# Don Gio vs. Figaro



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Basically - 

A) Which do you like better? 

B) Which do you think ought to be regarded as "greater?" 

C) Which do you think is more popular? 

D) Which do you think is generally regarded as "greater?"


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I love this question and my answer to all four is Don Giovanni. Perhaps Figaro is more popular, but Don Giovanni is very popular too.

N.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Figaro represents one of the greatest leap-forwards ever in opera. It is also more popular. It also has a near perfect libretto. The Don is less well organised but the music and the emotions are on another level. Both are great. I always think the greatest is the one I'm listening too at that moment. Same applies to Cosi.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

No contest: Figaro, due to the humor content, is likely the more popular but Don Giovanni is, far and away, the greater and finer work of the two, IMO.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

nina foresti said:


> Don Giovanni is, far and away, the greater and finer work of the two, IMO.


For what reason, and by what measure?


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

According to Operabase, Figaro was performed worldwide more often than Don Giovanni in 7 of the last 10 years. Actually what surprised me was that Die Zauberflote consistently beat both of them. Of course that doesn't definitively determine which opera is liked more by opera fans. 

I used to feel that Figaro was my favorite opera, but recently Don Giovanni has risen such that I view them roughly equally. I really don't know which is regarded as greater, but Brahms did say of Figaro, "It is totally beyond me how anyone could create anything so perfect; nothing like it was ever done again, not even by Beethoven.”


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

To choose one as greater one would have to find fault with the other. Objectively, that would be pretty hard to do, at least with respect to the music, which is all (or mostly) prime Mozart.

Personally, I find _Figaro_ a bit long for its sitcom plot, which may have to do with an intolerance of recitative on recordings or a general ho-hum response to "upstairs/downstairs" sorts of social intrigue (I could never get into those BBC things), but I found it quite an enjoyable evening when I could watch the actors in the theater. _Don Giovanni_ is more interesting to me on paper because of its dark side, and I like the spooky music for the commendatore, but the story of a happy rapist who goes to hell is off-putting (I'm with Beethoven), and the "good" women and their insipid boyfriends either annoy me or bore me. Again, I might enjoy it more in the theater.

But don't mind me. I'm just carping pointlessly about two of the greatest operas - musically, anyhow - in the repertoire. I'll be interested to see why anyone thinks one is "greater" than the other.


----------



## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I like DG better, but I believe Nozze is more popular. Perhaps I prefer DG because its highlights are low voiced baritones and basses thundering at each other, and I'm just a sucker for that kind of thing. I think there's also some very interesting things like the separate simultaneous dances at the end of Act 1, just a virtuosic piece of composition, and I can't think of anything nearly so interesting in Nozze. 

I think the peaks for DG hit me harder than the peaks for Nozze--I'd take the Masker's trio and both trios with Don G, Leporello and the Commendatore over any moments in Nozze by a gigantic margin. I'm also a sucker for Donna Anna's arias--they are martial and heroic in a way that is striking and unique. I do think there's more weak material in DG than there is in Nozze though--I yawn through all of Masetto's and Don Ottavio's arias, whereas I only really find the usually skipped Marcellina and Basilio arias similarly dull.

I haven't timed it but it does feel like there's more secco recitative in Nozze. Or perhaps DG breaks it up better. At any rate, I find myself looking at my watch impatiently when I hear the dreaded harpsichord more when listening to a full Nozze over a full DG.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> ...I find myself looking at my watch impatiently when I hear the dreaded harpsichord...


:lol: The plaint of recitativophobes everywhere.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Figaro has long been on my list of favourite operas, Don Giovanni has never been on that list despite a number of attempts. I would go so far as to say that I prefer Cosi to Giovanni.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

science said:


> Basically -
> 
> A) Which do you like better?
> 
> ...


None of the above. Ok, so my response is worthless, but I feel better having gotten it out.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Easy for me. I fell asleep the first time I saw Figaro. It is a bit boring for me, and I even once appeared in a full concert version as Figaro as well as performing scenes in college!

Giovanni is one of my favorite operas alongside Tristan und Isolde and Tosca. Much more flavor and drama IMO.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> None of the above. Ok, so my response is worthless, but I feel better having gotten it out.


That's fine. Just be aware that both operas are perfect and the greatest achievements of any kind in human history, and that if you fail to realize this you will be cursed to sail the oceans, unable to die, until the schizophrenic daughter of a Norwegian sea captain with a voice like Gottlob Frick jilts her whiny boyfriend, claims you are the only man for her, and jumps off a cliff into the briny deep. You'll have the choice of jumping after her or listening to several hours of recitativo secco.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> You'll have the choice of jumping after her or listening to several hours of recitativo secco.


If those are my choices, I'll jump thanks!


----------



## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Yeah, who's worried 'bout a harpsichord entrance, or two (or more) … if they lead to some of the sublime inspirations in operatic history - eh? Geez, mustn't we be PATIENT, with the structures/strictures of music the time?


----------



## Byron (Mar 11, 2017)

Not to take anything away from Figaro, which is a true delight, but my preference is definitely for Don Giovanni. For me it is one of the most fascinating works in the entire operatic repetoire, both musically and dramatically. It defies classification, and draws equally on the traditions of _opera buffa _ and _opera seria _, so that it can be viewed as either comedy or tragedy and take on new meaning depending on the context and perspective. The story itself is built both from elements of medieval morality plays and puppet show farces, and the Don is a kind of enigma. His actions are amoral, and he he has the power to impose his will upon others. The other characters unthinkingly endorse moral verdicts, yet they are ultimately powerless to stop him, and the final sextet that supposedly vindicates them sounds remarkably feeble, raising questions about our accepting the invitation to join the conventional moral consensus. Mozart clearly does not offer the Don as a moral visionary, he is after all a bully and a rapist. Yet does take advantage of the shallowness and inadequacy of blind tradition, making him a quintessential Übermensch, forcing a revaluation of values, as Nietzsche put it.


----------



## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

howling - Good, specific points … and BTW, I like the photo of Charles Mingus, as your "avatar". Well, isn't Nozze supposed to be more-SUBTLE, than the overt, eventual condemnation of DM … in the overall conceptions of WM, as they apply to certain operas? … Do agree, though, that there are parts of BOTH operas that can be "sloughed-off", as almost "fillers", in certain ways. Maybe a total, true CONCISENESS is not we always look-for, in some of those grand, old inspirations of past days.


----------



## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Byron - Excellent points, IMO!! … and maybe the ambiguity of tragic/comedic elements is part of the dichotomy that gives DM much of it's dramatic suspension, so to speak, until the final sextet. Maybe the final sextet, moreover, was simply a SUMMATION that Mozart wanted … even tho it might seem, to us and modern times … an incomplete answer to moral questions.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> That's fine. Just be aware that both operas are perfect and the greatest achievements of any kind in human history, and that if you fail to realize this you will be cursed to sail the oceans, unable to die, until the schizophrenic daughter of a Norwegian sea captain with a voice like Gottlob Frick jilts her whiny boyfriend, claims you are the only man for her, and jumps off a cliff into the briny deep. You'll have the choice of jumping after her or listening to several hours of recitativo secco.


I like it! Wagner to the death! What better way to go out than with Wagner.


----------



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Fritz Kobus said:


> None of the above. Ok, so my response is worthless, but I feel better having gotten it out.


I'm with you Fritz. I've made some serious attempts to enjoy these operas. even learning the entire role of Don G & performing pieces of it, & I've found that I'm completely incapable of enjoying them. I'm pretty sure its a flaw in my character because these are acknowledged masterpieces. Part of my dislike is definitely all the recitative. I'm not sure which I hate more, the countertenor voice or recit lol


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> For what reason, and by what measure?


Figaro to me is a fun romp. DG has deeper tones and cannot just be considered a comedy -- yet it has many comedic moments.
The characters are much more interesting and complicated.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Byron said:


> *Don Giovanni...can be viewed as either comedy or tragedy *and take on new meaning depending on the context and perspective... *The Don is a kind of enigma.* His actions are amoral, and he he has the power to impose his will upon others. The other characters unthinkingly endorse moral verdicts, yet they are ultimately powerless to stop him, and the final sextet that supposedly vindicates them sounds remarkably feeble, raising questions about our accepting the invitation to join *the conventional moral consensus*. Mozart clearly does not offer the Don as a moral visionary, he is after all a bully and a rapist. Yet does take advantage of the shallowness and inadequacy of blind tradition, making him *a quintessential Übermensch, forcing a revaluation of values, as Nietzsche put it.*


Save us from "quintessential Uebermensches" and their forced revaluations of values. Poor Nietzsche was compensating. Thus spake blah blah blah...

When people talk about this opera as you have I scratch my head. The "enigma" of Don Giovanni is, in my view, a clever - OK, a brilliant - artistic con job. Don Giovanni is not an enigma. He's an outright sociopath devoid of empathy, an unambiguous predator, a parasite on the vulnerabilities of others. There's nothing tragic about his end; his damnation is a _deus ex machina_ that kept the censors at bay, but unlike the death of a tragic hero it wasn't fated and it has no deep meaning. "Tragedy" describes the downfall of men brought about by flaws of character; it doesn't apply to men who have no character.

Is the moralizing finale really feeble? "This is the end which befalls evildoers, and in this life scoundrels always receive their just deserts!" Everyone wants to believe that justice is done in the end, but no one does. It's what victims say to each other to feel less guilty about having been taken advantage of. But it does affirm values that we all believe need affirming. Does anything in this story suggest, or prompt, a revaluation of those values? It seems to me that traditional values are unambiguously upheld. The only ambiguity I see is in the moral position of the librettist and composer, who do their utmost to make depravity entertaining. We're asked to take a few hours out of our normally responsible, upright lives to indulge our prurient interests and our fascination with power; it's all made palatable (if it is) by a charismatic baritone, a funny buffo basso, beautiful costumes, and great music; and we're sent back to our homes, spouses and jobs with an apparent assurance that the "conventional moral consensus" is the right one. Which, in general, it is.

_Don Giovanni_ masterfully mixes dark and light humor - having a statue show up at dinner on behalf of the Devil is actually pretty funny - and it presents, like all of Mozart's operas, a sharp picture of human vices and foibles. But I don't see it posing serious philosophical questions, challenging common moral standards, or rising - from any perspective - to the level of tragedy. I don't view this opera as "tragicomedy," but as black comedy.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I think they are both great operas, but the music seems a little more impressive to me in Figaro.


----------



## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I'm not a fan of comedy, so Figaro doesn't really appeal to me. Sure, it has gorgeous bits, but too many damn side characters get arias and they're just filler. Also, Rosina should kick Almaviva in the balls.

Don G on the other hand? I'm never bored for a moment. It has just the right blend or drama and humor, and the ending is on another level even for Mozart.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sieglinde said:


> I'm not a fan of comedy, so Figaro doesn't really appeal to me. Sure, it has gorgeous bits, but too many damn side characters get arias and they're just filler. Also, Rosina should kick Almaviva in the balls.
> 
> Don G on the other hand? I'm never bored for a moment. It has just the right blend or drama and humor, and the ending is on another level even for Mozart.


In the era of "me too," the Countess's forgiveness, touching as the musical moment is, looks too much like a celebration of misogynist patriarchy. And I'm sure her priest tells her that it's her sacred duty, even though she knows her lord and master will jolly well chase the next skirt just because he's "entitled" to it. What happened to the spunky spitfire from Rossini's _Barber?_


----------



## Poppin' Fresh (Oct 24, 2009)

Byron said:


> Not to take anything away from Figaro, which is a true delight, but my preference is definitely for Don Giovanni. For me it is one of the most fascinating works in the entire operatic repetoire, both musically and dramatically. It defies classification, and draws equally on the traditions of _opera buffa _ and _opera seria _, so that it can be viewed as either comedy or tragedy and take on new meaning depending on the context and perspective. The story itself is built both from elements of medieval morality plays and puppet show farces, and the Don is a kind of enigma. His actions are amoral, and he he has the power to impose his will upon others. The other characters unthinkingly endorse moral verdicts, yet they are ultimately powerless to stop him, and the final sextet that supposedly vindicates them sounds remarkably feeble, raising questions about our accepting the invitation to join the conventional moral consensus. Mozart clearly does not offer the Don as a moral visionary, he is after all a bully and a rapist. Yet does take advantage of the shallowness and inadequacy of blind tradition, making him a quintessential Übermensch, forcing a revaluation of values, as Nietzsche put it.


I think you're on to something about it being difficult to pin down the character of Don Giovanni, and this is a a prime source of what makes it so damn intriguing. Bernard Williams wrote an interesting essay, "Don Giovanni as an idea", which makes the case that the character is difficult to pin down because he is more an idea than a person. To quote Williams:

"the opera is in various ways problematical, and because it raises in a challenging way the question of what the figure of Giovanni means...He is in a deep way the life of the opera, yet the peculiarity is that he is not really as grand as that implies….He expresses more than he is...It is noticable that he has no self reflective aria - he never sings about himself, as Mozart's other central characters do. We have no sense of what he is like when he is by himself. He is presented always in action - the action, notriously, of a seducer."

Williams goes on to reflect on Kierkegaard's famous essay on the opera, and concludes that Giovanni "is the spirit of sensuous desire." If we look at the Don as an idea, we can see the character and the opera in a different light. Don Giovanni does not have an aria to express himself because there is no self to express. Nor can an idea repent, that would only extinguish itself. When the Commendatore drags Don Giovanni to hell, he doesn't send a man but instead the very notion of sexual desire and sexual freedom. The Commendatore himself can also be seen as an idea: the idea of mainstream social values that opposes sexual license. It is a kind of battle between lust and social morality, and in the end social morality checks lust in order to maintain the social constructs of relationships and marriage.

As this spirit of sexual desire, Giovanni exists as much in the hearts of the female characters even when he is not present on stage. When Zerlina asks Masetto to physically abuse her, it is seemingly a coy request for punishment, but it is actually an invocation of the spirit of Don Giovanni. Don Ottavio may sing to his beloved that she is a treasure, but he wouldn't get anywhere with Donna Anna if she hadn't previously been turned on by the Don's passion.


----------



## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

The Conte said:


> I love this question and my answer to all four is Don Giovanni. Perhaps Figaro is more popular, but Don Giovanni is very popular too.
> 
> N.


Agree 100000% :tiphat:


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Poppin' Fresh said:


> I think you're on to something about it being difficult to pin down the character of Don Giovanni, and this is a a prime source of what makes it so damn intriguing. Bernard Williams wrote an interesting essay, "Don Giovanni as an idea", which makes the case that the character is difficult to pin down because he is more an idea than a person. To quote Williams:
> 
> "the opera is in various ways problematical, and because it raises in a challenging way the question of what the figure of Giovanni means...He is in a deep way the life of the opera, yet the peculiarity is that he is not really as grand as that implies….He expresses more than he is...It is noticable that he has no self reflective aria - he never sings about himself, as Mozart's other central characters do. We have no sense of what he is like when he is by himself. He is presented always in action - the action, notriously, of a seducer."
> 
> ...


This is an intriguing view. If we take these characters not so much as people but as symbols, view Don Giovanni as the simple, exuberant embodiment of sexual pleasure, see his victims as representing the rigid "thou shalt not" of social convention, and leave the actual ugliness and harm of rape and misogyny out of consideration, the forces opposed to the Don can be seen as drearily life-killing and repressive. In this view, we're given an alternative, not between evil and good, but between freedom and inhibition - and freedom looks like a lot more fun.

If this is what Mozart and Da Ponte were driving at - and given Da Ponte's own "free" lifestyle I suspect it was - it explains why I have never been able to give a fig about any of the condemners and complainers - why, in fact, I find them generally mundane, banal, and tiresome, a feeling relieved only partially by the fact that Mozart's music for them is predictably superb. I am rather fond of the stone guest, however, especially if he sounds like Gottlob Frick.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

And who, in their heart, doesn't secretly admire the Don for his lechery and, in the end, his courage?


----------



## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

KenOC said:


> And who, in their heart, doesn't secretly admire the Don for his lechery and, in the end, his courage?


Despite his lechery he is the type of man you secretly want männlich!

Maybe not you Ken sorry but us frau...


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> Figaro to me is a fun romp. DG has deeper tones and cannot just be considered a comedy -- yet it has many comedic moments.
> The characters are much more interesting and complicated.


Figaro us fun but looking at it just as a fun romp misses the point. It is a satire on the nobility - the pkay was on the banned list - and even though da Ponte toned it down ut was still pretty subsersive by the standards of the time. It is also an opera about human relationships, something that Mozart does possibly better than anyone else. There are countless subtleties in the score. Yes, a comedy - but far more than a fun romp. One problem is over the years that Mozart has been prettied up do the rather dangerous side is lost. Listening to Jacob's recording helps us realise just how subversive it was.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> And who, in their heart, doesn't secretly admire the Don for his lechery and, in the end, his courage?


The Don is actually the stationary character - a psychopathic womaniser who doesn't change. The other characters revolve and change around him. I'm sure daPonte admired him as he was the same sort of character as he was - a lecher. It is said that even Casanova was in on helping in the libretto to make it authentic . I highly dangerous character, especially in those days when nobility had certain rights that the don never ceases to use


----------



## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Figaro represents one of the greatest leap-forwards ever in opera. It is also more popular. It also has a near perfect libretto. The Don is less well organised but the music and the emotions are on another level. Both are great. I always think the greatest is the one I'm listening too at that moment. Same applies to Cosi.


Cosi is my least favorite Mozart opera. I can't for the life of me figure out why, but I just don't have any type of response to it. It really bothers me. Really, really, really bothers me. I keep trying. I've been trying for over 20 years and I don't get any where.

Figaro and Don Giovanni are my two favorite operas, but I would say I prefer Figaro. To me, it is perfect - it is one brilliant musical idea after another (not that Giovanni isn't) but opera transitioned from a mild interest to a full blown passion through Figaro. I've listened to it hundreds of times more than any other opera, and I still hear new things.

I couldn't be without either.


----------



## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

Cosi is where what’s parody and what’s serious is blurred completely. It is the music of a complete nervous breakdown. (Per pieta). Check out Gruberova singing it conducted by Harnoncourt on YouTube.


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I would tip my hat in favor of Don Giovanni. I like both operas a great deal, but theres just a bit of bite to Don that Mozart's other operas do not have, so it stands out for me


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Poppin' Fresh said:


> "the opera is in various ways problematical, and because it raises in a challenging way the question of what the figure of Giovanni means...He is in a deep way the life of the opera, yet the peculiarity is that he is not really as grand as that implies….He expresses more than he is...It is noticable that he has no self reflective aria - he never sings about himself, as Mozart's other central characters do. We have no sense of what he is like when he is by himself. He is presented always in action - the action, notriously, of a seducer."


The Don is a force of nature who drives the action, but is not a character who is interesting by baring his conflicted soul or anything like that.
I attended a concert performance where there was no staging and the acting was minimal. Without the theatricality usually required, the singer cast as Don Giovanni betrayed a hint of frustration - the rest of the cast had these wonderful arias that illuminated the characters they played and this drew enormous applause. The Don's music doesn't have quite the same effect, he has no arias, impressive though he was in the ensembles, and the applause for him wasn't quite the same. (It was Kwiecien, under Levine and the Boston Symphony.)


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

These may be the two greatest operas ever written. I have heard parts called dull, such as Don Ottavio's first aria "Dalla Sua Pace", but I don't agree. If a lesser composer had written that, it would be seen as remarkable. There is not a superfluous note in either opera. The music is divine perfection in both. The plot in "Figaro" wears me out a bit more, both have great comic scenes.

This is one of those choices between two great works where I hate that one has to be called the lesser, but I prefer "Don Giovanni". It's just so daring. The count in "Figaro" wants to be Don Giovanni but has less conviction about his entitlement and a bit of a conscience. He's a beta male by comparison. "Don Giovanni" goes further.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Open Book said:


> The Don is a force of nature who drives the action, but is not a character who is interesting by baring his conflicted soul or anything like that...


Quite so. I saw a performance where the Don was suffering from conflict or Freudian guilt or some damn thing. It was disgusting. Our Don is simply bad to the bone and proud of it! And, as we see, he fears nothing.

Beethoven's view: "_Die Zauberflote_ will always remain Mozart's greatest work, for in it he for the first time showed himself to be a German musician. _Don Juan_ still has the complete Italian cut; besides our sacred art ought never permit itself to be degraded to the level of a foil for so scandalous a subject."


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Quite so. I saw a performance where the Don was suffering from conflict or Freudian guilt or some damn thing. It was disgusting. Our Don is simply bad to the bone and proud of it! And, as we see, he fears nothing.
> 
> Beethoven's view: "_Die Zauberflote_ will always remain Mozart's greatest work, for in it he for the first time showed himself to be a German musician. _Don Juan_ still has the complete Italian cut; besides our sacred art ought never permit itself to be degraded to the level of a foil for so scandalous a subject."


Freudian guilt? Sounds like the showrunner was desperate to try an original approach.

The Beethoven quote sounds like Beethoven. Great composers have been known to be wrong about other composers, particularly their contemporaries.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

_Don Giovanni_ must be one of the the least characterologically profound "greatest operas ever written." I've never been able to see anything interesting in most of the characters; Mozart's inspired melodies seem to me wasted on a mundane bunch of people whose sole distinction lies in their being victims who are good at raising Cain about it. Music - especially great music, which _Don Giovanni_ indisputably is - has magical powers; it makes us feel that we're looking at something more substantial and significant than we really are. The Don himself is nothing but an embodiment of libido and bravado, but except for Leporello, who's at least amusing, the bodies around him are even less than he is: empty skirts who have no biographies, don't do or think anything of interest onstage or off, and wouldn't be worth a moment's notice if they didn't have him to complain about. I'd say that _Figaro_ and _Cosi_ both contain more interesting and/or sympathetic characters than this opera.

I'd love to hear why I'm wrong about this, Mozarteans. :tiphat:


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> _Don Giovanni_ must be one of the the least characterologically profound "greatest operas ever written."... I'd love to hear why I'm wrong about this, Mozarteans. :tiphat:


I think you're right. But the interest in this opera, aside from its music, is our response to the character of the Don himself. The Don's character is plain enough, but what do we really think of it? Is our 21st century morality sufficient to deal with such a creature?​


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> I think you're right. But the interest in this opera, aside from its music, is our response to the character of the Don himself. The Don's character is plain enough, but what do we really think of it? Is our 21st century morality sufficient to deal with such a creature?​


I don't really know what to say about the Don. He certainly isn't interesting or sympathetic. Maybe in the age of Trump (God, can there be such a thing?) sexual bravado doesn't look very compelling or titillating, as it may have when social mores were stricter. I imagine audiences used to thrill at his daring and his damnation, and maybe younger people (and adolescents in adult bodies) still think it's all exciting, but at my age I just feel rather ho-hum about it. I just watched a good film of the opera and kept thinking "this music is too good; this story is stupid and boring." I looked forward to Leporello's antics and wisecracks.

I'm old and jaded, I guess.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> _Don Giovanni_ must be one of the the least characterologically profound "greatest operas ever written." I've never been able to see anything interesting in most of the characters; Mozart's inspired melodies seem to me wasted on a mundane bunch of people whose sole distinction lies in their being victims who are good at raising Cain about it. Music - especially great music, which _Don Giovanni_ indisputably is - has magical powers; it makes us feel that we're looking at something more substantial and significant than we really are. The Don himself is nothing but an embodiment of libido and bravado, but except for Leporello, who's at least amusing, the bodies around him are even less than he is: empty skirts who have no biographies, don't do or think anything of interest onstage or off, and wouldn't be worth a moment's notice if they didn't have him to complain about. I'd say that _Figaro_ and _Cosi_ both contain more interesting and/or sympathetic characters than this opera.
> 
> I'd love to hear why I'm wrong about this, Mozarteans. :tiphat:


The music aside, the story belongs on the rack at the grocery store with all the other trashy novels! Beethoven was right!


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> _Don Giovanni_ must be one of the the least characterologically profound "greatest operas ever written." I've never been able to see anything interesting in most of the characters; Mozart's inspired melodies seem to me wasted on a mundane bunch of people whose sole distinction lies in their being victims who are good at raising Cain about it. Music - especially great music, which _Don Giovanni_ indisputably is - has magical powers; it makes us feel that we're looking at something more substantial and significant than we really are. The Don himself is nothing but an embodiment of libido and bravado, but except for Leporello, who's at least amusing, the bodies around him are even less than he is: empty skirts who have no biographies, don't do or think anything of interest onstage or off, and wouldn't be worth a moment's notice if they didn't have him to complain about. I'd say that _Figaro_ and _Cosi_ both contain more interesting and/or sympathetic characters than this opera.
> 
> I'd love to hear why I'm wrong about this, Mozarteans. :tiphat:


Don Giovanni is the bad boy that so many women are attracted to. Donna Elvira is disappointed that she can't change him into a more conventional faithful lover at the same time that she is attracted to him. He defies religion, traditions like marriage, and the laws. He has simple, primitive desires for food, sex, and entertainment. He is an aristocrat but the other aristocrats are no match for him, they are feckless characters. They seem uncertain as to how to confront him and it takes a supernatural being to overcome him in the end. Maybe the opera is more about the thin veneer of civilization than the individual characters. Maybe it has dated a bit in its outlook.
I enjoy the characters myself. I empathize with most of them.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Quite so. *I saw a performance where the Don was suffering from conflict or Freudian guilt or some damn thing. It was disgusting.* Our Don is simply bad to the bone and proud of it! And, as we see, he fears nothing.
> 
> Beethoven's view: "_Die Zauberflote_ will always remain Mozart's greatest work, for in it he for the first time showed himself to be a German musician. _Don Juan_ still has the complete Italian cut; besides our sacred art ought never permit itself to be degraded to the level of a foil for so scandalous a subject."


I saw an idiot production at Covent Garden which explored the Don's 'loneliness'. Complete load of twaddle which changed the meaning of the opera.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Open Book said:


> Don Giovanni is the bad boy that so many women are attracted to. Donna Elvira is disappointed that she can't change him into a more conventional faithful lover at the same time that she is attracted to him. He defies religion, traditions like marriage, and the laws. He has simple, primitive desires for food, sex, and entertainment. He is an aristocrat but the other aristocrats are no match for him, they are feckless characters. They seem uncertain as to how to confront him and it takes a supernatural being to overcome him in the end. Maybe the opera is more about the thin veneer of civilization than the individual characters. Maybe it has dated a bit in its outlook.
> *I enjoy the characters myself. I empathize with most of them*.


Yes I am mystified as to how anyone can see no interest in the characters. They all evolve round the Don in a fascinating fashion. Of course it has dated but that is part of the charm.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Fritz Kobus said:


> The music aside, the story belongs on the rack at the grocery store with all the other trashy novels! Beethoven was right!


In what light does that put other opera libretti! Your rack is sure going to be full! :lol:


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I saw an idiot production at Covent Garden which explored the Don's 'loneliness'. Complete load of twaddle which changed the meaning of the opera.


I'm not generally sympathetic to attempts to read things into operas that aren't there. That seems to be de riguer for regie productions, maybe almost the definition of them. In the case of _Don Giovanni_ I think it's somewhat understandable, especially if we see the piece as something more than a comedy. As presented, all the characters in the opera are pretty one-dimensional; Elvira's attraction to her abuser suggests underlying psychological complexities, but these are not explored. Comedy tends not to concern itself with psychology - it doesn't ask why people behave as they do. But if we think _Don Giovanni_ is in some sense a serious, thought-provoking work (a "tragicomedy" or whatever), then the urge to find something beneath the surface of the characters, the Don in particular, is understandable.

I think the opera is a comedy, a rather black one, but basically funny, including Donna Elvira's melodramatic masochism (Leporello sees it and gleefully twists the knife). But if we want to see it as tragic to any degree, it really is necessary to find something in the Don's character to inspire sympathy. If it's his "loneliness," have at it.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> In what light does that put other opera libretti! Your rack is sure going to be full! :lol:


I have avoided most such operas in my collection.


----------

