# The Flagstad Physical Mystery



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I've been fascinated by singers who have the really big big voices for years and there is one common denominator they all seem to have: all have large faces from which to project their sound.
1. Sutherland and Nilsson's huge jaws and wide faces are great examples.
2. Callas had very wide cheekbones and a big mouth with a pointed cathedral like roof to the mouth, 3.Jessye Norman... everything in her face was very very big with a mouth like the entrance to Carlsbad Caverns
4. L Price: abnormally wide cheekbones and HUGE mouth
5. Dimitrova: cheekbones that stretch from Vienna to Budapest
6. Tebaldi: huge jaw, wide features
7. Ponselle: had a face that was a female version of Caruso with a very very wide mask
8. Trauble: very tall with a gigantic face and no neck
9. Gertrude Grob Prandl: face like a dinner plate
10. Astrid Varnay: people mistook her for Nilsson at Bayreuth when they were there. Big jaw
11.Stephanie Blythe: face as big as the Atlanta metro area
12: Radvanovsky: long wide features similar to the also very tall Tebaldi
13. Eileen Farrell: very wide cheekbones and a very protruding brow with no neck.
14: Eva Turner. She looked fat because she had no neck and a very, very huge face. She was actually a normal sized woman. 
You get the picture. Of course other factors enter in but this seems to be a very common thread among many of the famous singers with huge voices. The one exception I can think of is Flagstad, who may have had the biggest voice of all. Other than being a tall woman, her face was very ordinary in size. They only unusual physical features I can single out is her unusual nose with its very high bridge and she did have a very large mouth. Also, like Sutherland she had a very long, very muscular neck.






An interesting fact about her is she had a normal lyric soprano sound until she had a baby and after several months resting her voice after her baby was born her mother hear her first vocalizing and remarked on how her voice changed. Apparently she was one of these freaks like Christine Goerke who's' voice apparently tripled in size overnight. Also, Flagstad's chest grew something like 4" in her first year of singing Wagner. Things to ponder. I am doing a big speech on Flagstad for my Toastmasters Club soon so I am reflecting on these things. This has puzzled me for years.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

The New York Times - December 26, 2000 -

*VITAL SIGNS: PATTERNS; What a Big Mouth Means to Music
By Eric Nagourney*

Bassos have the biggest mouths.
No slur intended against bassos, whose deep-pitched tones usually make them instantly recognizable around an opera house.

Still, it should also be noted that those bassos have the biggest vocal cords, as well.
The findings come courtesy of Dr. Marco Di Girolamo, a radiologist and opera lover in Rome, who examined opera singers using a magnetic resonance imaging machine and presented his findings at a recent meeting of the Radiological Society of North America.

Dr. Girolamo, who practices at La Sapienza, the main campus of the University of Rome, said M.R.I. machines provided a better way to determine how to classify the vocal range of an opera student.
The teachers and the coaches who make the determination whether a student is, for example, a soprano or a contralto, or a tenor or a bass, can sometimes get it wrong.

Apart from the harm this can do to a singer's career, misclassification can also result in vocal cord nodes, a malady that causes hoarseness and that can force a singer to stop singing temporarily, Dr. Girolamo said.
In some rare instances, surgery is needed.

The study, which involved 12 men and 14 women, all professional opera singers, determined that the biggest factors influencing the range of a singer's voice were the size of the vocal cords and the shape and size of the vocal tract, which involves the mouth and the opening of the pharynx.

Longer cords and wider tracts appear characteristic of singers with the low-
pitched voices, like the baritones and bassos.

The higher-pitched voices tend to occur among the people with short cords and narrow tracts.

The performers were examined both at rest and while singing (no arias, just vowel sounds).

The bassos' vocal tracts measured an average 32.3 square centimeters.

And who has the smallest mouth?

That distinction goes to the mezzo-soprano, who measured an average of just 14.6 square centimeters -- less than half that found among the bassos.

If you pair each article you may find your answer...

*Why are opera singers fat?
It ain't over till...
By Dr Stephen Juan*

There are several theories attempting to explain why opera singers are often pleasingly plump. One holds that a large amount of fatty tissue surrounding the voice box (larynx) increases its resonance capability and thus produces a more pleasing sound. The amount of this fatty tissue varies from singer to singer. It is almost impossible to have a great deal of fatty tissue around the voice box without carrying a great deal of fatty tissue elsewhere on the body.

A second theory holds that opera singers need a far more powerful diaphragm than normal to be able to project their voice above the sound of a large orchestra in a large opera house. A large chest cavity and good control of the lungs will provide a suitable mass to help drive the diaphragm to some extent. A large body mass and a large body frame to support it help even more, so there is a huge advantage in being huge.

In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, when opera was an expanding medium, successive generations of opera producers sought larger and more dramatic effects in operas, larger audiences, and larger theatres. Being human, singers could not be re-engineered, so better vocal techniques were developed to better cope with this steady rise in size and volume - in all things.

Consistent with this, it was recognised that there was an advantage in having a large chest, rib cage, neck, mouth, everything. The desire for larger singers was not the only change. New technology for wind instruments and the reconstruction of older baroque string instruments also came about as the result of opera innovations.

A third theory comes from Dr Peter Osin of the Royal Marsden Hospital in London. Dr. Osin argues that opera singers "may be more predisposed to put on weight because exertions in the lungs act as a trigger for their appetite". He adds that "the mechanism of singing encourages the lung cells to release chemicals including leptin, a protein made by the body's fat cells that is involved in the regulation of appetite".

A fourth theory holds that the act of opera singing itself expands the body, particularly the rib cage. After years of singing, the opera singer's body may look fat, perhaps fatter than it really is. This is the implication of Australian research by Dr CW Thorpe and three colleagues from the National Voice Centre at the University of Sydney and published in the Journal of Voice 2001.
No doubt other theories will emerge. None can so far claim to be proven. As they say: "The opera ain't over until the fat lady sings".

- Duncan


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Hmmm. I have always had good breathing/support and a healthy diaphragm with which to do so. I suspect that came from being the Situp Champ of my high school where I actually did 1,000 situps in a day. It was about that same time I started singing (age 16), and I was 6'1" and 140 lbs. Terribly skinny. By age 38 or so I was 190 lbs and last winter due to emotional losses (my mom and sister scarcely two months apart) I topped out at 251. And I am 70 yrs old now, but weighed 220 this morning (with no popcorn). I have run about 200 miles this year for exercise and am watching the carbs. I definitely look smaller but I suspect even when I get back to my target weight of 190, I will still have that internal bellows that protrudes somewhat from what should be an otherwise svelte figure. 

So which came first? Did I become a professional (nearly so, at any rate) because I had good breathing/diaphragm? Or did I develop my diaphragm due to a long and still continuing career as a professional-quality singer? Some of both, I suspect. I was predisposed by coming from a musical family (several generations of singers that I know of), and we all tended to gain weight as we aged. Interesting article! 

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

While it's easy to observe that loud sounds tend to come out of large orqanisms, I'm inclined to think that beyond a frequent (but not precise or invariable) correlation of physical size with vocal volume a person's skeletal structure may have little to do with the perceived size of her voice. Flagstad was tall, so the correlation holds to some extent, but otherwise her build wasn't unusual. What we don't know is the internal structure of her vocal tube - the throat and mouth - and I suspect that that knowledge might provide much of the explanation for the power of her voice. We know that the other resonating cavities in the head contribute to a voice's timbre, but it's my impression that volume of sound has more to do with the size and shape of the immediate cavity of the vocal tract, which directly amplifies the sound waves set up by the vocal chords.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I love the feedback from differing perspectives. Thanks.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> While it's easy to observe that loud sounds tend to come out of large orqanisms, I'm inclined to think that beyond a frequent (but not precise or invariable) correlation of physical size with vocal volume a person's skeletal structure may have little to do with the perceived size of her voice. Flagstad was tall, so the correlation holds to some extent, but otherwise her build wasn't unusual. What we don't know is the internal structure of her vocal tube - the throat and mouth - and I suspect that that knowledge might provide much of the explanation for the power of her voice. We know that the other resonating cavities in the head contribute to a voice's timbre, but it's my impression that volume of sound has more to do with the size and shape of the immediate cavity of the vocal tract, which directly amplifies the sound waves set up by the vocal chords.


I think you are much more familiar with those areas than me. I know Nilsson had her vocal chords looked at by a specialist and he said they were simply astonishing. He had never seen anything like it. He had also looked at Christa Ludwig, who also tried to be a dramatic soprano, and said her vocal chords were not nearly so robust. Kathleen Ferrier had such a large mouth and throat you could push an apple to the back with no difficulty. The great Ella Fitzgerald had her sinuses looked at by a curious physician and he said they were considerably larger than most people. My sister taught voice for 40 years and she agreed with me that both Sutherland's and Nilsson's very large, prutruding jaws could greatly amplify the vocal sound. My ideas are just based upon similarities I've noticed with no scientific backup.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I think you are much more familiar with those areas than me. I know Nilsson had her vocal chords looked at by a specialist and he said they were simply astonishing. He had never seen anything like it. He had also looked at Christa Ludwig, who also tried to be a dramatic soprano, and said her vocal chords were not nearly so robust. Kathleen Ferrier had such a large mouth and throat you could push an apple to the back with no difficulty. The great Ella Fitzgerald had her sinuses looked at by a curious physician and he said they were considerably larger than most people. My sister taught voice for 40 years and she agreed with me that both Sutherland's and Nilsson's very large, prutruding jaws could greatly amplify the vocal sound. My ideas are just based upon similarities I've noticed with no scientific backup.


Looks like we'll have to dig up Kirsten. Maybe she can be reconstructed from DNA in the lab.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

OMG... you are a funny boy.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> OMG... you are a funny boy.


Hey, no joke! If we can build another Flagstad, we could make another Melchior too and finally get to hear real Wagnerian singing for the first time in fifty years. Then we could move on to Caruso, Ponselle, and Ruffo and have us some real Verdi. We wouldn't have to sit around sighing while watching This Is Opera videos.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Seattleoperafan said:


> My sister taught voice for 40 years and she agreed with me that both Sutherland's and Nilsson's very large, prutruding jaws could greatly amplify the vocal sound.


I would be interested to find out if there is any truth to this. In my experience, the jaw should be completely uninvolved when singing. But I guess that doesn't mean it won't play a role in amplification...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I would be interested to find out if there is any truth to this. In my experience, the jaw should be completely uninvolved when singing. But I guess that doesn't mean it won't play a role in amplification...


Only if the large jaw implies a large mouth cavity. It's the size of the air space, not the bones, that matters.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Only if the large jaw implies a large mouth cavity. It's the size of the air space, not the bones, that matters.


Er, if those large jawbones are hollowed out (a common operatic practice?) it can make a real difference. Many hadrosaurs had such hollows in their skull protrubances, evidently to amplify the volume of their mating calls, which is, after all, what opera is all about.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Er, if those large jawbones are hollowed out (a common operatic practice?) it can make a real difference. Many hadrosaurs had such hollows in their skull protrubances, evidently to amplify the volume of their mating calls, which is, after all, what opera is all about.


Perhaps we could bring back the castrati and make them even more impressive by hollowing out their jawbones too. This would involve the removal of muscles and teeth, but since most opera is in languages that nobody understands we can do without the words. Sutherland fans wouldn't notice the difference. :angel:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Only if the large jaw implies a large mouth cavity. It's the size of the air space, not the bones, that matters.


Still, at the big Met 25th Anniversary Gala, supposedly Nilsson and Sutherland had the biggest voices there out of all those singers from ear witnesses and they both had really prominent huge jaws. It makes me think. Ponselle felt her gigantic voice benefitted from having those very wide cheekbones like Caruso. I am no scientist, but there are a lot of overlapping of similar physical traits for me to overlook the coincidences. I don't see why bones and cavities couldn't aid in amplification. I am not a singer, though.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> 14: Eva Turner. She looked fat because she had no neck and a very, very huge face. She was actually a normal sized woman.
> You get the picture. Of course other factors enter in but this seems to be a very common thread among many of the famous singers with huge voices. The one exception I can think of is Flagstad, who may have had the biggest voice of all. Other than being a tall woman, her face was very ordinary in size. They only unusual physical features I can single out is her unusual nose with its very high bridge and she did have a very large mouth. Also, like Sutherland she had a very long, very muscular neck.
> View attachment 125156
> An interesting fact about her is she had a normal lyric soprano sound until she had a baby and after several months resting her voice after her baby was born her mother hear her first vocalizing and remarked on how her voice changed. Apparently she was one of these freaks like Christine Goerke who's' voice apparently tripled in size overnight. Also, Flagstad's chest grew something like 4" in her first year of singing Wagner. Things to ponder. I am doing a big speech on Flagstad for my Toastmasters Club soon so I am reflecting on these things. This has puzzled me for years.


unpopular opinion: Flagstad's voice was always quite "lyrical" even when singing the most dramatic rep for the soprano voice. it doesn't surprise me at all that she started with lyric rep.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> unpopular opinion: Flagstad's voice was always quite "lyrical" even when singing the most dramatic rep for the soprano voice. it doesn't surprise me at all that she started with lyric rep.


Agreed. I always cite the way she handles "Mir erkoren, mir verloren..." and "Er sah mir in die Auge..." in Act 1 of Tristan as perfect examples of beautiful, poised, legato lyricism. You have no sense of her making an effort to scale her voice down, as you often have with Nilsson. It makes sense that Flagstad was much loved as a song recitalist.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I can't say whether this applies to Flagstad, but it could relate somewhat to what Balalaikaboy said. Some 'huge voices' aren't actually huge voices but rather singers that have mastered the technique they need for maximum resonance. Dolora Z says all the time that she doesn't have a huge voice. She's a master of resonance. There is definitely a difference


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I can't say whether this applies to Flagstad, but it could relate somewhat to what Balalaikaboy said. Some 'huge voices' aren't actually huge voices but rather singers that have mastered the technique they need for maximum resonance. Dolora Z says all the time that she doesn't have a huge voice. She's a master of resonance. There is definitely a difference


It's true that some voices not exceptionally large carry well because they're so clearly focused, and that this enables them to succeed in roles that might be thought too heavy for them. A good example is Jussi Bjoerling, generally classed as a lyric tenor but effective in roles such as Manrico, Radames and (on recordings) Calaf. Flagstad really did have a huge voice, by all reports, but certainly her perfectly focused tone contributed to its effect.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It's true that some voices not exceptionally large carry well because they're so clearly focused, and that this enables them to succeed in roles that might be thought too heavy for them. A good example is Jussi Bjoerling, generally classed as a lyric tenor but effective in roles such as Manrico, Radames and (on recordings) Calaf. Flagstad really did have a huge voice, by all reports, but certainly her perfectly focused tone contributed to its effect.


Something I forgot to mention, Woodduck, is that my sister said that after singing an opera the front of her face hurt from all of the vibration created in the mask. She was a lyric soprano. How much more so a larger voice if they used a similar technique. I am sure the area inside the throat and mouth cavity played a big part as you mentioned, but by her technique the vibration in the mask itself became sore so was used somehow in vocal production. Singers drove for hours from all over Germany to study with her.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Still, at the big Met 25th Anniversary Gala, supposedly Nilsson and Sutherland had the biggest voices there out of all those singers from ear witnesses and they both had really prominent huge jaws.


They would have been second and third respectively if Ethel Merman had been there...

Not entirely certain about the jaw/cheekbone/size of head ratio compared to the others -

















Nothing is louder than "Ethel Merman loud"... I can vividly remember hearing her sing live in Ottawa... She was actually in New York at the time though - that's how loud she was...


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Mollie John said:


> They would have been second and third respectively if Ethel Merman had been there...
> 
> Not entirely certain about the jaw/cheekbone/size of head ratio compared to the others -
> 
> ...


LOL. Tebaldi heard her live and was very impressed and Tebaldi you could hear around the block... if I remember the quote.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Who is that woman in Rogerx's avatar? Is that Flagstad? Every time I see that picture, I admire that neck. So long, so muscular, so...fully packed.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> Who is that woman in Rogerx's avatar? Is that Flagstad? Every time I see that picture, I admire that neck. So long, so muscular, so...fully packed.


That's Joan Sutherland. She was a big girl with a big voice.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

If you want to really be thrown for a loop. look at this singer and then listen to his voice


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> If you want to really be thrown for a loop. look at this singer and then listen to his voice


I expected him to be a bass with that long neck. Plenty of room for a big larynx and long vocal folds. He's probably 7 feet tall too.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I expected him to be a bass with that long neck. Plenty of room for a big larynx and long vocal folds. He's probably 7 feet tall too.[/QUOTE
> Gorgeous! Handsome man.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Gorgeous! Handsome man.


Da. On khochet tvoy nomer telefona.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Here's a Russian singer:


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I expected him to be a bass with that long neck. Plenty of room for a big larynx and long vocal folds. He's probably 7 feet tall too.


what I wanna know is why basses tend to be tall and lean while contraltos are usually stocky with broader faces


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> what I wanna know is why basses tend to be tall and lean while contraltos are usually stocky with broader faces


It's time to compile some detailed statistics on the physical dimensions of singers, broken down by fach. That should keep you and Seattleoperafan happily occupied for, oh, a year or so.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> what I wanna know is why basses tend to be tall and lean while contraltos are usually stocky with broader faces


You also have basses who are tall and Oh-My-God. Like Matti Salminen.


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## Scott in PA (Aug 13, 2016)

The young Norwegian soprano Lisa Davidsen has a large face and a statuesque body. She is moving into the dramatic repertory and recently made her Bayreuth debut. Here she is singing a Grieg song in 2015:






I rather think Flagstad did in fact have a large face:









These two ladies almost look distantly related, which, given the same ethnos, they probably are.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Scott in PA said:


> The young Norwegian soprano Lisa Davidsen has a large face and a statuesque body. She is moving into the dramatic repertory and recently made her Bayreuth debut. Here she is singing a Grieg song in 2015:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Flagstad's face got much much bigger as she gained weight in her 50's. Big cheeks and full neck.







An interesting observation about the gigantic size of her voice. Supposedly it always sounded like she was standing right in front of you and even soft and piano singing carried over the orchestra, allowing her great latitude in shading the music.


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