# Help: I cannot understand chord progression here.



## roosbab

Hi,
I am a classical pianist but a beginner in jazz and music improvisation. 

In the following link i have the first minute of a music composed by "Foot Club Orchestra" for the movie sherlock junior(Buster Keaton 1924):






I would like to understand the chord progression but it is simply too complex for me.

In Root I hear a progression of Bflat-F-D-Aflat, when off beat we always hear a B-flat. Melody ist something like D-C#-C. I cannot recognize the tonal center and the only clear part is when in the fourth bar, everything is resolved in a c-minor chord. 

I cannot understand what here is happening. How can I approach this? I want to write a simplified transcription for piano and later try to practice improvisation on it.

Thank you very much for your attention and best regards,
Rusbeh


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## pianozach

Simplify.

Here's what I hear:

We're in *C minor* (that's where it resolves), so the "verse" is *bVII* and *bVI* (Bb and Ab) [3x]. However, I think it's the bass notes that are throwing you off. I hear them as a bass clef _*melody*_ rather than serving as a bass function.

_BUT_, if you want to get particular, the first chord is *Bb+* (B-flat augmented 5),
while the second is *Ab°* (Abdim),
which resolve to *Cm* (C minor).

That happens three times, then goes to a sort of 'bridge' (I guess), which is a Gb chord, then wanders off to a Bb chord

In slow 4:
Bb+ / Ab° / Bb+ / Ab° /
Bb+ / Ab° / Cm / / /

Bb+ / Ab° / Bb+ / Ab° /
Bb+ / Ab° / Cm / / /

Bb+ / Ab° / Bb+ / Ab° /
Bb+ / Ab° / Cm / / /

Gb / / / Bb

Or:
bVII+ bVI° bVII+ bVI°
bVII+ bVI ° i

For even more detailed chord charting, I'd do this:
[quarter notes:]
Bb+ Bb+/Gb Ab°/D Ab° Bb+ Bb+/Gb Ab°/D Absus
Bb+ Bb+/Gb Ab°/D Ab° Cm Cm/G Cm/Eb Cm

As far as harmonic functionality, of which I am _NOT_ an expert, I think the Bb+ is an alternate V chord, and the Ab° seems to be a false cadence (or resolution) to a bVi° from that alternate V, that then resolves to the c minor tonic (I).

OR it could be the it's a plagal cadence (iv - i). with the bVI filling in for the iv chord, leaving the actual "F" inferred (but not actually played)

The voice leading from the Ab° to the Cm is quite nice and natural, with the sus (the 'D') resolving upward to Eb (the 3rd of a Cm chord), and the Ab resolving downward to G.

I think that the problem here is that notes are being left out of the chords, which is what gives them an eerie 'feel'. The Bb+ works with an Ab added (making it a Bb7+), and the Ab° works well if you also add a 7th (making it an Abhalfdim7).

This might give you somewhere from which to analyze.


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## REP

I don't hear Absus for the second chord, especially since there's a C in the melody. It sounds like a cluster chord comprising Ab, C, D, and F# to me (technically this is a Fr+6 in the key of c-minor, but I'm not convinced these are the _only_ notes in the cluster).

I don't know how a jazz musician would interpret these harmonies, but to me it sounds like a whole tone scale built on C (C-D-E-F#-Ab-Bb-C). You can probably play anything in that scale on the Bb+ and cluster chord and it will sound good. Then switch to a Cm scale (probably natural) for the Cm chord. Things get a little weird, though, when the second solo instrument shows up, because it seems to be playing in a scale that includes Eb. I think it's _supposed_ to sound quirky and off-key, though.


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## pianozach

REP said:


> I don't hear Absus for the second chord, especially since there's a C in the melody. It sounds like a cluster chord comprising Ab, C, D, and F# to me (technically this is a Fr+6 in the key of c-minor, but I'm not convinced these are the _only_ notes in the cluster).
> 
> I don't know how a jazz musician would interpret these harmonies, but to me it sounds like a whole tone scale built on C (C-D-E-F#-Ab-Bb-C). You can probably play anything in that scale on the Bb+ and cluster chord and it will sound good. Then switch to a Cm scale (probably natural) for the Cm chord. Things get a little weird, though, when the second solo instrument shows up, because it seems to be playing in a scale that includes Eb. I think it's _supposed_ to sound quirky and off-key, though.


I did make a small mistake. You are correct; that *Ab* chord is _NOT_ an *Absus*, which would require a *Db*, _not_ a *D natural*. 

It appears to be an *Ab°* (or Abdim). I thought of the "*D*" in that chord enharmonically and confused myself - it's actually an *Ebb*, (a flatted 5th). 

I'm going to go back and fix my comment . . . . and now THIS comment won't make a whole lot of sense.


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## REP

pianozach said:


> I did make a small mistake. You are correct; that *Ab* chord is _NOT_ an *Absus*, which would require a *Db*, _not_ a *D natural*.
> 
> It appears to be an *Ab°* (or Abdim).


I don't think this is correct either. There's a C in the melody, for one thing, and Ab*°* would have Cb.


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## roosbab

pianozach said:


> Simplify.
> 
> Here's what I hear:
> 
> We're in *C minor* (that's where it resolves), so the "verse" is *bVII* and *bVI* (Bb and Ab) [3x]. However, I think it's the bass notes that are throwing you off. I hear them as a bass clef _*melody*_ rather than serving as a bass function.
> 
> _BUT_, if you want to get particular, the first chord is *Bb+* (B-flat augmented 5),
> while the second is *Ab°* (Abdim),
> which resolve to *Cm* (C minor).
> 
> That happens three times, then goes to a sort of 'bridge' (I guess), which is a Gb chord, then wanders off to a Bb chord
> 
> In slow 4:
> Bb+ / Ab° / Bb+ / Ab° /
> Bb+ / Ab° / Cm / / /
> 
> Bb+ / Ab° / Bb+ / Ab° /
> Bb+ / Ab° / Cm / / /
> 
> Bb+ / Ab° / Bb+ / Ab° /
> Bb+ / Ab° / Cm / / /
> 
> Gb / / / Bb
> 
> Or:
> bVII+ bVI° bVII+ bVI°
> bVII+ bVI ° i
> 
> For even more detailed chord charting, I'd do this:
> [quarter notes:]
> Bb+ Bb+/Gb Ab°/D Ab° Bb+ Bb+/Gb Ab°/D Absus
> Bb+ Bb+/Gb Ab°/D Ab° Cm Cm/G Cm/Eb Cm
> 
> As far as harmonic functionality, of which I am _NOT_ an expert, I think the Bb+ is an alternate V chord, and the Ab° seems to be a false cadence (or resolution) to a bVi° from that alternate V, that then resolves to the c minor tonic (I).
> 
> OR it could be the it's a plagal cadence (iv - i). with the bVI filling in for the iv chord, leaving the actual "F" inferred (but not actually played)
> 
> The voice leading from the Ab° to the Cm is quite nice and natural, with the sus (the 'D') resolving upward to Eb (the 3rd of a Cm chord), and the Ab resolving downward to G.
> 
> I think that the problem here is that notes are being left out of the chords, which is what gives them an eerie 'feel'. The Bb+ works with an Ab added (making it a Bb7+), and the Ab° works well if you also add a 7th (making it an Abhalfdim7).
> 
> This might give you somewhere from which to analyze.


Thank you very much for the analysis. I have learned a lot. Just a question about Ab°. I don't hear any B here. It is more like Ab, Bb and D (and C in melody) How it would be an Ab°?


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## pianozach

REP said:


> I don't think this is correct either. There's a C in the melody, for one thing, and Ab*°* would have Cb.


Ah, yes. Again you're correct. It's a half diminished chord, or, more precisely, an Ab with a b5: Ab(b5).

Dang. We need a Jazz guy in here to help.


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## pianozach

roosbab said:


> Thank you very much for the analysis. I have learned a lot. Just a question about Ab°. I don't hear any B here. It is more like Ab, Bb and D (and C in melody) How it would be an Ab°?


Sorry, my mistake. An *Ab°* would be Ab - Cb - Ebb.

The chord being played is an Ab - C - Ebb, or an *Ab(b5)*.

Still, functionally it works the same way: The *Bb(+5)* serves as a substituted dominant, and the *Ab(b5)* functions as a substitute tonic.

I do think that the unique issue here is that music theory has sort of outgrown the concepts of traditional music theory, which makes it difficult to analyze and to express in a written format.

I've seen some complex jazz chord charts in my day . . . I find the complex chords difficult to sight read quickly (even being an excellent sight reader of music).

For instance, the first eight chords for Autumn Leaves (using a "-" instead of an "m" to indicate a minor chord, and using ∆7 instead of maj7):

A-7 - F7 - G∆7 - C∆7 - F#-7b5 - B7 - E- - E-

I find that the *F#m7b5 *difficult enough, and when they get to 11 and 13 chords with altered other tones, I just cannot process fast enough.

When I went to college (a state university no less) as a piano major, the curricula was still elitist, and any music that was NOT "classical" was basically considered to be "_not_ music". You were either going to be a Classical player, or bust. They tolerated their small jazz program (although did not actually _teach_ jazz), and wouldn't even let musicians play in the pit for the theater department. There was no mention of session playing, and popular musical styles like rock, pop, country, blues, fusion, bluegrass, etc. were thought of as being so inferior as to be laughable.

So my understanding of music theory is basically a fundamental foundation of Classical and Romantic era theory. The rest I learned somewhat as I continued working in bands and musical theatre. So my knowledge of music theory is somewhat _"outdated" _and_ incomplete_. I _could_ use some training, and likely would do so if I could afford it. But at my age, new tricks don't come easily.


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## REP

I made a transcription, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to post it here. I'll just say that the guitar is playing an interval of E-Bb in the second chord (according to my ears), while the bass is playing D and Ab, and the oboe is playing a C. That makes the second chord a cluster of Ab-Bb-C-D-E. There could also be an F# in the strings, which would mean that the chord includes every note in the whole-tone scale, but I'm not sure about that one.


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## roosbab

pianozach said:


> Sorry, my mistake. An *Ab°* would be Ab - Cb - Ebb.
> 
> The chord being played is an Ab - C - Ebb, or an *Ab(b5)*.
> 
> Still, functionally it works the same way: The *Bb(+5)* serves as a substituted dominant, and the *Ab(b5)* functions as a substitute tonic.
> 
> I do think that the unique issue here is that music theory has sort of outgrown the concepts of traditional music theory, which makes it difficult to analyze and to express in a written format.
> 
> I've seen some complex jazz chord charts in my day . . . I find the complex chords difficult to sight read quickly (even being an excellent sight reader of music).
> 
> For instance, the first eight chords for Autumn Leaves (using a "-" instead of an "m" to indicate a minor chord, and using ∆7 instead of maj7):
> 
> A-7 - F7 - G∆7 - C∆7 - F#-7b5 - B7 - E- - E-
> 
> I find that the *F#m7b5 *difficult enough, and when they get to 11 and 13 chords with altered other tones, I just cannot process fast enough.
> 
> When I went to college (a state university no less) as a piano major, the curricula was still elitist, and any music that was NOT "classical" was basically considered to be "_not_ music". You were either going to be a Classical player, or bust. They tolerated their small jazz program (although did not actually _teach_ jazz), and wouldn't even let musicians play in the pit for the theater department. There was no mention of session playing, and popular musical styles like rock, pop, country, blues, fusion, bluegrass, etc. were thought of as being so inferior as to be laughable.
> 
> So my understanding of music theory is basically a fundamental foundation of Classical and Romantic era theory. The rest I learned somewhat as I continued working in bands and musical theatre. So my knowledge of music theory is somewhat _"outdated" _and_ incomplete_. I _could_ use some training, and likely would do so if I could afford it. But at my age, new tricks don't come easily.


There are a lot of material in your comments (both of you) for me to learn. Actually I have also been my whole life only into classical music but lately have begun to listen and to analyse some jazz music. By which I hope to learn a little improvisation on piano. Something which I find very difficult in classical music. Of course I have tried it but my output sounded like children music. However in Jazz improvisation, even as a beginner you can immediately create interesting ideas. (Am I correct here? )


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## roosbab

REP said:


> I made a transcription, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to post it here. I'll just say that the guitar is playing an interval of E-Bb in the second chord (according to my ears), while the bass is playing D and Ab, and the oboe is playing a C. That makes the second chord a cluster of Ab-Bb-C-D-E. There could also be an F# in the strings, which would mean that the chord includes every note in the whole-tone scale, but I'm not sure about that one.


 This is very interesting. I had totally forgotten about whole tone scales. I also heard that F# in the second instrument which made me completely lost but it all make sense now.


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## pianozach

REP said:


> I made a transcription, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to post it here. I'll just say that the guitar is playing an interval of E-Bb in the second chord (according to my ears), while the bass is playing D and Ab, and the oboe is playing a C. That makes the second chord a cluster of Ab-Bb-C-D-E. There could also be an F# in the strings, which would mean that the chord includes every note in the whole-tone scale, but I'm not sure about that one.


Yes, you can, as it's allowable under an educational umbrella, and you're not attempting to profit from it. That sort of thing is done on *Youtube* all the time.

Not only that, it's a very short edit of music, and may possibly even be in the Public Domain.

Check with a *Moderator* to be sure if the site itself doesn't have some prohibition (for instance, they'll allow a few lines of lyrics, but not the lyrics of an entire song). In this case we're talking only 8 measures of music, four of which are repeats of the first two bars (so, really, only four bars of music . . . .


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## verandai

I hear something similar to pianozach's last version (main harmonies with bass in quarter notes):

F#+ / A# => F#+ => DØ => DØ / Ab => C-

As the "f" is missing at the halfdiminished chord, it also could be interpreted as something else. I would interpret the whole non-C-part as the altered dominant scale in D (or "super locrian" of D), but that's just a guess as I'm still a Jazz amateur. I'm happy to be corrected by a pro jazzer! 

I didn't integrate the muted trumpet and the clarinet into the harmonies as I rather see them as ornaments. The first 2 chords could be also counted as D+, but as the whole thing resolves to F# at 0:56, I would see it rather as F#+


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## pianozach

So . . . you see - music no longer has to make sense in the harmonic structures of the Romantic era. Anything goes.

A hundred years from now they'll be fretting over analyzing *24-TET*, and how to notate it and justify the harmonic progression in a logical fashion.


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## verandai

I didn't make that up, it was actually something I've read about in the Jazz context 

@roosbab: Did our answers help somehow with your improvising?


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