# Wagner for people who don't like Wagner



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

One of the most oft-repeated quotes about Wagner seems to be Woody Allen's "I can't listen to that much Wagner, ya know? I start to get the urge to conquer Poland." This is a thread to post clips or make suggestions for Wagner's music that doesn't quite fit the "aggressively German" stereotype Wagner has that seems to turn quite a few people off, and perhaps prove to people that there is more to Wagner than _Ride of the Valkyries_.

I'll begin with this beautiful and quite subdued quintet from _Meistersinger_, a tender moment that Youtube commenter "BWGrantBarnes" describes wonderfully:

_"One of the great moments of personal freedom in all of opera, where the five participants overcome their individual histories of frustration, hurt and bitterness with themselves and each other and reach the perfect understanding of themselves and each other. It is a moment where grace﻿ is achieved and given form, both in the narrative and the music."_

The excerpt of interest begins at around 3:50.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I guess the obvious pick here is the Liebestod from T&I


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

_Siegfried Idyll._ There are different versions, incl. one for full orchestra but also chamber orchestra, etc.

_Prelude_ to _Lohengrin_, it's quite lyrical. Overall, I remember this opera as being less in your face dramatic, more lyrical, but it's been a while since I've heard it.

I agree with the examples given above.

Another possible one is _Wesendock Lieder_, though it's been ages since I've heard it, I can't remember. This is one I actually want to get on disc at some stage, or at least hear on youtube whenever I get headspace, etc. I'm topped out with music at the moment, a bit of a glut...


----------



## Beethovenrox (Dec 10, 2011)

Who doesn't like Wagner?????


----------



## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

Beethovenrox said:


> Who doesn't like Wagner?????


Hans von Bulow, for one.


----------



## Beethovenrox (Dec 10, 2011)

eorrific said:


> Hans von Bulow, for one.


Who's that?


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

The only Wagner I can listen to without pain and/or disgust is the quintet (instrumental, that is) - which is not a 'defining work'.


----------



## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

Sid James said:


> _Siegfried Idyll._ There are different versions, incl. one for full orchestra but also chamber orchestra, etc.
> 
> _Prelude_ to _Lohengrin_, it's quite lyrical. Overall, I remember this opera as being less in your face dramatic, more lyrical, but it's been a while since I've heard it.
> 
> I agree with the examples given above.


Which prelude? I'm partial to the prelude to Act III myself...

And let's not forget this little gem:


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^ I meant the prelude to act I, I think the prelude to act III is more like a fanfare. But I suppose they are both good in terms of what I like by him, can listen to without too much being put off, etc...


----------



## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

Wagner is very good until the singing starts!


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Well there are things like Leopold Stokowski's transcriptions of Wagner's music, purely orchestral (there's a disc on Naxos, I think, I've seen it), but Couchie is thinking of Wagner originals, or that's how it seems to me...


----------



## tannhaeuser (Nov 7, 2011)

Working through the times...

Rienzi
- Overture

Der fliegende Holländer
- Overture

Tannhäuser
- Overture
- Pilgrims' Chorus
- O du mein holder Abendstern

Lohengrin
- Prelude to Act I
- Prelude to Act III

Meistersingers
- Prelude

Tristan und Isolde
- Prelude to Act I
- Liebestod

Das Rheingold
- Prelude to Act I
- The part between Acts III and IV where the anvils play

Die Walküre
- Prelude to Act III (of course)
- Prelude to Act I
- Magic Fire

Siegfried
- Winterstürme wichem den wonnemond

Götterdämmerung
- Trauermusik
- Immolation scene

Parsifal
- Good Friday Music

Wesendonck Lieder

Siegfried Idyll

Wagner really is easier without the singing.


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I absolutely adore Wagner's overtures and preludes - basically his orchestral music. I have not heard much of his operas. Recently I heard T&I which has wonderfully beautiful music (and curiously almost the absence of plot - not that it matters). I responded much less positively to the singing than the music alone. That says nothing about Wagner of course. Opera is not (yet?) my thing. I did love the love duet in the second act. 

Couchie: the Meistersingers post was wonderful. I listened to more of the Meistersingers after hearing that. My daughter loves the Ring so I'm sure I will eventually listen to all or most of that. I may move Wagner from 8 on my list to 4 or 5 yet. Maybe even higher.


----------



## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

eorrific said:


> Beethovenrox said:
> 
> 
> > Who doesn't like Wagner?????
> ...


The same Hans von Bulow who conducted the premieres of _Tristan_ and _Meistersinger_?


----------



## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

Webernite said:


> The same Hans von Bulow who conducted the premieres of _Tristan_ and _Meistersinger_?


And the same von Bulow who`s wife, Cosima, left him for Wagner, who was shagging her while her then-husband was prepping Tristan! Cosima was Liszt`s (illegitimate) daughter


----------



## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Webernite said:


> The same Hans von Bulow who conducted the premieres of _Tristan_ and _Meistersinger_?


Well, he had plenty of reasons not to like him. After all, Wagner did steal his wife.


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

tannhaeuser said:


> Working through the times...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


The intention of this thread was for works that aren't the characteristic Wagnerian 'Let's go invade Poland' germanic heaviness, so stuff like the Walküre preludes and Holländer overture are definitely out.

Also, where "the anvils play" is during the 'Descent into Nibelheim' sequence between SCENES TWO and THREE, not "Acts" 3 and 4... MY GOD, GET IT RIGHT.


----------



## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

3;21-end. The best ending to any piece of music ever?


----------



## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

jalex said:


> 3;21-end. The best ending to any piece of music ever?


In my opinion, yes, with the only close competitors being Le Nozze di Figaro, Tristan und Isolde, and Gotterdammerung.

I've been watching Tannhäuser for the first time, and am surprised at how accessible it is. It seems that the easiest of Wagner's operas to start out by far are Lohengrin, Tannhäuser, and Die Meistersinger. Tristan can drag on for those who aren't immediately attracted to its rapturous music, and the Ring... remains the Ring. One of the pieces of music that can never be completely understood, but keeps peeling away as one journeys to the very heart of it.

The Davis production of Tannhauser is very good - here is one of the most accessible parts, the famous Grand march and chorus from the second act (begins at 3:29):






Other famous excerpts include the Overture, Venusburg Music, Pilgrim's Chorus, and Wolfram's aria "O Du, Mein Holder Abendstern".


----------



## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)




----------



## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Aksel said:


> Well, he had plenty of reasons not to like him. After all, Wagner did steal his wife.


...

:tiphat:


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

You're dreaming, of course - mere wishful thinking.


----------



## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

Beethovenrox said:


> Who doesn't like Wagner?????


For a start Me Me Me


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> One of the most oft-repeated quotes about Wagner seems to be Woody Allen's "I can't listen to that much Wagner, ya know? I start to get the urge to conquer Poland." This is a thread to post clips or make suggestions for Wagner's music that doesn't quite fit the "aggressively German" stereotype Wagner has that seems to turn quite a few people off, and perhaps prove to people that there is more to Wagner than _Ride of the Valkyries_.
> 
> I'll begin with this beautiful and quite subdued quintet from _Meistersinger_, a tender moment that Youtube commenter "BWGrantBarnes" describes wonderfully:
> 
> ...


The problem with Wagner is that it is mostly written against a large orchestra so that singers have to sing in an aggressive German fashion to be heard.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Wagner for people who like Beethoven


----------



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Funnily enough that incident did nothing to diminish von Bulow's admiration and he accepted the situation quite happily!


----------



## RolandBuck (Feb 8, 2013)

I believe that it was Mark Twain that said that Wagner's music is a lot better than it sounds.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Why does Wagner's music cause you to react with "pain and disgust"? Is it the man's glaring personal faults or his Nazi associations ? All that baggage shouldn't blind you to the greatness of his music and his dramatic genius .


----------



## RolandBuck (Feb 8, 2013)

presto said:


> Wagner is very good until the singing starts!


RIGHT ON!! I LOVE the instrumental parts of his operas. The overtures and the instrumental interludes. My introduction to Wagner was the 1950s science fiction television program Captain Video, which used the Overture to the Flyng Dutschman as its introductory theme music. It's the sung parts I don't care for. I am determined to watch one Wagner opera in my lifetime, but it has to be one of the shortest ones.

In my opinion the greatest opera composer of all time was Claudio Monteverdi.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

one of the problems with Wagner is that much of the music can only be managed by mature singers who often look wrong for the role they are singing. I have a DVD of Mastersingers in which the dashing young knight is played by Ben Happner. He sings superbly but looks as if he has wondered in from Falstaff. It is these ludicrous situations that convince me that Wagner's genius lay in music rather than in the theatre. His libretti are far too long winded and as a philosopher he was ridiculous. The best way to 'enjoy' Wagner (if that is the word) is to think of it as an entertainment. There is some rattling good music but, as Rossini said, also some simply awful quarter hours!


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

DavidA said:


> one of the problems with Wagner is that much of the music can only be managed by mature singers who often look wrong for the role they are singing. I have a DVD of Mastersingers in which the dashing young knight is played by Ben Happner. He sings superbly but looks as if he has wondered in from Falstaff. It is these ludicrous situations that convince me that Wagner's genius lay in music rather than in the theatre. His libretti are far too long winded and as a philosopher he was ridiculous. The best way to 'enjoy' Wagner (if that is the word) is to think of it as an entertainment. There is some rattling good music but, as Rossini said, also some simply awful quarter hours!


Part of the problem here is that you're supposed to be watching from a distance. The makeup and stage design are not meant to be seen in close-up. It's somewhat easier to suspend one's disbelief regarding the ages of the singers if their age is hidden. I don't really see this as any more of a problem for Wagner than for most other opera composers.

Also, it seems that I'm near alone (on this forum, at least) in having been drawn to Wagner the first time I heard him. The first opera I ever tried to sit through was Die Walkurie, and I liked it immediately.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I wouldn't say I don't _like_ Wagner as much as I don't particularly _care_. It's not bad music, it's just a bit too contrived for my taste.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Part of the problem here is that you're supposed to be watching from a distance. The makeup and stage design are not meant to be seen in close-up. It's somewhat easier to suspend one's disbelief regarding the ages of the singers if their age is hidden. I don't really see this as any more of a problem for Wagner than for most other opera composers.
> 
> Also, it seems that I'm near alone (on this forum, at least) in having been drawn to Wagner the first time I heard him. The first opera I ever tried to sit through was Die Walkurie, and I liked it immediately.


Yes, point taken. However, with Mozart you can use younger singers as the voices are lighter. Let's face it, if someone doesn't look the part it is just bad drama. We do need suspend disbelief for opera but there are limits!


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Also, it seems that I'm near alone (on this forum, at least) in having been drawn to Wagner the first time I heard him. The first opera I ever tried to sit through was Die Walkurie, and I liked it immediately.


No, you are not alone. I fell in love with his music immediately after hearing not even a complete opera (that came a bit later) but a little piece of it, called _Siegfrieds Trauermusik_

*DavidA*, if some singers really don't look their part, you can listen to them, instead of watching them


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> No, you are not alone. I fell in love with his music immediately after hearing not even a complete opera (that came a bit later) but a little piece of it, called _Siegfrieds Trauermusik_
> 
> *DavidA*, if some singers really don't look their part, you can listen to them, instead of watching them


Yes, but the problem is that Wagner wanted to create a music-drama art form. He succeeded only in the first.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Yes, point taken. However, with Mozart you can use younger singers as the voices are lighter. Let's face it, if someone doesn't look the part it is just bad drama. We do need suspend disbelief for opera but there are limits!


Mozart wrote great operas. He did not write the only great operas. Strauss's Salome is regularly performed with a lead far beyond her teens. The same goes for other stage plays. The acting and singing are far more important for creating the illusion and the drama than superficial matters of appearance.



DavidA said:


> Yes, but the problem is that Wagner wanted to create a music-drama art form. He succeeded only in the first.


Why is it Wagner's fault if his conception is a little past what can actually be achieved? There have been plenty of composers who created things that could not possibly be adequately performed in their own time, for one reason or another. Standards of orchestral playing are far better than they used to be, and the first generation of singers couldn't even sing Wagner in tune. They were often significantly off.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Mozart wrote great operas. He did not write the only great operas. Strauss's Salome is regularly performed with a lead far beyond her teens. The same goes for other stage plays. The acting and singing are far more important for creating the illusion and the drama than superficial matters of appearance.
> .


As you say part of the problem lies in the fact that the close-up filming of opera does show the singers' maturity. That's why when it is got right, as in the 2006 Glyndbourne Cosi fan Tutte DVD, with singers who look the part, it is absolutely sensational. I must say I have a Met Don Giovanni which suffers somewhat from ageism. But a Figaro from Covent Garden is a triumph. 
I agree Mozart didn't write the only great operas but he did write opera better than anyone else. He seems to get more into a phrase than most composers do into a whole scene. Overstatement I know, but when you listen to Mozart it is miraculous. I would say the only opera to touch similar heights is Verdi's Falstaff.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Why is it Wagner's fault if his conception is a little past what can actually be achieved? There have been plenty of composers who created things that could not possibly be adequately performed in their own time, for one reason or another. Standards of orchestral playing are far better than they used to be, and the first generation of singers couldn't even sing Wagner in tune. They were often significantly off.


Of course it is Wagner's fault as he wrote the operas. There is frankly so much of the ridiculous about them when you actually see them. It's like a pantomime that's trying to be profound. Now Mozart's Flute is also a pantomime but somehow Mozart manages to bring the thing off, probably as the music is lighter and we are allowed to laugh. With Wagner we tend to laugh when we shouldn't. I was watching a video of the Ride of the Valkyries and my wife laughed out loud at the stentorian maidens issuing their warcry. And when Seigfried says, 'This is no man!', who can refrain from mirth? 
As for Strauss and Salome, we have had few singers who can do justice to the visuals and the vocals. I mean, dear old Birgit doing the dance of the seven veils, you feared for the scenery! But what a voice!


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Of course it is Wagner's fault as he wrote the operas. There is frankly so much of the ridiculous about them when you actually see them.


In your mind. It should be clear that there are many who disagree. I'm not arguing with you because you dislike Wagner. I'm arguing with you because you insist that your dislike is Wagner's fault. Wagner didn't try to be Mozart. His conception of opera was very different. What is your opinion of post-Wagner operas, particularly Pelleas et Mellisande, Salome, Elektra, and Wozzeck? (Ignoring for the moment anti-Wagnerian opera like The Rake's Progress.)



> And when Seigfried says, 'This is no man!', who can refrain from mirth?


I think that this was supposed to be amusing. The character is intended to be incredibly naive.



> As for Strauss and Salome, we have had few singers who can do justice to the visuals and the vocals. I mean, dear old Birgit doing the dance of the seven veils, you feared for the scenery! But what a voice!


This requires suspension of more than just disbelief. So, do you think that this is Strauss's fault? (And the music for that scene is rather dire in spots as well, so maybe it is, in part...)


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> I was watching a video of the Ride of the Valkyries and my wife laughed out loud at the stentorian maidens issuing their warcry.


I think it was the fault of the staging then (which one was it, by the way?) Sometimes they do make this scene look ridiculous.



> And when Seigfried says, 'This is no man!', who can refrain from mirth?


Just imagine Siegfried who had lived in a forest all his life and never seen a woman before (but who might have seen armored men before and know that armor is what males wear - just speculation) come to that rock, see an armored and shielded warrior lying there, take the armor off and see a being that used to be an immortal daughter of the gods, of such great beauty that it made him feel not simply admiration, but real fear. What else was he supposed to say?!

I am firmly convinced that the problem with Wagner stagings is not in the content of the music dramas as envisioned and written by Wagner, but in the weird imaginations of opera directors. If they followed Wagner's instructions perfectly (and with modern technology it is much more possible than in Wagner's time) the result would be a whole lot better.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I got MaestroViolinist to listen to the last movement of Wagner's Symphony in C (she HATES Wagner) and her response was that it was "listenable "


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> In your mind. It should be clear that there are many who disagree. I'm not arguing with you because you dislike Wagner. I'm arguing with you because you insist that your dislike is Wagner's fault. Wagner didn't try to be Mozart. His conception of opera was very different. What is your opinion of post-Wagner operas, particularly Pelleas et Mellisande, Salome, Elektra, and Wozzeck? (Ignoring for the moment anti-Wagnerian opera like The Rake's Progress.)


Oh I realise that there are many who disagree. I think my main problem is not with the operas as entertainment. They can be enjoyed if uyou like sort of thing and are prepared to sit that long. As with any opera there has to be suspension of disbelief but with Wagner it tends to be greater. I think my problem comes with people viewing the works as almost some sort of sacred canon or great work of philosophy. Let's face it - Wagner was an abominable man and a lousy philosopher. He was a completely self-obsessed monster - not someone I'd fancy making the head of a school of philosophy or the leader of a religious movement. The 'religion' that can be traced back to Wagner (at least in part) was Nazism. No, Wagner was a tremendously talented composer but in all other respects he is to be abominated.

As for the other compositions you mention: yes, I like Debussy's opera, but I would point out I know it from the Karajan version which is held to be heretical by some Francophiles, although not by so distinguished a critic as the late John Steane. I can listen to Salome when I'm feeling strong though again I have Karajan who tends to be less of a full frontal assult than (say) Solti. I agree on the Dance of the Seven Veils BTW. As for Wozzek - hate it. Horrible!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I think it was the fault of the staging then (which one was it, by the way?) Sometimes they do make this scene look ridiculous.
> Just imagine Siegfried who had lived in a forest all his life and never seen a woman before (but who might have seen armored men before and know that armor is what males wear - just speculation) come to that rock, see an armored and shielded warrior lying there, take the armor off and see a being that used to be an immortal daughter of the gods, of such great beauty that it made him feel not simply admiration, but real fear. What else was he supposed to say?!
> I am firmly convinced that the problem with Wagner stagings is not in the content of the music dramas as envisioned and written by Wagner, but in the weird imaginations of opera directors. If they followed Wagner's instructions perfectly (and with modern technology it is much more possible than in Wagner's time) the result would be a whole lot better.


The 'Ride' was the Met version with the oscillating planks. I thought it was rather imaginative. But my wife was laughing at the first Ho Jo Ho! The problem with Wagner is when someone laughs you do see how ridiculous it can be.
As for dear old Siegfried finding Brunnhilda, the laugh at 'This is no man!' actually comes as the soprano is almost inevitably some well endowed lady with peaks rising like a mountain range!


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Let's face it - Wagner was an abominable man and a lousy philosopher. He was a completely self-obsessed monster - not someone I'd fancy making the head of a school of philosophy or the leader of a religious movement. The 'religion' that can be traced back to Wagner (at least in part) was Nazism. No, Wagner was a tremendously talented composer but in all other respects he is to be abominated.


And yet, repeating these words over and over and over again on this forum or anywhere else will not make Wagner's music even the tiniest bit less glorious.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> And yet, repeating these words over and over and over again on this forum or anywhere else will not make Wagner's music even the tiniest bit less glorious.


But the 'glories' of the music will not wipe out the vile philosophy of life that Wagner possessed and practiced. Or the hideous nature of many of his conceptions.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Oh I realise that there are many who disagree. I think my main problem is not with the operas as entertainment. They can be enjoyed if you like sort of thing and are prepared to sit that long. As with any opera there has to be suspension of disbelief but with Wagner it tends to be greater. I think my problem comes with people viewing the works as almost some sort of sacred canon or great work of philosophy. Let's face it - Wagner was an abominable man and a lousy philosopher. He was a completely self-obsessed monster - not someone I'd fancy making the head of a school of philosophy or the leader of a religious movement. The 'religion' that can be traced back to Wagner (at least in part) was Nazism. No, Wagner was a tremendously talented composer but in all other respects he is to be abominated.


I am neither arguing for Wagner the man nor Wagner the philosopher (whose ideas are far too idealistic to really be taken for granted in this day and age). I don't think a wholehearted acceptance of either is necessary to enjoy Wagner's operatic works, both as music and as theater. If you believe that Wagner truly had no theatrical or dramatic sense, why do you think none of his non-operatic works, Siegfried Idyll aside, have survived other than as curiosities?



> As for the other compositions you mention: yes, I like Debussy's opera, but I would point out I know it from the Karajan version which is held to be heretical by some Francophiles, although not by so distinguished a critic as the late John Steane. I can listen to Salome when I'm feeling strong though again I have Karajan who tends to be less of a full frontal assult than (say) Solti. I agree on the Dance of the Seven Veils BTW.


Debussy may have railed against Wagner (see Golliwog's Cakewalk), but Wagner was his predecessor and he knew it. I'm most familiar with Boulez's version (I also enjoy Boulez's Wagner for an interesting perspective on the music). Their methods are linked, especially the blurred/suspended tonality that Debussy depended on. Do you think you prefer Debussy because the drama is more understated?

Strauss, on the other hand, is incredibly obvious by comparison to either Wagner or Debussy. Salome works, though, because it has great momentum. If it were any longer, it would run out of steam quickly.



> As for Wozzek - hate it. Horrible!


Why is it horrible? The plot? The worldview? The music? It's a repertory opera, one of the most 100 often performed. In my experience, it's a very powerful and dramatically taut work. A one-word dismissal doesn't help anyone.


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

You seem to have convinced yourself by incessant repetition of the idea that Wagner was some kind of monster and now don't want to let go of it. What was so vile about him? He didn't kill anyone, didn't rob anyone, didn't rape anyone, didn't steal anyone's work and didn't become some sort of a dictator. What did he do? Get another man's wife fall in love with him - but a lot of far more insignificant men have done the same, and worse things. Write an antisemitic article - but at that time it wasn't anything particularly evil, people wrote all sorts of things about women, about Jews, about blacks. I have just reread this article, and Wagner is not calling to violence or to genocide there, rather to the opposite effect: "... _take ye your part in this regenerative work of deliverance through self-annulment; then are we one and un-dissevered_". He didn't want to pay up his debts? Well, certainly that's not the most moral behavior, but I do believe we can forgive debts that are almost 200 years old. His creditors are all long dead too 

Of course I am not saying Wagner was a saint (and how many of the great masters were? I can think only of Bach and Bruckner), but I do believe he was more a victim of circumstances he had no control over (since they happened long after his death) than a criminal. And since I deeply respect the man who has created so much beauty, I also feel it necessary to speak up in defence of his reputation.


----------



## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

"Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit" Elmer Fudd.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> I am neither arguing for Wagner the man nor Wagner the philosopher (whose ideas are far too idealistic to really be taken for granted in this day and age). I don't think a wholehearted acceptance of either is necessary to enjoy Wagner's operatic works, both as music and as theater. If you believe that Wagner truly had no theatrical or dramatic sense, why do you think none of his non-operatic works, Siegfried Idyll aside, have survived other than as curiosities?
> Debussy may have railed against Wagner (see Golliwog's Cakewalk), but Wagner was his predecessor and he knew it. I'm most familiar with Boulez's version (I also enjoy Boulez's Wagner for an interesting perspective on the music). Their methods are linked, especially the blurred/suspended tonality that Debussy depended on. Do you think you prefer Debussy because the drama is more understated?
> Strauss, on the other hand, is incredibly obvious by comparison to either Wagner or Debussy. Salome works, though, because it has great momentum. If it were any longer, it would run out of steam quickly.
> Why is it horrible? The plot? The worldview? The music? It's a repertory opera, one of the most 100 often performed. In my experience, it's a very powerful and dramatically taut work. A one-word dismissal doesn't help anyone.


I think we are saying the same thing about Wagner. Except I would put in lower on the scale as a dramatist than you do. 
I do think Debussy's opera is beautiful because it is so understated. 
I was merely giving my personal opinion on the Berg. I just don't like it.
You are certainly right about Salome. If it were any longer it would either kill itself or its audience. As it is it is really the perfect length. Only the celebrated dance really outstays its welcome.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> You seem to have convinced yourself by incessant repetition of the idea that Wagner was some kind of monster and now don't want to let go of it. What was so vile about him? He didn't kill anyone, didn't rob anyone, didn't rape anyone, didn't steal anyone's work and didn't become some sort of a dictator. What did he do? Get another man's wife fall in love with him - but a lot of far more insignificant men have done the same, and worse things. Write an antisemitic article - but at that time it wasn't anything particularly evil, people wrote all sorts of things about women, about Jews, about blacks. I have just reread this article, and Wagner is not calling to violence or to genocide there, rather to the opposite effect: "... _take ye your part in this regenerative work of deliverance through self-annulment; then are we one and un-dissevered_". He didn't want to pay up his debts? Well, certainly that's not the most moral behavior, but I do believe we can forgive debts that are almost 200 years old. His creditors are all long dead too
> 
> Of course I am not saying Wagner was a saint (and how many of the great masters were? I can think only of Bach and Bruckner), but I do believe he was more a victim of circumstances he had no control over (since they happened long after his death) than a criminal. And since I deeply respect the man who has created so much beauty, I also feel it necessary to speak up in defence of his reputation.


I think you are making a mistake of equating Wagner the musician and Wagner the man. I am a great admirer of Beethoven's music. However Beethoven the man is a very different proposition. He could be a total monster to his friend whatever he's high ideals (eg brotherhood of man) were as far as music was concerned.
Wagner however carried it all to a new level. Psychology has postulated that he may have been suffering from gross megalomania, paranoia and moral derangement. Many of his actions imply someone of (mild) psychopathic tendencies. 
He was a vicious anti-Semite and an infamous womaniser. He is alleged to have fathered many illegitimate children. He treated his first wife abominably and then stole someone else's wife, finding in her an echo of his own limitless self adoration. 
Now none of this affects the beauty of his music. It does not stop you enjoying it. But it does give a backdrop into the sort of man we are dealing with. Wagner is a man I could never respect no matter how beautiful his music was.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I think you are making a mistake of equating Wagner the musician and Wagner the man. I am a great admirer of Beethoven's music. However Beethoven the man is a very different proposition. He could be a total monster to his friend whatever he's high ideals (eg brotherhood of man) were as far as music was concerned.
> Wagner however carried it all to a new level. Psychology has postulated that he may have been suffering from gross megalomania, paranoia and moral derangement. Many of his actions imply someone of (mild) psychopathic tendencies.
> He was a vicious anti-Semite and an infamous womaniser. He is alleged to have fathered many illegitimate children. He treated his first wife abominably and then stole someone else's life finding in her an echo of his own limitless self adoration.
> Now none of this affects the beauty of his music. It does not stop you enjoying it. But it does give a backdrop into the sort of man we are dealing with. Wagner is a man I could never respect no matter how beautiful his music was.


I respect Hitler's favourite music and preferred diet. Same thing there.


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> He is alleged to have fathered many illegitimate children.


Considering the falling reproduction rate in Germany and the danger for this fine nation to be replaced with crowds of third-worlders within the next decades, the German people could use some more men like Wagner - those who left not only a musical, but also a very real flesh-and-blood heritage.



> Psychology has postulated that he may have been suffering from gross megalomania, paranoia and moral derangement. Many of his actions imply someone of (mild) psychopathic tendencies.


I have a different idea (not very serious though). Since Wagner was so devoted to exploring the old Germanic literary heritage, could it happen that he came to associate himself with those ancient ancestors of his who left that heritage behind them? Could the heart beneath the velvet jacket of a 19th century Saxon gentleman have been a heart of a proud, barbaric and knowing nothing of political correctness ancient Teuton, one of those who instilled fear even in the hosts of the Roman Empire? The modern psychologists might have found something pathologic about his actions, but the people of one or two thousand years ago could well have accepted him as one of their own.

I repeat, I don't mean this last passage seriously.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I have a different idea (not very serious though). Since Wagner was so devoted to exploring the old Germanic literary heritage, could it happen that he came to associate himself with those ancient ancestors of his who left that heritage behind them? Could the heart beneath the velvet jacket of a 19th century Saxon gentleman have been a heart of a proud, barbaric and knowing nothing of political correctness ancient Teuton, one of those who instilled fear even in the hosts of the Roman Empire? The modern psychologists might have found something pathologic about his actions, but the people of one or two thousand years ago could well have accepted him as one of their own.
> 
> I repeat, I don't mean this last passage seriously.


They probably would more likely have cut his head off when he stole one of their wives! Or roasted him on a spit for not paying his debts!


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I got MaestroViolinist to listen to the last movement of Wagner's Symphony in C (she HATES Wagner) and her response was that it was "listenable "


I got a friend to listen to all of the Ring within the space of a few days, and now he is absolutely in love with it.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I think we are saying the same thing about Wagner. Except I would put in lower on the scale as a dramatist than you do.
> I do think Debussy's opera is beautiful because it is so understated.
> I was merely giving my personal opinion on the Berg. I just don't like it.
> You are certainly right about Salome. If it were any longer it would either kill itself or its audience. As it is it is really the perfect length. Only the celebrated dance really outstays its welcome.


Depends who's doing the dancing !


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> Depends who's doing the dancing !


I was talking about the aurals not the visuals!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Interesting that Wagner was reckoned to be influenced by Schopenhauer. Now from what I have read, this guy reckoned the way to self-enlightenment was through denying self-gratification, resisting temptation, seeking understanding of the sufferings of your fellow man and showing compassion.
I reckon dear Richard must have got 0/10 for that particular discipleship course!


----------



## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I got a friend to listen to all of the Ring within the space of a few days, and now he is absolutely in love with it.


Does anybody ever listen to the whole Ring cycle in one go? I certainly plan to do it some day, the house just needs to be empty, preferably the neighbours gone, I need to have nothing planned and lots of stamina.


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I planned on doing it once, and got as far as Act III of "Die Walküre", but then I was interrupted, so I finished it next day. I'll make another attempt some day (it's a pity Wagner's 200th birthday does not fall on the weekend).


----------



## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

I have no sense of mission at all regarding Wagner, coming from my own experience. I was not ready for forty years and wouldn't have touched the stuff for the world, for various musical and non-musical reasons. There would have been absolutely no way of talking me into it.

That said, the piece that may have opened me for just the tiniest bit were the *Wesendonck-Lieder*, particularly *"Im Treibhaus"*, which is possibly the most sublime piece of music that I know. Just like that piece was one of the seeds of "Tristan" (the song essentially becomes the orchestral introduction to the third act), it might have grown on me and made me open up for more.

My favorite recording of it is the one with Jessye Norman and Irwin Gage (I've looked but I don't think it's on YouTube at the moment).


----------



## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Apparently this is a thing that exists:









Wagner for people who like Glenn Gould.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

ahammel said:


> Apparently this is a thing that exists:
> 
> View attachment 15583
> 
> ...


The virtuosity is incredible!


----------



## altom (Dec 13, 2013)

I do understand this thread is "cold", 
though we are still in 2013, and as a project for Wagner's bicentenary, I more or less obliged myself to listen to his works. So, i did, and so I fully agree with an answer in thsi thread given last year by Tannhäuser.

I fully agree with him, for me Wagner reaches his best in Vorspiele / Overture. Those 4 minutes Vorspiel of the Rheingold is mesmerising; Tristan und Isolde Vorspiel to the first act , same for the Vorspiel to the first Act of Tannhäuser, full of Pathos, made my sympathetic to the good Richard.
OK, I need more exercise... when the singing initiates.
Happy 200th birthday.


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Not exactly people but our space bros could enjoy the ''musica'' too


----------



## stevederekson (Jan 5, 2014)

How can one not be ripped down emotionally by the Pilgrim's Chorus from Tannhäuser, or by Elsa's procession in Lohengrin?

Watch this, from 1:58:30 until about 2:04:30. How a human being could create something like this is beyond me.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

stevederekson said:


> How a human being could create something like this is beyond me.


I was also convinced that only beavers can create something like that. Wagner is a real eye-opener.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

stevederekson said:


> How can one not be ripped down emotionally by the Pilgrim's Chorus from Tannhäuser, or by Elsa's procession in Lohengrin?
> 
> Watch this, from 1:58:30 until about 2:04:30. How a human being could create something like this is beyond me.


How can you not be ripped down emotionally by the proudly atonal and beautiful larghissimo movement from Schuman's 10th symphony?

Everybody's different!


----------



## stevederekson (Jan 5, 2014)

hpowders said:


> How can you not be ripped down emotionally by the proudly atonal and beautiful larghissimo movement from Schuman's 10th symphony?
> 
> Everybody's different!


Ha! I actually saw your reference to the symphony in another post and have been listening for the past 15 minutes. I will get back to you about the larghissimo.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

stevederekson said:


> Ha! I actually saw your reference to the symphony in another post and have been listening for the past 15 minutes. I will get back to you about the larghissimo.


Hey! Please don't just listen to it one time. Live with it for a while. It just may grab you! I hope it does.


----------



## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

I listened to all of the clips in this thread -- or as much of them as I could stomach -- and I guess I need not say any more. I've tried before; I'll try again. 

But I enjoy that others enjoy Wagner. 

Go, music! Go 49'ers! 

- Bill


----------

