# Nilssonesque voices



## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

So, I've been wondering. What other sopranos have a voice like Nilsson's, very big, voluminous, colorful and warm? But specially big. I doubt Nilsson was the only one, but I think her success might have shadowed other sopranos with similar voices. The only one I know with such voice would be Berit Lindholm. Who else you guys know like that?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Volve said:


> So, I've been wondering. What other sopranos have a voice like Nilsson's, very big, voluminous, colorful and warm? But specially big. I doubt Nilsson was the only one, but I think her success might have shadowed other sopranos with similar voices. The only one I know with such voice would be Berit Lindholm. Who else you guys know like that?


She was to be compared with Kirsten Flagstad in Wagnerian roles and I think that Flagstad was preferable,


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Uh, Jessye Norman, anyone?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Uh, Jessye Norman, anyone?


I wouldn't have thought she has the sheer size,Helen Traubel would have been in contention,but we are are talking about something special with these huge voices--I almost forgot Eva Turner now she was fairly huge.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Rita Hunter, Astrid Varnay, Martha Modl, I guess.
I never heard Nilsson lived so I don't really know big her voice truely is.
I wonder if Jane Eaglen during the peak of her career in early 1990's could match her
for size. She certainly made it sound easy to fill a big house as Brunnhilde or Isolde.
But judging from size of her voice from her recording, I would guess not but 
it is not all that easy to compare from recording.


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

pre-wobble Gwyneth Jones?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

From the Authorities at Wikipedia:

Wagnerian soprano singers

Florence Austral
Jeanne Michèle Charbonnet
Régine Crespin
Anne Evans
Kirsten Flagstad
Othalie Graham
Johanna Gadski
Gertrude Grob-Prandl
Alice Guszalewicz
Rita Hunter
Gwyneth Jones
Hilde Konetzni
Lilli Lehmann
Frida Leider
Germaine Lubin
Eva Marton
Johanna Meier
Anna von Mildenburg
Martha Mödl
Birgit Nilsson
Lillian Nordica
Milka Ternina
Helen Traubel
Eva Turner
Astrid Varnay
Deborah Voigt


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Interesting. But I think Anne Evans and Johanna Meier are/were "jugendlich dramatische" sopranos whose voices weren't the size of Nilsson's or Flagstad's. I suspect Deborah Voigt may be in the same category. It's curious that Evans and Meier are included, but Hildegard Behrens isn't -- though she was no Hochdramatische, either.
I also wonder if Olive Fremstad should be in this list. And among contemporary sopranos, what about Christine Goerke? (See video clip.)


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## Ritter (Apr 11, 2013)

Inge Borkh might fit the "nilssonesque voices" category.


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

Leonie Rysanek had a prety huge voice by all accounts - and the only reason she never really touched Brunnhilde or Isolde was out of her admiration of Nilsson


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

MAuer said:


> Interesting. But I think Anne Evans and Johanna Meier are/were "jugendlich dramatische" sopranos whose voices weren't the size of Nilsson's or Flagstad's. I suspect Deborah Voigt may be in the same category. It's curious that Evans and Meier are included, but Hildegard Behrens isn't -- though she was no Hochdramatische, either.
> I also wonder if Olive Fremstad should be in this list. And among contemporary sopranos, what about Christine Goerke? (See video clip.)


I don't know the criteria for making it on that Wikipedia list but it seems in order to earn the title of "Wagnerian Soprano" one must not only be of the crème de la crème of the dramatic fach but also has to have performed, preferably at Bayreuth, the major Wagnerian roles. That could be, for example, why Jessye Norman is left off the list, having sung "Tier II" Wagner roles but never as Brunnhile, Isolde, or Kundry. Meier and Voigt meanwhile have sung Brunnhildes and Isoldes (and perhaps the author had 300-lb Voigt in mind).


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

Couchie said:


> I don't know the criteria for making it on that Wikipedia list but it seems in order to earn the title of "Wagnerian Soprano" one must not only be of the crème de la crème of the dramatic fach but also has to have performed, preferably at Bayreuth, the major Wagnerian roles. That could be, for example, why Jessye Norman is left off the list, having sung "Tier II" Wagner roles but never as Brunnhile, Isolde, or Kundry. Meier and Voigt meanwhile have sung Brunnhildes and Isoldes (and perhaps the author had 300-lb Voigt in mind).


Sound reasoning but then why is Crespin included in that list? Admittedly, she sang Brunnhilde for Karajan's Die Walkure and she did have a huge voice, but she was never really comfortable as a high soprano and I understand she struggled with the high tessitura of the role. Don't get me wrong, she's one of my favourites, and I thought she sang the role well, but you could tell she had a bit of difficulty at times. Although her Kundry was apparently tremendous (never heard it) but I always thought it was more of a mezzo role

Typical problem with lists I suppose - always going to be omissions and people included where you could argue shouldn't. You could argue places for Behrens, Stemme and Waltraud Meier on that list based on that reasoning


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

AndyS said:


> Sound reasoning but then why is Crespin included in that list? Admittedly, she sang Brunnhilde for Karajan's Die Walkure and she did have a huge voice, but she was never really comfortable as a high soprano and I understand she struggled with the high tessitura of the role. Don't get me wrong, she's one of my favourites, and I thought she sang the role well, but you could tell she had a bit of difficulty at times. Although her Kundry was apparently tremendous (never heard it) but I always thought it was more of a mezzo role
> 
> Typical problem with lists I suppose - always going to be omissions and people included where you could argue shouldn't. You could argue places for Behrens, Stemme and Waltraud Meier on that list based on that reasoning


OK, I removed Crespin from the list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_soprano#Wagnerian_soprano_singers


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Uh, Jessye Norman, anyone?


No,not really she was no Wagnerian.

I've now answered that post twice..oh,well maybe you didn't hear me the first time.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Couchie said:


> From the Authorities at Wikipedia:
> 
> Wagnerian soprano singers
> 
> ...


This is just a list with no indication of blast power and the comparison is with Madam Nilsson.
One name on the list that hasn't been mentioned yet is Frida Leider, she should qualify.
If you have the chance read her book "Playing My Part" it's well worth it .


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

moody said:


> No,not really she was no Wagnerian.
> 
> I've now answered that post twice..oh,well maybe you didn't hear me the first time.


Norman only sang Sieglinde, Elsa and Kundry as far as I know. I think you would have to sing Isolde and or Brunnhilde to qualify as true Wagnerian soprano. Her voice is nowhere nearly as big as Jones, Behrens, Marton, Stemme or Polaski in person.

Pre surgery Voigt certainly sounded like an Isolde and Brunnhilde in making. She was really impressive as Chrysothemis when she sang with Behrens at the Met and also in Un Ballo.
Now I am glad her health is better but I think she did lose some of the quality and power to her voice and her Brunnhilde is not quite what she could be judging from her early career.


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## badRomance (Nov 22, 2011)

MAuer said:


> Interesting. But I think Anne Evans and Johanna Meier are/were "jugendlich dramatische" sopranos whose voices weren't the size of Nilsson's or Flagstad's. I suspect Deborah Voigt may be in the same category.


Being categorized as a dramatic soprano doesn't mean you have a Nilsson/Flagstad size voice. I heard Voigt live and it is not big at all; I was disappointed when some of Brunnhilde's sisters in the MET production had bigger sound. I never heard her before her surgery though.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

For me Evans' (my all-time favourite singer, thx to Kupfer) voice is quite Wagnerian: she has no problems with the huge orchestra under her legs, both high and low notes ring well, and her vibrato is, IMO, absolutely perfect! The sad thing is, that the only things, what can be heard from her except the Barenboim-Kupfer Ring are the Wesendonck lieder in YouTube.

Waltraud Meier for me is a mezzo, but because her voice is incredibly Wagnerian, she can sing few dramatic/Wagnerian soprano roles, like Isolde, Kundry, Sieglinde, Venus etc.

I hope I didn't post junk!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

suteetat said:


> Norman only sang Sieglinde, Elsa and Kundry as far as I know. I think you would have to sing Isolde and or Brunnhilde to qualify as true Wagnerian soprano. Her voice is nowhere nearly as big as Jones, Behrens, Marton, Stemme or Polaski in person.


Really? Who doesn't love this classic excerpt of Norman upstaging Behrens?






Norman's voice is absolutely massive - but what it does lack that piercing "lightning" quality typical of Wagnerian Sopranos. She has a much larger voice than W. Meier, but Meier's voice easily slices through the orchestra while Norman must actually _overwhelm _it.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Zabirilog said:


> Waltraud Meier for me is a mezzo, but because her voice is incredibly Wagnerian, she can sing few dramatic/Wagnerian soprano roles, like Isolde, Kundry, Sieglinde, Venus etc.


I actually prefer the lighter, more feminine touch of Meier in roles like Isolde and Kundry. Although Brunnhilde is definitely better served by a freak of nature like Nilsson.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Couchie said:


> Really? Who doesn't love this classic excerpt of Norman upstaging Behrens?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Norman's voice sounds large, darkish but she is really strongest in her lower range. Her top notes got a bit weaker and in her Sieglinde clip, at 1.41, her top note dropped significantly in volume. I heard her in Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle. While she was impressive, she really could not ride the orchestra or cut through the orchestra like a typical Wagnerian soprano, left alone Nilsson.

Angela Gheorghiu is another soprano with darkish tone that on recording sounds like she has relatively big voice but in person, she does not have a lot of power kind of like Lirico spinto who can only sings lyric soprano role. I am not saying that Norman's voice is as small as Gheorghiu but at least on recording, her voice sounds a lot bigger than in person.

Her Sieglinde with Janowski early in her career cetainly suggested that she may grow into heavier Wagner's role but she just never quite made it there for some reasons.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Altmeyer sang Brunnhilde for Janowski. She's a bit over parted (as most singers are) but later grew into the role I hear.

Of course Joan Sutherland had a huge voice though never touched Wagner seriously. Her Turandot for Mehta is remarkable.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

For the really, really big soprano voices I have done my research. Gertrude Grob Prandl and Eva Turner had voices perhaps larger than Nilsson's. Listen to Grob Prandl as Elektra or Robert e Diablo on Youtube and be astonished. She was a contemporary of Nilsson, much fatter and had even more impressive high C's, but she chose to be the Vienna house soprano and never gained a world reputation. Eva Marton, Ghena Dimitrova and Gwyneth Jones could all peal the paint from the walls.Many considered Marton's voice to be even larger than Nilsson, but lacked the penetrating focus. Nilsson created her sound through focus and resonance and was famous for a voice so penetrating it could push you against the back of your seat. Nilsson kept roles like Donna Anna in her repertoire not because they were her best, but because they kept her voice lean and bright. Nilsson was able in the big scene in Aida to be heard over the whole cast and chorus by singing mezzo piano on a high note but placing it so that it filled the house just from projection. Others had a bigger sound than Nilsson but laser like focus trumped all in her case. Astrid Varnay was the same age as Nilsson and was mistaken for her on the street at Bayreuth and had a voice to rival Nilsson in size but was not as overwhelming at the top as Nilsson. In recordings her voice sounds fuller and richer than Nilsson's but her darker sound may not have carried so well. She is considered to have the best recorded Elektra and her first live Ring from Bayreuth is amazing. Flagstad by all accounts had the biggest voice of all, but especially in the early years sounded very much like a lyric soprano.... with a mike in her throat. Ponselle never sang Wagner but was only a notch below Flagstad in size in a contest at the Met and had a powerful contralto extension below middle C. Milanov reminds me a lot of Nilsson in the size she produced in Verdi roles and also had that overwhelming squillo found in Nilsson... that ping that cuts through the orchestra. Helen Traubel was a contralto who turned herself into a soprano. Her size, warmth and beauty of voice were almost unparalleled but she had her B's and C's only for a few years. For recent singers, try super fatty Alessandra Marc, who had a truly thrilling top. In her heyday Jane Eaglen 15 years ago could be very impressive but her very top lost a bit of the umph found in the middle. Currently I have been enormously impressed with Lori Phillips in Turandot in Seattle and she could easily be heard over the chorus and orchestra. As far as Regine Crespin, she doesn't really blow me away, but I read a posting by another fan who said the high B she sang as Senta was the largest he had ever heard. She also could sound baritonal on the low D below Middle C like Jessye Norman and Rosa Ponselle in Schubert's Death of a Maiden. On a final note, mention must be made of the high D's and E's of Joan Sutherland which supposedly rivaled Nilsson's high C's .Check out the D at the end of the trio in the Act 2 of Norma in the 64 recording.Astonishing!. The comments on Jessye Norman were dead on. Her voice was huge but the placement kept it from overwhelming an orchestra. She was more mezzo than soprano IMHO just like Traubel.


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## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

I wasn't expecting so many responses, thank you all! Spent the last day from morning to night just listening to all these great singers, many of which I never knew before. Thank you again for taking your time to show me some more of this wonderful world on music. I still have a lot of listening and learning to do, so I'll be getting to it now! Particulary loving Grob Prandl and Crespin, and Helen traubel left me speechless, what a monumental voice! I'm finding it a bit difficult to get into Flagstad still, however beautiful her voice is. Norman's Johohoe is absolutely superb, and Jones hojotoho very thrilling! Sadly i couldn't find Altmeyer's Brunnhilde, though i appreciate her Sieglind very much. Now I'll be getting around to all those other names you guys shared with me!


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

I can't stand Jones, sorry  If she holds a note above c5 for more than a second, it has a terrible vibrato... Too much for my ear.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Altmeyer is the Brunnhilde on Janowski's Dresden Ring.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I heard both Rita Hunter and Birgit Nilsson live, and they both had a very large, steely tone.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Of course we must not forget that Maria Callas had a large voice in her younger days. She sang Turandot and even Isolde, I believe.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Of course we must not forget that Maria Callas had a large voice in her younger days. She sang Turandot and even Isolde, I believe.


 Sutherland and her husband said pre weight loss Callas had a huge voice. Try her high Eb at the end of her Triumphal Scene in Aida in 1950. 



 is a link to a Toastmaster speech I did on fat and skinny Callas and I play that scene. 



 = try this link for our only video of Flagstad where she KILLS at Hojotoho.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6Stoi8DAqU= a singing lesson by Flagstad on how to sing Wagner with great a Capella singing. 



 = Alessandra Marc as Turandot, the most exciting high notes I've ever heard coupled with a middle of mezzo richness. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmX9N8C8nko= this is Gwynneth Jones' Immolation Scene from Bayreuth early in her career. The voice gets a bit wild at times but is of truly astonishing amplitude and she was perhaps the greatest Wagnerian actress of all time. She started out as maybe the best Verdi singer since Price, but her voice lost some of it's bel canto perfection after she began singing Wagner. She still was able to blow people away as Norma in her mid 60's complete with coloratura and a High D!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxSI8BnUEGs= finally, a clip of Rosa Ponselle from the 20's in some of the most glorious vocal perfection ever and one of the few recordings where you can sense the overwhelming size of her dark, resonant sound.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Here is a clip of an truly incredible current soprano issuing a torrent of gorgeous tones in Turandot- Lori Phillips: 



. This is the role that made Nilsson millions!


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