# Singers and their greastest roles they didn't sing/record



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

As a companion to the other thread what might have been your favourite singers greatest roles that they didn't sing/record? A few:

Cigna - Silvana
Callas - Maria Stuarda, Semiramide, Beatrice di Tenda, La Straniera
Sutherland - Odabella
Petrella - Francesca da Rimini, Mimi
Tebaldi - Francesca da Rimini
Arangi-Lombardi - Leonora (Trovatore)
Bruna Rasa - Margherita, Gioconda, Silvana, Desdemona
Castagna - Dalila, Eboli
Gigli - Faust (Boito)
Thill - Samson
Penno - Cavaradossi
Stracciari - Scarpia
Galeffi - Di Luna


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## Viardots (Oct 4, 2014)

Arangi Lombardi did record the _Trovatore_ Leonora's two arias as well as the duet with Di Luna (with Carlo Galeffi), though she didn't record the entire role in a complete opera recording.

Based on this detailed performance history, she also did sing the_ Trovatore_ Leonora on stage:




__





Giannina Arangi Lombardi


Born: 20 June 1891 Marigliano Died 9 July 1951 Milan



bob-opera.weebly.com





Perhaps you need to be a bit more specific about your criteria.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Callas did record Armida, but with the exception ( thank God) of the great D'amor.... aria it is unlistenable. Sutherland did record Esclarmonde, but it was likely one of the most beautiful productions in the history of opera and no one recorded it on video. I wish we had some of Flagstad singing in the Italian repertoire before she hit it big in Wagner. I had a pirated LP ages ago I cannot find anymore where the fat Jessye Norman sang the contralto aria from Oedipus Rex with the power of a baritone... much much tamer than in her video recording after she lost a ton of weight and looked so fabulous. That is the best I can do.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

There are a load of roles I wish Callas had sung; Maria Stuarda, Lucrezia Borgia, Beatrice de Tenda, most of the early Verdis - Odabella and Girselda spring to mind immediately, but also Luisa Miller and Giovanna d'Arco. I also wish she'd given us some French opera. Both Cassandre and Didon would no doubt have been a revelation, Charlotte and of course Carmen on stage. The Wagner role that I think might have suited her is Senta and I wish she'd got to sing Leonore in *Fidelio *again after she left Greece.

I wish Vickers had sung Siegfried.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Viardots said:


> Arangi Lombardi did record the _Trovatore_ Leonora's two arias as well as the duet with Di Luna (with Carlo Galeffi), though she didn't record the entire role in a complete opera recording.
> 
> Based on this detailed performance history, she also did sing the_ Trovatore_ Leonora on stage:
> 
> ...


Anything there's not a full document of is fine. I have heard her excerpts from Trovatore but wish she had been chosen for the Molajoli recording. I like Scacciati but Lombardi sounds more of a natural Leonora.


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## Viardots (Oct 4, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> Anything there's not a full document of is fine. I have heard her excerpts from Trovatore but wish she had been chosen for the Molajoli recording. I like Stracciari but Lombardi sounds more of a natural Leonora.


You mean to mention Bianca Scacciati, rather than Riccardo Stracciari, I suppose?

Scacciati was a leading dramatic soprano at La Scala during the interwar years and was highly popular with the public and quite sought after in Italy. She was sort of a rival to Arangi Lombardi at La Scala in the 1920s. Her voice must have been a very impressive, house-filling, big-sized instrument, with considerable amplitude when heard live in the opera houses. But the boxy acoustics of the old electric recording process magnified certain peculiar characteristics of her vocal emission and enunciation and she sounds as if the back of her throat is pinched.

Yes, I fully agree with you that Arangi Lombardi should have been chosen for the Molajoli recording and I also prefer her to Scacciati for this role, but back then Scacciati was at least as big a name as Arangi Lombardi and thus a major selling point of the Molajoli recording from the perspective of the Italian Columbia company.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Viardots said:


> You mean to mention Bianca Scacciati, rather than Riccardo Stracciari, I suppose?
> 
> Scacciati was a leading dramatic soprano at La Scala during the interwar years and was highly popular with the public and quite sought after in Italy. She was sort of a rival to Arangi Lombardi at La Scala in the 1920s. Her voice must have been a very impressive, house-filling, big-sized instrument, with considerable amplitude when heard live in the opera houses. But the boxy acoustics of the old electric recording process magnified certain peculiar characteristics of her voice and enunciation and she sounds as if the back of her throat is pinched.
> 
> Yes, I fully agree with you that Arangi Lombardi should have been chosen for the Molajoli recording and I also prefer her to Scacciati for this role, but back then Scacciati was at least as big a name as Arangi Lombardi and thus a major selling point of the Molajoli recording from the perspective of the Italian Columbia company.


Yes, of course, sorry! I always muddle their names.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Similarly, while I like Mafalda Favero's Margherita for Molajoli very much, it's a shame they didn't think to cast Lina Bruna Rasa who also had great successes in the role.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Callas as Elisabetta in Roberto Devereux, Gemma di Vergy and Ermione. I think Elisabetta suits her more, vocally as well as dramatically, than Maria Stuarda.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Callas as Elisabetta in Roberto Devereux, Gemma di Vergy and Ermione. I think Elisabetta suits her more, vocally as well as dramatically, than Maria Stuarda.


I'm not sure I'd agree. Just imagine her in the confrontation scene, with Simionato as Elisabeth.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

As far as roles that Callas hadn’t recorded, I would place a studio *Macbeth, Nabucco, Turandot *in her prime, pre-diet. Corelli as Calaf. For those she never sang, *Semiramide *would head the list. A complete studio *Don Carlo *or *Don Carlos. *As for Wagner, *Die Walküre, Gotterdammerung *in German, pre-1953. She was studying *La Straniera*, and that would’ve been fine with me, though I’d plump for a pre-diet date. For French opera, Chimene for sure (*Le Cid*), Cassandre in *Les Troyens*, the more monumental role. A studio *Alceste*,* Orphee et Eurydice*, and *Iphigenie en Tauride *might’ve brought a Gluck re-assessment, though they would’ve had to be well cast aside from Callas. I am not a *Fidelio *aficionado, but if she deigned to sing it _auf Deutsch, _it would be churlish to complain, lol.
Or just the Valkyrie cry!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> There are a load of roles I wish Callas had sung;...The Wagner role that I think might have suited her is Senta.


I've never consired this. I agree! The young Callas not only had the right vocal weight - dramatic but not too heavy - but she was great at expressing fragile and distracted mental states.


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## Viardots (Oct 4, 2014)

Had Callas taken much more interest in *Mozart *than she actually did, I hope she could have performed on stage and/or at least record arias of *Elettra from *_*Idomeneo* _and *Vitellia from *_*La clemenza di Tito*_. Had the executives of EMI/UK Columbia and producer Walter Legge been much more enterprising than they were, they could have made use of the opportunity of the bicentenary of Mozart's birth in 1956 and get Callas to record a recital album of arias featuring the more dramatic heroines from Mozart's operas, including not just Elettra, Vitellia, but also *Fiordiligi*, *Donna Anna*, as well as the one and only Mozart role she ever sang on stage - *Konstanze* *in *_*Die Entführung aus dem Serail*_ (La Scala, Apr 1952), either with the La Scala forces or Legge's Philharmonia Orchestra in London conducted by Tullio Serafin, whose Mozart would be highly interesting to hear (cross reference: aircheck of excerpts from Don Giovanni at the New York Met in 1934, with Serafin conducting, and featuring, no less, Rosa Ponselle as Donna Anna, Ezio Pinza as Don Giovanni, Tito Schipa as Don Ottavio).


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Viardots said:


> Had Callas taken much more interest in *Mozart *than she actually did, I hope she could have performed on stage and/or at least record arias of *Elettra from *_*Idomeneo* _and *Vitellia from *_*La clemenza di Tito*_. Had the executives of EMI/UK Columbia and producer Walter Legge been much more enterprising than they were, they could have made use of the opportunity of the bicentenary of Mozart's birth in 1956 and get Callas to record a recital album of arias featuring the more dramatic heroines from Mozart's operas, including not just Elettra, Vitellia, but also *Fiordiligi*, *Donna Anna*, as well as the one and only Mozart role she ever sang on stage - *Konstanze* *in *_*Die Entführung aus dem Serail*_ (La Scala, Apr 1952), either with the La Scala forces or Legge's Philharmonia Orchestra in London conducted by Tullio Serafin, whose Mozart would be highly interesting to hear (cross reference: aircheck of excerpts from Don Giovanni at the New York Met in 1932, with Serafin conducting, and featuring, no less, Rosa Ponselle as Donna Anna and Ezio Pinza as the Don).


I believe in the 1934 Don giovanni extract from the Met Tito Schipa was also in the cast. I would love to hear the whole thing.


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## Viardots (Oct 4, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> I believe in the 1934 Don giovanni extract from the Met Tito Schipa was also in the cast. I would love to hear the whole thing.


I had a memory error...the correct year of the archeck of the Met Giovanni should indeed be 1934.

The 1934 Met Don Giovanni excerpts are available as digital downloads - bonus tracks in Andromeda's issue of the 1957 Met Don Giovanni conducted by Karl Böhm:








Mozart: Don Giovanni, K527


Mozart: Don Giovanni, K527. Andromeda: ANDRCD9026. Buy 3 CDs or download online. Cesare Siepi (Don Giovanni), Eleanor Steber (Donna Anna), Jan Peerce (Don Ottavio), Lisa Della Casa (Donna Elvira), Fernando Corena (Leporello), Giorgio Tozzi (Il Commendatore), Theodor Uppmann (Masetto), Roberta...



www.prestomusic.com





If you don't want to buy downloads, full tracks can be sampled on Spotify.

(Please note Andromeda's approach to audio restoration can be quite crudely interventionist, often resorting to boosting middle range and adding reverbs to reduce noise.)

Meanwhile, Immortal Performances is set to release its remastering of airchecks of Ponselle's Carmen along with the 1934 Met Don Giovanni, with a different approach to sound transfer leaning towards the non-interventionist side:




__





Immortal Performances


Purchase all IPRMS CDs Here!



www.immortalperformances.org


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not sure I'd agree. Just imagine her in the confrontation scene, with Simionato as Elisabeth.


I agree with you that a Callas/Simionato Stuarda would have been superb (back then of course a full Tudor Queens trilogy, even in Italy, was almost unthinkable). However, I agree with Shaafee that Roberto Deveraux's Elisabetta would have been an even better natural fit for her vocality. That said, had she performed/recorded all three, her performance in each of the roles would have been unsurpassed.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Corelli and Caruso as Otello is the obvious answer to this question.

I second Vickers as Siegfried, but would prefer Tannhauser (it's such a shame he didn't understand the opera). Who has sung Tannhauser well other than Melchior?

N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Viardots said:


> Had Callas taken much more interest in *Mozart *than she actually did, I hope she could have performed on stage and/or at least record arias of *Elettra from *_*Idomeneo* _and *Vitellia from *_*La clemenza di Tito*_. Had the executives of EMI/UK Columbia and producer Walter Legge been much more enterprising than they were, they could have made use of the opportunity of the bicentenary of Mozart's birth in 1956 and get Callas to record a recital album of arias featuring the more dramatic heroines from Mozart's operas, including not just Elettra, Vitellia, but also *Fiordiligi*, *Donna Anna*, as well as the one and only Mozart role she ever sang on stage - *Konstanze* *in *_*Die Entführung aus dem Serail*_ (La Scala, Apr 1952), either with the La Scala forces or Legge's Philharmonia Orchestra in London conducted by Tullio Serafin, whose Mozart would be highly interesting to hear (cross reference: aircheck of excerpts from Don Giovanni at the New York Met in 1934, with Serafin conducting, and featuring, no less, Rosa Ponselle as Donna Anna, Ezio Pinza as Don Giovanni, Tito Schipa as Don Ottavio).


The short answer is that Mozart was the province of his wife, Elisabeth Schwarzkop…


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I've never consired this. I agree! The young Callas not only had the right vocal weight - dramatic but not too heavy - but she was great at expressing fragile and distracted mental states.


She was supposed to sing Senta sometime in 1950 or 1951 but unfortunately it didn’t materialize.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> The short answer is that Mozart was the province of his wife, Elisabeth Schwarzkop…


That would appear to be true and was the reason Callas insisted on recording a disc of Moart, Weber and Beethoven, seeing as Legge had recorded Schwarzkopf in the Verdi Requiem, which Callas considered _her _repertoire.

For my part, I'm not sure the soprano part in the Requiem would have ever have really suited Callas even in the late 40s and early 50s, though she'd have been superb in the mezzo part.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> For my part, I'm not sure the soprano part in the Requiem would have ever have really suited Callas even in the late 40s and early 50s, though she'd have been superb in the mezzo part.


Nevertheless, I would’ve loved to hear it! Legge choosing his own wife for the soprano part was not exactly “fair,” but I suppose by then Callas would’ve been beyond it.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> Nevertheless, I would’ve loved to hear it! Legge choosing his own wife for the soprano part was not exactly “fair,” but I suppose by then Callas would’ve been beyond it.


Certain parts she'd have sung brilliantly but the pianissio top Bb would no doubt always have been beyond her.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Op.123 said:


> As a companion to the other thread what might have been your favourite singers greatest roles that they didn't sing/record? A few:
> 
> Cigna - Silvana
> Callas - Maria Stuarda, Semiramide, Beatrice di Tenda, La Straniera
> ...


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

OP. 123, I just can't imagine Dame Joan as Odabella . I'm sure she had the technical skill for the role, but she just doesn't seem to have the aggressive personality for it . She was too placid a singer .


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

superhorn said:


> OP. 123, I just can't imagine Dame Joan as Odabella . I'm sure she had the technical skill for the role, but she just doesn't seem to have the aggressive personality for it . She was too placid a singer .


I would have thought that too but her recording of the aria from the prologue is superb.


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## Viardots (Oct 4, 2014)

MAS said:


> The short answer is that Mozart was the province of his wife, Elisabeth Schwarzkop…


By the 1950s, Konstanze was no longer in Schwarzkopf's stage repertoire, and she never sang Donna Anna on stage. _Idomeneo _and _Clemenza di Tito_ were then considered rarities and Elettra and Vitellia are eminently suitable for Callas's kind of temperament. Fiordiligi, which Schwarzkopf recorded in 1954 but not yet tackled on stage at that time, could be left out. So for a "what-could-have-been" recital album featuring Mozart heroines to celebrate the Mozart bicentenary in 1956 from Callas, Donna Anna, Elettra, Vitellia, Konstanze could be quite apt choices. Then the concert aria "Bella Mia fiamma" K528, much of which lies in the middle and lower part of the voice and its contrasting moods playing considerably to Callas's strengths, could be thrown in to complete the recital album. 

Great pity that Callas did not take more interest in Mozart despite her highly successful forays into Classical-period operas (Gluck's Alceste and Iphigénie, Haydn's Euridice, Cherubini's Medea-which can also be considered an early Romantic opera). Perhaps she personally found Mozart's roles not emotionally satisfying and challenging enough and thus unable to make the kind of visceral connections she did so triumphantly with roles like Norma, Violetta, Anna Bolena, Medea, etc.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

Op.123 said:


> As a companion to the other thread what might have been your favourite singers greatest roles that they didn't sing/record?


Did Pavel Lisitsian ever record Onegin? or much of anything as far as complete roles go? Discogs takes me to Amonasro, one of the baritone roles in _Pique-Dame_, and Napoleon in _War and Peace_, and that's about it.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

ewilkros said:


> Did Pavel Lisitsian ever record Onegin? or much of anything as far as complete roles go? Discogs takes me to Amonasro, one of the baritone roles in _Pique-Dame_, and Napoleon in _War and Peace_, and that's about it.






Wikipedia doesn't mention _Onegin _in Discography paragraph.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Viardots said:


> By the 1950s, Konstanze was no longer in Schwarzkopf's stage repertoire, and she never sang Donna Anna on stage. _Idomeneo _and _Clemenza di Tito_ were then considered rarities and Elettra and Vitellia are eminently suitable for Callas's kind of temperament. Fiordiligi, which Schwarzkopf recorded in 1954 but not yet tackled on stage at that time, could be left out. So for a "what-could-have-been" recital album featuring Mozart heroines to celebrate the Mozart bicentenary in 1956 from Callas, Donna Anna, Elettra, Vitellia, Konstanze could be quite apt choices. Then the concert aria "Bella Mia fiamma" K528, much of which lies in the middle and lower part of the voice and its contrasting moods playing considerably to Callas's strengths, could be thrown in to complete the recital album.
> 
> Great pity that Callas did not take more interest in Mozart despite her highly successful forays into Classical-period operas (Gluck's Alceste and Iphigénie, Haydn's Euridice, Cherubini's Medea-which can also be considered an early Romantic opera). Perhaps she personally found Mozart's roles not emotionally satisfying and challenging enough and thus unable to make the kind of visceral connections she did so triumphantly with roles like Norma, Violetta, Anna Bolena, Medea, etc.



Apprently Legge did entertan ideas of recording *Don Giovanni *with EMI's three house sopranos - Callas as Anna, Schwarzkopf as Elvira and De Los Angeles as Zerlina. The Cluytens *Les contes d'Hoffmann *was originally conceied with the idea of Callas as Olympia, but her stratospherics were out of the question by then. However I'm not sure such empty pyrotechnics would ever have been right for Callas, whose coloratura was always emotionally expressive. Interestingly, I think Sutherland's Olympia is the best of her performances as the three heroines, and very probaby the best I've ever heard in the role.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Farrell performed the big Casta Diva scene in recital. Said she would never sing it again as it had "too many little notes" but it would have been wonderful to hear what she did with it since she was one of the few with the type of voice needed for this music.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Farrell performed the big Casta Diva scene in recital. Said she would never sing it again as it had "too many little notes" but it would have been wonderful to hear what she did with it since she was one of the few with the type of voice needed for this music.


But maybe, as she herself intimated, not the technique. If she couldn't manage all those "little notes" then she was wise to leave it alone.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Apprently Legge did entertan ideas of recording *Don Giovanni *with EMI's three house sopranos - Callas as Anna, Schwarzkopf as Elvira and De Los Angeles as Zerlina. The Cluytens *Les contes d'Hoffmann *was originally conceied with the idea of Callas as Olympia, but her stratospherics were out of the question by then. However I'm not sure such empty pyrotechnics would ever have been right for Callas, whose coloratura was always emotionally expressive. Interestingly, I think Sutherland's Olympia is the best of her performances as the three heroines, and very probaby the best I've ever heard in the role.


Certainly the alacrity in the Olympia aria is impressive, at least In the rehearsal video from the Met - Sutherland as the most gigantic doll. But I think Dessay‘s two or three renditions on video is worth a listen.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> But maybe, as she herself intimated, not the technique. If she couldn't manage all those "little notes" then she was wise to leave it alone.


Personally I don't think that was the case as she had plenty of coloratura proficiency in arias like Ernani Ernani etc. but I took it that she was lazy. She preferred recitals to opera as they were less work and she could get home quicker. That is a B**ch of a number to sing correctly and if you could sing something else and get paid the same I don't blame her. I would have loved to have heard it but I am something of a Farrell queen.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

I wish we had, among others:
Joan Sutherland in Don Carlos
Maria Callas in Les Contes d'Hoffmann
Victoria de los Angeles as Adalgisa in Norma
Jon Vickers in Fanciulla del West
Jussi Bjorling in Lucia di Lammermoor 
Nicolai Gedda in La File du Regiment


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Personally I don't think that was the case as she had plenty of coloratura proficiency in arias like Ernani Ernani etc. but I took it that she was lazy. She preferred recitals to opera as they were less work and she could get home quicker. That is a B**ch of a number to sing correctly and if you could sing something else and get paid the same I don't blame her. I would have loved to have heard it but I am something of a Farrell queen.


I'm not so sure. There is a world of difference between Elvira's music in *Ernani *and Norma. Leontyne Price was a very creditable Elvira but she too never attempted Norma, and her recording of _Casta diva _is not good at all.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Revitalized Classics said:


> I wish we had, among others:
> Joan Sutherland in Don Carlos
> Maria Callas in Les Contes d'Hoffmann
> Victoria de los Angeles as Adalgisa in Norma
> ...


An interesting list. Some thoughts.

Elsabeth lies mostly in the middle of the voice and also needs a strong lower register, neither of which were Sutherland's strong points. Why do you think the role would have suited her?
Callas singing the three heroines in Hoffmann would certainly have been interesting.
The idea of De Los Angeles as Adalgisa is indeed intriguing, but florid music wasn't exactly her strong point. _Sempre libera _is the weakest part of her Violetta.
Vickers in Fanciulla - yes.
Bjorling in Lucia - yes.
Gedda in La fille - yes.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Tsaraslondon said:


> An interesting list. Some thoughts.
> 
> Elsabeth lies mostly in the middle of the voice and also needs a strong lower register, neither of which were Sutherland's strong points. Why do you think the role would have suited her?
> Callas singing the three heroines in Hoffmann would certainly have been interesting.
> ...


It was mainly from enjoying Sutherland as Desdemona even late in her career - the live recording is from 1981. The low tessitura did not cause her grief. 

Sutherland would hopefully score points like the climax to 'Tu che le vanita/ Toi qui sus le néant', where many sopranos thin out pretty alarmingly.

If Elisabeth is too outlandish, perhaps a very young Sutherland could have sung Adalgisa as well as Clothilde and later Norma: a Callas/Sutherland/Corelli/Serafin/Legge recording during the blink-and-you'll-miss-it time Sutherland was on EMI's books.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Revitalized Classics said:


> If Elisabeth is too outlandish, perhaps a very young Sutherland could have sung Adalgisa as well as Clothilde and later Norma: a Callas/Sutherland/Corelli/Serafin/Legge recording during the blink-and-you'll-miss-it time Sutherland was on EMI's books.


I've always thought that would have been wonderful. The pairing of Callas and Sutherland at that time would surely have been closer to the Pasta/Grisi pairing of the first performance.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Farrell performed the big Casta Diva scene in recital. Said she would never sing it again as it had "too many little notes" but it would have been wonderful to hear what she did with it since she was one of the few with the type of voice needed for this music.


Nilsson said exactly the same thing when Norma was suggested to her. Of the two singers, Farrell would have done it better. Nilsson's voice was all wrong for Bellini.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

ColdGenius said:


> Wikipedia doesn't mention _Onegin _in Discography paragraph.


Thanks so much--I'll hope that someday a broadcast of the whole thing will turn up--

When I watched the Lisitsian video, YouTube pointed me to this live recording of the end of a Kirov performance in 1963 with Georg Ots, and Teresa Stratas being just great as Tatiana--






so that gives me something else to hope for. 😉


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

ewilkros said:


> Thanks so much--I'll hope that someday a broadcast of the whole thing will turn up--
> 
> When I watched the Lisitsian video, YouTube pointed me to this live recording of the end of a Kirov performance in 1963 with Georg Ots, and Teresa being just great as Tatiana--
> 
> ...


Rumor has it that Stratas was so much impressed by Ots, that tried to make him an invitation for a contract abroad, but that wasn't permitted him by authorities. I don't know if it's true, if a young soprano could be so influential. But it's wonderful that we have this recording, though partial.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

Viardots said:


> Meanwhile, Immortal Performances is set to release its remastering of airchecks of Ponselle's Carmen along with the 1934 Met Don Giovanni, with a different approach to sound transfer leaning towards the non-interventionist side:


Please note that the Carmen is not [solely] a remastering, but rather a glue-up of the 4/27/37 and 3/28/36 Carmens, substituting René Maison and Ezio Pinza in 1936 for Sidney Rayner and Julius Huehn in 1937 (and incidentally swapping out Louis Hasselmans for Gennaro Papi as conductor). That might be fun, but non-interventionist it ain't.

Interventionism is what is badly needed for the extreme wow that besets first one, then both cutters of the Don Giovanni. At its worst you can't even tell what's being performed. Interesting to see what comes out.


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## Viardots (Oct 4, 2014)

ewilkros said:


> Please note that the Carmen is not [solely] a remastering, but rather a glue-up of the 4/27/37 and 3/28/36 Carmens, substituting René Maison and Ezio Pinza in 1936 for Sidney Raynor and Julius Huehn in 1937 (and incidentally swapping out Louis Hasselmans for Gennaro Papi as conductor). That might be fun, but non-interventionist it ain't.
> 
> Interventionism is what is badly needed for the extreme wow that besets first one, then both cutters of the Don Giovanni. At its worst you can't even tell what's being performed. Interesting to see what comes out.


When I mentioned "non-interventionist" in my post, I was referring to only how the _sound_ is treated when compared to Andromeda's crude approach.

Where Richard Caniell's controversial "cut and paste" patching practice is concerned, it's well beyond interventionist - it's downright manipulation. Not all historical recordings aficionado can accept this kind of practice and personally I find it problematic if it's done extensively and with little or no regard to historical accuracy or integrity. A musicologist and an expert of repute on Maria Callas's recorded legacy, Dr Robert E. Seletsky, who is utterly against this practice, has called Caniell's label "Immortal Performances" as "Immoral Performances". Seletsky represents one extreme of opinion. Yet there are admittedly others who find little or even no problem with it with the reasoning that "cut and paste" applied to historical live recordings is not much different from commercial studio recordings since the advent of the LP era onwards - often the outcome of patchworks of takes and re-takes.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

Viardots said:


> When I mentioned "non-interventionist" in my post, I was referring to only how the _sound_ is treated when compared to Andromeda's crude approach.
> 
> Where Richard Caniell's controversial "cut and paste" patching practice is concerned, it's well beyond interventionist - it's downright manipulation. Not all historical recordings aficionado can accept this kind of practice and personally I find it problematic if it's done extensively and with little or no regard to historical accuracy or integrity. A musicologist and an expert of repute on Maria Callas's recorded legacy, Dr Robert E. Seletsky, who is utterly against this practice, has called Caniell's label "Immortal Performances" as "Immoral Performances". Seletsky represents one extreme of opinion. Yet there are admittedly others who find little or even no problem with it with the reasoning that "cut and paste" applied to historical live recordings is not much different from commercial studio recordings since the advent of the LP era onwards - often the outcome of patchworks of takes and re-takes.


I have also heard "Immoral Perforations".

BTW, I should have mentioned that the Met has a third Ponselle _Carmen,_ from Jan 9, 1937, with Rayner, Huehn and this time Natalie Bodanya on its "Met on Demand" site for a $4 "rental fee" --






Metropolitan Opera | Maintenance







www.metopera.org





--this is the one the Met Opera Guild put out on LPs as a fundraiser decades ago. Don't know to what extent it might have been remastered.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Viardots said:


> When I mentioned "non-interventionist" in my post, I was referring to only how the _sound_ is treated when compared to Andromeda's crude approach.
> 
> Where Richard Caniell's controversial "cut and paste" patching practice is concerned, it's well beyond interventionist - it's downright manipulation. Not all historical recordings aficionado can accept this kind of practice and personally I find it problematic if it's done extensively and with little or no regard to historical accuracy or integrity. A musicologist and an expert of repute on Maria Callas's recorded legacy, Dr Robert E. Seletsky, who is utterly against this practice, has called Caniell's label "Immortal Performances" as "Immoral Performances". Seletsky represents one extreme of opinion. Yet there are admittedly others who find little or even no problem with it with the reasoning that "cut and paste" applied to historical live recordings is not much different from commercial studio recordings since the advent of the LP era onwards - often the outcome of patchworks of takes and re-takes.


In general I agree with Seletsky. However, he certainly was at one end of an extreme. (He totally avoided all IP releases, even those that only present the original broadcast without any cut and pasting.)

IP tends to have better sound than most of the other labels that release material, but I usually avoid their sets which splice bits in from other performances, but the exception is the Melchior/Tibbett Tannhauser since it isn't readily available elsewhere. The only other set of theirs I have that manipulates a performance is their Forza that moves the overture to the beginning (Forza used to be performed at the Met with the overture played between acts one and two, presumably to represent the passing of time between the two acts). At least it was the performance of the overture from the same performance and not spliced in from a different version!

As long as people are aware of the manipulation and depending on the reasons it's done, I think it's ok and those of us who prefer authentic recordings can avoid the fake sets.

It should also be remembered that Callas' 1955 La Scala Norma wasn't recorded complete and so some parts of that recording are spliced in from other performances even on the Divina release. (Hypocritically, Seletsky didn't seem to have a problem with the practice when his friend Pablo did it.)

N.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

The Conte said:


> In general I agree with Seletsky. However, he certainly was at one end of an extreme. (He totally avoided all IP releases, even those that only present the original broadcast without any cut and pasting.)
> 
> IP tends to have better sound than most of the other labels that release material, but I usually avoid their sets which splice bits in from other performances, but the exception is the Melchior/Tibbett Tannhauser since it isn't readily available elsewhere. The only other set of theirs I have that manipulates a performance is their Forza that moves the overture to the beginning (Forza used to be performed at the Met with the overture played between acts one and two, presumably to represent the passing of time between the two acts). At least it was the performance of the overture from the same performance and not spliced in from a different version!
> 
> ...


I think it calls for situational ethics. There are lots of things that go wrong in/with these old recordings that have come to us over shockingly random circumstances--never believe that there's some central repository where they have been lovingly curated all these years, not the Library of Congress and not the Met, where one goes to pick up The recording of this or that. Grampy's basement rumpus room or the Town Dump or some record-collectors' auction list is more like it. And never think that the recording of one random 1957 performance "should" sound better than another random 1937 one.

1. Broadcast circumstances--
Particularly with partial broadcasts--and there were a lot of them where the broadcasts were just look-ins, anywhere from 30 to 90 minutes of a given performance. When the hour strikes, the broadcast stops (Old radio saying: "Only FDR and Arturo Toscanini get to go over"). So for instance in the (outstanding) 1939 broadcast of Act II of Manon with Schipa and Sayão the time runs out maybe a minute before the end of the act--you get the applause after "En fermant les yeux" and then you barely hear the scuffle where Des Grieux is grabbed and Manon's "Ah, mon pauvre chevalier!" under the announcer's hurried signoff. This broadcast has long been circulating and I believe in every case those few seconds have been spliced in from one of Sayão's Met broadcasts. Same thing with the 1936 SF Walküre Act II with Lehman, Flagstad, Melchior and Schorr, cond. Reiner. You get to the last minute of Act II and Schorr is going "Geh hin, Knecht, knie vor..." when you suddenly get, over the music, the Worst Announcer Ever, Alma Gluck's little girl Marcia Davenport, going, as slowly as humanly possible, "Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..............The....... *Cur*_tain_......... is slowly....... de_*scen*_ding........... and I am *cer*_tain_..............." <Schorr very faintly in the background: "Doch Brüüüünhilde!"> "...... that there is _no_thing that *I* can say............. that would add to what _*you*_ must be feeling _right_ now......... " and on and on, over the applause after the actual end of the act and as far into the night as the still-remaining minute or so of airtime will take her. Again, many releases, generally with one of Schorr's Met performances spliced in at the end for continuity. What else can be done? Do it, and say so in the packaging and issue publicity.

2. Preservation circumstances--
Sometimes the only, or by large margin best, source has been damaged or partially lost. The 1940 Lakmé with Pons, Pinza, and Tokatyan survives from very good NBC linechecks and some home recordist's poorish airchecks. The last 15 minute or so of Act I, with extended exposure for the tenor, is missing from the NBC linechecks, but present in the poorish airchecks (which circulated generally before the NBC discs showed up). There is also a 1941 performance in pretty good sound, but with Jobin rather than Tokatyan--and nobody else as good as they were the year before. Do you issue it with bad-sounding Tokatyan and an explanatory note, or insert good-sounding Jobin and never mention it, as the old Operatic Archive LPs did? And how do you handle the several cases where the only recording ("so far", which means after more than half a century of searching by broadcast collectors) of an early Met broadcast was taken down off-air by a home recordist with only one cutting turntable, so that every seven to 15 minutes 15-30 seconds of music are missed while they turn the disc over or put on a blank one? Do you plug in from other performances, as random as circumstances may compel, so the screwy continuity won't drive everybody bats? Also occurring: the home recordist takes down only what was necessary to fill in music not covered in his Potted-Ring (or abridged Tannhäuser or Tristan, or whatever). Do you do a pasteup that's half HMV studio recordings, half bad-sounding Met broadcast?

3. Performance mishaps--

Do you fix Martinelli's crack in the 1941 Celeste Aida? MIlanov's bad entrance and catch-up in the 1952 (I think) Forza "Son giunta" (before "Madre, pietosa Vergine")? Auto-tune Erna Berger's badly flatted very high final note in an otherwise superb "Grossmächtige Prinzessin" in the live 1935 Ariadne auf Naxos (Urtext, harder on the Zerbinetta)? Fix any of Schorr's many mishaps on the held high G just before "Hojotoho"? (The 1936 SF Walküre above is particularly bad, and you've already fiddled with the act end, so why not?)

4. Surface noise--
If it can be done without making, say, the orchestra sound like a Moog synthesizer, do it. It should be done so that it isn't noticable that it has been done, and that can require micro-surgery, tick-by-tick, and not just clicking "go" on some software's dropdown menu. (And on another tack: Don't try to "bring the voices forward" by dampening the orchestra to nothing. And forget your delusion that everything should sound like it's being played by the 1948 GE ceramic cartridge on your momma's imitation-mahogany 1949 Philco credenza model).

5. "I just don't like Margaret Halstead, so I'll plug in somebody else"--

Just beyond the pale. Though I wish somebody would do it with Delia Rigal in the 1950 Don Carlo with Bjoerling.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Renée Fleming - Marie / Marietta


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I feel robbed that she was standing right there and, depending upon the story you heard, said no to Gian Carlo Menotti to play his Magda Sorel in "The Consul" for which La Divina would have been "la divine".
Either she was about to but it was at La Scala where it was proposed by Menotti and Ghiringhelli put the kybosh on it, OR: that she herself said she doesn't like doing operas in English and refused, much to the frustration of Menotti.
I guess we'll never know the real story but she would have knocked it out of the ballpark.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> I feel robbed that she was standing right there and, depending upon the story you heard, said no to Gian Carlo Menotti to play his Magda Sorel in "The Consul" for which La Divina would have been "la divine".
> Either she was about to but it was at La Scala where it was proposed by Menotti and Ghiringhelli put the kybosh on it, OR: that she herself said she doesn't like doing operas in English and refused, much to the frustration of Menotti.
> I guess we'll never know the real story but she would have knocked it out of the ballpark.


She didn't much like twentieth century opera and wasn't even that enamoured with Puccini. Walton also wanted her for his *Troilus and Cressida *but she had no interest in that either.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> She didn't much like twentieth century opera and wasn't even that enamoured with Puccini. Walton also wanted her for his *Troilus and Cressida *but she had no interest in that either.


I’ve read that she was offered Prokofiev’s The Fiery Angel as well.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

nina foresti said:


> I feel robbed that she was standing right there and, depending upon the story you heard, said no to Gian Carlo Menotti to play his Magda Sorel in "The Consul" for which La Divina would have been "la divine".
> Either she was about to but it was at La Scala where it was proposed by Menotti and Ghiringhelli put the kybosh on it, OR: that she herself said she doesn't like doing operas in English and refused, much to the frustration of Menotti.
> I guess we'll never know the real story but she would have knocked it out of the ballpark.


She would have been interesting in any role, no doubt, but her art was rooted in 18th and 19th century classicism and bel canto, not only musically but even dramatically. She preferred a more classical, highly stylized kind of acting, as we can see from her Medea or Imogene clips. Her gestures were often likened to those of a Ballerina.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> I feel robbed that she was standing right there and, depending upon the story you heard, said no to Gian Carlo Menotti to play his Magda Sorel in "The Consul" for which La Divina would have been "la divine".
> Either she was about to but it was at La Scala where it was proposed by Menotti and Ghiringhelli put the kybosh on it, OR: that she herself said she doesn't like doing operas in English and refused, much to the frustration of Menotti.
> I guess we'll never know the real story but she would have knocked it out of the ballpark.


Menotti told Ghiringhelli that he wanted Callas but Ghiringhelli said only if she came as a”guest artist,” which Callas refused. She said “I will sing at La Scalla and Ghiringhelli will pay!”
Callas refused the role, anyway, as she didn’t sing modern opera.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

MAS said:


> Menotti told Ghiringhelli that he wanted Callas but Ghiringhelli said only if she came as a”guest artist,” which Callas refused.


Did they do the opera without her? If so, with whom?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ewilkros said:


> Did they do the opera without her? If so, with whom?


Yes they did. It was in January 1951 and Clara Petrella played Magda.

Callas didn't have to wait long. She opened the following season in *I Vespri Siciliani* as a permanent member of the company.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Yes they did. It was in January 1951 and Clara Petrella played Magda.
> 
> Callas didn't have to wait long. She opened the following season in *I Vespri Siciliani* as a permanent member of the company.


Thanks; if Petrella, then I'm guessing they did _Consul_ in Italian.

Speaking of V_espri_ at the Scala and recordings that didn't get made:

OPERAS: Urania has just signed the chorus and orchestra of Milan's La Scala Opera to an exclusive recording contract and will shortly introduce its first schedule of complete opera recordings. Works to be released include "La Forza del Destino," "Don Pasquale," "Don Carlos", "La Gioconda," "Mefistofele" and "The Sicilian Vespers".

NYT 7/27/1952, p. 6 X, item in column "News Notes"

[ouch.]



Spoiler: link to Times item (paywall)






https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1952/07/27/93382740.pdf?pdf_redirect=true&ip=0


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ewilkros said:


> Thanks; if Petrella, then I'm guessing they did _Consul_ in Italian.
> 
> Speaking of V_espri_ at the Scala and recordings that didn't get made:
> 
> ...


I can't link to the article as I am not a subscriber, but didn't Legge sign La Scala to an exclusive recording contract with EMI in 1953? Almost all Callas's complete opera recordings after the 1953 *I Puritani *until the 1960 *Norma *were made under the aegis of La Scala. The only exceptions being her first recording of *Lucia di Lammermoor*, recorded in 1953 before *I Puritani*, but released after it, the second stereo set of the same opera, made in London in 1959 with the Philharmonia and the 1957 *Il Barbiere di Siviglia*, which was also recorded in London with the Philharmonia.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I can't link to the article as I am not a subscriber, but didn't Legge sign La Scala to an exclusive recording contract with EMI in 1953? Almost all Callas's complete opera recordings after the 1953 *I Puritani *until the 1960 *Norma *were made under the aegis of La Scala. The only exceptions being her first recording of *Lucia di Lammermoor*, recorded in 1953 before *I Puritani*, but released after it, the second stereo set of the same opera, made in London in 1959 with the Philharmonia and the 1957 *Il Barbiere di Siviglia*, which was also recorded in London with the Philharmonia.


Yes, but this was the summer of 195*2*, presumably before anything had been signed between Scala & Columbia/EMI. In the event there was a Scala _Don Pasquale_ on Urania--Gatta, A. Lazzari, Poli, Corena/La Rosa Parodi--









Gaetano Donizetti, Armando La Rosa Parodi, Professori D'Orchestra & Artisti Del Coro Of La Scala, Milan, Dora Gatta, Afro Poli, Agostino Lazzari, Fernando Corena - Don Pasquale


View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the Vinyl release of "Don Pasquale" on Discogs.




www.discogs.com





--a Scala _Forza_--Pirazzini, Guerini, Campora, Colzani, Modesti, Corena/La Rosa Parodi--









Verdi - Adriana Guerrini, Miriam Pirazzini, Giuseppe Campora, Anselmo Colzani, Fernando Corena, Giuseppe Modesti With Professori D'Orchestra And Artisti Del Coro Of La Scala - La Forza Del Destino


View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the Vinyl release of "La Forza Del Destino" on Discogs.




www.discogs.com





--a Scala _Mefistofele_--Neri, Poggi, Noli, Dall'Argine/Capuana--









Arrigo Boito, Simona Dall'Argine, Rosetta Noli, Ebe Ticozzi, Gianni Poggi, Gino Del Signore, Giulio Neri - Mefistofele


Explore songs, recommendations, and other album details for Mefistofele by Arrigo Boito, Simona Dall'Argine, Rosetta Noli, Ebe Ticozzi, Gianni Poggi, Gino Del Signore, Giulio Neri. Compare different versions and buy them all on Discogs.




www.discogs.com





but no _Don Carlo_ or _Vespri_--so tiny Urania was as good as its publicity in the NYT item, as far as it went, until... what? Legge came a-knocking?


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

ewilkros said:


> ... In the event there was a Scala _Don Pasquale_ on Urania [etc]


--also a Scala Gioconda--Corridori, Campora, Colzani, Pirazzini, Corena/La Rosa Parodi









Ponchielli, Anita Corridori, Fernando Corena, Giuseppe Campora, Rina Cavallari, Miriam Pirazzini, Anselmo Colzani, Professori d'Orchestra, Artisti del Coro della Scala - La Gioconda


Explore songs, recommendations, and other album details for La Gioconda by Ponchielli, Anita Corridori, Fernando Corena, Giuseppe Campora, Rina Cavallari, Miriam Pirazzini, Anselmo Colzani, Professori d'Orchestra, Artisti del Coro della Scala. Compare different versions and buy them all on Discogs.




www.discogs.com


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## toasino (Jan 3, 2022)

The Conte said:


> I agree with you that a Callas/Simionato Stuarda would have been superb (back then of course a full Tudor Queens trilogy, even in Italy, was almost unthinkable). However, I agree with Shaafee that Roberto Deveraux's Elisabetta would have been an even better natural fit for her vocality. That said, had she performed/recorded all three, her performance in each of the roles would have been unsurpassed.
> 
> N.


I do not think Stuarda would have been a good role for Callas, as her voice was not beautiful enough for that role, especially after hearing Caballe, Sills and Sutherland as Maria. Callas would have been great as Elizabeth in Stuarda and Roberto Deveraux. Mariella Devia was a great Maria Stuarda as well.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

toasino said:


> I do not think Stuarda would have been a good role for Callas, as her voice was not beautiful enough for that role, especially after hearing Caballe, Sills and Sutherland as Maria. Callas would have been great as Elizabeth in Stuarda and Roberto Deveraux. Mariella Devia was a great Maria Stuarda as well.


If Mariella Devia had a beautiful enough voice for Maria Stuarda Callas would have sung it like Tebaldi.


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