# 3 most essential compositions!



## linz (Oct 5, 2006)

Which compositions throughout the history of music were most important to the development of music after it? This question is less conserned with the particular opinion as to the brilliance of the music, but more to its contributions to music history.

1. Monteverdi's 'l'Orfeo' (first opera where audience members cried during the preformance)
2. Beethoven's 'Eroica' (pioneer of Romantism)
3. Wagner's 'Tristan und Isolde' (pioneer of chromatism)


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Gosh this one went no where! .................. or was that now here!


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

This thread went nowhere because three is too many. Limit it to one and you will get responses.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

1. Monteverdi's Il Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda (very very innovative string writing that set the foundations of standard string writing techniques for centuries to come, cellists went on strike because of it! :lol
2. Beethoven's Sixth Symphony (pioneer of programmatic music that became popular during the Romantic era and fought against earlier absolute music)
3. Schoenberg's String Quartet no. 2 (first real atonality in the last movement and also requires a soprano)


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I can do three......

1. Poème Electronique
2. Ionisation
3. Amériques


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> 1. Monteverdi's Il Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda (very very innovative string writing that set the foundations of standard string writing techniques for centuries to come, cellists went on strike because of it! :lol
> 2. Beethoven's Sixth Symphony (pioneer of programmatic music that became popular during the Romantic era and fought against earlier absolute music)
> 3. Schoenberg's String Quartet no. 2 (first real atonality in the last movement and also requires a soprano)


What no Sibelius?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"My Sharona" has to be in there somewhere...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> What no Sibelius?


I'm shocked!  I just went with one of my stock answers on innovative music.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

KenOC said:


> "My Sharona" has to be in there somewhere...


I would say "Pub with No Beer".......


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Poor Linz is probably long gone. Or reincarnated.

Three at random:

*Lully - Le bourgeois gentilhomme* 
One of the earliest uses of dance forms at varying speeds in one work leading eventually to the Suite and the symphony as we know it today.

*Beethoven - Symphony No. 9*
I disagree that No. 3, or any of them except possibly No. 6, pioneered Romanticism. They are firmly rooted in classical ideals of balance. But the 9th did seem to take symphonies to a whole new level and was perhaps more influential on others than No. 3.

*Krzysztof Penderecki - Violin Concerto*
A bold leap toward the use of major and minor triads once in a while and melodic material.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Bach's Mass in B minor
Mozart's Don Giovanni
Stravinsky's Rite of Spring


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

science said:


> Bach's Mass in B minor
> Mozart's Don Giovanni
> Stravinsky's Rite of Spring


Nothing in the last century?


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

COAG's Op.1
COAG's Op.3
COAG's Op.7
:lol:


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## userfume (Nov 21, 2012)

Fur Elise
Hall of the mountain king
Pachelbel's Canon

jks


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> "My Sharona" has to be in there somewhere...


Was that even written when this thread began 

I do have to ask (to no one in particular), how would anyone know whether L'Orfeo was the first opera in which anyone cried?


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

after 1960..

*Ben Britten* - War Requiem
*Luc Berio* - Sinfonia
*Sofia Gubaidulina* - Offertorium

/ptr


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

JS Bach: WTC I & II
LvB: Eroica
Stravinsky: Le Sacre du Printemps


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Pergolesi: _La serva padrona_
Beethoven: Symphony No. 5
Debussy: _Nocturnes_


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## TheVioletKing (Jan 9, 2013)

Johann Sebastian Bach - Brandenburg Concertos (Counting all as one collective work)
Ludwig van Beethoven - Symphony No. 3 "Eroica"
Igor Stravinsky - The Rite of Spring


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Nothing in the last century?


I think Stravinsky's Rite is only 99 years and 10 or 11 months old just now.

Anyway, too many centuries. I even left off the entire 1800s.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Arsakes said:


> COAG's Op.1
> COAG's Op.3
> COAG's Op.7
> :lol:


I'm writing my opus 1 at the moment actually, the first work I am actually happy with.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Mozart PC #20
Beethoven's 9th
Stravinsky Rite of Spring


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

It would be interesting for all you people to tell us the facts behind your chosen pieces...


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

For me, Mozart's 20th is a huge leap forward, influencing Beethoven and other 19th century composers.

Beethoven's 9th is like a behemoth that dragged a murky trail into the room and can't be ignored.

Stravisnky's Rite of Spring is another leap forward, influencing a lot of what came after...


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> It would be interesting for all you people to tell us the facts behind your chosen pieces...


As You please Sir CoAG!



ptr said:


> after 1960..





> *Ben Britten* - War Requiem


Sums up the atrocities of the Second World War, and begs for forgiveness!



> *Luc Berio* - Sinfonia


The first post-modern Symphony, Berio is playful with all of musical history and makes fun of contemporary culture!



> *Sofia Gubaidulina* - Offertorium


Is just an incredibly beautiful concerto! She is a most important deconstructivist, often use BACH (A Musical Offering here), it is a fun music game to try to reassemble what she has pulled apart!

/ptr


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## chromatic owl (Jan 4, 2017)

Bach: Mass in B minor
Schubert: Winterreise
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 4


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Beethoven: Piano concerto 5.

Verdi: Don Carlo.

Mozart: Piano concerto 17.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Beethoven's A minor Quartet. Its slow movement seemed to be used as a model by Mahler for his symphonic adagios.

Beethoven Eroica Symphony. Took the symphony out of the polite aristocratic listening room.

Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro. Dared to mock the aristocrat class. Times were changing.


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## Hurrian (Jan 16, 2017)

Bach: Art of Fugue 
Stravinsky: Rite of Spring
Ives: Concord Sonata 

At least they're the most essential to me.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

I don't want to speak for others, so I'll just list the pieces that are essential to my personal enjoyment. I'm gonna cheat a little bit  and do three from each period (excluding any pre-Baroque stuff because I don't know it well enough):

*Baroque *
Monteverdi: Orfeo 
Bach: Mass in B Minor 
Handel: Messiah

*Classical *
Mozart: Symphony No. 41, "Jupiter"
Haydn: The Creation
Beethoven: Symphony No. 3, "Eroica"

*Romantic*
Chopin: Ballade No. 1
Liszt: Sonata in B Minor
Brahms: Symphony No. 4

*Impressionism*
Debussy: La Mer
Debussy: Preludes Books 1 and 2
Ravel: Gaspard de la nuit

*Modernism*
Schoenberg: Pierrot Lunaire
Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra
Berg: Violin Concerto


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## ibrahim (Apr 29, 2017)

Opus 109 -- LvB
Opus 110 -- LvB
Opus 111 -- LvB


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Bach, St Matthew Passion
Beethoven, 9th Symphony
Wagner, Tristan und Isolde


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I don't want to speak for others, so I'll just list the pieces that are essential to my personal enjoyment. I'm gonna cheat a little bit  and do three from each period (excluding any pre-Baroque stuff because I don't know it well enough):
> 
> *Baroque *
> Monteverdi: Orfeo
> ...


That's a nice way to stretch three to fifteen. I'll go with just three, because I always follow the rules.

The #1 priority is Bach's complete WTC. That takes me to Shostakovich's Preludes & Fugues Op. 87. Then to satisfy my notions of contrast, Mozart's Great Mass in C minor completes the mission.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Has anyone bothered to read the OP?


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Has anyone bothered to read the OP?


Yes, but I chose to reject its premise. I don't feel qualified to determine which works made the greatest impact on music history - it would require an enormous amount of research (and a careful definition of terms) to address that topic with the rigor that it deserves. Therefore, I took the easy way out: I listed some of my favorite pieces.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Has anyone bothered to read the OP?


And it took 7 years before someone else posted in this thread.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bettina said:


> Yes, but I chose to reject its premise. I don't feel qualified to determine which works made the greatest impact on music history - it would require an enormous amount of research (and a careful definition of terms) to address that topic with the rigor that it deserves. Therefore, I took the easy way out: I listed some of my favorite pieces.


If we only discussed things here with "the rigor they deserved" this town would have to be renamed "Tombstone." I'll take a different easy way out and endorse the OP's choices of works most essential to the development of music.

Monteverdi's _L'Orfeo_ wasn't the very beginning of opera but it was the first masterpiece in the genre.

Beethoven's _"Eroica"_ was the first great work I know of in which a genre of abstract or "absolute" music (symphony) makes a powerful semi-programmatic statement and in the process executes a quantum leap in both structural and expressive terms, pointing the way to Beethoven's, and then the Romantics', further innovations in the form and meaning of the symphony.

_Tristan und Isolde_ was a creative explosion of powerful impact and far-reaching influence, which deploys chromatic harmony on a scale previously unimagined and never surpassed, portrays a dramatic conception through an continuous, extended, freely developing orchestral texture consisting of the quasi-symphonic manipulation of musical motifs - thus supplanting the traditional forms and vocal domination of opera - and exploits to the limit the expressive possibilities of these innovations.

In the 20th century I can't point to a single work as having the greatest impact on the direction of music. I suppose it might come down to whether you view the abandonment of tonality as an extension of Wagner's chromaticism or as something quite new. I tend to the latter view, but I'm not going to revisit that debate here!


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> In the 20th century I can't point to a single work as having the greatest impact on the direction of music. I suppose it might come down to whether you view the abandonment of tonality as an extension of Wagner's chromaticism or as something quite new. I tend to the latter view, but I'm not going to revisit that debate here!


Why not both?

As for the 20th century, I think the first composer to decisively break with Romanticism was Debussy with his Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune, but of course that's actually from the 1890s.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Chronochromie said:


> Why not both?
> 
> As for the 20th century, I think the first composer to decisively break with Romanticism was Debussy with his Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune, but of course that's actually from the 1890s.


Interesting. I have a hard time hearing "l'Apres-midi" as un-Romantic. In what way do you think it is?


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

The mass in b minor

tristan und isolde

einstein on the beach


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Interesting. I have a hard time hearing "l'Apres-midi" as un-Romantic. In what way do you think it is?


Really? It sounds out of place to me. It lacks clear development, forward motion and strong contrasts. It just seems to float, to represent a moment in time, rather than an unfolding story, so to speak.

Do you think of Debussy's late works as Romantic too? Do you draw a line to separate before and after he goes Modern and where? I don't know how anyone could think of Jeux or the Études as Romantic.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Debussy's "Afternoon" has been popular as a hyper-romantic work as long as I've been alive. It's certainly adventurous in tonality, but it exudes Romantic sensibility.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> And it took 7 years before someone else posted in this thread.


That's the innocence of new members for you


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Debussy's "Afternoon" has been popular as a hyper-romantic work as long as I've been alive. It's certainly adventurous in tonality, but it exudes Romantic sensibility.


A very peculiar Romanticism indeed. Almost to the point where we could call it something else.

But people confuse Symbolism with Romanticism quite often.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

The very greatest works are all so influential/essential that I'm just sticking with my top 3 works of all time for this:

Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824) 
Symphony No. 9 in D Major - Gustav Mahler (1909)
Mass in B Minor - Johann Sebastian Bach (1749) 

Gun held to my head (please don't ), I might say:

Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824) 
Tristan und Isolde - Richard Wagner (1859) 
The Rite of Spring - Igor Stravinsky (1913) 

But strong cases could be mounted for many others...


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Has anyone bothered to read the OP?


Yes, but I tried to get away with not following it anyway, before salvaging my post in the end. The rebellious spirit of the music I was thinking about made me do it. Then the compassionate spirit of the music I was thinking about made me do it.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Chronochromie said:


> A very peculiar Romanticism indeed. Almost to the point where we could call it something else.
> 
> But people confuse Symbolism with Romanticism quite often.


Specially people what ain't been to college to learn what to call things!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

linz said:


> Which compositions throughout the history of music were most important to the development of music after it? This question is less conserned with the particular opinion as to the brilliance of the music, but more to its contributions to music history.
> 
> 1. Monteverdi's 'l'Orfeo' (first opera where audience members cried during the preformance)
> 2. Beethoven's 'Eroica' (pioneer of Romantism)
> 3. Wagner's 'Tristan und Isolde' (pioneer of chromatism)


1. The pioneer of chromaticism is much earlier than Wagner. It is Gesualdo's late works like his Tenenbrae Responsories in the early 1600's, 200 years before Wagner!

2. Haydn was the pioneer the symphony and its use of the sonata form, with dramatic development never heard before in Bach and others. Every composer from Mozart to Mahler followed his lead.

3. Varese stripped all preconceptions thst music was about notes and melody/harmony. It is a smaller branch in music, but still had many followers.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Specially people what ain't been to college to learn what to call things!


Your righteous fight against academics and critics continues!

But seriously, from what I've seen both online and from people in the flesh most call the Prelude and Debussy in general "Impressionist", and think of him and Ravel as neither Romantic nor Modern.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Specially people what ain't been to college to learn what to call things!


Going to college actually made my terminological/chronological confusion much worse. When I was a high school kid taking piano lessons, I learned that the Baroque period ended when Bach died, and the Classical period ended when Beethoven died (how convenient). I was very happy about these tidy little boxes! But my college professors insisted on showing us every shade of grey...


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Interesting. I have a hard time hearing "l'Apres-midi" as un-Romantic. In what way do you think it is?


See text from 0:38" to 2:00" from this documentary on modern music:


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> *If we only discussed things here with "the rigor they deserved" this town would have to be renamed "Tombstone."* I'll take a different easy way out and endorse the OP's choices of works most essential to the development of music.
> 
> Monteverdi's _L'Orfeo_ wasn't the very beginning of opera but it was the first masterpiece in the genre.
> 
> Beethoven's _"Eroica"_ was the first great work I know of in which a genre of abstract or "absolute" music (symphony) makes a powerful semi-programmatic statement and in the process executes a quantum leap in both structural and expressive terms, pointing the way to Beethoven's, and then the Romantics', further innovations in the form and meaning of the symphony...


Then in that case, I shall take this opportunity to express (rather unrigorously! ) my disagreement with your second choice. As much as I adore everything by Beethoven, I do not think that the Eroica was the first symphonic work with programmatic intent and structural expansions. I would actually give that distinction to Haydn's Farewell Symphony. The musicologist James Webster has argued that this work anticipates many of the features (multi-movement unity, programmatic expression, etc) that are usually associated with the Eroica. Webster's book has convinced me that Haydn deserves a lot of credit for Beethoven's achievements. Here's a link with information about the book: http://www.cambridge.org/us/academi...mat=PB&isbn=9780521612012#Xm43DrQfjmXv8GJW.97


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I always wanted to be a grave digger............


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Chronochromie said:


> Really? It sounds out of place to me. It lacks clear development, forward motion and strong contrasts. It just seems to float, to represent a moment in time, rather than an unfolding story, so to speak.
> 
> Do you think of Debussy's late works as Romantic too? Do you draw a line to separate before and after he goes Modern and where? I don't know how anyone could think of Jeux or the Études as Romantic.


Well, I know what you're saying. There is an easy-going quality in the work which is different from Romanticism's more typical intensity. To what extent are "clear development, forward motion and strong contrasts" essential elements of Romanticism? I don't think _L'Apres-midi_ is entirely lacking in these things, even though it may be more of a leisurely stroll in the sunshine than a drama or a quest. And there are premonitions of its "relaxed" attitude in music of Chopin, Berlioz, and Liszt, and some lengthy episodes in Wagner - _Siegfried_'s "Forest Murmers," the leisurely swimming of the Rhinemaidens in _Gotterdammerung_, and especially the harmonically luxuriant chorus of the flower maidens in _Parsifal_ - which have been called "impressionistic" in recognition of their delicate mood-painting, their sensual evocativeness (and they aren't the only such passages in Wagner). Not terribly far from Debussy, I think - as he himself was quick to notice.

I'm far from saying that there's nothing new in Debussy's piece, but its originality doesn't obscure the way in which it continues Romanticism's quite typical interest in evoking nature and the feelings inspired by it. Romanticism doesn't always have to portray a human drama, and this work does retain a suggestion of narrative and a sense of satisfaction at having taken us somewhere (certainly Nijinsky found an obvious story in it). Even when Debussy's harmonic language comes to embrace more unconventional procedures (whole-tone scales, "exotic" modes) his aesthetic goals still seem to me substantially Romantic in the above sense, so I'd hesitate to say just when I think Debussy "goes Modern," and I don't think we need to draw a clear line. To my hearing, _L'Apres-midi_ is still on the Romantic side in a subtle spectrum: on, shall we say, the red side of purple, whereas _Jeux_, filled with harmonic and instrumental color and detail to be savored for its own sake, has probably passed on to the blue side.

Debussy, and "impressionism" generally, seem to me part of the larger artistic trend we might call "aestheticism," which grows out of aspects of Romanticism but represents a weakening of the psychological and ethical humanism which characterized that movement in favor of savoring the sensual qualities of experience for their own sake. In that respect I'd agree that Debussy veered off from the mainstream of Romanticism and ended up somewhere distinctly different.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Chronochromie said:


> Your righteous fight against academics and critics continues!
> 
> But seriously, from what I've seen both online and from people in the flesh most call the Prelude and Debussy in general "Impressionist", and think of him and Ravel as neither Romantic nor Modern.


Well, as you know Debussy himself rejected the term "impressionist." But that's cheating a bit because most sane people hear it as impressionist! Which is neither here nor there, because my rulebook says something can be both impressionist and Romantic.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> The pioneer of chromaticism is much earlier than Wagner. It is Gesualdo's late works like his Tenenbrae Responsories in the early 1600's, 200 years before Wagner!


Actually there were many composers of madrigals around that time experimenting with chromaticism in pursuit of heightened expressiveness. Try Cipriano de Rore, Luca Marenzio and Michelangelo Rossi in addition to Gesualdo. Their sort of chromaticism was not really comparable to Wagner's, and is really more startling, in that it isn't rooted in the established conventions of common practice as Wagner's is.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bettina said:


> I do not think that the Eroica was the first symphonic work with programmatic intent and structural expansions. I would actually give that distinction to Haydn's Farewell Symphony. The musicologist James Webster has argued that this work anticipates many of the features (multi-movement unity, programmatic expression, etc) that are usually associated with the Eroica. Webster's book has convinced me that Haydn deserves a lot of credit for Beethoven's achievements. Here's a link with information about the book: http://www.cambridge.org/us/academi...mat=PB&isbn=9780521612012#Xm43DrQfjmXv8GJW.97


I'm going to have to get back to you on that one!


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Well, as you know Debussy himself rejected the term "impressionist." But that's cheating a bit because most sane people hear it as impressionist! Which is neither here nor there, because my rulebook says something can be both impressionist and Romantic.


And mine says that it can be both Symbolist/Impressionist and Modern. :tiphat:

But the masses may break our rulebooks more than we'd like them to! :lol:


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Well, I know what you're saying. There is an easy-going quality in the work which is different from Romanticism's more typical intensity. To what extent are "clear development, forward motion and strong contrasts" essential elements of Romanticism? I don't think _L'Apres-midi_ is entirely lacking in these things, even though it may be more of a leisurely stroll in the sunshine than a drama or a quest. And there are premonitions of its "relaxed" attitude in music of Chopin, Berlioz, and Liszt, and some lengthy episodes in Wagner - _Siegfried_'s "Forest Murmers," the leisurely swimming of the Rhinemaidens in _Gotterdammerung_, and especially the harmonically luxuriant chorus of the flower maidens in _Parsifal_ - which have been called "impressionistic" in recognition of their delicate mood-painting, their sensual evocativeness (and they aren't the only such passages in Wagner). Not terribly far from Debussy, I think - as he himself was quick to notice.
> 
> I'm far from saying that there's nothing new in Debussy's piece, but its originality doesn't obscure the way in which it continues Romanticism's quite typical interest in evoking nature and the feelings inspired by it. Romanticism doesn't always have to portray a human drama, and this work does retain a suggestion of narrative and a sense of satisfaction at having taken us somewhere (certainly Nijinsky found an obvious story in it). Even when Debussy's harmonic language comes to embrace more unconventional procedures (whole-tone scales, "exotic" modes) his aesthetic goals still seem to me substantially Romantic in the above sense, so I'd hesitate to say just when I think Debussy "goes Modern," and I don't think we need to draw a clear line. To my hearing, _L'Apres-midi_ is still on the Romantic side in a subtle spectrum: on, shall we say, the red side of purple, whereas _Jeux_, filled with harmonic and instrumental color and detail to be savored for its own sake, has probably passed on to the blue side.
> 
> Debussy, and "impressionism" generally, seem to me part of the larger artistic trend we might call "aestheticism," which grows out of aspects of Romanticism but represents a weakening of the psychological and ethical humanism which characterized that movement in favor of savoring the sensual qualities of experience for their own sake. In that respect I'd agree that Debussy veered off from the mainstream of Romanticism and ended up somewhere distinctly different.


I think he's more original than you give him credit for, those "premonitions" are no more "impressionistic" than the second movement of Biber's Battaglia is "Modern". Debussy built his entire work on such an aesthetic. 
But at least we agree on something!


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Actually there were many composers of madrigals around that time experimenting with chromaticism in pursuit of heightened expressiveness. Try Cipriano de Rore, Luca Marenzio and Michelangelo Rossi in addition to Gesualdo. Their sort of chromaticism was not really comparable to Wagner's, and is really more startling, in that it isn't rooted in the established conventions of common practice as Wagner's is.


Add Orlande de Lassus to that list (his _Prophetiae Sibyllarum_)!


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Well-Tempered Clavier, anyone?...


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