# Bruckner: String Quintet



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

It is no secret I strongly prefer the string quintet to string quartet. 

The quintet by Bruckner is a new friend of mine. Again I am proved that the quintet allows more of the personality of the composer to shine through than the quartet. This is beautiful Bruckner and I feel the ensemble does not restrict the great symphonist. Wonderful textures and ostinatos. This is pure joy!

I love chamber music when it does not restrict the free spirit of the composer. This is a fine example of that.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I'll be honest, Waehnen, I find it a strange piece and not the best of his output. Perhaps its just me but the quintet almost seems like it's trying to ape his symphonic work by writing a symphony for 5 strings. It just doesn't work for me. I don't dislike it but I've never been convinced and much prefer his quartet but even that's a strange piece (I'm surprised no one has chosen it for the weekly quartet, tbh). Suffice it to say, I don't believe he was a natural chamber music writer a la Mendelssohn.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Merl said:


> I'll be honest, Waehnen, I find it a strange piece and not the best of his output. Perhaps its just me but the quintet almost seems like it's trying to ape his symphonic work by writing a symphony for 5 strings. It just doesn't work for me. I don't dislike it but I've never been convinced and much prefer his quartet but even that's a strange piece (I'm surprised no one has chosen it for the weekly quartet, tbh). Suffice it to say, I don't believe he was a natural chamber music writer a la Mendelssohn.


I agree, it is symphonic music - which indicates to me that his spirit is free and the ensemble does not limit his imagination.

It is also agreeable that Bruckner wasn't as idiomatic a chamber music composer as Mendelssohn was.

For some reason none of the above bother me. On the contrary, I dislike quartet writing that is born out of "idiomatic quartet writing" rather than inspired expression and original, meaningful ideas.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

It's certainly different but some (like you, Waehnen) like that. I don't know enough about Bruckner as a person to say whether he enjoyed writing for smaller forces. It would be interesting to know (do you know anything about his feelings on this from anything you've read, Waehnen?).


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think it is a good piece and although sharing features with the composer's symphonies it doesn't try to sound orchestral in a way that could not really succeed. But I also think that Bruckner's style in general benefits from the colors and power of a full orchestra, so I can understand that the quintet is not as popular as might be expected.

With the great chamber music composers, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Brahms, even Schumann and Schubert (despite some issues here) I usually never feel that their chamber music "suffers" by restricting their imagination. The Bruckner quintet is a borderline case but maybe just because one cannot help comparing it with the symphonies. The Franck quintet and quartet, also the Grieg quintet have features that sound to me like "missing an orchestra" and trying too hard to create a "big sound". Concertante chamber music with a dominating instrument (Trout quintet, Weber's clarinet quintet, Schumann's piano quintet maybe a borderline case) usually works better for me than "wannabe orchestral".


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Withe the great chamber music composers, Haydn, Mozart, ........ I usually never feel that their chamber music "suffers" by restricting their imagination.


I think much of the instrumental ensemble stuff in the 18th century works naturally in both chamber music arrangements as well as orchestral settings, partly because of the general 18th century style harmony and instrumentation (which I talked about in another thread) and the fact that the concept of the modern orchestra didn't quite exist before Berlioz.




Kristian Bezuidenhout: "The piano because of its delicacy is not going to be heard all the time. In fact, there are places where you'll probably be struggling to hear a little bit. But I think this kind of chamber music approach to the piano concerto -in which the piano comes in and out of focus constantly; sometimes the winds are playing prominent solos, so you'll hear those much more vividly- that kind of chamber music approach to the piano concerto is very important for Mozart."




MOZART PIANO CONCERTO NO. 12 KV414 (Kristian Bezuidenhout & Chiaroscuro Quartet):


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

I absolutely adore Bruckner's string quintet, and I think it's among the greatest 19th quintets, on par with Schubert and Brahms (2x).
It was written when Bruckner was at the top of his creativity, between the 5th and 6th symphonies - and it's just a horn of plenty with some of the composer's most gorgeous melodies (the main themes from the 1st and 3rd movements stand out).
I think I came to know this piece even before the symphonies, and directly after being introduced to Beethoven's late string quartets. In some way Bruckner's quintet is a worthy continuation of Beethoven's late styl (though it's interesting to note that Bruckner didn't know Beethoven's SQ's yet when he composed his quintet...)


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

RobertJTh said:


> In some way Bruckner's quintet is a worthy continuation of Beethoven's late styl (though it's interesting to note that Bruckner didn't know Beethoven's SQ's yet when he composed his quintet...)


This seems extremely unlikely; how could a composer in 1870s Austria not know (and likely have studied, if he wanted to write chamber music) Late Beethoven quartets? I see now that this is in the wikipedia article and apparently documented by some biographer. I still find it unlikely. Bruckner was a late bloomer who formally studied music into his 40s. He might not have studied (all/late) Beethoven quartets in details or owned scores but he wasn't a cloistered hermit or so, so total ignorance of these works seems implausible.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

If Brahms had composed something like this, he would viciously stab the sheet music with a poker in the hearth the very next moment.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Highwayman said:


> If Brahms had composed something like this, he would viciously stab the sheet music with a poker in the hearth the very next moment.


Would you mind translating this or care to elaborate?


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> Would you mind translating this or care to elaborate?


I wouldn`t mind but I fear it might be more offensive to the Bruckner fans here if I paraphrase it or elaborate on it.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Highwayman said:


> I wouldn`t mind but I fear it might be more offensive to the Bruckner fans here if I paraphrase it or elaborate on it.


I think opinions should be expressed in a forumist environment! Feel free! Let there be no fear of the Bruckner, Mahler or Sibelius fanatics! There ought to be a handful of adults here who will not totally collapse on such notions.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Highwayman said:


> I wouldn`t mind but I fear it might be more offensive to the Bruckner fans here if I paraphrase it or elaborate on it.


Ha!
Let's recreate and relive the days of Hanslick and Kalbeck! :devil:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


>


........................


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I actually quite like both Bruckner's Quartet and Quintet and consider them worthy pieces. I also regard them as essential listening for anyone wishing to understand this composer in greater depth: less so perhaps than the choral pieces, but in my opinion they are not simply to be dismissed.

Of course I am not going to turn to them as often as the choral music, much less the great symphonies. Nevertheless, I do enjoy them.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Waehnen said:


> Would you mind translating this or care to elaborate?


He's saying he believes that Brahms, had his pen somehow produced the Bruckner Quintet, would have thrown it in the fireplace within minutes and used a poker to stir it around, thus making sure none of it survived to sully his reputation. Note: I'm not expressing an opinion, just trying to "translate" what seemed a transparent statement to me.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

EdwardBast said:


> He's saying he believes that Brahms, had his pen somehow produced the Bruckner Quintet, would have thrown it in the fireplace within minutes and used a poker to stir it around, thus making sure none of it survived to sully his reputation. Note: I'm not expressing an opinion, just trying to "translate" what seemed a transparent statement to me.


It would be most meaningful if this supposed Brahms would somehow elaborate what is so awful about the quintet.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Brahms is on the historical record as detesting Bruckner's music, and was pretty much a total arsch-hole towards him on multiple occasions, including trying to block performances of his symphonies in Vienna. I'm not remembering specific details, but they're easy to find with an Internet search. 

In my opinion, as someone who loves the music of both Bruckner and Brahms, Brahms's opprobrium reflects on himself only, and not on Bruckner.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Waehnen said:


> It would be most meaningful if this supposed Brahms would somehow elaborate what is so awful about the quintet.


Brahms burned a lot of music by Brahms and he undervalued some of his own chamber music that a critical consensus seems to consider superb. So Bruckner's Quintet would not have to be awful for Brahms to want to burn it. He was by all accounts a freakin' pyromaniac. It would just have to be inferior to Brahms' least distinguished chamber music.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

EdwardBast said:


> It would just have to be inferior to Brahms' least distinguished chamber music.


Bruckner's Quintet and Quartet are sufficiently different in esthetic goals from anything from Brahms tried as to make a direct comparison a bit pointless, in my opinion.

If push came to shove, I think I should admit that I regard as Brahms's Quartets and Quintets as superior to Bruckner's, but never so much so as to make it a waste of time to get to know Bruckner's, especially considering how different they are in the first place.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Knorf said:


> Bruckner's Quintet and Quartet are sufficiently different in esthetic goals from anything from Brahms tried as to make a direct comparison a bit pointless, in my opinion.
> 
> If push came to shove, I think I should admit that I regard as Brahms's Quartets and Quintets as superior to Bruckner's, but never so much so as to make it a waste of time to get to know Bruckner's, especially considering how different they are in the first place.


Listening to the Quintet again. It is very different from anything Brahms. I cannot help but adore a composer whose spirit comes through no matter what the ensemble.

(Brahms wasn't known for the idiomatic instrumental writing in his chamber music either, but it has never bothered me the slightest. Idiomatic writing is a preconception. More important question should be: does this music work and sound good?)


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