# BARITONE TOURNAMENT (Bonus Matchup): Van Dam vs Massard



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Jose Van Dam, Belgium, 1940-






Robert Massard, France, 1925-






Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I have never heard of Massard but I was mightily impressed with his voice and his fine French accent.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

I caused me great pain not to vote for van Dam, who is one of my favorite singers, but Massard simply has more voice.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

To be honest I never heard Massard before and I think he's in a glorious voice here.

Van Dam is fine, too, but with less heft to his voice. Also, I wonder if he has to really catch his breath in

"Apostrophes, cris et tapages,
Poussés jusque à la fureur"

while Massard just rides along without any noticeable pause.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

nina foresti said:


> I have never heard of Massard but I was mightily impressed with his voice and his fine French accent.


Massard is the Escamillo on the Callas Carmen. There's also a fantastic French language Rigoletto with Alain Vanzo and Renee Doria. I wish that there were more recordings of him.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> Massard is the Escamillo on the Callas Carmen


Oh, you are correct of course, so I have heard him but my memory does not keep this maybe due to the fact Carmen is far from being my favorite opera....


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

I agree that Massard is really a magnificent singer, the Athanael on Doria's Thais that makes me have trouble with every other recording.

But my prejudice for Van Dam remains as one of the most beautiful voices I know and used with such constant art. One of the singers who is always in and never over the voice, explaining both his longevity and the quality of it all. Sometimes i wish for a little more of the frisson that Massard provides, though  

I see that you can make the comparison, but Escamillo is not the role I would choose to show what Van Dam does at his best.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

mparta said:


> I see that you can make the comparison, but Escamillo is not the role I would choose to show what Van Dam does at his best.


I agree, and although van Dam made some impressive operatic recordings (e.g. Amfortas, Jochanaan, the Dutchman), his best work is in French song and German Lieder.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

José Van Dam sounded more nuanced and stylish to me, even if his voice isn't as big as Massard's. It was a pleasure to hear the latter for the first time, however.


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

He's recorded several Lieder albums and Chansons, but my favorite, which as a label is quite a bit off the beaten track and i have no idea how I found it:









Listen to him juice up the Schumann, it's thrilling and the best version of these songs for me by far. It's the sap that so many wobbly dry singers lack, not to go too off but I listened last evening to Fischer-Dieskau shout and bark his way through Wolf lieder with Richter at the piano. there is a deep respect for the art of singing in Van Dam.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

This isn't subtle music, but Van Dam finds what expressive variety it's capable of. His diminuendo into "Toreador..." is as perfect as if he turned down the volume with a knob. Massard may have a bigger voice, but not a better one; it lacks brilliance and bite, and combined with a more generalized approach to the music and words it makes him a good but not a great Escamillo. This is close, but I have to go with Van Dam's projection of the character and more distinctive instrument.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Van Dam. More elegant and more accurate on the note values. Just nicer to listen to. Massard may be “native here, and to the manner born” but that’s not always a winner.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I'm giving this to Massard without a second thought. To my ears he has an easier time with the music & a more effortless delivery which aligns with who I perceive the cocky Toreador to be. Van Dam is Escamillo the thinking man, but I don't think Escamillo thinks, he just does! Massard's Escamillo sings like he's enjoying his position as the carefree superstar athlete that he is


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

mparta said:


> He's recorded several Lieder albums and Chansons, but my favorite, which as a label is quite a bit off the beaten track and i have no idea how I found it:
> 
> View attachment 149789
> 
> ...


And if you want to hear *all* of the Kerner Lieder:


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Neither is my favorite voice, and I need a Tibbett to care very much about this aria. So going with my first impression that I liked Massard more.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Hmmm. This is another tough one. I'll start by saying that I wasn't impressed with the orchestral performance on either of them, especially Massard. Massard is the more effortless performance, Van Dam the more dramatic. I'm going to vote, but I'm also going to have to listen to them both again a few times before I do.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I expected to be handing this to Van Dam, but atually I prefer, by a small margin, Massard. It's quite possible this has something to do with the fact that it's the version I know best, having lived with the Callas recording from which this is excerpted for around fifty years now, but Massard just has that bit more swagger. Van Dam is a fine artist, one of my favourite singers, but maybe he lavishes just a little bit more care on this music than it really needs. It's a simple statement of Escamillo's bragadoccio and I hear that more in Massard, so Massard it is.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

This is a close call, but I prefer Van Dam's more characterful singing.

N.


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

wkasimer said:


> And if you want to hear *all* of the Kerner Lieder:
> 
> View attachment 149797


I have that Forlane and i still advocate for the disc I posted, I think it's a better version and one of my favorite lieder recordings. (Plus the wonderful Ibert and Poulenc!! really soooooo good). I tend to get anything Van Dam does, he is a great singer. The Rene Gailly disc was an old LP and I think it still shows up on Amazon as a CD and vinyl.

Candy as a song disc, like Thomas Allen's Faure/Ravel/Poulenc and Thomas Allen's Poulenc Bestiaire with the Nash ensemble. Simon Keenlyside first disc Schubert and Brahms. But I digress...


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

mparta said:


> I have that Forlane and i still advocate for the disc I posted, I think it's a better version and one of my favorite lieder recordings. (Plus the wonderful Ibert and Poulenc!! really soooooo good). I tend to get anything Van Dam does, he is a great singer. The Rene Gailly disc was an old LP and I think it still shows up on Amazon as a CD and vinyl.


I'm sure that you're right, but the Rene Gailly disc is priced a little out of my range...


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

If it's one of those silly $906 things.. I don't know what that is, they do that a lot, there's some thing that eludes me, they know they're not going to sell it at that price

Probably find it somewhere else with a brief search, I usually google and then go by images to take me to an alternative, ebay, Presto, HB direct, whatever. Unfortunately i almost always find what i want somewhere 


wkasimer said:


> I'm sure that you're right, but the Rene Gailly disc is priced a little out of my range...


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I found Van Dam's words more difficult to understand under his thick tone in this video, plus his occasional stentorian highlighting of some words. Massard's clearer voice, leaner tone pleased me more in his video. Also, I detest this aria, so it was a chore to listen repeatedly to it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> I found Van Dam's words more difficult to understand under his thick tone in this video, plus his occasional stentorian highlighting of some words. Massard's clearer voice, leaner tone pleased me more in his video. Also, I detest this aria, so it was a chore to listen repeatedly to it.


Toreador,

Don't spit on the floor!

Use the cuspidor.

Whaddya think it's for?


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## Gabriele Adorno (May 30, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> I caused me great pain not to vote for van Dam, who is one of my favorite singers, but Massard simply has more voice.


My feeling exactly. I really like van Dam and hoped he would win this, but I end up a little disappointed.

Neither of these two can touch Tibbett, or Raimondi for that matter.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Escamillo is such a cardboard character - he consists of one bragadocious aria and little else - that his voice is all he has to make an impression with, and it had better be a great one. Both of these guys make the cut, but only just.


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## SanyiKocka (May 6, 2020)

For me van Dam is more bass than a baritone, especially in Italian operas. Actually he always belongs to my "Spanish Royal Family" as the ghost of Charles V.


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