# La Divina



## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Today I noticed one thing. We have a great thread on this forum on Callas's recordings, but that's it. I thought it would be nice to have a thread where we can discuss and tell what new we have discovered on Callas and what amazes us today. Or maybe has for some time. And of course anything else that you want  And if possible for fans only :tiphat:

After listening the Anna Bolena a few days ago I'm still amazed. Whatever she sings she gives everything she has. Some say that in every role she was Callas, but I have a different opinion. For me she becomes the character whether it is a queen or an innocent girl and so on. Of course there is some Callas too, but you now what I mean. The acting with the voice is what makes her so good to listen on record. Physical acting is great, but records don't have picture  And I listened to Suicidio from the first La Gioconda recording while doing some laundry. Her vocal range and how she uses it always amazes me. That's the thing about Maria. She keeps surprising me even if I have heard the piece many times before.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

There is another one, Dimmy http://www.talkclassical.com/6585-maria-callas-why.html though it ended up getting hijacked by the haters and died.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> There is another one, Dimmy http://www.talkclassical.com/6585-maria-callas-why.html though it ended up getting hijacked by the haters and died.


Just two? Somebody should start a third... 

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Just two? Somebody should start a third...
> 
> N.


Two is already two too many for some people on this forum 

Not me, obviously


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Has anyone read this biography by German writer and critic Jurgen Kesting. If you have, how do you find it?


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

I wouldn't mind re-posting here some of the posts I have posted in the "New Callas Box" thread. 









Wretched sound, with some missing parts (one of them occurs frustratingly right in the middle of the mad scene), but even these ravages fail to smother the sheer magic of Callas' first Lucia at La Scala with Karajan. Di Stefano was at his most resplendent. The La Scala audience sounds like they have the strength to lift the rooftop off the house.

Excerpts from this utterly unforgettable performance:


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> There is another one, Dimmy http://www.talkclassical.com/6585-maria-callas-why.html though it ended up getting hijacked by the haters and died.


I knew the thread. I just thought that Callas deserved another try. I'm hoping that this might become as popular as the recording thread  I'm sure that there are enough interested fans to do it.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

plumblossom said:


> View attachment 73959
> 
> 
> Has anyone read this biography by German writer and critic Jurgen Kesting. If you have, how do you find it?


I have it. It's actually not bad, concentrates a lot on the music, though the anaylses aren't all that great. I still thank Michael Scott does the best analysis of her singing.

Edited to add: And our dear RES of course.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> I have it. It's actually not bad, concentrates a lot on the music, though the anaylses aren't all that great. I still thank Michael Scott does the best analysis of her singing.


I have it too, the first time I read it I loved it, but the second time I wasn't as impressed. Greg has given you a good idea of what it is like.

N.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Thanks for your feedbacks. :tiphat: I guess I will just borrow the book from the public library and photograph the pages, rather than buying a copy.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Today I listened to some Turandot from the Puccini recital. Such a pity that we don't have an earlier recording of the whole opera. Early Callas live maybe with Del Monaco. Oh one can just wish. She would have been so great.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Callas continues to surprise and amaze us because her ability to find specific inflections and colorations of words and phrases was so uncanny and so far beyond most singers - and so far beyond the rest of us - that if we haven't heard it for a while it's as if we've never heard it before. I hadn't listened to her Carmen for years, but thought I remembered it pretty well. I was wrong. I couldn't believe the originality, the creative imagination, inhabiting every moment of it. I was literally in tears, not because the opera itself moves me so deeply - it doesn't, actually - but because I was face to face with something transcending what I would normally conceive as possible, and my heart and mind just couldn't fathom it.

In the same way, that precious film of Act 2 of _Tosca_ from Covent Garden strikes me every single time as impossible, though I've seen it over a dozen times (I'll now bow humbly to those who will tell us they've seen it over a hundred times, bless their fanatical little hearts :tiphat.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Speaking of Carmen and not wishing to cause offense to the many, many devoted lovers of Callas who have contributed to this thread, I have to admit I was disappointed with her interpretation. Certainly it has its merits, but I just couldn't, and cannot, get my ear around her singing in her lower register here. For all the world it sounds to me as though, as another commentator put it, that she has a hot potato in her mouth. This "hot potato" thing is apparent in her earlier recordings of other operas also, but it does not seem to dominate/colour her phrasing as it does here, unfortunately much to the detriment of her Carmen recording. 

Guess I'll stay with Victoria de los Angeles' take on this one.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

KRoad said:


> Speaking of Carmen and not wishing to cause offense to the many, many devoted lovers of Callas who have contributed to this thread, I have to admit I was disappointed with her interpretation. Certainly it has its merits, but I just couldn't, and cannot, get my ear around her singing in her lower register here. For all the world it sounds to me as though, as another commentator put it, that she has a hot potato in her mouth. This "hot potato" thing is apparent in her earlier recordings of other operas also, but it does not seem to dominate/colour her phrasing as it does here, unfortunately much to the detriment of her Carmen recording.
> 
> Guess I'll stay with Victoria de los Angeles' take on this one.


Carmen is a mezzo role.

N.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Carmen is a mezzo role.
> 
> N.


Thank you. Appreciated.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

On the second act Tosca from Covent Garden. It's an amazing performance. Unfortunately the camera work is what it is. I haven't watched it for some time now. Divina records might release it some day. Hopefully on blu ray. There is a video on their YouTube channel. I can't wait for their next release. A pity that Callas didn't record more mezzo roles. Her Carmen and bits and pieces of others are very good. Someone asked Callas why she invested so much on the word leave on the duet between the Duke and Gilda in Rigoletto. Callas said that Gilda said leave even though she wanted him to stay. This is what makes Callas so special. Another example is the love duet from Un Ballo In Maschera. When Amelia admits here love for Riccardo. No other singer gives it as much emotion. Or for Riccardos response as Di Stefano does. Absolutely one of my favorite duets. Callas just finds every meaning and even the smallest details from the music and the text, that I don't think we ever will realize them all. Happy hunting


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KRoad said:


> Speaking of Carmen and not wishing to cause offense to the many, many devoted lovers of Callas who have contributed to this thread, I have to admit I was disappointed with her interpretation. Certainly it has its merits, but I just couldn't, and cannot, get my ear around her singing in her lower register here. For all the world it sounds to me as though, as another commentator put it, that she has a hot potato in her mouth. This "hot potato" thing is apparent in her earlier recordings of other operas also, but it does not seem to dominate/colour her phrasing as it does here, unfortunately much to the detriment of her Carmen recording.
> 
> Guess I'll stay with Victoria de los Angeles' take on this one.


Many people have talked about the Callas Carmen as an interpretation and as singing. I'm not sure what to think when you profess disappointment with her interpretation, yet mention only the sound of her chest register. I suspect you may be referring to the strange modification she makes of the vowel "a," very noticeable in the little wordless song and dance she does for Jose, toward the French "eu" sound. I have to say that when I first heard the recording in the 1970s, I found this effect fascinating and exotic and not at all bothersome. I played it for a fellow music student and his eyebrows shot up, he grinned, and he said "Sexy!" I think that pretty well sums it up for me too.

Carmen is an Andalusian gypsy, a creature who comes from a distinct culture and lives by a different set of rules - and makes her own rules - and no Carmen suggests this alienness and independence in every detail of her portrayal as Callas's does. Some listeners find her too much to take - maybe more intimidating than seductive - but that, I think, is really a matter of personal taste. The opera certainly can support such a strong characterization: Carmen is described as a dangerous woman, and Callas exudes danger, not so much charming as challenging. Jose has never encountered anything like her, and it's quite appropriate that we haven't either.

My feeling about that strange, smouldering, smoky chest voice, and that fascinating "eu" vowel, is exactly the opposite of yours. I find it just another example of the incredible creativity of an artist who could find a distinct voice for every role she played. We think nothing of it when popular or jazz singers modify the sounds of words for expressive purposes. We are not so accustomed to it in classical music. But I can assure you that Callas knew exactly what she was doing in creating a unique voice for Carmen. And like Carmen herself, she dares us to love it.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Thank you Wooduck.

I will certainly listen again with your comments in mind - though I suspect it is the aural _texture _I have difficulties with, independent of how far this is a consequence of Callas' undoubtedly very considered take on the character she is musically portraying.

At the moment with me it is a case of the proverbial Parson's Egg - parts of it _are indeed _very nice.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Just a shame Maria Callas never recorded some of my favorite operas such as Fidelio, La Cenerentola, L'elisir d'Amore, La Fille du Regiment.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

I particularly mourn the absence of a Callas Fidelio. I still need to track down the fragment from the Juilliard Master Classes. Why oh why did no one bother to record her Brünnhilde either? 

While book shopping this weekend I picked up the Anne Edwards bio of Callas and also Sacred Monster (mostly for the trove of scrumptious photographs). Both were used and ridiculously cheap so I couldn't resist (a common thread for me on this website....)


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

gardibolt said:


> I particularly mourn the absence of a Callas Fidelio. I still need to track down the fragment from the Juilliard Master Classes. Why oh why did no one bother to record her Brünnhilde either?
> 
> While book shopping this weekend I picked up the Anne Edwards bio of Callas and also Sacred Monster (mostly for the trove of scrumptious photographs). Both were used and ridiculously cheap so I couldn't resist (a common thread for me on this website....)


YT upload by Operalala of the session on Leonore's scene in the Julliard Masterclass:






(Callas' instructions start at 08:23)

Unfortunately Divina Records' edition is all sold out.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

plumblossom said:


> YT upload by Operalala of the session on Leonore's scene in the Julliard Masterclass:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Callas sings just a few lines, but please note how her legato stays in tact even when singing in German.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Original post in "New Callas Box" thread reposted here:









Just received the Dec. 1949 performance of Nabucco at the Teatro San Carlo in Naples conducted by Vittorio Gui.

As read from Michael Scott's MMC, while Gui enjoyed working with Callas, Callas did not like him, finding him self-centred. But Callas' antipathy towards Gui doesn't affect the collaboration between the orchestral pit and the stage at all. She was after all a thorough professional and a trouper. Gui's traversal of the score has plenty of drive and slancio that this work needs, but at the same time he also allows enough room for Callas to make her expressive points.

The "ring", resonance and sheer molten lava-like quality of the voice of the heavy Callas in these early years is treasurable. For once I find myself able to agree wholeheartedly with Scott - the forward placement, the rhythmic vitality and the responsiveness of the voice make Abigaille's recitative and aria viscerally moving and the cabaletta a viscerally thrilling experience for a listener. The other highlight is the confrontation between Abigaille and Nabucco in Act 3, in which Callas pulls out all her dramatic stops and caps the conclusion of the "duel" with tremendous ringing E-flat - a stunner. Gino Bechi is no Gobbi. He has a powerful voice but simply lacks Gobbi's nuances and variety of tone colours. Furthermore he sang in a too relentlessly forceful way that can tire one's ears. But at least he is able to match Callas in terms of volume and amplitude (though hardly in terms of expressivity and phrasing) in the "duel" (and it received one of the loudest applauses of the evening).

The sound is poor, and the balance favours the orchestra at the expense of the voices and there are times when the voices are submerged by the orchestra. I would hesitate over whether to vote for this performance for the TC Most Recommended Opera CDs and DVDs thread (the polling for Nabucco is not going to happen soon) because there seems to be no better-sounding edition.

Abigaille's solo scene in Act 2 of Nabucco, from the 1949 San Carlo performance:


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

What also amazes me about Callas is how she could be so good in roles that she only recorded in studio or those that she only a few times live. Operas like La Boheme and Carmen and others. It's amazing how much effort she put in even these roles. Many singers need many performances to get the most out of a role, but Callas needed only one chance.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Diminuendo said:


> What also amazes me about Callas is how she could be so good in roles that she only recorded in studio or those that she only a few times live. Operas like La Boheme and Carmen and others. It's amazing how much effort she put in even these roles. Many singers need many performances to get the most out of a role, but Callas needed only one chance.


Yes but there are other singers who did that. Price and de Los Angeles for Carmen, for example. Sutherland for Turandot and M Price for Isolde with Kleiber. In the Bohm Cosi fan Tutte the male leads had not sung the parts before.Callas certainly was not unique in this.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Yes but there are other singers who did that. Price and de Los Angeles for Carmen, for example. Sutherland for Turandot and M Price for Isolde with Kleiber. In the Bohm Cosi fan Tutte the male leads had not sung the parts before.Callas certainly was not unique in this.


A good musician can make a good thing out of a work first time out. They do it all the time. Nobody doubts it.

Callas did more. Never having performed a role before, she nevertheless created characterizations of unbelievable detail and indelible distinctiveness, in some cases richer and more insightful than those of any other singer on record no matter how great their experience of the role.

She most certainly was unique.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> A good musician can make a good thing out of a work first time out. They do it all the time. Nobody doubts it.
> 
> Callas did more. Never having performed a role before, she nevertheless created characterizations of unbelievable detail and indelible distinctiveness, in some cases richer and more insightful than those of any other singer on record no matter how great their experience of the role.
> 
> She most certainly was unique.


I agree, but I was trying to say she wasn't quite as unique as some people make her out to be. Other singers are also very versatile.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Yes but there are other singers who did that. Price and de Los Angeles for Carmen, for example. Sutherland for Turandot and M Price for Isolde with Kleiber. In the Bohm Cosi fan Tutte the male leads had not sung the parts before.Callas certainly was not unique in this.


Yes, but very few could do it in a single aria. I'd also point out that De Los Angeles did sing Carmen on stage, though I don't find her rather too ladylike Carmen that convincing, and I'm a huge De Los Angeles fan.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

I would not want to be without De Los Angeles' Mimi. In fact her rendition of Mimi and that of Callas ate the ONLY two I would take to the proverbial desert island.

Yet there are instances where the shaping and colouring of certain crucial phrases/sung texts came out more strikingly and unforgettably in Callas' singing than De Los Angeles' (and other Mimis'). In his article *"The Performance Practice of Maria Callas: Interpretation and Instinct"*, published in *The OPERA QUARTELY*, Vol. 20, Issue 4 (Autumn 2004), RES gave the following analysis:

*"Mimì in La Bohème is a role that Callas only learned for EMI, yet her development of its musico-rhetorical content is beyond the accomplishments of other recorded Mimìs. Callas's moments of musical and human revelation in her complete 1956 EMI Bohème are so numerous that they would constitute a separate article, but it is almost her first utterance that sets her apart. Near the beginning of her introduction aria, "Sì, mi chiamano Mimì," Callas "pronounces" the following simple line unlike any other artist: "La storia mia è breve." Singers generally don't bother much about the line; it is intoned on a single pitch and is less interesting to them than what precedes or follows it. Callas, on the other hand, treats it as a necessary focus, with a shape that carries everything else forward. The first four words are lifted with a slight crescendo to "breve" on which Callas stresses the first syllable, relaxing, shortening, and covering the second, singing it more softly-using vocal weight, time, dynamics, and vocal coloring to bring it to life. It is all apparent in the instrumental scoring, yet no other singers take their cue from the music which, in turn, reflects natural spoken rhythm. Callas narrates the line as "heightened speech": "breve" consists of a longer, stressed syllable followed by a shorter unstressed one. Callas was not even a native Italian speaker, yet not one other recorded Mimì, Italian or otherwise, finds the correct interaction of music and text here. Callas shaped the line similarly when she recorded the aria for her 1954 EMI Puccini recital, but in the complete 1956 recording, she is so much more attuned to every nuance of the music that her manner of intoning the line has far-reaching interpretive ramifications."*


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> Yes, *but very few could do it in a single aria*. I'd also point out that De Los Angeles did sing Carmen on stage, though I don't find her rather too ladylike Carmen that convincing, and I'm a huge De Los Angeles fan.


Not sure what you mean by 'in a single aria.

De los Angeles did sing Carmen on stage but only after her recording with Beecham. Yes she is somewhat too 'nice' for me, but she based her interpretation on Spanish gypsies she had known who were charming rather than smouldering. Given the intent it is a superb Carmen.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

plumblossom said:


> I would not want to be without De Los Angeles' Mimi. In fact her rendition of Mimi and that of Callas ate the ONLY two I would take to the proverbial desert island.
> 
> Yet there are instances where the shaping and colouring of certain crucial phrases/sung texts came out more strikingly and unforgettably in Callas' singing than De Los Angeles' (and other Mimis'). In his article *"The Performance Practice of Maria Callas: Interpretation and Instinct"*, published in *The OPERA QUARTELY*, Vol. 20, Issue 4 (Autumn 2004), RES gave the following analysis:
> 
> *"Mimì in La Bohème is a role that Callas only learned for EMI, yet her development of its musico-rhetorical content is beyond the accomplishments of other recorded Mimìs. Callas's moments of musical and human revelation in her complete 1956 EMI Bohème are so numerous that they would constitute a separate article, but it is almost her first utterance that sets her apart. Near the beginning of her introduction aria, "Sì, mi chiamano Mimì," Callas "pronounces" the following simple line unlike any other artist: "La storia mia è breve." Singers generally don't bother much about the line; it is intoned on a single pitch and is less interesting to them than what precedes or follows it. Callas, on the other hand, treats it as a necessary focus, with a shape that carries everything else forward. The first four words are lifted with a slight crescendo to "breve" on which Callas stresses the first syllable, relaxing, shortening, and covering the second, singing it more softly-using vocal weight, time, dynamics, and vocal coloring to bring it to life. It is all apparent in the instrumental scoring, yet no other singers take their cue from the music which, in turn, reflects natural spoken rhythm. Callas narrates the line as "heightened speech": "breve" consists of a longer, stressed syllable followed by a shorter unstressed one. Callas was not even a native Italian speaker, yet not one other recorded Mimì, Italian or otherwise, finds the correct interaction of music and text here. Callas shaped the line similarly when she recorded the aria for her 1954 EMI Puccini recital, but in the complete 1956 recording, she is so much more attuned to every nuance of the music that her manner of intoning the line has far-reaching interpretive ramifications."*


I would certainly take Freni with me too, with Schippers or Karajan. With respect to RES others have seen Callas' Mimi somewhat differently but I agree it is a remarkable interpretation. Whether she is the most 'natural' Mimi as compared with de los Angeles or Freni is another thing.,


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Not sure what you mean by 'in a single aria.


Well take, for instance, Callas's Puccini recital. Many singers have recorded albums of Puccini Arias (Caballe, Price, Gheorghiu etc) and these discs are all very beautiful, but they mostly come across as a group of gorgeous tunes beautifully sung, whereas Callas adopts a different voice character for each one. Manon, Mimi, Butterfly, Angelica, Lauretta, Liu and Turandot all emerge as distinct and individual characters. Admittedly one is less able to just sit back and wallow, but it makes for a much more varied listening experience. And also note that the only one of these roles that Callas had actually sung at this stage was Turandot, yet she completely inhabits each role. Few singers can do that in a single aria.

By contrast, I have Leontyne Price's Prina Donna Box set, which contains all the Prima Donna recitals she recorded over about a ten year period. The range of music is wide, taking in Handel, Gluck, Mozart, Wagner, even Britten, but the interpretive range is narrow. There isn't really much difference between the way she sings Handel and the way she sings Verdi. Price once said that she loved the sound of her own voice, and, in a negative sense, it rather sounds like that, as if she went into the studio, sang through the aria a couple of times, pronounced herself happy and left. That may seem a little unfair, but I sense no real identification with the music she is singing, nothing specific in her interpretations, save in those few arias from operas she sang on stage, an impression which became more pronounced in the later recitals. Predictably it is the Verdi that comes off best. I was really excited to get this set but I have to say I found it profoundly disappointing.

Not that Price is alone. Most recital discs I find unsatisfactory for the same reasons. Nor is Callas entirely alone in her ability to make a recital a more rewarding listening experience. In a completely different repertoire, Schwarzkopf was also able to create distinct voice characters.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

plumblossom said:


> I would not want to be without De Los Angeles' Mimi. In fact her rendition of Mimi and that of Callas ate the ONLY two I would take to the proverbial desert island.
> 
> Yet there are instances where the shaping and colouring of certain crucial phrases/sung texts came out more strikingly and unforgettably in Callas' singing than De Los Angeles' (and other Mimis'). In his article *"The Performance Practice of Maria Callas: Interpretation and Instinct"*, published in *The OPERA QUARTELY*, Vol. 20, Issue 4 (Autumn 2004), RES gave the following analysis:
> 
> *"Mimì in La Bohème is a role that Callas only learned for EMI, yet her development of its musico-rhetorical content is beyond the accomplishments of other recorded Mimìs. Callas's moments of musical and human revelation in her complete 1956 EMI Bohème are so numerous that they would constitute a separate article, but it is almost her first utterance that sets her apart. Near the beginning of her introduction aria, "Sì, mi chiamano Mimì," Callas "pronounces" the following simple line unlike any other artist: "La storia mia è breve." Singers generally don't bother much about the line; it is intoned on a single pitch and is less interesting to them than what precedes or follows it. Callas, on the other hand, treats it as a necessary focus, with a shape that carries everything else forward. The first four words are lifted with a slight crescendo to "breve" on which Callas stresses the first syllable, relaxing, shortening, and covering the second, singing it more softly-using vocal weight, time, dynamics, and vocal coloring to bring it to life. It is all apparent in the instrumental scoring, yet no other singers take their cue from the music which, in turn, reflects natural spoken rhythm. Callas narrates the line as "heightened speech": "breve" consists of a longer, stressed syllable followed by a shorter unstressed one. Callas was not even a native Italian speaker, yet not one other recorded Mimì, Italian or otherwise, finds the correct interaction of music and text here. Callas shaped the line similarly when she recorded the aria for her 1954 EMI Puccini recital, but in the complete 1956 recording, she is so much more attuned to every nuance of the music that her manner of intoning the line has far-reaching interpretive ramifications."*


I would add one other instance where Callas does something quite remarkable in Act III. It's a moment that always brings a lump to my throat in Callas's performance, though it usually goes unnoticed. Towards the end of her duet with Marcello, Marcello tells Mimi that Rodolfo is sleeping, and Mimi responds with the question "Dorme?" Using the gentlest of upward portamenti, Callas invests in that one word all the tender love that Mimi has for Rodolfo. It's this kind of attention to detail that sets Callas apart, the way that at any moment a line of recitative, even a single word, is brought into sharp relief.

She does a similar thing in "Rigoletto" when she gives the word "uscitene" a very strange colouring, as she asks the Duke to leave. When asked why she coloured the word in that way, she replied that Gilda says go, but she wants him to stay.


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## Braddan (Aug 23, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> Well take, for instance, Callas's Puccini recital. Many singers have recorded albums of Puccini Arias (Caballe, Price, Gheorghiu etc) and these discs are all very beautiful, but they mostly come across as a group of gorgeous tunes beautifully sung, whereas Callas adopts a different voice character for each one. Manon, Mimi, Butterfly, Angelica, Lauretta, Liu and Turandot all emerge as distinct and individual characters. Admittedly one is less able to just sit back and wallow, but it makes for a much more varied listening experience. And also note that the only one of these roles that Callas had actually sung at this stage was Turandot, yet she completely inhabits each role. Few singers can do that in a single aria.
> 
> *By contrast, I have Leontyne Price's Prina Donna Box set, which contains all the Prima Donna recitals she recorded over about a ten year period. The range of music is wide, taking in Handel, Gluck, Mozart, Wagner, even Britten, but the interpretive range is narrow. There isn't really much difference between the way she sings Handel and the way she sings Verdi. Price once said that she loved the sound of her own voice, and, in a negative sense, it rather sounds like that, as if she went into the studio, sang through the aria a couple of times, pronounced herself happy and left. That may seem a little unfair, but I sense no real identification with the music she is singing, nothing specific in her interpretations, save in those few arias from operas she sang on stage, an impression which became more pronounced in the later recitals. Predictably it is the Verdi that comes off best. I was really excited to get this set but I have to say I found it profoundly disappointing. *
> Not that Price is alone. Most recital discs I find unsatisfactory for the same reasons. Nor is Callas entirely alone in her ability to make a recital a more rewarding listening experience. In a completely different repertoire, Schwarzkopf was also able to create distinct voice characters.


I was also rather disappointed in this Price set. For a long time she was my "go to" choice for Verdi recordings and although I still enjoy listening to her in the complete operas, I found very little variation in the Prima Donna set. In contrast, I was listening to the remastered Callas Abbey Studios recital from 1954 only yesterday and was impressed with the way she appears to _inhabit _each character in this context. From the pathos of the Cilea and Giordano to the joyful playfulness of the Rossini. It's all there and makes for a far richer listening experience.







Now here's a thing- true appreciation of this great artist is a fairly new experience for me. I was put off in my early days by hearing poor quality recordings and making a judgement that I didn't like the timbre of her voice. Before I am ex-communicated from this forum I have to say I have* entirely *changed my view. The how and why is best left for another time. I am no expert so it's good to see the exchange of views here as well as the recommendations and links.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Braddan said:


> I was also rather disappointed in this Price set. For a long time she was my "go to" choice for Verdi recordings and although I still enjoy listening to her in the complete operas, I found very little variation in the Prima Donna set. In contrast, I was listening to the remastered Callas Abbey Studios recital from 1954 only yesterday and was impressed with the way she appears to _inhabit _each character in this context. From the pathos of the Cilea and Giordano to the joyful playfulness of the Rossini. It's all there and makes for a far richer listening experience.
> View attachment 74362
> 
> Now here's a thing- true appreciation of this great artist is a fairly new experience for me. I was put off in my early days by hearing poor quality recordings and making a judgement that I didn't like the timbre of her voice. Before I am ex-communicated from this forum I have to say I have* entirely *changed my view. The how and why is best left for another time. I am no expert so it's good to see the exchange of views here as well as the recommendations and links.


You will not be excommunicated for admitting that you needed a little time for Callas to win you over. Not everyone is expected to recognize divinity instantly.

The ninth circle of hell is reserved for those who never get won over.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Braddan said:


> I was also rather disappointed in this Price set. For a long time she was my "go to" choice for Verdi recordings and although I still enjoy listening to her in the complete operas, I found very little variation in the Prima Donna set. In contrast, I was listening to the remastered Callas Abbey Studios recital from 1954 only yesterday and was impressed with the way she appears to _inhabit _each character in this context. From the pathos of the Cilea and Giordano to the joyful playfulness of the Rossini. It's all there and makes for a far richer listening experience.
> View attachment 74362
> 
> Now here's a thing- true appreciation of this great artist is a fairly new experience for me. I was put off in my early days by hearing poor quality recordings and making a judgement that I didn't like the timbre of her voice. Before I am ex-communicated from this forum I have to say I have* entirely *changed my view. The how and why is best left for another time. I am no expert so it's good to see the exchange of views here as well as the recommendations and links.


Not everyone "gets" Callas immediately, and some people never do. Once you do "get" her though, she is like a sickness from which there is no recovery, not that I'd ever want to, of course. She has been enriching my life now for the best part of 40 years.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

The following has been originally posted in the "New Callas Box" thread in response to a query from a new member regarding the best-sounding CD edition of all extant versions of Callas' Traviata:

1951 Mexico City - de Fabritiis - Myto Historical line edition

1952 Mexico City - Mugnai - ebay seller arsvocalis' CD-R edition (transferred from BJR 130)

1953 Cetra (studio) - Santini - Warner Callas Remastered edition (2014)

1955 La Scala - Giulini - ebay seller arsvocalis' CD-R edition (reworking of Foyer 2CF 2001)

1956 La Scala - Giulini - Myto Historical line edition

1958 Lisbon - Ghione - Myto Historical line edition [clone of the incorrectly EQed 2000 RDP edition (transferred from original tapes owned by the Portuguese Public Radio)]. The Pearl edition is a more correctly EQed reworking of the RDP edition, but now only one exorbitantly priced copy of it is available from a third-party Amazon marketplace seller.

1958 Covent Garden - Rescigno - Myto Historical line edition (clone of the yellow-cover Melodram 26007). Melodram 26007, which had been recommended by RES as the best-sounding CD edition, is now extremely difficult to find.

No other live performance of Callas' TRAVIATA (apart from the 6 live performances currently available) has emerged.

I would say the 1958 Covent Garden version (as heard on Myto Historical line edition) is the best-sounding among the available live versions. This version also contains the best chemistry between Callas and her co-principals. Moreover, one can hear Callas warming up her voice briefly when the Act 1 Prelude began. Callas may have pronounced vocal problems, but I think this is interpretively her most complete and finished Violetta, with a number of truly unforgettable moments that can be forever etched in one's memory (such as the suspended-in-the-air B-flat just before the descend to "Dite alla giovine" in the Act 2 duet with Mario Zanasi's Giorgio Germont).


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

plumblossom said:


> The following has been originally posted in the "New Callas Box" thread in response to a query from a new member regarding the best-sounding CD edition of all extant versions of Callas' Traviata:
> 
> 1951 Mexico City - de Fabritiis - Myto Historical line edition
> 
> ...


I have all those except for the 1951 and 1956 recordings, I don't hear much difference from Callas in 55 and 56 and the 55 recording has di Stefano in it rather than Raimondi. The 1951 recording is a fascinating record of Callas' Violetta before she toned certain things down and added nuanced shadings to her delivery of some of the lines, however it is in appalling sound. Fortunately the 1952 recording is in the same mould and in much better sound. Whilst Ars Vocalis is taking a break, the Myto recording of the 1952 Traviata is the best available version (and I believe is in similar sound as the Ars Vocalis release as it too was taken from BJR LPs).

N.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

plumblossom said:


> The following has been originally posted in the "New Callas Box" thread in response to a query from a new member regarding the best-sounding CD edition of all extant versions of Callas' Traviata:
> 
> 1951 Mexico City - de Fabritiis - Myto Historical line edition
> 
> ...


Nice list PB, I have all those versions and have a couple comments......

For the 53 studio recording I find the *Pristine XR with ambient stereo *the best sounding even better than new Warner release, although the male voices are not the very best available we get really great studio sound for Maria and hear a wealth of insight into the character of Violetta

For live Traviatas I *prefer the 55 Giulini* overall (combination sound and performance) especially with improved sound from arsvocalis, this was debated in the Callas thread but still remains my choice......


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Nice list PB, I have all those versions and have a couple comments......
> 
> For the 53 studio recording I find the *Pristine XR with ambient stereo *the best sounding even better than new Warner release, although the male voices are not the very best available we get really great studio sound for Maria and hear a wealth of insight into the character of Violetta
> 
> For live Traviatas I *prefer the 55 Giulini* overall (combination sound and performance) especially with improved sound from arsvocalis, this was debated in the Callas thread but still remains my choice......


The wooden Bastianini is a *major* problem for me in the 1955 La Scala performance, in particular the crucial Act 2 scene between Violetta and Germont. Had Gobbi been chosen instead to sing in the Visconti production, this would be my favourite Callas TRAVIATA.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

plumblossom said:


> The wooden Bastianini is a *major* problem for me in the 1955 La Scala performance, in particular the crucial Act 2 scene between Violetta and Germont. Had Gobbi been chosen instead to sing in the Visconti production, this would be my favourite Callas TRAVIATA.


I have a different take on Bastianni, a stern father figure looking out for his son's welfare, works for me


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> I have a different take on Bastianni, a stern father figure looking out for his son's welfare, works for me


I find Bastianini too stern and poker-faced. This may work well in the earlier part of the Germont-Violetta encounter, but in the later part where Germont tried to convince Violetta to give up Alfredo, I find Bastianini's inability to vary his tone color and lack of interpretive nuance a great liability, especially in Germont's grateful responses to Violetta's declaration of self-sacrifice.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> I have a different take on Bastianni, a stern father figure looking out for his son's welfare, works for me


I have to say that I agree. I understand the criticism, but it seems right for the character to me. I also like Zanasi's refined, aristocratic Germont on the 1958 recording.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DarkAngel said:


> I have a different take on Bastianni, a stern father figure looking out for his son's welfare, works for me


But he sings everything at a monotonous forte. There is no nuance to his performance. Both Sereni and Zanasi are so much better in Lisbon and London, and, because of their sympathetic support, Callas is able to go still further in her realisation of this great duet.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Not to rehash to Callas thread discussions, but I don't find Ettore monotonous or wooden, just playing the stern father........

We must agree to disagree


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

plumblossom said:


> The *wooden Bastianini *is a *major* problem for me in the 1955 La Scala performance, in particular the crucial Act 2 scene between Violetta and Germont. Had Gobbi been chosen instead to sing in the Visconti production, this would be my favourite Callas TRAVIATA.


I had the Rigoletto with Bastianini and Scotto. I must confess that I found his voice magnificent but his whole portrayal colourless. It boggles the mind why Culshaw wanted him for Iago in Karajan's Otello, especially as he was new to it. At least Protti, the stand in, knew the role and gave a reasonable (not great) performance. I could see Bastianini being a colourless as Protti was in his first recording with Erede.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

plumblossom said:


> The wooden Bastianini is a *major* problem for me in the 1955 La Scala performance, in particular the crucial Act 2 scene between Violetta and Germont. Had Gobbi been chosen instead to sing in the Visconti production, this would be my favourite Callas TRAVIATA.


Gobbi would have been so geat. And if Callas could have done the studio recording that Di Stefano and Gobbi did. Oh well...


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Diminuendo said:


> Gobbi would have been so geat. And if Callas could have done the studio recording that Di Stefano and Gobbi did. Oh well...


1955 recording, Callas was not happy with Serafin for this recording and EMI never released it on CD, a real mess up.......bad blood


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DarkAngel said:


> 1955 recording, Callas was not happy with Serafin for this recording and EMI never released it on CD, a real mess up.......bad blood


One of the biggest mistakes of Legge's career. He should have waited till Callas was free to record it, or come to an arrangement with Cetra. As it is, this Stella version was a commercial flop, hence the reason EMI later issued the Lisbon *Traviata* to make up for the serious lack of a studio one with Callas.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Well luckily there are many live ones available. I have nothing against Bastianini, who for a long time I thought was Bastianni  He is just not that great acting wise. A pity that Callas didn't record other French operas than Carmen, since the French recital discs are great. Her singing style carried over well from Italian to French. I'm sure she would have been great in German too.

And here is a remainder of Callas in French






I can just dream for Massenet's Manon with Di Stefano.

She really needed a longer career. So many great roles that she didn't do. This poem from Edna St. Vincent Millay is quite fitting I think (and for Pippo too)

My candle burns at both ends;
It will not last the night;
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends-
It gives a lovely light!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Diminuendo said:


> Well luckily there are many live ones available. I have nothing against Bastianini, who for a long time I thought was Bastianni  He is just not that great acting wise. A pity that Callas didn't record other French operas than Carmen, since the French recital discs are great. Her singing style carried over well from Italian to French. I'm sure she would have been great in German too.
> 
> And here is a remainder of Callas in French
> 
> ...


She also taped Duparc's _L'Invitation au voyage_ for this French TV appearance, but apparently time constraints meant that it was not transmitted, and it has been lost to us.

The French roles I most wish she had sung were Cassandre and Didon in *Les Troyens*. She sings Marguerite's _D'amour l'ardente flamme_ on her second French recital, and it shows what a deep affinity she had for Berlioz. The Berlioz scholar David Cairns, avers that it is the best version of the aria available, remarking, _Who would not wither in the flame of her genius_.


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## RES (Oct 30, 2014)

Deleted by author


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## RES (Oct 30, 2014)

Deleted by author


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

RES said:


> On another note. Hi, DA. If Bastianini's loud, emotionally unresponsive 1955 Germont was a deliberate effort to ignore the emotional content of such moving passages ias 'Piangi! Piangi, piangi...' then why was he noticeably better in 1956?


Was he? I don't hear that in his 1956 rendition of the role.

N.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

RES said:


> On another note. Hi, DA. If Bastianini's loud, emotionally unresponsive 1955 Germont was a deliberate effort to ignore the emotional content of such moving passages ias 'Piangi! Piangi, piangi...' then why was he noticeably better in 1956?


Greetings RES

I suspect singers vary/modify their performances from year to year or even day to day depending on thier mood, crowd response, conductor or the other singers they perform with, who knows what his motivations were on any given nights performance.......he must have felt that was the right technique for that night, and a year later he decided to try something slightly different and perhaps better 

I have many Verdi recordings with him during his abbreviated career (died from cancer) many of them are some of my favorites, he seemed to be very popular and well respected being chosen to sing/record with all the "A" list singers of the time at la Scala and MET, must have been doing something right......


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Deleted by author.


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## RES (Oct 30, 2014)

Deleted by author


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Two is already two too many for some people on this forum
> 
> Not me, obviously


But who's counting? The first one won the heart- and now the second one won one too.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

plumblossom said:


> View attachment 73959
> 
> 
> Has anyone read this biography by German writer and critic Jurgen Kesting. If you have, how do you find it?


A bit general in analysis- but with some absolutely 'great' pictures of Callas in the Lisbon _Traviata_.

- But if you're a Callas Fan you need it anyway. _;D_


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## RES (Oct 30, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Greetings RES
> 
> I suspect singers vary/modify their performances from year to year or even day to day depending on thier mood, crowd response, conductor or the other singers they perform with, who knows what his motivations were on any given nights performance.......he must have felt that was the right technique for that night, and a year later he decided to try something slightly different and perhaps better
> 
> I have many Verdi recordings with him during his abbreviated career (died from cancer) many of them are some of my favorites, he seemed to be very popular and well respected being chosen to sing/record with all the "A" list singers of the time at la Scala and MET, must have been doing something right......


Indeed, Bastianini was the best. Only Gobbi provided more insight, but no one had Bastianini's amazing baritone voice, and also passion (e.g., 1958 TV FORZA with ever-impassioned Corelli); he's a major reason why both studio and live Callas BALLOs are necessary. The over-distant Germont in 1955 Scala TRAVIATA Act II, sc. 1 is strange, especially when Callas is so searing. I think Germont is supposed to melt, at least by the end of it, and is already impressed upon meeting Violetta, finding her more dignified and noble than he imagined. Strange choice on Bastianini's part. Could be for any number of reasons, behind the scenes. Heck, di Stefano didn't enjoy himself at all, and left right after the performance.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> You will not be excommunicated for admitting that you needed a little time for Callas to win you over. Not everyone is expected to recognize divinity instantly.
> 
> The ninth circle of hell is reserved for those who never get won over.


The gates 'do' say: "All Hope Abandon Ye Who Disparage Her."

So Nimrod and Ephialtes have nothing on your modal Callas Denier.

Callas Agnostics are safe though. :angel:

(My Mariolatry only goes so far.)


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> The gates 'do' say: "All Hope Abandon Ye Who Disparage Her."
> 
> So Nimrod and Ephialtes have nothing on your modal Callas Denier.
> 
> ...


Welcome back! You have been missed greatly around here


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

And here is something to help all of us to remember why we love La Divina. Not that it's really necessary  Might be useful if you get a concussion and suffer from memory loss.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Diminuendo said:


> And here is something to help all of us to remember why we love La Divina. Not that it's really necessary  Might be useful if you get a concussion and suffer from memory loss.


One of the greatest You Tube videos. . . . . . 'EV-ER.'


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> A bit general in analysis- but with some absolutely 'great' pictures of Callas in the Lisbon _Traviata_.
> 
> - But if you're a Callas Fan you need it anyway. _;D_


Much thanks for your feedback. Meanwhile, if I remember correctly, those fabulous pictures in the book feature the legendary 1955 Visconti production at La Scala, rather than the 1958 Lisbon performance.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

plumblossom said:


> Much thanks for your feedback. Meanwhile, if I remember correctly, those fabulous pictures in the book feature the legendary 1955 Visconti production at La Scala, rather than the 1958 Lisbon performance.


Well, you can't un-blonde the Blonde- even when I run to the bookshelves to double-check and to shore-up how right I know I am.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Thanks for that, plummie. <Nose-to-nose rub.>

How right you are.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Callas' Dalila is one of my all time favorite wicked and sexy _femme fatale_ cuts in opera:

_"Samson, recherchant ma presence"_

DALILA:_
Samson, recherchant ma présence,
ce soir doit venir en ces *lieux*.
Voici l'heure de la vengeance
qui doit *satisfaire nos dieux* !
Amour ! viens aider ma faiblesse !
Verse le poison dans son sein !
Fais que, vaincu par mon adresse,
Samson soit enchaîné demain !
Il voudrait en vain de son âme
pourvoir me chasser, me bannir !
Pourrait-il éteindre la flamme
qu'alimente le souvenir ?
Il est à moi ! c'est mon esclave !
Mes frères craignent son courroux ;
moi, seule entre tous, je le *brave*,
et le retiens à mes genoux !
Amour ! viens aider ma faiblesse, etc.
Contre l'amour sa force est vaine ;
et lui, le fort parmi les forts,
lui, qui d'un peuple rompt la chaîne,
succombera sous mes efforts !_

Yes, Samson- She's singing to 'you.'

"_. . . ce soir doit venir en ces *lieux*_"- ". . . when evening comes to this place"

This is 'so' wickedly awesome.

I love how Callas does this. I love the way Saint-Saens scores it.

Her inflection on the word '_lieux_' perfectly presages the erotically-dangerous strings that follow.

And then the way she delivers the following ". . . _*satisfaire nos dieux*_"- ". . . satisfy our gods"- this Diva takes heads and ears. Its. . . just so glamorous. . . 'so' erotic. . . and so chillingly 'evil'- I just play it over and over. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

And then- "_*moi, seule entre tous, je le brave*_"- "I alone of all, brave him."
_
AWESOME!_

The way she delivers 'brave' is thrilling.

You've got to hear it.

Get out the Box Set.

Put it on.

BLAST IT!!

_;D_


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

While there is much that is echt-Callas in the two French recitals, I think that the 3 Samson arias and the Berlioz are the particularly special highlights.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Becca said:


> While there is much that is echt-Callas in the two French recitals, I think that the 3 Samson arias and the Berlioz are the particularly special highlights.


Oh God yes!

Her Saint-Saens and Berlioz are completely indescribable. Her Berlioz just levels me and her Saint-Saens wickedly empowers me.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Good night plummie, pannie, and Becca.

My TC e-mail box is full and I still have to delete over 500 PM's before it will be operational.

- Absurd, I know.

So I have to say good bye all exhibitionistically (so 'un-me' I know) on the main board.

<Kisses to everyone.>


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Becca said:


> While there is much that is echt-Callas in the two French recitals, I think that the 3 Samson arias and the Berlioz are the particularly special highlights.


I'd agree but I'd add Chimene's _Pleurez mes yeux_ and Charlotte's _Letter Scene_.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Hearing later Callas is sometimes painful. I'm always willing to listen though. She always gives her best and later on it's not always pretty. But at least she is trying her best. We the listeners all now that she would want to be better and she surely knew what she sounded like. It must have been hell to her to not be able to do better later on. As she was so self critical and a perfectionist. I'm personally glad of even the last concert tour with Di Stefano. Even in the later recordings the only painful times really are the high notes. If 99% is sublime, then I don't care. If only she had done the same. But no, she had to stick to her guns for the bitter end. A change of repertory or at least omitting the high notes would have done wonders. Like Zeffirelli said about the high notes: "Most people wouldn't even have known the difference, and those who did, if they really understood who Callas was, would not have cared in the least."






After seeing this can you honestly say that you would miss a few notes? Opera is so much more than that, ain't it?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Diminuendo said:


> *Hearing later Callas is sometimes painful. I'm always willing to listen though. She always gives her best and later on it's not always pretty. *But at least she is trying her best. We the listeners all now that she would want to be better and she surely knew what she sounded like. It must have been hell to her to not be able to do better later on. As she was so self critical and a perfectionist. I'm personally glad of even the last concert tour with Di Stefano. Even in the later recordings the only painful times really are the high notes. If 99% is sublime, then I don't care. If only she had done the same. But no, she had to stick to her guns for the bitter end. A change of repertory or at least omitting the high notes would have done wonders. Like Zeffirelli said about the high notes: "Most people wouldn't even have known the difference, and those who did, if they really understood who Callas was, would not have cared in the least."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True.

Equally true is that we remember people at their best.

Spencer's_ Faerie Queen_ is all he needs for Renaissance greatness- anything else written by him is merely incidental.
_
Mutatis mutandis_ for Maria Callas and the best of her _oeuvre. _


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> True.
> 
> Equally true is that we remember people at their best.
> 
> ...


'Mutatis mutandis' always makes me think of that Rameau production at ENO where everybody swapped underwear with each other.

N.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

The Conte said:


> 'Mutatis mutandis' always makes me think of that Rameau production at ENO where everybody swapped underwear with each other.
> N.





















I wouldn't call a person exchanging underwear in an airport bathroom stall while listening to Rameau a 'Campy Comedy Queen'- but I would call him a 'U.S. Senator.'

- I have to give credit where its due. _;D_


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Callas' Duchess Elena from the '51 Kleiber Florence_ I Vespri Siciliani _really is a vocal force of nature.

Singing with a more pressing exigency of character touching on every super-sensual syllable of text can scarcely be imagined.

Literally.

I love the first aria of hers- "_In alto mare e battuto dai venti._" The way she articulates "_Osate! L'alta impresa iddio proteggera!_" ("Dare! God will protect the lofty enterprise!") is absolutely skin-tingling white hot.

I was comparing and contrasting some different "_Merce, dilette amiche_('s)": the Levine Arroyo, the '75 Scotto, and the '59 Sutherland.

Arroyo is very beautiful- but emotionally light; Scotto is emotionally poignant but a bit clever in some of the delivery- and of course brilliantly sung; Sutherland is emotionally placid but near perfect in delivery. . . at least from a strictly 'musical' frame of reference and not a dramatic one.

- And then there's the Callas. -

'No one' approaches the fresh and enchanting dramatic ingenuity of Callas by an order of magnitude- I know: small wonder.

But of course the aria I like even more than "_Merce, dilette amiche_" is "_Arrigo! Ah, parli a un corre_"- the ending of which cleaves my heart.

_Addio! m'attende il cielo!
Addio! m'i serba fe!
Io muoio, io muoio! E il mortal velo
spoglio pensando a te.
Ah! mi serba fe. . ._

(Farewell! Heaven awaits me!
Farewell! Keep faith with me!
I die, I die! And the mortal veil
I shed, thinking of you.
Ah! Keep faith with me. . .)

I'm getting sucked right up to heaven with her.

_O Maria! Che calor!_


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

The sheer royal grandeur, nobility and dignity of Callas' deportment as the Duchess Elena, at her proper, official debut at La Scala on Dec 7, 1951, carrying the honour of opening the 1951-52 season. Even the devious politician Ghiringhelli had to give in to the will of the people and open up the way for Callas to ascend to the throne of the Queen of La Scala. ;D


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Callas' Duchess Elena from the '51 Kleiber Florence_ I Vespri Siciliani _really is a vocal force of nature.
> 
> Singing with a more pressing exigency of character touching on every super-sensual syllable of text can scarcely be imagined.
> 
> ...


Cher Marschallin,

as you have so rightly pointed out the Callas Vespri is something truly special and I am sure you will agree that we are fortunate to have some studio recordings of two of the key moments from the role of Elena. I'm interested why you didn't compare any other versions of the bolero. My favourite recording of the opera would probably be the Muti recording with Cheryl Studer as Elena and she is the only soprano who comes anywhere close to Callas in this role. Do you have the Muti recording, it is well worth getting if you don't.

N.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

The Conte said:


> Cher Marschallin,
> 
> as you have so rightly pointed out the Callas Vespri is something truly special and I am sure you will agree that we are fortunate to have some studio recordings of two of the key moments from the role of Elena. I'm interested why you didn't compare any other versions of the bolero. My favourite recording of the opera would probably be the Muti recording with Cheryl Studer as Elena and she is the only soprano who comes anywhere close to Callas in this role. Do you have the Muti recording, it is well worth getting if you don't.
> 
> N.


Studer is the very first Duchess Elena I heard. I watched the filmed La Scala performance conducted by Muti on TV one day during the time when I was in high school. As far as I can remember, Studer sang very fluently, with some touching pathos here and there in "Arrigo! Ah, parli a un corre", but overall her portrayal didn't really leave a strong impression on me.

Now, my encounter with Callas' Duchess Elena: Years later, when I was a college undergraduate, I went to the Borders outlet in my city one day and saw the Opera d'oro edition of the 1951 Florence May Festival performance conducted by Erich Kleiber. Having read about John Ardoin's review of the performance in his book _The Callas Legacy_, I had already become very keen to get it. The cheap price of the Opera d'oro edition was a further attraction for me to buy the set. Upon hearing Callas' Duchess, I thought, *"OMG! This lady comes from a totally different galaxy!"* The wide palette of her tonal colours, her inflections, her expressive use of _portamenti_, her seamless legato, her capability of underlining or stressing the specific meanings of words and phrases through sheer musical means were one wonder after another. Moreover, she moved my heart, whereas Studer never really did when I watched and heard her years ago. It's even more amazing considering the fact that that I was only _hearing_ Callas. Ever since then, Callas remains my one and only Duchess Elena and to this day I feel that nobody comes even within a mile of her.

Later, I replaced the muffled-sounding Opera d'oro edition with the Testament edition, and sold away the Opera d'oro set.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

plumblossom said:


> Studer is the very first Duchess Elena I heard. I watched the filmed La Scala performance conducted by Muti on TV one day during the time when I was in high school. As far as I can remember, Studer sang very fluently, with some touching pathos here and there in "Arrigo! Ah, parli a un corre", but overall her portrayal didn't really leave a strong impression on me.
> 
> Now, my encounter with Callas' Duchess Elena: Years later, when I was a college undergraduate, I went to the Borders outlet in my city one day and saw the Opera d'oro edition of the 1951 Florence May Festival performance conducted by Erich Kleiber. Having read about John Ardoin's review of the performance in his book _The Callas Legacy_, I had already become very keen to get it. The cheap price of the Opera d'oro edition was a further attraction for me to buy the set. Upon hearing Callas' Duchess, I thought, *"OMG! This lady comes from a totally different galaxy!"* The wide palette of her tonal colours, her inflections, her expressive use of _portamenti_, her seamless legato, her capability of underlining or stressing the specific meanings of words and phrases through sheer musical means were one wonder after another. Moreover, she moved my heart, whereas Studer never really did when I watched and heard her years ago. It's even more amazing considering the fact that that I was only _hearing_ Callas. Ever since then, Callas remains my one and only Duchess Elena and to this day I feel that nobody comes even within a mile of her.
> 
> Later, I replaced the muffled-sounding Opera d'oro edition with the Testament edition, and sold away the Opera d'oro set.


My post was more a comparison between Studer and Arroyo et al. rather than a comparison Studer/Callas. Of course Callas' performance is on a whole different level, however that doesn't mean that I am not _moved_ by Studer's singing of the role.

N.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

The Conte said:


> My post was more a comparison between Studer and Arroyo et al. rather than a comparison Studer/Callas. Of course Callas' performance is on a whole different level, however that doesn't mean that I am not _moved_ by Studer's singing of the role.
> 
> N.


You are entitled to your own view and feelings regarding Studer of course, while I stand by mine. 

BTW, I had actually won the EMI set of the live La Scala performance conducted by Muti as a prize in a lucky draw conducted by my local Classical music radio station. Later, finding the set not that worthwhile continuing owning and at the same time in need for quick cash, I sold the set away cheaply to a second-hand goods dealer.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Diminuendo said:


> Hearing later Callas is sometimes painful. I'm always willing to listen though. She always gives her best and later on it's not always pretty. But at least she is trying her best. We the listeners all now that she would want to be better and she surely knew what she sounded like. It must have been hell to her to not be able to do better later on. As she was so self critical and a perfectionist. I'm personally glad of even the last concert tour with Di Stefano. Even in the later recordings the only painful times really are the high notes. If 99% is sublime, then I don't care. If only she had done the same. But no, she had to stick to her guns for the bitter end. A change of repertory or at least omitting the high notes would have done wonders. Like Zeffirelli said about the high notes: "Most people wouldn't even have known the difference, and those who did, if they really understood who Callas was, would not have cared in the least."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's only painful to me in the sense that there's a pang of regret at what she had been and that so many of her performances are in abominable sound or just went unrecorded altogether. Even at her lowest she's still phenomenal because she's putting so much into it.


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

please my friends, do not feel pain for Callas in her later years.

Maria is immortal
As Franco Zeffirelli said, she is the first soprano that overcame the boundaries of her art 
and was the "primadonna" who brought opera near the masses"
Callas is a legend

Nickolas Petsalis-Diomidis has written a very interesting book "The unknown Callas" 
which covers the first years "the green years" before she starts heading for the top.
And I love to see how she climbed the gold stairs.

A tape was found in her house in Paris and was first heard in 1979, 
when Municipality of Paris organized an event in her memory, in Museum Carnavalet.
This tape had Maria singing in 1939 the aria of Lauretta "o mio babbino caro" 
from Puccini's Gianni Schicchi, in her time in Athens conservatory. 
I am still looking for this recording.

In 1941, first time professionally, she sang in the operetta Boccaccio of Franz von Suppé
under the name of N. Galanou.
Her first appearance as a leading star was in 1942, singing Tosca.

In 1944 she had 2 big successes, in opera Tiefland of Eugen D'Albert 
which was a real triumph for her and Fidelio of Beethoven.
In the same year, she sang at the Masterbuilder of Manolis Kalomiris 
and Cavalleria Rusticana of Pietro Mascagni. 
It's then that she started her favourite style "bel canto".

The last performance she sang in Greece before she leaves to be a universal star 
was Carl Millöcker's operetta Der Bettelstudent, in which all people who attended it 
said she was exquisite.

Here a rare recording of casta diva, in her crystal voice.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

clara s said:


> please my friends, do not feel pain for Callas in her later years.
> 
> Maria is immortal
> As Franco Zeffirelli said, she is the first soprano that overcame the boundaries of her art
> ...


And to quote John Ford: "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend!"

I'm sure Maria felt enough pain herself in those last years.


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

DavidA said:


> And to quote John Ford: "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend!"
> 
> I'm sure Maria felt enough pain herself in those last years.


I am even more sure that Maria felt more pain being abandoned by Onassis than having problems with her voice

and to quote of Sarah Bernhardt "Legend remains victorious in spite of history" I would add, and in spite of printer


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Reposted from the "New Callas Box" thread ^^

Here is another article by Peter Mul, on *Callas in La Sonnambula*, published in Issue 51 (July 2007) of the *Maria Callas International Club Magazine*. Frankly, Mul furnished no new insights and he in fact lifted a lot from the views of George Jellinek and John Ardoin, but again it is those fabulous pictures of Callas on stage and backstage that make the article so worthwhile having (and our Marschallin dearest had used two of them for her previous homecoming greetings ;D).

































~continued below~


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

~continued from above~

































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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

~continued from above~

































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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

~continued from above~

































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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

~continued from above~

































~ uploading completed ^^ ~


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

plumblossom said:


> ~continued from above~
> 
> View attachment 74826
> 
> ...


'Goregous,' 'gorgeous,' 'gorgeous,' 'gorgeous,' 'gorgeous'- I had to say that five times for the five full sections of twenty pictures that you took the time and had the good grace to upload.

I'm going to print out the entire article and read it tomorrow at work.

_Merci beaucoup. _


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Cher Marschallin,
> 
> as you have so rightly pointed out the Callas Vespri is something truly special and I am sure you will agree that we are fortunate to have some studio recordings of two of the key moments from the role of Elena. I'm interested why you didn't compare any other versions of the bolero. My favourite recording of the opera would probably be the Muti recording with Cheryl Studer as Elena and she is the only soprano who comes anywhere close to Callas in this role. Do you have the Muti recording, it is well worth getting if you don't.
> 
> N.


_Mon ami,_ I only have so much time- and I'll have precious less of it when I'm at work 'tomorrow'- that's why I didn't listen to and comment on other versions of the bolero.

I don't have the Studer, and I of course would love to hear it- but I have to say to a candid world that I'm not a Studer fan. Although, truth to tell, the only things I can remember off the top of my head that I have by her are the Sinopoli _Die Frau ohne_ _Schatten_, Strauss' _Four Last Songs_, and _Tannhauser_. I'm always willing to learn- but you know how dramatic and well-thought-out I love my singing. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Thanks for mentioning the Studer.

<Clink.>


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

clara s said:


> I am even more sure that Maria felt more pain being abandoned by Onassis than having problems with her voice
> 
> and to quote of Sarah Bernhardt "Legend remains victorious in spite of history" I would add, and in spite of printer


I think Callas' 'whole world' collapsed.

Can you imagine knowing that your physical powers are on the wane- and that the love of your life just cavalierly abandoned you?

I can't even 'dream' how she must have felt.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I think Callas' 'whole world' collapsed.
> 
> Can you imagine knowing that your physical powers are on the wane- and that the love of your life just cavalierly abandoned you?
> 
> I can't even 'dream' how she must have felt.


Mind you, she did choose to leave her first husband for him. She was not just a helpless victim.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

With her vocal powers waning, a big void was gradually opening up in her life. She thought that Onassis and jet-set high society life were the answers for her to fill that void. As it turned out, she miscalculated badly and by the time she realized this, it was already far too late. Her life between 1957-77 can basically be summarized as ""From the Queen of Opera to the Greek Tragedy Queen".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Mind you, she did choose to leave her first husband for him. She was not just a helpless victim.


Good grief. Have you no respect for the sensitivities of others? Do you enjoy undercutting their pleasure? What else could explain why you appear in yet another thread for the apparent purpose of denigrating whatever it is that others are enjoying?

People come on to this thread about Maria Callas to share their appreciation for the late, great artist, and several people have expressed compassion for the pain she experienced in her life. Is this what you consider a contribution to this conversation, or is it your purpose merely to pass judgment on a deceased person and to offend those who love her?

Do you attend funeral services and get up and remind those in attendance of the flaws of the deceased? Do you tell them that, mind you, James suffered a painful death, but he "was not just a helpless victim," he chose to smoke, so his lung cancer was his own stupid fault?

You need to understand that your comments in the context of this conversation are insensitive and may very well offend people. You are entitled to disrespect Maria Callas and the way she lived her life, but please show respect for people who are expressing their appreciation of her and don't force your negativity on them.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Have come to think whether we have given Maria too much benefit of doubt because we love and treasure her art so much. After all, notwithstanding her towering achievements as a great artist, a great musician and a great singer, she is still a human being, albeit a very complex one. DavidA is just stating a fact and possibly his intention is just as simple as that. It may be so painful an "inconvenient truth" that many devoted fans just wish to avoid it. Yet the fact remains laid out there and anyone writing a biography or a serious study of her life and career simply cannot avoid and evade it. In the end there is really no need at all to read too much into DavidA's post and over-interpret it. We will just have to accept that the facts are there. And frankly, the presence of these "inconvenient truths" about her life simply won't lessen any bit our appreciations and celebrations of her achievements.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

In a way I'm surprised that she lasted as long as she did. The way she was treated in the operatic world is quite distasteful. The booing, the bad press and how she was treated by some opera house managers must have taken quite a toll. Especially when she started having vocal problems. To think that you might not be able to do something that you love and have done since childhood is hard on anyone. But when it's your chosen profession it must be even harder. If she had been treated better things might have been different.

Onassis is quite a different subject. He did treat her badly and she really loved him. I read somewhere that Onassis realized that marrying Jackie was a mistake and he realized his mistake. There was some talk of them getting back together, but then Onassis fell ill. Maria said to someone that she couldn't even visit him at the hospital because of the press. And when he died that was pretty much it.

When Maria died Di Stefano came to see her, but Vasso Devetzi didn't let him. Quite a thing to do to someone who had known Maria for so long. Quite a character. Zeffirelli accused her of poisoning Callas. And some of the Callas estate also disappeared. I haven't read much about her so I don't know what to think of her. Afterwards is just so difficult to know what really happened and why.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

plumblossom said:


> Have come to think whether we have given Maria too much benefit of doubt because we love and treasure her art so much. After all, notwithstanding her towering achievements as a great artist, a great musician and a great singer, she is still a human being, albeit a very complex one. DavidA is just stating a fact and possibly his intention is just as simple as that. It may be so painful an "inconvenient truth" that many devoted fans just wish to avoid it. Yet the fact remains laid out there and anyone writing a biography or a serious study of her life and career simply cannot avoid and evade it. In the end there is really no need at all to read too much into DavidA's post and over-interpret it. We will just have to accept that the facts are there. And frankly, the presence of these "inconvenient truths" about her life simply won't lessen any bit our appreciations and celebrations of her achievements.


Well said, plumblossom! :tiphat:

Here's to a free and open exchange of ideas -- whether the topic is Suliotis or Puccini, Milanov or Mozart, Callas or Wagner.

A sentiment I imagine Maria Callas herself would have wholeheartedly endorsed!


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Mind you, she did choose to leave her first husband for him. She was not just a helpless victim.


The relationship with Meneghini was more affection and at the start financial security to help her career. With Onassis it was more love and genuine attraction. I don't think this as an "inconvenient truth". Divorces are not that rare. I think she just fell in love with the wrong person.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Diminuendo said:


> The relationship with Meneghini was more affection and at the start financial security to help her career. With Onassis it was more love and genuine attraction. I don't think this as an "inconvenient truth". Divorces are not that rare. I think she just fell in love with the wrong person.


YOUR interpretation of her motives in marrying Meneghini doesn't cast her in a good light, but how do you know if it's accurate? I think it's safer to SPECULATE that she fell for a father figure and later grew out of the relationship.

We all know it's a FACT she left him, not least because he confirmed it. Can we now move on?


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Belowpar said:


> We all know it's a FACT she left him, not least because he confirmed it. Can we now move on?


Thank you Belowpar  And yes, we should move on.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Balthazar said:


> Well said, plumblossom! :tiphat:
> 
> Here's to a free and open exchange of ideas -- whether the topic is Suliotis or Puccini, Milanov or Mozart, Callas or Wagner.
> 
> A sentiment I imagine Maria Callas herself would have wholeheartedly endorsed!


Thank you Balthazar :tiphat: And time to move on. About Callas and Milanov, there is a lot that can be discussed about each's contribution to our understanding of the role of La Gioconda. Callas and Mozart is another topic that merits attention.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Belowpar said:


> YOUR interpretation of her motives in marrying Meneghini doesn't cast her in a good light, but how do you know if it's accurate? I think it's safer to SPECULATE that she fell for a father figure and later grew out of the relationship.
> 
> We all know it's a FACT she left him, not least because he confirmed it. Can we now move on?


Of course it's just my interpretation. I thought that this thread might be more of her as an artist, but since someone wrote on the subject I decided to give my view on it. I've always been more interested in her artistic merits, but her personal life has always fascinated people. But to get to another subject 

What role do you think was most complete the first time she sang it? La Traviata for instance was an opera that she refined throughout her career, but some where pretty much there the first time around.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Diminuendo said:


> Of course it's just my interpretation. I thought that this thread might be more of her as an artist, but since someone wrote on the subject I decided to give my view on it. I've always been more interested in her artistic merits, but her personal life has always fascinated people. But to get to another subject
> 
> What role do you think was most complete the first time she sang it? La Traviata for instance was an opera that she refined throughout her career, but some where pretty much there the first time around.


And not to forget he roles that she sang on stage for the first and only time. For me the most memorable of these are:

Armida
Lady M
Alceste
Amelia in Un Ballo in Maschera


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> Well said, plumblossom! :tiphat:
> 
> Here's to a free and open exchange of ideas -- whether the topic is Suliotis or Puccini, Milanov or Mozart, Callas or Wagner.
> 
> A sentiment I imagine Maria Callas herself would have wholeheartedly endorsed!


One of the ideas that may be "freely and openly" expressed, though clearly some people can't wrap their minds around it, is that blaming people for their own pain in a context where others are expressing compassion is offensive. If you wouldn't walk into a roomful of people and do that in person, don't walk into a forum like this and do it. There is a time and a place and a proper way to say things, but some sensitivity is required to see that.

There are people on this forum who make a habit of barging into discussions and saying negative things for effect, perhaps because they just can't help themselves. "Reminding" people who are expressing compassion for Callas that, "mind you," she brought it on herself, is a perfect example. It's quite likely that most here are aware that she left her first husband and that her liaison with Onassis was voluntary. So what? Should we feel less sorry for what she endured in her last years? If that is not the implication, what is?

By the way, your attempt to enlist Callas's "endorsement" of your "sentiments" is highly presumptuous. You haven't the foggiest idea what she would endorse.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Has anyone noticed how a new sexiness enters her voice in the 1961 French recital? This is shortly after her affair with Onassis started, the first time, I am sure, she had ever truly been in love, and probably the first time she had experienced real passion in the bedroom. I honestly don't think this is pure fancy, nor do I think it is disrespectful to mention it.

When she married Meneghini she was fat and frumpy, and penniless. He was more of a father figure to her (he was certainly old enough) and he represented security. She would not be the first woman to marry for such reasons. I'm sure she loved him when she married him, or at least convinced herself that she did, but I doubt there was any real passion in their relationship. When she lost all the weight and started mixing in different circles, for the first time in her life she started to feel like a desirable woman. Is it so surprising she should have her head turned by this charismatic man who showed her such attention? She was still a young woman, only 34 when they met. Meneghini was 61, and, if anything, he looked older. It is very likely that their marriage had been a pretty sexless one (Legge reports visiting them in their hotel bedroom once to find them both already in bed, wearing vests under their pyjamas). Meneghini was not entirely blameless in the break up of their marriage either. Many contemporary reports attest to the fact that he often fueled the disputes with opera house managements, his eye always on the money. Callas herself apparently started to lose trust in him and his handling of her finances before her affair with Onassis.

I realise of course that much of this is pure conjecture, but I hear a passion and sexiness in the arias from *Carmen* and *Samson et Dalila* on the first French recital, that I had never heard in her voice before. Indeed her Dalila is one of the sexiest you will hear, free of all those matronly contralto associations you hear in the singing of so many mezzos. She may, as Legge points out, have had difficulty maintaining the low tessitiura in the theatre. In the studio, she is superb.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Mind you, she did choose to leave her first husband for him. She was not just a helpless victim.


Rather an old fashioned view. Marriages fall apart for all sorts of reasons. It is rare that blame, if in fact blame is the right word, can be apportioned to just one party.

Incidentally, Callas was not Catholic. She was Greek Orthadox. Unlike Catholocism, Orhodoxy allows divorce and re-marriage in church. In Greece, marriage is, or was at that time, only legal if it has taken place in a Greek Orthodox church. She never actually divorced Meneghini. She simply gave up her American citizenship and reclaimed her Greek citizenship. This meant that her marriage to Meneghini was no longer valid.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> Has anyone noticed how a new sexiness enters her voice in the 1961 French recital? This is shortly after her affair with Onassis started, the first time, I am sure, she had ever truly been in love, and probably the first time she had experienced real passion in the bedroom. I honestly don't think this is pure fancy, nor do I think it is disrespectful to mention it.
> 
> When she married Meneghini she was fat and frumpy, and penniless. He was more of a father figure to her (he was certainly old enough) and he represented security. She would not be the first woman to marry for such reasons. I'm sure she loved him when she married him, or at least convinced herself that she did, but I doubt there was any real passion in their relationship. When she lost all the weight and started mixing in different circles, for the first time in her life she started to feel like a desirable woman. Is it so surprising she should have her head turned by this charismatic man who showed her such attention? She was still a young woman, only 34 when they met. Meneghini was 61, and, if anything, he looked older. It is very likely that their marriage had been a pretty sexless one (Legge reports visiting them in their hotel bedroom once to find them both already in bed, wearing vests under their pyjamas). Meneghini was not entirely blameless in the break up of their marriage either. Many contemporary reports attest to the fact that he often fueled the disputes with opera house managements, his eye always on the money. Callas herself apparently started to lose trust in him and his handling of her finances before her affair with Onassis.
> 
> I realise of course that much of this is pure conjecture, but I hear a passion and sexiness in the arias from *Carmen* and *Samson et Dalila* on the first French recital, that I had never heard in her voice before. Indeed her Dalila is one of the sexiest you will hear, free of all those matronly contralto associations you hear in the singing of so many mezzos. She may, as Legge points out, have had difficulty maintaining the low tessitiura in the theatre. In the studio, she is superb.


According to at least one Biographer Meneghini was 'successful' with and liked "Rubenesque" women and never discouraged her eating. It is pure speculation to say there was never any passion. Also she was known for being close to a penny and somewhat difficult to predict, so it's a bit hard on him to put the blame on the disputes on his shoulders. A few posts ago RES suggested she was motivated in the most famous disputes to hide the fact she was no longer in full control of her voice. I will however listen to the 1961 recital closely. We have to admit that we will never know what really went on between them.

It is fun to speculate as long as we admit that's all we are doing (as you did Greg).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Belowpar said:


> According to at least one Biographer Meneghini was 'successful' with and liked "Rubenesque" women and never discouraged her eating. It is pure speculation to say there was never any passion. Also she was known for being close to a penny and somewhat difficult to predict, so it's a bit hard on him to put the blame on the disputes on his shoulders. A few posts ago RES suggested she was motivated in the most famous disputes to hide the fact she was no longer in full control of her voice. I will however listen to the 1961 recital closely. We have to admit that we will never know what really went on between them.
> 
> It is fun to speculate as long as we admit that's all we are doing (as you did Greg).


But I wasn't putting _all_ the blame, if blame is the right word, on Meneghini's shoulders, which is why it wouldn't really be right to paint him as a victim, however much he wanted the world to see him that way. It takes two to make a marriage, and two to break it up.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> But I wasn't putting _all_ the blame, if blame is the right word, on Meneghini's shoulders, which is why it wouldn't really be right to paint him as a victim, however much he wanted the world to see it in that way. It takes two to make a marriage, and two to beak it up.


Agree it takes two.

My final word. ))

Meneghini doesn't seem to get a lot of love from Callas fans,but

a the story wouldn't be the same without him.
b he was very important to her as a person (not just financially) as she struggled for recognition. 
c He was a big help in her early professional career and this tends to be forgotten.

Callas downplayed this later and many fans seem to go with the revised version.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Belowpar said:


> Agree it takes two.
> 
> a the story wouldn't be the same without him.
> b he was very important to her as a person (not just financially) as she struggled for recognition.
> c He was a big help in her early professional career and this tends to be forgotten.


Undoubtedly true. If Serafin was her artistic mentor, it was Meneghini who gave her both the financial security and emotional stability she needed at that time in her career.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> *Has anyone noticed how a new sexiness enters her voice in the 1961 French recital? *This is shortly after her affair with Onassis started, the first time, I am sure, she had ever truly been in love, and probably the first time she had experienced real passion in the bedroom. I honestly don't think this is pure fancy, nor do I think it is disrespectful to mention it.
> 
> When she married Meneghini she was fat and frumpy, and penniless. He was more of a father figure to her (he was certainly old enough) and he represented security. She would not be the first woman to marry for such reasons. I'm sure she loved him when she married him, or at least convinced herself that she did, but I doubt there was any real passion in their relationship. When she lost all the weight and started mixing in different circles, for the first time in her life she started to feel like a desirable woman. Is it so surprising she should have her head turned by this charismatic man who showed her such attention? She was still a young woman, only 34 when they met. Meneghini was 61, and, if anything, he looked older. It is very likely that their marriage had been a pretty sexless one (Legge reports visiting them in their hotel bedroom once to find them both already in bed, wearing vests under their pyjamas). Meneghini was not entirely blameless in the break up of their marriage either. Many contemporary reports attest to the fact that he often fueled the disputes with opera house managements, his eye always on the money. Callas herself apparently started to lose trust in him and his handling of her finances before her affair with Onassis.
> 
> I realise of course that much of this is pure conjecture, but I hear a passion and sexiness in the arias from *Carmen* and *Samson et Dalila* on the first French recital, that I had never heard in her voice before. Indeed her Dalila is one of the sexiest you will hear, free of all those matronly contralto associations you hear in the singing of so many mezzos. She may, as Legge points out, have had difficulty maintaining the low tessitiura in the theatre. In the studio, she is superb.


I think so.

Her "_Mon coeur s'ouvre a ta voix_" from _Samson et Dalila_ from that recital just 'exudes' sexy _femme fatale_- and is consequently my favorite cut on the disc.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> *There are people on this forum who make a habit of barging into discussions and saying negative things for effect, perhaps because they just can't help themselves.*


_*"Amen to that!!!"*_​


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

If the Tartuffian outrage has run its course in attempting to derail this thread, I would be interested to know if anyone has a view on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Callas biography by Arianna Huffington _née_ Stassinopoulos.

I picked this up recently and am looking forward to reading it soon… :tiphat:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Balthazar said:


> If the Tartuffian outrage has run its course in attempting to derail this thread, I would be interested to know if anyone has a view on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Callas biography by Arianna Huffington _née_ Stassinopoulos.
> 
> I picked this up recently and am looking forward to reading it soon… :tiphat:


It's a bit tabloid, and, like so many of Callas's biographers, Stassinopoulos clearly knows very little about music. It's a very long time since I read it, but I seem to remember there were quite a few inaccuracies in it too. It's ok if you take it with a pinch of salt.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> It's a bit tabloid, and, like so many of Callas's biographers, Stassinopoulos clearly knows very little about music. It's a very long time since I read it, but I seem to remember there were quite a few inaccuracies in it too. It's ok if you take it with a pinch of salt.


Thanks, Greg. I'll bear that in mind. :tiphat:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> It's a bit tabloid, and, like so many of Callas's biographers, Stassinopoulos clearly knows very little about music. It's a very long time since I read it, but I seem to remember there were quite a few inaccuracies in it too. It's ok if you take it with a pinch of salt.


"For Callas collectors only." Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

But for a serious canvassing and clarifying of the woman and her art, I always incline to Ardoin and Fitzgerald's _Callas: the Art and the Life_:


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> "For Callas collectors only." Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.
> 
> But for a serious canvassing and clarifying of the woman and her art, I always incline to Ardoin and Fitzgerald's Callas: the Art and the Life:


The first, and arguably best, of the coffee table books. First published in 1974, 3 years before she died, and before that final, sad concert tour with Di Stefano.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> The first, and arguably best, of the coffee table books. First published in 1974, 3 years before she died, and before that final, sad concert tour with Di Stefano.


The book has pride of place on the top shelf of my biggest bookshelf right behind me in the computer room of my house.

Its a big coffee table book that belongs on one- but I like it better near me. _;D_


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> "For Callas collectors only." Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.
> 
> But for a serious canvassing and clarifying of the woman and her art, I always incline to *Ardoin* and *Fitzgerald's Callas: the Art and the Life*


Hoorah to your selection of books: exactly the ones I also treasure!


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

The writer John Ardoin recalled that he once said to Callas "It must be a very enviable thing to be Maria Callas." And Callas responded, "*No, it's a very terrible thing to be Maria Callas, because it's a question of trying to understand something you can never really understand.*"

I am not sure about the exact context of this very interesting and revealing conversation. It probably took place sometime in the late 1960s or early 1970s. Perhaps deep in the recess of her mind she was craving for a quiet, peaceful, normal life.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

plumblossom said:


> The writer John Ardoin recalled that he once said to Callas "It must be a very enviable thing to be Maria Callas." And Callas responded, "*No, it's a very terrible thing to be Maria Callas, because it's a question of trying to understand something you can never really understand.*"
> 
> I am not sure about the exact context of this very interesting and revealing conversation. It probably took place sometime in the late 1960s or early 1970s. Perhaps deep in the recess of her mind she was craving for a quiet, peaceful, normal life.












Living up to the standard of a goddess or a god is an impossibly high standard to be met.

Even JC lost his temper on occasion, so I can hardly blame MC.


----------



## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Its in her eyes here. This clip always mesmerizes me. Among other things...


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

And in this one.






I love the way her whole expression changes on the single word "ma".


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## Techer (Sep 8, 2015)

I just found a radio program that gave an extensive presentation on the career of Maria Callas. The link is below:

http://www.onandofftherecord.com/tag/maria-callas/

There are probably not that many new materials. But it is quite fascinating to listen through the four hour program, with all the live recordings and interviews.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Techer said:


> I just found a radio program that gave an extensive presentation on the career of Maria Callas. The link is below:
> 
> http://www.onandofftherecord.com/tag/maria-callas/
> 
> There are probably not that many new materials. But it is quite fascinating to listen through the four hour program, with all the live recordings and interviews.


A pretty good program. Longtime fans probably know everything all ready. But great for those with limited knowledge. There is also programs on Gobbi and Di Stefano.


----------



## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Techer said:


> I just found a radio program that gave an extensive presentation on the career of Maria Callas. The link is below:
> 
> http://www.onandofftherecord.com/tag/maria-callas/
> 
> There are probably not that many new materials. But it is quite fascinating to listen through the four hour program, with all the live recordings and interviews.


And welcome to the forum  There can never be too many Callas fans around.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

plumblossom said:


> The writer John Ardoin recalled that he once said to Callas "It must be a very enviable thing to be Maria Callas." And Callas responded, "*No, it's a very terrible thing to be Maria Callas, because it's a question of trying to understand something you can never really understand.*"
> 
> I am not sure about the exact context of this very interesting and revealing conversation. It probably took place sometime in the late 1960s or early 1970s. Perhaps deep in the recess of her mind she was craving for a quiet, peaceful, normal life.


This is certainly true of certain stage people, particularly versatile actors, because they play so many parts they never really understand who they actually are. They understand the parts they are playing but not themselves. It's nothing to do with being divine - just all too human in real life!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> This is certainly true of certain stage people, particularly versatile actors, because they play so many parts they never really understand who they actually are. They understand the parts they are playing but not themselves. It's nothing to do with being divine - just all too human in real life!


I wonder if you realise what a patronising statement that is. Not surprising from someone who constantly tries to relegate great artists to the rank of mere entertainers. Or are you deliberately misunderstanding what Callas meant?


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## Techer (Sep 8, 2015)

Diminuendo said:


> And welcome to the forum  There can never be too many Callas fans around.


Thanks. It is my first post, but I have been listening to Maria Callas on and off for quite some time. However, for the last two months, I have been playing the latest Warner remastered Callas collection every day, and it has been a revelation. Indeed, once you become familiar with her voice and art, other singer's performance tends to lose "focus" and become so much "shallower". (Even Ponselle's 1935 La Traviata pales in comparison with her Lisbon La Traviata.) The only two exceptions would perhaps be the great Janet Baker and Flagstad, at least to me.

It is a shame that as her arts deepen and mature, her voice started to betray her. Just compare the staged Act II of Tosca in Paris versus the one she did in 1964 in Covent Garden. The latter one brought so much passion and depth, it almost felt like a life lived instead of an act performed.

She is indeed as Streep said, "in tune with something divine." There is something in her that defies word and description. We are lucky to have recordings of her famous performances, 1955 Berlin Lucia, Sonnambula, Norma, and La Traviata. But what would I not give to have a time machine and see her in those famous productions.


----------



## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

plumblossom said:


> "*No, it's a very terrible thing to be Maria Callas, because it's a question of trying to understand something you can never really understand.*"





DavidA said:


> This is certainly true of certain stage people, particularly versatile actors, because they play so many parts they never really understand who they actually are. They understand the parts they are playing but not themselves. It's nothing to do with being divine - just all too human in real life!





GregMitchell said:


> I wonder if you realise what a patronising statement that is. Not surprising from someone who constantly tries to relegate great artists to the rank of mere entertainers. Or *are you deliberately misunderstanding what Callas meant?*


Greg, could you explain what you understand that Callas meant?


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

DavidA said:


> This is certainly true of certain stage people, particularly versatile actors, because they play so many parts they never really understand who they actually are. They understand the parts they are playing but not themselves. It's nothing to do with being divine - just all too human in real life!


Just to seek some clarifications from you (and nothing more than that). Do the "certain stage people" you referred to include figures such as John Gielgud and Laurence Olivier? In the same vein, do you see Enrico Caruso and Feodor Chaliapin as merely "certain opera singers"?


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I wonder if you realise what a patronising statement that is. Not surprising from someone who constantly tries to relegate great artists to *the rank of mere entertainers*. Or are you deliberately misunderstanding what Callas meant?


Some of the greatest entertainers I've seen have been religious charlatans- but that's about as far from _Medea_ and _Valhalla _as one can get.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> This is certainly true of certain stage people, particularly versatile actors, because they play so many parts they never really understand who they actually are.They understand the parts they are playing but not themselves. It's nothing to do with being divine- just all too human in real life!












I wouldn't say its any truer of thespians than of humans in general.

Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, and Shakespeare certainly have a lot to say about how we all have multiple personae.

So as you said above, "It has nothing to do with being divine."

I think the real rub in this is that some people can't accept that their Savior is a composite fairy tale and that Maria Callas 'is' the Divine Incarnation made flesh. _;D_


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> I wonder if you realise what a patronising statement that is. Not surprising from someone who constantly tries to relegate great artists to the rank of mere entertainers. Or are you deliberately misunderstanding what Callas meant?


What did she mean then Greg? From what I've read of her she was a pretty unhappy and mixed up woman off the stage. Because someone is a great artist does not mean they were not all too human off the stage. 
I mean, Heifetz was the greatest violinist of his generation - possibly of all time - but his artistry didn't stop him being a less than successful man,a misanthrope, if you read about his private life. Andre Previn has said that he could never reconcile the Heifetz on the stage who could bring tears to your eyes with a phrase of Brahms' violin concerto with the misanthrope he was off the stage. Now none of this distracts from Heifetz's art imo when I hear his violin come out my speakers. 
In saying Callas was all too human off the stage - she had less than successful relationships for example, which apparently left her devastated - is not denigrating her art whatsoever. Her private life could have been a tragic opera in some places. According to RES Callas may have hooked up with Onassis to retreat from her own vocal problems. In 1968, Callas was left utterly devastated when Onassis abruptly cast her aside to marry Jacqueline Kennedy. It was a blow from which she never recovered. Maria retreated to her apartment in Paris, apparently losing interest in life. Nobody could have described this dark period better than Maria herself when she said "First I lost my voice, then I lost my figure and then I lost Onassis". In 1974, she eventually emerged from her private and professional hibernation to embark on a world tour with the tenor Giuseppe di Stefano. While commercially successful, the performances were slated by the critics as she had indeed lost her voice by then. As someone said: "The great La Callas had fallen on her sword." She would never sing in public again and tragically died young and alone. 
Now all this does not undo what a great artist Callas was. Just some of us distinguish between her the stage and real life. Callas was not a myth - she was a real person of flesh and blood like the rest of us. Just she had a vast amount of talent.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> What did she mean then Greg? From what I've read of her she was a pretty unhappy and mixed up woman off the stage. *Because someone is a great artist does not mean they were not all too human off the stage. *I mean, Heifetz was the greatest violinist of his generation - possibly of all time - but his artistry didn't stop him being a less than successful man,a misanthrope, if you read about his private life. Andre Previn has said that he could never reconcile the Heifetz on the stage who could bring tears to your eyes with a phrase of Brahms' violin concerto with the misanthrope he was off the stage . In saying Callas was all too human off the stage is not denigrating her art whatsoever, Just some of us distinguish between her art and the person she was.


Jupiter hurled thunderbolts, Jesus cursed fig trees, Divina demanded professionalism of her colleagues.

What's the big deal?

Gods will be gods, but of course goddesses are a few notches above them in propriety.

Jupiter and Jesus had their priorities- Divina had Hers.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I wouldn't say its any truer of thespians than of humans in general.
> 
> Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, and Shakespeare certainly have a lot to say about how we all have multiple personae.
> 
> ...


I think you are the one who believes in fairy tales! :lol:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I think you are the one who believes in fairy tales! :lol:


I keep my library well organized: the Good Book is right next to _Muggles Book of Magic _and _The Dark Knight_- so I 'think' I'm safe.

_;D_


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I keep my library well organized: the Good Book is right next to _Muggles Book of Magic _and _The Dark Night_- so I 'think' I'm safe.
> 
> _;D_


Sorry, I don't want to get into childish quips.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Sorry, I don't want to get into childish quips.


Then there's certain fables you should avoid.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

plumblossom said:


> Just to seek some clarifications from you (and nothing more than that). Do the "certain stage people" you referred to include figures such as John Gielgud and Laurence Olivier? In the same vein, do you see Enrico Caruso and Feodor Chaliapin as merely "certain opera singers"?


I'm not making generalisations as I don't know about people. My wife who has studied (and qualified) in psychology would say it is a certain personality type which gives them the ability to be a chameleon on stage but then not to quite know who they are off it. This certainly comes out in Ziegler's biography of Olivier. I wonder if Callas was the same sort of personality type.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

What does it mean to say that people "don't know who they are"? And how are we to judge how well people know who they are? Do _we_ know who they are, thus being qualified to say whether _they_ know? Hell, do any of us know who we are? There is more to every person than they, and certainly we, can ever see, understand, or judge. Moreover, people change. If they knew who they were yesterday, do they still know who they are today? Perhaps we are all constantly discovering who we are. Does that process end at some point?

I find the whole game of analyzing the personalities and characters of famous people interesting only to a point. Beyond that point, wherever it is, the game becomes presumptuous and we become transgressors. The inner lives of people are, and should be respected as, mysteries which must ever defy our understanding.

Maria Callas is to me what she appears to be - an artist of a magnitude rarely seen on earth. I am content with that. The life behind the artist - not an easy life, by all accounts - was hers to live as best she could, and what we think we know of it is interesting. She seems to have understood quite a lot about herself. But she could never comprehend her own genius. Some things are just incomprehensible. And we must be content with that, and simply be grateful.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> What does it mean to say that people "don't know who they are"? And how are we to judge how well people know who they are? Do _we_ know who they are, thus being qualified to say whether _they_ know? Hell, do any of us know who we are? There is more to every person than they, and certainly we, can ever see, understand, or judge. Moreover, people change. If they knew who they were yesterday, do they still know who they are today? Perhaps we are all constantly discovering who we are. Does that process end at some point?
> 
> I find the whole game of analyzing the personalities and characters of famous people interesting only to a point. Beyond that point, wherever it is, the game becomes presumptuous and we become transgressors. The inner lives of people are, and should be respected as, mysteries which must ever defy our understanding.
> 
> Maria Callas is to me what she appears to be - an artist of a magnitude rarely seen on earth. I am content with that. The life behind the artist - not an easy life, by all accounts - was hers to live as best she could, and what we think we know of it is interesting. She seems to have understood quite a lot about herself. But she could never comprehend her own genius. Some things are just incomprehensible. And we must be content with that, and simply be grateful.


And here, yet again, I leave it to Woodduck to express my own personal thoughts.

When Callas said it was a terrible thing to be Callas, she was no doubt referring to the pressure of performing, the pressure to always be better than she was the night before, the pressure to fulfill the expectations of her admirers, to silence the voice of her detractors, and, perhaps most of all, to do justice and honour to the composers she was performing. By the late 1950s, the media followed her around like a Hollywood star. We forget today just how famous she was, and all without ever singing a note of popular music. When her voice began to let her down, the spectre of her fame was almost too much to bear. I can imagine that, by that time, it would indeed be a terrible thing, a burden, to be Maria Callas. No wonder that a part of her craved a normal life, a life out of the spotlight.

I can do no better than quote Tito Gobbi.

_Probably millions of words have been written about La Callas, and quite a few about the vulnerable, lonely, elusive creature who was Maria. There is little I can add. She shone for all too brief a while in the world of opera, like a vivid flame attracting the attention of the whole world, and she had a strange magic which was all her own. I always thought she was immortal - and she is._


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Deleted, felt later an afterthought that post is pretty redundant.


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## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I wouldn't say its any truer of thespians than of humans in general.
> 
> Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, and Shakespeare certainly have a lot to say about how we all have multiple personae.
> 
> ...





Marschallin Blair said:


> Jupiter hurled thunderbolts, Jesus cursed fig trees, Divina demanded professionalism of her colleagues.
> 
> What's the big deal?
> 
> ...





Marschallin Blair said:


> I keep my library well organized: the Good Book is right next to _Muggles Book of Magic _and _The Dark Knight_- so I 'think' I'm safe.
> 
> _;D_


I'm sorry but I really need to ask you why you think it's okay to use this as an opportunity to insult other people by mocking their beliefs? As a Christian myself I find some of your posts really offensive. If you don't believe in something that's fine, I just don't think that gives you the right to make fun of people's faith. Just to remind you that this thread is about Callas and not Jesus, yet you insist in bringing him up into this.

It's very hypocritical that, had someone taken a shot at Callas on an unrelated thread, they would instantly have come under fire by the same people who condone this kind of behaviour.


----------



## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Camillorf said:


> I'm sorry but I really need to ask you why you think it's okay to use this as an opportunity to insult other people by mocking their beliefs? As a Christian myself I find some of your posts really offensive. If you don't believe in something that's fine, I just don't think that gives you the right to make fun of people's faith. Just to remind you that this thread is about Callas and not Jesus, yet you insist in bringing him up into this.
> 
> It's very hypocritical that, had someone taken a shot at Callas on an unrelated thread, they would instantly have come under fire by the same people who condone this kind of behaviour.


Nobodys insulting anyone here. I hope  I for one missed MB's enthusiasm. I'm sure that nobody wants to insult people or their beliefs. I thought that MB's posts were humorous, but maybe that's just me  I always try not to conciously offend, but sometimes it happens. I want to apologize if someone got offended in this awe-inspiring thread. Remember, taking things too seriously is hazardous for your health


----------



## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

Diminuendo said:


> Nobodys insulting anyone here. I hope  I for one missed MB's enthusiasm. I'm sure that nobody wants to insult people or their beliefs. I thought that MB's posts were humorous, but maybe that's just me  I always try not to conciously offend, but sometimes it happens. I want to apologize if someone got offended in this awe-inspiring thread. Remember, taking things too seriously is hazardous for your health


No need to apologise, Dim. My post wasn't actually directed at you.

I think you will find that most christians would find the posts I quoted offensive because our belief means a lot to us. But if you see it simply as harmless fun, then fine. I will continue watching this thread and try to ignore such posts. I just hope that you and others who agree with you remember to keep up this wonderful sense of humour when others make negative remarks about artists that mean a lot to you.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Camillorf said:


> I'm sorry but I really need to ask you why you think it's okay to use this as an opportunity to insult other people by mocking their beliefs? As a Christian myself I find some of your posts really offensive. If you don't believe in something that's fine, I just don't think that gives you the right to make fun of people's faith. Just to remind you that this thread is about Callas and not Jesus, yet you insist in bringing him up into this.
> 
> It's very hypocritical that, had someone taken a shot at Callas on an unrelated thread, they would instantly have come under fire by the same people who condone this kind of behaviour.












Camillorf, I'm of course flattered that you quote me _in extenso_- but I do wish you would have contextualized my posts- and showed what they were in _RESPONSE 'TO'_: a constant denigration of Callas by a TC member who is upset that some of Us regard her as great an artist as Leonardo or Michaelangelo.

I do not have a problem with anyone's spiritual and religious beliefs- I really and sincerely don't.

But if my values are under fire, then on the Medea make-up goes. _;D_

- and 'he' can see how cute 'I' can be.

Apparently Wagner-baiting isn't enough.


----------



## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Camillorf, I'm of course flattered that you quote me _in extenso_- but I do wish you would have contextualized my posts- and showed what they were in _RESPONSE 'TO'_: *a constant denigration of Callas by a TC member who is upset that some of Us regard her as great an artist as Leonardo or Michaelangelo*.


And how exactly does that justify you attacking other people's beliefs?



> I do not have a problem with anyone's spiritual and religious beliefs- I really and sincerely don't.
> 
> But if my values are under fire, then on the Medea make-up goes. _;D_
> 
> ...


 I think you have every right to defend your values. I too think Callas was a great artist but I still fail to see how the posts I quoted help you support that view, and don't simply try to ridicule people for believing in the Bible. The fact that you say it's in response to DavidA's posts does not, in my opinion, make them any less inappropriate.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Camillorf said:


> No need to apologise, Dim. My post wasn't actually directed at you.
> 
> I think you will find that most christians would find the posts I quoted offensive because our belief means a lot to us. But if you see it simply as harmless fun, then fine. I will continue watching this thread and try to ignore such posts. I just hope that you and others who agree with you remember to keep up this wonderful sense of humour when others make negative remarks about artists that mean a lot to you.


As I've said I don't want to get into the realm of cheap shots. The fact is that no-one is making negative comments about Callas the artist. As an artist I admire her in the same way as I admire Olivier and other great thespians. But some people cannot appear to grasp the point that Callas was a real person of flesh and blood not a myth that appeared on the stage or on recordings. This person of great interest to the historian. In examining Callas' life and personality we are partially trying to uncover what it was about her that made her art great. What is the puzzle behind people of great talent? Just what drove them? To me to uncover that this great artist was a fallible human being rather than a mythical creature leads me to admire their artistic gift more. Sorry some people don't see it that way!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Camillorf said:


> And how exactly does that justify you attacking other people's beliefs?
> 
> I think you have every right to defend your values. I too think Callas was a great artist but I still fail to see how the posts I quoted help you support that view, and don't simply try to ridicule people for believing in the Bible. The fact that you say it's in response to DavidA's posts does not, in my opinion, make them any less inappropriate.


First of all, Honey- I love the pre-emptive tone of moral indignation, but I'm not the one on trial here- 'trolling' is.

If DavidA didn't constantly ridicule Callas in RELIGIOUS terms, then religion from my end wouldn't have come to the table to begin with in responding to what HE brought up.

Don't identify symptoms as causes. . . or even tell me what to do, for that matter.


----------



## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Camillorf said:


> No need to apologise, Dim. My post wasn't actually directed at you.
> 
> I think you will find that most christians would find the posts I quoted offensive because our belief means a lot to us. But if you see it simply as harmless fun, then fine. I will continue watching this thread and try to ignore such posts. I just hope that you and others who agree with you remember to keep up this wonderful sense of humour when others make negative remarks about artists that mean a lot to you.


Oh I know I wasn't the target. I always try to retain my sense of humor, but sometimes I have to admit it's hard. What I mostly meant on my post is that we are all here for the same thing, I hope. To discuss our appreciation of La Divina. Since every poster should like her, it's difficult to understand how did it evolve in to this.

Anyway I really love Callas as Tosca. The 1953 recording is really one of my favorite recordings. We all know that she didn't like the role, but you would never know it if she hadn't said it. That really is something. A lesser artist would have probably just not sung the role, but she did.

And have you watched the Callas conversations from YouTube? The volume one part two where she discusses some of her roles is pretty interesting. You usually see snippets from the first part in documentaries.






And I really love this French tv interview. Such a classy program. Miles apart from other Callas interviews. You don't see this kind of thing anymore. And I mean not just the smoking


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I think Callas' 'whole world' collapsed.
> 
> Can you imagine knowing that your physical powers are on the wane- and that the love of your life just cavalierly abandoned you?
> 
> I can't even 'dream' how she must have felt.


I just saw it Marschallin

yes I can understand how she felt, knowing that she was totally surrendered in her deep love for Onassis

and you know something?

Most probably Onassis "used" her, as it is somehow known that his only love was
his first wife Tina


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Rather an old fashioned view. Marriages fall apart for all sorts of reasons. It is rare that blame, if in fact blame is the right word, can be apportioned to just one party.
> 
> Incidentally, Callas was not Catholic. She was Greek Orthadox. Unlike Catholocism, Orhodoxy allows divorce and re-marriage in church. In Greece, marriage is, or was at that time, only legal if it has taken place in a Greek Orthodox church. She never actually divorced Meneghini. She simply gave up her American citizenship and reclaimed her Greek citizenship. This meant that her marriage to Meneghini was no longer valid.


I am surprised of how many details you and some other people here know about Maria

yes, what you say is perfectly right


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

clara s said:


> I am surprised of how many details you and some other people here know about Maria
> 
> yes, what you say is perfectly right


I'm half Greek myself. Maybe that explains it.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

clara s said:


> I am surprised of how many details you and some other people here know about Maria
> 
> yes, what you say is perfectly right


Greg Mitchell's the Maria polymath- I'm neither shocked nor amazed that he knew this. _;D_


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm half Greek myself. Maybe that explains it.


'Oh.'

So you're 'closer to her' than I am because of your Greek provenance.

_;D_


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> 'Oh.'
> 
> So you're 'closer to her' than I am because of your Greek provenance.
> 
> _;D_


I would say so, yes


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I would say so, yes


Such pride.

Ionian Greek courses through your veins.

- I salute you.


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm half Greek myself. Maybe that explains it.


yes that specially explains your knowledge of greek-orthodox marriage procedures


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

clara s said:


> I am surprised of how many details you and some other people here know about Maria
> 
> yes, what you say is perfectly right


Well when your crazy enough you gather quite a lot information. There is actually a video on a documentary on Callas where Callas explains the thing to a reporter. And the reporter of course asks if she is now going to marry Onassis.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Does anyone know whether Callas sang any roles from Verdi's two last operas?

Ie Desdemona, Alice Ford? Or even Nannetta?


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Does anyone know whether Callas sang any roles from Verdi's two last operas?
> 
> Ie Desdemona, Alice Ford? Or even Nannetta?


No, I know she didn't sing any of those onstage, though I do believe there's a recording by her of part or all of Desdemona's scene from the last act.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Yes, there are three arias from Act IV on the album Callas Sings Verdi Arias: Aroldo - Don Carlo - Otello. Nicola Rescigno accompanies with the Paris Conservatoire.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Does anyone know whether Callas sang any roles from Verdi's two last operas?
> 
> Ie Desdemona, Alice Ford? Or even Nannetta?


The Willow Song and Ave Maria from *Otello* is arguably the most successful item on the second Verdi disc. Its technical demands are relatively slight, and though her tone is threadbare and thin, we at least don't get any of those flaps on wobble on high which by now had become inevitable with loud notes above the stave. Furthermore her singing of the Willow Song is absolutely haunting, and her legato, as usual, impeccable in the Ave Maria. Emilia's lines are unfortunately omitted.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> The Willow Song and Ave Maria from *Otello* is arguably the most successful item on the second Verdi disc. Its technical demands are relatively slight, and though her tone is threadbare and thin, we at least don't get any of those flaps on wobble on high which by now had become inevitable with loud notes above the stave. Furthermore her singing of the Willow Song is absolutely haunting, and her legato, as usual, impeccable in the Ave Maria. Emilia's lines are unfortunately omitted.


Did she ever sing it on stage?


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Did she ever sing it on stage?


No, Callas never sang Desdemona on stage. Desdemona was Tebaldi's calling card from 1945 onwards and throughout the 1950s and early 1960s. Probably out of respect for Tebaldi, Callas never included Desdemona in her stage repertoire. Another possible reason might be that the role didn't offer much opportunities for her to showcase her musical and dramatic gifts.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

plumblossom said:


> No, Callas never sang Desdemona on stage. Desdemona was Tebaldi's calling card from 1945 onwards and throughout the 1950s and early 1960s. Probably out of respect for Tebaldi, Callas never included Desdemona in her stage repertoire. Another possible reason might be that the role didn't offer much opportunities for her to showcase her musical and dramatic gifts.


I think the latter reason more likely. Desdemona comes third to Otello and Iago really in terms of interest. Technically the role holds few of the demands of many other Verdi soprano roles , and dramatically Desdemona can hardly compete with say Violetta, Lady Macbeth or even Gilda. She remains the sweet, wronged wife from beginning to end. That there can be a little more dramatic meat to the role was proved by Scotto, who remains my favourite Desdemona for all that the role is more beautifully sung by the likes of Tebaldi, Te Kanawa and Fleming.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I think the latter reason more likely. Desdemona comes third to Otello and Iago really in terms of interest. Technically the role holds few of the demands of many other Verdi soprano roles , and dramatically Desdemona can hardly compete with say Violetta, Lady Macbeth or even Gilda. She remains the sweet, wronged wife from beginning to end. That there can be a little more dramatic meat to the role was proved by Scotto, who remains my favourite Desdemona for all that the role is more beautifully sung by the likes of Tebaldi, Te Kanawa and Fleming.












Tebaldi, Te Kanawa, and Fleming are gorgeous to me too- but Scotto is heart-rending _DRA-MA_!!


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> I think the latter reason more likely. Desdemona comes third to Otello and Iago really in terms of interest. Technically the role holds few of the demands of many other Verdi soprano roles , and dramatically Desdemona can hardly compete with say Violetta, Lady Macbeth or even Gilda. She remains the sweet, wronged wife from beginning to end. That there can be a little more dramatic meat to the role was proved by Scotto, who remains my favourite Desdemona for all that the role is more beautifully sung by the likes of Tebaldi, Te Kanawa and Fleming.


But of course we would still love her in the role. I'm sure if she had done it, it would have been amazing. The role perhaps doesn't provide as many dramatic possibilities as other Verdi roles, but so what. This is another thing that I love about Callas. She could do drama and comedy. She could do so many varied characters believably. With some opera singers you only think of them in certain type of roles. But with Callas it's more of a question if she can sing it. Maybe this is the reason why people accuse us fans for always saying that Callas would have been great in the role. Because with Callas it's easy to imagine her in a role she never sang or sang perhaps only one aria. But of course when I think other roles I think of the singers that actually sang them. It's just sometimes interesting to think about what she might have done with a certain role.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Tebaldi, Te Kanawa, and Fleming are gorgeous to me too- but Scotto is heart-rending _DRA-MA_!!


I haven't seen the Met Otello with Scotto and Vickers yet. I again subscribe to the Met On Demand so maybe I will watch it soon. I recently watched the Manon Lescaut with Scotto and Domingo. Absolutely fabulous!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Diminuendo said:


> I haven't seen the Met Otello with Scotto and Vickers yet. I again subscribe to the Met On Demand so maybe I will watch it soon. I recently watched the Manon Lescaut with Scotto and Domingo. Absolutely fabulous!


The combination of Vickers and Scotto is irresistible and MacNeil, if not quite Gobbi, is still very good. Really a must watch!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Diminuendo said:


> I haven't seen the Met Otello with Scotto and Vickers yet. I again subscribe to the Met On Demand so maybe I will watch it soon. I recently watched the Manon Lescaut with Scotto and Domingo. Absolutely fabulous!












I'd love to see that Scotto _Manon Lescaut_- thanks for segueing off in that 'nota bene' direction.

I love 'watching' Scotto in the Levine MET _Otello_, but I like Levine's conducting better with the National Philharmonic on his RCA studio recording.

Scotto, of course, is great either way.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

I just love Callas' _Carmen_ so much. I was listening to it last night. From the 'outset' you know that she's in charge. She's a woman who knows what she wants- and GOES FOR IT.

Small wonder that _Carmen_ was Nietzsche's favorite opera.

CARMEN
_Eh! Compère, que fais-tu là?_

JOSÉ
_Je fais une chaîne pour attacher mon épinglette_.

CARMEN
_What are you up to there?..._

JOSÉ
_I'm making a chain to fix my priming-pin._

Callas' sexy supreme self-confidence just jumps out at you- like a tigress; lovingly though.

And when she's threatened with arrest for her cavalier insouciance and disturbing the peace?

CARMEN
_Tralalalala,
coupe-moi, brûle-moi,_
_je ne te dirai rien;
tralalalala,
je brave tout -
le feu, et le ciel même_!

Tralalalala,
cut me, burn me,
I shall tell you _nothing_;
tralalala,
I defy everything -
fire, the sword, and heaven_ itself_!

The way she inflects "nothing" and "itself" are so deliciously defiant and absolutely SEX-Y! I get excited every time I hear this passage.

And finally, when Zuniga leaves Carmen to be incarcerated by Don Jose, Callas just positively EX-UDES 'gypsy-defiant-fierce-and-free':

ZUNIGA (à Carmen)
_La peste!
Décidément vous avez la main leste !_

CARMEN
_Tralalalala. . ._

ZUNIGA (to Carmen)
Plague on it!
Decidedly you have a ready hand!

CARMEN
Tralalalala. . .

Callas' "tralalalala" is soooooo sexy. I mean, she really does sound and act like a _gitana andaluz_- and not some beautiful songbird.

I treasure her in this.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Diminuendo said:


> But of course we would still love her in the role. I'm sure if she had done it, it would have been amazing. The role perhaps doesn't provide as many dramatic possibilities as other Verdi roles, but so what. This is another thing that I love about Callas. She could do drama and comedy. She could do so many varied characters believably. With some opera singers you only think of them in certain type of roles. But with Callas it's more of a question if she can sing it. *Maybe this is the reason why people accuse us fans for always saying that Callas would have been great in the role.* Because with Callas it's easy to imagine her in a role she never sang or sang perhaps only one aria. But of course when I think other roles I think of the singers that actually sang them. It's just sometimes interesting to think about what she might have done with a certain role.


Great thespians are always conscious of their limitations. Even some of our greatest actors (Olivier, Guiness, Maggie Smith) have turned down roles because they knew they were unsuited to them. Even someone with Callas' astonishing versitility would have been conscious of this. Knowing your limitations is part of greatness - why Vickers never sang Siegfried.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Great thespians are always conscious of their limitations. Even some of our greatest actors (Olivier, Guiness, Maggie Smith) have turned down roles because they knew they were unsuited to them. Even someone with Callas' astonishing versitility would have been conscious of this. Knowing your limitations is part of greatness - why Vickers never sang Siegfried.


I'm not sure limitations is the right word. Of all Verdi's soprano roles, Desdemona is the least technically challenging, possibly excepting Alice Ford and Nanetta. I think it more likely the role held little interest for her, because the opera so obviously belongs to Otello and Iago. She makes a very convincing Gilda and Amina (in *La Sonnambula*, both of which might have seemed not suited to her.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm not sure limitations is the right word. Of all Verdi's soprano roles, Desdemona is the least technically challenging, possibly excepting Alice Ford and Nanetta. I think it more likely the role held little interest for her, because the opera so obviously belongs to Otello and Iago. She makes a very convincing Gilda and Amina (in *La Sonnambula*, both of which might have seemed not suited to her.












Callas 'said' that she likes "the challenge." _;D_

Take "_Casta Diva_" and "_Ah! Bello a me ritorna_" from _Norma_.

Or "_O, rendetemi la speme_," "_Qui la voce sua soave_," and "_Vien, diletto, e in ciel la luna_" from _I puritani._

I mean, her '_debut_' recital album only had some of the most technically-demanding arias ever done. . . and done dramatically better and more expressively beautiful than anyone.

Quite a 'feat'. . . for a 'start.'

Tullio Serafin said, "That woman can sing anything."

- What an understatement.

How about, "That woman can sing anything-and-a-half"?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

I can never get enough of exciting singing- its a catalyst for my personality. It makes me feel so ALIVE.

And there's a reason Divina is the patron saint of Drag Queens as well: She's bigger than life- _simplement le meilleur.
_
"_Really, you New Yorkers can have no idea of what that woman's voice was like, because you heard her only later in her career. But those first London Normas! It was before she lost all the weight, you know. The sheer *size* of the voice, and what she could do with it! When she sang with Stignani, the Adalgisia, you couldn't tell which was which sometimes. She had such a beautifully rich and dark quality a the bottom of the voice, and yet the high notes were all there too._"

- Richard Bonynge, "The Pinnacle," _Opera News_, April 4, 1970


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

> I think Ponselle has the range, control, flexibility, and agility of Callas- and of course she has something Callas doesn't always have, namely a rich velvet and varnish to her voice.
> 
> *However, Callas' dramatic instincts and imaginative voice colorations are sans pareil- incisive, penetrating, and powerful. Her inflections and shading melded to her fierce technique and searching intelligence make her singing more like a prism- where she brings out all the colors, tints, and hues imaginable to express love, passion, gentleness, despair, sexiness, ferocity- everything. No singer mirrors the depths of the soul like Callas does. *
> 
> ...


*I love this "prism" analogy by Marschallin.......*

The white light that is all around us and we accept this normal state, however that same light when passed through a prism it reveals another world of beautiful detail and depth, what a surprise this world of beauty is there all the time just below our level of perception just takes a special force to reveal its hidden beauty to us.......a singer who is a prism is very special indeed!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> *I love this "prism" analogy by Marschallin.......*
> 
> The white light that is all around us and we accept this normal state, however that same light when passed through a prism it reveals another world of beautiful detail and depth, what a surprise this world of beauty is there all the time just below our level of perception just takes a special force to reveal its hidden beauty to us.......a singer who is a prism is very special indeed!












Lovely how you put that, Dark Angel. . .

The 'Three B's' get me every time: brains, *beauty*, and breeding.

Callas intuits it all, she beautifully-expresses it all, and she does it with such style.

Callas is a triple-threat.

I'm merely a single-threat.

Ha. Ha. Ha.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm not sure limitations is the right word. Of all Verdi's soprano roles, Desdemona is the least technically challenging, possibly excepting Alice Ford and Nanetta. I think it more likely the role held little interest for her, because the opera so obviously belongs to Otello and Iago. She makes a very convincing Gilda and Amina (in *La Sonnambula*, both of which might have seemed not suited to her.


One cannot tell why Callas did not sing Desdemona but one can just speculate. Interesting that Olivier did both Iago and Othello (Shakespeare's of course) yet always reckoned he was more of a natural Iago than Othello. He never attempted Falstaff as he realised he would be way out of his ground. Of course, that may not apply to Callas but Desdemona may not have figured in the roles that Callas identified with. Or maybe she never got round to it until too late. Interesting the review on Divina of her performance of the arias:

'Callas never performed the role of Desdemona in Otello, yet the long opening scene of the fourth act, recorded for EMI on 16 and 17 December 1963, comprises nearly half of her second Verdi recital. In common with the Turandot example above, the scene combines a layering of time and narrative. Desdemona confides in her maid Emilia about her troubled state of mind as she prepares to retire for the night. Her prosaic actions are interspersed with long reveries about the unhappy romance experienced by her mother's young servant Barbara and the "Canzon del Salice"-"Willow Song"-that she sang, and which Desdemona repeats. Callas creates an even more compelling reality of Verdi's already brilliant multi-textured scena. Using several vocal tones, she emphasizes Desdemona's growing paranoia and presentiment of death each time she returns to reality; the nostalgic reveries, intended to distract herself, eventually connect her distant thoughts with her present predicament. For the foreground, Callas sings in a weary, almost parlando style; the mid-ground reminiscences about Barbara are lyrical and melancholy; and the "Willow Song," beginning as a background event, is performed in the desolate, almost hypnotic manner suggested by Verdi's scoring, a sad lullaby that Callas sometimes almost hums rather than sings, its unaccompanied refrains of "Salce" vibrato-less, distant, and hollow. As the scene and the form-reality/narrative/"Willow Song"-proceed, they are eventually fused, Callas's Desdemona passing through vague depression, terror, and finally, resignation where her voice in the present is as doleful as it was in the narrative, the three levels resolved with her tender, careworn "Emilia, addio. Come m'ardon le ciglia! È presagio di pianto. Buona notte."-"Goodbye Emilia. How my eyes burn! It means that tears are coming. Good night." As the realization of her fate strikes her at last, Desdemona's wrenching "Ah, Emilia, Emilia, addio, Emilia, addio!," in stark contrast with everything that preceded it, is made achingly poignant by Callas's impassioned use of dynamics and phrase-shaping. The scena is emotionally shattering and transfiguring for the listener. At this stage in her life, Callas's voice was in tatters, but even lacking her earlier vocal riches, she extracts every grain of almost unbearable expressivity contained in the score.'

The Performance Practice of Maria Callas - Interpretation and Instinct
by Dr. Robert E. Seletsky


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> One cannot tell why Callas did not sing Desdemona but one can just speculate. Interesting that Olivier did both Iago and Othello (Shakespeare's of course) yet always reckoned he was more of a natural Iago than Othello. He never attempted Falstaff as he realised he would be way out of his ground. Of course, that may not apply to Callas but Desdemona may not have figured in the roles that Callas identified with. Or maybe she never got round to it until too late. Interesting the review on Divina of her performance of the arias:
> 
> 'Callas never performed the role of Desdemona in Otello, yet the long opening scene of the fourth act, recorded for EMI on 16 and 17 December 1963, comprises nearly half of her second Verdi recital. In common with the Turandot example above, the scene combines a layering of time and narrative. Desdemona confides in her maid Emilia about her troubled state of mind as she prepares to retire for the night. Her prosaic actions are interspersed with long reveries about the unhappy romance experienced by her mother's young servant Barbara and the "Canzon del Salice"-"Willow Song"-that she sang, and which Desdemona repeats. Callas creates an even more compelling reality of Verdi's already brilliant multi-textured scena. Using several vocal tones, she emphasizes Desdemona's growing paranoia and presentiment of death each time she returns to reality; the nostalgic reveries, intended to distract herself, eventually connect her distant thoughts with her present predicament. For the foreground, Callas sings in a weary, almost parlando style; the mid-ground reminiscences about Barbara are lyrical and melancholy; and the "Willow Song," beginning as a background event, is performed in the desolate, almost hypnotic manner suggested by Verdi's scoring, a sad lullaby that Callas sometimes almost hums rather than sings, its unaccompanied refrains of "Salce" vibrato-less, distant, and hollow. As the scene and the form-reality/narrative/"Willow Song"-proceed, they are eventually fused, Callas's Desdemona passing through vague depression, terror, and finally, resignation where her voice in the present is as doleful as it was in the narrative, the three levels resolved with her tender, careworn "Emilia, addio. Come m'ardon le ciglia! È presagio di pianto. Buona notte."-"Goodbye Emilia. How my eyes burn! It means that tears are coming. Good night." As the realization of her fate strikes her at last, Desdemona's wrenching "Ah, Emilia, Emilia, addio, Emilia, addio!," in stark contrast with everything that preceded it, is made achingly poignant by Callas's impassioned use of dynamics and phrase-shaping. The scena is emotionally shattering and transfiguring for the listener. At this stage in her life, Callas's voice was in tatters, but even lacking her earlier vocal riches, she extracts every grain of almost unbearable expressivity contained in the score.'
> 
> ...












_Herr Doktor_ *R*obert *E*. *S*eletsky- *RES*.

I 'like' that man. _;D_


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Callas was uniquely capable of working the magic of art triumphing over nature - who would have expected that voice to create the most poignant of Butterflys or Mimis? - and she might have pulled off the miracle with Desdemona as well and found a unique approach to her. But in spite of Verdi's beautiful music, the character is rather one-dimensional, with little to do in the opera but suffer with dignity, and I suspect Callas would not have found the assignment very interesting. Contrary to some here, I don't even find her recording exceptional, though of course it is fine; other sopranos have brought as much feeling to it, and certainly lovelier voices and firmer technique than Callas had a that stage. With badly occluded vowels, an incipient wobble even on E and F, and feeble and unsupported pianissimos, you cannot do justice to music requiring such pure vocalism even if your intentions are clear. Too bad this wasn't on her first Verdi recital.


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Callas was uniquely capable of working the magic of art triumphing over nature - who would have expected that voice to create the most poignant of Butterflys or Mimis? - and she might have pulled off the miracle with Desdemona as well and found a unique approach to her. But in spite of Verdi's beautiful music, the character is rather one-dimensional, with little to do in the opera but suffer with dignity, and I suspect Callas would not have found the assignment very interesting.


Do characters like Mimi or Butterfly really have so much more depth you think?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

OperaChic said:


> Do characters like Mimi or Butterfly really have so much more depth you think?


Well, Butterfly is much more dimensional than Mimi or Desdemona, in that she begins as a completely naive girl and ends as a terribly experienced young woman, and has the mind and manners of another culture as well. Callas plays all that to the hilt, and it's the only one of the three roles she did on stage. I suspect she skipped Mimi and Desdemona because she simply found them uninteresting - a sort of challenge to her artistry, no doubt, but not the sort of dramatic challenge she craved. And in neither role does the music require any coloratura prowess, which may have made, say, Gilda more attractive to her than it would otherwise have been.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Well, Butterfly is much more dimensional than Mimi or Desdemona, in that she begins as a completely naive girl and ends as a terribly experienced young woman, and has the mind and manners of another culture as well. Callas plays all that to the hilt, and it's the only one of the three roles she did on stage. I suspect she skipped Mimi and Desdemona because she simply found them uninteresting - a sort of challenge to her artistry, no doubt, but not the sort of dramatic challenge she craved. And in neither role does the music require any coloratura prowess, which may have made, say, Gilda more attractive to her than it would otherwise have been.


And actually Gilda is quite an interesting character too. She is not just a simple one-dimensional sweet ingenue. She sacrifices herself for love, albeit misplaced. Verdi's music reflects this too. What a world of difference there is between _Caro nome_ and _Tutte le feste_. The problem for light voiced coloratura sopranos who often play the part, is that they will not have the power to ride the ensembles in the last act, where Callas has no problem of course.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> And actually Gilda is quite an interesting character too. She is not just a simple one-dimensional sweet ingenue. She sacrifices herself for love, albeit misplaced. Verdi's music reflects this too. What a world of difference there is between _Caro nome_ and _Tutte le feste_. The problem for light voiced coloratura sopranos who often play the part, is that they will not have the power to ride the ensembles in the last act, where Callas has no problem of course.


A very interesting take. I suspect I think, to the extent I have thought about it at all, that Gilda sacrifices herself for love precisely because she is a sweet ingenue (if not one-dimensional). A more experienced and worldly woman would probably not be so naive - and then we wouldn't have Rigoletto as we know it. 
Women sacrificing themselves for love are hardly rare in opera. It's an important motif in Wagner, beginning with Senta and ending with Brunhilde. Violetta is another outstanding example.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Steatopygous said:


> A very interesting take. I suspect I think, to the extent I have thought about it at all, that Gilda sacrifices herself for love precisely because she is a sweet ingenue (if not one-dimensional). *A more experienced and worldly woman would probably not be so naive - and then we wouldn't have Rigoletto as we know it. *
> Women sacrificing themselves for love are hardly rare in opera. It's an important motif in Wagner, beginning with Senta and ending with Brunhilde. Violetta is another outstanding example.


Interesting that in Victor Hugo's version _Le Roi S'amuse_, Blanche (Gilda) has lived as the King's (Duke's) mistress for some time after the rape scene. It's only when she finds out his unfaithfulness she agrees to her father's (Tribolet) plan to assassinate the King. However, she is then filled with remorse and comes upon the assassin and gives her life for love. Verdi omits this part which makes Gilda's love unto death seem far fetched in the opera. Mind you, by that time you are lost in the music anyway so you think so what?


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Interesting that in Victor Hugo's version _Le Roi S'amuse_, Blanche (Gilda) has lived as the King's (Duke's) mistress for some time after the rape scene. It's only when she finds out his unfaithfulness she agrees to her father's (Tribolet) plan to assassinate the King. However, she is then filled with remorse and comes upon the assassin and gives her life for love. Verdi omits this part which makes Gilda's love unto death seem far fetched in the opera. Mind you, by that time you are lost in the music anyway so you think so what?


Each his own. I've never considered Gilda's sacrifice far fetched, it merely rams home the devastating behaviour of the unscrupulous Duke. I believe she's totally ruined by a man her father played along with. But the abduction scene now that...


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Interesting that in Victor Hugo's version _Le Roi S'amuse_, Blanche (Gilda) has lived as the King's (Duke's) mistress for some time after the rape scene. It's only when she finds out his unfaithfulness she agrees to her father's (Tribolet) plan to assassinate the King. However, she is then filled with remorse and comes upon the assassin and gives her life for love. Verdi omits this part which makes Gilda's love unto death seem far fetched in the opera. Mind you, by that time you are lost in the music anyway so you think so what?


I reckon Verdi's plot worked better. Young, innocent, passionate, she believes in the purity of love and in sacrifice in a way that stretches credulity with a wronged mistress. The contrast between Gilda and the Duke is one of the dramatic foci of the opera. 
In fact, this story makes me uneasier than any other Verdi opera, but you are right about the music: it sweeps one away. The restless prowling Rigoletto making enemies, the dawning of romantic love in the innocent Gilda (no one sang Caro nome better than Callas), the abduction (as Belowpar notes), the great quartet etc etc etc. Astounding genius, with much more to look forward to at the time Rigoletto was first performed.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

I just love the Rigoletto recording with Gobbi and Di Stefano. Callas really works wonders as Gilda. With her you you care so much of the character, that at the end you would like to scream don't do it. But then again you can't really hate Di Stefano's duke either  And Gobbi of course is just amazing. I'm not that happy about the Madama Butterfly. Gedda is great, but if only it had been Di Stefano. And Gobbi of course as Sharpless. Still it's easily my favorite recording of the opera.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Callas was uniquely capable of working the magic of art triumphing over nature - who would have expected that voice to create the most poignant of Butterflys or Mimis? - and she might have pulled off the miracle with Desdemona as well and found a unique approach to her. But in spite of Verdi's beautiful music, the character is rather one-dimensional, with little to do in the opera but suffer with dignity, and I suspect Callas would not have found the assignment very interesting. *Contrary to some here, I don't even find her recording exceptional, though of course it is fine; other sopranos have brought as much feeling to it, and certainly lovelier voices and firmer technique than Callas had a that stage. With badly occluded vowels, an incipient wobble even on E and F, and feeble and unsupported pianissimos, you cannot do justice to music requiring such pure vocalism even if your intentions are clear. Too bad this wasn't on her first Verdi recital. *












'Contrary' is fine- because "without contraries"- as Blake reminds us- "there is no progress." _;D_

So, continuing in the latitudinarian spirit of _Der Meister_ Duck, I have to respectfully disagree with the conclusion if not the (faultless) analysis of the technical side of Callas' singing.

Yes, Callas' voice and technique are sub-optimal with the "Willow Song"- granted.

But even when I compare it to Renata Tebaldi's or (even better- for me at any rate) 'Renata Scotto's'- both of whom have tremendous physical assets for this aria- I 'still' prefer the Callas.

She sings it with a penetrating psychological depth of insight that moves me beyond compare.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Steatopygous said:


> A very interesting take. I suspect I think, to the extent I have thought about it at all, that Gilda sacrifices herself for love precisely because she is a sweet ingenue (if not one-dimensional). A more experienced and worldly woman would probably not be so naive - and then we wouldn't have Rigoletto as we know it.
> Women sacrificing themselves for love are hardly rare in opera. It's an important motif in Wagner, beginning with Senta and ending with Brunhilde. Violetta is another outstanding example.


I didn't mean to suggest for a moment that there is anything worldly about Gilda. Yes, it is precisely because she is so naive that she sacrifices herself for love, but she is not some painted doll. Callas makes us see from the outset Gilda's capacity for love, not only with the Duke, but in the deep love she has for her father. The irony is that, in keeping her away from the world, Rigoletto sows the seeds of her eventual demise. With no experience of the world, she cannot believe that people can and do act appallingly.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> 'Contrary' is fine- because "without contraries"- as Blake reminds us- "there is no progress." _;D_
> 
> So, continuing in the latitudinarian spirit of _Der Meister_ Duck, I have to respectfully disagree with the conclusion if not the (faultless) analysis of the technical side of Callas' singing.
> 
> ...


Yes, yes... It really comes down mostly to one's tolerance for Callas's vocal infirmities, and to intention versus realization. Try Freni:






I find nothing lacking in that. The very essence of wronged innocence. Callas of course has a dark, haunting timbre which has its own peculiar emotional resonances, and there's a bleak introversion about her Desdemona which may appeal to you. It doesn't to me particularly, but _chacun a son gout_.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Today happens to be the 38th anniversary of Callas' passing. In commemoration, BBC has made available online a 4 min extract of its interview with Callas on May 24, 1958, soon after her arrival in London for the Covent Garden Centenary Gala as well as the legendary series of La Traviata she was to sing at the same venue.

Accessible via this link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p019jl6m


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

I watched today the Met Un Ballo with Ricciarelli and Pavarotti. After watching that I appreciate the Callas recording so much more. It was a good performance, but Callas, Di Stefano and Gobbi are just so much better. They just get so much more out of the roles. Compared to that the Met performance just felt stale.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Yes, yes... It really comes down mostly to one's tolerance for Callas's vocal infirmities, and to intention versus realization. Try Freni:
> 
> 
> 
> ...












_Chacun a son goût_, certainly- _et de haute drame est pas pour tout le monde. Mais 'je vis' pour cela. _

I can't imagine living a placid existence with beautiful, but merely 'pleasantly-boring' singing, myself. . .

Thanks for the gorgeous Freni/Kleiber link.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I 'still' prefer the Callas.
> 
> She sings it with a penetrating psychological depth of insight that moves me beyond compare.


And there you have nailed it. Both why we love music so much and constantly return to it, and also why educated intelligent people with cultivated taste can differ so much: it's what moves us. We don't really have that much control over what moves us, all we know is that it does, and that it is powerful. (I've never gone to a horror movie or watched Hannibal Lechter simply because I don't want to be moved in that way.)
The more we know about how music is constructed or the work involved in the art of singing, the better we can appreciate it. And we will usually be explicitly conscious of a ravishingly spun high trill or pianissimo or the power or expressivity of a voice. But in the end it can be hard really to get to the core of what moves us = we just know that it does.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Steatopygous said:


> And there you have nailed it. Both why we love music so much and constantly return to it, and also why educated intelligent people with cultivated taste can differ so much: it's what moves us. We don't really have that much control over what moves us, all we know is that it does, and that it is powerful. (I've never gone to a horror movie or watched Hannibal Lechter simply because I don't want to be moved in that way.)
> The more we know about how music is constructed or the work involved in the art of singing, the better we can appreciate it. And we will usually be explicitly conscious of a ravishingly spun high trill or pianissimo or the power or expressivity of a voice. But in the end it can be hard really to get to the core of what moves us = we just know that it does.


So true. And not just music. Some things in life can be explained, but what moves us is a bit of a mystery. And I don't even want to know. With Callas I just heard Habanera from Carmen and that was it. Later I have of course tried to analyze why she has this effect on me. Some parts of it I have figured out, but not everything  Some Callas fans don't like her later recordings and performances because of her vocal decline. I myself appreciate her art fully and not just certain things of it. That is perhaps why I thoroughly enjoy her later career as well. It's like me and Maria have an agreement. She gives all she has and I enjoy it. When I listen I can imagine her apologizing that she is unable to do better and I wholeheartedly accept. The rough patches are still there, but I don't mind them.

I think that the best things happen in the blink of an eye. You know pretty much immediately if you love something. I fell in love with all my favorite opera singers after hearing perhaps just one aria. Of course other people might have different opinion. But I can sense it quite quickly if I like something.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Steatopygous said:


> And there you have nailed it. Both why we love music so much and constantly return to it, and *also why educated intelligent people with cultivated taste can differ so much: it's what moves us. *We don't really have that much control over what moves us, all we know is that it does, and that it is powerful. (I've never gone to a horror movie or watched Hannibal Lechter simply because I don't want to be moved in that way.)
> The more we know about how music is constructed or the work involved in the art of singing, the better we can appreciate it. And we will usually be explicitly conscious of a ravishingly spun high trill or pianissimo or the power or expressivity of a voice. But in the end it can be hard really to get to the core of what moves us = we just know that it does.


You are right of course. Why 'one man's meat' and all that................. Why we shouldn't be offended if someone says they are not moved by a certain snger - even Callas. We may not agree but we must not impose our subjective views on others. I personally find de Los Angeles more moving than Callas in la Boheme although I am astonished by Callas' art in the role. I am astonished when people think Mozart is boring. But I have to allow them their point of view even though I might feel they need the attention of an audiologist.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Diminuendo said:


> So true. And not just music. Some things in life can be explained, but what moves us is a bit of a mystery. And I don't even want to know. With *Callas I just heard Habanera from Carmen and that was it. L*ater I have of course tried to analyze why she has this effect on me. Some parts of it I have figured out, but not everything  Some Callas fans don't like her later recordings and performances because of her vocal decline. I myself appreciate her art fully and not just certain things of it. That is perhaps why I thoroughly enjoy her later career as well. It's like me and Maria have an agreement. She gives all she has and I enjoy it. When I listen I can imagine her apologizing that she is unable to do better and I wholeheartedly accept. The rough patches are still there, but I don't mind them.
> 
> I think that the best things happen in the blink of an eye. You know pretty much immediately if you love something. I fell in love with all my favorite opera singers after hearing perhaps just one aria. Of course other people might have different opinion. But I can sense it quite quickly if I like something.


Now again I would say that this was a recording that put me off Callas for years. It came out when I was a lad and just getting into classical music and I just didn't like the sound her voice was making compared with (eg) Price and de los Angeles. Pity it was recorded too late when (imo) the voice was almost shot. There is no denying the artistry but the voice just doesn't appeal. I know some might be indignant at me saying this but it is subjective not objective. To me the insights Callas beings does not make up for the fact that her voice had by then deteriorated badly. (Of course, she is not helped in the recording by Gedda's pallid Jose and Massard's dull dog Escamillo or Pretre's insensitive conducting.) 
Later, since I got into opera I have heard many of Callas' earlier recordings and they are astonishing. Pity the Carmen was made too late.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Yes, yes... It really comes down mostly to one's tolerance for Callas's vocal infirmities, and to intention versus realization. Try Freni:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I prefer Freni to Tebaldi, whom I once loved, but whom I now find rather blank and uncommunicative, and I prefer Scotto to both, despite the hint of vinegar in her tone, but, ultimately I'll put up with Callas's vocal deficiencies (by this time in her career) precisely for that "bleak introversion" (a great description, thanks) that doesn't appeal to you.

Late Callas is never easy listening, and I find my wobble tolerance can vary from one listening session to another. The more involved I am in the listening experience, the less, it would seem, I notice it, as the musical intelligence draws me in, Listening with only half an ear, I am more likely to hear only the frayed tone and the flapping wobbles. Either way, she is always the great singer, doing the best she can with what she has.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Now again I would say that this was a recording that put me off Callas for years. It came out when I was a lad and just getting into classical music and I just didn't like the sound her voice was making compared with (eg) Price and de los Angeles. Pity it was recorded too late when (imo) the voice was almost shot. There is no denying the artistry but the voice just doesn't appeal. I know some might be indignant at me saying this but it is subjective not objective. To me the insights Callas beings does not make up for the fact that her voice had by then deteriorated badly. (Of course, she is not helped in the recording by Gedda's pallid Jose and Massard's dull dog Escamillo or Pretre's insensitive conducting.)
> Later, since I got into opera I have heard many of Callas' earlier recordings and they are astonishing. Pity the Carmen was made too late.


Well we won't go into all this again, but, as you know, I have the exact opposite reaction, not only to Callas's Carmen, but to Gedda's Jose, Massard's Escamillo and Pretre's conducting. Incidentally Callas was Legge's first choice for the Beecham *Carmen*. Beecham was keen, but Callas turned it down, saying her French was not yet good enough to record a whole role in French, a detail that rarely bothers the majority of singers; certainly not Corelli, whose French on the firts Karajan recording is absolutely execrable.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Well we won't go into all this again, but, as you know, I have the exact opposite reaction, not only to Callas's Carmen, but to Gedda's Jose, Massard's Escamillo and Pretre's conducting. Incidentally Callas was Legge's first choice for the Beecham *Carmen*. Beecham was keen, but Callas turned it down, saying her French was not yet good enough to record a whole role in French, a detail that rarely bothers the majority of singers; certainly not Corelli, whose French on the firts Karajan recording is absolutely execrable.












(I slightly bowdlerized the text in the photo for the sake of propriety. _;D_ )

No one's Carmen is more the free-spirit, _femme fatale_ Andalusian gypsy than Callas'.

But then perhaps that's why she scares the little boys so much and is such an irresistible allure to the men.


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## Tietjens Stolz (Jun 2, 2015)

---Post deleted---


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

To be honest, I don't even hear the shortcomings and wobble everyone goes on about Callas' singing. I'm listening to the emotion and the portrayal, and they're so good that whatever the problems are don't even register with me. At all.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I prefer Freni to Tebaldi, whom I once loved, but whom I now find rather blank and uncommunicative, and I prefer Scotto to both, despite the hint of vinegar in her tone, but, ultimately I'll put up with Callas's vocal deficiencies (by this time in her career) precisely for that "bleak introversion" (a great description, thanks) that doesn't appeal to you.
> 
> Late Callas is never easy listening, and I find my wobble tolerance can vary from one listening session to another. The more involved I am in the listening experience, the less, it would seem, I notice it, as the musical intelligence draws me in, Listening with only half an ear, I am more likely to hear only the frayed tone and the flapping wobbles. Either way, she is always the great singer, doing the best she can with what she has.


This reminds me of that statement by Giulini (which I can only paraphrase) to the effect that listening to Callas can be like hearing the sound of a stringed instrument: the immediate sensation may be a little strange and not always pleasing, but the longer you listen the more it convinces you of its beauty. This is sometimes my experience if I haven't heard her for a while. The sound becomes a vehicle of expression so potent and fascinating that I no longer hear it as sound - an uncommon experience when listening to singers. In her late recordings the vocal problems sometimes interfere with that transsubstantiation, and as a former singer I find that strained or unsupported vocal sounds set up "sympathetic reactions" in my body and compromise the artistic experience, requiring me to change my perspective from one of spontaneous pleasure to a more cerebral appreciation of her good intentions. After a Callas performance, other singers tend to be disappointing, but after hearing some of her late efforts, hearing other singers can come as a relief. Of course even the late recordings offer some incomparable insights and superlative musicianship.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

When asked one time by a journalist on how she compared herself with Tebaldi, Callas was said to have said, *"I am like a violin built by an unknown artisan, but my instrument is played by a Paganini, whereas Tebaldi is a Stradivarius played by an amateur." *Callas was known to have admired Tebaldi's classically beautiful voice and she herself was well aware that her particular vocal timbre could startle and cause discomfort to many. But the classical beauty she didn't have in her natural vocal endowment is more than made up for by her extraordinary musicianship, that is, her tremendous ability to make expressive use of her voice and exploit fully coloristic possibilities of her highly divided vocal registers, all geared to create one highly individual and unforgettable portrayal after another, even for the roles and arias/scenes that she learned only for the recording studio. Her musicianship brings out layers of meanings underneath the score and the deeper core of a particular character that could be underexplored if left to singers with more even and rounded voices yet without the capability to delineate emotional and dramatic specificities within a role and across different roles.


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

"I am like a violin built by an unknown artisan, but my instrument is played by a Paganini, whereas Tebaldi is a Stradivarius played by an amateur." (Callas)

Cheeky cow.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Callas has also sad: "Some say have a beautiful voice, some say I have not. It is a matter of opinion. All I can say those who don't like it should not come to hear me."

Well, Polyphemus, I remember seeing you admitting yourself in one of the Callas threads that you are not really into the genre of opera. If this is really so, why should you be bothered at all about her, let along making any remark on her, or any other singer???

For any singer or composer whom I am not interested in, I never bother to step into any of their fan clubs and ending up in trouble making myself the target of countless pairs of wide-opened eyes. Such attention-seeking is just NOT worth it.


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## Tietjens Stolz (Jun 2, 2015)

plumblossom said:


> Callas has also sad: "Some say have a beautiful voice, some say I have not. It is a matter of opinion. All I can say those who don't like it should not come to hear me."
> 
> Well, Polyphemus, I remember seeing you admitting yourself in one of the Callas threads that you are not really into the genre of opera. If this is really so, why should you be bothered at all about her, let along making any remark on her, or any other singer???
> 
> For any singer or composer whom I am not interested in, I never bother to step into any of their fan clubs and ending up in trouble making myself the target of countless pairs of wide-opened eyes. Such attention-seeking is just NOT worth it.


Well said, Plummie.  But frankly, we should not even be bothered about people of such kind and just move on with serious discussion about Callas.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> Well we won't go into all this again, but, as you know, I have the exact opposite reaction, not only to Callas's Carmen, but to Gedda's Jose, Massard's Escamillo and Pretre's conducting. Incidentally Callas was Legge's first choice for the Beecham *Carmen*. Beecham was keen, but Callas turned it down, saying her French was not yet good enough to record a whole role in French, a detail that rarely bothers the majority of singers; certainly not Corelli, whose French on the firts Karajan recording is absolutely execrable.


I think this again shows just how subjective this matter is. Pity Callas didn't do it with Beecham though as her voice was a shadow of its former self when she did Carmen, a;though the artistry is in no doubt. I just wonder what the reaction of the critics would have been if it had been anyone but Callas but we'll never know. Anyway, that's my (subjective) reaction to it. I'll get the discs out again and re-listen sometime.
OK I know what Carelli sings is nowhere heard in la belle France (it is quite like some African French I have heard though!) but what a sound! What passion! As Desmond Shaw-Taylor said, "Corelli gives us some anxious moments (including his off-stage ditty that gets horribly out of tune) but there is a passion and a ring to his Jose that brings a suffering creature before our eyes!" In contrast he said that although Gedda sang with great style and taste he "found his vocal personality colourless." That is a bit harsh but I do find Gedda's Jose a bit feeble - more so with Pretre than with Beecham. As for 'ma Franco', if you read John Culshaw apparently Corelli's wife was an absolute pain during the recording sessions not letting the French voice coach near him because the coach was a woman. Of course, she may have had reason! Then she apparently demanded an extra $1000 for Corelli taking the French lessons which he never actually attended! 
Incidentally just how you could find Massard's Escamillo anything but a dull dog is beyond me. His French is good but otherwise he is hopeless! As the original review said he completely lacks any sort of bounce and swagger. Just compare Blanc on Beecham or Merrill on Karajan 1 or (best of all) van Dam (swaggering and preening) with Solti or Karajan 2. 
Anyway, as I say, our reactions are subjective. Let's just enjoy Carmen! I'll sort out my Callas set again and re-listen! And you have a good time with 'me Franco'! :lol:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Polyphemus said:


> "I am like a violin built by an unknown artisan, but my instrument is played by a Paganini, whereas Tebaldi is a Stradivarius played by an amateur." (Callas)
> 
> Cheeky cow.


Curious taxonomy for a thoroughbred.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I think this again shows just how subjective this matter is. Pity Callas didn't do it with Beecham though as her voice was a shadow of its former self when she did Carmen, a;though the artistry is in no doubt. I just wonder what the reaction of the critics would have been if it had been anyone but Callas but we'll never know. Anyway, that's my (subjective) reaction to it. I'll get the discs out again and re-listen sometime.
> OK I know what Carelli sings is nowhere heard in la belle France (it is quite like some African French I have heard though!) but what a sound! What passion! As Desmond Shaw-Taylor said, "Corelli gives us some anxious moments (including his off-stage ditty that gets horribly out of tune) but there is a passion and a ring to his Jose that brings a suffering creature before our eyes!" In contrast he said that although Gedda sang with great style and taste he "found his vocal personality colourless." That is a bit harsh but I do find Gedda's Jose a bit feeble - more so with Pretre than with Beecham. As for 'ma Franco', if you read John Culshaw apparently Corelli's wife was an absolute pain during the recording sessions not letting the French voice coach near him because the coach was a woman. Of course, she may have had reason! Then she apparently demanded an extra $1000 for Corelli taking the French lessons which he never actually attended!
> Incidentally just how you could find Massard's Escamillo anything but a dull dog is beyond me. His French is good but otherwise he is hopeless! As the original review said he completely lacks any sort of bounce and swagger. Just compare Blanc on Beecham or Merrill on Karajan 1 or (best of all) van Dam (swaggering and preening) with Solti or Karajan 2.
> Anyway, as I say, our reactions are subjective. Let's just enjoy Carmen! I'll sort out my Callas set again and re-listen! And you have a good time with 'me Franco'! :lol:


Well that's just it though: no one 'but' Callas could get away with a suboptimal timbre 'because' she was the Jesus Christ of dramatic singing.

Tchaikovsky called Mozart the "Jesus Christ of music"- but I think had he lived in the twentieth century, he may have revised that assessment.


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## Charlie Mac (May 23, 2015)

Are the remasters in the Warner box set from last year the best remasters or are the Pristine Classical ones worthwhile?

Oh, and Callas had a beautiful voice with an incredible sense of feeling. Not beautiful in a creamy, Janowitz sort of way, but beautiful nonetheless.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Well that's just it though: no one 'but' Callas could get away with a suboptimal timbre 'because' she was the Jesus Christ of dramatic singing.
> 
> Tchaikovsky called Mozart the "Jesus Christ of music"- but I think had he lived in the twentieth century, he may have revised that assessment.


Well as you don't believe in Jesus Christ you obviously don't believe in Callas either! So as there was no Callas what is coming from the speakers was just created by unguided forces.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Charlie Mac said:


> Are the remasters in the Warner box set from last year the best remasters or are the Pristine Classical ones worthwhile?
> 
> Oh, and Callas had a beautiful voice with an incredible sense of feeling. Not beautiful in a creamy, Janowitz sort of way, but beautiful nonetheless.


Generally speaking the recordings are quite meticulously transferred from the original master tapes in EMI vaults and Callas' voice emerges with a freshness and clarity as though one is listening to the recordings for the first time, so just buy the Warner set with confidence. At least a couple of fellow Callasians here on TC strongly advocate Pristine's added stereophonic enhancements. You might want to try the sampling on Pristine's official website and decide for yourself whether you like it or not, before making any commitment to buy.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

plumblossom said:


> Generally speaking the recordings are quite meticulously transferred from the original master tapes in EMI vaults and Callas' voice emerges with a freshness and clarity as though one is listening to the recordings for the first time, so just buy the Warner set with confidence. At least a couple of fellow Callasians here on TC strongly advocate Pristine's added stereophonic enhancements. *You might want to try the sampling on Pristine's official website and decide for yourself whether you like it or not*, before making any commitment to buy.





Charlie Mac said:


> *Are the remasters in the Warner box set from last year the best remasters or are the Pristine Classical ones worthwhile? *


Greeting Charlie M

Its not really a "choice between the two", you first should buy the complete remastered Warner boxset, then supplement with Pristine XR ambient stereo releases, there are only 8-9 Callas Pristine XR so far and some are not in the Warner boxset. Andrew Rose was a BBC sound engineer and uses a completely different unique remaster process which he details on his website, I own all of them and think they are the very best sounding versions available.

The most important thing is not what I think, but to go the Pristine website and hear for yourself, there are high quality 5+ minute samples from every album for sale, for professional reviews the "musicweb" site has most of these albums reviewed with comments about sound improvements......

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Mar13/Bellini_Puritani_PACO085.htm


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> *Well as you don't believe in Jesus Christ you obviously don't believe in Callas either! *So as there was no Callas what is coming from the speakers was just created by unguided forces.


Even the veriest school girl of today knows 'that'- its on page one of _Muggles' Book of Magic_.


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## Braddan (Aug 23, 2015)

Its not really a "choice between the two", you first should buy the complete remastered Warner boxset, then supplement with Pristine XR ambient stereo releases, there are only 8-9 Callas Pristine XR so far and some are not in the Warner boxset. Andrew Rose was a BBC sound engineer and uses a completely different unique remaster process which he details on his website, I own all of them and think they are the very best sounding versions available.

The most important thing is not what I think, but to go the Pristine website and hear for yourself, there are high quality 5+ minute samples from every album for sale, for professional reviews the "musicweb" site has most of these albums reviewed with comments about sound improvements......

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Mar13/Bellini_Puritani_PACO085.htm[/QUOTE]

I agree entirely. The quality of the tracks from Pristine is outstanding. Some people don't like the ambient stereo because they like their vintage recordings to sound vintage but for me it's great to hear these legendary recordings without the hissing and distortions. I like the space that has been created around the voices - it's like having them in the room. So far I have only downloaded a few - a couple of Callas and the Turandot from the Met. I was so impressed that I am intending to buy more soon.

It took me a while to figure out how to play the FLAC files but patience and perseverance was rewarded ten-fold.


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## Braddan (Aug 23, 2015)

I came across this clip of Judi Dench talking about Maria. It's probably from a documentary you've all seem but I thought I'd post it anyway. I like the way she suggests their performance might shift subtly each time as they respond to each other.
If she's good enough for La Dench she's good enough for me!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Braddan said:


> I came across this clip of Judi Dench talking about Maria. It's probably from a documentary you've all seem but I thought I'd post it anyway. I like the way she suggests their performance might shift subtly each time as they respond to each other.
> If she's good enough for La Dench she's good enough for me!


Absolutely wonderful little interview with Dame Judy- thank you for that, Braddan.

I love what Judy says at the end of the clip: "She was, in my eyes, completely supreme."

- talk about putting a great quote on Callas in lapidary form.


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## Braddan (Aug 23, 2015)

I love what Judy says at the end of the clip: "She was, in my eyes, completely supreme."

- talk about putting a great quote on Callas in *lapidarian* form.[/QUOTE]

:tiphat: Ha You can always rely on Dame J for such eloquence. After all, she has made a career out playing Queens (the blue blood variety anyway)!!


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Greeting Charlie M
> 
> Its not really a "choice between the two", you first should buy the complete remastered Warner boxset, then supplement with Pristine XR ambient stereo releases, there are only 8-9 Callas Pristine XR so far and some are not in the Warner boxset. Andrew Rose was a BBC sound engineer and uses a completely different unique remaster process which he details on his website, I own all of them and think they are the very best sounding versions available.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I think the Pristine transfers are excellent; others here retch at the thought of their interventionist techniques. Listen for yourself and judge. I compared closely the 1949 Cetra recordings between the Pristine and the Warners; the Pristines lose a ton of hiss, crackle and noise. They're also not as bright, which initially I took as a point against the Pristines, but as I listened closely they sounded more natural to me. It is good that Rose provides lengthy samples so you can see how you feel about it.


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## Antony (Nov 4, 2013)

My ' Maria Callas' moments 

---
When I started to learn abc of vocal art, La Divina passed away longtime ago. Didn't know her name, didn't know who she was, what she did...whatever...La Divina was a nobody to me.

My first -teacher- of vocal art was my ex. She trained my ears by flooding my ears with tons of opera singers. Needless to describe you guys the scene I knocked nails on the heads. Until a day. That day, she still flooded my ears with opera singers like the other days...and I still knocked nails. Then she changed another LP.... after a few moments, I stopped knocking nails and listened. I didn't understand what that singer sang but I felt - hey, it's different - it's not a commercial copy. It's something different, very special. Then I asked her- she sings different than others. Who's that? she smiled and replied- of course, she's different, her name is Maria Callas- That's how the name of Maria Callas came to me.

Years after, I learned to know and admire the singing art of Dame Sutherland, Dame Caballe, Dame Schwarzkopf, Tebaldi, Della Casa, Beverly Sills, Lucia Popp... you name it, all great names in the opera world...but always, always, everytime I listen to Belcanto operas with others and then come to listen to Callas and I always feel the same way - Her singing is different, unique. With Callas, I feet heat, euphoria, despair, hope, drama... like the first day, but this time I was better armed to admire her singing, her Art.

Fast forward to recent days  i did the marathon of lieder of Brahms, Schubert, Schumann, Faure...with the box sets for a few weeks non-stop. There are great names: Mathias, DFD, Schwarzkopf, Ameling, Janet Baker.... This morning in the office, so tired, I let play my Ipod randomly, and it felt on Callas - live- in La Scala (directed by Tulio Serafin). Suddenly, it's not THE Callas I hear as usual. This time, in my head, I saw Elvira, I saw Violetta, I saw Norma, I saw Tosca..in flesh and blood. I saw them cry, breath, live. I didn't see Callas, but I saw those people. Her singing made me see, feel, live the feeling, the heat, the emotions of those people. All in the sudden, I think I understand someone said once - Maria Callas does not sing. Maria Callas lives the role. It's not Maria Callas on the scene. It's Violetta, Tosca, Norma ...on the scenes.

My boss came to my desk, asked me a question and I looked at him in a way that made him understand he bothers me, that he'd better come back later 

Maybe I still don't get the Art of other great BelCanto singers like Dame Sutherland, Dame Caballe, Beverly Sills, Natalie Dessay. I like very much their singing. I don't know why but their singings don't have the same effect on me like Maria Callas does. 

I think - Maria Callas moved me already in recorded cds. How was she in real life? Then I came to imagine anyone among you who had the chance to attend any opera show with La Divina. How was it ? Gosh! I envy you! 

That's my 'Maria Callas' moments !


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

A familiar story. Before I heard Callas I wasn't that into opera. After hearing her I got really into it. Giuseppe Di Stefano told the same story. When he first went to see an opera he didn't like it at all. But the next production he saw had Beniamino Gigli. When he heard Gigli he fell in love with opera. Usually it's one particular singer that gets us excited. Some saw a film by Mario Lanza. Renata Scotto's first live opera experience was seeing Gobbi in Rigoletto. I mean how lucky can someone be to get into opera with Gigli or Gobbi. I think it's important to hear the best singers as soon as possible. If you hear not so good singers first you may not fall in love with opera. Perhaps never if your first experience is awful. I consider myself extremely lucky to have had good first experiences and to have found my favorite singers so quickly. 

I envy all who had the opportunity to see Callas live. But partly what makes La Divina so amazing is that you get the magic with recordings too. Some singers I need to see to enjoy because they don't convey everything in a recording. Singers like Callas, Di Stefano and Gobbi on the other hand do. But then again there is nothing I wouldn't give to be able too see them live


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

I am going to beg the Callas Coterie for help stuffing the ballot box over in the 2015 TalkClassical Top Operas thread. We're well past the top 100 and several important pieces of Callas repertoire are still missing from the list---among them, Poliuto, I Vespri Siciliani, and most horrifying of all, Medea--for which I am consistently the only person voting! I urge you to visit and help rig this election. A rundown of what's already on the list can be found here:

http://www.talkclassical.com/39074-2015-tc-top-100-a-63.html


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

gardibolt said:


> I am going to beg the Callas Coterie for help stuffing the ballot box over in the 2015 TalkClassical Top Operas thread. We're well past the top 100 and several important pieces of Callas repertoire are still missing from the list---among them, Poliuto, I Vespri Siciliani, and most horrifying of all, Medea--for which I am consistently the only person voting! I urge you to visit and help rig this election. A rundown of what's already on the list can be found here:
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/39074-2015-tc-top-100-a-63.html


I'm afraid I haven't been following this thread, and confess I'm a little confused as too what it's about or how the voting works. Haven't we already voted on a Top !00? Don't tell me we have to do it all again.


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## Easy Goer (Apr 9, 2015)

Greg I believe it was decided to create a new top 100+ to reflect current members as the current list is 5 years old. You can refer to post #717 by Faustian for the current voting rules now that the top 100 has been done.


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## Antony (Nov 4, 2013)

Diminuendo said:


> ?..
> 
> I envy all who had the opportunity to see Callas live. But partly what makes La Divina so amazing is that you get the magic with recordings too. Some singers I need to see to enjoy because they don't convey everything in a recording. Singers like Callas, Di Stefano and Gobbi on the other hand do. But then again there is nothing I wouldn't give to be able too see them live


You said that right, Mr. Diminuendo. The magic in their voices! Something in their voices that make them unique, which convey the feelings to listeners.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

From Issue 24 of the *Maria Callas International Club Magazine*, here is the great Chilean pianist *Claudio Arrau *expressing his great admiration and adoration for La Divina and how Maria inspired him in seeking out the truth and the inner spirit of the music he played. _;D_


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Thanks Plummie! Good reading.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Callas is just so convincing in what ever she does. She just becomes the character. Both vocally and physically. The vocal part I knew well, but thanks to the great Callas on stage and offstage thread, I know also the looks. Whatever the part she looks it. Personally nobody has that queen look better down than Callas. She is just so fabulous.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

With Callas every note and word has such meaning. I just listened her yesterday and was again blown away. With other sopranos you get the feeling they are singing. With Callas you feel like she is communicating to you the deepest feelings and emotions of the character.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Yesterday I listened the studio Barbiere. Just a fantastic recording. All the singers are great and Callas and Gobbi simply shine throughout the opera. I really liked Alva, but still I found myself thinking of Di Stefano. Barbieri is just so good. The music, the libretto and the overall plot are just magnificent. And when you have masterful singers to enhance the pleasure. Listening with the libretto was so great. No matter what kind of opera is in question understanding is a benefit. But I think that it's especially important in comic operas. There is so much subtext and so much going on. I'd have to listen the Turco recording again someday since I listened it before without libretto.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

I have only listened some parts of the live performance of the opera. A pity that Callas didn't have more time to study and more help. Gobbi and Alva had done the opera before so they were fine. The performance could have been more like the studio recording with the live performance benefits. I think it really is a great loss that Callas didn't do more comedy. Barbiere and Turco show that she had great potential.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Diminuendo said:


> I have only listened some parts of the live performance of the opera. A pity that Callas didn't have more time to study and more help. Gobbi and Alva had done the opera before so they were fine. The performance could have been more like the studio recording with the live performance benefits. I think it really is a great loss that Callas didn't do more comedy. Barbiere and Turco show that she had great potential.


We should all have such magnificent "let downs" like the Callas/Gobbi live barber........I have never heard a Rosina with such commanding swagger and girlish charm, listen to Callas take over at 3:20 and cap it off with an electrifying climax at 5:09, where have you ever heard a performance like that before? Brava brava brava.............

Thanks to turnipoverlord for great live 56 Barber "Dunque io son"


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Diminuendo said:


> I have only listened some parts of the live performance of the opera. A pity that Callas didn't have more time to study and more help. Gobbi and Alva had done the opera before so they were fine. The performance could have been more like the studio recording with the live performance benefits. I think it really is a great loss that Callas didn't do more comedy. Barbiere and Turco show that she had great potential.


According to this review Gobbi and Alva didn't have a good evenng either

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/Mar08/Rossini_Barber_PHO8015.htm


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> We should all have such magnificent "let downs" like the Callas/Gobbi live barber........I have never heard a Rosina with such commanding swagger and girlish charm, listen to Callas take over at 3:20 and cap it off with an electrifying climax at 5:09, where have you ever heard a performance like that before? Brava brava brava.............
> 
> Thanks to turnipoverlord for great live 56 Barber "Dunque io son"


In the live performance Callas views it more like a soprano showpiece and in the studio it is an ensemble. I read somewhere that the conductor of the live performance was so embarrassed about the performance that he couldn't look at the stage at all. Barbiere to me is really an opera where singer interaction and cooperation is the key. It's really an opera for all the singers and not just for example the soprano.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

I just received an email from Pablo Berruti in which he asked which performances would the subscribers like to see released next. I couldn't choose so I wrote that pretty much anything from the list  So perhaps now would be the time to start emailing him with your suggestions. I hope this means that we might see some releases in the near future. I can't wait!


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

I just can't wait for Divina records to release some of the Mexico Callas/Di Stefano performances. I just listened A te, o cara, amor talora and Vieni, fra questa braccia from the live performance. Simply amazing!











Imagine how amazing these will be in better sound.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgqN9u84LII#t=256.440747
This is a fun treasure. Caballe talks about her discussion with Callas about Tosca.


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## Tietjens Stolz (Jun 2, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgqN9u84LII#t=256.440747
> This is a fun treasure. Caballe talks about her discussion with Callas about Tosca.


This is a beautiful friendship - they have great love and respect for each other. 

Little wonder the most moving tribute to Callas from a fellow singer comes from Caballe:

"She opened a new door for us, for all the singers in the world, a door that had been closed. Behind it was sleeping not only great music but great idea of interpretation. She has given us the chance, those who follow her, to do things that were hardly possible before her. That I am compared with Callas is something I never dared to dream. It is not right. I am much smaller than Callas."

"Thank you, Maria, for come to us"


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Ever so slightly OTT, but since we are discussing Caballe, our new cleaning lady in the apartment building is a dead ringer for the Queen of the Pianissimi. Since it is not Kim Kardashian that she looks like I have decided to keep this insight to myself when I see her. I expect her to sing Casta Diva over the vacuum cleaner. If she looked like Callas in her Audrey Hepburn incarnation I would tell her


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Panorama said:


> This is a beautiful friendship - they have great love and respect for each other.
> 
> Little wonder the most moving tribute to Callas from a fellow singer comes from Caballe:
> 
> ...


Fellow artists and musicians always appreciate Callas greatly. The more one knows about music the more one can appreciate what Callas did. My only musical talent is listening to it, but I know greatness when I hear it. In a way not knowing everythnig is a blessing. This way I can marvel at every listen how she does everything and makes it sound so right and brings out the drama.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

as promised, I'll answer here 



Woodduck said:


> Oh please.
> Callas is not a "case study" in _anything_. She was a great singer who had a peculiar personal combination of physical/emotional problems which shortened her career. It has happened to many singers for a variety of reasons. It doesn't make them "case studies." And how did we get onto the subject of vocal longevity - or Maria Callas?


1) First off, Maria Callas was a shining example of borderline personality disorder, severe depression and probably bipolar. There is a reason why Joan was born only 2-3 years after Callas yet continued singing until 13 years after Callas died and outlived her by an additional 20 years on top of that. Joan was the epitome of groundedness, sticking to your strengths and precisely the opposite of the dramatic, self-destructive diva archetype. 
2) Regardless of fach, she sang dramatic rep way too early and shortened her prime by more than 10 years. this is a terrible idea for _any_ voice type, even the heaviest basso profundo or Wagnerian soprano.



> And what do you mean "we hardly need to get into specifics"? What need we get into?


Even you acknowledge the difference between dramatic soprano on one end and lyric soprano at the other. it's hardly a substantial step further to claim that a dramatic soprano and a coloratura soprano are very different voices.



> You keep trying to put singers into "fachs" - it seems to be some kind of obsession, but it is a distortion of reality. Reality does not respect your neat little categories. Callas was not a "dramatic soprano/mezzo." She was not a "coloratura." She was not a "spinto."


Fach was brought up by the OP, and I responded, again, in a very general manner.



> She was a soprano with a large voice and an extended range who developed a superb coloratura technique and could sing effectively such diverse roles as Armida, Lucia, Gilda, Leonora, Butterfly, Santuzza, Carmen, and Kundry. This versatility is universally acknowledged as one of her claims to fame - except, apparently, by you.


Acknowledging her versatility does not diminish my point that the core of her voice was most suited to the dramatic soprano/mezzo rep.



> This thread is not supposed to be about Maria Callas, but if you are going to keep expressing eccentric notions about her, someone is bound to try to correct you. You are perfectly entitled to disagree with the rest of the world about anything you please. But facts are facts - and those, mister, are facts.


The above is not a claim I contest, but it's also not a fact (though I'm sure that's hardly a discussion that would interest either of us).

PS: One of your previous posts was just as nuanced in addressing voice type as my own. please don't be a hypocrite.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I know only one person who heard Callas live... in a Chicago Tosca. This was likely past her prime, but he said that he had heard Nilsson and Callas' voice was bigger! Hmmmmm.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I know only one person who heard Callas live... in a Chicago Tosca.* This was likely past her prime*, but he said that he had heard Nilsson and Callas' voice was bigger! Hmmmmm.


La Callas was at her peak vocally and visually during 1954-55 Lyric Chicago seasons, she had completed weight loss and was sporting the divine blondie hair look, no recordings exist but all present proclaim the performances amazing (including fellow singers).........worth the price Lyric paid to have Maria's American debut there instead of the bumbling Rudolph Bing's offer at the MET ($2000 per opera vs $600 at MET)


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## Tietjens Stolz (Jun 2, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I know only one person who heard Callas live... in a Chicago Tosca. This was likely past her prime, but he said that he had heard Nilsson and Callas' voice was bigger! Hmmmmm.


Callas never sang Tosca in Chicago. If your friend was talking about a performance of Tosca Callas had given in the US it should be one of these:

1. Nov 1956 at Met

2. Feb/Mar 1958 at Met

3. Mar 1965 at Met

As for the 'hot discussion' between Balalaikaboy and Woodie we should just leave it to them to settle among themselves.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Panorama said:


> Callas never sang Tosca in Chicago. If your friend was talking about a performance of Tosca Callas had given in the US it should be one of these:
> 
> 1. Nov 1956 at Met
> 
> ...


https://www.lyricopera.org/about/production-archives/1954-1959-performance-and-cast-archive#1954

Pannie is right on, Maria was not performing Tosca at Chicago in 54 (it was Eleanor Steber), look at the massive talent Lyric Chicago was booking back then, Callas and Tebaldi both with own operas during season...........

*Here are the Chicago Lyric performances by Maria:*

54 Norma
54 Traviata
54 Lucia Lammermoor

55 Puritani
55 Trovatore
55 Madama Butterfly


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Panorama said:


> Callas never sang Tosca in Chicago. If your friend was talking about a performance of Tosca Callas had given in the US it should be one of these:
> 
> 1. Nov 1956 at Met
> 
> ...


Clearly I am out of my depths with La Divina's fans who know her repertoire and when she performed it generations later. I was likely mistaken about which performance of Tosca she sang, but I do remember him saying she had a bigger voice than Birgit, which is saying something.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> *Maria Callas was a shining example of borderline personality disorder, severe depression and probably bipolar. *There is a reason why Joan was born only 2-3 years after Callas yet continued singing until 13 years after Callas died and outlived her by an additional 20 years on top of that. *Joan was the epitome of groundedness,* sticking to your strengths and precisely the opposite of the dramatic, self-destructive diva archetype.
> 2) Regardless of fach, she sang dramatic rep way too early and shortened her prime by more than 10 years. this is a terrible idea for _any_ voice type, even the heaviest basso profundo or Wagnerian soprano.
> 
> Even you acknowledge *the difference between dramatic soprano on one end and lyric soprano* at the other. it's hardly a substantial step further to claim that *a dramatic soprano and a coloratura soprano are very different voices.
> ...


And where did you receive your degree in psychology? How many years have you been in practice? How many cases of borderline personality disorder have you treated?

Wouldn't it be wiser just to talk about singing? Or should I be careful what I wish for?

I've said this before, but perhaps I was too "nuanced," or not "nuanced" enough. Coloratura is not a "voice type." It is simply florid singing. Sopranos, mezzos, tenors, and baritones can all do it - more or less well, depending on the individual singer. In the era of bel canto, every singer, high or low, large-voiced or small, was expected to do it. Using "coloratura soprano" to designate a "type" of singer is a careless and mistaken use of language, regardless of how many people make the mistake. Different voices are better suited to music with different qualities, and merely for _convenience_ we designate the singer according to the qualities they convey best. This does not rely on any system of assigning singers to "fachs," and many, if not most, singers of any substantial accomplishment will exhibit some versatility and cross over conventional categories (as Caballe certainly did). Callas made nonsense of the categories: she, as it happens, could sing lyric, dramatic, and coloratura music equally well, bringing out all its qualities; her legato line was faultless, her declamatory power tremendous, and her coloratura extremely accurate. All of those skills were magnificently displayed in bel canto, and explain (along with her physical acting) why she was probably the greatest exponent of the role of Norma since Rosa Ponselle - who also, by the way, possessed all of those qualities as a singer. With singers like these - and like Lilli Lehmann, Johanna Gadski, and a number of others - "dramatic soprano" and "coloratura" are not "very different voices." Any attempt to pigeonhole them disrespects and diminishes their gifts and their achievement.

Was that _nuanced_ enough? I can probably be even more nuanced, but I suspect it would be a waste of time.

Greg Mitchell, who knows as much about singing as anyone on this forum (if not more) has bowed out of these conversations in disgust. Call me a masochist for continuing to invite charges of hypocrisy by amateur psychologists.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

as happy as I am to continue debating you, I feel like we're, once again, going in circles and need to agree to disagree on this. I like the fach system (I don't apply it nearly as rigidly as you seem to believe, but I do like the basic structure), you don't. if you feel like anything is extremely pressing or that you've been disrespected, feel free to address that (I'm not a fan of the "shut up and give me the last word" approach to conversation, so I won't start now), but overall.....do we really need to do this again?
PS: I don't have a degree in psychology, but I have a respectable working knowledge of it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

http://slippedisc.com/2016/05/eclusive-my-life-with-maria-callas/ Hot off the presses, a FABULOUS excerpt of a new memoir about Callas. Very revealing. It showed her warmth, professionalism, kindness to colleagues, and struggles as her voice failed her. Some days she work up an alto and the soprano voice would not come. You will enjoy it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> http://slippedisc.com/2016/05/eclusive-my-life-with-maria-callas/ Hot off the presses, a FABULOUS excerpt of a new memoir about Callas. Very revealing. It showed her warmth, professionalism, kindness to colleagues, and struggles as her voice failed her. Some days she work up an alto and the soprano voice would not come. You will enjoy it.


Some wonderful anecdotes. Not exactly the portrait of a "borderline personality" or a "self-destructive diva archetype," is it? And there are so many more such stories. They provokes serious thought about how easy it is to imagine we understand a human being on the basis of her public persona. We really ought to try to be better than the National Enquirer. Callas was a complex person. Every truly great artist is. Most of us will never have any idea what it is like to bear the weight of greatness.

I salute this woman for the weight she carried so magnificently, even unto the tragedy of her early death.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Some wonderful anecdotes. Not exactly the portrait of a "borderline personality" or a "self-destructive diva archetype," is it? And there are so many more such stories. They provokes serious thought about how easy it is to imagine we understand a human being on the basis of her public persona. We really ought to try to be better than the National Enquirer. Callas was a complex person. Every truly great artist is. Most of us will never have any idea what it is like to bear the weight of greatness.
> 
> I salute this woman for the weight she carried so magnificently, even unto the tragedy of her early death.


Just my two bits. Callas had busted her butt singing big roles to great acclaim since she was still a teen. With or without the changes in her vocal instrument, to say that she was a failure by becoming the number one mistress in the world to the wealthiest man in the world and ....is this in any way a failure??? To her fans.... YES, as she abandoned her singing career. .. But as a woman... no. She was a very very very complex woman and to expect her to aimed the vessel of her life only along traditional shipping routes in the ocean of life is unrealistic. To have been both the most famous opera singer and the most famous mistress in the world are quite a lot of unrelated accomplishments for one lifetime.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Just my two bits. Callas had busted her butt singing big roles to great acclaim since she was still a teen. With or without the changes in her vocal instrument, to say that she was a failure by becoming the number one mistress in the world to the wealthiest man in the world and ....is this in any way a failure??? To her fans.... YES, as she abandoned her singing career. .. But as a woman... no. She was a very very very complex woman and to expect her to aimed the vessel of her life only along traditional shipping routes in the ocean of life is unrealistic. To have been both the most famous opera singer and the most famous mistress in the world are quite a lot of unrelated accomplishments for one lifetime.


I'm not sure how great an achievement it was becoming Onassis's mistress. Being famous, beautiful and Greek seems to have done it - until Jackie-O took his fancy. Her art apparently meant nothing to him. I can understand her need to be treated as a woman rather than as a diva, and I'd hesitate to describe her blissful interlude as a "failure," but there's no question that his fickleness devastated her. We needn't downplay the tragic aspect of her extraordinary life, while being careful not to judge an amazing person whose shoes were not easy to walk in. Truly, no one else has come close to filling them.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Just my two bits. Callas had busted her butt singing big roles to great acclaim since she was still a teen. With or without the changes in her vocal instrument, to say that she was a failure by becoming the number one mistress in the world to the wealthiest man in the world and ....is this in any way a failure??? To her fans.... YES, as she abandoned her singing career. .. But as a woman... no. She was a very very very complex woman and to expect her to aimed the vessel of her life only along traditional shipping routes in the ocean of life is unrealistic. To have been both the most famous opera singer and the most famous mistress in the world are quite a lot of unrelated accomplishments for one lifetime.


Frankly I can't believe I'm reading this. A woman who leaves the husband who appeared to have genuinely loved her for an absolute toerag like Onassis, who used her as a trophy and then abandoned her for someone else who he reckoned a more glamorous catch would seem a huge mistake to me. A bad choice No matter that he was the wealthiest man n the world. For goodness sake any intelligent person knows that money itself doesn't alone bring happiness. My dear old dad never had any money but he made my mum the happiest woman on Earth because he really loved her and knew how to treat a woman.
The other thing we must remember is that Maria Callas was a singing actress. What she portrayed on stage was fiction, albeit brilliantly done. Unfortunately the success she had on the stage was not reflected in her personal life. To me she was a highly successful artist but sadly appears to have been far less successful as a woman. When asked by Zeferelli why she had more or less abandoned her singing career for Onassis she said " I have been trying to fulfill my life as a woman." Sadly for her it was a very bad choice.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

We must remember about Onassis that even though he was ugly as a toad, Onassis was positively magnetic to members of both sexes with tremendous sex appeal... supposedly on the level of Brad Pitt today, hard as it is to believe. Those fires had only been kindled onstage and he was able to light them for her in her personal life. He made her feel like she was a woman. I did not say she was successful in love. But she held the attention of this incredibly sexy man who was the Bill Gates of her day as far as wealth goes. This affair lasted for many years till he abandoned her. She gained almost more notoriety in her day as Onassis' mistress than as an opera diva. This was not an insignificant part of her life. Many great, great artists have unbalanced lives. It is often the propelling drives of these neurotic energies that can make them so single minded and riveting onstage. This need to excel is often a need to gain recognition from others that is often the result of something which was thrown off balance in their formative years. In her eyes gaining the attention of Onassis became more important to her than her struggling career. I am not a specialist on Maria, nor as passionate about her as some of you are, but don't think I can pass judgement on her for making the decisions she did . If she were the stable sort like Joan Sutherland who had a long, long career and stable relationship she had with Richard, would she had have been able to incite the type of passion 60 odd years later in so many millions of fans. In my opinion, no. The only current celebrity I would say had a similar trajectory was Princess Diana who was married to the ultimate bachelor, and became a queen in the hearts of millions, so to speak,and left the loveless marriage for affairs of love, which were more important to her than her role as the Princess of England's Heir to the throne. Did we love Diana because she was successful in love.NO. We loved her because of that similar spark that Callas had that incited deep passions in out heart about her. A normal, stable person would not have been able to have been so interesting to so many in my opinion. Enough of my rambling thoughts about the great Callas.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> We must remember about Onassis that even though he was ugly as a toad, Onassis was positively magnetic to members of both sexes with tremendous sex appeal... supposedly on the level of Brad Pitt today, hard as it is to believe. Those fires had only been kindled onstage and he was able to light them for her in her personal life. He made her feel like she was a woman. I did not say she was successful in love. But she held the attention of this incredibly sexy man who was the Bill Gates of her day as far as wealth goes. This affair lasted for many years till he abandoned her. She gained almost more notoriety in her day as Onassis' mistress than as an opera diva. This was not an insignificant part of her life. Many great, great artists have unbalanced lives. It is often the propelling drives of these neurotic energies that can make them so single minded and riveting onstage. This need to excel is often a need to gain recognition from others that is often the result of something which was thrown off balance in their formative years. In her eyes gaining the attention of Onassis became more important to her than her struggling career. I am not a specialist on Maria, nor as passionate about her as some of you are, but don't think I can pass judgement on her for making the decisions she did . If she were the stable sort like Joan Sutherland who had a long, long career and stable relationship she had with Richard, would she had have been able to incite the type of passion 60 odd years later in so many millions of fans. In my opinion, no. The only current celebrity I would say had a similar trajectory was Princess Diana who was married to the ultimate bachelor, and became a queen in the hearts of millions, so to speak,and left the loveless marriage for affairs of love, which were more important to her than her role as the Princess of England's Heir to the throne. Did we love Diana because she was successful in love.NO. We loved her because of that similar spark that Callas had that incited deep passions in out heart about her. A normal, stable person would not have been able to have been so interesting to so many in my opinion. Enough of my rambling thoughts about the great Callas.


Maria was sadly not successful in love. Onassis has been described as a 'sex machine' who used women for his own purposes. Of course, he had a magnetic attraction for them but it was probably based around sex rather than true love, at least as I define love.
Maria had a very troubled childhood and a pushy mother. Probably that fuelled her incredible ambition to succeed as an artist. Sadly, however, as you say she was unbalanced but she is only one of myriad great artists who suffer from this. Gould, Horowitz, et al might also be mentioned in the same breath.
I would dispute, btw, that Diana was successful in love. She actually had many affairs and didn't settle down with any of them. That does not strike me as success. I wonder if Diana would have been the queen of so many hearts if she'd have looked like Camilla. I guess not. Or Callas if she hadn't have slimmed? I guess not. People are fooled by glamour!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Maria was sadly not successful in love. Onassis has been described as a 'sex machine' who used women for his own purposes. Of course, he had a magnetic attraction for them but it was probably based around sex rather than true love, at least as I define love.
> Maria had a very troubled childhood and a pushy mother. Probably that fuelled her incredible ambition to succeed as an artist. Sadly, however, as you say she was unbalanced but she is only one of myriad great artists who suffer from this. Gould, Horowitz, et al might also be mentioned in the same breath.
> I would dispute, btw, that Diana was successful in love. She actually had many affairs and didn't settle down with any of them. That does not strike me as success. I wonder if Diana would have been the queen of so many hearts if she'd have looked like Camilla. I guess not. Or Callas if she hadn't have slimmed? I guess not. People are fooled by glamour!


Great comments. Let me say this differently. Diana had the fairy tale wedding to end all fairy tale weddings. She gave birth to Wills and Harry. On that level ( from point of view of a lot of people) her marriage had certain significant successes. From the outside, becoming the Princess to Charles was a MAJOR achievement for a woman. She would not have had other lovers if Charles was not involved with Camilla, IMHO. Diana, and Maria's, great beauty certainly helped advance them in the public eye. With Diana, I think it was her humanitarian interests and her genius at drawing attention to ignored causes, which propelled her to being a superstar and a world figure. Callas's vehicle was the stage and the life she infused into a stodgy art form. Many will never think of certain important operas the same way again after Callas. Despite her troubled life, or because of it, Callas' star has forever changed the constellations of the operatic heavens, whether you love her or not.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

For those of you in London 
http://http://theartnewspaper.com/news/hayward-gallery-moves-into-a-temporary-home-across-the-thames-as-its-southbank-base-is-overhauled/


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> For those of you in London
> http://http://theartnewspaper.com/news/hayward-gallery-moves-into-a-temporary-home-across-the-thames-as-its-southbank-base-is-overhauled/


That link doesn't seem to work. Try this one.

http://theartnewspaper.com/news/hayward-gallery-moves-into-a-temporary-home-across-the-thames-as-its-southbank-base-is-overhauled/


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> From the outside, becoming the Princess to Charles was a MAJOR achievement for a woman.


Funniest thing I've read in ages. Strip away the birth into the aristocracy (and the concomitant wealth, status and privileges that this still brings) and you seriously suggest that Charles Windsor was an attractive proposition?

well, it takes all sorts, I suppose!


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

GregMitchell said:


> That link doesn't seem to work. Try this one.
> 
> http://theartnewspaper.com/news/hay...e-thames-as-its-southbank-base-is-overhauled/


That's a great aria (suicidio from la gioconda) to showcase Callas vocal skills, let us know if you get to see the hologram Maria in person......

More virtual Callas media projects, hopefully more impressive than our darling draculette's "tagteam" video to promote her Callas tribute album


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> That's a great aria (suicidio from la gioconda) to showcase Callas vocal skills, let us know if you get to see the hologram Maria in person......
> 
> More virtual Callas media projects, hopefully more impressive than our darling draculette's "tagteam" video to promote her Callas tribute album


A bit harsh DA. I quite enjoyed that although Callas won it by a mile. Much better grasp of the feel of the aria. I have come to realise that my problem is not with Callas, who I think is immense, but it is with the bulk of her repertoire which I'm afraid just doesn't appeal to me. But I'm content with the operas I do like her in and the compilations that feature her.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> A bit harsh DA. I quite enjoyed that although Callas won it by a mile. Much better grasp of the feel of the aria. I have come to realise that my problem is not with Callas, who I think is immense, but it is with the bulk of her repertoire which I'm afraid just doesn't appeal to me. But I'm content with the operas I do like her in and the compilations that feature her.


I do like Gheorghiu singing (and like her in general) but I was hoping her video team could do something more "creative" than just sing with video playing behind her......like the short scences which inserts her B/W in same screen as Maria like they are performing together, if only could interact in some way like they can see each other, look over to acknowledge Maria or reach out to touch her shoulder.......


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> That's a great aria (suicidio from la gioconda) to showcase Callas vocal skills, let us know if you get to see the hologram Maria in person......
> 
> More virtual Callas media projects, hopefully more impressive than *our darling draculette's "tagteam*" video to promote her Callas tribute album


To call someone that, DA, I don't think speaks a very good spirit. I am an admirer of Callas and have quite a number of recordings but when I see remarks like that by her ardent admirers I begin to wonder! Even if no-one can match Callas, in your opinion, is it right to call another singer a 'draculette'?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Funniest thing I've read in ages. Strip away the birth into the aristocracy (and the concomitant wealth, status and privileges that this still brings) and you seriously suggest that Charles Windsor was an attractive proposition?
> 
> well, it takes all sorts, I suppose!


Well, I can see your point of view. But marrying the most famous prince in the world does have a certain clout in some circles. Obviously not yours. He does have palaces that make Bill Gates pad look middle class, and her sons were automatically princes of the realm. How many women do you know who marry into such circles??? For many women this is the stuff of fantasy.... not mine.... but for many. I admire Charles. He has done a lot for many causes that matter to me. His son's also think highly of him apparently, so he wasn't a total failure.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

DavidA said:


> To call someone that, DA, I don't think speaks a very good spirit. I am an admirer of Callas and have quite a number of recordings but when I see remarks like that by her ardent admirers I begin to wonder! Even if no-one can match Callas, in your opinion, is it right to call another singer a 'draculette'?


"darling draculette" is just a fun nickname given to Angela since she was born in Romania (home of Transylvania) if you do a google search for draculette you will see pictures of Angela.......

Again I thought I explained above that I was making no comment on Angela's singing which I like, just wanted more creativity of her video team......we are trying to have some fun here David


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> "darling draculette" is just a fun nickname given to Angela since she was born in Romania (home of Transylvania) if you do a google search for draculette you will see pictures of Angela.......
> 
> Again I thought I explained above that I was making no comment on Angela's singing which I like, just wanted more creativity of her video team......we are trying to have some fun here David


Point taken! Apologies that I got the wrong end of the stick!


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

And just to think I hated Opera.... but then came Maria Callas. Just two excerpts from her Dallas rehearsals where the voice is strong, stable, and great voice coloring. I just can't fathom how anyone would dispute that her prime ended squarely in 1955 where we have her giving us the greatest recorded moment in Opera history of sustaining a high soprano E6 and doing a perfectly in tune diminuendo and an even more supernatural 2 octave chromatic scale drop in one breath! Then we also have those wonderfully crafted Greek-esque Medeas from '59-'62, Her very last readings of Lady Macbeth (where her sotto voce is at it's highest peak, the demonic lady Macbeth then fades away with a perfectly in tune PP Db6 on "Andiam!") And who could of course forget that Gioconda? Though the voice doesn't have the extra fat of the Cetra '52 recording, the lower notes are actually in better shape and more carefully crafted than in the '52 recording and shows a much better and more stable high B5.

Ethereal.... is the only word to describe "La Divina", Soprano Ultima Assoluta.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Given how much I enjoy Maria Callas, it's surprising I've never said much positive about her on this forum up until this point. For starters, her the way she attacks certain notes is straight up _ferocious_. no other singer has been able to emulate that since (the only one who has come close is Marisa Galvany, but she lacks the simultaneous finesse).


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