# Does it get any better than a Mozart piano Sonata?



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Not for me, heavenly!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

If this where a poll, my answer would be...yes...


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

mikeh375 said:


> If this where a poll, my answer would be...yes...


haha, I'm just enjoying some Mozart Piano this early morning!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> haha, I'm just enjoying some Mozart Piano this early morning!


I've played a few in my time, they are fantastic of course.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Mozart piano sonatas contain some of the most original Classical sonatas and for any period sonatas, that were never overwrought (unlike many Romantic and later examples), yet inherently accessible to listeners. His peer, Franz Joseph Haydn was equally gifted. Listening to the works performed on a fortepiano emulates Classicism at its best.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Heavenly and so very new and original.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

From my own point of view, there is better Mozart and better piano sonatas, but I absolutely endorse the notion of listening to a particular piece of music and thinking, in the moment, "it doesn't get better than this".


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

mikeh375 said:


> I've played a few in my time, they are fantastic of course.


Mozart is my favourite composer but this is what it took for me to fully appreciate the piano sonatas. They mostly didn't strike me as full dress Mozart until I went back to lessons two or three years ago. My teacher assigned me the A major sonata early on, as part of her campaign to get my very undisciplined playing back under control (I'd always played, but had stopped formal lessons when I left school nearly half a century earlier). I loved it and in due course asked to work on its immediate successor, K332 in F major, my favourite of them all. The music school I go to has a concert planned for when we all fully emerge from lockdown, in which I'm down to play the finale of K332. There may be greater music out there than the Mozart sonatas but IMHO not a lot that's more purely and simply enjoyable.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Does it get any better than a Mozart piano Sonata?


Imho, yes it does...but each to his/her own.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mozart piano sonatas I think are pieces that are very well-known, but few know intimately what's special about them. For example, K.533 and its chromatic harmony, to me, is clearly an antecedent for Wagner's; and not even Beethoven sonatas (which are more highly regarded by many) get as "striking" as K.533/ii, when it comes to this matter:



hammeredklavier said:


> look at the ways to reach climax (before falling with arpeggios to the reprise of the initial material) in both Wagner and Mozart (sonata K.533), with a 7th chord built on F.
> Wagner uses a half-diminished 7th. Mozart uses a dominant 7th.
> 
> 
> ...


But if you look through old threads on this forum, you won't see a single post (other than mine) discussing this. Instead, there are hundreds of posts saying the same old things over and over: "there are better piano sonatas and better Mozart pieces", "K.311 is pleasant", "K.457 sounds like Beethoven's pathetique", etc.
Not to take anything away from Beethoven; people always talk about how Beethoven is "harder to understand", but his Op.111 is something that "everyone knows and loves" whereas the chromatic part-writing of Mozart K.497/iii (0:54, 3:34, 7:42) is something that never gets discussed. I think Mozart and Beethoven are simply "different" composers; they can't really be "compared" to determine who is better; the same goes for their concertos. (I also respect certain people's opinions that Fidelio is special for its "expressions of humanism").


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Does it get any better than a Mozart piano Sonata?


Obviously YES!
It's a matter of taste.
I listen to them from time to time.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Yes. Mozart piano concertos.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> Mozart piano sonatas I think are pieces that are very well-known, but few know intimately what's special about them. For example, K.533 and its chromatic harmony, to me, is clearly an antecedent for Wagner's; and not even Beethoven sonatas (which are more highly regarded by many) get as "striking" as K.533/ii, when it comes to this matter:
> 
> But if you look through old threads on this forum, you won't see a single post (other than mine) discussing this. Instead, there are hundreds of posts saying the same old things over and over: "there are better piano sonatas and better Mozart pieces", "K.311 is pleasant", "K.457 sounds like Beethoven's pathetique", etc.
> Not to take anything away from Beethoven; people always talk about how Beethoven is "harder to understand", but his Op.111 is something that "everyone knows and loves" whereas the chromatic part-writing of Mozart K.497/iii (0:54, 3:34, 7:42) is something that never gets discussed. I think Mozart and Beethoven are simply "different" composers; they can't really be "compared" to determine who is better; the same goes for their concertos. (I also respect certain people's opinions that Fidelio is special for its "expressions of humanism").


Thank you for mentioning K497. If I had heard it before I'd forgotten.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

> I think Mozart and Beethoven are simply "different" composers; they can't really be "compared" to determine who is better.


Yet you have posted in the thread asking if classical music is better than pop as if they can be compared despite these genres being even more different than Mozart and Beethoven.

*My personal subjective opinion*: Mozart's keyboard sonatas are his least interesting music. His operas are his best work, then his concertos, then his chamber music.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

My personal ranking:

Sacred Choral
Concertos
Chamber Music
Operas
Solo Keyboard
Symphonies


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> Yet you have posted in the thread asking if classical music is better than pop as if they can be compared despite these genres being even more different than Mozart and Beethoven.


When? I do remember saying John Cage is not "classical music" though. Do you consider John Cage a great composer?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> When? I do remember saying John Cage is not "classical music" though. Do you consider John Cage a great composer?


I remember your posts since several of them were addressed to me:

#502, 529, 540, 561, 588, 589, 600 ... there may have been more, both earlier and later. Anyway - it doesn't matter since everybody on TC is inconsistent.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> Mozart piano sonatas I think are pieces that are very well-known, but few know intimately what's special about them. For example, K.533 and its chromatic harmony, to me, is clearly an antecedent for Wagner's; and not even Beethoven sonatas (which are more highly regarded by many) get as "striking" as K.533/ii, when it comes to this matter ... But if you look through old threads on this forum, you won't see a single post (other than mine) discussing this. Instead, there are hundreds of posts saying the same old things over and over: "there are better piano sonatas and better Mozart pieces", "K.311 is pleasant", "K.457 sounds like Beethoven's pathetique", etc.


Yes, I've played K. 533 and agree that the anguished upward striving in the excerpt from the 2nd movement is way ahead of its time. Meanwhile, the timidity on TalkClassical over calling things "better than" let alone "great," and over doing any level of analysis that might result in some saying they feel "left out," is reducing our scope day by day.


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

Check out this recording of a 1905 piano roll (which was therefore a bit more robotic than the actual performance must've been) made by Carl Reinecke of Mozart KV 537, who was around 80 at the time, and whose style was not regarded as anything out of the ordinary. Wild!


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Bulldog said:


> My personal ranking:
> 
> Sacred Choral
> Concertos
> ...


Even the last three?


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

"Does it get any better than a Mozart piano Sonata?"

Yes.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Even the last three?


Yes. I think very highly of Mozart's symphonies, but he was outstanding in all genres.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

For me, yes it does.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Still think his sonatas don't showcase him at his best. Opera, piano concerti, later symphonies, some chamber.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Thank you for mentioning K497. If I had heard it before I'd forgotten.


Yea, the 1st movement is one of the most expansive sonata-allegro movements in Mozart.



Bulldog said:


> Solo Keyboard


People often forget though, there's a lot more to his solo keyboard music than sonatas; K.511 is in my view his greatest keyboard work. 9 variations on a minuet by Duport K.573 is another must-listen.



hammeredklavier said:


>






^at *8:47*, this always reminds me of:
"I know of no other composer as fundamentally transformed while writing in minor keys, and none except Gesualdo and Wagner, who made such unforgettable use of chromaticism. (For Wagner himself, Mozart was 'the great Chromatiker'.)"
< Music, Sense and Nonsense: Collected Essays and Lectures / Alfred Brendel / P.14>


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

^ Personally this is probably my favourite solo piano piece by Mozart. I find K511 a bit too repetitive and predictable after a while.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> Still think his sonatas don't showcase him at his best. Opera, piano concerti, later symphonies, some chamber.







On the contrary, I think it's the Da ponte operas and concertos, (and the clarinet quintet, and K.452) that are slightly "overhyped" (compared to say, stuff like K.546), when it comes to Mozart. In K.537**, Mozart didn't even write the solo parts completely, and the frequent cadenza sections (where we're forced to hear random improvisations by performers) in the concertos seem a bit "banal" to me (although it was a common practice of the time). And while stuff like Figaro** is beautiful in many parts, I can honestly find just as much wonderful stuff (solos and ensembles) in his early catholic music, which is pretty much "mini-operas" with no recitatives. "Sancta maria" and "agnus dei" from litaniae K.195, or "confitebor tibi", "laudate pueri", and "laudate dominum" from vesperae K.321 come to mind. Remember, none of the da ponte operas was Mozart's own personal favorite opera.
**I mean they're all good stuff, but there's no reason they should always be held up as "absolute #1" when discussing Mozart's best works. (I feel many people's interest in Mozart is disproportionately focused on those works.)
People often compare his sonatas with J. Haydn's as if J. Haydn's are just as good (as ArtMusic also did in this thread), but that seems a bit ridiculous to me. None of J. Haydn's last movements is as thorough as Mozart K.497/iii.
Also, take a look at:
https://www.talkclassical.com/69632-one-movement-sonata-cycle.html#post2002285


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

The concertos were written for Mozart to play, the sonatas more with students and publication in mind. The sonatas are wonderful, a few are overplayed. My impression is that Mozart's "fluency" attracts some and repels others. His natural musical ability was astonishing, though we now know the miracle stories were over the top. As a performer he was known for improvisation and style, and he deplored the thunderous virtuosity that was starting to emerge in piano performance. Playing and teaching Mozart, I associate his fluency with good tone, lyricism, technically secure passagework, and avoiding bad habits that "hang up" the pianist in any way. I don't know details of how Mozart played, or generally of pianism on the fortepiano. But the sense of difficulty in playing Mozart seems to come back to this "fluency." If there is a flaw in your technique it will really stand out -- for me it was tightness in and around the shoulder; correcting that made a huge difference. If you are fluent in technique but lack expression, that will really stand out. If you tend to excess and exaggeration, your lack of taste will ruin your Mozart. Some of my favourite sonatas are K. 310, K. 533/494, K. 570, and K. 576.


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## paragraph7 (Mar 4, 2021)

A bit off topic but, are the Serenades considered Concertos, Chamber music or are they a category onto their own? 

Many of them are sublime.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Roger Knox said:


> The concertos were written for Mozart to play, the sonatas more with students and publication in mind.


I don't think it matters. Bach's Well-tempered clavier, as Bach specified on the title page, was "for the profit and use of musical youth desirous of learning, and especially for the pastime of those already skilled in this study". The Scarbo from Ravel's Gaspard de la nuit may be "harder" to play, but that doesn't say anything about its artistic quality with respect to the Bach.
Mozart wrote his concertos for his own subscription concerts (one of his biggest sources of income) and hence the reason why in K.537, he left much of the solo parts blank on the score. What does this say about the artistic quality?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

paragraph7 said:


> A bit off topic but, are the Serenades considered Concertos, Chamber music or are they a category onto their own?
> 
> Many of them are sublime.


I consider them a separate category; they don't fit well into any of the usual suspects.


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## EmperorOfIceCream (Jan 3, 2020)

Yes... Haydn sonatas!


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

paragraph7 said:


> A bit off topic but, are the Serenades considered Concertos, Chamber music or are they a category onto their own?
> 
> Many of them are sublime.


Word! You are absolutely correct. I've listened to them frequently over the last year, and have especially loved the Wind Serenades. I've also wondered if it's chamber music, considering the forces involved would usually qualify. Nonetheless, I believe the intent of many of these Serenades puts them in a separate category, that is, "entertainment music." Love K375, K388 and the "Gran Partita."


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EmperorOfIceCream said:


> Yes... Haydn sonatas!


You might as well just say "J.C. Bach sonatas!" :lol:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SearsPoncho said:


> Word! You are absolutely correct. I've listened to them frequently over the last year, and have especially loved the Wind Serenades. I've also wondered if it's chamber music, considering the forces involved would usually qualify. Nonetheless, I believe the intent of many of these Serenades puts them in a separate category, that is, "entertainment music." Love K375, K388 and the "Gran Partita."


Also try K.320, and the divertimentos, K.251, K.287, and particularly K.334, K.563, if you haven't already.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> You might as well just say "J.C. Bach sonatas!" :lol:


Well the same could be said of the Mozart sonatas. Those examples of Haydn are supposed to be bad? And then you counter with a Mozart two-piano sonata?


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## LesCyclopes (Sep 16, 2016)

It gets a lot better.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

I'm an unrepentant Mozart addict and I enjoy the piano sonatas. For my fellow Mozart maniacs that don't believe his sonatas are top-tier Mozart, I would suggest his mature Sonatas for Piano and Violin. The addition of a beautiful, cantabile instrument, like the violin, is very satisfying and enjoyable. There's an excellent two volume set from Decca featuring Henryk Szeryng and Ingrid Haebler.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

myself said:


> And then you counter with a Mozart two-piano sonata?


May bad. It's a sonata for four hands.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I don't think it does get better than a Mozart sonata.

See what you think of this.






K281. It could win a fking piano competition, and no one on the jury would need to walk out. The music can survive this type of treatment - I mean it's Mozart so there's no need for bold and imaginative interventions to make it interesting to hear. That's the enlightenment from the recording - just how satisfying, how beautiful, mainstream Mozart can be.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Even as a huge Mozart fan I came to the piano sonatas late after years of believing them to be lesser Mozart! I woke up on a long haul flight listening on my iPod and drifting in and out of sleep - Gulda was playing one of the sonatas and I knew I was hearing something truly great. There are many great recordings, too, and also many sets. As well as Gulda, Arrau is terrific (the man had a real feel for Mozart) and I also like the Say set a lot and, of course, Uchida. I'm less taken with the Pires set but it is certainly in no way bad.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> May bad. It's a sonata for four hands.


It doesn't matter. People even compare harpsichord works with piano works.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I consider them among my favorite works and I prefer them to the piano sonatas of Beethoven, Haydn, Hummel, Clementi etc.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Roger Knox said:


> But the sense of difficulty in playing Mozart seems to come back to this "fluency." If there is a flaw in your technique it will really stand out


Boy, is that ever true. Mozart's music generally is easy to play -- badly, or in a lackluster, mediocre way. Getting to its full potential is like climbing Mount Everest. No fake emoting, overcooked dynamics, or crude rubato substituted for real phrasing will work with Mozart. It can get very frustrating, actually. As for the piano sonatas, I listened to them all in order not long ago. What surprised me was, perhaps apart from no. 1, every single one was immediately familiar to me as a famous classical standard. Yet, you are right again, they aren't nearly as complex or ambitious as the concertos.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

fluteman said:


> Yet, you are right again, they aren't nearly as complex or ambitious as the concertos.


That was kind of like the "standard" at the time. But it's also interesting to look at stuff like:
One-movement Sonata Cycle


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> That was kind of like the "standard" at the time. But it's also interesting to look at stuff like:
> One-movement Sonata Cycle


I wasn't trying to say that the sonatas are musically inferior or easier that the concertos. The _initial_ purpose of writing a sonata for Mozart was different than writing a concerto. As time passed and Mozart's artistic powers grew things changed. In some cases the concertos became more introspective, while the sonatas became more difficult pianistically and complex in composition.


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