# Classical music corruption



## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

There is some corruption in classical music.For example there was a LP of Tchaikovsky symphony in E FLAT but the lp was labeled symphony 7 in E FLAT major.But he never wrote a symphony # 7.He only had 6 numbered symphonies & the Manfred therefore he only had 7 completed symphonies.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Did you google it first before crying corruption? I'll let you have the thrill of discovery yourself at www.google.com - that should reassure about this LP


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Or did I just get trollololololed? If so, well played


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Tchaikovsky was quite a lucky fellow. He was never bothered by "the curse of the 9th".


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

When the E-flat symphony was reconstructed by Semyon Bogatyrev, it was originally published under the title "Symphony No. 7 in E-flat major," although Tchaikovsky started working on it after his fifth symphony and intended it to be his sixth before he abandoned work on it to work instead on his "program symphony," which we know now as his sixth.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2014)

Hey Kop, mt was supposed to have the thrill of discovery for her or himself.:scold:


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Tchaikovsky was quite a lucky fellow. He was never bothered by "the curse of the 9th".


Well, if we include the Manfred, and the spurious 7th, he only missed by 1.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2014)

And if we include the suites, which are symphonies without so much pressure (as it were), then he went over nine by three, woo hoo!

Anyway, lots of composers came in under nine. And lots of composers came in over nine. It's no thing. (Far as I know, it was only Mahler who thought differently. Or that is, it was only Schoenberg, talking about Mahler. And how many people besides Beethoven (and before Mahler) wrote exactly nine? Zero. Well, Dvorak did, but his first four weren't rediscovered until after his death.)


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I think Tchaikovsky had enough other curses without worrying about a 9th.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

When I read "classical music corruption" I think something along the lines of "top pianists accept bribes to not perform Scriabin" not "erroneously numbered Tchaikovsky symphony".


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

More controversy!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I think I will go back to jazz. No corruption there.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Crudblud said:


> When I read "classical music corruption" I think something along the lines of "top pianists accept bribes to not perform Scriabin" not "erroneously numbered Tchaikovsky symphony".


It's just a corruption of the definition and application of corruption! Apparently the OP isn't familiar with the term, typographical error. :lol:


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> When I read "classical music corruption" I think something along the lines of "top pianists accept bribes to not perform Scriabin" not "erroneously numbered Tchaikovsky symphony".


Principal violinist propositions conductor to earn and maintain position. Timpanist and principal bassist continually and systematically cheat at high stakes card games against visiting soloists, winning and making demands both for their own personal amusement and profit.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

There's this one too.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2014)

Fat-cat CPT elites are spreading pinko commie propaganda in order to infiltrate our system with anti-modernist John Williams clones and install a "separate but equal" world order involving the enslavement of forward thinkers to oppressive Pachelbelic big-wigs.

That's a shame about that Tchaikovsky thing too.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

some guy said:


> And if we include the suites, which are symphonies without so much pressure (as it were), then he went over nine by three, woo hoo!
> 
> Anyway, lots of composers came in under nine. And lots of composers came in over nine. It's no thing. (Far as I know, it was only Mahler who thought differently. Or that is, it was only Schoenberg, talking about Mahler. And how many people besides Beethoven (and before Mahler) wrote exactly nine? Zero. Well, Dvorak did, but his first four weren't rediscovered until after his death.)


Das Lied was suppossed to be a Symphony, but since it would have been #9, Mahler changed it's designation. So he actualy wrote 10, and then if you include the 10th symphony he was somewhere between 10.25 and 11...


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2014)

Yes, I'm well aware of Mahler's stratagem for avoiding the suppositious curse. It's not very convincing, though. It certainly didn't convince Mahler!

My favorite comment about Das Lied is this one, by Tony Duggan: "The work is a symphony in all but name and form."

Interesting. It's not called a duck. It doesn't look like a duck. I'll bet it's not a duck!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Triplets said:


> Das Lied was suppossed to be a Symphony, but since it would have been #9, Mahler changed it's designation. So he actualy wrote 10, and then if you include the 10th symphony he was somewhere between 10.25 and 11...


Mahler wrote No. 9 on the title page, but crossed it out. If he had ended up labeling it a symphony, it would have been the only such work he wrote that was not developmental (symphonic) in character and did not have any movements in sonata form.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> Mahler wrote No. 9 on the title page, but crossed it out. If he had ended up labeling it a symphony, it would have been the only such work he wrote that was not developmental (symphonic) in character and did not have any movements in sonata form.


Seems to be labeled a symphony, though not numbered. On the first page of the score, Universal Edition: "Eine Symphonie fur eine Tenor und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester." I don't read German, but this seems clear.

Mahler should really have been more careful!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Seems to be labeled a symphony, though not numbered. On the first page of the score, Universal Edition: "Eine Symphonie fur eine Tenor und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester." I don't read German, but this seems clear.
> 
> Mahler should really have been more careful!


I'm aware of what it says. I meant "if it had been counted among his numbered symphonies".

He likely kept the name because the work was of symphonic scope, and unlike the traditional definition of a song cycle, it includes works by more than one poet.


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## OldFashionedGirl (Jul 21, 2013)

This is corruption:


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

dgee said:


> Did you google it first before crying corruption? I'll let you have the thrill of discovery yourself at www.google.com - that should reassure about this LP


I DID RESEARCH FIRST OF COURSE he only had 7 completed symphonies anyway.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Tchaikovsky was quite a lucky fellow. He was never bothered by "the curse of the 9th".


But of course not since he committed suicide you know.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> When I read "classical music corruption" I think something along the lines of "top pianists accept bribes to not perform Scriabin" not "erroneously numbered Tchaikovsky symphony".


 Well to me it is corruption because these people deceived others about the e flat symphony.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Another example is DVORAK symphony #5 opus 76 now the symphony 5 was opus 24 but the opus number was changed by the publisher.


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## Stavrogin (Apr 20, 2014)

OldFashionedGirl said:


> This is corruption:


... ... ... Damn.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2014)

mtmailey said:


> Well to me it is corruption because these people deceived others about the e flat symphony.


Interesting conflation of "corruption" and "deception." I'll have to think about that one.

In the meantime, I'll just note that I got that Ormandy recording when it first came out. The liner notes clearly set out the history of the music on the LP, how it was started and abandoned and some of it used to make a piano concerto. How each movement was completed and where the music came from.

It was very up front about this being a cobbled up thing.

So not even a whisper of deception there.

I'm still intrigued by "corruption," though. Perhaps any completing or reconstructing of a dead composer's manuscripts could be evidence of corruption, the idea that we have to have more music by the revered composers of the past, even if we have to make it up from dribs and drabs in their notebooks. Wouldn't do to simply move on to someone still alive or anything.:devil:


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Radames said:


> There's this one too.
> 
> View attachment 54560


YES another example of how they tamper with others music but do not put out the truth about some music.This is one reason why the came out with the copyright laws in 1880's.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

some guy said:


> Interesting conflation of "corruption" and "deception." I'll have to think about that one.
> 
> In the meantime, I'll just note that I got that Ormandy recording when it first came out. The liner notes clearly set out the history of the music on the LP, how it was started and abandoned and some of it used to make a piano concerto. How each movement was completed and where the music came from.
> 
> ...


 Putting a SYMPHONY 7 label is the lie here they should be honest & label it as SYMPHONY IN E FLAT MAJOR.


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