# Examples of ALL voice types with core, squillo and power



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

*Examples of lighter voices with core, squillo and power*

it's no secret I take issue with the overly head voice dominated style of singing that foregoes full engagement of the cords. a lot of people will say "but she sings like that because she's a lyric voice type", but the technique of good singing is the same regardless of voice type. yes, different voice types excel a bit more at certain things than others, but there is a certain depth and power which is attainable for all voices.

we'll start things off with a lyric soprano: Mary Costa. do you hear anything croon-y here? does this sound like a voice that can only sing lightly? that lacks squillo or chest voice? no, no and no. her voice is sturdy, strong, developed from top to bottom and possessing both the undertones and the overtones to carry over long distances.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

lyric tenor: Beniamino Gigli. hell of a lot more power and squillo than any "dramatic tenor" around today


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

leggiero tenor: Herman Jadlowker yup. Rossini tenor used to be sung by MEN! (while we're at it, that clean coloratura. omg  )


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

coloratura soprano: Elvira de Hidalgo "even the light sopranos, once upon a time, had very big chest tones. It was part of the method of bel canto, it just had to be" ~Maria Callas


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> it's no secret I take issue with the overly head voice dominated style of singing that foregoes full engagement of the cords. a lot of people will say "but she sings like that because she's a lyric voice type", but the technique of good singing is the same regardless of voice type. yes, different voice types excel a bit more at certain things than others, but there is a certain depth and power which is attainable for all voices.
> 
> we'll start things off with a lyric soprano: Mary Costa. do you hear anything croon-y here? does this sound like a voice that can only sing lightly? that lacks squillo or chest voice? no, no and no. her voice is sturdy, strong, developed from top to bottom and possessing both the undertones and the overtones to carry over long distances.


She has a type of sound that you would hear a lot in the mid 20th century but you never hear now. Jane Froman, the classically trained pop singer, had a balanced sound like this as did Helen Traubel. You hear it no more.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> ...*yup. Rossini tenor used to be sung by MEN!*...


WTF does that mean??


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> WTF does that mean??


You know...MEN! Loud, obese, sociopathic beasts who think with their genitals, abuse women, renege on business deals, cheat at taxes, exacerbate racism, incite insurrections, and pretend to have won elections they've lost in countries noted for weird religious cults, racist self-styled militias, attacks on nonwhite people and gender-nonconforming individuals, and frequent mass murders carried out with military-style weapons.

Nobody sings Rossini like those guys.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

Becca said:


> WTF does that mean??


Mario del Monaco, as we all know, was a leading Rossini specialist! :lol:


----------



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> You know...MEN! Loud, obese, sociopathic beasts who think with their genitals, abuse women, renege on business deals, cheat at taxes, exacerbate racism, incite insurrections, and pretend to have won elections they've lost in countries noted for weird religious cults, racist self-styled militias, attacks on nonwhite people and gender-nonconforming individuals, and frequent mass murders carried out with military-style weapons.
> 
> Nobody sings Rossini like those guys.


:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Becca said:


> WTF does that mean??


it means they sounded sturdy and confident rather than whiny and unsupported. the notion that Rossini was supposed to be sung with super light technique is a modern invention. Rossini singers up until at least the 70s had big, power voices regardless of voice type.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> She has a type of sound that you would hear a lot in the mid 20th century but you never hear now. Jane Froman, the classically trained pop singer, had a balanced sound like this as did Helen Traubel. You hear it no more.


exactly. balance between the chest and head voice. both were well developed. Mary Costa is a criminally underrated singer. those who do know her know her as the voice of Aurora, but in real life, she was both better looking than Aurora and a much better singer in other repertoire.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> exactly. balance between the chest and head voice. both were well developed. Mary Costa is a criminally underrated singer. those who do know her know her as the voice of Aurora, but in real life, she was both better looking than Aurora and a much better singer in other repertoire.


Aurora? Disney? She has a glorious voice. Only knew the name.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> it means they sounded sturdy and confident rather than whiny and unsupported. the notion that Rossini was supposed to be sung with super light technique is a modern invention. Rossini singers up until at least the 70s had big, power voices regardless of voice type.


Who were some of those "men" who sang Rossini with huge voices and phenomenal coloratura? I'm particularly curious about the ones who sang before 1900, and on what occasions you heard them.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> it means they sounded sturdy and confident rather than whiny and unsupported. the notion that Rossini was supposed to be sung with super light technique is a modern invention. Rossini singers up until at least the 70s had big, power voices regardless of voice type.


Interesting that Valletta, who is generally reckoned to be the best Count on disc, didn't have a huge power voice. Neither did Alva. Who are you thinking of? Melchior? :lol:


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> Interesting that Valletta, who is generally reckoned to be the best Count on disc, didn't have a huge power voice. Neither did Alva. Who are you thinking of? Melchior? :lol:


do you have a good clip? I've never heard him, but a lighter voice can still be powerful and sturdy if used correctly. that's the point of this thread, that it should be an expectation of all kinds of voices, not just "dramatic" ones


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

humorous bonus: there are obvious problems in technique, and the entire idea of this is kinda gimmick-y, but there is actually more potential here than I here in most serious male opera singers. he has a chest voice (and, for a tenor, even some reasonably good low notes), a natural sounding placement, decent amount of space in the back of the throat (a little bit of closing as he goes higher, but most singers need to practice for years to get rid of that). it's not professional quality at the moment, but there is a lot to work with here, and it still manages to sound better than most of what I hear.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> You know...MEN! Loud, obese, sociopathic beasts who think with their genitals, abuse women, renege on business deals, cheat at taxes, exacerbate racism, incite insurrections, and pretend to have won elections they've lost in countries noted for weird religious cults, racist self-styled militias, attacks on nonwhite people and gender-nonconforming individuals, and frequent mass murders carried out with military-style weapons.
> 
> Nobody sings Rossini like those guys.


you forgot chewing tobacco, using moonshine liquor as a currency, going to NASCAR races, screaming at their kids during sporting events and going mudding in their trucks. you must do all of these to be a real man. everyone else is a woman or a hermaphrodite


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> humorous bonus: there are obvious problems in technique, and the entire idea of this is kinda gimmick-y, but there is actually more potential here than I here in most serious male opera singers. he has a chest voice (and, for a tenor, even some reasonably good low notes), a natural sounding placement, decent amount of space in the back of the throat (a little bit of closing as he goes higher, but most singers need to practice for years to get rid of that). it's not professional quality at the moment, but there is a lot to work with here, and it still manages to sound better than most of what I hear.


Who is this? What's his day job? It looks as if he specializes in female repertoire:


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Who is this? What's his day job? It looks as if he specializes in female repertoire:


a music major from Philadelphia. this just a satirical mini series where he sings female pieces and octave or so down


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> do you have a good clip? I've never heard him, but a lighter voice can still be powerful and sturdy if used correctly. that's the point of this thread, that it should be an expectation of all kinds of voices, not just "dramatic" ones


So what mighty singers are you thinking of which belt out Rossini coloratura?


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> So what mighty singers are you thinking of which belt out Rossini coloratura?


with pleasure

Shirley Verrett 





Samuel Ramey





Monica Sinclair





Montserrat Caballe





Brigitte Fassbander 





Maria Callas





Agnes Baltsa


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> with pleasure
> 
> Shirley Verrett
> 
> ...


We were talking about tenors I believe. No tenors there.


----------



## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Parley said:


> So what mighty singers are you thinking of which belt out Rossini coloratura?


I do not think BalalaikaBoy is defending the idea that singers should belt out Rossini coloratura. I think he is saying that even lighter voices, when well-coordinated and well-balanced, can possess clarity and squillo. They can therefore have more heft when needed, because the chest register plays a bigger role as the intensity in the voice increases. But as we know, most singers have forgotten the importance of coordinating the registers. It is common to hear singers performing Rossini with constricted, nasal voices (nasality is useful when trying to hit high notes with poor technique). The likes of Bartoli, DiDonato, Brownlee, Florez and Camarena are all guilty of these vocal faults. _This is Opera_ once made videos about this matter.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> We were talking about tenors I believe. No tenors there.


you believe incorrectly, we were talking about all voices. all the same, I have those too. I posted one as an early example, so three more makes four examples

Luciano Pavarotti 





Mario Lanza





Mario del Monaco


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> You know...MEN! Loud, obese, sociopathic beasts who think with their genitals, abuse women, renege on business deals, cheat at taxes, exacerbate racism, incite insurrections, and pretend to have won elections they've lost in countries noted for weird religious cults, racist self-styled militias, attacks on nonwhite people and gender-nonconforming individuals, and frequent mass murders carried out with military-style weapons.
> 
> Nobody sings Rossini like those guys.


Well oranges do come from Seville...

N.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I agree that today's singers (in general) do not have a coordinated chest register as part of their technique as singers in the past did have and rather than that being just a change in fashion or taste (which it may or may not be), it is primarily a decrease in the standard of today's operatic singing overall compared with the past.

I also would agree that singers like Bartoli and DiDonato may not be incorporating chest mechanisms in their singing as much as they could. However, that doesn't mean that they are really sopranos, perhaps they would just be better mezzos with a darker tone and more solid core. (Interestingly Didonato DOES have a darker tone in her best roles, it seems something she reserves for Bellini and Donizetti and doesn't use it as much for Handel or Rossini.)

N.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> you believe incorrectly, we were talking about all voices. all the same, I have those too. I posted one as an early example, so three more makes four examples
> 
> Luciano Pavarotti
> 
> ...


Come of it they are hardly representative of Rossini singing. I do have Pavarotti in William Tell but he didn't make a speciality of singing Rossini as far as I know. But maybe del Monaco was a regular in le Compt d'Ory?


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> you believe incorrectly, we were talking about all voices. all the same, I have those too. I posted one as an early example, so three more makes four examples
> 
> Luciano Pavarotti
> 
> ...






 I don't know what to think about Michael Spyres. His Rossini is very good, his high notes TRULY phenomenal, but supposedly he sings heavy tenor roles, but I am not sure he does them very well, never having heard him live.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't know what to think about Michael Spyres. His Rossini is very good, his high notes TRULY phenomenal, but supposedly he sings heavy tenor roles, but I am not sure he does them very well, never having heard him live.


he doesn't make the list. too nasal, closed off in the back of the throat.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> he doesn't make the list. too nasal, closed off in the back of the throat.


I'm sure he's upset! :lol:


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> Come of it they are hardly representative of Rossini singing. I do have Pavarotti in William Tell but he didn't make a speciality of singing Rossini as far as I know. But maybe del Monaco was a regular in le Compt d'Ory?


1) don't tell me to "come off it" when you asked for examples. 
2) I gave you like 10 singers, and I could easily find more. it's not like I'm cherry picking over here.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 1) don't tell me to "come off it" when you asked for examples.
> 2) I gave you like 10 singers, and I could easily find more. it's not like I'm cherry picking over here.


We were talking about tenors. You cherry picked most untypical examples to try and prove your point. Won't do!

Domingo sang Figaro but only his most dedicated fans would buy it!


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

> We were talking about tenors.


you wanted tenors, and I gave you tenors...AND sopranos, AND baritones, etc.



> You cherry picked most untypical examples to try and prove your point. Won't do!
> Domingo sang Figaro but only his most dedicated fans would buy it!


"cherry picked" huh? let's look at some more examples. vigorous, well produced voices have been doing justice to Rossini long before the "Rossini specialists" of the last two decades showed up and decided they knew what was best (and frankly, they sound quite a bit better). that brings our total up to 20 singers, and at least 15 arias and almost as many operas across almost 100 years.

please don't waste my time debating if you just intend to make cheap deflections without actually considering the evidence.

Apollo Granforte 





Ebe Stignani





Martina Arroyo





Neue Stimmen (yes. there are a few good ones today)





Rose Bampton





Ghena Dimitrova 





Nicolae Gedda





Jerry Hadley 





Luisa Tetrazzini


----------



## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Rossini sung as you say with 'core, squillo and power' can be hair-raising and terrific.

Giacomo Lauri-Volpi




There are also Tamagno, Escalais, Martinelli, Filippeschi, Pavarotti and Bonisolli in _Guglielmo Tell_

Ivan Kozlovsky




(Besides the aforementioned Jadlowker and Wunderlich recordings there are those with Anselmi, Schipa, di Stefano, Valletti, Bonisolli, Vargas and various other lyric tenors)

I'm also a fan of Pavarotti in the _Stabat Mater_ and there is this classic recording of _Domine Deus_ with Caruso


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Maybe a little history would be of use here. The forerunner of the modern tenor is thought to be Domenico Donzelli (1790 - 1873), who apparently lacked the felxibility of most tenors of the time and developed a top C in what became known as _falsetone_, a sort of head voice which was more powerful than the _falsetto_ most tenors used at that time for the topmost notes. Of course we can't know what he actually sounded like, but his singing style changed over the course of his career.

He was followed by Gilbert Duprez (1806 - 1896), who was the first tenor to sing top C in chest. Rossini didn't like him at all and famously said that he sounded like _the squawk of a capon with its throat cut_. Maybe Rossini didn't actually want his tenors to sound like "real men".


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Maybe a little history would be of use here. The forerunner of the modern tenor is thought to be Domenico Donzelli (1790 - 1873), who apparently lacked the felxibility of most tenors of the time and developed a top C in what became known as _falsetone_, a sort of head voice which was more powerful than the _falsetto_ most tenors used at that time for the topmost notes. Of course we can't know what he actually sounded like, but his singing style changed over the course of his career.
> 
> He was followed by Gilbert Duprez (1806 - 1896), who was the first tenor to sing top C in chest. Rossini didn't like him at all and famously said that he sounded like _the squawk of a capon with its throat cut_. Maybe Rossini didn't actually want his tenors to sound like "real men".


Quite right. Rossini would not have known the tenor our friend is touting so highly. It is a comparatively modern invention. The option of large beefy voices for Rossini is a matter of preference. As is the matter of matronly singers for Handel which would sound nothing like the voices Handel wrote for. I prefer the modern approach.


----------



## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Parley said:


> . I prefer the modern approach.


I've just read this site following a deliberate month off that I took due to my frustration with some of the attitudes on here. I'd hoped to see at least some change in that month, but it's actually worse now than it was before.

Like you, I find a lot of positives in the modern approach. Unfortunately, most of the TC Opera forum is simply an echo chamber of voices shouting "modern = bad, old = good". Anyone who disagrees will get routinely flamed by several of the regulars in here (they know who they are). I actually like singing from many eras covering over a century, and have no patience with what I see on here all the time.

I might come back in a year or two, but I've moved to other places that are more open to music from all eras, and that don't take the view that a singer can't possibly have any merit unless they've been dead for at least 70 years.


----------



## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Maybe a little history would be of use here. The forerunner of the modern tenor is thought to be Domenico Donzelli (1790 - 1873), who apparently lacked the felxibility of most tenors of the time and developed a top C in what became known as falsetone, a sort of head voice which was more powerful than the falsetto most tenors used at that time for the topmost notes. Of course we can't know what he actually sounded like, but his singing style changed over the course of his career.
> 
> He was followed by Gilbert Duprez (1806 - 1896), who was the first tenor to sing top C in chest. Rossini didn't like him at all and famously said that he sounded like the squawk of a capon with its throat cut. Maybe Rossini didn't actually want his tenors to sound like "real men".


This is all very true, and I think it at least discounts the "every tenor who doesn't sing top notes like Lauri-Volpi is wrong" sort of claim. _But_, it also emphatically does _not_ prove that the way that modern tenors sound, because it is lighter, is the way (or even closer to the way) that tenors sounded in Rossini's own time. If you listen to head voice in the upper part of the range from old recordings it sounds nothing like the sound that Florez et al make in any part of their range:















Furthermore, the chest register of these singers is totally different from modern singers. Does anybody deny that signers in Rossini's time used chest voice below the three or four top notes and that singers going back to the beginning of opera were said to have very powerful voices that sounded like trumpets or other very loud things?

Modern technique is an even more modern invention that singing the top C in chest voice, and my main problem is not with people who like it, but with people who tell me that it is necessarily "more authentic" because it is lighter. If there were singers out there who sounded like the guys I posted, I'd praise them the same as any old singer.



Aerobat said:


> Unfortunately, most of the TC Opera forum is simply an echo chamber of voices shouting "modern = bad, old = good".


Then why are most of the posts here and in the "Are they actually a mezzo" thread critical (or at least skeptical) of the OP?

Here are modern things that are good:










The difference in quality the second clip between Muehle (who sounds old school) and the Liu (who sounds very modern) is pretty clear.






It's about the old school sound, not things being old. The old school sound is not good because it is old, it is good because it is powerful as a mode of expression and just a lot more fun to listen to.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> Quite right. Rossini would not have known the tenor our friend is touting so highly. It is a comparatively modern invention. The option of large beefy voices for Rossini is a matter of preference. As is the matter of matronly singers for Handel which would sound nothing like the voices Handel wrote for. I prefer the modern approach.


you're welcome to like whatever you like. you're even free to argue about what you like, but what I take more issue with is when you pop in and challenge with a bunch of questions like you want to debate, only to completely ignore the person's answers after they've provided several examples, counter arguments and a break down. it comes off more like passive-aggressive soliciting than a desire to have an intellectually honest conversation. a counter example is provided below.



Tsaraslondon said:


> Maybe a little history would be of use here. The forerunner of the modern tenor is thought to be Domenico Donzelli (1790 - 1873), who apparently lacked the felxibility of most tenors of the time and developed a top C in what became known as _falsetone_, a sort of head voice which was more powerful than the _falsetto_ most tenors used at that time for the topmost notes. Of course we can't know what he actually sounded like, but his singing style changed over the course of his career.
> 
> He was followed by Gilbert Duprez (1806 - 1896), who was the first tenor to sing top C in chest. Rossini didn't like him at all and famously said that he sounded like _the squawk of a capon with its throat cut_. Maybe Rossini didn't actually want his tenors to sound like "real men".


thank you. _this_ is what I'm looking for. an actual counter argument and explanation that can be debated/examined.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> you're welcome to like whatever you like. you're even free to argue about what you like, but what I take more issue with is when you pop in and challenge with a bunch of questions like you want to debate, only to completely ignore the person's answers after they've provided several examples, counter arguments and a break down. it comes off more like passive-aggressive soliciting than a desire to have an intellectually honest conversation. a counter example is provided below.
> 
> thank you. _this_ is what I'm looking for. an actual counter argument and explanation that can be debated/examined.


I don't ignore any answers when they are relevant. Sorry you feel that way


----------



## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Richard Conrad's highly elaborate version recorded in the 1960s might be worth a listen: 





Conrad said about himself:


> I started off as a baritone, which is what my voice always was, naturally. But my voice was so *light* in those days, I could sing easily up in the tenor range if I used the kind of technique *countertenors* use. This meant there was *no ring* in my voice


Source:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/11/arts/music/richard-conrad-dead.html

It is arguably the very opposite of "core, squillo and power" described by the original poster. Do people here enjoy Conrad's singing? Is this better/same/worse than what we hear today?

I'm not personally convinced that Conrad's approach is necessarily historically accurate. The flexibility is admirable but some of the earliest tenors on record were born before Rossini died - their teachers must have been around when Rossini's works were premiered - and they sing with both flexibility and squillo even on the old records.

Fernando De Lucia was born 1860 before Rossini died 





but also Umberto Pini-Corsi (born 1860)





Leon David (born 1867)





Edmond Clement (born 1867) offers a very elegant and gentle version





I find the style of these singers frequently very beautiful and their voices carry even with the limitations of the _very_ old recordings.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I read an interesting statement today. The Rosa Ponselle Foundation stopped having contests as they couldn't find contestants who sang in a correct manner... or something to that effect.


----------



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Aerobat said:


> I've just read this site following a deliberate month off that I took due to my frustration with some of the attitudes on here. I'd hoped to see at least some change in that month, but it's actually worse now than it was before.
> 
> Like you, I find a lot of positives in the modern approach. Unfortunately, most of the TC Opera forum is simply an echo chamber of voices shouting "modern = bad, old = good". Anyone who disagrees will get routinely flamed by several of the regulars in here (they know who they are). I actually like singing from many eras covering over a century, and have no patience with what I see on here all the time.
> 
> I might come back in a year or two, but I've moved to other places that are more open to music from all eras, and that don't take the view that a singer can't possibly have any merit unless they've been dead for at least 70 years.


I have a hard time understanding your perspective. The attitudes here won't change until the singing does. The modern approach is lesser than and the posters that you accuse of flaming have explained why in detailed fashion many times. The tournaments have shown this to be the case as well. If you think our perspective is as simple as modern=bad old=good you haven't been paying attention. You have no patience with us, we have no patience with modern singing techniques. No one should have to apologize for holding singers to the highest standard, and I say all of this as a currently active singer.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I have a hard time understanding your perspective. The attitudes here won't change until the singing does. The modern approach is lesser than and the posters that you accuse of flaming have explained why in detailed fashion many times. The tournaments have shown this to be the case as well. If you think our perspective is as simple as modern=bad old=good you haven't been paying attention. You have no patience with us, we have no patience with modern singing techniques. No one should have to apologize for holding singers to the highest standard, *and I say all of this as a currently active singer.*


I really want to get back into vocal shape because I haven't performed in almost a decade and I'm sitting here thinking "jfc, you're all doing it wrong!", but my voice is nothing to write home about in its current condition, so I'm left having to limit how critical I can be haha


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Aerobat said:


> I've just read this site following a deliberate month off that I took due to my frustration with some of the attitudes on here. I'd hoped to see at least some change in that month, but it's actually worse now than it was before.
> 
> Like you, I find a lot of positives in the modern approach. Unfortunately, most of the TC Opera forum is simply an echo chamber of voices shouting "modern = bad, old = good". Anyone who disagrees will get routinely flamed by several of the regulars in here (they know who they are). I actually like singing from many eras covering over a century, and have no patience with what I see on here all the time.
> 
> I might come back in a year or two, but I've moved to other places that are more open to music from all eras, and that don't take the view that a singer can't possibly have any merit unless they've been dead for at least 70 years.


there are a handful of modern singers I appreciate. here's a good example of a recent one who sings with reasonably good technique. thoroughly enjoyed this clip. (we must be pushing about 30 examples of Rossini singers who don't sound like teenagers/canaries at this point)


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I think there is a tendency to associate "old school singing" with being stuffy, pretentious, hard to connect with, but let's look at things from a different angle. obviously, there will always be differences between popular and classical technique, but if anything, I think better development of the chest voice and full throated singing would bring MORE accessibility to opera, not less. too many modern baroque and Rossini singers sound less like a natural singing voice and more like a gay theatre kid botching an impression of a BBC special (speaking as a gay male with performance experience and an appreciation of British cinema, this is a stereotype well worth avoiding :lol: ). many popular contemporary singers also employ strong chest voice to achieve that same visceral, exciting effect. let's look at a few examples

Cher





Anastacia 





Mariah Carey


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Maybe a little history would be of use here. The forerunner of the modern tenor is thought to be Domenico Donzelli (1790 - 1873), who apparently lacked the felxibility of most tenors of the time and developed a top C in what became known as _falsetone_, a sort of head voice which was more powerful than the _falsetto_ most tenors used at that time for the topmost notes. Of course we can't know what he actually sounded like, but his singing style changed over the course of his career.
> 
> He was followed by Gilbert Duprez (1806 - 1896), who was the first tenor to sing top C in chest. Rossini didn't like him at all and famously said that he sounded like _the squawk of a capon with its throat cut_. Maybe Rossini didn't actually want his tenors to sound like "real men".


you bring up a fair point, but it's also important to remember the limitations of amplification until the 20th century. even outside of Rossini and conventionally "light" rep, modern tenors often get away with not projecting their lower and middle range to the point where a live audience can hear them without the assistance of stage mics or recording equipment (in the case of the latter, it's often _encouraged_, as lighter singing is easier to record). regardless of how they approached their top notes, all of the voice would least require a big enough sound to carry throughout the theatre (and in the case of Covent Garden or La Scala, we aren't exactly talking modest mountain cabins)


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

we need more basses!

Evgeny Nesterenko


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> you bring up a fair point, but it's also important to remember the limitations of amplification until the 20th century. even outside of Rossini and conventionally "light" rep, modern tenors often get away with not projecting their lower and middle range to the point where a live audience can hear them *without the assistance of stage mics or recording equipment* (in the case of the latter, it's often _encouraged_, as lighter singing is easier to record). regardless of how they approached their top notes, all of the voice would least require a big enough sound to carry throughout the theatre (and in the case of Covent Garden or La Scala, we aren't exactly talking modest mountain cabins)


Where does this reasoning come from? As far as I know Covent Garden or the Met (to give two examples) don't use microphones to project to the audience in the theatre itself.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> Where does this reasoning come from? As far as I know Covent Garden or the Met (to give two examples) don't use microphones to project to the audience in the theatre itself.


https://slippedisc.com/2015/09/voice-alert-covent-garden-instals-discreet-amplification/


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> https://slippedisc.com/2015/09/voice-alert-covent-garden-instals-discreet-amplification/


ie not for the general run of opera


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> https://slippedisc.com/2015/09/voice-alert-covent-garden-instals-discreet-amplification/


As Parley has posted below, these would not be used for opera in general.

Incidentally, I think we should also remember that back in Rossini's day, theatres were generally much smaller , particularly in Italy, and also in the majority of Europe. One of my first ever professional jobs was as a dancer with a touring Italian operetta company. We toured throughout Italy, Sardinia and Sicily, sometimes performing in specially erected outdoor theatres, sometimes in ancient amphitheatres, but more often than not in beautiful old opera houses, many of which were really tiny, probably seating no more than 300-400 people.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> As Parley has posted below, these would not be used for opera in general.
> 
> Incidentally, I think we should also remember that back in Rossini's day, theatres were generally much smaller , particularly in Italy, and also in the majority of Europe. One of my first ever professional jobs was as a dancer with a touring Italian operetta company. We toured throughout Italy, Sardinia and Sicily, sometimes performing in specially erected outdoor theatres, sometimes in ancient amphitheatres, but more often than not in beautiful old opera houses, many of which were really tiny, probably seating no more than 300-400 people.


We should also remember that orchestras were smaller and instruments generally did not make as much sound. Hence there was not the need for huge voices to rise above the orchestra. They came later.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> As Parley has posted below, these would not be used for opera in general.
> 
> Incidentally, I think we should also remember that back in Rossini's day, theatres were generally much smaller , particularly in Italy, and also in the majority of Europe. One of my first ever professional jobs was as a dancer with a touring Italian operetta company. We toured throughout Italy, Sardinia and Sicily, sometimes performing in specially erected outdoor theatres, sometimes in ancient amphitheatres, but more often than not in beautiful old opera houses, many of which were really tiny, probably seating no more than 300-400 people.


even in smaller houses, it's not so much an issue of producing massive volume as much as the right kinds of overtones which penetrate the entire space. even outside of singing, good public speaking requires using the voice correctly to achieve this affect if one is to do so unamplified. if fact, I would argue that it's not just opera, but _most of Western society_ that could stand a reintroduction to proper chest voice. naturally, this doesn't have to be operatic training. that would be an unrealistic and somewhat extreme proposal (most people would feel the same way I would feel if schools suddenly made ballet a requirement lol), but I think middle school, high school and university should all require ample training in public speaking, with more emphasis on how to use the voice powerfully enough to be heard and release tension in the throat which, from what I've observed, is the norm among millennials and zoomers.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

as an interesting counter-example, there is a lot of _spoken_ squillo in this scene.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> even in smaller houses, it's not so much an issue of producing massive volume as much as the right kinds of overtones which penetrate the entire space. even outside of singing, good public speaking requires using the voice correctly to achieve this affect if one is to do so unamplified. if fact, I would argue that it's not just opera, but _most of Western society_ that could stand a reintroduction to proper chest voice. naturally, this doesn't have to be operatic training. that would be an unrealistic and somewhat extreme proposal (most people would feel the same way I would feel if schools suddenly made ballet a requirement lol), but I think middle school, high school and university should all require ample training in public speaking, with more emphasis on how to use the voice powerfully enough to be heard and release tension in the throat which, from what I've observed, is the norm among millennials and zoomers.


One thing of course that schools don't do today at least in this country is the old debating society. We learned to speak in public through the debating society and learned throw our voice out through that. There were no microphones in those days. Even when we did a public reading in the school assembly (and I'm going back a few years here) there was a need to project your voice. Of course now with amplification a different style of public speaking is needed. There is no good yelling into a microphone because the microphone does your work for you.You can see old footage of Lloyd George speaking into a camera as if he is addressing a public rally! I think we have to learn that times change whether we like it or not.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> One thing of course that schools don't do today at least in this country is the old debating society. We learned to speak in public through the debating society and learned throw our voice out through that. There were no microphones in those days. Even when we did a public reading in the school assembly (and I'm going back a few years here) there was a need to project your voice. Of course now with amplification a different style of public speaking is needed. There is no good yelling into a microphone because the microphone does your work for you.You can see old footage of Lloyd George speaking into a camera as if he is addressing a public rally! I think we have to learn that times change whether we like it or not.


okay, then people should adjust their speaking style during the minority of the time they're using a microphone, rather than continuously talking as if they're speaking into one. even if one is in the small percentage of people who use a microphone for most of their work-related communication, do they use a microphone in their own home? when going out for drinks with friends?

a strong, natural speaking voice is human biology. the same apparatus has gone relatively unchanged for at least 300,000 years. it's not a matter of cultural preference or style of the times.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> okay, then people should adjust their speaking style during the minority of the time they're using a microphone, rather than continuously talking as if they're speaking into one. even if one is in the small percentage of people who use a microphone for most of their work-related communication, do they use a microphone in their own home? when going out for drinks with friends?
> 
> a strong, natural speaking voice is human biology. the same apparatus has gone relatively unchanged for at least 300,000 years. it's not a matter of cultural preference or style of the times.


When one is out with one's friends, one does not usually address them as if one is speaking to a lecture hall. Else one's friends tend to diminish in numbers!

The other mistake you can make is to mumble into a microphone. It is an art all of its own. You need to speak up and speak clearly.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> When one is out with one's friends, one does not usually address them as if one is speaking to a lecture hall. Else one's friends tend to diminish in numbers!


but one does need to make sure one is audible in crowded areas. I'm sure that's a little less relevant during covid, but for most of history, spending time with friends has involved a lot of large social gatherings where one needed to make oneself heard clearly. if you look around you, some of the people with the most developed chest voice...are blue collar workers who have to call out to fellow workers over loud equipment, often several stories up or down.



> The other mistake you can make is to mumble into a microphone. It is an art all of its own. You need to speak up and speak clearly.


hard agree (it has now become fashionable to do so in some circles, which fills me with revulsion)


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

good singing advice! I love this guy's channel. we would have more real spinto tenors around today if they were trained by this gentleman


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Bobby Breen is 12 here. A 12 year old boy has a stronger chest voice than most of today's mezzos and baritones. *let...that...sink...in*

bonus points for that _portamento_


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> but one does need to make sure one is audible in crowded areas. I'm sure that's a little less relevant during covid, but for most of history, spending time with friends has involved a lot of large social gatherings where one needed to make oneself heard clearly. if you look around you, some of the people with the most developed chest voice...are blue collar workers who have to call out to fellow workers over loud equipment, often several stories up or down.
> 
> hard agree (it has now become fashionable to do so in some circles, which fills me with revulsion)


I always give young people instruction of how to speak into a microphone. There is an art to it like everything else. You also have to make allowances for the hall acoustics you are speaking in.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Bobby Breen is 12 here. A 12 year old boy has a stronger chest voice than most of today's mezzos and baritones. *let...that...sink...in*
> 
> bonus points for that _portamento_


Two problems:

1. The video is not available
2. The people who you want it to 'sink in to' are probably not listening! :lol:


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> I always give young people instruction of how to speak into a microphone. There is an art to it like everything else. You also have to make allowances for the hall acoustics you are speaking in.


I'm glad to hear that



Parley said:


> Two problems:
> 1. The video is not available









> 2. The people who you want it to 'sink in to' are probably not listening! :lol:


oh I've done quite a lot of listening. if anything, my bias is one of constantly looking for modern singers capable of the requisite skills.

ex: Renee Fleming is a modern singer with reasonable use of chest voice. some of her style isn't to my liking, but at the very least, it's pleasant, possesses some degree of power and doesn't sound fake like many modern singers. (yes, I'm looking at you Netrebko, the bloody leggiero thinking she can sing dramatic soprano -_- )
edit: oh look! I just realized....another strong voice singing Rossini


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

perhaps it would be useful to give more evidence of how this applies outside of opera. virtually all traditional forms of music involved some use of the chest voice. let's look at some examples from a range of different music traditions

spirituals (Mahalia Jackson)





Eastern European folk music (Lyudmila Zykina)





Western Christmas music (Bing Crosby)





African Tribal Music





Huapango (Chingon)





East Orthodox Chant





traditional Greek music 





country/western (Lynn Anderson)





exotica (Yma Sumac)





musical theatre (Nelson Eddy. notice this sounds....almost exactly like opera. back then, there was little difference between to two in terms of technique. yes, there were style differences, but more importantly, there was just....good singing. good, natural singing that transcends time and musical style)





I could go on. until the 70s, virtually every music style employed strong use of the _whole_ voice. compared to this, modern pop singers all sound like bratty teenage girls, and unfortunately, opera is slowly following suit.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I'm glad to hear that
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was talking about whether anyone is listening to you!


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> I was talking about whether anyone is listening to you!


aaand you basically just admitted that you are trying to debate me in spite of not actually listening to what I'm saying. that's kind of a big deal if you want to articulate anything past personal like/dislike of a person/opinion.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> aaand you basically just admitted that you are trying to debate me in spite of not actually listening to what I'm saying. that's kind of a big deal if you want to articulate anything past personal like/dislike of a person/opinion.


It's not people like me you need to get to listen. It's the operatic world you need to change.


----------



## classicalfan (Jun 8, 2021)

Hi, I agree with what you said about the voice being strong. What would you consider being a weak voice? I'm personally drawn to a weaker voice versus a strong voice, but I appreciate both.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

classicalfan said:


> Hi, I agree with what you said about the voice being strong. What would you consider being a weak voice? I'm personally drawn to a weaker voice versus a strong voice, but I appreciate both.


weak voice: 
- unsupported
- sounds like crying/whining rather than singing 
- fake "sensitivity" and "musicianship" to impart cheap emotional intensity 
- generally lacks a chest voice completely 
- often nasal or shrill 
- doesn't carry in a theater without amplification
- makes you think "teenager" rather than "man/woman" (unless they're a countertenor. most of them sound like pedophiles)

strong voice
- even from top to bottom
- lots of squillo/"ping!" regardless of voice type 
- easily heard in most music halls 
- some level of chest voice present throughout the range
- makes you think "man/woman" rather than "teenager"

for examples, we'll stick to tenors

weak voice





a little better





now we're getting somewhere 





strong voice





VERY strong voice!


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> It's not people like me you need to get to listen. It's the operatic world you need to change.


at this point, you're just being annoying. it's impolite to enter a conversation and poke around at length when you have no desire of making a point past "I don't like your position".


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> weak voice:
> - unsupported
> - sounds like crying/whining rather than singing
> - fake "sensitivity" and "musicianship" to impart cheap emotional intensity
> ...


You are a bit monolithic in your tastes, aren't you? I'm glad my palette can appreciate different styles of singing. I actually enjoy all these tenors. You see variety is the spice of life and con belto isn't the only way!


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> at this point, you're just being annoying. it's impolite to enter a conversation and poke around at length when you have no desire of making a point past "I don't like your position".


The point I'm making is that you appear to be on a crusade - but who is listening to you who really matters? Sorry if it annoys you but I'm just asking the obvious question.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> The point I'm making is that you appear to be on a crusade - but who is listening to you who really matters? Sorry if it annoys you but I'm just asking the obvious question.


your question is irrelevant and you've essentially repeated it ad nauseum. yes, I feel passionately about this topic. no, there aren't millions of people listening to me, but that doesn't bother me.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> your question is irrelevant and you've essentially repeated it ad nauseum. yes, I feel passionately about this topic. no, there aren't millions of people listening to me, but that doesn't bother me.


I can't see why my question is irrelevant if you feel passionately about it


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> for examples, we'll stick to tenors
> 
> weak voice
> 
> ...


ya know, I'm going to do the same for baritones (note: in an attempt to see things from the other side, the "strong" voice is a relatively recent singer and the "weak" voice is as golden age singer.)

weak voice: Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (so...bloody...overrated) 





a little better: Thomas Hampson (not horrible, but not enough chest participation or intensity in the upper 1/3 of the range)





now we're getting somewhere: Dimitri Hvorostovsky (he's also been somewhat ingolata, but I don't think anyone would call him a "weak" voice)





strong voice: Hakan Hagegard (sound is fuller. more fire in the voice than previous examples)





VERY strong voice: Nicolai Herlea (effortless, masculine power without pushing or undo forcefulness.)


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

a stronger mezzo from more recent times (fun fact: she's also in a symphonic metal band. I like some of their work haha)


----------



## classicalfan (Jun 8, 2021)

New to forum, but music is awesome!


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

not opera, but more recent examples.

baritone





spinto tenor (note the developed chest voice on the female singer even though she doesn't sing with operatic technique)





bass


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> not opera, but more recent examples.
> 
> baritone
> 
> ...


Splendid sound? They will be performing Handel's Alcina next week?


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> Splendid sound? They will be performing Handel's Alcina next week?


the lack thereof singing Handel and Rossini is kinda the point (okay, maybe not basso profondo, but baritone? certainly. spinto tenor? there's a few spots for them)


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> the lack thereof singing Handel and Rossini is kinda the point (okay, maybe not basso profondo, but baritone? certainly. spinto tenor? there's a few spots for them)


The point you don't seem to get is that there are horses for courses not one size fits all.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> The point you don't seem to get is that there are horses for courses not one size fits all.


I get your point, it's just wrong, and a complete fabrication of the late 20th century that singers of the last hundreds years (I listed over 20 examples, others listed more) did not fit. we suddenly decided "Rossini tenor" and "coloratura mezzo" were supposed to sing that rep in spite of no historical precedent of the recorded era


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I get your point, it's just wrong, and a complete fabrication of the late 20th century that singers of the last hundreds years (I listed over 20 examples, others listed more) did not fit. we suddenly decided "Rossini tenor" and "coloratura mezzo" were supposed to sing that rep in spite of no historical precedent of the recorded era


You have said I'm wrong but given no reason apart from your own opinion. You are entitled to it but don't go saying others are wrong for not agreeing. You of course know exactly what Handel's singers sounded like? We only have examples from the days of recording and who is to say they would do it in the style the composers wanted? We simply don't know. Any dogmatism is pointless.


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> it's no secret I take issue with the overly head voice dominated style of singing that foregoes full engagement of the cords. a lot of people will say "but she sings like that because she's a lyric voice type", but the technique of good singing is the same regardless of voice type. yes, different voice types excel a bit more at certain things than others, but there is a certain depth and power which is attainable for all voices.
> 
> we'll start things off with a lyric soprano: Mary Costa. do you hear anything croon-y here? does this sound like a voice that can only sing lightly? that lacks squillo or chest voice? no, no and no. her voice is sturdy, strong, developed from top to bottom and possessing both the undertones and the overtones to carry over long distances.


This is US National Anthem and not these FS are singing today some light dressed ladies... Excellent & thanks.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

Dimace said:


> This is US National Anthem and not these FS are singing today some light dressed ladies... Excellent & thanks.


In all fairness, I don't want to appear a snob, but some of us like to go a bit more sophisticated than the Star Spangled Banner!


----------



## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

After listening Renata Tebaldi, live, in an opera (I don´t remember which one), Birgit Nilsson said: She is a perfect example of a voice with SQUILLO.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

Agamenon said:


> After listening Renata Tebaldi, live, in an opera (I don´t remember which one), Birgit Nilsson said: She is a perfect example of a voice with SQUILLO.


In terms of sheer voice, the greatest Italian soprano of the 20th century?


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Giuseppe Scandola (have you ever heard a modern baritone with squillo like that? even one?)


----------

