# How good are professional violin soloists versus professional orchestra members?



## Queequeg

Basically are the major violin concertos so difficult that the only few world class violinists like heifetz, oistrakh, mutter, hahn, jansen, etc are talented enough to perform them in concert? Are violinists in the top professional orchestras like NY or Berlin philharmonic good enough to perform them or even only the principal violinists? Where would these professional soloists fall if they auditioned for those top orchestras?


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## DiesIraeCX

I hope someone knowledgeable answers this! I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to things like this (and so many other things regarding music!). I myself have wondered about this very question. Could the "First Violinists" of the world's greatest orchestras (Vienna, Berlin, Amsterdam, etc.) be (successful) soloists for Violin Concertos, for instance?


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## GraemeG

Considering there is no shortage of 16-year-olds who can play the Tchaikovsky concerto (that is to say, in time and in tune), you can be fairly confident of the ability of players in professional orchestras to do the same...
Some of them might be a little rusty, perhaps - if you're playing in an orchestra day-in, day-out, probably doing some teaching on the side, you're unlikely to have random concertos under your fingers at will - but if they needed to, of course they could.
cheers,
Graeme


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## dgee

To win an competitive audition for a reasonably serious job you're going to have to prepare some standard rep concerto mvmts and then play them better than the other applicants. You've probably also worked through concertos to a reasonably high standard as part of your study and performed them with orchestras - whether they'd be as fantastic as a professional soloist is another thing, but many younger violinists fresh out school and auditioning can probably get through concertos pretty impressively. That said, orchestral musicians are not all the same - some are just solid tutti players while others are active soloists and chamber musicians when their work commitments allow. At a highest level, soloing, chamber and orchestral can be work/lifestyle choices as well as a matter of what the player is capable of - however, the cream does tend to rise to the top and soloists are generally the most outstanding!


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## Queequeg

GraemeG said:


> Considering there is no shortage of 16-year-olds who can play the Tchaikovsky concerto (that is to say, in time and in tune), you can be fairly confident of the ability of players in professional orchestras to do the same...
> Some of them might be a little rusty, perhaps - if you're playing in an orchestra day-in, day-out, probably doing some teaching on the side, you're unlikely to have random concertos under your fingers at will - but if they needed to, of course they could.
> cheers,
> Graeme


I see, so it really has to do more with what the violinist prefers, either solo work or going on tour or settling down in an orchestra?

That clears it up but I also ask because in that case, since we discuss who the world's best violinists are, which typically the most well known soloists, we could or should really be including, for example, concertmaster of the NY or Vienna philharmonic orchestra?


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## PlaySalieri

Being an orhestral player is vastly different. A solist - one that has been guided correctly - has to produce a sound big enough to stand out even when an orchestra is blazing away. When you see these 16 y/o wizards on youtube - you dont really get a sense of how well they are projecting - what looks great on youtube may be rather flat and remote in the concert hall.


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## PlaySalieri

Queequeg said:


> *I see, so it really has to do more with what the violinist prefers, either solo work or going on tour or settling down in an orchestra? *
> 
> That clears it up but I also ask because in that case, since we discuss who the world's best violinists are, which typically the most well known soloists, we could or should really be including, for example, concertmaster of the NY or Vienna philharmonic orchestra?


Probably most orch members will have started out wanting to be a great soloist - what else could drive someone to slog 4- 6 hours a day to reach the level required? But most are not good enough - simple as that. Some are good enough but not prepared for the sacrifices - 8 hours a day practice for one thing.


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## PlaySalieri

dgee said:


> To win an competitive audition for a reasonably serious job you're going to have to prepare some standard rep concerto mvmts and then play them better than the other applicants. You've probably also worked through concertos to a reasonably high standard as part of your study and performed them with orchestras - whether they'd be as fantastic as a professional soloist is another thing, but many younger violinists fresh out school and auditioning can probably get through concertos pretty impressively. That said, orchestral musicians are not all the same - some are just solid tutti players while others are active soloists and chamber musicians when their work commitments allow. At a highest level, soloing, chamber and orchestral can be work/lifestyle choices as well as a matter of what the player is capable of - however, the cream does tend to rise to the top and soloists are generally the most outstanding!


I agree with most of that - also bear in mind that playing 1 movement of a concerto for audition in front of a panel - and playing a full romantic concerto in front of 2000 punters is a totally different challenge - few can play flawlessly and artictically to the level required in those circumstances - it is down to the individual - their tuition path and other factors.


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## Admiral

The concertmaster of a good professional orchestra should be almost as good as a touring soloist, and will typically have an arrangement to play a certain number of concerti with his/her orchestra per year. But the poster who said it's a different type of tone (BIG TONE!) required to be a soloist, but you do find soloists rise out of the ranks of orchestra membership.

As an analogy, James Galway was once the principal flute of the Berlin Philharmonic, IIRC.

It's a different lifestyle being a soloist so that weeds out some capable people too.


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## PlaySalieri

Admiral said:


> The concertmaster of a good professional orchestra should be almost as good as a touring soloist, and will typically have an arrangement to play a certain number of concerti with his/her orchestra per year. But the poster who said it's a different type of tone (BIG TONE!) required to be a soloist, but you do find soloists rise out of the ranks of orchestra membership.
> 
> As an analogy, James Galway was once the principal flute of the Berlin Philharmonic, IIRC.
> 
> It's a different lifestyle being a soloist so that weeds out some capable people too.


It is very unusual for an orchestral player to become a soloist - Iona Brown from ASMF used to do concertos under Neville Marriner now and again - but never the big stuff like Brahms, Beethoven - usually shorter baroque or classical concertos. By the time a player goes to a conservatoire - they will already know where they are in their career direction - in the violin world soloists virtually always emerge at an early age - they are a partilcular kind of animal - and orchestral players know who they are too.


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## PlaySalieri

Just to put my comments into context - as some may think I am talking out of a vacuum. My son is an aspiring soloist - started very young - gained grade 8 (Dist) at just under 7 years and has been studying with international level teachers. he works much harder than orch players (and others who think they are good enough to be soloists) near his age or older - and has the appetite and ambition to have his individual musical voice heard - plus he has the talent. He likes playing in orchestras but finds it dull in comparison with being a soloist. He is just over 12 and is playing the bruch concerto this year with 4 different orchestras in the UK. Whether he will last the course only time will tell - but I have seen a lot during the time he has studied - and think that what I am saying is more or less accurate.


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## Fagotterdammerung

The vast majority of orchestral violinists _can_ play the vast majority of violin solo repertoire ... but, there is a difference between "can play" and "is outstanding to the point of being in demand as a soloist".

The level of playing is so high these days, and the competition so high, that being an excellent player really doesn't mean that much. Only a few rise to the top of their field.

Even among soloists, though, there are gradations, and it's not at all uncommon for an orchestal player to be active locally and have some recitals as a soloist while dedicating the majority of their time to orchestral work, chamber music, etc.


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## Vaneyes

Talent, music memory, a need to be front and center, a steady paycheck, tolerating/enjoying excessive travel, are a few considerations and determinates.


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## neofite

Fagotterdammerung said:


> The vast majority of orchestral violinists _can_ play the vast majority of violin solo repertoire ... but, there is a difference between "can play" and "is outstanding to the point of being in demand as a soloist".
> 
> The level of playing is so high these days, and the competition so high, that being an excellent player really doesn't mean that much. Only a few rise to the top of their field.
> 
> Even among soloists, though, there are gradations, and it's not at all uncommon for an orchestal player to be active locally and have some recitals as a soloist while dedicating the majority of their time to orchestral work, chamber music, etc.


I apologize for reviving such an old thread, but I just happened to stumble upon it and think it is an excellent question, something about which I had long wondered, along with some very good replies.

I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to be able to add anything useful except to say that this answer could likely be applied to many fields -- although most certainly not to contemporary composing.


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## Becca

I thought that it would be interesting for this thread to cut/paste parts of the bios of the 3 principal concertmasters of the Berlin Philharmonic...

Noah Bendix-Balgley - age 33, joined BPO in 2014
From 2011 to 2015 he was concertmaster of the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, where he delighted audiences not only as an orchestral musician, but also as a soloist. As a soloist he has performed with various renowned orchestras including the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France and the Orchestre National de Belgique. As a chamber musician, he has worked with the Miro and Athlos string quartets, and performed at many festivals, such as the Sarasota Music Festival, the ChamberFest Cleveland, the Nevada Chamber Music Festival and the Moritzburg Festival. In his spare time he enjoys klezmer music and is an active sportsman. In addition to basketball, he loves outdoor sports such as hiking and skiing and is a fan of basketball and baseball. 

Daishin Kashimoto - age 38, joined BPO in 2009
Daishin Kashimoto, who grew up in Japan, Germany and the USA, has already appeared as a soloist with many international orchestras, including the Boston Symphony, the Orchestre Nationale de France, the Bavarian and Frankfurt Radio Symphony orchestras, the Dresden Staatskapelle and the St. Petersburg Philharmonic. 

Daniel Strabawa - age 61, joined BPO in 1983
He was a first violinist in the Berlin Philharmonic for three years before becoming one of the three First Konzertmeister. In 1985 Stabrawa and three colleagues from the orchestra founded the Philharmonia Quartet, which has appeared with great success in Berlin and other international music centres all over the world. Since 1994, Daniel Stabrawa has been increasingly active as a conductor. 

Guy Braunstein was a first concertmaster until 2014
(From Wikipedia) n 2000 Braunstein was appointed as the concertmaster of the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra. Before receiving this position Braunstein played only as a soloist and as a chamber music violinist, and never played in an orchestra. However, the orchestra members unanimously elected him as the Concertmaster.In 2013, Braunstein left the Berlin Philharmonic in order to concentrate on a solo career.


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## Pugg

neofite said:


> I apologize for reviving such an old thread, but I just happened to stumble upon it and think it is an excellent question, something about which I had long wondered, along with some very good replies.
> 
> I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to be able to add anything useful except to say that this answer could likely be applied to many fields -- although most certainly not to contemporary composing.


No need for that, everyone has the same rights, on _this_ forum.


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## bharbeke

At the Phoenix Symphony, I saw the regular concertmaster, Stephen Moeckel, perform as the soloist on the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto, and he did an outstanding job. I think he has done a couple other concerto solos for the group over the years, too, but he is not a touring violin player to my knowledge. It makes sense to me to ask a violinist in the group to step up if they have the talent/passion and/or getting one of the touring soloists is too difficult or expensive.


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## Animal the Drummer

Years ago Herman Krebbers, then leader of the Concertgebouw, made marvellous recordings of the Brahms and Beethoven concertos among others.


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## Heck148

Every professional orchestra violinist is capable of performing the great concerti, These are required for audition purposes, along with orchestral excerpts. 
Also - many professional orchestra violinists may perform concerti with other orchestras, either those regional or community orchestras nearby, or in further locations...
motivation and career goals dictate what path a musician may take. not everyone is going to make it on the solo circuit. [this is not simply a matter of talent]. Endurance, consistency, dedication are extremely important. when you are a featured concerto soloist, you have to be "on" every night. the audience does not care whether you are tired, feeling ill, had a huge hassle at the airport, lost all your luggage, or whatever. they are paying for, and expecting - top level presentation.

Those who choose this path will learn as many of the great concerti as they can, and expand their repertoire over the years, so that their opportunities for solo engagements increase. other potential soloists will see that orchestra employment is more to their liking, and will make sure they learn the standard orchestral repertoire as readily as possible.


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## Heck148

Queequeg said:


> ......I also ask because in that case, since we discuss who the world's best violinists are, which typically the most well known soloists, we could or should really be including, for example, concertmaster of the NY or Vienna philharmonic orchestra?


Being a concert soloist requires different skills from being a concertmaster. both have to be superb violinists, to be sure - but concertmaster requires section leadership, not just violins, but entire string section.


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## Heck148

stomanek said:


> ....few can play flawlessly and artictically to the level required in those circumstances - it is down to the individual -


for concert soloists - consistency is crucial, they must play at that level consistently, night after night, regardless of personal hardship or circumstance. Orchestral soloists must do this also, perhaps even more frequently - but the bright, microscopically focused light is not on them quite so constantly.


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## Janspe

The concertmaster of the Helsinki Philharmonic played the Brahms concerto with the orchestra this season - and he did a very good job with it, as good as any star soloist. I've seen many of the other members of that orchestra (and of the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra too) perform concertos occasionally as well.


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## PlaySalieri

Janspe said:


> The concertmaster of the Helsinki Philharmonic played the Brahms concerto with the orchestra this season - and he did a very good job with it, as good as any star soloist. I've seen many of the other members of that orchestra (and of the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra too) perform concertos occasionally as well.


I dont doubt that - I would think most pro orch violinists with the practice would be good soloists. Many dont want that level of practice though (6-8 hours a day to prepare solo rep) which could be one reason why they become orch players.


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## DavidA

It would seem that a huge knowledge of repertory is need for an orchestral player even with music. Also the ability to sight read well.


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## zorcas

First, there are too many variables to answer that. But looking at reality, most concert goers know little or nothing about classical so couldn't concern themselves whether an orchestra principle is as good as a solo star brought in. Audiences for the big five to seven orchestras have a fair number in the audience who can fairly well distinguish a superb soloist from humdrum one but in smaller venues most couldn't. The sad element here is that local orchestras' hype managers go for brought in soloists who can be hyped as world famous, renowned whoevers. That they think will bring the suckers in. But usually outside the biggies a first chair of any instrument in flyover states can provide an enjoyable experience even for visiting Bostonians. It takes a college town of only, say,100,000 to have competent music faculty able to please the locals and many a campus school piano teacher can smoke
the Waldstein and lower digit Mozart piano concerti with eyes closed.


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## Pugg

zorcas said:


> First, there are too many variables to answer that. But looking at reality, most concert goers know little or nothing about classical so couldn't concern themselves whether an orchestra principle is as good as a solo star brought in. Audiences for the big five to seven orchestras have a fair number in the audience who can fairly well distinguish a superb soloist from humdrum one but in smaller venues most couldn't. The sad element here is that local orchestras' hype managers go for brought in soloists who can be hyped as world famous, renowned whoevers. That they think will bring the suckers in. But usually outside the biggies a first chair of any instrument in flyover states can provide an enjoyable experience even for visiting Bostonians. It takes a college town of only, say,100,000 to have competent music faculty able to please the locals and many a campus school piano teacher can smoke
> the Waldstein and lower digit Mozart piano concerti with eyes closed.


Firm first post, welcome to Talk Classical.


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## Harrowby Hall

Admiral said:


> As an analogy, James Galway was once the principal flute of the Berlin Philharmonic, IIRC.
> 
> It's a different lifestyle being a soloist so that weeds out some capable people too.


You are right about the lifestyle. Do you want a solitary, travelling existence or do you like the company of other people? This must be a consideration. Soloists spend a lot of time in aircraft cabins.

Jimmy Galway was also a member of the BBC Symphony Orchestra for a while. As was Jack Brymer.

Jack Brymer was a clarinet player who combined a career as a soloist with being an orchestral player. He moved from the BBC SO to the London Symphony Orchestra. He also had a kind of sub-career as a radio broadcaster.


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## SgtJohn74

You have to remember that this is not exactly a one-dimensional continuum.

A mid-level soloist who can play the solo part in the most famous concertos competently is not just "better at violin" than a last-row tutti player in the Berlin Philharmonic.

The latter may not be able to play the solo part, but he can do things the soloist cannot: listen closely to others around him, react in a fraction of a second to pitch or rhythm change in the orchestra, keep his personal style while staying firmly within his orchestra's "texture", etc.

2 different jobs.

Those who mention the different lifestyles are right of course. There have been examples of successful soloists (not world-famous, but making a living), who chose to take an orchestra's entrance exam and ended up as very happy Konzertmeisters, as it suited their personality better.


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## Judith

Has any member of an orchestra gone on to be a soloist or is that not done!!

As you know, absolutely adore Joshua Bell but just recently following a violinist from Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra on Twitter(he follows me too) so now seeing the best of both worlds!!


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## Josquin13

Judith asked, "Has any member of an orchestra gone on to be a soloist or is that not done!!"

The late pianist Paul Jacobs used to be the 'house' pianist for the New York Philharmonic. He certainly had a fine solo career. Also, Glenn Dictorow, the New York Phil's 1st violinist, would sometimes perform as a soloist with the orchestra. Likewise, 1st violinist Norman Carroll would occasionally solo with the Philadelphia Orchestra. And, as I recall, the Boston Symphony Orchestra's long time 1st violinist, Joseph Silverstein did so too, and recorded Vivaldi's Four Seasons on Telarc, with Ozawa conducting. He also recorded the Barber Violin Concerto--so Silverstein definitely had a solo career for a time. In addition, members of the Cleveland Orchestra performed as soloists during Szell's tenure--such as Robert Marcellus, Rafael Druian, and Abraham Skernick on Szell's classic recording of Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante & Clarinet Concerto. I'd also be surprised if members of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's famed brass section haven't performed as soloists with orchestras, that is, in addition to the CSO. Certainly the legendary horn player Hermann Baumann was a member of various orchestras before becoming a soloist. Likewise, James Galway played 1st flute in the Berlin Philharmonic. As did clarinetist Sabine Meyer, who at the start of her career was the first female musician to play in the Berlin Philharmonic. (I could go on.) So, in answer to your question, yes, it definitely happens.

By the way, as a member of the Boston Symphony Chamber Players, Joseph Silverstein made some wonderful chamber music recordings--such as their classic LPs of the Brahms String Quintets 1 & 2 (for Nonesuch) and Debussy chamber works (on DG, now superbly remastered by Pentatone). Other orchestras have similar well known chamber groups--in Berlin, Vienna, Leipzig, Amsterdam, Montreal, etc. The excellent Leipzig Gewandhaus String Quartet, for example, has long been comprised of members of the Gewandhaus Orchestra. Which reminds me that another spin off of the Gewandhaus Orchestra & Quartet was the Suske Quartet, and their first violinist, Karl Suske had a solo career--albeit mostly in East Germany at the time. The Staatskapelle Dresden's Lugwig Güttler has had a brilliant solo career too, as a trumpet player & conductor. His very fine Virtuosi Saxoniae are comprised of 1st chair musicians from the Staatskapelle Dresden. The Montreal Chamber Players are first class too. They did a wonderful CD of French Chamber works on Atma, which includes a very fine performance of Debussy's late masterwork, the Sonata for Flute, Harp, & Viola, along with works by Roussel, Ropartz, & Koechlin:

https://www.amazon.com/Autour-Harp-...5657&sr=1-1&keywords=montreal+chamber+players

https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Strin...sr=1-1&keywords=Boston+Chamber+players+brahms

https://www.amazon.com/Claude-Debus...7479&sr=1-1&keywords=debussy+pentatone+boston

https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Prel...&sr=1-1&keywords=Paul+Jacobs+debussy+preludes

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-St...keywords=Gewandhaus+beethoven+string+quartets--this set is a tremendous bargain at the moment.

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Co...=1-1&keywords=Suske+beethoven+string+quartets


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## Judith

Josquin13 said:


> Judith asked, "Has any member of an orchestra gone on to be a soloist or is that not done!!"
> 
> The late pianist Paul Jacobs used to be the 'house' pianist for the New York Philharmonic. He certainly had a fine solo career. Also, Glenn Dictorow, the New York Phil's 1st violinist, would sometimes perform as a soloist with the orchestra. Likewise, 1st violinist Norman Carroll would occasionally solo with the Philadelphia Orchestra. And, as I recall, the Boston Symphony Orchestra's long time 1st violinist, Joseph Silverstein did so too, and recorded Vivaldi's Four Seasons on Telarc, with Ozawa conducting. He also recorded the Barber Violin Concerto--so Silverstein definitely had a solo career for a time. In addition, members of the Cleveland Orchestra performed as soloists during Szell's tenure--such as Robert Marcellus, Rafael Druian, and Abraham Skernick on Szell's classic recording of Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante & Clarinet Concerto. I'd also be surprised if members of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's famed brass section haven't performed as soloists with orchestras, that is, in addition to the CSO. Certainly the legendary horn player Hermann Baumann was a member of various orchestras before becoming a soloist. Likewise, James Galway played 1st flute in the Berlin Philharmonic. As did clarinetist Sabine Meyer, who at the start of her career was the first female musician to play in the Berlin Philharmonic. (I could go on.) So, in answer to your question, yes, it definitely happens.
> 
> By the way, as a member of the Boston Symphony Chamber Players, Joseph Silverstein made some wonderful chamber music recordings--such as their classic LPs of the Brahms String Quintets 1 & 2 (for Nonesuch) and Debussy chamber works (on DG, now superbly remastered by Pentatone). Other orchestras have similar well known chamber groups--in Berlin, Vienna, Leipzig, Amsterdam, Montreal, etc. The excellent Leipzig Gewandhaus String Quartet, for example, has long been comprised of members of the Gewandhaus Orchestra. Which reminds me that another spin off of the Gewandhaus Orchestra & Quartet was the Suske Quartet, and their first violinist, Karl Suske had a solo career--albeit mostly in East Germany at the time. The Staatskapelle Dresden's Lugwig Güttler has had a brilliant solo career too, as a trumpet player & conductor. His very fine Virtuosi Saxoniae are comprised of 1st chair musicians from the Staatskapelle Dresden. The Montreal Chamber Players are first class too. They did a wonderful CD of French Chamber works on Atma, which includes a very fine performance of Debussy's late masterwork, the Sonata for Flute, Harp, & Viola, along with works by Roussel, Ropartz, & Koechlin:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Autour-Harp-...5657&sr=1-1&keywords=montreal+chamber+players
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Strin...sr=1-1&keywords=Boston+Chamber+players+brahms
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Claude-Debus...7479&sr=1-1&keywords=debussy+pentatone+boston
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Prel...&sr=1-1&keywords=Paul+Jacobs+debussy+preludes
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-St...keywords=Gewandhaus+beethoven+string+quartets--this set is a tremendous bargain at the moment.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Co...=1-1&keywords=Suske+beethoven+string+quartets


Know the ASMF has a chamber ensemble and think Vienna Philharmonic does too!


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## Heck148

Judith said:


> Has any member of an orchestra gone on to be a soloist or is that not done!!


sure - Janos Starker - principal cello, MetOpera, and ChicagoSO, left in 1958, went on to brilliant career as soloist.
same with Steven Staryk, CSO concertmeister, just to mention a couple...


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## Holden4th

Here in Australia, Richard Tognetti is the director of the Australian Chamber Orchestra. He has also performed as a soloist with many visiting conductors and orchestras, such is the level of his artistry. His complement in Europe is someone like Giuliano Carmignola. 

I've always been impressed with the work of Michel Schwalbe, the lead of the BPO under Karajan. He could surely have been a great soloist but appeared to be happy playing with the Berliners

One thing that has to be taken into consideration is that much of the violin repertoire is ensemble based and booking an orchestra for a concerto performance means looking years ahead. It is much easier to work as part of a trio, quartet or play sonatas. For a pianist, it is so much easier to play recitals. 

Bottom line, music is your bread and butter so go for where the regular money is.


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## Larkenfield

Queequeg said:


> Basically are the major violin concertos so difficult that the only few world class violinists like heifetz, oistrakh, mutter, hahn, jansen, etc are talented enough to perform them in concert? Are violinists in the top professional orchestras like NY or Berlin philharmonic good enough to perform them or even only the principal violinists? Where would these professional soloists fall if they auditioned for those top orchestras?


 Concertmasters are not expected to be on the same level as a Hahn or a Heifetz. If they had the same ability as a soloist, why would they be content as a concertmaster or section player at all? It's a completely different lifestyle if you're a soloist, one that requires far more emotional stamina, technical facility and consistency, travel, the ability to endure public pressure, the desire for the greatest in challenge rather than sitting more comfortably in a string section. Nevertheless, the expectations of a concertmaster or section player are still incredibly high and frequent mistakes are not tolerated. Undoubtedly, some of the players could do justice to some of the violin concertos but without rising to the greatest possible level of performance.


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## fluteman

DiesIraeCX said:


> I hope someone knowledgeable answers this! I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to things like this (and so many other things regarding music!). I myself have wondered about this very question. Could the "First Violinists" of the world's greatest orchestras (Vienna, Berlin, Amsterdam, etc.) be (successful) soloists for Violin Concertos, for instance?


Very much so. Joseph Silverstein, long the concertmaster of the Boston Symphony, also had a busy solo and chamber music career before he turned mainly to conducting. William Preucil was the first violinist of the Cleveland Quartet before becoming concertmaster of the Cleveland Orchestra. Jaap van Zweden was a star soloist before becoming concertmaster of the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra at a very young age, and he ultimately became a conductor, currently of the NY Philharmonic.

It's probably more a question of lifestyle and personality whether top violinists take a concertmaster position and/or turn to conducting rather than spending a career on the road playing a handful of famous concertos in all the world's major cities. The life of a touring soloist can be very hard, and many turn away from it partly or entirely well before they are ready to retire.


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## fluteman

Josquin13 said:


> Judith asked, "Has any member of an orchestra gone on to be a soloist or is that not done!!"
> 
> The late pianist Paul Jacobs used to be the 'house' pianist for the New York Philharmonic. He certainly had a fine solo career. Also, Glenn Dictorow, the New York Phil's 1st violinist, would sometimes perform as a soloist with the orchestra. Likewise, 1st violinist Norman Carroll would occasionally solo with the Philadelphia Orchestra. And, as I recall, the Boston Symphony Orchestra's long time 1st violinist, Joseph Silverstein did so too, and recorded Vivaldi's Four Seasons on Telarc, with Ozawa conducting. He also recorded the Barber Violin Concerto--so Silverstein definitely had a solo career for a time. In addition, members of the Cleveland Orchestra performed as soloists during Szell's tenure--such as Robert Marcellus, Rafael Druian, and Abraham Skernick on Szell's classic recording of Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante & Clarinet Concerto. I'd also be surprised if members of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's famed brass section haven't performed as soloists with orchestras, that is, in addition to the CSO. Certainly the legendary horn player Hermann Baumann was a member of various orchestras before becoming a soloist. Likewise, James Galway played 1st flute in the Berlin Philharmonic. As did clarinetist Sabine Meyer, who at the start of her career was the first female musician to play in the Berlin Philharmonic. (I could go on.) So, in answer to your question, yes, it definitely happens.
> 
> By the way, as a member of the Boston Symphony Chamber Players, Joseph Silverstein made some wonderful chamber music recordings--such as their classic LPs of the Brahms String Quintets 1 & 2 (for Nonesuch) and Debussy chamber works (on DG, now superbly remastered by Pentatone). Other orchestras have similar well known chamber groups--in Berlin, Vienna, Leipzig, Amsterdam, Montreal, etc. The excellent Leipzig Gewandhaus String Quartet, for example, has long been comprised of members of the Gewandhaus Orchestra. Which reminds me that another spin off of the Gewandhaus Orchestra & Quartet was the Suske Quartet, and their first violinist, Karl Suske had a solo career--albeit mostly in East Germany at the time. The Staatskapelle Dresden's Lugwig Güttler has had a brilliant solo career too, as a trumpet player & conductor. His very fine Virtuosi Saxoniae are comprised of 1st chair musicians from the Staatskapelle Dresden. The Montreal Chamber Players are first class too. They did a wonderful CD of French Chamber works on Atma, which includes a very fine performance of Debussy's late masterwork, the Sonata for Flute, Harp, & Viola, along with works by Roussel, Ropartz, & Koechlin:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Autour-Harp-...5657&sr=1-1&keywords=montreal+chamber+players
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Strin...sr=1-1&keywords=Boston+Chamber+players+brahms
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Claude-Debus...7479&sr=1-1&keywords=debussy+pentatone+boston
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Prel...&sr=1-1&keywords=Paul+Jacobs+debussy+preludes
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-St...keywords=Gewandhaus+beethoven+string+quartets--this set is a tremendous bargain at the moment.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Co...=1-1&keywords=Suske+beethoven+string+quartets


Great post, similar to what I was trying to say but I was much too lazy to give all those particulars. By the way, James Galway played in the London Symphony in the late 60s before joining the Berlin Philharmonic, and his colleagues there included violist Neville Marriner and hornist Barry Tuckwell. The great cellist Janos Starker was principal cellist of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra in New York and then the Chicago Symphony under Fritz Reiner.


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## fluteman

Larkenfield said:


> Concertmasters are not expected to be on the same level as a Hahn or a Heifetz. If they had the same ability as a soloist, why would they be content as a concertmaster or section player at all? It's a completely different lifestyle if you're a soloist, one that requires far more emotional stamina, technical facility and consistency, travel, the ability to endure public pressure, the desire for the greatest in challenge rather than sitting more comfortably in a string section. Nevertheless, the expectations of a concertmaster or section player are still incredibly high and frequent mistakes are not tolerated. Undoubtedly, some of the players could do justice to some of the violin concertos but without rising to the greatest possible level of performance.


It can work the other way around. David Nadien was a great violin soloist who took the concertmaster position with the NY Philharmonic, but orchestral playing did not suit him and he soon resigned. (Nadien actually earned his living as the king of studio violinists, but his outstanding virtuoso solo recordings remain well-known today.) Edit: But sometimes it works out well. Carter Brey is a great cello soloist who took the principal cello position at the NY Philharmonic after establishing his solo career and still holds it. As I said, some soloists decide they do not want a life on the road. An orchestra chair, especially an endowed principal chair, together with a teaching position at a major conservatory, and occasional solo performances, can provide good money and much less travel and more stability.


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## Groooooove

I would be shocked if every violinist in a symphony like NY or Berlin didn't have the capabilities to perform nearly any concerto. 

soloist is a different person than an orchestra member, I think its just a different professional goal to be that person. it's the difference between being a cast member on a comedy show vs being a stand up comedian (kind of) 

I know Edison Ruiz is one of the finest double bass soloists I've ever heard (I am a double bassist, and I suppose soloist, as well so this is my area of expertise so to speak) and he's seated 8 out of 11 in the Berlin philharmonic. He can play the famous concerti every bit as good - if not in many cases better (!) than the famous soloists like Karr, Paradzik, or Meyer.


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## les24preludes

Violinists go where the work is, and many as noted have been both Concertmasters and soloists, and some in addition have been leaders of string quartets. It doesn't have to be an either-or thing at all.

I have spoken to a few Concertmasters (European "Leader of the Orchestra") over the years and they pretty much all said it was more straightforward to play a concerto than lead an orchestra. Maybe not what you'd expect them to say - they felt it was less pressure.


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## fluteman

Groooooove said:


> I would be shocked if every violinist in a symphony like NY or Berlin didn't have the capabilities to perform nearly any concerto.
> 
> soloist is a different person than an orchestra member, I think its just a different professional goal to be that person. it's the difference between being a cast member on a comedy show vs being a stand up comedian (kind of)
> 
> I know Edison Ruiz is one of the finest double bass soloists I've ever heard (I am a double bassist, and I suppose soloist, as well so this is my area of expertise so to speak) and he's seated 8 out of 11 in the Berlin philharmonic. He can play the famous concerti every bit as good - if not in many cases better (!) than the famous soloists like Karr, Paradzik, or Meyer.


Thanks, and that is not surprising. I've heard the "Acting Associate Principal" clarinetist of the NY Philharmonic (a fancy name for second clarinetist) Pascal Martinez Forteza in recital, and he is simply spectacular. Of course, the first (principal) clarinetist, Anthony McGill, is one of the biggest clarinet stars in the world today. I've heard him in recital too, and his virtuosity is mind-boggling. Berlin principal flutist Emmanuel Pahud is arguably the best known, and best flutist in the world today. (Much as many of you may be fans of James Galway, he is now 78 and performs only occasionally).


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## howlingfantods

I'm no violin expert but I'm a fan of the Beethoven concerto recording that Furtwangler did in 1944 with Erich Rohn, the concertmaster for the Berlin Phil at the time. The chops aren't at the rarefied level of a Heifetz but they're more than good enough, the tone is sweet and beautiful and the music making is excellent. If someone played it for me blind and told me it was some famous violinist I was less familiar with, I would have believed them. I believe after the war, Rohn ended up a concertmaster at another German orchestra, although I don't recall which one. 

The older I get, the less I believe in pure meritocracy, especially in celebrity and the performing arts. I suspect a lot of who is most famous has quite a lot to do with luck and marketability.


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## TMHeimer

My guess would be that anyone in a major (or probably an "almost" major) symphony can pretty much play anything. There are so few full time jobs and so many gazillion violinists that those who win the auditions are the best of the best. Probably a sizable % of those who audition and don't win can also play anything. 
A clarinet chair opens in a symphony and 200 people try out.
How many terrific clarinet players are out there when you consider how many start out in elementary school bands in the U.S. alone? Those 14 year olds who can play the Nielsen Concerto.
From the ridiculous to the sublime: How many great unknown singers have we seen on those American Idol type shows?


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## Heck148

fluteman said:


> Thanks, and that is not surprising. I've heard the "Acting Associate Principal" clarinetist of the NY Philharmonic (a fancy name for second clarinetist) Pascal Martinez Forteza in recital,


The two positions Associate principal and 2nd chair are indeed different.
the Associate principal will almost always play principal on some piece of the program [unless the program consists of just one work - ie - Mahler #8, etc..] The associate principal will cover for the principal if the/she is on leave, on vacation, out for medical, etc....the associate principal will play 3rd or utility if a larger section is called for.
the 2nd chair plays 2nd to whichever of the principals is playing...
different positions.


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## Heck148

TMHeimer said:


> A clarinet chair opens in a symphony and 200 people try out.


more like 500-600...
they screen the original applicants by video tape recording....and some musicians, those incumbent in major orchestra positions, major soloists, are usually not required to submit a recording, but are invited to perform in person along with those selected from the recordings....each orchestra may vary to some degree, but that's the basic format at present...

a musician who is rejected at the recording submission may still play in person if he/she wants to.....it's just that the audition committee, by its rejection, is telling that musician that his/her chances of success are not good....still, it can happen - BSO bassoon principal in the early 90s.....Rich. Swoboda did not make it thru the tape submission. He requested to play anyway, and got the job....


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## JeffD

PlaySalieri said:


> Probably most orch members will have started out wanting to be a great soloist - what else could drive someone to slog 4- 6 hours a day to reach the level required? But most are not good enough - simple as that.


I question that.



> Some are good enough but not prepared for the sacrifices - 8 hours a day practice for one thing.


I wonder if this is not more often the case. Not at least originally a problem of not good enough, but a problem of not wanting it enough.

Or discovering their bliss in contributing rather than soloing.

I dunno.


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## fluteman

Heck148 said:


> The two positions Associate principal and 2nd chair are indeed different.
> the Associate principal will almost always play principal on some piece of the program [unless the program consists of just one work - ie - Mahler #8, etc..] The associate principal will cover for the principal if the/she is on leave, on vacation, out for medical, etc....the associate principal will play 3rd or utility if a larger section is called for.
> the 2nd chair plays 2nd to whichever of the principals is playing...
> different positions.


Yes, I understand the distinction. I think Forteza is still technically the no. 3 clarinet player. Though the no. 1 chair was vacant for a long time after the retirement of Stanley Drucker, in concerts I attended during that period, Forteza always played 2nd clarinet throughout, never 1st. Now he is the acting no. 2 clarinet player as "Acting Associate Principal" since the no. 2 chair is vacant, but if someone else is eventually appointed permanent Associate Principal (which would be a mistake in my opinion), Forteza would go back down to no. 3.

Edit: And speaking of the NY Philharmonic, principal cellist Carter Brey is undoubtedly one of the world's best and had an established career as a soloist before deciding to take the orchestra position. (Rumor has it his performance in the auditions was well beyond that of the other candidates.)


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## Heck148

Carter Brey appeared with one of my orchestras many years back, not too long before he won the NYPO position...he played a Haydn Concerto, really nailed it....then, for each concert, he joined the cello section, sat in the back, for the 2nd half, which was Sibelius Sym #2!! It's so awesome to put a really heavy hitter in the back of the section!!


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## Enthalpy

I don't believe soloists play better than orchestra violinists.

There are so many excellent violinists presently that orchestra take incredible virtuosi just to play a tremolo from time to time as a second violin. I don't know how these violinists cope with that. They were the absolute over-talented students among many hundreds, they sacrificed everything to get that level, and among these only a handful enter an orchestra to play dead easy scores and earn a living from music.

Learn the bassoon, the oboe, the tuba, the harp. DO NOT learn the violin, the piano, the flute, the clarinet, the trumpet.

Sure, soloist is a different way of life. Will your children recognize you next time you're home? Will you retire before your plane crashes? Is it better to keep your wristwatch at Universal Time?

Among the criteria to be a successful soloist, I'd add: be cute. Yes, in classical music too. Or: marry a conductor, it helps a lot.

==========

Someone asked which violinist can play concertos. At present violin level, about all concerti are easy. Difficult scores are rather the Ysaÿe sonatas, some pieces by Paganini, Wieniawski, Sarasate, Ernst (notably the Erlkönig)... all written by violinists.

Many soloists have never dared to play these in public. No, I won't cite anybody. Search by yourself: the best known violinists are not necessarily the best known ones.

An other cruel reality is that violinists get old as quickly as soccer players do. Above 40, they can bring a better interpretation, but the technique weakens. Oistrakh, Kremer were exceptions. Older soloists revert to nice but easier pieces. Alas, artists get famous late.

So it happens often that many violinists in an orchestra play much better than the invited soloist. This must not be easy.

==========

One example among hundreds, just because I saw the record recently: first violin section of the Staatsorchester Stuttgart




Many soloists avoid to play that piece in public.


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## 1996D

Enthalpy said:


> Among the criteria to be a successful soloist, I'd add: be cute. Yes, in classical music too. Or: marry a conductor, it helps a lot.


It certainly didn't use to be this way, almost all soloists of the past are quite ugly.

I think they are much better, Oistrakh, Perlman, Heifetz, are on a completely different level.


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## Enthalpy

I believe present violinists are as good as or better than the past ones. Above all, there are many more of them now, which hampers building a legend.

Don't forget the age when comparing.


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## Enthalpy

After Lilian Heere here above, an other example of an orchestra violinist, Enrico Palascino, from the Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Berlin
bR2FPziMfsw at 59s​Very few violin soloists dare to play in public Ernst's Erlkönig, one of the very most difficult pieces for the violin. He does it cleanly and nicely.


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## ClassicalMaestro

I would think it's more difficult to play in an orchestra vs solo playing. For one you have to be a great sight reader.


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## mikeh375

I've been fortunate enough to have worked with many fine string players here in the UK, some rank and file and some well known. I know that all of them can rattle off concertos quite satisfactorily, in fact given the high standards required and highlighted in posts above, a technique and musicality that can perform to the highest standards is the bare minimum one expects and that's often at the student level, before pro life even begins.

Some players do have something about them however that earmarks them out for special consideration and admiration, crucially from other players.


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## SanAntone

I don't think it is so much a skill level as a personality difference. Orchestral players probably have the same level of technical capability but do not have the ambition for a solo career - and no doubt many are members of chamber groups which might offer more individual moments to shine.


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## mikeh375

^^ yes, I'd say personality is a big factor too. Confidence, apart from being a natural trait and something earnt with study, will also derive from peer adoration, the realisation that what you do is being admired and praised by your fellow musicians, many of whom are equally adept.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

ClassicalMaestro said:


> I would think it's more difficult to play in an orchestra vs solo playing. For one you have to be a great sight reader.


The musicians do practice the music - a lot - before performances so it's not like they are sight reading during them. The score usually is used as a reference. Having said that, all classically trained musicians are great sight readers, including the soloists, since sight reading is part of their training.


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## ClassicalMaestro

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> The musicians do practice the music - a lot - before performances so it's not like they are sight reading during them. The score usually is used as a reference. Having said that, all classically trained musicians are great sight readers, including the soloists, since sight reading is part of their training.


I play double bass and the orchestra pieces are much longer, you're working with a conductor and you have to pay attention and count the rests. There's a lot more skill that goes into orchestra playing vs solo playing. Don't get me wrong it's not easy standing on that stage alone. Soloist usually choose their repertoire and practice it constantly.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

ClassicalMaestro said:


> I play double bass and the orchestra pieces are much longer, you're working with a conductor and you have to pay attention and count the rests. There's a lot more skill that goes into orchestra playing vs solo playing. Don't get me wrong it's not easy standing on that stage alone. Soloist usually choose their repertoire and practice it constantly.


Oh no doubt about that. My point was that musicians don't sight read what they are performing unless it's pretty simple music. My definition of sight reading is that you're playing music you're seeing for the first time without having practised it before.


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## Merl

Becca said:


> Daniel Strabawa - age 61, joined BPO in 1983
> He was a first violinist in the Berlin Philharmonic for three years before becoming one of the three First Konzertmeister. In 1985 Stabrawa and three colleagues from the orchestra founded the Philharmonia Quartet, which has appeared with great success in Berlin and other international music centres all over the world. Since 1994, Daniel Stabrawa has been increasingly active as a conductor.


Stabrawa is a very fine violinist and capable soloist. He has a lovely fluid style and, as 1st violin in the Philharmonia Quartet Berlin, produced some fine recordings, (a very underrated Beethoven SQ cycle amongst them) along with other former BPO members. He's trained some of the world's best violinists at the BPO Academy and given regular masterclasses. I think he concentrates on conducting these days.


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## Branko

Reviving the thread a little.....I agree with most answers here, but would just like to add perhaps the obvious : it depends what level solo playing one expects. 

Wind and brass soloists in top orchestras are just that: soloists. Their workload and their level of instrumental and musical expertise allows them to perform as chamber players and soloists. Good contemporary examples are the Ottensamer boys. And I would eat my hat if not all 1st horn players from top orchestras are fit to be soloist. The reason lies in the nature of the instrument. Only the best will do to withstand the pressure of the repertoire - in top orchestras. 

With string players this is not quite true to the same level. Yes, concertmasters and principal cellists come close to it in some cases, but it is an exception, even with players coming from top orchestras. 
I hate to say it, but playing in an orchestra tends to ruin a string players technique for solo work to some extent IF the orchestral work load is too high. There are reasons for this. One is that a section/tutti player simply has not enough time to practice and keep up his/her skills at home. But the section leaders tend to have fewer work sessions scheduled and so have more time for practice as well as downtime. Downtime is really important for relaxing the muscles involved. Tension causes a lot of problems, which come to the forefront when you try to play a solo or even chamber part. You will not notice it until you are put on the spot. The subtlety of the playing goes if a player becomes too tense and often the bowing becomes ever so slightly stiff, shaky and scratchy. The playing is still adequate for tutti orchestral play, especially when orchestral repertoire experience makes up for subtlety of technique. 
Also, a tutti/section string player cannot hear their own playing that well while they play within the orchestra, at least not as well as a wind/brass player can. This means that small habits can creep in and become reinforced on a daily basis. The muscle memory gets corrupted. All this works against a player, when they then suddenly try to break out of an orchestra and play their string instrument alone. 
The last aspect has to do with confidence. Once someone has played in an orchestra string section for several years, not as leader, but as tutti, it is quite hard to find that confidence on an empty stage again.


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## Enthalpy

One more example of a violinist perfectly capable of playing solo who integrated an orchestra: *Ekaterina Valiulina*




I prefer her tempi to what better known violinists did, and she plays very nicely this sonata. Excellent on Bach's Ciaccona too, certainly better than many soloists I've heard (... and than the ones who don't play the Ciaccona in public):
sIktwYS0nkQ
On the Tzigane recording, she was very young. She'd play it differently now.

Want to hear her? She's at the Orchestra della Svizzera italiana.

===========

I easily believe that orchestra violinists lose their top level more quickly than soloist do. In the fist line because they don't need it to play tremolo, tugudugudugudugudu.


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## Branko

Enthalpy said:


> Want to heat her? She's at the Orchestra della Svizzera italiana.


Interesting, thank you. What position does Ms Valiulina hold in the orchestra? Also, are her YT videos from before or after joining? 

I listened to a YT chaconne of hers and the start of the Ysaye. Of course, it is decent playing. Further than that it all depends on what you expect from a soloist.


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## Enthalpy

My mistake! She hasn't joined the orchestra and plays solo. She studied at the Conservatorio della Svizzera Italiana and was accompanied by the orchestra
ekaterina-valiulina.com

What do we await from a soloist? That depends on each listener... But one objective claim is that many known soloists don't play as nicely as she does, or even, avoid to play these difficult pieces in public.


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