# Who's the son of who?



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

I have always been interested in discovering when/how a specific composer was greatly influenced by one or more composers of the past, not onfly in terms of a direct relationship - i.e. a pupil/teacher one, a close friendship, etc. - but also in all those cases where the music of the _son_ seems a sort of natural development of the_ father_'s works.

For instance I can safely say that *Beethoven is the son of Haydn* - of course, he also was one of his pupils for a certain period of his life - but I can also say that *Scriabin is the son of Chopin*, although they never met each other, obviously.

Any other example?

Thanks

:tiphat:


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart was the son of Johann Christian Bach

Gustav Mahler was the son of Anton Bruckner

Puccini was the son of Verdi

Bartok was the son of Schoenberg


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Suk, son of Dvorak.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

ArtMusic said:


> . . .
> 
> Bartok was the son of Schoenberg


Sorry, I'm not quite seeing this connection.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> Gustav Mahler was the son of Anton Bruckner
> 
> i
> 
> Bartok was the son of Schoenberg


Er...I'd say if anything, Wagner was the father of both Bruckner and Mahler. Bruckner is also kind of the son of Schubert.

And I would say that Webern and Berg were the sons of Schoenberg, not so much Bartok...And Schoenberg was the son of Mahler and Brahms.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Schoenberg was the son of Bach!

And Unsuk Chin could very well be the daughter of Ligeti, although I find her music to have less overt humour.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

how about Brahms? was he a son of Schumann? for me he is much more a son of J.S.Bach and Beethoven


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Brahms was definitely a son of Beethoven, who was a son of Handel as well.
So Brahms was the grandson of Handel. Right? 
Just think at his fugues in the German Requiem...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Glinka - Rimsky-Korsakov
Smetana - Dvořák 
Gounoud - Massenet
von Weber - Wagner


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

helenora said:


> how about Brahms? was he a son of Schumann? for me he is much more a son of J.S.Bach and Beethoven


If Brahms was the son of Schumann, then I guess he had an Oedipal complex... :lol:


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> If Brahms was the son of Schumann, then I guess he had an Oedipal complex... :lol:


:lol:
indeed he had


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

And one might say Stravinsky had several fathers, one of whom was Rimsky-Korsakov.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> . . .
> 
> And Unsuk Chin could very well be the daughter of Ligeti, although I find her music to have less overt humour.


I need to listen again with this in mind. I know she studied with him, but I find her music harsher than much of Ligeti -- though quite good.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

GioCar said:


> Brahms was definitely a son of Beethoven, who was a son of Handel as well.
> So Brahms was the grandson of Handel. Right?
> Just think at his fugues in the German Requiem...


yes,that;s true, but I wouldn't deny the influence of both of them , both Bach and Handel influenced Beethoven, therefore he might have considered to be a son of both of them.....  and anyway I think thread wasn't created for finding one universal truth, but rather "Glasperlenspiel" and that's what I like about this thread


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

The 'son of' here is perhaps too weak (and inaccurate) a metaphor. In some cases the common epithet using the indefinite article may be appropriate.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Weston said:


> And one might say Stravinsky had several fathers, one of whom was Rimsky-Korsakov.


Yes, several fathers, but what about his sons? did he have any?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

GioCar said:


> Yes, several fathers, but what about his sons? did he have any?


Difficult to say as he reinvented himself on numerous occasions. Maybe more of a sperm donor than a father?


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

"Who's the son of who?"

It's me.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

- I'm really not sure whether Beethoven is more the son of Haydn or of Mozart. Like Haydn, he specializes in symphony more than opera or even concerto. Like Haydn, he seems to naturally think in small motifs, and maybe it would be fair to say that they both have a great skill for melody rather than an outright genius for it. On the other hand, his darkness, his sententiousness, and his length all seem to be extensions of Mozart.

- Brahms is definitely the son of Beethoven, but also, at least in his piano music, to a significant extent the son of Chopin. (Of course, so is everybody who's written for the piano since Chopin.)

- Likewise Debussy is the (heroically unwilling) son of Wagner, but also owes a lot to Schumann - maybe we can call Robert his big brother? (Along with maybe Berlioz and/or Saint-Saens?)

- Schoenberg is SO the son of Richard Strauss. As was Bartok initially, but maybe it was the influence of Schoenberg that turned him from the good composer of _Bluebeard's Castle_ to the great composer of the third string quartet. (Though the conventional wisdom is that Berg's _Lyric Suite_ was an essential stimulus behind the third quartet, so maybe Schoenberg became Bartok's grandpa?)

- Likewise, it seems to me that Scriabin became an important composer when he ceased being Chopin's son and became Wagner's.

- Stravinsky is either the son of Scriabin and grandson of Wagner, or just another son of Wagner.

- Neo-classical Stravinsky is also the son of late Verdi.

- Gyorgy Ligeti is the son of Bartok.

- Steve Reich and Philip Glass are the sons of Stravinsky.

- Gerard Grisey and Tristan Murail are the sons of Pierre Boulez.

- Boulez is the son of... either Schoenberg or Messiaen and/or Stravinsky, I guess; maybe equally two or three of the aforementioned? (Certainly not of Webern.)

- Robert Ashley is the son of Philip Glass.

- Meredith Monk is the daughter of Steve Reich, and another generation on so is Julia Wolfe, and John Luther Adams is so utterly his son that it's funny. That kitschmeister has enthralled American classical music but _good_ (and then the Steve reich has provinces overseas too, e.g Louis Andriessen; on the other hand, Arvo Part has established a province over here in David Lang).


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, Liszt was literally Wagner's father-in-law.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Mahler and R. Strauss are clearly siblings of some sort.

Beethoven and Hummel are clearly _not_ siblings as we were led to believe when I was younger. John Field may be a stepbrother however.

Ferdinand Ries and Anton Rubinstein are perhaps not so much offspring, but rather channeling Beethoven, or just Beethoven wannabes -- though they were very good at it.

This is really pretty cool! We should create a kind of composer taxidermy.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

> Beethoven and Hummel are clearly _not _siblings as we would be led to believe when I was younger.


Well, if they're both the offspring of Mozart, maybe they're just siblings who never talk to each other?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Epilogue said:


> - Boulez is the son of... either Schoenberg or Messiaen and/or Stravinsky, I guess; maybe equally two or three of the aforementioned? (Certainly not of Webern.)


Oh? You think there's more of Schoenberg than Webern in Boulez? Why is that?



Weston said:


> Mahler and R. Strauss are clearly siblings of some sort.


Neither cared for the other's music very much, though. Sibling arguments, I suppose.

Takemitsu is the son of Debussy and Messiaen.

Copland is the son of Stravinsky and...perhaps Faure, whose music he admired deeply?

Berg was the true son of Mahler.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Contrary to prior belief, Schubert was not the son of Beethoven. He was absolutely the son of Mozart. Beethoven was the uncle who bought him beer when he was underage.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

Tchaikovsky/Rachmaninov.

Beethoven/Brahms.

Shostakovich/Schnittke.

Sibelius/Rautavaara.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Rameau was the rebellious stepson of Lully.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

Mahlerian said:


> Oh? You think there's more of Schoenberg than Webern in Boulez? Why is that?


First, because I'm not sure Webern is a great enough composer to actually be a major influence on anybody - which is probably exactly why so many people openly claimed to be influenced by him.

Second, relatedly, if Boulez really owed all that much to Webern, he probably wouldn't have talked so much about it.

Third - considering Boulez's second piano sonata, which is the work that put him on the map, it's distinguished by its dramatic power and maybe also its recreation of some of the effects of the classical sonata in a 12 tone idiom - both of which are much more Schoenbergian qualities than Webernian ones - though its construction out of short rhythmic cells maybe owes most to Messiaen and/or Stravinsky (or Honegger?). Then the works from _Le marteau sans maitre_ onward are distinguished by Boulez's famous mastery of sensual color - which again comes maybe from Messiaen (with Debussy behind him?) and/or Stravinsky, or even from Schoenberg ("Farben," parts of _Erwartung_, "Herzgewächse"...) - anywhere but Webern.



scratchgolf said:


> Contrary to prior belief, Schubert was not the son of Beethoven. He was absolutely the son of Mozart. Beethoven was the uncle who bought him beer when he was underage.


Excellent!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> Gustav Mahler was the son of Anton Bruckner


You're taking the mick, right?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

scratchgolf said:


> Contrary to prior belief, Schubert was not the son of Beethoven. He was absolutely the son of Mozart. Beethoven was the uncle who bought him beer when he was underage.


I can't imagine two composers further apart than Beethoven and Schubert.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Epilogue said:


> First, because I'm not sure Webern is a great enough composer to actually be a major influence on anybody - which is probably exactly why so many people openly claimed to be influenced by him.
> 
> Second, relatedly, if Boulez really owed all that much to Webern, he probably wouldn't have talked so much about it.
> 
> Third - considering Boulez's second piano sonata, which is the work that put him on the map, it's distinguished by its dramatic power and maybe also its recreation of some of the effects of the classical sonata in a 12 tone idiom - both of which are much more Schoenbergian qualities than Webernian ones - though its construction out of short rhythmic cells maybe owes most to Messiaen and/or Stravinsky (or Honegger?). Then the works from _Le marteau sans maitre_ onward are distinguished by Boulez's famous mastery of sensual color - which again comes maybe from Messiaen (with Debussy behind him?) and/or Stravinsky, or even from Schoenberg ("Farben," parts of _Erwartung_, "Herzgewächse"...) - anywhere but Webern.


If there's one key way in which Boulez takes more after Webern than Schoenberg, I'd say it's in the way he writes lines and conceives of the pitch space as more of a fragmented web of interconnected points more than Schoenberg's longer-breathed melodic writing.

It's true that I wouldn't consider Webern's timbre particularly lushly sensual as the later works of Boulez, but surely the careful deployment of instruments and textures in the Symphony or the later song settings was one of the things that influenced the writing in Visage Nuptial and the choice of ensemble for Le marteau (although it would certainly not be far off the mark to call Le marteau's instrumentation a variation on the Pierrot ensemble).

I'd say that Boulez's treatment of timbre in general is very much unlike either Schoenberg or Webern, and is much more in line with Ravel, Debussy, or Messiaen.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Weston said:


> This is really pretty cool! We should create a kind of composer taxidermy.


 Taxonomy! Taxonomy, my good sir. I'd not want to see anyone stuffed.

Well if Boulez is officially Webern's son then it's possible that the infants Kurtág and Boulez were switched at the birth...I demand a DNA test!

Britten is certainly Frank Bridge's adopted son, whilst Bridge himself ran away from the Stanford-Parry household and was adopted by Debussy and Berg.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

To me, Wolfgang Rihm sounds like the son of Berg.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Taxonomy! Taxonomy, my good sir. I'd not want to see anyone stuffed.


I believe Brahms was stuffed some 40 years before he died.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> I can't imagine two composers further apart than Beethoven and Schubert.


Really? I think this is an exaggeration.

How about Monteverdi and Liszt? I think they are farther apart.

Harmonically Schubert's Piano Sonatas sound closely related to Beethoven.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Roy Harris is the son of Sibelius!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Taxonomy! Taxonomy, my good sir. I'd not want to see anyone stuffed.


I'd be okay with seeing John Coolidge Adams stuffed.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

tdc said:


> Really? I think this is an exaggeration.
> 
> How about Monteverdi and Liszt? I think they are farther apart.
> 
> Harmonically Schubert's Piano Sonatas sound closely related to Beethoven.


Not exaggeration, poetic license. The reason I posted it is because I've been thinking about how un-goal oriented Schubert is, and how totally directional Beethoven is.

Morton Feldman is the son of Schubert


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Morton Feldman is the son of Schubert


Feldman had many fathers indeed, most of them in the paintings and carpets fields...


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Epilogue said:


> .....
> 
> - Neo-classical Stravinsky is also the son of late Verdi.
> 
> ...


Interesting. In which way?


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

ArtMusic said:


> Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart was the son of Johann Christian Bach
> 
> Gustav Mahler was the son of Anton Bruckner
> 
> ...


I can agree largely with the first of these, but to suggest Mahler is the son of Bruckner is misunderstanding the music of both composers. Or is it because they both wrote long symphonies?

There is just as much Wagner in Puccini as there is Verdi. Perhaps more.

Bartók and Schoenberg were contemporaries and their music has so little in common I would say this analogy is completely erroneous.

Some of my own I might add:

Mozart was the son of Gluck (in his operas).
Berg was the son of Mahler.
Vivaldi was the son of Corelli.
Debussy was the son of Fauré.
Varèse and Messiaen were both sons of Debussy with very different personalities.
Siegfried Wagner was the son of his dad Richard (literally and musically).
Weinberg and (especially) Tishchenko were the sons of Shostakovich.
Madetoja was the son of Sibelius; Kalevi Aho the grandson.
Verdi was the son of Donizetti.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

If Smetana was the father of Dvorak, then Brahms was surely his Uncle Johannes. And was not Sibelius possibly a father to Walton?


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

Delicious Manager said:


> I can agree largely with the first of these, but to suggest Mahler is the son of Bruckner is misunderstanding the music of both composers. Or is it because they both wrote long symphonies?
> 
> There is just as much Wagner in Puccini as there is Verdi. Perhaps more.


No way. In discussing Puccini, us music geeks get all excited because there are leitmotifs for us to pick out and the orchestra doesn't sound like a big guitar, but the reason anybody cares about Puccini in the first place is his melodies and how they're deployed in a dramatic context, and that's all Giuseppe, zero Richard.



Delicious Manager said:


> Bartók and Schoenberg were contemporaries and their music has so little in common I would say this analogy is completely erroneous.


That seems to me a strange thing to say, if only because of their respective debts to Richard Strauss.

(Not actually only because of that - I've already mentioned the often-made connection between _Lyric Suite_ - by Arnold Jr. - and Bartók's third string quartet.)



Delicious Manager said:


> Debussy was the son of Fauré.


Hmmm, maybe I agree, maybe not. Would you be willing to elaborate?



Delicious Manager said:


> Vivaldi was the son of Corelli...
> Verdi was the son of Donizetti.


Yup, yup.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

Mozart I feel may be fundamentally the son of some contemporary opera composer or composers, more than of J. C. Bach or even of Haydn.

So far the most likely sounding candidate I know of is Niccolo Jommelli: 




But I feel like I must still be missing something.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> If Smetana was the father of Dvorak, then Brahms was surely his Uncle Johannes. And was not Sibelius possibly a father to Walton?


I'd go along with that - I connected Smetana with Dvořák in paternal terms primarily because of the 'Czech-ness' of many of their operas, symphonic poems and songs and also because Dvořák was, nationally speaking, Smetana's most illustrious successor (I could have chosen 'b'-listers like Kovařovic or Foerster but that would be hypothetical as I haven't heard anything by them nor am I likely to). But yes, I'd otherwise connect Dvořák with Brahms largely because of the chamber works and some of the orchestral music.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

And Clemens Non Papa had no sons at all! :lol:




I'll get my mackintosh.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

@GioCar

re Strav and Verdi, here's something I posted on another forum a few days ago:

_Oedipus rex_ begins with a quotation of "Pieta ti prenda" from _Aïda_ that may or may not be significant (Leonard Bernstein thought it was), and the opening more generally parallels the opening of _Otello_ in a way that probably _is_ significant (that is, not overtly close enough to be mere scaffolding, too close to be coincidence). And then, starting in works written about a decade later, critics keep finding obscured borrowings from or unconscious half reminiscences of _Falstaff_, in _Jeux des cartes_, the _Symphony in C_, the _Dumbarton Oaks_ concerto, and _The Rake's Progress_.

What happened, I think, is that when Stravinsky avowedly set out to write ambitious music based primarily on _melody_, and sourced in the Italian and French opera that had been such an important part of the musical life of the Russian elite before the October revolution, then late Verdi, previously not very important to him, suddenly loomed up as a great predecessor.

re Reichglass and Strav: If I told you about a piece that was essentially a series of dances without pauses in between; with what Richard Taruskin calls a "strongly articulated subtactile pulse"; largely consonant and never atonal, but not "tonal" in the sense of long range harmonic tension; and where some of the most memorable moments involve the same block chord played over and over again at quarter note intervals for many bars at a time - would you know whether I was talking about _The Rite of Spring_ or _Music for 18 Musicians_? Before that, early Reich's phasing technique is implicit in "The Procession of the Sage" and the accompaniment to Parasha's song in _Mavra_. And Glass is distinguished from Reich by (a) his kitschifying Indian rather than African music, and (b) his employing and extending Stravinsky's technique of lengthening and shortening phrases upon repetition.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

GioCar said:


> but I can also say that *Scriabin is the son of Chopin*, although they never met each other, obviously.


Chopin only served as initial inspiration. 
Seems to me many piano composers are also sons of Liszt.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Sorabji is the son of Liszt, although Liszt is probably very ashamed.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

Luigi Nono is the son-in-law of Arnold Schoenberg!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

On a more political level, Nono is brothers (comrades?) with Copland and Eisler.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Epilogue said:


> @GioCar
> 
> re Strav and Verdi, here's something I posted on another forum a few days ago:
> 
> ...


Nice view, but according to what you say I think that Rossini is the man, more than Verdi. Any references on the obscure borrowings from Falstaff you mentioned?



Epilogue said:


> re Reichglass and Strav: If I told you about a piece that was essentially a series of dances without pauses in between; with what Richard Taruskin calls a "strongly articulated subtactile pulse"; largely consonant and never atonal, but not "tonal" in the sense of long range harmonic tension; and where some of the most memorable moments involve the same block chord played over and over again at quarter note intervals for many bars at a time - would you know whether I was talking about _The Rite of Spring_ or _Music for 18 Musicians_? Before that, early Reich's phasing technique is implicit in "The Procession of the Sage" and the accompaniment to Parasha's song in _Mavra_. And Glass is distinguished from Reich by (a) his kitschifying Indian rather than African music, and (b) his employing and extending Stravinsky's technique of lengthening and shortening phrases upon repetition.


I think you may talk about just one feature of Le Sacre. To me this is not enough to justify a real relationship between the two works. And I believe it's a bit distorted to speak of phasing technique in Stravinsky's music.

Anyway, thank you for your opinions, for sure they are original and stimulating, but I'm still having trouble considering those composers so strongly related, Reich/Glass to Stravinsky in particular.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> On a more political level, Nono is brothers (comrades?) with Copland and Eisler.


and with Henze as well...


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Epilogue said:


> Quote Originally Posted by Delicious Manager
> 
> There is just as much Wagner in Puccini as there is Verdi. Perhaps more.
> 
> No way. In discussing Puccini, us music geeks get all excited because there are leitmotifs for us to pick out and the orchestra doesn't sound like a big guitar, but the reason anybody cares about Puccini in the first place is his melodies and how they're deployed in a dramatic context, and that's all Giuseppe, zero Richard.


My opinion, your opinion. *WE two music geeks will have to agree to disagree.



Epilogue said:


> Quote Originally Posted by Delicious Manager View Post
> Bartók and Schoenberg were contemporaries and their music has so little in common I would say this analogy is completely erroneous.
> 
> That seems to me a strange thing to say, if only because of their respective debts to Richard Strauss.
> ...


Then, at a stretch (and it *IS* a stretch for me), Bartók and Schoenberg could be brothers (don't forget Schoenberg's self-proclaimed indebtedness to Brahms), but NOT father and son.



Epilogue said:


> Quote Originally Posted by Delicious Manager View Post
> Debussy was the son of Fauré.
> Hmmm, maybe I agree, maybe not. Would you be willing to elaborate?


Think of the way Fauré stretched harmony (influenced by Wagner) and loosened the strictures of form. Debussy absorbed this and took it even further.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

GioCar said:


> Nice view, but according to what you say I think that Rossini is the man, more than Verdi.


The key word was "ambitious." I think the fluid relationship between aria, arioso, and recitative in late Verdi made him relevant to neo-classical Stravinsky in a way that earlier 19th centuryItalian opera wasn't.



GioCar said:


> Any references on the obscure borrowings from Falstaff you mentioned?


Angelo Cantoni wrote an essay on it - "Verdi e Stravinskij" (_Studi verdi i_, 10, 1994-95) - which unfortunately as far as I know exists only in Italian, and is not available for free on the internet (I think I read it on JSTOR, but it may have been somewhere else).

That aside, let me know if either of these links don't work:

https://books.google.com/books?id=4_jUCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA262
https://books.google.com/books?id=BfbGqVIru9oC&pg=PA401



GioCar said:


> I think you may talk about just one feature of Le Sacre. To me this is not enough to justify a real relationship between the two works. And I believe it's a bit distorted to speak of phasing technique in Stravinsky's music.


I agree that to do the latter is a bit distorted. But then, that means it's not _entirely_ distorted.

As for Reich's mature style, the question is, if not from Stravinsky, then from where? Elements from bebop and African music, of course, but from whence the element that makes them something other than bebop and African music?


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Epilogue said:


> The key word was "ambitious." I think the fluid relationship between aria, arioso, and recitative in late Verdi made him relevant to neo-classical Stravinsky in a way that earlier 19th centuryItalian opera wasn't.
> 
> Angelo Cantoni wrote an essay on it - "Verdi e Stravinskij" (_Studi verdi i_, 10, 1994-95) - which unfortunately as far as I know exists only in Italian, and is not available for free on the internet (I think I read it on JSTOR, but it may have been somewhere else).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the references and the links (both working). Italian is my first language so I'd have no problem, but I've never heard of Angelo Cantoni. I'll have to go deeper in it.



Epilogue said:


> I agree that to do the latter is a bit distorted. But then, that means it's not _entirely_ distorted.
> 
> As for Reich's mature style, the question is, if not from Stravinsky, then from where? Elements from bebop and African music, of course, but from whence the element that makes them something other than bebop and African music?


Well, afaik when he first discovered African music and its circular structure (possibly his primary source of inspiration)
- he was studying serialism with Berio (who somehow pushed him towards his real passions, rythm and tonality), 
- he was at home at the San Francisco Tape Music Center where he experimented the tape looping technique,
- he joined Riley's _in C_ experience,
- he discovered Coltrane's modal jazz.
Then he "wrote" by chance his first piece employing the phasing technique: _It's gonna rain_...

In answer to your question, what about a combination of all these?


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

Well, as I half-said, if African music is his primary source, why is he generally perceived as classical music rather than African music (or "world music")?

Reich's use of African music and jazz seems to me a more extreme version of Debussy's use of gamelan - they're secondary influences that he uses to modify a more basic influence (Debussy's basic influence being, of course, Wagner).

Maybe Reich's phasing compositions owe something to the aesthetics - though not the techniques - of the total serialist and chance composers of the 1950s (that is, aesthetics by which the composer's agency is somewhat removed, as the music somewhat writes itself according to a pre-determined plan).

But as far as what his music actually sounds like, I think Reich has nothing to do with Berio and a lot to do with Stravinsky. Or, alternately, maybe with the Nadia Boulanger-trained American composers - which probably means above all Aaron Copland, or maybe the Elliott Carter of the cello sonata and the sonata for flute, oboe, cello, and harpsichord (in both cases certainly not similar in melody, but maybe in texture). Philip Glass, of course, was himself a Boulanger pupil himself, and started out as a blatant Copland imitator.


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