# Celibidache, the Grandmaster - favorite records?



## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

We all know and love/despise Sergiu Celibidache, the egomaniac from Romania whose many pupils inherited his invaluable teaching and _failed_ to be quite the name of their mentors, probably because of his scathing and uncompromising standardswhich resulted in some very critial remarks that probably shattered them. But that doesn't matter. His art of conducting was certainly unique and his sense of aesthetic and interpretive choices firm.

Aside from the various Celibidache haters/detractors, what are some of your favorite recordings from Celibidache?

For me:
1. Bruckner 5/SWR Symphony Orchestra
2. Dvorak's Cello Concerto/du Pre/Munich Philharmonic Orchestra
3. Beethoven 7/Munich Philharmonic Orchestra


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

For me, it's his Bruckner recordings with Munich Philharmonic:

- Bruckner 4
- Bruckner 6
- F-minor Mass


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

My favourite Celibidache recordings don't seem to exist any more....the only time they were ever in existence where when they were up on youtube by the member magischmeisjeorkest who received copyright complaints for making the unpublished recordings public.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> My favourite Celibidache recordings don't seem to exist any more....the only time they were ever in existence where when they were up on youtube by the member magischmeisjeorkest who received copyright complaints for making the unpublished recordings public.


Ooh! _Suspense!
_

Do tell us, J-man, what hooked you to the Grandmaster. What be your poison, _dog_?


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

I became aware of Celibidache through a recommendation here -- it may even have been you, LL. Can't recall. But it led me to Music Web's thorough appraisal of Bruckner's symphonies, both individually and in complete or partial cycles.

Celibidache's Munich recordings (Warner Classics) were repeatedly highlighted. I couldn't resist, and after listening to that set ended up acquiring the three other Warner sets as well -- "French and Russian," "Sacred Music and Opera" and "Symphonies," the latter of which includes the four Brahms, Beethoven 2-9, Schumann 2-4, Schubert 9, Haydn 92, 103 & 104 and Mozart 40.

I can't say I have a "favorite," as I'm still immersing myself in the recordings. I'll get back to you in a year or two. But more generally, the thing I love about Celibidache's Bruckner in particular is that it requires the listener (this listener, at least) to completely invest in the interpretation. There's no going halfway with Celibidache, it seems. You're either all in or all out.

I'm all in.

If pushed, although mine is hardly an "informed" opinion: Bruckner Nos. 3, 4 (almost a full 15 minutes longer than a conventional reading) and 7, all of the Brahms, and the Schubert 9 on these sets.

Need more time with the rest of it. Have barely touched the "Sacred & Opera" set yet and have not fully tackled the Beethoven. The French & Russian I'm less enthusiastic about so far, but again, it's early.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I enjoyed any recordings of his even though he hated those on principle.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

papsrus said:


> _I became aware of Celibidache through a recommendation here -- it may even have been you, LL. Can't recall. But it led me to Music Web's thorough appraisal of Bruckner's symphonies, both individually and in complete or partial cycles. _
> 
> Celibidache's Munich recordings (Warner Classics) were repeatedly highlighted. I couldn't resist, and after listening to that set ended up acquiring the three other Warner sets as well -- "French and Russian," "Sacred Music and Opera" and "Symphonies," the latter of which includes the four Brahms, Beethoven 2-9, Schumann 2-4, Schubert 9, Haydn 92, 103 & 104 and Mozart 40.
> 
> ...


_Oh, no. It wasn't me. I furthered my interest in B-man thanks to that link myself. We must find who gave us that link... and eat with him?


_*The length should not be a measure of assessment or tempi. Misleading and common mistake. Please refrain from attaching time values with the Grandmaster of Human Race.
*

True, I felt the same when listening to his Haydn and Beethoven.


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## fjf (Nov 4, 2014)

I don't measure the timing, but my perception of Celibidache is that he conducted slow. I like his way sometimes, but his Beethoven symphonies are sometimes painfully slow. This is a matter of personal preference, of course.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

The slowness intruiges me...some recent "too slow" recordings I've listened to I thought let the music breathe. Obviously not the best for every composer, but I think I may look into him.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

On top of my head, written down from an ecological farm campsite in Northern Zealand (plenty of sheep and hens around), some of them are

- Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherazade, DG or Orginals Label 
- DG´s Ravel and Debussy orchestral works box
- Ravel Daphnis & Chloe Suites 1+2, Originals Label
- Sibelius 5 /DG

Concerning Bruckner, note the difference between the earlier, often faster and tempi-wise more flexible DG recordings, versus many of the EMI ones,


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> *Concerning Bruckner, note the difference between the earlier, often faster and tempi-wise more flexible DG recordings, versus many of the EMI ones,*


Yes. Much like Bernstein and, to a lesser extent, Karajan, the tempi from his performances were considerably slower. I believe Bernie's final concert - Beethoven's Seventh Symphony - was considered by some to be dreadfully slow.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

All of his EMI Bruckner, and especially the Japanese SACDs of 4, 6, 7, and 8. The finale of the last one is stupendous, and available at youtube:






If this does not make you a fan, there is no hope.


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## padraic (Feb 26, 2015)

I've been listening to this almost every day since I purchased it.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Sonata said:


> The slowness intruiges me...some recent "too slow" recordings I've listened to I thought let the music breathe. Obviously not the best for every composer, but I think I may look into him.


Sometimes it works, sometimes not so (in my opinion). For EMI boxset, it works, for example, in B4 Finale, B6 Adagio, B8 Adagio. Does not work in B9 Scherzo, B7 Adagio and (partially) in B8 Finale (I know I know, many fans here )


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## padraic (Feb 26, 2015)

I'm with you on B9 Scherzo. Do wish that had more pep to it. The first movement is just so tremendous though.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

merlinus said:


> All of his EMI Bruckner, and especially the Japanese SACDs of 4, 6, 7, and 8. The finale of the last one is stupendous, and available at youtube:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't breed new naysayers. Anyone who doesn't like his Bruckner should explore his Haydn or his Beethoven or his Sacred Music; the Russian and French music set is also a gem.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

So I cannot express my heart-felt experience? Doh....

And except for most of symphony no. 5, I do not care for Celi's Beethoven recordings. Giulini also takes a slower approach, but does not lose the impetus and grandeur.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Lord Lance said:


> Ooh! _Suspense!
> _
> 
> Do tell us, J-man, what hooked you to the Grandmaster. What be your poison, _dog_?


I have enjoyed his Bruckner for quite a while but never decided to explore his other recordings until I heard this






For quite a while I believe his work with radio symphony orchestras meant that all rehearsals and concerts were recorded for possible broadcast purposes so there are a huge amount of archival recordings of Celibidache conducting. One thing I _really_ want to hear is a box set of rehearsals on nothing but the overture to Le Nozze Di Figaro. He was notorious for rehearsing things in _extreme_ detail for _many_ rehearsals. The rehearsals take up the majority of the box set (I think it's 7 CDs?) with the complete performance of the overture at the end. For comparison another rehearsal and performance of the same rehearsal from a different conductor is also included, but this time the rehearsal is something like 6 minutes long and the performance 4 minutes. :lol:

I suppose this box is only for those hardcore Celibidache fanatics. 

EDIT: My mistake, it's 10 CDs labouring over the one overture!


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Here is a rather extended rehearsal session here with the main man.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I've been picking up Celibidache discs for years, and some while back added the four EMI boxes to my collection. I'm quite satisfied with all of this music.

Celibidache remains an acquired taste; his interpretations are certainly unique. Slow, true, in many cases, but fascinating nonetheless.

What I find most intriguing as I listen to any Celibidache reading is that I gain a completely new appreciation for every note of the composition. The conductor has a way of allowing each and every note to be heard and even to be contemplated. To twist a metaphor from sound to sight, I don't so much _see_ "the forest" as I do "the trees" (or even each and every leaf!) when I experience a Celibidache reading. Yet, it remains a unique perspective.

Celibidache is perhaps the most singularly eccentric conductor with whom I am familiar. And I mean that in a good way. All conductors, I suspect, have their eccentric moments, their eccentric interpretations. (Just this evening I listened to Pierre Boulez's recording of the Beethoven Fifth!), but with no other conductor but Celibidache do I expect eccentricity each time I take up one of his recordings.

Nonetheless, though these readings prove weird at times and strange too often, I enjoy them immensely and wouldn't want to be without my Celibidache recordings. I especially value that EMI chose to collect its own Celibidache discography into a full collection. Quite a valuable set for anyone interested in exploring the outward edges of classical music, even if the material under examination is all rather familiar, standard repertoire.

I can't really narrow down to a "favorite" Celibidache disc; each one possesses its own merits (and, in cases, shortcomings), but I do especially prefer Celibidache's reading of the Debussy _La Mer _to most others I've heard. Then again, I prefer a leisurely day at the beach. Celibidache's reading clocks in at a few seconds over 33 minutes. Looking at a couple other versions I have on hand shows what leisurely means: Sir Colin Davis and the Boston Symphony on PHILIPS, Gerard Schwarz and the Cleveland on PolyGram, and Pierre Boulez on DG with the Cleveland Orchestra all come in just over 23 minutes.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Are you considering getting more EMI Celibidache? I would love to hear what you think of the rest of the releases.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Also he is a Buddhist like I am. Awesome giant.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Are you considering getting more EMI Celibidache? I would love to hear what you think of the rest of the releases.


The four EMI box sets contain a total of 48 discs. Quite a bit of Celibidache.

Besides the "Symphonies", "French & Russian Music", "Anton Bruckner", and "Sacred Music & Opera", there is available a 15 disc set titled "Sergiu Celibidache conducts", but it contains overlap from the other four boxes. I suppose it is the one to get if you want only one 15 disc collection to get a taste of this conductor, but it may actually be more economical to pick up the four boxes listed above.

You can get a good look at the individual contents of these boxes here: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/llf/-/Sergiu+Celibidache+Edition/1

There is also, apparently, a "Celibidache Munchner Philharmoniker Complete EMI Edition" which hosts 33 discs. Something is obviously missing from that set that shows up in the four EMI box sets.









You'll find info on that disc here: https://www.trustysound.com/products/1282-celibidache-munchner-philharmoniker-complete-emi-edition

Rob Cowen of GRAMOPHONE has an interesting article about the Celibidache EMI discs at http://www.gramophone.co.uk/editori...dache-edition-by-rob-cowan-gramophone-January .

More intriguing info about the "Complete EMI Edition" is found at this forum: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=10825.0

Enjoy.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

SONNET CLV said:


> The four EMI box sets contain a total of 48 discs. Quite a bit of Celibidache.
> 
> Besides the "Symphonies", "French & Russian Music", "Anton Bruckner", and "Sacred Music & Opera", there is available a 15 disc set titled "Sergiu Celibidache conducts", but it contains overlap from the other four boxes. I suppose it is the one to get if you want only one 15 disc collection to get a taste of this conductor, but it may actually be more economical to pick up the four boxes listed above.
> 
> ...


What about the EMI Mozart box which has a little bit of Adrian Boult?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

DG incomplete cycle of his Bruckner is masterful too.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

There is more to be found, padawans:


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

padraic said:


> I've been listening to this almost every day since I purchased it.


This is my thread!!!!

Thanks for being on this forum, may be not now, but one day you were here.

and greeting to everyone loving rehearsals, especially Celi's. Master! True master! with brain, not only with a heart! :angel:


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## Mahlerite555 (Aug 27, 2016)

Most of his recordings are terrible, with the only exception of Bruckner, for which he is the gold standard.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Mahlerite555 said:


> Most of his recordings are terrible, with the only exception of Bruckner, for which he is the gold standard.


do you mean Schubert , Strauss, Bach, Brahms are terrible?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I listen to Celibidache, when I have the time. I generally enjoy the interpretations, though many prove bizarre (by standard measure). Still, I find that this conductor gets me listening deep into the orchestration. It seems he savors every note and allows his audience to do so, too. I've picked up a number of the EMI box collections which add immensely to my Celibidache collection. Of course his Bruckner is sublime. But then, Bruckner is always sublime. Still, Celibidache allows the sublimity to last longer than any other conductors with which I am familiar, so I can appreciate that. Again, I listen to Celibidache when I have the time.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

SONNET CLV said:


> I listen to Celibidache, when I have the time. I generally enjoy the interpretations, though many prove bizarre (by standard measure). Still, I find that this conductor gets me listening deep into the orchestration. It seems he savors every note and allows his audience to do so, too. I've picked up a number of the EMI box collections which add immensely to my Celibidache collection. Of course his Bruckner is sublime. But then, Bruckner is always sublime. Still, Celibidache allows the sublimity to last longer than any other conductors with which I am familiar, so I can appreciate that. Again, I listen to Celibidache when I have the time.
> 
> View attachment 88471


great EMI collection!

Recently I have time only for listening to Celibidache


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Some interesting opinions on Celi. I can't say I'm in the love or hate camps as I take each performance on its own merits. I can only discuss the recordings i have heard but I'll admit I should listen to more. Of his Beethoven recordings I am most critical and can only tolerate #6. I find his choice of extremely slow tempo for the other symphonies detracts hugely from the performance and it certainly doesn't work for #3 (very boring), #4 and #7. There's also an orchestral lustre that I don't really care for across many performances. I find his languid accounts less off-putting in Bruckner and don't mind his EMI Bruckner set but it's not an easy listen and can get a little boring but not in #4 and #6 for me, where I think his readings are particularly effective. I don't class Celi as a master but he was certainly unique and not afraid to take risks. I like that in a conductor.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Merl said:


> he was certainly unique and not afraid to take risks. I like that in a conductor.


that's certainly true .


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

His late Munich recordings are the special ones. I love most of the Bruckners from this series - indeed he taught me to really love Bruckner. Before I only enjoyed Bruckner occasionally but after hearing Celibidache I fell totally in love - and not just with his performances. His Schumann is very good too and I enjoy his Brahms. His Munich Beethovens are very good and I don't bridle at their slowish speeds but they are just a little smooth for me. His Munich Scheherazade is wonderful and I enjoy his Bartok Concerto for Orchestra. My favourite Nutcracker Suite is his and his Tchaikovsky 4 and 5 are great.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

yes, definitely later in his life is when he fully implemented his philosophy into music and this idea of every end contains the beginning in a structure of a composition. And he really makes one see trees in a forest as someone said , not just a forest  His love for details is what it should be, because music consists of details, otherwise everyone, each and every virtuoso would have become "great". There are very few capable of experiencing living through music each and every time, see it as if it was something new every time, have this power of recreation every time one performs - that is what makes performance be extra-ordinary. It's not about emotions, not just about emotions, it's about seeing music every time with new eyes or we can put it in this way - listening to music with totally open ears , forget previous performance every time to be opened for a new one as if there were no hundreds of previous performances before that!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I did have a set of Brahms symphonies conducted by Celi but they were so slow I soon tired of them.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

helenora said:


> .......it's about seeing music every time with new eyes or we can put it in this way - listening to music with totally open ears , forget previous performance every time to be opened for a new one as if there were no hundreds of previous performances before that!


True, but you cant help making comparisons sometimes. Saying that I don't have an agenda or simmering dislike for any conductors that would make me not give their accounts a try. I have ones I like a lot but they are just as capable of producing a turkey of a reading as others are. For example, I'm not a big fan of many Bernstein recordings but I still have a fair few on disc and rate his Mahler very highly.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Merl said:


> True, but you cant help making comparisons sometimes. Saying that I don't have an agenda or simmering dislike for any conductors that would make me not give their accounts a try. I have ones I like a lot but they are just as capable of producing a turkey of a reading as others are. For example, I'm not a big fan of many Bernstein recordings but I still have a fair few on disc and rate his Mahler very highly.


right, I understand it quite well...comparisons - it's all about how mind works- difficult to escape from it.
Talking about Celi as a conductor, he became very aware of such things as performing just relying on personal professionalism and professionalism of his orchestra would never lead to an exceptional performance, to a great one yes, but not to a performance which is "alive" , therefore it's a great accomplishment to be able to perform a piece as if one sees it for the first time....from here his his love for details comes, because for him they cease to be "details" they encompass the very essence of this piece of music which he and his orchestra conduct right now, from here comes his famous "slow tempi" - but they aren't even slow - it's just that these tempi they become demanding from a listener as well to invest his/her own being into listening, discovering this music together with performers which automatically leads to new perception of a piece and here we are - one should forget about previous performances to make a new one really new.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

I need to explore further Celibidache's recordings, but I like a lot his Bach's Mass in b minor; it's stunning.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Would recommend sampling some of the DG recordings too, less widespread than the EMIs, it seems. 

There are other live recordings with good sound quality also, such as those on the Originals CD label (usually red covers with a photo) and the Artists CD label (usually yellow covers with a photo).


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I've been a fan of Celibidache's Bruckner for a long time but in the past I passed from getting his Bruckner box because I was waiting for a complete Munich box to show up.

Nowadays, we have the Munich box. Costs 63€ but has no remasterings and can look as ugly inside as the 2010s CD sleeves were. What's worse, I've grown cold for his symphony recordings (as I do my challenges) and I don't really think I would listen a lot of his material outside Bruckner. Even if it kills me to leave the Mozart Requiem behind. 

Should I really buy the Bruckner Box for those 22€ and give up on the rest of performances?


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Two Celi recordings i love














Even so, i find his Bruckner recordings with Munich Philharmonic( EMI/ Warner)rather dull. Maybe i come to like them later, yet at the moment i shun them.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

His Dvorak cello concerto with Du Pre is great, though it sounds dated a little. Among his Bruckner symphony recordings, I find his 5th and 6th with MPO on EMI are among my favorites. His 7-9 are too dragging for me even though they are subtle readings.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

You often need to give him his own "listening world", putting aside all memories of how others have done a piece. I find that quite easy because so many of his Munich recordings pull you in pretty quickly once you have gotten over any initial shock. And once you are in there is some very powerful music making.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

I have the Bruckner box, the Symphonies box, the Opera/Choral box - all EMI only. Plus the 13-disc DVD set with some older stuff in it. I'm not so taken with the Beethoven, but the Bruckner is wonderful, the Brahms is very good (although I'd like the repeats please), the Mozart and Haydn are terrific and not that slow except by period instrument standards. Nor is the Schubert 9. The Schumann is wonderful - those braying horns in the 'Rhenisch' especially. The opera box is fine too, less distinctive than the Bruckner.
That film of him rehearsing Bruckner 7 with the BPO - that really is fascinating to watch.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I have the complete Munich recordings box and love it.
And his Brahms on DG.
Always have liked Celi's adventurous readings.


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## Subutai (Feb 28, 2021)

Granate said:


> Should I really buy the Bruckner Box for those 22€ and give up on the rest of performances?


Yes! I have a bunch of Bruckner cycles as well as Mahler (!). I took a gamble on Celibidache, only because people either disliked him, or LOVED him. I'm not in love just yet but Celibidache's Bruckner cycle on EMI seriously made me understand Anton's music in a whole new light. When I listened it wasn't a question of 'is it slow' but appreciating every single cell within Bruckner's compositions.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I've found the pirate performance of No.3 on Youtube, but has anyone been able to listen to that Bruckner No.9 from 1981? Scherzo takes more than a minute less than the EMI performance in 1995.


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

His Munich Bruckner and Brahms grabbed my attention very quickly and come immediately to mind. As does his Faure Requiem, and Prokofiev Symphonies Nos. 1 ‘Classical’ and 5. 

I also enjoy his Schumann and Tchaikovsky but would have to revisit before ranking them. 

I find his approach largely successful and appealing though it doesn’t always work with some composers. His Beethoven for example I find can be hit and miss for my tastes.

I think part of the appeal of Celibidache is the relationship and sound he had and developed working with the Munich Philharmonic. They worked very well together artistically and left some fantastic results.


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