# Did Weber put a reference to Beethovens 17th sonata in his Konzertstück In F Minor



## Razumovskymas

I hear in Weber's piece a short fraction (in another key) that sounds to me like an exact copy of the opening of Beethoven Tempest sonata.

it lasts only 2 seconds an its 2 times the same ±8 descending notes played in a fast tempo.

In Weber's Piece it starts exactly at 5:55 in this youtube clip






In Beethoven's sonata it's immediately after the first slow opening notes.






Is this a reference to the Beethoven piece? Is it a coïncidence? Is it a common musical figure?

thanks for your opinion!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Sounds like a direct quote to me. An "hommage", evidently.


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## EdwardBast

Razumovskymas said:


> I hear in Weber's piece a short fraction (in another key) that sounds to me like an exact copy of the opening of Beethoven Tempest sonata.
> 
> Is this a reference to the Beethoven piece? Is it a coïncidence? Is it a common musical figure?
> 
> thanks for your opinion!


I meant to respond to this the day the site went funny and then forgot once it was up again.

It is not an exact copy in that the Weber figure begins on an offbeat before beat one, whereas the Beethoven begins on beat one. I would guess the parallel is coincidental. The figure is just a descending fragment of a minor scale.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

EdwardBast said:


> I would guess the parallel is coincidental. The figure is just a descending fragment of a minor scale.


If it were a one-off phrase I might be inclined to agree, but it's actually a _repeated_ fragment, at more-or-less the same tempo/dynamic as we find in Beethoven's sonata. Furthermore, the corresponding figure in the _Tempest_ is that sonata's most arresting and memorable feature - practically its "signature", and precisely the phrase one would seek to emulate if that were one's intention.


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## EdwardBast

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> If it were a one-off phrase I might be inclined to agree, but it's actually a _repeated_ fragment, at more-or-less the same tempo/dynamic as we find in Beethoven's sonata. Furthermore, the corresponding figure in the _Tempest_ is that sonata's most arresting and memorable feature - practically its "signature", and precisely the phrase one would seek to emulate if that were one's intention.


You certainly could be right. But it is only heard twice and the descending figure it elaborates is heard in eighth notes in close proximity, suggesting Weber might merely have been adding rhythmic variety to a repeated phrase. Hard to say if it was intentional or not. It is possible he just heard the similarity and said "Huh. That sounds like Beethoven. Interesting." Would that count as homage?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

EdwardBast said:


> It is possible he just heard the similarity and said "Huh. That sounds like Beethoven. Interesting." Would that count as homage?


Homage by default/serendipity, perhaps? I don't see why not


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