# Do good people make good music?



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

We touch on these sorts of things quite often but I couldn't find a thread dedicated to them.

*Does it matter to you whether a composer was a nice person and lived a good life or not? And how much does it matter or not to you? And why?
*
In this thread I would like to avoid their broadly political and even philosophical views and actions but to concentrate on how they lived their lives. Were they good partners, friends, neighbours, colleagues etc and what made them tick as people? Even without the political, quite a lot of this will concern behaviour that was quite normal in their time but perhaps less widely approved of now. So particular cases among recent and contemporary composers - and some of us may even know or have known some of them - may be the most interesting.

In all cases how does their behaviour and character influence how well you like their music?

For me the answer is that I appreciate a composer's music for itself (and often I know little about how they were as people, anyway). But I do wonder if actually knowing a composer - whether in life or through public exposure on TV etc - would influence how I like what I hear from them. But composers are rarely introduced to us in the mainstream media these days and I have never sought out more specialised sources.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Interesting question.

I assume that by Good people you are meaning some sort of moral judgement about them, whereas by Good music you mean something like high quality in a sense which does not relate to morality. I will also ignore music with words, as the words may then come into the picture.

First point is I can see little reason why there would be an correlation between the morality of a composer and the technical quality of their compositions. I would be interested if someone could suggest why you would expect such a thing.

On the question of whether it matters to me, I think the answer is "No - provided that they are dead".

I do not want to contribute positively to the life of someone I judge as "bad", so I might avoid listening to something by a living composer who I feel is trying to use their position to advance objectives that I dislike (and indeed, I'm not too keen on them using their position to advance objectives that I support). However, once someone is dead then I don't much care what they thought, as they are no longer there to benefit.

It's not just musicians. I dislike it intensely when people who are well known for (say) acting or being good at a sport use their fame to advance causes, and I dislike it whether I agree with them or not. The same (and perhaps even worse) with companies, where they use their advertising budget to spread a message about some morally-weighted issue, rather than just to tell us that their savoury snacks are very tasty (or whatever). I'd rather not know what they think, but if they publicise it then I will tend to see that as a negative, whatever their stated position - as I dislike people trying to manipulate me and/or playing at virtue-signalling.

Regarding the long dead, I think it is pretty fatuous to judge them by the standards of today. After all, who knows how we will be judged by people living in 100 years' time. I can only form my own judgements and live to values I have come to based on what is going on now or what is believed about the past. I am not willing to be judged by people in 100 years' time, and therefore I am also not justified in judging people who were around 100 years before now.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Only pointing out the cases where talent and high morals don't meet. Not-so-nice composers who were great: Wagner and Miles Davis.

Many contemporary Christian composers/musicians are just not naturally gifted or refined in their music, but at least some seemed very sincere. The music drove me nuts, but i felt I should like it at the time, and member was telling me it was Spirit-inspired.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

We once thought Catholic priests were all wonderful people. Then we learned otherwise.

Schubert, Smetana and many other composers died of syphilis they acquired from prostitutes. Does that make their music suspect or bad? Wagner and many, many, many other German and European conductors disliked or hated Jews. Does that make their music suspect?

I doubt the level of a person's talent has much to do with their morals or ethics. It isn't true in any other field; why would it be in music?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

When you read composer biographies it becomes apparent that many of them had an unpleasant demeanor. Genius often presents itself this way. There were some who seemed to be genuinely "nice": Haydn, Rossini, Mendelssohn, Dvorak, Bruckner, Korngold. Some were notoriously not so nice: Beethoven, Raff, Mahler, Pfitzner. Some just couldn't abide lesser musicians: Brahms, Schmidt, Prokofiev, even Elgar. But are these assessments accurate? or were their reputations made better or worse by their biographers? Hard to know for sure. I have in my time gotten to know several minor masters. Some I shared a drink with or walked the woods with. Alfred Reed, Norman Dello Joio, Bruce Boughton, Lee Holdridge, H. Owen Reed come to mind. And I can say without any hesitation that everyone of them was as nice, helpful and pleasant as could be. No sense of superiority. No condescension. Of course, none of them ranks alongside Beethoven or Brahms. Now, have a thread about conductors: the nice ones are rarely great, and the great ones rarely nice.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> When you read composer biographies it becomes apparent that many of them had an unpleasant demeanor. Genius often presents itself this way. There were some who seemed to be genuinely "nice": Haydn, Rossini, Mendelssohn, Dvorak, Bruckner, Korngold. Some were notoriously not so nice: Beethoven, Raff, Mahler, Pfitzner. Some just couldn't abide lesser musicians: Brahms, Schmidt, Prokofiev, even Elgar. But are these assessments accurate? or were their reputations made better or worse by their biographers? Hard to know for sure. I have in my time gotten to know several minor masters. Some I shared a drink with or walked the woods with. Alfred Reed, Norman Dello Joio, Bruce Boughton, Lee Holdridge, H. Owen Reed come to mind. And I can say without any hesitation that everyone of them was as nice, helpful and pleasant as could be. No sense of superiority. No condescension. Of course, none of them ranks alongside Beethoven or Brahms. Now, have a thread about conductors: the nice ones are rarely great, and the great ones rarely nice.


I'll add one more idea to this. For example Wagner gets singled out because he was just super talkative and we know much more about him than about some others. We have no idea how many antisemitic ideas might have crossed the minds of his contemporaries but they simply didn't put them into writing. Thus, saying that this or that person was nicer than this one isn't necessarily accurate if we are talking about people who lived 200 years ago and whom none of us have personally known. The reputation plays an immense role here.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I could not care less what the composer, artist, author, or musician were like - and in most cases I don't even know. I only care for the creations.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Although you need to deal with others to get the music performed, composition itself is, I presume, a fairly solitary activity (like writing). It may be that it tends to attract people who are not good at working with others.

Edit: People did seem to like Haydn as a person.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Now, have a thread about conductors: the nice ones are rarely great, and the great ones rarely nice.


these positions attract narcissists, where they can bask in the spotlight of attention. And narcissist are not pleasant people. You have the same in academia, where half the professors are narcissists.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

No. No. Only interested in Art.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ ... but if you felt or knew somehow that an artist was a wonderful person would that affect the way you found their art?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> We touch on these sorts of things quite often but I couldn't find a thread dedicated to them.
> 
> *Does it matter to you whether a composer was a nice person and lived a good life or not? And how much does it matter or not to you? And why? In all cases how does their behaviour and character influence how well you like their music?
> 
> *


*

There are some composers that I am drawn to because their worldview/spiritual view matches mine, like Bach and Bruckner; there are some I find interesting because I can sense they are searching for the ineffable, like Mahler; and there are some who present their suffering/pain/trouble with such authenticity that I can understand the human condition through them, like Beethoven and Shostakovich. Then there are those whose music is just fun, like Telemann and Grieg. I'm not so much concerned with their personal lives as I am with what they communicate to me.*


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ ... but if you felt or knew somehow that an artist was a wonderful person would that affect the way you found their art?


Personally, that kind of thing would make me want to begin to explore their art. Whether that continues is another thing. I have a friend who is a dedicated Christian and an insanely talented musician, and he works in the prog rock genre, so I have two of his CDs. Unfortunately, that style doesn't speak to me, so I rarely listen to them. I kind of feel bad about it, but it's okay; he's incredibly successful without me.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ ... but if you felt or knew somehow that an artist was a wonderful person would that affect the way you found their art?


For me, it is a side question, and mostly a matter of curiosity. Now, if Charles Manson wrote music that I liked, it might be an issue, but as far as I know, that is not the case.


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## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

Interesting question (and I wonder if you are thinking along the lines of Plato's idealized _Form of the Good_) applied personally... For me, no, a composer's behavior or beliefs, positive or negative, carries no weight for me aesthetically. However, if I know of a characteristic or attribute of a composer I may (or may not) attempt to read some of that into his or her music. For example, Sibelius was a dipsomaniac and I have often wondered what the effect of that might have had on his composing. (Some musicologist _must_ have written about this, but I have never pursued that research and ought to...)


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

JAS said:


> For me, it is a side question, and mostly a matter of curiosity. Now, if Charles Manson wrote music that I liked, it might be an issue, but as far as I know, that is not the case.


the most horrible composer is likely Gesualdo, and I have no problem enjoying his music. I think it is amazing


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

There is a local lawyer who collects the artwork of James Earl Ray, the person who shot Martin Luther King, Jr. I look at those and think that nobody would care about these pieces if he hadn't done something notorious. Sometimes people's artwork gets attention just because of the notoriety of the artist. That bothers me.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Well, it seems that Gesualdo claimed mental illness, and his wife _was_ cheating on him (not that it justifies murder).


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

People in general are flawed, so it shouldn't come as a shock that some of the big gun composers had flaws. It's also hard to really judge someone you never knew, even if you're given an ample amount of anecdotes.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> There is a local lawyer who collects the artwork of James Earl Ray, the person who shot Martin Luther King, Jr. I look at those and think that nobody would care about these pieces if he hadn't done something notorious. Sometimes people's artwork gets attention just because of the notoriety of the artist. That bothers me.


Apparently there is artwork by John Wayne Gacy and Charles Manson, and it sells for pretty high prices. As far as I can see, it is terrible as an art product, so I have no moral issue with which to struggle in that regard.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

There were allegations against Mikhail Pletnev. Now I am making no statement about whether there was or wasn't any substance to those allegations (for legal reasons ).

I have some of his performances, and I have no qualms about continuing to listen to them.
In terms of buying more of his performances, I would probably not do so - even though, as mentioned above, I have no basis for assuming that the allegations had substance.
However, if he was no longer alive then I would be quite willing to buy his performances.

I don't know if this makes sense or not.

Incidentally, I would probably not listen to the oeuvre of Gary Glitter - for many, many reasons.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

JAS said:


> Apparently there is artwork by John Wayne Gacy and Charles Manson, and it sells for pretty high prices. As far as I can see, it is terrible as an art product, so I have no moral issue with which to struggle in that regard.


Yeah, people go crazy over novelties. The chair Ian Curtis kicked when he hanged himself was being auctioned on Ebay not too long ago. People are weird.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ ... but if you felt or knew somehow that an artist was a wonderful person would that affect the way you found their art?


No.........................


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

You have to be a good composer to make good music. It's the only criteria.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

JAS said:


> For me, it is a side question, and mostly a matter of curiosity. Now, if Charles Manson wrote music that I liked, it might be an issue, but as far as I know, that is not the case.


You probably won't like it.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"One of the more unruly musicians was a bassoonist named Geyersbach. He was three years older than Bach and made a point of being offensive. One dark night he confronted Bach on the street and began hitting him with a stick and calling him a "dirty dog." Bach was not altogether blameless. He had poked fun of Geyersbach and called him a "nanny goat bassoonist." Not one to take a beating lightly, Bach drew his sword and the fight was on. Dodging the stick, Bach made several thrusts that pierced Geyersbach's jacket before passers-by rushed in to prevent bloodshed."
https://www.wpr.org/bach-draws-his-sword

"Whoever doesn't want me can kiss my ***" -Mozart


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## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

Along these lines, see the book by John Bridcut: _Britten's Children_ (2006).


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Not necessarily.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Jacck said:


> the most horrible composer is likely Gesualdo, and I have no problem enjoying his music. I think it is amazing





JAS said:


> Well, it seems that Gesualdo claimed mental illness, and his wife _was_ cheating on him (not that it justifies murder).


To be fair, it is highly unlikely that Gesualdo actually did the deed himself, and for his time it was an acceptable response to his wife's adultery.

We should be careful not to judge those from previous eras by today's standards.

For some context: *Gesualdo da Venosa : the music, not the life*


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

I am a social liberal and a Social Democrat; however in this field *I care about the music more than political concerns*.

For example, is the St. Matthew Passion Anti-Semetic? Yes, Matthew has a verse where a crowd of Jews say, "His blood be on us and our children." That verse has been used throughout history as a justification to persecute Jews (who, after all, are but distant descendants of the ones that put Jesus to death, assuming that a crowd rather than just the leaders of the Pharisees and Sadducees wanted Jesus put to death. Yet, to those who would want to stop performing the work, I say it is one of the greatest pieces of music ever. Keep your hands off my Klemperer, my Gardiner!

Did Hitler promote the music of Beethoven, Bruckner, and most infamously Wagner? Yes. It is fine to note that, but I love some of their works.

*To conclude, if Hitler composed a symphony that is agreed by critics to be the equal of (say) Sibelius 2, I would illegally download it (so as not to make Neo-Nazis profit) and put it on repeat!*


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

*Do good people make good music?

Does it matter to you whether a composer was a nice person and lived a good life or not? And how much does it matter or not to you? And why?*

I hope others would elect to judge me based upon the good that I've done, and not for the times when I've done bad. In this sense, if a composer has brought forth a piece of music that has added something beautiful to this often cruel and unjust world; then why not celebrate the beauty? Why throw away the good part with the bad part when we all fall short anyway?


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

*Re: OP
*
A small positive correlation.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

JAS said:


> For me, it is a side question, and mostly a matter of curiosity. Now, if Charles Manson wrote music that I liked, it might be an issue, but as far as I know, that is not the case.


A little off topic, but I was unaware that Charles Manson recorded an album a year before the Tate murders. The things you learn around here.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I think I tend to avoid Wagner because of the overblown egomania and less the anti-semitism (Tchaikovsky was also a vehement anti-semite but that never gets talked about: and that's not arbitrary, it's because Wagner was explicitly promoted by Hitler and not Tchaikovsky, obviously). Only a narcissist can make 6 hour long operas and demand there to be no intermission. That doesn't stop me from bumping the overtures or individual excerpts from the operas - that's GOOD stuff.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I think I tend to avoid Wagner because of the overblown egomania and less the anti-semitism (Tchaikovsky was also a vehement anti-semite but that never gets talked about: and that's not arbitrary, it's because Wagner was explicitly promoted by Hitler and not Tchaikovsky, obviously). Only a narcissist can make 6 hour long operas and demand there to be no intermission. That doesn't stop me from bumping the overtures or individual excerpts from the operas - that's GOOD stuff.


I feel it might be because Wagner wrote a long essay about it and Tchaikovsky didn't. Just guessing...


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I feel it might be because Wagner wrote a long essay about it and Tchaikovsky didn't. Just guessing...


I don't know, AB :lol:... I think we should discuss this essay a bit further :devil:.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

annaw said:


> I don't know, AB :lol:... I think we should discuss this essay a bit further :devil:.


Oh God. Noooooooooooooooo. :devil:


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I think I tend to avoid Wagner because of the overblown egomania and less the anti-semitism (Tchaikovsky was also a vehement anti-semite but that never gets talked about: and that's not arbitrary, it's because Wagner was explicitly promoted by Hitler and not Tchaikovsky, obviously). Only a narcissist can make 6 hour long operas and demand there to be no intermission. That doesn't stop me from bumping the overtures or individual excerpts from the operas - that's GOOD stuff.


PS. I just wondered where you got the idea that Wagner operas demand no intermission?

There were intermissions in 1876. I think you'll find there are intermissions these days too. (And if it's a 6-hour opera, complain to the conductor: even Götterdämmerung should only take around 4.5 hours... and if it's done right, you'll be on the edge of your seat for every one of those 270 minutes)


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> PS. I just wondered where you got the idea that Wagner operas demand no intermission?
> 
> There were intermissions in 1876. I think you'll find there are intermissions these days too. (And if it's a 6-hour opera, complain to the conductor: even Götterdämmerung should only take around 4.5 hours)


Bayreuth's seats are said to be unusually uncomfortable. Wagner himself had to sit and watch as well, after all. From what I've read, Wagner conducted his own operas famously fast and the almost-5-hour-long Parsifals started appearing only later.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

annaw said:


> Bayreuth's seats are said to be unusually uncomfortable. Wagner himself had to sit and watch as well, after all. From what I've read, Wagner conducted his own operas famously fast and the almost-5-hour-long Parsifals started appearing only later.


Dunno. You should try the seats in the Arts Centre, Melbourne, Victoria. I think Bayreuth has nothing on their bum-numbing capabilities. (Plus, they didn't do a real dragon. Swines!)


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> PS. I just wondered where you got the idea that Wagner operas demand no intermission?
> 
> There were intermissions in 1876. I think you'll find there are intermissions these days too. (And if it's a 6-hour opera, complain to the conductor: even Götterdämmerung should only take around 4.5 hours... and if it's done right, you'll be on the edge of your seat for every one of those 270 minutes)


I always thought he demaded otherwise? I'm not sure where I've heard that, but it must have been some misinformation that just stuck with me, and also seemed pretty believable too!


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I always thought he demaded otherwise? I'm not sure where I've heard that, but it must have been some misinformation that just stuck with me, and also seemed pretty believable too!


Unfortunately, he ordered Brownshirts to serve the ice-creams and members of the Death's Head Squadron to dispense tea and coffee. [/S]

(In case it's not clear, I find neither Brownshirts nor the SS to be amusing. My point is that all sorts of crapola gets accreted to the myth of Wagner, by good people and bad indifferently. My general guide on issues of Wagner is: check the sources!)


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## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I always thought he demaded otherwise? I'm not sure where I've heard that, but it must have been some misinformation that just stuck with me, and also seemed pretty believable too!


Wagner wanted at least two of his operas performed w/o intermissions: _Flying Dutchman_ and _Rheingold_; he saw this not simply as a means of breaking with tradition but as if to say "my writing is way too dramatic and exciting to permit any interruption!"


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Ich muss Caligari werden said:


> Wagner wanted at least two of his operas performed w/o intermissions: _Flying Dutchman_ and _Rheingold_; he saw this not simply as a means of breaking with tradition but as if to say "my writing is way too dramatic and exciting to permit any interruption!"


That's true but I think the Bayreuth link which AB quoted above said that as well. Wagner simply wanted his art to be taken seriously and not as some background music. That's also why he didn't want any light sources to be used in Bayreuth's concert hall during opera performances.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

ORigel said:


> I am a social liberal and a Social Democrat; however in this field *I care about the music more than political concerns*.
> 
> For example, is the St. Matthew Passion Anti-Semetic? Yes, Matthew has a verse where a crowd of Jews say, "His blood be on us and our children." That verse has been used throughout history as a justification to persecute Jews (who, after all, are but distant descendants of the ones that put Jesus to death, assuming that a crowd rather than just the leaders of the Pharisees and Sadducees wanted Jesus put to death. Yet, to those who would want to stop performing the work, I say it is one of the greatest pieces of music ever. Keep your hands off my Klemperer, my Gardiner!
> 
> ...


Just to point out that the text of the St Matthew Passion was written by devout Jew and that attempts to use it in as a justification got anti-semitism are of course an anti-Christian aberration.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

If we demand personal morality from our great composers I’m afraid we have rather slender pickings. We know that even as devout a man as Haydn kept mistresses and Beethoven used brothels. As as for the romantics.......
When we come to Wagner we not only meet objectionable behaviour but monstrous philosophy. 
So they really do make Domingo look quite tame


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Coach G said:


> I hope others would elect to judge me based upon the good that I've done, and not for the times when I've done bad.


I'm afraid that in the current world it works the other way round. You have only to commit one slip against the demands of an activist clique and you will be cancelled - cast into the outer darkness with no right of appeal and no prospect of any return.
And it doesn't matter how much good you might have done.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

DavidA said:


> If we demand personal morality from our great composers I'm afraid we have rather slender pickings. We know that even as devout a man as Haydn kept mistresses and Beethoven used brothels. As as for the romantics.......
> When we come to Wagner we not only meet objectionable behaviour but monstrous philosophy.
> So they really do make Domingo look quite tame


what exactly is immoral in keeping mistresses and using brothels? There is no harm to anyone, so the acts are perfectly moral.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Jacck said:


> what exactly is immoral in keeping mistresses and using brothels? There is no harm to anyone, so the acts are perfectly moral.


This sounds a bit utilitarian moral understanding but you cannot assume that DavidA's understanding of it is similar. We have different understandings of morality and what is moral for one isn't for other. It might be more effective to talk about ethics because morality is a bit more "absolute" while ethics can come down to our individual views of good and bad, not right and wrong like morals.

For example, for a Christian, using brothels is morally wrong. For a moral nihilist it's not because he denies existence of such evaluation.

Thus, I don't think discussing this further is a particularly fruitful undertaking.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2020)

Jacck said:


> what exactly is immoral in keeping mistresses and using brothels? There is no harm to anyone, so the acts are perfectly moral.


Whether 'harm' is caused is a debatable point, which forms part of the process of determining what is and isn't moral. Just because you declare that no harm is caused does not mean we can assume your moral standards are higher or lower (or different) than anyone else's. Your moral thinking may or may not be flawed.

As Anna says, however, dwelling on this may be important in a more general discussion of morals, but is perhaps less useful if it leads away from the topic of the OP.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

DavidA said:


> If we demand personal morality from our great composers I'm afraid we have rather slender pickings. We know that even as devout a man as Haydn kept mistresses and Beethoven used brothels. As as for the romantics.......
> When we come to Wagner we not only meet objectionable behaviour but monstrous philosophy.
> So they really do make Domingo look quite tame


Let him who is without sin compose the first score.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Good people make absolutely boring music.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

annaw said:


> This sounds a bit utilitarian moral understanding but you cannot assume that DavidA's understanding of it is similar. We have different understandings of morality and what is moral for one isn't for other. It might be more effective to talk about ethics because morality is a bit more "absolute" while ethics can come down to our individual views of good and bad, not right and wrong like morals. For example, for a Christian, using brothels is morally wrong. For a moral nihilist it's not because he denies existence of such evaluation. Thus, I don't think discussing this further is a particularly fruitful undertaking.


Christians, especially the modern degenerate ones, have warped and distorted notions of morality. Most Christians dont understand the message of Christ and act and think contrary to what he tought. Christ in general was pretty compassionate and forgiving about adultery, prostitution etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery

but I agree this discussion does not belong here, so let us stop


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Jacck said:


> Christians, especially the modern degenerate ones, have warped and distorted notions of morality. Most Christians dont understand the message of Christ and act and think contrary to what he tought. Christ in general was pretty compassionate and forgiving about adultery, prostitution etc
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery
> 
> but I agree this discussion does not belong here, so let us stop


To be compassionate, you don't have to say some deed is morally right. Forgiveness itself assumes that _something_ needs to be forgiven (we don't "forgive" someone if they helped us).

But I agree, let's leave it .


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

NLAdriaan said:


> Good people make absolutely boring music.


So if you formed a strong friendship (based on deep appreciation of character) with a composer, you would expect to hate their music?


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> So if you formed a strong friendship (based on deep appreciation of character) with a composer, you would expect to hate their music?


Boredom and hate have nothing to do with each other.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JAS said:


> Let him who is without sin compose the first score.


Absolutely but I am just stating the facts.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

NLAdriaan said:


> Boredom and hate have nothing to do with each other.


Maybe hate and tedium? I would think that a sustained and active hatred must eventually grow tedious, or at least exhausting.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

NLAdriaan said:


> Good people make absolutely boring music.


Not in my experience, professionally speaking that is. Most where very cordial and decent, as well as brilliant. In fact I'd almost go so far as to say the better they were, the nicer.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

mikeh375 said:


> Not in my experience, professionally speaking that is. Most where very cordial and decent, as well as brilliant. In fact I'd almost go so far as to say the better they were, the nicer.


So, you do actually personally know a significant number of live composers?


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

JAS said:


> Maybe hate and tedium? I would think that a sustained and active hatred must eventually grow tedious, or at least exhausting.


But the OP is about boredom.

Boredom leading to hate seems a bit far fetched. Hate leading to exhaustion, leading to a deep sleep however, could equal boredom, leading to tedium, leading to a deep sleep. So, if the OP would have asked: "Do good people make you eventually very sleepy?", we might combine the two emotional responses of hatred and boredom.

Maybe we should discuss first what makes 'good people' good.


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## Dick Johnson (Apr 14, 2020)

JAS said:


> For me, it is a side question, and mostly a matter of curiosity. Now, if Charles Manson wrote music that I liked, it might be an issue, but as far as I know, that is not the case.


Scary but true fact - Charles Manson _did_ write music. He wanted to be in a rock band and briefly attached himself to Dennis Wilson, the drummer of the Beach Boys, during that band's most creative period. Manson wrote a song for them ("Never Learn Not to Love") that made it onto their "20/20" album. The song was credited to Dennis Wilson alone after he made some modifications to it and Manson was angry at the lack of credit. After that, Manson and the Beach Boys had a falling out - lucky for the band this happened before all of the craziest stuff happened with Manson. Dennis Wilson was permanently psychologically scarred once the true nature of Manson's evil became known. Dennis supposedly thought Manson was a weird but harmless guy at first - then got very scared later.

I enjoy the Beach Boys as a rock band but always make sure to skip that Manson track on 20/20 - it sounds absolutely twisted and evil.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

^^^ Fortunately, my qualification of the statement was music that I liked. I think I am safe if it was Rock/Pop music.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

NLAdriaan said:


> Maybe we should discuss first what makes 'good people' good.


People "like us," of course. (I say this only partly in jest.)


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

NLAdriaan said:


> But the OP is about boredom.
> 
> Boredom leading to hate seems a bit far fetched. Hate leading to exhaustion, leading to a deep sleep however, could equal boredom, leading to tedium, leading to a deep sleep. So, if the OP would have asked: "Do good people make you eventually very sleepy?", we might combine the two emotional responses of hatred and boredom.
> 
> Maybe we should discuss first what makes 'good people' good.


Defining what is "good" either in people or music is complicated and impossible to define to everyone's satisfaction

For a long time good was defined according to religious dogma. Divine laws represented what was accepted as an objective standard. Atheists have tried to argue that we don't need a Divine Creator in order to establish objective morality. But ironically many of their assumptions originated from a religious tradition, e.g. the "Golden Rule."

Many people settle for defining "good" as what their conscience dictates (often changing over time), and can lead to some scary things, Hitler, for example.

Defining what is good music boils down to what each of us enjoys to listen to.

The upshot, for me, is that the question posed by the thread is moot.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SanAntone said:


> Defining what is "good" either in people or music is complicated and impossible to define to everyone's satisfaction
> 
> For a long time good was defined according to religious dogma. Divine laws represented what was accepted as an objective standard. *Atheists have tried to argue that we don't need a Divine Creator in order to establish objective morality. But ironically many of their assumptions originated from a religious tradition, e.g. the "Golden Rule."*
> 
> ...


It is interesting that today some atheists are coming round to call themselves 'Christian atheists'!


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I have not heard that term. When I attend church, it is a local UU church, and we have lots of members who call themselves "spiritual atheists." (Most of them are former Catholics.)

But, more in keeping with the topic, you can be a good person as an atheist. I know quite a few examples. They just have to decide that how they treat other people is important because they like the idea. And for the sake of the thread, I take "good person" in a more general sense, such as to be something close to being someone you might like to be friends with.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Certainly unless there is something particularly objectionable about a man’s philosophy, as some find with eg Wagner, there is no reason to not enjoy the music. Beethoven sounds a perfectly disagreeable individual but who wouldn’t be grateful for the music?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Jacck said:


> what exactly is immoral in keeping mistresses and using brothels? There is no harm to anyone, so the acts are perfectly moral.


It's perfectly moral for an atheist but for a Christian, the bible says those acts are immoral and they do not question the bible. Morality is not universally defined the same.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

I couldn't care less what the composer was like. I view the music as something independent of the creator.
Historians could uncover evidence tomorrow that Bach was a serial killer and I would still listen to his music.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> It's perfectly moral for an atheist but for a Christian, the bible says those acts are immoral and they do not question the bible. Morality is not universally defined the same.


Also, your wife might object . . . or maybe not.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Just because you like the music of a certain composer doesn't mean that you'd like to have them over for dinner. You don't marry or become best friends with the composer because you like his music. 

In the most obvious case of Wagner, you're celebrating the music, not the man's racial views/philandering/running away from creditors. 

Plumbing, carpentry and electrical work are as much an art as they are a craft. As someone who finds no joy (and has no aptitude) in doing work around the house, I rely on contractors for most repairs. So when I choose a contractor what should I look for: quality work at a fair price; or should I quiz the person to make sure that their moral standards apart from their craft is that of a model citizen? If they do a good job, and I find out five years after the contractor died (and Wagner has been dead a lot longer than that) that he was spouting off racist remarks at a bar one night, or was out cheating on his wife all the time, or that he used to kick his dog; then what should I do? Should I rip out the work he did and pay someone else of a higher moral standard to redo the whole thing all over again? 

Do you see how silly this becomes?


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

DavidA said:


> Certainly unless there is something particularly objectionable about a man's philosophy, as some find with eg Wagner, there is no reason to not enjoy the music. Beethoven sounds a perfectly disagreeable individual but who wouldn't be grateful for the music?


I see Beethoven more as a sympathetic figure who was abused by an angry, hate-filled and alcoholic father. Beethoven was emotionally scarred and became much of what his father was. His handling of the custody of his nephew Karl was by all accounts a mess; but then again, Beethoven himself was a mess. They say he was a royal slob with hardly a flat surface in his whole house that wasn't covered by clutter, and an un-emptied chamber pot as well. No wonder he couldn't manage to find a wife despite his unmatched musical talent. As I see it, we're the lucky ones who can celebrate the beautiful music of this man who went through emotional hell.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Coach G said:


> . . . They say he was a royal slob with hardly a flat surface in his whole house that wasn't covered by clutter . . .


Isn't that what flat surfaces are for?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Coach G said:


> Just because you like the music of a certain composer doesn't mean that you'd like to have them over for dinner. You don't marry or become best friends with the composer because you like his music.
> 
> In the most obvious case of Wagner, you're celebrating the music, not the man's racial views/philandering/running away from creditors.
> 
> ...


Yes but when the man's philosophy is contained in the music then that might give you a problem. Is the guy who has fitted your kitchen is a racist then the kitchen does not affect you because it is non-philosophic. Mind you if I knew a guy was a racist I wouldn't have him to fit my kitchen


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Coach G said:


> I see Beethoven more as a sympathetic figure who was abused by an angry, hate-filled and alcoholic father. Beethoven was emotionally scarred and became much of what his father was. His handling of the custody of his nephew Karl was by all accounts a mess; but then again, Beethoven himself was a mess. They say he was a royal slob with hardly a flat surface in his whole house that wasn't covered by clutter, and an un-emptied chamber pot as well. No wonder he couldn't manage to find a wife despite his unmatched musical talent. As I see it, we're the lucky ones who can celebrate the beautiful music of this man who went through emotional hell.


Beethoven he's only a sympathetic figure because we listen to his music from 250 years distance. He wouldn't have been that sympathetic if we have known him and had to put up with his temper tantrums and unreasonable behaviour. Obviously there were reasons for it but that doesn't make it any easier to live with


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I think that Beethoven is also somewhat sympathetic because we know about this hearing problem, which is a particularly cruel burden for a composer.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JAS said:


> I think that Beethoven is also somewhat sympathetic because we know about this hearing problem, which is a particularly cruel burden for a composer.


Ironically it was his very difficult character that allowed him to overcome his hearing problem and compose. Oh boy! What struggles! What music! What we owe this tortured soul - and those who put up with him!


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2020)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> It's perfectly moral for an atheist


Says who? 'Atheism' says nothing about morals. The OP was asking if good people make good music - I don't think god's presence or absence is necessary to the discussion.

If you really want to know what is or isn't 'moral for an atheist', there's easy searches to be done on the internet to find out.

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/ethics-without-gods/

https://humanism.org.uk/humanism/the-big-questions/


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

DavidA said:


> Yes but when the man's philosophy is contained in the music then that might give you a problem. Is the guy who has fitted your kitchen is a racist then the kitchen does not affect you because it is non-philosophic. Mind you if I knew a guy was a racist I wouldn't have him to fit my kitchen


If we're talking about Wagner, then I guess a case can be made that one or two of his characters from his operas can be perceived as Jewish stereotypes; at least that's a theory, that some musical scholars suggest. Again, I would say, why throw out the good part with the bad part? The way I see it, if George Solti, Daniel Barenboim, Leonard Bernstein, and a bunch of other highly regarded and respected Jewish musicians are going to all the trouble of programming and recording Wagner's operas, and they see enough good in Wagner that they would want to celebrate the 95% that is beautiful versus the 5% that we find ugly; then why shouldn't I give Wagner the same chance?

As for not hiring a qualified and reasonably-priced plumber on account of him being a racist, I can understand if the guy's an out-and-out and active KKK or Neo-Nazi (and Wagner was neither of those), but by what standard do you judge otherwise? Does he enjoy racial/ethnic jokes? Does he engage in making prejudice or stereotypical remarks when he's out with friends? Does he employ an ethnically diverse crew of helpers? Does he elect to live in an all-White suburban neighborhood? Does he support political candidates that you deem as good for oppressed minority groups?

Where does it begin and where does it end?


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I am a fan of notes on the paper and tones in my ears. I don't dislike any composer because of their principles differing from mine, unless it affects the notes on the paper in a negative way.



JAS said:


> Also, your wife might object . . . or maybe not.


unless you are Brahms and have no wife


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

"There have been such people who wrote gorgeous, glorious music, who were villains of the first water, maybe the second water, too".---David Raksin, 1988


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