# Shostakovich bombast - best symphonies



## Gustavgraves

Hello everyone. This is my first thread on the forum. I'm a classical music lover from Portugal, that specially listens to romantic and modern era works.

Shostakovich has been my favorite composer for some time, mainly because of his massive symphonies. Every one of them have moments of sheer terror with the woodwinds going mad over the brass and percussion power. I've heard some calling it "empty bombast", what I cannot agree, because there are no other pieces that give me more pleasure to listen to than those. My problem is that these brilliant moments don't last very long... and the calm parts preceding or succeeding them, although always dark and grim, don't appeal so much to me. While I can listen to many of Mahler's symphonies from begging to the end, loving every note, I can't feel the same with Shostakovich.

Maybe that's the reason why if I had to choose the best movements from the fifteen symphonies, two of them would immediately jump in my mind, because they are restless relentless waves of brutality, from start to finish:
- 2nd movement from the 10th symphony
- 2nd movement from the 11th symphony

Other favorite movements that contain those amazing moments would be:
- 1st and 3rd movements, from the 4th symphony
- 1st movement, from the 5th, 7th, 8th, 10th and 13th

Does this mean I'm somehow futile, or don't actually understand Shostakovich's music, as I just worship the bombastic moments? Can anyone relate?

Besides discussing Shostakovich music, with this thread I would also like to get some recommendations of some other composers where I could find this type of music. Prokofiev is another one of my favorites. Unlike Shostakovich, that without trying too hard to be explosive, nails it every time, I feel that in many works Prokofiev tries to reach something monumental, but not always succeeds. But when he does, the result is beyond words. From the pieces I know, I would name the following:
- Symphony no. 3, along with his opera The Fiery Angel;
- Cantatas Alexander Nevsky and 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution;
- Some moments from Romeo and Juliet and Ivan the Terrible ballets.

Any comments or recommendations would be highly appreciated.

Gustav


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## arpeggio

*I don't get some movements too*

My reaction to Shostakovitch is similar to yours. Although I love 90% of what I hear, there are individual moments that leave me cold. For example there is one part of the last movement of the _Fourth_ that my imperfect ears just don't get it. I am envious of those who understand and like it.


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## Kieran

Gustavgraves said:


> Does this mean I'm somehow futile, or don't actually understand Shostakovich's music, as I just worship the bombastic moments? Can anyone relate?
> 
> Gustav


Hey Gustav,

Welcome! 

This could just mean that you feel Mahler sustains his inspired moments for longer than Shostakovitch...


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## millionrainbows

Gustavgraves said:


> Hello everyone. This is my first thread on the forum. I'm a classical music lover from Portugal, that specially listens to romantic and modern era works.
> 
> Shostakovich has been my favorite composer for some time, mainly because of his massive symphonies. Every one of them have moments of sheer terror with the woodwinds going mad over the brass and percussion power. I've heard some calling it "empty bombast", what I cannot agree, because there are no other pieces that give me more pleasure to listen to than those. My problem is that these brilliant moments don't last very long... and the calm parts preceding or succeeding them, although always dark and grim, don't appeal so much to me. While I can listen to many of Mahler's symphonies from begging to the end, loving every note, I can't feel the same with Shostakovich.
> 
> Maybe that's the reason why if I had to choose the best movements from the fifteen symphonies, two of them would immediately jump in my mind, because they are restless relentless waves of brutality, from start to finish:
> - 2nd movement from the 10th symphony
> - 2nd movement from the 11th symphony
> 
> Other favorite movements that contain those amazing moments would be:
> - 1st and 3rd movements, from the 4th symphony
> - 1st movement, from the 5th, 7th, 8th, 10th and 13th
> 
> Does this mean I'm somehow futile, or don't actually understand Shostakovich's music, as I just worship the bombastic moments? Can anyone relate?
> 
> Besides discussing Shostakovich music, with this thread I would also like to get some recommendations of some other composers where I could find this type of music. Prokofiev is another one of my favorites. Unlike Shostakovich, that without trying too hard to be explosive, nails it every time, I feel that in many works Prokofiev tries to reach something monumental, but not always succeeds. But when he does, the result is beyond words. From the pieces I know, I would name the following:
> - Symphony no. 3, along with his opera The Fiery Angel;
> - Cantatas Alexander Nevsky and 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution;
> - Some moments from Romeo and Juliet and Ivan the Terrible ballets.
> 
> Any comments or recommendations would be highly appreciated.
> 
> Gustav


Oh, dude, if you want brutal, then get The Complete Works of Carl Ruggles (2-CD).


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## millionrainbows

I'm just the opposite; I like the slower sections, like the slow second part of the 12th Symphony, because Shostakovich is such a good contrapuntalist.

The noisy, chaotic parts, like the opening of No. 2, I don't "dislike," but they are unsettling. My nervous system gets more sensitive the older I get. I assume you are in your 20s.


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## Mahlerian

arpeggio said:


> My reaction to Shostakovitch is similar to yours. Although I love 90% of what I hear, there are individual moments that leave me cold. For example there is one part of the last movement of the _Fourth_ that my imperfect ears just don't get it. I am envious of those who understand and like it.


Which part?

The fourth is the one Shostakovich symphony I love in its entirety.


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## Tristan

I don't only like Shostakovich for the bombastic parts, but I certainly do like those. I don't really hear much bombast in other composers, so that is one thing that I appreciate from Shostakovich. Nothing wrong with that. His music captures the terror of the Stalinist period of Russian history. And when I listen to Shostakovich, I don't mind that that's what I receive from his music. Sometimes I feel like listening to Shostakovich when I'm angry...maybe that means something...


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## arpeggio

Mahlerian said:


> Which part?
> 
> The fourth is the one Shostakovich symphony I love in its entirety.


Really Mahlerian, do you really want to know? Since you enjoy the work, why should you care if my flawed ears find one small section of the third movement boring.

We get too many who get on their soapbox complaining about why this or that isn't any good. I am not interested in contributing to such noise.


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## Mahlerian

arpeggio said:


> Really Mahlerian, do you really want to know? Since you enjoy the work, why should you care if my flawed ears find one small section of the third movement boring.


Just in case you're interested in knowing what I or others hear in it, that's all.


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## julianoq

To me is exactly the opposite! I love Shostakovich slower movements and also the bombastic. I like his symphonies entirely. With Mahler (that I also like a lot), there are some slow movements that I don't like that much and feel that could be abbreviated.


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## KenOC

I like bombast as much as the next guy, but a favorite Shostakovich symphony right now is #9. A true entertainment!


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## Cheyenne

Presuming you haven't listened to much of his string quartets: _do_! Those are some of the few works that I find simply _terrifying_. More importantly, however, I think they will help you understand Shostakovich's slower movements more. There is one part in the first movement of the tenth symphony that made me teary-eyed because of its dreadfully dark build-up to a terrying climax, but even that doesn't beat this famous bit from his 8th string quartet: 



 is then followed by a very trippy allegretto, and a demonic largo that has a terrifying returning 'beat'. However, to fully understand the power - for it to have its fullest impact, I need the context of tragedy that the first movement provides. Perhaps you need that too, unconciously? For me it sounds hollow and empty only when listened to without context.

As for other composers that can provide similar bombast, Schnittke may be a good first place to look, given he was clearly inspired by Shostakovich. Despite the fact that you will find many more modern and experimental works, certain pieces probably provide exactly what you are looking for. Say, 



.

Have you tried Prokofiev's second symphony, by the way? 




Going outside the very Russian sound of Shostakovich and friends, there are several composers that do something simlar. Bartók certainly has something, String Quartet-wise: 



. Brahms first and last symphonies are very grand and bombastic at many places too. A fast performance of the fourth (say, Furtwängler or Toscanini) can often make the last movement exhilarating. Go to 38:30 here to see what I mean, for example: 



. Also, Vaughan William's fourth symphony is perfect, you should be able to tell from the opening, haha! 



 There is also the large outbreak towards the end of the third movement of his seventh symphony Sinfonia Antartica that scared me ******** when I heard it the first time. And the next ten or so times. Bruckner has it too, though there it is invariably followed by a soft part  Try his seventh symphony, for it has a bombastic scherzo that is inferior to the calmer movements that precede it. I can probably name more if you want me to, but maybe its better to try other things too.

In any case, if you enjoy those parts, why not?


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## Gustavgraves

Thank you Chayenne for your great answer. Actually I have the complete string quartets on my iPod, but the only one I know (yet), is the famous 8th that you mentioned. I like it very much, specially the 1st and, of course, the 2nd movements, but to me the impact of four instruments is not comparable to a whole orchestra. If I'm not mistaken, there are various recordings of that piece arranged to a large orchestra, and the result is, I think, fantastic.

I'm happy that you mentioned Schnittke as well. I'm very fond of his film music (Agony, Clowns und Kinder, The Master and Margarita...), his Requiem and his Faust Cantata (!!). I've been searching his symphonies, but they are very experimental, like you pointed out. About the viola concerto, I loved it, thanks! If you know similar works, please tell me.





This cantata is different from anything I've ever heard and I find it brilliant. Suffering screams (4:10-4:50) are definitely what is missing in classical music, hehe :devil:!

About Prokofiev's second symphony, I don't know yet if I love it or not. The begging is awkwardly dissonant, but it quickly builds up to some intense music. I have to give it some more tries. In what concerns to Bartók, I know him very very poorly. I like his piano concertos and some moments from Bluebeard's Castle. The ending of the sixth door is very brutal in the way of Shostakovich, so I like it pretty much. Brahms 4th I like the first movement and recently I got to the last one and was surprised by it. And Bruckner, I listen very often to the 8th, the apocalyptic one. It has the bombast, but it misses the cruelty I praise so much 

Thanks for your Vaughan Williams recommendation too, it seems fantastic, I'm certainly going to spend some time with him :lol:. Are you familiar with the beggining of his 6th symphony? It's amazing, but again, it is so short!

Cheyenne, thanks again, I really liked your advices.
Feel free to give me some more )

Gustav


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## Gustavgraves

> I'm just the opposite; I like the slower sections, like the slow second part of the 12th Symphony, because Shostakovich is such a good contrapuntalist.
> 
> The noisy, chaotic parts, like the opening of No. 2, I don't "dislike," but they are unsettling. My nervous system gets more sensitive the older I get. I assume you are in your 20s.


Yes, I'm exactly 20. The only slow part I can say I truly like is the 3rd movement from the no. 5. The flute solo with the harp on background is heart-breaking... About the 12th, I did not mention it because I don't know it very well, but from what I can remember, it has some memorable strong moments too.


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## KenOC

Gustavgraves said:


> This cantata is different from anything I've ever heard and I find it brilliant. Suffering screams (4:10-4:50) are definitely what is missing in classical music, hehe :devil:!


I've never heard the Faust Cantata before. The Spanish rhythm is...uh...intoxicating. And "Eyes and teeth were scattered about..." Cute. I'll definitely be playing this at my next party!


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## Feathers

Gustavgraves said:


> While I can listen to many of Mahler's symphonies from begging to the end, loving every note, I can't feel the same with Shostakovich


I think I am the other way around sometimes, although I love both Shostakovich and Mahler.

In Shostakovich's symphonies, I enjoy both the bombastic and "calm" parts. The two help enhance each other and bring each other out, and I wouldn't be able to appreciate one to its fullest without the other. This is why I love the symphonies in their entireties.

As for recommendations, I recommend Concerto for Piano and Strings by Schnittke (Thank you Cheyenne for mentioning him!)


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## Cheyenne

There are, as far as I know, two instances in Shostakovich's work where he lets a rather 'sweet' and 'innocent' theme be assaulted by either the orchestra or the other string instruments - symphony no. 15 and the third string quartet, the first movement in both cases. That has always struck me as very eerie. Schnittke did this a few times too, such as in his Concerto Grosso no. 1, and, more noteworthy, in a little piece called (k)ein sommernachtstraum. It is not a very serious piece, but certainly fun: 



 Back to more conventional bombast and terror, I would recommend his fourth violin concerto too, though it takes a while to build up: 




Thinking of others (I'm already running low, unfortunately), Arthur Honegger comes to mind. I have little experience with him, but what I do know comes close to what you look for. Here, for example: 



 That symphony sounds as if it is depicting war. Then there is Wolfgang Fortner, whom I only know because Furtwängler played his concerto for violin and chamber orchestra once. His sinfonia par grande orchestra: 



 And Concerto for Violin and Chamber Orchestra: 



 Aaron Copland wrote some pretty demented works, very much unlike the things he's known for: 




Some opera also has it, particularly those by Shostakovich himself. (Lady Macbeth of the Mtsenk District has to be heard to be believed. Just listen to this alone: 



 A critic invented the word 'pornophony' to describe it :lol Wagner also composed some dreadful stuff ('I can't listen to that much Wagner. I start getting the urge to conquer Poland,' said Woody Allen). If you don't like opera you could just check his overtures and arranged work, Flight of the Valkyries and Der Fliegende Holländer overture, for example.

In baroque, you can find it here and there as well, though of course a little different. There's Rebel's Elemens: 



 And Biondi's Vivaldi: 




For the others, you'll have to look into specific movements of specific symphonies. Bruckner, Mahler and Berlioz will yield some things here and there. Vaughan Williams' fourth symphony is an exception - he never wrote another piece with so severe a tone.


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## Gustavgraves

millionrainbows said:


> Oh, dude, if you want brutal, then get The Complete Works of Carl Ruggles (2-CD).


Thanks! I have never heard about him. Sun-Treader seems spectacular.


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## ptr

Never thought of Shostakovich as a"bombast" composer, sure he has a few moments of Bombastness, but he is so much more then those peaking moments! About his Symphonies, for me, the Fourth, Eight, Eleventh and Thirteenth are are the ones that I listen to the most, but I see a very consistent line of composition after the break that the Fourth became!

You've gotten many good suggestions on expanding, for me, I think starting with the "circle" around Shostakovich could be a good idea! Here a few of the more prominent names (with links to wiki-pages):

*Sofia Gubaidulina*

*Boris Tchaikovsky*

*Mieczysław Weinberg*

*Aram Khachaturian*

*Boris Tishchenko*

*Andrei Eshpai*

And two that are often accused of as sounding Shostakovian:

*Eduard Tubin*

*Einar Englund*

/ptr


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## Gustavgraves

Cheyenne said:


> Some opera also has it, particularly those by Shostakovich himself. (Lady Macbeth of the Mtsenk District has to be heard to be believed. Just listen to this alone:
> 
> 
> 
> A critic invented the word 'pornophony' to describe it :lol Wagner also composed some dreadful stuff ('I can't listen to that much Wagner. I start getting the urge to conquer Poland,' said Woody Allen). If you don't like opera you could just check his overtures and arranged work, Flight of the Valkyries and Der Fliegende Holländer overture, for example.


One other thing I can't understand about Shostakovich is that his symphonies are so different from many of his other orchestral works. I've tried Lady Macbeth a few times and I don't get it... The same with some ballets and film music. The Excution of Stepan Razin seems to be one of the few I genuinely like...

I like opera and particularly Wagner. I've made through half of The Ring, and I'm currently exploring Tristan und Isolde. Sometimes I feel like the story and needed dialogs are somehow an obstacle to the music, but it's worth waiting for the genius moments.

Thanks for reminding me of Honegger, from whom the only thing I know and love is the Pacific 231. Aaron Copeland I've never heard of, I have to investigate  The same with the barroque pieces.

Thank you once again.
Gustav


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## Gustavgraves

ptr said:


> You've gotten many good suggestions on expanding, for me, I think starting with the "circle" around Shostakovich could be a good idea! Here a few of the more prominent names (with links to wiki-pages)


Thank you! Never heard any of those names. I'm going to listen to some pieces and then I'll give you some feedback.


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## ChrisDevonshireEllis

There's no need to mess with Schostakovich. And anyway, he wrote them as complete entities, not as body parts. 
To answer, albeit perhaps showing my age, when "Dark Side of the Moon" came out I liked "Time" and "Money" the best. Now I prefer "The Great Gig In the Sky" and "Brain Damage". Totally different I know, but everyone here knows those songs. The same with Dmitri. The more you hear, the more it says. Especially as you progress through life, just as he and we all do. 
Has anyone analysed Linkin Parks "In The End"? A contemporary rock classic (and a cool vid, watch on YouTube). It owes more to contemporary classical structures that song than it does to the blues, which has dominated pop for the past 50 years. Contemporary classicism is having more of an impact on today's pop then is generally realized, and it is absorbing classical structures now rather than the traditional blues based rhythms. A thesis there if anyone wants one, buy me a beer. 

There is a direct link from and to Shostakovich and Stravinsky to Linkin Park. Listen.


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