# TENOR TOURNAMENT (By Request Teacher-Student): De Lucia vs Thill



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Fernando De Lucia, Italy, 1860-1925






Georges Thill, France, 1897-1984






'Che gelida manina' from Puccini's _La Boheme_.

Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Interesting that both should take it so slowly. Although I thought both were probably too slow, Da Lucia rendition was significantly more guilty of this. He sings brilliantly, with an excellent Legato line and nice vocal effects, but it is not enough to overcome such an extreme tempo choice. George Thill is similarly brilliant, has an extraordinary high C (gave me chills), and isn't quite so inhibited by the tempo. Thill gets my vote.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Mr. De Lucia seems to be improvising what he sings, even to the notes he sings. Does he have a different score? I didn’t like his version of it, even though he seems to be singing it with admirable art. I just don’t believe he’s singing to anybody. 

I responded very well to Mr. Thill, as I usually do. His voice is, by turns, tender and later, urgent. I love his voice, properly produced throughout and heroic at the climaxes, though I sense the odd note sometimes doesn’t sit well for him. I don’t mind his singing the aria in the “wrong” language if he sings it like he does.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

De Lucia's is the oddest performance of this I've ever heard. His distensions of tempo, his substitutions of unwritten notes for the written ones, his abrupt transposition down a half-step in midstream, and his general air of dreamy self-indulgence bring to mind Rossini's response to an overly creative soprano singing his music, "That was lovely, dear. Who wrote it?" De Lucia certainly has an impeccable technique, and you'll either like his quick, conspicuous vibrato or you won't (I always have to adjust to it after an initial hesitation), but his idea of Puccini isn't mine.

Thill, singing in French, is paradoxically more idiomatic. Unlike De Lucia, he sounds like Rodolfo rather than merely a singer doing something with (or to) a piece of music, and he's vocally splendid, equally gorgeous high and low, soft and loud, with free, thrilling high notes. An easy choice for me.

Style and language aside, what wouldn't we give to hear a contemporary tenor who could sing like either of these gents?


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

George's voice is to the point for this aria. Fernando is doing his own things here and the aria didn't go very well. *George easily.*

(George's performance GENERALY is of VERY high standards. I could say legendary performance.)


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Well, I'm not quite sure what to say. De Lucia has a superb technique, but I really don't quite understand what he's doing with the aria and I wonder what Puccini would have had to say about it (and I see he sang Rodolfo in the first Milan performancein 1895). He not only plays fast and loose with the notes but even has a jarring key change in the middle. I didn't like his version at all, I'm afraid.

Thill, on the other hand, was just wonderful, and I found I didn't mind at all that he was singing it in French. A glorious top C of course, but I also believed in his Rodolfo. Thill for sure.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

De Lucia is sui generis. Interesting to hear the interpretive freedom of a tenor who probably knew Puccini and may have even performed the role with his input (de Lucia sang the first performance of Boheme in Milan).

But Thill possessed one the greatest voices of the 20th century - and de Lucia clearly did not. Thill's is a much cleaner, better integrated performance, without all of the effects that de Lucia slathers on.

Thill by a mile.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

How interesting that De Lucia typically sings those wonderful tremolos so very popular in my grandfather's day -- as I hear my grandfather also singing arias in that same way and with the nuances of the time that are lost in today's singers.
But no amount of unusual presentation will lure me away from an absolutely thrilling Thill (say that 10 times fast) who is impossible to beat with his gorgeous sound.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If De Lucia sang this in Milan (though Wiki says 1897 rather than 1895, which is probably right if the premiere was in 1896), it seems not unlikely that Puccini heard him do it at some point. What would he have said about the changes to his melodic line? It surprises me that as late as 1917, when this recording was made, a singer would take such liberties with the music of a contemporary composer. 

The tradition of embellishing 18th-century music and earlier Italian opera was still very much alive; in music from the Baroque to early Verdi, ornaments might be added or altered, written cadenzas elaborated, simplified or replaced, and whole phrases transposed or essentially rewritten, as we can hear on many recordings from the prewar period. None of this was apparently found objectionable in principle; creativity of this sort was evidently valued within the limits of good taste, however defined at the time. But the musical styles of late Romantic and 20th-century opera don't offer obvious opportunities for improvisation, and I really can't think of any such opportunities in the operas of late Verdi, Puccini, or Wagner, excepting perhaps the occasional substitution of spoken declamation for sung tones as in Tosca's "E avanti a lui tremava tutta Roma!", which seems a very "verismo" thing to do. (How any of this applies to the atonal music of Berg, Schoenberg and other 20th-century modern styles is probably a subject in itself. If I were feeling devilish I'd say that in many cases it doesn't matter what notes you sing, or whether you sing at all. But at the moment I'm feeling quite angelic :devil.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

De Lucia, for me. At times it is not quite Puccini, but he is a uniquely _poetic_ Rodolfo.

Thill is a marvellous singer: that is a superb recording.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I find De Lucia's recording fascinating, for all the reasons above, but I find Thill's great.

Interestingly, De Lucia was known in his day as a great interpreter of _verismo_ operas, while we today think of him as a quintessentially 19th century singer. He certainly seems more 19th century stylistically than 20th century. The changes that he introduced along with the incredibly slow speed and extreme rubato made me feel that his rendition was more like a standalone piece of music than an excerpt from an opera. I cannot imagine the opera happening up to the beginning of this piece and then just continuing after that. What Mimi would follow that? How would you? Also, I find the laugh he throws in there absolutely priceless.

I agree with the others here that Thill's C and the way he comes down from it are glorious. Also that he sounds extremely idiomatic. As Tsaraslondon said, he's extremely in character, and he really phrases and shades beautifully. It curiously makes me want to hear this opera in French, something I've never wanted to do before. Maybe Thill with Vallin as Mimi and Arthur Endreze as Marcello....

Thill certainly did not pick up De Lucia's stylistic habits. I remember a clip of Thill talking about De Lucia and saying that he emphasized that the mouth must be open vertically. In another interview he says that De Lucia said a singer is only actually good about once a year.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

vivalagentenuova said:


> It curiously makes me want to hear this opera in French, something I've never wanted to do before. Maybe Thill with Vallin as Mimi and Arthur Endreze as Marcello....


Now that's something I'd love to hear.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

vivalagentenuova said:


> It curiously makes me want to hear this opera in French, something I've never wanted to do before. Maybe Thill with Vallin as Mimi and Arthur Endreze as Marcello....


Why not? It isn't "La Boemiana," after all. We could then move on to "Madame Papillon," "La fille de l'ouest d'or," "Soeur Angelique" and "Tourandeau."


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

De Lucia is sight-reading without glasses  Not only he tinkers with written notes but also rhythmically as well as dynamically. Jazz comes to opera.

Thill's singing is amazingly fresh and, shall I say, poetic. Breathtaking top C. Some jaw-dropping singing, this is the guy Mimi would fall in love with (unless she's more into jazz )


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

I often feel like I inhabit a planet of my own when I hear Thill sing and watch how others react to it. He had a glorious voice, yes, but to me that glory covers only the first two thirds of his range. Everything above that is unnaturally white and unsupported, utterly losing the core of his true voice. It sounds like he just cheated on just about every high note he ever sang. I don't like it. He's best in lighter, non-operatic fare for me because of that.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Oh dear me! I am sure to read a lot of interesting posts above after I vote but I can only tell you that Thill, of course, did a spectacular version simply beautifully and easily despite the fact that I miss my Italian words which add so much to my enjoyment. His voice is simply like a pure painting to me executed with perfection.
However, I was totally astounded by the performance by de Lucia (whom I have never heard before) because his heart was so deep down into his feelings that his emotions were bubbling up to the surface with beautiful passion despite the fact that he was adding words, changing notes and even tempos that were not there, and literally making them his own. But those changes had me all but glued to every single word and the way he decided it should be sung. (Maria would have had a fit!) 
It was such an emotional experience and a daring choice that despite his unique interpretation, and knowing that any Thill-loving person would be crazy not to tick his square, I will be the only one to give it to De Lucia because he obviously taught his pupil the intricacies of voice very well.
(Maybe next time he will do Puccini's version!)

*Well I just noticed that this must have been offered some time ago and that I already had voted for Thill. (Makes sense)
However, whatever De Lucia was singing, I truly enjoyed his out-of-the-box interpretation.


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

Don't really listen to these two.
Did just one listen of each for first impressions.
Thill was better.
More consistency of tone primarily due to more even vocal placement and better breath control.
Deluca's vocal placement was a bit all over the shop leading to inconsistency and blending of tone and register.
He has a quite fast vibrato. It could be natural to him or his breath control is lacking or maybe just non existent.
Thill is awarded the Inger Schlopps Scholarship.


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