# The landscape of classical music is changing for the better I think



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I just read a new article about how classical music is growing and transforming into something new and vital to our culture.

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music-arts/classical-music-blowing-article-1.1618623

I look forward to the new hybrid of classical music that it is broadening our spectrum. 

And it's good to see classical music sales go up finally.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I wouldn't have expected an article on classical music in the Daily News, but maybe that's another indication of positive changes. I hadn't heard of Lindsey Stirling, and her youtube channel does not seem to have classical music. Still I wonder if Bocelli, Stirling, and others like them actually increase what most of us would view as classical music sales? Does crossover music incline some who like it to sample more true classical music?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

mmsbls said:


> I wouldn't have expected an article on classical music in the Daily News, but maybe that's another indication of positive changes. I hadn't heard of Lindsey Stirling, and her youtube channel does not seem to have classical music. Still I wonder if Bocelli, Stirling, and others like them actually increase what most of us would view as classical music sales? Does crossover music incline some who like it to sample more true classical music?


Crossover music does help to introduce more people to classical music. When I was working in classical music sales in Philly HMV back in late 1990's it really was a great to get people to buy a Mozart or Beethoven CD in addition to Charlotte Church.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Thanks. I am so tired of reading articles that are posted by some members deploring the death of classical music.

This article seems to be attune with my experiences as an amateur musician who is a member of several music groups.


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

Not to be immodest, but I think I can safely take sole credit for the jump in CD sales, as I was buying none a year ago and today ... hand over fist.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

mmsbls said:


> I wouldn't have expected an article on classical music in the Daily News, but maybe that's another indication of positive changes. I hadn't heard of Lindsey Stirling, and her youtube channel does not seem to have classical music. Still I wonder if Bocelli, Stirling, and others like them actually increase what most of us would view as classical music sales? Does crossover music incline some who like it to sample more true classical music?


Here is a lovely track for enjoyment:


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

Apart from crossover music, classical music generally has revived itself by rediscovering tonality, with a whole lot of composers who decided that this is the best way to communicate with the public. There are many examples, but the one that comes to mind is Finland's leading contemporary composer Einojuhani Rautavaara. Classical music's most dangerous enemy at the present is the continuing cutbacks in governmental/arts funding council (etc) support in these neoliberal economic times.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Well, sure, the article seems positive, but I notice that when the writer suggested a starter-collection of 5 classical recordings he didn't pick anything less than 40 years old, which suggests a false dichotomy: old music composed and performed by dead people, or new music composed and/or performed by rock and pop artists.

I like that Dessner/Greenwood album, but Lindsey Stirling? Seriously? Next you'll tell me that Doris Day is death metal.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> Well, sure, the article seems positive, but I notice that when the writer suggested a starter-collection of 5 classical recordings he didn't pick anything less than 40 years old, which suggests a false dichotomy: old music composed and performed by dead people, or new music composed and/or performed by rock and pop artists.
> 
> I like that Dessner/Greenwood album, but Lindsey Stirling? Seriously? Next you'll tell me that Doris Day is death metal.


For the Doris Day allusion, time to celebrate a new facet:


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

manyene said:


> Apart from crossover music, classical music generally has revived itself by rediscovering tonality, with a whole lot of composers who decided that this is the best way to communicate with the public. There are many examples, but the one that comes to mind is Finland's leading contemporary composer Einojuhani Rautavaara. Classical music's most dangerous enemy at the present is the continuing cutbacks in governmental/arts funding council (etc) support in these neoliberal economic times.


Tonality (here meaning diatonicism) never went away. I don't know why people think it ever disappeared.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> Well, sure, the article seems positive, but I notice that when the writer suggested a starter-collection of 5 classical recordings he didn't pick anything less than 40 years old, which suggests a false dichotomy: old music composed and performed by dead people, or new music composed and/or performed by rock and pop artists.
> 
> I like that Dessner/Greenwood album, but Lindsey Stirling? Seriously? Next you'll tell me that Doris Day is death metal.





albertfallickwang said:


> For the Doris Day allusion, time to celebrate a new facet:


The OP clearly has an agenda that I cannot share in.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> I just read a new article about how classical music is growing and transforming into something new and vital to our culture.
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music-arts/classical-music-blowing-article-1.1618623
> 
> ...


Yes potentially. As long as the hybrid brings *more listeners together with CM* and not alienate. Composers like Alma Deutscher should do that wonderfully. Other examples include quality film score music.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> Yes potentially. As long as the hybrid brings *more listeners together with CM* and not alienate. Composers like Alma Deutscher should do that wonderfully. Other examples include quality film score music.


You make it sound like cute kids and film music are a new development. They've been around in massive numbers the whole century and yet CM is what it is.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

SimonNZ said:


> You make it sound like cute kids and film music are a new development. They've been around in massive numbers the whole century and yet CM is what it is.


CM is indeed what it is but the topic of the thread to me is the landscape of CM is changing for the better, and I certainly hope so and why I think that can be improved even more.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> CM is indeed what it is but the topic of the thread to me is the landscape of CM is changing for the better, and I certainly hope so and why I think that can be improved even more.


You and I have very different ideas about what a change for the better means.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> Composers like Alma Deutscher should do that wonderfully.


If Deutscher is the future, shoot me now.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Heh. This poor kid. I hope she never visits TC.

Art: she wouldn't be getting all this backlash if you weren't constantly holding her up as the Great White Hope.

...but you know this already.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> Yes potentially. As long as the hybrid brings *more listeners together with CM* and not alienate. Composers like Alma Deutscher should do that wonderfully.


Why do we need more low quality Classical era pastiche? There's already plenty of it on the Classical era itself


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: I sure don't see this incredible epiphany welling up from the masses in a new found love for classical music.

The same old stereotypes are being held by the same people. The US in particular is a culturally dense country, that quite often I am ashamed to call my home because of it.

Classical music is all but dying in the US except in the major cities that support great orchestras.

Move to Tampa or Baton Rouge and feel the difference.

Talking up classical music is a losers' game. Words mean nothing. The painful reality is classical orchestras are going under all over the country.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

dogen said:


> If Deutscher is the future, shoot me now.


Let's hope not:


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

hpowders said:


> OP: I sure don't see this incredible epiphany welling up from the masses in a new found love for classical music.
> 
> The same old stereotypes are being held by the same people. The US in particular is a culturally dense country, that quite often I am ashamed to call my home because of it.
> 
> ...


Our Utah Symphony is doing very well in fact financially. Not everything is gloomy here.

https://usuo.org/org/resources


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

albertfallickwang said:


> Here is a lovely track for enjoyment:


I can see why she might be relatively popular, but does she play any classical music?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

mmsbls said:


> I can see why she might be relatively popular, but does she play any classical music?


Nope but she makes for a wonderful music critic:


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

papsrus said:


> Not to be immodest, but I think I can safely take sole credit for the jump in CD sales, as I was buying none a year ago and today ... hand over fist.


I've done my share over the years


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

hpowders said:


> OP: I sure don't see this incredible epiphany welling up from the masses in a new found love for classical music.
> 
> The same old stereotypes are being held by the same people. The US in particular is a culturally dense country, that quite often I am ashamed to call my home because of it.
> 
> ...


My understanding is that the marketplace for all music has fractured into multiple genres with their core fans. no longer does everyone listen to the same stuff, as in the heydays of Sinatra, the Beatles, or perhaps Toscanini.
As a genere, Classical Music is holding it's own, and as more people surf the net or whatever and find it, some become converts. As a percentage of total sales, the decline in CM has probably bottomed out, and slowly increasing. It will never achieve "mass" popularity, but incremental gains are possible.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Classical music sales are only slumping with CD's but not digitally to me:

http://cafeaman.blogs.com/classicals_digital_leap/


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## Hmmbug (Jun 16, 2014)

Can someone tell me why Lindsey Stirling is considered "Classical Music"? Because she plays the violin?


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Ooh! An article that doesn't say CM is dying!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

hpowders said:


> OP: I sure don't see this incredible epiphany welling up from the masses in a new found love for classical music.
> 
> The same old stereotypes are being held by the same people. The US in particular is a culturally dense country, that quite often I am ashamed to call my home because of it.
> 
> ...


I'm curious about the actual numbers. How many have folded? Do we know?

But the truth is, I don't understand how Tampa or Baton Rouge ever could've had a professional orchestra. Maybe a chamber orchestra.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Hmmbug said:


> Can someone tell me why Lindsey Stirling is considered "Classical Music"? Because she plays the violin?


Proof that Stirling knows her classical music very well:

http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/201410/16239/


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

I don't think it's important whether or not Lindsey Stirling plays classical music or not. The fact is that she and the Piano Guys, and others, are introducing young people to instruments that are used traditionally in classical music. Their passion and enthusiasm for music has led many other young people to take up the violin, cello or piano. Many of these young people will likely be the future listeners of classical music. Stirling and the Piano Guys are extremely entertaining and fun to watch and listen to. Especially when compared to the majority of artists out there. Sulic & Hauser are another couple of musicians who play cello that are also having an impact. Check out their version of Michael Jackson's Smooth Criminal. It's excellent in my opinion!






Kevin


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Hmmbug said:


> Can someone tell me why Lindsey Stirling is considered "Classical Music"? Because she plays the violin?


Yes, and she also wiggles her backside. We need a rising star with highly diverse skills.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Bulldog said:


> Yes, and she also wiggles her backside. We need a rising star with highly diverse skills.


You forgot to mention that she's pretty damn good at wiggling that backside! Not many can play the violin and do that at the same time. 

Kevin


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> Yes, and she also wiggles her backside. We need a rising star with highly diverse skills.


And you can now enjoy 1.5 hours of Yuja Wang with her talented backside too.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

albertfallickwang said:


> And you can now enjoy 1.5 hours of Yuja Wang with her talented backside too.


I listen to classical music for the articles.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

science said:


> I listen to classical music for the articles.


In that case, we can relish four lovely hours of Vivaldi here. 




To enjoy both articles and backside for me is quite a remarkable experience. Sonic and visual pleasure at its finest.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Yuja Wang is a fox. I could just melt inside her beautiful Asian body.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

SeptimalTritone said:


> Yuja Wang is a fox. I could just melt inside her beautiful Asian body.


Nice. For that you deserve a lovely stare from her into your eyes.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Kevin Pearson said:


> I don't think it's important whether or not Lindsey Stirling plays classical music or not. The fact is that she and the Piano Guys, and others, are introducing young people to instruments that are used traditionally in classical music. Their passion and enthusiasm for music has led many other young people to take up the violin, cello or piano. Many of these young people will likely be the future listeners of classical music. Stirling and the Piano Guys are extremely entertaining and fun to watch and listen to. Especially when compared to the majority of artists out there. Sulic & Hauser are another couple of musicians who play cello that are also having an impact. Check out their version of Michael Jackson's Smooth Criminal. It's excellent in my opinion!


I think it _is_ important that the three best-selling classical albums in the US contain, basically, no classical music. By giving the bizarre impression that classical music is kinda like pop music only with different instruments, how does it serve all those musicians who don't make flashy videos to accompany their recordings? These young people allegedly being brought to classical music, aren't they just going to find _actual_ classical music to be really rather dull, or too difficult, or elitist? No matter how excellent that Michael Jackson cover is, how many of its fans will progress from liking that to liking Bach's solo cello suites? (never mind liking, what about even sitting through them?)

Lindsey Stirling et al are pop musicians, and there's nothing wrong with what they do. But calling their music classical is an insult to the small number of us for whom classical music is a passion.
Actually my first reaction was to equate this "crossover" with a minstrel show, but I immediately realised that was an offensively over-the-top comparison. Then I saw that this thread has moved on to the creepy objectification of women, so I could probably get away with it.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

SeptimalTritone said:


> Yuja Wang is a fox. I could just melt inside her beautiful Asian body.


Yuja Wang is beautiful, but I don't feel good reading that! Get a room, buddy!


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

at best it will just confuse the few with genuine interest in classical


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

science said:


> Yuja Wang is beautiful, but I don't feel good reading that! Get a room, buddy!


Oh well, sorry about the wooing folks... Even Christina gets freaked out too.






On a positive note, let us enjoy a cover done by the talented Lindsey.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

_This_ is how you do crossover:


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## Hmmbug (Jun 16, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> Proof that Stirling knows her classical music very well:
> 
> http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/201410/16239/


Not acceptable evidence. Knowing classical music (which, by the way, the article shows tentative evidence of at best) does not mean the person in question produces classical music. She doesn't produce classical music, or anything near it. Can anyone contest this?


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Nereffid said:


> I think it _is_ important that the three best-selling classical albums in the US contain, basically, no classical music. By giving the bizarre impression that classical music is kinda like pop music only with different instruments, how does it serve all those musicians who don't make flashy videos to accompany their recordings? These young people allegedly being brought to classical music, aren't they just going to find _actual_ classical music to be really rather dull, or too difficult, or elitist? No matter how excellent that Michael Jackson cover is, how many of its fans will progress from liking that to liking Bach's solo cello suites? (never mind liking, what about even sitting through them?)


The answer to your question is unknowable, but I can speak from my own personal experience and I bet my experience is similar to others in my age bracket who now listen to classical. When I was a teenager I was a fan of progressive rock, and still am to a much lesser degree. Artists like classically trained Rick Wakeman (YES) , Keith Emerson (ELP), Robert Lamm(Chicago), Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull) and other similar bands like Electric Light Orchestra, is what introduced me to classical music. I probably would not have given classical or jazz the light of day had it not been for these great rock musicians. Everybody starts somewhere. Not everyone, in fact probably most do not, just start out listening to classical. So, speaking from my own experience I suspect there will be quite a few young people who will move on and enjoy classical repertoire. Your statement is negative and assumes the worst instead of assuming the best. I'd prefer to believe that most younger people are not so narrow as you imply. I am almost 60 and the majority of the people I work with everyday are from 18 to 30 years of age and when we discuss music about 50% of them say they like classical listening to music sometimes. That is encouraging and I do my best to encourage and stimulate their interests further.

Kevin


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Here's another example of some young people making great music. I have to thank Albert for this one because I think he's the one who played this in last Friday night's Tinychat.






Kevin


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Hmmbug said:


> Not acceptable evidence. Knowing classical music (which, by the way, the article shows tentative evidence of at best) does not mean the person in question produces classical music. She doesn't produce classical music, or anything near it. Can anyone contest this?


Perhaps the question is not asking whether the artist makes classical music but asking ourselves how we define classical music.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Kevin Pearson said:


> Here's another example of some young people making great music. I have to thank Albert for this one because I think he's the one who played this in last Friday night's Tinychat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep I shared this last week. And Taylor Swift said, haters will always hate.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Kevin Pearson said:


> The answer to your question is unknowable, but I can speak from my own personal experience and I bet my experience is similar to others in my age bracket who now listen to classical. When I was a teenager I was a fan of progressive rock, and still am to a much lesser degree. Artists like classically trained Rick Wakeman (YES) , Keith Emerson (ELP), Robert Lamm(Chicago), Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull) and other similar bands like Electric Light Orchestra, is what introduced me to classical music. I probably would not have given classical or jazz the light of day had it not been for these great rock musicians. Everybody starts somewhere. Not everyone, in fact probably most do not, just start out listening to classical. So, speaking from my own experience I suspect there will be quite a few young people who will move on and enjoy classical repertoire. Your statement is negative and assumes the worst instead of assuming the best. I'd prefer to believe that most younger people are not so narrow as you imply. I am almost 60 and the majority of the people I work with everyday are from 18 to 30 years of age and when we discuss music about 50% of them say they like classical listening to music sometimes. That is encouraging and I do my best to encourage and stimulate their interests further.


To me, it makes sense that someone interested in prog rock would graduate to classical; prog rock requires listeners willing to pay attention, it's musically sophisticated, doesn't rely on a dance beat, and so on - all features of classical generally. 
But I really have a hard time conceiving how something like Lindsey Stirling's "Shatter Me" could have a similar impact because what stands out there is the pop vocals, pop beat, pop instrumentation - the presence of the violin seems more like window-dressing.
My point isn't that young people are incapable of appreciating classical music; simply that I don't see a connection between the current wave of "crossover" and classical music, and doubt that the things that are appealing about crossover (to young or old) are the same as the things that are appealing about classical music.
So promoting this particular kind of crossover (as distinct from what we might call the Bryce Dessner kind, which I entirely support) as a positive thing for classical strikes me as similar to producing chocolate bars containing 1% broccoli and assuring us that the kids who eat them will soon love vegetables.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

But 1% broccoli is at least better than -1% broccoli at least isn't it? The point is that crossover is a gateway to more complex forms of classical music and it is like eating a salad before the main course. It adds nutrients and flavor.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> But 1% broccoli is at least better than -1% broccoli at least isn't it? The point is that crossover is a gateway to more complex forms of classical music and it is like eating a salad before the main course. It adds nutrients and flavor.


My point, actually, is that the type of crossover you're talking about is really _not_ a gateway. 
Sure, broccoli is good for you, but any putative children who eat chocolate containing a trace amount of broccoli are not eating it for the broccoli. 
And I assume you would be scornful if a food product that was 99% chocolate and 1% broccoli was regarded as a vegetable?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> My point, actually, is that the type of crossover you're talking about is really _not_ a gateway.
> Sure, broccoli is good for you, but any putative children who eat chocolate containing a trace amount of broccoli are not eating it for the broccoli.
> And I assume you would be scornful if a food product that was 99% chocolate and 1% broccoli was regarded as a vegetable?


? Maybe ?

Not sure (here's a recipe for chocolate-covered broccoli for you: http://kidscooking.about.com/od/snacksdipsappetizers/r/chocobroccoli.htm)

But we can't measure the percentage of classical music within crossover. There is no mathematical way. And it's a lot more than 1%.

All music share the same common thread. Bars, measures, notes, time signatures, etc.

But still there are children who enjoy the veggies and as much as classical music. And tastes change over time and are not set in stone.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Has there ever been anyone on TC who've said they got into serious classical via crossover? I don't think I've ever seen that said.

Also nobody I know who loves CM got in that way.

The masses will get into CM the same way we, collectively, got into it - because we are part of "the masses".

I believe its a question of exposure.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

I think this video by the 2Cellos guys is very appropriate for this thread. It's a very good commentary about classical elitism.






Kevin


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

So should we dismiss Yo-Yo Ma's attempt to bridge genres as that dreadful crossover curse then?


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Saying that crossover isn't a gateway is not the same thing as dismissing it. There are many fine crossover albums (as well as many utterly horrible ones).


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

That Yo-Yo Ma sort of crossover is in my mind a different kind of thing than the opera highlights / popera sort of thing. I'm ordinarily indifferent to popera, but I am enthusiastic (in principle if not always in practice) about the fusion of distinct musical traditions. If we avoid armageddon for a century or so, I believe the future will look back on that sort of thing as the characteristic music of our time. Besides Ma, Joshua Bell, Bela Fleck, Kronos Quartet, Philip Glass also get into that a lot (and in the old days Ravi Shankar worked with some classical musicians), but my favorite work in this line may be that done by Savina Yannatou.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

My favorite crossover attempt ever is this:


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

But Albert, you seem intent on conflating two very different types of "crossover". Do you honestly not see any qualitative difference between Reich's Radio Rewrite and Lindsey Stirling? (By "qualitative" I don't mean one is of high quality and one of low, but that they possess different qualities)
And just to make it explicit: my objection is not to the music itself (though I do dislike what I've heard of Lindsey Stirling; I don't even think it's good pop music), but to the insistence that certain things that to me have little in common with classical music, are actually explicitly, unequivocally, classical music.

I know our perceptions are different. To me, Reich's work is obviously classical and Stirling's isn't. To someone else, maybe the other way round. But can we at least acknowledge that Reich and Stirling are traveling in entirely different directions, one from classical and one towards it (even if we disagree about how far they are from classical, and whether there's a "middle" for them to meet in)?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> But Albert, you seem intent on conflating two very different types of "crossover". Do you honestly not see any qualitative difference between Reich's Radio Rewrite and Lindsey Stirling? (By "qualitative" I don't mean one is of high quality and one of low, but that they possess different qualities)
> And just to make it explicit: my objection is not to the music itself (though I do dislike what I've heard of Lindsey Stirling; I don't even think it's good pop music), but to the insistence that certain things that to me have little in common with classical music, are actually explicitly, unequivocally, classical music.
> 
> I know our perceptions are different. To me, Reich's work is obviously classical and Stirling's isn't. To someone else, maybe the other way round. But can we at least acknowledge that Reich and Stirling are traveling in entirely different directions, one from classical and one towards it (even if we disagree about how far they are from classical, and whether there's a "middle" for them to meet in)?


Being a postmodernist in outlook, I think that crossover is broad enough to be inclusive of both highbrow and lowbrow media. The question is how strict we want our definition of classical music to be.

In fact,

This false distance is present everywhere: in spy films, in Godard, in modern advertising, which uses it continually as a cultural allusion. It is not really clear in the end whether this 'cool' smile is the smile of humour or that of commercial complicity. This is also the case with pop, and its smile ultimately encapsulates all its ambiguity: it is not the smile of critical distance, but the smile of collusion.
― Jean Baudrillard, The Consumer Society: Myths and Structures

All classical music albums are a form of consumer product in the end and regardless both hearkens to both the signifier and signified in the same boat. Is not von Karajan dependent of very mythological structure of his youthfulness just as much as Lindsey Stirling does?

I mean this:









is similar to this:









Both figures requires us the listeners to buy into their semiotics of their own mythologies in order to have us perpetuate their social and cultural status as icons.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> Both figures requires us the listeners to buy into their semiotics of their own mythologies in order to have us perpetuate their social and cultural status as icons.


Mmm... that is possibly the best ever explanation of why pop music is actually classical music. :lol:


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

albertfallickwang said:


> All classical music albums are a form of consumer product in the end and regardless both hearkens to both the signifier and signified in the same boat. Is not von Karajan dependent of very mythological structure of his youthfulness just as much as Lindsey Stirling does?
> 
> I mean this:
> 
> ...


Leaving aside the Barthes-esque jargon, comparing advertising for music (and you've been very selective in your choice) is not at all the same thing as comparing music. The Karajan album didn't become crossover just because of the motorbike on the cover, and I seriously doubt it was designed to make CM of interest to bikers.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

SimonNZ said:


> Leaving aside the Barthes-esque jargon, comparing advertising for music (and you've been very selective in your choice) is not at all the same thing as comparing music. The Karajan album didn't become crossover just because of the motorbike on the cover, and I seriously doubt it was designed to make CM of interest to bikers.


I have to be selective in my choice, being a former English major and not a scientist. The point is that both image strategies for Karajan and Stirling are for me the very same. They are designed to appeal to a broader audience and there is nothing wrong with that.

Why snivel the nose against Stirling and worship Karajan as classical conservatives? The point is that crossover is an artificial term used by marketing agents and not by people who love music in all its forms.

And for that let us enjoy another piece:


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> I have to be selective in my choice, being a former English major and not a scientist. The point is that both image strategies for Karajan and Stirling are for me the very same. They are designed to appeal to a broader audience and there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> Why snivel the nose against Stirling and worship Karajan as classical conservatives? The point is that crossover is an artificial term used by marketing agents and not by people who love music in all its forms.


Sigh, yes, but it's possible to "love music in all its forms" and still argue that Stirling's music doesn't possess the properties that distinguish classical music. That's all _I'm_ arguing. It's not about classical music being "better" than other music (it isn't, IMO).

So... why do _you_ think Stirling's album is classical music?


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> Both figures requires us the listeners to buy into their semiotics of their own mythologies in order to have us perpetuate their social and cultural status as icons.


I can't make sense of this sentence at all.


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

hpowders said:


> ... The US in particular is a culturally dense country, that quite often I am ashamed to call my home because of it.
> 
> Classical music is all but dying in the US except in the major cities that support great orchestras.
> 
> ...


I get it, but this is an overstatement. Orchestras are not going under all over the country.

Some American orchestras faced financial difficulties during the recession. So did automakers, banks and mom and pop stores throughout the land. I'd guess that orchestras in general faired far better than just about any other industry you can point to (except pawn shops, perhaps).

Some were forced to reorganize under bankruptcy protection laws. A handful went out of business (Honolulu, Louisville, Syracuse, Albuquerque) and in some of those places green shoots began to spring almost immediately to form new orchestras. Other orchestras faced some labor issues (Minneapolis, Philadelphia, Atlanta, San Francisco) but this doesn't amount to "classical orchestras are going under all over the country." They worked through it and all are in business today.

Severe cuts in state support, such as it is in the U.S., have had a negative impact, according to this Bloomberg article from 2012.

To quote: "Jesse Rosen, president and chief executive of the 850-member League of American Orchestras, said one of the drivers of recent financial difficulty for many groups is a decline in state and federal funding."

And America needs no defending, but a country with a diverse population with diverse interests and broad entertainment choices does not equate to a country that is "culturally dense."

I don't know about Baton Rouge, but Tampa has an orchestra, and an opera company I believe, as does my little town 50 miles to the south. Look at the summer music festivals in Savannah, Charleston, etc. Chamber music, not "full symphony orchestras," but the point is there are opportunities to enjoy classical music everywhere.

Classical music is alive and well, orchestras are undertaking a variety of outreach and educational efforts, and if crossover attracts young listeners, I'm all for it. Pops concerts have long been a staple for many orchestras.

And Albert, a photo on an album cover isn't the same thing as the music inside. You're reaching.

You guys can be a picky bunch sometimes. I came to classical from jazz. Try the jazz scene on for size and you'll think classical music is wildly popular.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> Sigh, yes, but it's possible to "love music in all its forms" and still argue that Stirling's music doesn't possess the properties that distinguish classical music. That's all _I'm_ arguing. It's not about classical music being "better" than other music (it isn't, IMO).
> 
> So... why do _you_ think Stirling's album is classical music?


The definition of classical music is:

Classical music is art music produced or rooted in the traditions of Western music (both liturgical and secular).

According to my ears, I think that Lindsey Stirling's music is very much rooted in the traditions of Western music. Now the question is whether this is art music? Even more so than an Eastern composer than Tan Dun which is rooted partially in Western music but combines Eastern music etc. etc.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> Now the question is whether this is art music?


Yes.
That is indeed the question.
In fact I was the one who asked it!
So... ?

There are no clearly defined boundaries; the vast majority of music that gets tagged "classical music" or "art music" is not going to be argued over, and neither is the vast majority of what gets tagged "not classical music" or "not art music", but there are still going to be grey areas. Peter Pears singing one of Britten's folk song arrangements? We tend to let that be classical. A folk singer singing one of those folk songs? Not classical. Willy Boskovsky conducting Johann Strauss? Classical. André Rieu conducting Johann Strauss? Iffy. And so on. So those boundaries do get to be a little arbitrary, and there's no one-size-fits-all definition of "classical music" (Merriam-Webster's defines classical music partly by saying it's not popular or folk music, which is unhelpful). Sometimes we just have to "know it when we hear it".
But I don't get why Lindsey Stirling should be in one of those grey areas. I don't hear classical music there. So I'm still curious as to why _you_ think Lindsey Stirling is classical.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Personally I wouldn't say that Lindsey Stirling is a classical musician. She does have some classical training however and has been influential in other young people taking an interest in the violin. This will necessitate those who pursue it to any degree to also get some classical music training. The guys from the Piano Guys regularly give education classes at schools to help young people learn to enjoy classical music, and they show that music does not have to be dull and elitist, but can be fun and exciting. How many young people today that enjoy their music will move on to serious classical listeners nobody knows but if some do that is a good thing.

Kevin


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

The landscape changes slowly and not for the better. I'm not buying what albert is selling, what the modernists are selling or what the traditionalists are selling. So I'm waiting for something else.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

How can the OP be made when provincial and sometimes even major US orchestras are in serious financial trouble?

This surely can't be a sign of "improving health" for classical music's future.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

hpowders said:


> How can the OP be made when provincial and sometimes even major US orchestras are in serious financial trouble?
> 
> This surely can't be a sign of "improving health" for classical music's future.


Can you be specific? Many orchestras were in financial difficulty a few years back during the recession but many of them have recovered nicely and have strong ticket sales. Granted many of those orchestras have had to reinvent themselves by subsidizing their income with pop concert sales etc. but they still exist. If doing such ensures their survival then I'm all for it. I won't buy their pop concert tickets but I will attend their classical concerts. Hopefully those who do attend the pop concerts have such a wonderful experience that they are willing to try a classical concert on their program in the future.

Kevin


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

hpowders said:


> How can the OP be made when provincial and sometimes even major US orchestras are in serious financial trouble?
> 
> This surely can't be a sign of "improving health" for classical music's future.


I'm with Kevin Pearson on this. (see above)

Any specifics you can offer about this serious financial trouble would be appreciated.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

If we are pessimistic about classical music's future then my listening will have become moot to me.

And btw, the Utah Symphony is doing very well. It's not because people aren't attend concerts, it's because of poor investment and terrible management that ruined a lot of these orchestras.


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