# Differences in orchestral sound according to country...



## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Are anyone here experts on orchestra sound and characteristics of different orchestras? I've only heard a little bit about this and it seems it's not so apparent these days as it was before. I found a little article...
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/arts/music/what-makes-the-vienna-philharmonic-so-distinctive.html


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

That's right. 50-60 years ago you could instantly identify an orchestra from France because of the winds, especially the bassoon sound. Russian orchestra in the horn vibrato and piercing brass. American orchestras were rhythmically precise and had brass sections with power no one else did. Those days are long gone, sadly enough. Orchestra auditions are open world-wide and the sounds of even the great European orchestras have become so homogenized that it's nearly impossible to hear a difference. The Lyon, France orchestra still uses the French basson, and boy does it show. The Tchaikovsky 4th with Sokhiev is ear opening as you'd swear there are tenor saxophones in the orchestra - but no, it's those Buffet bassoons! Today's Berlin Philharmonic sounds nothing like Karajan's orchestra and that might be a good thing.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2019)

Another difference is the use of rotary valve brass in European orchestras, compared with piston valves in the U.S. There can be subtle differences such as the bore diameter of wind instruments. And, of course, different customs of performance that have washed out now that orchestras are so cosmopolitan. Noticing differences is one of the rewards of listening to old records.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

yes, 50-60 years ago the National differences were quite readily noticeable...Horn vibrato Russian, French and Czech, widely varying tones of oboes, bassoon, clarinets...

at present, orchestras have trended towards a more generic, homogenized "Bb" sonority. 
There are reasons for this - 
-the widespread availability of recordings make different styles easily heard by musicians world-wide
-the present day audition process encourages a generic, please-all, "don't-offend-anybody" approach to tone, phrasing, articulation, etc. One must get past the general audition committee to make the finals - for better or worse, that's what it is...
-Conductors no longer directly hear and hire [or fire] musicians....it used to be that the conductor would individually hire each musician by personal audition with him...he could choose exactly the sound and style he wanted...this will produce a unique individual sound in many cases - ie - by the end of his years in Philadelphia, Ormandy had hired EVERY musician in the orchestra...IIRC, so did Szell with Cleveland. Now, the conductor hears only those who made it thru the committee process.
- that said - the very top orchestras still use a "feeder system" to perpetuate their sound - students of incumbent musicians, who will very often play in the orchestra's training ensembles [ie - Chicago Civic Symphony]....the very top orchestras do this..

re the French bassoons - a different instrument from the German [Heckel] system.....these used to be far more popular and widespread - in fact the English used French bassoons up until at least WWII - Archie Camden [BBCSO] was the first to switch to Heckel system...a rapid turnover followed - the last major English bassoonist to use French was Cecil James [Philharmonia Orch, RoyPO]
The French system declined on the Continent as well, even the Orchestre de Paris converted [under Barenboim, iirc] - 
I don't too much care for the French bassoon in orchestra, too thin sounding...however, as a solo instrument it can be very beautiful - flexible, great high range facility....to hear a musician like Maurice Allard perform on the Buffet [French] bassoon is to hear a great artist at work...fabulous player.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Another difference is the use of rotary valve brass in European orchestras, compared with piston valves in the U.S. There can be subtle differences such as the bore diameter of wind instruments. And, of course, different customs of performance that have washed out now that orchestras are so cosmopolitan. Noticing differences is one of the rewards of listening to old records.


Does any of this have anything to do with the fact that American trumpet players hold their instruments with the valves up and in European orchestras they hold them with the valves angled off to the side?


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

It's ironic, but orchestral individuality is probably primarily a casualty of recent hiring practices that promote diversity of personnel. If musicians are hired from all over the world, then you're not getting as many of those musicians who grew up locally and were trained in a certain culture of sound that makes them play in a similar way.

Orchestras that still have local feeder systems have probably been most able to preserve their characteristic sound. If they are getting their musicians from certain schools or teachers, they have control over their sound. If they allow their music director to subjectively choose musicians with the desired sound, they have control over their sound. I'll bet Vienna is this kind of orchestra. They are also not a very diverse group compared to other orchestras, to look at them.

Unbiased hiring is the fairest, but it has probably homogenized orchestras.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

While the Berlin Philharmonic has it's own training organization, the Karajan Academy, they have a very diverse membership. For example:

First concertmasters
Daniel Strabawa - Poland
Daishin Kashimoto - Japan
Noah Bendix-Balgley - USA
...and before Noah was Guy Braunstein - Israel

Horns (until recently):
Stefan Dohr - Germany
Fergus MacWilliam - Scotland
Stefan de Leval Jezierski - USA
Sarah Willis - England
Klaus Wallendorf - Germany
Andrej Žust - Slovenia
Georg Schreckenberger - Germany


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> ... even the great European orchestras have become so homogenized that it's nearly impossible to hear a difference.


Orchestras may become homogenized, but it's a harder thing for _concert halls_ to become so. Those who miss the once distinctive sounds of a specific orchestra may still be able to revel in the distinctive sound a specific hall lends to whatever homogenized group of players play in it.

And on recordings, you've always also got the engineers to save the day by mixing their specific blend out of the homogenized froth.

Fortunately, at least the musical pieces all sound different (unless you're into, say, Phillip Glass).


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Open Book said:


> Does any of this have anything to do with the fact that American trumpet players hold their instruments with the valves up and in European orchestras they hold them with the valves angled off to the side?


Piston valve instruments are generally held straight up, hand on top...rotary valve appear "sideways", hand to the side...it's how the mechanisms are constructed...
piston valve instruments generally have more brilliance, more projection, more "pop" to the notes...this is due to a number of different factors...bore shape and dimension, materials, plating, mouthpiece used, and the actual physical nature of the valve constructions...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Becca said:


> While the Berlin Philharmonic has it's own training organization, the Karajan Academy, they have a very diverse membership. For example:
> 
> First concertmasters
> Daniel Strabawa - Poland
> ...


Right, diversity is not the issue - training and performance in the style of the parent organization is what is important...the top orchestras teach and train their students to play in that style, no matter where they come from.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jukka_Paetynen
Did some surfing on orchestral sound and found a Doctor of Science in Finland who is very interested in acoustics. I read a bit and must say it's too smart for my brain  Maybe someone here will find his articles interesting.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jukka_Paetynen
> Did some surfing on orchestral sound and found a Doctor of Science in Finland who is very interested in acoustics. I read a bit and must say it's too smart for my brain  Maybe someone here will find his articles interesting.


Jeezo, I tried to read his paper on 'Architectural Features That Make Music Bloom in Concert Halls' and found myself nodding off very quickly. He even managed to make the summary so convoluted it was hard to understand what he was getting at.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

In the olden days,  the principal section leaders might stay with an orchestra for most of their career, and one could hear their distinct sound on different recordings as a section. I found this true with the Cleveland, Philadelphia, and New York orchestras. But that era seems to be long gone and there’s too many changes in personnel for a truly recognizable sound to develop. I rather miss it. With Karajan there was frequently the overload of the violins. Chicago was brass happy. Why some of these characteristics developed I believe had a great deal to do with the acoustics of where they normally played and of course the preferences of the conductor. Today, I agree that most of the orchestra seem far more homogeneous and generic… good, excellent, terrific, but not necessarily recognizable as having a distinct personality... Without trying to describe them at the moment, I feel there are also characteristic preferences in attitude, style, and sound from country to country. For instance, the French orchestras seem to have a lighter and more refined texture of sound than the German orchestras, etc. I love the sound of the Slavic orchestras playing Dvorak, or the Vienna Philharmonic playing the Strauss waltzes that seem to capture their spirit so well. I hope those qualities of national characteristics and personality are never lost or diluted.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Larkenfield said:


> In the olden days,  the principal section leaders might stay with an orchestra for most of their career, and one could hear their distinct sound on different recordings as a section. I found this true with the Cleveland, Philadelphia, and New York orchestras. But that era seems to be long gone and there's too many changes in personnel for a truly recognizable sound to develop.


The same thing has happened with conductors. Think Stokowski, Ormandy, Szell, Koussevitsky, Paray, Karajan...it's no coincidence that the orchestras of Philadelphia, Cleveland, Boston Detroit, and Berlin achieved their unique, distinctive sound with the same maestro forging it week to week. Nowadays, conductors are zipping all over the world spending little time "at home" and can't influence the sound that much - and I also suspect very few of the younger generation have that ability anyway. Long gone are the great orchestra builder conductors.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^That reads like a 'things were so much better in the past' reaction. I am sure that many have the ability, whether they end up in a situation to do it is a totally different matter. Having said that, I can certainly think of a few conductors who have had long tenures with recognized growth of their orchestras ... Levine at the Met, Pappano at Covent Garden, even Rattle with his 18 years in Birmingham. I would probably also include MTT at San Francisco and Elder at the Halle.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2019)

I think it can be traced back to Walter Legge and the Philharmonica. I remember reading that his avowed goal was to create an orchestra that had no style, but could play in any style, depending on the music and the conductor. That is what we have now, to some extent, orchestras that are flexible and can self-consciously channel different styles.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Baron Scarpia said:


> I think it can be traced back to Walter Legge and the Philharmonica. I remember reading that his avowed goal was to create an orchestra that had no style, but could play in any style, depending on the music and the conductor. That is what we have now, to some extent, orchestras that are flexible and can self-consciously channel different styles.


I don't think the "homogenization" is the result of any one person or orchestra ...the previously cited changes in the industry are the causes for this more general similarity amongst orchestras....
it's true tho, that the best English and American orchestras can play most convincingly in any style...training and professional experience are major contributing factors...most musicians coming up thru the ranks will have plenty of experience performing "pops", jazz, Broadway, Latin, Rock, etc...


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

https://www.mdg.de/frame1e.htm
Not exactly any reason for why things are different, but label MDG has proudly written a little bit about their recording process.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Great topic here, many interesting posts.
A discussion which we could expand abit. 
We all know the old adage *composer's land makes the best orchestras for his music*...seems to hold pretty much true to this all too common belief.

Yet lets look further to today 's orchestras,,which some here feel have become *generic* which may/maynot bea good thing. My Q is this:
Which orchestra/conductor do you feel is trans geographic, allowing a composer from a far away land, to capture the composers spirit in the muisc. 
My 1st choice would be Salonen/Los Angeles. 
= a true international orchestra. 
Also note worthy to mention is Neemi Jarvi's recordings of Prokofiev with the Scottish NSO.
Alos would like to mention the BBC syo as a true international orchestra. 


Some of the conductors/orchestras of old, The Ormandy's. The Szells, The Bernsteins, The Karajans,,I 'never went for. I have none of these conductors represented in my cd collection. 
Except my new cd, Karajan in 2nd Viennese/DG , which took me by surprise. 
But much of te 1960;'s recordings do not interest me much. 
Reiner, Szell, Ormandy,,I never cared for any of THEIR (!!) recordings. Add Dutoits stuff to that *pile*, add also Slatkin with the St Louie, , Famous for sure, but for me fame is only a 4 letter word when it comes to great CM. 
wow, the poor conductors in the 1960's-1970's, Even into the 80's. .
Haitink was OK,, considering he had a top notch orchestra, he 's only fair.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Larkenfield said:


> In the olden days,  the principal section leaders might stay with an orchestra for most of their career, and one could hear their distinct sound on different recordings as a section. I found this true with the Cleveland, Philadelphia, and New York orchestras. But that era seems to be long gone and there's too many changes in personnel for a truly recognizable sound to develop. I rather miss it. With Karajan there was frequently the overload of the violins. Chicago was brass happy. Why some of these characteristics developed I believe had a great deal to do with the acoustics of where they normally played and of course the preferences of the conductor. Today, I agree that most of the orchestra seem far more homogeneous and generic… good, excellent, terrific, but not necessarily recognizable as having a distinct personality... Without trying to describe them at the moment, I feel there are also characteristic preferences in attitude, style, and sound from country to country. For instance, the French orchestras seem to have a lighter and more refined texture of sound than the German orchestras, etc. I love the sound of the Slavic orchestras playing Dvorak, or the Vienna Philharmonic playing the Strauss waltzes that seem to capture their spirit so well. I hope those qualities of national characteristics and personality are never lost or diluted.


Like Adolph "Bud" Herseth, who was principal trumpet in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra from 1948 until 2001, and served as principal trumpet emeritus from 2001 until his retirement in 2004.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> The same thing has happened with conductors. Think Stokowski, Ormandy, Szell, Koussevitsky, Paray, Karajan...it's no coincidence that the orchestras of Philadelphia, Cleveland, Boston Detroit, and Berlin achieved their unique, distinctive sound with the same maestro forging it week to week. Nowadays, conductors are zipping all over the world spending little time "at home" and can't influence the sound that much - and I also suspect very few of the younger generation have that ability anyway. Long gone are the great orchestra builder conductors.


Or Svetlanov with the USSR State Symphony or Rozhdestvensky with the USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony, or even Solti with the Chicago Symphony. Vaclav Neumann with the Czech Philharmonic.

Indeed, the list goes on.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Orfeo said:


> Like Adolph "Bud" Herseth, who was principal trumpet in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra from 1948 until 2001, and served as principal trumpet emeritus from 2001 until his retirement in 2004.


Amazing player!! universally recognized as a great trumpeter, superior musician...his tone and style are imitated [inter]nationally...a most influential musician....
The great Chicago trumpet section under Herseth was a true breeding ground of orchestra principals over the years -
some "alumni" :

Phil Smith - NYPO
Frank Kaderabek - PhilaOrch
George Vosburgh - PittsSO
Rudi Nashan - SyracuseSO
Charles Geyer - HoustonSO


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Maybe I should have said "orchestral sound according to conductor" instead. The orchestras are professionals and can adapt to whom is leading them. In the guitar world there has been different sound esthetics between Europe and South America, but now I don't think I can really tell in a blind test.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Maybe I should have said "orchestral sound according to conductor" instead. The orchestras are professionals and can adapt to whom is leading them.


No, the national trends are evident...maybe not as pronounced as in the past - but basic concepts regarding tone, articulation, attack , phrasing, etc still exist....the conductor can change this, over many rehearsals and performances - this usually requires some personnel changes...established professional musicians are not going to suddenly alter their basic tone, or style of playing....they can make modifications to a point, but they're not going to revamp their entire approach...


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

...but, what are typical words to describe different characteristics of sound/tone in the various national styles?


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