# I love classical music but I'm not very fond of the vocal



## fredrik_n (Oct 29, 2007)

I have been listening to classical music every now and then for about 5 years and I absolutely love it, though I have one issue that bothers me - I haven't unlocked the mysteries of vocal music. Usually I either skip the vocals - or even worse, don't buy a piece just because there is vocal parts in it. Just recently I decided not to buy Mahler's 4th Symphony based upon that fact, which I honestly find quite sad since I love his 6th.

Maybe I have this notion that I won't be able to appreciate the singing since it's often sung in a language I don't understand...

What do you find appealing in the vocals of classical music? And what should I listen for to be able to appreciate it more?


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

I don't understand what is sung in any of works of the western canon. Getting the gist of what they're singing about is not a big deal, but not being able to listen to it as a native speaker of the language would, I find, is indeed a drawback. But that does not prevent me from listening to purely choral works, or a choir in orchestral ones, or even opera arias. The music and the human voice(s) singing them makes up for it... sort of. 

I don't know exactly what to recommend to you. But here are a few things that you could check out

Lieder (piano + voice, usually). I'm not familiar with them, but Schubert is supposed to have been the grand daddy of this genre. Even Mahler wrote some lieder. 

Operatic arias: Mozart, Rossini, Verdi, Puccini, Bizet (Carmen) you could check out the popular tunes from them. 

And there are the large scale works: Masses, Requiems, and sacred works based of liturgy. There are also those that are termed secular.


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## Matthew (Sep 6, 2008)

opus67 said:


> Lieder (piano + voice, usually). I'm not familiar with them, but Schubert is supposed to have been the grand daddy of this genre. E
> Operatic arias: Mozart, Rossini, Verdi, Puccini, Bizet (Carmen) you could check out the popular tunes from them.
> .


Schuberts, psalm 23 is great mix! mozart's requiem is one of the best classical works with chorus.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I loved classical music long before I liked the more popular styles, but like you I could not get into any vocal music unless it was for large choir. There's something unnatural and annoying about the so called classical singing style - especially soloists. Even today I have a little trouble with it if there's too much warbling, quavering, and bizarre lip quivering going on. (Never mind that I can watch a rock musician make fearsome grimaces all day without it bothering me.)

Then I finally turned a corner and started really enjoying it -- I pretended it wasn't a person doing all that bellyaching, but some strange electronic instrument like a theremin. Somehow this mental image was more acceptable to me (not surprising given my avatar) and now I can even appreciate a Wagnerian opera, something that might once have sent me fleeing the room in agony. Hey, whatever works!

I'm so glad I made the effort. I can't imagine living without the ending of Beethoven's 9th now.

[Edit: Having the English translation helped immensely in this too]


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

Thats one of the reason's I can't appreciate opera. Even with a libretto in hand, I can't truly appreciate what they are saying or acting out. I can listen to large-scale choral works like Mozart's, Berlioz's, and Verdi's Requiem, Mahler's 8th Symphony, Mahler's 2nd Symphony, etc., but cannot appreciate the solo vocal works like the final movement of Mahler's 4th or lieder's, etc.

To Fredrik: I would definitely buy Mahler's 4th; the solo only appears in the final movement if I am not mistaken. His Resurrection Symphony (2) is my favorite orchestral work out there and it contains a massive choral finale. One of the only reasons I may love it so much is because it is loud, powerful, and optimistic.

Here's the English translation of the final movement of his 4th:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._4_(Mahler)#Text_.28for_last_movement.29

Here's a Swedish description of the piece:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symfoni_nr_4_(Mahler)


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## purple99 (Apr 8, 2008)

Weston said:


> bellyaching


LOL! It's true, singers can be highly irritating, especially sopranos -- for some reason -- who adopt a sugary 'smilie' face when singing 'happy' words, then a face like a smacked a*se when the words are 'sad'. It's toe-curling and for some reason far more offensive than a rock star thrusting his groin at the audience.

When I learned the piano as a child I had a teacher who, during sad passages, used to yell: "_Lean_ into the piano!" I obeyed, feeling a bit of a dick, until I plucked up courage to ask her why.

"To show _emotion_," she said. "To send the message to the audience that they're listening to a _sad _passage and you're _feeling _it with them."

I told my father what she said and -- when he'd finished laughing -- he said: "Stupid woman! Doesn't she realise it's the music's job to do that? And I'm paying for this rubbish..." I don't mean to be sexist but female singers have the disease worse than men, in terms of pulling stupid faces. I suspect they were badly taught so the problem passes down the generations.



fredrik_n said:


> what should I listen for to be able to appreciate it more?


"Listen" is the operative word. If you've an embarrassing female trillster in front of you, grimacing like a monkey on crack, it's best not to look at her.


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

I love listening to music in a language unknown to me before i found out what people where saying in operas they either one made me feel them more.
two hate them.


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## kiwipolish (May 2, 2008)

fredrik_n said:


> I haven't unlocked the mysteries of vocal music. Usually I either skip the vocals - or even worse, don't buy a piece just because there is vocal parts in it.


First, don't worry about it at all. Just enjoy what you can when you can. This is what music is about.

My guess would be that vocal music will come to you slowly over the years, starting probably with works where text and acting do not play a large role, i.e. religious works. At least, this is how it worked for me.


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## Elaryad (Jul 29, 2008)

I'm not very fond of the vocal works either.That's because voice is the instrument that I don't like the most, so it's a bit difficult to get over it when I listen to songs (pop, rock, operatic, etc.). But sometimes I find a voice that I like and specially I prefer a voice that don't go over the other instruments.
I will try to listen to some lieder, on the expectation to like them more than opera arias. Probably Schubert or... I don't know, don't know many 
The choirs/voices on Beethoven 9th and Mahler's 2nd don't do me any harm.
But on a general basis I don't pay attention to a specific operatic singer work like I do with other instrumentalists and the only name I know is Galina Vishnevskaya for obvious reasons  I kinda like her work on Satires: pictures of the past by Shostakovich and with Rostropovich playing the piano, but that's because it makes me laugh.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

I think that the "what should I listen to in order to learn appreciate vocal music?" question is nearly impossible to answer because it's likely to be very different for every person. I didn't listen to any classical music of any kind until I was about 23 or 24 years old. Before that I only listened to pop, rock and related styles. 

So when I decided I wanted to give it a chance I started with works like Bernstein's semi-operatic recording of "West Side Story" with Kiri and Carreras and Rattle's recording of Gershwin's "Porgy & Bess." They are sung sung in English, are related to popular music and there are plenty of catchy tunes that I immediately recognized. Because of all that getting used to classical voices wasn't that difficult for me - I fortunately enough had chosen (for me anyway) the right works to take that first step. Schubert lieder wouldn't have worked for me at the time although I love them now.

I'm a bit surprised by how many people seem to dislike the soprano voice. It's one of my favorite "instruments" now.


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## purple99 (Apr 8, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> I'm a bit surprised by how many people seem to dislike the soprano voice.


I love the soprano voice. I just can't stand the faces they pull. One of the worst offenders is Sofie von Otter. She's a singer of incredible power, at the top of her game, yet insists on twisting her face into weird grins and grimaces, like she's got ants in her pants.

She's too experienced and professional to be _feeling _the emotions shown on her face - to sing as well as her you need ice in your heart - so she's play-acting. It seems such an odd thing to do.

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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Yeah, I see what you mean. Doesn't look very attractive at all. Cecilia Bartoli's facial expressions often look pretty ridiculous too - not to mention Jessye Norman's. Makes me wanna throw a pie to their faces at times, even though I respect them as singers. On the other hand, for example Renée Fleming or Kiri Te Kanawa always look natural to me.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

purple99 said:


> I love the soprano voice. I just can't stand the faces they pull. One of the worst offenders is Sofie von Otter. She's a singer of incredible power, at the top of her game, yet insists on twisting her face into weird grins and grimaces, like she's got ants in her pants.
> 
> She's too experienced and professional to be _feeling _the emotions shown on her face - to sing as well as her you need ice in your heart - so she's play-acting. It seems such an odd thing to do.


Now see -- in this instance (in the link) I don't mind the facial contortions so much as the vocal vibrato, tremelo, or warbling. I don't know the term singers use. I know it may be historically appropriate, but is it necessary? I don't know anything about what it takes to sing like this, but I know all that vibrato is distracting to me. How much more beautiful this melody would be with more subtle vibrato.


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

I'll have to disagree. Anne Sofie von Otter is one of my favorite people to listen to and watch. I haven't read most of this discussion, but don't you think it's necessary to make those facial expressions sometimes? This Erlkönig seems to be a very dynamic piece and I really can't blame her for making those faces to bring out the best sound. Does she do a better job here, in your opinion? 



I think she does perfect.

To be honest, If theres anyone whose facial expressions bother me in this video, it's Simon Rattle. Check the image ..


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Schubert lieder wouldn't have worked for me at the time although I love them now.


Just to drive home the point about differences between listeners ... I still struggle to enjoy lieder by _anyone_ - not just Schubert.

I found my way into vocal music through Wagner, where (or so it seemed at the time) I felt the voice was being treated as 'just' another component of the orchestral ensemble, rather than something separate. That breakthrough led me to Puccini, where the sheer richness of melody overcame my prejudice about the vocals; and once I'd made that transition, gradually I started to enjoy the infinite richness of some of the great opera singers in other areas. Even then, it's only comparatively recently that I've found my way into choral music, and even then again, there's still an awful lot that I can't cope with.

So I would hesitate about making anything other than the most tentative recommendations - but how about trying this: there are plenty of 'orchestral' versions of 'Ride of the Valkyries' available, and very exciting they can be. But to listen to one of those, and then listen to a full _vocal_ version on a 'highlights from _The Ring _' CD, would be very revealing, I think. It may do a lot towards demonstrating to any listener how much is lost, in terms of sheer wild exhilaration, when the vocals are removed.


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Elgarian said:


> there are plenty of 'orchestral' versions of 'Ride of the Valkyries' available, and very exciting they can be. But to listen to one of those, and then listen to a full _vocal_ version on a 'highlights from _The Ring _' CD, would be very revealing, I think. It may do a lot towards demonstrating to any listener how much is lost, in terms of sheer wild exhilaration, when the vocals are removed.


Very interesting. I'll have to try that out sometime.


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## purple99 (Apr 8, 2008)

Weston said:


> Now see -- in this instance (in the link) I don't mind the facial contortions so much as the vocal vibrato, tremelo, or warbling. I don't know the term singers use. I know it may be historically appropriate, but is it necessary? I don't know anything about what it takes to sing like this, but I know all that vibrato is distracting to me. How much more beautiful this melody would be with more subtle vibrato.


I agree. But it's odd stuff vibrato, it's like a drug. The more you have the more you want as your tolerance levels increase. A few years ago La Otter's wobbling would have sent me running from the room. But I think it's great now -- part of a long tradition of vibrating Germanic trillsters. The main thing is to keep Ms Otter away from baroque music -- she'd slaughter it.


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## purple99 (Apr 8, 2008)

Rachovsky said:


> don't you think it's necessary to make those facial expressions sometimes? This Erlkönig seems to be a very dynamic piece and I really can't blame her for making those faces to bring out the best sound.


Ah, but she's not doing it to bring out the best sound. She doing it to provide facial clues to the audience concerning the emotional meaning, in her opinion, of the music. That's got nothing to do with bringing out the best sound. It's acting. Which is fair enough in an actor, but she's a singer.

I think she's making the standard egotistical musician's mistake: imposing herself unnecessarily between composer and listener. So she's insulting both composer and audience.



Rachovsky said:


> Does she do a better job here, in your opinion?


Much better. Possibly because Rattle has an even bigger ego than her and took care to squash her in rehearsals. Plus she's ten years younger than in the Erlkönig vid so has less presence. She was born in 1958 so it's the difference between a 30 and a 40 year old woman.



Rachovsky said:


> To be honest, If theres anyone whose facial expressions bother me in this video, it's Simon Rattle. Check the image ..


I agree. Rattle's intolerable.  This made me laugh btw: look at the adoring way Abbado gazes at her. I don't blame him. She and that performance are explosive.

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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

purple99 said:


> Ah, but she's not doing it to bring out the best sound. She doing it to provide facial clues to the audience concerning the emotional meaning, in her opinion, of the music. That's got nothing to do with bringing out the best sound. It's acting. Which is fair enough in an actor, but she's a singer.
> 
> I think she's making the standard egotistical musician's mistake: imposing herself unnecessarily between composer and listener. So she's insulting both composer and audience.


I see where your coming from, but I actually enjoy those facial expressions in this instance. Without knowing the English translation, I would have no clue what the piece meant. I have a small clue by watching her facial expressions, ya know. Don't you think most singers act? Not just in classical music, but in pop, rock, rap, etc.

The only time I really don't like facial expressions is when the conductor is making them. I adore Karajan's method. Most conductors are so self-indulgent they flop around like a donkey while conducting.


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## purple99 (Apr 8, 2008)

Rachovsky said:


> I see where your coming from


Likewise. 



Rachovsky said:


> but I actually enjoy those facial expressions in this instance. Without knowing the English translation, I would have no clue what the piece meant. I have a small clue by watching her facial expressions, ya know.


I mentioned this exchange to my g/f - she know the piece better than me -- and she pointed out (a) the singer performs three parts in the song -- father, son and Elf King -- so it's very hard to get right and (b) there's a REALLY scary performance by Fischer-Dieskau who's such a bad actor he manages to look like a child molester:








Rachovsky said:


> Don't you think most singers act?


That's precisely the problem.  They attempt to act and few are any good at it, because they're largely untrained. Opera stars are better now but standards are still low. The film 'Le Pont Des Arts' makes the point:






In this extract everyone except the lutenist is an actor miming the song. Yet watch the soprano, played by Camille Carraz, from 1:10 onwards. She's a trained, accomplished actress and it shows. She employs the old actor's technique 'Less is more.' She hardly moves a muscle but the effect is powerful. Why? Because she's good at her job.

Most singers who attempt to act fall into the trap of melodrama. They try so hard to communicate non-musical emotion to the audience they end up looking like spitting image puppets pulling funny faces. But if they'd been to drama school they'd have been told 'less is more' in the first term and had the melodrama knocked out of them. Singers should stick to what they know best -- singing -- or they end up with ants in their pants (La Otter) or on the sex offenders register (Fischer-Dieskau). 

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Rachovsky said:


> Most conductors are so self-indulgent they flop around like a donkey while conducting.


 I couldn't agree more.


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

So are you saying that all singers need some acting skills, or that they should simply stop _trying_ to act and let their voices do the work?

That piece has truly enlightened me to the beauty of the soprano voice. Don't those male singing voices sound so blasé? lol I agree that her facial expressions are limited and it makes the piece powerful, but this only works because the piece is apparently sad.

Yes, the Fischer-Dieskau was quite horrendous, but the piano playing was nice. 

By the way, are you sure that soprano isn't Natacha Régnier.


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

My bad -- Dbl Post.


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## purple99 (Apr 8, 2008)

Rachovsky said:


> So are you saying that all singers need some acting skills, or that they should simply stop _trying_ to act and let their voices do the work?


If they can't act they shouldn't try -- or be prepared to be laughed at if they do. The same as actors who try to sing and obviously can't do it. Music's such a powerful art form -- it goes straight to the heart -- there's usually no need for acting, and bad acting's worse than useless: it interferes with the music.



Rachovsky said:


> By the way, are you sure that soprano isn't Natacha Régnier.


You're right. But I still don't know who the soprano voice belongs to.  Claire Lefilliâtre?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

purple99 said:


> . . .I mentioned this exchange to my g/f - she know the piece better than me -- and she pointed out (a) the singer performs three parts in the song -- father, son and Elf King -- so it's very hard to get right and (b) there's a REALLY scary performance by Fischer-Dieskau who's such a bad actor he manages to look like a child molester:


Equally appropos this thread is the link on the same page off to the side to a brilliant Dudley Moore version where he intentionally overdoes the different voices and expressions. Someone there made very similar points to yours. Sadly, I think this humor would be lost on most audiences where I come from.


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## purple99 (Apr 8, 2008)

Weston said:


> Sadly, I think this humor would be lost on most audiences where I come from.


Why? Are Tennessee concert halls particularly snob infested? Or is everyone glued to the NASCAR with Elvis on the background?


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

Don't make me pull out my stereotypical British jokes.


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## purple99 (Apr 8, 2008)

Rachovsky said:


> Don't make me pull out my stereotypical British jokes.


G'wan. I've been attending Proms all Summer in the company of tweedy Englishmen who respond to monumental high art with a curt nod of the head.



> An American man, an Englishman and Claudia Schiffer were sitting together in a carriage in a train. Suddenly the train went through a tunnel and as it was an old style train, there were no lights in the carraiges and it went completely dark.
> 
> There was a kissing noise and the sound of a really hard slap. When the train came out of the tunnel, Claudia Schiffer and the American were sitting as if nothing had happened and the Englishman was holding his face.
> 
> ...


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

purple99 said:


> Why? Are Tennessee concert halls particularly snob infested? Or is everyone glued to the NASCAR with Elvis on the background?


More the latter - but's that not entirely true. Actually I was the one being a snob. Of course they would get it. Dudley Moore was brilliant.


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## tenor02 (Jan 4, 2008)

What we're not realizing about the facial expressions is-

when singing a solo piece you are no longer yourself, you have to take on the persona of the person within the piece, even if it is an unnamed soul who you have no clue about (ie- it's not an opera piece), so what she is doing is totally exceptable -- especially if you consider what she is having to do to create the correct pitches and diction so that the lyrics are understandable. German is incredibly tough to sing and to have to put it over an orchestra...my facial expressions would probably look like i want to kill somebody too.

by you saying that singers need to stop giving outward expression and let the music do the talking is the same as me saying: Im sick of seeing string players lean back and foward when they play, they need to quit:


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## Bgroovy2 (Mar 27, 2009)

I beleive that a lot of our attitudes twards classic style vocals has been shaped by the junk that Hollywood has been shoving down our throats that they call music. There are very few performers in the pop arena these days that actually know how to sing. The opera era was refered to as the "Golden Age of song." There was a reason for this. The old masters of the time knew how the voice worked and went to great lenghs to write music that fits voice. It's not untill you understand the importance of the "Pure Vowel" that you will begin to have and appreiation for classical singing. If your vowels are formed correctly, the rest of your voice will fall in line. Most people that sing pop music are systmaticly destroying their voices by puching the chest register beyond is natural capabilities.

If you youtube Jose Cura, the first vid that comes up is Nessun Dorma. You have to see Jose sing to understand the power and intensity that he sings with! There is nothing in the pop world that even comes close. Check it out.


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## periodinstrumentfan (Sep 11, 2008)

Claire Lefilliâtre and the ensemble Le Poème Harmonique sang the Monteverdi piece...

Here they are singing it live ...


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## kg4fxg (May 24, 2009)

*Maybe a type?*

Well, maybe it is a type of singing or style that I find more attractive?

I don't understand it either, nor can I carry a tune myself. Some vocal like Handle in like fingernails on a chalk board.

I have several Operas and these artists on CD:
Bartoli
Kozena
Gheorghiu
Royal
Zhang

I would like to understand vocal better but it seems to be hit and miss with me.

As a side note I did spend several years in a Benedictian Monestary. My room was very near the bell tower. Nothing like hearing the monks chant and the smoke of incense rising. The Monestary looking like a medevil castle surrounded by fog.


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## Rachmaninov (Sep 11, 2007)

fredrik_n said:


> What do you find appealing in the vocals of classical music? And what should I listen for to be able to appreciate it more?


Preferably, I'd suggest Argentinian composer Astor Piazzolla and Heracio Ferrer's only tango operita - Maria de Buenos Aires. I don't know if it is regarded as classical but I think the vocals are easy to accept, and the music is attractive to appreciate as well, especially Yo Soy Maria, Fuga y mysterio(not vocal).

You may try it!!


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