# Stravinsky Firebird 1910, Ravel's Daphne 1912



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Now I can see where Ravel received some of his ideas. 
I think ravel heard very carefully Stravinsky's Firebird and especially in the final 2 sections,,Ravel was deeply impressed and so used a few ideas in Daphne and also in Ma Mer L Oye. 

Amazing, just amazing,,,born out of the Firebirds death ,,,comes the birth of Ravel's Daphne and Ma Mer L oye.
Just unreal. 


The Firebird went willingly into the falmes , in order to achieve a rebirth. 
Thus Ravel's masterpieces come forth from Stravinsky

What a story , what a mystery unfolded.


The things we never knew.
It was only just now, as I listened very carefully to Stravinsky's recording of his Firebird/Columbia SO. 


I was always so curious, where did Ravel get such ideas from?



The genius of Ravel never ceases to amaze. I've always said, Ravel has yet to be discovered. 

Folks say,,,*what are you talking about???*. 
Why even try to explain to anyone who asks such a question,,,as its quite obvious what I mean. 

Only us Ravelians understand the answer to this exclamation.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Simple fact check:
Firebird premiered at the Opéra de Paris on 25 June 1910.
Ma mère l'oye premiered at the Société musicale indépendante on 20 April 1910.


----------



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

So how do you explain a similiarity in the codas. A glorious buildup, and resolution,,,Ravel's is the more developed. 

Not sure, does anyone else feel the 2 works are slightly connected if only for that finale? Stravinsky's work , thougha few weeks after Ma Mer, was no doubt already in the final touches. 
Who influenced who?


There are places in the finale of Firebird which are stunningly beautiful,,,but the finale of the coda,,,seems to not want to end properly,,,just when you think the ending is very near, nope, Stravinsky extenuated it yet even more,,,now here,,,it is arriving,,,nope, NOT YET,,NOw? ,,,almost,,,
With Ravel,, the ending comes exactly when it is supposed to,,,Too many false endings with Stravinsky,,,almost over theatrical. 


Whereas with Ravel's Ma Mer Loye,,,every note just falls right where it is suppose to.


Not sure how the public reacted at both premiere's, but it would seem with Ravel's more developed, more concise ending, , his work would have over shadowed Stravinsky's in terms of authentic musical craftmanship.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I've felt that Daphnis was very Stravinskyan ever since first listening. You know they knew each other and were good friends? According to Stravinsky's long-time right-hand man Robert Craft, Ravel and Stravinsky had a homosexual affair of some sort, though he bases that claim on flimsy evidence and I don't buy it. In any case, both composers heavily influenced each other (along with Debussy, who was a third member of this holy trinity). And then Rimsky-Korsakov was a father to them all. The music of all 3 composers owes a lot to him, especially in terms of orchestration.


----------



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Excellent post, Thanks a lot for those insightful thoughts. I always wondered how ravel arrived at his orchestrations. His influences. There had to be connections...Rimsky Korsakov's lush sentimental/oriental themes, along with friendship with Stravinsky,,,,both were powerful influences on Ravel. 
Now it all makes sense. 
As there is no way Ravel came up with all his music on his own, independent creativity.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Ravel was highly influenced by a lot of his peers (I'd say more so than he was influenced by any historical composers) but what makes him great is his individual voice, which shines through in most of his greatest works. You can always tell a Ravel piece by the first several notes.

Take the string quartet for instance. Who else would have written that beautiful opening phrase?


----------



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> Ravel was highly influenced by a lot of his peers (I'd say more so than he was influenced by any historical composers) but what makes him great is his individual voice, which shines through in most of his greatest works. You can always tell a Ravel piece by the first several notes.
> 
> Take the string quartet for instance. Who else would have written that beautiful opening phrase?


Oh yes, I've said this many times here on TC, Ravel stands alone. Sure one can say this just about any composer early 20th C. 
I guess what we are saying is the chords and imaginative colors which explode in Ravel's works,, its limitless how one can describe his works.
Ravel , more than any other composer in history offers true archetypal beauty. Its power to hold ones attention is magical.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Aaron Copland in the preface to his book _What to Listen for in Music_ wrote "if beauty was the only thing we measured the greatness of music by, then Ravel would be universally rated as greater than Beethoven", or something along those lines.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

flamencosketches said:


> According to Stravinsky's long-time right-hand man Robert Craft, Ravel and Stravinsky had a homosexual affair of some sort...


Thanks for the visual! :lol: What do you mean by "Stravinsky's right-hand man?"


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

The big secret is that Ravel sometimes wrote for the piano like he was strumming a harp! (Example above.)  As great a composer as he was, where would he have been if Debussy hadn't first broken radically new ground? As masterful of Ravel was, Debussy was the true original and I find it hard to hear Ravel without thinking of the tremendously imaginative Debussy, who was not quite as earthbound. The same with Stravinsky, who was also highly influenced. Still, Ravel's Daphnis and Chloe is a marvelous work of orchestrated perfection.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

I'm ordering it from Tel-Aviv on Friday; thanks flamencosketches for recommending me!


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> Thanks for the visual! :lol: What do you mean by "Stravinsky's right-hand man?"


Just a turn of phrase.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

,........,.......,................


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Thanks for the visual! What do you mean by "Stravinsky's right-hand man?"



flamencosketches said:


> Just a turn of phrase.


Oh dear. Warped minds. The sort of individuals who believe an innuendo is a type of Spanish suppository. :angel:


----------



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> The big secret is that Ravel sometimes wrote for the piano like he was strumming a harp! (Example above.)  As great a composer as he was, where would he have been if Debussy hadn't first broken radically new ground? As masterful of Ravel was, Debussy was the true original and I find it hard to hear Ravel without thinking of the tremendously imaginative Debussy, who was not quite as earthbound. The same with Stravinsky, who was also highly influenced. Still, Ravel's Daphnis and Chloe is a marvelous work of orchestrated perfection.


You know this is a good insight, Consider Debussy's Prelude,,,written 18,,,be right back....1894/1st premiered Paris.

UNREAL That work sure fired up Ravel's imaginations as to what music could become.

*writing for piano like strumming a harp*.

Magical, yet most daunting for pianists to perform.


----------



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

The OP should read
Stravinsky's Firbird and ravel's Ma Mer Loye
as both have a very similar ending.
Composeed nearly same yrs. Stravinsky overtook Ravel's premiere of Ma Mer L Oye, due to Stravinsky's exotic dancers which the Parisians went crazy over , Stravinsky's staging of his ballets were the rage of Europe with the most exotic dancers, took Europe by storm,,,,Now some 100 yrs later,,the dust has finally settled. and we have 
Stravinsky Firebird
and 
Ravel's Ma mEr Loye
Listen here to this stunning, totally committed, very well rehearsed , perfectly executed
performance 
with Boulez and his Berolin forces. 
Not sure this might be the Berlin Phil, not the Berlin SO.

On the ending, I prefer Skroweczewski/Minnesota coda where the line stays extended til it fades off into the starry realms, Giving the finale a *fairy like* ending. 
Some conductors extend, others end abruptly. 
We are only talking a few seconds,,but as you know in CM, just the tiniest nuances in our personal favs, makes all the difference.

Yet there are things in the coda which I just now heard, and can't wait to get my all tube stereo back from the shop, now 2 months and will be another 3 weeks.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

What is taking them so long to fix your stereo, man?


----------

