# Richard Strauss



## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Nobody speaks about him....Is not the composer I prefer but I like many many things he composed, of course especially operas but also many nice orchestral works...I don't know if he composed chamber music...Did he?

For you to follow.

Martin


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

He composed some chamber music during his early period. I like it. But he had almost completely stopped by 1900.


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## TWhite (Feb 23, 2010)

Most of Strauss' chamber and solo piano works were written quite early in his career. The models seem to be Schumann and Brahms, but they are quite interesting, and in many cases definitely worth familiarizing onself with. His Cello Sonata is extremely good, as is his piano work "Moods and Fancies". And his youthful Piano Sonata has some wonderful things in it (I'd recommend the exceptional recording by Glenn Gould). 

I like Strauss a lot--and am not afraid to admit it. Especially the operas. 

Tom


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Why should you be afraid, Tom. I think they are great. My favourite: Die Frau ohne schaten (the woman without a shadow)....but also many others* except *Rosenkavalier and the silent woman...(I don't like both)

I love Elektra, Salome (Oscar Wilde), Arabella, Ariadne auf Naxos, Daphne, Helene from Egypt....Capriccio less...

Martin


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## TWhite (Feb 23, 2010)

Martin:

Odd your least favorite Strauss opera "Rosenkavalier" is actually my all-time favorite, LOL! But that's individual choice (and I'm old enough to have seen the perfect Marschallin, Elisabeth Schwartzkopf sing the role). Salome and Ariadne follow very quickly as my favorite #2-3 Strauss operas, and I'd give Capriccio a couple of chances. I wasn't extremely fond of it on first hearing, but I got curious, and after seeing Kiri TeKanawa perform it in San Francisco, I was totally smitten. It's becoming a favorite of mine, but you really have to kind of 'relax' yourself into it, I think. "Elektra" just knocks me out of the opera house, it's that powerful. For me, it's Strauss almost--and I say ALMOST--threatening to take a totally different road in his approach to composition. The only other German opera even near that type that affects me as much is Berg's WOZZEK. Frankly, I've always been rather surprised that Strauss backed off after "Elektra"--tonally, I mean--and gave us such other operatic treats. 

But as I said, I'm not afraid at all to say that he's one of my favorite composers. And the reason I say that, is that in a lot of professional musical circles (to which I belong, BTW), he's not exactly considered 'First Class'. Why, I don't know. He certainly has given me a lot of pleasure through the years. He once said of himself, "I may not be a First-Class composer, but I am a First-Class SECOND Class composer." Of course, that was his typical wit. He also said on conducting: "Never look at the brass section, it only encourages them." 

Like him a lot, I do.
Tom


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

TWhite said:


> Martin:
> 
> Odd your least favorite Strauss opera "Rosenkavalier" is actually my all-time favorite, LOL! But that's individual choice (and I'm old enough to have seen the perfect Marschallin, Elisabeth Schwartzkopf sing the role). Salome and Ariadne follow very quickly as my favorite #2-3 Strauss operas, and I'd give Capriccio a couple of chances. I wasn't extremely fond of it on first hearing, but I got curious, and after seeing Kiri TeKanawa perform it in San Francisco, I was totally smitten. It's becoming a favorite of mine, but you really have to kind of 'relax' yourself into it, I think. "Elektra" just knocks me out of the opera house, it's that powerful. For me, it's Strauss almost--and I say ALMOST--threatening to take a totally different road in his approach to composition. The only other German opera even near that type that affects me as much is Berg's WOZZEK. Frankly, I've always been rather surprised that Strauss backed off after "Elektra"--tonally, I mean--and gave us such other operatic treats.
> 
> ...


I think he might not be first class compared to Beethoven, Bach or Mozart if we go by both the quality and quantity of good music they have composed, but then again I don't see how the best of his contemporaries including Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Berg, Sibelius etc are any more first class than him if we go by that standard.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Strauss is one of my favorites - on some days I would even say my second most favorite composer behind Mozart. The operas, the tone poems, the lieder, I just love them.


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## TWhite (Feb 23, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> Strauss is one of my favorites - on some days I would even say my second most favorite composer behind Mozart. The operas, the tone poems, the lieder, I just love them.


His lieder is among my favorites of the type--as an accompanist, they're extremely satisfying to play. At first, they do not look on paper as if they'll lie well for the hand, but they do. He really knew what he wanted out of the piano as a partner in the songs.

He once said, "It's not how you START the melody, it's where you TAKE it." And he was certainly expert at that.

Wonderful, extremely satisfying to both play and hear, IMO.

Tom


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Lieder is always plural my friend Tom....LOL.

About this:



> I think he might not be first class compared to Beethoven, Bach or Mozart if we go by both the quality and quantity of good music they have composed, but then again I don't see how the best of his contemporaries including Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Berg, Sibelius etc are any more first class than him if we go by that standard.


This message is pollution...don't even read it, it is a waste of time...Beethoven...Who's Beethoven? Is he better than Richard Strauss?..In the 60's he was a God, even more than Mozart...A question of fashion...
YOU SHOULDN'T say this composer is better than................That is *YOUR* opinion. *Respect others if you want to be respected*, nobody invited you here...Go to a Beethoven's group!

I also love his leader...Of course the 4 last are wonderful but many more...
I don't llike the Rosenkavalier because it is a "too classic" opera. I like Elektra and Salome...because they are wild! R.Strauss has two profiles:

No Wagnerian (Salome, Elektra)
Wagnerian (all others...Die Frau ohne Schatten is very Wagnerian) I love Wagner.

He also compared himself with Wagner.
Martin


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## TWhite (Feb 23, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Lieder is always plural my friend Tom....LOL.
> 
> About this:
> 
> ...


Martin:

Right. Lieder always needs to be performed in 'chunks' for both the singer, pianist and audience, because a single 'lied' is way too brief to get the point of the composer across, at least IMO.

You're right, "Rosenkavalier" is quite 'classic', it's almost a throwback to Mozart (who was another of Strauss' inspirations), in fact, once I had about eight hours to kill on a weekend and I was in a very 'operatic' mood, and I played Mozart's "Le Nozze di Figaro" and "Rosenkavalier" back to back (WHEW!) and I was pleasantly surprised at how beautifully--despite the difference in compositional technique--they actually 'dovetailed' from one to the other. I needed about two or three minutes to transform my ears from the 18th to the 20th Century, but the transition was much easier than I thought it would be (despite the 'waltzes'--a very 19th Century phenomonon in the 18th Century setting of "Rosenkavalier").

Odd that you would consider "Salome" and "Elektra" non-Wagnerian, though. To my ears, at least, they are VERY Wagnerian in the use of voice and orchestra. Okay, the 'tonality' isn't neccessarily Wagnerian--far more 'chromatic', and at times almost non-tonal--but the emotion and impetus strikes me as Strauss taking the Wagnerian concept even further. And like you, I like Wagner a lot. Especially "Parsifal" and "Meistersinger". But I definitely agree with you on "Frau ohne Schatten"--that particular opera just might be the most 'Wagnerian' of Strauss' operas in tone, color and concept. It's just remarkable.

Getting away from the operas for a moment--his big work for piano and orchestra: "Burleske" might need a few hearings, if you're not familiar with it, but it's one of those pieces that just seems to get better and better the more you listen to it. Byron Janis, Marta Argerritch and Rudolph Serkin have done terrific recordings of it. If you haven't heard it, give it a try. There's some awfully good stuff in it.

Tom


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> This message is pollution...don't even read it, it is a waste of time...Beethoven...Who's Beethoven? Is he better than Richard Strauss?..In the 60's he was a God, even more than Mozart...A question of fashion...
> YOU SHOULDN'T say this composer is better than................That is *YOUR* opinion. *Respect others if you want to be respected*, nobody invited you here...Go to a Beethoven's group!


Well, sorry if I have offended you but I am just trying to explain why Strauss might have considered himself a "first class second class" composer. Certainly he has composed great masterpieces that are no less great than what Bach/Mozart/Beethoven had composed, but to many you need to do more than that to be considered "first class". What made Bach/Mozart/Beethoven/etc great wasn't just the quality but also quantity of good music they have composed, and in many ways Strauss's output in the later years of his life is not on the same level as those in his earlier years, not a surprise considering that he had to composed those in world war II. Also, to many you need to have revolutionized music in some way, push it to some new level to be considered first class. In that aspect Strauss is considered to be more conservative than many of his more darling peers. In case you haven't realized, I am one of those people who do consider Strauss to be first class, so I don't agree with the standards of those people.



TWhite said:


> Odd that you would consider "Salome" and "Elektra" non-Wagnerian, though. To my ears, at least, they are VERY Wagnerian in the use of voice and orchestra. Okay, the 'tonality' isn't neccessarily Wagnerian--far more 'chromatic', and at times almost non-tonal--but the emotion and impetus strikes me as Strauss taking the Wagnerian concept even further. And like you, I like Wagner a lot. Especially "Parsifal" and "Meistersinger". But I definitely agree with you on "Frau ohne Schatten"--that particular opera just might be the most 'Wagnerian' of Strauss' operas in tone, color and concept. It's just remarkable.


To me they would be the very definition of "anti-Wagnerian", since they are essentially what Wagner would have sounded like without patient buildups. Strauss's father was a strong Wagner hater (he played in the debut of Die Meistersinger and led a strike in the orchestral when they got sick and tired of Wagner making rehearsals tedious) and his hate was passed on to his son for many years. It was only after a while that Strauss managed to appreciate the beauty of Wagner's music, and that was apparent in the influence on Frau ohne Schatten.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Richard Strauss was conservative...*

Indeed...at his time the second school of Vienna was causing Revolution!

Zemlinsky, Schreker...and worse! Schönberg, Berg, Webern...were exploring atonal music, dodecaphonic...maths applied to music! but Strauss was still expoling neo-romantic avenues...

His orchestral pieces are very nice, I remember the burlesque is quite good indeed so are his concertos for oboe, etc. are very nice...

The only thing I don't like about him...that I heard we was a bit nazzi...I hope not.

He was conservative...Is Conservative = bad?

I don't think so. Philipp Glass is not conservative and he is really* BAD*! LOL

Martin


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

It's ******** that Strauss was conservative. He was only four years younger than Mahler which is never called conservative. 

Many people are mistaken because of Strauss long life. They see that he died in late 40's and automatically expect him to sound like composers from WWI-WWII period. That's not how it works. Strauss belong to the same generation as Mahler and considering that he was more innovative than conservative, most notable proof of this FACT are Salome and Elektra - if not those two revolutionary masterpieces there would be no ground prepared for likes of Berg. 

Berg died in 1935, Strauss in 1949 but Strauss and his visions precede him and whole Second Viennese School. 

Don't blame him for having life long enough to outlive artists from younger generations, don't let this fool you.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> The only thing I don't like about him...that I heard we was a bit nazzi...I hope not.
> 
> Martin


He was apolitical. In fact, he despised nazi Germany but figured that he as an artist was above politics and that whatever he would do wouldn't make a difference anyway. So, at best he was extremely naive and at worst a bit of a coward, but he definitely didn't agree with the nazi's, although he never spoke out against them either. Several of his best firiends were Jews, including his favorite librettists and his son (who actually WAS a nazi) was married to a Jewish girl (whom he adored) which may to some degree explain his attitude because he tried to use his influence and status as a composer to prevent the nazi's from arresting the girl and her family.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Just included him in the top20 favourite composers thread. I particularly like the Vier letzte Lieder and Metamorphosen.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Many people are mistaken because of Strauss long life. They see that he died in late 40's and automatically expect him to sound like composers from WWI-WWII period. That's not how it works. Strauss belong to the same generation as Mahler and considering that he was more innovative than conservative, most notable proof of this FACT are Salome and Elektra - if not those two revolutionary masterpieces there would be no ground prepared for likes of Berg.



> Berg died in 1935, Strauss in 1949 but Strauss and his visions precede him and whole Second Viennese School.
> 
> Don't blame him for having life long enough to outlive artists from younger generations, don't let this fool you.


__________________

Well....I like very much his music and I guess he WAS conservative. Mahler...Schreker...Zemlinsky...we are speaking about expressionism here! They were more modern than Strauss...I have no problmes with that....I lovve Mozart and Monteverdi is my idol...they weren't modern...LOL

R. Strauss is quite conservative...he has some pieces I do not like...

ex.:

Le bourgeois gentilhomme is b...a.....d.....
Also sprach Zaratustra is modern!!!!! Maybe Nietsche text had some influence for that!

Elektra and Salome are modern...something happened in his life (I don't know what) but he became more classical... Der Rosenkavalier is a work I call type 2....LOL....LOL....LOL

Classification for Martin

Type 1: The composer composes for himself/herself....Others are not important.
Type 2: The composer composes just for others (le désire de plaire)...He/she doesn't necessary like the work
Type 3: The composer thinks about things he/she likes but also think of others.

Luigi Nono: Type 1 ...even though I like many of his pieces...
Bartok: Type 3
Salomé, Elektra: Type 3
Der Rosenkavalier: type 2 ( I think is corny, cheezey, etc)
Beethoven: mainly type 2....

Richard Strauss became a romantic after these two operas...Daphne, Helene Egyptian, Danae
his first operas are interesting also...Guntram is very nice, a bit Italian...

I have all his operas...

I have some on DVD...

Martin


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Mahler...Schreker...Zemlinsky...we are speaking about expressionism here! They were more modern than Strauss...


Schreker was way younger than Strauss (1878 - 14 years, Strauss already had much of his musical education done when Schreker was baby child) and didn't bring anything historically important.

Let's face it, conservative composers never bring anything as new and fresh as Strauss did, he was equal to Mahler - not kind of guy to turn everything upside down, but someone to combine tradition with fresh wave of contemporary inventions.

Also, Elektra is one of greatest highlights of expressionism way more important than anything that Schreker and Zemlinsky wrote.



> Elektra and Salome are modern...something happened in his life (I don't know what) but he became more classical...


He always was romantic to some extent and fact that he remained himself and didn't turn to styles that were developed when he already was grown and mature composer with his own style doesn't change his status of innovative fellow.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Here we have a chronogical list of his operas:

Guntram is considered his first opera, ver nice...Feursnot...nice too.

Salome, Elektra: shocking! provocative
Der Rosenkavalier....to make pleasure to old ladies (?). I don't like it. A big change...WHY ???
Ariadne: in between..two different worlds...the theatre inside the theatre (like Cervantes in the 1600's)
Die Frau ohne schatten...a post-Wagner opera...beautiful, a fairy tale...not very complicated...
Intermezzo...Does this title mean: chang of life? change of orientation? Middle age crises?

From there every single opera is "conformist" in its style....Martin has very weird theories...Martin without weirdness wouldn't be Martin....LOL. The_ silent woman _opera is insignificant, others are just nice, except Arabella (I love this little opera)....LOL

Martin

Guntram, op. 25 (10.5.1894 Weimar Hoftheater) 
Feuersnot, op. 50 (21.11.1901 Dresden Hofoper) 
Salome, op. 54 (9.12.1905 Dresden Hofoper) 
Elektra, op. 58 (25.1.1909 Dresden Hofoper) 
Der Rosenkavalier, op. 59 (26.1.1911 Dresden Hofoper) 
Ariadne auf Naxos, op. 60 (25.10.1912 Stuttgart Hoftheater) 
Ariadne auf Naxos, op. 60 [rev] (4.10.1916 Vienna Hofoper) 
Die Frau ohne Schatten, op. 65 (10.10.1919 Vienna State Opera) 
Intermezzo, op. 72 (4.11.1924 Dresden State Opera) 
Die ägyptische Helena, op. 75 (6.6.1928 Dresden State Opera) 
Arabella, op. 79 (1.7.1933 Dresden State Opera) 
Die ägyptische Helena, op. 75 (14.8.1933 Salzburg Festpielhaus) 
Die Schweigsame Frau, op. 80 (24.6.1935 Dresden State Opera) 
Friedenstag, op. 81 (24.7.1938 Munich State Opera) 
Daphne, op. 82 (15.10.1938 Dresden State Opera) 
Guntram, op. 25 [rev] (29.10.1940 Weimar National Theatre) 
Die Liebe der Danae, op. 83 (1940; 16.8..1944 Salzburg Festpielhaus [public dress rehearsal]; 14.8.1952 Salzburg Festspielhaus) 
Capriccio, op. 85 (28.10.1942 Munich State Opera)


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I 've loved his music since I was a teenager and consider him to be in fact, a very underrated composer. Yes, he once said about himself,"I may not be a first-rate composer, but I'm a first-rate second-rate composer", but he was being too modest.
I love all the tone poems, and much else by Strauss . His later operas, which have so often been dismissed so lighty, are much better than many critics would have us believe.
Die Schweigsame Frau, Arabella, Die Liebe Der Danae, Daphne, Friedenstag ,and Intermezzo 
are in fact operas that deserve to a part of the operatic repertoire,and his final one,Capriccio,is rightly considered a masterpiece, although not a work which opera newbies 
are likely to appreciate until they get more general experience listening to opera. 
It's operatic caviar, and perhaps an aquired taste, but one worth aquiring.
The ballet score Josephselgende, which is almost never performed ,even in exceprt form, is deliciously decadent and sumptuous; I have the Denon recording,which comes from of all places,Japan, with Hiroshi Wakasugi conducting.
Of course,Four Last songs is one of the most sublime works ever written. 
I also have Neeme Jarvi's Chandos recording of the early symphony in F minor, which though no masterpiece,is quite attractive and worth hearing. I have not heard the other early symphony,but would like to.
The early horn concerto no 1 is a fine work, and the much more difficult second,written when he was almost 80 is a mature masterpiece,ditto the oboe concerto of around the same time.
Strauss's output is a goldmine of wonderful music .


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I love Josephselgende and many other composition you're mentionning...He's a great composer!

Martin


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

*June 11th 1864 Richard Strauss*



June 11th 1864 Richard Strauss, German composer


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Happy Birthday, R, stands for the 'Real' Strauss! 

One of the least polarizing composers of all. He made it to a lot of peoples' lists.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

I remember listening to Metamorphosis (the Karajan recording I think) on a car journey one day and being awed by its staggering power. A true musical hero. Represents a certain late peak of tonal music for me.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ But then even Klemperer - who didn't like Strauss's music - liked Metamorphosen. I guess it is our reaction to the operas and/or the tone poems that define how well we like Strauss. Count me in, BTW.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

June 11th, 1864: Reek hard, Strauss.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Strauss wrote wonderful Mozart-influenced chamber music for winds including the *Serenade in E Op. 7*, one of my favorite of his works. I also enjoy the *Sonatina in E flat* subtitled "The Happy Workshop" and the piano and wind reduction of *Til Eulenspiegel*.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Happy belated birthday to Strauss! I gain great enjoyment from the majority of his works, but two late products of his “Indian Summer” which tend to be overlooked and which never fail to make me smile in delight, are his Oboe Concerto and Concertino Duet for Clarinet and Bassoon. A very different type of “autumnal” quality than the deeply moving valedictory lyricism of the Four Last Songs and Metamorphosen.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

larold said:


> Strauss wrote wonderful Mozart-influenced chamber music for winds including the *Serenade in E Op. 7*, one of my favorite of his works. I also enjoy the *Sonatina in E flat* subtitled "The Happy Workshop" and the piano and wind reduction of *Til Eulenspiegel*.


Bah! That was his retreat into classicism! The best works are Elektra and Metamorphosen!


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