# First piano composition: Fall of Saigon, looking for advice



## Yombie (Jun 16, 2016)

Hi folks. I'm Yombie. Nice to meet you all.

I've been learning how to make music as a hobby when I haven't been painting over the course of 2 years. I'm 29, self taught and unschooled... I'm almost able to read notation but I couldn't count out timing or tell you what metre is if my life depended on it.

Despite that, I really enjoy music, and usually go by feel. Last night I decided to compose my first song on piano. It's called, The Fall of Saigon. I was hoping if you'd all be nice enough to check it out and provide some criticism and critique, perhaps discuss with me the finer points of classical music that I am not yet understanding.... like just how important is metre and timing and scales anyways? Is it okay not to know them and still attempt to make classical music?

My song is located here:

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https://soundcloud.com/yombie%2Fyombie-fall-of-saigon

Thanks!


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi Yombie,
The nice thing about writing music is you can rely on your ear, and dive into music theory if and how you find yourself getting stuck or having questions you can't answer on your own.
If you want to show someone else how to play your music, you do need to be able to write it down in a coherent way, which means knowing at least the basics of how to write rhythms and pitches (including meter and key signatures -- even if you end up using non-standard meters and non-standard key signatures).

With this piece you probably don't need to think much about theory yet, instead, the more pressing issues require you to think like an audience member. You have a nice set of materials that you establish in the first 20-30 seconds, but it seems to me that it says everything it has to say within those 20-30 seconds. It is nice to be in that atmosphere for a while, and some of the rhythmic changes near the end were slightly interesting, but imho still not enough for an 8 minute composition. I'd think about either cutting it down, or bringing in a lot more material in different sections and having the piece really go somewhere.
Or if you really REALLY love the idea of repeating the same idea over and over again with slight variations and making it truly compelling, then go listen to a lot of minimalist composers like Steve Reich and pay attention to how and why and when the repetitions vary.


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## Yombie (Jun 16, 2016)

ty vm, I defintely got what ur saying, the 6 minute version is a lot easier to digest imo, is there any set rules for classical music?
What actually defines the genre?

how many sections/passages does a standard classical piece contain?

definitely I need to adjust how heavy handed the lower keys are played.


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## Samuel Kristopher (Nov 4, 2015)

> like just how important is metre and timing and scales anyways? Is it okay not to know them and still attempt to make classical music?


The good thing about music today is that rules and traditions seem to be less important than simply "doing something interesting", and I think you're on the right track as far as "interesting" goes - the piece you've written certainly has a distinct character which you emphasise through repetition of certain motifs and the relationships between the chords and progressions you've chosen. For a thematic piece (which I assume it is, given the name), it works quite well. Thematic, or programmatic music is more focused on building imagery and character.

The catch, I'd say, it feels like more of a modern folk impromptu than a classical piece. By definition, classical music is that which does follow long established principles, so if that's what you're working towards, it may be worth looking at classical music structures and learning to work within those boundaries 

Here are some tips that might get you in the right direction:



> What actually defines the genre?


Classical Music (defined by Oxford English Dictionary): "Serious music following long-established principles rather than a folk, jazz, or popular tradition."



> is there any set rules for classical music? how many sections/passages does a standard classical piece contain?


This is a subject FAR too broad to answer in one comment. In short - there are loads of different forms, each with different rules and conventions, and each with hundreds of years of composers breaking those rules in various ways and extents, to the point that any scientific and concrete definition of a "classical form" is basically impossible. However, I believe it's important to know the rules before one starts breaking them.

If you can, try to get a hold of Robert Greenberg's lectures through The Teaching Company. They are easily the best and most accessible lectures about music I've ever seen anywhere, and he has loads of different courses about different aspects of music.

Some I'd recommend:

How to listen to and understand Great Music
Understanding the Fundamentals of Music

These are expensive to buy, but worth the price.

In terms of studying forms, I'd recommend learning to read sheet music and doing investigative studies of actual pieces on the piano. Research the form on Wikipedia if you like and read about why this form exists, what rules it has, and listen to various examples on Youtube.

Start with Preludes (probably the simplest compositional form). Then look at Waltzes, Nocturnes, Etudes, and work your way up to Ballades, Rhapsodies, Fantasies, and then to the giants of compositional form: Symphonies, Concertos, Requiems, Operas, Ballets, and anything else I might have missed. Don't start with the latter ones, IMO - they are quite complex and too full of variations and rule-breaking to try and get your head around at the start.

Aside from that, you could also research some of the "sub-forms" that are common features within the above "larger forms".

For example:

Sonata form
Rondo form
Minuet (dated, but still useful for musical education)
Scherzo

The final tip I really have is just this: listen to a LOT of classical music. Listen to everything.

Classical music is a vast and sometimes intimidating field of interest, but be patient  After about a year of study, these things became second nature, though I think learning how to compose within these boundaries is a lifetime goal for almost everyone.

Good luck and hope to hear more of you in the future!


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Samuel Kristopher said:


> listen to a LOT of classical music. Listen to everything.


Yes 

Classical music is not like ambient, designed to be put on in the background while people do other things. It's not like pop or theatre, where the music is there to support lyrics. In classical music the musical ideas themselves are the main event and worth listening to. Even if there happen to be words.

So as you listen you can start developing a sense of what is going on musically, where the sections are etc. Shorter pieces are easier to keep track of. Longer pieces show you how to keep a long piece interesting.


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## Samuel Kristopher (Nov 4, 2015)

And trust people when they say, don't start out trying to compose a symphony. It might sound exciting and I know the feeling myself of wanting to jump straight into the deep end, but symphonies are basically a confluence of almost all compositional techniques, and by writing a symphony, a composer is effectively saying: "Here I am, I'm ready to be taken seriously as a composer."


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## Yombie (Jun 16, 2016)

Samuel Kristopher said:


> The good thing about music today is that rules and traditions seem to be less important than simply "doing something interesting", and I think you're on the right track as far as "interesting" goes - the piece you've written certainly has a distinct character which you emphasise through repetition of certain motifs and the relationships between the chords and progressions you've chosen. For a thematic piece (which I assume it is, given the name), it works quite well. Thematic, or programmatic music is more focused on building imagery and character.
> 
> The catch, I'd say, it feels like more of a modern folk impromptu than a classical piece. By definition, classical music is that which does follow long established principles, so if that's what you're working towards, it may be worth looking at classical music structures and learning to work within those boundaries
> 
> ...


Wow, a veritable library of knowledge you've given me right off the bat, thanks so much!
I'm already frothing at the mouth at the prospects of learning and understanding.

It seems as if I landed in the most extreme opposite spectrum of what makes classical music classical, but perhaps because of this I can understand the concept even more so now thanks to some clarification on your behalf.


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## Yombie (Jun 16, 2016)

hreichgott said:


> Yes
> 
> Classical music is not like ambient, designed to be put on in the background while people do other things. It's not like pop or theatre, where the music is there to support lyrics. In classical music the musical ideas themselves are the main event and worth listening to. Even if there happen to be words.
> 
> So as you listen you can start developing a sense of what is going on musically, where the sections are etc. Shorter pieces are easier to keep track of. Longer pieces show you how to keep a long piece interesting.


Thank you very much, my only goal was to try and describe/translate the images and emotions of the fall of saigon into music. I'm very much a traditional painter first, so I thought I'd try to apply my same methodologies of approaching visual art and instead portray it with music.


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## Yombie (Jun 16, 2016)

Samuel Kristopher said:


> And trust people when they say, don't start out trying to compose a symphony. It might sound exciting and I know the feeling myself of wanting to jump straight into the deep end, but symphonies are basically a confluence of almost all compositional techniques, and by writing a symphony, a composer is effectively saying: "Here I am, I'm ready to be taken seriously as a composer."


Agreed, I didn't dare call it anything like a prelude or symphony etc, in fact I had a hard time even considering it classical or even jazz. I'm definitely wading into the depths of classical with a timid approach. It's kind of really fun, I'm finding out the names of things I didn't really know had names like inversions, I wish I hadn't started so late in the game.

Thanks for your considerations and input!


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## Yombie (Jun 16, 2016)

Can anyone give me some direction in which I could take this piece to further refine it?


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## Samuel Kristopher (Nov 4, 2015)

Judging by the name, it sounds like you're interested in thematic music. If you want to stick to classical form, one of the most thematic forms to write in is called a Symphonic Poem. Check out examples by Liszt, Lyadov, Dvorak, and Rimsky-Korsakov for great examples of a Symphonic Poem, and read its entry on Wikipedia, as well as the entries of the Symphonic Poems you listen to (learning about individual pieces is as important as the form!) 

Although it takes the name of "symphonic", it's anything but a symphony. It's basically a poem in classical music, often influenced but not necessarily based on a poem itself or some prose text. Take Dvorak's "Water Goblin" for example, or Lyadov's "Enchanted Lake". They don't really have any strict rules about structure either, which makes them a nice form for practicing harmony without any pressure, and it helps you to illustrate bigger ideas using only the sounds of an instrument. 

Good luck!


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## Yombie (Jun 16, 2016)

Totally get it, I tried to do just that I think.
I wanted to describe bombs, invasion, marching groundtroops, running away, oppression... there's almost "passages" where the image I tried to describe are almost scenes in my mind. But in technical terms, should I change the notes of the marching to something else, or should I implement a more defined transition (bridge) between the calmer stuff and the more cinematic scenes? Should I use more flats, change chords? etc?


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