# David Bowie dies



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

This hit me harder than I would have expected. One of my heroes from my youth. RIP.

Link.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Very sad news. His latest album was just released on Friday. He was a fine musician.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Shocking! He wasn't _that_ old, was he?

I haven't followed him for decades, but I listened to a lot of his music in the '70s and still rather like the 'Berlin' albums.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

69, cancer apparently.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Shock indeed. Part of the music soundtrack to my early teens. Aw man!


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2016)

Dare I say that, while I was not a great fan, I recognise that he was one of rock's greats? I was a fan of his 'Berlin period' and do like both _Heroes _and _Low_. I'll listen to them today in memoriam.


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## Biwa (Aug 3, 2015)

This really knocked the wind out of me, too. I had no idea he was ill. 
I especially love his work in the 70s. Wonder what I will play first. Still reeling from the news...

RIP :angel:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

From his last album, the excellent Blackstar. This song (and the video) is brutal now that we know he realized he was near death.






As two commenters put it:

"That beautiful SOB. He turned his own death into artistic expression. Genius to the end.﻿"
"This video is so unsettling and tragic now. Imagine being in his place, on this shoot, lying in a deathbed that's make-believe to everyone except yourself.﻿"


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2016)

True innovator.

RIP.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> From his last album, the excellent Blackstar. This song (and the video) is brutal now that we know he realized he was near death.
> 
> [
> As two commenters put it:
> ...


They suggest that he directed it al himself, almost to the minute .


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Very sad. Such a unique voice, included in all that talent.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> This hit me harder than I would have expected. One of my heroes from my youth. RIP.
> 
> Link.


RIP David Bowie.

First Boulez and now Bowie. Who's next I wonder...


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2016)

I heard the rumour that he choose his own "momentum"


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## nbergeron (Dec 30, 2015)

Incredibly sad to hear that. What an original performer he was.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Very, very sad news. One of music's true (and, impressively, _constant_) innovators. 
Interesting and not altogether surprising to hear his 'Berlin' albums - _Heroes_, _Lodger_ and the incomparable _Low_ - cited on here. They are surely the ones that most closely approach the classical style (ask Philip Glass, who adapted two of them).
Certainly, the goosebumps I get from this, below, are as intense as those from, say, Bruckner 8. 
Groundbreaker, gamechanger, genius: rest in peace.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Hearing about Lemmy's death was sad enough but this is a total shocker - I know he had a heart op some time back but I thought he was all set for 20 years of near-retirement and domestic bliss. What a great legacy, though - especially the eleven 'proper' studio albums from 1970-1980. There aren't many (anyone?) who could keep up the high quality for a whole decade and with such stylistic diversity.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Steve Wright said:


> Very, very sad news. One of music's true (and, impressively, _constant_) innovators.


can I ask you what he innovated? Because I've listened rock for many years and while I've never been a huge fan of him I really like some of his songs, but I see many persons describing him as a innovator and I don't know what should be considered his innovations.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

A true original. Ziggy forever...


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

It's astoundingly sad news... Shocking too because when I saw he released an album 3 days ago I was saying to myself "Sweet, I've been waiting for it for awhile and I hope he follows with another soon". What a loss for everyone, he was my favorite musician of the contemporary music world and there aren't many I enjoy.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

elgars ghost said:


> (...) What a great legacy, though - especially the eleven 'proper' studio albums from 1970-1980. There aren't many (anyone?) who could keep up the high quality for a whole decade and with such stylistic diversity.


Totally agreed. That sequence from _The Man Who Sold The World_ to _Scary Monsters_... gems all, and so fascinating how he reinvented himself each time.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Holy *****! Was totally not expecting this...


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

norman bates said:


> can I ask you what he innovated? Because I've listened rock for many years and while I've never been a huge fan of him I really like some of his songs, but I see many persons describing him as a innovator and I don't know what should be considered his innovations.


Others can add their own thoughts to this - his contributions to performance art and pop music-as-theatre come immediately to mind - but to take one specific example, I think his beautiful, atmospheric 1977 album _Low_ was instrumental in the genesis of both synthpop and ambient pop. Without _Low_, we'd have no (or at least a very different) New Order, Human League and many others. Of course, a great deal of credit must go to his similarly brilliant collaborator Brian Eno.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Bowie is considered an innovator within the musically conservative pop/rock medium. He never diverged from the basic recycled song structures but he did dress them in interesting ways—within such a limited genre, I suppose that superficial dramatic accoutrements count for a lot.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

*David Bowie* (1947 - 2016) R.I.P.

:angel:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Steve Wright said:


> Others can add their own thoughts to this - his contributions to performance art and pop music-as-theatre come immediately to mind - but to take one specific example, I think his beautiful, atmospheric 1977 album _Low_ was instrumental in the genesis of both synthpop and ambient pop. Without _Low_, we'd have no (or at least a very different) New Order, Human League and many others. Of course, *a great deal of credit must go to his similarly brilliant collaborator Brian Eno*.


I guess that in fact was Eno the main responsible for that aspect.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Personal memory: Going to see him in Ottawa with my sister Maureen in 1987. She was a Bowie fanatic. I wasn't, really, I just hoped he would put on a good show, because she had never been to a big rock concert before. And he did, I think it exceeded both of our expectations. Those songs were high quality indeed. Never realised how good Bowie really was until then.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2016)

Morimur said:


> He never diverged from the basic recycled song structures


That's simply not true. It is true that not all he did was an innovation, and it's also true that attitude, style, artifice were a significant part of the whole. But anyone remotely familiar with his work, and the work of others in the pop/rock medium can see that he did diverge from 'basic recycled song structures'.


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Biwa said:


> This really knocked the wind out of me, too. I had no idea he was ill.


Apparently, very few knew that he was terminally ill. I was utterly stunned to read this this morning on a news website.

RIP indeed... a very special, original talent.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I listened a lot to his music when I was younger so this was a shock for me.
Really sad.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> That's simply not true. It is true that not all he did was an innovation, and it's also true that attitude, style, artifice were a significant part of the whole. But anyone remotely familiar with his work, and the work of others in the pop/rock medium can see that he did diverge from 'basic recycled song structures'.


So his latest and final album is being hailed as his most adventurous by rock critics-I just don't hear it. He employs some interesting production but the structure of his songs is so mind-numbingly repetitive that I struggled to get past the third track. For example, listen to the backbeat of some the songs-these are just very basic drum patterns that go nowhere; there's very little development beyond 'oh this sounds cool, let me beat you to death with it'. Where's the edgy, avant-garde Bowie who supposedly revolutionized music? Well, he simply doesn't exist. But within the confines of rock & pop, looking 'weird' and using a drum machine is enough to earn you the 'maverick' label. I am not hating, just sayin'.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

What I find curious about the video with Lennox is facially how much she looks like Bowie during his 'thin white duke' era (apart from the daft mascara panda eyes) - it's almost as if he's doing a duet with a ghost of himself.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

R.I.P. Davied Bowie. Very unfortunate that so many of the 60s-70s generation of musicians are passing away (Lemmy of Motorhead recently as well).

Favourite songs by him: 'Young Americans' and 'Ground Control to Major Tom'.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2016)

Low was my favorite Bowie release followed by Heroes and Scary Monsters. While Low was a collab with Eno, the only track that strikes as being overtly Eno is Warszawa. I do love that one, though. Side one is pure Bowie with some brilliant songs--that whole first side, really, was brilliant. "Be My Wife" "New Career in a New Town" "Always Crashing in the Same Car"--every song. Side two (obviously I listened to this for many years on vinyl) was the more cerebral side. "Weeping Wall" was killer. and he had a great band--Carlos Alomar, George Murray, Dennis Davis, Ricky Gardner. I saw him live on that tour. I was surprised that most of the band was black. I think he had Roger Powell doing Eno's synth lines. They opened with Warszawa. One of the best shows I had ever seen. Still there were dimwits yelling for "Changes" and "Suffragette City." No, guys, I don't think he's going to do those.

I think it's fair to say Bowie was one of the greatest songwriters and performers of our time. I don't think that Bowie was an innovator in the sense of inventing new styles or genres but he was an innovator of rock and pop. He did things with those genres nobody else had done until he blazed the trail. 

The only other time I saw Bowie live was when he actually played in Iggy's band as the organist. And he stayed pretty much in the background like the other band members. I've seen Iggy a million times but seeing him with Bowie in the band was a real treat. A buddy saw Bowie a bunch of times and remembered at one show, the music before the show started was the entirety of Kraftwerk's "Radioactivity." And the show opened with that scene from An Andalusian Dog where the woman gets her eyeball slit open with a razor. I don't remember what tour that was but I didn't see it anyway.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

norman bates said:


> *can I ask you what he innovated?* Because I've listened rock for many years and while I've never been a huge fan of him I really like some of his songs, but I see many persons describing him as a innovator and I don't know what should be considered his innovations.


Everything. Literally everything you can think of that a contemporary music artist does and controls, he already did and controlled.

And your inquiry is faulty because you generalize him into "rock," which even by arbitrary metrics, he shifted out of maybe a decade into his career.

You could pick a random song from every year of his career, and it will sound different and unique. The scope and lyrical content, the orchestration, the rhythm, the dynamics, the attitude and persona, the theatrics -- you _cannot_ pin him to anything. Nearly 50 effing years of change.

Not one artist that came after him was _not_ influenced by him in some respect -- whether that is musically or artistically, or how to market _the artist_ in the public sphere, or crossing-genres, or beyond all else, how to remain relevant in mass popular culture without remaining trite and unoriginal and bland, yet also retain your style and passion that has so many endeared to your music. Yes, he did that. And so few others ever have.

Bowie was absolutely an innovator, a one-of-a-kind, unrivaled artist.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Boulez was an innovator—to say the least. Bowie wrote jingles and relied on Eno and Visconti to dress them up in fashionable electronic beats.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2016)

Morimur said:


> So his latest and final album is being hailed as his most adventurous by rock critics-I just don't hear it. He employs some interesting production but the structure of his songs is so mind-numbingly repetitive that I struggled to get past the third track. For example, listen to the backbeat of some the songs-these are just very basic drum patterns that go nowhere; there's very little development beyond 'oh this sounds cool, let me beat you to death with it'. Where's the edgy, avant-garde Bowie who supposedly revolutionized music? Well, he simply doesn't exist. But within the confines of rock & pop, looking 'weird' and using a drum machine is enough to earn you the 'maverick' label. I am not hating, just sayin'.


I've not heard his latest album and cannot comment. However, I was rejecting your 'never' (#23).

I grew up in a pop/rock mad household, with three older siblings from whom I learned much. Even I, a musically inexperienced 10 year old, could hear the differences between the mainstream pop that had been our domestic background and _Space Oddity._


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I never bought a Bowie album, but I admired the man for his healthy attitude and sense of detachment from the ridiculous idolatry of the pop music world.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2016)

Morimur said:


> Bowie wrote jingles


I've got as little Bowie as Boulez (ie very little) but I think this is somewhat unkind for someone that achieved so much in his chosen artistic field. You don't seem to like "popular music" which is fine, but a blanket put-down such as this simply demonstrates your general disdain for popular music, it seems to me. (To criticise a pop song for an unvarying rhythm is like criticising water for being wet.)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Avey said:


> Everything. Literally everything you can think of that a contemporary music artist does and controls, he already did and controlled.
> 
> And your inquiry is faulty because you generalize him into "rock," which even by arbitrary metrics, he shifted out of maybe a decade into his career.
> 
> ...


to say everything is like saying nothing, if you don't make specific examples. For instance the ambient sound mentioned before on Low is the one Eno was using on his own stuff like on Another green world, on pieces like Becalmed, Spirit drifting etc. And Eno was influenced by other stuff, like the band Harmonia, certain pieces made by Miles Davis and other things).
After that... there many other musicians and bands who have had a absolutely unique approach, but often they weren't influential because they are little known. 
I mean, I really like songs like Quicksand or Life on mars, so I'm not saying this because I dislike his music, but simply I'm curious what should be considered his innovations.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Steve Reich on Bowie's passing:



> "I have great admiration for David Bowie. We only had a few moments of contact. One was back in 1976 when he was at Music for 18 Musicians in Berlin and then made his beautiful Weeping Wall. Years later at the Bottom Line in 1978 during the ECM '18' release concert we finally met and I was invited to see David Bowie on Broadway in The Elephant Man. His performance was riveting as one watched this incredibly handsome man create a character of freakish ugliness. More recently I was struck by his deeply sad yet commanding voice in the Love is Lost remix with Clapping Music. I'm proud to have made even a minutely small contribution to David Bowie's incredibly varied and influential musical output. He was an absolutely brilliant and original artist whose impact was felt across many mediums."


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2016)

norman bates said:


> to say everything is like saying nothing, if you don't make specific examples. For instance the ambient sound mentioned before on Low is the one Eno was using on his own stuff like on Another green world, on pieces like Becalmed, Spirit drifting etc. And Eno was influenced by other stuff, like the band Harmonia, certain pieces made by Miles Davis and other things).
> After that... there many other musicians and bands who have had a absolutely unique approach, but often they weren't influential because they are little known.
> I mean, I really like songs like Quicksand or Life on mars, so I'm not saying this because I dislike his music, but simply I'm curious what should be considered his innovations.


I think 'innovative' is an overused term. Few artists can lay claim to real innovation (though their fans might try) - most would acknowledge that they are building on the work of others. Your point about Eno's work coming before Bowie's needs to bear in mind that Roxy Music and Bowie were contemporary "innovators", possibly feeding off each other in the same way as has been documented about The Beatles and The Beach Boys. The development of musical cultures is not simplistically linear, and proceeds in fits and starts. For example, it seems to me odd that pop/rock took quite a long time to generate musicians who acknowledge a debt to Kraftwerk's electronic innovation in the early 70s; the electro-pop craze didn't begin until 3-4 years later.

Collaborations also make it difficult to attribute "innovation" to a single individual. It seems a bit harsh to suggest that it was either Eno or Plank or Visconti who were the real innovators behind Bowie's Berlin albums.

Lastly, Eno's "innovation" was the particular combination of icon, style, music, self-characterisation that had such a profound influence on the culture of the time. Where some saw only a chameleon-charlatan, others saw a symbol, a beacon of individuality that appealed over time to so many. Bowie's output was sufficiently sustained that a succession of angst-ridden teens took turns to 'get' what he stood for. I didn't get it when I was 12-15 - though I could fully understand my sister (2 years older than me) getting it while I watched, but I did when I was 18-20, while the older were already beginning to lament the lost Bowie of Ziggy etc.

I can't think of any comparable act that had such an impact for such a long time.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> Very sad. Such a unique voice, included in all that talent.


He did have a lovely voice, to judge from the one Bowie record in my collection. (I blush to admit that it is/was 'Little Drummer Boy' with Bing Crosby... or did I hallucinate that unlikely duet?) I was always a little creeped out by his persona, having been traumatised by the movie Labyrinth as a child, but he was a distinguished and memorable performer. RIP.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Figleaf said:


> He did have a lovely voice, to judge from the one Bowie record in my collection.


The other artist who comes immediately to my mind when I hear Bowie's magnificent voice, is the amazing, perhaps even triggering, figure and voice of Arthur Brown. The Crazy World of Arthur Brown, especially the Fire side of the album, will certainly provoke similar thoughts among anyone hearing it.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I mourn the loss of David Bowie as I do most every artist, for we as a culture are poorer for such loss.
I admit to not being a great Bowie fan. I considered the man a theatre artist more so than a musician. He was talented with costuming, makeup, performance styles. These, to me, seemed stronger points than his songwriting, perhaps. Still, he penned some good tunes, and I have hummed my share of David Bowie over the years.

Upon hearing of his death yesterday, I immediately went to my record shelves to pull some of his LPs to play. Interestingly, the first album I saw, on the floor and leaning against the record shelf, was _David Bowie: Fame and Fashion_, a collection of greatest hits on RCA AFL1-4919. (I admit to being initially haunted by the fact that this particular record was lying in the open, but I soon remembered that sometime last week for some reason or other I had taken the disc off the shelf and set it there. No great spiritual sign, this event.)

I decided to open my listening homage with this album. I put Side A on my trusty VPI Scoutmaster, cranked up the volume a tad beyond what I generally would listen at, and settled down for a hearing of "Space Oddity," "Changes", "Starman", and "1984." Which is as far as I got, lifting the tonearm out of the groove before "Young Americans" or "Fame" could play. The reason? The sound was so awful. I don't mean Bowie's music. I mean the production pressing. The sound was harsh, shrieky, brittle. Not at all like the Bowie music I remembered.

Looking back over the cover of the album I noticed a note on the upper left corner of the front jacket: "DIGITALLY REMASTERED." Could that be it?

Returning back to my shelf I pulled a 1971 copy of RCA AFL1-4623, _Hunky Dory_ -- my favorite Bowie album. No digital remastering here. Putting the disc on the VPI table I settled down again for a listen to the art of David Bowie, starting on Side A with "Changes". And ... ah! There it was! Sound the way sound should sound. Glorious presence, real sounding instrumental textures and timbres, sound stage depth, and that familiar voice.

I listened to that entire album, twice. Highlights for me are the splendid "Life on Mars?" (maybe my favorite Bowie song) and "Kooks". And as a sometime guitar player I appreciate "Andy Warhol" (the guitar sound of which is rich and glorious on this album); and as a sometime fan of Bob Dylan I admire "Song for Bob Dylan" which could be fitted onto any Bob Dylan album without missing a beat or causing anyone to bat an eye. A wonderful piece.










So ... we may have lost the artist, but much of his art survives, and that is a good thing. I will not debate the value of Bowie's music in the panoply of innovative songwriting. But I will occasionally listen to his albums, especially _Hunky Dory_.

By the way, if anyone out there is game for a "digitally remastered" copy of _Fame and Fashion_, attend the coming spring yard sales in my neighborhood. I'm sure you'll find a copy there. Cheap!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> I think 'innovative' is an overused term. Few artists can lay claim to real innovation (though their fans might try) - most would acknowledge that they are building on the work of others. Your point about Eno's work coming before Bowie's needs to bear in mind that Roxy Music and Bowie were contemporary "innovators", possibly feeding off each other in the same way as has been documented about The Beatles and The Beach Boys. The development of musical cultures is not simplistically linear, and proceeds in fits and starts. For example, it seems to me odd that pop/rock took quite a long time to generate musicians who acknowledge a debt to Kraftwerk's electronic innovation in the early 70s; the electro-pop craze didn't begin until 3-4 years later.
> 
> Collaborations also make it difficult to attribute "innovation" to a single individual. It seems a bit harsh to suggest that it was either Eno or Plank or Visconti who were the real innovators behind Bowie's Berlin albums.


why harsh?
If you find that sound on the albums made years before by one of the two, and the one who's known for his crucial role in the development of ambient music (but as I've said, even Eno took inspirations for that from other artists) I don't see why I should say that Bowie was the innovator.
It seems to me that especially in pop music there's this need to justify the love for the music of the big icons always with the excuse of the innovation, and I really don't know why. It isn't enough to say that one has written great songs and that has done interesting albums for a long time?
Why took the merits from others?
It's like when people say that Miles Davis was always innovating when he simply took a lot of real innovators for his albums (and I'm a huge fan of Davis and his discography).
And I'm not saying that Bowie wasn't a innovator, but if he's considered like this because of the ambient pop stuff on Low and Heroes, well no, I have many doubts that he has merits for that.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

and by the way



MacLeod said:


> For example, it seems to me odd that pop/rock took quite a long time to generate musicians who acknowledge a debt to Kraftwerk's electronic innovation in the early 70s; the electro-pop craze didn't begin until 3-4 years later.


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

norman bates said:


> and by the way


You're link is quite a bit earlier but my favourite weird ahead-of-its-time (but still completely 60's) electronic pop music:


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

dogen said:


> I've got as little Bowie as Boulez (ie very little) but I think this is somewhat unkind for someone that achieved so much in his chosen artistic field. You don't seem to like "popular music" which is fine, but a blanket put-down such as this simply demonstrates your general disdain for popular music, it seems to me. (To criticise a pop song for an unvarying rhythm is like criticising water for being wet.)


And how dare water be wet? How dare it!


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Morimur said:


> So his latest and final album is being hailed as his most adventurous by rock critics-I just don't hear it. He employs some interesting production but the structure of his songs is so mind-numbingly repetitive that I struggled to get past the third track. For example, listen to the backbeat of some the songs-these are just very basic drum patterns that go nowhere; there's very little development beyond 'oh this sounds cool, let me beat you to death with it'. Where's the edgy, avant-garde Bowie who supposedly revolutionized music? Well, he simply doesn't exist. But within the confines of rock & pop, looking 'weird' and using a drum machine is enough to earn you the 'maverick' label. I am not hating, just sayin'.


It's doubtful that Bowie needs defending from your superfluous opinions about his legacy. There is ample evidence to the contrary just in the massive outpour of grief from the world, let alone Bowie's work, which apparently is lost on you and that's fine (Like Schoenberg said "If it is art, it is not for all, & if it is for all, it is not art.") but what are you on this thread for? Some of us are here to pay our respects to the man, I mean have some tact, the man's not even in the ground yet.

No one ever said Bowie revolutionized music as a whole but he did revolutionize his genre, especially as a solo artist and I'd venture to say far more revolutionary than anything you yourself will ever contribute to mankind in terms of artistic expression.

I'm not hating pal, just sayin'


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## Iean (Nov 17, 2015)

RIP David Bowie. Thank you for giving me many reasons to believe that pop music is not synonymous to brainless jingles. And thank you for giving me "The Next Day", an album so special to me during one of the most challenging moments of my life.:angel:


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2016)

norman bates said:


> why harsh?


For the reason I've already given. Spotting the influence of Eno does not mean that he and only he is the innovator - assuming that it can be established that the album is in any way innovative. I'm not making claims for it.



norman bates said:


> I don't see why I should say that Bowie was the innovator.


No one's asking you to. I already said that 'innovation' is an overused term.



norman bates said:


> It seems to me that especially in pop music there's this need to justify the love for the music of the big icons always with the excuse of the innovation


Not especially in pop music, if the claims made for the alleged innovators in classical made here are anything to go by. Nor do I see a "need to justify" with an "excuse". However, the liking of music is, for some, a tribal matter, perhaps more so when you're a teen looking for a look and a lifestyle, and in explaining one's allegiances, 'innovation' is an all-too-easy label.

I am slightly puzzled by the apparent "need" to knock Bowie by questioning one of the claims made for him. As you say, he wrote some great songs and did interesting albums for a long time.



norman bates said:


> and by the way


Your point is?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> For the reason I've already given. Spotting the influence of Eno does not mean that he and only he is the innovator - assuming that it can be established that the album is in any way innovative. I'm not making claims for it.


considering that Eno had done that on his albums years before to me seems pretty clear that it's very difficult to say that Bowie had a role as a innovator for that.



MacLeod said:


> Not especially in pop music, if the claims made for the alleged innovators in classical made here are anything to go by. Nor do I see a "need to justify" with an "excuse". However, the liking of music is, for some, a tribal matter, perhaps more so when you're a teen looking for a look and a lifestyle, and in explaining one's allegiances, 'innovation' is an all-too-easy label.
> 
> I am slightly puzzled by the apparent "need" to knock Bowie by questioning one of the claims made for him. As you say, he wrote some great songs and did interesting albums for a long time.


In fact it's not my intention, and I'm a huge fan of a lot of musicians who weren't innovators at all. And I've really liked even the last Blackstar. 
It's just that I've often read about him as a innovator but always without descriptions of what his musical innovations are supposed to be.



MacLeod said:


> Your point is?


a piece released in 1962 that sounds like the music of Kraftwerk and on the rest of the album there were already things that can be considered ambient pop (and Scott was already producing those things in the fifties). And also minimalism, but that's another story.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> It's doubtful that Bowie needs defending from your superfluous opinions about his legacy. There is ample evidence to the contrary just in the massive outpour of grief from the world, let alone Bowie's work, which apparently is lost on you and that's fine (Like Schoenberg said "If it is art, it is not for all, & if it is for all, it is not art.") but what are you on this thread for? Some of us are here to pay our respects to the man, I mean have some tact, the man's not even in the ground yet.
> 
> No one ever said Bowie revolutionized music as a whole but he did revolutionize his genre, especially as a solo artist and I'd venture to say far more revolutionary than anything you yourself will ever contribute to mankind in terms of artistic expression.
> 
> I'm not hating pal, just sayin'


What are forums for, fella? I am critiquing Bowie's music and not resorting to personal attacks.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2016)

norman bates said:


> considering that Eno had done that on his albums years before to me seems pretty clear that it's very difficult to say that Bowie had a role as a innovator for that.


So, we both agree that applying the term 'innovator' needs further elaboration. If Bowie was an innovator, we'd like a clear explanation of what it is that was innovative about his art.

We also agree that given the inevitable 'heritage' that one artist uses and then passes on, it's difficult to point to any one individual or group and assert that they were the innovators or originators. So, Kraftwerk are acknowledged by a number of electro-pop acts of the late 70s and early 80s as a source of inspiration, but Kraftwerk were themselves inheritors of the work that had gone before in pop/rock and electronic music technology. Raymond Scott was an inheritor and to some extent a creator.

I would argue that the use of the term 'innovation' should not be narrowly confined to the idea of 'creation of the new', but should include the 'new use of the old'. Whilst I can't point to musical specifics that Bowie 'innovated', I have no trouble accepting the idea that, according to my experience of his work as I grew up with him, most notably during the 70s, his artistic output was distinctly different from what had gone before and from what was going on around him. To the extent that he can be identified as the main creator in what was often a collaborative enterprise, he was 'innovative'.


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## groofay (Jan 11, 2016)

I don't care whether or not Bowie was an "innovator." For most of the 1970's, he was two steps ahead of the zeitgeist. And he made several albums that are relevant to this day. That is far more than enough for me to consider him relevant and, indeed, revolutionary (an overused term, but not so much here)--at least within popular music. 

And I may be biased because I'm young enough that Bowie's death is the only "major" transformation I've seen him go through, but "Blackstar" is already one of my favorite albums of his, along with "Low" and "Station to Station." I don't need it to be boundary-pushing, abstract, revolutionary, any of that. It's an extremely expressive record, with Bowie on top form in every way, and a saxophonist who seriously knows what he's doing (Donny McCaslin). And it's a man making a record while literally on the edge of death, giving it his considerable best. I find that to be a magnificent achievement among pop/rock musicians. He made his own death into performance art.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Morimur said:


> What are forums for, fella? I am critiquing Bowie's music and not resorting to personal attacks.


Sorry friendo, I felt as though you needed a few light slams.:scold:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> I would argue that the use of the term 'innovation' should not be narrowly confined to the idea of 'creation of the new', but should include the 'new use of the old'. Whilst I can't point to musical specifics that Bowie 'innovated', I have no trouble accepting the idea that, according to my experience of his work as I grew up with him, most notably during the 70s, his artistic output was distinctly different from what had gone before and from what was going on around him. To the extent that he can be identified as the main creator in what was often a collaborative enterprise, he was 'innovative'.


I can agree with that, but then the innovators in pop music are literally hundreds if not thousands, not just a few.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

norman bates said:


> I can agree with that, but then the innovators in pop music are literally hundreds if not thousands, not just a few.


And why not? OK by me.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

He has a number of songs I really like, over all I don't think I quite understand his appeal. Most of his music just seems pretty good to me. He does seem to have a unique style and vision.

I recently picked up Twin Peaks _The Entire Mystery_, both seasons and the feature film in blu ray, it comes with 90 minutes of extended/deleted scenes and Bowie features prominently in many of them. His character seems fascinating. I kind of wish Bowie's and Chris Isaak's character's stories were expanded on. Lynch creates such a compelling mystery at the start of _Fire Walk With Me_ around these two detectives the latter part of the film almost seems anti-climactic.

RIP David Bowie


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

I was shocked and deeply saddened by the death of David Bowie. It is too easy in this media and social network driven age to post gushing and empty sentiments about a death celebrity and especially a pop star, but Bowie's death feels completely different. For many of us Bowie's music formed a tangled and magical soundtrack to our lives, even if we weren't aware of it at the time - becoming a teenager, first love, addictions, crazy times and the sheer joy of being alive. Very few artists have touched so many lives and we feel we have lost a friend and a guide.

Bowie wasn't just about music; he was also about image - looking good and cool and believing in your own vision however far fetched that might be - he was the genie many of us wanted to be. He was also a true superstar and he could fill any stadium in any city in the world. Throughout my life I have been fascinated by Bowie's lyrics and snatches of them from time to time seem to sum up a situation in a perfect way - he wrote as well and meaningful as any great literature and made everything look so easy.

I will miss David Bowie and may he rest in peace; we truly will not see his like again and he will always be one of the greatest artists of all time, loved and admired by many people of all ages and creeds around the planet.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Thanks Alydon, that's very much how I feel. On another board the question was asked: which celebrity deaths moved you more than anyone else's - and when I thought about it, Bowie is the first one that literally moved me to tears. And at 58, I have seen my share of celebrity deaths.


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## Iean (Nov 17, 2015)

For those who are still not convinced that David Bowie is an innovator :

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/6843061/david-bowie-influence-genres-rock-star


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Hated his music and theatrics, didn't like him and hated the whole glam rock mess.
RIP


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Iean said:


> For those who are still not convinced that David Bowie is an innovator :
> 
> http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/6843061/david-bowie-influence-genres-rock-star


this is an article about his influence, and innovation is a completely different thing. He popularized different things because he was incredibly famous while many innovators aren't famous at all, and onestly some things mentioned are very questionable. For instance to say that he was a influence on grunge (that wasn't innovative at all) just because Cobain covered The man who sold the world on his unplugged album (made when grunge wasn't exactly at the beginning) does not have a lot of sense.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Bowie was a true original. One of a kind. A fantastically creative musician.

He leaves behind dozens of wonderful songs that will inspire musicians long into the future.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

I've been listening a Blackstar spiral all day.
What a wonderful record it is.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

An interesting and candid conversation from 1979.


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## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

Morimur said:


> Bowie is considered an innovator within the musically conservative pop/rock medium...within such a limited genre, I suppose that superficial dramatic accoutrements count for a lot.


Pop and rock is absolutely not limited, you only think so because you're looking at it from only a harmonic/rhythmic perspective. Let's say you sat an average person down (who didn't know music theory) Which set of 3 music pieces would they think sound more dissimilar to each other?
















or
















I think most people would say the second set of songs sound at least as dissimilar to each other,m which goes to show there's far more that can be explored in music than just rhythm and tonality.

It's also true that if any rock song had the motif development of Beehtoven or the rythmic diversity of Boulez, that it would sound incredibly contrived and silly, and so simplicity is required. Doing a lot with a little is a valuable art.

That's not to say pop artists overlook the rhythm and harmony. Rather it's how the many other elements complement the rythmic/harmonic ones and vice versa.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

peterh said:


> Pop and rock is absolutely not limited, you only think so because you're looking at it from only a harmonic/rhythmic perspective. Let's say you sat an average person down (who didn't know music theory. Which set of 3 music pieces would they think sound more dissimilar to each other?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I nearly lapsed into a coma while attempting to listen to the second set of mind-numbingly repetitive 'songs'. Horrible.


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## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

I don't care what your value judgements of the songs are, it's just true that most average people would say that the second set of songs are at least as dissimilar sounding as the first.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

peterh said:


> I don't care what your value judgements of the songs are, it's just true that most average people would say that the second set of songs are at least as dissimilar sounding as the first.


I don't care what you think most average people think. :tiphat:


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## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

I think what the average person thinks does matter, because you should be able to appreciate music without knowing theory or much about the musical creation process (which is what I mean by average person)


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

BBC two showing : The Last Five Years it on Sunday January 7th 
21.00 UK. time


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