# Greatest American born composer of all time?



## DavidMahler

Who do you think it is?

All musics allowed, not just classical if you prefer.


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## norman bates

i don't know who is the greatest, but my favorite is Alec Wilder who is still too much underrated just because it's too difficult to pigeonhole.


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## starthrower

There seems to be an ongoing fascination with "the greatest" at this forum. I enjoy many of the fine American composers from Barber, Ives, and Copland, to Carter,Schuman, and Zappa. And that's not to mention composers from the jazz world.


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## clavichorder

starthrower said:


> There seems to be an ongoing fascination with "the greatest" at this forum. I enjoy many of the fine American composers from Barber, Ives, and Copland, to Carter,Schuman, and Zappa. And that's not to mention composers from the jazz world.


I'm always pleased that starthrower shares my high regard for Schuman. Copland is my personal favorite in the classical scene, and Zappa is always a blast.


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## DavidMahler

no mention of Ellington thus far... but I would pick either

Ellington
Ives
E. Smith


and I'd probably go with Smith, tho he'd be a very odd choice to many


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## norman bates

DavidMahler said:


> no mention of Ellington thus far... but I would pick either
> 
> Ellington
> Ives
> E. Smith
> 
> and I'd probably go with Smith, tho he'd be a very odd choice to many


i understand that you consider him a great songwriter, but "composer"? It's a different thing, not necessarily better, but a different thing notwithstanding.


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## DavidMahler

norman bates said:


> i understand that you consider him a great songwriter, but "composer"? It's a different thing, not necessarily better, but a different thing notwithstanding.


I don't agree, but I know why you express that. I consider Lennon and McCartney composers, just as I would Beethoven.


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## kv466

Just judging by who I listen to most, I have to go with Barber and Copland.


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## norman bates

DavidMahler said:


> I don't agree, but I know why you express that. I consider Lennon and McCartney composers, just as I would Beethoven.


so you think that just for the musical content the work of Elliott Smith is superior or more sophisticated than that of people like Ives, Copland, Barber, Ellington, Elliott Carter, Mingus, Gershwin, Richard Rodgers, Monk etc? 
Again, i don't know well his work, but it seems to me that his music (from a musical point of view) is really simple. Certainly it doesn't mean that he's not great, and maybe i'm missing something but do you really consider his music great just because of his compositional skills?
There are a lot of jazz, blues and rock musicians who are great and they are not composers. Louis Armstrong is considered by many one of the greatest american musicians ever but he certainly wasn't a composer. Another example: Dylan is a great songwriter, maybe the most influential songwriter ever, but certainly he wasn't a great composer, his greatness is in other aspects of his music (the lyrics).


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## DavidMahler

norman bates said:


> so you think that just for the musical content the work of Elliott Smith is superior or more sophisticated than that of people like Ives, Copland, Barber, Ellington, Elliott Carter, Mingus, Gershwin, Richard Rodgers, Monk etc?
> Again, i don't know well his work, but it seems to me that his music (from a musical point of view) is really simple. Certainly it doesn't mean that he's not great, and maybe i'm missing something but do you really consider his music great just because of his compositional skills?
> There are a lot of jazz, blues and rock musicians who are great and they are not composers. Louis Armstrong is considered by many one of the greatest american musicians ever but he certainly wasn't a composer. Another example: Dylan is a great songwriter, maybe the most influential songwriter ever, but certainly he wasn't a great composer, his greatness is in other aspects of his music (the lyrics).


from a musical standpoint I don't consider Dylan a great songwriter. I don't consider Dylan a composer.

I only consider maybe a dozen people out of the classical and jazz vernacular to be composers. I do think Elliott Smith's understanding of chord and melody placement is greater than Barber's. But Neil Young, Bruce Springsteen, Brian Wilson.... no, I think Barber had a greater handle on musical composition. Smith's understanding seems so intuitive.

PS, I don't really care about words, so that's why Dylan, good as he was, is not a composer to me.

I would say

the greatest non-classical composers of America in the 20th Century

are Smith, Ellington, Gershwin, Monk, Mingus, Berlin in that order, though I love Rodgers a lot, I don't think he's quite on the level of the others.


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## norman bates

DavidMahler said:


> from a musical standpoint I don't consider Dylan a great songwriter. I don't consider Dylan a composer.
> 
> I only consider maybe a dozen people out of the classical and jazz vernacular to be composers. I do think Elliott Smith's understanding of chord and melody placement is greater than Barber's.


that's a very very strong statement, i mean, Barber had a formal education and he knew harmony for sure. I'm curious to listen some song of him that demostrate what you're saying, because it's really hard to believe (even because i've listened to some of his music and i've never heard something musically so impressive by him). Anyway i think that Rodgers was a lot more sophisticated than Berlin.


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## violadude

DavidMahler said:


> I do think Elliott Smith's understanding of chord and melody placement is greater than Barber's.


Oh really????


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## Guest

I don't know about "greatest," but my personal favorite is Samuel Barber. And not just for his Adagio (which I prefer in string quartet format). His symphonies are wonderful, as are his various concertos.


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## Art Rock

DrMike said:


> I don't know about "greatest," but my personal favorite is Samuel Barber. And not just for his Adagio (which I prefer in string quartet format). His symphonies are wonderful, as are his various concertos.


Indeed. As are his songs, first and foremost Knoxville Summer of 1915.


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## DavidMahler

Yes, some things are not quantifiable by schooling.

I'm more schooled than Elliott Smith.

When a melody is right, it's perfect, it doesn't need to be justified or explained in cadences or theory.

I can demonstrate with much fancier choices, fully orchestrated songs.

But here, I'll pick something mightily simple. This, in all it's simplicity is more demonstrative of musical genius to me, than any work I've ever heard of Barber's.


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## Guest

Since "all time" last I checked has not yet happened, any proposal would be a trifle premature.

Since no one here, obviously, has listened to more than a fraction of music written by American born composers, any proposal would be a trifle premature.

Since most music by American born composers is "modern" or "avant garde" or "atonal" as people say and thus not even liked much, much less listened to, any proposal would be a trifle skewed.

Since "greatest" is a troublesome concept and would in this case if not every case require comparison of things that are not comparable, any proposal would be a trifle silly.

Since many of the other compositions by all the other composers who will never be proposed and since many compositions by all the other composers who would eventually be not the chosen _one,_ are well worth listening to, this entire business is just a trifle inutile, n'est-ce pas?

Do we listen to music to enjoy each piece as it's playing, or do we listen to music in order to choose "the best"?


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## norman bates

DavidMahler said:


> But here, I'll pick something mightily simple. This, in all it's simplicity is more demonstrative of musical genius to me, than any work I've ever heard of Barber's.


i've nothing against simplicity, but again this does not seems at all a genial composition (just from a musical point of view). There's no great sophistication in the changes, rhythm, "arrangement" or even in the melody, not even comparing it with the songs of sophisticated pop songwriters like the steely dan (and i have doubts that i would consider even them on the same compositional level of the masters of the american songbook).


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## norman bates

some guy said:


> Since no one here, obviously, has listened to more than a fraction of music written by American born composers, any proposal would be a trifle premature.


That's a really good point.


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## DavidMahler

norman bates said:


> i've nothing against simplicity, but again this does not seems at all a genial composition (just from a musical point of view). There's no great sophistication in the changes, rhythm, "arrangement" or even in the melody, not even comparing it with the songs of sophisticated pop songwriters like the steely dan (and i have doubts that i would consider even them on the same compositional level of the masters of the american songbook).


I'm a big SD fan, know them personally, and I've worked with Carlton and Christlieb (saxophonist on Deacon Blues)..... as far as composition goes, Elliott had a better handle on sophistication than Fagen/Becker. You mention sophistication in the rhythm, changes, etc.


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## DavidMahler

norman bates said:


> i've nothing against simplicity, but again this does not seems at all a genial composition (just from a musical point of view). There's no great sophistication in the changes, rhythm, "arrangement" or even in the melody, not even comparing it with the songs of sophisticated pop songwriters like the steely dan (and i have doubts that i would consider even them on the same compositional level of the masters of the american songbook).


What do you think of the changes in this song
http://www.fileswap.com/dl/WRbzguV7Ej/06_The_Clouded_Dream.mp3.html


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## starthrower

some guy said:


> Do we listen to music to enjoy each piece as it's playing, or do we listen to music in order to choose "the best"?


The latter, of course! How else to come up with lists for silly threads?


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## jalex

Eliott Smith's understanding of harmony is pretty sophisticated for a pop musician, I grant you. Of those songs you posted to showcase his understanding of rhythm, the first was a pretty good choice indicating he can write in a fairly rhythmically interesting way; the second wasn't great, mostly because of the plodding chordal accompaniment; the third was entirely rhythmically impoverished; the fourth was a mixed bag of interest and banality (the more interesting material being in the instrumental section in the middle, the majority of the rest being unexciting).

Overall I can't see him as anything more than a songwriter of above-average but not outstanding talent.


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## norman bates

DavidMahler said:


> I'm a big SD fan, know them personally, and I've worked with Carlton and Christlieb (saxophonist on Deacon Blues)..... as far as composition goes, Elliott had a better handle on sophistication than Fagen/Becker. You mention sophistication in the rhythm, changes, etc.


if i had to judge from a superficial listening i have not the same impression, and though there's some more interesting chord changes than in the first song you have linked i've certainly not the impression of the definitive american composer, a statement that seems really too much categorical even just for what Some guy has remarked.


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## Sid James

Don't know about "all time" but* Leonard Bernstein *was basically to the 20th century as Liszt was to the previous century. A musical polymath, a pianist, conductor, composer, straddling the divide between popular and serious music. Also his work talking about, educating the general public about, music, eg. his TV shows. All these things and more. He was a man of his time. I've been getting into his music more now in the past year, it is all excellent. My favourite pieces are his _Symphony #1 "Jeremiah,"_ the _Fancy Free_ ballet, the _Serenade for violin, strings and percussion_, the film score for _On the Waterfront_, and of course his great stage musicals, _On the Town _and _West Side Story_.

But I like many of the American composers, American music that I've come to know and love over the years. Harry Partch was a big discovery, as was Leo Ornstein. Of course, guys like Ives, Copland, Barber, Carter, Sessions, Thomson, Hanson, Gershwin, etc. goes without saying. I want to get some William Schuman, don't know him well, never had his stuff on disc. Also the great songwriters and jazzmen count here as well, definitely. American music came of age in the 20th century and that is my favourite period for music...


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## Olias

Copland and Bernstein are my two favorite American born composers. Copland is the obvious choice for most popular American composer (or prolific, or whatever adjective you wish to use, it seems easy to make a strong case for him).

Bernstein as a composer is still unjustly underrated in my opinion. Wonderful works like the Jeremiah Symphony, the Violin Serenade, Mass, Chichester Psalms, Candide, Slava, and the Fancy Free Ballet are really marvelous. Add to that he wrote the best musical score of all time. Oh yeah, he also taught a generation of adults and kids alike how to love Art Music all while being one of the most influential and memorable conductors of all time. I miss Lenny.


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## StlukesguildOhio

The difficulty in speaking of jazzmen and pop songwriters as composers is that much of what is essential to the resulting song was developed during the process of performance/recording. In other words, Richard Strauss scores every note that is to be played in performance of his _Four Last Songs_. He orchestrates exactly what each and every instrument will play. Now if we take a great Lennon and McCartney song such as Norwegian Wood, we find that this is not true. While Lennon and McCartney are credited as the songwriters, the other band-members as well as the producer, George Martin, certainly had an input into the instrumentation or orchestration if you will. The same is true of a majority of the greatest jazz recordings. _Kind of Blue_ is credited to Miles Davis... but Davis in no way composed every note. Coletrane, Adderly, Paul Chambers, Bill Evans... even Teo Macero had an input into the construction of the music as a whole. In this sense, while Louis Armstrong is pointed out rightly as not being a "composer", his inventions... his improvisations... are no less important than those of the tune-smith who merely constructed the over-all melody. How much of this is Gershwin and how much is Arnstrong and Ella?






As such, I'll avoid the question as worded and suggest that in my opinion the greatest contributions made to music by any American is to be found in the work of Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, Thelonius Monk, Louis Armstrong, Fats Waller, W.C. Handy...






Scott Joplin, Bix Beiderbeck, Benny Goodman, Sidney Bechet, Billie Holliday, Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Bill Evans, Gil Evans, Lenny Tristano, Charlie Parker, John Coletrane, Stephen Foster...






Aaron Copland, Samuel Barber, Charles Ives, Ned Rorem, Elliott Carter, Little Richard, B.B. King, Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Mahalia Jackson, Johnny Cash, Bob Dylan, Elvis Presley, Leonard Bernstein, John Adams, Steve Reich, Philip Glass... and many more.:tiphat:


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## Kevin Pearson

As has been stated nobody can definitively say who is the "greatest" American composer. All of us have "favorites" and some maybe even "a" favorite but none can say so and so is the "greatest". I love and enjoy several American composers. Aaron Copland, Howard Hanson, David Diamond, Leonard Bernstein, Meredith Wilson, Richard Rodgers are some of my favorites in the classical arena. And since this is a "classical" music forum I would prefer to limit my comments to just that. Even though I do enjoy other styles, especially jazz.

Kevin


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## Beethovenrox

I like Edward Mcdowell! His Piano sonatas are awesome! Big, loud and epic, just like I like it.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

some guy said:


> Since "all time" last I checked has not yet happened, any proposal would be a trifle premature.
> 
> Since no one here, obviously, has listened to more than a fraction of music written by American born composers, any proposal would be a trifle premature.
> 
> Since most music by American born composers is "modern" or "avant garde" or "atonal" as people say and thus not even liked much, much less listened to, any proposal would be a trifle skewed.
> 
> Since "greatest" is a troublesome concept and would in this case if not every case require comparison of things that are not comparable, any proposal would be a trifle silly.
> 
> Since many of the other compositions by all the other composers who will never be proposed and since many compositions by all the other composers who would eventually be not the chosen _one,_ are well worth listening to, this entire business is just a trifle inutile, n'est-ce pas?
> 
> Do we listen to music to enjoy each piece as it's playing, or do we listen to music in order to choose "the best"?


You wrote in another thread recently telling us that you work part time at a local CD/record shop. If a customer walks into the shop and asks for your recommendation of the "best" works along the lines of this thread, is this your answer to your customer, I wonder? You may also assume I am your employer/shop owner standing next to you awaiting your answer.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Greatest American composer? I don't know but I can say based on my more recent experience that Philip Glass is probably one of the better ones around. I bought a violin concerto CD and some symphonies. Enjoyable.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Most likely Philip Glass, Duke Ellington, Charles Ives, Aaron Copland (yuck IMO), Elliott Carter or George Gershwin.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Greatest American composer? I don't know but I can say based on my more recent experience that Philip Glass is probably one of the better ones around. I bought a violin concerto CD and some symphonies. Enjoyable.


I've got that recording. I have to say the recording with Eschenbach conducting is far better. By the way, someone should tell the ABC, that this was his _first_ violin concerto (not his only one.)

Actually, I just asked Marion Arnold to play the second one on Your Requests.


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## tahnak

These are the greatest in the descending order as per my instincts:
1. Charles Ives
2. Samuel Barber
3. Aaron Copland
4. Alan Hovhaness
5. George Gershwin
6. Edward MacDowell
7. Howard Hanson
8. Roy Harris
9. William Schuman
10. Gian Carlo Menotti
11. Philip Glass
12.Leonard Bernstein


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Goodness gracious! How could I forget Barber and Bernstein?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

I started a thread recently about Howard Hanson's symphonies, if anyone is interested.

http://www.talkclassical.com/16576-howard-hanson-symphonies.html


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I have _never_ heard of Howard Hanson before. Will look him up on YouTube.


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## norman bates

Kevin Pearson said:


> Howard Hanson, David Diamond,Meredith Wilson


I've never heard anything of their music, any example?

Anyway, it seems to me that the contribution of the jazz composers is a bit underrated because often is limited to simple forms. So if i have to say my favorites, i'd go with Wayne Shorter, Andrew Hill and Sun ra (Sun ra is a strange case because in a sense he was more than a composer). I feel that their harmonic sofistication is still unsurpassed, at least in jazz music. 
Than Monk, who i feel is the most influential jazz composer ever, even more than Ellington or Shorter. 
About Ellington, i love a lot of his music (i know just a fraction of his immense work), but i've always had a soft spot for the romantic compositions of Strayhorn, not because of the romanticism but because i think i dig more his sense of harmony in pieces like Daybreak, Chelsea bridge, Star crossed lovers, On a turquoise cloud, Blood count, Lush life, Isfahan etc.


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## Chi_townPhilly

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Most likely Philip Glass, Duke Ellington, Charles Ives, Aaron Copland (yuck IMO), Elliott Carter or *George Gershwin.* (emphasis mine)


All right. Cool. We got to Gershwin by page 3 (even if was the the sixth mention on an unordered list).

What we get with Gershwin is-
1) The most recorded symphonic composition written by an American _(Rhapsody in Blue)_
2) The most frequently performed concerto written by an American _(Concerto in F)_
3) The most well-established repertory opera written by an American _(Porgy & Bess)_
4) Irreplaceable reams of contributions to "The Great American Songbook."

(And keep in mind all of this was accomplished prior to a tragic death at age 38.)

It's okay not to _like_ Gershwin- to consider him not to be among one's favorites-- but really, any list of great American composers that doesn't have Gershwin at least on the podium reveals itself to be informed predominantly by the personal taste of the individual making the list. [A little bit , a little bit ]


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## norman bates

Chi_townPhilly said:


> but really, any list of great American composers that doesn't have Gershwin at least on the podium reveals itself to be informed predominantly by the personal taste of the individual making the list. [A little bit , a little bit ][/COLOR]


my problem with this kind of polls about the "greatest" composers is that it's not clear what greatness is, in the sense that everybody has his own interpretation. If we consider his influence and his popularity, i think that there's no discussion: Gerswhin is for sure one of the most influential and popular american composers, if not THE most influential and popular american composer. After all, ahead of its time as he was, Ives wasn't so influential and he certainly wasn't popular and i don't think that Copland is influential as other composers.
If we're talking instead of music i think it's different (though i would still put Gershwin in a list of favorites, i don't know if i would put him on the podium but in my favorites for sure).


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## Kevin Pearson

> Originally Posted by Kevin Pearson
> Howard Hanson, David Diamond,Meredith Wilson





norman bates said:


> I've never heard anything of their music, any example?


I'm not sure what kind of examples you would like. Do you want links on YouTube or Spotify? Or do you just want suggested compositions? A quick search on Spotify will produce material by all three. If you don't have Spotify you should. It's a great way to hear new music without investing a fortune.

Anyway I will recommend the following:

*Howard Hanson*

His 7 symphonies are all great but the one he is most known for is his 2nd called The Romantic (one of my most frequently played symphonies in my collection). Gerard Schwartz recorded all these plus some other of his orchestral work. His piano sontas are really nice. Naxos released a volume recorded by Thomas Labe. I also really enjoy his Conerto for Organ, Harp and Strings.

*Meredith Wilson*

Meredith Wilson is mostly known today for his Broadway hit *The Music Man*. What most people don't know is that he composed two very excellent symphonies. Well worth checking out. Available on Naxos and interestingly enough by the Moscow Symphony Orchestra.

*David Diamond *

Diamond wrote 11 symphonies but I don't think they are all recorded....yet! Gerard Schwartz recorded the first four and his violin concerto. All excellent! I believe these are now available on Naxos. His 8th symphony is also on Naxos. I also have a recording of his chamber music that is very good.

All three are worth exploring in my opinion. I hope you find them. If you need spotify links let me know and I'll be glad to post them but they come up on search pretty easily.

Kevin


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## science

I'm not the one to judge, but the objectively correct answer is Ellington, followed by Ives. At that point it's negotiable, but I can imagine good arguments for Glass, Reich, Barber, Adams, Foster, among others. 

Incidentally, if "American" includes Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Cuba and so on, the answer is still Ellington at #1, but I might put Piazzolla at #2.


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## MJongo

1. Charles Ives
2. Charles Mingus
3. Don Van Vliet


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## bigshot

Charles Ives, Duke Ellington and Frank Zappa

Edit: Oooo! I didn't look at the end of the thread before posting my picks and look at the one above me. Not too different.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Griffes is not a name to forget. 

But I will measure greatness by _fame_, not just talent. There are tons of talented American composers, but only a few are celebrated.

By fame: Gerswhin, Barber, and Copland are top 3 for classical, all pretty equal. John Williams, Ives, Bernstein, maybe Glass join top 7. Yes, I put John Williams there because he's so freakin' famous it _has _to count for something. Then comes everyone else of which there are numerous talented composers. And I dearly love many of them.


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## clavichorder

I heard a really obscure late 19th, early 20th century American composer by the name of Arthur Foote live once at my local symphony that happens to be known for its American composer fixation. Arthur Foote is by no means great, but he is a skilled late romantic American composer, and also the first person to ever graduate from an American college with a degree in music composition. He sounds a bit Brahmsian to my ears, but I haven't heard him in a long time.

Look Dodecaplex, he wrote a fugue:


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## elgar's ghost

Anybody here like Louis Moreau Gottschalk? What music I've heard of his sounds pretty colourful and I gather he was one of the first American composers, if not THE first, to be big news in some of the musical strongholds of Europe.


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## lukecubed

Ives is the only American composer I care for. I guess Barber's got some moments. I could happily never hear Copland/Gershwin/Cowell/Schumann/Hovhaness/etc. again. Never got the fascination.


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## opus55

Of the ones I've had chance to listen to, I like Barber, Ives and Piston. I've had good luck with Naxos American Classics series in general.


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## moody

tahnak said:


> These are the greatest in the descending order as per my instincts:
> 1. Charles Ives
> 2. Samuel Barber
> 3. Aaron Copland
> 4. Alan Hovhaness
> 5. George Gershwin
> 6. Edward MacDowell
> 7. Howard Hanson
> 8. Roy Harris
> 9. William Schuman
> 10. Gian Carlo Menotti
> 11. Philip Glass
> 12.Leonard Bernstein


Menotti never gave up his Italian citizenship so it is hard to count him as an American composer.
what about Charles Ruggles, anybody like him ?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

tahnak said:


> These are the greatest in the descending order as per my instincts:
> 1. Charles Ives
> 2. Samuel Barber
> 3. Aaron Copland
> 4. Alan Hovhaness
> 5. George Gershwin
> 6. Edward MacDowell
> 7. Howard Hanson
> 8. Roy Harris
> 9. William Schuman
> 10. Gian Carlo Menotti
> 11. Philip Glass
> 12.Leonard Bernstein


I think Carter deserves to be in there too.


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## moody

elgars ghost said:


> Anybody here like Louis Moreau Gottschalk? What music I've heard of his sounds pretty colourful and I gather he was one of the first American composers, if not THE first, to be big news in some of the musical strongholds of Europe.


I don't know whether Gottschalk can be called the greatest but he's easily the most fascinating.
Louis Moreau Gottschalk was born in New Orleans in 1829, his father was English from a Spanish Jewish family , his mother had connections with French aristocracy. he was musically precocious and was sent to France where he was refused entry to the Paris Conservatoire. But he studied with Berlioz and Chopin was convinced that he had a great future "he will be a king among pianists". His friends and acquaintances included Saint-Saens, Meyerbeer and Offenbach. He became a sensation loved across Europe, at one time he lived at the Spanish Court by invitation of the Queen.we must not forget that at that time composers wrote music to play themselves (he was a contemporary of Liszt) and the music was extraordinary. He was undoubtedly the first important American composer , he was also apparently a great lover ! He returned to America in 1857.
His compositions include pieces that could have been written by Chopin, Louisiana Dances such as "La Bamboula", Spanish, Cuban, West Indian, his "The Banjo--American Sketch" is a forerunner of ragtime, Latin American and French.
He staged festivals, monster concerts and encouraged young talent . A few of his more esoteric works include:
Grand Tarantelle for piano and orchestra, "A Night In the Tropics" Symphony, it's really an extended rhapsody on dance themes, the second movement includes the Samba with lots of Afro-Cuban percussion, he wrote two operas but they are lost for the moment at least, a one act opera "Cuban Country Scenes" a grand symphony for ten pianos "The Siege of Saragossa",Variations On the Portugese National Anthem for piano and orchestra, "The Union" Concert Paraphrase For Piano and Orchestra inc. "Yankee Doodle", "The Stars and Stripes", "Hail Columbia", the Marcha Solemne Brasiliera for orchestra and bands which ends up with the Brazilian National Anthem.
He also found time to go on a two year tour with 14 year old Adelina Patti who became the greatest soprano and ended up living in a castle in Wales. During the American Civil War he sided with the Union although he was a southerner. He worked his way into the ground giving concerts to raise funds.
In 1869 he contracted yellow fever in Brazil and died at the piano rehearsing his work "Morte". He was just forty years of age.
Once again we owe the rediscovery of ths music to the late great pianist Eugene List.


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## samurai

I have really gotten to like Walter Piston and Aaron Copland.


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## NightHawk

My shortest list would be:

Ives
Carter


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## Vaneyes

I think Barber and Carter are the leaders by a considerable margin. Most history books probably say Copland and Gershwin.

At the fork early in his career road, Copland veered off to Americana. If he'd chosen the other, in my estimation, he would've been alongside Barber and Carter. He milked that rodeo stuff for decades. What a waste of a great talent.

I am now donning my protective gear.


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## norman bates

Isn't Ernest Bloch american? Or is he considered Swiss? Because it's strange no one mentioned a composer who composed quartets that are considered by many the most important compositions of the century in the genre with those of Bartok and Shostakovich.


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## violadude

norman bates said:


> Isn't Ernest Bloch american? Or is he considered Swiss? Because it's strange no one mentioned a composer who composed quartets that are considered by many the most important compositions of the century in the genre with those of Bartok and Shostakovich.


Are they really?


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## norman bates

violadude said:


> Are they really?


i don't know, i have difficulties with the notion of "greatest something" (my ignorance is huge), but i think it's great music. Actually there are critics that considered the second the greatest quartet from the time of Beethoven. I can't say if it's true, but it's music that deserve more than a listen for sure.






anyway, today it seems that are largely forgotten, the quartets of Carter are much more "popular".


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## mleghorn

Not to make light of all the great American composers, but I put Barber head and shoulders above them all.


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## Crudblud

Zappa, Beefheart, Zappa, Ives, Zappa, Gershwin... and Zappa.


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## violadude

norman bates said:


> i don't know, i have difficulties with the notion of "greatest something" (my ignorance is huge), but i think it's great music. Actually there are critics that considered the second the greatest quartet from the time of Beethoven. I can't say if it's true, but it's music that deserve more than a listen for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anyway, today it seems that are largely forgotten, the quartets of Carter are much more "popular".


Ya, I agree that his quartets are great, but I believe they are generally considered "second tier" quartets. Not that it matters when you're listening to them.


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## Argus

Greatest = ?

Most talented = Prince Rogers Nelson


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## Guest

Indeed!

And if the only thing that matters is what happens when you're listening, then....

My desire as a listener is to listen to as much music as possible, no matter where the composers were born, no matter where they rank on some anonymous "generally considered" list, no matter anything except hearing as much as possible and getting out of it as much as I am able, given my particular limitations and prejudices.

:tiphat:

It might be more instructive to have a thread on "the greatest (type of) listener," though the personal attacks so endemic to online fora might get even endemicker.


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## norman bates

violadude said:


> but I believe they are generally considered "second tier" quartets. them.


i don't know, everywhere i've read something about it's all superlatives, but i'm curious, any example?


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## norman bates

Argus said:


> Greatest = ?
> 
> Most talented = Prince Rogers Nelson


the ballad of dorothy parker is a great piece indeed


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## moody

some guy said:


> Indeed!
> 
> And if the only thing that matters is what happens when you're listening, then....
> 
> My desire as a listener is to listen to as much music as possible, no matter where the composers were born, no matter where they rank on some anonymous "generally considered" list, no matter anything except hearing as much as possible and getting out of it as much as I am able, given my particular limitations and prejudices.
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> It might be more instructive to have a thread on "the greatest (type of) listener," though the personal attacks so endemic to online fora might get even endemicker.


I am definitely the greatest type of listener, I feel it in my bones. I could've been a contender you know!


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## moody

Argus said:


> Greatest = ?
> 
> Most talented = Prince Rogers Nelson


He must be ---and what exactly is he a prince of?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I'm sorry I think all of you are confused about who *THE GREATEST* American composer actually is.

Elliott Carter! Here he is (at 103 years old)


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## Argus

norman bates said:


> the ballad of dorothy parker is a great piece indeed


I don't even like _that_ much Prince but I can recognise his immense talent. Here's one of my favourites of his (featuring some tasty sax):








moody said:


> He must be ---and what exactly is he a prince of?


Funk, pop and the colour purple.


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## violadude

norman bates said:


> i don't know, everywhere i've read something about it's all superlatives, but i'm curious, any example?


Examples of supposed second tier string quartets? or first?


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## norman bates

violadude said:


> Examples of supposed second tier string quartets? or first?


No, i'd like to read any more critic opinion of the quartets of Bloch, because i've read only extremely positive comments. I'm always curious to listen to the other bell, to use an italian expression.


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## Romantic Geek

Good grief...not _one_ mention of Amy Beach? I think she may be the best one of the Boston Six/Second New England School.

I'm not sure who I'd say the best is, but Ives, Barber, Copland, Gershwin, Beach, Bernstein, Carter (even though I personally hate his music)...these are the guys I'd consider.

Other names that have probably been neglected: Bolcom and Adams

Names I'd rather not hear on this list at all: Glass

Names I'm glad to see, but don't think they deserve to be on this list: Gottschalk, Griffes, Foote, Bloch (yes, I consider him American)

As far as jazzers, hard not to mention Ellington, Mingus, and Thelonious Monk (!!!!)


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## norman bates

Romantic Geek said:


> Other names that have probably been neglected: Bolcom


i know only to few pieces of him, some modern interpretation of ragtime music, i'd like to listen more of him. What are his best works for you?


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## Romantic Geek

norman bates said:


> i know only to few pieces of him, some modern interpretation of ragtime music, i'd like to listen more of him. What are his best works for you?


His rags are good, but also listen to his "post-modern" style (god, I hate that term...)

His violin sonatas are a good place to start.


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## NightHawk

My favs: Charles Ives, Carl Ruggles, Elliott Carter, Aaron Copland, Samuel Barber, William Schumann, Steve Reich and Philip Glass on the classical side.

Jazz - Ellington, Mingus, Monk, Coletrane, Davis, Dexter Gordon, (this list should be longer, but I have no time to explore)

Pop - Joni Mitchell = most sophisticated use of harmony, rhythm and text setting to date in the genre, listen to album 'Blue', the tragically late Jeff Buckley = unbelievable voice and songwriting talents listen to album 'Grace', Bob Dylan (heard album 'Blood On The Tracks', lately?).

No disrespect, but E. Smith's studio 'treatment' of his voice is annoying, and I would like the songs better if the voice was 'real'. You also have the advantage of live performance, and I do not...that counts for a lot.

That's all from West Side.



DavidMahler said:


> Who do you think it is?
> 
> All musics allowed, not just classical if you prefer.


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## norman bates

@romantic geek: thank you 



NightHawk said:


> Jazz - Ellington, Mingus, Monk, Coletrane, Davis, Dexter Gordon, (this list should be longer, but I have no time to explore)


anyway people like Wayne Shorter, Andrew Hill or Herbie Nichols are really worthy of consideration for their compositional skills and their unique use of harmony. Shorter is well known (and by the way, Joni Mitchell consider him a genius), but Hill and Nichols are still really underrated.


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## MrPlayerismus

I don't know if anyone mentioned him,but George Antheil is a pretty good composer,not awesome,but he has his really good moments in music.


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## Romantic Geek

MrPlayerismus said:


> I don't know if anyone mentioned him,but George Antheil is a pretty good composer,not awesome,but he has his really good moments in music.


He'd be on my "Glad he was mentioned, but not deserving of the honor" section. Good composer, not great.


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## PetrB

LOL. Ives, Carter. 'BIG BOYS' Terry Riley and Reich's music, and influence, won't float away into the nether regions of music history very soon, Cage's work forced thought, the effect of which transformed thinking about music and music itself, and that will never be ignored.

I can only conclude the OP's love of E. Smith is personal, with some personal sentimental attachment to a tune and / or lyric, because it is otherwise so imbalanced in comparison, say, to either Barber, Peter Lieberson, Gershwin, Harold Arlen, and dozens of other 'high craft' American songwriters as to seem beyond a rational 'objective' pick.


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## Zauberberg

Lil' B without question.


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## PetrB

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> You wrote in another thread recently telling us that you work part time at a local CD/record shop. If a customer walks into the shop and asks for your recommendation of the "best" works along the lines of this thread, is this your answer to your customer, I wonder? You may also assume I am your employer/shop owner standing next to you awaiting your answer.


_(Ach! Oy vey ist mir!)_
You forgot to assume the employer might have hired him for who he is what he thinks and that his recommendations are not monitored to agree with yours, or meet this 'challenge.'


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## PetrB

violadude said:


> Are they really?


I think that is a personal empirical opinion: I mean, hey, someone else earnestly puts Elliot Smith WAAAAAY Up There, making part of this thread, at least imho a serious joke


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## PetrB

norman bates said:


> i know only to few pieces of him, some modern interpretation of ragtime music, i'd like to listen more of him. What are his best works for you?


Try his 'Twelve New Études' for piano.


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## oogabooha

Steve Reich
Leonard Bernstein
George Crumb

(this doesn't even include jazz composers. this is also very limiting, seeing as I think the top 3 are the most influential/_greatest_, but there are so many more great [american] composers)

however, if you were talking about songwriters/arrangers/etc.

Stephin Merritt
George Gershwin
Brian Wilson


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## oogabooha

DavidMahler said:


> When a melody is right, it's perfect, it doesn't need to be justified or explained in cadences or theory.


Yes, but how you arrive to and view that melody is the difference between a composer and an artist. There are always exceptions and it is quite difficult to put human expression and emotion in a linear line, but a composer [at least in my opinion] is someone who views composition from a theoretical, musical form and takes it from there, while an artist/songwriter usually uses the medium of music to paint their images. I'm not devaluing either form, but there _is_ a difference in approach.


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## aleazk

In my list, Carter, Ives, Gershwin. Special mention, Reich, Cage.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Frank Zappa

as Varese was French born.


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## KenOC

Greatest American-born composer? Ludwig van Beethoven was born in Philadelphia in early October, 1770. His parents soon returned to Bonn, where he was baptized on December 17 of that year. This is well known, although Wikipedia somehow missed it.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

I thought Mozart was born in Cuba too......

here is the web page http://www.sonyclassical.de/klazzbrothers/e_mozart_meets_cuba.html


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## Weston

No one has mentioned *Lukas Foss*? It's probably because he wasn't born in the US, but I would rank him very high. His American Landscapes is remarkable.





I'll second clavichorder's nomination of *Arthur Foote* some months ago. American music did not suddenly start with Ives.

Mention must also be made of *Bernard Hermann* and *Wendy Carlos* and *Morton Subotnik*.

But, yes, my favorite is probably Barber.


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## KenOC

John Knowles Paine was the first real orchestral composer in the US. His Symphony No. 2 "In Spring" (1879) is well worth hearing.


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## TheVioletKing

My favorite American born composers are: Leonard Bernstein, Samuel Barber, Steve Reich, John Adams, Eric Whitacre, John Mackey, and Frank Ticheli.


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## farmerjohn

I think Stephen Foster should not be overlooked.

The likes of Camptown Races, Old Folks At Home, Hard Times Come Again No More and Oh! Susanna are beautiful songs that have been loved the world over for generations. 

This music can truly be said to have stood the test of time.


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## Bone

Elliott Carter. Or Frank Zappa.


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## Crudblud

Bone said:


> Elliott Carter. Or Frank Zappa.


Switch their places and you have my thoughts on the matter.


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## KenOC

Well, I'd say Aaron Copland but everybody would sneer at me. And in fact, those prancing cowboys do rub me the wrong way a bit.

John Adams has some interesting reminiscences in his "Driving Mr. Copland."

http://earbox.com/posts/118


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## violadude

KenOC said:


> Well, I'd say Aaron Copland but everybody would sneer at me. And in fact, those prancing cowboys do rub me the wrong way a bit.
> 
> John Adams has some interesting reminiscences in his "Driving Mr. Copland."
> 
> http://earbox.com/posts/118


I wouldn't sneer. Copland is cool!


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## Quartetfore

I`m late on this thread, but has any one named George Gershwin?


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## Hausmusik

Assuming we are talking about those who composed for orchestral forces and orchestrated their own work: Gershwin is top of the list for me on the strength of P&B and the piano & orchestra works, followed by Ellington and Strayhorn, Barber, and (grudgingly) Copland. C. is inescapable and a major composer, doubtless. I just don't like Americana.

If we are talking about songwriters, the list would be very long, beginning with all of the above, plus Sondheim, T. Monk, Arlen, Van Heusen, Berlin, Porter, Rodgers, Kern, Loesser, etc. etc. etc.


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## KenOC

I understand that Grofe orchestrated the Rhapsody in Blue. Did he (or anybody else) orchestrate others of Gershwins's works?


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## Hausmusik

KenOC said:


> I understand that Grofe orchestrated the Rhapsody in Blue. Did he (or anybody else) orchestrate others of Gershwins's works?


You are correct; however, according to the biographies I read a while back, after _Blue_ G.G. insisted on orchestrating his other major works himself: the Piano Concerto in F, _Porgy and Bess_, the second Rhapsody, and _An American in Paris_ (in any case, he claimed he did and no one else is officially credited.).

EDIT: I admit that if I found out Gershwin did not orchestrate P&B, it would probably diminish my opinion of him as a composer, though not as a songwriter. That's somewhat irrational, isn't it?


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## TheVioletKing

How come everyone ignores the American Concert Band composers?


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## KenOC

There doesn't seem to be much attention given to American concert band composers like M. Gould and Persichetti. But marching bands, now that's a different thing...


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## TheVioletKing

I know . When I was in band in High School, I dreaded Marching Band but loved Concert Band IDK why. 

People need to give Concert Band Literature a chance. I will agree to that fact that a large chunk of it is rather terrible, but there are some really good Concert band pieces out there.

I got to play Persichetti's Symphony No.6 in band last year and it was really fun. Junior year at Region, I got to play M. Gould's American Salute.


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## Tero




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## miroirs

John Cage. I really like Copland, Bernstein and Reich but Cage

Wow.


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## brotagonist

Offhand, the only American that comes to mind who is in my hearem is Elliott Carter. If he wrote it, I know I don't necessarily need to spend a lot of time listening to samples before ordering the album (but certain genres interest me more than others, of course).


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## arpeggio

I found the following website that records which American composers are most frequently mentioned on the internet. It is an impressive list.

I am familiar with the music of all these composers except Ariana Grande. I will have to check her out.

I am surprised that John Adams and Elliott are not on this list.

A few I do not care for.

If I had to pick one it would be Charles Ives

http://www.bing.com/search?q=greatest+american+composers&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&refig=8d4e2d5422474e4b8024f38459201d1a&qs=AS&pq=greatest+american+composer&sc=4-26&sp=1&cvid=8d4e2d5422474e4b8024f38459201d1a

This site has links to other web pages that some may find interesting.

I checked out Ariana Grande. There maybe some out there who would like this music. I am not one of them.


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## Ferrariman601

My vote goes to Leonard Bernstein.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

Samuel Barber, Aaron Copland, and John Williams are my favorites that come to mind. I'm not as big of a fan of Leonard Bernstein's compositions, but he's definitely in my top 5 conductors. I'm basing this solely on my ignorance of his music. I believe West Side Story is my only knowledge of his work.


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## arpeggio

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> Samuel Barber, Aaron Copland, and John Williams are my favorites that come to mind. I'm not as big of a fan of Leonard Bernstein's compositions, but he's definitely in my top 5 conductors. I'm basing this solely on my ignorance of his music. I believe West Side Story is my only knowledge of his work.


Bernstein:

I am not sure if he would be the greatest. Some of his music can be mundane. But he still composed some great works. You should check out:

His _First and Second Symphonies_
The ballet _Fancy Free_
The music he compose for film on the _On the Waterfront_. The suite that is extracted from the sound track is outstanding.
The _Symphonic Dances from West Side Story_ is a stand alone concert work. I have performed it.
_Chichester Psalms_
_Serenade for Violin, String Orchestra, Harp & Percussion (After Plato's Symposium_. I am listening to the I_Seranade_ as I am typing this.


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## MoonlightSonata

Copland and Barber are probably my favourites, but I wouldn't know which one of those two to choose.


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