# Jan Dismas Zelenka: Great Composer?



## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

I’m a bit embarrassed to say I just learned of this Czech master of counterpoint and contemporary of J.S. Bach and Handel. After listening to his Miseres, the Trio Sonatas, and some of his masses, I must say I’m very impressed and interested. A significant revival is surely due for the composer. 

So what do you all think of him? How familiar are you with his work? Is he a great composer who deserves to be placed in the Baroque pantheon?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

The fact that Zelenka's music is available and still being performed, recorded and distributed, says something about its quality. But don't get hung up on whether or not he qualifies as a "great composer". If you like the music, listen to it and enjoy. For you, Zelenka will be a great composer, and that is all that really matters.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> The fact that Zelenka's music is available and still being performed, recorded and distributed, says something about its quality. But don't get hung up on whether or not he qualifies as a "great composer". If you like the music, listen to it and enjoy. For you, Zelenka will be a great composer, and that is all that really matters.


I completely agree. This thread is just meant to spark interest and conversation about Zelenka, so the "great composer" thing is just a method of setting the stage.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

His C minor Requiem is gradually becoming a favourite of mine, I don't know where would I locate him within the Baroque pantheon but he would definitely be there alright.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Zelenka's six trio sonatas (or quartet sonatas if you like) are an endless source of pleasure.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

About 5 years ago he was briefly one of the more popular Baroque composers, and particularly his trio sonatas had a really brief popularity, but it seems like he's sinking back into obscurity.


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## ojoncas (Jan 3, 2019)

Couldn’t count how many times I’ve listenem to his Miseres. He’s great, for my taste.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I am somewhat familiar with him (heard a dozen of his compositions or so) and would probably place him somewhere between place 5-10 among baroque composers, behind Bach, Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Handel, Rameau and Purcell. (though there are other great names such as Charpentier, Lully, Biber, Fux, and it is difficult to make rakings due to low familiarity)
His Requiem in C minor is my favorite composition of his (the D minor is not bad either), the Responsoria are very great too (though more difficult to get into). Of course the Miserere, Magnificat. I also heard the Litaniae Xaverianae and the oratorio Jesus at Calvary, which I found good. And he wrote many masses, which I have not explored yet, such as Missa Nativitatis Domini
I think he is still being discovered and recorded.

my recommendations for his music are then
Requiem in C minor
Litaniae Xaverianae 
Miserere in C minor
Litaniae Lauretanae 'Salus Infirmorum'
Responsoria pro hebdomada sancta (this is just 1/3 of the responsoria)
Psalmi vespertini


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

For certain values of great, yes.

He is one of my favourite composers from a period that in general holds little appeal to me.


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## josquindesprez (Aug 20, 2017)

He doesn’t have the range of Bach or Händel in terms of what he composed, but I’d still place him up there with them. I’d honestly rather listen to his sacred choral works than those of Bach or Händel. His masses are consistently strong, so I’d suspect enjoying one, including the requiem, means you’d enjoy the rest. The chamber music never appealed much to me. Some of the oratorios are a bit hit or miss: the Melodrama de Sancto Wenceslao, Jesu al Calvario, and I Penitenti are very good; Il Diamante and Il Serpento di Bronzo not so much. The Responsoria that Jacck mentioned is a real highlight, as is the Invitatorium. If you like one you’d like the other. So yes, great composer, one of the best of the Baroque for choral music.


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## Dorsetmike (Sep 26, 2018)

Some bio

http://www.baroquemusic.org/biozelenka.html

Some Zelenka works free downloads

http://www.baroquemusic.org/31Web.html


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

josquindesprez said:


> He doesn't have the range of Bach or Händel in terms of what he composed, but I'd still place him up there with them. I'd honestly rather listen to his sacred choral works than those of Bach or Händel. His masses are consistently strong, so I'd suspect enjoying one, including the requiem, means you'd enjoy the rest. The chamber music never appealed much to me. Some of the oratorios are a bit hit or miss: the Melodrama de Sancto Wenceslao, Jesu al Calvario, and I Penitenti are very good; Il Diamante and Il Serpento di Bronzo not so much. The Responsoria that Jacck mentioned is a real highlight, as is the Invitatorium. If you like one you'd like the other. So yes, great composer, one of the best of the Baroque for choral music.


I consider Bach to be the greatest composer, but he is far beyond critique. He had his strengths and his weaknesses and one of his weaknesses is the lack of beautiful melodies, at least compared to composers such as Monteverdi, Purcell or even Zelenka. He is however the unquestionable master of counterpoint. So it depends on what personally attracts you in the music.


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

Jacck said:


> I consider Bach to be the greatest composer, but he is far beyond critique. He had his strengths and his weaknesses and one of his weaknesses is *the lack of beautiful melodies*, at least compared to composers such as Monteverdi, Purcell or even Zelenka. He is however the unquestionable master of counterpoint. So it depends on what personally attracts you in the music.


There are so much beautiful melodies in Bachs oeuvre !


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Bourdon said:


> There are so much beautiful melodies in Bachs oeuvre !


yes, he could write a nice tune here and there, but overall my impression is, that Vivaldi, Purcell, Mozart, Schubert, Dvořák, Tchaikovsky etc. far surpass him in this respect. He was however insurpassable in what he did with the melodies. He took a simple melody (such as in the Goldberg variations) and manipulated and manipulated and combined and combined to produce huge richness. The essence of Bach is the Art of Fugue




a really simple (even silly) melody, but he what he does with it is astounding. But he never composed such angelic melodies as for example Monteverdi





I do not mean it as a critique of Bach, but simply as my observation about his music.


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

Jacck said:


> yes, he could write a nice tune here and there, but overall my impression is, that Vivaldi, Purcell, Mozart, Schubert, Dvořák, Tchaikovsky etc. far surpass him in this respect. He was however insurpassable in what he did with the melodies. He took a simple melody (such as in the Goldberg variations) and manipulated and manipulated and combined and combined to produce huge richness. *The essence of Bach is the Art of Fugue*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Die Kunst de Fuge,yes and of course Das Musikalische Opfer

Listen to the wealth of melodies in the French Suites,It is a treasure trove.Well taste differs.:tiphat:


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Bourdon said:


> Die Kunst de Fuge,yes and of course Das Musikalische Opfer
> 
> Listen to the wealth of melodies in the French Suites,It is a treasure trove.Well taste differs.:tiphat:


I know the French suites and listened to them many times and they are among my favorite Bach works, and it always striked me that the French suites (at least some parts of it) are really popular dances of that time. So I even doubt that the melodies are originally Bach's. I believe that he took some dances that were popular at that time and used his monstrous fugal brain to produce the rest.

an example>




does this not sound as a dance? It does to me. It sounds like Fandango or the countless other dances that were popular at that time


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

Jacck said:


> I know the French suites and listened to them many times and they are among my favorite Bach works, and it always striked me that the French suites (at least some parts of it) are really popular dances of that time. So I even doubt that the melodies are originally Bach's. I believe that he took some dances that were popular at that time and used his monstrous fugal brain to produce the rest.
> 
> an example>
> 
> ...


It's not just the melody but what he is doing with it as you said before.It is more than just a nice melody,its takes you into higher sferes.


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## rw181383 (Aug 4, 2017)

Love Zelenka! Besides the works mentioned already, my favorite is the Missa Votiva. It will be programmed in our 2020-21 season


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

rw181383 said:


> Love Zelenka! Besides the works mentioned already, my favorite is the Missa Votiva. It will be programmed in our 2020-21 season


I'm so happy to hear that! It's a great work, I really enjoy it. I hope you have a great time!


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## Tasto solo (Sep 7, 2015)

Sorry to say, but that C minor Requiem that some of you have been highlighting was falsely attributed to Zelenka. I believe the oldest source is a copy (found in Prague rather than in Dresden where most of his surviving works remained since his death) from the second half of the 18th century (after Zelenka died) with just "Zelenka?" at the top. Another copy from the 19th century in Berlin apparently used the Prague manuscript as source and assumed the Zelenka attribution was correct. Hence the work got catalogued as ZWV 45 and two recordings made with the work listed as being by Zelenka.

However, to anyone who immerses themselves in Zelenka's music from the many excellent recordings now available, it will be abundantly clear that this requiem is in a style that he never wrote in at any period in his life (and he is a composer whose style developed considerably!). One big giveaway is the repeated use of the Tierce de Picardie. I am not aware of any one example of this device in the whole of Zelenka's proven output. A more subtle reason is the approach to the fugal passages. The composer of this C minor requiem was in no way such an accomplished contrapunctalist as Zelenka. Moreover, Zelenka kept a record of all of his compositions (and those of other composers in his library) over a long period of his tenure in Dresden. That record has survived (https://digital.slub-dresden.de/en/workview/dlf/112990/) and no Requiem fitting the description of the C minor work we are discussing appears there.

This anonymous requiem is very beautiful indeed, but please don't hold it up as Zelenka's. Fortunately he wrote a huge amount of other great vocal and choral works and much of that has already been recorded. Sadly a lot of these recordings have not been promoted heavily enough which leads to the impression (also seen in comments in this very thread) that the revival of Zelenka is yet to happen. It already is happening, mainly thanks to two great Czech ensembles (Collegium 1704 and Ensemble Inégal) who have together recorded something like 15 albums of Zelenka's music. Beyond that there are ever increasing numbers of choirs choosing to perform Zelenka (especially the masses, many of which are on a level of devotional intensity with the B minor mass of Bach and ironically the latter might have been something of a homage by JSB to his friend JDZ who died a year or so earlier)

p.s. my personal hunch is that this Requiem was by Jan Zach. If you don't know his music, look it up - it is well worth it. His style ticks many of the boxes shown by this requiem. Also, like Zelenka he was from Bohemia and his name starts with a Z. So possibly an origin of the confusion about the name on the manuscript in Prague.


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## Tasto solo (Sep 7, 2015)

Here one of my favourite Zelenka works, one of his two surviving settings of the psalm "In Exitu Israel" in a live performance by Ensemble Inégal. It is worth to look up the words of this psalm text because Zelenka's word-painting is exquisite. Note also that the first part of the final "amen" chorus is *atonal*, yes atonality from 1725!


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

thanks, Tasto solo. You seem to be a real Zelenka scholar. You are right, the Requiem striked me as not really that fitting to the overall style of Zelenka. Do you know what happened to Zelenka's secular or instrumental music? Did he not produce any or did it not survive? I would especially love some harpsichord suites of his.


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## Tasto solo (Sep 7, 2015)

Jacck said:


> thanks, Tasto solo. You seem to be a real Zelenka scholar.


No, just an amateur one. But I am very familiar with his music and also the latest research developments. That is mainly due to the very good website http://jdzelenka.net which includes a forum which is frequented by both amateurs and academics.



Jacck said:


> Do you know what happened to Zelenka's secular or instrumental music?


It seems his main focus was sacred music, either because he felt that was his "calling" or because there was simply no time left over (he played in the court orchestra besides his composing duties). There are only a few instrumental works but what few there are, are pretty much all masterpieces. The trio sonatas have been mentioned in this thread already and these are rightly celebrated and pretty widely performed. The best recordings in my view are by Zefiro (recently re-released) and Collegium 1704 (released in 2017). But there are also some concertos and suites and a brilliant french overture called Hippochondrie (why? no one knows). And some concerto suites called Cappriccios including virtuous horn solos.



Jacck said:


> I would especially love some harpsichord suites of his.


I think it is generally accepted that he did not write for the keyboard. There is something about this on the jdzelenka.net page: http://www.jdzelenka.net/FAQ.htm
However, there is a member of the forum there who has been arranging some Zelenka works for keyboard. They can be downloaded from IMSLP: here


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

I've just discovered Zelenka - was absolutely hooked up by the Kyrie of the Missa Omnium Sanctorum - and am extremely excited to continue exploring his work! While of course a lot of the appeal is in his dense counterpoint and 'weird' harmonies, I'm particularly drawn to his rhythms - it often feels like he's doing something, rhythmically, that I almost never hear from WAM before the 20th century, though I can't quite place my finger on what it is.

I've seen Zelenka described as both exceptionally contrapuntal in the vein of Bach, of course, but I've also seen him described as exploring the emerging 'galant' style to a greater degree than his contemporaries... Do these descriptions refer to different phases of his career? Can they simply coexist in the same works? If I wanted to listen to the most densely contrapuntal works within pre-20th-century WAM, would I head towards Bach, as I would have assumed before discovering Zelenka, or are there other composers that might fit this bill?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

He was esteemed by Bach. Listen to the credo from Missa votiva (1739), which might have inspired Bach:


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> He was esteemed by Bach. Listen to the credo from Missa votiva (1739), which might have inspired Bach:


I don't hear many similarities other than using a chant theme. I would never mistake one for the other, but I probably could mistake this for Handel. Zelenka sounds sort of "Italianate". It's very good music in any case. I just don't think it comes all that close to the structure of this:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> I don't hear many similarities other than using a chant theme. I would never mistake one for the other, but I probably could mistake this for Handel. Zelenka sounds sort of "Italianate". It's very good music in any case. I just don't think it comes all that close to the structure of this:


 Come on, they sound more similar (they're even both in A) than the trill sections in Beethoven's Op.109/iv and Bach's goldbergs, which you claimed to be similar, even though the trills aren't even the same length.
I didn't say the Zelenka is as good as the Bach. You have a penchant to call anything that's not Bach from these times "Italianate", but the fact was the Bach himself was also interested in that sort of aesthetics.

I once wrote:

"...one of the complaints about Bach was that his cantatas were too operatic. More than any other composer he introduced the Italian opera style into church music, something his predecessor Johann Kuhnau had always resisted." <Bach Cantatas Website: "Bach and Opera">

I think people tend to overlook the fact Bach was interested in bringing operatic elements into other types of music, and was pretty forward-looking in this regard - the development of the "Neapolitan mass", the "stilus ecclesiasticus mixtus" or mixed church style, which combined traditional contrapuntal choruses with coloratura solo arias and ensembles, which theoreticians such as J.J. Fux and M. Spiess opposed.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Zelenka's use of the winds and dissonances (ie. in the "Christe" at [0:41]) sounds unique across much of his output:


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Come on, they sound more similar (they're even both in A) than the trill sections in Beethoven's Op.109/iv and Bach's goldbergs, which you claimed to be similar, even though the trills aren't even the same length.
> I didn't say the Zelenka is as good as the Bach. You have a penchant to call anything that's not Bach "Italianate", but the fact was the Bach himself was also interested in that sort of aesthetics.


Like I said, beyond the use of chant they don't sound similar to me at all, regardless of what key they're in. Do Handel's 60-some odd keyboard variations -- in G major, no less, and using the same bass pattern as the Goldbergs -- sound similar to the Goldbergs, which to me were obviously "influenced by" the Handel set? No, they don't. "Italianate" is not a put-down, necessarily. It's just that part of Bach's greatness and uniqueness lies in his ability to synthesize these various national styles in a more individual way without any one style predominating.

By the way it's not the trills in the last movement of Beethoven's op. 109 that's similar to the Goldbergs; it's the whole structure. But yeah the lengthy trill sections in Beethoven are similar to the 28th Goldberg. They even look alike on paper.


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## FastkeinBrahms (Jan 9, 2021)

The Missa Votiva is great! Listening to the Frieder Bernius recording, beautiful, Joanne Lunn is wonderful. Sometimes, surprisingly chromatic. Although I do not really hear Händel in him, I understand the comparison in some ways. He apparently was less influenced by the "empfindsame Stil" (don't remember the English term, sensitive style??). His music sounds very polished, elegant, which I mean in an entirely positive sense. The Italian influence is there, and that was a strong influence on both Händel, Bach and so many other great baroque composers of sacred music, like Schütz, to mention just one of the earlier ones.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

FastkeinBrahms said:


> The Missa Votiva is great! Listening to the Frieder Bernius recording, beautiful, Joanne Lunn is wonderful. Sometimes, surprisingly chromatic. Although I do not really hear Händel in him, I understand the comparison in some ways. He apparently was less influenced by the "empfindsame Stil" (don't remember the English term, sensitive style??). His music sounds very polished, elegant, which I mean in an entirely positive sense. The Italian influence is there, and that was a strong influence on both Händel, Bach and so many other great baroque composers of sacred music, like Schütz, to mention just one of the earlier ones.


I dunno about that, I do hear the C.P. E. -ish abrupt changes from major to minor here and there. C. P. E. may well have been more influenced by Zelenka and the Dresden set than by his father.


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## FastkeinBrahms (Jan 9, 2021)

The CPE comparison is an apt one, good point.


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

I've seen so much discussion of the Italianate influence on Bach and Zelenka, et al. - who were the Italian composers these North Europeans were so inspired by? And, conversely, who are the premier examples of North European church music prior to, or without, these Italianate traits?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Zelenka is definitely a great composer, who has been saved from obscurity today. His concertos, church music and other instrumental works are wonderful.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

cheregi said:


> I've seen so much discussion of the Italianate influence on Bach and Zelenka, et al. - who were the Italian composers these North Europeans were so inspired by?


Alessandro Scarlatti and his Neapolitan school



cheregi said:


> And, conversely, who are the premier examples of North European church music prior to, or without, these Italianate traits?


Kuhnau and Fux's "stile antico" stuff


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## FastkeinBrahms (Jan 9, 2021)

And Buxtehude (boring, even though Bach admired him) or Mattheson, the latter maybe more influenced by the French. Other Italians whose influence was crucial: Gabrieli (on Schütz) and Lasso, who worked in Munich, unclear where he was born, maybe Flanders,
and of course founding father Monteverdi.


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

Thanks all! This will be very helpful in connecting the dots, such as they are, after the Franco-Flemish school, Italian madrigals, Monteverdi, etc., which is largely where my knowledge becomes sparse...


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

This was uploaded today!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Tasto solo said:


> Sorry to say, but that C minor Requiem that some of you have been highlighting was falsely attributed to Zelenka. I believe the oldest source is a copy (found in Prague rather than in Dresden where most of his surviving works remained since his death) from the second half of the 18th century (after Zelenka died) with just "Zelenka?" at the top. Another copy from the 19th century in Berlin apparently used the Prague manuscript as source and assumed the Zelenka attribution was correct. Hence the work got catalogued as ZWV 45 and two recordings made with the work listed as being by Zelenka.


But surely his other requiems are his authentic compositions, aren't they;


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Littlephrase said:


> I'm a bit embarrassed to say I just learned of this Czech master of counterpoint and contemporary of J.S. Bach and Handel. After listening to his Miseres, the Trio Sonatas, and some of his masses, I must say I'm very impressed and interested. A significant revival is surely due for the composer.
> 
> So what do you all think of him? How familiar are you with his work? Is he a great composer who deserves to be placed in the Baroque pantheon?


Yes, Zelenka is enjoying a Renaissance now thanks to musicology and dedicated performers of early music. We are so lucky today to unearth forgotten composers as modern listeners who choose to study and perform Zelenka. This is wonderful:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> I dunno about that, I do hear the C.P. E. -ish abrupt changes from major to minor here and there. C. P. E. may well have been more influenced by Zelenka and the Dresden set than by his father.


"C.P. E. -ish abrupt changes from major to minor" -- pretty much everyone was writing like that in the 1750s around that area; notable ones being Joachim Quantz, Georg Benda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnificat_(C._P._E._Bach)
"John Butt notes that the Amen fugue of the Magnificat shows similarities to parts of the Mass in B minor, the Gratias from the Missa and the Ex expecto from the Symbolum Nicenum."


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> "C.P. E. -ish abrupt changes from major to minor" -- pretty much everyone was writing like that in the 1750s around that area; notable ones being Joachim Quantz, Georg Benda.
> ...


So what? C.P.E.'s the best-known in the "empfindsamer Stil".


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## Simon23 (Dec 8, 2020)

Zelenka - great? Very strange. If such composers are called great, then it turns out that there was no ordinary music at all - only great music. How does it differ from the rest of the faceless mass that the Baroque represents? Unless his works were played by Heinz Holliger. Here is Holliger - the great one, without a doubt.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

I don’t know, how does Zelenka differ from the faceless mass of Baroque music? How does Schumann emerge from the impenetrable miasma of Romantic music? How does one distinguish Bartók from the dense fog of Modernism? Surely someone as profoundly discerning and wise as yourself can bestow this secret knowledge upon us unwashed, tin-eared plebeians.


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## Simon23 (Dec 8, 2020)

Littlephrase said:


> I don't know, how does Zelenka differ from the faceless mass of Baroque music? How does Schumann emerge from the impenetrable miasma of Romantic music? How does one distinguish Bartók from the dense fog of Modernism? Surely someone as profoundly discerning and wise as yourself can bestow this secret knowledge upon us unwashed, tin-eared plebeians.


You are unnecessarily turning the discussion into a personal one. I just expressed my opinion on the topic.

As for Schumann and Bartok - yes, each of them has its own style.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Simon23 said:


> You are unnecessarily turning the discussion into a personal one. I just expressed my opinion on the topic.
> 
> As for Schumann and Bartok - yes, each of them has its own style.


And Zelenka has his own unique style. Listen to his music before casting judgement.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Littlephrase said:


> And Zelenka has his own unique style. Listen to his music before casting judgement.


I agree. For one thing, his orchestral style is "groovy" and seems different from his contemporaries':


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## Simon23 (Dec 8, 2020)

Littlephrase said:


> And Zelenka has his own unique style. Listen to his music before casting judgement.


Do you really think I haven't heard? Ok, but it's funny.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Simon23 said:


> Do you really think I haven't heard? Ok, but it's funny.


"To listen is an effort, and just to hear is no merit. A duck hears also."

I think Zelenka more than differentiates himself from his Baroque contemporaries. His frenzied, ecstatic rhythms; his chromaticism and harmonic ingenuity; his dizzying counterpoint... among other things.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Zelenka is great. Like Bach, Vivaldi and others, he has his own unique voice and is distinguishable from others (if you heard enough from him). That is why I came to believe that he did not write the Requiem in C (as a more knowledgable poster informed us, it was likely composed by Jan Zach).

My 3 favorites works of his are

Responsoria pro hebdomada sancta





the already mentioned Missa Omnium Sanctorum

and maybe this Miserere





I think I also heard Il Serpente di Bronzo once and remember enjoying it (but I am reluctant to rate it after one hearing)


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I have just listened to some music from Jan Zach to find out, if he could have composed the Requiem in C (which I like a lot). And he could have. He is a composer well worth discovering too, imho. For example here is a different requiem of his

Jan Zach (1699-1773) Requiem solenne in C minor





listen for example to the Agnus Dei at 26:37, but really the whole requiem is great


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Jacck said:


> Jan Zach (1699-1773)


Jan Zach (*1713*-1773)


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## Second Trombone (Jan 23, 2020)

The Zenlenka / Pisendel CD shared by ArtMusic was my (very happy) introduction to Zelenka. Great stuff. He's streets ahead of Pisendel, with whom he shares the disc. I think Zelenka's a wonderful composer.


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