# Top Ten Second Tier Composers?



## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Because who doesn't love more lists.

1. Vivaldi
2. CPE Bach
3. Telemann
4. Saint-Saëns
5. Carl Nielsen
6. Anton Bruckner
7. Michael Haydn
8. Max Bruch
9. Hummel
10. Aaron Copland

Or top five for any given era: Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modern if you're more familiar with individual eras.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Buxtehude
Telemann
Schumann
Brahms
Saint-Saens
Mahler
R. Strauss
Nielsen
Korngold
Goldsmith


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Schumann, Mahler and Buxtehude. Yes. I might be a little reluctant to cocede Buxtehude to the second tier, but when I compare him to Purcell, an almost contemporary, then probably. But Brahms?


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Pierre Boulez

Philip Glass

Telemann

Elliott Carter

Brian Ferneyhough

John Williams

Carl Nielsen

Karol Szymanowski

Witold Lutoslawski

Alfred Schnittke

Leonard Bernstein


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

vtpoet said:


> Schumann, Mahler and Buxtehude. Yes. I might be a little reluctant to cocede Buxtehude to the second tier, but when I compare him to Purcell, an almost contemporary, then probably. But Brahms?


Indeed, if Brahms is not top tier then I'm struggling with the underlying definition.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Deleted because I deleted it.


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

vtpoet said:


> 7. Michael Haydn


Do any of his other works reach the glory of the Cm requiem? That thing is a miracle


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

1. Mozart 
2. Beethoven 
3. Jim Morrison
4. C.P.E. Bach 
5. Ludovico Einaudi 
6. W.F. Bach 
7. Engelbert Humperdinck 
8. R.E.M. Bach 
9. Simon Le Bon 
10. Lil’ Weltschmerz


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

level82rat said:


> Do any of his other works reach the glory of the Cm requiem? That thing is a miracle


I appreciate his Missa sancti nicolai Tolentini, Missa tempore quadrigesimae, Missa in honorem sanctae Ursulae, Missa subtitulo sancti Francisci, (and to a lesser extent, Rupertimesse and Missa sancti Aloysii)

I think Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert were all inspired by his work.


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


>


Thanks, I think these have something to them. I'll listen to the whole things later


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Beethoven
Liszt
R.Strauss
Wagner
Bach
Chopin
Tschaikowsky
Bruckner
Mahler
Wallace


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

Dimace said:


> Beethoven
> Liszt
> R.Strauss
> Wagner
> ...


That's not fair, I wouldn't really call Wallace second-rate.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


>


And I think that Hasse was one of the composers mentioned by CPE as among those his father spoke of/admired(?). Also JF Fasch.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

level82rat said:


> That's not fair, I wouldn't really call Wallace second-rate.


Yeah, I'm a bit offended that he grouped Wallace with the second tier.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

2nd tier composers whose music I love:

Myaskovsky
Weinberg
Taneyev
Froberger
Berwald
Zemlinsky
Pettersson
Poulenc
Gade
Bax


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

level82rat said:


> That's not fair, I wouldn't really call Wallace second-rate.





vtpoet said:


> Yeah, I'm a bit offended that he grouped Wallace with the second tier.


Hi, Hi! You caught me! :lol:


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

there are no tier 2 composers. Tier1 is occupied by Bach, tier2 is empty, tier3 is occupied by Beethoven and Mozart, and the rest are at tier 4,5,6...


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Dimace said:


> Beethoven
> Liszt
> R.Strauss
> Wagner
> ...


See what happens when you start a thread like this? It's an invitation to trolls and Witzbolde.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

In no particular order:
1. Felix Mendelssohn
2. Mahler
3. Bartok
4. Schoenberg
5. Monteverdi
6. Bruckner
7. Sibelius
8. Dvorak
9. Stravinsky
10. CPE Bach

I define the First Tier as Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Wagner, and Brahms.

Edit: Looking at the other lists, I should produce a thoroughly "good, not great" list

1. CPE Bach
2. Gluck
3. Corelli
4. Xenakis
5. Part
6. Cherubini
7. Schnittke
8. Byrd
9. Lully
10. Telemann


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

ORigel said:


> In no particular order:
> 1. Felix Mendelssohn
> 2. Mahler
> 3. Bartok
> ...


Hum. I would have called Monteverdi a first tier composer.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Jacck said:


> there are no tier 2 composers. Tier1 is occupied by Bach, tier2 is empty, tier3 is occupied by Beethoven and Mozart, and the rest are at tier 4,5,6...


I agree. That's why I called Tier 3, Tier 2. Sorry I didn't clarify that.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Make dopey thread, get dopey responses.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Simplicissimus said:


> See what happens when you start a thread like this? It's an invitation to trolls and Witzbolde.


Nah! No opportunities here to insult or irritate........:angel:


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Make dopey thread, get dopey responses.


Where's the problem?


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Richard Strauss called himself a second tier composer, so he's on my list.

Bacewicz
Corelli
Glazunov
Ives
Martinu
Poulenc
Roussel
Strauss
Taneyev
Tippett

Of course, it's hard to define second tier. And that's what you're making fun of above me. For me, I don't listen to Mozart much, but his music is okay, I just don't find it very interesting. If I were to place Mozart in my second tier, there'd be some outrage here for sure.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Make dopey thread, get dopey responses.


Exactly on target. Some of the lists have top-of-the-mountain 1st tier composers. This thread was doomed from the start.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Bulldog said:


> Exactly on target. Some of the lists have top-of-the-mountain 1st tier composers. This thread was doomed from the start.


The first tier composer game is played all the time. The composers that listeners consider second tierish is genuinely interesting to me, and I actually find that I agree with them. I considered the same composers they listed.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

vtpoet said:


> The first tier composer game is played all the time.


I never heard of it. Maybe I'll start one.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

vtpoet said:


> Where's the problem?


No problem if you want dopey answers.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Tier 1 could maybe have 1 composer, Tier 2 could have 2 composers, Tier 3 with 3, etc.

If you build a pyramid, there's a point on top.










Here's an example tiering from a 56 member survey we did last year:

1. Beethoven 1600 pts
2. JS Bach, Mozart, ~1400 pts
3. Mahler, Brahms, Schubert, ~1200 pts
4. Shostakovich, Sibelius, Schumann, Debussy
5. Wagner, Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Haydn, Ravel, ~800
6. Dvořák, Stravinsky, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Bartók, Handel
7. Bruckner, Strauss, Liszt, Vaughan Williams, Rachmaninoff, Berlioz, Fauré
8. Schoenberg, Scriabin, Vivaldi, Verdi, Puccini, Monteverdi, Janáček, Elgar, ~300​


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

ORigel said:


> I define the First Tier as Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Wagner, and Brahms.


This seems reasonable to me. Perhaps the OP should have been at least a little clearer on what is meant by "Second Tier".


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Bulldog said:


> This thread was doomed from the start.


This is one of the reasons why I usually refrain from fully stating my preferences or actually bother to care about others'. I sometimes do on certain subjects if I really have to, but I spend more time talking about the reasons for my preferences. But I never plainly list my "10 favorites", "20 favorites". Because, to me, it's like telling other people my favorite foods are:

1. banana / 2. coffee / 3. carrot / 4. potato / 5. cheese / 6. milk / 7. bread / 8. chocolate / 9. chicken / 10. apple

Would you care about lists like this? You wouldn't, right? Likewise, I don't care about other people's lists of "10 favorites". Threads mostly consisting of responses like the above list are the most boring threads on TC. I also think people tend to care too much about others' preferences. So what if I knew vtpoet likes strawberries, how would that affect my own decisions?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> 1. banana / 2. coffee / 3. carrot / 4. potato / 5. cheese / 6. milk / 7. bread / 8. chocolate / 9. chicken / 10. apple


This list seems reasonable to me Hammeredklavier. Do I have permission to print it out and post it to my refrigerator, it reminds me of a meme:


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

My list:

Fortzen
Scrimer
Velis
Bachtorini
Asenvic
lasakimoro
Tobo
Khaistu
Hoernevt
Roswult


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> No problem if you want dopey answers.


I don't care. I just visit this forum to enjoy myself.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> This seems reasonable to me. Perhaps the OP should have been at least a little clearer on what is meant by "Second Tier".


If you want to re-define it or challenge the whole notion, I'm fine with that. It's just interesting to me how different listeners think about these things.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Here's my personal list of top 20 composers, 1-10 are top tier, 11-20 second tier. I guess.

1	Bach
2	Brahms
3	Stravinsky
4	Debussy
5	Liszt	
6	Durufle
7	Schumann	
8	Machaut
9	Beethoven
10	Palestrina

11	Poulenc
12	Satie
13	Schoeck
14	Weinberg
15	Feldman
16	Carter
17	Bernstein
18	Webern
19	Fauré 
20	Ravel	

But it'd always changing, and in fact, I edited this list before posting it as it was from the last time I looked at it.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> Would you care about lists like this? You wouldn't, right? Likewise, I don't care about other people's lists of "10 favorites". Threads mostly consisting of responses like the above list are the most boring threads on TC. I also think people tend to care too much about others' preferences. So what if I knew vtpoet likes strawberries, how would that affect my own decisions?


About food stuffs? Probably not. About recipes? Sure.

I enjoy knowing how people think about music. I'm curious about people and their tastes. I enjoy the discussions such lists promote.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

SanAntone said:


> Here's my personal list of top 20 composers, 1-10 are top tier, 11-20 second tier. I guess.
> 
> 1	Bach
> 2	Brahms
> ...


Given that you rate Liszt so highly, did you listen to his recently discovered/reconstructed opera?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

vtpoet said:


> Given that you rate Liszt so highly, did you listen to his recently discovered/reconstructed opera?


I didn't know about it. Link?


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

SanAntone said:


> I didn't know about it. Link?


Here's an article about it:

https://www.classicfm.com/composers/liszt/liszt-lost-opera-sardanapalo-revived/

In the meantime, I'm pretty sure I saw a new recording available on Prestomusic.com. (Though you could probably find it on Amazon as well.)


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## Andante Largo (Apr 23, 2020)

1. Sibelius, Jean (1865 - 1957) [Finland]
2. Respighi, Ottorino (1879 - 1936) [Italy]
3. Brahms, Johannes (1833 - 1897) [Germany]
4. Castelnuovo-Tedesco, Mario (1895 - 1968) [Italy]
5. Rheinberger, Josef (1839 - 1901) [Liechtenstein]
6. Perosi, Lorenzo (1872 - 1956) [Italy]
7. Karłowicz, Mieczysław (1876 - 1909) [Poland]
8. Delius, Frederick (1862 - 1934) [England]
9. Melartin, Erkki (1875 - 1937) [Finland]
10. Wieniawski, Henryk (1835 - 1880) [Poland]

*11. Saint-Saëns, Camille (1835 - 1921) [France]
12. Graener, Paul (1872 - 1944) [Germany]
13. Stenhammar, Wilhelm (1871 - 1927) [Sweden]
14. Berg, Natanael (1879 - 1957) [Sweden]
15. Chopin, Fryderyk (1810 - 1849) [Poland]
16. Howells, Herbert (1892 - 1983) [England]
17. Dobrzyński, Ignacy Feliks (1807 - 1867) [Poland]
18. Gernsheim, Friedrich (1839 - 1916) [Germany]
19. Żeleński, Władysław (1837 - 1921) [Poland]
20. Hummel, Johann Nepomuk (1778 - 1837) [Austria]*

(concerns only instrumental works)


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Andante Largo said:


> 1. Sibelius, Jean (1865 - 1957) [Finland]
> 2. Respighi, Ottorino (1879 - 1936) [Italy]
> 3. Brahms, Johannes (1833 - 1897) [Germany]
> 4. Castelnuovo-Tedesco, Mario (1895 - 1968) [Italy]
> ...


All the 20 are second-tier (or third-tier) composers, except Sibelius and Brahms.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

I find this thread amusing, light-hearted ... leading me to think of TwoSet Violin humour.

"Teacher, do I have the talent to be a second-tier composer? Third?"

"Class, our next lesson is on how to make a substantive judgment: Who is better - Corelli or Xenakis?"


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Bach, Beethoven and Brahms are the top B-list composers.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

According to these lists I spend most of my time listening to "second tier" composers.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

starthrower said:


> According to these lists I spend most of my time listening to "second tier" composers.


I do too. But it's mainly because I've listened to the first tier until I know all their music backwards and forwards. CPE Bach was a revelation simply because I find him to be as enjoyable as Haydn (if not just as great) and am still discovering his music. I'm down to CPE Bach's songs and chorale works, but I'll take that. Also Buxtehude and Telemann continues to surprise me.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

It's funny how some of us think of tiers in terms of general consensus while some of us think of personal preference.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> It's funny how some of us think of tiers in terms of general consensus while some of us think of personal preference.


The term 'tier' in the context that it is used has no real objective meaning - other than degree of popularity. It's not possible to determine whether any particular compostion is 'above' or 'below' any other work. That's how I see things anyway.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Favorite second tier in no particular order:

Schubert
Tchaikovsky
Prokofiev
Mahler
Bruckner
Vivaldi
Moeran
Respighi
Borodin
Bizet


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## Geoff48 (Aug 15, 2020)

I think the difficulty with this question is not so much who are the second tier but who is in the first tier. Okay Bach, Handel.Haydn Mozart and Beethoven are probably obvious choices but what about Schubert, the greatest composer of lieder as well as a major composer of piano and chamber music. Then why select Wagner over Verdi, intellectual over emotional, when Verdi has probably given far more pleasure to far more people. Or Brahms over Tchaikovsky because one is better at coping with the rules of form. And can there be any justification for counting Bruckner amongst the top tier other than his inability to follow any thought through to a conclusion.I admit he is a blind spot for me. then what do you do about Chopin, brilliant piano composer but little else, or Mendelssohn or Schumann. And Schoenberg whose twelve tone technique is the bedrock of much modern music, should he not be included even though his latermusic appeals to the Intellect rather than the heart.
The point I’m trying to make is that there is a very amorphous line between first and second tier and much depends on the criteria you choose. And second tier cannot mean second class. Johann Strauss will not be seen as first tier although there is no one greater in the field of light music.
Now I accept I have chickened out of the question initially posed. There are lots of composers who wrote wonderful music but only one or two works are played regularly, Bruch with his violin concerto and Kol Nidrei a prime example. There are composers respected but whose music is not really loved such as Boulez. There are composers of great historical importance such as Monteverdi in opera.
I appreciate this has been a rambling note with no real conclusion, the Bruckner of my posts. Sorry.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Geoff48 said:


> I think the difficulty with this question is not so much who are the second tier but who is in the first tier. Okay Bach, Handel.Haydn Mozart and Beethoven are probably obvious choices but what about Schubert, the greatest composer of lieder as well as a major composer of piano and chamber music. Then why select Wagner over Verdi, intellectual over emotional, when Verdi has probably given far more pleasure to far more people. Or Brahms over Tchaikovsky because one is better at coping with the rules of form. And can there be any justification for counting Bruckner amongst the top tier other than his inability to follow any thought through to a conclusion.I admit he is a blind spot for me. then what do you do about Chopin, brilliant piano composer but little else, or Mendelssohn or Schumann. And Schoenberg whose twelve tone technique is the bedrock of much modern music, should he not be included even though his latermusic appeals to the Intellect rather than the heart.
> The point I'm trying to make is that there is a very amorphous line between first and second tier and much depends on the criteria you choose. And second tier cannot mean second class. Johann Strauss will not be seen as first tier although there is no one greater in the field of light music.
> Now I accept I have chickened out of the question initially posed. There are lots of composers who wrote wonderful music but only one or two works are played regularly, Bruch with his violin concerto and Kol Nidrei a prime example. There are composers respected but whose music is not really loved such as Boulez. There are composers of great historical importance such as Monteverdi in opera.
> I appreciate this has been a rambling note with no real conclusion, the Bruckner of my posts. Sorry.


It's the dopey questions that will sneak up on you and steal your apples.

But anyway, all good questions, though I think you do a good job demolishing all the composers other than Bach, Handel, Mozart and Beethoven.

And JC Bach might be better at light music, in my second tierish opinion of course.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Geoff48 said:


> I think the difficulty with this question is not so much who are the second tier but who is in the first tier. Okay Bach, Handel.Haydn Mozart and Beethoven are probably obvious choices but what about Schubert, the greatest composer of lieder as well as a major composer of piano and chamber music. Then why select Wagner over Verdi, intellectual over emotional, when Verdi has probably given far more pleasure to far more people. Or Brahms over Tchaikovsky because one is better at coping with the rules of form. And can there be any justification for counting Bruckner amongst the top tier other than his inability to follow any thought through to a conclusion.I admit he is a blind spot for me. then what do you do about Chopin, brilliant piano composer but little else, or Mendelssohn or Schumann. And Schoenberg whose twelve tone technique is the bedrock of much modern music, should he not be included even though his latermusic appeals to the Intellect rather than the heart.
> The point I'm trying to make is that there is a very amorphous line between first and second tier and much depends on the criteria you choose. And second tier cannot mean second class. Johann Strauss will not be seen as first tier although there is no one greater in the field of light music.
> Now I accept I have chickened out of the question initially posed. There are lots of composers who wrote wonderful music but only one or two works are played regularly, Bruch with his violin concerto and Kol Nidrei a prime example. There are composers respected but whose music is not really loved such as Boulez. There are composers of great historical importance such as Monteverdi in opera.
> I appreciate this has been a rambling note with no real conclusion, the Bruckner of my posts. Sorry.


There is no such thing as an objective ranking of composers, first tier, second tier, etc. There can never be any consensus about this kind of subjective assessment. We might agree on some of the names, but will never agree on how they should be ranked.

The only rational way to interpret the question posed by this thread is as a list of our personal definition of "2nd tier composers" ranked according to our preference.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

SanAntone said:


> There is no such thing as an objective ranking of composers, first tier, second tier, etc.


Yes there _is_ such a thing as an objective ranking, but I have filed this opinion under the "My Unpopular Opinion Thread".


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

By definition, I listen exclusively to first-tier composers.....


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

vtpoet said:


> Yes there _is_ such a thing as an objective ranking, but I have filed this opinion under the "My Unpopular Opinion Thread".


Where is it found?


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

starthrower said:


> According to these lists I spend most of my time listening to "second tier" composers.


It might be argued that there are lot more of them, and more music of that level (especially if we just set two tiers). Consequently, most of us probably do.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> There can never be any consensus about this kind of subjective assessment.


But yet there's a consensus that, say, Brahms is higher quality than Joachim Raff. Just because you don't agree with the consensus doesn't mean it's impossible or non-existent.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

consuono said:


> But yet there's a consensus that, say, Brahms is higher quality than Joachim Raff. Just because you don't agree with the consensus doesn't mean it's impossible or non-existent.


No I agree Brahms is higher than Raff. But as to an absolute ranking 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 .... is subjective even if we might agree on the basic group of composers. Who's first?


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

A consensus is merely a general agreement; it need not be universal. It is also not necessarily immutable over time. Some broad statements may be made with some assurance. (Beethoven, for example, will certainly rank very high, without actually needing a poll or scientific survey.) 

I wonder if we can call any opinion on Raff to be much of a consensus since these days so few have even heard of him. That might be seen as a kind of default assessment.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> No I agree Brahms is higher than Raff. ...


If everything is so subjective, then on what basis do you say that?


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

JAS said:


> ...
> I wonder if we can call any opinion on Raff to be much of a consensus since these days so few have even heard of him. That might be seen as a kind of default assessment.


Raff's obscurity would be the result of consensus. Sometimes I disagree with the consensus. I think Rameau deserves more attention. However that doesn't mean "Rameau=Bach=Raff=Brahms=All music".


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

SanAntone said:


> Where is it found?


In a combination of considerations, including what music theory can reveal about the music that, by general consensus, is better than other music.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> However that doesn't mean "Rameau=Bach=Raff=Brahms=All music".


I think it's easier to compare contemporaries, but much harder to do between artists who were not, because of changes of idiomatic language that occur over time. 
Some time ago, we talked about whether there is an objective way to determine whether something is "juvenilia". I also had made a case in another thread that quite a number of final pieces of Joseph Haydn are no better than works by 18-19 year-old Mozart, and J. Haydn's late masses strike me as a typical example of "kapellmeister music" (albeit there are some good parts). Listen to the way they set _"suscipe deprecationem nostram"_ to music, for example. There's way more inventiveness in Mozart; way more expressive dimension in terms of chromaticism.





 missa brevis in F K.192




 spatzenmesse K.220




 missa brevis in D K.194





 nelson mass




 harmoniemesse


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> Some time ago, we talked about whether there is an objective way to determine whether something is "juvenilia".


Well there is, hammered. It's called "age".  Now whether you find Mozart's youthful works interesting though overall, and *as* interesting as his later works or the works of Haydn is a matter of opinion.


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