# Human Suffering



## Polednice

I want to ask this because of a video I saw in the "Philosophical Question for Atheists" thread, posted by Philip.

I won't post the video here because I want the discussion to remain general, but it illustrates an uneasy feeling that I have sometimes. Essentially, I may be doing something comparatively inane - listening to music, surfing the web, writing an essay on _Beowulf_ - when, in an instant, I will just think: "Hang on a minute, there are hundreds of thousands of people suffering unimaginable pain right now. How can you just sit at your desk in such comfort, carrying on with things that matter only to people with lives as easy as yours?"

Of course, I can't save the world. This thought doesn't give me the impetus to get on a plane and join some charitable organisation. I do my own share of volunteering here at home (people suffer all round the world, after all). It's just that horrible thought that, no matter what, no matter when, there is always an immense, unfathomable amount of pain in the world, so I feel guilty for having it so easy.

I wouldn't exactly say that I feel for these sufferers as though they were my own family, but it really, deeply saddens me, and why shouldn't I feel an empathy as though they were some distant relation? That's what they are after all (very distant, but still!).

Anyway, I'll stop rambling. Just tell me: how do you, in good conscience, carry on with your simple pleasures when the world is so blatantly horrific? The only way I can square it with myself is to think that life is expendable and nature is just inherently violent and disgusting. I'm still sad though.


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## graaf

Some people can't forgive themselves for not helping others in need, others actually take pride in the fact that once they didn't hurt someone, although they easily could.

Why? 




_Because it's judgment that defeats us._


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## science

It's the world for sure. Most of the nice things in the world are lies; the crap is the truth.

So what do we do? The only things in the history of humanity that have substantially our lot are capitalism, republican government, science and technology, religious and ethnic tolerance (pluralism and secularism), and free media. Promote these things. There's nothing else we can do. Charity helps a little, but changing the systems help a lot.


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## Polednice

I'm just going to repost something by science from the other thread which is relevant here:



science said:


> That video doesn't make me feel unfairly privileged. That was a glimpse right at the true heart of humanity right there, and most of the time we just lie to ourselves. We probably can't help it, it is probably impossible for us to know how evil we are; and even if we could or do know, it's another thing to admit it.
> 
> That's why I pray that a just God exists. There needs to be a hell.
> 
> If only there were a hell.


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## Polednice

In light of your post that I quoted, science, I'm prompted to say that I don't think there is anything fundamentally evil about humanity, but that it was a bad day for us when we evolved consciousness. The terrible things that happen in the world are all 'natural', all bound to happen in the system of Life, but it is because we are keenly aware of them and can imagine them that it is all the worse for us.


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## science

In a sense you're right - the universe doesn't have the values we do. The laws of physics (and any spirits responsible for them) don't seem to care at all what happens to anyone or anything. The amount of suffering on our planet is huge - we can limit ourselves to human suffering if we want to, because there's enough of that to overwhelm any decent person, but if we want to throw in all the things that are being eaten right now, all the things that are dying of starvation right now - well, I conclude that nature (and any spirits in charge of it) doesn't care at all. If life has evolved on lots of other planets, as I'd guess it has, those planets are probably about as full of suffering.

So the laws of physics don't care; chemistry doesn't care; biology doesn't care. I admit all that.

I do not admit that I have to share the cosmos' (lack of) values. The fact is, I do care.

Some things disgust me, some things delight me, and even if those experiences are nothing but super-complex chemical processes, they are my experiences, my values, and I am not going to stop holding them just because the rocks and dust and the vacuum of space don't care.

My values are mine, they're inside me, I can't separate myself from them, they _are_ me, and I freely defy the indifference of the cosmos - and its gods, if there are any.


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## Polednice

Of course, I completely agree with you. It doesn't matter to me that the universe doesn't care; I started this thread because I perhaps care too much!

But that's the question - how can a person care honestly and deeply without being overwhelmed by the endless pain? :/


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## Ukko

I handle my knowledge of the suffering and injustice in the world (not just involving humans) by observing that it is beyond my power to do much to reduce it. I do 'what I can'. And try to keep my screw-ups at a minimum. When I hit the lottery big, or some other ship comes in, I intend to make a bigger ripple.


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## hawk

Polednice said:


> Of course, I completely agree with you. It doesn't matter to me that the universe doesn't care; I started this thread because I perhaps care too much!
> 
> But that's the question - _how can a person care honestly and deeply without being overwhelmed by the endless pain_? :/


I am of the thinking that bringing balance to our observations can lessen the feeling of being overwhelmed. Without a doubt there is tremendous pain and suffering in our world. It is not only we humans either....

Equally there is an incredible amount of beauty and wonder in our world. We are bombarded with the difficulties daily~the media of course is a major culprit in addition many of us live in environments that need no media coverage as the difficulty of living is rampant...

I agree that we may not be able to change the world but I think we can make a significant impact in someones life and who know's what far reaching consequences that may have. I am a simple minded person so I think simple things like a Smile, genuine Hello, holding a door can make a profound difference in someones life. So many people feel alone/isolated as if non-existent. Saying hello acknowledges the existence of the person. 
Share your wealth when in the cafe~leave some money for the next persons coffee with out them knowing. We did this once while shopping at the mall. A couple hours later when in need of more caffeine the person behind the counter mentioned that about 30-35 other folks left money...
There is amazing restorative power in our world. Truly listening to the song of a bird, breathing in the fragrance of a flower, watching the flight of a bee ...in other words OBSERVE the Beauty of our world. Let it consume you or at least fill you. sometimes it takes practice to see hear and feel Lifes Beauty but once you allow yourself you'll see that it brings balance. Balance does not lessen the ill's of the world but it makes them more managable with-in and brings some clarity~not everything in the world is awful. 
I think it also gives others permission to look inward to find remedy for external ill's...


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## Ukko

hawk said:


> [...]
> I agree that we may not be able to change the world but I think we can make a significant impact in someones life and who know's what far reaching consequences that may have. I am a simple minded person so I think simple things like a Smile, genuine Hello, holding a door can make a profound difference in someones life. So many people feel alone/isolated as if non-existent. Saying hello acknowledges the existence of the person.
> [...]
> ..


Very eloquent. I had to pick a paragraph to quote, to reference the post. I would echo your sentiment, but I am not able to 'let it all hang out' like that. Thanks for being the 'Speaker' for me.

If all we can do are little things, lets do them; maybe they add up.

:tiphat:


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## Weston

This is a bit like asking why you should continue breathing when so many billions no longer can. I believe most of those less fortunate than you would not really wish you to be in their plight along with them. When I am sick, I do not wish for others to be sick (unless of course they think I'm faking it, then I'm only human and want a little vindication). 

Besides, I don't see how enjoying your life is the same as depriving others of theirs. If you try to help once in a while, your conscience should be clear. If, as Carl Sagan said, we are a way for the universe to know itself, then the universe should know peace and contentment. And if we are custodians of this world, then joining in the suffering will not help end it. That is why you must study Beowulf. Only through education can we begin to lessen the sufferings of the world.

As to the evils of human beings -- we are among the very few species that even gives a flip about other species. (I include dogs and dolphins in that category.) We try to rescue other species from extinction, even those that are rather unpleasant such as the California Condor, because it is the right thing to do. We expect no understanding or gratitude from the condor when we do this, unlike the selfish violent gods who are always demanding worship and would save us from their own threats for a price.


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## Polednice

You misunderstand me Weston. I didn't mean to suggest that I ought to share in their pain in order to balance things out. I was trying to express my feeling that the mere knowledge of so much suffering in the world is an emotional burden, as much as it would be if someone I knew was severely ill.


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## Fsharpmajor

I dunno if any of you have seen _The Third Man_, but it's one of the world's finest movies. It's set in Vienna, just after the Second World War. Harry Lime, the villain (played by Orson Welles), has made a fortune by selling fake penicillin. He explains himself and his actions in this famous scene:


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## Elgarian

Polednice said:


> it was a bad day for us when we evolved consciousness. The terrible things that happen in the world are all 'natural', all bound to happen in the system of Life, but it is because we are keenly aware of them and can imagine them that it is all the worse for us.


I'm not going to offer any solutions. I don't have any. The problem of pain is one of the ultimate philosophical questions.

But there's this. You mention what a bad day it was when we evolved consciousness. It seems to me very odd that the world should evolve a species whose naturally-selected members would in due course look around at the world, and feel so very out of kilter with it. So much so that they would invent a concept of 'bad', and declare these perfectly natural events to be 'bad'. For as you say, these terrible things are 'natural'. And so are we. Once we've recognised our experiences of badness as mere feelings, emotions, conditioning, or what have you, then I see no reason why we couldn't condition ourselves _out_ of that situation. Yet not only can we _not_ do that (unless we're psychotically ill), we wouldn't _want_ to do that. The very thought of _not_ caring seems to be something that we'd be ashamed of. Again, this seems very odd.

My point (there is one, but it's very hard to express it clearly, and I apologise for any muddle you perceive in it) is that every time we make these value judgments, we appeal to innate notions of badness and goodness _as if they were fundamental_. As if they were _a priori_. Yet if, having understood the process of natural selection, we declare them to be illusory - if we've truly recognised them to be 'mere' feelings - I see no reason why we should worry about them any more than our other feelings.

There's a fierce paradox here. There's no comfort in it; I can't resolve it; but it leaves me convinced that there's something very odd about the world and our place in it. The chief comfort, as I said in another thread, is that the horror can be shared. That you and I both understand. But why that should _be_ a comfort is itself a mystery.


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## Meaghan

One of my favorite contemporary poets, Mary Oliver, wrote a poem that addresses the guilt sometimes experienced by empathic people with privileged lives. It's relevant, I think:



> *This Day, and Probably Tomorrow Also*
> 
> Full of thought, regret, hope dashed or not dashed yet,
> fell of memory pride, and more than enough
> of spilled personal grief,
> 
> I begin another page, another poem.
> 
> So many notions fill the day! I give them
> gowns of words, sometimes I give them
> little shoes that rhyme.
> 
> What an elite life!
> 
> While somewhere someone is kissing a face that is crying.
> While somewhere women are walking out, at two in the morning--
> many miles to find water.
> While somewhere a bomb is getting ready to explode.


I don't know what to to do about this. It's something I wrestle with as well. I feel somewhat better when I do small nice things for other people (though, admittedly, mostly people in similarly privileged positions, because those are most of the people I know), like cooking for them, or taking care of them when they are sick or unhappy. It makes me feel like my life is having a positive impact in the world, if only in a small way. I tell myself that comparatively mild troubles matter too (as I've seen you, Polednice, telling those who feel guilty for complaining about their colds), and anything that I can do to make someone else feel better is a very good thing.


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## starthrower

There's a wonderful little book about this subject called Man's Search For Meaning by psychiatrist and Nazi death camp survivor Viktor E. Frankl.


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## Polednice

That video has continued to haunt me all day, and I keep having little bursts of tears.

I hate you, Philip.


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## Elgarian

Polednice said:


> That video has continued to haunt me all day, and I keep having little bursts of tears.


I feel much the same about the video. I feel a dismaying hollowness inside. And horrible though it is, I can't help but feel that it's right that we _should_ feel like this. Just think what it would mean if we didn't.


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## Elgarian

Meaghan said:


> I feel somewhat better when I do small nice things for other people (though, admittedly, mostly people in similarly privileged positions, because those are most of the people I know), like cooking for them, or taking care of them when they are sick or unhappy. It makes me feel like my life is having a positive impact in the world, if only in a small way. I tell myself that comparatively mild troubles matter too (as I've seen you, Polednice, telling those who feel guilty for complaining about their colds), and anything that I can do to make someone else feel better is a very good thing.


Yes. The best guide I know is to imagine the reverse situation. For most of us there are times when, for whatever reason, we come close to despair - and my experience of those states is that a single small friendly gesture, word, or act, can make a difference. It may only make the next five minutes slightly easier to cope with, but better that than nothing. (And sometimes the next five minutes might otherwise have been the worst.)


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## Polednice

Elgarian said:


> I feel much the same about the video. I feel a dismaying hollowness inside. And horrible though it is, I can't help but feel that it's right that we _should_ feel like this. Just think what it would mean if we didn't.


You're absolutely right. And, though it was indeed a complex, paradoxical thought, I understood what you said on the previous page and agree with it also (though where is the consolation indeed?).

I think I will go to bed in the knowledge that, in the morning, I will wake up to a loved one and they will put a smile on my face.


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## hawk

For 16 years my work has brought my family and I to a place in central Louisiana. Our last night of travel usually finds us in Tuscaloosa Alabama~it is also our first stop during our return home. This year a couple weeks prior to our expected stay a very violent tornado wreaked havoc causing much damge and death in the area we usually stay. We were conflicted about going thinking we may need to find an alternative route/place to stay. This conflict really tore at us~ would our measly few bucks for hotel and food help, would there be some work we could do in the few hours of being there~really the questions boiled down to one~could I (we) handle the trauma of seeing others suffering so much....

When we arrived in Tuscaloosa it really was devestated more than anything I have ever seen. At first I felt that I shouldn't be there gawking (really that emotional trauma thing sneaking up) then it began to feel important to share in this so we drove to various areas and got out of the car to read the messages on the homes, to say hello to folks who were recoiling....

In one coffee place I attempted to buy a coffee for a redcross worker and a companion but she had paid. We chatted for a while I expressing many things but one repeatedly~ "I wish I could do more to help"~her reply was that she was happy that my family and I would think to come and share (witness) and in doing so the burden is lessened....


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## Almaviva

Like I said, I won't sleep well tonight, thanks to that video, maybe the most shocking thing I've seen in a while (and I've seen my share of shocking things, thanks to my profession).

Well in my work I do a lot to mitigate pain. I win some, lose some, but I do feel proud of the good I do. And in my personal life, I contribute to charity, and I try to have some degree of political activism, time permitting.

I don't see what else I'd be able to do. It is not much, but it will have to do so that I can try and sleep, without that video haunting me.


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## Ravellian

I don't care because I know that personally there's _nothing_ I can do about it. Contributing to charities doesn't help. For example, studies have shown that Haitians make about half as much as they did 50 years ago on average and have worse living conditions, despite all the aid agencies we've brought to the country. The only thing that can really help them is for them to stop living in a culture of poverty by eliminating the corruption in their government and adopting capitalism.

Of course we're all screwed in the long-term because resources are running out and overpopulation will become a critical factor very soon.

It's kinda hopeless, to be honest. Sometimes I wish I were less educated and knowledgeable about the world; I might then still have some hope. At least I have sitcoms to watch to make my mind off things...


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## Polednice

I keep having this horrible image of the girl lying in horrific pain, silently calling for her mother who doesn't come - can anyone tell me that the girl would have been unconscious after that impact, or is it wishful thinking? 

Ravellian, I understand your point about charities, but, certainly closer to home, there are many charities that are extremely worthwhile. Particularly, of course, if you volunteer yourself rather than donate money.


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## Elgarian

Polednice said:


> though it was indeed a complex, paradoxical thought, I understood what you said on the previous page and agree with it also (though where is the consolation indeed?).


I've been thinking about this business of 'consolation', last night and this morning (while trying to fend off the horrors arising from that video), wondering indeed whether the only effective practical response is sheer stoicism. Apart from anything else, philosophising about pain while actually enduring it (and seeing others endure it) may not result in the most helpful of outcomes. But still, the question this morning is whether there's any comfort to be had in contemplating the ethical paradox I outlined earlier (#14). These are a few thoughts that I've been mulling over, but bear in mind that I speak as a thoroughgoing agnostic. I'm sceptical of the adequacy of _all_ existing philosophical and religious (including non-religious) systems:

1. I think the problematic character of the paradox may only arise as a Western cultural issue. (The Zen Masters, for instance, I think would not be dismayed by it as we are, but would embrace it.) Buddhism, for instance, puts suffering at the very heart of its teachings. Unfortunately I can't derive much personal comfort from this - partly because whether I like it or not, I'm too deeply embedded in the Western tradition; and partly because when I look into systems like Buddhism, or Zen, or Taoism, I'm immediately overwhelmed by a mass of what seems to be distracting and unnecessary detail. That these systems do help a significant proportion of humanity is clear, but I don't think they help me. They centre on an attitude to life that I can't adopt. Still, knowledge of their very existence (and success) might be helpful in a way.

2. So I return to the framework of Western philosophy. It seems to me that it can be helpful merely to know and see for oneself how different philosophers have viewed the world and our place in it. It can be helpful to make Kant's distinction between the phenomenal and the noumenal, for example, if only to recognise the vast extent of what we can never know, and the inadequacy (except on a merely practical level) of what we think we _do_ know. And then again, it's helpful to have some grasp (difficult though it is) of Wittgenstein's apprehension of the idea that all our metaphysical thinking consists of no more than language games. I've thought for some time now that these labels we use so confidently, like 'Theism' and 'Atheism' are probably the _cause_ of metaphysical problems, rather than means to their solution. I'm inclined to think for example, that the statements 'There is a God' and 'There is no God' are equally meaningless.

3. So I come back to the paradox that I outlined in #14; and for the present, the only solution to it that I can see is an existential one. My entire being rebels at the notion that my perception of evil (as demonstrated in that video for example) is merely conditioning. The thought that my sense of outrage is not really outrage at all, but something equivalent to my dislike of warm beer, is itself outrageous and inhuman. So I choose to draw the line there. Regardless of whether I can explain it or not, I make an existential decision to regard my innate notions of good and evil as _a priori_. As a _cornerstone_ of thought that one _starts from_, not as something to be argued _towards._ (I'm not talking here about the details of a moral code, you understand. I'm not talking about a rulebook. That's quite separate. I'm talking about an existential decision to recognise the fundamental nature of goodness and badness.)

Is that comforting? I don't really know. It's one way of resolving the paradox. Or rather, of recognising the paradox as the consequence of the inadequacy of knowledge, and just deciding to go with one's intuition. I don't present it here as a system suited to anyone but myself.


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## Elgarian

Polednice said:


> I keep having this horrible image of the girl lying in horrific pain, silently calling for her mother who doesn't come


Sadly, none of what I just posted above can help with that, for I'm experiencing the same recurring memories of it myself, and finding it intolerable, just like you.


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## Polednice

I've been thinking some more about this and, though I don't have the necessary philosophical foundation to give an answer as comprehensive as Elgarian's, I have found a little consolation in the fact that pain is transient.

Speaking of the relative uselessness of Old English, there is a short poem called _Deor_ in which the poet recounts how, though he was once rich and happy, he is now destitute. However, he expresses a refrain which exhibits a simple hope for change: _Þæs ofereode, þisses swa mæg_ (as that passed over, so will this).

In my own experience with extreme pain, it is, of course, the most horrific thing imaginable when it is happening, but - though you may not always be confident in it - it _always_ ends. And, thankfully, though we can recall our state of mind when in pain, our bodies do not allow us to actually relive the physical pain by memory once it has gone.

For that girl, if she was even marginally awake after she was hit by that van, then by any standards she was in Hell. In those moments, she suffered in a way that most of us cannot begin to comprehend. Whether or not the suffering was made better or worse by her lack of understanding and experience in the world, I don't know. But, as horrific as that time was, it is over. She will never experience that pain again. It is gone. Forever.

Unfortunately, there are two things that this does not resolve.

First, the injustice. Most people will either go from a state of suffering into a state of happiness, or be in a constant fluctuation between the two with varying levels of time and intensity. But the girl died. The innocent two-year-old went from a state of harmless childhood exploration to unimaginable pain, and then nothing. Through the carelessness and spitefulness of those around her, she was given no second chance. _Nothing_ can recover this loss. That is a life as valuable as mine and yours that was extinguished without care.

Second, the fact that, though pain _in individuals_ is transitory, as a global phenomenon it is constant. It changes shape, and changes person, but it is always in the world. All I can say to this is that, so long as we maintain our innate moral sense as a species, there should always be enough of us to care for each other and see each other through the pain. The most frightening thing about the instance with the young girl is the callousness of nearly everyone who walked by her. So long as that remains a rare, despicable act, then I think I can continue as normal. Given the sheer number of people who didn't even look twice, though, I am concerned for China...


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## starthrower

All of this philosophizing is interesting, but you can't relieve anyone's suffering in the abstract. There are millions of elderly people suffering from the terrible pain of loneliness. You can do something about it. Go visit somebody in a nursing home.

Another thing I've been working on is not complaining, and trying not to give anyone a hard time in my personal relationships at home and work. Just soldier on, do what needs to be done, and have consideration for every person I come in contact with.


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## Elgarian

starthrower said:


> All of this philosophizing is interesting, but you can't relieve anyone's suffering in the abstract.


I'd just like to make it clear that I agree completely about the issue regarding the relief of suffering; but for me the philosophising is a good deal more than merely 'interesting'. It can make the difference between throwing in the towel and giving up (on the one hand), or deciding to act, (on the other). Philosophy, for me, is not a kind of intellectual hobby; it's one of several crucial aids in deciding how to live.


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## starthrower

Elgarian said:


> Philosophy, for me, is not a kind of intellectual hobby; it's one of several crucial aids in deciding how to live.


I'm all for that approach. One thing that happened to me as a result of my former university radio program was that I came in contact with several blind individuals. Two of which were regular listeners and callers. It has been one of my great joys to befriend both of these gentlemen and we've remained close for over a decade now. This experience helped me understand the isolation, boredom, and loneliness that many blind people suffer. Especially the one man who went blind later in life and doesn't read braille. He also lives alone with little assistance, which is amazing to me. These two guys have enriched my life more than they'll ever know, and they reached out to me first.


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## Ukko

starthrower said:


> [...]
> ... and they reached out to me first.


I wonder how many readers of your post realize: _that changes everything_, because it is the first thing. I'd call it a 'game changer', but friendship isn't a game.

[Being a Vermont hillbilly, I am not free to elaborate.]


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## Kopachris

I wish I could offer some deep philosophical insight into how I deal with global pain, but I don't think I can. I've gone through this same discussion with myself several times, and the only resolution I've found is stoicism. I simply realize that there's nothing that can be done about others' pain in most cases and get on with my own little piece of life. I do what I can to relieve people's pain, but I can't help everyone. I just accept it as a fact of life and move on, though it sometimes comes back to tear my mind apart. However, on a more personal level, I usually deal with pain by embracing it. I accept it as a part of myself and let it wash over me. By doing that, I am no longer fighting the pain but am in control of it. (If that sounds weird, it's because I don't know how else to describe it.) That's kind of the same way I deal with the psychological pain of empathizing with the world.


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## Kopachris

Why do I keep killing interesting threads?


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## science

Just an observation on this thread as a whole: 

It is interesting that some people have such tender consciences that they feel guilt for things they didn't do - but the truly intriguing thing is when others look down on them for it. Is that a kind of over-compensation? Wonder what the motivation is there. Of course it could be a political thing, but it could be bigger than that. I'll work on this.


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## Sid James

Polednice said:


> You misunderstand me Weston. I didn't mean to suggest that I ought to share in their pain in order to balance things out. I was trying to express my feeling that the mere knowledge of so much suffering in the world is an emotional burden, as much as it would be if someone I knew was severely ill.


I can connect with this as some close to me went through world war two in Europe. It was horrible. After the war, there was a feeling amongst many as to how could it happen, how could people, the whole society let these things happen? It's a similar issue in that film mentioned here before, _The Third Man_. So it is an emotional burden for sure, not only for those of older generations who actually went through that, but of course those who are suffering now.

Anyway, I won't ramble on, save that what starthrower said made sense to me, as well as some others. It's like what that Suzuki guy says, "Think global, act local." Also what's said here about bearing witness, and never forgetting these things, letting people know what happened (I read somewhere, incl. here, that many young people in the USA don't know that the Holocaust happened, or at least the specifics, which is not a good thing, imo, those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it) -



hawk said:


> ...
> In one coffee place I attempted to buy a coffee for a redcross worker and a companion but she had paid. We chatted for a while I expressing many things but one repeatedly~ "I wish I could do more to help"~her reply was that *she was happy that my family and I would think to come and share (witness) and in doing so the burden is lessened*....


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## science

Sid James said:


> I can connect with this as some close to me went through world war two in Europe. It was horrible. After the war, there was a feeling amongst many as to how could it happen, how could people, the whole society let these things happen? It's a similar issue in that film mentioned here before, _The Third Man_. So it is an emotional burden for sure, not only for those of older generations who actually went through that, but of course those who are suffering now.
> 
> Anyway, I won't ramble on, save that what starthrower said made sense to me, as well as some others. It's like what that Suzuki guy says, "Think global, act local." Also what's said here about bearing witness, and never forgetting these things, letting people know what happened (I read somewhere, incl. here, that many young people in the USA don't know that the Holocaust happened, or at least the specifics, which is not a good thing, imo, those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it) -


One of the key insights there - one that is almost completely forgotten now - is that ordinary people did those things and allowed them to happen.

We are returning to a good/evil worldview, in which evil people do evil things and good people do not. And since it is axiomatic that "we" are good, our actions must be good as well.


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## Sid James

science said:


> One of the key insights there - one that is almost completely forgotten now - is that ordinary people did those things and allowed them to happen.
> ...


Yes, well it is easy to blame certain people at the top for giving the orders, but what about those below who followed the orders? It's a rubbery area for sure. One of the people my family knew who also went through the German occupation in Europe absolutely grew to hate the whole German people, long after the war. This person was dismayed when the two Germanies - East & West - were united in 1990. He thought that they should remain divided forever, to teach them a lesson. In my darker moments, reflecting on what happened, I actually see his logic VERY clearly. It's not only those who give the orders but those who do the paperwork in the offices, drive the trains, build the armaments, etc. etc. They are all guilty in various ways. & there lies the problem. Do we punish? & if we punish, who do we punish? Is this the same discrimation as we're fighting against?

Basically you said it right there. & it's in the narration of Bernstein's _Kaddish Symphony_, spoken by Samuel Pisar, himself a Holocaust survivor. There's often only a very thin line separating good and evil, genius and madness, reality and unreality, etc...


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## science

Sid James said:


> Yes, well it is easy to blame certain people at the top for giving the orders, but what about those below who followed the orders? It's a rubbery area for sure. One of the people my family knew who also went through the German occupation in Europe absolutely grew to hate the whole German people, long after the war. This person was dismayed when the two Germanies - East & West - were united in 1990. He thought that they should remain divided forever, to teach them a lesson. In my darker moments, reflecting on what happened, I actually see his logic VERY clearly. It's not only those who give the orders but those who do the paperwork in the offices, drive the trains, build the armaments, etc. etc. They are all guilty in various ways. & there lies the problem. Do we punish? & if we punish, who do we punish? Is this the same discrimation as we're fighting against?
> 
> Basically you said it right there. & it's in the narration of Bernstein's _Kaddish Symphony_, spoken by Samuel Pisar, himself a Holocaust survivor. There's often only a very thin line separating good and evil, genius and madness, reality and unreality, etc...


I love the line from Solzhenitsyn, that the line dividing good from evil runs through every human heart.

Probably the single most important lesson we can learn from any spiritual tradition is to recognize the evil that lives so casually in our own hearts - a recognition that is death to moral complacency and condescension.

The more confident we are in our own goodness, I'd suggest, the more likely that we'll commit evil.


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## Ukko

science said:


> I love the line from Solzhenitsyn, that the line dividing good from evil runs through every human heart.
> 
> Probably the single most important lesson we can learn from any spiritual tradition is to recognize the evil that lives so casually in our own hearts - a recognition that is death to moral complacency and condescension.
> 
> The more confident we are in our own goodness, I'd suggest, the more likely that we'll commit evil.


I suspect that many introverts feel that 'looking inward' is not a blessing, even if it is not a curse. I can't quite grasp how one can be both self-satisfied and a self-critic. What you term evil, _Science_, I think of as the Beast - the remains of Homo Erectus that civilization will never remove. Old H.E. doesn't examine his motives, and he can be pretty damn petty.


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## kv466

Ya'll are doing quite an excellent job...very good reading, truly...some of you know my position well on these matters...hope you were able to sleep well, Alms; at least indoors as I know outdoors might be truly traumatic to you! Keep 'em coming as I'll only throw my nickel in if I see something that really disturbs me...as always, my usual suspects are saying all the right things, or wrong...but very interesting, indeed.


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## Vaneyes

The cup is half full.


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## Polednice

I've been thinking some more about how that video affected me, and also how it fits into a more general context of human suffering.

I think it's fair to say that, horrifying as it was, there wasn't anything in that video (a small girl being run over, for those who haven't or don't wish to see it) that suggested any greater suffering than occurs with thousands of others every day all across the globe. So, it wasn't the extent of the suffering that made it particularly affect me and, though I am prone to weeping a little at reports of child-deaths because of the aspect of innocence, I was affected more than usual.

What I think was the main trigger here was how graphic it was. The impact, the blood, the feeling of being there.

But here lies another question, another dilemma. It is generally the case that we all have a disconnect from the world's suffering. Unless we are experiencing it ourselves or through people close to us, it certainly doesn't affect us as much as it does the victims, and if we do not remember it or are not reminded of it frequently enough, it is all too easy to continue living quite normally as though it doesn't exist (and indeed, many people live without helping anyone outside their immediate family despite hearing of all the pain in the world).

So, at times, we _need_ to see or feel or hear of suffering so that we are propelled into some kind of action. But how much and how often should we see? Seeing nothing at all, we would forget; seeing an incident as in that video every day (which, even then, would not approximate the true amount of suffering that exists), we would probably die of grief. So where do we draw the line?


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## lou

"The drivers who shamed China: Two arrested in death of two-year-old Yue Yue - who was run over TWICE as dozens of people ignored her lying in the road"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ath-Chinese-girl-run-TWICE.html#ixzz1bpmHK1m9

Too little, too late.


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## Sid James

Polednice said:


> ...
> So, at times, we _need_ to see or feel or hear of suffering so that we are propelled into some kind of action. But how much and how often should we see? Seeing nothing at all, we would forget; seeing an incident as in that video every day (which, even then, would not approximate the true amount of suffering that exists), we would probably die of grief. So where do we draw the line?


This makes me think, the problem is that when I hear of suffering, or perpetration of crimes against innocents, I become very angry. Just in the last week here in Australia, there have been four cases going through the courts of shocking crimes done with no sense of logic or "real" motive or reason why, other than just senseless killing -

1. Two youths killing another youth
2. One youth deliberately running over and either killing or seriously injuring another youth (I can't remember which, but it was serious)
3. Two youths going on the property of an elderly woman and cutting her throat
4. A young relative of our worst serial killer currently behind bars for life, Ivan Milat, coming out and admitting that he too has been a serial killer.

So, my reaction to these is anger. As that family acquaintance to the Germans after the war I talked to above. I'm sickened by all this & I don't even make an effort to be up with what's going on in the news. I listen to the radio and these things are stated in hourly news reports. It makes me think of bringing back the death penalty. Can these killers be rehabilitated if they're this sick? They just enjoy inflicting suffering. Sometimes I agree with a friend who says that these criminals are like weeds. If a weed grows in your garden, you don't nurture it, you pull it out and throw it in the trash. I'm not a huge supporter of capital punishment but my gut response when I hear these sickening reports is just a feeling to want revenge. These victims have no say, they are dead. My gut feeling is that they should be avenged. But it's not a very "civilised" way of thinking, but it's just how I feel when I hear these things, I get very emotional...


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## kv466

Sorry, but this thread's name reminds me of the three rings of marriage:

-First there's the engagement ring.
-Next there's the wedding ring.
-And then there's the suffe*ring*.

Anyway,...sorry. Carry on [exits, stage left]


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## Ukko

kv466 said:


> Sorry, but this thread's name reminds me of the three rings of marriage:
> 
> -First there's the engagement ring.
> -Next there's the wedding ring.
> -And then there's the suffe*ring*.
> 
> Anyway,...sorry. Carry on [exits, stage left]


Hey, I think it's called 'spousal flagellation'. Good for the soul, I gather.


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## Fsharpmajor

science said:


> One of the key insights there - one that is almost completely forgotten now - is that ordinary people did those things and allowed them to happen.


There's a famous (and controversial) psychological experiment which addressed this topic:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment*


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## Chrythes

Fsharpmajor said:


> There's a famous (and controversial) psychological experiment which addressed this topic:
> 
> *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment*


Yeah, but it's more focused on listening to authority. 
I doubt people would normally behave like that in the same situations without authoritative figures telling them what to do.
Animals feel empathy as well. I am wondering how a dog would feel after constantly seeing other dogs suffer? 
Just an idea for an experiment (a cruel one though, hope it will never get done).


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## Sid James

I studied the Milgram experiment years ago at uni. It wouldn't be done today, that's for sure. What came out of it was that those people who refused to follow orders to do those horrible things had a well developed sense of *conscience*. The problem is that with the pack mentality of various extreme political ideologies, the individual is not encouraged to have a conscience, they are virtually forced to do what the mob is doing. A kind of rationalisation of irrational and basically morally wrong things develops easily in this context. There's also a sense of the desensitisation to killing and death which occurs in these extreme contexts. It's a wonder that some level of humanity and decency survives in this world, with this kind of **** happening time and time again...


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## science

It's an in-group / out-group thing, IMO. 

Some people have a stronger insider/outsider distinction, and they are more likely to do such things--to "outsiders" of course--with a clear conscience. Anyone can be rather easily intimidated into doing them, as Milgram showed, but some people have almost a drive to do such things. They perceive a world full of threats, and they have to defend their own.


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## Sid James

^^Yes, it is about perceived threats and "the other." The old "us and them" mentality. Of course we can do this to these people, they are not human, they are vermin. It can be based on anything you want - but ethnicity, politics, religion are the main things. Two of the men who I admire tried to unite their people, not divide them - Mohandas Ghandi and Dr. Martin Luther King. Look at what happened to them - they died for the cause they believed in, which was unity not division, hatred, violence, etc...


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## regressivetransphobe

Sid James said:


> ^^Yes, it is about perceived threats and "the other." The old "us and them" mentality. Of course we can do this to these people, they are not human, they are vermin. It can be based on anything you want - but ethnicity, politics, religion are the main things. Two of the men who I admire tried to unite their people, not divide them - Mohandas Ghandi and Dr. Martin Luther King. Look at what happened to them - they died for the cause they believed in, which was unity not division, hatred, violence, etc...


Sort of related, one of the things Dr. King died believing is that talking about equality is a farce when the gap between the rich and the poor is so grotesque. But it seems like most Americans either ignore that or don't know about it.


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