# Wagner before Verdi at La Scala



## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

This.

Wagner before Verdi at La Scala

_(Or, How To Make a Mountain Out of a Molehill )_


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

They are going to perform the works of both composers anyway, so what's the fuss?

PS. Does anyone know if there is any way to hear _Lohengrin_ from La Scala on December 7th online and maybe give a link? I can't find anything so far. Jonas Kaufmann is in the title role!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> They are going to perform the works of both composers anyway, so what's the fuss?
> 
> PS. Does anyone know if there is any way to hear _Lohengrin_ from La Scala on December 7th online and maybe give a link? I can't find anything so far. Jonas Kaufmann is in the title role!


Here is another article about this dustup: La Scala polemics

The first night of Lohengrin from La Scala is being broadcast on Arte HD TV as a catch up live transmission, 19.15 - 23.20 GMT, 7th December.

Fingers crossed that Jonas doesn't get sick again at the last moment.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

What's the problem? The only problem i see is the fact some opera houses don't have a proper season for this ocasion.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

BTW, if you can't see it live at the La Scala, or live telecast via Arte HD TV, then you might be interested in still seeing it in the movie theaters:

_Lohengrin_ at La Scala via Emerging Picture's Opera in Cinema


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Fingers crossed that Jonas doesn't get sick again at the last moment.


Or that Die Harteros doesn't back out at the last minute as she has been wont to do lately.

EDIT: And I think the big issue here (as the Italians interviewed point out) is that Verdi, the Great Italian Composer doesn't get the opening night of La Scala. I think people are also displeased that the Italian repertoire is getting less and less room at La Scala with the new management.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Or that Die Harteros doesn't back out at the last minute as she has been wont to do lately.


Amen to that!

I'm going to wait on buying my tickets to the Emerging Pictures _Opera in Cinema_ performance to see who actually shows and sings!


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Amen to that!
> 
> I'm going to wait on buying my tickets to the Emerging Pictures _Opera in Cinema_ performance to see who actually shows and sings!


I'd love to see it, but they're not showing it around here. But Der Jonas singing Lohengrin is something to behold in any case. I wish I could see Herlitzius' Ortrud, though. My guess is that she will be FABULOUS!


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Maybe we'll be lucky and (a) Kaufmann and Harteros will both sing as scheduled, along with Herlitzius as Ortrud, and (b) the performance will later be released on DVD.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

I think it's awesome that out of 15 productions this season at La Scala, 13 are either Verdi or Wagner. I was a little surprised at the choice of season opener, but I'm sure that was Barenboim's doing. I don't think the man who broke the Wagner performance taboo in Israel is going to be too worried about ruffling some nationalist feathers in Italy. Let's hope he doesn't have to tell the gallery to shut up again.

It's funny to hear the Milanese vaunt Verdi's close relationship with with La Scala too. Sure he had some early and late triumphs there, but after his _Giovanna D'Arco_ flopped there in 1843 due to what Verdi felt was a very bad production, Verdi himself banned any performances of his work there for years. The next Verdi Opera to premiere at La Scala was _La Forza_ in 1869.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Maybe they shouldn't have allied with Hitler.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

RichardWagner said:


> Maybe they shouldn't have allied with *Hitler*.


Godwin is a genius.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Or that Die Harteros doesn't back out at the last minute as she has been wont to do lately.


It's official (per La Scala website):

_Cast change on 7 December - Annett Dasch from Bayreuth to La Scala
Due to a persistent flu, Mrs. Anja Harteros is forced to postpone her debut in Lohengrin, which opens our 2012/2013 Season. With Mrs. Ann Petersen also having contracted a similar indisposition, the part of Elsa will be sung by Mrs. Annette Dasch, who has sung the role since 2010 at the Wagner Festival in Bayreuth.
The Teatro alla Scala wishes to thank Mrs. Dasch, who arrived last night in Milan, and with her generosity has given a sign of her affection to the Theatre and friendship to La Scala._


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> It's official (per La Scala website):
> 
> _Cast change on 7 December - Annett Dasch from Bayreuth to La Scala
> Due to a persistent flu, Mrs. Anja Harteros is forced to postpone her debut in Lohengrin, which opens our 2012/2013 Season. With Mrs. Ann Petersen also having contracted a similar indisposition, the part of Elsa will be sung by Mrs. Annette Dasch, who has sung the role since 2010 at the Wagner Festival in Bayreuth.
> The Teatro alla Scala wishes to thank Mrs. Dasch, who arrived last night in Milan, and with her generosity has given a sign of her affection to the Theatre and friendship to La Scala._


Oh noes! Horror. 

I hope Harteros returns to health before they record the Emerging Pictures' Opera in Cinema performance!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Oh noes! Horror.
> 
> I hope Harteros returns to health before they record the Emerging Pictures' Opera in Cinema performance!


Talk about last minute brinkmanship. Harteros is worse than Montsy or Gheorghiu, which is a pity because when you do get her on stage she is brilliant.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Talk about last minute brinkmanship. Harteros is worse than Montsy or Gheorghiu, which is a pity because when you do get her on stage she is brilliant.


Yes, I saw her with Jonas Kaufmann in the Richard Jones Munich production from 2009 (which everyone loves to hate and gets often bandied about when pointing out bad _Regieoper_).  She is an incredible singer.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Oh noes! Horror.
> 
> I hope Harteros returns to health before they record the Emerging Pictures' Opera in Cinema performance!


I believe the OiC broadcast is the actual opening night performance, shown as a live broadcast in some locations. In previous years here there's been a live broadcast during the afternoon and a re-broadcast in the evening (local time).


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Yes, I saw her with Jonas Kaufmann in the Richard Jones Munich production from 2009 (which everyone loves to hate and gets often bandied about when pointing out bad _Regieoper_).  She is an incredible singer.


BTW, some of my Wagnerian friends who are partaking in the season premiere say this is one of the worst Lohengrins they have ever witnessed. Every principal including Jonas was bad. Doesn't sound like Harteros could have saved it.  The critics will have a field day with this in the morning papers. I hope they get the bugs ironed out before the Emerging Pictures' Opera in Cinema performance.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> I believe the OiC broadcast is the actual opening night performance, shown as a live broadcast in some locations. In previous years here there's been a live broadcast during the afternoon and a re-broadcast in the evening (local time).


That is horrible, for the reasons I mentioned above. :scold:


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> I believe the OiC broadcast is the actual opening night performance, shown as a live broadcast in some locations.


Emerging Pictures has said that they no longer like live broadcasts since the delayed broadcasts don't reduce their audience and the timing of live broadcasts from Europe is poor for American audiences.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I'm listening to Lohengrin from Milan just now. To me it doesn't sound bad at all, but then I am no great judge of opera voices.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I'm listening to Lohengrin from Milan just now. To me it doesn't sound bad at all, but then I am no great judge of opera voices.


Some the comments: _Lack of cohesion, role doesn't suit Rene Pape, 1st act not convincing, Annette Dasch too sharp, Telramund awful, Elsa is bad, Lucic's German is weak, procession too casual, Barenboim is flaccid, Ortrud is singing worse than Elsa with excessive pressure, off pitch and poor articulation, fanfares are poorly separated._

Actually Jonas is probably the best of the bunch.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

OK, I see what you mean (we seem to be reading a lot of the same comments by the way  ). I had just switched into it when I wrote the previous post...


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

I was just poking around the RAI website, hoping there was a streaming audio broadcast, but haven't found anything like that. Anyone know if it's available on internet radio anywhere?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Here: http://players.tv-radio.com/radiofrance/playerfrancemusique.php


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> OK, I see what you mean (we seem to be reading a lot of the same comments by the way  ). I had just switched into it when I wrote the previous post...


If Cavaradossi is right and the Opera in Cinema production is the opening night, then I am going to try really hard to forget these comments so that I can judge the performance for myself. I'm just hoping it isn't!

_EDIT: I knew I shouldn't have looked at their comments. Now that's what I am going to be thinking of when I see the performance.  I'm definitely not going to listen to the performance on the Internet radio now and I hope I will forget all this by January when I catch the performance via Opera in Cinema! _


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Here: http://players.tv-radio.com/radiofrance/playerfrancemusique.php


Thanks SL! I was able to listen for a bit on the tiny speaker on my work desktop. Not ideal, but it was fun to be able to tune in on opening night. Kaufmann sound OK to me, particularly considering he was going into hour five of the performance. They cut away from the applause pretty quick at the end, but I didn't hear any obvious booing. I guess that's a good sign.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Yes, I saw her with Jonas Kaufmann in the Richard Jones Munich production from 2009 (which everyone loves to hate and gets often bandied about when pointing out *bad Regieoper).*  She is an incredible singer.


This to me is excellent Regieoper. It opened up new views of Lohengrin (ie his human vulnerable side) that I had never thought of. Excellent acting supported by a coherent directorial vision. I can't say it's my favourite Lohengrin because I have three favourite Lohengrins, but it's one of them.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> This to me is excellent Regieoper. It opened up new views of Lohengrin (ie his human vulnerable side) that I had never thought of. Excellent acting supported by a coherent directorial vision.


Yes! Yes! Yes! I agree! 

On that topic, did you see the interview of Jonas that I posted? He mentions that performance of course! 



tyroneslothrop said:


> Jonas Kaufmann speaking eloquently and at length on Regieoper _(the interview is in English)_!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Yes! Yes! Yes! I agree!


But then I should admit I loved the 'Rats' _Lohengrin_ too! :devil: _(also mentioned by Jonas in that interview)_


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Yes, I saw her with Jonas Kaufmann in the Richard Jones Munich production from 2009 (which everyone loves to hate and gets often bandied about when pointing out bad _Regieoper_).  She is an incredible singer.


I rather love it as well. Although I saw the premiere, and it was the first time I saw Der Jonas live, and it was one of my first live operas, so it's special to me.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> But then I should admit I loved the 'Rats' _Lohengrin_ too! :devil: _(also mentioned by Jonas in that interview)_


My rats one arrived today, yay! I saw it on YouTube and had to have it. It's been haunting me ever since.

(Nothing to do with Klaus Florian Vogt, BTW)


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> On that topic, did you see the interview of Jonas that I posted? He mentions that performance of course!


Very good interview. This guy is intelligent and thoughtful as well as a good singer and actor.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> My rats one arrived today, yay! I saw it on YouTube and had to have it. It's been haunting me ever since.
> 
> (Nothing to do with Klaus Florian Vogt, BTW)


Loving this version too. It is excellent. Much better than the Kaufmann one.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Yashin said:


> Loving this version too. It is excellent. Much better than the Kaufmann one.


Personally, I don't consider the Rats Lohengrin to be "better" than 2009 Munich, but I do think it is very good. You'd be surprise (or maybe not) how this was bashed to death on the opera mailing list when it first came out. Many people there object to _Regieoper_ on principle and can't get past that to look at the actual performance as an integrated work of art.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Many people there object to _Regieoper_ on principle and can't get past that to look at the actual performance as an integrated work of art.


When Wagner was composing _Lohengrin_, he envisioned it precisely in that way, as an intergrated work of art, but he did not envision any rats there. That is why I am convinced any stage director should either stick to his vision or go compose his own Gesamtkunstwerk.

I heard that "ratty" Lohengrin back in summer, it sounded great, but I was very happy I could only access the audio part of it


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> When Wagner was composing _Lohengrin_, he envisioned it precisely in that way, as an intergrated work of art, but he did not envision any rats there. That is why I am convinced any stage director should either stick to his vision or go compose his own Gesamtkunstwerk.


I don't think it is that simple. The Bayreuth Festspielhaus board discussed this issue to death after Eva and Katharina commissioned the new _Lohengrin_ from Neuenfels. This new production was not intended to subvert Wagner's intentions.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> You'd be surprise (or maybe not) how this was bashed to death on the opera mailing list when it first came out.


Well no, I'm not surprised. When I started watching this my reaction was disbelief, and sometimes hilarity, But as I say it really grew on me, and I couldn't forget it, and that's I wanted to see it again. The rats are definitely there for a reason. It's more difficult and elusive than the 2009 Munich one, but it's good.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Well no, I'm not surprised. When I started watching this my reaction was disbelief, and sometimes hilarity, But as I say it really grew on me, and I couldn't forget it, and that's I wanted to see it again. The rats are definitely there for a reason. It's more difficult and elusive than the 2009 Munich one, but it's good.


Voigt is fabulous on the recording, and for this alone, I bought the Blu-ray disc--I think she is one of the top Wagner dramatic sopranos around. She has definitely been improving with time. (And she doesn't take up so much screen real estate as before the _little black dress_ days )


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Voigt is fabulous on the recording, and for this alone, I bought the Blu-ray disc--I think she is one of the top Wagner dramatic sopranos around. She has definitely been improving with time. (And she doesn't take up so much screen real estate as before the _little black dress_ days )


Hang on, the rat Lohengrin has Klaus Florian VOGT not Deborah VOIGT in it. The soprano playing Elsa is Annette Dasch, who famously just einsprang for Harteros in the La Scala opening night.

I quite like Voigt, but I never get all that excited about sopranos, particularly dramatic sopranos.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

> just einsprang for Harteros


Have been just listening to Wagner, heh?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Have been just listening to Wagner, heh?


I have it on good authority that Germglish is a recognised dialect:



guythegreg said:


> we call that Milwaukee Deutsch: "the cow hat over the fence gejumped"


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Well, a lot of Germans seem to like inserting lots of English loanwords into their German, so for the sake of justice jemand must es the other way machen.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Well, a lot of Germans seem to like inserting lots of English loanwords into their German.


And it drives the soprano Edda Moser nuts. She's started her own summer literary festival to counteract the "Anglicization" of German. (All of the French borrowings don't seem to bother her. :lol: )


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

MAuer said:


> And it drives the soprano Edda Moser nuts. She's started her own summer literary festival to counteract the "Anglicization" of German. (All of the French borrowings don't seem to bother her. :lol: )


That's because French is supposed to be refined and classy 

Personally I dislike both English and French borrowings in German, but it has nothing to do with America-bashing or contempt for Anglo culture, as seems to be the case with many people. Rather I would like to see the German language as German as possible, it sounds more beautiful that way (however, not even being German, who am I to tell the Germans what to do with their language? :lol

Just thought I need to make that clear.


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