# Elliot Carter



## pendereckiobsessed

[Self Disclaimer: this thread is to discuss Elliot Carter and his music, *NOT* to bash on tonality/atonality]
[HR][/HR]
Elliot Carter, one of the greatest American composers if not the greatest. He is the most decorated, and the oldest living published composer.

My favorite aspect of his music are the range of moods he can produce in one composition. You can always find very complicated rhythms which give pushing energy. He switches between sets of tempi fairly quickly in his quartets. I also love listening to his interviews which are on youtube and other places.

So what do you love about his music?


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## KenOC

Can you post the names of two or three of Carter's best works for a tyro?


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## Vaneyes

*So what do you love about his music?

*Because it's not Americana, for one thing. There are other leading American composers who resisted the pop route. Each are to be commended for their own spheres.


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## pendereckiobsessed

KenOC said:


> Can you post the names of two or three of Carter's best works for a tyro?


Sure! Any of his quartets, his Night Fantasies, Canon in 3 (in memorian Igor Stravinsky), of course there are other great works of his, but those I listed are the ones I know the best. Happy listening!


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## KenOC

Thanks! (too short it seems, so) Thanks a lot!


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## arpeggio

*Why I learned to like Carter*

I joined Talk Classical on October 4, 2012. The following is one of the first posts that I ever submitted here.



arpeggio said:


> I had a very circuitous path to Carter. At one time I could only understand his early music. I never could grasp anything he composed after his _Variations_.
> 
> Many years ago I read an interesting review about Carter. The author stated that in order to understand Carter one must first become familiar with his chamber works. When a symphony orchestra performs his music they only have limited rehearsal time while a string quartet would have the luxury of spending months working on one of his works. I then remembered Schoenberg's statement, "My music is not modern, it is merely badly played". So I secured a copy of the Julliard performing his first four string quartets. I was hooked. Carter is now my favorite modernist composer.
> 
> His music is so complicated that it is difficult to perform. Musicians today have a better feel for his music. I have an early LP of the _Piano Concerto_ with the by Boston Symphony Orchestra, Erich Leinsdorf, Jacob Lateiner on piano. My reaction to this performance was similar to Xavier's reaction to Carter's music in general. To my flawed ears it was alot of noise. Back in 2002 I secured a copy of the recording of the _Piano Concerto_ on Naxos with Mark Wait and the Nashville Symphony. My reaction then was wait a minute, there is music here. Nashville may not be in the same league as Boston, but the Nashville musicians of 2002 understood Carter better than the Boston musicians of 1968.
> 
> (Note: In the summer of 2005 my wife and I visited Tanglewood in Western Massachusetts and attended several concerts. At one concert the Boston Symphony performed Elliott Carter's _Adagio tenebroso _and the orchestra nailed it.)


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## arpeggio

*Carter Interview*

Back in 2008 Charlie Rose did an interview with Elliott Carter, Daniel Barenboim and James Levine. I could not find the entire interview. I did find this short excerpt:


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## PetrB

His music is 'American' in that much of it, 'under the cloth' of the complexity and / or density, if one listens readily enough, is straightforward; it has a plain and durable ruggedness; it is still, somehow, tertian based or at least one hears thirds amidst the dense and sometimes formal vocabulary, which I find both charming, a bit sweet, and a touch ironic in the middle of, say, his Symphony of three orchestras, or the Concerto for Piano, Harpsichord, two orchestras and percussion.

The two vocal works I know of are both highly satisfying. Syringa, and along with that on the same CD, A Mirror on which to dwell, are very different works, the Syringa being lovely, fascinating and moving.

I love finding in a composer's earlier works the hallmarks and personal traits which will later predominate their minds and become manifest in their vocabulary. Some 'citations' for early Carter then are:
Sonata for Cello and Piano. This is lyric, preoccupied with mixed meter and his first (consistent) use of metric modulation as a structural element. The third movement -- a slow one, is amazingly declamatory, lyric-dramatic, yet still stringently 'disciplined.' 

The solo piano sonata is more 'austere' in a way, but still highly listenable, leaving one with the impression this is one of the more 'important' solo piano pieces of the 20th century

The Sonata for Flute, Oboe, Cello and Harpsichord - sounding very serial but further developing the 'set theory' of intervals grouped as material in lieu of serial organization, is 'neoclassical' and again always has a lyric quality.

Certainly, the later vocabulary of that Double Concerto for piano, harpsichord and several ensembles was, for a while, the high watermark of 'the most difficult work to perform.' Multiple tempi for the various groups (requiring several conductors), a generally demanding level of virtuosity on all the players, and the density of the independent lines sometimes astonishing (this is "the new complexity," before it was so atrociously labeled.)

I recommend also the somewhat earlier Duo for Violin and Piano. Carter said he seemed to alternate between composing a highly organized and ordered piece, and the following piece tended to be one much more freely conceived. The Duo is one of those freely conceived. I find it very 'listenable.'

What I like and admire as a listener, is in the highly structured / ordered music as well is a feeling that as steeply technical as this sort of composing is -- it is still pliable in the composer's hands and at the service of being somehow 'expressive.' That, I think is a standard we hold the greats of the past up to, and Mr. Carter so often meets that standard.


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## BurningDesire

I like his first String Quartet alot, and the Symphony of Three Orchestras of course. I still haven't been convinced by his Double Concerto though. Alot of that piece is just totally incomprehensible to me, like mutilated parody of Varese. Honestly, I really want to like Carter's music, because I love his approach to writing, his interests in drama in music, and the fact that he's kinda a disciple of the great Charles Ives (one of my favorites), and likewise I kinda don't want to like Babbitt as much as I do because of alot of the stupid, ignorant things he said, and his elitist mentality, and the heavily intellectual approach which doesn't impress me much (just personal opinion), but I really enjoy alot of Babbitt's music, and alot of Carter's is just really hard to listen to, tbh. Plus I think he's somewhat critically over-rated.

edit: I will say that I would like to hear more of his music, if those who adore it have any suggestions (I know he's written quite alot of music). I also enjoyed his Night Fantasies, and I generally like colorful and dramatic music. By color, I refer to pieces that generally have very rich and expressive use of timbre and harmony, and by drama, I mean emotional drive in some manner, whether it be intense, bombastic anger, or triumphant pride, or deep, serious contemplations, insurmountable sorrow and tragedy, quiet happiness, etc. That's probably vague as hell, but it's the best way I can describe what I generally enjoy most in music. Also, I tend to prefer music written using modes, or with some repeated material (continuity to latch onto). I'm pretty sure there's little of Carter's music outside the early tonal stuff that uses modes, but if you guys know any of his music where he manipulates his sets in a way where they behave like modes, that may be a good way for me to grow into understanding what he's doing (in a listening way, I understand the technical things more or less) in things like his double concerto and the second String Quartet.


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## arpeggio

The one late work I really enjoy is his _Clarinet Concerto_ (1996).

As far as the Quartets, I really like the new recordings of with the Pacifica Quartet on Naxos.


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## millionrainbows

pendereckiobsessed said:


> So what do you love about his music?


1.) I love its mystery; 2.) and the sheer sound of it; 3.) and its individualism.

The other American corollaries who comes to mind are Charles Ives, Carl Ruggles, Henry Cowell, and Roger Sessions. Ives was virtually "alone in the wilderness," as were Ruggles and Cowell.

Sessions has been criticized for being too aloof, too insular. How Elliott Carter escaped this label, I have not thought through yet. So this "individualism" of Ives, Ruggles, Cowell, Sessions, and Carter I see as being very "American" as well.

"Tertiary" (thirds) was mentioned earlier; and this is part of the "sheer sound" and harmonic lushness of much of Carter's music, while at the same time it shares much 'gnarliness' with serialism.

This is a result, I feel, of Carter accessing the same materials and possibilities as serialists, namely set theory and all the myriad possibilities of 2-through-12-note combinations (listed methodically as an index in the back of Allen Forte's "The Structure of Atonal Music"), but approaching this "enormous room" in a very individual, idiosyncratic way. I have not yet explored this aspect of Carter's working methods, except for some reading about "metric modulation."

Oh, yes: and I love the way he spells his name, with 2 l's and 2 t's.


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## starthrower

I can't remember a note of Carter's music after listening to a piece. It's like listening to a conversation in a foreign language. I don't understand the content, but I'm hearing the complicated rhythms and dense harmonies. I'm also not really aware of some of the complex structures of these works without reading the notes.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> I can't remember a note of Carter's music after listening to a piece. It's like listening to a conversation in a foreign language. I don't understand the content, but I'm hearing the complicated rhythms and dense harmonies. I'm also not really aware of some of the complex structures of these works without reading the notes.


That's the mystery I was talking about. The Greeks must have felt the same way when looking at the stars.

Meanwhile, back on the ranch: "A bull? Hell, I don't see no bull!"


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## Guest

Sad news: he passed away today at age 103. I hope I live that long and productively!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...9c4e8c-c5da-11df-94e1-c5afa35a9e59_story.html


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## Vaneyes

R.I.P. Elliott Carter
View attachment 9555


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## Guest

He certainly enjoyed pushing musicians to the limit!


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## Vaneyes

A Guide to Elliott Carter's Music (The Guardian, Apr. 2012) -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2012/apr/30/guide-contemporary-music-elliott-carter


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## aleazk

BurningDesire said:


> I like his first String Quartet alot, and the Symphony of Three Orchestras of course. I still haven't been convinced by his Double Concerto though. Alot of that piece is just totally incomprehensible to me, like mutilated parody of Varese. Honestly, I really want to like Carter's music, because I love his approach to writing, his interests in drama in music, and the fact that he's kinda a disciple of the great Charles Ives (one of my favorites), and likewise I kinda don't want to like Babbitt as much as I do because of alot of the stupid, ignorant things he said, and his elitist mentality, and the heavily intellectual approach which doesn't impress me much (just personal opinion), but I really enjoy alot of Babbitt's music, and alot of Carter's is just really hard to listen to, tbh. Plus I think he's somewhat critically over-rated.
> 
> edit: I will say that I would like to hear more of his music, if those who adore it have any suggestions (I know he's written quite alot of music). I also enjoyed his Night Fantasies, and I generally like colorful and dramatic music. By color, I refer to pieces that generally have very rich and expressive use of timbre and harmony, and by drama, I mean emotional drive in some manner, whether it be intense, bombastic anger, or triumphant pride, or deep, serious contemplations, insurmountable sorrow and tragedy, quiet happiness, etc. That's probably vague as hell, but it's the best way I can describe what I generally enjoy most in music. Also, I tend to prefer music written using modes, or with some repeated material (continuity to latch onto). I'm pretty sure there's little of Carter's music outside the early tonal stuff that uses modes, but if you guys know any of his music where he manipulates his sets in a way where they behave like modes, that may be a good way for me to grow into understanding what he's doing (in a listening way, I understand the technical things more or less) in things like his double concerto and the second String Quartet.


I really, really like this piece, The Oboe Concerto: 



.
I think it has some of the qualities you are looking for. I find it very colorful and sensual. Sometimes reminiscent to Dutilleux, others, to Ives's Central Park In The Dark.


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## Crudblud

Today I am struck by the unity of the second string quartet.


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## millionrainbows

I think it has rich harmonic textures and is orchestrated beautifully, so I feel it is obvious that Carter was writing music "for the ear" with consonance/dissonance and resolutions, gradations of both.I feel a sense of mystery when I hear him, as if I were lost in a big maze or driving down a freeway turnpike, not knowing where I'm going, but being forced to "move with the traffic." So many ideas, so densely packed. Is he purposely trying to confuse me? Should I resent him or should I be in awe? I think I'll decide to like him, and listen to this great music he created, and know that I may never uncover its mystery completely. If I did accomplish that, it would be boring to me. There would be no mystery. That would be like trying to push an "option" button which would make all the stars in the heavens line-up as columns, or as a list. To "clean up" the universe...I doubt that this is the goal of art and poetry, so I won't argue or whine about it. And I think the music is objectively, inherently so harmonious and musical that I will "turn off my mind" and just listen.But please, don't expect me to defend it. Not until Congress cleans its act up, and we have reformed the whole process, and when Citibank stops bothering me.


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## Bone

Crudblud said:


> Today I am struck by the unity of the second string quartet.


I remember when this piece first spoke to me: I was sitting on the back of a bus in Seattle, WA and when I reached the stop i couldn't move - everything I was hearing made perfect and complete sense. I frequently spend time listening to his music, but I've never again experienced the same moment of clarity.


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## Crudblud

BurningDesire said:


> I still haven't been convinced by his Double Concerto though.


Interestingly, this exact piece was the first one of his that I became comfortable with.


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## KenOC

Here's a long article on Carter in The Nation:

http://www.thenation.com/article/172392/magna-carter#


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## Vaneyes

A UK tribute to *Elliott Carter*, June 22.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/jun/07/elliott-carter-music-storms-stillness


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## aleazk

I love the pieces he wrote in his 90's. He seems very relaxed and secure in his style. He has an absolute control of every aspect.
Two pieces I have been enjoying:

Two Thoughts about the Piano (2005-06): I-Intermittences, II-Caténaires. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35yDHn6WEgs,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m-cqwNnEII)

Flute Concerto (2008). (



)


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## jamallax89

pendereckiobsessed said:


> Sure! Any of his quartets, his Night Fantasies, Canon in 3 (in memorian Igor Stravinsky), of course there are other great works of his, but those I listed are the ones I know the best. Happy listening!


That's good. Nice sharing


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## millionrainbows

I'm reading David Schiff's book on Carter (that's Elliott will double L's and T's), and it is illuminating. Indexes in the back show Carter's own numbering system for all the possible triads, tetrads, etc, which are the same sets as Allen Forte, Rahn, Schillinger, Slonimsky, The Guitar Grimoire, and whoever else attempted to list all possibilities, including Allan Holdsworth (although he additionally can visualize these on a fingerboard, and chase them with his fingers as well).
Now I'm listening to the First Quartet with more insight and understanding. It's not rocket science, and as soon as you realize its a bunch of "unrelated" lines, each moving in its own time-space, it all begins to make sense, and then you can apprecate the craft that went into the making of these works.


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## millionrainbows

The Fourth Quartet, now...Arditti (Etcetera). Elicits perplexed reactions from listeners, I might expect. Eloquent dramatic conflicts, lyrical outbursts in the last movement, a dense argument, difficult to untangle. That's why I like it; it bounds across the speaker-field like a force of nature, muscular and unpredictable, glancing at you and moving on; your comprehension is irrelevant, it has no time to entertain your domesticated desires, it has other fish to fry, game to kill, manifestations to unfold. It must be, as a mountain must be, it will unfold as a process of the bigger picture, of which you are an insignificant visitor.


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## Vaneyes

"You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension - a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. You've just crossed over into the Twilight Zone."


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## Garlic

I really like the description of Carter's music as like a "force of nature", forbidding, indifferent, but beautiful. The main reaction I get from his music is a sense of awe, like contemplating vast expanses of time and space.


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## Vaneyes

*Listening to Elliott Carter

*http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/gallery/2013/nov/05/listening-to-elliott-carter/


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## Vaneyes

A heads-up. To be released soon, *Elliott Carter: The Five String Quartets* by Juilliard String Quartet. I suspect they recorded the 5th in the first half of 2013, before Sam Rhodes retired.

View attachment 35796


Re JSQ:
http://www.colbertartists.com/ArtistBio.asp?ID=juilliard-string-quartet&DT=New


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## hpowders

Perhaps this project was WHY he retired!


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## PetrB

hpowders said:


> Perhaps this project was WHY he retired!


Always good to exit on a high point!


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## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> Perhaps this project was WHY he retired!


Not a project. Four of the five SQs had been recorded over two decades ago. :tiphat:


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## hpowders

PetrB said:


> Always good to exit on a high point!


So he quit after Beethoven?


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## hpowders

So they were already in the can.


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## PetrB

hpowders said:


> So he quit after Beethoven?


I we had all quit after Beethoven, no Persichetti for you.


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## hpowders

PetrB said:


> I we had all quit after Beethoven, no Persichetti for you.


Too bad he didn't write string quartets. They might have been interesting.


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## arpeggio

*Persichetti String Quartets*



hpowders said:


> Too bad he didn't write string quartets. They might have been interesting.


He composed four. See my entry in the "Persichetti" Thread.


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## hpowders

arpeggio said:


> He composed four. See my entry in the "Persichetti" Thread.


Yes. I just found out-among his least accessible works.


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## millionrainbows

This is the Carter LP I 'imprinted' on. This is the way I have always pictured him. It's available (sadly, as a recorded CD-R) from Archiv.


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## Vaneyes

A review on the aforementioned JSQ reissue, which includes SQ5.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/mar/27/carter-five-string-quartets-juilliard-review


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## Vaneyes

*Carter*: Symphonia gets the Service treatment. It's easy to recommend a rec. for this one. 

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to...liott-carter-symphonia-bubbles-colours-energy


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## millionrainbows

You gotta admit that Carter pulled no punches, and was unrelenting. The very first part of his Oboe Concerto sounds like the oboe is giving us a Bronx cheer: phhht!


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## Itullian

Haha...................


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## Itullian

Naxos or Julliard for the string quartets?


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## Whistler Fred

Itullian said:


> Naxos or Julliard for the string quartets?


The Naxos recording by the Pacifica Quartet is amazing and is my first choice these days.


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## Vaneyes

Two more reviews on the Juilliard SQ set.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Apr14/Carter_quartets_88843033832.htm

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...d-string-quartet-carolyn-sampson-9205278.html

Itullian, for one set, go with Pacifica (Naxos). The above Musicweb review has a few comparative thoughts. :tiphat:


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