# Cheesy Music



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Post your favourite cheesy music here. Discuss cheesy music here.

Cheesy music according to me:






I love the music of Michael Nyman. A lot of it is brilliant and a lot of it is brilliantly cheesy. I have always thought of this one in particular (an excerpt from After Extra Time) to be him at his cheesiest.

Enjoy. :tiphat:


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Cheesy Music: most of late romantic music...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Humoresuqe no. 7. How can this _not_ be cheesy? :lol:


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## opus55 (Nov 9, 2010)

You beat me, ComposerOfAvantGarde 

Rach piano concertos are cheezy, generally speaking. I guess some Chopin works too. I use caution and not to consume too much cheezy music at once - my strategy to avoid getting sick of famous works.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I hate the section that starts at 23:34:






cheesy, pompous, ugh.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

I love all cheesy guitar music, as long as it's played by Kaori Muraji..

Kaori Muraji - 村治佳織 - Concierto de Aranjuez


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Cheese is delicious food ! So what's wrong with "cheesy" music ? 100 million mice can't be wrong !


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Not classical, but cheesy:






I don't even know why I like it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I have different words for this. Cheesy is one. Schmaltzy is another. & so too 'waffle.'

*Saint-Saens* can be like that (deliberately). The finales to his piano concertos mostly have Neopolitan tunes. It was considered vulgar by some at the time, and without substance. But you gotta have fun sometimes, not just these boring Germanic fugues and stuff :lol:

*Khachaturian* too. _Gayaneh_ is like Soviet agitprop cheesy. Recently read that he threw in the _Sabre Dance _into that on a whim. Has nothing to do with the plot (not that the plot is of great profundity anyway). Ironically, the thing he threw in last minute became his biggest hit, a 'lollipop,' but the whole ballet is pretty good.

Aussie rocker Tim Minchin has a song called 'Cheese' where he lists many types of cheese - in fake French accent - from camembert, to brie to frommage or whatever. He sings that he's addicted to cheese like a heroin addict or something. Buying all these exotic cheeses on the net. Its on his 'with orchestra' album so it counts FULLY as classical music (is that a 'cheesy' joke?).

Cheese has calcium so its good. But when melted, its too fatty. But melted cheese on toast, who doesn't like that, I ask? You've got to treat yourself sometimes. But not too often!


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

composerofavantgarde said:


> not classical, but cheesy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what the hell is that?!


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## opus55 (Nov 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Humoresuqe no. 7. How can this _not_ be cheesy? :lol:


I remember listening to it in elementary school music class.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

aleazk said:


> what the hell is that?!


Can only be Japanese


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## opus55 (Nov 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Not classical, but cheesy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:lol: Don't understand the lyrics but it's good upbeat music. Reminds me of Asian TV drama themes which are usually cheezy as Chicago deep dish pizza.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Almost all classical guitar music sounds cheesy to my American ears, and I like it.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

ataivarT, ottelogiR, rekcarctuN and many erom.

Nitram, derob


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Socrates said, if you like cheesy music, you ARE cheesy yourself.

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

This one is a winner!!!!!!!!!






Martin, dying


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Socrates said, if you like cheesy music, you ARE cheesy yourself.
> 
> Martin


My doctor said I need more vitamin D. So, more cheese.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> My doctor said I need more vitamin D. So, more cheese.


...or sunlight?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Sid James said:


> ...or sunlight?


I would pick cheese over sunlight any day. :tiphat:

Light can be artificial, processed cheese is disgusting.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I would pick cheese over sunlight any day. :tiphat:
> 
> Light can be artificial, processed cheese is disgusting.


Or eating cheese in the sunlight?

Appropriate music for that would be that optimistic bit at the end of Brahms' 1st symphony dispelling all that darkness. Dunno if it's cheesy (but the finale of Saint-Saens' 'Organ symphony' definitely IS!)...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

John Williams has produced his share of American cheese!


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I call this pie-throwing music, and you will see why. 






This is also some of Prokofiev's most cheesy writing for orchestra:





Particularly at 2:04 here below :lol:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Some 'cheese' from operetta (well, the whole genre can be called that, but anyway) :

*Lehar's Merry Widow *alone has stacks of it, from the famous waltz, to the 'Vilja Song' & quite a few duets between the lovers (two pairs in this one, I think?). HERE the 'Vilja Song' sung by late Australian soprano June Bronhill, in one of her most popular roles.

*Puccini's Mio babbino Caro *from _Gianni Schicchi _- pure schmaltz & an earworm to boot!




& for a high octane cheese or schmaltz fest, here's Andre Rieu's version:





*Korngold's* _Die Tote Stadt_, though no operetta, has many bits reminiscent of the genre. Here is the final aria from the end of the opera -


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

science said:


> My doctor said I need more vitamin D. So, more cheese.


LOL, big LOL


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I would pick cheese over sunlight any day. :tiphat:
> 
> Light can be artificial, processed cheese is disgusting.


LOL X 3!

Martin

P.S. have you tried a cabin for a tan... I did, my wife is against that, I don't care.

:tiphat:


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Achtung! Be careful! 

If you eat too much cheese, you'll become..... Cheesy!

And what about corn? Too much corn===> corny!!!!

Pinaply, banany, peachy... Dont have the same meaning, you can eat as much as you want! Piouh!

Martin, cheap philosopher


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I would pick cheese over sunlight any day. :tiphat:
> 
> Light can be artificial, processed cheese is disgusting.


LOL X 3!

Martin

P.S. have you tried a cabin for a tan... I did, my wife is against that, I don't care.

:tiphat:


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

When I first got into classical music, pretty much everything by Mozart sounded cheesy to me. And even some Beethoven, such as the Emperor concerto or the romances for violin.

It's curious, but I learned to appreciate these works and they don't sound cheesy to me any more.

Some things do, however:

Smetana, Vltava

Strauß sen., Radetzky March

Strauß jun., The Blue Danube

Tchaikovsky, Piano Concerto No. 1

Schubert, Impromptu D.935 No. 3


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Andreas said:


> When I first got into classical music, pretty much everything by Mozart sounded cheesy to me. And even some Beethoven, such as the Emperor concerto or the romances for violin.
> 
> It's curious, but I learned to appreciate these works and they don't sound cheesy to me any more.
> 
> ...


Except Smetana's Vitava, I agree with you. Some Mozart's still cheesy for me. Little nocturne music... Or whatever the title is in English


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

superhorn said:


> Cheese is delicious food ! So what's wrong with "cheesy" music ? 100 million mice can't be wrong !


That is 100 million constipated mice, each with sinus troubles.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ralph Vaughan-Williams 'The Lark Ascending,' is right up there, as is just about everything Tchaikovsky wrote....

Ed Add:

And then there is just about everything Puccini wrote, just about all that Rachmaninoff wrote.

Just about any and all show music in a moderate to slow tempo = Mega Cheese.

Both Sappy and Cheesy is any repertoire as played by Andre Rieu....


It boils down to me to anything which seems to have cheap sentiment.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I was thinking.... I always try to think... Sometimes is fruitless...

What makes a piece cheesy or corny.

- the piece is kind of easy or not, not easy to play necessarily but very catchy, easy to understand.
- Larmoyante, tearful
- no big development
- sometimes the problem is the exposure, Rachmaninov's second concerto is not that cheesy by itself, but it had so great exposure! OMG! In so many movies in the fifties...

Sometimes even Mozart's 40 is having too much exposure, it's becoming cheesy even if it is a Masterpiece.

I mentioned here four aspects... Can you think about something else? Do agree with me, why or why not?

Martin, still thinking or trying to (cogito ergo sum)


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I call this pie-throwing music, and you will see why.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Add Romeo and Julieta






Exposure! Too much exposure! It makes nice music become corny.

Martin


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Martin, to me the essence of "cheesiness" is simple emotion without reflection. If the emotion is complex or if there is a strong element of intellectual analysis, then I'd probably not agree that it's cheesy, even if I've heard it a lot of times.

To me, cliche is not exactly the same as cheesy. The opening bars of Beethoven's 5th are cliche at this point, but not cheesy; Shakespeare's sonnet "Shall I Compare Thee to a Summer's Day" and Matthew's Sermon on the Mount could be other examples. The thing that saves the "Ode to Joy" theme of Beethoven's 9th from cheesiness is its context: in context, it is a reflective, fully conscious affirmation of optimism and triumph; out of context it is just a very good hymn. The opening movement of the "Moonlight" sonata is cliche and could even be cheesy, but the sonata as a whole is not, as the motifs of that opening movement are given a brilliant workout. 

It is rare to find truly cheesy music celebrated in the classical music world. For that, you need pop. You take something like Celine Dion's "My Heart Will Go On," and you've got intensely powerful emotion without even the merest hint of an inkling of a moment of self-criticism. That is over the top cheesy. You take George Jones' "He Stopped Loving Her Today," and it's a different matter. That is a song that subtly mocks itself, that is fully aware of its emotional manipulativeness, and indulges in it with an ironic abandon. It says, "Look how well I can do this," and it also says, "Yup, far too well, and we all know it. Don't try this at home." 

To my ears, that kind of thing is in some of Chopin's best music too. It's not just heartrendingly beautiful: it is self-consciously so. It's not the the unfiltered expression of Chopin's own pathos, it's Chopin saying, "Look how well I can do pathos; I know you dig this, and you know I know it. So eat it up."

My opinions, anyway.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

science said:


> Martin, to me the essence of "cheesiness" is simple emotion without reflection. If the emotion is complex or if there is a strong element of intellectual analysis, then I'd probably not agree that it's cheesy, even if I've heard it a lot of times.
> 
> To me, cliche is not exactly the same as cheesy. The opening bars of Beethoven's 5th are cliche at this point, but not cheesy; Shakespeare's sonnet "Shall I Compare Thee to a Summer's Day" and Matthew's Sermon on the Mount could be other examples. The thing that saves the "Ode to Joy" theme of Beethoven's 9th from cheesiness is its context: in context, it is a reflective, fully conscious affirmation of optimism and triumph; out of context it is just a very good hymn. The opening movement of the "Moonlight" sonata is cliche and could even be cheesy, but the sonata as a whole is not, as the motifs of that opening movement are given a brilliant workout.
> 
> ...


Your opinion is very interesting to me. I am not sure about the word cliché, to be honest with you. But exposure for me is the main reason of cheesiness.

My hypotheses in this matter are:

Few people are musically educated
When these people accept and like very much a piece
When the exposure of the piece increases due to these factors...

Then a piece become cheesy?..no! Cliché would be the right word. THANK YOU!!!

In that sens, even a masterpiece as Beethoven's fifth's beginning (in Spanish we have a joke... Parapapa. For my father), Mozart most popular "tunes" became undoubtedly cliché...
I learned the word cliché because of you, I guess, sometimes I thought they had the same meaning...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliché

I 'm glad you taught me something, it doesn't happen to me very often...

Martin


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Many classical ones to choose from but when thinking of the 'pop' end of the market most cheesy moments for me usually feature a really gloopy or lame sax solo - Chanson D'Amour by Manhattan Transfer (but I file that song under post-modern irony), I Can't Go For That by Hall & Oates, Arthur's Theme by Christopher Cross, other assorted 80s guff by the likes of Wham, Spandau Ballet and Simply Red, various theme tunes like the hideous Poirot and last, but by no means least, absolutely ANYTHING by the dreaded Kenny G.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> Many classical ones to choose from but when thinking of the 'pop' end of the market most cheesy moments for me usually feature a really gloopy or lame sax solo - Chanson D'Amour by Manhattan Transfer (but I file that song under post-modern irony), I Can't Go For That by Hall & Oates, Arthur's Theme by Christopher Cross, other assorted 80s guff by the likes of Wham, Spandau Ballet and Simply Red, various theme tunes like the hideous Poirot and last, but by no means least, absolutely ANYTHING by the dreaded Kenny G.


I don't like.

Sorry, there is just a like option on the bottom, not dislike.

Martin


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I just had some cheese , and am waiting by the moushole,like the cat , with baited breath for the next response here !


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> What makes a piece cheesy or corny.
> 
> - the piece is kind of easy or not, not easy to play necessarily but very catchy, easy to understand.
> - Larmoyante, tearful
> ...


I don't think we are all agreeing on what _cheesy _means. This is nearer to it for me:

This is an important word and nobody has it right yet. What it means is: Trying too hard, unsubtle, and inauthentic.
Specifically that which is unsubtle or inauthentic in its way of trying to elicit a certain response from a viewer, listener, audience, etc. Celine Dion is cheesy because her lyrics, timbre, key changes, and swelling orchestral accompaniment telegraph 'i want you to be moved' instead of moving you.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> I don't think we are all agreeing on what _cheesy _means. This is nearer to it for me:
> M
> This is an important word and nobody has it right yet. What it means is: Trying too hard, unsubtle, and inauthentic.
> Specifically that which is unsubtle or inauthentic in its way of trying to elicit a certain response from a viewer, listener, audience, etc. Celine Dion is cheesy because her lyrics, timbre, key changes, and swelling orchestral accompaniment telegraph 'i want you to be moved' instead of moving you.


A question of language:

I am sure you said it MUCH better than me, because English is your mother tongue and not mine. I learned one hour ago the real meaning of the word CLICHÉ, and In many cases is rather this word that we should use. Your ideas are absolutely right. Thank you for your very clear explanation.

Sincerely,

Martin


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> A question of language:
> 
> I am sure you said it MUCH better than me, because English is your mother tongue and not mine. I learned one hour ago the real meaning of the word CLICHÉ, and In many cases is rather this word that we should use. Your ideas are absolutely right. Thank you for your very clear explanation.


No, please.. it was quotation from an online dicitonary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cheesy

As for cliche, do you mean "French, literally, printer's stereotype, from past participle of _clicher _to stereotype, of imitative origin" (Merriam Webster) This is the meaning it has/had in German, at least when I worked in the print shop of the _Westfaelischer Anzeiger._


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> No, please.. it was quotation from an online dicitonary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cheesy
> 
> As for cliche, do you mean "French, literally, printer's stereotype, from past participle of _clicher _to stereotype, of imitative origin" (Merriam Webster) This is the meaning it has/had in German, at least when I worked in the print shop of the _Westfaelischer Anzeiger._


That is correct. Sometimes, I should have used the word cliché instead of cheesy. Refering about music too much "used", example piano concerto n.2 by Rachmaninov.

Personally, I found clearer this definition, of course is not mine:

A cliché or cliche (UK /ˈkliːʃeɪ/ or US /klɪˈʃeɪ/) is an expression, idea, or element of an artistic work which has been overused to the point of losing its original meaning or effect, especially when at some earlier time it was considered meaningful or novel. In phraseology, the term has taken on a more technical meaning, referring to any expression imposed by conventionalized linguistic usage. The term is frequently used in modern culture for an action or idea which is expected or predictable, based on a prior event. Typically a pejorative, "clichés" are not always false or inaccurate; a cliché may or may not be true.[1] Some are stereotypes, but some are simply truisms and facts.[2] Clichés are often employed for comic effect, typically in fiction.

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Confusing stuff.

About cheesy or corny

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cheesy

About cliché

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Cliche

Those words have pretty similar meaning. I thought I was misusing cheesy, I wasn't.

Martin... Not so,confused now

Corny similar to cheesy, similar to cliché.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I really like a lot of music mentioned in this thread. Some people may have overexposed themselves to it, but that isn't the fault of the music.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I think Tchaikovsky was actually a talking cheese. _*Cheesekovsky*_, I call him.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

bigshot said:


> I really like a lot of music mentioned in this thread. Some people may have overexposed themselves to it, but that isn't the fault of the music.


Listen to Socrates


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sid James said:


> I have different words for this. Cheesy is one. Schmaltzy is another. & so too 'waffle.'
> 
> *Saint-Saens* can be like that (deliberately). The finales to his piano concertos mostly have Neopolitan tunes. It was considered vulgar by some at the time, and without substance. But you gotta have fun sometimes, not just these boring Germanic fugues and stuff :lol:
> 
> ...


Schmaltz = chicken fat, a working class snack. Often, it was spread on bread or toast  So Schmaltz is greasy / fatty.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

aleazk said:


> I think Tchaikovsky was actually a talking cheese. _*Cheesekovsky*_, I call him.


But this is NOT a joke, in Russia, they call hIm Tchikovsky, not Tchaikovsky even if they write it Tchaikovsky

Чайковский

Я очень люблю чайкоскова

Мартин


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> ... What makes a piece cheesy or corny.


It boils down to me to anything which seems to have cheap sentiment.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

bigshot said:


> I really like a lot of music mentioned in this thread. Some people may have overexposed themselves to it, but that isn't the fault of the music.


Yes, absolutely right!


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

my dictionary says shoddy or of poor quality.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

LordBlackudder said:


> my dictionary says shoddy or of poor quality.


I insist about exposure... Too much exposure can make banal every music?
Rachmaninov's second piano concerto is beautiful per se. We have listened to this in so many movies that it became corny. I can't listen to it anymore, it is the same damned feeling I have with Traviata! I listened to it every day for two years. See my story below

http://www.talkclassical.com/20054-new-me-traviata-2.html

Martin


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

To be honest, I miss the "pops". It made classical music a fun part of everyday life. I wish I knew more about British light classical too.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Cheesy: J Strauss 1 and 2


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Even though I love it, this:






Not sure what is meant by "cheap sentiment" other than saying it is "too accessible" which seems awfully snobbish to me. I agree that overexposure is a problem, but I tend to get past all my previous opinions once I get to know the music in more detail than the few bars that are repeated endlessly in movies or in advertisements. If you had told me five years ago that I would be listening to operas, I would have laughed at you, but now I _get_ opera and realise that my impressions were based mostly or incorrect assumptions.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Cheesy: J Strauss 1 and 2


I quite like The Blue Danube and some others, but Strauss churned out so many polkas and waltzes that his compositions seem quite formulaic. I am torn between whether I like his music or dislike him as a composer because of his lack of flexibility.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

crmoorhead said:


> Even though I love it, this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree, this musique is stupid, mediocre, even if usually I like Shostakovich. I read two biographies about him, one was written by a guy who admires him deeple, the other one is serious. The guy was part of the communist party after Stalin's death. He composed demagogic music and that is why he was so succesful. You have two Shostakoviches here, the intellectual making great music, the other making music Stalin's style. I.e. very very popular... Like Mozart was told to do... The power of the mass.

Martin


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

The cheesy, pompous gaudiness is why I LOVE Romantic-era music. ut:


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

crmoorhead said:


> I quite like The Blue Danube and some others, but Strauss churned out so many polkas and waltzes that his compositions seem quite formulaic. I am torn between whether I like his music or dislike him as a composer because of his lack of flexibility.


Listen to Socrates


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

dmg said:


> The cheesy, pompous gaudiness is why I LOVE Romantic-era music. ut:


You too.

Martin


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

Well, I hate to label any classical piece as "cheesy", but perhaps this one fits the definition:

(Please forgive!)


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Stupid bug. Ignore this post.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

powerbooks said:


> Well, I hate to label any classical piece as "cheesy", but perhaps this one fits the definition:
> 
> (Please forgive!)


My like was for your idea, not for the music. Awful indeed. The corniest ever!

Martin


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I agree, this musique is stupid, mediocre, even if usually I like Shostakovich. I read two biographies about him, one was written by a guy who admires him deeple, the other one is serious. The guy was part of the communist party after Stalin's death. He composed demagogic music and that is why he was so succesful. You have two Shostakoviches here, the intellectual making great music, the other making music Stalin's style. I.e. very very popular... Like Mozart was told to do... The power of the mass.


I think that most composers have that, however. One side that tells them that they must have integrity and devote time to serious compositions and another that writes catchy tunes that will make them money and popularity rather than respect. Both, however, require a good bit of skill. Verdi wrote many catchy tunes, but also a lot of beautiful music with wonderful harmonies and expression. Brahms wrote the Hungarian Dances, the most popular of which are very cheesy indeed. Rossini, Liszt, Mozart, Prokofiev, Tchaikovsky etc, all did it, but at the same time there were many people aiming to be successful in that way that failed utterly.

The Shostakovich piece confuses me because it reminds me of TV theme tunes or music played on a jolly old bandstand. I recently watched a documentary about Shostakovich and there was a guy telling a story about his (Shostakovich's) advice to never write film music (except if you have no money, then write film music) and it isn't surprising that most of the Variety Suite is from films or similar sources. Nonetheless, it is the kind of thing I might consider suggesting to people who know nothing about classical to start getting them more interested. It delivers quickly and in a way they are accustomed to.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

crmoorhead said:


> I think that most composers have that, however. One side that tells them that they must have integrity and devote time to serious compositions and another that writes catchy tunes that will make them money and popularity rather than respect. Both, however, require a good bit of skill. Verdi wrote many catchy tunes, but also a lot of beautiful music with wonderful harmonies and expression. Brahms wrote the Hungarian Dances, the most popular of which are very cheesy indeed. Rossini, Liszt, Mozart, Prokofiev, Tchaikovsky etc, all did it, but at the same time there were many people aiming to be successful in that way that failed utterly.
> 
> The Shostakovich piece confuses me because it reminds me of TV theme tunes or music played on a jolly old bandstand. I recently watched a documentary about Shostakovich and there was a guy telling a story about his (Shostakovich's) advice to never write film music (except if you have no money, then write film music) and it isn't surprising that most of the Variety Suite is from films or similar sources.


Bravo! I want to give you a "like" and I couldn't find any? Malheur! Merde!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Sometimes, cheesy is even better. She's by far(t) my favourite singer.






Enjoy!

Martin


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Schubert cheesiest composition played with an orchestra!!! waaaaaahmmmmm...


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Played by the cheesiest pianist of all time!!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I saw this ballet in Moscow, Khachaturian was in the theatre. This is so....charming and so cor...






Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

aleazk said:


> I think Tchaikovsky was actually a talking cheese. _*Cheesekovsky*_, I call him.


Personally, I think that 1812 overture and Marche slave are cheesy. Not many think that. I DO NOT MIND.

Martin


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

crmoorhead said:


> I quite like The Blue Danube and some others, but Strauss churned out so many polkas and waltzes that his compositions seem quite formulaic. I am torn between whether I like his music or dislike him as a composer because of his lack of flexibility.





crmoorhead said:


> ...Brahms wrote the Hungarian Dances, the most popular of which are very cheesy indeed. Rossini, Liszt, Mozart, Prokofiev, Tchaikovsky etc, all did it, but at the same time there were many people aiming to be successful in that way that failed utterly.


Replying to both those comments of yours above, cmoorhead, composers have to put food on the table like the rest of us. The thing about J. Strauss II churning out waltzes and stuff, the same criticism can be levelled at any number of the wigs. But they are sacred cows and a lot of their music - eg. for church purposes - is 'serious' so beyond reproach, compared to the humble waltz (which J. Strauss II elevated to high art, btw).

& re Brahms, its well known how he admired Strauss' _Blue Danube Waltz_. They where actually friends, and Strauss also went to premieres of Bruckner's symphonies (being a supporter, not a critic of them as far as I know). But Brahms must have thought the _Hungarian Dances _to be lowbrow, since he did not originally assign an opus number to them. They were his most popular works in his lifetime, but really they are nothing much more than transcriptions of popular songs, both composed and traditional, played by gypsy bands in Hungary, a place which Brahms loved.



> The Shostakovich piece confuses me because it reminds me of TV theme tunes or music played on a jolly old bandstand. I recently watched a documentary about Shostakovich and there was a guy telling a story about his (Shostakovich's) advice to never write film music (except if you have no money, then write film music) and it isn't surprising that most of the Variety Suite is from films or similar sources. Nonetheless, it is the kind of thing I might consider suggesting to people who know nothing about classical to start getting them more interested. It delivers quickly and in a way they are accustomed to.


Shostakovich and other Soviet era composers, eg. Schnittke, Gubaidulina, Arvo Part, where forced to make their 'bread and butter' by doing film scores. They didn't get much big commissions, probably due to their style of music but also their politics, they were not favourites of the regime (eg. unlike the Stalinist Khrennikov).

The other thing is that Andre Rieu's biggest hit in his early days was his arrangement of Shosty's '2nd waltz.' So it has been overexposed in Europe especially through Rieu. Here it's not as well known, so not so much of an earworm for me.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I wouldn't dismiss so much music so casually. I'm sorry if you've been chained in a room and forced to listen to it repeatedly (not my experience) but prior to dismissing something like the waltz, I would feel I have to understand why it was ever valued.

I had an experience like that with Goethe's _Faust_. First time I read it, I just couldn't figure out why it had ever been so famous. What did people find in it that gripped them, enchanted them, awed them so much? Later readings have helped a bit, but to the degree that I've failed to appreciate _Faust_, the failure is mine, not Goethe's. If the monumental nature of epic poetry renders the comparison unfair in some people's eyes, I could use Omar Khayyam's quatrains ("Rubaiyat") or Basho's haiku.

The old pond -
A frog leaps in,
And a splash.

It's easy to say, this is the kind of thing any twelve year old can do. We can do that with the I Ching, or, say, Jackson Pollack's art. Or perhaps with anything ancient. "What's so great about the Venus of Willendorf? Any eighth grader with clay could make something like that!"

Maybe that attitude is correct, but I personally don't feel safe assuming it. But at some point I might have the confidence to say, ok, I've understood this. And then I can criticize it with confidence too.

Just a few months ago I got the Beach Boys' album _Pet Sounds_, just because it's so famous and I didn't care for the Beach Boys that much and I wanted to see what the big deal was. I was not at all impressed the first time I listened to it. Sure, I knew many of the songs already. Perhaps too well. However, I had a really good experience that put it in perspective - my friend had some songs recorded by Brian Wilson's father, basically in the Beach Boys' style, and we listened to them, and then we listened to a few of the songs from _Pet Sounds_ immediately afterwards. The genius and creativity and _craftsmanship_ of, say, "Sloop John B" jumped out. It was like a light turned on for me - I could hear, perhaps, a little of what musicians like John Lennon heard when they declared _Pet Sounds_ a masterpiece. Since then I've listened to the album one more time beginning to end, and am now very impressed by it (musically - I honestly couldn't claim to know the words to any of the songs).

I've had so many experiences like that with art - with _The Catcher in the Rye_, with _The Great Gatsby_, with David's _Death of Socrates_, with Kierkegaard's _The Sickness Unto Death_, with Shakespeare's _Romeo and Juliet_ and _King Lear_ and so on, with Vivaldi's _The Four Seasons_. I've become very hesitant to dismiss things prematurely.

On the other hand, some things just suck. I cannot believe people take Coelho's _The Alchemist_ seriously. Every time I read it, it gets worse.

Within the past month I've heard for the first time Rage Against the Machine's album _The Battle of Los Angeles_, Cesaria Evora's album _Café Atlantico_, _The Tony Bennett / Bill Evans Album_, Vask's Symphony #2, Grieg's Cello Sonata, Rubinstein's Piano Concerto #4, Miles Davis' _Get Up With It_, Champion Jack Dupree's _Blues from the Gutter_, Debussy's Fantasy for Piano and Orchestra, Reger's Cello Sonatas, Maw's Violin Concerto, Ravi Shankar and Philip Glass's album _Passages_, Bonnie 'Prince' Billy's _I See a Darkness_, Enescu's symphonies - and none of these things have made a very strong positive impression on me.

In the same time period I've heard other music that has made a very strong impression on me, but I list the ones that haven't. Some of those things might just not be very good. But I'm not willing to say so yet. Well, I've gone off topic. This is a little different than having heard something so many times without having appreciated it. Anyway, my actual point is that I personally am not comfortable when I haven't appreciated something widely recognized as a masterpiece - the failure, I am sure, is more likely in me than in the art. I have to know I'm on pretty solid ground before I confidently declare, "Actually, this is just not very good art."


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

One of the problems with Goethe's _Faust_ is that Goethe as a whole has not been well translated. Perhaps he is even impossible to translated. I am always amazed that Rilke and Holderlin resonate so well... but then both were blessed with marvelous translations. Goethe truly impressed me some few years out of when I sat down with a good English-German dictionary, some commentary, and my high-school German and actually worked my way through the original. Unfortunately, I didn't keep up with the German and couldn't possibly read the book today... yet still I am greatly enamored of any number of his shorter poems that I can still read:

*Wandrers Nachtlied II*

_Über allen Gipfeln
Ist Ruh,
In allen Wipfeln
Spürest du
Kaum einen Hauch;
Die Vögelein schweigen im Walde.
Warte nur, balde
Ruhest du auch._

*Gretchen am Spinnrade*

_Meine Ruh' ist hin,
Mein Herz ist schwer,
Ich finde sie nimmer
Und nimmermehr.

Wo ich ihn nicht hab
Ist mir das Grab,
Die ganze Welt
Ist mir vergällt.

Mein armer Kopf
Ist mir verrückt,
Mein armer Sinn
Ist mir zerstückt.

Meine Ruh' ist hin,
Mein Herz ist schwer,
Ich finde sie nimmer
Und nimmermehr.

Nach ihm nur schau ich
Zum Fenster hinaus,
Nach ihm nur geh ich
Aus dem Haus.

Sein hoher Gang,
Sein' edle Gestalt,
Seine Mundes Lächeln,
Seiner Augen Gewalt,

Und seiner Rede
Zauberfluß,
Sein Händedruck,
Und ach, sein Kuß!

Meine Ruh' ist hin,
Mein Herz ist schwer,
Ich finde sie nimmer
Und nimmermehr.

Mein Busen drängt sich
Nach ihm hin.
Ach! dürft ich fassen
Und halten ihn,

Und küssen ihn,
So wie ich wollt,
An seinen Küssen
Vergehen sollt!_

*Der Erlkönig*

_Wer reitet so spät durch Nacht und Wind?
Es ist der Vater mit seinem Kind;
Er hat den Knaben wohl in dem Arm,
Er faßt ihn sicher, er hält ihn warm.

"Mein Sohn, was birgst du so bang dein Gesicht?" -
"Siehst, Vater, du den Erlkönig nicht?
Den Erlenkönig mit Kron und Schweif?" -
"Mein Sohn, es ist ein Nebelstreif."

"Du liebes Kind, komm, geh mit mir!
Gar schöne Spiele spiel' ich mit dir;
Manch' bunte Blumen sind an dem Strand,
Meine Mutter hat manch gülden Gewand." -

"Mein Vater, mein Vater, und hörest du nicht,
Was Erlenkönig mir leise verspricht?" -
"Sei ruhig, bleibe ruhig, mein Kind;
In dürren Blättern säuselt der Wind." -

"Willst, feiner Knabe, du mit mir gehen?
Meine Töchter sollen dich warten schön;
Meine Töchter führen den nächtlichen Reihn,
Und wiegen und tanzen und singen dich ein." -

"Mein Vater, mein Vater, und siehst du nicht dort
Erlkönigs Töchter am düstern Ort?" -
"Mein Sohn, mein Sohn, ich seh es genau:
Es scheinen die alten Weiden so grau. -"

"Ich liebe dich, mich reizt deine schöne Gestalt;
Und bist du nicht willig, so brauch ich Gewalt." -
"Mein Vater, mein Vater, jetzt faßt er mich an!
Erlkönig hat mir ein Leids getan!" -

Dem Vater grauset's, er reitet geschwind,
Er hält in Armen das ächzende Kind,
Erreicht den Hof mit Müh' und Not;
In seinen Armen das Kind war tot._

Of course I must credit Schubert for helping to illuminate so many of Goethe's poems.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

science said:


> I wouldn't dismiss so much music so casually. I'm sorry if you've been chained in a room and forced to listen to it repeatedly (not my experience) but prior to dismissing something like the waltz, I would feel I have to understand why it was ever valued.


I wouldn't dismiss the music, especially since some of it is very good. I take the opinion that, if I ever get a tune stuck in my head, I just go with it. Most people get infuriated when that happens, but I tend to think it is evidence of a good melody and end up going home to listen to whatever it might be. Good melodies can be anywhere - Brahm's Hungarian Dance No. 5 has a great melody, as do the Shosty pieces I posted above. My usual humming tunes are mostly from operas and fairly well known, but it can sometimes be Neil Diamond or Katie Perry or whatever I have heard snippets of on the radio or wherever. My other great musical loves are rock and roll, rockabilly and rhythm and blues from the fifties and early sixties. The lyrics are mostly awful, but there is something in the music that has always clicked with me. And, of course, the Beach Boys have always been a favourite of mine. 

I've come to accept, however, that classical music doesn't require a melody and, in fact, much of the best stuff doesn't have a tune you can't hum along to easily. That could be because of polyphony or because of something else. But wouldn't a long symphony of 45 mins+ be rather exhaustive if it were one catchy tune after another? The pay-off is found elsewhere, IMO, in the development of themes, in complex harmonies, orchestral colour, in the contrasting nature of the movements and other things. Debussy's strength, for example, does not lie in melody.

Anyway, back to waltzes. As enjoyable as some of J Strauss II's music can be, I still have to be in the mood for a waltz or polka when listening to him. Sometimes I am, but I cannot go listen to any of his symphonies or concertos or solo music because he didn't write any that I am aware of. He wrote 400+ opus numbers which are predominantly waltzes, marches or polkas but how many of these have survived to the present day? He perfected them, but to the exclusion of all else, and one would assume that quite a few of his opus are nothing special. History has sifted through his large body of work and preserved the best. If Bach had only written his cantatas and nothing else, I would probably have a similar criticism. Vivaldi often gets criticised for the same reason.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Agreed there generally cmoorhead, but don't forget J. Strauss II's operettas, I think he did around a dozen, and his first one _Die Fledermaus_ has been in the repertoire ever since. Ironically, it was a potential competitor in that genre, Offenbach, who suggested Strauss try his hand at operetta. But maybe they were not really competitors, Offenbach doing it in French and Strauss in German - well, originally, as these things have since been translated.

To add to what you say, dig deep enough and the most seemingly simple things have sophistication and content beyond the superficial. Eg. Strauss was a master of theme and variations form, which his waltzes basically are, much admired by the likes of Brahms & Bruckner - eg. contemporaries - but also the Viennese atonalists, all of whom arranged chamber versions of his waltzes. Listen to virtually any piece by Berg and you will find waltzes in there somewhere, fragmentary though they may be. These guys where true Viennese after all...


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I have nothing against J. Strauss... Even Tchaikovsky had MANY corny things. I love Oscar Straus though...






This, with just the piano seems a bit cheesy

Martin


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Sid James said:


> ^^Agreed there generally cmoorhead, but don't forget J. Strauss II's operettas, I think he did around a dozen, and his first one _Die Fledermaus_ has been in the repertoire ever since. Ironically, it was a potential competitor in that genre, Offenbach, who suggested Strauss try his hand at operetta. But maybe they were not really competitors, Offenbach doing it in French and Strauss in German - well, originally, as these things have since been translated.
> 
> To add to what you say, dig deep enough and the most seemingly simple things have sophistication and content beyond the superficial. Eg. Strauss was a master of theme and variations form, which his waltzes basically are, much admired by the likes of Brahms & Bruckner - eg. contemporaries - but also the Viennese atonalists, all of whom arranged chamber versions of his waltzes. Listen to virtually any piece by Berg and you will find waltzes in there somewhere, fragmentary though they may be. These guys where true Viennese after all...


I deliberately omitted the operettas. Die Fledermaus is in the repertoire, I know, but it's a strange one. As for the rest, I looked around for copies of some of them a while back and there are only two or three that can be purchased easily and those don't have a following outside of Austria. In contrast, there is still a large amount of Offenbach available on disc. I can't really have a firm opinion based on that, but it did imply to me that they weren't all that good. Then again, I am still undecided on the operetta genre in general.

About Berg and the Second Viennese School, THAT I did NOT know.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

[

About Berg and the Second Viennese School, THAT I did NOT know. [/QUOTE]

?????? Was is das?

Martin


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Well *cmoorhead*, it took me a while to hear waltzes in Berg's music (outside _Wozzeck_, where the tavern scene is a dead giveaway, they're dancing to waltz tunes, but they are pretty crazy sounding compared to 'normal' waltzes). However, now I can 'hear' waltzes in all manner of Berg's things, from his _Piano Sonata _to the _Chamber Concerto _and _Violin Concerto _and so on. I can go on, but there used to be a Deutsche Grammophon recording of the Viennese atonalists arrangments of J. Strauss II, can't find it after a quick search, but I did find THIS cd. Maybe there's stuff on youtube as well.

As for his operettas, Naxos has released a fair few, incl. some more obscure ones. I have Jabuka (The Apple Harvest) and it is a fun listen, different from _Fledermaus _in that there's more choral emphasis and also its through written without much breaks, not a numbers type work (perhaps influence of Wagner there?) and it definitely has influence of Smetana, whose _BArtered Bride _Strauss admired, and it has many tunes that can be described as 'Slavonic.'


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