# Difficult works of the common practice period



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

There's always a lot of talk on here about the difficulty of modern and contemporary music. But the 20th and 21st century have no monopoly on difficulty. What works from centuries past have you found inscrutable? Did you eventually come around to any of them? I'll start with a few:

-Mahler's 9th symphony. This piece honestly sounded like nonsense to me the first time I heard it. I've since come to love it.

-Bach's Art of Fugue. Bach is my favorite composer. I've listened to recordings of this on harpsichord, organ and strings. To this day, I don't really get it.

-Beethoven's C sharp minor quartet: The fugue at the beginning is arresting, but the rest of it was a puzzle to me at first. I now like a lot of it, but I'm still not sure I grasp how it fits together.

Others?


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2015)

So many things are a function of the listener, not of the thing being listened to. 

Difficulty is one of them.

So I can imagine that just about any piece from any time could give any person difficulties--or, that is, that any person will be capable (!) of having difficulties with just about anything.

Having said that, it is of course also true that generally speaking, the older the piece, the more likely it is to have become thoroughly assimilated. This is true even for a person who has not heard the piece, yet. That is, the idiom of the Baroque or of the Classical eras is so familiar, that even a piece from then that you've never heard before will sound utterly familiar.

So while I would agree that 20th and 21st century pieces are no more difficult than 18th or 19th century pieces, generally, it is also true that the more recent a work, the more likely it is to be unfamiliar. And unfamiliar translates very sweetly into "difficult," hence the appearance of the monopoly you have eschewed.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

some guy said:


> And unfamiliar translates very sweetly into "difficult," hence the appearance of the monopoly you have eschewed.


I've often had the opposite problem. Maybe because the music of the past sounds as something known I often struggle to give attention to pieces for an excess of familiarity. And that obviously does not mean that the piece is boring in itself or necessarily easier (is it probably true that a lot of times I miss a lot of subtle details), but that I can find a traditional piece much less accessible than a piece that sounds unusual.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I actually find pre-baroque music to be difficult possibly because much of it is modal. Well, pre-Renaissance music then. It can feel unresolved even more so than 20th/21st century music. I wonder if the modes are close enough to common practice that my ears expect either major or minor when sometimes it's nothing of the kind. 

(Note: this is not counter to some guy's general theory of older = easier. That certainly holds true until the time becomes too distant and alien to many of us.)

Edit: Well, I goofed. Medieval music is not part of the common practice period as the thread title indicates, is it?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Of all the works I've ever heard from the CP period or before, only one was distinctly odd sounding and unpleasant - Beethoven's Grosse Fuge. There were others that I didn't necessarily like, but they all sounded at least pleasant. The Grosse Fuge stunned me a bit since I had never heard anything from pre-1900 music that sounded "bad" to my ears. After listening a number of times I gradually started to hear the work differently, and today it is my favorite Beethoven quartet and one of my all time favorite quartets.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2015)

Mahler has always been more difficult for me than the vast majority of contemporary music, but that's not to say difficult things aren't rewarding!


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I never had difficulty with any piece apart from Brian's Gothic Symphony... still haven't been able to stay awake to hear the whole thing yet.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Schumann's 3rd symphony I have found to be difficult for myself to enjoy for a long time, until I heard Yannick Nézet-Séguin's recording. It was only then when I could finally hear the ingenious orchestration and clarity of counterpoint in this wonderfull piece of music.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

norman bates said:


> I've often had the opposite problem. Maybe because the music of the past sounds as something known I often struggle to give attention to pieces for an excess of familiarity. And that obviously does not mean that the piece is boring in itself or necessarily easier (is it probably true that a lot of times I miss a lot of subtle details), but that I can find a traditional piece much less accessible than a piece that sounds unusual.


I'd say too that baroque or classical-era music in particular might sound "easy" in the sense of the general style being familiar, but if you're not especially attuned to that style you're left with the prospect of it all sounding "the same", which presents its own particular difficulties.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Can't believe I forgot the Grosse Fuge.

I bet we could get some of the avowed 12-tone haters here to admit that a bunch of 12-tone pieces are prettier than the Grosse Fuge.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

I find Chopin's Preludes, Op. 28 difficult to "get", even though I like most of his music. Mostly, I find the individual preludes too short to really cut my teeth into. And because I don't quite enjoy the individual pieces, the whole set of 24 doesn't make any more sense as a whole, as it should apparently. Although, of course, I like a few pieces out of the 24 quite a lot.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Diabelli Variations - difficult to grasp the order, the ending.
Schubert D840/i - So ungoal-directed, difficult like Feldman's difficult


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

shangoyal said:


> I find Chopin's Preludes, Op. 28 difficult to "get", even though I like most of his music. Mostly, I find the individual preludes too short to really cut my teeth into. And because I don't quite enjoy the individual pieces, the whole set of 24 doesn't make any more sense as a whole, as it should apparently. Although, of course, I like a few pieces out of the 24 quite a lot.


Why do you say op 28 should make sense as a whole?


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2015)

Albert7 said:


> I never had difficulty with any piece apart from Brian's Gothic Symphony... still haven't been able to stay awake to hear the whole thing yet.


Try Dieter Schnebel's _Sinfonie X_. Significantly longer, and yet somehow more engaging.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Why do you say op 28 should make sense as a whole?


Yeah, probably the composer never intended them to mean anything as a whole. But they are a set of pieces grouped under the same Opus, and because they are so short, I tend to listen to more than one of them. If you compare the Opus with something like Kinderszenen, it's quite difficult to digest all the little ideas individually, and still get any sense of wholeness or completion from the 24.

EDIT: I found this on Wiki

_Individually they seem like pieces in their own right ... But each works best along with the others, and in the intended order ... The Chopin preludes seem to be at once twenty-four small pieces and one large one. As we note or sense at the start of each piece the various connections to and changes from the previous one, we then feel free to involve ourselves - as listeners, as players, as commentators - only with the new pleasure at hand._
-Jeffrey Kresky in A Reader's Guide to the Chopin Preludes


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

shangoyal said:


> Mostly, I find the individual preludes too short to really cut my teeth into.


I love the short piano preludes by Chopin and Scriabin. I find something irresistible in these self-contained, fleeting musical moments. They may be short but the good ones still offer a rich musical world. They almost ask to be repeated mulitple times.
Every composer should be able to write something like that.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

When I first hear a new piece by Reger, my first thought is usually that it sounds like a lot of activity with no substantial ideas.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2015)

Mahlerian said:


> When I first hear a new piece by Reger, my first thought is usually that it sounds like a lot of activity with no substantial ideas.


Oh, you bitch !! Substantiate your argument, you cow !!
[Note to Mods: I'm joking, it's a joke, don't "infract" me !!]


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

TalkingHead said:


> Oh, you bitch !! Substantiate your argument, you cow !!
> [Note to Mods: I'm joking, it's a joke, don't "infract" me !!]


Like I said, it's only my _first_ impression. Usually subsequent listens reveal far more than first met the ear!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Schumann and Brahms both tend to not have as much ear candy on the first listen(not always), for me and a lot of people. There are certain Russians, Taneyev and Medtner, who also very much fit this bill. Berlioz in perhaps a different way, is difficult due to his unusual phrases and big, big ideas. Buckner due to his big forms and quirks. All these composers reward tremendously though.

Similarly, it is actually more difficult to appreciate the finer points of Tchaikovsky, when there is so much ease on a lot of the surface.

Appreciating a host of obscure Haydn and Mozart symphonies and symphonies and those by others less known, as separate works in their own right van be a challenge for the romantically attuned ear, and he same is true of baroque music. It is easy to let it pleasantly slip by, but the finer points are there for the more patient and immersed listener.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Bach was very hard for me to like for many months. The Well Tempered Clavier meant absolutely nothing to me for a long time. Eventually I learned to enjoy all the counterpoint. 

Like others mentioned, my reaction to the Grosse Fuge went from disgust to immense awe over a period of many listens. 

Wagner is another that I'm still working hard to like. I'm starting to really enjoy many moments in Tristan but there's also still plenty in it that doesn't grab me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I look forward to another go at the slow movement of Beethoven's _Hammerklavier Sonata._ Maybe I'll finally reverse my long-standing feeling that it's the only movement in Beethoven's work that's both thematically bland and unsuccessful as a form.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I look forward to another go at the slow movement of Beethoven's _Hammerklavier Sonata._ Maybe I'll finally reverse my long-standing feeling that it's the only movement in Beethoven's work that's both thematically bland and unsuccessful as a form.


If you can listen to Pollini or Schiff's _Hammerklavier_, I'd recommend them. They don't drag it out and overdo it, they actually bring out the structure of the movement, which goes out the window with some other pianists who stretch it out to absurd lengths. Schiff's is 15 and a half minutes, Pollini's is just a bit over 17 minutes. By "compacting" it, they make the notes seem more _effective_, more _necessary_, as opposed to wandering. They can acclimatize you to the waters of the Adagio Sostenuto, then when you've "got" it, give someone like Uchida or Solomon a chance.

Happy listening!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DiesIraeCX said:


> If you can listen to Pollini or Schiff's _Hammerklavier_, I'd recommend them. They don't drag it out and overdo it, they actually bring out the structure of the movement, which goes out the window with some other pianists who stretch it out to absurd lengths. Schiff's is 15 and a half minutes, Pollini's is just a bit over 17 minutes. By "compacting" it, they make the notes seem more _effective_, more _necessary_, as opposed to wandering. They can acclimatize you to the waters of the Adagio Sostenuto, then when you've "got" it, give someone like Uchida or Solomon a chance.
> 
> Happy listening!


Thanks. I always appreciate optimism.


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

Mahlerian said:


> When I first hear a new piece by Reger, my first thought is usually that it sounds like a lot of activity with no substantial ideas.


mahlerian i have to say i am liking what i hear so far...! thanks for the inclusion of the piece.


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