# Most significant cities in the history of opera?



## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

Since I'm enjoying the various viewpoints on this forum, I thought I'd ask a question I've been pondering for a while. Which cities of the world can take most credit for the origin and development of opera? Here is my answer. Please keep in mind that I tend to have a historic rather than topical point of view, which is why I can't in good conscience include my own city, New York, as much as I would like to.

Most significant cities in the history of opera, in order. (A work in progress.)

1. Florence
2. Paris
3. Vienna
4. Venice
5. Milan
6. Bayreuth

Other opinions?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Conscience or no, I'd put New York in the top ten.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

St. Petersburg and Prague also of importance, at least, as regards premiere performances etc.


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

I had thought of Prague, for Don Giovanni. Thanks for reminding me of St. Petersburg.

If we add New York City, I'm sure we must add London as well.

I wonder if it's more appropriate to list, say, Dresden rather than Bayreuth? I think it's clear what I'm getting at with this one, but I'm just not clear which city to list.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

My first question is whether Florence should be in first place just because it was first!

I can't help thinking that a more analytical approach is required. i.e. which city hosted the most premieres of the greatest operas. Pre-empting such research I'll take a guess at

1. Milan
2. Paris
3. Venice
4. St. Petersburg


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

Don Fatale said:


> My first question is whether Florence should be in first place just because it was first!
> 
> I can't help thinking that a more analytical approach is required. i.e. which city hosted the most premieres of the greatest operas. Pre-empting such research I'll take a guess at
> 
> ...


I'm all for trying to use an analytic approach. I thought of Milan for the same reason, and I agree that it should probably be higher on the list. On the other hand, these premieres represent a single continuous period of time and are heavy on Verdi, Bellini, Donizetti. The reason I put Paris higher is that (as I understand it) this city was influential in more than one distinct period. If we craft the list chronologically, Paris would show up as a center of major innovation before Mozart, and then again after Mozart.

Of course, you ask a valid question about Florence's placement, as well as Venice's. No easy answers here - but an interesting question.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Nobody has yet mentioned London, which Handel made his home from 1713 until his death in 1759. The capital hosted the premieres of more than 20 Handel operas and orotorios.

After Handel, London was still an important city for opera composers, particularly Italian composers. During Victoria's reign, Italian bel canto operas were very popular, and Verdi's *I Masnadieri* was written for, and had its premiere at, Her Majesty's Theatre, London in 1847. London audiences knew their Italian operas well, and Gilbert and Sullivan paid comic tribute to them in almost all of their operettas.

True, there had been a paucity of great British composers after Purcell, but their was a major resurgence at the latter part of the nineteenth century, with the likes of Elgar and then later Vaughan Williams and Walton, though admittedly not in the field of opera.

However it was in the twentieth century, particularly after the second world war, that Britain emerged as a major figure in the opera world. Arguably the greatest and most enduring opera composer of this time is Benjamin Britten, most of whose operas have entered the international repertoire. Since then we have heard new operas by the likes of Sir Michael Tippett, Harrison Birtwistle, George Benjamin, Thomas Ades, Mark-Antony Turnage and Peter Maxwell-Davies, among others.

London has also always been a magnet for great singers from Handel's day to the present. In recent history, Callas made her debut at the Royal Opera House in 1952 and returned for many seasons, singing for the last time on stage anywhere there in 1965. Sutherland made her debut as Lucia there in 1959, having served her apprenticeship at the house in a variety of smaller roles, but also, surprisingly, in the premiere of Tippett's *Midsumer Marriage*. Domingo, Pavarotti and Carreras were reguar visitors, and so on and so forth.

Amfortas mentioned New York, but I'd say London was at least as influential in modern times, if not more so.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

marceliotstein said:


> Since I'm enjoying the various viewpoints on this forum, I thought I'd ask a question I've been pondering for a while. Which cities of the world can take most credit for the origin and development of opera? Here is my answer. Please keep in mind that I tend to have a historic rather than topical point of view, which is why I can't in good conscience include my own city, New York, as much as I would like to.
> 
> Most significant cities in the history of opera, in order. (A work in progress.)
> 
> ...


how is Milan 4th and Florence 1st?

I would have thought something more like
1) Milan
2) Vienna
3) Bayreuth
4) Paris
5) Florence
6) NYC
7) Venice 
8) Saint Petersburg 
9) London
10) Praque


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

GregMitchell said:


> Nobody has yet mentioned London, which Handel made his home from 1713 until his death in 1759. The capital hosted the premieres of more than 20 Handel operas and orotorios ...


Thanks for the primer on London's influence. I do not know much about Handel and the early period of which you speak. I was aware of Gilbert and Sullivan's close involvement with Italian opera. I have heard much about the rising reputation of Britten. Yes, you make a good case for London's influence.


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> how is Milan 4th and Florence 1st?
> 
> I would have thought something more like
> 1) Milan
> ...


This also looks reasonable to me. Naturally, it is unclear how to balance the early influence of Florence and Venice with the later influence of Milan. But I cannot imagine any such list in which Paris is not in the top three. I believe it has had the longest period of influence as well as the most international participation. May I propose another version:

1) Paris
2) Milan
3) Vienna
4) Florence
5) Venice
6) Bayreuth
7) Saint Petersburg
8) London
9) New York
10) Prague


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I can't believe that nobody has mentioned Naples. It was the operatic centre of Italy before La Scala was built and was the scene of many a premiere by Cimarosa, Paisiello and Pergolesi. It maintained that importance in the first part of the 19th century when Rossini became house composer and possibly the greatest italian impressario, Domenico Barbaia took over the management there. Many of the operas premiered there aren't any longer in the rep, but Rossini's _La donna del lago_ is still performed today.

N.


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

Thanks, The Conte. I never claimed to be an expert - that's why I'm asking for input. All I know of Naples is that my favorite Mozart opera takes place there.

So, if we were doing top 10, where would you suggest Naples goes, and what gets bounced?


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

You don't want to know where most of the premieres of the TC top 100 took place, do you?



You do? Well, here goes.
1. Paris, 15
2. Milan, 14
3. Vienna, 9
4= Venice, 6
4= Rome, 6
6= Dresden, 5
6= St Petersburg, 5
8= London, 4
8= Munich, 4
8= Prague, 4
11= Bayreuth, 3
11= Brno, 3
13= Berlin, 2
13= Zurich, 2
13= New York, 2

I split the Ring into 4 operas.

If anyone would like to research where these operas were set, that might be interesting. I'll take a bet on Seville.


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

Wow! Thanks, Don Fatale - it would seem that the list we cobbled together here over the last few days is right on target with this actual list. Top three in perfect order. That's great.

Of course most premieres of the top 100 isn't the only signifier of opera significance, but it would seem to be a major indication. 

So true about Seville. Yes, in a way, the one city that influenced opera more than any other is Seville!


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