# Important music questions that must be answered!



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Our experiences with classical music often raise questions whose answers may not be obvious. This thread is dedicated to such questions. I'll start.

I noticed today that my local classical station plays mostly music from other countries. And yet, we pay for that station with our hard-earned American dollars, through contributions. Why are they allowed to play all that foreign music?

Informed answers, and more questions of course, are most welcome.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

All of the American stuff is that awful 20th century music. Classical radio sticks to the classics. It pays the bills.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Really?

I think you already know the answer.

And 99% of the active American members know the answer as well.

Is this some sort of pop quiz? Or are you asking this question to keep us on our toes?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Our supposedly "American" radio stations even play the music of KNOWN COMMUNISTS. I mean, how un-American is that? I'm surprised that Trump hasn't proposed some kind of wall to keep this subversive stuff out.

Nikita Khrushchev once said that Western capitalism would hang itself with its own rope. Are our classical music stations, and concert programmers, making this happen?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Great Unsolved Music Questions:

1) Four-chord Map Problem: Are four intervals sufficient to approximate the sense of any musical composition?

2) Pachelbel's Last Theorem: Does the progression I - V - IV - I have a consonant solution in any key other then C major? (Pachelbel claimed to be be about to write an elegant proof when he was struck by a bus and developed amnesia.)

3) Goldberg's Conjecture: Would it matter how many keyboard variations you created on a given theme if you fell asleep after a finite number of them?

4) Hume's Thesis: If a battery-operated music player played a twelve-note work in the middle of the forest and there was no one there to hear it, would it still be noise?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Oooooooooo I like those!

Schumann's lemma: Haydn's music is more boring than it seems. Unproven, but the subject of many doctoral theses, which are also boring.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Also Mark Twain's Dictum: Wagner's music is better than it sounds.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mark Twain's Other Dictum, said only to friends and unpublished: Wagner's music sounds better than it is.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Another question. Why do composers insist on telling us which of their works are "major" and which are "minor"? Don't they think we can figure that out for ourselves?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I feel another can full off worms to be opened again


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

KenOC said:


> Another question. Why do composers insist on telling us which of their works are "major" and which are "minor"? Don't they think we can figure that out for ourselves?


As to that, why must they put playing instructions in the title?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

You want your music made in the USA? Well, voting for Donald Trump is one way to get it. He'd build a wall, stop the flow of foreign music into this country, and make the European Union pay for it. He knows how to do it. He'd make American broadcasting great again, and we'd have music made right here that every working family in America could afford. Of course, it wouldn't be classical music. America wasn't built on classical music. Really, do we want this country's culture going the way of Italy, France, Spain, Germany, Russia, Hungary, Sweden, Great Britain, China, India, Nepal, Belize, Botswana, Lapland, or the Vatican? 

But Democrats - or even people who just prefer Bernie Sanders' hair to Trump's - could achieve the very same thing. After all, classical music is for the one percent. I'm not in the one percent, and I don't know anybody who is. But I think Hilary Clinton is, even though her husband plays the saxophone. She might be taking exorbitant speaking fees from corporations that program Mozart on the radio - boring music made in Austria by cheap labor - and every time you sent money to your local station you'd be paying for those fees. Clearly Hilary isn't going to make our music great again.

I hope this is helpful.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I think they play more music by American composers on American radio stations than radio stations in other countries.
By the way are American composers really that desirable most of the music I have heard on radio by American composers is music by Glass, Reich, Copland and Gershwin none of them are among my favourites at least.


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## kartikeys (Mar 16, 2013)

If the demand for great American classical 
music is identified, honestly, then it will be 
produced in America.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I noticed today that my local classical station plays mostly music from other countries. And yet, we pay for that station with our hard-earned American dollars, through contributions. Why are they allowed to play all that foreign music?


Doesn't everyone know that pretty much all the best music has been produced under monarchies and other forms of dictatorship?

You guys need to speed up your dismantling of democracy if you want good home-grown classical.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> . . .
> 
> But Democrats - or even people who just prefer Bernie Sanders' hair to Trump's - could achieve the very same thing. After all, classical music is for the one percent. I'm not in the one percent, and I don't know anybody who is. But I think Hilary Clinton is, even though her husband plays the saxophone. She might be taking exorbitant speaking fees from corporations that program Mozart on the radio - boring music made in Austria by cheap labor - and every time you sent money to your local station you'd be paying for those fees. Clearly Hilary isn't going to make our music great again.
> 
> I hope this is helpful.


Bernie is probably fond of Haydn's "Farewell Symphony."


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## Bayreuth (Jan 20, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> Doesn't everyone know that pretty much all the best music has been produced under monarchies and other forms of dictatorship?
> 
> You guys need to speed up your dismantling of democracy if you want good home-grown classical.


Sadly true. Somehow repression seems to be one of the greatest motivations for the artistic mind


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

Mark Twain said:


> What a poor lot we human beings are, anyway. If base music gives me wings, why should I want any other? But I do. I want to like the higher music because the higher & better like it. But you see, I want to like it without taking the necessary trouble & giving the thing the necessary amount of time & attention. The natural suggestion is, to get into that upper tier, that dress circle, by a lie: we will pretend we like it. This lie, this pretense, gives to opera what support it has in America.


Very interesting quote by Mark Twain.


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## sloth (Jul 12, 2013)

You could have all of that foreign supposedly classical music re-scored for a country & western combo, so that it would sound truly american


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

I'm not sure I understand this thread. Regardless, I have a question. How long does a composer have to live in America before we can claim them? I'm thinking of people like Stravinsky, Mahler, and Schoenberg. I'm not sure how long these guys spent in America compared to their previous countries, but I think it was a decent amount of time for each of them if I'm not mistaken. Heck, the US claims ACDC even though they're from Australia. There's a long list of folks from Canada that people would consider American music like Rush, Neil Young, Celine Dion, and unfortunately, Justin Bieber.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

Dedalus said:


> I'm not sure I understand this thread. Regardless, I have a question. How long does a composer have to live in America before we can claim them? I'm thinking of people like Stravinsky, Mahler, and Schoenberg. I'm not sure how long these guys spent in America compared to their previous countries, but I think it was a decent amount of time for each of them if I'm not mistaken. Heck, the US claims ACDC even though they're from Australia. There's a long list of folks from Canada that people would consider American music like Rush, Neil Young, Celine Dion, and unfortunately, Justin Bieber.


I think it's pretty clear that Rush's Canadian. I wouldn't understand the misunderstanding. "Canada's greatest Rock Band"


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Herrenvolk said:


> I think it's pretty clear that Rush's Canadian. I wouldn't understand the misunderstanding. "Canada's greatest Rock Band"


They did the majority of their touring and made the majority of their money in the US, however. Most of their albums were recorded in Canada (Toronto or in Quebec) but they've also recorded plenty of albums in the UK and at least a couple in the US. But yeah, they are clearly _from_ Canada, and make their home in Canada. So perhaps Rush doesn't count. Celine Dion and Bieber definitely live in the US now, though.

My main point was that Celine Dion, Bieber, and ACDC moved to the US more or less permanently and have become iconic American acts. Does the same thing hold true for composers like Stravinsky, Schoenberg, and Mahler who moved to the US at some point and lived out the rest of their lives and composing a great deal in the US? Just how much time do you have to spend in the US to be considered an American composer? Or is it all just where you were born?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

You could call Stravinsky quasi-American, but most of his best stuff was composed in France. Mahler was only here for a few years as a conductor. Schoenberg was a war refugee and wrote a few good works here, but his greatest amount of work was in Austria. Few of the composers who wound up here from elsewhere were naturalized, and none could really be called American.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

MarkW said:


> You could call Stravinsky quasi-American, but most of his best stuff was composed in France. Mahler was only here for a few years as a conductor. Schoenberg was a war refugee and wrote a few good works here, but his greatest amount of work was in Austria. Few of the composers who wound up here from elsewhere were naturalized, and none could really be called American.


Ah, I didn't know about much of what you said. I knew these guys moved to the US but I wasn't certain how long, or how much they composed here. Thanks for the reply!


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

kartikeys said:


> If the demand for great American classical
> music is identified, honestly, then it will be
> produced in America.


Where is the sarcasm emoticon?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Triplets said:


> Where is the sarcasm emoticon?


You can buy sarcasm emoticons at Walmart. They're imported from China.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Dedalus said:


> They did the majority of their touring and made the majority of their money in the US, however. Most of their albums were recorded in Canada (Toronto or in Quebec) but they've also recorded plenty of albums in the UK and at least a couple in the US. But yeah, they are clearly _from_ Canada, and make their home in Canada. So perhaps Rush doesn't count. Celine Dion and Bieber definitely live in the US now, though.
> 
> My main point was that Celine Dion, Bieber, and ACDC moved to the US more or less permanently and have become iconic American acts. Does the same thing hold true for composers like Stravinsky, Schoenberg, and Mahler who moved to the US at some point and lived out the rest of their lives and composing a great deal in the US? Just how much time do you have to spend in the US to be considered an American composer? Or is it all just where you were born?


For various reasons Canada is a virtual garden for culturing the various arts. If Canada (with a population close to that of California) was a U.S. State, the number of actors, singers, bands, comedians and other artists would be well out of proportion to its relative population to other states. It even includes news anchors and personalities. A few examples: The beloved late ABC anchor, Peter Jennings, and the CNN personality, Ashleigh Banfield are Canadian.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

DaveM said:


> For various reasons Canada is a virtual garden for culturing the various arts. If Canada (with a population close to that of California) was a U.S. State, the number of actors, singers, bands, comedians and other artists would be well out of proportion to its relative population to other states. It even includes news anchors and personalities. A few examples: The beloved late ABC anchor, Peter Jennings, and the CNN personality, Ashleigh Banfield are Canadian.


Dave, we don't appreciate Canadian propaganda on this forum.

Thanks
 :tiphat:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DaveM said:


> ... If Canada (with a population close to that of California) was a U.S. State...


You mean it isn't? But I thought...


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> Doesn't everyone know that pretty much all the best music has been produced under monarchies and other forms of dictatorship?
> 
> You guys need to speed up your dismantling of democracy if you want good home-grown classical.


Shhhh... They're working on it!



Dedalus said:


> There's a long list of folks from Canada that people would consider American music like Rush, Neil Young, Celine Dion, and unfortunately, Justin Bieber.


 Well, even I think of those acts as Canadian. Except maybe Mr Bieber who seems to be a citizen of all states and none!


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

KenOC said:


> You mean it isn't? But I thought...


I have a few Canadian friends and they are very touchy about these kinds of jokes! I've learned not to make them in their presence.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

*


Woodduck said:



You want your music made in the USA? Well, voting for Donald Trump is one way to get it. He'd build a wall, stop the flow of foreign music into this country, and make the European Union pay for it.

Click to expand...

*A modest proposal.

How many Syrian refugees has Switzerland and Israel admitted for their cultural edification again?


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

isorhythm said:


> I have a few Canadian friends and they are very touchy about these kinds of jokes! I've learned not to make them in their presence.


Honestly, I've never met a touchy Canadian. It may be a stereotype, but every Canadian I've ever known has been very chill and easygoing.


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Shhhh... They're working on it!
> 
> Well, even I think of those acts as Canadian. Except maybe Mr Bieber who seems to be a citizen of all states and none!


Memo to TurnaboutVox:

"Dismantling democracy" is code for color revolution - the folks at NSA will be all over your case - Please be careful...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> A modest proposal.
> 
> How many Syrian refugees has Switzerland and Israel admitted for their cultural edification again?


It's complicated. Switzerland rejects more asylum applications than some other countries, which doubtless has an effect. From September last year:
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Switzerland is not a "preferred destination" of Syrian refugees, says its migration office, with new figures showing just 401 Syrians applied for asylum in the Alpine country in August. New figures released by the Swiss Migration Office (SEM) show that a total of 3,899 asylum requests were placed last month, just three more than in July and hardly the influx experienced by other European countries.

Of the Swiss total, 1,610 requests came from Eritreans, 461 from Afghans, 401 from Syrians and 180 from Iraqis...

Latest figures show just over 5,000 Syrian refugees have been given provisional permission to live in Switzerland while a further 2,000 are currently having their asylum applications reviewed.

As for Israel:
-------------------------
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday rejected a call to host refugees from Syria and elsewhere, saying that while Israel is "not indifferent to the human tragedy of the refugees," it is not in a position to take them in.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Of course Israel won't take any Syrian refugees—most are ethnic Arabs.


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## kartikeys (Mar 16, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> Doesn't everyone know that pretty much all the best music has been produced under monarchies and other forms of dictatorship?
> 
> You guys need to speed up your dismantling of democracy if you want good home-grown classical.


Present day democracies have musical choices forced on people, 
thereby rendering the system weak. Free criticism and counter - 
culture will revive other forms of music. Internet is an example.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

It's always gratifying when people take your ideas seriously... unless you meant them as jokes, of course!


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Dedalus said:


> Honestly, I've never met a touchy Canadian. It may be a stereotype, but every Canadian I've ever known has been very chill and easygoing.


I want everyone to read that and remember that when they read my posts.  (Well, I am an American citizen also.)


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

sloth said:


> You could have all of that foreign supposedly classical music re-scored for a country & western combo, so that it would sound truly american


I'm not sure where you are, so you may not know this, but nobody in the business has called the format country & western for decades, probably since the days of Autry and Evans.

Even country music is not so American anymore, getting top-shelf performers from Canada and Australia, to name a couple.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

It's a holdover from the Cold War. We agreed to play German music and buy their cars, they agreed not to become communists and to stop trying to conquer Europe.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Harold in Columbia said:


> It's a holdover from the Cold War. We agreed to play German music and buy their cars, they agreed not to become communists and to stop trying to conquer Europe.


You're confusing the Cold War with WW2.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

No I'm not doing that.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> It's always gratifying when people take your ideas seriously... unless you meant them as jokes, of course!


Most of them can't see that, just bashing / lashing out


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## ericdxx (Jul 7, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Our experiences with classical music often raise questions whose answers may not be obvious. This thread is dedicated to such questions. I'll start.
> 
> I noticed today that my local classical station plays mostly music from other countries. And yet, we pay for that station with our hard-earned American dollars, through contributions. Why are they allowed to play all that foreign music?
> 
> Informed answers, and more questions of course, are most welcome.


It makes me sad that WQXR is longer owned by New York times. I know the Times were probably funding it and taking the financial loss every year but still. There was a commercial classical radio station in New York. Now it's a charity with NPR running the station.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

We had 2 classical stations in Chicago, with one sold 15 years ago and becoming a progressive rock drive-to-work station (advertised as "the drive"). But hard to imagine now a city with 2 classical broadcast stations. (Compared to Europeans, we spend so much time in cars we have to be entertained on those long daily commutes).


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## sloth (Jul 12, 2013)

bharbeke said:


> I'm not sure where you are, so you may not know this, but nobody in the business has called the format country & western for decades, probably since the days of Autry and Evans.
> 
> Even country music is not so American anymore, getting top-shelf performers from Canada and Australia, to name a couple.


Yes, I knew that... I was just playing with stereotypes  I'm from Italy btw.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

bharbeke said:


> Even country music is not so American anymore, getting top-shelf performers from Canada and Australia, to name a couple.


Och Sverige!


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Does anyone else here listen to Lyric FM on RTÉ (the Irish broadcaster)? They play an eclectic mix, including folk and jazz but the 'classical' music is more diverse and interesting than usual. My favourite moment was a year or two back, on a suddenly snowy winter day that brought Dublin to even more than its usual standstill. The announcer commented "Well, I've had a look out of the window, so here's Rautavaara's _Cantus Arcticus_". Fair play to yer man for appropriate obscurity.

If you don't know the piece. it is here:


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Pat Fairlea said:


> Does anyone else here listen to Lyric FM on RTÉ (the Irish broadcaster)? They play an eclectic mix, including folk and jazz but the 'classical' music is more diverse and interesting than usual. My favourite moment was a year or two back, on a suddenly snowy winter day that brought Dublin to even more than its usual standstill. The announcer commented "Well, I've had a look out of the window, so here's Rautavaara's _Cantus Arcticus_". Fair play to yer man for appropriate obscurity.
> 
> If you don't know the piece. it is here:


Yes, I think Lyric does a good balancing act of public-service obligations and giving the audience what they want. Marty Whelan aside, of course; I can't listen to that man.
Tim Thurston's show was great and is much missed, but his replacement plays a good selection too.


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