# Corrected Poll: Greatest Wagnerian Soprano



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Sorry for the multiple post. I left out Nilsson. Yikes! Try this poll instead.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Waltraud Meier...................not on the poll?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Waltraud Meier...................not on the poll?


Waltraud Meier is quite wonderful, but I've never heard her put above Nilsson by anyone. I only know her Isolde video but am not aware if her voice is of the same gargantuan size as the above mentioned divas. Certainly she would be by far the most beautiful of the divas and one of the best actresses if grouped with the women I put in the poll. At her peak G. Jones was also fabulous! But I would rather hear Flagstad.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

I have to agree with Seattleoperafan. I've just listened, once again, to the 1936 Tristan und Isolde with Melchior and Flagstad. Even with the age of the recording and the prehistoric technology that produced it, Flagstad leaves everyone else behind. Strength of voice, technique and yet maintaining an astounding beauty of sound.


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## svstats (Jul 1, 2013)

I voted for Flagstad, not that I am anywhere old enough to know but just based on what I can gather to the best of my ability!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm glad to see Traubel got a vote. To me her voice was maybe even more beautiful than Flagstad and of astonishing size, but her top was much more iffy. She began as a contralto and pushed her voice up. The top began it's retreat fairly early. I love her very much and no one does the Liebestod like she does.


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## badRomance (Nov 22, 2011)

Flagstad's voice is warmer and had fantastic mid and low notes but it appears Flagstad was afraid of those high notes. Even in the 1938 video where she was introduced by Bob Hope, she sang Hojotoho transposed down. There is a recording of her singing that high C in Götterdämmerung and it rang like a golden bell so it seems it was at least partly a mental obstacle. Nilsson is not as warm but I find her more expressive overall, and she confronted those high notes head on. Both ladies produce high notes that shimmer. But I have to put my vote for Nilsson.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

I would have thought that Frida Leider is Flagstad's true alternative,but you won't find many here who know of her I suppose.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Waltraud Meier...................not on the poll?


She cannot be considered as she did not sing Brünnhilde as all the listed sopranos on the Poll did.

Flagstad is the One - Frida Leider is also a good idea, but unfortunately none of her greatest days were recorded.
We have only the bits and pieces to judge her by, whereas with Flagstad we have all the pre-war CG and MET recordings and the post war Ring and Tristan with Furtwängler.
Her nearest rival would have to be Nilsson.
Traubel was good, but not that good.Varnay was the more accomplished Wagnerian.
Flagstad -1 
Varnay - 2
Nilsson - 3
Leider - 4
Shuard - 5 (my write in vote)
G. Jones. 6
Dvorakova - 7
Traubel would come somewhere about here.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Pip said:


> She cannot be considered as she did not sing Brünnhilde as all the listed sopranos on the Poll did.
> 
> Flagstad is the One - Frida Leider is also a good idea, but unfortunately none of her greatest days were recorded.
> We have only the bits and pieces to judge her by, whereas with Flagstad we have all the pre-war CG and MET recordings and the post war Ring and Tristan with Furtwängler.
> ...


Glad to see her on the list.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

My list of personal favourites among those five wonderful singers is pretty similar to Pip's:

Flagstad
Varnay
Nilsson
Leider
Traubel


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I LOVE the first live stereo Ring recorded from Bayreuth with Varnay. I find her voice to be so distinctly emotionally moving and as much as I love Birgit, I might place her higher. Many opera fans are just not familiar with her. She was the same age as Nilsson but because her Met career began at 23 her best years vocally peaked in the 50's before the recorded opera industry really took off.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Frida Leider is the soprano who between the wars embodied more than any other the ideal of the Wagnerian dramatic soprano.
She was an adored favourite at Covent Garden as far as London Audiences were concerned and not displaced by Flagstad.
Many of her records are landmarks of vocal production, she had a dark-coloured,ample and well-trained voice of lovely quality.
She recorded with Melchior and Schorr and these and others are available including live recordings.
Pip's remarks about only bits and pieces being available hold no water, we have no complete operas with Caruso available but can soon make a decision re: his quality after hearing a few of his recordings..


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I vote Nilsson. I particularly enjoy her performance as Isolde on this recording (Solti & Wiener Phil):


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

This is, of course, highly subjective. There is no doubt that vocally no-one bettered Nilsson. Her voice was astounding. Just listen to the Bohm Tristan where at the end the voice sails over the full orchestra. Amazing! She was, however, a bit one-dimensional, although that dimension was formidable, to say the least.
I'm listening to Denersch as Isolde and though the voice is nowhere near as good you somehow get to love the character in a wAy you don't with Nilsson. I believe it was Robin Holloway who described the lovers on the Solti recording as a 'spider pair' a powerless male and a devouring female! It's a bit like that on the Bohm and it's not helped by the fact that Windgassen is usually unfavourably balanced. However his experience and musicianship see him through which is more than can be said for Fritz Uhl.
I'd say Nilsson was a superb Valkyrie but a rather unlovable Isolde. But still one of the century's great voices.
I've heard Varnay on the Krauss Ring - a more mezzo tone than Nilsson but a truly great vocal actress. Mind you, she sure hits the top notes in the Immolation Scene. I'd put her as one of the greats. Flagstad also from what I've heard but her best days were before WW2.
One question: why don't we appear to have any successors to Varnay, Nilsson, etc. or am I missing something?


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Flagstad's best days were certainly before WW2, so try her Isolde from CG 1937 with Beecham or from the Met 1937 to 1941 various performances. Together with Melchior - unbeatable.
I, like you also have a very soft spot for everything Dernesch ever did. I managed to see her many times and also her transition to mezzo. So I will agree with you there.
However for a "retired" soprano, (Flagstad sang her last stage Isolde in 1951 in Liverpool) her recording with Furtwängler in 1952 is amazing. It is still the yardstick to measure all others.
She rolls back the years.
I can't agree with Mr Moody about Leider - the 1936 Götterdämmerung at Covent Garden show the wear and tear already on her voice and the excerpts from wartime Bayreuth are painful to hear. She was great, but we don't have any live performances
to back that up. Only her Electrola 78's and those "bits and pieces" rule her out of the top three.
With all the other candidates, there is more than ample evidence from recordings AND live performances to decide the issue.
Nilsson's voice was maybe a little one dimensional - but I would gladly love to see her again in all her glory.
Flagstad, Varnay and Nilsson for me.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Add yet another vote for 

1. Flagstad
2. Varnay
3. Nilsson


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PIP.

It would appear that you and I and also J.B.Steane in "The Grand Tradition"are hearing Leider with different ears.Incidentally I have mentioned that there are live recordings available,but you have ignored that for some reason.
This is what Steane says : 
"Furtwaengler conducted two performances of "Goetterdaemerung" at Covent Garden in 1938 (not 1936 ?) and in one of them Leider was the Bruennhilde. Most of act two is on record and it does preserve one of the best opera nights......But above all there is Leider,the intensity of her singing is unmistakeable at the great moments (the cries of "Betrug" for example) but she is also a singer with presence and one is aware of it,majestic and human throughout".
Leider's book "Playing My Part" is a wonderful read by the way.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I like the five sopranos mentioned in the list. This CD published recently contains in the first CD material from three German singers, all born in the 19th century: Frida Leider, Johanna Gadski (older than Leider) and Margarete Baümer (younger than Leider). It's a quite pleasant listening.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

It's relative. I will easily have W. Meier's Kundry over that of Flagstad and Nilsson, even in their prime rib days. And G.Jones unequalled Venus/Elisabeth double header. For Isolde, Flagstad. Brunnhilde, Nilsson.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

moody said:


> PIP.
> 
> It would appear that you and I and also J.B.Steane in "The Grand Tradition"are hearing Leider with different ears.Incidentally I have mentioned that there are live recordings available,but you have ignored that for some reason.
> This is what Steane says :
> ...


Mr Moody the 1936 recording from Covent Garden that I mentioned is just as "LIVE" as the 1938 Act 2 under Furtwängler, which I also have - the 1936 is conducted by BEECHAM, it has also been issued commercially, so I know what I am talking about! There are almost 2 hours of excerpts from the 1936 Götterdämmerung with Leider - she was good, very good, but no match for Flagstad. At no point did I mention Furtwängler and 1936 together - he did not conduct the Ring in 1936- he came for the coronation season in 1937 to conduct the Ring and Flagstad was his Brünnhilde .He also returned in 1938 when Leider sang the roles - I have all the recordings.
I do know John Steane wrote about Leider, I don't happen to agree with him, in fact I did not agree with him on many things.
Whatever presence she may have had, it bears no comparison to Flagstad - so while we are on it - the 1937 Coronation season
- there are over 100 minutes of the Götterdämmerung from that Ring under Furwängler with Flagstad extant, and thankfully there is a duplication of recorded material - the same 30 minute section of Act 2 was recorded in 1937 and 1938, both conducted by Furtwängler with Flagstad(37) and Leider(38) - all commercially available. So it can be easily compared.
Anyone choosing Leider over Flagstad on that evidence (37 against 38) must have either a problem with Flagstad or a hearing deficiency. The evidence is clear. I don't mind that someone does not like KF or prefers another singer, but the recordings are quite clear who the better singer was. I am afraid that Steane was more than a little antipathetic towards Flagstad - his right - but as a critic not being even handed - the 1937 has more power, more drama - it is a about 10 degrees hotter than the '38,
and for whatever reason, Furtwängler himself drives the performance even more than in the following year.
They were both great, and the conductor was even greater, so I am happy to have both.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Pip said:


> Mr Moody the 1936 recording from Covent Garden that I mentioned is just as "LIVE" as the 1938 Act 2 under Furtwängler, which I also have - the 1936 is conducted by BEECHAM, it has also been issued commercially, so I know what I am talking about! There are almost 2 hours of excerpts from the 1936 Götterdämmerung with Leider - she was good, very good, but no match for Flagstad. At no point did I mention Furtwängler and 1936 together - he did not conduct the Ring in 1936- he came for the coronation season in 1937 to conduct the Ring and Flagstad was his Brünnhilde .He also returned in 1938 when Leider sang the roles - I have all the recordings.
> I do know John Steane wrote about Leider, I don't happen to agree with him, in fact I did not agree with him on many things.
> Whatever presence she may have had, it bears no comparison to Flagstad - so while we are on it - the 1937 Coronation season
> - there are over 100 minutes of the Götterdämmerung from that Ring under Furwängler with Flagstad extant, and thankfully there is a duplication of recorded material - the same 30 minute section of Act 2 was recorded in 1937 and 1938, both conducted by Furtwängler with Flagstad(37) and Leider(38) - all commercially available. So it can be easily compared.
> ...


I suppose there is no point in the likes of Mr.Steane much less me arguing the point with you I can see that now of course.
Naturally there would be no point either in mentioning Alan Blyth in "Opera On Record" :
"So we come to the famous private disc which catches the third scene to the end of Act two,Covent garden 1938. Leider is even more involved than on her commercial discs,so much so that she seems to be pushing her conductor to even more speed. Her cries of 'Betrug' are majestic and tragic."
You mention somebody choosing Leider over Flagstad,where did that come from, I voted for Flagstad as it happens.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I love all of the responses.My vote is:
1. Flagstad
2. Varnay
3. Nilsson
4. Traubel
I was very happy to have been able to hear Jane Eaglen in her younger days as Bruinhilde here in Seattle. Not one of the greats, but she certainly was impressive vocally at that time. It was better than having never heard a good dramatic soprano sing Wagner at all. Alas her weight caught up with her breath control. She has been one of the few sopranos who did a good job singing the big Wagner soprano roles after Jones and Marton retired, and they were both much, much better in their younger years. Mozart singers we have in abundance, Wagner not so much. I am hopeful about Lori Phillips who I heard here as Turandot and seemed to have it all.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Let's face it that critics are notoriously subjective. I have read reviews of the same recording where it appears the critics were listening to completely different ones. I remember even when Alan Blyth reviewed Karajan's Ring on CD in the Gramophone he pronounced it "the best recorded of all available Rings." A few months later on the BBC he said he didn't 't like the recording as he deemed it "too artificial!" I don't know whether he'd forgotten what he had put in the gramophone!


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Let's face it that critics are notoriously subjective. I have read reviews of the same recording where it appears the critics were listening to completely different ones. I remember even when Alan Blyth reviewed Karajan's Ring on CD in the Gramophone he pronounced it "the best recorded of all available Rings." A few months later on the BBC he said he didn't 't like the recording as he deemed it "too artificial!" I don't know whether he'd forgotten what he had put in the gramophone!


Yes he was quite good at contradicting himself.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Pip said:


> Yes he was quite good at contradicting himself.


I bet you approve of some critic somewhere,because mere mortals have to get their info from a source of some type when they begin.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Winterreisender said:


> I vote Nilsson. I particularly enjoy her performance as Isolde on this recording (Solti & Wiener Phil):
> 
> View attachment 25721


I remember my high school library had excerpts of this ( boy was that a different era) that I played for my high school German class and disturbed classes up and down the hall! If I didn't know I was different, I did so after that day;-)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I just got got a '53 Bayreuth Tristan with Varnay as Isolde. She is simply amazing! Her turns of phrases rival Callas and in truth the Callas singing with acting revolution had already begun with Varnay and she is no longer associated with it ( along with Modl) because she is largely forgotten today. The only thing most modern opera audiences remember her for is her Klytemnestra video with Rysenek in the movie of Elektra. Only a highly informative article 15 years ago or more in Opera News comparing Nilsson ( who I worship) with Varnay and it's raving about her best of the best recording of Elektra got me familiar with her. If you have never heard her '55 first stereo recording of the Ring from Bayreuth you have done yourself a disservice if you value great Wagnerian singing. I like her better than Birgit in this and that is saying a LOT!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I am doing a Toastmaster speech on Tristan and plan to play an excerpt from the Love Duet. I have an embarrassment of riches in my personal collection to choose from with Flagstad/Melchoir, Varnay/Vinay, and Traubel/ Melchoir. All 3 are astounding and have things to recommend highly in each selection but I think after multiple re-listenings that Traubel is the best Isolde, both from beauty of voice and interpretation.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> This is, of course, highly subjective. There is no doubt that vocally no-one bettered Nilsson. Her voice was astounding. Just listen to the Bohm Tristan where at the end the voice sails over the full orchestra. Amazing! She was, however, a bit one-dimensional, although that dimension was formidable, to say the least.
> I'm listening to Denersch as Isolde and though the voice is nowhere near as good you somehow get to love the character in a wAy you don't with Nilsson. I believe it was Robin Holloway who described the lovers on the Solti recording as a 'spider pair' a powerless male and a devouring female! It's a bit like that on the Bohm and it's not helped by the fact that Windgassen is usually unfavourably balanced. However his experience and musicianship see him through which is more than can be said for Fritz Uhl.
> I'd say Nilsson was a superb Valkyrie but a rather unlovable Isolde. But still one of the century's great voices.
> I've heard Varnay on the Krauss Ring - a more mezzo tone than Nilsson but a truly great vocal actress. Mind you, she sure hits the top notes in the Immolation Scene. I'd put her as one of the greats. Flagstad also from what I've heard but her best days were before WW2.
> One question: why don't we appear to have any successors to Varnay, Nilsson, etc. or am I missing something?


I saw Eaglen as both Bruinhilde and Isolde and she was really wonderful. She could have used more umph in the low lying sections. Otherwise, very fulfilling in the parts, but not in Nilsson or Flagstad's class. People seem to be really impressed with Goerke, but when I heard her she did have some pitch problems. Her voice seems to be of substantial size and beauty, though, and she is a marvelous actress. I hope she is as good as they say.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Why are all the singers in this poll Brunhilde types? What about Schwarzkopf, Grummer, Janowitz and Studer?

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Why are all the singers in this poll Brunhilde types? What about Schwarzkopf, Grummer, Janowitz and Studer?
> 
> N.


For the same reason a poll of best Verdi sopranos would probably include Ponselle, Price, Milanov, Tebaldi, Caballé, though there are an awful lot of Verdi roles these estimable ladies could not, or would not, have sung.

Surely the question one has to ask is, "is there any such thing as a Wagner or Verdi soprano?"


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Why are all the singers in this poll Brunhilde types? What about Schwarzkopf, Grummer, Janowitz and Studer?
> 
> N.


Wagner was at the center of some singers' repertoires, mainly because their vocal characteristics, whether positive (power and declamatory force) or negative (lack of coloratura facility) made them suitable for roles most singers couldn't take on or were too busy in other repertoire to bother with. The mere fact that a soprano is capable of being a really effective Isolde or Brunnhilde is almost enough to brand her "Wagnerian," so it may be a bit sloppy and unfair but not unreasonable to call such sopranos as Flagstad, Traubel, Varnay and Nilsson "Wagnerian." Eileen Farrell probably escaped the designation by insisting on her right to sing the blues, but many of us wish she'd made good on the promise of her several fine Wagner recordings. Thanks to recordings, we think of Frida Leider as a great Wagnerian soprano despite a wide repertoire that included plenty of Italian opera and Mozart.

Unfortunately, as a consequence of the wear and tear of singing the big Wagner parts too frequently with insufficient voice and technique, the term may also suggest vocal characteristics that no singer should want to display. Anyone for wobble? Leider, Flagstad, Traubel and Nilsson got to old age without a trace of it; Modl and Varnay were not so lucky.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> For the same reason a poll of best Verdi sopranos would probably include Ponselle, Price, Milanov, Tebaldi, Caballé, though there are an awful lot of Verdi roles these estimable ladies could not, or would not, have sung.
> 
> *Surely the question one has to ask is, "is there any such thing as a Wagner or Verdi soprano?"*


If vocal ability were the sole criterion, my answer would be, "There shouldn't be." But of course there are other, perhaps subtler, factors determining suitability for certain roles.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Why are all the singers in this poll Brunhilde types? What about Schwarzkopf, Grummer, Janowitz and Studer?
> 
> N.


May I suggest it is because it is the heavy Wagnerian roles that are so fiendishly difficult to fulfill. Studer had a big lyric voice that carried well in a house so Sieglinde and Elsa were not out of her comfort zone. There is no way she could have the stamina or vocal heft to successfully sing isolde or Wotan's daughter.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Eileen Farrell probably escaped the designation by insisting on her right to sing the blues, but many of us wish she'd made good on the promise of her several fine Wagner recordings.


Talking of Eileen Farrell,










:lol::lol::lol:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Talking of Eileen Farrell,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a cracker, Tsaras. Brightened my day!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> May I suggest it is because it is the heavy Wagnerian roles that are so fiendishly difficult to fulfill. Studer had a big lyric voice that carried well in a house so Sieglinde and Elsa were not out of her comfort zone. There is no way she could have the stamina or vocal heft to successfully sing isolde or Wotan's daughter.


Yes, I wasn't suggesting that Studer or the others I mentioned would have made good Isoldes. Is there, perhaps a difference between Wagnerian Soprano and singers of Wagner's soprano roles? (As Woodduck has implied.) I have a preference for the type of voice that would sing Elsa, Elisabeth and Sieglinde, so in some ways I am just expressing my desire for the thread I would have liked to have seen, rather than the thread as is!

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Yes, I wasn't suggesting that Studer or the others I mentioned would have made good Isoldes. Is there, perhaps a difference between Wagnerian Soprano and singers of Wagner's soprano roles? (As Woodduck has implied.) I have a preference for the type of voice that would sing Elsa, Elisabeth and Sieglinde, so in some ways I am just expressing my desire for the thread I would have liked to have seen, rather than the thread as is!
> 
> N.


I am no expert but those are I believe considered the light Wagner soprano roles. One of my very favorite Wagner operas is Lohengrin and Elsa is a great part. Many wonderful singers have sung in these roles, but unlike the big roles, you don't have to specialize in Wagner to successfully pull them off. I don't believe any singer specialized in them. Pilar Lorengar was one of the best in these roles but was better known I believe as a Mozart singer. Might I also suggest that if you are one of the handful of singers who can successfully sing these heavy roles you often end up specializing in them along with the heavy Strauss roles as the demand is so great. Nilsson could have only sung Wagner and Strauss, but insisted on singing Verdi because it kept her voice lighter, which she felt was good in the long run. She knew she was better at Wagner but made opera houses give her these roles. It must have worked. Gwyneth Jones was one of the best Verdi singers ever early in career but gave those roles up for the heavy roles. I think she should have kept the Verdi up as it might have done her voice some good. But I digress.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Nilsson could have only sung Wagner and Strauss, but insisted on singing Verdi because it kept her voice lighter, which she felt was good in the long run. She knew she was better at Wagner but made opera houses give her these roles. It must have worked.


"Wagner made me famous; Puccini made me rich." --Birgit Nilsson


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Tsaraslondon said:


>


Max Parr: Never mind.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eileen Farrell was such a plain-spoken, un-diva-like person that a comment about vibrators, accompanied by a hearty laugh, might not have been surprising.


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