# Coming back on the rebound...



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

With themes and textures in a work, I mean.

The first work I know of with something from the beginning coming back at the end was Haydn's _Symphony #103 'Drumroll,'_ the drumroll of the title coming back in the final movement.

Of course Beethoven really advanced this way of doing things in many of his famous works. The way he transforms themes from the beginning of his pieces and brings them back in quite different guises at the end is pretty amazing. One of my favourites in this regard is his _String Quartet in A minor, Op. 132_, one of the late quartets.

Many composers after Beethoven until recent times have done this sort of thing. Elliott Carter in his _String Quartet #1_ does something quite similar to Beethoven's _Op. 132_, changing the initial theme in mood and vibe when it comes back at the end. Penderecki in his _Symphony #1_ does a thing similar to Haydn's _Drumroll _- but not with a kettle drum but an orchestral whip and rattle thing that frame the work.

Of course, some composers didn't do it, and in the early 20th century other ways of dealing with themes and textures where developed. Eg. the block-like structures of Debussy (in _Jeux_), and also Janacek & Varese who didn't care much for German models. So too Tchaikovsky in his _Piano Concerto #1 in B-flat minor, Op. 23_, he opted not to bring that heroic introductory theme or idea back (not preventing this from becomig one of his most popular works).

*So, I'm asking your opinion about this in the poll and also for a discussion what you think about this type of unifying or framing technique.

Do you have any works you like that do this?

Do you feel a kind of satisfaction and resolution that I do when the theme rebounds at the end like a boomerang?

Or other thoughts?*

Although I gave examples in instrumental music, you can discuss any type of classical genres you like.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy, came to mind. Also, Liszt' Sonata in B minor.

The first movement of Schubert's Great C major; the opening theme played by the two horns, came back in the movement's end with the full force of the orchestra playing.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Context, of course has once again everything to do with it - and what period / era style you might be thinking of, and how well the composer wrote in that mode of 'theme' where it might come rebounding - Brahms, yeah: isn't it in the Academic Festival Overture where he brings something back at the end which by then is a red flag of recognition for the listener? Of course, that is Brahms, part of the period, and he was a master architect.

I'm happy leaving the station making the trip and returning to the station, but it is not some compelling requirement for my comfort when listening to a piece. I'm also quite happy with the conservative Barber Piano Concerto with its First Movement in E minor, Second in C-sharp minor, the third in B-flat minor - not exactly going home, whether by 'theme' or key plan.

So no, that "Longing to go home, or start out where the journey began," is not important to me, and I'm happy it is not done so often, even in older era music. If it had become 'formulaic' it would have become boring really quickly.

Handled well, the return is a surprise and a nice symmetrical rounding off. 

There is a type of fiction writing where the author reminds you, imo, far too often of 'what went before.' - you get the feeling that either the general readership is really stupid, or that it is assumed you the reader will read one or two chapters on a weekend, then pick up where you left off - ergo the reminders. 

Some music can have similar 'reminders' for the listener - use of the theme can recall just that sort of 'remind / prompt, and I find those either obvious or irritating.

Unless someone today is writing in a very conservative or neoclassical style, I wouldn't want, nor expect it.

ADD: Beethoven's Diabelli Variations charge continually forward, continually evolve, and never look back, let alone harken back aloud...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I really don't care if the tune comes back at the end. There are far more interesting things in music than _form._


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

I am not a composer of music, so I am reliant on the creative process of others. When I listen to a piece the first time I like to be amazed that it is so perfectly constructed for whatever it wants to say, whether that music is from the medieval period or whether it is contemporary, or any period inbetween. 

Twee pieces are the ones which leave me wondering if the form had changed, what would ... It's one of the ways I know I am listening to rubbish. The person who used to share a house with me found my eclectic taste in music quite odd, and the fact that there were classical music pieces which I considered to be noise pollution totally amazed him.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm ambivalent about this kind of thing; it's interesting but not something I wish they all did.

What I do think it's really cool is when themes from previous pieces appear in later works by the same composer, like Strauss quoting Death and Transformation at the end of his Four Last Songs and Bruckner quoting the his Mass in D and his 7th symphony at the very end of his 9th symphony. It's the ultimate unifying device.


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## EarthBoundRules (Sep 25, 2011)

*YES.* One of my very favourite compositional techniques, and can make me re-evaluate a piece that I normally wouldn't pay much attention to.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Interesting responses, thanks to all.

I enjoyed your post PetrB & agree with what you said.

Re Brahms, he was a master of this, I really like his kind of organic development of themes. I've recently been listening to Carlos Chavez's symphonies, and he really was influenced and fascinated by what Brahms did, as well as Beethoven. But he wasn't just rehashing them, I'd say.

Re the kind of reminder or prompt effect, I take it that this kind of thing is what irritates some people about Mahler, who often does this, and also quotes previous symphonies in another symphony (which Manxfeeder touches on re Bruckner & R. Strauss). I don't mind it, I quite like it in some ways, but I'm not really a Mahlerite. But maybe it's a related issue, eg. self-quotation.

As for this -



PetrB said:


> ...
> Unless someone today is writing in a very conservative or neoclassical style, I wouldn't want, nor expect it.
> ...


Wierd you say that, neo-classical would imply going back to the Classical and Baroque eras for inspiration. But for all of Baroque, and most of Classical Era (up to late Haydn), things where not bought back. So if someone today doesn't bring back themes or textures (etc.), I don't know if it's old or new, given what's gone on in between.

I know Edouard Lalo's _Symphonie Espagnole _is not really a symphony, but closer in structure to a Baroque suite. I don't think it's thematically linked. So maybe more accurately it should've been called _Suite Espagnole_? A number of composers where doing this type of thing then, second half of 19th century, and in their everything-old-is-new-again approach, they were bucking the thematically unified trend of that century and looking forward to neo-classicism in early 20th century. So it's interesting how a thing could be old and new (or a new take on old things?) at the same time. Other works like that which I can think of are Grieg's _Holberg Suite _and things like Bizet's _Symphony in C_, harking back to the Classical Era which had long passed.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Handled well, _*the return is a surprise*_ and a nice symmetrical rounding off.


PetrB's post and this sentence especially pretty much summarize my thoughts on the return as well. In a lot of cases I don't enjoy it. The surprise factor and being unpredictable is very important, yet it still has to sound organic as if the piece was meant to go there, without being redundant. I find the first movements of Mahler's 2nd and 3rd symphony, an example of where the return doesn't work well. It sounds too predictable as just a rehash of the introductory themes slightly modified. I find these sections unnecessary and boring, and I feel they just add extra time to already immensely long works.


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

I'd say yes. I'm a simple person, and simple joys like this can just make me giddy. However, I'd want it to feel organic and as natural progression of the music, rather than formulaic 'just because'.

For example, in Tchaikovsky's 5th, the finale reprising the theme from the 2nd movement really pumps me up, and brings about a glorious ending to the symphony. Is it cheesy/melodramatic (things Tchaikovsky may have been accused of)? Maybe so, but it sure brings a smile to my face.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

tdc said:


> PetrB's post and this sentence especially pretty much summarize my thoughts on the return as well. In a lot of cases I don't enjoy it. The surprise factor and being unpredictable is very important, yet it still has to sound organic as if the piece was meant to go there, without being redundant. I find the first movements of Mahler's 2nd and 3rd symphony, an example of where the return doesn't work well. It sounds too predictable as just a rehash of the introductory themes slightly modified. I find these sections unnecessary and boring, and I feel they just add extra time to already immensely long works.


Yeah, well that length factor is why I generally don't gel with the late Romantic period. & also the overly rich orchestration. Of course, I do have favourites by guys like Mahler. I can't comment on the specifics of those two symphonies, but my favourite symphony by him is his 4th, which is his most thematically tight symphony, and for a Mahler symphony, not too long (about 1 hour).



Llyranor said:


> I'd say yes. I'm a simple person, and simple joys like this can just make me giddy. However, I'd want it to feel organic and as natural progression of the music, rather than formulaic 'just because'.
> 
> For example, in Tchaikovsky's 5th, the finale reprising the theme from the 2nd movement really pumps me up, and brings about a glorious ending to the symphony. Is it cheesy/melodramatic (things Tchaikovsky may have been accused of)? Maybe so, but it sure brings a smile to my face.


He gets a bit of a bad rap, and Tchaikovsky was very critical of his 5th, basically said it was rubbish. But I think it's a very innovative and bold work, casting the symphony into a theme and variations type work. His last 3 symphonies are very innovative and imaginative.

He didn't bring back the theme in the first piano concerto, but he does in the _Piano Trio_, in a most ingenious and unexpected way. He doesn't change it at all, but changes the setting. The work ends with a funeral march, in memory of Nikolay Rubinstein, after an upbeat final variation that made me think (upon first listen) that this will end kind of happily or resolutely. Well it doesn't, the piano just kind of gets quieter and fades out, like a funeral cortege moving away from you into the distance. He was amazing at bringing things back in these kinds of very unexpected, but unifying ways, and kind of sounding to be inevitable at the same time. I don't often say this but he was pure genius, his intellect matching his emotional power.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I don't deliberately expect the main theme to "return at the end" as my favourite way to round off a piece. It's all about the way the whole movement is handled from start to finish as a whole. I think this was mentioned above. Sometimes you do get this feeling that the composer was just "trying too hard" by returning the theme at the end, other times not at all but a masterly way to round something off (e.g. Mozart's fugal finish to symphony #41). I noticed ballet music often employed themes again at the end/towards the end but that has more to do with its context in the ballet than as a compositional means for musical development (in the sense that you hear the recapitulation of the classical sonata; forgive me if I am wrong, I'm no musician). So overall, I don't necessarily expect it (that would be rather dull if I expected it in every piece) and I actually never given it much thought until this thread!


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I like when glimpses of the finale are teased throughout the entire piece, only to unfold at the very end making it seem familiar although you're just hearing it for the first time. That, and every other possible way to write a piece.


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## Guest (May 22, 2012)

Correct me if I am wrong, but are you simply referring to sonata form? In sonata form, you have the introductory exposition of the tonal structures, which are then developed, and finally resolved in the recapitulation at the end. This form of composition was quite prevalent particularly in the classical period, and Beethoven was probably one of its greatest proponents. Typically this would be how the introductory movement of a work was composed, but frequently, and particularly with Beethoven, the entire work could be composed in sonata form, such that the first movement could be a self-contained sonata form, and also be the exposition, which is then developed in the succeeding movements, and then recapitulated in the final movement. I believe the romantic period also used this form extensively.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

If you're talking to me, Doc, I guess you're pretty much right. I was just thinking without composers about some of my favorite ways to develop an ending and I was actually thinking along the lines of symphonies but Beethoven being at the very top for me, I would also be logical that my mind went directly there. I truly do like every approach, however, so long as I like the music being played.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

DrMike said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but are you simply referring to sonata form? In sonata form, you have the introductory exposition of the tonal structures, which are then developed, and finally resolved in the recapitulation at the end. This form of composition was quite prevalent particularly in the classical period, and Beethoven was probably one of its greatest proponents. Typically this would be how the introductory movement of a work was composed, but frequently, and particularly with Beethoven, the entire work could be composed in sonata form, such that the first movement could be a self-contained sonata form, and also be the exposition, which is then developed in the succeeding movements, and then recapitulated in the final movement. I believe the romantic period also used this form extensively.


Not necessarily just sonata form, could be ternary, rounded binary, rondo, etc...


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Recapitulation in unconventional ways is one of my favorite techniques in music. Prokofiev uses it in his Piano Sonatas, particularly 2,6,8 and 9th sonatas. The 9th sonata is particularly interesting because besides recapping the 1st mvmt in the 4th, he _foreshadows _mvmts too, like the 1st foreshadowing the 2nd, and the 3rd foreshadowing the 4th. It's a really unusual, cyclical "never-ending" sonata, and love it for that.

Kalinnikov's 1st symphony uses recapitulation by using the modified rondo form, something like ABACAC'. A is the finale mvmt's main theme, but B is theme from 1st mvmt, and C is 2nd mvmt theme. In the end, C takes over as the main anthem.

Also, Glazunov made his wonderful 4th symphony on the idea of recapitulation. It's set up like a triangle, with the 3rd mvmt recapping elements from the 1st and 2nd mvmts, and at one point, puts elements from all 3 mvmts juxtaposed almost instantaneously.





All new ideas until :
6:24 1st recapitulation, from 2nd mvmt being juxtaposed with 3rd mvmts main themes
6:52 2nd recapitulation from 2nd mvmt transformed by new meter
6:57 3nd recapitulation from 1st mvmt, suddenly interposed after 2nd mvmt theme, with transformation to major key.
9:40 4th recapitulation from 1st mvmt
10:17 5th recapitulation from 1st mvmt, with development of 2 themes juxtaposed in a way that wasn't done in the 1st.
11:14 6th recapitulation from 1st mvmt, with development of being juxtaposed to 3rd mvmt's themes.
After that, coda-climax of original themes.

These, among many others, are some of my favorite examples.


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## mensch (Mar 5, 2012)

I really like it, especially if it's deftly done like in a lot of Beethoven's pieces. Schubert also uses it to create tension, in the "Molto moderato" of his Piano Sonate No. 21 in B flat (D.960), for example.

César Franck's "Prélude, Choral et Fugue" is also an example where the underlying theme is constantly transformed and pushed to the forefront at key points.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> ... I noticed ballet music often employed themes again at the end/towards the end but that has more to do with its context in the ballet than as a compositional means for musical development (in the sense that you hear the recapitulation of the classical sonata; forgive me if I am wrong, I'm no musician)...


Well, the ballets of Leonard Bernstein for one are basically like symphonies, he saw them as being as thematically united as that. In works like _Fancy Free _and _Dybbuk_, he makes a big unifying statement at the end. In the case of _Fancy Free_, it's quite an amazing modern type jazz fugue bringing together the main ideas, very impressive.

Another modern American ballet like that, bringing things back at the end, is Copland's _Billy the Kid.
_
I have a feeling Tchaikovsky's ballets are similarly summed up in their finales, but it's been a while since I've heard them. Maybe someone who is more familiar with these works can let us know.



mensch said:


> ...
> César Franck's "Prélude, Choral et Fugue" is also an example where the underlying theme is constantly transformed and pushed to the forefront at key points.


Yes, I'd forgotten Franck, who was great at doing this. I also like his organ works, esp. that one. But it took me a while to get used to them, they are quite serious. Another one is his famous _Symphonic Variations for piano and orchestra_. He really took Liszt's concepts/practices of _thematic transformation _to a whole new level.


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