# Best Brucknerian Conductors



## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Whom do you consider to be the best Brucknerian conductor? There are some remarkable ones like Jochum, Wand, Celibidache, Karajan, Furtwangler and so many others. 

But recently I got a CD package with all Bruckner symphonies with Simone Young conducting. It is stunning. I think this may be the best interpretation for Symphony 4 and, maybe, Symphony 8 I have ever heard. 

Any other suggestions?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Nevum, our member Granate have several threads made about Bruckner, perhaps that helps

http://www.talkclassical.com/search.php?searchid=2801076


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

there is only one brucknerian conductor for me - Celibidache. Full stop. and the rest with their long lines/phrases, trying to "connect" what should not be connected are just ordinary conductors. Celi is an exceptional :angel:


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

C E L I B I D A C H E
E 
L
I
B
I
D
A
C
H
E

The absolute best. Celibidache Bruckner 4 Munich Phil is probably my 2nd favorite recording of all time. Celibidache's conducting "philosophy" pairs so well with Bruckner. At a distant second for me would be Barenboim. He has the right idea about Bruckner, too.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

dzc4627 said:


> C E L I B I D A C H E
> E
> L
> I
> ...


it's nice to see another Celi's fan on this forum!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Celi bores me stiff. Karajan, Jochum or Wand.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Ha ha ha ha ha
Please let me finish all the rounds! Glad you ask. For the moment, I am with you with Young. I want to buy that set as soon as it gets cheaper. She is superb with those symphonies that have very few recorded first versions (00,0,1,2,3,4 and 8), but unfortunately not so bold with the others. The Philharmoniker Hamburg brings boldness to the scores.
Karajan is also being ratified as a great Brucknerian, and Celibidache is superb but only inside his own style and when the symphony does not require a monstruous length (6 and 7, maybe 8).
Jochum for DG is another set that shines over many other 'crowd' conductors. Knappertsbusch was more Wagnerian than with Bruckner and his recordings are mainly mono.
Not a fan of Wand with the Kölner. No flavour. 
And Venzago is also an interesting listening. He has earned it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Eugen Jochum is one of the best.

Carlo Maria Giulini too.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Carlo Maria Giulini too.


Too bad he recorded that little.



Pugg said:


> Nevum, our member Granate have several threads made about Bruckner, perhaps that helps
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/search.php?searchid=2800933


Not working link. Try to search "Granate" and "Bruckner " in Orchestral Music where I am posting all the results.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Granate said:


> Ha ha ha ha ha
> Please let me finish all the rounds! Glad you ask. For the moment, I am with you with Young. I want to buy that set as soon as it gets cheaper. She is superb with those symphonies that have very few recorded first versions (00,0,1,2,3,4 and 8), but unfortunately not so bold with the others. The Philharmoniker Hamburg brings boldness to the scores.
> Karajan is also being ratified as a great Brucknerian, and Celibidache is superb but only inside his own style and when the symphony does not require a monstruous length (6 and 7, maybe 8).
> Jochum for DG is another set that shines over many other 'crowd' conductors. Knappertsbusch was more Wagnerian than with Bruckner and his recordings are mainly mono.
> ...


I did put your thorough reviews in my first answer, hope you don't mind?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Nevum said:


> Whom do you consider to be the best Brucknerian conductor?


Solti
von Matacic
Walter
Barenboim [earlier CSO set]


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Granate said:


> Too bad he recorded that little.
> 
> Not working link. Try to search "Granate" and "Bruckner " in Orchestral Music where I am posting all the results.


Have you heard Giulini's Bruckner 9th with the Vienna Philharmonic? A terrific performance. All Brucknerians should hear that one.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Have you heard Giulini's Bruckner 9th with the Vienna Philharmonic? A terrific performance. All Brucknerians should hear that one.


Giulini's B#9 with CSO [EMI] is also very fine...


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Tintner, Klemperer, Abbado, Haitink.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> Not working link. Try to search "Granate" and "Bruckner " in Orchestral Music where I am posting all the results.


Must be working now.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

dzc4627 said:


> C E L I B I D A C H E
> E
> L
> I
> ...


Celibidache is great, although a touch slow for Bruckner in my opinion. Despite that, I thought he had the best performance of Symphony 4 ever. Until I listened to Simone Young. Very close call.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Have you heard Giulini's Bruckner 9th with the Vienna Philharmonic? A terrific performance. All Brucknerians should hear that one.


Of course I did. Like a year ago. *For now* it is my favourite. I hope that next BC time it is not a flop as Karajan's WPO No.7 was.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Nevum said:


> Celibidache is great, although a touch slow for Bruckner in my opinion. Despite that, I thought he had the best performance of Symphony 4 ever. Until I listened to Simone Young. Very close call.


From my Bruckner challenge:









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.4 in E flat major (1874 First Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Simone Young, HPO, Oehms (2007)*

_The recording is as monumental and perfect as the Young set is showing. The small issue is to confront with a the first score version of the symphony, less regular, less repetitive but a little bewildering. The Bewegt and Andante are phenomenal anyways._
*B-*









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.4 in E flat major (1881 Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Sergiu Celibidache, MPO, WC (1988/2011 Issue Edition)*

_A near-perfect recording that becomes excellent in the epic Bewegt and Finale thanks to the slowness and volume. One wishes the Andante and Scherzo reached the same level but they refuse to help._
*B-*


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Jochum, Klemperer, HvK, Haitink, Schuricht. :tiphat:


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

I don't know about best, only those whose Bruckner I enjoy most (not necessarily in order of preference): Knappertsbusch,Klemperer,Jochum,Van Beinum,Schuricht,Giulini....and I need to spend some time listening to Celibidache.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

I second the series by Simone Young. I have been very impressed so far (not quite heard them all yet). Other Bruckner conductors I enjoy:
Herbert Blomstedt
Bernard Haitink
Eugen Jochum
Donald Runnicles
Stanisław Skrowaczewski
Georg Szell
Georg Tintner
Günter Wand

I can't go near Celibidache - his funereal performances strike me as self-indulgent and unmusical. I really don't 'get' what people hear in him.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

What do you guys think of Solti? I just bought the complete Solti Bruckner set, and it will be my first Bruckner set (I own Karajan 7 & 8 as well, though).


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As noted in another post elsewhere, I could not tolerate Celi's B7, I got a few minutes into the second movement before I decided that was enough. I am in no hurry to check out any of his other recordings.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Tristan said:


> What do you guys think of Solti? I just bought the complete Solti Bruckner set,


Great, for me, the best Bruckner conductor overall....I love his approach, makes it hang together [can be a problem with Anton].....great long phrases and and buildup to roof-raising climaxes - superb orchestral execution and sonority [CSO]


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## msr13 (Jan 7, 2017)

Granate said:


> From my Bruckner challenge:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Her 8th is magnificent.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Klemperer, Barbirolli, Giulini

There is an amusing story about Barbirolli re Bruckner. He was flying into Houston with Andre Previn when the plane encountered some very serious turbulence. Barbirolli: "I can't die yet, I haven't done all the Bruckner symphonies!"


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

msr13 said:


> Her 8th is magnificent.


She is really amazing. I have all the CD collections of Bruckner by Barenboim, Jochum, Wand and Furtwangler and have listened to them several times. When I got Simone Young, I was really surprised on how good she is. She may be the best among this group with Jochum a (very close) second. Wand is also amazing.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Heck148 said:


> Great, for me, the best Bruckner conductor overall....I love his approach, makes it hang together [can be a problem with Anton].....great long phrases and and buildup to roof-raising climaxes - superb orchestral execution and sonority [CSO]


I am so glad I am not the only one who likes Solti.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

If I could choose only 3 they would be Celibidache, Jochum, and Karajan.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Becca said:


> As noted in another post elsewhere, I could not tolerate Celi's B7, I got a few minutes into the second movement before I decided that was enough. I am in no hurry to check out any of his other recordings.


To those interested about giving a try to Celibidache, do not go with the No.7 because all his versions are too slow for the symphony. Have a listen to No.4 and No.5 with WC. Those ones are also contemplative but appropiate.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Granate said:


> To those interested about giving a try to Celibidache, do not go with the No.7 because all his versions are too slow for the symphony. Have a listen to No.4 and No.5 with WC. Those ones are also contemplative but appropiate.


I think 4 is his best. For the rest of the symphonies, his style is too slow in my opinion.


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

Nevum said:


> Celibidache is great, although a touch slow for Bruckner in my opinion. Despite that, I thought he had the best performance of Symphony 4 ever. Until I listened to Simone Young. Very close call.


I will try it! Does she take the coda at the godly horizon tempo that Celi does?


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Tristan said:


> What do you guys think of Solti? I just bought the complete Solti Bruckner set, and it will be my first Bruckner set (I own Karajan 7 & 8 as well, though).


Solti? One of the most overrated conductors of the 20th century.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Takashi Asahina's Bruckner recordings are hard to come by in the West, but they're absolutely splendid. If you're a Bruckner fan you need to track them down.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I would not consider myself a Bruckner expert but have enjoyed the Gunter Wand performances


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Lorin Maazel


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I haven't listened to a great many Bruckner conductors - I've enjoyed Skrowaczewski, Karajan, Barenboim, and a few others - but when I heard Furtwangler do the 8th I felt that all Bruckner's secrets were revealed to me. Furt could do that with Wagner and Brahms too.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I haven't listened to a great many Bruckner conductors - I've enjoyed Skrowaczewski, Karajan, Barenboim, and a few others - but when I heard Furtwangler do the 8th I felt that all Bruckner's secrets were revealed to me. Furt could do that with Wagner and Brahms too.


Furtwangler is a whole different ball game. His performances were, of course, superb. But hard to know if he was interpreting Bruckner or simply modifying Brukner. Same with Brahms. Hearing Brahms from Furtwangler is a great experience, like hearing the music of a fantastic new composer! Not necessarily Brahms.


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## padraic (Feb 26, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Have you heard Giulini's Bruckner 9th with the Vienna Philharmonic? A terrific performance. All Brucknerians should hear that one.


Yes that's the gold standard for me.


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## padraic (Feb 26, 2015)

Based on this thread I'm giving Simone Young some more listens and I'm very glad I have done so.

Currently I'm listening to the Adagio of the 6th and she does this wonderfully.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Haydn man said:


> I would not consider myself a Bruckner expert but have enjoyed the Gunter Wand performances


he is great.......................


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

padraic said:


> Based on this thread I'm giving Simone Young some more listens and I'm very glad I have done so.
> 
> Currently I'm listening to the Adagio of the 6th and she does this wonderfully.


her performance of the 4th and the 8th are unbelievably good. She is amazing.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Celibidache.
Then the rest.
Karajan's OK, what of it I've heard, and at least he does use Haas in the 8th (minus point for Celi there).
I'm sorry, but I own the Jochum DG set (for over 20 years) and it's basically there now for 1 & 2. To my ears he identifies the 'boring bits' then thinks by speeding up he can make them more interesting. Wrong, wrong, wrong... I honestly don't know why he gets so much acclaim. Having a second shot at the whole cycle suggets he didn't know what he was doing first time round. In which case, what to make of Barenboim, I wonder!
Maybe I'll try Young. I thought I heard her conduct a very good 9 here in Sydney a few years ago.
cheers,
Graeme


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Delicious Manager said:


> Solti? One of the most overrated conductors of the 20th century.


Get it all of your chest, other people may have other views.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

GraemeG said:


> Celibidache.
> Then the rest.
> Karajan's OK, what of it I've heard, and at least he does use Haas in the 8th (minus point for Celi there).
> I'm sorry, but I own the Jochum DG set (for over 20 years) and it's basically there now for 1 & 2. To my ears he identifies the 'boring bits' then thinks by speeding up he can make them more interesting. Wrong, wrong, wrong... I honestly don't know why he gets so much acclaim. Having a second shot at the whole cycle suggets he didn't know what he was doing first time round. In which case, what to make of Barenboim, I wonder!
> ...


Not sure I agree about Jochum. I have the whole set of Jochum and I think it is one of the best Brucknerian performances of all times. Do an experiment. If you have the Barenboim collection of Bruckner symphonies, listen to that first and then Jochum and you will sense the difference. Barenboim is very good. Jochum is superb.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Delicious Manager said:


> Solti? One of the most overrated conductors of the 20th century.


Really? How so?


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

*Furtwängler doubt*



Woodduck said:


> ... when I heard Furtwangler do the 8th I felt that all Bruckner's secrets were revealed to me. Furt could do that with Wagner and Brahms too.


Which one do you talk about? Are they the 1949 performances with the Berliner Philharmoniker?
And is it the March 14th EMI/Testament recording or the March 15th Live performance for RIAS?

I have listened to the 1944 Wiener Philharmoniker DG recording with disappointment, but not those two.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Karajan and Klemperer top my list, but I admit to not having heard too many others.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

GraemeG said:


> I'm sorry, but I own the Jochum DG set (for over 20 years) and it's basically there now for 1 & 2. To my ears he identifies the 'boring bits' then thinks by speeding up he can make them more interesting. Wrong, wrong, wrong... I honestly don't know why he gets so much acclaim.


It's all subjective....I don't have much reason to like Furtwangler. At least, up to this point.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Granate said:


> From my Bruckner challenge:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I recently found this entire set on the EMI label---10 discs---of Celibidache's Bruckner in a thrift shop in excellent condition for $1.00 apiece, so I can start listening to them at my own time.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Haydn67 said:


> I recently found this entire set on the EMI label---10 discs---of Celibidache's Bruckner in a thrift shop in excellent condition for $1.00 apiece, so I can start listening to them at my own time.


It may take you a real long time to listen to all of them. Celibidache is sssslllloooowwww.......very sssslllloooowwww


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Nevum said:


> It may take you a real long time to listen to all of them. Celibidache is sssslllloooowwww.......very sssslllloooowwww


Yes, I'm anticipating a ssssslllllllooooooooooooow process.  Unless, that is, I reach my limit with him fairly quickly.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Haydn67 said:


> Yes, I'm anticipating a ssssslllllllooooooooooooow process.  Unless, that is, I reach my limit with him fairly quickly.


I am listening to the the CD collection of Bruckner symphonies by Furtwangler this moment. It is the opposite of Celibidache. Very fast. Fast and amazing.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Nevum said:


> I am listening to the the CD collection of Bruckner symphonies by Furtwangler this moment. It is the opposite of Celibidache. Very fast. Fast and amazing.


You mean the Andromeda release? The sound is unbearably dodgy! Remasterings by Testament and Audite are brilliant.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Nevum said:


> I am listening to the the CD collection of Bruckner symphonies by Furtwangler this moment. It is the opposite of Celibidache. Very fast. Fast and amazing.


Well, maybe it's time I took the LP vinyl set I have below, and gave Furtwangler's Bruckner 4,7,8 and 9 with the Berlin and Vienna Philharmonic Orchestras on DG a re-listen.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Haydn67 said:


> Well, maybe it's time I took the LP vinyl set I have below, and gave *Furtwangler's Bruckner* 4,7,8 and 9 with the Berlin and Vienna Philharmonic Orchestras on *DG* a re-listen.


These ones have better tapes, unfortunately I don't find the definitive performances of Bruckner by Furtwängler in that box.

So then are you going to compare Celibidache and Furtwängler with Bruckner? Good luck!


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Granate said:


> These ones have better tapes, unfortunately I don't find the definitive performances of Bruckner by Furtwängler in that box.
> 
> So then are you going to compare Celibidache and Furtwängler with Bruckner? Good luck!


No. I'll listen to Furtwangler to see if any of my feelings toward him have changed. One problem I've long had with his conducting is his frequent tendency(speaking for myself only)to pause too long in areas and draw out already slow passages and make them even slower. I've heard this in a number of instances with his Brahms Symphonies too.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Granate said:


> You mean the Andromeda release? The sound is unbearably dodgy! Remasterings by Testament and Audite are brilliant.


Yes, the Andromeda release. You are right the sound is not good quality. But there is still a brilliant, like absolutely brilliant, interpretation of the 8th by Furtwangler.....


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Granate said:


> These ones have better tapes, unfortunately I don't find the definitive performances of Bruckner by Furtwängler in that box.
> 
> So then are you going to compare Celibidache and Furtwängler with Bruckner? Good luck!


I am comparing Simone Young to Furtwangler..... I am close to concluding that the 2 best Brucknerian conductors of all times are Simone Young and Jochum.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Nevum said:


> I am comparing Simone Young to Furtwangler..... I am close to concluding that the 2 best Brucknerian conductors of all times are Simone Young and Jochum.


Now Jochum is a conductor whose Brahms and Bruckner I have always enjoyed very much.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Delicious Manager said:


> Solti? One of the most overrated conductors of the 20th century.


Nonsense...Solti = great conductor, one of the greatest of all.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Haydn67 said:


> ....One problem I've long had with his conducting is his frequent tendency(speaking for myself only)to pause too long in areas and draw out already slow passages and make them even slower. I've heard this in a number of instances with his Brahms Symphonies too.


Agreed - the constant taffy-pulling, and resulting loss of tension and flow, are to me, quite distracting...also there is often a rhythmic sloppiness that results, an lack of precision. I know Furtwangler had his reasons, his rationale, behind this approach, but it really doesn't work for me. I'm not convinced.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Best overall Bruckner conductors, I really couldn't tell you. What I do know is that Giulini's recording of Bruckner's 9th with the Vienna Philharmonic is among my very favorite recordings of any composer.

There are only a handful of works where I closely tie the work itself with the recording; Carlos Kleiber's Brahms 4th, Herbert von Karajan's Brahms 1st, Bruno Walter's Beethoven 6th, Maurizio Pollini's late Beethoven piano sonatas, and Carlo Maria Giulini's Bruckner 9th.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

It is impossible for me to choose the best-fit conductor. But I enjoy Bruckner symphonies conducted by Haitink, Wand, Giulini most. Others like HvK, Boehm, van Beinum, Barenboim, von Matacic and Jochum also have several good recordings.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I notice the consistent praise for the Simone Young performances through this thread.
I shall endeavour to explore this cycle


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

The recent zweden cycle has got zero love in this thread but probably has the best sound quality and some excellent performances.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01I...r+9+zweden&dpPl=1&dpID=51IIzVTwWCL&ref=plSrch


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Just listened back to back Symphony 3 of Bruckner by Barenboim, Jochum and Simone Young. Simone Young is the most "Brucknerian". Clearly my favorite.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I have to say, that with Bruckner, and Wagner, I tend to prefer non-teutonic conductors in this music...

for Bruckner - my favorites are Solti, Matacic, Barenboim, Walter [ok, an exception ], Giulini - 
for me, and I realize that categorical statements are always a bit risky, the Germans simply get too ponderous, too heavy, too logy, as tho every harmonic half-note is imbued with some sort of cosmic significance. - the adjectives _stodgy, pedestrian_ come to mind...Solti, Matacic, Barenboim always bring out the ebb and flow, the drama, the rise and fall...

for Wagner - my favorite conductors are Reiner, Toscanini, Solti....Barenboim can be very good as well. the first three are outstanding. In Wagner, they unerringly bring forth the rise and fall of the drama, the pacing, the build-ups, let-downs, climaxes, relaxations...it's like having a great tour guide - you just sit back, lite, and let them take you thru it. All 3 were outstanding opera conductors, so this is really no surprise...


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## nightscape (Jun 22, 2013)

Surprised to see so much love for Celibidache. I attempted to listen to his Bruckner 6 and it bored me to death. Never made it past the first movement.

I've enjoyed Skrowaczewski and Karajan.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

nightscape said:


> Surprised to see so much love for Celibidache. I attempted to listen to his Bruckner 6 and it bored me to death. Never made it past the first movement.
> 
> I've enjoyed Skrowaczewski and Karajan.


The Celibidache funs believe that the very slow tempo "brings out" the beauty of Bruckners music. I dont think so, with one exception. The performance of the 4th symphony by Celibidache is great. The rest do not really reflect Bruckners spirit. Of course, many disagree.


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## nightscape (Jun 22, 2013)

The opening to the 6th is my benchmark. If you can't get that right, then you've lost my trust. It's a tricky balance not to be too fast or too slow. It shouldn't be too stately or too lugubrious.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

A sampling of the times for the first movement of some Bruckner 6th recordings. Unfortunately I couldn't find any by Celibidache etc. Maybe someone else can.

Barenboim / Berlin Phil. ......... 15.48
Wand / Cologne .................... 15.54
Skrowacewzki / Saarbrucken . 15.39
Haitink / Dresden .................. 15.57
Young / Hamburg ...................15.27
Gielen / SWR ........................17.07
Klemperer / Philharmonia .......16.56

It is worth noting that the Klemperer is considered by many to be a benchmark recording


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Well, the EMI recording of Celibidache's 6 is 17:02 according to the back cover, so a match with Klemperer. I also have the Sony/Tokyo DVDs of Celi's and listened to the 6th the other week. I think it's similar, or possibly even a little brisker.
GG


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Heck148 said:


> Nonsense...Solti = great conductor, one of the greatest of all.


Amen to this!!..................


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## david.allsopp (Jan 18, 2010)

Anyone heard Mario Venzago cycle. Very distinctive
Great Bruckner conductors - Marek Janowski and Stanislaw Skrowaczewski


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

M&A keeps remastering its Furtwängler Bruckner box (4,5, 7, 8, 9 and most of 6) to great effect. His performances rate at the very pinnacle for me. I've also enjoyed Jochum (complete EMI and some DG), Haitink (helped by the Concertgebouw) and Tintner.

What I've heard from Wand, Walter and Solti has also been worth the effort, but I need to dig deeper into their recordings. I have mixed reactions to the output of Barenboim, von Karajan and Celibidache and I didn't enjoy what I sampled of Knappertsbusch or Escenbach.


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## padraic (Feb 26, 2015)

Nevum said:


> The Celibidache funs believe that the very slow tempo "brings out" the beauty of Bruckners music. I dont think so, with one exception. The performance of the 4th symphony by Celibidache is great. The rest do not really reflect Bruckners spirit. Of course, many disagree.


I certainly do. Celi's approach doesn't always do it for me, but when it does, it is magical. The Sixth falls in this category, I find the first movement to indeed be "maestoso", as intended.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

padraic said:


> I certainly do. Celi's approach doesn't always do it for me, but when it does, it is magical. The Sixth falls in this category, I find the first movement to indeed be "maestoso", as intended.


I have to say that I am revising my opinion of Celibidache. I used to perceive him as "too slow" for Bruckner. I just go the CD collection with Celi performing Bruckner symphonies (and the TeDeum) and have been listening this weekend. He is so different because of the slow tempo than any other conductor, but the sound is wonderful. He is one of the best.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

By going slowly he is able to bring out all the notes and nuances of the music. Giulini's approach is similar, but a bit faster, and he only recorded 2 and 7-9, all with excellent sonics.


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## Chatellerault (Apr 4, 2017)

I was thinking lately about some conducters associated with Bruckner's symphonies: Wand, Jochum, Celibidache, Harnoncourt... Let's call them team B.
While other famous names have a deeper connection to Mahler: Mengelberg, Bernstein and, more recently, Gergiev, Tilson-Thomas and Dudamel. I'll call team M and ignore the ones (Karajan, Haitink...) who have often conducted and recorded both of them.

As far as I know Bruckner and Mahler have much in common: huge works that change from tutti to solo then tutti again... and the possibility of a mystical reading associated with faith and redemption. 

What do you guys think are the defining characteristics of a great Bruckner conductor (and orchestra)? What makes one join team B and not team M?


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

There's a true anecdote about someone perceiving similarities in Mahler and Bruckner and getting a funny response... unfortunately, I don't remember the names of the people involved. But it was something like this:

Non-German and German musician strolling in the Alps and talking about music.

Non-German musician: Mahler and Bruckner are so similar!
German musician: No! Look at zis - zis is Mahler:

(picks up a beautiful Alpine flower, an Edelweiss maybe)

(continuing) and zat - zat is Bruckner! (points to a nearby mountain summit)

As for Bruckner conductors... I think Furtwängler is the best. Most of the time, though, I listen to Karajan, Klemperer and Barenboim. Celibidache is the worst.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bruckner was a metaphysician. Mahler was an existentialist who longed to be a metaphysician, but too late.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Not a Bruckner fan but Eugen Jochum was very fine. So was Carlo Maria Giulini.


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

I haven't heard enough to make an opinion, but based on what I've heard (the 9th), I have to say - IMO, Celibidache is overrated. The first and last movements of the 9th are played very slowly, which works, but the second is played in the same style, completely emasculating the movement famous for its intense, primal energy.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Bruckner was a metaphysician. Mahler was an existentialist who longed to be a metaphysician, but too late.


I like that one. I'm going to write it down.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2017)

Nevum said:


> I am comparing Simone Young to Furtwangler..... I am close to concluding that the 2 best Brucknerian conductors of all times are Simone Young and Jochum.


I saw her conduct Bruckner 9 last year as well as a chunk of music from Parsifal. Probably my favourite conductor for any repertoire like this. Awe-inspiring and powerful.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Manxfeeder said:


> I like that one. I'm going to write it down.


It's public domain now. Just remember me fondly when you pretend you made it up.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Bruckner was a metaphysician. Mahler was an existentialist who longed to be a metaphysician, but too late.


He never met a physician he didn't like


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mathisdermaler said:


> I haven't heard enough to make an opinion, but based on what I've heard (the 9th), I have to say - IMO, Celibidache is overrated. The first and last movements of the 9th are played very slowly, which works, but the second is played in the same style, completely emasculating the movement famous for its intense, primal energy.


That's one area (among many) in which Furtwangler stands out. Bruckner may have been a conscientious Catholic, but he was also a man of flesh and blood who adored Wagner, pagan high priest of uncensored, primal passions. His symphonies are Romantic music, not cold stone cathedrals in sound or religious rites.

After that furious scherzo, Furtwangler opens out the third movement of the 9th in an arc of intense yearning that bridges Wagner and Mahler, and proceeds to probe to its depths every emotion in the music, showing us the soul of a man - Bruckner's? Furtwangler's? Ours? - laid bare in its faith and in its terror. Furtwangler's isn't the only way to conduct this music, but in its visceral power and the fullness of its humanity it is, like so much of what he did on the podium, incomparable.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> That's one area (among many) in which Furtwangler stands out. Bruckner *may have been a conscientious Catholic, but he was also a man of flesh and blood* who adored Wagner, pagan high priest of uncensored, *primal passions*. His symphonies are Romantic music, not cold stone cathedrals in sound or religious rites.


I was just catching up a bit in the "What's New" listing, and I saw this... Just because someone is a conscientious Catholic or Protestant does mean that s/he is not a person of flesh and blood who delights in the flesh and the rest of the wonders of nature! Just thinking about the implications of a belief in the Incarnation should make that clear.

Sigh


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Eugen Jochum is one of the best.
> 
> Carlo Maria Giulini too.


Jochum has recorded all the Symphonies several times over, but Critics hold him in low regard. Re listening to some of his recordings recently led me to understand why: to much rubato, to episodic in the approach. One gets seasick from all the gear shifting and the big climaxes are diminished by the little climaxes along the way. I had to play Furtwangler in the 8th afterwards to cleanse the ears


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Does the Furtwangler wax cleaning work? Have you tried the Celibidache brand?



Triplets said:


> Jochum has recorded all the Symphonies several times over, but Critics hold him in low regard. Re listening to some of his recordings recently led me to understand why: to much rubato, to episodic in the approach. One gets seasick from all the gear shifting and the big climaxes are diminished by the little climaxes along the way. I had to play Furtwangler in the 8th afterwards to cleanse the ears


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Triplets said:


> Jochum has recorded all the Symphonies several times over, but Critics hold him in low regard. Re listening to some of his recordings recently led me to understand why: to much rubato, to episodic in the approach. One gets seasick from all the gear shifting and the big climaxes are diminished by the little climaxes along the way.......


That is a problem with Bruckner - it can be too episodic, too "chopped up"....it is a challenge for the conductor to preserve momentum, to connect the sections, so that it doesn't come off too segmented...I remember that as a feature of Jochum's Bruckner...too episodic.


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## Chatellerault (Apr 4, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Bruckner was a metaphysician. Mahler was an existentialist who longed to be a metaphysician, but too late.


I like that definition!

And then I wonder, should a Bruckner conductor be (at least a part-time) metaphysician? I've seen that kind of discussion about Bach's sacred music, but never about Romantic/Modern symphonies...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> I was just catching up a bit in the "What's New" listing, and I saw this... Just because someone is a conscientious Catholic or Protestant does mean that s/he is not a person of flesh and blood who delights in the flesh and the rest of the wonders of nature! Just thinking about the implications of a belief in the Incarnation should make that clear.
> 
> Sigh


Never fear. I know flesh and blood Catholics myself. Some of my best friends are flesh and blood Catholics.

There is, however, a tradition of asceticism in Christianity gong all the way back to the time of its founding, a tradition with some support in the very words of Jesus and certainly of Paul. Then there's the requirement of celibacy for Catholic priests (we know how well that works in practice ), and, last but not least, the sexual neurosis of western civilization, to be laid directly at the feet of Christianity, that still has our governments policing private behavior and that wreaks havoc in the lives of countless individuals. In light of all this, it's a bit remarkable to hear a lecture on how the Church delights in the flesh.

Bruckner has often been viewed as an otherworldly ascetic, and if you know his music well you know that it can be performed in such a way as to downplay its Romantic, emotional qualities. Those qualities can also be brought out, as Furtwangler shows.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

Heck148 said:


> That is a problem with Bruckner - it can be too episodic, too "chopped up"....it is a challenge for the conductor to preserve momentum, to connect the sections, so that it doesn't come off too segmented...I remember that as a feature of Jochum's Bruckner...too episodic.


The recordings he made late in his life with RCO (5), Bamberger (8), and MPO (9) are very different, and superb.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

I have recently listened to a few of Thielemann's Bruckner recordings. Nos. 5, 7 and 8 are outstanding, easily equal to the best, with SQ to match. 

Unfortunately the others are only on DVD or Blu-Ray, but I hope they will be issued as audio only.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

The absolute most essential set of Bruckner recordings out there:










Other great ones:


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

And:


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

You know how we sometimes - well, frequently - talk about a particular "conductor's/composer"? Such as Furtwangler's Beethoven or Bernstein's Mahler...and then somebody will say something such as "Well, for me, _this_ guy does Mahler's Mahler?"

Well, for _me_, whether I am right or wrong, when I'm thinking I just want Bruckner's Bruckner, my go-to guy is Stanislaw Skrowaczewski.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Totenfeier said:


> You know how we sometimes - well, frequently - talk about a particular "conductor's/composer"? Such as Furtwangler's Beethoven or Bernstein's Mahler...and then somebody will say something such as "Well, for me, _this_ guy does Mahler's Mahler?"
> 
> Well, for _me_, whether I am right or wrong, when I'm thinking I just want Bruckner's Bruckner, my go-to guy is Stanislaw Skrowaczewski.


I have his 7th. It's splendid.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

Kurt Eichhorn is a marvelous Brucknerian. He only recorded no. 2 and 5 through 9, but all are superb with excellent SQ. His approach is spacious, plumbing the depths of emotions and heights of grandeur.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Totenfeier said:


> You know how we sometimes - well, frequently - talk about a particular "conductor's/composer"? Such as Furtwangler's Beethoven or Bernstein's Mahler...and then somebody will say something such as "Well, for me, _this_ guy does Mahler's Mahler?"
> 
> Well, for _me_, whether I am right or wrong, when I'm thinking I just want Bruckner's Bruckner, my go-to guy is Stanislaw Skrowaczewski.


I have his Sixth. Great stuff. Now spell his name backwards


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Triplets said:


> I have his Sixth. Great stuff. Now spell his name backwards


eman sih. No problem!


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

_(I was just catching up a bit in the "What's New" listing, and I saw this... Just because someone is a conscientious Catholic or Protestant does mean that s/he is not a person of flesh and blood who delights in the flesh and the rest of the wonders of nature! Just thinking about the implications of a belief in the Incarnation should make that clear._

_Sigh)_



Woodduck said:


> Never fear. I know flesh and blood Catholics myself. Some of my best friends are flesh and blood Catholics.
> 
> There is, however, a tradition of asceticism in Christianity gong all the way back to the time of its founding, a tradition with some support in the very words of Jesus and certainly of Paul. Then there's the requirement of celibacy for Catholic priests (we know how well that works in practice ), and, last but not least, the sexual neurosis of western civilization, to be laid directly at the feet of Christianity, that still has our governments policing private behavior and that wreaks havoc in the lives of countless individuals. In light of all this, it's a bit remarkable to hear a lecture on how the Church delights in the flesh.
> 
> Bruckner has often been viewed as an otherworldly ascetic, and if you know his music well you know that it can be performed in such a way as to downplay its Romantic, emotional qualities. Those qualities can also be brought out, as Furtwangler shows.


MY original post was a not a lecture and it was not a personal attack.

As you yourself have stated, Christianity is not a monolithic entity. It has always been made up of many different traditions--different interpretations, different emphases, different practices of behavior.

I did NOT state that "the Church delights in the flesh" because in the context that we are discussing, particularly after your response, there is no SIMPLE or CLEAR definition of what is and who constitutes the church on earth in any one place or moment. The earthly church as a body has publicly confessed it is sinful; it is simultaneously made up of imperfect, sinfulness believers; individuals at different degrees of understanding of the faith at different moments in their lives; there have always been named and unnamed individuals who are true witnesses of the essence of Christianity.

Again, asceticism as practiced by Christians is not monolithic either. There have always been different understandings of the purpose of each individual's practice. Yes, there is a tradition of those who have practiced celibacy or mortification of the flesh because they thought that the desires and needs of the body were sinful, but there have always been those who fully recognize the sacredness of the world, including the fundamental goodness of sexuality. They recognize this and they voluntarily abstain as a sacrifice for those who suffer, as a sacrifice for the sins of individuals and the church as a whole, including the sexual crimes of some of the clergy. There also has been a tradition of re-channeling the positive power of the sexual drive to focus on caring for the sick, etc.

Humanity is very young; the church as a multitude of individuals continues to grow in understanding the implications of the faith, such as the implications of the Incarnation and our relationship to our own bodies and nature as a whole.

It is my opinion that you stated a generalization that grossly misrepresents the Christian faith and the Church. I would have been willing to let it pass, but too many people only hear the same negative remarks and examples over and over: the body, the senses, and sexuality as evil; the priests who aren't celibate; sexual abuse by members of the clergy; the Spanish Inquisition....

My original post was NOT a personal attack and *I KNOW that YOU ALSO already KNOW* most of what I stated above!

It's not cowardly or weak to just say I was wrong, or I wasn't fair in my representation of Christianity, or *I only said that because I liked how the words flowed together!
*
I know very little about Bruckner; but, if the description of all that Bruckner went through to meet Wagner in person and obtain his approval for a dedication is accurate, I'd say he was an EXTREMELY PASSIONATE person.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

O.K., I couldn't resist that one in #103, but what I _came_ here to say is that I have sampled some Simone Young, and I would very much like to put her into the front rank of Bruckner conductors, but the original version of the Eighth is a musical Potato Jesus; I hate it; I want nothing do do with it, and I don't care who knows it.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

Totenfeier said:


> O.K., I couldn't resist that one in #103, but what I _came_ here to say is that I have sampled some Simone Young, and I would very much like to put her into the front rank of Bruckner conductors, but the original version of the Eighth is a musical Potato Jesus; I hate it; I want nothing do do with it, and I don't care who knows it.


I completely agree, and with perhaps the exception of no. 3, the revisions of all Bruckner's symphonies, particularly those of the man himself, Nowak, and Haas, are much improved over the originals.

So despite some excellent playing and conducting, Young's choice of the original versions, for me, are no more than stuffy museum pieces, perhaps to be experienced once out of curiosity, and then best forgotten.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> As you yourself have stated, Christianity is not a monolithic entity. It has always been made up of many different traditions--different interpretations, different emphases, different practices of behavior.
> 
> *It is my opinion that you stated a generalization that grossly misrepresents the Christian faith and the Church.* I would have been willing to let it pass, but too many people only hear the same negative remarks and examples over and over: the body, the senses, and sexuality as evil; the priests who aren't celibate; sexual abuse by members of the clergy; the Spanish Inquisition....
> 
> ...


My original statement was:

_Bruckner may have been a conscientious Catholic, but he was also a man of flesh and blood who adored Wagner, pagan high priest of uncensored, primal passions. His symphonies are Romantic music, not cold stone cathedrals in sound or religious rites._

This is not intended as a broad critique of Christianity. It is merely an assertion that the nature of Bruckner's music was not determined entirely or even primarily by his particular brand of religion - that it is not some equivalent in sound of a theophany or homily or metaphysical system, as it is sometimes casually taken to be - but also by aspects of his humanity and personality which are less esoteric and codified than Catholic theology, dogma, and practice, and which may exist and pervade his art in ways which sit uncomfortably with his faith. He was quite a strange bird - obsessed with corpses, with counting the bricks in walls, and with keeping lists of the young girls he was infatuated with (or hot for). One has to wonder what he thought his God thought of such things, seeing as how none of them are covered in the Ten Commandments.

There is no question of my being cowardly or weak or unfair, or of any failure in my refusing to retract my statement. You read it as a blanket assertion about Christians. That's not what it was. However, since you seem to want to go there, I will satisfy your project and admit that you would be right to see in my remark a scorn for religious institutions, supernatural metaphysics, "revealed" scriptures, dogmas, and moral "authorities," and their long and shameful record of misrepresenting, neglecting, restricting, repressing, and condemning both the rational and physical aspects of human nature, and so holding back the progress of human knowledge and damaging countless individual lives before they even reach the age of consciousness.

Which is more than I wanted to have to say.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I have no desire to cause pain or aggravate suffering, Woodduck. I won't comment any more when you voice your anger.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> I have no desire to cause pain or aggravate suffering, Woodduck. I won't comment any more when you voice your anger.


Charity is so often a form of condescension.

You've attributed motives and meanings to me which exist only in your mind. Just as my initial post was only by the way a mild and implicit criticism of Catholicism, but was primarily a statement about the nature of Bruckner's character and how it's reflected in his music, so your indignant reaction causes me no pain. Likewise, my subsequent statements are not an expression of anger. You've made unwarranted assumptions about me in each case.

We would do better to confine our remarks to Bruckner and try to avoid making assumptions about other members' personal views, motives, and states of mind. Wouldn't you agree?


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Woodduck, I am very fortunate to have access to all the music in the Berlin Philharmonic's archives as well as many other music sites. What performances of any of Bruckner's music would you recommend for someone very new to his music? Also, 
although my book pile is already too high, for the future, is there any one biography you recommend? Many Thanks.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> Woodduck, I am very fortunate to have access to all the music in the Berlin Philharmonic's archives as well as many other music sites. What performances of any of Bruckner's music would you recommend for someone very new to his music? Also,
> although my book pile is already too high, for the future, is there any one biography you recommend? Many Thanks.


I love some of Bruckner's music, but don't count myself a Bruckner aficionado, and certainly not an authority. Perhaps others here could provide more guidance.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

You might most enjoy beginning with the the 7th symphony. Recommended performances are Thielemann/SKD and Giulini/VPO. Other choices include Karajan/VPO, Wand/BPO, and Furtwangler (but sadly his recordings are monaural and quite poor in terms of SQ).

See where that takes you...


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

merlinus said:


> You might most enjoy beginning with the the 7th symphony. Recommended performances are Thielemann/SKD and Giulini/VPO. Other choices include Karajan/VPO, Wand/BPO, and Furtwangler (but sadly his recordings are monaural and quite poor in terms of SQ).
> 
> See where that takes you...


I am so tired that I am falling asleep as I type, but I didn't want the day to end without thanking you for your recommendations, Merlinus. 

I'll just post two things very quickly. Earlier today I started exploring on my own and I began looking at the list of all of Bruckner's music in the Berlin Philharmonic's archive. I don't know if you aware, but for most concerts they have one-three interviews or discussions about something related to the music. Well, I've enjoyed Herbert Blomstedt's interviews and talks very much, so I watched his 28 min discussion re/ the Eight Symphony (Haas Edition) and then I watched the performance. Well, I thought the music was GORGEOUS, especially the third movement (I think I listened to the third movement three times). Then as I continued to scroll down the concert list, I suddenly remembered that the first performance I've ever seen of Bruckner's music, was Andris Nelson conducting the Third Symphony in April 2016. Memories of that concert and the several interviews and reflections came back very quickly. I enjoyed the work, but I listen to music in almost a whole new way since last year, so I am set to listen to that concert again before moving onto some performance of the Seventh.

I'd like to make a positive contribution to this thread, so I've begun to type up a list of all the BP's concerts of Bruckner's symphonies and the accompanying interviews and talks; I would imagine that at least some of you have not heard all these performances because not all of them have been recorded. Interestingly, on 9 May of this year Simon Rattle will also be conducting the 8th (Haas Edition) that will be at 1 PM New York Time.

In case any of you would like a head start, here is the web address of the Berlin Philharmonic's
DigitalConcertHall.com. This is not a rival site but a wonderful resource. All the interviews are free. As an annual subscriber I also receive different promotions frequently and anytime you purchase a recording direct from the BP you receive a 7-Day Pass, so I have several of them. If any of you would like one just send me a PM. You don't have to provide an e-mail address, I just give you a code.

Again, Merlinus (and others who sent me recommendations privately), Thank you VERY much.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Jo, per your request, and at the risk of stepping into quicksand :lol:

- Avoid any by Celibidache as, IMO, they are extremely slow. I found his BPO 7th to be intolerable.
- Also, for now, stay away from Simone Young and Georg Tintner. There is nothing wrong with their recordings and interpretation but they use the original versions of the symphonies which, in most cases, Bruckner subsequently modified, often substantially.
- The 7th is a good starting point, as is the 4th
- Carlo Maria Giulini's recordings are generally safe bets
- For the 4th, 6th & 7th, the Otto Klemperer are also good.
- i don't care for Karajan as his excess legato is quite un-Brucknerian. (also IMO)


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Triplets said:


> Jochum has recorded all the Symphonies several times over, but Critics hold him in low regard.


I wasn't aware that critics hold him in low regard.


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## Doron (Apr 20, 2017)

For me Riccardo Chailly


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Stay away from Simone Young? No way. Strongly disagree. One of the best Brucknerian conductors ever. And it is somehow refreshing to hear the original versions of Bruckners' symphonies.



Becca said:


> Jo, per your request, and at the risk of stepping into quicksand :lol:
> 
> - Avoid any by Celibidache as, IMO, they are extremely slow. I found his BPO 7th to be intolerable.
> - Also, for now, stay away from Simone Young and Georg Tintner. There is nothing wrong with their recordings and interpretation but they use the original versions of the symphonies which, in most cases, Bruckner subsequently modified, often substantially.
> ...


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Nevum said:


> Stay away from Simone Young? No way. Strongly disagree. One of the best Brucknerian conductors ever. And it is somehow refreshing to hear the original versions of Bruckners' symphonies.


You need to read what I said more carefully ... "for now", i.e. I am recommending that she _begin_ with the standard versions.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

Becca said:


> You need to read what I said more carefully ... "for now", i.e. I am recommending that she _begin_ with the standard versions.


Having just listened to Young's Bruckner 3, I am more convinced than ever that the later edited version is far, far superior. It mostly felt episodic and herky-jerky, lacking connective tissue, so to speak, with no sense of flow and wholeness.

No matter how well played by the Hamburg band, it is not worth listening to ever again!

So yes indeed, Josefina should stick to the Nowak and Haas editions.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Becca said:


> Jo, per your request, and at the risk of stepping into quicksand :lol:
> 
> ...Thank you very much, Becca. You are a damn good egg.
> 
> ...


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Woodduck, after just a little listening and reading I clearly see what I think is your point in this excerpt from one of your posts, 

..."His symphonies are Romantic music, not cold stone cathedrals in sound or religious rites.

.... the nature of Bruckner's music was not determined entirely or even primarily by his particular brand of religion - that it is not some equivalent in sound of a theophany or homily or metaphysical system, as it is sometimes casually taken to be - but also by aspects of his humanity and personality...." 

and maybe prematurely, but I would add maybe they should read the primary sources of the accounts of Bruckner's neuroses and nervous breakdowns instead of just citing the same examples repeatedly. From recent personal experience to have a drawing or photo of someone on their deathbed can be understood from a whole different, very healthy and loving viewpoint! 

My apologies and I hope that someone will start a new thread re/ Bruckner in the Composer Guest-List section of the forum that has a clear sense of what you said above.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Thielemann's BPO 7th is a bit on the slow side for me, tending a bit too much towards the contemplative (Celibidache takes that to extremes). I feel that doing so robs the music of some of its dynamism and can often make the music seem to episodic. Of course the opposite happens also, paradoxically with the same result. I did hear an excellent live 7th last year from what was, for me, a somewhat unexpected source, Riccardo Muti conducting the Chicago Symphony.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

Becca said:


> Thielemann's BPO 7th.


The Thielemann 7th I referred to is with SKD, not BPO. The excellent SQ enhances his spacious interpretation, which for me is essential in Bruckner recordings. But the music is always moving forward, not lagging as it does at times with Celibidache.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

merlinus said:


> The Thielemann 7th I referred to is with SKD, not BPO. The excellent SQ enhances his spacious interpretation, which for me is essential in Bruckner recordings. But the music is always moving forward, not lagging as it does at times with Celibidache.


..and I was specifically referring to a Thielemann Berlin Phil concert from this last December as that was what Josefina was watching on the Digital Concert hall.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Bruckner Performances by the Berlin Philharmonic.

Recorded in Video and available to view on their Digital Concert Hall (www.digitalconcerthall.com), but *not released as audio recordings*:

First Thirteen Concerts

1. UPCOMING: 6 May 2017: *SIMON RATTLE*

Simon Holt, Surcos (première)
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 8 in C minor (Haas edition)*

2. 27 Dec 2016 *CHRISTIAN THIELEMANN*

Beethoven, _Concerto for Piano and Orchestra No. 1 in C major, op. 15_, Rudolf Buchbinder, _piano_
Beethoven,_ 7 Bagatelles, op. 33: No. 5 in C major_, Rudolf Buchbinder
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 7 in E major
*
FREE: Interview: Christian Thielemann in conversation with Christoph Streuli 2nd violin *(Thielemann discusses Bruckner as the "school for conductors" and his different approaches over his career.)*

3. 10 Dec 2016 *CHRISTIAN THIELEMANN*

Sofia Gubaidulina, _In tempus praesens, concerto_ for violin and orchestra, Gidon Kremer, _violin_
*Bruckner, Mass No. 3 in F minor* (Anne Schwanewilms Soprano, Wiebke Lehmkuhl Contralto, Michael Schade Tenor, Franz-Josef Selig Bass, Rundfunkchor Berlin, Gijs Leenaars Chorus Master)

FREE: Interview: Gidon Kremer in conversation with Walter Küssner

4. 29 April 2016 *ANDRIS NELSONS*

Wagner, _Parsifal: Prelude to Act 1 and Good Friday Spell from Act 3_
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 3 in D minor (1889 version)
*
FREE: Interview: Andris Nelsons in conversation with Gunars Upatnieks 
FREE: Interview: Wagner and Bruckner: An introduction by Susanne Stähr 
FREE: Interview: Musicians of the Berliner Philharmoniker talk about Anton Bruckner

5. 6 December 2015 *BERNARD HAITINK*
Mozart, _Concerto for Piano and Orchestra No. 25 in C major, K. 503_, Till Fellner, _piano_
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 9 in D minor*

6. 10 Jan 2015 *HERBERT BLOMSTEDT*

*Bruckner, Symphony No. 8 in C minor (Haas edition)*
FREE: Interview: Herbert Blomstedt about Bruckner's Eighth Symphony

7. 5 May 2014 *SIMON RATTLE* (In memory of Claudio Abbado)

Schubert, _Rosamunde, incidental music, D 797: No. 5 Entr'acte_, Frank Peter Zimmermann,
Mozart, _Concerto for Violin and Orchestra No. 3 in G major, K. 216,_ Frank Peter Zimmermann
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 7 in E major*
FREE: Interview: Members of the Berliner Philharmoniker remember Claudio Abbado

8. 15 Mar 2014 *BERNARD HAITINK*

Mozart, Concerto for Piano and Orchestra No. 9 in E flat major, K. 271 "Jenamy" Emanuel Ax
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 4 in E flat major "Romantic"*
FREE: Interview: Bernard Haitink in conversation with Peter Brem

9. 18 Jan 2014 *ZUBIN MEHTA*

George Crumb, _Ancient Voices of Children, A Cycle of Songs on Texts by Federico García Lorca_ for mezzo-soprano, boy soprano and chamber ensemble, Marlis Petersen Soprano
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 9 in D minor*

FREE: Interview: Marlis Petersen in conversation with Eva-Maria Tomasi

10. 8 Nov 2013 *SIMON RATTLE* From the National Concert Hall, Taipei

Pierre Boulez, _Notations for orchestra: I, VII, IV, III, II_
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 7 in E major*

11. 31 May 2013* SIMON RATTLE*

Pierre Boulez, _Notations: Selection_
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 7 in E major*

FREE: Interview: Albrecht Dümling on Boulez' Notations
FREE: Interview: Albrecht Dümling on Bruckners Symphony No. 7

12. 11 Jan 2013 *RICCARDO CHAILLY*

Mendelssohn, _Symphony No. 4 in A major, op. 90 "Italian"_
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 6 in A major
*
FREE: Interview: Riccardo Chailly in conversation with Albrecht Mayer

13. 2 Dec 2012 *SIMON RATTLE*
"40 Years of the Orchestra Academy" Gala Concert: ORCHESTRA ACADEMY OF THE BERLINER PHILHARMONIKER

*Bruckner, Symphony No. 8*


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Bruckner Performances by the Berlin Philharmonic _(continued, second of two posts) _

Recorded in Video and available to view on their Digital Concert Hall (www.digitalconcerthall.com), *but not released as audio recordings*:

14. 17 Mar 2012 * ZUBIN MEHTA

**Bruckner, Symphony No. 8 in C minor (1890 version)*
FREE: Interview: Zubin Mehta on *Bruckner's Eighth: *an introduction to the work with excerpts from rehearsals15. 4 Mar 2012 *CHRISTIAN THIELEMANN

*
15. 4 Mar 2012 *CHRISTIAN THIELEMANN*

Richard Strauss, _Concerto for Oboe and small Orchestra in D major, o. op. AV 144_, Albrecht Mayer, _oboe_
Johann Sebastian Bach, _Cantata, BWV 156: Sinfonia_
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 4 in E flat major "Romantic" (1878/80 version) 
*
FREE: Interview: Albrecht Mayer on the oboe concerto by Richard Strauss (00:07:33)
FREE: Interview: Christian Thielemann on Strauss's Oboe Concerto and *Bruckner's Fourth*, including excerpts from rehearsals

16. 9 Feb 2012 *SIMON RATTLE

**Bruckner, Symphony No. 9 in D minor* in the performing edition of the 4th movement completed from the manuscripts by Samale-Phillips-Cohrs-Mazzuca (1985-2008/revised 2010)

FREE: Interview: Simon Rattle on the *completed Ninth Symphony* of Anton Bruckner

17. 19 Nov 2011 *SIMON RATTLE*
From the National Concert Hall, Taipei

Maurice Ravel, _Alborada del gracioso_ Stefan Dohr, _horn_
Toshio Hosokawa, _Concerto for Horn and Orchestra "Moment of Blossoming,"_ Stefan Dohr
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 9 in D minor*

18. 28 May 2011 *STANISŁAW SKROWACZEWSKI

*Karl Amadeus Hartmann, _Song Scene for baritone and orchestra on a text from Sodom and Gomorrah by Jean Giraudoux_, Matthias Goerne Baritone

*Bruckner, Symphony No. 3 in D minor (1889 version)*
FREE: Interview: Stanisław Skrowaczewski - A Life in Music

19. 12 Mar 2011 *BERNARD HAITINK

**Bruckner, Symphony No. 5 in B flat major*

20. 6 Mar 2011 *HERBERT BLOMSTEDT

*Paul Hindemith, _Nobilissima visione_, orchestral suite

*Bruckner, Mass No. 3 in F minor * (Juliane Banse Soprano, Claudia Mahnke Mezzo-Soprano, Dominik Wortig Tenor, Markus Butter Bass, Rundfunkchor Berlin, Simon Halsey Chorus Master)

FREE: Interview: Herbert Blomstedt on Hindemith's "Nobilissima visione" and *Bruckner's Mass in F minor*

21. 4 June 2010 *HERBERT BLOMSTEDT*

Beethoven, _Triple Concerto in C major, op. 56_ Daniel Stabrawa Violin, Ludwig Quandt Cello, Martin Helmchen, _piano_
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 6 in A major*

FREE: Interview: *Anton Bruckner: Symphony No. 6* - An introduction by Herbert Blomstedt (in German)

22. 31 Jan 2009 *SEIJI OZAWA

**Bruckner, Symphony No. 1 in C minor

*23. 13 Dec 2008 *CHRISTIAN THIELEMANN

**Bruckner, Symphony No. 8 in C minor*

24. 15 Sept 2008 *SIMON RATTLE *Orchestra Academy of the Berliner Philharmoniker

Franz Schreker, _Chamber Symphony_
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 9 in D minor*

25. 31 Mar 1992 *SERGIU CELIBIDACHE
*
*Bruckner, Symphony No. 7 in E major*


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

Thanks for this list!!! Do you know if the audio is cd quality, mp3 (rate), or ???


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I don't know exactly what the encoding but the quality is quite high if not quite lossless. The video quality is adjustable but I have not detected a difference in the sound as the video quality is lowered.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

Becca said:


> I don't know exactly what the encoding but the quality is quite high if not quite lossless. The video quality is adjustable but I have not detected a difference in the sound as the video quality is lowered.


Thanks, Becca -- much appreciated! I prefer 2.1 audio only, though, so hopefully some of these concerts will be issued on cds, or even better, sacds. I have rarely, if ever, watched any music videos more than once, even those I purchased.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Some of them have been on the BPO's own label (e.g. the Sibelius & Schumann cycles.) The nice thing is that there is a very large archive of videos going back to the Karajan and Abbado days but with the majority being from 2005+. Personally I also don't care to watch the videos very often but it is nice to have access to the archive and so can listen to concerts without watching them. There are some real gems out there including what I consider to be the best Mahler 4th (Rattle & Christine Shafer), an opinion shared by an ex-TC Mahler expert who is not a Rattle fan.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

I suppose I could stream the videos to my desktop computer and listen to the audio via headphones and USB dac/amp without watching the films. Will have to give it a go with the freebie, although Rattle is one of my least favorite conductors, along with Haitink, Abbado, and most of Karajan.

I am hoping, as with the NYPO, having a new conductor and music director will enable both bands to regain much of their former glory.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

merlinus said:


> Thanks for this list!!! Do you know if the audio is cd quality, mp3 (rate), or ???


You are VERY welcome, Merlinus. I am happy to hear that the list is of use to you!

The following image is a screenshot from the DigitalConcertHall.com's FAQ page. I also recently saw that Vaneyes made a post that OLED will be coming to the DCC in July of this year.

I have watched and listened on my PC, iPhone, iPad, KindleFire. I don't use a TV very often so I have no experience with DCC on TV, but I know that it is possible. I suggest you just go to the site and explore; YouTube is very nice, but the DCC is in a league all by itself.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

Thanks again for all the useful info!!! But it seems strange that they say the audio is 24/48kHz, yet the table lists 320K (32kHz) as the most one can get. Clearly there is a discrepancy, given the quoted bitrates, so it would seem the audio is transmitted as compressed mp3. For comparison, CDs are 16/44kHz.

I will give it a listen over the next few days, and let you know about my experience.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

You are confusing apples and oranges. The recording is made with 24 bit / 48 KHz but is transmitted at between 256 and 320 Kbps using the AAC compression algorithm (not MP3). 
_Advanced Audio Coding (AAC) is an audio coding standard for lossy digital audio compression. Designed to be the successor of the MP3 format, AAC generally achieves better sound quality than MP3 at similar bit rates._ - Wikipedia

View attachment 93813


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

Thanks for the info, but from what I see on the chart in your post, the audio is still lossy, and not even CD quality. But yes, better than mp3.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

JosefinaHW said:


> You are VERY welcome, Merlinus. I am happy to hear that the list is of use to you!
> 
> The following image is a screenshot from the DigitalConcertHall.com's FAQ page. *I also recently saw that Vaneyes made a post that OLED will be coming to the DCC in July of this year. *
> 
> I have watched and listened on my PC, iPhone, iPad, KindleFire. I don't use a TV very often so I have no experience with DCC on TV, but I know that it is possible. I suggest you just go to the site and explore; YouTube is very nice, but the DCC is in a league all by itself.


JosefinaHW, I believe what I referenced was information (see link below) regarding Panasonic 4K HDR association. Panasonic has OLED involvement/development (see link below), but re DCH AFAIK their 4K HDR will only be used at this time. I have a 65" Panasonic 4K HDR, so I hope to test this association soon. Cheers! :tiphat:

https://www.berliner-philharmoniker...tion-between-berlin-phil-media-and-panasonic/

https://www.oled-info.com/panasonic-oled


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

merlinus said:


> Thanks for the info, but from what I see on the chart in your post, the audio is still lossy, and not even CD quality. But yes, better than mp3.


Merlinus, I personally do not care about any listed numbers: my picture and sound are glorious.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

JosefinaHW said:


> Merlinus, I personally do not care about any listed numbers: my picture and sound are glorious.


In addition to improved video quality for 2017/18 DCH, improved audio quality (with the help of Panasonic's hi-end audio arm Technics) is also promised. Panasonic press release's (see link below) tag words are "hi resolution audio" and "enhanced audio".
AFAIK no "enhanced numbers" have been announced yet.

http://news.panasonic.com/global/press/data/2016/12/en161228-2/en161228-2.html

Maybe Merlinus will be happy, or maybe not. :tiphat:


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

My ears will tell the story. Numbers are interesting, but... 

The HD TV features are useless, for me, and I much prefer listening to watching anyway.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

merlinus said:


> My ears will tell the story. Numbers are interesting, but...
> 
> The HD TV features are useless, for me, and I much prefer listening to watching anyway.


Merlinus, you do not have to have a TV to watch... you can watch on your computer monitor, "smart"phone, tablet.... Do you think an opera is only to be listened to and not watched? There is a visual component to the (OK, IMO) DCH that is so enriching. In a concert hall you will never be able to see so close and from so many angles--and it's both beautiful and instructive. The concerts (and interviews and talks) become complete sensory delights--you just need to add the companion animal (human or non) and beverage and you'll never be the same again!


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