# My Orchestral Journey



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

For years I've not listened to any orchestral music since it has not be interesting to me. But now I will embark on a journey of the major symphonic literature. Your recommendations are more than welcome.

I will begin with complete cycles of 

Mahler
Sibelius
Vaughan Williams

This is all new for me. I've only really listened to chamber music, solo piano, in the past. Orchestral music seemed bombastic and cliched to my ears. This journey may open me up to music I've ignored until now, or it may confirm my bias against large orchestral works.

Your suggestions are welcome - specific recordings, let me know what I should listen to.

Thanks.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

You should save Mahler for later; his symphonies are difficult to grasp for new listeners but are well worth the effort. For Mahler, Bernstein is a great interpreter.

I suggest:
Mozart Piano Concertos 20-27, Symphonies 38-41, Clarinet Concerto
Haydn The London Symphonies 93-104, Cello Concertos
Mendelssohn Symphonies 3 and 4, Violin Concerto
Bach The Brandenburg Concertos

These works are accessible, top-rate, and are not bombastic by orchestral standards.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

ORigel said:


> You should save Mahler for later; his symphonies are difficult to grasp for new listeners but are well worth the effort. For Mahler, Bernstein is a great interpreter.
> 
> I suggest:
> Mozart Piano Concertos 20-27, Symphonies 38-41, Clarinet Concerto
> ...


Thanks, but I should have been more specific. I know those works, and have several complete sets of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven, as well as the Bach. I've also listened quite a bit of Brahms. I have enjoyed these works very much, but still my listening is mainly chamber music.

This journey will be of the late 19rth century works, that have so far eluded me: Mahler and into the 20th century. It's not as thought I've never listened to them, I do have two complete sets of Mahler, Boulez and Bernstein, its just that, except for a few individual movements, they've never been works I've returned to with any regularity.

So, now is the time for another attempt.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I would re-visit the Brahms, and my other recommendations: 

All the symphonies of
Ives 
Prokofiev
Stravinsky

Debussy - La Mer
Bartok - Concerto for Orchestra, Music for Percussion, Strings and Celesta
Rachmaninov - Symphony no. 3, Symphonic Dances


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

tdc said:


> I would re-visit the Brahms, and my other recommendations:
> 
> All the symphonies of
> Ives
> ...


Thanks for these suggestions. I've heard all these, to varying degrees, but not very much, so it will be interesting to spend more time with them.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Based on what you’ve previously shared about your preferences, I might suggest the symphonies of Honegger and Martinu. But I think Sibelius is probably the ideal place to start, especially if your aversion to orchestral music stems from thick, bombastic textures. Try the 6th. His orchestra is always small-to-average sized, and he produces the most gorgeous crystalline textures in which you can hear every line in any decent performance. Go for the Berglund/Bournemouth recordings.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Based on what you've previously shared about your preferences, I might suggest the symphonies of Honegger and Martinu. But I think Sibelius is probably the ideal place to start, especially if your aversion to orchestral music stems from thick, bombastic textures. Try the 6th. *His orchestra is always small-to-average sized, and he produces the most gorgeous crystalline textures *in which you can hear every line in any decent performance. Go for the Berglund/Bournemouth recordings.


Thanks, that sounds interesting to me.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

If a composer alludes to _La Marseillaise_ to signal the entrance of anything French ... or "Ride of the Valkyries" to telegraph something Germanic, then this is cliché (whether performed by a string quartet or a 96-piece orchestra). 
Bombast, to me, is when an ensemble is instructed to play _fortissimo_ regardless of how many musicians are assembled.

True, certain repertoire gets overexposed to the detriment of infrequently performed/recorded lesser-knowns, but allergic reactions against Romantic-era writing/thinking should not taint the entirety of orchestral music.

Perhaps avoidance of works in which all instrumental sections of the orchestra perform simultaneously would be in order?

My initial suggestions are from a few albums which showcase orchestral forces used sparingly by a composer to achieve chamber-like textures.

Roberto Gerhard's 1965 *Concerto for Orchestra*










or

Morton Feldman's 5 compositions for orchestra (spanning 1950s through 1970s) on the _mode_ label.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Prodromides said:


> My initial suggestions are from a few albums which showcase orchestral forces used sparingly by a composer to achieve chamber-like textures.
> 
> Roberto Gerhard's 1965 *Concerto for Orchestra*
> 
> ...


Thanks. Feldman is a composer I've listened to a lot and have heard his orchestral music, but thanks for the Gerhard suggestion. Will check it out.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I have been using this
https://www.talkclassical.com/65652-game-nominations-unheralded-symphonies-9.html#post1822723
https://www.talkclassical.com/65526-ubheralded-symphonies-game-2020-a-7.html#post1813988
to select symphonies to listen to. I have participated in the Bulldog's game and I am half-way through ArtRock's list. Some very decent symphonies there. Frankly, I would get bored fast if I only listened to the symphonies of Wolfie, Luigi, Brahms, Sibelius, Mahler, Dvořák etc.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Alexander Gibson for Sibelius symphonies and tone poems. Mahler could take a few months of concentrated listening to really begin to absorb the music. I like the Boulez and Bernstein NYP cycles.

I'm not much of a VW fan. I'd rather listen to the symphonies of Nielsen, Honegger, or Lutoslawski. Blomstedt is a good Nielsen cycle. Honegger by Dutoit on Apex is a great sounding set. Luto on Naxos or his own recordings on EMI.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> For years I've not listened to any orchestral music since it has not be interesting to me. But now I will embark on a journey of the major symphonic literature. Your recommendations are more than welcome.
> 
> I will begin with complete cycles of
> 
> ...


Nothing whatsoever bombastic about Sibelius's last four symphonies; just my perception of course. I could not say that about his first three symphonies.

You will know that sometimes the conductor can force bombast out of works that otherwise might sound just fine.

The sheer human honour and integrity that Sibelius suffuses his seventh symphony with remains staggering to me. The final climax is so expertly conceived it doesn't seem to be humanly possible. Note the level of organic cohesion he achieves as the trombone theme return and is transformed.

It never really worked for me either until I heard Leif Segerstam and the DNSO.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

janxharris said:


> Nothing whatsoever bombastic about Sibelius's last four symphonies; just my perception of course. I could not say that about his first three symphonies.
> 
> You will know that sometimes the conductor can force bombast out of works that otherwise might sound just fine.
> 
> ...


Thanks. The "bombast" comment was just a generalized reaction to some Romantic orchestral music, not specific to Sibelius.

What I am doing is creating playlists on Spotify of the individual symphonies by a number of different conductors for both Mahler and Sibelius. Then listen to them randomly. If something tickles my ear, I'll go to the full recording and save it for a listen later.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

San Antone, try the VW oboe concerto by Maurice Bourgue with the English String Orchestra under William Boughton. One of his pieces I really enjoy and the soloist is superb. I have it on one of four discs of non symphony works on the Nimbus label. Here's the 1st movement.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> San Antone, try the VW oboe concerto by Maurice Bourgue with the English String Orchestra under William Boughton. One of his pieces I really enjoy and the soloist is superb. I have it on one of four discs of non symphony works on the Nimbus label. Here's the 1st movement.


Thanks, will do - nice to get a non-symphony recommendation.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Elgar 2 has some very Mahlerian moments, he’s the English Mahler.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Elgar 2 has some very Mahlerian moments, he's the English Mahler.


Thanks. Never heard that about Elgar.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> Thanks, will do - nice to get a non-symphony recommendation.


Here's a contemporary piece that knocked me out. Magnus Lindberg's clarinet concerto. The soloist, Kari Kriikku, is phenomenal!


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> Here's a contemporary piece that knocked me out. Magnus Lindberg's clarinet concerto. The soloist, Kari Kriikku, is phenomenal!


Yeah, I know it, and like it. Lindberg is among the most intriguing living composers.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> Thanks. Never heard that about Elgar.


The rondo. Elgar recorded the second symphony, terrible sound but amazing performance. I'll be interested to see what you make of Vaughan Williams. It's like, 40 years since I last listened to his music, but I remember there were some strange things in the later music, something called Symphonia Antarctica maybe.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> Yeah, I know it, and like it. Lindberg is among the most intriguing living composers.


How about Fagerlund's bassoon concerto? It's on a disc paired with the Aho but I thought the Fagerlund was the better piece.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_I will begin with complete cycles of Mahler, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams_

I wouldn't spend your time or money on cycles unless you know the composer well, are certain you like the orchestra and leader, and know the music. I'd recommend you start by getting to know the composers.

Vaughan Williams is by far the easiest to know. Listen to his symphonies 3 and 4 and you will have a very good idea if you want to pursue him further. These two are diametrically opposed and will show you the pastoral and violent sides of this composer. If you enjoy them move on to symphony 2 subtitled "London" and see if you like it. If you enjoy all three you may be prepared to tackle the less obvious symphonies nos. 1, 8 and 9. No. 7, subtitled Antarctica, is easy to know and full of mystery. No. 6 is on the violent, disturbed side like No. 4.

Mahler is very difficult to know. His First symphony is pretty straightforward, probably the only one of the batch that is. Nos. 2 through 4 all have vocal, solo or choral sections. Nos. 5 through 7 are all strictly instrumental. No. 8 is a crazy thing and No. 9 is an intense swansong to the world. There are several hybrids called No. 10 but Mahler did not complete it. Any of them show the ideas of other people. His symphonies run between an hour and almost 2 hours' duration. I'd start with nos. 1, 5 and 2 in that order. If you like them, move onto Nos. 4, 7 and 9. If you like them try the rest.

Sibelius has three highly romantic symphonies that are easy to hear and digest -- nos. 1, 2 and 5. You won't have any trouble liking them or getting to know them. All the others are more difficult to know and understand. No. 4 is probably the best but also the hardest to 'get'. Nos. 3, 6 and 7 -- especially 7 -- are all masterpieces but you may not think so at first.

I would steer clear of sets unless you know a conductor you love without question. If so get his set. Otherwise dabble individually in the works. Here are some sets I found helpful though I don't believe any set holds the key to all a composer has to say:

Vaughan Williams: Thomson, Boult's first mono set.
Mahler: Abravanel, Neumann Czech Philharmonic though I like Neumann's with Gewandhaus Orchestra much better.
Sibelius: Davis, Barbirolli, Maazel though all these sets have duds. I don't know a Sibelius set that doesn't have at least 1 clinker.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

larold said:


> _I will begin with complete cycles of Mahler, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams_
> 
> I wouldn't spend your time or money on cycles unless you know the composer well, are certain you like the orchestra and leader, and know the music. I'd recommend you start by getting to know the composers.
> 
> ...


Many thanks for your very informative post. However, I don't plan on buying any sets, I already own two complete sets of Mahler, and for the rest, I'll be listening on Spotify.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> The rondo. Elgar recorded the second symphony, terrible sound but amazing performance. I'll be interested to see what you make of Vaughan Williams. It's like, 40 years since I last listened to his music, but I remember there were some strange things in the later music, something called Symphonia Antarctica maybe.


It will be a struggle since I've never warmed to his music. I expect to give up on RVW after a little bit - but I've also been told that Symphonia Antarctica might be am exception. But Mahler and Sibelius have a fair shot of gaining a foothold with me.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> How about Fagerlund's bassoon concerto? It's on a disc paired with the Aho but I thought the Fagerlund was the better piece.


Never heard of Fagerlund, so will give it a shot - but I know and like Aho, generally. Thanks. :tiphat:


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

You may already know Panufnik's bassoon concerto? That's another excellent work. I have it in the CPO box but there's another recording on an out of print Conifer CD I have that is my favorite version.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> Never heard of Fagerlund, so will give it a shot - but I know and like Aho, generally. Thanks. :tiphat:


Aho has a really cool double bass concerto worth checking out. It's a much different take on the concerto medium: instead of the solo instrument being in the spotlight and showing off extreme virtuosity, the bass adds extra texture and depth to the overall orchestral texture. It's also more of an atmospheric piece than a loud bombastic one, which I know puts you off a lot of orchestral music


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> You may already know Panufnik's bassoon concerto? That's another excellent work. I have it in the CPO box but there's another recording on an out of print Conifer CD I have that is my favorite version.


I have heard some of Panufnik work (I assume you mean the father and not the daughter), but I don't think the bassoon concerto. BTW, I am listening to the Fagerlund concerto and like what I've heard - very happy to have discovered a new composer, thanks to you.



GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Aho has a really cool double bass concerto worth checking out. It's a much different take on the concerto medium: instead of the solo instrument being in the spotlight and showing off extreme virtuosity, the bass adds extra texture and depth to the overall orchestral texture. It's also more of an atmospheric piece than a loud bombastic one, which I know puts you off a lot of orchestral music


I'll see if I can find it on Spotify - sounds interesting.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

I love big, noisy, woolly mammoth, symphonies of the Late-Romantic and Early Modern eras; stuff by the likes of Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, Nielsen, Shostakovich, etc.

There are lots of great symphony cycles composed entirely within the 20th century that are outstanding. Of those who composed at least 8 of them, first and foremost come Shostakovich probably followed by Vaughan Williams; but then there's also Roy Harris, William Schuman, Walter Piston, Roger Sessions, Alan Hovhaness, and Einojuhani Rautavaara. Probably Bax and Myaskovsky are great too, or so I hear, as I haven't yet given their cycles an even chance. Great American symphonies include the works of some of the above but also Charles Ives's _Symphony #4_ which is probably the finest symphony composed by an American, and Aaron Copland whose _Symphony #3_ is outstanding. In the age of America's first Black and female Vice President, Florence Price's _Symphony #1_ which is rooted in 19th Century American classical music that followed more-or-less along the lines of European Romanticism and especially Dvorak, but Price also adds in a lot that is her own with some incorporation of African American folk music and jazz, as well as building in a bright and optimistic sense of humor.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

tdc said:


> I would re-visit the Brahms


I would suggest getting to know the symphonies in reverse numerical order, and to not neglect the two serenades and overtures.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Check out Weinberg's symphonies and concertos.


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## thejewk (Sep 13, 2020)

For further exploring Mahler, I have purchased two sets for cheap that have some brilliant and varied performances. First is EMI's Complete Works set containing performances from Rattle, Klemperer, Horenstein, Barbirolli, Walter, Giulini. The second is on DG and is called People's Choice, because it involved some sort of website on which people could pick their favourite performances of each symphony from their catalogue. It has Mehta, Abbado, Bernstein, Kubelik, Chially, and others which escape me for the moment. 

It's a great way to, for little money, get a good taste for the range of approaches available. Also it might be worth looking at Benjamin Zander's recordings which include an extra CD with a full lecture on each of them, and it's interesting stuff.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> Check out Weinberg's symphonies and concertos.


I am a huge fan of his string quartets, but haven't listened much to the symphonies, not nearly as much as I have the Shostakovich symphonies. Thanks.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Coach G said:


> I love big, noisy, woolly mammoth, symphonies of the Late-Romantic and Early Modern eras; stuff by the likes of Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, Nielsen, Shostakovich, etc.
> 
> There are lots of great symphony cycles composed entirely within the 20th century that are outstanding. Of those who composed at least 8 of them, first and foremost come Shostakovich probably followed by Vaughan Williams; but then there's also Roy Harris, William Schuman, Walter Piston, Roger Sessions, Alan Hovhaness, and Einojuhani Rautavaara. Probably Bax and Myaskovsky are great too, or so I hear, as I haven't yet given their cycles an even chance. Great American symphonies include the works of some of the above but also Charles Ives's Symphony #4 which is probably the finest symphony composed by an American, and Aaron Copland whose _Symphony #3_ is outstanding. In the age of America's first Black and female Vice President, Florence Price's _Symphony #1_ which is rooted in 19th Century American classical music that followed more-or-less along the lines of European Romanticism and especially Dvorak, but Price also adds in a lot that is her own with some incorporation of African American folk music and jazz, as well as building in a bright and optimistic sense of humor.


Some of these I've heard, all of the Shostakovich symphonies, the Ives, e.g., and Rautavaara, and I even have a complete set of the Bax symphonies, although I've hardly opened it up. Myaskovsky is promising since I really like his string quartets. You didn't mention the three Bernstein symphonies, some favorites of mine, but I've never much enjoyed the other what I call academic Americans. I know the Copland work, but I prefer his other music. Florence Price is a new name, so I'll check that out. Thanks.



thejewk said:


> For further exploring Mahler, I have purchased two sets for cheap that have some brilliant and varied performances. First is EMI's Complete Works set containing performances from Rattle, Klemperer, Horenstein, Barbirolli, Walter, Giulini. The second is on DG and is called People's Choice, because it involved some sort of website on which people could pick their favourite performances of each symphony from their catalogue. It has Mehta, Abbado, Bernstein, Kubelik, Chially, and others which escape me for the moment.
> 
> It's a great way to, for little money, get a good taste for the range of approaches available. Also it might be worth looking at Benjamin Zander's recordings which include an extra CD with a full lecture on each of them, and it's interesting stuff.


Thanks. Spotify is a great resource most if not all of the recordings you mention are available to stream. I hardly buy any CDs anymore. I am familiar with that People's Choice set, and I even think it is on Spotify. Thanks.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

SanAntone said:


> For years I've not listened to any orchestral music since it has not be interesting to me. But now I will embark on a journey of the major symphonic literature. Your recommendations are more than welcome.
> 
> I will begin with complete cycles of
> 
> ...


RVW is one of my favorite composers of all time, but I'm not sure you'll change your mind about him upon future listenings. I don't think it's up your alley. Definitely give the Sibelius more listens. They are extremely rewarding. The guy was extremely versatile and each symphony is unique. He had a huge range. He could be impressionistic (like writing completely modal music, but orchestrated very differently than say, Debussy), or late Romantic, and then go more of a modern language where it is difficult to analyze in a tonal sense. Mahler can surprise you as well, as not all of his music is over-the-top bombastic, cliched sound we associate with him. Much of it is actually subtle and nuanced like the 3rd and 4th sym. And his Adagio movements are incredible.

Anyway, I spent the last half hour writing down my favorites of symphonic music of the 75 year period between 1890 to 1965 (I went outside of that for a couple recommendations) which is probably my favorite period of CM.

*Top Tier Recommendations:*

1. Franco Donatoni (it cannot even be described how good this orchestral music is. All of it is good. And there is a lot of it. Very important composer and teacher. Very unique voice. If you've never heard of him, please give several pieces a try. Much of it is very subtle and not bombastic at all).

2. William Walton (especially check out the Second Symphony. Wrongfully overshadowed by the First. check out the recording of Ashkenazy conducting).

3. Ernst Krenek (mid and late symphonies, much of them 12-tone, not bombastic). Excellent composer.

4. Colin McPhee (inspired by Balinese music. Highly original composer. Friend of Bernstein. Way ahead of his time. Check this out 



)

5. Arthur Berger (wrote for small orchestras and language ranged from tonal to twelve-tone. None of it is bombastic or vulgar).

6. Wallingford Riegger (especially Symphony No. 3, a twelve-tone work)-a friend of Bernstein, who spoke highly of the Riegger and called him "Wally"

7. I second the Martinu recommendation. You may also want to try Darius Milhaud, who used a lot of jazz influence in his compositions, neoclassicism, and polytonality; and not a whole lot of bombast.

8. Goffredo Petrassi

9. Alan Rawsthorne (Piano Concertos and Symphonies)

10. If you want to give film composers a chance on their concert music, the absolute best at writing serious music for the concert hall was without a doubt Miklos Rozsa. Check out his Violin Concerto, but get your hands on any art music he wrote. Talented stuff.

11. Benjamin Lees (you may like his concertos for chamber groups and orchestra, the writing is obviously of a chamber-style quality).

12. Donald Martino (all orchestral works, especially Triple Concerto)

13. Jacob Druckman (especially Windows)

14. Rodion Shchedrin (Piano Concertos and Symphonies)

15. Humphrey Searle

*Very good orchestral composers or pieces you probably have already heard or know about from this period:*

Toru Takemitsu (any and all orchestral works)
Carl Ruggles (Sun-treader)
Karl Amadeus Hartmann (complete symphonies)
Eduard Tubin
Vagn Holmboe (Symphonies)
Alan Hovhaness (I think you will really like this guy's symphonies (67 of them) as he did his own thing and did not adhere to any strict "rules" or objectivity). Some of them are bombastic but some are just the opposite.
Ernest Bloch (a wonderfully tonal and modal composer who wrote for smaller orchestras. A good example of a modern composer who "behaved" himself and tried to write beautiful music).
Samuel Adler
George Perle

*Honorable Mentions:*

Gunther Schuller
John Harbison (Symphonies 1, 2, 5, 6; Oboe Concerto)
Nikolai Karetnikov (Symphonies, particularly No. 4, bombastic however. 12-tone)
Gail Kubik (Sym. No 2, all orchestral works)
Leon Kirchner (orchestral music including Piano Concertos, highly dissonant and bombastic so not sure if you will like)
Norman Dello Joio
Irving Fine (the one symphony he wrote is quite listenable and highly recommended).
Harold Shapero (same as comments for Fine).
Henk Badings (Symphonies)
Klaus Egge (Piano Concertos and Symphonies)
Willem Pijper (1894-1947) had a unique atonal style. Wrote some nice symphonies and great chamber music as well.
If you're tired of the typical early American symphonist recommendations, you might try Leo Sowerby's (1895-1968) From the Northland.
Joseph Schwanter (can be bombastic, but good)
Peter Lieberson

*Some older composers at turn of 19th century/early 20th:*

Ferrucio Busoni
Albert Roussel
Ottorino Respighi (might sound a little too "film score-ish" for you, though)
George Enescu


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Good to see mention of Donatoni. Whenever I clean the house I always put on _Flag_. It's not so much bombastic as arrogant, brash. Formally interesting music too. Like it.

Listening right now to a not unattractive piece of symphony orchestra music, _Whispers out of Time_ by Roger Reynolds.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Torkelburger said:


> RVW is one of my favorite composers of all time, but I'm not sure you'll change your mind about him upon future listenings. I don't think it's up your alley. Definitely give the Sibelius more listens. They are extremely rewarding. The guy was extremely versatile and each symphony is unique. He had a huge range. He could be impressionistic (like writing completely modal music, but orchestrated very differently than say, Debussy), or late Romantic, and then go more of a modern language where it is difficult to analyze in a tonal sense. Mahler can surprise you as well, as not all of his music is over-the-top bombastic, cliched sound we associate with him. Much of it is actually subtle and nuanced like the 3rd and 4th sym. And his Adagio movements are incredible.
> 
> Anyway, I spent the last half hour writing down my favorites of symphonic music of the 75 year period between 1890 to 1965 (I went outside of that for a couple recommendations) which is probably my favorite period of CM.
> 
> ...


Thank you for spending time to create this post, it is very helpful. I've bolded the composers I like among your suggestions, although generally not very acquainted with their orchestral music, so extra thanks there. I am surprised you didn't mention George Rochberg, he's another American I've listened to and liked.

I've underlined the names completely new to me, and I always enjoy discovering new composers.

Again, thank you for the effort it took to put this information together. :tiphat:


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

You're welcome! Yes, I thought about recommending Rochberg, but I thought he might have been too bombastic or too tonal (well, Sym 3 and after). I wasn't exactly sure. I'm glad you like his music! He is one of my favorites. He's written lots of fantastic solo and chamber music too, as I'm sure you are aware.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Where is Bartok in your thinking? Concerto for Orchestra? Music for strings, percussion and celestial? Honegger's symphonies (esp 3)? I also agree with Nielsen as a recommendation. Such a personal voice. Symphonies 3 and 5 particularly. 

Sorry about the "celestial". Auto correct! Haha!


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Eclectic Al said:


> Where is Bartok in your thinking? Concerto for Orchestra? Music for strings, percussion and celestial? Honegger's symphonies (esp 3)? I also agree with Nielsen as a recommendation. Such a personal voice. Symphonies 3 and 5 particularly.
> 
> Sorry about the "celestial". Auto correct! Haha!


I like some Bartok, the SQs of course, the Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion, the piano concertos, but have never gotten into the Concerto for Orchestra. Music for strings, percussion and celeste is something I've listened to and liked. There's lots of Bartok I don't know. Miraculous Mandarin, e.g. - and the Divertimento.

I've got a box set of the Nielsen symphonies, but don't remember them, I should probably include them in this latest orchestral trip. Honegger is another composer I've heard of but not listened to much.

Thanks.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The Honegger cello concerto is a gorgeous piece of music. I have the Rostropovich recording on EMI.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

For composers apart from the most well-known, there are two threads that I started in the Orchestral Music forum:

1. Neglected German and Austrian orchestral composers of the late romantic era
2. Unheralded French orchestral composers of the late romantic era. This one is in-progress. On the thread there is a fine list of recordings compiled by *josquin13* that he has shared with us.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Still- Afro American Symphony
Rorem - Symphony no. 3
Stravinsky - Symphony of Psalms, Symphony in Three Movements, Symphony in C


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> I like some Bartok, the SQs of course, the Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion, the piano concertos, but have never gotten into the Concerto for Orchestra. Music for strings, percussion and celeste is something I've listened to and liked. There's lots of Bartok I don't know. Miraculous Mandarin, e.g. - and the Divertimento.
> 
> I've got a box set of the Nielsen symphonies, but don't remember them, I should probably include them in this latest orchestral trip. Honegger is another composer I've heard of but not listened to much.
> 
> Thanks.


You haven't mentioned Bartok's Violin Concerto no. 2 or the Viola Concerto.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Elgar 2 has some very Mahlerian moments, he's the English Mahler.


I hear more Strauss than Mahler in Elgar.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Here's a thought. In your original post you said "orchestral music seemed bombastic and cliched to my ears".

Why not pick something that may be as bombastic as you can imagine: perhaps some of the more overblown Strauss (Ein Heldenleben, for example?). Force yourself to listen to pieces like that for a while.

Then come down the bombast scale, and maybe you'll like some pieces which might have seemed way too bombastic if approached from the more astringent end. (I suspect that if you start from very austere chamber pieces then most orchestral works will have the danger of seeming too rich, so you first need to de-sensitise yourself to bombast by total immersion!)

For example, listen to Ein Heldenleben, and then go on to some Sibelius. I don't see how pieces like his 3rd or 6th symphonies could be regarded as bombastic, but even the incidental music to Pelleas & Melisande or his 5th symphony might seem like fresh water after Strauss' glass of port. (You might even like the Strauss!) Similarly VW 3 and 5 are low on bombast, and some of his later pieces create interesting sound worlds - his 8th symphony is just good fun. Ditto his Tuba Concerto. (You're always giving Haydn points in the various games, so you must like cheery music.)

Anyway, it's just a thought. So, has anyone got any suggestions for the most bombastic (yet well regarded) music possible to act as the starting point? Just listening to the Battlefield bit from Ein Heldenleben, and I am struggling to see that being outmatched in the bombast stakes (- much as I like some other Strauss).


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## julide (Jul 24, 2020)

I don't understand why grand,big and romantic is bad and overblown. Life is not always this stringent and austere modernist drama.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Given that you are a vastly experienced listener I reckon there is little point in suggesting too many of the usual suspects but I would recommend Nielsen's Symphonies - I always think the second is a decent starter but the later Symphonies, 5 & 6 are where he becomes a star for me. Holmboe for me has always been and probably will always be underrated (and under recorded) his Symphonic output and some other orchestral pieces and concertos are worthy of checking out - there's an excellent disc of brass concertos on BIS I'd recommend sampling.
Two other composers whose symphonic output I'd suggest investigating are Egon Wellesz and Humphery Serle.

Have fun.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

The OP was speaking about past impressions, but recently stated they had a break through with Mahler 6 and now intend to listen to all the Mahler symphonies, so I think recommending big, grand works is probably fine in this thread...I don't see any indication they were looking specifically for quiet, polite, or obscure symphonies. Just good ones to listen to.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Eclectic Al said:


> Here's a thought. In your original post you said "orchestral music seemed bombastic and cliched to my ears".
> 
> Why not pick something that may be as bombastic as you can imagine: perhaps some of the more overblown Strauss (Ein Heldenleben, for example?). Force yourself to listen to pieces like that for a while.
> 
> ...


I think it is a bridge too far with Strauss. I've tried before and feel certain, that is a closed book. Same with Havergal Brian.



julide said:


> I don't understand why grand,big and romantic is bad and overblown. Life is not always this stringent and austere modernist drama.


It isn't. But this thread is about my experience with listening to that kind of orchestral work, not a value judgment on them generally.



Malx said:


> Given that you are a vastly experienced listener I reckon there is little point in suggesting too many of the usual suspects but I would recommend Nielsen's Symphonies - I always think the second is a decent starter but the later Symphonies, 5 & 6 are where he becomes a star for me. Holmboe for me has always been and probably will always be underrated (and under recorded) his Symphonic output and some other orchestral pieces and concertos are worthy of checking out - there's an excellent disc of brass concertos on BIS I'd recommend sampling.
> Two other composers whose symphonic output I'd suggest investigating are Egon Wellesz and Humphery Serle.
> 
> Have fun.


I tried some Neilsen yesterday and have decided he's not for me. Wellesz, though, is possible since I am a fan of his string quartets. Searle, dunno. English 12-tone composer? Maybe. Someone no one's mentioned (I think) is Benjamin Frankel - I already enjoy his symphonies. So more like him would probably be in the ballpark.



tdc said:


> The OP was speaking about past impressions, but recently stated they had a break through with Mahler 6 and now intend to listen to all the Mahler symphonies, so I think recommending big, grand works is probably fine in this thread...I don't see any indication they were looking specifically for quiet, polite, or obscure symphonies. Just good ones to listen to.


This is true. Yesterday, the Mahler 3rd was also enjoyable, but the 2nd and 8th not for me, except in some places.

Thanks for all the suggestions.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Tippett: Second Symphony (Colin Davis/LSO)


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

MarkW said:


> Tippett: Second Symphony (Colin Davis/LSO)


Yes. Good piece.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> I tried some Neilsen yesterday and have decided he's not for me.


Some Nielsen, what's that?

For a "newbie" I would suggest the little suite for strings opus 1, and the wind quintet. After these the Aladdin suite and the Helios ouverture. The symphonies and concertos must wait until later, the most accessible of these being symphony no.2 and particularly no.3.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

premont said:


> Some Nielsen, what's that?
> 
> For a "newbie" I would suggest the little suite for strings opus 1, and the wind quintet. After these the Aladdin suite and the Helios ouverture. The symphonies and concertos must wait until later, the most accessible of these being symphony no.2 and particularly no.3.


1,3 ,4 and 5 for me. Very non-bombastic. A real original.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

premont said:


> Some Nielsen, what's that?
> 
> For a "newbie" I would suggest the little suite for strings opus 1, and the wind quintet. After these the Aladdin suite and the Helios ouverture. The symphonies and concertos must wait until later, the most accessible of these being symphony no.2 and particularly no.3.


I listened to some from a couple of his symphonies.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Have you 'looked into' _Spiegel_?


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