# flats and sharps



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

will some one explain to me what is meant by a symphony written in C sharp of F flat and why? or any musical comp related to classical.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

It simply refers to the key in which a composition is written.


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Is your question about F-flat's relation to C-sharp minor? If so read this article at Wikipedia.


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> Is your question about F-flat's relation to C-sharp minor? If so read this article at Wikipedia.


The very concept of F-flat makes me want to scream "EEEEEEEE!"


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ldiat said:


> will some one explain to me what is meant by a symphony written in C sharp of F flat and why? or any musical comp related to classical.


Very serious question, have you not had music lessons in school?


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Very serious question, have you not had music lessons in school?


Not all schools have music lessons, i would think, and of the ones that do, I doubt whether many explain the concept of tonality. I am not entirely clear on what the OP is asking anyway; hopefully he will clarify.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Don't B♭, don't B♯. 
B♮.
Then you won't have to worry about all this stuff.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Generally, a piece of music (a movement or a multi-movement work) starts in a particular key, has various adventures during which it departs from that home key, and eventually ends back home in the original key -- a process that sounds very satisfying, whether or not you know exactly why. The home key -- C, C-sharp, F-sharp, B-flat, etc. -- is considered the key the piece is "in."

If you need an explanation of what keys are, or how they work. just ask.


----------



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Very serious question, have you not had music lessons in school?


i went to cooking school! chzzz i was playing on the 6 burner stove....."chef's piano" (well thats what they call it)


----------



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

brianvds said:


> The very concept of F-flat makes me want to scream "EEEEEEEE!"


just using f flat as a eg.


----------



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> Is your question about F-flat's relation to C-sharp minor? If so read this article at Wikipedia.


thank you informative


----------



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

MarkW said:


> Generally, a piece of music (a movement or a multi-movement work) starts in a particular key, has various adventures during which it departs from that home key, and eventually ends back home in the original key -- a process that sounds very satisfying, whether or not you know exactly why. The home key -- C, C-sharp, F-sharp, B-flat, etc. -- is considered the key the piece is "in."
> 
> If you need an explanation of what keys are, or how they work. just ask.


so i guess i asked wrong. so why is the piece "in" that key??


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The standard musical scales and modes comprise seven notes — seven out of the twelve notes that exist in the Western Classical system. Major scales all have the same pattern, a series of whole steps and half steps. (For a half step go from one key on the piano to the next highest or lowest, for a whole step, go to the key two higher or lower. For example, C-C# is a half step, C-D is a whole step.) All major scales have this pattern:

1 - 1 - 1/2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1/2 (do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do)

If you start that pattern on C, you get: C-D-E-F-G-A-B (then it starts over again on C if one keeps ascending). That is a C major scale.

If you start the pattern on C#, you get: C#-D#-E#-F#-G#-A#-B#. That is a C# major scale. 

Start the pattern on each successive note and you eventually get twelve different major scales. 

D major: D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#

E-flat major: Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D

And so on …


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

ldiat said:


> so i guess i asked wrong. so why is the piece "in" that key??


Because it uses that particular set of seven pitches in a central way, and because the pitch the key is named after is home base in that key. A melody in C major "wants" to end on the note C. A piece in C major wants to end on a C major chord.

If you just listen to Julie Andrews singing "Do a deer," all will be made clear.


----------



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Because it uses that particular set of seven pitches in a central way, and because the pitch the key is named after is home base in that key. A melody in C major "wants" to end on the note C. A piece in C major wants to end on a C major chord.
> 
> If you just listen to Julie Andrews singing "Do a deer," all will be made clear.


ok thanks that does explain it. so Mozart Symphony 41 C Major starts in c and ends in C?


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

ldiat said:


> ok thanks that does explain it. so Mozart Symphony 41 C Major starts in c and ends in C?


Its melody and harmony use notes primarily in and related to the key of C - i.e. all the white notes in this case, though others may be used. A piece may shift to other keys and then return (or not!)


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

ldiat said:


> ok thanks that does explain it. so Mozart Symphony 41 C Major starts in c and ends in C?


Indeed it does! The first, third, and final movements are in the key of C. Each ends on a C major chord or the note C. The second movement, however, is in F major. This is normal. In a four movement symphony, the first movement and finale are almost invariably in the same key, the home key, the one the work is named after. But the internal movements, the second and third, are often in other keys, and the later one goes in history, the more remote these keys are likely to be from the home key, or _tonic_. Individual movements are the same way - they start and end in the home key, but in between they often change keys (or_ modulate_) frequently. The most critical thing for naming the key is where the movement or symphony ends, next most important is where it starts.

Rarely, a work will start in one key and end in another. Mahler's Fifth Symphony starts in C# minor and ends in D major. Chopin has several famous works that start and end in different keys.

Many Romantic Era symphonies and sonatas start in the minor mode and end in the major mode. Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, for example, starts in C minor but ends in C major. But note that the tonic, the home pitch, is the same in the first movement and the finale.


----------



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Indeed it does! The first, third, and final movements are in the key of C. Each ends on a C major chord or the note C. The second movement, however, is in F major. This is normal. In a four movement symphony, the first movement and finale are almost invariably in the same key, the home key, the one the work is named after. But the internal movements, the second and third, are often in other keys, and the later one goes in history, the more remote these keys are likely to be from the home key, or _tonic_. Individual movements are the same way - they start and end in the home key, but in between they often change keys (or_ modulate_) frequently. The most critical thing for naming the key is where the movement or symphony ends, next most important is where it starts.
> 
> Rarely, a work will start in one key and end in another. Mahler's Fifth Symphony starts in C# minor and ends in D major. Chopin has several famous works that start and end in different keys.
> 
> Many Romantic Era symphonies and sonatas start in the minor mode and end in the major mode. Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, for example, starts in C minor but ends in C major. But note that the tonic, the home pitch, is the same in the first movement and the finale.


ok thank you that does explain it nicely.


----------



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> Its melody and harmony use notes primarily in and related to the key of C - i.e. all the white notes in this case, though others may be used. A piece may shift to other keys and then return (or not!)


cool thanks got it!


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

ldiat said:


> so i guess i asked wrong. so why is the piece "in" that key??


I'd say that's because it's the original key that the composer heard the musical ideas inside his or her head, and that the key is something that comes to the composer spontaneously. While it's possible to deliberately decide to write a composition in the key of C or any other key, I believe the truly skillful and great composers write down the key in which they hear the composition, and then they continue on from that starting point and follow the ideas whereever they may lead, including those ideas that might transition into another key. Otherwise why would a composer write ideas down in the very complicated key of G flat or C sharp major that are generally much more complicated to notate on paper than a composition written in perhaps the easier to notate key of C? It's possible that the original idea of the composition could conceivably occur to the composer in any key. It's almost as if some of the musical ideas floating in the air want to be written down in a certain key, and it's up to the composer to go with it. It's a bit of a hard thing to explain. But it may include the idea that certain keys have certain emotional characteristics that are in keeping with the ideas that may be associated with it. The example of deliberately choosing a key can be found in Bach's The Well-Tempered Clavier that goes through all the 24 major and minor keys.


----------



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

Larkenfield said:


> I'd say that's because it's the original key that the composer heard the musical ideas inside his or her head, and that the key is something that comes to the composer spontaneously. While it's possible to deliberately decide to write a composition in the key of C or any other key, I believe the truly skillful and great composers write down the key in which they hear the composition, and then they continue on from that starting point and follow the ideas whereever they may lead, including those ideas that might transition into another key. Otherwise why would a composer write ideas down in the very complicated key of G flat or C sharp major that are generally much more complicated to notate on paper than a composition written in perhaps the easier to notate key of C? It's possible that the original idea of the composition could conceivably occur to the composer in any key. It's almost as if some of the musical ideas floating in the air want to be written down in a certain key, and it's up to the composer to go with it. It's a bit of a hard thing to explain. But it may include the idea that certain keys have certain emotional characteristics that are in keeping with the ideas that may be associated with it. The example of deliberately choosing a key can be found in Bach's The Well-Tempered Clavier that goes through all the 24 major and minor keys.


thanks for the info i will listen


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Put a different way, there are 12 possible notes in western music, but as it turns out, in the common practice period, which lasted from around 1600 - 1900, and during which most of the famous classical music was written, any one piece was based on a selection of seven of those twelve notes. The key signature tells you which seven. 

In this sort of music the key is important because composers would play around with the music, and move it to different but related keys, and eventually return to the original "home" key in a satisfying manner. The piece is said to be "in" that home key.

Now if, like me, you don't have perfect pitch, the keys all sound pretty much the same: if you play me Beethoven's fifth symphony in D minor instead of C minor, I will not notice. But m,any of the composers did have perfect pitch, and to them different keys had different characters, so it did make a difference.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

brianvds said:


> Put a different way, there are 12 possible notes in western music, but as it turns out, in the common practice period, which lasted from around 1600 - 1900, and during which most of the famous classical music was written, any one piece was based on a selection of seven of those twelve notes. The key signature tells you which seven.
> 
> In this sort of music the key is important because composers would play around with the music, and move it to different but related keys, and eventually return to the original "home" key in a satisfying manner. The piece is said to be "in" that home key.
> 
> Now if, like me, you don't have perfect pitch, the keys all sound pretty much the same: if you play me Beethoven's fifth symphony in D minor instead of C minor, I will not notice. But m,any of the composers did have perfect pitch, and to them different keys had different characters, so it did make a difference.


Well and clearly explained!

Are you sure you wouldn't notice if Beethoven's 5th was played a whole tone too high? It doesn't take perfect pitch to recognize something is different. The timbre of the winds changes with a difference in pitch and this comes through. And the weight of the whole texture just feels different. You might be right that you would experience no difference, but I wouldn't just assume it.


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Well and clearly explained!
> 
> Are you sure you wouldn't notice if Beethoven's 5th was played a whole tone too high? It doesn't take perfect pitch to recognize something is different. The timbre of the winds changes with a difference in pitch and this comes through. And the weight of the whole texture just feels different. You might be right that you would experience no difference, but I wouldn't just assume it.


Well, I have not tried it. Or perhaps I have, and didn't notice! 
They do this experiment to some extent when performing on period instruments, because these are usually tuned a half tone or so lower, and I cant say I notice any difference, except of course for the different timbres of instruments themselves. If they play a piece a few tones up or down I might notice that something is different without necessarily being able to quite put my finger on it.

It's a peculiar thing to think that if Beethoven heard modern performances of his works, he would probably experience them as being in the wrong key, and likely go through the roof about it.


----------

