# Which Is Your Favourite Mass Setting? (Take 2)



## HarpsichordConcerto

(Second attempt, technical problem).

 I think I need to do a poll. Cheer up, folks. It's Christmas time. Which of the following great masses is your personal favourite? Nothing more, nothing less; just click a button.

By "mass", I mean the usual setting of (in whole or in part) Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus, Agnus Dei. We include Requiems.


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## Olias

I need more than one choice. Beethoven Missa, Mozart Requiem, and then actually Bernstein's Mass.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Yes, I know. Just a harmless poll for this time of the year when Santa is just around the corner. Really, just to discuss mass settings in music. The Berstein mass is OK, not my favourite, but listenable.


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## Dodecaplex

Choosing between Bach's Mass in B minor and Mozart's Requiem and Cherubini's Requiem . . . impossible!


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## Rapide

Penderecki's Miserere is quite nice for modern mass.


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## hespdelk

Voted for Verdi.. was tied with Mozart's requiem from the works on the list.

I'm also a fan of Cherubini's works in the form.


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## CameraEye

I also voted for Verdi. Mozart´s requiem would have been my next choice in the list.


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## elgar's ghost

I like all that are on the list except for the first two which I haven't heard but my vote has to go to Berlioz' Grande Messe des morts - definitely one of the 'blood and thunder' variety. On the other end of the sonic scale I'm also fond of the gentle Requiem of Durufle and Stravinsky's mass (for mixed chorus and 10 wind instruments).


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## violadude

hmm looks like I'm the only one that went with Faure.


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## Manxfeeder

I like all of the list, but in my headphones, at the top would be the Missa Solemnis.


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## Art Rock

violadude said:


> hmm looks like I'm the only one that went with Faure.


It was either Brahms or Faure for me - chose Brahms this time.


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## Polednice

I haven't listened to them all, but while I love many of them, I unsurprisingly chose Brahms. I'm not just being a caricature of myself though - I think the Deutsches Requiem is a supreme composition; Brahms beyond Brahms.


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## Dodecaplex

Well, then, since no one voted for Mozart's Requiem, I decided to choose it over Bach's B minor Mass.

As for poor Cherubini, well, he's a lost cause.


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## Fsharpmajor

In general I don't care all that much for masses. However, I do like Berlioz's Requiem (Grande Messe des Morts), so I voted "other."


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## Guest

I HAD to vote for Bach, but honestly, I wouldn't be sad to see Beethoven's Missa Solemnis take the top spot. I love both of them, but Bach is just a little better in my mind.


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## GoneBaroque

I voted "Other" because there was no "All Of The Above". They all bear the touch of greatness and it seems impossible to make a definite choice. And besides the Durufle Requiem (preferably the Organ version) was not there, nor was the Berlioz.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Well, looks like Bach's great _B Minor Mass_ is taking the lead so far (11/31)! Nothing more, nothing less.


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## NightHawk

This WAS difficult and on a different day...

The Victoria Requiem is not a well-known piece, but is very, very beautiful. I have the Paul McCreesh recording, which leaves out none of the Propers.

The B minor Mass of JSBach - well, it is one of the great works, isn't it...

The Mozart Req has so much beauty, but is a wrecked masterpiece, unfortunately.

The Beethoven Missa Solemnis is flawed only by its unsatisfactory ending, which seems like an afterthought. If you listen to the 'Gloria' (I have Gardiner's version) you will buy the work, anyway.

My favorite mass was not listed: the Josquin _Missa Pange Lingua_ or _Missa Hercule, Dux Ferrariae_.

I voted for the Beethoven...predictably.


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## Jeremy Marchant

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> By "mass", I mean the usual setting of (in whole or in part) Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus, Agnus Dei. We include Requiems.


... but not the Brahms, surely, which isn't a setting of the ordinary.


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## Polednice

Jeremy Marchant said:


> ... but not the Brahms, surely, which isn't a setting of the ordinary.


Too late! It's already in the poll, so everyone vote for it!


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## jalex

Franz Joseph is putting in a poor show. I think his is one of the better Masses on the list.


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## skalpel

I voted 'other'. Though it may not have as many 'classic moments' as some of those options in the poll, I find myself listening to the Vaughan Williams Mass in G Minor the most and it sets a nice mood and atmosphere. I really enjoy a lot of RVW's works and I'd say this Mass is up there with many of his best despite how often ignored it is.


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## DavidMahler

Machaut should be mentioned in the poll, and aside for Brahms which is not a traditional mass setting, Machaut has my vote.

The Notre Dame mass is astounding, for all time, not just for Renaissance.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

jalex said:


> Franz Joseph is putting in a poor show. I think his is one of the better Masses on the list.


Indeed. He wrote many mass settings during his long career (job requirement). A master at it.


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## jalex

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Indeed. He wrote many mass settings during his long career (job requirement). A master at it.


I'm not so familiar with his early Masses but I have this CD of three of the late ones along with an earlier 'Little Organ' Mass and they are indeed outstanding works, some of the pinnacles of a brilliant career:










I would dearly love to get Gardiner's recordings of the late Masses but my CD budget is stretched enough already at the moment. One day soon...


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## Guest

jalex said:


> I'm not so familiar with his early Masses but I have this CD of three of the late ones along with an earlier 'Little Organ' Mass and they are indeed outstanding works, some of the pinnacles of a brilliant career:
> 
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> I would dearly love to get Gardiner's recordings of the late Masses but my CD budget is stretched enough already at the moment. One day soon...


For a cheaper price, you can get the Naxos recordings - I have several, and they are very nice!


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## Manxfeeder

NightHawk said:


> My favorite mass was not listed: the Josquin _Missa Pange Lingua_ or _Missa Hercule, Dux Ferrariae_.


Josquin definitely needs to be heard by a wider audience.


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## DavidMahler

Machaut essentially invented the mass ordinary, to an even greater degree than one can credit Monteverdi with the invention of Opera.

Josquin, Dufay, Ockeghem, Palestrina, Victoria, Lassus all were enormously influenced, and in my opinion, all lacked the inventiveness of Machaut. 

I would argue that the Notre Dame mass is more important than any work on the poll, including Bach's B Minor mass and Beethoven's Solemn mass. 

I really want a re-poll!!


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## Manxfeeder

DavidMahler said:


> .
> 
> Josquin, Dufay, Ockeghem, Palestrina, Victoria, Lassus all were enormously influenced, and in my opinion, all lacked the inventiveness of Machaut.


That's the first time I've heard that claim. Can you elaborate on that?


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## DavidMahler

Manxfeeder said:


> That's the first time I've heard that claim. Can you elaborate on that?


elaborate on which part, that they lacked the inventiveness or that they were influenced?

Being the first significant polyphonic composer and the first composer to complete the mass, he was enormously influential for centuries.


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## Manxfeeder

DavidMahler said:


> Being the first significant polyphonic composer and the first composer to complete the mass, he was enormously influential for centuries.


Thanks for the clarification. I was having a hard time figuring out how his Ars Nova technique had much influence past Dufay.


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## Jeremy Marchant

Manxfeeder said:


> Josquin definitely needs to be heard by a wider audience.


I agree, but strictly speaking it is the wider audience that needs to hear Josquin, not the other way around!


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## ICHTHUS

Gounod's Messe solennelle en l'honneur de Sainte Cecille


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## ArtMusic

The great Mass in B minor by Bach.


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## San Antone

I voted "Other" since my favorite mass was not listed:

*Machaut* Messe de Nostre Dame.

This work is another obsession of mine (the Durufle Requiem is one, too). I've attempted to locate all available copies and read what there is available on it. I am fascinated by this work, and the history surrounding it. Machaut in general is a composer that I listen to a lot, but this work I consider his masterpiece.


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## San Antone

DavidMahler said:


> Machaut essentially invented the mass ordinary, to an even greater degree than one can credit Monteverdi with the invention of Opera.
> 
> Josquin, Dufay, Ockeghem, Palestrina, Victoria, Lassus all were enormously influenced, and in my opinion, all lacked the inventiveness of Machaut.
> 
> I would argue that the Notre Dame mass is more important than any work on the poll, including Bach's B Minor mass and Beethoven's Solemn mass.
> 
> I really want a re-poll!!


A-ha, another Machaut advocate! I am with you, but you might be overstating the case a bit. The Mass ordinary was in existence for centuries prior to Machaut's mass. The Mass of Tournai, and Toulouse, were likely models for his mass. The distinction of Machaut's is that his is the first by a *single composer*, whereas those others were mass movements collected from several sources and collated together in a manuscript to be performed as a mass setting.

I do agree that until Machaut did it, composers were satisfied to write a single section, e.g. the Kyrie, or Sanctus, and not all the movements. After Machaut, it literally exploded, with as you point out Dufay, Josquin and others writing many masses. Of course we will never know if there was a prior composer's mass that has not come down to us - so much from this period has been lost.


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## Genoveva

I have quite a collection of masses. It is very difficult to say which is my favourite as there is such great variety through the ages, and there are several from each main era I like a lot.

One that I have tended to play more often recently, which is rather off the beaten track in terms of general fame, is by Dame Ethel Smyth. It's her _Mass in D_ that she wrote in 1899. She was High Anglican by upbringing, and following some lapse had recently been through some spiritual rejuvenation having read _"The Imitation of Christ_", written by Thomas à Kempis in the early 15th. I can see how Dame Ethel was motivated by it, as it's a good read for anyone who may be interested.

What makes her Mass in D rather strange is the order of material. It's based on Catholic liturgy with the usual Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus, Agnus Dei. But the order is diferent: Kyrie, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus, Agnus Dei, Gloria. This is partly because she realised that the work would probably be performed mainly as a concert piece, and she wanted it to end on a celebratory, joyous note. It does that, and I generally think it's a great work, yet another by this remarkable lady who is one of my favourite (female) composers.


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## Star

It gas to be Bach but I reserve a top spot for the Beethoven. I lve the Verdi and Mozart Requiem but can't get on with the mediaeval theology.. The Britten War Requiem is an attempt to secularise the text - to bring the day of judgment yo the battlefield. I admire the work though some of it is derivative. A recent concert I attended of it was quite stunning.


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## Genoveva

Star said:


> It gas to be Bach but I reserve a top spot for the Beethoven. I lve the Verdi and Mozart Requiem but can't get on with the mediaeval theology.. The Britten War Requiem is an attempt to secularise the text - to bring the day of judgment yo the battlefield. I admire the work though some of it is derivative. A recent concert I attended of it was quite stunning.


Assuming you mean Bach's Mass in B Minor, this together with Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, Verdi's Requiem and Mozart's Requiem are all based on the (Roman) Catholic Latin mass. At the time these masses were composed, the relevant framework was the Tridentine Mass that was promulgated in 1570. The two Requiem masses contain some extra sections that don't appear in the ordinary mass settings, but essentially they're all based on the same theology. It sometimes surprises people to learn that Bach's Mass in B Minor is an RC mass, since Bach was a Lutheran, but that's the way it is.


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## Weird Heather

I haven't posted on this forum for a while (just got out of the habit - nothing wrong with the forum), but I have listened to a few masses lately and saw this post, so I decided it was time to come back.

I chose "other" in the poll, not necessarily because my "favorite" isn't on the list, but because it is impossible to choose a favorite out of such a large and diverse (one might even say mass-ive) category of music. Mass settings are uniquely fascinating to me. This is a large scale musical form that has been around for an extremely long time, much longer than the symphony. It is fascinating to hear how it evolved over the centuries. Rather than undertake the impossible task of picking a favorite or a few favorites, I'll simply list a few of the ones I've listened to in the last week or two that I find notable or interesting. Of course, if I were to revisit this on another day, this list would be different.

Guillaume de Machaut - Messe de Nostre Dame. I listened to this today, so it is fresh in my mind. As the first known example of an entire, unified mass setting by a single composer, it is of great historic interest. It is also a fine example of late medieval polyphony. If I were forced to come up with a small list of favorites, this one would probably make the list.

Tomás Luis de Victoria - Missa O magnum mysterium. Another one that I listened to today (and a recent acquisition) - it seemed to draw me in to its rich polyphonic sound world.

Johann Sebastian Bach - Mass in B Minor. It's hard to imagine a list like this without this giant of the genre.

Jakub Jan Ryba - Czech Christmas Mass. This one somewhat stretches the definition; it is built around the structure of the mass, but it has a Czech text on subjects related to Christmas. It has a simple, engaging, folksy style.

Beethoven - Missa Solemnis. A perennial favorite of mine, when I want to hear a rich and powerful choral piece, I will often choose this one.

Leonard Bernstein - Mass. This crazy mess of a mass (with lots of other stuff thrown in for good measure) is a lot of fun. I would love to see a fully staged production.

Ariel Ramirez - Misa Criolla. The western classical tradition doesn't have a monopoly on the mass. This one, which is based on Andean folk styles and uses Andean traditional instruments, is quite enjoyable.

Peter Schickele a.k.a. P.D.Q. Bach - Missa Hilarious. Another perennial favorite of mine. It is a good-natured, silly parody of the mass, with words twisted in a humorous fashion and musical ideas that one would never find in a serious mass. The first time I listened to this piece, I broke out in laughter when I heard the brief quote of the Batman theme.


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