# Tchaikovsky Showdown: Bernstein vs. Mravinsky!



## GrosseFugue

Hi all,

I've heard so much about the Mravinsky/Tchaikovsky set (4-6) 1960. But some years ago I got introduced to Bernstein's versions of 5 & 6 and I had no desire to hear Mravinsky after that. I couldn't believe anyone could match the OVERWHELMING emotional readings by Bernstein. In fact, I remember how one person said he felt like committing suicide after hearing Bernstein's Pathetique.  

So I'm dying to know what other TCers thoughts are about these two versions, which they prefer. 

PS -- Never understood why Bernstein's set is so rarely recommended, while Mravinsky's is consistently praised to the skies. I wonder if this is a case of "Kleiber Delusion"?  As in how Carlos Kleiber's Beethoven 5 & 7 CD is so over-hyped as to be a case of delusional madness, while true Beethoven greats like Furtwangler and Mengelberg go to the wayside.


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## joen_cph

But did your not hear Mravinsky ?  

As regards Bernstein, I haven´t heard his NYPO Tchaikovsky which comes from generally very good period of his (Nielsen´s 5th, for instance), but among the later DG Tchaikovsky ones, the 6th is indeed unusual (an incredibly slow and passioned Finale) and worth having ...


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## itywltmt

No contest - Mravinsky! Some will argue his sound is "too Soviet", but, OMG, have you heard his 4th? It is, bar none, the most ferocious ever recorded!

In Bernstein's defense, he did apprentice under Koussevitsky... I remember hearing him conduct the 5th on TV, and making references to Koussevitsky discussing the concept of "the principal line". His finale of the 5th was taken noticeably slower than anybody else's I've ever heard!

In my book, there's Mravinsky, then Muti-Abbado, then a "peloton" in third place with Bernstein, Karajan, Ormandy, Maazel, Rostropovich and many, many more.


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## moody

itywltmt said:


> No contest - Mravinsky! Some will argue his sound is "too Soviet", but, OMG, have you heard his 4th? It is, bar none, the most ferocious ever recorded!
> 
> In Bernstein's defense, he did apprentice under Koussevitsky... I remember hearing him conduct the 5th on TV, and making references to Koussevitsky discussing the concept of "the principal line". His finale of the 5th was taken noticeably slower than anybody else's I've ever heard!
> 
> In my book, there's Mravinsky, then Muti-Abbado, then a "peloton" in third place with Bernstein, Karajan, Ormandy, Maazel, Rostropovich and many, many more.


The Leningrad Orchestra is now the St.Petersburg Phil. I wonder what on earth itywitmt meant by "too Soviet".
You almost answered your own question, there are certain composers Tchaikovsky and Mahler are among them who have their own hysteria built into the music. Unfortunately Bernstein is the last man you want conducting this type of stuff, I am aware of the inflated reputation that he has in the USA but that has never really been the case in Europe .(Boy is this going to get the Lennie gang up in arms). His performances of Nielsen and Haydn are far better. 
What you need in the case of the "Pathetique" is the type of conductor who delivers what the composer wanted and not the "listen to me this is the Lennie version of what Tchaikovsky really wanted". Apart from that the Leningrad orchestra was magnificent at that time while I never did think that the New Yorkers played particularly well for Bernstein. My favourite versions , and I have a few, are Toscanini with the NBC orchestra, Carnegie Hall, 1947, Vaclav Talich and the Czech Phil. 1950, and Jascha Horrenstein with the London Symphony. 1967. Two of those are in mono so won't please a number of members. but if you want OTP and who does not from time to time, then who better than Stokowski with the LSO. 1973. By the way I wish that Bernstein had conducted like Koussevitzky.


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## itywltmt

moody said:


> The Leningrad Orchestra is now the St.Petersburg Phil. I wonder what on earth itywitmt meant by "too Soviet".


What I meant was that some will argue, now that the 50's and 60's are behind us, that Mravinsky's _sound _was very rigid in keeping with what "the regime" deemed acceptable at the time. Nonetheless, his set (recorded, BTW, in Western Europe on tour and not in the USSR) is still *the reference* for the last three Symphonies, IMHO.

To your point about the NBC Symphony, there is also a terrific set by that orchestra but with Guido Cantelli conducting. WIth the demise of the _Public Domain Classic_ archive, I posted that set on the _Internet Archive_ at the velow location:

http://www.archive.org/details/PeterIlijcTchaikovskyTheLastThreeSymphonies


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## christmashtn

My favorite 4rth -and a real gorgeous sleeper - Zubin Mehta / LA Phil.; the earlier 1967 recording on Decca (not the later 1970's one in the Mehta/Tchaikovsky CD box also on Decca.) Their 1967 performance was recorded at UCLA's Royce Hall, issued on LP in the USA on London Records CS-6553, and in the UK on Decca SXL-6323. On CD it has only been briefly available in Australia only, Australian Decca 473101-2 (a 2 CD set coupled with Mehta's earlier Israel Phil. performance of the 5th, and some early digital Swan Lake highlights with the LA. Phil.) The engineering is simply gorgeous. The music beautifully flows like no other 4rth I've heard. It is really worth seeking out, but don't beat your brains out trying to find a copy of the Australian CD set, for its now almost impossible to find. Second hand LP's are much easier to find on ebay. If the cover is a close up of a sweaty Zubin Mehta, that's not the 1967 performannce. You want the one with Zuby standing in front of the entire LA Phil. 

My favorite 5th has just vome out on DVD; Erich Leinsdorf - Boston Symphony Orchestra - Live performance, in color, April 15, 1969. HAIRRAISING!! Even puts the likes of Szell and Mravinsky to shame. Final two minutes can be seen on youtube. ICA CLASSICS ICAD 5059. DVD also contains Leinsdorf/BSO Beethoven Egmont Overture from the same concert, and the minuet from Mozart's Posthorn Serenade, circa 1963 black + white.

Favorite 6th Hands Down is Yevgeny Svetlanov's classic 1967 Melodiya with the USSR Symphony Orchestra (not their later digital one on Canyon Classics.) Non Russian LP issues have been on Melodiya/Angel in the USA, Melodiya/EMI in the UK, Melodiya/Pathe Marconi in France, and Meldoiya/Eurodisc in Germany. On non Russian CD issues, this has appeared on Mobile Fidelity, Vox Box (coupled with Svetlanov's 1967 5th), and Melodiya/RCA. All are now out of print, but some good deals on the Vox Box CD edition were recently spotted on amazon.

A final footnote: The new Leinsdorf/BSO DVD of the 5th simply must be experienced by all who know and love the symphony. It will be like discovering the 5th for the first time, with an electric vitality never previously experienced. It is without doubt, one of the most astonishing performances of anything I have ever seen, heard, or witnessed.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Jansons/Oslo Philharmonic for the Fourth
Szell/Cleveland Orchestra for the Fifth
Mravinsky/Leningrad Phiharmonic for the Sixth (the DG stereo version)


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## Heck148

I like them both - 

Mravinsky/LenPO, and Bernstein/NYPO...they are different, of course...
Bernstein's NYPO #4 from 1959 is terrific, maybe a little eccentric - but nothing compared with some of Stokowski's astounding distortions!!
Lenny's #5 from same period is very good also - He took it on the famous Russian tour of '59, along with Shostalovich #5. 

I'm not so fond of Bernstein's #6, I think Mravinsky gets the nod there, except that Reiner/CSO tops everyone...wonderful recording, one of Reiner/CSO's very best, which puts it way, way up there...


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## Pugg

Heck148 said:


> I like them both -
> 
> Mravinsky/LenPO, and Bernstein/NYPO...they are different, of course...
> Bernstein's NYPO #4 from 1959 is terrific, maybe a little eccentric - but nothing compared with some of Stokowski's astounding distortions!!
> Lenny's #5 from same period is very good also - He took it on the famous Russian tour of '59, along with Shostalovich #5.
> 
> I'm not so fond of Bernstein's #6, I think Mravinsky gets the nod there, except that Reiner/CSO tops everyone...wonderful recording, one of Reiner/CSO's very best, which puts it way, way up there...


I second this....................


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