# You favorite odd time signature works.



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

By odd time signature, I mean the less common ones. 3/4 is odd, but is so common it gives us no trouble. I'm thinking of the less common ones, 5/4, 7/8, 9/8 (though the latter could be interpreted as just a jig) or works with bizarre accents making them sound like odd time when they're not. 

I love the sudden flip flop my brain does when expecting a regular 2, 3 or 4 count and then having to play catch up to figure out what's going on. I am less interested in extreme cases when the time changes so rapidly one never gets to grasp it. I'm thinking of Boulez here, though you're welcome to discuss such. 

My favorites? I don't know that many in the classical realm, though I know a lot from the world of jazz and rock. That's why I'm asking. Holst's Mars of course. But its 5/4 almost sounds like a march to me (ingeniously so) that maybe uses triplets part of the time. That's all I can recall off the top of my head.

Could it be that classical composers use odd time less for shock value so that it flows more naturally when they do use it, and the listener scarcely notices it? 

What are your favorite odd time moments?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Weston said:


> I am less interested in extreme cases when the time changes so rapidly one never gets to grasp it. I'm thinking of Boulez here, though you're welcome to discuss such.


There's an odd bit in Stravinsky's Threni (the score is in copyright so I'm not going to post an image of it here) where there's a bar in 9/8 followed by bars in 10/8 and 20/8 (broken up as 3, 2, 3, 3, 2, 3, 2, 2). At that point, it's just meant for the performers, because it's not the way that the audience hears it.



Weston said:


> Could it be that classical composers use odd time less for shock value so that it flows more naturally when they do use it, and the listener scarcely notices it?


Yes. I seem to remember you posted a question like this previously...



Weston said:


> What are your favorite odd time moments?


The trio of the scherzo of Mahler's 6th is a deceptive parade of shifts between 3/8 and 2/8.

Of course, I love the oeuvres of Stravinsky and Messiaen....


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## Turangalîla (Jan 29, 2012)




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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

One of my favorites is the Scherzo alla bulgarese from Bartok's 5th string quartet. Wiki gives the beat as "nine quavers in each bar in uneven groups of 4+2+3 for the main scherzo, and ten quavers in groups of 3+2+2+3 in the trio." This is supposed to be a "Bulgarian rhythm..."


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

My favorite time signatures are the _Aksaks_. These are a particular case of an _Additive rhythm_ (i.e., rhythms in which a "big" meter is constructed by the successive addition of "smaller" ones) in which the small meters are either binary or ternary. For example, the following aksak: 5/8=2/8+3/8. Or, 7/8=2/8+2/8+3/8.
Stravinsky, Bartok, and Ligeti often use aksaks.
My favorite example is the first movement of Ligeti's Violin Concerto:






At 1:45 minutes, an aksak starts in the bass strings in pizzicato and woodwinds, the meter is: 3+2+2+2 + 3+2+2 (the pulse are the eight notes, i.e., (3+2+2+2 + 3+2+2)/8=4/2). Then at 1:59 the solo violin starts its own aksak!, which is: 3+2 + 3+2+2 + 3+2 + 3+2+2 (the pulse are the sixteenth notes, i.e., (3+2 + 3+2+2 + 3+2 + 3+2+2)/16=3/2), and this form, then, a polymeter, considering that in the bass strings we had 4/2.
In fact, all the instruments start to play their own aksaks!. For example, the vibraphone is clear between 2:08 and 2:11.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

It's not quite so out there, but the second movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th in 5/4 is probably my favorite. Time signatures aren't something I'm often aware of, so it's possible a piece I like more is in an odder signature. :\


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

It's pretty straightforward compared to some of the things mentioned here, but my favorite is probably thefinal _Danse generale_ section in 5/4 from Daphnis et Chloé. It has an awesome, natural 'groove' to it, while at the same time being a little dizzying and unsettling.


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## schuberkovich (Apr 7, 2013)

The prize definitely has to go to Ravel's Piano Trio's first movement.
It is in 8/8 but split up like 3/8, 2/8 then 3/8.  Listen to it!!!!!!!


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## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

Does Per Nørgård's fractal-like infinity series, or as I like to casually refer to it, Uendelighedsrækken, have anything to do with this? 

Oh ok. Peace out.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

To go back well over a century, the closing piece of the Firebird Suite is in 7/4 time.

Quiz time: What's the earliest piece entirely in 5/4 time?


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## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

KenOC said:


> To go back well over a century, the closing piece of the Firebird Suite is in 7/4 time.
> 
> Quiz time: What's the earliest piece entirely in 5/4 time?


I think I know this, it's a song-- It's also the world's first national anthem--

Let Them All Go To Hell, Except Cave Seven


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Kleinzeit said:


> I think I know this, it's a song-- It's also the world's first national anthem--


The oldest 5/4 I know of is definitely not a song, and it's definitely in a classical music form. And it's older than that 1828 piece by a BIG-name composer...


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## Kogami (Jun 12, 2012)

This may seem unrelated to Classical, but Pink Floyd's "Time" from Dark Side of the Moon is in 7/4


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Here's another aksak, in Stravinsky's Dumbarton Oaks:






Starts at 8:01 minutes. 
lol, look at the double bass player at 8:11 (the man): that's what I call groove!!!.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"The oldest 5/4 I know of is definitely not a song, and it's definitely in a classical music form. And it's older than that 1828 piece by a BIG-name composer..."

No answers to this one? Don't make me tell you!


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Norse said:


> It's pretty straightforward compared to some of the things mentioned here, but my favorite is probably thefinal _Danse generale_ section in 5/4 from Daphnis et Chloé. It has an awesome, natural 'groove' to it, while at the same time being a little dizzying and unsettling.


I personally like the 7/4 beginning part since it's more dance-like


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

OK, here goes. The 1828 work is Chopin's seldom-heard Piano Sonata #1, whose Larghetto is in 5/4 time. The oldest piece I have found is Anton Reicha's 20th of his 36 Fugues for piano (1803) in 5/8 time.

Anybody have a piece even older?


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

If cross-rhythm counts as an odd-time-signature, there's the second movement of Bruckner's 5th symphony [strings: 6/4, remainder of orchestra: 4/4]... worth a mention. Also worth a mention is that old early-20th century standby, _The Rite of Spring_. I put up a sample *here*.


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## Orpheus (Jul 15, 2012)

To show that the use of unusual time signatures is not at all a phenomenon limited to more "recent" music, I hereby nominate these two pieces:

Bull's In nomine in 11/4
Telemann's Lilliputsche Chaconne in 3/32 (wha?!) from his Gulliver Suite


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Actually, regular time in classical music is relatively recent. Chant and its derived musics are irregular, and fit only awkwardly into modern notation.


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