# Favourite Recent Siegfried



## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Looking at singers post-2000s. Who would you rather hear?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I don't know Christian Franz, perhaps I will look him up on YouTube.

N.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

The Conte said:


> I don't know Christian Franz, perhaps I will look him up on YouTube.


You might regret that....

For me, it's a choice between Schager and O'Neill. Schager has the stronger voice, but O'Neill is somewhat more musical. I ended up picking Schager largely because I've heard him in the flesh.

Vinke is tolerable. The other three are unlistenable. I'm surprised not to see Jay Hunter Morris on the list - he sang the role at the Met fairly recently. He looked great, sang like Nemorino.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> You might regret that....
> 
> For me, it's a choice between Schager and O'Neill. Schager has the stronger voice, but O'Neill is somewhat more musical. I ended up picking Schager largely because I've heard him in the flesh.
> 
> Vinke is tolerable. The other three are unlistenable. I'm surprised not to see Jay Hunter Morris on the list - he sang the role at the Met fairly recently. He looked great, sang like Nemorino.


Ok, I'll trust your word. Lance Ryan looked the part at La Scala, but got tired quickly in Gotterdamerung. Vinke is ok. I haven't heard O'Neill, but I find his voice really unpleasant.

N.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I heard Schager live as Siegfried in Hamburg and he's left more of an impression on me than any singer I've heard thus far. Absolutely tireless, big ringing voice, boundless energy on stage, and seemingly fresh as a daisy until the last note. The only other singer on the list that I've heard live is Gould and I much preferred Schager.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

wkasimer said:


> You might regret that....
> 
> Jay Hunter Morris... looked great, sang like Nemorino.


I think you meant The Evangelist... :lol:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I think what we have here is Hobson’s Choice. :lol: I would travel a long way to avoid any of the choices. If held at gun point I would pick Schager. If the only choice was Ryan then I would ask for the trigger to be pulled!


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Hobson's Choice, maybe, but sadly the reality. Andreas Schager sounds like a lyric tenor to me.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

When people lament the absence of Siegfrieds remember Culshaw in Ring Resounding said at the time of Decca’s Ring ‘The casting of Siegfried was the bane of opera houses in Europe because there was only one Siegfried - Wolfgang Windgassen.’ So six appeared riches indeed!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Yeah, I agree. But what in the name of fun does that make the others?


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

I know I could have included Jay Hunter Morris, but I just can't do it.

Christian Franz has a basically attractive voice, with a bit more weight, and he sings with an understanding of the words...but he tends to shout, get quite nasal (not like Lance Ryan who is nasal 100% of the time) and croon. But at least he's engaged.

Simon O'Neill probably has the most attractive voice, and he has the stamina for the role. But he doesn't really know the text, and there are some quite glaring mistakes on both his recordings!

Stephen Gould is dependable but, like Robert Dean Smith, he has absolutely no timbral appeal whatsoever. They both sound oafish to me, I can't find a better word.

Stefan Vinke is even more unattractive, and Lance Ryan is unspeakable.

My two cents!


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

I say, bring back Reiner Goldberg!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I had the dubious “pleasure” of sitting through Barenboim’s 2013 cycle in Berlin with the execrable Lance “the yodeller” Ryan as two thirds of the Siegfried Siegfried (he failed to turn up for act 1. Schager sang the part from the wings while someone mimed the part on stage!) and all of the Götterdämmerung Siegfried. I still shudder at the memory. Yeugh!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> I had the dubious "pleasure" of sitting through Barenboim's 2013 cycle in Berlin with the execrable Lance "the yodeller" Ryan as two thirds of the Siegfried Siegfried (he failed to turn up for act 1. Schager sang the part from the wings while someone mimed the part on stage!) and all of the Götterdämmerung Siegfried. I still shudder at the memory. Yeugh!


You went all the way to Berlin and still couldn't avoid it? :lol:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Oh no. You misunderstood me. The cycle was fabulous apart from Ryan. I thought I was being sarcastic with regard to the merits of Mr. Ryan’s vocal capabilities.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Ulfilas said:


> Hobson's Choice, maybe, but sadly the reality. Andreas Schager sounds like a lyric tenor to me.


Well, he certainly didn't sound like one at the Met last year.


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

wkasimer said:


> Well, he certainly didn't sound like one at the Met last year.


It wasn't an insult. I would say the same about Rene Kollo or Siegfried Jerusalem. Interestingly all three started out singing operetta.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Ulfilas said:


> It wasn't an insult. I would say the same about Rene Kollo or Siegfried Jerusalem. Interestingly all three started out singing operetta.


So which Siegfrieds **don't** sound like lyric tenors?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The fact is that hardly anyone has ever been able to sing this role. Perhaps only Melchior. When Wagner wrote it he imagined a super youth but forgot he had only a mortal tenor to sing it


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

I think for a brief moment, Reiner Goldberg really did sound like the real thing:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Ulfilas said:


> I think for a brief moment, Reiner Goldberg really did sound like the real thing:


Solti said he thought so too but then discovered he couldn't master text


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Well, here's what Goldberg had to say about that (in German sorry):

"Meine ersten Kontakte mit Bayreuth waren 1981 das Vorsingen bei Georg Solti für den Siegfried im 1983 geplanten Ring. Auch Wolfgang Wagner war anwesend und Solti kam auf die Bühne und fragte: „Wollen Sie mein Siegfried sein?“ Er liebte meine Stimme und hat auch später noch gesagt: „Der Goldberg hat mir Proben gesungen, da ist mir das Herz aufgegangen.“ Die Rolle funktionierte musikalisch sehr gut. Schwierig war es mit Peter Hall, dessen Regieanweisungen ich wegen der Sprachbarriere oft nicht so schnell umsetzen konnte, wie er sich das wünschte. Hinzu kam, dass das Bühnenbild für den Siegfried durch einen Wasserteich sehr ungünstig war und ich darin während der Proben öfter ausgerutscht bin. Stimmlich war bis zur Hauptprobe alles in Ordnung. Den Siegfried hatte ich mir auch mit Soltis Hilfe so gut erarbeitet, dass ich fest überzeugt war, der Herausforderung des Rollendebuts in Bayreuth gewachsen zu sein. Leider bekam ich aber, wie auch in anderen wichtigen Momenten meiner Karriere, eine Halsentzündung und wurde in der Generalprobe heiser. So musste ich den dritten und vierten Akt der Generalprobe heiser durchsingen. Das hat bei Wolfgang Wagner und Solti zu so großer Nervosität geführt, dass sie mich hinauswarfen, obwohl ich bis zur Premiere wieder fit gewesen wäre und ihnen das auch gesagt habe. Über diesem Bayreuther Ring 1983 lag nun in vielerlei Hinsicht ein Fluch. Die Effekte, die sich Peter Hall ausgedacht hatte, funktionierten oder wirkten nicht. Solti ist erheblich mit den Musikern bei den Proben aneinander geraten."


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

In brief, he says he was ready to sing it, and Solti had prepared him well, but there were communication problems with Peter Hall, who spoke no German.

Then Goldberg claims that in the dress rehearsal he lost his voice, which made both Solti and Wolfgang Wagner nervous, but that he could have actually gone on for opening night.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Ulfilas said:


> Hobson's Choice, maybe, but sadly the reality. Andreas Schager sounds like a lyric tenor to me.


You heard him live and thought that?


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Yes, as Tristan with Gatti in Rome.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Ulfilas said:


> In brief, he says he was ready to sing it, and Solti had prepared him well, but there were communication problems with Peter Hall, who spoke no German.
> 
> Then Goldberg claims that in the dress rehearsal he lost his voice, which made both Solti and Wolfgang Wagner nervous, but that he could have actually gone on for opening night.


Interesting that Solti said the opposite. That it was Goldberg who had nerves as he couldn't master the notes and text. If you read the book about the Bayreuth performances of the year it confirms it. He says Goldberg was in a sweat. Interesting that Solti admired his voice but none f the reviews of his singing thought much of it


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Interesting that Solti said the opposite. That it was Goldberg who had nerves as he couldn't master the notes and text. If you read the book about the Bayreuth performances of the year it confirms it. He says Goldberg was in a sweat. Interesting that Solti admired his voice but none f the reviews of his singing thought much of it


DavidA. Is the book you are referring to "The Ring; Anatomy of an Opera"?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> DavidA. Is the book you are referring to "The Ring; Anatomy of an Opera"?


Try this link

https://www.thewagnerblog.com/2017/11/02/preparing-the-1983-hallsolti-ring-at-bayreuth/

Yes

Superb pictures


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Try this link
> 
> https://www.thewagnerblog.com/2017/11/02/preparing-the-1983-hallsolti-ring-at-bayreuth/
> 
> ...


There's a copy on Amazon for a about £6 inc postage. I may get it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> There's a copy on Amazon for a about £6 inc postage. I may get it.


I had it at the library many years ago. It's a very good read and the pictures are stunning. Solti said that what should've been the greatest experience in his life turned out to be the most trying. One problem was that the technicians came from Eastern Europe and didn't understand German let alone English. So there were all sorts of technical problems with Hall's rather complicated production. The other problem was with Goldberg in Siegfried. It was apparently pretty awful. Of course Solti gave up after the first year. Decca had been due to release the thing but with it was such a shambles they didn't


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Interesting that Solti said the opposite. That it was Goldberg who had nerves as he couldn't master the notes and text. If you read the book about the Bayreuth performances of the year it confirms it. He says Goldberg was in a sweat. Interesting that Solti admired his voice but none f the reviews of his singing thought much of it


Musician friends of mine say that Solti always blamed someone else! It was always someone else's fault! They loved watching videos of Solti rehearsing famous musicians (one favourite was a piano concerto with Perehia) and then they would analyse the parts of the score Solti got wrong and howl with laughter when he inevitably tried to explain it away as the singer or soloists fault.

That's why the day Solti died one of the horn players at the ROH rang up his agent three times to ask if the rumours about him passing were true. On the third call the person answering the phone said haven't you already rung today, he replied, "yes, but I want to hear you confirm that he has died again!"

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Musician friends of mine say that Solti always blamed someone else! It was always someone else's fault! They loved watching videos of Solti rehearsing famous musicians (one favourite was a piano concerto with Perehia) and then they would analyse the parts of the score Solti got wrong and howl with laughter when he inevitably tried to explain it away as the singer or soloists fault.
> 
> That's why the day Solti died one of the horn players at the ROH rang up his agent three times to ask if the rumours about him passing were true. On the third call the person answering the phone said haven't you already rung today, he replied, "yes, but I want to hear you confirm that he has died again!"
> 
> N.


Solti certainly wasn't alone in that among conductors. But you need to read what happened


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

I do have trouble believing it was all Goldberg's fault, considering he sang some pretty challenging roles, and he had no trouble performing Siegfried live in 1985...


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

It wasn't an Ernst Kozub situation.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Ulfilas said:


> It wasn't an Ernst Kozub situation.


How do you know? Were you there?


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Ulfilas said:


> I do have trouble believing it was all Goldberg's fault, considering he sang some pretty challenging roles, and he had no trouble performing Siegfried live in 1985...


As I said, I have trouble believing it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Ulfilas said:


> As I said, I have trouble believing it.


You read the book?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> The fact is that hardly anyone has ever been able to sing this role. Perhaps only Melchior.


That's a ridiculously reductionist and ahistorical view. The reality is that Melchior had many predecessors quite capable of singing the role - to name just a few, Ernst Kraus, Karel Burian, Jacques Urlus, Paul Franz, and Ivan Ershov. Although we have no adequate way to judge Max Alvary and Jean de Reszke, I've not read any review suggesting that either was deficient in the role. 
And while they may not have quite the voice that Melchior possessed, there's nothing wrong with a couple of his successors, Alberto Remedios and Jean Cox.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> That's a ridiculously reductionist and ahistorical view. The reality is that Melchior had many predecessors quite capable of singing the role - to name just a few, Ernst Kraus, Karel Burian, Jacques Urlus, Paul Franz, and Ivan Ershov. Although we have no adequate way to judge Max Alvary and Jean de Reszke, I've not read any review suggesting that either was deficient in the role.
> And while they may not have quite the voice that Melchior possessed, there's nothing wrong with a couple of his successors, Alberto Remedios and Jean Cox.


Every generation I have ever read has always had the same moan - there is no-one to sing Siegfried (apart from Melchior). Just going by what people have said. Even Windgassen was not up to the job in the eyes of many, including Culshaw initially.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Every generation I have ever read has always had the same moan - there is no-one to sing Siegfried (apart from Melchior). Just going by what people have said. Even Windgassen was not up to the job in the eyes of many, including Culshaw initially.


Windgassen was a natural wonder in every way. Quite unbelievable what Wagnerian career he had with his still relatively lyric voice (on the scale of heldentenors). Just shows what artistic and technical intelligence can be worth.

Melchior certainly set the bar very high but I think that saying there's no one to sing Siegfried because no one sounds like Melchior is almost the same as saying that there is no one to sing Radamès because no one sounds like Caruso. As wkasimer wrote earlier, there were great heldentenors before (and after) Melchior as well. If you listen to Urlus sing the Prieslied then you get a taste of his thoroughly musical singing and his beautiful heldentenor voice. He was a highly praised heldentenor of his era.

Wagner, in fact, didn't probably expect only over-the-top voices to sing his operas. Based on what I've read, Bayreuth was designed to be a rather singer-friendly venue and Wagner's admiration of Battistini and the whole Italian _bel canto_ tradition hints that the understanding that only a heldentenor with a voice like Melchior's can sing Siegfried might not be entirely true. It's been proposed that Wagner noticed the difficulty of his tenor roles himself as well and that's why he levelled down the difficulty of Parsifal (although not that of Kundry).


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Every generation I have ever read has always had the same moan - there is no-one to sing Siegfried (apart from Melchior).


Actually, early reviews of Melchior in NY were not particularly positive. One review I've read suggested that Melchior was symptomatic of a decline in Wagnerian vocalism.



> Just going by what people have said.


I believe that this is known as "received wisdom". I prefer to trust my own ears.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> Actually, early reviews of Melchior in NY were not particularly positive. One review I've read suggested that Melchior was symptomatic of a decline in Wagnerian vocalism.
> 
> *I believe that this is known as "received wisdom". I prefer to trust my own ears*.


Absolutely! :lol:

But of course to every generation of critics the previous generation of singers was always better. Was when I was a lad 60 years ago.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> One review I've read suggested that Melchior was symptomatic of a decline in Wagnerian vocalism.


Well that's surprising! Where can I find the review? What was the reasoning of this accusation?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

adriesba said:


> Well that's surprising! Where can I find the review? What was the reasoning of this accusation?


I'll try to dig it up; I think that I read it in Kolodin's book about the history of the Met.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I know John Culshaw was critical of Malchoir in that although he admired the voice he felt that Melchior was not too particular over note values and rhythms. Solti in his autobiography reckons that Melchior wasn't that musical despite having a magnificent instrument. He says that he used to sing the Wintersturm from Walkure in 10/8 rather than the 9/8 it is written in.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I know John Culshaw was critical of Malchoir in that although he admired the voice he felt that Melchior was not too particular over note values and rhythms. Solti in his autobiography reckons that Melchior wasn't that musical despite having a magnificent instrument. He says that he used to sing the Wintersturm from Walkure in 10/8 rather than the 9/8 it is written in.


Without meaning to you have backed up my point above. Whilst there is a germ of truth in that Solti judgment (Melchior isn't always tasteful when straying from the exact rhythm), had Solti not heard of rubato? How embarrassing for him!

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Without meaning to you have backed up my point above. Whilst there is a germ of truth in that Solti judgment (Melchior isn't always tasteful when straying from the exact rhythm), had Solti not heard of rubato? How embarrassing for him!
> 
> N.


Solti makes the point in his autobiography that he heard Melchior sing it in 10/8 on a recording and years later in a charity concert with piano accompaniment he still sang it in 10/8. But what has rubato got to do with it anyway?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Solti makes the point in his autobiography that he heard Melchior sing it in 10/8 on a recording and years later in a charity concert with piano accompaniment he still sang it in 10/8. But what has rubato got to do with it anyway?


To someone with a strict metronomic timing rubato could seem like adding an extra beat to a bar.

N.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

wkasimer said:


> I'll try to dig it up; I think that I read it in Kolodin's book about the history of the Met.


It's in Kolodin's THE METROPOLITAN OPERA, p. 331:

'Siegmund came along on February 20 [1926], but it was no notable success, [W.J.] Henderson describing Melchior's performance, with Larsen-Todsen, Easton, and Schorr, as belonging "to a day of small things, daily becoming smaller"'.

A few weeks later, after hearing a recital, Henderson wrote "the song recital is Mr. Melchior's real field".


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> It's in Kolodin's THE METROPOLITAN OPERA, p. 331:
> 
> 'Siegmund came along on February 20 [1926], but it was no notable success, [W.J.] Henderson describing Melchior's performance, with Larsen-Todsen, Easton, and Schorr, as belonging "to a day of small things, daily becoming smaller"'.
> 
> A few weeks later, after hearing a recital, Henderson wrote "the song recital is Mr. Melchior's real field".


Thanks for finding it! 

So he was saying Melchior's voice was small?


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

adriesba said:


> Thanks for finding it!
> 
> So he was saying Melchior's voice was small?


I'd love to put him in a time machine and take him to hear Lance Ryan.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Solti makes the point in his autobiography that he heard Melchior sing it in 10/8 on a recording and years later in a charity concert with piano accompaniment he still sang it in 10/8. But what has rubato got to do with it anyway?


There are numerous recordings of Melchior singing "Wintersturme." None of them are in 10/8. HIs recordings suggest that his main fault was getting ahead of the beat. It's at least a more invigorating fault than getting behind it.

Melchior was neither stupid nor a poor musician. I suspect that Solti was allowing himself a bit of poetic license.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> To someone with a strict metronomic timing rubato could seem like adding an extra beat to a bar.
> 
> N.


So you feel you know more than a professional conductor?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> It's in Kolodin's THE METROPOLITAN OPERA, p. 331:
> 
> 'Siegmund came along on February 20 [1926], but it was no notable success, [W.J.] Henderson describing Melchior's performance, with Larsen-Todsen, Easton, and Schorr, as belonging "to a day of small things, daily becoming smaller"'.
> 
> A few weeks later, after hearing a recital, Henderson wrote "the song recital is Mr. Melchior's real field".


People always like to imagine the past was better - even with a Melchior! :lol:


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

DavidA said:


> So you feel you know more than a professional conductor?


Whatever Melchior did, he got ahead rather than behind as Woodduck said above. It's not that unusual habit - Windgassen and his infamous forging songs are just another example of a highly musical singer who struggled with keeping the tempo.

Melchior's voice and technique were absolutely spectacular. It was an intrinsically heroic voice and if you listen to it, there certainly was an interpretation behind it.

From this 



 to hitting high Cs.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

annaw said:


> Whatever Melchior did, he got ahead rather than behind as Woodduck said above. It's not that unusual habit - Windgassen and his infamous forging songs are just another example of a highly musical singer who struggled with keeping the tempo.
> 
> Melchior's voice and technique were absolutely spectacular. It was an intrinsically heroic voice and if you listen to it, there certainly was an interpretation behind it.
> 
> ...


Just saying what the professional conductor said.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> So you feel you know more than a professional conductor?


So you feel you know more than the percussion section of the La Scala orchestra?

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> There are numerous recordings of Melchior singing "Wintersturme." None of them are in 10/8. HIs recordings suggest that his main fault was getting ahead of the beat. It's at least a more invigorating fault than getting behind it.
> 
> Melchior was neither stupid nor a poor musician. I suspect that Solti was allowing himself a bit of poetic license.


Thank you for finding the words that were on the end of my tongue, but I couldn't bring to mind: 'Ahead of the beat.' I only listened to one of Melchior's recordings and indeed that's exactly what happens. Conductors such as Leinsdorf or Bodanzky would never have allowed the orchestra to play in 10/8 when it should be 9/8 and if he had been singing in a different time signature to the orchestra he would have been out of sync. Solti may have been making a joke about rubato and a clever one, but I know some orchestral players who couldn't stand working with him and would say it just proves Solti didn't know the difference between 10/8 and 9/8.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Thank you for finding the words that were on the end of my tongue, but I couldn't bring to mind: 'Ahead of the beat.' I only listened to one of Melchior's recordings and indeed that's exactly what happens. Conductors such as Leinsdorf or Bodanzky would never have allowed the orchestra to play in 10/8 when it should be 9/8 and if he had been singing in a different time signature to the orchestra he would have been out of sync. Solti may have been making a joke about rubato and a clever one, but I know some orchestral players who couldn't stand working with him and would say it just proves Solti didn't know the difference between 10/8 and 9/8.
> 
> N.


Peculiar then that you guys know more than the guy who conducted the Ring numerous occasions. Just repeating what he said. If you read what I said one of the times he had a piano accompanying him. But of course Melchior is a legend so in the words of John Ford we must 'Print the Legend! :lol:


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> There are numerous recordings of Melchior singing "Wintersturme." None of them are in 10/8. HIs recordings suggest that his main fault was getting ahead of the beat.


This is true of a lot of Melchior's live recordings, much less so in the studio recordings. It was consistent enough that one conductor - I think that it was Leinsdorf - said "Melchior is a very reliable artist - you can count on him making the same mistakes every performance".

Welcome back, Wooduck - you've been missed!


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

adriesba said:


> So he was saying Melchior's voice was small?


Hard to say, but I doubt it. Critics and audiences back in the day were a lot less concerned about vocal heft than today. I suspect that he was saying that Melchior's Siegmund was nothing special, and inferior to the assumptions of many of his predecessors.


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

wkasimer said:


> Hard to say, but I doubt it. Critics and audiences back in the day were a lot less concerned about vocal heft than today. I suspect that he was saying that Melchior's Siegmund was nothing special, and inferior to the assumptions of many of his predecessors.


Which is a disturbing thought.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Ulfilas said:


> Which is a disturbing thought.


It isn't surprising, since civilization has been in decline since 1930.

Well, singing has, at least.


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> Well, singing has, at least.


On the whole, yes.


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