# Composers and Performers to be Hated ...



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Composers or performers, we all need to know what we like. Perhaps it is part of our identity or maybe it is just a simple matter of finding the most rewarding experiences in crowded market place. But what about knowing who we don't like? I have begun to think that I need in some way to dislike some composers and performers. The trouble is that I then avoid them but I have had a few experiences of finding something by them that I really like, and then more and then .... it turns out I don't hate them at all! But there are some who I consistently dislike even after trying lots of different things by them.

*Are there performers, or composers from the uncontroversial period 1700-1900, who you firmly dislike and avoid? And what is the value to you of your "prejudice" against them?*


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Hate is a pretty strong word. Love thy neighbor, ya know...

No one can hate any performer in the 200 years you state - it's impossible to have heard them. But composers are more prone to shunning - and of the whole lot of composers in those centuries, one name rises above (below?) all others whose music I utterly detest: *Ludwig Minkus*. I don't own any recordings of his insipid writing, and the one time I got hired to play one of the ballets, Don Quixote, was enough. Awful, awful music.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I've added a couple of commas to make my meaning clearer. And feel free to think "don't like" instead of "hate". I've never heard of Minkus but will avoid him unless someone mounts a convincing defense.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Two composers that come to mind are Vivaldi and Mendelssohn. With Vivaldi, I just don't connect; his music bounces off me.

I do enjoy Mendelssohn's string quartets and piano trios; that's all. I find his solo piano music particularly insipid, and his famous Octet irritates me.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Why do you think you need to dislike some composers and performers? Like mbhaub points out, it's impossible to have heard any performers from before 1900. I can't say I "hate" any composer or performer at all. Dislike the majority of their output, yes. Schumann is probably my most prolific example from before 1900.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ With the commas that I added a while ago it is now clear that the period 1700-1900 applies to composers, not performers. "Disliking the majority of their music" is what I'm talking about. Feel free to avoid the word hate if it is sensitive for you.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Some prestigious performers I just can’t come around on:

Schnabel
Rubinstein
Reiner
Harnoncourt
Gould
Herreweghe
Fournier
Toscanini
Heifetz (at least the late stereo recordings)

Doesn’t mean I don’t listen to their recordings; it’s an ongoing process. I just struggle to understand the immense praise that is often lavished upon them!


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Famous composers I can do without altogether: Handel, Corelli, Telemann, Scarlatti's.
Famous composers that I like only one work of: Verdi
Famous composers that I like, but a lot less than most here: Beethoven, Schumann


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> No one can hate any performer in the 200 years you state - it's impossible to have heard them. But composers are more prone to shunning - and of the whole lot of composers in those centuries, one name rises above (below?) all others whose music I utterly detest: *Ludwig Minkus*. I don't own any recordings of his insipid writing, and the one time I got hired to play one of the ballets, Don Quixote, was enough. Awful, awful music.


You and John Lanchbery :lol:


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Becca said:


> You and John Lanchbery :lol:


I have a real beef with Lanchberry. He recorded The Nutcracker but for some insane, egotistical reason decided it needed another number - so he orchestrated one of Tchaikovsky's piano works and inserts it into the Divertissement in Act II. The orchestration is more John Williams than the Russian master, it completely destroys the flow of the music and ruined what was otherwise a pretty good reading of the score. So add John Lanchberry to my list.


----------



## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Mendelssohn and Dvorak for me. Bulldog already described why for Mendelssohn better than I could. 

Dvorak is fun and catchy but not much more than that for me, I don't get his outsized popularity. Why is he 10 times more popular than Smetana, who is 10 times the composer he is for instance? I don't get it.

I don't really connect with Schumann outside of his lieder.


----------



## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Art Rock said:


> Famous composers that I like only one work of: Verdi


Which one? The Requiem?


----------



## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

In practical terms, it comes down for me to this: There are some big-name composers from the various eras whose music I make no special effort to collect and listen to. i certainly don't attempt to listen to as many conductors/performers interpreting their compositions as I can, which is what I like to do with my favorite composers. I do own CDs of their music but I acquired them incidentally, and I do listen to them on the radio incidentally. I'd say I like their music, but as Art Rock said, "a lot less than most here."

Baroque: Handel, Telemann
Classical: Mozart
Romantic: Schumann, Scriabin (if I can shoe-horn him into this era)
Modernist (the era I listen to the most): Schoenberg, Britten

This just covers the acknowledged big names. I don't really pay attention to lesser names from any era but Modernist anyway.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I know I'm being silly, but I avoid Segovia, Karajan and Satie. There is no value in it


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> I have a real beef with Lanchberry. He recorded The Nutcracker but for some insane, egotistical reason decided it needed another number - so he orchestrated one of Tchaikovsky's piano works and inserts it into the Divertissement in Act II. The orchestration is more John Williams than the Russian master, it completely destroys the flow of the music and ruined what was otherwise a pretty good reading of the score. So add John Lanchberry to my list.


I can easily believe that it was more down to the choreographer who decided that he wanted to insert something extra and so needed more music, not an unusual occurrence.


----------



## Joachim Raff (Jan 31, 2020)

Teodor Currentzis !


----------



## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> I have a real beef with Lanchberry. He recorded The Nutcracker but for some insane, egotistical reason decided it needed another number - so he orchestrated one of Tchaikovsky's piano works and inserts it into the Divertissement in Act II. *The orchestration is more John Williams than the Russian master*, it completely destroys the flow of the music and ruined what was otherwise a pretty good reading of the score. So add John Lanchberry to my list.


I listened to the section you mentioned, and it sounds nothing like maestro Williams. What did you mean?


----------



## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

A composer whose music I don't really connect with and tend to avoid is Albert Ketèlbey, but perhaps he isn't valid for this thread because he died after 1900. I also don't seem to like Alessandro Scarlatti or Nunes Garcia, although I admit I don't know enough of their music and plan to continue listening to them in the next years.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Composers whose music does little for me (not close to hate):
Rachmaninoff 
Delius

Performers/Conductors:
Karajan
Leinsdorf

No thanx.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

howlingfantods said:


> Which one? The Requiem?


Got it on one.


----------



## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> Composers and Performers to be Hated ...


I firmly believe that there is good music and there is great music, there is no bad music.
Hence, I avoid no one.


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

There isn't anything I would outright refuse to listen to, whether it be a particular composer or conductor/orchestra. With that said, Mahler still hasn't "clicked" for me. I break out his symphonies every few months and never get terribly far.


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I found this browsing for something else, very interesting. 

Musicians you don't like.


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

The 1900 restriction on performers is a bit silly since we have no real recordings before then. So I'll take the liberty of naming a modern performer I can't stand:

Valentina Lisitsa. A deplorable, racist, human being with awful pianistic taste and the most mainstream, overplayed, repertory in existence.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I will say this again - the sentence in the OP is clear: it is composers, not performers, who are restricted to 1700-1900.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

As others have mentioned, hate is a strong word. I'm not sure if there are that many composers from that time period that I actively dislike either. 

There are some famous composers who don't figure much in my collection and I'm not sure why. I have very little by Haydn (just the Nelson Mass and The Creation, and Argercih playing the first piano concerto, a disc I bought for its Shostakovich coupling) and Mendelssohn (the violin concerto). Schumann is confined to just Lieder, the Piano Quintet and some of his piano works.

I wouldn't say I actively disliked any of them, just that I rarely feel inclined to seek them out.

With performers there are a few I definitely avoid. Cecilia Bartoli is one and, sad to say, with a few notable exceptions, Joan Sutherland is usually another. I don't have any recordings featuring Alfred Brendel as I feel he always fusses the music too much. I don't much like Solti either, especially in Verdi.

To be honest, though, I prefer to concentrate on the composers and performers I do like rather than those I don't.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I agree that hate is too strong and I can't think of a composer I hate (although I am certainly no big fan of Mendelssohn and Saint-Saens). For performers, also, hate maybe too strong but there have been conductors who I have avoided after disliking some of their work. Rattle was one although I am now thinking that my objections apply mostly to his earlier work. That's the trouble: once I feel convinced that I don't like someone I avoid them and may miss evidence that they are good after all. Mackerras is another and I have listened and even bought many of his recordings. But in the end I can't think of one that has not been bettered by others. Jarvi, as well, often seems a bit boring to me.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Could be, but why record it that way?


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I couldn't use the word 'hate' in this context because I would feel that I am insulting a person's talent even if I have no affection for a certain composer's output or a performer's music-making. I think I'm happier with the expression 'being averse to..'. 

And that composer is Arthur Sullivan - an undeniably gifted man when it came to melody but any of his light operas can bring me out in a violent rash.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

It's garish, flashy and not balanced the way Tchaikovsky scores. Tchaik has a distinctive sound; it's unique. The way he doubles and interlocks woodwinds. His use of the brass and percussion section. It is extremely difficult for anyone to write something that perfectly imitates another composer. Try that completion of the 7th symphony - a nice attempt, but it still doesn't have that special Tchaikovsky sound. Same problem here. Hard to explain without a score.


----------



## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Some prestigious performers I just can't come around on:
> 
> Schnabel
> Rubinstein
> ...


I have to Like this because Reiner, Rubinstein, and Heifetz are some of my very favorites and it intrigues me that you don't relate to their music making. I don't like every single one of their performances -- for example, I really don't like Rubinstein's interpretations of the Brahms Piano Concerti -- but I think I am able to articulate the various reasons I especially appreciate these musicians. If you feel like it, I'd love to hear your take on them.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Why did you feel the need to start another "Composers (or performers) I don't like" thread when there are so many?

Is the novelty here that you are asking specifically if we *need* to hate or just dislike some people who produce music? No, I would say we don't need to, we just do, because no one's tastes encompass everything.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

seitzpf said:


> I have to Like this because Reiner, Rubinstein, and Heifetz are some of my very favorites and it intrigues me that you don't relate to their music making. I don't like every single one of their performances -- for example, I really don't like Rubinstein's interpretations of the Brahms Piano Concerti -- but I think I am able to articulate the various reasons I especially appreciate these musicians. If you feel like it, I'd love to hear your take on them.


Fair enough! After all, I can't be expected to express dislike for such titans of music without being ready to defend my positions For all three of them, it has to do with what I perceive as a lack of feeling and connection with the entire reason for making music. I find myself asking, "what's the point of doing this if you're just going to plow through it with maximum economy, shorn of personal and interpretive nuance?" Undoubtedly, their technical giftings were enormous but if you compare, say; Rubinstein's Beethoven to Gilels, Reiner's La Mer to Stokowski's, and the Heifetz/Reiner Brahms concerto with Oistrakh, you'll hear the difference immediately. Rubinstein I always find sounds contrived in its attempts to be "unforced." Mostly sounds too aloof and rushed to me with some exceptions like his Chopin Nocturnes. Reiner was known for his extreme emphasis on economy, and this leads to most of his performances sounding very artificial and mechanical IMO. Really amazing to hear just how well an orchestra can play. But is it music? Heifetz is a bit different, as I like a lot of stuff he did with his soaring, brilliant tone and youthful energy. His early recordings (in poor sound) are very impressive indeed, and I like a lot of his chamber collaborations. But the Living Stereo recordings that everyone knows him from I find to be as lifeless as a hunk of stone. And please do explain why you love them! I'd be very interested in seeing if I can gain new perspectives and maybe a bit of appreciation for their art.


----------



## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Although I respect his idiosyncratic artistic vision, I dislike Erik Satie`s music immensely and I won`t be listening any more of him unless an entirely different listening experience is promised...

As for performers, I`m afraid I dislike almost everything by Heifetz including his chamber music collaborations. I agree with Allegro Con Brio`s criticism considering his lifeless and mechanical approach but in addition I also dislike his famous tone. His distinct and dominant tone is the very reason I dislike his chamber collaborations which is a pity because his collaborators are often favourites of mine. I`m not so negative with the more virtuostic repertoire such as Paganini but he is not much of a favourite either...

Grigory Sokolov is also another performer that I`m not feeling grand with. But I only know of his renditions of _the Three Bs_ and I`m very critical with them generally. So, he is not exactly on my blacklist yet, one of these days I might want to try his Scriabin...


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Highwayman said:


> Although I respect his idiosyncratic artistic vision, I dislike Erik Satie`s music immensely and I won`t be listening any more of him unless an entirely different listening experience is promised...
> 
> As for performers, I`m afraid I dislike almost everything by Heifetz including his chamber music collaborations. I agree with Allegro Con Brio`s criticism considering his lifeless and mechanical approach but in addition I also dislike his famous tone. His distinct and dominant tone is the very reason I dislike his chamber collaborations which is a pity because his collaborators are often favourites of mine. I`m not so negative with the more virtuostic repertoire such as Paganini but he is not much of a favourite either...
> 
> Grigory Sokolov is also another performer that I`m not feeling grand with. But I only know of his renditions of _the Three Bs_ and I`m very critical with them generally. So, he is not exactly on my blacklist yet, one of these days I might want to try his Scriabin...


Yes, I'm not a Sokolov fan either. He seems to have a dedicated fanbase who searches out every one of his non-commercially-available recordings, but I have failed to hear anything special in him. I thought his Chopin Preludes and Art of Fugue were extremely precious and reserved, like he was afraid to really let loose. I do want to hear his Rach 3rd Concerto from YouTube, though.

And one more pianist, possibly my most disliked of all: Lang Lang. Such an amazing talent, wasted on crowd-pleasing theatrics.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> And one more pianist, possibly my most disliked of all: Lang Lang. Such an amazing talent, wasted on crowd-pleasing theatrics.


Agreed, except that I don't consider him an amazing talent. I suppose he has high-level technical skills, but plenty of other pianists do also. Further, skill is not the same thing as talent, insight or artistry.


----------



## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Any composer who has written music like this:






I can't stand it. Even it sounds too sissy. Sorry for fans of those composers/works.


----------



## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Performers: as a conductor, Ton Koopman. Terrible, simply unappealing and insipid to my tastes.

Also partly Celibidache because of his often sluggish conducting. For now, those gentlemen.


----------



## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> Got it on one.


I asked the same question mentally and bingo!


----------



## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Bulldog said:


> Agreed, except that I don't consider him an amazing talent. I suppose he has high-level technical skills, but plenty of other pianists do also. Further, skill is not the same thing as talent, insight or artistry.


I get tired of hearing the word "genius" being thrown around to describe anyone and everyone. Truth is we do not know what it is and why it seems to be elusive to many who appear to have some ability to create or play music. For me some grow into the position but were never child prodigies.

Put another way: Beethoven personality or his essential being was the driving force behind music. He was not some musical talent that nature bestowed upon him but rather he was an ***-kicker who decided to make music his way. Performers are players who somehow have to have the inner being to connect with the music that still "lives" in some way and take the notes they see and make it come alive. So being a musical talent is really not primary but the "essential" is something that either comes out of the person eventually or not.


----------



## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I find Hermann Scherchen's conducting tasteless in virtually every recording.

Just listen to this sacrilege...


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Open Book said:


> Why did you feel the need to start another "Composers (or performers) I don't like" thread when there are so many?
> 
> Is the novelty here that you are asking specifically if we *need* to hate or just dislike some people who produce music? No, I would say we don't need to, we just do, because no one's tastes encompass everything.


I have wondered that myself! I was after something different - more of a sense of how making a negative decision can block me (us?) from exploring that composer or performer further. But of course the thread has moved along more familiar lines of celebrating our dislikes. My bad.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I have wondered that myself! I was after something different - more of a sense of how making a negative decision can block me (us?) from exploring that composer or performer further. But of course the thread has moved along more familiar lines of celebrating our dislikes. My bad.


I listen to a lot of music randomly, either on the radio, on my cable company's classical music TV stations, or from youtube autoplay where other stuff just comes up after things you request are finished playing. I usually don't even read or hear who the composer is until the very end so I tend to accept whatever is played unless it's really awful to my ears. I feel intrigued when I listen in this way and can't wait to find out the composer. I am often surprised by an attractive piece by a composer I thought I didn't like. My prior prejudices don't get in the way with this kind of listening.

If we develop prejudices and give up on seeking out some composers it's probably because there is so much music and so little time to waste. The worst part of developing likes and dislikes is when someone here kindly suggests something to listen to and I dislike it. It's all I can do to not say, How can you listen to this? What do you see in it anyway?

Art Rock has been starting Sharing threads where a few people propose obscure pieces they think are deserving and that might delight others. Participants have to listen and write their assessment of the pieces including their own. That experience has taught me a lot. Tolerance for others' tastes, giving things that are different from your normal listening habits a fair shake, saying you don't like something in a non-snarky way (which I could have done better). We always deep inside think we're right and others are wrong, we're hard to change, I think.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Why does it matter?


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

MusicSybarite said:


> Any composer who has written music like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lully was apparently not a very nice person, but I find his music beautiful and uplifting. Listening to some of this clip actually reminds me of how much I love Lully's music.


----------



## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Fair enough! After all, I can't be expected to express dislike for such titans of music without being ready to defend my positions For all three of them, it has to do with what I perceive as a lack of feeling and connection with the entire reason for making music. I find myself asking, "what's the point of doing this if you're just going to plow through it with maximum economy, shorn of personal and interpretive nuance?" Undoubtedly, their technical giftings were enormous but if you compare, say; Rubinstein's Beethoven to Gilels, Reiner's La Mer to Stokowski's, and the Heifetz/Reiner Brahms concerto with Oistrakh, you'll hear the difference immediately. Rubinstein I always find sounds contrived in its attempts to be "unforced." Mostly sounds too aloof and rushed to me with some exceptions like his Chopin Nocturnes. Reiner was known for his extreme emphasis on economy, and this leads to most of his performances sounding very artificial and mechanical IMO. Really amazing to hear just how well an orchestra can play. But is it music? Heifetz is a bit different, as I like a lot of stuff he did with his soaring, brilliant tone and youthful energy. His early recordings (in poor sound) are very impressive indeed, and I like a lot of his chamber collaborations. But the Living Stereo recordings that everyone knows him from I find to be as lifeless as a hunk of stone. And please do explain why you love them! I'd be very interested in seeing if I can gain new perspectives and maybe a bit of appreciation for their art.


Thanks so much for this! What a pleasure to read your concise but vivid description of your perceptions of Reiner, Heifetz, and Rubinstein. What you say about a lack of feeling is more or less what I expected, but your analysis is deeper than that and you provide specific examples of performers who have more feeling for comparison. Really, I appreciate your take on this, as it is this kind of perception that makes for what I consider one of the most important discussion points concerning serious music.

As for my attachment to these three, I wil admit that it's partly sentimental. As a boy, adolescent, and young man, these musicians made a deep impression on me and essentially defined conducting, violin, and piano performance. My dad collected Living Stereo LPs. Especially because my family lived in the Chicago area, my dad was a Reiner fan, though he bucked popular opinion later by backing Martinon strongly. The first CSO concert I attended was conducted by Martinon. These experiences are profoundly meaningful to me. I guess I am conservative by nature.

As an adult, I have through the years confronted my attachment to these three performers and thought for a long time that I only really appreciated restraint and "controlled brilliance." I despised what I considered impertinent liberties taken with a composer's scores. You know that kind of approach. But I recognized increasingly that this was hypocritical, because I actually appreciate very much a less restrained, more liberal interpretation of most types of music. Then it just becomes a question of *whose* interpretation is appealing and whose is less so or even offensive. You mention Stokowski, and I love him. I just relate somehow to his conceptions of just about everything he recorded. Among violinists, I am crazy about Arturo Demoni, who, if you've heard him, is extremely emotive in the Fritz Kreisler style. And among pianists, I admire above all John Browning, whose interpretations are precise but (to me) full of feeling (hear especially his performances of Barber), and my favorite performer of the Brahms piano concertos is Arrau, a pretty unrestrained (though technically precise) artist, and then we get into the really emotional stuff with Liszt, where I have recently been binging on Raymond Lewenthal. So it's not that I don't like emotive performances per se, just that I only relate positively to certain artists' conceptions. Others' I find actually offensive, but to each his own, of course.

Reiner, Heifetz, and Rubinstein are cornerstones of my musical experiences because they provide essential points of reference against which I compare other conductors, vioinists, and pianists. I also truly enjoy their music -- they are not simply foils for other, more emotive performers. I guess that's where your tastes and mine are different. Vive la difference!


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Fair enough! After all, I can't be expected to express dislike for such titans of music without being ready to defend my positions For all three of them, it has to do with what I perceive as a lack of feeling and connection with the entire reason for making music. I find myself asking, "what's the point of doing this if you're just going to plow through it with maximum economy, shorn of personal and interpretive nuance?" Undoubtedly, their technical giftings were enormous but if you compare, say; Rubinstein's Beethoven to Gilels, Reiner's La Mer to Stokowski's, and the Heifetz/Reiner Brahms concerto with Oistrakh, you'll hear the difference immediately. Rubinstein I always find sounds contrived in its attempts to be "unforced." Mostly sounds too aloof and rushed to me with some exceptions like his Chopin Nocturnes. Reiner was known for his extreme emphasis on economy, and this leads to most of his performances sounding very artificial and mechanical IMO. Really amazing to hear just how well an orchestra can play. But is it music? Heifetz is a bit different, as I like a lot of stuff he did with his soaring, brilliant tone and youthful energy. His early recordings (in poor sound) are very impressive indeed, and I like a lot of his chamber collaborations. But the Living Stereo recordings that everyone knows him from I find to be as lifeless as a hunk of stone. And please do explain why you love them! I'd be very interested in seeing if I can gain new perspectives and maybe a bit of appreciation for their art.


I'm sorry, to claim that Heifetz, Reiner, Rubinstein are cold, mechanical, unexpressive is just plain nonsense...these wonderful artists have given us some of the most exciting, brilliant, superbly executed performances of all-time..for me, Reiner and Heifetz are NEVER merely cold and unexpressive...there is always drive, fire, direction...drama...just what the listener should hope for..


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

seitzpf said:


> Thanks so much for this! What a pleasure to read your concise but vivid description of your perceptions of Reiner, Heifetz, and Rubinstein. What you say about a lack of feeling is more or less what I expected, but your analysis is deeper than that and you provide specific examples of performers who have more feeling for comparison. Really, I appreciate your take on this, as it is this kind of perception that makes for what I consider one of the most important discussion points concerning serious music.
> 
> As for my attachment to these three, I wil admit that it's partly sentimental. As a boy, adolescent, and young man, these musicians made a deep impression on me and essentially defined conducting, violin, and piano performance. My dad collected Living Stereo LPs. Especially because my family lived in the Chicago area, my dad was a Reiner fan, though he bucked popular opinion later by backing Martinon strongly. The first CSO concert I attended was conducted by Martinon. These experiences are profoundly meaningful to me. I guess I am conservative by nature.
> 
> ...


Always great to read such well-expressed opinions! When it comes down to it, what I love most about the art of performance and interpretation is how such radically different approaches can yield equally valid final results. Some people box themselves into a certain style and refuse to budge. My only criteria is being able to see passion and humanity beyond the exterior. It's why I love, for example, Furtwangler, Barbirolli, and Klemperer's Eroicas; but also Skrowaczewski, Toscanini, and other "lean, mean" approaches. When performance becomes a regurgitation of the score, it becomes boring for me. One thing is for sure: Rubinstein, Heifetz, and Reiner may not be to all our tastes, but no one can deny that they lacked deeply personal modes of communication for their art.



> I'm sorry, to claim that Heifetz, Reiner, Rubinstein are cold, mechanical, unexpressive is just plain nonsense...these wonderful artists have given us some of the most exciting, brilliant, superbly executed performances of all-time..for me, Reiner and Heifetz are NEVER merely cold and unexpressive...there is always drive, fire, direction...drama...just what the listener should hope for..


I definitely hear the drive, fire, direction, and drama. And I like it in many works, like Heifetz's Mendelssohn Octet and Reiner's Bartok Concerto for Orchestra. But IMO, these performers tend to utilize that approach across all repertoire rather than adjusting to the demands of the music. For example, La Mer and Scheherazade are sumptuous scores bursting with colors that are meant to be savored, and Reiner just seems to turn them into dry exercises for the orchestra. Chopin's Ballades and Beethoven's sonatas need to be handled with an ebb-and-flow of pacing and well-placed inflections, and Rubinstein just plays straight. I just tend to prefer more expressive, improvisatory type performances, even if they come at the cost of wrong notes and deviation from the score, rather than the formal, polished professionalism of these musicians. They're expressive in their own way, but just not the type I prefer. All a matter of preference.


----------



## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

MusicSybarite said:


> Performers: as a conductor, Ton Koopman. Terrible, simply unappealing and insipid to my tastes.
> 
> Also partly Celibidache because of his often sluggish conducting. For now, those gentlemen.


Wow, Koopman is the last musician I'd have thought of in this connection! Wondering what conductors of Baroque materials you like. Your post makes me realize that I've been going along for decades believing that Koopman is *it* and not looking any further. You really don't like the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra's performances of the Brandenburg Concerti (within the HIP world view)?


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

seitzpf said:


> Wow, Koopman is the last musician I'd have thought of in this connection! Wondering what conductors of Baroque materials you like. Your post makes me realize that I've been going along for decades believing that Koopman is *it* and not looking any further. You really don't like the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra's performances of the Brandenburg Concerti (within the HIP world view)?


Koopman is a fine conductor, but there are a few I prefer - Suzuki, Gardiner, Herreweghe, and Christophers. Concerning the Brandenburg Concertos (also Orchestral Suites), Goebel is my guy.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

seitzpf said:


> Wow, Koopman is the last musician I'd have thought of in this connection! Wondering what conductors of Baroque materials you like. Your post makes me realize that I've been going along for decades believing that Koopman is *it* and not looking any further. You really don't like the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra's performances of the Brandenburg Concerti (within the HIP world view)?


I'm just judging from the Bach cantata recordings, but I'm not a big Koopman fan either (though he was my favorite for the cantatas for a while). Suzuki is, by far, my prime HIP Bach guy. His recordings have a sort of prayerful intimacy and joy that just grabs me. Koopman has a few good cantatas but many are ruined by poor soloists (including a positively dreadful countertenor) and unnecessarily fast tempi. I'll have to try those Brandenburgs though.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

People talking about Koopman, Suziki, Heifetz, Rubinstein? I thought it was the period 1700-1900 or am I missing something?


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

That timeline is just for composers, David.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Tbh, I can find merit in most performers in at least one recording. There's a few I'm not keen on but even those I largely don't like have produced at least one cracker. Sometimes I have trouble understanding the hype around certain conductors (I can think of one often referred to as 'great' who left us with many exaggerated and sometimes poorly controlled performances) but it's each to their own. In the other thread like this I picked out Maisky as a performer I'm not mad on but he is a fantastic musician and has made some very good recordings. I just find his overuse of rubato later in his career to be OTT and irritable. There's no doubting the guy's technical skill. I come to every new recording with a blank sheet and no bias . Unfortunately some others don't.


----------



## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

seitzpf said:


> Wow, Koopman is the last musician I'd have thought of in this connection! Wondering what conductors of Baroque materials you like. Your post makes me realize that I've been going along for decades believing that Koopman is *it* and not looking any further. *You really don't like the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra's performances of the Brandenburg Concerti (within the HIP world view)?*


No, I don't!! Those performances lack much spirit, spark, they're fast to my ears, somehow they don't click on me at all. But to be clear: I don't enjoy historical intruments performances, I've always preferred a brighter sound from modern instruments, and I'm not a big fan of Baroque music either, though I do find pleasure in many works by several composers. I guess it's just me as most of people prefer to listen to this music performed being faithful to the sound of those ages.

Having said that, the Baroque music conductors I enjoy the most are: Karl Richter, Raymond Leppard, Karl Münchinger, Helmuth Rilling, Neville Marriner, Christopher Hogwood and John Elliot Gardiner.

Now I remembered another conductor I tend to don't enjoy: Harnoncourt.


----------



## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Simon Rattle is the only major conductor from whom I couldn't name a single recording to recommend.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Ulfilas said:


> Simon Rattle is the only major conductor from whom I couldn't name a single recording to recommend.


I don't need your recommendations. I've found some good ones by Rattle. And to tell you the truth, this thread sucks! How do you think it looks to newcomers looking to get into classical music?


----------



## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

I did just think of one, the Messiaen Éclairs sur l'Au-delà. Is this thread directed towards newcomers? 

All I mean is, if someone asked me for a recommendation for some standard part of the repertory (Beethoven, Bruckner, Brahms, Mahler, Debussy, Ravel), there's no recording of his I'd recommend.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Ulfilas said:


> I did just think of one, the Messiaen Éclairs sur l'Au-delà. Is this thread directed towards newcomers?
> 
> All I mean is, if someone asked me for a recommendation for some standard part of the repertory (Beethoven, Bruckner, Brahms, Mahler, Debussy, Ravel), there's no recording of his I'd recommend.


No one is asking you. But new people come to this forum all the time. Maybe they are inexperienced and looking to try things. A four page thread of negative comments on composers and performers is counterproductive.


----------



## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

The OP was asking that question generally, based on our own personal tastes. I'm not asking anybody to agree with me.


----------



## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Just off the top of my head, if someone was looking for a completed four movement version of Bruckner's 9th, Rattle's recording would be an excellent choice. His recording of Gershwin's Porgy and Bess is my favorite of the opera, and his Szymanowski is uniformly great.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Ulfilas said:


> Simon Rattle is the only major conductor from whom I couldn't name a single recording to recommend.


I have run quite a number of blind comparison threads where the performers were not known to the listeners and it is interesting just how often a Rattle performance has been well thought of by those who claim not to like him.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> One thing is for sure: Rubinstein, Heifetz, and Reiner may not be to all our tastes, but no one can deny that they lacked deeply personal modes of communication for their art.


Sure one can deny it, easily and truthfully, because it is nonsense....accurate and precise does not necessarily mean cold and mechanical...false equation...



> I definitely hear the drive, fire, direction, and drama. And I like it in many works, like Heifetz's Mendelssohn Octet and Reiner's Bartok Concerto for Orchestra. But IMO, these performers tend to utilize that approach across all repertoire rather than adjusting to the demands of the music. For example, La Mer and Scheherazade are sumptuous scores bursting with colors that are meant to be savored, and Reiner just seems to turn them into dry exercises for the orchestra.


Dry exercises for orchestra?? Reiner's Sheherazade, La Mer?? You've got to be kidding....I totally reject the premise that accuracy, adherence to the score equates with cold, technical insensitivity...some claim that Toscanini was a cold, metronomic timebeater, that Heifetz was merely a flashy technician without expressive depth...to me that is just nonsense...there is tremendous flexibility, expression and flow to their performances...the orchestra control, the power, the flexibility are amazing..


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

elgars ghost said:


> That timeline is just for composers, David.


Then there must be something wrong with my reading of the English language:

'Are there *performers*, or composers from the uncontroversial period 1700-1900, who you firmly dislike and avoid?'


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I am also not happy with using the word 'hate'. It seems an 'in' word these days and is used of people we disagree with. For example, if we disagree about 'Brexit' it is assumed we 'hate' the other side. I don't hate the people who disagree with me as I've been taught to agree to differ. I have discussions with friends and family with those who differ with me and we remain friends. 
Nor do I 'hate' musicians and composers whose music or interpretations I don't care for. For example, I do not care for Andre Rieu's concerts but do not 'hate' him. I rather recognise that he is a fine musician who is bringing music (not my taste) and enjoyment to thousands as well as employment to hundreds of performers. Only the envious and unsuccessful hate a man like that.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ My choice of the word "hate" might have been misjudged. It was intended, though, to invoke the idea that a negative feeling or experience of a performer or composer can block us from being open to their work (some of which we may turn out to like if we can remain open to it).


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

starthrower said:


> No one is asking you. But new people come to this forum all the time. Maybe they are inexperienced and looking to try things. A four page thread of negative comments on composers and performers is counterproductive.


You are very negative about the negative! :lol:

But, more seriously, is enjoying classical music something we are seeking to convert people to like a political position? And who are these people who don't understand that art is subject to strong debate and discussion? And, then, there are many posts here that claim that all/most noted composers and performers have done some amazing things.

I guess when discussions get down to Marmite figures - some love them others don't come close to loving them - there is always the possibility for a civilised discussion about their merits and weaknesses. They are usually super-popular - Karajans if you will - and I don't think it does anyone any harm to be exposed to views that they are not "the be all and end all" of classical music even if they are also capable of great things.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Ulfilas said:


> Simon Rattle is the only major conductor from whom I couldn't name a single recording to recommend.


I have tended towards a similar position and still dislike a good few of his most famous recordings. But, how often to you check out his work? How many of his recordings do you know? If you have heard all or most then your statement that you couldn't recommended a single recording of his would be a strong one. But if you have only heard a few then your statement means little. This the trouble with disappointment. A composer or performer disappoints us a few times and many of us tend to avoid them after that, thereby missing some amazing examples of the art.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Maybe you don't remember when you first got into the music and didn't know jack about conductors or composers? I don't know why this needs to be spelled out? People come here to learn about these things and reading something like Simon Rattle never recorded anything worth listening to is not helpful in any way. So I stand by my original statement. This thread sucks!


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I have loved classical music for as long as I remember and have also talked to many who didn't and helped them to find some works that amazed them. I think the very polite and very posh reputation of the genre is one of the things that put people off. Being bad tempered with people's tastes is another! For the rest, if you have read the thread then you will know that I also am unhappy with it ... but there are still some good things.


----------



## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> I have tended towards a similar position and still dislike a good few of his most famous recordings. But, how often to you check out his work? How many of his recordings do you know? If you have heard all or most then your statement that you couldn't recommended a single recording of his would be a strong one. But if you have only heard a few then your statement means little. This the trouble with disappointment. A composer or performer disappoints us a few times and many of us tend to avoid them after that, thereby missing some amazing examples of the art.


Well, I've come back to listen to his Brahms which I heard good things about, but it didn't do anything for me. Also saw his Schumann series live in Berlin. My point really is that for such a major figure there are surprisingly few of his recordings that I think are really outstanding.

That Messiaen is one, and I also thought of his 1980s recording of The Cunning Little Vixen. It is interesting that his strengths seem (to me) to lie outside the "standard" Germanic and French repertoire. He also seems to have avoided Italian opera and some Russian music.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Ulfilas said:


> That Messiaen is one, and I also thought of his 1980s recording of The Cunning Little Vixen. It is interesting that his strengths seem (to me) to lie outside the "standard" Germanic and French repertoire. He also seems to have avoided Italian opera and some Russian music.


He may not have recorded any Italian opera but he has done some with the BPO in Baden-Baden including Manon Lescaut and Tosca that I know about.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I actually like Rattle quite a bit. He's one of the only conductors around that is willing to be idiosyncratic and take risks like the conductors of old, and I appreciate that. His Mahler definitely doesn't fire on all cylinders, but I enjoy the personality he puts into it. I love his BPO Brahms; nice and weighty. His Sibelius with the BPO is certainly interesting and worth a listen but I think the music just isn't in the BPO's blood.


----------



## Flossner (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm definitely not a fan of Leopold Stokowski and his orchestral transcriptions.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

starthrower said:


> Maybe you don't remember when you first got into the music and didn't know jack about conductors or composers? I don't know why this needs to be spelled out? People come here to learn about these things and reading something like Simon Rattle never recorded anything worth listening to is not helpful in any way. So I stand by my original statement. This thread sucks!


If no one ever uttered a word of criticism on this forum, there would be so much less to talk about. We come here in part for recommendations and there is a flip side to recommendations.

Most classical newcomers are smart enough to know that criticism of a performer or a composer is just someone's opinion. Just like criticism of _anything_ is just someone's opinion.

We probably agree that we don't like it when criticism gets unnecessarily nasty.


----------



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> I have a real beef with Lanchberry. He recorded The Nutcracker but for some insane, egotistical reason decided it needed another number - so he orchestrated one of Tchaikovsky's piano works and inserts it into the Divertissement in Act II. The orchestration is more John Williams than the Russian master, it completely destroys the flow of the music and ruined what was otherwise a pretty good reading of the score. So add John Lanchberry to my list.


Ugh! Why do people do this? The local ballet company has inserted some extra piece of music into the _Nutcracker_ for their past two performances (not the extra piece you are mentioning). I don't even know what the piece is, but the same dancers for "Waltz of the Flowers" dance it. Why do those dancers need an extra dance? Why not use "Mother Gigogne and the Polichinelles" which they never do? I emailed them asking extremely politely about this, and they never answered me. If it's on a CD though, I guess you can just skip the track, but at a live performance, it's irritating!


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

One performer whose playing truly can be hated is that of Wim Winters, founder of the Authentic Sound channel. He masquerades as an intellectual uncovering a huge musical conspiracy while he is more akin to the likes of Flat Earth or Scientology with his moronic theories about the historical use of the metronome.

And as a result, his playing is completely unlistenable. 










Even if he is historically accurate (which he is not), perhaps this kind of playing should be left in the past. It bores me to tears.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

chu42 said:


> One performer whose playing truly can be hated is that of Wim Winters, founder of the Authentic Sound channel. He masquerades as an intellectual uncovering a huge musical conspiracy while he is more akin to the likes of Flat Earth or Scientology with his moronic theories about the historical use of the metronome.
> 
> And as a result, his playing is completely unlistenable.
> 
> ...


Wow, I had no idea this guy was such a crank. I just linked one of his videos in which he argues that Klemperer's Bach tempi were period-appropriate, but I kind of regret doing that now. Does he really think that Schubert and Chopin would have wanted it that way???? Yikes!


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Yikes is right. One of the many historical inaccuracies does pertain to the Schubert, since there are many contemporary complaints about the speed of the octaves in the Wanderer Fantasy, including from the composer himself ("the Devil may play them!").

At Wim's ponderous tempo, any half-rate pianist can play the octaves with no difficulty whatsoever. Does Wim really believe that the virtuosos of the past (and Schubert, who is said to have been a fine pianist) were so mediocre that they couldn't take a string of octaves at a languid tempo?

Wim had a concept was not terrible to begin with when applied to certain works, but it is lunacy to apply this whole beat theory to every piece under the sun and to claim that this was the "historical" interpretation when it is anything but, and is sleep-inducing to boot.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

^I agree about Wim Winters. Glenn Gould was another performer who should have done more proper historical research. It's funny they both share the similarities of disrespecting the composers' original intentions and having alliterative names.

Gould: _"With Bach's death, the tradition of fugue went underground for a time it was ignored by the younger generation of his day..."_

What Gould failed to realize was that church composers across Germany kept doing their fugal writing regardless of Bach's death. There's even a letter to Mozart from his father (1777) that discusses the importance of fugal writing.
Leopold Mozart's Litaniae in C: Pignus Futurae Gloriae  (c. 1768)

Mozart specifically described in a letter to his sister (1782) that K394 must be played at 'andante maestoso'. Gould obviously didn't know this fact. Or even if he knew it, he might still have ignored it and mindlessly butchered the piece like he did other pieces of the repertoire.


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Yes, but the big difference is that I can actually enjoy many recordings by Gould, even if the man was not historically informed.

Nothing recorded by Wim Winters is remotely listenable.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I generally don't like Gould, especially finding his Bach and Mozart totally devoid of poetry and pathos. But at least he didn't claim that he was being totally faithful to the composer's intentions like Winters, something which I don't think any performer really has the right to say unless they personally know the composer. Gould had a personality, even if it is not one that I connect with. For me, basing your performance style off a pedantic interpretation of "what the composer would have wanted" is much less interesting and artful than interpreting the composer's vision in a unique way and illuminating the score in ways that others had perhaps not thought of.


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

The great thing about music is that ten of the great conductors or performers could try to convey a work exactly as the composer has written and yet come up with ten completely different performances.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

chu42 said:


> The 1900 restriction on performers is a bit silly since we have no real recordings before then. So I'll take the liberty of naming a modern performer I can't stand:
> 
> Valentina Lisitsa. A deplorable, racist, human being with awful pianistic taste and the most mainstream, overplayed, repertory in existence.


Can you or someone else point me to an example of Lisitsa's racism? Asking for a friend. Thanks


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

flamencosketches said:


> Can you or someone else point me to an example of Lisitsa's racism? Asking for a friend. Thanks


I've never heard anything about racism, but she is unpopular in some circles because she supports the "wrong" political faction in her native Ukraine -- the pro-Russian separatists in the east.


----------



## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> Can you or someone else point me to an example of Lisitsa's racism? Asking for a friend. Thanks


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2015/04/09/my-bloody-valentina/


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Duncan said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2015/04/09/my-bloody-valentina/


Ah, thanks. Yeah, that's pretty bad. OK, never listening to her again.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

flamencosketches said:


> Ah, thanks. Yeah, that's pretty bad. OK, never listening to her again.


Before you decide that, maybe you should seek advice from older more knowledgable and experienced members.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> Before you decide that, maybe you should seek advice from older more knowledgable and experienced members.


A nice, friendly jab, but I'm afraid it would have been more effective in a different context.


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> Before you decide that, maybe you should seek advice from older more knowledgable and experienced members.


I like to separate artists from their art (after all, I listen to Wagner) but Lisitsa is not even worth listening to. She is one of the most tasteless pianists and demonstrates a very limited repertoire. Everything she has played has been played better by a dozen others.


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

KenOC said:


> I've never heard anything about racism, but she is unpopular in some circles because she supports the "wrong" political faction in her native Ukraine -- the pro-Russian separatists in the east.


She can do that without calling Ukrainians "dogshit".

And ironic that she is comparing Ukrainians to Nazis when she still supports Putin and his expansionist plans.

http://www.juliadavisnews.com/artic...-vitriol-nazi-rhetoric-or-music-to-your-ears/


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

chu42 said:


> I like to separate artists from their art (after all, I listen to Wagner) but Lisitsa is not even worth listening to. She is one of the most tasteless pianists and demonstrates a very limited repertoire. Everything she has played has been played better by a dozen others.


I mostly agree, although there are a few showy/technical pieces she plays really well and rather spectacularly. Otherwise her interpretations aren't interesting at all.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

I don't hate any particular classical composer, but there are a few works by some composers I'm just not nuts about......

Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition
Stravinsky's Rite of Spring
Brahms's String Quartets
Schumann's Symphonies 2 and 4
Schubert's "Unfinished Symphony"
Shostakovich's Symphony 10
Elgar's Symphony 2
Mozart's Symphony 40
Mozart's Piano Concerto 20


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

DeepR said:


> I mostly agree, although there are a few showy/technical pieces she plays really well and rather spectacularly. Otherwise her interpretations aren't interesting at all.


She has the best recording of El Contrabandista (out of the 3-4 pianists who have recorded it), and that is essentially all. She is a one-note pianist.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Brahmsian Colors said:


> I don't hate any particular classical composer, but there are a few works by some composers I'm just not nuts about......
> 
> Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition
> Brahms's String Quartets
> ...


These are all works that I also find hard to love, though definitely not to the point of "hate." "Pictures" I just find super boring, Brahms is my second favorite composer but his quartets are among my least favorite in the genre, Schumann's symphonies have failed to hold my attention for more than a minute at a time, and Mozart's 20th PC I find bland compared to 23-25.


----------

