# Thought Provoking Art (W/ a Focus on Music)



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Does music that makes you think and feel deeply about life equate to being more intellectual?

Which composers do you find to be the most thought provoking? We can extend the discussion to outside of Classical if the mods permit, that is, what artists of any medium do you find to be the most thought provoking?


1. I think deep thought does equate to being more intellectual.
2. Beethoven, Ravel & Debussy come to mind right away as being rather introspective in nature. Jim Jarmusch, a film director, makes movies that really make me think and feel on a very deep level. Van Gogh is my favorite painter, and his works allow me to introspect and really pull me into their worlds.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> 1. I think deep thought does equate to being more intellectual.


I think that is stating the obvious haha. To me Debussy is not intellectual at all, but more sensual, the way he manipulates colour, etc. into "impressions". Beethoven is the only composer pre-20th century I consider whose music is intellectual, not Bach, not Mozart, not Brahms. In the 20th Century, it is only Bartok, Prokofiev, Scriabin, and Webern for me. Not Schoenberg, not Carter, not Varese, not Stravinsky, not Shostakovich. Music that tickles my brain. The rest is all sensual to me.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I think that is stating the obvious haha. To me Debussy is not intellectual at all, but more sensual, the way he manipulates colour, etc. into "impressions". Beethoven is the only composer pre-20th century I consider whose music is intellectual, not Bach, not Mozart, not Brahms. In the 20th Century, it is only Bartok, Prokofiev, and Webern for me. Not Carter, not Varese, not Stravinsky, not Shostakovich. Music that tickles my brain. The rest is all sensual to me.


Sometimes the sensual leads to a deeper thought, though. I would almost argue, if it lacks sensuality, it ceases to be moving and thus thought provoking in a meaningful way.

Something can be interesting and thought provoking in that way, but that doesn't get us to introspect or think about the world and societal issues.

Now what gets us to the state of deep thought can have slight variance, but I think there would be some general consensus.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Something can be interesting and thought provoking in that way, but that doesn't get us to introspect or think about the world and societal issues.


So what is the definition of thought-provoking music? I thought that was just called music. My favorite composers provoke my thoughts and imagination in a deep way, but I doubt people would agree that they do.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Ethereality said:


> I thought that was called music. So what is the definition of thought-provoking... My favorite composers provoke my thoughts, my imagination, in a deep way, but I doubt people would all agree.


I don't understand, could you explain what you are trying to say?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Ethereality said:


> So what is the definition of thought-provoking music? I thought that was just called music. My favorite composers provoke my thoughts and imagination in a deep way, but I doubt people would agree that they do.


Music that gets you to reflect rather than simply being the reflection itself.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Sometimes the sensual leads to a deeper thought, though. I would almost argue, if it lacks sensuality, it ceases to be moving and thus thought provoking in a meaningful way.
> 
> Something can be interesting and thought provoking in that way, but that doesn't get us to introspect or think about the world and societal issues.
> 
> Now what gets us to the state of deep thought can have slight variance, but I think there would be some general consensus.


There is no music that makes me think of societal issues, I'm thankful for that. For me music that is more abstract, but still is logical and makes sense, works more intellectually, since there is little to latch onto in terms of melody, impressions, moods.



Captainnumber36 said:


> Music that gets you to reflect rather than simply being the reflection itself.


That's deep man haha. I love this thread. Is this from you being into New Age?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> There is no music that makes me think of societal issues, I'm thankful for that. For me music that is more abstract, but still is logical and makes sense, works more intellectually, since there is little to latch onto in terms of melody, impressions, moods.
> 
> That's deep man haha. I love this thread.


I think the music you praise makes you think intellectually about the music, not life.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think the music you praise makes you think intellectually about the music, not life.


That's true. I think about life better without music. I guess Cage's 4'33" works best that way.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Is this from you being into New Age?


No, it wasn't. 15 characters must be had!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

What is thought? Is emotion not thinking? Is feeling not a form of thought? We differ in our styles of thinking and I don't think it makes sense to talk about one form of responding to music as superior to another. Even if you believe that some music is superior to other music, this is the case.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> What is thought? Is emotion not thinking? Is feeling not a form of thought? We differ in our styles of thinking and I don't think it makes sense to talk about one form of responding to music as superior to another. Even if you believe that some music is superior to other music, this is the case.


Feeling is not thinking. Emotions are felt, not thought. If we articulated our emotional states rather than express them, that is a thought using the tool of introspection.

I'm not talking about superiority in art, I was just pondering if some art was more thought provoking and deeper than others, and I do think some are more intellectual than others, not better though.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Does music that makes you think and feel deeply about life equate to being more intellectual?
> 
> Which composers do you find to be the most thought provoking? We can extend the discussion to outside of Classical if the mods permit, that is, what artists of any medium do you find to be the most thought provoking?
> 
> ...


Yes, I think about, reflect on the music I listen too - I don't just have some instinctive "response" to it (whether emotional or something else).
Yes, it can me think about the meaning of life, about politics, about relationships, about me and my family...
No, I don't care to assert the depth of my thinking, or compare my depths with someone else's.

("Being more intellectual" sounds like risky territory to me - more intellectual than what or whom?)


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Yes, I think about, reflect on the music I listen too - I don't just have some instinctive "response" to it (whether emotional or something else).
> Yes, it can me think about the meaning of life, about politics, about relationships, about me and my family...
> No, I don't care to assert the depth of my thinking, or compare my depths with someone else's.
> 
> ("Being more intellectual" sounds like risky territory to me - more intellectual than what or whom?)


It could be that the job is all within the listener to choose whether or not he/she wants to introspect. But perhaps some art gives a little more meat to work with too.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It could be that the job is all within the listener to choose whether or not he/she wants to introspect. But perhaps some art gives a little more meat to work with too.


Or different meat? Or veg?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Or different meat? Or veg?


No, I think some Art provides a lot more to ponder upon and is deeper, not better. Not everyone wants deep Art! (Let me think about this a bit).


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Feeling is not thinking. Emotions are felt, not thought. If we articulated our emotional states rather than express them, that is a thought using the tool of introspection.


I think you are wrong! There are several ways (styles?) for arriving at a conclusion. One of those is more cerebral. Another is emotional and still another is almost physical. If these are not thought, what are they? To elevate the cerebral above other methods of understanding the world (or music) is to deny the insights of many whose style is not led by the cerebral.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> I think you are wrong! There are several ways (styles?) for arriving at a conclusion. One of those is more cerebral. Another is emotional and still another is almost physical. If these are not thought, what are they? To elevate the cerebral above other methods of understanding the world (or music) is to deny the insights of many whose style is not led by the cerebral.


You should explain your stance on how emotions and physical matter are thoughts.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Once emotions have been articulated through speech, written language, film, music and etc, then that is a thought but the emotion itself is simply a reaction that colors our near future conversations, unless we are good at managing them.

I have no idea how the physical could be thought of as a thought.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Thinking, emotion, feeling are all very fast processes that we are not conscious of. What enters our consciousness comes later and is often rationalisation rather than original thought. So the idea that we have an emotion and then express it is a misleading oversimplification. It isn't at all easy to separate thinking from the other two as ways of knowing the world. You are talking, I think, of our conscious experience. 

To respond to the OP, I have a fairly cerebral cognitive style but still don't think that music provokes thoughts in the way you mean. That would involve believing that music had a meaning in the same way that words do. This may sometimes be the case (in a limited way) for those who know a lot of music theory but not for the rest of us, I think.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> Thinking, emotion, feeling are all very fast processes that we are not conscious of. What enters our consciousness comes later and is often rationalisation rather than original thought. So the idea that we have an emotion and then express it is a misleading oversimplification. It isn't at all easy to separate thinking from the other two as ways of knowing the world. You are talking, I think, of our conscious experience.
> 
> To respond to the OP, I have a fairly cerebral cognitive style but still don't think that music provokes thoughts in the way you mean. That would involve believing that music had a meaning in the same way that words do. This may sometimes be the case (in a limited way) for those who know a lot of music theory but not for the rest of us, I think.


It would work this way. The music invokes an emotional response within you, and your mind begins to drift to other things in your life that relate to that emotion.

That is what I'm talking about.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Feeling is not thinking. Emotions are felt, not thought. If we articulated our emotional states rather than express them, that is a thought using the tool of introspection.
> 
> I'm not talking about superiority in art, I was just pondering if some art was more thought provoking and deeper than others, and I do think some are more intellectual than others, not better though.


Agree with this. Feeling is instinctive, and may be at odds with reason. Going back to top 40 Billboard music, it appeals to base feelings, that many Classical fans find brainless.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Agree with this. Feeling is instinctive, and may be at odds with reason. Going back to top 40 Billboard music, it appeals to base feelings, that many Classical fans find brainless.


Lots of New Age appeals to base emotions as well I feel.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2019)

Phil loves classical said:


> Agree with this. Feeling is instinctive, and may be at odds with reason.


Is emotion actually emotion if it has not been identified as such by reason? I don't think "instinct" is quite the same as "emotion", though they are closely connected.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> No, I think some Art provides a lot more to ponder upon and is deeper, not better. Not everyone wants deep Art! (Let me think about this a bit).


The question I'm trying to answer is, what makes Art deep?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Is emotion actually emotion if it has not been identified as such by reason? I don't think "instinct" is quite the same as "emotion", though they are closely connected.


Most people have a very low emotional IQ and aren't aware, that doesn't mean they aren't experiencing them left and right.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It would work this way. The music invokes an emotional response within you, and your mind begins to drift to other things in your life that relate to that emotion.
> 
> That is what I'm talking about.


By which you must mean that you first become aware of an "emotional response" and having experienced that you become aware that your mind has drifted to other times that you have experienced similar feelings. The trouble with consciousness is that it tends to be filled with whole ideas that represent the best fit that your unconscious mind can find for the data (the music and your immediate reaction to it). These whole ideas often misrepresent the data either because the data is ambiguous or because it doesn't fit with who you like to feel you are.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Most people have a very low emotional IQ and aren't aware, that doesn't mean they aren't experiencing them left and right.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion

Even this wiki summary points out the challenges acknowledged in defining "emotion".

I'm pretty sure I "fell in love" with my wife, and that that "falling" was not merely an instinct (some warm fuzzy feelings in my heart, stomach and, er, elsewhere) but also an intellectual and verbal confirmation. For anyone, of any IQ, who has ever fallen in love, the process is, I would argue, the same, though 'process' makes it sound more slow and deliberate than it should.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> By which you must mean that you first become aware of an "emotional response" and having experienced that you become aware that your mind has drifted to other times that you have experienced similar feelings. The trouble with consciousness is that it tends to be filled with whole ideas that represent the best fit that your unconscious mind can find for the data (the music and your immediate reaction to it). These whole ideas often misrepresent the data either because the data is ambiguous or because it doesn't fit with who you like to feel you are.


It happens naturally, it isn't forced.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion
> 
> Even this wiki summary points out the challenges acknowledged in defining "emotion".
> 
> I'm pretty sure I "fell in love" with my wife, and that that "falling" was not merely an instinct (some warm fuzzy feelings in my heart, stomach and, er, elsewhere) but also an intellectual and verbal confirmation. For anyone, of any IQ, who has ever fallen in love, the process is, I would argue, the same, though 'process' makes it sound more slow and deliberate than it should.


Emotional IQ is the ability to be aware of your emotional states and articulate/manage them.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

The best music makes me proud to be a human being. No more, no less.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion
> 
> Even this wiki summary points out the challenges acknowledged in defining "emotion".
> 
> I'm pretty sure I "fell in love" with my wife, and that that "falling" was not merely an instinct (some warm fuzzy feelings in my heart, stomach and, er, elsewhere) but also an intellectual and verbal confirmation. For anyone, of any IQ, who has ever fallen in love, the process is, I would argue, the same, though 'process' makes it sound more slow and deliberate than it should.


The falling in love with your wife is definitely emotional, and could be linked with reason. Is she rich, beautiful, intelligent, share same interests, etc.? If she was poor, ugly, mean, etc. and you are still in love then it is pure emotion(al slavery). What about infatuations? I think we all guys have been infatuated at least once with someone who's sexy, even knowing she would wrench our hearts out and burn them (same can apply to opposite gender to be fair), we could even fool ourselves feeling it is worth it, or worth dying for.

Maybe for some of us our intellectual side has evolved we curb our instinctive desires, and only allow it with someone we reason is worth the sacrifice (marriage, etc.). That would explain why some candidates have it all in terms of reason, but we are still not willing to make the plunge.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Emotional IQ is the ability to be aware of your emotional states and articulate/manage them.


Yes. I read the Daniel Goleman book that popularised the term back in the 90s.



Phil loves classical said:


> The falling in love with your wife is definitely emotional, and could be linked with reason. Is she rich, beautiful, intelligent, share same interests, etc.? *If she was poor, ugly, mean, etc. and you are still in love then it is pure emotion(al slavery).*


Yes, the falling in love was definitely emotional, but it wasn't only emotional - it was linked with reason.

I'm not sure about your last two sentences, especially the idea that if I fell in love with someone who is poor, that would be emotional slavery. IMO, reason here is not about making some kind of rational assessment of the practical value of being in love ("I'll stick with this one because she's rich") but about how the recognition of being in love and acting on that combined emotion and recognition will then give effect to being in love - showing through my words and deeds that I am in love.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Yes. I read the Daniel Goleman book that popularised the term back in the 90s.
> 
> Yes, the falling in love was definitely emotional, but it wasn't only emotional - it was linked with reason.
> 
> I'm not sure about your last two sentences, especially the idea that if I fell in love with someone who is poor, that would be emotional slavery. IMO, reason here is not about making some kind of rational assessment of the practical value of being in love ("I'll stick with this one because she's rich") but about how the recognition of being in love and acting on that combined emotion and recognition will then give effect to being in love - showing through my words and deeds that I am in love.


I think you love others for what they have to offer, but the ones related to character are the best judge for chemistry. Practical matters such as finances are important too, though, when considering marriage.


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