# SOPRANO TOURNAMENT (By Request): Battle of the Elisabeths - Grümmer vs Schwarzkopf



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Elisabeth Grümmer, Germany, 1911-1986






Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Germany, 1915-2006






'Elsa's Dream' from Wagner's _Lohengrin_.

Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

This is an interesting match. Two of the leading German lyric sopranos of the postwar years, Grummer and Schwarzkopf were delightfully cast as Hansel and Gretel in the wonderful Karajan recording on EMI, and they presented there, as here, highly contrasting vocal and artistic personalities. Grummer's warmth, simplicity and directness made her a natural embodiment of innocent, early Romantic heroines such as Weber's Agathe and Wagner's Eva, Elsa and Elizabeth, in all of which she remains arguably unsurpassed in the years since. Schwarzkopf, more overtly artful and always searching for expressive nuances like the Lieder singer she was, was ideal as the urbane and sophisticated ladies of Strauss's drawing rooms and boudoirs. Both sopranos excelled in extensive repertoires and are well-documented in recordings.

I suppose almost everyone knows all of that already, but I needed to stall for time! I'd say offhand that Grummer's singing of this little narration is exactly what I want from an Elsa, and I find nothing to criticize (except the abrupt cutoff of the music in the YouTube clip). The singer is just slightly past her prime here, but only an acquaintance with her earlier work would tip us off. What we prize in her singing - the fresh sweetness, the naturalness and warmth, the fine phrasing and clear diction - are all on display. 

Schwarzkopf offers something different, a distinctive conception which takes it's cue from the "dream" aspect of Elsa's story. Most of the aria is sung softly and inwardly, as if to emphasize that Elsa is reliving her dream rather than merely relating it. I find it valid and effective (though i wonder how it would come across in the theater), and listening to it after Grummer I was almost ready to award Schwarzkopf the blue ribbon for her imagination and subtlety. But then I went back and listened again to Grummer, and was more aware than I had been the first time around of the delicate nuances of tone, dynamics and enunciation which, while not drawing attention to themselves as Schwarzkopf's do, nonetheless give life and character to the music. 

My final impression - and not an unexpected one - is that Grummer embodies the innocent Elsa easily and naturally, all but vanishing into the character, the art never drawing attention to the artist, while Schwarzkopf presents an interesting interpretation that never lets us forget that she is an interesting artist doing interesting things. I don't necessarily consider this "meta" perspective a fault in a singer, especially one as intelligent, imaginative and vocally refined as Schwarzkopf; I think we have much the same experience when Callas takes on innocent, girlish characters such as Gilda and Mimi, where the art is fascinating enough to allow us to enjoy both the character and the singer's envisioning of the character in terms of vocal qualities that in a less creative artist would seem unsuitable.

The projection of innocence, in particular, doesn't always come easily to artists with complex, analytical natures, or to voices of certain timbres. For me, Grummer was born to it, and Schwarzkopf - her restless mind ever searching and never satisfied - wasn't. For Schwarzkopf I have great admiration; for Grummer, simple, unquestioning love.


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## Concertantek364 (Mar 13, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> This is an interesting match. Two of the leading German lyric sopranos of the postwar years, Grummer and Schwarzkopf were delightfully cast as Hansel and Gretel in the wonderful Karajan recording on EMI, and they presented there, as here, highly contrasting vocal and artistic personalities. Grummer's warmth, simplicity and directness made her a natural embodiment of innocent, early Romantic heroines such as Weber's Agathe and Wagner's Eva, Elsa and Elizabeth, in all of which she remains arguably unsurpassed in the years since. Schwarzkopf, more overtly artful and always searching for expressive nuances like the Lieder singer she was, was ideal as the urbane and sophisticated ladies of Strauss's drawing rooms and boudoirs. Both sopranos excelled in extensive repertoires and are well-documented in recordings.
> 
> I suppose almost everyone knows all of that already, but I needed to stall for time! I'd say offhand that Grummer's singing of this little narration is exactly what I want from an Elsa, and I find nothing to criticize (except the abrupt cutoff of the music in the YouTube clip). The singer is just slightly past her prime here, but only an acquaintance with her earlier work would tip us off. What we prize in her singing - the fresh sweetness, the naturalness and warmth, the fine phrasing and clear diction - are all on display.
> 
> ...


Everything here is so beautifully put and astutely analysed. All these just sum up my feelings toward these two patrician artists who in their contrasting ways illuminate the German lyric/lyric-dramatic soprano repertoire. Nothing much to add, except pointing out that when any comparison between them is done, one's reaction depends to a significant degree on which role. When it comes to innocent, early Romantic heroines such as Weber's Agathe and Wagner's Eva, Elsa and Elizabeth, Grümmer easily holds the trump card (at least to me). When it comes to more sophisticated, worldly and complex characters such as Fiordiligi in Così fan tutte, Der Feldmarschallin in Der Rosenkavalier and the Countess Madeleine in Capriccio, these are the kind of roles that suit the vocal personality exuded by Schwarzkopf to a T and she is peerless in these. In this particular contest, I am unhesitatingly giving the palm to Grümmer. Suppose if the two were compared in roles like Fiordiligi or Countess Madeleine, my voting inclination would most likely be the other way round.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Thanks, Bonetan. I asked for this comparison, as these are my favourite two performances of this aria. It's insidious to have to choose of course, but that's what alll these comparisons are about, after all.

And thank you, Woodduck, for your wonderful appraisal. I agree with you 100%, and yet ... and yet ... I'm going with Schwarzkopf, possibly because it's the performance I got to know the aria from, before I'd ever heard the whole opera and possibly because Schwarzkopf is one of my all time favourite singers. I probably should vote for Grümmer, who, as you say, more naturally embodies the character, and I think most people will vote for her, but I love Schwarzkopf's detail and imagination so much that ultimately she is my choice, even if I also agree with Concertante when he says Schwarzkopf was more of a natural for roles like Fiordiligi, the Countesses in *Le Nozze di Figaro* and *Capriccio* and of course the Marschallin.

I'd just add that both voices are surpassingly beautiful, firm and perfectly placed and both sing with superb legato. In the words of John Gay, "How happy could I be with either, Were t'other dear charmer away!"


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Another difficult one for me as I am completely unfamiliar with the aria.
All I hear is an aria that seems to be all on one level with few highs or lows to judge. So then it becomes a study in which voice brings out the most from what is offered me. I found Schwarzkopf's had a bit more drama and also gentleness for me to grab onto.
It is a difficult aria for me to pick a clear winner from two voices who to me are very much alike.

I have just read Woodduck's post (I never read others' posts before I vote) and found it to be extremely interesting in helping me understand what I was supposed to be listening for. So for that I thank him very much despite my choice of Schwarzkopf.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I listened to Schwarzkopf first – everything is in its proper place, the tone beautiful and controlled, the text admirably uttered, the imagined virgin projected for our delectation. 

Then there is Grümmer. Enough said. Voted for her.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> This is an interesting match. Two of the leading German lyric sopranos of the postwar years, Grummer and Schwarzkopf were delightfully cast as Hansel and Gretel in the wonderful Karajan recording on EMI, and they presented there, as here, highly contrasting vocal and artistic personalities. Grummer's warmth, simplicity and directness made her a natural embodiment of innocent, early Romantic heroines such as Weber's Agathe and Wagner's Eva, Elsa and Elizabeth, in all of which she remains arguably unsurpassed in the years since. Schwarzkopf, more overtly artful and always searching for expressive nuances like the Lieder singer she was, was ideal as the urbane and sophisticated ladies of Strauss's drawing rooms and boudoirs. Both sopranos excelled in extensive repertoires and are well-documented in recordings.
> 
> I suppose almost everyone knows all of that already, but I needed to stall for time! I'd say offhand that Grummer's singing of this little narration is exactly what I want from an Elsa, and I find nothing to criticize (except the abrupt cutoff of the music in the YouTube clip). The singer is just slightly past her prime here, but only an acquaintance with her earlier work would tip us off. What we prize in her singing - the fresh sweetness, the naturalness and warmth, the fine phrasing and clear diction - are all on display.
> 
> ...


*Love* this, Woodduck!


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Easy vote for Grümmer.
And Woodduck's writeup is both informative and delightful, bravo!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I must say it rather saddens and surprises me that so many are saying it's an easy vote for Grümmer, as if Schwarzkopf wasn't any good at all. For me t wasn't easy at all. Not in the least bit, and though I ended up voting differently from Woodduck, like him I found it difficult to choose between two wonderful singers, who represent perhaps different sides of the interpretive coin. I understand a preference for Grümmer, and, as I said in my post above, I expected her to emerge the winner, but I still think Schwarzkopf hard to beat. Such wonderful artistry is rare indeed and not something to be taken for granted.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I must say it rather saddens and surprises me that so many are saying it's an easy vote for Grümmer, as if Schwarzkopf wasn't any good at all. For me t wasn't easy at all. Not in the least bit, and though I ended up voting differently from Woodduck, like him I found it difficult to choose between two wonderful singers, who represent perhaps different sides of the interpretive coin. I understand a preference for Grümmer, and, as I said in my post above, I expected her to emerge the winner, but I still think Schwarzkopf hard to beat. Such wonderful artistry is rare indeed and not something to be taken for granted.


Absolutely. Schwarzkopf is unique, and so is her interpretation here. These competitions are often inherently unfair - apples and oranges, or at least oranges and tangerines - and there may not be an obvious winner. But so long as we understand that, we can enjoy the artistic riches and the variety of voices and interpretations.

My feeling is that Elsa, viewed as a person (though the concept of "person" in Wagner warrants caution, since symbolism is always lurking), is in no way a complex sort of character. Basically she's just a teenage girl, dreamily romantic and trying to feel more sure of herself than she actually is. But she is after all the creation of the same man who created Senta, whose maniacal obsession with her own spooky romantic hero might be viewed as a touch more psychologically suspect (or, in non-psychological terminology, weirder). Ortrud insists that Elsa is guilty of fratricide, and there must be some regietheater types who fervently wish they could run with that (and for all I know they've tried).

We don't know what was in Schwarzkopf's mind as she formed her interpretation of Elsa's narrative, but the reflective, dreamlike quality of it does at least suggest that _Lohengrin_ may be something more than the basic good vs. evil fairy tale it appears to be. Wagner himself left remarks that portray the knight in shining armor as a tragic figure, yearning for understanding and love in a world where the intuitive perception of beauty and truth have been lost, and where people think that to know something's name and origin is to know it in its essence (presaging the "false" realm of Day and the "true" realm of Night in _Tristan_). Extrapolating just a little from this, we might view Elsa as Lohengrin's dream, every bit as much as he is hers. As Elsa relates her vision, the people around her exclaim, "How extraordinary! Is she dreaming? Is she enraptured?" Schwarzkopf's dreamy portrayal certainly justifies their description of Elsa's demeanor.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I must say it rather saddens and surprises me that so many are saying it's an easy vote for Grümmer, as if Schwarzkopf wasn't any good at all. For me t wasn't easy at all. Not in the least bit, and though I ended up voting differently from Woodduck, like him I found it difficult to choose between two wonderful singers, who represent perhaps different sides of the interpretive coin. I understand a preference for Grümmer, and, as I said in my post above, I expected her to emerge the winner, but I still think Schwarzkopf hard to beat. Such wonderful artistry is rare indeed and not something to be taken for granted.


I agree, and voted accordingly. However, I also just ordered the Kempe recording. I didn't know until I looked it up but Franz Liszt conducted the premier of Lohengrin. That is one performance I would liked to have been around for.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I voted Grümmer, her slight waver notwithstanding, probably because she was my imprint Elsa. I love Schwarzkopf though and this was a difficult choice. I don’t have a complete Lohengrin with Schwarzkopf as Elsa so it’s difficult to say overall who was the better Elsa. One ‘aria’ isn’t really enough to compare.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> I voted Grümmer, her slight waver notwithstanding, probably because she was my imprint Elsa. I love Schwarzkopf though and this was a difficult choice. I don't have a complete Lohengrin with Schwarzkopf as Elsa so it's difficult to say overall who was the better Elsa. One 'aria' isn't really enough to compare.


Schwarzkopf never sang the role on stage. This and the duet with Ortrud (with Ludwig) is all she recorded. The duet is well worth seeking out.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

I red the Mighty Duck, The Londoner Tsar and I agreed with Nina, but, because I'm in love with* Elisabeth,* I voted for her. This is a stellar level of performance, something the mankind will never see again and I'm happy to participate in such historical singer fights. Thanks to all of you.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Dimace said:


> I red the Mighty Duck, The Londoner Tsar and I agreed with Nina, but, because I'm in love with* Elisabeth,* I voted for her. This is a stellar level of performance, something the mankind will never see again and I'm happy to participate in such historical singer fights. Thanks to all of you.


One might ask which Elisabeth, though. (I checked and you went for Dame Elisabeth).


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

I first should probably confess that Schwarzkopf was my first "favourite singer". Before I really knew anything about singing (one could very well argue I still know nothing about singing), for whatever reason, she consistently engaged and demanded my attention. She also has a rather unique timber to her voice, almost a shimmering quality, that I find incredibly beautiful, but I've learned on this forum that some have divergent opinions on the matter.

I do agree that in a sense Grummer makes more sense in this aria. The performance is more straightforward, and much more "Wagnerian". However, I think some are being rather harsh on Schwarzkopf's performance. Her choices, although artistically unusual, are not out of line for an innocent uncomplicated girl; wide-eyed dreamy and slight sense of otherworldliness is surely not out of character here. Although Schwarzkopf could be very mannered she generally restrained herself to simple singing (i.e., not too mannered) for simple characters (e.g., listen to her Mimi) and I find here is no exception.

Ultimately though, the reason I voted for Schwarzkopf over Grummer is because Schwarzkopf engaged me more. Whether it was what I wrote above, my long-standing admiration for her singing, or a random act of a capricious god, I'm sticking by it even after reading all the praise heaped on Grummer.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^I don't think anyone has been harsh on Schwarzkopf. Who on earth could be harsh on anything as beautiful as her singing here? Only someone genuinely allergic to the sound of her voice, I'd imagine, and there isn't a singer who doesn't provoke allergic reactions in someone. I agree with your observation that she could sometimes sound mannered (and not everyone agrees with this either), but doesn't here.

Tsaraslondon may confirm my recollection that this performance is part of a collection of arias by Wagner and Weber, as is the Elsa-Ortrud scene ("Euch luften...") which he posted above. We got the two soprano arias from _Der Freischutz _ in that collection, and I remember them being sung as exquisitely as these exerpts from _Lohengrin._ I do suspect that if Schwarzkopf's singing of Agathe's arias were set beside Grummer's, I'd be as regretful in choosing Grummer - my ideal Agathe - there as I was here.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> ^^^I don't think anyone has been harsh on Schwarzkopf. Who on earth could be harsh on anything as beautiful as her singing here? Only someone genuinely allergic to the sound of her voice, I'd imagine, and there isn't a singer who doesn't provoke allergic reactions in someone. I agree with your observation that she could sometimes sound mannered (and not everyone agrees with this either), but doesn't here.
> 
> Tsaraslondon may confirm my recollection that this performance is part of a collection of arias by Wagner and Weber, as is the Elsa-Ortrud scene ("Euch luften...") which he posted above. We got the two soprano arias from _Der Freischutz _ in that collection, and I remember them being sung as exquisitely as these exerpts from _Lohengrin._ I do suspect that if Schwarzkopf's singing of Agathe's arias were set beside Grummer's, I'd be as regretful in choosing Grummer - my ideal Agathe - there as I was here.


They were on this LP, which is now part of the Schwarzkopf Recitals box. I'm not sure if it was released on CD separately.










Aside from the *Freischütz* and *Lohengrin* items already mentioned it also included Elisabeth's arias from *Tannhäuser*.

They were previously available on this LP,










which also included arais from *The Bartered Bride* and *Eugene Oneigin* (sung in German),*Otello*, *La Bohème* and *Gianni Schicchi*. Both discs are amongst my favourite Schwarzkopf recital discs.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

I have an active dislike of Schwarzkopf - both her voice and her personality. So this was easy.


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## Viardots (Oct 4, 2014)

Virtually all great operatic artists possessing strong and highly distinctive vocal and artistic personalities invite divergent opinions. Callas has been a (too) often-mentioned example. Schwarzkopf is no exception and even Grümmer does (e.g. I have encountered a reviewer on Opera Depot's website who criticised Grümmer's 1959 role debut in Berlin as the Marschallin in Der Rosenkavalier as 'sounding like an old woman', a view which I vehemently disagree).

I voted for Grümmer in this particular role/aria. I came to Grümmer rather late in my opera-listening experience yet she was one of those whom I took very soon to my heart. Not only does she have a beautiful, radiant, youthful sounding voice, her utter directness, sincerity, spontaneity and naturalness of expression are also important factors that made me fall in love with her. Dramatically she is no slouch at all (she started off as a theatrical actress before taking on operatic singing and clearly her earlier theatrical experience was a great asset when it comes to vocal acting, interpretation and meaningful articulation of libretto text). Like Woodduck and Concertante, I think her vocal and artistic personality are truly ideal for the early Romantic operatic heroines and the lighter lyric/lyric-dramatic soprano roles in Wagner's operas.

Where Schwarzkopf is concerned, my responses towards her are admittedly rather mixed.

As I started my opera-listening experience with Mozart, I encountered her much earlier than Grümmer. _Gramophone_ magazine reviews played a significant role in introducing me to Schwarzkopf. In the later 1980s and 1990s, most of the Mozart operatic recordings and vocal recital discs were covered by critics Alan Blyth and John Steane. Steane was always full of praises towards her (later on I came to learn he has been her super-fan), whereas Blyth's reactions towards her tend to be more moderate - while acknowledging her extraordinary artistry, he always seemed to have some hidden reservations and later in his life he became more open and vocal about his reservations towards her. Based on the reviews and recommendations in the Gramophone and the Gramophone Good CD Guide, I bought the 1959 EMI/UK Columbia recordings of Don Giovanni and Figaro, both conducted by Giulini. Her Figaro Countess has great aristocratic poise, dignity and elegance but one is able to sense that she is also capable of the feminine wiles of the character's earlier self in Rossini's Barbiere. Her Donna Elvira is fiery and dramatic in her fury against the Don and suitably conflicted and anguished towards the Don later in the opera. Similar to Callas, she is unfailingly adept and skilful in employing her wide palette of tonal colours to characterise different emotions and mental states and capable of shaping words and phrases meaningfully and with dramatic precision.

There is hardly any doubt at all to me that Schwarzkopf is a great artist and her voice has a naturally beautiful shim that is both charming and attractive. But unfortunately, even right from the beginning, there was (and still is) something that kept and keeps me, even prevented (prevents) me from taking her to my heart, however much I had tried to. Such feeling grew as I listened to more and more of her recordings. I have come to think that the best explanation for such feeling is: her art is undoubtedly great, but somehow it fails to conceal itself (I understand there can be disagreement over this point). When I listen to Schwarzkopf, while admiring her artistry and the natural beauty of her voice, I have been at the same time made all too aware of all the hard work and painstaking calculations that go into her portrayals (I have read that the influence of Walter Legge had a role in the formation and development of her work ethic), so much so that to me this robs at least some degree of naturalness and spontaneity from her portrayals. Perhaps her real-life personality is somehow reflected in her vocal and artistic personalities and seeps into them: a highly determined, ambitious person, totally and thoroughly dedicated and committed to her work, a perfectionist fastidious in working out this and that details, highly demanding to herself and to others to the point of being didactic (as recalled by Sena Jurinac, her regular stage partner in Der Rosenkavalier, in an interview with OPERA NEWS in 2006). Such qualities, when reflected in the voice and artistry of a singer, can be admirable and understandable, but admittedly are not particularly endearing and can be rather distancing (again, I understand there can be disagreement over this).

I agree with Concertante that Schwarzkopf is ideal in more complex, worldly, urbane and sophisticated operatic characters and indeed where the role and artistic and vocal personalities match perfectly, I'll still be able to appreciate and enjoy Schwarzkopf. Grümmer of course remains as one of my all time favourite operatic artists for whom I have both love and admiration.


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