# What do conductors actually do during a performance?



## raindog308 (May 31, 2016)

Wikipedia says:

"Conductors act as guides to the orchestras or choirs they conduct. They choose the works to be performed and study their scores, to which they may make certain adjustments (such as in tempo, articulation, phrasing, repetitions of sections), work out their interpretation, and relay their vision to the performers. They may also attend to organizational matters, such as scheduling rehearsals, planning a concert season, hearing auditions and selecting members, and promoting their ensemble in the media."

That all makes sense to me. And I am aware there are conductorless orchestras so they're not strictly necessary.

But when orchestras have conductors, during the performance...what do conductors actually do? Are they necessary, or are they just visual candy? Once all the musicians are in their place and know their roles and have practiced it all to perfection, couldn't they do the performance without the conductor? Does he add to the performance, other than nodding to start the music? I can't believe that the musicians are waiting for his cues like a grade school musical performance.

Or is it more that the conductor really is part of the finished product (having rehearsed with the musicians to make it possible), so he's there symbolizing his role rather than adding any actual music content to the performance?

Just curious. Certainly the visual eccentricities of conductors often add to the performance in other ways 😆


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Victor Borge, What Does A Conductor Do


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

raindog308 said:


> Once all the musicians are in their place and know their roles and have practiced it all to perfection, couldn't they do the performance without the conductor?


Some even say the orchestra played better without conductor.

Others say that conductors are like condoms - it is safer to use them, but it makes more fun without.

No, without kidding: Yes, the major part of the conductor's work is the preparation of the work as a whole. In the rehearsal, if the third flute asks whether the articulation in bar 371 should be this or that way, he has to give a precise answer (or saying something on its own if the third doesn't play according to his ideas). And experienced musicians in the orchestra will notice very early whether the guy (or girl) with the baton is well-prepared or not. (Think for a symphony by Mahler to get an idea how many things are to be prepared. Copying the score by hand would be easier and faster.)

Then the conductor usually has very few time to align the playing of the orchestra to his ideas. There is a saying that with the London orchestras you have one rehearsal of three hours for the whole concert. So you must be fast and concise in explaining your ideas.

What happens during the performance? Well, it depends of the type of conductor. There are some which have defined everything in the rehearsal and there is almost no difference to the concert performance (Karajan). With others, the concert performance is really different from the rehearsal (Abbado). They start being a genious in the concert, not earlier.



raindog308 said:


> I can't believe that the musicians are waiting for his cues like a grade school musical performance.


The conductor remains in the driver seat. Well, there are tales about guest conductors, where the orchestra doesn't care for their signs and they are just playing as they are used to, in particular in the opera, if there is some substitute on short term. But in general the orchestra will follow its conductor.

Don't forget, most pieces have tempo changes, fermatas etc., where you need some coordination. In particular tempo changes can be tricky. And there is the question of balances. They have rehearsed in the empty concert location, now the audience is there and acoustics can be different. It is the task of the conductor to react and to rebalance the sound.

Just some ideas ...


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

What Philidor wrote pretty much sums it up. But there's another aspect: at a concert, a conductor can basically do one of three things:
1) Get in the way and make a mess of things. Usually these are the lazy ones who now want to show off, but don't have the skill or don't really know the music. In rehearsal they took a section in 2, but now they go in 4 throwing every one off. They cause confusion and anxiety in the performance. There are too many of these types.

2) Just do a dutiful, professional, thorough job. Nothing goes wrong, everything is clear. You feel safe. Eye contact and cues are aplenty and you don't sweat.

3) The great ones. These guys save something special for a concert; ESP seems to help. They bring an electricity to a concert because they can. They are rare. They make concerts exciting and truly memorable by taking chances - but always in control. 

It used to be that conductors learned the craft by spending years apprenticing in the opera house and then only once they proved their mettle would they go to the concert stage. Those days are gone, and now every college large and small offers degrees in conducting; most of them are worthless IMO. I cannot stand playing with a conductor who hasn't spent many years at least playing in an orchestra. And you can tell immediately if he/she has or hasn't. And there are too many conductors who do not study the scores and they don't know the repertoire. And that is why the most important job of any conductor seems to be....

pick up the biggest paycheck.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

All of the above, especially the part about the conductor being a visual bridge from music to listener that helps that audience note particular musical components.

I sometimes conduct, often from the keyboard.

Depending on the piece, and whether or not it's instrumental, choral, or musical theatre, different movements/pieces require different methods and the emphasis on different components will vary. 

A conductorless ensemble may find itself rushing, or slowing down. Rubato passages especially suffer, and entrances will be sloppy without a conductor, especially in theatre and choir. Just last night I had to jump in and "beat time" for our pit band as their tempo would keep changing between verses and choruses of a particular song, because the guitarist would speed up during the chorus because his rhythmic riff was different. At other times our [14-year-old] prodigy drummer would speed up or slow down, especially during whole bar rests in the music.

My conducting style is more about precision than emotion, but I work mostly with talented teens and talented amateur groups.

For modern musical theatre, with a small rock pit band, the conductor can often simply set the tempo, get the band started, and then everyone can follow the drummer, although cueing may be needed for entrances and cutoffs. The larger the ensemble, the more a conductor is needed.

For musical theatre, the onstage performers are allowed a certain amount of "freedom" as to how their songs will be performed night to night, and the conductor will translate in real time how the orchestra will have to follow. Also, singers will make mistakes, and random things can happen onstage that will require the orchestra to alter their course. A conductor will signal extra repeats, extended vamps, jumps in the music, unexpectedly longer scene changes.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Our Seattle Symphony Orchestra was a solid orchestra under Milton Katims (1954-1976), performing sold-out concerts and making several recordings. He was what mbhaub described above as a "professional safe conductor." The orchestra loved him and were very loyal to him.

But when Gerard Schwarz took over in 1983, SSO went from being a GOOD orchestra to being a GREAT one. Musicians complained that he was tough, he was ruthless, he fired some under-performing musicians (with tenure) and pushed the remaining musicians to their limits and beyond. But it paid off, and the SSO became world-class.

That's not on the orchestra. That's on the conductor.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> What Philidor wrote pretty much sums it up. But there's another aspect: at a concert, a conductor can basically do one of three things:
> 1) Get in the way and make a mess of things. Usually these are the lazy ones who now want to show off, but don't have the skill or don't really know the music. In rehearsal they took a section in 2, but now they go in 4 throwing every one off. They cause confusion and anxiety in the performance. There are too many of these types.
> 
> 2) Just do a dutiful, professional, thorough job. Nothing goes wrong, everything is clear. You feel safe. Eye contact and cues are aplenty and you don't sweat.
> ...


Yes, many great conductors began in opera houses as rehearsal pianists and. began to conduct some performances during the run of one which had been conducted by an established master conductor , and then the young conductors would begin to conduct orchestral concerts . But not every eminent conductor began this way . For example Leopold Stokowski , Eugene Ormandy , Willem Mengelberg, Eduard van Beinum , Serge Koussevitzky , Charles Munch to name only some . So it's not absolutely necessary to begin in an opera house to become an eminent conductor . But it certainly helps .


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Just like in any other area of life a leader, in this case a conductor, leads the performance and creates a vision of what s/he wants to create musically. I have worked under at least a dozen different ones. They have the same range of adequacy as any other area of life. Most are competent, a few very good or bad, rarely great or terrible. The best ones have the most firm idea(s) of what they want to achieve musically and the ability to communicated this to players without alienating them. They do this primarily in practice. What happens in concert is the summation of everything that has been achieved during practices. The idea oft-stated in musical criticism and circles of a "one off" great performance is always result of practice, vision, patience and effort. Practice is where the conductor does the most work; performance is more the afterthought -- the reason Karajan always said he could conduct only with his eyes. He just had to look where the entries were.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Accidentaly, just this morning, I re-read this funny story about a popular writer, Robert Fulghum, who had a life-long fantasy about conducting "The Ode to Joy" part of Beethoven's symphony. He mentioned it in one of his books, and one orchestra offered him the chance to try it, because they were desperate to attract some money from the audience. They didn't really check his previous musical education, which was basically nonexistent. And, as was explained there, the object of Fulghums dreams was actually a musical piece which relies on the conductor a lot, with the pauses, changes of the tempi, and coordinating the singers who were guests rather than a regular part of the orchestra. Fulghum took half a year off work and dedicated all his time to learning what he needed. As a result, everybody considered it a great achievement, that the whole thing did not fall apart. But it was not really pleasurable. He did 2 performances, but on the third, he made some grand moving speech in the concert hall and asked the real conductor to take over, so that the music is not ruined one more time.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*What do conductors actually do during a performance?*

I think they chew gum.

After all, what better validates success as a music director than to be able to "conduct and chew gum" at the same time?
I understand that Toscanini was a Wrigley's Spearmint devotee, while Furtwangler and Bernstein preferred Juicy Fruit.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

larold said:


> the reason Karajan always said he could conduct only with his eyes. He just had to look where the entries were.


except Karajan conducted much of the time with his eyes closed...he didn't look at snyone.


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## Georgieva (7 mo ago)

Heck148 said:


> except Karajan conducted much of the time with his eyes closed...he didn't look at snyone.


Disagree for Karajan. We can say that only for some exceptional moments.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Georgieva said:


> Disagree for Karajan. We can say that only for some exceptional moments.


It was pretty common for vK....


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Heck148 said:


> It was pretty common for vK....


... in particular when the cameras were running ...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Philidor said:


> ... in particular when the cameras were running ...


He said something like <<with his eyes closed he could sense better when someone was going to make a mistake>>!! 
Certainly one of the stranger comments I've ever heard re conducting...


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

NoCoPilot said:


> Our Seattle Symphony Orchestra was a solid orchestra under Milton Katims (1954-1976), performing sold-out concerts and making several recordings. He was what mbhaub described above as a "professional safe conductor." The orchestra loved him and were very loyal to him.
> 
> But when Gerard Schwarz took over in 1983, SSO went from being a GOOD orchestra to being a GREAT one. Musicians complained that he was tough, he was ruthless, he fired some under-performing musicians (with tenure) and pushed the remaining musicians to their limits and beyond. But it paid off, and the SSO became world-class.
> 
> That's not on the orchestra. That's on the conductor.


Gerry also conducted the Mostly Mozart Festival Orchestra and New York Chamber Symphony. (I’m not sure how much the membership overlapped.) I was involved with the 92nd St. Y, which was the home for the latter, and saw almost all his concerts. Great stuff. During his tenure the Y was the third most important center for classical music in NYC, after Lincoln Center and Carnegie. (Happy to say it’s on the way to reclaiming that status.)


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

A group of people are playing. Each of them can either play their best or go through the motions. Each of them could make tiny mistakes, or get out of sync with musicians at the far end of a room. Although they can get through it on their own, it makes sense that a gifted person can keep them together, inspire them to play their best, make them feel that they're part of a team under a great leader. Just as a great head master or head mistress can raise the whole achievement of a school even if it's been under 'special measures' with a number of problems. 

One talented and inspiring individual can make a difference - just as an arrogant and insensitive one can.


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## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

I have wondered for a long time exactly what it is that conductors do. 

I am even more confused now, after I watched this amazing performance by Bernstein and Krystian Zimerman of Brahms' PC #1 and 2. I love the music, and it seems to me that in the first movement, especially in the loudest sections with that strong theme, L.B. is lifting his arms UP on the downbeat. Explain THAT !


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

When Gustavo Dudamel arrived in the US, he lit a fire under Classical music.

Apart from that, the trombonists, bass trombonist and tuba have the trumpets blowing directly in their ear. And the horns directly in front of the trumpets. They can't hear what the first violin section is doing. They need the conductor's visual cues.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

BillT said:


> I have wondered for a long time exactly what it is that conductors do.
> 
> I am even more confused now, after I watched this amazing performance by Bernstein and Krystian Zimerman of Brahms' PC #1 and 2. I love the music, and it seems to me that in the first movement, especially in the loudest sections with that strong theme, L.B. is lifting his arms UP on the downbeat. Explain THAT !


I don't know exactly what spot you're talking about, re lifting his arms Up on the downbeat. But here goes: the downbeat, or any beat, needs to have a point of rebound - the ictus. It's like the baton hits a hard surface and bounces off. It's a skill that some conductors never master. To make it more complicated to the unwary: some orchestras, play behind the beat and they do it as a whole; it's very disconcerting to conductors who don't get it and to players not used to it. The Berlin Philharmonic is famous (or notorious) for this and if you listen carefully to their videos, every now and then a green player plays on the beat with the conductor, coming in before the rest of the orchestra. The Vienna Philharmonic plays in much the same style. The great conductors of the past had an almost hypnotic influence on an orchestra and somehow they communicated and played together. 

Then there's this: orchestras have a tendency to drag the tempo down. They all do it and it takes a conductor who is a real leader to lead them! One of the worst things about amateur groups is that slowing down. Just moving a baton faster doesn't do the job and one of the tricks of the trade is to propel a beat from the bottom to the top; there's something psychological reason behind it - like you're pushing the group to get a move on! Works for me, but I'm no LB. Try to find the DVD of Bernstein doing the Mahler 2 in Ely Cathedral. Watch closely at the beginning of the last movement and then explain how they ever found the beat to enter together, but they did! And London orchestras are the type that play on the beat with razor precision - like Cleveland.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> The Berlin Philharmonic is famous (or notorious) for this and if you listen carefully to their videos, ...... The Vienna Philharmonic plays in much the same style


The behind the beat style drove Solti nuts, he had major fights with VPO over this...he preferred the American style, right on the beat -Chicago, NYPO.
,


> Just moving a baton faster doesn't do the job and one of the tricks of the trade is to propel a beat from the bottom to the top


 to increase speed, conduct with a smaller beat......I remember a guy trying to conduct overture to Nabucco...he wanted it to go in one but hse kept enlarging the beat...so it never got faster...watch videos of Reiner and Monteux...very small beat, but tempo just zipping along with perfect precision...small beat fast...and make sure your basses and percussion are playing " right at the front of the beat".


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Of course, then there are the complete incompetent idiots who try to conduct so fast (any pattern) that it becomes utterly meaningless, impossible to look at, and screws everything up. Like the recent grad of a "leading European conservatory" I played the Brahms 3rd with. The first movement he conducted in a very fast, and impossible to follow, 6. It kept falling apart and he was getting madder and madder. Then the concertmaster mercifully said, "just conduct the f***king thing in 2!" He did and it went fine. Didn't hire him, either.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> ....Like the recent grad of a "leading European conservatory" I played the Brahms 3rd with. The first movement he conducted in a very fast, and impossible to follow, 6. It kept falling apart and he was getting madder and madder. Then the concertmaster mercifully said, "just conduct the f***king thing in 2!" He did and it went fine. Didn't hire him, either.


Brahms 3/I is tough on conductors, needs to go in .two (tho in 3 in places)...but the sub- division must always be maintained...not surprising that a poor conductor made a mess of it.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Decades ago I was playing (string and guitar patches on synth) with a rather sizeable orchestra (all parts except strings and guitar) for a production of *West Side Story* for large regional theatre. The conductor was someone I'd worked with many times. He was a very likeable guy, but only an average conductor. Musicians loved working with him because it was always a pleasant gig.

The problem is that most of the shows he'd conducted were far easier than WSS. Our orchestra sounded lousy. We were often out-of-synch, and many entrance cues were missed. We were sloppy, and it wasn't getting any better. Bernstein's WSS is challenging

It was Tech Week, and on the Wednesday before the Friday opening the Musical Director himself stepped up to conduct after informing us all that our conductor had been "let go". The MD stood there, rigid, sized up the orchestra, raised both arms, and gave a clear, concise, precise prep and downbeat. His conducting was clear and aggressive, and the orchestra suddenly sounded astonishingly professional. It was the same group of musicians, but we were able play better as a group with an excellent conductor.

THAT was when I learned how important a conductor can be.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Didn't Kleiber like the slightly more "diffuse" sound of just asking the orchestra to come in at any point during his baton beat, or was that one of those fake bits of classical lore


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

fbjim said:


> Didn't Kleiber like the slightly more "diffuse" sound of just asking the orchestra to come in at any point during his baton beat, or was that one of those fake bits of classical lore


Solti maintains that this is the Austro-German approach to attacks/entrances, a more soft effect diffuse effect...He didn't care for it and had some major fights with VPO over it... the VPO members asking why he would want everybody sounding at the same instant!! He asked if perhaps, maybe half the musicians could all come in at the same instant!! lol!!
Solti preferred the American style - very sharp, precise attacks/entrances - Toscanini, Reiner, Szell, Solti were all proponents of this approach.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

A good conductor can remind the orchestra of the most important items discussed during rehearsal with their cues during the performance. They also can transmit some of the emotion, passion, and energy that they have to the individual players. Sometimes, it is just making the tiniest adjustments and encouragements that make the difference between an adequate performance and an outstanding one.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

A conductor must know the piece by ear and score from beginning to end.They must know what every instrument part is doing at all times.
They must be able to sing by sight every line in the entire score.So if asked to do so must be able to sing on the spot for instance maybe the 2nd oboe part by sight.

They must be able keep time from beginning to end and never loose track of where they are.

They must control dynamics within the orchestra ,so if the horns are playing loud and the string are playing soft or medium they must control this.Every member of the orchestra has there own notion of say Mezzo Forte,so the conductor must make that relative to there taste.

With all the flack conductors take for being bad and tasteless and terrible, but the musical talent it takes to be at the helm of a large professional orchestra and simply conduct is something 1 in a 1000 of the general public could even do.

Think about that before you insult the conductor


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Conductors are like sonic traffic cops - they are in position to hear all the sounds produced, and to balance them, coordinate them, correct them as needed..
Boris Goldovsky, [opera guru, Reiner student] used to tell his students - 
<<don't be a kapellmeister!!>> mechanically chopping out 4/4 rhythms in metronomic pedestrian monotony....he come up behind and wrap his arms around the time-choppers to halt the "kapellmeister stuff"
<<make the musicians listen to each other, like chamber music...the conductor must go into the score - know what is important, what must be heard, what is not so important, should be less....the conductor must explore the score - find those little details, those touches of genius, those inner parts, a special dissonance, a trill, an important passing tone, etc...that are so vital to the music..>>

I always valued his comments, I wish more conductors would heed his advice....


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

there's an old musician's joke about a conductor that was murdered during a performance but the police couldn't find any witnesses


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## Bernamej (Feb 24, 2014)

Wow, what a thread ! Thanks to all the comments ! Absolute great reading.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

If I recall aright, Weingartner had a famously wavering beat. Asked how the Boston Symphony knew when to come in, the concertmaster replied: when the baton reaches the third button on his waistcoat. Possibly apocryphal, but a nice story.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Steatopygous said:


> If I recall aright, Weingartner had a famously wavering beat. Asked how the Boston Symphony knew when to come in, the concertmaster replied: when the baton reaches the third button on his waistcoat. Possibly apocryphal, but a nice story.


That was Koussevitsky, iirc...


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