# Directory for making good music in our Modern Age.



## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Modern composers probably have too many impure ideas about music to distract them from their natural development. Survival of many classical music was not intentional even printing technology could help transmit many works across countries, classical composers could not have the idea that their works can survive hundrels of years. While learning from the past is very important, but focusing upon our time/contemporary age is of the crucial importance for the contemporary stylistic establishment. 

This is an summary I come up with after a long time contemplation on reason of musical defeat of our age. 

1-Focus badly needed: distractions by industrial, commercial ideologies from touching the core spirit of the contemporary age. Focusing on the current audience, current generation of listeners, and sacrifice the best ideas and energy into every piece.

2-Lacking philosophical audacity, many modern artists and thinkers only rely on political correctness to paint themself as avant-guards, in fact they are just cowards pandering to the taste of the worse part of people. They do not even realize it.

3-Detaching from the spirit of traditional values, but at the same time also detached from the contemporary people, leaving for themself a totally mis-represented image of the future. So everybody wants to be a Monteverdi, groping for a false future blindly without any knowledge of ones own position. 

4-Total ignorace and compromise of and to the inherent vulgarity of materialism, because of all round compromises of traditional and all moral values to the atheistic, materialistic ideologies, most people do not know that materialism is foundamentally vulgar and can not be made up for with any excuses(including science). So we have writers, musicians, all kinds of artist to exert their intelligence to beautify this vulgarity in hope of justifying it somehow. It just never works. Materialistic and analytical music simply by nature inferior to all spiritual chants, I even have a copy of Buddhist chants.

5-Fail to stand in the most fierce ideological cross-fire of the contemporary age. Only within the most dangerous streams of ideological vortex of the time, one can see the true color of the age, touch the spirit of the age. It is not a stretch to make a composer into a proper warrior to make some good music. 

6-Do not underestimate music, I can hear it, even most people can not hear it, someone will and God will.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

The problem of tonality:

Most non-western music has a pentatonic system, while music made from this system may sound a bit primitive, lacking expressive potential for the wide variety of texts, but for the most traditional usage in religious and civilian purposes has been more than enough. Western diatonic system were rooted in the greek gnostic traditions of the Pythagorean School, which believes harmony is a reasonable conception:



> Since they held that harmony must be determined not by the sense perceptions but by reason and mathematics, the Pythagoreans called themselves Canonics, as distinguished from musicians of the Harmonic School, who asserted taste and instinct to be the true normative principles of harmony.


-- The Pythagorean Theory of Music

But wait, it is not a classical support for modern atheism, Pythoreans are more christian than todays christians. Sorry.

Christian gnosticism has a deep relationship with metaphysical symbolisms in music and arts, which atheists take for a great antogonist. The reason proposed by Pythagoreans is different from the definition of it by modern philosophers, like Newtons notion of science, every scientific law is dictated by the premise of the creational origin. I might call Newtonian science as a continuation of Pythagorean gnosticism. Marxist science is a major departure from the origin of western music, it can not be considered as proper western music if not composed according to the asthetics established by classical composers.

Under the corruption of modern music, reconstruction of indigenous music of ancient civilizations could be a feasible idea. In the field of music, it is always resourceful to make pilgrimage retrospectively, starting from the pentatonic music which are mostly handed down through oral traditions, including ancient Egyptian music which was praised by Plato himself. Though these songs can be considered as predecessors to the gnostic development by ancient greek scholars, 
they could still be the vessel of many lost cultural messages we might need today. Rather than being mixed up by the marxist perspective of scientific developments, we can opt to reset our tradition from the pre-gnostic heritage.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I wonder if you think that say, Pärt, Tavener, Scelsi or Gubaidulina maybe live up somewhat to your stated ideals ...


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> I wonder if you think that say, Pärt, Tavener, Scelsi or Gubaidulina maybe live up somewhat to your stated ideals ...


Arvo Part: I just tried a few instrumental pieces. If JS Bach is 100, he is 55, the only one to cross the middle line. He should be the standard for certification to compose modern music while some were forbidden to do so. I like his treatment of the violin, straighforward while not ignoring the virtuosic potentials. I will buy his music.

John Taverner: I can not find many of his vocal works on internet since he is a namesake with a Renaissance composer, not quite sure for now. A few available videos do not differentiate between the two Taverners.

The other two, not so soon to form a clear opinion, but Gubaidulina is probably not mine for the first listening.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The Renaissance guy is Taverner, 
the contemporary guy (now deceased) is Tavener.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

JS Bach is actually an infinitum, my highest expectation for modern music is only 40 out of JS Bachs 100. I will never rank any modern composer to over 80 under any conditions, unless he was resurrected. 55-60 is a pinnacle for modern music. Arvo Part greatly surpassed my expectation in modern instrumental music. I have yet to try his vocal music.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> The Renaissance guy is Taverner,
> the contemporary guy (now deceased) is Tavener.


Oops, I never noticed that untill now, I will need some time to find his musical samples, there is only one video of Queen Diana
Requiem with very bad sound.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Ariasexta said:


> JS Bach is actually an infinitum, my highest expectation for modern music is only 40 out of JS Bachs 100. I will never rank any modern composer to over 80 under any conditions, unless he was resurrected. 55-60 is a pinnacle for modern music. Arvo Part greatly surpassed my expectation in modern instrumental music. I have yet to try his vocal music.


I think you could benefit from studying the subject of contemporary composers further. There's a bigger variation than you might think.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

I am listening to his Te Deum, he is quite a warrior now. Though I refuse to rank classical composer, but I must rank modern composers. The ranks as follows with corresponding scoring. Above 75 is impossible, is reserved for Messiah who can turn the space-time around. 

1-Valkyries Musician or Einherjar 60-75 
2-Warrior 40-60 
3-Musician 30-40
4-Player 20-30 
--------
5-5th and below should not be allowed to compose. below 20
--------

Arvo Part now is 60 for his Te Deum, an einherja now. It means I can not pick his faults, nice, I am his fan now. 
An einherja will have me as a fan. :tiphat:


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> I think you could benefit from studying the subject of contemporary composers further. There's a bigger variation than you might think.


There is something destined presides over my perspective on modern music, it means, I am more mystical than the Pythagoreans, and my view on modern music can not be alighted with the means of variety of thematics or harmonics. I do not care if there is only one or two musicans left, but there could be 5, 10 or 20 of them, that will already be a miracle.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Some more candidates would include

- Schnittke, choral works including Choir Concerto
- Gorecki, almost all choral works
- John Rutter, choral works
- Silvestrov, a lot of it
- Artyomov, such as Lamentations
- Ljubica Maric, Byzantine Concerto for piano, possibly
- Pettersson, Symphony no.8, possibly
- Hovhaness
- Morton Feldman, possibly
- Nørgård, Symphony no.3, possibly
- Crumb, Sonata Solo Cello, possibly

There's an incredible lot to explore out there.


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## julide (Jul 24, 2020)

Is anyone else confused by Ariasexta. They have really interesting vibes and their language and syntax is quite different.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> Some more candidates would include
> 
> - Schnittke, choral works including Choir Concerto
> - Gorecki, almost all choral works
> ...


Thanks, Arvo Part was a good start to encourage me to further down the way of modern adventures. I probably will use more times to try one by one, btw, if I failed to comment some you can take them as non-warriors. Being so so is not enough for modern musicians.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

julide said:


> Is anyone else confused by Ariasexta. They have really interesting vibes and their language and syntax is quite different.


There is a control of language and harshness toward the mainstream opinions. I guess it is my audacity emanates the interesting vibe, all my ideas come from my risky position on politics and philosophy.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I second the interest from a reader's angle. Ariasexta's "writer's writer" quality is rather refreshing in this day and age.

I would suggest this brief, but powerful chant:





John Williams is certainly over 80. 88 - in fact.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Ariasexta said:


> There is a control of language and harshness toward the mainstream opinions. I guess it is my audacity emanates the interesting vibe, all my ideas come from my risky position on politics and philosophy.


Before I offer any comment let me ask, is English your primary language?


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

That was harsh, becky...!!!


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

@Faublin

Thanks for all the nudgings. I am also considering compose a few piece as a tastament for my philosophizations and learnings. It is quite a huge push for me since years ago from many knightly voices here. I will be happy to know many more recommendations of modern composers. But for the present I can not access YT, VPN is still not install, it need registering many personal infos, I always refrain from doing so. And I do want some recommendations of solo cello or violin music from any periods without piano accompaniment, or with guitar or harp supplanted in piano accompaniment.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Becca said:


> Before I offer any comment let me ask, is English your primary language?


No. I am a zhuang chinese.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Zhuang ethnic has a legendary composer : LiuSanJie(618AD-???) , many ethnic zhuangs songs are said to have been orally handed down from her improvisations. Her songs tonally sound like songs from Llibre Vermell. Llibre Vermell is an amazing collection of songs which are said to have been influenced by the lost musical tradition from the fallen Byzantine. Eastern people had some good music but either were orally transmitted or lost in the time, however, it is the nature of music, intentional survival goes against the nature of it. It is why there is an unprecedented job to rediscover this part of heritage along with the ignored modern and classical western music. I am dreaming about reconstructing ancient Egyptian or Sumerian music from all the scattered pieces from hindi, arabian, islamic, african people. Is it possible? But it is a good vision anyway.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Flamme said:


> That was harsh, becky...!!!


Haha, it is fine, the broad-band here is very slow, I always hurry to post before spell-checking.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Funny, but I have no problems finding good n(subjectively speaking), and great, classical music in the modern age. 

Most of my collection is filled with it.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Simon Moon said:


> Funny, but I have no problems finding good n(subjectively speaking), and great, classical music in the modern age.
> 
> Most of my collection is filled with it.


Can not say they are mostly bad, I am probably finding someone who can gravitate me from the pull of the classical ages and then I will say, em, that will be amazing. :lol:


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

John Rutter, another warrior. He simply refuses many modern ideals of avant-guardism, sensationalism, critically applauded disruption in melodies, he holds his own heritage upon his hands like a loyal gardener taking care of the garden. I think it is important to be able to ignore the critics somehow, you will be doomed if you feel yourself being controlled by their opinions as a composer. 

I am expecting more from modern composers than just seeing charaterictic variations in treatments of the same direction I propose here. Since Arvo Paert is one to be seen as the model, it is not enough to compose in his apparent style, that will only put one in the musician rank at best. To be a warrior, one has to surpass my written directory which was just meant to be the Musician Ranks directory and show me some new directions in return. Arvo Paert does it, he surpassed my written directory.

The variations in person style and virtuosic features are not enough for modern composers, since given the resources we have today. We can not see them through the same scale of distinguishment as the classical composers.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Ariasexta said:


> John Rutter, another warrior. He simply refuses many modern ideals of avant-guardism, sensationalism, critically applauded disruption in melodies, he holds his own heritage upon his hands like a loyal gardener taking care of the garden. I think it is important to be able to ignore the critics somehow, you will be doomed if you feel yourself being controlled by their opinions as a composer.
> 
> I am expecting more from modern composers than just seeing charaterictic variations in treatments of the same direction I propose here. Since Arvo Paert is one to be seen as the model, it is not enough to compose in his apparent style, that will only put one in the musician rank at best. To be a warrior, one has to surpass my written directory which was just meant to be the Musician Ranks directory and show me some new directions in return. Arvo Paert does it, he surpassed my written directory.
> 
> The variations in person style and virtuosic features are not enough for modern composers, since given the resources we have today. We can not see them through the same scale of distinguishment as the classical composers.


The 2021 concert seasons in Australia recently came out, and I decided to give a listen to music from the contemporary composers commissioned/performed by the major orchestras. There's on average about 0.5 contemporary works per concert from what I've seen so far and probably 90% of the music I've listened to from these composers is a kind of neo-romanticism or post-minimalism. I dare say most of the music I've heard would appeal to the naysayers on here. Another, more forward-thinking 8% or so tends to take queues from the more adventurous music in other genres and combines them with classical structure and instruments: but it's still mainly tonal. The remaining 2% is more modernistic, but still not in a hardcore way.

This is not to say that the more avant-garde leaning music has gone out of fashion overall. There are quite a few smaller ensembles around who specialise in this music and have dedicated audiences (especially Elision over here), but it definitely does not have much of a place at all in the more 'mainstream' concert hall.

All of this is to say: there is SO much tonal, harmonious music being written that harks back to earlier times with some modern colour often (but not always) added in, and I feel like either many simply don't do their research or, perhaps, the situation in Australia is different.

Here are some attractive works I've listened to the last couple of days while looking into this...


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Ariasexta said:


> No. I am a zhuang chinese.


U are, really??? U sound more eastern european to me...


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Flamme said:


> U are, really??? U sound more eastern european to me...


Been messing around the internet since 1999AD, trusted topic maker in all international forums. :lol:
I know some eastern europeans who give similar vibe as mine, whining about spcial and historical unrests within their home countries.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Would never in my life thought that you are chinese...Your avatar, name and the way you write made me think of Pole or Russian...Especially the way you support the ''tradition''...I never met a chinaman who was into tradition that much.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Flamme said:


> Would never in my life thought that you are chinese...Your avatar, name and the way you write made me think of Pole or Russian...Especially the way you support the ''tradition''...I never met a chinaman who was into tradition that much.


especially western tradition, that it's not chinese tradition


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

> Another, more forward-thinking 8% or so tends to take queues from the more adventurous music in other genres and combines them with classical structure and instruments: but it's still mainly tonal. The remaining 2% is more modernistic, but still not in a hardcore way.


I am quite aware of the amount of sweat and labor that has been put into making modern music. Minimalism could be on point about my favored modern style, still not exactly. Montaigne once said:" Complexity can be an excuse for inanity." I have his book in English translation. There could a kind of music which is made for cerebral excitement like what Mozart wrote for the secret brotherhoods.(Mozarts music is still among the best for whoever it was written.)

Elitists seem to have some very cerebral tastes within which they feel the call of chaos and their self-appointed leadership of all humanity. Unfortunately, most critics today follow their suite and shape our mass opinion after their criticism.

I am not going directly against the elitism in music, just trying to go the opposite way for the simplicity and transparency. Although Heraclitus once also mentioned that unapparent harmony is better than the apparent, but what hides the unapparent harmony? certainly not just apparent chaos and cerebral chaos, because many those people do not realize most common people are very tired every day. I am not choosing bewteen the minority and majority, there should be a balance, but currently, elitism has twisted this balance.



> All of this is to say: there is SO much tonal, harmonious music being written that harks back to earlier times with some modern colour often (but not always) added in, and I feel like either many simply don't do their research or, perhaps, the situation in Australia is different.


Most people also unknowingly being led by the unbalanced opinions from the elites, they can not know what music they really love. Tonal music to be produced in large amount could sound weary, but it is another illusion, since why would people listen to so much modern music after all? So we go for atonal ones? That is absurd and people do not realize this. Normal people will be tired of listening too much music, any kind of music, just atonal music challenge their brains so they can not remember at all.

This has never been the problem after all, the problem is the music industry is too commercialized, most people can not get through the commercialism to get the musical ideas. On the other hand, concert is the important classical means to transmit serious music, but that is all, people is not supposed to understand more than the obliged attendance. On the contrary, attending JS Bachs concert, everyone will get the apparent grandeur, the shock will be enduring and effective, even though they do not get the underlying musical ideas.

Modern music asking people to get the hidden messages is self-frustrating, if you can not creat apparently engagng pieces, how can people believe you can creat hidden harmonies?

BTW, I can not access YT, you could give me the names of the composers or the titles of compositions.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Flamme said:


> Would never in my life thought that you are chinese...Your avatar, name and the way you write made me think of Pole or Russian...Especially the way you support the ''tradition''...I never met a chinaman who was into tradition that much.


Significantly majority chinese are pro-western, even if they can be anti-Japan or russophiles at the same time. The West can simply rule China by referandum, but wait, the leftists will mess up again.  My avatar is manga version of Hyde, the vocal of L arc en Ciel band, I use it as a token of undying passion.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Ariasexta said:


> I am quite aware of the amount of sweat and labor that has been put into making modern music. Montaigne once said:" Complexity can be an excuse for inanity." I have his book in English translation. Elitists seem to have some very cerebral tastes within which they feel the call of chaos and their self-appointed leadership of all humanity. I am not going directly against the elitism in music, just trying to go the opposite way for the simplicity and transparency. Although Heraclitus once also mentioned that unapparent harmony is better than the apparent, but what hides the unapparent harmony? certainly not just apparent chaos and cerebral chaos, because many those people do not realize most common people are very tired every day. I am not choosing bewteen the minority and majority, there should be a balance, but currently, elitism has twisted this balance.
> Tonal music to be produced in large amount could sound weary, but it is another illusion, since why would people listen to so much modern music after all? So we go for atonal ones? That is absurd and people do not realize this. Normal people will be tired of listening too much music, any kind of music, just atonal music challenge their brains so they can not remember at all. Modern music asking people to get the hidden messages is self-frustrating, if you can not creat apparently engagng pieces, how can people believe you can creat hidden harmonies?


Is this some kind of a rant against atonal and serial music? It belies a very conservative taste in music. Some listeners apparently missed the boat when it came to atonality. It's an acquired taste in most cases, but the rewards can be, in my case, sublime.

"Directory for making good music in our modern age?"
How about "Government directive for the prohibition of atonal music in our great Republic?" Punishable by imprisonment. How does that grab you?


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Is this some kind of a rant against atonal and serial music? It belies a very conservative taste in music. Some listeners apparently missed the boat when it came to atonality. It's an acquired taste in most cases, but the rewards can be, in my case, sublime.
> 
> "Directory for making good music in our modern age?"
> How about "Government directive for the prohibition of atonal music in our great Republic?" Punishable by imprisonment. How does that grab you?


Most atonal composers support communism. I will not allow myself to distract from a set direction so much as to enjoy atonality. It is true anyone can enjoy them if just let go. People has been making 5000 years of tonal music, without any problem of the exhaustion of ideas, people should be able to continue making music in this way. 5000 years VS 50 years, not a difficult choice.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

In order to expand the tonal horizon, I am seeking for world indigenous music, folk music, and classically rendered folk music. The great variety of cultural footprints adding to the early tonality creats a highly poignant emotional impact. For example: Abel Selaocoe, a South African composer bringing out his cultural-background in the classical setting. God, so beautiful. :angel:





I am almost crying.Yes, there are many good modern composers to be discovered, but I will firmly follow my own path not to be swayed by any authorities. God, what a treasure to be discovered. 
Abel Selaocoe, 55 for his only available concert on bili bili site, the third warrior has come. 
For I can not find his CD anywhere,when his CD is out, he will be an einherja.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Ariasexta said:


> Most atonal composers support communism.


Webern was a great fan of Hitler actually. And in Russia under Stalin atonality was absolutely forbidden as "decadent music".


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Yeah, maybe she talks about cultural marxists or ''moonbats''...


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

norman bates said:


> Webern was a great fan of Hitler actually. And in Russia under Stalin atonality was absolutely forbidden as "decadent music".


Nazi Germany had their own jazz band too, nazis were actually unaware about the atonal theories in music. In the open they said jazz is the worst music. Stalin banned atonality、 Shosta used atonal frequently.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Flamme said:


> Yeah, maybe she talks about cultural marxists or ''moonbats''...


Cultural marxism is hard to describe in generalization. In music, it can be said that artificial tonality simulating pre-Pythagorean tonal music from all the indigenous cultures. Try to compare Abel Selaocoes music with atonal music, they sound superfacially close but still vastly different.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

If you can access, make sure you watch the whole length of the concert.

He played some compositions by other composers intermittently between the performances of his own works. I did mistake some for his own work, but still he remains in the warrior rank. I am only afraid that he would not compose as much as a professional composer.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Schoenberg stated he never was a communist, and politics shouldn't be tied with Art. Plus atonality is such a big thing now, it's transcended any politics. American composers like Carter and Babbitt some prominent ones.

I appreciate your stand against communism though. My bro, who like me grew up in Canada and enjoyed its freedoms, is actually radicalizing into a pro-Communist.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Phil loves classical said:


> Schoenberg stated he never was a communist, and politics shouldn't be tied with Art. Plus atonality is such a big thing now, it's transcended any politics. American composers like Carter and Babbitt some prominent ones.
> 
> I appreciate your stand against communism though. My bro, who like me grew up in Canada and enjoyed its freedoms, is actually radicalizing into a pro-Communist.


I do not know, atonality just lacks the gravity to everything I want to discover, and I am afraid of its impact on everything, since it is more technical than cultural, lacking historical depth and such things seem to be naturally aggressive.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Dedicated communists are a rare breed these days, especially in Western societies. Theodorakis is one rare example, and he's certainly not atonal. 

Support of say social democrats or economical and social progression, widespread among artists in general, is not communism, but something different.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Ariasexta said:


> Nazi Germany had their own jazz band too, nazis were actually unaware about the atonal theories in music. In the open they said jazz is the worst music. Stalin banned atonality、 Shosta used atonal frequently.


Shostakovich used atonality only when Stalin died, before it was forbidden. There's no a connection between being a leftist and embracing atonality. As I've said there were composers who were openly fan of Hitler (like Webern), Mussolini (like Stravinsky or Ennio Porrino), and even composers considered conservatives like Alec Wilder who usually made very melodic music that you could appreciate like this
















used it sometimes.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

norman bates said:


> Shostakovich used atonality only when Stalin died, before it was forbidden. There's no a connection between being a leftist and embracing atonality. As I've said there were composers who were openly fan of Hitler (like Webern), Mussolini (like Stravinsky or Ennio Porrino), and even composers considered conservatives like Alec Wilder who usually made very melodic music that you could appreciate like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even being tonal soviets have some of the worst music ever like Советский Марш, horrible piece. And it is well known that many pop and rock pieces can be played in pre-Pythagorean systems, that means most modern popular music is a bloated form of the primitive music. I am sure the atonal tunings are just another bloatedness of certain classical tuning system. Like electronic guitars mostly do not play the classical octaves, just primitive modulating between short passanges, therefore once breaking down into the thematic lines, only pentatonic tunes remain. What if we break down the atonal passages? maybe we have every more primitive tonality than pentatonics?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Ariasexta said:


> Even being tonal soviets have some of the worst music ever like Советский Марш, horrible piece. And it is well known that many pop and rock pieces can be played in pre-Pythagorean systems, that means most modern popular music is a bloated form of the primitive music. I am sure the atonal tunings are just another bloatedness of certain classical tuning system. Like electronic guitars mostly do not play the classical octaves, just primitive modulating between short passanges, therefore once breaking down into the thematic lines, only pentatonic tunes remain. What if we break down the atonal passages? maybe we have every more primitive tonality than pentatonics?


there's no such a thing like atonal tunings. Tunings used for both tonal and atonal music in western music is equal temperament. 
I'm not sure what you mean with what you're saying with electronic guitars, do you mean electric guitars? And of course they play octaves, it's not like the electricity changes the intonation of the frets.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> Dedicated communists are a rare breed these days, especially in Western societies. Theodorakis is one rare example, and he's certainly not atonal.
> 
> Support of say social democrats or economical and social progression, widespread among artists in general, is not communism, but something different.


Capitalism is not far away from communism though, but communism is a more direct physical threat to everyone. Capitalism is a threat to general cultural heritages, it is corrutping people but I am not opting for communism like many disillusioned western people. Social progression is an illusion, it always needs communists to take their blames. Like Greece, which had almost perfect nationalistic democracy for 2000 years but in the course of history it has become a proxy in most recent wars. Nobody can exempt themself from the inevitable wars after all. Every social progressive movement in history releases the disease of communism and capitalism, when they claim they are pacifist. Who gains? Nobody but the riches. Perfect society is always static and in constant war with its neighbors, like Sparta and Athens, or India, Japan. It never progresses, but like music always tries to retain its historical posture through the wars only. On the other hand, social progressivity only creats more and more rich people, it is true but I am not interested in it.

It is clear there is no such thing as the social progress, there is only the choice between war and the priviledged proxy-work which tries to bargain between the two fighting forces, and then the proxies will in turn become potential causes for the future wars. The earlier we wake up to this fact the better we can alleviate the pain of war.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Ariasexta said:


> Nazi Germany had their own jazz band too, nazis were actually unaware about the atonal theories in music. In the open they said jazz is the worst music. Stalin banned atonality、 Shosta used atonal frequently.


I recommend you to read about Zhdanovism (Zhdanov as well, actually), anti-formalism, and Socialist Realism. Did that myself recently and got a pretty good overview of all the limitations Shostakovich and other Soviet artists constantly had to deal with. He was able to use serialism occassionally but, as he admitted himself, his music would have been different if he wouldn't have had to constantly deal with the set limits of socialist cultural ideology. I really doubt most atonal and avant garde composers support communism. I don't see any intrinsic or evident connection between the two - quite the opposite, in fact. I mean, _why_ should such a connection exist?


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

Ariasexta said:


> People has been making 5000 years of tonal music


Because you actually know what music what played 5000 years ago? And atonality is more than a century old know.

This thread is a wild ride.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Ariasexta said:


> Capitalism is not far away from communism though, but communism is a more direct physical threat to everyone. Capitalism is a threat to general cultural heritages, it is corrutping people but I am not opting for communism like many disillusioned western people. Social progression is an illusion, it always needs communists to take their blames. Like Greece, which had almost perfect nationalistic democracy for 2000 years but in the course of history it has become a proxy in most recent wars. Nobody can exempt themself from the inevitable wars after all. Every social progressive movement in history releases the disease of communism and capitalism, when they claim they are pacifist. Who gains? Nobody but the riches. Perfect society is always static and in constant war with its neighbors, like Sparta and Athens, or India, Japan. It never progresses, but like music always tries to retain its historical posture through the wars only. On the other hand, social progressivity only creats more and more rich people, it is true but I am not interested in it.
> 
> *It is clear there is no such thing as the social progress,*there is only the choice between war and the privileged proxy-work which tries to bargain between the two fighting forces, and then the proxies will in turn become potential causes for the future wars. The earlier we wake up to this fact the better we can alleviate the pain of war.


If you're against both capitalism and communism in general, and don't want a middle way either, Utopia is all that's left, and a disregard for our societal/material reality.

But social statistics, for instance those of my country, can all disprove your claims about social progression in a positive sense not taking place. Including those of social mobility, possibilities for the sexes, life expectancy, and the general possibilities for participation in public life, education level, levels of possible personal freedom and options to choose in life, rights of expression, dynamics in government etc. etc.

There's a lot of social inequality, slavery and dictatorship taking place around the Globe even today, but this doesn't mean that the social progression isn't an option, or taking place on a massive, measurable scale, with many countries being positive examples. Right now, the virus thing, and also a general, authoritarian trend, working against democratic principles, has pressured the positive development, but chances are good that it will become very strong again.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> If you're against both capitalism and communism in general, and don't want a middle way either, Utopia is all that's left, and a disregard for our societal/material reality.
> 
> But social statistics, for instance those of my country, can all disprove your claims about social progression in a positive sense not taking place. Including those of social mobility, possibilities for the sexes, life expectancy, and the general possibilities for participation in public life, education level, levels of possible personal freedom and options to choose in life, rights of expression, dynamics in government etc. etc.
> 
> There's a lot of social inequality, slavery and dictatorship taking place around the Globe even today, but this doesn't mean that the social progression isn't an option, or taking place on a massive, measurable scale, with many countries being positive examples. Right now, the virus thing, and also a general, authoritarian trend, working against democratic principles, has pressured the positive development, but chances are good that it will become very strong again.


It is true that democracy has shown people can be wildly divergent in ideology, Plato has a famous quote:" Democracy leads to anarchy, which is mob rule." Platonism is actually about the rule of law not democracy. When you empower people with too much money, they will just become commies, not charitable angels. We can say today many famous american oligarchs openly support and praise communism. I must appreciate their honesty which is a huge enlightenment for me.

Capitalism is very much a direct product of colonialism, while communism is the self-colonialization by the technological means. The problem is that most western intellects tell the world we need to go for communism if disillusioned with capitalism. Hum, nope.

The third way is clearly the cultural revitalization with rigorous and constant theological catechism and politicing. This just has begun and it is exciting, no less so than in the 15th century when the discovery of the World and Renaissance began.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Kilgore Trout said:


> Because you actually know what music what played 5000 years ago? And atonality is more than a century old know.
> 
> This thread is a wild ride.


It is based on Platos praise of Egyptian music, for Platos is the conservative superman and guess the music was very spirited and delightful.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Ariasexta said:


> I.
> 
> The third way is clearly the cultural revitalization with rigorous and constant theological catechism and politicing. This is just has begun and it is exciting, no less so than the 15th century when the discovery of the World and Renaissance began.


Sounds really exciting if only one knew what on earth it meant!


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Culture is the key to unlock an answer of the third way, I am no Nazi. But what I am envisioning is unprecedented at least to the publicly known history, and not apparent to myself too, but the vibe it gives me also become contagious with people who read my posts. I am no ordinary chinese, to disguise further is hypocritical.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Handelian said:


> Sounds really exciting if only one knew what on earth it meant!


Retrospection with utmost respect and humility, this is the start. I do not know what is ahead but it is exciting all the time. Atlantis is not a fable. I believe by retrospective discoveries will can creat the third way of development. Now we are stucked with pseudosciences controlled by leftist authorities.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Ariasexta said:


> It is true that democracy has shown people can be wildly divergent in ideology, Plato has a famous quote:" Democracy leads to anarchy, which is mob rule." Platonism is actually about the rule of law not democracy. When you empower people with too much money, they will just become commies, not charitable angels.


If it's true, they don't know anything about Marx theories. And I mean, it's clear that there are a lot of rich psycopath dictators and regimes around the world that consider themselves "communists", but for what I know communism was about equality. There could be a lot of discussion about how communism has been implemented (very often in failed way), but the idea of being against a world where there are a few extremely rich persons and a huge amount of people often in wars because they have to fight to have food and water does not seem that evil to me.



Ariasexta said:


> We can say today many famous american oligarchs openly support and praise communism. I must appreciate their honesty which is a huge enlightenment for me.


I can't think of anybody (names?) but if true, those don't have even a basic understanding of what they are praising, since communism would take all their richness and distribute it to poor people.



Ariasexta said:


> Capitalism is very much a direct product of colonialism, while communism is the self-colonialization by the technological means. The problem is that most western intellects tell the world we need to go for communism if disillusioned with capitalism. Hum, nope.
> 
> The third way is clearly the cultural revitalization with rigorous and constant theological catechism and politicing. This just has begun and it is exciting, no less so than in the 15th century when the discovery of the World and Renaissance began.


this third way is horrible. The damage organized religions have done to the world in every possible way (from murders of tons of people to just neurosis to obscurantism) is not exactly what I would consider something that could improve the world. And what you call pseudoscience is often based on religion. For instance one of the most popular radios in italy, "radio maria" a catholic (but against the pope, because he's too progressive for them) radio, is promoting a lot of conspiracy theories about covid and vaccines.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

It is just about groping the way with dimmest faintest light, almost in the midnight darkness, isnt it exciting? because I do not know what is ahead maybe demons or angels, I just keep going this way. Nazi offers a definitive answer accompanied with bullets, but I only can show you the way but what you will find is up to your own destiny and will be your own property for ever. This is the best description of my ideology, everybody just go on their own way, find their own destiny. I am on the retrospective way with a firm directory balcon set on the present, the future is of no importance.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

> this third way is horrible. The damage organized religions have done to the world in every possible way (from murders of tons of people to just neurosis to obscurantism) is not exactly what I would consider something that could improve the world.


What we know about the history is mostly from other peoples mouth. Communism is the set path given, we do not have a choice if we do not find the third way ourself. Being rich is for the proxies only, and then majority people will be destined for struggling between themselves. However, it may sound distracting the musical topic, musical theories have been translated into 
real life guidelines for me.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Letting others telling you what to do is robbing your own best property, I am not telling what to do at all. As we find our own paths, we also become distant between us, and each one becomes brighter through the darkness, and then the peace will be realized within the space with specific truth to each one of us. This is the third way, undefinite in literary means, only acts as a powerful personal motivation, no body is at command, but God. I am not the creator of the path but the watcher of it, like saying: look at the stars. Music is eternally between us, filling the world, tells the messages all we need. Outside music, everything is mystery.

Poetry and art is the only respective way to send messages beyond the void of culture and space, people let themself to be taugh on books and analyticals is making themself into slaves. 
We need art to be free from the world of lies.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Ariasexta said:


> It is just about groping the way with dimmest faintest light, almost in the midnight darkness, isnt it exciting? because I do not know what is ahead maybe demons or angels, I just keep going this way. Nazi offers a definitive answer accompanied with bullets, but I only can show you the way


ok, I'm not sure if you're aware of this but you sound ridiculously full of yourself, if you consider yourself a sort messiah or prophet. I don't have a big sympathy for narcissists. Even less for religion.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

norman bates said:


> ok, I'm not sure if you're aware of this but you sound ridiculously full of yourself, if you consider yourself a sort messiah or prophet. I don't have a big sympathy for narcissists. *Even less for religion.*


Must confess that reading about life under Stalin has not made me particularly sympathetic to atheism either. You might at least give a balanced appraisal.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Handelian said:


> Must confess that reading about life under Stalin has not made me particularly sympathetic to atheism either. You might at least give a balanced appraisal.


Stalin was a psychopath, he wasn't like the poster child of atheists and agnostics. Actually the fact that people who aren't able to have empathy are allowed to occupy places of political power is a big problem of our societies.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Coming from a country which was only a bit over 20 years ago a part of Soviet union, I can say you that it’s not such a bliss at all. Luckily I was born after Estonia had gained independence.

Why do you think it has been so often poorly implemented? I would say it has never been correctly implemented by Western societies and probably never will - it’s an utopian ideology which assumes total selflessness, lack of individual ambition. The idea is beautiful and everything but it’s practicality is very deeply questionable and I don’t see how societal development would happen in a true communist society where there is no competition characteristic to capitalism. Of course it has been argued that human nature is not in a conflict with communist ideology but most of these theories of universal altruism etc are somewhat utopian as well.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

annaw said:


> Coming from a country which was only a bit over 20 years ago a part of Soviet union, I can say you that it's not such a bliss at all. Luckily I was born after Estonia had gained independence.


I'm sure you're right about it not being a bliss at all. And I can see what the regimes are still doing around the world, even the so called "communists".


annaw said:


> Why do you think it has been so often poorly implemented?


well, one reason is the one I've said above, crazy psychopaths in position of political power. And a dictator who enjoys all kind of luxuries while his country is starving clearly has nothing to do with with the idea of equality.



annaw said:


> I would say it has never been correctly implemented by Western societies and probably never will - it's an utopian ideology which assumes total selflessness, lack of individual ambition. The idea is beautiful and everything but it's practicality is very deeply questionable and I don't see how societal development would happen in a true communist society where there is no competition characteristic to capitalism. Of course it has been argued that human nature is not in a conflict with communist ideology but most of these theories of universal altruism etc are somewhat utopian as well.


I think I can agree with what you're saying again.
I was just arguing about the fact that super rich people can praise communism, which is a joke.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

norman bates said:


> Stalin was a psychopath, he wasn't like the poster child of atheists and agnostics. Actually the fact that people who aren't able to have empathy are allowed to occupy places of political power is a big problem of our societies.


This is always the excuse for double standards.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

norman bates said:


> ok, I'm not sure if you're aware of this but you sound ridiculously full of yourself, if you consider yourself a sort messiah or prophet. I don't have a big sympathy for narcissists. Even less for religion.


I know it would sound messianic, however, it is the only way not to become a commie. In order to not to be a part of this so called destiny or the progress of history, I am willing to become anything or even nothingness, completely annihilated along with all the footprints of my existence in the universe. My repulsion toward communism is indeed messianic, thanks for your complement. So, will anyone follow me ?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Handelian said:


> This is always the excuse for double standards.


Fair enough, I think you're right. What I wanted to say is that I think that a sane person would not make persecutions or murders of religious groups in the name of atheism or agnosticism.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

annaw said:


> Coming from a country which was only a bit over 20 years ago a part of Soviet union, I can say you that it's not such a bliss at all. Luckily I was born after Estonia had gained independence.
> 
> Why do you think it has been so often poorly implemented? I would say it has never been correctly implemented by Western societies and probably never will - it's an utopian ideology which assumes total selflessness, lack of individual ambition. The idea is beautiful and everything but it's practicality is very deeply questionable and I don't see how societal development would happen in a true communist society where there is no competition characteristic to capitalism. Of course it has been argued that human nature is not in a conflict with communist ideology but most of these theories of universal altruism etc are somewhat utopian as well.


Eastern Europe at least enjoys some compensations after the dissolvement of USSR, but the relative poverty will pit E EU within the old dilemma again with a new commie proxy : China. However, the flourishing of modern music from E EU is something noteworthy, I can not lose regard to composers like Arvo Paert and Abel Selaocoe(S african though). Chinese people is still under this whole old smelly mess. People might still think CMIsm can be abated in form or reformed to become better, no, no, no. Never again, I can not be clearer that cmism will never change: Das is die Ewigkeit.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

I will not become a philosopher, but forever a musician, I use all the ideas unto music. All the messianic messages we need are always in the air since the beginning of history, like Pythagoras said: Harmony is everywhere. People with wings will wake up on their own to the call of the stars, they do not need teachers tell them what to do. And I am the watcher and listener, maybe can sing a few songs to them.


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

Ariasexta said:


> it is the only way not to become a commie.


I'm sorry to be the one to break the news for you, but the Cold war has been over for 30 years now.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Kilgore Trout said:


> I'm sorry to be the one to break the news for you, but the Cold war has been over for 30 years now.


No, the worst is coming, but people is being awakened, just join in.


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

Ariasexta said:


> No, the worst is coming, but people is being awakened, just join in.


Do you actually believe the main problem our world faces today is good ol' Marx-inspired communism?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Some of the most dangerous people in the world are those who believe that they have seen the truth and the solution to the world's ills which few others see . They are usually wrong and end up replacing one set of problems with another, bigger set. Also it is generally the case that the younger they are, the more deluded the 'truth'.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Kilgore Trout said:


> Do you actually believe the main problem our world faces today is good ol' Marx-inspired communism?


not communism, but CCP is no doubt dangerous. People also underestimated Putin and Obama laughed at Russia as regional power. After Trump, brexit and couple other things where Putin was involved, they do not laugh any longer. And CCP is more powerful than Putin and it has a clear long term strategy to defeat the west. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...d3bee8-13f7-11e8-9570-29c9830535e5_story.html


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Kilgore Trout said:


> Do you actually believe the main problem our world faces today is good ol' Marx-inspired communism?


And the humiliation of majority people under all kinds systems, I find that people around the world seem to experience a lot of humiliations and the solution is also the same: to get more money. However, I am not saying going rampage, it is about how to deal with social reality and finally come togather, across systematical and cultural differences.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Becca said:


> Some of the most dangerous people in the world are those who believe that they have seen the truth and the solution to the world's ills which few others see . They are usually wrong and end up replacing one set of problems with another, bigger set. Also it is generally the case that the younger they are, the more deluded the 'truth'.


Unfortunately we do not have many choices today, true that my ideas can be dangerous so I share it indiscriminately. In case some worse people thought up and take to destruction.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Jacck said:


> not communism, but CCP is no doubt dangerous. People also underestimated Putin and Obama laughed at Russia as regional power. After Trump, brexit and couple other things where Putin was involved, they do not laugh any longer. And CCP is more powerful than Putin and it has a clear long term strategy to defeat the west.
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...d3bee8-13f7-11e8-9570-29c9830535e5_story.html


Bankers surely want some wars, they need wars and their proxies will comply.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Ariasexta said:


> Bankers surely want some wars, they need wars and their proxies will comply.


if there will be a World War 3, my bet would be that it is going to start between India and China, and the primary reason will be fight over the Himalayan glaciers and rivers that start there.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

norman bates said:


> I'm sure you're right about it not being a bliss at all. And I can see what the regimes are still doing around the world, even the so called "communists".
> 
> well, one reason is the one I've said above, crazy psychopaths in position of political power. And a dictator who enjoys all kind of luxuries while his country is starving clearly has nothing to do with with the idea of equality.
> 
> ...


To some, not knowing much about for example social democratic movements,_ any_ attempt at, philanthropy towards, or appraisal of, directed, social reforms and/or progressive policies, must simply be loathsome ideas from "commies". This is seen for example in current right-wing tendencies in the US, and among some Trumpist conspiracy-imagining people, such as towards George Soros or Bill Gates. It's absurd, of course. But I won't digress the thread any further into the specified politics area.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Ariasexta said:


> Most atonal composers support communism.


That's absurd! Just ask Gyorgy Ligeti, in whose communist country serial music was outlawed!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Ariasexta said:


> ...I will not allow myself to distract from a set direction so much as to enjoy atonality. It is true anyone can enjoy them if just let go. People has been making 5000 years of tonal music, without any problem of the exhaustion of ideas, people should be able to continue making music in this way. 5000 years VS 50 years, not a difficult choice.


Speak for yourself only. What absurd hubris!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Ariasexta said:


> I do not know, atonality just lacks the gravity to everything I want to discover, and I am afraid of its impact on everything, since it is more technical than cultural, lacking historical depth and such things seem to be naturally aggressive.


Aggressive? If you feel threatened by atonality, that's your own problem.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

norman bates said:


> ok, I'm not sure if you're aware of this but you sound ridiculously full of yourself, if you consider yourself a sort messiah or prophet. I don't have a big sympathy for narcissists. Even less for religion.


Knowing his background, I sympathize with Ariasexta. The CCP's hold on their people's minds and perception is stronger than iron. It really is like some messianic journey or pilgrimage to break free of its hold.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I think its a ''she''...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Phil loves classical said:


> Knowing his background, I sympathize with Ariasexta. The CCP's hold on their people's minds and perception is stronger than iron. It really is like some messianic journey or pilgrimage to break free of its hold.


Yes I know and I can understand that. Altough I'm not entirely sure he's really chinese, since I think it's at least quite peculiar that a person from China is talking of defending our western values since the western world is not his own world. Also, I thought that chinese people had some problem talking like this on internet exactly because of censorship, but I could be wrong.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Flamme said:


> I think its a ''she''...


Whoops, sorry.



norman bates said:


> Yes I know and I can understand that. Altough I'm not entirely sure he's really chinese, since I think it's at least quite peculiar that a person from China is talking of defending our western values since the western world is not his own world. Also, I thought that chinese people had some problem talking like this on internet exactly because of censorship, but I could be wrong.


Even before he/she said he/she was Chinese, I already suspected it by his/her patterns of speech actually, being of the background myself. It's inconceivable to me with this pandemic, they've actually gone on the offense, acting as if they (CCP) are the ones being persecuted. I'm hearing it from my own ma (due to language barriers, whose only means of the news is the Chinese newspaper here in Toronto) and bro. They are taking zero responsibility for it. A mistake costing millions of lives, and they are persecuting their own people who say otherwise.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Phil loves classical said:


> Knowing his background, I sympathize with Ariasexta. The CCP's hold on their people's minds and perception is stronger than iron. It really is like some messianic journey or pilgrimage to break free of its hold.


Well, a religiously inspired or mysticist 'counter-spirit' was a strong force with oppositional or quasi-oppositional Eastern Block musicians and artists like Yudina and the later Gubaidulina, Schnittke, Silvestrov, Artyomov, Penderecki, Petr Eben, Lubos Fiser and Andrei Tarkovsky, for example. Partly as a reaction to a secularization and authoritarianism in society, and disappointment with it. But a new, religiously coloured, authoritarian culture is unlikely to solve any felt frustrations in the long run, at least in countries with a thriving democratic life.

Btw, regarding Westernness, religious life in China is more differentiated than others maybe think, plus of course there are many studying connections to the West. Also, if the OP is really Chinese and disappointed with Communism, I see certain traits of old Chinese philosophy and cultural traditions in the expressed views.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

norman bates said:


> Yes I know and I can understand that. Altough I'm not entirely sure he's really chinese, since I think it's at least quite peculiar that a person from China is talking of defending our western values since the western world is not his own world. Also, I thought that chinese people had some problem talking like this on internet exactly because of censorship, but I could be wrong.


not all people in China are brainwashed by the CCP ideology, there are dissidents and dissenters. The western values of freedom and democracy have appeal to many opressed people in the world and they are universal. I remeber that during communism people were listening to "Voice of America" or "Radio Free Europe". That is why it is so disheartening to observe how the USA is slipping towards authoritarianism. Because then it will be one less country in the world to opose the tyrants and authoritarians. The fight is not between east and west, but between people and the tyrants/oligarchs.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

If she is chinese she certainly has her way with words...Never saw something like this...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Jacck said:


> not all people in China are brainwashed by the CCP ideology, there are dissidents and dissenters.


I know that, I think everybody sees what's happening in Hong Kong. I'm not sure they are able to discuss like this on western board.



Jacck said:


> The western values of freedom and democracy have appeal to many opressed people in the world and they are universal.


The thing is that he's not pushing for freedom and democracy, but basically for state religion and integralism. Which is basically another kind of oppression.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

norman bates said:


> Yes I know and I can understand that. Altough I'm not entirely sure he's really chinese, since *I think it's at least quite peculiar that a person from China is talking of defending our western values* since the western world is not his own world. Also, I thought that chinese people had some problem talking like this on internet exactly because of censorship, but I could be wrong.


Poppycock! "Western values" include atonal music, John Cage, and writing /listening to any kind of music we want!

No, you're not wrong: people in China get thrown in prison if they criticize the government on line! It's a dictatorship, with little regard for personal rights and freedoms!

It wouldn't surprise me if the Chinese government discourages atonal music, and this person is simply parroting that policy!


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Jacck said:


> if there will be a World War 3, my bet would be that it is going to start between India and China, and the primary reason will be fight over the Himalayan glaciers and rivers that start there.


India can defeat China, India defeated mongols soundly during 13th century, not even like Japan using magical kamikaze but with all-round scientifical military might. So, an Indo-China cause is impossible. Only proxy controlled countries will lose to China.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Phil loves classical said:


> Whoops, sorry.
> 
> Even before he/she said he/she was Chinese, I already suspected it by his/her patterns of speech actually, being of the background myself. *It's inconceivable to me with this pandemic, they've actually gone on the offense, acting as if they (CCP) are the ones being persecuted. I'm hearing it from my own ma (due to language barriers, whose only means of the news is the Chinese newspaper here in Toronto) and bro. They are taking zero responsibility for it. A mistake costing millions of lives, and they are persecuting their own people who say otherwise.*


Well, maybe in the beginning...Then from what I saw, they tried to amend, by helping many countries in distress, like Italy..


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I think you'll struggle a lot to find any thriving examples of atonal composers in China, though there might be a few 'underground' ones. But as I see it, those stylistic traits are also hard to assimilate to the general, musical Chinese taste. With increased modernity, urbanization trends and globalist exchanges, I might have missed the most recent developments in certain sub-cultures or academic circles there, though.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Ariasexta said:


> India can defeat China, India defeated mongols soundly during 13th century, not even like Japan using magical kamikaze but with all-round scientifical military might. So, an Indo-China cause is impossible. Only proxy controlled countries will lose to China.


Well thats kinda...Unpatriotic? I dont think life is SO bad in china, mainland or elsewhere...


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

norman bates said:


> Yes I know and I can understand that. Altough I'm not entirely sure he's really chinese, since I think it's at least quite peculiar that a person from China is talking of defending our western values since the western world is not his own world. Also, I thought that chinese people had some problem talking like this on internet exactly because of censorship, but I could be wrong.


I see everything I like as mine, not as a chinese. I think every person in the world has the right to claim planet Earth themself only if they are freed from capital-communist puppetry. I do not care if I got caught and killed tomorrow for what I express. The devine right should go beyond the congressional rights, it is a joke to legalize devinity with a congress. Every man under the law of God is a rightful heir to all the planet, before they become a puppet to the betrayers of people. Amazon forest does not belong to Brazil only, not to the corporations, but to all free humans. When we sell ourself to capital-commies, we lost the right to nature.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Flamme said:


> Well thats kinda...Unpatriotic? I dont think life is SO bad in china, mainland or elsewhere...


Cmies are not even a legal constitutional body, they were legalized by internationalists, chinese are forced to accept them.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

All free humans are one mind, one faith, no matter where they settle away from each other in terms of linear and spaciotemporal distances. If I am gone tomorrow, someone will still uphold the ideal. Mongol did not conquer the world because of them, we are real.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Ariasexta said:


> Cmies are not even a legal constitutional body, they were legalized by internationalists, chinese are forced to accept them.


Huh? :lol: Where'd that come from?


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> I think you'll struggle a lot to find any thriving examples of atonal composers in China, though there might be a few 'underground' ones. But as I see it, those stylistic traits are also hard to assimilate to the general, musical Chinese taste. With increased modernity, urbanization trends and globalist exchanges, I might have missed the most recent developments in certain sub-cultures or academic circles there, though.


Subculture is a codename for stupidity, ignore it. I actually love original pentatonic and other primitive tonal music as well. Pythagoras is still the Rex Musicae anyway. There are many asian composers which specialize in traditional tonalities using western or tradiitonal instruments, but not all traditional instruments appeal to me. I prefer tradiitonal music played on western instrument more. For example the 12女子乐坊, I do not know how to translate the name, it is a band specializing in traditional music in old tonality played on traditional instruments. But they are not my favorite chinese music, my favorite is zhuang ethnic music.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Phil loves classical said:


> Huh? :lol: Where'd that come from?


The Yalta gang, Stalin, Churchill, Roosevelt and the forces behind them.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ariasexta said:


> ...For example the 12女子乐坊, I do not know how to translate the name, it is a band specializing in traditional music in old tonality played on traditional instruments...


Looks like "Twelve Women's Music."


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Ariasexta said:


> *Subculture is a codename for stupidity,* ignore it. I actually love original pentatonic and other primitive tonal music as well. Pythagoras is still the Rex Musicae anyway. There are many asian composers which specialize in traditional tonalities using western or tradiitonal instruments, but not all traditional instruments appeal to me. I prefer tradiitonal music played on western instrument more. For example the 12女子乐坊, I do not know how to translate the name, it is a band specializing in traditional music in old tonality played on traditional instruments. But they are not my favorite chinese music, my favorite is zhuang ethnic music.


Well, the opposite would be a monoculture, by definition conform.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Ariasexta said:


> I see everything I like as mine, not as a chinese. I think every person in the world has the right to claim planet Earth themself only if they are freed from capital-communist puppetry. I do not care if I got caught and killed tomorrow for what I express. The devine right should go beyond the congressional rights, it is a joke to legalize devinity with a congress. Every man under the law of God is a rightful heir to all the planet, before they become a puppet to the betrayers of people. Amazon forest does not belong to Brazil only, not to the corporations, but to all free humans. When we sell ourself to capital-commies, we lost the right to nature.


ok but in my opinion you could choose definitely better things than the most intolerant and reactionary side of it


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Ariasexta said:


> The Yalta gang, Stalin, Churchill, Roosevelt and the forces behind them.


Dont wanna dwell too much into history/politics but what could they have done, attack millions strong determined and battle hardened Commmunist army with great support of chinese masses...Idk...


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Ariasexta said:


> I see everything I like as mine, not as a chinese. I think every person in the world has the right to claim planet Earth themself only if they are freed from capital-communist puppetry. I do not care if I got caught and killed tomorrow for what I express. The devine right should go beyond the congressional rights, it is a joke to legalize devinity with a congress. Every man under the law of God is a rightful heir to all the planet, before they become a puppet to the betrayers of people. Amazon forest does not belong to Brazil only, not to the corporations, but to all free humans. When we sell ourself to capital-commies, we lost the right to nature.


Just not practical. You are saying what the problems are, but without suggesting any sort of solution. The Wild West was like that utopia you're painting.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Ariasexta said:


> I see everything I like as mine, not as a chinese. I think every person in the world has the right to claim planet Earth themself only if they are freed from capital-communist puppetry.* I do not care if I got caught and killed tomorrow for what I express. *The devine right should go beyond the congressional rights, it is a joke to legalize devinity with a congress. Every man under the law of God is a rightful heir to all the planet, before they become a puppet to the betrayers of people. Amazon forest does not belong to Brazil only, not to the corporations, but to all free humans. When we sell ourself to capital-commies, we lost the right to nature.


Why in the world and by whom...I think you are just fine here.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Phil loves classical said:


> Just not practical. You are saying what the problems are, but without suggesting any sort of solution. The Wild West was like that utopia you're painting.


Solution for issues connected with human nature should never be apparent, it is a deep-rooted problem. However, I can propose some new historical perspective: Knowing the present. There are two major obstacles: 1-False history;2-False futurism. We always see our present from these two grounds which are themself shaky and false.

The futurism should be more critically reviewed than any past infamous histories, even if we can reasonably sketch long term plans or like some thousand year projects. This historiological method also applies to making modern music, but most people are prejudiced against early music, they always choose the lie themselves, such case may also happen to general historiological perception of majority people. Artistic ideals, metaphysical ambiguities therefore are the foremost ways to convey the truth of human nature and its underlying weaknesses. Of course, never expect quick solutions, we must invest all our energy onto it and wait for it to change for itself.


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