# Single Round Xmas Schubert Ave Maria: Ponselle, Flagstad, Anderson, McCormick



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I think I have assembled perhaps the ultimate Schubert's Ave Maria contest. I predict many of you will have trouble picking a winner as all are world class performances by some of the greatest singers of the 20th Century in three voice types. I prefer not to do 4 contestants but I have an excess of Xmas contests LOL To remind you that it is me creating this contest I spelled John McCormack's name wrong in the title, which of course I can't change LOL


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I like them all. Flagstad’s was the most flowing to my ears. Calm, sure singing. I don’t like the way she pronounces Marrria, but that’s it! 

Ponselle, it seems, is being very careful and makes odd slowdowns (is that in the score?) at the end of phrases. The voice is very beautiful. This is the most familiar to me, since it’s in Latin, music of my childhood. The violin interjections were most annoying, spoiling the simplicity of the piece. 

Marian Anderson, like Flagstad, sings it in the original German. I thought it was the most devout-sounding, but that’s just an impression. Gorgeous singing. 

They should’ve just let John MacCormack sing without the soupy arrangement- there’s not enough of his singing. We don’t need the pseudo-romantic stuff! At first I thought he was singing Celtic, but realized it was actually English!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> I like them all. Flagstad's was the most flowing to my ears. Calm, sure singing. I don't like the way she pronounces Marrria, but that's it!
> 
> Ponselle, it seems, is being very careful and makes odd slowdowns (is that in the score?) at the end of phrases. The voice is very beautiful. This is the most familiar to me, since it's in Latin, music of my childhood. The violin interjections were most annoying, spoiling the simplicity of the piece.
> 
> ...


I love the "makes odd slowdowns (is that in the score?) at the end of phrases" that Ponselle makes, which feel like emotional interpretations of the music to me. My music buddy Ellen thinks it a very old world Catholic feeling interpretation. This is one of those contests I have trouble picking a winner. My favorite arrangement of this by far is the one by Barbra Streisand, which is gloriously beautiful. She sings with herself and with a choir. I think Streisand's is by far the best pop version and she recorded it in her 60's still in a timeless gorgeous voice.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Considering only the vocal performances - which is what we're doing, I suppose - I prefer Ponselle. She brings the most variety, of both dynamics and tempo, to a song I wish had only two verses rather than three. Flagstad pours forth the majestic tone of her maturity (about age 60, I believe) to lovely effect, if in a slightly sentimental style with lots of her characteristic portamenti. She's slightly under pitch on a few notes, but it's fleeting. Anderson is very straightforward and reverent. McCormack sings in his precise Irish English and I can't understand most of it, which is fine because I sense that the translation is archaic and stilted. His accompaniment is pure MGM, but no worse than the appalling violin obbligato inflicted on Ponselle. What's with these people? Maybe three verses was too much for them too.

I do think the song would benefit from a slightly faster tempo, and indeed it does in my own favorite recording, Elisabeth Schumann's. Hers is provided with some soft chords played on strings, but at least they're Schubert's harmonies and not annoying non-Schubertian countermelodies:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Difficult to make a choice between these different styles and arrangements. Flagstad sings with straightforward piano accompaniment, but the glorious Rolls-Royce voice has perceptibly begun to age. Intonation is occasionally suspect too. Ponselle sings beautifully and senisitvely, but she has to put up with that awful violin obbligato. Anderson sings simply and devoutly, but she sounds as if she is singing in the middle of an empty aircraft hanger. McCormack has to contend with a rather awful Hollywood arrangement.

I think I liked Anderson's version best. I have a feeling the reverberance was added later. Her version would have sounded much better without it.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I love the "makes odd slowdowns (is that in the score?) at the end of phrases" that Ponselle makes, which feel like emotional interpretations of the music to me. My music buddy Ellen thinks it a very old world Catholic feeling interpretation. This is one of those contests I have trouble picking a winner. My favorite arrangement of this by far is the one by Barbra Streisand, which is gloriously beautiful. She sings with herself and with a choir. I think Streisand's is by far the best pop version and she recorded it in her 60's still in a timeless gorgeous voice.


Well if you're going to go all Hollywood, then I guess this is the way to do it. Actually Streisand's first Christmas album is one of my favourite Christmas delights. I love her madcap rendition of _Jingle Bells_ too.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well if you're going to go all Hollywood, then I guess this is the way to do it. Actually Streisand's first Christmas album is one of my favourite Christmas delights. I love her madcap rendition of _Jingle Bells_ too.


She had a cold when she recorded her first album and it added to her already marvelous chest voice, something rarely heard in pop female voices. My favorite is her version of "My favorite things". I also love the Voice of Firestone's Julie Andrews Christmas album. Julie wanted to sing opera but her voice was too light. It was perfect for recordings!!!!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Difficult to make a choice between these different styles and arrangements. Flagstad sings with straightforward piano accompaniment, but the glorious Rolls-Royce voice has perceptibly begun to age. Intonation is occasionally suspect too. Ponselle sings beautifully and senisitvely, but she has to put up with that awful violin obbligato. Anderson sings simply and devoutly, but she sounds as if she is singing in the middle of an empty aircraft hanger. McCormack has to contend with a rather awful Hollywood arrangement.
> 
> I think I liked Anderson's version best. I have a feeling the reverberance was added later. Her version would have sounded much better without it.


Flagstad made an earlier radio version from 38 but it sounded odd at times and I preferred the richer sound in her 50's.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Difficult to make a choice between these different styles and arrangements. Flagstad sings with straightforward piano accompaniment, but the glorious Rolls-Royce voice has perceptibly begun to age. Intonation is occasionally suspect too. Ponselle sings beautifully and senisitvely, but she has to put up with that awful violin obbligato. Anderson sings simply and devoutly, but she sounds as if she is singing in the middle of an empty aircraft hanger. McCormack has to contend with a rather awful Hollywood arrangement.
> 
> I think I liked Anderson's version best. I have a feeling the reverberance was added later. Her version would have sounded much better without it.


Flagstad made an earlier radio version but it sounded odd at times and I preferred the richer sound in her 50's. It is predictable to me that so far everyone voted for someone different! It is a hard contest to judge.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

So your mission for endless comparisons of singers has extended to other genres..


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Only Flagstad and Anderson sing _Schubert's_ Ave Maria, the text of which is a German translation of a poem from a work by Walter Scott (Part of The Lady of the Lake?)

Therefore Flagstad gets my vote, although Ponselle has the most luxurious sound, but I just can't take the shoe horned in latin text, which isn't even a translation of the wonderful Scott poem and so has little to nothing to do with Schubert's setting.

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

This one was easy for me. Two of the top greatest singers in the entire world sound exactly like two of the greatest singers in the world but what is missing from them that Marian Anderson has in spades is the pathos and simplicity of the song.
Ponselle has chosen her own tempo which was bothersome for me.

Forgetting the cornball background, this one is simply so beautiful it brings tears.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> This one was easy for me. Two of the top greatest singers in the entire world sound exactly like two of the greatest singers in the world but what is missing from them that Marian Anderson has in spades is the pathos and simplicity of the song.
> Ponselle has chosen her own tempo which was bothersome for me.
> 
> Forgetting the cornball background, this one is simply so beautiful it brings tears.


Beautiful! It has the added advantage of having my girl Sarita Montiel whom I adored as a teenager for her singing in those Spanish movíes (*La Violetera*, *Mi último tango *, *La reina del chantecler*, etc.), all mostly unknown in the U.S. I was slightly disappointed she didn't get to sing, but it would've been a clash of styles.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The Conte said:


> Only Flagstad and Anderson sing _Schubert's_ Ave Maria, the text of which is a German translation of a poem from a work by Walter Scott (Part of The Lady of the Lake?)
> 
> Therefore Flagstad gets my vote, although Ponselle has the most luxurious sound, but I just can't take the shoe horned in latin text, which isn't even a translation of the wonderful Scott poem and so has little to nothing to do with Schubert's setting.
> 
> N.


So it's a German translation or adaptation of a Walter Scott poem? I didn't know that. Is the poem called Ave Maria? Or Hail Mary?

*Never mind, I looked it up*.
Apparently, it is one of seven songs by Schubert based on *The Lady Of The Lake* by Walter Scott. It is entitled _Ellens Gesänge III _ and starts _Ave Maria_, but is not the prayer to the Virgin Mary we are familiar with in the Catholic world based on the Latin version of that prayer.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Only Flagstad and Anderson sing _Schubert's_ Ave Maria, the text of which is a German translation of a poem from a work by Walter Scott (Part of The Lady of the Lake?)
> 
> Therefore Flagstad gets my vote, although Ponselle has the most luxurious sound, but I just can't take the shoe horned in latin text, which isn't even a translation of the wonderful Scott poem and so has little to nothing to do with Schubert's setting.
> 
> N.


The Conte,I can definitely see your point of view but Ponselle would have grown up during the days of the Latin Mass and I'm sure she would have heard it sung in Latin all her life and it was the version closest to her Catholic heart. Translations were more in vogue back then and my sister sang all of her operas during her 15 year career in German, no matter the language of the composer.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Nina,I can definitely see your point of view but Ponselle would have grown up during the days of the Latin Mass and I'm sure she would have heard it sung in Latin all her life and it was the version closest to her Catholic heart. Translations were more in vogue back then and my sister sang all of her operas during her 15 year career in German, no matter the language of the composer.


Seattle:
I did not write the above post. The only thing I mentioned about Ponselle was the erratic tempos that bothered me.
I love the song done in Latin and Lanza's is the most reverent to me.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Nina,I can definitely see your point of view but Ponselle would have grown up during the days of the Latin Mass and I'm sure she would have heard it sung in Latin all her life and it was the version closest to her Catholic heart. Translations were more in vogue back then and my sister sang all of her operas during her 15 year career in German, no matter the language of the composer.


This responds to my comment. The issue is not that it is a translation, but rather it is a different text, a case where a different text has been matched to already existing music. Rossini, Donizetti and Bellini all did the same thing (taking an existing piece of their music and matching it to a new text) and we have all seen successful parodies where a known song is taken and then combined with new words (often about current political events). The problem I have with Schubert's Ave Maria in Latin is that the words don't even properly scan with Schubert's music. It has to be said that Ponselle's version manages to make it sound as if the text and music do go together though.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> This responds to my comment. The issue is not that it is a translation, but rather it is a different text, a case where a different text has been matched to already existing music. Rossini, Donizetti and Bellini all did the same thing (taking an existing piece of their music and matching it to a new text) and we have all seen successful parodies where a known song is taken and then combined with new words (often about current political events). The problem I have with Schubert's Ave Maria in Latin is that the words don't even properly scan with Schubert's music. It has to be said that Ponselle's version manages to make it sound as if the text and music do go together though.
> 
> N.


Clear as glass now. My ignorance about language even effects Christmas music contests, not just arias LOL Thanks buddy.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Conte said:


> This responds to my comment. The issue is not that it is a translation, but rather it is a different text, a case where a different text has been matched to already existing music. Rossini, Donizetti and Bellini all did the same thing (taking an existing piece of their music and matching it to a new text) and we have all seen successful parodies where a known song is taken and then combined with new words (often about current political events). The problem I have with Schubert's Ave Maria in Latin is that the words don't even properly scan with Schubert's music. It has to be said that Ponselle's version manages to make it sound as if the text and music do go together though.
> 
> N.


Agreed. I believe Lanza's rendition in Latin does too.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I would like to have participated in this poll but I can’t abide the song. Illa anima est!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

For a version of Schubert's Ave Maria sung in the style of German art song, I would go for the Christa Ludwig rendition:






N.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

The Conte said:


> For a version of Schubert's Ave Maria sung in the style of German art song, I would go for the Christa Ludwig rendition:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Christa Ludwig's rendition is also my favourite. Her early 60s recording (this one is from 1974) finds her in slightly better voice, but the differences are minimal and both interpretations are splendid.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Some of you are new and because I love it had a contest with different artists last year, including Marion Anderson, who was wonderful. I try to have new singers each year.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Deleted - Didn't realize the thread closed a year ago...


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