# Can someone please explain to me these stupid bull festivals in Spain?



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Don't read me wrong. I love Spain. I love Flamenco, Manchego cheese, paella, Dalí, Picasso, Cervantes, Plácido Domingo, Rioja and Priorat wines, Spanish soccer, their beautiful language, and I think their women are rather cute. I've visited Barcelona and Madrid and they're fascinating cities.

But what in the hell is wrong with these folks and their summer bull festivals like the one in Pamplona???

I was listening to this radio show today, and they were talking about a bull that has killed three people already, in 2006, 2008, and 2011. Apparently when a bull kills a human being, they learn fast and they get to know how to do it again. This is why bulls that have "blood on their horns" are usually retired from these summer festivals in which they're let loose to pursue the fleeing humans on the streets.

However this particular bull is very popular since he has maimed, killed, and injured so many that he adds emotion to the mix. His owner rents him for $10,000 for each appearance. The beast soldiers on, maims as many as he can, gets people to be crippled, to struggle between life and death in hospitals, and three of them have died already. His owner says, "as long as people are willing to pay tickets to the municipalities to participate in the bull street festivals, the municipalities are willing to rent my bull. This is such a good bull that he should be cloned."

I mean, soldiers risk their lives but get paid to do so. Sportsmen, daredevils, etc., also get paid.

But here we have thousands of Spaniards who want to *pay* out of their pockets to be chased by ferocious bulls down the streets and risk life and limb.

If I'm paying, I'd rather have these bulls as a medium-rare steak on my plate. I wouldn't care for their horns; especially, I wouldn't want their horns ripping off my belly and spreading my guts around.

I mean, how stupid is this, for Pete's sake? These three young people who perished under the piercing horns of this assassin bull, didn't hey have loved ones, relatives, a future? Are three young human lives cheap enough that people won't care for the consequences, as long as they have their thrills and can flee for their lives with these bulls in hot pursuit? And people are willing to pay for this? Pay to get maimed and killed?

schigolch, other Spaniards, please explain this madness to me. I mean, it's in the culture, etc., I get that, but we're in the 21st century, Spain is a modern country, can't this medieval practice be curbed? I just can't comprehend it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well the Spanish are simply CRAZY, didn't you know? :lol:

Anyway, this reminds me of a dvd my sister recently got & watched, I saw bits of it as well. It's about the world's most dangerous rituals. Rev. Pete Owen Jones went around the world to film & sometimes take part in these crazy things people do in the name of religion, tradition, or whatever. One of the memorable bits was these Japanese guys (males only, ladies were not allowed to do this) running at night with torches down these ancient jagged steps. The steps were in their hundreds as were the participants. Many got trampled on the ground underneath the surging crowd's feet & probably seriously injured. (HERE is that dvd).










So the Spanish may well be crazy, but they're not the only ones! The most "crazy" thing I can think of here Down Under is the Henley-on-Todd regatta, near Alice Springs, Northern Territory - a "regatta" on a dry riverbed. Crazy but pretty harmless.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I can understand crazy and harmless fun.
But deadly fun???


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well, as I said, people do this kind of thing all over the world. Like the Japanese example I talked about. It's just that the Spanish have evolved it almost to an artform, a spectacle, a ritual.

But the difference between the others & what happens in Spain is this. Like animal rights activists (although I'm not one of them), I have more concerns for the bulls than the people doing this. The bulls basically have no choice. This kind of thing & bullfighting in general, is very cruel to these animals. 

I understand that in Portugal, after the bullfight, the bull is not killed. Someone told me this years ago. Am I correct on that? If so, a first step away from what the Spanish are doing is to have them at least not kill the bulls at the end. I think that would be an improvement...


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

First off, the fact that they pay the ticket seems irrelevant for the whole thing. What they put on the line, their health and life, has no price anyway.

Medieval or not, again - irrelevant. In 21th century soldiers shoot people like in a video game (wikileaks shooting video) and people watch on TV invasion on some country, like it is a movie.



> Are three young human lives cheap enough that people won't care for the consequences, as long as they have their thrills and can flee for their lives with these bulls in hot pursuit?


Seems to me that you are implying that people who have their thrills are responsible for those deaths? Nobody forced them to participate, no one even encouraged them by, let's say, paying them. In fact, if someone paid them to do so (something that seems to me you don't have a problem with, correct me if I'm wrong), I think that kind of encouragement should be condemned, not their free will to risk.

As we can see, extreme sports and "adrenalin addiction" are not as new as some might think. It's all yet another example of people risking a lot for a big thrill. I wouldn't participate, nor encourage people to do it, but would watch from a safe distance. Same as I would do with UFC/K-1 and such.

edit: 
Let me note that I didn't defend it from "cultural thing" standpoint. I see it as just another extreme sport, although older than others...


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Sorry, chaps, I'm not interested in the least about bullfighting, or running bulls on the streets, so I'm not the right guy to elaborate on this.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

graaf said:


> First off, the fact that they pay the ticket seems irrelevant for the whole thing. What they put on the line, their health and life, has no price anyway.
> 
> Medieval or not, again - irrelevant. In 21th century soldiers shoot people like in a video game (wikileaks shooting video) and people watch on TV invasion on some country, like it is a movie.
> 
> ...


 My emphasis on the "paying for it" aspect was just to underline the sheer stupidity of it. Of course it would be just as stupid if free. About soldiers being paid, a professional soldier is at least trying to make a living, maybe for lack of other better options. You know that I'm a pacifist and don't endorse war either - my phrasing was just a way of putting it.
Why do you say that being this a medieval practice is irrelevant? I think it's about time that we as a species evolve away from these things. I didn't imply that the spectators are responsible for the deaths - I was rather focusing on the individual stupidity of the participants - like the Darwin aware - the people who die in these events appropriately remove themselves from the gene pool.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Well, as I said, people do this kind of thing all over the world. Like the Japanese example I talked about. It's just that the Spanish have evolved it almost to an artform, a spectacle, a ritual.
> 
> But the difference between the others & what happens in Spain is this. Like animal rights activists (although I'm not one of them), I have more concerns for the bulls than the people doing this. The bulls basically have no choice. This kind of thing & bullfighting in general, is very cruel to these animals.
> 
> I understand that in Portugal, after the bullfight, the bull is not killed. Someone told me this years ago. Am I correct on that? If so, a first step away from what the Spanish are doing is to have them at least not kill the bulls at the end. I think that would be an improvement...


Yes, I believe that in Portugal they don't kill the bulls. This sort of street festival in Spain doesn't seem to be cruel to the animals themselves, and they don't kill these animals either (like I said, the owner repeatedly rents his bull).


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Bullfighting is not medieval, it is Roman. The Romans build the arenas for bloodsports. They loved the thrill of gladiators hacking each other to a slow death, the same with animals, the same with an obscure group of believers called 'Christians'. Hail, Caesar! Yes, it is fascist, the Romans like to watch somebody else's death agony, like the fascists of the modern times.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

TxllxT said:


> Bullfighting is not medieval, it is Roman. The Romans build the arenas for bloodsports. They loved the thrill of gladiators hacking each other to a slow death, the same with animals, the same with an obscure group of believers called 'Christians'. Hail, Caesar! Yes, it is fascist, the Romans like to watch somebody else's death agony, like the fascists of the modern times.


 Gee, folks, I used medieval as an adjective, meaning a retrograde and barbaric practice.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> I get that, but we're in the 21st century, Spain is a modern country


Yes, they should finally get rid of their parochial, primitive habits and instead take care of homosexual rights or something. And instead of performing medieval, backwarded rituals let them enjoy good visit in McDonalds. We're in XXIst century and what these muffled heads are thinking?


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Gee, folks, I used medieval as an adjective, meaning a retrograde and barbaric practice.


The medieval times on the contrary have courtly love, a bit like you feel for .....


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Yes, they should finally get rid of their parochial, primitive habits and instead take care of homosexual rights or something. And instead of performing medieval, backwarded rituals let them enjoy good visit in McDonalds. We're in XXIst century and what these muffled heads are thinking?


 Yep, I'd rather have my bull inside my hamburger than goring me to death.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I mean, it's in the culture, etc., I get that, but we're in the 21st century, Spain is a modern country, can't this medieval practice be curbed? I just can't comprehend it.


Not long ago, we were discussing the old burqa and you suggested something about superiority of culture and all that ...

Anyway, it looks entertaining enough on TV. Personally, I think this is a form of "combat sport" between men and the poor bull. I mean "combat sport" like boxing is widely enjoyed where two folks knock the crap out of each other.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Not long ago, we were discussing the old burqa and you suggested something about superiority of culture and all that ...
> 
> Anyway, it looks entertaining enough on TV. Personally, I think this is a form of "combat sport" between men and the poor bull. I mean "combat sport" like boxing is widely enjoyed where two folks knock the crap out of each other.


 Cultures evolve. I have nothing against cultural evolution. I meant of course that the Spaniards themselves should do something about it so I'm not implying any superiority of other cultures over theirs. Besides, suicide for thrills is stupid in any culture. As for the entertainment value, we should interview the parents of the three youths who got killed.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

*Las Arenas, Barcelona*



















The arena of Barcelona, reopened in 2011 as a shopping centre


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

TxllxT said:


> The arena of Barcelona, reopened in 2011 as a shopping centre


That's it - they've got a shopping mall, that means they're as civilized as one can be! 

PS
just kidding, Alma, just kidding


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

It's a thrill and/or macho thing, I guess. 

Let them have their fun. People go mountain-climbing and skydiving and stuff even though they know that some get killed every now and then. I would never risk my life for something like that, but some people obviously want to. 

A modern country can surely afford to keep some traditions, as long as they are voluntary. Unless it wants to win the Most Constistently Modern Country Award, which some countries actually seem to compete for, although it doesn't exist.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

No one forces those idiots to run with the bulls. Too Dumb To Live = Darwin Award.

I'm too much of a Hemingway fan to dislike bull fight itself. Want to see one live before it gets banished.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

At least this is apparently only once annually. The expanding success of various public martial acts, wrestling and boxing spreading from the US in particular seem to be a valid comparison to make; boxing has a lot of dead people and ruined lives on its account, yet it gets much more uncritical PR.

The bullfighting and acrobat games with bulls goes further back than just Roman times - at least to the Minoans who performed games very similar to the Pamplona ones, albeit in a more ceremonial way, as can be see on the wikipedia article on bull-leaping, for instance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull-leaping

I didn´t know that it is very popular in Southern France as well ...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> At least this is apparently only once annually. The expanding success of various public martial acts, wrestling and boxing spreading from the US in particular seem to be a valid comparison to make; boxing has a lot of dead people and ruined lives on its account, yet it gets much more uncritical PR.
> 
> The bullfighting and acrobat games with bulls goes further back than just Roman times - at least to the Minoans who performed games very similar to the Pamplona ones, albeit in a more ceremonial way, as can be see on the wikipedia article on bull-leaping, for instance
> 
> ...


Boxing spreading from the US???

Oh I see. Certainly it must come from the evil United States, right?

Here is what the reality is, though:

"The birth hour of boxing as a sport may be its acceptance by the ancient Greeks as an Olympic game as early as 688 BC. Modern boxing evolved in Europe, particularly Great Britain."


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Well, here in Canada, they have this ritual where young boys put on body armour, wield large sticks, and physically bash each other around while skating on ice at high speeds. If this isn't violent enough, two of the boys will "drop the gloves" and get into a bare-knuckle fistfight that can easily degenerate into a beating, with no rules. The referees often let this fighting go on without stopping it, reasoning that "the kids are just letting off steam". Every year, boys deal with physical injuries and concussions due to this game - in fact, the game's biggest star has not recovered from a concussion that he took back in midwinter. The better players are removed from their homes at age 16 (and occasionally even younger) and boarded in another town, with minimal expectations that they finish high school, since they're now playing at the junior level. Approximately 1 boy in 10,000 will actually make a living at the game. The rest, well, good luck to you...

So I don't think the Spaniards are that strange with their bullsports. Or the Americans, getting teenage boys to put on hot equipment in Alabama in July and spending the afternoons in high-school football practice. Every year a few of those kids die from hyperthermia. 

But it's not as if there's a draft that forces these kids into it, or that we're in some tribal society that insists that you won't be a real man unless you steal horses from the neighbouring tribe and then get circumsized with a sharp stone when you're 14 years old. Now THAT would be a scary adolescence!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

> Boxing spreading from the US???


I think it is fair to say that the main iconic figures of the boxing industry and the most important promotion force in it in the late 20th-21st century has been mainly US, cf Ali, Frasier, Marciano, Tyson etc. and their world wide TV success. We´ve had many films heroizing boxing in combination with the "American Dream" also, cf. Eastwood and of course Stallone etc. Even Norman Mailer loved it.

It is very hard not to think the same of wrestling. We had nothing of this here 10 years ago, then US television series were imported by the dump channels, and now it´s gaining popularity.

Of course there is some general psychology and entertainment value involved that makes it attractive to many people, which is not "American" per se. Ritualistic violence has a long history. But had boxing not been popular in the US, it is doubtful that it would have spread so much.

Wikipedia seems to underline this as regards professional boxing 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_boxing

The Swedish/Norwegian/Icelandic way to handle it, prohibiting professional boxing, seems to me to be the right way to go.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

waldvogel said:


> Well, here in Canada, they have this ritual where young boys put on body armour, wield large sticks, and physically bash each other around while skating on ice at high speeds.


Just awful. I also hear that some people, despite clear risks of hearing impairment, purposely subject themselves to rapidly vibrating diaphragms, some even putting them _in their ears_, purely for their own amusement! What next?

[Edit] Noticed you're a fellow Canadian. You're OK, then.

[2nd Edit] Noticed you actually said so in the very first sentence. I also don't like hockey.

[3rd Edit] I do actually read posts, I just don't have very good comprehension.

[4th Edit] I should read more, but I don't like that.

[5th Edit] Books, I mean, literature and the like. I do read forum posts and blogs and stuff.

[6th Edit] Oh.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

On a macho-based stupidity scale the bull running in Pamplona is not really much different to what happens in the UK. The Gloucestershire cheese rolling competition or those small-town street 'games' that are more akin to murderball - as the administration in the UK is obsessed with health & safety issues I'm amazed events like that are still legal (although I've nothing against them if that's what floats their boats).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Yeah, cheese rolling came to mind immediately as well, when reading Alma's opening post. Another thing is the annual tradition of wife carrying races in the Scandinavian countries, but at least that's not dangerous, as far as I know...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

waldvogel said:


> Well, here in Canada, they have this ritual where young boys put on body armour, wield large sticks, and physically bash each other around while skating on ice at high speeds. If this isn't violent enough, two of the boys will "drop the gloves" and get into a bare-knuckle fistfight that can easily degenerate into a beating, with no rules. The referees often let this fighting go on without stopping it, reasoning that "the kids are just letting off steam". Every year, boys deal with physical injuries and concussions due to this game - in fact, the game's biggest star has not recovered from a concussion that he took back in midwinter. The better players are removed from their homes at age 16 (and occasionally even younger) and boarded in another town, with minimal expectations that they finish high school, since they're now playing at the junior level. Approximately 1 boy in 10,000 will actually make a living at the game. The rest, well, good luck to you...
> 
> So I don't think the Spaniards are that strange with their bullsports. Or the Americans, getting teenage boys to put on hot equipment in Alabama in July and spending the afternoons in high-school football practice. Every year a few of those kids die from hyperthermia.
> 
> But it's not as if there's a draft that forces these kids into it, or that we're in some tribal society that insists that you won't be a real man unless you steal horses from the neighbouring tribe and then get circumsized with a sharp stone when you're 14 years old. Now THAT would be a scary adolescence!


Well, at least those young boys with the body armour and the sticks make several millions per year to do it.
Not so with the folks at the street festivals in Spain.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> I think it is fair to say that the main iconic figures of the boxing industry and the most important promotion force in it in the late 20th-21st century has been mainly US, cf Ali, Frasier, Marciano, Tyson etc. and their world wide TV success. We´ve had many films heroizing boxing in combination with the "American Dream" also, cf. Eastwood and of course Stallone etc. Even Norman Mailer loved it.
> 
> It is very hard not to think the same of wrestling. We had nothing of this here 10 years ago, then US television series were imported by the dump channels, and now it´s gaining popularity.
> 
> ...


Hey, since we're a huge country with a vast population that enjoys significant purchasing power and with a strong entertainment industry that produces films and pop music and stuff for the world's consumption, many things good and bad "spread" from us. But we haven't created many of them.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

> But we haven't created many of them.


Hey, please read my posts. I didn´t say that; that was your first assumption, and you had an elaborated answer in my second post.

I agree with your very general last statement, provided that we can also agree that the powerful US export of cultural products or sporting culture can at times be given a twist influenced by American conditions, attitudes or sport policies.

Supposedly you can also agree that the American dream is an important, if certainly not undisputed, part of US identity, as seen for instance in the rhetoric of many US politicians and epic films.

As regards the history of boxing, it is once again possible to refer to the Minoans:
http://www.historywiz.com/galleries/boxingboys.htm

Charles D. Herberger has written an interesting book about the possible original calendar symbolism and religious content of these bull´s and sporting games, "The Riddle of the Sphinx".


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

It's irrational, but culturally valuable. As is most culture I suppose.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Spanish have THIS in Malaga, Aussies have THIS near Goulburn...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Yeah, cheese rolling came to mind immediately as well, when reading Alma's opening post. Another thing is the annual tradition of wife carrying races in the Scandinavian countries, but at least that's not dangerous, as far as I know...


Wife-carrying races!!! I wonder if that's a legacy of when the Danish and Norwegian raiders came and carried away our Anglo-Saxon ones??? Maybe the danger quotient depends on how big she is. :devil: Tell you something, Sid - your 'rules' football is a bit urgent as well. I don't know if you remember but back in the 80s there were a couple of representative matches between an Aussie 'rules' team and an Irish Gaelic football side - in one match in Melbourne they played the one sport and in one match in Dublin they played the other seeing both have a certain amount of common ground. They didn't go about things half-heartedly either - they really tore into each other and there were LOADS of scraps.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Yes, *elgar's ghost*, those types of "biffo" matches were common decades ago, they're legendary (though I was too young then to notice). Now the rules have been tightened up to avoid these kinds of blood-bath matches. In those types of situations, there was blood all over the green. Similar to that infamous Hungary vs. USSR water polo match in the 1956 Melbourne Olympics - the pool was red from all the blood, apparently.

But in any case, today some of our sportsmen get up to more "hairy" things off the field than on. Esp. if you read our tabloids. There was a swimmer here disqualified from one of the recent Olympics for causing head injury to a guy he had a fight with in a bar. His name was Nick D'Arcy. These things used to be common around here, but I think that case discouraged this kind of behaviour, because it can hurt a sportsman's career badly...


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2011)

*Sorry to regress* but when I see anyone get hurt by the Bulls I am insanely happy, the Afghans used to chain bears on a short chain and set Dogs upon them but first they pulled out the Bears Claws, makes ya proud to be human eh


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Yep, it's "payback." Which reminds me of a bit from the memoirs of Indonesian writer & political prisoner Pramoedya Ananta Toer. He was imprisoned on a remote island by Soeharto for political reasons. He was much like Nelson Mandela, spent decades like this. They were required to do hard labour, building roads, etc. on the island. The prisoners were worked to death and the bulls used in the work were also exhausted and stressed. As a result, one of them mauled to death the very person who was looking after them, feeding them, etc. It was a reaction from all the stress. When these animals are stressed out and confused, they can do heaps of damage...


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