# Classical Music in Films



## JenWo

Many films use classical music as their score, Apocalypse Now, The Social Network, Clockwork Orange or 2001... Disney's Fantasia produces a whole 'music video' for classical pieces if you wish...

Do you guys have a problem with filmmakers taking classical pieces and arranging them into a new context? Or do you think it holds the chance to reach a broader audience and get them to recognize it?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

JenWo said:


> Or do you think it holds the chance to reach a broader audience and get them to recognize it?


Yep. I like that.


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## Manxfeeder

It's a double-edged sword. Barber's Adagio has been transformed from the middle movement of a string quartet into a symbol for the passing of Rosevelt and JFK, then introduced to a new generation through Platoon as a symbol of mourning for that generation. On the other hand, Bugs Bunny has ruined the Hungarian Dances forever. 

So it depends if the inclusion ennobles the piece or trivializes it.


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## haydnfan

JenWo said:


> Do you guys have a problem with filmmakers taking classical pieces and arranging them into a new context? Or do you think it holds the chance to reach a broader audience and get them to recognize it?


I do actually. Even if it's great music to listen to, film scores need to be contextual, they serve a purpose in each scene. And simply inserting part of a classical work in it's place is not as strong as having a film composer write a score to serve the film scene by scene. And also with a score it's easier to have leitmotif that subconsciously cue the audience emotionally and intellectually as to what to expect.


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## Xaltotun

It is usually certainly better to compose a new score for a new film, but on the other hand, perhaps the strongest musical moment I have ever witnessed in a film is in Bresson's "A Man Escaped", where just a tiny excerpt from Mozart's Mass in C Minor is used in a way that's nothing sort of genious.


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## JenWo

Manxfeeder said:


> So it depends if the inclusion ennobles the piece or trivializes it.


But who decides that? Many people probably only know the Hungarian Dance because of Bugs Bunny. The question is: Do they need to know it's Brahms or is it enough that they have heard the piece and can enjoy it in one way or the other.


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## Delicious Manager

JenWo said:


> Do you guys have a problem with filmmakers taking classical pieces and arranging them into a new context? Or do you think it holds the chance to reach a broader audience and get them to recognize it?


Trouble is, most people have no idea they're listening to classical music and so they still think they don't like it.


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## Ralfy

Check out some of Terence Malick's films.


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## Manxfeeder

JenWo said:


> But who decides that? Many people probably only know the Hungarian Dance because of Bugs Bunny. The question is: Do they need to know it's Brahms or is it enough that they have heard the piece and can enjoy it in one way or the other.


If it leads to enjoyment, I have no problem with it. When it so cheapens the piece that people don't take it seriously, it bothers me.


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## LordBlackudder

what kind of monocle wearing **** would have a problem with it.


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## kv466

i think classical in movies is something that should be very much embraced


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## regressivetransphobe

There's this movie called Violent Cop that uses an electronic version of Satie's Gnossiene no. 1 as its main theme. The film's about a cop that uses violence. Check it out.


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## Chrythes

Bach's Brandenburg concerto 1046 (if i'm not mistaken) is played during the first party scene in Die Hard. 
Beethoven 135 SQ first movements first notes are played in Godard's 2 or 3 Things I Know About Her.


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## CynusAlisa

Hey Friends I like to listen classical music most..........I like that films also in which we can listen Classical type of music.........


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## kv466

Some directors really know how to use it and place it in such sections of the film that one has very little choice but to sit there and soak it up. Others don't possess such skills and that is when you may as well have used anything.


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## clavichorder

Movies giving a piece new life, I think that if done well its a great thing.


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## Festat

The Gymnopédies in Mario Peixoto's _Limite_. You have the impression music and movie were made for each other, even though it was added years after the film's premiere.


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## Lunasong

I'm currently reading Lawrence Kramer's _Why Classical Music Still Matters_ in which he cites the use of classical music in four films; none of which I've seen, but have added to my queue.

_Impromptu_ (1991) historical romance, relationship between Chopin and George Sand. Beethoven Sym #6, Chopin _Ballade #1 in G Minor_.
_Paradise Road_ (1997) historical drama, women in a Japanese prison camp recreate musical scores. Dvorak Sym #9, Ravel _Bolero_.
_Brief Encounter_ (1946) romantic melodrama, doomed illicit romance in post-war England. Rachmaninoff _Piano Concerto #2_
_People Will Talk_ (1951) romantic comedy, opposites attract, happiness follows. Brahms _Academic Festival overture_, Wagner "Prize Song" from _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_


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## Festat

_Brief encounter_ is the most beautiful movie I've ever seen.


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## robert

Is this the movie with Trevor Howard?


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## Festat

Yup, and Celia Johnson. Directed by Devid Lean.


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## Lunasong

_Brief Encounter_ was indeed a good movie. I appreciated the irony of the cello player in the train station ensemble also being the organist at the movie theater...oh, to live in a day when live music was everywhere! The final scene in the train station was a tearjerker.
_People Will Talk_ was a bit of fluff. The plot didn't make much sense, motivation-wise. I liked the train set scene...


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## TrazomGangflow

It wasn't in a movie but I saw a comercial where a local supermarket chain used (or disgraced if you will) one of Mozart's overtures by advertising fresh produce. SICKENING!!!


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## Taneyev

On a very stupid film called "They shall have music", there's a complete nearly 40' recital live by Heifetz, absolutely fantastic. And you have another very stupid film "Rhapsody", with E.Taylor (exceptionally beautiful and awful actress) and Vittorio Gassman doing (almost perfectly) a violinist, where you have almost complete Tchaikovsky's v.c.played by Rabin.


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## Festat

Has _Humoresque_ been mentioned? With Joan Crawford and John Garfield as a skilled violinist.


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## Eviticus

Stanley Kubric loved his classical music in films; notably in 2001 a space odessey (introducing new audiences to Richard Strauss), clockwork orange (interesting use of Beethoven and Elgar) and The Shining (Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique which is also the ominous theme used to depict the bad guy in 'Sleeping with the enemy'). I like old classic horror movies such as the Boris Karloff Frankenstein and Bela Legosi's Dracula but the opening theme is the terrible misuse of Swan Lake! I suppose it's quite a mystical theme.

Personally, i prefer original composers in films such as Williams, Horner, Zimmer and Doyle.


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## Jeremy Marchant

JenWo said:


> Do you guys have a problem with filmmakers taking classical pieces and arranging them into a new context? Or do you think it holds the chance to reach a broader audience and get them to recognize it?


Yes, I most emphatically do have a problem with filmmakers, tv producers and, worst of all, ad agencies prostituting classical music through laziness, greed and philistinism, and usually all three. Apart from denying paid work to many talented, living composers and performers, it is an insult to the composer (who is rarely credited), the performers (who are rarely credited), everyone who already knows the music and doesn't want to hear it in the context of a baked bean commercial, and it is an insult to everyone hearing it for the first time who will now invariably associate it with the bastardised version in which it is presented and the inappropriate context and trivial content which accompany it.

As for Kubrick, it is well known that Ligeti emphatically did not want his music used in 2001, so Kubrick took it anyway in a "f*** you" gesture typical of the prevailing approach.


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## THX1965

To me the most recent example for a really great use of classical music in a movie is THE KING'S SPEECH. It wasn't the first time that the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 7th symphony was used against picture - but its integration into the King's big radio address at the end of the movie was simply breathtaking. As the music slowly builds into a full orchestral rendition of the main theme, so does the king's confidence with his address of the nation.

It is of course ironic that the movie portrays England at war against Germany - and the music draws most of its emotional musical power from its use of pieces by Beethoven and Mozart (not German, I know, but still - not british).

Markus


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## moody

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Yes, I most emphatically do have a problem with filmmakers, tv producers and, worst of all, ad agencies prostituting classical music through laziness, greed and philistinism, and usually all three. Apart from denying paid work to many talented, living composers and performers, it is an insult to the composer (who is rarely credited), the performers (who are rarely credited), everyone who already knows the music and doesn't want to hear it in the context of a baked bean commercial, and it is an insult to everyone hearing it for the first time who will now invariably associate it with the bastardised version in which it is presented and the inappropriate context and trivial content which accompany it.
> 
> As for Kubrick, it is well known that Ligeti emphatically did not want his music used in 2001, so Kubrick took it anyway in a "f*** you" gesture typical of the prevailing approach.


I hope Richard Strauss wasn't p.......off as well ! I object much more to film music being played on radio stations----in our case the ghastly Classic FM----as classical music. There are exceptions such as Bliss, Vaughan Williams and Prokofiev.


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## Eviticus

moody said:


> I hope Richard Strauss wasn't p.......off as well ! I object much more to film music being played on radio stations----in our case the ghastly Classic FM----as classical music. There are exceptions such as Bliss, Vaughan Williams and Prokofiev.


On the contrary - i think there should be more. Beautiful film music is grossly overlooked! I don't really think classic FM or radio 3 should be limited to music predominantly based around western sonata forms when there is equally beautiful orchestral music (if not better in many cases) written for the big screen.

I'd rather listen to a brilliant piece by say John Williams than a piece by many 20th century classical composers.


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## moody

Really? Beautiful film music is very nice I'm sure but it's not classical music also I have mentioned some exceptions . I'm sure there are more, fairly recently I had to sit at a friend's house and have the score for "Gladiator" played at me .Why when Respighi did it much better? I have never been to a film where I have had the urge to obtain the recording except the Joplin music from "The Sting". One other name that I consider acceptable is Korngold .


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## Eviticus

moody said:


> Really? Beautiful film music is very nice I'm sure but it's not classical music also I have mentioned some exceptions . I'm sure there are more, fairly recently I had to sit at a friend's house and have the score for "Gladiator" played at me .Why when Respighi did it much better? I have never been to a film where I have had the urge to obtain the recording except the Joplin music from "The Sting". One other name that I consider acceptable is Korngold .


Good film music is effectively just the same as good programme music and so i don't really see the huge difference except it being more modern. Perhaps you could enlighten me more?

Sure much of it has inspiration in classical music but then every piece of music is inspired by something else. I really don't think modern audiences care too much about classical form either as music has evolved to the point most don't have to understand its structure to love it. Only a classical purist would want to exclude such music from radio stations but then purists have never helped with musical progression.


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## moody

I do not see concert after concert of film music throughout the cities of the world. The reason for that , with a number of honourable exceptions, is that film music is there to do a job ie to back up the action on the screen. I do not know how old you are but in the film world in the 40's, 50's and 60's the sound tracks were awash with lush scores, that is fairly rare now so somebody somewhere must have decided that it wasn't so important. Your point that music has evolved to the stage where audiences don't have to understand its structure to love it, is merely another example of dumbing down. C ows in a field don't spend much time contemplating evolution either. Until this thread I never even considered the background music as important, it consisted of frightening music in horror films and big country music in westerns--I don't consider it, I am not interested in it particularly . I have 7000 recordings and apart from Alexander Nevsky and Things To Come and one or two more that's it. This is boring me as a subject and I would only say that you go ahead and dream about the progression of music but consider this, the radio station in the UK that gives a lot of time to this type of stuff has a top hundred recordings voted for by the audience. Each year the top of the chart consists of Rodrigo guitar concertos, Rachmaninoffs 2nd, The Nutcracker, Grieg's piano concerto, both Chopin's, Beethoven's 5th, Saint-Saens' organ symphony and Tchaikovsky's violin concerto etc.etc. Now perhaps you can enlighten me as to why they aren't voting for more progressive music--perhaps they are all purists, that must be the answer !


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## Philip

THX1965 said:


> To me the most recent example for a really great use of classical music in a movie is THE KING'S SPEECH. It wasn't the first time that the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 7th symphony was used against picture - but its integration into the King's big radio address at the end of the movie was simply breathtaking. As the music slowly builds into a full orchestral rendition of the main theme, so does the king's confidence with his address of the nation.
> 
> It is of course ironic that the movie portrays England at war against Germany - and the music draws most of its emotional musical power from its use of pieces by Beethoven and Mozart (not German, I know, but still - not british).
> 
> Markus


I hate myself for not having seen that one yet (The king's speech), but i distinctly remember hearing Beethoven's seventh after the rape scene in Irréversible, incredible drama


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## Guest

Sorry to say this, but neither Beethoven nor Mozart can save "The King's Speech" from being anything more than a total embarrassment and a throw-back to the days of "the Empire", complete with ice-maiden leading actress (name totally forgettable) and the usual suspects in British cinema, with regulation screenwriting hacks. It's just AWFUL. Geoffrey Rush was the only real person in it. As for Colin Firth - better if I don't comment on his role straight from the shelves of "The Laurence Olivier Reject Shop"!!


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## Eviticus

moody said:


> I do not see concert after concert of film music throughout the cities of the world.


Moody - methinks you do not look or see what you want to see. These concerts exist. Only recently there was a whole host of concerts in memory of John Barry which had a large amount of exposure by the BBC.



moody said:


> ...film music is there to do a job ie to back up the action on the screen. I do not know how old you are but in the film world in the 40's, 50's and 60's the sound tracks were awash with lush scores, that is fairly rare now so somebody somewhere must have decided that it wasn't so important.


Ballet music has a job to back up the action or feeling in the scenes. Programmatic music in general outlines various scenes. These as well as a good movie score can be played independently without the visuals and that's what really makes a good movie score.



moody said:


> Your point that music has evolved to the stage where audiences don't have to understand its structure to love it, is merely another example of dumbing down.


Millions of people now and throughout history have not been able to play an instrument or understood any basic principles in music theory (many of which listen to classic FM) but it has not stopped them appreciating good music. Should they have to learn about music theory to appreciate great pieces? No. Sure you can appreciate some aspects of music more when understanding the theory but you could actually love a piece even its filled with structural flaws. For example; I love Tchaikovsky who struggled with western forms but i still adore the man's music. I appreciate the innovations and complexity of Wagner but i sure as hell don't want to listen to him. I can appreciate the master of form in Bach but he bores me to death and so on etc etc.



moody said:


> C ows in a field don't spend much time contemplating evolution either.


You lost me here. I don't understand what you are trying to say.



moody said:


> Until this thread I never even considered the background music as important, it consisted of frightening music in horror films and big country music in westerns--I don't consider it, I am not interested in it particularly .


Moody have you actually watched a film since the Sting was released in 73? The likes of Morricone started taking film scores to a new level in the mid 60's wherby themes were no longer just unmemorable background music but engraved in the public conciousness. Williams destroyed that tradition with a series of scores that spanned from Jaws to Empire of the Sun and during that period more and more film composers have done scores that not only have sold very well (note James Horners Titanic for a start) but are much loved outside the films. Your lack of interest seems to show you niaivity here.



moody said:


> but consider this, the radio station in the UK that gives a lot of time to this type of stuff has a top hundred recordings voted for by the audience. Each year the top of the chart consists of Rodrigo guitar concertos, Rachmaninoffs 2nd, The Nutcracker, Grieg's piano concerto, both Chopin's, Beethoven's 5th, Saint-Saens' organ symphony and Tchaikovsky's violin concerto etc.etc. Now perhaps you can enlighten me as to why they aren't voting for more progressive music--perhaps they are all purists, that must be the answer !


Film scores are now increasingly starting to appear in this list (note Lord of the Rings now appears at 50) and Barbers adagio for strings which although was not film music was popularized in many peoples minds by the film Platoon (now appears at 14). This is a fanciful list for people who listen to classic FM where exposure to film scores are minimal so that combined with the fact that film scores have only been easily available for 20 years (compared to classical recordings that were available on gramophone) also says alot.


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## Guest

Moody obviously isn't interested in film music so no amount of convincing will be enough. I think Moody probably only knows scores from comparatively recent cinema and, apart from Howard Shore, John Williams and a few others, these haven't got much going for them. But when you look at the cinema of the past, since the invention of sound on film, there's an astonishing level of creativity and genius in the writing for film from (mostly) emigre composers who were classically trained and fled Europe around the time of WW2. Korngold has written independent chamber and orchestral music and an opera. (Yes, some have said "it's more Korn than Gold", but there it is). What about Bernstein's elegantly simple theme for "To Kill a Mockingbird". I could go on, but I won't.


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## moody

EVITICUS.
My first post said that I objected to film music being played on radio stations as classical music. I did not say that the stations should limit it or ban it--that's their business. I note that you say that film music is grossly overlooked, if it was in demand it would be played more. You also said that modern audiences don't care too much about classical form and you mention structure,where did that come from? I have no training in music and don't even know what the official description of these terms would be. I said that I did not see concert after concert of film music and you reply that they exist. I'm sure that you are right, but then I didn't deny they did--just very few.It also seems that Bach bores you, should I now make every effort to change your mind? No,because I presume that you've tried it and come to that decision. Your question asking whether I've seen a film since " The Sting" and your comment on my niavity is disrespectful and we are asked to avoid that on these forums. Countenance Anglaise says that I'm not interested in film music and I am glad that at least HE can see that. Also I have mentioned that there are exceptions but note that they are mostly by established "serious" composers.. I have already mentioned that I have a vast library of recordings and was also fortunate that in my jobs I was able to attend concerts all over the world. I am 74 years old and in failing health so my cinema and concert going days are finished. But do you not think that I would have been attracted to more film music in that time if it was going to happen? I have checked Classic FM's top 100 and it consists of the usual suspects ,( film title !), as I thought. Film music does not appear until no. 68 Morricone " The Mission ", no.85 Einaudi, " Le Onde" and no.92, Williams " Schindlers List ". I would suggest that perhaps you should not patronise people but talk to those with similar interests. I know that you have appeared on the "Lesser Known Mozart " thread, there's a chap there who says that the lesser known Mozart is the better. Now you and I know that millions of people throughout the world love him---but what good will that do. Incidentally I am also bored by Bach and many times I've been told how wrong I am.


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## Guest

Moody, there's no way that somebody can be "wrong" saying that some music bores them - how can something subjective like a personal preference be 'wrong', unless deviant behaviour in some way? Many people are bored by Bach. Andras Schiff refers to him as "the old Testament in music" and I think this is a wonderful way of putting the composer. He's not an 'easy' composer - especially his Kantaten, with endless melismas and repetitive arias and with, often, thin musical accompaniment.


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## Eviticus

Dear Mister Moody,
I apologise if i came across disrespectful towards you, i was merely trying to break down your rationale or arguments against film and counter them. I don't believe at any point i tried to convert you or force it upon you. But i tried to explain there are modern gems out there that exist (and there's demand for) which are seen as more than just background music. I do feel in a way that film music is considered by many to be a separate genre from general classical/orchestral music. Some of my friends love film scores but from when people say 'you like classical...' they get offended. Perhaps there still is a stigma or stereotype for a classical music listener these days. I personally love some modern film music because of the size of the orchestra, the stereo sound, the smooth and subtle transitions and modern themes that just would never have appeared in the classical or romantic period. Obviously it does irritate me somewhat when people just dismiss it as sub par orchestral music without giving a logical rationale.


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## moody

I appreciate your reply--let's start over in a friendly manner. In any case I think we've about thrashed this to death.


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## Guest

Can I just make the point that people who write huge amounts on a topic in one hit - I don't read these, as they are too long. Try cutting them down to more manageable chunks and more people will read what has been written.


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## GrosseFugue

I don't have any problems with Classical Music in films. _If_ done well and without cliches'.

Like a bad use of it is equating the music with villiany. Like, _of course_, the psycho is gonna be a big Classical Music fan. From Nazi generals to Hannibal Lecter. Please, no!

The best recent use of CM in a movie I've seen was in Shutter Island. Really enhanced the creepy atmosphere and tension. Makes me want to seek out the soundtrack actually. Mahler (who becomes a musical stand-in for Holocaust victims), Penderecki, Ingram Marshall, a bunch of modern composers.

I think one of the reasons why people might not seek out CM, despite enjoying it in a movie is because they can't hear it without thinking about the film. Pop music is exempt from this problem, because most people have heard a popular song before in some other context. Like I doubt the use of "Bad to the Bone" in Terminator 2 ruined that song for rock-lovers or the use of "Start Me Up" for Microsoft ads. But you see Beethoven's Eroica used for a cheese commercial and it's, well, cheesy.

I can listen to Beethoven's 9th without thinking out about Clockwork Orange, because I know that work on its own. But that's not the case for most people.

BTW, another really cool use of CM in a film was in 70's classic, The Mechanic, starring Charles Bronson as a troubled hitman. He plays the GROSSE FUGUE while studying the files of his marks! :lol:


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## Sieglinde

A great use of classical music occurred in BBC Sherlock's season finale: Moriarty breaks into the museum to put on the crown jewels... to Rossini's La gazza ladra overture. It's FABULOUS. Now I can't stop listening to this.


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## gr8gunz

Some films actually demand classical music from the masters.

Who, other than Mozart, should write the score for Amadeus??

Films about composers are great for that reason. The score is already written 
by some of the worlds greatest composers.


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## TheComposer

Black swan totally ruined the score of the original swan lake!


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## Delicious Manager

TheComposer said:


> Black swan totally ruined the score of the original swan lake!


That 'score' was little more than just lazy plagiarism!


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## BlackDahlia

Richard Wagner's *"Tristan und Isolde: Prelude"* was in the soundtrack for an end-of-the-world movie called Melancholia.

I would prob never given it a second listen had I not heard it within the context of that film.


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## Fortinbras Armstrong

My favorite example of classical music used in film is the ending of John Boorman's _Excalibur_ -- not one of my favorite films, BTW -- to Siegfried's funeral music from _Götterdämmerung_






I was not as happy with his use of O Fortuna earlier in the movie.


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## Headphone Hermit

moody said:


> Really? Beautiful film music is very nice I'm sure but it's not classical music also I have mentioned some exceptions . I'm sure there are more, fairly recently I had to sit at a friend's house and have the score for "Gladiator" played at me .Why when Respighi did it much better? I have never been to a film where I have had the urge to obtain the recording except the Joplin music from "The Sting". One other name that I consider acceptable is Korngold .


Not even Alexander Nevsky? Surely one of the most wonderful collaborations between film maker and composer?


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## Headphone Hermit

Jeremy Marchant said:


> it is an insult to everyone hearing it for the first time who will now invariably associate it with the bastardised version in which it is presented and the inappropriate context and trivial content which accompany it.


I understand your point and even have _some_ sympathy with it, but in 1983 I was one of those who had a dormant (no - unknown) interest in classical music awakened via music used in commercials. Prokofiev's Dance of the Nights was used in an advert for perfume and I asked a work colleague who knew about these things to tell me what it was .... and then went and bought an LP. A friend of a friend invited me round after the pub and played me heaps of music from adverts .... and that encouraged me to go exploring the world of recorded music and that was the start to what has become a deep and lasting interest that isn't spoilt in any way by _Casta Diva_ being used to sell perfume, Bach to sell Hamlet cigars etc etc


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## FilmMusic

reminds me of how I feel when I hear a pop song from my youth now being used to sell car tires. You get mad because you have built up memories and emotional associations with the song. It feels like the ad belittles your experience. However if you are new to the song, then the ad doesn't have the attached emotion and it may expose you to something new that you may wish to pursue further.

Some things are just so universally part of the culture now that it is hard to get angry when they're grafted onto some ad concept. Vivaldi's 1st Mvt Spring from Four Seasons is so overused as soundtrack that hearing it in an ad has little effect.


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## Lucrezia

When I was watching _ Shutter Island_ in some particular moment I suddenly realised that the soundtrack music is really adding to the tension in the screen, giving you shivers like a creeping beast in the jungle that you cannot see but can clearly feel. I looked it up and it turned out it was _Mahler's Quarter for piano and strings in A minor._
Thumbs up to the director for the choice of music!


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## clara s

What I have to say is that the Shostakovich Suite Waltz no 2
was the perfect classical piece for "eyes wide shut" of Kubrick


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## hpowders

What about Bartok's Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste in "The Shining". Leave the light on.


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## OldFashionedGirl

Classical music applied in a suitable manner can enhance the film.
Here's in my opinion two cases of films enhance by classical music.
The adagietto from Mahler's 5 symphony appers in almost all the Visconti's movie Death in Venice. I loved it. The film would not be the same without it.




Prokofiev wrote the score for the Eisenstein movie Alexander Nevski. Here's the more famous scene of the movie, the battle on ice.




And we can forget the classical music in Kubrick movies like clara s and hpowders commented above.


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## mirepoix

At the weekend we watched the Michael Hanake film 'La pianiste'. I found it worth viewing if only for the fact it introduced me to Schubert's Winterreise.


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