# Can the concert hall experience attract younger audiences and survive?



## Guest (May 24, 2020)

Our national newspaper, "The Australian" is carrying an article this weekend by a conductor of the West Australian Symphony Orchestra, Asher Fisch, and here is just a brief excerpt from this: he discusses the Covid-19 lockdown and its consequences for serious music.

"*It's disastrous, and the future of concert music will never be the same," says Fisch, who has been guest conductor for major orchestras in the US and Europe and WASO's principal conductor since 2014. "It's not just the problem of closed halls and people *sitting together, but the concert-goer's age is high compared to sport or cinema; they are in the at-risk category.

"We're basically the old people's home of the arts. We're coming from a low point and the concert format has not renewed itself over the years. We have to come up with new ideas of how to deliver music. Nobody will pay to watch a concert online because there are free concerts already on the internet, with all the greatest figures from Herbert von Karajan to Leonard Bernstein.*"

Any suggestions on how this 'problem' can be addressed? How do we get renewal with younger audiences? Is the concert hall experience dead in the water; a relic of the 19th and 20th centuries?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

(I wrote a longish reply that disappeared because of my aging fumblefingers, that I don't feel like re-creating. Is there any way that an "un-do" key can be added, like MS Word has? Just a thought.)


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

MarkW said:


> (I wrote a longish reply that disappeared because of my aging fumblefingers, that I don't feel like re-creating. Is there any way that an "un-do" key can be added, like MS Word has? Just a thought.)


Are you familiar with Ctrl+Z?

The concert hall experience as it is today will not attract younger audiences. This is because of many reasons, some of which are social factors, the way people perceive "classical" music, and an all-round decline in music education. Revitalizing concert-hall music-i.e., restoring its revolutionary roots-requires many things that are out of our control. What we _can_ do is limit unspoken rules at concerts, quit deifying certain composers, and play old masterworks as if they were written yesterday (rather than treating them like museum pieces).


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

MarkW said:


> (I wrote a longish reply that disappeared because of my aging fumblefingers, that I don't feel like re-creating. Is there any way that an "un-do" key can be added, like MS Word has? Just a thought.)


Please do try again later if you have the energy; I'd like to have your views.


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

Portamento said:


> Are you familiar with Ctrl+Z?
> 
> The concert hall experience as it is today will not attract younger audiences. This is because of many reasons, some of which are social factors, the way people perceive "classical" music, and an all-round decline in music education. Revitalizing concert-hall music-i.e., restoring its revolutionary roots-requires many things that are out of our control. What we _can_ do is limit unspoken rules at concerts, quit deifying certain composers, and play old masterworks as if they were written yesterday (rather than treating them like museum pieces).


But how will younger generations know about these 'unspoken rules' and any changes brought about if they don't attend concerts already? The same applies to recitals, of course. Those who don't attend regularly at the concert hall don't know the music on offer; how could they? And for them all serious music is Beethoven, Mozart and Tchaikovsky.

I remember seeing a film which brushed the surface of this only briefly: "Born Yesterday", with Judy Holliday and William Holden. The latter is hired to educate the former and she expresses an interest in learning about serious music. Holden speaks about "the better music" and takes her to a concert with Beethoven Symphony #2. She appreciates the experience and immediately starts to read about 'Beat-hoven'!! Though it was a silly comedy, it raised issues about music education even back in the early 1950s when the film was made.

This might be heresy for some musical purists, but what about the notion of getting people into venues with our symphony orchestras playing film music etc. and then at least one item of non-film music, eg. Tchaikovsky's "Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture". There will be many who are not familiar with this but who'll be swept up by the experience and likely to return.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Portamento said:


> play old masterworks as if they were written yesterday (rather than treating them like museum pieces).


I agree with this. This is why I lament the dearth of conductors nowadays (solo musicians, more frequently) who refuse to take risks and just want to present everything "as the composer wrote it" (I don't believe there's such thing) rather than infusing them with their dynamic personalities to make them exciting and appealing to the average person. Restoring the art of interpretation would definitely go a long way in revitalizing the typical concert hall experience. As a young person who is intensely passionate and enthusiastic about classical music, I am indeed saddened that attending concerts largely means being surrounded by people 3-4 times my age who seem to be attending largely as a social event rather than out of voluntary desire to hear the music, with the few my age looking like they would rather be anasthetized than be there. Not to pass broad judgments, but that's my (admittedly) limited experience so far.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> Can the concert hall experience attract younger audiences and survive?


Overall as an institution, I don't think so. There will probably be charismatic performers here and there like Yuja Wang, but overall I think it's obsolete. I think the dry ritualism and music-as-gymnastics-routine fostered by the competition mindset is finishing it off.


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

consuono said:


> Overall as an institution, I don't think so. There will probably be charismatic performers here and there like Yuja Wang, but overall I think it's obsolete. I think the dry ritualism and music-as-gymnastics-routine fostered by the competition mindset is finishing it off.


You are presumably talking about instrumental competitions, for which there is never a shortage of competitors eager to carry off the prize. Indeed, this is the paradox. More and more hugely talented musicians trying to fill ever-diminishing performing opportunities.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'dry ritualism' as this has never presented a problem for me, personally. The same kind of 'ritualism' exists in live theatre - if I have your meaning correct.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

The problem is that amongst the younger crowd (up to what age you want to define as younger) is that classical music has an image problem. 

It is perceived as boring and old fashioned and no amount of programming will convince people to go to the concert hall when just the words concert and orchestra are enough to put them off.

A secondary consideration is that it is perceived in some places as elitist and only for a few, when thanks to streaming/digital and recordings in general it has never been more accessible. But this perception will natural make some people dismiss it.

I am not sure that education is the solution, if the kids find it boring they will associate classical music with boring school lessons. Exposure while people are in a open or inquisitive state of mind is key, but how you go about it I don't know.

My own journey to classical music came from seeds sown during my dad random channel hoping and settled on opera as curiosity and to annoy my mum. But it was years later when I decided to explore.

The main challenge will be that classical music is inherently acoustic with a tone, rhythm and instruments that are totally alien to the modern electric instruments used in most pop/rock/dj etc music.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Christabel said:


> You are presumably talking about instrumental competitions, for which there is never a shortage of competitors eager to carry off the prize. Indeed, this is the paradox. More and more hugely talented musicians trying to fill ever-diminishing performing opportunities.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by 'dry ritualism' as this has never presented a problem for me, personally. The same kind of 'ritualism' exists in live theatre - if I have your meaning correct.


Yes. I understand competitions do serve a purpose in giving exposure to brilliant young musicians who otherwise might never get that. But at the same time I think it has encouraged this note-perfect cookie cutter approach in a lot of ways which I think has been harmful. (I would blame the rise of the conservatory for that as well.) Music becomes sort of like a gymnastics routine and competitors are just seeing if they can get through it without slipping or falling. That's where the paradox is for me, or maybe a Catch-22. And at any rate, these days a fairly decent musician who's photogenic or who has some kind of shtick can probably gain more recognition on YouTube on a shoestring budget than the latest Tchaikovsky Competition winner.

I just think the "dry ritualism" is a sort of going through the motions because that's how it's been done for generations, with putting on your best duds and maybe engaging in some social niceties to go watch a bunch of people in tuxedos and evening gowns. Now I know there's nothing quite like live performances, but I just sometimes wonder how many go to actually hear the music. Theater is pretty much the same way. I think ultimately it may be that recordings and now streaming and the wall-to-wall oversaturation of anything and everything makes live performances a lot less meaningful than they were in past eras, when that was the only way you were going to hear that kind of music. You couldn't just load a Beethoven or Mahler symphony onto whatever device and blast it through your speakers at any time you want.
It just doesn't seem to be as vital as it probably once was. Glenn Gould was quirky and eccentric and not to everyone's taste, but I think he was probably right way back in the 60s about the obsolescence of the concert hall.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

I don't know everyone's situation, but I reckon that younger people would be inclined to attend live concerts if they were actually familiar with the music. The problem I think is ignorance. People don't understand that classical music is actually quite enjoyable. I also think that the constant Beethoven, Mozart, Bach stuff is going to turn people off. Not everyone is going to relate to those composers, and there is much classical music drastically different from those three. The composers who are relatively "edgier" (sorry I got another thread in my mind and can't think of a better word) than those three don't get enough attention overall, in my opinion. Show them that there is much more than those three. I don't know who should show them, but they need to have the exposure to the other composers.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Portamento said:


> Are you familiar with Ctrl+Z?
> 
> The concert hall experience as it is today will not attract younger audiences. This is because of many reasons, some of which are social factors, the way people perceive "classical" music, and an all-round decline in music education. Revitalizing concert-hall music-i.e., restoring its revolutionary roots-requires many things that are out of our control. What we _can_ do is limit unspoken rules at concerts, *quit deifying certain composers*, and play old masterworks as if they were written yesterday (rather than treating them like museum pieces).


Ah, yes. I agree with the highlighted point.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

I myself wouldn't blame the conservatories for advocating and training brilliance in musicianship, it is their duty to prepare students for the reality of trying to get work as a player post graduation. If anything, one can easily point the finger at Liszt or Paganini if one perceives a problem with brilliance in performance. Excellence is encouraged in order to serve the music, to be able to play free from technical limitation in order to express the music without hindrance. Nobody wants to pay money to be on the nervous edge of their seat, wondering if the next florid and difficult moment will be better than the last disastrous fumble. Easy excellence and competence is also required for comprehensible ensemble playing in many difficult works new and old, that litter the repertoire.

Often there is an equating of technical brilliance with dryness of expression. The players who are virtuosic, feel the music as much as anyone else - how could they not and why on earth would they interpret a piece any other way than musical as they feel it? 

Back on point, I can't help but agree with the sentiment that the concert hall is veering towards being a museum, perhaps even a mausoleum and wish it wasn't so. It's not the music, nor musicians fault, it is commerce that is the main driver imv and the main problem, necessary though it is. Worryingly I can't see a way out of the concert hall's continued demise but continue to believe in it as a viable venue for great music, fulfilling the same function an art gallery does.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

zxxyxxz said:


> The problem is that amongst the younger crowd (up to what age you want to define as younger) is that classical music has an image problem.
> 
> It is perceived as boring and old fashioned and no amount of programming will convince people to go to the concert hall when just the words concert and orchestra are enough to put them off.
> 
> ...


I wonder if this is a big factor. I wonder if people nowadays tend to find enjoy classical music later in life when the seeds have already been planted and they have gotten bored with all the popular music which will have moved to something differently from what they recognized in their youth.

Perhaps when people are young, they get caught up in this peer mentality and thus go with whatever is deemed by their peers to be the next great thing.

Maybe as people mature, they move away from the mentality of being "cool" or whatever and gain the patience to explore that composer their parents or grandparents listened to or just become curious and willing enough to try something different.

Perhaps appreciation for classical music is a perennial phenomenon of maturity (perhaps this is why classical music is perceived as "not cool", old fashioned, dull, uppity, snobbish, or whatever young people think it is).

Perhaps the young people who appreciate are the exceptions in the audience. Maybe they are the few who have a maturity beyond their years, a stronger curiosity than most, or a "sheltered" experience.

As a 20-year-old who loves classical music and live concerts and was homeschooled Kindergarten through 12th grade, I certainly fit into the category of a young person who hypothetically was placed into an ideal situation to love classical music due to being sheltered and thus not influenced by peers to be pushed to like something else.

True, my younger brother was in the same basic environment as I was but doesn't seem to have any interest in classical music. That makes me think that there are various personality traits that perhaps make one more susceptible to classical music at an early age. Perhaps "nerdiness"? My brother would probably refer to me as a nerd. Maybe that is a factor, but I don't know. Of course my brother has been much more into social media than I have been and is thus less sheltered in a sense. I often have to ask him what something I saw on the internet means.

TLDR: Maybe classical music or classical music concerts aren't necessarily dying but are a phenomenon of the mature or a few young people that don't necessarily fit the mold of their peers for whatever reason (environment, personality, extra exposure to the genre, etc.).


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

All interesting comments and from different age groups, which is good.

@consuono: ..."_I just sometimes wonder how many go to actually hear the music_." You often hear this comment but I think I may be able to help out with an answer. In 2011 my spouse and myself spent a year living in Vienna and in 2015 we travelled through a large part of Europe as I wanted to attend concerts in Berlin, Leipzig, Oslo, Amsterdam. In 2011 I went a great deal to the Musikverein, the Wiener Konzerthaus (not as much as the former) and Staatsoper (a couple of times). Also Theater an der Wien. On almost all those concert experiences (except Leipzig, where the woman sitting next to me was rude) I was able to speak to the random people sitting next to me - of all ages - during the break. Not at every concert, of course, because some people rush for the bar when the break occurs!! But I can tell you that from my conversations with Viennese, Dutch, Germans and Norwegians they all knew a great deal about the music and came because they loved it. I cannot recall how many times people spoke about their connections to the venue, the orchestra, the music. It was wonderfully enlightening. Some even emailed me when I returned to Australia and wanted me to come back to Vienna!! At the Wiener Staatsoper I shared a 7-seat box with, among 2 or 3 others, a 30 year old Austrian fellow who was in the construction industry!! We travelled home on the U4 together and he kept talking about his love of music and his desire to do more travelling to hear more music!! As I got off the train a stop before his he said, "thank you for your company; I've enjoyed our talk". He a young man, me a woman of senior years. And he told me lots about the history of the Wiener Staatsoper, Dominque Meyer and political ructions at that venue.

In short, the vast majority of people are there because of the music. I fervently believe this. On a tram going home one night with my spouse a man was talking in an animated fashion up the back about Beethoven and Schubert. This was after one of my earliest concerts. I didn't have enough Wienerische to understand what he was saying but he was obviously referring to the concert we'd seen. Spouse and myself alighted at McDonalds for a late night hot chocolate before heading to our apartment and I said to him, "can you imagine having or hearing a conversation like this on a Sydney train or bus??!!!" I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.

The Asian nations seem to have adopted western classical music with both hands - young and old - and I feel that concertizing will be with them in perpetuity, but I have very grave concerns about European peoples. To the Asian people Simon Rattle and the Berliner Phlharmoniker are rock stars.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Everyone seems to be missing that what classical music needs is _new works_ that people will like for the same reasons they like Beethoven, Mozart, Mendelssohn & Co.

John Williams and Alma Deutscher fill halls allright, and the average age of attendees is 15-20 years lower (or so I heard)

As long as it's "about performers" of old music, we are talking state-sponsored museums and exhibitions.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I think classical music promoters and schedulers have been slow to catch onto changes that have occurred in the entertainment world the past 20 years. If you look at live entertainment venues including theater, sports and music you see it isn't just the main event that is the attraction any longer. Most venues that sponsor these events have lots of other attractions there to keep people engaged. The average sports venue, for example, is also a shopping center full of restaurants and drinking establishments.

The era when it was just the event itself was enough to satisfy people is over. I know people in the classical music industry who simply cannot grasp this new reality of the world. I don't think 21st century people are willing to come to an auditorium, be told where to sit, to shut up for an hour or two or six, and do little or nothing more than watch the main event unfold before them. This is not criticism; it is my reaction to the world we live in.

When I was young in the 1960s and 1970s the world was on a delay that no longer exists. In 1975 there was a famous shipwreck where I live -- the Edmund Fitzgerald, an ore freighter, sunk mysteriously one night in a storm in Lake Superior. I worked the afternoon into the evening at a retail store the day after it went down. I never heard about it until I went to lunch at 5 pm on a Saturday the day after it sunk. Today people would know about this instantly or as soon as news of it spread, whichever occurred first.

Anyone that is an adult in 2020 has grown up with computers and likely uses a handheld device for everything in their life. They live on an instant switch in time when nothing is delayed. For them a two second delay in acquiring information via their handheld device in an interminable wait. Their expectation of technology is that it be instantaneous; anything else in less than expected.

I just don't think classical music the way it has been historically presented is any longer suitable to people in the 21st century. I think that could be ameliorated by the sudden appearance of a composer messiah that shakes the world and creates music everyone wants to hear but that hasn't happened in decades. I think the reason for that is at least in part the same reason the art is no longer suitable to customers: it is too static and slow, too hidebound in its presentation format.

Professional baseball went through this in the 1970s and 1980s. Its answer was to change the game a little and start buliding stadiums that were also shopping centers, restaurant and beer venues and even carnivals with rides. Most new ones also have walkways all the way around so you can take a stroll if the game bores you, look at the statues, or just mingle with the crowd. This is what baseball had to do to keep its fans engaged; the game alone was no longer enough.

Look also at movie theaters. In the 20th century and through the era of malls you went to the theater and watched the movie, maybe bought popocorn, then went home. Most of those theaters are closed. The ones that have survived also have food and drink available for viewers who can sit and have dinner or a beer while they watch the film. Again the art form itself, which was once enough, is no longer.

I don't think classical music has figured this out and I think this, combined with the lack of composers that bring millions of new fans to the art form, is at least part of the reason it appears to be going backward over time. 

There is plenty of audience for classical music worldwide and I know some environs have tried alternatives to keep paying customers engaged -- screens with visuals that accompany the music, the appearance or use of crossover bands or alternate music, things like that. For the most part, however, I think most symphony orchestras and opera companies are going same old same old.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

larold said:


> I think classical music promoters and schedulers have been slow to catch onto changes that have occurred in the entertainment world the past 20 years. If you look at live entertainment venues including theater, sports and music you see it isn't just the main event that is the attraction any longer. Most venues that sponsor these events have lots of other attractions there to keep people engaged. The average sports venue, for example, is also a shopping center full of restaurants and drinking establishments. (...)


That would require significant investments, and before they would pay off, we would be in the great unknown, in the 2040s or 2050s. I think you would be right if this solution was implemented ca. 2000, and all concert halls built since then were variety establishments. I'm not sure now.

So reports Business Insider:



> "American malls are dying out. Retail complexes all over the US are being clobbered by store closures sweeping the country. Retailers have announced more than 8,600 closings so far in 2019 and according to a report done by Credit Suisse in 2017, between 20% to 25% of malls will close by 2022".


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

The last Proms concert I went to was packed, and not just with oldies like me. For a Sibelius violin concerto, which I don't think is exactly block-buster material as far as marketing is concerned.

Is there really a problem?

If there is, what do the Proms do right that the others aren't doing?

*Edited to add:* my last Snape Maltings trip (for a Shostakovich symphony and some Britten) was also packed, though the audience was noticeably greyer there than in London. It seemed pretty vibrant to me, nonetheless.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_The last Proms concert I went to was packed, and not just with oldies like me. For a Sibelius violin concerto, which I don't think is exactly block-buster material as far as marketing is concerned. Is there really a problem?_

That's in London, correct? With a potential audience of what, 15 million?

You know the Philadelphia and Detroit (USA) symphonies declared bankruptcy this century, correct? And the Minneapolis Symphony did not perform an entire season one year because of money trouble.

In a megamarket like New York, London and Tokyo there is always going to be enough audience to support things the way they've always been done. It's the rest of the world where the problems exist.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> The last Proms concert I went to was packed, and not just with oldies like me. For a Sibelius violin concerto, which I don't think is exactly block-buster material as far as marketing is concerned.
> 
> Is there really a problem?
> 
> ...


The Proms: "the world's largest and most democratic musical festival" in the world's capital of music --- coincidentally a multi-million metropolis full of tourists --- in summer, and only going on for 8 weeks out of 52 in a year.

That's not your daily concert experience, and the other concert you mention is a proof of that. I think the proms are a special case, just like the Viennese New Year's Concert


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

larold said:


> _The last Proms concert I went to was packed, and not just with oldies like me. For a Sibelius violin concerto, which I don't think is exactly block-buster material as far as marketing is concerned. Is there really a problem?_
> 
> That's in London, correct? With a potential audience of what, 15 million?
> 
> ...


I edited my comment to add that a concert in Aldeburgh was packed, too. Not exactly megaopolis central.

Concerts I attend in Nottingham are also pretty well attended, though the audience does generally appear near-mummified.

I think the Proms also pulls in an audience from all over the country in my experience (I used to travel to them from Cambridge; now I travel to them from Nottingham). They do something others don't, is all I'm saying. I wish I could put my finger on it.

What I will say also is that attending live music events is usually something of a trial for me. There's always one old person who decides the quiet part of the slow movement is just exactly the time she needs to unwrap, slowly, a throat sweet. There's inevitably someone who develops a bad case of galloping pneumonia that can only be rectified by a coughing fit. Someone's children will always decide to swing their feet in time to the march and kick the bejeesus out of the back of my seat in the process. Some idiot will always forget that their mobile phone has a 'silent' mode.

Personally, I do enjoy the occasional concert or opera. But for the most part, I _prefer_ to enjoy my music at home, in private and with zero distractions. And in that respect, has the classical music listener ever been better served than now? We have more labels, more obscure composers than you can shake a stick at. From the perspective of recorded music, we've never had it so good.

Concert promoters being concerned at getting the youngsters in has been a problem ever since I was chief cashier at the Royal Festival Hall in the 1980s. It hasn't stopped classical music from thriving, nonetheless. And indeed, maybe 'young people', if it's ever permissible to aggregate such a diverse group, generally prefer to listen to their music on personal devices? So that, yes, maybe the concert hall experience will finally die a death and orchestras will have to find a different way to make money... which, as recording artists, they are quite likely to be able to do if their audience is permanently plugged into one device or another.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> And indeed, maybe 'young people', if it's ever permissible to aggregate such a diverse group, generally prefer to listen to their music on personal devices? So that, yes, maybe the concert hall experience will finally die a death and orchestras will have to find a different way to make money... which, as recording artists, they are quite likely to be able to do if their audience is permanently plugged into one device or another.


It's a simple market factor. Why pay for something you get for free? People with a lot of disposable income (older) might not care, and spend anyway, but to a young person that's a "no-brainer", no matter if we talk those who prefer to do savings for when the pension system will collapse, or those who prefer to have enough cash to join their social circle on a holiday in summer.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Fabulin said:


> It's a simple market factor. Why pay for something you get for free?


I don't quite understand that comment/question. I don't think young people generally go around stealing their music these days: paying for subscription services seems reasonably standard fare and the dangers of torrenting the wrong thing mean that will always be a risky proposition.

But I do get that paying for a poor experience (bad acoustics, bad sight-lines, bad audience behaviours) isn't going to endear concert-going to anyone, old or young!

Concert-going has competition these days: it's no longer the only, nor the best, way of getting your music experiences.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Fabulin said:


> Everyone seems to be missing that what classical music needs is _new works_ that people will like for the same reasons they like Beethoven, Mozart, Mendelssohn & Co.
> 
> John Williams and Alma Deutscher fill halls allright, and the average age of attendees is 15-20 years lower (or so I heard)
> 
> As long as it's "about performers" of old music, we are talking state-sponsored museums and exhibitions.


But people are making new works. They just haven't become "classics" yet (i.e., "classical" music). New pieces need time to solidify their place in the repertoire.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I don't quite understand that comment/question. I don't think young people generally go around stealing their music these days: paying for subscription services seems reasonably standard fare and the dangers of torrenting the wrong thing mean that will always be a risky proposition.
> 
> But I do get that paying for a poor experience (bad acoustics, bad sight-lines, bad audience behaviours) isn't going to endear concert-going to anyone, old or young!
> 
> Concert-going has competition these days: it's no longer the only, nor the best, way of getting your music experiences.


But a live concert is much different from listening to a recording. If the performance is good, a live concert makes these annoyances (which have not been intolerable when and if they do occur in my experience) seem insignificant. Even if I have a recording of my favorite work performed by some of the greatest recorded artists in excellent sound, that doesn't take away from the thrill of a live performance.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

adriesba said:


> But a live concert is much different from listening to a recording. If the performance is good, a live concert makes these annoyances (which have not been intolerable when and if they do occur in my experience) seem insignificant. Even if I have a recording of my favorite work performed by some of the greatest recorded artists in excellent sound, that doesn't take away from* the thrill of a live performance.*


Yes, one of the concert halls saving graces and to a lesser extent, live recordings on youtube.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I edited my comment to add that a concert in Aldeburgh was packed, too. Not exactly megaopolis central.
> 
> Concerts I attend in Nottingham are also pretty well attended, though the audience does generally appear near-mummified.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I reckon that has been a problem for as long as there have been other genres. That is why I say that perhaps classical music and classical music concerts are continually an experience of older people and a few young people who choose not to be swayed by the popular mentality for whatever reason.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

adriesba said:


> But a live concert is much different from listening to a recording. If the performance is good, a live concert makes these annoyances (which have not been intolerable when and if they do occur in my experience) seem insignificant. Even if I have a recording of my favorite work performed by some of the greatest recorded artists in excellent sound, that doesn't take away from the thrill of a live performance.


Hmm.

Anything in Aldeburgh, I'll go to, because it's Aldeburgh. Proms are a special event, so I'll make an effort to go to them, too. And I've booked up two years ahead of time for a Leipzig concert of Mahler. So I'm not completely ruling concert-going out!

But my threshold of tolerance must be pretty low: I'd prefer a CD to a concert 99 times out of a 100, I think.

I'm just not buying into the 'unless we get young people in, we're doomed!' school of thought on the matter. Back in the 1950s, let's say, they were pretty much the only way of getting pristine sound experiences, with the "gramophone" generally not coming close. But those days are behind us: concerts simply aren't the main way people get their music 'fix' anymore. If they die, they die... and I doubt anyone will care. And if they do care, they won't die. I think they're a problem that will sort itself out, basically. Meanwhile, we don't need to go around getting all trendy and elaborate trying to lure in an audience that don't currently feel the need to attend, especially if doing so is likely to frighten off the oldies who are currently doing the paying and turning up!


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I don't quite understand that comment/question. *I don't think young people generally go around stealing their music *these days: paying for subscription services seems reasonably standard fare and the dangers of torrenting the wrong thing mean that will always be a risky proposition.
> 
> But I do get that paying for a poor experience (bad acoustics, bad sight-lines, bad audience behaviours) isn't going to endear concert-going to anyone, old or young!
> 
> Concert-going has competition these days: it's no longer the only, nor the best, way of getting your music experiences.


You have an assumption that general audience even wants those files. They just listen on Youtube and can't really tell what is the whole fuss about. Some pay for subscription services, but those 10 bucks on Spotify do not go to their local symphony orchestra...


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

Fabulin said:


> Everyone seems to be missing that what classical music needs is _new works_ that people will like for the same reasons they like Beethoven, Mozart, Mendelssohn & Co.
> 
> John Williams and Alma Deutscher fill halls allright, and the average age of attendees is 15-20 years lower (or so I heard)
> 
> As long as it's "about performers" of old music, we are talking state-sponsored museums and exhibitions.


Using another analogy; I don't think the Royal Shakespeare Company at Stratford has trouble filling venues with 'museum' plays.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Concert-going has competition these days: it's no longer the only, nor the best, way of getting your music experiences._

I think it is true that the free or nothing mantra has affected concerts as well as books, CDs, downloads and just about everything else in life. I think this is why many entertainment venues give purchasers something besides the main course. It just isn't enough anymore.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

I was trying to avoid Fabulin's reference to Alma Deutscher but is the desire to hear re-hashed classical music part of the problem for a concert hall? Keeping it's acoustics in a sort of musical stagnation, a state of preserve....or is it?...uh oh...I'm running for cover.


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

Fabulin said:


> That would require significant investments, and before they would pay off, we would be in the great unknown, in the 2040s or 2050s. I think you would be right if this solution was implemented ca. 2000, and all concert halls built since then were variety establishments. I'm not sure now.
> 
> So reports Business Insider:


This is a very alarming statistic about shopping malls. People are buying online but that's OK if you already know what you want. Two decades ago my sister was friendly with an Estee Lauder executive in Sydney and this woman said 'the big retail stores will soon be finished'.

Ergo, I wonder if the same will apply to big concert venues. Sydney Opera House uses a variety of cultural pursuits to fill its auditoriums and pay the rent. Rock concerts in the forecourt, conventions and lectures in the opera theatre, and so forth. It fills me with dread that the reason for its build in the first place is being shoved increasingly into the background. But I cannot change this and I don't have the energy anyway at my age.

The Elb Philharmonie in Hamburg has only been completed within the last 4 or so years at the cost of many many millions of Euro. It has apartments and presumably shopping malls within it. Perhaps that is the answer; multiplexes with diverse spaces. So, larold, you may be onto something.


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> The last Proms concert I went to was packed, and not just with oldies like me. For a Sibelius violin concerto, which I don't think is exactly block-buster material as far as marketing is concerned.
> 
> Is there really a problem?
> 
> ...


There really is a problem, and the quote I used to start this discussion was used to highlight this.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Christabel said:


> This is a very alarming statistic about shopping malls. People are buying online but that's OK if you already know what you want. Two decades ago my sister was friendly with an Estee Lauder executive in Sydney and this woman said 'the big retail stores will soon be finished'.
> 
> Ergo, I wonder if the same will apply to big concert venues. Sydney Opera House uses a variety of cultural pursuits to fill its auditoriums and pay the rent. Rock concerts in the forecourt, conventions and lectures in the opera theatre, and so forth. It fills me with dread that the reason for its build in the first place is being shoved increasingly into the background. But I cannot change this and I don't have the energy anyway at my age.
> 
> The Elb Philharmonie in Hamburg has only been completed within the last 4 or so years at the cost of many many millions of Euro. It has apartments and presumably shopping malls within it. Perhaps that is the answer; multiplexes with diverse spaces. So, larold, you may be onto something.


...even our local church does coffee 'n cakes mornings. AB will know about the Festival Hall which has a great space and they utilise it well with extra-musical activity.


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

adriesba said:


> But a live concert is much different from listening to a recording. If the performance is good, a live concert makes these annoyances (which have not been intolerable when and if they do occur in my experience) seem insignificant. Even if I have a recording of my favorite work performed by some of the greatest recorded artists in excellent sound, that doesn't take away from the thrill of a live performance.


Totally agree with you about the thrill of a live performance; even a hardened anti-classical person would be swept up by that experience, I feel. But how to get them there in the first place - that's the trick.


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

mikeh375 said:


> ...even our local church does coffee 'n cakes mornings.


Christmas 2018 we were in Auckland and were due to have lunch with my husband's daughter and family later that day. We were staying at a huge hotel just near a little church and we went there for the Christmas morning service. Afterwards coffee and tea and home-make Christmas cake. Lovely travellers and Aucklanders to talk to as well. To tell truth, it was one of the most pleasant festive experiences we've ever had.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Christabel said:


> Christmas 2018 we were in Auckland and were due to have lunch with my husband's daughter and family later that day. We were staying at a huge hotel just near a little church and we went there for the Christmas morning service. Afterwards coffee and tea and home-make Christmas cake. Lovely travellers and Aucklanders to talk to as well. To tell truth, it was one of the most pleasant festive experiences we've ever had.


I hope the music was live Christabel.....


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

mikeh375 said:


> I hope the music was live Christabel.....


The congregation all sang the Christmas carols, accompanied by the organ. The old favourites we grew up with and which you seldom hear these days. After the service had finished a woman played a showpiece on the organ; she was an amateur but I considered her very capable indeed.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

...............................................


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Christabel said:


> There really is a problem, and the quote I used to start this discussion was used to highlight this.


Well, the _specific_ quote you used said that a conductor in Western Australia said that there was a "disastrous" problem because his audience was elderly and in the at-risk category for Covid-19.

Hang on. Australia... that's the country in which a grand total of about 103 people have died from Covid-19. And just 9 of those were in Western Australia.

So, to me, this sounds like making a mountain out of a mole-hill in the specific context of Australia.

And, more generally, I think you're quoting a member of a musical elite currently undergoing a transient problem (i.e., concerts cancelled for social distancing reasons) and wondering whether that means his long term income stream is under threat.

Now it may be. But (in my view) it's not because his audience is elderly but because concert-going is an expensive proposition that isn't, in many ways, as good and convenient a means of getting your classical music as clicking on a subscription website's play button. The immediacy of a subscription service and its relative cheapness are the threats to his income stream, not the average age of his audience.

Which boils down to me thinking that we *don't* suddenly have to start thinking of ways of getting younger audiences into the concert hall. They'll get there in due time, when they're a lot older, with money to spend and a need to get a social experience out of their music listening.


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## rice (Mar 23, 2017)

Young listeners can choose from:
1. Expensive premium seat of a concert which the program may not be favorable
2. A couple of albums of their desired music which they can listen to repeatedly. 
With limited money it's not a difficult decision to make.

There are cheaper seats but I'd argue it could be a worse experience than watching a video online.
Terrible acoustics plus the performers so far away that they're barely distinguisable. 
I wonder how many first time concert-goer bought those seats and unimpressed so they don't go again.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I think that classical music will be fine, although it is likely to be a serious problem for performers. There probably just isn't going to be a big demand for live performance.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

adriesba said:


> Ah, yes. I agree with the highlighted point.


Me too. Nothing wrong with acknowledging that Beethoven was great, but the smaller city orchestra in my former hometown plays about 5 classical concerts a year, and literally 3 of those feature a Beethoven symphony - no joke. What's the point? In my experience "pops" concerts draw a heck of a lot more people. I guess we could chalk it up to people preferring "lighter," more easily digestable music that doesn't require as much personal engagement. But surely there must be another reason.


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## Sequentia (Nov 23, 2011)

Before we start putting forward ideas on how to "save" classical music, are we sure we need a radical change in its treatment and presentation to take place? People have been predicting the "death" of classical music for decades, yet here we are. This year, Sorabji's _Sequentia cyclica_, arguably the longest piece of music ever recorded for commercial release (excluding Wagner's and Stockhausen's opera cycles), came out on 7 CDs and has sold quite well, in spite of the constant predictions of how "nobody wants to listen to eight hours of noise by an unknown composer who will soon be forgotten and whose memory is kept alive solely by people who prioritize technical flash over musical substance". OK, this is just one example, but it's not exactly what you'd associate with a "dying" art form (and an "obsolete" format, the compact disc). I do not see orchestras going bankrupt _en masse_ and doubt that one pandemic will end their existence any more than the Spanish Flu from about a century ago did.

If you want to address classical music's image problem (which is very real), you can start by promoting 20th-century and contemporary composers more and ensure that people think of classical music as a living art form. Show that innovation, rebellion and pushing the boundaries have been vital parts of its history and made it what it is. Highlight the humanity (and the _fallibility_!) of composers, whether that means mentioning Mozart's "Leck mich im Arsch" or doing what Bernstein did, when he illustrated how Beethoven's inner struggles reflected themselves in his music. (You may not want to go as far as Taruskin does in his writings, but that will depend on your goals.)

Emphasize _musique concrète_, spectral music and other methods of composition that employ modern technologies as a part of the classical tradition, thereby showing it to be something that can be reinterpreted and serve as a source of inspiration to future generations.

Dump the jargon and do not overwhelm newcomers with information ("We have just heard Symphony No. 18, Op. 348 in B-flat major, 'The Story of a Battle', composed by Johann Albrecht von Donsdorff between 1805 and 1807, performed by the London Philharmonic under the baton of the late Sir Brian Edgar Williams"). Do away with the "classical music for relaxation" nonsense and bleeding chunks (Classic FM, I'm looking at you!). Young people spend hours binge-watching TV shows and Netflix, so I doubt hearing all of a Beethoven, Bruckner or Shostakovich symphony in one go will tax them to the extreme. Show how famous non-classical musicians today borrow from classical music (e.g. DJ Tiësto) and perform it (e.g. Metallica playing Beethoven's 5th Symphony).

Promote the political dimension of music (Rzewski, Finnissy, et al.). Young people today are widely (and rightly) perceived as a generation of activists, one that has been more politically active than perhaps any other in history. If the association of classical music with "dead white males" is a problem, this is an area to look at. There are more active (and acclaimed) female composers out there than ever before in history, so that is something to make use of.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

The music education that I see in K-12 schools in my area introduces kids to classical music along with jazz, operetta, and (in Catholic schools) liturgical music. The kids don’t get hammered with one kind of music only; they learn about the core principles of music across genres. I think this approach potentiates their ultimate appreciation of classical music. The kids who participate in band, orchestra, choir, chorus, and glee club learn to perform several genres of music, including Mozart et al. arranged appropriately for their ensembles. My kids’ high school band and orchestra concerts feature both traditional classical works and contemporary ones, especially film music. Much as my experiences as a member of school orchestras has contributed to my desire as an adult to attend live concerts, I can easily imagine current high school students choosing to attend concerts at which traditional classical music as well as contemporary (especially film) music is performed. They seem to enjoy playing and singing in their school ensembles very much, so I don’t see why they would want to cut themselves off from live performances of the types of music they learned.

Blu-ray etc. technology makes it possible to have concert hall-like experiences at home. However, it is quite a different experience to listen to and watch a concert at home in your pajamas via Blu-ray than suiting up and going to Orchestra Hall. Many people enjoy the adventure of getting out of the house, making one’s way to the concert hall, and being among the other attendees. As for the music, the live sound in the concert hall is the standard against which we usually judge electronic reproductions, despite the coughing and other disturbances. Then there’s the social interaction between the performers and the audience that just doesn’t exist outside of live concerts. What I mean is the social understanding between the musicians and the audience that, “I am playing for you and you are listening to me, right here and right now.” I think that the sense of this social interaction is just as strong in the age of smart phones as it has always been, because it is an innate human capacity to feel it and to need it. This is not unique to musical performance. The same social interaction takes place, IMV, between athletes and spectators at sports events, for example. I don’t foresee the demise of live concerts (of whatever musical genre) any more than I do of professional sports events.

My parents took me with to classical music concerts when I was growing up, and I do the same with my children. Like me at their ages, they are variously alert, sleepy, interested, bored, crabby, hungry, amused, entertained, and so forth. I don’t like stock phrases, but in this case one comes to mind: “It’s all good.” Overall, they’d rather go with me to Ravinia than stay home and play Minecraft because it’s an adventure and most kids like adventures. The concert-going adventures that I had as a kid could have come to a screeching halt when I went to college and graduate school had it not been for the availability of free or very inexpensive options available to students. Those are important and as far as I know, are continuing. I imagine I would have lost my taste for live music had I been cut off from it for a few years. I could have just said to myself, “I’ll just listen to music on the radio and on recordings, the concerts are way too expensive.” Then by the time I had enough disposable income to buy tickets to concerts, I wouldn’t have been interested anymore.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Boy have I enjoyed all these comments. A lot to think about. I think the popularity of classical is about the same now as it was 50 years ago when I was getting into seriously. It's always been minority interest. Is it waning? Probably. The death of the concert hall was something Glenn Gould talked about 60 years ago - in the future we'd all be consuming music via records. He couldn't imagine the high quality video and streaming possibilities we now take for granted. 

And if we go back 60 years ago the musical landscape was totally different. The big cities had their great orchestras, but in smaller towns, especially in the western US, orchestras were essentially nonexistent. If you wanted to hear live classical you took a trip to Chicago, St Louis, Cleveland...wherever. But nowadays it seems every city has a symphony - need it or not. Maybe there are just too many orchestras (I know there are too many conductors!). And some of those orchestras don't sound so good. A school takes their students to hear the annual Kids Concert and it sounds like hell - I'm concerned that it will turn students off for good. I clearly remember the first professional concert I ever attended at age 13: Stockholm Philharmonic, Mahler 5th, Antal Dorati conducting. What a thrilling sound! So exciting to hear that the local community orchestra couldn't hold my interest any longer. 

People today want a fuller experience: bars, restaurants, etc. Some orchestras are doing that. Does it help? I don't know. Some try matinee concerts, or even later evening. LA Phil used to have casual Fridays. None of that will bring in the younger crowd. But there are things that will. In recent years, the concerts that have been absolutely packed were:

1. Lord of the Rings (but now that may be out of style)
2. Video Games Live
3. Wizard of Oz 
4. Star Wars movies with live orchestra
5. Harry Potter movies with live orchestra

Smaller, less professional orchestras can't afford those shows, and likely can't play them either. But if orchestras keep on playing the same, tired, worn-out repertoire from the 18th and 19th centuries, they're going to die because they are no longer relevant. Sadly, there are too few orchestra boards, managers, players and conductors who have figured this out.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Sequentia said:


> Before we start putting forward ideas on how to "save" classical music, are we sure we need a radical change in its treatment and presentation to take place? People have been predicting the "death" of classical music for decades, yet here we are.


CM is never going to die as a niche, but I want it to go back to the '60s, when every kid wanted to hear this "Stockhausen" guy that had made his way onto a Beatles cover. Also, we _do not_ need to write reactionary music to save CM. Hip-hop is the music of today, and, like punk music of the '70s, one of its defining features is anger-anger over systematic racism, anger over the government, etc; the kids that listen to hip-hop would revel in the pounding primitivism of Xenakis' orchestral and percussion works.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I think this comes down to largely how the person has grown up. I'm a young person (under 25), half Estonian and half Finnish. I haven't grown up in a musical family, haven't learnt any instruments or had any other kind of musical training. I discovered classical music almost by accident when I wanted to listen to some music while studying but couldn't listen to pop music as that has lyrics. As the time went by I became absolutely fanatical about classical music, especially opera. I think one of the most important factors is that I was still thoroughly acquainted with Western classical music tradition since young age thanks to our national school system. Probably the fact that Estonia is a very small country means that we take pride in everything we can - in this case, all three Järvis, Pärt, Tubin etc. I really enjoy going to live concerts, as this is an entirely different experience from listening to a recording. I remember listening Schiff's solo piano concert last year - never before had I enjoyed solo piano nearly as much! Also, in Estonia the student tickets are half the original price and so I can always buy the best seats when going to an opera for a very reasonable price. I think the main problem is just that there are less young people who like classical or who have ever actually experienced it, it's not about the concert halls themselves but classical music in general.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

mikeh375 said:


> I myself wouldn't blame the conservatories for advocating and training brilliance in musicianship, it is their duty to prepare students for the reality of trying to get work as a player post graduation. If anything, one can easily point the finger at Liszt or Paganini if one perceives a problem with brilliance in performance. ...


I would disagree. Liszt and Paganini were antithetical to the note-perfect by-rote conservatory mindset, which is about absolute academic fidelity to the score and nothing dangerously spontaneous or personal. What that serves to do is produce musicians who sound not all that different from each other. I don't think it's a coincidence either that the rise of the conservatory more or less coincided with the decline in improvisational skill.


Sequentia said:


> ...
> Promote the political dimension of music (Rzewski, Finnissy, et al.). Young people today are widely (and rightly) perceived as a generation of activists, one that has been more politically active than perhaps any other in history. If the association of classical music with "dead white males" is a problem, this is an area to look at. There are more active (and acclaimed) female composers out there than ever before in history, so that is something to make use of.


There are many interesting ideas in that post, but I would strongly disagree with that. The politicization of *every* aspect of life is one thing that I am sick and tired to death of, and I don't think I'm alone in that. One of the reasons for artistic decline may be the turning of everything into leftish "activist" political pamphleteering and sermonizing. YMMV.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Portamento said:


> CM is never going to die as a niche, but I want it to go back to the '60s, when every kid wanted to hear this "Stockhausen" guy that had made his way onto a Beatles cover. Also, we _do not_ need to write reactionary music to save CM. Hip-hop is the music of today, and, like punk music of the '70s, one of its defining features is anger-anger over systematic racism, anger over the government, etc; the kids that listen to hip-hop would revel in the pounding primitivism of Xenakis' orchestral and percussion works.


By the way, hip-hop is itself already stale and clichéd having been around for decades now. Apart from its musical worth I think it's as much a big "f*** you" as it is anything. That and punk are ultimately nihilistic, and if you try to get away from the nihilistic it's just going to be the aforementioned political pamphleteering. I don't see how that's a way forward when we're already drowning in it.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

consuono said:


> I would disagree. Liszt and Paganini were antithetical to the *note-perfect by-rote conservatory mindset, which is about absolute academic fidelity to the score and nothing dangerously spontaneous or personal.* What that serves to do is produce musicians who sound not all that different from each other. I don't think it's a coincidence either that the rise of the conservatory more or less coincided with the decline in improvisational skill.


Nothing could have been further from the truth in my experience at any rate. It was (and probably still is), all about the music and its expression and encouragement of interpretation. The technical aspect is the means to an end, the mastery of which is the bare minimum needed to be able to express oneself, _especially_ in all one's uniqueness. That is what my Alma Mater (and most others I suspect) was all about. Besides, as a player becomes more proficient, the music speaks more clearly to them and they, as a result find their own ways to interpret, because they now can.

Perhaps our difference of opinion here is more related to the fact that the real world market just isn't big enough to cater for the thousands of good to excellent players who are pumped out every year from institutes across the world. I know of several fantastic (and individual I hasten to add), performers who left music altogether, after 10+ years of training in order to make a living.
I do perceive the issue of a saturated market a problem, having seen the distress that falling by the wayside after so much work and promise can do to youngsters.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> Boy have I enjoyed all these comments. A lot to think about. I think the popularity of classical is about the same now as it was 50 years ago when I was getting into seriously. It's always been minority interest. Is it waning? Probably. The death of the concert hall was something Glenn Gould talked about 60 years ago - in the future we'd all be consuming music via records. He couldn't imagine the high quality video and streaming possibilities we now take for granted.
> 
> And if we go back 60 years ago the musical landscape was totally different. The big cities had their great orchestras, but in smaller towns, especially in the western US, orchestras were essentially nonexistent. If you wanted to hear live classical you took a trip to Chicago, St Louis, Cleveland...wherever. But nowadays it seems every city has a symphony - need it or not. Maybe there are just too many orchestras (I know there are too many conductors!). And some of those orchestras don't sound so good. A school takes their students to hear the annual Kids Concert and it sounds like hell - I'm concerned that it will turn students off for good. I clearly remember the first professional concert I ever attended at age 13: Stockholm Philharmonic, Mahler 5th, Antal Dorati conducting. What a thrilling sound! So exciting to hear that the local community orchestra couldn't hold my interest any longer.
> 
> ...


I agree with this except the last paragraph. It's called classical music because it recognizes the classics. Unlike much popular music, classical pieces have staying power. No matter how many times I hear a Beethoven symphony, it doesn't get old. Even little excerpts don't become boring. No matter how many times I listen to the _Tannhäuser _overture, it does not cease to be one of the most beautiful, profound, colorful orchestral pieces I've ever heard. That's just fourteen or so minutes, yet it is not worn out at all. In fact, I prefer those fourteen minutes to all music I have heard composed in the last 70 years, even over _Star Wars _soundtracks which I adore. And this is coming from a 20-year-old. I think you see more people coming to those concerts you mentioned because that is all they are familiar with. Don't get me wrong, I think concerts of movie music and such are fun and important for getting people interested (I was hoping to go to a _Star Wars _concert before it got canceled because of COVID-19). I think people might simply be lacking exposure to much classical music.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

mikeh375 said:


> Nothing could have been further from the truth in my experience at any rate. It was (and probably still is), all about the music and its expression and encouragement of interpretation. The technical aspect is the means to an end, the mastery of which is the bare minimum needed to be able to express oneself, _especially_ in all one's uniqueness. That is what my Alma Mater (and most others I suspect) was all about. Besides, as a player becomes more proficient, the music speaks more clearly to them and they, as a result find their own ways to interpret, because they now can.
> ...


I respect your opinion, but to be honest I just don't hear this uniqueness often enough. I think musicians want too much to sound like this one or that one, which is also probably a legacy of the recording. But there's also no question that the market does have a performer glut, especially among players of the traditionally "important" instruments.

There's another thing which isn't discussed much, and I think it's the "Zeitgeist" and its postmodern or post-postmodern orientation. That's the water most of us fish have been swimming in for at least a couple of generations now, and I think it's rot.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> People today want a fuller experience: bars, restaurants, etc. Some orchestras are doing that. Does it help? I don't know. Some try matinee concerts, or even later evening. LA Phil used to have casual Fridays. None of that will bring in the younger crowd. But there are things that will. In recent years, the concerts that have been absolutely packed were:
> 
> 1. Lord of the Rings (but now that may be out of style)
> 2. Video Games Live
> ...


It's depressing to think that the above music and similar type fare is the future of the concert hall.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

consuono said:


> *I respect your opinion*, but to be honest I just don't hear this uniqueness often enough. I think musicians want too much to sound like this one or that one, which is also probably a legacy of the recording. But there's also no question that the market does have a performer glut, especially among players of the traditionally "important" instruments.
> 
> There's another thing which isn't discussed much, and I think it's the "Zeitgeist" and its postmodern or post-postmodern orientation. That's the water most of us fish have been swimming in for at least a couple of generations now, and I think it's rot.


And I yours consuono...
I do get the 'clone' idea and there is something in it for sure, I'm just not sure it's the _entire_ fault of the conservatories. I also believe that _somewhere_ along the line, false hope is instilled into some students.

Oh yes, I also get and like the swimming in water metaphor. You know what happens to water if it isn't changed right? - stagnation.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

consuono said:


> I would disagree. Liszt and Paganini were antithetical to the note-perfect by-rote conservatory mindset, which is about absolute academic fidelity to the score and nothing dangerously spontaneous or personal. What that serves to do is produce musicians who sound not all that different from each other. I don't think it's a coincidence either that the rise of the conservatory more or less coincided with the decline in improvisational skill.
> There are many interesting ideas in that post, but I would strongly disagree with that. *The politicization of *every* aspect of life is one thing that I am sick and tired to death of, and I don't think I'm alone in that.* One of the reasons for artistic decline may be the turning of everything into leftish "activist" political pamphleteering and sermonizing. YMMV.


Exactly, I heartily agree! Enough political shenanigans! I want to listen to music to ESCAPE that sort of thing!


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

annaw said:


> I think this comes down to largely how the person has grown up. I'm a young person (under 25), half Estonian and half Finnish. I haven't grown up in a musical family, haven't learnt any instruments or had any other kind of musical training. I discovered classical music almost by accident when I wanted to listen to some music while studying but couldn't listen to pop music as that has lyrics. As the time went by I became absolutely fanatical about classical music, especially opera. I think one of the most important factors is that I was still thoroughly acquainted with Western classical music tradition since young age thanks to our national school system. Probably the fact that Estonia is a very small country means that we take pride in everything we can - in this case, all three Järvis, Pärt, Tubin etc. I really enjoy going to live concerts, as this is an entirely different experience from listening to a recording. I remember listening Schiff's solo piano concert last year - never before had I enjoyed solo piano nearly as much! Also, in Estonia the student tickets are half the original price and so I can always buy the best seats when going to an opera for a very reasonable price. *I think the main problem is just that there are less young people who like classical or who have ever actually experienced it, it's not about the concert halls themselves but classical music in general.*


Yes! I very much agree! If one thinks that classical concerts are declining because of recordings and videos, they should ask themselves if popular music concerts have been declining. Aside from what COVID-19 is doing to the world right now, I don't think the concerts themselves are declining. No recording or video can truly substitute for the experience of a live concert. I think that as long as people like a genre of music, they will go to the concerts. Any decline in classical music concerts is likely due to people not coming because they simply do not know what they are missing.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

adriesba said:


> No recording or video can truly substitute for the experience of a live concert. I think that as long as people like a genre of music, they will go to the concerts. Any decline in classical music concerts is likely due to people not coming because they simply do not know what they are missing.


I'm going to disagree with that. I think a recording will give you what the composer intended -music- devoid of the nonsense that crowds of people bring along with them. So that's for starters. I think recordings are a _purer_ form of music than a concert.

I also think you need to ask yourself how central concerts are to the 'western classical tradition'. If you take a broad view, they are an aberration. Byrd didn't go to concerts. I don't think Bach did either. But yes, Beethoven did. In previous centuries, music was the preserve of a 'house orchestra' paid for by some nobleman with a point to prove -to his fellow nobles. Before that, it was some cleric with an axe to grind.

Concerts are really a product of the middle class with some cash to spend ...and no hardware with which to produce music otherwise. As such, they are indeed an aberation from centuries of non-concert music performance tradition. And I, for one, would not cry a tear if they disappeared.

But if you are concerned about their future, I think you need to have a word with Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates or Elon Musk. We need some 21st century 'enlightened nobles' who will bestow a paid-for musical establishment on the rest of us.

As to whether audience decline is because people 'don't know what they're missing'. Consider: the last concert I went to in Aldeburgh. There was a hotel to pay for (extremely cheap, I hasten to add). And some cab rides. And an evening meal (which wasn't cheap, being the posh restaurant right next door to the concert hall). And the tickets (which were the cheapest!). And the cheap wine during the interval wasn't actually cheap to buy!! For the two of us, the entire experience was about £350, for something that amounted to one night's entertainment. I could buy a week in Gdansk for that sort of cash!

Short version: Concerts are expensive! And that's why people in general, not just young people, can't afford the luxury, but will sign up with Spotify instead. And with my long perspective glasses on, I don't think that's a problem.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

consuono said:


> By the way, hip-hop is itself already stale and clichéd having been around for decades now. Apart from its musical worth I think it's as much a big "f*** you" as it is anything. That and punk are ultimately nihilistic, and if you try to get away from the nihilistic it's just going to be the aforementioned political pamphleteering. I don't see how that's a way forward when we're already drowning in it.


Consequences of the over-commercialized world we find ourselves in. It's not all bad, but you have to know where to look.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

mikeh375 said:


> And I yours consuono...
> I do get the 'clone' idea and there is something in it for sure, I'm just not sure it's the _entire_ fault of the conservatories. I also believe that _somewhere_ along the line, false hope is instilled into some students.
> 
> Oh yes, I also get and like the swimming in water metaphor. You know what happens to water if it isn't changed right? - stagnation.


I also want to emphasize that I'm not belittling conservatories or those who were educated in them. I admire those who put in the work and sometimes in retrospect I wish I had gone. I just think that as with post-secondary education in general there's some bad with the good.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I'm going to disagree with that. I think a recording will give you what the composer intended -music- devoid of the nonsense that crowds of people bring along with them. So that's for starters. I think recordings are a _purer_ form of music than a concert.
> 
> I also think you need to ask yourself how central concerts are to the 'western classical tradition'. If you take a broad view, they are an aberration. Byrd didn't go to concerts. I don't think Bach did either. But yes, Beethoven did. In previous centuries, music was the preserve of a 'house orchestra' paid for by some nobleman with a point to prove -to his fellow nobles. Before that, it was some cleric with an axe to grind.
> 
> ...


I think it can be organised differently, I can get a great concert experience for 25€, yes, without wine and using public transportation but it's still great (I get your point though!). At the Schiff's concert I mentioned I ended up standing the whole time, because I bought the tickets quite last minute and found an utterly amazing place with a great view, where I could stand, instead of the cheap seats where I could only see the piano. Of course that's certainly not possible everywhere and I was rather lucky but I didn't see it as a too great sacrifice for the sake of *seeing* Schiff play. I would love to experience a concert the way you describe it though! It's a different case with opera, while I mostly listen to recordings for the sake of great singing, the whole thing can only be experienced in a concert hall. There're many great singers, for example Del Monaco and Nilsson, who were said to sound even better live because their voices were difficult to record (probably because they were both tremendously huge). I would be more than willing to hear MDM sing live even if I had a nosebleed seat instead of just listening to a recording.


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> Well, the _specific_ quote you used said that a conductor in Western Australia said that there was a "disastrous" problem because his audience was elderly and in the at-risk category for Covid-19.
> 
> Hang on. Australia... that's the country in which a grand total of about 103 people have died from Covid-19. And just 9 of those were in Western Australia.
> 
> ...


(The article went on to suggest that this problem was a world-wide one; I couldn't post the whole essay as a link because it's behind a paywall and it would have been too much writing in this board's format to digest if I had cut and pasted.)

Another contributor in this discussion has already highlighted the well-known plight of some major American orchestras and if you read Lebrecht's blog "Slipped Disc" you'll see that frequently discussed. It is a problem and it isn't going away.


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

rice said:


> Young listeners can choose from:
> 1. Expensive premium seat of a concert which the program may not be favorable
> 2. A couple of albums of their desired music which they can listen to repeatedly.
> With limited money it's not a difficult decision to make.
> ...


Students and others in Vienna used to be able to pay 10Euro and stand at the rear of the 'ground floor'. And at the opera there's standing room way up top; they'd mark out their spots with scarves or other person items if they needed to move from their spot during the break. It's an accepted protocol and everybody seems to adhere to it. In short, Vienna has a long history of providing means for people who cannot afford the more expensive tickets. When I was there, 5 years ago, the average price of a ticket was 110 Euro!! That is, if you wanted a reasonable seat. The Musikverein is really too small a venue now and paying less than 100 Euro for a seat comes with problems; like the woman on my left on the front row of the Parterre Loge (Links) who leaned forward and nobody else up the row could see the orchestra when she did this!!!

It can most certainly be an expensive exercise. There's no doubt about that.


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Me too. Nothing wrong with acknowledging that Beethoven was great, but the smaller city orchestra in my former hometown plays about 5 classical concerts a year, and literally 3 of those feature a Beethoven symphony - no joke. What's the point? In my experience "pops" concerts draw a heck of a lot more people. I guess we could chalk it up to people preferring "lighter," more easily digestable music that doesn't require as much personal engagement. But surely there must be another reason.


This would most certainly explain the popularity of Andre Rieu; he garners audiences in their many thousands and, from what I've seen, they really love this music. Rieu has no trouble drawing his audiences but I have noticed these are people mostly of middle age, with some younger couples in that mix. You mention "easily digestible"; that of course, is a problem. The staying power required for a 50+ minute symphony or a Bach Passion isn't for everybody. Perhaps that's why older people are drawn to it; this music is something they've matured into and their life experiences find something special in the musical narrative and means of expression. But how does that explain my own interest in these forms as a teenager? It doesn't because I speak generally.

All I know is that, in my country at least, schools (except for the expensive private sector) have largely turned their backs on western classical music, save for paying lip service. Some people want their children learning the violin or piano because they think it makes them 'civilized' or sophisticated - like the _parvenus_ who live over the road from me!! But you just cannot send them to lessons and leave it at that; there have to be musical values in the home - though, even then, that isn't always guaranteed to move somebody into serious music.

Likely teens and 20-somethings would joke if anybody suggested going to a recital or concert.

The Melbourne Symphony Orchestra has been performing more popular orchestral music and backing well known singers for some time now in an attempt to make it more viable. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this; in fact, if the state subsidizes orchestras it becomes their obligation, in my opinion.


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> Boy have I enjoyed all these comments. A lot to think about. I think the popularity of classical is about the same now as it was 50 years ago when I was getting into seriously. It's always been minority interest. Is it waning? Probably. The death of the concert hall was something Glenn Gould talked about 60 years ago - in the future we'd all be consuming music via records. He couldn't imagine the high quality video and streaming possibilities we now take for granted.
> 
> And if we go back 60 years ago the musical landscape was totally different. The big cities had their great orchestras, but in smaller towns, especially in the western US, orchestras were essentially nonexistent. If you wanted to hear live classical you took a trip to Chicago, St Louis, Cleveland...wherever. But nowadays it seems every city has a symphony - need it or not. Maybe there are just too many orchestras (I know there are too many conductors!). And some of those orchestras don't sound so good. A school takes their students to hear the annual Kids Concert and it sounds like hell - I'm concerned that it will turn students off for good. I clearly remember the first professional concert I ever attended at age 13: Stockholm Philharmonic, Mahler 5th, Antal Dorati conducting. What a thrilling sound! So exciting to hear that the local community orchestra couldn't hold my interest any longer.
> 
> ...


One of many terribly interesting comments on this topic. You make a lot of sense. I have watched old recordings of Bernstein with the NYPO and his tremendous pedagogical skill; particularly the one on Hindemith's "Mathis der Maler". The kids were sitting in that audience, mostly very young, wonderfully engaged and quiet with that amazing man and his way of engaging with people. Wynton Marsalis also is a musical pedagogue who holds informal concerts for people of all ages, teaching them about jazz.

This is what we need!! Professionals out there selling the product, else it will languish in perpetuity. I say again, Asian nations have taken our musical heritage with both hands and people of all ages attend concerts. Look at this, from the 1980s, in Japan!! The first link; the Japanese people regarded Kleiber as a god!!

https://slippedisc.com/2020/01/new-carlos-kleiber-videos-online/


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## Guest (May 24, 2020)

_There are many interesting ideas in that post, but I would strongly disagree with that. The politicization of *every* aspect of life is one thing that I am sick and tired to death of, and I don't think I'm alone in that. One of the reasons for artistic decline may be the turning of everything into leftish "activist" political pamphleteering and sermonizing._

You've really nailed this alright, *consuono*; I couldn't agree more. It IS a big problem. My response is "don't call us; we'll call you"!! And I speak to all my grandchildren about how to develop their own independent thinking, especially as they are mercilessly propagandized in our state education system.

When I'm over in Perth I've played classical music on my son's car radio. The eldest grandchild (10) asked after the first hearing, "is this what you call classical music?". It reminded me of those famous lines asking exactly the same question by Marilyn Monroe in "*Seven Year Itch* and followed by her own observation after Tom Ewell confirmed that it was"....... "I can tell because it's got no vocal"!!!


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Christabel said:


> _There are many interesting ideas in that post, but I would strongly disagree with that. The politicization of *every* aspect of life is one thing that I am sick and tired to death of, and I don't think I'm alone in that. One of the reasons for artistic decline may be the turning of everything into leftish "activist" political pamphleteering and sermonizing._
> 
> You've really nailed this alright, *consuono*; I couldn't agree more. It IS a big problem. My response is "don't call us; we'll call you"!! And I speak to all my grandchildren about how to develop their own independent thinking, especially as they are mercilessly propagandized in our state education system.
> ...


What's ironic about it is that while those who practice such think it's "cutting edge", it's really just the same old "shock the bourgeoisie, artist as magnificent rebellious trailblazer" mindset that goes back at least to Baudelaire and maybe to Beethoven. Shock isn't possible anymore unless you want to delve into things that just about all of us hold to be "immoral", however you want to define that. The bourgeoisie has pretty much caught up with Baudelaire. The "against the grain artists" became and represent the Establishment mindset, and the rebels have essentially the same politics and philosophical outlook as the media complex as a whole. They're not rebels at all. A work like the Mass in B minor or Missa solemnis produced today is what would be considered "subversive" or "fringe".


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## Guest (May 25, 2020)

consuono said:


> What's ironic about it is that while those who practice such think it's "cutting edge", it's really just the same old "shock the bourgeoisie, artist as magnificent rebellious trailblazer" mindset that goes back at least to Baudelaire and maybe to Beethoven. Shock isn't possible anymore unless you want to delve into things that just about all of us hold to be "immoral", however you want to define that. The bourgeoisie has pretty much caught up with Baudelaire. The "against the grain artists" became and represent the Establishment mindset, and the rebels have essentially the same politics and philosophical outlook as the media complex as a whole. They're not rebels at all. A work like the Mass in B minor or Missa solemnis produced today is what would be considered "subversive" or "fringe".


I agree with some of this but am unsure what you mean by "immoral" as that has always been around and one person's 'immoral' is another person's 'right' and 'entitlement'. The 'against the grain artists' are largely a thing of the past; think of Beethoven and his "Aufklärung" ideas, which he tried to incorporate into his musical aesthetic. He became interested in Enlightenment thinking when still living in Bonn up until the 1790s. But even that had its limits and naivete; his admiration for Napoleon was quickly soured in the famous deletion of the dedication of Symphony #3. Many people of more politically savvy mindset at the time would have been very wary of Napoleon right from the beginning!! This could be the subject of a separate discussion altogether.

I don't agree with your comments about Missa Solemnis or Mass in B Minor. First of all, these works couldn't be produced today because, well, THOSE works already exist. Composers still create religious works (Arvo Part, Penderecki et al), if that's what you're driving at.

Basically what I think you're saying is that (and I'm being colloquial) 'the more things change the more they remain the same'. Anyway, 'radicals' and 'concert hall' seems paradoxical to me.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Christabel said:


> I agree with some of this but am unsure what you mean by "immoral" as that has always been around and one person's 'immoral' is another person's 'right' and 'entitlement'. The 'against the grain artists' are largely a thing of the past; think of Beethoven and his "Aufklärung" ideas, which he tried to incorporate into his musical aesthetic. He became interested in Enlightenment thinking when still living in Bonn up until the 1790s. But even that had its limits and naivete; his admiration for Napoleon was quickly soured in the famous deletion of the dedication of Symphony #3. Many people of more politically savvy mindset at the time would have been very wary of Napoleon right from the beginning!! This could be the subject of a separate discussion altogether.


I think there's a fair consensus that things like murder, rape, robbery, torture and child molestation are "immoral". Those are pretty much the only shocks available anymore, and even then we've had a fair number of depictions in film over the past 60 years. Artistic advancement became based on how you could push through taboos and be "groundbreaking": "this great film/book/play broke down the barriers on what sexual activity/violence/obscenity could be shown/written about..." That has even become passé.



> I don't agree with your comments about Missa Solemnis or Mass in B Minor. First of all, these works couldn't be produced today because, well, THOSE works already exist. Composers still create religious works (Arvo Part, Penderecki et al), if that's what you're driving at.


No, the mindset that produced works like that is no longer the dominant one, if it even exists at all. Interesting though that you would point out two *Eastern* European composers. Messiaen, Poulenc and perhaps Britten are the last I can think of who produced genuine religious expression among Western composers. The mindset became consumed with advancing political and philosophical convictions that as a sort of alternate religion did eventually win out and became predominant and then...


> Basically what I think you're saying is that (and I'm being colloquial) 'the more things change the more they remain the same'.


...what I'm saying is that what is self-regarding "radical" and edgy is ultimately Establishment and conformist. It's mostly a reflection of "postmodern" relativism and rejection of things like hierarchies of "value" or intrinsic worth, or even of "truth" itself. It's ultimately nihilistic and a dead end. A Baptist minister is more of a "radical" and "outsider" in today's cultural milieu than is a devotee of Foucault or Derrida. Whether that's "progress" or not is an individual judgement.


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## Guest (May 25, 2020)

I understand your meaning and I agree with much of it. The notion of 'radical' has taken on a new meaning based upon, as you said, post-modernism.

The concert and recital hall has become associated with 'dead white males' and 'white privilege', though most music-lovers don't even think on that level. I don't believe this is the reason for the state of atrophy for many concert halls and orchestras - particularly in the USA. 

A person here talked about the BBC Prom concerts and how they usually attract huge numbers, but I think that series of concerts is more of an 'institution' and part of English life. I know people who've been to those but who don't go to anything else. It's the 'vibe' - particularly on the 'Last Night' and its attendant rituals.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I'm going to disagree with that. I think a recording will give you what the composer intended -music- devoid of the nonsense that crowds of people bring along with them. So that's for starters. I think recordings are a _purer_ form of music than a concert.
> 
> I also think you need to ask yourself how central concerts are to the 'western classical tradition'. If you take a broad view, they are an aberration. Byrd didn't go to concerts. I don't think Bach did either. But yes, Beethoven did. In previous centuries, music was the preserve of a 'house orchestra' paid for by some nobleman with a point to prove -to his fellow nobles. Before that, it was some cleric with an axe to grind.
> 
> ...


Well I couldn't disagree more, lol. 

People still pack popular music concerts. Look up videos of today's popular artists in concert, and you will certainly see young people. Aren't those concerts certainly expensive?

If people are interested in the music, someone will be willing to pay for the live concert experience. I wouldn't call a popular music concert a pure listening experience either. There is much more commotion at popular concerts.

The problem boils down to lack of interest in the genre to begin with.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

adriesba said:


> Well I couldn't disagree more, lol.
> 
> People still pack popular music concerts. Look up videos of today's popular artists in concert, and you will certainly see young people. Aren't those concerts certainly expensive?
> 
> ...


I would agree with that. There's just something magical about a live performance, hearing instrumentalists and /or singers in your presence and in real time. I don't think it will ever die out entirely really.

The demographics are different though and probably always will be. A lot of us became interested in classical music at an early age. I did, not because I'm some genius or anything. It just interested from an early age and I'm grateful to my parents for getting me piano lessons. But classical is a genre that you appreciate in an ever-deeper way the older you get, so seeing a lot of gray/white/bald heads in an audience doesn't bother me that much. And after all I do have to wonder if classical music hasn't *always* been "niche", except maybe in some urban European areas.


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## Guest (May 25, 2020)

There's 'niche' and there's 'endangered'. I think we are heading into the latter territory unless managements can come up with something a bit creative to attract a steady stream of younger audiences.

This orchestra, conductor and music always attracts HUGE crowds whatever the venue: in this link it's film music!!






John Wilson is doing more than any other to recreate the music of the golden era of musicals and films; he tries to use the original arrangements whenever possible. In fact, most of these are the originals. He's a rather flamboyant conductor but he really knows the material! And the orchestra members are all first class musicians!!

If there are young musicians in the orchestra it stands to reason there should be young members of the audience!!! Elementary, my dear Watson!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wilson_(conductor)


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I'm going to disagree with that. I think a recording will give you what the composer intended -music- devoid of the nonsense that crowds of people bring along with them. So that's for starters. I think recordings are a _purer_ form of music than a concert.
> ..........................................................................
> .


What I've found quite interesting and noticeable is the quality of recording between a CD say and a live, professionally produced youtube video. Often the sound on the YT content I've heard is quite detailed when it comes to the nitty gritty - breathing, finger clicks, seat shuffles etc - of orchestral sound. In fact it can be quite raw and this is down to the microphones, engineering and mixing of the sound. I picked up knowledge about microphone and recording techniques during my career and found that whatever positioning and combination of mics was used had a huge bearing on the resultant mix. The artifice in micing techniques and subsequent balancing and mixing has a considerable bearing on the artistic net result.

CD audio is sanitised generally speaking, with a more distant mix that reveals more of the auditorium's acoustics and less of the potential intimacy garnered via closer mics being featured, especially for the larger ensembles. In fact, some mixes, or rather acoustic spaces, are also 'enhanced' with digital reverb added in during a mixdown.

Not that I'm for one over the other as I like both approaches to a mix (near, more distant), but I am particularly taken with a slightly closer live sound as that is where the music is at its most enlivened and visceral to my ears.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Christabel said:


> There's 'niche' and there's 'endangered'. I think we are heading into the latter territory unless managements can come up with something a bit creative to attract a steady stream of younger audiences.
> ...


But the question I'd have is if there was this steady stream of younger listeners back in, say, the 40s and 50s. The orchestras in large metropolitan areas will most likely be around for a while, even if they go through rough times. Some smaller cities have orchestras that never had much support to begin with, and those may very well be endangered.

I'd also point out that if there is an effort to make things more accessible or popular to appeal to this or that demographic, that can lead to a "dumbing down" in an effort to attract one potential audience segment and it could result in having no audience at all by alienating existing ones. At that point I'd have to wonder what's the use in trying to save it.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

consuono said:


> But the question I'd have is if there was this steady stream of younger listeners back in, say, the 40s and 50s. The orchestras in large metropolitan areas will most likely be around for a while, even if they go through rough times. Some smaller cities have orchestras that never had much support to begin with, and those may very well be endangered.
> 
> I'd also point out that if there is an effort to make things more accessible or popular to appeal to this or that demographic, that can lead to a "dumbing down" in an effort to attract one potential audience segment and it could result in having no audience at all by alienating existing ones. At that point I'd have to wonder what's the use in trying to save it.


CM has in its favor the freedom of the marketplace. If efforts to attract potential customers are perceived as "dumbing down," the ticket sales will drop and the management will need to make a course correction. Forgive me for veering a little off topic, but I'd observe that a dumbing down of Catholic liturgical music has taken place widely, with traditional hymns, many of which have a lot of musical merit IMO, being replaced by banal, superficial, and thoroughly execrable boomer-generation music that IMO has no place at all in the celebration of the Holy Mass. The problem here is that liturgical music directors don't have to respond to the market; they have a captive audience who are obliged to attend Mass. Thank goodness that probably cannot happen with classical music concert programming, where the consumers can vote with their feet.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I just think that it would be more worthwhile to raise an audience to the level of a symphony orchestra and its non-pop repertoire (I do think a lot of film scores are "art music", btw) than to "lower" the orchestra to meet more "popular" tastes. I don't think it would work anyway. The burden of audience creation is on music teachers and the education establishment as a whole rather than symphony orchestras, and in today's hyper-politicized climate I don't see that happening. The thing is, I think it could be said that the death of traditional public classical music performance is a desired outcome according to the overall political-philosophical orientation today. Classical music is probably by definition "elitist": most who listen to it think there are artistic hierarchies (look at all the poll threads here). That's anathema to the overall philosophical atmosphere now.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Forcing kids to take music appreciation class might faciliate some young people to love classical music, and faciliate others to hate it, while leaving the rest probably indifferent. But even the ones who end up loving classical music still will probably not frequent the concert hall because all the classical music they can ever need or want is readily available to them on the internet. Heck, back when I started with classical music as a teenager in the 1980s, it was much more easily available to me by purchasing LPs, and later CDs. 

All technology has a positive and negative value. On the one hand, starting with the advent of high-quality sound technology (probably in the 1950s), the concert hall became less and less an option for those who enjoy classical music. On the other hand, because of the same technology, you can go to your CD library or laptop, in the privavcy of your home, and have the sum total of the world's most beautiful music available to you at any time. 

When you say yes to one thing you always have to say no to something else.


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## Guest (May 25, 2020)

consuono said:


> I just think that it would be more worthwhile to raise an audience to the level of a symphony orchestra and its non-pop repertoire (I do think a lot of film scores are "art music", btw) than to "lower" the orchestra to meet more "popular" tastes. I don't think it would work anyway. The burden of audience creation is on music teachers and the education establishment as a whole rather than symphony orchestras, and in today's hyper-politicized climate I don't see that happening. The thing is, I think it could be said that the death of traditional public classical music performance is a desired outcome according to the overall political-philosophical orientation today. Classical music is probably by definition "elitist": most who listen to it think there are artistic hierarchies (look at all the poll threads here). That's anathema to the overall philosophical atmosphere now.


I think those new hierarchies have been 'on the march' since the late 1980s. I remember being at university roughly about that time when concert halls were challenged as 'elitist temples' in need of disbanding. The sneering was palpable. This came out of the mouth of the Head of the Music Department and I wondered then about the fate of CM since so much of that cohort is of the same political stripes. Anyway, as I was *not* a straight-out-of-school university student I had the chops to take on this Professor. She called for me one day during a lecture, asking that I come outside as she wanted to speak to me; I'd previously complained that I opposed her views about 'elitism' suggesting it should never be in the course material anyway!! That it was propaganda. She demanded that I explain myself. I stood firm and said to her (an Ethnomusicologist), "you don't enforce in me a love of your music by trying to destroy that which I love!". She turned on her heel and walked away.

That's how you do it!! Refuse to be cowed by the pressure of conformity and stand up and be counted. I wonder, to this day, what effect that anti-elitist attitude has had on concert-going in general - or whether it's just another hurdle to be overcome.


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## Guest (May 25, 2020)

Simplicissimus said:


> CM has in its favor the freedom of the marketplace. If efforts to attract potential customers are perceived as "dumbing down," the ticket sales will drop and the management will need to make a course correction. Forgive me for veering a little off topic, but I'd observe that a dumbing down of Catholic liturgical music has taken place widely, with traditional hymns, many of which have a lot of musical merit IMO, being replaced by banal, superficial, and thoroughly execrable boomer-generation music that IMO has no place at all in the celebration of the Holy Mass. The problem here is that liturgical music directors don't have to respond to the market; they have a captive audience who are obliged to attend Mass. Thank goodness that probably cannot happen with classical music concert programming, where the consumers can vote with their feet.


Dumbing down is a problem the western world over, in my view. Some will disagree, as is their right.

I hear you about the mass and the bog-standard fare which passes for 'music'. Believe me, it's hard to swallow this when you've spent nearly a year of Sundays at Hochamt (High Mass) in Augustinerkirche, Wien, with orchestra, choir, organist (splendid show-stopper afterwards) and a huge entourage of priests and acolytes!! Full musical masses and proceedings lasting 2 hours (yes, a challenge to the bladder!). I now attend our Anglican Cathedral only for Easter and Christmas as the Master of Choristers and Organist is a friend as is a member of the choir. They have an orchestra for those occasions as well. Nothing left will suffice, I'm afraid.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Simplicissimus said:


> CM has in its favor the freedom of the marketplace. If efforts to attract potential customers are perceived as "dumbing down," the ticket sales will drop and the management will need to make a course correction. Forgive me for veering a little off topic, but I'd observe that a dumbing down of Catholic liturgical music has taken place widely, with traditional hymns, many of which have a lot of musical merit IMO, being replaced by banal, superficial, and thoroughly execrable boomer-generation music that IMO has no place at all in the celebration of the Holy Mass. The problem here is that liturgical music directors don't have to respond to the market; they have a captive audience who are obliged to attend Mass. Thank goodness that probably cannot happen with classical music concert programming, where the consumers can vote with their feet.


It's not just Catholic liturgical music. And yes, I lament that alarmingly rapid "devolution" of church music right alongside you. That's a great comparison for sure.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Of course writing appealing music is the main answer, which is an ongoing discussion and debate in the classical music community, but I also think that the mainstream classical decision makers could bend more to include electronics, multi-media, non-traditional instruments, humor, etc. It also may be time to rethink the black tie formalities of classical concerts and other such non-music related practices.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Coach G said:


> Forcing kids to take music appreciation class might faciliate some young people to love classical music, and faciliate others to hate it, while leaving the rest probably indifferent. But even the ones who end up loving classical music still will probably not frequent the concert hall because all the classical music they can ever need or want is readily available to them on the internet.


My college experience: all students were required to take one full year of humanities regardless of major. Not just HUM101, but you could mix up art history, music of western civ, American music, etc. Did it make CM converts? I don't know, but I would like to think it at least introduced people to music they would otherwise never experience. Concert attendance to a number of events was required, btw.

Now, almost 50 years later that requirement is long gone. Gone too are Music of Western Civ and other courses. Now students can enroll in History of Rock n Roll, The Music of ABBA, Hip Hop and Rap music in American Culture, and other pointless courses. I can't even imagine a conservatory trained professor wanting to teach something like this. I've asked how they could sell out the great music of the past, music worth preserving. They just say that this is what students want, they don't want to learn about music for old white guys. The professors are likely products of the '60s mantra "Hey, hey, Ho, ho, Western Civ has Got to Go!"


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> Now, almost 50 years later that requirement is long gone. Gone too are Music of Western Civ and other courses. Now students can enroll in History of Rock n Roll, The Music of ABBA, Hip Hop and Rap music in American Culture, and other pointless courses. I can't even imagine a conservatory trained professor wanting to teach something like this. I've asked how they could sell out the great music of the past, music worth preserving. They just say that this is what students want, they don't want to learn about music for old white guys. The professors are likely products of the '60s mantra "Hey, hey, Ho, ho, Western Civ has Got to Go!"


It isn't necessarily the professors. The college presidents want to keep the kids happy (translating as seats full), and department chairs, especially in Humanities departments, are desperate to stay relevant in a age where STEM or business are all that parents care about.


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## mahlernerd (Jan 19, 2020)

I am 15 years old, and I have tried to get my friends to go to a symphony concert with me. I was actually surprised by how many of them really enjoyed it. They said that they would want to do that again. I am also surprised to see how many younger people attend the concerts, at least in my hometown. We have a society at the University of Michigan that allows for musicians from all over the world (such as the Berlin Phil, Mariinsky Orchestra to name a few). At these concerts, students get 10 dollar tickets, so I am seeing many younger people attend these concerts. This is just what I notice, however.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

consuono said:


> I just think that it would be more worthwhile to raise an audience to the level of a symphony orchestra and its non-pop repertoire (I do think a lot of film scores are "art music", btw) than to "lower" the orchestra to meet more "popular" tastes. I don't think it would work anyway. The burden of audience creation is on music teachers and the education establishment as a whole rather than symphony orchestras, and in today's hyper-politicized climate I don't see that happening. The thing is, I think it could be said that the death of traditional public classical music performance is a desired outcome according to the overall political-philosophical orientation today. Classical music is probably by definition "elitist": most who listen to it think there are artistic hierarchies (look at all the poll threads here). That's anathema to the overall philosophical atmosphere now.


Very well put: "The burden of audience creation is on music teachers and the education establishment as a whole rather than symphony orchestras..." I'd add that parents can do a lot in the way of equipping their kids with the rudiments of music appreciation, mostly just by modeling adult choices and behaviors. It saddens me to hear how some school systems are failing with music education. I am privileged to be affiliated with schools where children in the primary grades actually learn to read music and are not only exposed to, but are taught about, the music of great CM composers. All is not lost. Far from it.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Now students can enroll in History of Rock n Roll, The Music of ABBA, Hip Hop and Rap music in American Culture, and other pointless courses.


There's nothing wrong with these courses as a concept, just that they shouldn't "replace" ones in concert-hall music.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

A few suggestions:

Tables for two or any other number instead of rows of seats.
Wine and hard liquor.
High-grade pot.

That will pack them in and wanting more. After a few drinks and hits, it won't matter what music is performed.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_The Elb Philharmonie in Hamburg has only been completed within the last 4 or so years at the cost of many many millions of Euro. It has apartments and presumably shopping malls within it. Perhaps that is the answer; multiplexes with diverse spaces. So, larold, you may be onto something._

One thing I know: if I wanted to subscribe to my local symphony's season and wanted my wife to go with me, I'd have a much better chance if there was a flower show or something else going on there besides classical music. She might like the overture that starts the show, maybe even the symphony that follows, but she'd be bored by the time the concerto arrives. If she had an alternative at the venue she might agree to the main thing.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_I am 15 years old, and I have tried to get my friends to go to a symphony concert with me. I was actually surprised by how many of them really enjoyed it. They said that they would want to do that again. I am also surprised to see how many younger people attend the concerts, at least in my hometown. We have a society at the University of Michigan that allows for musicians from all over the world (such as the Berlin Phil, Mariinsky Orchestra to name a few). At these concerts, students get 10 dollar tickets, so I am seeing many younger people attend these concerts. This is just what I notice, however._

I live an hour from Ann Arbor and have attended many concerts at U-M including Mendelssohn Theatre. I wish the whole world was as dynamic and diverse as Ann Arbor but it's not. I think you are very lucky to live where you do. As far as Michigan USA is concerned, Ann Arbor is an artistic paradise.


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## Guest (May 26, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> My college experience: all students were required to take one full year of humanities regardless of major. Not just HUM101, but you could mix up art history, music of western civ, American music, etc. Did it make CM converts? I don't know, but I would like to think it at least introduced people to music they would otherwise never experience. Concert attendance to a number of events was required, btw.
> 
> Now, almost 50 years later that requirement is long gone. Gone too are Music of Western Civ and other courses. Now students can enroll in History of Rock n Roll, The Music of ABBA, Hip Hop and Rap music in American Culture, and other pointless courses. I can't even imagine a conservatory trained professor wanting to teach something like this. I've asked how they could sell out the great music of the past, music worth preserving. They just say that this is what students want, they don't want to learn about music for old white guys. The professors are likely products of the '60s mantra "Hey, hey, Ho, ho, Western Civ has Got to Go!"


That last line of yours nailed it.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> My college experience: all students were required to take one full year of humanities regardless of major. Not just HUM101, but you could mix up art history, music of western civ, American music, etc. Did it make CM converts? I don't know, but I would like to think it at least introduced people to music they would otherwise never experience. Concert attendance to a number of events was required, btw.
> 
> Now, almost 50 years later that requirement is long gone. Gone too are Music of Western Civ and other courses. Now students can enroll in History of Rock n Roll, The Music of ABBA, Hip Hop and Rap music in American Culture, and other pointless courses. I can't even imagine a conservatory trained professor wanting to teach something like this. I've asked how they could sell out the great music of the past, music worth preserving. They just say that this is what students want, they don't want to learn about music for old white guys. The professors are likely products of the '60s mantra "Hey, hey, Ho, ho, Western Civ has Got to Go!"


Yes, I agree that one should be acquainted with classical music just for the sake of it. I don't know how big are the differences between Europe and the US. In Europe classical music still remains to be a rather important part of "traditional" or "high" culture and as a result music history, focusing on classical music, is quite thoroughly taught. In Estonia we study it from 6th grade or so and then in high school again, even more in depth. I know that Germans take classical music still pretty seriously, very many young people study an instrument or voice etc.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

annaw said:


> Yes, I agree that one should be acquainted with classical music just for the sake of it. I don't know how big are the differences between Europe and the US. In Europe classical music still remains to be a rather important part of "traditional" or "high" culture and as a result music history, focusing on classical music, is quite thoroughly taught. In Estonia we study it from 6th grade or so and then in high school again, even more in depth. I know that Germans take classical music still pretty seriously, very many young people study an instrument or voice etc.


In my experience, in the US most students are taught some rudiments of Western music history and often participate in class listening activities, but these rarely go beyond Vivaldi, Mozart, Handel, Beethoven, and Debussy. Also these are usually done at a young age and are almost never covered in upper grades. I was fortunate enough to take a robust Western Civilization course in high school that included a good classical music element, but the texts I used propagated all sorts of classic myths ("Brahms was not a good melodist," "Bach's music is dry and academic," "Mahler was an oddball who wrote bizarre, esoteric symphonies", etc. etc.) and wasn't until a couple years ago that I started listening for myself and discovered the truth.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> In my experience, in the US most students are taught some rudiments of Western music history and often participate in class listening activities, but these rarely go beyond Vivaldi, Mozart, Handel, Beethoven, and Debussy. Also these are usually done at a young age and are almost never covered in upper grades. I was fortunate enough to take a robust Western Civilization course in high school that included a good classical music element, but the texts I used propagated all sorts of classic myths ("Brahms was not a good melodist," "Bach's music is dry and academic," "Mahler was an oddball who wrote bizarre, esoteric symphonies", etc. etc.) and wasn't until a couple years ago that I started listening for myself and discovered the truth.


Yup, probably the teacher plays quite important role as well (some are rather anti-Wagner for example). In Estonia students are taught quite a lot of different lesser known (lesser known in normal world :lol composers - Berlioz, Mussorgsky, Cage, Shostakovich, etc. It probably isn't everywhere in the country exactly the same way but should be more or less similar. It certainly helps to build a certain understanding but listening to 2 min excerpts from Mahler's symphonies doesn't give a very truthful image anyways. It still all comes down to personal interest I suppose.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

I had a music history and appreciation class in college back in the fall for Western Civ. credit or something. All the other classes sounded boring to me.

It was one of my favorite classes! It was two parts, but I wasn't able to take the second part in the spring because it conflicted with the schedule for my genetics class.

We spent much time listening to music and watching YouTube videos of performances. We went from the middle ages to the Classical Period. I knew most of the material, but I figured it's either that or some regular history class. Now I like history, but a college level history class? Nope! Nope! Nope! I'll satisfy my cravings for history at the local historical society! :lol:

The class was less like a regular class as there was only one written quiz. We wrote papers on whatever piece of music we wanted to for the period of time for the past few weeks. We also did presentations on a specific work or works or a composer or instrument, etc. It was open ended really, and we could show YouTube videos to the class. Some people found some rather obscure stuff I had never heard of before. I showed them a clip from _Fidelio_. Some students giggled watching Janowitz and Kollo sing "O namenlose Freude!". I was sure to show them a clip of _Der Freischütz, _to which the teacher responded, "That looks fun." Was she, the _professor_, not familiar with _Der Freischütz_!  Is that what she implied?  Oh dear. :lol:

I'm not sure that was a college level class honestly, but I think having classes like that in high school would be great. Maybe they do that sort of thing around here. I don't know; I was homeschooled. :lol:


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## Guest (May 27, 2020)

annaw said:


> Yup, probably the teacher plays quite important role as well (some are rather anti-Wagner for example). In Estonia students are taught quite a lot of different lesser known (lesser known in normal world :lol composers - Berlioz, Mussorgsky, Cage, Shostakovich, etc. It probably isn't everywhere in the country exactly the same way but should be more or less similar. It certainly helps to build a certain understanding but listening to 2 min excerpts from Mahler's symphonies doesn't give a very truthful image anyways. It still all comes down to personal interest I suppose.


The teacher does, indeed, play a major role in this vital cultural area. My sister, now retired, was a national award-winning Drama teacher (who started out teaching French and English). She worked at what we would regard as a 'challenging' school, with plenty of kids who were from government housing and who were often in trouble. During her drama classes - for all groups - she had the kids lying on the floor and listening to art music. After a time even the most troubled kids from the roughest backgrounds participated and enjoyed what she presented them. It was a major breakthrough and I still occasionally *meet people who refer to my sister and the great work she did in teaching. The next stop for them after that in Drama was poetry and acting out some of the ideas found in the poems; no matter how abstract, the kids would always come up with something. She loved her students and they loved her. When you have the confidence of kids like that they'll invariably walk over hot coals in bare feet for you.

Anything and everything is possible.

(*As luck would have it, one of my recently acquired friends worked at the same school as my sister, in the English/Drama faculty. When she told me she'd worked at that school I said nothing for some months and then one day quite recently I asked about working with my sister at that school. She enthusiastically spoke about her and recounted some very funny stories from that period; my sister has a great sense of humour and I could fill these pages with anecdotes she's told me over the years!)


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

adriesba said:


> I'm not sure that was a college level class honestly, but I think having classes like that in high school would be great. Maybe they do that sort of thing around here. I don't know; I was homeschooled. :lol:


Hey, so was I! _Nerdy unsocialized homeschool power_!:lol: My high school music course was actually integrated with Western philosophy and visual art, so I appreciated learning about the circumstances of composers and their outlooks with other cultural things that were going on at the same time. We weren't really given many guidelines for how to listen to the music, though. One of my favorite memories from that is the scherzo from Brahms's 4th symphony, which was one of the listening selections. The course told us to recognize the main theme by singing it to the words, "Come and get your beans, boys!" I get a little chuckle out of that whenever I listen to the symphony.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Portamento said:


> There's nothing wrong with these courses as a concept, just that they shouldn't "replace" ones in concert-hall music.


Well though that's what happens when there's the belief that Beethoven is "no better than" (insert any number of pop stars here). It *will* replace the study of concert-hall music. That's postmodernism.


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## Guest (May 27, 2020)

consuono said:


> Well though that's what happens when there's the belief that Beethoven is "no better than" (insert any number of pop stars here). It *will* replace the study of concert-hall music. That's postmodernism.


If there's anything guaranteed to tick me off it's this idea!! Cultural relativism; pass me the bucket.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Hey, so was I! _Nerdy unsocialized homeschool power_!:lol: My high school music course was actually integrated with Western philosophy and visual art, so I appreciated learning about the circumstances of composers and their outlooks with other cultural things that were going on at the same time. We weren't really given many guidelines for how to listen to the music, though. One of my favorite memories from that is the scherzo from Brahms's 4th symphony, which was one of the listening selections. The course told us to recognize the main theme by singing it to the words, "Come and get your beans, boys!" I get a little chuckle out of that whenever I listen to the symphony.


Oh cool! I think homeschooling can produce excellent results if done right. My English teacher said that, in his experience, homeschoolers tend to be the very best in the class or the very worst in the class. I'm glad to not be homeschooled now though! It got lonely! Silly COVID-19 is ruining homeschoolers' time to socialize. :lol:

I don't know if you've seen the cartoon Story Bots, but on the first day of my music history class, the teacher played us the music episode from that cartoon. I was worried about where the class was going watching a kids' show! :lol:

Good times, I guess, lol...


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