# Classical Music Will Never Die



## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

In 1978, Neil Young warbled: 

“My my, hey hey
Rock and roll is here to stay”

Yet less than 20 years later, in the aftermath of Grunge’s demise, R’n’R was stone dead.

By complete contrast, a few hours ago, I roused myself from an idling slumber to see Francis Xavier Roth’s conduct the LSO in a coruscating performance of Richard Strauss’ Tod & Till, alongside Francisco Coll’s Violin Concerto at the Barbican. The latter, contemporary work more than held its own against the former tone poem masterpieces of the fin de siecle.

To be able to applaud such a wonderful young conductor (Roth), composer (Coll) and violinist (kopatchinskaja), who stood a mere few feet away from me, made me all the more convinced that whatever about smelly, crusty hippies like Neil Young, CLASSICAL MUSIC WILL NEVER DIE!!!


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

I wholeheartedly agree with you; Classical music has been around for centuries and I don't see it ever being silenced. There are so many wonderful composers alike with excellent performers on various instruments. 

I'm a professional organist and I have tens of thousands of pieces for that instrument at my disposal either in written publishes form are in PDF that are in the public domain. 

Classical is here to stay, imho. 

Kh


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## KevinJS (Sep 24, 2021)

Also agree. I dabble in other genres but always come back to my classical starting point. Hopefully, any observation about Young won't send the thread into a negative spin. I'll just mention that I believe Young and music to be two separate subjects.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Yet less than 20 years later, in the aftermath of Grunge's demise, R'n'R was stone dead.


Oh, I wouldn't say "stone dead." Popular music trends come & go (and come again...) and other genres may be ascendant right now but R&R hasn't exactly disappeared.

Classical OTOH hasn't been more than 10% of the market since 1760 and so it hasn't got any more down to go.


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## That Guy Mick (May 31, 2020)

Its good to see a spirited cry for the genre as the statisticians tell us of its diminishment. I support my local Symphony and small performances. Plenty to hear. Let the good times roll!


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

There is no relation between Classical music and Rock & Roll, vis a vis Neil Young. Both genres have produced some great music. There is no rationale of pitting the two genres against each other; nothing to be gained from it.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I agree with SanAntone in that classical and rock music are completely unrelated and have nothing to do with each other. This isn't a competition. Both genres have given me much pleasure and that should be enough.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Ludwig Schon said:


> In 1978, Neil Young warbled:
> 
> "My my, hey hey
> Rock and roll is here to stay"
> ...


I don't recall Young ever stating that CM will die. Can you point me to a source?


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> Oh, I wouldn't say "stone dead." Popular music trends come & go (and come again...) and other genres may be ascendant right now but R&R hasn't exactly disappeared.
> 
> Classical OTOH hasn't been more than 10% of the market since 1760 and so it hasn't got any more down to go.


I didn't say popular, I said rock, which is stone dead.

The best western music produced - outside of classical - in the last 30 years has been rap, techno, house, electronic, grime, drill and low-fi.

Have a gander at this year's Grammy Rock Nominations, and try to remember that Paul McCartney stopped being relevant as a musician more than 50 years ago:

Best Rock Performance:

AC/DC / "Shot in the Dark"
Black Pumas / "Know You Better (Live From Capitol Studio A)"
Chris Cornell / "Nothing Compares 2 U"
Deftones / "Ohms"
Foo Fighters / "Making a Fire"

Best Rock Song:

Weezer / "All My Favorite Songs"
Kings of Leon / "The Bandit"
Mammoth WVH / "Distance"
Paul McCartney / "Find My Way"
Foo Fighters / "Waiting on a War"

Best Rock Album:

AC/DC / Power Up
Black Pumas / Capitol Cuts - Live From Studio A
Chris Cornell / No One Sings Like You Anymore, Vol. 1
Foo Fighters / Medicine at Midnight
Paul McCartney / McCartney III


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## Nawdry (Dec 27, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> There is no relation between Classical music and Rock & Roll, vis a vis Neil Young. Both genres have produced some great music. There is no rationale of pitting the two genres against each other; nothing to be gained from it.


It's important to recognize the crucial ongoing relationship between classical music and the array of "popular" genres, including jazz, R&R, rock (in its many varieties), hip-hop, country, folk, and various other derivatives and variations. Classical music originally sprang from popular culture (particularly by way of religious music), and over the centuries has continued to draw from and be enriched by harmonic and rhythmic innovations and other evolutionary developments in popular music culture. Just as with classical music, popular musical compositions and renditions in their own way have enriched the cultural infrastructure of human civilization.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Nawdry said:


> It's important to recognize the crucial ongoing relationship between classical music and the array of "popular" genres, including jazz, R&R, rock (in its many varieties), hip-hop, country, folk, and various other derivatives and variations. Classical music originally sprang from popular culture (particularly by way of religious music), and over the centuries has continued to draw from and be enriched by harmonic and rhythmic innovations and other evolutionary developments in popular music culture. Just as with classical music, popular musical compositions and renditions in their own way have enriched the cultural infrastructure of human civilization.


Recognizing the relationship between rock and classical is one thing, but the OP's tirades suggest something completely different.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

In fairness, I did find one Yank whose work is worthy both in terms of classical and popular traditions… His name… William Bolcom,. His oeuvre on William Blake includes funk, bluegrass, country, spiritual and jazz…


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Neo Romanza said:


> Recognizing the relationship between rock and classical is one thing, but the OP's tirades suggest something completely different.


I am glad I am not the only one who thought the same .


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Ludwig Schon said:


> In 1978, Neil Young warbled:
> 
> "My my, hey hey
> Rock and roll is here to stay"
> ...


The Beatles have 25 million monthly plays on Spotify;
Rolling Stones have 20 million;
Led Zeppelin have 16 million;
Pink Floyd have 14 million;
The Doors have 9 million;
The Who have 7 million. Meanwhile:
Bach has 7 million;
Beethoven has 6 million;
Mozart has 6 million;

Your argument may be unsound.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

How does one write great 'new' music? Perhaps some of what you'd call pop influence of the time may have inspired various motifs by Bach or Beethoven; perhaps it wasn't all rigorous calculation, but a little bit of swing and groove as well. I know pop can be one good place to start music theory. I was hearing this song in the grocery store earlier, called Right Down the Line, and couldn't help notice how certain notes gave the harmony more of its character than others, namely the most-pronounced top of the triad notes--the thirds and so on, and it explains why one might want to use certain inversions: while the harmonies sound a bit colorful and flavorful, the top notes are always still the pattern of octave, leading tone, leading tone, octave, on repeat. I wonder if any of the greats of their time and style thought, hmm that idea on the street could be catchy for a symphonic theme.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

RogerWaters said:


> The Beatles have 25 million monthly plays on Spotify;
> Rolling Stones have 20 million;
> Led Zeppelin have 16 million;
> Doors have 9 million;
> ...


It's not about what the proles need to get them through the night, to face one more lonely day.

It's about what lives and breathes and evolves, musically. Based on that criteria, Rock is as dead as a Doda bird.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Ludwig Schon said:


> It's not about what the proles need to get them through the night, to face one more lonely day.
> 
> It's about what lives and breathes and evolves, musically. Based on that criteria, Rock is as dead as a Doda bird.


Let me package the rebuttal in a slightly different way, for your obviously keen intellect:

Francisco Coll has 864 monthly listens on Spotify.

Beatles have 25 million monthly listens.

I will leave it up to your no doubt avid readership to judge which genre 'lives and breathes' and which is terminal.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Rock is as dead as a Doda bird.


"Doda" is a Polish singer, real name Dorota Rabczewska. She is not dead.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Ludwig Schon said:


> In 1978, Neil Young warbled:
> 
> "My my, hey hey
> Rock and roll is here to stay"
> ...


That's a clever pun, about Rock being "stone" dead.

Every year, some curmudgeon would declare that Rock would be dead in a couple of years. *The Beatles* were constantly asked dumbazz questions like *"So, what will you do when the bubble bursts?"*

But it wouldn't die - it just kept twisting itself around, morphed like some science fiction story, generating mountains of Rock subgenres along the way.

It's still kicking, in all its different forms, and shows no signs of every going away peacefully, like Grandad in his sleep.

*
The Death of Rock and Roll
Todd Rundgren
Initiation
1975*

_Just the other day I got a call from a friend
"i heard what you been playin' and I think it's a sin
Why can't you make a living like the rest of the boys
Instead of fillin' your head with all that synthesized noise? "
Jackals wait nearby, watching rock and roll die . . .

. . . . and no one dared try to help it . . . . _


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## That Guy Mick (May 31, 2020)

Ludwig Schon said:


> I didn't say popular, I said rock, which is stone dead.
> 
> The best western music produced - outside of classical - in the last 30 years has been rap, techno, house, electronic, grime, drill and low-fi.
> 
> ...


All looks like garbage. Amen, Ludwig! Viva la Classical!!!!


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

And Neil Young was quoting, who was it, Chuck Berry?


Mark Twain said:


> The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I commented on this a couple years ago, but
Country music is the only genre to remain in the Top 10 most popular music for over 100 years. I personally don't buy into the idea of genre, (or popularity) but thought this might interest people. There's a video here.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Closed (temporarily) for repairs.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Several posts have been deleted. The thread is now open for discussion again. Please keep in mind the Forum Rules, Guidelines & Terms of Service: 



> Be polite to your fellow members. If you disagree with them, please state your opinion in a »civil« and respectful manner. This applies to all communication taking place on Talk Classical, whether by means of posts, private messages, visitor messages, blogs or social groups.
> 
> Do not post comments about other members person or »posting style« on the forum (unless said comments are unmistakably positive). Argue opinions all you like but do not get personal and never resort to »ad homs«.


Edited to add: also a reminder that discussion about politics is not allowed. Some posts have been edited or deleted.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

There is a rule of thumb popularized by Nassim Taleb that institutions (in the broadest senses) are more likely to keep going if they have been around very long already. The conditions for growing, dwindling, survival were rather different for most of the history of CM than they are since the era of mass media but CM has survived both in the era of mostly hand copied scores, of affordable sheet music and modern mass media for hundreds of years altogether, so I don't think it is an overly bold prediction that it will survive.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Classical music is not dead, but contemporary classical music hardly gets a life.

To be honest, most of the the classical music we are listening to is dead. It was written more than a man's lifetime ago. If music transports anything about the spirit, the mindsets, the ideas, the ideals, ... you name it ... from the time when it was written, then we are consuming old time stuff.

Yes, this old stuff has something to tell, which might be interesting to us. The same way as Shakespeare or Goethe have something to tell to us.

But contemporary classical music has lost the contact to the society. You could argue that never more than 4 % had access to classical music, neither in Renaissance nor in Baroque nor at Beethovens time etc. 

However, if Verdi composed a new opera, many people were excited about this and couldn't wait to see it on stage. But who cares today about a new opera from, say, Saija Kaariaho?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Philidor said:


> But who cares today about a new opera from, say, Saija Kaariaho?


Maybe a joke that went over my head, but her name is of course Kaija Saariaho (for those who want to check her out, the right spelling would help).


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Art Rock said:


> Maybe a joke that went over my head, but her name is of course Kaija Saariaho (for those who want to check her out, the right spelling would help).


You passed the exam, congratulations! :tiphat: Just to show that my words are true ...

... no, my error, thank you for pointing out.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Philidor said:


> Classical music is not dead, but contemporary classical music hardly gets a life.
> 
> To be honest, most of the the classical music we are listening to is dead. It was written more than a man's lifetime ago. If music transports anything about the spirit, the mindsets, the ideas, the ideals, ... you name it ... from the time when it was written, then we are consuming old time stuff.
> 
> ...


Perhaps, in the backwoods of Bingen contemporary classical gets little airing, but then who have you produced since the great Hildegard more than 800 years ago?

Had you been in London with me last night and seen the rapturous applause accorded to Coll, Roth and kopatchinskaja, you would better comprehend how contemporary classical is a living, breathing life force.

Rock is redundant, jazz is junk. The cave paintings of Lascaux are more advanced than popular music, with our masses smashing bones on the ground, like those apes in the opening scenes of Stanley Kubrick's 2001… with the contrasting soundtrack of Strauss' Thus Spake Zarathustra reminding us all of the possibilities of civilisation.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

In case posters are not following my train of thought, lack my cultural capital or think I am being too obtuse…


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Perhaps, in the backwoods of Bingen contemporary classical gets little airing, but then who have you produced since the great Hildegard more than 800 years ago?


Thank you for throwing the ball in my court! Bingen has produced Stefan George, whose words are used in Schönberg's 2nd string quartet op. 10, mvts 3 and 4, thus opening the door to atonal music.

Not too bad as a contribution to musical progress, imho. 



Ludwig Schon said:


> Had you been in London with me last night and seen the rapturous applause accorded to Coll, Roth and kopatchinskaja, you would better comprehend how contemporary classical is a living, breathing life force.


I wish I had been with you in London last night. Can you tell me which share concerts like this one have among all concerts with classical music in London? Two digits would be enough in terms of precision ...


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Philidor said:


> Thank you for throwing the ball in my court! Bingen has produced Stefan George, whose words are used in Schönberg's 2nd string quartet op. 10, mvts 3 and 4, thus opening the door to atonal music.
> 
> Not too bad as a contribution to musical progress, imho.
> 
> I wish I had been with you in London last night. Can you tell me which share concerts like this one have among all conerts with classical music in London? Two digits would be enough in terms of precision ...


I love Stefan George, and didn't know he came from Bingen. Webern also made great use of his poems in 4 lieder…

Here is a link to last night's concert programme, which also included two even less established contemporary classical composers than Coll:

https://www.barbican.org.uk/whats-on/2022/event/london-symphony-orchestra-francois-xavier-roth


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

"Any music older than last month is dead.": Federigo Nicce


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Had you been in London with me last night and seen the rapturous applause accorded to Coll, Roth and kopatchinskaja, you would better comprehend how contemporary classical is a living, breathing life force.


Now I'm jealous. I like the Coll concerto a lot and am a huge fan of Roth. I have followed Kopatchinskaja for more than a decade. I'm not sure I am in agreement with you about rock music - your taste seems too soft for me. But do certainly agree that modern pop music tends to be moronic. Rock is a term I use quite flexibly - I'm not up on current rock acts but enjoyed a lot of Britpop (including Pulp and Oasis) and like Radiohead as much as anyone does. I feel that it is hard to separate blues, folk, soul, reggae and rap from rock music - they are all genres that belong in a category which is as wide as the category "classical music".

As for jazz, when do you feel that jazz died?


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

music that is not composed any more (like rock) is not dead as a lot of people still listen to past recordings and attend sold-out concerts of old performers; music that is not listened to any more might be dead or in hibernation (see the famous case of vivaldi who became virtually unknown until he was rediscovered around 1970 as old manuscripts were found); the share of voice of classical music has diminished because there is so much competition from other genres, but a good concert programme will be sold out even for contemporary classical; most of the established contemporary classical composers are intellectuals who are interested by a multitude of topics, which is not the case of most people today who live for the quick now; francisco coll recently composed a piece wherein each of the three movements represents a different time (past, present, future); miles away from the quick now; but as the thread initiator mentioned there is a lot of interest for his music; so, no worries


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

JS Bach was considered ‘dead’ by all but a few until young Mendelssohn revived the St Matthew Passion. Last night I had performance of the St John passion which was completely sold out. Young people in the choirs. Dead? You must be joking!


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Strange Magic said:


> "Any music older than last month is dead.": Federigo Nicce


 Mr Nicce appears a Sizeable Plonker!


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## GMB (10 mo ago)

Pop and rock are really songs and they will always be relevant for young people particularly. They are contemporary for social, political, romantic themes and help young people to relate to the world.
Classical music, ie wordless music, is transcendental, beyond the here and now, and is a totally different experience for those who want it.
There is no competition between them.
I began with the very wordy Bob Dylan and folk-singers and moved beyond words to Mozart, Beethoven and others.
There will always be a place for both popular music and classical music.It is the responsibility of those in classical music today to produce and promote top class works.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Neo Romanza said:


> Recognizing the relationship between rock and classical is one thing, but the OP's tirades suggest something completely different.


Yeah, I think you're on to something there.

When the OP closes out the opening comment with the phrase, *"smelly, crusty hippies like Neil Young"*, I think you might detect some inherent bias


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

pianozach said:


> Yeah, I think you're on to something there.
> 
> When the OP closes out the opening comment with the phrase, *"smelly, crusty hippies like Neil Young"*, I think you might detect some inherent bias


In my locale, every other popular music FM station is playing classic rock, which indicates that it is alive and kicking.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

pianozach said:


> Yeah, I think you're on to something there.
> 
> When the OP closes out the opening comment with the phrase, *"smelly, crusty hippies like Neil Young"*, I think you might detect some inherent bias


I actually like Neil Young, especially his Ditch Trilogy; Ambulance Blues, Motion Pictures, Tired Eyes and Last Dance are great songs.

People on this forum need to appreciate the humour in my occasional ad hominems, Mods included!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

CM may not be dead, but it sure is on life support. Look at how many orchestras now are doing pops concerts, accompanying movies and such to help pay the bills. Even Cleveland is doing it. Can you imagine that ever happening during the Szell tenure? I know way too many young music school graduates who have little to no knowledge of the repertoire and it doesn't seem to bother them. I know music teachers who have zero interest in CM - they listen to pop music in different forms all day. Major corporations used to support orchestras and opera companies but in this age of wokeness even that's drying up. The sense of noblesse oblige has escaped the new super-rich. Long gone are the Rockefellers and Carnegies who felt that raising the level of culture would improve society. Fortunately there are places in the world where CM continues to thrive. The London Proms is highly encouraging. The large number of CM festivals in Colorado each summer, too. But sadly, for the vast majority of people, CM is still seen as a diversion for rich white folks and that doesn't cut it anymore. The CM world gets its share of blame for sure: playing and replaying the same repertoire year after year doesn't help. But composers have forgotten how to write music that is worth playing and listening to by and large. Every year the League of American Orchestras spends a lot of time and money on the problem but frankly solutions are few.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

I worked as a lawyer & consultant for many years in the City of London. 

Lunchtime concerts at St Anne & Agnes, St Mary-le-Bow and St Stephen Walbrook, got me through some pretty tough times… I had never really appreciated early music & Baroque before that…It always amazed me that while secular Ludwig was inside a church finding musical salivation in Telemann’s Paris Quartets, a multitude of other office workers were outside in some soulless coffee-chain staring vacantly into space…

Music saves lives…


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> CM may not be dead, but it sure is on life support. Look at how many orchestras now are doing pops concerts, accompanying movies and such to help pay the bills. Even Cleveland is doing it. Can you imagine that ever happening during the Szell tenure? (...) But composers have forgotten how to write music that is worth playing and listening to by and large


To be fair, with their strong sight-reading skills and great discipline and precision, the Clevelanders are a match made in heaven for live-to-projection concerts, moreso than for, say, free-flowing Romantic concert pieces.

Also agree about contemporary composers. Minor works pass for major ones now.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

As long as there is a reasonable ability for them to do so, people will always feel compelled to write art music. 

Whether this music is necessarily connected to the tradition of classical music is an open question - classical music may die, but art music never will.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Ludwig Schon said:


> The best western music produced - outside of classical - in the last 30 years has been rap, techno, house, electronic, grime, drill and low-fi.


just as a case in point, but among its multiple points-of-origin, modern electronic includes things on the fringe of classical music, such as tape music, avant-gardeism, and minimalism

this does not mean modern electronic lays claim to the tradition of western classical music - it's a synthesis of music from a great number of sources - but there will always be a lineage of people creating art music, as long as artists are allowed to exist.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

fbjim said:


> As long as there is a reasonable ability for them to do so, people will always feel compelled to write art music.
> 
> Whether this music is necessarily connected to the tradition of classical music is an open question - classical music may die, but art music never will.


In another post I proposed the genre in Rock of the Rock Art Song, which largely reflects the (re)discovery of Romanticism on the part of several rock artists. Examples would include songs like _Kashmir, Cortez the Killer, Theme for an Imaginary Western, Saint Charles, Those Were the Days_ and many more. The parallel--not exact--is with Lieder.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

A personal favourite…

Motorik meets Gregorian chant:


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Classical music probably won't die until humans destroys themselves, but the invisible barrier separating it from popular music will (is) collapse(ing).


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Ludwig Schon said:


> It's not about what the proles need to get them through the night, to face one more lonely day.
> 
> It's about what lives and breathes and evolves, musically. Based on that criteria, Rock is as dead as a Doda bird.


Uh...and so is the music that most classical music lovers consider classical music. The Baroque, Classical, and Romantic eras have all have their heydays. Or are you reveling in the thought experiments and avant-garde endeavors of the 21st century? As far as having mainstream appeal in its evolution, classical music is as dead as rock if not more so. And I like modern music.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

chu42 said:


> Uh...and so is the music that most classical music lovers consider classical music. The Baroque, Classical, and Romantic eras have all have their heydays. Or are you reveling in the thought experiments and avant-garde endeavors of the 21st century? As far as having mainstream appeal in its evolution, classical music is as dead as rock if not more so. And I like modern music.


One of my favourite contemporary classical composers, Linda Catlin Smith, draws extensively on baroque instrumentation to inform and develop her practice. Only now are our ears catching up with the innovation of CPE Bach's piano sonatas…

Rock is for Plato's cave dwellers who can't see a world beyond 4 golden bars…


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Ludwig Schon said:


> One of my favourite contemporary classical composers, Linda Catlin Smith, draws extensively on baroque instrumentation to inform and develop her practice. Only now are our ears catching up with the innovation of CPE Bach's piano sonatas…
> 
> Rock is for Plato's cave dwellers who can't see a world beyond 4 golden bars…


You're stereotyping people who listen to rock, you really don't need to be saying which genre is superior because no one cares


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> You're stereotyping people who listen to rock, you really don't need to be saying which genre is superior because no one cares


If you can't comprehend the play on words and cultural references, perhaps it is better not to comment.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Ludwig Schon said:


> If you can't comprehend the play on words and cultural references, perhaps it is better not to comment.


Perhaps the TC membership is just not equipped to fully appreciate your gift.


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## GMB (10 mo ago)

I love instrumental music which is long and developed. I don't want words or voices, or very rarely.
The best instrumental music is classical, altho' some people prefer jazz, or like film music.
It isn't necessary to use the forms, Symphony, Quartet etc but that has been the case since the 19th Century!
The issue really is about classical forms lasting and that is up to the composer. Did Franz Liszt invent the Symphonic Poem?
It just depends what you mean by " classical". Is it just the forms or is any developed instrumental music " classical"?


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Ludwig Schon said:


> If you can't comprehend the play on words and cultural references, perhaps it is better not to comment.


Perhaps it's better not to be quite so dismissive of others' musical tastes, whether humorously spirited or not? It can be hard to discern the difference.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Ludwig Schon said:


> If you can't comprehend the play on words and cultural references, perhaps it is better not to comment.





Forster said:


> Perhaps it's better not to be quite so dismissive of others' musical tastes, whether humorously spirited or not? It can be hard to discern the difference.


I'm reminded of how people would be so clever in the analyses of the lyrics of *The Beatles*, so much so that they would OVER-analyze them. *John Lennon* thought it so daft that he deliberately would write nonsense lyrics on occasion as a joke, such as in the song *I Am The Walrus*.

Some people didn't get the joke and analyzed them anyway.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

The seriousness of intent that spawned what we label as "Classical music" can be found in various other styles/genres: some Jazz, some songwriters, some bands, all working in various styles. 

Also, there are a number of youngish composers (under 50) writing music which I hear as well within the tradition of Classical music as well as exhibiting cross genre aspects.

I don't see anything positive in making sweeping judgments about large groups of people who listen to a variety of genres, within which there is much variety. No kind of music is monolithic and it evidences a superficial opinion that paints with a broad brush an entire genre, period, style, or audience.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

SanAntone said:


> Also, there are a number of youngish composers (under 50) writing music which I hear as well within the tradition of Classical music as well as exhibiting cross genre aspects.


Do you know if there are composers that are writing music in the baroque, classical or romantic style? would be interesting to hear a purely classical symphony or an extremely romantic violin concerto that was written in the last 40 years or so


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## Chibi Ubu (11 mo ago)

Isn't that what makes music 'Classical Music'? The composition rose to the top, like cream? Timelessness? Yes, semantics, no? <giggles>

Cheers!


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

mbhaub said:


> CM may not be dead, but it sure is on life support. Look at how many orchestras now are doing pops concerts, accompanying movies and such to help pay the bills. Even Cleveland is doing it. Can you imagine that ever happening during the Szell tenure? I know way too many young music school graduates who have little to no knowledge of the repertoire and it doesn't seem to bother them. I know music teachers who have zero interest in CM - they listen to pop music in different forms all day. Major corporations used to support orchestras and opera companies but in this age of wokeness even that's drying up. The sense of noblesse oblige has escaped the new super-rich. Long gone are the Rockefellers and Carnegies who felt that raising the level of culture would improve society. Fortunately there are places in the world where CM continues to thrive. The London Proms is highly encouraging. The large number of CM festivals in Colorado each summer, too. But sadly, for the vast majority of people, CM is still seen as a diversion for rich white folks and that doesn't cut it anymore. The CM world gets its share of blame for sure: playing and replaying the same repertoire year after year doesn't help. But composers have forgotten how to write music that is worth playing and listening to by and large. Every year the League of American Orchestras spends a lot of time and money on the problem but frankly solutions are few.


It is quite common for musicians whether classical or popular to have various strings to their bow unless they are at the absolute top of the tree. So a classical musician maybe playing Beethoven one night and the next morning be doing a recording session with a pop artist and then teaching students in the afternoon. This is always been the case for years


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

EvaBaron said:


> Do you know if there are composers that are writing music in the baroque, classical or romantic style? would be interesting to hear a purely classical symphony or an extremely romantic violin concerto that was written in the last 40 years or so


I don't see the point given that we already have plenty of great music written by composers from those periods.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

marlow said:


> It is quite common for musicians whether classical or popular to have various strings to their bow unless they are at the absolute top of the tree. So a classical musician maybe playing Beethoven one night and the next morning be doing a recording session with a pop artist and then teaching students in the afternoon. This is always been the case for years


I'm reminded of the multiple composers who have written compositions for musical clocks...


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## Nawdry (Dec 27, 2020)

QUOTE=EvaBaron;2253811]Do you know if there are composers that are writing music in the baroque, classical or romantic style? would be interesting to hear a purely classical symphony or an extremely romantic violin concerto that was written in the last 40 years or so[/QUOTE]

The closest to this criterion I can think of is the "Neoclassical" and "Neoromantic" trend, mainly in the first half of the 20th century, which in my estimation produced some of the finest and most beautiful music in the repertoire of human civilization. Iconic in this respect is, of course, Prokofiev's "Classical" Symphony (No. 1), which manages to successfully blend the delightful verve and sparkle of a Classical symphony a la Mozart or Haydn with the pathos, animus, and tonal/harmonic development of this modern industrialized, tumultuous world.

Other composers whose work comes to mind in this regard include the Italians Casella and Respighi, who explicitly sought a kind of "Classical" or Baroque" revival, in modern form, via their melodic and structural compositional techniques. Then there are Bloch's Concerti Grossi; Martinu's Tri Ricercari; Shostakovich's Preludes & Fugues; and so on. I believe these trends were also reflected in the reliance, by numerous modern-era composers, on established multi-movement compositional forms (symphony, concerto, etc.) deploying established compositional structures (sonata form, rondo, etc.).


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Thanks a lot, I will be checking out Prokofiev’s classical symphony!


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> CM may not be dead, but it sure is on life support. Look at how many orchestras now are doing pops concerts, accompanying movies and such to help pay the bills... ....the CM world gets its share of blame for sure: playing and replaying the same repertoire year after year doesn't help.


It seems to me that your statements contradict one another here. Isn't "pops" by definition "new repertoire?"


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

No, "pops" used to mean popular lollipops, like waltzes, shortish "orchestral spectacular" etc. Nowadays also film score extracts (that can be many decades old).
The Vienna New years day concert is a (very repertoire restricted) "pops concert" but most pieces played are around 130-150 years old.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

EvaBaron said:


> Do you know if there are composers that are writing music in the baroque, classical or romantic style? would be interesting to hear a purely classical symphony or an extremely romantic violin concerto that was written in the last 40 years or so


It's not really possible. Computers will probably be able to emulate past (not present) styles better than humans, at some point in the not-so-distant future.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> It's not really possible. Computers will probably be able to emulate past (not present) styles better than humans, at some point in the not-so-distant future.


And they'll take over the world and eradicate or enslave humanity eventually.


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## Nawdry (Dec 27, 2020)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Computers will probably be able to emulate past (not present) styles better than humans, at some point in the not-so-distant future.


The computer "music" I've heard so far, deploying tonal composition, has been hypnotically bo-ring and insipid, but I would think computers would excel in the atonal method, where effective melodies that are inspiring, engaging, breath-taking, gut-wrenching, or heart-rending are not expected.


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

Nawdry said:


> I would think computers would excel in the atonal method, where effective melodies that are inspiring, engaging, breath-taking, gut-wrenching, or heart-rending are not expected.


Do you know what you've done? Now the next 20 pages of this thread are going to be people arguing about atonality! :lol:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Nawdry said:


> , but I would think computers would excel in the atonal method, where effective melodies that are inspiring, engaging, breath-taking, gut-wrenching, or heart-rending are not expected.


O, no.. You're opening another can of worms.. o, no.. o, no..


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

hammeredklavier said:


> O, no.. You're opening another can of worms.. o, no.. o, no..


In fairness, a chimpanzee with a ZX81 could compose something more intellectually challenging than anything John Tavenier ever came up with…


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> Do you know if there are composers that are writing music in the baroque, classical or romantic style? would be interesting to hear a purely classical symphony or an extremely romantic violin concerto that was written in the last 40 years or so


If music or art in general is a testimonial from the time when it emerged, such music can only be a fake copy.

I don't know what the worth of such attempt should be.

And, besides, if some music doesn't come out of a deep need to communicate something, nobody will sit down and write 100 pages of a score. (Did you ever try to copy a single page from a Bruckner symphony by hand? Let alone composing ...) Who should do this only to produce some unauthentic copy?


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

Philidor said:


> If music or art in general is a testimonial from the time when it emerged, such music can only be a fake copy.
> 
> I don't know what the worth of such attempt should be.
> 
> And, besides, if some music doesn't come out of a deep need to communicate something, nobody will sit down and write 100 pages of a score. (Did you ever try to copy a single page from a Bruckner symphony by hand? Let alone composing ...) Who should do this only to produce some unauthentic copy?


Maybe someone just likes the style and wants to make more music of that particular style? Nothing wrong with that. Music doesn't have to be so deep.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

4chamberedklavier said:


> Maybe someone just likes the style and wants to make more music of that particular style? Nothing wrong with that. Music doesn't have to be so deep.


First thing, if the result doesn't have to be deep - how should it then be comparable to a symphony of Bruckner, Tschaikovsky or Mahler? What kind of music do you want? A symphony similar to those that we know and love from the 19th century or something that from a distance more or less sounds the same way?

And, again, just because "someone just likes the style", he or she will probably not sit down and write down sown hundred pages.

The other way round: If you have something to communicate, you will not tell it in the 19th century style.

If you're in love with someone - will you say it in 19th century style? Or will you try to make the best possible authentic statement that you can make?


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

Philidor said:


> A symphony similar to those that we know and love from the 19th century or something that from a distance more or less sounds the same way?


Yes. To be honest, I don't know if there's a correct way to compare works done in an older style with the originals. Most likely they'd be thought of as lesser works since they aren't as innovative, but that doesn't mean there's no point in making them. My guiding principle is variety. If there's a certain style that people like, and if not many people are currently using that style, then composing in that style would be a good thing.



Philidor said:


> If you're in love with someone - will you say it in 19th century style? Or will you try to make the best possible authentic statement that you can make?


It depends. If imitation is what a composer believes to be the most appropriate way to express whatever is in his or her mind, then it can still be something authentic.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

We cannot experience a Beethoven symphony with the same perception as an audience of Beethoven's day, because we cannot "unhear" all the music that has occurred since then which has left an imprint on our consciousness. So too, a composer alive today cannot write a symphony, except superficially, like one by Beethoven because of all of the music (as well as everything else about the modern world) that he has experienced since the time of Beethoven.

The Chinese have a saying, "a man cannot cross the same river twice."


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

4chamberedklavier said:


> [ ... ]My guiding principle is variety. If there's a certain style that people like, and if not many people are currently using that style, then composing in that style would be a good thing.


That's perfectly fine. So sit down and write the music that you are dreaming of. All composers did. (Except for some commisioned works, but that's another game.)


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## Nawdry (Dec 27, 2020)

FYI ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassicism_(music)


> Neoclassicism (music)
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...
> Neoclassicism in music was a twentieth-century trend, particularly current in the interwar period, in which composers sought to return to aesthetic precepts associated with the broadly defined concept of "classicism", namely order, balance, clarity, economy, and emotional restraint. As such, neoclassicism was a reaction against the unrestrained emotionalism and perceived formlessness of late Romanticism, as well as a "call to order" after the experimental ferment of the first two decades of the twentieth century. The neoclassical impulse found its expression in such features as the use of pared-down performing forces, an emphasis on rhythm and on contrapuntal texture, an updated or expanded tonal harmony, and a concentration on absolute music as opposed to Romantic program music.
> ...


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