# Why people have to die in opera



## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I wasn't sure about the subject, but I noticed that many composers are like Shakespeare, they kill their heros/heroins...Wagner! OMG Puccini OMG who else....Massenet...OMG Berg OMG Verdi...OMG

La Rondine (PUccini) has two finales, the one everybody knows, the girl leave the guy and the other one a suicide...

Why people often die in operas?

I don't know if you like the subject...I don't know if I do either...LOL 

What if we could change the finales? Evgeni Onieguin...you have 1 death (Lensky after he sung Kuda kuda)....Onieguin lives (but without love) and Tatiana lives (without true love either)...

Of course Rossini was an exception and he made a lot of money because of that...Prokofiev too...He doesn't like deaths too much...

Please be free to add "stuff". LOL


:tiphat:

Martin


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

It has become tradition in serious opera to have a death of a protagonist. This adds tension I suppose and highlights the futility of life and our actions. Another reason could be so the audience feels better about their own wretched lives by comparison.

There's a thread on this site entitled 'Which Composer had the most Sublime Death?'. I think opera plots of this sort perpetuate death as being sublime, beautiful, glorious. However, this is never the case. It sort of stops us from worrying about our own mortality.

Is there a serious opera where the bad guy dies and everything turns out for the best?


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I think that's why I like Figaro and Cosi so much. War between the sexes and no deaths.


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## Jean Christophe Paré (Nov 21, 2010)

Because, for a long time, serious operas were tragedies. The lightest accepted works were heavy dramas.

Then came the comedy operas of the French.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Plus at least one death gave the librettist the chance to use the immortal words 'he/she is dead' (in whatever language - normally Italian). I would say this is the nearest there is to a catchphrase in serious opera.


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## Jean Christophe Paré (Nov 21, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> Plus at least one death gave the librettist the chance to use the immortal words 'he/she is dead' (in whatever language - normally Italian). I would say this is the nearest there is to a catchphrase in serious opera.


Bonus points if the one saying it still loves the dead person and necrophilia ensue.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*LOL! Desperately LOL*

I think I am going to get some fun here!

I guess well.

Sometimes, I'm getting tired of people diying in operas... I agree with the guy who said he loves Figaro....I love le nozze di Figaro deeply, the magic flute....Many Rossini's...Il Barbiere, Cenerentola....I understand that, people also need to laugh...I think Richard Strauss understood this well...after his "terribles" Salomé and Elektra we have all kind of good vibes...That is his main difference with the Shakesperian Wagner! who liked to kill everybody...(e.g. Why people die in Parsifal, Lohengrin, Tannhäuser) No reason, they have to die...

Arabella, Ariadne, Die Frau ohne Schatten, Der Rosenkavalier...but of course once in a while...Daphne (kaput)....LOL

Martin


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Seems like 'serious' operas have a lot of people in excruciating pain (going by the singing), so death could be a blessing.

:devil:


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Seems like 'serious' operas have a lot of people in excruciating pain (going by the singing), so death could be a blessing.


OMG...I couldn't stop laughing! Well....I am convinced that in Tristan und Isolde, Isolde really dies at the end...Her voice is wonderful but what an effort. I have the Kirsten Flagstad version, the best for me....

And poor Lulu, when she's killed by Jack the ripper....she cries really loud (he's realling killing her!).

Notice that all people diying in operas are young....

I am old, and out-of-danger....then

Martin


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## TWhite (Feb 23, 2010)

Well, I can't quite see Herod smiling paternally at Salome after that dance and Soliloquoy and saying, "That's very nice, dear, thank you so much." LOL! 

But thinking about it, of my favorite operas, that's about the only one in which the protagonist dies (crushed under soldier's shields--ugh!). The others--"Le Nozze", "Rosenkavalier", "Meistersinger" "Capriccio"--well, they might have sad/sweet endings, but nobody gets 'offed'. 
Oops, forgot my other favorite: "Boris" dies, doesn't he? Oh well--
Tom


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## Sanctus Petrus (Dec 9, 2010)

If they do not let them characters die, those atrocious singers would go on forever.


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## Jean Christophe Paré (Nov 21, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Why people die in Parsifal, Lohengrin, Tannhäuser? No reason, they have to die...


Um... He based his operas on tales from folklore. Why do they die? Because they did in the stories.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Jean Christophe Paré said:


> Um... He based his operas on tales from folklore. Why do they die? Because they did in the stories.


They don't.

You better make more research before writing about things you're not sure about, you may mislead people. Original Tannhauser didn't die, it's Wagner's idea and his version of German legend.

Lohengrin is also twisted a little bit and I don't think that Elsa dies in original legend as well.

Wagner always reshaped source of the story so it could serve his vision.


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## Jean Christophe Paré (Nov 21, 2010)

Aramis said:


> They don't.
> 
> You better make more research before writing about things you're not sure about, you may mislead people. Original Tannhauser didn't die, it's Wagner's idea and his version of German legend.
> 
> ...


I have to admit my wrong. My recalling of the original tales seems strongly influenced by Wagner's versions. Upon reading again, there are differences, though I must say some of those deaths were somewhat implied - like Elsa's - rather than present in the original stories.

However, the choices - whether because he interpreted it that way or didn't like the originals - are quite true to the general idea and atmosphere of the stories.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Quite intersting Aramis*

I was believing the thing...I am not familiar with German folklore, note that nowadays with Internet it is easy to verify.

I will propose that Diying is a question of fashion..In Wagner's time, opera seria ment death...It is my opinion, just my opinion. Psychological drama came after...(e.g. Jenufa (Janacek), Die heute von Morgan (Schönberg)...

see you.

They're calling me to eat....

Bye

Martin


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Actually,in La Rondine, the heroine does not die, she just agrees tearfully to part with her beloved because his family disapproves of their (to them)rather scandalous relationship,similar to La Traviata ,to which the opera has obvious similarities in plot.
But in a recent production I believe,either from San Francisco or Washington DC,I can't remember for sure, the director Marta Domingo (Mrs. Placido) had her commit suicide by walking into the ocean at the house at the beach where the two were living. Not every one liked this directorial touch.
There are many operas where no one dies. Puccini's La Fanciulla Del West, Die Meistersinger,
Der Rosenkavalier,Ariadne Auf Naxos,Die Frau Ohne Schatten, Fidelio, Le Nozze Di Figaro,Il Barbiere Di Siviglia, L'Enfant& Les Sortileges,L'Heure Espagnole, The Abduction From The Seraglio,
I Puritani, La Sonnambula, Falstaff, Capriccio,La Cenerentola, Cosi Fan Tutte, La Clemenza Di Tito, The Magic Flute, The Bartred Bride, to name only some.
Why question people dying in opera? They do all the time on television,film and the theater.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Because that's what whiney complainers must do.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

Aramis said:


> They don't.
> 
> You better make more research before writing about things you're not sure about, you may mislead people. Original Tannhauser didn't die, it's Wagner's idea and his version of German legend.
> 
> ...


Tannhauser went to Venusberg again and never received salvation for his soul, which is probably a fate far worse than death. And Elsa definitely died in the original legend; Wagner was in fact disturbed by her death and wanted to remove it, but decided in the end that the death was necessary.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I think the reason composers/librettists kill off characters is that said characters whine all day and sing hour-long arias about how their lives suck and various significant others have left them for obviously better singers, and the composer/librettist just gets sick of it and puts the lid on them.

Just my two cents.

EDIT: Actually, upon reviewing this thread, it seems someone has already come up with my two cents. But this is my story anyway, and I'm stickin' to it!

EDIT 2 (aka the actual serious couple of cents): I think the opera characters must die because it's the only way to tie up plots very exceedingly neatly (I think, yes, that Wagner's not killing of Alberich was just a memory slip, unless he was providing some deep metaphysical insight into the human condition). Maybe there's something to do with the whole thing about being made of dust and returning unto dust or whatever that is.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Personally I'd welcome a lot more happy endings. Too many operas have dreadfully depressing and/or horrific plots, and while this may provide cathartic experiences that are arguably 'good for us' in some way, I've already had quite enough cathartic experiences of that sort to last me many years. I'd greatly welcome a _Tosca_ where the lovers actually get away, or a _Boheme_ where Mimi recovers.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Tannhauser went to Venusberg again and never received salvation for his soul, which is probably a fate far worse than death.


Unless we assume that as lover of goddess he shared her immortality.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

> Tannhauser went to Venusberg again and never received salvation for his soul, which is probably a fate far worse than death.


I'm sorry but I watched the DVD two weeks ago and the guy dies in salvation...LOL We're not speaking about the same Tannhäuser, are we?

I was right:

Act 1 The Venusberg (the Hörselberg of "Frau Holda" in Thuringia, in the vicinity of Eisenach.) Tannhäuser is held there a willing captive through his love for Venus. (Ballet scene; bacchanalian music.) Following the orgy of the ballet, Tannhäuser's desires are finally satiated, and he longs for freedom, spring and the sound of church bells. Once again he takes up his harp and pays homage to the goddess in a passionate love song, which he ends with an earnest plea to be allowed to depart. When Venus again tries to charm him, he declares: "My salvation rests in Mary, the mother of God." These words break the unholy spell. Venus and her attendants disappear, and he suddenly finds himself just below the Wartburg. It is springtime; a young shepherd sits upon a rock and pipes an ode to spring; pilgrims in procession pass Tannhäuser as he stands motionless, and he sinks to his knees, overcome with gratitude. He is discovered by the landgrave and his companions, Wolfram, Walther, Biterolf, Reinmar, and Heinrich. They joyfully welcome the young singer, who had originally fled from the court because he was shamefully bested in the prize-singing contest. He initially refuses to join them, but when Wolfram informs him that his song has gained for him the heart of Elisabeth, he relents and follows the landgrave and the singers to the Wartburg.
[edit] Act 2 The Wartburg in Eisenach Hall of the Wartburg. Elisabeth has been living in seclusion since Tannhäuser's disappearance. When she hears of his return, she joyfully agrees to be present at a prize contest of song, and enters the hall. Wolfram leads Tannhäuser to her; he loves her, but dares not tell her the evil he has done. The Landgrave and Elisabeth receive the guests who assemble for the contest, the noblemen of the neighbourhood, who appear in rich attire. (March and chorus.) The Landgrave announces the subject of the contestants' songs is to be "love's awakening". Elisabeth will grant the victor one wish, whatever it may be. Wolfram performs first; he declares that love is like a pure stream, which should never be troubled. Tannhäuser replies hotly that he finds the highest love only in the pleasure of the senses. The other singers support Wolfram. Tannhäuser replies to each separately, and at last in growing excitement he answers Wolfram with a love song to Venus, and declares that if the knights wish to know love as it is they should repair to the Venusberg. The women, with the exception of Elisabeth, leave the hall in horror, and the knights draw swords upon Tannhäuser. Elisabeth protects him, and since he expresses his penitence, the Landgrave allows him to join a band of pilgrims bound for Rome, where he may perhaps obtain forgiveness and redemption from the Pope.
[edit] Act 3 Final Scene of Tannhäuser- Bayreuth 1930 The valley of the Wartburg. An autumn scene. Orchestral music describes the pilgrimage of Tannhäuser. Elisabeth, accompanied by Wolfram, falls on her knees in prayer. She asks the returning pilgrims for news of Tannhäuser, but in vain. Once again she prays earnestly and returns broken-hearted to the Wartburg. Wolfram, who loves her with faithful devotion, has a presentiment of her death. (Wolfram: "Song to the evening star.") He sees before him a tottering pilgrim in torn garments. It is Tannhäuser, who informs Wolfram that the pope refused his plea for absolution, and declared that he had no more chance of being forgiven than the Pope's staff had of sprouting leaves. Utterly despairing, Tannhäuser is now seeking the way back to the Venusberg and presently calls to Venus, who appears before him and bids him welcome back to her cavern. Suddenly, Wolfram notices a funeral procession descending the hill, and sees the mourners bearing the corpse of Elisabeth on a bier. Tannhäuser races to her side and collapses upon her body with the words, "Holy Elisabeth, pray for me" upon his lips. The younger pilgrims enter and announce that the Pope's staff has sprouted young leaves, a sign that Tannhäuser *has obtained God's forgiveness.*

Martin


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> [edit] Act 3 Final Scene of Tannhäuser- Bayreuth 1930 The valley of the Wartburg. An autumn scene. Orchestral music describes the pilgrimage of Tannhäuser. Elisabeth, accompanied by Wolfram, falls on her knees in prayer. She asks the returning pilgrims for news of Tannhäuser, but in vain. Once again she prays earnestly and returns broken-hearted to the Wartburg. Wolfram, who loves her with faithful devotion, has a presentiment of her death. (Wolfram: "Song to the evening star.") He sees before him a tottering pilgrim in torn garments. It is Tannhäuser, who informs Wolfram that the pope refused his plea for absolution, and declared that he had no more chance of being forgiven than the Pope's staff had of sprouting leaves. Utterly despairing, Tannhäuser is now seeking the way back to the Venusberg and presently calls to Venus, who appears before him and bids him welcome back to her cavern. Suddenly, Wolfram notices a funeral procession descending the hill, and sees the mourners bearing the corpse of Elisabeth on a bier. Tannhäuser races to her side and collapses upon her body with the words, "Holy Elisabeth, pray for me" upon his lips. The younger pilgrims enter and announce that the Pope's staff has sprouted young leaves, a sign that Tannhäuser *has obtained God's forgiveness.*Martin


Holy Cimoli!

Well, at least now I don't need to check out Tannhauser. In fact, if I do, may my staff sprout young leaves!

:devil:


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## Poppin' Fresh (Oct 24, 2009)

In Wagner's case the seemingly random deaths of the main characters at the end of the operas signify some sort of transformation or transcendence of either the characters themselves, the world, or have some sort of allegorical significance.

In general though it probably has to do with the nature of tragedies, downfalls brought about by extenuating circumstances or internal flaws and usually lead to death to really bring home the futility of the characters involved.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*I vote!*

I vote for fashion again!

Since Shakespeare drama was often related to death...Nowadays less and less.

Dramas can be very different, often sexual, drugs, prostitution, family ties...so many so many...But death it is still a favourite...Arthur Miller's *death of a salesman*...proves that death is the real drama here...

You want a comedy to become a drama? Kill one or two characters!

Martin, "Ia umeraiu" (finale of Mazeppa).


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I'm sorry but I watched the DVD two weeks ago and the guy dies in salvation...LOL We're not speaking about the same Tannhäuser, are we?


I am talking about the tale which the opera is based on, not the opera:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannhäuser


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

Western theatre can be traced back to Greek tragedy, which is fundamentally intertwined with the Western tradition of mimetic/representational art. Aristotle stipulated that tragedy is the most complete representation of life in theatre as it follows the laws of probability to their end. Nietzsche had a different theory and claimed tragedy appealed to the Greeks for different reasons. I love the way he puts it.

_"Before tragedy, what is warlike in our soul celebrates its Saturnalia; whoever is used to suffering, whoever seeks out suffering, the heroic man praises his own being through tragedy - to him alone the tragedian presents this drink of sweetest cruelty."_

Wagner's reasons for using tragedy are quite different also. It's true enough that he intended to revive ancient tragic theatre, but his own brand of tragedy, particularly in Tristan und Isolde and Twilight of the Gods saw his heroines dying for a higher purpose and as the ultimate negation of the will as it is understood in the pessimistic philosophy of Schopenhauer.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

many intersting things here coming from interesting people...When I was young and bright and plenty of health I loved tragedy...I am quite healthy but lesssssssssssssssssssssss young and lesssssssssssssssssss smart (or I fell so) and I love comedy, happy endings...Like Cenerentola or the Barbiere...Or the love for 3 oranges (Prokofiev) or the bethrotal in the convent (Prokofiev)....LOL...or even La fanciulla del West (Puccini)...

As soon as somebody dies a comedy becomes a drama or a tragedy. What is the difference of a Tragedy and a drama...I don't really know. Maybe some smart guy could explain it for us.
I saw in Moscow an opera called "a tragic comedy", and another called the great friendship..., very communist indeed (1970).


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## Jean Christophe Paré (Nov 21, 2010)

Actually, drama is more of a middle-ground between tragedy and comedy. A comedy is light and meant for pure entertainment. Tragedies are excessively heavy and tend to have very bad endings. Tragedies often border the unrealistic because of it being too extreme. The same for comedy as it depicts the world only on a first layer. Surely, that isn't always the case; some do hide second and third levels of comprehension within comedy, but that isn't typical, I would say.

Dramas, however, tend to be closer to reality; such, it tends to have both a lighter and a darker side to it, as reality is, too. It is not as light as a comedy, nor as dark as a tragedy, providing a middle ground.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

> Actually, drama is more of a middle-ground between tragedy and comedy. A comedy is light and meant for pure entertainment. Tragedies are excessively heavy and tend to have very bad endings. Tragedies often border the unrealistic because of it being too extreme. The same for comedy as it depicts the world only on a first layer. Surely, that isn't always the case; some do hide second and third levels of comprehension within comedy, but that isn't typical, I would say.
> 
> Dramas, however, tend to be closer to reality; such, it tends to have both a lighter and a darker side to it, as reality is, too. It is not as light as a comedy, nor as dark as a tragedy, providing a middle ground.


It makes sense...Then Argentina is living a tragedy...not a drama (the country where I was born)....LOL
Nothing's good! Canada is a drama...but USA lately is a tragedy...the country is going down and people don't even notice so...It is sad. (I told you I am not very smart). They are always convinced they're the most powerful country in the world...Maybe my message will be censored...LOL.

I hope me and my message will survive. They have already censored my messages...

Martin


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili (Jan 26, 2010)

If you read J. R. R Tolkien's letters about his works, you will see that 'tragedy' and 'fall' are essential elements in making the story interesting.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Are you speaking about the "lord of the rings"?, I am not a fan of this, my son was...I think that when we live enough to cry enough we start appreciating good comedies and each moment we can laugh. Laugh,who doesn't like that...Everybody does. Life is hard and when we have to face another drama that is not our own...Let me tell you...Operas are different I think...I don't see that as a drama in a play...it is less serious. It is just music that we love with a story (often incredible).

Martin


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili (Jan 26, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Are you speaking about the "lord of the rings"?, I am not a fan of this, my son was...I think that when we live enough to cry enough we start appreciating good comedies and each moment we can laugh. Laugh,who doesn't like that...Everybody does. Life is hard and when we have to face another drama that is not our own...Let me tell you...Operas are different I think...I don't see that as a drama in a play...it is less serious. It is just music that we love with a story (often incredible).
> 
> Martin


I read the Lord of the Rings Trilogy three times, and also I read most of Tolkien's works. I really like them. As to the letter, its found in the intruduction section of his Silmarillion.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Dear friend,*


```
I read the Lord of the Rings Trilogy three times, and also I read most of Tolkien's works. I really like them. As to the letter, its found in the intruduction section of his Silmarillion.
```
I don't have it and I don't have access to it, would you be so kind to "phrase it for me" or give me a link...like we always do here to make a music we know known by others with youtube, etc....

I like reading very much, especially, Philippa Gregory, I also like fairy tales like Harry Potter but I have to confess that even the 1st movie of the _lord of the rings _was painful for me.

Question of tastes...but if it says something interesting you could repeat it here, I suppose.

Thank you.

Martin

:tiphat:


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## Falstaft (Mar 27, 2010)

Though perhaps beyond the scope of this thread, a lot of the death that happens in 19th century opera has something to do with a culture that demanded suppression or sacrifice from women. Cf the recurrent tropes of the "hero redeemed by the death of the heroine," the "fallen woman," the "hysterial woman," the "tragically overassertive woman" , etc.

If this line of critique interests you, there is a lot of interesting material written on this topic, as in http://www.amazon.com/Opera-Undoing-Women-Catherine-Clement/dp/0816635269,


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*I read the critics.....*


```
Though perhaps beyond the scope of this thread, a lot of the death that happens in 19th century opera has something to do with a culture that demanded suppression or sacrifice from women. Cf the recurrent tropes of the "hero redeemed by the death of the heroine," the "fallen woman," the "hysterial woman," the "tragically overassertive woman" , etc.
```
I read it...the delicate matter about this is that:

a) I don't know if you are a male or a female.
b) I come from a "macho" country
c) I am a male
d) I know many operas where male and female die: Lulu, Wozzeck.
e) in real life women live longer than male...

Usually...female are considered more fragile and we suffer more when they die....and they never die from an ilness (other than T.B.)...Not cancer or syphillis...LOL

Some females are bad (Ortrud in Lohengrin, if I recall well) but she doesn't die, does she?

I love women

I think operas in the XXIst century should review this concept. Drama doesn't mean death....and sometimes death doesn't mean drama (????).

Best

Martin


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Some females are bad (Ortrud in Lohengrin, if I recall well) but she doesn't die, does she?


The libretto says that "when Ortrud sees Gottfried (Elsa's brother), she falls to the ground". So it depends on your interpetation on what "falling to the ground" means. The common interpetation is that she bites the dust.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*maybe...*


```
The libretto says that "when Ortrud sees Gottfried (Elsa's brother), she falls to the ground". So it depends on your interpetation on what "falling to the ground" means. The common interpetation is that she bites the dust.
```
Well...I saw Lohengrin in a DVD about 3 months ago...I don't remember the scene...But Elsa was stupid enough listening to this gossip...Maybe now that the feminist won many rights, men will be considered victims as well.... XXIst operas will speak about men diying...LOL. I don't like feminism.

I still don't know if you are a man or a woman.

Martin


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