# On Xenakis, from that "other" forum



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

*Here are some exchanges from that "other" forum,* from an attempted Xenakis thread which was shot down. This really makes me appreciate the thoughtful restraint of everyone on this forum. These excerpts are edited somewhat, but the overall exchange is preserved. Notice how it deteriorates...
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Opening post: 
"Kind of dissonant. Anyone more brutal sounding than him? I gotta admit, I am kind of looking for the most wild sounds. Listening to his String Quartets performed by the JACK Quartet. What should be my next purchase of his? Any other Composers take Avant-Garde to a more wild sound?"
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"As I stated in another thread all one has to do is mention 'atonal' or '12-tone' or 'avant-garde' or 'Schoenberg', etc. and World War Three or a reasonable facsimile breaks out. Unfortunately after 90 years there are still those who want to quarrel over this music...I am not a fan of Xenakis so I can not help. Fortunately there are aficionados of Xenakis who meander around here. They should be able to give you some great suggestions, if they are not drowned out by some the reactionaries who are lurking about. I can assure you that there are an army of posters who will try to convince you that you are wasting your time. (Note: I am not one of them.)...Wish you luck."
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"That post is I think unhappily confrontational. That said, I have tried to "get into" Xenakis on several occasions but have been disappointed in the results. Wishing you better luck. --An unrepentant reactionary"
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"...there are a few great interviews with Xenakis on youtube; I'd start with any piece for orchestra, they are all quite powerful stuff, like being out on a boat in a storm, or approaching a tornado traveling through Missouri..."
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"Some modern 20th century music is ugly and interesting. Some of it is ugly and uninteresting. Xenakis' music is of the latter variety. Just my opinion."
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"Trying to get into it (or trying to make sense of it) maybe the wrong attitude. Looking for wild sounds is basically what got me into Xenakis. Breaking the trend of music having to sound traditional. Very complex as well. I can't relate to Xenakis in any way but glad to have something out of the norm to listen to. Schnittke through Shostakovich got me into Modern Music and is probably still my favorite Modern Composer. But I appreciate Xenakis for breaking more boundaries of traditional Classical. And tbh it is so foreign for me that I can't tell one piece from the next. I don't worry about that though."
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"With all due respect the word "Interesting" is a cop out for I do not want to say HORRIBLE and be thought unsophisticated. Dat's my call."
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"I apologize to you if my statement is controntational and unhelpful. You do not need me or anybody else to tell you what to listen too. If you are interested in exploring Xenakis, go for it. I really do not want to muddy the waters. I will return if I run into anything that I think might be helpful to you."
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"I have no problem with your post tbh. Seriously, I have no problems with people criticizing this music. You gotta be in a certain mindset to listen to this."
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"Your statement is a tautology as " You gotta be in a certain mindset to listen to any kinda music" I know perfectly rational nice people who would rather walk on hot coals than listen to an opera. Add any type of music you like and the statement will mean the same thing."
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"You know what I'm talking about. You gotta have an open mind to appreciate the weirdness in some Modern Music. It's obviously not a popular style compared to Baroque-Early 20th Century Classical."
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"WHOOOOOOOOOA Please do not use a cheap debator's ad hominem on me. I do NOT think that people who do not like Opera or Romanticism do NOT have Open minds. Their ears and emotions respond differently to music which I love. People have + or - feelings and responses to things - one uses the open /closed mind thing when their backs are against the logical wall. Do my friends who like Puccini but not Verdi both of whom I love have Open Minds about Puccini but closed minds about Verdi? That is silly. We simply REACT differently. I know people who hate raw clams and I hate honey. It is not the mind set which is the issue but the compilcated human forces which make TASTE and APRRECIATION."
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"A positive mindset then. One that is looking for something really random rather than the traditional organization of Classical Music with tonality. Anyways I can see you could argue all day about my word choices. I'll just respond to those that are helpful from here on out for this topic."
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"You chose your words and if they cannot be defended then YOU 
1- Need better words
2- Rethink your averments and their logical consequences.

Words have meanings and consequences and when used in a public forum should be such that the 
members of the forum are clear about YOUR usage and it is valid to disgree with your words and statements unless you consider this to be an exercise in Solipsism and the rest of us do not really exist as partners in this discussion. I would love to have this discussion over a Sybaritic dinner as I know most of the other posters. Regards-John"
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"The lack of "an open mind" is only one of many possible reasons! Here are some other reasons that certain people may not like Xenakis, taken from a long-ago thread:

- Alternate dimension is sucking gravity and good taste out of the Universe
- Anti-people people
- Crazed bigots
- Deserving of profound sorrow and pity
- Don't recycle
- Doomed to eternity burning in the everlasting fires of Hell
- Drive SUVs
- Drunk
- Dumb as posts
- Had an ex- girlfriend (or ex- boyfriend) who liked it
- Haven't read enough books about it
- Insane
- It was prophesied in the book of Ezekiel
- Knew a really annoying person who used to play it all the time
- Less than human
- Minds controlled by the Krell
- Morally deficient
- Multi-millionaire CEOs
- No Karaoke discs for Xenakis
- No one has ever choked on their own vomit in Xenakis
- No one wants to do a Xenakis air band
- Nobody eats bats on stage during a Xenakis performance
- Nobody looks like they're having an epileptic seizure on stage.
- Not commercially supported by hair products, Clearasil or beer
- One too many Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
- Ornery in extremis
- Paris Hilton has lowered the aggregate I.Q. below 100
- Plotting against me with many others
- Requires an attention span greater than three minutes
- Severely (but carefully) inbred
- Short on Good Taste neurons
- Slaves of Statistics
- Stunningly ignorant
- Takes more than a quarter to play in a bar
- Tasteless ostentatious baboons
- There's no Oprah Club for it
- Tone deaf or worse
- Too expensive to have performed at Bar Mitzvahs
- Tools of big capital
- Voted for Richard Nixon
- Watch Amos & Andy re-runs
- Women wear long gowns instead of underwear and fishnets
- Worshippers of Cthulhu
- You can't dance to it "
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"First thing tomorrow or later today - get the sayings of your last post COPYRIGHTED.
A point of diagreement friend -- Cthulhu is luscious served with Fresh Pesto sauce. Regards-John"
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"I have heard an LP of Xenakis and dont care to hear him again."
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"What (that) post is really trying to say, is that if we don't like Xenakis or any modern music, it is because we find it threatening to our nice safe, secure, sanitized manners of enjoying, escaping into serious music; and we haven't the time to learn more about it; just like we don't about quantum physics; sorry instead of the word "interesting" I could/should-a of said, stimulating, or provocative, or trenchant, or mind-blowing; or engaging;or primordial;truthful. . .

Yeah that's it, Xenakis. . . his music to me is more "truthful" than most modern composers. . . his music is in closer proximity to what serious music, or Art is suppose to do. Edgar Varese as well I'd say his music is truthful. . . or Charles Ives. . .some Aaron Copland. . .the music does not escape from itself,

truth is not always a pleasant item to contemplate, I recall a powerful story of the filmmaker Kurosawa, after Nagasaki his brother took Kurosawa to the ruins, and he said;
"No I don't want to look",
His older brother replied;
"But you are a filmmaker and if don't look now, you will never be able to see anything again"
So Kurosawa looked..."
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"[truth is not always a pleasant item to contemplate...] 
...It used to be thought that the artist must suffer in order to produce great music. Now, it seems, some believe that the artist should live a comfortable life and make the audience suffer. The consequences are unsurprising."
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"Yikes --now music is like math true or false - I do not think music is like science eg E=mc2 which is not something I need recorded. One is stretching the term music to make a point. Heck why not say 'I like the music of Xenakis".

Parts of this discussion remind me of a cook who sets forth a meal which when some say "It tastes awful" responds "But it is good for you". They are separate entities."
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"And so the usual ad hominems are thrown in defense of 'modern music': 'truthful' (implying other music is not), that those who don't like [insert composer under discussion] want safety and comfort (implying they are scared), that they need to 'learn to appreciate diversity' (implying that Xenakis represents all diversity and that if someone doesn't like his music, all they appreciate are Chopin and Beethoven), etc., etc. How very predictable and closed-minded.

It seems that safety and comfort are found in disparaging those who simply don't like a particular composer's music or musical vernacular. No one in this thread has so far disparaged 20th century music generally or even modernity in music (whatever that may mean) but that doesn't stop them, does it?"
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" get 3 out of 4 NO- votes and you 2 out of 3 - votes for posting Xenakis' METASTASIS. I guess it is 
NO NO NO NO NO to listen to the dude's music???????????? --John"
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"He's very likely a good engineer, and I'm appalled that half his face was shot away in some war or other."
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"People should listen to whom they want. The people proselytizing here are the Xenakis crowd . I have not voted NO for anyone's post as they ALL contribute to the discussion. The NO votes are for the non Xenakis fans. On most threads I do not get many NO votes so it is this crowd on this subject which is ticked off.

(Opening poster) used bad logic and I taught that subject. Musical opinions are one thing- poor thinking does not merit praise but correction."
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"Well these discussions on the modern subject always it seems; begin to deteriorate for lack of basic homework:and conceit in many manners, like the proviso given, that "No I;m not well-versed in modern music experimentation, but I know what I like. . " etc. this music is irritating", "not musically expressive" etc.
Well sorry it disturbed your safe, secure, sanitized cocoon of complaisant existence;

Also musical experimentation has been over for quite some decades now;composers today usually are quite content to sell-out their philosophy(if they ever had one) to the media, pop,culture an accessible universal of gestures;

I'd think that we still have a powerful musical genre, as the string quartet for example,one that still preserves what we can still label unpretentiously as serious art music, Well-use it!

Xenakis yes was an architect, and did apply his knowledge of the physical sciences to his music, but it never stopped there, the compositional process was not strictly dependent on the science,and the math deployed; it was all a means to making a piece of music.Milton Babbitt as well. . .again do a little reading!
the musical gesture, the meaning of the music was always the most important element for Xenakis. . . 
how the music mirrors,represents the globe, what surrounds us, good, bad, indifferent..."
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"All this talk about "truthful" music - totally undefinable, of course, but for me a far less important quality than the equally undefinable quality called "sincerity"....... any talk of that here?"
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"Friend....Even sincerity is NO guarantor for satisfying music which is what I go for. I believe there are some sincere less than good comoposers out there....Regards-John"
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"True, John, but at least they merit a listening to, these sincere second rankers! Perhaps a better word would be "inspired", provided it is meant in the passive voice. For me there's something very cold about Xenakis, and interesting sonorities aren't enough."
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*COMMENTARY: *
The opening post was very innocent, asking "What Xenakis should I listen to?" Then, the abuse begins...

Notice how "John" is super-defensive, as if any enthusiasm about modern music seems to threaten him. He distracts from the discussion by going off into a treatise on logic and argumentation.

I find _particularly offensive_ this seemingly offhand, 'flip' post, by another member:

*"He's very likely a good engineer, and I'm appalled that half his face was shot away in some war or other."*

That's insensitive and callous! Xenakis' face was damaged by shrapnel during WWII when he was in a resistance group fighting the Nazis!

The "long list" was contributed by a member who is very careful to avoid direct confrontations. His contributions are nonetheless joking put-downs of Xenakis.

It's examples like this which demonstrate the lax moderation of that "other" forum, and how gangs of "bullies" can drive members away, especially those who like modern music. Thank God I'm away from that place! And thank goodness for moderators who nip this sort of thing in the bud!


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Xenakis rocks my socks! *dances to Metastasis*


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

"Kind of dissonant. Anyone more brutal sounding than him? I gotta admit, I am kind of looking for the most wild sounds. Listening to his String Quartets performed by the JACK Quartet. What should be my next purchase of his? Any other Composers take Avant-Garde to a more wild sound?"

This guy talks like someone who watches Harold & Kumar and thinks "4/20" is a real holiday. It's as though he was expecting the 20th century avant garde to be like metal, and for Xenakis to be drone doom or something. The bickering that ensues is probably less offensive, except for that off-hand remark about his face, that was appalling.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Maybe it is a reflection of the supposed parlous state of classical music at the moment (I say supposed as rumours of its demise are often just people being alarmist). But people seem to be far too eager to defend classical music from the forces of modernism or something, too worried that Lady GaGa might make a cross over record with Yo-Yo Ma and soon we will all be in a swampy morass where no one can tell the good from the bad. That maybe why an all out defense on the castle classical is mounted whenever Xenakis or Zappa or Einaudi are mentioned, which then leads to a pitched battle with cheap shots on both sides. I find it strange, toxic and detrimental to the image of classical as a whole, just as when someone new to classical music calls a famous bit of classical a song they are slapped down rather than helpfully corrected.

Personally i'm in favour of lax moderation and that people of all ages should grow up.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

quack said:


> ......, too worried that Lady GaGa might make a cross over record with Yo-Yo Ma and soon we will all be in a swampy morass where no one can tell the good from the bad.


We've been wading through that swamp for quite some time.

@millionrainbows, I'm not quite sure what your motivation is for your OP. If it's just a way of illustrating how folks on other forums behave, then I see not much difference between those comments and one's here.
Perhaps it is to stimulate a debate on Xenakis?


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> "Kind of dissonant. Anyone more brutal sounding than him? I gotta admit, I am kind of looking for the most wild sounds. Listening to his String Quartets performed by the JACK Quartet. What should be my next purchase of his? Any other Composers take Avant-Garde to a more wild sound?"
> 
> This guy talks like someone who watches Harold & Kumar and thinks "4/20" is a real holiday. It's as though he was expecting the 20th century avant garde to be like metal, and for Xenakis to be drone doom or something. The bickering that ensues is probably less offensive, except for that off-hand remark about his face, that was appalling.


Well Xenakis is the Classical version of heavy metal. Mozart would be pop. Nothing wrong with that post tbh. But some of the posts after that are ridiculous.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Well Xenakis is the Classical version of heavy metal. Mozart would be pop. Nothing wrong with that post tbh. But some of the posts after that are ridiculous.


Heavy metal is pretty diverse. Some of it sounds like Xenakis, but plenty could be compared to things like Beethoven or Wagner or Varese or Stravinsky or even Gershwin.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> Heavy metal is pretty diverse. Some of it sounds like Xenakis, but plenty could be compared to things like Beethoven or Wagner or Varese or Stravinsky or even Gershwin.


You got a point. Xenakis is more dissonant than most metal. Metal is usually tonal.


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## SottoVoce (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm very surprised how quickly Xenakis caught on to me. Xenakis for some reason just hit me instantly; Even without knowing what was going on in his music I felt myself enjoying it quite a lot. I've felt the same with many other contemporary composers, Babbitt and Boulez included. I never got why people said that these things need to be listened to over and over again to get anything out of them.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> @millionrainbows, I'm not quite sure what your motivation is for your OP. If it's just a way of illustrating how folks on other forums behave, then I see not much difference between those comments and one's here.
> Perhaps it is to stimulate a debate on Xenakis?


My motivation is that I was bullied by these same posters for a sustained duration of time, about six months. Threads derailed, ad hominems, you name it. You don't see the worst of it here, there was much worse.

@Crudblud: I found "John's" arrogant attitude as off-putting as the "face" comment. As far as the "metal" fan who instigated the thread, at least his intent was not malicious.
Plus, some of "Regards-John's" tactics are off-topic, designed to distract.

For example, his response to the sympathizer who said Xenakis' music was "truthful" (meaning sincere artistic intent) was to twist it into a logic theorum: "Yikes --now music is like math true or false - I do not think music is like science eg E=mc2 which is not something I need recorded." Totally unproductive distortion of the idea conveyed. 
The "long list" was a huge distraction. It was these kinds of refusals to engage which drove me away from that toxic environment.

If you doubt me, go try it out for yourself. I'm sure everyone knows the forum in question. If not, the quotes reproduced here could easily be googled by a search engine.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

The guy who annoys me over there is KenOC. He and his groupies think their opinions are fact or someting. Stupid jokes they make.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Music forums are echo chambers of screaming solipsist children.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> My motivation is that I was bullied by these same posters for a sustained duration of time, about six months. Threads derailed, ad hominems, you name it. You don't see the worst of it here, there was much worse.
> 
> @Crudblud: I found "John's" arrogant attitude as off-putting as the "face" comment. As far as the "metal" fan who instigated the thread, at least his intent was not malicious.
> Plus, some of "Regards-John's" tactics are off-topic, designed to distract.
> ...


are any of those people still here today?


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Am I the only person who doesn't know what this "other" forum is?


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Hint. It's where a lot of people buy their stuff from. CD's, DVD's, and etc.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Ah, Walmart!


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

It's bigger than Walmart! It's only availabe online though.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

But Walnut is the biggest place in the world. What you are saying is just crazy talk.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> Am I the only person who doesn't know what this "other" forum is?


I don't either. I must show them *Ligeti* and knock some sense into their heads.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> are any of those people still here today?


Oh, yes; the excerpts were from a very recent thread. You could probably google my name and find it, although only through mention of others, as all evidence of my presence there has been erased.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

What I really need is another post from Harpsichord Concerto telling everybody what he considers crap, and acceptable modern music. After numerous posts, I'm still not clear on his stance. 

And of course he felt it necessary to upload the same Xenakis piece that St. Luke's posted a week ago to demonstrate his indignation. 

His personal taste being the most important part of any discussion, according to him.


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## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I don't either. I must show them *Ligeti* and knock some sense into their heads.


no, me neither...


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Xenakis was running out of creative ideas whenhe tried to use mathematical ones to help him compose music. Very silly. Maths is not music. Music is not maths.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Rapide said:


> Xenakis was running out of creative ideas whenhe tried to use mathematical ones to help him compose music. Very silly. Maths is not music. Music is not maths.


Iono, most of those time signatures look kinda like fractions to me.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I want to become a member of that forum and pretend to be completely oblivious that those wars on atonality have happened. I want to see and take part in one for myself. I think I'll start it as "What is your favourite work by Stockhausen?"


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Rapide said:


> Xenakis was running out of creative ideas whenhe tried to use mathematical ones to help him compose music. Very silly. Maths is not music. Music is not maths.


Well I don't know if his creative mind had run out but mathematically and computer generated art is a fascinating idea. The 50s was an interesting period when we basically had a new, "alien" intelligence among us with the computer, no one was quite sure how quickly it would outstrip us, would they out think us, out moralise us or out create us, that's why there are so many killer robot movies from the time.

Computers are great at sifting through lots of information to find something significant, why not let them loose crunching all the data of music to see if they can find a hidden melody people had overlooked. Computers were able to find, or at least help us visualise some of the hidden art of mathematics such as the mandelbrot set and the lorenz attractor that needed huge calculations to appreciate.









It seemed like an exciting idea to make them compose rather than just using them as another instrument. It certainly hasn't been wildly successful though, computers seem to have much more hardcore tastes than us. As Picasso said: computers are useless they can only give you answers.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> "Kind of dissonant...Listening to his String Quartets performed by the JACK Quartet. What should be my next purchase of his?









XENAKIS - Works for Orchestra

I just ordered this on the strength of the 23 samples from the 3-disc set on the 'site we're not supposed to advertise for' (???).


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I wasn't asking, I was quoting a quote (which may or may not have been a quote prior to that) in the OP. I'm already quite experienced with Xenakis' works.

Also, yes, Tamayo's recordings are great.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I just got the orchestral box last week. Not for the faint-hearted, or Sunday brunch set!


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

On the contrary...the close relationship between math and music was established ca. 500 BCE, most attribute it to Pythgoras. The harmonic series, the monochord etc. The good news for me is that I don't have to be a mathematician to enjoy it. 



Rapide said:


> Xenakis was running out of creative ideas whenhe tried to use mathematical ones to help him compose music. Very silly. Maths is not music. Music is not maths.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

sorry.......



Crudblud said:


> I wasn't asking, I was quoting a quote (which may or may not have been a quote prior to that) in the OP. I'm already quite experienced with Xenakis' works. However, I am glad to see that you ordered the big white square.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

No, I'm sorry, I can appreciate that I must have sounded rather snappy in my response. So please accept my apology, with the knowledge that it wasn't my intention to be so blunt.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

Thanks Crudblud - all's good. I enjoy reading your posts.



Crudblud said:


> No, I'm sorry, I can appreciate that I must have sounded rather snappy in my response. So please accept my apology, with the knowledge that it wasn't my intention to be so blunt.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

millionrainbows said:


> My motivation is that I was bullied by these same posters for a sustained duration of time, about six months. Threads derailed, ad hominems, you name it. You don't see the worst of it here, there was much worse.
> 
> ......


The solution is not to grace your presence in that forum. I deregistered a year back or so, and have never looked back. The majority of members there were okay, but it only takes one rotten apples (or a few) to spoil the bunch. It was a case of attitude problems, and bad vibe. TC seems to be becoming more sectarian now, but I hope it does not go down that path. I really don't, honestly. I value the eclectic nature of this forum, that forum in contrast has more 'cliques' or clique type feel. So thanks to that but no thanks.

The thing is that Xenakis was a major composer from after 1945. That's the consensus, baseline view. Furthermore, unlike Boulez and some others who did some aggressive ideology back then, Xenakis stood aloof from all that bullsh*t and basically stuck to composing music, which is the main role of a composer, not spreading ideology and dogma (music is not a religion, I think). Actually, Xenakis got flack from Boulez, who said his music was crude and primitive. I won't comment on that other than a composer cannot please everybody, he simply has to go on his own path (didn't Beethoven do that? or Brahms? or Schoenberg? or many other composers we respect?).

The other thing is that on that forum, a favourite composer of mine, Australian Peter Sculthorpe was pulled down in a similar way. I defended him but got more ideological drivel so I got right out of there.

& to top it all off, people like Xenakis, Elliott Carter, Sculthorpe, Ligeti, had little time for the ideological 'turf wars' - in part instigated by the likes of Boulez - and they just kept composing, no matter what.

If I remember correctly, Schnittke was also rubbished big time on that forum.

But here, I made a thread on TC of Xenakis, and though it has not had a dozen pages, it has had some good discussion. I don't mind criticism of anything, but I don't like it when it becomes nasty and kind of trollish. I think that its ok to have an ideology but please don't force it on others. & try to argue the moral or whatever high ground and claim impartiality when your view is just as biased as the other person's. Just accept that these things can be controversial, there will be more viewpoints than one or two.

http://www.talkclassical.com/6356-iannis-xenakis-3.html



Crudblud said:


> ... that off-hand remark about his face, that was appalling.


Yes it is apalling. I have seen documentaries on the Greek civil war and also met people here who survived it and got out of Greece to make a new life. It was a tragic situation, and other composers like Mikis Theodorakis where exiled from Greece after that time. I think Xenakis had a price on his head, he had to leave otherwise he would have been killed. SImiliar I think with Theodorakis (who composed many 'serious' works but also the film score for 'Zorba the Greek'), he was a Communist or leftist, and after the civil war a series of right wing dictatorships took power, and those on the left where persecuted. Ironically, Athens was never bombed during the war by the Germans, but it was during the civil war by the British. So who where the oppressors and liberators? Too hard to tell. Same as with any ideology, it hides the truth.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

& further re the Greek civil war and years of turmoil & dictatorships of various kinds there, here is a quote of how *Xenakis* reflected on that time:

_For years I was tormented by guilt at having left the country for which I'd fought. I left my friends-some were in prison, others were dead, some managed to escape. I felt I was in debt to them and that I had to repay that debt. And I felt I had a mission. I had to do something important to regain the right to live. It wasn't just a question of music-it was something much more significant._

& information of the most apalling things done to the other Greek composer I was talking about above,* Theodorakis*:

_He went to Athens in 1943, and became a member of a Reserve Unit of ELAS. During the Greek Civil War, he was arrested, sent into exile on the island of Icaria and then deported to the island of Makronisos, where he was tortured and twice buried alive_.

All of this is on wikipedia, on the articles on these two composers. Its not rocket science to read about the lives of composers and the background this provides (and enrichment) to appreciating their music. I think it may stop people and make them think twice before saying jokes like was quoted by the OP about Xenakis' injury.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

That's a touching defense of Xenakis, Sid. I do consider it to be common decency to respect others.

Another crushing blow I remember from that rotten forum was back when Stockhausen died, and I got the news _on that forum,_ by a thread-starter who used it to say "Too bad he didn't die earlier" in reference to Stockhausen's misinterpreted statement about 9-11. Gee, that really hurt.

Also, I tried to start a thread on Bartok, about Erno Lendvai's book, concerning Fibbinacci numbers, the Golden Mean, and Bartok. That one was harrassed out of existence, because the guy who disagreed had a math degree, and took the whole thing off-topic into a math argument. He supposedly _liked_ Bartok's music, ironically. That same guy began stalking a reviewer off-forum, in the review comments section, about his review mentioning a remastering of a Solti recording. The guy was like a pit bull. This went on from December 2011 to May 2012, continuously. That's why I got so exhausted and burnt-out.

Then, this wacko religious guy from Australia came in, and his tactic was to disagree with any and everything you would say to him. It was incredibly frustrating to be invalidated all the time like that, on threads_ I _had started. Finally, they went into a pages-long argument about *evolution vs. creationism...*this, in a _*music*_ forum! That's when I got out of there.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

millionrainbows said:


> That's a touching defense of Xenakis, Sid. I do consider it to be common decency to respect others...


Well thank you and I meant it, I think these men did things like that, saw horrible things (and some paid the ultimate price), so I do defend him just for fighting for his country. But also of course because I like his music.



> ...
> Also, I tried to start a thread on Bartok, about Erno Lendvai's book, concerning Fibbinacci numbers, the Golden Mean, and Bartok. That one was harrassed out of existence, because the guy who disagreed had a math degree, and took the whole thing off-topic into a math argument...


Well I know the 'Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta' has got at least something to do with the Golden Mean. I remember reading that in a program at a concert of it. I think Bartok applied the mathematics creatively though, not strictly, but I think that if you refer to a book about this topic, its all you can do, have some credible source.

Which brings to my mind the issue of people assuming things and not giving the benefit of the doubt to others. But I am not trying to be saintly, I've done it myself I think, when people are new to a forum they tend to test the waters a bit and maybe throw a few bombshells. But after that dies down, you just get into speaking your mind. & I don't like when people don't accept that without certain 'evidence' as if its a court, I mean that sucks.



> ...He supposedly _liked_ Bartok's music, ironically...


Well I saw similar things there, eg. arguments about what is the 'best' recorded version of something, when ironically the people arguing loved the actual piece of music involved.



> ...That's why I got so exhausted and burnt-out.
> 
> ...


Well you are welcome here and I think you are an asset to have here. Forget that other forum, forget it as you would a bad dream. IT's over, I'm glad it is for me. I don't want negativity in my leisure/hobby time, it defeats the purpose of the joy of music. Its like oxymoronic, a contradiction in terms.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

What is this other forum?!


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What is this other forum?!


There is no other forum. This is the only one on the net.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> There is no other forum. This is the only one on the net.


Finally a direct answer.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

I think this thread deserves to be cut & paste back to the "other forum". The amount of "beetching" and crying are unbelievable, as usual, always from those who are most bitter about "everything", as if the world of classical musical listeners owe them a positive attitude. Just like unemployed people in society who think the rest of society owes them a job or something.


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

Rapide said:


> Just like unemployed people in society who think the rest of society owes them a job or something.


But they _do_ owe me a job!

(Sorry, just had to say that, I'll go away again now ut


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

MaestroViolinist said:


> But they _do_ owe me a job!
> 
> (Sorry, just had to say that, I'll go away again now ut


What nice things are you going to say about Xenakis?


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What nice things are you going to say about Xenakis?


No idea, never listened to his music and I don't intend to. Because if I do I might end up arguing in one of these sorts of threads!

But I'm sure he's great.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

MaestroViolinist said:


> No idea, never listened to his music and I don't intend to. Because if I do I might end up arguing in one of these sorts of threads!
> 
> But I'm sure he's great.


He _is_ great:


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

Nope, not listening to it, 'cos if I do I'll just end up saying something bad and get rotten tomatoes thrown at me. Or any other kind of virtual rotten fruit/vegetables there are.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

MaestroViolinist said:


> Nope, not listening to it, 'cos if I do I'll just end up saying something bad and get rotten tomatoes thrown at me. Or any other kind of virtual rotten fruit/vegetables there are.


Will you listen to it just for me?


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Will you listen to it just for me?


Must I? It was bad enough having to listen to Ligeti. I mean, *Ligeti.* 

EDIT: Ligeti is Fantastic compared with that!!! :lol: Oh but it did have me laughing.

Are you sure that's music?


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> He _is_ great:


Yeah.... CoAG, I don't think _that_ is the best choice for first Xenakis piece to show to the uninitiated XD


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Here's a better one.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Here's the latest conflict over John Cage from that "other" forum.

BTW, "Anonymouse" has an on-line music magazine, and makes frequent trips to Europe to interview composers involved in electronic and musique concréte.

His critic "Rugerri" is an opera buff who really has no interest in this newer music;

"Your Old Pal Jacky" is the poster who derails threads and stalks and harasses others, even in their review comments section; the frequent "deleted by author" posts are his, a "hit and run" technique he uses to make over-the line comments. then "delete and run."

...and "KenOC" pretends to be neutral, while antagonizing others.

"Scarecrow" is a pianist and teacher in the Chicago area, and a very nice fellow. If you read carefully, you will see my name mentioned.

This is all, I suppose, an attempt on these critical posters' part to try to keep the forum "conservative." Let's hope that our forum here never slides into this sort of muck, and that all music, old & new, can be discussed freely in a positive manner, not as a platform for hatred and venom.

http://www.amazon.com/forum/classic...5YQ79OVJBUQ&cdPage=2&cdThread=Tx2WT9ICI6K33IC


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> He _is_ great:


He does seem to have evoked, with remarkable accuracy, the experience of brushing my teeth. Is that what he was going for?


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Wow that forum does suck. Glad I'm here.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Wow that forum does suck. Glad I'm here.


Well said, neo. I'm glad I escaped that black hole of negativity.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> He _is_ great:


Instant classic.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

millionrainbows said:


> Here's the latest conflict over John Cage from that "other" forum.
> 
> ....
> This is all, I suppose, an attempt on these critical posters' part to try to keep the forum "conservative." Let's hope that our forum here never slides into this sort of muck, and that all music, old & new, can be discussed freely in a positive manner, not as a platform for hatred and venom.
> ...


Its the same old story. Insecure people needing to bash what they don't like. Setting up false dichotomies - black versus white type 'debates' - and a whole lot of other bullsh!t stuff. Thankfully not too much of that is here on TC. When it happens I see it stick out like a rotten tooth. So it is less common here, much less common, than 3 years ago when I joined.

Thanks but no thanks to your link. Your description was enough to turn me off. I don't waste my time absorbing venom anyway. I can breathe in some 'wholesome' car fumes when I step out onto the streets here anytime I want anyway. So good luck to them. Let them play their games and tear eachother apart like a pack of dogs. Or a pack of dogs who are 'smart' (makes them better, doesn't it?...NOT).



neoshredder said:


> Wow that forum does suck. Glad I'm here.


Agreed, 110 per cent with that!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> Wow that forum does suck. Glad I'm here.


Well of course since TC benefits from me being here.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I e-mailed "Anonymouse" and urged him to come over to this forum. I would do the same with "scarecrow" if I could contact him. He's on my "myspace," so maybe I'll try there. I haven't visited my "myspace" site for a good while; ever since my computer (Mac/2.3 GHz PowerPC G5) has been deemed "obsolete" for posting sound-files by the music player platform. I'm having problems posting images on facebook as well, and certain YouTube videos will not play for me.

I'm thinking about taking this G5 off-line, and just using it to run LOGIC, as this was why I got it in the first place, and using a cheaper computer (with the latest processor) to go on-line. What a hassle.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> I e-mailed "Anonymouse" and urged him to come over to this forum. I would do the same with "scarecrow" if I could contact him. He's on my "myspace," so maybe I'll try there. I haven't visited my "myspace" site for a good while; ever since my computer (Mac/2.3 GHz PowerPC G5) has been deemed "obsolete" for posting sound-files by the music player platform. I'm having problems posting images on facebook as well, and certain YouTube videos will not play for me.
> 
> I'm thinking about taking this G5 off-line, and just using it to run LOGIC, as this was why I got it in the first place, and using a cheaper computer (with the latest processor) to go on-line. What a hassle.


Are you sure it's the fault of the computer? I use Logic on a MacPro for music but have been using an old G4 running Tiger for facebook and myspace et al.
Wrong thread for this type of discussion- obviously.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Millions,

Another refugee from that other site. I am glad to see that you are doing well. I am using an avatar here but I think you can guess who I am. I am the one who submitted the World War Three post.

I have finally had it with them. They have a "Rule Britannia" thread where they are voting on the best piece of music by a British Commonwealth composer. The only atonal/avant garde work that was nominated was Harrison Birtwhistes' _Earth Dances_. Out of 50 works it was knock out quickly. It is amazing who was never nominated: Bliss, George Lloyd, James MacMillan, and none of the British atonalists (_i.e._ Humphrey Searle.

What really got me was how they ravaged Britten. Six works were nominated by Britten. They have whittled down the numbers to 30 works and only two works by Britten are still in game. _Peter Grimes_ is on the verge of elimination. I can understand some of the people not liking Birtwistle but Britten??? There was one paragon of classical music who thought Britten was too dissonant!?!?!?!?!? BRITTEN IS TOO DISSONANT?????

Even out friend Ken is losing his cool over this. I have had it. It appears that the situation here is saner.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> It is amazing who was never nominated: Bliss, George Lloyd, James MacMillan, and none of the British atonalists (_i.e._ Humphrey Searle.


I'm guessing Tippett didn't get a mention either?

Welcome to the forum, by the way. We're a reasonably friendly bunch, so I hope you enjoy your time here.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

The only Tippett that made the initial 50 was his _Fourth Symphony_. Of course it was one of the first 20 works eliminated.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

millionrainbows said:


> *Here are some exchanges from that "other" forum,* from an attempted Xenakis thread which was shot down. This really makes me appreciate the thoughtful restraint of everyone on this forum. These excerpts are edited somewhat, but the overall exchange is preserved. Notice how it deteriorates...


We appreciate the kind words concerning this forum... but it should be added that (on a very personal note) I get a little queasy about discussion of the shortcomings of other internet forums. We've been on the other side of that sort of sniping- and it doesn't feel too good when we're the target of that kind of discussion.

I'm biased, but I think this the best place of its kind on the web- and we have plenty of reason to be grateful to scores of contributors here. I think we can keep this spirit in mind without making negative comment on other message boards. Could be that the Leadership Team in that other place is hard-working but beleaguered, doing the best they can under their circumstances. That said, if anyone wants to "spread the Good Word" of Talk Classical with others who haven't arrived here yet, we're certainly not going to say no.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> We appreciate the kind words concerning this forum... but it should be added that (on a very personal note) I get a little queasy about discussion of the shortcomings of other internet forums. We've been on the other side of that sort of sniping- and it doesn't feel too good when we're the target of that kind of discussion.
> 
> I'm biased, but I think this the best place of its kind on the web- and we have plenty of reason to be grateful to scores of contributors here. I think we can keep this spirit in mind without making negative comment on other message boards. Could be that the Leadership Team in that other place is hard-working but beleaguered, doing the best they can under their circumstances. That said, if anyone wants to "spread the Good Word" of Talk Classical with others who haven't arrived here yet, we're certainly not going to say no.


I agree with what you have said.

Clarification: I have known Millionrainbows for a few years and I have participated in several forums. The one in question was the most hostle one that I participate in. I have seen first hand the literal hell some of the members of that forum put Millions and others through. According to some veterans of the other forum the managers do a very poor job of monitoring the content unless it really gets our of hand. These forums are affliated with a commercial website that sells music CD's and other merchandise. Their main objective is that the various discussions will help generate sales.

I am an amateur musician. One time some of the more agressive members got so mad at me that they made what appeared to my wife and me a veiled threat that they would complain about me with one of the groups that I played with. I immediately went through the various discussions and deleted all references with the groups that I perform with. In order to let the situation cool down, I did not participate in any discussions there for a few months. Millions may remember when this happened.

I apologize if any of my previous entries are out of line. The last thing I want to do is offend anyone.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

arpeggio said:


> ...According to some veterans of the other forum they do a very poor job of monitoring the content unless if really gets our of hand. These forums are affliated with a commercial website that sells music CD's and other merchandise. Their main objective is that the various discussions will help generate sales....


Its like political parties that have 'stooges' who call up talkback radio programs once in a while to stir the pot. They're paid to do that. Its undisclosed by the parties, of course. Same on those places. If you mention, say, Beethoven's_ Kreutzer sonata_, you suddenly out of the blue get someone recommending a recording for you to get. Even if you don't ask for a rec, they give it. Conflict of interest is what they call it in politics (a nice word for what basically amounts to corruption).


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2012)

Rivalry between messageboards? But aren't they all populated by the same types anyway?


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2012)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Music forums are echo chambers of screaming solipsist children.


I think you'll find the adjectival form is "solipsistic". Just sayin'.....


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

arpeggio said:


> Millions,
> 
> Another refugee from that other site. I am glad to see that you are doing well. I am using an avatar here but I think you can guess who I am. I am the one who submitted the World War Three post.
> 
> ...


Arpeggio, Apergis? Thanks for lending credibility to my experiences over there.

After seeing the "red letter" appear only 17 minutes later, I can see that this sort of collusion is frowned upon. But things are much better here, aren't they? We can post photos, post videos, have visitors, and we will be "rehabilitated" to boot! Three hot meals would be nice...now, I'm back to my Kafka, "In the Penal Colony."


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Millions,

I have always had interesting nicknames: asparagus, applesauce. My favorite has always been Arpeggio, which was my nickname when I served with the 75th Army Band.

Since the "Rule Britannia!" contest drove me off the deep end with that other group, I thought that for the record people would be interested in the final results. One work by Britten, PETER GRIMES, did come in seventh. It was touch and go, but a few Britten die hards save it from early elimination.

The final winner I thought was a good choice: Elgar's ENIGMA. Although the contest was suppose to be what is the greatest, the winner is usually what is the most popular.

It turns out I was not the only one. There were many there who did not understand the anti-Britten animus. Million, our old friend Ken really freaked out and got into it with one of the anti-Britten crowd.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Post number five. I wanted to send a private message to a friend. Since I am new here, I could not do it until I submitted my fifth post. Sorry for the meaningless post.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> We appreciate the kind words concerning this forum... but it should be added that (on a very personal note) I get a little queasy about discussion of the shortcomings of other internet forums. We've been on the other side of that sort of sniping- and it doesn't feel too good when we're the target of that kind of discussion.
> 
> I'm biased, but I think this the best place of its kind on the web- and we have plenty of reason to be grateful to scores of contributors here. I think we can keep this spirit in mind without making negative comment on other message boards. Could be that the Leadership Team in that other place is hard-working but beleaguered, doing the best they can under their circumstances. That said, if anyone wants to "spread the Good Word" of Talk Classical with others who haven't arrived here yet, we're certainly not going to say no.


I must agree with our kind moderator; after all, we may soon be rubbing noses with those same people we are criticizing, should they decide to create a presence in this forum.

It looks like these posts of mine are going to be the least of your problems, once these *others* let us know how they feel about _Elliott Carter_ and other subjects.



Sid James said:


> Its like political parties that have 'stooges' who call up talkback radio programs once in a while to stir the pot. They're paid to do that. Its undisclosed by the parties, of course.


That's true, but some of them might be "rogue free agents" with their own agendas: i.e. "terrorists." Let's see what happens.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Someone posted a link of this site over there. Just warning you.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Yeah I know. One of them is already here and made the observation that this website is too dull.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> Yeah I know. One of them is already here and made the observation that this website is too dull.


Believe arpeggio is referring to me. Is that right? 

I've been here for months...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I like Xenakis.

(5000th post! )


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Apology*



KenOC said:


> Believe arpeggio is referring to me. Is that right?
> 
> I've been here for months...


KenOC,

I apologize for my statement and I regret causing you any embarrassment.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

No need to apologize and I can't be embarrassed. Anyway, I'm busy trying to convince myself that Britten was a lousy composer.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

KenOC said:


> No need to apologize and I can't be embarrassed. Anyway, I'm busy trying to convince myself that Britten was a lousy composer.


Don't bother trying to convince yourself something like that!


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I like Xenakis.
> 
> (5000th post! )


His string quartets are very interesting. Not for everyone for sure. Listening to Tetras now.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> His string quartets are very interesting. Not for everyone for sure.


Yes I agree, although I have an affinity for S.709 (ever since HC ridiculed it some months ago)


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

*million r's*

William, I didn't know you were still posting online until I read Stephen's mention of you over at the other forum. Just dropping by to say hello and let you know that the place isn't the same without you. I hope you're doing well and fighting the good fight.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

PeterFromLA said:


> William, I didn't know you were still posting online until I read Stephen's mention of you over at the other forum. Just dropping by to say hello and let you know that the place isn't the same without you. I hope you're doing well and fighting the good fight.


We don't fight on TC. We take part in intelligent discussions.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> We don't fight on TC. We take part in intelligent discussions.


We do have disagreements. But rareily does it get hostile.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Latest news from the '' A' forum.*



millionrainbows said:


> I must agree with our kind moderator; after all, we may soon be rubbing noses with those same people we are criticizing, should they decide to create a presence in this forum.


I am trying to be careful because the last thing I want to do is aggravate the situation with the 'A' forum.

Something amusing has occurred over there. An individual who is a regular in the 'A' forum had the complaint that too many members of the 'A' forum have come to TC with their 'baggage'. He even stated, "One poor sap has even started a thread (selectively) copying posts from thread from here.. to prove to this new forum how dreadful we are."

He was also grumbling that he was unable to figure out how deactivate his account with TC. He never was very active. In two years he only submitted two posts.

Although I still monitor some of the threads, I have not posted anything in the 'A' forum since October 14th when one of them called me "batcrapcrazy". In spite of the language, the moderators have not deleted that post. Unless the situation there changes I intend to stay away from participating in that forum.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

PeterFromLA said:


> William, I didn't know you were still posting online until I read Stephen's mention of you over at the other forum. Just dropping by to say hello and let you know that the place isn't the same without you. I hope you're doing well and fighting the good fight.


Great to hear from you, PeterFromLA! In your honor, I'm going to get out that $500 Pierrot disc on Hungaraton you recommended. If anybody is shocked, no, I didn't actually pay $500 for it.








The fabled "$500" Schoenberg disc


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

arpeggio said:


> I am trying to be careful because the last thing I want to do is aggravate the situation with the 'A' forum.
> 
> Something amusing has occurred over there. An individual who is a regular in the 'A' forum had the complaint that too many members of the 'A' forum have come to TC with their 'baggage'. He even stated, "One poor sap has even started a thread (selectively) copying posts from thread from here.. to prove to this new forum how dreadful we are."
> 
> ...


You can do what I did, arpeggio: paste the most hurtful statement against you in your avatar. Without credit to its author, of course. We wouldn't want to hurt the feelings of an obviously overweight guy with a super-huge you know what.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> The guy who annoys me over there is KenOC. He and his groupies think their opinions are fact or someting. Stupid jokes they make.


I truly regret any distress my posts have caused you. But I do appreciate knowing I have groupies (though at my age, the joy is somewhat muted).


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> The guy who annoys me over there...He and his groupies think their opinions are fact or someting. Stupid jokes they make.


I suppose you are aware, neoshredder, that, similar to right-wing conservative think-tanks, the particular _unperson _you mentioned used the results from his "contest threads" to compile *DATA* for use against certain *contemporary* music. This "data" was in the form of hard, crunchable numbers submitted by posters like you, who also assumed that their votes were only 'opinions'. Now, if that isn't *"scientific fact,"* then what is?

That's why I don't play those "voting" games. I don't want my opinions to be used as fodder against contemporary music.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I pride myself in being a groupie of both millionrainbows and KenOC (and also the fine poster sometimes known as march). I hope we can all get along! 

Though I haven't always felt that the mods were fair to me, at least they exist and help to keep things relatively calmer here. I have enjoyed both fora - the other has a few very knowledgeable participants, but the whole life here is considerably less stressful for me.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

science said:


> I pride myself in being a groupie of...millionrainbows...I hope we can all get along!


On one condition, science: that you let me kiss your shoe.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> That's why I don't play those "voting" games; it turns opinions into data.


As do elections.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> I suppose you are aware, neoshredder, that, similar to right-wing conservative think-tanks, the particular _unperson _you mentioned used the results from his "contest threads" to compile *DATA* for use against certain *contemporary* music. This "data" was in the form of hard, crunchable numbers submitted by posters like you, who also assumed that their votes were only 'opinions'. Now, if that isn't *"scientific fact,"* then what is?
> 
> That's why I don't play those "voting" games; it turns opinions into data.


I can't delete my old message but since KenOC is on this site now, to be friendlier to him.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Peace*

Ken,

Since we used to clash in the 'A' forum I want to avoid any confrontations. I had made some pretty ill-advised remarks. I realize that I am partially responsible for destroying my reputation in the 'A' forum. Here I want to have a fresh start and I hope I will not make the same mistakes.

I have no misgivings concerning your sincerity or love of music. You are very honest in your beliefs.

One of the things my musical training has taught me is that for everything I know about music there are a gazillion things that I do not know. In spite of your knowledge, there are some serious gaps in your understanding of how classical music works. There are many individuals here who are trained musicians and have stronger musical backgrounds than either of us. I am not going to question any of your observations because it will be difficult for me to be impartial. If you play your cards right you can learn a great deal from the contributors here. Wish you luck.

Arpeggio


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Arpeggio, I am truly puzzled! So far as I know your reputation on the other board is just fine. People will disagree with you sometimes, but that's quite natural. I was quite surprised to see you bow out with what I thought was so little reason.

My musical knowledge is, as you say, incomplete to say the least. Never too old to learn (I hope).


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

arpeggio said:


> ...I had made some pretty ill-advised remarks. I realize that I am partially responsible for destroying my reputation in the 'A' forum. Here I want to have a fresh start and I hope I will not make the same mistakes.


You're being too hard on yourself, arpeggio. The atmosphere in that forum was toxic, without a doubt.

One of the worst culprits was that wacky Aussie, who used a contradiction/invalidation method of slowly grinding away at the ideas presented by others, just for the sake of destroying those ideas. Then, he lapsed back into a religious rant.

Frankly, I was surprised at the timing of my own banning. I had already withdrawn from battle. Apparently my short, pithy answers (with my signature ~giggle~) angered one of the mods.

I also noticed the "Solti Stalker" is back; the guy who attacked the veracity of Santa Fe Reviewer in the forum, then stalked him to his CD reviews, and attacked his honor on the "comments" thread outside the forum. Wow, that guy was like a pit bull!

Nah, don't apologize, arp!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Really, guys, I don't think we should bring the old conflicts here.


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## palJacky (Nov 27, 2010)

I wonder who you could be talking about?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

science said:


> Really, guys, I don't think we should bring the old conflicts here.


I'm just waiting for this thread to be locked down, and putting some perspective on things. I don't feel that arpeggio owes _anyone _here an apology.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

C'mon, people stay up too late and drink and write too much. I'm named too! Doesn't signify in any way and has nothing to do with your "reputation" (or mine, I hope).

I didn't intend to insult your intelligence (which seems unimpaired) but for the life of me I can't understand how you can care about crud like that.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

science said:


> Really, guys, I don't think we should bring the old conflicts here.


Agreed. This forum is not the place to discuss any possible negative aspects of other forums. Many of the recent comments are inappropriate here. Discussing how people, in general, view Xenakis is fine but discussing specific dialogues and experiences from other forums is not. If this trend continues, the thread will be closed.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

This should be a good indicator of what it's possible to "get away with" on this new stage, and the much more limited sustainability of negative interjections, flip comments disguised in humor, and other subtle methods which do not contribute or focus on *thread ideas,* but serve only to attack or squelch other contributors' intents and attempts at presenting ideas about music. What a relief!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I read that the "other" forum is beginning to get...boring. There's a thread about it.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Hooray for TC!!!*

I still occasionally drop in over there. In the past month I only submitted two posts. One in the thread Millions mentioned, "However much I may love this site..."

Several former members explained that because of the lack on real monitors, a small group of reactionaries have succeeded in driving many knowledgeable individuals out of the forum. They appear to have a hostility toward anyone who has had any musical training. They have been successful in basically shutting down most of the discussions concerning atonal/avant garde music. This is what I think is the real motive of the anti-modernist crowd.

I really think that the monitors at TC do a great job. Once I actually got sent the penalty box. I made an inappropriate post in this very thread. Within fifteen minutes it was deleted and I received a justifiable warning. That is why I think that what has happened there will never happen here.

As far as I am concerned TC is the best music forum that I have ever participated in. :trp:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Agreed, with some reservation.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

arpeggio said:


> I still occasionally drop in over there. In the past month I only submitted two posts. One in the thread Millions mentioned, "However much I may love this site..."
> 
> Several former members explained that because of the lack on real monitors, a small group of reactionaries have succeeded in driving many knowledgeable individuals out of the forum. They appear to have a hostility toward anyone who has had any musical training. They have been successful in basically shutting down most of the discussions concerning atonal/avant garde music. This is what I think is the real motive of the anti-modernist crowd.
> 
> ...


I'm intrigued by the notion of being driven out of a forum and I have half a mind to go in 'undercover' to the other place and see for myself.:lol:


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I have copied and saved the List that _million_ quoted in post #1. I'm not sure though, if it is a goldmine or a minefield.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

That environment wasn't that bad for me. But I don't post there that often. This is definitely my preferred forum.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I have copied and saved the List that _million_ quoted in post #1. I'm not sure though, if it is a goldmine or a minefield.


The long list? That was mine (but mostly other people's contributions). As stated in the OP, it is a list of possible reasons people might not like Xenakis. There may, of course, be others. 

The list was originally compiled in response to the question, "Why don't people like the music I like?"


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

KenOC said:


> The long list? That was mine (but mostly other people's contributions). As stated in the OP, it is a list of possible reasons people might not like Xenakis. There may, of course, be others.
> 
> The list was originally compiled in response to the question, "Why don't people like the music I like?"


Upon consideration, the charm of the compilation is in the aggregate. Many of the quotes are toxic by themselves, but all together they create something that works as hyperbole. Thanks.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Upon consideration, the charm of the compilation is in the aggregate. Many of the quotes are toxic by themselves, but all together they create something that works as hyperbole. Thanks.


Oh, the pleasure was mine, Hilltroll72.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> I'm intrigued by the notion of being driven out of a forum and I have half a mind to go in 'undercover' to the other place and see for myself.:lol:


Be my guest. In an entry in this thread I quoted the offending post that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Unfortunately the tone was so offensive, a moderator deleted the post. If a person really wants to see it, maybe a moderator will think it is appropriate to provide a link to the post. It is still there.


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Xenakis rules, bitches! :tiphat:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

chalkpie said:


> Xenakis rules, bitches! :tiphat:


Best post in this thread for a while, although quite wrong of course.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Best post in this thread for a while, although quite wrong of course.


Have you heard his String Quartets? Most notably Tetras.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> I'm intrigued by the notion of being driven out of a forum and I have half a mind to go in 'undercover' to the other place and see for myself.:lol:


Similarly, I used to be intrigued with the idea of getting struck by lightning, until I actually saw a nearby strike.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Similarly, I used to be intrigued with the idea of getting struck by lightning, until I actually saw a nearby strike.


I'd be surprised if a comment directed at me in an internet forum could reduce me to toast. It may though, be bad for my blood pressure.


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## xuantu (Jul 23, 2009)

Crudblud said:


> Here's a better one.


Never heard a note of Xenakis until now, and got quite some information about him here as well! He is indeed a remarkable figure!

The music makes it easy for one to imagine (and live) the horror and depression experienced by Xenakis and the other forum's refugees. Great post!


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I hate that forum.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I still monitor what is going on in the other forum and things have really gone downhill. The reactionaries have succeeded in killing any discussions concerning contemporary music. In the past month there were some entries concerning Sibelius and one thread where there was some activity concerning 20th century songs. At least here there are healthy discussions concerning all types of music.

Edit. I missed a thread where there was an entry about Rachmaninoff. However the last new thread about contempory music was started on December 2, 2012. That was the one on 20th century songs and the last entry was on December 19.

This activity was out of over 150 threads.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

You got a point but it is most annoying when they act all snobby in thinking they know all the best pieces. They even label their threads as best rather than favorite. Kind of arrogant. Anyways, I maybe have done that as newbie but never thought my opinions were superior to others and disrespect others for being different. But there was actually a lot of activity in the 20th Century voting games. Peter-from-La being probably the biggest supporter of 20th Century.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Hey guys, which forum are we talking about?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> Hey guys, which forum are we talking about?


*name deleted due to some forum rule*


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> Peter-from-La being probably the biggest supporter of 20th Century.


AHEM!!

(Just sayin'.)


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

There was a thread which degenerated into constitutional politics. I've seen 'em get rotten in other ways: evolution, with Bible-quoting, etc.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> Hey guys, which forum are we talking about?


It's not a forum you want to be in, little Timmy. Cover your eyes.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.*

As a result of one my rare posts over there, there has been a flurry of activity in a thread concerning atonal/avant-garde music. Somebody made a point that made me feel like a first class jerk.  He stated:

"Unfortunately, modern CM, if it is to be discussed here, has to enter into the rough-and-tumble of unruly posters (myself included!) who may have opinions different from yours. If I bring up Beethoven, it's your right to disagree, however vigorously!

Perhaps modern CM deserves a haven. Sadly, that has been tried. Perhaps modern CM needs adversity? Check these short-lived forums, mentioned earlier.

It's not at all clear that fans of this music can even carry a thread, much less a forum."

I thought to myself, arpeggio you moron. The light bulb came on and I realized something that most of you already know, there are all sorts of forums out there on classical music. I actually found one that has an entire sub-forum dedicated to contemporary music.

It is interesting that, so far, I have been unable to find another classical music forum that is as unruly as the one in the Brazilian Jungle. It is like the WWF of classical music forums.


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