# Opera in English



## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Hey everyone,

Someone lent me Handel's "Julius Caesar", and I was pretty excited...until I found out it is sung in English. Is this a legitimate way to watch an opera I have not heard in its original Italian? Or does the music suffer because of the translation?

Further, is translating and listening to opera, (any opera) in English a legitimate way of engaging with the composer's musical vision?


{this isn't a specific challenge to the Chandos label, just a question regarding the musical legitimacy of any opera being translated by any company.}


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I generally don't have a problem with works being sung in translation. Surely for many composers, the goal is to write a piece that is accessible and that can be understood by a large audience. If that means translating it, so be it.

Only if the whole point is for the work not to be understood by a wide audience (e.g. composers who set obscure Latin sacred texts) would I be against translating it.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

*go compare!*


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

I've listened to Giulio Cesare in both English and German, as well as in the original Italian. They were all very good versions and I would not advice that anyone should avoid listening to an opera just because that particular version is translated from the original language setting. The original music, however, was composed while being set to that original language. I've found no translation, no matter how cunningly crafted, that can compensate for the effect achieved by the fusing of words and music that occured at the moment of creation. Accessibility _is_ gained in translation, but something of the appreciation is lost thereby. I first listened to Boris Godunov in an English translation. Accessibility being achieved, I then sought out versions in the original Russian. This way, as a waystation or means of access to the original, is how translated texts worked for me. It was like reading a libretto translation, but with the music added.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I've not listened to anything on CD which wasn't in its original language but I did see _Don Pasquale_ sung in English and found it didn't work for me.

I'm going to see _Rigoletto_ next year at ENO which always performs their operas in English. I think I'm going to find it strange but I hope it will be worth going.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I saw the Ring in English in Seattle with Remedios and Hunter and it was fantastic. It greatly improved the entertainment value of Siiegfried in particular. The monologues made sense.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I don't see how words in a different language can make music suffer. The music, I'm opera, is just there to create the atmosphere and to accompany the singing. The singing is there so the words can be heard. Changing the language of the words would not change anything really and I highly doubt that any composer would care since in most cases they did not write the words in the first place. The story will still be told, the characters would still be saying the same things (just in a different language), but of course translations could never be word for word so some word painting would be lost and perhaps a particularly poetic line won't be as poetic if it wasn't in the original language. This is small price to pay, however, but it hardly detracts from the work as a whole.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I don't see how words in a different language can make music suffer. The music, I'm opera, is just there to create the atmosphere and to accompany the singing. The singing is there so the words can be heard. Changing the language of the words would not change anything really and I highly doubt that any composer would care since in most cases they did not write the words in the first place. The story will still be told, the characters would still be saying the same things (just in a different language), but of course translations could never be word for word so some word painting would be lost and perhaps a particularly poetic line won't be as poetic if it wasn't in the original language. This is small price to pay, however, but it hardly detracts from the work as a whole.


It seems like it would be that way, but I know that I don't enjoy an opera as much when its in English.
English operas excepted.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Itullian said:


> It seems like it would be that way, but I know that I don't enjoy an opera as much when its in English.
> English operas excepted.


I've seen a few English operas now live and on DVD & have really loved them. _Anna Nicole_ excepted.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

bigshot said:


> I saw the Ring in English in Seattle with Remedios and Hunter and it was fantastic. It greatly improved the entertainment value of Siiegfried in particular. The monologues made sense.


The monologues make sense in the original language, but a little work is required if one is to get the most out of it.
Italian and French translate into english with difficulty - the latin/Gallic vowels and consonants have a totally different dynamic. once translated, the sounds are so different that they sound wrong. There are some good translations, but not that many.
The only good Verdi in english I can remember was the Jonathan Miller Rigoletto at the ENO 30 years ago.
It worked because they updated the language as well as the production (1950's New York "The Duke" was the gang boss and Rigoletto was the Barman/comedian).
A lot of productions fall short because of the stilted artificiality of the translation - not enough thought goes into whether the
translation can be adapted to the production idea.
The greatest of them all is surely Andrew Porter's Ring translation mounted at SW/ENO 40+ years ago.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

I like the idea of translating opera and otherwise doing them differently but it only occasionally works out well it seems. The Goodall ring and Charles Mackerras conducting _The Magic Flute_ are two that produced a good fit between music and words, other times the words rather awkwardly ride atop the music and don't seem integrated.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Changing the language of the words would not change anything really and I highly doubt that any composer would care since in most cases they did not write the words in the first place. The story will still be told, the characters would still be saying the same things (just in a different language), but of course translations could never be word for word so some word painting would be lost and perhaps a particularly poetic line won't be as poetic if it wasn't in the original language. This is small price to pay, however, but it hardly detracts from the work as a whole.


hm, not so sure. I don't know about others, but Italian opera is rather word dependent in that you can tell the music flows with the words. There is evidence that some composers (like Mozart and Bellini) really cared about the words and often times fought with the librettists over the text. Also, I for one enjoy word painting greatly.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Pip says it pretty well... A good translation takes into account the rhythm of the words and how they blend with the music. It can be done artfully or poorly, just like the singing or the orchestra -- hearing an awful singer who used perfect diction but was all over the place in the tones and music quality would be terrible. Liikewise a bad translation.

I really don't worry about it. And understand... if you see an original language opera in English (like Of Mice and Men), sometimes you can't pick up the actual lyrics easily, especially if from a chorus, and supertitles are very helpful even if the lyrics are in your "home" language.

I speak passable German ("How's your German?" "He's fine, how's yours?" courtesy of the Goon Show) and although the lyrics were crystal clear when I saw Magic Flute at the Houston Grand Opera, the supertitles were still a good thing.

A little funny story... When I first joined the small opera company where I sang, we in the men's chorus were doing our first rehearsals with Rigoletto. We were all gathered around the piano and our rehearsal coach was taking us through Act 1 Scene 1, the Duke's palace, where we would sing "Vendetta" and such, in Italian, which none of us spoke, so everything would be learned phonetically.

And one of the guys asked, "What if we forget the lyrics?" "You won't forget," our pianist replied, "We'll practice a lot and get it right." "But what if...?" "Then," said our coach, "Just sing _something _Italian!"


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I have a very limited experience with opera compared to many of you, but personally, I have never heard an opera sung in English, whether a translation or original, that I enjoyed. Anytime I hear an opera sung in English I get the feeling that I'm listening to MisterRogers doing one of those 'opera Friday' things.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Most American singers learn opera from the huge G. Schirmer library. They are big solidly bound paperbacks with a red/black cover featuring, I think, La Scala.

All my Schirmer scores are beat up and ragged from being tossed on stage, into the dressing room, into the backseat of my car (am I the only person who normally has a full operatic vocal score of Nozze and a complete edition of Joyce's "Ulysses" in my back seat? ha ha) But you never know when you'll need either, right?

Anyway, most of the Italian original language Schirmer scores feature the English interlinear translation by Ruth & Thomas Martin. And if you actually compare the lyrics, it will either make you laugh or cry, depending on your mood. The translations are very, ah, "liberal" and focus mostly on the rhythm, word meaning be damned.

When I first began singing seriously, I made my own translations and penciled them in (if I owned the score) for cantatas and masses. Of course, being a lifelong Episcopalian (Anglican) who sang in the choir as a boy, I knew the Latin quite well. So transferring to Italian or French or German was a common thing.

But the Martin translations are laughed at by most singers. A few defend the terrible conversions, saying that the syllables and rhythm matches the original, but backstage we'd often pick our favorite bad translations and laugh. Understand, we were singing opera in the original language but the Martin-created English was lurking there to stump us.

One of the most famous of all opening words of any opera is "Cinque" (five) from Figaro in Nozze. Well, the Martins have it as "eighteen" or something else with 2 syllables. And all the other numbers are equally screwy. In Giovanni, the chorus at the Don's big party sings about butterflies fitting and bees buzzing. Gimme a break!

And when I sang "Antonio" in Nozze, I carefully inked out the Martin translation and penned my own, which was made from online sources plus my Italian/English reference. And I did this even though I'd be singing the Italian, because I wanted to have an accurate English structure for me to better appreciate what I was singing.

For Giovanni and Rigoletto, when I was in the chorus, I again made a careful, accurate English word-for-word and typed it up, handed it out to all the others in the chorus. Many just glanced at it and probably tossed it later. But a few days after I did this the first time, our Maestro came over to me in the dressing room and thanked me. And he also asked if I'd be willing to proofread our supertitles, which I was happy to do.

Of course, supertitles don't need to be perfect translations, just so they capture the gist of the lyrics. And has been said, updated productions will often use newer phrases or slang. An excellent example is the new, superb Rigoletto from the Met, set in '60s mob ruled Las Vegas. But the translation works perfectly.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

deggial said:


> hm, not so sure. I don't know about others, but Italian opera is rather word dependent in that you can tell the music flows with the words. There is evidence that some composers (like Mozart and Bellini) really cared about the words and often times fought with the librettists over the text. Also, I for one enjoy word painting greatly.


I do agree, original language is best, regardless of whether it's Italian or German or English or whatever. But a careful, faithful translation is fine with me, especially if it brings in new fans.

Many English-only speakers tend to think of Italian as "slushy" or "sloppy" because it's got more open vowels and just sounds "laid back" to an English speaker. But in fact, as most here know, Italian pronunciation is quite precise, especially dipthongs, which some singers might otherwise slur over. Dipthongs are 2 vowels together... Italian words like "tuo" (your) can be slurred into one syllable "twwo" but instead are crisply "tu-oh", because in Italian, all dipthongs are two syllables.

German and French are equally precise. It's just that for French and Italian, the higher frequency of open vowels can lead an only-English speaker to assume that the pronunciation is catch-as-catch-can. It's not.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

katdad said:


> Most American singers learn opera from the huge G. Schirmer library. They are big solidly bound paperbacks with a red/black cover featuring, I think, La Scala.
> 
> All my Schirmer scores are beat up and ragged from being tossed on stage, into the dressing room, into the backseat of my car (am I the only person who normally has a full operatic vocal score of Nozze and a complete edition of Joyce's "Ulysses" in my back seat? ha ha) But you never know when you'll need either, right?
> 
> ...


:tiphat:

Thank you. Absolutely fascinating!!

It's fantastic to have a real singer as a member & for him to make such interesting & entertaining contributions.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Here's another vote for opera sung in the original language. On the few occasions I've heard opera performed in English translation, I didn't like it. On the other hand, I'd often wondered why Siegfried Jerusalem's recordings of arias from Weber's _Oberon_ sounded just a little strange -- until I found out that the original libretto is in English, and he was singing a German translation. When my mother was growing up in Germany, it was common for operas with non-German librettos to be sung in German translation, and that seemed to be appropriate for that particular time and for the culture. I'm glad that we have the supertitle technology now, so that those who want a translation can have it, and those who don't feel the need can simply ignore the titles.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

As a great fan of singers like Hotter, Wunderlich ,Frick ect, there is the possibility here in Germany to still buy the old
"querschnitt" recordings made by Electrola in the 50s and 60s - opera highlight LPs(now CDs) of all the famous Italian operas
with great german singers - all sung in german. Verdi in german is not as bad as it sounds.(look up Amazon.de)

I have a marvelous DVD of Don Carlos with James King ,Fischer-Dieskau and Greindl as king philip- all sung in german.
It works - in most of the regional german opera houses, they were still singing Verdi in german until the late 70s.
Also Puccini, which works less well, Puccini's music lies differently for the voice than Verdi, and the translations don't help the music at all.
In my day as a young man going to Covent Garden in the 60s, there were no supertitles, we did our homework before going to the performances - it paid off. 
I feel that today's opera fans are a little spoilt - the need'nt do any spadework before, they can just sit and read the titles, which, I think, takes a great deal away from the musical and dramatic playing on the stage.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Pip, that brought back really old memories. The first recording of Rigoletto I heard was one sung in German, in the 50s, which my father bought by mistake. He liked the singers but neglected to notice the language. I was surprised to hear those strange noises as I'd recently watched a movie of Rigoletto with Tito Gobbi, in Italian of course.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

There are quite a few fascinating renditions of Verdi in German. This one is one of my favourites:


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Revenant said:


> Pip, that brought back really old memories. The first recording of Rigoletto I heard was one sung in German, in the 50s, which my father bought by mistake. He liked the singers but neglected to notice the language. I was surprised to hear those strange noises as I'd recently watched a movie of Rigoletto with Tito Gobbi, in Italian of course.


That would definitely be a culture shock.
Curiously , as I sit here typing this I am transferring an old tape recording onto hard-disc.
Boris Godunov from Bavarian Radio in 1957 conducted by Jochum and sung in german - here is the cast
Hotter, Hopf, Mödl, Nissen, Uhde, Fehenberger, Kusche, Kuen and Kim Borg. Not bad! It's a good performance.

I remember going to see Falstaff at CG in 1967 with Fischer-Dieskau singing the title role, the critics, tore him to shreds, finding his teutonic blend of humour not to their tastes having been sated with the buffoonery of Geraint Evans or the tour de force that was Tito Gobbi, they could not take to him at all. More's the pity because F-D felt so insulted, he never sang at CG again.
I remember that like it was yesterday and I saw him do it again in Munich years later - he was a fine interpreter of the role.
Maybe a little too much Henry IV and not enough Merrie Wives.... in his makeup, nevertheless - great Verdi.
Coming back to Verdi in german, his Posa was tremendous, in both languages.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Pip said:


> I feel that today's opera fans are a little spoilt - the need'nt do any spadework before, they can just sit and read the titles, which, I think, takes a great deal away from the musical and dramatic playing on the stage.


I saw an interview with David McVicar & he said he hated surtitles & that if he had his way he'd ban them. I wouldn't go that far but I can understand his frustration.

He said some people concentrate on the surtitles & don't really watch what is happening onstage. With a comedy he said the audience was reading the punchline & laughing before the singer had actually sung the words.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

it's good to be able to check with the surtitles if you can't remember every little detail of text, which I bet very few do. With Mozart or Rossini comedies and even Strauss you can miss quite a bit of the fun if you don't remember everything. You don't have to read every single word, just check the general idea. I'm for surtitles.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

I find that the formal recit-and-aria style of Italian baroque opera works quite well in English. There are usually few words in the arias themselves, and thoughts are usually succinctly articulated. Under those circumstances, it's arguably easier to fashion a good, singable translation than it is from (say) Mozart/Da Ponte onwards. The recitative stayed broadly the same, but post-Figaro the arias get a little bit more "wordy", and musically more complex; harder to translate, and harder to avoid those dreaded "filler syllables" like "now", "sir" and "ma'am" which, whilst necessary to preserve the rhythm, sound totally lame when sung.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Pip said:


> That would definitely be a culture shock.
> Curiously , as I sit here typing this I am transferring an old tape recording onto hard-disc.
> Boris Godunov from Bavarian Radio in 1957 conducted by Jochum and sung in german - here is the cast
> Hotter, Hopf, Mödl, Nissen, Uhde, Fehenberger, Kusche, Kuen and Kim Borg. Not bad! It's a good performance.
> ...


There was nothing at all wrong with DFD's concept of Falstaff,the problem was the voice was not "fat" enough.Also if you've seen a performance you must know that he didn't have that much voice anyway. As for Geraint Evans I'm surprised that you describe his performance as buffoonery--how painful !


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

My sister was an opera singer in the 60's and 70's in Germany in a medium sized German city. All of the operas were translated into German and she thought that made sense. This was especially so before the age of supratitles. I actually enjoy listening to opera in the car in another language as I would rather concentrate on the beautiful music and not the often silly plot ( don't hate me) and wish most excessively silly pop music was sung in Italian. That being said, I do find English to be one of the least beautiful languages to sing opera in. It works for pop as pop is almost never bel canto but syncopated these days.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

moody said:


> There was nothing at all wrong with DFD's concept of Falstaff,the problem was the voice was not "fat" enough.Also if you've seen a performance you must know that he didn't have that much voice anyway. As for Geraint Evans I'm surprised that you describe his performance as buffoonery--how painful !


Well, I saw Evans sing it 3 times between 1968 and 1978 and by that time it had become a caricature. I have the first broadcast from 1961 at CG and he is not much different. Lets's face it , he played the role for laughs as he did with most of his roles. I'm not decrying that, but I think that there is more to the role than just "the laughs". Evans had become the darling at CG and his Falstaff became revered, but not by me. Nor his Beckmesser either.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

I was pondering this while listening to Britten's Billy Budd the other day - being in English gave me a greater insight into the action and Britten's intricate word painting but also made it seem campy and stylised and that was a bit distracting. Although BB is not exactly the _straightest_ opera you'll hear

I don't agree about surtitles - seems to me to be perfect compromise (and they are read v quickly - you won't miss much of the slow moving stagey action) and they are key to ensuring opera is enjoyed somewhat as intended (ie with the audience understanding the story). Mind you, I have a very limited knowledge of what most of the operas I love are all about so I'm a fine one to talk


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

I am a big fan of the Chandos opera in English cd series. There are some wonderful translations out there. It works better for some opera and not others. rigoletto, boheme, barbiere all are great in translation.

I would not hesitate to listen to opera in English.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Pip said:


> Well, I saw Evans sing it 3 times between 1968 and 1978 and by that time it had become a caricature. I have the first broadcast from 1961 at CG and he is not much different. Lets's face it , he played the role for laughs as he did with most of his roles. I'm not decrying that, but I think that there is more to the role than just "the laughs". Evans had become the darling at CG and his Falstaff became revered, but not by me. Nor his Beckmesser either.


But of course you enjoy standing alone,don't you !


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I find that the formal recit-and-aria style of Italian baroque opera works quite well in English. There are usually few words in the arias themselves, and thoughts are usually succinctly articulated. Under those circumstances, it's arguably easier to fashion a good, singable translation than it is from (say) Mozart/Da Ponte onwards. The recitative stayed broadly the same, but post-Figaro the arias get a little bit more "wordy", and musically more complex; harder to translate, and harder to avoid those dreaded "filler syllables" like "now", "sir" and "ma'am" which, whilst necessary to preserve the rhythm, sound totally lame when sung.


Kind of what I was thinking too. With the baroque _da capo_ style, where the same two lines are repeated over and over, the words almost lose their meaning and become abstract sounds.

I'm not a fan of opera in English, but can put up with it once in a great while as a reminder of the intended immediacy of the experience. I think it works best for comic works or less known works where people aren't as familiar with the original and less inclined to "do the homework".


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Today , in the major international opera houses, with their international casts constantly coming and going,
it's just not practical to do operas in translation . You can't expect Italian or French singers to re learn
their roles in English or German etc . 
With supertitles and Met titles , and the easy availability of complete operas on CD with translations in the booklets ,
as well as DVDs with subtitles, doing operas in translation is pretty much unnecessary now .
Also, if the diction of the singers doing translated operas is not clear , you might as well be doing it in the original .


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## AegnorWildcat (Sep 4, 2013)

I've performed The Magic Flute (as Tamino) in English. It was a small production on a shoestring budget. Supertitles just weren't feasible. Original language is always best, if you've got supertitles. But understanding the text trumps all. So I'd say it falls out like this:

Original language + supertitles > translation > Original language + translation in booklet > Original language only


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

A lovely story about the early days of Covent Garden after the War. David Webster the general manager wanted two top stars to sing in the Walküre production in 1947 - Hans Hotter and Kirsten Flagstad. He approached Hotter explaining that he would have to relearn the role in english, stating that Flagstad had already agreed. Naturally Hotter, the great gentleman that he was, agreed.
Webster then approached Flagstad with the same ruse, and Flagstad replied that if Hans could do it then so would she.
Once they arrived for rehearsals, they realized that Webster had "conned" them both.
They went on heroically, but their singing english was so bad that Wagner's Ring and Tristan and Parsifal were subsequently sung in german.
However, the Covent Garden company continued sing most operas in english until the late 50s and even beyond for certain operas, like Strauss's The Silent Woman in 1961. They were still singing Wozzeck in english in the 70s - that opera works extraordinarily well in english.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I am not sure I have actually seen an opera live in English that wasn't written in English. It tends to be a point against for me but it is not a dealbreaker.

I did just watch Kenneth Branagh's _The Magic Flute_ which is in English with a translation/adaptation by Stephen Fry and Branagh and for one thing I often still wished for subtitles (_Powder Her Face_ and _Written On Skin_ come to mind as English operas where I wished/needed English subtitles).

I can see the point about humor working better in the language of the audience (and am often annoyed when people laugh in the wrong place) but I also tend to not be big on comedies. Which I guess is in part because they don't work as well around translations (humor is also very culturally dependent).


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

I don't know how I've managed all these years because I can think of nothing worse than Englsh translations,particularly French opera but Italian also.
I suppose it means that I along with others had to make an effort to find out what it was all about.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Interesting that Karajan caused quite a stir when he took over in Vienna by insisting that operas were sung in the original language not in German translation. 

As for me if I see an opera on the stage I do prefer English as I think understanding is important. After all, it is a drama! If I am listening via media and a translation is readily available, then in the original language as the rhythm of the words go better with the music.

Verdi sounds better in Italian, especially his name. Giuseppe Verdi sounds better than Joe Green!


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

I am strongly opposed to operas being sung in anything except their original language, but if it was an English production of a seldom performed opera, it wouldn't stop me from going.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Operas are composed to a specific libretto in a specific language.

That's the only way they should be performed.

Every time I read something about the English National Opera, this is the urge I get: http://www.artstormfineart.com/Fox/Simpsons/SG24XL.jpg


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Cavaradossi said:


> Kind of what I was thinking too. With the baroque _da capo_ style, where the same two lines are repeated over and over, the words almost lose their meaning and become abstract sounds.


What? How?

__________________________________________________________


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

I've seen a handful of operas translated into English. Tosca, Faust and Parsifal (Rigoletto next year). All at ENO. It just doesn't work for me. 

First, I tend to cringe at how derivative the text sounds when translated into English. It somehow doesn't matter when I just read the surtitles, cause what enters my ears is still beautiful and, well, foreign. I tend to focus more on the melody and vocal rather than the actual text anyway. If I know the opera well enough I don't look at the surtitles at all. I can listen to pieces by Händel, Finzi, Vaughan-Williams etc - because it was originally written in English and then - overall - doesn't sound (as) cringe-worthy. 

Second, it always surprises me how many English speaking individuals can't sing English in a way that's actually understandable. When I saw Tosca (at the RAH where no surtitles were provided) I had absolutely no idea what was being sung at all. I enjoyed the melodies and all that, but as far as the words... no. At ENO I've always found myself looking at the surtitles as well to follow what's being sung. HOW difficult is it to sing in your own bloody language? Really?


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Operafocus said:


> I've seen a handful of operas translated into English. Tosca, Faust and Parsifal (Rigoletto next year). All at ENO. It just doesn't work for me.
> 
> First, I tend to cringe at how derivative the text sounds when translated into English. It somehow doesn't matter when I just read the surtitles, cause what enters my ears is still beautiful and, well, foreign. I tend to focus more on the melody and vocal rather than the actual text anyway. If I know the opera well enough I don't look at the surtitles at all. I can listen to pieces by Händel, Finzi, Vaughan-Williams etc - because it was originally written in English and then - overall - doesn't sound (as) cringe-worthy.
> 
> Second, it always surprises me how many English speaking individuals can't sing English in a way that's actually understandable. When I saw Tosca (at the RAH where no surtitles were provided) I had absolutely no idea what was being sung at all. I enjoyed the melodies and all that, but as far as the words... no. At ENO I've always found myself looking at the surtitles as well to follow what's being sung. HOW difficult is it to sing in your own bloody language? Really?


I think the problem is (at least) two fold.
- English, by its design, is not a very good language for classical singing. More diphthongs and tripthongs than most other languages, more consonants than Italian and French, and those two languages by and large go to great lengths to create smooth transitions between words so that a smooth flow is not interrupted. French, for example, makes most ending consonants silent unless it is needed to transition between a final and initial vowel sound, and will even insert sounds as needed to this purpose (consider "y a-t-il" -- the 't' is completely meaningless in content and technically has no purpose in being there. But you'll never hear "y a'il")
Indeed, English has some very ugly vowel sounds. "I" is pronounced almost singularly in English -- virtually all other European languages pronounce it as Eee. It's a very awkward diphthong; 'I' has no inherent sound, you can't sing the sound of I, cause it's just Ahhh transitioning to Eee. So if you have to sing and hold a note on the word I in english, you're left with two unfortunate and rather less than intelligible options. The (primarily American) a as in cat is truly ugly as well. Singing that with projected voice sounds like a goat bleating. British english is a bit ahead here as words like bath, flat, path, and such are pronounced with an A that an American would say in army and is a much softer, rounded sound.

So even for a native English speaker singing English, it becomes a problem (when singing with projected, classical voice at least. I've read articles that suggest English lends itself more to a crooning style of singing ala Sinatra, Elvis, and the inevitable transition to rock. One might speculate that this is why rock music (and before it, lounge / popular music) has ascended at roughly the same rate as English has become the lingua franca of the world.

The other issue is, of course, the quality of translation. An incredibly fascinating book that I have recommended in the past and will surely recommend in the future is *Le Ton Beau de Marot* by Douglas Hofstadter. Despite the title, it's written in English and is ostensibly concerned about the art of translation in general and, more specifically, the translation of a cute trifle of an old French poem. And if such a description sounds boring, it's only because you're not familiar with Douglas Hofstadter (best known for his Pulitzer winning *Godel, Escher, Bach*). Denotation vs. connotation vs. meter vs. ineffable, inherent 'poetry' all must be considered -- a straight gloss destroys whatever art there is in the language initially. Add to that the challenges inherent if one wished to avoid ugly vowels in an English translation and maintaining some kind of linguistical flow, and translation in general, and into English specifically, is an almost impossible task, especially for the poor translator who is likely someone hired for a minimal amount of money or concern for resultant quality.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

I've just read sections of an English translation for performance of L'Incoronazione di Poppea. For a long time now I've understood enough Italian and have been well enough acquainted with the Italian language operas that I love, including that one, not to have to listen to _pur ti miro, pur ti godo _in English. Translating from one romance language to another may work well enough in many passages, but Italian into English, imo, does not work as well.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

For what it's worth (I'm afraid I can't lay my hands on the quore right now) Wagner was said to be very amenable to the suggestion of his operas performed in different languages.

As a very regular attender of ENO for 15 years during my time living nearby, I seldom had a problem with opera in English. My first ever opera visit was to ENO to see The Barber of Seville. (I didn't know it at the time, but it changed my life.) Where operas are familiar to me and have big well-known tunes, singing in English isn't ideal, but experiencing the major works of, for example, Janacek in English feels perfectly fine. Of course having the production standards and orchestra of ENO is a big factor here. Handel's operas always seemed to be pleasure at ENO, likewise Prokofiev, and works like Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk were terrific.

So in summary, it's not a problem for me, I'll take any opera I can get. I've also witnessed many times the immediacy and involvement an audience can have when they can understand the words directly from a singer's mouth.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I don't mind German operas, especially "Singspiels" like _Fidelio_ or _Die Zauberfloete_, in English (I've heard the latter), though given a choice I'd rather hear them in the original German. I only like French or Italian opera in English if the translation used "sits" perfectly on the music -- and even then I probably wouldn't pay money to hear such a performance in the theater. On recordings I do enjoy the Chandos "Opera in English" _Lucia di Lammermoor_, because the translation used is, in my opinion, just right and the opera is set in Scotland anyway. But in general, Italian opera in English sounds wrong to me; the language just doesn't fit the "flavor" of the music.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Alexander said:


> For what it's worth (I'm afraid I can't lay my hands on the quore right now) Wagner was said to be very amenable to the suggestion of his operas performed in different languages.
> 
> As a very regular attender of ENO for 15 years during my time living nearby, I seldom had a problem with opera in English. My first ever opera visit was to ENO to see The Barber of Seville. (I didn't know it at the time, but it changed my life.) Where operas are familiar to me and have big well-known tunes, singing in English isn't ideal, but experiencing the major works of, for example, Janacek in English feels perfectly fine. Of course having the production standards and orchestra of ENO is a big factor here. Handel's operas always seemed to be pleasure at ENO, likewise Prokofiev, and works like Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk were terrific.
> 
> So in summary, it's not a problem for me, I'll take any opera I can get. I've also witnessed many times the immediacy and involvement an audience can have when they can understand the words directly from a singer's mouth.


The times I visited the ENO I had no problem understanding the English. From what I hear of some of the productions there now, however, I might have a problem tying in what is sung to what is going on on the stage!


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

What I'd like to see tried (maybe it has) is the _Sing_ in the original and the _Spiel_ in English. That's the best of both worlds for me. Would love to see Fidelio this way.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

One of the frequent complaints I hear about opera are the languages. I guess that opera does require a certain level of familiarity to be enjoyed, be it from listening to the music/reading the libretto etc.
New operas are a challenge because that material may not be available.

This makes it hard for the casual "theatre-goer" who wants to give opera a try. If it _was _in their native language, would it be as approachable as a musical?

I don't know. Whilst some operas are in English, I'm not certain that it is widely known outside of opera-circles.

Of course, everyone here has managed just fine with foreign librettos - so what's the problem?
Perhaps, opera lovers in cities like New York or London may notice a problem but the rest of are bleeding profusely. Opera companies everywhere are shutting down or reducing their programmes. 
It's a sorry state-of-affairs when opera companies need to produce musicals like _Grease_ to fund their next opera.

I find English translations awkward to listen to but I don't know if it's because it was done poorly or because I am so used to the original language - or both. I dare say that such a translation can be done well so long as the phrasings etc. and not a literal translation is the priority.

The purists won't like but the purists are becoming too few.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

I've just had one of those "hallelujah" moments re: opera translated into English. Conclusion is, when it sounds like this, I _really _don't mind at all. I actually really like it:


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Operafocus said:


> I've just had one of those "hallelujah" moments re: opera translated into English. Conclusion is, when it sounds like this, I _really _don't mind at all. I actually really like it:


Peter would eventually sing Rigoletto at the home of Verdi at the Parma Opera and La Scala. The first Englishman to do this. With huge success.
He was a tremendous Verdi baritone, not to mention a great Billy Budd amongst his many roles. Would that we had his like today.

His recording career never really matched his success on the stages of the world, probably because his name needed to be Pietro Golossopo for the record companies.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I can never understand the English anyway.
So may as well listen to the original.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


> I can never understand the English anyway.
> So may as well listen to the original.


And herein lies the problem. Someone I interviewed once (who does a lot of translated operas) said, "I don't get it, exactly *how *difficult is it to make yourself understood in _your own language_?"


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Operafocus said:


> And herein lies the problem. Someone I interviewed once (who does a lot of translated operas) said, "I don't get it, exactly *how *difficult is it to make yourself understood in _your own language_?"


It also has something to do with diction and volume. One of the clearest examples of singing in english was John Rawnsley as Rigoletto in the Miller "50s New York" production in the early 80's. 
Alberto Remedios was another who had very clear diction while singing the forest scene in Siegfried and in The Valkyrie he also excelled at making the words understood. However, both singers became much less clear when singing at louder levels.
Some singers are notorious at having terribly unclear diction, EG Kiri Te Kanawa - fantastic voice - but unless one had the libretto open as she sang, she was incomprehensible.
I find Peter Glossop's diction very clear in that English "Cortigiani".
He was equally clear when singing in Italian.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

Agreed, Peter Glossop has beautiful diction. 

Sir John Tomlinson also has pretty impeccable diction. 

Oh, and Mario Lanza. In whatever language he sang in, you can always hear what he's singing.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Operafocus said:


> Agreed, Peter Glossop has beautiful diction.
> 
> Sir John Tomlinson also has pretty impeccable diction.
> 
> Oh, and Mario Lanza. In whatever language he sang in, you can always hear what he's singing.


I agree with you about JT and of course Lanza. Once he went to Hollywood his diction had to be good otherwise his movies would never have had the success they did.
Tibbett also had fabulous diction - from singing all the Spirituals and appearing in so many different radio programmes in the 30s and 40s, he had to be good at it otherwise they would have dropped him.
I am sure that is why American singers of that era seem to have had the edge on singing with clear diction - the very lucrative Radio work.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Slightly OT because it's French, but Roberto Alagna has the most amazing diction in French. I'm not wild about his voice but I just love to hear him in things like Carmen and Le Cid.


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