# Violin Sonata



## Kieran

It's a lovely form, isn't it? Very intimate, it sounds the most like a dialogue between two instruments, to me. I'm most familiar with Mozart's, but have also heard some by Beethoven. Apparently, it had a very genteel beginning, as a showcase for debutante aristocrat girls to show their virtuosity on the piano, while accompanied by an elder, platonically-related male, maybe an uncle or old family friend.

In Mozart's time, the two roles became equally prominent, as you can hear in K454, K481 and K526. I'm sure the following century saw even further developments, but I'm not aware of them. Something to look forward to, eh?

But as a form, I prefer this to the piano trio or the solo piano sonata, just for the luscious quality of the sound and the way the instruments complement each other...


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## Ukko

"La Didone abbandonata" gets several hits from a Google search, one of them a not-so-very-good trio rendition of the sonata by *Tartini*. I suggest you put some effort into finding the (violin with piano) version recorded by Oistrakh, accompanied by Frieda Bauer. The sentiment is too strong for some, but being Irish you should be able to go with it.

The glorious sounds Oistrakh makes his violin emit seem not quite humanly possible (or violinly possible) - but they were recorded, so...


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## Quartetfore

For a better understanding of the Duo Sonata, I think that you should spend some time (if you have it) in delving in to its history and origins. Your own idea of its purpose and what it means to classical music is sort of "off base". Its true that during the late 18th and early 19th century a good number of Violin Sonatas were composed for domestic use, but its history and meaning go a lot deeper than that.


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## waldvogel

Kieran said:


> Apparently, it had a very genteel beginning, as a showcase for debutante aristocrat girls to show their virtuosity on the piano, while accompanied by an elder, platonically-related male, maybe an uncle or old family friend.


Tolstoy wrote a very famous short novel called "The Kreutzer Sonata" about a somewhat less than innocent version of this theme.

As far as my favourite violin sonata, my vote goes to Brahms' Violin Sonata #1, op. 78 number 1, in G major.


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## violadude

waldvogel said:


> Tolstoy wrote a very famous short novel called "The Kreutzer Sonata" about a somewhat less than innocent version of this theme.
> 
> As far as my favourite violin sonata, my vote goes to Brahms' Violin Sonata #1, op. 78 number 1, in G major.


Yes, and then Janacek went and wrote a string quartet based on the novel based on the violin sonata.


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## Klavierspieler

My favorite Violin Sonata is actually the "Kreutzer."



Kieran said:


> But as a form, I prefer this to the piano trio or the solo piano sonata, just for the luscious quality of the sound and the way the instruments complement each other...


I find it difficult to say whether I like a particular form or combination of instruments more than another. To me it depends entirely on how well the piece was worked out by the composer. A solo Piano could compliment itself, in my opinion, just as well as Violin and Piano compliment each, depending only on the quality of performance and composition.


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## Ukko

Klavierspieler said:


> My favorite Violin Sonata is actually the "Kreutzer."
> 
> I find it difficult to say whether I like a particular form or combination of instruments more than another. To me it depends entirely on how well the piece was worked out by the composer. A solo Piano could compliment itself, in my opinion, just as well as Violin and Piano compliment each, depending only on the quality of performance and composition.


I applaud your attitude but, ...even under 'the hands of the great', a piano can produce only a rough approximation of cantabile. The performer, and probably the composer, have to create an illusion. Sometimes its a damned good illusion.


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## Klavierspieler

Hilltroll72 said:


> I applaud your attitude but, ...even under 'the hands of the great', a piano can produce only a rough approximation of cantabile. The performer, and probably the composer, have to create an illusion. Sometimes its a damned good illusion.


I would beg to differ; in my opinion the cantabile of the piano is a true cantabile, but it is merely of a different kind than that of strings and other instruments.


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## Kopachris

If "cantabile" is to come from _cantare_ "to sing," which is typically distinguished from _sonare_ "to sound" or "to play" (the origin of the term _sonata_) as referring specifically to voices instead of instruments (sonatas are instrumental), then an instrument capable of cantabile should closely approximate the human voice's expressive capabilities. Strictly speaking, stringed instruments approximate the human voice's expressive capabilities far more closely than does the piano; therefore, the stringed instruments are much better at producing cantabile than the piano. While the composer and the performer may hint, suggest, or emulate cantabile quite effectively, the piano still lacks many of the tone qualities of the human voice. (For example, a note played on the piano cannot easily begin softly and grow louder without striking the key multiple times; for violins, it's a simple matter of bowing.)

A different kind of cantabile perhaps... but we should not call it "cantabile," as the piano was not meant to emulate the human voice. It uses much different means of expression (which, judging from the amount of literature for the piano, is also very popular). It is primarily a percussive instrument and the human voice is not. At least, not the singing voice, where vowel sounds are made to be more prominent; in speaking, consonants, which are percussive, are made to be more prominent.


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## Kieran

Klavierspieler said:


> My favorite Violin Sonata is actually the "Kreutzer."
> 
> I find it difficult to say whether I like a particular form or combination of instruments more than another. To me it depends entirely on how well the piece was worked out by the composer. A solo Piano could compliment itself, in my opinion, just as well as Violin and Piano compliment each, depending only on the quality of performance and composition.


Well, that's true, but there's something about the texture of the two instruments working together makes me see this as an intimate dialogue, in the way a solo piano or a piano trio can't achieve...


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## Klavierspieler

Kopachris said:


> If "cantabile" is to come from _cantare_ "to sing," which is typically distinguished from _sonare_ "to sound" or "to play" (the origin of the term _sonata_) as referring specifically to voices instead of instruments (sonatas are instrumental), then an instrument capable of cantabile should closely approximate the human voice's expressive capabilities. Strictly speaking, stringed instruments approximate the human voice's expressive capabilities far more closely than does the piano; therefore, the stringed instruments are much better at producing cantabile than the piano. While the composer and the performer may hint, suggest, or emulate cantabile quite effectively, the piano still lacks many of the tone qualities of the human voice. (For example, a note played on the piano cannot easily begin softly and grow louder without striking the key multiple times; for violins, it's a simple matter of bowing.)
> 
> A different kind of cantabile perhaps... but we should not call it "cantabile," as the piano was not meant to emulate the human voice. It uses much different means of expression (which, judging from the amount of literature for the piano, is also very popular). It is primarily a percussive instrument and the human voice is not. At least, not the singing voice, where vowel sounds are made to be more prominent; in speaking, consonants, which are percussive, are made to be more prominent.


All this is true, but I was not speaking strictly.  What you have said here is exactly what I meant by "a different kind of cantabile."


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## Taneyev

My vote: Lekeu - Franck - Brahms 3th - LvB 9th - Saint-Saëns 1st. - Prokofieff 2th. - Faure 1st.


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## itywltmt

The Franck and Faure A minor sonatas, for sure make the list!

All of the "great composers" tried their hand at this: Bach, Brahms, Mozart, Beethoven, Prokofiev...

On another thread, I have spoken about the below recording of French-Canadian sonatas, which I find very enjoyable:










https://www.analekta.com/en/album/opus-quebec.310.html

(Extensive samples!)


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## brianwalker

Brahms' violin sonatas are so underrated..


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## neoshredder

Yeah. I also like Violin Sonatas with a Harpsichord instead of Piano. Depends on what I'm in the mood for. Sometimes you get Biber fever though. lol


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## Hassid

If we limited on the traditional violin&piano sonata, is notable that some of the most famous violinist-composers didn't write one: Paganini-Sarasate-Wieniawsky-Ysaye-Ernst. But others did it: Vieuxtemps and Hubay, even if those are forgotten and almost never played live. About Wieniawsky, his brother Joseph (a famous pianist in his time) wrote a very long (recording almost 1 hour long) and very boring violin sonata. A real pity that he didn't ask for Henrik help and advice (or he didn't wont to do it).


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## Kieran

I've been listening a lot to Beethoven's 9th - the Kreutzer - and it's quite large, isn't it? I think he takes the violin part to places Mozart certainly didn't, but the variations on the andante are remarkable. It seems larger than a simple sonata for violin and piano, but I suppose that's because there's nothing simple about it. Maybe my eyelids droop and my eyeballs roll upwards sleepily during the 57th variation, but really, this is an astonishing work: playful, melodic, rhythmic, moody, contrary, blissful, so many competing things at once...


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## Kieran

neoshredder said:


> Yeah. I also like Violin Sonatas with a Harpsichord instead of Piano. Depends on what I'm in the mood for. Sometimes you get Biber fever though. lol


I wouldn't mid, except I can't stand the sound of the harpsichord. It's almost a fear with me, some strange phobia. I think it could be _Harpsichordnaphobia_ or something, but when I hear that skeletal noise, my bones shiver and my eyes bulge...


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## Hassid

Mozart´s sonatas are really for piano with violin as a secondary voice. Violin parts are just complementary and without weight. That´s why on the recordings, the pianist is much more important.


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## opus55

Wrong thread again.. sorry


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## Vaneyes

I never met a Violin Sonata I didn't like. Mozart, LvB, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Franck, Grieg, Debussy, Arnold, Bartok, Delius, Elgar, Faure, Hindemith, Janacek, Norgard, Penderecki, Poulenc, Prokofiev, Ravel, Schnittke, Shostakovich, RVW.


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## Hassid

Try Joseph Wieniawsky´s If you can listen to the end of it, you'll have a premium.


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