# Sergiu Celibidache - madman or genius...?!



## apbsen (Jun 14, 2013)

I am aware of Sergiu Celibidache's theories (for instance regarding tempo)...

but I'm interested in HOW these theories are implemented musically and technically.

What do the musicians actually DO - in a concrete way - to create the "Celibidache sound"?

I'm a non-musician, without any technical knowledge about music, so I'd like to know how Celibidache's music is viewed from a musician's viewpoint.

How do the musicians play when Celibidache is conducting?

And how do they play differently (for instance in the Bruckner symphonies) compared to other conductors?

So it's the tangible musical technique - and not the lofty intellectual theories/analyses - that I'm hoping to know a bit more about!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

What Celibidache did, and few musicians have the knack to such a degree, is an aggregate of a number of complex subtleties involving:

Fundamental tempi, of course

Phrasing / Articulation - which is a myriad of minute things in itself.... dynamic stresses, dynamic contouring (volume variance note to note within a phrase) - a slightly shorter than written length of a note, typically at the end of a phrase, which "finishes" that phrase.

Agogic accents - often mistaken as only a slight dynamic stress of one note, it can also involve a minute lengthening of the duration of one note within a phrase, or a slightly early or late entry (placement), without sounding incorrect nor skewing the overall value of the note durations.

…and other minutia... overall dynamic balance of parts, dynamic balance of the harmonies, etc.

What the effect can achieve - and Celibidache is so recognized for, is _a slower than usual tempo which has a far greater feel and sense of forward momentum_ than many another rendering at slightly or greater speed.

The works, then, feel like they really move forward inexorably; they are finessed as to cohesiveness of the whole, including those large scale structures like the Bruckner symphonies.

Since the listener really hears _everything_, all parts, in balance and in their working relationships with each other, the illusion is of greater activity, i.e. more happening over the course of time, which goes back to that quality of a sense of greater forward momentum. Those slower tempi have nothing in any way to do with a sense of more relaxed... all the micro attention to all those details and the concentration involved create a subtle and suspensful tension (also something an audience picks up on) make for a rather intense experience.)

I believe if such a hue and cry had not been made about the speed / tempo he takes, a majority of listeners might actually think his led performances are faster than those other performances which are actually faster - until they afterwards might check the overall running time 

I've remarked exactly the same effect, all the same attention to the above named technical elements also in play, in that classic / iconic recording of Prokofiev's 3rd piano concerto with Gary Graffman, the Cleveland Orchestra, George Szell conducting.

Of course, some conductors among an already remarkable musically intelligent group are that much more musically intelligent, and have more technique and means to communicate what is needed to the players; Sergiu Celibidache was certainly one of those.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Celibidache´s earlier recorded Bruckner symphonies (issued by DG) are not really slower than average and they can be very immediately contrastful and dynamic (cf. the 4th, for instance), whereas his EMI-series mostly - but not always, like in the case of long parts of the 6th - excels in those well-known, drawn-out _Celi_ tempi.


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## apbsen (Jun 14, 2013)

Thank you so much for your replies, PetrB and joen_cph!

Both replies are extremely informative, especially for a non-musician like me who'd like to know more about the "nitty-gritty" technical aspects of Celibidache's conducting.

I've never seen an in-depth explanation - from a musician's viewpoint - of what it was that Celibidache did "technically speaking", and how the musicians actually played. 

What did the musicians do and how did they play to achieve the desired effect?

The interviews I've seen with musicians who have played under him don't mention this - but it would be extremely interesting to hear about their concrete experiences playing with him.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Bruckner 7, beginning of first movement: He asked the violins to play the tremolo slowly and each player in their own way, instead of all together and as fast as possible.

He was clear about how the strings should bow certain passages, upwards or downwards. He once confused a horn player (I think) by asking him to start on an "up-bow", applying the differences of the bowing techniques to brass instruments.

He made sure that instruments supplying the harmonic backdrop didn't overpower the instruments that carried the actual thematic material. Easier said than done, especially in often extremely dense music like Bruckner.

Generally, he softened the "less important" parts. He once told the timpanist: "You're louder than the all the others, yet you have the least to say." Entries are soft and climaxes controlled, maintaining a high degree of transparency.

He thought analytically. The musical function should be reflected in the sound. I think it was in the Bruckner F minor Mass, there was a passage for the sopranos that consisted of three successive sections. He explained to the singers that if you took the first note of each section, they formed a triad. They should keep this in mind and sing these three notes as parts of a chord and not as individual, non-related notes.

He wanted the players to listen to each other and adjust themselves according to what they hear, instead of simply playing the notes on the sheet.


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## apbsen (Jun 14, 2013)

Great information, Andreas - I (and many others, I'm sure) really appreciate your specific details concerning Celibidache's approach!

Joerg Eggebrecht, who played first Cello at the Munich Philharmonic under Celibidache, said:

"_Some of my colleagues had actually taken up yoga in order to fulfil Celi's breathing technique requirements._ The release of the CDs will show that our brass players play completely different than anything we have previously heard of Bruckner."

!

Source:

http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.98.4.5/mto.98.4.5.james.html


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Leave aside your technical questions,Celibidache along with Stokowski were the only conductors whose concerts actually conjured up magic


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

If you want to get to the essence of Celi then look at these -
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=418448347&pf_rd_i=468294
5 DVDs of him in Rehearsal and concert




















The concerts are magnificent and unusually for Celi, 4 piano concerti with Barenboim as soloist - Brahms 1/2, Schumann and Tchaikovsky. 
The Ravel/Debussy concert in Cologne was magnificent - I was there.
But the revelation for all wishing to find out what he was about is the rehearsal and performance in 1964 of Till Eulenspiegel and again in 1982 with Sheherazade.

I saw all his concerts in london between 1978 - 1982 with the LSO. Every concert was shattering.
When he took over the Munich Philharmonic, it was a very bumpy ride for all for the first couple of years, then they settled down to a great partnership.
His last concerts in the nineties suffered a little as did Klemperer at the end, by slowing down a little, however his now famous
Bruckner 7 with the Berlin Phil in 1992, which was his return to the orchestra for the first time after 40 years in monumental.
There has never been a slower second movement in the history of the work, but he makes one believe in it.
His Deutsch Grammophon CDs are great - any or all of them - better than the later HMVs, although there is not that much in it.
The Stuttgart orchestra plays for him as if they were annointed!
The best way to understand him for a first timer is to see him - Moody and I have done all that and our memories are sharp -
So grab these DVDs while they are so cheap - the picture and sound are all good.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

moody said:


> Leave aside your technical questions,Celibidache along with Stokowski were the only conductors whose concerts actually conjured up magic


Furtwangler?..................


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Itullian said:


> Furtwangler?..................


Yes but not the fairy dust and the extraordinary sound from the orchestra.


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## apbsen (Jun 14, 2013)

Pip - I'll get hold of the DVD that you recommend. I hadn't seen it before.

I've "only" got the DVD's of Celibidache conducting Bruckner symphonies (4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 - with München and Berliner).

And if you feel like recounting some of your experiences watching the concerts with Celibidache - I hope you won't hesitate to write about it here in the forum


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

moody said:


> Leave aside your technical questions,Celibidache along with Stokowski were the only conductors whose concerts actually conjured up magic


Ahhhh, they had THE wand 

But I agree, and would add inexplicable electricity, thinking of and adding Fricsay.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

moody said:


> Leave aside your technical questions,Celibidache along with Stokowski were the only conductors whose concerts actually conjured up magic


exactly! I found the thread!


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Die Welt hat es bis heute noch nicht erfahren:
Die Musik ist nicht nur schön. Das Schöne ist der Köder zur Musik.
Musik ist wahr!

Sergiu Celibidache

yes, Music is truth.
Great words, therefore is in original


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I thought it was a lot simpler: Celibidache adjusted his tempos for the resonance of the room. The more reverberation, the slower it had to be, for clarity. Did I read that in some liner notes of one of his CDs? Also, he was opposed to recording.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Right , it can be put in more simple words: one can hear horizontal lines in all harmony progression, in other words he hears and consequently a listener can hear as well *polyphony* even in all so called *homophony* texture. That's why it's so interesting to listen him conducting works of 18th and 19th century that are composed mostly using homophonic texture, but Celibidache makes it sound as if it was polyphony texture and that's amazing. And of course slow tempos - technically speaking make the process of listening , a process of perception is easier. But well, it's not all about easiness or difficulties of perception and simply playing in a slow motion, if it were about facilitation of listener's attempt to understand a piece, it wouldn't be worth of doing. Behind slow tempos - mostly he is known for it - are perfect and from the other point of view they might not make it easier for a listener to get into a piece, but on the opposite, because for many it's absolutely unacceptable, such tempos, because to tell the truth it takes all listener's concentration to follow the piece and that very fact of such profound focusing produces captivating effect , a piece captivates a listener.

How he understands a structure when he says that in every Finale there is a beginning, so that every final ( of a symphony in this case) should be connected with a beginning ( of a symphony), so that we hear it and so, every great piece is composed like that.

It's not for nothing that he used to speak and teach about music's phenomenology. For him music was not just an art, something that imitates reality, makes a metaphor out of reality, but a reality itself.

There are some videos with him talking about music, rehearsing, but they are mostly in German, therefore I don't post them here


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I recently heard Celi's DG recording of the Bruckner 9th from Stuttgart on youtube , and it was scarcely recognizable ; surprisingly urgent and flowing , but not rushed in any way . And considerably shorter in length !


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

superhorn said:


> I recently heard Celi's DG recording of the Bruckner 9th from Stuttgart on youtube , and it was scarcely recognizable ; surprisingly urgent and flowing , but not rushed in any way . And considerably shorter in length !


on youtube if I remember well, they uploaded one rendition from 1969 and the other is from 1990s. It might be that what you've been listening is the first version with younger Celibidache. His "young" version isn't similar to his "older" one


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

By the way maybe some people find it interesting listening experience of his rehearsal of Bruckner's 9th symphony ( it's on youtube), documentary. Extremely good and with his comments about music in general what he thinks about all that, about interpretations, this symphony in particular , other composers. The only thing is that it's in German with Spanish subs. But still even if one doesn't know these languages, the way he conducts a rehearsal one can still learn a lot -through listening to places that he wants to repeat , to change , etc- at least about such technical things and textures and structure to some extend and expression.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Madman or genius? I don't know, but humble he was not.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

jdec said:


> Madman or genius? I don't know, but humble he was not.


definitely. But who was? many musicians including classical aren't humble at all , even he was a sexist and a dictator.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

jdec said:


> Madman or genius? I don't know, but humble he was not.


I don't speak German, but apparently he thinks he's wine and some other conductor is Coca Cola, and that Coca Cola is more popular, proving how stupid people are.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

yes, yes, exactly he compares wine with coca cola :lol: and he says that Karl Bohm didn't conduct anything in his entire life, in other interview he called him a potato sack, about Karajan similar stuff and of course about the rest of the world of conductors . But one should get it with a pinch of humor, right? 

as for Karajan then it's extremely personal approach , very subjective for sure if one knows about their past in BPO.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

probably both......


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I was reminded of this thread when reading the notes for the new release of Per Nørgård's Symphonies nos.2 & 6:

At that time [1970, after the 2nd symphony had been premiered] the world-famous Romanian conductor Sergiu Celibidache was a frequent visitor to the Danish National Symphony Orchestra in Copenhagen, and he had become very enthusiastic about _Voyage into the Golden Screen_. Nørgård played the radio recording of the new Second Symphony for him, and Celibidache stated that he had never heard such beautiful music in his life. An international success for the symphony, which Nørgård revised for the occasion, was in the offing. But Celibidache's temperament got in the way; first when he demanded a whole 20 hours of orchestral rehearsals for the symphony, and then on a quite different occasion when he walked out on the orchestra in a rage. Celibidache never came to conduct a single Per Nørgård work, but by then the symphony had already been dedicated to him - and it still is.


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

Madman or genius ?. I'm not qualified to say but boy was he a great conductor.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v80458465jCszgTMX

*Le jardin de Celibidache.* documentary about Celi . 2 hrs 30 without subs

very interesting , especially his thoughts about music and rehearsals, for those who wants to get into a world of conducting. It's not just about Celi, but conducting in general seen from very close.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I don't speak German, but apparently he thinks he's wine and some other conductor is Coca Cola, and that Coca Cola is more popular, proving how stupid people are.


Translation from someone else:

Interviewer
Celibidache

_0:00 you rarely say anything nice about your fellow conductors: "Toscanini and Furtwängler hardly knew anything about music, Karl Böhm never conducted a note music" ...

0:12 never in his life, no

0:14 ... "Bernstein fills the hall but that doesn't have anything to do with music". how about Karajan?

0:21 the most tragic case of all. this young person had potential, but he succumbed to his limitless vanity and arrived at a total misunderstanding of music. he became an incredibly non-musical person

0:43 he does not play a single bar right. i saw him conduct the mahler 6 in berlin. what to make of it? he doesn't know a thing about beating. what is an orchestra? not something that can be made to play by a mere gesture. 

1:07 but the audience loves him

1:10 of course! nowadays, when you offer people wine or coca cola, people will choose coca cola. a good conductor is one who sells out the house? good heavens!_


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

"Toscanini and Furtwängler hardly knew anything about music, Karl Böhm never conducted a note music" 

"Bernstein fills the hall but that doesn't have anything to do with music"

Excuse me Mr. Celibidache, but what a joke! lol


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Love it. Viva Celibidache! 

ps, I like Karajan as well


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Crashing bore is more like it.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

this guy spoke what he thought, we can't even blame him for that. We all have an inner child , he had as well and many time this "child" spoke out his mind


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

helenora said:


> this guy spoke what he thought, we can't even blame him for that. We all have an inner child , he had as well and many time this "child" spoke out his mind


Mmmm I'm not sure, I wonder if he really really meant what he said about Furtwangler, Toscanini, Karajan, Bernstein, etc. or if he was just bitter/jealous of their success. Let's not forget he got very very angry and disappointed when the Berliner Philharmonic selected Karajan as Fürtwangler's successor instead of him. He never wanted to conduct the BPO again until Karajan died.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

jdec said:


> Mmmm I'm not sure, I wonder if he really really meant what he said about Furtwangler, Toscanini, Karajan, Bernstein, etc. or if he was just bitter/jealous of their success. Let's not forget he got very very angry and disappointed when the Berliner Philharmonic selected Karajan as Fürtwangler's successor instead of him. He never wanted to conduct the BPO again until Karajan died.


right. Rivals and all the rest and of course all that about "potato sack " about Bohm is just " a little" exaggerated


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I think a lot of Celibidache's catty comments about other great conductor was due to envy of their greater renown and having gotten certain great orchestras HE wanted to lead as chief conductor . 
According to one story, he was invited to conduct the Vienna Philharmonic but at rehearsal he wasted so much time talking to them about Buddhism and its relationship to music and other pseudo profound psychobabble they never invited him back .
Later, he called them a "mediocre orchestra " which played everything "mezzo forte ". Sour grapes .


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

I cann never forgive him for the edited version of the Tchaikovsky 5 he did on LP in the 1950s.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

manyene said:


> I cann never forgive him for the edited version of the Tchaikovsky 5 he did on LP in the 1950s.


just finished listening to this symphony with him , but it wasn´t LP. I´m very curious what he edited


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

In case anybody needs convincing that Celi was a genius:






Nobody else need bother to conduct that again.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> Nobody else need bother to conduct that again.


Now I'm not a fan of Celibidache either but even I wouldn't go so far as to imply that that music has been tainted forever by his conducting.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Couchie said:


> In case anybody needs convincing that Celi was a genius:


I rather would say in case anybody needs convincing that WAGNER was a genius.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

jdec said:


> I rather would say in case anybody needs convincing that WAGNER was a genius.


Does anybody really need convincing of that? Perhaps the deaf.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Couchie said:


> In case anybody needs convincing that Celi was a genius:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I must agree that is really good.

Now I'm listening to Celibidache doing Bruckner 4 and I like this too...






I like Celibidache!


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

tdc said:


> I must agree that is really good.
> 
> Now I'm listening to Celibidache doing Bruckner 4 and I like this too...
> 
> ...


My condolences.


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## sloth (Jul 12, 2013)

Celibidache surely was a visionary, one that - sometimes obtusely - followed his own path to music, no surprise he despised other conductors' points of view. He was a zen devotee but he was an egocentric and that's just one of the many contradictions that characterized the man. nonetheless he was capable of magic


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Another impossibly great reading:






Can't say he never misses though. The way he "milks" the music is wholly unsuited to stuff like the Meistersinger prelude which is painfully slow and boring.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Sergiu Celibidache does the Parsifal Good Friday Music at the speed of molasses and is acclaimed as a genius.
Reginald Goodall does it slightly faster and is lambasted for his leaden tempi.






The moral of the story is critical success comes when you are an egocentric conductor who refuses to make recordings. (Yes, egocentric. Watch the video of his return to the Berlin Philharmonic.)


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Neither, lunatic.


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