# Beethoven and Britain



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Once a year it's my turn to give a talk at my philosophical and literary society's lunch. (Sounds grand doesn't it!) On previous occasions I've presented Wagner and Schubert, but I try not to only do music, so last year I took on Dante's Inferno, essentially devoting a year of reading and research in order to present it. Having proved myself in literary matters, I can now return to my primary passion... classical music, and in February it's the great man himself - Beethoven. Yes, I'm excited and honoured to be presenting this. The first step is done in choosing the subject of my talk, the second step is deciding how to distill the subject matter in a way that doesn't test the endurance of my fellow society members in what is only lunch, not dinner also.

So the topic for my talk (as you've already seen in the title) is Beethoven and Britain. I'm in the Scottish Highlands.

Can I fill an hour or more with talk and musical snippets?

I already have much in mind which I'll present here in due course as I refine my material, but I'd like to see if you guys have any thoughts and knowledge on the subject. Fire away!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Beethoven's music was popular in the UK during the period. You can discuss the Royal Philharmonic Society's role in commissioning his 9th symphony. They invited him to visit but nothing came of it:

https://royalphilharmonicsociety.org.uk/rps_since_1813/key_moments/the_society_and_beethoven

Besides that, his Scottish and Irish Songs come to mind.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

From 1817 Beethoven owned an English-made Broadwood pianoforte, which he preferred to his French Érard.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Good point, Gallus and here's some more on that from Thad Carhart's _Piano Shop on the Left Bank_:

_Many have speculated that Beethoven attacked the keyboard with such fury in order to feel the vibrations of his music through the piano's cabinet as he gradually lost his hearing. In 1818 Broadwood, the pre-eminent English manufacturer of the day, offered him a grand piano that incorporated all of the latest features: stronger case and frame, trichord stringing, more responsive action. This piano, too, Beethoven damaged with the fervour of his playing (a contemporary reported that 'the broken strings were jumbled up like a thorn bush in a storm'), but he remained attached to it until his death in 1827._


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

There's always "Wellington's Victory", for what it's worth, which isn't very much. 

I don't think the Coriolan overture was intended to be performed with Shakespeare's play, but whatever German play it was written for would have surely used Shakespeare as a major source.

The "Rule Britannia" variations are nice and charming.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

waldvogel said:


> I don't think the Coriolan overture was intended to be performed with Shakespeare's play, but whatever German play it was written for would have surely used Shakespeare as a major source.


The music was written "for Heinrich Joseph von Collin's 1804 tragedy Coriolan." (Wiki) Collin's story was a bit different from Shakespeare's.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I wonder if there is any interest in hearing interpretations of Beethoven's music by way of British performers, orchestras, conductors. How do they stack up against, say, the Germans? Are there any worthwhile interpretive differences that could be heard by, say, lay persons?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

SONNET CLV said:


> I wonder if there is any interest in hearing interpretations of Beethoven's music by way of British performers, orchestras, conductors. How do they stack up against, say, the Germans? Are there any worthwhile interpretive differences that could be heard by, say, lay persons?


Certainly Sir John Eliot Gardiner's Beethoven symphony cycle stacks up well against any and is preferred by many! And his latest Missa Solemnis ain't chopped liver.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Apart from _Wellington's Victory, _another work linking to events of the time and to Britain is _The Ruins of Athens._ They where involved in the liberation of Greece, Lord Byron lost his life there and Athens was in ruins at the time. Its one of the works composed for RPO.

The bigger picture here is liberty and the Enlightenment: Eroica symphony, Ode to Joy, Fidelio, Egmont all tie into this.

In terms of music alone, there is the importance of UK's role in bringing about Symphony No. 9 and (maybe with a stretch) the late piano sonatas. The Hammerklavier Sonata was unprecedented and was meant for the pianists (and pianos!) of the future.

This extract from a letter by Beethoven is touching in light of how he never made it to UK: "England I would like to see and all the wonderful artists there. For me it would be of favourable as I can never achieve anything in Germany."

I suggest the use of audiovisual rather than just audio. I think that some scenes of Beethoven playing piano and the premiere of the 9th in _Immortal Beloved_ would be really useful here.

The bungled commission-by-correspondence that was the Scottish and Irish Songs could serve as a light anecdote. If I remember correctly, Beethoven was sent the lyrics to set but not the tunes. Someone here might be able to fill in on this.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Another connection, this time with London specifically: "Beethoven owned a Broadwood fortepiano built in 1817, a gift from Thomas Broadwood who had met Beethoven in Vienna in the summer of that year. Broadwood asked five fortepianists living in London to help him select the appropriate instrument and had the names of these men engraved on a plaque."

http://www.sjsu.edu/beethoven/research/beethoven_the_broadwood_fortepiano/

Yet another: Johann Andreas Stumpff, a piano and harp maker in London, fulfilled Beethoven's wish for Handel's complete works (as were known then). The 40-volume edition was delivered while Beethoven was on his deathbed. Beethoven was nonetheless overjoyed: "Handel is the greatest and ablest of all composers; from him I can still learn. Bring me the books!"

Both these gifts involved considerable expense.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Might be worth mentioning Britain's adoption of the 5th symphony as a symbol of the allied forces in WWII - the famous motif equates rhythmically to dot, dot, dot, dash which is Morse for 'V' and Winston Churchill began using the 'V' sign to mean 'victory'.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

This may be stretching it a bit, but Beethoven's lessons with Haydn took place between Haydn's two London residencies. When Haydn wrote music for England he began using a much larger musical palette because of the large orchestra sizes and greater variety of tone colours in London. It is just conceivable that Beethoven was attracted to this "bigger" approach to composition. I have no evidence to support this idea but it is interesting to consider the possibility.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Read the two or three essays/appreciations Shaw wrote about Beethoven -- especially the essay he penned to commemorate the centennial of Beethoven's death.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Olias said:


> This may be stretching it a bit, but Beethoven's lessons with Haydn took place between Haydn's two London residencies. When Haydn wrote music for England he began using a much larger musical palette because of the large orchestra sizes and greater variety of tone colours in London. It is just conceivable that Beethoven was attracted to this "bigger" approach to composition. I have no evidence to support this idea but it is interesting to consider the possibility.


Haydn will surely get a mention as he is part of the London story.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Here's something that might warrant a brief mention:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bridgetower#Meeting_with_Beethoven

And if you can find influences on a certain English composer, you could give a talk on Beethoven, Britain and Britten.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

brianvds said:


> Here's something that might warrant a brief mention:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bridgetower#Meeting_with_Beethoven
> 
> And if you can find influences on a certain English composer, you could give a talk on Beethoven, Britain and Britten.


Oh cool, I now have an excuse to include the Kreutzer Sonata


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