience--then that person is supposed to just shut up? Because if they don't, they're gonna be accused of being banal and trite?
> 
> That would be fine howdy-do, doncha think?


No. That person can observe that his perception of the work is different. And we would have a nice discussion about that work.



> And not only jejune, but outside the realm of things possible to discuss. If "represents humanity" is a null set, then there's nothing for us to talk about except the impossibility of talking about something that's impossible to talk about. And that, being the only option, was the option that some few of us took. For the rest, first the null set was populated with supposedly universal works. Then others pointed out that the works so genannt were anything but universal. *There's really not much more to say or do about this topic*.


Well this would surely be the outcome of your reasoning, if you assume that "represents humanity" is a null set for everyone everywhere at every moment.


----------



## PetrB

hpowders said:


> Well if some of you define "humanity's" common characteristic as a desire for freedom then go with Richard Russell Bennett's music for Victory at Sea.


Or you could just choose a piece without its being colored by its title or contained sung text!


----------



## Stavrogin

PetrB said:


> "*works which for whatever reason are perceived as having a universal scope" is a really fine idea for an OP.*
> 
> Your idea, and I think you should do it; what contributions come in would likely be many, sincere, and far more interesting because of the more precise quality you name in the OP.
> 
> The wording of this OP, "Represent Mankind," is to many really pretentious in a near-comic way, reading / sounding like so much cliched hack journalism, or akin to every other beauty contestants' platitudinous wish 'for world peace.' The voiced doubt of the OP within the OP by the OP only further set my mind in that direction the moment I first read it... while of course I was putting on restraining clothing so I would not twitch too vehemently when I would run across the first suggestions of Beethoven Symphony No. 9, finale (which is hard-wired in many via conditioning / propaganda / programming].
> 
> (If you make your new OP, maybe you could request that people suggest anything _but_ that one piece!)


I am afraid that if I made that thread, some posters would take over it with their remarks about the impossibility to define "universal scope", and not much room for actual music suggestions would be left


----------



## hpowders

PetrB said:


> Or you could just choose a piece without its being colored by its title or contained sung text!


Sure. Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony. It's got it all!!


----------



## Blake

The only way to go about this is either all pieces are representative, or none of them are. Because if we are going to pick and choose, then we've narrowed it down to the individual's relative perception based on their unique socio-cultural conditioning... there we will never find universal representations. 

But if we can say that we are all one species, and every piece is a partial representation of our potential as a whole... that might be reasonable.


----------



## SONNET CLV

> Quote Originally Posted by SONNET CLV View Post
> 
> I would venture the argument, too, that not anyone could have created the 4"33 in the same sense that not anyone could have created the Mahler Resurrection Symphony or the Bach B minor Mass or the Beethoven Ninth.... Today, nearly anyone can write any of the aforementioned works. Surely any of the major conductors of these pieces could take a blank sheet of score paper and recreate the work.





Skilmarilion said:


> The first part of this paragraph -- fine. I actually appreciate what you're saying but just wildly disagree.
> 
> You lost on me on the second part.


... just that to duplicate that which has already been created is not such a challenge. The original work is always the tough job; recreating it (repainting the Mona Lisa, writing down Keats' "Grecian Urn" poem, or writing on score paper the opening movement of Beethoven's Fifth) proves simplistic.

Think in terms of original orchestration. What contemporary film composers have to work with is a lot of earlier composers' original ideas. One seldom hears "original" film orchestration. We say: that sounds like Holst, or that sounds like Rachmaninoff, or that sounds like Wagner .... What is original orchestration? That's a tough one to answer, but great composers come along and offer it up -- a sound unique to them. Today, any third year composition student can duplicate the sound of Brahms, or Shostakovich, or Beethoven .... Such things are taught in music schools, exercises are given to arrange tunes in the styles of great composers (orchestrators). But how does one get his own sound? That is the question. Most of the music school students who pass the course in orchestration will never achieve their own distinctive sound, that sound which allows us to say "Hey! That's Mendelssohn." Or, "That is definitely Martinu."

Which is one reason great composers are great. They provide a distinctive "sound" that afterwards becomes rather commonplace (Schumann clones, Strauss clones, Schoenberg clones....)

Hope that clarifies.


----------



## hpowders

Which piece represents humanity in its current state? Mephisto Waltz by Liszt.


----------



## SONNET CLV

hpowders said:


> Which piece represents humanity in its current state? Mephisto Waltz by Liszt.


Metaphorically ... Schubert's _Unfinished Symphony_. (For hopefully humanity hasn't come to its end yet, even if it resembles the Mephisto Waltz at times.)


----------



## science

Stavrogin said:


> My pick is Giya Kancheli's Lament.


Wow, that is interesting! I like that piece. Why is it your pick? (If you have much to say about it, you might go over to the "in praise of 20th century music" thread and fill us all in!)


----------



## Stavrogin

science said:


> Wow, that is interesting! I like that piece. Why is it your pick? (If you have much to say about it, you might go over to the "in praise of 20th century music" thread and fill us all in!)


I totally perceive it as a musical experience of purification. Of course the fact that it's a mourning in death of a friend matters.
The pianissimo violin phrases, simple and intense, are like meditations over memories. Then, the bursts of the orchestra, like a sudden materialization of God's presence, or maybe of the world's presence. Or maybe both - it's Kancheli's signature poetics of ends that meet: rationality and irrationality, simplicity and enigma, intimacy and universality. In the latter sense, it's a prayer but also a creed.
And since, imo, there is nothing more universal through humanity than its relation with supernatural, hence my pick.


----------



## ArtMusic

ArtMusic said:


> It's not impossible. Very easy as a matter of fact.
> 
> Baroque: Mass in B minor by Bach
> Classical: Haydn "The Creation"
> Romantic: Beethoven's 9th symphony
> 
> Three is all it takes.


The Golden Disk on The Voyager literally has Bach's Brandenburg #2 to represent humanity.


----------



## PetrB

ArtMusic said:


> The Golden Disk on The Voyager literally has Bach's Brandenburg #2 to represent humanity.


Along with, side by side on that disc 'Representing Humanity' -- the following. Tsk, Tsk, you cherry picked and swept the rest under the carpet to falsely support your point... and, N.B. _No Beethoven's 9th Symphony._

» Bach, Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F. First Movement, Munich Bach Orchestra, Karl Richter, conductor. 4:40
» Java, court gamelan, "Kinds of Flowers," recorded by Robert Brown. 4:43
» Senegal, percussion, recorded by Charles Duvelle. 2:08
» Zaire, Pygmy girls' initiation song, recorded by Colin Turnbull. 0:56
» Australia, Aborigine songs, "Morning Star" and "Devil Bird," recorded by Sandra LeBrun Holmes. 1:26
» Mexico, "El Cascabel," performed by Lorenzo Barcelata and the Mariachi México. 3:14
» "Johnny B. Goode," written and performed by Chuck Berry. 2:38
» New Guinea, men's house song, recorded by Robert MacLennan. 1:20
» Japan, shakuhachi, "Tsuru No Sugomori" ("Crane's Nest,") performed by Goro Yamaguchi. 4:51
» Bach, "Gavotte en rondeaux" from the Partita No. 3 in E major for Violin, performed by Arthur Grumiaux. 2:55
» Mozart, The Magic Flute, Queen of the Night aria, no. 14. Edda Moser, soprano. Bavarian State Opera, Munich, Wolfgang Sawallisch, conductor. 2:55
» Georgian S.S.R., chorus, "Tchakrulo," collected by Radio Moscow. 2:18
» Peru, panpipes and drum, collected by Casa de la Cultura, Lima. 0:52
» "Melancholy Blues," performed by Louis Armstrong and his Hot Seven. 3:05
» Azerbaijan S.S.R., bagpipes, recorded by Radio Moscow. 2:30
» Stravinsky, Rite of Spring, Sacrificial Dance, Columbia Symphony Orchestra, Igor Stravinsky, conductor. 4:35
» Bach, The Well-Tempered Clavier, Book 2, Prelude and Fugue in C, No.1. Glenn Gould, piano. 4:48
» Beethoven, Fifth Symphony, First Movement, the Philharmonia Orchestra, Otto Klemperer, conductor. 7:20
» Bulgaria, "Izlel je Delyo Hagdutin," sung by Valya Balkanska. 4:59
» Navajo Indians, Night Chant, recorded by Willard Rhodes. 0:57
» Holborne, Paueans, Galliards, Almains and Other Short Aeirs, "The Fairie Round," performed by David Munrow and the Early Music Consort of London. 1:17
» Solomon Islands, panpipes, collected by the Solomon Islands Broadcasting Service. 1:12
» Peru, wedding song, recorded by John Cohen. 0:38
» China, ch'in, "Flowing Streams," performed by Kuan P'ing-hu. 7:37
» India, raga, "Jaat Kahan Ho," sung by Surshri Kesar Bai Kerkar. 3:30
» "Dark Was the Night," written and performed by Blind Willie Johnson. 3:15
» Beethoven, String Quartet No. 13 in B flat, Opus 130, Cavatina, performed by Budapest String Quartet. 6:37


----------



## MoonlightSonata

I wonder what Saint-Saens would think if he knew that the Rite of Spring was being used to represent humanity? :lol:


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Obviously Stravinsky is there in the 'The Golden Disk' to represent Russian pagan music. Everybody knows proper western classical music is only Germanic and the trinity of Mozart, Beethoven and Bach.


----------



## Guest

Proper Western Classical music is only French!!

Berlioz, Varese, Tetreault

(Let's fight!!)


----------



## PetrB

some guy said:


> Proper Western Classical music is only French!!
> 
> Berlioz, Varese, Tetreault
> 
> (Let's fight!!)


18 minutes' duration electro-acoustic piece, notated and ready to perform: two weeks from today. 
May the best man win.


----------



## hpowders

OP: I nominate Tartini's Devil's Trill Sonata for violin.


----------



## PetrB

hpowders said:


> OP: I nominate Tartini's Devil's Trill Sonata for violin.


But if that Voyager disc and the civilization who finds that golden record opens their mail and can get an idea from it of the Judeo-Christian notion of God & Devil, they may think of us as irretrievably backward or hopelessly quaint.

Bad idea, I think.


----------



## KenOC

PetrB said:


> But if that Voyager disc and the civilization who finds that golden record opens their mail and can get an idea from it of the Judeo-Christian notion of God & Devil, they may think of us as irretrievably backward or hopelessly quaint.
> 
> Bad idea, I think.


On finding the golden record: "Hey Zorkon, listen to this music."

"Yeah, that's nice, the way he keeps all those lines going. But it's kind of...peaceful, isn't it?"

"Yeah, not a bit warlike. Not so much as a cannon. Must be a pretty laid-back world, maybe no big weapons at all."

(Zorkon absently picks at a fang, grins) "Throgor, are you thinking what I'm thinking?"


----------



## PetrB

KenOC said:


> On finding the golden record: "Hey Zorkon, listen to this music."
> 
> "Yeah, that's nice, the way he keeps all those lines going. But it's kind of...peaceful, isn't it?"
> 
> "Yeah, not a bit warlike. Not so much as a cannon. Must be a pretty laid-back world, maybe no big weapons at all."
> 
> (Zorkon absently picks at a fang, grins) "Throgor, are you thinking what I'm thinking?"


Nice! --------------------


----------



## hpowders

OP: Whatever recording was playing on the Hindenburg just before it met its demise.

"Oh, the humanity!!!


----------



## PetrB

hpowders said:


> OP: Whatever recording was playing on the Hindenburg just before it met its demise.
> 
> "Oh, the humanity!!!


The Hindenburg featured a lounge pianist, who played a Blüthner baby grand especially built for the Zeppelin; the piano's body and harp frame were aluminum -- an alloy, actually -- (or for our English colleagues, aluminium.)

It was the first piano on an airship 

http://www.airships.net/blog/hindenburg-piano

a clip of the piano with audio





I know of this not because of my music/piano mania, but because I was fascinated with Zeppelins as a kid....


----------



## SONNET CLV

MoonlightSonata said:


> I wonder what Saint-Saens would think if he knew that the Rite of Spring was being used to represent humanity? :lol:


He already told us. It's called _The Carnival of the Animals_!


----------



## SONNET CLV

KenOC said:


> On finding the golden record: "Hey Zorkon, listen to this music."
> 
> "Yeah, that's nice, the way he keeps all those lines going. But it's kind of...peaceful, isn't it?"
> 
> "Yeah, not a bit warlike. Not so much as a cannon. Must be a pretty laid-back world, maybe no big weapons at all."
> 
> (Zorkon absently picks at a fang, grins) "Throgor, are you thinking what I'm thinking?"


Or ... as I envision the scene.

On finding the golden record: "Hey Zorkon, want a bite? This is one tasty pizza."

One species' Golden Disc ...






... is another species' Italian take-out?


----------



## hpowders

PetrB said:


> The Hindenburg featured a lounge pianist, who played a Blüthner baby grand especially built for the Zeppelin; the piano's body and harp frame were aluminum (or for our English colleagues, aluminium.)
> 
> It was the first piano on an airship
> 
> http://www.airships.net/blog/hindenburg-piano
> 
> a clip of the piano with audio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know of this not because of my music/piano mania, but because I was fascinated with Zeppelins as a kid....


I was fascinated with them too as a kid! They used to have animal crackers made in the shape of modes of transportation-sailboats, automobiles, etc; The zeppelin was my favorite shape. I wouldn't eat them until last....but eat them I did.


----------



## PetrB

hpowders said:


> I was fascinated with them too as a kid! They used to have animal crackers made in the shape of modes of transportation-sailboats, automobiles, etc; The zeppelin was my favorite shape. I wouldn't eat them until last....but eat them I did.


Did they give you gas? Were you hydrogen volatile until it passed? Need to know!


----------



## ArtMusic

ArtMusic said:


> The Golden Disk on The Voyager literally has Bach's Brandenburg #2 to represent humanity.


I would probably add to that a symphony by Mahler as well.


----------



## PetrB

ArtMusic said:


> I would probably add to that a symphony by Mahler as well.


I would add the (Indonesian) Ramayana Monkey Chant





Wonderment, wonderful, and _it rocks._


----------



## Blake

PetrB said:


> I would add the (Indonesian) Ramayana Monkey Chant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wonderment, wonderful, and _it rocks._


Ahah, you know where that came from... originally? I posted a tribal chant in another section not to long ago. It really is pretty awesome.


----------



## PetrB

Vesuvius said:


> Ahah, you know where that came from... originally? I posted a tribal chant in another section not to long ago. It really is pretty awesome.


This is beautiful, (Love the deeper-pitched metallophones) but I think the same text and ritual.

The jagged rhythms are the equivalent of a zig-zag path, according to the belief that demons are only capable of moving in straight lines, just as you see in the short bridges in Japanese Gardens, the zig-zag or non-straight line keeps demons confused; bad spirits can not follow you on those paths.


----------



## Blake

PetrB said:


> This is beautiful, (Love the deeper-pitched metallophones) but I think the same text and ritual.
> 
> *The jagged rhythms are the equivalent of a zig-zag path, according to the belief that demons are only capable of moving in straight lines, just as you see in the short bridges in Japanese Gardens, the zig-zag or non-straight line keeps demons confused; bad spirits can not follow you on those paths.*


That's quite interesting. I didn't know that part of it. Of course, they have a reason to do what they do, but it hit a primal mode in me that I didn't question much further.


----------



## PetrB

Vesuvius said:


> That's quite interesting. I didn't know that part of it. Of course, they have a reason to do what they do, but it hit a primal mode in me that I didn't question much further.


I've known this piece since the David Lewiston _Golden Rain_ Lp was first released (from which the music in my link.) That is one of the best field recordings of any 'ethnic' music I've ever heard. You can hear birds, some children, and the barking of the dogs of the village in the background from time to time and feel 'very much there,' in the village, with the celebrants. The rest of the album is some great and varied Gamelan music.

The chant is a fantastic sound, community made music, a tradition, a rite, and without knowing the story of the text (as I often claim is the way to first listen) almost all the major import (sans the details) is already clearly in the music, and I that, without knowing anything else, is readily heard within the first hearing!


----------



## Blake

PetrB said:


> I've known this piece since the David Lewiston _Golden Rain_ Lp was first released (from which the music in my link.) That is one of the best field recordings of any 'ethnic' music I've ever heard. You can hear birds, and the dogs of the village barking in the background from time to time, and feel 'very much there,' in the village, with the celebrants. The rest of the album is some great and varied Gamelan music.
> 
> The chant is a fantastic sound, community made music, a tradition, a rite, and without knowing the story of the text (as I often claim is the way to first listen) almost all the major import (sans the details) is already clearly in the music readily hear within a first hearing!


Many times just being open and really hearing what's going about is enough. It's similar to the discussion we've had before on this site. As in, someone heard you play Chopin... so, obviously you've had a tormented childhood. I put similar reference on tribal pieces. I know the story probably means a lot to them, but I don't carry such beliefs... therefore, what hits me is the direct experience of energies (sounds, visuals, etc...). The stories change, but the primal energies don't.


----------



## PetrB

Vesuvius said:


> Many times just being open and really hearing what's going about is enough. It's similar to the discussion we've had before on this site. As in, someone heard you play Chopin... so, obviously you've had a tormented childhood. I put similar reference on tribal pieces. I know the story probably means a lot to them, but I don't carry such beliefs... therefore, what hits me is the direct experience of energies (sounds, visuals, etc...). The stories change, but the primal energies don't.


Where there is a text, it was considered important. I will pay attention to it, but never on first listening. Here, as in any other sort of music, the music seemed to convey something both specific and compelling. As I've found many times before, if that is the case, the text is usually 'well set,' and then knowing it becomes 'important' or at least greatly enhances knowing more specifically 'what it is about.' It seems to work well enough for me, whether it is the _Ramayana Monkey Chant_, a Schubert Lied, or a Russian song.

As far as beliefs, as I get the import of the Ramayana Monkey chant without being a part of the culture or its religion, I get the import of a western piece based on a religious text without being familiar with the test or ever having been a subscriber.


----------



## Blake

PetrB said:


> Where there is a text, it was considered important. I will pay attention to it, but never on first listening. Here, as in any other sort of music, the music seemed to convey something both specific and compelling. As I've found many times before, if that is the case, the text is usually 'well set,' and then knowing it becomes 'important' or at least greatly enhances knowing more specifically 'what it is about.' It seems to work well enough for me, whether it is the _Ramayana Monkey Chant_, a Schubert Lied, or a Russian song.
> 
> As far as beliefs, as I get the import of the Ramayana Monkey chant not being a part of the culture's religion, I get the import of a western piece based on a religious text without ever having been a subscriber.


More often than not, the text is a wild limitation of the expression. As if the music itself wasn't enough of a restriction. I mean, where does it all really stem from? It seems to be a limitation from some vastly unknown space.


----------



## PetrB

Vesuvius said:


> More often than not, the text is a wild limitation of the expression. As if the music itself wasn't enough of a restriction. I mean, where does it all really stem from? It seems to be a limitation from some vastly unknown space.


There is a (western culture) premise about song and opera, i.e. the context of the text has some 'extreme' about it where normal recitation is not enough, and it calls out in the direction of needing to be sung. Usually this is to do with something 'intense' whether it be religion or strong drama, i.e. in that elevated sense of it, _Melodrama_ [Melos (Gr. melody) + Drama] the incantation like delivery of the principles and the sung or near sung 'chorus' of ancient Greek drama. (The premise, mistaken, for 'modern' western opera, BTW.)

I think the idea is pretty universal, maybe a very typical trait of people everywhere, when speech is simply not enough but the words are still wanted, it moves into the areas of musical chant or music.


----------



## Blake

PetrB said:


> There is a (western culture) premise about song and opera, i.e. the context of the text has some 'extreme' about it where normal recitation is not enough, and it calls out in the direction of needing to be sung. Usually this is to do with something 'intense' whether it be religion or strong drama, i.e. in that elevated sense of it, _Melodrama_ [Melos (Gr. melody) + Drama] the incantation like delivery of the principles and the sung or near sung 'chorus' of ancient Greek drama. (The premise, mistaken, for 'modern' western opera, BTW.)
> 
> *I think the idea is pretty universal, maybe a very typical trait of people everywhere, when speech is simply not enough but the words are still wanted, it moves into the areas of musical chant or music.*


For sure. I just find it focuses on a very limited sphere of experience. Nice to have, but many put so much weight to it. It's sort of like extensions from the primary source, and each extension is even further from the reality.

Origin > Music > Words. Everything from that origin is a limitation of that origin. And that originating source has become an abstraction to many of us. No one can really put a satisfying definition on it, which leads to many frustrations.


----------



## PetrB

Vesuvius said:


> For sure. I just find it focuses on a very limited sphere of experience. Nice to have, but many put so much weight to it. It's sort of like extensions from the primary source, and each extension is even further from the reality.
> 
> Origin > Music > Words. Everything from that origin is a limitation of that origin. And that originating source has become an abstraction to many of us. No one can really put a satisfying definition on it, which leads to many frustrations.


"Music begins where speech ends," that means no matter how articulate or well said, in discussing music, really nailing any or all of its qualities with language will always be woefully inadequate, severely pale in comparison to music itself.


----------



## Blake

PetrB said:


> "Music begins where speech ends," that means no matter how articulate or well said, in discussing music, really nailing any or all of its qualities with language will always be woefully inadequate, severely pale in comparison to music itself.


That quote implies that music is a product of speech. Like the crust of the bread. But I feel music is a more pure expression than words. It expresses movements before the gross realm of verbiage. Then, when we're not satisfied with such abstractions, we begin to talk. Could be just me, though.


----------



## PetrB

Vesuvius said:


> That quote implies that music is a product of speech. Like the crust of the bread. But I feel music is a more pure expression than words. It expresses movements before the gross realm of verbiage. Then, when we're not satisfied with such abstractions, we begin to talk. Could be just me, though.


Not at all. It more than implies that music is far above and beyond speech as a form of communication, able to express things the other medium completely fails to do whenever it even tries 'to go there.'

It also very much underlines that music is best left 'not literally trying to narrate,' i.e. say anything which _could instead_ be said with words.

I can't think of any other analogy, because music is, absolutely, the most abstract of all the arts, and, well, 'words fail.' LOL.


----------



## Guest

Before I jump in, did the OP clarify whether s/he meant 'humanity' as in 'mankind', or 'humanity' as in 'the quality of being humane'?


----------



## PetrB

MacLeod said:


> Before I jump in, did the OP clarify whether s/he meant 'humanity' as in 'mankind, or 'humanity' as in 'the quality of being humane'?


You know the drill by now, certainly, "Whatever you think it means."

Go for it


----------



## aleazk

MacLeod said:


> Before I jump in, did the OP clarify whether s/he meant 'humanity' as in 'mankind, or 'humanity' as in 'the quality of being humane'?


Western white civilization, of course. Is there any other people?


----------



## science

aleazk said:


> Western white civilization, of course. Is there any other people?


I've seen some but they were globalized. It appeared that _Gangnam Style_ represented them.


----------



## Guest

PetrB said:


> You know the drill by now, certainly, "Whatever you think it means."
> 
> Go for it


So, there is no music that could represent 'the quality of being humane'. As for 'mankind', any number of pieces _could _represent the different facets...

love, barbarity, isolation, energy, impulse, primitive, complex, technological, anger, humane... should I go on?

But, it's clear that this all depends, as usual, on several other matters. Is there such a thing as 'mankind' other than as a collective (and useless) noun to describe all persons living on the planet? If there is an argument about the need to reach a consensus ("Most people would say Beethoven's 9th") who are we including in the consensus? (see Aleazk's prescient post #143) And of course the old chestnut that music can represent anything the listener wants.


----------



## science

One answer is probably Stockhausen's _Stimmung_ because it invokes a representative array of deities.

And/or Husa's _Apotheosis of This Earth_ because it refers to the fate of all of us.

And/or Messiaen's _Turangalîla-Symphonie_ because it embodies the conflicts between physical and spiritual love that lead to so many of our tragedies and comedies.

I find this question easy to answer and interesting to think about.

But perhaps I'm not dissecting the word "piece" carefully enough. Is _Turangalîla-Symphonie_ really a piece? A piece of what? Perhaps it's a whole! Or "represents." What does it mean for any human production, let alone music, to "re"- "present" something else? "Pre?" Perhaps we'd better consider whether some art actually "re-postsents" something other than itself. And "classical"! Is _Stimmung_ really "classical?" After all, the classical era ended an entire century before old Karlheinz decided to play with overtones.

But do I really "find" this question easy to answer? Maybe I lose it easy to answer! Maybe I find it found it easy to question, and then lose it easy to question, and then find it easy to answer, and then lose it easy to answer. It might be a dialectical exploration of an inverted semantic space in which "works" of music alternative "work" and "un-work" the retrospective presentations, indeed the post/sentations of our posited common humanity: a neocolonial counter-conversion of social Darwinism if ever there was one.

Ok, I'm joking a little bit... 


But really, _Stimmung_, _Apotheosis of This Earth_, _Turangalîla-Symphonie_, Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, Takemitsu's _From Me Flows What You Call Time_, Crumb's _Black Angels_, Ligeti's _Le Grand Macabre_, Stravinsky's _Le Sacre du printemps_, Adams' _Giselle_...

They all represent humanity. Our task is if possible to understand, to explain to ourselves, why and how they do so. Perhaps to have a little bit of fun while we're at it.

It's like asking what flavor of ice cream Tchaikovsky would be, except less likely to get us all banned for saying rude things about [mod's name wisely redacted per standard CIA practice]'s favorite flavor.


----------



## science

BTW, just for full disclosure, I actually do come down on the side of agreeing that nothing can perfectly represent all of humanity, except perhaps the sum total of human deeds and experience, which of course could never be embodied in any single work of art of any kind. This seems obvious to me. 

Yet let us gab on and gab on merrily, for someone might say something intriguing about some particular work of music that increases my desire to hear it or my appreciation of it.


----------



## MJongo

Six Things to a Cycle by The Residents is the closest that I have heard. It encapsulates humankind: past, present, future, good and bad. And yes, I consider it a classical piece.


----------



## Blake

PetrB said:


> Not at all. It more than implies that music is far above and beyond speech as a form of communication, able to express things the other medium completely fails to do whenever it even tries 'to go there.'
> 
> It also very much underlines that music is best left 'not literally trying to narrate,' i.e. say anything which _could instead_ be said with words.
> 
> I can't think of any other analogy, because music is, absolutely, the most abstract of all the arts, and, well, 'words fail.' LOL.


Okay, I can dig that.


----------



## hpowders

Mahler Symphony #3, movement four: "O mensch!" solo for mezzo-soprano.


----------



## Xaltotun

_Der Ring des Nibelungen_, of course. Begins in water, ends in fire.


----------



## CypressWillow

After reading this entire thread, with lots of good/heavy suggestions, perhaps a bit of something to 'clear the palette' before we go on?

With tongue not so firmly in cheek, a sweet little ditty herewith:






Curiously refreshing, n'est ce pas?


----------



## Itullian

CypressWillow said:


> After reading this entire thread, with lots of good/heavy suggestions, perhaps a bit of something to 'clear the palette' before we go on?
> 
> With tongue not so firmly in cheek, a sweet little ditty herewith:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Curiously refreshing, n'est ce pas?


Oui. .............


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Itullian said:


> Oui. .............


At 0:31 I thought that the house was a house in Carmel, California.

_Oui_ indeed.


----------



## PetrB

Marschallin Blair said:


> At 0:31 I thought that the house was a house in Carmel, California.
> 
> _Oui_ indeed.


Lol. A $380K pergola -- that seems about right.


----------



## PetrB

This popular song from 1931 could represent "US" very well, I think:

_My Canary Has Circles Under His Eyes_


----------



## trazom

Now that I think about it, I believe the finale of Beethoven's 9th really does reflect much of humanity: The ideals in the text and conception, and reality in the actual sound.


----------



## PetrB

trazom said:


> Now that I think about it, I believe the finale of Beethoven's 9th really does reflect much of humanity: The ideals in the text and conception, and reality in the actual sound.


Hmmm. A panderingly catchy simple tune calculated to hook the general public, just like commercial pop tunes are calculatedly written, and a fairly naive but noble sentiment wrapped up in a shlocky poem for its lyric -- that, too, seems about right.

You know, that pretty much does reflect much of humanity


----------



## SimonNZ

PetrB said:


> I would add the (Indonesian) Ramayana Monkey Chant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wonderment, wonderful, and _it rocks._


Chiming in late to say that my god that is wonderful. I've got quite a few issues in the Nonesuch Explorer series, but have never encountered that one. I'll be ordering the cd shortly.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

PetrB said:


> Hmmm. A panderingly catchy simple tune calculated to hook the general public, just like commercial pop tunes are calculatedly written, and a fairly naive but noble sentiment wrapped up in a shlocky poem for its lyric -- that, too, seems about right.
> 
> You know, that pretty much does reflect much of humanity


Funnily enough, your many sentiments regarding the Finale perfectly _reflect_ the very naïveté that you attribute to the 9th Finale. Beautiful symmetry ain't it? ;-)

Edit: For the record, I believe the text is naive/simplistic in its own way. There's a reason why I don't read the English translation while listening. German works just fine! 

The music, however, is not. It's anything but merely catchy or simplistic.

For anyone else interested, read Christian Thielemann and Joachim Kaiser's thoughtful conversation verbatim on Beethoven's 9th Finale. It's critically analytical. Like I said, _thoughtful_. 
http://www.talkclassical.com/34246-what-classical-piece-represents-post730330.html#post730330


----------



## PetrB

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Funnily enough, your many sentiments regarding the Finale perfectly _reflect_ the very naïveté that you attribute to the 9th Finale. Beautiful symmetry ain't it? ;-)
> 
> Edit: For the record, I believe the text is naive/simplistic in its own way.
> 
> The music, however, is not. It's anything but merely catchy or simplistic.
> 
> For anyone else interested, read Christian Thielemann and Joachim Kaiser's thoughtful conversation verbatim on Beethoven's 9th Finale. It's critically analytical.


1.) The naïveté created by artists who are anything but can sometimes be a very successful expression, and as often not. I don't care about the wild complexity of the structure, thematic hockey game that the final movement is, but was addressing that synthetic naïveté, and that calculated hook of the one theme _just everyone knows...._

Because that, even for many a TC listener, seems to be _only_ what they know of that movement (or all that is recalled after having heard it); some declared classical fans who might say, the 'know Beethoven' have never listened to either the full piece or the entirety of that finale. Much of the world only knows the sentiment, the meaning of the text, and that 'hook' of a pop tune quality.

The movement itself is a wild and shaky ride, ala Beethoven, loved for doing what he does so well, including some of the clunkier aspects which make him so endearingly 'one of us' to so many. I still think it sounds complete tacked-on to the preceding three movements, and the symphony only 'sounds as a whole' to us because for generations, those who have listened all the way through have gotten used to it to a point where something so wildly misfitting its precedent context is considered logical and inevitable.


----------



## PetrB

SimonNZ said:


> Chiming in late to say that my god that is wonderful. I've got quite a few issues in the Nonesuch Explorer series, but have never encountered that one. I'll be ordering the cd shortly.


I agree with your "my god that is wonderful" -- that you found it so makes my having recommended it that much greater a pleasure.

It has of course an added benefit: 
if played at a pretty good full volume, it cleans your house very nicely indeed


----------



## Declined

It surprises me that this thread is still alive. Especially considering how difficult it is to represent humanity through music.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Declined said:


> It surprises me that this thread is still alive. Especially considering how difficult it is to represent humanity through music.


It's probably _because_ it's so difficult that this thread is still alive.


----------



## Guest

Not sure "difficult" is quite the right word here.

Is it difficult to catch a unicorn?

Is it difficult to paint a wall red using only blue paint?


----------



## science

Don Quixote has long been a hero to me.


----------



## hpowders

OP: Alberich's Curse from Wagner's Ring.


----------



## ultima

Mahler's Symphony No. 2. Everything that humanity can feel is somewhere in that piece - sadness, joy, anger, calm, yearning, redemption...


----------



## Guest

ultima said:


> Mahler's Symphony No. 2. Everything that humanity can feel is somewhere in that piece - sadness, joy, anger, calm, yearning, redemption...


I think that you will find that the same is true for Mahler's third. And fourth. And fifth and sixth and seventh and....

And Bruckner's ditto.

And Wellesz' ditto.

And Xenakis' Kraanerg and Persepolis and Pléïades. Among others.

And Oliveros' I of IV and Bizet's Carmen and Monteverdi's Vespers and Bach's b minor mass and Varese's Ecuatorial and Deserts.

Come to think of it, haven't I already made this point? Every piece of music has been composed by a human. Every piece of music represents some aspect of humanity.


----------



## Blake

some guy said:


> Come to think of it, haven't I already made this point? Every piece of music has been composed by a human. Every piece of music represents some aspect of humanity.


Thank you. I often wonder what we're trying to argue here. Do people have their own idea of what a human is? We listen to an African tribe beat their drums, or we listen to Bach's Brandenburg.... If they both aren't human expressions then what the hell are they?

Maybe we're carrying this fantasy that there is an artist who can give a complete score of every possible aspect of a human. I just don't find that to be reasonable. Because it's always going to be limited by that artist's experience and environment. It's going to be a piece of the whole.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Vesuvius said:


> Thank you. I often wonder what we're trying to argue here. Do people have their own idea of what a human is? We listen to an African tribe beat their drums, or we listen to Bach's Brandenburg.... If they both aren't human expressions then what the hell are they?
> 
> Maybe we're carrying this fantasy that there is an artist who can give a complete score of every possible aspect of a human. I just don't find that to be reasonable. Because it's always going to be limited by that artist's experience and environment. It's going to be a piece of the whole.


And let's have a round of applause!


----------



## tgtr0660

Humanity? Well, some awfully dissonant almost structure-less piece by some 20th century composer would definitely be the one.


----------



## Cosmos

I hadn't chimed in on this thread, mainly because it's been mentioned at the beginning that OP's probably looking for something along the lines of Beethoven's 9th.

It's my opinion that all music is representative of our humanity, and there is no single piece that can summarize the human experience


----------



## Mahlerian

tgtr0660 said:


> Humanity? Well, some awfully dissonant almost structure-less piece by some 20th century composer would definitely be the one.


Can you think of any of these? I'm having trouble.

Most of the 20th century music I know is quite well-structured and sounds fine rather than "awful".


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## hpowders

Cosmos said:


> I hadn't chimed in on this thread, mainly because it's been mentioned at the beginning that OP's probably looking for something along the lines of Beethoven's 9th.
> 
> It's my opinion that all music is representative of our humanity, and there is no single piece that can summarize the human experience


Well if you posted this as "Post #2", we could have all simply gone home.


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## GreenMamba

some guy said:


> Come to think of it, haven't I already made this point? Every piece of music has been composed by a human. Every piece of music represents some aspect of humanity.


Except ultima had said that Mahler's 2nd contains *everything* that humanity can feel, which is a different argument (and a very inaccurate one, IMO).


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## muzik

Tough question.

I see every piece of music ever written as a pixel of an infinitely large image with no edges.


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## hpowders

Pah------din?????


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## tgtr0660

Mahlerian said:


> Can you think of any of these? I'm having trouble.
> 
> Most of the 20th century music I know is quite well-structured and sounds fine rather than "awful".


I was really talking kind of sarcastically, trying to convey the meaning that I think humanity is so chaotic, dissonant and problematic that only a piece like that would represent it.

(note: also, I said "awfully dissonant", not "dissonance (or 20th century music) is awful"


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## MoonlightSonata

muzik said:


> Tough question.
> 
> I see every piece of music ever written as a pixel of an infinitely large image with no edges.


Then there would surely have to be an infinitely large number of pixels, or at least one infinitely large pixel.


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## Declined

some guy said:


> Every piece of music has been composed by a human. Every piece of music represents some aspect of humanity.


I think this is the answer to my question.


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## DiesIraeCX

Declined said:


> I think this is the answer to my question.


So, I guess those posters who assumed you would pick Beethoven's 9th just because you have a Beethoven avatar, were incorrect.


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## Declined

DiesIraeVIX said:


> So, I guess those posters who assumed you would pick Beethoven's 9th just because you have a Beethoven avatar, were incorrect.


It's one of many pieces that represent humanity. It's lyrics, speaking of the harmony of man, makes it much more explicitly representative of humanity than other works though. They're not wrong. Though I don't think it represents humanity any more than do, say, Mahler 2, or Tchaikovsky 6.


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## Ukko

I don't know what the confusion is about. Beethoven's 9th, Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra and _somebody's_ Amazing Grace represent 'the unreachable'. We are wallowing in the same mud now that we were wallowing in 13,000 years ago. Is there Auschwitz music? That would come closer to representing the reality.


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## Queequeg

Mozart Haffner Symphony


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## muzik

MoonlightSonata said:


> Then there would surely have to be an infinitely large number of pixels, or at least one infinitely large pixel.


I guess so. It would be interesting to know if we can actually quantify the number of music pieces ever written. Seems like an impossible task to me.


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## Wolfie

In my opinion Bach's B minor Mass is the greatest piece ever written.


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## MoonlightSonata

muzik said:


> I guess so. It would be interesting to know if we can actually quantify the number of music pieces ever written. Seems like an impossible task to me.


The answer to that question is very simple:
No.
Some of them are lost, some forgotten, and the sheer number doesn't help.


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## sharik

Declined said:


> If you had the impossible task of selecting a classical(in the broad sense) work to represent humanity, what would you select?


admittedly, Beethoven 9th was made to represent humanity, but 20th century events have put Wagner Der Ring forward as a more likely candidate.


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## edithdas

Mozart's Requiem


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## 20centrfuge

For me, to choose a piece that represents humanity means to choose a piece that has elements of greatness and fragility; also something that represents the best of what humankind has produced in terms of music. For me, a good choice would be *Sibelius Symphony 5*.

The third movement is the fragility and beauty while the piece as a whole is the greatness and goodness that humanity is capable of.

A second choice for me would probably be *Elgar's Enigma Variations*. The piece has a lot of variety but is held together by, in my view, the most beautiful theme ever composed. Besides which, poetically speaking, humanity is something of an enigma. So there's that.


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## hpowders

I would like the Benjamin Britten War Requiem to represent "humanity".

The horrors, inhumanity and futility of war composed by an ardent pacifist.

Will governments ever learn to stop the madness?


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## Blancrocher

I see humanity as more of an aleatoric piece.


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## Totenfeier

I just answered this question a bare two minutes ago in the Which Mahler Would You Save From God thread - Das Lied von de Erde. Western with a hint - a wisp - of artificial Asian flavoring?


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## Richard8655

I probably would have preferred asking what piece represents the world and all existence, including us. Humanity seems to make us the sole important subject that matters versus all life and living forms. In that light for me it would be Ives "The Unanswered Question".


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## Pugg

Blancrocher said:


> I see humanity as more of an aleatoric piece.


I second this :tiphat:


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## Harold in Columbia

hpowders said:


> I would like the Benjamin Britten War Requiem to represent "humanity".
> 
> The horrors, inhumanity and futility of war composed by an ardent pacifist.
> 
> Will governments ever learn to stop the madness?


War isn't necessarily futile. The War of the Spanish Succession, the Napoleonic Wars, and the Opium Wars paid off great for Britain. World Wars 1 & 2 paid off great for America - less so for Britain.

Of course, insofar as Britten's requiem demonstrates by example that the sons of mighty, ruthless empires turn into pious poseurs when their empire loses, it does indeed represent humanity.


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## znapschatz

At this time in world history, there can be no classical piece that represents all of humanity because there are so many different types of music arising from varied cultures, among which not many that are consonant with all others, maybe none. I once had a conversation about this very subject with Ali Akbar Kahn, at the time regarded as one of the great Indian musicians (sarod, tabla) on the topic of music across cultures. Although a master in his own musical tradition, he found almost the entire canon of western classical music all but incomprehensible, to him just tonality with a "military beat," but with an exception. J.S. Bach was the one European composer that he "got." 
There have been a lot of cross cultural contacts in the last couple of centuries that could change this, but we will have to wait a while longer before there is anything like a universal culture in music.


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## MarkW

I think we have to assume that even if an alien can decode the disk and translate it into audible music (presuming it can hear sound), it would be difficult-to-impossible for it to decode language (at least to the point of reading any kind of expressive subtleties into it). So vocal music is out except for the sake of giving it an example of what we sound like. We also have no idea of a potential alien's emotive equipment, so expecting it to hear or experience "joy" in the Ninth symphony, or pathos in the Cavatina of Opus 130 represents a hope on our part that we have no basis for (Imagine the reaction of HAL in "2001").

I would go with Beethoven's Opus 127 quartet because: (A) It is abstract music that (B) represents well the best of how structured Western music can be organized (sonata form, variations, scherzo and trio (binary)), but (C) with enough surprises and complexities to show that human music is more than just a rote exercise of pouring notes into molds. It would also be interesting know how much "information" an alien can decode from it (i.e. four voices, bowed and plucked strings, etc.).

(And I personally feel that Sagan's Golden Record, in its attempt to please everyone, would only completely confuse an alien listener.)


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## Harold in Columbia

znapschatz said:


> I once had a conversation about this very subject with Ali Akbar Kahn, at the time regarded as one of the great Indian musicians (sarod, tabla) on the topic of music across cultures. Although a master in his own musical tradition, he found almost the entire canon of western classical music all but incomprehensible, to him just tonality with a "military beat," but with an exception. J.S. Bach was the one European composer that he "got."


I bet he would have "got" Dufay, Ockeghem, Josquin, Palestrina, Lassus, and Monteverdi.

People whose world begins and ends with jazz or rock like Bach for the same reason - he's in some ways the most primitive composer in the standard practice canon. Especially since the Modernists got us all into the habit of making him sound like a sewing machine.



znapschatz said:


> There have been a lot of cross cultural contacts in the last couple of centuries that could change this, but we will have to wait a while longer before there is anything like a universal culture in music.


If there ever was, it wouldn't be a culture. Fortunately, it's probably impossible.


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## znapschatz

Harold in Columbia said:


> War isn't necessarily futile. The War of the Spanish Succession, the Napoleonic Wars, and the Opium Wars paid off great for Britain.


Not necessarily for Britain as a whole. "In the land of the conquered, the poor people starve. In the land of the conquerors, the poor people also starve."



> Of course, insofar as Britten's requiem demonstrates by example that the sons of mighty, ruthless empires turn into pious poseurs when their empire loses, it does indeed represent humanity.


True, that.


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## hpowders

I don't know of any classical piece so low as to accurately represent humanity.


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## PlaySalieri

I would select Die Zauberflote to represent all humanity (ie man the species on earth)

I understand that a CD was sent into space with various images and other stuff on it - and one piece of music - the queen of the nights aria 2nd act. Not the carl sagan one.


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## Fugue Meister

stomanek said:


> I would select Die Zauberflote to represent all humanity (ie man the species on earth)
> 
> I understand that a CD was sent into space with various images and other stuff on it - and one piece of music - the queen of the nights aria 2nd act. Not the carl sagan one.


There was more than one piece of music, some of Gould playing Bach's Well Tempered Clavier Book I went too.


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