# Do you like Zemlinsky and Schreker



## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I love them...Zemlinksy never got to the dodecaphonic stage as his brother in law (Schönberg)...Schreker almost...But they were expressionist both of them, both composed amazing operas.


To be folllowed by you

Martin Pitchon


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I've yet to be able to appreciate Schoenberg (while I quite like what I've heard of Berg and Webern?)... but I love Schreker and Zemlinsky (and Korngold, and Richard Strauss and all those decadent Viennese)


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I haven't listened to that much of either. I borrowed a disc of a chamber symphony by Schreker from the library but only listened to it once. It seemed interesting. & I've got a Naxos recording of Zemlinsky's _Sinfonietta _(which I really like) and _The Mermaid_ (which is a bit too filmic for my tastes). I also borrowed his _Lyric Symphony_ and couldn't make head nor tail of it (I found it a bit of a drag, to be quite honest, but that was before I began getting into song cycles, so my opinion may be much different if I revisited it now). I think they both sound a bit like Mahler, but perhaps a bit more astringent. They can be seen as transitional composers between late Romanticism and early Modernism/atonality. It was a pity for them both that they both came to their maturity around the rise of the odious Third Reich.

In short, I haven't heard that much of their music, and what I have heard warrants me returning to some of their stuff, which is well represented in my local library system...


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Did someone say Shrek?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Haven't heard anything by Schreker but there are a few works by Zemlinsky I very much like - especially his four string quartets, the Lyric Symphony and the dramatically powerful operas Eine florentinische Tragodie, Der Konig Kandaules and Der Zwerg.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I've liked everything I've heard from Zemlinsky so far, and I'm interested in hearing more. (I wish Schoenberg would have composed like him for a little longer.) I've shied away from his quartets, though, because I read an article that said they're trying too hard to be like Brahms but come up short. But I'll listen to any opinions to the contrary. 

Schreker, I haven't heard a thing from him.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I've yet to be able to appreciate Schoenberg.


Have you heard his Pelleas und Melisande? It has its flaws, but it's Zemlinsky-esque.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

elgars ghost said:


> Haven't heard anything by Schreker but there are a few works by Zemlinsky I very much like - especially his four string quartets, the Lyric Symphony and the dramatically powerful operas Eine florentinische Tragodie, Der Konig Kandaules and Der Zwerg.


I love 'em both. A good place to start with Schreker is the opera _Der ferne Klang_.


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

As an youth, Zemlinsky was very close to Brahms; withal, his Op. 3 *Clarinet Trio* and Op. 4 *String Quartet* are very Brahmsian--and hence I relish them both.

Zem's *Lyric Symphony* and opera *A Florentine Tragedy* are curious and don't wear out their welcome.

Really wonderful disc:

http://www.amazon.com/Walter-Rabl-Q...=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1290096699&sr=1-6

See too:

http://www.amazon.com/ZEMLINSKY-FUC..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=00J6MV4NFGGZH6N2TZM0


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Delicious Manager said:


> I love 'em both. A good place to start with Schreker is the opera _Der ferne Klang_.


I'm checking out YouTube. I like the music. I wish they wouldn't sing over it. Of course, that's my general problem with opera. 

Does anyone have a recommendation of a recording of his music that is nonopera?


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Schreker, Zemlinsky*

Well...Have you heard a lot of symphonies of Wagner?...

Well, Let me tell you that Schreker and Zemlinsky are mainly known by their operas.

They are great!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_von_Zemlinsky
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Schreker

If you want to have an idea about Schreker masterpieces...listen to this!











Have a great day!

MartinPitchon:tiphat:


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> If you want to have an idea about Schreker masterpieces...listen to this!


Thanks! Love those vagrant chords.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Manxfeeder said:


> I've shied away from his quartets, though, because I read an article that said they're trying too hard to be like Brahms but come up short. But I'll listen to any opinions to the contrary.
> 
> Not so, Manxfeeder - although the early (official) first quartet from 1896 is by virtue of its place in time a late Romantic work I can't hear too much of Brahms in it - as late 19th century quartets go it's quite gritty. The other three were composed between 1914 and 1936 are understandably more modern in style - the last two being pretty much, if not completely, atonal. Although by inclination a Romantic composer Zemlinsky was more than capable of throwing a few curveballs.
> 
> ...


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm checking out YouTube. I like the music. I wish they wouldn't sing over it. Of course, that's my general problem with opera.
> 
> Does anyone have a recommendation of a recording of his music that is nonopera?


OK, check out his Ballet-Pantomime _Der Geburtstag der Infantin_. Lovely stuff! And no annoying singers!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Delicious Manager said:


> OK, check out his Ballet-Pantomime _Der Geburtstag der Infantin_. Lovely stuff! And no annoying singers!


Great! Sounds like it's just up my alley.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> These quartets really are worth investigating as Zemlinsky composed hardly any other chamber works during his maturity.


Do you have a preferred recording? From what I've seen, I'd like to get the Lasalle Quartet because they're cheaper, but the Artis Quartet looks to me like a better all-around recording.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Well...Personally I would say*

I don't like to compare Brahms with anyone of these guys...The Zemlinsky's quartets are quite modern...I think that mainly these guys were "OPERA" guys...and their leader are terrific. You have a two CDs leader by Schreker...a bit like Hugo Wolf (if you know him)

http://www.amazon.com/Schreker-Comp...r_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1290104400&sr=1-13

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Song...r_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1290104439&sr=1-10

For those who don't like opera and want to start with Zemlinsky:














Have a nice day!

:tiphat:


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Manxfeeder said:


> Do you have a preferred recording? From what I've seen, I'd like to get the Lasalle Quartet because they're cheaper, but the Artis Quartet looks to me like a better all-around recording.


To be honest, I can't compare as I've only ever heard the Artis Quartet recordings on Nimbus (still available to buy new which surprises me as I thought the label was going/had gone under). They aren't the cheapest around so I would definitely seek a second opinion.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Music without people singing...

Schreker, a ballet:

http://www.amazon.com/Geburtstag-In...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1290138620&sr=1-1

I do have the complete ballet if you can get it.

It' called the birthday of the Infanta by Oscar Wilde....Zemlinsky wrote an opera about the same subject: the dwarf.

http://www.amazon.com/Geburtstag-In...=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1290138839&sr=1-5

This is the complete ballet! I found it! You can listen often in amazon.com

Here you have the chamber symphony, wonderful indeed (Schreker)


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I do have the complete ballet if you can get it.


Thanks for the heads-up.

I love the sound that Rattle gets here. I'm guessing he didn't commit that to disc, unfortunately.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*I think that many times I have posted stuff it gets lost...*

http://www.amazon.com/Geburtstag-In...=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1290198357&sr=1-5

is a ballet called the birthday of the infanta based on Oscar Wilde, you van even listen to some examples, the ballet is very nice.

Martin Pitchon

I hope my messae won't be lost this time.

:tiphat:


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> is a ballet called the birthday of the infanta based on Oscar Wilde, you van even listen to some examples, the ballet is very nice.


Just from the clips, I like Zemlinsky's version even better than Schreker's. Thanks.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Zemlinsky's version better than what????

Semlinsky didn't compose a ballet about the infanta but the opera the dwarf, very cruel indeed...because he was suffering the fact that Alma left him to marry Gustav Mahler.










But if you are the one who doesn<t like opera go with Schreker<s ballet.

:tiphat:

Martin Pitchon


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Zemlinsky's version better than what????
> 
> But if you are the one who doesn<t like opera go with Schreker<s ballet.


Sorry for being vague. Comparing the two, I liked the sound clips on Amazon from Zemlinsky better than the sound clips from Schrecker's ballet. But I liked them both.

Yeah, I've been trying to like opera for a couple years and have even connected with a few (Wozzeck, Moses und Aron, Die Todt Stadt, Padmavati, Mozart's big three). I'm hoping one day it will all come together and I'll end up whistling Verdi.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I saw this two-CD compilation on Amazon. Does anyone have thoughts on if this is worth exploring?

http://www.amazon.com/20th-Century-Classics-Schreker-Symphony/dp/B003D0ZNS8


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Sorry for being vague. Comparing the two, I liked the sound clips on Amazon from Zemlinsky better than the sound clips from Schrecker's ballet. But I liked them both. 

Yeah, I've been trying to like opera for a couple years and have even connected with a few (Wozzeck, Moses und Aron, Die Todt Stadt, Padmavati, Mozart's big three). I'm hoping one day it will all come together and I'll end up whistling Verdi. 
======================================================
Verdi? LOL. I don't like Verdi anymore...I don't like PASTA...But I love Puccini! Puccini is...lovely.

LOL

Traviata is the opera I haste the most!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

My very frist opera when I was 6 years old was La Bohème, Puccini, it is nice, romantic... a bit stupid.

LOL but nice. Turandot is much better....Puccini is nice to start....
I like human voice, it is the first intrument the human been got! Better when you understand the words...Try having subtitles...a DVD could be an excellent alternative.

Martin


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> My very frist opera when I was 6 years old was La Bohème, Puccini, it is nice, romantic... a bit stupid.
> 
> LOL but nice. Turandot is much better....Puccini is nice to start....
> I like human voice, it is the first intrument the human been got! Better when you understand the words...Try having subtitles...a DVD could be an excellent alternative.
> ...


Yeah, what I don't like about a lot of operas in general is the storyline. And I am a little concerned that I'm attracted to the darker ones like Wozzeck.

I agree about DVDs with subtitles; that's how I got into Mozart's operas. Of course, I have Rigoletto on DVD and shut it off halfway because I got bored.

I actually have Turandot on CD; I'll have to give it another spin.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Wozzeck? (Woyzeck)*

EXCELLENT CHOICE. I love Wozzeck...I prefer Lulu....LOL

A ***** who kills a man and she is killed by Jack the ripper...what a sweet story....LOL But the music is awesome....nontheless dodecaphonic, by my "best friend " Alban Berg.

But is always better starting with simpler stuff.... A friendly suggestion

:tiphat:

Martin Pitchon


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I saw this two-CD compilation on Amazon. Does anyone have thoughts on if this is worth exploring?

http://www.amazon.com/20th-Century-C.../dp/B003D0ZNS8

THis is a "not good choice" Try buying a whole Zemlinsky CD. It will be much better.

Just a suggestion.

Martin


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I saw this two-CD compilation on Amazon. Does anyone have thoughts on if this is worth exploring?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/20th-Century-C.../dp/B003D0ZNS8
> 
> ...


I'm always open to suggestions.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

If it is you first Zemlinsky I'd suggest this beautiful CD.

http://www.amazon.com/Alexander-Zem...r_1_12?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1291828179&sr=1-12

Martin


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> If it is you first Zemlinsky I'd suggest this beautiful CD.
> [/url]
> 
> Martin


Got it. Love it.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

http://www.amazon.com/Zemlinsky-Cel...=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1291836278&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Zemlinsky-Cel...=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1291836278&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Lyric-Symphon...r_1_17?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1291836381&sr=1-17

In the last one you have some feeling about his wonderful operas...The guy composed beautiful operas (if oyu like this genre).

Best regards.

Martin


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> In the last one you have some feeling about his wonderful operas...The guy composed beautiful operas (if oyu like this genre).
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Martin


Thanks for the reference. I have the Lyric Symphony on another recording, but this one has interesting fillups.

You need to post a comment on the Amazon site to counter that guy who called it "Wagnerian Bombast.".


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Well, you know there is always people unhappy...I haven't noticed this comment but Amazon is not a site for arguing...

Do you like opera? If you do, don't waste more time and go for the Zemlinsky MAIN DISH.

I answered something to the guy.

Martin Pitchon


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I answered something to the guy.
> 
> Martin Pitchon


I haven't seen it up yet, but go get him! I've read his reviews, and he's pretty consistently negative.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Let's see... I've heard The Mermaid, very nice tone poem, 2nd Symphony, although don't remember anything from it, and then there's the 4th string quartet. I'm not a chamber music fan, but that quartet actually struck unlike other chamber works. The contrast between dissonance and consonance was very profound to me, I love music that makes those kinds of contrasts.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Zemlinsky has wonderful music...

For smal budgets:

http://www.amazon.com/Zemlinsky-Pia...r_1_19?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1291929422&sr=1-19 (piano pieces) you can even listen before buying.

A nice cello sonata

http://www.amazon.com/Zemlinsky-Cel...r_1_35?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1291929555&sr=1-35 (you can listen to samples again)

Lieder

Many choral works and opera!

Best

Martin


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Any thoughts on Zemlinsky's symphony? Is it worth exploring or too much like Brahms?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Manxfeeder;129960 said:


> Any thoughts on Zemlinsky's symphony? Is it worth exploring or too much like Brahms?


Hi, M. If you are referring to his early days he actually wrote two - both from 1897 when he was about 25/26. He didn't issue an opus number to either so perhaps he wanted it known that they were from his student years. They are fairly standard four-movement works in a typical mid-late-19th century Romantic style which reveal his grasp of orchestral technique but not surprisingly there is relatively little of his own personality stamped on them. They're listenable but hardly essential if we take into account the goodies that began to emerge a few years later.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> [QUOTE=Manxfeeder;129960]They're listenable but hardly essential if we take into account the goodies that began to emerge a few years later.




Thank you.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

> Hi, M. If you are referring to his early days he actually wrote two - both from 1897 when he was about 25/26. He didn't issue an opus number to either so perhaps he wanted it known that they were from his student years. They are fairly standard four-movement works in a typical mid-late-19th century Romantic style which reveal his grasp of orchestral technique but not surprisingly there is relatively little of his own personality stamped on them. They're listenable but hardly essential if we take into account the goodies that began to emerge a few years later.


Standard but with wonderful music...you can detect that this guy is going to become "somebody"...I insist, try his operas...Start by his very first, Sarema, his friend Mahler composed the Overture because he asked him, the result, a wonderful first opera...

Go here:

http://www.amazon.com/Sarema-Zemlin...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1293047016&sr=1-1

Sorry they have no examples...wait...but here they do have:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=digital-music&field-keywords=sarema

Martin


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Thanks for the URLs. I'm listening.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

willkomenn

Martin


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Delicious Manager said:


> I love 'em both. A good place to start with Schreker is the opera _Der ferne Klang_.


It took me a month, but I just found Der Ferne Klang on sale, so I'm diving in.

Do I need to pay attention to the words? There is no English libretto provided, but so far I'm enjoying the music. Not quite atonal but still on the brink. And lovely orchestration.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

The distant sound...You don't have the story?

http://arts.jrank.org/pages/9281/Ferne-Klang-Der-(‘The-Distant-Sound’).html

But which version did you buy? A bad version is dangerous...You have a Naxos version, bad, believe me.
Buy cheap, buy twice.

The best is Capriccio: http://arts.jrank.org/pages/9281/Ferne-Klang-Der-(‘The-Distant-Sound’).html

second choice:

http://www.amazon.com/SCHREKER-Fern...=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1293155535&sr=1-3

Naxos: last choice, I had it and I had to buy another one...

Martin

Martin


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Yes.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> second choice:


At least I have your second choice, on Marco Polo. The Capriccio recording does sound nice, but rats; it's $59 used.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Art Rock said:


> Yes.


Your link goes to Zemlinsky's Mermaid, which I do appreciate your review of Zemlinsky. Did I go to the right place?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Sure. The question was Do you like Zemlinsky and Schreker.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Art Rock said:


> Sure. The question was Do you like Zemlinsky and Schreker.


Thanks. Sorry; I'm running a little slow this morning.


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

I have Zemlinsky's string quartets, but have never really listened to them. They're very interesting to say the least though.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Zemlinsky's quartet are a bit hermetic...try his operas...Start by his first: Salema.
For the distant sound, Marco Polo is ok.


Martin


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Zemlinsky's quartet are a bit hermetic...try his operas...Start by his first: Salema.
> For the distant sound, Marco Polo is ok.
> 
> Martin


Not a fan of opera, so I'm passing on that. Thanks though.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

OK...I think...I THINK that Schreker and Zemlinsky were excellent in opera...Not liking opera limits yourself a bit.

You have anyhow a big choice.

If we are speaking about Zemlinsky:

in http://www.universaledition.com/composers-and-works/composer/796/worklist/?sort=0#page=0 you have a list. He liked very much Human voice...then:

His symphonies (nice and simple)
His quartets (more complcated)
Music with people singing....

Schreker: more orchestral music, I guess.

Martin


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## Oakey (Nov 19, 2017)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> The distant sound...You don't have the story?
> 
> http://arts.jrank.org/pages/9281/Ferne-Klang-Der-(‘The-Distant-Sound’).html
> 
> ...


Just discovered this opera, Der Ferne Klang, bought the Naxos 2-disc set new for €2.99 on jpc
It gets great reviews, with some favouring the Naxos set in terms of instrumentation to the Capriccio one. See eg http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/dec00/SCHREKER_Der_Ferne_Klang.htm

The Naxos set is just a re-release of the Marco Polo one by the way :lol: Exactly the same. So if you like the second one and hate the first it's not due to objective standards, just that you prefer a blue cover over a white one


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Schreker's Der Schatzgraber on Challenge Classics is an excellent opera. I have Der Ferne Klang on Capriccio.


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