# Which social class do you consider yourself to be a part of?



## Argus

What social class do you self-identify as?

Which class do _feel_ like you belong to?


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## regressivetransphobe

As an American, I'm a temporarily embarrassed millionaire.


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## Manxfeeder

I'm straight down the middle.


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## violadude

I'm in the dirt poor class, but I'm only 19 so that's to be expected.


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## kv466

I am most definitely a worker although I am lucky enough to own my home...while I am a social chameleon and can hang with rich and poor alike, I find myself most comfortable around musicians...whether they are starving artists or super rich dudes with their own recording studio at home...in music, there are no social classes; not with the folks I surround myself with, at least...beyond musicians, I like having all different kinds of friends.


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## clavichorder

I'm a 19 year old, still mostly dependent on my parents, who are upper middle class. How I yearn for independence for various reasons and fear the process of it for others.


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## Artemis

Argus said:


> What social class do you self-identify as?
> 
> Which class do _feel_ like you belong to?


What choices do we have?


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## sospiro

I'm all three.

I'm poor working middle class but I go to Royal Opera House which makes me (in some eyes) a toff.


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## Argus

I'm wasn't thinking in terms of your economic situation or line of work. I was just wondering which group you feel most kinship towards.



sospiro said:


> I'm poor working middle class but I go to Royal Opera House which makes me (in some eyes) a toff.


Okay, a decisive question: Do you prefer cucumber sandwiches or chip butties?


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## Lenfer

I come from a working class background and I voted working class.

However all my friends and colleagues say I'm upper-middle class which is as bad as it can get as long as there has been no inbreeding in your family history lately. This would mean I'm even more bourgeoisie than those petite bourgeoisie of the middle classes? *Marx* and *Engels* would be ashamed.

I'm not really bothered although I disagree with them. I'll let you decide once you've gotten to know me I'd be happy to here what you think. The class system is pretty out of date yet it still exists and still today people believe in it with such reverence.

Humans like being put into groupes it's the same as choosing your favourite sports team or composer even. It's just an excuse or even a justification to be nasty to other people and to think you are in some irrefutable way their superior.


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## Guest

Upper middle.


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## Manxfeeder

Argus said:


> I'm wasn't thinking in terms of your economic situation or line of work. I was just wondering which group you feel most kinship towards.


My particular church community includes all classes, so I'm always around people of different social strata. When I'm among them, I'm not particularly aware of social class distinctions. Most everyone there realizes they're sinners saved by grace, so it's hard to get puffed up in that context (or at least it _should_ be).


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## Klavierspieler

Middle Middle-class.


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## Bix

Chip butties or blind scouse for me - working class.










this is what my great grandfather did, he was the man who introduced Dad into classical music, socialist politics and on how to be a decent human being - great man


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## starthrower

I live in America, the new banana republic, so I'm working my way to the bottom with all of the other honest folks!


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## Polednice

I identify _and_ empathise with working class.

My Dad and his Dad both worked for the major shipyard in Barrow-in-Furness, my Granddad being a welder, my Dad moving a step upward by becoming a draughtsman. Since my Dad's youth, though he changed his line of work and we moved to the south of the UK, our financial situation has never really changed, and we're still a very 'northern' family, however you'd like to define that.

As it stands, there are seven of us living in a cramped three-bedroom house, and I am an exception to my family in that the rest of them love the X Factor and never read. 

I imagine, however, that I'm a new special case for our line of folk, as I'm the first to get a university education. As such, I'm bound to have to transcend that working class boundary, though (as they've always tried to guilt trip me, not they ever had to) I'll never 'forget my roots'.


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## Kopachris

I live in the lower class, in a mobile home even, but I feel like I belong in the upper class. I'm entirely dependent on my parents for now, especially since there are no jobs for anyone under 21 in the town I live in (it's a casino town), but I'd like to start my own business and get some cash flow going to invest with. Gotta spend money to make money, but I don't have any money to spend right now.


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## Ukko

The US is a functional (or dysfunctional, depending on your chosen criteria) plutocracy. Social classes therefor are measured in income + accrued wealth - with some variation in the lower strata due to regional effects.

So... your survey choices don't work.


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## Chris

Hilltroll72 said:


> The US is a functional (or dysfunctional, depending on your chosen criteria) plutocracy. Social classes therefor are measured in income + accrued wealth - with some variation in the lower strata due to regional effects.
> 
> So... your survey choices don't work.


As I understand it 'middle class' in US covers pretty well everyone who works.

Argus, your mention of chip butties may also cause confusion as our chips are not America's chips.


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## kv466

My momma always said Argus is as Argus does.


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## Ravellian

I'm whatever a single, $50K-salaried person is considered. Middle class?


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## Kopachris

Chris said:


> As I understand it 'middle class' in US covers pretty well everyone who works.


Oh. Well, in that case, my family is middle class.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

I am proudly a part of the Black Sabbath social class.


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## elgar's ghost

I don't really consider myself as belonging to any class in particular although I definitely have a working-class/blue collar background (both parents born in the 'know your place' 1920s, neither in the easiest of circumstances). As far as I'm aware I don't affect a 'BBC non-accent' or any particular mannerisms yet I'm often assumed to be middle class for reasons that totally escape me - perhaps it's because I'm not too bad at the Daily Telegraph cryptic crossword or something else that's assumed to be a largely middle class characteristic such as preferring rugby to football (which I do). I've usually felt comfortable with all kinds of people probably because my state school education years during the 60s and 70s were spent making and remaining friends with folk from different backgrounds, a luxury denied to my parents. Moving on a few decades I'm also pleased to say that my local pub plays host to a diverse clientele which includes a lawyer, a machine operator, an artist, a carpet fitter, a male nurse and a very successful vehicle mechanic - all of whom can be relied on for convivial and interesting company.


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## Ukko

Ravellian said:


> I'm whatever a single, $50K-salaried person is considered. Middle class?


Lower-lower middle, unless you live in the boonies. There, you would be a professional or a manager to get that salary, so you go up one class - only in local society, of course. I don't know that you would make any sort of middle class in NYC or LA with that salary. That's what I mean by regional effects.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Well, I'm too young to speak for myself, but I would say my family is upper-middle class, not really upper class though. My career path is gonna settle me down into regular middle class though, I think. :/


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## samurai

Could anyone explain to us Americans what *chip butties *are?


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## Ravellian

Hilltroll72 said:


> Lower-lower middle, unless you live in the boonies. There, you would be a professional or a manager to get that salary, so you go up one class - only in local society, of course. I don't know that you would make any sort of middle class in NYC or LA with that salary. That's what I mean by regional effects.


I've made it a point to get a job outside of a major city like NYC or Baltimore, where having a $50K salary is pretty much peanuts.. and opted for much cheaper living conditions.


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## Manxfeeder

samurai said:


> Could anyone explain to us Americans what *chip butties *are?


Looks, uh, delish.










http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_butty


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## Bix

Polednice said:


> I imagine, however, that I'm a new special case for our line of folk, as I'm the first to get a university education. As such, I'm bound to have to transcend that working class boundary, though (as they've always tried to guilt trip me, not they ever had to) I'll never 'forget my roots'.


This is the bit that I have always found tricky - does going to university automatically take you out of the working class bracket. My Dad was the first in his family to go to university (he did Politics and Economics at the newly founded Open University) and from there he had good jobs and money, but he never kept wealth, we always had what we needed and the rest was given away freely. I am the first of his children to have a university education and I am the same with money also, I share it.

I still consider myself to be working class because I dont live in luxury (even though I have nice things, but mind you I have spent many years saving little bits to buy them when I've always had the money to buy them outright - but as I said, I give it away), I dont know, its difficult.


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## Polednice

samurai said:


> Could anyone explain to us Americans what *chip butties *are?


As Manxfeeder's picture shows, they are a true British delicacy!

I admit, they look repulsive, but they taste just dellllllicious!! You just get yourself some chips (Br. Eng. meaning 'fries'), some sauce, some bread, and put them all together!  Of course, for the true experience, you have to get the soft, greasy chips from a fish & chop shop.


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## Bix

Manxfeeder said:


> Looks, uh, delish.
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> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_butty


yeah - uhm - i make a nicer chip butty than that - with propper chippy chips for a start (like Polednice said)


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## Klavierspieler

Manxfeeder said:


> Looks, uh, delish.
> 
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> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_butty


Actually looks pretty good: French Fry Sandwich would be the approximate Americanised name for that.


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## Jupiter

I was born into the working class but now reside in the middle class.


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## Bix

Klavierspieler said:


> Actually looks pretty good: French Fry Sandwich would be the approximate Americanised name for that.


that sounds upper class - French Fry Sandwich  - or course the Saaantwich was invented in England also but NOT, I SAY AGAIN *NOT* Le French Fry


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## mamascarlatti

One of the nice things about moving halfway across the world to a blip in the Southern Pacific was getting away from all that discussion about class. Of course NZ has rich and poor (and the gap is widening) but it values egalitarianism.


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## Bix

mamascarlatti said:


> One of the nice things about moving halfway across the world to a blip in the Southern Pacific was getting away from all that discussion about class. Of course NZ has rich and poor (and the gap is widening) but it values egalitarianism.


the poverty gap is increasing here also - i live in the poorest part of the city even though im not poor per se and its just so evident; and im not even sure if the class system is the same here as it used to be anyway - it would be interesting to see what you thought if you came back for a short while. There is still very much the north south divide.


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## Jupiter

Klavierspieler said:


> Actually looks pretty good: French Fry Sandwich would be the approximate Americanised name for that.


A proper chip butty has HP sauce in it, not tomato sauce (or ketchup if you are North American).


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## samurai

Jupiter said:


> A proper chip butty has HP sauce in it, not tomato sauce (or ketchup if you are North American).


@ Jupiter, Does *HP *stand for hot pepper sauce or something else?


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## violadude

Jupiter said:


> A proper chip butty has HP sauce in it, not tomato sauce (or ketchup if you are North American).


HP sauce? what's that?


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## Kopachris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Sauce


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## mamascarlatti

Bix said:


> the poverty gap is increasing here also - i live in the poorest part of the city even though im not poor per se and its just so evident; and im not even sure if the class system is the same here as it used to be anyway - it would be interesting to see what you thought if you came back for a short while. There is still very much the north south divide.


Coming back next year - yes, it will be interesting.

Interesting that non-Brits are talking about money, but certainly when I lived in the UK 20 years ago class was not exactly equated with money, but rather family, background and accent. Has that changed?


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## samurai

@ KC, Thanks for the 411 link re: HP sauce. I think I'll take a paso on the whole chip butty deal anyway. Doesn't appeal to me in the slightest!


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## Sid James

Probably like NZ, Australia considers itself (or used to) a "classless society." I think that here the "working class" has vanished, absorbed into the broad "middle class." I don't really think it's a huge issue here, it's more the "gap" between those at the highest end & the rest. Just look at ever escalating house prices in our major cities & also the rising rents...


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## Argus

mamascarlatti said:


> Interesting that non-Brits are talking about money, but certainly when I lived in the UK 20 years ago class was not exactly equated with money, but rather family, background and accent. Has that changed?


Not much, class still seems to be more cultural in Britain. You can easily get people who would consider themselves working class who earn more than people in traditionally middle class jobs.

What sport a person likes is often a good indicator of class:

Upper class - equestrian sports 
Middle class - cricket, rugby union, tennis
Working class - football, rugby league

Also, what newspaper a person reads (although that's more political).

As Bix mentioned the North/South divide is still evident and muddies this a bit because Northern (including Welsh and Scottish) tastes are historically considered working class.


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## Xaltotun

I've had almost no income for a long time, so I'm certainly below working class, as far as money goes. But I self-identify as upper class because I've got high education and a lot of general knowledge about, well, everything. I've got a keen interest in science, arts, history and philosophy, as well as refined food & drinks. It's just that I can't afford anything... but I have no problem with that. Spotify is cheap, and public libraries exist


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## Andy Loochazee

There are several problems with this poll.

1. One problem is that it doesn't provide enough categories. The UK Government's statistics collecting department distinguished between more categories than are allowed for in this poll. The following were the socio-economic classification used in the UK's 2001 population Census:

i. Higher Professional and Managerial workers 
ii.	Lower Managerial and Professional workers 
iii.	Intermediate occupations 
iv.	Small Employers and non professional self-employed 
v. Lower Supervisory and technical 
vi. Semi Routine Occupations 
vii. Routine Occupations 
viii.	Long term unemployed

2. Another problem is that this forum seems to be overwhelmingly filled with students, who by definition can't answer this question reliably by virtue of their unemployed status. It would have been more appropriate to ask about the social background of their family home in the case of students. Some have answered it this way, but not all.

3. The "class system", proper, as understood in British circles probably won't mean much to people abroad. The "Chip Butty" example won't mean much to many foreigners, even when it's explained. It's all about things like long-term family status, how various family members have earned their living in the past, whether any past relatives may have reached the higher ranks in the Armed Forces, the way you speak, the schools you went to and where you sent your own children or where you might send them. Agreed that there has been a lot of blurring between the lower middle and working classes over the post WW2 period, but there is still a "healthy" upper middle class. 

Elaborating slightly on (3) above, one way to spot an upper middle class member from a working class from the way they speak. Those people who speak with that rising intonation, as if they're asking a question all the time, are more than likely the working class. The upper middle class don't speak like that, but generally are more refined, and even-toned. It's not just speech, but the places like where they do their weekly grocery shopping is another giveaway. The "Waitrose" supermarket chain is where you'll far more likely find the middle/upper middle classes, even though the produce costs more. It has a much smarter environment, the generally prettier girls at checkouts, more polite management, in contrast to the generally ugly old mingers you tend to find serving in the likes of the Asda supermarket, and the apparent army of single-parent mums seen shopping in these places, sometimes dragging along behind some useless-looking boyfriend, who's probably on benefits. These are mere examples, and I suspect they probably won't mean much to non-British members.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Andy Loochazee said:


> These are mere examples, and I suspect they probably won't mean much to non-British members.


And I suspect you haven't been around the world much either, outside of your British nest. Though things must be a lot safer on London streets these days to induce you to stay.


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## elgar's ghost

HP Sauce - a Great British Institution originally from Aston, Birmingham (like Black Sabbath, eh, Argus?). Sadly, the factory was shut down about four years ago or so and production moved to another country (this time to The Netherlands) but the Head Office remains in Hayes, Middlesex. I have to say I prefer ketchup on chip butties as well but prefer HP Sauce with a Mixed Grill.


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## mamascarlatti

Andy Loochazee said:


> There are several problems with this poll.
> 
> The "class system", proper, as understood in British circles probably won't mean much to people abroad. The "Chip Butty" example won't mean much to many foreigners, even when it's explained. It's all about things like long-term family status, how various family members have earned their living in the past, whether any past relatives may have reached the higher ranks in the Armed Forces, the way you speak, the schools you went to and where you sent your own children or where you might send them. Agreed that there has been a lot of blurring between the lower middle and working classes over the post WW2 period, but there is still a "healthy" upper middle class.
> 
> Elaborating slightly on (3) above, one way to spot an upper middle class member from a working class from the way they speak. Those people who speak with that rising intonation, as if they're asking a question all the time, are more than likely the working class. The upper middle class don't speak like that, but generally are more refined, and even-toned. It's not just speech, but the places like where they do their weekly grocery shopping is another giveaway. The "Waitrose" supermarket chain is where you'll far more likely find the middle/upper middle classes, even though the produce costs more. It has a much smarter environment, the generally prettier girls at checkouts, more polite management, in contrast to the generally ugly old mingers you tend to find serving in the likes of the Asda supermarket, and the apparent army of single-parent mums seen shopping in these places, sometimes dragging along behind some useless-looking boyfriend, who's probably on benefits. These are mere examples, and I suspect they probably won't mean much to non-British members.


Well that's answered my question. Open your mouth in the UK, and everybody knows what class you are. Just like the good old days.

Except me, now, I'd probably be classed as a "colonial":lol:. Last time I went back somebody asked me where I was from.


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## Argus

elgars ghost said:


> HP Sauce - a Great British Institution originally from Aston, Birmingham (like Black Sabbath, eh, Argus?). Sadly, the factory was shut down about four years ago or so and production moved to another country (this time to The Netherlands) but the Head Office remains in Hayes, Middlesex. I have to say I prefer ketchup on chip butties as well but prefer HP Sauce with a Mixed Grill.


Yes, I am a tomato sauce (not ketchup) and white bread man for chip butties. I haven't had one in a while because I've been trying to eat healthier. I also like crisp butties, which Americans would call chip sandwiches.

Andy Loochazee:

1. Real socio-economic class isn't what this thread is about, it's about where one feels they belong. 3 options makes this simpler.

2. Peoples backgrounds are the most crucial factor so students can judge of their parents easily enough.

3. Asda is quite high end compared to Lidl and Aldi, both of which stock some great produce. I have never stepped foot in a Waitrose, but that's probably because they are a southern based supermarket.

As far as accents, the less of one you have normally the more middle class you are. The more upper class you get, the more plummy and affected, the more working class, the broader and more unintelligible regional accents you get (partly due to heavy slang use).


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## haydnfan

Hilltroll72 said:


> Lower-lower middle, unless you live in the boonies. There, you would be a professional or a manager to get that salary, so you go up one class - only in local society, of course. I don't know that you would make any sort of middle class in NYC or LA with that salary. That's what I mean by regional effects.


No that's really wrong! The median household income is $50k, and median personal income is $30k. Just that would make him middle class, not "low, low middle class". What do you live in NYC!? The federal poverty line for a single individual is only $10k.

In fact he's probably just at the cusp of upper middle class, which is roughly $50k-$100k, with the upper class being >$100k.


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## Lenfer

Bix said:


> Chip butties or blind scouse for me - working class.
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> this is what my great grandfather did, he was the man who introduced Dad into classical music, socialist politics and on how to be a decent human being - great man


My great grandfather was also a coal miner, viva the proletariat! *Bix* :tiphat:


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## Ukko

haydnfan said:


> No that's really wrong! The median household income is $50k, and median personal income is $30k. Just that would make him middle class, not "low, low middle class". What do you live in NYC!? The federal poverty line for a single individual is only $10k.
> 
> In fact he's probably just at the cusp of upper middle class, which is roughly $50k-$100k, with the upper class being >$100k.


"The federal poverty line"? Jeez _haydnfan_, you have seriously damaged your credibility with that effusion.


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## science

I come from working class stock but I've been able to ascend to the middle class.


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## Sid James

It kind of sounds to me as if only (or mainly) the Brits are preoccupied with class (still haven't gotten over it?). I think that, in other parts of the world, what things boil down to is basically MONEY. Either you have lots of it, some of it, or almost none of it. This is basically the "guts" of the issue, not accents & stuff like that. Then of course, not many other countries have "traditions" like hunting foxes on horseback with all those uniforms and regalia, do they?...


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## Guest

Not being one of the idle rich and having worked all my life I must be working class


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## dmg

Lower-Middle.


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## science

To me, upper-class begins around $300k annually, certainly not much below that.

Someone making that money has to be flattered, but they're really still an outsider to power. The ruling class of our country are people with at least 8-digit incomes.


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## science

My wife and I are a double-income no-kids family, with a combined income well over $100k. We are definitely not upper-class. We live in Seoul. We rent an apartment, we have no car, no maid or anything like that. We haven't taken a vacation in two years, we never fly anything but economy. I believe we will never have enough money to have kids, but with luck on the markets we should be able to retire early.


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## Guest

I did not think class had anything to do with Salary it used to be what you were born into, if you are on a Salary you must be working class, I remember that the working class use to divide themselves into upper middle and lower. the good old English system of division.


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## science

The old aristocracy is all but dead, so we're all middle-class by the old standards. 

The new aristocracy is one of wealth. If you worry more about taxes than bills, or if someone else does your dishes, then you are upper-class.

Edit: I want to re-think this a little.


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## Guest

Things do change but very seldom for the better, if your dustman (working class) wins $20.000.000. he is still working class but rich, he would not know how to behave in upper class company, and visa verse if a toff looses all his money he is still upper class but broke, I realise this is perhaps not to days way of looking at it.


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## Sid James

So what are we talking about, social "class" or social conditioning / upbringing / milieu?...


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## Guest

Well I assume we are talking about the English class system which is hierarchical? but perhaps I have misunderstood the OP, but the only class system I know is the Brits


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## Andy Loochazee

mamascarlatti said:


> Interesting that non-Brits are talking about money, but certainly when I lived in the UK 20 years ago class was not exactly equated with money, but rather family, background and accent. Has that changed?


Quite right, it's not solely about income or how much money you have. There have been lots of irrelevant replies.

What I think Argus is really getting at is something that people who have little or knowledge of British society wouldn't appreciate, especially anyone brought up in places like the USA, Australia etc which are relatively classless compared with the kind of thing we used to have in Britain. I stress used to have, since quite a lot of the old-style class distinctions have blurred considerably over the post WW2 period.

Rather, it's all about family, background, employment, type of accommodation, accent. The classic image of a member of the various classes, as they used to exist, is something like:

*Upper Class*: owned a Bentley or Rolls Royce, had a country estate with servants, or a London home in a very posh suburb, or both; went to public school (that's a private school for you Yanks who don't know); for breakfast or rather "brekkers" they liked things that reminded them of the days of the British Raj in India, things like kedgeree followed by grilled kidneys; spoke with unmistakable clipped accents taught at public school, varying slightly according to school; "worked" running a farm or had a very senior position in a law firm, or merchant bank; had children with names like Horatio, Claud, Tabatha, Jemima; children call parents "daddy" or "mummy", however old the children may be.

*Middle Class*: Actually there were three main sections - upper, middle, lower - but all three had the following typical traits: a good education either in a public school for those who could afford it, at least a "Grammar" school education, some with higher education; professional job; always from a privately owned home; normally aspiring to become at laest one step higher in the social ladder; call midday meal "lunch"; evening meal either "supper" or "dinner"; generally felt superior in taste and lifyestyle to those in lower class; generally quite reserved and had a snooty attitude towards those in a class below them.

*Working Class*: again there was a higher, middle, lower tier; generally brought up on a Council estate (this is the name for local authority rented accommodation, not very elegant and often quite shabby) or low-end private rented; breadwinner usually involved in manual work of some description; normally call lunch "dinner" and dinner "tea"; wife usually worked as a part-time shop worker or aa cleaner (ie cleaning other people's homes); like chip butties, fish n' chips, lots of gravy smothered over everything; watch a lot of soap TV; swear a lot more than middle class with a distinctive vocabulary of swear words; children pass down clothes to younger members because of financial contraints; usually very friendly with a lot over-the-fence gossip; accents usually drop the "h" in words like "hotel", "naff orf" instead of "naff off". Children call their parents things like "t'old lass" (that's "the old lass" for you Yanks), or "me ol' man".


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## Almaviva

It's not that hard to get for us naive Yanks, Andy. Over here we call the top class of yours "old money" and for the others we follow similar lines. I wouldn't say our answers are irrelevant; they're just relevant to a different social context.


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## Taneyev

I'm a retired unemployed lawyer from lower middle class.


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## Andy Loochazee

Almaviva said:


> It's not that hard to get for us naive Yanks, Andy. Over here we call the top class of yours "old money" and for the others we follow similar lines. I wouldn't say our answers are irrelevant; they're just relevant to a different social context.


I never questioned your understanding of the situation, but there are several replies where money/income seems to have been the key issue. I daresay youv'e had a have a similar social structure in the USA in the past, but I suspect it's a lot older than the one that lingered on here in Britain, which was still very much alive some 20-30 years ago and still exists to some extent.

I wasn't suggesting that Yanks on this board are naive. If you look again, I was simply explaining the meaning of words and expressions that have a different interpretation in the USA. I have spent some time working in the USA, in fact two separate stints of roughly 2 years each. I found some very big cultural differences between the two countries, and a very poor understanding of modern Britain and our former Empire.


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## Almaviva

Andy Loochazee said:


> I never questioned your understanding of the situation, but there are several replies where money/income seems to have been the key issue. I daresay youv'e had a have a similar social structure in the USA in the past, but I suspect it's a lot older than the one that lingered on here in Britain, which was still very much alive some 20-30 years ago and still exists to some extent.
> 
> I wasn't suggesting that Yanks on this board are naive. If you look again, I was simply explaining the meaning of words and expressions that have a different interpretation in the USA. I have spent some time working in the USA, in fact two separate stints of roughly 2 years each. I found some very big cultural differences between the two countries, and a very poor understanding of modern Britain and our former Empire.


OK, cool.:tiphat:


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## Argus

Sid James said:


> It kind of sounds to me as if only (or mainly) the Brits are preoccupied with class (still haven't gotten over it?). I think that, in other parts of the world, what things boil down to is basically MONEY. Either you have lots of it, some of it, or almost none of it. This is basically the "guts" of the issue, not accents & stuff like that. Then of course, not many other countries have "traditions" like hunting foxes on horseback with all those uniforms and regalia, do they?...


It's not really the money, but more how, when and where you got the money.

America may not have as much of a class divide but it historically has more of a race/religion divide that's still quite evident. To a lesser extent, this applies to other former colonies.



science said:


> I come from working class stock but I've been able to ascend to the middle class.


Class traitor! Never forget your roots.


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## science

I'm not going to do more for my roots than they did for me!


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## Argus

science said:


> I'm not going to do more for my roots than they did for me!


You can't escape your past. When the revolution comes we'll see where your allegiances lie.


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## science

My allegiance, on the whole, is with my investments! No more ideological nonsense for me. I got fed enough of that crap in church.


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## Argus

science said:


> My allegiance, on the whole, is with my investments! No more ideological nonsense for me. I got fed enough of that crap in church.


You're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem.


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## Ludders

Working class.
Socialist/Old Labour. (for the benefit of fellow UK people)


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## science

Argus said:


> You're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem.


Well, figure me on the problem side then. I believe in capitalism.

Really, I believe in capitalism much more strongly than most people. I don't believe in it for any patriotic reason or any nonsense like that - I believe capitalism is just about the best thing ever to happen to humanity.


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## waldvogel

My family's history mirrors that of the twentieth century. My Canadian grandfather started as a farmhand, working for his room and board. He became a part of Henry Ford's workforce when they starting making Model T's in Canada. My English grandfather was solidly working class from Birmingham, back when it was the workshop of the world.

My father also worked at Ford, and moved into a middle-class income as his wages and benefits increased over the years. This lifestyle is on its last legs now - there are very few high-paying manufacturing jobs left in Canada. In fact, young people with only a secondary school education now need to get into fields like construction or technical trades to avoid having jobs that have been outsourced, and avoid low-paying McJobs. 

I became the first member of my family to complete university, and moved into the middle classes through both income and profession. I don't have a lot of the typical middle-class values, though. I like to travel rather than to spend huge amounts of money on home improvement. I love live music and theatre rather than playing golf and skiing. I'd much rather spend a week in a rainforest lodge watching birds than the same week in some luxo-hotel in Cancun getting sloshed and sunburned. 

So I have a working-class background, a middle-class income, and upper-class tastes. My bank account would be much healthier if the previous sentence was reversed.


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## Guest

science said:


> Well, figure me on the problem side then. I believe in capitalism.
> 
> Really, I believe in capitalism much more strongly than most people. I don't believe in it for any patriotic reason or any nonsense like that - I believe capitalism is just about the best thing ever to happen to humanity.


Does that mean you believe that the "Market" is also the best thing for mankind?


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## science

Andante said:


> Does that mean you believe that the "Market" is also the best thing for mankind?


Hmmm. It seems like a loaded question. I believe the market is, on the whole, a very good thing.

Without it we would not have representative government (no power to resist landed aristocracies), relatively free presses (the ruling class would have no interest in allowing it), science (no funds and no free press) or technology (no funds). If you are of European descent, you can assume you wouldn't have religious freedom (no interest from the ruling class in it).

Our wonderful, historically unprecedented and unimaginable standards of living, life expectancies, and so on would not be possible without this cluster of institutions, of which the market is a very important part.

So if you ever get to meet an Italian or Dutch banker of the early modern period, offer them a big thanks!


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## science

Incidentally, I'm not sure of this of course, but it is possible that large-scale warfare between inevitably opposed states is a crucial institution in the mix there too. Now that nuclear weaponry has rendered such war impossible, it may be that the interest of the ruling class is shifting in a way that will be bad for representative government and freedom of the press. The China model might be the way of the future. 

But maybe not. Maybe just the need of investors to have reliable information and new technology will be sufficient to force governments to allow free media to exist.


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## Guest

science said:


> Hmmm. It seems like a loaded question. I believe the market is, on the whole, a very good thing.


It is a bit of a loaded question as in my country 27 years ago the "Market" was embraced it was called [The " " " " experiment] and it was a disaster from which we still have not recovered, all state assets were sold mostly to overseas companies, Farmers had subsidies removed just about over night, unionism was made voluntary but employers made it known they would not co operate with them and wage bargaining and contracts became the norm, sure there were so called benefits for a while I.e. competition forced prices down until a monopoly came into existence and price fixing was also common which put the prices back up again and then some. Banks would not extend overdrafts (unlike to day where they are bending over backwards to get you into their debt) and a lot of good businesses could not change quickly enough and went to the wall. I could go on but it would become boring. So to sum up: The Market looks after itself "it has to that why it is there" amen


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## science

Andante said:


> It is a bit of a loaded question as in my country 27 years ago the "Market" was embraced it was called [The " " " " experiment] and it was a disaster from which we still have not recovered, all state assets were sold mostly to overseas companies, Farmers had subsidies removed just about over night, unionism was made voluntary but employers made it known they would not co operate with them and wage bargaining and contracts became the norm, sure there were so called benefits for a while I.e. competition forced prices down until a monopoly came into existence and price fixing was also common which put the prices back up again and then some. Banks would not extend overdrafts (unlike to day where they are bending over backwards to get you into their debt) and a lot of good businesses could not change quickly enough and went to the wall. I could go on but it would become boring. So to sum up: The Market looks after itself "it has to that why it is there" amen


The worldview that could be called "market fundamentalism" really does not take into account the degree to which the market depends on governmental institutions.

What is really going on there (in my opinion) is 1) an overreaction against communism, 2) some well-connected people finding ways to make money that they didn't expect to turn out so badly, 3) an honest attempt to respond to the confusing economic problems of the 1970s, and 4) revolutions in information and transportation technology enabling multinational corporations to make decisions that were good for them (and good for many people in the 3rd world) but bad for workers in the developed world.

The current round of economic crises must eventually lead either to a regained appreciation for the necessity of skillful regulation, or to the end of freedom. I _think_ it'll turn out ok....


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## starthrower

science said:


> Well, figure me on the problem side then. I believe in capitalism.
> 
> Really, I believe in capitalism much more strongly than most people. I don't believe in it for any patriotic reason or any nonsense like that - I believe capitalism is just about the best thing ever to happen to humanity.


Considering the condition of much of humanity, your beliefs are in denial of reality.


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## science

starthrower said:


> Considering the condition of much of humanity, your beliefs are in denial of reality.


Humanity has never had it better.

Your beliefs are in denial of history.


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## Jobe

Father (R.I.P) had an office job, and my mother no longer works.

Being 17, I have to reflect on my family, but I'm apprehensive to say working class because my family literally do not work.

Wanna-be middle class?


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## starthrower

science said:


> Humanity has never had it better.
> 
> Your beliefs are in denial of history.


If you want to compare bad to worse, you can make anything look good.


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## science

starthrower said:


> If you want to compare bad to worse, you can make anything look good.


Well, if that's how you want to look at it, I can't disagree.


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## Argus

science said:


> Well, figure me on the problem side then. I believe in capitalism.


That's irrelevant. This is about culture, not economics.

I was more in objection of your use of the term 'ascending to the middle class'. This suggests the working class are lower than the middle class. Economically true, but like I said, this thread isn't about money.


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## science

Well, that's rather a different POV than I was taking. I didn't mean to imply legal or moral inequality or anything. Anyway, then you should object to the whole terminology of "upper" "middle" and "lower."


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## starthrower

Chris said:


> As I understand it 'middle class' in US covers pretty well everyone who works.


This is not accurate. There are millions of working poor in the US. Middle class used to mean you could afford to have a family and own a home. Now most working people can't even afford a car, much less a house. Of course most new automobiles now cost more than a house did in the 1960s, not to mention wages haven't kept up with inflation since the 70s.


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## Argus

science said:


> Anyway, then you should object to the whole terminology of "upper" "middle" and "lower."


They are a bit less loaded than 'bourgeoisie' and 'proletariat', and much less occupationally specific than 'white collar' and 'blue collar', which doesn't have much to do with this thread. All other terms I could think of were even more derogatory, 'toffs', 'peasants', 'plebs', 'Daily Mail-readers' etc.


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## Guest

Argus said:


> That's irrelevant. This is about culture, not economics.
> 
> I was more in objection of your use of the term 'ascending to the middle class'. This suggests the working class are lower than the middle class. Economically true, but like I said, this thread isn't about money.


I agree with you but some posters have the idea that it is money, you are born into a class your subsequent education in school and life will not move you overnight into a higher class neither will money, and what is wrong with being working class?


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## Aramis

I'm in a class of my own.


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## Polednice

Aramis said:


> I'm in a class of my own.


Is it called Group Therapy?


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## Aramis

Polednice said:


> Is it called Group Therapy?


You can call it Stanley.


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## Sid James

To talk to what member Andante was saying re NZ earlier - yes, I've read/heard about your country's "experiment" which went pear-shaped. I think it was Prime Minister Muldoon? Anyway, your mistakes were noted here across the ditch in Australia, we were prevented from going "all the way" with "economic rationalism" as you did...


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## Guest

Sid James said:


> To talk to what member Andante was saying re NZ earlier - yes, I've read/heard about your country's "experiment" which went pear-shaped. I think it was Prime Minister Muldoon? Anyway, your mistakes were noted here across the ditch in Australia, we were prevented from going "all the way" with "economic rationalism" as you did...


A slight correction if I may Sid, The Muldoon government was "National" a right of centre party and he did a lot of good things but got bad press, it was the 1984 Labour Government of David Lange that did the damage a Pig Farmer by the name of Roger Douglas was made finance minister and the changes were brought in very quickly all the more ironic for a Labour Party, your system of government seems to keep tighter control of these radical ideologies, our present government is hell bent on selling what state assets are left but add a sweetener that they will keep 51% of shares, but that still means that 49% of profits will go overseas, IMO madness


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## jhar26

Argus said:


> Not much, class still seems to be more cultural in Britain. You can easily get people who would consider themselves working class who earn more than people in traditionally middle class jobs.
> 
> What sport a person likes is often a good indicator of class:
> 
> Upper class - equestrian sports
> Middle class - cricket, rugby union, tennis
> Working class - football, rugby league


I don't know. I like most sports to some degree, but I especially love tennis and boxing. I love classical, but also jazz and pop/rock. So I guess my interests are not related to class at all.


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## Sid James

Andante said:


> A slight correction if I may Sid, The Muldoon government was "National" a right of centre party and he did a lot of good things but got bad press, it was the 1984 Labour Government of David Lange that did the damage a Pig Farmer by the name of Roger Douglas was made finance minister and the changes were brought in very quickly all the more ironic for a Labour Party, your system of government seems to keep tighter control of these radical ideologies, our present government is hell bent on selling what state assets are left but add a sweetener that they will keep 51% of shares, but that still means that 49% of profits will go overseas, IMO madness


Thanks for the correction. Yes, Lange's name rings a bell. We also did things here, but not so extreme - eg. selling/privatising Australian Telecom (now called Telstra). But opening up the telecommunications market here & ending Telstra's monopoly was probably a good thing (although maybe had little to do with privatising it?). It is ironic that your Labour Party has done this. But then again, Labor here has crept towards the "right" more and more in the last few decades. & the Liberal (our conservative) party has kind of done the same (people who were around in the late 1970's, early 1980's, remember Liberal PM Malcolm Fraser as quite moderate compared to the last Liberal PM we had, John Howard (indeed, Fraser is on record as criticising Howard for various reasons, another irony since Howard was Treasurer when Fraser was PM). & in NSW, the former Labor state government privatised (I'm not sure to what extent) electricity. In any case, electricity bills have skyrocketed.

Oh my, yes, it's all about ideology. Seems like both Labor & Liberal have moved towards the right more than they were before & it's the Greens who are the party here nearest to the "middle" than they are, on some issues at least. Maybe the Labor & Liberals should merge, since they're pretty much the same on many things, & the Greens should be the centre-left party that Labor once was?...


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## science

It's amazing how different it is if you're looking through one end of the telescope vs. the other end.

I changed families when I was 8 years old; until then I'd lived in a trailer house with a family that never owned a new car. Then I moved in with a family that lived in a _double-wide_ trailer and bought low-end new cars occasionally. Stepping into their house for the first time, seeing the ceiling fan above the matching naughahyde sofa, loveseat and chair, all pointed at a fairly large TV, literally my first thought was, "Yes! We've landed with rich people!"

If my 8-year-old self saw the house I live in now, I think it'd blow his mind. But... since I don't have (say) a colonial Georgian mansion with an acre of grass, I don't call myself rich.


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## Air

I belong to what many would call the American upper middle class, but compared to those in the lands my parents come from (Jiangsu and Hunan in China) and in even poorer regions of the world, I think it would be unfair to label myself as anything but upper class.

Don't get me wrong. I own a Honda, my parents do too. There's nothing upper class about that, definitely. But I think the word "upper class" has become almost obsolete in American society, it's something to be afraid of for many people. In almost all rich suburban towns, including the one I come from, the identification seems to be mostly with the "upper middle class" rather than the "upper class". The idea of an upper class seems to go against the ideals of American capitalism and democracy itself. And because of this, we often forget how fortunate we really are.

So I think it's good to sometimes rebel against this deluded hierarchy and take a more statistical approach on things. And statistically, around the world, many of us are indeed in the most fortunate sliver of the populace, whether we admit it or not. It doesn't take a gentry or large landowner to put these things into perspective.

Of course, on my own, I'm really part of the working class. But it's really a false identification, because the truth is I always have my family to depend on - and they are the ones who have determined all through my childhood which culture I most identify with.


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## Sid James

I agree with what Air says above. With the various developments in "Western" societies, many of the negative & rigid aspects of "class" that were prevalent in the past have lessened (some would say disappeared, but I wouldn't go that far myself). There are more opportunities for people in the "West" than ever before. But the "dark side" or "underbelly" of this is that this is not true in many less developed or developing countries. Who ever talks about, for example, of the 30 year war that has engulfed the eastern part of Congo (formerly named Zaire under President Mobutu)? The situation in Europe was basically the same, there was a 30 year war in North-Western Europe (1618-48) which basically devastated everything. Most people were lucky to get by and survive, let alone prosper. Even closer to our own times, it was thought by many in Europe after the Second World War (even Churchill, I believe) that the continent would not recover from that catastrophe in decades. So there you go, many people in less developed or developing countries still face similar hardships, and even horrors, that people in (now) developed "Western" countries faced long ago (& in places like the republics of the former Yugoslavia or in Chechnya, the "recovery" process continues)...


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## Guest

A plague on all their houses eh Sid


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## Sid James

Andante said:


> A plague on all their houses eh Sid


:lol:

Which reminds me, Dr Brendan Nelson said in his younger years - & was filmed - "I'll never vote Liberal." Then he joined the Liberal Party and became it's leader for a time in opposition. So, "never say never again"  ...


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## Lenfer

Air said:


> I belong to what many would call the American upper middle class, but compared to those in the lands my parents come from (Jiangsu and Hunan in China) and in even poorer regions of the world, I think it would be unfair to label myself as anything but upper class.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I own a Honda, my parents do too. There's nothing upper class about that, definitely. But I think the word "upper class" has become almost obsolete in American society, it's something to be afraid of for many people. In almost all rich suburban towns, including the one I come from, the identification seems to be mostly with the "upper middle class" rather than the "upper class". The idea of an upper class seems to go against the ideals of American capitalism and democracy itself. And because of this, we often forget how fortunate we really are.
> 
> So I think it's good to sometimes rebel against this deluded hierarchy and take a more statistical approach on things. And statistically, around the world, many of us are indeed in the most fortunate sliver of the populace, whether we admit it or not. It doesn't take a gentry or large landowner to put these things into perspective.
> 
> Of course, on my own, I'm really part of the working class. But it's really a false identification, because the truth is I always have my family to depend on - and they are the ones who have determined all through my childhood which culture I most identify with.


The way I've always understood it the upper class is made up of the aristocracy. Anyone without "aristocratic" blood in their veins at best could only ever be "upper middle class". I've been to *America * many times and in my opinion it is perhaps the most aristocratic society in the western world. If you have money in *America * then there is nothing you can't get. Apon our arrival at a apartment complex (not that far from where "*DSK *" was staying actually) I was greeted by a valet who was wearing white gloves, he took my suitcases up to our room and then :tiphat: tipped his cap. There was something very old *Europe* about it.

I must stress that it was not me who was paying for any of this it was my best friend. We had gone to *New York* to see an art exhibition. A few days later we went to the ballet before comming home, it was very upper class to my eyes.

Although I do not disagree with most of what you've said *Air*, your post is very insightful.

Yours,

L'enfer :tiphat:


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

God knows..................


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