# Operas you DON'T like



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

OK, we all love opera otherwise we wouldn't be regulars in this forum. And virtually all operas that I know always have something that I like, be it at least a couple of arias. Mamascarlatti was saying that if she can't find something she likes in an opera, she has the feeling that she didn't try hard enough - good point!

But just to get a discussion going, I thought it would be fun, for a change, to start a thread about operas one *doesn't* like, with a line about why. This isn't meant to step on anybody toes (or favorites) but rather to just offer points for debate. I respect everybody's opinions and understand that likes and dislikes are a matter of personal taste and there is no wright or wrong about it. At the very least, talking about one's dislikes may even lead to a change of mind and new appreciation.

I know that I should always refrain from the very human impulse to consider that if someone doesn't like something that I love, it's not necessarily because the person "doesn't get it" - not liking an opera may have to do with an unfortunate first encounter with it when given by a mediocre production, or thanks to a large number of intervening factors, or just to some isolated aspect that rubbed the listener the wrong way - therefore a list like this doesn't necessarily imply a judgment of value (especially not one about the listener). And of course I fully recognize that if *I* tried to compose an opera the result would be infinitely worse than even the one I dislike the most; so, listing my dislikes is not meant to sound pretentious. But again, like I said, it could be fun as a starting point.

Gee, the above disclaimer is getting so long, that one might say I'm afraid of getting stonned to death.:lol:

So, let me be courageous [Almaviva gets into police riot gear with a large stone shield, just in case], and here I go first:

I Lombardi - the choral music doesn't live up to Verdi's standards in other operas and is overused (although a couple of them are good). It all feels unbalanced.

Madama Butterfly - its wild popularity puzzles me since I think its ultra-lachrimose libretto is annoying (I do recognize that it's got some very good arias).

Parsifal - the music is sublime but I can't stand its libretto. I agree with those who have defined it as "incense and pretense":lol:. All that talk about pure blood and sin gets in my nerves.

Les Huguenots - I find Grand Opéra à la Meyerbeer kind of tiresome, not to forget the bombastic orchestration.

Faust - another one that is hugely popular but I consider Berlioz's La Damnation de Faust vastly superior so the comparison ruined it for me.

Manon Lescault - For me, it's a poor man's Manon (Massenet's I mean, also vastly superior in my opinion) and is a theatrical failure with too much happening in between acts - like "come again, how did they end up in a desert in Louisiana (?!?) already?"

Pique Dame (The Queen of Spades) - it's not that I think it's bad, it may just be because I had such high expectations after being completely in awe of Eugene Onegin, that I got disappointed with Pique Dame.

Werther - I felt like saying - "Mister Werther, would you please stop whining and just kill yourself already?" (this romantic character longing for death in this case worked better in literature than in opera)

Nabucco - Sorry, Maestro Verdi, I love you, and your _Va pensiero_ is phenomenal, but Nabucco *is* a little boring.

OK, does anybody else care for exposing himself/herself to being stonned to death?


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

I'm having a tough time warming up to Pelleas et Melisande. My first non-'numbers' piece, and an opera of nothing but recitative has me a bit nonplussed.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Werther - I felt like saying - "Mister Werther, would you please stop whining and just kill yourself already?" (this romantic character longing for death in this case worked better in literature than in opera)


I don't mind Werther as long as I keep mind that he is the product of a certain age and world view. And Jonas Kaufmann and Sophie Koch in this wonderful production from Paris made me love the opera.



Almaviva said:


> Parsifal - the music is sublime but I can't stand its libretto. I agree with those who have defined it as "incense and pretense". All that talk about pure blood and sin gets in my nerves.


So far I have tried once to watch it but the libretto also put me off. But will try again.



Almaviva said:


> Pique Dame (The Queen of Spades) - it's not that I think it's bad, it may just be because I had such high expectations after being completely in awe of Eugene Onegin, that I got disappointed with Pique Dame.


Certainly it's not as sublime as Onegin, but it has some wonderful moments. Who could resist such a declaration of love from this man?









As I said elsewhere, I like something in most operas I see, but I have to force myself to watch Rigoletto and Turandot because I find the characters either repellent (Turandot, Calaf, the Duke and to a certain extent Rigoletto) or a little irritating (Liu, Gilda).

I'm not wild about Verdi's Macbeth. I love Shakespeare's Macbeth and I feel that Verdi really failed with the witches - they are supposed to be full of foreboding and menace, but Verdi wrote relentlessly jolly upbeat music for them which seems to me to be seriously out of place.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

"Bird from Cosmos", "Rocketeers", "The Chimney-sweep", "Three Men in Civilian Clothes", "Stanley" and "Fitter W-Z" by Apolinary Szeluto. I know it's hard to belive but I don't like any of them.

Och, and Barber of Seville.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Gounod's Faust : A utter trivialization of Goethe's great play. Bland music, dramatically inert, 
no there there. His Rome&Juliet: Ditto, but the music is not only bland but annoyingly saccharine. Musical pabulum.

Virgil Thomson: Four Saints In Three Acts: Silly, pretentious and boring. The score is so self-consciously simplistic it's like the musical equivalent of "see spot run". Prokofiev called it
"Four Notes In Three Acts". 

Glass: Einstein on the Beach: I'd rather watch paint dry on a house or listen to static on the radio for hours.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> I'm having a tough time warming up to Pelleas et Melisande. My first non-'numbers' piece, and an opera of nothing but recitative has me a bit nonplussed.


On the other hand Pelleas et Melisande ends very well - one of the most spectacular death scenes in all of opera. I find its music dreamy, hypnotic. Almost nothing but recitative is a problem, I agree, but I still like it.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

superhorn said:


> Gounod's Faust : A utter trivialization of Goethe's great play. Bland music, dramatically inert,
> no there there. His Rome&Juliet: Ditto, but the music is not only bland but annoyingly saccharine. Musical pabulum.
> 
> Virgil Thomson: Four Saints In Three Acts: Silly, pretentious and boring. The score is so self-consciously simplistic it's like the musical equivalent of "see spot run". Prokofiev called it
> ...


Agreed for Gounod. "Four notes in three acts"-LOL, really funny!
Einstein on the Beach - this one I don't know.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> "Bird from Cosmos", "Rocketeers", "The Chimney-sweep", "Three Men in Civilian Clothes", "Stanley" and "Fitter W-Z" by Apolinary Szeluto. I know it's hard to belive but I don't like any of them.
> 
> Och, and Barber of Seville.


:lol: good one.

And all of Rossini if I know you well by now.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I don't mind Werther as long as I keep mind that he is the product of a certain age and world view. And Jonas Kaufmann and Sophie Koch in this wonderful production from Paris made me love the opera.


Wow, very recent DVD, 2010. Maybe I should give Werther another try.



> So far I have tried once to watch it but the libretto also put me off. But will try again.


Since I don't know German, for me the best way to enjoy Parsifal is to just listen to it without following the libretto so I can just enjoy the music.



> Certainly it's not as sublime as Onegin, but it has some wonderful moments. Who could resist such a declaration of love from this man?


I can resist it.:devil:



> As I said elsewhere, I like something in most operas I see, but I have to force myself to watch Rigoletto and Turandot because I find the characters either repellent (Turandot, Calaf, the Duke and to a certain extent Rigoletto) or a little irritating (Liu, Gilda).


I'm not crazy about Turandot either. But about Rigoletto I am, even though all characters there are indeed repellent, and I'd include Gilda there; come on, woman, you get rapped, betrayed, used and abused, and you still sacrifice yoursef for the Duke??? But the problem with disliking Rigoletto is that the music is just too good. Which is incoherent with what I said about Parsifal, I know. Who knows why I make allowances to Rigoletto but not to Parsifal? I don't know myself, I just do.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

I honestly can't say that I hate any of the, say, 100/200 or so most popular operas in the repertoire - not any of those I have heard anyway. And truth be told, they must be very good indeed. How many operas have there been composed in history? Way more than 20.000, right? It's virtually impossible that a poor work would still be popular today when there is competition from thousands of others.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> But the problem with disliking Rigoletto is that the music is just too good. Which is incoherent with what I said about Parsifal, I know. Who knows why I make allowances to Rigoletto but not to Parsifal? I don't know myself, I just do.


Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Rigoletto, I have two DVDS, one VHS, a CD, and will get the Mantova DVDwhen it comes out. But I have to make myself watch these awful people sing this sublime music, and I know I'll cry at some point.


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

I don't like Verdi. I think he's more of an entertainer than an artist. Puccini is the same but at least it's inventive.

Janacek doesn't thrill me either.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

How is Puccini more inventive than Verdi? Verdi was one of pioneers of Italian style, if not ahead, then surely in line with his times while Puccini was heavily backwarded - writing works like Tosca in times of mature Mahler and Strauss was inventive?


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

I said Puccini is on the same wavelength as Verdi. To entertain. Nothing more. Puccini's harmonies are closer than Verdi's but it's really all the same. Of course you can't mention Puccini in the same breath as Mahler and Strauss.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Edward Elgar said:


> I said Puccini is on the same wavelength as Verdi. To entertain. Nothing more.


Nothing more is needed. When I listen/watch Rosenkavalier or Salome I do so for the same reason as La Boheme: to be entertained. I've never listened to an opera to be bored.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Edward Elgar said:


> I said Puccini is on the same wavelength as Verdi. To entertain. Nothing more. Puccini's harmonies are closer than Verdi's but it's really all the same. Of course you can't mention Puccini in the same breath as Mahler and Strauss.


Verdi evolved from Bel Canto with clear divisions between arias and recitative to scenes of four arias to continuous music such as in Otello and Parsifal which are actually quite sophisticated, not to forget his Requiem. Some of Verdi's operas are pretty spectacular and very precise in orchestration. I think Verdi was *more* creative than Puccini, not less, and had almost three times Puccini's output. This doesn't stop me from disliking some of his operas, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that he was just an uncreative entertainer. For me only Wagner can match Verdi, not even Mozart (as far as opera goes, of course, since Mozart mastered other genres as well).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> I honestly can't say that I hate any of the, say, 100/200 or so most popular operas in the repertoire - not any of those I have heard anyway. And truth be told, they must be very good indeed. How many operas have there been composed in history? Way more than 20.000, right? It's virtually impossible that a poor work would still be popular today when there is competition from thousands of others.


That would be 40,000, with an estimated 1,600 worthy of consideration and some 200 being prime material. So, yes, chances are that these 200 are pretty darn good.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

> Madama Butterfly - its wild popularity puzzles me since I think its ultra-lachrimose libretto is annoying (I do recognize that it's got some very good arias).


The lachrimosity doesn't bother me...not to throw gender stereotypes into the mix, but I am a woman, and an emotionally sensitive one at that, so that may have something to do with it. I am a big fan of Miss Saigon, which was inspired by Madame Butterfly. That one is quite lachrimose as well!!! (although the male lead is MUCH more sympathetic than Mr. Pinkerton is). I can go for a good tear-jerker time and again. lol

To the question at hand: I feel that it's too early for me to say that there is an opera I DON'T like yet. Because I am aware that some may grow on me. So far, I've listened to these: Suor Angelica, Fidelio, La Traviata, Marriage of Figaro, Rusalka, La Boheme, Madame Butterfly, Tosca, Turandot, and Tristan und Isolde.

Of those, Tristan und Isolde hasn't really worked for me, as I mentioned in a previous post. Though there are a few gorgeous segments in the second and third acts. Rusalka is a portrait in contrasts for me. There several pieces that I just love.....and yet there are parts that are almost nails on a chalkboard for me (no offense intended). Once again, I won't say I DON'T like these operas, as this newbie needs more time to absorb them.

And this is strictly from a libretto/listen standpoint. I've yet to see any of these as a performance, although that will be changing quite soon.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I haven't seen Rusalka yet. Suor Angelica, Tosca, Madama Butterfly, and Turandot are not among my favorites. The others you've quoted are.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

It's easier for me to say which operas I do like. I like the more intense ones like Berlioz' _Faust_ (really an opera-oratorio, but that's ok, other people have mentioned it), Berg's _Wozzeck_ and I've also been getting into Schoenberg's _Moses und Aron _(but it's a bit of a let down how it was unfinished, we only have two of the three projected acts). I also like many of the arias from operas like the mad scene of Lady Macbeth by Verdi. I want to get into the Debussy, for a more lyrical type of opera.

The operas that I have not really developed an interest in is most things before Beethoven (eg. Mozart, Haydn, Handel), but I did hear a comic opera by Charpentier a few months back on radio which I enjoyed immensely. But I don't think that I would necessarily want to own it...


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

There are an awful lot of operas that I at least don't care for... one of the operas I actually dislike is L'elisir d'amore. It seemed like every single number ending up with one high note held out as long as possible, while all the music in that number sounded practically identical to every other one. And for someone like me who cares infinitely more about the music than the drama, that killed it for me.

One of the operas that _does_ irk me because of the story is Gotterdammerung. I mean, ideologically I can see where Wagner is coming from, but the whole idea of the redemption business at the end of the opera just doesn't make any sense to me except for purely ideologically. It also makes no sense as a continuation of the Ring cycle as a whole. One heck of a finale though...

There was another Italian opera that's fairly popular that I used to have until I sold it. I can't remember its name anymore, but it was one of those melodramatic things that had very little development of anything until someone killed someone else for no immediately apparent reason.

I hate to say that I don't particularly care for Peter Grimes either. It just isn't up to the same level as the same composer's Curlew River. About thirty minutes into it I still just don't care about any of the characters.

I remember borrowing a DVD of Tosca, when I started getting interested in opera. I didn't get any of it. And yes, it had subtitles. I think it had Placido Domingo or some big-name like that in it, too. The only thing I remember about it is that someone got killed. And one of the scenes involved a room.

Maybe I should take George Enescu's advice to Yehudi Menuhin and see some Mozart operas... I don't know, though, as it seems I'm perfectly satisfied with 20th century and Baroque opera. Meh. Maybe it's one of those epiphany things.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Maybe I should take George Enescu's advice to Yehudi Menuhin and see some Mozart operas... 

You haven't listened to Mozart's operas??!! I'm sorry... but to me that's like not having listened to Beethoven's symphonies and piano sonatas, or Bach's choral music. You are missing out on what in central to the composers in question... and the art form at hand.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

World Violist said:


> There are an awful lot of operas that I at least don't care for... one of the operas I actually dislike is L'elisir d'amore. It seemed like every single number ending up with one high note held out as long as possible, while all the music in that number sounded practically identical to every other one. And for someone like me who cares infinitely more about the music than the drama, that killed it for me.
> 
> One of the operas that _does_ irk me because of the story is Gotterdammerung. I mean, ideologically I can see where Wagner is coming from, but the whole idea of the redemption business at the end of the opera just doesn't make any sense to me except for purely ideologically. It also makes no sense as a continuation of the Ring cycle as a whole. One heck of a finale though...
> 
> ...


Interesting... We overlap in some things and don't in some others. L'Elisir d'Amore is probably the Donizetti I care the least for. _Una furtiva lagrima_ is very beautiful but the rest doesn't do much for me. Tosca is not my favorite either, and I have that Placido Domingo version and find it one of the weakest among his performances. Götterdämmerung I love, as well as Peter Grimes, and I cared immensely for those characters. Curlew River I haven't seen yet, now you got me really curious because if it is much better than Peter Grimes and I liked Peter Grimes so much, I'll probably really love Curlew River. Mozart's operas are phenomenal.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Andre said:


> It's easier for me to say which operas I do like. I like the more intense ones like Berlioz' _Faust_ (really an opera-oratorio, but that's ok, other people have mentioned it)


I love Berlioz's _La Damnation de Faust._ I think it is a spectacular masterpiece. But I haven't ever seen it staged. People say that staged it is even better than in concert form - and I believe them because I think it has enormous theatrical possibilities.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Tosca is not my favorite either, and I have that Placido Domingo version and find it one of the weakest among his performances.


I'm aware of at least 3 Domingo Toscas.
























Domingo is utterly amazing in the Met one, but unfortunately it means putting up with Behrens as Tosca.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I am not a big opera fan, but have listened to about 50 or so in my life.

Verdi and Mozart are simply not for me - not one single opera by them that I really liked.

Puccini and Wagner would be my favourites in the genre.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

World Violist said:


> ... There was another Italian opera that's fairly popular that I used to have until I sold it. I can't remember its name anymore, but it was one of those melodramatic things that had very little development of anything until someone killed someone else for no immediately apparent reason ....


:lol:

Sounds like a lot of Italian opera. Why would a mother, even in a state of utter confusion, mistake her own baby for another & throw her baby on to a fire? 

Most opera plots are daft but that doesn't stop me from loving even the silliest.



> Common Types Of Arias
> 
> 1. The I Am X And Live Like This...
> 2. The Let Me Tell What Happened In The Past, Don't Sleep You *******, I'm Telling Spoilers!
> ...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Maybe I should take George Enescu's advice to Yehudi Menuhin and see some Mozart operas...
> 
> You haven't listened to Mozart's operas??!! I'm sorry... but to me that's like not having listened to Beethoven's symphonies and piano sonatas, or Bach's choral music. You are missing out on what in central to the composers in question... and the art form at hand.


Guess what - I really can't stand much of old J.S. (full stop) & Mozart's operas don't interest me either. Who cares? I can still enjoy his other works, eg. earlier in the year went to see his _Great Mass in C Minor_ & am this very night going to see the _Clarinet Quintet_. This idea of the sanctity of the "canon" and "1000 things you must see (or love?) before you die" is just plain balderdash. I just listen to things that interest me, from a wide variety of sources, and it doesn't have to be seminal (but often it is). I just go with the flow of things, what grabs me. I don't care if Ligeti's _Requiem_ isn't considered as great a materpiece (or whatever) as Mozart's one. I'm not interested in ticking boxes, but enjoying things in the here & now.

Ok rant over...


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> Verdi evolved from Bel Canto with clear divisions between arias and recitative to scenes of four arias to continuous music such as in Otello and Parsifal which are actually quite sophisticated, not to forget his Requiem. Some of Verdi's operas are pretty spectacular and very precise in orchestration. I think Verdi was *more* creative than Puccini, not less, and had almost three times Puccini's output. This doesn't stop me from disliking some of his operas, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that he was just an uncreative entertainer.


Well, we're all still listening to the music of those guys, so they must have done something right. Personally I don't think along the lines of, "this is art and this is 'only' entertainment." I wouldn't know (or care) where to draw the line between the two anyway. I guess it's supposed to be (and I'm exaggerating a bit to make my point) that when it's either depressing or incomprehensible it's art and when it's something that can also be enjoyed by the avarage guy in the street and puts a smile on your face it's just entertainment. But all good music - from Johann Strauss to Alban Berg and everything inbetween and beyond is entertaining on some level. If it's not the composer is failing to communicate to the listener.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Indeed. There is nothing wrong with being entertained.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

World Violist said:


> One of the operas that _does_ irk me because of the story is Gotterdammerung. I mean, ideologically I can see where Wagner is coming from, but the whole idea of the redemption business at the end of the opera just doesn't make any sense to me except for purely ideologically. It also makes no sense as a continuation of the Ring cycle as a whole. One heck of a finale though...


I've been thinking about these comments while eating my lunch, and found myself coming up with two possible responses ...

1. Do myths generally make sense (I mean in a rational way)? I think often they don't. The gods and heroes of myth tend to behave very oddly, in fact. We're dealing with archetypes, and archetypal situations, so they make their impact mainly at a level below the conscious. In the case of the end of _Gotterdammerung_, the really important below-the-conscious information is coming through the music. We may not understand _how_ Brunnhilde's final act is redeeming the world, but the music is making us believe, in no uncertain terms, that it _is_.

2. If we want to try to rationalise the plot, we might envisage Brunnhilde's immolation as an unmaking of the act that began the catastrophe in the first place - Alberich's theft of the Rheingold. In order to steal the gold, Alberich has to renounce love: this is the terrible deed that dooms the world and whose consequences resonate throughout the whole _Ring_ cycle. All Wotan's subsequent machinations come to nought, because the only way to redeem the world is by unmaking the act that started it - that is, not to renounce love, but to accept it; not to pit oneself against the world, but to sacrifice oneself for it; not to steal the Rheingold, but to give it back.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I don't really want to talk about operas I don't like, mainly because this time next year I might find myself enjoying them. There was a time when Wagner was the only opera I could enjoy, but those days are long gone. So although at present I find most of the Italian _bel canto_ stuff hard to take (with Bellini as a notable exception), I could easily believe that at some point in the future I'd find myself devoted to Rossini and Donizetti.

The things about opera that I don't like are things that upset the unity of the conception - like badly thought-out productions that jar against what we're hearing. For instance, the production of _Tosca_ I saw last year by Opera North took place in a modern setting that could only be described as squalid. _Tosca_ didn't leap from the battlements at the end, but instead was shot in the forehead at close quarters, like a dog, and her body slumped down the dirty wall. Now this is all very well, but did this producer ever listen to the _music?_. Here's this soaring, super-romantic, melodramatic even, music going on; yet what we were _seeing_ was this grisly in-your-face realism that was the very antithesis of the story told by the music.

It seems like the equivalent of defacing Goya etchings, or something. I can acknowledge that the defacement of a Goya etching might be an artistic act worth contemplating in its own right, but the result _isn't Goya._ It's something else. So, in this production of _Tosca_ (which I actually attended twice in order to see if repeated exposure to it might help), I feel that I'm being asked to collude in the fallacy that we're watching Tosca. We're not. We're watching _To£#sc&%a_.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> It seems like the equivalent of defacing Goya etchings, or something. I can acknowledge that the defacement of a Goya etching might be an artistic act worth contemplating in its own right, but the result _isn't Goya._ It's something else. So, in this production of _Tosca_ (which I actually attended twice in order to see if repeated exposure to it might help), I feel that I'm being asked to collude in the fallacy that we're watching Tosca. We're not. We're watching _To£#sc&%a_.


 - and all the rest of your post

Excellent points. I think the person who should have been shot in the head like a dog was the staging director.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Most opera plots are daft but that doesn't stop me from loving even the silliest.


This list of arias that you posted is hilarious!!! And oh so accurate!!!:lol:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm reluctant to name one I don't like. Most times when I listen/watch a new one, I don't really like it. So that would be on this list.

But if it's a popular one the fault lies with me. So I play it over & over & usually after a few days I absolutely adore it, has me in tears etc etc & can't understand why I didn't like it.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> I'm reluctant to name one I don't like. Most times when I listen/watch a new one, I don't really like it. So that would be on this list.
> 
> But if it's a popular one the fault lies with me. So I play it over & over & usually after a few days I absolutely adore it, has me in tears etc etc & can't understand why I didn't like it.


That's weird, sospiro.:lol: It's like you beat yourself into liking it!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> That's weird, sospiro.:lol: It's like you beat yourself into liking it!


No just a bit slow


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

It's easier for me to say which operas I do like.

I must agree with Andre here. Certainly there are some operas that interest me more than others (Tristan and Isolde, Le Nozze di Figaro, Don Giovanni, The Magic Flute, Mme. Butterfly, La Boheme, Carmen, Parsifal, Les Indes Galantes, The Barber of Seville, Der Rosenkavalier, Salome, etc...)

Guess what - I really can't stand much of old J.S. (full stop) & Mozart's operas don't interest me either. Who cares? 

Who cares? Probably not many more than care whether another can't stand Schoenberg, Cage or Stockhausen. Ultimately, its your choice... and your loss.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

It seems like the equivalent of defacing Goya etchings, or something. I can acknowledge that the defacement of a Goya etching might be an artistic act worth contemplating in its own right, but the result isn't Goya. It's something else. So, in this production of Tosca (which I actually attended twice in order to see if repeated exposure to it might help), I feel that I'm being asked to collude in the fallacy that we're watching Tosca. We're not. We're watching To£#sc&%a.

Another fan of the Chapman Brothers, I take it? I agree with regard to ridiculous production of operas. Unfortunately, there are those producers and designers who imagine that they are the more important creator than the original composer and librettist.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Well, we're all still listening to the music of those guys, so they must have done something right. Personally I don't think along the lines of, "this is art and this is 'only' entertainment." I wouldn't know (or care) where to draw the line between the two anyway. I guess it's supposed to be (and I'm exaggerating a bit to make my point) that when it's either depressing or incomprehensible it's art and when it's something that can also be enjoyed by the avarage guy in the street and puts a smile on your face it's just entertainment. But all good music - from Johann Strauss to Alban Berg and everything inbetween and beyond is entertaining on some level. If it's not the composer is failing to communicate to the listener.

Exactly.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

mamascarlatti is from New Zeland?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Edited out - a discussion that shouldn't have happened.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

The opera i dislike? Boh


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

Non conosco un opera brutta


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Edited out - a discussion that shouldn't have happened.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

I like Rigoletto


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Edited out - a discussion that shouldn't have happened.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

I like all the operas


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Ok, edited out as well in the interests of peace and harmony


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

You're right I'm calm


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

I'm from bologna


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Edited out - a discussion that shouldn't have happened.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

Ok i'm sorry

Laughing


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

I made what you said me.
It's your turn.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

I'm sorry for my behaviour.
I don't want to lost the relationship with a good guys of the forum.
Sorry, you're right.
I apologize.
People don't love the baroque operas, because they seem boring and so long.
It will be.
This happens because we can't hearing the marvelous and innatural voices of the fight between soprano and castrato. A beautiful dream.

This is a very dammage.

I, for my studies and teaching, love very much all the operas but i disagree with many opears of XX century.
Not at all, I love Bela Bartok and his Barbablù.
Bartok was a genius.
I dislike strutturalist, dodecafonic, opears of Maderna, Berio, Dalla Piccola and Henze.

Ciao


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

marmaluot_45 said:


> People don't love the baroque operas, because they seem boring and so long.
> It will be.
> This happens because we can't hearing the marvelous and innatural voices of the fight between soprano and castrato. A beautiful dream.


I think you are right that we can't fully appreciate the glory of baroque opera because these arias were written for castrati which are so often described as otherwordly.

However I love baroque opera anyway, whether with countertenors, mezzos/contraltos, or natural sopranos like Michael Maniaci.

My only gripe is with the way they are sometimes staged, as though they can't stand on their own merits.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think you are right that we can't fully appreciate the glory of baroque opera because these arias were written for castrati which are so often described as otherwordly.
> 
> However I love baroque opera anyway, whether with countertenors, mezzos/contraltos, or natural sopranos like Michael Maniaci.
> 
> My only gripe is with the way they are sometimes staged, as though they can't stand on their own merits.


Three that I saw recently (and you did too, I think) were staged in very creative ways and were wonderful - Glyndebourne's _Giulio Cesare_ and Chatêlet's _Les Paladins_ and _Les Indes Galantes._ Yes, they stand on their own due to the beautiful music, but I don't mind modern staging when it is thoughtful and doesn't include stupid ideas like I recently described regarding _Der Freischütz._


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Three that I saw recently (and you did too, I think) were staged in very creative ways and were wonderfu - Glyndebourne's _Giulio Cesare_ and Chatêlet's _Les Paladins_ and _Les Indes Galantesl._ Yes, they stand on their own due to the beautiful music, but I don't mind modern staging when it is thoughtful and doesn't include stupid ideas like I recently described regarding _Der Freischütz._


Yes those three are really excellent. I LOVE modern staging when it serves the story and music more than the director's ego.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> Glyndebourne's _Giulio Cesare_ and Chatêlet's ... _Les Indes Galantesl._


Oh goodness, yes - I don't know _Les Paladins_, but those other two are among the most ravishingly life-enhancing DVD experiences available - and they demonstrate conclusively that the real issue is not between traditional and non-traditional productions, but between sympathetic and unsympathetic productions. That is, the key is whether the producer has lost sight of the essential spirit that needs to be conveyed.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> Oh goodness, yes - I don't know _Les Paladins_, but those other two are among the most ravishingly life-enhancing DVD experiences available - and they demonstrate conclusively that the real issue is not between traditional and non-traditional productions, but between sympathetic and unsympathetic productions. That is, the key is whether the producer has lost sight of the essential spirit that needs to be conveyed.


Absolutely. I don't think Berlioz would have approved of a C3PO look-alike robot in _Benvenuto Cellini_, or Weber of a 6-feet tall ************ bunny in _Der Freischütz_ but Handel, if he knew what is good in life (I'm not familiar with his biography), would have approved of Danielle di Niese's - ahem, cough cough, how should I put it? - wonderful _assets_...


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

I had got three books over which I learned the bel canto and castrato problems.

1)Histoire des castrats di Patrick Barbier
2)I castrati nel teatro d'opera di Angus Heriot
3)Cry to heaven di Anne Rice
4)Viaggio musicale in Italia di Charles Burney


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

mamascarlatti said:


> Ok, edited out as well in the interests of peace and harmony


Damn! Seemed like I missed out on all the fun! :lol:


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Damn! Seemed like I missed out on all the fun!


Must've been very quiet though, Gaston. I slept all the way through it.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> Must've been very quiet though, Gaston. I slept all the way through it.


Seems like I missed all the fun as well.

Was watching Juan Diego Flórez as a very sleazy Duke of Mantua enthusiastically groping naked breasts.

(More when I do a review)


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Ok move along folks, nothing to see.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> Must've been very quiet though, Gaston. I slept all the way through it.


I must have been watching Frederica Von Stade at the time.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> I must have been watching Frederica Von Stade at the time.


An infinitely more life-affirming occupation. That woman's smile just makes me melt, let alone her voice.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> I must have been watching Frederica Von Stade at the time.


I must have been trying to calm things down at the time.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

> I haven't seen Rusalka yet. Suor Angelica, Tosca, Madama Butterfly, and Turandot are not among my favorites. The others you've quoted are.


Tosca I'm of two minds on. The music hasn't really grabbed me yet, outside of the main highlights. However, the story grabbed me for some reason. I think it's definitely one where I need to "see" the drama as opposed to just listening. It's in my Netflix queue, so we'll see from there.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sonata said:


> Tosca I'm of two minds on. The music hasn't really grabbed me yet, outside of the main highlights. However, the story grabbed me for some reason. I think it's definitely one where I need to "see" the drama as opposed to just listening. It's in my Netflix queue, so we'll see from there.


In the Opera on DVD thread people were talking about a Tosca version that might be able to change even my mind; go there and check out the YouTube clips, it seems very enticing.

Sometimes these dislikes have to do with the version one listens to or watches and then the person archives it in the back of the mind and doesn't revisit it properly. Sometimes I watch an opera once and decide that I don't really like it and then avoid further exposure to it, which is of course a grave mistake.

When I figtht this tendency off, sometimes it happens that some of my previous dislikes then make it into my list of favorite operas (case in point, _Der Rosenkavalier_ which at some point I didn't like, and now after giving it some more tries, I love).


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Sometimes these dislikes have to do with the version one listens to or watches and then the person archives it in the back of the mind and doesn't revisit it properly. Sometimes I watch an opera once and decide that I don't really like it and then avoid further exposure to it, which is of course a grave mistake.


Hey, you're a mind-reader, when I read Sonata's post I thought "I wonder what version Netflix has" - I think this is an opera where the singer-actors REALLY matter. Tosca and Scarpia particularly can be played in so many ways but they have to be convincing.

My favourite is definitely Tosca nei luoghi e nelle ore ... with Malfitano, Domingo and Raimondi. Act 2 with Callas and Gobbi is also a revelation, but dammit it didn't seem to occur to them to film acts 1 and 3 .

I've got a version with Malfitano and Terfel where the Cavadarossi is so unattractive that I'd hurtle myself from the battlements just to avoid running away with him. (Terfel is terrifically sleazy though - he can manage to make taking off someone's glove a violation).

EDIT: I've just checked netflix and they have the one with Kabaivanska as dignified beautiful Tosca and Milnes as cold bureaucratic Scarpia. It's also a goodie.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

That's precisely the one in my queue Natalie! Glad to hear someone vouch for it before I watch!


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

I' m sorry but i must say what I think about some opinions in this thread.
I thought about it for a week, finally I'm decided to speak.
We are men , said the Poet:" Fatti non foste a viver come bruti/ ma per seguir vertute e conoscenza"
We weren't made to live like animals, but we were made in order to reach knowledge and virtue.
The fathers of american constitution were Franklin, Jefferson, Washington.
These great men knew the greek and latin languages and studied on the original books of the ancient romans.
Your constitution is traced over our roman laws and rights.
You are sons of the great greek and latin civilazation.
You are a strong and nice people but culturally you have only two century of hard study.
We have got 30 century of knowledge.
If you want do art and cultur, you must pass through our books and our studies, this must be clear.
What should you be without us?
You talked about our music, our composers after two century, when in America wasn't anything.
Our people loved music of Rossini ecc.. and wrote books about him, while Rossini was again alive.
WE knew very good our artists.

You'll become good in music but you have to study deeply and to accept what the whole critic and the tastes of audience said about at last.

It don't means we couldn't discuss more about an artist known and loved and performanced by all the world, but especially bringing new ideas and clear thoughts over this or that opera.

We must do that and enough.
Who painted the Sistina Chapel, was an artist, and about it we shouldn't having different points of view.
We should having a discuss about the ridicolous precaution by church to call another painter to cover the nakedness of painted bodies.

That is why I'm returning in your thread to clear my anger about that you knew yet.
Dear Almaviva
You have accept my different vision over a problem quoted in this forum.
You have bought a book and you learned something new.

You did good. 
I want to know on what books some members of this forum, read what then they wrote.

Thak you very much.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

marmaluot_45 said:


> I' m sorry but i must say what I think about some opinions in this thread.
> I thought about it for a week, finally I'm decided to speak.
> We are men , said the Poet:" Fatti non foste a viver come bruti/ ma per seguir vertute e conoscenza"
> We weren't made to live like animals, but we were made in order to reach knowledge and virtue.
> ...


Why are you assuming people here are Americans? There are people here from all over the world, many of them Europeans. So you assume that because someone is American, that individual person can not be knowledgeable about the history of Western civilization? You know, here in America we have world class scholars and some of the world's finest universities, such as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Stanford, Duke, etc. Because we are a younger country doesn't mean that we are culturally inferior. The stereotype of the dumb American is just that, a stereotype, fueled by the fact that we have a vast middle class with massive access to the Internet, so that more people with less cultural awareness get represented in various sites. It doesn't mean that our cultural elites are any less knowledgeable than their European counterparts.

You know, in the previous discussion I was the one who was kindly trying to calm things down.

But now you're starting to rub *me* the wrong way - I am after all a patriotic American, and your comments above are not very nice.

This forum is meant to be a place to exchange ideas in a respectful and fun way. We are not here to post doctoral dissertations in music. Posting here is a hobby, that's all. We have members who are beginners, others who are seasoned fans, and even others who are learned musicians. We welcome all levels of expertise or lack thereof.

You seem to know a lot about vocal music and could be an excellent contributor, if only you also had the ability to be less contemptuous of others' opinions. Get down from your high horse, buddy.

If you want to teach us some facts about vocal music, great, we are willing to learn (like I did). But if you want to put us down in the process, then we won't be interested.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

marmaluot_45 said:


> I' m sorry but i must say what I think about some opinions in this thread.
> I thought about it for a week, finally I'm decided to speak.
> We are men , said the Poet:" Fatti non foste a viver come bruti/ ma per seguir vertute e conoscenza"
> We weren't made to live like animals, but we were made in order to reach knowledge and virtue.
> ...


I think I'm missing something, every time I see posts by this dude they seem totally out of context. Like he would choose random threads to write something to someone totally out of the blue with no connection with the thread's subject.


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## Boccherini (Mar 29, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Why are you assuming people here are Americans? There are people here from all over the world, many of them Europeans. So you assume that because someone is American, that individual person can not be knowledgeable about the history of Western civilization? You know, here in America we have world class scholars and some of the world's finest universities, such as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Stanford, Duke, etc. Because we are a younger country doesn't mean that we are culturally inferior. The stereotype of the dumb American is just that, a stereotype, fueled by the fact that we have a vast middle class with massive access to the Internet, so that more people with less cultural awareness get represented in various sites. It doesn't mean that our cultural elites are any less knowledgeable than their European counterparts.
> 
> You know, in the previous discussion I was the one who was kindly trying to calm things down.
> 
> ...


Just speculating and no need to be offended here, but maybe he reached the age when, statistically, people adopt - involuntarily, of course - the distressing hobby called "senility".

EDIT: Wow, it's possibly the first post of mine in this section of TC.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> I think I'm missing something, every time I see posts by this dude they seem totally out of context. Like he would choose random threads to write something to someone totally out of the blue with no connection with the thread's subject.


That's because we have deleted (and encouraged him to do the same, which he did) the posts that contained the initial and unpleasant discussion. But now he is at it again.

The method he used for the deletion was to edit out the content and substitute for it with harmless phrases; that's why it all makes little sense for people reading the thread only now. And then, it looks like he's spilling the issue onto other threads which increases even more the confusion.

Those who were here at the time of the original exchange may understand it better.

So indeed you *are* missing something, but believe me, you don't want to know, unless you are interested in learning a number of choice insults uttered in the Italian language.LOL


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Boccherini said:


> Just speculating and no need to be offended here, but maybe he reached the age when, statistically, people adopt - involuntarily, of course - the distressing hobby called "senility".
> 
> EDIT: Wow, it's possibly the first post of mine in this section of TC.


Are you refering to me, or to the poster marmaluot?


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## Boccherini (Mar 29, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Are you refering to me, or to the poster marmaluot?


Senility could have reached a lower degree if you're one of them, hence I meant the latter.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Boccherini said:


> Senility could have reached a lower degree if you're one of them, hence I meant the latter.


I thought so, but hey, you quoted *my* post and said something to the effect of "don't be offended" so it wasn't entirely clear, I wanted clarification.:lol:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Unless you're a Native American you're quite likely to be an immigrant from Europe with all the history and background this brings to your life and culture.

This has absolutely nothing at all to do with the interesting thread 'operas you DON'T like' but my two cents anyway.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

Dear Aramis

If you read, you read less, especially who wrote before you.
I helped this guys in a most important question of belcanto era and the guys said about me I Know a lot about music and thanked me.
You're the unique who don't know.
I accept the patriotism of Almaviva and his manner to talk soft, but Almaviva showed being a clever man.
I move me by random, random were a tecnique used to search metano and water and petrol under the water.
I answer to someone who had fun to destroy the truth or showed knowing less or writing random about this matter.
Almaviva talks of hobbies, beginners, good, these people asks what they would know and when they made a mistake, they thank who gave them the possibility to learn.
I want add again something dear Almaviva: i show a courage writing in other languages, this, for you all, is not very endeavoured.
Other thing, once you said in America weren't licei scintifici and licei classici.

I learn in the classic and I teach in scientific.
In italy I knew many american students who try to learn in our university.
If you choose science, there is no problem but when they choose humanistic matters, latin , greekk, roman law are necessary knowing more and more.

Twenty years ago I knew a young woman amarican professor who came in Bologna learning mottetti and others of Padre Martini.
I led her for a tourist walk in Bologna.
We visited churchs, the ancient tombs of the fathers of the ancient law, among them wereIrnerio, the first professor of the oldest university in the world.
Irnerio was consulted by Federico Barbarossa in Piacenza for the rights of german emperor against the canonic rights of the cattolic church.
Then, we went in museums, in the university, the old and the young, and in the fourth largest church in the world, this church isn't the seat of bishop but belongs to Bologna People.
The young american professor was amazed by our music libraries, the most important in the world.
She unterstood from where the music cultur comes.

I can go to Pesaro and see the original score of Pietra del Paragone, follow the sudies of Rossini Foundation.
It's different, Italy is the art country, all world knows that.
Then friends ok?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

marmaluot_45 said:


> You make a terrible mistake showing to me you learned and read very less.
> 
> Opera is an invention and a cultural heritage of italian country.
> I feel angry when you talk nonsense about my traditions and especially about our greatest composers.
> ...


My words may have been lost in translation. I do not talk nonsense about the traditions of Italy. Exactly the opposite in fact.

I have friends who are Italian Americans and they are immensely proud of their European heritage.

http://www.niaf.org/research/contribution.asp


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Unless you're a Native American you're quite likely to be an immigrant from Europe with all the history and background this brings to your life and culture.
> 
> This has absolutely nothing at all to do with the interesting thread 'operas you DON'T like' but my two cents anyway.


I quoted yopu to show in front of the world, your thirst of mighty.

One thing is living in Europe, other thing is living in America as native or immigrant.
It's not the same.

Enrico Fermi helped you for the nuclear fissione.

I stop here.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> people who understimate our great italian glory.


hahaha

You talk like dazzled chauvinist. You bring little facts and many pompous claims.

There is only one cradle of civilization: ancient Greece; roman culture was in great part duplicate of it and all that was great in it was taken from Greeks; even Horace studied their output.

Homer was the father of poetry, Vergilius was only successor like all others.

So is with the rest of Italian acheivements. Many great artists who shaped western culture but do not stand higher than Germans or French.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

marmaluot_45 said:


> Almaviva does good and he should kick and hit those people who show to unterstand nothing.


This is a friendly forum, marmaluot_45. We don't kick and hit people. We share our opinions - 'educated' or not, and respect those that disagree with us.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

Boccherini said:


> Senility could have reached a lower degree if you're one of them, hence I meant the latter.


Hence I 'll think that senility is a fountain of wisdom.
You see there are people who know the different between Knowledge and wisdom.
This is the big thing we learned by the ancient latins romans.
You know latin language?
Then you should spend your whole life to unterstand that.
Hence you're on cultural music thread show being few wise.

Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

marmaluot_45 said:


> Almaviva does good and he should kick and hit those people who show to unterstand nothing. ...


I'm writing here to reinforce jhar26's comment. We don't kick and hit people here, no matter what opinion we might have of their understanding. Indeed, it contravenes the forum rules.


> don't write if you don't know enough.


On the contrary. In this forum, anyone is invited to write and express opinion on the music they listen to, regardless of their state of knowledge. 


> In this thread, by random, i unterstand there are people who don't know music and the basic of musical history.


Indeed there are. A knowledge of music history is not a requirement for people to post here.

Most of the people who post here are friendly, and want to share their views in a friendly and tolerant manner, so that when we disagree, we can express that disagreement politely and with respect (and often we even joke about it). Please don't disrupt that state of affairs.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

Aramis said:


> hahaha
> 
> You talk like dazzled chauvinist. You bring little facts and many pompous claims.
> 
> ...


I agree Aramis, it's true "Grecia capta ferum victorem cepit" Romans copied and sudied the knowledge and wisdom of greek people.
But what Greek didn't knew do, Romans did it and the roman beautifuls are under the regards of all.
People went in Italy to see the beautiful things which our italian people get.

In Greek there are few heritages of the big greek thought, but in Italy there are all.

I must you correct,here you show to unterstand no the history.
Do you know what is Magna Grecia?
The first civilazation was born in Egypt and in Mesopotamia was born the writing as in Egypt.
The greek copied Egyptians and invented the theather.
The romans copied the greek and conquered the known world.
They builded many and many things works of wonder.
They invented the round arch in the buildings and perfect bridges.
They improved the writing, wrote masterworks as you remembered.
Romans invented the law, copied by all people of west in the world.
Rome accepted the Christ and his words, Costantino emperor made a religion of the known world.
It's right the germans and frenches built churches and palaces, but when the Colosseo was built, in Paris were only huts.
In the 800 after Christ a great man was crown in Rome, this man was Carlo Magno and his adviser was the famous monk Alcuino of York who founded the Palatina Schola copied by the roman education.
When you don't know things, it's better no talking.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

What you just wrote is all at level of elementary school. It's funny when you use big words like wisdom and knowledge and then come out with such obvious facts like you would reveal some kind of forgotten truth.

All those wonders you write about do not change the fact that in European culture (because we are talking about European art and culture, right?) was born in Greece and everything that came after it was second and builded upon it. You can tell names of ancient Greeks that inspired Roman writers and philosophers but you can't name poets that influenced Homer, can you?

That is why Homer and Greeks are the fathers and everything else is diffrent kind: Vergilius is not more of a father of culture than Schiller. The only cradle is Greece and Rome/Italy is just *one of * nations that collectively contributed to European culture.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

[


marmaluot_45 said:


> I quoted yopu to show in front of the world, your thirst of mighty.
> 
> One thing is living in Europe, other thing is living in America as native or immigrant.
> It's not the same.
> ...


Don't talk about what you know nothing about. I will not tolerate someone calling my gentle English friend "thirst of mighty". She is kind, tolerant and humble. How dare you!

The only person who has thirst of mighty on this forum is you. You boast about writing in other languages but so do Aramis and jhar26 and lo potrei anch'io ma tutti qua parlano inglese. And frankly you are just as obscure in your reasoning in Italian.

You have missed the point of this forum. It is NOT a place for people with inflated ideas of their own intelligence and education to show off with irrelevant rambling and long quotes from other people. Nor is it a place for bombastic nationalism.

It IS a place for enthusiastic music lovers, amateurs or not, to talk in a friendly and mutually respectful way about their shared passion.

Do you think you can do that?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I have an excellent idea, folks:

All of us who love the fact that our forum is made of mature, kind, civilized, tolerant people who don't make wild nationalistic claims and don't insult others who have different viewpoints or are at different levels of musical expertise or live in countries other than Italy, should place user Marmaluot on the ignore list.

Then, peace will be restored and we'll all be able to continue to enjoy the excellent friendly environment we have here, before this guy tried to disrupt it.

I come here to discuss opera, and I'm really not interested in this type of adversarial attitude.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> I have an excellent idea, folks:
> 
> All of us who love the fact that our forum is made of mature, kind, civilized, tolerant people who don't make wild nationalistic claims and don't insult others who have different viewpoints or are at different levels of musical expertise or live in countries other than Italy, should place user Marmaluot on the ignore list.
> 
> ...


Well, I was considering it myself, it would work if we all did it. In the past I have tried that with another antsy member but people would keep insisting on replying to him and quoting his insults. Actually now I'm missing him, at least he was quite funny at times.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Well, I was considering it myself, it would work if we all did it. In the past I have tried that with another antsy member but people would keep insisting on replying to him and quoting his insults. Actually now I'm missing him, at least he was quite funny at times.


All right, I'll just refrain from replying to him, then.
The problem is, he keeps talking about me in a way that people who don't know the whole story may get the idea that I agree with him in some way.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> All right, I'll just refrain from replying to him, then.
> The problem is, he keeps talking about me in a way that people who don't know the whole story may get the idea that I agree with him in some way.


No I don't mean that, I just mean we all have to agree. In fact I'll do it now.

EDIT: Done


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I've reported one post as offensive, and drawn the admins' attention to this thread. I think the idea _not to respond at all_ is the best solution, together with reporting any posts that are actually personally offensive (using the button with the red triangle and exclamation mark in the top right corner).


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Elgarian said:


> I've reported one post as offensive, and drawn the admins' attention to this thread. I think the idea _not to respond at all_ is the best solution, together with reporting any posts that are actually personally offensive (using the button with the red triangle and exclamation mark in the top right corner).


Well that's a good idea too - except last time I followed the "Don't Reply" rule (in the One That Got Deleted) he just kept posting and posting, one after the other, and getting more and more angry and insulting. If you read his posts it has a negative soul-destroying effect. That's what I hate, he's spoiling the place where I feel happiest and surrounded by kindred spirits. At least with the ignore function you don't have to be exposed to the drivel in the first place.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Gaston's on the case, so now we can all get back to the polite and gentle occupation of RUBBISHING OPERAS WE HATE!!! :devil:

I've been trying to think of any that I do hate, actually, just for the fun of having a go at them, but I can't. I think the trouble is that as a part-time and relatively narrow-range opera fan, I pick and choose my operas very carefully, and don't usually embark on one (either live, or by buying DVDs and CDs) where the prospects don't look at least reasonably promising.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Elgarian said:


> Gaston's on the case, so now we can all get back to the polite and gentle occupation of RUBBISHING OPERAS WE HATE!!! :devil:


That really is excellent news! (Gaston, not the rubbishing, although that could be fun too).



Elgarian said:


> I've been trying to think of any that I do hate, actually, just for the fun of having a go at them, but I can't. I think the trouble is that as a part-time and relatively narrow-range opera fan, I pick and choose my operas very carefully, and don't usually embark on one (either live, or by buying DVDs and CDs) where the prospects don't look at least reasonably promising.


I don't, I take a scattergun approach and I still enjoy most of what I hear - not surprising really, as Gaston has pointed out. I have to confess to have not explored later 20th Century works very much - my ears are pretty much stuck in tonality.


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

I've probably heard 500-600 different operas in many years of going to operas, collecting recordings and listening to the radio. And I suspect that I've hated very few of them. Menotti's The Counsel comes to mind.

I do have blind spots for certain works (Tosca) or genres (park and bark, although my wive loves them) but the largest disappoinment--for me--are the last two acts of Le Nozze di Figaro. How can a work that starts so gloriously fizzle so badly?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Rangstrom said:


> I do have blind spots for certain works (Tosca) or genres (park and bark, although my wive loves them) but the largest disappoinment--for me--are the last two acts of Le Nozze di Figaro. How can a work that starts so gloriously fizzle so badly?


What?

_Dove sono i bei momenti _

_Deh, vieni, non tardar _

_Contessa, perdono - _

and even

_L'ho perduta, me meschina _ which has to be the most beautiful music written for a trivial emotion ever! Every time I hear it I cry over a lost pin.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

Aramis said:


> What you just wrote is all at level of elementary school. It's funny when you use big words like wisdom and knowledge and then come out with such obvious facts like you would reveal some kind of forgotten truth.
> 
> All those wonders you write about do not change the fact that in European culture (because we are talking about European art and culture, right?) was born in Greece and everything that came after it was second and builded upon it. You can tell names of ancient Greeks that inspired Roman writers and philosophers but you can't name poets that influenced Homer, can you?
> 
> That is why Homer and Greeks are the fathers and everything else is diffrent kind: Vergilius is not more of a father of culture than Schiller. The only cradle is Greece and Rome/Italy is just *one of * nations that collectively contributed to European culture.


Good then let's raise me.

Homeric's question? nobody solved that, but nowdays it's clear Homerus are two poets, and the two texts,Iliade and Odissea, are been wroten in a space of fifty years each by other.
The micenea civilazation used three types of writings, one of them, linear B, is been deciphered.
The latter seems to be very similar to the greek dialect used by the first poet of Iliade.
Then noboby knows anything about the possible models of Homerus.
Homerus himself is a invented name.
About him, the greek historian writers invented all, Homerus exist nevermore.

The greeks improved the egyptian culture, the core of every old knowledge.
Writing, music, chemistry, bread,mathematics and others, are inventions of egiptian culture.
I remeber you that Pitagora first,Platone after and Aristote, went many times in Egypt learning the old books of egyptian wisdom.
The biggest library of the world was in Alessandria.
The romans, it's true, learned by the greek culture, but they improved it at sublime level.
If you went in Europe, you'll see only heritage of romans, not of greek.
Our language is not greek, false, neither etrusco, nobody knows.
The medical science use the greek word but are the latin words are used more than other.
In your languages there are continue= continuare lat continuum
Virtue=virtus lat. virtù
Your language is to shape over latin.

The case of Vergilius, naturally, you fall in the trap.
To compare Vergilius to Schiller is a biggest mistake, perhaps a kid could make.!!!!
Vergilius studied latin by the magistriis, he didn't know greek,
He knew Homerus, but he read the resumes by two epic greek poems.
Homerus was read in the middle age by latin or vulgar resumes, nobody knew the greek languages!!!!!
Attention what you said!!!!
Vergilius and your masterworks are been learned and imitated for 14 centuries!!!!
Vergilius was considered a magus, a prophet because he prophesyed the coming of new big man.
All men of middle age thought of Christ.
There is why Dante ,in his fantastic poem,Divina Commedia, used as leader and maestro : Vergilius.
Vergilius was known for his epic Eneide, the mytical history of the origine of Rome through the hero troian Enea.
Vergilius wrote teaching poems about the rustic life of farmer.
In whole the middle age was imitated as a perfect model of latin writing!!!!!

Schiller was a great german writer belonged to Sturm und Drang, but not so famous as Vergilius.
Schiller was today forgotten, but Vergilius is again learned in the school.

Dear writer you must read good books.

If you want, i can send you a list.

Bye


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

mamascarlatti said:


> I have to confess to have not explored later 20th Century works very much - my ears are pretty much stuck in tonality.


Did you ever try this one, Natalie? It's very accessible as contemporary opera goes. I must admit that I only bought it because Renée is in it. I didn't expect that much from the opera itself. But I loved it so much that I watched it two times on it's day of arrival. Worth checking out! 










I'm also expecting a DVD from one of Kaija Saariaho's operas in my mailbox any day now. She's a contemporary Finnish composer. Much of her music is atonal, but I find most of her orchestral music very beautiful, and I'm curious about her operatic work.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I didn' t mean that there is nothing 20C I like. Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Glass, Janacek are all among my favourites, and I quite like Adams too though I don't find him stellar. It's more the Schoenberg/Berg stuff I feel reluctant to explore at this point.



jhar26 said:


> Did you ever try this one, Natalie? It's very accessible as contemporary opera goes. I must admit that I only bought it because Renée is in it. I didn't expect that much from the opera itself. But I loved it so much that I watched it two times on it's day of arrival. Worth checking out!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember you writing about it at the beginning of the opera on DVD thread. I kind of automatically thought that it might be close to a musical, which is a genre I usually avoid. Reassure me this is not so, and I'll give it a whirl when I'm back in buying mode.



jhar26 said:


> I'm also expecting a DVD from one of Kaija Saariaho's operas in my mailbox any day now. She's a contemporary Finnish composer. Much of her music is atonal, but I find most of her orchestral music very beautiful, and I'm curious about her operatic work.


I saw you had bought that and was quite curious. Please, write a review when you've watched it.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

mamascarlatti said:


> I remember you writing about it at the beginning of the opera on DVD thread. I kind of automatically thought that it might be close to a musical, which is a genre I usually avoid. Tell me more.


No, no - it's not a musical. There are some jazzy elements in the orchestration, but it's never dominant and always appropriate. I don't have a problem with musicals myself, but this is a contempory 'legitimate' opera and as far removed from a musical as it gets. The production is very effective also. Renée's 'Blanche' is very different from Vivien Leigh's in the famous movie, but if anything I like hers even better (probably because I prefer opera to movies, I must admit :lol. The whole cast is great though, but you know me: I can't resist singling out my Renée for special praise.


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## Boccherini (Mar 29, 2010)

marmaluot_45 said:


> (Text of invidious, violative and profane post deleted)


I think I'm starting to smell a fusty rat here. He's either a complete senile or an infantile impostor. Either way, should be banned as soon as possible.
EDIT: May the new moderator make his first step efficiently.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> You talk, I talk, it need to see who, you and me, has the reason.
> You live in New Zeland, but I hope, seen you unterstand and write a good italian, that you has seen the our beautifuls in our country.
> This is the Mighty, I proud living in this country and hard learning her history.
> Mighty, Highness, it is an another word?
> ...


You don't understand nothing, you better read more and anknowledge that the only reason for which Italians are born is to produce noodles for Germans so they can dine and keep writing music and poetry. Haydn was German and he invented string quartets and sonatas and everyone knows that string quartets are higher than operas. Rossini and his silly operas are no match for Wagner's string quartets for orchestra, solists and choir.

You should know that German tribes kicked pathetic Roman asses, that's why their empire was crushed and no longer bothers Europe with it's wanna-be artists.

You better spend rest of your pathetic life learning German language and reading Weimar poets and Walther von der Vogelweide.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> You don't understand nothing, you better read more and anknowledge that the only reason for which Italians are born is to produce noodles for Germans so they can dine and keep writing music and poetry. Haydn was German and he invented string quartets and sonatas and everyone knows that string quartets are higher than operas. Rossini and his silly operas are no match for Wagner's string quartets for orchestra, solists and choir.
> 
> You should know that German tribes kicked pathetic Roman asses, that's why their empire was crushed and no longer bothers Europe with it's wanna-be artists.
> 
> You better spend rest of your pathetic life learning German language and reading Weimar poets and Walther von der Vogelweide.


Aramis, let him be. Report him to the adminstrators and ignore him, he'll eventually go away or will be banned.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> That really is excellent news! (Gaston, not the rubbishing, although that could be fun too).
> 
> I don't, I take a scattergun approach and I still enjoy most of what I hear - not surprising really, as Gaston has pointed out. I have to confess to have not explored later 20th Century works very much - my ears are pretty much stuck in tonality.


Atonality doesn't bother me, but the most recent opera I've ever heard is Peter Grimes. I mean, if we don't count West Side Story as an opera - would have to check but I suppose West Side Story is a later work.

Oh, and I have tickets for Nixon in China, so once I see that, it should take over as my most recent.

I have never heard Porgy and Bess, except for highlights (shame on me).

Post WWII opera remains practically unknown to me.

I have just received in the mail Le Grand Macabre, but haven't seen it yet.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

Aramis said:


> You don't understand nothing, you better read more and anknowledge that the only reason for which Italians are born is to produce noodles for Germans so they can dine and keep writing music and poetry. Haydn was German and he invented string quartets and sonatas and everyone knows that string quartets are higher than operas. Rossini and his silly operas are no match for Wagner's string quartets for orchestra, solists and choir.
> 
> You should know that German tribes kicked pathetic Roman asses, that's why their empire was crushed and no longer bothers Europe with it's wanna-be artists.
> 
> You better spend rest of your pathetic life learning German language and reading Weimar poets and Walther von der Vogelweide.


You see, I hope that you could see your mistakes.
Haydn was an austrian composer and he didn't invent the quartets ( of strings I hope!!) but he improved a tradition yet present in Italy in 17th century and the next with Tartini, Locatelli, Pugnani,Boccherini then passed in other countries with Stamitz, Gossec ecc.
Sonatas? for Piano o Forte piano or ....
Sonata, the first sonatas were hearded in San Marco in Venezia by Gabrieli in the 16th century.
Then the form of sonata for piano was improved by P.E.Bach and then Mozart, again before the two composers, Domenico Scarlatti, very loved by Listz.

If the quartets music is nicer or better than operas, i don't know, everybody can say his own opinion.
For me it's the same: high and sublime music.

Ich habe in meinem Jugend, in der HochSchule, Walter von der Vogelweide und anderen Minnesänger gern gelesen, aber ich vorziehe immer Goethe's Bücher.
I like the Wagner's music but i don't know his quartet(?).
I know gut die deutsche Sprache.
But in this forum it can writing only in english, but if you want to talk in german, you could me send a private post.

You must read Tacito to know the fights the Germans had lost.

Bye


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Boccherini said:


> I think I'm starting to smell a fusty rat here. He's either a complete senile or an infantile impostor. Either way, should be banned as soon as possible.
> EDIT: May the new moderator make his first step efficiently.


No need to tell me what I need to do, Boccherini. Trust me, I'm doing it.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Aramis said:


> You don't understand nothing, you better read more and anknowledge that the only reason for which Italians are born is to produce noodles for Germans so they can dine and keep writing music and poetry. Haydn was German and he invented string quartets and sonatas and everyone knows that string quartets are higher than operas. Rossini and his silly operas are no match for Wagner's string quartets for orchestra, solists and choir.
> 
> You should know that German tribes kicked pathetic Roman asses, that's why their empire was crushed and no longer bothers Europe with it's wanna-be artists.
> 
> You better spend rest of your pathetic life learning German language and reading Weimar poets and Walther von der Vogelweide.


I know he's provoking you, but there's no need to fight fire with fire. It'll only make matters worse.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> No need to tell me what I need to do, Boccherini. Trust me, I'm doing it.


Hey, you became a moderator? Cool!:tiphat:


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> Hey, you became a moderator? Cool!:tiphat:


I hope that it won't always be like this though.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Rangstrom said:


> the largest disappoinment--for me--are the last two acts of Le Nozze di Figaro. How can a work that starts so gloriously fizzle so badly?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> No, no - it's not a musical. There are some jazzy elements in the orchestration, but it's never dominant and always appropriate. I don't have a problem with musicals myself, but this is a contempory 'legitimate' opera and as far removed from a musical as it gets. The production is very effective also. Renée's 'Blanche' is very different from Vivien Leigh's in the famous movie, but if anything I like hers even better (probably because I prefer opera to movies, I must admit :lol. The whole cast is great though, but you know me: I can't resist singling out my Renée for special praise.


Hey it sounds very intriguing. I'll put it on my wish list, thanks.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*nothing easier*

- Traviata
- Madama Butterfly
- Parsifal
- The Master singers (Wagner)

That's all!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I wonder if we should vote - just like we did for the TC Top 100 Recommended Operas - for the, say, TC bottom 20 least recommended operas. It might be fun, especially if we get to operas that would belong to both lists.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> I wonder if we should vote - just like we did for the TC Top 100 Recommended Operas - for the, say, TC bottom 20 least recommended operas. It might be fun, especially if we get to operas that would belong to both lists.


It's far easier to vote on the best operas than on the worst since none of us have ever heard the worst operas. Even the one that would end up 'winning' would be a masterpiece of epic proportions compared to thousands of others we're not familiar with.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

BTW, where's Alan (Elgarian)? He hasn't posted in almost a week now and we need all the votes we can get from the limited number of people that participate in the top 100 operas thread.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> It's far easier to vote on the best operas than on the worst since none of us have ever heard the worst operas. Even the one that would end up 'winning' would be a masterpiece of epic proportions compared to thousands of others we're not familiar with.


Well, let's say, we could vote for the least recommended operas that have made it into the standard repertory. Like, the least deserving ones, those that are part of the repertory but maybe shouldn't be.

Hey, I had another idea! What if we vote for the least recommended DVDs? Like, the most outrageous Regietheater productions...

I saw today this Ariodante from ENO and was appalled with how bad it is (the production, the opera is of course sublime).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> BTW, where's Alan (Elgarian)? He hasn't posted in almost a week now and we need all the votes we can get from the limited number of people that participate in the top 100 operas thread.


I don't know, another trip to Bath?

Funny enough, the forum got several new members who know their opera, but these folks haven't been joining the vote.

I tried to post a thread to attract them but it looks like it didn't work.

But we're getting there... three fourths of the work done.


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I wonder if we should vote - just like we did for the TC Top 100 Recommended Operas - for the, say, TC bottom 20 least recommended operas. It might be fun, especially if we get to operas that would belong to both lists.





jhar26 said:


> It's far easier to vote on the best operas than on the worst since none of us have ever heard the worst operas. Even the one that would end up 'winning' would be a masterpiece of epic proportions compared to thousands of others we're not familiar with.


I think it's perfectly feasible, along these lines: only the top 100 are eligible, and one should only vote for (or is it against?) operas one truly hates, let's say in the sense that watching a full episode of Oprah would be a lesser punishment (apologies to our Oprah fans here).

Everyone has up to 5 votes, and of course it's not necessary (or even advisable) to use all of these.

Or something like this. I'm looking forward to it.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I think it would be an interesting list but I'd have to keep editing mine because an opera I start off hating often becomes a favourite over time.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Gualtier Malde said:


> I think it's perfectly feasible, along these lines: only the top 100 are eligible, and one should only vote for (or is it against?) operas one truly hates, let's say in the sense that watching a full episode of Oprah would be a lesser punishment (apologies to our Oprah fans here).
> 
> Everyone has up to 5 votes, and of course it's not necessary (or even advisable) to use all of these.
> 
> Or something like this. I'm looking forward to it.


Well, then, we'll have to wait until the top 100 are complete. 
We need to be careful to separate the opera itself from the production.
In your case you'll be more likely to hate something if it's a big time Eurotrash production.
So before we say we hate an opera, we should better make sure that we've seen/listened to at least some 3 versions... which is a problem in itself - why would one see three times something one hates?


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> In your case you'll be more likely to hate something if it's a big time Eurotrash production.
> So before we say we hate an opera, we should better make sure that we've seen/listened to at least some 3 versions... which is a problem in itself - why would one see three times something one hates?


You've figured me out pretty well there, but don't worry, I NEVER watch Eurotrash (let's say, almost never, I could conceivably get ambushed unexpectedly by a ET production). For example, there's no ET in my (modest, but growing) collection, this is one of the most important aspects for me when buying a new DVD (thank you, youtube, great research tool!).
I usually also don't rush to judgment, I'm slow absorbing music and I never even think about how I like an opera before I've watched it at least 5 times or so.

Of course there are valid objections against the whole idea, but it's not supposed to be dead serious, is it. I for one am quite curious to see which operas attract strong opposition (I'm actually not sure I myself would use any of my votes).

Come to think of it, I in fact don't like the word "hate" for this so very much any more, sounds so negative and aggressive. "Dislike" already sounds better, or we could say, the illustrious TC community issues warnings about some operas on its list.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Gualtier Malde said:


> Come to think of it, I in fact don't like the word "hate" for this so very much any more, sounds so negative and aggressive. "Dislike" already sounds better, or we could say, the illustrious TC community issues warnings about some operas on its list.


I think "least recommended" is the correct expression to use.

Oh, and another thing - sometimes and surprisingly, Eurotrash productions work. This is one that I found to be very enjoyable:










As you can see by the cover, there is a robot, C3PO-like, and it's not even the only robot (there are two more if I remember correctly). And there is a helicopter! But, strangely, it all works out, maybe helped by the outstanding legs of the soprano, which are shown at every opportunity.


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Oh, and another thing - sometimes and surprisingly, Eurotrash productions work. This is one that I found to be very enjoyable:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It will probably not surprise you greatly to learn that I don't need to see more than this cover to move this to my "don't buy" list.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Gualtier Malde said:


> It will probably not surprise you greatly to learn that I don't need to see more than this cover to move this to my "don't buy" list.


You'll miss some really yummy pair of legs...


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Boring?*

Mademoiselle Julie (Philippe Boesmans),
Parsifal (Richard ESHMRT)

when you have problems sleeping...no pills are needed.

Martin

zzzz


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Well, my sort-of-dislike list...

- Pagliacci. Maybe it's seeing too many scenery-chewing tenors and their horrible fake sobbing. 
- Fidelio. Only saw it in a super boring concert performance in TV, no subs, so perhaps I could like it in a normal stage version. I like Florestan's aria.
- Lohengrin - the music is beautiful and i like it, but the silly story... 
- I find myself liking Otello less and less every time I see it. And it used to be in my top 10! Desdemona is just too blonde (brainwise especially), tenors overact like there's no tomorrow (save for Domingo but even he can get too hammy sometimes) and Credo is... not dark enough for me. It sounds much better with a dark bass-baritone or even bass, but really no match to REAL evil bass arias. The music is all still gorgeous, but the story begins to annoy me.
- Rossini in general. I like a few arias, but occasionally listening them is all I need, I couldn't sit through a whole Rossini opera. All too bright, light, down-to-earth funny, like something trying to be Mozart but lacking Mozart's heavenly touch. (But Basilio's aria is still brilliant.)
- Aida. I guess I just got bored with all the big, blockbuster-y stuff, overdone sets, cliché Egyptian looks and I never really like either Radames or Aida. Amneris, now SHE rocks.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sieglinde said:


> Well, my sort-of-dislike list...
> 
> - Pagliacci. Maybe it's seeing too many scenery-chewing tenors and their horrible fake sobbing.
> - Fidelio. Only saw it in a super boring concert performance in TV, no subs, so perhaps I could like it in a normal stage version. I like Florestan's aria.
> ...


These are sort of surprising dislikes. You've quoted some very good operas and composers.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

It's never the music. Either the libretto or the annoying acting style or boring, dusty performances I've seen.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sure, and you're entitled to your taste.
Some observations, though:
Rossini has also composed opera seria. For his spectacular overtures alone, he's earned his place as a musical genius.
Fidelio was Beethoven's first and only attempt at opera. While it does have a few problems, it is still an astounding masterpiece for a first attempt. Remember, even Wagner, Mozart, and Verdi had some duds when they first started composing operas.
Lohengrin has some of the best operatic music ever composed, and opera in general is not especially known for non-silly plots.
Otello is a spectacular construction, written-through, very precise, and Desdemona's naivité is part of the story and came from Shakespeare's play itself, so, it's not Verdi's or Boito's fault. And Iago's Credo, in my opinion, is evil enough. The opening scene with the storm and "Esultate!" is goose-bumping (it's hard to think of a better opening for an opera), and it holds the high quality all the way to the end. Desdemona's Ave Maria, the Willow song... it's sublime.
Aida was made to order, for the opening of the Cairo opera house. The people who commissioned it wanted it grandiose, so Verdi obliged.
Pagliacci is essential in terms of paradigm shift, being it a big Verismo statement. We can't blame an opera for weak performers.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Usually, I find myself disliking parts of certain operas rather than the entire opera. Those long stretches of philosophizing by various characters in some of Wagner's operas -- Wotan and Brünnhilde's seemingly endless father-daughter chats in "_Die Walküre_;" the Meistersingers' debate in the first act, and Hans Sachs' later monolog in "_Die Meistersinger_" are a few that come to mind -- bore me to pieces after a while, and I understand German. I can only imagine what it's like for someone unfamiliar with the language. I'd also add to this Charlotte's hand-wringing and dithering over Werther at the beginning of that opera's third act. Okay, lady, we get it already; you're feeling some major emotional conflict here. And I'd have to agree with other posters that said gentleman is one self-centered, self-pitying pain in the patootie. (Though Jonas Kaufmann's singing can go a long way to reconciling me with self-centered, self-pitying pains in the patootie.)

The one complete opera I really can't quite warm up to is "_La Boheme_" -- apologies to those (and I know there are many) who love this work. There is some beautiful music, certainly, but I can't muster much sympathy for the characters. They all strike me as rather silly and immature.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

MAuer said:


> The one complete opera I really can't quite warm up to is "_La Boheme_" -- apologies to those (and I know there are many) who love this work. There is some beautiful music, certainly, but I can't muster much sympathy for the characters. They all strike me as rather silly and immature.


Well, they *are* supposed to be silly and immature. There are some excruciatingly beautiful arias, though.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Sometimes I think I don't like an opera but it's the recording/performance I don't like.

I always thought I didn't like Roberto Devereux until I got this










then I got this










and now it's one of my favourite operas.


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## Lipatti (Oct 9, 2010)

Sieglinde said:


> It's never the music. Either the libretto or the annoying acting style or boring, dusty performances I've seen.


In general, I might say that I've started to prefer the CD over the DVD for opera. Reading the synopsis before (or sometimes, after) listening, and solely focusing on the music with my eyes closed while lying in bed, has actually given me more satisfaction than watching a fully-staged production on my television set (or computer). This rules out all the problems I might find with either weak libretto or weak staging.

Of course, nothing compares to the theatre experience.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Sometimes I think I don't like an opera but it's the recording/performance I don't like.
> 
> I always thought I didn't like Roberto Devereux until I got this
> 
> ...


I think that Roberto Devereux is the most melodious of those Donizetti's operas that I know. I love it.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Lipatti said:


> In general, I might say that I've started to prefer the CD over the DVD for opera. Reading the synopsis before (or sometimes, after) listening, and solely focusing on the music with my eyes closed while lying in bed, has actually given me more satisfaction than watching a fully-staged production on my television set (or computer). This rules out all the problems I might find with either weak libretto or weak staging.
> 
> Of course, nothing compares to the theatre experience.


Well, it depends. Sometimes a fully-staged performance enhances an opera, at other times it hinders the enjoyment. It's all a question of quality. The problem is that in order to put together a fully-staged performance you need many different artists and craftsmen and it is hard to get them all to be at the same level of quality. But when it happens, then, it's better than a CD.

For a successful CD, you need good singers, a good conductor, a good orchestra, and a good sound engineer. For a successful DVD, you need all of the above plus a good stage director, a stage designer, carpenters, stagehands, costumes designer, make-up specialists, lighting specialists, good cameramen, good video director, video editor, and the singers need to act as well, they can't stop at all times for a hot tea with honey, they can't sing again the same aria if they didn't get it right the first time, etc., etc. So there's more opportunity for error on a DVD, especially when it's the filming of a live performance.


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## Lipatti (Oct 9, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> So there's more opportunity for error on a DVD, especially when it's the filming of a live performance.


Yes, that's pretty much it. Of course, a nice presentation enhances the experience. For example, I would never have liked Massenet's Thaïs (with Renée Fleming and Thomas Hampson) as much as I do if I hadn't _seen_ it, because I found the plot very interesting and captivating (maybe even more than the music), and the performance really pushed it to another level.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

@ Argus - you often say that opera is rubbish. I've ramdomly bumped into this post of yours, while canvassing the forum for posts about Così fan Tutte (seriously, it was random, I am not stalking you).:lol:

http://www.talkclassical.com/5222-your-opera-journey.html#post81443

I wonder - how do you know that opera is rubbish, if you haven't even been to one yet??? And if I understand you correctly, you haven't even listened to a full one, just bits and pieces?

This sounds to me like something that my son says: I once asked him - "do you like _quindim_?" (it's a typical Portuguese dessert - delicious). He said, "no, I don't like it." I asked - "have you ever had it?" He said, "no, I haven't, but I know I won't like it."

Mmmmm... sure.

Maybe you should give yourself the trouble of actually attending an opera before you say it's rubbish.

Look, I'm sincerely not trying to pick a fight and restart the controversy. I'm just puzzled at your certitude. I think people should allow themselves to experience something before concluding that they don't like it, or even that they don't like the concept and probably won't enjoy it. Otherwise, it's a prejudice, in the root sense of the word: pre - in advance - judice - judgment. You're judging opera in advance of actually even giving it a *first* chance. Wow!

I'm pretty sure that once my son tries _quindim_, he'll love it. He doesn't know what he's missing.

I'm less sure that you'll ever enjoy opera. But just as a piece of friendly advice, you may want to at least give it a try.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I like "semi-stagings" though. It's not as static as a real concert, and with some works it can be beautiful. I saw a Parsifal in this style, all very simple, clean, only a few symbols, some play with colours and lights, all in a huge concert hall, but played and acted. And it was perfect. Well of corse, there were a few brilliant ideas - for example, putting the chorus on three floors. The sound was incredibly otherworldly.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sieglinde said:


> I like "semi-stagings" though. It's not as static as a real concert, and with some works it can be beautiful. I saw a Parsifal in this style, all very simple, clean, only a few symbols, some play with colours and lights, all in a huge concert hall, but played and acted. And it was perfect. Well of corse, there were a few brilliant ideas - for example, putting the chorus on three floors. The sound was incredibly otherworldly.


Since I generally like minimalistic settings, I'd probably like these. I've seen a couple of semi-staged operas at the university, by students, and loved them. Also, La Damnation de Faust in concert is quite appealing and it is one of my favorite "operas" although I've never seen a staged production of it (I'll soon see the Lepage staging that is on MetPlayer).


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## AlanPalgut (Apr 11, 2012)

1. Anything by Jules Massenet. Chances are that the title character will die.
2. _Eduardo e Cristina_ by Gioacchino Rossini. The composer was just too lazy to add new music here.
3. _Mona_ by Dr. Horatio Parker. Its first performance in 1912 was a failure and it never resurfaced in full, although incomplete concert performances popped up in 1935 and 1961 and a vocal score exists.
4. _Mitridate_ by Mozart. It's essentially one solo aria after another.
5. _Alfonso und Estrella_ by Franz Schubert. The King of Lieder and his librettist wrote a nightmare of an opera that was turned down in both Vienna and Berlin.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> OK, we all love opera otherwise we wouldn't be regulars in this forum...


Bit of an overstatement I would have thought. I don't even like opera, let alone love it, though I always have time for operas written by my favourite composers (like _The midsummer marriage_) and there are a few which are so compelling even I am affected (eg _Bluebeard's castle_).


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## Operadowney (Apr 4, 2012)

...I should be ashamed of myself for saying this as a 20 year old baritone...but Donizetti's _L'elisir d'amore_ does absolutely nothing for me.


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## FranzKroger (Apr 6, 2012)

I heard not everyone likes Parzifal. It's for singers and the audience a very demanding Opera. 
I personally saw a few people sitting in front of me in the opera, that fell asleep during the performance.  
Ofcourse, those few "fans of the opera" were gone after the break was over 

But I personally enjoy it everytime I see it.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Bit of an overstatement I would have thought. I don't even like opera, let alone love it, though I always have time for operas written by my favourite composers (like _The midsummer marriage_) and there are a few which are so compelling even I am affected (eg _Bluebeard's castle_).


Well, how about "a substantial majority?"

Frankly, I wouldn't waste my time visiting forums (okay, the correct Latin plural is "fora") dedicated to something I don't like.


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