# Baroque Keyboard Music That Translates Best On Piano



## starthrower

I can't really listen to too much harpsichord, so I want to start a discussion about baroque keyboard works that sound great played on piano, and the best pianists to listen to. And my idea of great is not too overly staccato, or pianists that have a way of softening the staccato phrases and making the music more graceful and legato sounding on piano.

I guess Glenn Gould wouldn't like this, but honestly, I don't like the way he starts off the Well Tempered Clavier. It sounds too much like finger exercises. I much prefer Richter. And I just discovered a woman named Marcelle Meyer, and I like the way she plays Scarlatti. She does actually play fairly staccato phrases, but there's a French gracefulness to it that appeals to me, and she has a beautiful soft touch, so I'm looking for more of the same. Thanks!


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## tdc

That is a nice recording. Well these things really come down to personal taste. I really like the harpsichord myself, but I would suggest you check out Schiff's recordings of Bach and Angela Hewitt's recordings of F. Couperin's music.


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## tdc

This is nice too.


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## starthrower

tdc said:


> That is a nice recording. Well these things really come down to personal taste. I really like the harpsichord myself, but I would suggest you check out Schiff's recordings of Bach and Angela Hewitt's recordings of F. Couperin's music.


I just don't know much about the various types of harpsichords. I don't like the bright sounding instruments. I really like the ones I've heard that have more of a mellow gut string type of sound.


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## jegreenwood

tdc said:


> That is a nice recording. Well these things really come down to personal taste. I really like the harpsichord myself, but I would suggest you check out Schiff's recordings of Bach and Angela Hewitt's recordings of F. Couperin's music.


And her Rameau. I was just listening to that last week.

And I recommend Perahia for Bach.


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## Bulldog

For Bach I would recommend Gould, Tureck, Woodward, Rubsam and Koroliov. The only Handel I've found excellent on piano comes from Richter. For Scarlatti, I'd go with Sudbin.


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## starthrower

I ordered the cheapo Documents label box set of Marcelle Meyer (17 CDs) for 20 bucks. Her playing blows me away! They are old mono recordings, but the music is so good it doesn't matter. And she plays everything form Scarlatti to Stravinsky.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PD476SM/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=


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## Blancrocher

starthrower said:


> I ordered the cheapo Documents label box set of Marcelle Meyer (17 CDs) for 20 bucks. Her playing blows me away! They are old mono recordings, but the music is so good it doesn't matter. And she plays everything form Scarlatti to Stravinsky.
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PD476SM/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=


I should buy that, too--especially since a lot of my favorite recordings by her have disappeared from Youtube. But keep an eye out for remasters as well.

A brilliant pianist, to be sure.


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## starthrower

I also ordered some Bach by Gould. The Inventions, and Toccatas. A 3 disc set for 7 dollars. And there's a 4 disc set of the suites for around 9 dollars. I've never listened to Perahia. I've heard some Schiff, but he sounds too mannered and polite for my taste.


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## Mandryka

Daniel Ben Piennar's Gibbons
Francesco Tristano Schlime's Frescobaldi and Buxtehude
Eric Heidsieck's Handel

The Gibbons is the best of these IMO.


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## Bettina

tdc said:


> That is a nice recording. Well these things really come down to personal taste. I really like the harpsichord myself, but I would suggest you check out Schiff's recordings of Bach and Angela Hewitt's recordings of F. Couperin's music.


Seconding Angela Hewitt. In addition to her Couperin recordings, you might like her take on Rameau as well.

Her recordings make an excellent case for the performance of French Baroque music on the piano--something that is rarely done, but she accomplishes it beautifully!


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## jegreenwood

For a different view of Bach, try Samuil Feinberg's Well-Tempered Clavier - Bach as seen through Chopin. I wouldn't want it to be my only WTC, but there's a real intelligence behind his interpretation. 

Note - this is a Russian recording from around 1960, and availability of a decent mastering is a hit or miss proposition. The best mastering I've heard that is readily available is the one on Tidal. Another contributor to this forum was kind enough to send me one that I liked.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Perahia's Goldberg variations are one of my desert island disks. I like Perahia's other Bach too.

Ivo Pogorelic in Scarlatti is another favorite of mine.


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## Pugg

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Perahia's Goldberg variations are one of my desert island disks. I like Perahia's other Bach too.
> 
> Ivo Pogorelic in Scarlatti is another favourite of mine.


It's high on my list as well, however Yevgeny Sudbin is no 1 at the moment.

Details:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/BIS/BIS2138


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## Animal the Drummer

Bulldog said:


> For Bach I would recommend Gould, Tureck, Woodward, Rubsam and Koroliov. The only Handel I've found excellent on piano comes from Richter. For Scarlatti, I'd go with Sudbin.


Not a fan of Rübsam personally - I find he pulls the music around far too much for my taste. Agree otherwise, though Gould can be an acquired taste, especially for those who might find his vocalisations a problem.


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## Guest

I have yet to hear a baroque piece that didn't sound better to me on the piano! I do enjoy well-recorded harpsichord from a purely audiophile perspective, though.


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## JACE

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Perahia's Goldberg variations are one of my desert island disks. I like Perahia's other Bach too.


I feel the same way. I've never been disappointed by any of Perahia's Bach recordings.

I also enjoy Rosalyn Tureck's and Friedrich Gulda's Bach -- particularly their recordings of the WTC. They approach the music very differently, but both are wonderful.


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## Guest

The sound of the harpsichord irritates me. But I love much of baroque music. Therefore all baroque music for harpsichord translates better on piano to my ears. I really like Dinnerstein's recording of the Goldberg Variations and Hewitt's recording of the Well-Temperered Clavier.


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## hpowders

Good thing you weren't alive in the 1700's. You might have taken arsenic.


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## hpowders

None of it translates well to the piano. The music sounds best on the instrument it was intended for.


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## Bulldog

Although I can easily love Bach played on piano, I don't believe there is a single baroque solo keyboard composition that works best on piano. However, it's a good thing that those who find the harpsichord problematic have the trusty piano to maximize their listening pleasure.


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## starthrower

hpowders said:


> None of it translates well to the piano. The music sounds best on the instrument it was intended for.


I don't believe that. A lot of baroque, and other keyboard music sounds great on guitar, as well as piano.


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## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> Although I can easily love Bach played on piano, I don't believe there is a single baroque solo keyboard composition that works best on piano.


Scarlatti K 544 maybe, and possibly k 481.


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## Mandryka

hpowders said:


> None of it translates well to the piano. The music sounds best on the instrument it was intended for.


Some of it may have been intended for piano.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Bulldog said:


> Although I can easily love Bach played on piano, I don't believe there is a single baroque solo keyboard composition that works best on piano. However, it's a good thing that those who find the harpsichord problematic have the trusty piano to maximize their listening pleasure.


You are right. There isn't a single baroque solo keyboard composition that works best on piano. They ALL work best on piano.


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## Bulldog

Can we at least agree that the artistry of the performer is more important than the instrument used?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Bulldog said:


> Can we at least agree that the artistry of the performer is more important than the instrument used?


I can't. I do not like the sound of the harpsichord and music performed on it loses much of its appeal to me. It's like listening to your favorite aria in Donald Duck's voice.

Now of course the artistry of the performer is hugely important but luckily we have an abundance of superbly talented pianists who choose to play Bach.


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## tdc

I enjoy both piano and harpsichord for most Baroque solo keyboard works, for concertos or orchestral music featuring keyboard I think they sound much better with the harpsichord. Frankly I'll never understand some members aversion to the sound of this instrument.

To each their own.


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## Guest

To each their own,I second that.


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## bioluminescentsquid

Harpsichord, for me (but I listen to a lot of Gould!). Although most Bach transfers quite well to piano, I could never think of playing things like Forqueray on a piano - I would miss the huge, transparent bass of a harpsichord. But surprisingly, Sweelinck does remarkably well!






Most of the time, harpsichords have more "personality," so to say - while most Steinways and Bosens and Yamahas are fashioned more or less alike (I wouldn't be able to tell them apart just by sound on CD), a 1646 Couchet is quite different from a 1700 Grimaldi, which is also very different from a 1734 Vater. I like the variety of shapes and sizes harpsichords comes in, and the corresponding variety of timbres, rather than the "one-size-fits-all" piano.

Some other differences: of course dynamics can't be made on harpsichord, so performers rely on "fluid" phrasing rather than dynamics, and it takes some time for me, someone who grew up listening to early music on harpsichords, to adapt to dynamics rather than rubato on a piano (like the surprise I felt initially when listening to Schiff's Bach on concertzender).

But I like this analogy: imagine a precious piece of artwork - say, the Ghent altarpiece. Playing Bach's partitas on harpsichord is like admiring the altarpiece in situ inside the Gothic church, carved stone sculptures and all - it's the way the builders intended it to be displayed, "in context" with everything else beside it in the church. You might get distracted by everything else, but there's a quaint sort of charm to it, and you're more looking for the overall effect.










Playing Bach's partitas on a piano is like moving it to a nice, whitewashed, glass-encased display gallery (picture not best example). The art is taken out of context and put in a "modern" one, which is significantly less distracting but might miss the overall effect or create a different one (not necessarily bad!).










So, to quote Traverso, "to each their own!"


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Scarlatti K 544 maybe, and possibly k 481.





Mandryka said:


> Some of it may have been intended for piano.


But just as much as this is true, the music was not intended for modern Steinway and sons, but for early fortepiano, an instrument with quite another sound and other properties than the Steinway. However it can not be denied, that some of Scarlattis sonatas sound equally well on fortepiano as on harpsichord. But this does not imply, that they sound well on Steinway.


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## premont

Kontrapunctus said:


> I have yet to hear a baroque piece that didn't sound better to me on the piano! I do enjoy well-recorded harpsichord from a purely audiophile perspective, though.


I have yet to hear a baroque piece, that didn't sound better to me on the harpsichord. But I do enjoy well-recorded Steinway from a purely audiophile perspective, though.


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## Mandryka

premont said:


> But just as much as this is true, the music was not intended for modern Steinway and sons, but for early fortepiano, an instrument with quite another sound and other properties than the Steinway. However it can not be denied, that some of Scarlattis sonatas sound equally well on fortepiano as on harpsichord. But this does not imply, that they sound well on Steinway.


-------

This is true.


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## Mandryka

premont said:


> But just as much as this is true, the music was not intended for modern Steinway and sons, but for early fortepiano, an instrument with quite another sound and other properties than the Steinway. However it can not be denied, that some of Scarlattis sonatas sound equally well on fortepiano as on harpsichord. But this does not imply, that they sound well on Steinway.


This is true. I was thinking of the sort of piano that Enrico Baiano uses.


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## hpowders

I dislike all baroque keyboard music on piano because to me it sounds horrible.

Strictly a harpsichord guy.

However if someone put a gun to my head, and I had to recommend baroque piano, otherwise I would be killed, I would say the music that sounds least offensive to these ears (still mildly horrible!) would be the Scarlatti Keyboard Sonatas in the right hands, such as the one's that belonged to Horowitz.

Take the gun away and I'm back to preaching that Scarlatti sounds best on harpsichord.


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## premont

hpowders said:


> I dislike all baroque keyboard music on piano _because to me it sounds horrible_.


Yes, and note that the initiator of this thread called it:

Baroque keyboard music that *translates* best on piano.

This word "translates" says it all.


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## hpowders

premont said:


> Yes, and note that the initiator of this thread called it:
> 
> Baroque keyboard music that *translates* best on piano.
> 
> This word "translates" says it all.


Translates best: Probably Scarlatti Keyboard Sonatas played crisply and without pedal. The use of the pedal doesn't translate well to baroque keyboard works. Nothing turns me off more.


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## starthrower

The instrument is only a vehicle for musical performance and expression. But I bet if Bach and Scarlatti were alive today and they were given a beautiful Steinway piano, they'd play it a hell of alot more than those 18th century relics.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

starthrower said:


> The instrument is *only a vehicle* for musical performance and expression. But I bet if Bach and Scarlatti were alive today and they were given a beautiful Steinway piano, they'd play it a hell of alot more than those 18th century relics.


Well, what vehicle you choose does matter. Try taking a long trip in this car if you don't think so


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## starthrower

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Well, what vehicle you choose does matter. Try taking a long trip in this car if you don't think so
> 
> View attachment 91525


Yeah, that was my point. I did mention a Steinway piano compared to a 300 hundred year old keyboard.


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## Chronochromie

starthrower said:


> The instrument is only a vehicle for musical performance and expression. But I bet if Bach and Scarlatti were alive today and they were given a beautiful Steinway piano, they'd play it a hell of alot more than those 18th century relics.


I bet you 500 gulden that they would prefer ye olde clavichorde.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Chronochromie said:


> I bet you 500 gulden that they would prefer ye olde clavichorde.


Why, there's an easy way to settle this wager. Let me bring those two back from the dead. Will let you know what they say.


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## Chronochromie

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Why, there's an easy way to settle this wager. Let me bring those two back from the dead. Will let you know what they say.


Should be easy enough, there's many necromancers around on this forum!


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## jegreenwood

hpowders said:


> Translates best: Probably Scarlatti Keyboard Sonatas played crisply and without pedal. The use of the pedal doesn't translate well to baroque keyboard works. Nothing turns me off more.


You might like Schiff's recent cycle. He doesn't use the pedal.


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## quietfire

I really love Igor Levit's Partitas and Goldberg Variations.


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## hpowders

jegreenwood said:


> You might like Schiff's recent cycle. He doesn't use the pedal.


I have Schiff's latest Keyboard Partitas performed live and was a bit disappointed. Seemed to skim over the music.


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## realdealblues

I can listen to a harpsichord for an hour or two but after a certain point it starts to wear on my ears in a way in which a modern piano does not.

I am also in the group who firmly believes any of the old composers if given a chance would far prefer a modern piano as well. When the Fortepiano came out they ditched the harpsichord and began writing for the new instrument. To me they were very forward thinking people and especially Bach himself was arranging his own works for different instruments so I don't feel he would have had any issue with it. 

I do occasionally delve into harpsichord music for a while but I much prefer to listen to a modern piano, especially for long stretches.


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## lextune

Richter is my go to for the WTC on the piano. He is miraculous. Lush and full. The piano in bloom. And yet every line is clear, and bell-like.
Amazing.


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## hpowders

Scarlatti Sonatas probably. But then again I'm spoiled listening to the magician, Vladimir Horowitz.


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## hpowders

As a matter of fact, I just ordered Horowitz playing 20 Scarlatti Sonatas because I can't find anything by Horowitz/Scarlatti in my house. When I moved, it seems some of my stuff got lost.

Maybe Scarlatti/Horowitz is somewhere up in the attic along with the Mahler Violin Concerto.


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## Pugg

lextune said:


> Richter is my go to for the WTC on the piano. He is miraculous. Lush and full. The piano in bloom. And yet every line is clear, and bell-like.
> Amazing.


You say the ( absolute) right words.:tiphat:


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