# Let´s create a Wagner Symphony!



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Let´s be a little playful and create a Wagner Symphony!

The symphony or symphonies should consist of orchestral numbers by Wagner. Also vocal numbers may be included should you want to point towards some Mahlerian solutions.

Not that you need reminding what symphonies are about, but it does no harm to create a form as an example for some solutions!


*Richard Wagner: Symphony* _(Nickname placed here)_

*Movement I *_-- One of the Overtures maybe?_
*Movement II *_-- One of the slower/atmospheric orchestral numbers?_
*Movement III* _-- One of the playful numbers to operate as a scherzo?_
*Movement IV* _-- Something majestic and conclusive to operate as the Grande Finale?_

This could also operate as a little competition. When there are enough of 'Wagner Symphonies', I will put up a vote.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I will begin of course!


*Richard Wagner: Symphony of The Ages*

I Tannhäuser Overture
II Parcifal: Prelude to Act 1
III Götterdämmerung: Siegfrieds Rheinfahrt
IV Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg Overture



*Richard Wagner: The War Symphony*

I Der Fliegende Hölländer Overture
II Tristan und Isolde Act 3 Prelude
III Der Ritt der Valküren
IV Götterdämmerung: Siegfrieds Trauermarch


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## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

What a great idea! I'm not a fan of Opera, but I love Wagner's orchestral excerpts and when I listen to them I often wish he had written symphonies. Here is mine:

I. Overture from Der Fliegende Hölländer 
II. Siegfried's Rhein Journey from Götterdämmerung
III. Ride of the Valkyries from Die Walküre
IV. Overture from Die Miestersinger von Nürnberg


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

How about just listening to Wagner's own symphonies? Or, one can argue that Lorin Maazel's Ring Without Words is a symphonic structure in four movements.


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## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

mbhaub said:


> How about just listening to Wagner's own symphonies? Or, one can argue that Lorin Maazel's Ring Without Words is a symphonic structure in four movements.


His symphonies do not rise to the level of his mature work. If he had focused on Symphonies, during the height of his abilities, they would surely be in the repertoire instead of ignored. Anyway I think this is a fun exercise.


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## Lisztianwagner (2 mo ago)

Agreed, it's a very fun challenge! Mine could be, with Scherzo and Adagio inverted:

I. Der Fliegende Holländer Ouverture
II. Lohengrin Act 3 Prelude
III. Tannhäuser Act 3 Prelude
IV-V. Siegfried Prelude Act 3 + Immolation scene from Götterdämmerung


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Scherzi Cat said:


> His symphonies do not rise to the level of his mature work.


... and the orchestral pieces from his operas do not rise to the symphonic level of the symphonies of his contemporaries, let alone the tonal architecture of a symphony in Wagner's time (final movement in the same key as the first one etc.).


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Let's not!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Interesting idea but how do any of the suggestions hold together or demonstrate a narrative arc as a symphony would? I think all we get is a suite of greatest hits.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Philidor said:


> ... and the orchestral pieces from his operas do not rise to the symphonic level of the symphonies of his contemporaries, let alone the tonal architecture of a symphony in Wagner's time (final movement in the same key as the first one etc.).





Neo Romanza said:


> Let's not!





Enthusiast said:


> Interesting idea but how do any of the suggestions hold together or demonstrate a narrative arc as a symphony would? I think all we get is a suite of greatest hits.


Don´t worry, be happy, feel free -- and create a Wagner symphony! It will make you feel good.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

A Ring symphony might be possible. A Wagner symphony is not. Those bits are widely called "bleeding chunks" for a reason.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Neo Romanza said:


> Let's not!


I heartily concur. 😎


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Scherzi Cat said:


> His symphonies do not rise to the level of his mature work. If he had focused on Symphonies, during the height of his abilities, they would surely be in the repertoire instead of ignored. Anyway I think this is a fun exercise.


 Actually, Wagner seems to have said he would have liked to resume writing symphonies after Parsifal , but unfortunately , he died in February 1883 , juts months after the premiere at Bayreuth . But the idea of mature symphonies by Wagner is certainly tantalizing . His early symphony in C major is not at all bad and.nothing for a budding 19 year old composer to be ashamed of., and deserves to be heard at concerts once in a while . Several recordings of it have been made , such as by Edo De Waart on Philips and. Otto Gerdes on DG . Not surprisingly, this early symphony is strongly influenced by Wagner .


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

superhorn said:


> Actually, Wagner seems to have said he would have liked to resume writing symphonies after Parsifal , but unfortunately , he died in February 1883 , juts months after the premiere at Bayreuth . But the idea of mature symphonies by Wagner is certainly tantalizing . His early symphony in C major is not at all bad and.nothing for a budding 19 year old composer to be ashamed of., and deserves to be heard at concerts once in a while . Several recordings of it have been made , such as by Edo De Waart on Philips and. Otto Gerdes on DG . Not surprisingly, this early symphony is strongly influenced by Wagner .


Strongly influenced by who?😎


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> Strongly influenced by who?😎


 OOPS. !!! I meant to say BEETHOVEN ! My bad ,


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

superhorn said:


> Not surprisingly, this early symphony is strongly influenced by Wagner .


This is also interesting-
_"During his studies with Weinlig he had tried to discover the secret of Mozart's fluency and lightness in solving difficult technical problems. In particular he tried to emulate the fugal finale of the great C major Symphony, 'magnificent, never surpassed', as he called it years later, and at eighteen he wrote a fugato as the finale of his C major Concert Overture, 'the very best that I could do, as I thought at the time, in honour of my new exemplar'." _
Wagner: A Biography, by Curt von Westernhagen, P. 82


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

If you're interested in "orchestral recordings of Wagner",








Orcherstral recordings of Wagner


There are a lot of threads discussing the best recordings of Wagner operas, but, what about orchestral recordings of the instrumental parts of those operas? Which ones are your favorites?




www.talkclassical.com






























www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTYE618lPD4&list=OLAK5uy_nQCsdWkam5LTinJFEccnGfChIrrShrV6I


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> I will begin of course!
> 
> 
> *Richard Wagner: Symphony of The Ages*
> ...



Due to the growing concern over the issue, I will actually listen to both of the above mentioned symphonies today. I am in the good hands of Otto Klemperer on this. The worrying playlists have already been created!

Later tonight I will let the audience know how I honestly think these 'symphonies' work. Let´s try to bear the weight on our shoulders until then. For this is, after all, a very serious issue.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Symphony of the Ages sure is epic! But it does not really work as a symphony. The different realms of the overtures diminish each other’s power. Especially Parcifal following Tannhäuser was a tremendously bad idea. And Meistersinger overture was ridiculous as grande finale.

So no — this symphony did not come even near the effectiveness of, say, Bruckner.

The War Symphony worked better but was still surprisingly MEH. 

So maybe this was better as an idea than an actual playlist. 

It feels SO GOOD to listen to Bruckner after those aimless all over the shop monsters! 

Still, I had much fun. So no regrets!


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