# Blind Comparison - Debussy - Iberia



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Yet another in the very occasional blind comparison series in which there are six (yes, 6) different performances of _Iberia_ from Debussy's _Images pour orchestre_. The idea, as always, is to listen to them and offer your thoughts without being biased by knowing the identity of the performers. This is not intended as a guessing game, just a way of offering opinions. Of course some of you might recognize some of the performances in which case please do not post it so as not to spoil it for others. I will give it a few days until revealing the identities but if you want an early 'reveal', please feel free to PM me. You are also welcome to do so if you want to offer your guesses.

Lastly, six may seem like a lot but after finding some interesting performances, I decided that I was unable to find a good reason for leaving out any of them. If it seems much to you then I suggest sampling them and picking some to do a more detailed listen - there is no requirement to completely listen to all of them.

P.S. These files are playable directly on your browser, just click on the link and then the start button, there is no need to download the files.

A - part 1: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZxMypXZulj387x213XL5GUYWT6oHj2px76y
- part 2/3: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZOMypXZ897sd53gix039jSLxHt3hbs6Cpry

B - part 1: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZcMypXZb9QRTioeUiJK8CjKeOFmSBIC8o6k
- part 2/3: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZXTypXZup3OuWEK06LX2bADyhhfW4hzTYG7

C - part 1: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZFTypXZh7hJ50Y0kzH79mFwb8qUop7EbiTV
- part 2/3: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZHTypXZp4iTXpGa47k7n8sk5azTYjYkyW2k

D - part 1: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZ8TypXZFSmGcvEEzM41li7Il4lg6BYAb7GV
- part 2/3: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZQTypXZlWodKeVeDz755KJADOU4hS6axvGk

E - part 1: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZuTypXZNOqaldiBY9jHj1dbbBl1J01S59hX
- part 2/3: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZeTypXZeItaM5IrajLzOaR8ar8F08KUh34X

F - part 1: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZuMypXZX1DqPaNbb0BcOEj2H714rkQk9vmk 
- part 2/3: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZnMypXZQriJSBBYA8uW9UIw5zFeMQWICmJ7


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I'll have a listen to these later, Becca. I only have a few Iberias in my collection, one of which I hear as a reference version (it's not one of these, btw). Pacing is everything in that first movement. Too slow is a deal breaker for me and the music drags but too quick and it can sound hurried
I wrote one of these off immediately because of this but maybe I'm being harsh.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

I'm in. Gone through A to C once so far. Have to confess I'm not terribly familiar with Iberia (or Images as a whole), even though I have got a few recordings of it, so I'll need to spend a bit more time than usual.

In general I like things fast, but I'm OK with slow if it can sustain the tension, imagination, impression whatever. For articulation reasons alone, it's a no no for me. I also think with Debussy, like Ravel, idiosyncrasy in a performance could enhance the listening experience. Well I'm in danger of setting myself criteria to score these six recordings. I'll now go *feel* the music instead.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I listened to D right through (quite an ordeal) and whilst there is undoubtedly some lovely playing it's all wayyyyy too slow for me and gets bogged down with some sustained notes that aren't necessary and kill the flow. Le yawn. I'll say no more as I don't want to give anything away. Lol


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I've now listened to D, E and F. D and especially F are right out of it as they are just too damn slow. Both have some merits in their playing but like Bolero, if this piece is too slow it doesn't work at all. E is the polar opposite and moves at a very brisk rate of knots, which at first made me raise my eyebrows, but on a second listen its far more acceptable (even if its still a little quick). What I do like about E is it is full of characterful little touches and nice dynamics. I'll listen to the rest later but none are touching the two I own up to now.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

It's nice to see that some of 'the usual culprits' are getting involved  I hope that others decide to join in.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Thanks, Becca, for another enjoyable blind comparison! You've set it up very conveniently with the samples that don't need to be downloaded. And Debussy's _Images pour orchestre_ is music I can happily listen to repeatedly.

I own only one recording of this work, and I've listened to it many times over the years, so I've got some imprinting to contend with. I won't mention what my reference recording is until after the reveal.

I only listened to the first part of the _Iberia_ recordings ("Par les rues et par les chemins"). My order of preference is: *B*, F, A, D, E, C. The first three of these I basically liked, the other three I didn't like. Notes:

A: Quite fast, a little too fast for my taste. A straight reading with the orchestra sections in good balance. I like it, but don't find it distinctive.

*B*: I really like the relatively steady rhythm with great forward momentum. The overall speed is perfect for me, as are the tempi and dynamics. Brass and winds quite forward, giving this recording a bright, intimate, and exuberant feel, which suits my apprehension of this music.

C: Recessed and hollow sound (a recording issue), like the orchestra is a speck in a huge cavern. Way too much rubato, which in places loses the forward momentum which is essential to my enjoyment. Skittish rhythms in places which are to me downright unpleasant.

D: Much too slow. Vibrato in the wind and especially brass playing that I don't find suitable.

E: Too fast, feels rushed in many places. Low winds sound like they're inside an air duct. Strings too treble.

F: Medium speed, played straight without too much rubato or vibrato in the winds and brass. Somewhat subdued but tasteful strings, prominent and exciting percussion. Somewhat lacking in forward momentum.

I'm looking forward to reading other listeners' comments!


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

I've gone through A to C.

A
These streets are bustling in an orderly fashion. This is a late 20th century metropolitan city where efficiency rules.
The scent of the night is not very subtle, and rather loud. There are flashes of sensuality, but overall a bit mannered.
Rustling strings interrupt the cozy morning almost comically. The morning activities sound uplifting.
Overall A sounds more like a musical fest rather than an impressionistic soundscape. (My unpopular opinion is that Debussy could have approved because of the non-impressionistic nature.)

B
These streets are leisurely rather than vibrant; but the impression is also fluid and subtle.
The magical scent of the night is immediately apparent. It also gets a bit sensual in the middle of part 2.
The transition into part 3 is seamless. The morning activities are cozy and full of fun. These are town folks who are preparing a once-a-year funfair in the town square. The mayor, who has been having sleepless nights, only made a late entry but is quickly overtaken by the festive mood.

C
Recording level is quieter than A & B so I needed to turn up the volume for a valid comparison.
There are lots of sonically attractive details from a nicely balanced orchestra.
These streets are fluid and full of character. A very interesting city indeed, almost to the point of being exotic.
The scent of the night sounds sensual.
The morning activities start with rustling but not intrusive strings, and are again full of character.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

I only have one version of this work but I like it a lot. I'd say that none of these recordings were something that I would prefer to the one I have. Like Merl was saying, I like the opening to have a nice brisk pace. A was my favorite, though I thought all of the others were well played, they just didn't have enough snap for me, except E which I thought was too fast.

Edit: Listening through B again. While I think it's slow in the first section, it's beautifully played. I'd say A&B are my favorites in that order.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Thanks to those who are participating, I do hope others will join in the fun


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

A are B are OK. C is a bit more interesting. E still sounds too fast but at least it has character. None of these are anywhere near the 2 I have in terms of quality. D is crap and F is boring.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Merl said:


> A are B are OK.


I just finished listening to the A and I agree with you, although my personal impression is that it would be more than OK, if it was in better sound. Debussy's orchestration is so crazy colourful that I think any shortcomings sound-wise rob it of unusually many orchestral details. In the case of this particular recording, the sound is somewhat distant and the dynamic range limited (although some of the dynamic choices themselves are very effective), making it appear a bit boxy.

There's some wonderful intensity and forward-motion in the playing in the 1st movement. The music in the first movement seems to just push forward no matter what and I find this simply wonderful to listen to. There is something quite Bolero-ish about it. In the second movement there is some wonderful subtlety in the playing but the sound bothers me more than in the first movement. The third movement could do with a bit more playfulness. To me, it simply feels a bit too heavy during some sections. Only after it gets loud and quick, it becomes enjoyable and impressive again. Gets very over-the-top in the end (which is not necessarily a bad thing ).

It's not comparable to my reference accounts but I think the comparison is also difficult to make, considering the questionable sound quality. Anyway, the conductors who manage to bring out the orchestral clarity seem to do very well with this work.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

It is always fascinating to see the general areas of both agreement and disagreement


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

D
Slow, articulated, beautiful and colourful in certain passages. However, I instinctively repulsed it, with a strong suspicion that this is pretentious self-indulgence done in the name of artistic expression. I mean, look-cool zen is not the real zen. Even I know that. D is not my cup of tea, to put it nicely.

I need to go do something else to flush D out of my memory before I resume with E & F. :lol:


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

E
At first these streets did sound mental to me. Having listened to it a few more times, I got used to it though. For me, it reminds me of those large markets that’s bustling, noisy, with a lot of shouting/promoting, and even those wobbly woodwinds add to the exotic feel, not to mention they swing wildly. Elegance is definitely not on the agenda here. There is a Solti-type of loudness and a young Abbado’s frenzy in the quality that I enjoyed very much.
It does wind down come nightfall with exotic woodwinds and strings. However, there isn’t much finesse in the scent of this brand of perfume, although there are flashes of sensuality especially in the strings. The vibrato (or simply wobbling) and the reverb of the recording also makes it sound extra exotic.
Then there is a joyous morning on the day of the festival. It’s not elegant and delightful as in B, but it is very livery. If B’s morning is likened to meringue, then E’s morning is like mashed beetroot with no seasoning. Again it sounds exotic and it swings gorgeously.

I understand that here at TC we have a variety of cultural backgrounds, so what sounds “mental” or “elegant” or “exotic” or “sensual” to me might not sound so to you. And then what do we know about Debussy’s perception of Iberia, apart from what we hear in the music which, as a historical document, is rather unreliable. Try to feel the music, and our own past experience will resonate with the music in different ways, regardless how close a conductor gets to Debussy’s intention. Fascinating, isn’t it?

F
Have to confess, listening to this after E could have clouded my judgement.
These streets are like… me tip-toeing reluctantly in downtown on a Monday morning where the rioters and the shameless politicians have been having an arson party every weekend. You see, nothing bad will happen on Monday, but the air is filled with negative energy. I’m probably being a bit too harsh on the performance though. There are also some swinging moments in the orchestra, but I found that terribly inappropriate at the chosen tempo.
The scent of the night opens promisingly, but the rest could barely sustain the magic. There are some beautiful moments, but to be honest, I couldn't wait for the night to be over.
Then there is a very natural transition into morning. Bravo! Unfortunately the morning activities never really get into gear until the very end but even then it's still stuck in third gear.

For me, E stands out as the most interesting, despite all its flaws. I’ll have to listen to A, B, C and F again to make up my mind about them.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Kiki said:


> ... like mashed beetroot with no seasoning.


Aaaarrrrggghhh


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## musichal (Oct 17, 2020)

I preferred C, or maybe F. Others I thought too fast, or slow. I only listened to Part 1, though, and not in their entirety.

However, being unfamiliar with the piece, my preference is rather arbitrary. La Mer is a four-decades long favorite of mine, and now I'll be looking for Iberia on disc, so will be watching this thread with added interest.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Becca said:


> Aaaarrrrggghhh


Sounds exotic, doesn't it? Just to be clear, I didn't say great; neither did I say it's not.  It's just, exotic, and I found that very interesting, especially since it is full of character, as Merl has also noted. P.S. Off the top of my head, the closest in performance terms I can think of is Kondrashin's crazily fast Leningrad Mahler 6. Crazy. No, exotic.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

musichal said:


> I preferred C, or maybe F. Others I thought too fast, or slow. I only listened to Part 1, though, and not in their entirety.
> 
> However, being unfamiliar with the piece, my preference is rather arbitrary. La Mer is a four-decades long favorite of mine, and now I'll be looking for Iberia on disc, so will be watching this thread with added interest.


Do listen to the rest if you can. No pressure of course. The rest contains some fantastic music too! The transition between part 2 and part 3 can also sound quite extraordinary IMO. I wasn't familiar with Iberia (or Images as a whole) before this blindcom either, but for me this has been a rewarding exercise. Also thanks to Becca's excellent selections that cover a wide variety of performances.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I've been listening to the B. It starts off very confident but the first movement wasn't anything particularly eye-opening. I think its main strength lies in the second movement where it gives way to some almost sensuous poeticism and subtleties. I personally would like the fast sections to be played even faster and more briskly. With it current tempos, I feel it lacks the effortless orchestral flow of my, so far, favourite accounts of the work.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

...and here is a list of the culprits...

A - Orchestre de la Suisse Romande - Ataúlfo Argenta
B - Halle Orchestra - Sir Mark Elder
C - Les Siecles - François-Xavier Roth 
D - Munich Philharmonic - Sergiu Celibidache
E - London Symphony - Leopold Stokowski
F - Anima Eterna - Jos Van Immerseel


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Now that we know the answers…

Is the Roth available on a commercial recording? I couldn’t find any Iberia (or Images) from him.

Thanks Becca for setting up this blindcom. This one is very enjoyable!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Thanks Kiki, posts such as yours make the effort a pleasure 

Here you go...


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

As I put earlier, Roth was my fave amongst these but none are in the league of Reiner, Munch or Boulez. Thanks for this, though, Becca. Apologies that I wasn't as involved as usual but I've been doing some heavy listening in the Weekly Quartet thread. If you want a recommendation on Borodin's 2nd quartet though........ :lol:


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

BTW, my reference, and favorite, recording is Munch/Boston SO, 1957, RCA Living Stereo. Among Becca's offerings, I feel like B (Elder/Halle) is the most like it in speed and overall feel. And I really liked Elder/Halle a lot, so that now I'm going to try to listen to that conductor and orchestra across a range of works, not knowing them well at all at this time. That's one of the things I really appreciate about these marvelous blind comparisons - new discoveries.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Simplicissimus said:


> BTW, my reference, and favorite, recording is Munch/Boston SO, 1957, RCA Living Stereo. Among Becca's offerings, I feel like B (Elder/Halle) is the most like it in speed and overall feel. And I really liked Elder/Halle a lot, so that now I'm going to try to listen to that conductor and orchestra across a range of works, not knowing them well at all at this time. That's one of the things I really appreciate about these marvelous blind comparisons - new discoveries.


The Halle/Elder recordings have been a mixed bag, some really good, others rather average. I do like his Debussy. Other very good recordings which come to mind are the Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony (the top of my list) and a recent Sibelius 6th.


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## perdido34 (Mar 11, 2015)

My favorite is the first Boulez/Cleveland recording (Sony, not DG), which has incredible playing and transparent sound. To my mind, nothing comes close.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

I was a bit burnt out by Iberia during this blindcom, so I decided to come back to this "new discovery" a bit later. Now that I have, I'm finding the Stokowski sounding more and more fascinating. Once I've got used to it, it doesn't sound mental at all, and it's rather persuasive.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Kiki said:


> I was a bit burnt out by Iberia during this blindcom, so I decided to come back to this "new discovery" a bit later. Now that I have, I'm finding the Stokowski sounding more and more fascinating. Once I've got used to it, it doesn't sound mental at all, and it's rather persuasive.


Interesting. I will try it again, too. I find Stoki a lot of fun, though I don't always like his interpretations. He has so much personality.


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