# Why Didn't Liszt Write Opera?



## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Franz Liszt certainly wrote much music besides his famous piano compositions and transcriptions. He wrote dozens of songs although most are today obscure, and he is credited with inventing the symphonic poem. I wonder why he never wrote an opera. Is it just because he and Wagner were so tight, and he knew he could never outdo that?

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Perhaps it simply wasn't on his "to do" Liszt.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barelytenor said:


> Franz Liszt certainly wrote much music besides his famous piano compositions and transcriptions. He wrote dozens of songs although most are today obscure, and he is credited with inventing the symphonic poem. I wonder why he never wrote an opera. Is it just because he and Wagner were so tight, and he knew he could never outdo that?
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> ...


Based on his vocal works, let's say the world is better without them.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Actually, I attended a New York Philharmonic concert conducted by Pierre Boulez of Liszt's oratorio, the Legend of St. Elizabeth and was impressed by it. Doesn't answer the OP question, but there is good vocal Liszt out there.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pugg said:


> Based on his vocal works, let's say the world is better without them.


Agreed! I once say through 'Via crucis' and never has a seat seemed so hard!


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Because it is awful!









Yes he only managed one. I suppose he didn't get to be centre stage and flaunt his pianism skills as an opera composer. Strange to see the negative reaction to _Via Crucis_ as I love it. I might even be moved to say I prefer Liszt as a vocal composer more than a piano composer. The opera itself is rather old-fashioned and pastoral for its time, pleasant but somewhat Donizetti without the pizzazz.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Liszt composed some good large-scale choral works in his maturity but his affinity for opera seemed to concentrate on transcribing much music by other composers for performance on piano rather than planning anything for himself. That plus other constraints on his time meant there were insufficient opportunities for him to properly kick-start his own operatic ambitions (assuming he really had any by then). A couple of operatic projects were allegedly planned but amounted to little or nothing - perhaps Liszt simply realised that his strengths lay elsewhere.


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## Valjuan (Dec 9, 2016)

Perhaps he wasn't that comfortable with vocal writing? Let's be happy with the wealth of piano music he gave us. Same with Chopin!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

He knew where his strengths lay, and he was a very busy man. He saw what Wagner had to go through to get his operas composed and produced, and I can't imagine Liszt, with his scattered pursuits and immense circle of friends and associates, buckling down to that sort of life. Shorter works fit in much better, and gave him a chance to experiment musically. Wagner profited from some of his experiments.

But yes, I would agree that the thought of competing with Wagner might have been intimidating. He knew that Wagner needed him, and serving the genius of his friend was a mission of prime importance.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

His paraphrases on opera however are unbeaten.!


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Pugg said:


> His paraphrases on opera however are unbeaten.!


So true! I particularly enjoy Reminiscences de Don Juan. He really captures the essence of that opera.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bettina said:


> So true! I particularly enjoy Reminiscences de Don Juan. He really captures the essence of that opera.


The one for one or two piano's?
I like Reminiscences de Lucia di Lammermoor.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Pugg said:


> The one for one or two piano's?
> I like Reminiscences de Lucia di Lammermoor.


I like the one for solo piano. The virtuosity is exciting. All those notes for just two hands! It has the frenzied feeling that I associate with Don Giovanni's personality.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bettina said:


> I like the one for solo piano. The virtuosity is exciting. All those notes for just two hands! It has the frenzied feeling that I associate with Don Giovanni's personality.


I've tried them once, still got sprained wrists


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bettina said:


> So true! I particularly enjoy Reminiscences de Don Juan. He really captures the essence of that opera.


Try Earl Wild's recording!


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## Retrograde Inversion (Nov 27, 2016)

quack said:


> Because it is awful!
> 
> Yes he only managed one. I suppose he didn't get to be centre stage and flaunt his pianism skills as an opera composer. Strange to see the negative reaction to _Via Crucis_ as I love it. I might even be moved to say I prefer Liszt as a vocal composer more than a piano composer. The opera itself is rather old-fashioned and pastoral for its time, pleasant but somewhat Donizetti without the pizzazz.


Well, he was only 13 when he wrote that in 1824, so its no surprise if its no masterpiece.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Pugg said:


> The one for one or two piano's?
> I like Reminiscences de Lucia di Lammermoor.


The neglected pianist Jorge Bolet does a bang-up job of this as well as an unbeatable _Tannhaüser _overture transcription.

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

"Don Sanche" is an opera written when Liszt was just a young boy , and composed with the aid of his teacher, who, if I remember correctly was the once well known and highly regarded Giovanni Simone Mayr . I'd be curious to hear it , though . 
Supposedly, Liszt did not write any further operas because he realized that he could not possibly compete with his great friend and eventual son-in-law Wagner and concentrated on piano music , choral and orchestral works etc .


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barelytenor said:


> The neglected pianist Jorge Bolet does a bang-up job of this as well as an unbeatable _Tannhaüser _overture transcription.
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> ...


Not neglected by me, got the whole Bolet / Decca box with all the transcriptions.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barelytenor said:


> The neglected pianist Jorge Bolet does a bang-up job of this as well as an unbeatable _Tannhaüser _overture transcription.
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> ...


Not neglected by me either!


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Glad some other folks around here (metaphorically speaking) recognize this man's extraordinary talent. I heard him play the _Tannhaüser _overture many years ago and thought I had died and gone to Heaven. I couldn't wait to scoop up some other stuff by him, not only opera transcriptions but his Chopin Etudes.

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

quack said:


> Because it is awful!
> 
> View attachment 90714
> 
> ...


And Don Sanche he wrote while still a child, so one shouldn't expect much. But he certainly liked writing choral music, and much of what I've heard is quite good. And he conducted many operas, especially Wagner's, while at Weimar. Maybe his time as conductor of opera made him understand just how difficult it was to get an opera staged and performed.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

superhorn said:


> "Don Sanche" is an opera written when Liszt was just a young boy , and composed with the aid of his teacher, who, if I remember correctly was the once well known and highly regarded Giovanni Simone Mayr . I'd be curious to hear it , though .


Mayr is certainly worth hearing, never knew he was connected to Liszt. He is fairly well recorded on the Naxos label, well at least his oratorio are and a few opera.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

quack said:


> Mayr is certainly worth hearing, never knew he was connected to Liszt. He is fairly well recorded on the Naxos label, well at least his oratorio are and a few opera.


Liszt didn't write an opera because it was probably too tough of a nut to quack.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Liszt didn't write an opera because it was probably too tough of a nut to quack.


You'd better duck after that one.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Liszt's thought process when considering writing an opera:

1. Use leitmotifs? Bad idea.
2. Not use leitmotifs? _Worse _idea.
3. Write some piano music.

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> You'd better duck after that one.


I usually do keep a low profile anyway!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hpowders said:


> I usually do keep a low profile anyway!


As you enjoin, I won't settle for anything less. (I mean "less!!!")


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Actually, I attended a New York Philharmonic concert conducted by Pierre Boulez of Liszt's oratorio, the Legend of St. Elizabeth and was impressed by it. Doesn't answer the OP question, but there is good vocal Liszt out there.


Impressive piece (at least by the sound clips) and I read that Mahler thought highly of it.


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## cougarjuno (Jul 1, 2012)

It's sad that Liszt's vocal music is so unappreciated. Via Crucis is a masterpiece as is The Legend of St. Elizabeth. His masses are profound and stirring particularly the early Szekszard Mass. His Seven Sacraments written around the same time as Via Crucis is deeply moving and the secular works though not as deep are imaginative and worth a listen. I love his lieder which of course many he arranged for piano.


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## Scopitone (Nov 22, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Perhaps it simply wasn't on his "to do" Liszt.


*reports you to the moderators*

:devil:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Perhaps we all should be grateful for what we've got made by Liszt, moping does't help, it's never going to happen.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

cougarjuno said:


> It's sad that Liszt's vocal music is so unappreciated. *Via Crucis is a masterpiece* as is The Legend of St. Elizabeth. His masses are profound and stirring particularly the early Szekszard Mass. His Seven Sacraments written around the same time as Via Crucis is deeply moving and the secular works though not as deep are imaginative and worth a listen. I love his lieder which of course many he arranged for piano.


Must confess the only time I heard Via Crucis I was bored out of my mind.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

If Liszt did not write an opera he certainly influenced his son-in-law Wagner tremendously. There is an awful lot of Wagner (e.g. the Tristan Chord) that first appears in Liszt's music.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Perhaps we all should be grateful for what we've got made by Liszt, moping does't help, it's never going to happen.


If the example of Rosemary Brown is anything to go by, it looks like you are right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Brown_(spiritualist)

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> If Liszt did not write an opera he certainly influenced his son-in-law Wagner tremendously. There is an awful lot of Wagner (e.g. the Tristan Chord) that first appears in Liszt's music.


Really? I don't know about this particular claim, but most of the claims that Wagner stole some of his most famous melodies or ideas from Mendelsohn or Liszt have been debunked.

N.


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

DavidA said:


> If Liszt did not write an opera he certainly influenced his son-in-law Wagner tremendously. There is an awful lot of Wagner (e.g. the Tristan Chord) that first appears in Liszt's music.


The chord appeared in other composer's music before Liszt as well.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> If Liszt did not write an opera he certainly influenced his son-in-law Wagner tremendously. There is an awful lot of Wagner (e.g. the Tristan Chord) that first appears in Liszt's music.


I've explained this before but I'll try again. There was nothing new about the Tristan chord; it's simply an inversion of a half-diminished seventh, which you can find in Haydn. What was unprecedented in Wagner was his _use_ of it as an unprepared dissonance, completely ambiguous as to its function when it first strikes the ear. Only after we've heard it in context do we understand it as a modified augmented sixth; its upper note turns out to be an apoggiatura, and it resolves chromatically to the dominant seventh of the main key of the prelude, A minor. Of course that dominant seventh itself is left unresolved, adding to the harmonic uncertainty of the whole passage and the whole work.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Really? I don't know about this particular claim, but most of the claims that Wagner stole some of his most famous melodies or ideas from Mendelsohn or Liszt have been debunked.
> 
> N.


The most noteworthy instance of outright pilfering is the "Rhine" motif in the _Ring_, which comes straight out of Mendelssohn's "Fair Melusine" overture. Melusine was a female water sprite - in other words, a Rhinemaiden, more or less. I guess Wagner felt he couldn't do better than Mendelssohn's theme.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> The most noteworthy instance of outright pilfering is the "Rhine" motif in the _Ring_, which comes straight out of Mendelssohn's "Fair Melusine" overture. Melusine was a female water sprite - in other words, a Rhinemaiden, more or less. I guess Wagner felt he couldn't do better than Mendelssohn's theme.


That's a new one I haven't heard before, but then this isn't an area I know a _lot_ about.

N.

P.S. Thank you for the thorough explanation of Wagner's _use_ of the Tristan Chord. I knew it wasn't the chord itself that was important but the harmonic progression of the sequence of chords themselves. It's great to have the detail from an expert, though.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> That's a new one I haven't heard before, but then this isn't an area I know a _lot_ about.
> 
> N.
> 
> P.S. Thank you for the thorough explanation of Wagner's _use_ of the Tristan Chord. I knew it wasn't the chord itself that was important but the harmonic progression of the sequence of chords themselves. It's great to have the detail from an expert, though.


I should mention that my explanation of the Tristan chord hasn't been agreed to by everyone, and that the controversy has continued to give "the chord" its unique fame. I've read other theorists' interpretations, but don't find them as convincing as the analysis I gave above, which really seems to me quite obvious.

The half-diminished chord, in its several inversions, is compounded of a minor triad and a diminished fifth (tritone), and it might be called the "Wagner chord," since he uses it extensively, probably more than any other composer. It's minor-key darkness and diminished-chord instability make it useful in all sorts of dramatically and emotionally subtle situations.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

I wish you could insert examples ... I took just enough music theory in college to understand the terms you use without really grasping your points. My fault, of course, but there it is.

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> The most noteworthy instance of outright pilfering is the "Rhine" motif in the _Ring_, which comes straight out of Mendelssohn's "Fair Melusine" overture. Melusine was a female water sprite - in other words, a Rhinemaiden, more or less. I guess Wagner felt he couldn't do better than Mendelssohn's theme.


Interesting that he thought Mendelssohn worthy of stealing from because I read that Wagner tried to destroy Mendelssohn's reputation as a great composer. I can't remember what book I read this in, but here is an article on line that talks about it.


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Interesting that he thought Mendelssohn worthy of stealing from because I read that Wagner tried to destroy Mendelssohn's reputation as a great composer. I can't remember what book I read this in, but here is an article on line that talks about it.


That Tom Service article almost comes across as a big conspiracy piece. Not that what he says about Wagner's vitriolic statements towards Jewish composers in his essay "Jewishness in Music" isn't true, and many of those statements were pointed at Mendelssohn. But his conclusion that Mendelssohn's reputation as a composer is "all Wagner's fault", even up to the present day where a majority listeners certainly have never heard of or read Wagner's essay, let alone know or care how Wagner characterized Mendelssohn's music in print, seems more than a little unlikely. Wagner had lowly opinions of plenty of composers, some of them with fine present-day reputations (like Verdi), and plenty of great composers have made derogatory statements about one another's music. While these statements may sometimes be interesting (and they usually reveal more about the composer making the statement than the composer being criticized), none of this affects their status and reputation among the greater listening public.

In any case, his statements about Mendelssohn in that essay were made in comparison to Beethoven, and essentially Wagner's point was that Mendelssohn is no Beethoven. It was an attempt to support the larger cultural argument he was making there. But statements he made in private reveal that Wagner was actually quite fond of much of Mendelssohn's music, where he remarked about Mendelssohn's "good sense of the orchestra", was "astonished" by the Songs Without Words, and called the Hebrides Overture a masterpiece.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

That's what I like about this site, we can get clarifications such as Faustian's above. If I can remember where I first read this, I will try to post some further info, but that is probably for a Wagner thread anyway. Now back to Liszt.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Perhaps it simply wasn't on his "to do" Liszt.


Someone had to do it


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Someone had to do it


I'm sure Liszt would have written an opera if he knew a genius like Renée Fleming would soon come along to interpret it.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I'm sure Liszt would have written an opera if he knew a genius like Renée Fleming would soon come along to interpret it.


It would be trilling to see.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> It would be trilling to see.


I heard she disappointed Liszt. She was always Onegin; Offegin. Too unreliable..... Divas!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Recently, sketches of a projected Liszt opera called "Sardanaple " (Sardanapoulos ) , have been found . There has been a completion of the sketches but not enough to complete the opera by a musicologist whose name I don't recall . This would have been a mature work unlike "Don Sanche ". 
I'd be very curious to hear it . So tantalizing ! The libretto is in French . You can google this .


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## cougarjuno (Jul 1, 2012)

In Derek Watson's biography of Liszt it mentions several projects that Liszt was interested in composing for the opera stage: Le Corsaire; Manfred; The Divine Comedy; Joan of Arc; Richard in Palestine (a one-act opera based on a play by Walter Scott); a Hungarian opera entitled Janko and several others (including Spartacus!) but none came to fruition except for the 111 pages of Sardanapale. According to Watson, Liszt desperately wanted to have an opera produced either at Vienna, Paris or Milan, and had hopes of succeeding Donizetti as head of the Theatre am Kartnertor in Vienna -- but he never pursued it or the opera projects further. The reasons for failing to produce any of them include the librettos that Liszt believed were unsatisfactory, a disillusionment with the Weimar Theatre (where he was based at the time); his versatile nature as a composer which tends not to favor opera composition as those most successful tend to be single-minded in that genre -- and yes -- his admiration of Wagner for which he championed several of that composer's works -- monetarily and by his influence in the musical world as well as writing the transcriptions. The Sardanapale sketches are said to have similarities to the styles of Bellini and Meyerbeer.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I find his opera quite pleasant and will certainly revisit it:


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