# What is more important?



## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

-
-

One question that I can not easily reply

and I do not know what a honest objective answer would be

_Is the image of the composer more important

than the classical composition itself?_


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Is the image of a composer important at all? I don't know if it would affect my appreciation of Beethoven's music if there were no images painted of him.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

In general, not for me, no! 
The music is much more important than the image - and I listen to a fair bit of early music where there isn't much known about the composer's personality or character. In a small way, I suppose I find some aspects of some composers attractive (for example the eccentricity of Granville Bantock amuses me) and the music of Wagner (or Liszt or Gesualdo or ....insert your demon here) is far more important to me than iconography is.
That said, I found the Memoirs of Berlioz and David Cairn's monumental biography of Berlioz to be very influential in my early days of listening to his music, but it is the music that matters, not his image as such (says he with an avatar of the composer - gulp!)


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Can You really have either with out the other? I quite think that they feed on each other.

/ptr


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

no, gentlemen, by no means iconography or pictures is meant here

put {image} in brackets

And as Webster dictionary mentions, have only this in mind

Image

1. the idea that people have about someone or something

2. popular conception (as of a person, institution, or nation) projected especially through the mass media 

3. a mental picture : the thought of how something looks or might look


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

What is meant by my question is that,

many times there is a person (here a composer) that his name is coming through the centuries

and considered as "great", due to various reasons, not necessarily his talent and creations,

while there is other, who was extremely talented, but due to other various reasons and circumstances

he has not the attention that should have.

The actual question was, *if the "name" is more important than the composition

and leads the audiences often to wrong destinations...*

Well, I finally said it


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

When they're long dead, the composer's image doesn't matter anymore. When they're alive, it might have a small bearing on what I get into, but once I like the music, then it no longer matters.

The image can be an abstract fabrication of the media--an agglomeration of accolades, reviews, reception of works, usage in films, etc.--that has absolutely nothing at all to say about the composer himself, but the picture I receive might be one that is not 'cool', to refer to another current thread. This might influence me to initially reject trying out the music.

As an example, I have formed an uncool, or too cool, but not a genuinely cool, but media-created cool, image of Philip Glass. I balk at the thought of listening to his music. I have heard some pieces and I didn't find his style of 'classical' to be the kind of thing I would consider wanting to listen to. As a result, I am somewhat opposed to trying out newer works because of my preconceptions. It is difficult to separate the preconceptions of the media image of the populist, minimalist composer of great mass celebrity and the pieces I have heard that didn't fit the schema of what I would want to hear or what I would want classical music to be. How much is my opposition due to image; how much to the already heard music?

Ok, clara s, perhaps I am influenced by image even of the long dead composers. I am not talking about political affiliations or the scandalous acts they might have committed, but simply of their fame and stature. I have a receptivity to the big names and there are so very many of them, that I am so completely overwhelmed by the sheer volume of available music, that I don't give works by composers of less famous pedigree much air time. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that I am being led "to wrong destinations," but perhaps there could have been more stops on the itinerary.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2014)

clara s said:


> _Is the image of the composer more important
> 
> than the classical composition itself?_


Certainly not.

I'm not sure it's _important _at all, however interesting it may be to consider how the image (reputation) of a composer has ebbed and flowed over the years.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

clara s said:


> The actual question was, *if the "name" is more important than the composition
> 
> and leads the audiences often to wrong destinations...*
> 
> Well, I finally said it


Depends on who the audience is. I suspect there are some (many?) who respond to the name of the artist - any artist, not just the composer.

I don't think that's common here on TC, where you have more experienced listeners.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The only composer whose image ever bothered me is Wagner due to his anti-semitic rants. I have no problem with any other composer's image and I simply reach for a CD, "image-free" and enjoy the music.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Still the answer is 'no'.

I generally very much like Berlioz, for example, but he wrote some music that I wish to listen to very little. Similarly, the fact that <<insert name of composer>> wrote something does not influence me to like (or dislike it).

I agree with Green Mamba - I would anticipate posters on TC to listen to the music (although some of them seem to like the look of a performer's legs or cleavage a bit too much for my taste :devil


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

hpowders said:


> The only composer whose image ever bothered me is Wagner due to his anti-semitic rants. I have no problem with any other composer's image and I simply reach for a CD, "image-free" and enjoy the music.


Does, say, Shostakovich or Prokofiev bother you with their pro-Stalin propaganda?


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

No.............


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Why? Not enough people killed?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Does, say, Shostakovich or Prokofiev bother you with their pro-Stalin propaganda?


Panegyrics to the Big Boss? Hardly surprising given the history of classical music. Even Beethoven indulged himself with works like "Cantata on the accession of Emperor Leopold II". And not just in music! Read Bach's cover letter to the Margrave of Brandenburg, or his notations to Frederick the Great in his "Musical Offering".

Both Prokofiev and Shostakovich were Soviet court composers. They took the king's shilling and played the king's tune. Such things were expected of them.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Panegyrics to the Big Boss? Hardly surprising given the history of classical music. Even Beethoven indulged himself with works like "Cantata on the accession of Emperor Leopold II". And not just in music! Read Bach's cover letter to the Margrave of Brandenburg, or his notations to Frederick the Great in his "Musical Offering".
> 
> Both Prokofiev and Shostakovich were Soviet court composers. They took the king's shilling and played the king's tune. Such things were expected of them.


I'm neither shocked nor amazed.

I just find it infinitely fascinating that people who take exception to Wagner because of his anti-Semitism remain conspicously silent on apologists for the second-largest mass murder in history.

If one can't oblige listening to Wagner's music because of his repulsive social views, then _a fortiori_, it would seem that one wouldn't be able to stomach much apologia for mass murder either.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I just find it infinitely fascinating that people who take exception to Wagner because of his anti-Semitism remain conspicously silent on apologists for the second-largest mass murder in history.


Right on there! If we were to reject all the anti-Semitic composers of the 19th century, we'd be left with slim pickings.

Who criticizes the music of Martin Luther, who was far more anti-Semitic than Wagner and even proposed things not far from the "ultimate solution"?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Right on there! If we were to reject all the anti-Semitic composers of the 19th century, we'd be left with slim pickings.
> 
> Who criticizes the music of Martin Luther, who was far more anti-Semitic than Wagner and even proposed things not far from the "ultimate solution"?


Clearly the view of a fanatical pedant; the views of the type of guy who does back flips over judging a work of art by its intrinsic merits. How_ hateful_. How _intolerant_. How _callous_.

In short, here's a man after my own heart.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2014)

clara s said:


> no, gentlemen, by no means iconography or pictures is meant here
> 
> put {image} in brackets
> 
> ...


In light of some of the comments now emerging, I have to return to this clara-fication of the OP.

Without a definition of what is meant by 'important', it's a little ambiguous.

Important for enjoyment?
Important for understanding?
Important for evaluating?
Important for playing?


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## kikko (Jun 19, 2014)

Hmm.........

NO.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I think a certain amount of legend enhances the enjoyment. Meeting Beethoven in real life would surely be a massive disappointment and might adversely affect my response to the music even though the latter had not changed.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Weston said:


> I think a certain amount of legend enhances the enjoyment. Meeting Beethoven in real life would surely be a massive disappointment and might adversely affect my response to the music even though the latter had not changed.


Everyone is a disappointment in "real" life. We create art in order to redeem ourselves.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes. Every composer we tend to worship, would most likely disappoint us in real life if we encountered any of them to find out that they are just human beings after all, not gods.

To me, in my imagination Beethoven has to stand at least 6'4" tall. What was he in real life, 5'5"?

Hence, I wouldn't want to meet any of my heros in the flesh. I'll stay with my idealized images.
Nobody bursts my bubbles!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Everyone is a disappointment in "real" life. We create art in order to redeem ourselves.


Yeah, but I changed all that.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

clara s said:


> What is meant by my question is that,
> 
> many times there is a person (here a composer) that his name is coming through the centuries
> 
> and considered as "great", due to various reasons, not necessarily his talent and creations,


I disagree with this statement entirely.


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## muzik (May 16, 2013)

What matters is music.

Understanding the image of a composer might (but it's not always true) help understand his music.

Our image is a reflection of what we are. However because of the time factor it is very hard to grasp who the composers of the past really were.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

GGluek said:


> I disagree with this statement entirely.


Hard to be considered "great" through the centuries without an impressive résumé to back it up.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Yeah, but I changed all that.


I said "real" life, not "reel" life.

CUT!


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## csacks (Dec 5, 2013)

I do believe that in both music and art, the image of the composer influences our perception of an composition. Lets we talk about Beethoven´s triple concerto. A nice but not a high lit in his list of compositions. If it would be created by someone less famous, probably we would not be listening to him as often as we do. It is a simple composition, not much effort put on it, but it is Beethoven, and just by that, we use to be more condescending.
The same thing about painters. Is all Picasso´s creation so good?. Probably not, but it is Picasso, and sometimes, it is enough.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Woodduck: I said "real" life, not "reel" life. CUT!


Well, sure: Something _this _fabulous can't be 'reel.' _;D_


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> When they're long dead, the composer's image doesn't matter anymore. When they're alive, it might have a small bearing on what I get into, but once I like the music, then it no longer matters.
> 
> The image can be an abstract fabrication of the media--an agglomeration of accolades, reviews, reception of works, usage in films, etc.--that has absolutely nothing at all to say about the composer himself, but the picture I receive might be one that is not 'cool', to refer to another current thread. This might influence me to initially reject trying out the music.
> 
> ...


perfectly put brotagonist

we are surely influenced by abstract fabrication of media

especially for their political involvements, stormy love affairs,
unstable psychological conditions, temperamental lives,
things that for today are considered usual, 
but for their times scandalous.

Also again we are influenced by the extreme positive environment
created for other composers.

more stops on the itinerary... this is a good statement


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> Depends on who the audience is. I suspect there are some (many?) who respond to the name of the artist - any artist, not just the composer.
> 
> I don't think that's common here on TC, where you have more experienced listeners.


we have to go back, and see how we started with classical music,
how we accepted certain composers.

When we reach a certain level as a listener, then it's too late

I mean some of us start in classical music with a "theorem" and others with an "axiom".


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

hpowders said:


> The only composer whose image ever bothered me is Wagner due to his anti-semitic rants. I have no problem with any other composer's image and I simply reach for a CD, "image-free" and enjoy the music.


OK hpowders

Wagner's image bothered you, but in the end of the day,
what is more important for you, his image or the Rings?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

clara s said:


> OK hpowders
> 
> Wagner's image bothered you, but in the end of the day,
> what is more important for you, his image or the Rings?


Fair enough question. I have several performances of the complete Ring and have seen several performances of the Ring cycle at the Met when I was living in NYC...if you can call that living...but I digress.

So to answer your question, the music will always trump the person's image, no matter how despicable.

I'm a "music-person" much more than a "people-person".......


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

hpowders said:


> To me, in my imagination Beethoven has to stand at least 6'4" tall. What was he in real life, 5'5"?


More like 5'3", I think; Mahler and Schoenberg were both around 5'2", and Schubert was even shorter than that! Rachmaninoff was over 6 feet tall, though.

You can see how short Mahler looks in front of the massive forces of the Eighth Symphony (rehearsal):


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> In light of some of the comments now emerging, I have to return to this clara-fication of the OP.
> 
> Without a definition of what is meant by 'important', it's a little ambiguous.
> 
> ...


important for the individual's and the world's cultural "upgrading" I would dare to say


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> More like 5'3", I think; Mahler and Schoenberg were both around 5'2", and Schubert was even shorter than that! Rachmaninoff was over 6 feet tall, though.
> 
> You can see how short Mahler looks in front of the massive forces of the Eighth Symphony (rehearsal):


OH NO!! It gets worse! Five freakin' THREE?????? There's no way ANYBODY 5'3" could have written music like that!!!!

Perhaps there is a negative correlation between height and musical genius with Rachmaninoff on top and Beethoven and Mahler on the bottom?

Meanwhile, wouldn't we have all wanted to be at that rehearsal?


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

GGluek said:


> I disagree with this statement entirely.


I would want very much to agree with you

that everything in "nature" is beautifully and meritocratically created


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## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

I admire artists who make an effort to embody their art.
I applaud when the image, the person, and the art are in alignment.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

marschallin blair said:


> does, say, shostakovich or prokofiev bother you with their pro-stalin propaganda?


Read my lips:

N o p e ! ! !


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## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

clara s said:


> -
> -
> 
> One question that I can not easily reply
> ...


No. Wagner is as good an illustration of this as any: While the absence of Richard Wagner the person, his "Judaism in Music" ramblings and his political and social views would not have been a great loss to humanity, the absence of Richard Wagner the composer would.

Wagner was a flawed person in several ways, but he was also one of the greatest visionaries in the history of opera. His music has left an indelible impression on countless listeners and continues to do so, enriching people's lives and minds in a way and to a degree only the greatest artists can achieve.

His music also served as a major inspiration for both contemporary composers and many of those composers who came after him. Musical history post 1883 would not have been the same without Wagner.

Sometimes good people do bad things. Sometimes bad people do good things, too. If we judge art merely based on the people who created it, we will lose out on some the greatest art ever created.

In my native Norway, the Nobel prize winning author Knut Hamsun remains highly controversial, more than 60 years after his death. He actively sympathized with Nazi Germany during the 1940-45 occupation of Norway. He was a literary genius, too. Should we dismiss Hamsun the author because Hamsun the man held unacceptable political views? It would be our loss.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Fair enough question. I have several performances of the complete Ring and have seen several performances of the Ring cycle at the Met when I was living in NYC...if you can call that living...but I digress.
> 
> So to answer your question, the music will always trump the person's image, no matter how despicable.
> 
> I'm a "music-person" much more than a "people-person".......


I hope I don't have to keep re-posting this and re-posting this and re-posting this....


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Does, say, Shostakovich or Prokofiev bother you with their pro-Stalin propaganda?


I, for one, can say "absolutely not".

There is plenty within Shostakovich's work that is the opposite of soviet propaganda - for example, the Songs from Jewish Poetry is decidedly 'un-soviet' and I didn't get any sense of him being a soviet puppet in the three hours of joy I had listening to the 24 Preludes and Fugues this afternoon


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Everyone is a disappointment in "real" life. We create art in order to redeem ourselves.


Speak for yourself, pal - how do you know that I am a disappointment in 'real' life? Actually .... you are correct .... I even disappoint myself


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> I, for one, can say "absolutely not".
> 
> There is plenty within Shostakovich's work that is the opposite of soviet propaganda - for example, the Songs from Jewish Poetry is decidedly 'un-soviet' and I didn't get any sense of him being a soviet puppet in the three hours of joy I had listening to the 24 Preludes and Fugues this afternoon


Completely agree.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Speak for yourself, pal - how do you know that I am a disappointment in 'real' life? Actually .... you are correct .... I even disappoint myself


Nah! Come on. You are a diamond in the rough. More people in this world should be like you.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

csacks said:


> I do believe that in both music and art, the image of the composer influences our perception of an composition. Lets we talk about *Beethoven´s triple concerto*. A nice but not a high lit in his list of compositions. If it would be created by someone less famous, probably we would not be listening to him as often as we do. It is a simple composition, not much effort put on it, but it is Beethoven, and just by that, we use to be more condescending.


I don't see the Triple being mentioned very often on the 'Current Listening' thread - are you sure that we listen to it just because it is Beethoven? As you say, nice but not a highlight IMHO


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> More like 5'3", I think; Mahler and Schoenberg were both around 5'2", and Schubert was even shorter than that! Rachmaninoff was over 6 feet tall, though.
> 
> You can see how short Mahler looks in front of the massive forces of the Eighth Symphony (rehearsal):


I couldn't care a hoot how tall he was - his music is monumental :tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I may be in the minority here and for that I couldn't care less, but I have always loved the Triple Concerto and find it to be one of Beethoven's most accessible and refreshing works. My favorite performance is from Marlboro with Jaime Laredo, Leslie Parnas and the great Rudolph Serkin.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Nah! Come on. You are a diamond in the rough. More people in this world should be like you.


Hmmm! Someone being nice to me .... do I owe them money or is there an election coming up?


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> I may be in the minority here and for that I couldn't care less, but I have always loved the Triple Concerto and find it to be one of Beethoven's most accessible and refreshing works. My favorite performance is from Marlboro with Jaime Laredo, Leslie Parnas and the great Rudolph Serkin.


Good for you.

I bet it is the music that drives you and not the LvB on the label (hahaha - we return to the 'performance not the label' point again :lol


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Hmmm! Someone being nice to me .... do I owe them money or is there an election coming up?


Nope! Simply unselfish musical brotherhood! :tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Good for you.
> 
> I bet it is the music that drives you and not the LvB on the label (hahaha - we return to the 'performance not the label' point again :lol


I bet nobody has more fun playing any concerto than a violinist, cellist and pianist in Beethoven's Triple. I adore the coda to the first movement-powerful, irresistible Beethoven! Nobody else could have written this!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hpowders said:


> I bet nobody has more fun playing any concerto than a violinist, cellist and pianist in Beethoven's Triple. I adore the coda to the first movement-powerful, irresistible Beethoven! Nobody else could have written this!


I am with you all the way, h!

The Triple Concerto is one of those works Beethoven wrote seemingly just for the joy of making music: no psychodrama, no metaphysical quests, no funerals for heroes - just beautiful music, like the "Pastoral" Symphony and the "Archduke" Trio. Always a favorite of mine, stimulating and relaxing at once. I will not tolerate people knocking it. I simply will not! You got that, people?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I am with you all the way, h!
> 
> The Triple Concerto is one of those works Beethoven wrote seemingly just for the joy of making music: no psychodrama, no metaphysical quests, no funerals for heroes - just beautiful music, like the "Pastoral" Symphony and the "Archduke" Trio. Always a favorite of mine, stimulating and relaxing at once. I will not tolerate people knocking it. I simply will not! You got that, people?


I place the Triple Concerto very high. The music is infectious and I'm sure every piano trio wants to perform it.

I will gladly be your backup guy to help you enforce the not knocking the Triple Concerto thing. About time we had a classical music police force.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> More like 5'3", I think; Mahler and Schoenberg were both around 5'2", and Schubert was even shorter than that!


Based on our measurements today? In Beethoven and Schubert's day, the length of a foot varied wildly across Europe. This has contributed to the myth of Napoleon's shortness. This, and the fact that the average person was shorter back then.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

When I read the original post (can't say OP cause I think of organophosphates), I immediately thought of the previous threads I've seen about Wagner and his antisemitism... In the end, I think that (overall) if the composer didn't commit some heinous crime, I mainly care about the music. While I'll look for works by a certain composer, it's only because I like the style of the composer. I mean, I'm quite obviously not about to meet them, so I don't often care to base my music listening on the person who wrote the music, but on the music itself.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

GreenMamba said:


> Based on our measurements today? In Beethoven and Schubert's day, the length of a foot varied wildly across Europe. This has contributed to the myth of Napoleon's shortness. This, and the fact that the average person was shorter back then.


All true, of course, and I admit that I'm going on hearsay.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

GreenMamba said:


> Based on our measurements today? In Beethoven and Schubert's day, the length of a foot varied wildly across Europe. This has contributed to the myth of Napoleon's shortness. This, and the fact that the average person was shorter back then.


In passing, the length of a meter was fixed with great accuracy in 1793, at one ten-millionth of the distance from the equator to the North Pole. Due to errors in estimating the non-spherical shape of the earth, it turned out to be short by a fifth of a millimeter. But still, not bad! If Napoleon and Beethoven had meter sticks, we'd know pretty precisely how tall they were. Unless they cheated and stood on tip-toe of course. BTW...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

clara s said:


> -
> One question that I can not easily reply
> 
> and I do not know what a honest objective answer would be
> ...


I'm astounded, truly, that this is even a question, let alone that anyone would think the composer's likeness is _at all important,_ period.

They're not flaming film stars, are they? They're _writers._

No, No, No, ten thousand times no, _their image is not at all important._


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

PetrB said:


> I'm astounded, truly, that this is even a question, let alone that anyone would think the composer's likeness is _at all important,_ period.
> 
> They're not flaming film stars, are they? They're _writers._
> 
> No, No, No, ten thousand times no, _their image is not at all important._


PetrB

please, clarify what you mean by "the composer's likeness",
because appearance is not the subject here and has nothing
to do with my question.

Read my explanation in my posts 5 and 6 of this thread
and the comments of other people.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

To answer the OP... No. Few composers are in the 'Rock Star' mould, imho. Liszt perhaps; most definitely Paganini, but on the whole Classical music composers are intelligent enough to realize that a carefully cultivated public persona is fleeting: it's their works that will preseve their name though the ages.


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

No.

The composer's image is formed in part by the composers compositions. 

Since the primary purpose of a composer is to compose, I would say the composition is more important.


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