# Favorite Beethoven Opera



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

For purposes of simplicity in this poll, I am keeping the early iterations (Leonore) and the final product (Fidelio) all together as one opera rather than splitting them out as separate operas.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

That should be "_Neither_ of the above," or, if they are considered one work, "_Not_ the above."

Where is your grammar?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> That should be "_Neither_ of the above," or, if they are considered one work, "_Not_ the above."
> 
> Where is your grammar?


I did that on purpose trying to create the illusion of multiple choices. And if Lenonore and Fidelio are considered as two different (albeit quite similar) operas, then the grammar is correct, although I did say were were not doing it that way. Nevertheless, voters may select Fidelio/Leonore when they really only like one or the other.

But I am disappointed that you didn't vote for Fidelio.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

So happy you explained. Nevertheless, "none" is as unidiomatic in referring to two things as in referring to one. But, just to prove that I have no pedantic hard feelings (painful as such barbarisms are to me), I shall vote for the only possible choice, and wonder what in the world anyone means by doing otherwise.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> So happy you explained. Nevertheless, "none" is as unidiomatic in referring to two things as in referring to one. But, just to prove that I have no pedantic hard feelings (painful as such barbarisms are to me), I shall vote for the only possible choice, and wonder what in the world anyone means by doing otherwise.


Thank you sir. You are correct. "Neither" is the best word to use. But to really stretch things I'll add that there were two different iterations of Leonore, so combined with Fidelio, we could say there are three opera and therefore, none of the above would be a possible choice. See how good I am at backpedaling this grammar stuff. 

I'll add that I got solid D's in English class from the beginning through high school and they passed me to get rid of me. Later I ended up in a career that has me writing all the time and, while I make of mistakes and don't know the names of many grammatical constructions etc., I am valued at the office for my writing abilities (sad commentary on the others there), which don't always come through here as I am often in a rush.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> That should be "_Neither_ of the above," or, if they are considered one work, "_Not_ the above."
> 
> *Where is your grammar?*
> 
> With grampar


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

AS only gods make no mistakes.


On topic:

Fidelio/Leonore


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> So happy you explained. Nevertheless, "none" is as unidiomatic in referring to two things as in referring to one. But, just to prove that I have no pedantic hard feelings (painful as such barbarisms are to me), I shall vote for the only possible choice, and* wonder what in the world anyone means by doing otherwise*.


Erm ... for a bit of fun? :lol:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

I must admit to not having heard Leonore, but unless it's stuffed full of great tunes which didn't make it into the final version of the opera, I will have to pass.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I must admit to not having heard Leonore, but unless it's stuffed full of great tunes which didn't make it into the final version of the opera, I will have to pass.


"Stuffed full" would be an overstatement, but there are lovely things omitted from _Fidelio_ purely for dramatic tightening, not because they are unworthy. C'mon! Give it a try!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Missa Solemnis puts them both to shame.

If I want to hear Beethoven with voices, see the first sentence.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I think that if Fidelio had been written by a lesser known composer it would fallen out of the standard rep a long time ago. I love Beethoven but these works were not his best. As I mentioned recently in another thread, Wagner said that the greatest work for orchestra and voices was Beethoven's 9th. I think that sums it up.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

From Wikipedia:


> Fidelio itself, which Beethoven began in 1804 immediately after giving up on Vestas Feuer, was first performed in 1805 and was extensively revised by the composer for subsequent performances in 1806 and 1814.


The best CD set of the 1805 Leonore is this:









The best CD set of the 1806 Leonore is this:









The best CD set of the 1814 Fidelio (and now it is largely my opinion) is this:









I would recommend everyone have at least one Fidelio set, and if interested in the earlier opera, probably should get the Blomstedt 1805 set as I think the 1806 was more transitional and perhaps cut more. In other words you would get the most bang for the buck buying the first Leonore and Fidelio.

Also I would avoid the Gardiner Leonore as it appears to be an amalgamation of all three versions, unless you happen to want the DG set from their complete Beethoven works, which is a box set that includes both the Bernstein Fidelio and the Gardiner Leonore and can be had reasonably priced used (but I prefer the separate sets and Blomstedt's Leonore):








This set does have a section in the expansive booklet that goes through all three opera iterations (1805, 1806, 1814) and how they interrelate, what was included or not included in each iteration, and what was included in the Gardiner amalgamation. So it is of great interest from an educational perspective.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

To be pedantic, and you all know me to be exceedingly pedantic, there are two other operatic snippets from Beethoven. He did a scene or so of a projected opera Vestas Feuer, Hess 115, which was recorded by Andrew Davis and the BBC Symphony Orchestra. He also started work on an adaptation of Macbeth, but before he got beyond a few sketches his librettist, Collin, died and that was the end of that. My compadre at the Unheard Beethoven has done a well-regarded realization of the Overture that incorporates all the surviving sketch material plus other material that may originally have been intended for Macbeth but ended up in the Ghost Trio. That Overture has been recorded a few times (probably the best rendition is by Yuval Waldman and the St. Petersburg Symphony Orchestra, available on a CD entitled Beethoven Lost).

But I voted for Fidelio. 

And remember, to get the true 1805 Leonore you need to insert at the beginning of Act II the "Introduction to Act II" WoO 2b. For many years it was believed to be for the drama Tarpeja, along with the Triumphal March WoO 2a, but it was not that long ago proven from paper type and handwriting to belong to the original Leonore.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I never really connected with Fidelio - it has some fine numbers but I just cant regard it as a great opera.

But the leonora ov no 3 is really quite something special.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> That should be "_Neither_ of the above," or, if they are considered one work, "_Not_ the above."
> 
> Where is your grammar?


My grammar's at home with my grampa!:lol: I see Itullian beat me to the punch. I should have read all the posts. Kudos to you Itullian.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> That should be "_Neither_ of the above," or, if they are considered one work, "_Not_ the above."
> 
> Where is your grammar?


Out at a performance of Fidelio with his Gampar?

N.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Dragging this one up in hopes of more votes/discussion.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Fidelio's okay. It has a lot of "dry spots". However the ending is thrilling, either from Toscanini or Klemperer.

But it's a long wait...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Dragging this one up in hopes of more votes/discussion.


Still love them both, Fidelio "Bersnstein" , who else I might add.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Still love them both, Fidelio "Bersnstein" , who else I might add.


and Leonore, Blomstedt.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> and Leonore, Blomstedt.


I have still this one on my wish list.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/MDG/MDG3370826


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

This thread needed another dragging up for further input, so have at it!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

SixFootScowl said:


> This thread needed another dragging up for further input, so have at it!


It really didn't. :lol:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> It really didn't. :lol:


Yeah, but I am the old and abandoned thread dragger upper, so I have to do it. It is a compulsion.:lol:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"Although critics have noted the similarity in plot with Gluck's opera Orfeo ed Euridice-the underground rescue mission in which the protagonist must control, or conceal, his emotions in order to retrieve his or her spouse, we do not know whether or not Beethoven or any of the librettists had this in mind while constructing the opera."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidelio


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## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> "Although critics have noted the similarity in plot with Gluck's opera Orfeo ed Euridice-the underground rescue mission in which the protagonist must control, or conceal, his emotions in order to retrieve his or her spouse, we do not know whether or not Beethoven or any of the librettists had this in mind while constructing the opera."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidelio


Hasn't somebody said that there are only six plots in literature, and all but one of them can be traced back to ancient Greece?


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## neofite (Feb 19, 2017)

SixFootScowl said:


> Yeah, but I am the old and abandoned thread dragger upper, so I have to do it. It is a compulsion.:lol:


No need to apologize. I think it's a good idea to occasionally revive long dormant threads.

Perhaps a bit off topic, but this poll reminds me of the elections where I used to live in a certain, unnamed, country.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SixFootScowl said:


> From Wikipedia:
> 
> The best CD set of the 1805 Leonore is this [Blomstedt]:
> 
> ...


UPDATE, the best set for the 1805 Leonore is now this one by a huge margin:


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

jflatter said:


> I think that if Fidelio had been written by a lesser known composer it would fallen out of the standard rep a long time ago.


This is extremely unlikely. Apart from the fact that most of its music is as far beyond lesser composers as Beethoven symphonies are. 
Many operas by composers mostly famous for other music or famous for other operas could never be established in the repertoire. E.g. Haydn's, Schubert's, Schumann's. Even Weber's beyond Freischütz could not make it. Similarly, the operas once famous that vanished or almost vanished in the last 50 or 100 years. If Fidelio was as weak as some people love to claim, the mere name Beethoven could never have established it so firmly for almost 200 years. It would be on the fringe or mainly restricted to recordings like the C major mass or Weber's Oberon.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I heard butch Jane Eaglen in her prime 4 times in bargain seats for Fidelio. I love the opera. All the singers were great and she was ideal for the part, if a bit chesty. Great memories.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The earlier versions of Fidelio originally called "Leonore" are certainly very interesting, but I still prefer the familiar final version . I guess I prefer it because it's the one I became familiar with back in the store age of LPs when I was a young dinosaur . Now I'm an old one .


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