# Single Round: Handel- Scenes of Horror: Von Otter, Forrester



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Two wonderful but very very different versions of a favorite Handel aria.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

For me both bring the drama you want to the piece in different ways. Anna Sophie has a gorgeous voice but I always think she never sounds convincing as a mezzo, my only bone to pick with her. I am sure I am in left field and am all alone in this like with some other singers but I think Forrester has one of the most uniquely beautiful voices around ( a true contralto- very rare) and the glory of her unique instrument tips the scales for me, though both are wonderful versions. I had a third version by DiDonato that was dramatically and musically wonderful but I couldn't find a worthy 4th to go with her and the scene was a little too long for 3. Harnoncourt had a wonderful sounding contender but they thought it was only important to name him and not the singers so Youtube left me in the dark.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I couldn't open von Otter's video. Here is another one, with English Baroque Soloists and John Elliot Gardiner.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Except excellent Joyce DiDonato there are videos of Elisabeth Kulman, Sarah Walker, Joan Caplan (this one with piano) and a bunch of younger and lesser known singers.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

ColdGenius said:


> I couldn't open von Otter's video. Here is another one, with English Baroque Soloists and John Elliot Gardiner.


Both the video of von Otter Seattleoperafan posted and the one you did are unavailable for viewing, to me. But Forrester is kute enough to me nonetheless. Btw, it's sort of curious when a work of common practice tonal music is said to express "feelings of horror", from our moderners' perspective. There's a good reason why European music moved away from tonality, for example. For some, it was too restrictive for expressing such grotesque emotions. Look at the discussion of the 'Voi che sapete' we had earlier. There will always be fans with their outdated sensibilities (comprising of a _teeny tiny_ fraction of the world's population today) who describe it as "encompassing all human emotions", which can be taken with a grain of salt. I digress.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Both the video of von Otter Seattleoperafan posted and the one you did are unavailable for viewing, to me.


Try this one - If SOF was posting when logged on to his YouTube Premium account, difficulties tend to arise with licensing issues which differ with the country of origin...

I don't know the country of origin for Coldgenius but again, either the use of a YouTube Premium account or country specific licensing issues are the cause of his video not being visible to either one of us in Canada and the US respectively.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> Try this one - If SOF was posting when logged on to his YouTube Premium account, difficulties tend to arise with licensing issues which differ with the country of origin...
> 
> I don't know the country of origin for Coldgenius but again, either the use of a YouTube Premium account or country specific licensing issues are the cause.


I'm in the UK. This one is showing up as unavailable as well. I don't have a Premium account.

I can see the one CG posted.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm in the UK. This one is showing up as unavailable as well. I don't have a Premium account.
> 
> I can see the one CG posted.


Then it's definitely licensing issues - There's never an indicator within the text located underneath the video which would trigger an alert that this will be an issue.

This is what is printed under the version that I posted - 

"Provided to YouTube by Universal Music Group Handel: Jephtha, HWV 70 / Act 1 - "Some dire event hangs o'er our heads... Scenes of horror, scenes of woe" · Anne Sofie von Otter · Monteverdi Choir · English Baroque Soloists · John Eliot Gardiner Handel: Jephtha ℗ 1989 Universal International Music B.V."

It would be interesting to know if any of the above is different on the version posted by CG but even if it's identical, there are going to be times when members may need to post multiple location specific versions of the same work in order to allow everyone access to the composition in play.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

hammeredklavier said:


> Both the video of von Otter Seattleoperafan posted and the one you did are unavailable for viewing, to me. But Forrester is kute enough to me nonetheless. Btw, it's sort of curious when a work of common practice tonal music is said to express "feelings of horror", from our moderners' perspective. There's a good reason why European music moved away from tonality, for example. For some, it was too restrictive for expressing such grotesque emotions. Look at the discussion of the 'Voi che sapete' we had earlier. There will always be fans with their outdated sensibilities (comprising of a _teeny tiny_ fraction of the world's population today) who describe it as "encompassing all human emotions", which can be taken with a grain of salt. I digress.


Then my sensibility is outdated. It doesn't bother me.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Shaughnessy said:


> This is what is printed under the version that I posted -
> 
> "Provided to YouTube by Universal Music Group Handel: Jephtha, HWV 70 / Act 1 - "Some dire event hangs o'er our heads... Scenes of horror, scenes of woe" · Anne Sofie von Otter · Monteverdi Choir · English Baroque Soloists · John Eliot Gardiner Handel: Jephtha ℗ 1989 Universal International Music B.V."


The video I found has the same description.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ColdGenius said:


> I couldn't open von Otter's video. Here is another one, with English Baroque Soloists and John Elliot Gardiner.


I hope this works


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ColdGenius said:


> Except excellent Joyce DiDonato there are videos of Elisabeth Kulman, Sarah Walker, Joan Caplan (this one with piano) and a bunch of younger and lesser known singers.


I was not familiar with any of those singers. Sorry.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm in the UK. This one is showing up as unavailable as well. I don't have a Premium account.
> 
> I can see the one CG posted.






Try this at the marker at 19:09


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Try this at the marker at 19:09


You don't need to keep posting alternative videos - This is the cover of the video selection - US members are able to see the US licensed version - Everyone else can't - Those members who are posting from the UK or Europe are able to see their licensed version while those of us in the US can't. - Either way, this is the cover of the video that everyone is able to access - Exact same video except each has a country or region exclusive license.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> You don't need to keep posting alternative videos - This is the cover of the video selection - US members are able to see the US licensed version - Everyone else can't - Those members who are posting from the UK or Europe are able to see their licensed version while those of us in the US can't. - Either way, this is the cover of the video that everyone is able to access - Exact same video except each has a country or region exclusive license.


That make sense for future reference. This forum is typical of my life: I have always been fortunate to have friends who are much cleverer than me  I might even do that for all future contests- post a pic like that or description for friends like T-London who live elsewhere.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I was not familiar with any of those singers. Sorry.


If you need a pair to DiDonato, try Fräulein Kulman.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Incidentally, I don’t have a problem rooting around for a video I can see. I just need to check to make sure it’s the same performance as the one in the competition.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I hope this works


All the same, doesn't work.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

ColdGenius said:


> All the same, doesn't work.


This is a problem that requires the efforts of the players themselves to help solve. SOF is right about the need to use either an album photo or a description listing aria, performer, and conductor. That way, if CG or Tsaraslondon (or anyone else for that matter) can't see the posted video, they can then find the equivalent version which is licensed for use in their region and post it - which both have graciously offered to do - but again, as with the difficulties that we're having, they need to know exactly what to look for otherwise we run into the wall of "right performer wrong version".


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Shaughnessy said:


> "right performer wrong version".


You flatter to my ears!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Anyway, back to the question of which version we preferred. I quite liked them both, but I do prefer the sound of a period band in Handel and that might have swayed me towards Von Otter. I also found Forrester's formidable, almost baritonal chest register just a bit much in this music.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Anne Sophie Von Otter was ubiquitous for a time, admirably performing and recording everything under the sun, though I never found her sound distinctive. Though she appeared in opera, she didn’t venture any Verdi and Puccini or much of the “standard repertoire.”

Maureen Forrester I remember as a very funny Arnalta in *L’incoronazione di Poppea *and the Verdi *Requiem *under Seiji Ozawa at the San Francisco Symphony in 1973 - a fabulous performance with Martina Arroyo, Placido Domingo and Martti Talvela. I doubt that I could pick her out of a crowd, either, but then, I don’t usually listen to mezzos and contraltos.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The incisive sound of period instruments and Gardiner's faster tempo are persuasive, but as fine a singer and artist as Von Otter is, Maureen Forrester's magnificent voice is a force of nature. I really don't want to set these excellent but different performances against each other, so I'll sit this one out. It's a great aria, isn't it?


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Maureen Forrester -

Chosen by Bruno Walter, a protege of Gustav Mahler, for the contralto role in the composer's Resurrection Symphony at Carnegie Hall in 1957, she followed up that New York Philharmonic performance with many others, under a wide range of leading conductors. Regarded by Walter and others as the successor to Kathleen Ferrier, she excelled in Mahler, but was also known for her roles in opera and oratorio, as well as in Broadway musicals.

The Witch in Hänsel und Gretel was a role into which she entered with particular relish, and indeed she once observed that the roles she was offered generally revolved around "mothers, maids, witches, bitches, mediums, nuns, aunts and pants". She did expand on that repertoire, however, by undertaking such roles as Nettie Fowler in Carousel (recorded in 1989).

Imposing in both physique and personality – she was described as "the great ship Forrester" by her long-time accompanist David Warrack – she had a well-upholstered voice to match. Gorgeously plummy in the lower range, it rose to an upper register that could either thrill with its potency or touch the heart with its delicacy.

Forrester's later years were clouded by dementia and alcoholism. She was also impecunious, having spent or given away all her money. "Perhaps, once I am gone", she said, "the one thing I might be remembered for is having sung a great deal of Mahler with a great many phenomenal conductors."









Maureen Forrester obituary


Canadian contralto renowned for her roles in opera and oratorio




www.theguardian.com





Though Ms. Forrester sang the broader mezzo-soprano repertory, she rightly considered herself a contralto, the lowest and rarest female voice. In her prime she was a classic contralto with a plummy, deep-set sound. Yet she had a full-bodied upper voice and could sing passagework in Handel arias with agility. She sang Mahler and German lieder with impeccable diction.

“Miss Forrester has a superb voice of generous compass and volume,” Edward Downes wrote in The New York Times. “Its color ranges from a darkly resonant chest register to a brilliantly focused top with a middle register that she makes velvet soft or reedy according to her expressive intent.”
At the time, the conductor Bruno Walter, who had been a close associate of Mahler’s, was looking for a contralto to sing in a performance and a recording of Mahler’s “Resurrection” Symphony with the New York Philharmonic. He invited Ms. Forrester, then 27, to sing for him, and hired her. The recording is now considered a classic.





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www.nytimes.com


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

*Anne Sofie von Otter*

"I'm not Kiri [Te Kanawa] or Renée Fleming or Cecilia Bartoli, I'll never be a megastar in that way. I'm not the right type. And anyway, I don't think I would like it. I'm not the million-dollar baby. You need to play the part all the time. Once I'm off stage I switch off and then I'm myself."
The Swedish mezzo, Anne Sofie von Otter has been described as ‘classical music’s Helen Mirren’ and that rarity: ‘a rational prima donna.’

Her voice has been described as ‘Nordic silver: cool, pure, clear.’ It’s not a huge voice; “a light, lyric mezzo” is how Anne-Sofie herself describes it, and she’s often spoken about its limitations, but it certainly hasn’t limited the breadth of her repertoire.

“Looking back,” she says, "I always wanted to use the voice in a natural way, so classical singing, with all that it implies, for me was very strange. I didn't like vibrato. It was horrifying. Whenever I sang in my teens it was with my natural voice...I wanted to be a soprano and it was hurting, so what could I do? I started taking singing lessons and my singing teacher said, 'You are not a soprano, you are a mezzo.' So that's how it started.”

In 1988 she sang her first Octavian in _Der Rosenkavalier_ for the Royal Swedish Opera and her Met performance in 1990, garnered her huge applause under Carlos Kleiber, one of her favourite conductors. “He tries to get exactly what he wants in the tiniest detail. He expects the most of you all the time.”

She also loved working alongside the late Claudio Abbado: “Abbado is very…sensual. He enjoys the passion and the moods of the music. He’s more the feeling woman’s conductor, if you see what I mean.”

John Elliott Gardiner was the conductor she claims, shaped her as a singer.
"Our approach is very similar,” she said at the time. “we often don't have to say anything; he understands instinctively what I'm trying to do while I'm singing, and vice versa. It's a hand-in-glove feeling when I work with him, it's very wonderful."









Anne Sofie von Otter - ABC Classic


Experience the life and art of Anne Sofie von Otter.




www.abc.net.au


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

The voice of Forrester was prettier so I voted for her.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> For me both bring the drama you want to the piece in different ways. *Anna Sophie has a gorgeous voice but I always think she never sounds convincing as a mezzo, my only bone to pick with her.* I am sure I am in left field and am all alone in this like with some other singers but I think Forrester has one of the most uniquely beautiful voices around ( a true contralto- very rare) and the glory of her unique instrument tips the scales for me, though both are wonderful versions. I had a third version by DiDonato that was dramatically and musically wonderful but I couldn't find a worthy 4th to go with her and the scene was a little too long for 3. Harnoncourt had a wonderful sounding contender but they thought it was only important to name him and not the singers so Youtube left me in the dark.


That's because she isn't. Singing middle tessitura rep does not a mezzo make. All the same, she does have a pretty voice, but between lyric soprano singing low vs real contralto, I'm almost always going to pick the latter. Granted, Maureen Forrester is a top rate singer, so she probably would have won anyway.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I am super pleased that I am not alone in my love for Maureen Forrester's magnificent voice. I loved both of these versions. I can see why Woodduck sat this one out. I suspect that Anna Sofie is much more impressive live as she is such a great musician and so beautiful.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I like von Otter much and I'm glad I heard her live. It was late enough, she sang Madam de Croissy, but still could be a center of a production. 
I also heard Sir John and his orchestra and chorus, significantly they perfomed Jephthah, but fully by their own means, without guest soloists. 
So it's painful to vote against them. But Maureen Forrester just knocked me dead.


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