# Let's talk Cosi fan Tutte



## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

Greetings- I'm not an opera expert, but I am a bit of a Mozart freak. Something happened over the last year in the course of listening to my Mozart collection and I have become completely obsessed with this opera. 

I see the humor and true raw beauty in the music. Does anyone else out there think this is Mozarts best? I've listened to Nozze, Giovanni, Tito, and Zauberflöte in their entirety as well as excerpts from others. While they each blow my mind I consider Cosi a step above. This wasn't the case at first- it was an acquired taste, if you will. 

I understand that hearing the right conductor and recording makes almost all the difference when hearing classical music- I have many different versions of the operas listed above- however, musically speaking, I cannot hear the same outpouring of artistry in the other major operas. Melodically, yes of course, but on a whole I do not- is it the ensemble aspect of Cosi? Perhaps it is the parody/ serious occurrence at the same time. Don't misunderstand me- I love love love the others, but there is something really unique about Cosi. After reading the book by Bruce Alan Brown on Cosi I also have a whole new understanding for the artistic composition of this opera. Has anyone else read this book?

I get the impression that Cosi is the most polarizing of Mozarts operas. I find that extremely interesting. I tend to not like the conducting and playing styles of the larger mid twentieth century orchestras- personally I like the Mackerras version the best of Cosi.

One more thing- not knowing Italian or German enables me to listen more to the emotion and sounds of the music and not the script. Does anyone else find this helpful?

The versions of Cosi I own are Gardiner, Bohm 1962, Davis/ Caballe, Seguin, both Solti's, 1935 Glyndebourne, Mackerras, and the Glyndenourne Dvd.

On the inside of the liner notes of the Bohm version, Reynaldo Hahn is quoted, "I sure you that from a musical point of view these are the works of a mere beginner compared with the sublimity of Cosi fan Tutte." I find that to be a statement that would cause much discord.


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## DaDirkNL (Aug 26, 2013)

It is indeed a magical opera, full of beauty, wit and spirit. I highly recommend this performance(Ivan Fischer conducting):



This performance made me fall in love with Cosi fan tutte. I have also heard bits and pieces from Mackerras's interpretation.

I think it is a close call, but I agree with you that it is Mozart's finest opera. The only thing I consider weak is the whole dress-up-as-Albanians-thing. It's not likely one becomes completely unrecognisable simply by putting on a moustache! However, the music is sublime, en the poetry Da Ponte wrote is deeply thoughtful. Therefore I dismiss my own criticism.

By the way: 'Soave sia il vento' must be one of the most beautiful things ever written. A few months ago I let my grandfather, who loves classical music, hear it and the moment the singing began he burst into tears. That is the power of music, and of Mozart.


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

I dont really like movies at all anymore. However, the movies l enjoy most are really dumb comedies- National Lampoons Christmas Vacation, The Three Amigos, The Naked Gun... I think that the notion of moustachioed Albanians appearing and being able to win the hearts of women who are engaged so absurd as to be brilliant... And really funny. If it wasnt the mustaches it wouldnt be as funny. While I obviously don't think this would happen in real life, I do think that even married couples have wandering eyes, and therein lies some of the painful truths to be found in this opera.

Maybe this is part of the appeal of Mozart's great operas. Art that is so brilliant and serious built on some of the most absurd situations.

Thank you for the link, I would like to check it out later today. It is strange that there are so few people that I know of that are into classical music. It is good to come across this message board. Thank you for your response.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The most tiresome of Mozart's great operas, in my opinion. The ensembles don't wear well with me. I prefer Figaro and Flute.


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

While I disagree, I understand totally why you feel that way. Especially in the second act, there are times when the action seems to drag. IMO, this happens more or less in all of the operas to some extent. Also, I am coming from the viewpoint of one who has strictly listened to the operas, not seeing them. This is where I feel the right conductor and orchestra comes into play. I do not feel the larger orchestras translate well onto a recording of this opera, nor do the slower tempos do the music justice.

To each his own- and to me Cosi is not the opera everyone turns to first, but the one that is the cream of the crop. To use an bad analogy... Led Zeppelin 2 or 4 is universally adored and considered first... but Physical Graffiti is the album that is their artistic nirvana, if you will. So to me is Mozart's Cosi.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Utah Opera is doing this in March and I get to see it live. Sorry folks!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Last time I watched this brilliant opera live was in early 2013, with a staging by the renowned Austrian movie director Michael Haneke. An interesting proposal. 

I also love this "Scuola degli amanti", only perhaps a little bit less than "Don Giovanni".


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I know I've said this before but I still can't help feeling that the work seems over-long - it needs Mozart's music to be at its most compelling to sustain what I think is a pretty ho-hum story which spreads itself too thinly over the course of between two-and-a-half and three hours. Maybe there are subtle, multi-faceted aspects at work which I can't detect but there are times when I think CFT drags in places despite the excellence of the music. Out of Mozart's acknowledged operatic masterworks this is the only one which anything like underwhelms me - and that's not Mozart's fault.


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## Speranza (Nov 22, 2014)

I love Cosi Fan Tutte but I wouldn't consider it his best I think that belongs to Marriage of Figaro. I have seen it twice, once where the ending was all the farce is over happy ever after. The other which was in Glyndebourne 2006 and a brilliant production. At the end you think everything has been resolved but then you see the partners looking lovingly behind each others backs at the people they had been wooing/wooed by when disguised. Which I thought was a great twist and added lots of layers.

I was wondering which is the more generally used ending and/or Mozart's original? I assume the happy ever after but because I have only seen two I don't know.


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

Hello Speranza. I'm not sure which is the most generally used ending, but the ambiguity of it all adds to the allure for me. This can be heard in the overture as the melody is passed from clarinet, flute, and oboe- it's as if everything is unsettled. This is also conveyed by the sudden tempo changes. I went through a life changing event last year that left me in a self diagnosed sense of shell shock. The Ab quartet at the end of act 2 shows the two couples in a false sense of happiness and security; Gugliemo being completely angry- what just happened!? Everything is fubared- its kind of schizo to me. I wonder what the characters were doing during the final moments of the opera on stage during the premier. I would love to go back in time to see that performance!

I cannot recommend highly enough the Mackerras version of Cosi. The overall big picture I feel is best captured... and with superb sound quality. I have my quibbles but that goes without say. It is very cheap too, but don't let the price fool you. You can even get his box of the four great operas for about 22$.

Do you have a preferred version of Figaro? The Gardniner, Mackerras, and Marriner versions were the three I have- the Ricevete straight through the end of the act is jaw dropping- obviously.


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## Speranza (Nov 22, 2014)

I am so sorry you had a bad time last year musivc I hope the coming New year is much better for you.

Musically I don't know if behind back ending is there from the start but in the production, which was conventional and hadn't fiddled around with plot, it came as a surprise but one that made total sense at the same time.

I am afraid I am no kind of analyser of music (I couldn't tell you what instruments were playing though kudos to you for knowing) but I have just listened to the overture again and it does seem rather melancholic for a pure farce. I think the plot and the title points to the happy ever after ending and the finale sings about finding laughter and joy in life again pointing to farce. Then again DA Ponte and Mozart were so good at mixing comedy with tragedy and the going behind each others back ending does fit the story really well especially, if I remember correctly, the two girls really like the Albanian wooers for having aspects their betrothed did not. I think there both good ways to go and I would happily watch either ending.

My favourite version of Figaro was by Opera Australia in 2009 or 10. I didn't think the singing was top notch, still good though, but the acting was superb. Which might not be for you as you sound much more musically inclined/aware then myself


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

I appreciate the kind words, but imo anyone who is listening to Mozart operas on any kind of intellectual level has to be musically inclined. In fact, I wish I was more musically inclined. I usually have to listen to something 1 million times before I finally get it. Thus is the case with Cosi fan Tutte. Listening 1 million times, but also reading about the music.

With this in mind I am kind of perplexed that this opera is not given the same amount of love as the other big Mozart operas...and if I'm wrong about that then at least I can say with confidence that it polarizes more than the others. It is not as big on spectacle as Figaro or Don Giovanni, nor does it have all of the *hits* that his other operas have. However, from what I've heard and then read about Cosi it is obvious that Mozart took great artistic effort to make Cosi a work on a whole 'nother level of creation- 

I will try to provide examples later. I think everyone would find these curious- it's all for good discussion.


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## Speranza (Nov 22, 2014)

Lol you're right I probably should have said musically knowledgeable rather then inclined. 

I am not sure I will ever get the hidden meaning in the music, it can take me a few goes to even get the plot sometimes!  

I can understand why it might not be as popular as the others. It has the sort of plot that is not going to be for everyone and as you say no massive show stoppers. Having said that I don't think it is massively less popular if at all. When I first started watching opera it was one of the operas I had heard of. Admittedly I did think it was the German for The Magic Flute  so I can't say I was as aware of it as I was Carmen or Figaro. But it was at least on my (obviously malfunctioning) radar.

I would be interested to learn more about Cosi, thank you


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

The Glyndebourne DVD is great. I highly recommend René Jacobs's recording in period style.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

It is one of those operas I am growing into. It lags behind Don Giovanni, Le Nozzle and Die Zauberflote in that sense.

I have several DVDs and now have the full opera when I bought the Currentzis cd. I noticed this has got some rough reviews. I quite like what I hear but I have little reference to compare it with.

I will continue to listen and try and enjoy this opera


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

The Michael Haneke produced DvD is my favorite version video wise.


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

For instance, the first three numbers, like Don Giovanni, spell out the key of the overture, In this case c major: c-e-g. The first song starts on G then the next one goes down a third to E, the next down to C. Then with Ah Guarda, the key again goes down a third to A. Then the next number goes down a whole step to G. I believe it is written by Landon in the liner notes to the second Solti version, that it, "must have hinted to the Cognoscenti that all will not be well for the lovers." "The downwards progression of course reflects the increasing difficulties for the protagonists." In the liner notes it is indicated that Mozart was inspired by Haydn's La fedelta premiata. Fwiw I do not care for the second Solti version but the liner notes were awesome.

Somewhere I read that the first sounds of love in the opera can be heard with Ah Guarda, which may be an indication of where Mozarts sympathies lie.

Come Scoglio- Fiordiligi sings a very unstable melody about how stable her faith is!

I know there is more musically specific strokes of genius that I will get to that I have read about. I am just on my lunch break now and just tried to post what I could remember.


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## Cypress (Dec 19, 2014)

Fabulous Thread! I am about to watch for the first time, Cosi Fan Tutte on DVD I am loaning from my public library. It is Cecilia Bartoli as Fiordiligi. Copyright 2000 from Zurich Opera House February 2000.

I am very new to opera and fell in love with a CD of Bartoli singing Mozart Arias. She sings several arias and a duet from Lucio Silla. And, several from Cosi Fan Tutte. I just finished a home study program by Dr. Robert Greenberg on The Operas of Mozart so am somewhat educated before I listen. I cannot WAIT til later tonight to watch this. 

I also ordered the opera via Amazon of Lucio Silla with Cecilia Bartoli as Cecilio. 

I can connect very well to your love of Herr Mozart. I have been listening to his Piano Concerto's 20 & 21 and find everything he does so exceptional and brilliant. But, I am feeling I think the Mozart Effect as it were of great music inside of me. I will let you know what I think of the Opera shortly and with a fresh mind to it


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## Cypress (Dec 19, 2014)

Oh, I understand that Amadeo was the name given to him by the Italians as a nickname. That Amadeus somehow stuck over the years, or prehaps Mozart himself took it on as a name. It is not a given name by his parents. 

But, what does Amadeo mean? I have some Italian and wondered if it is a put together word perhaps? Ama + Deo. Could it be God Loves him?


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## Celloissimo (Mar 29, 2013)

I'd also agree that Cosi is the est. Along with the music being sublime which has already been made quite clear in the thread, a lot of people don't realize how laugh out-out-loud hilarious the libretto is if you actually read it.


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## Cypress (Dec 19, 2014)

Celloissimo said:


> I'd also agree that Cosi is the est. Along with the music being sublime which has already been made quite clear in the thread, a lot of people don't realize how laugh out-out-loud hilarious the libretto is if you actually read it.


I just watched Act 1 and prefer Cosi to Le Nozze di Figaro. I find Dorabella and Fiordiligi highly like able. Those men deserve a kick in the bum! The acting in this version is very good. Don Alfonso played by Carlos Chausson is well played. This is the first time I've watched it. Cosi for me


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I checked out the Fleming/Solti on Decca from the library today. Spinning that one later on.


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

Cypress said:


> Oh, I understand that Amadeo was the name given to him by the Italians as a nickname. That Amadeus somehow stuck over the years, or prehaps Mozart himself took it on as a name. It is not a given name by his parents.
> 
> But, what does Amadeo mean? I have some Italian and wondered if it is a put together word perhaps? Ama + Deo. Could it be God Loves him?


Mozart was baptized as 'Joannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart'

"Theophilus" comes from Greek and is variously rendered as "lover of God" or "loved by God." "Gottlieb" is its German form, and the familiar form "Amadeus" is its Latin form. Joannes Theophilus Pergmaÿr was the name of Mozart's godfather so it seems Mozart was named after him. Writing of the child after his birth Leopold Mozart (writing in German) calls him Gottlieb.
The Mozarts were fluent in at least four languages so the Amadeus/Gottlieb forms sometimes seem to vary depending on the language they were writing in. Mozart himself seems to have used the Amadeus/Amadeo form as a joke.


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

You can probably tell from my user name that I like this opera. In mood and texture Cosi is the most sensuously beautiful of Mozart's operas but I personally still rate it below Don Giovanni and Le Nozze di Figaro.

I think it makes no sense at the end for the lovers to exchange their original partners. After all Fiordiligi did not fall for Ferrando but a exotic mustachioed Albanian named Sempronio. She may still hanker for Sempronio at the end but Ferrando would be no substitute.
Then consider the men's situation as there was no disguise there. Why would their original affections have switched? Switched off I could accept if the libretto went that way - their lovers 'betrayed' them - but switched? no.
I know producers often introduce some sort of play acting in the finale to suggest the original pairings are not as stable and secure as they might otherwise seem. But I think Mozart has already indicated this is an "uncomfortable" rather than a "happy" ending by undermining the rather ironic praise to tolerance and reason by using the same musical phrase to which Fiordiligi had sung of her constancy in 'Come scoglio' 

One of my favourite parts is when Fiordiligi, Dorabella and Ferrando sing 'E nel tuo' and Guglielmo is singing 'I wish the faithless bitches were drinking poison'. Guglielmo is a bass and 'E nel tuo' would be too high for him to sing so Mozart and Da Ponte used this to make a dramatic point.

Favourite story about this opera (from Wikipedia): According to William Mann, Mozart disliked prima donna Adriana Ferrarese del Bene, da Ponte's arrogant mistress for whom the role of Fiordiligi had been created. Knowing her idiosyncratic tendency to drop her chin on low notes and throw back her head on high ones, Mozart filled her showpiece aria Come scoglio with constant leaps from low to high and high to low in order to make Ferrarese's head "bob like a chicken" onstage.

For Blueray/DVD performances I really like the 2006 Glyndebourne production with Miah Persson - excellent acting as well.


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## Speranza (Nov 22, 2014)

They don't switch partners but look at each others partners with a new romantic sort of interest. When the men were in disguise the women fancied the men who looked least like their own fiancees and prefered the others personalities. They had a choice which one to go for and the men they who picked though pretending to be other people would likely still have been displaying aspects of their own character (unless they were brilliant actors). The whole situation would have made everyone see each other in a new light so I don't think showing them as attracted to their albanian fiancee as well as their own is particularly far fetched.

The men being attracted to their non-fiancee, your right is more of a stretch but seeing as they spent perhaps more time with them while wooing them as albanians then they would have ever done before, It could lead to more feelings emerging.

Lets be honest though none of them are great examples of a healthy relationship  and I never thought the men were likely to be much more faithful if they were put to a similar test. They didn't really know who Dorabella and Fiordiligi were at the beginning of the opera so their love was I felt about as strong as the girls.

Haydn's opera seems to me (from the wiki synopsis) to go for a happy farce ending but crikey that plot is complicated, you got to love it.

Bit of a rush hope that all made sense


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The story of Cosi is pretty far fetched but then aren't most operas including Figaro (think who his mum turns out to be) and most others and I won't start on Wagner! But the music of Cosi is utterly sublime - Mozart sustains the whole thing with one masterpiece after another. It is pointless debating the greatest Mozart opera - the three Da Ponte's and the Flute are all up there - but just to say no-one but no-one has bettered them! 
For Cosi just watch the bewitching Glyndebourne DVD under Fischer.
For audio the Jacobs or Bohm


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

I will likely soon hash out the dough for the Jacobs set. The Bohm I find much too heavy and slow orchestrally although I like how clearly the second clarinets can be heard in the Secondate and the last measures before El nuo. The singing is superb, otherwordly- I just have a hard time with Bohm here. I cannot recommend the Mackerras enough though.

Now back to the music. Taken from Bruce Alan Brown's book: Pg 109

"Mozart comically elides isolated syllables from adjacent words ('Di- scri- ver- _mi o_- gni gior- no', Due vol- _te an_- co- ra'), and accompanies the women's broken declamation with repeated note sobs in the violins. Fiordiligi demonstrates constancy by clinging to the fifth scale degree for 6 full bars, in octaves with the bassoons; she and they move away from their C's precisely at the point where she sings the word 'costante'! Just before the line 'Mi so divide il cor, bell'idol mio', the violas, in unison up to now, 'divide' into two parts. To all of this Alfonso can only mutter to himself 'Io crepo se non rido!'

Each of the musical details just enumerated seconds the humor of the text- as Constanze Mozart seems to have percieved. These features likewise mark the quintet as belonging to a family of similar _entrecoupe_ pieces in opera buffa, which could be either mock tragic or truly serious. And yet what the listener notices most in no. 9 is its luminous texture and harmonies, which coexist with the comic elements without in any way interfering with them. Mozart fills out the vocal texture one part at a time, over the pizzicato basses sixfold cadential pattern which seems to hold off indefinitely the moment of departure. At bar 7 the lovers leave off their fragmentary utterances and sore in new harmonic directions; at the same time the viola line is freed from its previous oscillation, and moves in gentle counterpoint with the voices, as a wordless, sympathetic observer. As the women respond to the men's farewell a crescendo, the splitting of the viola line and a deceptive cadence combine to suggest a sudden welling up of emotion. And as the four lovers sing together for the first time in the piece, the clarinets, unheard until now, enter with the bassoons and double the voice parts in their cadence, whose repetition is sensuosly ornamented by Fiordiligi. Comedy returns surreptitiously under the final 'addio's with Alfonso's tonic- dominant ostinato, after which a single orchestral cord wrenches the lovers and the audience back to the cheerful irony of ' Bella vita militar'."

Brown _Cosi fan tutte_

I will type what he wrote about Ah guarda soon- it puts the song on a level much greater than the ear candy it is. I hope no one minds all that information. I just want to share it with everyone because I feel it is important.


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## Speranza (Nov 22, 2014)

DonAlfonso said:


> For Blueray/DVD performances I really like the 2006 Glyndebourne production with Miah Persson - excellent acting as well.


I think that is the production I was talking about. I just re-watched the ending on youtube and I am pretty sure there is a romantic glance between Fiordiligi and Ferrando (hope I have the right people) Which is of course only one couple not the two that I falsely remembered, I watched that production twice you would think I would remember it better. So my sincere apologies especially for wasting peoples time. Maybe I have been reading to much into it. If I have it still made me think about Cosi Fan Tutte a lot more deeply then I had before the whole more serious tone of the ending did for which I am grateful.


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

Concerning the symmetry of Cosi, and the compositional expertise, painting, and marriage of the music with words, we should look at 'Ah Guarda sorella'. 

Brown, Cosi pg 114

"The musical parrallelisms in Cosi are at their most obvious in 'Ah guarda, sorella', which begins the demonstration that 'all women are like that'. The clarinets and bassoons dulcet melody in thirds, the airy string accompaniment, and A- major tonality announce the setting by the shore, and offer the opera's first sounds (as opposed to talk of) love. The ritornello mainly previews Fiordiligi's music: her sighs as she contemplates her fiancé's portrait, and her melismatic cadence which illustrates the word 'ritrovar' by finding the tonic on its final syllable.

Such literal illustrations are by no means uncommon in Mozart; the composer himself points out several in a letter describing Belmonte's second aria in Die Entführung aus dem Serail. Whereas Fiordiligi emphasizes the 'fair mouth' and 'noble mien' of her lover Guglielmo, Dorabella adopts a more declamatory style and lets the staccato string accompaniment describe the fire and arrows shot off by Ferrando's glances. Having contrasted their lovers (or rather, their tastes in lovers), in the transitional section which follows the sisters show signs of envy, and incorporate elements from each other's descriptions. Exchange is also evident in the final bars are transition before the allegro, as the sister sing of their happiness in mirror image:

Fior: Felice son io!
Dor: Io sono felice!

The faster second section of the duet (still in scenario), the two sisters, singing together for the first time, make a vow to Cupid that is a pendant to the wager their menfolk have made:

Se questo mio core
Mai cangia desio
Amore mi faccia
Vivendo penar.
(if this heart ever changes desire, let Cupid make me suffer a life of torture.)

Mention of Cupid brings a drastic slowing of declination for a burlesque invocation of the God: the sisters respond to the rocketing cellos and bassoons with exquisitely ornamented fermatas, the second of them adagio. The rising and then falling chromaticism of the cadence phrases imparts and erotic ambiguity to the significance of 'penar'.

The long coda consists mainly of self-inflicted vocal tortures: demonstrating constancy, Dorabella holds the 'nar' of 'penar' on an e" for nine full bars, while Fiordiligi declaims the entire quatrain to falling in rising arpeggios. But the idea of steadfastness is undermined when the singers exchange material; the repeat of the passage is in a higher register, with Fiordiligi sustaining an even more painful a". The comic forte outbursts in their cadential preparations herald many more in their music to come.

The suggestions of exchange in the sisters duet about constancy are followed by others in the soldiers duettino 'Al fato dan legge'. The piece is often omitted and performance, on account of it's rather meagre melodic inspiration, but it's several pointed references to 'Ah guarda' give the duettino an importance beyond it's modest scope. The pieces are alike in poetic meter and instrumentation; in the men's duet, too, the God of love is invoked, and rising and falling chromatic lines are neatly balanced. And once again there is a cadential pun: melismas on the word 'tornar' (set against sustained notes) which refuse to 'return' to the tonic degree. As in the coda to 'Ah guarda' the singers exchange their material.

The game of finding the tonic is connected to more general problems in the melodic design of the piece. Each of Ferrando's short phrases gains but one pitch over the last, until the line stalls on the fourth scale degree-reflecting the intentionally comic mismatch between the short scenario versus and the overly elaborate thoughts the men try to express with them.

It is tempting to see this melody's tentative launching as an analogue of the soldiers reluctant departure, and the subsequent exchange of material on 'tornar' as representing your switch of partners returning."


So it is that the many layers of this opera can be uncovered and revealed, in all of its brilliance. Alfred Einstein called it a "glorious iridescent soap bubble". While this opera is not big on spectacle, is is over abundant in musical finesse and mastery.


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

From Vincent Novello's journal when he met Constanze Mozart Nissen.

"In Cosi fan Tutte she (Constanze) remarked that in 'Di Scrivermi' (which I guess was one of his great favorites) you could actually fancy the sobs and tears of the performers- also noticed the extraordinary difference of the melodies he has assigned to the various characters and the wonderful appropriateness of them- The passages of the ghost part of done Giovanni made one's hair stand on end... she does not admire the plot of Cosi, but agreed with me that such music would carry any peace through..."


Personally, I would love to go back in time and see the original performance of this or any of Mozart's great operas.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

HC Robbins Landon described Cosi as the most formally perfect of Mozart's operas. I'd be reluctant to place any work of opera above Figaro, DG, or Magic Flute - but I feel the same about Cosi. It has everything. The great sextet in act 1 is just the most astounding thing, they all gone demented until the sopranos holler at the end and a horn earthwires it to bring it back down again. It's stunning. It lacks the physical warmth of the other two da Ponte operas, for me, but that's not a criticism. _Soave _is the most gorgeous music I've ever listened to. The second act is still opening itself up to me - I once went whole months just listening to CD1 in my Bohm 2 disc set. :lol:


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Thank you musicv for the detailed posts and the quotes. I'll put the Cosi book by Brown on my reading list.

In fact Cosi is the one that got the least attention from me of the 3 da Ponte's. Only the last years I have been really diving into it, and seeing it in the theater twice. It's without a doubt a masterpiece. Although (in my humble opinion) the aria's can't match the ones in Don Giovanni, the quintets are sublime. My favorite is "Di scrivermi ogni giorno", the second quintet, two minutes of indescribable beauty.

My favorite recording is still Gardiner, here I don't like Jacobs tempi at some places. For videos the Glyndebourne and the Salzburg.

At the moment my favorite Mozart soprano is Maria Bengtsson. So far there is not much on CD/DVD, but youtube has some. By accident I discovered her when she replaced the original Contessa in ROH's 2013 Figaro, and that combined with Gardiner's conducting was just superb. In 2014 I travelled to Milan to hear her Fiordiligi, which is complete on youtube:


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

musivc said:


> Personally, I would love to go back in time and see the original performance of this or any of Mozart's great operas.


If you haven't already, I recommend to travel to Prague and attend a performance at the theater where Mozart himself conducted Figaro and the premiere of Don Giovanni. It's holy ground for opera nerds like me. It's a bit like travelling back into time.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Dongiovanni said:


> If you haven't already, I recommend to travel to Prague and attend a performance at the theater where Mozart himself conducted Figaro and the premiere of Don Giovanni. It's holy ground for opera nerds like me. It's a bit like travelling back into time.


. . . and one of the most beautiful cities on the planet. I haven't been there, but some of my family has and they gush over how gorgeous it is.

What an absolute _treat_ to see _Cosi_ there!!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Count me among those who include _Cosi fan tutte_ among Mozart's finest achievements... and Mozart among the 2 or three finest composers bar none. I am a sworn lover of Wagner and Richard Strauss... and of course Italian opera... especially when sung by a certain Greek goddess. Still Mozart's finest operas remain something quite special in my book. I have eight CD recordings of _Cosi fan tutte:_



My favorites (I like them all) are probably Jacobs, both by Bohm, and the early Karajan... and of course the Glyndebourne DVD production is absolutely delicious:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Count me among those who include _Cosi fan tutte_ among Mozart's finest achievements... and Mozart among the 2 or three finest composers bar none. I am a sworn lover of Wagner and Richard Strauss... and of course Italian opera... especially when sung by a certain Greek goddess. Still Mozart's finest operas remain something quite special in my book. I have eight CD recordings of _Cosi fan tutte:_
> 
> 
> 
> My favorites (I like them all) are probably Jacobs, both by Bohm, and the early Karajan... and of course the Glyndebourne DVD production is absolutely delicious:


And out of all those permutations and combinations of Fiordiligis and Dorabellas, what would be your top three for Act I's _"Ah guarda, sorella"_?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

And out of all those permutations and combinations of Fiordiligis and Dorabellas, what would be your top three for Act I's "Ah guarda, sorella"?

Hmmm... can you beat Lisa della Casa and Christa Ludwig? Unless its Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and Christa Ludwig (both under the true Mozartian, Bohm). Then again... you also have Schwarzkopf and Nan Merriman under early Karajan.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> And out of all those permutations and combinations of Fiordiligis and Dorabellas, what would be your top three for Act I's "Ah guarda, sorella"?
> 
> Hmmm... can you beat Lisa della Casa and Christa Ludwig? Unless its Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and Christa Ludwig (both under the true Mozartian, Bohm). Then again... you also have Schwarzkopf and Nan Merriman under early Karajan.


All of whom I like very much for this reason or that. . . but two which especially stand out for me-- and for totally different reasons-- are: the Schwarzkopf/Merriman on the fifties Karajan/Philharmonia for the balanced delicacy of their vocal harmonizations; and of course for Schwarzkopf's corruscading femininity; and the second one being the Sena Jurianac from 1950 on EMI; with that spunkiness and gorgeous high end.

So, all claimants to the throne considered, its Schwarzkopf and Jurinac for me.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> . . . and one of the most beautiful cities on the planet. I haven't been there, but some of my family has and they gush over how gorgeous it is.
> 
> What an absolute _treat_ to see _Cosi_ there!!


Prague is certainly a very beautiful city! Recommended!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> All of whom I like very much for this reason or that. . . but two which especially stand out for me-- and for totally different reasons-- are: the Schwarzkopf/Merriman on the fifties Karajan/Philharmonia for the balanced delicacy of their vocal harmonizations; and of course for Schwarzkopf's corruscading femininity; and the second one being the Sena Jurianac from 1950 on EMI; with that spunkiness and gorgeous high end.
> 
> So, all claimants to the throne considered, its Schwarzkopf and Jurinac for me.


I've got Karajan Cosi on order!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I've got Karajan Cosi on order!


I ABSOLUTELY envy you your discovery.

God is Elisabeth gorgeous in it. The whole thing is a treasure of course. But Elisabeth Schwartzkopf is just the stuff of angels.

Cheers._ ;D_


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I've got Karajan Cosi on order!


It's a classic.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Dongiovanni said:


> Thank you musicv for the detailed posts and the quotes. I'll put the Cosi book by Brown on my reading list.
> 
> In fact Cosi is the one that got the least attention from me of the 3 da Ponte's. Only the last years I have been really diving into it, and seeing it in the theater twice. It's without a doubt a masterpiece. Although (in my humble opinion) the aria's can't match the ones in Don Giovanni, the quintets are sublime. My favorite is "Di scrivermi ogni giorno", the second quintet, two minutes of indescribable beauty.
> 
> ...


This was Guth's pointless and dreadful realisation which basically does violence to the genius of Mozart and da Ponte. When will these half baked directors realise it is a period piece which if you take out the period rather loses its point. Must confess these smart updated productions do nothing but annoy me.


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

Wow! This is a lot to take in- bear with me I don't have internet at the moment but there is so much to say! First, I agree about the arias in Don Giovanni. However I think of them more as hits as opposed to compositional and musical realizations of artistic depths. I'm sure that I am wrong on one level, but I think that Cosi has the years of experience of Mozart's writing culminating into his penultimate expression. I know that The Magic Flute has a certain warmth to it. That was my favorite opera for a couple of years until my revelation about Cosi. It is really hard to explain. However I think with the right recordings and life experiences, as with anything, that Cosi fan Tutte truly shines as a beacon of musical light. This weekend I would like to share with everyone some insight about Per Pieta written Brown's book. I bought the book written by Brown from Amazon used, I recommend it to everyone who loves musical insight, especially from the greatest, Mozart.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I ABSOLUTELY envy you your discovery.
> 
> God is Elisabeth gorgeous in it. The whole thing is a treasure of course. But Elisabeth Schwartzkopf is just the stuff of angels.
> 
> Cheers._ ;D_


You mean in terms of singing, of course! Elizabeth appears to have been less angelic in her behaviour under the Third Reich!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just listening to Cosi again - it bowls along on an incredible degree of inspiration. Not a single weak number of dull passage. How many operas can you say that of? A genius operating at the height of his powers!


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

I just received the Jacobs Cosi, and the verdict is still out. I bought it used from Amazon with CD ROM. While I'm not sold on the singer's I can say for certain that the packaging is worth every penny. Five stars for sound quality as well, but as it stands, Mackerras 94 is still my deserve island pick- anyways, more from Brown's book, pg 132...

"Many commentators have described the serious arias in the second act (Nos. 24, 25, and 27) as essentially untouched by irony. Fiordiligi, more than any of the lovers, senses the gravity of entering into an illicit liaison, which makes all the more tragic her helplessness in avoiding it; Ferrando, through his music, reaches a higher level of passion than is evident in his sublimated first aria. By virtue of it's form- a full scale rondo in two tempos- Fiordiligi's 'Per pieta, ben mio, perdona' commands attention as the most important in the sequence of five arias in this act. Adriana Ferrarese would have accepted nothing less, given the roles she had taken in her career thus far. Knowing this, Da Ponte and Mozart used the features peculiar to this aria-type in order to plant clues as to her future actions.

Even if Fiordiligi is herself utterly sincere, Da Ponte gently mocks her predicament by ending her preceding recitativo accompangnato with a most Metastasian list of guilt-related affects; these Mozart undercuts with a uniform accomtpaniment of tremolo strings, illustrating the 'ardour' to which she had just confessed. The opening slow section of the aria exhibits the same extreme leaps between registers as in 'Come scoglio'. But these are applied more appropriately than in la Ferrarese's earlier aria: low notes for the 'shame' (verogna), and high for the 'horror' she feels on account of her attraction to the mysterious stranger. Da Ponte exploits the convention of bringing back text from the opening part of a rondo in the second, faster section, in that he has Fiordiligi sing of expunging all memory of her illicit passion ('perdera la rimembranza'); the return of these words demonstrates quite the opposite. The clarinet's thrice-repeated, rising 'remembrance' figure in the Adagio section is answered by a similar falling figure in gavotte rhythm at the beginning of the Allegro moderato theme. In both passages the broken declamation reflects Fiordiligi's abject state.

The triadic, horn-like melody of the opening section was modeled on music in rondo's Ferrarese had already sung on the stage of the Burgtheater, but here two real horns provide obbligato commentary. As Michael Noiray has noted, there was something of a tradition, at least in French opera, of using the horn to represent an absent lover- perhaps on account of associations of posthorns with distance. But Mozart brings the horn calls into ever greater prominence throughout this piece, leaving little doubt, by the end, of their significance as heralds of cuckolding. Strings alone accompany Fiordiligi at first, until bars 8-9, when the suddenly exposed horns (doubled by flutes), give lie to Fiordiligi's talk of keeping her new flame a secret. In the reprise of the first part Mozart allows the horns and woodwinds to echo the ends of Fiordiligi's phrases, fulfilling their musical potential. The horns come into their own during Fiordiligi's sustained notes in the Allegro moderato, and two previously-heard motifs contribute further referential material. In resetting the line 'perdera la rimembreza' Mozart strays into a paraphrase of the duet 'prendero quel brunettino', during which Fiordiligi had unwittingly chosen Ferrando as her suitor; at the start of the coda, a series of rising first-inversion chords decorated with appogiaturas recalls the central ritornello of Fiordiligi's first aria, thus invoking Guglielmo.

Despite a spectacular cadential flourish, in which the horns participate fully, it is music associated with Guglielmo that leaves the most lasting impression: Fiordiligi's carressing , rallentando cadence phrase in triplets emphasizing the words 'caro bene', and the thrice-repeated figure as she leaves the stage."


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Marschallin, Is there a recording of the whole of _Cosi fan tutte_ on EMI with Sena Jurinac? All I have stumbled upon is this:










I'm assuming you are speaking of the 1951 Glyndebourne production?










Out of print?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

You mean in terms of singing, of course! Elizabeth appears to have been less angelic in her behaviour under the Third Reich!

What artist comes off as angelic when painted with the stench of his or her patrons?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I think that Cosi gets overlooked a lot by opera fanatics. I hung out with a bunch of opera fanatics who weren't fans of it because they thought it was a cynical view on the battle of the sexes?!?

Honestly it's a very insightful psychological portrait of the female/male dynamic and shows us how much that we are sacrificing to each other.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

musivc said:


> I just received the Jacobs Cosi, and the verdict is still out. I bought it used from Amazon with CD ROM. While I'm not sold on the singer's I can say for certain that the packaging is worth every penny. Five stars for sound quality as well


Harmonia Mundi's presentation is magnificent! Apparently they used to be a book publishing company.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

albertfallickwang said:


> I think that Cosi gets overlooked a lot by opera fanatics. I hung out with a bunch of opera fanatics who weren't fans of it because they thought it was a cynical view on the battle of the sexes?!?
> 
> Honestly it's a very insightful psychological portrait of the female/male dynamic and shows us how much that we are sacrificing to each other.


Frankly I don't think Cosi shows us that at all. It is a pretty cynical Enlightenment piece written by an inveterate womaniser (da Ponte) and shows both women and men - and romantic love - in a particularly bad light. Don Alfonso sums up the thinking behind the piece in that women are not to be trusted in affairs of the heart. Of course, the irony is that (intentionally or not) the opera shows clearly that this applies to men too! It is indeed a bittersweet comedy in which no-one wins. You cannot expect that these couples live 'happily ever after' even if they marry each other! Infidelity and selfishness are the winners! 
I can understand anyone taking exception to this plot with its mysoginist overtones. Beethoven thought the libretto immoral. What redeems it is that it contains some of the most sublime music ever written. In fact, no other opera seems to work on such a consistently high degree of musical and lyrical inspiration. Apparently Wagner hated the music. That, dear Richard, is your loss!


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

Harmonia Mundi's release of Mozart's Last Concerto's with the Freiburger Barokorkestra hold top spot with K.622 and K. 595.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...tails?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1420995958&sr=1-1-spell

As with Cosi, I bought it used so I'm not sure about the packaging (it came from a library), but the performances are my all time favorite. Especially K.622- it is a period performance much better IMO than Hogwood's and better engineered as well. There are no clicks on the clarinet to be heard. K. 595 is just as good.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Definitely one for the Island. Hope there is a telly though!


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

Indeed- I wish that was released on CD already- that and Bohm's 1970 TV special version. It is on YouTube- too bad it is not on CD.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

It is no wonder that Haneke did such a good job producing this opera then.



DavidA said:


> Frankly I don't think Cosi shows us that at all. It is a pretty cynical Enlightenment piece written by an inveterate womaniser (da Ponte) and shows both women and men - and romantic love - in a particularly bad light. Don Alfonso sums up the thinking behind the piece in that women are not to be trusted in affairs of the heart. Of course, the irony is that (intentionally or not) the opera shows clearly that this applies to men too! It is indeed a bittersweet comedy in which no-one wins. You cannot expect that these couples live 'happily ever after' even if they marry each other! Infidelity and selfishness are the winners!
> I can understand anyone taking exception to this plot with its mysoginist overtones. Beethoven thought the libretto immoral. What redeems it is that it contains some of the most sublime music ever written. In fact, no other opera seems to work on such a consistently high degree of musical and lyrical inspiration. Apparently Wagner hated the music. That, dear Richard, is your loss!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Frankly I don't think Cosi shows us that at all. It is a pretty cynical Enlightenment piece written by an inveterate womaniser (da Ponte) and shows both women and men - and romantic love - in a particularly bad light. Don Alfonso sums up the thinking behind the piece in that women are not to be trusted in affairs of the heart. Of course, the irony is that (intentionally or not) the opera shows clearly that this applies to men too! It is indeed a bittersweet comedy in which no-one wins. You cannot expect that these couples live 'happily ever after' even if they marry each other! Infidelity and selfishness are the winners!
> I can understand anyone taking exception to this plot with its mysoginist overtones. Beethoven thought the libretto immoral. What redeems it is that it contains some of the most sublime music ever written. In fact, no other opera seems to work on such a consistently high degree of musical and lyrical inspiration. *Apparently Wagner hated the music.* That, dear Richard, is your loss!


Just a minor correction. Wagner didn't "hate" the music. He thought it was inferior to that of _Figaro_ and theorized that it was because the frivolity of the plot inhibited Mozart's inspiration. He was working out his theories of music and drama at the time, so his bias is understandable - and his is not a unique point of view, whether one agrees with it or not. I don't agree with him, though I'm not a fan of the plot either. On the other hand, neither do I agree that _Cosi_ is the most musically inspired and "sublime" of all operas, however much its great musical beauty may "redeem" its cynical libretto. I hear nothing inferior about the scores of _Don Giovanni_ or _Figaro_, or about _Otello_, _Falstaff_, _Tristan_, or _Parsifal_. On that level of musical genius, who can confidently compare? We have only our preferences, and we're fortunate to have all these works - as I'm sure you agree.


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I hear nothing inferior about the scores of _Don Giovanni_ or _Figaro_, or about _Otello_, _Falstaff_, _Tristan_, or _Parsifal_. On that level of musical genius, who can confidently compare? We have only our preferences, and we're fortunate to have all these works - as I'm sure you agree.


For this reason I felt compelled to start this thread. It didn't hit me right away but something about Cosi resonated with me last spring. It was as if I was struck by lighting. It occurred to me that Cosi is everything and nothing all at once. That is why I am going to continue quoting from a music scholar about the musical dramaturgy and composition of this work of art.

If I may elaborate- consider Beethoven's fifth, or Picasso's Guernica. Universally recognized as masterpieces of the highest order. Now, mention Cosi fan Tutte to someone and they may think you sneezed. However, with the way Mozart composed music to this libretto it is apparent to me that as a work of art it is woefully in need of further discussion, research, and appreciation. Parody, humor, truth. Ensemble writing, wind ensembles that might as well have been sent from heaven, symmetry and symbolism much more sublime than Zauberflotes masonic imagery... People don't like the plot, I get it. However in the words of the immortal Mike Love of The Beach Boys, "One thing that everyone understands is boy\girl." There is an undercurrent of emotion that is able for anyone to relate to each character due to Mozart's incredible inspiration.

It may not have the fan base as say Tristan, or Giovanni, nor do I know for certain that any other opera doesn't have the same level of layering and duality. However, in this silly libretto there is a chance to both hear and take life lightly and seriously at the same time- It is a culmination of Mozart's years of composing into a symmetrically pristine opera; full of refreshing sounds which convey almost all aspects of love.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DavidA said:


> View attachment 60832
> 
> 
> Definitely one for the Island. Hope there is a telly though!


Just watching this again. Recommend it to all opera lovers. Beautiful singing, attractive singers easy on the eye, superb production and conducting that brings out both the spunk and beauty of Mozart's score. Unmissable!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

If I may elaborate- consider Beethoven's fifth, or Picasso's Guernica. Universally recognized as masterpieces of the highest order.

Perhaps... but is it not possible that many have confused an admiration for the high moral/ethical content they imagine exists in such work with an admiration for the art? It seems that our educational system itself promotes the Romantic idea that the value of Art lies within the moral/ethical lessons it conveys.

...in this silly libretto there is a chance to both hear and take life lightly and seriously at the same time- It is a culmination of Mozart's years of composing into a symmetrically pristine opera; full of refreshing sounds which convey almost all aspects of love.

Isn't that the magic of art... the manner in which the artist can transform the most mundane of subject matter into something sublime? Cezanne seemingly transforms a bunch of stupid apples into something sublime. Mozart does the same with a libretto that on its own might be read a problematic.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

musivc said:


> For this reason I felt compelled to start this thread. It didn't hit me right away but something about Cosi resonated with me last spring. It was as if I was struck by lighting. It occurred to me that Cosi is everything and nothing all at once. That is why I am going to continue quoting from a music scholar about the musical dramaturgy and composition of this work of art.
> 
> If I may elaborate- consider Beethoven's fifth, or Picasso's Guernica. Universally recognized as masterpieces of the highest order. Now, mention Cosi fan Tutte to someone and they may think you sneezed. However, with the way Mozart composed music to this libretto it is apparent to me that as a work of art it is woefully in need of further discussion, research, and appreciation. Parody, humor, truth. Ensemble writing, wind ensembles that might as well have been sent from heaven, symmetry and symbolism much more sublime than Zauberflotes masonic imagery... People don't like the plot, I get it. However in the words of the immortal Mike Love of The Beach Boys, "One thing that everyone understands is boy\girl." There is an undercurrent of emotion that is able for anyone to relate to each character due to Mozart's incredible inspiration.
> 
> It may not have the fan base as say Tristan, or Giovanni, nor do I know for certain that any other opera doesn't have the same level of layering and duality. However, in this silly libretto there is a chance to both hear and take life lightly and seriously at the same time- It is a culmination of Mozart's years of composing into a symmetrically pristine opera; full of refreshing sounds which convey almost all aspects of love.


You speak lovingly and eloquently. If anyone could convince me to like this silly opera full of gorgeous music more than I actually do (or am likely to), it's you! Sincere thanks.


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

Thank you, sincerely, for the kind words- it's my pleasure.


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> If I may elaborate- consider Beethoven's fifth, or Picasso's Guernica. Universally recognized as masterpieces of the highest order.
> 
> Perhaps... but is it not possible that many have confused an admiration for the high moral/ethical content they imagine exists in such work with an admiration for the art? It seems that our educational system itself promotes the Romantic idea that the value of Art lies within the moral/ethical lessons it conveys.
> 
> ...


Goodness St.LukesguildOhio, I didn't see your post! I am in total agreement with both points you make. They are well articulated too considering the difficulty of quantifying the subject matter.

Concerning the educational system, I think the problem has less to do with failing schools and more to do with a culture that by and large doesn't value art..._(and the word "art" in and of itself is a dangerous concept- to label it is to box it in, to treat anything as art is to render it meaningless.)_ Therefore when I say that our culture doesn't value art I have classical music and visual art in mind. It seems people aren't willing or able to challenge themselves with deep thoughts about the eternal intangible truths of art and settle for easy entertainment or a basic knowledge of what schools have taught as "art"- Beethoven's fifth and Guernica (as two simple examples among many). They can sit through three hours of football and approximately three seconds of opera.

Please keep in mind anyone who reads this that this a just a perspective of a 34 yr old dude from a small town in NY. I assure you that I spend many hours thinking of this stuff. I've nothing in common with my peers when it comes to awe, respect, and downright enjoyment of orchestral music, not to mention opera! Why, that probably has earned many of us opera lovers an insult or two behind our backs.

I don't want to derail the thread but this is totally relevant to the subject at hand. Cosi is so rich in artistic merit that it boggles my mind how little attention this gets. I'm not referring to the world of music lovers only but in general. Mozart and Da Ponte not only made this a reality but inside the lines Mozart is in a way teaching us how to compose music. I really want to dig deeper into Mozart's compositional process and decision making...and Da Ponte's choice of words (there are lots of double entendres!) I think I will bring up 'Fra gli amplessi' with its many musical tools Mozart used to construct to music the moment Fiordiligi breaks down...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

musivc said:


> Therefore when I say that our culture doesn't value art I have classical music and visual art in mind. It seems people aren't willing or able to challenge themselves with deep thoughts about the eternal intangible truths of art and settle for easy entertainment or a basic knowledge of what schools have taught as "art"- Beethoven's fifth and Guernica (as two simple examples among many). They can sit through three hours of football and approximately three seconds of opera.
> ...


Whew must realise that opera has always been mainly for the richer classes. Originally was a background entertainment while the fashionable sat in their boxes and discussed whatever. So let's not be too hard on modern society that it is a minority sport.


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

I'm in agreement with you David, but I hope to expound on that point. BTW, which version of Cosi have you been listening too?

Anyways, I should mention that my perspective is not one of an opera goer, but an avid listener in my living room. I suppose what I meant is that the general public is more than satisfied with simple rhythmic music than well composed orchestral art- I used opera, but I meant orchestral. I find it fascinating that orchestral music is not elevated to the same everyday esteem as other music. All this music is available at the click of a button for anyone, but I guess it is forever just for a niche group. Curious, isn't it? I'm new here, but I think there is metrialnfor an new topic here.

Now, 'Fra gli amplessi'!....


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

Back to Bruce Alan Brown's book, pg. 50-51...

"Ferrando's difficult seduction of Fiordiligi, resumed in this duet, is in marked contrast to Guglielmo's easy conquest of her sister. But at first we are not even aware that this is another seduction duet, for Mozart has led one to expect an aria. Fiordiligi begins after an orchestral flourish (similar to that in Ferrando's first-act aria and in the same key), singing of her plan to join Guglielmo, and anticipating his joy at seeing her. Just as she reaches the dominant, Ferrando bursts upon the scene, diverting the music to the minor in the process, with complaints that her refusals are condemning him to death. (His words are almost identical to those that the sisters had jokingly predicted in No. 20.) Many more tonal and formal surprises follow. Fiordiligi, _stunned into recitative_, steers the key into C major, and a nearly literal quotation from Ferrando's 'Una Bella serenata' in No. 3- which she had not heard. He continues the familiar melody, once again asking her to plunge a sword into his breast. A series of short exchanges ensues, after which, singing together, Ferrando notes and Fiordiligi acknowledges her incipient vacillation. The biondino pleads even more insistently, as Fiordiligi retreats in confusion to a half-cadence in the minor tonic.

At this point Ferrando tries a different strategy, slowing to a triple- meter Larghetto in the tonic. His lyric quatrain, in which he beseeches Fiordiligi to turn her eyes toward him, is not without humour, however: a lascivious offer to be a 'spouse, lover, and more, if you desire'. Fiordiligi is helpless to resist, and, pushed over the edge by a soaring oboe phrase (recalling others in the introduction of the overture, and at the end of Ferrando's No. 17), she tells the stranger to do with her as he wishes. Guglielmo has been a witness to these events, and Alfonso must restrain him from interfering. Some earlier editions recommend cuts in the lengthy endearments for the lovers in the following, final section, but Mozart's music here is best performed unabridged, in order to balance all the prior instability in this most unorthodox of duets"


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

Brown pgs 144-146...

"By contrast, Fiordiligi and Ferrando's duet is much more fraught with tensions and ironies, and the structure which articulates them is more complicated. There are hardly any returns of material; rather, the character as reach outside of the piece to prior music. Singing a duet is the furthest thing from Fiordiligi's mind as she begins what the spectators, too, assume to be an aria, and once Ferrando surprises her, she does her utmost to repel him, with repeated imperatives ('den partite!, 'Taci...ahime', 'Sorgi'). Her inability to control the situation is evident in the duet's construction as a series of interrupted and uncompleted periods. Ferrando completes Fiordiligi's modulation to the dominant, but changes the mode to minor; later, after she has landed with an anguished cry on the dominant of A minor (bars 74-75), he switches mode, meter and tempo. Though the original tonic returns at the start of Ferrando's Larghetto, its preparation has not been sufficient to lend this moment the feeling of a resolution. After sixteen bars Fiordiligi jumps in with another exclamation, prompting Ferrando to persevere. As she helplessly echoes his phrases, Ferrando, assisted by the oboe, then guides the melody to the upper tonic and a cadence which seals his victory. The cadence at the start of the final Andante section is marked by the return of a motif that had originally illustrated the embraces Fiordiligi had hoped to share with Guglielmo; here, as Guglielmo watches in agony from the wings, it signifies the embraces of Fiordiligi and Ferrando. "


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

musivc said:


> I'm in agreement with you David, but I hope to expound on that point. BTW, which version of Cosi have you been listening too?
> 
> .


I have the version on CD by Bohm (EMI), Karajan and Jacobs.

And the DVD of Glyndebourne 2006


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> musivc: Concerning the educational system, I think the problem has less to do with failing schools and more to do with a culture that by and large doesn't value art...(and the word "art" in and of itself is a dangerous concept- to label it is to box it in, to treat anything as art is to render it meaningless.) Therefore when I say that our culture doesn't value art I have classical music and visual art in mind. It seems people aren't willing or able to challenge themselves with deep thoughts about the eternal intangible truths of art and settle for easy entertainment or a basic knowledge of what schools have taught as "art"- Beethoven's fifth and Guernica (as two simple examples among many). They can sit through three hours of football and approximately three seconds of opera.


I couldn't agree more: so many people live vicarious,_ second-hand _lives by and_ through _others: People don't _play_ sports or _go_ to the gym and have punishing workouts-- they watch sports; and talk about them-- infinitely and endlessly; being the male soap operas they are.

Now, I don't have anything against soap operas, quite the contrary. I just think that people should_ be _their own soap operas instead.

Maximum fun, full volume, twenty-four seven.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> If I may elaborate- consider Beethoven's fifth, or Picasso's Guernica. Universally recognized as masterpieces of the highest order.
> 
> Perhaps... but is it not possible that many have confused an admiration for the high moral/ethical content they imagine exists in such work with an admiration for the art? It seems that our educational system itself promotes the Romantic idea that the value of Art lies within the moral/ethical lessons it conveys.
> 
> ...


And, _mutatis mutandis _for the literary arts: A superb artist like Carlyle can make the most mundane subjects fascinating by way of his charm, wit, and literary stylization.

See for instance, the quote of his at the bottom of every posting I make at TC.

_;D ;D_


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Currently listening to this old Met production/recording of Cosi sung in English. Not my personal favorite... but still it is quite good... and quite fun.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

musivc: Concerning the educational system, I think the problem has less to do with failing schools and more to do with a culture that by and large doesn't value art...

True... the schools only stress what is valued by the larger culture. Our politicians are currently seeking to dismantle the requirements that all grade school students be at least exposed to a minimum of art, music, literature, theater, etc... They are doing this by eliminating these requirements and allowing school districts facing budgetary challenges (and when aren't schools facing such?) to make decisions as to what "non-essential" courses to eliminate. How many of us imagine that schools will choose to eliminate Physical Education and Sports over Art, Music, and Theater? We are already seeing an elimination of the Arts even within the the study of reading and writing. Many districts have seen the complete elimination of poetry, and a huge cut-back upon all forms of fiction, dictating at least 75% (or more) non-fiction, essay, etc...

Therefore when I say that our culture doesn't value art I have classical music and visual art in mind.

Our culture still places the highest value upon pop music, graphic design, advertising, television, film, photography, computer graphics, video games, fashion design, etc... but at the same time our culture fails to recognize that the individuals who are eventually employed in these industries must start somewhere. We don't teach art with the expectation that a large number of students are going to become painters or sculptors. We don't teach literature expecting a great surge in the number of poets. We don't teach music expecting a great increase in classical musicians and composers. But as our Marschallin pointed out, neither do we teach PE or fund school sports in the belief that we will create a nation of great athletes.

I teach in the Public Schools at the grade school level... but if I had any school age children, I would seriously entertain the idea of home schooling them for the simple reason that I despise much of what is occurring in our schools today... especially the emphasis in churning out fodder for the corporations.

It seems people aren't willing or able to challenge themselves with deep thoughts about the eternal intangible truths of art and settle for easy entertainment or a basic knowledge of what schools have taught as "art"- Beethoven's fifth and Guernica (as two simple examples among many).

I suspect that a majority of the populace lack the ability and/or the desire/passion for delving deeply into ART... whether we are speaking of "fine art", classical music, and poetry... or even jazz, blues, pop-music, and comic books. For how many people... after their teenage obsessions... is art, music, reading, film anything more than an occasional entertainment or background noise?

They can sit through three hours of football and approximately three seconds of opera. I couldn't agree more: so many people live vicarious, second-hand lives by and through others: People don't play sports or go to the gym and have punishing workouts-- they watch sports; and talk about them-- infinitely and endlessly; being the male soap operas they are.

Indeed!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> StlukesguildOhio: But as our Marschallin pointed out, neither do we teach PE or fund school sports in the belief that we will create a nation of great athletes.


Did I? . . . Or should I be asking: "I drank _what_?"


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

_StlukesguildOhio: But as our Marschallin pointed out, neither do we teach PE or fund school sports in the belief that we will create a nation of great athletes._

Did I? . . . Or should I be asking: "I drank what?"

Well... extrapolating from this quote:

I couldn't agree more: so many people live vicarious, second-hand lives by and through others: People don't play sports or go to the gym and have punishing workouts-- they watch sports; and talk about them-- infinitely and endlessly; being the male soap operas they are.

I presumed that you were inferring to the fact that in spite of the fact that a great majority would never think to cut the budgets for Physical Education and Sports (at the Grade School and/or College/University level) it doesn't seem that these have any more "practical" value to society as a whole than do education in the Arts.

By the way... I was floored to discover that a great majority of colleges and universities charge all students hefty fees in support of the athletic and sports department... even if they have absolutely no interest in sports whatsoever. The school from which I earned my teaching degree some years back now adds more than $750 a year for such. Other schools charge over $1000. This strikes me as absolutely robbery considering the increasing cost of a college degree and endless student loan debt.


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Currently listening to this old Met production/recording of Cosi sung in English. Not my personal favorite... but still it is quite good... and quite fun.


Interesting- I'm going to look at the amazon reviews of this version. I know Mackerras has recorded an english version before he died. I love that album artwork though!

Has anyone else noticed how awesome the album artwork to classical recordings are over the last century? When owning classical vinyl it's like owning a work art!


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I have the version on CD by Bohm (EMI), Karajan and Jacobs.
> 
> And the DVD of Glyndebourne 2006


I bought the Jacob's version and I love the clarity of the pronunciation in the words. It has such a clean awesome sound to it. The forte-piano bothers me not. Some quick highlights for me- 'Fate presto Cari amici' is so tight and driving... Does anyone else find the music and libretto in parts like these funny? I feel like these selections reveal the sense of humor Mozart had.

On the Jacobs version, when the glass breaks after 'Soave sia I'll vento' during the recitative of 'Che vita maledetta', it sounds like someone is in the room right next to me!

I also like 'Ah guarda'. I bought the score from amazon and I noticed that there is great difficulty with singers to sing "ritrovar" over measures 28-30, and "scocar" over measures 47-49. Either the Fiordiligi part gets it right and Dorabella doesn't or vice versa... Or if they both get it right someone takes a breath at some point while the other doesn't. Here Gens hits it well.

On Bohm, Schwarzkopf gets it, Ludwig takes a breath... On Davis, Caballe hits it effortlessly while Baker doesn't. On my favorite version Lott misses it, (much to my dismay!), but McLaughlin sings it beautifully. These things matter- Even without the words, 'Ah guarda' speaks to my heart in such a comforting way. I often wonder if I didn't go through the events I did if this music would speak to me in the same way- perhaps not. I prefer period practice with most, but not all Mozart.This Jacobs version is standing side by side with my Mackerras- I certainly like it better than Gardiners, which was the very first version I heard. Oh, Janowitz hits it on Bohm's 1970 version for tv, but not on his 1972 version with her.

On that note, I can't recommend these enough:

http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Great-...21419978&sr=1-4&keywords=mackerras+mozart+box

http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Operas...1421420045&sr=1-2&keywords=Gardiner+opera+box

Both can bought for dirt cheap relative to individual versions- Gardiner's Zauberflöte and Idomeneo are worth the purchase, as well as Mackerras's Cosi and Zauberflöte. Not to mention the Mackerras box goes for less than $21!!! It is worth every penny just to hear the sound quality on his Cosi- especially the timpani parts and the chorus parts which in my opinion are the best by a landslide. 'Benedetti i doppi conugi' is like...well let me think about this... Being in the company of friendly exciting urgency and longing, divine company and ideal occasions of funny anticipating love... No stodginess here.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Having bought listened again to Cosi in the Karajan version I am convinced it is the greatest opera ever written. The only problem is when I put on Figaro, the Don or the Flute I think the same about them! Perhaps better to say they are up there with the sublimest utterances ever made by a composer!


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Having bought listened again to Cosi in the Karajan version I am convinced it is the greatest opera ever written. The only problem is when I put on Figaro, the Don or the Flute I think the same about them! Perhaps better to say they are up there with the sublimest utterances ever made by a composer!


Rene Jacobs once was asked in an interview what his favourite Mozart opera was when he replied "the last one I conducted". Not 100% it was Jacobs... but I like the answer.


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## musivc (Dec 27, 2014)

I found this comment on a website and thought it was insightful-

I really hate the second Bohm recording. Schwarzkopf is very artificial, Ludwig joyless, Kraus and Taddei never did these roles on stage to my knowledge (Taddei is more Don Alfonso to my thinking) and are vocally good but dramatically detached. Lisa Otto is a Viennese operetta soubrette and Berry is good but also not really on fire. Bohm kind of lays a heavy hand on it. I just really think that recording is way overrated.

“Cosi” is a very difficult opera to nail -- very elusive in a lot of ways. I can see how one can become obsessed with it.


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## Karel81 (Feb 29, 2016)

I'm new in this thread and my english is not do good so sorry for that.
I will ask : why do you recommend the Mackerras version 94 ?
I will buy cosi on cd but don't know which recording.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

musivc said:


> I found this comment on a website and thought it was insightful-
> 
> I really hate the second Bohm recording. Schwarzkopf is very artificial, Ludwig joyless, Kraus and Taddei never did these roles on stage to my knowledge (Taddei is more Don Alfonso to my thinking) and are vocally good but dramatically detached. Lisa Otto is a Viennese operetta soubrette and Berry is good but also not really on fire. Bohm kind of lays a heavy hand on it. I just really think that recording is way overrated.
> 
> "Cosi" is a very difficult opera to nail -- very elusive in a lot of ways. I can see how one can become obsessed with it.


What's _insightful_ about it? I disagree with every word. Maybe he hasn't actually heard it, because Lisa Otto isn't in it. Hanny Steffek is the delightful Despina. How he can find Taddei, as characterful a Guglielmo as you will ever hear, and Kraus, a marvellously ardent Ferrando dramatically detached is beyond me. Taddei, was an excellent Mozartian, and makes a great Figaro and Leporello in the Giulini recordings. As for Schwarzkopf and Ludwig, they performed their roles together many times all over the world to great acclaim, and Bohm's conducting is far from heavy handed. If there is a more erotic version of _Fra gli'amplessi_ I have yet to hear it.

I wonder which performance this particular reviewer likes.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> What's _insightful_ about it? I disagree with every word. Maybe he hasn't actually heard it, because Lisa Otto isn't in it. Hanny Steffek is the delightful Despina. How he can find Taddei, as characterful a Guglielmo as you will ever hear, and Kraus, a marvellously ardent Ferrando. As for Schwarzkopf and Ludwig, they performed their roles together many times all over the world to great acclaim, and Bohm's conducting is far from heavy handed. If there is a more erotic version of _Fra gli'amplessi_ I have yet to hear it.
> 
> I wonder which performance this particular reviewer likes.


Cosi is such a particular piece I think people react to it on a very personal level and so I would expect there to be a wide range of opinions about favourite recordings. That said, I think the Bohm is perfection itself. Another famous recording that I couldn't stand though is the Von Karajan - it sounds like everybody is whispering on it (but apparently that is why it is so good, I'm told!)

Another wonderful recording is the one by Rene Jacobs which is very different from the Bohm (lighter and more italianate rather than germanic), but I find it equally sublime.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Cosi is such a particular piece I think people react to it on a very personal level and so I would expect there to be a wide range of opinions about favourite recordings. That said, I think the Bohm is perfection itself. Another famous recording that I couldn't stand though is the Von Karajan - it *sounds like everybody is whispering on it *(but apparently that is why it is so good, I'm told!)
> 
> Another wonderful recording is the one by Rene Jacobs which is very different from the Bohm (lighter and more italianate rather than germanic), but I find it equally sublime.
> 
> N.


Funny but they're not whispering on my copy. Did you have your volume control properly adjusted?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Even better than whispering would be absolute silence rather than this misogynistic mince masquerading as high art.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Even better than whispering would be absolute silence rather than this misogynistic mince masquerading as high art.


Lols. Okay. :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Even better than whispering would be absolute silence rather than this misogynistic mince masquerading as high art.


"Misogynistic mince masquerading" - Love it! A brother in rhetoric!

Now admit it: Mozart's mince is musically more than moderately marvelous. Of course it's a silly opera, but maybe as much misandrist or misanthropic as misogynist. Or too dumb to be any of the above.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Of course it's a silly opera, but maybe as much misandrist or misanthropic as misogynist. Or too dumb to be any of the above.


Lols. Okay. :lol:


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

The first act trio _Soave sia il vento_ from Glyndebourne is particularly fine:






I query whether those who would call this "masquerading as high art" or "too dumb" aren't telling us more about themselves than Mozart's opera.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

I really like Cosi. It also has a completely ridiculous premise. But somehow that premise ends up being really genuinely funny. Is it misogynist? I'd say yeah, it's a product of its time and culture. But I don't really care about sexist or racist things used for comedic purposes, and it seems like the premise was all to just have a lot of good laughs. I really don't think Mozart and Da Ponte were trying to subjugate and shame women for being nothing but slaves to the hottest dude that shows interest in them. I think it was all for the laughs. Just my take.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> I query whether those who would call this "masquerading as high art" or "too dumb" aren't telling us more about themselves than Mozart's opera.


Well what do you suppose your query might reveal about them? :lol:

Speaking for myself, I'm just poking a little fun at a very silly opera plot that for reasons known only to Mozart is set to music of a far higher quality than its possibly misogynist, possibly misandrist, possibly misanthropic, but probably just dumb story warrants. Some may find the final product amusing; others may not. Some may think it adds up to a satisfying work of art; others may not. Most will agree that there's some of Mozart's loveliest music in it.

That's all.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Well what do you suppose your query might reveal about them? :lol:


That is for each gentle reader to determine for him- or herself. :tiphat:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> The first act trio _Soave sia il vento_ from Glyndebourne is particularly fine:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In my humble opinion: the whole DVD is a must have :tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> That is for each gentle reader to determine for him- or herself. :tiphat:


You realize, of course, that not all readers are gentle. It may be best not to tempt them.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Well what do you suppose your query might reveal about them? :lol:
> 
> Speaking for myself, I'm just poking a little fun at a very silly opera plot that for reasons known only to Mozart is set to music of a far higher quality than its possibly misogynist, possibly misandrist, possibly misanthropic, but probably just dumb story warrants. Some may find the final product amusing; others may not. Some may think it adds up to a satisfying work of art; others may not. Most will agree that there's some of Mozart's loveliest music in it.
> 
> That's all.


Come on! The plot is no more silly than twins eloping together or a man marrying his aunt! Or a Knight floating in on a boat drawn by swans! Do we believe in cursed Dutchmen roaming the sea? Or a prince falling madly in love with a psychopathic princess at first glance and risking his life to answer her riddle? Or consumptive heroines singng passionate arias before they die? Such things are not the stuff of real life, something we know and accept when we go to opera. It is an unreal art form as people sing rather than speak. The plot of Cosi is incredible but as I have to suspend disbelief whenever I go to opera I am quite willing to do it for perhaps the sublimest utterance ever written for the operatic stage. 
Incidentally, once you get past the obvious point of disbelief of the men's disguise, the libretto of Cosi is one of the best ever written.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Dedalus said:


> I really like Cosi. It also has a completely ridiculous premise. But somehow that premise ends up being really genuinely funny. Is it misogynist? I'd say yeah, it's a product of its time and culture. But I don't really care about sexist or racist things used for comedic purposes, and it seems like the premise was all to just have a lot of good laughs. I really don't think Mozart and Da Ponte were trying to subjugate and shame women for being nothing but slaves to the hottest dude that shows interest in them. I think it was all for the laughs. Just my take.


I personally find the opera only outwardly funny, the same way I only find it misogynistic at first glance. After all, just as with many of Mozart's other operas, the character helping to drive much of the plot forward is a woman, Despina, who even laments the double standard that men are required to be faithful only within a certain distance of their fiances. In the end, both the men and women end up looking bad. The men, ending up just victimized by Alphonso's experiment, and finding out they were hardly more in control of whom they fell in love with than the women were, and Alphonso as a 'philosopher' who in the end comes across as an ignorant and embittered old man who was once unlucky in love. The opera's title, since it comes from Alphonso's words, comes off as ironic(to me) rather than misogynist since it is equally critical, if not more so, of the male characters in the opera.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Well what do you suppose your query might reveal about them? :lol:
> 
> Speaking for myself, I'm just poking a little fun at a very silly opera plot that for reasons known only to Mozart is set to music of a far higher quality than its possibly misogynist, possibly misandrist, possibly misanthropic, but probably just dumb story warrants. Some may find the final product amusing; others may not. Some may think it adds up to a satisfying work of art; others may not. Most will agree that there's some of Mozart's loveliest music in it.
> 
> That's all.


I agree about that. Given that Mozart's operas are not my favourite style of opera I have about four or five versions of each of the big four and at least one version of everything else so no one can say I haven't given him a fair crack of the whip. As for the rest of his output, I love it. I was actually just trying out the hijacking of a thread in the manner of certain other forum members. :lol:


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Pugg said:


> In my humble opinion: the whole DVD is a must have :tiphat:


Indeed!

As I remarked on the first page of this thread over one year ago(!), my top choices for _Così_ are the Glyndebourne DVD and the René Jacobs CD.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I can assure you I am not preoccupied with anything you do! Why on earth should I be? :lol:
> The problem is that it was your good self that brought in the word 'silly' in the first place. I only said, 'it is no more silly than........'
> 
> Now do you understand?


Look. Many think that _Cosi fan tutte_ has a dumb plot, most people think that it has great music, and some people find that incongruous. It's a very time-honored perspective and it isn't going away. Why can't you just accept that and not be telling other members what they're "in the habit" of doing? No one here is contesting the genius of your beloved Mozart. That should make you happy.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Religion is not the topic of this thread. Cosi fan Tutte is. Some posts have been deleted.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Look. Many think that _Cosi fan tutte_ has a dumb plot, most people think that it has great music, and some people find that incongruous. It's a very time-honored perspective and it isn't going away. Why can't you just accept that and not be telling other members what they're "in the habit" of doing? No one here is contesting the genius of your beloved Mozart. That should make you happy.


I can't see what I am 'in the habit' of doing - whether it is what you perceive or not - has anything to do with the topic under discussion. Of course the plot of Cosi is far fetched - I don't know anyone who doesn't think so. But because it's far fetched (but not particularly so when compared with other operatic plots) doesn't make it 'dumb'. In fact it was written by a genius, da Ponte, and is actually a brilliant libretto - it has been described as a 'perfect' libretto. I suggest you read "The man who wrote Mozart" which gives you a background to da Ponte's life and thought. It's a great read. Of course Mozart's music is the work of sheer genius - anyone who didn't think so would be dumb imo. But I also believe da Ponte's libretto is the work of genius too. That's what makes the opera so great - iron sharpening iron.
"Ironically, this libretto that critics have found so puzzling, so unsatisfactory, so artificial, is one of the best. Why was it so difficult to understand? For one thing, the psychological climate of the times has indeed changed. The 19th century liked to put women and Mozart both on a pedestal. He was the disembodied angel. They were -- well, pretty much what Mozart wanted to point out that they were not. In the opera, the two young couples receive an education about love and come to maturity in twenty-four hours. It took the world considerably longer.
"Aside from unwillingness to face up to the truths that the opera discloses, the 19th century seems to have been hung up on certain conventions of realism -- again, conventions that this opera deliberately defies. Critics have been divided between those that called it wicked and those that called it silly, failing to recognize that it tells about as serious a story as can be told, as lovers who have grown apart when separated can ruefully testify. But in true Mozartean style, the story is translated into comic terms, a transparently theatrical fable, featuring two symmetrical pairs of lovers, with a wise but disenchanted older man master-minding the men, and a down-to-earth, no-nonsense maid servant stage-managing the ladies."
Pocket Opera
http://www.pocketopera.org/2016/libt/MOZART-CosiFanTutte.pdf


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Come on! The plot is no more silly than twins eloping together or a man marrying his aunt! Or a Knight floating in on a boat drawn by swans! Do we believe in cursed Dutchmen roaming the sea? Or a prince falling madly in love with a psychopathic princess at first glance and risking his life to answer her riddle? Or consumptive heroines singng passionate arias before they die? Such things are not the stuff of real life, something we know and accept when we go to opera. It is an unreal art form as people sing rather than speak. The plot of Cosi is incredible but as I have to suspend disbelief whenever I go to opera I am quite willing to do it for perhaps the sublimest utterance ever written for the operatic stage.
> Incidentally, once you get past the obvious point of disbelief of the men's disguise, the libretto of Cosi is one of the best ever written.


Hear, hear! Whilst some of the mechanics of this farce may be far-fetched Da Ponte's libretto is strikingly refreshing over two hundred years after it was written and it is no wonder that it is still studied in Italian colleges along with Dante and Manzoni.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> In the opera, the two young couples receive an education about love and come to maturity in twenty-four hours. It took the world considerably longer.
> "Aside from unwillingness to face up to the truths that the opera discloses, the 19th century seems to have been hung up on certain conventions of realism -- again, conventions that this opera deliberately defies. Critics have been divided between those that called it wicked and those that called it silly, failing to recognize that it tells about as serious a story as can be told, as lovers who have grown apart when separated can ruefully testify. But in true Mozartean style, the story is translated into comic terms, a transparently theatrical fable, featuring two symmetrical pairs of lovers, with a wise but disenchanted older man master-minding the men, and a down-to-earth, no-nonsense maid servant stage-managing the ladies."
> Pocket Opera
> http://www.pocketopera.org/2016/libt/MOZART-CosiFanTutte.pdf


A twenty-four hour "education" about "love"? A coming to "maturity"? A theatrical "fable"? Don Alfonso "wise"? Despina "down-to-earth" and "no-nonsense"?

Try this: a cynical plot by a disillusioned, misogynistic old bachelor who manipulates the feelings and lives of young people for the amusement of seeing his view of women proven true (or to convert the boys to his gospel of feminine capriciousness), assisted by a disgruntled housekeeper who was probably back of the barn a hundred times in her youth and did - and will still do - anything for money.

It's great farce material, and we might find it amusing if we can swallow the moral:

"Everyone blames women, but I forgive them
If they change their love
A thousand times a day;
Some call it a sin, others a habit,
But I say it's a necessity of their heart.
The lover who finds that he's been deceived
Should blame not others
But his own mistake;
Whether they're young or old, fair or plain -
Repeat with me: Women are all the same!"

It's hard to agree that this is not really the moral and that the boys are supposed to look as bad as the girls, since at the end, Don Alfonso says to Dorabella and Fiordiligi:

"I deceived you, but my deception
Undeceived your lovers,
Who henceforth will be wiser
And will do as I wish."

Whatever this means - it sounds as if Alfonso stands vindicated and gloating - no one makes any objection to it. The reconciliation is almost instantaneous - too quick to suggest any profound "lessons" learned or "maturity" gained - and finally all join in a typically innocuous Enlightenment homily:

"Happy is the man who looks
At everything on the right side
And through trials and tribulations
Makes reason his guide.

What always makes another weep
Will be for him a cause of mirth
And amid the tempests of this world
He will find sweet peace."

That people such as the above writer take the plot of _Cosi_ as anything but farce can only be attributed to Mozart's music, which is far better than the story deserves, and to da Ponte's wit and literary skill too, though I have to say the libretto has to spin out an awful lot of flowery rhetoric to make the characters amazingly rapid changes of heart seem even semi-plausible. Some plausibility is necessary even in comedy if we are to empathize with the characters - unless the implausibility is papered over with seductive music.

It's ironic to see a story advance a "moral" like this in an age when women were stay-at-home dependents and it was men who had the opportunity to "play the field." _Le Nozze di Figaro_ would seem closer to reality; it shows us the grown up Rosina having to cope with the faithlessness of the once-charming Almaviva. The genre of comedy - and the mores of the time - required the Countess to "forgive" the Count, even though we know that she knows full well that his very brief plea for mercy, so automatic for him when he's caught in the act, will not mean anything in the long run. But what else could she do? In that era, _cosi fan tutte_!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> That people such as the above writer take the plot of _Cosi_ as anything but farce can only be attributed to Mozart's music, which is far better than the story deserves, and to da Ponte's wit and literary skill too, though I have to say the libretto has to spin out an awful lot of flowery rhetoric to make the characters amazingly rapid changes of heart seem even semi-plausible. Some plausibility is necessary even in comedy if we are to empathize with the characters - unless the implausibility is papered over with seductive music.
> 
> It's ironic to see a story advance a "moral" like this in an age when women were stay-at-home dependents and it was men who had the opportunity to "play the field." _Le Nozze di Figaro_ would seem closer to reality; it shows us the grown up Rosina having to cope with the faithlessness of the once-charming Almaviva. The genre of comedy - and the mores of the time - required the Countess to "forgive" the Count, even though we know that she knows full well that his very brief plea for mercy, so automatic for him when he's caught in the act, will not mean anything in the long run. But what else could she do? In that era, _cosi fan tutte_!


Ofg course it's due to Mozart's music. Ironically this is the same argument I used as to why people take Wagner's - or other operatic plots - so seriously - the lure of the music on the ear and the senses. Fortunately I do not live in the world of opera - for me it's entertainment - so I don't have to worry about taking it seriously. It is mere fiction! 
Yes, da Ponte's libretto 'has to spin out an awful lot of flowery rhetoric to make the characters amazingly rapid changes of heart seem even semi-plausible' - but this is the incredible skill of the librettist and the matchless music of the composer. Mind you, the same could be said of many operas. I think of Otello - within a few hours he's gone from singing a love duet to murdering his wife! I find Shakespeare's play one of his weakest for this reason. But the opera - with the help of Verdi's incredible score - gets me far more convinced.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Ofg course it's due to Mozart's music. Ironically this is the same argument I used as to why people take Wagner's - or other operatic plots - so seriously - the lure of the music on the ear and the senses. Fortunately I do not live in the world of opera - for me it's entertainment - so I don't have to worry about taking it seriously. It is mere fiction!
> Yes, da Ponte's libretto 'has to spin out an awful lot of flowery rhetoric to make the characters amazingly rapid changes of heart seem even semi-plausible' - but this is the incredible skill of the librettist and the matchless music of the composer. Mind you, the same could be said of many operas. I think of Otello - within a few hours he's gone from singing a love duet to murdering his wife! I find Shakespeare's play one of his weakest for this reason. But the opera - with the help of Verdi's incredible score - gets me far more convinced.


I have to agree that in opera there's plenty of implausibility to go around. I have problems with _Otello_ too, purely as a story, even if it isn't completely unbelievable. But I think we have to look at "implausibility" in the context of genre. We don't expect myths or farces to conform to the laws of everyday reality in the way we'd expect, say, a historical work to do; the one being symbolic in nature and the other absurd, their power lies precisely in their lack of realism. A story or libretto doesn't have to be convincing as "straight theater," either, to be suitable for opera; Da Ponte's librettos would work better as straight plays than most, but that doesn't necessarily make them better as librettos, or the operas based on them better operas.

My pointing out that _Cosi_ is an implausible story and that it's the music and libretto that "sell" it to us is not a criticism of that story as such; it's in the nature of farce that it should be unrealistic. I merely remark upon what I consider an intriguing incongruity: an absurd plot with an explicitly misogynist theme, which, based purely on its cynical premise and lack of any transcendent resolution, we would expect to find treated as a silly bit of fluff (with grim undertones), or perhaps a sardonic black comedy (imagine, say, Shostakovich making an opera out of it!) - yet here we find it transmuted by Mozart's exquisite and often rather serious music into something strangely ambiguous and unexpectedly interesting. People are naturally going to have a variety of feelings about it. You have even called it sublime! Well, some of its music may well warrant such an encomium. But as a total work of art? I'll wager there will never be substantial agreement.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I don't consider Cosí's music on the same level as Figaro, Don Giovanni and the Magic Flute. Not enough arias, too many ensembles that grow tiresome, not to mention the absolutely ridiculous libretto. It is this kind of opera story that the unwashed masses would point to as to why they have a hard time getting into opera.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hpowders said:


> I don't consider Cosí's music on the same level as Figaro, Don Giovanni and the Magic Flute. Not enough arias, too many ensembles that grow tiresome, not to mention the absolutely ridiculous libretto. It is this kind of opera story that the unwashed masses would point to as to why they have a hard time getting into opera.


Jeez, h! You're a tougher critic than I am! :lol:

You will admit that some of those arias and ensembles are lovely, won't you? You're probably a perfect candidate for the "highlights" CD.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Jeez, h! You're a tougher critic than I am! :lol:
> 
> You will admit that some of those arias and ensembles are lovely, won't you? You're probably a perfect candidate for the "highlights" CD.


Highlights!! Of course! The answer was right there all the time. If you don't like all of a composer's offerings get a highlights disc. All the nice tunes with none of the boring stuff that gives context to the tunes. Please, don't any of you take me seriously and start having a go. I am joking.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> I don't consider Cosí's music on the same level as Figaro, Don Giovanni and the Magic Flute. Not enough arias, too many ensembles that grow tiresome, not to mention the absolutely ridiculous libretto. It is this kind of opera story that the unwashed masses would point to as to why they have a hard time getting into opera.


Sorry but the first time I heard it I was overwhelmed by it. It is a classic ensemble opera (like Falstaff in fact). The story is implausible certainly no more ridiculous than a whole lot of other opera stories. The libretto is actually a masterpiece, a classic of its kind, probably one of the most perfect ever written once you accept the story. To pick highlights from this opera is difficult as it is all highlights! I think your 'unwashed masses' would get into Cosi quicker than most other operas actually.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Highlights!! Of course! The answer was right there all the time. If you don't like all of a composer's offerings get a highlights disc. All the nice tunes with none of the boring stuff that gives context to the tunes. Please, don't any of you take me seriously and start having a go. I am joking.


Honestly, Barbebleu, it would be fine if you were serious too. How often do people have the time to devote to a whole opera, even when they'd like to?

I think Baroque and Classical operas were composed with the highlights CD in mind. Handel, Vivaldi and Mozart couldn't have been so deeply invested in recitativo secco as to resent us for cutting out the chatter for listening at home.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Honestly, Barbebleu, it would be fine if you were serious too. How often do people have the time to devote to a whole opera, even when they'd like to?
> 
> I think Baroque and Classical operas were composed with the highlights CD in mind. Handel, Vivaldi and Mozart couldn't have been so deeply invested in recitativo secco as to resent us for cutting out the chatter for listening at home.


Baroque is a blank for me sadly. My truly musical joys jump from Dowland to Haydn. By that I mean those periods in musical time. The late sixteenth through to early eighteenth century period holds no particular interest for me for reasons I am not quite sure of myself. There are exceptions of course, some Rameau, Scarlatti, if indeed Scarlatti is truly baroque. My loss I presume but there is plenty of stuff that floats my boat so I dare say I'll survive.

I'm going to get off this particular thread now. Don't want to upset the true Mozartians. Might go and wind up the Callas fans!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Baroque is a blank for me sadly. My truly musical joys jump from Dowland to Haydn. By that I mean those periods in musical time. The late sixteenth through to early eighteenth century period holds no particular interest for me for reasons I am not quite sure of myself. There are exceptions of course, some Rameau, Scarlatti, if indeed Scarlatti is truly baroque. My loss I presume but there is plenty of stuff that floats my boat so I dare say I'll survive.
> 
> I'm going to get off this particular thread now. Don't want to upset the true Mozartians. Might go and wind up the Callas fans!!


It's all right. We know you're harmless.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Jeez, h! You're a tougher critic than I am! :lol:
> 
> You will admit that some of those arias and ensembles are lovely, won't you? You're probably a perfect candidate for the "highlights" CD.


Sure, but the ridiculously disguised lovers kills it for me.

I will concede this point: Cosí is a much better opera to listen to at home than to view at the opera house.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Sorry but the first time I heard it I was overwhelmed by it. It is a classic ensemble opera (like Falstaff in fact). The story is implausible certainly no more ridiculous than a whole lot of other opera stories. The libretto is actually a masterpiece, a classic of its kind, probably one of the most perfect ever written once you accept the story. To pick highlights from this opera is difficult as it is all highlights! I think your 'unwashed masses' would get into Cosi quicker than most other operas actually.


Fine! I'll trade you 3 Cosí's for one good Don Giovanni.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Fine! I'll trade you 3 Cosí's for one good Don Giovanni.


How can you compare sheer genius with sheer genius? I can never make up my mind which of the da Ponte / Mozart operas is the greatest opera ever written. Usually it's the one I am listening to at the time! Afraid trading Mozart operas doesn't work for me. They are priceless!


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

For myself I can say that while I adore Le nozze di Figaro unequivocally, I am oddly unaffected by Cosi fan tutte and Don Giovanni, despite the fact that I see them as complex works filled with great music.

There's something about Cosi that has always struck me as slightly inharmonious, as well, though it's hard to put one's finger on. Maybe it is that Da Ponte created one type of thing with his libretto, skilfully crafted and polished to be sure, and Mozart wrote music of a entirely different tone and sentiment than the libretto would seem to suggest. Mozart's music adds a weight and a bitterness to the story that you wouldn't otherwise expect to experience in it.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

As a sheer joy to listen to I would probably take Cosi over the don or figaro - Dove Sono does get a bit tiresome when you have heard it for the umpteenth time and it's a long time since I laughed when susanah emerges from the closet - but I delight to the music of Cosi no matter how many times I hear it - not least the delicious music of the two belles. The finale of the 2nd act makes you wish it will just never end. I think Mozart really captured in music what women probably feel when they are at their highest state of bliss. 
Still let me not take away from the other two da ponte operas - I would probably change my mind if started to recall some of the music.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Faustian said:


> For myself I can say that while I adore Le nozze di Figaro unequivocally, I am oddly unaffected by Cosi fan tutte and Don Giovanni, despite the fact that I see them as complex works filled with great music.
> 
> There's something about Cosi that has always struck me as *slightly inharmonious,* as well, though it's hard to put one's finger on. Maybe it is that Da Ponte created one type of thing with his libretto, skilfully crafted and polished to be sure, and Mozart wrote music of a entirely different tone and sentiment than the libretto would seem to suggest. Mozart's music adds a weight and a bitterness to the story that you wouldn't otherwise expect to experience in it.


To me libretto and music are together in a way almost unmatched in opera. The whole thng is bittersweet as it is intended to be.


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

DavidA said:


> The whole thng is bittersweet as it is intended to be.


As intended by Da Ponte? With its farcical artificiality and silliness? I don't see that. It''s the kind of thing, on paper, that would seem to be more in line with a vibrant setting by a composer like Rossini.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Faustian said:


> As intended by Da Ponte? With its farcical artificiality and silliness? I don't see that. It''s the kind of thing, on paper, that would seem to be more in line with a vibrant setting by a composer like Rossini.


I think if you read about da Ponte you would see it's exactly what he intended. It's an acid comedic satire on social manners.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> How can you compare sheer genius with sheer genius? I can never make up my mind which of the da Ponte / Mozart operas is the greatest opera ever written. Usually it's the one I am listening to at the time! Afraid trading Mozart operas doesn't work for me. They are priceless!


For me, Figaro and Don Giovanni are at the head of the class. Cosí is a bit below them. That's my purely subjective evaluation.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

It was on radio yesterday. I am still not convinced that it is a great opera secco recitatives are still dull and boring.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sloe said:


> It was on radio yesterday. I am still not convinced that it is a great opera secco recitatives are still dull and boring.


Step with the wrong leg out off bed that morning?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Balthazar said:


> The first act trio _Soave sia il vento_ from Glyndebourne is particularly fine:
> I query whether those who would call this "masquerading as high art" or "too dumb" aren't telling us more about themselves than Mozart's opera.


Why would it be blasphemous to think that it is not high art?


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Mozart is my composer and Figaro is my opera. I’ve seen Cosi twice. At the Met in the late 70’s/early 80’s I enjoyed myself but not much more than that. I’d always loved the Bohm recording and did not think what I heard that night was on a plane with Bohm and co.’s sense of knowing how this darn thing goes! Then I saw a brilliant production at Yale. What came through in a way I’d never before recognized was that it is Fiordiligi’s opera! She was a woman who was one with her peers in her posing, her declarations and her superficiality. And by the end of the show she had emerged from the quartet onto a very real and Somewhat lonely and rather harrowing treck to find a much more adult relationship to love. I thought it was wonderful and was one of the memorable performances of my life. And I’ve loved Cosi ever since.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ScottK said:


> Mozart is my composer and Figaro is my opera. I’ve seen Cosi twice. At the Met in the late 70’s/early 80’s I enjoyed myself but not much more than that. I’d always loved the Bohm recording and did not think what I heard that night was on a plane with Bohm and co.’s sense of knowing how this darn thing goes! Then I saw a brilliant production at Yale. What came through in a way I’d never before recognized was that it is Fiordiligi’s opera! She was a woman who was one with her peers in her posing, her declarations and her superficiality. And by the end of the show she had emerged from the quartet onto a very real and Somewhat lonely and rather harrowing treck to find a much more adult relationship to love. I thought it was wonderful and was one of the memorable performances of my life. And I’ve loved Cosi ever since.


I do not know this opera well. Do people keep their new partners, or switch to the old ones ?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> I do not know this opera well. Do people keep their new partners, or switch to the old ones ?


It depends on the whims of the director - I’ve seen it done both ways. Presumably the men “fall in love” with the opposite sister.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

I like to think that the punchline is really "così fan tutti." We're _all_ like that. And while it takes one day for both sisters to fall when wooed with love, the men _instantly_ betray their fiancées for money. So who is worse?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Monsalvat said:


> I like to think that the punchline is really "così fan tutti." We're _all_ like that. And while it takes one day for both sisters to fall when wooed with love, the men _instantly_ betray their fiancées for money. So who is worse?


Worse is whoever decided to call it "tutte" rather than "tutti."


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Worse is whoever decided to call it "tutte" rather than "tutti."


So Don Basilio? Or Mozart? I thought Da Ponte called it _La scuola degli amanti_ or something along those lines, but Mozart preferred to quote Basilio's line, _Così fan tutte le belle_, from the _Cosa sento, tosto andate_ trio in Act I of _Figaro_. In any case, "tutte" better reflects how the opera focuses on the women, ironically glossing over the men's betrayal. But this interpretation is predicated on basically the entire work being ironic... perhaps it is. I don't know. Part of me thinks it is, or at least hopes that it is. That's just about the only justification for that title that I can come up with, that it's meant as an ironic joke in spite of the actual events which occur in the opera.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Monsalvat said:


> So Don Basilio? Or Mozart? I thought Da Ponte called it _La scuola degli amanti_ or something along those lines, but Mozart preferred to quote Basilio's line, _Così fan tutte le belle_, from the _Cosa sento, tosto andate_ trio in Act I of _Figaro_. In any case, "tutte" better reflects how the opera focuses on the women, ironically glossing over the men's betrayal. But this interpretation is predicated on basically the entire work being ironic... perhaps it is. I don't know. Part of me thinks it is, or at least hopes that it is. That's just about the only justification for that title that I can come up with, that it's meant as an ironic joke in spite of the actual events which occur in the opera.


I's nice to think that Mozart saw through the misogyny of his time. But misogyny is a hydra. The dialogue at the end is not encouraging:

Don Alfonso
I deceived you, but *my deception
Undeceived your lovers,
Who henceforth will be wiser
And will do as I wish.*
Give me your hands, now you're united.
Embrace each other and say no more.
All four of you can laugh now
As I have laughed and shall do again.

Fiordiligi and Dorabella
My love, if this is true,
With fidelity and with love
*I will make good what I have done*
And adore you evermore.

Ferrando and Guglielmo
I believe you, my fair one,
*But I won't put it to the test.*


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Whatever the vagaries on the libretto, I love the music: arias, duets, trios, and ensembles all.


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