# Help with orchestral music?



## Angus (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi all, I'm a relative newcomer to the wonderful world of classical music and I've really been enjoying piano pieces recently, but I find orchestral music quite hard to get into (especially symphonies). A lot of the pieces are very long and have a lot of variation, making it difficult for me to remember bits and 'play them back' in my head. There is also generally a lot going on at the same time, which adds to the problem and makes it difficult for me to focus on what's happening in the piece.

This may seem like a ridiculous question, but how do you listen to orchestral music? How many times do you have to listen to a symphony before you can fully appreciate it?


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

For symphonies, learn structures. Know what you should be listening for. It isn't too complicated for Classical and Romantic music:

There are generally four movements to a Classical / Romantic symphony.

*1st movement* - 'sonata' form. Looks complex, but is quite simple and very important important. Whole movement is built essentially from two themes, and usually it is quite obvious where they begin. It is in three sections



> In the exposition we hear all the main material: the first tune- or group of tunes - in the main key, then a contrasting tune or tunes in a related key
> In the development section the music is developed, going into several different keys. The music here feels unstable. There is a feeling of tension. The listener wants to get back to the main key.
> In the recapitulation the exposition is repeated, but it changes towards the end so that it finishes in the main key. It feels as if the tension has gone and the listener feels happy.
> 
> Simple English Wiki


In more detailed but less condescending terms:

Optional slow introduction / fast opening theme -> transition passage -> contrasting second theme -> transition passage - > repeat from opening theme / after repeat, development of ideas from themes and transition passages / after development, first theme -> altered transition passage -> altered second theme - altered transition passage -> coda to round off.

Good example - Mozart symphony 40 movement 1.






No introduction in this one (you can tell because it starts quickly, introductions will always be slow). First theme comes in almost straight away in the violins. Transition passage begins at 0:26 in the same way as the main theme, but notice how it is altered halfway through. This goes on until the second theme begins at 0:53. Second transition begins at 01:04 in the same way as the second theme, and is again altered near the end. This goes on for a while, then all is repeated. development begins at 4:05. Notice how Mozart uses the opening notes of the first them as the basis for lots of new material in this section. This goes on until 5:25 when the third section begins, announced by the return of the opening theme. Things proceed as in the first section except you'll notice that the transition passages and second theme are a bit different. The coda here isn't much at all, just a few extra chords to round off, but it can be longer.

*Second movement*: slow. Variable form, which is less important here anyway. Let the music wash over you. No typical examples, but Haydn likes theme and variations (self-explanatory) and sonata form is quite common.

*Third movement*: Minuet & Trio, or Scherzo and Trio, always in 3 time (ie you can count ONE-TWO-THREE-ONE-TWO-THREE along with the music). Only difference between the two is a Scherzo is much faster. 'ABA' form; lively first tune -> repeat / less lively second tune -> repeat / first tune -> repeat.

Good example: 




Listen from 2:14, you should be able to follow yourself.

*Fourth movement* is variable in structure. Sonata form is common. As is rondo form, which is just a main tune which keeps coming back alternating with various other tunes.

Example of rondo form: 




Don't get too hung up on following structures though; remember you are mainly listening to the music! It's just the sort of thing you could note in the back of your head whch gives you a sense of place in large scale pieces it is easy to get lost in.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Which orchestral pieces have you tried?


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## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

I found, when I got started, that *reading about the pieces* helped. Miss Piggy once said she learned to speak French from reading the back of perfume bottles... I learned about classical music by reading the record jackets...

One fine book to read is by _Aaron Copland_, and it's called _What to listen to in music_. 
http://books.google.ca/books/about/What_to_listen_for_in_music.html?id=dsyPycO3GfgC&redir_esc=y

Also, specifically for the Beethoven symphonies, go to the *Leonard Bernstein vignettes*:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4B88699D5E43D672

His most famous such vignette was discussed in my blog a couple of weeks ago:
http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/itywltmt/428-day-music-history-november.html


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Angus said:


> How many times do you have to listen to a symphony before you can fully appreciate it?


There will be symphonies which you can listen to all your life and still not fully appreciate them, although you may have derived some valuable appreciation after only the first hearing.

The main things to do are:

> listen to many performances of a piece

> read around the music, being willing to accept that you (all of us) have plenty to learn and always will

> let go of any expectations of how the piece will be, or "should" be, but, rather, be curious as to how it actually is

> and let go of expectations that you will like it, or that you _should _like it, but, rather, be curious about what your reactions are and why you have those reactions


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Sorry, Angus...I only opened this thread 'cause I thought it was opened by my old buddy 'Argus'...either way, I just went back and read your OP and I would strongly suggest starting with early Mozart and Haydn symphonies; but, the real early numbers. Get used to (but don't expect) starting nice and easy and happy and (in a 3 mvt. symphony) then a slow movement that resolves into a great finale. This will vary greatly as you move along but if you really have that much trouble appreciating symphonic music,...take it slow. 

My question to you is: what is your favorite piano music and why?


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## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

jalex said:


> For symphonies, learn structures. Know what you should be listening for. It isn't too complicated for Classical and Romantic music:
> 
> There are generally four movements to a Classical / Romantic symphony.
> 
> ...


This is very insightful. I will never look at a symphony the same way again.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

My suggestion is...don't start with symphonies. Start with Tone Poems like Smetana's 'Moldau', Rimsky-Korsakov's 'Capriccio Espanol', and if you like that then try Rimsky-Korsakov's 4 movement 'Scheherazade'. The Georges Enescu (Enesco) Roumanian Rhapsodies (1 and 2) are wonderful ear feasts. Tchaikovsky's concert overtures 'Romeo and Juliet', 'Overture 1812', and 'Marche Slav' - 'The Nutcracker Suite'. Piano pieces like Chopin Ballade in g minor, Waltz in c# minor and Polonaise in Ab. Concertos for piano (and orchestra) are good - start with Tchaikovsky No. 1 in Bb Minor, or Rachmaninoff's No. 2 in c minor. Just be curious. If something doesn't burn for you, just put back on the shelf perhaps it will later. Good luck, be curious - I think you'll find your way.



Angus said:


> Hi all, I'm a relative newcomer to the wonderful world of classical music and I've really been enjoying piano pieces recently, but I find orchestral music quite hard to get into (especially symphonies). A lot of the pieces are very long and have a lot of variation, making it difficult for me to remember bits and 'play them back' in my head. There is also generally a lot going on at the same time, which adds to the problem and makes it difficult for me to focus on what's happening in the piece.
> 
> This may seem like a ridiculous question, but how do you listen to orchestral music? How many times do you have to listen to a symphony before you can fully appreciate it?


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Before you get tot he longer and more complex symphonies of the 19th and 20th century, you should get familiar with those of Mozart and Haydn, which are much shorter and easier to digest. The Schubert symphonies 1-6 and the 8th or "Unfinished" are also 
pretty short and not difficult at all . The 9th ,his last, is considerably longer, but it's such a great work you should find it problematical. 
Beethoven's 1st,2nd,4th, and 8th shouldn't be problematical either. 
Haydn's 88, 92, 94, (the so-called "surprise" symphony,) and the rest up to the last,104,
and Mozart's 31 - 41 are good to start with .
Recommended conductors for recordings : John Eliot Gardiner, Christopher Hogwood ,
James Levine, Karl Bohm, Sir Charles Mackerras, Sir Neville Marriner. Be patient ! Repeated hearings always pay off .


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Oops ! That should read the Schubert 9th should NOT be problematical. I left the not out by accident. Silly me !


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Angus said:


> This may seem like a ridiculous question, but how do you listen to orchestral music? How many times do you have to listen to a symphony before you can fully appreciate it?


I listen to orchestral music like I'm going on a journey. I let the music gather me up and take me along. I may not always be able to follow the melody and variations on themes but repeated listening often help. The first time I listen mostly to the main themes. On subsequent listens I may concentrate on just the strings, or percussion, or woodwinds etc. and how they relate to the whole piece. Don't worry if your mind wanders while you listen or even if you get bored. Sometimes (in fact quite often) it takes time, maturity and multiple listenings to really love a piece. Very few pieces have I fell in love with on first listen but occasionally it does happen. I also agree with what Jeremy said"



> > let go of any expectations of how the piece will be, or "should" be, but, rather, be curious as to how it actually is
> 
> > and let go of expectations that you will like it, or that you should like it, but, rather, be curious about what your reactions are and why you have those reactions


Also buying some books that are program guides like Jonathan D. Kramer's "Listen To The Music" can be very helpful in your appreciation of certain pieces. Read the inserts on the CDs and reviews if you can find them. Learn as much as you can about the music and you will find your appreciation will grow. Don't be discouraged if you don't like something. You might like it later and then again you may never like it. There are certain pieces no matter how hard I have tried I do not like. Not liking a piece for me is not the same as not appreciating a piece though.

My final advice is to just listen in a way that works for you and enjoy. If you stick with it something will eventually click. All of us can make recommendations but getting a book like the one I mentioned above would help you not only to appreciate the music more but help you build up an essential library of some of the best classical music ever written and give you something to build on. I would think you could find a copy of Kramer's book used online for less than $20.00 and trust me it's worth twice that and more!

Kevin


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