# Effortless Music



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Who else, any genre, creates music as effortless as Mozart's sounds and was? I'm not sure one exists!


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Händel, Vivaldi, Bach, Telemann, Haydn, Schubert etc.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Who else, any genre, creates music as effortless as Mozart's sounds and was? I'm not sure one exists!


That is why Mozart is such a challenge to play well...it is not easy, not effortless....it is very difficult, but it must SOUND effortless and easy...Such tour de forces as Sym #5/IV Haffner, #41/IV Jupiter have to sound effortless, nothing to it, so easy....HA!! if only.....:devil:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Heck148 said:


> That is why Mozart is such a challenge to play well...it is not easy, not effortless....it is very difficult, but it must SOUND effortless and easy...Such tour de forces as Sym #5/IV Haffner, #41/IV Jupiter have to sound effortless, nothing to it, so easy....HA!! if only.....:devil:


"The sonatas of Mozart are unique; they are too easy for children, and too difficult for artists." ― Artur Schnabel


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> That is why Mozart is such a challenge to play well...it is not easy, not effortless....it is very difficult, but it must SOUND effortless and easy...Such tour de forces as Sym #5/IV Haffner, #41/IV Jupiter have to sound effortless, nothing to it, so easy....HA!! if only.....:devil:


Difficult to perform properly, but the composition itself is effortless music. Or something to that effect!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Who else, any genre, creates music as effortless as Mozart's sounds and was? I'm not sure one exists!


Sounds and was are two different things.


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## ojoncas (Jan 3, 2019)

Listen to movie scores/OST?
I find it more about harmony and textures in general, not so technical and complex as classical can be. Hans Zimmer, Howard Shore are ones I love.
Otherwise less known like Fernando Velazquez - his ‘Impossible Main Theme’.
Most of those will have its drama or heroism, which I don’t know if you’ll be pleased by.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Sounds and was are two different things.


Which is why I made it a point to state both, good sir!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Effortless? Anyone who has ever written a serious work, or even an arrangement will tell you that it takes a great deal of effort. Some composers may make it seem simple, like Mozart, Haydn, Mendelssohn...but writing music is a phenomenally difficult and demanding activity. It's genius that makes it sound like there was no tortured process involved. To me, Mozart doesn't sound effortless. Even the seemingly trite and cheesy arrangements played by people like Mantovani require huge intellectual brain power.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Effortless? Anyone who has ever written a serious work, or even an arrangement will tell you that it takes a great deal of effort. Some composers may make it seem simple, like Mozart, Haydn, Mendelssohn...but writing music is a phenomenally difficult and demanding activity. It's genius that makes it sound like there was no tortured process involved. To me, Mozart doesn't sound effortless. Even the seemingly trite and cheesy arrangements played by people like Mantovani require huge intellectual brain power.


It came to Mozart quite naturally, he could go from brain to paper in seconds, and be perfect the first time. Perhaps I'm too swayed by "Amadeus" and the portrayal of Mozart in that film. I do love my romanticism of Mozart!


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Who else, any genre, creates music as effortless as Mozart's sounds and was? I'm not sure one exists!


I am so glad he's no longer;
https://www.talkclassical.com/58464-mozart-my-enemy.html?highlight=


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It came to Mozart quite naturally, he could go from brain to paper in seconds, and be perfect the first time. Perhaps I'm too swayed by "Amadeus" and the portrayal of Mozart in that film. I do love my romanticism of Mozart!


Listen to mbhaub, Cap'n. He knoweth whereof he speaketh. (In fact, he spells out the point that I was making more aphoristically.)

Mozart said that he did not compose effortlessly. Obviously he composed quickly. There is plenty of music - most of the music we recognize as "great," in fact - that sounds "effortless," meaning that it doesn't betray the process that went into its creation. Generally, we have no idea how much effort it took anyone to create anything unless there is specific information relating to the circumstances of its creation, or unless the composer tells us. We know that Beethoven struggled more with his material than did Mozart, but I defy you to show in a Beethoven quartet or symphony any evidence of this.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Rogerx said:


> I am so glad he's no longer;
> https://www.talkclassical.com/58464-mozart-my-enemy.html?highlight=


The more I listen to Mozart, the more I discover he was just simply, a Genius!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I'll bet that if Mozart hadn't put as much effort into his music as he did, meaning that if he had slept longer hours or partied more often or simply stared into space while twiddling his thumbs or spent hours sitting on his porch to watch the grass grow, that we wouldn't even have this particular thread today.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

SONNET CLV said:


> I'll bet that if Mozart hadn't put as much effort into his music as he did, meaning that if he had slept longer hours or partied more often or simply stared into space while twiddling his thumbs or spent hours sitting on his porch to watch the grass grow, that we wouldn't even have this particular thread today.


Right...I agree. It takes a lot of effort to be a natural, effortless human being at the craft of choice.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I do feel there is something highly divine about Mozart's music though, and unlike Bach, it doesn't sound like he is trying to.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I do feel there is something highly divine about Mozart's music though, and unlike Bach, it doesn't sound like he is trying to.


Trying to what? Write good music?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Trying to what? Write good music?


Be divine..that is what I meant. I know all the Bach enthusiasts will get on me for that assertion.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Whenever one is in his center of being, and is creatively expressing, it's going to be effortless. Mozart was a very 'realized' being, as any great artist is. Or tennis player, for that matter. Or anyone who has discovered their being, and does things which flow out of that space.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It came to Mozart quite naturally, he could go from brain to paper in seconds, and be perfect the first time. Perhaps I'm too swayed by "Amadeus" and the portrayal of Mozart in that film. I do love my romanticism of Mozart!


This is mythology. Mozart is known to have composed at a keyboard, during one move writing to his father to say how anxious he was to get an instrument in soon so he could get back to composing. He sketched his works like most other composers.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2019)

Schubert, though in a more emotional way.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Do you mean effortless to compose, or effortless to listen to? 
If you mean the latter, I nominate Ravel, his music is a thorough delight to listen to. It's also highly complex if you listen close and analyze it, but its surface appeal is wonderful. 
For the former I can't really add anything new to this thread. Mozart seemed to have composition come to him pretty naturally, and so did Schubert and Haydn with their huge outputs. Ravel, interestingly, is said to have struggled with inspiration and composition, and at the end of his life he considered himself a failure since he was not as prolific as other composers.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> This is mythology. Mozart is known to have composed at a keyboard, during one move writing to his father to say how anxious he was to get an instrument in soon so he could get back to composing. He sketched his works like most other composers.


That's true Im sure. Though there is some evidence he also composed at least one major work without the assistance of a KB. The haffner sy - which I understand was composed on his travels after Leopold sent his son an urgent request for a piece. He may have composed it in a hurry in less than ideal circumstances and this may be believed in light of his letter to his father expressing astonishment when his dad returned the score to him - Wolfgang proclaiming that he could not recall a single note of it. Its quite exciting to think that such a well worked out structurally advanced composition could have been planned and composed without the assistance of a KB and indeed extensive planning on paper - but it is possible. If anyone knows anything more to this story which undermines my understanding I would be glad to be corrected.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mozart did cross out and fixed passages in some works, especially in the "Haydn" quartets, "fruit of long and laborious efforts" (in his own words)- ambitious works he wrote to impress Haydn. 









_"It occurs to me that I read a biography of Mozart rather early on, which inspired me to write my compositions without the help of an instrument."

"Shoenberg composed very rapidly. For a song or a short piano piece, he usually needed only one day. He did not compose at the piano, but at the desk."

"Shoenberg knew how to work out musical text in its entirety in his head, before - as if taking dictation - writing it down. This is a method with with we are familiar with Mozart."_


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

stomanek said:


> That's true Im sure. Though there is some evidence he also composed at least one major work without the assistance of a KB. The haffner sy - which I understand was composed on his travels after Leopold sent his son an urgent request for a piece. He may have composed it in a hurry in less than ideal circumstances and this may be believed in light of his letter to his father expressing astonishment when his dad returned the score to him - Wolfgang proclaiming that he could not recall a single note of it. Its quite exciting to think that such a well worked out structurally advanced composition could have been planned and composed without the assistance of a KB and indeed extensive planning on paper - but it is possible. If anyone knows anything more to this story which undermines my understanding I would be glad to be corrected.


What is the evidence he didn't have a keyboard available on his travels? I mean, I spent ten days over Christmas in another city but just used my mom's piano.  I imagine Mozart had contacts with instruments when he traveled at the time of the Haffner, don't you think? Or is there some direct evidence or testimony?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> What is the evidence he didn't have a keyboard available on his travels? I mean, I spent ten days over Christmas in another city but just used my mom's piano.  I imagine Mozart had contacts with instruments when he traveled at the time of the Haffner, don't you think? Or is there some direct evidence or testimony?


Sorry - I should have checked my facts rather than rely on my skewed memory. He did not compose it on his travels but was busy with other stuff in Vienna. He did send it piecemeal to his father in the form of mvts for a serenade for the Haffners and later re-worked into the symphony we know today.

I picked this up from Wikipedia and have no reason to doubt the conclusion from it

*Mozart evidently needed a keyboard to work out his musical thoughts. This can be deduced from his letters and other biographical material.[5] For instance, on 1 August 1781, Mozart wrote to his father Leopold concerning his living arrangements in Vienna, where he had recently moved:

"My room that I'm moving to is being prepared-I'm just off now to hire a keyboard, because I can't live there until that's been delivered, especially as I've got to write just now, and there isn't a minute to be lost."[6]
Konrad cites a similar letter written from Paris that indicates that Mozart didn't compose where he was staying, but visited another home to borrow the keyboard instrument there. Similar evidence is found in early biographies based on Constanze Mozart's memories.*

He may have composed without the use of a KB when deprived of one - but it seems his preference was to use a KB.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Interesting! Beethoven as well composed "at the keyboard" to a great extent and advised his pupils to always have a "practice keyboard" available. Haydn I don't know about, but he was certainly no keyboard virtuoso. Bach could compose anywhere, even in a coach, and once derided those needing a keyboard as "finger composers."


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

It was symphony #36 "Linz" that was composed on the road from Salzburg to Linz, on the way back to Vienna. Mozart composed it within a 5-6 day period before arriving there. He mentions in his letter to his dad the breakneck speed he had to compose it and while traveling.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

trazom said:


> It was symphony #36 "Linz" that was composed on the road from Salzburg to Linz, on the way back to Vienna. Mozart composed it within a 5-6 day period before arriving there. He mentions in his letter to his dad the breakneck speed he had to compose it and while traveling.


It was also thought that Mozart composed his 37th Symphony on this trip, an idea which later led to much amusement (and, on the part of some, embarrassment).


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

trazom said:


> It was symphony #36 "Linz" that was composed on the road from Salzburg to Linz, on the way back to Vienna. Mozart composed it within a 5-6 day period before arriving there. He mentions in his letter to his dad the breakneck speed he had to compose it and while traveling.


Ah thanks - I knew there was some basis to my belief.


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