# More depressing Bach works?



## dillonp2020

I find much of Bach's music very lively, which is magnificent, but not quite my taste. I have only found one Bach piece I truly love--Partita no.2 in D minor-- and I am looking for more like it. If one could make a few suggestions, it would be most appreciated.


----------



## Tchaikov6

*English Suites Nos. 2 and 5*- a lot of variety, and I've been enjoying them lately.

*Mass in B Minor*- Maybe don't start with this, it's very heavy and requires a lot of deep and focused listening (at least for me). But once you get used to Bach, listen to this, and you will be blown away!

*Well-Tempered Clavier*- If you're looking for "depressing Bach" like you said in the title, there's plenty of depressing music in the Well-Tempered Clavier (try the E-flat Minor Prelude and Fugue in Book 1 to start)

*Concerto for 2 Violins in D Minor*- The outer movements are dark while the inner one is sweet and beautiful.

*Violin Concerto in A Minor*- Another great concerto.

There's plenty of "depressing" music by Bach, but these are some great starters.


----------



## Mandryka

dillonp2020 said:


> I find much of Bach's music very lively, which is magnificent, but not quite my taste. I have only found one Bach piece I truly love--Partita no.2 in D minor-- and I am looking for more like it. If one could make a few suggestions, it would be most appreciated.


Some people think this is a piece of mourning music, I agree that it is tremendous. Have you heard the cello suites? If you have spotify listen to the way Dmitri Badiarov plays the second cello suite, which is also in D minor.

But if this is the sort of mood you like, there are interesting examples by other composers. Some of the keyboard music that Froberger wrote may be your cup of tea - maybe check the Naxos CD by Sergio Vartolo, since I think he's very much in tune with the depressing side of Froberger's "death music"

(I can't help but note that the D minor partita is the second in the set, and the D minor cello suite is the second in its set, I've never noticed that before.)


----------



## Pugg

I get the creeps from those heavy organ works......


----------



## hpowders

I think the word "depressing" is the wrong word. Perhaps "serious" is more in tune with what the OP is looking for.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

hpowders said:


> I think the word "depressing" is the wrong word. Perhaps "serious" is more in tune with what the OP is looking for.


absolutely agree. The solo partita contains some of the most beautiful, uplifting music I have come across. It brightens up one's life ..... 'cleans the ears' as Kleiber is reported to have said.


----------



## hpowders

Headphone Hermit said:


> absolutely agree. The solo partita contains some of the most beautiful, uplifting music I have come across. It brightens up one's life ..... 'cleans the ears' as Kleiber is reported to have said.


Of course, I agree. I myself would never confuse "depressing" with "ecstatic".


----------



## premont

Generally I find Bach's music uplifting in its seriousness whether sacred or secular. The only piece by him, which sometimes can make me decidedly sad, is the sarabande from the fifth suite for solo cello.


----------



## SONNET CLV

dillonp2020 said:


> *More depressing Bach works? *


*

The only thing depressing about Bach works is that there aren't enough of them! I would love to have a couple hundred more Cantatas, several dozen more Brandenburg Concerti, violin partitas, cello suites, organ chorales, masses, motets, violin sonatas ...*


----------



## Bulldog

The Art of Fugue is loaded with serious musical expression.


----------



## Pugg

Bulldog said:


> The Art of Fugue is loaded with serious musical expression.


Agree , but not depressing.


----------



## Bruckner Anton

Actually, he wrote a lot of religious works that are quite depressing and serious. I would suggest paying special attention to his works in minor keys which usually sound "darker" than major keys. Especially the key of E minor, which Bach use to imply the meaning of "bearing the cross" (because the sign "#" in German is "Kreuz", same word as "cross"). For example, his cantata BWV4 and the opening of the Mathew Passion BWV244 are set in E minor, which are some of his most serious and mournful music.


----------



## Woodduck

Some of the chorale preludes for organ are very dark, sad and lonely-sounding. Just the thing to have playing when you're confined to your bed with flu on a dark, wet winter day and your wife walks in with a gorgeous hunk twenty years younger than you with ripped abs and shoulder length hair and asks for a divorce.


----------



## Pugg

Woodduck said:


> Some of the chorale preludes for organ are very dark, sad and lonely-sounding. Just the thing to have playing when you're confined to your bed with flu on a dark, wet winter day and your wife walks in with a gorgeous hunk twenty years younger than you with ripped abs and shoulder length hair and asks for a divorce.


This is just the fever speaking I hope?


----------



## Marc

Well, to me, if slow music in minor keys would be depressing, I would be dead for deacades already.

About the opening chorus of the SMP: I find it beautiful and very moving, but not depressing at all. The closing lines _Sehet ihn aus Lieb und Huld / Holz zum Kreuze selber tragen_ and _Erbarm dich unser, o Jesu_ are expressions of forgiveness and consolation for me. It grabs me in an invigorating way. After listening to it, I want to hear it again.

I've seen cantatas like BWV 56 and 82 often desribed as sad and depressing. Again, I find them uplifting. "Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen..." I would _like_ to bear the crossbar with *pleasure*. Nothing sad about that IMO. BWV 82: about the song of Simeon, who asked God to die because he has never been so happy. "Ich freue mich auf meinen Tod." A bit odd maybe for many modern ears in modern times (I'm not a faithful Christian myself, either), but Bach's music is so convincing to me that I can almost naturally identify with it.

Well, the list could be endless. And not just for Bach. Maybe I would do best to conclude that I do not know of any depressing music, except music that I dislike very much.


----------



## Mandryka

Woodduck said:


> Some of the chorale preludes for organ are very dark, sad and lonely-sounding.


Which ones are you thinking of?


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Woodduck said:


> Some of the chorale preludes for organ are very dark, sad and lonely-sounding. Just the thing to have playing when you're confined to your bed with flu on a dark, wet winter day and your wife walks in with a gorgeous hunk twenty years younger than you with ripped abs and shoulder length hair and asks for a divorce.


you should worry when she walks in with a wrinkled wreck twenty years older than you with a pot belly and a comb-over, asks for a divorce and tells you that you can't stay in that bed any longer :lol:


----------



## Pugg

Mandryka said:


> Which ones are you thinking of?


Like...the most


----------



## Marc

Pugg said:


> Like...the most


Funny (NOT depressing! ) how taste in and reception of music can differ.

After listening to f.i. the 18 _Leipzig chorales_, the so-called _Orgelmesse_ (Clavier-Übung III) and the _Orgelbüchlein_ I always feel strengthened and refreshed.


----------



## Pugg

Marc said:


> Funny (NOT depressing! ) how taste in and reception of music can differ.
> 
> After listening to f.i. the 18 _Leipzig chorales_, the so-called _Orgelmesse_ (Clavier-Übung III) and the _Orgelbüchlein_ I always feel strengthened and refreshed.


You give the answer yourself, I must admit, not a real fanatic organ fan.
( I dive now)


----------



## Marc

Pugg said:


> You give the answer yourself, I must admit, not a real fanatic organ fan.
> ( I dive now)


Relax.
I've met many of them before, and they're still alive (I think).


----------



## Forss

_Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier_ (BWV 634) from his _Orgelbüchlein_ is almost certainly the most grief-stricken piece of music ever written. The organ is basically crying (heavily) for about two minutes, and then one's left with this queer feeling of utter meaninglessness.


----------



## hpowders

True. The sarabandes are Bach at his most serious, whether it be the keyboard partitas, cello suites or unaccompanied violin sonatas.

No problem for me. At social functions, I would only do the slow dances anyway.


----------



## Bulldog

Forss said:


> _Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier_ (BWV 634) from his _Orgelbüchlein_ is almost certainly the most grief-stricken piece of music ever written. The organ is basically crying (heavily) for about two minutes, and then one's left with this queer feeling of utter meaninglessness.


Interesting. I find BWV 634 rather uplifting.


----------



## JeffD

The II Adagio section of Bach Harpsichord Concerto No 1 in D minor, BWV 1052. Not depressing, but yearning for some kind of a smile.


----------



## eugeneonagain

Bulldog said:


> Interesting. I find BWV 634 rather uplifting.


Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. Someone chose it for my grandfather's funeral service (probably himself) and I remember thinking that it was uplifting. It sounds slightly different on # different organs, but I've never felt it to be depressing and certainly not like weeping.


----------



## Forss

I can see why one would think that, and how one can find strength in rather sad pieces, too. Perhaps it's uplifting _eo ipso_?


----------



## Marc

Forss said:


> _Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier_ (BWV 634) from his _Orgelbüchlein_ is almost certainly the most grief-stricken piece of music ever written. The organ is basically crying (heavily) for about two minutes, and then one's left with this queer feeling of utter meaninglessness.


In your reception then, Bach utterly failed to express the mood of the chorale lyrics.

_Dearest Jesus, we are here
To listen to you and your word.
Direct our minds and desires
to the delightful teaching of heaven:
so that from the earth our hearts
may be completely drawn to you._

To me, all Bach's organ chorales on _Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier_ have a moving and comforting effect.
(But again: taste and reception differ.)


----------



## bioluminescentsquid

The Gigue of the 1st French suite (BWV 812).

There's something extremely menacing about this movement, as if something is crawling towards you and you're choking from a panic attack.

And of course, I've had many people tell me that the famous "canon a 2 per tonos" (you know, the one everyone knows from Godel Escher Bach) sounds disorienting (of course) and somewhat unnerving.

The Allegro of BWV 1003 and the opening of BWV 922 also sound quite haunting, but everything else not mentioned by Bach is beautiful, comforting - there's even hope in the darkest parts of the St. Matthew Passion, or when he cries out de profundis in Clavier Ubung III.


----------



## premont

bioluminescentsquid said:


> The Gigue of the 1st French suite (BWV 812).
> 
> There's something extremely menacing about this movement, as if something is crawling towards you and you're choking from a panic attack.


Depends much upon whether it is played in binary or triple rhythm. This a matter of dispute, as for the gigue of the sixth partita. The most probable (it is after all about gigues) is triple rhythm, but as to me I prefer binary rhythm, this being the most expressive.


----------



## premont

Marc said:


> In your reception then, Bach utterly failed to express the mood of the chorale lyrics.
> 
> To me, all Bach's organ chorales on _Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier_ have a *moving and comforting effect*.
> (But again: taste and reception differ.)


Agree very much.

A rendering with reeds (vox humana) and tremulant may sound disturbing, and some organists play it (BWV 633/634) in that way, but this is not the way I prefer it.


----------



## Marc

bioluminescentsquid said:


> [...] there's even hope in the darkest parts of the St. Matthew Passion, or when he cries out de profundis in Clavier Ubung III.


The latter (BWV 686) is one of my favourites, although I do understand when people get anxious listening to this pleno piece with thundering pedal tones. I'm not a religious person, but mostly this piece fills me with strength, because it somehow appeals to my stronger self.


----------



## Marc

premont said:


> Agree very much.
> 
> A rendering with reeds (vox humana) and tremulant may sound disturbing, and some organists play it (BWV 633/634) in that way, but this is not the way I prefer it.


Yes, choice of registration can make a huge difference.

Sidestep:
I attended Wim van Beek's final organ demonstration in the Groningen Martinikerk (must have been in 2014). Hidden from our eyesight, behind the _Rugpositief_, he was talking with a soft, almost weak voice about the _Vox humana_ stop, saying something like "this stop was meant to represent the human voice, but the attempt was not always succesful. If you attend an organ concert and you hear something that sounds like a mocking goat, then it's probably the _Vox humana_."


----------



## bioluminescentsquid

premont said:


> Depends much upon whether it is played in binary or triple rhythm. This a matter of dispute, as for the gigue of the sixth partita. The most probable (it is after all about gigues) is triple rhythm, but as to me I prefer binary rhythm, this being the most expressive.


Haha, the gigue of the 6th partita is indeed controversial (listening to Wim Winters' recording of it now; it's quite odd in it sounds like triple meter but is in binary); Bach is notorious for writing gigue-like pieces that aren't true gigues.


----------

