# Some Operas Better Seen than Heard, Others Better Heard than Seen



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Some operas are better heard than seen. Others are better seen than heard. And some are better neither seen nor heard. Give examples of each that you are aware of. Of course these are not absolute but are our opinions.

I think Puccini's La Fanciulla del West is better seen than heard.

I think Strauss' Capriccio is better neither seen nor heard. I did torture myself with this one recently to confirm my feelings about it.

I don't have an example for one that is better heard than seen. Maybe will think of one later.

Never mind the screwy title, I accidentally submitted in the middle of editing. Guess that is another one for the gripe thread, fingers that accidentally set off unintended results on the computer.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

What title did you go for? I can change it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I would not listen to Britten's Turn of the Screw in the car, but it was very enjoyable theater. I would say the same thing for Mourning Becomes Electra.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> What title did you go for? I can change it.


"Some Operas Better Seen than Heard, Others Better Heard than Seen"

Thanks


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I submit *La Forza Del Destino * as one better heard than seen. It is difficult to stage well and there are longueurs...


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Better Seen Than Heard: Wozzeck
Better Heard Than Seen: Tristan & Isolde
Better Neither Seen Nor Heard: Eurotrash productions


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

nina foresti said:


> Better Neither Seen Nor Heard: Eurotrash productions


:lol: _________________________________________


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I’ve never actually seen an opera (hope to remedy that now that things are opening back up!) but during my surveys of the repertoire thus far, Bluebeard’s Castle, Salome, Pelleas et Melisande, and everything by Wagner has played out really well in my minds’ eye because the scores are so cinematic and create impressions so convincingly. Operas that I feel I would enjoy more in a theater environment include most verismo and bel canto, since the trite (IMO) plots and libretti don’t hold the interest of my imagination.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I wish this was categorized as a symphony; that way, it would probably be better known to the public.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

One's answer to this could hinge on one's musical tastes. I would rather see any Baroque or Classical opera than merely hear it, even including the best of Handel and Mozart. This has partly, but not entirely, to do with recitatives, the drier sorts of which have, as music, much the same effect on me as commercials in TV programs (though the latter are often more imaginative), but which are tolerable when there's lively action on the stage.

Operas with great scores but static stage pictures, such as _Tristan, Parsifal_ and _Pelleas,_ present a challenge to directors and singing actors which may not often be met with entire success. Operas calling for extraordinary staging, such as the _Ring,_ are likely to fall short of either the composer's or the listener's ideals in performance, which may or may not matter. Very long operas present a challenge to the listener's physical endurance. These factors all make listening at home, at one's own pace, a good alternative. Interestingly - since certain Wagner operas figure in these remarks - I would rather see _Meistersinger_ than merely listen to it, and I'd say the same for any other comedy with the possible exception of _Falstaff,_which has such a swift-moving scherzo of a score that many details may get lost in the opera house.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I agree with many things ACB and Woodduck already mentioned. I'm perfectly content with only _listening_ to, say, _Salome_ or _Elektra_. Partly because their scores and librettos are already so vivid that I'm not sure if I want to see anything even more vivid on the stage. However, I think that operas with chatty librettos and relatively many characters (for example Mozart and some Strauss, like _Ariadne_, _Der Rosenkavalier_, _Capriccio_) benefit greatly from visuals.

I would like to see all Wagner's operas in real life traditionally staged as well. I haven't seen a single Wagner opera in real life, which needs to be remedied. However, I fully agree what Woodduck said about _Die Meistersinger_ - I think my appreciation of _Die Meistersinger_ has benefitted most from watching a staged production. The comedy becomes so much more evident when you can actually see it, and it's immensely fun to watch.

I feel that the main benefit of seeing an opera is that you are able to fully focus on the opera. _Tristan_ might not reach equal dramatic heights when, instead of a dying Tristan, I'm watching my neighbour mow the grass outside .


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Given some of the productions I've seen in recent years, I'd say most operas are better heard than seen; and some, like the *La Bohème* I saw at the ENO four or five years ago, are better neither heard nor seen. :devil:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

_Pace _SixFootScowl, but Capriccio is a delight to both listen to and watch.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> _Pace _SixFootScowl, but Capriccio is a delight to both listen to and watch.


I'll instruct my family that if I am ever in a coma to turn on Capriccio for me. :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> _Pace _SixFootScowl, but Capriccio is a delight to both listen to and watch.


Relative to _Arabella,_ I guess...

Or is it the other way around?


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I like Allegro Con Brio's use of the term "Cinematic" to describe certain operas. My favorite operas, many of which Allegro named, create a strong soundscape for the drama to unfold in that really feels like it is a world. They also direct the listener's attention to details within that world and within the characters, like a director using closeups of objects and actors. _Il tabarro_ is a good example of this. During the first argument between Michele and Giorgetta, the song peddler is singing in the background and Puccini puts both scenes in one frame as it were, creating an ironic tableaux through the juxtaposition, just as a great director might. The ability to have two streams of action going on simultaneously is an interesting quality that both film and music share.

The more generic the music and orchestration are, the more visual aid I need to get and keep me interested.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Now that you've got me considering the question, I guess I like some operas more than others, and would rather hear OR see the ones I like. I'd say my DVD and CD collections more or less confirm that feeling.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Hearing some recently composed operas on Met broadcasts (Glass, Ades, Muhly, Saariaho), finding their music unmoving, unpleasant or unmemorable, and reading comments about their theatrical effectiveness, I suspect most late-20th and 21st century operas would fall, for me, into the "better seen than heard" category, and perhaps most of those into the "best neither seen nor heard" category. They do at least qualify for "never to be heard again."


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I've never been much a fan of Philip Glass, but I think his operas work better when you can see them. On CD, they tend to be deadly boring because of the constant repetition, but seeing the action , whether at a live performance or on DVD, the addition of being able to see the production makes them somewhat more palatable for me at least . I've seen Akhnaten on youtube from one of the regional opera companies recently and found it surprisingly enjoyable.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

superhorn said:


> I've never been much a fan of Philip Glass, but I think his operas work better when you can see them. On CD, they tend to be deadly boring because of the constant repetition, but seeing the action , whether at a live performance or on DVD, the addition of being able to see the production makes them somewhat more palatable for me at least . I've seen Akhnaten on youtube from one of the regional opera companies recently and found it surprisingly enjoyable.


There's plenty of music that works in the theater (or on the screen) that's not so interesting heard on its own.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

In my younger days, when I was at university in Newcastle-upon-Tyne I would go to see whatever opera came to the city regardless of whether it was something I knew. I remember one year Scottish Opera brought touring productions of *Lucia di Lammermoor*, *Der Rosenkavalier* and Henze's *Elegy for Young Lovers*, none of which I'd heard before or knew any of the music from. Of the three, *Der Rosenkavalier* easily made the greatest impression, a performance that has stayed in my memory ever since (Helga Dernsech still the best Marschallin I've ever seen). I'd also been looking forward to the *Lucia* immensely, but it hardly made any impression at all, whereas the Henze, which is not someting I would have sought out, was absolutely riveting and a totally thrilling performance.

That said, once I acquired a recording of *Lucia* (Callas naturally) it became a regular visitor to my turntable. The Henze I haven't listened to or seen again since. It's just not the sort of music I want to listen to at home.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

“Relative to Arabella, I guess...

Or is it the other way around?”


Miaow! Saucer of milk for W! I do have to say though that Arabella is by far my least favourite Strauss opera. I have tried, goodness knows I’ve tried, but to no avail. Nothing resonates.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> I do have to say though that Arabella is by far my least favourite Strauss opera. I have tried, goodness knows I've tried, but to no avail. Nothing resonates.


All the best bits of the opera (and all I really need) are on the Schwarzkopf excerpts disc.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

NLAdriaan said:


> My best Wagner staging was while driving with some friends (in a smooth 1965 Cadillac V8) through the hilly forests of the Belgian Ardennes in twilight with Parsifal by Barenboim on my car stereo with hi quality speakers and the volume right up. No one said a word, my friends never heard Parsifal before. Just a lucky moment and I will never forget it.
> 
> I am now just looking at a youtube of Parsifal with Barenboim and staging by Harry Kupfer, it starts in a bank safe. It just takes away all magic from the music. Not all modern staging works






btw, the stuff at 33:40 is magical


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

heard: The Ring Cycle, Dido and Aeneas, Turandot
seen: Carmen, Butterfly, Traviata, Barbieri

the more compelling and easy to capture the plot is, the more I'd rather see it. ex: when done well, Butterfly is convincingly romantic in a way that a lot of other operas are not. this goes beyond just the music by itself. in contrast, I've maybe seen ONE Turandot who actually came off as believably feminine. most of them come off like frigid drag queens who no one would want to take any risks to marry. (the one who did is Dragana Radakovich who looked absolutely stunning and is convincingly sexy. like, it's not like I expect any singer to look like Marilyn Monroe, but SOME level of sensual appeal is important to make it believable that the protagonist would find them desirable. the same applies for male leads like Don Giovanni).


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Better seen than heard: Falstaff
Better heard than seen: Parsifal, Lohengrin, T&I.
Better neither heard nor seen: Elektra


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## Dick Johnson (Apr 14, 2020)

Better seen than heard: Almost everything. In particular "talky" operas such as Dialogues des Carmelites and comedies in general - Don Pasquale, Viaggio a Rheims, Comte Ory, Meistersinger, Merry Widow (if that's an opera) come to mind.

Better heard than seen: Most Regietheater productions. Maybe some Handel such as Serse or Tamerlano are in this category - love the music but have never seen a great staging - on the other hand maybe I have just missed the good productions of those since some other Handel operas seem to do very well to being seen as well as heard (Rodelina, Cesare, Arminio, Alessandro, etc).

Neutral: operas that I know well - I can enjoy these equally by watching or hearing alone but that is only because I can follow in my mind.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Dick Johnson said:


> Better seen than heard: Almost everything. In particular "talky" operas such as Dialogues des Carmelites and comedies in general - Don Pasquale, Viaggio a Rheims, Comte Ory, Meistersinger, Merry Widow (if that's an opera) come to mind.
> 
> Better heard than seen: Most Regietheater productions. Maybe some Handel such as Serse or Tamerlano are in this category - love the music but have never seen a great staging - on the other hand maybe I have just missed the good productions of those since some other Handel operas seem to do very well to being seen as well as heard (Rodelina, Cesare, Arminio, Alessandro, etc).
> 
> *Neutral: operas that I know well *- I can enjoy these equally by watching or hearing alone but that is only because I can follow in my mind.


I assume that La fanciulla del West falls into your last category, though many would put it in the category of better seen than heard.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SixFootScowl said:


> I assume that La fanciulla del West falls into your last category, though many would put it in the category of better seen than heard.


I wouldn't. I think it's one of Puccini's most interesting scores, although the first act is a little slow to catch fire.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I wouldn't. I think it's one of Puccini's most interesting scores, although the first act is a little slow to catch fire.


Ok. I just listened to it this morning and would say that it is definitely great to hear, but needs the experience of having seen it enough to be familiar with it (I have and have seen every commercial DVD of it). Not like bel canto where one can just listen to an opera without even knowing the story and enjoy much of the music/singing.


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## khalan (Jun 4, 2021)

I would state a lot of Baroque Operas are actually better Heard than seen as nowadays the staging of these can be pretty minimalist in comparison to when in their times there were scenographies full of mechanisms and costumes a lot more elaborate (some productions have costumes which seem pretty poorly adorned. There are some productions which try to do this the old way like somewhere in Sweden if I recall has a theater specialized on this.


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