# Scarlatti



## juliante

Listening to the gorgeously lyrical k466 this morning i felt surprised Scarlatti not more in the public domain. Do you have any favourite Scarlatti sonatas? I read somewhere that there are hardly any duds and my experience of dipping in has borne this out. But k466 does stand out of the ones i have taken notice of.


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## pianozach

I used to play a Scarlatti sonatina in C major. 

In fact, I was at a party Sunday, and there was a piano, and someone asked me to play; this work came to mind, and I started there, then transitioned into a piece of my own (a Toccata in C minor).


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## Animal the Drummer

Wonderful, inexhaustible music. Chopin didn't rate many other composers but Scarlatti was one of the few exceptions. Personal favourites would be K159 in C, K446 in F (Pastorale) and K521 in G but there is treasure in the sonatas everywhere you look.


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## Mandryka

Dreadful composer. A bunch of keyboard effects and no more than that. Shallow and repetitious music.


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## juliante

Hah now there’s two polarised experiences! Long live our unique responses to music.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Ralph Kirkpatrick, whose opinion certainly warrants respect, called Scarlatti the most original keyboard composer of his time. When Brahms sent a volume of Scarlatti sonatas to his friend Theodor Billroth, he wrote 'You will certainly enjoy these - as long as you don't play too many at a time, just measured doses.' For most listeners that seems sensible advice. For me, harpsichordist Igor Kipnis nicely captures in his brilliant recordings the blithely protean, virtuosic spirit of Scarlatti.


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## mmsbls

I agree that Scarlatti's sonatas are wonderful. I'm not sure I've ever heard one I did not like. Benjamin Firth's complete ( I believe) recordings on Naxos are quite nice.


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## ansfelden

my "black hole" of the baroque.


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## Kreisler jr

mmsbls said:


> I agree that Scarlatti's sonatas are wonderful. I'm not sure I've ever heard one I did not like. Benjamin Firth's complete ( I believe) recordings on Naxos are quite nice.


I believe the Naxos series is ongoing and Frith only plays on one or a few discs, the series is with many different pianists and the quality seems to vary quite a bit. (I agree that Frith's seems among the better ones of these series.)


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## pianozach

Mandryka said:


> Dreadful composer. A bunch of keyboard effects and no more than that. Shallow and repetitious music.


Don't be jealous.


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## advokat

Mandryka said:


> Dreadful composer. A bunch of keyboard effects and no more than that. Shallow and repetitious music.


Mandryka is a dreadful poster. A bunch of computer keyboard effects and no more than that. Shallow and repetitious posts.


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## NovAntiqua

the italian Mario Sollazzo recorded some Sonatas by Scarlatti: Domenico Scarlatti, Sonate
here one of them


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## Mandryka

advokat said:


> Mandryka is a dreadful poster. A bunch of computer keyboard effects and no more than that. Shallow and repetitious posts.


Ah yes, but in my posts there is the truth, and truth is the principal aim of language. In music there is no truth.


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## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> Ah yes, but in my posts there is the truth, and truth is the principal aim of language. In music there is no truth.


True, but Id rather listen to Scarlatti than read your posts


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## advokat

NovAntiqua said:


> the italian Mario Sollazzo recorded some Sonatas by Scarlatti: Domenico Scarlatti, Sonate
> here one of them


Thanks - just ordered the disc.


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## Kreisler jr

Mandryka said:


> Ah yes, but in my posts there is the truth, and truth is the principal aim of language. In music there is no truth.


It's also doubtful if there is "depth" in music, it has been claimed that music is mainly/really "surface", therefore shallow could a be a shallow complaint against Domenico Scarlatti..


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## Bulldog

About 20 years ago, I was a big fan of D. Scarlatti's harpsichord music, but continued listening has not gone very well.


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> It's also doubtful if there is "depth" in music, it has been claimed that music is mainly/really "surface", therefore shallow could a be a shallow complaint against Domenico Scarlatti..


I agree with Oskar Bie (_Das Klavier und seine Meister_ (1898) )

_In Scarlatti we seek in vain for any inner motive, nor do we feel any need of an emotional rendering on the part of the performer; his short pieces aim only at sound effects, and are written merely from the love of brilliant clavier-passages, or to embody delicate technical devices. They are not denizens of Paradise, who wander, unconscious of their naked beauty, under over-arching bowers; they are athletes, simply rejoicing in their physical strength, and raising gymnastic to a high, self-sufficient art. We admire them ... — not too much, yet with a certain eager anticipation of the next interesting and unusual feat of skill. We wonder at their mastery of technique, and the systematic development of their characteristic methods; we rejoice that they never, in their desire to please, abandon the standpoint of the sober artists; but our heart remain cold. There is an icy, virgin purity in this first off-shoot of absolute virtuosity, which kindles our sense for the art of beautiful mechanism, for the art of technique per se._


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## Bwv 1080

JS Bach > D Scarlatti > Handel & Rameau > Every other 18th century composer before Haydn

Brahms was a big fan, which is a better endorsement than Oskar Bie


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## Bwv 1080

Another couple of lyrical sonata favorites


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## Bwv 1080

then you have sonatas with a clear Spanish /.Flamenco influence, which seem clustered in Kirkpatrick-numbers in the high 100s / low 200s


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## Bwv 1080

Then Italian / Galant style sonatas which tend to be later works


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## Kreisler jr

Bwv 1080 said:


> JS Bach > D Scarlatti > Handel & Rameau > Every other 18th century composer before Haydn


What about Francois Couperin, do you count him with the 17th century?



> Brahms was a big fan, which is a better endorsement than Oskar Bie


Everyone is complaining about square and narrowminded German critics being horribly unfair to anyone outside the Austrogerman tradition and having a dire influence on history of music until it suits otherwise


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## Bwv 1080

Kreisler jr said:


> What about Francois Couperin, do you count him with the 17th century?


well 18 > 17, no?


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## deangelisj35

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Ralph Kirkpatrick, whose opinion certainly warrants respect, called Scarlatti the most original keyboard composer of his time. ...


More original that Bach?!


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## Bwv 1080

deangelisj35 said:


> More original that Bach?!


Was Bach that ‘original’? He did not use textures or harmonies different than his contemporaries, he just had a greater level of mastery. Scarlatti did unique things on the keyboard relative to his peers


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## RICK RIEKERT

Bwv 1080 said:


> Brahms was a big fan, which is a better endorsement than Oskar Bie


Bie was handicapped as a critic by knowing only a very small number of Scarlatti’s sonatas - the flamboyant _Essercizi_ and a limited number of other virtuoso show pieces. And he tended to hyperbolize about those he did know (they are 'a spectacle of fireworks'; 'arpeggios swell into monstrous bundles'; 'startling modulations', etc, etc.) Stating that Brahms was a 'big fan', however, is perhaps overstating the case. Brahms did use one or two sonatas for brief quotations in his own works, e.g. K. 223 is quoted in Brahms' song _Unüberwindlich. _He also used the sonatas extensively as examples in his written musical commentaries on parallel octaves and fifths. But his enthusiasm was qualified. As I indicated in an earlier post, he thought the sonatas were best listened to in small doses, and wrote to Clara Schumann that although he enjoyed playing individual works he was not "over-fond of Scarlatti owing to the similarity of his pieces (in form and character)."


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## Dirge

My earliest Scarlatti memory is of watching The “World Famous” Lipizzaner Stallions perform to K. 380 on ABC’s _Wide World of Sports_ back in the late ’60s/early ’70s. I had no idea what the music was at the time, but I remembered it when I heard it again some years later … about the time I began listening to classical music in earnest.

Since then, I’ve heard the better part of Scarlatti’s sonata output, certainly the most popular of the sonatas, and find that I revisit about a dozen of them somewhat regularly. That might not seem like an impressive number considering that there are 555 sonatas to be heard, but few composers have written a dozen works that I listen to with any regularity.

At any rate, here are my favorite Scarlatti sonatas (along with YouTube links to a favorite recording or two of each, performed on piano unless otherwise noted) …

K. 8 in G minor
:: Marcelle Meyer [Les Discophiles français ’48]
:: Sergei Babayan [Pro Piano ’95]

K. 9 in D minor
:: Marcelle Meyer [Les Discophiles français ’54/’55]

K. 27 in B minor
:: Marcelle Meyer [Les Discophiles français ’54/’55]

K. 87 in B minor
:: Anthony di Bonaventura [Connoisseur Society ’72]
:: Igor Kipnis [EMI ’76?] ~ on clavichord

K. 141 in D minor
:: Anthony di Bonaventura [Connoisseur Society ’72]

K. 208 in A major
:: Peter Katin [Claudio ’85]
:: Scott Ross [Erato ’85] ~ on harpsichord

K. 213 in D minor
:: Claire Huangci [Berlin Classics ’14]

K. 239 in F minor
:: Alexandre Tharaud [Virgin ’10]

K. 380 in E major
:: Wanda Landowska [HMV ’34] ~ on Pleyel harpsichord
:: Mikhail Pletnev [Virgin ’94]

K. 466 in F minor
:: Vladimir Horowitz [Columbia ’64]

K. 481 in F minor
:: Vladimir Horowitz [Columbia ’64]

K. 491 in D major
:: Vladimir Horowitz [Columbia ’64]


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## Mandryka

Dirge said:


> My earliest Scarlatti memory is of watching The “World Famous” Lipizzaner Stallions perform to K. 380 on ABC’s _Wide World of Sports_ back in the late ’60s/early ’70s. I had no idea what the music was at the time, but I remembered it when I heard it again some years later … about the time I began listening to classical music in earnest.
> 
> Since then, I’ve heard the better part of Scarlatti’s sonata output, certainly the most popular of the sonatas, and find that I revisit about a dozen of them somewhat regularly. That might not seem like an impressive number considering that there are 555 sonatas to be heard, but few composers have written a dozen works that I listen to with any regularity.
> 
> At any rate, here are my favorite Scarlatti sonatas (along with YouTube links to a favorite recording or two of each, performed on piano unless otherwise noted) …
> 
> K. 8 in G minor
> :: Marcelle Meyer [Les Discophiles français ’48]
> :: Sergei Babayan [Pro Piano ’95]
> 
> K. 9 in D minor
> :: Marcelle Meyer [Les Discophiles français ’54/’55]
> 
> K. 27 in B minor
> :: Marcelle Meyer [Les Discophiles français ’54/’55]
> 
> K. 87 in B minor
> :: Anthony di Bonaventura [Connoisseur Society ’72]
> :: Igor Kipnis [EMI ’76?] ~ on clavichord
> 
> K. 141 in D minor
> :: Anthony di Bonaventura [Connoisseur Society ’72]
> 
> K. 208 in A major
> :: Peter Katin [Claudio ’85]
> :: Scott Ross [Erato ’85] ~ on harpsichord
> 
> K. 213 in D minor
> :: Claire Huangci [Berlin Classics ’14]
> 
> K. 239 in F minor
> :: Alexandre Tharaud [Virgin ’10]
> 
> K. 380 in E major
> :: Wanda Landowska [HMV ’34] ~ on Pleyel harpsichord
> :: Mikhail Pletnev [Virgin ’94]
> 
> K. 466 in F minor
> :: Vladimir Horowitz [Columbia ’64]
> 
> K. 481 in F minor
> :: Vladimir Horowitz [Columbia ’64]
> 
> K. 491 in D major
> :: Vladimir Horowitz [Columbia ’64]


If you’re interested in his music on a modern piano, then the one I suggest you try is Nikolai Demidenko. There are a couple of CDs, one much better than the other IMO - if you’re interested I’ll dig out the details.


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## JeffD

juliante said:


> Hah now there’s two polarised experiences! Long live our unique responses to music.


I expect nothing less from this crowd!


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## Laraine Anne Barker

deangelisj35 said:


> More original that Bach?!


When I found Scarlatti I certainly thought him very original. I've never considered Bach original. His son CPE beats him hands down for originality .


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## RICK RIEKERT

This is how the eminent Bach and Scarlatti scholar Malcolm Boyd sums it up: "_If originality were the only criterion of genius, and if it were to be measured by the ability and readiness of a composer to seek out new techniques, to keep abreast of changing aesthetics and to bend accepted rules and conventions to his own ends, then Scarlatti would have to be judged a greater figure than either Bach or Handel."_


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## Mandryka

Domenico Scarlatti's predecessors and, I suggest, his influencers

Alessandro Scarlatti: Toccata for harpsichord in G minor - YouTube

Francesco Durante - Sonata in Re maggiore - Paola Talamini - YouTube

Pasquini: Sonata X. (part) - YouTube

A. Corelli - Concerto Grosso op. 6 n. 4 for two Harpsichords - YouTube

Vivaldi Winter - Harpsichord Version - YouTube


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## Mandryka

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> When I found Scarlatti I certainly thought him very original. I've never considered Bach original. His son CPE beats him hands down for originality .


Have you heard J. S. Bach's chaconne from the second violin Partita? Or the solo keyboard movement from BWV 1019? Or the Leipzig Chorales


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> This is how the eminent Bach and Scarlatti scholar Malcolm Boyd sums it up: "_If originality were the only criterion of genius, and if it were to be measured by the ability and readiness of a composer to seek out new techniques, to keep abreast of changing aesthetics and to bend accepted rules and conventions to his own ends, then Scarlatti would have to be judged a greater figure than either Bach or Handel."_


Yes well he may be more of a genius than Handel, we can agree about that.


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## Laraine Anne Barker

RICK RIEKERT said:


> This is how the eminent Bach and Scarlatti scholar Malcolm Boyd sums it up: "_If originality were the only criterion of genius, and if it were to be measured by the ability and readiness of a composer to seek out new techniques, to keep abreast of changing aesthetics and to bend accepted rules and conventions to his own ends, then Scarlatti would have to be judged a greater figure than either Bach or Handel."_


Quite right too. Even scholars disagree. Eric Blom (if memory serves me right) considered K614 to be the finest of Mozart's string quintets while another wrote some scathing comments that unfortunately I can't remember. Something about a bad wind arrangement, a textural failure and a stylistic mastery, except for the slow movement. Haydn came into it somewhere too. It was in The Mozart Companion, a collection of essays by various musical scholars.I can't find my copy.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> Quite right too. Even scholars disagree. Eric Blom (if memory serves me right) considered K614 to be the finest of Mozart's string quintets while another wrote some scathing comments that unfortunately I can't remember. Something about a bad wind arrangement, a textural failure and a stylistic mastery, except for the slow movement. Haydn came into it somewhere too. It was in The Mozart Companion, a collection of essays by various musical scholars.I can't find my copy.


Yes Laraine, scholars certainly can disagree. My own feeling is that their conclusions are usually less important than understanding how they got there. At least that way we can learn from them. K. 614 was clearly not to Hans Keller's taste - hence the scathing remark: "a bad arrangement of a wind piece in mock-Haydn style" written by a man likely suffering from ill-health. Keller had his own peculiar method of musical analysis called wordless functional analysis, which was influenced in part by Freud's theory of dreams. Perhaps it would have been best if Keller's assessment of K.614 had itself remained wordless.


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## Laraine Anne Barker

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Yes Laraine, scholars certainly can disagree. My own feeling is that their conclusions are usually less important than understanding how they got there. At least that way we can learn from them. K. 614 was clearly not to Hans Keller's taste - hence the scathing remark: "a bad arrangement of a wind piece in mock-Haydn style" written by a man likely suffering from ill-health. Keller had his own peculiar method of musical analysis called wordless functional analysis, which was influenced in part by Freud's theory of dreams. Perhaps it would have been best if Keller's assessment of K.614 had itself remained wordless.


Thank you, Rick. I thought it was Keller who said that. I still can't work out what he meant. I'm on Blom's side. My favourite Vivaldi has always been the Sonatas for Cello and continuo, but I was surprised when I saw one Gramophone critic write something to the effect that "if you've found Vivaldi's cello sonatas less than interesting". That astonished me because Vivaldi was at the height of his powers when he wrote these. They are top quality works.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Laraine, I agree that Vivaldi’s cello sonatas are the cream of the best cello works of the time. The Gramophone reviewer may have been alluding to the fact that if you only look at what is written on the page they are not very demanding from the technical point of view and for the last 100 years have often been given to students and amateurs to perform. If one has only heard a straight, unembellished performance of the sonatas with no hint of improvisational craziness it could indeed prove “less than interesting”.


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## premont

I think Vivaldi's e-minor cello sonata may be rather impressive, even unadorned.


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## hammeredklavier

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Yes Laraine, scholars certainly can disagree. My own feeling is that their conclusions are usually less important than understanding how they got there.


And they tend to be more ignorant than we might think. Other than the surface quotation of a theme in the final movement ("this must surely be a heartfelt tribute to the Papa Haydn he feared he might never see again." -Geraint Lewis), there's not really anything that makes it particularly "mock-Haydn style" (or "Haydn style" for that matter). eg. The variations in the slow movement are more reminiscent of those of MH411, MH412:


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## hammeredklavier

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> I was surprised when I saw one Gramophone critic write something to the effect that "if you've found Vivaldi's cello sonatas less than interesting".


That critic was probably Stravinsky.


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## hammeredklavier

I once came across this meticulously worked-out ranking of every Scarlatti sonata -

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicalmusic/comments/hfo35l


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## hammeredklavier

RICK RIEKERT said:


> He also used the sonatas extensively as examples in his written musical commentaries on parallel octaves and fifths.






discusses Scarlatti K.25 @7:19


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## Laraine Anne Barker

premont said:


> I think Vivaldi's e-minor cello sonata may be rather impressive, even unadorned.


Several of the period instrument performances rather overdo things. Vivaldi's fast movements should dance, but the dancers shouldn't have clogged feet. I keep going back to Coin and Hogwood, who was a very imaginative and sensitive continuo leader. I agree with Coin that you don't need a cello in the continuo, and a double bass is even worse.


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## SanAntone

juliante said:


> Listening to the gorgeously lyrical k466 this morning i felt surprised Scarlatti not more in the public domain. Do you have any favourite Scarlatti sonatas? I read somewhere that there are hardly any duds and my experience of dipping in has borne this out. But k466 does stand out of the ones i have taken notice of.


When I listen to the sonatas I always enjoy them, but don't know them well enough to have favorites. Recently the 2019 *Lucas Debargue* recording of 52 sonatas has been my go-to set.


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## Laraine Anne Barker

SanAntone said:


> When I listen to the sonatas I always enjoy them, but don't know them well enough to have favorites. Recently the 2019 *Lucas Debargue* recording of 52 sonatas has been my go-to set.


Like Juliante I don't know them enough to have favourites. My recording is rather old too (Pinnock, 1987). But I cut my teeth on Horowitz's performance on LP so favourites are likely to be among the ones he recorded.


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## premont

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> Several of the period instrument performances rather overdo things. Vivaldi's fast movements should dance, but the dancers shouldn't have clogged feet. I keep going back to Coin and Hogwood, who was a very imaginative and sensitive continuo leader. I agree with Coin that you don't need a cello in the continuo, and a double bass is even worse.


I got - long time ago - to know the e-minor sonata in the arrangement by Vincent D'Indy for cello and strings in the two Fournier recordings (with Münchinger and Baumgartner respectively). Not essential HIP but impressive all the same as usually with Fournier.


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## Laraine Anne Barker

premont said:


> I got - long time ago - to know the e-minor sonata in the arrangement by Vincent D'Indy for cello and strings in the two Fournier recordings (with Münchinger and Baumgartner respectively). Not essential HIP but impressive all the same as usually with Fournier.


One thing I did notice in the old LP days was that French musicians were a lot better at playing Baroque music than other nationalities. When the period instrument movement started (I didn't hear about it until the mid seventies but I took to it in a flash) there was a lot of sneering but I always had faith that it would survive. Baroque violins and violas must be so much harder to play than modern ones. Now even modern instrumentalists daren't ignore the "HIP" movement.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I used to think Scarlatti was trivial, but Maria Tipo's recordings really unlocked the music for me—she unveils a delicate lyricism and poetry in the music that is really lovely. It's some of the most sensitive pianism I've heard; a pity she isn't better known. I also love Michael Korstick's recent recording; it's properly punchy and spicy when needed and turns it into truly exciting and dramatic music. Pogorelich is a bit too idiosyncratic for me and Horowitz too polite and dainty.


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## Laraine Anne Barker

I agree about Horowitz. The same problem occurs in a lot of Mozart recordings on modern piano. These days I wouldn't want Scarlartti on the piano anyway.


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## bagpipers

I like the Segovia guitar transcriptions too.For keyboard I prefer piano I honestly don't care for the sound of a harpsichord.


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## Mandryka

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> I agree about Horowitz. The same problem occurs in a lot of Mozart recordings on modern piano. These days I wouldn't want Scarlartti on the piano anyway.


Scarlatti may well have composed some of the music for piano, Maria Magdalena Barbara had access to pianos. Some of the music arguably fits pianos really well, better than other keyboard instruments. Before dismissing piano as not for you, maybe try to hear Anna Zylberajch.


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## Laraine Anne Barker

bagpipers said:


> I like the Segovia guitar transcriptions too.For keyboard I prefer piano I honestly don't care for the sound of a harpsichord.


Since I cut my teeth on the monstrosity Landowska fondly imagined was a harpsichord, I'm surprised I don't dislike it too. Then there was the fact the harpsichord wasn't too well recorded in LP days, not to mention the instruments were the 20th centuries idea of a harpsichord; better sounding than Landowska's Pleyel, but that's about all. Mostly recording studios seem to get it right today. Hantaï's Goldberg for instance.


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## Laraine Anne Barker

Sorry. Centuries should be century's.


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## premont

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> One thing I did notice in the old LP days was that French musicians were a lot better at playing Baroque music than other nationalities. When the period instrument movement started (I didn't hear about it until the mid seventies but I took to it in a flash) there was a lot of sneering but I always had faith that it would survive. Baroque violins and violas must be so much harder to play than modern ones. Now even modern instrumentalists daren't ignore the "HIP" movement.


I'm not sure this is true. Think of Reinhold Barcher, Susanne Lautenbacher, Kurt Redel, Karl Ristenpart, Fritz Neumeier in Germany and in my country Mogens Wöldike, Poul Birkelund and Finn Viderø. And I could mention many from other countries. All of these at least at the level of any French musicians of the time.


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## premont

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> Since I cut my teeth on the monstrosity Landowska fondly imagined was a harpsichord, I'm surprised I don't dislike it too. Then there was the fact the harpsichord wasn't too well recorded in LP days, not to mention the instruments were the 20th centuries idea of a harpsichord; better sounding than Landowska's Pleyel, but that's about all. Mostly recording studios seem to get it right today. Hantaï's Goldberg for instance.


The essential thing was that Wanda Landowska's Scarlatti recordings - despite the monstrous instrument - possessed a kind of poetry which was immediately catching.


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## Allegro Con Brio

The common reaction to Landowska is a prime example of how tastes differ. Give me that rich, guitar-like tone any day over the jangly, monochrome sound of period harpsichords (I have come to tolerate the harpsichord in small dosages, and some period instruments sound better than others).


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## Laraine Anne Barker

premont said:


> The essential thing was that Wanda Landowska's Scarlatti recordings - despite the monstrous instrument - possessed a kind of poetry which was immediately catching.


She was a wonderful musician. It's just a shame she thought she needed an instrument that could fill the Albert Hall.


Allegro Con Brio said:


> The common reaction to Landowska is a prime example of how tastes differ. Give me that rich, guitar-like tone any day over the jangly, monochrome sound of period harpsichords (I have come to tolerate the harpsichord in small dosages, and some period instruments sound better than others).





Allegro Con Brio said:


> The common reaction to Landowska is a prime example of how tastes differ. Give me that rich, guitar-like tone any day over the jangly, monochrome sound of period harpsichords (I have come to tolerate the harpsichord in small dosages, and some period instruments sound better than others).


Hantaï's harpsichord is far from jangly, but we all have different tastes. I've never understood why anybody can tolerate Glenn Gould, for instance.I remember hearing him play a Mozart sonata (on the radio). A listener later asked for the same music (for examination purposes) and expressly stated "not Gould, please". He/she obviously didn't like the interpretation any more than I did.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^We agree entirely on Gould. The most robotic, mechanical, soulless playing in Bach and Mozart; but if you haven't heard his solo Brahms album, give that a shot. He's incredibly probing, lyrical, and poetic there.


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## Laraine Anne Barker

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^We agree entirely on Gould. The most robotic, mechanical, soulless playing in Bach and Mozart; but if you haven't heard his solo Brahms album, give that a shot. He's incredibly probing, lyrical, and poetic there.


How interesting that he should be good at Brahms. Apart from not liking his interpretations of Bach, I don't like the very dry sound of his piano. The piano is lacking in harmonics compared to the harpsichord. I wish Andrew Lawrence-King would transcribe more Bach for his wonderful harp. The partitas perhaps? He plays the aria of the Goldberg Variations so well I'd like to hear those on his harp, if such is possible.


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## Barbebleu

I must be hearing a different Glenn Gould. Very far from soulless and mechanical to my ears. As for Bach on a harp! I’d only be prepared to listen to that if Harpo Marx was the interpreter. As far as that travesty of a musical instrument, the harpsichord, is concerned, I’m in agreement with verdict of Sir Thomas Beecham!


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## Merl

Barbebleu said:


> .... As far as that travesty of a musical instrument, the harpsichord, is concerned, I’m in agreement with verdict of Sir Thomas Beecham!


My mate's dad was in the Halle orchestra. He used to say "The best use of a harpsicord is to start a fire." I disagree. I'd use ukelekes as kindling and then add the harpsichords when the fire got going.


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## premont

Barbebleu said:


> I must be hearing a different Glenn Gould. Very far from soulless and mechanical to my ears. As for Bach on a harp! I’d only be prepared to listen to that if Harpo Marx was the interpreter. As far as that travesty of a musical instrument, the harpsichord, is concerned, I’m in agreement with verdict of Sir Thomas Beecham!


Each to his own.


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## Barbebleu

premont said:


> Each to his own.


Absolutely!


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## Laraine Anne Barker

premont said:


> Each to his own.


You either love Gould or hate him. There doesn't seem to be an in-between. Have you actually HEARD Andrew Lawrence-King playing Bach? He doesn't sound anything like the tinkly fountain sound I tend to associate with the modern harp. Playing Bach on a harp that would have existed in Bach's days is far less appropriate than today's grand pianos. 

It looks like the reputation of the harpsichord Landowska left behind her hasn't died. I'm trying to imagine how marvellous her recordings would be if she'd had a real instrument. 

My late friend Walter had wider tastes than I do in many ways (he even liked jazz) but he still had holes in his taste. He loved Wagner while I can't stand him, and he often said he didn't like Bach or Mozart (apart from the operas) and even Beethoven. I'm guessing that's because his father had him playing along with recordings of their violin concertos when he was a boy (though not the Beethoven, obviously). I never did get down to the reason he said he didn't like Beethoven, especially as he bought a complete set of the piano concertos. But I did work out why he didn't like Albinoni. It was puzzling to me that someone who loved Vivaldi should hate Albinoni. The reason? That horrible dirge called Albinoni's Adagio, fobbed off as an Albinoni work in 1945 by its creator, Giazotto. I've always thought it sounded like a 19th century composer trying unsuccessfully to write in Baroque style.


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## premont

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> You either love Gould or hate him. There doesn't seem to be an in-between. Have you actually HEARD Andrew Lawrence-King playing Bach? He doesn't sound anything like the tinkly fountain sound I tend to associate with the modern harp. Playing Bach on a harp that would have existed in Bach's days is far less appropriate than today's grand pianos.


I know most of Gould's Bach recordings but culled the ones I had acquired as I quickly got tired of his egocentric style. Nor do I think the piano is the right instrument for Bach.

As to Lawrence-King's Bach, I have heard the Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue - not too bad actually - but I still prefer the harpsichord.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> Playing Bach on a harp that would have existed in Bach's days is far less [sic] appropriate than today's grand pianos.


You could say that playing Bach on the harp is actually HIP practice. The musicologist Donald Tovey wrote that “Bach wrote on the principle, not that music was written for instruments, but that instruments are made for music.” During the Baroque period the harp had a huge repertoire of pieces shared with singers and other instruments. In fact, the repertoire of harp players was identical to that of keyboard players. Specifying a particular instrument for a piece was the exception rather than the rule. The lists of instruments we see on title pages of printed works were determined more by market forces than by anything else. They’re an indication of performances by the - mostly - amateur players or the lower-ranking professionals who would be the target of that kind of marketing.

You might try American harpist Parker Ramsay's playing of the “Goldberg” Variations, which he has arranged for the modern pedal harp. It's not to everyone's taste, but then nothing is.


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## Bwv 1080




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## Laraine Anne Barker

premont said:


> I know most of Gould's Bach recordings but culled the ones I had acquired as I quickly got tired of his egocentric style. Nor do I think the piano is the right instrument for Bach.
> 
> As to Lawrence-King's Bach, I have heard the Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue - not too bad actually - but I still prefer the harpsichord.


Egocentric—a perfect description. I haven't heard Lawrence-King playing the Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue but it's one of the items that was on my Landowska LP. Definitely not a work for a beginner to start with! Neither was The Musical Offering, but I got that too. I still wonder that I didn't land up hating Bach.


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> You could say that playing Bach on the harp is actually HIP practice. The musicologist Donald Tovey wrote that “Bach wrote on the principle, not that music was written for instruments, but that instruments are made for music.” During the Baroque period the harp had a huge repertoire of pieces shared with singers and other instruments. In fact, the repertoire of harp players was identical to that of keyboard players. Specifying a particular instrument for a piece was the exception rather than the rule. The lists of instruments we see on title pages of printed works were determined more by market forces than by anything else. They’re an indication of performances by the - mostly - amateur players or the lower-ranking professionals who would be the target of that kind of marketing.
> 
> You might try American harpist Parker Ramsay's playing of the “Goldberg” Variations, which he has arranged for the modern pedal harp. It's not to everyone's taste, but then nothing is.


I once heard a Frescobaldi mass with harp, I don’t know if they were really church instruments. Nicely played too, and a nice instrument.

Some baroque composers were very specific about instruments. Cabezon, for example, gave a very well defined list - keyboard, harp or vihuela. He seems to have deliberately excluded bowed strings for some reason. As far as I know no one has ever recorded a Frescobaldi mass with vihuela, though it seems obviously a fun idea (because guitars are pretty common church instruments today)

That comment by Tovey seems a bit glib to me.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> I once heard a Frescobaldi mass with harp, I don’t know if they were really church instruments. Nicely played too, and a nice instrument.


If I'm not mistaken Jean-Marc Aymes' recording of Fiori Musicali includes some of the pieces played on a harp.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> Some baroque composers were very specific about instruments. Cabezon, for example, gave a very well defined list - keyboard, harp or vihuela. He seems to have deliberately excluded bowed strings for some reason.


Cabezon’s designation is _Obras de Musica para tecla, arpa, y vihuela_. _Vihuela_, which seems to be allied to _viola_ (the letter h is silent in Spanish), is an old generic term for stringed instruments. _Vihuela de arco_ refers to bowed instruments – as viols, violins etc. _Vihuela de mano_ is used of guitars, lutes, and other plucked instruments. So Cabezon very likely meant to include bowed strings in his list.


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Cabezon’s designation is _Obras de Musica para tecla, arpa, y vihuela_. _Vihuela_, which seems to be allied to _viola_ (the letter h is silent in Spanish), is an old generic term for stringed instruments. _Vihuela de arco_ refers to bowed instruments – as viols, violins etc. _Vihuela de mano_ is used of guitars, lutes, and other plucked instruments. So Cabezon very likely meant to include bowed strings in his list.


Very good!


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Cabezon’s designation is _Obras de Musica para tecla, arpa, y vihuela_. _Vihuela_, which seems to be allied to _viola_ (the letter h is silent in Spanish), is an old generic term for stringed instruments. _Vihuela de arco_ refers to bowed instruments – as viols, violins etc. _Vihuela de mano_ is used of guitars, lutes, and other plucked instruments. So Cabezon very likely meant to include bowed strings in his list.


Let me take the opportunity to recommend to you, if you don’t already know them, José Miguel Moreno’s two anthologies of early Spanish vihuela music, _Cancion del Emperador_ and _Canto del Cavallero_. The latter contains a couple of pieces by Cabezón. The approaches in the two CDs are very different - the former (_Emperador_) more poised and restrained, the latter (_Cavallero_) more interventionist - full of colour and guitar effects. Both very successful IMO, especially _Emperador_.

It raises an interesting questions. Is this music in some sense fundamentally contrapuntal? What I mean is, is it best served by letting the impact and expressiveness come from the counterpoint, or by embellishing the music with colours and other guitar effects? My feeling is that the former, the _Emperador_ approach, is the way to go, just because _Emperador_ is so wonderful!


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## RICK RIEKERT

Thanks, Mandryka. I'll give those collections a listen. It’s surprising that for an instrument that was played as extensively as the _vihuela de mano,_ so few instruments and so little music and information relating to performance have come down to us. The vihuela shares with the lute a heritage of improvisation, although the development of 16th century instrumental style is also greatly indebted to the dominant tradition of vocal polyphony. Improvisation and embellishment, especially of vocal pieces, were important ingredients of instrumental practice. Some musicians and theorists such as Juan Bermudo, Diego Pisador, and Miguel de Fuenllana believed that embellishments should be limited to ornamentation at cadences in order to preserve the polyphonic integrity and tempo of the original model. Enríquez de Valderrabano states that unadorned works were less difficult to play, particularly given the current vogue for complex counterpoint. His stated preference was to leave the embellishment to the taste and technical ability of the player, although he advertises that he adds embellishments in a few works as a model for those who wish to play in this way. In his _Declaración de instrumentos musicales_ of 1555 Bermudo goes so far as to admonish those players who ‘destroy good music with importune glosses’, and considers it an audacity for any instrumentalist to attempt to ‘improve’ compositions by eminent masters. In all these cases writers are of course expressing their taste and personal preference, and in so doing they are also tacitly acknowledging a practice of embellishing intabulated vocal pieces.

As you know, the composition of original fantasias was the pinnacle of the vihuelist’s art. Luis Milan’s are distinguished from those of all subsequent composers in that they’re less dependent on techniques derived from vocal composition and more closely connected to instrumental improvisation.


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## abrygida

D.Scarlatti - Sonata in D minor, K.1 (L.366)






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D.Scarlatti - Sonata in B minor, K.87 (L.33)






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D.Scarlatti - Sonata in E major, K.162 (L.21)


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