# Bach vs Handel



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm sorry if this has been done before - I did try looking. I'm not so much looking for a competition as a comparison. They are probably the two biggest names of Baroque music but so very different.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Lightyears apart for me. The whole baroque period holds little interest for me (including Handel), yet Bach is my favourite composer of all time.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> Lightyears apart for me. The whole baroque period holds little interest for me (including Handel), yet Bach is my favourite composer of all time.


Bach's my favorite also. To me, much of his music transcends the baroque. Handel's music is more for show and entertainment.


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## Boludo (Apr 4, 2019)

The OP is looking for a comparison, not a game.

And opera and music designed to be played on a boat is not a lower art form than religious works.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Bach is my favorite composer, I can appreciate Handel's immense talent, but his music doesn't appeal to me. The only Handel piece I enjoy is his _Dixit Dominus_.

I think Monteverdi is the second greatest Baroque composer after Bach.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm sorry if this has been done before - I did try looking. I'm not so much looking for a competition as a comparison. They are probably the two biggest names of Baroque music but so very different.


A good place to start is with Handel's Suite in G Major, HWV 441 second movement, and Bach's Invention No. 12 in A Major, BWV 783. My guess is that Bach took the theme from Handel. Handel just spins out the theme while Bach elaborates very consistently.





 




Another instructive comparison is _He was despised_ from the Messiah and _Erbarm es Gott_ from the Matthew Passion. They're both about practically the same thing. Bach uses the theory of affects to paint the feeling of each word with tight harmonic progressions, Handel seizes the basic feeling of the aria and writes a big broad aria.





 




Generally Handel is more conventional, Bach more individual. Handel likes big broad gestures, Bach likes intricate textures. Bach is two dimensional, with intricate polyphony lying below the melody, Handel is a one dimensional melody which sweeps you off your feet. Bach is abstract, Handel is sensual. Compare the sarabande from Lascia ch'io pianga with the Goldberg theme


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## Jim35 (Feb 3, 2018)

When my interest in classical music first began I used to prefer Handel as his music was a lot more accessible than Bach's. I then went through a time when I liked them more or less equally. These days I rather prefer Bach. Another baroque composer I'm very keen on is Monteverdi.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Bach spent his life in the church and service to God and never wrote an opera for that reason. Handel started in Italian opera and, even though he had a few successes, had his greatest triumphs later in life with orchestral music and oratorios. Bach held posts in provincial German towns while Handel, born German, moved to London, a musical center. Hundreds of woodwind players showed up to play his Royal Fireworks Music on London Bridge, he was buried in Westminster Abbey, and died famous. Bach didn't achieve such fame in his lifetime; his St. Matthew Passion was never heard until Mendelssohn revived it decades later. People knew Handel's brilliance in his day but Bach's took centuries to uncover.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> A good place to start is with Handel's Suite in G Major, HWV 441 second movement, and Bach's Invention No. 12 in A Major, BWV 783. My guess is that Bach took the theme from Handel. Handel just spins out the theme while Bach elaborates very consistently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Or Handel took it from Bach. Bach puplished his in 1723. Handel's came out in 1733.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Let’s stop comparing other composers to Bach, they will never measure up.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Handel's Suites for Keyboard are good competition with Bach, if played nimbly enough, like Richter. Also, I never got tears in my eyes from any of Bach's religious music; I do from the Handel arias, as sung by the late Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Red Terror said:


> Let's stop comparing other composers to Bach, they will never measure up.


Let's just stop comparing composers entirely...

Edited for clarification - comparisons inevitably lead to the elevation of one to the diminishment of the other which is fair to neither.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mollie John said:


> Let's just stop comparing composers entirely...


So the conventions of social behavior don't apply to you? After all, you knew what this thread was about before you ever entered it.

This attitude is unfair to the posters who have accepted the thread premise, and have exerted efforts to make posts which are supportive of it.

There are two kinds of posters; those who contribute ideas in good faith, and those who simply sit back and take pot-shots at them.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> So the conventions of social behavior don't apply to you? After all, you knew what this thread was about before you ever entered it.
> 
> This attitude is unfair to the posters who have accepted the thread premise, and have exerted efforts to make posts which are supportive of it.
> 
> There are two kinds of posters; those who contribute ideas in good faith, and those who simply sit back and take pot-shots at them.


Thanks but no thanks - I'm not taking the bait - don't bring your issues in Area 51 into the main forum...

And to whoever it was that invented the "Ignore" function allow me to express my profound gratitude...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Handel's came out in 1733.


1720 I think.

cwsa,lkcns,kcbnwsm,


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mollie John said:


> Thanks but no thanks - I'm not taking the bait - don't bring your issues in Area 51 into the main forum...
> 
> And to whoever it was that invented the "Ignore" function allow me to express my profound gratitude...


After your posting which immediately followed mine, and was calculated to dismiss my effort?

I find this defensive attitude to your overtly negative action to be insulting. and it also reveals that you were carrying a grudge all along. I also see that you've been lurking in Area 51.

Also, take my advice, and use the "ignore" feature only to avoid direct interaction, after a posted response which immediately follows yours (or is in close proximity).

That's the way I use the ignore function; only to avoid direct interaction.

Doing that, you can still see my posts which are isolated from you, and still know what's going on, because some of what I say may be of value to you in the long run.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

They were both great but Beecham points out that whereas Bach was essentially Teutonic in his writing Handel wrote in different styles. But to compare (eg_ Messiah and St Matthew is pointless as they are in totally different styles


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

As a young teenager Bach was my favourite composer. I progressed from the BCs, to the Mass, to the Motets, Organ music and the solo violin pieces and a few select arias - more recently the Passions and Cantatas and I loved them all. And it remained that way until I discovered Handel's Opera. 

Accepting that H. recycled frequently (but then didn't Bach? E.g. the Christmas Oratorio, said Mass, not to mention numerous cantatas) nearly all 38 H's operas are very accessible; good toe tapping stuff with superb melody lines. And his many Oratorios are pretty much Opera with the added bonus of choral numbers. Okay H's libretti can be cliche, cheesy and convoluted but Bach's cantata fire, brimstone and damnation texts are also more than a little wearisome. I would agree with the comment that H. was more sensual as opposed to Bach being more abstract. But whereas I find I have to ration my intake of H's music because his music is for me so addictive, I find a little too much of Bach can lead to musical indigestion - it contains such dense counter point.

This is of course all very personal, but I sometimes suspect a holier than thou kind of attitude is at work here with those who place Bach above H.. H. wrote for every human emotion including seductive and sensual music for the horny Semele using sex as a bribe to get what she wanted from her God. Bach on the other hand, threatened his listeners with eternal Hell unless they complied with the dogma of Lutheranism. 

In comparing the two it is important to note the different audiences and purpose they were writing for and to appreciate that much of the music is designed to serve as an aural vehicle for transporting the message.

Different, but in my mind decidedly equal.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I think that if anything, a comparison reveals that Handel had a deeper emotional stake in his work, if the Arias are any indication; as well as the Messiah, which has a sense of drama which is very overt and effective.

Are there any Bach defenders who can provide examples which demonstrate great emotional response in such a dramatic and spectacular way?

I like Bach for his keyboard works and technical ideas, but the Cantatas never did to me what the Handel Arias do.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> After your posting which immediately followed mine, and was calculated to dismiss my effort?
> 
> I find this defensive attitude to your overtly negative action to be insulting. and it also reveals that you were carrying a grudge all along. I also see that you've been lurking in Area 51.


Absolutely not true about carrying a grudge - I have no quarrel with you - we've never interacted within any thread that I recall other than harmless banter about my avatar.

If my statement about wanting to avoid comparisons because I find them to be inherently unfair was so disturbing to you why haven't you subjected any other member's similarly worded comments to the same wrathful intensity as you did mine? If this issue is of such paramount importance to you then you should be willing to take on everyone who expresses a contrary view within this thread and yet you've chosen to single out mine whilst overlooking the others. Why?

Actually, forget that I even asked - since I don't have a vested interest in the subject matter the wisest course of action would be to just walk away and exit stage left...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mollie John said:


> Absolutely not true about carrying a grudge - I have no quarrel with you - we've never interacted within any thread that I recall other than harmless banter about my avatar.


You just interacted with me in an indirect way, by your post which followed mine.



> If my statement about wanting to avoid comparisons because I find them to be inherently unfair was so disturbing to you why haven't you subjected any other member's similarly worded comments to the same wrathful intensity as you did mine?


Focus on your actions, not my possible ones. I guess it was your timing; your post, which dismissed the whole thread idea, immediately followed my effort. I hope you can see how insensitive this appears, unless you are so passive-aggressive that it escapes you.



> If this issue is of such paramount importance to you then you should be willing to take on everyone who expresses a contrary view within this thread and yet you've chosen to single out mine whilst overlooking the others. Why?


I happen to see the validity in this comparison, and more importantly, your dismissive response to the thread followed my post closely, both in timing and in proximity. (mine 07:19; yours 07:31, and immediately following in proximity)


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> You just interacted with me in an indirect way, by your post which followed mine.
> 
> Focus on your actions, not my possible ones. I guess it was your timing; your post, which dismissed the whole thread idea, immediately followed my effort. I hope you can see how insensitive this appears, unless you are so passive-aggressive that it escapes you.
> 
> I happen to see the validity in this comparison. Like I said, your dismissive response to the thread followed my post closely, both in timing and in proximity. (mine 07:19; yours 07:31, and immediately following.


The timing and proximity were purely coincidental and I give you my word of honour that they were not in any way, shape, or form intended as an expression of a passive-aggressive reflection upon your comments and allow me to once again state that my response was not intended to be "dismissive" as I would never show that level of disrespect to the OP (who is a friend of mine) and was meant to be taken in the sense that comparisons of this nature have a tendency to elevate one composer at the expense of diminishing the other which I find to be both unfair and unproductive.

Again, I have no quarrel with you and this is not an issue in which I can summon up the will and desire to continue and the wisest course for me is to just walk away...

This was a misunderstanding from start to finish and is best left behind us.

Best wishes - MJ


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

I listen to Handel much more. I saw Lorraine Hunt sing Handel several times including the concert featuring her aria program. Those were some of the best vocal concerts I've every attended. Handel's value keeps rising due to past obscurity of his operas. Bach is pretty much overworked in my ears and rarely sounds fresh. they both repeat themselves a lot and overextend their material which is why I have to switch to Couperin quite often for refreshment.

Now if I was to get mean on a baroque composer, I'd pick Purcell :devil: All those odes and anthems...


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Most of the responses here are very opinionated; I think the OP was looking for more objective comparisons.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Taking that as I response to my post, I'd say this thread is now deceased. Standards are too high for normal people.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Most of the responses here are very opinionated; I think the OP was looking for more objective comparisons.


Objective? What do you mean, note-counts?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> A good place to start is with Handel's Suite in G Major, HWV 441 second movement, and Bach's Invention No. 12 in A Major, BWV 783. My guess is that Bach took the theme from Handel. Handel just spins out the theme while Bach elaborates very consistently.


Handel's fugal writing is also interesting





Around the time Handel wrote Messiah (1741), Bach wrote WTC book II (1742), in which the A minor fugue contains a subject similar to one from And With His Stripes from Handel's Messiah


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> Objective? What do you mean, note-counts?


(Preferably specific) differences in treatment of melody, harmony, counterpoint, texture, form, as well as stylistic choices, views on music, etc. I think this has the potential to be a very useful thread, and I'm interested in it personally, but most of the posts just seem to be general statements about which composer someone likes more. Perhaps this thread should be posted in the "music theory" sub-forum.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I find 80% of Handel kind of boring, but some great gems he wrote. Bach is much more consistently interesting to me.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Red Terror said:


> Let's stop comparing other composers to Bach, they will never measure up.


I don't think comparisons need to be about the measuring (of the value) of the two. Clearly, both were giants but, equally clearly, they were so in very different ways. There have been a few posts here which seem to reflect that and try to tease out what these different ways are. Inevitably, some posts express personal preferences but (as I tried to make clear in the OP) I was not after that. Perhaps, Bach was greater than Handel (or anyone else) but there were several things that Handel excelled at that were just not within Bach's grasp, most obviously operas (and I include the dramatic oratorios within this category because they were merely an opera composer's way of staying on top during a period when operas were frowned upon). I'm sure if you know both and think about it you will find ways of comparing them without measuring their relative value (which might, indeed, be tiresome).


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> 1720 I think.
> 
> cwsa,lkcns,kcbnwsm,


The eight great suites in the first collection were published 1720, and the second collection (containing among others HMW 441) was published 1732/3, but some of (or maybe all) the suites had circulated in the shape of manuscript copies long before that. I do not see any obvious similarity between the A major invention and the suite in question BTW.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Beethoven praised Handel. How many scores of Bach were available to LvB? Does anyone know?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

larold said:


> Bach spent his life in the church and service to God and never wrote an opera for that reason. Handel started in Italian opera and, even though he had a few successes, had his greatest triumphs later in life with orchestral music and oratorios. Bach held posts in provincial German towns while Handel, born German, moved to London, a musical center. Hundreds of woodwind players showed up to play his Royal Fireworks Music on London Bridge, he was buried in Westminster Abbey, and died famous. Bach didn't achieve such fame in his lifetime; his St. Matthew Passion was never heard until Mendelssohn revived it decades later. People knew Handel's brilliance in his day but Bach's took centuries to uncover.


Well, Handel spent some good time in Italy before going to London .... but, once there, he wrote a number of very successful operas before changing fashions caused him to develop the dramatic oratorio. There are probably more but both Julius Ceasar and Acis and Galatea are surely very great operas as are several of the oratorios, including the very beautiful Theodora. But, overall, your comparison brings out important differences between the two.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Mollie John said:


> Let's just stop comparing composers entirely...
> 
> Edited for clarification - comparisons inevitably lead to the elevation of one to the diminishment of the other which is fair to neither.


At the risk of submitting to your ignore button, I wonder why all discussions and comparisons of composers must (_inevitably_) lead to elevating one and diminishing the other? The difference in this case seems to add up to two very different purposes for music, neither of which could reasonably be said to be better than the other. And, BTW, what is this Area 52 that you are discussing with millionrainbows about?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

In most of his fugues, Bach uses a pedal point and then a picardy third over it to end the final cadence in parallel major, so that even his minor-key fugues end in parallel major. (with few exceptions like Toccata and fugue in D minor BWV565, which some scholars believe Bach didn't write) Whereas Handel often doesn't do that. I believe this partly because Bach is deeply influenced by religion in his work and the clergy at the time didn't allow music to end in minor keys. So if you're given a random Bach fugue and a Handel fugue and asked if you could tell them apart, one way to guess it would be to look at the technique used in the endings. It's interesting that there are a number of classical era fugues don't adhere to Bach's procedure in this respect — perhaps Handel's influence was bigger during the time.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Upon hearing the 'Hallelujah Chorus' from Messiah, Joseph Haydn is said to have "wept like a child" and exclaimed:

"He is the master of us all."

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart is said to have remarked,

"Handel understands effect better than any of us -- when he chooses, he strikes like a thunderbolt... though he often saunters, in the manner of his time, this is always something there."

Ludwig van Beethoven is said to have exclaimed,

"Handel is the greatest composer that ever lived... I would uncover my head and kneel down on his tomb."

Source: Edward Schulz (English musician who visited Beethoven in 1816 and 1823), "A Day with Beethoven", The Harmonicum (1824)

Ludwig van Beethoven, when asked to name the greatest composer ever, he is said to have responded,

"Handel, to him I bow the knee."

Ludwig van Beethoven, on his deathbed, in his referring to an edition of Handel's works, is reported to have said,

"There is the truth."

In 1819, Beethoven told Archduke Rudolph:

"not to forget Handel's works, as they always offer the best nourishment for your ripe musical mind, and will at the same time lead to admiration for this great man."

Hector Berlioz is said to have remarked about Handel,

"A tub of pork and beer."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I generally prefer Bach, but there's one area in which Handel excelled. Handel began composing operas at the age of twenty, and he's one of the greatest composers for the human voice. He understood the voice thoroughly, and singers love him for it. His vocal writing is full of poised, expansive legato lines, it asks for great expressive warmth, it allows for creative embellishment, and it uses the full range of the voice without overtaxing any part of it. It makes singers feel good and sound good. Much of Handel's best work is found in his operas and oratorios.

Bach can write well for the voice, but on the whole his vocal writing is less comfortable and less forgiving than Handel's. There's less room for the singer to make an individual contribution, either to express herself or to embellish. His vocal lines are more likely to be structured like his instrumental writing. Some of his choral writing can be relentlessly intricate and difficult.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> At the risk of submitting to your ignore button, I wonder why all discussions and comparisons of composers must (_inevitably_) lead to elevating one and diminishing the other? The difference in this case seems to add up to two very different purposes for music, neither of which could reasonably be said to be better than the other. And, BTW, what is this Area 52 that you are discussing with millionrainbows about?


You're at no risk of the "Ignore" function (and neither is Millions whose advocacy of contemporary classical music and sense of humour I would miss) but as was mentioned by other posters these types of discussions tend to be divisive as composers who are paired up against one another will be vigourously defended by their advocates whenever they perceive that someone is attempting to rubbish the reputation of a composer that means a great deal to them.

I know and comprehend what your intent is and I find it admirable but based on my experience in other forums there comes a point where everyone starts to take everything far too seriously, tempers flare up, and a thread can quickly spiral out of control until it is "Closed - temporarily - for further review".

And if you don't know after three years here that it's "Area 51" and not "Area 52" and where it's located, you're better off not knowing -


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> I generally prefer Bach, but there's one area in which Handel excelled. Handel began composing operas at the age of twenty, and he's one of the greatest composers for the human voice. He understood the voice thoroughly, and singers love him for it. His vocal writing is full of poised, expansive legato lines, it asks for great expressive warmth, it allows for creative embellishment, and it uses the full range of the voice without overtaxing any part of it. It makes singers feel good and sound good. Much of Handel's best work is found in his operas and oratorios.
> 
> Bach can write well for the voice, but on the whole his vocal writing is less comfortable and less forgiving than Handel's. There's less room for the singer to make an individual contribution, either to express herself or to embellish. His vocal lines are more likely to be structured like his instrumental writing. Some of his choral writing can be relentlessly intricate and difficult.


Well said, sir, my compliments! And a quite nice rebuttal to my contention that these types of comparisons are naught but divisive.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Good point by Woodduck. Some composers write for all instruments somewhat neutrally, while others write with specific instruments in mind. Sometimes this is about color but wiih Bach and Handel (and Vivaldi too) I'm talking about phrasing. With wind instruments and vocals, Vivaldi and Handel breath in a way that Bach seems to overlook or simply not care about. It's as if Bach didn't care to write music that wasn't technically challenging, while Handel was not so obtuse. Bach was perhaps the modernist in that sense.

I've mentioned this before.. about 10 years ago when I got into Handel's Italian operas, it had an impact on my own blues playing as I decided to be more like Handel's crazy heroines...


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Mollie John said:


> And if you don't know after three years here that it's "Area 51" and not "Area 52" and where it's located, you're better off not knowing -


No, I do really want to know. According to Wiki it is


> The United States Air Force facility commonly known as Area 51 is a highly classified remote detachment of Edwards Air Force Base


but that can't be right. I explore music rather than this site, it seems, but now I know there is something bubbling away under the surface I'm not sure I will be able to sleep tonight.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Boludo said:


> The OP is looking for a comparison, not a game.


Right. The only appropriate place on TC for games is the Polls/Games subforum. It's good that nobody started a game on this thread.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> No, I do really want to know. According to Wiki it is
> 
> but that can't be right. I explore music rather than this site, it seems, but now I know there is something bubbling away under the surface I'm not sure I will be able to sleep tonight.


https://www.talkclassical.com/area-51-a/


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## Boludo (Apr 4, 2019)

Bulldog said:


> Right. The only appropriate place on TC for games is the Polls/Games subforum. It's good that nobody started a game on this thread.


Yes, I stopped you two just in time.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Bach's art is essentially musical; Handel's art is essentially dramatic. Bach's art looked back to the complex polyphony of the Renaissance and Handel's looked forward to the cleaner homophonics of Classicism. Later composers went to Bach to learn music, especially counterpoint; but they went to Handel to learn "affects" (as Mozart called them). You hear the influence of Bach in works like Mozart's 41st Symphony and Beethoven's Grosse Fugue; you hear the influence of Handel on Mozart's operas and Beethoven's 5th. I essentially agree with one person who said Bach was abstract and Handel was sensual. I'd also say Bach was more about harmony, Handel more about melody. 

Personally, I greatly prefer Handel, though I know I'm in the gross minority there. Bach's intricacy and complexity just wearies me after a while as fugues start to sound like clockwork. Handel shares with Mozart (my favorite composer) a gift of melodic sweetness that makes him instantly appealing, but likewise a gift for dramatic structures that makes him, at his best, deeper than just those superficial pleasures. I find Handel's operas and oratorios the most profound and moving prior to Mozart. Even when his librettos are bad and stilted, Handel manages to humanize his characters and find great emotional and psychological insights that just aren't there in the text. For whatever reason, I find people seem less appreciative of these features these days than they once were, perhaps because these influences were so well integrated into Mozart, Beethoven, and other future greats; while Bach's gifts seem uniquely unsurpassed and less thoroughly integrated. Essentially, we can go to other composers and find the qualities that made Handel great, and perhaps find them in styles that our contemporary ears prefer--eg, the heightened emotional expressivity of romanticism--but we can't do this so much with Bach. For me it just comes down to preferring those things that made Handel great over those that made Bach great.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Boludo said:


> Yes, I stopped you two just in time.


That was funny. :lol:


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

I remember reading A Short History of Opera and it having glowing things to say of Handel. The conclusion has stuck with me since reading it and I thought I'd post it here:


> It must be emphasized that in every case the realization not only of mood but also of personality comes from the music. Caesar in Haym's libretto is a stage hero in the manner of the early eighteenth century; only through Handel's music does his character receive those qualities that make him a truly dramatic figure. Caesar and Cleopatra, Radamisto and Zenobia, Bajazet and others of Handel's dramatic creations are universal, ideal types of humanity, moving and thinking on a vast scale, the analogue in opera of the great tragic personages of Corneille. This quality is more than the reflection of a certain musical style or a consummate technique; it is the direct emanation of Handel's own spirit, expressed in music with an immediacy that has no parallel outside Beethoven. It is the incarnation of a great soul. If his characters suffer, the music gives full, eloquent expression to their sorrows--but it never whines; there is not a note in it of self-pity. We are moved by the spectacle of suffering, but our compassion is mingled with admiration at suffering so nobly endured, with pride that we ourselves belong to a species capable of such heroism.


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## skim1124 (Mar 6, 2019)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Bach's art is essentially musical; Handel's art is essentially dramatic. Bach's art looked back to the complex polyphony of the Renaissance and Handel's looked forward to the cleaner homophonics of Classicism. Later composers went to Bach to learn music, especially counterpoint; but they went to Handel to learn "affects" (as Mozart called them). You hear the influence of Bach in works like Mozart's 41st Symphony and Beethoven's Grosse Fugue; you hear the influence of Handel on Mozart's operas and Beethoven's 5th. I essentially agree with one person who said Bach was abstract and Handel was sensual. I'd also say Bach was more about harmony, Handel more about melody.
> 
> Personally, I greatly prefer Handel, though I know I'm in the gross minority there. Bach's intricacy and complexity just wearies me after a while as fugues start to sound like clockwork. Handel shares with Mozart (my favorite composer) a gift of melodic sweetness that makes him instantly appealing, but likewise a gift for dramatic structures that makes him, at his best, deeper than just those superficial pleasures. I find Handel's operas and oratorios the most profound and moving prior to Mozart. Even when his librettos are bad and stilted, Handel manages to humanize his characters and find great emotional and psychological insights that just aren't there in the text. For whatever reason, I find people seem less appreciative of these features these days than they once were, perhaps because these influences were so well integrated into Mozart, Beethoven, and other future greats; while Bach's gifts seem uniquely unsurpassed and less thoroughly integrated. Essentially, we can go to other composers and find the qualities that made Handel great, and perhaps find them in styles that our contemporary ears prefer--eg, the heightened emotional expressivity of romanticism--but we can't do this so much with Bach. For me it just comes down to preferring those things that made Handel great over those that made Bach great.


Thanks for this. You taught/showed me several things in just two paragraphs. I'm sure people can think of counter-examples, but broadly speaking, I think what you say rings true to my impressions of Bach and Handel, though I couldn't have explained what those impressions were. The next time I listen to Bach and Handel (and Beethoven and Mozart), I'll be able to do so with a little more awareness of what it is about them I appreciate. Again, thanks.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

skim1124 said:


> Thanks for this. You taught/showed me several things in just two paragraphs. I'm sure people can think of counter-examples, but broadly speaking, I think what you say rings true to my impressions of Bach and Handel, though I couldn't have explained what those impressions were. The next time I listen to Bach and Handel (and Beethoven and Mozart), I'll be able to do so with a little more awareness of what it is about them I appreciate. Again, thanks.


You're very welcome! And thanks for the kudos. :cheers:


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

I think Bach is boring, it's all sounds so...Bach! And all the obvious praise he gets, isn't that a bit suspicious? I think he's a pseudo genius with only 1 recipe.

Händel is lively and full of soul! With at least 4 or 5 recipes


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Razumovskymas said:


> I think Bach is boring, it's all sounds so...Bach! And all the obvious praise he gets, isn't that a bit suspicious? I think he's a pseudo genius with only 1 recipe.
> 
> Händel is lively and full of soul! With at least 4 or 5 recipes


Not suspicious at all - well deserved. You should stick with food preparation.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

I thought let's use some genius food metaphors to finally break Bach's hegemony!

All there is left to do for me now is roll my eyes when Bach's superiority is claimed.


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