# The sleeping obsession (Der Ring)



## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I strongly think Wagner is obsessed with sleeping...seeing the Ring. Many times different characters ask "Were you sleeping" Wotan asked Erda many times...and she was sleeping (comme de raison)....LOL

I hope you won't be sleeping when you are going to read this...LOL

Sincerely


:lol:
Martin, sleepy


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

That's a great observation, Martin. I think it has something to do with the cycle of activity and passivity, the renewal that is needed for new ideas to flourish, and thus, new action to take place. Sleeping also refers to Nature and the original absolute unity of things, I think. As time passes by, Erda is all the time more prone to fall to sleep; her innocent "pre-fall" time has passed. Wotan wakes in the beginning, just like the prelude of Das Rheingold awakes the Rheinmaidens. Ideas materialize. Brünnhilde is forced into magic sleep and she changes in a major way. Fafner is tired of his life and falls into dormancy - his monomanic greed can not function in the world any more. When Fafner wakes he is still the same ol' Fafner - thus, he must die, and Siegfried kills him. When Brünnhilde wakes, she changes; a new sun of reason and humanity rises over Germany. In the end, Wotan sinks into inaction: he just sits and awaits for Ragnarök. Siegfried "awakes" many times; first through making music in the forest, being thus able to name himself through music; then, through Fafner's blood, and finally, through the sight of Brünnhilde. Then, he begins to "fall to sleep" again; he stagnates, and forgets his youth and his ability to talk to birds.

Perhaps sleep has the potential to be the Hegelian "anti-thesis" to the preceding day (way of thinking, self), if it problemates it and looks at it from a new angle. Thus, a "synthesis" can be formed (new day, new ideas, new identity). But some characters stagnate and thus remove themselves from this consciousness-gaining project of the whole universe (the Geist). In the end, it's up to Brünnhilde to re-establish absolute unity and world-consciousness (she is again part of Wotan and the grand plan of the universe, but now, unlike in the beginning, consciously). This ultimate awakening then returns the cosmos to a sleep-like state again; everything is One. And a new cycle can take place...


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Xaltotun said:


> That's a great observation, Martin. I think it has something to do with the cycle of activity and passivity, the renewal that is needed for new ideas to flourish, and thus, new action to take place. Sleeping also refers to Nature and the original absolute unity of things, I think. As time passes by, Erda is all the time more prone to fall to sleep; her innocent "pre-fall" time has passed. Wotan wakes in the beginning, just like the prelude of Das Rheingold awakes the Rheinmaidens. Ideas materialize. Brünnhilde is forced into magic sleep and she changes in a major way. Fafner is tired of his life and falls into dormancy - his monomanic greed can not function in the world any more. When Fafner wakes he is still the same ol' Fafner - thus, he must die, and Siegfried kills him. When Brünnhilde wakes, she changes; a new sun of reason and humanity rises over Germany. In the end, Wotan sinks into inaction: he just sits and awaits for Ragnarök. Siegfried "awakes" many times; first through making music in the forest, being thus able to name himself through music; then, through Fafner's blood, and finally, through the sight of Brünnhilde. Then, he begins to "fall to sleep" again; he stagnates, and forgets his youth and his ability to talk to birds.
> 
> Perhaps sleep has the potential to be the Hegelian "anti-thesis" to the preceding day (way of thinking, self), if it problemates it and looks at it from a new angle. Thus, a "synthesis" can be formed (new day, new ideas, new identity). But some characters stagnate and thus remove themselves from this consciousness-gaining project of the whole universe (the Geist). In the end, it's up to Brünnhilde to re-establish absolute unity and world-consciousness (she is again part of Wotan and the grand plan of the universe, but now, unlike in the beginning, consciously). This ultimate awakening then returns the cosmos to a sleep-like state again; everything is One. And a new cycle can take place...


Wonderful and rich explanation. I wish I could speak English as well as you do...and also to have the same knowledge than you have. I am just a Wagner amateur, and believe it or not, for me I redeiscovered Wagner after discarding him for a (long) while and studying more modern music. Concentrating mainly in Russian music...and now I am becoming more classic, I adore Mozart and Wagner again (even Webern, neglected by me for a long time). I rediscovered Wagner a year ago. I maily always liked Tristan and Isolde and Lohengrin, but rediscovering the Ring was a big step. I had just one version on CD and one on DVD. Now I bought 4 on CDs in 3 on DVD. Wagner is timeless...The last version I bought on Blu Ray is Zubin Mehta with an extraordinary stage. But none of them are symbolic and they should be, because Wagner was strongly symbolic...We have to "read between lines" many things..and the most important thing is that he wrote the texts. The the music and the words go together and this is kind of magic. The words follow the music and the music follows the text. I don't know any other composer able to do this. Do you? A genious as Mozart had always somebody else writing his texts. Texts in Wagner's case are as solid as his music.

Thank you for your valuable opinion. Nobody else spoke about this, many people thought I was saying banal/trivial things...But just *you *understood what I meant. There was a reason and you saw the reason. At the end, the gods go to sleep...an eternal sleep...Like Shakespeare said once: to sleep to die, no more....And death is a very important subject in ALL Wagner's operas indeed. At the end of Tristan and Isolda you don't know exactly if isolda dies or falls asleep....(it is written that she dies) but the images are not clear in that sense...Does she die falling asleep? Was Wagner osessed with death? I haven't read about his life but I downloaded a few books about his life on my kindle. Until now I read "Mozart's wife", I am reading right now "Mozart's sister"...My next will be (probably) about Wagner. I like to read very much...

Best regards.

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Wonderful and rich explanation. I wish I could speak English as well as you do...and also to have the same knowledge than you have. I am just a Wagner amateur, and believe it or not, for me I redeiscovered Wagner after discarding him for a (long) while and studying more modern music. Concentrating mainly in Russian music...and now I am becoming more classic, I adore Mozart and Wagner again (even Webern, neglected by me for a long time). I rediscovered Wagner a year ago. I maily always liked Tristan and Isolde and Lohengrin, but rediscovering the Ring was a big step. I had just one version on CD and one on DVD. Now I bought 4 on CDs in 3 on DVD. Wagner is timeless...The last version I bought on Blu Ray is Zubin Mehta with an extraordinary stage. But none of them are symbolic and they should be, because Wagner was strongly symbolic...We have to "read between lines" many things..and the most important thing is that he wrote the texts. The the music and the words go together and this is kind of magic. The words follow the music and the music follows the text. I don't know any other composer able to do this. Do you? A genious as Mozart had always somebody else writing his texts. Texts in Wagner's case are as solid as his music.
> 
> Thank you for your valuable opinion. Nobody else spoke about this, many people thought I was saying banal/trivial things...But just *you *understood what I meant. There was a reason and you saw the reason. At the end, the gods go to sleep...an eternal sleep...Like Shakespeare said once: to sleep to die, no more....And death is a very important subject in ALL Wagner's operas indeed. At the end of Tristan and Isolda you don't know exactly if isolda dies or falls asleep....(it is written that she dies) but the images are not clear in that sense...Does she die falling asleep? Was Wagner osessed with death? I haven't read about his life but I downloaded a few books about his life on my kindle. Until now I read "Mozart's wife", I am reading right now "Mozart's sister"...My next will be (probably) about Wagner. I like to read very much...
> 
> ...


Martin, are you cheating on us, Russians? You're speaking too much about "Deutsche Komponists". Gavaritie pa russki! and Come with us!

Nikolai Myaskovsky


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I'm sorry Myasko...I like flirting with many composers...But at least I don't cheat on my wife (sometimes I wish I could).


LOL


Best regards.

Martin


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Actually I have to confess that I've never seen any but Wagner operas, so I'm not able to compare Wagner with any other opera composer! But at least I can agree with you that with Wagner, I get the sense that the music and the libretto are "one" - they are not two separate things, but a single unity. I believe there's a long and over-used German word to describe this ,)

Tristan and Isolde, I feel, is very Schopenhauerian, and sleeping and night are there linked with the realm of ideas, things in themselves. T & I cannot meet or truly communicate during the regulated and oppressive daytime (the world of things as they appear to be), but during the night, they operate on intuition alone, without constraints, and thus are able to contact and share their feelings. This is the otherworldliness that the whole romantic 19th century sought after, the existence beyond existence that alone can soothe the soul's nostalgia for the infinite. But the price is of course that this kind of existence cannot be achieved while still tied to the physical reality. T & I die, or perhaps Isolde sleeps away like you wrote, Martin... or perhaps, somehow, the physical reality around her dies, melts away, dissolves, during her "Liebestod", and we're left with nothing except aether, spirit-stuff, Love.

I don't think Wagner was obsessed with death; I think he was obsessed with the "reality beyond reality", like all true Romantics.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Makes a change from the line 'she is dead'....usually uttered in French or Italian.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Normal behavior (downtime) after all the histrionics.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I have to say that Wagner was one of my first loves in terms of opera...For a long time, I have forgotten him and started with more modern ones: Richard Strauss, Schreker, Zemlinsky and Russians: Rimsky-Korsakov, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Shostakovich...Austrians: Krenek, Berg...But not discovering anything new, I returned to Wagner and enjoy his music with adult eyes (maybe old eyes and ears? LOL). But as before, I don't like Die Miestersinger von Nürnberg...I rather dislike it. Rienzi is "cute".

His REAL 3 masterpieces for me are (the number 3 for me is important), I am really amazed by these:

Lohengrin
Tristan und Isolde
Der Ring des Nibelungen (just one opera for me in 4 parts).

Parsifal, Tannhaüser, Der Fliegende Holländer are nice...

Sincerely,

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Xaltotun said:


> Actually I have to confess that I've never seen any but Wagner operas, so I'm not able to compare Wagner with any other opera composer! But at least I can agree with you that with Wagner, I get the sense that the music and the libretto are "one" - they are not two separate things, but a single unity. I believe there's a long and over-used German word to describe this ,)
> 
> Tristan and Isolde, I feel, is very Schopenhauerian, and sleeping and night are there linked with the realm of ideas, things in themselves. T & I cannot meet or truly communicate during the regulated and oppressive daytime (the world of things as they appear to be), but during the night, they operate on intuition alone, without constraints, and thus are able to contact and share their feelings. This is the otherworldliness that the whole romantic 19th century sought after, the existence beyond existence that alone can soothe the soul's nostalgia for the infinite. But the price is of course that this kind of existence cannot be achieved while still tied to the physical reality. T & I die, or perhaps Isolde sleeps away like you wrote, Martin... or perhaps, somehow, the physical reality around her dies, melts away, dissolves, during her "Liebestod", and we're left with nothing except aether, spirit-stuff, Love.
> 
> I don't think Wagner was obsessed with death; I think he was obsessed with the "reality beyond reality", like all true Romantics.


Night is the inspiration for all romantics...not for Weber, apparently...Weber was an old fashion romantic (I.M.H.O.), but his music is kind of cute...His spoken parts in Der Freitschutz are kind of ordinary...even worse than the Mozart recitatives (I could pass on them).

Sigh/suspiro/soupir/sospiro

Martin


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