# Can a writer use forum posts as material?



## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

*Can a writer use some of the discussions and posts on a forum like this one as material for his/ her writing*?

If you changed around the wording of the posts but kept the main ideas I am guessing it would be ok. Would you have to ask the posters for their permission? Or would it just be good manners anyway to tell them anyway. I don't think any writer would like to completely steal something that isn't theirs. But...sometimes it can be hard to capture speech, although you know what you want your characters to say...and on a forum the way some people write feels so natural and eloquent. I am not saying I want to write something only based on forum posts...but I feel it would enhance my own writing.

One story, for example, could be about a student at a conservatoire and all their experiences and feelings about life etc. with some interesting seminar and student discussion bits. The big ideas from the discussions could perhaps link up to some of the student's own personal thoughts and worries about life. Or about a group of friends in a pub who are a mixture of professional and amateur musicians and other academics discussing certain aspects of music in the course of an afternoon, maybe after a yearly masterclass session they all attend. Alongside all the lofty discussions I would hint at details of their personal lives and ambitions, and possible reasons for biases towards certain ideas and ways of thinking, without generalising things too much. The set up could be anything.

*So, I'm wondering what is the legality and the etiquette of this? *I also write on other forums and go to open lectures for other subjects. So at this pub meet-up there could also be scientists, philosophers classicists, literature academics as well as musicians, and non-academics discussing ideas.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Feel free to use my stuff.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

If you don't acknowledge it as someone's writing it is plagiarism. You are not likely to get caught unless you write something very popular though.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Probably note down the author of the posts in question and publish the book with a bibliography reflecting that.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

You don't have to be a member to read the posts, only to join in with the discussion.

People who post on forums usually do so under some implicit form of copyleft. It's a bit like Wiki, on this forum we respect copyright and acknowledge where we use copyright materials, but what we say is subject to revision and correction by others. I am happy to have my words quoted and reused provided they remain free. I would heartily object if somebody attempted to make money out of my words e.g. by using them in liner notes or whatever.

It's not like verbal conversations, where we might expect a writer to be making use of what we say. This is our offering to the general public. Although we might be talking to people we know on the forum, we also know that TC is seen as the premier music site and searched by non-members looking for gems of wisdom. On that basis, what we say is free and I think many members would object to others profiting from it.

This is a purely personal view.


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## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

Radames said:


> If you don't acknowledge it as someone's writing it is plagiarism. You are not likely to get caught unless you write something very popular though.


But I wouldn't want to try to evade getting caught, I just don't want to do something wrong in the first place. But on a forum like this people aren't writing creatively anyway, if you see what I mean. They are discussing something in a public sphere, it just happens to be by the medium of writing rather than speaking. Would it be different if we were all talking together at a music lecture and I remembered or noted down things people said? I don't think that could be plagiarism. What if I'm on a train and listen to a conversation between people I don't know and later use that for a story...I cant really ask them for their permission. But if they are obviously recognisable in the story and if I didn't change the names, locations etc. I suppose I could be sued, in theory.


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## omega (Mar 13, 2014)

French author Jean-Marie Gourio made a book out of authentic bar talks...
If someone wants to collect all the musical jokes on this forum and publish it, I'll buy


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## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

Taggart said:


> On that basis, what we say is free and I think many members would object to others profiting from it.


 Yes I think there is a distinction between a writer using something they have heard in a real life conversation and something that is written on a forum. And there is something not quite right with using someone else's words, unless you asked them and it was ok with them.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2014)

Personal view - go ahead. What I'm writing, assuming it's worth plagiarising, is not what you might call 'published work' where I am identified as the author - in the sense that is written in books. If I was foolish enough to publish openly here what I regarded as an original thesis that I might some day wish to copyright, I'd been hard put to prove my case.


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## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

If I found my own words in someone else's published writing I think I would feel betrayed by the implicit trust that you expect from writing in a public domain. I would probably also feel betrayed if they took words that I said in a real life conversation. But only if they were obviously my words. And I think it's probable I would recognise my own words if it was a creative description I wrote of something. However if I wasn't involved in writing and didn't think of myself as talented in that way, then I might be flattered that someone used something I said/ wrote.


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## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

Actually if they liked an idea of mine and asked to use it, then probably I'd be flattered and would say yes as long as it wasn't absolutely pivotal and original, which it probably wouldn't be as I'm not smart enough.. What I wouldn't like is if someone lifted word for word my actual descriptions of things, and therefore my own writing style. If its just an idea and they write about it in their own style and make an acknowledgement to me in their work, then I'd probably be happy about it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Musicforawhile said:


> Actually if they liked an idea of mine and asked to use it, then probably I'd be flattered and would say yes as long as it wasn't absolutely pivotal and original, which it probably wouldn't be *as I'm not smart enough..* What I wouldn't like is if someone lifted word for word my actual descriptions of things, and therefore my own writing style. If its just an idea and they write about it in their own style and make an acknowledgement to me in their work, then I'd probably be happy about it.


Yeah, right!!! :lol:


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I think one should feel free to use this stuff, it's open in the Internet... but *don't try to pass it as your own*, even with changed wording! You cannot _steal_ this stuff, but you certainly can _lie_ about it's source.


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## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Yeah, right!!! :lol:


Well..as long as they don't out-do me with my own idea...


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I don't think it is ethical to use someone's ideas and pass them off as your own  Since the forum is anonymous, it would seem appropriate to make mention of the fact that you have participated in an online discussion forum on classical music and someone said 'X'. Then, you can go on to dissect and dissert the idea in your own writing.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

If I catch the drift of your OP correctly, taking material in general as fodder for writing stories is the normal mode for writers.

"Lifting" material verbatim and without attribution is generally unethical, if not illegal.

That said, to model a manner 'of speech' of anyone, forum member or overheard on a bus, is completely fair game. Fair game, too, is a good deal of 'what is said' on a subject, i.e. an angle of opinion, attitude, tone, etc.

I overheard a conversation between two people who were looking at a Julian Schnabel painting in a museum (his heavy impasto, embedded broken dinner plates period  and what one said to the other I will never forget:
"I'm all for self-expression, but it has to express something to me!"

Well, that can not be bettered. It is also the kind of thing like the 'coin of the realm' which would have, could have, been said by many another. Ergo, when I do use it, I do not each time say, "I heard a woman say this while standing in front of a Julian Schnabel painting."

But what you propose, or what I think you propose, should be well within what writers do all the time, with the proviso that if you are going to use material by another, _that you make it your own_


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

This is really interesting. Recently I discovered one of my posts had been published by a website.

I accept that anything you write on the internet can be copied and used but what I object to the most is this note at the bottom of the page as if _they_ owned the copyright on _my_ review.



> This information is provided by ArtistData on behalf of Manuscript. It may not be duplicated or used without the permission of ArtistData or Manuscript.


I have written to them asking that they either credit me and don't claim copyright or remove the review. But I don't hold out much hope. I can delete the photos from my photobucket site but that would mean my original post on TC would be spoiled.


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## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

sospiro said:


> This is really interesting. Recently I discovered one of my posts had been published by a website.
> 
> I accept that anything you write on the internet can be copied and used but what I object to the most is this note at the bottom of the page as if _they_ owned the copyright on _my_ review.
> 
> I have written to them asking that they either credit me and don't claim copyright or remove the review. But I don't hold out much hope. I can delete the photos from my photobucket site but that would mean my original post on TC would be spoiled.


Can't believe they would do that without asking. It's not right at all.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

A bit of acknowledgement would be nice if any passages from this forum are directly lifted and used elsewhere, but on the whole I'm not bothered if anyone actually used any of my stuff here - it's not as if I'm writing this for money.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

All of the content of my brilliant posts here can be found in any of my best-selling books, "_Learning classical music with aleazk_", "_Classical music, chaos theory, and unified field theory_", avaiable for $1,50 at the cash registers of your local supermarket.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Radames said:


> If you don't acknowledge it as someone's writing it is plagiarism. You are not likely to get caught unless you write something very popular though.


British universities use a package to check student work submitted for assignments that will (often) recognise that you have copied .... even from a blog site.

If in doubt ... acknowledge your source



Musicforawhile said:


> I cant really ask them for their permission.


you don't need to ask for permision to use someone else's ideas if they are published - you simply have to acknowledge where the idea comes from if it is not your own



Musicforawhile said:


> Can a writer use some of the discussions and posts on a forum like this one as material for his/ her writing


If it is for an academic piece of writing, I would advise you to be very careful about using any blog as a source of information or evidence. Academic writing should be about validity, evidence and authority - and open-access material is unlikely to win you any marks for academic rigour (unless you are actually researching how blogs are used etc).

If you are writing for non-academic purposes, do what you want and let the reader beware!


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Headphone Hermit said:


> If it is for an academic piece of writing, I would advise you to be very careful about using any blog as a source of information or evidence. Academic writing should be about validity, evidence and authority - and open-access material is unlikely to win you any marks for academic rigour (unless you are actually researching how blogs are used etc).
> 
> If you are writing for non-academic purposes, do what you want and let the reader beware!


Blog material should be thoroughly fact checked before you incorporate it into your research- but so should printed material. It's a myth that traditionally published books are more reliable than good quality blogs. So many books I read are poorly referenced and barely even proofread.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

If anyone uses my stuff, I hope they don't credit me. My reputation is bad enough already.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

sospiro said:


> This is really interesting. Recently I discovered one of my posts had been published by a website.
> 
> I accept that anything you write on the internet can be copied and used but what I object to the most is this note at the bottom of the page as if _they_ owned the copyright on _my_ review.
> 
> I have written to them asking that they either credit me and don't claim copyright or remove the review. But I don't hold out much hope. I can delete the photos from my photobucket site but that would mean my original post on TC would be spoiled.


Update.

They've removed it. I would have been happy if TC and I had been accredited but I'm happy that they responded promptly.


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## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

Headphone Hermit said:


> you don't need to ask for permision to use someone else's ideas if they are published - you simply have to acknowledge where the idea comes from if it is published


Of course, but I meant it's hard or impossible to ask on the street or on the bus etc. for permission to use a snippet of a conversation you've overhead someone having. And these are sort of conversations we are having here so I just wondered how people feel about it. I hope I haven't made anyone paranoid that I'm going to steal their words...

But you know it isn't just real-life conversations that a writer might use...it could be someone's gestures, mannerisms, dress sense...absolutely anything that catches your eye and you want to capture. I wonder how people in general feel about that...

Don't want to make an overblown comparison but for argument's sake...I don't believe for one second that expressions and proverbial sayings like "all's well that ends well," "green-eyed monster," "apple of my eye," "be-all and end-all," " milk of human kindness," first found in written form in Shakespeare's plays are from his imagination alone. They sound like something he might have heard at a pub or from some wise washerwoman or his grandma. Writers are like caddis-flies, and any piece of creative writing in a sense is never created just by the writer alone.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Exactly! We are--as human beings--naturally sociable creatures. Through the course of our lives, we have many differing interactions and experiences--including conversations--with a myriad of different people. It would be quite unnatural if we didn't to a certain extent absorb and then reuse what we have heard other people say and do, and emulate some of their physical gestures and expressions, etc. After all, infants often imitate their parents, their first significant influences and contacts with the larger world into which they will eventually enter.
BTW, good post. :cheers:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If anybody uses my stuff, I would be thrilled. Better than being assigned to the obscurity it is now.


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## Frederik Magle (Feb 17, 2006)

Unless something else has been agreed on, the copyright of the content of the posts belong to the original poster/author and Talk Classical. _However_ the author can legally use the material outside Talk Classical as well, in which case TC does not claim any copyright. Talk Classical is a publisher with the (non-exclusive) right to publish the content of the authors worldwide.

Simply copy-pasting or closely imitating posts, passing them for your own writing is illegal. If you wish to copy a post in its entirety you will need the permission from the user who posted it in the first place.

What you _can_ do without asking for prior permission is *quoting* a post (and even a large portion of the post would be ok) as long as you give due credit to both the poster _and_ Talk Classical. If you wish not to credit TC you will have to make a legal agreement with the poster to use his/her material outside TC.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Frederik Magle said:


> Unless something else has been agreed on, *the copyright of the content of the posts belong to the original poster/author and Talk Classical.*


I had a hunch the copyright would default to both the author _and TC_. 
The organization having the rights can add great extra weight if an author is ripped off -- so it is very nice to have the official confirmation.

Very good to know.

I assume this also goes for 'publishing' a piece of music in today's composers. A further confirmation might help a few relax on that particular issue 

Thanks.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Frederik Magle said:


> Unless something else has been agreed on, the copyright of the content of the posts belong to the original poster/author and Talk Classical. _However_ the author can legally use the material outside Talk Classical as well, in which case TC does not claim any copyright. Talk Classical is a publisher with the (non-exclusive) right to publish the content of the authors worldwide.
> 
> Simply copy-pasting or closely imitating posts, passing them for your own writing is illegal. If you wish to copy a post in its entirety you will need the permission from the user who posted it in the first place.
> 
> What you _can_ do without asking for prior permission is *quoting* a post (and even a large portion of the post would be ok) as long as you give due credit to both the poster _and_ Talk Classical. If you wish not to credit TC you will have to make a legal agreement with the poster to use his/her material outside TC.


Thank you Frederik for the clarification


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## Frederik Magle (Feb 17, 2006)

PetrB said:


> I had a hunch the copyright would default to both the author _and TC_.
> I assume this also goes for 'publishing' a piece of music in today's composers. A further confirmation might help a few relax on that particular issue


Actually, no - as far as I know. I don't make the laws (outside TC ), so my replies in this thread are based on my understanding, to the best of my ability, of Danish copyright law as applied to online forums.

The copyright of any _files_ attached to - or linked from - TC belong solely to the author, including but not limited to music and images. Though of course, when uploading any file to TC the person uploading the file grants TC non-exclusive rights to "publish" it.


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