# Anton Bruckner



## anon2k2

He sounded so serious. Even when dancing. And who dedicates a symphony to God?

But seriously, some of the most glorious symphonic themes. The first theme in the first movement of the 7th. The great, if overplayed, first movement of the 4th. The total absolute metaphysical "beyondness" of the 8th.

Plus, its just fun to crank the stereo and blast it at deafening levels. Even more fun than doing the same with Ozzy, Metallica, or Judas Priest.


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## david johnson

i like his stuff. why not dedicate a symphony to God, if you've got what it takes?

dj


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## Yagan Kiely

> i like his stuff. why not dedicate a symphony to God, if you've got what it takes?


Agreed. WHynot dedicate a symphony to the teacup on the dark side of the moon?


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## David C Coleman

Yes. Fascinating man and music. One of my favourite composers. But not everybodies of course!! His music can sound rather stodgy and inflexible if you don't "prepare" yourself before listening to one of his symphonies. But yes, glorious stirring music and the best coda writer ever I think..


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## david johnson

Yagan Kiely said:


> Agreed. WHynot dedicate a symphony to the teacup on the dark side of the moon?


probably easier for him to see God.


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## BuddhaBandit

Somehow, this brings to mind a recent thread that ended in a rather vehement argument... but, for now:

Bruckner's one of my favorite Romantic-era composers, purely because his scale is so large and his symphonies, for their length, never bore me. Great themes, horn calls, and finales.


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## Gustav

BuddhaBandit said:


> Somehow, this brings to mind a recent thread that ended in a rather vehement argument... but, for now:


really? What made you think of that? I certainly can't make any connection between this fresh new thread to any old threads!


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## Chi_townPhilly

( :ahem: )... yeah. AND, to help keep things fresh, to try to make sure that "age cannot wither, nor custom stale..." etc. etc.- let me break some new ground and give a shout-out to the *Motets*, works that I favor even more than the _Te Deum_. Bruckner's Motets are among my very favorite religious musical compositions.


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## Gustav

Really, I need to re-listen to the motets then! But, since you brought up Te Deum, I like it very much, not that i am religious or anything, it's just a well-written "tight" choral/orchestral piece. I especially like the what i call the "Siegfried Idyll" motif, which coincidentally also appears in the second movement of the 7th symphony. Of which many people make the assumption that it was a piece paying tribute to Wagner's death.


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## BuddhaBandit

Shout out to the String Quintet, too, which features some fine but albeit smaller-scale orchestration.. One of my favorite quintets, after Schubert's "Trout" and a couple others.


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## Gustav

BuddhaBandit said:


> Shout out to the String Quintet, too, which features some fine but albeit smaller-scale orchestration.. One of my favorite quintets, after Schubert's "Trout" and a couple others.


I don't get Bruckner's chamber works, not that they aren't interesting or anything, i just don't "get" them. To me, the string quartets sounded like late Beethoven, so it was not very special.


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## BuddhaBandit

Very true, especially considering Bruckner in general was very inspired by Beethoven. To me, though, it seems like his chamber works have an expansiveness to them that Beethoven's never had (due, probably, to Beethoven being a Classical/ROmantic transition figure and Bruckner being a full Romantic).


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## Habib

*Cathedrals in sound*

A critic called Bruckner's symphonies as 'Cathedrals in sound.' I think this description is very apt, if you can compare architecture with music. I think Brahms (or one of his adherents) dismissed Bruckner's symphonies as 'gigantic boa constrictors.' Probably a fair enough comment, if you compare them to the more concise statements of Mozart, Brahms or say, Mendelssohn and Schumann. But to be more objective, Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 is a massive work compared to everything written before it, and the same applies to Brahm's own Piano Concertos. So it's unwise to dismiss a piece of music solely due to its length.

I don't know all of the Bruckner symphonies and I wouldn't even care to get to know them all. In a way, if you've heard one, you've heard them all. He always includes a gripping slow movement, which seems to lift you up into the clouds, and an earthy scherzo to get you firmly back onto the ground. Compared to Mahler's cycle, there is much less variety in Bruckner. But all of the symphonies I've heard - even, and perhaps especially, the unfinished ninth - present pretty compelling symphonic arguments. They are tightly structured, despite their length and encompass a wide range of emotions and moods.


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## Sid James

My favourite Bruckner symphony is the *9th*. Although it is an unfinished torso, it aptly sums up all that went before, not only his symphonies, but also his work in other genres. Like the other symphonies, the themes develop organically and are repeated periodically, especially in the hellish first movement. I'm not a big fan of his scherzos, I find them somewhat repetitive and predictable (eg. a main dance theme framed by a trio). But his adagios are sublime, especially in the 9th. It has so many emotions, gravitating from uncertainty of impending death to hope in the afterlife (the wonderful passage for brass is very memorable).

I used to have Haitink's and Walter's recordings. They were excellent, but so is the Mavrinsky I now have, on the obscure Point label, which is a live recording made in Leningrad in 1980.

This is my favourite symphony by him, but I also like No. 0. So, in a way, I like the two bookends...


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## handlebar

I see no problem in a composer dedicating his works to God or anyone he wants. Many forget that religion is still a main part of billions of peoples lives. 

His religious fervor and dedication makes him special in the world of classical music history in my opinion.Granted there are many who composed for the church. But he (and Liszt) seem to be a bit more "pious" than others. Just my thoughts.
I love his symphonies.

Jim


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## Lisztfreak

He wrote sublime adagios. Especially the one in the 7th. And the coda of the 9th's first movement is out-of-this-world. I can see the Big Bang's flash spreading over space and time when listening to this. Or, even more, I can see the Apocalypse. The End of All Things. The spheres of Universe coming crashing down into nothingness, to the sounds of Wagner tubas. Schluß und Kapput.


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## JTech82

I've been listening to Wand's set on RCA and man it's freakin' fantastic! I'm listening Symphony No. 3 right now. This set clears any doubt I had of Gunter Wand. He is, without question, one of the finest Bruckner interpreters of our time.


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## handlebar

JTech82 said:


> I've been listening to Wand's set on RCA and man it's freakin' fantastic! I'm listening Symphony No. 3 right now. This set clears any doubt I had of Gunter Wand. He is, without question, one of the finest Bruckner interpreters of our time.


Agreed!!!! Wand certainly did and excellent job with his set. I consider him one of the all time best in Bruckner. Only Jocum and Barenboim are close.

Jim


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## Mirror Image

handlebar said:


> Agreed!!!! Wand certainly did and excellent job with his set. I consider him one of the all time best in Bruckner. Only Jocum and Barenboim are close.
> 
> Jim


Absolutely, Wand is fantastic. I also have all of the Jochum, Karajan, and Haitink cycles in addition to the Wand. I'm not crazy about Barenboim's recordings, which more or less has to do with the recording quality more than the actual performances themselves.


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## handlebar

Mirror Image said:


> Absolutely, Wand is fantastic. I also have all of the Jochum, Karajan, and Haitink cycles in addition to the Wand. I'm not crazy about Barenboim's recordings, which more or less has to do with the recording quality more than the actual performances themselves.


It all depends of whether the recording is the Haas or Nowak version. I have always preferred Haas as I find the brass changes to be better. But each person has their own preferences. The Haitink cycle is adequate but not too noteworthy in my humble opinion.(Symphony #1 and 3 being the exceptions)They are old recordings that should be done again. I have no doubts that Haitink would do a better job now.

Jim


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## Mirror Image

handlebar said:


> It all depends of whether the recording is the Haas or Nowak version. I have always preferred Haas as I find the brass changes to be better. But each person has their own preferences. The Haitink cycle is adequate but not too noteworthy in my humble opinion.(Symphony #1 and 3 being the exceptions)They are old recordings that should be done again. I have no doubts that Haitink would do a better job now.
> 
> Jim


As I said, nobody in my opinion beats Karajan, Wand, and Jochum.


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## handlebar

The Karajan is a strange kettle of fish. I admire his 4th and the last recording of the 8th on DG. 
But his tempos were always a bit lag for me.

Jim


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## Mirror Image

handlebar said:


> The Karajan is a strange kettle of fish. I admire his 4th and the last recording of the 8th on DG.
> But his tempos were always a bit lag for me.
> 
> Jim


To each their own.



Lisztfreak said:


> He wrote sublime adagios. Especially the one in the 7th. And the coda of the 9th's first movement is out-of-this-world. I can see the Big Bang's flash spreading over space and time when listening to this. Or, even more, I can see the Apocalypse. The End of All Things. The spheres of Universe coming crashing down into nothingness, to the sounds of Wagner tubas. Schluß und Kapput.


I especially like the adagio for "Symphony No. 6 "Philosophic"). It's quite beautiful.



handlebar said:


> The Haitink cycle is adequate but not too noteworthy in my humble opinion.(Symphony #1 and 3 being the exceptions)They are old recordings that should be done again. I have no doubts that Haitink would do a better job now.
> 
> Jim


I think Haitink is given the short end of the stick too often. I personally love his conducting. He really knows how to get the best out of his orchestras. He did an admirable job with Shostakovich with RCO. I've read mixed reviews about his Bruckner, but one thing there seems to be a uniform agreement about. It is well played.

The same has been said about his Mahler. There are many detractors of his conducting just like there are with any conductors. You personally may have not cared much for his conducting of Bruckner, but there are a lot of people who have. There are a lot of people who HATE Leonard Bernstein's Mahler too, but to each their own. I'm not too worried about it. I own some of the best classical music ever recorded in my opinion.


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## Frasier

I agree with "each to his own" in Bruckner. Aside from being a discographical nightmare, Bruckner's music can be approached in different ways so different readings will appeal to different listeners although there are some that consensus suggests are good, no matter what. I'm about to experiment with the Tintner #1 as it's supposed to be a prepared version of the original/Linz. I've heard good reports about this guy and at Naxos prices his readings would seem a bargain. Though I have most of the symphonies read by different conductors, some supplementing at Naxos prices won't hurt, subject to the overall sound/acoustic and reading being ok.

Has anyone else listening experiencing of Tintner? Interesting to hear some views.


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## Mirror Image

Frasier said:


> I agree with "each to his own" in Bruckner. Aside from being a discographical nightmare, Bruckner's music can be approached in different ways so different readings will appeal to different listeners although there are some that consensus suggests are good, no matter what. I'm about to experiment with the Tintner #1 as it's supposed to be a prepared version of the original/Linz. I've heard good reports about this guy and at Naxos prices his readings would seem a bargain. Though I have most of the symphonies read by different conductors, some supplementing at Naxos prices won't hurt, subject to the overall sound/acoustic and reading being ok.
> 
> Has anyone else listening experiencing of Tintner? Interesting to hear some views.


As I have mentioned to several people about Tintner, his conducting is good, but his recordings suffer from mediocre orchestra playing.

Wand, Chailly, Jochum, and Barenboim are it for me. These conductors really got inside of the this music and turned it inside out.


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## David C Coleman

Mirror Image said:


> As I have mentioned to several people about Tintner, his conducting is good, but his recordings suffer from mediocre orchestra playing.
> 
> Wand, Chailly, Jochum, and Barenboim are it for me. These conductors really got inside of the this music and turned it inside out.


My sentiments exactly!!...except for Barenboim maybe..I find him too raucous (orchestral sound I mean)and erratic..

I would include Skrowaczewski here as well. He is and underrated Bruckner conductor in my opinion..probably something to do with the difficulty in pronouncing his name!.....

What to people think about Celibidaches Bruckner??


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## Mirror Image

David C Coleman said:


> My sentiments exactly!!...except for Barenboim maybe..I find him too raucous (orchestral sound I mean)and erratic..
> 
> I would include Skrowaczewski here as well. He is and underrated Bruckner conductor in my opinion..probably something to do with the difficulty in pronouncing his name!.....
> 
> What to people think about Celibidaches Bruckner??


I like Barenboim's Bruckner a lot. I don't find the orchestra's playing erratic at all. Not really sure where you got that from.


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## David C Coleman

MI..I find Barenboim just an OK conductor in most things...nothing spectacular..A bit like Abbado..I much prefer him as a pianist when he was a younger man..


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## handlebar

I have the Barenboim Bruckner set and find the audio very good. The performances are a bit pedestrian but the sonics make up for it. The Jocum set is grand as far as performance but the audio leaves me cold.

Jim


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## Mirror Image

David C Coleman said:


> MI..I find Barenboim just an OK conductor in most things...nothing spectacular..A bit like Abbado..I much prefer him as a pianist when he was a younger man..


I guess you never heard Abbado's Mahler, Beethoven, or Stravinsky then have you? Abbado is good, but only in these composers.


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## handlebar

Abbado's Mahler is wonderful. One of the best to conduct Herr Mahler.

Jim


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## Sid James

Mirror Image said:


> I especially like the adagio for "Symphony No. 6 "Philosophic"). It's quite beautiful...


Bruckner's 6th is the first symphony I heard by him & it's still my favourite. Maybe because it sounds lighter than the others. I always think of the colour gold when listening to the orchestral colours & textures & the graceful melodies Bruckner weaves. I used to have one of the best interpretations, with the Bavarian SO/Sawallisch but have recently acquired the VPO/Stein recording & it's pretty good. Stein gives it a much weightier, sombre & dramatic reading.

I think Bruckner is one of those composers where you grow to love a particular interpretation. I seem to hear the differences in interepretation more in Bruckner than with other composers. Hence the debates about the merits of one over the other above. Perhaps it's his freely flowing, rather organic style that gives conductors more room to manouvre than others like Beethoven or Brahms...

By the way, why is the 6th called 'Philosophic'? Was this name at the behest of a publisher or colleage?


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Bruckner's 6th is the first symphony I heard by him & it's still my favourite. Maybe because it sounds lighter than the others. I always think of the colour gold when listening to the orchestral colours & textures & the graceful melodies Bruckner weaves. I used to have one of the best interpretations, with the Bavarian SO/Sawallisch but have recently acquired the VPO/Stein recording & it's pretty good. Stein gives it a much weightier, sombre & dramatic reading.
> 
> I think Bruckner is one of those composers where you grow to love a particular interpretation. I seem to hear the differences in interepretation more in Bruckner than with other composers. Hence the debates about the merits of one over the other above. Perhaps it's his freely flowing, rather organic style that gives conductores more room to manouvre than others like Beethoven or Brahms...
> 
> By the way, why is the 6th called 'Philosophic'? Was this name at the behest of a publisher or colleage?


Symphony No. 6 is a great piece. One of my favorites by Bruckner, but I'm a sucker for the 8th and 9th as well.

I'm not sure why this particular symphony (Sym. 6th) is nicknamed "Philosophic." I mean I think it's odd for somebody else to give a nickname to a symphony anyway, because it's not composer approved. Much like Mahler's Symphony No. 7 is nicknamed "Song of the Night." Well Mahler didn't approve of this name, so I'm not sure why it continues to be used. Mahler didn't approve of any of the names of his symphonies and please correct me if I'm wrong.

Most excuses about using a symphony nickname is for people to help distinguish the symphonies from each other, as if a number doesn't do that job already? Anyway, I think a nickname, unless composer approved, is useless.

So I just refer to a Mahler symphony as Mahler 7 or Mahler 2, it's just a lot easier and people know what I'm talking about anyway, that is, if you're familiar with his work.


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## kg4fxg

*Symphony No 5*

I have really enjoyed this disc. Besides the symphony he walks you through step by step and it is amazing.


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## Mirror Image

kg4fxg said:


> I have really enjoyed this disc. Besides the symphony he walks you through step by step and it is amazing.


I have not heard that recording, but I'm pretty much done collecting Bruckner.


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## GraemeG

Bruckner 6. Not happy with Jochum's DG recording (BPO, or BavRadioSO?). He yanks the tempi all over the place. When I wrote the programme notes for our orchestra's performance last November, I sat down with Simpson's book, and the score. It was very interesting.* All the unconvincing passages in the finale (as conducted by Jochum) worked so much better when our conductor didn't push the tempo. Simpson has it right in his book. For me, Jochum is the emperor with no clothes in Bruckner - and using Nowak doesn't help the cause either.

*Also very entertaining. Here's me sitting on the bus, with the orchestral score. Everyone around is listening to Ipods or somesuch, and I've got notes on the page. Got a few funny looks, I can tell you!

cheers,
Graeme


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## Mirror Image

GraemeG said:


> Bruckner 6. Not happy with Jochum's DG recording (BPO, or BavRadioSO?). He yanks the tempi all over the place. When I wrote the programme notes for our orchestra's performance last November, I sat down with Simpson's book, and the score. It was very interesting.* All the unconvincing passages in the finale (as conducted by Jochum) worked so much better when our conductor didn't push the tempo. Simpson has it right in his book. For me, Jochum is the emperor with no clothes in Bruckner - and using Nowak doesn't help the cause either.
> 
> *Also very entertaining. Here's me sitting on the bus, with the orchestral score. Everyone around is listening to Ipods or somesuch, and I've got notes on the page. Got a few funny looks, I can tell you!
> 
> cheers,
> Graeme


Well, now having heard Gunter Wand's and Riccardo Chailly's interpretations, I'm not too keen on Jochum either. The only recording I've liked with Jochum has been his reading of Orff's "Carmina Burana."


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## BuddhaBandit

kg4fxg said:


> I have really enjoyed this disc. Besides the symphony he walks you through step by step and it is amazing.


I've got his Mahler 1st recording and it's the same- one disc with the symphony (+ lieder), and one disc with discussions. A very good concept, IMO.


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## Mirror Image

BuddhaBandit said:


> I've got his Mahler 1st recording and it's the same- one disc with the symphony (+ lieder), and one disc with discussions. A very good concept, IMO.


I bought that Zander recording. Haven't heard a note from it yet.


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## handlebar

I finally have picked up the first 2 Masses and am impressed with them both. The Mass #2 is my favourite on the Hyperion CD with Best.

Herr Bruckner was a master with choral works IMHO.

Jim


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## Mirror Image

handlebar said:


> I finally have picked up the first 2 Masses and am impressed with them both. The Mass #2 is my favourite on the Hyperion CD with Best.
> 
> Herr Bruckner was a master with choral works IMHO.
> 
> Jim


I have heard good things about his choral works. There's actually a 3-CD set on Hyperion with Best, but it's very expensive. I can wait.


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## Sid James

Yes, in Bruckner's masses & motets you can really hear how Renaissance composers like Palestrina inspired him. This knowledge, coupled with the fact that Bruckner was probably the greatest organist of his generation (?), really had an impact when he came to writing his symphonies. As I said in the other thread, he also composed some good chamber music, and the quality of the _String Quintet _ (which has a slow movement which is every bit as moving and effective as those found in his symphonies) attests to this...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Yes, in Bruckner's masses & motets you can really hear how Renaissance composers like Palestrina inspired him. This knowledge, coupled with the fact that Bruckner was probably the greatest organist of his generation (?), really had an impact when he came to writing his symphonies. As I said in the other thread, he also composed some good chamber music, and the quality of the _String Quintet _ (which has a slow movement which is every bit as moving and effective as those found in his symphonies) attests to this...


I'm not much a fan of choral works unless they're really well done and there's plenty of interesting things happening musically, but I'll definitely check Bruckner's work in this genre out. Have you heard all of Bruckner's symphonies, Andre?


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## Sid James

I've heard all of Bruckner's symphonies on radio over the years (except No. 00), the ones that stand out & are really memorable are Nos. 4 to 9. I also like No. 0 - especially how the first movement doesn't have a main theme, which is what Bruckner was criticised for by the conductor he showed it to, so that's why he decided to annul it. I also like it's brevity compared to his longer efforts...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I've heard all of Bruckner's symphonies on radio over the years (except No. 00), the ones that stand out & are really memorable are Nos. 4 to 9. I also like No. 0 - especially how the first movement doesn't have a main theme, which is what Bruckner was criticised for by the conductor he showed it to, so that's why he decided to annul it. I also like it's brevity compared to his longer efforts...


Hard to argue with somebody who like #4-9.  Those are standouts to me as well, but it's like you said Bruckner's musical voice was in his work from a very early stage. He just didn't compose music that followed any other composer's methodology or musical language. He completely developed his own language. I especially like how Symphonies No. 5, 7, & 8 develop.


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## Sid James

Yes, there is a remarkable consistency & clarity of style in Bruckner's symphonies, perhaps more than any other composer? He wasn't interested in experimenting as widely with different musical forces as, say, Mahler was, but there is still some variety in Bruckner's cycle as well. The symphonies each have a different feel, from the jollity of the 6th, the grandeur of the 7th & 8th, to the tragedy of the 9th. I also think that his slow movements have a certain (Viennese?) grace & dignity, which are quite moving & memorable in themselves. I like how he was influenced by Palestrina & Wagner, but by no means did he ape them. He just applied the knowledge & insight that these provided to his own way of expressing things...

To listen to Bruckner on CD or radio is one thing, but to see his music done live is another. I'll check out the Sydney Symphony's website of next year's season to see if they'll play any Bruckner. I think going along to a concert of his music being played is something I want to enjoy again...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Yes, there is a remarkable consistency & clarity of style in Bruckner's symphonies, perhaps more than any other composer? He wasn't interested in experimenting as widely with different musical forces as, say, Mahler was, but there is still some variety in Bruckner's cycle as well. The symphonies each have a different feel, from the jollity of the 6th, the grandeur of the 7th & 8th, to the tragedy of the 9th. I also think that his slow movements have a certain (Viennese?) grace & dignity, which are quite moving & memorable in themselves. I like how he was influenced by Palestrina & Wagner, but by no means did he ape them. He just applied the knowledge & insight that these provided to his own way of expressing things...
> 
> To listen to Bruckner on CD or radio is one thing, but to see his music done live is another. I'll check out the Sydney Symphony's website of next year's season to see if they'll play any Bruckner. I think going along to a concert of his music being played is something I want to enjoy again...


I can't think of any other symphonist that sounded like Bruckner, which that in itself, is a major feat for any composer, especially around his time with Brahms having such a strong influence upon the musical establishment.

I would love to see Bruckner live, but the Atlanta Symphony Orch. never plays his music for some reason.


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## Moscow-Mahler

I'm listening now to a recording of the Seveth with Haitink and Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and I'm very impressed by this work. It sometimes drives me to tears, don't know why.

Still don't know a lot of Bruckner, despite of having Solti set (I listen mostly to 2nd and 8th from it) and Giulini's recording of 9th.

I still not into the Third Symphony. I've heard Haitink's old Concertgebouw recording and Tintner's recording. Still, this work leaves me cold and I found it monotonous.


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## hespdelk

Moscow-Mahler said:


> I still not into the Third Symphony. I've heard Haitink's old Concertgebouw recording and Tintner's recording. Still, this work leaves me cold and I found it monotonous.


I did not always love this symphony either - but an old recording with Georg Szell and the Dresden Staatskapelle really changed my mind about it (was released on Sony). It is an energetic and passionate reading - a bit rough because its from a live performance, but I find that adds to the excitement.

Of more recent recordings I have very much enjoyed the one conducted by Jonathan Nott with the Bamberger Symphoniker on the Tudor label (which, incidentally, is a hybrid SACD with great sound if the format interests you). This recording is of the original version by Bruckner, and is a compelling argument for it. The Szell is of one of the revisions (I forget which right now), and there are some subtle changes in this version which I also happen to like.. this is sometimes an issue with Bruckner.. but it makes for more to enjoy in my view. 

I have found that all of Bruckner's symphonies have something special to offer - but they reveal themselves slowly... the first time I heard a Bruckner symphony many years ago I didn't like it at all and thought I would never bother with this composer again! Now he is one of my favourites and has made a significant impact in my life.


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## Moscow-Mahler

Thanks .Maybe I will try this recordings.

Has anyone heard *Skrowacewski* in Bruckner?

He will be performing the Third with die Berliner Philharmoniker this May. I'm not sure, about going, because I've already bought 2 concertos (Kavakos on Lutoslawski,Levine on Mahler and one opera (Elektra), and I will only spend 6 full days in Berlin.


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## TxllxT

Moscow-Mahler said:


> I still not into the Third Symphony. I've heard Haitink's old Concertgebouw recording and Tintner's recording. Still, this work leaves me cold and I found it monotonous.


Try Nikolaus Harnoncourt & Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra in a live 1995 Telarc recording of the 1877 Nowak Edition. Refreshingly different. Or Eugen Jochum & Staatskapelle Dresden 1979 EMI. Jochum & Bruckner are brothers in Catholic faith.


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## elgar's ghost

Moscow-Mahler said:


> Thanks .Maybe I will try this recordings.
> 
> Has anyone heard *Skrowacewski* in Bruckner?
> 
> He will be performing the Third with die Berliner Philharmoniker this May. I'm not sure, about going, because I've already bought 2 concertos (Kavakos on Lutoslawski,Levine on Mahler and one opera (Elektra), and I will only spend 6 full days in Berlin.


I have Skrow's 00, 0, 1, 2 and 6 - his 6th is one of my favourites although the amount of acclaimed 6ths seem pretty rare compared to Bruckner's other late symphonies. The other Skrow recordings I've got are very good but overall I think Tintner's recordings of the early symphonies for Naxos are slightly better (even allowing for which versions of 1 and 2 are used).


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## the_emptier

his 6th is becoming one of my favorites, the first movement motif is so great!! I get it stuck in my head all the time. for being one of my favorite composers I still don't have all of his symphonies yet


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## harmony

Someone (not me) insists that Bruckner's symphonies before #7 are the preparation for it and from #1 to #7 are for Nos. 8 & 9.
When I was teenager, my first encounter with Bruckner was #7. At that time, I did not enjoy his symphony, but now I love his works.


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## haydnfan

The 7th is my favorite. Gorgeous tunes, powerful crescendos and a sense of mystery... it's good stuff.


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## Xaltotun

I've been listening to a lot of Bruckner lately. Let me tell you about one observation that I've made. Metaphors like "architechture", "cathedrals", "faith" and "piety" are used a lot to describe his music, and while they are all correct in a way, there seems to be something more at the core of his music. I hear an enormous conflict there. Enormous pain. There is faith, yes - faith that the pain will one day go away. But the pain seems to be at the source of his music. His symphonies are NOT serene. 

And I can bet that he felt a lot of pain. A weird, ugly geezer, rural man in a sophisticated town, "half simpleton half god", attracted to love and death, Eros and Thanatos - neither of which he could experience in his everyday life. I bet he was alienated like hell. He was certainly not a man of words, perhaps to the point of being autistic (?) - outside of the human social experience. So he expressed his emotions through music. Those long "arches" of his music seem to suggest "waiting" or "potential". Waiting for release, waiting for death - Heaven - or a human potential for greatness. But those archers always seem to rise from the earth, from the mud itself, always retaining their longing and sorrowfulness. In this way we can bridge the seemingly uncrossable bridge between Bruckner the man and Bruckner the composer. In this way of thinking, he becomes one of the most Romantic composers of them all. He was nothing in real life, and longed for something greater, and - most importantly - sensed the conflict, even revelled in it. What's more Romantic than that?

edit. In a nutshell, his symphonies seem to say, to paraphrase Adam Savage: "I reject your reality and substitute my own!", which is a very courageous thing to say!


----------



## 1648

I also sense a sort of barely contained madness beneath the extremes balancing each other in his symphonies, though I don't think his mode of expression was quite as subjective/"Romantic" as you make it sound.

And Bruckner was a lot smarter and well-read than he let on in dealing with his critics.


----------



## Anselm

I love the sound his music makes, but I can't tell you why. I just don't understand it on a musical level. Why does this bit come after that bit? There seems no logic to it. But that's my fault, not Bruckner's - I'll have to spend a lot more time letting it get to me.


----------



## Sid James

I just thought I'd add this here, which I just wrote on "current listening." It would be especially interesting to get a discussion going here regarding influences on Bruckner other than Wagner, an issue which I go into briefly below -

*BRUCKNER* - Symphony # 7 in E major (1881-3) Ed. Haas
Queensland SO / Muhai Tang, cond. (ABC Classics, Australia)
Recorded in Brisbane during Bruckner anniversary year, 1996

Then more serious matters with Bruckner's 7th, my favourite by him apart from his 6th. I love the rich tapestry and detail of this work, as well as it's general optimism (well, that's how I see it compared to his final two syms., anyway). A lot of people speak of Wagner's impact on Bruckner, which was immense (esp. in terms of orchestration), but they forget the equal if not even bigger impact of guys like J.S. Bach, Palestrina, Gabrieli, Schutz. Even with the basic understanding of these guys that I've got, I can't help but hear it all there - esp. in terms of counterpoint, layering of the musical voices/lines, the way he uses the brass, the spirtual aspect, etc. & of course, Bruckner was one of the greatest organists of his time, & he started his musical life as a chorister at Linz. There's so many sides to this man, other than what we know him for, which is kneeling down before Wagner after a performance of _Tannhauser_. There's so much in this symphony alone, from the brassy sound mirroring the jagged Alpine peaks, the "lower" sounds making me think of the valleys, a part at the beginning of the 2nd movt. makes me think of being at a crystal clear blue lake, no one else in sight, just me and nature (& Bruckner too!). After the famous, & controversial cymbal clash at the end of that movt., there is apparently a quote, or fragment, he took out of _Das Reingold _to memorialise Wagner's death. I don't know that work, but I can hear the sadnesss & mourning in there. Then the scherzo, with the "cockadoodle-doo" of the rooster, which woke up the young Bruckner when he was growing up in the country. Then the finale, which speaks to optimism & triumph over grief for me.

A word about the orchestra - the QSO - it has become one of our finest. As for Muhai Tang, he worked with them for a number of years, as well as other orchestras here, & studied & worked under people like Karajan. But Maestro Tang does not take a "heavy Germanic" approach, this live performance radiates postivity for me. This is also a historically significant recording, made in 1996, a century after the composer's death. At budget price, how could I resist getting it, & even at a more expensive price I probably would have gotten it anyway to hear once again how our own musicians tackle this complex music...


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## Ravndal

Oh man, oh man. Can't get enough of his 9th symphony.


----------



## Guest

Ravndal said:


> Oh man, oh man. Can't get enough of his 9th symphony.


With or without the recently reconstructed 4th movement by the Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs team?


----------



## Ravndal

Without. Didn't know a 4th movement has been reconstructed?


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## Guest

Ravndal said:


> Without. Didn't know a 4th movement has been reconstructed?


Yes, several 'reconstructions' have been made over the years. You'll find the basic information on the Internet.
The latest (and it seems last) S/M/P/C team effort was recorded last year with Simon Rattle / Berlin Phil.


----------



## Manxfeeder

TalkingHead said:


> Yes, several 'reconstructions' have been made over the years. You'll find the basic information on the Internet.
> The latest (and it seems last) S/M/P/C team effort was recorded last year with Simon Rattle / Berlin Phil.


Yup. The nice thing about Bruckner is, if you can't get enough, there's always another version or another completion out there.


----------



## Vaneyes

A *Bruckner* journey...

http://operachic.typepad.com/opera_chic/2013/04/linz-in-music-city-of-bruckner.html


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## Guest

Vaneyes said:


> A *Bruckner* journey...


For me, the fact that Bruckner liked his _*Pils*_ beer and food is enough to show me he was a decent human being.
I've said this elsewhere, but I've never yet met a musician worth the name who doesn't like their victuals.


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## ScipioAfricanus

I named my son after Bruckner. I gave him the middle name Anton.


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## Manxfeeder

ScipioAfricanus said:


> I named my son after Bruckner. I gave him the middle name Anton.


Hats off to you! :tiphat:


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## anasazi

I've found that it didn't take an exposure to other composers to love Bruckner's symphonies. In fact, the very first live
concert I attended (I was about 20) featured his Symphony No. 3. 

I've loved his music ever since (nearly 50 years), and that was still the only live performance I have ever heard.

Bruckner just doesn't get performed much, outside of Europe, but I often wish things were different. 

And I can't even explain WHY I love his symphonies so much.


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## Guest

anasazi said:


> I've found that it didn't take an exposure to other composers to love Bruckner's symphonies. In fact, the very first live concert I attended (I was about 20) featured his Symphony No. 3.
> I've loved his music ever since (nearly 50 years), and that was still the only live performance I have ever heard.
> *Bruckner just doesn't get performed much, outside of Europe*, but I often wish things were different.
> And I can't even explain WHY I love his symphonies so much.


In response to the part I have put in bold, I think he gets a fairly decent outing in Japan!


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## anasazi

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't know that. Only know that Bruckner doesn't seem
to be programmed much in the USA (at least with the major-minor orchestras).


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## Marisol

anon2k2 said:


> And who dedicates a symphony to God?


I suppose a person who is deeply religious.

Honestly I don't see a problem with that.


----------



## Bone

anasazi said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I didn't know that. Only know that Bruckner doesn't seem
> to be programmed much in the USA (at least with the major-minor orchestras).


The local symphony here played one a few years ago. I didn't hear it, though, so no idea how it was received.


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## Manxfeeder

Bone said:


> The local symphony here played one a few years ago. I didn't hear it, though, so no idea how it was received.


The Nashville symphony performed the 7th a couple years ago. We have a very good concert hall, and the brass section really showed out.


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## Kleinzeit

From 1987 to about 1999, his death, Georg Tintner, who did a cycle on Naxos, was director of Symphony Nova Scotia. I remember Bruckner as well as Sibelius & Beethoven being performed often in Halifax. 

Though I only knew from Devo back then.


----------



## Guest

Kleinzeit said:


> From 1987 to about 1999, his death, Georg Tintner, who did a cycle on Naxos, was director of Symphony Nova Scotia. I remember Bruckner as well as Sibelius & Beethoven being performed often in Halifax.
> Though I only knew from Devo back then.


Did you know that he was also a chicken farmer? Tintner, I mean. _And_ was a boy chorister in Vienna under one of the Schalk brothers (former disciples of Bruckner)? Anyway, he did great work playing Bruckner's symphonic oeuvre with orchestras such as the National Symphony Orchestra of Ireland, the Royal Scottish National Orchestra and the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra. As I said to Neo in another post somewhere on this forum, they are not in your Premier League, but do you really need to drink Grand Cru Classé wine everyday?


----------



## Guest

In two weeks I'm off to Heidelberg for Bruckner's 3rd Symphony, that infamous so-called 'Wagner' symphony. I'll report back after a few _*Pils*_ beers.


----------



## Mahlerian

TalkingHead said:


> In two weeks I'm off to Heidelberg for Bruckner's 3rd Symphony, that infamous so-called 'Wagner' symphony. I'll report back after a few _*Pils*_ beers.


Which version is to be played?


----------



## Vaneyes

First, 1873.

http://www.bachtrack.com/find-a-concert/where/city=656-heidelberg


----------



## Guest

Mahlerian said:


> Which version is to be played?


The 1873. I'll send you a review!


----------



## jeanmarc

I'm jealous. I've never heard the 3rd in concert, I'v got a dozen recordings though!


----------



## Mahlerian

TalkingHead said:


> The 1873. I'll send you a review!


The real one! I'm jealous indeed. I hope it's a great concert!


----------



## Guest

Vaneyes said:


> First, 1873.
> http://www.bachtrack.com/find-a-concert/where/city=656-heidelberg


See you there, Vaneyes? The *pils* is on me!


----------



## Guest

Mahlerian said:


> The real one! I'm jealous indeed. I hope it's a great concert!


I was there last year (same orchestra, different conductor) for Bruckner's 8th. Good orchestra, beautiful town (about a 2-hour drive from my place), super food and beer. Bruckner liked his _*pils*_. I am his disciple and will heed him.


----------



## EllenBurgess

no confusion is arriving in this thing as it is comforting and easy to handle up


----------



## DrKilroy

Question for advanced Brucknerians - my dad wants to buy a complete Bruckner cycle and he told me to choose between versions by Chailly, Solti and Barenboim. I am not at all familiar with Bruckner (though I like him), but I have no desire in making myself acquainted with all the complexities of the Bruckner Problem and all editions ever published. Could you simply which one would the preferable (for beginners)? Thanks. 

Best regards, Dr


----------



## Cheyenne

From what I've heard myself (being far from advanced): Barenboim. I don't think any of them are among the best as cycles, though.


----------



## Guest

DrKilroy said:


> Question for advanced Brucknerians - my dad wants to buy a complete Bruckner cycle and he told me to choose between versions by Chailly, Solti and Barenboim. I am not at all familiar with Bruckner (though I like him), but I have no desire in making myself acquainted with all the complexities of the Bruckner Problem and all editions ever published. Could you simply which one would the preferable (for beginners)? Thanks.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Dear Doc,
Hope this helps:
http://www.abruckner.com/thebrucknersociety/brucknersocietynew/recordingsofyear/


----------



## emiellucifuge

TalkingHead said:


> . Good orchestra, beautiful town (about a 2-hour drive from my place), super food and beer. Bruckner liked his _*pils*_. I am his disciple and will heed him.


A fun anecdote from Wiki:

According to an anecdote, Bruckner and Wagner drank so much beer together that upon arriving home Bruckner realized that he had forgotten which symphony Wagner had chosen. He wrote a letter back to Wagner saying "Symphony in D minor, where the trumpet begins the theme?". Wagner scribbled back "Yes! Best wishes! Richard Wagner." Ever since then, Wagner referred to Bruckner as "Bruckner the trumpet" and the two became firm friends. In the dedication, Bruckner referred to Wagner as "the unreachable world-famous noble master of poetry and music".


----------



## starthrower

I've been listening to no. 9 on YouTube. Beautiful work! But damn if I can't make up my mind on a recording. The internet gives me option anxiety.

Grace, lyricism, and the right tempos are what I'm looking for. Not too rushed. And the recording quality has to be decent, but not state of the art.

Nobody's mentioned Bernstein, but I quite enjoyed the live DVD up at YouTube.


----------



## Cheyenne

starthrower said:


> Nobody's mentioned Bernstein, but I quite enjoyed the live DVD up at YouTube.


I like that one too. My favorites are the 1944 Furtwängler and famous Guilini one. Furtwängler never recorded the work again after 1944 - apparently he felt he had done everything he could with the piece with that studio recording (it was ostensibly one of his favorite pieces).

I've been listening to Bruckner a lot lately, and I even bought the Celibidache set yesterday.


----------



## anasazi

DrKilroy said:


> Question for advanced Brucknerians - my dad wants to buy a complete Bruckner cycle and he told me to choose between versions by Chailly, Solti and Barenboim. I am not at all familiar with Bruckner (though I like him), but I have no desire in making myself acquainted with all the complexities of the Bruckner Problem and all editions ever published. Could you simply which one would the preferable (for beginners)? Thanks.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Amoung those three, I would choose the Barenboim. Although (as is usual in covering so much material) there is a little bit of unevenness. But when the Berliners and Barenboim are on they are really ON. I like the 7th especially. One thing that I like a lot about Barenboim's Bruckner recordings (at least the new ones) is that he takes the scherzo's at breathtaking speeds (move along folks, nothing to see here).

Since Bruckner's scherzos have never been that attractive to me, I find Barenboim's approach pretty good in that respect.

Needless to say the Berliners play with polish and perfection. They also carry a certain 'heft' in their sound that makes for good Brucker recordings IMO.

And you will find little to complain about with Teldec's superb sound.


----------



## Celloissimo

The 4th is overplayed?! Honestly, everything by Bruckner is _under_played.


----------



## Blake

DrKilroy said:


> Question for advanced Brucknerians - my dad wants to buy a complete Bruckner cycle and he told me to choose between versions by Chailly, Solti and Barenboim. I am not at all familiar with Bruckner (though I like him), but I have no desire in making myself acquainted with all the complexities of the Bruckner Problem and all editions ever published. Could you simply which one would the preferable (for beginners)? Thanks.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Gunter Wand and the Kolner Rundfunk Symphony Orchestra on the RCA label. The whole set is wonderful:

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonies-Nos-1-9/dp/B0042U2HLY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383766355&sr=8-1&keywords=Wand+bruckner


----------



## Blake

I'd also have to mention Jochum's set (DG label; haven't heard EMI yet). There's noticeably more tape hiss in the background... but it's soft and consistent, so it becomes a nostalgic canvas.


----------



## Vaneyes

Yesterday - DG *Jochum

*Today - PentaTone *Janowski *(box to be announced)


----------



## Blake

I'm looking forward to Janowski's cycle. Thanks for the heads-up, V.


----------



## Svelte Silhouette

Vesuvius said:


> I'd also have to mention Jochum's set (DG label; haven't heard EMI yet). There's noticeably more tape hiss in the background... but it's soft and consistent, so it becomes a nostalgic canvas.


Herein lies a key where the performance overshadows any recording deficiency as we ignore such when enraptured as we ignore the odd crackle and pop of a much loved vinyl LP


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## Vaneyes

And if one's simultaneously enjoying a crackling log on the fire, and the making of popcorn, it's no harm no foul.


----------



## Blake

Svelte Silhouette said:


> Herein lies a key where the performance overshadows any recording deficiency as we ignore such when enraptured as we ignore the odd crackle and pop of a much loved vinyl LP


Old albums recorded well have a certain warmth to them that adds to the experience. In Jochum's set (DG), it makes the record more soothing, nostalgic, and mystical. I wouldn't change a thing. That soft sprinkle in the background is like a light rain.

Of course the performance itself is superb.


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## Blake

I'd definitely have to vouch for Chailly's set, as well. I don't know why I originally overlooked it. It's one of the most spacious, articulate, and dynamic sets I've heard yet... and I have about 5 other great cycles in comparison.


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## shangoyal

Listening to his 4th symphony for the fifth or sixth time, and now I somehow understand what the music is all about, I can see through the design for the very first time.


----------



## Centropolis

Although I have only started listening to classical music about 5 months ago, I never really "got" Bruckner's stuff the first few times I heard it.

Until tonight, I cracked open my recently arrived Jochum/EMI box and listened to the first CD. I think something "clicked" tonight. I think I am starting to get it now.


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## Blake

Originally, Bruckner's deluge was inconclusive. But with steadfast sureness I began to grasp his conveyance. Thusly, he is now considered a preeminent symphonist of behemoth vision.


----------



## Vaneyes

Pleased to see a full congregation at The Church of *Bruckner*. :tiphat:


----------



## joen_cph

For those interested in historical recordings, Abendroth´s 8th (1949) has just been introduced on you-t






I´m just getting to know it, but there´s some impressive playing (like in his recordings of the 4th and 9th), and some unusual phrasing (1:03:25, for instance), fine episodes in the strings and lively - if not always perfectly integrated - brass.

There´s also his 7th, which I am looking forward too.


----------



## Nevum

There have been many great composers in history. But most of their amazing compositions are "earthy". Bruckner's music was beyond this world. It was an unlimited spiritual inspiration not contained by space or time limits.


----------



## Vaneyes

Nevum said:


> There have been many great composers in history. But most of their amazing compositions are "earthy". Bruckner's music was beyond this world. It was an unlimited spiritual inspiration not contained by space or time limits.


"There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the Twilight Zone."


----------



## Blake

I shall not concede to this earthly quarantine. I am as open as the sky, and as formless as the wind.


----------



## Nevum

Vaneyes said:


> "There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the Twilight Zone."


I am not sure imagination is the right term. It is simply another reality that only few can conceive.


----------



## Vaneyes

Tom Service examines Bruckner 8. I'm glad a Jochum recording was mentioned, and also that Celi was sitting down for his marathon. 

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to...03/symphony-guide-bruckner-eighth-tom-service


----------



## Cosmos

For me, Bruckner's 9th is one of the more perfect pieces ever written.


----------



## Cheyenne

I really love this silhouette:


----------



## Vaneyes

Cosmos said:


> For me, Bruckner's 9th is one of the more perfect pieces ever written.


Yes, and even though it's "incomplete", I wouldn't/couldn't change a thing about it. The guessed 4th movement that's been done leaves me non-plussed. :tiphat:


----------



## shangoyal

I love this man's music. It's so humble; it's like he is trying to have an honest conversation with God.


----------



## hpowders

shangoyal said:


> I love this man's music. It's so humble; it's like he is trying to have an honest conversation with God.


That's true. He was humble, from what I read and his music reflects that.

Can you see Bruckner and Wagner together in a room? Such polar opposites!


----------



## elgar's ghost

hpowders said:


> Can you see Bruckner and Wagner together in a room? Such polar opposites!


Actually, I can - and I like to think that the conversation would transcend bumpkin v. urbanite and be conducive along the lines of constructive mutual admiration.


----------



## hpowders

I think you are dreaming. Bruckner would be talking and Wagner would be sneaking looks at his watch.


----------



## KenOC

elgars ghost said:


> Actually, I can - and I like to think that the conversation would transcend bumpkin v. urbanite and be conducive along the lines of constructive mutual admiration.


Wagner tried to get Brahms replaced by Brucker as the third "B". (true) Bruckner, of course, was a total Wagner fanboy.

BTW if Wagner owned a watch, it ran quite slow.


----------



## hpowders

Those German watches ran on time.

If Wagner tried to do that, it was more to **** Brahms off than on the merits of Bruckner, who Wagner found a bit dull, I believe.


----------



## KenOC

hpowders said:


> Those German watches ran on time.


Wagner wore a cheap Korean Rolex knockoff that he picked up on vacation in Mexico. Had a picture of Siegfried on the dial with his arms pointing out the time. Cute, but a crapola watch.

It can be seen at the Wagner Museum in Paducah.


----------



## hpowders

KenOC said:


> Wagner wore a cheap Korean Rolex knockoff that he picked up on vacation in Mexico...


Among other things. He would have sold the rights to Gotterdammerung for a 30 day supply of penicillin tablets.


----------



## PetrB

KenOC said:


> Wagner wore a cheap Korean Rolex knockoff that he picked up on vacation in Mexico. Had a picture of Siegfried on the dial with his arms pointing out the time. Cute, but a crapola watch.
> 
> It can be seen at the Wagner Museum in Paducah.


You forgot to mention the Rhine stone accents around the crystal, or that little motivic ornament at the 12 o'clock position, a little misshapen lump of gold -- of course that was fake, too (microplated just once).


----------



## Yardrax

Bruckner and Wagner were in a room together once and you can see a dramatisation of their meeting in this amateur film on Youtube which I came across. A very interesting project, although it tries to rationalise Bruckner's predilection for teenage girls as mistaking all of them for visions of the Virgin Mary, and it wants to paint Haas as an opponent of the Nazi regime.


----------



## Itullian

Maestro Bruckner,
Thank you for all your beautiful, spiritually uplifting symphonies and choral works.
They nourish my soul and spirit.


----------



## hpowders

Bruckner and Wagner were in a room together. After they emerged, Wagner's shoes were shining brighter than ever.


----------



## Itullian

Maestro Bruckner,
Thank you for all your beautiful, spiritually uplifting symphonies and choral works.
They nourish my soul and spirit


----------



## Manxfeeder

Yardrax said:


> Bruckner and Wagner were in a room together once and you can see a dramatisation of their meeting in this amateur film on Youtube which I came across. A very interesting project, although it tries to rationalise Bruckner's predilection for teenage girls as mistaking all of them for visions of the Virgin Mary, and it wants to paint Haas as an opponent of the Nazi regime.


Thanks for the reference.


----------



## shangoyal

hpowders said:


> Bruckner and Wagner were in a room together. After they emerged, Wagner's shoes were shining brighter than ever.


Wagner had the disgusting habit of letting his saliva drip all over his shoes when he talked.


----------



## hpowders

shangoyal said:


> Wagner had the disgusting habit of letting his saliva drip all over his shoes when he talked.


So did Fafner the dragon in Siegfried.


----------



## Vaneyes

Bruckner was insecure and naive toward his composition. 40 years of age for Symphony 1, who wouldn't be a little anxious, and grateful for promise-of-help (that never came) from a famous composer.

The music politics were fierce in that era. Critics had a nasty habit of choosing camps and wrote accordingly. Bruckner was a victim (guilty by Wagner association), and primarily escaped the full brunt of this wrath because of consummate organ playing.


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> Bruckner and Wagner were in a room together. After they emerged, Wagner's shoes were shining brighter than ever.


This was due to the gross quantities of _pils_ they drank (and spilt). Why else did Bruckner (and Wagner) the next day forget which symphony was to bear the dedication? In the fog of a crushing hangover have you never forgotten which is your left foot?


----------



## Guest

Itullian said:


> Maestro Bruckner,
> Thank you for all your beautiful, spiritually uplifting symphonies and choral works.
> *They nourish my soul and spirit*


... after pizza, that is, nah, Itullian?


----------



## hpowders

Who the heck is he talking to????


----------



## hpowders

TalkingHead said:


> This was due to the gross quantities of _pils_ they drank (and spilt). Why else did Bruckner (and Wagner) the next day forget which symphony was to bear the dedication? In the fog of a crushing hangover *have you never forgotten* *which is your left foot?*


Never! My dancing instructor used to say I have two of them!!!


----------



## samurai

hpowders said:


> Never! My dancing instructor used to say I have two of them!!!


So did my Army drill instructors, every single one of them!


----------



## hpowders

samurai said:


> So did my Army drill instructors, every single one of them!


If it's one thing I really can't do, it's dance.


----------



## samurai

With me, I can neither dance nor march properly, to the chagrin of both my wife and the aforementioned drill sergeants.


----------



## hpowders

samurai said:


> With me, I can neither dance nor march properly, to the chagrin of both my wife and the aforementioned drill sergeants.


The only marching I do is to the refrigerator.


----------



## samurai

Yes, "virtual" basic training and war. These kids had just better hope that the draft is never re-introduced in this country! Same goes for all our brave "armchair warriors", although they are probably too old by now to have to worry about that anymore.


----------



## hpowders

Bruckner unfortunately violates my pithiness rule. I'll stick to Haydn.

No need for anyone to get upset. 

I'm speaking for "me", not for "you".

Tolerance is a noble trait.


----------



## Itullian

TalkingHead said:


> ... after pizza, that is, nah, Itullian?


That IS a close one...


----------



## hpowders

Bruckner is boring. No sense of humor. Tedious. Long.


----------



## Itullian

Thank you for the sense of awe and mystery your symphonies provide.
And for their heavenly length and the spiritual journey and positive outlook they provide. :tiphat:


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> Bruckner unfortunately violates my pithiness rule. I'll stick to Haydn.
> No need for anyone to get upset.
> I'm speaking for "me", not for "you".
> Tolerance is a noble trait.


No problem, I'm cool with all that, hip to your groove, peace n' love, pass the joint, put on the Bruckner [oops] ...


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> Bruckner is boring. No sense of humor. Tedious. Long.


Hmm. Give me back that joint !!


----------



## hpowders

Pass the Persichetti.


----------



## Itullian

Gladly..................


----------



## Blake

hpowders said:


> Bruckner is boring. No sense of humor. Tedious. Long.


It would be an unbearably one-sided world if everyone was a pithy comedian. :tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

Duplicate post.


----------



## Blake

You definitely post more than anyone I've seen, but you're a smart guy, so it's entertaining. :tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

Vesuvius said:


> It would be an unbearably one-sided world if everyone was a pithy comedian. :tiphat:


Perhaps....perhaps.... but between Bruckner and me, guess which one is getting more eye time on TC? :tiphat:

I love the way they take those hats off at precisely the same time. That's not easy!


----------



## Blake

:tiphat: <- This little hat-tipper seems pretty popular.


----------



## Vaneyes

A piece on oddball, lecher, beer-guzzler *Bruckner*, from Saint Tom Service. 

http://www.theguardian.com/music/20...onance-anton-bruckner-concertgebouw-orchestra


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## shangoyal

Great composer, pithy or not.


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## Zandonai

As a new member I have to say, I prefer the serious and considered posts to the witty (?) back and forth banter that tends to clutter and devalue some threads.

Bruckner 8th. Around thirty years ago I heard and saw Carlo Giulini conduct this symphony with the Philharmonia (I think) in Salisbury Cathedral. It was utterly, utterly electrifying. As we all know, at the end of any concert piece there's always a clever someone who wants to be first to clap - but on this occasion there was almost a sense of shock in the audience, and a stunned silence. Eventually, after what seemed like an age, Guilini turned to the audience and the clapping started, and it seemed it would never stop. I found myself on the edge of my seat, with tears streaming down my cheeks, and with every nerve in my body jangling.

I've recounted this story to many a music lover but never quite conveyed the extraordinary and affecting nature of the occasion. All my other 'moments' have been in opera. 

J.


----------



## hpowders

Giulini excelled in Bruckner. His recording of the 9th with the Vienna Philharmonic is at the summit.


----------



## Muddy

I read that when Bruckner introduced his 3rd Symphony to the world, he was the proud conductor. And at the end, he turned to face the "audience" and everybody had left. If true, heartbreaking doesn't do it justice. 

I am the proud owner of season tickets to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Sunday series, of 2014-2015. Very excited! Beethoven's 9th and 5th. Mahler's 5th. Bach's Brandenburg Complete! But the last concert is Bruckner's 8th. I hope that, somehow, he knows the esteem that his symphonies now receive, and I know that when the conductor turns to face the audience after that epic, world shattering climax, the standing ovation will last a lifetime! And then, I will drink plentiful pils, to honor a great, great composer.


----------



## Muddy

I have decided tonight. My own opinion, of course. That Bruckner's 8th Symphony is not just a great symphony. I believe that it is top 10 material. I believe that it is one of the greatest symphonies ever written.


----------



## tahnak

Muddy said:


> I have decided tonight. My own opinion, of course. That Bruckner's 8th Symphony is not just a great symphony. I believe that it is top 10 material. I believe that it is one of the greatest symphonies ever written.


Even God would agree with you.


----------



## Mahlerian

Muddy said:


> I read that when Bruckner introduced his 3rd Symphony to the world, he was the proud conductor. And at the end, he turned to face the "audience" and everybody had left. If true, heartbreaking doesn't do it justice.


Mahler was one of the few left in the auditorium. Unfortunately, according to reports, Bruckner was a pretty lousy orchestral conductor (although a passable choral conductor), and the orchestra was both under-rehearsed and unsympathetic to the music. The audience probably didn't get anything resembling a decent performance of the work.

Personally, I don't care for any version of the 3rd besides the original, anyway, although I find the version that was performed at that concert preferable to the 1889 revision...


----------



## Vaneyes

Anton may be the Rodney Dangerfield of CM.


----------



## hpowders

The one thing they both had in common; they're both dead.


----------



## Itullian

Muddy said:


> I have decided tonight. My own opinion, of course. That Bruckner's 8th Symphony is not just a great symphony. I believe that it is top 10 material. I believe that it is one of the greatest symphonies ever written.


I saw the 8th done by Haitink and the RCO.
Awesome.


----------



## Cheyenne

Itullian said:


> I saw the 8th done by Haitink and the RCO.
> Awesome.


Was that last year? I had tickets -- but couldn't go! My parents went instead.


----------



## Itullian

Cheyenne said:


> Was that last year? I had tickets -- but couldn't go! My parents went instead.


No, several years ago when they toured the USA.


----------



## Muddy

Hey Itullian, I am a huge Tull fan. Saw them in concert 35 years ago. Yes, when all else fails, only Thick as a Brick will do!


----------



## Itullian

Muddy said:


> Hey Itullian, I am a huge Tull fan. Saw them in concert 35 years ago. Yes, when all else fails, only Thick as a Brick will do!


My all time favorite band.


----------



## GraemeG

Muddy said:


> I have decided tonight. My own opinion, of course. That Bruckner's 8th Symphony is not just a great symphony. I believe that it is top 10 material. I believe that it is one of the greatest symphonies ever written.


Top 3 easily...
GG


----------



## chalkpie

Muddy said:


> Hey Itullian, I am a huge Tull fan. Saw them in concert 35 years ago. Yes, when all else fails, only Thick as a Brick will do!


Huge fan here too. I met Ian once in Tarrytown, NY - an amazing cat. Faves are APP, Brick, Minstrel, LiTP, and Songs from the Wood.


----------



## Vaneyes

The 6th is dissected by Mr. Service (linked). Nagano's recording should be heard. I particularly like his sensible use of brass. Klemp's gives me a headache.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/jun/03/symphony-guide-bruckners-6th


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## Avey

These past two weeks, I have listened to each of Bruckner's symphonies, roughly, 4-5 times each. Inspiring.

I used to immediately hold the _9th _above all others, but I am reluctant to voice that same opinion now.

Oddly, or at least surprising to me, with my more thorough review of Bruckner's catalogue, I find his _Second Symphony_ to be so fantastically triumphant and profound that I can only point to this work and say, _Here, in the 2nd, is where *I* discovered Bruckner's epic and spiritual nature._ This is work for the ages.

Other opinions on this piece?

Moreover, I absolutely love the _6th_. And I feel obligated to mention this because after some research, it appears "musicologists" and "critics"--note my caution in using those terms--have difficulties with this work--that is, this piece was unique or abstract, or even tangential in some manner, to Bruckner's historical style. Me, simply a music lover, untrained and unequipped to deal with such sentiments, can only ask: like, why is Bruckner's _Sixth_ different?


----------



## Celloissimo

Avey said:


> Me, simply a music lover, untrained and unequipped to deal with such sentiments, can only ask: like, why is Bruckner's _Sixth_ different?


Because music "critics" are pretentious ******** who degrade others' works to compensate for their own lack of talent. The Sixth Symphony is glorious.


----------



## Mahlerian

Celloissimo said:


> Because music "critics" are pretentious ******** who degrade others' works to compensate for their own lack of talent. The Sixth Symphony is glorious.


Or perhaps because music critics tend to see things differently (not necessarily better, mind you) than the average listener? I can readily hear a number of odd things about Bruckner's Sixth that set it apart from his other works.

For one thing, all of the movements begin in a tonally ambiguous manner. Not too uncommon for Bruckner, to be sure (the finales of the Fourth and Eighth, for example), but for this to extend to every movement is unusual.

The finale has been criticized, even by Brucknerians such as Tintner, as having a rather poor main theme. Personally, I prefer the first half of the symphony to the second half by a good margin (as with the Fourth).

That said, the Adagio is one of my favorite Bruckner slow movements, and the coda of the first movement is justly famous, so the work has a good deal to recommend it.


----------



## Avey

Mahlerian said:


> Personally, I prefer the first half of the symphony to the second half by a good margin (as with the Fourth).
> 
> That said, the Adagio is one of my favorite Bruckner slow movements, and the coda of the first movement is justly famous, so the work has a good deal to recommend it.


Yes, very true. Amazing that I feel the same. I think that must say something:

(1) The Sixth *is *different.

(2) We are working on the same wavelengths, here, and this portends well for my (aural) fates.


----------



## Vaneyes

Reviews for last week's LSO/Haitink *Bruckner 8* (Barbican Hall). No surprises, they're uniformly good.

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_concert_review.php?id=12373

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/oct/24/lso-haitink-review-barbican-bruckner-eighth

http://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/...sic-review-9816144.html?origin=internalSearch


----------



## hpowders

Haitink gives good mainstream performances.


----------



## joen_cph

Vaneyes said:


> Reviews for last week's LSO/Haitink *Bruckner 8* (Barbican Hall). No surprises, they're uniformly good.
> 
> http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_concert_review.php?id=12373
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/oct/24/lso-haitink-review-barbican-bruckner-eighth
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/...sic-review-9816144.html?origin=internalSearch


For me, his digital 1981 recording on Philips remains in the Top-3 or so of that work, none being a definite no.1 or 2.
Nice that Haitink is still going strong.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Some Bruckner fanboys may want to look into 'mature' Delius, he got somewhat more strangely Brucknerian after his (I think much better) 'middle' period of _A Village Romeo and Juliet (1901)_, _Appalachia: Variations on a Slave Song_, _Sea Drift_ (1904) and _A Mass of Life (1905) _.

I've skipped the beginning to where the work lifts up (03:31). 





The work is rather strange. I think it would be better if more concentrated, without some of the repetition, but this is the Bruckner thread so I hope that won't be a problem. The orchestration of some sections could be more varied (compare it to this). Later on it's got a wordless chorus.


----------



## DeepR

I have decided Bruckner 8 is going to be the next piece I hear in concert. It has struck a chord with me and it's still getting better the more I listen to it. It is awesome.
I've been to just a handful of concerts so far, each time for a specific piece that I really, really wanted to hear live. So, this one will be next. One way or another, I will hear it, in this country or another.


----------



## afterpostjack

Anyone else who feels that Bruckner's first movements have especially powerful and emotional codas (especially in symphonies 3, 4, 6, 7, 9)? The one from his 7th was what really got me into him.


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## hpowders

Check out Bruckner 8 with Pierre Boulez leading the Vienna Philharmonic. Never would have expected Boulez to be a Bruckner sympathizer.


----------



## Blancrocher

hpowders said:


> Check out Bruckner 8 with Pierre Boulez leading the Vienna Philharmonic. Never would have expected Boulez to be a Bruckner sympathizer.


It wasn't his idea--I believe the orchestra approached him with the idea, which he was unlikely to come to on his own. It's a masterful recording: makes me wish he'd do them all--in all the various versions of them!


----------



## elgar's ghost

hpowders said:


> Check out Bruckner 8 with Pierre Boulez leading the Vienna Philharmonic. Never would have expected Boulez to be a Bruckner sympathizer.


Quite partial to this one myself, hp - I bought it on spec without reading any reviews and half-expected it to be encased within a 6-inch Darmstadt permafrost. After the first couple of listens I remember thinking that I owed M. Boulez an apology.


----------



## Mahlerian

hpowders said:


> Check out Bruckner 8 with Pierre Boulez leading the Vienna Philharmonic. Never would have expected Boulez to be a Bruckner sympathizer.


In one interview, he praised the richness of Bruckner's harmony, and said that it was unfortunate that his teacher, Messiaen, was unable to see anything in the music, because they had so much in common.


----------



## Orfeo

Mahlerian said:


> In one interview, he praised the richness of Bruckner's harmony, and said that it was unfortunate that his teacher, Messiaen, was unable to see anything in the music, because they had so much in common.


Especially Messiaen's "Illuminations of the Beyond" where I heard hints of Bruckner (his Mass no. II for instance).


----------



## Mahlerian

dholling said:


> Especially Messiaen's "Illuminations of the Beyond" where I heard hints of Bruckner (his Mass no. II for instance).


Yes, they both had:

- A fondness for slow tempos and rates of development
- Block-like construction
- Repetition within sections
- Organ-like orchestration (both being organists)
- A religious and specifically Catholic perspective
- A mixture of tendencies representing both the avant-garde and the conservative
- A love of Wagner


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## hpowders

Blancrocher said:


> It wasn't his idea--I believe the orchestra approached him with the idea, which he was unlikely to come to on his own. It's a masterful recording: makes me wish he'd do them all--in all the various versions of them!


Yes. I know James Levine didn't care for Bruckner either. Even so, it doesn't mean great performances can't result.

Obviously Boulez and Levine placed Mahler at a much higher level than Bruckner.

When cornered, as Mahlerian stated, Boulez praised Bruckner's rich harmonies. However Boulez' recorded legacy indicates Boulez' opinion of Bruckner is probably "lukewarm" at best.

At least the Bruckner 8 is "in the can". More proof that Boulez is one of the greatest conductors ever.


----------



## Andreas

hpowders said:


> However Boulez' recorded legacy indicates Boulez' opinion of Bruckner is probably "lukewarm" at best.


He did conduct the 5th and 9th too, maybe even more. Perhaps they'll see the light of day at some point. The 2012 DG release of Boulez conducting Wagner and Schoenberg was taken from a concert back in 2003. So who knows. And I would think that if he (or any conductor) was willing to prepare Bruckner 5, 8 and 9 for performance, he must have had quite some interest in the composer.


----------



## hpowders

Andreas said:


> He did conduct the 5th and 9th too, maybe even more. Perhaps they'll see the light of day at some point. The 2012 DG release of Boulez conducting Wagner and Schoenberg was taken from a concert back in 2003. So who knows. And I would think that if he (or any conductor) was willing to prepare Bruckner 5, 8 and 9 for performance, he must have had quite some interest in the composer.


Well Boulez recorded Mahler 1-9 and 9 is greater than 3. Leads me to believe Boulez thought Mahler was a greater composer than Bruckner. One would think a conductor of his stature could record practically anything he wished. Nobody forced Mahler 1-9 down his throat.

Throw this rationale out the window if Boulez happens to be a masochist!!


----------



## hpowders

Mahlerian said:


> In one interview, he praised the richness of Bruckner's harmony, and said that it was unfortunate that his teacher, Messiaen, was unable to see anything in the music, because they had so much in common.


Yes. Bruckner and Messiaen did have something in common. 8 letters in their last names.


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## Andreas

hpowders said:


> Well Boulez recorded Mahler 1-9 and 9 is greater than 3. Leads me to believe Boulez thought Mahler was a greater composer than Bruckner.


Three times as great, to be precise.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> Check out Bruckner 8 with Pierre Boulez leading the Vienna Philharmonic. Never would have expected Boulez to be a Bruckner sympathizer.


Well Boulez I don't think "sympathised" with quite a lot of composers :lol:
But that's really a great recording, I'm glad he made it!


----------



## hpowders

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Well Boulez I don't think "sympathised" with quite a lot of composers :lol:
> But that's really a great recording, I'm glad he made it!


Yes. I wish he would have recorded my favorite Bruckner, the 7th. Maybe it's "in the can" somewhere.


----------



## Vaneyes

Andreas said:


> He did conduct the 5th and 9th too, maybe even more. Perhaps they'll see the light of day at some point. The 2012 DG release of Boulez conducting Wagner and Schoenberg was taken from a concert back in 2003. So who knows. And I would think that if he (or any conductor) was willing to prepare Bruckner 5, 8 and 9 for performance, he must have had quite some interest in the composer.


A late bloomer regarding Bruckner. His and Barenboim's words tell part of the tale--scroll to near the end of these texts (links).

http://www.universaledition.com/newsdetail-en/items/boulez-interview

http://www.danielbarenboim.com/journal/barenboim-on-boulez.html

Re Boulez Bruckner, I only know of the 8 CD/DVD and 9 concert performances with CSO and LAPO. Don't know about 5. Who, when, where?:tiphat:


----------



## Andreas

Vaneyes said:


> Re Boulez Bruckner, I only know of the 8 CD/DVD and 9 concert performances with CSO and LAPO. Don't know about 5. Who, when, where?:tiphat:


In 2000 with the CSO, here's a concert review: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...0083_1_bruckner-pierre-boulez-symphony-center

And according to this Bruckner discography, he also conducted the 7th in 2005. (The discography apparently includes bootlegs, such as the two Boulez Bruckner 9ths which are on Youtube.)


----------



## Vaneyes

Andreas said:


> In 2000 with the CSO, here's a concert review: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...0083_1_bruckner-pierre-boulez-symphony-center
> 
> And according to this Bruckner discography, he also conducted the 7th in 2005. (The discography apparently includes bootlegs, such as the two Boulez Bruckner 9ths which are on Youtube.)


Yes, I just discovered and was gonna post. Thanks for taking the time and beating me to it.

Too bad, the shortage of commercial CDs...but nonetheless, a more than respectable Bruckner inventory for Pierre.:tiphat:


----------



## Muddy

DeepR said:


> I have decided Bruckner 8 is going to be the next piece I hear in concert. It has struck a chord with me and it's still getting better the more I listen to it. It is awesome.
> I've been to just a handful of concerts so far, each time for a specific piece that I really, really wanted to hear live. So, this one will be next. One way or another, I will hear it, in this country or another.


DeepR, I agree with you absolutely! I will be sitting above the wonderful Chicago Symphony Orchestra the last weekend in April to hear Bruckner's 8th. I suppose that I'm just nuts, but that adagio makes me cry every time. A good cry, the best cry in the world.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Bruckner's 4th by Eliahu Inbal came in today - I'm planning to start exploring this great composer in more detail. I'm really liking this symphony.


----------



## Haydn man

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Bruckner's 4th by Eliahu Inbal came in today - I'm planning to start exploring this great composer in more detail. I'm really liking this symphony.


I have the Wand version of this and I can recommended that, delightful playing by the BPO.
I am no Bruckner expert but this is the most enjoyable symphony of his I have listened to so far


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

My impressions on the 4th so far:

1st movement: really nice, with those Wagner-esque build-ups and 'explosions', as well as solid melodic writing throughout. 

2nd movement: solid, but somewhat weaker than the 1st movement, imho. Bruckner uses a theme and variation form that takes a bit to 'get going', but gets quite good in the later parts.

3rd movement: nice, imposing and Wagner-esque scherzo - even though there is a sense of 'repetition' in it - the theme disappears, one hears silence, then comes back again - perhaps Bruckner wanted exactly that, to create a sense of a strong rhetorical 'call'. Bruckner doesn't seem to add 'final gestures' to his movements though, they sometimes seem a bit 'abrupt' to me - the fortissimo comes to halt, and the movement is over, whereas the opposite of that would be Brahms's 4th, 1st movement, Beethoven's 5th, 4th movement, Haydn's 52nd, 1st movement, Mozart's 25th, 1st movement, etc.

4th movement: It's the 4th movement and we're hearing the same 'theme' as in all the other ones - fair enough, since Bruckner knows how to manipulate the theme and exploit it in different contexts. Generally, this movement seems somewhat like a '2nd version' of the 1st movement, perhaps the repetition on the theme creates that effect.
There is also some material here that makes me think of the Star Wars theme, hehe, so Bruckner foreshadows things to come. 

Overall, I like the symphony - I think Bruckner would have benefitted from clearer and more punctuated 'ending gestures' to his movements. Bruckner's apprpoach is not sentimental but more symbolic and rhetorical. The orchestration is also quite a feat, especially in the fortissimo sections. 

I remember liking Bruckner's 3rd as well, maybe I'll look into that one next, or his 5th.


----------



## joen_cph

^^^^
Is it Inbal´s recording of the original version of the 4th symphony, very different from the version that it normally played?


----------



## Mahlerian

joen_cph said:


> ^^^^
> Is it Inbal´s recording of the original version of the 4th symphony, very different from the version that it normally played?


Yes. I personally like Simone Young's recording of this version.

You may be interested in hearing Bruckner's revised (and more commonly performed/recorded) version of the symphony, HaydnBearstheClock, which is a bit more streamlined and has a completely rewritten Scherzo movement.

A note though: the themes of the first and fourth movements aren't identical, though they are related and have a similar rhythm.

In regards to Bruckner's endings, they are felt more strongly as "the end" when you become very familiar with the harmonic structure of the work, especially since, as here, he often uses chords other than the dominant to precede the final tonic.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Mahlerian said:


> Yes. I personally like Simone Young's recording of this version.
> 
> You may be interested in hearing Bruckner's revised (and more commonly performed/recorded) version of the symphony, HaydnBearstheClock, which is a bit more streamlined and has a completely rewritten Scherzo movement.
> 
> A note though: the themes of the first and fourth movements aren't identical, though they are related and have a similar rhythm.
> 
> In regards to Bruckner's endings, they are felt more strongly as "the end" when you become very familiar with the harmonic structure of the work, especially since, as here, he often uses chords other than the dominant to precede the final tonic.


Yes, they're not completely identical - I'm not musically educated, but to me it seems that Bruckner used the same intervals, but in a different harmonic 'environment' with regards to the accompaniment. This theme reminds me of Mendelssohn's Paulus oratorio - 'Der Erdkreis', or Haydn's Seasons, in the storm movement, when 'Hilf uns' is sung. The 2nd movement begins with a constant, low, one-note bass accompaniment similar to the 1st Sonata in Haydn's Seven Last Words, imo. Also, I listened to the beginning of Bruckner's 5th and it reminded me quite a bit of the beginning of Michael Haydn's Requiem. If I'm not mistaken, Bruckner was well acquainted with the sacred music of both Haydn brothers and admired it.


----------



## Skilmarilion

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Bruckner's 4th by Eliahu Inbal came in today - I'm planning to start exploring this great composer in more detail. I'm really liking this symphony.


You're in for a treat. For me, they just get better and better as you go along.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

I have to correct myself - I meant the 4th movement with regards to the possible quotation from Haydn's Seven Last Words. I also have to agree with Mahlerian that the theme itself is not exactly identical each time, though it remains instantly recognizable. Point is, Bruckner knows what to do with the theme and I generally like this procedure. I remember finding the 3rd symphony very good, which is the symphony he dedicated to Wagner. That one was at least as epic as no. 4.


----------



## Itullian

Thanks for all the great symphonies AB :tiphat:


----------



## Rehydration

From what I searched no one's mentioned the sacred choral works on this thread yet, and that is _criminal_. There are two that I would like to highlight in particular...

This year my county chorus audition piece is the _Os justi_, and it's beautiful. I wish we were doing the _Christus factus est_, though. I like it better, actually, because of the harmonies and the tonal shifts.

Here are the Monteverdi Choir and the Bristol Chamber Choir singing, respectively.


----------



## Skilmarilion

So I was playing the 7th symphony recently, as you do, and that that long, unwinding melody that opens the first movement just got to me in a way it hadn't before. 

Bruckner spoke of how the melody came to him from the Divine "in a dream" -- whilst apparently there have been doubters of this, don't count me among them. :tiphat:


----------



## padraic

Celibidache. The 8th. I think I have been converted. Good Lord.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Of the choral works I'm fond of the Mass No.2 written in a Palestrina-esque vocal style with wind band accompaniment, still very original.


----------



## padraic

Very rapidly becoming very addicted to Bruckner.


----------



## Lord Lance

padraic said:


> Celibidache. The 8th. I think I have been converted. Good Lord.


_Yes, yesshhhh. Come over to the dark side. Don't forget to buy the Sony issues and the DVDs of his symphonies... _


----------



## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> _Yes, yesshhhh. Come over to the dark side. Don't forget to buy the Sony issues and the DVDs of his symphonies... _


Two thumbs down seriously for the abusing of Star Wars quotations. Didn't like the use of one of my all time favorite movies for Bruckner?

Oh rly? 

Bruckner is not the dark side either. We get Dearth Bruckner and I promise to deliver you Jar Jar Binks a la Salome.


----------



## Lord Lance

Albert7 said:


> Two thumbs down seriously for the abusing of Star Wars quotations. Didn't like the use of one of my all time favorite movies for Bruckner?
> 
> Oh rly?
> 
> Bruckner is not the dark side either. We get Dearth Bruckner and I promise to deliver you Jar Jar Binks a la Salome.


At least, I have a stalker. _What do you have?_

No, I enjoy Star Wars much like any fan. I don't consider it sacred since it certainly wasn't a perfect, holy masterpiece. No, I reserve that for ranks like Rubinstein, Karajan, Bernstein, Celibidache, Richter.


----------



## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> At least, I have a stalker. _What do you have?_
> 
> No, I enjoy Star Wars much like any fan. I don't consider it sacred since it certainly wasn't a perfect, holy masterpiece. No, I reserve that for ranks like Rubinstein, Karajan, Bernstein, Celibidache, Richter.


Star Wars is a space opera. And it's the Parsifal of science fiction film.


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## Lord Lance

Albert7 said:


> Star Wars is a space opera. And it's the Parsifal of science fiction film.


Bombastic and long-winded? I think _not_.


----------



## KenOC

"Jar Jar Binks dies." Didn't know about that. But any day is OK if there's good news.

BTW, kinder critics refer to Bruckner as "long-breathed."


----------



## padraic




----------



## Sherkel

Bruckner has been my favorite composer ever since the start of the three years I've known of his music. I'm still only beginning to understand it, and it's only grown more interesting to me with time. His symphonies are all incredible works of art, and while I'm partial to 5 and 8, I want to make it a goal to gain the most I can from all eleven. (The choral pieces, too, though I'm not as big on vocal music!)


----------



## Vaneyes

A review of Skrow's Halloween treat, Bruckner 5.

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_concert_review.php?id=13223

If you have the opportunity, do make the effort to see Skrowaczewski conduct.


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## Sherkel

It makes me want to try skipping the silence at the end of the Adagio next time I hear the Fifth Symphony, at the very least.


----------



## Skilmarilion

Vaneyes said:


> A review of Skrow's Halloween treat, Bruckner 5.
> 
> http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_concert_review.php?id=13223
> 
> If you have the opportunity, do make the effort to see Skrowaczewski conduct.


Remarkable.


----------



## ViatorDei

Dear Bruckner,

My God! What divine music you have left us! Praised be Our Lord Jesus Christ who endowed you with such talent to write the music of the spheres for His greater glory! While I have always be an ardent disciple of your disciple Mahler, late have I come to appreciate the sacred grandeur of your music. How often do I see your organist's heart transcend the physical boundaries of the church at St. Florian to praise the dear good God through the cosmos with the very strings of creation. While many seek the Creator with much angst and struggle, you have beheld Him in peace and awe, singing your heart's praise. I humbly join my praise to yours each time I listen to your music. You said that your existence was justified upon writing the '_Te Deum_', I can only presume that it most certainly was, to say nothing of your truly mystical symphonies. It is my hope that all those who hear your music are aided in removing the veil of time and glimpse the eternal truths that you have uttered. May your music echo through all eternity in praise of Him whom we worship. Amen.

With the most sincere gratitude,
Viator


----------



## Pugg

ViatorDei said:


> Dear Bruckner,
> 
> My God! What divine music you have left us! Praised be Our Lord Jesus Christ who endowed you with such talent to write the music of the spheres for His greater glory! While I have always be an ardent disciple of your disciple Mahler, late have I come to appreciate the sacred grandeur of your music. How often do I see your organist's heart transcend the physical boundaries of the church at St. Florian to praise the dear good God through the cosmos with the very strings of creation. While many seek the Creator with much angst and struggle, you have beheld Him in peace and awe, singing your heart's praise. I humbly join my praise to yours each time I listen to your music. You said that your existence was justified upon writing the '_Te Deum_', I can only presume that it most certainly was, to say nothing of your truly mystical symphonies. It is my hope that all those who hear your music are aided in removing the veil of time and glimpse the eternal truths that you have uttered. May your music echo through all eternity in praise of Him whom we worship. Amen.
> 
> With the most sincere gratitude,
> Viator]


Can we lower the religion a bit please


----------



## Vaneyes

For those interested, the aforementioned Bruckner 5 with LPO/Skrowaczewski, is soon to be released.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/LPO/LPO0090


----------



## DeepR

DeepR said:


> I have decided Bruckner 8 is going to be the next piece I hear in concert. It has struck a chord with me and it's still getting better the more I listen to it. It is awesome.
> I've been to just a handful of concerts so far, each time for a specific piece that I really, really wanted to hear live. So, this one will be next. One way or another, I will hear it, in this country or another.


I'm in luck again, the local orchestra here will play it next year. Same thing happened with Mahler 2 when I really wanted to hear that piece in concert. Looking forward to it already!


----------



## Avey

RE Bruckner's Seventh (adagio)

I find myself listening to quite a bit of *Bruckner *as of late.

Something in my life has pulled me back in, and I am connecting on sentiments that were once common, but those feelings now somewhat transfigured and wholly new, though still familiar. Same person, different circumstance. 
Life is strange, and great art enters (or reenters) at different times.

So like this started because I heard *Bruckner's Seventh*-not the entire thing, but only the *adagio*-the other day driving home, really late at night, on the freeway, and I had a hard time hearing moments, which is common when driving (road, air etc.). But I heard a single section, measures ~25-29, the first "screaming," if you will, that first release. That section has got to be like the slowest eighth notes ever written.

Anyways, this was all I heard that drive pretty much. So I went home, and I knew I had to listen in full. I did, and then I relistened. Next morning, I listened again. Next evening, listened twice. Woke up, found 20 minutes; I listened to the adagio again. Etc etc.

Now here I am thinking this *Seventh Symphony Adagio*, which I understand to be his most renown, but as I have said previously, some things click on different levels at one point, where you say Oh well with the recognition, because while the greatness you hear is part of that recognition, certainly, there is something else here that makes this is a true foundation of the form of aural art. The music is more than remarkable.

I am thinking about the viola theme: C#-G#-G. This is an axiom, like few others in my book. I am thinking about (see score) m. 157 (Tempo I.) - i.e., the penultimate time the theme is played, and it carries an arpeggiotic line in the violins for like several minutes. M. 157, being like Bach meets Glass - perfect freaking counterpoint. You can literally feel yourself rising. 
I am thinking of the cymbal climax. M. 177, which everyone knows, narrative and etc.

I am thinking that for 20+ minutes, I have not once thought about time or what is happening or spinning globe(s), etc. I have been mesmerized.

What else is like this?

I realize: I like this piece. But it is only today that I get it.


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## Lenny

What I really like in Bruckner's music is this sense of timeliness, being outside of all the turmoil and **** out there in the world. As if he didn't care, he was just talking to God. That's something I personally need in this mad digital age of ours.

Funny thing is this: Stravinsky and his followers were said to be objective, as opposed to romantics, but I find Bruckner's music the most objective there is. He's facing the Omega, can you get more objective than that? Or maybe at the same time, it's the most subjective, or both at the same time.


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## Merl

I'm currently making my way through one of Asahina's symphony cycles (the one on Disque Jean-Jean). Lots of conflicting opinions written online about it but I tell you what, it's bloody good! I've just listened to a very lush 4th and a very moody 7th. It's definitely better than his Beethoven cycle (which has grown on me considerably, tbh). Slower speeds (not pedestrian though) but great playing. I like this a lot. It's good that Asahina doesn't mind slowing it down a bit tocreate a very rewarding soundscape. When I first heard his take on some of my favourite peices I wasnt blown away but he's he's winning me over.


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## Avey

Avey said:


> I find myself listening to quite a bit of *Bruckner *as of late.
> Something in my life has pulled me back in, and I am connecting on sentiments that were once common, but those feelings now somewhat transfigured and wholly new, though still familiar. Same person, different circumstance.
> Life is strange, and great art enters (or reenters) at different times.


Ditto, guy.

Because the above spun me on a total loop these past couple weeks, i.e. just listening to Bruckner. And


Avey said:


> not the entire thing, but only the adagio


 because all my listening sort of confirms my bias toward his music. I really do enjoy several of his symphonies completely -- the Second, the Sixth, the Ninth I should note. Those in full really do please me. The others, however, I am very much partial to moments and sections.

What are those sections? Bruckner Slow Movements. BSM. New noun for sure, and potential adjective: _BSM-like_. Every Bruckner slow movement is preeminent and remarkable. Each is worth praise regardless. A total world of sound and vision and scope. Not a mountaintop (trite), but just like a view and something _wholly freaking real and grand_. Most of these movements surpass the respective composition IMO.

Oh, re The Eighth

I never really liked this symphony, in whole. I always liked the adagio. But


Avey said:


> it is only today that I get it.


 Well said, sir.

The climax is unmistakable and maybe the best single moment in all his symphonic repertoire. I hear this thing in my dreams, in random moments of the day. Not alone, right? The grand rise, the horns bellowing in quarter tones, then a quick half, back to quarter, revert to eight .... Seriously no way I can look like a normal functioning human being during this section.

However, despite all that, I am tempted to say this one section [N] (captured below) is the best part of all. It is so subtle, so complex in its rhythm and dissonance. Yet, all of it in the same time. What is happening here people. Totally bizarre and strange.

= inimitable and painful. Just stunningly mesmerizing. 








EDIT: But, I know, the climax. Hard to get away from. Something permanent I suppose. [[And yes  SKMN) I hear the harps! I hear all of it. Just, ugh, damn!]]


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## Johnnie Burgess

I enjoyed his Symphony # 1 today.


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## Avey

Lenny said:


> What I really like in Bruckner's music is this sense of timeliness, ...


I want to so "like" this post, but the god-type "classical vs. modern" analysis bugs me. I listen to his music. I hear what he wrote. What is different--on an intimate, base, pathos-OK-how-about-just-subjective-YOU-type level--from his music than Philip Glass' Symphony 9, written a few years ago. That is, do we hear/read the assertion that PG is "talking to God" or "facing the Omega" or "romantic" -- I don't know!

Oh, my point being: Some hundred or so years from now, will we think Philip Glass was writing music for the omnipotent (i.e., displaced/nonexistent/perpetual) god? Probably, but should we be reading that into his music NOW and TODAY?!

No one knows. I just don't like to buy into retrospective biographical details about Bruckner and think he was writing this because GOD CONTROLLED HIM or GOD WROTE THIS MUSIC THROUGH HIS BODY. I don't believe that. I cannot believe that.

I just know I like what he wrote just as much as someone in the 'aughts. No objectivity in music. None whatsoever. Again, I like your post, but disagree with the notions.


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## Lenny

Avey said:


> I want to so "like" this post, but the god-type "classical vs. modern" analysis bugs me. I listen to his music. I hear what he wrote. What is different--on an intimate, base, pathos-OK-how-about-just-subjective-YOU-type level--from his music than Philip Glass' Symphony 9, written a few years ago. What PG not "talking to God" or "facing the Omega" or "romantic" -- I don't know!
> 
> No one knows. I just don't like to buy into retrospective biographical details about Bruckner and think he was writing this because GOD CONTROLLED HIM or GOD WROTE THIS MUSIC THROUGH HIS BODY (...FYI that is the objective view...). I don't believe that.
> 
> I just know I like what he wrote just as much as someone in the 'aughts. No objectivity in music. None whatsoever. Again, I like your post, but disagree with the notions.


Fair enough. But please note, I really do believe Bruckner had that sort of mentality. I'd never ever write anything like that about for example Brahms.


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## helenora

Lenny said:


> What I really like in Bruckner's music is this sense of timeliness, being outside of all the turmoil and **** out there in the world. As if he didn't care, he was just talking to God. That's something I personally need in this mad digital age of ours.
> 
> Funny thing is this: Stravinsky and his followers were said to be objective, as opposed to romantics, but I find Bruckner's music the most objective there is. He's facing the Omega, can you get more objective than that? Or maybe at the same time, it's the most subjective, or both at the same time.


absolutely! but may be that's our subjective opinion about "origin" of his works, of his efforts, etc.....
anyway I find our subjectivity as being very agreeable perhaps closer to the point as other subjective opinions


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## Pugg

His Requiem and Te Deum are out of this world .


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## Johnnie Burgess

Itullian said:


> Maestro Bruckner,
> Thank you for all your beautiful, spiritually uplifting symphonies and choral works.
> They nourish my soul and spirit.


Yes thank you for all your great music.


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## helenora

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Yes thank you for all your great music.


his Birthday is today 4th of September.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

helenora said:


> his Birthday is today 4th of September.


For those who don't already know it:






Fröhliche Geburtstag, Anton!


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## brucknerian

This is speculation gone crazy but...

That pensive, hopeful chord on strings, in the Adagio of the 9th, immediately following the giant climax/collapse of that movement: 




Is it mere coincidence that Messiaen, also near to death, uses practically the same chord to begin the last movement of his last work, Éclairs sur l'au-delà? 




Bruckner has become my gateway drug to any number of other composers! haha


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## brucknerian

Also, must mention, I was recently blown away by listening to Bruckner 8, Carragan Edition, conducted by Gerd Schaller on an overnight bus trip from Melbourne to Sydney. Highly recommend it.


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## ViatorDei

THANK YOU Brucknerian! I too was blown away right from the beginning. Finally someone nailed the opening of my all-time favorite movement of symphonic music. The coda is tremendous as well. Wow, you just made my day. Thanks again!


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## brucknerian

ViatorDei said:


> THANK YOU Brucknerian! I too was blown away right from the beginning. Finally someone nailed the opening of my all-time favorite movement of symphonic music. The coda is tremendous as well. Wow, you just made my day. Thanks again!


Glad you enjoyed it!

Couple of other recent finds:

* Giulini rehearsing Bruckner 9. Was so nice hearing some of my favourite passages painstakingly workshopped with the orchestra. I particularly love the bit at 37:20 where you hear just the horn section play the theme of the Adagio, and it sounds almost like the beginning of Messiaen's L'Ascension.

* Michael Gielen's recordings of the standard Bruckner cycle.


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## padraic

My love for Bruckner's music can't be quantified.


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## Pugg

padraic said:


> My love for Bruckner's music can't be quantified.


In a positive or negative way?


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## DeepR

Ich bin so schön, ich bin so toll. Ich bin der Anton aus Tirol!
Anton, Anton, Anton!

(ok, he's not from Tirol but I couldn't help thinking about this stupid song)


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## Merl




----------



## helenora

Merl said:


>


oh, yes, indeed.

I would paraphrase it " my friends blast crappy music...I blast Anton Bruckner!" 

PS I'm so happy Anton used a big orchestra :lol:


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## Sloe

I think Bruckner's wrote the most wonderful and beautiful symphonies ever. I have no idea how anyone can dislike Bruckner's music. It is a mystery to me. Hearing a Bruckner symphony is like a short holiday.


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## DeepR

The building blocks of his music may not always be the most elegant, detailed and finely polished, sometimes a little crude perhaps... but you can't build a skyscraper from pretty gemstones. It is the big and the sturdy stones that make a building rise to great heights and that's exactly what Bruckner achieved with his music.


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## starthrower

Bruckner's symphonies sound like the music of a man who never got laid. Sure, plenty of grand architecture, but there's something vital missing in his music. Better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.


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## Sloe

starthrower said:


> Bruckner's symphonies sound like the music of a man who never got laid. Sure, plenty of grand architecture, but there's something vital missing in his music. Better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.


They sound like music of a great master who was fully devoted to give the world beauty. They miss nothing.

I have recently listened to the sixth symphony a lot:


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## bz3

DeepR said:


> The building blocks of his music may not always be the most elegant, detailed and finely polished, sometimes a little crude perhaps... but you can't build a skyscraper from pretty gemstones. It is the big and the sturdy stones that make a building rise to great heights and that's exactly what Bruckner achieved with his music.


They are big indeed, but quite lovely and versatile. To me only Brahms is more successful at commingling his thematic material across instrument groups, and for my money Bruckner might have the most melodic symphonic themes this side of Tchaikovsky. And while his transitions seem jerky at first, the more I listen the more I find them to have immense grace in their giant steps.



starthrower said:


> Bruckner's symphonies sound like the music of a man who never got laid. Sure, plenty of grand architecture, but there's something vital missing in his music. Better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.


Strange comment. Sure he never married and was obsessed with virginal purity (not an obsession unique to virgins BTW) but how do you know he never loved or even had sex? Would we prefer he die early in syphilic madness after sticking his bits in every "working woman" he could find in Europe, or long for something more spiritual and less carnal that he expresses (beautifully IMO) in his music?

In any case this comment seems just as gauche as if one were to say they can't understand a homosexual's music because it lacks the power of coochie-lust and smells like someone who spent too much time in posteriors.


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## Lenny

bz3 said:


> Sure he never married and was obsessed with virginal purity (not an obsession unique to virgins BTW) but how do you know he never loved or even had sex? Would we prefer he die early in syphilic madness after sticking his bits in every "working woman" he could find in Europe, or long for something more spiritual and less carnal that he expresses (beautifully IMO) in his music?
> 
> In any case this comment seems just as gauche as if one were to say they can't understand a homosexual's music because it lacks the power of coochie-lust and smells like someone who spent too much time in posteriors.


In Bruckner's music I can also hear someone spending decades in the basement studying Palestrina and someone worshipping pictures of corpses. And it's great! 

Seriously, I just read someone writing there's CM and then there's Brucker. It really is a bit strange music (in my books it means great).


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## tdc

I also used to think something vital was missing in Bruckner's music, but not anymore. Something just clicked for me and I see him as one of the best symphonists now. But I can relate to those kinds of comments because I used to feel the same way. I think because he was such a unique artist that kind of reaction is pretty common and a phase many go through in coming to terms with his music. (Of course some never do). But I'm glad I persisted, because his music is amazing and completely unique.


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## David Coleman

But if you listen to his music with the context of what sort of person he was; suffered from poor self-confidence and also had some mental health issues, his achievements were astonishing.
For me Bruckner was one of the major symphonists. A true cycle of symphonies. Each one inspired and influenced by the one before it....


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## Sloe

David Coleman said:


> But if you listen to his music with the context of what sort of person he was; suffered from poor self-confidence and also had some mental health issues, his achievements were astonishing.
> For me Bruckner was one of the major symphonists. A true cycle of symphonies. Each one inspired and influenced by the one before it....


No need to do that the music is splendid in itself.


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## Arent

Bruckner's music may not be as broad in what it encompasses as some composers'. But the man did not do things by halves. The sixth symphony is probably the most underrated, incredibly beautiful throughout, and it never once grinds its gears as some of the others do, just occasionally, in the service of their immense structures.


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## Totenfeier

Second that; the sixth is now my second favorite Bruckner symphony. My favorite is the eighth and ninth!

Having said that, I fully agree that it is severely underrated, incredibly beautiful, and I am beginning to develop the heretical notion the the Adagio of the sixth is more beautiful, on balance, than that of the eighth OR ninth. Very fond of the Scherzo, as well.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> Bruckner's symphonies sound like the music of a man who never got laid. Sure, plenty of grand architecture, but there's something vital missing in his music. Better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.


To truly grasp Bruckner, grasshopper, you must look beyond your mere horniness.


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## millionrainbows

I used to think that there was something missing in Bruckner's music, and Brahms too, but now I get naked and rub lotion all over myself when I listen.


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## scott777

millionrainbows said:


> I used to think that there was something missing in Bruckner's music, and Brahms too, but now I get naked and rub lotion all over myself when I listen.


Surely now you will never grasp it!


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## Vaneyes

millionrainbows said:


> I used to think that there was something missing in Bruckner's music, and Brahms too, but now I get naked and rub lotion all over myself when I listen.


*"Which lotion?"

*


----------



## rw181383

I came across this recording on Spotify:









I've been listening to and studying this symphony for over 10 years (over 50 recordings) and this performance goes straight into my top three.

Has anyone else heard it?


----------



## Roger Knox

Haven't heard this recording yet. Herbig was well-respected in this repertoire during his posts with the Detroit and Toronto Symphonies, where I heard him conduct.


----------



## Zhdanov

question to Bruckner fans: how often you listen to Wagner operas?


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## Janspe

Zhdanov said:


> question to Bruckner fans: how often you listen to Wagner operas?


Not too often, but that's not because I don't enjoy Wagner's music - in fact, I quite love it! - but because I struggle to find time for his gigantic works. It's not every afternoon that one finds a suitable spot for _Parsifal_...


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## Granate

rw181383 said:


> I came across this recording on Spotify:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been listening to and studying this symphony for over 10 years (over 50 recordings) and this performance goes straight into my top three.
> 
> Has anyone else heard it?


I did yesterday

Probably around the 50s of my top 69 of B5. The conducting is just ok, and it's quite brassy in the balance.


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## Granate

Zhdanov said:


> question to Bruckner fans: how often you listen to Wagner operas?


I look forward to my Wagner challenge. My answer to you at this moment is: almost never.


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## bz3

Zhdanov said:


> question to Bruckner fans: how often you listen to Wagner operas?


As often as I listen to any other composer besides Schumann, Bach, Brahms, Handel and Beethoven. These two composers' spiritual connection is obvious to me, and I'm one of those terrible people that listens to single movements of symphonies quite often (post-Classical era symphonies, of course).


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## rw181383

Granate said:


> I did yesterday
> 
> Probably around the 50s of my top 69 of B5. The conducting is just ok, and it's quite brassy in the balance.


What are your top ten?


----------



## Granate

*My Top 5 (also check my Bruckner challenges...)*



rw181383 said:


> What are your top ten?


*Check the whole top here*



Granate said:


> Good
> ...
> 10th: Thielemann MPO
> 9th: Karajan BPO
> 8th: Furtwängler BPO
> 7th: Karajan WSO
> 
> Very good
> 6th: Celibidache RSOS
> 5th: Matačić NHKSO
> 4th: Barenboim BPO
> 3rd: Blomstedt LGO
> 2nd: Jochum RCO Live 1986
> 1st: Celibidache MPO


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## Merl

Not heard that Blomstedt Bruckner cycle yet. It gets some glowing reviews. Is it worthy of them, Granate?


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## Granate

Merl said:


> Not heard that Blomstedt Bruckner cycle yet. It gets some glowing reviews. Is it worthy of them, Granate?


Hmm. My reaction throughout the first challenge to the Blomstedt cycle has been like a mixed box. Sometimes I heard it in a different way to other symphonies because of the sound quality. Probably for the competition with other recordings. I really like his No.1 and No.5, for me one of the best of the discography. I also rate highly from that set No.6 and No.9.

You can buy the Blomstedt recordings individually.

However, if you want to purchase a SACD cycle, in my opinion *Challenge Classics' Bruckner cycle by Jaap van Zweden* combines the best sound quality with very good performances throughout the whole cycle (well, he's kinda weak in the mature symphonies 7-9). If you also want 00 and 0 in SACD, you don't need to go further than the individual releases by Simone Young for Oehms.


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## Merl

Granate said:


> If you also want 00 and 0 in SACD, you don't need to go further than the individual releases by Simone Young for Oehms.


I have all of Young's cycle. It's brilliant.


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## GraemeG

Merl said:


> I have all of Young's cycle. It's brilliant.


She conducted 5 with the Sydney Symphony here two weeks ago. Maybe a bit pacey for some, but excellent overall, and the orchestra was pin-point accurate and hugely intense. That all said, I still struggle with the fragmentary, episodic nature of 5, which I like less than 4 and 6-9. And indeed maybe even 3; again, in Young fine Hamburg recording of the 1873 version.
cheers,
Graeme


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## rw181383

This has always fascinated and satisfied me greatly: Karajan's unique touch in the 1st movement of Bruckner's 4th (Haas - 1878/80 - EMI/DG, but more pronounced in the EMI because of the broader tempi). In mm. 46-50 and in the recap at mm. 408-412, Karajan has the first violins jump up a Major 7th-using a beautiful portamento-to B-flat (instead of going down a half-step from C-flat) and has them stay there for four measures. It's such a beautiful and profound touch!

Having listened to over 80 recordings, I have not found another conductor who does this. Has anyone else found this in another recording or live performance? I've attached two images from the score, a performance with the usual half-step down (Thielemann), and the Karajan (EMI) to compare.


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## Manxfeeder

rw181383 said:


> This has always fascinated and satisfied me greatly: Karajan's unique touch in the 1st movement of Bruckner's 4th (Haas - 1878/80 - EMI/DG, but more pronounced in the EMI because of the broader tempi). In mm. 46-50 and in the recap at mm. 408-412, Karajan has the first violins jump up a Major 7th-using a beautiful portamento-to B-flat (instead of going down a half-step from C-flat) and has them stay there for four measures. It's such a beautiful and profound touch!


I've heard that Karajan recording tons of times, and it never registered with me that he was departing from the score, but now that you mention it, that is a lovely touch. It adds a sense of transcendence.


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## millionrainbows

I'm relatively new to Bruckner, and recently got the Hanssler box. after Symphonies 00, 0, and No. 1, I am a serious convert. I think I like him more than Mahler. He is very focussed, he always has good, recognizable themes, and great contrasts in the textures. A great sense of grandeur.


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> I'm relatively new to Bruckner, and recently got the Hanssler box. after Symphonies 00, 0, and No. 1, I am a serious convert. I think I like him more than Mahler. He is very focussed, he always has good, recognizable themes, and great contrasts in the textures. A great sense of grandeur.


That's promising. I'm new to Bruckner and I don't quite get it yet, though I know there is something there. I felt the same way about Mahler at first, so I'll persist with him.


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## millionrainbows

Bruckner, I admit, has a much more "basic" straightforward approach than Mahler, so it's really not fair that I compare the two. I guess what I mean is in the "huge" symphony genre, it's nice to hear something as focussed as Bruckner. His ideas are always good, and interesting, and have interesting developments and elaborations.


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## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> That's promising. I'm new to Bruckner and I don't quite get it yet, though I know there is something there. I felt the same way about Mahler at first, so I'll persist with him.


Once your ears open up to the things Bruckner has to say, there will be no going back... Be warned. 

After delving into the symphonies and discovering the works you like the most, try attending as many live performances you possibly can. It really makes a difference - this is true with any composer of course, but I think in the case of Bruckner even more so. I remember not understanding the 6th at all but then hearing it live - _boom!_ The pieces of the puzzle fell into their places and now the work is very dear to me.


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## flamencosketches

Been really enjoying a few Bruckner recordings lately: the Böhm/Vienna 4th, the Karajan/Vienna 7th and 8th, and the Tintner/Royal Scottish National Orchestra 9th. Of these I’d say I like the 4th best, but the 9th is great too. I have been listening to just one or two movements at a time. Makes more sense to me that way. I can often listen to a Mahler symphony start to finish without losing any attentiveness, but I just can’t say the same for Bruckner. 

The Vienna Philharmonic is a great orchestra for Bruckner. What are some other good ones? As for conductors, another I intend to explore in this repertoire is Wand. I heard and enjoyed his Bruckner 4th with the NDR Symphony. Also, Karajan is surprisingly good with Bruckner, I think.


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## Littlephrase

Jochum is another conductor of preference. Some like Celibidache, but outside of the 4th, I can’t really enjoy his languorous direction.


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## flamencosketches

Jochum is famous for his Bruckner. What’s a good recording of his? A really good one.


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## Azol

Jochum tends to be a very "idiomatic" conductor when it comes to Bruckner and I just can't stand this approach. Maybe if you believe Bruckner to be a "boring" composer, then a conductor who tries to "enliven" or "animate" Bruckner's monumental scores should definitely sound appealing.
With apologies to every Jochum fan out there, but this is not my cup of tea (Bruckner would have preferred beer anyway).


----------



## Guest

Jochum's DG cycle has very problematic sound, badly balanced. I like his EMI cycle better, although it is far from my favorite. Karajan was a master but his DG cycle also suffers from less than ideal sound. His EMI recordings and the two late WPO recordings are gorgeous. My favorite Bruckner cycle is the original Haitink/CO cycle and the Chailly/CO cycle. I like Bruckner with a slightly soft touch.


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## joen_cph

I prefer Jochum's DG to the EMI, which I find more subdued. But's it's not that Jochum did my favourite version of the single symphonies. Listening suggestion: no.9 /DG.


----------



## Guest

joen_cph said:


> I prefer Jochum's DG to the EMI, which I find more subdued. But's it's not that Jochum did my favourite version of the single symphonies. Listening suggestion: no.9 /DG.


In Bruckner I like subdued. I found Jochum/DG/Bruckner 8 unlistenable, principal trumpet drowning out the entire orchestra in the first movement. I remember thinking Bruckner 4 from the series was ok. I haven't listened to all of it. The mono DG recordings from the 50's sounded better to me.


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## joen_cph

Baron Scarpia said:


> In Bruckner I like subdued. I found Jochum/DG/Bruckner 8 unlistenable, principal trumpet drowning out the entire orchestra in the first movement. I remember thinking Bruckner 4 from the series was ok. I haven't listened to all of it. The mono DG recordings from the 50's sounded better to me.


I found the DG 8th not uinteresting, but generally too fast and rather light. Haitink's first digital is one of my favourites there.


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## NLAdriaan

Jochum and Karajan are no match for Wand's Bruckner recordings with the BPO.
Wand gives you the freshest and most fluent Bruckner and the BPO is the better version of the VPO, especially the brass section is better.


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## Manxfeeder

NLAdriaan said:


> Jochum and Karajan are no match for Wand's Bruckner recordings with the BPO.
> Wand gives you the freshest and most fluent Bruckner and the BPO is the better version of the VPO, especially the brass section is better.


Well, rats. I always do this when it comes to Wand: some say Berlin, some say Cologne. I get confused, then give up. It looks like I'll be pulling this up on Spotify.


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## flamencosketches

^There's also the NDR Sinfonieorchester Wand recordings. I like the 4th, but I'm not well versed in Bruckner at all. 

Seems Jochum's approach is controversial. @Azol, could you explain what you mean by using "idiomatic" as a disparaging term...? I'm really not sure I understand you. So you're saying he "enlivens" Bruckner's scores – by doing what, exactly?

I always liked the Vienna Philharmonic more than the Berlin. Couldn't tell you why. Maybe they just tended to get the better conductors. I think their recordings with Böhm, Boulez, Bernstein, and Abbado are generally amazing.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Seems Jochum's approach is controversial. @Azol, could you explain what you mean by using "idiomatic" as a disparaging term...? I'm really not sure I understand you. So you're saying he "enlivens" Bruckner's scores - by doing what, exactly?


I would never think of Jochum's Bruckner as controversial, except for the dated sound. It is a mainstream approach, which not everyone likes. In the end you have to listen and judge for yourself what you like.

I doubt there is any genuinely bad Bruckner on record, just Bruckner not everyone prefers. I'd put Solti at the bottom of the heap, based on what I've heard and what I like. It is not "bad" by any stretch of the imagination. Just not the way I like it.


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## MrMeatScience

NLAdriaan said:


> the BPO is the better version of the VPO, especially the brass section is better.


Those are fighting words around these parts...


----------



## Azol

Manxfeeder said:


> Well, rats. I always do this when it comes to Wand: some say Berlin, some say Cologne. I get confused, then give up. It looks like I'll be pulling this up on Spotify.


NDR is what I prefer with Wand. They played for him magnificently (I did not enjoy his later Berlin affair as much to be honest with you). Very recommended.


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## Azol

flamencosketches said:


> Seems Jochum's approach is controversial. @Azol, could you explain what you mean by using "idiomatic" as a disparaging term...? I'm really not sure I understand you. So you're saying he "enlivens" Bruckner's scores - by doing what, exactly?


I didn't mean it to sound disparaging (maybe due to the fact English is not my native language), but surely I hear many things in Jochum's recordings that characterizes the conductor, not the composer. Things that are not in the score (for example some strange accents here and there, short crescendos, accelerandos etc) pop out at your face and distract from the music flow. The reason for more embellishments? I do not know... maybe to keep listeners from falling asleep? Great variations of speed, to the point when certain passages _feel_ slower than even Celibidache in his last period. Distractions, distractions...


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Bruckner, I admit, has a much more "basic" straightforward approach than Mahler, so it's really not fair that I compare the two. I guess what I mean is in the "huge" symphony genre, it's nice to hear something as focussed as Bruckner. His ideas are always good, and interesting, and have interesting developments and elaborations.


That's a good basic analysis. I just can't seem to grasp what Bruckner is trying to communicate to the listener? He constantly vacillates between soft passages and brass fueled fanfares. But it feels to me like a man living in isolation, a loner. I do enjoy the beautiful passages.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> That's a good basic analysis. I just can't seem to grasp what Bruckner is trying to communicate to the listener? He constantly vacillates between soft passages and brass fueled fanfares. But it feels to me like a man living in isolation, a loner. I do enjoy the beautiful passages.


I also wonder what he is trying to communicate. To me, his music reminds me something of the Watts towers, as if he built these huge, towering, enigmatic monoliths, to the indifference of the other people of his time, only for their greatness and magnitude to be observed after his death. It's telling that the symphonic towers he built are still standing 120 years down the line, but I wonder if anyone really knows why he composed them...? Is it some kind of monument to his God...? Mahler's huge symphonies are a lot more readily understandable, I think... Too soon for me to tell in any case.












Azol said:


> I didn't mean it to sound disparaging (maybe due to the fact English is not my native language), but surely I hear many things in Jochum's recordings that characterizes the conductor, not the composer. Things that are not in the score (for example some strange accents here and there, short crescendos, accelerandos etc) pop out at your face and distract from the music flow. The reason for more embellishments? I do not know... maybe to keep listeners from falling asleep? Great variations of speed, to the point when certain passages _feel_ slower than even Celibidache in his last period. Distractions, distractions...


Thanks for elaborating! I understand what you're saying now, especially after listening to a few of maestro Jochum's recordings. He is extremely variable with his tempi! Though I don't see this as a flaw in itself, I also was inclined to question his motives.


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## Itullian

Picture a huge church organ. Bruckner was an organist.
And a devout Catholic.
They are spires and towers to God.
imho


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## starthrower

Itullian said:


> Picture a huge church organ. Bruckner was an organist.
> And a devout Catholic.
> They are spires and towers to God.
> imho


I think this is true. I keep listening and waiting for some passage to hit something deep in my soul but I haven't experienced this yet. But I realize he's communing with his creator and conveying the awe and majesty he feels towards his God.


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## Azol

Interesting thing to notice: Bruckner uses timpani very sparingly, mostly as a kind of organ bass pedal point. For example check out his brilliant build-up to the coda of the Sym. 7's 1st Movement! Or certain passages in his Fourth Symphony... Sometimes you become aware of timpani when they cease. A true Bruckner conductor should understand all these "fine points" very well to be able to convey composer's intentions.


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## millionrainbows

I'm listening to the Second Symphony, and the end of the first movement has a lovely theme, which approaches the transcendent.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> I think this is true. I keep listening and waiting for some passage to hit something deep in my soul but I haven't experienced this yet. But I realize he's communing with his creator and conveying the awe and majesty he feels towards his God.


Aren't ALL composers doing this, in one sense or another? I think so.

Now I'm listening to the third "Adagio" movement of Symphony No. 2. In its own way, it's as beautiful as any adagio that Mahler ever wrote. _Oops,_ I said I wouldn't compare.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Aren't ALL composers doing this, in one sense or another? I think so.


I suppose? But for some, music itself is their God. I got interrupted earlier from listening to Nagano's No.6 so I'll get back to it tonight.


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## starthrower

I went back and listened to the sixth again. Lots of Bah ba ba ba ba bah... with some calm interludes in between.


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## joen_cph

Those perpetual, inherent contrasts add another, extra dimension of space and time to the music. 
Something beyond the mere ongoings.

There was another discussion of it earlier, but I'm not able to trace and copy right now.


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## starthrower

I dunno? I keep waiting for Bruckner to take the music somewhere else, but it never happens. The architecture of a cathedral however grand doesn't warrant spending one's entire day inside. The actual image I had in my head while listening to no. 6 was of some sheep grazing peacefully in a lush green valley only to be startled periodically by by a group of shepherds blowing loud horns. And it keeps repeating.


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> I went back and listened to the sixth again. Lots of Bah ba ba ba ba bah... with some calm interludes in between.


There is a bit more to it than that.  One of my favorite symphonies.


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## joen_cph

I don't associate his music with painterly images, except perhaps some cosmic or elementary forces, but though his possible ideas for the 4th are somewhat naive, say like those of Weber's great Konzertstuck, at least they involve a more crowdedly spectacular activity/manifoldness.


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## starthrower

Baron Scarpia said:


> There is a bit more to it than that.  One of my favorite symphonies.


I'll try it again by a different conductor. I have the Skrow... Can't spell his name cycle on The Challenge Classics label.


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## joen_cph

It's a good and quite lively set, though.


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## starthrower

I'm still exploring. I've really only listened to a few of the Symphonies in the set. 5, 7,8. I have other recordings of 4 and 9 by Rogner, and Wand.


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## joen_cph

What I've heard/have by Rogner (not 4 and 9 I think, as far as I remember) has been good too. He's generally not on the boring team. The 9th must be one of the most modern-sounding, least naively image-loaded, IMO, except perhaps for the very brutal Scherzo.


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## flamencosketches

joen_cph said:


> What I've heard/have by Rogner (not 4 and 9 I think, as far as I remember) has been good too. He's generally not on the boring team. The 9th must be one of the most modern-sounding, least naively image-loaded, IMO, except perhaps for the very brutal Scherzo.


Who's on the boring team?


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## joen_cph

IMO some of the more reputed HvKs, Wands and Klemps, for example. Not everything they recorded, of course. But I know this is a minority view, obviously.


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## flamencosketches

Interesting. I listened to some of Klemperer's 8th this morning, and the description under the video said "Not Klemperer's finest moment", but I thought it was really good. Didn't sound particularly slow to me, but then I'm not familiar with the symphony. I understand he cut a big chunk from the final movement, which pissed some folks off. I like everything I've heard of Klemperer (Brahms, Mozart, Mahler, and a bit of Bruckner) and I like his style, but I can see how it's not for everyone! Also, I suspect his Beethoven is probably not good. Ditto Karajan; I like his style but totally understand why people don't. I haven't heard any of his Berlin Bruckner recordings, but his late recordings of the 7th and 8th with the Vienna Philharmonic are really good, I think. 

Wand, I like everything I've heard. I think I'm going to get his Köln cycle in the dirt cheap RCA budget box.

Karl Böhm's Bruckner 4th is riveting. Has he recorded much else as far as Bruckner symphonies? Apparently the 3rd is pretty good...?


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## millionrainbows

Thumbs down to Klaus Tennstedt conducting Bruckner. Too much bombast, too many dramatic pauses, not enough continuity. Some people, I'm sure, love it. This was the Third, BTW.


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## flamencosketches

^Thanks for the note MR. Do you like his recordings of Mahler? I was thinking they might be worth getting into. I've heard a couple of movements here and there and enjoyed him. Of course, the conductors who excel in Mahler are not the same ones who excel in Bruckner with maybe a few exceptions (Klemperer?), just curious.


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## starthrower

I have the Tennstedt Mahler box but I don't listen to it much. I prefer Bernstein, Boulez, and Gielen.


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## Granate

Flamenco, two things here. I agree on you about the controversial Bruckner no.8. It's extremelly well-played and conducted for me although everything becomes a mess in the Finale with all those cuts and an odd performance of that movement.

*Tennstedt's Mahler* is my favourite set of all I've listened to although I'm currently revising many other cycles. The hardest thing of this is that you should never stick to the Studio cycle to form an opinion about his performance style. He gets much wilder in Live performaces, *but your experience will be positive if you favour excitement and surprise factor-over sound and playing quality.*

Unfortunately, the spectacular 9CD set of Mahler live performances released by LPO label is much more expensive than a year ago. It certainly covers many weak spots of the Studio cycle in my opinion, whether you like better the Live 1981 or the Live 1989 performances of No.2, they are notably more exciting than the studio account.



The studio sets by Warner are two of the cheapest in the market, but it will depend on your curiosity for the live performances included in the black box. They are currently a bit overpriced compared to a year ago (around 23 pounds each of the black and purple box). My suggestion is to avoid Tennstedt or go all the way. Now going all the way would be really expensive. *So my suggestion is that you get the Bernstein later DG* which is now much cheaper than I saw in the past. *Only 24 pounds plus delivery.* I didn't buy it because I didn't want to underplay the Tennstedt recordings I already have and treasure.



For some pounds more, EMI sells the *Gary Bertini* cycle played by the same orchestra that recorded the Bruckner cycle with Günter Wand. I'm listening to it right now and the Sound Quality is quite amazing. Maybe this is not what I'm looking in performance style for Mahler, but it should be perfect for you if you invest money in two good Bruckner and Mahler cycles under the same orchestra


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> ^Thanks for the note MR. Do you like his recordings of Mahler? I was thinking they might be worth getting into. I've heard a couple of movements here and there and enjoyed him. Of course, the conductors who excel in Mahler are not the same ones who excel in Bruckner with maybe a few exceptions (Klemperer?), just curious.


I don't have any of his Mahler.

What I'm searching for in Bruckner is restraint, a sense of continuity, with no drama. This may strike some as weird. I want Bruckner to be more like Mozart than Beethoven or Wagner.


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## DavidA

flamencosketches said:


> Jochum is famous for his Bruckner. What's a good recording of his? A really good one.


Try his DG 9th with the BPO which is fabulous


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## DavidA

I find both these sets superb


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## DavidA

And these


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## DavidA

And this was his last recording. Really fine. Different from the others


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## flamencosketches

@Granate (at risk of derailing the thread further into Mahler talk...) I have the Bernstein Sony set with the 1960s NYPO recordings. It is just excellent, I couldn't ask for a better set. BUT I am considering getting another set to gain more of a balanced perspective, and the ones I am looking at include Tennstedt on Warner (which includes his 9 studio symphony recordings + Das Lied, I believe, and then 5, 6, and 7 Live), and then Bertini EMI with the Köln Radio Symphony (I never put it together until now that it's the same orchestra as on the Wand cycle!), and finally, Klemperer/Philharmonia on EMI. This latter cycle only includes 2, 4, 7, 9, and Das Lied, but I love all of Klemperer's Mahler recordings that I've heard. Vaguely interested in Boulez as well, but haven't heard a recording of his Mahler that really convinced me just yet, though he is otherwise perhaps my favorite conductor. I'm not interested in Bernstein/DG for now just because I am looking for a fresh perspective and I already love Bernstein. One day maybe 5 years down the line I'll give it a shot. 

@MillionR, I hear you. I definitely agree that Bruckner should be played with a sense of restraint. You should definitely look into Karl Böhm's recording of the 4th with the Vienna Philharmonic. Perhaps worthy of note to you that Böhm's recordings of Mozart's symphonies and operas with the same orchestra are phenomenal and widely acclaimed. 

@DavidA, that Jochum Berlin 9th was recommended to me by someone else the other day, so I listened to it and enjoyed. What I found interesting, though, is that vis-à-vis the other Bruckner 9ths I've heard (Klemperer, Tintner), he really plays fast and loose with the tempi. The whole first movement is a dramatic roller coaster. And while it sounded excellent, it struck me as a little idiosyncratic, no? Is this maybe characteristic of his Bruckner cycles, both of them...?


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## flamencosketches

DavidA said:


> View attachment 121549
> 
> 
> And this was his last recording. Really fine. Different from the others


I ordered this a few days ago. Really liked what I heard.


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## DavidA

millionrainbows said:


> I don't have any of his Mahler.
> 
> What I'm searching for in Bruckner is restraint, a sense of continuity, *with no drama*. This may strike some as weird. I want Bruckner to be more like Mozart than Beethoven or Wagner.


You mean dull as ditchwater? No thanks!


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## flamencosketches

I told myself I was going to stay away from Celibidache for now, but...









... I found this at a local record store, brand new, unopened, for $2. I had to go for it. Kicking myself now for putting back another Bruckner find, the 3rd symphony with Günter Wand and the NDR Symphony. Damn! Should have grabbed that one too... anyway, the Celi should be interesting. From what I've heard, this is perhaps his greatest Bruckner recording...?

I love the album artwork. There is also the following hilarious quote from the conductor on the back of the case:

"There are so-called Bruckner conductors who've never played a Bruckner symphony! These camel drivers haven't understood a thing about Bruckner."

I wonder who he is referring to :lol: Karajan and the like?


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## Manxfeeder

flamencosketches said:


> I told myself I was going to stay away from Celibidache for now, but...


You sound like me until last year. Then his whole Bruckner cycle popped up at my used CD store ranging between 75 cents and 2.50 each. That was worth the risk.

I agree, the 4th is his best. But to be honest, I discovered that I like them all. Except the Te Deum.


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## flamencosketches

Manxfeeder said:


> You sound like me until last year. Then his whole Bruckner cycle popped up at my used CD store ranging between 75 cents and 2.50 each. That was worth the risk.
> 
> I agree, the 4th is his best. But to be honest, I discovered that I like them all. Except the Te Deum.


Nice! I can't believe this one was unopened, and priced so low. I'm really regretting not going for that Wand/NDR, though. It's a symphony I've not heard (No.3) and it was also only a couple bucks. I'll have to go back for it. I may try and check out the first movement of that Celi later on tonight. It's a whole 12 minutes longer than the Böhm Bruckner 4th I've been listening to :lol:


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## flamencosketches

Well, this is actually really good. The orchestra sounds phenomenal, crystal clear, but still powerful. I think it's too slow. But this is a worthy interpretation. I see why people like Celi in Bruckner. I could never listen to the whole symphony in one go. Let alone his Bruckner 5th or 8th... 

@MillionRainbows, I think you owe this recording a listen. Sergiu Celibidache, Müncher Philharmoniker Bruckner Symphony No.4 on EMI. Seriously, I think you might like it. Lines up with your previously stated thoughts on Bruckner interpretation, I think.


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## flamencosketches

Let me ask perhaps an odd question. Do orchestras like playing Bruckner, or do they see it as a chore? I can imagine practicing these huge symphonies for long hours must get really old, especially if they're working under one of those conductors who is dead set on playing the whole cycle. Are the parts that he writes particularly interesting to play, as a rule? Does he write fascinating parts for certain instruments and less so for others? Just curious. I can just picture a second violinist somewhere upon seeing the program for the upcoming season unveiled for the first time thinking "oh great, Bruckner's 8th again ". But perhaps it's a joy to play these works...? Certainly seems like a treat for the conductor at least, a good challenge.


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## Azol

Manxfeeder said:


> You sound like me until last year. Then his whole Bruckner cycle popped up at my used CD store ranging between 75 cents and 2.50 each. That was worth the risk.
> 
> I agree, the 4th is his best. But to be honest, I discovered that I like them all. Except the Te Deum.


5th and 6th are revelatory.
8th Adagio is the one to die for. Heavenly.
9th is maligned with slowest Scherzo ever imaginable. The weakest link in the whole cycle. The only one I must add.


----------



## Becca

flamencosketches said:


> Let me ask perhaps an odd question. Do orchestras like playing Bruckner, or do they see it as a chore? I can imagine practicing these huge symphonies for long hours must get really old, especially if they're working under one of those conductors who is dead set on playing the whole cycle. Are the parts that he writes particularly interesting to play, as a rule? Does he write fascinating parts for certain instruments and less so for others? Just curious. I can just picture a second violinist somewhere upon seeing the program for the upcoming season unveiled for the first time thinking "oh great, Bruckner's 8th again ". But perhaps it's a joy to play these works...? Certainly seems like a treat for the conductor at least, a good challenge.


I can't speak for the 2nd violins but we can let the horn players speak for themselves...


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## flamencosketches

Well, of course the horn players are going to like it. Horns are what Bruckner's music is all about. 

Still. I bet their parts are damn hard. It's not like your average hornist can just pick up a Wagner tuba and belt out one of those flowing lines, either.


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## flamencosketches

What do we think of this recording? I know Klemperer's Bruckner is less that universally admired, but I'd say this is the best Bruckner 9th first movement of the few that I've heard.


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## Granate

^^

You've heard *few*. Anyways, Klemperer's Bruckner is one of the most compelling to explore, especially his Symphony No.4.


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## flamencosketches

Granate said:


> ^^
> 
> You've heard *few*. Anyways, Klemperer's Bruckner is one of the most compelling to explore, especially his Symphony No.4.


Very few, maybe 3, 4?


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## Granate

^^

Not going to pressure you. I've been exploring Bruckner recordings and versions for almost 3 years. I'm still learning. I follow my passion, so follow yours first.

Although my experience with Bruckner 9 has been quite unsatisfactory when searching for great recordings. I don't find many who could top up with the deserved fan-favourite Giulini. If you also like Karajan's Vienna No.7, collecting the Karajan No.8 and Giulini No.9 from the same orchestra should be a daunting and thrilling experience.


----------



## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> I told myself I was going to stay away from Celibidache for now, but...
> 
> View attachment 121567
> 
> 
> ... I found this at a local record store, brand new, unopened, for $2. I had to go for it. Kicking myself now for putting back another Bruckner find, the 3rd symphony with Günter Wand and the NDR Symphony. Damn! Should have grabbed that one too... anyway, the Celi should be interesting. From what I've heard, this is perhaps his greatest Bruckner recording...?
> 
> I love the album artwork. There is also the following hilarious quote from the conductor on the back of the case:
> 
> "There are so-called Bruckner conductors who've never played a Bruckner symphony! These camel drivers haven't understood a thing about Bruckner."
> 
> I wonder who he is referring to :lol: Karajan and the like?


He could be referring to anyone, tbh. Celi rarely had a good word to say about most of his peers. He didnt like Karajan cos he got the BPO job ahead of him (Celi's fault for upsetting most of the orchestra).


----------



## DavidA

flamencosketches said:


> I told myself I was going to stay away from Celibidache for now, but...
> 
> View attachment 121567
> 
> 
> ... I found this at a local record store, brand new, unopened, for $2. I had to go for it. Kicking myself now for putting back another Bruckner find, the 3rd symphony with Günter Wand and the NDR Symphony. Damn! Should have grabbed that one too... anyway, the Celi should be interesting. From what I've heard, this is perhaps his greatest Bruckner recording...?
> 
> I love the album artwork. There is also the following hilarious quote from the conductor on the back of the case:
> 
> *"There are so-called Bruckner conductors who've never played a Bruckner symphony! These camel drivers haven't understood a thing about Bruckner."*
> 
> I wonder who he is referring to :lol: Karajan and the like?


Afraid this sort of nonsense just makes me not want to hear such a sourpuss, whoever he was referring to. I know conducting is a profession where modesty is rare but what an idiot! :lol:


----------



## Guest

DavidA said:


> Afraid this sort of nonsense just makes me not want to hear such a sourpuss, whoever he was referring to. I know conducting is a profession where modesty is rare but what an idiot! :lol:


Ignore his recordings and you will be respecting his wishes. He felt recordings of classical music were illegitimate and only after his death did his progeny decide to cash in on papa by authorizing release of the recordings.


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## DavidA

Baron Scarpia said:


> Ignore his recordings and you will be respecting his wishes. He felt recordings of classical music were illegitimate and only after his death did his progeny decide to cash in on papa by authorizing release of the recordings.


I have heard some of his recordings and will respect his wishes with pleasure. Music is like gravy - I like it to move!


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## NLAdriaan

Merl said:


> He could be referring to anyone, tbh. Celi rarely had a good word to say about most of his peers. He didnt like Karajan cos he got the BPO job ahead of him (Celi's fault for upsetting most of the orchestra).


A bit off topic for a Bruckner thread (however, Bruckner and women is a weird history), but Celi and the Munich Philharmonic orchestra made more than only music, as you can see from this somewhat lengthy docu about the female solo (?!) trombonist of the Munich Philharmonic:





Or for a more comprehensive English read:
https://www.wqxr.org/story/trombonist-got-job-munich-philharmonic-then-she-fought-them-court-13-years/


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## flamencosketches

^I heard about this... apparently, Celibidache hired her off a blind audition, then after later finding out she was a woman, he was a real a**hole to her during her tenure. This is one more story that put me off of Celi. Clearly a real old-school guy.


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> Well, this is actually really good. The orchestra sounds phenomenal, crystal clear, but still powerful. I think it's too slow. But this is a worthy interpretation. I see why people like Celi in Bruckner. I could never listen to the whole symphony in one go. Let alone his Bruckner 5th or 8th...
> 
> @MillionRainbows, I think you owe this recording a listen. Sergiu Celibidache, Müncher Philharmoniker Bruckner Symphony No.4 on EMI. Seriously, I think you might like it. Lines up with your previously stated thoughts on Bruckner interpretation, I think.


I've got his Bruckner 8, and I approve. In fact, this is what started me on my quest for "dull as ditchwater" Bruckner.


----------



## Josquin13

flamencosketches said:


> Jochum is famous for his Bruckner. What's a good recording of his? A really good one.


There are many. But one notable performance is Jochum's 1986 live Concertgebouw 5th, which is one of the most transcendent performances of the 5th Symphony ever recorded, & that's not only my view, but the view of many Brucknerites. If you're patient, it's a magnificent, moving experience. Afterwards, the applause from the Concertgebouw audience wouldn't let up, so Jochum repeated the 4th movement as an encore. Three months later he passed away at the age of 84. The recording was released by the Tahra label, both individually & in a superb Jochum Bruckner box set, but as you can see from the links below it's difficult to find these days at a reasonable price. Fortunately, the whole performance can be heard on You Tube for free (however, I find it more engrossing to listen to on the excellent sounding Japanese CDs):





https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Sym...uw+bruckner+ 5&qid=1563997004&s=music&sr=1-5 
https://www.amazon.com/%E3%83%96%E3...ner+ 5&qid=1563997004&s=music&sr=1-1-catcorr
https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%96%...+Jochum+tahra&qid=1563997866&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Jochum's 1964 studio Concertgebouw 5th is also very special, as is his Staatskapelle Dresden 5th, but not to quite the same degree, IMO: 
https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Sym...uw+bruckner+ 5&qid=1563997004&s=music&sr=1-1)
https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Sym...uw+bruckner+ 5&qid=1563997004&s=music&sr=1-2

Jochum was also very fine in Bruckner's 9th & 6th, for starters:

--Berlin Philharmonic 9th--This is one the great Bruckner 9ths on record, IMO, and it baffles me that anyone could find it a boring performance, in any respect:





--Staatskapelle Dresden 9th--This is also a great 9th, and a more detailed performance than Jochum's Berlin 9th, due to the Staatskapelle's more translucent orchestral sound, which allows you to hear Bruckner's entire score more fully: 



--Here too is a late live 9th from Munich, which was selected for release from the Jochum archives by the conductor's pianist daughter, Veronica Jochum: I especially enjoy it because the interpretation allows me to fondly remember a magnificent live 9th that I heard Jochum conduct in Philadelphia in 1985: 




--Bruckner 6--Staatskapelle Dresden (interestingly, Bruckner's 6th & 4th Symphonies appear to be where film composer Maurice Jarré 'borrowed' the musical themes for his score to "Lawrence of Arabia"):





Jochum was a deeply thoughtful conductor, & a man of prodigious intellect. For example, his brief essay on Beethoven "the man" that appeared on the back of the old Philips LP albums to his Concertgebouw Beethoven cycle offers more insight into Beethoven's life, character, and music than most Beethoven biographers perceive. I think that is typical of Jochum, and the depth of his thinking on music. Jochum was also an exceptionally fine human being by various accounts that I've heard. Like Bruckner, Jochum was a devout lifelong Roman Catholic: which I suppose may count for something in Bruckner's music, especially in the Catholic Masses & Te Deum. A composer friend of mine who knew Jochum at Tanglewood many years ago, said that he was "the nicest man I've ever met who was a conductor." I've heard others echo similar praise. I personally believe that the depth of any artist's humanity and wisdom is integrally connected to the range of their perceptions & insights in their creative endeavors & art (which doesn't mean that they don't also have flaws, or that art doesn't have a dark & light duality). Indeed, I've found that Jochum's best recordings tend to get better over time, with repeated listening. I don't think listeners always get Jochum's special insights the first or second time around (such as with his brilliant Tristan und Isolde and Parsifal), at least, that's been my experience.

Speaking of which, Carla Maria Giulini was also very special in Bruckner's 9th, with the Vienna Philharmonic on DG (as well as his DG Vienna 7th & 8th, too, which are slow and glacial):






While Celibidache was at his most transcendent in Bruckner in his live Japanese Sony recordings, especially of Symphonies 4, 7, & 8:






https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Sym...e+sony+bruckner&qid=1563957570&s=music&sr=1-1
https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Sym...e+sony+bruckner&qid=1563957570&s=music&sr=1-5

Otherwise, I tend to prefer Celi's not so slow DG recordings, where he's even faster than Giulini in certain movements: 



.

As for Herbert von Karajan, I think he was at his most special in Bruckner in his EMI Berlin Philharmonic 4th & 7th--especially the 4th, which was a Karajan specialty, and his final live DG Vienna 7th:

4th (I'm not sure whether this YT link is to Karajan's EMI 4th or not?): 



EMI 7th: 



DG 7th: 




The same is true for Karl Böhm and his 'classic' Decca 4th: 



 along with Böhm's 7ths on DG and the Andante label: https://www.amazon.com/Vienna-Philharmonic-1954-1978-Bruckner-Symphonies/dp/B00008V6VW. I also treasure Gunther Wand's Berlin Philharmonic 4th: 



 and his live RCA Victor 8th: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIooy_y0t1A; as well as Bernard Haitink's Vienna Philharmonic recordings for Philips, especially of the 8th, which was a Haitink specialty (his live 2005 Concertgebouw 8th on hybrid SACD is similarly excellent: 



 ). In addition, I'd consider Herbert Blomstedt to be at his best in his live Leipzig concerts of Bruckner's 6th, 7th, 8th, & 9th on Querstand label hybrid SACDs: 



, and on his earlier Dresden Staatskapelle Bruckner 4th & 7th for Denon: 



. I recall that some critics have considered the 7th to be a Blomstedt specialty, & I tend to agree, having heard him conduct it live around the time of the Dresden recording.

I also still avidly listen to Lovro von Matacic's first class Bruckner series with the Czech Philharmonic: 



, as well as occasionally to Wolfgang Sawallisch's excellent Bruckner series with the Bayerisches Staatsorchester on Orfeo: 



, Kurt Masur's Leipzig Gewandhaus Bruckner 1-9 cycle: 



, and very occasionally to the Bruckner Orchester Linz's 1-9 cycle on Camerata: 



.

Historically, I tend to focus on Wilhelm Fürtwangler, especially his Bruckner 8ths, and the fascinating Bruckner recordings by conductor Oswald Kabasta:














However, I've yet to explore Hans Knappertsbusch's Bruckner in any depth.

As for Jochum's tempo changes or his manipulating of tempos for dramatic & expressive purposes, that was his conducting idol Wilhelm Fürtwangler's way in Bruckner (& in music, in general), who many claim to be the greatest of all Bruckner conductors. Fürtwangler's approach derived from his studies in Schenkerian musical analysis, which goes back to the Romantic era. However, Jochum is more classically restrained than the highly expressionistic Fürtwangler, which is why I often prefer Jochum's conducting (at its best).

Nevertheless, I tend to see Bruckner as a partly misunderstood composer, due to the prevailing conception of him as a "Wagner-symphonist", which arguably began during the Nazi era, when Hitler & his high level Nazis appropriated Bruckner's music for their own purposes. Yes, Bruckner's music was influenced by Wagner, but his great idol was his fellow Austrian composer, Franz Schubert. If Bruckner were alive today, I suspect he might claim that Schubert's 9 Symphonies were the chief influence for most--though granted not all--of his 9 Symphonies. Indeed Bruckner's symphonies possess a more refined, lyrical, classical side than is sometimes acknowledged by conductors. I've noticed that the conductors who focus more intently on Bruckner's classical side, will often get panned by critics and listeners alike for being lesser, even boring Bruckner conductors--such as Kurt Masur, Bernard Haitink, and Herbert Blomstedt. I don't think that is always the case.

As an avid Bruckner fan, there's room in my collection for different views of his music: For conductors that see Bruckner as a "Wagner-symphonist", such as Fürtwangler, or at least Fürtwangler's 20th century Germanic conception of Wagner, but also for those that perceive the gentler, more lyrical side of Bruckner's music. I've only heard a handful of Bruckner conductors that are attentive to both influences, and at his best Jochum is one of those conductors, as he was a fine Schubertian. Oswald Kabasta is another. At the same time, I don't mean to deny Bruckner his own creative individuality, as that is definitely a big part of his music, too.

P.S. The following is the best remaster I've heard of Jochum's Berlin Bruckner 4th (in Ambient Surround Sound Imaging, or AMSI): https://www.amazon.de/Sinfonie-4-Ro...m+bruckner+4&qid=1564004429&s=gateway&sr=8-29. I mention it because it's especially important to hear the finest remasters available of this conductor's unusually expansive orchestral landscape in Bruckner's music--particularly when Jochum recorded with great orchestras, such as the Berlin Philharmonic and Staatskapelle Dresden. As it can be overwhelming. The DG Resonance remasters are also very good, and they were issued prior to DG's Original Image bit processing. If you listen to the Resonance remaster above of Jochum's Berlin 9th, I'll think you'll hear what I'm talking about: https://www.amazon.de/Sinfonie-9-Jo...m+bruckner+9&qid=1564004590&s=gateway&sr=8-18.

My 25 cents.


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## joen_cph

Agree with a lot of what you're saying ... alas, have only heard Jochum's Anton on DG and EMI, but I don't plan to get any further recordings.


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## flamencosketches

Bruckner's Masses are phenomenal, and must be some of the best such ever written since the end of the Baroque era. Wow. You can tell he was really a believer.

I just wanted to say thanks to whoever told me that Jochum's recordings of the Masses were supreme. I've only heard 1 and 2 thus far, but they are excellent performances from all forces.









Would recommend to anyone. Now I need to pick up the other Jochum CD with the Te Deum and some of the Motets.


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## starthrower

^^^
Yeah, those are great. I had them out of the library last year. Gotta pick up a set.


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