# Wozzeck on CD



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Inspired by the _TC recommended operas thread_ I've decided to explore this opera.

My local library has a choice of two CD versions:



















Is anyone familiar with either of these? I'm not planning to purchase at this point so these are my only choices.


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## Poppin' Fresh (Oct 24, 2009)

If it was a choice between the Metzmacher and Böhm's studio _Wozzeck_ with Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, I'd say go with _that_ Böhm recording. Hands down.

But since I'm not familiar with this Böhm, and know the Metzmacher to be solid, I'm inclined to suggest the Metzmacher. However that cast featuring Evans and Silja looks like it could be interesting...you probably wouldn't go wrong either way.

My all-time favorite: Abbado's recording.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I've only got the Berlin Classics recording, conducted by Herbert Kegel...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Is anyone familiar with either of these? I'm not planning to purchase at this point so these are my only choices.


Get Lulu instead. I don't understand why people prefer Wozzeck to Lulu. And yes, I know that my first encounter with Lulu was a puzzled one. But then it grew on me.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Get Lulu instead. I don't understand why people prefer Wozzeck to Lulu. And yes, I know that my first encounter with Lulu was a puzzled one. But then it grew on me.


Yes, I'm going to get Lulu too, but someone said that Wozzeck was more accessible for Berg virgins.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yes, I'm going to get Lulu too, but someone said that Wozzeck was more accessible for Berg virgins.


I did, and I stand by it... unless you want to plunge into hard-core atonal opera.

How about get both at the same time and watch them back to back!  If you're having suicidal thoughts by the end, I'm not responsible.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

World Violist said:


> I did, and I stand by it... unless you want to plunge into hard-core atonal opera.
> 
> How about get both at the same time and watch them back to back!  If you're having suicidal thoughts by the end, I'm not responsible.


I don't want to do "more accessible." I've been bold and courageous and these days I can say that I'm not afraid of atonal music. I actually like it.

I think Wozzeck's cynicism and overblown characters are off-putting. And the music is not that great. Lulu on the other hand is extremely compelling, with a character that is very much realistic (a mix of antisocial/borderline personality disorder), and pretty outstanding atmospheric orchestration.

Really, this is a question for you, World Violist, my guru in modern opera: why in the hell is Wozzeck more highly regarded than Lulu?


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Almaviva said:


> Really, this is a question for you, World Violist, my gury in modern opera: why in the hell is Wozzeck more highly regarded than Lulu?


1) Wozzeck is more easily approachable, 2) Berg didn't finish Lulu, so it was never fully performed until the '60s (I think).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

World Violist said:


> 1) Wozzeck is more easily approachable, 2) Berg didn't finish Lulu, so it was never fully performed until the '60s (I think).


OK, but what do you think?
I think Lulu is the better opera.
Do you agree?


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## Poppin' Fresh (Oct 24, 2009)

Oh I think _Wozzeck_ is a masterpiece and will hopefully one day stand in the standard repertoire as one of the most powerful operas ever written. It doesn't give itself over to analysis very easily; it reaches out, grabs you, and demands your attention. You can't be indifferent to either the story or its music.

It's so intense dramatically, dealing with the brutality of mankind and society towards the individual very succinctly. It's tense and heartbreaking. Musically, I love how the madness of the tragedy is countered by rigorous application of traditional musical forms. The leitmotifs are spun together to chilling effect in all sorts of amazing fugues and musical inventions. Overall, it just paints a perfect aural atmosphere.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Almaviva said:


> OK, but what do you think?
> I think Lulu is the better opera.
> Do you agree?


I actually haven't heard the entire thing all the way through, though I've heard the suite, which is fantastic (I'm not quite a modern opera guru; still a ways to go yet though you've now issued a sort of indirect challenge to me ). Certainly seems a lot more compelling though. I'm just thinking immediate reasons why it's less popular, and that would be because of the music and the unfinishedness. Not doubting it's the greater opera of the two, I'm just wondering if Wozzeck might be better first instead of the brutal shock of Lulu.

I'll get the DVD though and get back to you on that when I see it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

What's the use of comparing apples and oranges?

_Wozzeck_ is freely atonal, whereas _Lulu_ has elements of the serial technique (but I don't think Berg used it strictly, apparently none of the Second Viennese School did).

Speaking strictly for myself, _Wozzeck_ was the first "atonal" work that I encountered as a teenager, it lead me to enjoy a type of music that sometimes can baffle some listeners at first (or forever?). I think it's a great opera and a perfect stepping stone to other c20th operas (of which I'm no expert) and indeed, other "atonal" and "serial" works...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I think both are great but I think it undoubtedly helped by my listening to Wozzeck first. Had I tried them the other way around it would been a bit like eating the chicken vindaloo before the vegetable samosa. I haven't heard either version of Wozzeck as mentioned in the original post - I opted for Dohnanyi's recording as there was also Schoenberg's Erwartung as a fill-up.

Wozzeck is one of the most bleakly chilling operas I have heard - Lulu doesn't fall into the same category in that respect as I think the violence/pyschodrama seems more surreal and is absorbed rather than highlighted due to the myriad complexities of the plot.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Andre said:


> What's the use of comparing apples and oranges?
> 
> _Wozzeck_ is freely atonal, whereas _Lulu_ has elements of the serial technique (but I don't think Berg used it strictly, apparently none of the Second Viennese School did).
> 
> Speaking strictly for myself, _Wozzeck_ was the first "atonal" work that I encountered as a teenager, it lead me to enjoy a type of music that sometimes can baffle some listeners at first (or forever?). I think it's a great opera and a perfect stepping stone to other c20th operas (of which I'm no expert) and indeed, other "atonal" and "serial" works...


Well, it's not apples and oranges, they are both operas.
We can compare a verismo opera to a belcanto opera... a baroque opera to a romantic opera... (e.g., what we are doing in the "top 100 recommended operas" thread), so why not an atonal opera to a serial opera?
The point of the comparison is to look into what works and what doesn't in terms of musical drama, how well the orchestration matches the plot, etc, independently of the musical technique employed. All that I said is that in my opinion, when compared to Wozzeck Lulu is the better opera - which translates into saying that it is one that works better for me in terms of musical drama.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> I think both are great but I think it undoubtedly helped by my listening to Wozzeck first. Had I tried them the other way around it would been a bit like eating the chicken vindaloo before the vegetable samosa. I haven't heard either version of Wozzeck as mentioned in the original post - I opted for Dohnanyi's recording as there was also Schoenberg's Erwartung as a fill-up.
> 
> Wozzeck is one of the most bleakly chilling operas I have heard - Lulu doesn't fall into the same category in that respect as I think the violence/pyschodrama seems more surreal and is absorbed rather than highlighted due to the myriad complexities of the plot.


You have a point. I got Lulu first, then Wozzeck, and your chicken vindaloo - vegetable samosa analogy :lol: nailed it! That's exactly how it felt to me!


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Almaviva said:


> Well, it's not apples and oranges, they are both operas.
> We can compare a verismo opera to a belcanto opera... a baroque opera to a romantic opera... (e.g., what we are doing in the "top 100 recommended operas" thread), so why not an atonal opera to a serial opera?
> The point of the comparison is to look into what works and what doesn't in termos of musical drama, how well the orchestration matches the plot, etc, independently of the musical technique employed. All that I said is that in my opinion, when compared to Wozzeck Lulu is the better opera - which translates into saying that it is one that works better for me in terms of musical drama.


The apples and oranges thing does apply because they're both fruits. Atonal is apple, serial is orange, bel canto is pineapple, verismo is cherry, Shostakovich is rotten tomato tossed to the ground in a sub-Arctic wasteland (still a fruit, and I am resolutely not dissing the opera; I'm describing its character)... etc.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

World Violist said:


> The apples and oranges thing does apply because they're both fruits. Atonal is apple, serial is orange, bel canto is pineapple, verismo is cherry, Shostakovich is rotten tomato tossed to the ground in a sub-Arctic wasteland (still a fruit, and I am resolutely not dissing the opera; I'm describing its character)... etc.


I know but you're being literal. The spirit of the saying is that we can't compare things that belong to different categories. I'm saying that we can compare operas that subscribe to different musical styles and techniques because they are both musical dramas of the same basic nature. We routinely do this. We just had a long contest between Les Troyens and Giulio Cesare. These are musically more different from each other than Wozzeck and Lulu.

If you want to be literal, then you're saying that we can only compare oranges to oranges? In this case there's nothing to compare, you have the same object.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Almaviva said:


> I know but you're being literal. The spirit of the saying is that we can't compare things that belong to different categories. I'm saying that we can compare operas that subscribe to different musical styles and techniques because they are both musical dramas of the same basic nature. We routinely do this. We just had a long contest between Les Troyens and Giulio Cesare. These are musically more different from each other than Wozzeck and Lulu.
> 
> If you want to be literal, then you're saying that we can only compare oranges to oranges? In this case there's nothing to compare, you have the same object.


No, I'm just saying that we have to keep in mind that they are different operas... maybe it's more like saying one is an apple and the other a slightly different kind of apple. I dunno.

I'm really liking that one saying that one should strive to keep silent and have people think one is a fool rather than speak and remove all doubt. I figure I've removed too much doubt of myself, so I'll just shut up now.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

World Violist said:


> No, I'm just saying that we have to keep in mind that they are different operas... maybe it's more like saying one is an apple and the other a slightly different kind of apple. I dunno.


Well I know nothing about any of this, except that I am going to have my vegetable samosa first (or is it an apple) as suggested by WV. I think I'll go for the Skovus/Denoke version. Thanks guys.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

World Violist said:


> No, I'm just saying that we have to keep in mind that they are different operas... maybe it's more like saying one is an apple and the other a slightly different kind of apple. I dunno.
> 
> I'm really liking that one saying that one should strive to keep silent and have people think one is a fool rather than speak and remove all doubt. I figure I've removed too much doubt of myself, so I'll just shut up now.


Well, far from me to think you're a fool, World Violist. I rather think, like I said before, that you have excellent taste in opera. It's just that I'm in an argumentative mood, LOL. Sorry, buddy.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I have 6 Wozzecks...and the one I prefer...and the most recognized version is old...

Ana Silja is good. But the very best (believe me!) is this one

http://www.amazon.com/Berg-Wozzeck-...r_1_13?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1290362362&sr=1-13

Don't be wrong, Lulu is good, Wozzeck is good...Both are different, buy both.

Buy rather the DVD of both.

http://www.amazon.com/Berg-Wozzeck-...ef=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1290362526&sr=1-1 (Claudia Abbado)

http://www.amazon.com/Berg-Schafer-...ef=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1290362582&sr=1-1

Simply the best Wozzeck and Lulu ever.

Do you want to see my collection?

http://pages.videotron.com/svp/

Martin Pitchon


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Abbado's *Wozzeck* gets my vote.

http://www.amazon.com/Alban-Berg-Gr...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1290363384&sr=1-1

The VPO is marvellous.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

what is VPO?

Martin, ignorant...


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Books.

Wozzeck comes from Georg Büchner's Woyzeck...It is exactly the same story...
Lulu comes from two Frank Wedekind's stories: Pandora's box and the spirit of earth...Both complexes stories...

Both composers were considered "existentialist". Remember the difference between Impressionism (from the outside to the inside: Gaugin, Van Gogh, Debussy) and expressionism: from inside to outside.. (Kandinsky, Schönberg, Berg, Emile Zola).

Lulu is a more complexe story, Berg left the opera unfinished..."others" complete it (not very successfully, I guess)... Why he didn't complete Lulu? I don't know, do you REALLY know it? It was maybe too hard to finish this opera? The completion by others was reusing Lulu's music...is it the was Alban Berg would have done this? I'm not sure...more...I'm sure he would not....He had in mind a surprise we'll never know!

Martin Piitchon, who prefers the unfinished version.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> what is VPO?
> 
> Martin, ignorant...


VPO = Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.
In German, Wiener Philharmoniker


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Mitropoulos is and was considered as a reference version:

http://www.amazon.com/Berg-Wozzeck-...r_1_12?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1291616172&sr=1-12

Martin


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## MichaWeinst (May 2, 2018)

I didn't hear enough of Wozzeck in order to judge which performance is best, but I'm mainly listening to Böhm's, which is wonderful. But I've also heard parts by Abbado and the film version conducted by Bruno Maderna. I will listen entirely to Böhm, then to Abbado, and then I will decide. It has been said that Mitropoulos and Boulez's recordings are full of inaccuracies. Also, if anyone is interested, there's also a Barenboim recording of Wozzeck.
I don't even know the plot of Lulu, and have never heard anything of it, so I will not talk about it (and don't talk to me about Lulu!)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I have the version by Mitropoulos but I haven't had the will to play it yet.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

I like Böhm's three recordings with Walter Berry, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Geraint Evans a lot. _Wozzeck_ is a work of great extremes, so perhaps Böhm's experience as a seasoned conductor of Mozart and Richard Strauss allowed him to imbue his readings of the work with just the right blend of lyricism and expressionism.

The recording with the best sound, unsurprisingly, is the studio version on DG with Fischer-Dieskau, and it also sports an extraordinary cast of singers: Evelyn Lear, Gerhard Stolze and Fritz Wunderlich no less. The other two live recordings are worth a listen, too, if only to hear the superb assumptions of the title rôle by Berry and Evans.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Unless you're a stickler, don't let talk of inaccuracies put you off the Mitropoulos recording. It was the first complete recording of the opera, but Mitropoulos conducts with Romantic fervor, Mack Harrell's vocalism and artistry are unsurpassed, and Eileen Farrell sings Marie as beautifully as anyone ever has.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I first got to know Wozzeck on LP back in the stone age as a teenager with the classic DG recording with Fischer-Dieskau and Evelyn Lear, with Bohm and the forces of the Deutsche opera Berlin . I recently heard it on CD and it's still a terrific performance which would be really difficult to surpass . I haven't heard this live Bohm recording but would like to and haven't heard the Metzmacher recording on EMI but would also like to .


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Herbert Kegel's recording on Brilliant Classics


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Dimitri Mitropouis on Sony Heritage if you can find it.


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