# The craziest, wildest and most daring Fugue subjects of the Baroque...?



## kfriegedank (Feb 27, 2020)

There are plenty that I know of, which I shall let others mention as a way of discussion and conglomerating several such Fugues into one post, but I want to share what I think beats them all, from Jan Dismas Zelenka's Missa Omnium Sanctorum, ZWV 21 - a chromatic leaping up and down subject that only a genius like him (on par with Bach) could compose a fully fledged Fugue out of with 4 part harmony.

> The video should start at the Fugue mentioned, if not, skip to 4:58 <


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

7:00





as for the "cutest", I nominate:


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

kfriegedank said:


> There are plenty that I know of, which I shall let others mention as a way of discussion and conglomerating several such Fugues into one post, but I want to share what I think beats them all, from Jan Dismas Zelenka's Missa Omnium Sanctorum, ZWV 21 - a chromatic leaping up and down subject that only a genius like him (on par with Bach) could compose a fully fledged Fugue out of with 4 part harmony.
> 
> > The video should start at the Fugue mentioned, if not, skip to 4:58 <


Great fugue subject. Love the use of choir to double the parts.

I don't think the subject is all THAT strange, though. Yeah, it has some leaps, but it's not that weird.

But really, a wonderful fugue.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I agree with Zach. There's nothing peculiar or difficult about that subject. Leaps to a repeated note (pedal tone) don't present any special challenges.


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## kfriegedank (Feb 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> 7:00
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you are going to do Bach may as well add the chromatic Fantasy and Fugue subject - performance by Trevor Pinnock:


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## kfriegedank (Feb 27, 2020)

EdwardBast said:


> I agree with Zach. There's nothing peculiar or difficult about that subject. Leaps to a repeated note (pedal tone) don't present any special challenges.


If it isn't peculiar I would be happy to hear lots of references of similar Fugues... you do agree though it is at least ingenious the way the counterpoint is laid out, and all those rarely heard quadruple stops (for the Baroque).


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Handel, _The Messiah_ Amen fugue.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

The second and third subjects from this triple fugue. This one has always sounded "modern" to me:


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I agree with Hammeredklavier, the subject in Bach's 24th fugue in B minor is easily the craziest before the 20th century.

This one by Shostakovich is crazier, starts around 2:53






And maybe this one from around 2:20


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

The opening chorus here has a bizarrely warped theme not at dissimilar from that of the famous Wedge fugue. 





This contains all twelve notes of the chromatic scale:





4:25 here:


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

From the Bach cantatas there's also no. 14.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The opening chorus here has a bizarrely warped theme not at dissimilar from that of the famous Wedge fugue.


Although I like the melodies/harmonies of the piece, the way it develops (I'm familiar with the music set as BWV236/i), but I don't really see how the subject is as "bizarrely warped" as that of the wedge fugue:


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

^Yeah, I should have posted that one instead. The missae brevae definitely tend to be overlooked.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)




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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> 4:25 here:


this one seems comparable to

22:56


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

It's not a "Baroque" fugue in chronological time, perhaps. But it is rather baroque, in the more general meaning of that word as "strange" or "weird". Written by a 20th century composer who would have been well at home in Bach's era, and maybe preferably at home there.

For the two of you who haven't yet experienced this one: Glenn Gould's "So You Want To Write A Fugue".






And an alternate version:






Call me baroque, too, if you will, but this remains my favorite "sing along" song. I regret I can only do one part at a time. Alas ....


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Phil loves classical said:


> I agree with Hammeredklavier, the subject in Bach's 24th fugue in B minor is easily the craziest before the 20th century.


Bach's aim was clearly to use all the notes of the scale in one single fugue subject. I think he solved the task in a way very typical of him, and I do not hear any weirdness in it.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

premont said:


> Bach's aim was clearly to use all the notes of the scale in one single fugue subject. I think he solved the task in a way very typical of him, and I do not hear any weirdness in it.


I imagine for audiences of the time, it must have been quite weird and crazy to use all 12 notes, rather than 7.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

A reminder for some people: this is not a thread for discussing how 20th century music is "weirder" than Baroque period music


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

baroque
Fuga (Ricercata) a 6 voci from Musical Offering





not baroque
Max Reger - Fantasie und Fuge d-Moll op. 135b


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Bach's Musical Offering, definitely. It's said the theme, created by Frederick the Great, was designed to throw off Bach by being monstrously difficult as a fugal subject. Of course, Bach proved the king wrong.


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

The e minor duet from the Clavier Uebung BWV 802 is a wild and crazy thing. Try it. It is difficult to follow, I think, for the ear and nutty to play.


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## kfriegedank (Feb 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> A reminder for some people: this is not a thread for discussing how 20th century music is "weirder" than Baroque period music


Thanks for keeping law and order officer :clap:


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

premont said:


> Bach's aim was clearly to use all the notes of the scale in one single fugue subject. I think he solved the task in a way very typical of him, and I do not hear any weirdness in it.


So . . . you're saying that Bach was the Grandfather of 12-tone?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

pianozach said:


> So . . . you're saying that Bach was the Grandfather of 12-tone?


https://www.talkclassical.com/69140-expressivity-modern-music-3.html#post1981211
"Schoenberg identified himself most significantly with J. S. Bach, despite his insistence that "I am no Bach." Schoenberg believed that he was ushering in a new age for German music in much the way that Bach had done 200 years before. He utilized his portrayal of Bach as a rebuttal against his critics, citing the uncompromising and ground-breaking nature of Bach's contribution to the Western music tradition.
Schoenberg claimed a number of similarities with the great master. His most radical assertion was that Bach wrote the first twelve-tone music. Bach "enlarged these rules to such an extent that they comprised all the twelve tones of the chromatic scale. . . . Bach sometimes operated with the twelve tones in such a manner that one would be inclined to call him the first twelve-tone composer". In Schoenberg's thinking, it was Bach who began the expansion of the rules of tonal relations to include all twelve tones, challenging the rules and regulations of his time. From a modern perspective, he argued, Bach's music no longer seems radical. Our modern eras no longer find Bach's music surprising because we now know what to expect from his music; we know how to listen to what is there. In a similar way, Schoenberg assumed that his own music would someday receive the same acceptance and reverence."
< Handling Dissonance: A Musical Theological Aesthetic of Unity | Chelle L. Stearns | P.160 >


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Using all twelve notes in a tonal composition is not remotely like what Schoenberg does in his twelve tone technique. Bach's music displays highly sophisticated use of harmony, Schoenberg's method is a way of extinguishing, and eradicating the harmonic component of music. So, I see the two as almost completely opposite, regardless of Schoenberg's persistent name dropping, which I see as an attempt to make his new musical approach seem connected to harmonic masters like Bach, Mozart and Brahms. 

(I don't think all of Schoenberg's music is bad for the record). 

As far as the OP I think if one is looking for the 'crazy' and 'wild' the fugue is not really what comes to mind for me. Fugues often contain daring harmonies, and can be very expressive, but in a more focused, and concentrated way. What makes a great fugue is the interaction of the different voices and the harmonies/dissonances that occur in the process. The subject itself and by itself is not really the object of interest (for me).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

tdc said:


> Using all twelve notes in a tonal composition is not remotely like what Schoenberg does in his twelve tone technique. Bach's music displays highly sophisticated use of harmony, Schoenberg's method is a way of extinguishing, and eradicating the harmonic component of music. So, I see the two as almost completely opposite, regardless of Schoenberg's persistent name dropping, which I see as an attempt to make his new musical approach seem connected to harmonic masters like Bach, Mozart and Brahms.


btw, all twelve notes are used in the opening themes of








I think Schoenberg was a good composer, but also was a bit of a "wannabe-innovator", and did not have the inspiration or talents of, say, Wagner.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> btw, all twelve notes are used in the opening themes of
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never thought about that re: K. 491. And that fortepiano doesn't sound half bad in that recording.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

tdc said:


> Using all twelve notes in a tonal composition is not remotely like what Schoenberg does in his twelve tone technique. Bach's music displays highly sophisticated use of harmony, *Schoenberg's method is a way of extinguishing, and eradicating the harmonic component of music.* So, I see the two as almost completely opposite, regardless of Schoenberg's persistent name dropping, which I see as an attempt to make his new musical approach seem connected to harmonic masters like Bach, Mozart and Brahms.
> 
> (I don't think all of Schoenberg's music is bad for the record).
> 
> As far as the OP I think if one is looking for the 'crazy' and 'wild' the fugue is not really what comes to mind for me. Fugues often contain daring harmonies, and can be very expressive, but in a more focused, and concentrated way. What makes a great fugue is the interaction of the different voices and the harmonies/dissonances that occur in the process. The subject itself and by itself is not really the object of interest (for me).


I don't think so. The harmony can be hard to follow, and changes often, but it is there. Schoenberg is not that different from this:


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Speaking of Zelenka, I find the subject of this Amen fugue (starting around the 7:45 point of the video) is quite chromatically bold.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Phil loves classical said:


> I don't think so. The harmony can be hard to follow, and changes often, but it is there. Schoenberg is not that different from this:


It is not possible to speak of Schoenberg as if his music is just one thing, its not. It is a spectrum, he has some tonal works, some partly tonal and some atonal.

If we are speaking of harmonic implications in the non tonal works they are there for sure, but I think they represent a kind of inverted musical world compared to Bach's.

"Schoenberg's idea in developing the technique was for it to "replace those structural differentiations provided formerly by tonal harmonies" "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

*Emerson, Lake, and Palmer
Prelude and Fugue
from The Endless Engima
(Keith Emerson)
*





*The Nice
High Level Fugue (Fourth Bridge)
from The Five Bridges
(Keith Emerson)
*





Same 2-voice fugue (Wait, doesn't that make it an Invention?), played live by *Rachel Flowers*


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

pianozach said:


> *Emerson, Lake, and Palmer
> Prelude and Fugue
> from The Endless Engima
> (Keith Emerson)
> ...


That's interesting stuff. As for 2 voices, the E minor fugue from WTC I is for 2 voices, so...


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

consuono said:


> That's interesting stuff. As for 2 voices, the E minor fugue from WTC I is for 2 voices, so...


:tiphat:

I used to compete in *Bach* festivals as a teenager. I love this one, although I don't recall the _*Fugue*_ ever being used as a competition piece by anyone, as it was only a 2-voice fugue, and the _*Prelude*_ to it is an oddity. But I did sight read my way through it a few times, but never bothered to get it to performance level.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

tdc said:


> It is not possible to speak of Schoenberg as if his music is just one thing, its not. It is a spectrum, he has some tonal works, some partly tonal and some atonal.
> 
> If we are speaking of harmonic implications in the non tonal works they are there for sure, but I think they represent a kind of inverted musical world compared to Bach's.
> 
> ...


I believe that statement is misleading. The structure is not built on tonal harmonies, but they are not necessarily all gone within phrases. Even in his 12-tone work, Schoenberg would repeat or sustain notes, that can imply some tonality, although it shifts. Schoenberg is more melodic than say Webern or Ferneyhough, since some notes do have more emphasis or gravity. It's not useful to analyse his music in terms of tonal harmony, but he doesn't destroy it.


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## kfriegedank (Feb 27, 2020)

Littlephrase said:


> Speaking of Zelenka, I find the subject of this Amen fugue (starting around the 7:45 point of the video) is quite chromatically bold.


Great mention - never heard this one before. Always something new with Zelenka.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> this one seems comparable to
> 
> 22:56


1:30




btw, this Missa votiva, written in 1739, contains a credo movement that seems to anticipate that of Bach's B minor


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## kfriegedank (Feb 27, 2020)

kfriegedank said:


> Great mention - never heard this one before. Always something new with Zelenka.


Replying to myself here as I made a score-video out of the original manuscript of this work, so the bizarrely chromatic Amen fugue can be studied better. At the 8:10 timestamp:


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

*Rock bands go Fugal*

*Gentle Giant*








*Prelude & Fugue* by *Focus*


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

the "crucifixus" - "sub pontio pilato" double fugue from ZWV21


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