# Charles Wuorinen



## Crudblud

Over the past few months I have become increasingly interested in Mr Wuorinen's music; his chamber pieces, particularly the trilogy of _Horn Trio_, _Continued_ and _Double Solo_, are a joy to listen to, as are his choral works such as _Mass for the Restoration of St. Luke in the Fields_ and _Genesis_. Just now I have finished listening to his _Concerto for Tuba and Chamber Orchestra_ and thought it another fine work in his oeuvre, which I recently discovered contains some 200+ pieces of music. I don't think I've ever seen him talked about around these parts, even among the modernist crowd, so I hope this thread will get people interested in Wuorinen's music. His most recent work, an opera adaptation of Annie Proulx's _Brokeback Mountain_, is set to première in 2014.

Here are some pieces you might wish to try. I have selected these from his early 1980s output since I'm most familiar with that era right now.


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## Prodromides

Three CD albums of music by Charles Wuorinen have been with me since the mid-1990s (at a time when Wuorinen's works were championed by several record labels - not least of which was Koch International Classics).

Indeed, Wuorinen's _Mass_ and _Genesis_ were paired on the same Koch album ...










... the contents of which serve as the source for this YouTube clip (one of many such videos which are uploads from CDs):






One of my favorite Wuorinen pieces is "Five" for amplified cello & orchestra, which surfaced on an earlier Koch CD:






Let's hope these recordings reach as wide an audience as possible because contemporary classical works rarely have multiple versions from which to choose.


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## millionrainbows

I suggest that anyone interested in Wuorinen get these 3 volumes, which contain his earliest recordings on Nonesuch, originally released as LPs. The KOCH stuff is OOP, but might be released on NAXOS, as I have seen other KOCH releases. The KOCH cover art is better, though.
There is also some Stephan Wolpe on KOCH, with similar art, and Donald Martino as well, both worth getting.

Wuorinen studied with Milton Babbitt. An advanced serialist, Babbitt was interested in certain symmetrical row forms which allowed greater control of vertical (harmonic) aspects. Wuorinen has also used self-similar fractal ideas. He has a book "Simple Composition" but I'm not sure if these ideas are discussed.

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## hstokar

*One detail...Wuorinen did not study with Babbitt.*

Just to clarify one detail - Wuorinen did not study with Babbitt. That is an oft repeated error (it is even in some books). I have also seen postings stating that he studied with Wolpe. That too in not true. CW was, however, an early supporter of both composers and his ensemble The Group for Contemporary Music often championed Babbitt (and Wolpe).


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## millionrainbows

hstokar said:


> Just to clarify one detail - Wuorinen did not study with Babbitt. That is an oft repeated error (it is even in some books). I have also seen postings stating that he studied with Wolpe. That too in not true. CW was, however, an early supporter of both composers and his ensemble The Group for Contemporary Music often championed Babbitt (and Wolpe).


By gosh, you're right, hstokar! Thanks for being nice about it. I guess my error was also reinforced by Wuorinen's use of the RCA/Princeton synthesizer in "Time's Encomium" which Babbitt also used in several compositions.

These two releases are also well-worth getting. "A Winter's Tale" has a good soprano, Phyllis Bryn-Julson.

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## Vaneyes

My Wuorinen focus is with his chamber music, and these recordings. Piano Quintets and Third String Quartet stand out for me.

View attachment 11294

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## arpeggio

*Improves with age*



Crudblud said:


> Over the past few months I have become increasingly interested in Mr Wuorinen's music; his chamber pieces, particularly the trilogy of _Horn Trio_, _Continued_ and _Double Solo_, are a joy to listen to, as are his choral works such as _Mass for the Restoration of St. Luke in the Fields_ and _Genesis_. Just now I have finished listening to his _Concerto for Tuba and Chamber Orchestra_ and thought it another fine work in his oeuvre, which I recently discovered contains some 200+ pieces of music. I don't think I've ever seen him talked about around these parts, even among the modernist crowd, so I hope this thread will get people interested in Wuorinen's music. His most recent work, an opera adaptation of Annie Proulx's _Brokeback Mountain_, is set to première in 2014.
> 
> Here are some pieces you might wish to try. I have selected these from his early 1980s output since I'm most familiar with that era right now.


Thanks for the samples. I really enjoyed the _Mass_.

I should confess when I was younger I never really cared for this type of music. As I have gotten older I have gotten used to it and I now appreciate it.:clap:


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## rrudolph

With the the passing of Elliott Carter, I feel that Wuorinen is now our last great living Americen composer (let's all hope there will be more).

My current Wuorinen favorite (I love the celeste part in Lepton):

Tzadik TZ 7707; includes Time's Encomium, Lepton, New York Notes and Epithalamium


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## Vaneyes

Came across this article (Google Books link below, which may or may not work. If not, just Google for the *bold*), some may find of interest--*Wuorinen's Bleak View of the Future*, by Joan Peyser, The New York Times, June 5, 1988. Subsequently, she used the article in her book, "The Music of My Time".

I chuckled at Wuorinen's view of Minimalism, which was cranking up then. He found himself unwillingly drawn into it--"Professional stance, not artistic stance."

*http://tinyurl.com/afrcngk*


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## rrudolph

Vaneyes said:


> Came across this article (Google Books link below, which may or may not work. If not, just Google for the *bold*), some may find of interest--*Wuorinen's Bleak View of the Future*, by Joan Peyser, The New York Times, June 5, 1988. Subsequently, she used the article in her book, "The Music of My Time".
> 
> I chuckled at Wuorinen's view of Minimalism, which was cranking up then. He found himself unwillingly drawn into it--"Professional stance, not artistic stance."


Thank you for that. It's interesting to note how little has changed in the 25 years since that was written. Wuorinen's music is about as highly regarded and performed as often as it was then, minimalist music is still being written and performed, less "serious" music is still creeping on to "contemporary" programs in an effort to pander to audiences and writers are still misrepresenting serial composition ("designed to annihilate tonality"?? WTF???).

I'll have to give it more thought, but I think I disagree with Wuorinen's stance on composers taking the lead on deciding what audiences should hear. When I was younger, I used to think that force feeding listeners with music they might not initially be interested in hearing would build understanding and eventually win over some people. I no longer believe this to be the case. Some people (perhaps most) simply do not wish to hear any type of music other than what they have established as the norm for themselves over the course of their lifetimes. This seems to me to be an unchanchageable fact. To do as Wuorinen suggests would simply alienate this group. Fortunately, another unchangeable fact is that there will always be another (much smaller group) of people who are willing to judge new works and compositional techniques on their merits rather than whether they conform to their preconceptions. This smaller group probably would be well served by Wuorinen's concept. Once you add in the economic factor (i.e. the larger group will fill larger venues and generate more revenue), it's pretty easy to see why we have the situation we have today. Perhaps there is no real "solution" and we should just take a Cageian view and say "it is what it is and however it is, that's the way it's supposed to be".

As you can see, my thoughts on this are still half-baked. Sorry for the incoherence. Maybe after further consideration I can come up with something a little less rambling to say.


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## millionrainbows

rrudolph said:


> I'll have to give it more thought, but I think I disagree with Wuorinen's stance on composers taking the lead on deciding what audiences should hear. When I was younger, I used to think that force feeding listeners with music they might not initially be interested in hearing would build understanding and eventually win over some people. I no longer believe this to be the case. Some people (perhaps most) simply do not wish to hear any type of music other than what they have established as the norm for themselves over the course of their lifetimes. This seems to me to be an unchanchageable fact. To do as Wuorinen suggests would simply alienate this group. Fortunately, another unchangeable fact is that there will always be another (much smaller group) of people who are willing to judge new works and compositional techniques on their merits rather than whether they conform to their preconceptions. This smaller group probably would be well served by Wuorinen's concept.


I learned by being humble, and submitting to the mystery of what I did not understand yet. The problem with typical Western audiences is that they are too egotistical. The culture we live in breeds this sort of egotistical attitude. The Japanese are much more receptive in general, because they don't have this sense of entitlement that Americans and Latinos seem to have.


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## hawk

gotta say that I don't understand Cw's music one bit. At this point, being a fairly new comer to the classical "genre" (only been 6 years) I'll refrain from saying I don't like it until I learn more about it.
If proximity was helpful to understanding i would be in good shape since I have been close friends with his brothers family for more than 20 years~but it ain't helping at all!


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## millionrainbows

Things don't keep my interest unless there is an element of mystery about them.


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## Vaneyes

I think force feeding is necessary in the concert hall, otherwise new works wouldn't be.

Many at TC have their finger on the pulse re new commissions, new releases, but I'd guess most concertgoers do not. And furthermore, they probably don't mind some being led by the nose occasionally. 

Life would be dull with no surprises.


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## Bone

"Five" and "Archangel for Bass Trombone and String Quartet" are superb chamber pieces. Never much cared for the large ensemble stuff - I have the Koch disc with "Genesis" and I have probably listened to it once. Guess I'm due for a repeat investigation!


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## Weston

I am only familiar with Wuorinen from my brief forays into the 1960s-70s electronic music scene. His Nonesuch album *Time's Encomium* had some very interesting timbres and effects and was almost my favorite electronic music piece. But alas, electronic music was seldom rhythmic enough for my tastes, and too often degenerated into a "Gee Whiz! Look, I can startle you by suddenly changing which speaker / earpiece the sound is coming from" stylistic approach. Even my then teenaged ears found that tiresome. Today, Morton Subotnick is about the only composer of that genre I still enjoy, though I wouldn't mind hearing Time's Encomium again for old time's sake. (See what I did there? Actually it was accidental.)

[Edit] I'd be interested in knowing how to pronounce Wuorinen. You know, the greater the composer the more arcane the name.


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## Vaneyes

"Woor-nen"


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## rrudolph

Weston said:


> Today, Morton Subotnick is about the only composer of that genre I still enjoy, though I wouldn't mind hearing Time's Encomium again for old time's sake. (See what I did there? Actually it was accidental.)


Time's Encomium is a great piece, but Subotnick is the absolute MASTER of '60's electronic music. Silver Apples of the Moon is one of my favorite pieces of music, electronic or otherwise. I wish composers still wrote in that style!


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## hawk

*Wor-en-nin* is how I have heard the family speak it...


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## millionrainbows

Some Subotnik stuff is available in its original multi-channel mixes on DVD audio from MODE records.
http://www.moderecords.com/

They also have on DVD audio disc the entire uninterrupted 6-hour string quartet No. 2 by Morton Feldman.

Wourinen used the same RCA/Princeton synthesizer on Time's Encomium as Milton Babbitt used in his "Ensembles for Synthesizer" and "Philomel," and also the taped interpolations on his piano pieces. These are masterworks, for sure. I didn't like Wourinen's use of reverberation on his piece, and prefer the dyer, tighter sound of the Babbitt pieces.


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## rrudolph

millionrainbows said:


> Some Subotnik stuff is available in its original multi-channel mixes on DVD audio from MODE records.
> http://www.moderecords.com/
> 
> They also have on DVD audio disc the entire uninterrupted 6-hour string quartet No. 2 by Morton Feldman.
> 
> Wourinen used the same RCA/Princeton synthesizer on Time's Encomium as Milton Babbitt used in his "Ensembles for Synthesizer" and "Philomel," and also the taped interpolations on his piano pieces. These are masterworks, for sure. I didn't like Wourinen's use of reverberation on his piece, and prefer the dyer, tighter sound of the Babbitt pieces.


There's also a Wergo release of Silver Apples along with the Wild Bull:









I vaguely remember an old Nonesuch record (I think) that had a few composers that worked with the RCA equipment. The sound was distinctive; you could tell that the different pieces were all done on the same synth. Those were the days!









But we're supposed to be talking about *Wor-en-nin* on this thread. Maybe we should start a seperate nostalgic electronic music thread...


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## millionrainbows

rrudolph said:


> There's also a Wergo release of Silver Apples along with the Wild Bull:
> 
> View attachment 13493
> 
> 
> I vaguely remember an old Nonesuch record (I think) that had a few composers that worked with the RCA equipment. The sound was distinctive; you could tell that the different pieces were all done on the same synth. Those were the days!
> 
> View attachment 13494
> 
> 
> But we're supposed to be talking about *Wor-en-nin* on this thread. Maybe we should start a seperate nostalgic electronic music thread...


I'm not worried about staying on-topic, and never have been. If one thing leads to another, I'll follow it.

And this is not a "loose" attitude resulting from a lack of focus; this is a poetic sensibility. McLuhan said "...don't look too specifically for precise meaning in my work. Read it like poetry, because I am just probing around for meaning."

Society is controlled enough in this wonderful 21st century. Why should we inflict a constricted discipline on the things we love?

BTW, did anyone notice that close associate of Wourinen's earlier post (#4)?


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## Weston

millionrainbows said:


> BTW, did anyone notice that close associate of Wourinen's earlier post (#4)?


Wow. Nice.

Reminds me of a time I was on another forum many years ago raving about my first time hearing a synthesizer. Our local public radio played the entire Brandenburg no. 3 from the Switched on Bach album. I described how my impressionable 12 year old self pictured lots of busy scientists wearing lab coats running around a big room reading dials and and flicking switches frenetically trying to keep the music going -- but how really it was the music itself that was complicated and busy, and my lifelong love of baroque grew from that.

An unknown poster (I think with a name like Catlover or some such) with only one post stated simply "I enjoyed your story. Thanks." Now who would post just that? Who could that have been?


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## Weston

millionrainbows said:


> I suggest that anyone interested in Wuorinen get these 3 volumes, which contain his earliest recordings on Nonesuch, originally released as LPs. The KOCH stuff is OOP, but might be released on NAXOS, as I have seen other KOCH releases. The KOCH cover art is better, though.
> There is also some Stephan Wolpe on KOCH, with similar art, and Donald Martino as well, both worth getting.
> 
> . . .
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I see now that Time's Encomium is in this set. I only found volume 3 on Amazon in CD format, but the entire set is available as mp3 purchases in my Rhapsody account. So I am in for some interesting listening.


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## starthrower

Anybody know of any available CDs of Wuorinen's 1966 concerto for piano? There's a version by the Royal Philharmonic up at YouTube.


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## Weston

starthrower said:


> Anybody know of any available CDs of Wuorinen's 1966 concerto for piano? There's a version by the Royal Philharmonic up at YouTube.


I haven't heard this, but it's supposed to be the 1966 piano concerto. Also available as mp3. I may have to check this out.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000005TYM/ref=dm_dp_cdp?ie=UTF8&qid=1376187958&s=music&sr=1-1-catcorr


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## starthrower

^^^
That looks like the recording to get! I was reading about it in the 3rd Ear Classical Guide.


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## science

Another fine work, maybe lesser known even than his other works, is _A Reliquary for Igor Stravinsky_.

View attachment 43359


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## Whistler Fred

In addition to the works listed here, I've always liked his "Percussion Symphony" written for the New Jersey Percussion Ensemble. I was once available on a Nonesuch CD, but right now it looks like the only available recording is a Nonesuch MP3 (link attached here):

http://www.nonesuch.com/albums/percussion-music


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## Alypius

Whistler Fred said:


> In addition to the works listed here, I've always liked his "Percussion Symphony" written for the New Jersey Percussion Ensemble. It was once available on a Nonesuch CD, but right now it looks like the only available recording is a Nonesuch MP3 (link attached here):
> 
> http://www.nonesuch.com/albums/percussion-music


ArkivMusic has it in stock as a CD.


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## millionrainbows

I'm listening to the Tzadik Cd now, and pondering mortality. With a good cigar. He must have really loved that cat.


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## millionrainbows

Audio CD
$898.85 on AMAZON


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## Dirge

I investigated Wuorinen's music many years ago, and the three works listed below are the ones that stood out to me them and have stood the test of time, remaining favorites of mine to this day. The kinetic Horn Trio is the most immediately appealing work, while the formidable Fourth String Quartet would get my vote as Wuorinen's masterpiece.

*Second String Quartet* (1979)
:: Group for Contemporary Music [Koch '91]
This is a rigorous and unified but somewhat nervous and restless work that organically morphs its way through a variety of states/situations as it goes, its gritty atonal counterpoint giving it an unprettified industrial feel. Although the work is divided into four movements, its progress can be traced as a chain of many variation and development sections derived (however tenuously) from material/motives introduced at the outset. The sections vary in character from abstract to lyrical, aggressive to stasis-like, edgy to not-quite-relaxed, with everything rather slyly coming together in unison at work's end. Rather than encouraging independence and pitting the four voices against one another, Wuorinen here focuses on bringing the reluctant voices together to work in common cause, with variety coming from the grudging team encountering and overcoming various challenges that the composer puts before them. It's not a flashy, superficially attractive work-although sections of the second movement have a strong Bartók-like "night music" appeal-but it's got a taut, logical feel about it (that's my layman's sense of things, anyhow) and lots of interesting internal goings-on to ponder.

*Horn Trio* (1981)
:: Purvis, Hudson & Feinberg [Koch '91]




Wuorinen manages to put a punchy, animated, outgoing face on his curious brand of serialism without it being too in-your-face. The more rambunctious episodes remind me of John Adams's Chamber Symphony (and, by extension, Arnold Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony, Op. 9), but with the lingering minimalist tendencies replaced by a sort of Stravinskian neo-classicism of _The Soldier's Tale_ variety. There's also something a bit Straussian about some of the horn passages and something tenuously Copland_esque_ about the piano writing. Wuorinen balances and complements the more outgoing music with enough contemplative stuff-some of it surprisingly sublime, in fact-to stave off any sense of relentlessness and make for a well-rounded and satisfying whole. A nifty work.

*Fourth String Quartet* (1999)
:: Brentano Quartet [Tzadik, live '01]
This vigorous and polyphonically rigorous quartet rewards those listeners for whom joy of structure and design and inter-relationships is the thing. It's polyphony is so industrious and highly wrought that the work has the air of a fugue about it but with a more dubiously defined and enigmatic set of rules … a sort of serial fugal fantasy, if you will, with Wuorinen taking the scenic route to Parnassus. The architecture of the quartet is an elegant manifestation of its structural design, and vice versa-think well-designed bridge or Eiffel Tower-with no freeloading melodies or ornamentation: every note pitches in and contributes to the organic whole. The work is in a single movement and generally progresses, as the composer points out, "from slow to fast, from sparer to denser"-and, one might add, from simpler to complexer, with the polyphony morphing from the chords of the opening to the stacks/layers of seemingly tenuously related voices at work's end. The nifty trick here is that Wuorinen manages to maintain a corporate sense of purpose even as the voices seem to grow increasingly independent of one another.


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## Tikoo Tuba

millionrainbows said:


> He has a book "Simple Composition" but I'm not sure if these ideas are discussed.


I studied that book as a young man . Consider it a 12-tone textbook , kind to the mind . Appropriate for self-study .


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## Tikoo Tuba

Could anyone write his last name with fo-net-ik notation ?


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> I'm listening to the Tzadik Cd now, and pondering mortality. With a good cigar. He must have really loved that cat.


I think I'm going to buy that, on the strength of Time's Encomium, which has supposedly received a nice remaster for this issue-and because of the striking image of that cat. Tzadik is a great label, I expect it will be a worthy purchase. Anyway, Miles Davis was supposedly obsessed with Time's Encomium along with a few works of Stockhausen in the early '70s. My mind was blown when I made that connection for the first time yesterday.

Rest in peace to an interesting composer.


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## Mandryka

I'm listening to the fourth quartet on it now, for the first time. It's good - humoured music, full of tunes. Totally agreeable, a bit "european modernist" sounding. If I were nasty I might say Babbitt-light. But maybe that's a good thing.


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## Tikoo Tuba

Tikoo Tuba said:


> Could anyone write his last name with fo-net-ik notation ?


I really want to know .


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## starthrower

Tikoo Tuba said:


> I really want to know .


Warren-in, it's Finnish.


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## Tikoo Tuba

Thank you . I would like to recommend his book to friends .


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## millionrainbows

_Lepton_ is a real nice-sounding piece from the Tzadik CD of that name. It's for celesta, harp and piano.


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## starthrower

Dirge said:


> I investigated Wuorinen's music many years ago, and the three works listed below are the ones that stood out to me them and have stood the test of time, remaining favorites of mine to this day. The kinetic Horn Trio is the most immediately appealing work, while the formidable Fourth String Quartet would get my vote as Wuorinen's masterpiece.
> 
> *Horn Trio* (1981)
> :: Purvis, Hudson & Feinberg [Koch '91]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wuorinen manages to put a punchy, animated, outgoing face on his curious brand of serialism without it being too in-your-face. The more rambunctious episodes remind me of John Adams's Chamber Symphony (and, by extension, Arnold Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony, Op. 9), but with the lingering minimalist tendencies replaced by a sort of Stravinskian neo-classicism of _The Soldier's Tale_ variety. There's also something a bit Straussian about some of the horn passages and something tenuously Copland_esque_ about the piano writing. Wuorinen balances and complements the more outgoing music with enough contemplative stuff-some of it surprisingly sublime, in fact-to stave off any sense of relentlessness and make for a well-rounded and satisfying whole. A nifty work.


I enjoyed that horn trio. Thanks! It's on one of his Naxos CDs.


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## millionrainbows

Tikoo Tuba said:


> I studied that book as a young man . Consider it a 12-tone textbook , kind to the mind . Appropriate for self-study .


Tikoo! I thought you were a youngster, or a person with a language barrier and an interest in Zen. :lol:

There are very few 'how to' books on 12-tone. I must look into that, if it hasn't gone up to $900 on Amazon.

I ordered the Tzadik "Alligators" CD.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Audio CD
> $898.85 on AMAZON


That is not the price on Amazon. It's 15.99


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## Tikoo Tuba

millionrainbows said:


> There are very few 'how to' books on 12-tone.


I believe children would appreciate a book of 12 pages on 12-tone writing .


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## arpeggio

I just discovered that Wuorinen passed away on March 11, 2020.

He died from injuries he sustained in a fall last September.

He was 81.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> That is not the price on Amazon. It's 15.99


It was when I posted it. Are you accusing me of lying?

Here's another listing:




[COLOR=#111111 !important]On Alligators by CHARLES WUORINEN (2005-01-25)https://www.amazon.com/Alligators-C...ords=Wuorinen,+Charles&qid=1587487298&sr=8-88

[/COLOR]
Audio CD
$898.87$898.87 

$3.99 shipping

Only 1 left in stock - order soon.


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> It was when I posted it. Are you accusing me of lying?
> 
> Here's another listing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [COLOR=#111111 !important]On Alligators by CHARLES WUORINEN (2005-01-25)https://www.amazon.com/Alligators-C...ords=Wuorinen,+Charles&qid=1587487298&sr=8-88
> 
> [/COLOR]
> Audio CD
> $898.87$898.87
> 
> $3.99 shipping
> 
> Only 1 left in stock - order soon.


Sometimes, maybe you've noticed this too, Amazon will create duplicate listings that are far more expensive, and they will always have a date in the title of the listing, ie. "On Alligators by CHARLES WUORINEN (2005-01-25)" vs this standard listing:

https://www.amazon.com/Alligators-Charles-Wuorinen/dp/B0006SNLJS/

I have no idea why this happens. Makes it difficult to find music sometimes.


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## millionrainbows

Okay, thanks for that reply. Now I'll post it to the person who needs to see it.



starthrower said:


> That is not the price on Amazon. It's 15.99





flamencosketches said:


> Sometimes, maybe you've noticed this too, Amazon will create duplicate listings that are far more expensive, and they will always have a date in the title of the listing, ie. "On Alligators by CHARLES WUORINEN (2005-01-25)" vs this standard listing:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Alligators-Charles-Wuorinen/dp/B0006SNLJS/
> 
> I have no idea why this happens. Makes it difficult to find music sometimes.


Yes, but it is nice when that sometimes disappears, so you can use it to contradict someone.


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