# The very peculiar chord of Beethoven's "Pathétique"



## Forss (May 12, 2017)

There is, in the second movement of Beethoven's _Pathétique_, one _very_ peculiar, bleak, gloomy, vague, and _restless_ chord (11:45 in this clip) that captures a _real_ feeling of mine, one that I have never been able to give a suitable expression.

Do you know what I mean, or does your _heart_ respond to that wonderful progression (11:37-45) in quite another way? I would love to hear your thoughts about it!

Sincerely,
Forss


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The passage under discussion is quoted below, the moment Forss points out is the two measures beginning at the asterisk:









I'm a theorist, so probably not the ideal person to answer the question as posed. But my response to its expressive qualities is less dark than yours. I hear it not as bleak, but as bittersweet, like a gentle sadness lingered over and savored.

Technically speaking, the progression and the chord in question are quite normal. It is just V7/V to V, resolving to the tonic A-flat in the measure after the quotation. What makes it interesting and highly expressive is the non-harmonic tones and their treatment, especially the C-flats and the F-flats, which are borrowed from Ab minor, and the way they delay the resolution of a 9-8 appoggiatura in one case and a 9-8 suspension in the other. More generally, Beethoven is applying a time-honored way of intensifying a return to tonic in the major mode by borrowing notes from the parallel minor mode. Haydn and Mozart used that device all the time. This is a particularly clever and beautiful example of the practice.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I hear it as bleak and it is as if "the protagonist" (not that I really think of this work as having a protagonist) is almost lost, almost gives in ... but it was a wrong turn and s/he finds a way back to a somewhat brighter place. But I understand your use of the term _real_ feeling to mean something more than this. I am not sure I can assign the chord a particular feeling that I am personally very familiar with. Also, it is not a moment that I am especially familiar with and I am unsure whether I am responding to Barenboim only or the music no matter who is playing.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

yeah, it is impressionistic in feel. My chord identifer is saying it is a modified Cm11 chord.

it occurs at 1:45 on this clip.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> I hear it as bleak and it is as if "the protagonist" (not that I really think of this work as having a protagonist) is almost lost, almost gives in ... but it was a wrong turn and s/he finds a way back to a somewhat brighter place.


I think that's a very good way to describe it! Edward T. Cone, in his influential book _The Composer's Voice_ uses the term "persona" where you used "protagonist," but it's the same idea. Cone believed that in listening to expressive music it is natural to ask the question: "Whose expression is it?" He believed it a mistake to attribute the feeling in the music to the composer, proposing instead that it be attributed to a fictional being, the persona, inhabiting the work. It is much like referring to the voice expressing itself in a poem as the speaker of the poem, a notional being whose thoughts and feelings can't necessarily be attributed to the poet.



Phil loves classical said:


> yeah, it is impressionistic in feel. My chord identifer is saying it is a modified Cm11 chord.


That description fits nothing in the passage Forss points out and it would never be used to describe any chord Beethoven ever used in any work. Whatever this chord identifier is, avoid it like the plague for any analysis of classical music.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Forss said:


> There is, in the second movement of Beethoven's _Pathétique_, one _very_ peculiar, bleak, gloomy, vague, and _restless_ chord (11:45 in this clip) that captures a _real_ feeling of mine - one that I have never been able to provide a suitable expression.
> 
> Do you know what I mean, or does your _heart_ respond to that wonderful progression (11:37-45) in quite another way? I would love to hear your thoughts about it!
> 
> ...


I like very much the same detail you mention despite of not enjoying this interpretation

If you like this work a lot, and have not seen yet the link I'm posting, I recommend you taking some minutes for listening this:
http://opusdissonus.com.br/CIMIRRO_studio-master-class_001.htm

There is a master-class about the interpretation of the full piece using the Scientific System of interpretation and also the recording of the complete Sonata in 3 tracks plus a copy of the first edition in pdf (which is already available on internet in other sites too) - all of them for free download (check the audios in the yellow links in the end of the page).

The main "new" point is the melody which is used for building the 3 movements. Actually no recording shows clearly the melody as Beethoven wrote before this recording. So it is worth pay some attention to what is said there.

Best
Artur


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

Doesn't make me feel much, if anything


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Forss, you may also enjoy Andras Schiff's very thorough lecture on the Pathetique, done from the keyboard.

https://wigmore-hall.org.uk/images/audio/learning/schifflectures/08_C_minor_Op._13_Pathetique.mp3


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Forss, you may also enjoy Andras Schiff's very thorough lecture on the Pathetique, done from the keyboard.


Dear KenOC

This is exactly why I posted my link,

Schiff's lecture is far for being "thorough", there is no explanation around the themes between the movements nor he plays the theme as written by Beethoven (same mistake by all pianists! - which is one of the most weird things I have seen in classical music in all my years...)

He also assume Beethoven didn't know very well what he wrote since he turn the "Pathetique" in an example of early Mozart's sonata form - taking the ritornello (in 1st mov.) as a "da capo" (back to "Grave") and not to the "Allegro di molto e con brio con brio" as Beethoven wrote.

His lecture is in fact very good to explain what the "pianist's tradition" have made with the concepts of the composition itself if you compare with my analysis (which is just the first step in order to be really "thorough" if it is really possible.)

If anyone is "a little bit lazy" to check all the links in the website, here is the direct mp3 - by the way, I also used the piano for the examples.
http://opusdissonus.com.br/master-class_001_cimirro-beethoven-op13.mp3

And here the full Sonata
Mov.1
http://opusdissonus.com.br/cimirro_beethoven-op13m1.mp3
Mov.2
http://opusdissonus.com.br/cimirro_beethoven-op13m2.mp3
Mov.3
http://opusdissonus.com.br/cimirro_beethoven-op13m3.mp3

Best
Artur


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## DoenitzDerBedrohung (Jun 13, 2016)

It seems to me to be just an elegaic aside, a drifting away into the minor key as if to imply a momentary depressive sigh, but then gliding naturally back into the major key, as if to imply a redoubling of one's assiduity. But to me it doesn't seem disruptive or out of place at all --- it's just a dramatic device, a meandering off the mark for a moment only to reconcentrate the melody to a greater, more optimistic nobility of phrase, thus bringing the movement to a perfect, more intensified conclusion.


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## Forss (May 12, 2017)

DoenitzDerBedrohung said:


> It seems to me to be just an elegaic aside, a drifting away into the minor key as if to imply a momentary depressive sigh, but then gliding naturally back into the major key, as if to imply a redoubling of one's assiduity. But to me it doesn't seem disruptive or out of place at all --- it's just a dramatic device, a meandering off the mark for a moment only to reconcentrate the melody to a greater, more optimistic nobility of phrase, thus bringing the movement to a perfect, more intensified conclusion.


This is a very good interpretation! "Depressive sigh" is most accurate.


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