# Composers as polymaths



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm thinking here of composers who had deep interest in and where good at things outside of music. 'Renaissance man' is another word, and since many of these guys did a fair bit of travelling, the phrase _man of the world _is also apt here.

*Can you think of any composers like this?* Is it something you find interesting? Of course I include female composers too.

One that immediately springs to mind is *Camille Saint-Saens*, who apart from being a composer, pianist/organist and writer on music, did many other different things:

_Saint-Saëns was a multi-faceted intellectual. From an early age, he studied geology, archaeology, botany, and lepidoptery. He was an expert at mathematics ...he held discussions with Europe's finest scientists and wrote scholarly articles on acoustics, occult sciences, Roman theatre decoration, and ancient instruments. He wrote a philosophical work, Problèmes et mystères, which spoke of science and art replacing religion; Saint-Saëns's pessimistic and atheistic ideas foreshadowed Existentialism. Other literary achievements included...a volume of poetry, and ...a successful farcical play. He was also a member of the Astronomical Society of France; he gave lectures on mirages, had a telescope made to his own specifications, and even planned concerts to correspond to astronomical events such as solar eclipses._

Source at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Saint-Saëns

Its not necessarily relevant to their music, but it can be. It really depends. I can definitely hear Saint-Saens putting his travels to North Africa and Asia into his music. Listen to his _Piano Concerto #5 'Egyptian,' _which in the second movement has a tune the composer heard sung by boatmen on the Nile in Egypt, and even a short snippet of the piano imitating the sounds of gamelan, which he heard in Asia (presumably in French Indo-China, where he did go - its present day Vietnam).

*& in terms of some composers who were not interested in much outside of music, you might wish to discuss that too. *Eg. Beethoven and Bruckner are two composers that I can think of whose only passion was music, more or less. In any case, they where not as well read as the likes of Saint-Saens (or Liszt - but I'll leave him for others to discuss in depth).


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Babbitt was a mathematician. Ligeti was very interested in science.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Borodin as a prominent chemist certainly deserves a mention.


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

I can't be sure, but I think I recall mentions of Mendelssohn being an excellent painter and writer.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Schoenberg was also a painter. Here's a self portrait:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

StevenOBrien said:


> I can't be sure, but I think I recall mentions of Mendelssohn being an excellent painter and writer.


I have come across that info, esp. regards his painting. Here is a cd cover showing a painting he did of Italy (looks like Naples?), quite useful to put on cd covers!


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Hildegard was a prophet, a writer, a philosopher, and of course, a composer. She invented her own alphabet, and had visions when she was young.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Xenakis was an architect and mathematician, although these other disciplines were combined with his work as a composer in his mature career.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Jean-Jacques Rouseeau was also a noted composer and had a long standing feud with Rameau. Francois-Andre Danican Philidor was of course a legendary chess master in addition to his job as a musician to the royal court. Galileo was the son of a noted lutenist and composer and was trained to be one as well. One of his brothers also went on to be a lutenist and composer of distinction.
The playwright Juan del Encina was also a composer. Constantijn Huygens was equally noted as a poet, composer and diplomat.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Liszt was an _excellent_ womanizer.


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

...And Messiaen was a (in)famous ornithologist. In his case, his music was pretty much affected to the extent that one may not notice he/she listens to music but to...birds. Not bad at all! Science and music going hand in hand.

Principe


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

I forgot to mention that Guillaume de Machaut was also a renowned poet.

Whilst perhaps not a polymath I think Agostino Steffani would come under your 'man of the world' umbrella having served as a diplomat, ambassador and privy counciller, and a number of other distinguished political and administrative roles. He was also intimate with a number of noted scholars and thinkers including Leibniz.


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## Morgante (Jul 26, 2012)

_Athanasius Kircher._


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Rossini was more or less a chef.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Michael Nyman is an excellent photographer, not so good filmmaker. He was also a writer, a music critic and did an opera libretto for another composer.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

Schumann was a writer as well as a composer. I'll see if I can dig up some poems he wrote.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Frank Zappa was a filmmaker, essayist, lecturer, activist, social commentator, businessman (in addition to running his own companies, he also promoted and facilitated some business deals with post-communist Russia in the early 90s) and, for a brief time, served as Vaclav Havel's envoy to the United States, the relationship was cut short after US officials put pressure on Havel to stop doing business with him.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Charles Ives was one of the pioneers in life insurance and estate planning. He must have been very good at actuarial mathematics in order to develop the models that he must have used to determine rates and benefits. He became very rich from this business.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

John Cage was an expert mycologist (study of mushrooms).


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Eschbeg said:


> John Cage was an expert mycologist (study of mushrooms).


Mushrooms, eh?. Can I ask of what type?.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Well... let's just say _all_ types. *wink wink nudge nudge*

Moving right along...


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Actually it is interesting that compared to specialists in other fields composers tend to be more specialised. There are few polymaths, certainly in the true sense of the word.

Almost any famous mathematician that I can think of pre-1900 was a philosopher, and probably a theologist as well. Newton, Descartes, Leibniz. Many ancient Greek philosphers (Plato and Aristotle for example) also were mathematicians, astronomers, poets, scientists of various kinds. Leonardo da Vinci is the archetypal 'renaissance man'. This slowly changed towards the more single-minded approach generally seen today.

This is largely due to the attitude towards musicians as mere craftsmen that persisted until the late 18th century. They were rarely educated to do more than their trade.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

Lisztian said:


> Liszt was an _excellent_ womanizer.


Perhaps the most important skill of all..


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Good going guys.

Re what Ramako says, I think that composers kind of by default will be inclined to be interested in many things outside music. I mean you got literature mixed with music - like Shakepeare's plays or Goethe's 'Faust,' for example - and also the sciences. The case with Xenakis for example, his music does make me think of the curves/parabolic shapes put into sound (eg. his way of treating dynamics, a series of peaks and troughs, highs and lows) and of course a number of his pieces where inspired by buildings. Added to that, his work with using the newly emerging computer technology. And even other things like what's hinted at above of John Cage, I kind of see his as being like a hippy, and yeah they got into 'magic mushrooms.'

Another composer who came from a different background is *Elliott Carter*, who majored in literature and I think he also studied mathematics (both at Harvard). So his music does draw from literature, a number of his works are inspired by that. He later went to Paris to study with Nadia Boulanger, and I think he said that he was lucky to do most of his music education in Europe and not the USA, as the USA before 1945 was quite conservative (as was Australia, 'modern music' was thought to be anything beyond Beethoven's middle period, and this kind of idea persisted in some quarters up to the 1950's!).


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## SottoVoce (Jul 29, 2011)

aleazk said:


> Schoenberg was also a painter. Here's a self portrait:


"Schoenberg was a painter of considerable ability, whose pictures were considered good enough to exhibit alongside those of Franz Marc and Wassily Kandinsky (Stuckenschmidt 1977, 142)."


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Thomas Campion was an composer, poet, and physician.






Campion was an important Elizabethan poet... known for both the lyrics to his songs... which stand on their own as poetry... as well as for poetry written independent of music. he also wrote poems and masques which were set to music by other composers, including John Cooper (Coperario) and his comments "against the vulgar and unartificial custom of riming," inspires Samuel Daniel's famous essay, _Defence of Rhyme_.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I guess E.T.A. Hoffman was a composer. Does anyone know anything about his music? I've only read one of his short stories which I liked very much, and heard about his early review of Beethoven's 5th.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

If you were to mention this English classical era symphony writer to an astronomer, they might know who you were talking about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Herschel William Herschel was more important as an astronomer than as a composer.

Mendelssohn and Saint Saens are the closest I can think of to "Renaissance Men" from more recent times.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> I guess E.T.A. Hoffman was a composer. Does anyone know anything about his music? I've only read one of his short stories which I liked very much, and heard about his early review of Beethoven's 5th.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Lisztian said:


> Liszt was an _excellent_ womanizer.


So was John Bull, and quite prolific, having a way with young noble women. Maybe they aren't called the English _Virginalists_ for nothing. Also a spy and a sword fighter.

So there you have it, John Bull, taker of the virginity of upper class maidens, spy, sword fighter, composer. Doesn't get much better than that.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

A piece for violin and piano by Nietzsche:


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

^^^^^^
The Hoffman seems a little better. But good on Neitzche for doing that.


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

However, despite all these "polymaths", the greatest composers (or most of them) were those who were devoted to their "trade". Thanks to their exclusive dedication, we may have to enjoy Music of sublime nature. Thank God!

Principe


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Ramako said:


> Actually it is interesting that compared to specialists in other fields composers tend to be more specialised. There are few polymaths, certainly in the true sense of the word.
> 
> Almost any famous mathematician that I can think of pre-1900 was a philosopher, and probably a theologist as well. Newton, Descartes, Leibniz. Many ancient Greek philosphers (Plato and Aristotle for example) also were mathematicians, astronomers, poets, scientists of various kinds. Leonardo da Vinci is the archetypal 'renaissance man'. This slowly changed towards the more single-minded approach generally seen today.
> 
> This is largely due to the attitude towards musicians as mere craftsmen that persisted until the late 18th century. They were rarely educated to do more than their trade.


I think it is more due to the fact that, the further back in history you go, the less 'back catalogue' any one astronomer, composer or philosopher had t get to know. These days, there are have been so many practitioners in any of these disciplines that someone simply does not have enough lives to get to know it all. A specialist in, say, astrophysics simply doesn't have the time to write symphonies (let alone learn how to write them). A generalist, who might knock off the odd prelude, can only hope to have the simplest understanding of a science subject. I speak from experience!


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> I think it is more due to the fact that, the further back in history you go, the less 'back catalogue' any one astronomer, composer or philosopher had t get to know. These days, there are have been so many practitioners in any of these disciplines that someone simply does not have enough lives to get to know it all. A specialist in, say, astrophysics simply doesn't have the time to write symphonies (let alone learn how to write them). A generalist, who might knock off the odd prelude, can only hope to have the simplest understanding of a science subject. I speak from experience!


Well yes, except that Leonardo da Vinci - a Renaissance man if ever there was one - was contemporaneous with Josquin, who was a singer and composer. Descartes was contemporaneous with Monteverdi, and Goethe was a bit younger than Haydn, a bit older than Beethoven, and saw both Mozart's birth and death.

Your point is certainly however very true, and accounts for the decline of the polymath today.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Ramako said:


> Your point is certainly however very true, and accounts for the decline of the polymath today.


Or, to paraphrase something I learned very recently from being exposed to Nieztche thanks to the above post in this very thread, we're all just becoming "last men" and are moving away from the direction of the "ubermensch."


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> So was John Bull, and quite prolific, having a way with young noble women. Maybe they aren't called the English _Virginalists_ for nothing. Also a spy and a sword fighter.
> 
> So there you have it, John Bull, taker of the virginity of upper class maidens, spy, sword fighter, composer. Doesn't get much better than that.


Yeah, when the government actually ends up having to exile you from the country for womanizing you know things are getting out of hand.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Alejandro Azkárate is a renowned physicist and composer. He should have stuck to physics though.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> So was John Bull, and quite prolific, having a way with young noble women. Maybe they aren't called the English _Virginalists_ for nothing. Also a spy and a sword fighter.
> 
> So there you have it, John Bull, taker of the virginity of upper class maidens, spy, sword fighter, composer. Doesn't get much better than that.


Indeed. A man famous "for fingering of organs and virginals."


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## Ivanovich (Aug 12, 2012)

Rousseau was a popular opera composer in his day.


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## Ivanovich (Aug 12, 2012)

Eschbeg said:


> A piece for violin and piano by Nietzsche


This sounds very Schumann-esque, I am reminded of his violin sonatas.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Alejandro Azkárate is a renowned physicist and composer. He should have stuck to physics though.


So, you know how to spell 'physics', eh, trigonometry boy?.


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## Ondine (Aug 24, 2012)

It is thought that J. S. Bach was acquainted with Theosophical knowledge like that one of Jacob Böhme.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Apparently Haydn grew vegetables.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Re the decline of the polymath today, as talked about by Jeremy and others, I was reading an interview with Elliott Carter (in an old book, and interview done 20 years ago). Carter was saying that in his younger years (early to mid 20th century), intellectuals like him had wide ranging interests. His focus was not only music but also literature, he collected many first editions of books coming out around that time (he mentions for example James Joyce). There was also a kind of mission-like zeal to advocate and simply 'do' Modernism. & of course, many composers where politically involved (eg. Copland was a leftist and Carter was initially influenced by the populist aspect of his 'Americana' style, but after the war he departed from that). 

Before 1945, with the Great Depression and the war effort, composers were expected to (and did) pull their weight to fight various causes and reach out to the public at large. But this has kind of disappeared now. Music is still engaged with other areas but I think less so. The meaning of 'intellectual' is now really the same as a 'specialist' in any given area. I would hazard a guess that people in professions are not as engaged with other professions outside their field of expertise as they used to be. A real intellectual engages with ideas of many kinds, but today most intellectuals seem to be locked in their field. If I am harsh, I call them pseudo intellectual (especially the hard core ideological ones, who think they're fighting a war that's long over). But that's another issue maybe.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Dvorak was a butcher...in more ways than one! Hyuk hyuk!
:lol:


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2012)

Don't forget Frederick the Great!


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