# When should I give up?



## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

I've been trying for years to be a performing classical pianist.. and I've about decided just to give up on the dream entirely, mostly because, I never get any response from people I ask if my playing is any good. My friends all say that I am good, but I don't know if they're just being kind. The only time I sent one of my recordings to someone, the reply wasn't that kind. Not to mention there just hasn't been any opportunities in years for me to do anything with it. I do have a decent sized repertoire, but like I said, no opportunities and the one response I got from someone who wasn't a friend, wasn't good. So what do I do?


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> When should I give up?


Never. You go on and on with what you belive to be your life's mission until very end and you either win at some point or get to the state when you have no place to live, no money for bread, then you take flintlock pistol and shoot yourself on the cliff during stormy and windy night.

That is my very honest advice.


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Depends on precisely what you mean by your question. Is it "when should I give up trying to be a professional performer?" or "when should I give up playing?" In either case, though, I imagine the answer would be: "Whenever you stop enjoying just doing it."


----------



## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

Well I've never had the opportunity to be a performer, at least not in a situation where I got paid for the performance.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Manok said:


> Well I've never had the opportunity to be a performer, at least not in a situation where I got paid for the performance.


Have you ever tried starting a youtube channel to spread your piano playing to the youtube masses? That can help in a number of ways, you can find out what people tend to think, you can show off what unique pieces you know, and your technique may even improve. On youtube, people like prolific players anyway, if you are decent enough and play a lot of different things, people are going to be interested in what you are doing.


----------



## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

How old are you, how do you market yourself, what kind of performer do you want to be? And where did you go to school and where do you live now?


----------



## hawk (Oct 1, 2007)

How old are you? While I am not a classical musician I am a "professional" who did not begin playing music til I was 32. I played for the love of it and i still do. Never aspired to be a professional it just happened. A certain amount of effort is required in anything we do but sometimes it can cloud your passion. Play because you love it not because it might lead you to a position in an orchestra~it may never but it does not mean you won't play the music you love. There are other arena's for you to perform in....

BTW~I think the point of giving up is past. You would have done it already. keep asking questions of yourself and others and explore the other places to bring your passion to.


----------



## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

30, self taught, and I haven't really marketed myself to anyone, I try making recordings but I'm never satisfied either with the performance or the quality. I wouldn't begin to know how to promote a YouTube channel. I don't have the funds for classes or a teacher, same goes with the music I write, and have posted here, self taught with no real idea what I'm doing. Maybe that's my problem. I just don't know anymore.


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

My advice:

1. Being "Self-taught" is crap. Number of classical pianists who are self-taught: Zero. Budget and find a teacher.
2. After you find a teacher, with her determine your playing ability. Work and polish exam pieces, do a high-level practicum exam, get a good score (there may be additional theory and history exams you will need to write).
3. With your exam score, you can now apply to colleges. Get into a 4-year college. There are scholarships and student loans to assist with the costs.
4. Graduate college with good grades, get a degree.

The problem is that without the degree, like most other jobs, you can't even get your foot in the door to get people to look at you, no matter how brilliant you are. Also your college professors, possibly professionally performing musicians themselves, will have connections, your best bet at getting opportunities to perform. Like everything else worth achieving the road is long, and hard. Good luck.


----------



## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Manok said:


> 30, self taught, and I haven't really marketed myself to anyone, I try making recordings but I'm never satisfied either with the performance or the quality. I wouldn't begin to know how to promote a YouTube channel. I don't have the funds for classes or a teacher, same goes with the music I write, and have posted here, self taught with no real idea what I'm doing. Maybe that's my problem. I just don't know anymore.


And what type of pianist are you trying to be? What are your goals? Do you want to be a soloist- play concertos and recitals, or have a position in an orchestra, or play chamber music, accompany people etc... any interest in teaching? Sorry for bombarding you, but I promise to give a thorough (and honest) answer once I know everything.


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Couchie said:


> 1. Being "Self-taught" is crap. Number of classical pianists who are self-taught: Zero. Budget and find a teacher.


Brendel had the basics laid out by some unknown, but otherwise was largely self-taught.


----------



## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Yeah, don't listen to Couchie (sorry Couchie). There is a lot more practical advice to be given then whipping money out of thin air and going to school.


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Nix said:


> Yeah, don't listen to Couchie (sorry Couchie). There is a lot more *practical* advice to be given then whipping money out of thin air and going to school.


A tried and true channel that delivers more consistent career opportunities than a college education. Let's hear it.


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Couchie said:


> A tried and true channel that delivers more consistent career opportunities than a college education. Let's hear it.


Apprenticeships probably have higher employment rates.


----------



## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

Well maybe I'll record one of the works I know well, something simple like the 2nd prelude by bach, and just see what you folks think of the playing. as far as what kind of pianist... I am very very eclectic, I'll play just about anything, and would like to try it all, I have no idea what kind of pianist I'd wind up being. Again, no funds = no college, and if that is the only way I will get anywhere I may as well give up.


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Polednice said:


> Apprenticeships probably have higher employment rates.


Well, Manok could earn a nice living _building_ pianos...


----------



## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

If your ambition is mainly to play for people, consider being a church musician. Most congregations have at least a piano player, who sometimes doubles as choir director, and during service (ours at least) you get to play up to 4 pieces of your own choosing: prelude, offertory, communion, and postlude. You'll have an automatic audience (and who know what connections might be in the congregation), usually a small wage, an opportunity to develop new skills (conducting, working with ministry to select hymns), and a chance for extra income if paid by the service during the holiday season, and with weddings and funerals.
You can find job postings for church musicians at music stores and colleges.

There's never a good reason to give up music unless you have lost your passion for it. Many musicians do not make their primary income through playing, but find a way to stay involved in music throughout their lives. Opportunities will come your way, but you have to create the space for them to happen.


----------



## CountessAdele (Aug 25, 2011)

Here's a few excerpts from the book _The Naked Voice_ Its about classical singing but I think the message applies here:

"The typical defintion of success is the attainent of fame and/or wealth. I believe true success is finding our own unique path and staying on it. We might become rich and famous while following that path, but fame and wealth are really only byproducts of true success, if we achieve them at all. Just as we continually examine and refine our singing, our own personal defintion of success must be constantly reexamined and refined."

"Singers sometimes buy into the typical definition of success and say to me, "I'll try this singing thing untill I'm thirty, but if I havn't gotten to the met by then I'll quit." My response to those people is, "Quit now, and save all of us a lot of grief!" Anytime we base our idea of success on a specific outcome, we are setting ourselves up for disappointment. If we aren't enjoying the journey, we are not likely to enjoy the destination."

"True success comes from finding and following your passion."

Hope this is useful.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Never. You go on and on with what you belive to be your life's mission until very end and you either win at some point or get to the state when you have no place to live, no money for bread, then you take flintlock pistol and shoot yourself on the cliff during stormy and windy night.
> 
> That is my very honest advice.


_Manok_, after removing the histrionics, I agree with _Aramis_; never give up. You may have seen the sketch - the frog in the heron's bill, hanging on; the caption is: "Never, ever give up". Going by your post, you have had this goal for a long time; dropping it would leave a void. The problem with a void is that it may be an abyss. You know what they say about 'staring into an abyss'.

I know next to zilch about YouTube, but it is a way to get your playing 'out there'. Some musicians burn a CD-R of their favorite recorded performances, and use it as a leg-up for an audition. You can operate a computer, which means you can make a CD-R (not midi, a real piano recording).

You can do this.

If you wish, send a copy of the CD-R to me; I will listen, and I won't lie.


----------



## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

In the words of Winston Churchill, "Never Give Up"


----------



## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Manok said:


> 30, self taught, and I haven't really marketed myself to anyone, I try making recordings but *I'm never satisfied either with the performance or the quality. I wouldn't begin to know how to promote a YouTube channel.* I don't have the funds for classes or a teacher, same goes with the music I write, and have posted here, self taught with no real idea what I'm doing. Maybe that's my problem. I just don't know anymore.


Well, once you figure out a way to record something you're happy with...if we like it, you've got a huge platform here just to get someone listening to your stuff. As far as being self-taught, as long as you at one point have studied reading and can do that well, I don't see what the problem is. One of my favorite pianists was taught by his mom among other teachers; but you didn't see his mommy holding his hand while playing legendary recordings or concerts.

Anyway, do what you do. You can't change the past. If you didn't start at 2, think of what you can accomplished before 42. That's still pretty darned young and it's a while away.


----------



## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Manok said:


> . . . no funds = no college, and if that is the only way I will get anywhere I may as well give up.


College isn't a 'requirement' for being a successful musician ... I turned 'professional' without a degree and have been playing classical organ in churches for the past 51 years. I spent "funds" on 14 years of private keyboard instruction along the way.



Lunasong said:


> If your ambition is mainly to play for people, consider being a church musician. Most congregations have at least a piano player, who sometimes doubles as choir director, and during service (ours at least) you get to play up to 4 pieces of your own choosing: prelude, offertory, communion, and postlude. You'll have an automatic audience (and who know what connections might be in the congregation), usually a small wage, an opportunity to develop new skills (conducting, working with ministry to select hymns), and a chance for extra income if paid by the service during the holiday season, and with weddings and funerals.
> You can find job postings for church musicians at music stores and colleges.
> 
> There's never a good reason to give up music unless you have lost your passion for it. Many musicians do not make their primary income through playing, but find a way to stay involved in music throughout their lives. Opportunities will come your way, but you have to create the space for them to happen.


@ Lunasong ... Excellent post!!



GoneBaroque said:


> In the words of Winston Churchill, "Never Give Up"


Amen to that, too!


----------



## karenpat (Jan 16, 2009)

I don't know any self-taught, professional classical pianists, but I do know that tenor Ian Bostridge (who sings Schubert like no other!) took a different approach than most singers to his musical career; he actually has a degree in history and has published a thesis on witchcraft, while he was in choirs and took singing lessons on the side. Being a historian apparently helps his singing career indirectly because of the research and insight he provides in connection to the material he sings, and thus adds to the interpretation of the text. 

I would also say that whatever happens you should always try to be involved in music in some way or other. I doesn't have to be in the way you always envisioned, but I believe that if music is something you burn for then you can't help but surround yourself with things or activities related to music (that's the case with me and art anyway), and I *don't* think it would be a good idea to give up and do something completely different...

I'd go with the youtube idea


----------



## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I hadn't seen Luna's post...without a doubt, a great idea...I have a friend I've mentioned that is a concert pianist...he is actually extremely good and does my favorite Liszt and plays the Rhapsody in Blue among my all time favorites; next to all the 'best' ever...still, he only ever gives about a dozen recitals a year. He keeps busy as a church pianist and organist and is quite happy with where he is. It's a plus for me as I get to jam on the organ during the week and play on a nice grand with church acoustics almost whenever I want. 

I think you wanna be heard and applauded, though, and these days you gotta start with The Tube.


----------



## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Don't worry

Like Chinese people say:

- If there is a solution what are you worried about...and
- if there is no solution for your problem, what are you worried about?

Once you'll be dead it makes no difference if you were good or bad...LOL

Martin


----------



## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanks, Krummhorn and kv466. Just to give one an idea of church wages, here's a link to the AGO website (American Guild of Organists). Our church follows this guideline.
http://www.agohq.org/profession/indexsalary.html

Also, connections are key. You may need to spend a lot of time building relationships in order for something to pay off. This means hanging out with other musicians, attending their gigs, programs, etc; making sure THEY know that you play and are available. You may also want to accept accompaniment work(rehearsal pianist, recitals, etc) to get your name out there. One thing leads to another. Those that are working tend to get more work, and those who are not find it hard to catch a break.


----------



## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

Thank you for all the support. I did give up completely once for a few years, there was a big void there, and I couldn't take it anymore and finally went back to playing again. I tend to play a lot of the more modern composers so I don't know how well I would do with church music. In highschool I always had people coming up to me telling me how good I was, since that was the last time I did play in front of people, its a little harder now days to get performances in. Other people may have different opinions than the people at my highschool. I do not have to be famous or wealthy to be happy, just playing music I enjoy playing for others is enough for me.


----------

