# What kind of orchestral sound do you prefer on recordings?



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

What kind of orchestral sound do you prefer on recordings?

I will place some basic options that come to mind. Please suggest additional options if something is evidently missing!

Edit: Please post examples of orchestral recordings with a sound that particularly pleases you!


----------



## LKB (Jul 27, 2021)

A for me. I generally prefer the larger, expansive works of Mahler, Bruckner, Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff etc. Big, homogeneous sound with some air around it.


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

LKB said:


> A for me. I generally prefer the larger, expansive works of Mahler, Bruckner, Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff etc. Big, homogeneous sound with some air around it.


There sure is place for that! I cannot imagine Bruckner with other kind of approach. Also, the Pathétique by Tchaikovsky really needs the approach A, otherwise the piece is ruined imo. Many other examples come to mind, too. There is some serious magic happening when the option A is done succesfully.


----------



## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

market research again?....


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> market research again?....


This time I kinda admit it! 😉 It is interesting how people see (hear) these things.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

OT : any sound that appeals to my ears.


----------



## Judas Priest Fan (Apr 27, 2018)

I like it to sound like I´m front row center.


----------



## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

For me it really depends on the piece. For Vaughan William’s Tallis Fantasia I like when it’s a big sound and it all blends together really well and lushy strings are welcome in this piece as well. This is why my favourite recording of this piece is Ormandy, for all the reasons stated above. But for example in Beethoven symphony no. 7 I like it when the sound is clear and you can hear individual lines, that’s why I like Kleiber and Szell’s recording so much


----------



## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

I generally prefer recordings with medium-to-close miking and less reverberation. But most important is that the instrumental balance is good.


----------



## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Waehnen said:


> Please suggest additional options if something is evidently missing!


One option missing is:

pinched 'dead'-center monaural sound with playback reproduced via snap-crackle-pop acetate sources.


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Prodromides said:


> One option missing is:
> 
> pinched 'dead'-center monaural sound with playback reproduced via snap-crackle-pop acetate sources.


So your dream come true would the The Ring tetralogy with this sound? 😂


----------



## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Waehnen said:


> So your dream come true would the The Ring tetralogy with this sound? 😂


Superb find!

Icing on the cake would be such a recording done live, with _pianissimo_ passages punctuated with audience flatulence.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Up close, balanced, clear, vibrant. I like sound so good you could take dictation from it. I hate that middle-of-the-hall sound where orchestral details are lost in the sludge. Even in the big moments things that need to be heard are buried. Sometimes the conductor is to blame, but mostly it's the lousy recording technique. I've been going through that massive Ormandy mono box and have frequently been stunned to find I hear more detail clearly on those 60-70 year old recordings than I do on newer, all-digital recordings from Philly.


----------



## prlj (10 mo ago)

mbhaub said:


> Ormandy mono box and have frequently been stunned to find I hear more detail clearly on those 60-70 year old recordings


I'm glad you said this. When I read the thread title, my immediate reaction was "I want that old warm, slightly dusty tape sound from the 50's and 60's." There's a Chicago/Reiner recording of Scheherazade on RCA's Living Stereo series that captures this sound perfectly. You can hear the whole orchestra in clear detail, yet there's this dusty analog sheen to the whole thing.

And I say all of that as a total digital techno-head who loves modern EDM and synth music...so this isn't some sort of anti-digital tirade. I'm equally enthralled with recordings like BT's "This Binary Universe."


----------



## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Sort of "dry", minimal reverb. Detail gets lost in a wash of reverb.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Prodromides said:


> One option missing is:
> 
> pinched 'dead'-center monaural sound with playback reproduced via snap-crackle-pop acetate sources.


You missed out 'wiry, badly intonated violins that sound like fingernails on a chalkboard and totally inaudible bass*. 

* _or cello if it's a chamber piece. _


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

prlj said:


> "I want that old warm, slightly dusty tape sound from the 50's and 60's." There's a Chicago/Reiner recording of Scheherazade on RCA's Living Stereo series that captures this sound perfectly. You can hear the whole orchestra in clear detail, yet there's this dusty analog sheen to the whole thing.


The "dusty analog sheen" you like has a name, it's called even-order harmonic distortion. It is pleasing because our ears are used to the sound of tube distortion. It's not a sound you get in live performance (unless you're using tube amplifiers) but most of us grew up expecting our stereos to sound this way.

In person, orchestras can be a bit shrieky and shrill, particularly the double reed instruments and strings.

That is the sound I prefer, because I have retained my ears.


----------



## prlj (10 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> In person, orchestras can be a bit shrieky and shrill, particularly the double reed instruments and strings.


I'm typing this as I'm sitting in rehearsal, listening to my orchestra, and feeling fortunate that it's not sounding shrieky and shrill.


----------



## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

The best spots in the orchestra are in front of (conducting) & sitting in the center of the orchestra. I wish I could buy tickets for the center spot. Actually, to the rear and center of the orchestra is a pretty good place, too!

As far as recordings go, my headphones are quite good for piano & strings (sonatas, quartets & chamber orchestra) and my earbuds work well with orchestral music for the most part. What I do want is a proper left to right balance of the positioning of the orchestral players in their proper places. Hall reverberation does not work well for me. I find that some earlier orchestral vinyl recordings to be lacking in full tone color, so I prefer more modern recordings of those works.


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Spot mikes, well mixed, giving the impression of being on the rostrum.

The "blended middle of the hall" sound always seemed like kind of a fiction to me - even in the upper balcony at the CSO I can hear little details and individual instruments. And the percussion to frequently gets lost in such recordings. Give me spot mikes all the way so I can hear everything!


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

prlj said:


> I'm typing this as I'm sitting in rehearsal, listening to my orchestra, and feeling fortunate that it's not sounding shrieky and shrill.


Go sit with the clarinets.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

NoCoPilot said:


> In person, orchestras can be a bit shrieky and shrill, particularly the double reed instruments and strings.


That's a new one. The only "shrieky and shrill" orchestras I've heard are amateur and school groups. Great orchestra have a refined sound with beautiful tone. Hearing Philadelphia, Boston, Cleveland, London Philharmonic, Chicago live is an unforgettable experience. Flawless intonation, blended, beautiful tone...it's not shrieky and shrill.


----------



## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

For me, an audio system is meant to provide an attempt at an accurate window on the original performance. I want to feel that I am transported to the original event, to whatever extent that is possible. I've heard many people say they want it to sound like the musicians are in the room with them. To me, that would not even be desirable, let alone attainable.

With that being said, recordings that are recorded in such a way, where the recording engineer took great efforts to capture the ambiance of the acoustic space, the musician's positions within that space and in relation to each other, and other spatial cues, played back on a system capable of reproducing that, are what I look for. Of course, given that there are no other major compromises with regards to things like: dynamics, frequency response, detail, timbre, attack and decay, etc.

I have many recordings, where, the walls of my listening room, sonically disappear, and many of the instruments extend well beyond the outside edges of my speakers. Violins sound like they coming from well beyond the left wall of my listening room, the basses are coming from beyond the right wall, cellos, woodwinds, brass are spread across the middle, and percussion sounds like it is coming from the back of the orchestra, and well beyond the wall behind my speakers. There is a distinct layering of the soundstage, where the various sections, sound like they are further or closer to the front. And nothing sounds like it is coming from the speakers themselves. It sounds pretty close to being 10-15 rows back from the orchestra, which is where I want to sit (best mix of all the instruments, ability of hearing all the detail of each instrument, great amount of hall ambiance).

Most classical recordings are done primarily using a Decca Tree, with a few more spot mics to record various sections, and outrigger mics to capture the outer edges of the orchestra.










Chamber ensembles usually don't need nearly as many mics.

Sometimes, a Blumlein pair is used for chamber groups, which do a great job at capturing the ambience of the venue, and reproduces a very well defines soundstage, and the musician's place within that soundstage.

I have chamber recordings, where, I get the distinct impression, that I can stand up from my listening chair, and walk "into" the 3D soundstage and stand among the musicians that are in that realistic soundstage.











What I don't like, are recordings where every instrument is given equal weight in the mix, or a soloist will sound larger than life. A classical recording should not be recorded and mixed the same way movie scores are.

Sorry to all those ego driven soloists, but your performance should sound like it is spatially the right size compared to the orchestra. Your violin should not appear to be the size of double bass. Or, it should not sound like you are playing in my lap. I'm looking at you Deutsche Gramophone*!

*Actually, I haven't heard a DGG recording in quite a few years, so they may not still do this.


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Simon Moon said:


> What I don't like, are recordings where every instrument is given equal weight in the mix, or a soloist will sound larger than life. A classical recording should not be recorded and mixed the same way movie scores are.


Or a rock recording. Unfortunately, it's almost universal in orchestral recordings to give a "star soloist" 6dB over anybody else. This _especially_ bugs me when the soloist is a flute or ocarina or harpsichord or something than cannot compete with an orchestral IRL. Trumpets, pianos, violins, yeah that can happen. (Ian Anderson used an electrified flute.)

The rest of your description is perfect, exactly as I would have said if English were my first (or second) language.


----------



## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> That's a new one. The only "shrieky and shrill" orchestras I've heard are amateur and school groups. Great orchestra have a refined sound with beautiful tone. Hearing Philadelphia, Boston, Cleveland, London Philharmonic, Chicago live is an unforgettable experience. Flawless intonation, blended, beautiful tone...it's not shrieky and shrill.


I can attest that the Nashville Symphony does not sound shrieky or shrill in concert, so it's not just the Big Name orchestras.


----------



## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

NoCoPilot said:


> Or a rock recording. Unfortunately, it's almost universal in orchestral recordings to give a "star soloist" 6dB over anybody else. This _especially_ bugs me when the soloist is a flute or ocarina or harpsichord or something than cannot compete with an orchestral IRL. Trumpets, pianos, violins, yeah that can happen. (Ian Anderson used an electrified flute.)
> 
> The rest of your description is perfect, exactly as I would have said if English were my first (or second) language.


yep, that's an annoyance in a recording for me too. It is remarkable though how a solo violin can cut through an orchestra unaided by a dB boost. Speaking of the Ocarina, are you familiar with Bacharach's albums? He uses one on 'Pacific Coast Highway' iirc. In the studio, anything goes balance wise and often does but for concertos in particular, I prefer a more natural balance.
Pretty soon we might be listening to the orchestral classics mixed spatially with DolbyAtmos....virtual 3D Ravel in headphones might be cool fun but will be an even more surreal experience for those of us who like to delve into the traditional dark art of orchestration. I can easily see a market developing for 3d orchestral mixing, one that might even give classical music in general a commercial boost.

On that note, @Waehnen you might want to check this out as a mix option for your project as it strikes me from what you've said in the other thread, that this might be an excellent format to play with and render in. Imagine that distorted piccolo being panned 360 degrees instead of just left and right.

https://dolbyac4.com/uk/news/tidals...pfE-6lmn8fNXAGCXVubuvenK5lajEHfRoC8n4QAvD_BwE

Some mixes may have to come with disorientating pan warnings in the future.


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> On that note, @Waehnen you might want to check this out as a mix option for your project as it strikes me from what you've said in the other thread, that this might be an excellent format to play with and render in. Imagine that distorted piccolo being panned 360 degrees instead of just left and right.
> 
> https://dolbyac4.com/uk/news/tidals...pfE-6lmn8fNXAGCXVubuvenK5lajEHfRoC8n4QAvD_BwE
> 
> Some mixes may have to come with disorientating pan warnings in the future.


Thanks, Mike! I will ask the 2nd mixer / sound engineer for comments on this. One of the points of the radiophonic version is that I want to bring benefits of the modern studio technics to the symphonic experience.

The experience and process of creating the radiophonic version will undoubtedly result in changes to the score (Concert Version) which I then will start marketing to conductors and orchestras.


----------



## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Waehnen said:


> Thanks, Mike! I will ask the 2nd mixer / sound engineer for comments on this. One of the points of the radiophonic version is that I want to bring benefits of the modern studio technics to the symphonic experience.
> 
> The experience and process of creating the radiophonic version will undoubtedly result in changes to the score (Concert Version) which I then will start marketing to conductors and orchestras.


LogicPro has spatial and Dolby Atmos capability. It's becoming the norm as an option for pure music as opposed to just soundtrack work.
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/logicpro/lgcp8e75f0b5/mac


----------



## prlj (10 mo ago)

Simon Moon said:


> Most classical recordings are done primarily using a Decca Tree, with a few more spot mics to record various sections, and outrigger mics to capture the outer edges of the orchestra.


Yup. This is exactly how we record. Things get more complicated when we add the chorus, but still the same principal. 



mikeh375 said:


> Some mixes may have to come with disorientating pan warnings in the future.


Remember that Telarc recording of the 1812 with the warning about the cannons?  



mikeh375 said:


> LogicPro has spatial and Dolby Atmos capability.


I've been experimenting with this in Logic the last few months and it's really fun. Even now, in its infancy, it's pretty compelling when done right. (There are certainly a few bad examples out there, too, at the moment, as some releases were rushed through Atmos.) I can't wait to see how this continues to evolve.


----------



## prlj (10 mo ago)

mikeh375 said:


> I can easily see a market developing for 3d orchestral mixing...


Yes, bring it on!


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Simon Moon said:


> ... Sorry to all those ego driven soloists, but your performance should sound like it is spatially the right size compared to the orchestra. Your violin should not appear to be the size of double bass. Or, it should not sound like you are playing in my lap. *I'm looking at you Deutsche Gramophone*!*
> 
> *Actually, I haven't heard a DGG recording in quite a few years, so they may not still do this.


Lol, I think the penny has dropped with them after years of ruining many recordings with their artificial sound (especially a certain string quartet) and most newer orchestral DG recordings I have tend to be much better recorded. Its taken them a little longer with chamber music but they're finally getting there. Speaking of SQ recordings, strangely I never thought the older Hagen Quartet recordings suffered as much as the Emersons but what sound suits one quartet won't suit another.


----------



## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

prlj said:


> I've been experimenting with this in Logic the last few months and it's really fun. Even now, in its infancy, it's pretty compelling when done right. (There are certainly a few bad examples out there, too, at the moment, as some releases were rushed through Atmos.) I can't wait to see how this continues to evolve.


Cool. That reminds me that I must pluck up the courage to update from High Sierra and get off Logic 10.3. It's so difficult to upgrade (and sometimes foolish), when everything is working fine.


----------



## prlj (10 mo ago)

mikeh375 said:


> Cool. That reminds me that I must pluck up the courage to update from High Sierra and get off Logic 10.3. It's so difficult to upgrade (and sometimes foolish), when everything is working fine.


I'm on Monterey with an M1 MacBook Air and it's been problem-free.  Unless you're running a significantly older Mac, I say go for it!


----------

