# Dukas, Massenet, Borodin, Delius, and Delibes



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

In the essay _Musical Canonization and Decanonization in the Twentieth Century_ by Anne Shreffler appears the following phrase: "while the music of Dukas, Massenet, Borodin, Delius and Delibes does not enjoy the respect it used to."

What are your favorite works of these composers?

Also, are there composers whose works have become less famous, and if so, what were their great works?

The author went on, "As if to compensate for those who have disappeared from the repertory, composers including Alexander von Zemlinsky, Franz Schreker, Karol Szymanowski, Erich Wolfgang Korngold, Viktor Ullmann, and Berthold Goldschmidt have been discovered or rediscovered."

I am not sure of the date of the essay, though it can't be earlier than 2007.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I think my own pick for composers who has fallen into comparative neglect would be Adam, whose work _Giselle_ used to be regarded as one of the greatest ballets, and now is almost unknown; followed by Gounod, whose 2 most famous operas dominated the late 19th century, but are now completely eclipsed by the operas of Wagner, Verdi, Puccini, Strauss and so on.

Delibes is a good choice too.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Joachim Raff is somewhat forgotten, and I'm rather fond of his 3rd symphony.


----------



## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

Dukas: _Villanelle_
Borodin: _In the Steppes of Central Asia_
Massenet: _Meditation_

I'll check the "Ds" repertoire later as I can't name something right off.


----------



## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Thanks to my local radio I listen to those regularly...no favorites in particular but there are some works I really like...Dukas and Borodin perhaps the most.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The only symphony by Dukas is a sadly neglected work, and in fact one of the finest of all French symphonies .
If you haven't heard it, get a recording posthaste, and you'll ask yourself where it has been all your life.
The EMI version with Jean Martinon and the French National radio orchestra is greatly admired, and there are several other recordings availkable .
The Met will be doing a production of Borodin's Prince Igor in the 2013-14 season , which is great news for lovers of Russian opera. Valery Gergiev will be the conductor .


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The only symphony by Dukas is a sadly neglected work, and in fact one of the finest of all French symphonies .
If you haven't heard it, get a recording posthaste, and you'll ask yourself where it has been all your life.
The EMI version with Jean Martinon and the French National radio orchestra is greatly admired, and there are several other recordings availkable .
The Met will be doing a production of Borodin's Prince Igor in the 2013-14 season , which is great news for lovers of Russian opera. Valery Gergiev will be the conductor .


----------



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I'm certainly not very happy about it, particularly for Borodin and Delius who were quite innovative at their time and exerted a considerable influence on the musical world. Although, the same could probably be said about many other composers now considered mediocre. However, I do like Zemlinsky and Schreker when they don't sound like film music, and the occasional Szymanowski when he gets serious.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I have two discs (or sets) by Dukas:



















I quite love the first set, but must admit that I haven't listened to the opera more than once, so I am not prepared to offer an opinion. What I do know of Dukas I find to be quite splendid.

Delius I quite love. In many ways I prefer him to Elgar... and maybe Vaughan-Williams. _A Village Romeo and Juliet_, the songs, _Sea Drift, On First Hearing a Cuckoo_, etc... Delius remains a major composer IMO.

Massenet? Werther, Thaïs, Cendrillon, Manon, etc... Massenet was one of the major composers of opera of the 19th century opera. Admittedly I am enamored of French music of the period, still I am certainly not alone in my assessment. One need only look at the Massenet recordings still in print...



*****


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Delibes?










This and the opera _Lakme_ are about it. Not a major composer... but some lovely ear candy.

Borodin? The essential works are probably all on the Decca Two-Fer "The Essential Borodin"... with the exception of the opera, _Prince Igor_, which kicks butt. That alone should keep him alive.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I like the famous aria in Lakme. This is what real beutiful music is about. Anybody can relate to it. Which is why even the composer is a relatively unknown, his one famous aria immortalises his name. No gimmicks, no nothing.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> One need only look at the Massenet recordings still in print...


It is possible that Massenet has 30 recordings in print and yet that he might've been still more honored in the past.


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

science said:


> It is possible that Massenet has 30 recordings in print and yet that he might've been still more honored in the past.


What if all thirty of them are recordings of the Meditation from Thaïs? :devil:

The only composer in the OP's list with whom I am really familiar is Borodin, and even with him I know only a handful of works. I like his second symphony, the two string quartets and "In the steppes of Central Asia."


----------



## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

I love the Manon with Netrebko and Villazon, and the Lakme from Australia with Emma Matthews, both on Blu ray.

I am far from the first to note that the Netrebko Villazon chemistry (or the appearance thereof)is an added dimension to the former, while the sheer musicality of Lake overcomes the silly plot.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> ... "while the music of Dukas, Massenet, Borodin, Delius and Delibes does not enjoy the respect it used to."
> 
> What are your favorite works of these composers?


Dukas - Sorcerer's Apprentice, La Peri, Symphony in C

Delius - Cello Concerto, Walk to the Paradise Garden, Paris

Borodin - Nocturne from String Quartet #2; Polovtsian Dances; Steppes of Central Asia



> Also, are there composers whose works have become less famous, and if so, what were their great works?


*Leopold Godowsky* is one, I have a Naxos 3 disc set (in the "Easy Listening Piano Classics" series, a compilation of old Marco Polo recordings) that includes parts of Triakontameron, his transcriptions of the likes of Bach, Rameau, Schubert, etc.; Java Suite; various salon/encore type works and his Metamorphosis on themes of Johann Strauss II. He was held in similar regard to Rachmaninov and Busoni around the turn of the 20th century but kind of disappeared from the mainstream repertoire. One reason was that his pieces can be very difficult to play. Marc-Andre Hamelin has done some great recordings, I have heard his account of the Strauss pieces, pretty amazing playing there (on yt last time I checked).


----------



## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

I love Dukas' symphony and his piano sonata


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

*Lalo's* opera "Le Roi Ys" was once famous, and one of the most performed opera during the second half of the 19th Century. Its currency went on well onto the 1950s and then it just dropped from the repertoire. It's barely known now.

*Anton Rubinstein's* "The Demon" was a staple in Russian theatres during the second half of the 19th Century, but barely holding on as we speak.

*Massenet's* operas, as mentioned before, are scarcely performed nowadays, despite the popularities they achieved about a century ago. *Lehar's* & *Offenbach's* operettas the same thing (The Merry Widow, Count of Luxembourg, Le Vie Parisienne for instances). Many of the once-famous Russian works likewise fell into oblivion over the generations (*Glazunov's* "The Seasons" and his symphonies, the symphonies, chamber works, and songs of *Myaskovsky*, works of *Gavriil Popov*, *Rimsky-Korsakov's *"The Golden Cockeral", works of *Medtner*, *Catoire*, *Rebikov*). And then consider *Sauer's*, * and Stojowski's* music, as well as *Dohnanyi's* works especially his "Nursery" Variations, etc.). *Bax* is likewise a victim of this despite the peak of his fame during the early-mid 1930s). And *Franz Schmidt* is also worth mentioning. He was like a modern day Bruckner in terms of popularity and reverence during his lifetime, but he's more of a footnote in music history. His Fourth Symphony ought to be much better known and performed. The pre-occupation with fashion by the 1920s/1930s, along with matters of tastes, profits, politics, reputation, were responsible for this.

And there are many more examples....

The recordings are admirably making up for these unfortunate trends. But the lack of live performances of these works are still being felt.


----------



## sdtom (Jul 7, 2014)

Piwikiwi said:


> I love Dukas' symphony and his piano sonata


I could never get excited about his Symphony.
Tom


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

dholling said:


> *Lalo's* opera "Le Roi Ys" was once famous, and one of the most performed opera during the second half of the 19th Century. Its currency went on well onto the 1950s and then it just dropped from the repertoire. It's barely known now.


The overture is still heard. What a wrap-up there at the end! There was a great mono recording of this on Mercury, by Paul Paray. Haven't been able to find a newer one as good. Anyway, here's Hermann Scherchen.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

science said:


> In the essay _Musical Canonization and Decanonization in the Twentieth Century_ by Anne Shreffler appears the following phrase: "while the music of Dukas, Massenet, Borodin, Delius and Delibes does not enjoy the respect it used to."
> 
> What are your favorite works of these composers?
> 
> ...


Dukas -- His Symphony in C is masterful

Massenet -- The more I hear of his music, the more I admire it. On the strength of the few pieces I knew, and liked, by this composer, I recently picked up the Decca box set, _The Massenet Edition_









The 23-CD set contains the operas _Manon _and _Werther_ and a lot of other stuff. I'm still exploring works. Yes ... the more I hear of Massenet, the more I admire his music.

Borodin -- long one of my favorite composers, on the strength of his two String Quartets, though the Symphonies are wonderful, too. But then, I'm a Chekhov fan. It's hard to read Chekhov (or watch his plays) and not hear Borodin; it's hard to listen to Borodin and not imagine a scene from Chekhov. Both of these Russian artists seem to lament the loss of "old Russia" even as they look expectantly, but with some trepidations, into the future of their country. In my work as a theatre sound designer, I've always known I should couple Borodin's music with action during Chekhov (think 2nd String Quartet and _Cherry Orchard_), but I've never had the opportunity ... yet. I'm still hopeful that I'll be called out of retirement to work on a _Cherry Orchard_, and I will bring along Borodin.

Delius and Delibes -- these two D's somewhat elude me. I admit to never having been a big fan of the ethereal sounding Delius, though on occasion, as when hearing a piece of his on public radio, I find myself admiring it. Still, I can't remember when I last dug out a Delius disc to play -- and I do have quite a few, for some reason. But I tend to prefer "noisy" music, and Delius just doesn't fit that bill. With Delibes ... I have long had LP copies of the two great ballets: _Sylvia_ & _Coppelia_. These albums go back several decades to a time when I didn't have many records, and so played the life out of these two ballets. I haven't heard either one for several years, but I'm sure were I to put on the records, I could probably start to hum the music along with the stereo's sound. This thread makes me feel a bit guilty for neglecting these old warhorses. I'm a man with a fondness for horses (Virgil and Ovid will attest), if not for war, but I am remiss for neglecting Delibes. I shall revisit him soon. I promise.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

KenOC said:


> The overture is still heard. What a wrap-up there at the end! There was a great mono recording of this on Mercury, by Paul Paray. Haven't been able to find a newer one as good. Anyway, here's Hermann Scherchen.


Well, even the overture ceased being a staple repertoire by the 1980s. Look at this revealing NYT article.

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/04/16/a...dule=Search&mabReward=relbias:w,{"2":"RI:13"}


----------



## Guest (Jul 12, 2014)

Dukas: Piano Sonata, Villanelle
Delius: Florida Suite
Massenet: Meditation
Delibes: meh

but...

Borodin: Polovtsian Dances, Cello Sonata, Steps of Central Asia, String Quartet #2, Symphony #2, various songs, Prince Igor

I consider Borodin to be a major minor composer whose output, though limited, was generally of a very high quality. In addition, he seems to have been an important figure in his nation's musical history. He hardly seems to belong in the same list as the others.


----------



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

*Dukas* - Unfortunately I don't know much about Dukas. I have yet to hear much beyond _The Sorcerer's Apprentice_. Obviously I like _The Sorcerer's Apprentice_, but I'd like to hear more from him, so I can't really give an answer to that yet.
*Massenet* - One of my favorite underrated composers. My favorite works by him have to be the opera _Manon_ and the ballet _Manon_, based on various pieces of his, including his Orchestral Suites.
*Borodin* - I've always liked Borodin and my favorite works have to be Prince Igor (particularly the opening chorus and the Polovtsian Dances with chorus), and his Symphony No. 2. I also heard some music from his little-known Petite Suite and enjoyed it.
*Delius* - I don't know much from Delius either, but I really liked _A Village Romeo and Juliet_. 
*Delibes* - Delibes is my favorite underrated ballet composer. _Coppélia_ and _Sylvia_ are excellent.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

BPS said:


> I consider *Borodin* to be a major minor composer whose output, though limited, was generally of a very high quality. In addition, he seems to have been an important figure in his nation's musical history. He hardly seems to belong in the same list as the others.


Very influential to the French (and probably to Sibelius too), you can hear echoes of Borodin's music (particularly his piano pieces and his songs) in early Debussy and Ravel. Even in 'La mer' you can still find passages reminiscent of the adagio of Borodin's Symphony No.1 as well as his songs 'The Sea Princess' and 'The Sea'.



wikipedia said:


> Les Apaches or (Société des Apaches) was a group of French musicians, writers and artists which formed around 1900.
> The name was taken up by the group after inadvertently bumping into a newspaper seller who exclaimed "Attention les apaches". They soon adapted the name, which literally refers to the Native American Apache tribe, but had the additional meaning in French of 'hooligans'. *Ravel suggested that they adopt the first melody of the Borodin 2nd Symphony as their theme, an idea with which they all agreed.* The group met each Saturday, most often at the home of Sordes; alternatively, they would meet at that of Klingsor.







*Do not miss his songs!* He's got all the graceful impressionistic 'secundal' harmonies in there! Spotify link: https://play.spotify.com/album/2PmeMcbznWXZKOy4SPjExZ 
;
As for *Delius*, one must listen to *'A Mass of Life'* (perhaps his greatest work) before judging.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Oh, and one more example,

*Jacques Fromental Halévy's* "La Juive" (The Jewess), his grand opera in five acts. It had a very good currency after its 1865 premiere (from what I read, Wagner admitted being influenced by it in his younger years). It was produced over 600 times by the turn of the Twentieth Century. It is barely known now (although both Vienna & the MET produced it about a decade ago, and there are fine recordings of this very fine work).


----------

