# Messiaen - Help Me Understand This Composer!



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Ok, for the most part I pride myself in having a great range of music I can appreciate. If a composer is a big name, I will generally find something very worthwhile in their music and appreciate it. From minimalist composers to guys like Stockhausen and Xenakis I can enjoy much of their work. That is why I am slightly baffled by my inability to really connect with Messiaen's compositions (not that I hate them, I just don't connect with them or understand them very well in relation to how popular they seem to be). There are a number of members of TC who hold this composer in high regards, I respect your opinions, so I am asking for those of you who appreciate Messiaen, help enlighten me as to what it is about this composers music that you find enjoyable, why he is so relevant as a composer and what do his compositions make you feel? Please give examples of pieces you like and why you like them.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

First, I think there is nothing wrong with not liking Messiaen, or liking just some of his pieces and not liking others. It's impossible that everything will appeal to everyone. 

About his relevance, this is a little bit more objective. If you make some research, I think you will easily conclude Messiaen is one of the most referenced composers of the 20th century, and this trend is growing and growing.

Personally, I like most the first and the last Messiaen. That means basically, from his first works up to the 1950s, and from _Des canyons aux étoiles_ until his death.

A list of my favourites will include _Quatuor pour la fin du temps_, his song cycles _Poèmes pour Mi_ and _Harawi_, the _Turangalîla_ symphonie, _Des canyons aux étoiles_, his opera _Saint-François d'Assise_ and his last piece _Éclairs sur l'au-delà_. My guess from your post is that you already know all or many of them.

In any case, I will recommend to deepen your familiarity with _Turangalîla_, that is a quite accessible piece, and enjoy in particular the two _Chant d'amour_ and the elusive _Jardin du sommeil d'amour_, coming just after the dynamic dance _Joie du sang des étoiles_. If you don't like that, it's almost certain you won't like anything Messiaen's, unless you are a fan of serialism and can take pleasure from some of his works in the 1950s and 1960s, inspired by the avant-garde movements of the period.

A very good version of _Turangalîla_ is fully uploaded to youtube:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I am not as wide in my knowledge of Messiaen's output as schigolch, but I have enoyed his music for a little over 10 years now.

Hearing his _Quartet for the End of Time _live last year was very moving & special. I think I connect with it deeply as my family went through the war in Europe. I think you know the story behind this, that Messiaen was a prisoner of war when he wrote it. It is filled with bird-song, & based on the _Book of Revelation _from_ The Bible_, but you don't have to know the details of that to enjoy it and take it in naturally. Messiaen took a number of scores with him in the camp to study and play when he could, these included J.S. Bach and Webern. I think aspects of the former's spirituality and the latter's atonality and interest/obsession with mathematics kind of permeate this work and became hallmarks of Messiaen's style.

There are two movements marked eulogies in this work, one for cello and one (the final movement) for violin, both with piano accompaniment. These are meditative pieces, they are very spiritual, like being on another planet. When I heard it live, I saw that the string players playing these movements slipped into a kind of deep "zone" during the recital. It can go on and on forever, it has these cyclical repetitions, but Messiaen restricts them to about 10 minutes each. In the final eulogy, the violin breaks the sound barrier and soars up and up to the highest register, it is like going up to heaven to see God. The whole work takes around 45-50 minutes to perform.

This is my favourite work by him and also one of my favourite chamber works of all time, esp. of the c20th. It basically tells the story of how he and countless others got through their ordeals in those most difficult of times. Basically through human love, camraderie, nature and God/spirituality. This work is like food for the soul.

There are some other works I like by him. _Harawi_ is very good, so is _Poemes pour Mi_. The tone poem _Les Offrandes Oubilees _makes a deep impact, a clear three part slow-fast-slow structure. _Un sourir _is quite fun, a tribute to Mozart but not like his music at all, only in mood/vibe but certainly not in terms of style. His early _8 Preludes for piano _speak to the influence of Debussy, and are not hard to digest. His _Variations_ for violin and piano & _Un Merle Noir _for flute and piano are similar, kind of early modernist.

I think that the _Turangalila-Symphonie _& the _Vingt Regards _are harder for me to grasp, esp. being so long. I have to be in the right mood to listen to them (which kind of applies to most of his music, it does require some mental commitment, it can be very lush and luscious in some ways but it is no walk in the park at the same time).

To boil things down, all of his works I have heard are quite different from eachother, but what I like about it is his humanity, spirituality, and a kind of imaging of the human condition in many ways, incl. both spiritual and physical love, his music doesn't come across to me as being dogmatic or bigoted in any way, although he was very religious...


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## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

I discuss (and provide a link to) a fine _Turangalila _recording in my blog this week:
http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/itywltmt/410-la-chronique-du-disque.html

As for the _quatuor pour la fin du temps_, a link here:
http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/itywltmt/387-luna-nova-ensemble.html

I think you could also do some reading about the man, his life and how religion plays a huge/huge part in his music. Lots of things available on the Web...

In the more _accessible _Messaien department, try this (link has streaming samples):
http://www.analekta.com/en/album/Messiaen-Les-Oiseaux.549.html


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Messiaen seems to be, for the most part, meditative and atmospheric, but dramatically stagnant. 

Listen to the first movement of that quartet everyone obsesses about (for good reason). It sounds like ambient music from a rainforest. You hear birdcalls from the violin and clarinet, and subdued isorhythms in the cello and piano. It doesn't go anywhere dramatically, it's meant to evoke a meditate spirit. And it's very beautiful.

That work is probably the most representative of his output as a whole-check it out.


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## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

Ravellian said:


> Messiaen seems to be, for the most part, meditative and atmospheric, but dramatically stagnant.


I didn't quote your whole above intervention - I do think you make good points and agree that the _quatuor _is clearly one of Messaien's most introspective works.

I would, however, suggest that most of his orchestral music is probably not "dramatic" but is certainly a "display of excess". Messaien can be overbearing (sp?) with his use of orchestral power and energy (as I said, _excessive_). The best examples of this are _Turangalila _and _Eclairs Sur L'Au-Dela _. That having been said, Messaien waers his emotions "on his sleeve", shall we say. He uses excess as a way of expressing these emotions.

That's my take, anyway...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Ravellian said:


> Messiaen seems to be, for the most part, meditative and atmospheric, but dramatically stagnant.
> 
> Listen to the first movement of that quartet everyone obsesses about (for good reason). It sounds like ambient music from a rainforest. You hear birdcalls from the violin and clarinet, and subdued isorhythms in the cello and piano. It doesn't go anywhere dramatically, it's meant to evoke a meditate spirit. And it's very beautiful.


i think you're right about his strenghts and his limits (or in a more correct way, his personality as a composer). Messiaen is not a musician for those who like to hear a lot of movement. In a sense, he could be considered (like jehan alain?) a middle point between scriabin and debussy, and ligeti or scelsi. His music is often very static and contemplative, and his harmonic language creates an otherworldly soundworld that is totally his own.





pure oneirism in music





pure terror in music


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I enjoyed Turangalilia for a couple of listens, but after that I got tired of the bombast. It goes on too long for my interest.

I much prefer Quartet For The End Of Time; and Eclairs... recorded by Simon Rattle on the EMI label. The subtlety, beauty and maturity of Eclairs has much more appeal for me. There are also some dynamic, muscular sections as well. As for the quartet, I'm not sure about the consensus concerning the definitive recordings? I have a Delos CD pairing this work with Barok's Contrasts.

I've also been listening to a beautiful choral music disc conducted by Myung-Whun Chung. Actually this CD contains a more recent instrumental piece as well. It's one of those abstract birdsong inspired pieces which may or may not be of interest? The choral work, Trio petites liturgies... is a religious work from 1943. Pretty easy on the ears.


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

norman bates said:


> pure terror in music


That was great. I'ma buy some of his organ stuff now, since the only other organ piece I have heard by him also greatly impressed me:






2:41 to 5:27 is incredible.


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## pluhagr (Jan 2, 2012)

I think Messiaen is all about color. His music is so absolutely colorful. He himself talks about the color is music. There is also an interesting article by Kandinsky where he talks about color in music. Messiaen paints a picture for me, a lovely abstract picture that moves me emotionally.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

What's not to understand?


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

tdc said:


> Ok, for the most part I pride myself in having a great range of music I can appreciate. If a composer is a big name, I will generally find something very worthwhile in their music and appreciate it. From minimalist composers to guys like Stockhausen and Xenakis I can enjoy much of their work. That is why I am slightly baffled by my inability to really connect with Messiaen's compositions (not that I hate them, I just don't connect with them or understand them very well in relation to how popular they seem to be). There are a number of members of TC who hold this composer in high regards, I respect your opinions, so I am asking for those of you who appreciate Messiaen, help enlighten me as to what it is about this composers music that you find enjoyable, why he is so relevant as a composer and what do his compositions make you feel? Please give examples of pieces you like and why you like them.


I thought his opera, _Saint François d'Assise_ (premiered 1983, composed over 8 years) was relatively enjoyable. You see, opera is a genre that takes a real composer certain skills and talents to produce a piece that works for the development of the story involving the emotions of human characters. It's not a genre for "cowboy composers" to "experiment", in the sense that they might do when it comes to instrumental music/noise. In this opera, Messiaen (who was a devout Catholic, hence the religious theme of this piece) used extensive orchestral forces and leitmotif to develop the characters' role in the opera. I thought there was dramatic coherence overall, and not loosing touch with the religious feeling, yet well paced in the drama of the (long) work. About 4 hours in total, a test for any music lover.

This was an excellent (2008) production that I have on DVD.









Sample clip.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> What's not to understand?


A while back I came across this post in the current listening thread by member NightHawk:

_ I learned this about her (Gubaidulina) on Wiki:

"In conversation she is most keen to stress that she cannot accept the idea (a frequent post-serial one) of rhythm or duration as the material of a piece. . . . To her, rhythm is nowadays a generating principle as, for instance, the cadence was to tonal composers of the Classical period; it therefore cannot be the surface material of a work. . . . *he expresses her impatience with Messiaen, whose use of rhythmic modes to generate local imagery, she feels, restricts the effectiveness of rhythm as an underlying formal level of the music*.[15]
To this end, Gubaidulina often devises durational ratios in order to create the temporal forms for her compositions. Specifically, she is prone to utilizing elements of the Fibonacci sequence or the Golden Ratio, in which each succeeding element is equal to the sum of the two preceding elements (i.e., 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, etc.). This numerical layout represents the balanced nature in her music through a sense of cell multiplication between live and non-live substances. She firmly believes that this abstract theory is the foundation of her personal musical expression. The "Golden Ratio "between the sections are always marked by some musical event, and composer explores her fantasy fully in articulating this moments."

Bartok also used the Fibonacci series in his music as well as the 'Golden Section', the value .618 to determine the climatic point in a finite number of bars and for other applications as well. I find Gubaidulina's music to be spiritual in the same way that Bartok's is. Really appreciate knowing about her - anyone else in this extreme direction that you like? cheers. _

http://www.talkclassical.com/1005-current-listening-846.html#post237734

I found the comment in bold by Gubaidulina quite interesting, and I think she may have helped pin-point one of the main difficulties I have with Messiaen. Though I should add I found the forum members insights into Messiaen's music were also helpful in me gaining an understanding of this composer's strong points.


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