# Beethoven's 3rd Symphony



## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

Be honest...when you listen to a recording of this work, do you skip the 2nd movement? In a live performance, do you wish the orchestra "would not bother" playing that movement?

Still, the huge jump in length and complexity between the 2nd and 3rd Symphonies is unmatched in all of music. Beethoven must have been exhausted after writing it (op.55) because the 4th Symphony (op.60) is largely unsatisfactory.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Actually, I usually just listen to the 1st movement (one of my favorite movements from any symphony). The 2nd is a bit too long for me to digest.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Aurelian said:


> because the 4th Symphony (op.60) is largely unsatisfactory.


In your opinion, of course.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

The slow movement is brilliant as is the whole symphony- possibly deserves to be hailed as the greatest of all. 
The 4th symphony is on a smaller scale but is anything but unsatisfactory.

Now go away and write this line 1000 times.

I must not be so shallow
I must not be so shallow.............


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

When this course goes on sale, buy the download and listen to it. You'll adore the 4th symphony and NEVER want to skip the 2nd movement of the Eroica again.

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=730


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Olias said:


> When this course goes on sale, buy the download and listen to it. You'll adore the 4th symphony and NEVER want to skip the 2nd movement of the Eroica again.
> 
> http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=730


When will it go on sale? Im very interested...


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Since The Great Courses has so many available, they rotate which courses are on sale. Usually any one of them goes on sale around four or five times a year. I've purchased about 20 courses from them over the past several years and have never been disappointed with any of the music ones.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

The second movement is the best bit!


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## Oliver (Feb 14, 2012)

Haha, yes I in fact do. :L

I've just put it on now after reading this, and I've forgotten how good it is. It is a fantastic movement, but I do prefer mvt 1 and 3.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Aurelian said:


> Be honest...when you listen to a recording of this work, do you skip the 2nd movement? In a live performance, do you wish the orchestra "would not bother" playing that movement?


Wow, I've never thought of skipping that movement. Of course, I identify the hero with Jesus, so it makes sense to me that after the activity of the first movement, the death in the second naturally follows, with the joy in his followers from the resurrection in the third movement and his apostles going into all the world in the last. It's the only hero-story I can think of that neatly fits the order of the movements. So using that model, the second movement is pivotal to the work's progress.

(And I recognize that's probably not the story that Beethoven intended to depict.)


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## CVM (Apr 2, 2012)

The first time I ever heard the Eroica in concert, over half a century ago now, was with the Los Angeles Phil. conducted by Alfred Wallenstein. If that conductor means nothing to you now, it's just as well; he was competent and the L.A. used him as fill-in at times, but he was a B-O-R-E, and the Funeral March sounded as if the entire orchestra was itself being interred. I hated the thing....

And then a few years later I heard some recordings, mostly old ones now but wonderful, and I changed my mind entirely. If done reasonably well or better, the Funeral March is hair-raising and riveting end to end. Old recordings that I found irresistible and which can still be tracked down are: Furtwängler, Vienna, 1944 (one of the great classic recordings ever done, try the Opus Kura reissue); Willem Mengelberg, Concertgebouw; Hermann Abendroth, Leipzig; or Hermann Scherchen, Vienna. The latter is rather eccentric but you'll learn an amazing amount from that man.

Of modern issues I have a particular fascination at the moment with two: Daniel Grossmann and Ensemble 28, on the Neos label (very much a period-style performance), and Jean-Philippe Tremblay and his Montreal Metropolitan Orchestra, a young conductor to watch very carefully as he has a grand future ahead of him.... sadly, his Eroica can only be had as part of the full symphony set on Analekta. Happily, the set is sold at a bargain price at least in the US/Canada.

The 4th "largely unsatisfactory?" Excuse me? Between 3 and 4 it's impossible to choose, but one or the other is my favorite. Whatever could have prompted such an assessment as "unsatisfactory?" Too Haydnesque? But for those of us for whom Haydn is The Absolute Pinnacle, that's exactly what we love most about it!


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Manxfeeder said:


> Wow, I've never thought of skipping that movement. Of course, I identify the hero with Jesus, so it makes sense to me that after the activity of the first movement, the death in the second naturally follows, with the joy in his followers from the resurrection in the third movement and his apostles going into all the world in the last. It's the only hero-story I can think of that neatly fits the order of the movements. So using that model, the second movement is pivotal to the work's progress.
> 
> (And I recognize that's probably not the story that Beethoven intended to depict.)


Indeed. And if Beethoven were depicting any _story_, which he wasn't, I imagine it would have been something to do with Napoleon ...doh! I think the 'hero' is an abstract.


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## Moscow-Mahler (Jul 8, 2010)

Never. In fact I have tears sometimes on the 6th minute of it.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Petwhac said:


> Indeed. And if Beethoven were depicting any _story_, which he wasn't, I imagine it would have been something to do with Napoleon ...doh! I think the 'hero' is an abstract.


Yeah, I didn't mean to reflect anything other than my own subjective interpretation of the piece.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

I think it is wonderful that Manxfeeder can have a lovely subjective experience to the symphony. I've never thought of skipping the movement, nor would I! Also, I don't find it long whatsoever. It isn't much longer than two of the other movements. I'm pretty immune to length, I suppose.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Now that is a remarkable question!  I would never dream of skipping it - for me that movement is the crux of the whole work. I also think that the slow movement would have worked well enough had Beethoven written it as an optional stand-alone work in the manner of the grosse fugue for string quartet years later..


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

But the 2nd movement has some wonderful moments!

For example, this video has comparisons from 3 different performances of the same part. Such a powerful build-up; I find it the most moving moment in the symphony.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I realize that people's tastes do differ, but I honestly thought this was a joke. To spell it out: the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 3rd is one of the best adagios in the whole repertoire of classical music. I have a hard time imaging someone who appreciates movements 1, 3 and 4 not liking it.

Oh, and symphony #4 is a masterpiece of light and etherealness, too.


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## EarthBoundRules (Sep 25, 2011)

For me, the 2nd movement of the _Eroica_ is the most interesting slow movement I've ever heard...

Am I just crazy or is something wrong here?


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

The majority seems to love the second movement, including me, and I had always believed it is almost universally loved until a few seconds ago. Huh??


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## An Die Freude (Apr 23, 2011)

I love it, and also its use in Strauss' Metamorphosen. Simply amazing.


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## afterpostjack (May 2, 2010)

The second movement is my favorite movement in that symphony, together with the last one. I love the darkness portrayed in the funeral march. The 4th symphony is one of my absolute favorite symphonies by Beethoven, together with his 7th nowadays.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Beethoven is not one of my favorites, but it doesn't mean I can't or don't enjoy some of his works. In fact, I do like the "Eroica"quite a bit, particularly those readings of Szell/Cleveland and Munch/Boston. To me, the second movement is one of the most fascinating and satisfying of the entire Third Symphony. I especially focus on its varying degrees of intensity and the interaction of its noble and tragic elements. I've never come even close to wishing it away.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

After it, no other piece of music even deserves to be called a Funeral March. Masterpiece through and through.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

When you can listen to the second movement of Beethoven's Eroica Symphony, hardly moving, completely enthralled, perhaps a tear or two, streaming down your face, visibly moved:

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

I welcome you as a genuine, certified, serious classical music lover!!

If you can't, please work on it.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

MarkW said:


> After it, no other piece of music even deserves to be called a Funeral March. Masterpiece through and through.


Chopin's funeral march comes pretty close.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Xaltotun said:


> Oh, and symphony #4 is a masterpiece of light and etherealness, too.


Indeed, Sym #4 is a very substantial work...hard to characterize -it is lighter than #3, but there is certainly a depth - a light and dark side, so to speak...it's also probably the most difficult Beethoven symphony to perform, for the musicians. the 4th mvt alone is difficult, esp if taken at a rapid clip -ie - Reiner, Monteux, Mravinsky, etc


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2016)

Wow. No way do I skip anything. The entire symphony is enjoyable and the second movement in an integral part of the journey from movement I to movement IV. 

Also I would not call the 4th Symphony unsatisfactory. Although it is my seventh favorite of Beethoven's, it is still better, in my opinion, than any of Hayden's symphonies and better than all but two of Mozart's.


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## Retrograde Inversion (Nov 27, 2016)

Nice necro. 

Skip the slow slow movement?? Its one of the most powerful things Beethoven (or anyone else, for that matter) ever wrote. The climax is shattering.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

The only skipping that's allowed in Beethovens' 3th symphony is the skipping IN BETWEEN the movements in order for the waiting to the next movement is reduced to a minimum!!


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

I like the second movement, but I agree with the sentiment that it isn't the best part of the work. In order of quality, I would place the movements as such:

1. 4th movement
2. 1st movement
3. 2nd movement
4. 3rd movement


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

The Eroica is a symphony I keep going back to regularly. If I had to choose a single symphony as my favorite, likely it would be it. Skipping the 2nd movement? That's crazy talk. I love every single movement (although, I must admit that sometimes I skip the 2nd movement of the 5th).

And of course the 4th is a masterpiece too. In my opinion, one of the most underrated symphonies.


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## Retrograde Inversion (Nov 27, 2016)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> The Eroica is a symphony I keep going back to regularly. If I had to choose a single symphony as my favorite, likely it would be it. Skipping the 2nd movement? That's crazy talk. I love every single movement (although, I must admit that sometimes I skip the 2nd movement of the 5th).
> 
> And of course the 4th is a masterpiece too. In my opinion, one of the most underrated symphonies.


Skip the 2nd movement of the 5th? That's crazy talk!


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Retrograde Inversion said:


> Skip the 2nd movement of the 5th? That's crazy talk!


*sometimes*


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> Indeed. And if Beethoven were depicting any _story_, which he wasn't, I imagine it would have been something to do with Napoleon ...doh! I think the 'hero' is an abstract.


When Beethoven was told of Napoleon's death in 1821, he remarked, "I have already written the music for that disaster." So maybe he _did _have someone, someone specific, in mind.

This was about the time that Beethoven, having dinner with a friend, identified the Eroica as his favorite symphony.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

KenOC said:


> When Beethoven was told of Napoleon's death in 1821, he remarked, "I have already written the music for that disaster." So maybe he _did _have someone, someone specific, in mind.
> 
> This was about the time that Beethoven, having dinner with a friend, identified the Eroica as his favorite symphony.


For me it is his greatest symphony, ever so slightly better than the fifth and ninth.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

KenOC said:


> When Beethoven was told of Napoleon's death in 1821, he remarked, "I have already written the music for that disaster." So maybe he _did _have someone, someone specific, in mind.
> 
> This was about the time that Beethoven, having dinner with a friend, identified the Eroica as his favorite symphony.


Scott Burnham's _Beethoven Hero_, a monograph devoted to the Eroica, gives an overview of the various programmatic interpretations of the symphony over the last couple of centuries in his first chapter. That the funeral march is for the hero who falls in the first movement was a common thread, I seem to remember. Burnham's book gets pretty technical and analytical, so I wouldn't recommend it to general audiences, but if one can get it at the local library, the parts dealing with the history of the symphony's interpretation are really interesting and comprehensible.

Edit: Wilhelm von Lenz specifies that the death of the hero takes place just before the "new theme" of the development (the one in E minor) on that horrendously dissonant chord where E and F clash. (Neapolitan 6/5 in E minor)


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I don't even consider it a linear journey. The second movement happens to be a funeral march -- the greatesst one ever composed (IMHO) -- and I never bothered to care about whether it was the funeral of some hero depicted in the first movement or not. It's possible to be too literal. (Next we'll be worried about whether or not Hunding really had a tree growing through the middle of his house.)


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Petwhac said:


> Indeed. And if Beethoven were depicting any _story_, which he wasn't, I imagine it would have been something to do with Napoleon ...doh! I think the 'hero' is an abstract.


The second movement always makes me think of Napoleon and his army returning from Russia, defeated and exhausted, even though the work was written well before those events.

But that's the nice thing about music: you are free to read your own story into it.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> The Eroica is a symphony I keep going back to regularly. If I had to choose a single symphony as my favorite, likely it would be it. Skipping the 2nd movement? That's crazy talk. I love every single movement (although, I must admit that sometimes I skip the 2nd movement of the 5th).
> 
> And of course the 4th is a masterpiece too. In my opinion, one of the most underrated symphonies.


The only symphony by Beethoven that _isn't_ a masterpiece is Barry Cooper's reconstruction of his tenth. 

It is commonly noted that after his first two, his odd numbered symphonies tend to be the more heavyweight ones, with the even numbered ones lighter in texture in mood. As such, since we all associate Beethoven with heavyweight stuff, the odd numbered ones always get all the attention.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Razumovskymas said:


> The only skipping that's allowed in Beethovens' 3th symphony is the skipping IN BETWEEN the movements in order for the waiting to the next movement is reduced to a minimum!!


Very wise words !!!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MarkW said:


> I don't even consider it a linear journey. The second movement happens to be a funeral march -- the greatesst one ever composed (IMHO) -- and I never bothered to care about whether it was the funeral of some hero depicted in the first movement or not. *It's possible to be too literal*. (Next we'll be worried about whether or not Hunding really had a tree growing through the middle of his house.)


It is also possible to ignore the perfectly obvious, as well as Beethoven's own words: "I have already written the music for that disaster" (as quoted by Ken above)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I would imagine that the reactions of first audience members to experiencing Beethoven's Eroica Symphony must have been similar to typical conservative concert goers of today, experiencing the music of Boulez.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I would imagine that the reactions of first audience members to experiencing Beethoven's Eroica Symphony must have been similar to typical conservative concert goers of today, experiencing the music of Boulez.


Or the way they felt when Rite of Spring premiered. Except they wouldn't dare to boo Beethoven.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

brianvds said:


> Or the way they felt when Rite of Spring premiered. Except they wouldn't dare to boo Beethoven.


Yes. Probably.

Different norms in early 19th Century Vienna.

However, if the first performances of the Eroica were held at La Scala in Milan, Beethoven would have been made to go _boo-_hoo!!


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## Retrograde Inversion (Nov 27, 2016)

Actually, the premiere performance of the _Eroica_ was a private performance for Beethoven's patron Prince Lobkowitz. No peasants allowed in!


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

So much better than the 2nd movement of the 5th symphony, Beethoven's weakest moment in all of the symphonies.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Why would you skip the second movement of any symphony??? 

2nd movement of the Eroica is currently my favourite movement; in the past liked the first better somehow the second has really grown on me recently.

(2nd movement of the fifth is also my favourite of that symphony, and pretty much always has been.)


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Ramako said:


> Why would you skip the second movement of any symphony???
> 
> 2nd movement of the Eroica is currently my favourite movement; in the past liked the first better somehow the second has really grown on me recently.
> 
> (*2nd movement of the fifth is also my favourite of that symphony*, and pretty much always has been.)


Sometimes I can't wait to listen to the 3rd movement - it's that good 

I digress but the 5th's 1st movement is (and likely always will be) my favorite.


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