# Impressionism and beyond



## psicorp (Mar 25, 2007)

I'm a big fan of later classical music, especially those who have weird themes and more experimental in nature compared to earlier classical.
Are there any people out there who feel the same?

Personally I like Stravinsky, Wagner, Ravel, Debussy and so forth.

What draws me to this music are the unusual harmonies, complex arrangements and unexpcted twists.
I do not go with fully atonal usually, but I like Ligeti sometimes.

Some people like it more strict to the rules, how do you feel about it?


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## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

While authors that are considered 'modern' like Debussy, Ravel, Bartók, Vaughan Williams, Rachmaninov and especially Sibelius are among my favourite composers, I cannot quite understand atonal or twelve-tone music - never liked Schönberg and Stravinsky (except the Rite of Spring, which is interesting) much. So I like it more to the rules, you might say. It's only because tonality ensures expressiveness, due to the tensions between the tonic, dominant and subdominant. I know that, for example, Debussy used some other tonal systems, but he somehow managed to make it... pleasant, in a way.


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

psicorp said:


> I'm a big fan of later classical music, especially those who have weird themes and more experimental in nature compared to earlier classical.
> 
> ...
> 
> Some people like it more strict to the rules, how do you feel about it?


Have you heard *Sibelius 4th*? Written in 1910 (3 years _before_ Rite of Spring), it seems very "experimental" and "weird" at first, but the beauty of this piece lies in the fact that despite some of the strange sounds, it rigidly adheres to all those "strict rules", putting the strange sounds into a unified framework.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Paul Hindemith (1895-1963) ... in 1930 his music was tagged as being "degenerate" by a socialist group. Certainly his music has different tonalities and intervals that not everyone likes ... this is one of the few contemporary composers I can really get into.

Kh


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## psicorp (Mar 25, 2007)

Thanks guys for your replies.

I'm giving Sibelius fourth a spin later, along with anything else mentioned.
Sounds interesting to say the least.


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Just had another little thought... not too "Strange or Weird" but certainly worth a listen for anyone who likes *Debussy *and *La Mer*...

There is a Czech composer named *Viteslav Novak*, a contemporary of Suk and Janacek. While he is more or less unknown outside of the country, he is the only true Czech exponent of impressionism. His style is entirely derived from Debussy, which I offer not as a criticism but as a simple fact.

His 25 minute tone poem *O vecne touze* (Of Eternal Longing) is indeed the Czech *La Mer*, sometimes the similarity (whole-tone scales, parallel triad motion...) is so striking that if you didn't know the piece you would guess that it is Debussy.

The story is that of a Swan who is separated from her flock as they are flying over the sea. Tired, she descends to the water's surface, recovers her strength, sets to flight and finds her flock again. Maybe 25 minutes is a little too long for such a quaint little story, but there are some gorgeous "*bits*", as the British would say.

The American version of the piece has the Swan shot down by an anti-missle defence station.


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## Keemun (Mar 2, 2007)

Kurkikohtaus said:


> The American version of the piece has the Swan shot down by an anti-missle defence station.


If only our government was that strict with illegal immigrants....


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## IAmKing (Dec 3, 2006)

Modern/Contemporary classical music is wonderful. A few favourite composers:

Olivier Messiaen
Bela Bartok
Stravinsky
Edgard Varese
Frank Zappa
John Zorn
Gyorgi Ligeti
John Cage
Steve Reich
Webern
Pierre Boulez
Sibelius
Iannis Xenakis
Morton Feldman
Leonard Bernstein
Debussy
John Tavener
Shostakovich
etc.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

> What draws me to this music are the unusual harmonies, complex arrangements and unexpcted twists.


That's exactly what drove me into Prokofiev at the time I didn't listen to 20th century composers at all. I think this was mostly for his _sharpened _piano writting.


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## Guest (May 2, 2007)

IAmKing said


> Modern/Contemporary classical music is wonderful.


Indeed. A nice list he's got there, too. Here's some chicks to go with all those guys:

Alice Shields
Sofia Gubaidulina
Galina Ustvolskaya
Joan Tower
Michele Bokanowski
Pauline Oliveros
Eliane Radigue
Natasha Barrett
Monique Jean
Christina Kubisch
Roxanne Turcotte
Virginia Anderson
Diamanda Galas
Joan LaBarbara
Libby Larson
Francoise Barriere

Only three of these are you likely to hear at a symphony concert--Libby Larson, Joan Tower, and Sofia Gubaidulina. The others are either electroacoustic composers and/or do their own live shows. Pauline plays all the time all over. Christina does installations. And so forth.


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## zlya (Apr 9, 2007)

Try Verklarte Nacht. Don't think of it as Schoenberg. It's distinctly tonal but it's got gorgeous chromaticism and beautiful yet nonstandard harmony. I found it hard to reconcile with the sometimes inaccessible serialism for which Schoenberg is famous.


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## Guest (May 2, 2007)

_Verklärte Nacht_ is certainly fine, but I think _Pelleas und Melisande_ (opus 5 to Nacht's opus 4) is just as good or better.

As for how they compare to the later stuff, well, the later stuff is better. I certainly disagree with Zyla that it's hard to reconcile the earlier pieces with the later. I think you can hear that they're all by Schoenberg. All accessible, too, if you've got the ears for 'em!

(The Boulez two cd budget set on Ultima of Pelleas und Melisande, Variations, Violin Concerto, and Piano Concerto is a good buy. It gives you a nice spread from early to late, so you can hear for yourself if his style is recognizable throughout. )


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

some guy said:


> Only three of these are you likely to hear at a symphony concert--Libby Larson, Joan Tower, and Sofia Gubaidulina.


Of those three, I have only heard of Larson and Gubaidulina, and of those 2, I have only ever heard one piece by Larson.

Actually, it was at a "Conductor's Institute" masterclass in the summer of 98, the masterclass participants conducted a work of hers called "*Ring of Fire*". Ms. Larsen was present and coached us through it _very, very intensely_. The concentration with which she watched each conductor was, well, enchanting.


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

Kurkikohtaus said:


> Have you heard *Sibelius 4th*? Written in 1910 (3 years _before_ Rite of Spring), it seems very "experimental" and "weird" at first, but the beauty of this piece lies in the fact that despite some of the strange sounds, it rigidly adheres to all those "strict rules", putting the strange sounds into a unified framework.


A beautiful work indeed. I feel the same about his 6th and get on well with the 7th, the scherzo section of which is difficult to bring off. They confirm his position as a master of orchestration....still he received a pension from his government just to compose and seemed to take his time doing it!

As for Debussy - Jeux is particularly interesting often quoted as one of the first serial works. Very much the symbolist, a bit of a rebel and opium smoker, his music seems to be about expressing inner experiences, spiritual without being religious.


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Frasier said:


> ... with the 7th, the scherzo section of which is difficult to bring off.


The key to making the 2 "scherzando" sections work in Sibelius 7th is not to play them too fast, even though they are marked *Vivacissimo* and *Vivace*, respectively.

First of all, they needn't be _too_ fast to serve as a contrast, because what comes before them both are the 1st and 2nd statements of the *Adagio* trombone theme, which are quite long.

Secondly, when the scherzandi finish, they blend into the 2nd and 3rd statements of the trombone themes, with a very intelligent melding of the pulses between the 2 sections. Taking them _too_ fast will make the transfer back into the Adagio very difficult.

Last but not least, at a "moderate" _Vivace_, one can still achieve an interesting texture through crisp articulation and well-terraced dynamic balance between sections of the orchestra.


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## zlya (Apr 9, 2007)

> All accessible, too, if you've got the ears for 'em!


Hmm, so only some people can appreciate them. Isn't that the definition of inaccessible?

I'm not sure the later works are better than the earlier, they're certainly different. The latter is certainly more fun to analyze! Schoenberg himself felt that his venture into serialism was a complete break from anything he'd done before--or anything ANYONE had done before for that matter. However, I agree that even his tonal works share a certain clean, adventurous logic with his later work.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

psicorp said:


> I'm a big fan of later classical music, especially those who have weird themes and more experimental in nature compared to earlier classical.
> Are there any people out there who feel the same?
> 
> Personally I like Stravinsky, Wagner, Ravel, Debussy and so forth.
> ...


I see your point. But I like music from different time periods. Baroque, Early Classical, and Impressionism are my favorite periods. Some considered late Romantic in transition to Impressionism I also enjoy. But great idea for a thread. I will look further through these composers. Just realized this is a 4 year old thread but the only thread based on Impressionism.


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