# Lasting appeal



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

In another thread, someone said the best pop and rock would probably outlast almost all post-1975 classical music. Agree or disagree? And what does it mean?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I disagree. I don't see why music listeners of the future wouldn't be interested in all of the great composers of the late 20th century. The best of the pop and rock music may well survive and be listened to by more people. And that includes the great American songbook repertoire which appears to be timeless 80-90 years on. But much of the topical popular music of the 60s may sound quaint and irrelevant to future generations. Who knows? At the present time I'm not sure how many people younger than the baby boomers have an interest in this stuff?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Well the statement is kind of vague and could also be re-worded to say: "The best contemporary classical music will outlast almost all post-1975 pop and rock" and still be true. Either way most music in both genres will likely be largely forgotten. 

I think a fair amount of post-1975 classical music (some conservative some avant-garde) will be remembered and most of it forgotten, the same as in other periods of history.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Thanks to recording, a lot more of both will last than deserves to.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

The best contemporary music is unlikely to outlast the appeal of the best pop-rock music. Starting in the late 1950s with Elvis Presley, continuing on (particularly) with the music of the 60s (think The Beatles) and then with the explosion of high quality pop-rock in the 70s and 80s and on, contemporary music can’t compete. People have apparently not tired of The Beatles, given all the re-edited recordings and that is music 1/2 century old. My guess is that the total number of Beatles recordings sold outnumber all the contemporary recordings sold, put together, since 1965.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Just the other day I was humming songs by Stephen Foster and wondering who these people Schumann and Chopin and Liszt and Mendelssohn were.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

As long as our society overwhelmingly prefers pop and rock, it doesn't matter how good post-1975 classical is, it will still be neglected. But if you mean solely among classical enthusiasts, I think a good deal of it will, though I think the most extreme avant-garde electronic/aleatoric stuff that pushes the bounds of "music" will probably be seen more as a quirky curiosity in the future.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

To be honest, I would bet against the lasting appeal of both.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

IDK. I hate rock and pop (sorry  ), but I think they deserve to be remembered more than most modern classical music. Modern classical music does have some hidden gems though. Hopefully the good pieces will be discovered and appreciated over time.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

John Williams and maybe Hans Zimmer will be remembered. Movie and video game scores will be the "new classical" of the era.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

AeolianStrains said:


> John Williams and maybe Hans Zimmer will be remembered. Movie and video game scores will be the "new classical" of the era.


They might if non-film composers don't get their act together, lol. :lol: IDK.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Here are possibly the top three "pop" songs of the year 1900:

Arthur Collins ► "Ma Tiger Lily" • 




Albert Campbell ► "Ma Blushin' Rosie" • 




George J Gaskin ► "When Cloe Sings a Song" • 




Once you've enjoyed those immortal classics, who cares to ever listen to these other "tunes" from c. 1900, all of which, I would venture, were unheard by _many_ of those who hummed along to or danced to the above three "hits":

Arnold Schoenberg - _Verklärte Nacht_
Giacomo Puccini - _Tosca_
Edward Elgar - _Pomp and Circumstance Marches_ and _Enigma Variations_
Gustav Mahler - Symphony No. 4 in G

To be fair, Scott Joplin's "Maple Leaf Rag" dates to around this era, too.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Personally speaking, (without any research or recourses etc) I believe that the Bohemian Rhapsody alone surpass as a value the post 1975 classical (for me also, this music isn't classical) music as a whole. (all together) The music of groups such The guns and Roses, The Dire Straits, The Kauan, The Metallica, The Scorpions etc. is giving me great pleasure in comparison with the classical music after 1975, which, mostly, is for me a no go. Of course, I'm not an expert in the field ''Modern CM'' and my opinion could be wrong or… completely wrong. :lol:


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Pop and rock are very ephemeral and highly dependent on nostalgia. Orchestras know this and program Pops concerts accordingly. Thankfully, the Gershwin concerts are vanishing and being replaced by more Broadway, The Beatles, ABBA, Video Games etc. They draw crowds. And they're spending less time on classics concerts. The real question is "best". When I hear some of the pop music today (the last 40 years actually) I hear an astonishing lack of quality. It's not just that I'm old and crusty: can't anyone write tunes any more? Real melodies? You go back to some of the amazing tunes and harmonies of writers like Jimmy Webb and today's stuff is just awful by comparison. Is there any rock band that can put together the complex harmonies of the Beach Boys? Maybe I don't listen to enough pop music (and I have no desire to) but there's just no comparison - today's musicians and songwriters are far below the standards of the greats from 1900 to 1975 or so. Same thing happened in country, too. Lordy we could use someone like Marty Robbins today!


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Dimace said:


> Personally speaking, (without any research or recourses etc) I believe that the Bohemian Rhapsody alone surpass as a value the post 1975 classical (for me also, this music isn't classical) music as a whole. (all together) The music of groups such The guns and Roses, The Dire Straits, The Kauan, The Metallica, The Scorpions etc. is giving me great pleasure in comparison with the classical music after 1975, which, mostly, is for me a no go. Of course, I'm not an expert in the field ''Modern CM'' and my opinion could be wrong or… completely wrong. :lol:


Try Górecki's Symphony no. 3 (1976). In my opinion, it's one of the few good pieces composed after 1950ish.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Maybe one reason not many modern works are being performed as often as older ones is that the good works have to be found and digested by audiences for awhile to become established. I mean, it is called _classical_ music. A work that premiered this year can't be called a classic because it hasn't been around long enough. Works from circa 1900 - 1945ish are still being performed (e.g., Shostakovich, Orff, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Copland, etc.), but they have been around for a few generations and become established. Plus, some composers are unearthed later (like Bach at one point?). It seems people are only just recently coming to appreciate Schmidt. Even Baroque composers like Rameau seem to be recorded more now than 50 years ago. Maybe there are good works out there that need to work their way into people's hearts. Perhaps the craze over more recent popular music musicians will die out with those that grew up with them. There always seem to be people saying certain music is their "parents music" or their "grandparents music". Perhaps then the classical music from the time will fill the void of the time period.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

SONNET CLV said:


> Here are possibly the top three "pop" songs of the year 1900:
> To be fair, Scott Joplin's "Maple Leaf Rag" dates to around this era, too.


There is one from the 1890s that is timeless in message and very catchy [and entered the American National Recording Registry]:





But of course pop music is no match for classical. Not because of quality even, but because the listeners of pop and rock music are less of archeologists than classical music fans are.


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## erki (Feb 17, 2020)

If I listen "pop" music like peasant songs from few hundred years back and compare it to the "classical" of the era I think the latter is more like music. So I think that in 200 years Elvis and Beatles as a name would be largely forgotten but many classical compositions of today are played still. It would be interesting if blues that most of pop music is based on today gets discarded.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

isorhythm said:


> In another thread, someone said the best pop and rock would probably outlast almost all post-1975 classical music. Agree or disagree? And what does it mean?


Far, far too early to tell. The universe of all the arts--certainly that of music--is now so huge and divided into so many niche categories, each with its own audience of followers and devotees, that it is impossible to predict what will outlast what. Today's pop may be instantly disposable but the persistence on FM radio of Classic Rock stations is testament to a certain longevity of that genre. Also the popularity (how long sustained?) of tribute bands like Brit Floyd, etc., and of PBS specials remembering disco, doo-***, R&B, etc., also indicate something, but what exactly? Let's meet again in 2100 and re-examine the situation.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

This question brings us back to the debate about whether atonal music produces pleasurable brain responses in most humans in the way that tonal music does. Based upon findings of which I am aware from ethnomusicology and experimental psychology, tonal music seems to be perceived, cognitively processed, and culturally utilized differently from atonal music. Although many philosophically minded classical music enthusiasts like me are interested in post-1975 atonal and dissonant music, I think it is unlikely that it will be listened to for pleasure 200 years from now. On the other hand, I can imagine that post-1975 tonal (or mostly tonal) classical music (e.g., Higdon, Adams, Glass, Hamelin) will gain more listeners in the present and could attract listeners in the future, taking its place alongside well established classical music from earlier times in the 20th Century and earlier centuries. Some choice post-1975 pop music could also be preserved or re-discovered, as could film music (which could be conflated with classical music), and tonal jazz (mainstream or smooth jazz).

What does it mean to “outlast”? I think about the early music revival in which I was caught up in the middle and late 20th Century. This involved medieval, Renaissance, and early Baroque music – a very long time period with many forms of music and a vast number of compositions. If there is some kind of revival 200 years from now, I don’t think it would be focused on so narrow a time period as 1975 to, say, 2025, with respect to classical music, because the oeuvre is small. Pop music and jazz from this 50 year period is much more plentiful and these forms could be the subject of a revival, I think.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

adriesba said:


> Try Górecki's Symphony no. 3 (1976). In my opinion, it's one of the few good pieces composed after 1950ish.


Ja! I know this masterpiece. (I have 3 or 4 recordings of it) There are also other super works from the modern CM era. But, personally, I found not a lot satisfaction with the majority of the works from this period. Maybe I must keep trying!


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Dimace said:


> Ja! I know this masterpiece. (I have 3 or 4 recordings of it) There are also other super works from the modern CM era. But, personally, I found not a lot satisfaction with the majority of the works from this period. Maybe I must keep trying!


Do you have a recording you recommend?


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> Here are possibly the top three "pop" songs of the year 1900:
> 
> Arthur Collins ► "Ma Tiger Lily" •
> 
> ...











So, these sorts of songs and lyrics were all the rage back then.

The grossly racial lyrics to *My Tiger Lily* (This one premiered in the musical comedy *Aunt Hannah*, which was produced at the Bijou Theatre in New York City) are awful beyond belief.

_1. I'd frow down any **** fur her
She frowed down piles for me
No matter when er where, she'll ketch 'em by de pair
She's wicked as kin be
But she ain't never caused no sigh
To dis yere yaller ****
You hear me all I'm proud to leave her in a crowd
And see dem crazy n****rs spoon

Refrain:
Fur she's ma Lily, my Tiger Lily
She draws de n****rs like a crowd of flies
A Queen in shape and size, got diamonds in her eyes
She is ma sweetest one, ma Baby Tiger Lily

2. I met her at a ball one night
And gave her jest one smile
She shook her ****** pard and handed me her card
I wrote ma name in style
She wouldn't waltz no **** but me
I took de last quadrille
And when de ball was froo, de furst thing dat I knew
She swoa ma little bride to be_

Performing (conducting, music director) a couple of *Gilbert and Sullivan* operettas (produced between 1871 and 1896) a year, we find that we often have to do a bit of "cleaning up" to make them presentable for performance in the 21st Century.

That's the way it was back then, a mere three to four decades after the end of the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation.

Of course, just like "Popular" music, Classical music also engaged in its own brand of racism, misogyny, and bigotry, right up through the Third Reich.

But in both Popular AND Classical music, there were also progressive works that looked ahead at civil rights and compassion, as in the poem that inspired the string sextet _*Verklärte Nacht*_.

One step back, two steps ahead.

For every Archies' "Sugar, Sugar", there is a Joni Mitchell "Clouds".


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Dimace said:


> Ja! I know this masterpiece. (I have 3 or 4 recordings of it) There are also other super works from the modern CM era. But, personally, I found not a lot satisfaction with the majority of the works from this period. Maybe I must keep trying!


Another one is Poulenc's opera _Dialogues des Carmélites_ .


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

From another thread:



Art Rock said:


> An attempt. Alphabetically per composer obviously. And probably forgetting quite a few....
> 
> Alwyn - Lyra Angelica, Concerto for harp and string orchestra (1954)
> Barber - Knoxville summer of 1915 (1947)
> ...


In my opinion, none of these are too far out for people who are hesitant to explore the post 1945 period of classical music. Just give a few a try!


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

AeolianStrains said:


> Do you have a recording you recommend?











I suggest this one because of 1. Frau Kozlowska, who is truly a superlative soprano and 2. because I have listened only this one from my 4 recordings.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

For Gorecki, I would recommend this classic:


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## TMHeimer (Dec 19, 2019)

Classical music (I prefer the term "serious" music, since there is a specific time frame for "Classical"--ie. Haydn, Mozart, etc.) will probably always have fans for each period. Many people still enjoy Bach. Pop music will continue to go through style changes--though I have found little of interest the last 20-30 years since melody and "enjoyable" chord progressions seem to have pretty much died. But, pop music may return to something good again like the 70s & 80s. There are only so many "styles" to evolve to. 
In "serious" music we have had the progression from Romantic to Impressionism, then a shift totally away from diatonic, even to 12 tone. Then back to a mix of atonal with tonal. Where will it end? How much can be changed and different anymore? 
I took an electronic music course back in college circa 1975 and the prof. said that technology (even then) was good enough that we can produce pretty much anything you could want.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> For Gorecki, I would recommend this classic:


I second your recommendation.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Art Rock said:


> From another thread:
> 
> In my opinion, none of these are too far out for people who are hesitant to explore the post 1945 period of classical music. Just give a few a try!


I_'ve cued up _ Vaughan Williams - *Sinfonia antartica* (1952)

Liking the Prelude . . . .


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

pianozach said:


> I_'ve cued up _ Vaughan Williams - *Sinfonia antartica* (1952)
> 
> Liking the Prelude . . . .


I enjoyed the whole thing, but it wasn't particularly "modern". Actually, it reminded me a lot of Holst.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

There are a lot more on the list I shared that are not particularly "modern". That was also not asked for. I'd suggest that you could try the Finzi concertos next, or if you want to try something a bit more modern, the Berio Sinfonia.

A step-wise approach into the post 1945 era might convince people that classical music did not stop in 1945. No-one has to like all of it, but categorically stating that it is all not worthwhile is also not realistic. And my experience is that the more you try, the more you find that's worthwhile.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_In another thread, someone said the best pop and rock would probably outlast almost all post-1975 classical music. Agree or disagree? And what does it mean?_

I think some popular music songs may continue to be performed but probably not as long as classical music. Songs like *Yesterday*, *That's Life*, *Take The A Train* and *Boogie Woogie Bugle Bo*y will continue to be performed in Las Vegas and at showboats, county fairs, wedding receptions and other venues.

But will they be sung 200 years from now? Popular music, generally speaking, has a tendency to die when no one is any longer alive when it was written.

You know classical music will continue to be performed in the coming centuries. With Mahler as our example it's likely some composer that's written music since 1975 will strike a chord with listeners and orchestras in the future and become famous.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

On a side note, *Todd Rundgren* released an album titled "*Faithful*" in 1976. The first side is dedicated to "faithful" re-recordings-near-replications of the originals-of some classic 1960s psychedelic-era songs (*Strawberry Fields Forever* and *Rain* from the *Beatles*, _*Happenings Ten Years Time Ago*_ by the *Yardbirds*, *If Six Was Nine* by *Jimi Hendrix*, *Good Vibrations* by *The Beach Boys*, and *Most Likely You Go Your Way And I'll Go Mine* by *Bob Dylan*

*Rundgren* explained the motivation of the first side as treating rock music like European classical music, where a piece is performed over and over again in essentially the same way.

Yesterday I stumbled across a YouTube video of *The Analogues* (from the Netherlands) performing the entire *Beatles* *White Album.* The performance was not merely covers of the songs, but they recreated, live, note-for-note, sound-for-sound, the entire album. They're a core group of 5 or 6 musicians that play guitars, keyboards, bass, and drums/percussion, and they all sing, but are supplemented, as needed, by string players and brass players, a guest vocalist (for three of the screamier songs) and even a harpist for the final song.

They play it faithfully.

_"The Beatles; to us, it's modern classical music. We're The Analogues; we think that you simply can't achieve a real, authentic sound with digital short cuts. We use the same instruments that The Beatles used in 1967. It's just different, and better, we think. It's a lot of hassle too. We have to look for instruments all over the world. You really come across some amazing stories doing this kind of thing. That actually sums up quite nicely what we do: We're obsessed with creating the perfect sound - but the story behind it is just as important for us."_

Playing exactly as recorded, the way the Beatles intended. Oh and they decided to give the same treatment to all of the post-concert albums of the Beatles as well, so there's more where THIS came from:


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Interesting responses.

I personally am a fan of a fair amount of post-1975 classical music, atonal and otherwise, but I don't think it will be the music for which our era is remembered. That will be music from more popular styles.

At one time I found it annoying if anyone suggested that a pop artist was "the Mozart of our time," or whatever, and would have insisted that the modern equivalent of Mozart would have to be found among working classical composers. But I don't believe that anymore.


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