# Aida vs Tristan und Isolde, which do you prefer and why?



## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

I bought my wife Aida on Blue Ray last week, and she got totally caught up with it. Previously we watched Tristan and Isolde and she couldn't get into it at all. So I am asking, which do you prefer and why, Aida or Tristan.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Aida. Verdi


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Definitely Tristan und Isolde. I don't see how anyone would vote otherwise.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Definitely Tristan und Isolde. I don't see how anyone would vote otherwise.


Wagner sucks walleyed woodpecker eggs, is why.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Definitely Tristan und Isolde. I don't see how anyone would vote otherwise.


yaknow... wagner...


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Tristan und Isolde = Nobel Prize
Aïda = Daytime Emmy


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Wagner sucks walleyed woodpecker eggs, is why.


I love it when you get all straw-sucking hillbilly on us, Trolly.


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

I like both, and while Aida has some nicer moments, Tristan is generally more exciting and a bit more heartbreaking


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Tristan is a tour de force which rips through me and puts me in a state of mind apart from the world.

Aida is an entertaining and dramatic work with some great music.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Definitely Tristan und Isolde. I don't see how anyone would vote otherwise.


Definitely Aida. I don't see how anyone would vote otherwise.


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## slowjazz (Aug 29, 2011)

Ehmm...this question is like which you prefer cream chocolate cake or caviar? how can one respond?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

slowjazz said:


> Ehmm...this question is like which you prefer cream chocolate cake or caviar? how can one respond?


With food I would usually eat both options at once.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Tristan und Isolde = Nobel Prize
> Aïda = Daytime Emmy


i can't imagine this question being taken seriously at all.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

*VERDI* - Aida

I like the music and singing style of Verdi better, although I have a large collection of Wagner I much prefer my Verdi works


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

*I really don't want to say anything bad about Aïda...*

... because, you see, it might be the best thing Verdi ever wrote.

However, my vote will come as surprise to no-one... so let me support it, in as objective a manner as I can manage:

As I said, _Aïda_ is a great opera. One of the best ever written, I think. 
However, an educated conversance of the music of *Tristan und Isolde* is mandatory for the understanding of much of the Western Art Music that followed after.

I know I've riffed on this elsewhere, but as long as it's functionally relevant, 
anybody else notice the many plot similarities between _Aïda_ and _Rienzi?_

The opera's lovers, Radames & Aïda Rienzi & Irene-
are ill-fated because they're allied to warring factions, the Egyptians & Ethiopians Plebians & Patricians-
Radames Rienzi leads his forces to victory, and grants mercy to the vanquished, led by 
Amonasro Orsini & Colonna- who proceed to plot against the victors in spite of this mercy.
Radames Rienzi is doomed by the people who once hailed him, and the 
opera ends in a dramatic scene with the lovers dying together in-
a burial crypt a burning Capitol building.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I love it when you get all straw-sucking hillbilly on us, Trolly.


It's usually grass, _mama_. You grasp the stalk just below the leaves and pull straight up. The inner stalk pulls out of the sheath. Tender, chewy, and even has a nice flavor.

"Tender, chewy, and even has a nice flavor" does not at all describe Wagner's music though.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I prefer _Aida _because, as a rule, I prefer Verdi's music to Wagner's. And that's just a personal preference, nothing more.

BTW, real hillbillies chew tobaccky, not grass. And straw's what we makes our hats from.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

slowjazz said:


> Ehmm...this question is like which you prefer cream chocolate cake or caviar? how can one respond?


No, tht's easy. Caviar. But it's about 30 years since I have eaten the real stuff.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

MAuer said:


> I prefer _Aida _because, as a rule, I prefer Verdi's music to Wagner's. And that's just a personal preference, nothing more.
> 
> BTW, real hillbillies chew tobaccky, not grass. And straw's what we makes our hats from.


Midwest + hillbilly has to be Ozarks, eh? That's a different breed from the northern Appalachians sort. We'uns don't wear straw hats, and we treat strangers better than they probably ought to be.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> *VERDI* - Aida
> 
> I like the music and singing style of Verdi better, although I have a large collection of Wagner I much prefer my Verdi works


Whatttttttttttttttttttttt


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Whatttttttttttttttttttttt


yes yes yesssssssss.......Verdi is my clear winner!

We have 6 Verdi fans according to poll, we are strong and proud :lol:


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Midwest + hillbilly has to be Ozarks, eh? That's a different breed from the northern Appalachians sort. We'uns don't wear straw hats, and we treat strangers better than they probably ought to be.


Naw, way east of that. If you remember the old joke about the difference between a hick and a hillbilly being the Ohio River, I'm technically a hick (north of the river.) :lol:


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> No, tht's easy. Caviar. But it's about 30 years since I have eaten the real stuff.


My father was a silver service waiter. He worked one gig where there was Beluga on the menu. There was a huge barney about it because even then Beluga was ecologically problematic. The Beluga was not served. My father brought two jars of the stuff home. My parents gave us some to taste (on an egg with a slice of bread) so that we would always be able to say we'd eaten Beluga caviar. It was the only time I have ever eaten Beluga caviar. Sometimes I wonder what those two little jars of Beluga must have cost ... and then to go home with the staff!


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I've personally never been able to get into Aida. I generally like Verdi but I just find this one rather boring for the most part...I've listened to it a couple times but it never really captured my attention. Now Tristan und Isolde, on the other hand...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I've been listening to Verdi for thirty years. I love Aida but I'm perhaps over familiar with it.

I've only started to appreciate Wagner in the last couple of years, and I hated Tristan first time I heard it. I like it very much now, but I've only heard it about 4 times.

So how can I possibly choose between the two?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Whatttttttttttttttttttttt


I know. I still can't believe they didn't vote for *Ligeti*


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I know. I still can't believe they didn't vote for *Ligeti*


Stop trying to make Ligeti happen. It's not going to happen. There's only room for one inane uncompromising moron on this board, and it is I w/ Wagner. When you've gotten 11 infractions complete with temporary ban for Ligeti, then we can talk.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> yes yes yesssssssss.......Verdi is my clear winner!
> 
> We have 6 Verdi fans according to poll, we are strong and proud :lol:


Your assistant signing the libretto to you during concerts must be distracting to your fellow operagoers.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Stop trying to make Ligeti happen. It's not going to happen. There's only room for one inane uncompromising moron on this board, and it is I w/ Wagner. When you've gotten 11 infractions complete with temporary ban for Ligeti, then we can talk.


nice...
I used to think I was an inane uncompromising moron perpetuating stereotypes of Wagner fans every where, but then Messiaen.

(I'd never compete with you anyway, couchie!)


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Stop trying to make Ligeti happen. It's not going to happen. There's only room for one inane uncompromising moron on this board, and it is I w/ Wagner. When you've gotten 11 infractions complete with temporary ban for Ligeti, then we can talk.


I've been banned from 11 different internet forums for going on about *Ligeti* before I came here.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I've been banned from 11 different internet forums for going on about *Ligeti* before I came here.


pics or didn't happen


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

Big Verdi fan here. Verdi never composed music as sublime as this, though:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

^But Verdi's love duets aren't so long that they have to be uploaded to YouTube in three parts. But in saying that, I would never doze off to Tristan und Isolde. Verdi's love duets....maybe.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

A strange comparison i must say. But i much prefer Tristan und Isolde.

The problem with watching Aida (as i see it) on DVD is that the versions available are pretty poor. I hope it was the Arena Verona version with Martinucci as Radames and Maria Chiara as Aida as this is the best of the lot!

However, it tend to be all stand and deliver stuff and trumpets blaring. 

Give me the more complex Tristan und Isolde - better plot, deeper characterisation and gorgeous music.

No doubting Verdi's genius but Aida was not his best.

I would also say that Wagner is like soft blue cheeses - its not everyones taste and it takes time and repeated attempts before you fall under its spell - similar to Berg actually.

Enjoy


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## notreally (Oct 25, 2011)

I love Verdi but Aida is one of my least favourite operas so I choose Tristan.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

I love Verdi, though Aida is not one of my favorites. Wagner, no matter how awesome his music might be, can not get under my skin and is very far from my heart. For me, it is either boring, or amazingly beautiful, but only in bits and pieces. So, I easily choose Aida...


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

Verdi is miles inferior to Wagner. just in general. some people are just wrong.


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## REP (Dec 8, 2011)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> The opera's lovers,[/COLOR] Radames & Aïda Rienzi & Irene-
> are ill-fated because they're allied to warring factions, the Egyptians & Ethiopians Plebians & Patricians



Rienzi and Irene are brother and sister, not lovers!

REP


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Okay then... scratch "lovers" and insert "male & female lead."

The larger point remains, which is- Wagner could well have had this _déjà vu_ feeling when learning about the plot arc of "Aïda."


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

REP said:


> Rienzi and Irene are brother and sister, not lovers!
> 
> REP


I wrote an opera where the brother and sister were lovers.....


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I wrote an opera where the brother and sister were lovers.....


Yeah, so did Wagner. It's called _Die Walküre_.:lol:


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

Of course, in my answer, I need to factor in the fact that I have seen Aida live several times and Tristan and Isolde never.


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## FranzKroger (Apr 6, 2012)

I love Tristan and Isolde as opera and as a book - can't even count how many times I've read it  so it's obvious, that it is always a big thing for me to hear it and watch it in the opera


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

*Tristan und Isolde* is perhaps the only thing that *Wagner* ever wrote that I liked, however I voted for *Aida* so there!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Lenfer said:


> *Tristan und Isolde* is perhaps the only thing that *Wagner* ever wrote that I liked, however I voted for *Aida* so there!


Noooooooooo!


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

Easy.

Never heard Aida. The closest I got was seeing the first few minutes on YouTube, then I got put off seeing the horrendous costume (it was Placido Domingo not wearing any pants. And the music wasn't that impressive for the first few minutes either).

Tristan und Isolde is one of my addiction.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

eorrific said:


> Never heard Aida. The closest I got was seeing the first few minutes on YouTube, then I got put off seeing the horrendous costume (it was Placido Domingo not wearing any pants. And the music wasn't that impressive for the first few minutes either).


Yes, only gorgeous ballet dancers can get away with wearing tights in public.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

"I stand in awe and terror before _Tristan_" - Giuseppe Verdi


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## slowjazz (Aug 29, 2011)

AmericanGesamtkunstwerk said:


> Verdi is miles inferior to Wagner. just in general. some people are just wrong.


I'd use the therm different, not inferior or superior. In Verdi we can find some things that would never find in Wagner, and viceversa. Wagner had in fact erased many things that were characteristic of the opera and many great achievements like contrapunctal dialogues of voices, multiple text quartets, trios for ex were lost with wagner.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

AmericanGesamtkunstwerk said:


> Verdi is miles inferior to Wagner. just in general. some people are just wrong.


I disagree. Miles?


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

slowjazz said:


> I'd use the therm different, not inferior or superior. In Verdi we can find some things that would never find in Wagner, and viceversa. Wagner had in fact erased many things that were characteristic of the opera and many great achievements like contrapunctal dialogues of voices, multiple text quartets, trios for ex were lost with wagner.


That was because for him he was pulling dramatic expression towards a total coherence, a naturalism that pointed towards the 20th century's "suspension of disbelief". Part of that was losing things you mentioned that he saw as silly, overblown, compensating, and italian/french. Once his new language of musikdrama and staged narrative was in place, however, subsequent composer-dramatists have returned to all those things you talked about (sometimes co-existing with Wagner's philosophies of opera writing). some of Strauss' operas begin to take this step, Henze's "Elegy for Young Lovers" does a pretty cool job at attempting the balance.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

Couchie said:


> "I stand in awe and terror before _Tristan_" - Giuseppe Verdi


Couchie, I have heard a similar bit with Puccini. Apparently, he said that all he wanted to accomplish in his life was a love duet that could face up to those in Tristan. Someone told me this, but since then I haven't been able to find a source. Would (you or) anyone know anything?


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I know I've riffed on this elsewhere, but as long as it's functionally relevant,
> anybody else notice the many plot similarities between _Aïda_ and _Rienzi?_
> 
> The opera's lovers, Radames & Aïda Rienzi & Irene-
> ...


As has already been mentioned, Rienzi and Irene are not lovers, but yes, these are interesting similarities. I think it may be because both _Rienzi _and _Aïda _are basically in the style of French grand opera. Such operas tend to have certain elements in common. I'm not very familiar with Meyerbeer's operas, but perhaps some of them might also have similar plots.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Aida. Last time I watched a Tristan I couldn’t wait for the idiot to die. Then in the end I saw him walk across the stage as the lights weren’t properly out! :lol:


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Aida. Last time I watched a Tristan I couldn't wait for the idiot to die. Then in the end I saw him walk across the stage as the lights weren't properly out! :lol:


My brain was a step ahead of my eyes. At first I thought you meant you saw the production (on video, conducted by Barenboim I think) where Tristan stands up at the end!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

adriesba said:


> My brain was a step ahead of my eyes. At first I thought you meant you saw the production (on video, conducted by Barenboim I think) where Tristan stands up at the end!


No it was at the Met. Someone didn't dim the lights properly and we saw him cross the stage. tristan is a sitting duck for that set of thing being in a generally ridiculous opera form. Flagstad was performing once with Melchior, who by this time had sung so many Tristans he was bored out of his mind with the part, and as she was about to sing her Liebestod, she noticed he had gone to sleep and was snoring! She had to kick him awake before she started! :lol:


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## IgorS (Jan 7, 2018)

Easy one - Aida! Actually, I prefer anyone of Verdi operas above anything from Wagner.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

eorrific said:


> Easy.
> 
> Never heard Aida. The closest I got was seeing the first few minutes on YouTube, then I got put off seeing the horrendous costume (it was Placido Domingo not wearing any pants. And the music wasn't that impressive for the first few minutes either).
> 
> Tristan und Isolde is one of my addiction.


That is some logic. You've never heard Aida (apart from seeing Domingo without pants) and you prefer Tristan.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> "I stand in awe and terror before _Tristan_" - Giuseppe Verdi


Actually it's my behind that sits in terror at the thought of five hours glued to a seat during Tristan! :lol:

And that simply awful Mark monologue where you hope that Melot will stab the old bore instead of tristan!


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

This is a useless round and around topic.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Rogerx said:


> This is a useless round and around topic.


I agree. I like both operas about equally and can't see why you would compare those two and not others. (Parsifal vs. Otello for instance, which might be considered the pinnacles of their respective composer's art.) There are other operas by both composers that I enjoy more. However, Verdi and Wagner are so different, can one really compare them?

N.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

The Conte said:


> I agree. I like both operas about equally and can't see why you would compare those two and not others. (Parsifal vs. Otello for instance, which might be considered the pinnacles of their respective composer's art.) There are other operas by both composers that I enjoy more. However, Verdi and Wagner are so different, can one really compare them?
> 
> N.


To be fair, OP dates from 2012


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Rogerx said:


> To be fair, OP dates from 2012


Verdi and Wagner were no more comparable back then! 

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Odd comparison. No comparison. Probably the only time I'd listen to _Aida_ would be to hear a particular singer do one of the arias. If we could bring back Caruso and Gadski or Martinelli and Ponselle I'd even go to the opera house for it. Meanwhile:


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Since I’m not the Perfect Wagnerite, I choose Aida. 
I’ve never been able to sit through an entire T&I. Snoozefest. 
I like plenty of other Wagner, but not this.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

It depends on who's singing. LOL
Both are great. Would I choose Flagstad and Melchoir live over Callas as Aida in Mexico City with the Eb?? I''d really have to think about that. As great as Aida is, and it is one of the greatest operas, Tristan is more complex, profound and one can get lost into listening to parts of it over and over and over. You don't study Aida but one studies Tristan. I think if your wife put some time into studying up on Tristan it could blow her away, especially if the cast is good.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

I don't think this poll is necessarily _that_ weird. _Aïda _is one of Verdi's masterpieces, and _Tristan und Isolde _is one of Wagner's masterpieces. The operas are drastically different, but I think the essence of the question is basically, "Do you prefer Verdi or Wagner?" I'd go with Wagner myself.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

adriesba said:


> I don't think this poll is necessarily _that_ weird. _Aïda _is one of Verdi's masterpieces, and _Tristan und Isolde _is one of Wagner's masterpieces. The operas are drastically different, but I think the essence of the question is basically, "Do you prefer Verdi or Wagner?" I'd go with Wagner myself.


Yes, exactly, but why not ask that question in the first place?

N.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

The Conte said:


> Yes, exactly, but why not ask that question in the first place?
> 
> N.


Just to be different perhaps. Or just for fun.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

In a way, the comparison is interesting, given that both operas are tales of pairs of doomed lovers, with the woman in each work forcibly removed from her native land and in love with a man from her captors' country. But the resemblance pretty much ends there. _Tristan_ is single-mindedly focused on the psyches of the lovers, to the point where the physical setting hardly matters; I can imagine the opera produced abstractly as a filmed closeup of two spotlit heads singing to each other against the backdrop of a dark, stormy sea. The emotions are complex, and the lovers seem more interested in figuring out what love means than in getting on with it. _Aida,_ by contrast, can hardly have too much spectacle: by all means, let us have pachyderms, and never mind that the Egyptians didn't have trumpets. No one ever has to ask what love is, and being united in death means nothing more esoteric than having a last hug and a few good high notes sung in unison.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

^^^ Very true, though as I understand it the primary thematic element in _Aida_ is the conflict between patriotic loyalty, or love of homeland, and romantic love. On that score, it is an interesting, though maybe not philosophically interesting, work. _Tristan_ is the kind of opera I can listen to at home because it's about interior states far more than action. I find _Aida_ at home relatively boring, unless it's Martinelli and Ponselle. I think it would work very well in the theater, however.

I think the more apt comparison is between _Aida_ and _Norma_. _Tristan und Isolde_ is more comparable to _La fanciulla del west_ and _Turandot_. The former was certainly meant to address similar issues to _Tristan_ and _Parsifal_, though from a rather different perspective.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

vivalagentenuova said:


> ^^^ Very true, though as I understand it the primary thematic element in _Aida_ is the conflict between patriotic loyalty, or love of homeland, and romantic love. On that score, it is an interesting, though maybe not philosophically interesting, work. _Tristan_ is the kind of opera I can listen to at home because it's about interior states far more than action. I find _Aida_ at home relatively boring, unless it's Martinelli and Ponselle. I think it would work very well in the theater, however.
> 
> I think the more apt comparison is between _Aida_ and _Norma_. _Tristan und Isolde_ is more comparable to _La fanciulla del west_ and _Turandot_. The former was certainly meant to address similar issues to _Tristan_ and _Parsifal_, though from a rather different perspective.


Now that you mentioned _Norma_, I simply have to remark that I think this is one of the most psychological Italian operas. Already the fact that there's very little real action and a lot of pure discussion proves the mastery which the librettist has managed to achieve. First time I heard 1955 Callas' _Norma_ was a very memorable experience.

Interestingly, Wagner praised _Norma_ and Bellini very highly. I even think he said that _Tristan_ is his _Norma_. He really loved that opera! I think a comparison between Bellini's _Norma_ and Wagner's _Tristan_ would be very justified and appropriate one as well.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

annaw said:


> Now that you mentioned _Norma_, I simply have to remark that I think this is one of the most psychological Italian operas. Already the fact that there's very little real action and a lot of pure discussion proves the mastery which the librettist has managed to achieve. First time I heard 1955 Callas' _Norma_ was a very memorable experience.
> 
> Interestingly, Wagner praised _Norma_ and Bellini very highly. I even think he said that _Tristan_ is his _Norma_. He really loved that opera! I think a comparison between Bellini's _Norma_ and Wagner's _Tristan_ would be very justified and appropriate one as well.


Yes, I agree with you. I meant the comparison between _Norma_ and _Aida_ was apt in that they both deal with similar themes (love of one's homeland, people, community vs. romantic love with an outsider). I think _Norma_ is overall more interesting.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Yes, I agree with you. I meant the comparison between _Norma_ and _Aida_ was apt in that they both deal with similar themes (love of one's homeland, people, community vs. romantic love with an outsider). I think _Norma_ is overall more interesting.


Yes, I agree! It wasn't a counterargument or anything. Your post just brought the comparison to my mind again .


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

annaw said:


> Yes, I agree! It wasn't a counteragument or anything. Your post just brought the comparison to my mind again .


I just realized after reading your post that mine perhaps hadn't been as clear as I wanted.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

The only thing I like about Aida is Amneris. I pretty much never get the urge to watch/listen to the whoel thing anymore.

Tristan, on the other hand, is beautiful, but it really needs great singers.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

vivalagentenuova said:


> _Tristan und Isolde_ is more comparable to _La fanciulla del west_ and _Turandot_. The former was certainly meant to address similar issues to _Tristan_ and _Parsifal_, though from a rather different perspective.


Provocative and puzzling. Could you elaborate?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

vivalagentenuova said:


> ^^^ Very true, though as I understand it the primary thematic element in _Aida_ is the conflict between patriotic loyalty, or love of homeland, and romantic love. On that score, it is an interesting, though maybe not philosophically interesting, work. _Tristan_ is the kind of opera I can listen to at home because it's about interior states far more than action. I find _Aida_ at home relatively boring, unless it's Martinelli and Ponselle. I think it would work very well in the theater, however.
> 
> I think the more apt comparison is between _Aida_ and _Norma_. _Tristan und Isolde_ is more comparable to _La fanciulla del west_ and _Turandot_. The former was certainly meant to address similar issues to _Tristan_ and _Parsifal_, though from a rather different perspective.


A comparison between Norma and Aida is far more interesting. I think Norma's music is more classically 'perfect' than that for Aida, but Aida would possibly be the greater of the two due to its balance of music and drama (there's more music that functions, more or less, solely as music in Norma). However, Norma is definitely my favourite of the two.

I also agree about Tristan vs. Puccini's 'Wagnerian' operas for obvious reasons.

N.

P.S. Can one really compare two towering geniuses as Wagner or Verdi with anyone else but themselves. I'd much rather discuss Tristan vs. Parsifal or Traviata vs. Rigoletto. Those seem much fairer comparisons and would definitely be a comparison between operas rather than one between composers.

Edited to correct appalling lapse in spelling.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Can one really compare to towering genius' as Wagner or Verdi with anyone else but themselves? I'd much rather discuss Tristan vs. Parsifal or Traviata vs. Rigoletto. Those seem much fairer comparisons and would definitely be a comparison between operas rather than one between composers.


Hard to disagree with that. It can be interesting to contrast the very different art of these two greats, but I think it's harder in this case because _Tristan_ is such quintessential Wagner and _Aida[/aI] is not exactly, in my opinion, quintessential Verdi. I can't help feeling that the human element in Aida is a little flat and conventionalized, a bit swallowed up in atmospherics and spectacle. No doubt that was the nature of the task - a festival opera, so to speak - but it all feels a tad impersonal to me compared with works such as Otello, La Traviata, and Rigoletto, where the human condition is illuminated in a richer, more intimate and focused way.

In Tristan, the characters are INTENDED to be swallowed up by a passion bigger than themselves - bigger than anything in the universe, actually. It's a religious experience or a drug trip. But in Verdi at his best the poignant portrayal of character fills our whole awareness; nothing transcends it. It's an experience of humanity naked and pure. Aida doesn't do that for me._


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Provocative and puzzling. Could you elaborate?


Sure! I think Puccini is the most Wagnerian of the great opera composers after Wagner, at least in the psychologically subtle way he used his music to illuminate the text. He was clearly enamored of and awed by _Tristan_ and _Parsifal_, and he also knew the other Wagner scores very well, having arranged _Meistersinger_ for Ricordi. Still, thematically, I see him as something of an anti-Wagnerian. I can't help but feel that _Fanciulla_ and _Turandot_ are reminding us of these Wagner masterpieces in order to tell us something else.

In _Fanciulla_ we have lovers who disagree over the nature of love: Rance and Johnson early on both see it as overpowering and consuming. Johnson says, "There are women in our lives whom we would desire in our lives for that hour alone, and then die!" To which Minnie cleverly answers, "And how many times have you died?" (I just love Minnie.) Minnie had just told him that for love is infinite, and she doesn't understand how how someone could only love someone for one hour. I think she imagines something like a casual hookup, and Johnson is saying that there is some love that makes you want to love for an hour and then die. I think he's talking about an all consuming love, though it's nicely ambiguous. In any case, an eternal, redemptive love, which is what ends up winning out, certainly sounds Wagnerian to me. The twist is that Puccini's lovers don't merge into metaphysical unity in the night, they go off into the sun_rise_ to redeem themselves and live active lives of work. In that context, love is not something that cannot abide the world of day, the ultimate fulfillment of which is to transcend that world, but rather something that thrives in the day, and even transfigures the hostile world through it's action. Puccini even describes the music he wrote for _Fanciulla_ as creating a "dream" world in which the violent action could take place. In another reversal, however, it is ultimately the night/dream world that threatens love, not shelters it. I can't help but see it as a reaction to _Tristan_. There are musical connections as well that I think support this. The music for the poker scene, which also occurs when Minnie is hiding the just shot Johnson in the attic, is, I realized from reading Deborah Burton's book _Recondite Harmony_, a quotation of the opening motif of the _Tristan_ prelude! 







Even more strikingly, Minnie's main identifying theme is a variation on an important melody from a few measures later in the _Tristan_ prelude:







As Burton then points out, Puccini even borrows the dramatic structure of posing an unresolved musical "problem" in the prelude (the whole tone music), and only resolving it at the end of the opera (the augmented C major is transmuted into E major, E major being the key of the redemption music when it is first heard in the second part of the prelude, and at the end of the opera, as well as, interestingly, Jack Rance's aria). She then points out what I just illustrated from the libretto, that the resolution is essentially anti-Tristan.

I think _Fanciulla_ likely engages with _Parsifal_ on the theme of redemption. I don't know _Parsifal_ as well, though, so it's harder for me to draw explicit parallels. One of my main interests in studying _Parsifal_ more, aside from getting to know a clearly great opera, is to understand Puccini better. I'm probably the only person to say that!

I also think _Turandot_ engages with both the ideas of love-death and redemption in an important ways. Puccini famously and cryptically wrote "Poi Tristano" in the margins of his sketches for the end of _Turandot_. I think what he's getting at is that _Turandot_ is essentially another confrontation with the idea of the Liebesnacht. The opera takes place at night, and Turandot is associated with the moon (as a severed head!). Calaf's mission is to bring Turandot back into the world of day, not as a defeat of her (man dominating woman), but as a healing for both of them (as many point out, Calaf has his issues too). Puccini says it better than I ever could:


Puccini said:


> "These two beings, who stand...outside the world, are transformed into humans through love, and this love must take possession of everybody on the stage in an orchestral peroration"


The idea is, just like in _Fanciulla_, that love brings the characters into the world, and effects a transformation of that world. To me, "poi Tristano" actually means, "And then the anti-Tristan moment". One can see that Puccini was going for something far different from what is usually assumed by those who refuse to give him credit for his dramatic insight.

As for musical examples, Michele Girardi I think shows that the main motive of the concertato that ends Act I (heard starting at "Ah, per l'ultima volta") is a variation on a motive from "Westwärts schweift der Blick".


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Aida is a opera for the theatre. You need the greasepaint and the spectacle to complete it. Verdi knew exactly what he was doing in composing it. He produced an opera which would be a popular success. And of course it always has been not that the score is anything but exceptional even though the plot we might say is somewhat conventional. 
With Tristan of course th3 theatre might even be said to be a hindrance. For one thing there is little action and for another it is an incredibly long sit for all but devoted Wagnerians. In addition you have the spectacle usually of two middle-aged singers, quite robust, pretending to be two young lovers. For that I do not blame the singers but rather the composer in that he wrote music which only mature and large voices can sing. As such voices do not occur very often one is always going to be struggling to find singers who can actually sing the thing in the theatre. So for Tristan if I’m going to listen I would prefer to listen at home at my leisure in audio only. Not that the score of Tristan is anything less than remarkable. But even remarkable music wears thin after five hours


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Aida is a opera for the theatre. You need the greasepaint and the spectacle to complete it. Verdi knew exactly what he was doing in composing it. He produced an opera which would be a popular success. And of course it always has been not that the score is anything but exceptional even though the plot we might say is somewhat conventional.
> With Tristan of course th3 theatre might even be said to be a hindrance. For one thing there is little action and for another it is an incredibly long sit for all but devoted Wagnerians. In addition you have the spectacle usually of two middle-aged singers, quite robust, pretending to be two young lovers. For that I do not blame the singers but rather the composer in that he wrote music which only mature and large voices can sing. As such voices do not occur very often one is always going to be struggling to find singers who can actually sing the thing in the theatre. So for Tristan if I'm going to listen I would prefer to listen at home at my leisure in audio only. Not that the score of Tristan is anything less than remarkable. But even remarkable music wears thin after five hours


And you don't in Aida?

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> And you don't in Aida?
> 
> N.


No you can usually find singers who are at least passible. As long as the lighting isn't too strong! :lol:


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Aida all day and night. Tristan still doesn’t really speak to me and heaven knows I’ve put in the work to try. Although I do of course like the overture and the liebestod is incredible. If it were Aida versus the Ring, or Parsifal, or even Lohengrin, that choice would be harder to make.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Sonata said:


> Aida all day and night. Tristan still doesn't really speak to me and heaven knows I've put in the work to try. Although I do of course like the overture and the liebestod is incredible. If it were Aida versus the Ring, or Parsifal, or even Lohengrin, that choice would be harder to make.


I think Tristan is particular as an opera (as is Parsifal) and it only speaks to me up to a certain point. I recognise how great it is, but I find the Ring and Parsifal have themes that are more engaging for me.

N.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

AmericanGesamtkunstwerk said:


> Couchie, I have heard a similar bit with Puccini. Apparently, he said that all he wanted to accomplish in his life was a love duet that could face up to those in Tristan. Someone told me this, but since then I haven't been able to find a source. Would (you or) anyone know anything?


Responding to this over 8 years later, but my understanding is that's why he couldn't finish Turandot. Couldn't write a love duet that didn't pale in comparison to Tristan.


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## ThaNotoriousNIC (Jun 29, 2020)

I voted for Tristan und Isolde in the poll. After being exposed to Tristan for the first time a few months ago, I have become very fascinated by its music. While there is plenty to talk about regarding the music in Wagner's other operas, something about the music in Tristan stands out to me. I find Aida to be a much easier listen and an opera that I listen to my favorite parts of more frequently, but Tristan really makes me think. Don't get me wrong, I love Aida as it is my second favorite Verdi opera behind Don Carlo. I saw Aida live at the Met about two years ago and the spectacle of watching it on stage is definitely a big plus (horses and all). As my desires of what I want out of opera change over time, I might vote for Aida over Tristan in a few years. In the end, I greatly enjoy both of them.


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