# forgiveness



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Must be one of the most important things in human life - rarer than love, perhaps. 

I'm drawing a blank on it though. What is the music that makes you feel forgiveness? Or that you associate with forgiveness?


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Baby making music


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

The codas of Bruckner's symphonies convey, to me, a great sense of overcoming, of mercy even.


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## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

I think Haydn's 'Seven Last Words from The Cross' which starts.. 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' and continues in the vein of repentance and forgiveness for mankind in all 7 of it's sections. I have two versions:


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

All sacred music from Arvo Part.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

It depends. My forgiveness when music is bad.... LOL or corny... If it is more general (other people's forgiveness) i would say opera, no forgiveness scene comes to mind right now.... Yes! la *fanciulla del West,* when the forgive the guy at the end of the opera.

Martin


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm listening to the opening of the final movement of Mahler's 3rd, and it kind of sounds like forgiveness to me. Maybe just the power of suggestion...


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

Too obvious?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

When I think about it for some reason Debussy's _Clair de Lune_ from Suite Bergamasque, and Bach's _Chaconne_ (2nd part) from BWV 1004 come to mind for me.


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

Exactly what I want to say!

One of the most sublime music of all!



Norse said:


> Too obvious?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks for the post. Considering a response, I realize that I don't practice forgiveness, or even accept it as a privilege I possess. I can do acceptance, and 'making allowance', but not forgiveness. Once the mark [*'*] is on the wall, it stays there.

Maybe that failing is balanced by my inability to forgive myself... or maybe not.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

The optimistic ending is basically Liszt forgiving God, based on the chorale 'Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan' (What God does is well done).


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Forgiveness is most important for the forgiver. Without it there is only bitterness and resentment.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Thanks for the post. Considering a response, I realize that I don't practice forgiveness, or even accept it as a privilege I possess. I can do acceptance, and 'making allowance', but not forgiveness. Once the mark [*'*] is on the wall, it stays there.
> 
> Maybe that failing is balanced by my inability to forgive myself... or maybe not.


I recognise that is a serious observation about yourself which you are sharing. Thank you.

In general, an unwillingness to forgive others is always an unwillingness to forgive ourselves.

Each of us does the best we can. When we refuse to forgive another we are judging them as being not good enough - maybe they haven't passed our test. We are making them the cause of our troubles. That is both making ourself 'better' than them ("why should I forgive them?, they haven't earned it") but also their victim ("if only they'd not done what they did, I wouldn't be where I am now"). This is an impossible situation to get out of. Better to think ourselves into a different position.

In other words, forgiveness is about releasing _ourselves_, not the other person who - frankly - has probably long forgotten whatever transgression caused the current problem in the first place.

If it is about forgiving ourself, I just ask the question, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? Often forgiveness can be no more than letting go of that need to be right about something. That doesn't mean accepting you're wrong. It's not about letting go of being right: it means letting go of your _need_, your _attachment _to being right about someone or something.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> ...
> ...What is the music that makes you feel forgiveness? Or that you associate with forgiveness?


Mendelssohn - 'Notturno' from 'A Midsummer Night's Dream,' esp. the horn solo in it
Grieg - Slow movement from 'Piano Concerto in A minor'


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

but if someone is a persistent turd you should remember so you don't get harmed again.

forgiveness is good ultimately but in short amounts caution is good too.

maybe show them forgiveness in a hope that it spreads but inside remember what they are.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> I recognise that is a serious observation about yourself which you are sharing. Thank you.
> 
> In general, an unwillingness to forgive others is always an unwillingness to forgive ourselves.
> 
> ...


Reads like it's out of a psychology manual, might even fit the facts, sometimes. Doesn't appear to fit my concept of 'forgiveness'. Language can be so imprecise sometimes. For instance, I have no problem forgiving myself for not being right [!], my difficulty is with forgiving myself for not _doing_ right.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Thanks for the post. Considering a response, I realize that I don't practice forgiveness, or even accept it as a privilege I possess. I can do acceptance, and 'making allowance', but not forgiveness. Once the mark [*'*] is on the wall, it stays there.
> 
> Maybe that failing is balanced by my inability to forgive myself... or maybe not.


That sounds very sad.

Martin


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

Beethoven's lento from his last string quartet, op.135. Forgiveness, acceptance, peace.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Or as Oscar Wilde said , "Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them so much ."












:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> If it is about forgiving ourself, I just ask the question, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? Often forgiveness can be no more than letting go of that need to be right about something.


Yes, well put. Though I feel that they who forgive are, in a way, always right.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Beethoven's Symphony 9 is sort of asking for forgiveness. I know it almost makes me cry hearing it. This coming from someone not too big into Beethoven.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Hilltroll72 said:


> ... For instance, I have no problem forgiving myself for not being right [!], my difficulty is with forgiving myself for not _doing_ right.


Yeah well we are our own worst critics, as the saying goes.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2012)

I don't ever forgive or forget....revenge is my way.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Andante said:


> I don't ever forgive or forget....revenge is my way.


*OUCH.* I must remember to never cross you, then!!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Andante said:


> I don't ever forgive or forget....revenge is my way.


That standard phrase "forgive and forget" doesn't fit my notion of what forgiveness means anyway. If you don't manage the 'forget' part, you haven't 'forgiven'; you've only 'made an allowance'.

In hopes of _un-highjacking_ the thread, I still haven't come up with any music that I can associate with forgiveness.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

The end of Mahler's Kindertotenlieder, where the turmoil, anger and despair suddenly make way for a calm and soothing glimpse of heaven. I associate it with forgiving Fate/God/Whomever for the early death of the infants.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> In hopes of _un-highjacking_ the thread, I still haven't come up with any music that I can associate with forgiveness.


Me neither. I need to listen to the suggestions (of course I've heard many of them before, but not with this question in mind).

I thought there would be a lot of arias, scenes where lovers forgive their betrayers along the lines of _Le Nozze di Figaro_'s _Piú docile io sono_, suggested by Norse.

Lisztian's suggestion reminded me of Bach's _Ich habe genug_, but his suggestion was better insofar as it implies forgiveness where Bach's cantata is only about contentment. Still, if I ignore the words and listen only to the music (easy to do for me, as I know hardly any German), I can feel that it could be about forgiveness.

On the philosophical stuff, I can't contribute very well. I'm not sure I've ever forgiven anyone in a really big way. I'm not sure I understand the idea of forgiveness. Does it mean I'm not angry anymore? That I no longer care what happened? That I trust the person again, as much as before? If it just means that (regardless of my feelings) I don't demand restitution when I would have the right to do so... hmm... I have to think about it. I'll guess that I either don't really care from the beginning, or I hold a grudge until I no longer care, which may or may not count as forgiveness. Perhaps I live carefully; most of the things that come to mind as things I might have forgiven are things that I anticipated before they happened, so that I had already basically made my peace with it before it happened. I am certainly the most cynical person I know, so that I am rarely surprised by the kind of thing that I might forgive. Anyway, from this point, maybe the question isn't of me forgiving a particular person for doing a particular thing, but of forgiving humanity (myself in the bargain) for all the horrible things we do to each other. I don't think I _can_ forgive that. I think I will die angry at human nature.


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

I've wrestled with this issue of forgiveness for a long time. What I know at this point is what forgiveness _isn't:_

It isn't condoning the bad things that were done.
It isn't forgetting.
It isn't allowing the perpetrator to do it to [you] again.
It isn't saying 'it's all right now, it was a long time ago.'
It isn't agreeing to hang out with the person again.
It isn't, in short, a 'get out of jail free' card!

So what is it? At this point (and I'm sure this will continue to evolve) it's simply handing the person over to the Universe, to their own Karma, figuratively washing my hands of them. They're on their own. 
The closest I've ever come to traditional forgiveness is in a scene from "Scrooge," the 1951 Alastair Sim version of "A Christmas Carol." His fiancee releases Ebenezer from their engagement because of how he's changed. As he leaves, she calls after him, "May you be happy in the life you have chosen." If I can do that consistently, I'll be happy with myself.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

From the Libera Me, Britten's War Requiem:

"I am the enemy you killed, my friend.
I knew you in this dark; for so you frowned
Yesterday through me as you jabbed and killed.
I parried; but my hands were loath and cold."


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

opera seria is rife with it, although it sounds rather condescending to the forgiven one(s). It *is* hard not to appear patronizing when you forgive, as it puts you in the position of power. However, imo, forgiveness is just as important for the offended party, who would otherwise carry the burden of their victimhood (word?).


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