# Help with listening to tone poems?



## Miserable Sod (May 2, 2017)

Tone poems are the one genre of music I just don't get any appreciation from. Symphonies, String Quartets, Concertos, Sonatas... All these genres of music I fully appreciate. But I just don't get the tone poem. How am I supposed to listen to this music and how do I appreciate these masterpieces from my favourite composers who's other works I enjoy immensely?


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Let me ask you good sir, how it differs? you sit and listen to music playing and see that there is a thematic or picture-esque conception (sometimes a vague story) surrounding it. What more could there possibly be to it, really?


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Some tone poems are highly programmatic, depicting elements of a story with extreme specificity. In such works, it's often helpful to be familiar with the story beforehand, in order to understand the descriptive effects that occur in the music. 

For instance, in Strauss's Don Quixote there's a section which imitates the bleating of sheep. If the listener didn't know the story of Don Quixote mistaking the sheep for an army, the music might not make much sense. In fact, the bleating sounds would probably sound confusing and random unless the listener understood how they fit into the narrative.

Similarly, in Liszt's Mazeppa, there are some loud timpani strokes which depict the hero falling off his horse; these thuds are justified by the narrative of the story, but if heard as absolute music they might seem out of place.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I don't care much for tone poems either, if they are too specific in their depiction of a specific story (like the examples Bettina mentions). In a sense, a lot of movie soundtrack music is also programmatic, and that is why such music also often fails to stand on its own. To me, a piece of music first and foremost has to work as music, and should be able to stand on its own, apart from its extra-musical associations. And thus I am not at all fond of Strauss' tone poems, and it might also explain my dislike of opera.

Alternatively, a piece of music should at least work without the listener needing to have detailed knowledge of the story. Beethoven's pastoral symphony comes to mind; most of it can be enjoyed without knowing what it depicts, though I suppose the storm sequence works best if one knows he is depicting a storm.

But I think there are a lot of such music that is not too specific in its attempts to portray specific things. With a lot of it, it is useful to have some background, but it is not absolutely essential. Holst's _The Planets_ come to mind: he portrays the planets' astrological personalities, but you don't need huge detail to get what he is on about. If you know Mars is the bringer of war, the piece makes perfect sense, and even if you don't, the violent and martial character can still be enjoyed. Or take Rachmaninoff's Isle of the Dead: I don't think one actually needs to know anything about it to enjoy the evocative music - you can make up your own story or just enjoy it as a piece of abstract music. Another piece that works well on its own would be Rimsky-Korsakov's _Scheherazade_; I for one have no idea of the details of any of the stories depicted, but have always enjoyed the work.

I am now also reminded of Mahler's symphonies, which are to some extent tone poems, except he doesn't tell you what exactly he is depicting (presumably cows, with that infamous bit containing real cow bells!) His music works as abstract music too, or you can make up your own imagery. But you can do that with any music: if you want to add a story to a Bach fugue, no one can stop you, and if you want to see a story different from the one the composer is setting to music, you can also do it.

It occurs to me that there is actually not a sharp line between programmatic music and abstract music. There are composers that go too far in their tone painting (by my own aesthetic) but also a lot that don't.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Miserable Sod said:


> Tone poems are the one genre of music I just don't get any appreciation from. Symphonies, String Quartets, Concertos, Sonatas... All these genres of music I fully appreciate. But I just don't get the tone poem. How am I supposed to listen to this music and how do I appreciate these masterpieces from my favourite composers who's other works I enjoy immensely?


If you do like Strauss you could try his tone poems, they are really great pieces.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think tone poems are (or can be) excellent bite-sized pieces of music. Beethoven wrote a few favorites -- the Coriolan Overture, the Egmont ditto. And even the Leonore Overture #3, divorced from its opera, is a fine tone poem.

Liszt did a few goodies, R. Strauss of course, and we can't forget Dvorak here!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Since you appreciate symphonies and not symphonic poems, maybe you should try a few programmatic symphonies first.

Suggestions: Liszt "Faust", Gliere 3, Vaughan Williams 2, Hovhaness 50.

If you like Sibelius' symphonies, his symphonic poems (starting with the best, Tapiola) would also be a good starting point.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I enjoy certain tone poems because they also have the ability to create visuals or scenes in one's mind. There's the combination of the sound and the images. An example of that with a symphony is the 4th Symphony of Sibelius that for me is like walking through a winter landscape, and the same type of experience on simultaneous levels is possible with certain tone poems. And of course some performances are more vivid than others. The three most common ways of experiencing something is through sound, or one's kinesthetic sense, or one's visual sense – sometimes only one, or there may be a combination of two or three levels. It's usually different for everyone. So if the visuals come, let yourself see it. If you sense a certain kind of atmosphere, let yourself feel it. If an image comes to mind, let yourself see it. There's no right or wrong, only the freedom.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

I simply adore tone poems, in fact they're my favourite thing to listen to after baroque music. I love the feel that tone poems have, the way they can conjure images and the fact they aren't tied to a structure like symphonies are. Those impressionistic tone poems of the late 19th early 20th centuries just do it for me every time.


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## bigboy (May 26, 2017)

Others have suggested some really good "gateway" tone poems, I'll throw in one of my favorites: Eine Alpensinfonie (Strauss).

Maybe as a tone poem this is perhaps a bit more transparent in what is going on with the music in a programmatic sense since Strauss has helpfully labeled all his sections!

As a side note, I'm not sure exactly why he wanted to call it a symphony, to my mind it has little in common with the symphony form.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I just listen to them as purely orchestral music.

Get 10 musical novices in a room and play Don Quixote and La Mer and ask them to identify what the music depicts and nobody will know.

Therefore, simply relax and enjoy symphonic "poems" as simply a different form of orchestral work as sonata form/symphonies.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Listen to a wide variety of them, perhaps something will click there with pure musical qualities alone. There's Liszt, Dvorak, Smetana, Sibelius, Strauss...


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

hpowders said:


> I just listen to them as purely orchestral music.
> 
> Therefore, simply relax and enjoy symphonic "poems" as simply a different form of orchestral work as sonata form/symphonies.


That's what I ended up doing.

I tried the whole Strauss thing; the Domestica burned me out. I could never figure out what was going on. Apparently somewhere in there, a couple is doing the wild thing, and I can't even pick up on that. I do have a score of Zarathustra, and it is heavily marked up so I'm not completely bumfuzzled.

But for me, tone poems are frustrating and require too much work to track the details. I just think that La Mer is really a symphony, and I'm happy with that.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> That's what I ended up doing.
> 
> I tried the whole Strauss thing; the Domestica burned me out. I could never figure out what was going on. Apparently somewhere in there, a couple is doing the wild thing, and I can't even pick up on that. I do have a score of Zarathustra, and it is heavily marked up so I'm not completely bumfuzzled.
> 
> But for me, tone poems are frustrating and require too much work to track the details. I just think that La Mer is really a symphony, and I'm happy with that.


Yeah. One should simply enjoy it as fine orchestral music. As Mr. Spock would say, "It's the logical thing to do."


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Some tone poems are highly programmatic, depicting elements of a story with extreme specificity. In such works, it's often helpful to be familiar with the story beforehand, in order to understand the descriptive effects that occur in the music.
> 
> For instance, in Strauss's Don Quixote there's a section which imitates the bleating of sheep. If the listener didn't know the story of Don Quixote mistaking the sheep for an army, the music might not make much sense. In fact, the bleating sounds would probably sound confusing and random unless the listener understood how they fit into the narrative.
> 
> Similarly, in Liszt's Mazeppa, there are some loud timpani strokes which depict the hero falling off his horse; these thuds are justified by the narrative of the story, but if heard as absolute music they might seem out of place.


Tone poems are "highly programmatic" on paper. Nobody can identify what the music is trying to depict without knowledge of the music or program in advance.

Therefore, tone poems should be enjoyed as simply another form of purely orchestral music in addition to sonata form/symphonies and the brain shouldn't be racking over "what is this music trying to say"?


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

What Bettina said is great advice. Strauss is often the first person people think of when they think of tone poems, but I'm not a huge fan of some of famed Strauss tone poems like An Alpine Symphony and Also sprach Zarathustra. The Symphonia Domestica is one I do like, however. Liszt composed many fine tone poems in my opinion. Hunnenschlacht (The Battle of the Huns) is probably my favorite Liszt tone poem and is easily understandable with just a couple of minutes of research. Saint-Saëns' Danse macabre is another interesting choice. I'm not sure if it's technically a tone poem, but Mendelssohn's The Hebrides is along the lines of a tone poem and is quite interesting even for those who don't understand the backstory. 

Perhaps the most interesting tone poems, at least to my ears, come from Ottorino Respighi. The Roman Trilogy (or the Roman Thrillogy as I call it) would be the first thing that comes to mind. Pines of Rome and Roman Festivals are two of my favorites. Would you know that Respighi is describing pine trees if you just heard the music without getting any other background information? Probably not, but it's still powerful music regardless. Respighi's Vetrate di Chiesa (Church Windows) is lesser known, but is amazing IMO. Listen to the López-Cobos/Cincinnati recording on Telarc and I have a feeling that you will get blown away! 

There are other fine tone poems that are enjoyable as regular orchestral music, but hopefully some of these recommendations of mine will help.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

hpowders said:


> Tone poems are "highly programmatic" on paper. Nobody can identify what the music is trying to depict without knowledge of the music or program in advance.
> 
> Therefore, tone poems should be enjoyed as simply another form of purely orchestral music in addition to sonata form/symphonies and the brain shouldn't be racked over "what is this music trying to say"?


Completely agreed! I think programs of tone poems are more there for the inspiration of the composer than for any kind of clarification of the listener, and while they can certainly be listened to with their "programmatic" elements in mind, they have just as much a set form and structure as "abstract" music. Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet for example is essentially a movement in sonata form with an introduction and coda, and can be enjoyed purely as such.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

I would always point people to Falla's Night in the Gardens of Spain or Escales by Ibert. If you haven't heard Debussy's Prelude to the afternoon of a Faun or Dukas Sorcerers Apprentice please do so. For my taste the French and Spanish composers represent the zenith of the symphonic poem.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Can someone give examples of works the composer specifically intended to be tone poems? I am coming up blank.

Music that too literally depicts something is not my favorite. I much prefer music that isn't obviously "about" anything except itself.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

JeffD said:


> Can someone give examples of works the composer specifically intended to be tone poems? I am coming up blank.
> 
> Music that too literally depicts something is not my favorite. I much prefer music that isn't obviously "about" anything except itself.


Liszt is said to have invented the term "tone poem." All of his are "about" something. Ditto Dvorak, who wrote several very good ones near the end of his life.

I'm struggling to think of something I'd call a tone poem that's purely abstract music... Even Shostakovich wrote one -- exactly one. It's a celebration of the revolution titled "October," pretty programmatic. Not to be confused with his Symphony No. 2 with a similar name...

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphonic_poem


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

JeffD said:


> Can someone give examples of works the composer specifically intended to be tone poems? I am coming up blank.
> 
> Music that too literally depicts something is not my favorite. I much prefer music that isn't obviously "about" anything except itself.


What Isle of the Dead by Rachmaninoff.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2017)

Tone poems I get. It's showy-offy concertos that I don't get. All that trilling and running up and down the keyboard. Ugh.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

KenOC said:


> I'm struggling to think of something I'd call a tone poem that's purely abstract music... ]


Honegger wrote three what he called "symphonic movements". The first two are obvious tone poems (Pacific 231 and Rugby), so maybe one could call the unnamed third one an abstract tone poem??


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