# Mahler's "das Lied Von Der Erde" Version



## MaxB (Jan 3, 2013)

Just bought the schoenberg chamber version, do you prefer the original or chamber version?


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

Posted this a couple days ago:

Have you heard the Schonberg/Riehn chamber version of Mahler's DLVDE?

I like it more than the full orchestration.
*ducks again*






*The link is not my preferred recording but the picture is; Kenneth Slowik did it superbly, as well as a fantastic recording of the 4th with Songs of the Wayfarer:


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I quite prefer the original, but as with most music, form of the day and the artists involved will ultimately decide my choice, not least because I never let myself to exclude any option!

/ptr


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The original. Mahler knew what he was doing.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I like both. I find Schoenberg's reductions which were done for the Society for Private Musical Performances to be fascinating. These are valuable in hearing the structure and essence of the works, as well. Any alternate view or extra information which aids in a more complete understanding of the works is worth a listen.







Those Smithsonian Chamber Players versions look very interesting; thanks for posting that, Mitchell. As I understand, they use gut strings on the violins. I have Strauss' Metamorphosen by them. Very good reviews on that 4th Symphony disc.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2014)

The original orchestral version. I don't begrudge the chamber version, but have never found it superior. Mahler was certainly not a reductionist. Not only do you have the beauty in his pieces, but also the sheer power of the orchestral forces that he summons to express that beauty.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Schoenberg's chamber version is interesting... just as are the orchestral versions of Schubert's lieder orchestrated by Reger, Webern, Brahms, Offenbach, etc... but I far prefer the original. This is even more true due to the wealth of absolutely stunning performances by any number of the finest singers and conductors:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I look forward to hearing the chamber reduction as done by Schoenberg. I'm sure I would still prefer the original over the reduction.

Well-done reductions of larger orchestrated works can be fascinating and edifying. Those are often done to make it possible to perform those works with smaller forces, out of economy as well as seizing another opportunity to readily present the works in smaller venues. Expert reductions are, no matter how good, a bit analog to an x-ray of the score, and because of that leanness, can point the ear more to the 'essentials' of the piece. (In a reverse scenario, Schoenberg's orchestration of Brahms Piano Quartet in G minor was so well done that when performed, it quickly got dubbed as "Brahms' Fifth" 

Many a later full orchestration by the composer of a work originally conceived of for smaller forces was done not out of aesthetic preference, but for practical reasons -- symphonic organizations are loathe to pare their full forces down to chamber orchestra dimensions on a program because it is not what the audience expects, and many a general listener will usually opt for the fuller sound, regardless if the chamber version is actually superior.

Schoenberg's _Verklärte Nacht_ is originally for string sextet: it would have gained far less exposure (and less revenue for the composer) if he had not re-scored it for a full string orchestra. I prefer only the chamber version.

Aaron Copland's _Appalachian Spring_ was originally for a chamber group of thirteen instruments. Again, though the composer -- known as a fine orchestrator -- re-worked the suite from that score for large symphonic ensemble, I prefer the hyper-lucid and transparent original chamber version.

John Adams' Shaker Loops is originally for seven strings, and that too has gotten the greater exposure (and number of performances and record sales) in the composer's later version for string orchestra. The composer says he still prefers his original version for seven strings.

Some of Mahler's song cycles were first orchestrated (from their piano and voice original) by the composer for chamber orchestra. Again, the opportunity for greatest exposure and number of performances was for fuller orchestra, and those are the most frequently performed and recorded. Lately, Thomas Hanson has recorded some Mahler songs using Mahler's original chamber orchestral setting, and many have commented on how much more appropriate this version sounds. I am 'convinced' the chamber orchestration is exactly what Mahler wanted, and is best.

I can not think of an instance where a good piece has been 'bettered' by either a larger orchestration after an original chamber version, or vice verso. When those altered versions are the pared down chamber version, if well done, they are an alternative and very interesting listen.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Here's a good one:







The Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun is especially good.

Also this, which I have not heard:


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Side-tracking I know, but I'd highly recommend Hans Zender "composed reinterpretation" of Die Winterreise. As someone who struggles a bit with Lieder and early romanticism, it certainly open my eyes to this work






Also, there's Till Eulenspiegel Einmal Anders which is some lively fun:


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## julianoq (Jan 29, 2013)

As recommended by Mitchell in the "Current Listening" thread, I listened to this version last friday. I am not sure if it is better than the original (I think it is probably not), but it was a very pleasurable and interesting listening. I specially enjoyed the prominent piano clarity. I will probably listen to both from now on.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

dgee said:


> Side-tracking I know, but I'd highly recommend Hans Zender "composed reinterpretation" of Die Winterreise. As someone who struggles a bit with Lieder and early romanticism, it certainly open my eyes to this work


Different strokes for different folks. I found these unbearable


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I've forgotten which YouTube video I watched recently with a Mahler song (I auditioned in only a few moments.)

The band was comprised of a handful of strings, piano, a few winds, _and a harmonium!_ It seemed very odd, "Mahler on a shoestring budget," the music sounded fine, and the registration had a a character with a quirky charm all its own


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

I like both of them too. Just one thing, the "original version" was made for piano and voices. It's very interesting to listen,


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2015)

I have the Zender-Schubert. It's really weird (not sure yet if it's weird in a good way) but a cool perspective.

Edit: I was more sure of Sciarrino's ensemble versions of a few little Gesualdo pieces.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

Apart from the possible merits of reinterpretations of major works -about which I am not sure-there is no doubt that in the years up to the time that recorded music became affordable-say the 1930s??-Chamber versions of large-scale works were ideal at a time when the latter were infrequently performed or put on in places to which only a limited number of people had access.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Of all the different versions, I would still consider the original (orchestral version for tenor and alto) the best, ahead of the orchestral version for tenor and baritone. The reduced forces versions have their merits though, but I prefer the version for tenor and alto and piano over the chamber orchestra one. In particular the tenor, who does not have Wagner Heldentenor qualities to combat the usual stunning orchestral forces, can show more expression than usual, and with the alto I have less problems actually hearing the words. The original version with Cantonese text instead of German is clearly inferior though imo.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Of course, I prefer the original full orchestral version. Mahler knew what he was doing. He needed no help from Schoenberg.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2015)

Can anyone verify that Schoenberg actually thought any of the composers he transcribed... "needed help"?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

nathanb said:


> Can anyone verify that Schoenberg actually thought any of the composers he transcribed... "needed help"?


Of course he didn't. The purpose of his transcriptions was practical: to get the works performed, usually.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2015)

Mahlerian said:


> Of course he didn't. The purpose of his transcriptions was practical: to get the works performed, usually.


Though I've read his little String Quartet Concerto was a bit of a "help" - not a transcription at that point though.

I haven't heard his version of Das Lied, but his other Mahler lieder are excellent.


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