# Questions You've Always Wondered About



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

These are the classical music related questions you've always wondered about. They can be questions that someone here may have an answer for, questions for which there may be no clear answers or just rhetorical questions.

For instance, I've have pondered over:

Why did a composer who was known for his many Piano Sonatas, Piano Trios and numerous symphonies never compose a piano concerto? That composer: Schubert!

Why is it that western Classical Music has been embraced by so many different cultures (particularly those in Asia) even though it is often quite different than their native music?


----------



## motoboy (May 19, 2008)

If Brahms was so venomous toward Bruckner students and Wagnerites, why did he entertain Mahler and why would Mahler even bother to go see Brahms?


----------



## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

DaveM said:


> Why did a composer who was known for his many Piano Sonatas, Piano Trios and numerous symphonies never compose a piano concerto? That composer: Schubert!


No great mystery. He most probably did not receive a commission to write a piano concerto. Remember that he was not that famous as a composer in his own day, and was known mainly as a composer of lieder. His fame as a wider-ranging composer took several decades after his death to develop, with the help of Robert Schumann and later on Brahms.

Writing lieder kept him very busy. This was his chief interest. He practically never stopped, and was famous for writing out sketches on table napkins whilst out dining out with his friends at restaurants. The waiters knew that Schubert had been there on account of his tell-tale scribblings. He revolutionised the genre, and there's never been a more fantastic song composer than Schubert (personal opinion, don't ask for any objective proof!).

Not only that but he wrote a great deal of sacred music: 6 masses, and lots of other stuff including an oratorio.

When he wasn't engaged on those activities, he was often busy writing operas and other theatrical works, none of which unfortunately hit the big time, much to his disappointment, but he tried very hard. This was due to poor libretti. He made quite a few attempts but most were flops. Some very nice music nevertheless survives, e.g. Rosamunde, and several arias and duets from a few operas.

He composed quite a bit of orchestral work, e.g. several overtures, and various orchestral violin works, which are very good.

He wrote a good deal of other chamber music apart from piano trios that you mention, including several well known string quartets, a piano quintet, and the wonderful string quintet which is probably his greatest work next to the magnificent Symphony No 9 which I utterly adore.

Nor should it be overlooked that he wrote a great deal of work for piano duo. I don't think that any composer wrote more in this genre, and there are some terrific gems among these works.

All in all, he wrote very widely.

Lastly, and most obviously he died at 31. Had he lived longer .........It's very sad.

Schubert is the composer I love the most but he's not my favourite (that's Mozart). Last summer I visited the Central Cemetery in Vienna, together with some friends, and we sobbed our hearts out at the graves of Beethoven, Brahms and Schubert, and the memorial to Mozart (who is not there, as no one knows where he's buried), all of which are within a short distance of each other.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Main Question: What am I even doing here?


----------



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

DaveM said:


> These are the classical music related questions you've always wondered about. They can be questions that someone here may have an answer for, questions for which there may be no clear answers or just rhetorical questions.
> 
> For instance, I've have pondered over:
> 
> ...


I cannot answer the first question but I think there is a lot of factors from the composer's environment that influence his/her composing toward a particular style of music.

The second question is interesting. A lot Asian are influence by the Western Culture especially in the 60's to the 80's. They look towards the western societies as more progressive and forward thinking culture. Being an Asian, I was "forced" to study and play the piano when I was small and I come across names such as Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert and Bach. This is a part of family expectation. Parents sent their children to learn piano even thought they know very little about music. This phenomenon still exist today. Many parents send their kids to learn multiple instruments and play in school orchestras. Maybe this is a way of "keeping up with the Jones". Fortunately, some become good musicians and even play professionally. Play a western instrument is "seen" to be westernized but honestly, music did not change much in people thoughts and native traditional. The debate sometimes becomes - how do you want to "prove" to others that you are westernized in a classy way?

I hope I did not offend anyone. My 2 cents....


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Another reason why Schubert never wrote a piano concerto is because he was not a virtuoso like Mozart and Beethoven, who wrote piano concertos for themselves to play . Schubert was an okay pianist , no more .


----------



## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

motoboy said:


> If Brahms was so venomous toward Bruckner students and Wagnerites, why did he entertain Mahler and why would Mahler even bother to go see Brahms?


According to Jan Swafford, Brahms was not at all venomous toward Wagner. He owned and highly prized the original hand written manuscript of the "Venusberg" music from Tannhäuser (a score that he eventually sold back to Wagner when Wagner needed it for a production of the opera) and owned a deluxe printing of the complete score of that same opera. He was known to have been influenced by his study of Wagner's scores particularly in matters of orchestration.

It was merely the cultlike milieu surrounding Wagner (which Wagner indeed cultivated) that Brahms found off-putting.

His attitude toward Mahler was based, similarly, on a recognition of his exceptional musical gifts, apparent to him even at that early stage of Mahler's career.


----------



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

pcnog11 said:


> I cannot answer the first question but I think there is a lot of factors from the composer's environment that influence his/her composing toward a particular style of music.
> 
> The second question is interesting. A lot Asian are influence by the Western Culture especially in the 60's to the 80's. They look towards the western societies as more progressive and forward thinking culture. Being an Asian, I was "forced" to study and play the piano when I was small and I come across names such as Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert and Bach. This is a part of family expectation. Parents sent their children to learn piano even thought they know very little about music. This phenomenon still exist today. Many parents send their kids to learn multiple instruments and play in school orchestras. Maybe this is a way of "keeping up with the Jones". Fortunately, some become good musicians and even play professionally. Play a western instrument is "seen" to be westernized but honestly, music did not change much in people thoughts and native traditional. The debate sometimes becomes - how do you want to "prove" to others that you are westernized in a classy way?
> 
> I hope I did not offend anyone. My 2 cents....


I would like to add that the range of western classical music from the lowest A to the highest C provided a dynamic platform for composing. Most Asian music do not have that range. Such range gave a lot of musical space and make classical music sounds rich, from a piano sonata to a full scale symphony or opera. This is much more pleasing to the ear with the sense of richness in sound. Also, the scale and keys of classical music provide another dimension of complex emotional expression that Asian native music lacks. This may not be the reason why Asian embrace classical music but it is certainly an enabler.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Main Question: What am I even doing here?


Got tired of posting on wrist watch sites?


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

motoboy said:


> If Brahms was so venomous toward Bruckner students and Wagnerites, why did he entertain Mahler and why would Mahler even bother to go see Brahms?


Apparently, once one got past the rude and tactless facade, Brahms was actually a very kind and decent man. And, more to the point, both financially well off and generous - he helped lots of younger composers, notably Dvorak. So I would think lots of younger composers would want to go see him, and he was not above throwing a good party. He even received Debussy once, though apparently the two didn't really hit it off.

As for Schubert and piano concertos, as someone mentioned, at the time composers of piano concertos mostly performed their own works, and Schubert wasn't up to that. Still, he did compose works for piano that were a bit above his own ability to play (the Wanderer fantasy comes to mind). It would have been wonderful if he had composed some concertos, and not just for piano either. Alas, alas. The Grim Reaper got hold of him before he got around to doing all the stuff we would have wanted him to do.

And then they wonder why I don't like the Reaper very much. I mean, I know the poor guy's just doing his job and all, but jeez. This is Schubert we're talking about here...


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

A question of my own: just how the heck does anyone ever learn to audiate a score at a glance? I can't even do it with simple tunes, and not for lack of trying... ;-)


----------



## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

I've sometimes wondered what an opera composed by Brahms would have sounded like, it's subject, who would have written the libretto, ect. But I'm funny that way.


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Antiquarian said:


> I've sometimes wondered what an opera composed by Brahms would have sounded like, it's subject, who would have written the libretto, ect. But I'm funny that way.


I'm very, very relieved that Brahms didn't waste good time, that could be spent on writing chamber music, on opera instead.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DaveM said:


> Why is it that western Classical Music has been embraced by so many different cultures (particularly those in Asia) even though it is often quite different than their native music?


I will take a guess that this is because most of those cultures' own music is more the folk music variety?


----------



## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Antiquarian said:


> I've sometimes wondered what an opera composed by Brahms would have sounded like, it's subject, who would have written the libretto, ect. But I'm funny that way.


At a guess I'd say that he wouldn't have been very good at it.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> Why is it that western Classical Music has been embraced by so many different cultures (particularly those in Asia) even though it is often quite different than their native music?


By western you mean Europe I presume, that's where it all begone.


----------



## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

Chronochromie said:


> At a guess I'd say that he wouldn't have been very good at it.


Or it may have been another _Leonore_. Yeah, it's these imponderables that it's best to dwell not too long on. I can't imagine Brahms composing more than one opera. Life's too short.


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

I hope it's OK to use this thread to ask questions about TC members. Why does hpowders like Schubert's G Major quartet, but not the quintet? 

Any replies from hpowders (or guesses from other members) are much appreciated! I enjoy reading about his musical tastes and I'm looking forward to further information.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Pugg said:


> By western you mean Europe I presume, that's where it all begone.


Yes. No Europe, no classical music!


----------



## sloth (Jul 12, 2013)

Good music is for everyone, where it comes from doesn't really matter. There are more and more people in the us and in here in europe that are interested in other musical traditions. I for instance am learning to play shakuhachi and bansuri flute... 
music in a way is a universal language, hybridation has always been a highly creative process.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

pcnog11 said:


> I would like to add that the range of western classical music from the lowest A to the highest C provided a dynamic platform for composing. Most Asian music do not have that range. Such range gave a lot of musical space and make classical music sounds rich, from a piano sonata to a full scale symphony or opera. This is much more pleasing to the ear with the sense of richness in sound. Also, the scale and keys of classical music provide another dimension of complex emotional expression that Asian native music lacks. This may not be the reason why Asian embrace classical music but it is certainly an enabler.


An Indian lady told me with pride that each note is divided into 12 other notes (in trad womens singing) - so is harder than western music


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Why is there so much time spent by a lot of posters on Talk Classical Wagner threads?

Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms and Bach were arguably better composers than Wagner, so why do their threads get relatively little interest compared to Wagner?


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I hope it's OK to use this thread to ask questions about TC members. Why does hpowders like Schubert's G Major quartet, but not the quintet?
> 
> Any replies from hpowders (or guesses from other members) are much appreciated! I enjoy reading about his musical tastes and I'm looking forward to further information.


hpowders responds: Like the Ninth Symphony, I find the string quintet (which I'm certain Bettina is referring to) repetitive and rhythmically tedious. The G Major Quartet moves me. For me it is Schubert's greatest work. The music is higher quality, IMHO. The string quintet puts me to sleep.

Hey Schubert! You want to write a successful string quintet that hpowders will appreciate? Try 2 violas next time, NOT two cellos! Guaranteed to sound better! No charge for this, by the way.


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

hpowders said:


> hpowders responds: Like the Ninth Symphony, I find the string quintet (which I'm certain Bettina is referring to) repetitive and rhythmically tedious. The G Major Quartet moves me. For me it is Schubert's greatest work. The music is higher quality, IMHO. The string quintet puts me to sleep.
> 
> Hey Schubert! You want to write a successful string quintet that hpowders will appreciate? Try 2 violas next time, NOT two cellos! No charge for this, by the way.


Thanks for the reply. I agree with you that the 2 cellos bog things down. Two violas would be much nicer.

That brings me to a follow-up question: why did Schubert use two cellos instead of two violas? Does anyone have any guesses?


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Thanks for the reply. I agree with you that the 2 cellos bog things down. Two violas would be much nicer.
> 
> That brings me to a follow-up question: why did Schubert use two cellos instead of two violas? Does anyone have any guesses?


Because he knew it would annoy me?


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Would Beethoven have become just another second-rate composer if his hearing stayed terrific and he got married, say, in his mid-20's? Ries-ky propositions for a potentially great composer, about to be turning deeply inward, IMHO.

My answer. He probably would have had a nervous breakdown.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

DaveM said:


> Why is it that western Classical Music has been embraced by so many different cultures (particularly those in Asia) even though it is often quite different than their native music?


The British Empire, and other colonial influences.


----------



## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

DaveM said:


> Why is it that western Classical Music has been embraced by so many different cultures (particularly those in Asia) even though it is often quite different than their native music?


Along these lines, I've always wondered why the Japanese love Bach so much (at least the cultured segment). They have many Bach societies, and love to perform and attend his sacred works. It just seems so antithetical to their culture and musical tradition.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

As ethnocentric as they tend to be, the Japanese seem to have no problem adopting something of high quality that some other culture developed (like Western diatonic music, the short story . . .) as long as doing so doesn't correspondingly denigrate something of quality their culture developed (Noh Theatre, Samurai swords.

Back during the Sapporo Olympics, when CBS single-handedly proved to the world that Americans were cretins by cutting away from Seiji Ozawa closing the opening ceremonies with a performance of the choral part of the Ninth Symphony (as uninteresting? Superfluous? Boring?), one thing they missed was that virtually every Japanese in the stadium was singing along, in German!


----------



## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

^^^ Interesting background and perspective. ^^^


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

MarkW said:


> As ethnocentric as they tend to be, the Japanese seem to have no problem adopting something of high quality that some other culture developed (like Western diatonic music, the short story . . .) as long as doing so doesn't correspondingly denigrate something of quality their culture developed (Noh Theatre, Samurai swords.
> 
> Back during the Sapporo Olympics, when CBS single-handedly proved to the world that Americans were cretins by cutting away from Seiji Ozawa closing the opening ceremonies with a performance of the choral part of the Ninth Symphony (as uninteresting? Superfluous? Boring?), one thing they missed was that virtually every Japanese in the stadium was singing along, in German!


I think Beethoven's ninth symphony is used for new years celebrations in Japan. Then I really dislike that people say Asia like it was one thing. Talibans in Afghanistan are Asians they have very little interest in Western classical music.


----------



## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Sloe said:


> I think Beethoven's ninth symphony is used for new years celebrations in Japan. Then I really dislike that people say Asia like it was one thing. Talibans in Afghanistan are Asians they have very little interest in Western classical music.


Yes, this seems to be almost a Japanese phenomenon in Asia. Seiji Ozawa is a good example, as mentioned. Other nearby archipelagos (Philippines, Indonesia) come no where near having such interest in western classical music. It may have something to do with the advanced nature of the Japanese economy and standard of living that allows for a leisure class to pursue and acquire tastes for world culture. Or something unique about the Japanese culture itself.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Bettina said:


> That brings me to a follow-up question: why did Schubert use two cellos instead of two violas? Does anyone have any guesses?


The better question is why would anyone ever use two violas if they could have two cellos!  Cellos have a bigger useful range and a better high register than violas.

Joke answer: With two violists there would be way to much drool on the stage.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Richard8655 said:


> Yes, this seems to be almost a Japanese phenomenon in Asia. Seiji Ozawa is a good example, as mentioned. Other nearby archipelagos (Philippines, Indonesia) come no where near having such interest in western classical music. It may have something to do with the advanced nature of the Japanese economy and standard of living that allows for a leisure class to pursue and acquire tastes for world culture. Or something unique about the Japanese culture itself.


It isn't just the Japanese. Chinese, Koreans, and Indonesians are everywhere in classical music and in major orchestras.


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> The better question is why would anyone ever use two violas if they could have two cellos!  Cellos have a bigger useful range and a better high register than violas.
> 
> Joke answer: With two violists there would be way to much drool on the stage.


I agree with you about the advantages offered by two cellos. I'm still wondering, though, why Schubert departed from what seems to have been the standard quintet scoring. As far as I know, the vast majority of Viennese quintets (Mozart, Pleyel, Beethoven, Spohr), are scored for two violas.

My question is: was Schubert drawing on any kind of "cello quintet" tradition (possibly Boccherini?), or was he employing innovative scoring to serve a particular artistic aim? Or perhaps both?


----------



## sloth (Jul 12, 2013)

Here are my questions: 
1. Why do we always feel the need to classify composers, pieces, music genres...? 
2. Shouldn't music be freed from categories in order to appreciate its uniqueness?


----------



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

sloth said:


> Here are my questions:
> 1. Why do we always feel the need to classify composers, pieces, music genres...?
> 2. Shouldn't music be freed from categories in order to appreciate its uniqueness?


well, when everything is unique unto itself, then everything becomes increasingly the same

I think we, as humans, are predisposed to perceive patterns, and so we put stuff that sounds alike, looks alike, acts alike...we just tend to separate things into neat little piles, then we give the pile a name so we have a word to convey the idea to somebody else and there you go...categorizing composers


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

sloth said:


> Here are my questions:
> 1. Why do we always feel the need to classify composers, pieces, music genres...?
> 2. Shouldn't music be freed from categories in order to appreciate its uniqueness?


I think that the classification into genres is actually quite useful. Each genre carries with it a set of expectations and conventions that guide the listener and the composer. Many musical works play with those conventions in interesting ways. In order to appreciate the composer's engagement with conventions, the listener needs to be aware of what these conventions are.

For instance, the majority of 18th and early 19th century concertos begin with an orchestral section, followed by the entrance of the soloist. Beethoven breaks with this convention in his Fourth Piano Concerto, which opens with a solo piano passage. In order to appreciate the creativity of this solo opening, it's helpful to know the standard conventions for concertos written during this time period.

Of course, many musical works, including Beethoven's Fourth Piano Concerto, can certainly be appreciated without knowledge of the genre's norms. But I believe that this knowledge further enhances our appreciation and understanding.


----------



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Bettina said:


> ..Each genre carries with it a set of expectations and conventions that guide the listener and the composer...


exactly, and as you point out with your example from Beethoven, those expectations not only help define the form, but they are also there for the artist to manipulate as well.


----------



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Richard8655 said:


> Along these lines, I've always wondered why the Japanese love Bach so much (at least the cultured segment). They have many Bach societies, and love to perform and attend his sacred works. It just seems so antithetical to their culture and musical tradition.


There was an article I read long time ago about why Bach is popular in the Japanese culture. There is a lot of structure and discipline in Bach's music that resonated with the Japanese culture of discipline.


----------



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Sloe said:


> I think Beethoven's ninth symphony is used for new years celebrations in Japan. Then I really dislike that people say Asia like it was one thing. Talibans in Afghanistan are Asians they have very little interest in Western classical music.


Could we link western classical music to a country or society that is economically developed? It seems that there is a pattern emerging in Asian culture that the more advance or developed economics (Japan, Hong Kong, Korea, China, Singapore etc.), the higher appreciation of classical music. These countries all have their symphony orchestra, some cities such as Beijing have 3 to 4 large scales orchestras. One can draw a conclusion at this point.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I agree with you about the advantages offered by two cellos. I'm still wondering, though, why Schubert departed from what seems to have been the standard quintet scoring. As far as I know, the vast majority of Viennese quintets (Mozart, Pleyel, Beethoven, Spohr), are scored for two violas.
> 
> My question is: was Schubert drawing on any kind of "cello quintet" tradition (possibly Boccherini?), or was he employing innovative scoring to serve a particular artistic aim? Or perhaps both?


Those are excellent questions. I don't have the answers but maybe one of these books on my shelves does. Hmm, let's see …


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

pcnog11 said:


> Could we link western classical music to a country or society that is economically developed? It seems that there is a pattern emerging in Asian culture that the more advance or developed economics (Japan, Hong Kong, Korea, China, Singapore etc.), the higher appreciation of classical music. These countries all have their symphony orchestra, some cities such as Beijing have 3 to 4 large scales orchestras. One can draw a conclusion at this point.


China is as a whole not more developed economically than a country like Thailand but it have advantage of being huge and so is Peking 3 to 4 large scale orchestras in a city with 12 million inhabitants is not much especially when there are cities in Europe with large scale orchestras that have populations that is 1/40th of Peking. Everything in China becomes more there are hundreds of millions in China that live with a similar standard of living as in Western Europe ando that is still a small part of the whole population. It is possible for China to have several orchestras and still have people who don't know who Mozart was.


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Those are excellent questions. I don't have the answers but maybe one of these books on my shelves does. Hmm, let's see …


Thanks for offering to look into these issues regarding Schubert's quartet. Yes, please let me know if you can find any information on this. I look forward to your response.

Also, it would be great if you could suggest some books that might address my questions--I'm becoming "curiouser and curiouser" as Alice in Wonderland would say!


----------



## sloth (Jul 12, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I think that the classification into genres is actually quite useful. Each genre carries with it a set of expectations and conventions that guide the listener and the composer. Many musical works play with those conventions in interesting ways. In order to appreciate the composer's engagement with conventions, the listener needs to be aware of what these conventions are.
> 
> For instance, the majority of 18th and early 19th century concertos begin with an orchestral section, followed by the entrance of the soloist. Beethoven breaks with this convention in his Fourth Piano Concerto, which opens with a solo piano passage. In order to appreciate the creativity of this solo opening, it's helpful to know the standard conventions for concertos written during this time period.
> 
> Of course, many musical works, including Beethoven's Fourth Piano Concerto, can certainly be appreciated without knowledge of the genre's norms. But I believe that this knowledge further enhances our appreciation and understanding.


Yes, the classification into genres is useful for a first approach. But I fear it could be dangerous in the long run...

The point is that by pigeonholing everything you tend to focus more on similarities or on certain aspects peculiar to a said genre, that way you may lose subtlety in your evaluation. Take for instance Baroque: there we have a chart with J.S. Bach on top... by listening to another German Baroque composer (for example an organ piece) the obvious comparison is to Bach's works. If there's little or no counterpoint then it isn't good. While there may be other "composing strategies" at work that we may miss.

I'm obviously simplifying the thing... hope it makes sense.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Q: How can a deaf man compose such magnificent works!


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Q: How can a deaf man compose such magnificent works!


Perfect pitch, ear trumpets, banging really loudly on the piano with his ear pressed to the wood so his bones conduct the sound, and a refined sonic imagination in his own head.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Why do folks insist on overanalyzing music?

It's like going to an anatomy class and learning the names of each of the human skeletal bones.

I didn't fall in love with a skeleton; I fell in love with a nymphomaniac.

Relax and enjoy the music. All that analyzing does one thing, it destroys the mood.

I'd like to stay and chat, but I'm being paged....again!!! "Yes, dear!!!" Insatiable!!!


----------



## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Why do folks insist on overanalyzing music?
> 
> It's like going to an anatomy class and learning the names of each of the human skeletal bones.
> 
> ...


I'll admit I got a bit excited and couldn't resist peaking through the blinds when I thought I heard a couple skeletons copulating on a tin roof in a lightning storm. Turned out it was just my neighbor giving an uncommonly passionate rendition of the Well-Tempered Clavier on his harpsichord.


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Why do folks insist on overanalyzing music?
> 
> It's like going to an anatomy class and learning the names of each of the human skeletal bones.
> 
> ...


For me, analyzing music actually increases my listening pleasure. I know that analysis is a turn-off for some listeners. Different strokes for different folks. I have a very analytical personality, and it gives me satisfaction to combine the intellectual excitement of analysis with the sensual pleasure of music.


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

pcnog11 said:


> There was an article I read long time ago about why Bach is popular in the Japanese culture. There is a lot of structure and discipline in Bach's music that resonated with the Japanese culture of discipline.


They continue with what the Germans are slowly losing.


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Why do folks insist on overanalyzing music?
> 
> It's like going to an anatomy class and learning the names of each of the human skeletal bones.


And what's wrong with that, he asked indignantly??


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> For me, analyzing music actually increases my listening pleasure. I know that analysis is a turn-off for some listeners. Different strokes for different folks. I have a very analytical personality, and it gives me satisfaction to combine the intellectual excitement of analysis with the sensual pleasure of music.


Thanks for representing the other side's point of view. I respect you for it, Bettina and I'm not looking to make enemies because of my opinion.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Pat Fairlea said:


> And what's wrong with that, he asked indignantly??


I can learn those things purely from books and not have to pay $400 a credit for some grad. student to talk down to me about femurs and clavicles.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Q: How can a deaf man compose such magnificent works!


What? What did you say??


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Blancrocher said:


> I'll admit I got a bit excited and couldn't resist peaking through the blinds when I thought I heard a couple skeletons copulating on a tin roof in a lightning storm. Turned out it was just my neighbor giving an uncommonly passionate rendition of the Well-Tempered Clavier on his harpsichord.


Today we have bone-chilling cold in my area. My clavicle and femur feel it.

Oh no! Another info-mercial about Red Skelton's TV hit shows!!


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Why do composers even bother labeling their symphonic studies or "poems" with descriptive titles?

I mean, give 100 musical novices, CDs of "The Pines of Rome", "La Mer" and "Don Juan", I bet not one out of 100 will be able to articulate from the music anything close to what the music is supposedly alluding to.


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Why do composers even bother labeling their symphonic studies or "poems" with descriptive titles?
> 
> I mean, give 100 musical novices, CDs of "The Pines of Rome", "La Mer" and "Don Juan", I bet not one out of 100 will be able to articulate from the music anything close to what the music is supposedly alluding to.


That's a huge question and I probably can't do justice to it without writing a dissertation!  One partial answer, though, is that maybe the composer was inspired by a particular picture, story, or idea, and he wanted the title of his piece to reflect that.

In other words, a descriptive title might be the composer's way of letting the audience know what inspired him.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> That's a huge question and I probably can't do justice to it without writing a dissertation!  One partial answer, though, is that maybe the composer was inspired by a particular picture, story, or idea, and he wanted the title of his piece to reflect that.
> 
> In other words, a descriptive title might be the composer's way of letting the audience know what inspired him.


Okay. That's a good point.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I've often wondered, if one is familiar with a great composer's works, you can hear one or two bars of an unknown work by such a composer like Beethoven or Brahms, and immediately identify the work as theirs.

How do these great composers take notes that are accessible to any other composer and make the sound so uniquely their own?

I was listening to Brahms Piano Quartet no. 3 and every note was so identifiable as being by Brahms and nobody else.
How did he do this?

I realize a good answer would require technical analysis, so i'm sticking my neck out on that one.


----------



## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

DaveM said:


> These are the classical music related questions you've always wondered about. They can be questions that someone here may have an answer for, questions for which there may be no clear answers or just rhetorical questions.
> 
> For instance, I've have pondered over:
> 
> ...


what sort of Asia are you referring to? South East? Middle East?
I wouldn´t agree at all that they really embrace it. Some, small percentage they do, but the majority, vast majority would never be able to do it...exactly by that reason mentioned above that there is such a huge difference between their own native music and Western classical music.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DaveM said:


> Why is it that western Classical Music has been embraced by so many different cultures (particularly those in Asia) even though it is often quite different than their native music?


This is a fascinating question. My own view is that some Indian classical music traditions aside, most Asian "classical music" has always been either storytelling or descriptive. There is little tradition of purely abstract music, existing for its own sake. There are exceptions of course!

Europe, on the other hand, developed just such a tradition, and a musical language of great power that can easily by absorbed by people from different cultures. And the music of this tradition, for the last 300 years or so, has been freely available to everybody, not just the rulers, aristocracy, or church. This too may have been different from the situation in most of Asia where absolute despotisms have been often the case in previous ages.

Anyway, just idle thoughts. I'd like to hear other people's views!


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> This is a fascinating question. My own view is that some Indian classical music traditions aside, most Asian "classical music" has always been either storytelling or descriptive. There is little tradition of purely abstract music, existing for its own sake. There are exceptions of course!
> 
> Europe, on the other hand, developed just such a tradition, and a musical language of great power that can easily by absorbed by people from different cultures. And the music of this tradition, for the last 300 years or so, has been freely available to everybody, not just the rulers, aristocracy, or church. This too may have been different from the situation in most of Asia where absolute despotisms have been often the case in previous ages.
> 
> Anyway, just idle thoughts. I'd like to hear other people's views!


I think another thing to keep in mind is that western classical music is not just about the music: Europe developed a whole range of instruments with unparalleled power of expression. And the Asians are often very enthusiastic technophiles who just love newfangled gadgets. In fact, they have left the west far behind when it comes to gadgetry. They are also highly effective in relatively cheaply mass producing all manner of technology. Perhaps musical technology is no exception.

Or perhaps it's a stereotype and I'm being disrespectful referring to musical instruments as gadgets.


----------



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Sloe said:


> China is as a whole not more developed economically than a country like Thailand but it have advantage of being huge and so is Peking 3 to 4 large scale orchestras in a city with 12 million inhabitants is not much especially when there are cities in Europe with large scale orchestras that have populations that is 1/40th of Peking. Everything in China becomes more there are hundreds of millions in China that live with a similar standard of living as in Western Europe ando that is still a small part of the whole population. It is possible for China to have several orchestras and still have people who don't know who Mozart was.


Since the population in China is so huge and most of the time when people talk about westernized China especially those cities that have their established economy such as Beijing and Shanghai, we are only referring to a very small percentage of the population. The vast majority or the average Chinese do not know much about Mozart or classical music in general. Only those living in bigger centers and could have been influenced by western civilization may know some classical music. For example, there is a street in Shanghai that only sell musical instruments, most of these shops carry piano, strings instruments, woodwinds, brasses etc. Instruments that you can find in a symphony orchestra. Recently, Lang Lang and Yundi Li are China's classical superstars, they have been drawing the younger generations towards classical music. This trend will only grow with the economy as more and more people associate themselves with a higher standard of living and taste of music.

Classical music had been in major centers since the early part of the last century. The movie "The Red Violin" had a section on the history of this part. Classical music interest was mostly influenced by Russia than any other European countries.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Why do many conservative classical listeners gravitate to the fast, extroverted pieces like Ravel's Bolero and Respighi's The Pines of Rome and do not seek out the most moving and profound classical works such as the Mahler Symphony No. 9 final adagio or the Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 6 final movement or the magnificent adagio of Beethoven's A minor String Quartet?


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

hpowders said:


> I've often wondered, if one is familiar with a great composer's works, you can hear one or two bars of an unknown work by such a composer like Beethoven or Brahms, and immediately identify the work as theirs.
> 
> How do these great composers take notes that are accessible to any other composer and make the sound so uniquely their own?
> 
> ...


Good question. And yet, most here who have listened to CM for years know this to be true (being able to pick out music by the major composers even if we haven't heard the work before). I know that for me, Beethoven's piano music, particularly his later works, is distinctive in having that 'growling' lower register, just as one example.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DaveM said:


> Good question. And yet, most here who have listened to CM for years know this to be true (being able to pick out music by the major composers even if we haven't heard the work before). I know that for me, Beethoven's piano music, particularly his later works, is distinctive in having that 'growling' lower register, just as one example.


Yeah. One bar by Brahms that I've never heard before. Instant recognition. Same with Beethoven.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

DaveM said:


> Good question. And yet, most here who have listened to CM for years know this to be true (being able to pick out music by the major composers even if we haven't heard the work before). I know that for me, Beethoven's piano music, particularly his later works, is distinctive in having that 'growling' lower register, just as one example.


This idea prompted a thread which I started last year...

http://www.talkclassical.com/39363-musical-fingerprints.html


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Have you ever listened to a work consisting of various movements and heard wild inconsistencies from one movement to another?

Last night, I was listening to the Brahms Piano Quartet No. 3 in C minor and I noticed a distinct improvement in the quality of music from movements 1& 2 to 3& 4. So I got the CD notes out and sure enough Brahms composed the first two movements while in his early 20's in 1856; abandoned it and then composed two final movements in 1873-1874, when Brahms was in his glorious full maturity; then slapped the whole thing together as his C minor Piano Quartet. It really shows! The first 2 movements are simply okay, but the last two are simply glorious!


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> Questions You've Always Wondered About


Why on earth would you should you be so rude about someone else's taste in music ?


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Has anyone ever done an analysis of thread evolution/devolution as more and more off topic posts occur? How much does the thread deviate from a straight line (that being staying on topic) and how far can the line bend before it breaks and the thread becomes full of meaningless drivel? Is there an optimal number of posters to keep a thread highly functional?


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

hpowders said:


> I've often wondered, if one is familiar with a great composer's works, you can hear one or two bars of an unknown work by such a composer like Beethoven or Brahms, and immediately identify the work as theirs.
> 
> How do these great composers take notes that are accessible to any other composer and make the sound so uniquely their own?
> 
> ...


Well, I guess it varies with how distinctive a composer's style is. Over the holiday I was amazed by the ear of one of my sons. A theatrical set designer, his only knowing exposure to R. Strauss was being assigned to conceive a set for Salome. When a selection from Ariadne auf Naxos came up on my iPod, he asked me "I know this is by Strauss, but what is it?" Admittedly, Strauss' style is among the most distinctive in the repertoire, but this recognition nevertheless impressed me greatly.


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

hpowders said:


> I can learn those things purely from books and not have to pay $400 a credit for some grad. student to talk down to me about femurs and clavicles.


The plural is 'femora'. That $400 was wasted.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Pat Fairlea said:


> The plural is 'femora'. That $400 was wasted.


I never spent it. Got it from a book. $2.98 used on Amazon.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Pat Fairlea said:


> The plural is 'femora'. That $400 was wasted.


And it's not "clavicle," it's "clavichord." The clavicle is a kind of fish. 

(Source: The Big Book of Incredibly Useful Information)


----------



## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Pat Fairlea said:


> The plural is 'femora'. That $400 was wasted.


Femora: isn't that a kind of fish also? It has a suction cup on top of its head and sticks onto the undersides of sharks.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> Femora: isn't that a kind of fish also? It has a suction cup on top of its head and sticks onto the undersides of sharks.


You may be thinking of a Lenora, a Beethoven opera about sharks that was later made into a big budget movie. A femora is a type of hat.


----------



## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

KenOC said:


> You may be thinking of a Lenora, a Beethoven opera about sharks that was later made into a big budget movie. A femora is a type of hat.


No, but there is a hat called a chimaera. The femora lives on Madagascar and leaps through the trees.


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> No, but there is a hat called a chimaera. The femora lives on Madagascar and leaps through the trees.


Really enjoying all the humerus anatomy puns.


----------

