# combining Classical music and Jazz



## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

I guess the majority of TC-members are strongly drawn to either classical music or jazz, but not so much to a combination of both.

Anyway, I really like both "worlds" and I'm recently fascinated by combining them in compositions.

So far, I couldn't find much balanced music - most of what I found was quite one-sided (Jazz-pieces with short classical excursions or vice versa). Does anyone know balanced examples similar to my own piece mentioned below? I'm quite sure that I just didn't search long enough.

In this piece I started with some classical motifs and developed them slowly into a Jazz-like athmosphere: 




Sorry to the purists who don't like crossovers - I don't want to offend anyone! But I also don't want to limit the creative process, that's at least as important to me 

The question may occur: Why do I find this combination interesting? Because I like it! And maybe I'm not the only one...

Bye, Alex


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)




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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

(^The Japanese traditional style, Enka, shows certain resemblances to Western ethnic traditions imv)


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## chipia (Apr 22, 2021)

My favorite is Nikolai Kapustin. He writes Piano Sonatas, Etudes and even Fugues with Jazz influence:


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

*Nikolai Kapustin* in particular - and almost everything by him.
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- 



- 




Peter Breiner, cadenzas in Mozart Piano Concerto no. 20.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

the second movement starting at 3:18 feels "jazzy" to me:


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

Eugen Cicero / C.P.E. Bach: Solfeggio in C minor (1965)


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Gunther Schuller coined the stye Third Stream Music as a form of Jazz with Classical aspirations. John Lewis was also a part of this short-lived movement. At least one album came out of it:

The Modern Jazz Quartet & Guests, The - Third Stream Music - 1960










I prefer the few Classical works which display an obvious debt to Jazz:

*Ravel* - _Piano Concerto in G_, 2nd movement

*Milhaud* - _La création du monde_

*Stravinsky* - _Ragtime for eleven instruments_

Then there's the Jazz composers who've written extended works for orchestra or large ensemble

*Miles Davis* - _Sketches of Spain_






*Charles Mingus* - _Let My Children Hear Music_






*Gary McFarland* - _America the Beautiful_


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

There's a few pieces by Ravel, most notably the Piano Concerto in G. It might be more classical, but I don't think you'll mind. He even wrote a "Blues" movement for his Violin Sonata. Gershwin might be more jazz, but the very famous Rhapsody in Blue and An American in Paris, as well as his Piano Concerto are well-known hybrids. Chipia and Joen_cph's suggestion of Kapustin is also very good, although it leans a bit more on the jazz side of things. I believe looking at early 20th century French composers, such as Milhaud and Honegger, is a good idea. Martinu had a jazz phase. Shostakovich wrote jazz suites. Etc, etc., etc.

One instrumentalist I would look at is Keith Jarrett. He's a top jazz pianist and he's also shown great skill in classical works, such as Shostakovich's Preludes and Fugues. I wouldn't be surprised if he incorporated some classical influences in his own playing.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

Gotta love Gershwin's piano concerto:


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

I think the influence of jazz can be heard in Bernadette Speach's music. It is not very explicit (like swinging rhythm) but her usage of harmony sometimes reminds of modern/contemporary jazz. She studied with Morton Feldman.
Reflections (mode 105)
https://moderecords.bandcamp.com/album/reflections-mode105


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

Verandai/Alex: I enjoyed your composition for flute and piano. If you like that combination, or any combo of wind instrument plus piano, you might be interested in Poulenc's various pieces for wind instruments and piano, particularly the Sonata for Flute and Piano and the Sonata for Clarinet and Piano. I don't know if any of that is really jazzy, but after hearing your composition, I thought you might like it. Here's Poulenc's Flute and Piano Sonata:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I second Miles' Sketches of Spain. Greta album!


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

So are ..... birth and.... rebirth of the cool .:angel:


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Mahler jazz


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## chipia (Apr 22, 2021)

Very Interesting: Rolf Liebermann's Concerto for Jazz Band and Symphony Orchestra
A jazzy Twelve-Tone Composition!


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> Gunther Schuller coined the stye Third Stream Music as a form of Jazz with Classical aspirations. John Lewis was also a part of this short-lived movement. At least one album came out of it:
> 
> The Modern Jazz Quartet & Guests, The - Third Stream Music - 1960
> 
> ...


I have that MJQ disc as part of a Mosaic box set. Not a favorite. I do like their _Blues on Bach_.

Also MJQ has its own version of the slow movement of the "Concerto de Aranjuez," as does Chick Corea. (Maybe others but those, along with the Miles Davis recording, are the ones in my jazz library.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Thanks a lot for all the replies! Especially Nikolai Kapustin was a great info for me, as he was totally unknown to me until now! I'm completely excited about his music so far, and will search for more!

Of course if you have some questions or reviews about my piece, feel free to ask! I'll also answer negative reviews, if my feedback is requested - as long as the discussion is objective ;-)

Thanks again, Alex

p.s. @ SanAntone: Do you mean the 3rd movement of Ravel's piano concerto (instead of 2nd)?


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## chipia (Apr 22, 2021)

Friedrich Gulda also has some jazzy compositions, like this Prelude and Fugue:





You may also look into his collection "Play Piano Play"!


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

verandai said:


> p.s. @ SanAntone: Do you mean the 3rd movement of Ravel's piano concerto (instead of 2nd)?


No. There are Jazz elements in all the movements, but the 2nd has a theme which obviously uses elements from Blues/Jazz.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)




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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

chipia said:


> You may also look into his collection "Play Piano Play"!


Second this. I love _Play Piano Play_.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Antheil's A Jazz Symphony, and Sowerby's Symphony for Jazz Orchestra are quite good.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

third stream has produced a lot of music, with different degrees of success. It's well worth of an exploration.

My favorite composer, when it comes to hybrids of jazz and classical is Alec Wilder (who's one of my absolute favorite composers period.) The octets are a great starting point, altough there's no improvisation. Think of something like Bach, Hindemith, Debussy/Ravel and Gerswhin/Raymond Scott (I'm saying Gerswhin Raymond Scott because they are more famous, but Reginald Foresythe/Red Norvo would be a more appropriate comparison) mixed together. Counterpoint, impressionistic harmonies, jazz rhythms and a very warm and tender melodic vein. Personally I absolutely adore his music.

Seldom the sun





Such a tender night





Quintet n.1 mvt 3





Her old man was suspicious





Footnote to a summer love





They needed no words





She never wore make up





Walk softly


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Another work that I really like (altough maybe less melodically successful) is Annotations of the muses, written by Johnny Richards with Johnny Smith on the guitar. I've read someone making comparison with Little house a used to live in, one of the best compositions of Frank Zappa and it makes sense, altough the work of Richards was composed much earlier.

part 1





part 2





part 3


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

A distinction should be made between jazz, classical, and a true blending of the two. There is jazz-inspired classical music such as Stravinsky's _Ebony Concerto_, Shostakovich's _Jazz Suites_, Gershwin's _Rhapsody in Blue_, and Bernstein's _Prelude, Fugue, and Riffs_. Likewise, jazz musicians have routinely covered the classics: Miles Davis and Gil Evans did Rodrigo's _Concerto de Arenjuez_; Duke Ellington did the Grieg _Peer Gynt Suites_, as well as Tchaikovsky's _Nutcracker_; Stan Kenton recorded a wild recording featuring excerpts from Wagner; and the Modern Jazz Quartet did Bach. Many classical music innovations were adopted by jazz musicians. Again, the MJQ incorporated polyphony as a tribute to Bach; Dave Brubeck and Cecil Taylor experimented with serial technique; and all manners of forms have been lifted from classical music into jazz such as the Duke Ellington "suites" and "sacred services". But can any of these ventures really be identified as a true blending if classical music and jazz where the integrity of each genre remains as important to the essence of the music?

As far as I know, the closest thing I've heard is the wonderful _Concerto for Classical Guitar and Jazz Piano_ by Claude Bolling. Bolling has composed many other pieces that blend the genres of classical music and jazz; but there is none as seamless, engaging as dynamic as the _Concerto for Classical Guitar and Jazz Piano_. While Bolling made his own recording with Alexandre Lagoya; the one that stands out features Angel Romero with George Shearing.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Luciano Berio - Laborintus II 





This is like the Jazz version of The Sinfonia.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

Coach G said:


> A distinction should be made between jazz, classical, and a true blending of the two. There is jazz-inspired classical music such as Stravinsky's _Ebony Concerto_, Shostakovich's _Jazz Suites_, Gershwin's _Rhapsody in Blue_, and Bernstein's _Prelude, Fugue, and Riffs_. Likewise, jazz musicians have routinely covered the classics: Miles Davis and Gil Evans did Rodrigo's _Concerto de Arenjuez_; Duke Ellington did the Grieg _Peer Gynt Suites_, as well as Tchaikovsky's _Nutcracker_; Stan Kenton recorded a wild recording featuring excerpts from Wagner; and the Modern Jazz Quartet did Bach. Many classical music innovations were adopted by jazz musicians. Again, the MJQ incorporated polyphony as a tribute to Bach; Dave Brubeck and Cecil Taylor experimented with serial technique; and all manners of forms have been lifted from classical music into jazz such as the Duke Ellington "suites" and "sacred services". But can any of these ventures really be identified as a true blending if classical music and jazz where the integrity of each genre remains as important to the essence of the music?
> 
> As far as I know, the closest thing I've heard is the wonderful _Concerto for Classical Guitar and Jazz Piano_ by Claude Bolling. Bolling has composed many other pieces that blend the genres of classical music and jazz; but there is none as seamless, engaging as dynamic as the _Concerto for Classical Guitar and Jazz Piano_. While Bolling made his own recording with Alexandre Lagoya; the one that stands out features Angel Romero with George Shearing.
> 
> View attachment 162464


Yes! Yes! Yes! I love the Claude Bolling Concerto for Classical Guitar and Piano. The recording and video with Angel Romero and Shearing is amazing. I bought the sheet music when I was a teenager. Awesome recommendation.


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

The last movement of Vakhtang Kakhidze's Concerto for Piano and Orchestra (1980) has a fast jazzy section (around 12:40~). The composer plays the piano and his father Djansug Kakhidze conducts. This is a very enjoyable piece.
https://cugateclassics.bandcamp.com/track/concerto-for-piano-and-orchestra


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

I am surprised that the Jacques Loussier Trio has not been mentioned he specialised in flirting with JSB and of course JSBs music lends itself to improvisation and improvisation was the basic of jazz and for me remains the main ingredient of jazz that I love the best.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

I didn't specify exactly what I'm looking for, because I didn't want to set unnecessary limitations - and also I didn't know myself what would be the biggest inspiration for me.

In retrospective I can say there were many inspiring examples, but Nikolai Kapustin really hooked me from the beginning! I'll try to find and listen to his whole music.

Another example I didn't mention so far: One of my favourite Jazz bands (Snarky Puppy) also did a crossover album with Metropole Orkest (named "Sylva").

I really like most of the pieces, but for my taste the classical part stays too much in the background (mostly accompaniment). Anyway, here some links:


my favourite track: 




second favourite: 




playlist with full album: 





@SanAntone: thanks, I'll listen again to the Ravel concerto


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I can only get the 2nd YT video listed above, the other 2 are blocked, so I am not sure what the are. But going off of the Snarky Puppy vid above, gives me a bit more to go on.

*Mhavishnu Orchestra - Apocalyopse* (with the London Symphony Orchestra)

A beast of an album.






*John McLaughlin - Mediterranean Concerto *

Guitarist from the above band.






Penderecki and Don Cherry - & The New Eternal Rhythm Orchestra - Actions

Avant-garde jazz trumpet player, plays a composition by avant-garde classical composer. If your tastes don't lean toward those genres, YMMV.






There are no clips of this (because ECM Records is very tight on what they allow on YouTube) , but Finish jazz-rock guitrarist (studied classical piano, father was a condutor), *Terje Rypdal* recorded an album with the Südfunk Symphony Orchestra called *"Whenever I seem So Far Away" *that is pretty amazing.

But this is not jazz in the sense most people think about it. There is inprivisation, but it is dark, not in the least blues based, it does not 'swing'. It is stark soundscapes, with as much 20th century classical influence as jazz.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Hi Simon,

maybe your browser settings didn't like the part of the album playlist in the URL. I've removed it in the previous post for the first link.

For the third link I can't remove it, because otherwise you can't access the full album "Sylva". But you can also search in Youtube for "Snarky puppy sylva". There you should find the official playlist as one of the first results (or as an ad). All of the links were working with my different various browsers though. Or maybe it is some geo-blocking in certain countries?


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

You might also be interested in a subgenre of jazz, known as chamber-jazz.

Unlike most jazz, this subgenre does not usually follow the head>solo>head>solo>head, etc format. Unlike standard forms of jazz, in this subgenre, the musicians that are not currently soloiing, will not just be playing chords to back up the soloist, they will be playing their own intricate lines. Also, there is hardly any bues based music with chamber-jazz. European music will be an influence, as well as some world music.

Many might not hear it, and just look at it like modern, progressive jazz. But it the influences of European classical music that I hear as the things that make them progressive.

Oregon are often pointed out as the grandfathers of chamber-jazz.






Ralph Towner, the guitarist and keyboardist from Oregon is also worth checking out for his solo guitar recordings, as well as his other ensembles he plays with.

Eberhard Weber is worth checking out.






Doninique Pifarély






Other names to check out: Billy Childs, Mark Isham, Russell Walder, Jan Garbarek, Keith Jarrett, Vijay Iyer, and many more ECM artists.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

verandai said:


> Hi Simon,
> 
> maybe your browser settings didn't like the part of the album playlist in the URL. I've removed it in the previous post for the first link.
> 
> For the third link I can't remove it, because otherwise you can't access the full album "Sylva". But you can also search in Youtube for "Snarky puppy sylva". There you should find the official playlist as one of the first results (or as an ad). All of the links were working with my different various browsers though. Or maybe it is some geo-blocking in certain countries?


Oh, if the other clips are Snarky Puppy, then I am already familiar with them. I have seen Snarky Puppy live every time they've played in LA, Big fan.

Although, it does seem like they are getting more credit by younger people for coming up with something new, when in reality, they are pretty much a standard fusion band. Not much different (they've added horns) in concept, or execution than quite a few bands from the past. Return to Forever, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Brand X, Iceberg, Bruford, and others.


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## Opisthokont (Dec 16, 2021)

You might be interested in some third stream jazz: I think this is the most famous third-stream album. It includes stuff from both jazz and classical composers.

You might also be interested in John O' Gallaghers Anton Webern Project: which afaik is improvisation built on top of Webern works: 




I would put Anthony Davis somewhere right exactly between Jazz and Classical (and a lot of other stuff, incredibly 'polystylism'


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Simon Moon said:


> Oregon are often pointed out as the grandfathers of chamber-jazz.


more the grandsons, I mean chamber jazz existed already in the fifties with bands like the Red Norvo trio or the Gramercy five of Artie Shaw


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

Jacques Loussier is my favorite!
Except Bach (the main body of his work), he has "treated" Satie, Beethoven, Ravel, Vivaldi, Chopin.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Simon Moon said:


> Oh, if the other clips are Snarky Puppy, then I am already familiar with them. I have seen Snarky Puppy live every time they've played in LA, Big fan.
> 
> Although, it does seem like they are getting more credit by younger people for coming up with something new, when in reality, they are pretty much a standard fusion band.


I didn't know them since about 1 year ago, and became a big fan in a short time!

That may be the case, that other bands created similar music before, but for me they're pretty unique! Some days ago I found out that they'll also come to my city in autumn! And just received the tickets for the concert.

That was a little off-topic, I love many tracks of SP, but that was not the music I was looking for in this thread. The only crossover album (Sylva) wasn't interesting in the classical parts (for me). I still love many of the songs. But the only interesting non-jazz section in this album was the piano solo in "the curtain" (10:12 in 



) - but I also wouldn't call it "classical".

Anyway, I've received enough interesting examples and ideas for now - thanks again!


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Opisthokont said:


> You might be interested in some third stream jazz: I think this is the most famous third-stream album. It includes stuff from both jazz and classical composers.
> 
> You might also be interested in John O' Gallaghers Anton Webern Project: which afaik is improvisation built on top of Webern works:
> 
> ...


Good recommendations.

I was just coming back to this thread today to mention Anthony Davis.

I love musicians that are able to utilize different types of music, and make it an organic whole. Instead of say, classical passages tacked on to jazz.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I've been listening to the Lieberman "Concerto for Jazz Band and Orchestra" - 
the Sauter-Finnegan/Reiner/CSO recording from 1954....on "Pristine" label, by Mark Obert-Thorn - 

This is a great recording!! Obert-thorn's remastering is terrific sounding stereo...wonderful presence and spatial spectrum..
Some great solo work, big band ensemble stuff and exquisite sounding percussion...I don't have a score of this work ,so I'm not sure who is playing what, but some of the big "swing band" is really riveting!! terrific playing...

"Pristine" is definitely a label worth checking out - on another disc, they released a dynamite version of Ravel "La Valse" is splendid sound - Reiner/PittsSO from 4/47.....probably the best I've ever heard - don't be put off by the recording date - the sound is very fine - with an "in your face" presence, that reveals lots of detail, while also providing the great sweeps of sound...


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

George Crumb: Eine Kleine Mitternachtmusik (A Little Midnight Music) (2001), Ruminations on 'Round Midnight by Thelonious Monk


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

In another thread, I mentioned John and Mirjana Lewis (she is his wife and a classical harpsichordist), also mentioned above, who did jazz (him) and classical (her) versions of selections from the Goldberg Variations and the Well Tempered Clavier. Very well done. Famed jazz saxophonist Lee Konitz collaborated with composer and arranger Ohad Talmor and a string quartet on some partly improvised arrangements of Debussy and Satie. Hubert Laws did a classic jazz album called Rite of Spring where he uses some well-known classical themes, including Stravinsky, as the album title suggests.

In the album by a jazz trio consisting of Andre Previn, Ray Brown and Mundell Lowe called Old Friends, made from a live performance given as part of an annual classical music festival in California directed at the time by Previn (who then was the conductor of the LA Philharmonic), bassist Ray Brown acknowledges Previn's classical music background and the classical music context of the festival by working a number of classical music themes into his solos, including a lengthy riff based on the overture from Mozart's Don Giovanni. Miles Davis, who briefly studied at Juilliard, also works classical themes into his music.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I enjoy both, though I do listen to CM more.

Anyway, here's an obvious one it seems no one has posted:


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I enjoy both, though I do listen to CM more.
> 
> Anyway, here's an obvious one it seems no one has posted:


Terrific recording, I'm a big fan of Earl Wild, whom I was able to meet as a young child. However, I consider Rhapsody in Blue classical music, not crossover.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Thanks a lot for all the input! I'm still not through with listening to all of them! 

My favourite of the new music I've listened to is still Nikolai Kapustin! I'm sure my fascination is connected to myself playing piano. It's a pity that many of the Youtube-Videos of Kapustin have a bad audio quality. I generally like the score-videos to read along the sheets.


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## jamjar (Jan 6, 2016)

Bud Powell




 Art Tatum




 Art Tatum




 Erroll Garner

All improvising on classical themes


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