# LvB Symphony Cycles: Quick and Dirty Tempo Evaluation



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I realize this is probably not the most reliable method, hence the title "Quick and Dirty," but

A) 
If the Beethoven symphony cycle fits on 5 CDs and the symphonies are in order,
Disk 1: Symphony 1 & 2
Disk 2: Symphony 3 & 4
Disk 3: Symphony 5 & 6
Disk 4: Symphony 7 & 8
Disk 5: Symphony 9
Then one can assume the tempo is generally fast. This is exactly how Zinman's fast-tempo cycle is packaged.

B)
If the symphony cycle fits on 5 CDs and the symphonies are not in order,
Then we can assume the tempo is a bit slower because they could not fit them in consecutive order.

C)
If the symphony cycle requires 6 CDs and one disk is not all overtures,
Then we can assume the cycle has slow tempos.

All this assumes the recording company desires to use the least number of disks to convey the symphony cycle and only adds overtures to fill out disks. (Frankly having a stray overture stuck in here and there to fill out symphony disks is annoying to me and I am pleased Zinman's cycle does not do that even though there is about 20 minutes of unused space on a couple of the disks.)

The other problem is whether or not the conductor does all the repeats will affect this pattern of disk filling.

So what do you think? Does this method have merit for a Quick and Dirty initial assessment of tempos? If I had the time (maybe later) I would look up many cycles online and see how the disks are arranged then categorize them. Then we could see how well this method stacks up.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I just looked at 20 cycles on Amazon. Here they are with the order of the symphonies. It looks like only the fast-tempo HIPsters (*A*) have the 5 disk sets with the symphonies in consecutive order. When it gets to the 6 disk sets (*C*)they go back to consecutive order (presumably because they can with the extra disk), and it appears they are the slower tempo cycles, such as Walter. But the mid tempo group (*B*)has a variety of orders for the symphonies, with the most common being only the first two disks out of order (1/3, 2/4), which suggests (to me) that these could be a subset that are slightly faster than the others among the mid tempo group (*B*). Ferencsik gets the prize for the weirdest order because some disks have the symphonies in reverse numerical order (eg. 6/2, 5/4)

*A) 5 CDs and in consecutive order (1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8, 9)*
Gardiner
Chailly
Mackerras
Zinman
Hanover Band

*B) 5 CDs not in consecutive order*
Blomstedt Leipzig 1/3, 2/4, 5/6, 7/8, 9
Karajan 1963 1/3, 2/4, 5/6, 7/8, 9
Muti Philidelphia 1/3, 2/4, 5/6, 7/8, 9
Bernstein Vienna 1/3, 2/4, 5/6, 7/8, 9
Bernstein NYPO 1/3, 2/7, 4/5, 6/8, 9
Szell Cleveland 1/6, 3/8, 4/7, 2/5, 9
Wand 1/6, 2/7, 3/8, 4/5, 9
Rattle 1/3, 2/5, 4/6, 7/8, 9
Mehuhin 1/3, 5/7, 2/6, 4/8, 9
Klemperer 1/3, 2/7, 4/8, 5/6, 9
Furtwangler 1/3, 2/4, 5/7, 6/8, 9
Ferencsik 1/7, 6/2, 3/8, 5/4, 9

*c) 6 CDs*
Barenboim Berlin 1/2, 3, 4/5, 6, 7/8, 9
Walter 1/2, 3, 4/5, 6, 7/8, 9
Bohm 1/2, 3, 4/5, 6, 7/8, 9

Note: I chose to ignore the filler overtures in this listing.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

I will be quite honest and say the only cycles I have are ones that cost me zilch preferring instead to go by reviews and only purchase the CD that receives high praise from the reviewers. Unadventurous of me maybe, but why waste money on ordinary performances.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Dan Ante said:


> I will be quite honest and say the only cycles I have are ones that cost me zilch preferring instead to go by reviews and only purchase the CD that receives high praise from the reviewers. Unadventurous of me maybe, but why waste money on ordinary performances.


That's a good approach (if you can trust the reviewers) but wasn't the point of this thread. The main reason people buy multiple symphony cycles is to find the one they like the most and only your ears will reveal that. But if you like your Beethoven slower, or faster, the approach above is a way to weed out from further consideration cycles that aren't to your particular desires, tempo-wise.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

It's an interesting concept, but complicated by whether the conductor respects repeats as you mentioned, which might throw the whole scheme out the window. This will require some thought... My Haitink LSO set goes:

Disc 1: 3, Leonore
Disc 2: 4,8
Disc 3: 5,1
Disc 4: 6,2
Disc 5: 7,Triple concerto
Disc 6: 9
I think the tempos are pretty middle of the range, but what do I know?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Antiquarian said:


> It's an interesting concept, but complicated by whether the conductor respects repeats, which might throw the whole scheme out the window.


Amen to this.:tiphat:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is another confounding factor. I see two different sets of Toscanini's NBC cycle:

1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8, 9 (no overtures)

and 1/3, 2/4, 5/6, 7/8, 9 (1-2 overtures per disk, Choral Fantasia with the Ninth)

So perhaps some companies will rearrange the symphonies in order to pack in as many overtures etc. as they can to make it look like a better deal? But all this suggests Toscanini had fast tempos or cut all the repeats.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Also, re-issues of the same recordings, especially from the earlier days of CDs, may be re-ordered to take advantage of the increased capacities of CDs that took place after their introduction. CDs now can hold up to about 80 minutes. I believe the initial capacity was about 74 minutes -- somebody should check me on this!


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Also, re-issues of the same recordings, especially from the earlier days of CDs, may be re-ordered to take advantage of the increased capacities of CDs that took place after their introduction. CDs now can hold up to about 80 minutes. I believe the initial capacity was about 74 minutes -- somebody should check me on this!


Yep the blanks I use are 700MB = 80 min, a bit of an advance compared to the old 78s @ aboyt 3 min per side.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Florestan said:


> I just looked at 20 cycles on Amazon. Here they are with the order of the symphonies. It looks like only the fast-tempo HIPsters (*A*) have the 5 disk sets with the symphonies in consecutive order. When it gets to the 6 disk sets (*C*)they go back to consecutive order (presumably because they can with the extra disk), and it appears they are the slower tempo cycles, such as Walter. But the mid tempo group (*B*)has a variety of orders for the symphonies, with the most common being only the first two disks out of order (1/3, 2/4), which suggests (to me) that these could be a subset that are slightly faster than the others among the mid tempo group (*B*). Ferencsik gets the prize for the weirdest order because some disks have the symphonies in reverse numerical order (eg. 6/2, 5/4)
> 
> *A) 5 CDs and in consecutive order (1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8, 9)*
> Gardiner
> ...


Gosh - you need to get out more. :lol:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Delicious Manager said:


> Gosh - you need to get out more. :lol:


I know Floresrtan can speak for himself, but he likes to talk about that kind of stuff.
Let him be.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Pugg said:


> I know Floresrtan can speak for himself, but he likes to talk about that kind of stuff.
> Let him be.


It's OK - I'm a bit that way inclined myself.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

So it looks like we can to a reasonable degree pin down the tail ends of the fast tempos sets and the slow pokes, but a huge chunk from the middle of the bell curve is all mixed together in the middle category and I am afraid that trying to sort out the different tempos in that category is a much more difficult process.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

I have a spreadsheet of track times for a bunch of different recordings for all of Beethoven's Symphonies. I have the last column add the track times so I know how long the entire performance is, but depending on whether or not they take the repeats changes things greatly. 

Prime example is in the 1st movement of the Eroica symphony where a large number of people do not take the repeat. 

For example: 
Leibowitz takes 12:53
Kletzki takes 14:18
Bohm takes 14:56
Blomstedt takes 15:03
Chailly takes 15:11

Now you would think everyone flies by Chailly who takes 15:11 but in fact Chailly is the fastest on record and is the only one in the group who takes the repeat.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

realdealblues said:


> I have a spreadsheet of track times for a bunch of different recordings for all of Beethoven's Symphonies. I have the last column add the track times so I know how long the entire performance is, but depending on whether or not they take the repeats changes things greatly.
> 
> Prime example is in the 1st movement of the Eroica symphony where a large number of people do not take the repeat.
> 
> ...


Add Zinman alongside Chailly as fast but taking the repeat, so Zinman first movement of the Eroica clocks in at 15:35.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Florestan said:


> Add Zinman alongside Chailly as fast but taking the repeat, so Zinman first movement of the Eroica clocks in at 15:35.


Yeah, I have Zinman in there as well. Just giving a few examples. I have around 40 Cycles in my spreadsheet.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

And I thought I was out there having obtained at least 25 cycles in a few decades. And to think for my first 20 some years I only had a Krips cycle on vinyl and thought that there couldn't be better Beethoven than that. I listened to a Karajan ninth on a radio broadcast once and never knew Beethoven could sound even better! Damn that NPR!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Florestan said:


> Here is another confounding factor. I see two different sets of Toscanini's NBC cycle:
> 
> 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8, 9 (no overtures)
> 
> and 1/3, 2/4, 5/6, 7/8, 9 (1-2 overtures per disk, Choral Fantasia with the Ninth)


Seems the first set above (in consecutive order) is the 1949-53 recordings (which I just ordered). The second set is probably the 1939.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Love the Toscanini set that is in consecutive order (half way through first listen). Total time is same as Zinman to within a minute and total file size for the whole set (no filler pieces) is the same to within one MB out of 310 MB. Both great.

From now on if I buy any more Beethoven symphony cycles they will most likely be from the group that is consecutively ordered, that is fast tempo and/or HIP.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Sorry but Norrigton does not follow you ordering. His are 1/3, 2/8, 4/7, 5/6, and 9.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Sorry but Norrigton does not follow you ordering. His are 1/3, 2/8, 4/7, 5/6, and 9.


There will be some exceptions.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Florestan said:


> There will be some exceptions.


I think the companies just put them in the order they want. I have seen them split a symphony on 2 discs that if they just slightly changed the order could have got it on one.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> I think the companies just put them in the order they want. I have seen them split a symphony on 2 discs that if they just slightly changed the order could have got it on one.


Sometimes no rhyme or reason to it. Other times they stuff in some overtures, which I find annoying.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Florestan said:


> Sometimes no rhyme or reason to it. Other times they stuff in some overtures, which I find annoying.


I think they do it so you will go and get the other music that the overture is part of.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Sometimes no rhyme or reason to it. Other times they stuff in some overtures, which I find annoying.


That's why the Royal ConcertGebouw is still expensive, 6 disc and only one overture on disc 5 added.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

It doesn't always follow tbh. I have a fair few Beethoven cycles that are as follows:

Weller 1/3 2/5 4/7 9
Edlinger 5/2 3/8 6/1 9
Pletnev 1/4. 2/3 5/7. 6/8. 9
Various (Brilliant Classics old set). 1/6. 2/4. 3/8. 5/7. 9 
Asahina. 1/4. 2. 3 5/8 6 +ove. 7. 9
Kletzki 1/2. 3+ove. 4 /5 6+ove. 7/8. 9. 
Leinsdorf. 1/7. 2/6. 3/8. 4/5. 9
Vanska. 1/6. 2/4.7. 3/8. 4/5. 9
Schmidt Isserstedt. 1/3. 2/4. 5/6. 7/8. 9

Timings for these are right across the spectrum from slowing to fast. I think just depends on how the record company arranges it. The only exception here is Asahina as it is spread over 7 discs with one disc of an interview. It's not incredibly slow so Christ knows why they didn't double up on a few symphonies.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I believe Klemperer was working on a 32 disc Beethoven cycle when he died. 6 of those were just the 9th symphony. Scratchy Roger will probably have the whole lot on one disc when he knocks out another cycle. Lol


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