# HELDENTENOR TOURNAMENT (Round 1, Match 3): Windgassen vs Kaufmann



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Wolfgang Windgassen, Germany, 1914-1974






Jonas Kaufmann, Germany, 1969-






'Amfortas! Die Wunde' from Wagner's _Parsifal_.

Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Out of my realm so I will simply choose the voice that appeals to me most. Kaufmann


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I like Windgassen and I know that almost all of you will stick up your nose at me, but I prefer Kaufmann. I think his voice is very beautiful, he acts well, he is dreamy looking. He holds my attention much better than Windgassen. I think the start of this is some of the most emotional and distinctive sounding music in opera.It is bewitching. Can I have a date with the conductor, by the way. Mercy me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Listening to Windgassen, I often wonder how the voice I'm hearing managed to withstand Wagnerian rigors over the course of his career. The fact that it did made him a valuable artist during years when few tenors could be found to take on the heaviest roles. I guess there are even some people who find his peculiar chewed, mouthy tone and lack of a legato line attractive. Myself, I put up with the lack of sheer vocal richness and sensuous appeal when he immerses himself in a role and shows what an artist he can be, as he does in Bayreuth recordings of _Tristan_ and _Tannhauser,_ and in the studio in Solti's _Ring. _ Unfortunately I don't hear that spark being lit at this concert.

Kaufmann is far superior in every respect, vocally and artistically. I heard his whole Parsifal in a Met broadcast some years back (you know, the one where everyone goes skinny dipping in raspberry Koolaid), and thought it was as fine as any I'd heard outside of Vickers and Melchior. It's nice that we get a bit more of the scene here, too, up to the point where Parsifal tells Kundry decisively that he isn't having her mother act and pink handcuffs.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Why are there only two points for Kaufmann when three of us prefer him so far? Did someone click the wrong name? Can this be fixed? If not, would the next person who prefers Windgassen be so kind as to click on Kaufmann in order to correct the balance?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Kaufmann for me. I prefer the actual sound of his voice and he is much more dramatically involved. I think I might actually prefer him in German opera to Italian too, though I do llike his Radames on the Pappano recording. In fact he and Pappano are the only reasons I keep that recording in my collection. When it comes to this comparison, I pretty much agree with everything Woodduck says.

It's good, for once, to be voting for a contemporary singer over someone from the past, though I note that so far, Kaufmann isn't garnering many votes, which rather surprises me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I wonder if the preference for Windgassen so far (6 to 3, though it should have been 5 to 4 if one of us hadn't accidentally clicked on the wrong name) has to do with loyalty to the first tenor to have recorded Parsifal and Siegfried complete. Until 1962 the only complete _Parsifal_ was the 1951 Bayreuth, and Solti's _Ring_ contained the only complete _Siegfried_ till Karajan's came a few years later (there was an earlier _Gotterdammerung_ with an all-Scandinavian cast, featuring Svanholm and the past-her-prime Flagstad, a recording I've always been curious about but which was never considered competitive). Windgassen was a strong presence on both of these, his characterization of Siegfried being superbly vivid despite it coming late in his career. I was a little taken aback when someone pointed out that he sounded rather old, since, I have to say, he had me happily fooled by the spirited character he presented. He's a singer for whom I'll always have enormous respect, but I don't fundamentally like his voice. When he and the odd but fervent Martha Modl get together in what's supposed to be a seduction in _Parsifal_ they inspire a hell of a lot of respect.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I wonder if the preference for Windgassen so far (6 to 3, though it should have been 5 to 4 if one of us hadn't accidentally clicked on the wrong name) has to do with loyalty to the first tenor to have recorded Parsifal and Siegfried complete. Until 1962 the only complete _Parsifal_ was the 1951 Bayreuth, and Solti's _Ring_ contained the only complete _Siegfried_ till Karajan's came a few years later (there was an earlier _Gotterdammerung_ with an all-Scandinavian cast, featuring Svanholm and the past-her-prime Flagstad, a recording I've always been curious about but which was never considered competitive). Windgassen was a strong presence on both of these, his characterization of Siegfried being superbly vivid despite it coming late in his career. I was a little taken aback when someone pointed out that he sounded rather old, since, I have to say, he had me happily fooled by the spirited character he presented. He's a singer for whom I'll always have enormous respect, but I don't fundamentally like his voice. When he and the odd but fervent Martha Modl get together in what's supposed to be a seduction in _Parsifal_ they inspire a hell of a lot of respect.


From what I can see Seattle preferred Kaufmann but hasn't cast a vote for him.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> From what I can see Seattle preferred Kaufmann but hasn't cast a vote for him.


AH - _HAH!_ Hey Seattle! Get out and vote! The Grail is calling you!


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Listening to Windgassen, I often wonder how the voice I'm hearing managed to withstand Wagnerian rigors over the course of his career.


I think that it was a matter of not trying to beef up his sound - too many lyric tenors who move into heavier repertoire oversing and don't last very long.



> Kaufmann is far superior in every respect, vocally and artistically.


I agree. Windgassen sounds like he's readinng the phone book. This is one of Kaufmann's best roles.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> This is one of Kaufmann's best roles.


I'm not aware of a CD recording of _Parsifal_ starring Kaufmann. I have no interest in watching the Met's raspberry Koolaid production on DVD, and I feel it's about time for another really good CD of the opera, if only to get Kaufmann's performance down for posterity. There's a great abundance of historical live recordings, but it's been a long time since the last first-rate studio recording. Who else should be on it, and who should conduct? I liked Peter Mattei's Amfortas at the Met, but can do without Katarina Dalayman, and Rene Pape is now past his prime and in my opinion was never equal to the best Gurnemanzes of the past. This might prove difficult given the current crop of dramatic voices ("dramatic what?"), but hope springs eternal.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> AH - _HAH!_ Hey Seattle! Get out and vote! The Grail is calling you!


I feel like a Democrat voter in Georgia!!! I can't believe I didn't vote before. Bonetan, thanks for making me feel important!!!!! Has anyone heard the gorgeous Kaufmann live and is the voice of a good size? He looks very lean and not very big.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I'm not aware of a CD recording of _Parsifal_ starring Kaufmann.


There isn't one. I have an audio recording of the Met broadcast, so I'm spared the visual shtick.



> I have no interest in watching the Met's raspberry Koolaid production on DVD, and I feel it's about time for another really good CD of the opera, if only to get Kaufmann's performance down for posterity. There's a great abundance of historical live recordings, but it's been a long time since the last first-rate studio recording. Who else should be on it, and who should conduct?


Hmm. Either Thielemann or Jurowski, both of whom have conducted some pretty good Wagner. I agree that Pape is past his best (it's a shame that there was no Met broadcast in 2010, when he was fresher, and Heppner was the Parsifal). Perhaps Zeppenfeld or Groissböck? Mattei is a pretty obvious choice for Amfortas. Not sure about Kundry; I haven't been very happy with any of the sopranos or mezzos-turned-soprano who've been singing the dramatic Wagnerian roles for the past decade. Maybe Goerke or Davidsen?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I feel like a Democrat voter in Georgia!!! I can't believe I didn't vote before. Bonetan, thanks for making me feel important!!!!! Has anyone heard the gorgeous Kaufmann live and is the voice of a good size? He looks very lean and not very big.


I have seen him live several times. He is exactly what you pictured.
Here is a little gift for you. Wait till you see Tosca come running in (?)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> There isn't one. I have an audio recording of the Met broadcast, so I'm spared the visual shtick.
> 
> Hmm. Either Thielemann or Jurowski, both of whom have conducted some pretty good Wagner. I agree that Pape is past his best (it's a shame that there was no Met broadcast in 2010, when he was fresher, and Heppner was the Parsifal). Perhaps Zeppenfeld or Groissböck? Mattei is a pretty obvious choice for Amfortas. *Not sure about Kundry; I haven't been very happy with any of the sopranos or mezzos-turned-soprano who've been singing the dramatic Wagnerian roles for the past decade. Maybe Goerke or Davidsen?*


I'm stumped. With great Kundrys like Ludwig and Dalis permanently imprinted on my brain, Davidsen doesn't feel like a possibility. Kundry lies low for a soprano and would seem to be within the best part of Goerke's voice, rarely calling on her peculiar high notes. A distinct maybe. As for conducting, I found Gatti's interpretation at the Met often beautiful and moving. Some complain that it lacked momentum, but he's had time to work on it.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Windgassen could be an acquired taste even on his best day. I know this concert performance quite well, Gottlob Frick does much better job of it, by the way.
Surprisingly, Kaufmann does not sound as if he tries to darken his voice or attempts anything "artificial" which bothers me greatly in some of his recordings. He's probably busy with the part's demands so the music develops naturally 
A solid win for Jonas.

P.S. I'd really like to see at least one single entry from someone having voted for Windgassen. None so far, yet he wins


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Azol said:


> Windgassen could be an acquired taste even on his best day. I know this concert performance quite well, Gottlob Frick does much better job of it, by the way.
> Surprisingly, Kaufmann does not sound as if he tries to darken his voice or attempts anything "artificial" which bothers me greatly in some of his recordings. He's probably busy with the part's demands so the music develops naturally
> A solid win for Jonas.
> 
> P.S. I'd really like to see at least one single entry from someone having voted for Windgassen. None so far, yet he wins


I voted for Windgassen, but I totally understand why Kaufmann is making the greater impression as he's much more dramatically involved. However, as I've stated before, I will never forgive Kaufmann's technique, those who sing with a similar method, and what they've done to modern dramatic singing. I hold them all responsible along with their teachers. Consider mine a vote of principle.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I voted for Windgassen, but I totally understand why Kaufmann is making the greater impression as he's much more dramatically involved. However, as I've stated before, I will never forgive Kaufmann's technique, those who sing with a similar method, and what they've done to modern dramatic singing. I hold them all responsible along with their teachers. Consider mine a vote of principle.


Principle schminciple. Kaufmann is better.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Principle schminciple. Kaufmann is better.


I wouldn't argue that, your points are valid as they always are, but I've really become a stickler when it comes to technique and you've helped to create this monster I've become, so don't give me any crap dear Woodduck! :lol: but in all seriousness, the amount of young singers I encounter who are artificially darkening their tone in this manner makes me sick and makes it impossible for me to vote for Kaufmann.

I had an experience with a baritone who was tied in knots because of this just last week. We spent a good bit of time talking about his teachers and the things they had done to his technique over the years. It makes me extremely frustrated. I know that I feel more strongly than most about how detrimental the success of singer's like Kaufmann are to the art, but I feel that I must continue banging the drum for a freer, more natural placement with no exceptions.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> I voted for Windgassen, but I totally understand why Kaufmann is making the greater impression as he's much more dramatically involved. However, as I've stated before, I will never forgive Kaufmann's technique, those who sing with a similar method, and what they've done to modern dramatic singing. I hold them all responsible along with their teachers. Consider mine a vote of principle.


I admit that I had a similar feeling while listening and watching both singers. Windgassen's production is completely unpressurized, which is presumably why he sounded pretty much the same for his entire career. But that relaxed singing, completely without any sense of tension, produces less in terms of dramatic impact.

My issue with artificial darkening is more related to baritones singing Verdi and verismo. They're all trying to sound like Ruffo, when they should be trying to sound like de Luca or Bonelli.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> I admit that I had a similar feeling while listening and watching both singers. Windgassen's production is completely unpressurized, which is presumably why he sounded pretty much the same for his entire career. But that relaxed singing, completely without any sense of tension, produces less in terms of dramatic impact.
> 
> My issue with artificial darkening is more related to baritones singing Verdi and verismo. They're all trying to sound like Ruffo, when they should be trying to sound like de Luca or Bonelli.


Spot on in all regards imo. I share that same issue regarding baritones singing Verdi and verismo. It's an epidemic. I've told fellow singers, even if you have a voice the size of Ruffo's you should always strive to sing like de Luca.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> There isn't one. I have an audio recording of the Met broadcast, so I'm spared the visual shtick.
> 
> Hmm. Either Thielemann or Jurowski, both of whom have conducted some pretty good Wagner. I agree that Pape is past his best (it's a shame that there was no Met broadcast in 2010, when he was fresher, and Heppner was the Parsifal). Perhaps Zeppenfeld or Groissböck? Mattei is a pretty obvious choice for Amfortas. Not sure about Kundry; I haven't been very happy with any of the sopranos or mezzos-turned-soprano who've been singing the dramatic Wagnerian roles for the past decade. Maybe Goerke or Davidsen?


I don't think there is the money anymore to make many opera recordings using current singers. We also have very few singers who many would care to hear imortalized in a recording.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Windgassen, for me. Primarily, it's because the brightness and focus of Windgassen's voice cuts through the orchestra in a way I find more arresting than Kaufmann's darker sound.

If we take, for instance, Kaufmann's declamation (1:13-1:41) and compare Windgassen (0:54-1:24) I find the older artist sings intensely but also _beautifully_ and you might say he achieves more with less. Kaufmann sings powerfully but thickly - the tone spreads a fair bit.

Similarly, comparing Windgassen at (3:30-4:15) to Kaufmann (3:54-5:11). Superficially, Kaufmann does much more - quieter here, louder there, stronger emphasis here etc. It's just, to me, a very dull sound. With Windgassen, it sounds deceptively simple: clear words, clear line, no fuss.

My actual favourite Parsifal is probably Sandor Konya e.g.




I'd suggest that Konya's mellifluous sound rather conveniently splits the difference between Windgassen and Kaufmann - mellower than the former, more brilliant than the latter.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Interesting comparison between too dark and too bright. I find Windgassen grating and Kaufmann exhausting.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Revitalized Classics said:


> My actual favourite Parsifal is probably Sandor Konya e.g.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Konya was a better singer than either Windgassen or Kaufmann. The vocal emission is impeccably free, open and spinning. I do wonder what he's singing at a few points, though, with pitch and rhythm uncertain. His sound is unusually slender and Italianate, a bit lacking in gravitas for my taste, with little of the pain or mystery inherent in this moment of revelation. He'd make a fine Tamino or, in Wagner, steersman in _Hollander._


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

In the end, neither of these singers can deliver the devastating impact this tortured, harrowing music is capable of having. Here Parsifal's little reality of childish indulgence is blown open to the whole world of human suffering by a kiss that would keep him a child forever if he fails to reject it. It's an incredibly audacious idea for an operatic scene, and all it needs is a superhuman voice and a comprehending soul to make it terrifyingly real. That's all.

OK, Bonetan. How about Jon Vickers against Lauritz Melchior?


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Windgassen, for me. Primarily, it's because the brightness and focus of Windgassen's voice cuts through the orchestra in a way I find more arresting than Kaufmann's darker sound.
> 
> If we take, for instance, Kaufmann's declamation (1:13-1:41) and compare Windgassen (0:54-1:24) I find the older artist sings intensely but also _beautifully_ and you might say he achieves more with less. Kaufmann sings powerfully but thickly - the tone spreads a fair bit.
> 
> Similarly, comparing Windgassen at (3:30-4:15) to Kaufmann (3:54-5:11). Superficially, Kaufmann does much more - quieter here, louder there, stronger emphasis here etc. It's just, to me, a very dull sound. With Windgassen, it sounds deceptively simple: clear words, clear line, no fuss.


To add onto what Revitalized Classics said, another part that really showed the differences between the two singers for me are 5:30-6:05 for Windgassen and 6:00-6:30 for Kaufmann. In this part, Windgassen's voice naturally projects over the orchestra, and when I listen to Kaufmann, I had trouble locating it. Even though Windgassen looks less involved in the music than Kaufmann does, I feel that at the end of the phrase, Windgassen sang words with meaning while Kaufmann just spat out the notes. I almost want to say that Kaufmann sings too beautifully for the gravity of this part.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> In the end, neither of these singers can deliver the devastating impact this tortured, harrowing music is capable of having. Here Parsifal's little reality of childish indulgence is blown open to the whole world of human suffering by a kiss that would keep him a child forever if he fails to reject it. It's an incredibly audacious idea for an operatic scene, and all it needs is a superhuman voice and a comprehending soul to make it terrifyingly real. That's all.
> 
> OK, Bonetan. How about Jon Vickers against Lauritz Melchior?


The match-up I neeeed!!!


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## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

I remember the first time I heard Kaufman. I set my alarm to world radio and an Australian radio station was playing a song by him, which eludes me now. It was in English, I think in the 1940’s repertoire. I was impressed. However, IMO, he is not best suited for Wagnerian roles. I chose Windgassen here. The old pro, singing in a way that instills confidence, if not overloaded with dramaticism.

Windgassen is a curiosity to me. He doesn’t seem ideal at first or second listen, especially compared to so many other singers. Still, he is so reliable, like Old Faithful. Not the best, not the worst. He has really grown on me, especially with his characterization of Parsifal.


EDIT- The song I heard at 5am upon waking that day was The Song is Over: Don’t Ask Me Why


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't think there is the money anymore to make many opera recordings using current singers. We also have very few singers who many would care to hear imortalized in a recording.


Most opera recordings are currently made from live performances, so it would require a company to cast optimally in order to achieve the desired casting.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> OK, Bonetan. How about Jon Vickers against Lauritz Melchior?


Bookies favourite for the final? If I was a betting man, I'd put money on it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> Most opera recordings are currently made from live performances, so it would require a company to cast optimally in order to achieve the desired casting.


I think you are right. Likely DVD's might be more popular. The advantage is today a live recording won't sound like Callas' Armida!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I think you are right. Likely DVD's might be more popular. The advantage is today a live recording won't sound like Callas' Armida!


Or have singers as good as Callas!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I'm late to the ball. Poor Windgassen! He is an artist, but I can't qualify my choice on that, as I am not very well acquainted with *Parsifal*, having seen only Rene Kollo in the role in San Francisco in a quirky production by Nicklaus Lenhoff. Not my favorite Wagner,
I choose Kaufman, as his voice is so phonogenic and sounds like he looks. He, to me, is involved, unlike Windgassen who holds a score and gives the wrong impression (of being unprepared).


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

MAS said:


> unlike Windgassen who holds a score and gives the wrong impression (of being unprepared).


That surprised me as well. The recording is from 1964 - Windgassen had been singing this role, on stage, for at least fifteen years.


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