# Brahms



## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Help! Wanting to write a blog about Brahms as he's my favourite composer and fascinated about his life! Any suggestions on what to include? Thank you.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Judith said:


> Help! Wanting to write a blog about Brahms as he's my favourite composer and fascinated about his life! Any suggestions on what to include? Thank you.


Are you asking for musical recommendations or for biographical material?
My favorite Brahms:
Piano Concerto #2
First and Fourth Symphonies 
Clarinet and Piano Quintets
Late Piano Music

Lots of other great Brahms but those are the surefire masterpieces, imo


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Triplets said:


> Are you asking for musical recommendations or for biographical material?
> My favorite Brahms:
> Piano Concerto #2
> First and Fourth Symphonies
> ...


Both would be brilliant! Just getting everything together! Thsnk you!


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Don't forget to mention his beard.

V


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

I think Brahms' late period - after the 4th symphony; some of the most beautiful music ever - deserves more attention. Not that it's OBSCURE or anything - and somehow the clarinet works and the clarinet quintet in particular get a fair amount of attention - but, well, you know.

Two little moments: The piano solo in the third movement of the piano trio no. 3 in C minor where suddenly you're listening to jazz: 



 (time stamp: 1:10). Tricky rhythm there; it's in 3/4 but sounds like what would later be known as a foxtrot, and then he switches to 4/4 before you can easily catch on.

Second: you know that descending motif that accompanies the presentation of the rose and the conclusion of "Rosenkavalier"? (



) Here's where Richard Strauss got that, from the slow movement of Brahms' double concerto for violin and cello: 



 (time stamp: 6:17).


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Varick said:


> Don't forget to mention his beard.
> 
> V


His dress sense left a lot to be desired lol


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Unfortunately, Brahms was an extraordinarily private and, late in life, lugubrious composer, whose working out of his compositions will forever be a mystery. His music is masterful and tightly constructed, his personal life more of a mystery. We have no idea what he and Clara talked about after Schumann died and they parted ways. In writing, he had a wickedly subversive sense of humor. Any of which might be a subject for discussion. In his music, he was also obsessive about obscuring or writing through the bar line. 

Good luck.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

MarkW said:


> Unfortunately, Brahms was an extraordinarily private and, late in life, lugubrious composer, whose working out of his compositions will forever be a mystery. His music is masterful and tightly constructed, his personal life more of a mystery. We have no idea what he and Clara talked about after Schumann died and they parted ways. In writing, he had a wickedly subversive sense of humor. Any of which might be a subject for discussion. In his music, he was also obsessive about obscuring or writing through the bar line.
> 
> Good luck.


Thank you. I wonder if there was more behind "closed doors" than what we know!


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

There's a passage in Norman Lebrecht's _Why Mahler?_ which describes Mahler visiting Brahms in 1896 or 1897.

_"The doyen of German music is not in good shape, his full-bearded face jaundiced by liver cancer. During a walk in the woods, Brahms declares that music is finished, over, done with. He detests modern composers,...., Strauss most of all."_

_"Leaving Brahms at his cottage, he [Mahler] looks back and catches sight of him at the kitchen stove, grilling a lonely sausage for his supper. The scene shocks Mahler... he does not want to end his life adulated and alone, like the immortal Johannes Brahms."_


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Dr Johnson said:


> There's a passage in Norman Lebrecht's _Why Mahler?_ which describes Mahler visiting Brahms in 1896 or 1897.
> 
> _"The doyen of German music is not in good shape, his full-bearded face jaundiced by liver cancer. During a walk in the woods, Brahms declares that music is finished, over, done with. He detests modern composers,...., Strauss most of all."_
> 
> _"Leaving Brahms at his cottage, he [Mahler] looks back and catches sight of him at the kitchen stove, grilling a lonely sausage for his supper. The scene shocks Mahler... he does not want to end his life adulated and alone, like the immortal Johannes Brahms."_


Actually, I think that Brahms was fairly content with being single. His Third Symphony uses a musical motto that represents the words "free, but happy." Based on that motto, I assume that he enjoyed his lonely sausage. (That sounds dirty, but I don't mean it like that... )


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Brahms organ works are worth noting too:


 "Mein Jesu, der du mich" (E minor)
 "Herzliebster Jesu". Adagio (G minor)
 "O Welt, ich muss dich lassen" (F major) [1st version]
 "Herzlich tut mich erfreuen" (D major)
 "Schmücke dich, o Liebe Seele" (E major)
 "O wie selig seid ihr doch, ihr Frommen". Molto moderato (D minor)
 "O Gott, du frommer Gott" (A minor)
 "Es ist ein Ros' entsprungen" (F major)
 "Herzlich tut mich verlangen" (A minor) [1st version]
 "Herzlich tut mich verlangen" (A minor) [2nd version]
 "O Welt, ich muss dich lassen" (F major) [2nd version


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Actually, I think that Brahms was fairly content with being single. His Third Symphony uses a musical motto that represents the words "free, but happy." Based on that motto, I assume that he enjoyed his lonely sausage. (That sounds dirty, but I don't mean it like that... )


He also enjoyed cigars. I wonder what Freud thought about him... 

Whether he was an unhappy and lonely man is difficult to tell, precisely because he was so intensely private.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

He once filled a train with dynamite. Allegedly.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

On a more serious note, he remains one of the more controversial composers, judging from entries in the "most overrated and most underrated composers" thread. That by itself could make a good blog subject, with arguments for both sides.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> He once filled a train with dynamite. Allegedly.


Wow, I never knew this. Interesting find!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> He once filled a train with dynamite. Allegedly.


Well, cigars do look a bit like sticks of dynamite... 

And wasn't there a story that Brahms shot cats or Wagner's dog or something with a crossbow? Or was it the other way round? I seem to remember such allegations from an old thread here.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

In the blog I would explore how Brahms had a crush on Clara Schumann, but when she finally became available, Brahms became distant to her.
He seemed to prefer being alone, yet one can hear the loneliness in much of his late music, so I doubt if he was really happy in the solitary life he chose.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

So do I. The occasional commentator has dropped hints about the possible effect on Brahms' emotional development of having played the piano in a Hamburg brothel as a teenager, the suggestion being that he may have been abused there and that this cast a shadow over his ability to form healthy relationships in adult life.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

hpowders said:


> In the blog I would explore how Brahms had a crush on Clara Schumann, but when she finally became available, Brahms became distant to her.
> He seemed to prefer being alone, yet one can hear the loneliness in much of his late music, so I doubt if he was really happy in the solitary life he chose.


When she was not alone and he had the crush, do you think there was something going on behind "closed doors"?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Judith said:


> When she was not alone and he had the crush, do you think there was something going on behind "closed doors"?


Something like that could have driven Robert Schumann mad.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Judith said:


> When she was not alone and he had the crush, do you think there was something going on behind "closed doors"?


Can make things very exited


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

From what I've read about Brahms, it appears that his early sexual experiences while playing piano, or while not playing the piano, in the Hamburg brothel left him unable to seriously consider sex with a "decent" woman. He bears a similarity in this with the polar explorer Roald Amundsen, who only engaged in sex with prostitutes (as far as is known).

As far as Brahms' music is concerned, as in the discussion of Ravel and his total output, Brahms also has an extraordinarily high ratio of hits over misses. Though his "big" works are few, they are all masterpieces in my view, and there are many, many gems among the more intimate works. Again, like Ravel, a rich inner musical life, expressed in very distinctive fashion.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

This is the best Brahms source I have ever found. Its eight lectures about his life, music, and influence. Its HIGHLY entertaining and very detailed. You don't need to get the DVD, just the audio download is totally fine. ALSO, WAIT until it goes on sale and you can get the audio download for $20 (all courses go on sale several times a year).

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/great-masters-brahms-his-life-and-music.html


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Bettina said:


> Actually, I think that Brahms was fairly content with being single. His Third Symphony uses a musical motto that represents the words "free, but happy." Based on that motto, I assume that he enjoyed his lonely sausage. (That sounds dirty, but I don't mean it like that... )


I thought the FAE motif represented the German phrase "Frei Aber Einsam". My German is a little rusty but I'm pretty sure that translates into English as "Free but lonely" rather than "Free but happy". Certainly an enigmatic figure though.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

chill782002 said:


> I thought the FAE motif represented the German phrase "Frei Aber Einsam". My German is a little rusty but I'm pretty sure that translates into English as "Free but lonely" rather than "Free but happy". Certainly an enigmatic figure though.


I'm pretty sure that the Third Symphony uses "Frei Aber Froh." The other motto, "Frei Aber Einsam" comes from Brahms' friend Joachim, who used it as his personal signature phrase. In the Third Symphony, Brahms took that motto and changed Einsam to Froh. My source for this is the Wikipedia article on the Third Symphony: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._3_(Brahms)


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Fair enough, I stand corrected. Thanks for the info. Maybe Brahms really was a confirmed bachelor then.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Thank you to everyone who has helped me with my Brahms Blog. I have started a draft on this site! If you can see it feel free to read and will be grateful for any hints, comments etc!


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Personally, I'd like to read some musings on his choral works. Ein Deutsches Requiem gets talked about but I'm thinking about all the others.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Second: you know that descending motif that accompanies the presentation of the rose and the conclusion of "Rosenkavalier"? (
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice catch.. I also hear lots of Brahms double concerto in Strauss. Hearing Brahms in things can't never be wrong!


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

Judith said:


> Thank you to everyone who has helped me with my Brahms Blog. I have started a draft on this site! If you can see it feel free to read and will be grateful for any hints, comments etc!


Cant find it yet, but looking forward to it.

His music eluded me for so long in its mysterious restraint, but his two piano concertos was the key to unlocking it all  Im really interested in learning more of him now.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

brianvds said:


> [He also enjoyed cigars. I wonder what Freud thought about him...
> 
> Whether he was an unhappy and lonely man is difficult to tell, precisely because he was so intensely private.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Two little moments: The piano solo in the third movement of the piano trio no. 3 in C minor where suddenly you're listening to jazz:
> 
> 
> 
> (time stamp: 1:10). Tricky rhythm there; it's in 3/4 but sounds like what would later be known as a foxtrot, and then he switches to 4/4 before you can easily catch on.


Hm... maybe not enough for a new thread, but what kind of music did Brahms invent?

1. Jazz: Cello sonata #2
2. 80's hair metal: String quartet #1


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Schumanniac said:


> Cant find it yet, but looking forward to it.
> 
> His music eluded me for so long in its mysterious restraint, but his two piano concertos was the key to unlocking it all  Im really interested in learning more of him now.


I didn't realise people couldn't see it but it is on draft at the moment! Keep adding and editing it!


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Just had a discussion on Twitter about whether there was more going on between Brahms and Clara Schumann behind closed doors! What does TC think?


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

If they did, I'd bet it wasn't often. Brahms as a young man was not only successful but athletic and strong, and one would have thought a man with such attributes would have found a wife if he'd put himself out to do so. You'll sometimes hear or read suggestions that he was simply asexual but he's known to have used prostitutes, certainly in his Vienna years and who knows about earlier? These things seem to me to point not to a lack of interest in such things but to a degree of repression on Brahms' part. (Like others on here I think some of this can be heard in his music in places, but that's obviously a matter of opinion.)


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Animal the Drummer said:


> If they did, I'd bet it wasn't often. Brahms as a young man was not only successful but athletic and strong, and one would have thought a man with such attributes would have found a wife if he'd put himself out to do so. You'll sometimes hear or read suggestions that he was simply asexual but he's known to have used prostitutes, certainly in his Vienna years and who knows about earlier? These things seem to me to point not to a lack of interest in such things but to a degree of repression on Brahms' part. (Like others on here I think some of this can be heard in his music in places, but that's obviously a matter of opinion.)


He might not have married because he was so in love with Clara


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

That's certainly possible, at least as long as Robert Schumann was alive, but it wouldn't explain why Brahms didn't marry her after she was widowed.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Animal the Drummer said:


> That's certainly possible, at least as long as Robert Schumann was alive, but it wouldn't explain why Brahms didn't marry her after she was widowed.


Maybe out of respect for Robert! Even though he had passed away, Brahms might have still felt that he was betraying him!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Brahms was only interested in Clara Schumann when she was unavailable.

Once Robert was out of the picture, Brahms became distant to Clara....afraid to get involved...one would deduce.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Brahms just wanted to be great. Maybe that shows as a self-awareness that makes it all seem less sincere.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Brahms just wanted to be great. Maybe that shows as a self-awareness that makes it all seem less sincere.


Evidence? Or is this (just) your considered opinion? Composing just the means to an end: being great.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Animal the Drummer said:


> That's certainly possible, at least as long as Robert Schumann was alive, but *it wouldn't explain why Brahms didn't marry her after she was widowed.*


Um...Wouldn't Clara's wishes have to figure into it somewhere?


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## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Um...Wouldn't Clara's wishes have to figure into it somewhere?


Yes; exactly! _ She _very well could have been the one to turn _him _down. And Clara was 14 years older than Brahms; that may have been a factor, too.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Um...Wouldn't Clara's wishes have to figure into it somewhere?


Common Core taught me that women were property until the 20th century. "Me Johannes, you Jane" etc.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

bz3 said:


> Common Core taught me that women were property until the 20th century. "Me Johannes, you Jane" etc.


Not Clara. She was a strong-willed woman with a mind of her own. She fought hard for the legal right to marry Robert against her father's wishes. She didn't allow the patriarchy to tell her what to do!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Brahms just wanted to be great. Maybe that shows as a self-awareness that makes it all seem less sincere.


Or maybe he wanted to make music great again.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

If you don't have it already, you should acquire Jan Swafford's excellent biography of Brahms. It's a treasure trove of the kind of information you seem to be looking for.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

brianvds said:


> Or maybe he wanted to make music great again.


I can see it: Brahms (with the beard) and a slogan Make Music Great Again.

If someone knows how to make a nice t-shirt or baseball cap out of this idea, I'm buying! Seriously!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Lenny said:


> I can see it: Brahms (with the beard) and a slogan Make Music Great Again.


An orange beard, mind you.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

laurie said:


> Yes; exactly! _ She _very well could have been the one to turn _him _down. And Clara was 14 years older than Brahms; that may have been a factor, too.


Could have been the one to turn him down, yes. Could *well* have been, though? Clara's admiration for Brahms the musician is a matter of record and he was - at that age - still an attractive man. If we're going to speculate about the possible effect of the age gap, it seems more plausible to me that she might feel this was an unexpected opportunity that she shouldn't pass up. Of course it's true that she could have been the naysayer, but with respect that doesn't seem to me to be the likelier option.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Judith said:


> Help! Wanting to write a blog about Brahms as he's my favourite composer and fascinated about his life! Any suggestions on what to include? Thank you.


Now getting proof-read by a friend who is a conductor and a big Brahms fan. Focused mainly on "Schumanngate" as thats what really fascinated me! Hopefully end product should be ready soon!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

bz3 said:


> Common Core taught me that women were property until the 20th century. *"Me Johannes, you Jane"* etc.


I got a laugh out of that one!! :lol:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Judith said:


> Now getting proof-read by a friend who is a conductor and a big Brahms fan. Focused mainly on "Schumanngate" as thats what really fascinated me! Hopefully end product should be ready soon!


Sound really exciting.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

brianvds said:


> An orange beard, mind you.


Sorry, run out of my photoshop skills!


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

What about this? Anyone for a t-shirt?


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Lenny said:


> What about this? Anyone for a t-shirt?
> 
> View attachment 94305


I like it as long as Andre Rieu does not use it to become president of something!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Lenny said:


> Sorry, run out of my photoshop skills!
> 
> View attachment 94251


Well, this one's a bit more orange...


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Well the Brahms blog has just gone up now. It can be edited so if there are any terrible mistakes please let me know as I will be worrying about it for days afterwards now lol!!!! Well I am a "worry wort"!!!


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