# Cycle review: Bartok



## Avey

In an attempt to get more threads going in the Chamber Music section, I thought to begin a monthly discussion on quartet cycles.

Focus on one composer. Focus on quartets/quintets, including piano.

Generally, hoping to get opinions on the respective composer's cycle, specific anecdotes or comments on pieces, movements, or notes. Maybe you have a ranking. Maybe you recently saw a performance. Maybe, like me, you are just looking to discuss particular pieces after hearing them.

So, I hope this draws some interest.
---

And let's not start with the GIGANTIC composers first. Instead, let's start with the oft-performed (in my experience), but somewhat nontraditional (dare I say atonal? Controversy!) *Bela Bartok* and his six special quartets (plus piano quartet and quintet). How to even describe his works?


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## Mandryka

I've been exploring the 4th quartet a bit recently, after seeing Cuarteto Casals play it in London, so I'd be very interested for ideas about the music - what are the main points to be looking for in a performance? That sort of thing.

I'm not sure whether this is a distraction from the topic, and if I'm told it is I'll edit it out, but the other Bartok I've been exploring are the last two books of Mikrokosmos. I always knew that the series of dances at the end of Book 6 were fantastic, but I was surprised to find how much fun the other music is, in both these books. I think Jeno Jando is really convincing, but also Gyorgy Sandor. I only have Sandor's mono recording, is the stereo one better performance wise? (Bartok recorded a lot of mikrokosmos himself of course.)


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## Vaneyes

Mandryka said:


> I've been exploring the 4th quartet a bit recently, after seeing Cuarteto Casals play it in London, so I'd be very interested for ideas about the music - what are the main points to be looking for in a performance? That sort of thing.
> 
> *I'm not sure whether this is a distraction from the topic*, and if I'm told it is I'll edit it out, but the other Bartok I've been exploring are the last two books of Mikrokosmos. I always knew that the series of dances at the end of Book 6 were fantastic, but I was surprised to find how much fun the other music is, in both these books. I think Jeno Jando is really convincing, but also Gyorgy Sandor. I only have Sandor's mono recording, is the stereo one better performance wise? (Bartok recorded a lot of Mikrokosmos himself of course.)


I think the Mikrokosmos mention is appropriate, in that the String Quartets and it progress from most approachable to something quite mind-stretching. Actually a perfect strategy/format for new Bartok listeners.

Both bodies are well-represented in the catalogue. At the moment, I have Solchany (EMI, rec.1973 - '75) for Mikrokosmos, and ABQ (EMI, rec. 1984 - '86) for the SQs, but I have and could live happily with others. :tiphat:


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## Avey

Unsurprisingly, the Fourth Quartet was the ingress of my exploring Bartok's entire repertoire. Yet the structure and literal, tonal aspects of the piece escape me, like much of his music.

I've read that Bartok commonly incorporated mathematical concepts/approaches into his compositions -- the fourth being one of them. The piece is structured as an arc, with themes and elements mirrored apart from the middle _lento_. This is only me reciting some of what I read and understood. I may be far off base. But is this approach unique? Does that lend itself to the novel sound?

Generally, I'm interested in _why_ Bartok's quartets sound the way they do. Is _atonal_ the right description? I truly don't know; a trained musician's perspective would be appreciated.


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## Vaneyes

Avey, it's a commendable idea for a thread, but I think you may get faster/more results by searching the web for musicological helpings.

Example:

http://www.bayarea.net/~kins/AboutMe/Bartok/Bartok_SQ4_Analysis.html

Also, Paul Griffiths is a noted Bartok ( amongst other modernists) authority. He supplied the liner notes (1987) for my ABQ SQ set. His book may be helpful Bartok (Master Musician). Inexpensive paperbacks are available via Amazon Marketplace. :tiphat:


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## Mahlerian

Avey said:


> Generally, I'm interested in _why_ Bartok's quartets sound the way they do. Is _atonal_ the right description? I truly don't know; a trained musician's perspective would be appreciated.


It's not "tonal", at least not in the sense that Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, and Mahler are tonal, but it's not in a style associated with the word "atonal", either (if that's confusing, that simply shows how nonsensical the word atonal is to begin with!). Bartok tends to use ostinati or pedal points to give a sense of local tonal center (and thus of stability) to groups of notes that are otherwise dissonant.

Beyond that, it's the use of folk material in distinctly modernist ways (like Debussy and Stravinsky before him), bringing the spiky edges into relief rather than softening them.


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## Alypius

Avey, Wonderful idea for a thread. And Bartok's String Quartets are among my favorite works in the entirety of the classical corpus. As I noted on another thread, I was privileged about a month ago to see the Takacs Quartet perform the entire cycle. Seeing it live was simply thrilling. For me the Takacs may be the finest of the many, many fine string quartets working today.

You used the word "atonal" and Mahlerian offered a quite precise corrective. Generally speaking, the Quartets sound the way they do because of Bartok's ethnomusicological research into the folk idioms of Hungary and beyond. Let me type in some of the superb notes that were in the program concerning String Quartet #4, which deals with these issues:



> "Folk influence pervades the Fourth Quartet, composed during the summer of 1928, soon after Bartok returned from his first tour of America as pianist and composer. It is evident in the small-interval melodic leapings, gapped scales, and snapping rhythms of the first movement; in the whirling motion and fiery syncopations of the two scherzos; in the florrid, chromatic melody of the central movement, which evokes the melancholy pastorales of the _tarogato_, a Hungarian single-reed woodwind instrument ... that Bartok encountered during his field researches. The tendency of themes constructed from these tiny folk gestures when subjected to the developmental and harmonic pressures applied by Bartok is, however, to fragment and fly apart. To counterbalance this problem, Bartok used for this Quartet a rigorous overall formal structure that describes an arch shape centered upon the third of its five movements: fast -- scherzo -- slow --- scherzo -- fast. The first and fifth movements are paired in their mood, tempo, and thematic matieral, an association further enhanced by sharing the smae music in their closing pages. The second and fourth movement, both scherzos, are related in their themes, their head-long rhythmic propulsion and their use of novel effects from the strings: the second movement is played throughout with mutes, while the fourth movement requires a continuous pizzicato, including the percussive snapping of the strings against the fingerboard that Bartok was among the first composers to use. The slow movement, the midpoint of the structure, is itself organized symmetically in three parts ( A - B - A) around the twittering 'night music' of its central section"


I hope that is of some help.


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## Alypius

I did a little digging in the library this afternoon. A few more quotations regarding Bartok and his quartets, esp. #4. As I and Mahlerian noted, what may at first sound "atonal" is rooted in his research. Here's from an essay simply entitled "Autobiography" from 1921 (from _Béla Bartók's Essays_, p. 410:



> "The outcome of these studies was of decisive influence upon my work, because it liberated me from the tyrannical rule of the major and minor keys.... It became clear to me that the old modes, which had been forgotten in our music, had lost nothing of their vigor. Their new employment made new rhythmic combinations possible. This new way of using the diatonic scale brought freedom from the rigid use of the major and minor keys, and eventually led to a new conception of the chromatic scale, every tone of which came to be considered of equal value and could be used freely and independently."


In an essay from 1931, entitled "Influence of Peasant Music on Modern Music", Bartok enunciated three different ways of appropriating "peasant music" (from _Béla Bartók's Essays_, pp. 341-344):



> "(1) We may, for instance, take over a peasant melody unchanged or only slightly varied, write an accompaniment to it and possibly some opening and concluding phrases. This kind of work would show a certain analogy with Bach's treatment of chorales. Two main types can be distinguished among the works of this character.
> (a) In one case accompaniment, introductory and concluding phrases are of secondary importance, and they only serve as an ornamental setting for the precious stone: the peasant melody.
> (b) It is the other way round in the seocnd case: the melody only serves as a 'motto' while that which is built around it of real importance. In any case it is of the greatest importance that the musical qualities of the setting should be derived from the musical qualities of the melody.
> 
> (2) Another method by which peasant music becomes transmuted into modern music is the following: the composer does not make use of a real peasant melody but invents his own imitation of such melodies. There is no real difference between this method and the one described first.
> 
> (3) There is yet a third way in which the influence of peasant music can be traced in a composer's work. Neither peasant melodies nor imitations of peasant melodies can be found in his music, but it is pervaded by the atmosphere of peasant music. In this case we may say, he has completely absorbed the idiom of peasant music which ahs become his musical mother tongue. He masters it as a poet masters his mother tongue."


If one studies Bartok's actual practice, he does all three modes. In the case of the Quartets, it's the third. I have a few more items that I found and will post more a bit later.


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## Mandryka

Alypius said:


> I did a little digging in the library this afternoon. A few more quotations regarding Bartok and his quartets, esp. #4. As I and Mahlerian noted, what may at first sound "atonal" is rooted in his research. Here's from an essay simply entitled "Autobiography" from 1921 (from _Béla Bartók's Essays_, p. 410:
> 
> In an essay from 1931, entitled "Influence of Peasant Music on Modern Music", Bartok enunciated three different ways of appropriating "peasant music" (from _Béla Bartók's Essays_, pp. 341-344):
> 
> If one studies Bartok's actual practice, he does all three modes. In the case of the Quartets, it's the third. I have a few more items that I found and will post more a bit later.


Thanks for making this interesting post, much appreciated.


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## Guest

Avey said:


> And let's not start with the GIGANTIC composers first. Instead, let's start with the oft-performed (in my experience), but somewhat nontraditional (dare I say atonal? Controversy!) *Bela Bartok* and his six special quartets (_plus piano quartet_ and quintet). How to even describe his works?


I did not know Bartok had a piano quartet...hmm...


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## Alypius

Yesterday I said that I would post some more of my notes on Bartok's string quartets. This is from the superb study by *Amanda Bailey, "The String Quartets and Works of Chamber Orchestra," The Cambridge Companion to Bartok, Cambridge Guides to Music (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2007):*

*Significance of Bartok's 6 String Quartets:* "The Six String Quartets offer a fascinating insight into the chronology of Bartók's musical style, as they span some thirty years of his compositional career. _Their stylistic development is such that each Quartet is the culmination of a different phase of his artistic growth, focusing almost all his creative ideas and compositional techniques into a single genre._ On the one hand they represent the continuation of a Classical tradition through an intensity of motivic writing that parallels Beethoven's, while on the other they reflect developments in musical language and a changing aesthetic during the first half of the twentieth century. _Unlike his Austro-German contemporary Arnold Schoenberg, Bartók did not consciously seek to champion the cause of atonality. Rather, his interest lay in the fusion of folk and art music, the synthesis of East and West Europe: his inspiration from the folk music of different nationalities uniquely influenced the melodic, harmonic and rhythmic structures of his own music_. Following his increasing involvement in the collection and study of folk music, the Second Quartet shows a more direct use of folksong than the First. The discovery of unusual scale structures provided him with new melodic and harmonic formations to explore in response to the general weakening of tonality at the beginning of the twentieth century, although his use of folk music is not yet all-encompassing. The piece contains the seeds for the full germination of Bartók's compositional style in the Third and Fourth Quartets, completed in 1927 and 1928 respectively." (pp. 151-152)

*4th Quartet & Use of Folk Material:* "In the Fourth Quartet, Bartók's solution to the problem of the new music is different from the Third: his inspiration is derived specifically from folk music, even though he avoids direct quotations. One of his recommendations to composers was 'not [to] make use of a real peasant melody' but to 'invent [an] imitation' of it: for the most part it was less important for Bartók to copy an exact folk melody than to let the music be 'pervaded by the atmosphere of peasant music'. For instance, an immediately striking feature of the cello's rhapsodic parlando rubato melody in the third movement is the downbeat semiquaver/dotted-quaver rhythm intrinsic to Hungarian prosody: the strong-beat start to the phrase is indigenous to 'old'-style Hungarian melodies. This type of melody,whose 'long notes are encircled by shorter ornamental notes', is identified by Judit Frigyesi as 'a lament or slow verbunkos belonging to the Hungarian tradition'. Yet the construction of the melody throughout the movement also fits Bartók's description of the Romanian hora lunga˘: 'a single melody in numerous variants. Its features are strong, instrumental character, very ornamented, and indeterminate content structure'." (p. 162)

*Bartok on the Arch Form of the 4th Quartet*: Bartok, quoted by Bailey, p. 160: "the slow movement is the kernel of the work; the other movements are, as it were, arranged in layers around it.Movement IV. is a free variation of II., and I. and V. have the same thematic material; that is, around the kernel (Movement III.), metaphorically speaking, I. and V. are the outer, II. and IV. are the inner layers."

*Richard Taruskin, Oxford History of Western Music, vol. 4: Early Twentieth Century,* p. 400:

*On the Arch Form of the 4th Quartet*: "The Fourth String Quartet (1928), completed six years earlier than _Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta_, is often looked upon as the culmination or far-out-point string of Bartók's maximalist explorations. It brings his preoccupations with symmetry to a peak that encompasses two musical dimensions: both the 'vertical' dimension of harmony, as in the works we have already considered [e.g. _Bagatelles, Music for Strings_], and the 'horizontal' dimension of form as it unfolds in time. In it he deployed for the first time the all-encompassing symmetry of 'bridge form,' as he called it, meaning the casting of the constituent sections in a movement (like the nocturnal slow movement of the _Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta_) or even the constituent movmeents in a full-length 'classical' composition like a string quartet, in the form of a palindrome. Like several of the works that followed it (including the Fifth Quartet, the Second Piano Concerto, and the Concerto for Orchestra composed in America), the Fourth Quartet contains five movements, in which a unique central movement is flanked fore and aft by neighbors of similar character, while the outer movements draw on a common fund of thematic or motivic material. But when representing the form schematically (as in his preface to the Fourth Quartet), Bartók did not designate the sections simply as ABCBA as one might label the sections of a rondo, but rather ABCB'A', to denote his concern that there be a dynamic forward moementum as well as a sense of return, as in the classical sonata form. To quote László Somfai, the leading Hungarian Bartók scholar, despite all its 'quasi-geometical symmetry,' Bartók's bridge form 'is not static: it does not return to its origins but progresses toward a cathartic outcome,' which of course implies a drama."


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## Mandryka

Alypius said:


> *Bartok on the Arch Form of the 4th Quartet*: Bartok, quoted by Bailey, p. 160: "the slow movement is the kernel of the work; the other movements are, as it were, arranged in layers around it.Movement IV. is a free variation of II., and I. and V. have the same thematic material; that is, around the kernel (Movement III.), metaphorically speaking, I. and V. are the outer, II. and IV. are the inner layers."


This is useful, just because I've been struck by how many performances make it sound like a rag bag of disparate bits of music. I wonder if anyone thinks there is a recording is particularly successful at revealng the architecture.


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## Alypius

Mandryka said:


> This is useful, just because I've been struck by how many performances make it sound like a rag bag of disparate bits of music. I wonder if anyone thinks there is a recording is particularly successful at revealng the architecture.


This one:


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## Avey

Alypius, thanks for the posts. Appreciated.

Something I noticed a while ago was the distance between S.Q. #1 & 2 from 3 & 4. There are nearly thirty years in between the publication of the works. Some of the above notes get to this, making sense of Bartok's musical progression over the years. 

Off my simpleton ear, w/r/t his quartets, I do find that the 4th marks a dramatic progression in rhythmic and thematic impression. That is, the first quartets feel a bit loose and expansive -- without some rhythmic bounds, if you will -- in contrast to the later quartets. Of course, this may just be me. That's just what I hear.


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## Kilgore Trout

Avey said:


> Something I noticed a while ago was the distance between S.Q. #1 & 2 from 3 & 4. There are nearly thirty years in between the publication of the works.


#2 was finished in 1917, #3 in 1927, that is only 10 years. But Bartok's style indeed changed at the end of the 1910's/beginning of the 1920's.


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## Mandryka

Alypius said:


> This one:


This second recording by the Takacs has an outstanding extrovert version of the 4th quartet I agree, I also like the much more cool headed style of the Keller.

For the fourth quartet, there are three which have had an even greater impact than either Keller or Takacs (Decca). They are Juilliard (1950), Tatrai and Zehetmair.


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## Avey

His 1st Q. is so meditative. That opening theme feels as if it should dissipate, or even evolve into something more lively -- reminiscent of Shostakovich's 8th somewhat, no? -- but it just continues on. Interesting that it was his first published S.Q. Anyone know if he wrote this first as well? I would assume so, but never know with publications.


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## science

This has been a phenomenal thread. Thanks to all the contributors!


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## Alypius

Avey said:


> His 1st Q. is so meditative. That opening theme feels as if it should dissipate, or even evolve into something more lively -- reminiscent of Shostakovich's 8th somewhat, no? -- but it just continues on. Interesting that it was his first published S.Q. Anyone know if he wrote this first as well? I would assume so, but never know with publications.


Avey, Here's some notes on Bartok's String Quartet #1. It dates from 1907-08 (one source says it was completed in January 1909), soon after he was appointed to the Budapest Academy of Music. He was just then beginning to earn a reputation as a remarkable virtuoso pianist. Some have referred to this as his first masterpiece. It is his earliest chamber work of any kind. Some make much of biographical background: he had fallen in love with a violinist in 1907, wrote a concerto for her; he was heartbroke when she broke off things; after some dark times (evident in piano works of the period), he fell in love again. His friend Kodaly speaks of the quartet as a "return to life." Such things are rarely central to understanding Bartok's music, but it might have some weight at this stage in his career.

The quartet still shows certain debts to German Romanticism (its harmonies have been compared to Strauss' Elektra which is from the same time) and, for that matter, to Schoenberg's late Romantic style evident in his 1899 _Verklarte Nacht_. The first movement opens with a canon and, from what I have read, shows the influence of the fugue in Beethoven's string quartet, op. 131. The opening canon return at the end of the movement.

The 2nd movement has three themes (1st in 2nd violin; 2nd, a waltz in inner strings above an ostinato; the 3rd above a cello pizzicato). The three are resolved in reverse order, a sort of symmetry that Bartok exploits on a larger scale in his 4th String Quartet (see earlier comments on "arch form").

According to what I have read on the work, Bartok had purchased a copy of the score of Debussy's String Quartet in 1907 and was interested in what French composers were doing. So one might detect certain "impressionist" effects, especially in the 3rd movement. The 3rd movement also has elements of a soaring late-romanticism on the one hand and, on the other, the first fruits of his research into Hungarian folk music, especially its unusual rhythms. It directly quotes a folk melody that Kodaly later made famous in his 1939 "Peacock" Variations.


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## Avey

So...Alypius is winning this thread.


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## hpowders

This may be considered heretical, but the first Bartok quartet has always been my favorite of the six; haunting, almost romantic, unforgettable.

I have the Emerson set and am not happy with it. I would just want the first quartet isolated from the entire set. I wouldn't shell out for another complete set just to get a more satisfactory performance of the first quartet. Hopefully, one day...


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## violadude

The Emerson quartet is absolutely amazing in terms of technical proficiency and the sound their violist gets is powerful as hell, which is nice.

But they often sound quite dry and thin. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't...


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## Guest

This is my favorite Bartok Quartet set:










followed closely by










(They have recorded all six--they just have to be purchased as three separate discs, which makes the Mikrokosmos' set a better deal.)


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## hpowders

violadude said:


> The Emerson quartet is absolutely amazing in terms of technical proficiency and the sound their violist gets is powerful as hell, which is nice.
> 
> But they often sound quite dry and thin. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't...


I find their Mendelssohn is top of the line; Beethoven and Bartok, not.

They do not produce what could be called a warm sound like the Quartetto Italiano used to make.


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## SONNET CLV

I've long admired the Bartok Quartets and have acquired several complete sets on both LP and CD. My perennial favorite is the Fifth Quartet, but that is merely a favorite among a superb set all round.

I first became acquainted with the Bartok Quartets on a set of three LP records published by DOVER. They date to 1967, which is around the time I got mine. They feature the Tátrai Quartet, a Hungarian Quartet which seems to have an affinity for the music. I've heard many interpretations on disc, but never tire of returning to the Tátrai on my old black discs which, fortunately, are still quite playable, having been well cared for. (I see they are still wearing their original plastic shrink wrap covers, which has protected the jackets nicely.)









The picture of the cover of the Bartok Third and Fourth Quartets was lifted from ebay where I see a couple copies of the record available for sale, one as cheap as $3.49 and another for $8.00 or "best offer". If the vinyl is in good shape and you have a turntable, that's a steal of a price for an opportunity to hear these interpretations. I don't know if they've ever been released on CD or in any download format. Perhaps someone out there knows.

I just put No. 4 on the turntable. Stunning opening. These are Stereo pressings, and the quartet members are spread out appropriately in front of me, in a rather expansive sound stage with a rich, authentic string timbre from the recording. (I knew there was a reason I never dumped these albums.)

Reading over the back jacket of DOVER HCR-ST-7973 (which features the Third and Fourth Quartets) I see this comment attributed to Bartok himself: "Our peasant music, naturally, is invariably tonal, if not always in the sense that the inflexible major and minor system is tonal. (An "atonal" folk-music, in my opinion, is unthinkable.) Since we depend upon a tonal basis of this kind in our creative work, it is quite self-evident that our works are quite pronouncedly tonal in type. I must admit, however, that there was a time when I thought I was approaching a species of twelve-tone music. Yet even in works of that period the absolute tonal foundation is unmistakable." That should answer the question about whether the Quartets are atonal or not.

By the way, I see now that the back jacket notes on this DOVER recording were written by none other than composer George Perle who himself wrote several String Quartets which are available on the BRIDGE label and are well worth a listen.

In the meantime, I'm currently enjoying the sounds of the Fourth Quartet, which is still playing. Great stuff!


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## violadude

hpowders said:


> I find their Mendelssohn is top of the line; Beethoven and Bartok, not.
> 
> They do not produce what could be called a warm sound like the *Quartetto Italiano* used to make.


Overall, I haven't found a better Beethoven String Quartet recording than theirs.


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## KenOC

The Tatrai are well-regarded and were re-issued on CD by Hungaraton -- but not now available it seems. My favorite in Bartok has been for a long time the Takacs Quartet.


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## Mandryka

SONNET CLV said:


> I've long admired the Bartok Quartets and have acquired several complete sets on both LP and CD. My perennial favorite is the Fifth Quartet, but that is merely a favorite among a superb set all round.
> 
> I first became acquainted with the Bartok Quartets on a set of three LP records published by DOVER. They date to 1967, which is around the time I got mine. They feature the Tátrai Quartet, a Hungarian Quartet which seems to have an affinity for the music. I've heard many interpretations on disc, but never tire of returning to the Tátrai on my old black discs which, fortunately, are still quite playable, having been well cared for. (I see they are still wearing their original plastic shrink wrap covers, which has protected the jackets nicely.)
> 
> View attachment 44366
> 
> 
> The picture of the cover of the Bartok Third and Fourth Quartets was lifted from ebay where I see a couple copies of the record available for sale, one as cheap as $3.49 and another for $8.00 or "best offer". If the vinyl is in good shape and you have a turntable, that's a steal of a price for an opportunity to hear these interpretations. I don't know if they've ever been released on CD or in any download format. Perhaps someone out there knows.
> 
> I just put No. 4 on the turntable. Stunning opening. These are Stereo pressings, and the quartet members are spread out appropriately in front of me, in a rather expansive sound stage with a rich, authentic string timbre from the recording. (I knew there was a reason I never dumped these albums.)
> 
> Reading over the back jacket of DOVER HCR-ST-7973 (which features the Third and Fourth Quartets) I see this comment attributed to Bartok himself: "Our peasant music, naturally, is invariably tonal, if not always in the sense that the inflexible major and minor system is tonal. (An "atonal" folk-music, in my opinion, is unthinkable.) Since we depend upon a tonal basis of this kind in our creative work, it is quite self-evident that our works are quite pronouncedly tonal in type. I must admit, however, that there was a time when I thought I was approaching a species of twelve-tone music. Yet even in works of that period the absolute tonal foundation is unmistakable." That should answer the question about whether the Quartets are atonal or not.
> 
> By the way, I see now that the back jacket notes on this DOVER recording were written by none other than composer George Perle who himself wrote several String Quartets which are available on the BRIDGE label and are well worth a listen.
> 
> In the meantime, I'm currently enjoying the sounds of the Fourth Quartet, which is still playing. Great stuff!


The Tatrai 6 is also good.


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## Mandryka

Anyone enjoy listening to the later books of Mikrokosmos? Or the Etudes?


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## 38157

Bartok's 2nd string quartet is a beatiful piece of composition, particularly the first movement - there is a dolce segment near the end in 6/8 (although a hemiola is used, so it sounds like a march) which is one of the most conventionally melodic things I've ever heard, but it is shortlived, being juxtaposed with a more dramatic and dissonant reiteration of a cell from the melody (it occurs about 7 minutes in, depending on who plays it). Bartok clearly understood balance very well and what I like is that his string quartets sound to me like they have very distinct sections, but nevertheless retain coherence. They're all fantastic (I like the 3rd particularly also), but the 2nd is the one I return to most often.


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## Vaneyes

Mandryka said:


> Anyone enjoy listening to the later books of Mikrokosmos? Or the Etudes?


I don't pick 'n choose. As with most "serial" works, I like the progression.:tiphat:


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## starthrower

Kontrapunctus said:


> This is my favorite Bartok Quartet set:


Is this available in standard CD form? Description says SACD hardware required.


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## Alypius

starthrower said:


> Is this available in standard CD form? Description says SACD hardware required.


I see that on the Amazon page, but in the upper corner of the album it says "HSACD ... hybrid disc". Normally "hybrids" are playable on an ordinary CD. Amazon also has a page in its "Digital Music" section which says that on July 14, 2014, this will become available as a download (and thus considerably less expensive than the current import price).


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## starthrower

^^^
I'm comparing this to the Alban Berg set I have. The Mikrokosmos recording sounds a bit warmer and more full bodied, which is what I'm looking for.


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## Blake

Bartok has become one of my all-time favorites, and I'm still having trouble fully grasping his quartets. They're deadly little things. Spikey and intimidating... These aren't faint-hearted works. I'm sure with time I'll find the honey in this hive. The Takacs does a great job.


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> Is this available in standard CD form? Description says SACD hardware required.


It's only available in this format, but it will play on a standard CD; you'll just lose the extra warmth and detail of the SACD audio. If you buy it from a seller rather than Amazon itself, the set costs only $23.47, quite a bargain.


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## Mandryka

Here's the Ebène Quartet playing the 4th, rather well I think


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## shadowdancer

I've been listening to some Barktok lately and would like to bring some input to the discussion.

String Quartet (a fine interpretation)








A bit off topic but on the same composer:


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## Avey

Piano Quintet is seriously profound. 

That is all.


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## Triplets

violadude said:


> Overall, I haven't found a better Beethoven String Quartet recording than theirs.


Ugh. I detest the Emerson's Beethoven cycle as much as I enjoy their Bartok. What other Beethoven Cycles are you comparing them to, Violadude?


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## violadude

Triplets said:


> Ugh. I detest the Emerson's Beethoven cycle as much as I enjoy their Bartok. What other Beethoven Cycles are you comparing them to, Violadude?


Oh no. I was saying that I really like the Quartetto Italiano Beethoven string quartet cycle, not the Emerson's


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## Alypius

Triplets said:


> Ugh. I detest the Emerson's Beethoven cycle as much as I enjoy their Bartok. What other Beethoven Cycles are you comparing them to, Violadude?


Triplets, Can we keep this thread focused on Bartok? There are other threads with ample discussion of Beethoven cycles. Thanks.


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## Alypius

Some notes on Bartok's 5th Quartet: 

I should begin by noting that while I love all six of Bartok's, this is my favorite. And it is my favorite because of its ferocious rhythms, its marvelous melodies, and simply brilliant architecture whose repeated parallels give it a tight coherence and integrity.

Like a number of other works of Bartok (Piano Concerto #2, String Quartet #4, Concerto for Orchestra), this five-movement work follows an "arch form". In other words, the first movement (Allegro) and the fifth movement (Finale: Allegro vivace-Presto) are parallel, as are the second movement (Adagio molto) and the fourth movement (Andante), while the third movement sits at the center of the arch. The opening movement opens with ferocious, even savage rhythms. Yet it is in sonata form with three intertwining threads: the repeated rhythm figure, a second rhythmic figure overlaid with short melodic fragments, and a flowing melody in triple rhythm. The second movement is another of Bartok's "night music" (trills, tremolos, pizzicatos, emphemeral scales), punctuated with lush searching melodies (and melodic fragments). Lots of "insects" buzzing amid longings and yearnings. The third movement -- which is the capstone for the arch -- is itself symmetical, since it follows a scherzo - trio - scherzo pattern. The opening rhythm is almost a funky strut. The heart of it is one of folk dances that Bartok either recorded (or it's an imitation) (Bartok calls it "alla bulgarese"). The closing scherzo is almost frantic, an exhausting dance. The fourth movement is essentially variations on the second. The Finale, after a few notes, returns to the ferocious rhythmic opening of the first. One famous--satirical--moment towards the end is a barrel-organ parody of the main theme, a drunken, staggering, slowed down version. And then the final intricately-threaded climax. It ends so abruptly as to catch one off guard.


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## Mandryka

What do the Bartok people think of the 44 violin duos. This mixture of traditional music and more modern styles-- is there a performance which brings out the innovation rather than the folklore (that's just reflecting my own musical preferences)? Is it all interesting to hear (unlike mikrokosmos) -- or is there a best bit? I notice that bitonal music comes up pretty early on -- in Bk 1. I hadn't noticed much interesting music in the early books of mikrokosmos -- maybe someone will put me right about that. There are recordings of the violin duos for cello and viola, and there's also the Petite Suite. Any of these things revealing, exciting?


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## Triplets

In the lp era, the Bartok cycle would comfortably occupy 3 lps, and there was no perceived need for a "filler." In the CD era many cycles have had Added Quartets by other Composers to fill out the CDs. I've seen sets that added the Ravel, or one of the Janacek, or Ligetti Quartets.
The Bartok Quartets are so unique that I think such efforts are artistically misguided. The Ligetti First Quartet is clearly influenced by the Bartok so it makes some sense. Janacek uses the rhythms and cadences of Czech speech, so there may be a parallel with Bartok, but I think Bartok use of folk materials is very different, more like Stravinsky, so that I think these Composers made strange disc mates. I understand that Bartok may have been influenced by Ravel and/or Debussy, but the gulf between Bartok and those two again makes for an odd pairing.
I guess in the download/streaming era such pairing considerations will become irrelevant.


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## starthrower

Anybody familiar with the Alexander Quartet cycle?


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## Morimur

Bartók deserves a complete works box set, as the Hungaroton box is long out of print: an injustice!


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## starthrower

Not the subject of this thread, but many of those complete works sets leave a lot to be desired. Cheapo packaging with unreadable type.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the Takacs String Quartet set.


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> Anybody familiar with the Alexander Quartet cycle?


They are artists in residence in my hometown, but I haven't attended any of their concerts yet. They sound pretty good--perhaps I should give them a shot!


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## starthrower

Yeah, they do sound good! I may pick up that set at some point.


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## Mandryka

There's an earlier quartet 6 from the Alexander Quartet which is outstanding. I've enjoyed that complete set rather less.


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## starthrower

^^^
I ended up buying the Takacs set last night after listening to No. 1 on YouTube. 
That performance really floored me!


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## Triplets

Don't know if it was mentioned yet, but the first Julliard Quartet cycle recorded when the last works were quite new has been reissued by Pristine, to glowing reviews.


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## tdc

Mandryka said:


> What do the Bartok people think of the 44 violin duos. This mixture of traditional music and more modern styles-- is there a performance which brings out the innovation rather than the folklore (that's just reflecting my own musical preferences)? Is it all interesting to hear (unlike mikrokosmos) -- or is there a best bit? I notice that bitonal music comes up pretty early on -- in Bk 1. I hadn't noticed much interesting music in the early books of mikrokosmos -- maybe someone will put me right about that. There are recordings of the violin duos for cello and viola, and there's also the Petite Suite. Any of these things revealing, exciting?


I'll leave it to others to recommend a recording, but as far as Mikrokosmos I'm currently working on the early books and feel that the pieces range from good to excellent, which I find pretty much consistent with the rest Bartok's oeuvre. Full of impressive, unique and sometimes haunting melodies, intricate and vital rhythms, themes and fantastic counterpoint. I think its all interesting to hear!


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## Mandryka

Alypius said:


> Some notes on Bartok's 5th Quartet:
> 
> I should begin by noting that while I love all six of Bartok's, this is my favorite. And it is my favorite because of its ferocious rhythms, its marvelous melodies, and simply brilliant architecture whose repeated parallels give it a tight coherence and integrity.
> 
> Like a number of other works of Bartok (Piano Concerto #2, String Quartet #4, Concerto for Orchestra), this five-movement work follows an "arch form". In other words, the first movement (Allegro) and the fifth movement (Finale: Allegro vivace-Presto) are parallel, as are the second movement (Adagio molto) and the fourth movement (Andante), while the third movement sits at the center of the arch. The opening movement opens with ferocious, even savage rhythms. Yet it is in sonata form with three intertwining threads: the repeated rhythm figure, a second rhythmic figure overlaid with short melodic fragments, and a flowing melody in triple rhythm. The second movement is another of Bartok's "night music" (trills, tremolos, pizzicatos, emphemeral scales), punctuated with lush searching melodies (and melodic fragments). Lots of "insects" buzzing amid longings and yearnings. The third movement -- which is the capstone for the arch -- is itself symmetical, since it follows a scherzo - trio - scherzo pattern. The opening rhythm is almost a funky strut. The heart of it is one of folk dances that Bartok either recorded (or it's an imitation) (Bartok calls it "alla bulgarese"). The closing scherzo is almost frantic, an exhausting dance. The fourth movement is essentially variations on the second. The Finale, after a few notes, returns to the ferocious rhythmic opening of the first. One famous--satirical--moment towards the end is a barrel-organ parody of the main theme, a drunken, staggering, slowed down version. And then the final intricately-threaded climax. It ends so abruptly as to catch one off guard.


This is the Kelemen Quartet playing the 5th live, I've been listening to it these past few days, I can email you the whole thing if you're interested. They've recorded it in the studio, it's been released


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## Mandryka

tdc said:


> I'll leave it to others to recommend a recording, but as far as Mikrokosmos I'm currently working on the early books and feel that the pieces range from good to excellent, which I find pretty much consistent with the rest Bartok's oeuvre. Full of impressive, unique and sometimes haunting melodies, intricate and vital rhythms, themes and fantastic counterpoint. I think its all interesting to hear!


What would be fantastic would be if you could mention the parts of the earlier books which you enjoy the most - that would encourage me to listen to Books 1 through 3 again. As far as recordings go, I've started to enjoy Ranki much more than when I first heard how he plays it. And in his way Jeno Jando seems very convincing to me. I have made a transfer of Kovacevich playing Bks 5 and 6 which I put on symphonyshare.

There's a big question in playing Bartok, about just how aggressively to play it. The composers own style and Gregor Sandor seem less violent than (eg) Kocsis, and I think that shows the emotional side of the music better.

You have the same issue with the quartets - it's one of my reservations about the Kelemen performance I just posted here, I'm not sure. My favourite in that quartet is still Zehetmair I think.


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## tdc

Mandryka said:


> What would be fantastic would be if you could mention the parts of the earlier books which you enjoy the most - that would encourage me to listen to Books 1 through 3 again. As far as recordings go, I've started to enjoy Ranki much more than when I first heard how he plays it. And in his way Jeno Jando seems very convincing to me. I have made a transfer of Kovacevich playing Bks 5 and 6 which I put on symphonyshare.
> 
> There's a big question in playing Bartok, about just how aggressively to play it. The composers own style and Gregor Sandor seem less violent than (eg) Kocsis, and I think that shows the emotional side of the music better.
> 
> You have the same issue with the quartets - it's one of my reservations about the Kelemen performance I just posted here, I'm not sure. My favourite in that quartet is still Zehetmair I think.


Well as far as Book I, I remember especially enjoying the modal pieces towards the end of it. I'm actually not even that far into Book II right now, but can certainly recommend exercises - 41 - _Melody w/ Accompaniment_, 42 - _Accompaniment in Broken Triads_, and 47 - _Country Fair_.


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## Mandryka

I've started to explore the Ramor Quartet, starting with 5, which is very distinctive, no violence of agressive drive at all, lyrical.


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## Avey

So, I saw the Takacs Quartet perform, among other works, Bartok's Fourth last night.

Definitely one of those moments where you will not forgot what it sounded like. Particularly, after hearing that work live, _every_ recording now pales in comparison. And I do not say that just because it felt more intense or, obviously, well-performed.

Instead, there is a gritty, rambunctious, innately rhythmic nature to this piece that I have always _heard_, but never _felt_. Played live, you can feel those dissonant and arrhythmic tendencies; note the sporadic pauses between instruments; not realize the (obvious and minute) thematic similarities between the outside (1,2,4,5) movements. Everything _genius_ in this work becomes readily apparent.

In particular, I want to share two things that I greatly appreciated:

1. Edward Dusinberre, first violin, shared some words before the piece, and he called the second movement, with its rather quiet yet quick dynamic, almost "spectral." I love that. The movement passes so quickly and you wonder what the hell just crept by. This movement definitely has bizarre, edgy, and "spectral" tones.

2. While the piece has a structural arc shape, it also has an emotional arc; never before has that _lento_ felt so refreshing. I have always heard the drone on recording, but live, I finally notice _how_. For nearly three minutes, only the cello plays, and the other strings create this mystical ambience -- absolutely amazing, almost cathartic. And enlightening, for I never really considered how this movement was constructed structurally. Almost entirely homophonic lines here (no?), when the cello and violin play their solo parts.

Also, being the zenith of the piece (or nadir, as some may see it), Dusinberre characterized it as a "cleansing" moment, where the latter movements reflect a cleaner, slightly more playful style. Thought that was well said. But duh.


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## Heliogabo

I really enjoy this little known but delightful set. Plenty of visceral emotion and the sound quality is great..


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## hoodjem

Avey said:


> Unsurprisingly, the Fourth Quartet was the ingress of my exploring Bartok's entire repertoire. Yet the structure and literal, tonal aspects of the piece escape me, like much of his music.
> 
> I've read that Bartok commonly incorporated mathematical concepts/approaches into his compositions -- the fourth being one of them. The piece is structured as an arc, with themes and elements mirrored apart from the middle _lento_. This is only me reciting some of what I read and understood. I may be far off base. But is this approach unique? Does that lend itself to the novel sound?
> 
> Generally, I'm interested in _why_ Bartok's quartets sound the way they do. Is _atonal_ the right description? I truly don't know; a trained musician's perspective would be appreciated.


I once heard an episode of a radio program called _Exploring_ _Music_ (from WFMT in Chicago) by Bill McGlaughlin on Bartok's String Quartets. He was relating the strange rhythms and tonalities to Bartok's study of Hungarian folk songs.

He would play an excerpt of a primitive, scratchy recording of a Hungarian folk song, then discuss what was going on. Then he would play an excerpt from one of the the string quartets. The resemblance was undeniable.


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