# Beethoven: Piano Sonata No. 29 'Hammerklavier'



## maxsnafu (Jan 21, 2015)

Someone please recommend a good modern recording of this work played at Beethoven's metronome marking (138).

Thanks for your help.

maxsnafu


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I don't know about metronomes, but for a fast one in the first movement that's commercially available try Michael Kosrstik. Less modern is Beveridge Webster, it used to be on YouTube, I don't think it's ever been off LP commercially elsewhere.

Peter Serkin is slightly slower maybe, you'll have to check for yourself (there are two recordings by him.)


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I don't either, but for me, the greatest performances are by Rudolf Serkin and Annie Fischer on modern piano and Ronald Brautigam, on a fortepiano reproduction from Beethoven's time.


----------



## Guest (Jun 28, 2017)

Korstick's outer movement tempos are close to Beethoven's MM, but his Adagio is glacial and clocks in at nearly 30 minutes!


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I forgot a good modern fast one, Charles Rosen (Epic) or the 1997 recording. The Epic one is very easily available and is probably better, the 1997 one was a free CD in one of his books.


----------



## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Not sure if you'd consider it modern enough or not, but as hpowders mentioned, Annie Fischer's is my recommendation. It is the greatest performance of the Hammerklavier ever recorded in my opinion, and its outer movements are close to Beethoven's metronome markings. The slow movement will take your breath away too.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Go with Igor Levit (piano) and you be fine, his recording got outstanding reviews


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Levit does good! Lots of people speak highly of Solomon's old recording, which I haven't heard (yet).


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Are you sure that you want to hear it played at such a fast tempo? The accuracy of that metronome marking has often been questioned. Some scholars have convincingly argued that Beethoven's metronome might have been faulty. See this article: 
http://www.ams.org/notices/201309/rnoti-p1146.pdf


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Levit does good! Lots of people speak highly of Solomon's old recording, which I haven't heard (yet).


Does Levit plays it close to the mm?


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Bettina said:


> Are you sure that you want to hear it played at such a fast tempo? The accuracy of that metronome marking has often been questioned. Some scholars have convincingly argued that Beethoven's metronome might have been faulty. See this article:
> http://www.ams.org/notices/201309/rnoti-p1146.pdf


I don't find that article at all convincing. Beethoven's metronome marks in a lot of other cases are quite reasonable, and I think it's unlikely that he would fail to notice a malfunctioning instrument in a specific case. After all, he was a master musician. His metronome is extant, but the swinging weight is missing. So we're unlikely to get a definitive answer.

For Mandryka, from ClassicsToday: "Levit takes the 'Hammerklavier' first-movement Allegro at a tempo close to the composer's admittedly optimistic metronome marking, yet the music ebbs and flows with characterful assurance. The Scherzo also takes bracing wing; it features biting cross-rhythmic accents and a ferocious ascending F major scale from bottom to top. You might describe Levit's masterful Adagio sostenuto as a fusion of Rudolf Serkin's classical reserve and Claudio Arrau's depth of tone and vocally oriented inflection. In the finale's introductory Largo, Levit piles into the jazzy broken-chord accelerando with shattering abandon, and brings plenty of drama, dynamic contrast, and varied articulations to the fugue."


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

It would be a mistake to play the Hammerklavier Adagio too quickly. I have about 17 recordings of the sonata and the timings of that movement varies from 15min to 24min. The Korstick recording mentioned above (which I don't have) comes in at a record longest: 28'42"! IMO the optimum time is around 18-19 minutes. 

The metronome markings can't be depended upon (as Bettina mentions above). Besides, modern grands have a markedly longer potential sustain time compared to the Broadwood that Beethoven composed the Hammerklavier on which allows for slower tempos/longer playing time. Beethoven was known to demand bigger and better pianos. Who knows how he would have played #29 on a 9 foot Steinway.

For this sonata, I prefer Gilels on DG or Barenboim on EMI. Arrau was pretty good also.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Levit does good! Lots of people speak highly of Solomon's old recording, which I haven't heard (yet).


Have ths one and it is a great performance

Others I have are

Serkn
Fischer
Kempff
Richter
Kovacevich
Ogden
Pollini
All of whom provide insight.
The point of the speeds is debatable. One wonders if Beetoven had been able to hear the music whether he would have set such speeds. As he wasn't able to hear the metronome either one wonders about it's validity. One thing is for sure though - he wanted fast speeds for the first movement.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DaveM said:


> It would be a mistake to play the Hammerklavier Adagio too quickly... the optimum time is around 18-19 minutes.


Levit hits 17:13 and is convincing, IMO. I've hear longer versions that also convinced. Korstick's 28'42" may be pushing it...


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

In general, for any Beethoven sonata, I'd start with Schiff and Gilels and go from there.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Several years ago I set about to play the Hammerklavier Adagio. I spent weeks working on & memorizing it. One day after having played a memorized 13 minutes, I had a revelation along the lines of (Clint Eastwood's) Dirty Harry's 'A man has to know his limitations' and gave it up. It took me a few years to be able to listen to that movement again. And it had been one of my top 3 favorites. It is now back to being one of my frequent listens. Yuja Wang does a really nice job on YouTube.


----------



## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Among best-known recordings:
For the first movement: only Schnabel is at the tempo of 130+.
For the last movement: (I remember the tempo indication is 144?), Arrau came near it.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DaveM said:


> Besides, modern grands have a markedly longer potential sustain time compared to the Broadwood that Beethoven composed the Hammerklavier on which allows for slower tempos/longer playing time.


This is an argument for not using a modern grand piano. There's no doubt that the first movement can be played fast that playing it fast gives it a distinctive character, and there's no reason to think that Beethoven didn't want that character,


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I don't find that article at all convincing. Beethoven's metronome marks in a lot of other cases are quite reasonable, and I think it's unlikely that he would fail to notice a malfunctioning instrument in a specific case. After all, he was a master musician. His metronome is extant, but the swinging weight is missing. So we're unlikely to get a definitive answer.
> 
> For Mandryka, from ClassicsToday: "Levit takes the 'Hammerklavier' first-movement Allegro at a tempo close to the composer's admittedly optimistic metronome marking, yet the music ebbs and flows with characterful assurance. The Scherzo also takes bracing wing; it features biting cross-rhythmic accents and a ferocious ascending F major scale from bottom to top. You might describe Levit's masterful Adagio sostenuto as a fusion of Rudolf Serkin's classical reserve and Claudio Arrau's depth of tone and vocally oriented inflection. In the finale's introductory Largo, Levit piles into the jazzy broken-chord accelerando with shattering abandon, and brings plenty of drama, dynamic contrast, and varied articulations to the fugue."


Thanks,I haven't heard it. But I was at a concert a couple of weeks ago where he played the last three sonatas and he was interesting, maybe more than interesting - a great pianist in the making I would say.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I think we have to take Beethoven's metronome markings (if they are by him) not too seriously as he didn't actually hear the music. For example, taking the slow movement of the month at the speed indicated makes it less effective imo. So we have to be careful. Stravinsky once told Colin Davis that he had taken a movement of one of his works too fast. When Davis said he had done it at the composer's own metronome marking, Stravinsky replied, "The metronome is only the beginning!"


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I think we have to take Beethoven's metronome markings (if they are by him) not too seriously as he didn't actually hear the music. For example, taking the slow movement of the month at the speed indicated makes it less effective imo. So we have to be careful. Stravinsky once told Colin Davis that he had taken a movement of one of his works too fast. When Davis said he had done it at the composer's own metronome marking, Stravinsky replied, "The metronome is only the beginning!"


Maybe you think we shouldn't take his pitch indications or rhythms too seriously either.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> This is an argument for not using a modern grand piano. There's no doubt that the first movement can be played fast that playing it fast gives it a distinctive character, and there's no reason to think that Beethoven didn't want that character,


That post was addressing the tempo of the Adagio. I believe that Beethoven would have loved to compose using the capability of the modern grand. I agree with what you're saying about the 1st movement. It was not unusual for Beethoven to have particularly fast movements preceding or following potentially very slow beautiful movements e.g. #14, #32.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Maybe you think we shouldn't take his pitch indications or rhythms too seriously either.


I think any serious interpreter would see the metronome markings differently.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I think any serious interpreter would see the metronome markings differently.


Why?

..............


----------



## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

Beethoven marks the first movement simply: Allegro.

Allegro: Lively.

He then offers us the wildly fast metronomic marking of 138 to the half note.

The way I have always interpreted this much discussed problem is pretty simple. Whether his metronome was faulty, or his hearing difficulties contributed to him losing touch with the physical limitations of the instrument, it doesn't really matter. 138 to the half note tells us it is a fleet _(very fleet!)_, Vivace type of Allegro, as opposed to a majestic one, (Maestoso).


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

lextune said:


> Beethoven marks the first movement simply: Allegro.
> 
> Allegro: Lively.
> 
> ...


This sounds very reasonable to me!


----------



## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

I have a personal theory on Beethoven's metronome markings, I think he exaggerated them. I've got no proof of this, just a suspicion.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

arnerich said:


> I have a personal theory on Beethoven's metronome markings, I think he exaggerated them. I've got no proof of this, just a suspicion.


You mean that you think the slow ones are too slow and the fast ones too fast? Why? Do you think he exaggerated anything else? Dynamics? Accents? Accidentals? Articulation?


----------



## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Everything I'm going to say is hypothetical but perhaps Beethoven didn't trust the intuition of performers during his time. It's easy to think people saw him as a deaf madman living in his own sound world. 

Have you ever seen the score of the gross fugue? There's practically a forte marked on every quarter note during the fugue. He could have easily written "sempre forte" but he obviously thought it necessary to write them constantly instead. 

There are examples of dynamic markings in the hammerklavier that might be considered exaggerations, measure 132 for example goes from a piano to a double forte on a single note in the bass but people rarely play it even forte. 

From his biography and even his own music his personality seems to be one of extremes so perhaps it's not surprising then that he'd have metronome markings that were also extreme. Again, just a personal suspicion.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Why?
> 
> ..............


The metronome, as Stravinsky said, is just the beginning.


----------



## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

Everything you need is on YouTube:lol:


----------



## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

As someone who's usually a indoctrinate HIPster, it's odd to say this, but for me screw the metronome numbers - it might not have been what Beethoven wanted, but I'm in love with Glenn Gould's "slow" interpretations of some of Beethoven's works. Such as the Hammerklavier: 




I just love how things are so well laid out, dignified, and most importantly, clear.
At higher tempos, I like it, but sometimes it makes me feel as if Beethoven is cramming too many important details in one space, just like late Baroque/Rococo (or, since I'm in Taiwan right now, traditional Taiwanese) architecture. Spirited, beautiful, yes, but sometimes a bit overwhelming and claustrophobic. I guess I'm more of a barefoot minimalist with Beethoven.

















and yes, this is coming from someone who likes Ton Koopman :lol:


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I listened to Gould's Hammerklavier just once. Didn't care for the outer movements, but (surprise) thought he nailed the Adagio. I'd better listen again.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It is often what the performer can make work. We can listen to some of Richter's Schubert and say, "too slow," and then the magic beans to work. I think it is better to look at the composer's written tempo indication rather than a metronome.


----------



## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> It is often what the performer can make work. We can listen to some of Richter's Schubert and say, "too slow," and then the magic beans to work. I think it is better to look at the composer's written tempo indication rather than a metronome.


Well, but same argument goes. Disregarding the metronome indications, how do we know what tempo - and what moods associated with it - would a composer perceive as "Allegro"? Of course, there are descriptions of the tempo provided by contemporary commentators, but those are abstract descriptions up to interpretation. We do have mechanical organs and probably other sources telling us precisely how the music was played at the time, but I don't know enough about them to comment.

I was talking to a piano player recently who shared my admiration of Glenn Gould, and he mentioned that although it's widely alleged that Gould used his eccentric tempi etc. to mock composers he didn't like such as Mozart of Beethoven, he doesn't think this is true. He thinks that Gould simply went with his (frequently eccentric, I guess) gut instincts without considering how others played.
His outtakes of Bach Sinfonia 15 do indeed somehow give me this impression. 




Whether this is true or not, I think we should listen to music with our gut instincts too, without too much regard to extraneous things such as tempo markings, authenticity etc. - although, of course, alternative interpretations can also yield much upon repeated listening.

I'm listening to Richter's Schubert and it is indeed beautiful.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Are you sure that you want to hear it played at such a fast tempo? The accuracy of that metronome marking has often been questioned. Some scholars have convincingly argued that *Beethoven's metronome might have been faulty. *See this article:
> http://www.ams.org/notices/201309/rnoti-p1146.pdf


Why do you want anything to do with this dude? He couldn't even get the metronome right. He was a walking disaster.

I spell trouble as "BEETHOVEN".


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Those above suggesting Beethoven's metronome markings are wrong might be missing a simple reason for this. Supposedly there is a metronome effect whereby those listening to music in their heads tend to set tempos that are too fast. Modern composers tend to be aware of this problem but Beethoven, who was among the first to set tempos this way, would not have been aware of it. I don't remember where I read this so take it with a grain of salt, but someone has probably researched it.


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Why do you want anything to do with this dude? He couldn't even get the metronome right. He was a walking disaster.
> 
> I spell trouble as "BEETHOVEN".


What can I say? I guess I'm just a sucker for incompetent, unsuccessful men! :lol:


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

You know there are so many places where a normal score leaves room for the interpretation of the performer, and normally tempo is one of them. Here we have beethoven trying to tighten up in this area, and people don't want to let him do it. It's as if people are hunting for ways to dismiss the score. But why this double standard? Everyone wants to play the pitches that he specified, why are people so keen to reject his MMs.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Here's an interesting piece. Was Lug's metronome actually right?

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/was-beethovens-metronome-wrong-9140958/


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> You know there are so many places where a normal score leaves room for the interpretation of the performer, and normally tempo is one of them. Here we have beethoven trying to tighten up in this area, and people don't want to let him do it. It's as if people are hunting for ways to dismiss the score. But why this double standard? Everyone wants to play the pitches that he specified, why are people so keen to reject his MMs.


That is fine but if the piece simply sounds too fast or is practically impossible to play at the speed then maybe we need to look again than blindly following a mechanical mark


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> What can I say? I guess I'm just a sucker for incompetent, unsuccessful men! :lol:


Wow! You've described me to a T....except for the incompetent, unsuccessful part.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> What can I say? I guess I'm just a sucker for incompetent, unsuccessful men! :lol:


I buy my metronomes at Costco. Always reliable, as is their salmon. I find if I stare at a slow metronome, it helps the time not go by so fast, a necessary evil when one "advances" in age.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DavidA said:


> That is fine but if the piece simply sounds too fast or is practically impossible to play at the speed then maybe we need to look again than blindly following a mechanical mark


Well it isn't impossible to play. Sounding too fast is another point that no one's raised before, too fast for what, I wonder.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just listening to the first movement of the Pastoral Symphony conducted by Chailly. It just sounds rushed despite the brilliant orchestral pkaying.


----------



## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Well it isn't impossible to play. Sounding too fast is another point that no one's raised before, too fast for what, I wonder.


...too fast to be 'musical'

Being musical supersedes everything. Or else one might as well listen to typewriters clacking.

138 to the half note, (indeed; anything approaching too close to that even), sounds terribly rushed. Fast is great. rushed is messy, or smudged. 
For instance, the link above of the young Igor Levit (whose Diabelli variations recording I really enjoyed), playing the Hemmerklavier was a big disappointment to me. So many 1st mvmt passages, that I have known so well, in so many recordings, ("fast" and "slow" ones), lose all their singing qualities in his performance. I did not love his 3rd mvmt Adagio very much either.

Since I have posted several times in this thread already, I should probably include my personal favorites....

Op.106 is the perfect example of music that is "better than it can be played" (to use Schnabel's words). So I do not believe there could ever be a definitive recording, but there are several that I love. For their musicality, most of all, but also some for their muscularity, or poise, or sheer beauty....the Adagio is endlessly fascinating.

In no particular order, for innumerable reasons, I love all of the following...

Pollini
Solomon
Brendel (I know of three recordings, they are all wonderful)
Gilels
Sokolov
Schiff
Lewis
Richter (always good in several different recordings; all live; all from 1975)

There are many other recordings that I don't necessarily love, but I do enjoy, _and prefer_, to the modern 'super-virtuoso' approach. A few off the top of my head:
Gould
Ernst Levy
Ashkenazy
Arrau
Vedernikov
Barenboim


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

bioluminescentsquid said:


> I was talking to a piano player recently who shared my admiration of Glenn Gould, and he mentioned that although it's widely alleged that Gould used his eccentric tempi etc. to mock composers he didn't like such as Mozart of Beethoven, he doesn't think this is true. He thinks that Gould simply went with his (frequently eccentric, I guess) gut instincts without considering how others played.


That makes the most sense when you consider his approach to the Goldberg Variations Aria (very fast in the earlier recording then very slow in the next and he revered Bach) and his lectures. Fwiw, I saw him play live, but that doesn't give me special insight into his thinking.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

lextune said:


> ...too fast to be 'musical'
> 
> Being musical supersedes everything. Or else one might as well listen to typewriters clacking.
> 
> ...


Have you heard Rosen (Epic)?

Maybe you're conflating musical and "singing" (Legato, long phrases, like violin music?) -- Beethoven may have been interested in other things (power, play . . . ) Given your tastes you should try Backhaus. And Yudina's.


----------



## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

I do know Rosen very well, I could have easily included his recording in my second list, (I did say it was off the top of my head).
I know Backhaus and Yudina as well. At last count I think I was approaching 50 recordings of the Hammerklavier....


----------



## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

DaveM said:


> Several years ago I set about to play the Hammerklavier Adagio. I spent weeks working on & memorizing it. One day after having played a memorized 13 minutes, I had a revelation along the lines of (Clint Eastwood's) Dirty Harry's 'A man has to know his limitations' and gave it up. It took me a few years to be able to listen to that movement again. And it had been one of my top 3 favorites. It is now back to being one of my frequent listens. Yuja Wang does a really nice job on YouTube.


You got that far and gave up??????? c'mon man! pick it up again!


----------



## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

bioluminescentsquid said:


> I was talking to a piano player recently who shared my admiration of Glenn Gould, and he mentioned that although it's widely alleged that Gould used his eccentric tempi etc. to mock composers he didn't like such as Mozart of Beethoven, he doesn't think this is true. He thinks that Gould simply went with his (frequently eccentric, I guess) gut instincts without considering how others played.


I love Glenn. And am intimately familiar with all his recordings. In my opinion you are correct about his Beethoven, and many other composers for that matter...

...but Gould willfully (and gleefully) distorted Mozart's piano sonatas, which he came right out and said he disliked.


----------



## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Those above suggesting Beethoven's metronome markings are wrong might be missing a simple reason for this. Supposedly there is a metronome effect whereby those listening to music in their heads tend to set tempos that are too fast. Modern composers tend to be aware of this problem but Beethoven, who was among the first to set tempos this way, would not have been aware of it. I don't remember where I read this so take it with a grain of salt, but someone has probably researched it.


I read this too in the liner notes of Jos Van Immerseels Symphony cycle but I think that would only make sense with orchestrated works no? I don't know the technicality of determining the metronome marks but it seems to me that with a solo piano piece you can set it as you play along (as opposed to in your head for orchestrated music) which should be spot on what Beethoven wanted.


----------



## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

bioluminescentsquid said:


> I was talking to a piano player recently who shared my admiration of Glenn Gould, and he mentioned that although it's widely alleged that Gould used his eccentric tempi etc. to mock composers he didn't like such as Mozart of Beethoven, he doesn't think this is true. He thinks that Gould simply went with his (frequently eccentric, I guess) gut instincts without considering how others played.


Gould sure did like Beethoven, only not all of his music. He didn't like the appassionata but nevertheless his record company made him record it and we all know the result :lol:

Listening to his Mozart sonata recordings indeed I ask myself if he did like Mozart at all, sounds a lot like mockery. Actually something Mozart would do himself to mock another composer.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Razumovskymas said:


> You got that far and gave up??????? c'mon man! pick it up again!


Funny you should say that because I didn't mention that Beethoven appeared to me in a dream and said, "It makes me happy that you love my Hammerklavier, but c'mon man!"


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

lextune said:


> I do know Rosen very well, I could have easily included his recording in my second list, (I did say it was off the top of my head).
> I know Backhaus and Yudina as well. At last count I think I was approaching 50 recordings of the Hammerklavier....


The reason I like Yudina in the first movement is to do with the way she punctuates the music with pauses to let it breath and to let the listener absorb the effects of each gesture, the way she creates ebb and flow by changing tempo, and the way she varies her touch. I think that what your favourite Pollini does is very thrilling, dazzling (it's a while since I heard the studio recording though, I have a couple of live performances, from Milan and Paris.)

I quite recently played Richter in Prague and really was impressed, it was probably the last op 106 on a modern piano I've heard properly (I prefer old instruments really, especially in this sonata, I think the music really benefits from the more interesting and colourful timbres.) And I heard Sokolov play it a few years ago, it was an enjoyable concert of course, I haven't heard the recording. There's a live one from Gilels which I remember thinking was really exceptional. Years ago I remember hearing Brendel play it on the car radio and I was so bowled over I had to stop driving and just listen, it was the live recording, I think from somewhere in Austria, on Philips - I still think it's very special. Because you mentioned it I've decided to listen to Levy tonight.

By the way, a really magic one by Backhaus came out a couple of years ago, from a concert in Ludwigsburg I think. Worth getting.


----------



## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

DaveM said:


> Funny you should say that because I didn't mention that Beethoven appeared to me in a dream and said, "It makes me happy that you love my Hammerklavier, but c'mon man!"


At least he showed up to give you some advice. He doesn't even bother giving some comments on what I produce on my midi keyboard.


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Razumovskymas said:


> At least he showed up to give you some advice. He doesn't even bother giving some comments on what I produce on my midi keyboard.


He's been ignoring me too! Even when I moan "oh, Ludwig!!" he never answers.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Anybody interested in this sonata, the issues of tempo or anything else, may want to listen to Schiff's lecture on it, given from the piano. It's by far the longest lecture in his complete series on the sonatas, at close to an hour and a half.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> He's been ignoring me too! Even when I moan "oh, Ludwig!!" he never answers.


You might do better with "Oh, Luigi"! Try moaning "con molto".


----------



## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

DaveM said:


> Funny you should say that because I didn't mention that Beethoven appeared to me in a dream and said, "It makes me happy that you love my Hammerklavier, but c'mon man!"


and why didn't you say: Hey Gary Oldman, get out of my bloody dream!!!!!
it seems he never gives up...


----------



## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

I could listen to Andras talk forever...


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

bioluminescentsquid said:


> Well, but same argument goes. Disregarding the metronome indications, how do we know what tempo - and what moods associated with it - would a composer perceive as "Allegro"? Of course, there are descriptions of the tempo provided by contemporary commentators, but those are abstract descriptions up to interpretation. We do have mechanical organs and probably other sources telling us precisely how the music was played at the time, but I don't know enough about them to comment.
> 
> I was talking to a piano player recently who shared my admiration of Glenn Gould, and he mentioned that although it's widely alleged that Gould used his eccentric tempi etc. to mock composers he didn't like such as Mozart of Beethoven, he doesn't think this is true. He thinks that Gould simply went with his (frequently eccentric, I guess) gut instincts without considering how others played.
> His outtakes of Bach Sinfonia 15 do indeed somehow give me this impression.
> ...


Yes. Experienced listeners know when tempos sound right. I don't need a metronome. Neither did Rudolf Serkin and Annie Fischer. It's called "musicianship". "Good taste", if you will. It is to those artists I turn to when I want to hear Beethoven "without surprises".

You know it when it sounds right.

Bach marked the tempo of the great third movement from the Second Unaccompanied Violin Sonata as "andante". Yet many players take it more like a "largo" because the music simply sounds better that way.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Anybody interested in this sonata, the issues of tempo or anything else, may want to listen to Schiff's lecture on it, given from the piano. It's by far the longest lecture in his complete series on the sonatas, at close to an hour and a half.


The man is a genius, always polite and musicianship like few others from his generation.


----------



## Jacred (Jan 14, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Anybody interested in this sonata, the issues of tempo or anything else, may want to listen to Schiff's lecture on it, given from the piano. It's by far the longest lecture in his complete series on the sonatas, at close to an hour and a half.


Funny, I was just listening to this series and am currently working through the Hammerklavier lecture. Very informative indeed.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

lextune said:


> I love Glenn. And am intimately familiar with all his recordings. In my opinion you are correct about his Beethoven, and many other composers for that matter...
> 
> ...but *Gould willfully (and gleefully) distorted Mozart's piano sonatas, which he came right out and said he disliked.*


I just could not understand why on earth he recorded them. They do his legacy no credit at all.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Listened to Richter last night. He sure takes no prisoners - they've all run away!


----------



## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

Razumovskymas said:


> Gould sure did like Beethoven, only not all of his music. He didn't like the appassionata but nevertheless his record company made him record it and we all know the result :lol:
> 
> Listening to his Mozart sonata recordings indeed I ask myself if he did like Mozart at all, sounds a lot like mockery. Actually something Mozart would do himself to mock another composer.


If you listen to his satirical interview, "a Gould Fantasy," he talks about one of his Mozart recordings. His earlier version is much slower and moderate, and of course there's the notorious faster one. He himself admits to liking the older recording, and says that the newer one was just him trying to get through the sonata, sort of like how he feels after playing a piece several times in concert. The interview makes me feel like that the common impression of "Gould playing too fast (or in the case of the Appassionata or Hammerklavier, too slow) to spite composers" is a bit simplistic. 
I'll have to admit that his Mozart isn't my favorite, and is often too fast. Although there're some brilliant parts, such as the Rondo alla Turca.






As I've mentioned, I like the unusual "slow" recordings by the likes of Gould, Richter, but they do take some time to get used to. I had a better learning curve, being weaned on Gould's Appassionata. But after that they're revelatory.


----------



## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Bruckner Anton said:


> Among best-known recordings:
> For the first movement: only Schnabel is at the tempo of 130+.
> For the last movement: (I remember the tempo indication is 144?), Arrau came near it.


One of my first encounters with the Hammerklavier was with the famous Schnabel recording and was always fascinated by the hash he made at the beginning of the first movement as though his fingers couldn't get round the tempo, but have gone on to admire his interpretation.
The list of great performers in this work have mostly been mentioned but I discovered by chance a towering performance by a pianist called Edith Vogel and was a free CD issued by BBC Music magazine. I have played many versions of the Hammerklavier but always find Vogel's approach ticks all the right boxes and never fails to impress.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I just could not understand why on earth he recorded them. They do his legacy no credit at all.


As I understand it, in those days EVERY important pianist for a major label was expected to record an LP with the Big-nickname Beethoven sonatas -- always the Moonlight plus the Appassionata and maybe the Pathetique, the Waldstein, or the Lebewohl. This was simply because such recordings by famous pianists were very good sellers.

Columbia pressured Gould on this, and he went along with exceptionally poor grace. Not only were his interpretations perverse, even by his standards, but he wrote program notes that were dismissive and even insulting to Beethoven, though they were very funny. I believe they're somewhere on the Internet!


----------



## Forss (May 12, 2017)

No one seems to have mentioned Vladimir Ashkenazy other than in passing? I was-and am, still-_very_ moved by his interpretation of the _Hammerklavier_, and I even got this subtle revelation while listening to his _Adagio_ for the first time; because suddenly, in a sort of Bergmanesque dreamlike sequence, I saw Beethoven himself before my eyes, in front of his piano, contemplating his own _fate_ over this beautiful, ephemeral variations on his now-famous themes, with his gaze pointed slightly upwards, to God. - This 'apotheosis of pain' and 'mausoleum of humanity's deepest sorrow', etc., I don't really sense, but only Reverence and Wisdom. Beethoven is saying, both to himself and to us: 'Amor fati!'


----------



## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

I see no reason to doubt Beethoven's metronome markings for the most part. He was deaf, not blind. He certainly would not be interested in the fact that most pianists have trouble meeting them.


----------



## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

I'm sure I've already replied somewhere but, if only to reiterate after just revisiting it, Annie Fischer's is  indisputably  the greatest rendition of the Hammerklavier ever recorded. INCREDIBLE.

On Spotify as follows: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51NwD5T3-SL.jpg

On Youtube:


----------



## Crystal (Aug 8, 2017)

I prefer Yuja Wang's version but for the other Beethoven sonatas I usually listen to Barenboim's.


----------



## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

There are some really cool dissonant moments in this sonata but meh, not my favorite one but not bad either


----------



## Holden4th (Jul 14, 2017)

I always go back to a recording that someone burnt onto a CD-R for me. It is Grigori Sokolov in Munich on November 18th 1975 and when I first heard it I was simply stunned. I have many feted versions of this sonata including Solomon, Gilels, Richter in Prague and London, Pollini, Annie Fischer, Rudolf Serkin, Barenboim (EMI), etc. But none, for me, match the deeply musical approach that Sokolov takes. The Adagio comes in at 23 minutes but it is just ethereal.


----------



## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Ronald Brautigam is the definite choice unless you dislike the fortepiano.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

ST4 said:


> There are some really cool dissonant moments in this sonata but meh, not my favorite one but not bad either


Before you give up on it try a faster one, one which tries to get near the MM. Same, by the way, in op,132. Beethoven knew what he was talking about.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Crystal said:


> I prefer Yuja Wang's version but for the other Beethoven sonatas I usually listen to Barenboim's.


Yuja Wang seems to be rarely mentioned in these circles perhaps because she is so strikingly attractive (and makes the most of it God bless her) which might give the impression that her performances are superficial. But that is a mistake; she is an incredibly gifted talent! I enjoy her Hammerklavier also and it's available on YouTube:


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

DaveM said:


> Yuja Wang seems to be rarely mentioned in these circles perhaps because she is so strikingly attractive (and makes the most of it God bless her) which might give the impression that her performances are superficial. But that is a mistake; she is an incredibly gifted talent! I enjoy her Hammerklavier also and it's available on YouTube:


I thought she was at her best here and I hope others will enjoy this performance. She's a phenomenal pianist and she's getting better with greater depth, maturity, and individuality.


----------

