# Which is more important - the sound or the visuals of a performance ?



## Guest (Aug 20, 2013)

According to this article, you are more likely to pick the winners of a music competition by turning off the sound and just watching the video!!

http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/08/the-sound-of-music-is-irrelevant/

I suppose we should take comfort from the fact that judging classical music may be slightly less arbitrary than judging wines.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

The point to this is simple and rather like going for a job interview.
From the moment you make your entry all eyes are on you and although you may have all the credentials and expertise,it's the person who makes the best impression who will win the day usually.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

All going to demonstrate the incompetence of the judges, eh?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> All going to demonstrate the incompetence of the judges, eh?


No,the point is that two contestants may be equal,but the one with presence will probably win.
As proved by the opening article.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> No,the point is that two contestants may be equal,but the one with presence will probably win.
> As proved by the opening article.


So what if they are not quite equal - unequal enough for a competent judge to hear the difference - and the one with 'presence' is the inferior musician?


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

*The Look of Music - The Importance of the Visual Element in Performance*

When it comes to classical music competitions, one could be forgiven for thinking how well someone plays is the single most important factor.

New research conducted by a recent Harvard graduate, however, suggests otherwise.

In a study by Chia-Jung Tsay, who last year earned a Ph.D. in organizational behavior with a secondary Ph.D. field in music, nearly all participants - including highly trained musicians - were better able to identify the winners of competitions by watching silent video clips than by listening to audio recordings. The work was described in a paper published this month in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

"It's a very counterintuitive finding - there have been some interesting reactions from musicians," Tsay said. "What this suggests is that there may be a way that visual information is prioritized over information from other modalities. In this case, it suggests that the visual trumps the audio, even in a setting where audio information should matter much more."

Tsay herself has performed at Carnegie Hall and Lincoln Center, and said it was her experience in classical music competitions that piqued her interest in visual vs. audio information.

"For the last two decades, I've taken part in various competitions," she said. "Through this experience, I found that depending on what type of evaluations were used - whether it was live rounds or audio recordings that had to be submitted - the results might vary widely. My intuition was that there was a much more sophisticated role for visual information."

Though she ultimately performed seven experiments as part of the study, Tsay's research began close to home - with videos of her own performances from youth competitions.

"I was curious, if I gave people just video recordings or just audio recordings, or video with audio, which would allow them to identify the actual winners?" she said. "Even from the first experiments, it seemed clear visual information can have a lot of impact."

Tsay was surprised to find that the effect held up even in high-level international competitions, which often feature not only top performers, but also highly trained musicians as judges.

To conduct the study, Tsay recruited volunteers who received either video clips without sound, audio clips, or video clips that included sound. After viewing the short clips, participants were asked to identify the winners.

"What I found was that people had a lower chance of identifying the eventual winner if they only listened to the sound," Tsay said. "People who just had the video - even without the sound - had surprisingly high rates of selecting the actual winner. Even with professional musicians, who are trained to use sound, and who have both expertise and experience, it appeared that the visual information was overriding the sound."

Because musical differences between two top performers are often slight, viewers can more easily pick up on visual cues they associate with high-quality performance, Tsay believes. Factors such as a performer's engagement, passion, and energy resonate.

"Those aspects are more closely tied to performance, or what we think of as performance, that allow the judges to distinguish between two performances," Tsay said. "I wouldn't expect musical novices to be able to use auditory information the same way a trained musician with 20 years of experience would, but when I ran the studies with professional musicians - people who perform as part of orchestras, or who teach at music conservatories - and I saw the same result, that was when I realized that regardless of the amount of experience, people still seem to rely on visual information."

While orchestras have in recent years turned to blind auditions in an effort to blunt factors such as gender and race, it's doubtful the impact of visual information could ever be entirely eliminated from the process, Tsay said.

"Even if we implement more objective evaluations, a lot of music is consumed live, so you can't take out the visual," she said. "Unless we decide we only want to experience music through auditory means, there will always be a visual element to these performances."
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/08/the-look-of-music/


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

*The Look of Music - The Importance of the Visual Element in Performance*

When it comes to classical music competitions, one could be forgiven for thinking how well someone plays is the single most important factor.

New research conducted by a recent Harvard graduate, however, suggests otherwise.

In a study by Chia-Jung Tsay, who last year earned a Ph.D. in organizational behavior with a secondary Ph.D. field in music, nearly all participants - including highly trained musicians - were better able to identify the winners of competitions by watching silent video clips than by listening to audio recordings. The work was described in a paper published this month in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

"It's a very counterintuitive finding - there have been some interesting reactions from musicians," Tsay said. "What this suggests is that there may be a way that visual information is prioritized over information from other modalities. In this case, it suggests that the visual trumps the audio, even in a setting where audio information should matter much more."

Tsay herself has performed at Carnegie Hall and Lincoln Center, and said it was her experience in classical music competitions that piqued her interest in visual vs. audio information.

"For the last two decades, I've taken part in various competitions," she said. "Through this experience, I found that depending on what type of evaluations were used - whether it was live rounds or audio recordings that had to be submitted - the results might vary widely. My intuition was that there was a much more sophisticated role for visual information."

Though she ultimately performed seven experiments as part of the study, Tsay's research began close to home - with videos of her own performances from youth competitions.

"I was curious, if I gave people just video recordings or just audio recordings, or video with audio, which would allow them to identify the actual winners?" she said. "Even from the first experiments, it seemed clear visual information can have a lot of impact."

Tsay was surprised to find that the effect held up even in high-level international competitions, which often feature not only top performers, but also highly trained musicians as judges.

To conduct the study, Tsay recruited volunteers who received either video clips without sound, audio clips, or video clips that included sound. After viewing the short clips, participants were asked to identify the winners.

"What I found was that people had a lower chance of identifying the eventual winner if they only listened to the sound," Tsay said. "People who just had the video - even without the sound - had surprisingly high rates of selecting the actual winner. Even with professional musicians, who are trained to use sound, and who have both expertise and experience, it appeared that the visual information was overriding the sound."

Because musical differences between two top performers are often slight, viewers can more easily pick up on visual cues they associate with high-quality performance, Tsay believes. Factors such as a performer's engagement, passion, and energy resonate.

"Those aspects are more closely tied to performance, or what we think of as performance, that allow the judges to distinguish between two performances," Tsay said. "I wouldn't expect musical novices to be able to use auditory information the same way a trained musician with 20 years of experience would, but when I ran the studies with professional musicians - people who perform as part of orchestras, or who teach at music conservatories - and I saw the same result, that was when I realized that regardless of the amount of experience, people still seem to rely on visual information."

While orchestras have in recent years turned to blind auditions in an effort to blunt factors such as gender and race, it's doubtful the impact of visual information could ever be entirely eliminated from the process, Tsay said.

"Even if we implement more objective evaluations, a lot of music is consumed live, so you can't take out the visual," she said. "Unless we decide we only want to experience music through auditory means, there will always be a visual element to these performances."
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/08/the-look-of-music/


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## LindnerianSea (Jun 5, 2013)

I agree. This explains why it is always the case that I always find myself getting out much more of the music when accompanied with either live performance scenes or even wonderful paintings in the case of youtube clips. Turns iut Wagner wasn't totally 'radical' when he suggested his view of ideal music experience where both visual and musical elements are integrated - and hence 'Gesamptkunstwerk'.

My only question is, the current study seems to have studied memory accuracy. I wonder whether our other psychological facultis - which would contain involvement, motivation, arousal, etc - would also be able to be enhanced as an influence if cross modal experiences.


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## LindnerianSea (Jun 5, 2013)

I agree. This explains why it is always the case that I always find myself getting out much more of the music when accompanied with either live performance scenes or even wonderful paintings in the case of youtube clips. Turns iut Wagner wasn't totally 'radical' when he suggested his view of ideal music experience where both visual and musical elements are integrated - and hence 'Gesamptkunstwerk'.

My only question is, the current study seems to have studied memory accuracy. I wonder whether our other psychological facultis - which would contain involvement, motivation, arousal, etc - would also be able to be enhanced as an influence if cross modal experiences.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> So what if they are not quite equal - unequal enough for a competent judge to hear the difference - and the one with 'presence' is the inferior musician?


Stop nit-picking,you'll have to go along and check on them personally,see dates in press---I'm sure they will be proud and thrilled to have you on the panel !


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

The sound for me. The visuals don't matter. Music is for listening. Not for looking.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

There is a thread on this subject already running
What Is More Important--The Sound or the Visuals of a Performance ? by BPS.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

There is a thread on this subject already running
What Is More Important--The Sound or the Visuals of a Performance ? by BPS.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Burroughs said:


> The sound for me. The visuals don't matter. Music is for listening. Not for looking.


You have missed the point,have a look at the original article---it's about judging panels.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Burroughs said:


> The sound for me. The visuals don't matter. Music is for listening. Not for looking.


Are you familiar with a guy called Lang Lang?.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

aleazk said:


> Are you familiar with a guy called Lang Lang?.


Yes. Awful to watch but even worse to listen to.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

In the age of recording I think listening has definitely been by far the dominant aspect, most people don't see the music they hear. Maybe this is a good thing.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

moody said:


> The point to this is simple and rather like going for a job interview.
> From the moment you make your entry all eyes are on you and although you may have all the credentials and expertise,it's the person who makes the best impression who will win the day usually.


This is why I should be allowed to do job interviews in the nude. I'm so hot naked. It'd be a big advantage.

But if I were a professional musician of any seriousness, I suspect I'd like the music to get at least some of the attention.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Absolutely - the wrapping is always more important than the content!!!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Interesting study, but it leaves me puzzled.

_"But the surprise came from those given only visual clips. They got it right 46 percent of the time."_ I don't get what it is saying here. I find this statistically irrelevant.

Also, unless it's an opera, what "visuals" could they be talking about in a classical performance?


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## LindnerianSea (Jun 5, 2013)

moody said:


> There is a thread on this subject already running
> What Is More Important--The Sound or the Visuals of a Performance ? by BPS.


.......... cheers, moody !


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## LindnerianSea (Jun 5, 2013)

moody said:


> There is a thread on this subject already running
> What Is More Important--The Sound or the Visuals of a Performance ? by BPS.


.......... cheers, moody !


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## LindnerianSea (Jun 5, 2013)

Okay... might be slightly irrelevant, but I will say it anyway as I posted something similar in a different thread.

I always find myself getting out much more of the music when accompanied with either live performance scenes or wonderful paintings in the case of Youtube clips. I profess that I sometimes even judge a CD by its cover. I think that although visuals are not necessary for music listening, it can certainly enhance (or from times degrade) the holistic experience. 

Turns out Wagner wasn't totally 'radical' when he suggested his view of ideal music experience where both visual and musical elements are integrated in cross-modal manner - and hence 'Gesamptkunstwerk'.


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## ethanjamesescano (Aug 29, 2012)

Music other than opera - Music
Opera and film - Music and appearance


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I noticed that the study was careful to specify things like passion and involvement as the visual elements that seemed to make the difference. They carefully avoided the idea of physical appearance relative to such subjective things as "beauty" or "attractiveness". I would hope so, but you never know.....


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## LindnerianSea (Jun 5, 2013)

Vesteralen said:


> I noticed that the study was careful to specify things like passion and involvement as the visual elements that seemed to make the difference. They carefully avoided the idea of physical appearance relative to such subjective things as "beauty" or "attractiveness". I would hope so, but you never know.....


Yes, that is a very important factor to control. Do you know whether they also control subjective factors of beauty and attractiveness in music too ? The psychology of aesthetics is a growing field, and I really hope this - even if imperfect - contributes as a stepping stone for a great number of future studies. One area future works should look closer into is what constitutes beauty, whether it is subjective (something that we learn to associate with beauty through life) or objective (items that give a sense of beauty innately through evolutionary processes) in both visual and auditory items, and whether the mixing of both actually enhances our experiences in various faculties of our psychology (decisions, feelings, reasoning, memory, etc...)


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Vesteralen said:


> I noticed that the study was careful to specify things like passion and involvement as the visual elements that seemed to make the difference. They carefully avoided the idea of physical appearance relative to such subjective things as "beauty" or "attractiveness". I would hope so, but you never know.....


That's the Handicapped Australian factor. There's a big difference between a video and an audio-only. 99.44% of my recordings are audio-only... .


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## HeartofGold (Aug 23, 2013)

In my opinion, the sound is definitely more important than the visuals. Of course I guess a good presentation is important to some extent, but sound is more important because that is why people are at the performance or wherever, to listen to the music:trp::guitar:


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

*Performance* matters bigtime. CM is loaded with talented goofballs.


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