# Is Locrian a minor mode or a diminished mode?



## caters

I have heard 2 different schools of thought when describing the Locrian mode. The first one that I heard several years ago, when I first heard about modes is that it is a minor mode, despite its diminished 5th because it's tonic is the seventh degree of the major scale and the seventh tends to have a diminished quality, especially in minor.

Now I hear more people saying that it is not a minor mode, it is its own mode, a diminished mode.

Here is the first school of thought that I heard:


*Mode**Quality*IonianMajorLydianMajorMixolydianMajorAeolianMinorDorianMinorPhrygianMinorLocrianMinor

This one kind of makes sense because Locrian is a modified minor scale.

And here is the more current school of thought that I keep hearing:


*Mode**Quality*IonianMajorLydianMajorMixolydianMajorAeolianMinorDorianMinorPhrygianMinorLocrianDiminished

This one implies that the modes are incomplete, at least to my eyes it does. To my eyes, this means there should be 3 diminished modes and 3 augmented modes just like how there are 3 major modes and in this school of thought, 3 minor modes. Also, the only connection between Locrian and the Diminished Scale is that the tonic triad is diminished in both cases. The Diminished Scale goes further than Locrian because the only triad you can make out of the Diminished scale, with each note being 2 scale degrees away is a diminished triad.

To my eyes, basing the classification of the modes on the tonic alone as in the school of thought that says that Locrian is a diminished mode is not right. I would say that Locrian is a minor mode because it is based off of the minor scale. Also, Locrian, to me at least suggests that the so called tonic is actually the dominant and thus it is too unstable for me to even consider using as a key.

Besides, saying that you have a diminished mode can be confusing. It could refer to one of 2 modes of the Diminished Scale(half whole or whole half) or it could refer to a mode where the tonic is diminished.

But what do you think? Do you think Locrian is a diminished mode and not a minor mode? If so, why?


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## millionrainbows

caters said:


> I have heard 2 different schools of thought when describing the Locrian mode. The first one that I heard several years ago, when I first heard about modes is that it is a minor mode, despite its diminished 5th because it's tonic is the seventh degree of the major scale and the seventh tends to have a diminished quality, especially in minor.


It doesn't make sense to me to base a scale's harmonic quality off of what scale degree of a parent scale it is derived from. Better to ask, "what chord does this scale work with?" and the answer is, a half-diminished chord.

I'd argue against using it against a minor chord, because it has no stable fifth. This automatically makes a good argument towards 'diminished' because of the tritone, as well as the minor third.



> Now I hear more people saying that it is not a minor mode, it is its own mode, a diminished mode. This one implies that the modes are incomplete, at least to my eyes it does. To my eyes, this means there should be 3 diminished modes and 3 augmented modes just like how there are 3 major modes and in this school of thought, 3 minor modes.


I think that's flawed, because the augmented has three chord forms: C-E-G#, E-G#-C, G#-C-E, which repeat 4 times (at four root positions) (C,C#,D,Eb) before repeating. 3 forms x 4 root positions = 12.

The diminished seventh chord has four forms: C-Eb-Gb-Bbb, Eb-Gb-Bbb-C, Gb-Bbb-C-Eb-, and Bbb-C-Eb-Gb, which repeat 3 times at root stations, 4x3=12.



> Also, the only connection between Locrian and the Diminished Scale is that the tonic triad is diminished in both cases. The Diminished Scale goes further than Locrian because the only triad you can make out of the Diminished scale, with each note being 2 scale degrees away is a diminished triad.


You should stop comparing scales, and start listening to how the scale, in this case locrian, sounds against a half-diminished chord.

It's clearer to say the diminished triads are minor thirds apart, not letter names, because diminished chords involve enharmonic spellings. Think in intervals, not letter names.



> To my eyes, basing the classification of the modes on the tonic alone as in the school of thought that says that Locrian is a diminished mode is not right. I would say that Locrian is a minor mode because it is based off of the minor scale. Also, Locrian, to me at least suggests that the so called tonic is actually the dominant and thus it is too unstable for me to even consider using as a key.


This is unclear to me. I suggest you stop thinking of the locrian scale in terms of functions and comparisons to other scales, and start listening to how it sounds against a half-diminished chord (B-D-F-A)



> Besides, saying that you have a diminished mode can be confusing. It could refer to one of 2 modes of the Diminished Scale(half whole or whole half) or it could refer to a mode where the tonic is diminished.


Your mistake is in associating the Locrian scale with a diminished, or diminished seventh chord sound. It's half-diminished.



> But what do you think? Do you think Locrian is a diminished mode and not a minor mode? If so, why?


In jazz, it's the scale used over half-diminished chords.


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## philoctetes

Locrian is the mode derived from starting the C major scale on B.


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## drmdjones

I like calling locrian a diminished mode since, as has been stated, the chord created by stacking thirds on the root is a half-dim seventh. Maybe it's better to call it a half-dim mode?? Half-kidding here, but maybe?


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## BabyGiraffe

Locrian is a distorted mode. Let's check 7 equal.Each step is 171.429 cents. Fifths are 685.714 cents. That's the most even 7 note scale. When we deform it to anything close to diatonic scale, we will get 1 of the modes distorted with diminished fifth instead of a regular "fifth".

Reducing scales and modes to just major and minor is a very dumb idea. There are scales that are neither major or minor and both major/minor.

We can probably reduce most common scales to being constructed by tetrachords and pentachords, but what's the point?

(Something funny - if we swap large and small steps in the diatonic pattern, we get a scale where major becomes minor, minor->major and diminshed triad-> augmented; 16 equal is the least dissonant system for this scale. This type of tuning is even used in Africa by Chopi people. It's basically geometrical duality.)


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## Schoenberg

It's obviously not a minor mode due to the fact that there is a diminished fifth, but I would hesitate to call it a diminished mode.


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## KenOC

Locrian, that is the weird mode. Neither too much weirdness shall it have, nor yet too little, but its weirdness shall be the appointed portion of the weird musicians that employ it. Locrian shall not be heard here lest the offender be disemboweled, and following close on that impaled, and finally crushed by a massy boulder dropped from great height. The grand virginal usually used for that purpose was found deflowered by some naughty priest and is being restored to pristinity.


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## Woodduck

KenOC said:


> Locrian, that is the weird mode. Neither too much weirdness shall it have, nor yet too little, but its weirdness shall be the appointed portion of the weird musicians that employ it. Locrian shall not be heard here lest the offender be disemboweled, and following close on that impaled, and finally crushed by a massy boulder dropped from great height. The grand virginal usually used for that purpose was found to have been deflowered by some naughty priest and is being restored to pristinity.


I've always felt that way but just couldn't find the words for it.


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## KenOC

Woodduck said:


> I've always felt that way but just couldn't find the words for it.


Much scrubbing of befouled strings and plectra is required of the Mixolydians, though few bewail their task, they being as they are.


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## Larkenfield

It's just a C scale, in an example key, that starts on the note of B, the seventh degree or mode of that scale. It has the feel of minor but it's not a full diminished but a half-diminished scale. Mahler starts his Seventh Symphony on a half-diminished chord. It can create a sense of doubt or emotional uncertainty.






More on the Locrian:


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## Guest

Thanks for that, Larkenfield, a very clear explanation; much easier to understand than MillioRainbow's prolix excursions.
That said, I _do_ appreciate the effort MR makes; I give him a "thumb's up" for that.


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## millionrainbows

Here's the short answer: use this scale over a half-diminished chord. Don't forget to listen to it.


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## millionrainbows

Here is something to consider, also: if a half-diminished chord is voiced or heard in a certain way, it can also be considered to be a minor sixth chord.
B-D-F-A half-diminished becomes D minor 6 (D 13): D (root) F (m3rd) A (fifth) B (minor sixth or thirteenth), so the B Locrian will also work over a Dm6 or D13 chord.


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## eugeneonagain

millionrainbows said:


> Here's the short answer: use this scale over a half-diminished chord. Don't forget to listen to it.


The chords don't have to be diminished at all. It can easily be used over e.g. E minor, E major. Go to a piano and try playing mediaeval Phrygian mode (i.e. diatonic) against Locrian. They blend easily.


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## EdwardBast

millionrainbows said:


> Here is something to consider, also: if a half-diminished chord is voiced or heard in a certain way, it can also be considered to be a minor sixth chord.
> B-D-F-A half-diminished becomes D minor 6 (D 13): D (root) F (m3rd) A (fifth) B (minor sixth or thirteenth), so the B Locrian will also work over a Dm6 or D13 chord.


So the players using this nomenclature don't fully accept inversional equivalence then?  Or is this just pragmatic - the only way the system can get the right note into the bass?


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## Torkelburger

millionrainbows said:


> Here is something to consider, also: if a half-diminished chord is voiced or heard in a certain way, it can also be considered to be a minor sixth chord.
> B-D-F-A half-diminished becomes D minor 6 (D 13): D (root) F (m3rd) A (fifth) B (minor sixth or thirteenth), so the B Locrian will also work over a Dm6 or D13 chord.


Nitpick: In jazz, a D13 chord is D - F# - A - C - B. Technically speaking, you don't have higher tensions (9,11,13) unless the 7th is present. So if the 7th is not present, then the 13th is just a 6th.


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## millionrainbows

Torkelburger said:


> Nitpick: In jazz, a D13 chord is D - F# - A - C - B. Technically speaking, you don't have higher tensions (9,11,13) unless the 7th is present. So if the 7th is not present, then the 13th is just a 6th.


OK, I'll concede that. It still sounds good over a D6, tho. I appreciate the nitpick.


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## MartinAlexander

The first table classifies the scales based on their third.
Consequently Locrian is classified as minor, since it has a minor third.

The second table classifies the scales based on the scale degree they're derived from. 
Consequently Locrian is a diminished mode, since it's based on the diminished scale degree (vii in major & ii in minor).

So the tables don't contradict each other, since they use two different features of the scale for their classification.


Whoever is teaching you - run away - your musical thinking is very unnatural and it's clear, this is because you're given over-complicated and unrelated informations by wannabes, who just want to feel "superior" by showing that no one grasps their "complicated concepts", when in fact, it's them, who don't have a grasp and accordingly need to make their superficial semiliteracy as complicated and sophisticated sounding as possible, to hide the fact, they have absolutely no idea, what they're talking about or even worse, have "negative knowledge" - studying doing it wrong for 30 years and calling it experience.

If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it yourself.

Hope this helps.

Martin


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## millionrainbows

Torkelburger said:


> Nitpick: In jazz, a D13 chord is D - F# - A - C - B. Technically speaking, you don't have higher tensions (9,11,13) unless the 7th is present. So if the 7th is not present, then the 13th is just a 6th.


If the 7th is not present, it might be a guitar player using an incomplete voicing. And still, a B Locrian will still work over a D13, and, as Eugene said, over minor chords. See Miles Davis: Nardis


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## millionrainbows

kiyatsiya said:


> I first heard about modes is that it is a minor mode, despite its diminished 5th because it's tonic is the seventh degree of the major scale and the seventh tends to have a diminished quality, especially in minor.


I've always disagreed with the identification of vii˚ as a "root." Both Walter Piston and Schoenberg tell us that (key of C) B-D-F is best considered as an incomplete G7 (no root) and is resolved like one.


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## BabyGiraffe

millionrainbows said:


> I've always disagreed with the identification of vii˚ as a "root." Both Walter Piston and Schoenberg tell us that (key of C) B-D-F is best considered as an incomplete G7 (no root) and is resolved like one.


There is no such thing as chord without a root.
"Resolving" a chord has to do with voice leading and our brain searching for harmonic series and stable/rooted octave harmonies.
If you experiment with just intonation scales derived directly from the overtone series (no stacking of intervals or any theoretical math, just choose a long enough harmonics segment), you will notice that there are TONS of microtonal chord changes that are not stable and resolve only to a pure major triad (I wonder how stable minor triad sounded to people that were not exposed to Western type music in the past... ).
It is funny how a whole style was developed with just a few harmonic "gestures" like V7-I etc as rules. But this is hardly the only thing we can do musically and basing some kind of "universal" logic on such rules doesn't work.


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## millionrainbows

BabyGiraffe said:


> There is no such thing as chord without a root.


It's an assumed root. B-D-F is a triad. I'm not sure why you hear vii˚ as a root on B. I never could convince myself.



> "Resolving" a chord has to do with voice leading and our brain searching for harmonic series and stable/rooted octave harmonies.


I know, that's why vii˚ with its unstable fifth doesn't sound like it's rooted on B, and apparently Piston and Schoenberg agree.



> If you experiment with just intonation scales derived directly from the overtone series *(no stacking of intervals or any theoretical math, just choose a long enough harmonics segment)*, you will notice that there are TONS of microtonal chord changes that are not stable and resolve only to a pure major triad (I wonder how stable minor triad sounded to people that were not exposed to Western type music in the past... ).


That's a point we have always disagreed on; even "just" intonation has to have a starting point, and whatever intervals are derived from that are relational.



> It is funny how a whole style was developed with just a few harmonic "gestures" like V7-I etc as rules. But this is hardly the only thing we can do musically and basing some kind of "universal" logic on such rules doesn't work.


The one basic rule that Western music is based on is the fifth, and we are close enough.


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## BabyGiraffe

Well, something sounding "rooted" (being able to deduce overtone series) and having an actual root are different things. Minor chords are also not rooted and sound unresolved and sad, but we have accepted them as valid harmony. 
It is funny that acoustically 3:4:5 chord (second inversion major chord) is more consonant than 4:5:6 (standard major chord), but it's not rooted, so is unstable.
Various temperaments make certain chords more dissonant; in just intonation (we know that string and woodwind players play closer to this than to 12 equal, brass players - most of the time- sound closer to pythagorean for some reason - maybe the construction of instruments) diminished chord may be unstable, but is hardly dissonant.
In 12 equal you will hear hardly hear any diminished chords in modern music outside of occasional movie horror shock scenes.


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## millionrainbows

BabyGiraffe said:


> Well, something sounding "rooted" (being able to deduce overtone series) and having an actual root are different things. Minor chords are also not rooted and sound unresolved and sad, but we have accepted them as valid harmony.


You often say things that sound contradictory to me.
If a triad has a fifth, it sounds rooted. This includes minor chords.



> It is funny that acoustically 3:4:5 chord (second inversion major chord) is more consonant than 4:5:6 (standard major chord), but it's not rooted, so is unstable.


The root is not in the bass, but it's stable.

We hear fourths as "root on top." Example: G-C-E (3:4:5 - second inversion major chord) we hear as a C chord because of the fourth G-C.

We hear fifths as "root on bottom." C-E-G (4:5:6 - standard major chord) we hear as a C chord because of the fifth C-G.

It's weird to me that you can talk about "being able to deduce overtone series" without apparently knowing this.


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## mikeh375

I thought this also about minor roots in BG's post MR. I assume BG is referring to the structure of the overtone series that constitutes a major triad in its initial overtones. Regardless of the theory though , minor chords _are_ rooted to all intents and purposes and do not sound unresolved to composers.


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## millionrainbows

mikeh375 said:


> I thought this also about minor roots in BG's post MR. I assume BG is referring to the structure of the overtone series that constitutes a major triad in its initial overtones. Regardless of the theory though , minor chords _are_ rooted to all intents and purposes and do not sound unresolved to composers.


Baby Giraffe gets too stuck on the overtone series, without realizing that harmonic hierarchies can be created in other ways, not based on natural overtones, but nonetheless "effective" harmonically. That means our ears can be convinced.


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## Bwv 1080

caters said:


> I have heard 2 different schools of thought when describing the Locrian mode. The first one that I heard several years ago, when I first heard about modes is that it is a minor mode, despite its diminished 5th because it's tonic is the seventh degree of the major scale and the seventh tends to have a diminished quality, especially in minor.
> 
> Now I hear more people saying that it is not a minor mode, it is its own mode, a diminished mode.


What difference does that make? When it is spoken of as minor it refers to the third and is compared to the other minor modes, when described as diminished, or more properly half-diminished, it refers to the harmonic function. These are just words, dont put more into them than is warranted



caters said:


> This one implies that the modes are incomplete, at least to my eyes it does. To my eyes, this means there should be 3 diminished modes and 3 augmented modes just like how there are 3 major modes and in this school of thought, 3 minor modes. Also, the only connection between Locrian and the Diminished Scale is that the tonic triad is diminished in both cases. The Diminished Scale goes further than Locrian because the only triad you can make out of the Diminished scale, with each note being 2 scale degrees away is a diminished triad.


why should this be so? there is one tritone in a diatonic scale, so only two modes will have a tritone above the root, one with a sharp 4 and the other with a flat 5. You can make major triads and dominant 7th chords (and flat or sharp 9, sharp 11 or flat 5 and add the 13 - so any altered dominant chord that does not have an augmented triad) from a diminished scale (half-whole version) and it is often used over them in Jazz



> To my eyes, basing the classification of the modes on the tonic alone as in the school of thought that says that Locrian is a diminished mode is not right. I would say that Locrian is a minor mode because it is based off of the minor scale. Also, Locrian, to me at least suggests that the so called tonic is actually the dominant and thus it is too unstable for me to even consider using as a key.
> 
> Besides, saying that you have a diminished mode can be confusing. It could refer to one of 2 modes of the Diminished Scale(half whole or whole half) or it could refer to a mode where the tonic is diminished.
> 
> But what do you think? Do you think Locrian is a diminished mode and not a minor mode? If so, why?


Locrian is not based on one of the minor scales, just compared to it. It is a mode of the diatonic scale that was hardly, if ever used (can anyone identify a premodern piece written in locrian?) Its seventh chord is half-diminished which is how most musicians think about it in a tonal context


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## Bwv 1080

BabyGiraffe said:


> In 12 equal you will hear hardly hear any diminished chords in modern music outside of occasional movie horror shock scenes.


???? Any tonal music more sophisticated than 3 chord pop or country is full of diminished chords of all varieties


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## millionrainbows

BabyGiraffe said:


> In 12 equal you will hear hardly hear any diminished chords in modern music outside of occasional movie horror shock scenes.





Bwv 1080 said:


> ???? Any tonal music more sophisticated than 3 chord pop or country is full of diminished chords of all varieties


That's typical of BabyGiraffe's know-it-all responses.


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## BabyGiraffe

Bwv 1080 said:


> ???? Any tonal music more sophisticated than 3 chord pop or country is full of diminished chords of all varieties


Obviously, I was not talking about art music... Anyone is free to use there textures ranging from simplest dyadic harmony up to dissonant microtonal clusters (Ligeti )
(And pop music is usually at least 4 chord, right? :tiphat


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## millionrainbows

Uhh, yeah, sure, anything you say, BG.


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## Mike Strand

On the question of the criminality or stupidity or insensitivity or merely lack of judgment of composing in Locrian mode: It's been done, of course. Debussy in "Jeux" has several passages in Locrian. And Björk had a hit tune in 1995, "Army of Me", in C-Locrian. Composing in other modes might be more acceptable if we did it like we do for compositions in major (Ionian) or minor (Aeolian) keys or modes. For example, in B-Locrian, just make sure Bdim or Bm7(b5) is the home chord or tonality. It's OK for the composition to have passages in other keys. The goal would be to introduce progressions that flow nicely into the Locrian home. Maybe an eerie, unsettled, or sad home, but that's like much of life, right? Here's a more recent example, a pop rock tune, "Wait It Out", mainly in B-Locrian, a bridge in F-Lydian, and a coda that ends on B-Ionian: https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/wait-it-out-rock-version-digital-sheet-music/21756181 The ending on B-major is analogous to a Bach prelude or fugue in a minor key ending on a major chord -- the piece is still considered to be in a minor key, the main tonality. Likewise, the main tonality of "Wait It Out" is Locrian.


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## Kyler Key

How I would describe the locrian mode is a mode with a question, but with no answer. A Dark Void with Chaotic and unstable energy.

Locrian is difficult to stay in, which makes it difficult to write and also to describe as no other music is like it. It's also used sparingly as it can be offputting/unnatural sounding with no release. In Locrian your root is diminished so there is no resolution. It is tension building. The general purpose of the diminished chord is to transition/lead you into a major or minor for release, but instead you use it as the root. Locrian is the medium between major and minor and I would not consider it minor as you can write in locrian using only major chords and the root as diminished. The key to locrian is using the diminished chord and really emphasizing the semitones between your root and second note. Say b locrian. B and C.

I composed this piece in locrian.


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## Wes Lachot

You know, if you guys keep bad-mouthing Locrian and calling it "unstable", some future metalheads are going to create a new genre of Locrian-only music, just to annoy everybody. 

A few cool factoids that most of you are probably already familiar with:

Locrian can be thought of as Lydian #1 (crazy, but still true; it's where the diatonic "cycle of modes" meets)

Locrian is the mirror image of Lydian

Aeolian is the mirror image of Mixolydian

Ionian is the mirror image of Phrygian

Dorian is the mirror image of.....Dorian!

The two axes of symmetry on the piano keyboard are D and Ab


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## Kyler Key

If you can figure out a way to make the diminished chord as your root sound stable, I'd like to hear it. I'd argue it's pretty much impossible without changing modes.

What you're describing within metal would be dominantly phrygian, but with some locrian.


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## Wes Lachot

Kyler Key said:


> If you can figure out a way to make the diminished chord as your root sound stable, I'd like to hear it. I'd argue it's pretty much impossible without changing modes.
> 
> What you're describing within metal would be dominantly phrygian, but with some locrian.


Hey Kyler! I guess my mediocre sense of humor falls flat coming across the internet. What I was trying to say is that eventually some metalheads will do it anyway, just to annoy everybody. You know, stability to the wind!

Back on point: I view the VII as a valid tonality even though it is unstable. I think it has it's own very unique mood and range of emotions, even if it is a tonality that yearns for resolution. I don't see how this quality should disqualify VII from the tonality club, since other tonal areas yearn for resolution as well. Only the I and VI can be called completely stable, generally. I feel that this yearning and restless quality is Subdominant in nature, pulling away from Tonic and toward the V7/VI, which is Dominant in character to my ears, to final resolution on the VI, which is Tonic in nature. As for the simple resolution from VII to I, we call that a type of plagal cadence (Subdominant to Tonic). [No hate letters, please--this is Wild Theory we're talking about. I know it doesn't jibe with Piston, Schoenberg, et.al.]


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## millionrainbows

Wes Lachot said:


> Back on point: I view the VII as a valid tonality even though it is unstable. I think it has it's own very unique mood and range of emotions, even if it is a tonality that yearns for resolution. I don't see how this quality should disqualify VII from the tonality club, since other tonal areas yearn for resolution as well. Only the I and VI can be called completely stable, generally.


That's an inclusive view, based on what works harmonically, and I also can hear vii as a m7b5 chord in jazz terms.

_But if we are going to "play the CP tonal game" and give each scale step its own function in the major/minor chord system_, then vii is a failure in these terms, because it has no fifth.

This also shows that the major scale is, therefore, not as harmonically stable (or static, if you prefer) as the Lydian scale, which can have fifths on every step.

It is not "bad" or radical or overly-critical to point this out, because the major/minor scale system is built for 'travel.'

Even Rameau recognized C major as exemplifying the IV-I-V triumvirate, in which "C" is a mid point between IV and V, allowing it to travel in fourths or fifths. Therefore, in the IV-I-V model, C or "I" is not the 'ultimate root' harmonically; IV is.

Piano tuners get all their white-note fifths from F, going F-C-G-D-A-E-B.

So really, the question is really _"is vii stable or unstable in relation to the other steps?"_ and the answer is _'unstable.'_


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## Wes Lachot

In my view major and minor are two of the things under the larger heading of modes. Major is Ionian--the terms are identical. And natural minor is the same as Aeolian.

So asking if Locrian is major or minor is like asking if Locrian is Ionian or Aeolian. The answer is neither. Locrian is Locrian. 

But then there is our more colloquial usuage of the terms "major" and "minor", since they are the words we know best to describe moods in music. Going beyond that dualistic thinking, the seven church modes can be thought of extending this idea to include more moods, as a sort of bright to dark scale. We talk of the brightest mode, Lydian, as sounding "more major than major", or of Phrygian sounding "more minor than minor, and of Locrian sounding "even more minor" than Phrygian. The point is that we don't have just two colors, happy and sad, we have seven of them within diatonic thinking--the church modes. 

And we tend to say the modes fall along the Lydian to Locrian mode line, but you can really start anywhere along this musical mobius strip, because it always loops back around.* 

Rameau did first publish the idea that Ionian sits at the fulcrum of Lydian and Myxolydian, and argued that the Tonic major chord having a major chord balancing it a P5th above and below made a certain geometrical sense (Dom and Subdom), and Ionian does have admirable symmetry from that standpoint. And this symmetry does aid in creating the sense of rationality of the music from this era, which fits well with the ideals of the Age of Reason, and in retrospect we would expect nothing less from Rameau and his contemporaries. But Rameau's definitions of what was and was not musically useful say as much about his time as anything else. Ionian may be the superior mode for writing in CP style, along with the various minor scales, but that doesn't set anyone's musical usage of the modes in stone, and it has not stopped modern composers from hearing things differently.

Though much music of the CP era does sit at this particular fulcrum point of the modal series (Ionian as Tonic), as Rameau rationalized and codified around Bach's time when that point made a lot of musical sense, the actual modal cycle, whether you view it linearly or as a progression of 5ths with a dim 5th leap, is circular and infinite, and any point can be the fulcrum for some composer or another. This is the same as the Diatonic Circle of 5ths which contains a six P5 leaps and 1 Dim5 leap.** 

However, leaving aside late 19th century classical music for the moment, dominant to tonic cadences didn't sound "cool" enough for many musicians in the 20th century who were writing completely tonal music in a variety of styles with recognizable cadences, just not so many authentic cadences. Even the tune "Yesterday", a simple tune set in a major key, contains only one authentic cadence in the entire tune, at the end of the bridge where a lttle more insistant energy was called for. All the others are plagal, a less insistant and final sounding cadence for a time when people were trying to act, look, and sound "cool" and not pedantic. Modern jazz went off in a modal direction in the late 1950s and exploited the Dorian for it's slightly dark but still very "alive and active" sound, and for it's symmetry. Rock and roll uses the Mixolydian mode as almost the preferred mode, if anything, over Ionian. (The Beatles' Revolver album is influenced by traditional Indian music and is very heavily Mixolydian.) Metal uses Aeolian, and so on. So Rameau's observations have not tied the hands of subsequent generations of composers, to whom all those V to I resolutions sounded, well, just a little too "pat" and obvious. Many Americal Songbook tunes feature "back door" b7 dominant resolutions, and rock tunes favor plagal cadences, and so on. So maybe Ionian doesn't always sit so firmly at the head of the table as it did in Rameau's day. 

Regarding the VII and Locrian in general: Many jazz musicians hear the VII tonality as the ii of the relative minor, making it a Subdominant tonality that tends to resolve to V/VI. A very important tonality in and of itself. It is related to the dominant 7th tonality a M3rd below, of course, but is not always heard that way because it does not always resolve that way. True, in earlier classical music the ii in minor is often voiced as ii6 (1st inversion), but by Brahms all of that is out of the window. 

I do realize that this omission of functional classification for VII (Locrian) goes back at least to Reimann, who simply left the VII tonality out of his system of functions. Maybe he wasn't listening to enough Brahms. His other designations, however, followed to their logical conclusions, do support the inclusion of the VII as Subdominant; for instance the labels V/VI as Dominant. 

As for the age-old argument from those who say Locrian is sub-musical and not able to hold it's liquor, so to speak, due to it's flatted 5th degree, I would humbly point out that many of those very same theorists have for years clung tightly their beloved French Augmented 6 chords, which possess this very same admittedly disturbing quality, embuing them with all manner of functional importance and validity, without feeling the need to ban them from their rightful place in Functional Harmony. 

By the way, I'm not saying Locrian deserves the status of Dominant or Tonic--those are higher heirarchical terms that are used by Reimann and others to subsume some of the scale degree titles like mediant and submediant under the more important groups of Tonic, Dominant, and Subdominant. I think Reimann's insticts were in the right place, but he just didn't yet have the historical perspective to think to include all 12 degrees in the system. Piston and and others catagorize the degrees differently from Reimann, and so on. I personally prefer Lenvai's method for it's symmetry and logic, and it's usefulness for analyzing music of a wider Common Practice period that includes up to the present day.


*To prove this to yourself, start with a C Ionion mode, then start flatting notes in order, to create the flatter sounding modes. First flat the 7th to create Mixolydian, then flat the 3rd to create Dorian, the 6the for Aeolian, the 2nd for Phrygian, and 5th for Locrain. What can we flat next? The 1 of course; it's the next one in the pattern. So now you look at the notes and you have C, flat everything, which is B of course. And you can go on from there, flatting everything until you get to Bb Lydian, and so on until you get back to where you started. It's just a pattern, a mathematical pattern. We give it a biased meaning since seven of the 12 notes have letter names and five don't, and that muddies the waters. It can be mind expanding to realize that pattern does not "begin with Phrygian and end with Locrain" in a true mathematical sense, nor does it in a musical sense, necessarily.

**There is also a Pentatonic Circle of 5ths, which contains four P5 leaps and one Aug5th leap.


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## millionrainbows

Major-minor tonality is what is called a system of music in which specific hierarchical pitch relationships are based on a key "center" or tonic. This should say something about the "classical" paradigm.



> Modern jazz went off in a modal direction in the late 1950s and exploited the Dorian for it's slightly dark but still very "alive and active" sound, and for it's symmetry.


Not just the "sound" of the modes; modal jazz is more concerned with a static harmonic congruity than classical music.




> Rock and roll uses the Mixolydian mode as almost the preferred mode, if anything, over Ionian. (The Beatles' Revolver album is influenced by traditional Indian music and is very heavily Mixolydian.)



I think in rock, a 'non-ionian' b7 sound is generally more connected to a blues influence; mixolydian shares the b7 of blues.

Although in the specific case of The Beatles' _Revolver,_ the mixolydian became the 'psychedelic' sound, I think this difference in sound is more long-term and rightly historically attributable to a blues influence. 

For the "non-blues" type of rock (Beach Boys, some early non-bluesy Stones songs, early Beatles, and the general influence of folk music), this "blues" sound was not present.

An interesting side-note, the b7 of blues is traceable back to Africa in instruments which used more "just" intonation, and this included the "harmonic seventh" which is flatter than the Western CP seventh, and therefore does not cry out for "resolving." Thus, the typical blues progressions of I7/IV7/V7 in which all chords have b7s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_seventh


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