# World champions, Next!!!!



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)




----------



## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Kudos to the Lionesses! A thoroughly deserved title. I seriously think they will be the top contenders next year as well. I think only E. White and Bronze are over 30 so they`re fairly young and have a great potential. Wiegman surely proved her merit but her gameplay showed some weakness against Spain and Germany to a lesser extent. I think she should work on alternative formations as well. I`d love to see White & Russo playing together (White as False 9 perhaps). Kirby is pure class but I`m not convinced of her performance against tougher midfields like Spain or Germany. I think Toone needs to get a bigger role as she was the key player against both Spain and Germany.

As I said Wiegman was not exactly perfect but still Southgate should learn a thing or two from this lady...


----------



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

I watched that game yesterday, and that was a great win. When Toone scored in the 2nd half, THAT was a sweet goal. The television coverage here in the States showed Prince William on his feet cheering for that one. 

but I thought it was the goal keeper for England that stole the show. She was fantastic. There was a chance for Germany in the first half from a set play that I still dont know how it stayed out. There was another breakaway, too, where she came way out, went one on one with the shooter and stuffed the shot cold.

(Sorry if I dont have all the football terms right, but I'm an American, what do you expect?)


----------



## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

English men for the past 26-years: "It's coming home, it's coming home."

English women in 2022: "Oh, for goodness sake, we'll get it ourselves!"


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Pity about the bellyaching about the "lack of diversity" in the England team. Imagine the uproar if someone complained that having four or five non-white players in the men's side is "over-representation". Don't these obsessives ever let up?


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

elgar's ghost said:


> Pity about the bellyaching about the "lack of diversity" in the England team. Imagine the uproar if someone complained that having four or five non-white players in the men's side is "over-representation". Don't these obsessives ever let up?


The falsely alleged ‘lack of diversity’ was a bit of woke nonsense pedalled by the usual suspects and that political-activist newspaper called the Graunian (spelling is an English joke, based on the Guardian's history of abysmal spelling errors).

The Office For National Statistics gives the latest figure (2019) of 16% of England's population as being Black, Asian, Minority Ethnic (BAME, a term that the government has now ceased using) and 84% for white.

This means that from the 20-strong player squad, 16.8 of the players should be white and 3.2 should be black or brown. The actual figures were 17 white, 3 non-white. Given that it's impossible to have decimal fractions of people, reasonable rounding up and rounding down means that the England squad was exactly representative in ethnic terms of the actual population of England.

When the referee blew for full time, of the 11 England players on the pitch, just over 27% of them were non white, meaning that Black, Asian, Minority Ethnic players were heavily overrepresented (heading for double) in the team.

Given the facts, it's hard to know what all the woke fuss was about. But these are the times we live in, where truth and facts don't matter - it's the narrative that reigns supreme....


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

A great moment. A great achievement. But a victory for an all white English team combined with black girls talking in interviews about how they were "discouraged" from joining girls and women's football initiatives leave a bad taste, I'm afraid. There is a relative shortage of black people celebrating the victory, too. This threatens increasing divisions in British society and needs to be turned around quickly.


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Must every observation about diversity ( or an alleged lack of) be laced with political snark?

Given that the OP was just a title and a picture, I'm not even sure what the topic is, but it certainly isn't about "woke".


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ No snark intended. And no politics, either. I have no desire to be PC or, as you might put it (?), woke. I am just worried about the potential for a division in society getting wider. Oh, and I also hate racism - I _really _hate it - having suffered from it enough even if far less than many I know. It's real and it's obscene.


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ No snark intended. And no politics, either. I have no desire to be PC or, as you might put it (?), woke. I am just worried about the potential for a division in society getting wider. Oh, and I also hate racism - I _really _hate it - having suffered from it enough even if far less than many I know. It's real and it's obscene.


I was referring to other posts.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Forster said:


> I was referring to other posts.


OK, sorry. Have a pint on me (we are in a pub, no?).


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Forster said:


> Must every observation about diversity ( or an alleged lack of) be laced with political snark?
> 
> Given that the OP was just a title and a picture, I'm not even sure what the topic is, but it certainly isn't about "woke".


elgar's ghost's comment in post #5 was highly germane and certainly not 'snark' nor was mine.

It's rather impolite of you to describe the two posts that way, which is a bit rich coming from you, given that you complain about the lack of politeness on the internet and seem to like to tell people how they should write on here. Are you an ex-copper, or some other occupation that likes telling people what to do and how to do it?

Your passive aggressive behaviour is not welcome.

You know, if you don't like a thread, you could always stay away from it - there are lots of other interesting threads on here that would meet your double standards.......


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

HenryPenfold said:


> The falsely alleged ‘lack of diversity’ was a bit of woke nonsense pedalled by the usual suspects and that political-activist newspaper called the Graunian (spelling is an English joke, based on the Guardian's history of abysmal spelling errors).
> 
> The Office For National Statistics gives the latest figure (2019) of 16% of England's population as being Black, Asian, Minority Ethnic (BAME, a term that the government has now ceased using) and 84% for white.
> 
> ...


It's obviously you I should have been disagreeing with! Believe me the lack of ethnic diversity in the team (and in recent English women's football) is an issue and is not woke nonsense. It is hard for white people in England to see or understand the pervasiveness of racism in the country. I'm sure you would be shocked if you had to live in a black or brown skin for a day. Also, it wasn't just one newspaper that picked up on the story - it was briefly covered by both BBC and Channel 4 news and was also covered in the Independent. Winning the competition was a glorious moment for English football and for women's football in the country. But there are a great many people who felt excluded from the feel good and that is both sad and dangerous for the country. There do appear to have been quite a number of cases where non-white women had been discouraged from participating in the work that went into creating such a great team. You can't just put that down to a woke conspiracy.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> It's obviously you I should have been disagreeing with! Believe me the lack of ethnic diversity in the team (and in recent English women's football) is an issue and is not woke nonsense. It is hard for white people in England to see or understand the pervasiveness of racism in the country. I'm sure you would be shocked if you had to live in a black or brown skin for a day. Also, it wasn't just one newspaper that picked up on the story - it was briefly covered by both BBC and Channel 4 news and was also covered in the Independent. Winning the competition was a glorious moment for English football and for women's football in the country. But there are a great many people who felt excluded from the feel good and that is both sad and dangerous for the country. There do appear to have been quite a number of cases where non-white women had been discouraged from participating in the work that went into creating such a great team. You can't just put that down to a woke conspiracy.


I think that you're missing the point here. England's population is represented ethnically in the women's football team. That is a fact. The pervasiveness etc that you refer to is a straw man - it's easier to maintain an argument about that than it is to face the fact that the England women's squad mirrors the English population - 84% white, 16% for the other ethnic categories.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Next episode - someone politely queries the lack of white sprinters in the GB athletics squad and watches as he's burnt in effigy. Not that I would, because sport at its highest level should be a meritocracy above all else. The next England women's team may have five non-white starters. The one after that maybe two. And then five again. And so on. That doesn't sound like a problem to me, and judging by the non-white representation within the leading football clubs it isn't one there either. I wouldn't deny that racism isn't completely a thing of the past within sport in general but where is the hard evidence that women's football suffers from it?


----------



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm sure you would be shocked if you had to live in a black or brown skin for a day.... But there are a great many people who felt excluded from the feel good and that is both sad and dangerous for the country. There do appear to have been quite a number of cases where non-white women had been discouraged from participating in the work that went into creating such a great team. You can't just put that down to a woke conspiracy.


I have been the only white man living on my block before. Growing up in Houston I used to get my head kicked in just about every day over what color my skin was.

That's not having my "feelings hurt" ...that is having my Vietnamese friends teach me how to use nun-chuks because the spanish kids were holding me up at knife point all the damn time

Trust me, there's a difference between having your feeling hurt and taking a kick to your kidneys after you hit the ground. White people do not hold a monopoly on racism, and it is a real shame that we had this stuff injected into talk about a great moment in sports for England and also a great moment for the women's game in general.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

HenryPenfold said:


> I think that you're missing the point here. England's population is represented ethnically in the women's football team. That is a fact. The pervasiveness etc that you refer to is a straw man - it's easier to maintain an argument about that than it is to face the fact that the England women's squad mirrors the English population - 84% white, 16% for the other ethnic categories.


I get the statistics but am persuaded by the several girls who reported being discouraged. We have no reason to assume that the ethnic profile of a sports team should reflect those numbers (or indeed the opposite). But knowing what I know about the lesser chances that are granted to non-whites (I'm not talking about active aggression - which also happens) in modern England, and how discouraging that can be to deal with, I feel fairly sure that there has been some effective exclusion. Certainly a lot of non-whites feel that there has been.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Nate Miller said:


> I have been the only white man living on my block before. Growing up in Houston I used to get my head kicked in just about every day over what color my skin was.
> 
> That's not having my "feelings hurt" ...that is having my Vietnamese friends teach me how to use nun-chuks because the spanish kids were holding me up at knife point all the damn time
> 
> Trust me, there's a difference between having your feeling hurt and taking a kick to your kidneys after you hit the ground. White people do not hold a monopoly on racism, and it is a real shame that we had this stuff injected into talk about a great moment in sports for England and also a great moment for the women's game in general.


I'm sorry to hear of your grim experiences. I can't imagine them. British race relations are, I think, very different to American race relations and have a very different history. We do also have race violence (and yes it can go both ways depending on where you are). But here I have only been talking about a much softer and less overt form of racism. There are doubtless hurts on both sides but to me it is important that we, as societies, find ways past those and to a more harmonious future.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I get the statistics but am persuaded by the several girls who reported being discouraged. We have no reason to assume that the ethnic profile of a sports team should reflect those numbers (or indeed the opposite). But knowing what I know about the lesser chances that are granted to non-whites (I'm not talking about active aggression - which also happens) in modern England, and how discouraging that can be to deal with, I feel fairly sure that there has been some effective exclusion. Certainly a lot of non-whites feel that there has been.


I wouldn't discount the lived-experience claims of the several girls you refer to, but we need a little more than that to draw the conclusions we seem to be drawing.

Regarding the granting of chances according to skin-colour, speaking as a Londoner, the issues are more about knife-crime, gangs and drug culture for young people of colour, and for white youths, it's that they are being ignored in the education system - the most important 'social-mobility' enabler of all.

A fellow alumnus of mine, Tony Sewell, the Jamaican chap from Brixton and Chair of the Commission On Race And Ethnic Disparities, told the government that the UK was the best place on the planet for people of colour to live in! I mention that because you seem to have quite a negative view about the UK!


----------



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

not to change the subject, but I was wondering about something completely else...

I noticed that after the match, they played Neil Diamond's "Sweet Caroline" ....why did they do that? is that a traditional "championship" song like Queen's "We are the Champions" here in the states, or was there another reason that wouldn't be apparent to a casual observer from the other side of the Atlantic?


----------



## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

I thought it was a great game. When Germany scored the late equalizer, I feared the worst. But I was happy to see England's triumph. I have nothing against Germany, but oh, England....


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Nate Miller said:


> not to change the subject, but I was wondering about something completely else...
> 
> I noticed that after the match, they played Neil Diamond's "Sweet Caroline" ....why did they do that? is that a traditional "championship" song like Queen's "We are the Champions" here in the states, or was there another reason that wouldn't be apparent to a casual observer from the other side of the Atlantic?


_Sweet Caroline_ has, along with _Delilah_, gained the dubious distinction of being one of the UK's more popular party songs mainly thanks to drunken karaokes and wedding receptions. I can't stand the song personally, but if it chimes with the event somehow and everyone else likes it, then - as Dave Mason once sang -"let it go, let it flow like a river..."


----------



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

ah! drunken karaoke explains it 😄 

I noticed that the crowd had all their part pretty together, like it was practiced

but I used to work with a fellow from Cardiff and I remember him telling me about how the supporters of different clubs have songs they sing at the matches, so I was wondering if that was one of those 

I imagine it is safe to assume they sell beer at Wembley stadium then


----------



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

I see that our US women's team is going to play your Lionesses on Oct 7 at Wembley. I think they just announced the match yesterday

now THAT is big for the women's game. Here in the states, our women's team is the team we follow. Americans love winners, and so that's why we dont really pay attention to our men's team. I bet that game gets big TV audiences here in the states and they might even pack Wembley stadium again. Although I think its just a friendly and not the Euro Cup final.

but I think its good to see women's football gaining traction with sports fans. That game this weekend was NOT the women's football I was expecting. I've seen NHL hockey games that were less "chipy" than that game with Germany.


----------



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Kivimees said:


> I thought it was a great game. When Germany scored the late equalizer, I feared the worst. But I was happy to see England's triumph. I have nothing against Germany, but oh, England....



I absolutely LOVE when a team shows us all why they are champions. that late equalizer could have deflated lots of teams. In overtime, when the English girls were tired and hurting and you could see it in their body language...you could see them reach down, all of them, and control the second part of that overtime. When it mattered, and when it counted most, they weren't willing to settle for penalty shots.

Women's sports dont usually move me, but they truly were lionesses 

and it was beautiful


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Nate Miller said:


> ah! drunken karaoke explains it 😄
> 
> I noticed that the crowd had all their part pretty together, like it was practiced
> 
> ...


Most football songs in the UK used to be famous songs which were then given a crude and often antagonistic lyrical makeover, especially when playing a local rival. In today's more family-oriented sporting climate and the cleaning-up of football in general over the last decade or so I don't know to what extent these are still tolerated.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

HenryPenfold said:


> I wouldn't discount the lived-experience claims of the several girls you refer to, but we need a little more than that to draw the conclusions we seem to be drawing.
> 
> Regarding the granting of chances according to skin-colour, speaking as a Londoner, the issues are more about knife-crime, gangs and drug culture for young people of colour, and for white youths, it's that they are being ignored in the education system - the most important 'social-mobility' enabler of all.
> 
> A fellow alumnus of mine, Tony Sewell, the Jamaican chap from Brixton and Chair of the Commission On Race And Ethnic Disparities, told the government that the UK was the best place on the planet for people of colour to live in! I mention that because you s - eem to have quite a negative view about the UK!


OK. But it isn't just about the lived-experience that I am also talking about. When in most sports we see England represented by non-white athletes to a greater degree than the statistical point you were making earlier would suggest it seems a little strange that our best lady footballers are all white. It does suggest that underneath - at the level of training opportunities and so on - there has been some discrimination. As for the the view that we Brits do better than most other countries (a view that is true, I think), I feel we do have to be careful of complacency. Less overt forms of racism - and probably racism in the police and some other institutions - are still very much alive in UK and it would be good to recognise this and thereby build on our progress over the last 30 years. 

It's a subject that engages me quite a lot but let's get back to celebrating what was still a great English achievement!


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Nate Miller said:


> I see that our US women's team is going to play your Lionesses on Oct 7 at Wembley. I think they just announced the match yesterday
> 
> now THAT is big for the women's game. Here in the states, our women's team is the team we follow. Americans love winners, and so that's why we dont really pay attention to our men's team. I bet that game gets big TV audiences here in the states and they might even pack Wembley stadium again. Although I think its just a friendly and not the Euro Cup final.
> 
> but I think its good to see women's football gaining traction with sports fans. That game this weekend was NOT the women's football I was expecting. I've seen NHL hockey games that were less "chipy" than that game with Germany.


Well, it has to be said, the US women's team is head and shoulders above every other women's football team in the world, and has been for a while. I think the Lionesses will give them a run for their money.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> OK. But it isn't just about the lived-experience that I am also talking about. When in most sports we see England represented by non-white athletes to a greater degree than the statistical point you were making earlier would suggest it seems a little strange that our best lady footballers are all white. It does suggest that underneath - at the level of training opportunities and so on - there has been some discrimination. As for the the view that we Brits do better than most other countries (a view that is true, I think), I feel we do have to be careful of complacency. Less overt forms of racism - and probably racism in the police and some other institutions - are still very much alive in UK and it would be good to recognise this and thereby build on our progress over the last 30 years.
> 
> It's a subject that engages me quite a lot but let's get back to celebrating what was still a great English achievement!


If you know the game, you'll know that, that first eleven is just as good as it gets. I played to professional level and I would have struggled against some of them! But if you insist that black women players are superior, and should have eased the white players out, but for racist discrimination, I guess no-one's gonna convince you away from your race theories.


----------



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

HenryPenfold said:


> Well, it has to be said, the US women's team is head and shoulders above every other women's football team in the world, and has been for a while. I think the Lionesses will give them a run for their money.




well, if we were in a different venue for the match it might be different, but at Wembley in front of that crowd, I don't know if I really like our chances

if I were a betting man, which I'm not, but I might put a fiver on the lionesses in this one


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Nate Miller said:


> well, if we were in a different venue for the match it might be different, but at Wembley in front of that crowd, I don't know if I really like our chances
> 
> if I were a betting man, which I'm not, but I might put a fiver on the lionesses in this one


To be honest, I actually think that as of last week, the Lionesses are the best women's team in the world. But the US game will be a tough test.


----------



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

I've never circled the calendar for a women's sport event before, but I think that just changed. I'm laying low for Oct 7 

its going to be a great match


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Nate Miller said:


> I've never circled the calendar for a women's sport event before, but I think that just changed. I'm laying low for Oct 7
> 
> its going to be a great match


Even as recently as 5 years ago the women's game was pretty flawed. But now, it's tip-top. Chloe Kelly's goal was a real footballer's goal - nullified the defender with forceful placement of the hips and then a real Alan Clarke/Paolo Rossi toe-poke. So professional. Of course, Ella Toone's goal was very skilful and better on the eye.....


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

HenryPenfold said:


> If you know the game, you'll know that, that first eleven is just as good as it gets. I played to professional level and I would have struggled against some of them! But if you insist that black women players are superior, and should have eased the white players out, but for racist discrimination, I guess no-one's gonna convince you away from your race theories.


Sorry, Henry, but that is not what I am saying. The discrimination - if it happened as many (me included pending evidence to the contrary) believe it has - must be at or below the level of the training facilities (clubs and arrangements for fostering talent) that feed the team (and therefore several years before players might hope to get selected for the national team). I don't think anyone is saying that selection to the national team is itself influenced by racism.

This is the last I will say on this subject in this thread (your last sentence which condemns me to the bin of the hopelessly woke warns me off!) as I fear our communication on this issue is becoming muddy and perhaps heated.

EDIT: Impressed that you were a pro footballer! But interested that you (and you presumably know) do not rate the national women's team members as highly as many pro men? I hadn't seen or realised that. What men's level do you think the national women's team members reach?


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> Sorry, Henry, but that is not what I am saying. The discrimination - if it happened as many (me included pending evidence to the contrary) believe it has - must be at or below the level of the training facilities (clubs and arrangements for fostering talent) that feed the team (and therefore several years before players might hope to get selected for the national team). I don't think anyone is saying that selection to the national team is itself influenced by racism.
> 
> This is the last I will say on this subject in this thread (your last sentence which condemns me to the bin of the hopelessly woke warns me off!) as I fear our communication on this issue is becoming muddy and perhaps heated.


Enthusiast, nothing heated, it's just that I have little patience with race theorists and I have nothing more to say to you on the matter. Perfectly happy to engage with you about music.....


----------



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

HenryPenfold said:


> Even as recently as 5 years ago the women's game was pretty flawed. But now, it's tip-top. Chloe Kelly's goal was a real footballer's goal - nullified the defender with forceful placement of the hips and then a real Alan Clarke/Paolo Rossi toe-poke. So professional. Of course, Ella Toone's goal was very skilful and better on the eye.....


Thanks for breaking down that goal. I never got to play the game. It just wasn't played in America in the 1970s.

What I saw was a scrum and a lucky touch, but now I can see how she made her own luck. Its just like hockey where you can use your hips to keep the defender off you when you go to the front of the net. 

its too bad I'm a geezer now, I think I would have really liked this sport


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

HenryPenfold said:


> Enthusiast, nothing heated, it's just that I have little patience with race theorists and I have nothing more to say to you on the matter. Perfectly happy to engage with you about music.....


OK. Fair enough. It seems a shame though as your responses seemed genuine and open and I don't feel I am theorising or am a race theorist although I would like to see us continue on our journey to becoming a single unified country. I am someone who lives with soft racism (because my wife and much of my social circle are not white) and am intrigued by it. But I will try to remember when next engaging with you not to discuss what are to me personal experiences.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Nate Miller said:


> Thanks for breaking down that goal. I never got to play the game. It just wasn't played in America in the 1970s.
> 
> What I saw was a scrum and a lucky touch, but now I can see how she made her own luck. Its just like hockey where you can use your hips to keep the defender off you when you go to the front of the net.
> 
> its too bad I'm a geezer now, I think I would have really liked this sport


I actually played in a youth team in Oregon in 1974 when I was 14 and had an extended spell in the US, so football (association football) was played in the US in the 1970s but maybe not where you lived (it's quite a big country, you know!)


----------



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

yep, I grew up in Houston Tx. When I was in high school, the YMCA started a league, but we were all too old. Alot of my friend's younger brothers got to play, but I missed out by a couple years.


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

elgar's ghost said:


> Pity about the bellyaching about the "lack of diversity" in the England team. Imagine the uproar if someone complained that having four or five non-white players in the men's side is "over-representation". Don't these obsessives ever let up?


Try these two articles and see if "bellyaching" about diversity is actually merited.









Why football needs a gender revolution


While things are improving for the women’s game in terms of equality, a series of depressing instances of blatant misogyny show there is a long way to go.




theconversation.com










Women in Football - Women in Football launch new phase of growth as two thirds of members working in the industry report gender discrimination







www.womeninfootball.co.uk





The Telegraph reported on the survey too (maybe behind a paywall).









Two thirds of women in football suffer discrimination but much goes unreported, survey finds


The survey was the largest ever conducted by Women in Football




www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Forster said:


> Try these two articles and see if "bellyaching" about diversity is actually merited.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure, I'll read them, but, as I recall, this wasn't about sexual discrimination when you first pulled me up.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

it's in written articles, so it must be true 🤣

More bellyaching from low-achievers supported by people with low self-esteem.

Luckily, there are enough non-snowflakes out there for all this harping not to matter. 😁


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

HenryPenfold said:


> it's in written articles, so it must be true 🤣
> 
> More bellyaching from low-achievers supported by people with low self-esteem.
> 
> Luckily, there are enough non-snowflakes out there for all this harping not to matter. 😁


You previously claimed that you, "_wouldn't discount the lived-experience claims of the several girls you refer to_" (in response to a post by Enthusiast)

I guess you've changed your mind, not only discounting, but dismissively so. You also said "_I have little patience with race theorists and I have nothing more to say to you_ [Enthusiast] _on the matter_". I guess I'm just blessed to be one of the members here you _are _happy to come back and say more to on the matter.

Your somewhat simplistic argument is based on the single statistic of the proportion of non-whites in the UK population. I would suggest that is a disingenuous approach to take, offering a convenient get-out from considering anyone else's testimony about discrimination, or other statistics that might be germane to the issue.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Forster said:


> You previously claimed that you, "_wouldn't discount the lived-experience claims of the several girls you refer to_" (in response to a post by Enthusiast)
> 
> I guess you've changed your mind, not only discounting, but dismissively so.


You're chewing more than you've bitten off

I never discount 'lived-experience' because one cannot. It is the honestly held, personal belief that the individual genuinely holds, and must be respected as such. The thing is, subjective personal beliefs can also be wrong, and that must also be understood.



> You also said "_I have little patience with race theorists and I have nothing more to say to you_ [Enthusiast] _on the matter_". I guess I'm just blessed to be one of the members here you _are _happy to come back and say more to on the matter.


No, you're not special to me, it's just that enthusiast and I probably said to one another all that needed to be said and I gave notice of moving on



> Your somewhat simplistic argument is based on the single statistic of the proportion of non-whites in the UK population. I would suggest that is a disingenuous approach to take, offering a convenient get-out from considering anyone else's testimony about discrimination, or other statistics that might be germane to the issue.


I was not being insincere or dishonest, so you might want to retract your allegation about my post.

I'm sorry that the facts and reality of the matter do not reflect how you like to see the world, but there is nothing that I can do to help you with this - the matter is simple, the English Women's football team almost exactly mirrors the ethnicity/race compositionof the English population. An uplifting and positive state of affairs for those of us that care about such things

[/QUOTE]


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

HenryPenfold said:


> I never discount 'lived-experience' because one cannot.


You said, "_More bellyaching from low-achievers supported by people with low self-esteem. "_

That sounds, as I said, dismissive. IMO, it's reasonable to interpret this as "discounting."



HenryPenfold said:


> The thing is, subjective personal beliefs can also be wrong, and that must also be understood.


Of course, and I fully understand that. But they should not be dismissed out of hand either.



HenryPenfold said:


> I was not being insincere or dishonest, so you might want to retract your allegation about my post.


My post stands...as do all yours from this thread, some of which I might have cause to ask you to retract.



HenryPenfold said:


> the English Women's football team almost exactly mirrors the ethnicity/race composition of the English population.


So what? That fact does not negate the possibility that there are many aspiring to play football at the highest level (probably at all levels) who have suffered discrimination on account of their colour.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Forster said:


> You said, "_More bellyaching from low-achievers supported by people with low self-esteem. "_
> 
> That sounds, as I said, dismissive. IMO, it's reasonable to interpret this as "discounting."
> 
> ...


I'd love to meet you Forster.

Btw, I do hope your monicker isn't in honour of E.M. Forster. Did you not know that most woke people are cancelling him for his racism and antisemitism, not celebrating him?


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

HenryPenfold said:


> Did you not know that most woke people are cancelling him for his racism and antisemitism, not celebrating him?


Really? I'm intrigued. Do share a source.

[Add]

On second thoughts, better not as this would potentially divert the thread.


----------

