# MEZZO/CONTRALTO TOURNAMENT (Round 1, Match 6): Ludwig vs Thebom



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Christa Ludwig, Germany, 1928-2021






Blanche Thebom, USA, 1915-2010






'Seit er von dir geschieden' from Wagner's _Gotterdammerung_.

Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I simply cannot imagine the mystery, fear, urgency and tragedy of this remarkable passage captured better than it is in the voice of Christa Ludwig. Here she surpasses in nuance even her earlier recording of Waltraute under Solti. Thebom is very good, but she is up against greatness.

After the awed silence passes, I'm always moved by this passage to reflect on how much of the _Ring_'s meaning it encapsulates. Nowhere in the tetralogy is Wotan more present, and more simultaneously godly and human, than here, where the music reaches both backward and forward to bridge the two great tragedies that define him: his sacrifice of Brunnhilde, the best part of himself, and his bestowal upon her of the status of a human woman, and his ultimate obliteration in the fire of his own hero's funeral pyre, which expiates his sins and frees the world for humans to make of it what they can without divine intervention.

By some alchemy Wagner makes music communicate all this. I wonder about it what Verdi supposedly asked about _Tristan:_ how could a human being compose such a thing? As Jean-Luc Picard says: "To boldly go where no one has gone before..."


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Beethoven once said of Rossini's _Barbiere di Siviglia_"It will be played so long as Italian opera will exist." I feel much the same about Ludwig's recorded legacy; although she passed away recently, her recordings will be listened to and enjoyed for as long as opera recordings exist.

At the very least, they will be listened to so long as I have access to them, but this rather less romantic of a sentiment.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> I simply cannot imagine the mystery, fear, urgency and tragedy of this remarkable passage captured better than it is in the voice of Christa Ludwig. Here she surpasses in nuance even her earlier recording of Waltraute under Solti. *Thebom is very good, but she is up against greatness*.
> 
> After the awed silence passes, I'm always moved by this passage to reflect on how much of the _Ring_'s meaning it encapsulates. Nowhere in the tetralogy is Wotan more present, and more simultaneously godly and human, than here, where the music reaches both backward and forward to bridge the two great tragedies that define him: his sacrifice of Brunnhilde, the best part of himself, and his bestowal upon her of the status of a human woman, and his ultimate obliteration in the fire of his own hero's funeral pyre, which expiates his sins and frees the world for humans to make of it what they can without divine intervention.
> 
> By some alchemy Wagner makes music communicate all this. I wonder about it what Verdi supposedly asked about _Tristan:_ how could a human being compose such a thing? As Jean-Luc Picard says: "To boldly go where no one has gone before..."


He wrote EVERYTHING! Christa (with Maria, Rene & Jessye) are my most beloved opera singers and I will write nothing more for the MYTHOS Ludwig. (Respect to Blanche! She is AMAZING in this video. Better than many native German singers.)


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Is there any particular reason why there are hardly ever any singers of today's generation to compare voices to?
Much of the comparison studies are either from not well known singers or before the year 2000.
Just curious - not complaining.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

We just had Rachvelishvili in a comparison. And there was one with Sierra and Damrau not too long ago as well. Modern singers are included in the tournaments, but the also tend to lose in the first round, so then there aren't any for the rest of the tournament. We've had Kaufmann, Gheorghiu, Florez, Fleming, Lucic, Tezier, Kelsey, Netrebko, Goerke, Stemme, and more. As for not very well known singers, personally I think it's fun to have a mix of famous stars and hidden gems. One also has to take into account who has recorded what. Some famous singers have idiosyncratic discographies. And lastly, Bonetan does a really good job of making people's requests happen. I assume the balance reflects the overall interests and tastes of CT at the moment, at least of the members who have made requests.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

viva:
You make me sound like some kind of ungrateful poster when in fact I rejoice at the time and dedication Bonetan takes to the work involved. More than once I have expressed my gratitude to Bonetan.
I'm truly sorry if my query came out more like a complaint than a curiosity because I was not criticizing, just observing a discrepancy between the 20's, 30's, 40's singers and the 2000 singers is all.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Not my intention to imply any judgment of your question, just noting that I see things a little differently.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Thebom puts up a performance that would make any modern singer pale in comparison, but Ludwig is miraculous. With such authority and feeling she makes shivers go up and down my spine.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

nina foresti said:


> Is there any particular reason why there are hardly ever any singers of today's generation to compare voices to?
> Much of the comparison studies are either from not well known singers or before the year 2000.
> Just curious - not complaining.


The main reason is because of how abysmally modern singers perform in the matchups. I try to include our premiere modern singers in each tournament, but I don't think a single one has advanced past the first round, and to include more of them would take spots from singers who have an opportunity to advance. I'd love to receive more requests involving modern singers and I try to put them in as many bonus matchups as I can, but the truth is they don't have the skills to do damage in the tournaments.

Along those lines, when we get through with the soloists I'm thinking of going back and showing how each generation of singers has performed in the matchups. Would that be of interest? If so I'm open to suggestions of how I should break that down. By decade? 25 year periods?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Thanks Bonetan for your explanation because it made me feel that my question was really not so off base at all -- that there was some logic to it.
I'd be tickled with anything you'd like to do in comparative choices. I love this stuff so as long as you are willing to put in all the time and effort, you have here a very willing poster to enjoy them.:tiphat:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

They both bring different things to the playing field. Vocally they are both really wonderful. Blanch Thebom has the upper hand down low. She really sounds like a contralto down low. Her voice is equally as beautiful as Ludwig. Where Ludwig trumps is her voice is very distinctive sounding and I value that a lot. Blanche is a great interpreter but I thought Ludwig really possessed a magical ability to interpret. She made me feel along with her singing. Ludwig wins but Thebom would be by far the greatest mezzo in the world today.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

nina foresti said:


> Thanks Bonetan for your explanation because it made me feel that my question was really not so off base at all -- that there was some logic to it.
> I'd be tickled with anything you'd like to do in comparative choices. I love this stuff so as long as you are willing to put in all the time and effort, you have here a very willing poster to enjoy them.:tiphat:


No worries!

If you've got any active singers you'd like to hear in comparison go ahead and rattle off some names here and I'll figure out the rest. I wouldn't mind doing 8 singer tournaments with only active singers if the people are interested


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> The main reason is because of how abysmally modern singers perform in the matchups. I try to include our premiere modern singers in each tournament, but I don't think a single one has advanced past the first round, and to include more of them would take spots from singers who have an opportunity to advance. I'd love to receive more requests involving modern singers and I try to put them in as many bonus matchups as I can, but the truth is they don't have the skills to do damage in the tournaments.
> 
> Along those lines, when we get through with the soloists I'm thinking of going back and showing how each generation of singers has performed in the matchups. Would that be of interest? If so I'm open to suggestions of how I should break that down. By decade? 25 year periods?


Only Rossini tenors and counter tenors are better today in my opinion. And we have Dimash, but he isn't an opera singer. I only care about singers from the last century for the most part.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Bonetan said:


> Along those lines, when we get through with the soloists I'm thinking of going back and showing how each generation of singers has performed in the matchups. Would that be of interest? If so I'm open to suggestions of how I should break that down. By decade? 25 year periods?


I would find that interesting. I think birth dates by decade would be a good way to break it down.



Bonetan said:


> the truth is they don't have the skills to do damage in the tournaments.


Ha! I like this way of putting it.

As for the matchup, I really like both, such that I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. I ended up voting for Thebom because I just really like her voice and how well coordinated it is, and there were moments in the Ludwig recording where a sort of shaky thing would happen and I found that kind of distracting. Still, overall Ludwig was excellent and I think she deserves the praise others have given her here. Her interpretation was excellent.

Btw, Thebom's teacher was the great Margarete Matzenauer, who could sing both contralto and soprano and during her career (which included Bayreuth and the Met) sang all three of Waltraute, Erda, and Brunnhilde.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

I was pleasantly surpised by Thebom's performance. I only ever heard her in a short performance of a Don Giovanni duet with Pinza on Youtube and in Furtwangler's Tristan. I remember being left a bit disappointed by her Brangäne. But she was clearly a great artist and her recording of Waltraute proves it. I nearly voted for her. But I simply adore Ludwig's voice. It is splendid and very expressive, and she clearly knew how to use it. How fitting that this match-up is presented to us one month to the day since her passing. Two great giants of the operatic stage! How I wish I could hear them both in the theatre....


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

vivalagentenuova said:


> ... and there were moments in the Ludwig recording where a sort of shaky thing would happen and I found that kind of distracting.


Is the shaky thing you mentionned a vocal defect or is it a problem with the recording? Because I did hear what sounded like the splutter of a mic (if one can say such a thing) and I wanna know if we heard the same thing.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> I wonder about it what Verdi supposedly asked about _Tristan:_ how could a human being compose such a thing?


Yeah, look at his eyes at 4:10 - _"how could a human being compose such a thing?"_


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Thebom is really wonderful, but Ludwig is something else. With, it has to be said, Karajan's sensitive accompaniment, she is much more emotionally and dramatically involved. I don't know how I can explain it other than to say that one feels something really important has been imparted. Ludwig gets my vote.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

This isn't a contest.

N.


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