# Multi-LvB Cycle Conductors



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Which conductors have recorded at least two complete Beethoven symphony cycles? I am only doing this out of curiosity, but perhaps more will come of it. If anyone cares to fill in which orchestra for each, have at it. I would like dates of the cycles too, so correct me if I am wrong. Some cycles are recorded over multiple years so we can either post a range or an average.

I can list three off the top of my head:

Arturo Toscanini: 2 cycles, 1930s and ~1950.

Herbert von Karajan: *4* cycles,* 1950s*, 1963, 1977, 1985

Simon Rattle: 2002, 2016

EDITED per post #2 below to include Karajan's 4th cycle.

What else but that we NEED! another Beethoven thread, eh?


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## Rmathuln (Mar 21, 2018)

Karajan did 4 (you missed one for EMI in the 1950s)
Bernard Haitink (3)
Claudio Abbado (2)
Leonard Bernstein (2)
Eugen Jochum (3)
Daniel Barenboim (2)
Kurt Masur (2)
Georg Solti (2) (I think)
Bruno Walter (CSO and NYPO)


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

Bernstein (NY Philharmonic and Vienna) and Jochum (Concertgebouw, Berlin/Bavarian RSO, and LSO).


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Actually, Claudio Abbado did three cycles, not two: in addition to his 1st Vienna Philharmonic DG cycle, he recorded two Berlin cycles--the first on CD, which he quickly became dissatisfied with, and a 2nd cycle soon after in Rome, released on DVD & eventually on CD.

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-...9018&sr=1-5&keywords=claudio+abbado+beethoven
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sy...9018&sr=1-1&keywords=claudio+abbado+beethoven
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-10...9018&sr=1-8&keywords=claudio+abbado+beethoven

Eugen Jochum also recorded three cycles, not two--the first with the Berlin Philharmonic & Bavarian RSO, on DG, the second with Concertgebouw in the 1960s, on Philips, and a third with the London Symphony Orchestra in the 1970s, on EMI (Edit: I now see D Smith beat me to it, oh well...).

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-...49425&sr=1-17&keywords=eugen+jochum+beethoven

https://www.amazon.com/Original-Mas...749392&sr=1-4&keywords=eugen+jochum+beethoven

https://www.amazon.com/Eugen-Jochum...749392&sr=1-1&keywords=eugen+jochum+beethoven
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Ne...49392&sr=1-11&keywords=eugen+jochum+beethoven

To add:

Roger Norrington--2 cycles, his first a period cycle with the London Classical Players, on EMI, and a second HIP modern instrument cycle with the Stuttgart Radio S.O.

Herbert Blomstedt--2 cycles, the first with the Staatskapelle Dresden, and a 2nd, recently with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra.

Sir Charles Mackerras--2 cycles, the first with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, on EMI, and a 2nd with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra & Philharmonia Orchestra, on Hyperion.

Kurt Masur--2 cycles--both with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, on Philips (though the 1st cycle was also released by Pro Arte and Pentatone). Masur's 2nd cycle generated excitement because it was the first to use the new critical editions of the scores by C.F. Peters.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Frans Brüggen also recorded two cycles.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Rmathuln said:


> Karajan did 4 (you missed one for EMI in the 1950s)


Thanks. I fixed it in the opening post. I suspect that 4th cycle from the 1950s is hard to get ahold of. Perhaps was only on vinyl.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

You missed out Scherchen (Westminster and Lugano Live), Asahina (7 - I have 3 of them the rest are Japan only uber rare releases), Antonini (at least 2 Japan again), Barenboim Berlin and Divan , Iimori (3 mega rare cycles from Japan, )Iwaki (3 again from Japan) and Gielen (both SWR). That's off the top of my head. There may be more.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Oops, missed out Klemperer (live and studio).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Thanks. I fixed it in the opening post. I suspect that 4th cycle from the 1950s is hard to get ahold of. Perhaps was only on vinyl.


 No you can get hold of it on CD. I have it and in spite of a wondrous performance of the pastoral - the best Karajan did on disc - the 1963 us generally preferable. And of course the sound is more advanced


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Günther Wand (one with the Gürzenich orch.Köln, some of it available on Testament, and one with the NDR Symphony orch. Hamburg).


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

In fact, there's a fifth complete cycle from the K man. Recorded from live concerts in Tokyo in 1977. IMHO, like his other cycles, it's more a collector's item than a go-to cycle. But even five complete cycles do not beat the number of his No. 9s. I counted ten including the five from the cycles. :lol:

Amazon.co.jp


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

What are the differences in the Haitink versions? He strikes me as a conductor whose interpretations wouldn't change that much.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

bigshot said:


> What are the differences in the Haitink versions? He strikes me as a conductor whose interpretations wouldn't change that much.


Firstly the LSO cycle is live so it's a bit less 'polished' than his previous cycles. Also he rethought some of his previous readings and so tempos are often brisker, outer movements less controlled, phrasing and rhythms have definitely been influenced by period performances and the timpani use hard sticks, The brass are definitely more intrusive and the recording is top-notch. Its my favourite of his 3 cycles by some measure but his other cycles are not too bad (but nowt special).


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

premont said:


> Günther Wand (one with the Gürzenich orch.Köln, some of it available on Testament, and one with the NDR Symphony orch. Hamburg).


The Testament Wand / Koln recordings really cant count as a cycle as there's no symphony 6 and 8.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Merl said:


> The Testament Wand / Koln recordings really cant count as a cycle as there's no symphony 6 and 8.


I have never explored Wand's first Beethoven symphony set (Les Discophiles Francais - rereleased by Testament), but I always thought it was complete. Maybe Testament has not rereleased all the recordings. Do you know for sure, that the symphonies 6 and 8 weren't recorded?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

premont said:


> I have never explored Wand's first Beethoven symphony set (Les Discophiles Francais - rereleased by Testament), but I always thought it was complete. Maybe Testament has not rereleased all the recordings. Do you know for sure, that the symphonies 6 and 8 weren't recorded?


I'm pretty sure that's the case. In 1954, frustrated by lack of work, Wand signed up to one of the first of the new record 'clubs', Club Français du Disque, for which he would make some 40 recordings. With tie-ups to similar clubs in Europe, sales of up to 20,000 copies could be expected for each release, so it seemed a good idea at the time. As a stratagy, it secured Wand an outlet and an income, but it effectively put him off-limits to major record companies for the next 25 years and practically ruined his recording career. Francais had already had the 6th and 8th symphonies recorded under a different conductor, Fritz Lehmann, so didn't bother doing them again with Wand. Shame! I've only heard the 9th on Testament and it's excellent (even for a mono recording). I've yet to hear the rest.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

premont said:


> I have never explored Wand's first Beethoven symphony set (Les Discophiles Francais - rereleased by Testament), but I always thought it was complete. Maybe Testament has not rereleased all the recordings. Do you know for sure, that the symphonies 6 and 8 weren't recorded?


I'm pretty sure that's the case. In 1954, frustrated by lack of work, Wand signed up to one of the first of the new record 'clubs', Club Français du Disque, for which he would make some 40 recordings. With tie-ups to similar clubs in Europe, sales of up to 20,000 copies could be expected for each release. As a strategy, it secured Wand an outlet and an income, but it effectively put him off-limits to major record companies for the next 25 years and effectively wrecked his recording career. Francais had already had the 6th and 8th symphonies recorded under a different conductor, Fritz Lehmann, so didn't bother doing them again with Wand. Shame! I've only heard the 9th on Testament and it's excellent (even for a mono recording). I've yet to hear the rest.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Thanks, *Merl*, for the clarification.

BTW Lehmann's LvB symphony 6 and 8 aren't that bad. And it is also a pity, that he didn't get the opportunity to record all the LvB symphonies.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

premont said:


> Thanks, *Merl*, for the clarification.
> 
> BTW Lehmann's LvB symphony 6 and 8 aren't that bad. And it is also a pity, that he didn't get the opportunity to record all the LvB symphonies.


Never heard them. Therres a Lehmann LvB symphony 2 knocking around too. Not heard that either.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Takashi Asahina completed 7 cycles.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Takashi Asahina completed 7 cycles.
> 
> http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html


I've got 3 of them the rest are rarer than rocking-horse *****. I don't think 2 of the earliest even made it to CD (or if so we're only released in Japan and are now deleted). Tbh, if you've heard one Asahina set you've heard them all (think Furtwangler meets Klemperer). Not saying that's a bad thing, but (like Karajan) very little changed from cycle to cycle. The Exton set is very well recorded (see my Beethoven cycle reviews for more details).


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## nospoonboy (Jan 27, 2016)

And now we have a 5th cycle for Karajan: '66
https://tower.jp/item/4890323/ベートーヴェン交響曲全曲連続演奏会


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

nospoonboy said:


> And now we have a 5th cycle for Karajan: '66
> https://tower.jp/item/4890323/ベートーヴェン交響曲全曲連続演奏会


I must hear that. Intrigued.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

bigshot said:


> What are the differences in the Haitink versions? He strikes me as a conductor whose interpretations wouldn't change that much.


Haitink developed quite a bit in his core repertoire. In addition to what Merl rightly said about his Beethoven III with LSO, Haitink also made many Mahler and Bruckner recordings. Actually, his first studio cycles (Mahler & Bruckner on Philips were just re-released, Beethoven I/LPO on Decca) are not the ones to have. Haitink recorded Beethoven II with RCO, just before Harnoncourt 'took over'. And with the LSO, he recorded his third with more HIP influences. Haitink himself was not at all pleased with his first Beethoven cycle with LPO for Decca, so he was likely absolutely happy to be able to re-record it twice. His second (incomplete) Mahler cycle (Live Christmas concerts with RCO) is an improvement over the first Philips studio version and his third (incomplete) cycle on Philips (with BPO) was also an improvement. And there are several separate recordings of Bruckner and Mahler symphonies.

You will hear a constantly improving interpretation with Haitink in his core repertoire, so his latest recordings generally will be the best, unlike many other conductors. I heard Haitink conduct Mahler 9 live last year with the RCO (after multiple heralded previous recordings) and it was a revelation, less drama, more natural and more convincing. Hopefully it will be released!


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> You will hear a constantly improving interpretation with Haitink in his core repertoire, so his latest recordings generally will be the best, unlike many other conductors. I heard Haitink conduct Mahler 9 live last year with the RCO (after multiple heralded previous recordings) and it was a revelation, less drama, more natural and more convincing. Hopefully it will be released!


I've had the opposite experience. I've been most happy with the first Mahler and Bruckner cycles Haitink recorded.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

NLAdriaan said:


> Haitink developed quite a bit in his core repertoire. In addition to what Merl rightly said about his Beethoven III with LSO, Haitink also made many Mahler and Bruckner recordings. Actually, his first studio cycles (Mahler & Bruckner on Philips were just re-released, Beethoven I/LPO on Decca) are not the ones to have. Haitink recorded Beethoven II with RCO, just before Harnoncourt 'took over'. And with the LSO, he recorded his third with more HIP influences. Haitink himself was not at all pleased with his first Beethoven cycle with LPO for Decca, so he was likely absolutely happy to be able to re-record it twice. His second (incomplete) Mahler cycle (Live Christmas concerts with RCO) is an improvement over the first Philips studio version and his third (incomplete) cycle on Philips (with BPO) was also an improvement. And there are several separate recordings of Bruckner and Mahler symphonies.
> 
> You will hear a constantly improving interpretation with Haitink in his core repertoire, so his latest recordings generally will be the best, unlike many other conductors. I heard Haitink conduct Mahler 9 live last year with the RCO (after multiple heralded previous recordings) and it was a revelation, less drama, more natural and more convincing. Hopefully it will be released!


I agree. I think Haitink has improved over the years. For me his Beethoven cycles got progressively better.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Thanks. I fixed it in the opening post. I suspect that 4th cycle from the 1950s is hard to get ahold of. Perhaps was only on vinyl.


It is on CD in a Warner box.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2019)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Thanks. I fixed it in the opening post. I suspect that 4th cycle from the 1950s is hard to get ahold of. Perhaps was only on vinyl.


It was one of the relatively early CD releases, as well as having been included in two generations of complete Karajan box sets. (I have one of those.) There are a core of fans who think the Philharmonia recordings were Karajan's high point.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I have Karajan's four studio sets.

1950s mono with Philarmonia set new standards of playing though the interpretations are still developing. They came in for criticism because Klemperer was still the standard with his plodding tempi but this cycle holds up well with a superb 6.

1963 is the high water mark despite a 6 that doesn't quite come off in the first movement. 

1977 see a development and preference is personal taste although the 6 is superb here and the 9 the best of disc imo

1982 despite a superb 3 is generally a waste of time. It isn't bad. Just neither performances or recordings add anything to what we already have.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2019)

DavidA said:


> I have Karajan's four studio sets.
> 
> 1950s mono with Philarmonia set new standards of playing though the interpretations are still developing. They came in for criticism because Klemperer was still the standard with his plodding tempi but this cycle holds up well with a superb 6.
> 
> ...


Generally agree with that assessment, although I have not listened much to the Philharmonia. The 80's cycle came from his obsession with digital recording and his video production company, Telemondial. Ironically, the early digital sound seems less satisfying than the 70's cycle. When I've listened to the 80's it seems fairly similar to the 70's, with the odd little detail here and there done differently.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> I have Karajan's four studio sets.
> 
> 1950s mono with Philarmonia set new standards of playing though the interpretations are still developing. They came in for criticism because Klemperer was still the standard with his plodding tempi but this cycle holds up well with a superb 6.
> 
> ...


I too have all four of these and generally concur. The final cycle isn't as bad as many make out though, I think it's just knowing the earlier efforts and seeing precious little new in these that tends to count against them. And the 70s set is definitely the best recorded of the four, and all-in-all my favourite from HvK.

Just a bit confused though: how could Klemperer be seen as the standard? True he had recorded a lot of Beethoven beforehand, but his cycle dates from the late 50s to late 60s, whereas Karajan I is early 50s and predates the ones I know (and I would take issue with the "plodding" bit too!) ....or were the Klemperers recorded to counteract the efforts of Herbie the young upstart??


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

CnC Bartok said:


> I too have all four of these and generally concur. The final cycle isn't as bad as many make out though, I think it's just knowing the earlier efforts and seeing precious little new in these that tends to count against them. And the 70s set is definitely the best recorded of the four, and all-in-all my favourite from HvK.
> 
> Just a bit confused though: *how could Klemperer be seen as the standard*? True he had recorded a lot of Beethoven beforehand, but his cycle dates from the late 50s to late 60s, whereas Karajan I is early 50s and predates the ones I know (and I would take issue with the "plodding" bit too!) ....or were the Klemperers recorded to counteract the efforts of Herbie the young upstart??


No they definitely were though. Klemperer was the ideal way to conduct Beethoven in the eyes of the critics and London concert goers.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

DavidA said:


> No they definitely were though. Klemperer was the ideal way to conduct Beethoven in the eyes of the critics and London concert goers.


If my memory is reliable... back in the 80s, during my stint in the UK, when EMI re-issued Klemperer's DMM re-mastered LPs, Gramophone and BBC Radio 3 were singing all the praises for it, and that convinced me, a pretty much brainless juvenile back then, that it was _the_ yardstick and therefore I bought those LPs. You see, listening to the grand old master was a cool thing to do (esp. when others were listening to WHAM!). Having said that I also bought Karajan's digital LP box without a thought around the same time because that was even cooler! :lol:

Over the years I have turned from a Karajan faithful to a Karajan doubter to nowadays when I appreciate a lot more of his music making beneath the glossy surface. I have got only five of his cycles (EMI, DG x 3, TokyoFM) plus a few separate standalone releases. I feel that his recordings did not necessarily improve, or degrade, over the years. They are all rather different. However, it is his live recordings that have started appearing in recent years, that I find more interesting in terms of showcasing what he could/would do outside the studio. E.g. IMO his 1978 Live No. 7 (Palexa) has reached a higher level of intensity than his studio recordings despite its poorer sonics, or his 1988 Live No. 4 (DG/NHK) that has got everything rounded off, even more so than what he usually did in the studio. TBH his Beethoven is not really my cup of tea, but I find it rather interesting to explore.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2019)

DavidA said:


> No they definitely were though. Klemperer was the ideal way to conduct Beethoven in the eyes of the critics and London concert goers.


Slow and clunky may have been the standard in those days, but there were other conductors doing slow and clunky to various degrees. Furtwangler, Mengelberg, Krips, Toscannini.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Slow and clunky may have been the standard in those days, but there were other conductors doing slow and clunky to various degrees. Furtwangler, Mengelberg, Krips, Toscannini.


Slow and clunky is not what I would call Toscanini's set! :lol:


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Slow and clunky is not what I would call Toscanini's set! :lol:


Varying degrees, I said.  I recall Karajan saying his goal in '63 was to reproduce Toscanini's energy combined with tremendous weight.


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