# Film/Game music as Classical



## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

Use of the word Classical meaning the era of music and Classical the blanket term for all era's. Most people seem to use the latter, a blanket term meaning all eras. Unless they need to define it further. So we could end it there, classical and contemporary classical. But here's some fun arguments.

Argument # 1: It is film music not classical music. This raises a few questions. What does a piece by Tchaikovsky become when used in a film? How can something entirely classical from conception, production and performance not be classical? What is a film 'sound'? 
There is no such thing as a film, soundtrack or game sound. The piece always falls into a genre of some sort. I did a test and took a handful of genres. The piece To Zanarkand only fitted into classical music. Of course you could say it would fit into soundtrack or new age but that is everything.

Argument # 2: Its not classical its pop music. To Zanarkand doesn't have lyrics, upbeat sound, drums or a backing. It isn't really popular enough to be popular music. But surely Beethoven's 9th symphony is as pop as it gets?

Argument # 3: It sounds cheesy, thin, derived. If it's not classical how can be derived from a classical piece or even plagiarism. It must have some classical merit than surely? A piece composed in the style of Mozart.

Argument # 4: The shape shifting sheet music. This is when you play a piece to someone and they applaud it and label it classical. Than a week later you let them know it is from a video game soundtrack. Now it is not classical at all.

Argument # 5: The piece did not start off as classical. This is one of the stronger arguments. However To Zanarkand for example did start off as a piano nocturne. So the argument collapses. But if we take ''One Winged Angel'' which is a mixture of rock and classical it makes more sense. There have been occasions in the past where composers have taken a non-classical work and arranged it for orchestra; this was than known as classical. For example Vaughan William's arrangement of Greensleeves. There is some tolerance if someone takes the time or enthusiasm enough to arrange a piece and construct if for classical orchestra it is welcome. And is now technically classical. If you turn a pop song into an opera it is no longer a pop song mathematically. So it falls into being a bizarre classical piece with an odd history.

Argument # 6: Violins doesn't make it classical. I would agree with this. However film and game music is composed entirely in classical form and for orchestra or solo instruments. The instruments point is interesting. If you have a classical piece performed by electric guitars it can no longer be classical. Since the definitions for classical music often include certain instruments only.

Argument # 7: It's not complex or composed for the purpose of music. There's a large area for interpretation with complexity whether its complex orchestra or objects dropped on a piano with pencils stuck in it. I don't understand the 'only allowed to be for some occasions and never receive payment to make it classical' argument. Many composers got paid for their music and composed specifically for a ballet or opera or movie soundtracks in the case of modern Dmitri Shostakovich and Erik Satie.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

LordBlackudder said:


> Argument # 6: Violins doesn't make it classical. I would agree with this. However film and game music is composed entirely in classical form and for orchestra or solo instruments. The instruments point is interesting. *If you have a classical piece performed by electric guitars it can no longer be classical. Since the definitions for classical music often include certain instruments only.*


Wait, are you making this argument, or are you saying others are? Because I think it's wrong. A Classical piece wouldn't cease to be Classical just because it's played on certain intruments.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Classical music doesn't exist.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

.................................................................


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Nope .


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2016)

GreenMamba said:


> Wait, are you making this argument, or are you saying others are? Because I think it's wrong. A Classical piece wouldn't cease to be Classical just because it's played on certain intruments.


Presumably there can therefore be no classical works composed for electric guitar.

But don't tell Tristan Murail.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2016)

Not classical, moving on lol.

Now if we could stop perpetuating this silly and unfounded inferiority complex by desperately claiming that something is what it is not...


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## Boldertism (May 21, 2015)

There's a word that comes to my mind with most game and film music, "cheap". But it's okay if they're cheap, because they're not meant for straight listening, they're supposed to accompany a scene. Someone on this board once pointed out that the main reason people like film and game music is that they attribute it to a film or game that they like, which I think is true.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Sometimes the music can be perfectly fine, separately from the movie or game, just like other music from other genres can stand on its own. You just have to accept it on its own terms without comparing to classical music.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Boldertism said:


> Someone on this board once pointed out that the main reason people like film and game music is that they attribute it to a film or game that they like, which I think is true.


It's an important reason, but personally I can think lots of games that I've played that I've liked a lot but didn't care about the music (even when I had much less knowledge about music and had much more naive perspective on things). There has to be something in the music itself as well. Also it's not just me, some popular games are known for their music, others aren't....


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

LordBlackudder said:


> Argument # 1: It is film music not classical music. This raises a few questions. What does a piece by Tchaikovsky become when used in a film? How can something entirely classical from conception, production and performance not be classical? What is a film 'sound'?
> There is no such thing as a film, soundtrack or game sound. The piece always falls into a genre of some sort. I did a test and took a handful of genres. The piece To Zanarkand only fitted into classical music. Of course you could say it would fit into soundtrack or new age but that is everything.
> 
> Argument # 2: Its not classical its pop music. To Zanarkand doesn't have lyrics, upbeat sound, drums or a backing. It isn't really popular enough to be popular music. But surely Beethoven's 9th symphony is as pop as it gets?
> ...


Okay, here we go...

Argument #1: A piece by Tchaikovsky when used in film is a piece of classical music being inserted into a film...not film music. It wasn't written as film music. People seem to have some trouble understanding that the composition methods, aesthetic, and pretty much everything else is different between classical music and film music. For example, in a film score you often have a juxtaposition of many unrelated sections that just keep going one after another with no reference to each other. In a classical composition this wouldn't make any sense because the different sections don't support each other at all and it would just end up sounding like an incoherent mess. It makes perfect sense in a movie score because the structure is not based on musical principles but on the structure of the movie.

Argument #2: Pop music is not defined as having lyrics or an upbeat sound or drums....obviously this would make a lot of classical music pop music... I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that some people define film music as "pop" music because, among other reasons perhaps, film music is more likely to use block chord methods of harmony rather than voice leading methods of harmony that have their roots in polyphonic thinking.

Argument #3: Uh, don't really understand what point you are trying to make...but okay..moving on.

Argument #4: Look, I don't know who you are playing pieces of music to, but if they have trouble telling the audible difference between a film/video game music style (especially contemporary film music) and a classical style that's on them. It says nothing about the difference. I think the audible difference between a Wagner Opera and the soundtrack to Skyrim are pretty damn obvious and I wouldn't mistake the Skyrim for classical even if I didn't already know it wasn't classical beforehand.

Argument #5: Er What?? Again, I don't really understand what you are saying. But if I'm understanding you correctly, no, if you arrange a Nirvana song for a "classical orchestra" it's still not classical music. To turn a pop song into classical music it would have to be extremely transformative in nature. I would consider this, for example, classical music based on a pop song: 




Argument #6: Uh no, film music doesn't have "classical Structure". Not it all. Why would it? The structure of a movie score must necessarily be based on the structure of the movie. I don't know where you get this idea that film or video game music is based on classical structures or classical anything really...

Argument #7: It doesn't have to be complex to be classical, but I would say good Classical has to be substantial enough to support itself as abstract music. Many film/video game scores, do not.

So ya...sorry bruh, your arguments don't really hold up and it seems like you have quite a lot of confusion as to what the general properties of classical music are.

I'm actually a little saddened by these posts. It seems like many people don't really realize what makes classical music so special if they think video game scores are a good representation of it


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm curious what people who think that video game music is shallow/cheap/whatever think about this:


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Dim7 said:


> I'm curious what people who think that video game music is shallow/cheap/whatever think about this:


Just to add to this... (And I love your selection!) One of my favorite games, but I always loved this piece the best! Maybe I'm just a sucker for guitar, but in any case... That dungeon to get the ice arrows though... Ugh, screw that. Worse than the water temple, and that's really saying something.

Listening to this piece again, it actually seems much simpler than I remember. Maybe it's my exposure to classical music, I don't know. I just always remember loving that desert theme. Something about the melody I guess? Or just the style? I don't know.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

As an aside, I love most Final Fantasy games, and most of Nobuo Uematsu's music for these games. I don't care whether it's classical or not, these distinctions never mattered that much to me, especially since the line between genres is something that is blurred and can never really be pinned down. I would probably say it's *not* classical, but that hardly matters. There's tons of music that he's made that I love and I can recall in my mind with pleasure, and that's what it's really about. Music is music!


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## Boldertism (May 21, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> I'm curious what people who think that video game music is shallow/cheap/whatever think about this:


Funny enough, the person from this board I was talking about expressed a particular dislike of the music from the Zelda games. I personally don't mind the music in Zelda, it's good in the games.

Here's a nice orchestrated collection of Zelda music:


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

boldertism said:


> funny enough, the person i was talking about from this board expressed a particular dislike of the music from the zelda games.


what!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!!?!?


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Boldertism said:


> Funny enough, the person I was talking about from this board expressed a particular dislike of the music from the Zelda games. I personally don't mind the music in Zelda, it good in the games.


I don't find music from the Zelda games very interesting in general. However I like the Hyrule Field theme from Ocarina of time even out of its context and I think I would like it even without the nostalgia aspect (which is why I posted it).


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Ok, totally not classical, but how about this? Come on, it's fun, admit it!





Had to edit.. The first video was not the one I should have posted. Heh, probably should have watched it first. Either way, yeah, fun song!


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Dedalus said:


> As an aside, I love most Final Fantasy games, and most of Nobuo Uematsu's music for these games. I don't care whether it's classical or not, these distinctions never mattered that much to me, especially since the line between genres is something that is blurred and can never really be pinned down. I would probably say it's *not* classical, but that hardly matters. There's tons of music that he's made that I love and I can recall in my mind with pleasure, and that's what it's really about. Music is music!


Classical music is pretty weird concept if you count both Xenakis and Salieri as classical. I agree that it doesn't really matter whether film/video game music is classical. Some video game and film music is quite obviously at least related to classical and there's nothing really concrete to absolutely disqualify it from being classical as classical is incredibly wide concept. However I wouldn't call it classical because that's what my common sense says.....

I have a strong nostalgic attachment to the music of Final Fantasy games. I think it is best appreciated in the context of the games, however as I said do think there is also something in the music itself because many games that I've liked have had completely forgettable soundtracks.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Dim7 said:


> Classical music is pretty weird concept if you count both Xenakis and Salieri as classical. I agree that it doesn't really matter whether film/video game music is classical. Some video game and film music is quite obviously at least related to classical and there's nothing really concrete to absolutely disqualify it from being classical as classical is incredibly wide concept. However I wouldn't call it classical because that's what my common sense says.....
> 
> I have a strong nostalgic attachment to the music of Final Fantasy games. However I think it is best appreciated in the context of the games....


I agree entirely. But I do have a favorite... The FF7 overworld theme. And just to please the primary audience here (at least as much as possible...) I have an orchestrated version! This music surely brings me nostalgia... Joy... And a childlike wonder that I hope will never dissipate!






Edit: Just to be clear. I don't think just because it was orchestrated that classifies it as classical music.

Edit 2: I almost think it sounded better on MIDI in the original game. That's weird.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Dim7 said:


> I'm curious what people who think that video game music is shallow/cheap/whatever think about this:





Dedalus said:


> As an aside, I love most Final Fantasy games, and most of Nobuo Uematsu's music for these games. I don't care whether it's classical or not, these distinctions never mattered that much to me, especially since the line between genres is something that is blurred and can never really be pinned down. I would probably say it's *not* classical, but that hardly matters. There's tons of music that he's made that I love and I can recall in my mind with pleasure, and that's what it's really about. Music is music!





Boldertism said:


> Funny enough, the person from this board I was talking about expressed a particular dislike of the music from the Zelda games. I personally don't mind the music in Zelda, it's good in the games.
> 
> Here's a nice orchestrated collection of Zelda music:


I may come across in most of my other posts on this topic that I don't like film/video game music at all. I actually really like the music in Ocarina of Time and the other Zelda games, BUT:

1. I don't necessarily consider it Classical Music 
2. I enjoy it for what it is (video game music meant to accompany my video games that can provide some catchy melody fun/nostalgia on occasion)
3. The thing I'm most baffled by is the people trying to prop up film/video game music as a sub-genre of classical that holds up just as well in terms of being well constructed abstract music. I just can't fathom that. I couldn't see any way in which I could view Skyrim or Zelda as an equal counterpart to Beethoven and Mozart.

Those are the things bothering me about these types of threads.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

violadude said:


> 3. The thing I'm most baffled by is the people trying to prop up film/video game music as a sub-genre of classical that holds up just as well in terms of being well constructed abstract music. I just can't fathom that. I couldn't see any way in which I could view Skyrim or Zelda as an equal counterpart to Beethoven and Mozart.


Generally speaking I agree - however I think something like Hyrule Field theme holds up well against the lighter compositions of Mozart and Beethoven. I don't think it is any less profound than say, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

One of my favorite games - EverQuest 2 - has terrific music which I enjoy so much - played by an actual symphony orchestra!

FILMharmonic Orchestra Prague/ Laura Karpman (composer, conductor)


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Dim7 said:


> Dim7 said:
> 
> 
> > Generally speaking I agree - however I think something like Hyrule Field theme holds up well against the lighter compositions of Mozart and Beethoven. I don't think it is any less profound than say, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.
> ...


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Lordblackudder, where ya been? I see you are still consistent as ever.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

I'm with Violadude, film music I'm a tad more lenient to.. but game music? To say that a theme in some game holds up to Mozart or Beethoven is frankly laughable. It suggests to me you just haven't explored enough _absolute_ music, of which there is plenty. I'm not saying game music isn't worthy of enjoying but I do say it doesn't hold water to music written to be its own thing, to be heard alone. One more piece of advice, you only get so much time in life so you probably shouldn't waste too much time playing video games, it's a colossal waste of time (I believe almost everything is a waste of time but that goes doubly so for video games, and I know of what I speak I've spent many a year playing {I even got a stupid xbox one to play fallout 4 full disclosure}).

Anyway if your still in your twenties it's not as big a deal but a suggestion, on most consoles these days you can burn CD's into the memory and play any music you want while you play the game, so at the very least you can explore new music while you play. So you may still be wasting time but at least you can hear some new and indubitably better music... sorry I know I'm a snob.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Calling a piece of music classical does not make it better or worse. It is just a genre label. Some film and video game music, though, does sound a lot like some parts of the classical music world like tone poems, especially when the themes are remixed, reorchestrated, and/or reconfigured into a suite.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Dim7 said:


> Generally speaking I agree - however I think something like Hyrule Field theme holds up well against the lighter compositions of Mozart and Beethoven. I don't think it is any less profound than say, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.


This is a bit of a tough comparison, because the level of chromaticism and dissonance in parts of the Hyrule Field theme is greater than in that of the classical era. If chromaticism/dissonance equaled profundity, then you could be right.

However, Eine Kleine has a much greater harmonic rhythm and therefore more satisfying tonal grammar. Whereas Hyrule Field is mostly G major with some chromatic diminished chords on top and some mixolydian modal neighboring motion, Eine Kleine has a much more dramatic harmonic structure, with its bassline motion, its elaborations of the tonic and dominant, its modulations to the the dominant or other keys, and its development of themes. The bassline motion and elaborations of the tonic/dominant/other keys are especially especially important in classical era works, even "light" classical era works. The harmonic/contrapuntal tonal grammar is so much more satisfying.

And finally, when we get to the romantic era where the level of chromaticism equalizes, compare, say, Liszt's symphonic poems to the Hyrule Field theme. All of them are far, far, more profound.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

nathanb said:


> Not classical, moving on lol.
> 
> Now if we could stop perpetuating this silly and unfounded inferiority complex by desperately claiming that something is what it is not...


:Greetings, Mahlerian. I see that you clicked that you liked this post or something about this post. I would like to know your opinion in your words about a discussion of whether soundtracks can be considered classical music (classical not being understood as a time period, but in part a collection of various forms including serenade, symphonic poem, overture, etc.) Thank you! Jo


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

JosefinaHW said:


> :Greetings, Mahlerian. I see that you clicked that you liked this post or something about this post. I would like to know your opinion in your words about a discussion of whether soundtracks can be considered classical music (classical not being understood as a time period, but in part a collection of various forms including serenade, symphonic poem, overture, etc.) Thank you! Jo


I consider classical music a tradition, not limited to a time period, but not necessarily extending to genres which grew up separately from it.

Whether or not soundtracks are considered classical music depends far more, for that reason, on whether or not the composer came from that tradition and is working within it than on any other quality. People may think an orchestral soundtrack is "classical music" because the orchestra is the instrumental ensemble of the classical tradition, but using an orchestra no more makes something classical than using an electric guitar makes something rock music.

What's frustrating is the idea that "classical" denotes a qualitative distinction, as if all music defined as classical is considered automatically superior by its nature. This is not true. There is horrible and trite classical music just as there is trite music in all other traditions and genres, and the attempt to get something considered "classical" because of some connoted superiority is misguided at best.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> What's frustrating is the idea that "classical" denotes a qualitative distinction, as if all music defined as classical is considered automatically superior by its nature. This is not true. There is horrible and trite classical music just as there is trite music in all other traditions and genres, and the attempt to get something considered "classical" because of some connoted superiority is misguided at best.


Of course there is horrible classical music as well and just because something is classical doesn't mean it's good. But I also believe that the defining traits of music in the classical tradition create some of the greatest potential for great music to be written.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Mahlerian said:


> I consider classical music a tradition, not limited to a time period, but not necessarily extending to genres which grew up separately from it.
> 
> Whether or not soundtracks are considered classical music depends far more, for that reason, on whether or not the composer came from that tradition and is working within it than on any other quality.


What might this tradition be? I've been listening to classical music all my life. If there was any 'tradition' I identified with, it included attractive, accessible and often beautiful themes and/or melodies sometimes with varying degrees of development. There is a lot of 20th/21st century music that is perpetrated as classical music, but is IMO just varying degrees of dissonance. I don't see the composers of the latter coming from anything I would call a classical music 'tradition'.

On the other hand, there is film soundtrack music that is, for me, a return to something closer to classical music as I know/knew it.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> Generally speaking I agree - however I think something like Hyrule Field theme holds up well against the lighter compositions of Mozart and Beethoven. I don't think it is any less profound than say, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.


I believe the formal title of _ EKN_ is _Serenade for Strings in G Major_. Some film soundtracks (sorry I know nothing about game soundtracks, but I would be interested in listening to some if you want to share a link) might fit into the serenade form. I thought the serenade form originated in the Classical Era.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Azol said:


> One of my favorite games - EverQuest 2 - has terrific music which I enjoy so much - played by an actual symphony orchestra!
> 
> FILMharmonic Orchestra Prague/ Laura Karpman (composer, conductor)
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2016)

Music written for different purposes needs to be evaluated within the relevant context.

'Great' film music is just that: film music. It _shouldn't_ (IMO) be taken out of context and evaluated in comparison to music written in 1824 (say Beethoven's 9th) within the 'classical tradition' of the time (though, of course, people can and will do so). And I fail to understand why some lovers of, for example, _Hyrule Field_ _Theme_ might feel compelled to campaign for its inclusion as 'classical' alongside music written for a completely different purpose.

Besides, I would argue that the Zelda music pales in comparison with that written for Ecco The Dolphin. :lol:


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Ever since DaveM started his thread on the topic of film soundtracks as classical I've let my mind consider it very casually; I've gained some insights since then:

People think that the reason that some of us argue for/or are open to considering film soundtracks to be classified as classical is because we think it's not given it's just do by calling it a soundtrack--the inferiority complex that Nathan mentions. Speaking only for myself, I am starting to see that there is a more fundamental interest behind my concern with the topic.

I am beginning to think that what I am asking for is that contemporary composers compose music in the baroque/classical/romantic? style or neo-classical style (I know you don't like that term Fugue Meister--let's just forget the damn name for now) using some of the many beautiful, lyrical melodies that have been composed for film. [again i know nothing about the game world). Take some of these lyrical melodies and "state them, relate them, vary them.... etc. as all the composers who wrote serenades, concerti, symphonic poems, even symphonies. 

I can take the soundtrack as a soundtrack on its own terms and I am not ashamed of liking several of them. But I sort of wonder if those of us who want a return to composing music with these forms and these types of lyrical melodies are the Rossinni's/Italians that Beethoven/the German (more emphasis on technical then melody) curses in those Rossini jokes.

Nothing is so simple as I am writing it, but I laughed when I was thinking even about your name, Fugue Meister (the abstract/strongly technically minded Germans are the masters of the fugue). Do you see what I mean? I am not saying that all composers should do this--certainly not. I'm not saying people should not continue to explore non-traditional methods of composition--go for it, but I am wondering that maybe an imbalance has been the norm for the past several!?!? We need some composers to focus on beautiful, lyrical, Italian-style--(whatever the correct term would be) music. I love the words "BOTH/AND' rather than 'EITHER/OR".


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Dear Mahlerian, thank you very much for taking the time to write back. Jo


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

MacLeod said:


> And I fail to understand why some lovers of, for example, _Hyrule Field_ _Theme_ might feel compelled to campaign for its inclusion as 'classical' alongside music written for a completely different purpose.
> 
> Besides, I would argue that the Zelda music pales in comparison with that written for Ecco The Dolphin. :lol:


To be clear I'm not exactly saying it should be classified as classical. I do not believe that is very important. I just raised it as an counter-example as a piece of video game music that I would consider more or less on par with many LIGHTER classical pieces in terms of quality and sophistication, against the argument that "video game music isn't classical because it's cheap, simplistic, not interesting at all out of context etc." But I would agree this kind of video game music is an exception.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2016)

Dim7 said:


> the argument that "video game music isn't classical because it's cheap, simplistic, not interesting at all"


Like you, I reject this argument.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

And if comparing the Hyrule Field theme to Eine Kleine Nachtmusik seems sacrilegious, let's compare it to this Stamitz minuet instead....


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

It is interesting that the classification of film/game music as "classical music" is generally rejected on this forum (not that I disagree), but when some guy posted some of his favorite (modern, avantgarde, noise, electronic) music, people never seemed to question whether that music belongs on this (sub)forum, while in many ways the music he posted is a lot further removed from "classical music" as film/game music is.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

DeepR said:


> It is interesting that the classification of film/game music as "classical music" is generally rejected on this forum (not that I disagree), but when some guy posted some of his favorite (modern, avantgarde, noise, electronic) music, people never seemed to question whether that music belongs on this (sub)forum, while in many ways the music he posted is a lot further removed from "classical music" as film/game music is.


Don´t you know that the more strange contemporary music sounds the more classical is it? 
Once some guy posted a link to a work that sounded like a recording of a tennis game and declared: This is 21:th century music.

I would prefer to not listen to either of it. Even if I think the performances of Gibello´s spinning top music look more bizarre than they sound like. Some music one just have to look away from and just listen or not just accept them as sound compilations.

Classical or not I think most film and game music just falls flat removed from their context. I can say that I never feel for listening to game music.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2016)

DeepR said:


> people never seemed to question whether that music belongs on this (sub)forum, while in many ways the music he posted is a lot further removed from "classical music" as film/game music is.


I think 'people' (more specifically, 'some' people) _did _and _do _question - frequently - but in more ways than simply saying, "I don't think that this music belongs here." Others fret less about classifying, demarcating, ruling this 'in' and that 'out' and just get on and listen to whatever music they will.

If this Forum was really only about a category of 'classical' music narrowly defined, and we set parameters on what we are and aren't able to discuss, then we wouldn't bother with threads like 'the non classical we're listening to' or any of the non-musical community stuff that runs alongside the trad threads about LvB, WAM etc.

The fact is, whilst it may occasionally be interesting to muse on what does and doesn't 'belong' (to any genre, not just 'classical') such musings shouldn't detract from the listening experience. I've thoroughly enjoyed video game music as I've played the games, and even, briefly, when not. I've also thoroughly enjoyed film music when watching the film - usually paying more attention to it on second and subsequent viewings - and occasionally when not, most notably the _LOTR _and _Gladiator _soundtracks.

I don't see I need to classify or reclassify, to insist to others on what should be classified, or, more important, justify.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I enjoy film and game music as well. I'm also not a fan of strict classification of music, but there are limits, otherwise genres have no meaning anymore. 
I'm just a little suprised that there are strong reactions when film/game music is being classified as or associated with classical music, while in my perception the "new music" that some guy posted didn't cause similar reactions. Obviously there was strong discussion, but more in terms of "like or dislike", not so much about "is it classical music or not?".
I raised this question myself a few times and never got a good answer to why that music was posted in the classical forums instead of the non-classical forums (other than vague ties through the composer's background and musical preferences). Or perhaps it's simply the audience that determines something is (related to) classical music. Or can it be heard in the music itself? What makes "new music" have more in common with classical music than film or game music? If you ask me, nothing.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Let me be as bold as to say that I won't bother playing a game or watching a movie if I do not like the musical setting. If it hurts my ears there is no way, even with the volume turned all the way down.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2016)

some guy has never, to my knowledge, made a blanket claim that all electroacoustic music is classical music. I reckon he would get more push-back than he already does if he did. Some of it certainly is, of course, because what defines classical music has everything to do with a compositional tradition and nothing to do with how your ears feel about it, so some guy deserves no push back for such a claim. What you're seeing here has nothing to do with tastes and bias. What you're seeing here is a good ole case of "X Is Y" and "No, X Is X", nothing more, nothing less.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Classical music is a misnomer. I believe it should be called Art Music. I believe that music composed as Art is a blend of intellect and emotion. Many other styles of music are either primitive art or merely sounds for the senses only. So with the exception of some film music written by artists I don't consider film or game music Classical. And I wish the "Today's Composers" section of TC was not so filled with game music...ugh!!


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

nathanb said:


> some guy has never, to my knowledge, made a blanket claim that all electroacoustic music is classical music. I reckon he would get more push-back than he already does if he did. Some of it certainly is, of course, because what defines classical music has everything to do with a compositional tradition and nothing to do with how your ears feel about it, so some guy deserves no push back for such a claim. What you're seeing here has nothing to do with tastes and bias. What you're seeing here is a good ole case of "X Is Y" and "No, X Is X", nothing more, nothing less.


I didn't say he made such a claim. But when such music is repeatedly posted in this section of the forums, as opposed to the non-classical music section (where he never posted), it shouldn't be surprising that I think a connection to classical music was implied.

I wonder what parts of this "compositional tradition" that were present in, say, the baroque, classical and romantic eras (that almost everyone agrees upon is "classical music") are still present among composers of new music/electroaccoustic music and at the same time absent among composers of film and game music?


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Is this thread really going to devolve into whether "classical music" is the correct term?
I don't see any reason why we can't consider film or game music classical. Sure, if the soundtrack is heavy metal or something then of course it's not classical, but I will never for the life of me understand the reluctance to accept orchestral film scores as part of the classical tradition. I'm not talking about cheesy action themes with violins used as a dramatic backdrop, but rather the themes of Jerry Goldsmith, Max Steiner, and yes, some of John Williams's work (I personally think Williams is overrated but dang if he didn't write some really great music). 
Film music is perceived as too "simple" or "mainstream" or "hipster" for the classical concert hall. Is this because the medium of film is relatively new? In the grand days of opera, you basically HAD to have an experienced classical composer to write the music. Does the absence of this requirement account for the lack of respect given to film score composers by the classical world? If so, then I conclude that film composers are at a distinct disadvantage here. I don't think it's fair that we should expect composers to write predominantly concert works in order for their work to be respected. Will people 150 years down the road look at Goldsmith's Star Trek scores the same way we today look at Verdi's operas? 
Here's food for thought- Aaron Copland wrote film music. "Of Mice and Men" and "The North Star" are two of his popular ones. Would you ever program them in a concert hall? It's Copland. COPLAND, people, not James Horner! It's film, but it's COPLAND!


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Or Prokofiev with Alexander Nevsky. It's unreasonable to dismiss film and game music as perforce not being art music.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2016)

DeepR said:


> I wonder what parts of this "compositional tradition" that were present in, say, the baroque, classical and romantic eras (that almost everyone agrees upon is "classical music") are still present among composers of new music/electroaccoustic music and at the same time absent among composers of film and game music?


I'm more inclined to wonder what you think is missing at all in the music of Stockhausen, Dumitrescu, Ferrari, Lucier, etc?


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Yes, Prokofiev's "Alexander Nevsky" is Art Music. It is evident by the way it's written. I've followed my copy of the score many times to see that.

John Williams has written works of art for the concert hall too, but don't even try to convince me that his film scores like "Star Wars" (even though it's played on Pops Concerts by orchestras) is "Art Music". Do I like hearing it? Yeah, but it's film music, not Classical music.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2016)

Gordontrek said:


> Is this thread really going to devolve into whether "classical music" is the correct term?


Well if it is, you've just made your own contribution to that exact question. The quality of the music is not the issue, nor is the calibre of the composer - if there is an issue at all, of course.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Well if it is, you've just made your own contribution to that exact question. The quality of the music is not the issue, nor is the calibre of the composer - if there is an issue at all, of course.


To clarify, I said I was surprised to see debate over whether "classical" is the right term for classical music ITSELF. The rest of my post supported my position that yes, film music and classical music are NOT mutually exclusive and can fall under the same umbrella.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Vasks said:


> John Williams has written works of art for the concert hall too, but don't even try to convince me that his film scores like "Star Wars" (even though it's played on Pops Concerts by orchestras) is "Art Music". Do I like hearing it? Yeah, but it's film music, not Classical music.


Then I won't waste your time by explaining why I think it IS "art music." But would you mind wasting MY time by explaining your convictions?


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2016)

Gordontrek said:


> To clarify, I said I was surprised to see debate over whether "classical" is the right term for classical music ITSELF.


Sorry Gordon, but that doesn't clarify at all, unless you mean you can see the absurdity of trying to decide whether 'classical' is the right word to label something that has already been defined as 'classical'?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

JosefinaHW said:


> Ever since DaveM started his thread on the topic of film soundtracks as classical I've let my mind consider it very casually; I've gained some insights since then:
> 
> People think that the reason that some of us argue for/or are open to considering film soundtracks to be classified as classical is because we think it's not given it's just do by calling it a soundtrack--the inferiority complex that Nathan mentions. Speaking only for myself, I am starting to see that there is a more fundamental interest behind my concern with the topic.
> 
> ...


Much of what you are saying is why I started the thread:
http://www.talkclassical.com/42112-movie-themes-soundtracks-category.html

Generally speaking, I don't understand why 'traditional melody' and its development is relatively rarely present in 'modern' classical music. Why is there nothing comparable to the Rachmaninoff 2nd (1901) and 3rd (1909) piano concertos in 20th/21st century music. I'm not saying that classical music should have stayed the way it was in the 19th century, but why has it, in many cases, changed into something that is, for want of a better word, 'a-melodic'.

Anyway, in some soundtrack music there is accessible melody and for those who have stated (or inferrred) that, unequivocally, film/soundtrack music is not classical music, you apparently aren't familiar with much of it. And I'm not saying that all of it falls in the classical realm, but some of it IMO certainly does.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2016)

I haven't seen anyone in this thread - nor in others on a similar topic - objecting to the claim that some film scores are lovely, with great melodies, or that they bear some similarities to what we probably all know what we mean when we loosely use the term 'classical'. That is, when we're not engaged in the business of trying to define the exact boundaries of the term, something which, I think, has never been successfully concluded in this Forum.

What some object to is the claim that 'film music' can be generally classified as 'classical', though as the OP suggests, there are various arguments advanced to support their objection.

What I object to is the _need _to include film scores in the classification.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

It comes down to semantics. Film scores are composed art music recognizing the dramatic and emotional impact of the scenes of the movie. That requires a strong sense of musical characterization and music training. The rest is semantics and the composer of film scores would be far less concerned, as the great John William is enjoying so much success being a contemporary composer today.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2016)

ArtMusic said:


> It comes down to semantics.


If it does, so what? If we choose not to worry about semantics (or constantly disparage them, as if they were unimportant) we could allow anyone and everyone to use words to mean anything they want. That might be fun...for a while, but a language without a shared understanding of what its vocabulary means is not a language worth learning.

We might find it exasperating when others challenge our use of words, retorting, "Well, come on, you surely know what I mean?" but that's an inadequate response when what we are engaged in is the act of definition. The OP _wants _us to consider what the term 'classical' means and how it might be correctly applied to this or that type of music.

You did read the OP, right?



LordBlackudder said:


> Use of the word Classical meaning the era of music and Classical the blanket term for all era's. Most people seem to use the latter, a blanket term meaning all eras. Unless they need to define it further. So we could end it there, classical and contemporary classical. But here's some fun arguments. [etc]


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

nathanb said:


> I'm more inclined to wonder what you think is missing at all in the music of Stockhausen, Dumitrescu, Ferrari, Lucier, etc?


I was referring to music posted by some guy in the classical music section, such as the piece below from the "Music today" topic.

If something like this:





.. has more to do with classical music than this piece of film music:





Well, then I guess I'm lost. And yet, film/game music seems to stir things up more when it's associated with classical music.
But whatever, I'll just leave it to the elitist few to decide.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2016)

DeepR said:


> I was referring to music posted by some guy in the classical music section, such as the piece below from the "Music today" topic.
> 
> If something like this:
> 
> ...


But why? Is it because of how Parmegiani sounds to you? If so, you've already gone one step too far in the wrong direction. Think about how it was written, why it was written, for whom it was written, etc, and think a little less about "he used electronics and he didn't" and these things become more clear, imo.

<3 Parmegiani


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

nathanb said:


> But why? Is it because of how Parmegiani sounds to you? If so, you've already gone one step too far in the wrong direction. Think about how it was written, why it was written, for whom it was written, etc, and think a little less about "he used electronics and he didn't" and these things become more clear, imo.
> <3 Parmegiani


I've thought about all of that. To me, how it was written only matters if what I hear indicates some sort of unique skill and creativity which, for me, it doesn't. As for whom it is written, I have no idea except to say that if there was a concert consisting only of 'works' like that, it would have to occur in a very small salon setting because 95% or more of the seats in a concert hall would be empty. On the other hand, Enio Morricone concerts sell out.

What I would like to know is what classification of music is that 'piece' in? It can't possibly be classical music. What it sounded like to me was the sound effects of aliens trashing a room in War of the Worlds.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2016)

DaveM said:


> I've thought about all of that. To me, how it was written only matters if what I hear indicates some sort of unique skill and creativity which, for me, it doesn't. As for whom it is written, I have no idea except to say that if there was a concert consisting only of 'works' like that, it would have to occur in a very small salon setting because 95% or more of the seats in a concert hall would be empty. On the other hand, Enio Morricone concerts sell out.
> 
> What I would like to know is what classification of music is that 'piece' in? It can't possibly be classical music. What it sounded like to me was the sound effects of aliens trashing a room in War of the Worlds.


Parmegiani is classical music, in the subcategory of contemporary electroacoustic classical music. How you feel about it has no bearing on its objective classification. If Parmegiani is not classical music and John Williams is, then words have no meaning and language is worthless. Stop trying to impose your subjective tastes on us, thanks.

If there is a grey area, I'd say it's more in the realm of Otomo Yoshihide or Erik Malton.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Sorry Gordon, but that doesn't clarify at all, unless you mean you can see the absurdity of trying to decide whether 'classical' is the right word to label something that has already been defined as 'classical'?


I don't think we're understanding each other. I was under the impression that the debate had shifted towards whether or not classical music SHOULD BE CALLED "classical music." Hence people are now calling it "art music." The first sentence of my post didn't have anything to do with whether film music should be called classical. The rest of my post did.

Is the "something that has already been defined as classical" in your reply supposed to be film music, or does it mean classical music itself?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

nathanb said:


> Parmegiani is classical music, in the subcategory of contemporary electroacoustic classical music. How you feel about it has no bearing on its objective classification. If Parmegiani is not classical music and John Williams is, then words have no meaning and language is worthless. Stop trying to impose your subjective tastes on us, thanks.


Speaking of imposing subjective tastes:_ 'If Parmegiani is not classical music and John Williams is, then words have no meaning and language is worthless.'_ So my taste is subjective and yours is objective? Who proclaimed Parmegiani's electroacoustic 'works' as a subcategory of classical music? When did that occur? What objective group of experts wrote that in stone? How come I wasn't notified? 

I don't have to impose my taste on anyone. In the thread I referred to I put up many examples of some of the IMO best of movie/film themes/melodies that I think fit into a category of classical music. Others can decided whether I have a point or not. One thing I'm pretty sure of: If you were to stick a hundred people (from off the street) in a room for a period of 24 hours and you gave them a choice of listening to a CD of Morricone vs. Parmegiani, I can pretty much guarantee which they would choose and, for that matter, which one they would think fit closer into a definition of classical music.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> I'm curious what people who think that video game music is shallow/cheap/whatever think about this:





Dedalus said:


> Just to add to this... (And I love your selection!) One of my favorite games, but I always loved this piece the best! Maybe I'm just a sucker for guitar, but in any case... That dungeon to get the ice arrows though... Ugh, screw that. Worse than the water temple, and that's really saying something.
> 
> Listening to this piece again, it actually seems much simpler than I remember. Maybe it's my exposure to classical music, I don't know. I just always remember loving that desert theme. Something about the melody I guess? Or just the style? I don't know.


Hi, Dim7 and Dedelus, Thank you both for taking the time to share some of your music with us. I know from my life that I have had to have certain life experiences and expand my knowledge to be ready to enjoy certain types of music, painting, literature, food , etc.. I'm guessing that is the case with most of the game music that has been uploaded in this thread. I did like some of the music that was posted in a different thread, e.g., "Dragon Age". I would be curious to know if you both liked some of the music from _The Mask of Zorro_, music was composed and conducted by James Horner. I own the disc but I haven't listened to it for years--I'm glad your posts reminded me of it; anyway, I just loaded the music into iTunes. If you could walk me through the steps of how to upload it to this thread, I would like to hear your opinions. Thanks! Jo


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2016)

Gordontrek said:


> I don't think we're understanding each other. I was under the impression that the debate had shifted towards whether or not classical music SHOULD BE CALLED "classical music." Hence people are now calling it "art music." The first sentence of my post didn't have anything to do with whether film music should be called classical. The rest of my post did.
> 
> Is the "something that has already been defined as classical" in your reply supposed to be film music, or does it mean classical music itself?


Yes, I'm sure we've just been talking at cross-purposes, but as there is no already-agreed definition of 'classical' or agreement about what belongs to it, it's not surprising that's what's happening.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2016)

DaveM said:


> I don't have to impose my taste on anyone. In the thread I referred to I put up many examples of some of the IMO best of movie/film themes/melodies that I think fit into a category of classical music. Others can decided whether I have a point or not. One thing I'm pretty sure of: If you were to stick a hundred people (from off the street) in a room for a period of 24 hours and you gave them a choice of listening to a CD of Morricone vs. Parmegiani, I can pretty much guarantee which they would choose and, for that matter, which one they would think fit closer into a definition of classical music.


If you take 100 people off the street and ask them about anything outside of the mainstream, whether it be contemporary classical music, quantum physics, or just about anything under the sun, the vast majority will be wrong, yes. Thank you for proving my point


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

nathanb said:


> If you take 100 people off the street and ask them about anything outside of the mainstream, whether it be contemporary classical music, quantum physics, or just about anything under the sun, the vast majority will be wrong, yes. Thank you for proving my point


Putting contemporary classical music and quantum physics in the same sentence when it comes to the understanding of 100 people off the street, pretty much proves my point.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

DaveM said:


> Your putting contemporary classical music and quantum physics in the same sentence, pretty much proves my point.


Because they're both things opposed by hardcore Randians using the same lame rationales as their beloved Ayn?


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Greetings, Dim7 and Dedelus. The following is a link to the piece of music I thought you might like to hear in comparison to "Hyrule Field". I'd like to know what you think; please listen to the entire thing. (Sorry there is an ad at the beginning.)


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