# Peter Maxwell Davies and Hans Werner Henze



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

This one is for those of us who enjoy some contemporary and avant garde music. If that is not your bag then it may be unlikely that you will have much to contribute.

I was wondering what you think of the above named. Both were big names in the 60s and both died fairly recently. I get the impression that since the 60s they did not go on to enjoy the success and fame that they seemed destined for. To be sure both produced many major works that were well received but I am not sure these have placed them in the very centre of our picture of the music of the last 50 years. Some other big names from the 60s seem to have gone on to build stronger reputations. I am not sure why this is. I particularly like Max's music. I know less of Henze and used to find him a little too eclectic in the 60s. 

Anyway, what is your take on these two? And do you think they failed to live up to their earlier promise? And how do you think their reputation will settle?


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Only know maxwell Davies from his guitar music, but Henze was (and remains) a huge name. You can’t call anyone a middling success who wrote something like a dozen operas, several of which have become established regular repertoire

Henze flirted with the avant-garde but much of his work also has strong tonal associations. He is one of those composers like Dutilleux that is too traditionalist for the ultra-modernists but too modern for the atonophobes


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I like the work of both. Quite a bit of PMD's output revolves around his adopted home of the Orkneys but his music never descends to Celtic diddly-diddly hokum or wishy-washy New Age-ness. Maybe HWH's reputation travels further because the topics he has engaged with are more politically cosmopolitan, whereas PMD's social commentary is more localised and focuses on environmental concerns closer to home rather than world-wide issues. This is only one aspect to their output, though - I will hopefully come back before too long and discuss their work in more detail.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Only know maxwell Davies from his guitar music, but Henze was (and remains) a huge name. You can't call anyone a middling success who wrote something like a dozen operas, several of which have become established regular repertoire
> 
> Henze flirted with the avant-garde but much of his work also has strong tonal associations. He is one of those composers like Dutilleux that is too traditionalist for the ultra-modernists but too modern for the atonophobes


Interesting and encouraging. I must say, though, that news of the centrality you mention may not have traveled to Britain in the same way that Dutilleux's has. What would you say his key works are?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I haven't listened to Davies. I have a lot of Henze's music, although I don't consider him avant garde. My Third Ear guide didn't think Henze was worth discussing. The opinion of the music intelligentsia was that he was an old fashioned composer. Maybe he was old fashioned compared to the atonal composers of the 50s & 60s? He sounds modern to my ears, and I enjoy most of his symphonies, and his second violin concerto.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> This one is for those of us who enjoy some contemporary and avant garde music. If that is not your bag then it may be unlikely that you will have much to contribute.
> 
> I was wondering what you think of the above named. Both were big names in the 60s and both died fairly recently. I get the impression that since the 60s they did not go on to enjoy the success and fame that they seemed destined for. To be sure both produced many major works that were well received but I am not sure these have placed them in the very centre of our picture of the music of the last 50 years. Some other big names from the 60s seem to have gone on to build stronger reputations. I am not sure why this is. I particularly like Max's music. I know less of Henze and used to find him a little too eclectic in the 60s.
> 
> Anyway, what is your take on these two? And do you think they failed to live up to their earlier promise? And how do you think their reputation will settle?


I'd like to get to know Maxwell Davies's quartets better, the last I listened to was 7 and I can see it's serious music, great music in fact.

Often with Maxwell Davies I find it hard to get a grip in what's happening, the logic, this is I expect my inattention as much as anything else.

As far as earlier promise goes, everyone mentions Mad Kings and I spent some time exploring Vesalii Icones, there were some fun things in the latter.

Another thing I explored was the third symphony, again it felt like music, but was somehow hard to follow the logic, if you know what I mean.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_I have a lot of Henze's music, although I don't consider him avant garde. My Third Ear guide didn't think Henze was worth discussing. The opinion of the music intelligentsia was that he was an old fashioned composer. Maybe he was old fashioned compared to the atonal composers of the 50s & 60s?_

He wrote music in classical formats -- symphonies, concertos, operas, ballet, songs, chamber, solo instrumental … not the unwieldy formatless music that was popular in the postwar era. His language was a mix of the old and new, also. So he didn't completely join the avant-garde bandwagon. Today he seems forgotten.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

My collection boasts music by both composers, at least a dozen discs for each. I'll admit to having spent more hours over the years with the music of Henze (especially the Symphonies and the guitar music), but the music of Maxwell Davies is never far from my consciousness, and I will confess that this past week I not only listened to several PMD recordings (including the _Eight Songs for a Mad King_, a favorite of mine, but also a couple of the String Quartets) but also "played" (at least, practiced playing) a guitar transcription of his _Farewell To Stromness_ (another favorite which, I'm sorry, my fingers do not do justice to on my guitar).

Both of these composers prove interesting and well worth investigating. Both rank high as masters at their craft.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I feel Peter M Davies rather derivative in most of his music I've heard. This one is hilarious though






Henze is a great orchestrator. I like how he doesn't go for cheap thrills, and his music has a lot of structure and more depth than his contemporaries. His 7th Symphony to me is a masterpiece of the last 40 years.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I've only heard some of Davies's "Naxos" quartets. I didn't realize he was regarded as highly as the OP says. 

Henze is one of the greats, though. I wish his music had stronger support.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I listened last night to Naxos 7; I must say, my intuition is telling me that this is a serious and challenging piece of music, if anyone wants to be part of a little listening group to explore it, then say and we can set something up here.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Phil loves classical said:


> I feel Peter M Davies rather derivative in most of his music I've heard. This one is hilarious though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting. Who do you think Maxwell Davies derive his music from? It seems to me to be quite distinctive music, if music that was perhaps written with a rather modest musical character.

I'd also like to know more about how you feel Henze pays more attention to depth and structure than most composers. When I was a teenager I got his first six symphonies out from the library and was not so impressed. I couldn't find a distinctive personality. But I did enjoy El Cimarron more. I've heard the 7th symphony and think I quite liked it. I am listening to now with your big recommendation ringing in my ear. It does seem an impressive work ... although I am in a Maxwell Davies phase and am missing his ... (I'm not sure what the word is but he seems to eschew the gestures we expect in orchestral music in favour of something more personal and maybe more human).


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Both Davies and Henze are composers I always like to listen to, but never find a work that I absolutely love.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> I'd like to get to know Maxwell Davies's quartets better, the last I listened to was 7 and I can see it's serious music, great music in fact.
> 
> Often with Maxwell Davies I find it hard to get a grip in what's happening, the logic, this is I expect my inattention as much as anything else.
> 
> ...


I am not the person to answer this and I am not very consciously aware of the musical logic of even the masters of the distant past. I think it (the logic) works subconsciously for me, though, and I am familiar with the feeling that music is not making sense ... as well as the feeling that it (usually suddenly) _is_ making sense. But as it is not conscious I could not attempt to describe it in terms of logic.

But I do think I know what you mean. I listened to a lot of Orkney years Maxwell Davies some 7-10 years ago. It came to seem on the threshold of making sense to me but in the end didn't seem to deliver. I tried to make it talk to me of landscape or ancient mysteries or some sort of human drama but it wouldn't play any of those roles. I couldn't will meaning into it or discover its meaning and I came away feeling that he was a minor composer. But, then, very recently I got an urge to listen to one of his symphonies (3, 4, 5, 6 - it didn't matter which). I was just drifting off to sleep and I knew I wanted to hear one of them. The next day I did and was amazed! I saw what had attracted me in the first place but also found it all making real sense. And since them I have been through many of my PMD records - the Strathclyde Concertos, the symphonies that are issued on Naxos, some of the earlier concertos (the violin concerto and the trumpet concerto) .. and now the Naxos Quartets.

I don't know about logic but it seems to me that his music is often a sort of patchwork. There is the structure you would expect in a fairly conventional symphony or concerto but there is also a patchwork with passages that are positively tuneful alongside passages of bright or dark (or other) sound as well as passages of "apparently rigorous writing". Overall, he doesn't come over as a composer making big bold statements. His musical character seems modest. And, I don't know how but his Orkney music does seem to say a lot about living in such a place with its small community, its inhospitable weather, its very ancient history.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> I listened last night to Naxos 7; I must say, my intuition is telling me that this is a serious and challenging piece of music, if anyone wants to be part of a little listening group to explore it, then say and we can set something up here.


I'm not sure what a listening group does. I think you know my extreme limitations when it comes to technical matters. I'd be happy to explore the 7th Naxos Quartet but doubt I would be able to contribute much.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I feel Peter M Davies rather derivative in most of his music I've heard. This one is hilarious though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it sounds like cats having sex at some places


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

science said:


> I've only heard some of Davies's "Naxos" quartets. I didn't realize he was regarded as highly as the OP says.
> 
> Henze is one of the greats, though. I wish his music had stronger support.


It may be interesting that many posting seem to be in favour of one or the other. That might even apply to me!

I suggest that Maxwell Davies was once considered as very important (in Britain, at least) because, along with Birtwistle, he was considered to be the greatest British composer of his generation. This was a Britain that was still coming to terms with having produced one of the truly great composers (Britten) so it was no small thing. His 8 Songs for a Mad King, Miss Donnithorne's Maggot and the Leopardi Fragments had announced his presence as a genuinely avant garde British composer.

Then he wrote a symphony - his first - and this was a major event. My mother bought it for me when it came out, not because she knew I had an interest in him or because she had an interest: she just felt it was a major event and might interest me. It was a tough listen and I think his reputation as an almost public figure went down after it. I never got a sense after it that a new PMD work was a major event.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I am almost completely unfamiliar with PMD, but Henze is one of those modern composers, who is actually really interesting - that is one who can compose memorable music. His symphony 7 is a wonderful work, and many of his vocal works (I actually heard only a couple) sound almost expressionistic.
Hans Werner Henze: Nachtstücke und Arien (1957)




Henze: Tristan (1973) - Preludes for piano, tape and orchestra


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

In response to your comment - 
"There is the structure you would expect in a fairly conventional symphony or concerto but there is also a patchwork with passages that are positively tuneful alongside passages of bright or dark (or other) sound as well as passages of "apparently rigorous writing""

My perhaps simplistic thought is that the quick changes, and juxtaposition of different intensities and styles of sound could be a reflection of the extremely variable, and quick changing weather conditions he would have experienced almost daily on Hoy.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm not sure what a listening group does. I think you know my extreme limitations when it comes to technical matters. I'd be happy to explore the 7th Naxos Quartet but doubt I would be able to contribute much.


What would be really good is if someone who's studied Borromini would get involved.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Was Henze close to Nono -- both communists? I like Nono very much, I've never heard any Henze apart from an adaption of a Monteverdi opera he did.


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## Iota (Jun 20, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Was Henze close to Nono -- both communists? I like Nono very much, I've never heard any Henze apart from an adaption of a Monteverdi opera he did.


I read somewhere a couple of years ago that they'd been very close but then Nono felt Henze had compromised (both musically and politically I think) and dumped him mercilessly. 
Henze, who admired Nono, was pretty cut up and tried over the years for some kind of rapprochement, but Nono, very committed and driven never really relented.

Just an off the top of the head memory, and can't remember the source, so don't assume any scholarly accuracy.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

I enjoy Henze greatly (opera and symphonies) and also admired his commitment to Socialism. I always pick up his CDs when I find them at the Sunday Markets here in Berlin.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> Interesting. Who do you think Maxwell Davies derive his music from? It seems to me to be quite distinctive music, if music that was perhaps written with a rather modest musical character.
> 
> I'd also like to know more about how you feel Henze pays more attention to depth and structure than most composers. When I was a teenager I got his first six symphonies out from the library and was not so impressed. I couldn't find a distinctive personality. But I did enjoy El Cimarron more. I've heard the 7th symphony and think I quite liked it. I am listening to now with your big recommendation ringing in my ear. It does seem an impressive work ... although I am in a Maxwell Davies phase and am missing his ... (I'm not sure what the word is but he seems to eschew the gestures we expect in orchestral music in favour of something more personal and maybe more human).


Davies seems to combine 2 fabric pieces into 1, one more traditional like Suk and others, and another with more contemporary techniques like Ligeti and pre-60's Penderecki. I can hear one and the other, but don't feel there is much else he is really saying in his music.

Henze's 7th was supposedly modelled after Beethoven's 5th. I can hear it in terms of dramatic arc overall. His music for different parts combine together to serve the purpose of moods, pictures, and drama like the old masters, rather than juxtoposition of elements as in lot of contemporary music. His musical language has both tonal and atonal elements I find that he manipulates very effectively. Plus Henze doesn't have the keep constantly changing the metre and time signature to be interesting.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^^ Thanks but it seems you have a particular PMD piece in mind? The description doesn't seem to fit with most of his work. I can't think of anything he does which is the slightest bit "traditional like Suk". His voice seems to me to be fairly distinctive and consistent.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> ^^^ Thanks but it seems you have a particular PMD piece in mind? The description doesn't seem to fit with most of his work. I can't think of anything he does which is the slightest bit "traditional like Suk". His voice seems to me to be fairly distinctive and consistent.


Orkney Wedding, Symphony 1 and 5 stand out to me. just my impression.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

They both are great masters in my book, and they have both made wonderful works for guitar. Even so, I know Davies best as orchestra composer and Henze as guitar composer. I never doubted they got the recognition they deserved.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Phil loves classical said:


> Orkney Wedding, Symphony 1 and 5 stand out to me. just my impression.


I like the 5th symphony and the Orkney Wedding is fun if you like getting very drunk. I wonder where in the symphony (minutes in) you find Sukian passages?


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Both are much too musically conservative for my taste.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Iota said:


> I read somewhere a couple of years ago that they'd been very close but then Nono felt Henze had compromised (both musically and politically I think) and dumped him mercilessly.
> Henze, who admired Nono, was pretty cut up and tried over the years for some kind of rapprochement, but Nono, very committed and driven never really relented.
> 
> Just an off the top of the head memory, and can't remember the source, so don't assume any scholarly accuracy.


I'm sorry to hear that. I admire them both very much.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Red Terror said:


> Both are much too musically conservative for my taste.


Perhaps you would prefer Nono? Is perceived conservatism or radical innovation the only deciding factor for enjoying a certain composer? I've tried out loads of so called new consonance as well as serial and more radically dissonant composers but only a handful really connect with me. At this point in time it's difficult to find composers that sound unique with something new to say.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Red Terror said:


> Both are much too musically conservative for my taste.


I just don't see how there's anything conservative about the Mad Max's 7th quartet.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

How about Henze's instrumental Requiem? The recording on Sony is superb. And there's a good live performance on YouTube.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2019)

both henzie and maxie are heavyweights IMHO in contemporary; my notebooks tell me that for henze you need to listen to SY 7, 10 and the barcarola by rattle (i am not a fan of rattle but he did exceptionally well in the contemporary repertoire), henze sq's are great as well as his opera the bassarids;
regarding maxie i would focus on his symphony 10, his SQS, and a fabulous album called the Last Island featuring chamber works performed by the Hebrides Ensemble; 
i am certain there is more to enjoy from these marvelous composers, so i just try to give you their best


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^^ marc - interesting PMD recommendations and I was wondering about your source: is it personal experience (perhaps compared with other works) or are they recommendations from a 3rd party?


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2019)

hi enthusiast, 
my notebooks are a vast ocean of music compiled in a gigantic file that lists my collection consisting of cds recorded after 1980; so yes i have all the recorded works by henze and maxwell davies for example on cd and I have given one star to the best works in the best recorded execution according to my experience; that being said i read diapason magazine, gramophone, prestoclassical in order to make sure i have not overlooked or underestimated any work that might be of interest; many of these sources are not very reliable because they usually defend vested interests; diapason is french, hardly lists any contemporary composers;like you have said before appreciation and judgments are subjective but there are two experts who write on amazon us and nearly always have the same opinion as mine on contemporary; i have no formal musical education whatsoever but have listened to so much music during the last 50 y; basically i do not like rattle, nor bernstein but have to recognise they excel in certain repertoires (especially the composers they frequented); so no there is no third party involved


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^ Well, I am with you on Rattle - he is too fussy - but I think Bernstein is a genius. I like your choices of the 10th symphony and the Naxos quartets (was it those you meant?) but do wonder why not many of the other symphonies and the Strathclyde concertos - all of which are rich and have been widely available for years.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2019)

I like Peter Maxwell Davies. Especially , Farewell to Stromness . I'd like to try and find a video of himself playing this piece.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

This might be the best disc of all to introduce yourself to Maxwell Davies. It is not an easy introduction as such but is a very rewarding one.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2019)

hi enthusiast, sorry for late reply. yes, the maggini quartet is tops for contemporary. the 10 th symphony is just my favourite; it is a late work and very often these are the best because the composer has gathered experience with the medium. there are others i like but i would have to listen again. regarding the strathclyde concertos it is just a hole in my culture. never heard them or saw any mention of them. I will listen and let you know. Thanks for mentioning them.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

The 10th symphony is amazing. It should have won an award the year it came on cd! I grew up with symphony no. 3 and would of course recommend it to interested people. I have enjoyed all his symphonies, string quartets and strathclyde concertos. Sir Davies is one of the composers that I have the most respect for.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> The 10th symphony is amazing. It should have won an award the year it came on cd! I grew up with symphony no. 3 and would of course recommend it to interested people. I have enjoyed all his symphonies, string quartets and strathclyde concertos. Sir Davies is one of the composers that I have the most respect for.


I listened to it now and would give it 6/10. Not a bad symphony for a late 20th century composer, but lacklustre compared to the great symphonies of the past.


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## Alonso (Feb 1, 2019)

It took me quite a few years to appreciate the music of Peter Maxwell Davies (who may suffer by comparison with his more gifted contemporary Birtwitle), but I've finally come to realize he was a damn fine composer nevertheless. Here are some of my favorite works of his:

Vesalii Icones (1969)
Symphony No. 1 (1973–76)
Concerto for Trumpet and Orchestra (1988)
Strathclyde Concerto No. 4 (1990), for clarinet and orchestra
Maxwell's Reel (with Northern Lights) (1998)

The symphonies are unique. They are not perfect but I admire the aeshetic, the vast spaces, the oceanic movement they convey.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is interesting to consider that PMD's contemporary, Birtwistle, is more talented that he was. I instinctively agree and I love Birtwistle's music greatly. But, this is one of the things that are fascinating about PMD. His music seems somehow "smaller" than most contemporary music but when you get inside it you find it can often be epic! The temptation is to consider PMD to be contemporary music's Holst to Birtwistle's Vaughan Williams but is that the case? From the outside, I can see how it is that his music has not thrived to the extent of others from his time but once I get to listening I find there is a wealth of great music.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm surprised! Both Davies and Henze have been around forever (for me). They are like the most famous composers! How does one go about criticizing their compositions?


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## Alonso (Feb 1, 2019)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> How does one go about criticizing their compositions?


I'd say they are established names precisely because they have both been severely overrated at a certain point in their careers. For example, there is simply no way PMD can be reasonably put in the same level as Birtwistle, even though the British keep making that mistake. And I am saying this as someone who actually likes and respects PMD.

In the case of Henze, I have yet to find a feature that is truly unique in his style (for that matter, PMD has a more defined aesthetic, at least in his symhonies). Thus, I am amazed that he gets so much credit. I can think of several other late 20th century german composers that are more accomplished.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^^ But you are also wrong, I think. That was the point of my post 44 - PMD doesn't sound so big or as striking but when you let his music do its thing it is just as great as Birtwistle. Perhaps PMD is more "classical"? Much of Stravinsky's output post-Rite - his "neoclassical" music - is similarly unassuming but it is among the greatest music of his time (which means of any time). The strange thing is I would have agreed with you a month ago. But something called me back to reassess PMD ... and I am loving what I found. It doesn't make me think less of Birtwistle but it has led to a far deeper understanding of PMD. Perhaps I couldn't have forced or willed this upon myself but there was something in the music that called me back and I am glad that I listened.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> What would be really good is if someone who's studied Borromini would get involved.


I was listening to PMD's 10th symphony today and realised that it also is concerned with Borromini. The quartet refers to different Borromini churches but the symphony is more ambitious. This is taken from The Guardian:



> (Great Italian architecture in general has been an important compositional spur for Max: his Third Symphony is a homage to the structural mysteries and genius of Brunelleschi's buildings.) But the symphony is a completely different structure, both in terms of how it is made, and what Max is trying to do in the piece.
> 
> Max asked the LSO if he could have a chorus, and a baritone soloist - and luckily Pappano told him to write for whatever he wanted. His piece is simultaneously a meditation on some of the architectural and mathematical principles that Borromini's work is based on (including, Max says, some of the most controlled yet "wildest music I've written - I bring in lots of clangorous percussion!"), as well as a vocal and choral dramatisation of the end of Borromini's life, his attempted suicide, and the last testament he wrote in the two days between falling on his sword and his eventual death. In addition, the piece starts with the chorus singing a scurrilous sonnet about how Borromini is more fit to be a mason than an architect, and there's also a favourite poem of Leopardi that symbolises, Max says, Borromini's depression.
> 
> This could be a tragically hard-hitting piece - yet Max gives the very end of it an unexpected emotional atmosphere, having the chorus chant the names of Borromini's great buildings. As he told me, "It's saying: look what Borromini did despite his depression and whatever else he was going through. I think it's an upbeat ending: and in the first rehearsal we had, even I was rather moved by it."


It might make sense broadening your study of the 7th quartet to include this symphony and also the rather austere 3rd symphony?


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2019)

as promised i listened to the strathclyde concertos and especially liked nos 5 and 10; however the cycle is not in the same league as MD's SQ cycle; i also listened again to the symphonies and was very intrigued by the ninth which is full of different ideas; no 10 remains my favourite


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

This thread seemed to do more for Maxwell Davies than for Henze. As Henze is getting mentioned a lot by several posters at the moment I thought I would bump it to see if we can enrich the Henze discussion with some more examples of his best music.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Royal Winter Music I & II by Henze is a fantastic classic of modern guitar music. Thanks to Sir Julian Bream and Reinbert Evers. My old teacher David Tanenbaum is famous for his recordings of them and also Henze's guitar concerto "Ode an eine Äolsharfe", written especially for Tanenbaum.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Only know maxwell Davies from his guitar music, but Henze was (and remains) a huge name. You can't call anyone a middling success who wrote something like a dozen operas, several of which have become established regular repertoire
> 
> Henze flirted with the avant-garde but much of his work also has strong tonal associations. He is one of those composers like Dutilleux that is too traditionalist for the ultra-modernists but too modern for the atonophobes


Great post, 
Your post along with others on Henze, The composer who refuses to be defined, boxed into a category, defies expectations.

His SQ 2 from 1952 shows how closely he studied the 3 great 2nd Viennese masters , yet in no way borrows/copies ideas, He makes the atonal method with a unique voice, yet never strays into ultra mod experimentations. . Shows his creativity level was smoking hot as early as 1952. 
I've yet to explore his operas, yet right now my Henze plate is full, like a feast set for a king. 
Just received the Wergo set. 
The 1st SQ is nothing much, from 1947, his 2nd is a major achievement . Not sure how he flew under the modern's radar, perhaps there were not many recordings from the 1960's of Henze. At least I never recall seeinga Henze selection in the LP bins back in the late 1970's. 
It was all about Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky and such. Composers I have nothing of in my 300+ cd collection. 
This 2nd SQ is playing right now as I type. Just this 2nd SQ equals any of Shostakovich's 15. 
But as we know Shostakovich's 15 has great notoriety and fame. 
Times are a changing , the poet wrote. 
This is 2019, where access to YT allows free exploration. And that might be a issue, it is free. The performers do not receive monetary benefits, not to mention the composer/and his immediate family if he has passed on. 
Perhaps if enough hear and appreciate modern classics on YT and then see a local concert listing which features some new modern music they heard on YT, , maybe they will attend. Only then can performers receive their rightful fees.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

starthrower said:


> I haven't listened to Davies. I have a lot of Henze's music, although I don't consider him avant garde. My Third Ear guide didn't think Henze was worth discussing. The opinion of the music intelligentsia was that he was an old fashioned composer. Maybe he was old fashioned compared to the atonal composers of the 50s & 60s? He sounds modern to my ears, and I enjoy most of his symphonies, and his second violin concerto.


Yes I have read in several Wergo releases notes, how Henze had to *get the hell out of Dodge* there in the late 1940's from some german critics, and he settled in Italy for a place of reprieve and creativity. Lucky for us, he did not grow embittered, but shrugged it off and went on to *I did it my way* 
This Ardetti is now performing the 3rd SQ, it is a 19 minute one movement, Just unreal. Unreal

Written in 1975/76, as I was graduating from high school, a complete mixed up kid. Which explains why I love Henze so intensely, He speaks my language, I mean he speaks as does Webern. Powerful affects, effects upon me. 
Henze is definitely as modern as Elliott Carter. I hear Carter and Henze as twin spirits. Like Ravel and Debussy were kin in musical compositions.

I hope the CMGers who made vain, strenuous attempts to introduce me to Henze back in 2004/05, would know today, that I am a ,,,
Henzeian.
I think some CMGers knew instinctively it was justa matter of time before I had a encounter with Henze. 
And so it did, love at ,,well not 1st,,took about 2 weeks to figure out what I was hearing. Then it was like a revelation, , my inner mind just stopped all hyper criticism and let the music play its magic. 
I have always been hyped critical , for various reasons. One reason for my hesitation to embrace the new, is that I am not trained musically and so takes some time to understand whats going on. 
Other hangup I have in accepting off the bat, is my hobby of critiquing recordings. Recall my posts back then, I was labeled the *one minute clip review guy*.

I got pretty good at it quite frankly. But only on works I knew very well how its suppose to go.
With Henze, won't work as all/every recording has its value. there are no bad recordings in Henze, all are exceptiona and all are *must haves* all are *definitive*. as each record, offers a inner revelation of the composers genius, which not 1 can ultimately define and all are needed to usher in a more fuller light, power, color, of Henze's master works, his entire opus. 
Yeah I've read reviews of other Henzeians on amazon, who are a bit picky of one recording over another. 
I so far, just can not find sufficient cause for rejecting any of my duplicates.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

KRoad said:


> I enjoy Henze greatly (opera and symphonies) and also admired his commitment to Socialism. I always pick up his CDs when I find them at the Sunday Markets here in Berlin.


 Whats the Berliners opinion of Henze lately, now that there are many more recordings in print?

I regard Henze as superior to his compatriot Karl Hartman, thus becoming germany's greatest composer (excepting Richard Wagner obviously) Do the german musical community know that Henze is their greatest composer?

Also must be really cool, picking up budget price Henze cds at a market. 
Are these cds that one can find on amazon or recordings which are on small labels, thus will never reach USA shores?

lastly
Is Henze programed in german concerts/often?


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