# The most important non-musician in music



## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

I was wondering who everybody thought was the most important non-musician in music. It might be a patron, or an opera house builder, or a composer's wife or muse. Anything like that. Just somebody that was not, at least primarily, a musician but furthered music in some way.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Dr Charles Burney, the world's *first* musicologist.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Sergei Diaghilev - consider the broad range of composers from whom he commissioned works.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

One very important such was the amazing Lorenzo da Ponte, Mozart's ace librettist. His life story reads like a picaresque novel and would make a wonderful movie.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'd say Archduke Maximilian Francis of Austria, Elector of Bonn, who bankrolled not one but two trips to Vienna by Beethoven, the first to study with Mozart and the second to study with Haydn. Beethoven never returned from his second trip, and we know where that ended up.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

KenOC said:


> I'd say Archduke Maximilian Francis of Austria, Elector of Bonn, who bankrolled not one but two trips to Vienna by Beethoven, the first to study with Mozart and the second to study with Haydn. Beethoven never returned from his second trip, and we know where that ended up.


I actually don't know where Beethoven ended up after that. Sorry if this a stupid question, but what do you mean when you say Beethoven never returned from his second trip? I feel like there's an inside joke I'm not getting.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

No joke at all. There was some expectation that Beethoven would learn a lot from Haydn and bring his expertise back to Bonn for its court orchestra, but he never did. In fact, I believe he never set foot in the town of his birth again. I'm open to correction if somebody knows better.

After 1791, Beethoven lived, composed, and died in Vienna, with few trips to distant places. In 1808 he accepted a Kapellmeister position with Napoleon's brother in Cassel, but reneged when offered a handsome stipend to remain in Vienna.

The "where" refers to an outcome, not a place.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm not trying to be proselytizing, but I think Jesus Christ would be the answer. And for sake of lack of argument, granted, some might think he never existed, but even then with all the famous Masses and other religious music, "person" can be seen as a looser category.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

KenOC said:


> No joke at all. There was some expectation that Beethoven would learn a lot from Haydn and bring his expertise back to Bonn for its court orchestra, but he never did. In fact, I believe he never set foot in the town of his birth again. I'm open to correction if somebody knows better.
> 
> After 1791, Beethoven lived, composed, and died in Vienna, with few trips to distant places. In 1808 he accepted a Kapellmeister position with Napoleon's brother in Cassel, but reneged when offered a handsome stipend to remain in Vienna.
> 
> The "where" refers to an outcome, not a place.


Very good answer, I second this :tiphat:


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## Hmmbug (Jun 16, 2014)

Thomas Edison, inventor of the phonograph.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Another VIP in the history of music was Ludwig II, the Wittelsbach king of Bavaria and patron of Wagner. We all know how that ended up: Wagner as the Hero of Music and Ludwig in the loony bin.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

KenOC said:


> No joke at all. There was some expectation that Beethoven would learn a lot from Haydn and bring his expertise back to Bonn for its court orchestra, but he never did. In fact, I believe he never set foot in the town of his birth again. I'm open to correction if somebody knows better.
> 
> After 1791, Beethoven lived, composed, and died in Vienna, with few trips to distant places. In 1808 he accepted a Kapellmeister position with Napoleon's brother in Cassel, but reneged when offered a handsome stipend to remain in Vienna.
> 
> The "where" refers to an outcome, not a place.


If he stayed in Vienna for most of his life, why did he renege on the offer? Seems a good deal.



Strange Magic said:


> Another VIP in the history of music was Ludwig II, the Wittelsbach king of Bavaria and patron of Wagner. We all know how that ended up: Wagner as the Hero of Music and Ludwig in the loony bin.


Thankfully, he wasn't insane. Just a spendthrift.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Herrenvolk said:


> Thankfully, he [Ludwig] wasn't insane. Just a spendthrift.


You may be on to something. Wikipedia has a pretty detailed account of Ludwig's Decline and Fall, and what a rich mix of affluenza, personality disorder possibly overlapping into actual brain disease and insanity, questionable contemporary diagnoses, and strong hints of assassination. Again, a great movie.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

The most important non-musician is the other end of the balanced equation, the person who consumes and reacts to the sounds - you the listener. (Assuming the listener is a non-musician.)


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> Another VIP in the history of music was Ludwig II, the Wittelsbach king of Bavaria and patron of Wagner. We all know how that ended up: Wagner as the Hero of Music and Ludwig in the loony bin.


Didn't they kill him or did I see the film to often?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Didn't they kill him or did I see the film to often?


Found dead in relatively shallow water, along with his doctor, who showed signs of having been assaulted. Assassination a very real possibility.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Any of Beethoven's (many) landlords.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2016)

Probably Hitler or Stalin.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

nathanb said:


> Probably Hitler or Stalin.


Well they _were_ responsible for millions of deaths, so I'm quite sure they were very influential.. Just not in a positive way. If anything I would just argue that the both of them came too late in history to influence things as much. For example, Bach had hundreds of years of being influential to composers. By this logic, Napoleon might be more influential than the both of them, even though he has a lower kill count.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2016)

Dedalus said:


> Well they _were_ responsible for millions of deaths, so I'm quite sure they were very influential.. Just not in a positive way. If anything I would just argue that the both of them came too late in history to influence things as much. For example, Bach had hundreds of years of being influential to composers. By this logic, Napoleon might be more influential than the both of them, even though he has a lower kill count.


How said anything about the dead ones? I'm referring to every composer that was silenced, that changed his or her style, that fled to another country and thus found new influences, or even the one that composed one of his masterpieces in a concentration camp. I can't think of many non-musical folk that had a bigger impact on the course of music.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Hmmm. You know, you could be right. This is kind of a "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin" type of question. Anyway, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Prince Nikolaus Esterházy, the patron of Haydn. Without him maybe there's no Haydn, and if there's no Haydn, then music is very different? Maybe?


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Or George Martin, recently passed away Beatles producer and mentor. Maybe not most important, but up there.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Martin was a musician.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Rudy Van Gelder. Responsible for documenting hundreds and hundreds of legendary jazz albums.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Martin's role to fame was not as musician, rather producer and mentor. In that sense his was a non-musical contribution.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Richard8655 said:


> Martin's role to fame was not as musician, rather producer and mentor. In that sense his was a non-musical contribution.


That's not true. Martin was a musical arranger heavily involved in the realization of the Beatles' music. He also played the famous classical style piano solo on In My Life.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

starthrower said:


> That's not true. Martin was a musical arranger heavily involved in the realization of the Beatles' music. He also played the famous classical style piano solo on In My Life.


I would say his claim to fame though was not as musician with regard to the Beatles. It's a disagreement in how this thread was intended. That's my interpretation and I'll leave it at that.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Approaching from another angle: Thomas Alva Edison, Guglielmo Marconi, etc., etc.; you get the drift...... Everybody can hear music anywhere, anytime.


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## Bayreuth (Jan 20, 2015)

Antonio Stradivari


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: For me, it's any classical radio DJ who says, "The hell with this 10 minute Vivaldi stuff! I'm playing Mahler's Sixth Symphony. Like it or not, sponsors! I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!!!"


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> OP: For me, it's any classical radio DJ who says, "The hell with this 10 minute Vivaldi stuff! I'm playing Mahler's Sixth Symphony. Like it or not, sponsors! I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!!!"


So it's someone who doesn't actually exist?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

hpowders said:


> OP: For me, it's any classical radio DJ who says, "The hell with this 10 minute Vivaldi stuff! I'm playing Mahler's Sixth Symphony. Like it or not, sponsors! I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!!!"


I heard Mahler´s sixth symphony on radio less than three months ago.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Sloe said:


> I heard Mahler´s sixth symphony on radio less than three months ago.


I'm not saying no one ever plays Mahler, I'm saying you don't have DJs disregarding the program director. At least not for long.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> Dr Charles Burney, the world's *first* musicologist.


Musicologists aren't musicians by definition? And even of not, I can't imagine a major one who can't play quite well or hasn't dabbled in composing.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Bayreuth said:


> Antonio Stradivari


Good direction. Instrument builder's and inventors are in a class of their own and they might possess genius and artistry equal to Bach or Mozart in their field, but are so minimally appreciated. Johann Andreas Stein and his clavichords and fortepianos, Cristofari and his first true fortepianos, and the host of other makers who invented and/perfected instruments. It's a marvelous art.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Jesus should be disqualified from this thread. The guy could turn water into wine, and raise himself from the dead, you don't think he could play a killer fugue on any instrument if he wanted? C'mon.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

tdc said:


> Jesus should be disqualified from this thread. The guy could turn water into wine, and raise himself from the dead, you don't think he could play a killer fugue on any instrument if he wanted? C'mon.


Jesus of Nazareth certainly inspired numerous great composers to compose truly great music when church music had a very specific role.


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