# O ye Mozart detractors, repent!



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Who else, of all the composers that ever lived, could have written this? From the 19-year old Mozart, the slow movement of his 5th Violin Concerto.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Yes I know.

All the musicologists I have read on this and the two concertos that preceded it are baffled by the stellar quality of the music. If you listen to Mozart works that are contemporary with these concertos, it doesn't seem to make sense. 

It would have been interesting to hear a violin concerto from his mature years but these early works really sparkle with the exuberance and optimism of youth. As for the profound emotions of the middle movements - I don't know what to say just quote Alfred Einstein who said of K216 that the middle mvt "dropped straight from heaven".


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Frankly whether all the Mozart detractors repent or not doesn't matter to me. I just go ahead and enjoy his sublime music.


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## Guest (May 8, 2019)

As I initially explored Classical music, I started out loving Mozart. Then as I started to explore more, he fell somewhat out of favor in my catalog. As my tastes matured more, and I find I appreciate more, I have come back to Mozart. I find his music to have both superficiality and depth that rewards both newcomers and experienced listeners. When I was in between, I had just enough knowledge to be wrong in such broad ways. I'm glad I have come back to composers like Mozart and Haydn.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

KenOC said:


> Who else, of all the composers that ever lived, could have written this? From the 19-year old Mozart, the slow movement of his 5th Violin Concerto.


WEll now, yesterday I did post that his 5 VC's were not among my fav(I even went so far as to say they were a bore...???..!!??!!)

I had no idea Mozart at 19 yrs old.
I may have to revisit those concerti...one day,,,if only I could find a violinist I am happy with,,,as of last time I madea compare, over 15 yrs ago,,,i was not completely satisfied with the then current recordings, 
I will listen to your vid posted,,can not guarantee thumbs up.

Yeah I'm picky in Mozart.

It is in Mozart's last 6 piano concertos where he reaches for the stars. 
Especially the unique 25th. The coda/final move,,,
Uchida in those concertos really takes precedence in craftmanship. The vote is pretty much unanimous for Uchida/Tate/English.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DrMike said:


> As I initially explored Classical music, I started out loving Mozart. Then as I started to explore more, he fell somewhat out of favor in my catalog. As my tastes matured more, and I find I appreciate more, I have come back to Mozart. I find his music to have both superficiality and depth that rewards both newcomers and experienced listeners. When I was in between, I had just enough knowledge to be wrong in such broad ways. I'm glad I have come back to composers like Mozart and Haydn.


 I think your experience is quite common. I remember as a young boy liking Mozart then turning to Beethoven and the Romantics. However when I came back to Mozart I found I appreciated him all the more. I saw What so many of the great conductors see in him


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

that would be a good tune for washing machines or elevators or shops selling shoes or neckties for men. :lol:


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Repent? Never. Give me the slow movement of the Beethoven or Sibelius concertos any day.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Repent? Never. Give me the slow movement of the Beethoven or Sibelius concertos any day.


Are any of them better than these?
















Just repent already.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Another opportunity to fight about Mozart. Just the thing for those who're tired of fighting about Beethoven.


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## Guest (May 8, 2019)

As to the 5th Violin Concerto, I quite like the recording on DG with Wolfgang Schneiderhan, accompanied by Eugen Jochum and the Berliner Philharmoniker (paired with the Beethoven Violin Concerto).


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

This did make me repent! I could no longer hold the first commandment - "thou shalt have no other gods before me".


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I have to admit this movement has never moved me, and sounds forced to me, even though all the trademarks are there. I found the one from the 3rd concerto a lot more memorable.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

Yes, Mozart is an acquired taste to me.
I gladly repented.


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## Schoenberg (Oct 15, 2018)

All (almost) of those who dislike Mozart eventually come around to understand his greatness.


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## Flutter (Mar 26, 2019)

KenOC said:


> Who else, of all the composers that ever lived, could have written this? From the 19-year old Mozart, the slow movement of his 5th Violin Concerto.


Meh .. . .


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## Flutter (Mar 26, 2019)

Heliogabo said:


> Mozart is an acquired taste


That's an understatement!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I really don't like this piece.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

stomanek said:


> Yes I know.
> 
> All the musicologists I have read on this and the two concertos that preceded it are baffled by the stellar quality of the music. If you listen to Mozart works that are contemporary with these concertos, it doesn't seem to make sense.
> 
> It would have been interesting to hear a violin concerto from his mature years but these early works really sparkle with the exuberance and optimism of youth. As for the profound emotions of the middle movements - I don't know what to say just quote Alfred Einstein who said of K216 that the middle mvt "dropped straight from heaven".


Many of the Salzberg symphonies were written before the violin concertos and they include this


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Who else, of all the composers that ever lived, could have written this? From the 19-year old Mozart, the slow movement of his 5th Violin Concerto.


Lovely and poignant. Isaac Stern once commented that there were 30 years worth of creative development between Mozart's First and Fifth Violin Concertos, all written in his teens and still played by some of the greatest violinists in the world, perhaps one of the most naturally blessed and gifted composers of all time. His talents were further developed by having a musical and ambitious father, studies with JP Bach starting at the age of eight, exposure through grueling travel to hear the other great classical era composers of his time, and tremendous application of effort to develop his gifts to their highest potentials. I pity those who have no feel for the sublime or the exquisite that he continually expressed to the end of his life. For me, he's at the top of the tree of divine creativity. For years I had a blind spot, never understood what he was about and nothing registered; it would go right past me and I couldn't even hear what he was doing though I was hearing it on the radio; but I finally realized how dense and intense his music is with his tremendous fertility of imagination that seemed to come as a revelation. But then came the epiphany later in life and it happened without trying, rather than trying to force an appreciation that I wasn't ready for. A sparkling performance of No. 5:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I'm not sure why it's the violin concertos that people always discuss when talking about his works written at 19, 
I nominate Missa Longa in C major K262, Litaniae de Venerabili Altaris Sacramento in E flat major K243, Misericordias Domini in D minor K222 as examples of works more impressive than the violin concertos.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Who else, of all the composers that ever lived, could have written this? _

That's what I've said for years about the wonderful adagio from the sinfonia concertante in e flat major K. 297b, the one for woodwinds. Now, however, there appears to be some idea in the musicological society that it is not of Mozart's origin -- the main evidence being all three movements are written in the same key.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I hear so many hackneyed phrases in Mozart that I struggle to enjoy almost any of it; and not just Mozart but Haydn and early Beethoven - nearly all music of that era.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Hackneyed as in unoriginal and trite? Are you sure?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Hackneyed as in unoriginal and trite? Are you sure?


Yes - that is my experience.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> I'm not sure why it's the violin concertos that people always discuss when talking about his works written at 19,
> I nominate Missa Longa in C major K262, Litaniae de Venerabili Altaris Sacramento in E flat major K243, Misericordias Domini in D minor K222 as examples of works more impressive than the violin concertos.


For those who understand and appreciate him, I doubt if his Violin Concerto is any less impressive because he wrote these two other superb works at the same age. His VC is secular and the others are religious, so there's an entirely different intent, purpose and feel that distinguishes them and the time that one might one to hear them. Still, it's wonderful hearing these other great works again in contrast to his VC which many listeners hold in high regard on its own basis. The Adagio is gorgeous.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

janxharris said:


> I hear so many hackneyed phrases in Mozart that I struggle to enjoy almost any of it; and not just Mozart but Haydn and early Beethoven - nearly all music of that era.


Yeah and there are people who say Shakespeare is no good because he was formulaic.

As we saw in another thread - many people don't like Beethoven.

Dismissing the art of master composers and poets or whole eras of music is nothing new.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

janxharris said:


> I hear so many hackneyed phrases in Mozart that I struggle to enjoy almost any of it; and not just Mozart but Haydn and early Beethoven - nearly all music of that era.


Oh my! I assume you struggle to enjoy any music then? :lol:


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

stomanek said:


> Yeah and there are people who say Shakespeare is no good because he was formulaic.
> 
> As we saw in another thread - many people don't like Beethoven.
> 
> Dismissing the art of master composers and poets or whole eras of music is nothing new.


To be fair to janxharris he is not pushing his view and, although this strange foible of his is not news to us, he is not bashing us over the head with it. There does need to be scope for people to post that they don't like something, ideally stating their reasons, and I don't think he is going beyond that.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> To be fair to janxharris he is not pushing his view and, although this strange foible of his is not news to us, he is not bashing us over the head with it. There does need to be scope for people to post that they don't like something, ideally stating their reasons, and I don't think he is going beyond that.


My only objection is that he is repeating the exact same views multiple times using the same hackneyed hyperbolic language. I personally take care not to repeat views already expressed but try to add something new.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Larkenfield said:


> For years I had a blind spot, never understood what he was about and nothing registered; it would go right past me and I couldn't even hear what he was doing though I was hearing it on the radio; but I finally realized how dense and intense his music is with his tremendous fertility of imagination that seemed to come as a revelation. But then came the epiphany later in life and it happened without trying, rather than trying to force an appreciation that I wasn't ready for.


I can relate virtually word for word to your explanation here. It took me nearly 60 years. Well said, Larkenfield!


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

I can easily cite the things about Mozart - and the classical period in general - that often cause me to avoid. I thought of Mozart in the thread where they are talking about non-linear time... which may sound gimmicky, yet such a concept was not of Mozart's time but later. Rhythm of this music seems more rigid than flexible.

To drive these rigid rhythms, we have the incessant string tuttis, if that's the right term, more commonly known as the saw section. And when it's a piano concerto, those gawd-awful trills that conclude every cadenza...

I'm taking a long break from Mozart now because I get weary of these habits of his and his time. I hear less of them in his late chamber music which I value the most. When I'm in this state of mind - it will pass in a year or two - Haydn and Schubert become my favorite classicists. When I'm in a pro-Mozart mood it seems there is no one better. But I'm not in that mood right now, and I as I said before, if I want to go to an exciting concert, I don't seek out the Mozart dates.

Meanwhile, Jordi Savall is about to release his late Mozart symphonies, and I look forward to hearing what he does with them...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

janxharris said:


> I hear so many hackneyed phrases in Mozart that I struggle to enjoy almost any of it; and not just Mozart but Haydn and early Beethoven - nearly all music of that era.


Don't you dislike a lot of middle Beethoven and some of late Beethoven as well? When I asked if you liked Beethoven's Op.18, Op.59 string quartets or his piano concertos, you said you disliked them all. You even said you disliked Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata.
But I remember you saying you like his violin concerto, Grosse Fuge, and 5th, 6th symphonies. So you really only like a small portion of Beethoven. I also remember you saying you like Mozart's Requiem, 23rd piano concerto and 40th symphony. So you like a small portion of Mozart as well. I don't think you're that much a Beethoven-lover or a Mozart-hater as you claim. You just like a small portion, and dislike a lot of both.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

picardy third cadences, embellishments, tonic pedal points in Bach: if you consider them cliche, they'll sound cliche to you.










The reason why I don't consider composers like Schubert to be among the greatest is because (I don't hate his music) he doesn't do things with this level of logic. In my view, he takes 40 minutes to say something that can be said in 20 minutes.
_"There are people who appreciate Classical logic and intellectualism more than sentimental, overblown Romanticism"._ <-There were 'some people' who didn't get this, so I had to make myself clear by criticizing Romantic ideals. (I'm sorry to people who fully appreciate both types of aesthetics).

And I still think it would have been easier for Bach and Mozart to copy Schubert's style and way of writing than Schubert to copy Bach and Mozart. This is part of the reason why I consider Bach and Mozart to have achieved higher craftsmanship. I think people who say Mozart is all about cliche are missing the point, failing to see the forest cause they're so focused on the trees.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

When I first came to TC, I assumed that everyone here would love the music of Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach. Obviously I was wrong although they are liked by the overwhelming majority. One of my friends here did not enjoy anything by Bach. I wondered if it were really true that nothing by Bach would please him so I suggested the Largo from the Concerto for 2 Violins and asked what he thought. I knew no one who didn't find that movement almost unimaginably beautiful. Well, he didn't like it. Who knows why people don't respond positively to Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, or any music in general, but tastes certainly vary. 

Incidentally, we had a thread on TC that discussed a survey done in Canada asking people whether they liked various styles of music (classical, jazz, rock, metal, country, etc.). The most liked style was classical (something like 73%). We often say that 3% of all people listen to classical, but actually many more enjoy some classical works. I think those responding to the survey thought of works like The Nutcracker, Beethoven's Symphony 5, and maybe something from Amadeus. Anyway, I'd be fascinated to see a survey of general listeners and a survey of TC members asking if they like Mozart's Eine kleine Nachtmusik. I wonder if more general listeners would say they like it than TC members.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

There is appreciating technical craftsmanship - where I agree Mozart is unbeatable - and there is being a listener with non-technical values as well. This seems true for all art, there has to be both active (technical) and passive (sensory) considerations. I don't think Mozart, or any great composer, stands out by technical virtue alone. Non-technical considerations are what lead to subjectivity and disagreement.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Who else, of all the composers that ever lived, could have written this? From the 19-year old Mozart, the slow movement of his 5th Violin Concerto.


In my opinion Mozart's violin concertos are very beautiful indeed, but they are not among my favorite works by him.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

mmsbls said:


> When I first came to TC, I assumed that everyone here would love the music of Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach. Obviously I was wrong although they are liked by the overwhelming majority. One of my friends here did not enjoy anything by Bach. I wondered if it were really true that nothing by Bach would please him so I suggested the Largo from the Concerto for 2 Violins and asked what he thought. I knew no one who didn't find that movement almost unimaginably beautiful. Well, he didn't like it. Who knows why people don't respond positively to Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, or any music in general, but tastes certainly vary.
> 
> Incidentally, we had a thread on TC that discussed a survey done in Canada asking people whether they liked various styles of music (classical, jazz, rock, metal, country, etc.). The most liked style was classical (something like 73%). We often say that 3% of all people listen to classical, but actually many more enjoy some classical works. I think those responding to the survey thought of works like The Nutcracker, Beethoven's Symphony 5, and maybe something from Amadeus. Anyway, I'd be fascinated to see a survey of general listeners and a survey of TC members asking if they like Mozart's Eine kleine Nachtmusik. I wonder if more general listeners would say they like it than TC members.


The Nachtmusik is the ONE piece from Mozart , which I hate, only that one piece. Its like Ravel's Bolero, popular which I also HATE, but love everything else from the master.

Remember Ravel and Debussy did not hate Mozarts' music, they only hated Beethoven's. Which the French have maintained this disdain towards the great Beethoven to this day. 
The fact that I do not find any interest in Beethoven meanings nothing, my voice does not count. It is the greastest French composers, and the 2 greatest of the 20TH C, it is their heavy weight opinions THAT MUST MEAN SOMETHING. 
Or will the Beethovenian s wish to remain in ignorance?
If only we had all of Ravel's critique of Beethoven, on record.

I mean it only too me 1 year to figure out Beethoven and I are at opposing ends of philosophy. 
Read his biography. I guess the Beethovenian's wish to ignore that as well.
Now why did he go deaf?
I know, but ain't saying.


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## Guest (May 9, 2019)

paulbest said:


> The Nachtmusik is the ONE piece from Mozart , which I hate, only that one piece. Its like Ravel's Bolero, popular which I also HATE, but love everything else from the master.
> 
> Remember Ravel and Debussy did not hate Mozarts' music, they only hated Beethoven's. *Which the French have maintained this disdain towards the great Beethoven to this day. *
> The fact that I do not find any interest in Beethoven meanings nothing, my voice does not count. It is the greastest French composers, and the 2 greatest of the 20TH C, it is their heavy weight opinions THAT MUST MEAN SOMETHING.
> ...


The part I have bolded is the one point I wish to address here.
It is simply not true whatsoever. I have been living in France for almost half of my life; I know what I'm talking about.


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## Guest (May 9, 2019)

I am writing all these arguments while listening to Klemperer conduct the wonderful G Minor Symphony No. 25. All the criticisms of Mozart seem to be falling away behind me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The only time I dislike Mozart is when I'm merely hearing him and not really listening to him.

Well, almost the only time.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

TalkingHead said:


> The part I have bolded is the one point I wish to address here.
> It is simply not true whatsoever. I have been living in France for almost half of my life; I know what I'm talking about.


You've just been hanging around the wrong people.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

The only time I hate Mozart is when Eine kleine Nachtmusik is used in a TV ad for K-Tel's "200 Years of Great Classical Gems", including such masterpieces as: Claire de Lune, The Blue Danube Waltz, and The Saloon Song from "The Floating Prince" by Stein...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> The only time I hate Mozart is when Eine kleine Nachtmusik is used in a TV ad for K-Tel's "200 Years of Great Classical Gems", including such masterpieces as: Claire de Lune, The Blue Danube Waltz, and *The Saloon Song from "The Floating Prince" by Stein...*


That last one sounds particularly infectious.


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## Guest (May 9, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> You've just been hanging around *the wrong people*.


Yeah, Americans in Paris kind of thing !!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> That last one sounds particularly infectious.


Actually, I caught it here:


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> picardy third cadences, embellishments, tonic pedal points in Bach: if you consider them cliche, they'll sound cliche to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is supposed to be another (now becoming ridiculous, silly, and with the usual complaints & conjecture) Mozart thread, but here again are some of the musicians who have played and recorded Schubert, some of whom are still alive. They do consider him among the greatest, so right now among them you happen to be a small party of one, as what they understand about him remains unfathomable and incomprehensible as a mystery to you. I'd ask them what their appreciation is after numerous posts have been made trying to illuminate the beauty people find in him that you may have never considered (perhaps because David Wright didn't write it first) and have not appreciated or learned from, not to mention, the historical interest of such major composers as Schumann, Liszt, and Brahms... You say you don't hate him, but you have never substantially praised him either and continue to interject a technical comparison of apples and oranges between composers that can even spoil the enjoyment of Mozart because no composer is ever appreciated within his own light. Technical analysis is not required to appreciate the great composers; it's the combination of the entire effects of their music or everyone would have to be a musician with knowledge of music theory to love them, and there are always the intangibles with each composer that can never be exactly measured but only felt:

Alfred Brendel with Évelyne Crochet on Vox Box
Sviatoslav Richter and Benjamin Britten on Decca Records/BBC Legends
Evgeny Kissin and James Levine on RCA Victor
Katia and Marielle Labèque on Kml Recordings
Bracha Eden and Alexander Tamir on Brilliant Classics
Justus Frantz and Christoph Eschenbach on EMI
Radu Lupu and Murray Perahia on Sony Classical
Duo Tal & Groethuysen on Sony Classical
Aloys and Alfons Kontarsky, Emil and Elena Gilels, and Maria João Pires with Ricardo Castro on Deutsche Grammophon
Jörg Demus and Paul Badura-Skoda several times, including on Westminster, Auvidis Valois, and Audax
Vitya Vronsky and Victor Babin on US Decca
Robert and Gaby Casadesus on Columbia Masterworks
Alexandre Tharaud and Zhu Xiao-Mei on Harmonia Mundi Fr.
Malcolm Bilson and Robert D. Levin for Archive
Jos van Immerseel and Claire Chevallier for Alpha
Wyneke Jordans and Leo van Doeselaar for Globe
Andreas Staier & Alexander Melnikov for Harmonia Mundi


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Actually, I caught it here:


Best Firesign Theatre album: I Think We're All Bozos on this Bus.
Best Firesign Theatre album title: Don't Crush that Dwarf, Hand Me the Pliers.

IMO of course.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

And then you have his piano concerto no. 5, which he composed at the age of 17.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Best Firesign Theatre album: I Think We're All Bozos on this Bus.
> Best Firesign Theatre album title: Don't Crush that Dwarf, Hand Me the Pliers.
> 
> IMO of course.


I agree with you on "Bozos". Best by far, with references to holograms, computers, and the "porcelain astrolabe." ...and there was a catfish, and it was walking..." "Dwarf"was the first I heard.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> " ...and there was a catfish, and it was walking..."


"Ah, the balls are clearing again. The right one is the sun and the left one is the moon. Put what you want between them, and your future begins. Aha, I see you are a sailor…"

Well, you know, you kind of had to be there. :lol:


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Best Firesign Theatre album: I Think We're All Bozos on this Bus.
> Best Firesign Theatre album title: Don't Crush that Dwarf, Hand Me the Pliers.
> 
> IMO of course.


 The Firesign Theatre: where pot meets comedy.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

hammeredklavier said:


> Don't you dislike a lot of middle Beethoven and some of late Beethoven as well? When I asked if you liked Beethoven's Op.18, Op.59 string quartets or his piano concertos, you said you disliked them all. You even said you disliked Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata.
> 
> But I remember you saying you like his violin concerto, Grosse Fuge, and 5th, 6th symphonies. So you really only like a small portion of Beethoven. I also remember you saying you like Mozart's Requiem, 23rd piano concerto and 40th symphony. So you like a small portion of Mozart as well. I don't think you're that much a Beethoven-lover or a Mozart-hater as you claim. You just like a small portion, and dislike a lot of both.


I think rather than the entire string quartet sets I was probably referring to particular ones. I'm not familiar with all of them. I like the Grosse Fugue, yes. Certainly, I haven't enjoyed his piano concertos. Also, I think you referenced a particular movement from the Hammerklavier.

I like the first movement of the violin concerto (though I think it's too long). I like symphonies 3-9, particularly 3, 5, 6 and 9 though with some reservations regarding certain movements.

I only expressed a liking for the Lachrimosa (and perhaps the Introitus) and the second movement of the 23rd concerto. Certainly, most of the 40 symphony is great imo.

I said I liked a little of Mozart but I consider the Beethoven amount to be quite considerable.

Oh - and Beethoven's 14th string quartet is good.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

hammeredklavier said:


> _"There are people who appreciate Classical logic and intellectualism more than sentimental, overblown Romanticism"._ <-There were 'some people' who didn't get this, so I had to make myself clear by criticizing Romantic ideals. (I'm sorry to people who fully appreciate both types of aesthetics).


I think you might be right here regarding this logic / sentiment separation. I appreciate the crafting of Mozart in the finale of the 41st symphony but struggle to take it beyond an intellectual exercise. I have the same problem with much of Bach's music.



> I think people who say Mozart is all about cliche are missing the point, failing to see the forest cause they're so focused on the trees.


Perhaps you could expound on this a little? You accept the existence of the clichés but they should only be considered holistically?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ I always have difficulty with the view that Baroque and Classical music was somehow emotionally cold compared with the Romantic music that came later. I think I know what is meant by this view but it doesn't capture for me the difference. Firstly, aren't classicism and romanticism trends that go through all periods? For example, isn't Brahms rather "classical" in his approach to what is still very Romantic music and can't you hear the romantic ego in much of Mozart's very Classical music? And then, putting this observation aside, music is essentially an abstract art form and our appreciation of it (all of it) is essentially emotional rather than intellectual. I do certainly get different things from Bach to what I get from Schumann but I don't think this is about only one delivering an emotional experience. Different emotions, perhaps?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ I always have difficulty with the view that *Baroque and Classical music was somehow emotionally cold compared with the Romantic music that came late*r. I think I know what is meant by this view but it doesn't capture for me the difference. Firstly, aren't classicism and romanticism trends that go through all periods? For example, isn't Brahms rather "classical" in his approach to what is still very Romantic music and can't you hear the romantic ego in much of Mozart's very Classical music? And then, putting this observation aside, music is essentially an abstract art form and our appreciation of it (all of it) is essentially emotional rather than intellectual. I do certainly get different things from Bach to what I get from Schumann but I don't think this is about only one delivering an emotional experience. Different emotions, perhaps?


I think anyone who thinks Bach's Passions for example are emotionally cold maybe needs some emotional counselling themselves. I recently attended a performance of the St Matthew and have never been more moved in my life by a work.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ I always have difficulty with the view that Baroque and Classical music was somehow emotionally cold compared with the Romantic music that came later. I think I know what is meant by this view but it doesn't capture for me the difference. Firstly, aren't classicism and romanticism trends that go through all periods? For example, isn't Brahms rather "classical" in his approach to what is still very Romantic music and can't you hear the romantic ego in much of Mozart's very Classical music? And then, putting this observation aside, music is essentially an abstract art form and our appreciation of it (all of it) is essentially emotional rather than intellectual. I do certainly get different things from Bach to what I get from Schumann but I don't think this is about only one delivering an emotional experience. Different emotions, perhaps?


I think you are right - it's not always black and white. I hear incredible passion and sincerity in Mozart's 40th.

Of course, it should be said that true Romanticism came when composers were explicitly influenced by literature and nature. But, yes, it's there in prevenient works betraying the composer's influences.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

janxharris said:


> I think you might be right here regarding this logic / sentiment separation. I appreciate the crafting of Mozart in the finale of the 41st symphony but struggle to take it beyond an intellectual exercise. I have the same problem with much of Bach's music.
> Perhaps you could expound on this a little? You accept the existence of the clichés but they should only be considered holistically?







Take Chopin's Waltzes for example, the right hand figures in 5:15 ( Valse Brillante Op.34 No.2 in A flat ) and 18:02 ( Valse Op.42 in A flat ) are essentially the same material.
and the main themes 0:00 ( Grande Valse Brillante Op.18 in E flat ) and 40:28 ( Valse in E minor Op. Post ) are essentially the same.
But if you value Chopin's ability to ingeniously produce "different works of art" using the same material, they won't sound like "clichés", right? It's the same idea.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

The Ultimate Authority on Wolfie has spoken:

https://www.masslive.com/boston/2019/05/kid-whose-wow-reaction-to-hearing-mozart-went-viral-has-been-found-and-his-story-is-incredible.html


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Larkenfield said:


> The Firesign Theatre: where pot meets comedy.


Mozart: where autism meets genius.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Mozart: where autism meets genius.


Mozart… the natural high. :angel:


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

philoctetes said:


> The Ultimate Authority on Wolfie has spoken:
> 
> https://www.masslive.com/boston/2019/05/kid-whose-wow-reaction-to-hearing-mozart-went-viral-has-been-found-and-his-story-is-incredible.html


The story... Wow.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

janxharris said:


> I hear so many hackneyed phrases in Mozart that I struggle to enjoy almost any of it; and not just Mozart but Haydn and early Beethoven - nearly all music of that era.


It can't be forced. But I question whether it helps to continually focus on the negative rather than simply moving on to another composer where your tastes and sensitivity can develop with pleasure and joy, unless there's more of an attraction to these composers than on a conscious level that continually draws you back. In my own experience, Classical and Baroque can invoke just as strong an emotional reaction as anything in the Romantic era and one does not have to get sucked into a negative destructive debate of the superiority of one era over another that can spoil the enjoyment and drag everyone down. Music is music: it only sounds different.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

hammeredklavier said:


> Take Chopin's Waltzes for example, the right hand figures in 5:15 ( Valse Brillante Op.34 No.2 in A flat ) and 18:02 ( Valse Op.42 in A flat ) are essentially the same material.
> and the main themes 0:00 ( Grande Valse Brillante Op.18 in E flat ) and 40:28 ( Valse in E minor Op. Post ) are essentially the same.
> But if you value Chopin's ability to ingeniously produce "different works of art" using the same material, they won't sound like "clichés", right? It's the same idea.


The A flat examples are indeed extremely similar; the E flat and E minor less so - but similar enough to validate your point. For me, these are instances of Chopin that reduce the value of these works. With Mozart (and Haydn), I hear this occurring in almost every piece. In my opinion, only if the melody is particularly strong can such glaring weaknesses be covered over. Of course, my evaluation of the strength of a melody is entirely subjective; others will completely disagree.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Larkenfield said:


> It can't be forced. But I question whether it helps to continually focus on the negative rather than simply moving on to another composer where your tastes and sensitivity can develop with pleasure and joy, unless there's more of an attraction to these composers than on a conscious level that continually draws you back. In my own experience, Classical and Baroque can invoke just as strong a reaction as anything in the Romantic era and one does not have to get sucked into negative destructive debate of the superiority of one era over another that can spoil the enjoyment and drag everyone down. Music is music: it only sounds different.


I don't think this debate is negative or destructive. I'm not attempting any objective trashing of Mozart.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Mozart haters should be sat in a chair and made to listen to the opening few minutes of Don Giovanni or Cosi. Dramatic, funny, surprising, humane, tune after tune packed into every other bar...just the first numbers of those operas are an absolute miracle in itself.


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## Flutter (Mar 26, 2019)

paulbest said:


> Its like Ravel's Bolero, popular which I also HATE


Now *THAT *is surprising, as that is one piece that I'm supposed to hate that I actually don't. It doesn't hit anywhere near close to Daphnis et Chloe but it's still a very mesmerizing and erotic piece that I thoroughly enjoy.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Jacck said:


> that would be a good tune for washing machines or elevators or shops selling shoes or neckties for men. :lol:


that's no argument at all against it's genius!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Beecham's mantra was that if he were a dictator everyone in the world would have to listen to Mozart at least 15 minutes a day


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> Mozart: where autism meets genius.


I know there are these crazy theories as to whether Mozart was autistic or not. The question is why on earth should it matter in the light of the music? Always seems to me the speculation of those who have nothing else better to do with their time.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

...............


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

One in six of those that voted on 'Mozart: God or Garbage?' opted for garbage. That is a little surprising. Is it significant?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

janxharris said:


> One in six of those that voted on 'Mozart: God or Garbage?' opted for garbage. That is a little surprising. Is it significant?


Not to me. What does it mean to you?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> Not to me. What does it mean to you?


I think the poll is obviously flawed - I assume for most of us it's more nuanced than that. It's perhaps surprising that so many were prepared to vote in the negative.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

janxharris said:


> The A flat examples are indeed extremely similar; the E flat and E minor less so - but similar enough to validate your point. For me, these are instances of Chopin that reduce the value of these works. With Mozart (and Haydn), I hear this occurring in almost every piece. In my opinion, only if the melody is particularly strong can such glaring weaknesses be covered over. Of course, my evaluation of the strength of a melody is entirely subjective; others will completely disagree.


I would disagree cause composers like Chopin, Scriabin wrote like less than 1/10 of the amount Mozart, Haydn wrote. If they wrote equal amount as Mozart, Haydn, those reoccurring materials would definitely show up far more often.
And classical-era-haters diss about short trill cadences which really last only milliseconds each time, (can be seen as 'literary devices' in Shakespeare) whereas those reoccurring in the Chopin go on for several seconds each time. 
Regarding matters like these, ultimately the question I'm concerned with is, "so, does that ultimately make the piece more boring/interesting?", "How skillfully are they written?"
( ex. Schubert is great at melody, does that ultimately make his pieces more interesting than Beethoven's? )
Because of skills for proper planning and sense of balance and structure Mozart has in many of his works, they don't make them boring in my view. In String Quartet in E flat K428, the harmony of the slow movement, ( 



 ) the "eccentric" sections, ( 



 ) and the way Mozart cleverly places a new melody on top the original material in the end, ( 



 ) for example. And the "Thematische Arbeit" ( https://www.gresham.ac.uk/lecture/transcript/print/mozart-quartet-in-c-major-k465-dissonance/ ) I'm constantly intrigued by these things. Just as how Beethoven described K464 to Czerny, it's Mozart's way of telling the world, "look what I can do if you were ready for it."
I'm so focused on these things, I'm not really that concerned about small things like cadences. They don't bother me as much as the long sustained tones or continual ostinatos in Shostakovitch's esteemed 8th string quartet, for example.
This is what I mean by "seeing the forest instead of trees". It intrigues me how brilliant minds like him could make interesting music in the style of Style Galante.
Also, there aren't that many cadences of that kind in Mozart's many choral works and baroque-inspired works. Are there any in these?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

mmsbls said:


> When I first came to TC, I assumed that everyone here would love the music of Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach. Obviously I was wrong although they are liked by the overwhelming majority. One of my friends here did not enjoy anything by Bach. I wondered if it were really true that nothing by Bach would please him so I suggested the Largo from the Concerto for 2 Violins and asked what he thought. I knew no one who didn't find that movement almost unimaginably beautiful. Well, he didn't like it. Who knows why people don't respond positively to Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, or any music in general, but tastes certainly vary.
> 
> Incidentally, we had a thread on TC that discussed a survey done in Canada asking people whether they liked various styles of music (classical, jazz, rock, metal, country, etc.). The most liked style was classical (something like 73%). We often say that 3% of all people listen to classical, but actually many more enjoy some classical works. I think those responding to the survey thought of works like The Nutcracker, Beethoven's Symphony 5, and maybe something from Amadeus. Anyway, I'd be fascinated to see a survey of general listeners and a survey of TC members asking if they like Mozart's *Eine kleine Nachtmusik.* I wonder if more general listeners would say they like it than TC members.


Its a shame people only tend to know the first incredibly famous mvt as the whole work is well worth listening to. One of his best serenades. I also adore K545. 
We have to accept that pieces like the middle mvt of the clarinet concerto - or the Bach you mention above - achingly beautiful to the vast majority of listeners - is dull to others. I cant fathom it, but that, Im afraid, is personal taste.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> When I first came to TC, I assumed that everyone here would love the music of Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach. Obviously I was wrong although they are liked by the overwhelming majority. One of my friends here did not enjoy anything by Bach. I wondered if it were really true that nothing by Bach would please him so I suggested the Largo from the Concerto for 2 Violins and asked what he thought. I knew no one who didn't find that movement almost unimaginably beautiful. Well, he didn't like it. Who knows why people don't respond positively to Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, or any music in general, but tastes certainly vary.
> 
> Incidentally, we had a thread on TC that discussed a survey done in Canada asking people whether they liked various styles of music (classical, jazz, rock, metal, country, etc.). The most liked style was classical (something like 73%). We often say that 3% of all people listen to classical, but actually many more enjoy some classical works. I think those responding to the survey thought of works like The Nutcracker, Beethoven's Symphony 5, and maybe something from Amadeus. Anyway, I'd be fascinated to see a survey of general listeners and a survey of TC members asking if they like Mozart's Eine kleine Nachtmusik. I wonder if more general listeners would say they like it than TC members.


I listened to Eine Kleine Nactmusik when I was young. I used to like it and thought it was catchy and interesting, it was one of the first pieces of Classical music I listened to. But over time, it is only the last Rondo that I'm more interested in, the playfulness, and rhythms. The other movements feel too formal to me, or else they became too familiar. But there is a recording by Klemperer on Testament (not the EMI) that manages to keep it all fresh.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Phil loves classical said:


> I listened to Eine Kleine Nactmusik when I was young. I used to like it and thought it was catchy and interesting, it was one of the first pieces of Classical music I listened to. But over time, it is only the last Rondo that I'm more interested in, the playfulness, and rhythms. The other movements feel too formal to me, or else they became too familiar. But there is a recording by Klemperer on Testament (not the EMI) that manages to keep it all fresh.


I know that some members loose interest in a work after hearing it too often. I've never experienced that phenomenon. Works I come to enjoy continue to give me pleasure, and I expect they always will. I almost never choose to play Eine Kleine Nactmusik since there are so many other Mozart pieces I like more, but whenever I hear it in commercials, on the radio, or elsewhere. I always find it a pure delight.


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## Guest (May 11, 2019)

All of the more popular works are still very enjoyable to me, but one work that I really enjoy is the Divertimento in E flat major, K. 563.


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## Guest (May 11, 2019)

Phil loves classical said:


> I listened to Eine Kleine Nactmusik when I was young. I used to like it and thought it was catchy and interesting, it was one of the first pieces of Classical music I listened to. But over time, it is only the last Rondo that I'm more interested in, the playfulness, and rhythms. The other movements feel too formal to me, or else they became too familiar. But there is a recording by Klemperer on Testament (not the EMI) that manages to keep it all fresh.


I'll have to look for the Klemperer, but I quite enjoy Manze's recording on HM.


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> I would disagree...


I don't know whether you realize it or not, but this makes about, oh, 500 times or so that you've posted YT videos of K477.

Please, give us a break.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Bluecrab said:


> I don't know whether you realize it or not, but this makes about, oh, 500 times or so that you've posted YT videos of K477.
> Please, give us a break.


I didn't realize. But this work apparently involves a lot of discussions.
For example, when discussing enlightenment and classicism, I found it appropriate to reference it,
as well, when discussing Mozart's use of unconventional instruments, 
also when discussing Mozart's works 'sounding like' Mahler, I saw fit to reference it.
It's also one of his lesser-known works, which makes it more interesting for discussion regarding Mozart. 
(In the case of Eine Kleine Natchmusik, on the other hand, obviously, everyone knows the work, I wouldn't need to tell people "hey, there's a work called EKN by Mozart!" or post the link to a video of the work.)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

hammeredklavier said:


> I would disagree cause composers like Chopin, Scriabin wrote like less than 1/10 of the amount Mozart, Haydn wrote. If they wrote equal amount as Mozart, Haydn, those reoccurring materials would definitely show up far more often.


I accept you are probably right.



> And classical-era-haters diss about short trill cadences which really last only milliseconds each time, (can be seen as 'literary devices' in Shakespeare) whereas those reoccurring in the Chopin go on for several seconds each time.


Not forgetting all the cadences not involving trills. Each cadence lasts more than a few millisecond and their accumulated effect is quite overwhelming for me.



> Regarding matters like these, ultimately the question I'm concerned with is, "so, does that ultimately make the piece more boring/interesting?", "How skillfully are they written?"
> ( ex. Schubert is great at melody, does that ultimately make his pieces more interesting than Beethoven's? )
> Because of skills for proper planning and sense of balance and structure Mozart has in many of his works, they don't make them boring in my view.


It is certainly a matter of personal taste.



> In String Quartet in E flat K428, the harmony of the slow movement, (
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It would seem that we are polar opposites regarding this matter. Unless I hear what I consider to be a very strong melody, which will seemingly 'hide' such cadences, then they are all I hear and anticipate. I simply conclude that the piece hasn't enough definition to be considered great. The slow movement of the 16th string quartet you cited is full of them.

Of course, 18th century music was built on these chord progressions, so this isn't only about Mozart.



> Also, there aren't that many cadences of that kind in Mozart's many choral works and baroque-inspired works. Are there any in these?


I noticed them more in the second example - the fantasia.

The first sounds very much like Bach. Beethoven was clearly influenced by K. 477.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I find this thread humorous how those who don't understand people not liking Mozart or certain composers (Beethoven, Bach, classical, etc) even go on to passively insult them. :lol: A "mainstream" quality of sound or craft doesn't necessarily make it the best sound for everyone. If someone is at a different stage of evolution in the branch that romantic and contemporary created, that's actually perfectly normal. If you hate Schubert but love Debussy, if you hate Handel but love Mahler, if you'd rather listen to Stravinsky over Bach, then let the good music roll. At least some people are appreciating what all those modern composers thought was good music, composers who didn't try composing like Bach or Beethoven for a reason, but moved on with reality, and had just as good a time.

Music after classical has way more branches to understand--some people have moved on or evolved to understand these better than classical-lovers here, and see the perfection in them instead. The greatest composers are not stuck in one era. *The mainstream sound is.* Every subconscious will attach to what it enjoys more, seeing the qualia we could never imagine. The mainstream can make the case that Mozart-haters have mental problems. Well, some news: I can just as easily make the case that the mainstream lovers are closed-minded, which matches all trends in art: Only the minority of people like good music, thus, only the minority of classical listeners understand _great_ music. So these insults, as you can see, go nowhere.


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