# Mozart & Percussion



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm finding this is an area Mozart didn't explore much. Any ideas as to why?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

The only standard "percussion" back then was timpani. 
Mozart has additional percussion (so-called "turkish music") in the Abduction from the Seraglio (and maybe as a fun effect in a couple of dances, but I am not sure).
This is nothing special about Mozart, percussion beyond timpani was quite rare until the late romantic period (it was more frequent in opera and Paganini also abused some in his violin concertos). 
Brahms has exactly once in his symphonies the triangle (4th, 3rd movement), I think, and a bit earlier, Liszt's use of the triangle in his first piano concerto was made fun of, critics called it "Concerto for triangle")


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Thanks for the insight.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

The percussion used for "Turkish music" was triangle, cymbals and bass drum.

A famous example by Haydn:






One by Beethoven (that is not the 9th symphony!):


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Then there's the toy symphony from the 1760s, intermittently attributed to Leopold Mozart, Joseph Haydn, Michael Haydn, and Edmund Angerer - it features ratchet, Mark tree, triangle, drum and Glockenspiel.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Art Rock said:


> Then there's the toy symphony from the 1760s, intermittently attributed to Leopold Mozart, Joseph Haydn, Michael Haydn, and Edmund Angerer - it features ratchet, Mark tree, triangle, drum and Glockenspiel.


A 12-inch 78 RPM of this was the first CM I ever heard!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm finding this is an area Mozart didn't explore much. Any ideas as to why?


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

I suppose it has something to do with the development of instruments. Beethoven was the first composer that used timpani as a melodic instrument (in his symphony 4th and 9th) and he used cello and double bass more intensively than Mozart. Had Mozart think about the same ideas? Maybe he did, but he might not carry them out due to the limits of either the instruments or the performers.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Bruckner Anton said:


> I suppose it has something to do with the development of instruments. Beethoven was the first composer that used timpani as a melodic instrument (in his symphony 4th and 9th) and he used cello and double bass more intensively than Mozart. Had Mozart think about the same ideas? Maybe he did, but he might not carry them out due to the limits of either the instruments or the performers.


I read somewhere that Beethoven got the idea of expanding his bass parts after taking suggestions from virtuoso double bassist Dragonetti (which was like a unicorn back then). He was apparently pretty influential in revolutionizing the role of the bass back then


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Even Mozart could not do everything in his brief time. He already brought the piano concerto into its mature form and also used the contemporary woodwinds to the best of their possibilities (recall that even clarinets were not yet fully standard, I think only three or four Mozart symphonies use them (#31, 35?, 39, 40). 
Percussion was tied to gag effects or military/oriental atmosphere which was still mostly true in the early/mid romantic era. IIRC no Mendelssohn symphony has extra percussion, Schumann only has triangle in his 1st, Bruckner for two climaxes in 7th and 8th (which I find a bit silly for a few seconds).


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## Ravn (Jan 6, 2020)

Bruckner Anton said:


> I suppose it has something to do with the development of instruments. Beethoven was the first composer that used timpani as a melodic instrument (in his symphony 4th and 9th) and he used cello and double bass more intensively than Mozart. Had Mozart think about the same ideas? Maybe he did, but he might not carry them out due to the limits of either the instruments or the performers.


Not quite right. Druschetzky wrote a concerto for timpani and orchestra which obviously uses the timpani as a melodic instrument around 1790.






And then you have Johann Fischer in the 1780's with "Symphony with Eight Obbligato Timpani".


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Does the glass harmonica count as percussion?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm finding this is an area Mozart didn't explore much. Any ideas as to why?


Probably to do with Classicism itself. as it wasn't until later in Romantic periods when the percussion group as you might know it became more widely used. But take a listen to this masterpiece:


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Ravn said:


> Not quite right. Druschetzky wrote a concerto for timpani and orchestra which obviously uses the timpani as a melodic instrument around 1790.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am currently working on a symphony for strings and timpani and am using five drums. The Fischer piece has me considering increasing that number to at least seven!!

Thanks for those clips.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

ArtMusic said:


> Probably to do with Classicism itself. as it wasn't until later in Romantic periods when the percussion group as you might know it became more widely used. But take a listen to this masterpiece:


That's great!


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Some interesting use of percussion for drama is present in the Prague Symphony, I doubt it was that common at the time, unlike in romanticism.


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