# Are singers musicians?



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I know musicians that say yes and no.
Opinions?
:tiphat:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Well as the human voice is an instrument which it takes a lot of skill to control, I would say a definite yes. Of course anyone ne can sing but to sing well - at least with classical music - you have to be a good musician. My wife has sung in various crack choirs which required good sight reading ability and I assure you everyone there was a musician whether or not they could play another instrument.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

I voted yes. But if you were to ask me about drummers....


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I voted yes also, although I have some reservations .


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Well I'd say singers are musicians, but some rely more on the beauty of their instruments to get them by, whilst others probe more deeply into the meaning of the music. Though I can enjoy beautiful sounds as much as anyone, my preference would tend to be for the latter.

Pavarotti, for instance, would belong to the former category. He was innately musical, I think, but couldn't read music. Domingo, on the other hand, and, as we all know, also had some success as a conductor.
The soprano Barbara Hannigan is combining both skills at the same time. Now there's a musician.
Callas was a skilled pianist, and once sight sang the role of Isolde at an audition with Serafin, having told him that she already knew the role. She almost fooled him too.

Leontyne Price is another singer who belongs in the former category. A surpassingly beautiful instrument, with a natural musicality. However, if you were to listen to any of her _Prima Donna_ recital discs (there were five volumes) it would be to find that, though the range of composers is wide, her response to the music is not. In her hands Handel sounds much like Verdi. She doesn't bring that sense of the specific to the music that some less vocally endowed singers do. There is a great deal of pleasure to be had from the voice itself (especially in the earlier recitals), but, as one aria follows another, the sameness of interpretation starts to rankle.

This is something that is often noticeable in singers' recital records, and it seems to me we tend to accept it, but I wonder why. We would not accept a pianist playing Mozart the same way they play Liszt, so why is it acceptable in singers?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Technically yes, but I typically think of musicians as people who "play" an instrument separate from their body. I would normally not say Barbra Streisand or Renee Fleming were musicians, favoring artist or vocalist. Of course a very high percentage of vocalists do play the piano to accompany themselves when learning a role. Debbie Voigt even accompanied herself in a spectacular " I Love A Piano" encore in her concert. Not to mention the great Aretha Franklin at her recent tribute to Carole King performing "Natural Woman" before the Obamas.... spectacular!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Well I'd say singers are musicians, but some rely more on the beauty of their instruments to get them by, whilst others probe more deeply into the meaning of the music. Though I can enjoy beautiful sounds as much as anyone, my preference would tend to be for the latter.
> 
> Pavarotti, for instance, would belong to the former category. He was innately musical, I think, but couldn't read music. Domingo, on the other hand, and, as we all know, also had some success as a conductor.
> The soprano Barbara Hannigan is combining both skills at the same time. Now there's a musician.
> ...


I haven't run across a post by you in a while Astute observations, but, as someone from Price's home state, we would never mention her generic interpretations out loud as... that is not done Particularly in her early work, her voice was so spectacularly beautiful it took a while for one to notice. Same thing for her live performances... her diva fabulousness masked this quality as well.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I haven't run across a post by you in a while Astute observations, but, as someone from Price's home state, we would never mention her generic interpretations out loud as... that is not done Particularly in her early work, her voice was so spectacularly beautiful it took a while for one to notice. Same thing for her live performances... her diva fabulousness masked this quality as well.


I don't deny that for one moment. It was, without question, a fabulously beautiful instrument, and, as I said, there is a great deal of pleasure to be found in the sound itself. From that point of view, the earlier discs of the Prima Donna series are more satisfactory than the later ones, and I do enjoy them, but maybe piecemeal rather than at one sitting.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Technically yes, but I typically think of musicians as people who "play" an instrument separate from their body. I would normally not say Barbra Streisand or Renee Fleming were musicians, favoring artist or vocalist. Of course a very high percentage of vocalists do play the piano to accompany themselves when learning a role. Debbie Voigt even accompanied herself in a spectacular " I Love A Piano" encore in her concert. Not to mention the great Aretha Franklin at her recent tribute to Carole King performing "Natural Woman" before the Obamas.... spectacular!


Well, as I said, Callas too was an accomplished pianist and she didn't play just to accompany herself when learning a role. Indeed she wouldn't normally use the piano when learning a role, but would read the score like a book, absorbing all the composer's markings. All the conductors she worked with talk of her extraordinary musical skill. There is a great story of when she was recording the Mad Scenes disc in London. Rescigno was going over the long cor anglais solo which introduces the *Anna Bolena* cavatina. Hearing the music, Callas entered the room, at first listening quietly then actively entered into the work, occasionally singing the line for the player. She then discussed how Donizettian lines of embellishment differed from Bellinian ones, how the approach and departure from a trill differed from one composer to another. This is an example of a musician.

It is not just someone who can play an instrument or accompany themselves at the piano.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Yes......................


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Of course they are


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


> I know musicians that say yes and no.
> Opinions?
> :tiphat:


I voted yes. Can you give any specific examples of a musician that says no?


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

of course they are


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Of course. Just listen to Florence Foster Jenkins.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

My opinion is that all singers are musicians to a greater or lesser extent. I have heard it said that Pavarotti, Mirella Freni, and Ezio Pinza could not read music; if this is true (and keep in mind that I can't read music well either, so this is just speculation on my part), I would say, tentatively, that they were all "lesser" musicians than those singers (the majority, surely) who _can_ read music and, perhaps, even play a second instrument.

Leontyne Price is referred to up-thread as being someone whose beautiful timbre covered the fact that she was not a very probing musician. Well, I can't deny that she wasn't as nuanced as someone like Maria Callas; but having watched many singers' masterclasses via Youtube I am consistently astonished at how much thought goes into these aria/role interpretations: the greatest singers really do understand the music, and are often able to get the younger singers they're coaching to understand it too, and to translate it into sound. For example, there's this one video where Pavarotti is coaching a young tenor in "E luceaven le stelle" from TOSCA. He tells the tenor that if he elongates a particular note toward the end of the aria, then this will give the impression that Cavaradossi is just at that moment realizing the hopelessness of his situation. And when the tenor re-sings the aria with this change, the difference is indeed amazing! Clearly, Pavarotti knew what he was talking about when he made that suggestion. So I'd be cautious about suggesting that certain singers are lesser musician simply because I don't perceive them as very probing or nuanced, because I think it's safe to say that those singers put a great deal of thought into their interpretations; from watching masterclasses it's obvious to me that opera is a serious business. Maybe, then, it would be more accurate for me to say that a particular singer just didn't meet my personal expectations or preconceptions of how the role should sound -- or that there was some disconnect between the singer's intellectual understanding of the piece and her success in translating that understanding into _sound_ (Callas strikes me as someone with a naturally more "colorful" voice than most other sopranos, including Price). Again, I don't object to anyone saying that Callas was more nuanced than Price; I just wouldn't want the impression to be given that someone like Price was mindless or only concerned with timbre or not much of a musician.

Edited to add: I haven't heard Price's Handel, but I do own a compilation CD on which she sings Mozart's "Dove sono." There she certainly doesn't sound as though she's singing Verdi; the stylistic difference between it and the "Ritorna vincitor" that follows it is obvious.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I think if you ask an instrument player what they are they'd say," a musician."

If you ask a singer what they are they'd say, " a singer."


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

It's just occurred to me that in this thread we're going to have to make a distinction between musicality within an aria or role (i.e. one's "interpretation" of that aria or role) and the kind of musicality that distinguishes between composers/eras/styles (i.e. a singer shouldn't sing Mozart as though it's Wagner, or Bernstein as though it's Puccini).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> I think if you ask an instrument player what they are they'd say," a musician."
> 
> If you ask a singer what they are they'd say, " a singer."


I've been a singer, a pianist, an organist, and a composer. But if someone asked, "What are you?", I would reply, "A human being. Why? Is my fly down?"



Usually the inquiry is phrased, "What do you do?" A violinist would probably answer "I play the violin," and a composer would answer "I write music." Musicians specialize, and think of themselves as distinct from others whose areas of specialization are different. An opera singer would say "I sing opera" in order not to be confused with Andrea Bocelli.


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## Johann Sebastian Bach (Dec 18, 2015)

It annoys me that many members of choirs I conduct refer to orchestral players as "musicians" and, by implication, exclude themselves from the term.

Some of these singers are very fine amateur musicians but others are not. I have a few professional musicians singing in my choirs and not all of them are particularly musical.

I have had to teach a couple of professional opera singers arias before choral concerts because they cannot read music. The professional instrumentalists I work with in orchestras are, largely, very fine musicians. But a few are not.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I voted yes but it did give me pause when I first read it. My mind started wandering to the sexiest conductors like Lennie and Dudamel.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Itullian said:


> I think if you ask an instrument player what they are they'd say," a musician."
> 
> If you ask a singer what they are they'd say, " a singer."


If playing a physical instrument becomes the criteria for being a musician, where does that leave a conductor? While they almost certainly do play an instrument on the side, are they any different from a singer who probably also can play an instrument other than the voice.

P.S. It should be noted that there are very few conductors who I would categorize as singers ... yes they can make noise, but singing?!!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> I don't deny that for one moment. It was, without question, a fabulously beautiful instrument, and, as I said, there is a great deal of pleasure to be found in the sound itself. From that point of view, the earlier discs of the Prima Donna series are more satisfactory than the later ones, and I do enjoy them, but maybe piecemeal rather than at one sitting.






 This aria from Mephisstofole, L'atra notte is my favorite on the Prima Donna series. Great chest version. My favorite version of this aria


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Technically speaking in the UK a singer is not a musician (just look at the unions, Musician's Union for those that play an instrument and Equity for singers). However, I would argue that some are and some are not. Some singers display good musicianship and others do not (respecting the values of the notes, following markings and indications in the score etc.)

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Technically speaking in the UK a singer is not a musician (just look at the unions, *Musician's Union for those that play an instrument and Equity for singers*). However, I would argue that some are and some are not. Some singers display good musicianship and others do not (respecting the values of the notes, following markings and indications in the score etc.)
> 
> N.


So it is the semantics of trade union membership that decides musicianship?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Technically speaking in the UK a singer is not a musician (just look at the unions, Musician's Union for those that play an instrument and Equity for singers). However, I would argue that some are and some are not. Some singers display good musicianship and others do not (respecting the values of the notes, following markings and indications in the score etc.)
> 
> N.


True, singers are often forgiven for faults of musicianship that would prevent instrumentalists from getting hired. When your instrument is part of your person, its easy to think that it's you who's the center of attention and not the music you're making. And chances are you're substantially right.


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