# Double barreled surnames



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Lots of these in music! Some with hyphens, some without, and some merely affected. Maybe we should start with Michael Tilson Thomas…


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

The Spanish are good for double-barrels, like Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos. I guess that would be two-and-a-half barrels.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

My most recent musical discovery: Ralph Vaughan Williams.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Manxfeeder said:


> The Spanish are good for double-barrels, like Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos. I guess that would be two-and-a-half barrels.


Maybe we need to disqualify the Spanish. I mean, Juan Crisóstomo Jacobo Antonio de Arriaga y Balzola?


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Over here it used to be considered ‘posh’, even pretentious, to have a double-barrelled name. Often it was to perpetuate the family name of the mother. Nowadays a lot of footballers have 2 names, I think because so many couples aren’t married, the children are given both surnames. I don’t know how it’ll work out in the future, we could end up with people with 6 names! I’ve often wondered about the American way of numbering the male line - like Loudon Wainwright III, how long do you keep it up?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

LezLee said:


> ..I've often wondered about the American way of numbering the male line - like Loudon Wainwright III, how long do you keep it up?


I'd say at least until we get to MMCCCLXXXIV!


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## T Son of Ander (Aug 25, 2015)

Why did the Russians do it? Like Rimsky-Korsakov or Ippolitov-Ivanov. Which is the actual surname? When R-K married, was his wife Rimskaya or Rimsky-Korsakova? (Isn't that how the women changed their names??).

My recent discovery is Luis de Freitas Branco (no hyphen). I like his symphonies quite a bit.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2017)

Let's be clear about this. It is exceedingly common (yes, in the vulgar sense) to hyphenate a double-barreled name. Gentlemen of class, eg Keir Hardie, or indeed our own Vaughan Williams, would not be seen dead with the blessed hyphen.

Which is just as well...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Maybe we need to disqualify the Spanish. I mean, Juan Crisóstomo Jacobo Antonio de Arriaga y Balzola?


Due to their lengthy names many Spanish, Portuguese and Brazilian sports stars have been better known by their nicknames - perhaps the same should apply where necessary to those in the music industry. 



> Over here it used to be considered 'posh', even pretentious, to have a double-barrelled name


What I find more pretentious is when people use a middle name to make it longer.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2017)

The Spanish have a different surname convention to us Anglos. I'm not sure but I think that they show mother's family name then father's family name. One of our Spanish colleagues will hopefully be along soon to elucidate.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Maybe we should start with Michael Tilson Thomas…


I believe Tilson is his middle name.



Tulse said:


> The Spanish have a different surname convention to us Anglos.


e.g. Joaquín Turina (full name: Joaquín Turina Pérez)

From wiki: _the first or paternal family name is Turina, and the second or maternal family name is Pérez._


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Skilmarilion said:


> I believe Tilson is his middle name.
> 
> e.g. Joaquín Turina (full name: Joaquín Turina Pérez)
> 
> From wiki: _the first or paternal family name is Turina, and the second or maternal family name is Pérez._


Just so, I think. Juan Arriaga's father was named Juan Simon de Arriaga. His mother's name, Balzola, appears in his name as christened but seems never to be used.

As for Michael Tilson Thomas, early in his career he was billed simply as "Mike Thomas." He seems to have found that changing that increased his earning power. At least he doesn't affect an impenetrable accent like that Stokowski guy... :lol:


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2017)

Skilmarilion said:


> e.g. Joaquín Turina (full name: Joaquín Turina Pérez)
> 
> From wiki: _the first or paternal family name is Turina, and the second or maternal family name is Pérez._


Seems like a bit of a minefield.

When a new born is given both its mother's and father's family names, does it receive the grandfather's or the grandmother's surname?!


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

If both sets of grandparents have money, a double-barrelled surname is a convenient way of splitting the grandchildrens’ education expenses.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

T Son of Ander said:


> Why did the Russians do it? Like Rimsky-Korsakov or Ippolitov-Ivanov. Which is the actual surname?


With the Russians, things can get complicated. Read how the Rimsky-Korsakov surname came about here.

BTW a certain famous painter was named Pablo Diego José Francisco de Paula Juan Nepomuceno María de los Remedios Cipriano de la Santísima Trinidad Martyr Patricio Clito Ruíz y Picasso.


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## josquindesprez (Aug 20, 2017)

To make it even more fun, Spanish/Spanish-American last names are patronymic then matronymic, but Portuguese goes matronymic then patronymic. (Just looked it up and apparently Heitor Villa-Lobos is the son of another Villa-Lobos, so that full last name is the patronymic.)

And then at least in Spanish you get into when a woman gets married and takes her husband's patronymic, preceded by a de, so she becomes so-and-so wife's patronymic "of" husband's patronymic, as if she's his possession. Alicia de Larrocha [Alicia de Larrocha de la Calle] is apparently not an example of this, since she married Juan Torra. Not sure much more about her bio, though.

For men, someone like Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos would be named as "from Burgos," as an old indicator of nobility.


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Then there’s Icelandic :

‘Icelandic law enforces the conventions of Icelandic names, which require that the last name be derived from a given name of the father or mother, suffixed with "-son" or "-dóttir". The law allows both derivations to be used, and for foreign last names to be inherited or kept by foreigners. This means that a father, mother, and child will all typically have different last names. Foreigners who marry an Icelander and get Icelandic citizenship can take the last name of their partner, or a patronym or matronym from the name of a parent or parent-in-law; these possibilities are not necessarily open to native Icelanders.’


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

josquindesprez said:


> For men, someone like Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos would be named as "from Burgos," as an old indicator of nobility.


Despite being born in Burgos, his father was German so his name at birth was Rafael Frühbeck. During thie time that he was director of the Bilbao Symphony, the orchestra's manager persuaded him to use a name that would indicate that he was Spanish so he used the professional surname Frühbeck de Burgos.

As a side note, his wife is María del Carmen Martínez de Frühbeck.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Becca said:


> Despite being born in Burgos, his father was German so his name at birth was Rafael Frühbeck. During thie time that he was director of the Bilbao Symphony, the orchestra's manager persuaded him to use a name that would indicate that he was Spanish so he used the professional surname Frühbeck de Burgos.


By coincidence, the Bilbao Symphony doubtless performs in Bilbao's _Teatro Arriaga_, built to honor impressively-named native son Juan Crisostomo etc etc, who has already been mentioned in this thread.


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## josquindesprez (Aug 20, 2017)

Becca said:


> Despite being born in Burgos, his father was German so his name at birth was Rafael Frühbeck. During thie time that he was director of the Bilbao Symphony, the orchestra's manager persuaded him to use a name that would indicate that he was Spanish so he used the professional surname Frühbeck de Burgos.
> 
> As a side note, his wife is María del Carmen Martínez de Frühbeck.


Very nice to know. His was the easiest name I could think of, given that he was mentioned upthread, but I had no idea about the story. Bilbao and Burgos aren't too far away, so not sure anyone would have been convinced, but that's probably not so much the point.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> With the Russians, things can get complicated. Read how the Rimsky-Korsakov surname came about here.
> 
> BTW a certain famous painter was named Pablo Diego José Francisco de Paula Juan Nepomuceno María de los Remedios Cipriano de la Santísima Trinidad Martyr Patricio Clito Ruíz y Picasso.


Heh, I was just about to note that with that artist alone, the visual arts take the prize as abode of the most expansive names. 

Back to music: I have always been frustrated by Castelnuovo-Tedesco's unwieldy name. I'm sure he'd have been more famous if people found it easier to remember his name.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Yannick Nézet-Séguin should be on the list, not a composer but nevertheless .


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Interesting. He was born Yannick Séguin and at some point decided to add his mother's surname in the first position.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Tulse said:


> Let's be clear about this. It is exceedingly common (yes, in the vulgar sense) to hyphenate a double-barreled name. Gentlemen of class, eg *Keir Hardie*, or indeed our own Vaughan Williams, would not be seen dead with the blessed hyphen.
> 
> Which is just as well...


As far as I know James Keir Hardie was 'James' as a child but used his middle name 'Keir' instead of his given name as an adult. 'Keir' was his mother's maiden surname. This is a typical Scots arrangement - my own middle name is my mother's maiden surname (I'm Scottish by birth).


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## T Son of Ander (Aug 25, 2015)

KenOC said:


> With the Russians, things can get complicated. Read how the Rimsky-Korsakov surname came about here.
> 
> BTW a certain famous painter was named Pablo Diego José Francisco de Paula Juan Nepomuceno María de los Remedios Cipriano de la Santísima Trinidad Martyr Patricio Clito Ruíz y Picasso.


Thanks, Ken! And it says his wife became Rimskaya-Korsakova.


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2017)

TurnaboutVox said:


> As far as I know James Keir Hardie was 'James' as a child but used his middle name 'Keir' instead of his given name as an adult. 'Keir' was his mother's maiden surname. This is a typical Scots arrangement - my own middle name is my mother's maiden surname (I'm Scottish by birth).


Yes, that sounds likely, particularly as he was of no blood relation to Hardie.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

For decades I believed that Peter Maxwell Davies was one of these. I was quite astonished to learn last year that his family name is simply Davies.


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Keir (from Gaelic) is a Scottish forename in its own right. We have a couple of TV presenters with that name.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

TurnaboutVox said:


> As far as I know James Keir Hardie was 'James' as a child but used his middle name 'Keir' instead of his given name as an adult. 'Keir' was his mother's maiden surname. This is a typical Scots arrangement - my own middle name is my mother's maiden surname (*I'm Scottish by birth*).


My profound sympathies


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

TurnaboutVox said:


> [...] (I'm Scottish by birth).





Becca said:


> My profound sympathies


And by upbringing and national identification. No sympathy required. 

You'll be een o'thon Sassenachs, then, Quine?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

TurnaboutVox said:


> You'll be een o'thon Sassenachs, then, Quine?


Wow ... he's not as green as he's cabbage-looking!!


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Becca said:


> Wow ... he's not as green as he's cabbage-looking!!


In common with many other North-East Scots,it is true that I have a head like a turnip!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

LezLee said:


> Keir (from Gaelic) is a Scottish forename in its own right. We have a couple of TV presenters with that name.


David Bowman in the film _2001 _was played by Keir Dullea.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Maybe we need to disqualify the Spanish. I mean, Juan Crisóstomo Jacobo Antonio de Arriaga y Balzola?


Only two of those are surnames though.


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> David Bowman in the film _2001 _was played by Keir Dullea.


I wouldn't open the pod bay door for him either.


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