# How to Make Classsical Music Appealing to Young People



## eohutchinson (May 10, 2015)

*New Classical Music Book Unravels Mystery of Classical Music to Young Persons*​


“Classical musical audiences are getting older, and older. If they are not replaced by a new crop of younger listeners that means more empty seats and even less revenue. At the same time, costs to run an orchestra, pay staff and management, and the musicians, aren’t going down. Eventually, there’s a breakpoint. The result could be staff cutbacks, fewer concerts, and in some cases orchestras folding completely. “

Noted classical musicologist Earl Ofari Hutchinson warns against this troubling and controversial concern in the world of classical music in his new book _A Young Person's Guide to Classical Music_ (Middle Passage Press).



Hutchinson says, “One especially gloomy classical music doomsayer went further. The headline of his piece said it all, “It’s Time to Let Classical Music Die.” His gripe was the seeming lack of ethnic diversity within classical music orchestras. He contended that this was a big reason so many young and not so young persons are the disappearing act in classical music.



“Loads of reasons have been given for the apparent absence of young persons from the concert halls. The concerts are too long, too boring, you must sit still interminably long in stone silence. You certainly can’t dance and sing to a symphony. It’s also said concerts are too costly and too robotic,” Hutchinson observes, “The more charitable answer is that young people aren’t regularly exposed to the music. Many public schools have cut back arts programs and instruction, eliminated field trips to concert halls, and invitations to classical musicians to perform at schools. There is some truth to all these explanations for the non-appearance of young people in the classical music concert halls.”



Hutchinson points out that there is no miracle or magic formula to get masses of young people rushing to classical music concerts. Classical music is no different than any other music, rock, pop, Reggae, R&B, Rap, Jazz, country and western, bluegrass, and other musical genres from everywhere else on the planet. It has its rabid fans, rabid detractors, and a significant majority in the middle ground who could care less about the music one way or the other. It's a matter of choice, taste, and to a degree, exposure.



_A Young Person's Guide to Classical Music_ is not an attempt to make new converts to classical music, “he says, “It’s certainly not an attempt to duplicate, let alone match, the kind of passion, expertise, and professionalism other classical music conductors have spurred young persons to listen to and even love classical music back in their day. In any case, there's not an aspect of classical music that hasn't been written about, in more instances than not repeatedly. The books on classical music fill dozens of public and private library and bookstore shelves.



He makes no pretense that _A Young Person's Guide to Classical Music_ is comprehensive, and touches all bases on classical music. His goal was a fast-paced, highly readable basic primer for those young persons interested in classical music or who want to develop an interest in it. It's a layperson's guide to standard musical terms, instruments, selected composers, influential works, and the styles, forms, and structures common to classical music. I present a capsulized history of the different periods in classical music's evolution.



Hutchinson includes many important compositions from different periods of the music's evolution as recommended listening. He tosses in interesting factoids about the best-known composers and their works. I also squeeze in the section "From the Concert Seat" some interesting and amusing tidbits about the composers, the instruments, and their works.



He ends with thoughts on what can spur interest in more young persons in classical music. Hutchinson’s aim is not to proselytize young people on the music. It's to try to make classical music and its components understandable---for those interested. “

From PRLOG (full quote allowed with link):








New Classical Music Book Unravels Mystery of Classical Music to Young Persons


New Classical Music Book Unravels Mystery of Classical Music to Young Persons. "Classical musical audiences are getting older, and older. If they are not replaced by a new crop of younger listeners that means more empty seats and even less revenue. - PR12914149




www.prlog.org


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Young people will turn to classical music if they are told they are forbidden to listen to it.


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

As a firm believer in early imprinting in the arts, I would recommend a hodge-podge of different approaches to introducing CM and the young to each other. Not in any order: exposing them to film/video soundtracks and suggesting that CM is or can be a place or way to further explore the sort of soundtrack music they really like. I loved as a kid the Richard Rodgers music for _Victory at Sea--_very stirring, and I wanted to hear more of such.

Pointing out that music they may hear in ads or as intro music for TV shows, etc., with examples, may be taken from CM--an example is the intro to Judge Judy episodes where we hear the opening 4 notes of Beethoven's 5th.

Playing for kids in the classroom bits of tone poems or ballet scores and asking them whether they hear in the music a thunderstorm (Beethoven, Grofe) and who did the more convincing job. _Nightride and Sunrise_ suggests itself; also Villa-Lobos BB #2, more Grofe (_On the Trail);_ which Rachmaninoff preludes and Etudes Tableaux sound the most like bells ringing. Hard to go wrong with _The Nutcracker_ or _Peter and the Wolf. _Respighi offers many examples. It will take with those predisposed for whatever reasons to begin to like CM.


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## ClassicalMaestro (Dec 10, 2017)

Add distortion


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

This book will be bought by:
-- A few kids already interested in CM
-- Some adults hoping this would give the answer to getting a new generation to like CM
-- With luck, it may be purchased in bulk for music appreciation classes.

Kids who don't like CM won't read this book, so it won't fix the issue of greying CM listeners and concert-goers. It'll be one of the guides for the few kids who are really starting to enjoy CM already. (And most would probably look on the Internet for CM guides-- quicker and more convenient, especially since they'll be getting CM music from Youtube and streaming services).

That's my two-cents, anyway. _I hope that some people get hooked on CM as adults, even as older adults, in sufficient numbers to make the CM audience's decline plateau or reverse_


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Strange Magic said:


> As a firm believer in early imprinting in the arts, I would recommend a hodge-podge of different approaches to introducing CM and the young to each other. Not in any order: exposing them to film/video soundtracks and suggesting that CM is or can be a place or way to further explore the sort of soundtrack music they really like. I loved as a kid the Richard Rodgers music for _Victory at Sea--_very stirring, and I wanted to hear more of such.
> 
> Pointing out that music they may hear in ads or as intro music for TV shows, etc., with examples, may be taken from CM--an example is the intro to Judge Judy episodes where we hear the opening 4 notes of Beethoven's 5th.
> 
> Playing for kids in the classroom bits of tone poems or ballet scores and asking them whether they hear in the music a thunderstorm (Beethoven, Grofe) and who did the more convincing job. _Nightride and Sunrise_ suggests itself; also Villa-Lobos BB #2, more Grofe (_On the Trail);_ which Rachmaninoff preludes and Etudes Tableaux sound the most like bells ringing. Hard to go wrong with _The Nutcracker_ or _Peter and the Wolf. _Respighi offers many examples. It will take with those predisposed for whatever reasons to begin to like CM.


One of the big problems is, to me, is that kids are already imprinting on the repetitive, rhythmic, three minute pop song complete with music video (because the song alone is perceived to lack the substance to entertain listeners). Also consider that kids have short attention spans that inhibit enjoyment of many Certified Masterpieces of CM.

By the time their attention spans get long enough to take in a four movement Romantic symphony, their brains have already been wired to appreciate songs pretty much exclusively.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

ORigel said:


> One of the big problems is, to me, is that kids are already imprinting on the repetitive, rhythmic, three minute pop song complete with music video (because the song alone is perceived to lack the substance to entertain listeners). Also consider that kids have short attention spans that inhibit enjoyment of many Certified Masterpieces of CM.
> 
> By the time their attention spans get long enough to take in a four movement Romantic symphony, their brains have already been wired to appreciate songs pretty much exclusively.


I am an example of one. I grew up in a household where the day's pop music, Tin Pan Alley music, CM, Broadswy musicals, all were heard constantly. Get kids young enough and they are still open to all musical stimuli and will let CM be part of the mix. Short pieces or excerpts first, like bits of _Peer Gynt, _or _Lt. Kije, _or of Respighi. Over the years, the interest will (maybe) grow and the tolerance for longer works will also grow.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Strange Magic said:


> As a firm believer in early imprinting in the arts, I would recommend a hodge-podge of different approaches to introducing CM and the young to each other. Not in any order: exposing them to film/video soundtracks and suggesting that CM is or can be a place or way to further explore the sort of soundtrack music they really like. I loved as a kid the Richard Rodgers music for _Victory at Sea--_very stirring, and I wanted to hear more of such.
> 
> Pointing out that music they may hear in ads or as intro music for TV shows, etc., with examples, may be taken from CM--an example is the intro to Judge Judy episodes where we hear the opening 4 notes of Beethoven's 5th.
> 
> Playing for kids in the classroom bits of tone poems or ballet scores and asking them whether they hear in the music a thunderstorm (Beethoven, Grofe) and who did the more convincing job. _Nightride and Sunrise_ suggests itself; also Villa-Lobos BB #2, more Grofe (_On the Trail);_ which Rachmaninoff preludes and Etudes Tableaux sound the most like bells ringing. Hard to go wrong with _The Nutcracker_ or _Peter and the Wolf. _Respighi offers many examples. It will take with those predisposed for whatever reasons to begin to like CM.


In short, my issue with these methods is that they are already common wisdom, and have been tried before. They are ineffective. Did playing stormy compositions in music class make a lot of young converts? No. Did the early 2000s era preschool cartoon Little Einsteins get my generation hooked on Mozart? Don't think so. Hmmm...maybe it influenced me to start listening to CM a few years later, but I am an outlier.

I don't think there is a solution to reversing the decline of CM audiences. All the above methods can do is create a slightly-higher proportion of CM listeners among the youth.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Strange Magic said:


> I am an example of one. I grew up in a household where the day's pop music, Tin Pan Alley music, CM, Broadswy musicals, all were heard constantly. Get kids young enough and they are still open to all musical stimuli and will let CM be part of the mix. Short pieces or excerpts first, like bits of _Peer Gynt, _or _Lt. Kije, _or of Respighi. Over the years, the interest will (maybe) grow and the tolerance for longer works will also grow.


I'm not saying that exposing children to CM never works. I'm saying that it doesn't work for most children. You and me are outliers, and I gravitated to CM over time from the meagre exposure every child in America gets.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

People respond to the arts if they have a frame of reference. When I was young, everyone knew about Van Gogh's Starry Night because of Don McClean's song about it. And I had never heard of Also Sprach Zarathustra until it showed up in the 2001 movie. 

My feeling is, everyone likes classical music; they just don't know it yet. 

One thing I have noticed is, rock music isn't as popular among young people as it used to be. They lean more toward rap and hip-hop. Maybe this writer's next book will be about getting young people to listen to Journey and Toto.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

*"How to Make Classical Music Appealing to Young People"*

Who says that classical music isn't already appealing to young people? The question may depend on what you consider to be "classical music"? You say that you can't "dance" to classical music but little children have been dancing spontaneously to the "Nutcracker" probably since it's premier. Moreover, did you ever see Leonard Bernstein jitterbug his way through conducting the orchestra? Go to Youtube and see how Sergiu Celibidace conducts Enesco's _Romanian Rhapsody #1_ with lots of booty-shaking! Then try to tell me that you can't dance to classical music. Everyone likes at least some "light" classical music, the Strauss family waltzes, the _1812 Overture_, _Bolero_, the _Ride of the Valkyries_, etc; and almost everyone who likes those numbers does there own little dance as they grab for the nearest pencil conducting their own imaginary orchestra in their minds. I've done that lots of times when I get carried away with the music and I imagine that many of you have too. I've gotten so caught up in the majesty of the symphonies by Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, and Mahler that I've missed my exit driving on the highway. 

The fact is that young people today are being more exposed to classical music and other genres than ever before. Because of Youtube and the internet young people are no longer limited to the music that just a few radio stations, TV networks, and music corporations can control. Moreover, the technology has made it so that listening to music is no longer a communal experience. Gone are the days when a group of teenage girls would take the latest Beatles record or Michael Jackson record and listen to it together on one of those portable turn tables. So now that every teenager has their own private playlist that they plug into their own ears, there is no longer a "generation gap" no longer have camps armed against one another; i.e. "Disco vs. Rock". In this sense I'd guess that teens and young adults are more receptive to classical music than ever before, since the peer pressure involving what music you like has become practically non-existent. Case in point, back in the 1980s, Boomers and GenX considered Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin to be "square"; music that Grandpa and Grandma should like; and now everyone young and old, including the Boomers and Gen X, are saying how Sinatra and Dean Martin are the kings of "cool". The new technology has eliminated this kind of generational tension in regards to music. 

But the problem is that technology as always is a double-edged sword. You have to give to get. So I think that while the technology had broken down many barriers in terms of young people and the population at large to become exposed to classical music as something that is beautiful, that same technology prevents people from going deeper into classical music. You take a composer such as Brahms whose symphonies don't grab you right away with a catchy melody, and whose layers of thickness appear to be a massive wall of sound until you listen to it several times and then hear the warmth that lies beneath all these layers of fine German craftsmanship; that takes patience and some work. The same process may apply to Bach's _St. Matthew Passion_, and certainly to composers such as Bartok and Schoenberg who, in my case, took me years, even decades, to "get". With teens and grown-ups on their phones every waking minute the attention span that is learned through high speed technology just isn't conducive to delving that far into the classical music experience. So now, even on classical radio I'm noticing that they are careful not to push the attention span very far as they limit things to soothing brunch/Baroque, Tchaikovsky's _Violin Concerto, _light classics, and Pops music; and every once in a while during evening hours they'll play a complete symphony by Brahms or even program a new work by a _living_ composer that might just _challenge_ the audience to have some patience and work a bit, and just to make it look good. 

As for concert attendance, here again electronic media is the double-edged sword. While the age of COVID made social distancing something new and very different for us older ones to adjust to; young people were _already_ social distancing themselves, communicating and interacting with their world through social media and YouTube. In this sense many teens and young adults are fine enjoying classical music on the computer and not the concert hall.

The OP talks about dwindling classical music record sales and concert attendance and this begs the question: Is classical music really dying or is it just the classical music _industry_ that is dying? Though a few young people have caught on the fad of purchasing vinyl, they don't purchase CDs, and given how they've grown up in a virtual world they may see the need to attend a concert. So even we have a teen or young adult who loves classical music to the extent that they are sincere about placing the time and the work into delving further, why should they spend money on a concert when they can have access to it anytime they want for free and without leaving home?


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Manxfeeder said:


> People respond to the arts if they have a frame of reference. When I was young, everyone knew about Van Gogh's Starry Night because of Don McClean's song about it. And I had never heard of Also Sprach Zarathustra until it showed up in the 2001 movie.
> 
> My feeling is, everyone likes classical music; they just don't know it yet.
> 
> One thing I have noticed is, rock music isn't as popular among young people as it used to be. They lean more toward rap and hip-hop. Maybe this writer's next book will be about getting young people to listen to Journey and Toto.


Hmmm...guess which generations listen to rock music? Boomers and Gen X (now parents and grandparents).


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

All of these comments are interesting and there's a lot to think about. Even in the past, how many younger people gravitated to classical? Think of the 1000s of kids who attended or watched Leonard Bernstein's Young People's Concerts. What effect, if any, did it have? When I was in school they would pipe in Deems Taylor and his music appreciation lecture over the PA system. Did it work? How few of us took to classical because of that? I'm always disappointed with our school orchestra programs: despite some amazing playing by youngsters, it doesn't seem to have a life long effect of turning them to classical. What caught my ear were Saturday morning cartoons (Warner Bros. especially) and Universal horror movies. Those are long gone. So about the best way to catch young people now is through video games. There are serious and fine composers writing for gaming, but whether it will translate into live concert attendance or worthwhile listening is still an open question. One thing is for sure: orchestras large and small must stop being Museums of Sound, quit playing the same old stuff over and over and play more appealing music. Go look at the Philadelphia Orchestra schedule for 2022/23; they're moving in the right direction, I think.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> Playing for kids in the classroom bits of tone poems or ballet scores and asking them whether they hear in the music a thunderstorm (Beethoven, Grofe) and who did the more convincing job. _Nightride and Sunrise_ suggests itself; also Villa-Lobos BB #2, more Grofe (_On the Trail);_ which Rachmaninoff preludes and Etudes Tableaux sound the most like bells ringing. Hard to go wrong with _The Nutcracker_ or _Peter and the Wolf. _Respighi offers many examples. It will take with those predisposed for whatever reasons to begin to like CM.


As a teacher, I've been doing this for years, introducing classical music heavily into my music lessons. However, there's little interest in classical pieces amongst children these days. The kids don't dislike it (far from it) but they seem to like the throwaway nature of autotuned pop pap more readily. It may be formulaic crud but it's what they seem to get hooked on and desire more readily. Obviously some will branch out and make their way to CM eventually but it's getting harder and harder to convince kids that CM is valid and not music for dinosaurs, these days.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Merl said:


> As a teacher, I've been doing this for years, introducing classical music heavily into my music lessons. However, there's little interest in classical pieces amongst children these days. The kids don't dislike it (far from it) but they seem to like the throwaway nature of autotuned pop pap more readily. It may be formulaic crud but it's what they seem to get hooked on and desire more readily. Obviously some will branch out and make their way to CM eventually but it's getting harder and harder to convince kids that CM is valid and not music for dinosaurs, these days.


I applaud your teaching efforts. A question is how old are the students that you are interacting with. Age is key here, I think. I am talking the earlier the better before hormones and peer pressure kick in full time.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> All of these comments are interesting and there's a lot to think about. Even in the past, how many younger people gravitated to classical? Think of the 1000s of kids who attended or watched Leonard Bernstein's Young People's Concerts. What effect, if any, did it have? When I was in school they would pipe in Deems Taylor and his music appreciation lecture over the PA system. Did it work? How few of us took to classical because of that? I'm always disappointed with our school orchestra programs: despite some amazing playing by youngsters, it doesn't seem to have a life long effect of turning them to classical. What caught my ear were Saturday morning cartoons (Warner Bros. especially) and Universal horror movies. Those are long gone. So about the best way to catch young people now is through video games. There are serious and fine composers writing for gaming, but whether it will translate into live concert attendance or worthwhile listening is still an open question. One thing is for sure: orchestras large and small must stop being Museums of Sound, quit playing the same old stuff over and over and play more appealing music. Go look at the Philadelphia Orchestra schedule for 2022/23; they're moving in the right direction, I think.


The warhorses are warhorses for a reason-- they are appealing. In particular, they're safe bets for the demographic that goes to CM concerts (middle-aged and older people).

To grow its audience, orchestras would have to keep its main audience happy while attracting new concert-goers. If they totally switch gears, they could lose their reliable customers while not making up for it in new enthusiasts.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

It helps to participate in some form of classical music in order to make it a lifelong interest. Many people start by playing an instrument or singing in church or school. That's where I started. My parents liked music and my mom and sister played piano bit I never had exposure to classical music until I sang choruses from Handel's Messiah in high school. I liked popular music but aged out of its limitations and looked for something more in college. Classical music became a lifelong passion without ever having read a book or seen a concert. I did lots of both in the past half-century -- all because I sang in school..


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Strange Magic said:


> I applaud your teaching efforts. A question is how old are the students that you are interacting with. Age is key here, I think. I am talking the earlier the better before hormones and peer pressure kick in full time.


Do kids, in general, develop their musical tastes really early? Is what their parents listen to at home the music that they listen to when they're 30? Does that music "plant seeds" so they get into it when they're middle-aged (not just admire it-- regularly listen to it)?

If not, that route will be mostly ineffective, too.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> All of these comments are interesting and there's a lot to think about. Even in the past, how many younger people gravitated to classical? Think of the 1000s of kids who attended or watched Leonard Bernstein's Young People's Concerts. What effect, if any, did it have? When I was in school they would pipe in Deems Taylor and his music appreciation lecture over the PA system. Did it work? How few of us took to classical because of that? I'm always disappointed with our school orchestra programs: despite some amazing playing by youngsters, it doesn't seem to have a life long effect of turning them to classical. What caught my ear were Saturday morning cartoons (Warner Bros. especially) and Universal horror movies. Those are long gone. So about the best way to catch young people now is through video games. There are serious and fine composers writing for gaming, but whether it will translate into live concert attendance or worthwhile listening is still an open question. One thing is for sure: orchestras large and small must stop being Museums of Sound, quit playing the same old stuff over and over and play more appealing music. Go look at the Philadelphia Orchestra schedule for 2022/23; they're moving in the right direction, I think.


If they have a lower than normal amount of ticket sales they should not complain about that


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

ORigel said:


> Do kids, in general, develop their musical tastes really early? Is what their parents listen to at home the music that they listen to when they're 30? Does that music "plant seeds" so they get into it when they're middle-aged (not just admire it-- regularly listen to it)?
> 
> If not, that route will be mostly ineffective, too.


I would appreciate an answer to my question about the age of the kids you teach, I developed my musical tastes quite early, maybe about 4. As far as middle-age enthusiasm developing out of a pre-existing void, some research could come up with some data.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

Classical music will be just fine. I can only comment on my experience and others I have observed, but it seems that people must come to the music - you cannot force it on them. My parents had a decent amount of famous classical works on LP that they occasionally played. We had a piano at home. As a teenager, I played guitar and some piano, and most of my favorite guitarists were influenced by classical music (Blackmore, R. Rhoads, Yngwie). Despite all that, I never really came to classical music until I was ready, which was after a certain amount (and kind) of life experience, as well as listening to music in other genres, and the perfect kind of serendipity at the right time. When I was 20, all these elements conspired to create the perfect atmosphere for me to be receptive to classical music. I was open to it. I came to it enthusiastically and voraciously ate it up. It wasn't much of an intellectual decision; once I heard Rodrigo's Concerto de Aranjuez and Beethoven's 9th, I was all in. It didn't even occur to me that I was becoming a classical music fan. I just liked these pieces and they happened to be sold in the classical music section of the record store. Then I took the deep dive and haven't come up for air in 34 years.

The whole "young people won't like this" fear, which I've been hearing since I started listening to classical music over 3 decades ago, has yet to kill classical music. I don't mean to get political, but it does remind me of American politics. They always say that young people are overwhelmingly Democrat and that the Republican party will die off within one or two generations. Well, it hasn't happened. Why? Because those young people grow up, get jobs, make money, and don't want to pay taxes. They may become more concerned about "family values," law and order, security, military defense, etc as they age. By the way, I'm not saying I believe that one party has a monopoly on these issues, which can be based on false narratives, or that trust in one party is well-founded; politicians are gonna say what they have to say to get elected, and it still kills me how easy it is to manipulate people. Machiavelli. People change.

Anyhow, it's become clear to me that one cannot force others to like classical music. Sure, expose them to it. Let them hear it. Make sure they know it's out there. When the time is right, people who are receptive will come to it. Of course, these are only my observations...however there are thousands of symphony orchestras still kicking around, and classical recordings are still being released in seemingly decent numbers.

*EDIT: *By the way, here are some genres of music which were extremely popular and have arguably died (with some, it's not arguable) in the hundreds of years classical music has thrived: Disco, grunge, punk, rock, swing, big band, gangsta rap, and new wave (early 80's), among others.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

ORigel said:


> The warhorses are warhorses for a reason-- they are appealing. In particular, they're safe bets for the demographic that goes to CM concerts (middle-aged and older people).
> 
> To grow its audience, orchestras would have to keep its main audience happy while attracting new concert-goers. If they totally switch gears, they could lose their reliable customers while not making up for it in new enthusiasts.


The population of white-haired audience members at concerts is thought-provoking. One solution that covers several bases is to program more rich and tonal 20th century music. Some examples: offering Brahms violin concerto and then Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra--people will have heard that Bartok is a well-known name and listen with some openness. Or Rachmaninoff and then Prokofiev's 3rd symphony. Or Beethoven's Emperor followed by Martinu's 1st symphony Mix it up but keep it tonal and with biggish name composers.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> If they have a lower than normal amount of ticket sales they should not complain about that


Just looked. They have Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, and Brahms in their schedule...Holst's The Planets...well-known virtuosos like Hillary Hahn and Emanuel Ax...should be fine.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

ORigel said:


> The warhorses are warhorses for a reason-- they are appealing. In particular, they're safe bets for the demographic that goes to CM concerts (middle-aged and older people).
> 
> To grow its audience, orchestras would have to keep its main audience happy while attracting new concert-goers. If they totally switch gears, they could lose their reliable customers while not making up for it in new enthusiasts.


I agree and that's why I like what Philly is doing. Lot's of familiar warhorses, but also a lot of lesser known and newer music. Summer festivals though have for the most part become nothing more than a replay of the warhorses with little else.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> I agree and that's why I like what Philly is doing. Lot's of familiar warhorses, but also a lot of lesser known and newer music. Summer festivals though have for the most part become nothing more than a replay of the warhorses with little else.


Let's see if the lesser known fill the house.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Thank you for opening a dialogue on this prescient topic and posting the book title. Will review the thread and comment later. 



eohutchinson said:


> Noted classical musicologist Earl Ofari Hutchinson warns against this troubling and controversial concern in the world of classical music in his new book _A Young Person's Guide to Classical Music_ (Middle Passage Press).


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

ORigel said:


> One of the big problems is, to me, is that kids are already imprinting on the repetitive, rhythmic, three minute pop song complete with music video (because the song alone is perceived to lack the substance to entertain listeners). Also consider that kids have short attention spans that inhibit enjoyment of many Certified Masterpieces of CM.
> 
> By the time their attention spans get long enough to take in a four movement Romantic symphony, their brains have already been wired to appreciate songs pretty much exclusively.


Most young people have short attention spans in all things. After being raised on Youtube, and now TikTok, the idea of sitting through a full 30 minute sit-com episode would be a major ask.


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## Judas Priest Fan (Apr 27, 2018)

I don´t think you can force kids to like CM.

I was raised in a strict christian home, and was not allowed to listen to "worldly" music. Since I didnt like the christian music my parents listened to, I didn´t listen to any music at all.
In the christian school I went to, we were exposed to classical music in music class. I can vaguely remember us listening to Peter and the Wolf, even though I can´t remember any of it. I do know that it didn´t leave any lasting impression on me.

At about 15 or 16 I started listening to rock, and then (quality) Metal. I was a Metal Head until about 3 or 4 years ago. Then I stumbled onto Classical Music and have been hooked ever since.
I´m almost 57 now.

I think many people only learn to appreciate CM later in life.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Strange Magic said:


> The population of white-haired audience members at concerts is thought-provoking...


The "audience" is one reason why teens and young adults won't go to a classical musics I indicated before, They aren't going to be financially and geographically inconvenienced when they can enjoy the music through modern technology. The only reason they're going to go to a concert is for the "audience" that will be part of the experience. It's for the purpose of getting wild and crazy. Unless you're going to have Yo-Yo Ma jump into a into a mosh pit, I don't see how you're going to get them to want to hang out with the "wine and cheese" crowd.


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

mbhaub said:


> All of these comments are interesting and there's a lot to think about. Even in the past, how many younger people gravitated to classical? Think of the 1000s of kids who attended or watched Leonard Bernstein's Young People's Concerts. What effect, if any, did it have? When I was in school they would pipe in Deems Taylor and his music appreciation lecture over the PA system. Did it work? How few of us took to classical because of that? I'm always disappointed with our school orchestra programs: despite some amazing playing by youngsters, it doesn't seem to have a life long effect of turning them to classical. What caught my ear were Saturday morning cartoons (Warner Bros. especially) and Universal horror movies. Those are long gone. So about the best way to catch young people now is through video games. There are serious and fine composers writing for gaming, but whether it will translate into live concert attendance or worthwhile listening is still an open question. One thing is for sure: orchestras large and small must stop being Museums of Sound, quit playing the same old stuff over and over and play more appealing music. Go look at the Philadelphia Orchestra schedule for 2022/23; they're moving in the right direction, I think.


I agree. Video game soundtracks were a big factor in getting me interested in classical (big fan of Nobuo Uematsu). Though what I've heard from classical music proper isn't quite what I expected. Classical & video game music are more different than I thought.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Kids should be exposed to classical music in elementary school. The schools can work with local orchestras and musicians and have them come to the schools with their instruments and get kids excited about the music. You don't have to wait until late in life to appreciate music outside of the pop and rock world.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Coach G said:


> The "audience" is one reason why teens and young adults won't go to a classical musics I indicated before, They aren't going to be financially and geographically inconvenienced when they can enjoy the music through modern technology. The only reason they're going to go to a concert is for the "audience" that will be part of the experience. It's for the purpose of getting wild and crazy. Unless you're going to have Yo-Yo Ma jump into a into a mosh pit, I don't see how you're going to get them to want to hang out with the "wine and cheese" crowd.


One path around this are the YouTube concert videos of CM. Essentially free, and with a happy conductor and a good band, lots of entertainment. I am a big fan.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> I applaud your teaching efforts. A question is how old are the students that you are interacting with. Age is key here, I think. I am talking the earlier the better before hormones and peer pressure kick in full time.


I teach primary age kids (5-11). I was playing a class of 5 year olds Beethoven's 4th quartet last week and the 10 year olds got the 2nd movement of Dvorak's American Quartet. Most thought the music was OK but no more.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Merl said:


> I teach primary age kids (5-11). I was playing a class of 5 year olds Beethoven's 4th quartet last week and the 10 year olds got the 2nd movement of Dvorak's American Quartet. Most thought the music was OK but no more.


My opinion (only an opinion) is that you are aiming too high. I think the examples I gave would be more eagerly received.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Strange Magic said:


> My opinion (only an opinion) is that you are aiming too high. I think the examples I gave would be more eagerly received.


I agree on Beethoven's Fourth Quartet for five year olds being possibly a bit too high (they are five, after all)

However, the slow movement of the American Quartet should be accessible to ten year olds.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

As the father of two boys, I find "pressing play" to be a good strategy.


I'm being serious, but if one wants more elaboration, I think being very catholic in one's approach to orchestral music is key. Stuff like John Williams, Howard Shore, and the like are great gateways. Appealing "war horses" are great, too. My boys were positively over the moon about "A Night on Bald Mountain" the other night. They were acting out an imaginary "scene" of their own creation (something about dueling with Count Dracula in his mountain fortress).


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

My grandparents have always loved cm but my parents haven’t really picked it up. When I was about 7 my only cm listening experience was my grandparents putting on Haydn symphony 83 in the car and me and my little sister really liked it but I didn’t actually delve any further while I did listen to pop and rap for a very long time after that. I think it began when I joined an orchestra when I was about 10 and I heard some popular tunes and I really liked the music but it took me about 7 years to actually really get interested and read about it go to concerts and listen to more than single movements of popular works


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

This feels like to some extent an Americentric problem. Classical music seems to be doing fine in its old homeland of Europe, and is immensely popular (more popular than ever) with kids in East Asia. So you guys should probably be asking what are they doing right in China?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

ORigel said:


> I agree on Beethoven's Fourth Quartet for five year olds being possibly a bit too high (they are five, after all)
> 
> However, the slow movement of the American Quartet should be accessible to ten year olds.


Lol, I'm not playing a whole movement or anything just a short section. I play a different piece of music every week for a starter (can be any genre - rock, funk, soul, classical, etc). I play a 2 minute section and the children 'appraise' it (What do you like about it, how does it make you feel, is the tempo slow, medium or fast, what instruments can you hear, etc). It sounds very formal but it's far from it and the children love hearing the different styles. They have to listen and comment on the genre, pulse, tempo, age, dynamics, etc. We are not discussing counterpoint! Teaching children the correct vocab is one aim and instilling in children the need to listen and appreciate other styles whether they like them or not. The kids never feel overwhelmed by the music and even the 5 year olds can happily tell you about the music they're listening to, using far better vocab (it was rubbish at the start of the school year). How many 5 year old working class kids can tell you what a melody, rhythm, pulse, verse, chorus, dynamics are? Most of the ones I teach!


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Either I am a rarity, as someone who, as a kid, liked CM enough for it to become an interest as an adult (despite being raised in a pop mad house)...in which case, there will only ever be a minimal number of children who will enjoy it, so chill.

Or, I'm not a rarity, and there are thousands of children out there who will become the CM loving adults of tomorrow anyway. In which case, chill.


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

Gallus said:


> what are they doing right in China?


They are in many ways culturally where America was during the Gilded Age / ca. 1914. A growing and aspiring middle class. Their interest in classical music will fade too.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Merl said:


> Lol, I'm not playing a whole movement or anything just a short section. I play a different piece of music every week for a starter (can be any genre - rock, funk, soul, classical, etc). I play a 2 minute section and the children 'appraise' it (What do you like about it, how does it make you feel, is the tempo slow, medium or fast, what instruments can you hear, etc). It sounds very formal but it's far from it and the children love hearing the different styles. They have to listen and comment on the genre, pulse, tempo, age, dynamics, etc. We are not discussing counterpoint! Teaching children the correct vocab is one aim and instilling in children the need to listen and appreciate other styles whether they like them or not. The kids never feel overwhelmed by the music and even the 5 year olds can happily tell you about the music they're listening to, using far better vocab (it was rubbish at the start of the school year). How many 5 year old working class kids can tell you what a melody, rhythm, pulse, verse, chorus, dynamics are? Most of the ones I teach!


Still, most newbies to CM enjoy orchestral music over chamber music.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I remember my father - he was a teacher of English Literature - being horrified that the school I was at when I was 9 was trying to teach us Shakespeare. He felt it would put us off for life and forewarned in this way I was really wowed with Shakespeare when I was 15 or so. He was all for boys of 9 reading Treasure Island (a book I still love). There are probably musical equivalents to all this. Certainly, I got into classical music early because I wanted to and I wanted to because it was all around me. Mozart came first. 

But what of children who grow up in houses with no or few books and no classical music? How are they going to get access or guidance? Much could be done in schools but too many schools are environments that alienate kids and make them feel they are "on the other side" to their teachers. I doubt such schools could do anything with music even if they had the money to include it in their curriculum.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

ORigel said:


> Still, most newbies to CM enjoy orchestral music over chamber music.


I wonder if that is true. My daughter hated music that had even the smallest hint of bombast and naturally gravitated towards chamber music (Debussy, Ravel and then Brahms) before getting any taste for orchestral music. She is 25 now but still avoids symphonies. The name alone is enough to tell her that the music is not for her.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

Young people like music with high energy.

When I was in elementary school they took us to a concert of J.S. Bach. Bach was the exclusive composer that we studied in school.
Although some people think that Bach is the greatest, his music is not exactly the kind of music to introduce young people to classical music, because this enforces the stereotype that classical music is slow and soft.
Other composers are more suited for this.

However, to push people in general towards classical music would be a responsibility of the music industry (including radios), but we all know that the music industry hammers with things like "Gangnam Style".
The film and videogame industry does a better work with music, but it seems that this is not enough to contrast the music industry.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> I wonder if that is true. My daughter hated music that had even the smallest hint of bombast and naturally gravitated towards chamber music (Debussy, Ravel and then Brahms) before getting any taste for orchestral music. She is 25 now but still avoids symphonies. The name alone is enough to tell her that the music is not for her.


Your daughter is likely an outlier. Of course there are exceptions to the general rule.

There are only a few chamber music warhorses, and that's because newbies and the "Classic FM" type listeners do not like chamber music for the most part. (Some chamber music is well-known, because a substantial minority of CM listeners listen to chamber music, but even then the standard reportoire for chamber is smaller than it is for orchestral works.)


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

HansZimmer said:


> Young people like music with high energy.
> 
> When I was in elementary school they took us to a concert of J.S. Bach. Bach was the exclusive composer that we studied in school.
> Although some people think that Bach is the greatest, his music is not exactly the kind of music to introduce young people to classical music, because this enforces the stereotype that classical music is slow and soft.
> ...


As a child, I liked some of the tracks on a "J.S. Bach: Adagios" compilation CD.. There was a flute and harpsichord sonata movement that sounded like the music on an Eric Carle VHS (maybe...I don't remember the music on the VHS anymore).


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> He was all for boys of 9 reading Treasure Island (a book I still love). There are probably musical equivalents to all this.


One problem today is that 9 year olds don't get musical analogues to Treasure Island (or Famous Five or Harry Potter) but they often get popular music that emerged from and became a thoroughly commercialized teenage subculture focussed on sex, love, coming of age, fandom, gangs, violence and other things that are rather toxic for pre-teens (and should probably be somewhat moderated for most young teenagers as well).



> But what of children who grow up in houses with no or few books and no classical music? How are they going to get access or guidance?


That's an old problem that could to some extent be amended by schools, public libraries etc., especially in an age like the early-mid 20th century when a paternalist state and "grassroots" organizations (like unions) often agreed that "high culture" should be made available to everyone. But since commercialized pop culture took over, about the only way to remove the strong influence of family background seems a mix between Sparta and Eastern bloc "childcare", i.e. all children are from a very young age removed from their families for most of the day and educated/indoctrinated by the state. This would be one of the very few things I'd detest even more than the current "soft" influence of popular culture and de facto stratification/class society, despite high culture being more easily available than ever before. So there is little to be done about it. Exposure to anything beyond commercial popular culture will be largely dependent on family background.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

starthrower said:


> Kids should be exposed to classical music in elementary school. The schools can work with local orchestras and musicians and have them come to the schools with their instruments and get kids excited about the music. You don't have to wait until late in life to appreciate music outside of the pop and rock world.


When I was in grade school, we had this thing called "music class." That's where I learned to read music.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Has anyone here mentioned Disney's classic _Fantasia?_ Or did I miss it. A couple of viewings of Fantasia in schools (we used to have school-wide films in my schools in my youth) would or could provide the trigger for a lifelong interest in CM, even if the opportunities for immediate exercise of the interest were not available. I shall never forget the dinosaurs struggling across the landscape to the sound of the Rite of Spring, or the flying horses of the Pastorale, and Mickey with the brooms and pails. Schools too strapped for cash or personnel could make a yearly viewing of Fantasia a fixture of their calendar.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

However, I want to answer the question with an other question "Why sould we?".

Popular music, in itself, doesn't damage society. The real problem is that the music industry offers very bad role model, who teach drugs, violence, "women possession", toxic beahaviours and attitudes of different kinds, and so on .
I'm not saying that we need censorship, but just a bit more of self-responsibility in the music industry.

You could like or not like pop artists like Whitney Houston or Elton John, but they don't write music with such contents, so until we speak about popular artists like them is only a matter of tastes.

Furthermore, I would like to see more meritocracy and seriousness. Playback concerts are a scam and I don't know why many people who are not really able to sing are selected by the music industry. What triggers me is that the music industry teaches that you can become a famous performer without solid technical skills, so there is no need to study and to train.
Withney Houston is an example of someone who has technical skills.

To conclude, what I want to say is that I would like to see more technically skilled singers and better role models with more "philosofical" lyrics inside the popular music industry. The rest is a matter of tastes and I don't think that there is the need to convert everyone to classical music if the popular music becomes more serious.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

HansZimmer said:


> Young people like music with high energy.
> 
> When I was in elementary school they took us to a concert of J.S. Bach. Bach was the exclusive composer that we studied in school.
> Although some people think that Bach is the greatest, his music is not exactly the kind of music to introduce young people to classical music, because this enforces the stereotype that classical music is slow and soft.
> Other composers are more suited for this.


If you consider Bach's music slow and soft, you don't know your Bach.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

progmatist said:


> When I was in grade school, we had this thing called "music class." That's where I learned to read music.


Yes, we did too back in the early 70s. But one day the percussion section from the local symphony came to our school with their timpani drums and other instruments which excited me as a nine year old kid. This was much more exciting than the nerdy teacher we had for music class.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

*Please note:  this thread is NOT in the Politics and Religion in Classical Music sub-forum, so NO discussion of politics, even when related to classical music.
Several posts have been deleted.*


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

My son Teddy is at home today recovering from COVID. He says "Just play the good classical music. Also, just play it while they're there. They'll get used to it."


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Popular music is highly "technical" though not in the sense that a virtuoso is technical. The objections many have to it, I always thought were less from amateur tendencies and more from it being a highly finished commercial product. 

The idea of de emphasizing technical skill occurred in certain ways from folk, rock and punk scenes but not particularly pop.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

The first post of this thread is nothing more than a copy and paste of an actual press release - The OP and the author of the book are one and the same -









New Classical Music Book Unravels Mystery of Classical Music to Young Persons


New Classical Music Book Unravels Mystery of Classical Music to Young Persons. "Classical musical audiences are getting older, and older. If they are not replaced by a new crop of younger listeners that means more empty seats and even less revenue. - PR12914149




www.prlog.org





He was a member since May 10, 2015 - 7 years ago - and has posted 4 times - the last post was October 11, 2016 - almost 6 years ago - and of the 4 posts, 3 of them are essentially advertisements for the books that he has written.

The book itself is a vanity press publication - Not a legitimate publisher's release - Lots of white space, large print, drawings, photos, album covers - No real insights - non-existent analysis - on how to attract a younger audience -Just a series of definitions taken directly from dictionaries and quotations from third-party sources cobbled together without any real explanations as to why you need to hear what you're listening to.

This is a subject worthy of debate - I just don't care for the way that it was presented - He writes a book - advertises it within the forum - and then disappears for years until he's written yet another new book - and then creates yet another thread only to disappear once again.

4 posts in 7 years and 3 of them are for books that he's written - Disingenuous at best...


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

ORigel said:


> Your daughter is likely an outlier. Of course there are exceptions to the general rule.
> 
> There are only a few chamber music warhorses, and that's because newbies and the "Classic FM" type listeners do not like chamber music for the most part. (Some chamber music is well-known, because a substantial minority of CM listeners listen to chamber music, but even then the standard reportoire for chamber is smaller than it is for orchestral works.)


Perhaps she is an outlier but she didn't get her taste from me. I had always assumed that the first step would be orchestral and it never took with her. The music that worked for her came from recommendations from her peers on Reddit.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

Art Rock said:


> *so NO discussion of politics, even when related to classical music.*


Politics is never related to classical music. Politics is about personal freedom, civil rights, equality and economy. 

If you think that the progress in this fields of last decades are positive doesn't mean that you think that modern art is better than classical art. 

And BTW classical music is not elitist, because it used to be popular some decades ago.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

HansZimmer said:


> Politics is never related to classical music. Politics is about personal freedom, civil rights, equality and economy.
> 
> If you think that the progress in this fields of last decades are positive doesn't mean that you think that modern art is better than classical art.
> 
> And BTW classical music is not elitist, because it used to be popular some decades ago.


I believe this was about posts which are now deleted which explicitly veered into unrelated political directions.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Shaughnessy said:


> The OP and the author of the book are one and the same -





Shaughnessy said:


> This is a subject worthy of debate - I just don't like the way that it was done -


Quite agree with you.

Does the author mention in the book any data (ideally trended) about concert attendance, sales of classical recordings, including streaming, etc.? Without that information - it's hard to know whether the listenership has changed. The proportion of CM listeners has I think always been small.

From my perspective, I was exposed to CM as a young child and loved it from the start. Family members - raised in the same house - had the opposite response to it. I did find that as a kid who liked CM and disliked contemporary music - I was an outlier and chided for my interest in it (maybe just one of the reasons!). There may be a stigma associated with CM - even amongst adults.

For the US - 2018 - you can see jazz and classical have the same % of gross sales. Maybe it only 'seems' that the CM listenership is diminishing.


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## Rosalind Ellicott (May 21, 2020)

A couple of thoughts: does anyone know if there are figures available for the demographics of classical listeners, not just concert goers? 
Young people don't go out as much as they used to in general so I suspect that other forms of music aren't pulling in the numbers they used to for live performances either.
Attempts at encouraging the young by dumbing-down are doomed to failure. Better to present classical as something that is only for those hip enough to be in the know; self-consciously elitist.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Links to a 52-page report on attendance at CM concerts and music sales over a period of years. Although it is US data only, albeit somewhat dated, it is a treasure trove of information and graphics. I'd like to see more current data.

USA Audience Demographic Research Review December 10, 2009

These folks commissioned the study.




__





Homepage - americanorchestras.org


Learn how the League leads, supports, and champions America's orchestras and the vitality of the music they perform.




americanorchestras.org


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Shaughnessy said:


> The first post of this thread is nothing more than a copy and paste of an actual press release - The OP and the author of the book are one and the same -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I originally posted in this self-promotion thread because I wanted to attack the ridiculous marketing for this book in a polite way. Well, now, I'll say what I really think.

It's pretty clear to me that Hutchinson's intended audience is not children, but adults like us who might be deceived into buying this book in the hopes that it'll get kids to love CM. Because kids don't read this forum*, and we won't enjoy a book written for children (even if a few of us are newbies who would benefit from an introductory text to CM).
*And if a couple do lurk on these threads, they already love CM

It's dishonest marketing, a scam. However, I enjoyed the discussion we had on the subject, that Hutchinson didn't bother to participate in.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

fbjim said:


> I believe this was about posts which are now deleted which explicitly veered into unrelated political directions.


It was a poltical analogy to the CM situation, I think. The gist: some people will get into classical music in middle age.

This idea is testable, if we can find actual demographics of CM listeners to see if, say, the median age of listeners is NOT increasing over time, _even_ if it's been hovering around (say) age 70.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Caroline said:


> Links to a 52-page report on attendance at CM concerts and music sales over a period of years. Although it is US data only, albeit somewhat dated, it is a treasure trove of information and graphics. I'd like to see more current data.
> 
> USA Audience Demographic Research Review December 10, 2009
> 
> ...


The takeaway is that the decline and aging trends in CM audiences is real.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Here's an interesting story which may be entirely anecdotal.

I've actually noticed more of my younger "colleagues" than I've thought with at least some experience with classical music. Many of them aren't avid listeners, some are, but a lot can name a few pieces they like. In most cases, these are pieces beyond the popular repitoire. 

I don't think any of them have ever paid, or expressed interest in going to see, a classical music concert.

Is this symptomatic of a problem, or just about what we'd expect of people who may like music but don't consider themselves avid listeners of it?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Rosalind Ellicott said:


> A couple of thoughts: does anyone know if there are figures available for the demographics of classical listeners, not just concert goers?
> Young people don't go out as much as they used to in general so I suspect that other forms of music aren't pulling in the numbers they used to for live performances either.
> Attempts at encouraging the young by dumbing-down are doomed to failure. Better to present classical as something that is only for those hip enough to be in the know; self-consciously elitist.


In my opinion, this is an invitation for CM to commit suicide or to become a cult only for the cognoscenti. Some clearly want this.


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

Considering the recent inflection of the thread, I will allow myself to restore the idea of my first comment:

A book with a cover design straight from the 1960s, titled "...to Young Persons", and penned by a gentleman refered to as Earl MiddleName Hutchinson sounds uncool as sh...
anghai in the summer.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

ORigel said:


> The takeaway is that the decline and aging trends in CM audiences is real.


Participation rates (i.e., _concerts_ _only_) have consistently declined between 1982 and 2008 and attendance at concerts has not kept pace with the increase in population according to the research findings - note the chart below.

Tons more interesting information here about the 'popularity' of CM (2019) in the US, Germany, and China. For both the US (1%) and Germany (2.1%), CM is at or near the bottom of listenership. However - in China - it is 6th out of 10.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

eohutchinson said:


> He ends with thoughts on what can spur interest in more young persons in classical music.


Expose them to it at a young age, regularly, and make it an enjoyable experience they will want to relive. When the subject of music comes up - I offer CM. Takers get playlists of excerpts from light works - about 3' in length.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

TwosetViolin is a hugely successful youtube channel with nearly 4 million subscribers run by two young Australian-Taiwanese classical violinists, Brett Yang and Eddy Chen, that mostly targets the 12 to 21 demographic but is popular with a general audience, including many who came to it with no prior interest in classical music. Hilary Hahn, Ray Chen and other classical stars are frequent guests (Chen is also originally from Australia). They have made two successful live world tours and will soon embark on a third, long delayed by the pandemic. They have a large fan base in Europe and the Americas as well as, of course, Asia and Australia. 

I mention them here because they have all but singlehandedly demolished the myth that classical music cannot be sold to young people, repeated by some in this thread. Though video games and other current youth pop culture phenomena are prevailing themes in their videos, they go to great pains to be respectful of the western classical music tradition that always is their main topic, and mercilessly satirize any pop culture examples of disrespect, dismissing them with one of their running comments: "Sacrilegious!" Great, and funny, stuff.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

fluteman said:


> TwosetViolin is a hugely successful youtube channel with nearly 4 million subscribers run by two young Australian-Taiwanese classical violinists, Brett Yang and Eddy Chen, that mostly targets the 12 to 21 demographic but is popular with a general audience, including many who came to it with no prior interest in classical music. Hilary Hahn, Ray Chen and other classical stars are frequent guests (Chen is also originally from Australia). They have made two successful live world tours and will soon embark on a third, long delayed by the pandemic. They have a large fan base in Europe and the Americas as well as, of course, Asia and Australia.
> 
> I mention them here because they have all but singlehandedly demolished the myth that classical music cannot be sold to young people, repeated by some in this thread. Though video games and other current youth pop culture phenomena are prevailing themes in their videos, they go to great pains to be respectful of the western classical music tradition that always is their main topic, and mercilessly satirize any pop culture examples of disrespect, dismissing them with one of their running comments: "Sacrilegious!" Great, and funny, stuff.


Looks like that route works better than the tired old methods proposed in this thread.

I was thinking that David Hurwitz's channel could appeal to teenagers and young adults who already love classical music, with his really good popularization of certain works, his recommendations (= viewers with disposable income buying CDs), and, especially, his trolling (e.g. Tinnitus Classics series).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Its obvious that the book looks at things from a USA perspective. The classical industry there has been exposed in recent decades, particularly in the 2008 Global Financial Crisis and now with Covid 19. I think that part of the issue there is poor financial management, exploitation of tax law (some creative accounting to do with charitable exemptions) and union involvement.

I also think that there are probably more urgent problems to deal with in the USA than culture, such as key areas like the economy, education and health.

Apart from that, there are some issues raised that are general problems. I think that the biggest one is access and equity. If a child wants to learn music, there are ongoing costs attached, such as buying instruments and private tuition. With growing prosperity, not only in Western countries, more parents are able to afford for their children to learn music. At the same time, the majority of children are still denied this privilege. Venezuela started to tackle this about 50 years ago with its El Sistema method.

I doubt whether there's any use in getting children in the mass education system to listen to classical music if they can't play it. Its better if it becomes part of their lives in some way. Teaching skills of classical playing can't be done easily. Perhaps it simply doesn't fit into the regular curriculum? One on one tutoring has always been the way music is taught best.

The exclusive private schools still have strong music programs, but they are there to translate the values and needs of the rich, which is also why they teach Latin. In contrast, the state system is struggling with getting children ready with skills they really need in life, such as reading, writing and counting.

I'm less concerned about the ability of the classical music scene to survive. With the situation of diminishing subsidies, they've been forced to reach out to the wider public, and attract new audiences. This has been happening for a couple of decades now. Its not the first time that classical music had to adapt to a more austere economic climate, neither will it be the last. That already happened after the two world wars. As always, its a case of nourishing audiences and the creative community, as well as keeping an eye on the budget.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Several people have now referred to the idea that children who like CM are 'outliers'. I made the simple point that if that is the case, it'll most likely be because CM is not attractive enough to the overwhelming majority, and no amount of "education" (or other strategy) will make any difference. Just because I love something enough to want to tell other people about it and get them to like it, doesn't mean other people will be allured by its oh-so-obvious charms.

The question that no one seems to want to address (except in contemptuous terms about children not getting out enough, being brainwashed by pop and spending too much time on devices) is why not? What is it about CM itself that means it's not attractive enough to 95% of the general population?


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

Forster said:


> The question that no one seems to want to address is, (except in contemptuous terms about children not getting out enough, being brainwashed by pop and spending too muich time on devices) why not? What is it about CM itself that means it's not attractive enough to 95% of the general population?


The length is one reason. Another is how the emphasis on instrumental works makes it less relatable to youth experiences.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

--------------------------------


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

HansZimmer said:


> And BTW classical music is not elitist, because it used to be popular some decades ago.


There was a time (roughly the 1920s-70s and especially the 50s and 60s) when the broad appreciation of classical music (and "high culture" in general) was often pushed by educational institutions, broadly supported both by the bourgeois establishment and unions or other groups fighting for better living standard and acess to bourgeois institutions for disadvantaged/lower classes. It was at times also a way to make decent money (think of "Everyman" paperbacks of classical literature, book and music clubs etc.) and, maybe most importantly, it was often one aspect of upward economic/social mobility to develop some interest in "high culture" (even if this was just "best of"/pops classical or operetta etc.). That's why classical music was comparably present in public media between the 1950s and 80s and at least some classical music was rather popular. If there are three TV channels and not many more easily receivable on the Radio and most of them public, one is quite likely to encounter some classical music. 

Almost all of these factors have been weakened or disappeared in the last decades, starting probably already with the disdain many of the late 1960s "counterculture" had for traditional "high culture". This might have affected Classical music particularly because popular music from Folk to Punk was the largest cultural contribution of the "counterculture" and became very sucessfully commercialized within a very short time.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

fluteman said:


> TwosetViolin is a hugely successful youtube channel with nearly 4 million subscribers run by two young Australian-Taiwanese classical violinists, Brett Yang and Eddy Chen, that mostly targets the 12 to 21 demographic but is popular with a general audience, including many who came to it with no prior interest in classical music. Hilary Hahn, Ray Chen and other classical stars are frequent guests (Chen is also originally from Australia). They have made two successful live world tours and will soon embark on a third, long delayed by the pandemic. They have a large fan base in Europe and the Americas as well as, of course, Asia and Australia.
> 
> I mention them here because they have all but singlehandedly demolished the myth that classical music cannot be sold to young people, repeated by some in this thread. Though video games and other current youth pop culture phenomena are prevailing themes in their videos, they go to great pains to be respectful of the western classical music tradition that always is their main topic, and mercilessly satirize any pop culture examples of disrespect, dismissing them with one of their running comments: "Sacrilegious!" Great, and funny, stuff.


I think getting milennials online can be a key to this, and Eric Whitacre's virtual choir - established over ten years ago - is another good example:


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

4chamberedklavier said:


> The length is one reason. Another is how the emphasis on instrumental works makes it less relatable to youth experiences.


"Youth experience" is an euphenism for sex, right? (the main subject of popular songs)


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

ORigel said:


> "Youth experience" is an euphenism for sex, right? (the main subject of popular songs)


Perhaps it may be


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Almost all of these factors have been weakened or disappeared in the last decades, starting probably already with the disdain many of the late 1960s "counterculture" had for traditional "high culture". This might have affected Classical music particularly because popular music from Folk to Punk was the largest cultural contribution of the "counterculture" and became very sucessfully commercialized within a very short time.


Excellent analysis. Particularly in the US since the early 2000s, and which has rapidly accelerated in the past few years, is the phenomenon of 'cancel culture,' and CM is a casualty. People who have an agenda to implement new social norms - have to eliminate the old to make way for the new. One of the ways in which this has been happening for decades is through government schools.

Additionally - why is rap so popular? It has superseded rock and pop. 

One question that people could consider - where is CM growing in listenership - and why?


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

Caroline said:


> Excellent analysis. Particularly in the US since the early 2000s, and which has rapidly accelerated in the past few years, is the phenomenon of 'cancel culture,' and CM is a casualty. People who have an agenda to implement new social norms - have to eliminate the old to make way for the new. One of the ways in which this has been happening for decades is through government schools.
> 
> Additionally - why is rap so popular? It has superseded rock and pop.
> 
> One question that people could consider - where is CM growing in listenership - and why?


Civil rights/personal freedom/equality and classical music are not mutually exclusive. They can (and they MUST) stay together.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

HansZimmer said:


> Civil rights, personal freedom and equality are not mutually exclusive with classical music. They can (and they MUST) stay together.


As soon as this dude typed "Civil rights/personal freedom/equality..." Art Rock's ears perked up and he'll be here to provide a gentle reminder that politics in any way, shape, or form are to be avoided in their entirety within this thread.

So... everyone might want to cool it lest Art's reminder be less than gentle.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Caroline said:


> One question that people could consider - where is CM growing in listenership - and why?


East Asia, and I think someone gave a plausible answer further above. Because China, South Korea etc. are in many ways similar in their socio-economical developmental stage to Western countries in the first half or 2/3rds of the 20th century. 
Additionally, as ~1950 Classical Music was the distinctive music of the upper/middle classes and thus developing a taste for it often accompanied the rise of people from lower/middle classes (that was possible for many people in the post-war era) for East Asia it is the Music of the (still) dominant high culture of the world, thus the rise to world stage of East Asia is accompanied by getting fond of Western classical music.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Caroline said:


> Expose them to it at a young age, regularly, and make it an enjoyable experience they will want to relive. When the subject of music comes up - I offer CM. Takers get playlists of excerpts from light works - about 3' in length.


Children will act and learn in accordance with their long history.
Separate kids into two TRIBES and let them compete in their prepubescent conventions of 'etiquette', the older with the younger, a year or two apart. 
This is akin to what created our Mozart. Once they get the feel of the pieces under their fingers and the cleverness of the logic, some kids will take it and run with it, especially with the vagaries of peer pressure. It's all really luck (timing and attitudes they care about) I guess.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Shaughnessy said:


> As soon as this dude typed "Civil rights, personal freedom and..." Art Rock's ears perked up and he'll be here to provide a gentle reminder that politics in any way, shape, or form are to be avoided in their entirety within this thread.
> 
> So... everyone might want to cool it lest Art's reminder be less than gentle.


All valid remarks and TC is to be an enjoyable, not potentially contentious forum for everyone. Refraining from politics is axiomatic, especially now. However, freedom of expression and thought are inextricably tied. As a matter of history - consider that Beethoven had to deal with censors during the Metternich regime. Imagine if censors decided that some of Beethoven's works were not acceptable.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> As soon as this dude typed "Civil rights, personal freedom and..." Art Rock's ears perked up and he'll be here to provide a gentle reminder that politics in any way, shape, or form are to be avoided in their entirety within this thread.
> 
> So... everyone might want to cool it lest Art's reminder be less than gentle.


"Don't do that again!"
"What'd I do?"
"You know what you did!!"


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Luchesi said:


> Children will act and learn in accordance with their long history.
> Separate kids into two TRIBES and let them compete in their prepubescent conventions of 'etiquette', the older with the younger, a year or two apart.
> This is akin to what created our Mozart. Once they get the feel of the pieces under their fingers and the cleverness of the logic, some kids will take it and run with it, especially with the vagaries of peer pressure. It's all really luck (timing and attitudes they care about) I guess.


I've been doing this from the 70s and I wanted to add one very important point. Generally, girls, at this age 10 or 12, are just naturally better at conceptualizing and then playing clever, instructional pieces than the boys are. And this curiously sparks something in the boys that they just can't get from any other planned situation!


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Some interesting and massive assumptions here about what music children should be introduced to and what they will like. As my degree dissertation proved to me (children's responses to TV), children do not hear and see what adults do. Their listening and assimilation of music and TV is nothing like ours so those saying "you can't play them a section of a Beethoven quartet, it will go over their heads" are frankly talking rubbish. These are the same children who can rave about a piece as complex in contrasts as Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody. The idea that children are not going to listen to a segment of a string quartet because its a string quartet not an orchestral piece is preposterous. If its a good 'choon' they won't be bothered. The kids I teach get subjected to everything I can throw at them (as long as its appropriate - the Sex Pistols' Bodies would be a bit much) . Some things are a hit, some a miss and it's not always genre-based but I would say that jazz and swing do get far more negative comments than other genres. When I played the 2nd movement of Dvorak's American Quartet to the P6 class the positive comments far outweighed the negative (in fact there were very few negatives) and one girl called it "beautiful" whilst another said it was "lovely but it made me want to cry". Another boy said it sounded like "music from a sad part of a war film". I know we all hear different things in CM but children are even more complex in what they like or dislike. Perhaps this is something I might follow up if I ever decide to do a masters degree.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Merl said:


> children do not hear and see what adults do. Their listening and assimilation of music and TV is nothing like ours





Merl said:


> ...children are even more complex in what they like or dislike. Perhaps this is something I might follow up if I ever decide to do a masters degree.


Would love to know more about this. I wonder what part is nature, nurture, and cognitive and emotional development.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Shaughnessy said:


> As soon as this dude typed "Civil rights, personal freedom and..." Art Rock's ears perked up and he'll be here to provide a gentle reminder that politics in any way, shape, or form are to be avoided in their entirety within this thread.
> 
> So... everyone might want to cool it lest Art's reminder be less than gentle.


As soon as Caroline typed "cancel culture", I reached for my Browning.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Merl said:


> Some interesting and massive assumptions here about what music children should be introduced to and what they will like. As my degree dissertation proved to me (children's responses to TV), children do not hear and see what adults do. Their listening and assimilation of music and TV is nothing like ours so those saying "you can't play them a section of a Beethoven quartet, it will go over their heads" are frankly talking rubbish. These are the same children who can rave about a piece as complex in contrasts as Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody. The idea that children are not going to listen to a segment of a string quartet because its a string quartet not an orchestral piece is preposterous. If its a good 'choon' they won't be bothered. The kids I teach get subjected to everything I can throw at them (as long as its appropriate - the Sex Pistols' Bodies would be a bit much) . Some things are a hit, some a miss and it's not always genre-based but I would say that jazz and swing do get far more negative comments than other genres. When I played the 2nd movement of Dvorak's American Quartet to the P6 class the positive comments far outweighed the negative (in fact there were very few negatives) and one girl called it "beautiful" whilst another said it was "lovely but it made me want to cry". Another boy said it sounded like "music from a sad part of a war film". I know we all hear different things in CM but children are even more complex in what they like or dislike. Perhaps this is something I might follow up if I ever decide to do a masters degree.


What do you think the response would be were you to do a "compare/contrast" concept with Copland's "H-o-e-down" using a straightforward orchestral recording vs. Emerson, Lake & Palmer's version?

Have you tried using progressive rock works which incorporate classical elements to see if they would find those versions more accessible than the standard composition itself? After six decades, backbeats may be hardwired within our neural pathways and many a classical listener has used prog as a gateway.

My personal "moment of realization" was hearing the excerpt from Stravinsky's "Firebird Suite" which was used as the opening for the live triple-album "Yessongs" - There was no looking back after that.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Deleted - Yet another double post when using "Preview" - I think this happens when working on the same post on two different windows.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Caroline said:


> Would love to know more about this. I wonder what part is nature, nurture, and cognitive and emotional development.


That's a question that child development professionals have been asking ourselves for years. You certainly can't predict what the children think (but pop/rock 'anthems' with massive hooks in the chorus are always a winner - eg. We Wil Rock You). I was playing the Schubert Rosamunde quartet a while back in P4 and one of the children said "I like this. It's the Marvel tune". When I delved deeper it transpired (according to numerous class members) that it was in the film. When I watched the film on TV I listened out for it and sure enough when Loki descends the stairs at a grand concert hall Rosamunde is indeed playing prominently. Many children commented that they really liked the "tune".


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

starthrower said:


> Yes, we did too back in the early 70s. But one day the percussion section from the local symphony came to our school with their timpani drums and other instruments which excited me as a nine year old kid. This was much more exciting than the nerdy teacher we had for music class.


My 6th grade band teacher was a trained orchestral percussionist. He would often play his vibraphone in the cafeteria during lunch. Kids would yell out "Play the Lone Ranger Theme," wanting him to play the William Tell Overture. He taught guitar, which in grade school in 1976 was pretty dang cool. Band class of course was only for students more serious about music. Music class was for everybody.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I think there is a big difference between whether or not young people will listen to classical music and say "hey, that sounds alright", and whether or not they'll actually be interested in it. It's hard to force hobbies onto kids.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Why do people use the word, force? All you can do is expose kids or people to other music. There nothing militant about it. It's just another aspect of being an educated person.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Education doesn't get butts into concert seats. Passion does.

I was educated in Shakespare growing up. I like Shakespeare. I wouldn't really go to a Shakespeare performance because I don't really feel particularly passionate about doing so.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Forster said:


> Several people have now referred to the idea that children who like CM are 'outliers'. I made the simple point that if that is the case, it'll most likely be because CM is not attractive enough to the overwhelming majority, and no amount of "education" (or other strategy) will make any difference. Just because I love something enough to want to tell other people about it and get them to like it, doesn't mean other people will be allured by its oh-so-obvious charms.
> 
> The question that no one seems to want to address (except in contemptuous terms about children not getting out enough, being brainwashed by pop and spending too much time on devices) is why not? What is it about CM itself that means it's not attractive enough to 95% of the general population?


Most people could learn to like CM, but they now expect immediate payoff from songs.


Caroline said:


> All valid remarks and TC is to be an enjoyable, not potentially contentious forum for everyone. Refraining from politics is axiomatic, especially now. However, freedom of expression and thought are inextricably tied. As a matter of history - consider that Beethoven had to deal with censors during the Metternich regime. Imagine if censors decided that some of Beethoven's works were not acceptable.


That's not a good analogy. The cancelling isn't by governments but by private businesses and individuals. As long as Beethoven finds a publisher, he would have become famous after his death when people came to their senses


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

starthrower said:


> Why do people use the word, force? All you can do is expose kids or people to other music. There nothing militant about it. It's just another aspect of being an educated person.


I don't think kids would want to read a book about music they don't care for. Many don't even like music class.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

ORigel said:


> I don't think kids would want to read a book about music they don't care for. Many don't even like music class.


Who said anything about reading a book? Just play them the music.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

fbjim said:


> Education doesn't get butts into concert seats. Passion does.


You can't develop a passion for something you haven't been exposed to.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Caroline said:


> People who have an agenda to implement new social norms - have to eliminate the old to make way for the new. One of the ways in which this has been happening for decades is through government schools.


I doubt that's impinged on classical. Socialisation has always been a part of education, but I think that government schools have other more pressing concerns. The foremost of these is bullying (including cyber bullying) and violence (since you mention the USA, its the worst there with regular school shootings). Music can and should be part of solving these problems, but to be realistic, those who run and teach at schools already have a lot on their hands.

A related issue is that government schools don't have the advantage of private schools, whose students are either rich or otherwise hand picked from the brightest (e.g. with scholarships).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Forster said:


> I made the simple point that if that is the case, it'll most likely be because CM is not attractive enough to the overwhelming majority, and no amount of "education" (or other strategy) will make any difference.


Education will make a difference. If you listen to Mr. Mackey, who says "Classical music is good for you, m'kay."


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

ORigel said:


> The cancelling isn't by governments but by private businesses and individuals.


Correct - changes to culture (or changes to anything) are made by big businesses and large and organized groups of people.



fbjim said:


> Education doesn't get butts into concert seats. Passion does.


In addition to passion, one needs proximity and ease of travel, to get butts into concert seats. Only a small portion of the population lives near a concert hall. Traveling 40 miles into the city was once an 'easy' trip. It is now 2 hours - door to door. I no longer attend concerts but buy more music.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> They are in many ways culturally where America was during the Gilded Age / ca. 1914. A growing and aspiring middle class. Their interest in classical music will fade too.





Kreisler jr said:


> East Asia, and I think someone gave a plausible answer further above. Because China, South Korea etc. are in many ways similar in their socio-economical developmental stage to Western countries in the first half or 2/3rds of the 20th century.


That's just idiotic, sorry. South Korea, Japan and Taiwan are not developing countries. They're as wealthy as France, in fact wealthier than Italy and Spain. And classical music in those countries is as popular as ever.

Again, people who think kids can't appreciate classical music and/or it can't thrive in the modern world really do need to drop the Americentric bias and look at East Asia. What are they doing right that other countries are not?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Gallus said:


> That's just idiotic, sorry. South Korea, Japan and Taiwan are not developing countries. They're as wealthy as France, in fact wealthier than Italy and Spain. And classical music in those countries is as popular as ever.
> 
> Again, people who think kids can't appreciate classical music and/or it can't thrive in the modern world really do need to drop the Americentric bias and look at East Asia. What are they doing right that other countries are not?


Its significant that the three countries you name have been dominated by the USA since WWII, in terms of economy and foreign policy. Japan already had a classical music scene before that, though. China, of course, has had a different history - but there, growing prosperity has made the classical scene catch up fast. Singapore also has a strong classical scene.

I don't think that what's happened in these countries is transferable to the West, at least not fully. They've got more homogenised populations, cultures founded on respect for education (part of what the late Lee Kuan Yew called _Asian values_), and overall a more communal approach to society as compared to the more individualist tendencies prevalent in the West.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

starthrower said:


> You can't develop a passion for something you haven't been exposed to.


And the ones who had music education but didn't develop a passion for CM won't go to concerts.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

fluteman said:


> TwosetViolin is a hugely successful youtube channel with nearly 4 million subscribers run by two young Australian-Taiwanese classical violinists, Brett Yang and Eddy Chen, that mostly targets the 12 to 21 demographic but is popular with a general audience, including many who came to it with no prior interest in classical music. Hilary Hahn, Ray Chen and other classical stars are frequent guests (Chen is also originally from Australia). They have made two successful live world tours and will soon embark on a third, long delayed by the pandemic. They have a large fan base in Europe and the Americas as well as, of course, Asia and Australia.
> 
> I mention them here because they have all but singlehandedly demolished the myth that classical music cannot be sold to young people, repeated by some in this thread. Though video games and other current youth pop culture phenomena are prevailing themes in their videos, they go to great pains to be respectful of the western classical music tradition that always is their main topic, and mercilessly satirize any pop culture examples of disrespect, dismissing them with one of their running comments: "Sacrilegious!" Great, and funny, stuff.


Thank you for this post, I urge everyone on this platform to watch their videos. They are entertaining whilst being educational. They inspire me to love cm even more and practice more and made me think about playing in an orchestra as a career choice, not just for entertainment


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I haven't read early posts in this thread so perhaps someone discussed internet access to classical music earlier. I think there's strong evidence that concert attendance and sales (CDs) of classical music have declined (at least in the US). I wonder if anyone knows what the effect of internet streaming is on overall classical music listening. Obviously internet streaming has grown enormously in general, but are there data on classical music streaming such that we can get a sense of overall listenership over the past 30-40 years or so? 

Some people on TC have mentioned that much contemporary music is heard primarily through streaming and possibly by more young people than might attend concerts, I realize that one problem with listening through internet streaming is that vastly less money transfers to composers and performers than when listening at concerts and through CD or download sales. Anyway, I suspect that CM listenership is truly declining, but perhaps not quite as much as the most studies show.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Manxfeeder said:


> Maybe this writer's next book will be about getting young people to listen to Journey and Toto.


Good choices although I don't think that particular writer would go there. Maybe young people who are learning classical music can bring positive energy to getting some of their friends interested and involved. The classical music world must help facilitate that process, not maintain "us and them" attitudes.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

mmsbls said:


> Anyway, I suspect that CM listenership is truly declining, but perhaps not quite as much as the most studies show.





mmsbls said:


> Obviously internet streaming has grown enormously in general, but are there data on classical music streaming such that we can get a sense of overall listenership over the past 30-40 years or so?


I have not yet found this information - the proportion of CM sales from streaming - which is the top 1 or 2 method for purchasing music. But - did find this wondrous news albeit from 2018 (covid year 1): CM sales in the UK up 10%.

During 2018, CM CD sales alone were up 6.9%. UK CM CDs 2018


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Sid James said:


> I don't think that what's happened in these countries is transferable to the West, at least not fully. They've got more homogenised populations, cultures founded on respect for education (part of what the late Lee Kuan Yew called _Asian values_), and overall a more communal approach to society as compared to the more individualist tendencies prevalent in the West.


This is a much better reply than the previous idiotic ones about stages of economic development. And I agree that of course East Asia's experience with classical music is not transferable fully to the West. That's a truism. But it is an indication of where the effort needs to be made: music education and public exposure and prestige. 

Nothing, not least taste in music, is culturally essentialist. And it would be bizarre to admit defeat that the Western classical tradition will always be inherently less popular in the West come what may. Whether it is or not is a choice people make.


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

Gallus said:


> That's just idiotic, sorry.





Gallus said:


> the previous idiotic ones about stages of economic development.


A foolish dismissal of economic factors in the discussion of social habits looks a bit less embarassing when one uses a polite language.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> A foolish dismissal of economic factors in the discussion of social habits looks a bit less embarassing when one uses a polite language.


It would be foolish to dismiss economic factors in the discussion of social habits, I agree. I rightly dismissed the idea that stagist levels of economic development determine the popularity of musical styles (namely countries have to be at a "Gilded Age" level for classical music to be popular), pointing out that East Asia is as wealthy as Europe. We are not talking about different stages of economic development in these countries. And even if that wasn't the case I would have no idea what the causal connection would be since you failed to explain any.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Gallus said:


> That's just idiotic, sorry. South Korea, Japan and Taiwan are not developing countries. They're as wealthy as France, in fact wealthier than Italy and Spain. And classical music in those countries is as popular as ever.


Nobody said they were "developing" countries, certainly I didn't. I claimed that they are at a similar stage as Western Europe in the mid-20th century (when France or Germany obviously weren't "developing" countries either, having had strong industries already in the late 19th century). And I meant not only the economic but also social/cultural development (upwardly mobile strivers). The absolute wealth of a country is also not the main point (I missed the CM boom in Saudi Arabia and Emirates...) Of course, it's a bit more complicated because CM is not Asia's "homegrown" culture (which makes it probably both more special and a bit fresher compared with countries where CM has been entrenched in establishment bourgeois culture for 200 years) but I think it is hard to deny that factors like the extraordinary appreciation of education and "high culture" that were partly lost in the West in the last decades are still very strong in East Asia.
I don't know if CM is as popular in Italy as it used to be. These evaluations are always complicated and often ambiguous. E,g, in Germany/Austria there are apparently as many ambitious kids in CM youth competitions as in former decades but the disproportionate ageing of concert/opera audiences and the vanishing of CM from "general public" is also a rarely disputed fact.
There are factors like the self-sorting into media bubbles because we don't have only 3 channels as until the 80s (but 100 on TV and 1000s on youtube), nobody can (or should?) do anything about. 



> Again, people who think kids can't appreciate classical music and/or it can't thrive in the modern world really do need to drop the Americentric bias and look at East Asia. What are they doing right that other countries are not?


Appreciate (maybe a bit too much) education, ambition, high culture, hierarchy, instead of coolness, cockiness and entitlement (grumpy old man answer). 
But that's not something one can force easily and there were good reasons why the West who was highly demanding, not to say weeding out ruthlessly in secondary education in the early-mid 20th century has changed. But as in this forum there are still many people convinced that the CM is its own worst enemy and the main problem is elitism and not being sufficiently like popular music I think we have really thrown out the baby with the bathwater here.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Gallus said:


> It would be foolish to dismiss economic factors in the discussion of social habits, I agree. I rightly dismissed the idea that stagist levels of economic development determine the popularity of musical styles (namely countries have to be at a "Gilded Age" level for classical music to be popular), pointing out that East Asia is as wealthy as Europe. We are not talking about different stages of economic development in these countries. And even if that wasn't the case I would have no idea what the causal connection would be since you failed to explain any.


I wasn't thinking about "Gilded Age" early 1900s but more about "Wirtschaftswunder" 1950s Germany. The causal connection is that economically upwardly mobile (through education) societal strata emulate the social/cultural mores of the upper/middle classes. So one needs upward mobility by education and an established "high culture" that is associated with middle/upper middle class. This is not at all specific about classical music and needs no "essentialism"; it also holds for art prints or spoken word drama, not only for opera. (As I explained further above, even the socialist movements of the early 20th century usually did not deride high culture but wanted to make it accessible for everyone. This was somewhat different after the counterculture movements in the 1960s that eventually led to a status loss of high culture and weakening of the connection between economic class and culture appreciation.) 

As East Asia has "telescoped" the industrial and economic development that took a century or two in Europe into a few decades (Japan had more time but also a lost war in between) there are obviously still differences. That East Asia is so fond of a foreign Western high culture (and the dominance of music is probably because music travels more easily than literature or theatre) is also different to Europe where it's about the own tradition. Something "exotic" is often fresher than the dusty old stuff one has had for ages (cf. the African masks craze in the early 20th century and other exotisms in Western art). 
But I don't think it is too far fetched that we have an analogue that like the individuals rising up into (upper) middle class in 20th century Europe appreciated the culture of the upper classes, the rising countries of East Asia appreciate the culture of the already established powerful Western countries.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Of course, let's not beat ourselves up too much about how some Asian countries have taken to CM, while here it's allegedly in devline: they've taken to Western pop too!


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Forster said:


> Of course, let's not beat ourselves up too much about how some Asian countries have taken to CM, while here it's allegedly in devline: they've taken to Western pop too!


Yes, if the hypothesis that they are in some ways a few decades "behind", similar to Europe (with US rock'n roll) in the 60s is correct, they might follow a similar trajectory. However, I am not sure if similar factors for a counterculture movement like in late 60s/70s Europe exist in East Asia... so it might also be quite different.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> Yes, if the hypothesis that they are in some ways a few decades "behind", similar to Europe (with US rock'n roll) in the 60s is correct, they might follow a similar trajectory. However, I am not sure if similar factors for a counterculture movement like in late 60s/70s Europe exist in East Asia... so it might also be quite different.


In the case of S.Korea, they're not behind at all. They might have been, but they're now exporting K-Pop. See BTS...*Love Yourself: Tear*




> On May 27, 2018, the album debuted at number one on the US _Billboard_ 200, earning 135,000 album-equivalent units and becoming BTS' highest-charting album in a Western market at the time, as well as the first Korean album to top the US albums chart and the highest-charting album by an Asian act.[


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

ORigel said:


> And the ones who had music education but didn't develop a passion for CM won't go to concerts.


That's irrelevant. People who are genuinely interested will pursue the music and develop their passion. The rest can stay home and watch football if they're not interested.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> I think it is hard to deny that factors like the extraordinary appreciation of education and "high culture" that were partly lost in the West in the last decades are still very strong in East Asia.
> ...in Germany/Austria there are apparently as many ambitious kids in CM youth competitions as in former decades but the disproportionate ageing of concert/opera audiences and the vanishing of CM from "general public" is also a rarely disputed fact.
> ...we don't have only 3 channels as until the 80s (but 100 on TV and 1000s on youtube), nobody can (or should?) do anything about.





Kreisler jr said:


> ... I am not sure if similar factors for a counterculture movement like in late 60s/70s Europe exist in East Asia... so it might also be quite different.


Well put. The appreciation of 'high culture' or what some in the US refer to as 'high brow' culture has suffered in the west in part by _changes in societal 'norms' and the rise of modernism_. While this discussion is focused on CM, another example of this 'decline' in classical art forms and the rise and dominance of modern architecture. Beauty matters but people don't seem to understand why or care - thus counter-culture.

In US secondary schools - survey courses on the _history_ of western civilization barely mentioned the development of classical arts - which CM was limited to a few sentences on CM. _Thus - CM may be presented as part of the past and no longer relevant (to most people). It is not part of the mainstream. _


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Modernism didn't begin in the US in the 60/70s. Very loosely speaking it was a result of major cultural changes brought on by the Industrial Revolution, and then the first world war.


This is a really, really broad view of it, but when the great European civilizations spent the 1910s blowing each other to bloody pieces, there was a very specific reason people, including artists, became disenchanted with classicism.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Nice general overview. Modernism was a rejection of the past and response to developments (good and bad). Unfortunately, _most_ people consign the past, including its achievements, to the dustbin.

Modernism started around 1900, getting a foothold in the US at that time as well, (jazz, swing, ragtime, etc.). Population movement also played a role in the development of musical genres in the US.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

The trend I see is actually the opposite. The big problem I see these days is a severe pre-occupation with the past. While modernism had problems with a fetishization of the new, and utopian fallacies, it was trying to build something. 

I don't want to delve too much into politics, but in terms of art, you have severe emphasis on attempting to "correct" mistakes in the past (for good and ill), and the commercialization of nostalgia (vis. constant remakes of films, nostalgia-centric media and music genres, etc) which can stymie creativity. There is in fact too much focus on relitigating the past versus building a future.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

EvaBaron said:


> Thank you for this post, I urge everyone on this platform to watch their videos. They are entertaining whilst being educational. They inspire me to love cm even more and practice more and made me think about playing in an orchestra as a career choice, not just for entertainment


You are very welcome. It's interesting to see how TwoSetViolin have been able to use Youtube and a few other online platforms to undermine the premise that many of the posts in this thread are based on, and that many members here apparently continue to accept without question, that most young people do not and will not have any interest in classical music. While there is an ocean of humdrum material on Youtube, more than a few Youtubers have had great success exploring artistic avenues ignored or underserved by more traditional outlets. TwoSetViolin has leveraged that success into tours of major concert halls around the world, videos with Hilary Hahn, Ray Chen and Maxim Vengerov, and even a cover story in Strad magazine, i.e., traditional, mainstream notoriety.
This only confirms what I have long suspected and argued -- that rigid, narrow ideas about how classical music must be presented only serve to reduce the potential audience.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Gallus said:


> This is a much better reply than the previous idiotic ones about stages of economic development. And I agree that of course East Asia's experience with classical music is not transferable fully to the West. That's a truism. But it is an indication of where the effort needs to be made: music education and public exposure and prestige.
> 
> Nothing, not least taste in music, is culturally essentialist. And it would be bizarre to admit defeat that the Western classical tradition will always be inherently less popular in the West come what may. Whether it is or not is a choice people make.


I didn't mean to refute what VoiceFromTheEther or Kreisler jr said. Its your mention of Japan, Taiwan and South Korea which caught my attention (as I said, all three dominated by the USA since the Cold War) and also of "Americentric bias."

I think that an underlying issue to all this is that if a country looks after the fundamentals (e.g. economy, education, health), its more likely that arts and culture will be looked after also. In the USA, classical music probably isn't going as badly as it looks, but I think that the damage done to the industry there in the past few decades are more about local factors than anything else.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Nobody said they were "developing" countries, certainly I didn't. I claimed that they are at a similar stage as Western Europe in the mid-20th century (when France or Germany obviously weren't "developing" countries either, having had strong industries already in the late 19th century). And I meant not only the economic but also social/cultural development (upwardly mobile strivers).


And this is not true by any metric. Which was my only point.  Any artificial comparison of modern East Asian countries to Europe or the USA a century ago is facile.

You' and others have replied with several interesting suggestions of why Western classical music is currently more popular in East Asian countries than its homeland which I agree with. I think it's critical for classical music advocates trying to popularise the genre in our countries to look at why it is succeeding elsewhere and what lessons we can learn from it.



Sid James said:


> I didn't mean to refute what VoiceFromTheEther or Kreisler jr said. Its your mention of Japan, Taiwan and South Korea which caught my attention (as I said, all three dominated by the USA since the Cold War) and also of "Americentric bias."
> 
> I think that an underlying issue to all this is that if a country looks after the fundamentals (e.g. economy, education, health), its more likely that arts and culture will be looked after also. In the USA, classical music probably isn't going as badly as it looks, but I think that the damage done to the industry there in the past few decades are more about local factors than anything else.


Yes, this is all what I was arguing.  A decline in music education and a decline in the cultural prestige of 'higher' forms rooted in the European tradition are central to the story. People who want classical music to survive have to make the argument for the value and importance of that tradition. They get it Taiwan, there's no reason why they shouldn't in the United States (or the UK, Germany etc.).


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

Just to play devil's advocate, is it really such a bad thing that classical music isn't popular? Attention is finite, so why should classical receive attention at the expense of other genres?


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## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

Gallus said:


> And this is not true by any metric. Which was my only point.  Any artificial comparison of modern East Asian countries to Europe or the USA a century ago is facile.
> 
> You' and others have replied with several interesting suggestions of why Western classical music is currently more popular in East Asian countries than its homeland which I agree with. I think it's critical for classical music advocates trying to popularise the genre in our countries to look at why it is succeeding elsewhere and what lessons we can learn from it.
> 
> ...


1. They never had the culture wars.

Remember what happened in the 1950s through 1970s ? CULTURE WARS. Modernism, Vietnam War, and for America, the civil rights movement as well. Europe and America underwent huge shifts in the " culture " that ultimately fractured our appreciation for the classical forms. 

Japan for the most part, South Korea, Singapore, never had those culture wars.

2. Asian parenting also plays a role. YOU HAVE TO PLAY A INSTRUMENT. It's literally the tiger mom stuff. So even if kids hate playing the piano, they're exposed more to the classical forms, more so than the US kid.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Gallus said:


> Yes, this is all what I was arguing.  A decline in music education and a decline in the cultural prestige of 'higher' forms rooted in the European tradition are central to the story. People who want classical music to survive have to make the argument for the value and importance of that tradition. They get it Taiwan, there's no reason why they shouldn't in the United States (or the UK, Germany etc.).


As I said, I think the USA is a different kettle of fish, so to speak. The classical industry there has become exposed due to a combination of factors (e.g. poor financial management, loopholes in the tax system and also issues to do with labor laws). This is why in 2008, some orchestras went bankrupt and others where right at the brink. The full impacts of Covid-19 are yet to be seen.

Overall though, I think that classical will survive as long as it continues adapting to changes. I guess what the USA example shows is at the heart of everything, including cultural policy, is good financial management and planning for the future. No use in eating today so that you can starve tommorrow.

Equity is a huge issue in music education. As I mentioned, Venezuela started dealing with this fifty years ago with El Sistema. It more or less built classical industry in that country from the ground up. Similarly, Lang Lang has done a lot for China in helping set up music schools throughout the country. These combine business with charity, because he is the founder of a chain of tuition companies there. He's recently donated pianos to disadvantaged schools in the UK, where students who don't go to a private school have little chance of learning music:









Chinese pianist Lang Lang to donate hundreds of keyboards to London schools


The musician, 39, said he has been ‘shocked’ by how limited access to music lessons can be in the UK.




www.standard.co.uk


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Kreisler jr said:


> Yes, if the hypothesis that they are in some ways a few decades "behind", similar to Europe (with US rock'n roll) in the 60s is correct, they might follow a similar trajectory. However, I am not sure if similar factors for a counterculture movement like in late 60s/70s Europe exist in East Asia... so it might also be quite different.


Probably not much of a counterculture in the Western sense, although you had pop groups visit Japan in particular.

I think that during the immediate postwar decades, Asia was recovering from the war, dealing with the onset of the Cold War and also effects of decolonisation. I think that in this context, their boomers grew up in vastly different circumstances than the ones in the West.



fbjim said:


> Modernism didn't begin in the US in the 60/70s. Very loosely speaking it was a result of major cultural changes brought on by the Industrial Revolution, and then the first world war.


Don't you mean postmodernism? Modernism starts to wind down in the 1950's. Where that ends and postmodernism begins depends on who you ask, but 1968 is a year often mentioned.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Gallus said:


> A decline in music education and a decline in the cultural prestige of 'higher' forms rooted in the European tradition are central to the story. People who want classical music to survive have to make the argument for the value and importance of that tradition. They get it Taiwan, there's no reason why they shouldn't in the United States (or the UK, Germany etc.).





Gallus said:


> I think it's critical for classical music advocates trying to popularise the genre in our countries to look at why it is succeeding elsewhere and what lessons we can learn from it.


Popularizing CM in western nations may be a worthy goal for members of TC to consider. If interested (and potentially committed) people organized to explore what could be done, this might be a start. Maybe an idea for a poll? How many active members on TC?

The future of Western classical music may be in the hands of Asia’s rising musicians is a brief and interesting read about CM there.

Regarding the history of CM in Japan: After the restoration of the Meiji Emperor in 1868, Japan sent missions abroad to study the educational systems of western countries. A new primary school syllabus was introduced in 1871 that emphasized western (rather than Japanese) music. The government encouraged the formal study of western music as an intellectual discipline. Music education begins at the age of 6, and at some point, are encouraged to learn to play instruments. The CM market in Japan may be about 20%.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Sid James said:


> Don't you mean postmodernism? Modernism starts to wind down in the 1950's. Where that ends and postmodernism begins depends on who you ask, but 1968 is a year often mentioned.


Yes, I didn't catch that oversight.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

4chamberedklavier said:


> Just to play devil's advocate, is it really such a bad thing that classical music isn't popular? Attention is finite, so why should classical receive attention at the expense of other genres?


Because I want to be listening to my favorite recordings in 40 years' time, and I won't be able to do that if the CM industry dies.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Caroline said:


> Yes, I didn't catch that oversight.


I actually think that most people on TC are fine with modernism, or at least the experience of modern life. You'd have to go back to living before the industrial revolution to avoid any aspect of it. I think that what lies at the heart of many debates here is disagreement about the legacy, or the consequences, of modernism rather than modernism itself.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Sid James said:


> I actually think that most people on TC are fine with modernism, or at least the experience of modern life. You'd have to go back to living before the industrial revolution to avoid any aspect of it. I think that what lies at the heart of many debates here is disagreement about the legacy, or the consequences, of modernism rather than modernism itself.


Well I'm certainly fine with "Modernism" and I'm not fine with the political meal being made out of it.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Sid James said:


> I actually think that most people on TC are fine with modernism, or at least the experience of modern life. You'd have to go back to living before the industrial revolution to avoid any aspect of it. I think that what lies at the heart of many debates here is disagreement about the legacy, or the consequences, of modernism rather than modernism itself.


Just to clarify, the comments made about modernism, in general, are not to evaluate its implications on the human experience, whether in part or in entirety, whether positive or negative. Modernism, or whatever label one may affix to changes in the 20th century, may be considered a contributing factor to the decline in CM listenership in western nations. To reiterate, the adoption of change should not mean that one tosses out the baby with the bathwater. 

Moreover, personal opinions, especially those leaning toward those political, are unrelated to the question of how to bring more people to CM in my opinion.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

starthrower said:


> That's irrelevant. People who are genuinely interested will pursue the music and develop their passion. The rest can stay home and watch football if they're not interested.


That seems beside the point. The main question is why so few people become genuinely interested or at least somewhat interested (many sports thrive not only on the hardcore but also the occasional fans) and how to change it. And not having to travel longer distances to see live classical music could well be a factor here.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

4chamberedklavier said:


> Just to play devil's advocate, is it really such a bad thing that classical music isn't popular? Attention is finite, so why should classical receive attention at the expense of other genres?


Yes, why not? If we don't play our favorites, we are bound to lose because everyone else is playing their favorites.
The thing about classical music is that it is quite expensive, especially symphonic music and opera. People need a decade or more of musical education to become professional musician, starting in childhood (and most of this is already now covered by parents, not the listening public). There is a larger critical mass of audience attention needed, otherwise it will become very rare. And this isn't new. For most of its history classical music was dependent on public coffers or rich sponsors, only for some short times some composers could make enough money on something like a "free market".


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Kreisler jr said:


> That seems beside the point. The main question is why so few people become genuinely interested or at least somewhat interested (many sports thrive not only on the hardcore but also the occasional fans) and how to change it. And not having to travel longer distances to see live classical music could well be a factor here.


"So few people"? As opposed to the throngs obsessed with classical art, literature, poetry and theater? Why aren't we discussing why more people aren't interested in Dostoevsky, Rilke, Cezanne and Ibsen? As Zubin Mehta once said, the symphony orchestra is a museum, and museums have had some tough times in recent years, especially those in Iraq, Syria, and most recently, Ukraine. Preserving a long and varied cultural heritage is a never ending challenge. Western classical music is doing rather well on the whole, for a variety of reasons. Of course it will become increasingly expensive and impractical to stage full-scale operas and symphony orchestras, but that is an inevitable aspect of cultural evolution, and doesn't mean those musical traditions will be forgotten entirely.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Kreisler jr said:


> That seems beside the point. The main question is why so few people become genuinely interested or at least somewhat interested (many sports thrive not only on the hardcore but also the occasional fans) and how to change it. And not having to travel longer distances to see live classical music could well be a factor here.


Most people relate to popular music much easier than the classics, or jazz. It's just that simple and the reasons are pretty obvious. It's more immediate and easy to relate to for most people. It's also quite obvious that in this day and age people don't need to leave their homes to enjoy good music including the classics. Everybody has a big TV with a sound bar and sub, or a/v receiver and speakers for even better sound. Who needs to spend over a hundred dollars or more to drive downtown to go to the symphony? And hope your car doesn't get broken into while you're at the concert. But in the end, classical music is a niche genre so it's never going to be popular. And that's the way I like it. The other folks can pay $200 to go see some big rock star and I can go to the chamber music concert for $25 and not have to deal with crowds and traffic. Be careful what you wish for.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

fluteman said:


> "So few people"? As opposed to the throngs obsessed with classical art, literature, poetry and theater? Why aren't we discussing why more people aren't interested in Dostoevsky, Rilke, Cezanne and Ibsen?


Because this is a classical music forum? Not one about poetry and painting. That was easy. As I explained, CM is not an asset like a Cezanne painting that can go for millions of $$$ and it is not cheap like books but it is very expensive and needs a considerable audience to be feasible. That's not really difficult or controversial either.
FWIW I am similarly (although for some of the reasons mentioned not quite to the extent) concerned about "survival" of other "high culture" like visual art and poetry but didn't see the need to go there in a CM forum.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

starthrower said:


> Most people relate to popular music much easier than the classics, or jazz. It's just that simple and the reasons are pretty obvious. It's more immediate and easy to relate to for most people.
> But in the end, classical music is a niche genre so it's never going to be popular.


You are repeating the same statement with different words. What are the obvious reasons? I am not at all sure and I thought one purpose of this thread was to find out in order to change the situation. Why is this an obvious and unchangeable fact? And why is it different in the US, Europe and East Asia?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The reasons why have already been discussed. It's about education and exposure. In America, classical music and jazz are virtually invisible in the commercial world so the only way to combat this is to expose school children to the arts so they understand that something else exists besides commercial music.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

fluteman said:


> "So few people"? As opposed to the throngs obsessed with classical art, literature, poetry and theater? Why aren't we discussing why more people aren't interested in Dostoevsky, Rilke, Cezanne and Ibsen? As Zubin Mehta once said, the symphony orchestra is a museum, and museums have had some tough times in recent years, especially those in Iraq, Syria, and most recently, Ukraine. Preserving a long and varied cultural heritage is a never ending challenge. Western classical music is doing rather well on the whole, for a variety of reasons. Of course it will become increasingly expensive and impractical to stage full-scale operas and symphony orchestras, but that is an inevitable aspect of cultural evolution, and doesn't mean those musical traditions will be forgotten entirely.


Yes, I know this is a CM forum.


Kreisler jr said:


> Because this is a classical music forum? Not one about poetry and painting. That was easy. As I explained, CM is not an asset like a Cezanne painting that can go for millions of $$$ and it is not cheap like books but it is very expensive and needs a considerable audience to be feasible. That's not really difficult or controversial either.
> FWIW I am similarly (although for some of the reasons mentioned not quite to the extent) concerned about "survival" of other "high culture" like visual art and poetry but didn't see the need to go there in a CM forum.


Yes, I know this is a CM forum. My point was, western classical music traditions are surviving at least as well as other classical art traditions. They all require an educated audience that is imperiled when a society fails to adequately support its educational institutions. And all conventional performing arts are becoming increasingly expensive and impractical to stage, as recording, broadcast, and now downloads and streaming take over, imperfect substitutes though they may be.

There is no reason to single out classical music.


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## Colibrìgioioso (8 mo ago)

I'm new in this forum. I'll introduce myself but I would to write my opinion. For me the people don't listen classical music because they think that it isn't enough listen and appreciate but they have to study the piece. They think that they can't analyze the piece minute for minute they didn't listen it! But we aren't in a school, there is any examination.
It is necessary a less rigid approach, more lightness, just listen.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Colibrìgioioso said:


> I'm new in this forum. I'll introduce myself but I would to write my opinion. For me the people don't listen classical music because they think that it isn't enough listen and appreciate but they have to study the piece. They think that they can't analyze the piece minute for minute they didn't listen it! But we aren't in a school, there is any examination.
> It is necessary a less rigid approach, more lightness, just listen.


Just listen, don't think, just "be" in the Other world of music and be content with stopping there. Yes, that's many peoples' opinion in just about every technical subject which people find difficult. 

It's a pleasant approach and many musicians savor it of course, but really that's a whole higher level which comes after the learning.

You just joined an hour ago. wow! welcome welcome!


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## Colibrìgioioso (8 mo ago)

Thank for the welcome. No I don't think it is "listen don't think". You can think, it's good, but you haven't to study the piece, it isn't a problem if you don't remember it perfectly. I believe that from listen without think to analyze perfectly minutes for minutes there is a big space.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Colibrìgioioso said:


> Thank for the welcome. No I don't think it is "listen don't think". You can think, it's good, but you haven't to study the piece, it isn't a problem if you don't remember it perfectly. I believe that from listen without think to analyze perfectly minutes for minutes there is a big space.


Yes, there is a large space which you grow through, depending upon your opportunites. Where you stop is a personal choice, but people should be aware that there's so much more to music. I've spent a long life with it and I am still often mystified by what's possible, all starting with simple fundamentals which have natural effects on everyone.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Forster said:


> Well I'm certainly fine with "Modernism" and I'm not fine with the political meal being made out of it.


I think now that political discussion here has been curtailed, its only ideology that is left. Whether we are conscious of it or not, we all have some sort of ideological bias. That's not necessarily a problem, but how it seems to work out so badly in online discussions is.



Caroline said:


> Just to clarify, the comments made about modernism, in general, are not to evaluate its implications on the human experience, whether in part or in entirety, whether positive or negative.


I think there are links between the experience of modernity and artist's responses to it.



> Modernism, or whatever label one may affix to changes in the 20th century, may be considered a contributing factor to the decline in CM listenership in western nations. To reiterate, the adoption of change should not mean that one tosses out the baby with the bathwater.


I think that its contribution to any decline, in terms of the music alone, is overrated. There might be a stronger argument in terms of how ideological approaches informed by modernism negatively impacted on music, but I think that's more or less limited to those who where working in music rather than the audience.



> Moreover, personal opinions, especially those leaning toward those political, are unrelated to the question of how to bring more people to CM in my opinion.


I think social justice is political. If you look at what reformers in music education like Zoltan Kodaly did, and also Jose Antonio Abreu (who founded El Sistema in Venezuala, which I mentioned), their work was at least in terms of its impact, political. It must be said though that their aim was to build up music education, and their first priority was to achieve their goals, not to serve purely political interests. Abreu, for example, worked with whoever was in power. His program gave many gifted young people a way out of poverty, drugs and violence. His longer TED talk is also on youtube, but in this short clip you can see some of the poor conditions he was working in.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Sid James said:


> I think now that political discussion here has been curtailed, its only ideology that is left. Whether we are conscious of it or not, we all have some sort of ideological bias. That's not necessarily a problem, but how it seems to work out so badly in online discussions is.
> 
> I think there are links between the experience of modernity and artist's responses to it.
> 
> ...


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Sid James said:


> I think now that political discussion here has been curtailed, its only ideology that is left. Whether we are conscious of it or not, we all have some sort of ideological bias. That's not necessarily a problem, but how it seems to work out so badly in online discussions is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was a thoughtful and diplomatically worded post, thanks. After observing all the lengthy debates here about the role of classical music in today's society for several years, I would conclude that it is indeed hard to avoid their ideological undercurrent. Here at TC, "classical music" mainly means an 18th and 19th century European aristocratic and wealthy bourgeois tradition, and implicit in assumptions that its current cultural role is not as great as it ought to be, as made by the OP in this thread for example, is a judgment on the relative worth and importance of 18th and 19th century European aristocratic and wealthy bourgeois cultural values. 

Posters operating on this assumption here often indignantly argue that there is nothing political or ideological about their comments. Yet, 20th century modernism and current popular music over and over emerge as alleged villains, and the ideological implications become clear. 

When I point out that in fact classical music can be and often is appealing to young people, and that the discussion of this thread and others like it is largely based on a false premise, the point is largely ignored. This also suggests that an ideological agenda motivates most of these threads.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

fluteman said:


> That was a thoughtful and diplomatically worded post, thanks. After observing all the lengthy debates here about the role of classical music in today's society for several years, I would conclude that it is indeed hard to avoid their ideological undercurrent. Here at TC, "classical music" mainly means an 18th and 19th century European aristocratic and wealthy bourgeois tradition, and implicit in assumptions that its current cultural role is not as great as it ought to be, as made by the OP in this thread for example, is a judgment on the relative worth and importance of 18th and 19th century European aristocratic and wealthy bourgeois cultural values.
> 
> Posters operating on this assumption here often indignantly argue that there is nothing political or ideological about their comments. Yet, 20th century modernism and current popular music over and over emerge as alleged villains, and the ideological implications become clear.
> 
> When I point out that in fact classical music can be and often is appealing to young people, and that the discussion of this thread and others like it is largely based on a false premise, the point is largely ignored. This also suggests that an ideological agenda motivates most of these threads.


I'm not sure if your comment suggests that young people tend to listen to 20th century modernism (or later) classical music (i.e. the last 2 paragraphs are correlated). When you say classical music often is appealing to young people, could you explain whether you mean some young people listen to classical music or that a significant percentage of young people do. If the later, do you have any data or reasons to believe that's true. I would love to think it's true, but my admittedly small sample suggests otherwise. 

Certainly some people could have ideological reasons for thinking 20th century modernism has caused a decrease in classical music listenership, but I tend to doubt that most do. When I first came to TC, I was stunned by how different and unpleasant the 20th century and contemporary music appeared to me. It was natural to believe that the music was a clear impediment to listening. I no longer view modern and contemporary music that way, but I can understand that view without reference to ideological motives.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I remember my father - he was a teacher of English Literature - being horrified that the school I was at when I was 9 was trying to teach us Shakespeare. He felt it would put us off for life and forewarned in this way I was really wowed with Shakespeare when I was 15 or so. He was all for boys of 9 reading Treasure Island (a book I still love). *There are probably musical equivalents to all this*. Certainly, I got into classical music early because I wanted to and I wanted to because it was all around me. Mozart came first.
> 
> But what of children who grow up in houses with no or few books and no classical music? How are they going to get access or guidance? Much could be done in schools but too many schools are environments that alienate kids and make them feel they are "on the other side" to their teachers. I doubt such schools could do anything with music even if they had the money to include it in their curriculum.


Indeed there are. Some were written specifically to be engaging to children:

*Saint-Saëns – Carnival of the Animals
Prokofiev – Peter and the Wolf*

Others seem to captivate children despite the work not being specifically child-oriented. A lot of Tchaikovsky seems to pop up as child-friendly:

*Tchaikovsky - 1812 Overture*
*Tchaikovsky - Capriccio Italien
Tchiakovsky - The Nutcracker
Tchiakovsky - Swan Lake
Mozart – Eine Kleine Nachtmusik
Bizet – Overture to Carmen
Vivaldi - The Four Seasons
Handel - Water Music
Elmer Bernstein - Theme from The Great Escape
Grieg - In the Hall of the Mountain King
Beethoven - Symphony No. 5*


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I will here again offer my support--in the face of past massive scorn and disapproval--for Andre Rieu and his like. Granted that he brings a light and airy mix of accessible music to a vast public, in that sense he can be sensibly regarded as a force for promoting or expanding the potential audience for CM, though most of that future audience may largely not be of the committed, earnest sort that some here seem to believe are the only fully worthy folk of the gift of CM.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

mmsbls said:


> I'm not sure if your comment suggests that young people tend to listen to 20th century modernism (or later) classical music (i.e. the last 2 paragraphs are correlated). When you say classical music often is appealing to young people, could you explain whether you mean some young people listen to classical music or that a significant percentage of young people do. If the later, do you have any data or reasons to believe that's true. I would love to think it's true, but my admittedly small sample suggests otherwise.
> 
> Certainly some people could have ideological reasons for thinking 20th century modernism has caused a decrease in classical music listenership, but I tend to doubt that most do. When I first came to TC, I was stunned by how different and unpleasant the 20th century and contemporary music appeared to me. It was natural to believe that the music was a clear impediment to listening. I no longer view modern and contemporary music that way, but I can understand that view without reference to ideological motives.


Some Modern CM s very accessible (e.g. Shosty's 1st violin concerto), while other Modern CM is great yet an acquired taste (e.g. Bartok's string quartets). I will never like modern CM (or contemporary CM) as much as I like composers such as Beethoven, Brahms, and Dvorak.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

mmsbls said:


> I'm not sure if your comment suggests that young people tend to listen to 20th century modernism (or later) classical music (i.e. the last 2 paragraphs are correlated). When you say classical music often is appealing to young people, could you explain whether you mean some young people listen to classical music or that a significant percentage of young people do. If the later, do you have any data or reasons to believe that's true. I would love to think it's true, but my admittedly small sample suggests otherwise.
> 
> Certainly some people could have ideological reasons for thinking 20th century modernism has caused a decrease in classical music listenership, but I tend to doubt that most do. When I first came to TC, I was stunned by how different and unpleasant the 20th century and contemporary music appeared to me. It was natural to believe that the music was a clear impediment to listening. I no longer view modern and contemporary music that way, but I can understand that view without reference to ideological motives.


There's something in the sounds of classical music, no, I think if it's a lasting interest it would include all of the other aspects of music too. The techniques in the long sweep of development, from the simpler sounds of the 4th and 5th, all the way to Shostakovich at least.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

mmsbls said:


> I'm not sure if your comment suggests that young people tend to listen to 20th century modernism (or later) classical music (i.e. the last 2 paragraphs are correlated). When you say classical music often is appealing to young people, could you explain whether you mean some young people listen to classical music or that a significant percentage of young people do. If the later, do you have any data or reasons to believe that's true. I would love to think it's true, but my admittedly small sample suggests otherwise.
> 
> Certainly some people could have ideological reasons for thinking 20th century modernism has caused a decrease in classical music listenership, but I tend to doubt that most do. When I first came to TC, I was stunned by how different and unpleasant the 20th century and contemporary music appeared to me. It was natural to believe that the music was a clear impediment to listening. I no longer view modern and contemporary music that way, but I can understand that view without reference to ideological motives.


Was your post meant to be a reply to mine? It doesn't look like you've read my posts in this thread at all. Anyway, you are more than welcome to like or dislike any 20th century or contemporary music, I don't think one's personal tastes can have any ideological implications, and never said they did. Although, I am puzzled how you could ever come to such sweeping conclusions about all 20th century and contemporary music. Not surprisingly, over a period of years and presumably more extensive listening, your opinions began to change. But that has nothing to do with what I was saying.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Most young people just aren't the market for art music. Nothing that rewards careful attention is.

But at some point they are too old to go clubbing, some of them discover that the pop hits of their youth do not reward attention, some of them want to explore the world's cultural heritage, and some of them want to enjoy something classy, and then their white heads join the others. 

I don't know that people will always be listening to Bach and Beethoven as much as we do now, but about 5% of the population (skewing older) will always be interested in something more complex and layered than what the other 95% is content with.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

science said:


> I don't know that people will always be listening to Bach and Beethoven as much as we do now, but about 5% of the population (skewing older) will always be interested in something more complex and layered than what the other 95% is content with.


There are over a billion people in Europe and North America. And there are classical listeners in Asia, South America, and everywhere else in the world. Five percent works out to well over 50 million listeners.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

fluteman said:


> Was your post meant to be a reply to mine? It doesn't look like you've read my posts in this thread at all. Anyway, you are more than welcome to like or dislike any 20th century or contemporary music, I don't think one's personal tastes can have any ideological implications, and never said they did. Although, I am puzzled how you could ever come to such sweeping conclusions about all 20th century and contemporary music. Not surprisingly, over a period of years and presumably more extensive listening, your opinions began to change. But that has nothing to do with what I was saying.


I apologize for perhaps misunderstanding your post. I think we both are not on the same page. I was not aware of making any sweeping conclusions in my post, and I just wanted to know what you meant by "...in fact classical music can be and often is appealing to young people." I wondered if you had information on a topic where I have very little. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

ORigel said:


> Some Modern CM s very accessible (e.g. Shosty's 1st violin concerto), while other Modern CM is great yet an acquired taste (e.g. Bartok's string quartets). I will never like modern CM (or contemporary CM) as much as I like composers such as Beethoven, Brahms, and Dvorak.


Well said. My preferences are based on how much I enjoy the _sound _based on a number of factors (form, texture, tonality, patterns, instrumentation, etc., etc.). This for the most part excludes modern music because I dislike the sound of it. My exposure was initially to romantic period works (what I grew up with) - but acquired a preference for classical form even though I still very much appreciate romantic era works.

Shorter pieces (or excerpts of larger ones) of classical and romantic works (and instrumental vs keyboard) may encourage new potential listeners to listen to CM and develop an appreciation for it. A few examples were kindly posted by pianozach. For many CM devotees - this was our introduction.



mmsbls said:


> hen I first came to TC, I was stunned by how different and unpleasant the 20th century and contemporary music appeared to me...I no longer view modern and contemporary music that way, but I can understand that view without reference to ideological motives.


I would add that ideology is not correlated for a number of listeners (and I include myself in that), particularly new ones.



pianozach said:


> Indeed there are. Some were written specifically to be engaging to children:
> 
> *Saint-Saëns – Carnival of the Animals
> Prokofiev – Peter and the Wolf*
> ...


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Caroline said:


> Well said. My preferences are based on how much I enjoy the _sound _based on a number of factors (form, texture, tonality, patterns, instrumentation, etc., etc.). This for the most part excludes modern music because I dislike the sound of it. My exposure was initially to romantic period works (what I grew up with) - but acquired a preference for classical form even though I still very much appreciate romantic era works.
> 
> Shorter pieces (or excerpts of larger ones) of classical and romantic works (and instrumental vs keyboard) may encourage new potential listeners to listen to CM and develop an appreciation for it. A few examples were kindly posted by pianozach. For many CM devotees - this was our introduction.
> 
> ...


In my experience Carnaval and Peter and the Wolf are distracting to young people because of their extra-musical allusions. I found it's better to give them Mozart piano sonatas or Chopin nocturnes etc.. And then if the melodies do nothing for them they're not ready to explore beyond familiar songs, for understanding and 'analyzing'. Because I think the goal is, as soon as possible, get them interested in the notes, instead of mind pictures.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Luchesi said:


> In my experience Carnaval and Peter and the Wolf are distracting to young people because of their extra-musical allusions. I found it's better to give them Mozart piano sonatas or Chopin nocturnes etc.. And then if the melodies do nothing for them they're not ready to explore beyond familiar songs, for understanding and 'analyzing'. Because I think the goal is, as soon as possible, get them interested in the notes, instead of mind pictures.


I was captivated by _Peter and the Wolf_ as a child, as it introduced the sounds of the various instruments and also because of its wonderful melodies, invoking all sorts of moods and emotions. Others have praised, correctly,_ Peer Gynt_, and a lot of Respighi and Sibelius (tone poems) can also instill interest in further exploring classical music. One must first hook the fish, then one can worry about whether it is being cooked properly.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> In my experience Carnaval and Peter and the Wolf are distracting to young people because of their extra-musical allusions.....


I have a recording of Peter and the Wolf conducted by Andre Previn, and narrated by then wife Mia Farrow. The narrations caused it to really drag.


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> Peter and the Wolf are distracting to young people because of their extra-musical allusions. I found it's better to give them Mozart piano sonatas or Chopin nocturnes etc.





progmatist said:


> I have a recording of Peter and the Wolf conducted by Andre Previn, and narrated by then wife Mia Farrow. The narrations caused it to really drag.


The narration is distracting for some listeners (me included). However, the production contains a nice selection of melodies, and isolating each instrument is really beneficial. When introducing children and adults - to CM - I have had the best experience with 'lighter' excerpts from Mozart, Mendelssohn, Chopin (piano), and Tschaikovsky. Ballet music and marches that are associated with movement and dance are good options.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

progmatist said:


> I have a recording of Peter and the Wolf conducted by Andre Previn, and narrated by then wife Mia Farrow. The narrations caused it to really drag.


How old were you upon first hearing it? My first listening was when I was very young--the narrator was the British actor Basil Rathbone on 78s. Released 1941. Shown is the original album art; I remember it well


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Caroline said:


> Agree - people have unique ideological bents and preferences. I think that these apply to a more or lesser degree across different aspects of our lives - for example, philosophical or artistic. Also as you point out, these discussions and nuances don't lend themselves well to online discussions and there are many shades of gray.


That's my point. Online discussion of topics like this can go well if we try to drop the need to convince eachother and just talk. Not impossible, but rare in my experience.



> Another very good point you articulated is that many composers (keeping to CM), especially during times of social change, expressed their interpretation of events. Art imitates life. The Eroica, which did not immediately meet with universal public acclaim, expressed not only struggles in the composer's life, but also his interpretation of social and political upheaval. It is amongst the most frequently performed symphonies in the world today.


I think that history and aesthetics inform, rather than detract from, discussions of music. Music doesn’t come out of a vacuum.



fluteman said:


> That was a thoughtful and diplomatically worded post, thanks. After observing all the lengthy debates here about the role of classical music in today's society for several years, I would conclude that it is indeed hard to avoid their ideological undercurrent. Here at TC, "classical music" mainly means an 18th and 19th century European aristocratic and wealthy bourgeois tradition, and implicit in assumptions that its current cultural role is not as great as it ought to be, as made by the OP in this thread for example, is a judgment on the relative worth and importance of 18th and 19th century European aristocratic and wealthy bourgeois cultural values.


A lot has changed since the 19th century, which was the time of the industrial revolution. I think that since then, we have became a society of consumers. I would argue that the origins of this aren’t a break from what happened in the 19th century, they actually stem from it. While many of us are now alienated from playing and creating music, there is undoubtedly more music everywhere, and we as individuals can choose to listen to whatever suits our needs at any given moment.



> Posters operating on this assumption here often indignantly argue that there is nothing political or ideological about their comments. Yet, 20th century modernism and current popular music over and over emerge as alleged villains, and the ideological implications become clear.


I don’t think its useful to play the blame game. I’m more interested in solutions, and I think that requires political effort to bring about social change through education.



fluteman said:


> When I point out that in fact classical music can be and often is appealing to young people, and that the discussion of this thread and others like it is largely based on a false premise, the point is largely ignored. This also suggests that an ideological agenda motivates most of these threads.


We know that many young people are accessing classical online. As regards this forum, all you can do is say your opinion, even if you feel its different. The worst thing for a forum like this is if everyone started parroting everybody else. We need a variety of opinions here.









BBC Radio 3 - This Classical Life - Why are more young people listening to classical music?


This Classical Life's Jess Gillam explores classical's growing appeal with the under-30s.




www.bbc.co.uk


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Aptly spoken. I do think that many posters are sensitive to this and endeavor to walk a fine line between posting information, and subjective interpretation, while presenting information in a way that does not seek to convince others. 😊



Sid James said:


> A lot has changed since the 19th century, which was the time of the industrial revolution. I think that since then, we have became a society of consumers. I would argue that the origins of this aren’t a break from what happened in the 19th century, they actually stem from it. While many of us are now alienated from playing and creating music, there is undoubtedly more music everywhere, and we as individuals can choose to listen to whatever suits our needs at any given moment.


Prescient and well stated.



Sid James said:


> I don’t think its useful to play the blame game. I’m more interested in solutions, and I think that requires political effort to bring about social change through education.


Fully agree about the unhelpfulness of assigning blame and that political organization and will is required. People who sell music could also be instrumental (no pun!) in this. From a US perspective, with an arguably decrepit school system, parents need to have a role in assessing and changing what and how their children are educated.

CM would also benefit from a public relations initiative, which could be part of driving public interest and thus political intervention.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Chicago's world-class 24/7 classical music station - WFMT - offers this program "Bach to School" -They have subscription drives twice a year and if you donate a certain amount of money they donate one or more of these packages to local area schools - So far they've donated 2000 plus kits to 500 plus schools with 10,000 plus students benefiting.

WFMT. com can be heard online - It's worth a listen - Note: It isn't quite 24/7 classical music - On Saturday nights, they have "Folk Stage" and "Midnight Special" - other than that, it's pretty much all classical all the time.









WFMT | Chicago's Classical & Folk Music Radio Streaming Online


Hear superlative classical programs, concerts, and live events you cannot hear anywhere else – broadcasts your favorite orchestras and festivals — and more.




www.wfmt.com


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

mmsbls said:


> I apologize for perhaps misunderstanding your post. I think we both are not on the same page. I was not aware of making any sweeping conclusions in my post, and I just wanted to know what you meant by "...in fact classical music can be and often is appealing to young people." I wondered if you had information on a topic where I have very little. Sorry for the confusion.


That's perfectly OK. As to your question, perhaps you could go back and read my earlier posts. You also might consider going to see TwoSetViolin during their next world tour. Or even your local youth symphony. You may be surprised at how good they are.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

fluteman said:


> That's perfectly OK. As to your question, perhaps you could go back and read my earlier posts. You also might consider going to see TwoSetViolin during their next world tour. Or even your local youth symphony. You may be surprised at how good they are.


I know TwoSetViolin well from their videos, but I've never seen them in concert. I suspect they do have a significant young audience. My daughter played in several youth symphonies, and some are indeed quite good.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Strange Magic said:


> How old were you upon first hearing it?


I was an adult the first time I heard it, and Britten's Young Person's Guide. Didn't have much exposure to Classical as a child.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Sid James said:


> We know that many young people are accessing classical online. As regards this forum, all you can do is say your opinion, even if you feel its different. The worst thing for a forum like this is if everyone started parroting everybody else. We need a variety of opinions here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not to be a snob or a Debbie downer, but I believe that article is including essentially anything that's instrumental as classical. Virtually every artist listed would be described as "crossover", "contemporary instrumental", "electronic", "film", etc.. I don't think any of the listed artists would be remotely popular amongst the TC membership.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

BachIsBest said:


> Not to be a snob or a Debbie downer, but I believe that article is including essentially anything that's instrumental as classical. Virtually every artist listed would be described as "crossover", "contemporary instrumental", "electronic", "film", etc.. I don't think any of the listed artists would be remotely popular amongst the TC membership.


I'm not sure that's true, but if it is, so what? The point of the article is to outline how young people are accessing, or could access classical music via a broad definition of the term which doesn't exclude the traditional canon, but exemplifies a wider range of musics.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Caroline said:


> Aptly spoken. I do think that many posters are sensitive to this and endeavor to walk a fine line between posting information, and subjective interpretation, while presenting information in a way that does not seek to convince others. 😊


Yes it is about interpretation. Even if the facts are the same, inevitably we'll all interpret them differently. Same with experiences. On the internet, its easy for complex issues to become polarised. Reality is never that simple.



> Fully agree about the unhelpfulness of assigning blame and that political organization and will is required. People who sell music could also be instrumental (no pun!) in this. From a US perspective, with an arguably decrepit school system, parents need to have a role in assessing and changing what and how their children are educated.
> 
> CM would also benefit from a public relations initiative, which could be part of driving public interest and thus political intervention.


I think that there are a number of ways of looking at this. There are various levels of interaction, if you like, with classical music. They can be boiled down to something like this. Listeners who:

Listen to recordings
Go to concerts
Can perform music
Within these categories there can be variation, e.g. listeners and concertgoers can range from casual to serious, performers can be amateur or professional.

I don't think we've got too much of a problem with the first category now - thanks to digital technology, classical is more widely disseminated than its ever been. I think that the second category needs maintenance, but at this point things generally aren't too bad.

I think the third category is the problem area, and that's where my point about equity comes in. I think we're beyond mere public relations. Substantive changes need to happen. In the UK there's been statistics coming out for some time suggesting that most children who learn music go to private schools. Its not new, but there is growing realisation among educators of the importance of access to music to by all children. I mean as part of their general education. There is no one size fits all solution, but its good to know that there's awareness of the problem.



BachIsBest said:


> Not to be a snob or a Debbie downer, but I believe that article is including essentially anything that's instrumental as classical. Virtually every artist listed would be described as "crossover", "contemporary instrumental", "electronic", "film", etc.. I don't think any of the listed artists would be remotely popular amongst the TC membership.


There's a few contemporary composers who are taken seriously enough at TC (e.g. like Philip Glass, Michael Nyman, Steve Reich).









BBC Sounds Mixes - Classical Focus, Minimalist Greats


The best modern and classical composers to get you through your study session.




www.bbc.co.uk





Also quite a few of the most famous composers - e.g. Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Rachmaninov, Ravel, etc.









BBC Sounds Mixes - Classical Focus, Heads down, Thumbs up


The best selection of Classical music for you to focus on.




www.bbc.co.uk





The main takeaway from the article is that many young people will listen to classical - or various offshoots of it - on their ipods. I think it might be a trend away from the stigma associated with classical among young people. In any case, the classical industry is taking heed of this sort of data to attract young people, with change in repertoire to accept what was previously thought as too lowbrow (e.g. orchestras performing film, video game and television music, opera companies putting on productions of musicals).


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

Extracurricular music lessons offered at schools can be beneficial, but the idea that children should be _required _to learn to play instruments (or learn music theory) at a public institution is tyrannical. The amount of unnecessary things children are forced to do should be minimized.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

mmsbls said:


> I know TwoSetViolin well from their videos, but I've never seen them in concert. I suspect they do have a significant young audience. My daughter played in several youth symphonies, and some are indeed quite good.


Well then, you've answered your own question. So long as our education system includes instruction in the classics -- music, art, literature, poetry and theater -- they will always have a place in our culture. Occasionally, a classic work, or something based on one, will rise to mass popularity. But most often that will be the exception. It would be silly to expect anything more, without a major investment in better education. Unfortunately, in the USA currently we are moving in the opposite direction.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

science said:


> Most young people just aren't the market for art music. Nothing that rewards careful attention is.
> 
> But at some point they are too old to go clubbing, some of them discover that the pop hits of their youth do not reward attention, some of them want to explore the world's cultural heritage, and some of them want to enjoy something classy, and then their white heads join the others.
> 
> I don't know that people will always be listening to Bach and Beethoven as much as we do now, but about 5% of the population (skewing older) will always be interested in something more complex and layered than what the other 95% is content with.



I think most people _generally_ aren't into art music. 

I've always wondered if going after the purported zero-attention-span "casual" young listener is a bit misguided rather than going after what you might call the "art-school-kid" type. Not that you have to, or should, do one or the other, but it's always going to be hard to get someone with no interest in art to listen to _anything_, versus someone who is already interested in music as art. 

anyway this is just saying that the JACK Quartet should play Xenakis as an opener for like, Merzbow or some other noise artist


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

fbjim said:


> I think most people _generally_ aren't into art music.
> 
> I've always wondered if going after the purported zero-attention-span "casual" young listener is a bit misguided rather than going after what you might call the "art-school-kid" type. Not that you have to, or should, do one or the other, but it's always going to be hard to get someone with no interest in art to listen to _anything_, versus someone who is already interested in music as art.
> 
> anyway this is just saying that the JACK Quartet should play Xenakis as an opener for like, Merzbow or some other noise artist


Why did I occasionally listen to only a few pieces of CM for several years before I really started delving in five years ago?

A: My short child attention span hindered me. However, my interest in works like Tchaikovsky 6 and the Mozart Horn Concertos laid the groundwork for me delving into CM later and not a popular genre.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Forster said:


> I'm not sure that's true, but if it is, so what? The point of the article is to outline how young people are accessing, or could access classical music via a broad definition of the term which doesn't exclude the traditional canon, but exemplifies a wider range of musics.


They are of course free to listen to the music they wish to, but if the article was using a different definition of classical music than what the discussion in the thread was about, then this is surely an important thing to point out.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Sid James said:


> There's a few contemporary composers who are taken seriously enough at TC (e.g. like Philip Glass, Michael Nyman, Steve Reich).


Yes, sorry. I shouldn't have been so absolute. Reich would be considered classical music by most, my issue was more with most of the other artists.



Sid James said:


> BBC Sounds Mixes - Classical Focus, Minimalist Greats
> 
> 
> The best modern and classical composers to get you through your study session.
> ...


We may have different takeaways, but my takeaway was that young people will listen to some crossover artists that play pop-song sized segments of instrumental music.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I think people are confusing "young" with "general audience" here. There's a reason bargain record bins across the country are filled with Arthur Fiedler, and it wasn't because the "youth" were buying his records in droves.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

BachIsBest said:


> They are of course free to listen to the music they wish to, but if the article was using a different definition of classical music than what the discussion in the thread was about, then this is surely an important thing to point out.


Well rather obviously, you don't make "classical music" more appealing to young people by making the term so broad as to include the pop they already find appealing.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

BachIsBest said:


> They are of course free to listen to the music they wish to, but if the article was using a different definition of classical music than what the discussion in the thread was about, then this is surely an important thing to point out.


The definition of CM in this thread is pretty much the works of canonical composers from ~1700-~1950, perhaps without Modernist composers at all. When we talk about CM cultural heritage in this thread, most of us don't care about minor composers like Ferdinand Ries or JC Bach, or non-canonical modern/contemporary composers like Xenakis or even Williams.

Posters mainly care about the later Dvorak String Quartets, the Mendelssohn symphonies, the Mozart Piano Concertos-- stuff like that. _The classics._


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

ORigel said:


> The definition of CM in this thread is pretty much the works of canonical composers from ~1700-~1950


Is it? Is that what the Hutchinson book's definition is?


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

The American Guild of Organists and its chapters are doing what we can to introduce young people to the organ. Our local chapter has an annual event called Pedal, Pipes & Pizza, where we invite any student to attend and get a glimpse of what the organ is all about, also a chance to play the instrument and receive some one on one instruction with one of the areas leading professional organists. 

Those events usually take 2 to 3 hours depending on how many students have signed up to attend. 

Other chapters across the US have similar events. AGO national has POE - Pipe Organ Encounter events, too. 

The national AGO organization is offering one year free membership to the guild for any youth age 30 and under. That offer is good through June 30, 2022. Our local chapter is doing that one better and includes anyone of any age to receive one year free membership as well.

The unfortunate thing is that as we organists retire, there are fewer people willing or able to fill vacancies ... I leapt at the chance when I was 13, loved it, and have continued to ply at this professions for 61+ years. Still love doing this now as I did when I was 13.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Forster said:


> Is it? Is that what the Hutchinson book's definition is?


Hutchinson's book is almost irrelevant to the direction of this thread. Unless some of you actually purchased it? If Hutchinson contributed to this thread beyond the copy-pasted press release OP, we might be using his definition. From reading the descriptions of some of his books on Amazon, Hutchinson may go both Big Names and underrated non white male composers.

I am basing the definition on the apparently conservative tastes of some of the posters on this thread. The debate over whether CM promotes aristocratic and bouigese values confirms that many posters want children to get into the Baroque to Romantic Period classical canon, not just any music classified as CM.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Merl said:


> As a teacher, I've been doing this for years, introducing classical music heavily into my music lessons. However, there's little interest in classical pieces amongst children these days. The kids don't dislike it (far from it) but* they seem to like the throwaway nature of autotuned pop pap more readily. It may be formulaic crud but it's what they seem to get hooked on and desire more readily.* Obviously some will branch out and make their way to CM eventually but it's getting harder and harder to convince kids that CM is valid and not music for dinosaurs, these days.


I think there's understandable reasons for this. Perhaps every generation goes through this. What I mean is, the 40s pop standards gave way to early rock of the 50s, then later rock and the more artistic pop of the late 60s, then disco, then Grunge, then the pop pap which is quite difficult to figure out as to its youthful meanings. 

So what's the trend that I see? In each transition, the younger generation doesn't want their music to sound old fashioned, old hat, corny. The kiss of death within peer groups or even imagined peer groups (aspirations). Also they seem to want music that is less and less obvious to follow and memorize and get tired of. 'Makes sense.

Who really knows (with so many years of variables and change and unsuspected innovations (tech)), but we can generalize.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

The Gay 90s was replaced by Tin Pan Alley, jazz is co-opted in the roaring 20s and then the pop standards of the 30s and 40s. To me it looks like the same sequence and phenomenon, but it might just be that I'm looking for it?


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> I think there's understandable reasons for this. Perhaps every generation goes through this. What I mean is, the 40s pop standards gave way to early rock of the 50s, then later rock and the more artistic pop of the late 60s, then disco, then Grunge, then the pop pap which is quite difficult to figure out as to its youthful meanings.
> 
> So what's the trend that I see? In each transition, *the younger generation doesn't want their music to sound old fashioned, old hat, corny. * The kiss of death within peer groups or even imagined peer groups (aspirations). Also they seem to want music that is less and less obvious to follow and memorize and get tired of. 'Makes sense.
> 
> Who really knows (with so many years of variables and change and unsuspected innovations (tech)), but we can generalize.


This is true - to an extent.

My mom had (and played) albums that were decidedly "old fart" music, yet I'm still very fond of SOME of it, and still turn my nose up at some of it. Mom, not being a musician (nor was my dad), still had a rather diverse and eclectic collection of LPs.

There were Broadway cast albums (Gypsy, Oliver, etc.), soundtracks (I loved Around the World in 80 Days, but despised Picnic), 101 Strings (yuck!), Herb Alpert , Frank Sinatra (yuck), Julie Christie, 1812 Overture.

My mom used to tell the story of a 5 year old me sitting in the sandbox belting out Ethel Merman.

The point is that these were normalized things in my childhood, the music from all different genres. It wasn't forced on me, but simply part of a "normal" household. Some I loved, some I didn't.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

As with many things, it depends on why you listen and what you hope to get out of music.

Someone into clubbing doesn't want to listen to old music because music to them is part of an aesthetic that they want to keep up with the times, and to be fashionable.

Some art school kids, meanwhile, might not be interested because they want what's at the furthest cutting edge of the avant-garde, the stuff nobody is listening to.

Most people obviously fall between these categories, but you can't simply break it down into "kids aren't into old music because they're young".




By the way, I think pops classical in the 50s/60s, if anything, wasn't replaced by rock- it was the kind of stuff middle-aged, middle-class people listened to and was replaced by pop and adult-contemporary.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

pianozach said:


> This is true - to an extent.
> 
> My mom had (and played) albums that were decidedly "old fart" music, yet I'm still very fond of SOME of it, and still turn my nose up at some of it. Mom, not being a musician (nor was my dad), still had a rather diverse and eclectic collection of LPs.
> 
> ...


What's not true?
How does it get forced on anyone? It's always on in the background?
Broadway is a separate category, I think, because there's so much song writing talent, with their ears searching for what's new and trendy.
I'm talking about teens of each generation being *somehow* *predictably* different from each prior generation.

I remember Sinatra singing so accurately. It sounded so accurate and yet so natural. I never went back to see whether he sang the strict note durations from the song sheets, but it might have been just a style that sounded so disciplined (his attitude was larger than life, as they say).
I like the theme from Picnic. A clever use of harmony.
Julie Christie singing 'Round Midnight. wow! Such control and emotion!
Mantovani was my father-in-law's favorite, for unwinding after work.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

fbjim said:


> As with many things, it depends on why you listen and what you hope to get out of music.
> 
> Someone into clubbing doesn't want to listen to old music because music to them is part of an aesthetic that they want to keep up with the times, and to be fashionable.
> 
> ...


What I remember is, older folks buying their first good-sounding system and phonographs, and then buying a few albums to try out the sound. Some recent songs they knew before, fully orchestrated for the sound experience. And of course the sound effect records and the comedy routine albums.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> What's not true?
> How does it get forced on anyone? It's always on in the background?
> Broadway is a separate category, I think, because there's so much song writing talent, with their ears searching for what's new and trendy.
> I'm talking about teens of each generation being *somehow* *predictably* different from each prior generation.
> ...


*Sinatra* had style. I'll assume he learned that vocal accuracy because he started out singing in the Big Bands of Harry James and Tommy Dorsey, musical tyrannical micromanagers, where every note was planned in minute detail, including the vocalists. That laid-back thing was part of that accuracy . . . perfect phrasings, well-thought-out backbeating. Sinatra, by the time he signed as a solo artist had his artistry well-crafted. 

Funny how I really didn't learn to appreciate until fairly recently what a great musicality he had, right up through the 60s. I still can't stand "My Way" though.

But the one I REALLY love was *Bing Crosby*. Now THERE was some extraordinary accuracy. You can hear that from his stuff from the 1920s right through the end of the Big Band era. An absolute monster of accuracy. Even his crooning after that was "perfect". He lost that musicality in the 1960s because he didn't really adapt well to the "new" music, nor the new technology used to record it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> Extracurricular music lessons offered at schools can be beneficial, but the idea that children should be _required _to learn to play instruments (or learn music theory) at a public institution is tyrannical. The amount of unnecessary things children are forced to do should be minimized.


You really shouldn't worry, then. Relax. Its not a matter of them being required to learn it, because most children in state schools don't get much of an opportunity to learn music in the first place.

Incidentally, by performance I didn't necessarily mean playing, but singing. Back in the 16th century, the composer William Byrd said that "since singing is so good a thing, I wish all men would learne to sing." Today, most children aren't even taught to sing and hold a note, and that's way before they might get to an instrument. I wonder, have we progressed that much since Byrd's time?



BachIsBest said:


> Yes, sorry. I shouldn't have been so absolute. Reich would be considered classical music by most, my issue was more with most of the other artists.


I don't have your concerns about the composers I mentioned, or others on those podcasts like John Adams, Eric Whitacre, John Williams, Ennio Morricone or Einaudi. One thing is that they all trained as classical composers.

I think that many young people aren't nearly as sectarian or self conscious about music as previous generations where. Basically, the categories we might argue about here matter little to them.



> We may have different takeaways, but my takeaway was that young people will listen to some crossover artists that play pop-song sized segments of instrumental music.


They obviously do listen to those, among other things. I don't see that as a negative but as a positive, since its obviously being harnessed by the classical industry to generate income.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Sid James said:


> You really shouldn't worry, then. Relax. Its not a matter of them being required to learn it, because most children in state schools don't get much of an opportunity to learn music in the first place.
> 
> Incidentally, by performance I didn't necessarily mean playing, but singing. Back in the 16th century, the composer William Byrd said that "since singing is so good a thing, I wish all men would learne to sing." Today, most children aren't even taught to sing and hold a note, and that's way before they might get to an instrument. I wonder, have we progressed that much since Byrd's time?


True.

For a few semesters I taught after school chorus classes an a local elementary school administered by the local Park District. Parents had to pony up a registration fee to the Parks, just as they would have to for a class in painting, folk dance, or other things.

It went well for a while but the parents were actually way more meddling than I would have expected, so I quit.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Sid James said:


> I don't have your concerns about the composers I mentioned, or others on those podcasts like John Adams, Eric Whitacre, John Williams, Ennio Morricone or Einaudi. One thing is that they all trained as classical composers.
> 
> I think that many young people aren't nearly as sectarian or self conscious about music as previous generations where. Basically, the categories we might argue about here matter little to them.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying this is good or bad, but when people here talk about the decline in classical music, my impression is they just aren't talking about a decline in listeners of someone like Einaudi. This is the disconnect I see with the BBC article.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> As a firm believer in early imprinting in the arts, I would recommend a hodge-podge of different approaches to introducing CM and the young to each other. Not in any order: exposing them to film/video soundtracks and suggesting that CM is or can be a place or way to further explore the sort of soundtrack music they really like. I loved as a kid the Richard Rodgers music for _Victory at Sea--_very stirring, and I wanted to hear more of such.
> 
> Pointing out that music they may hear in ads or as intro music for TV shows, etc., with examples, may be taken from CM--an example is the intro to Judge Judy episodes where we hear the opening 4 notes of Beethoven's 5th.
> 
> Playing for kids in the classroom bits of tone poems or ballet scores and asking them whether they hear in the music a thunderstorm (Beethoven, Grofe) and who did the more convincing job. _Nightride and Sunrise_ suggests itself; also Villa-Lobos BB #2, more Grofe (_On the Trail);_ which Rachmaninoff preludes and Etudes Tableaux sound the most like bells ringing. Hard to go wrong with _The Nutcracker_ or _Peter and the Wolf. _Respighi offers many examples. It will take with those predisposed for whatever reasons to begin to like CM.


Imagine how boring (irrelevant) or off-putting that would be to a typical 10 or 12 year old boy. We're the adults, we need to trick them! We know a little about what makes them tick. We might remember our own reactions at that tender age. Liking the simple yet poignant song Nowhere Man, Lennon, much more than any LvB symphony. (But what did we know..)


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Luchesi said:


> Imagine how boring (irrelevant) or off-putting that would be to a typical 10 or 12 year old boy. We're the adults, we need to trick them! We know a little about what makes them tick. We might remember our own reactions at that tender age. Liking the simple yet poignant song Nowhere Man, Lennon, much more than any LvB symphony. (But what did we know..)


I was that 12 year old. The march from _Love for Three Oranges _was the theme music for a radio crime/detective series I heard on the radio. We know about the Lone Ranger and the _William Tell Overture--_it's now a legend among those old enough to remember. I recall my mother putting on the 78 of the Polovtsian Dances and the LP of Ravel's _Daphnis, Suite #2. _As you suggest, I am vividly remembering my own reactions at that tender age and much before. Powerful imprinting.

Were you raised in a musical household? I wonder.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

I think the best you can do is expose young kids to classical pieces that are short and easy to listen to (for example beautiful or catchy melodies). If 95% of adults don’t have the patience for cm an eight year old definitely won’t have it either for a symphony


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

EvaBaron said:


> I think the best you can do is expose young kids to classical pieces that are short and easy to listen to (for example beautiful or catchy melodies). If 95% of adults don’t have the patience for cm an eight year old definitely won’t have it either for a symphony


Or tell the kids they're just not old enough. That motivates.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

pianozach said:


> True.
> 
> For a few semesters I taught after school chorus classes an a local elementary school administered by the local Park District. Parents had to pony up a registration fee to the Parks, just as they would have to for a class in painting, folk dance, or other things.
> 
> It went well for a while but the parents were actually way more meddling than I would have expected, so I quit.


That's a bit of a shame, but you can do nothing more than try your best.



BachIsBest said:


> I'm not saying this is good or bad, but when people here talk about the decline in classical music, my impression is they just aren't talking about a decline in listeners of someone like Einaudi. This is the disconnect I see with the BBC article.


Put it this way, there's been talk of a decline for ages, but classical music has never gotten to the stage of entirely sinking. I don't see a major cause for concern in terms of the number of people listening to it. The concert format is changing, and I see it more as adapting to new areas of demand and not as a decline. The old format that we've had since the 19th century is still continuing. I think the real problem is with equity, in terms of socio-economic disparities involving access to music in the education system (as part of general education).


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## Dimboukas (Oct 12, 2011)

Ban Regietheater and allow alcohol drinking during.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Sid James said:


> That's a bit of a shame, but you can do nothing more than try your best.
> 
> 
> 
> Put it this way, there's been talk of a decline for ages, but classical music has never gotten to the stage of entirely sinking. I don't see a major cause for concern in terms of the number of people listening to it. The concert format is changing, and I see it more as adapting to new areas of demand and not as a decline. The old format that we've had since the 19th century is still continuing. I think the real problem is with equity, in terms of socio-economic disparities involving access to music in the education system (as part of general education).


David Hurwitz did a recent video on this. He thinks:
--CM has a very small audience of mostly older people. The CM industry should pander to older people
--The absolute number of CM listeners is slowly growing due to population growth
--Governments will subsidize CM, but the CM musicians will never be satisfied (Hurwitz claims they're basically entitled brats)
--The industry will adapt to new times as it as in the past, more or less. In the late 90s, he relates, the CM industry was creating portal sites to major orchestras that were so unwieldy they kept crashing. Now major orchestras do their streaming on their own sites, and have audiences. He says this will endanger smaller orchestras, because why go to concerts when you can stream the best orchestras in the world? But that doesn't really matter, Hurwitz says.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I can understand what Hurwitz is saying and the reasons for the conclusions he's making, but what do you think about it?


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Sid James said:


> I can understand what Hurwitz is saying and the reasons for the conclusions he's making, but what do you think about it?


As long as a lot of the reference recordings are still readily availiable in the future, I'm fine with the vision Hurwitz describes. If it turns out to be true. I really hope middle aged and seniors can get into CM in large enough numbers that the CM recording industry doesn't collapse.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Dimboukas said:


> Ban Regietheater and allow alcohol drinking during.


Counter-proposal: allow regietheater but have it done in front of drunken patrons.


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## Bkeske (Feb 27, 2019)

After reading though much of this, my take…

To be honest, I really don’t see this as being very different than what it was in the past. 

At 64, I grew up in the 60’s-early 70’s in terms of my ‘youth’. My father was an Architect, I was was a young budding visual artist, sent to various private classes in my youth. My sister learned/was taught and performed ballet, which I was fascinated by, and probably my biggest introduction to classical music.

None of my family members were musicians, or took any instrument/musical training. There were no ‘pure’ classical LP’s in our home, the closest being Peter and The Wolf, which I was fascinated by and played a lot as a young child. In general, my interest in music was much the same as others; it was simply in the home first and foremost. But music wasn’t ‘pushed’ on us in any way, it just attracted me.

In terms of ‘the arts’, and in comparison to my other friends, classmates, and associates, I was an ‘outlier’. They knew nothing of architecture, going to an art museum, studying the visual arts, or attending ballet practices or performances. I’m not sure it was any more popular then as it is now for the vast majority. There is little doubt that my ultimate interest in ‘classical’ music has a lot to do with my artistic upbringing. But my family didn’t go to the symphony growing up, only to my sisters ballet performances where the music was recorded. The closest to live classical music I was exposed to was the organ and choir in our Lutheran church. Which I did enjoy as a kid. But that still did not make me interested in having or listening to classical LP’s at the time.

The idea of ‘changing’ something to make classical music more interesting to young people just seems an exercise in futility. I don’t think it is something you can force another to like. I don’t think there is small handful of reasons people become classical music fans. It happens for a variety of reasons that cannot be ‘put into a box’. What it comes down to, IMO, is the general artistic interest of the individual child. That is what we should fear losing the development of, but that is either ‘inside of us’, or not. Although I was raised in an ‘artistic’ family, not all the siblings became artists, and none of us musicians. I’m the only classical music fan of them all, or for that matter, serious fan of music period. Luckily there are enough of us individuals to keep it from dying off completely. And ‘popular’ classical music does not sound appealing to me in the least.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

If we didn't have an educational background in math or physics as a youngster, would we be interested in higher math or physics when we became adults? I don't know. This has probably been studied in depth.. for math and science.

In this regard, I think CM is 'higher' music.

I guess my piano students could be called 'outliers'. Those labels are very important to kids, for what about 5 years? But to them it seems like a long time.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

ORigel said:


> As long as a lot of the reference recordings are still readily availiable in the future, I'm fine with the vision Hurwitz describes. If it turns out to be true. I really hope middle aged and seniors can get into CM in large enough numbers that the CM recording industry doesn't collapse.


I see. The conservative approach - keeping things as they are - is a pragmatic one, at least when applied to the USA. Hurwitz has talked about how the financial bubble started to burst in the '90's. With recessions in 2008 and now with Covid, its obvious that the way forward will continue to involve difficulty because of constant change (especially economic and technological). Radical change isn't advisable in these circumstances, but at the other extreme is the danger of complacency. Longer term, there has to be nourishment and renewal for continued growth.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Sid James said:


> I see. The conservative approach - keeping things as they are - is a pragmatic one, at least when applied to the USA. Hurwitz has talked about how the financial bubble started to burst in the '90's. With recessions in 2008 and now with Covid, its obvious that the way forward will continue to involve difficulty because of constant change (especially economic and technological). Radical change isn't advisable in these circumstances, but at the other extreme is the danger of complacency. Longer term, there has to be nourishment and renewal for continued growth.


I might be wrong, but I don't think young people will be interested in CM without a few years of the experience of making music. 
We're investing less and less time and money in this foundation for them. Educators, parents and the kids themselves don't think it's an unfortunate situation. Someday we'll all have very capable virtual reality.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Sid James said:


> I see. The conservative approach - keeping things as they are - is a pragmatic one, at least when applied to the USA. Hurwitz has talked about how the financial bubble started to burst in the '90's. With recessions in 2008 and now with Covid, its obvious that the way forward will continue to involve difficulty because of constant change (especially economic and technological). Radical change isn't advisable in these circumstances, but at the other extreme is the danger of complacency. Longer term, there has to be nourishment and renewal for continued growth.


I think our goal should be keeping the CM industry alive, as opposed to making it popular, since I firmly believe CM does not appeal to more than a minority of listeners (and I don't know of an efficient way to fix that).


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

There's no need to make CM anymore appealing to young people than it already is. The industry's focus must continue to be the audience that is already there—we are the ones buying the albums and paying for concerts, not "young people". The audience for CM has always been relatively small and this will continue to be the case.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Luchesi said:


> I might be wrong, but I don't think young people will be interested in CM without a few years of the experience of making music.
> We're investing less and less time and money in this foundation for them. Educators, parents and the kids themselves don't think it's an unfortunate situation. Someday we'll all have very capable virtual reality.


There's definitely a general problem with equity, in terms of access to music education of some sort (even at the general level). Even though that's fairly easy to agree on, the solution isn't so easy.



ORigel said:


> I think our goal should be keeping the CM industry alive, as opposed to making it popular, since I firmly believe CM does not appeal to more than a minority of listeners (and I don't know of an efficient way to fix that).


Keeping things going is fine, but basically in terms of the most conservative approach, two main results are conceivable:
1. Things stay the same, but its more or less a situation of stagnation.
2. Things get worse as there's not enough people to replace an increasingly aged audience.

I think that it makes sense to take on a low risk approach in the USA, given the problems in the classical industry there which occurred over the past few decades. At the same time, a little risk can go a long way, if its managed properly. I think it makes sense to try and aim for something even slightly better in the future than more of the same or a worse result.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Is there a radio station that plays a diverse range of genres? Pop, Classical, Country, New Age, Punk, Progressive, Renaissance, Disco, Baroque, American Songbook, soundtracks, New Wave, Romantic, Alternative, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, choral, indigenous, Indian, Big Band, electronica, ballet, Bop, salsa, etc, etc, etc. 

Why not?


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## Bkeske (Feb 27, 2019)

pianozach said:


> Is there a radio station that plays a diverse range of genres? Pop, Classical, Country, New Age, Punk, Progressive, Renaissance, Disco, Baroque, American Songbook, soundtracks, New Wave, Romantic, Alternative, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, choral, indigenous, Indian, Big Band, electronica, ballet, Bop, salsa, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> Why not?


Because we each have our own belief in aesthetics. A radio station would go broke trying to please everyone, or, have few to no listeners. All those various forms are out there, especially with the advent of online stations.

I listen to a pretty broad variety of music, but would say typically 80%+ is ’classical’ today, in all its variations. For me, the next most desirable genre is jazz and folk/folk rock. But I delve into many other genre as well.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

OK. I just think that a station that played so much unknown music might attract people with its *"Wow, listen to THAT - that is so cool and different"* factor.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Unfortunately radio isn't much of a thing anymore especially for young people. The equivilent might be playlists shared by friends or whatever Spotify or Youtube suggests.


I found this excerpt from a magazine interesting.



> What _does_ work, then? My evidence is admittedly anecdotal, but when I ask people what got them interested in classical music, they answer with things like: cartoons, movies, television shows, commercials, watching a live performance, learning an instrument. One thing that all these answers have in common is that they are all about experiencing classical music as music. Some other people mention getting interested through gateways like classical-esque sounds in the Beatles, or movie and video game soundtracks—though the division between “movie music” and “_real _music” has always been blurry (Shostakovich and Copland wrote for movies, after all), and there’s a whole scholarly subfield called ludomusicology devoted to the study of video game music. In any case, for most people I talked to, their interest was piqued not by being _told_ that they should like the music, but by hearing music itself.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

*@fbjim: *Excellent post. It would be interesting and possibly useful to create a video of as many examples as possible of where CM is or has been used in the wider culture. I offered before the fact that TV's Judge Judy's theme music are the opening notes of LVB's 5th symphony, the long history of the William Tell overture with The Lone Ranger radio program, and the March from Proko's 3 Oranges as theme for a radio crime drama. In addition there would many dozen ad background music examples, the Broadway musical Kismet, and film references; Proko's Alexander Nevsky only one example. Elvira Madigan Mozart PC reference. Popular songs that have mined CM melodies (Rach's Full Moon and Empty Arms). All embedded in the non-CM context This video to be shown where possible in schools or on public television or YouTube, with some serious advertising that People Will Love It! A modern-day Disney Fantasia, but more cool.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> *@fbjim: *Excellent post. It would be interesting and possibly useful to create a video of as many examples as possible of where CM is or has been used in the wider culture. I offered before the fact that TV's Judge Judy's theme music are the opening notes of LVB's 5th symphony, the long history of the William Tell overture with The Lone Ranger radio program, and the March from Proko's 3 Oranges as theme for a radio crime drama. In addition there would many dozen ad background music examples, the Broadway musical Kismet, and film references; Proko's Alexander Nevsky only one example. Elvira Madigan Mozart PC reference. Popular songs that have mined CM melodies (Rach's Full Moon and Empty Arms). All embedded in the non-CM context This video to be shown where possible in schools or on public television or YouTube, with some serious advertising that People Will Love It! A modern-day Disney Fantasia, but more cool.


Pretty much MOST of the music for *Kismet* was adapted from several pieces composed by *Alexander Borodin*.

The 1959 animated Disney film *Sleeping Beauty* liberally used music from *Tchaikovsky's* *Sleeping Beauty ballet*.

Way back in the 1960s the closing theme of the Huntley-Brinkley Report was the second movement of *Beethoven's Symphony #9.*


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

I think motivating more young people to play an instrument would be a good start. Playing an instrument increases the chances to get in touch with classical music (generally spoken - depending on the instrument). 

I hope this opinion wasn't already stated in this thread, I didn't read all 12 pages yet...


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

The question of "Organize performances for communities that might not otherwise get that experience" is an interesting one. Has anyone who plays an instrument or knows people who play instruments done this? I certainly think there are programs where you might be able to, e.g. play chamber music for youth centers or schools in areas which don't have the funding for proper arts programs, for instance.


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## Andrew Kenneth (Feb 17, 2018)

In the eighties the dutch sunday night talk show "RUR" commenced to the tune of the 2nd act intro of "Die Walkure".


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Has anyone considered Classical Music "conditioning"?

Like, you know, putting out cake and ice cream while playing Classical, 
and putting out vegetable plates while playing Hip Hop?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I’m coming off a great success with my 9-year old grandniece - _A Midsummer Night’s Dream_ to music by Mendelssohn. It’s her third ballet, following _The Nutcracker_ (twice) and _Coppelia._ Before the performance we went down to the orchestra pit to identify the instruments. Several of the musicians warming up waved “hi.” 

I know not everyone has access to live ballet, but there are videos. I purchased The Royal Ballet’s box set (for me), which includes a range of ballets from _Giselle_ to contemporary works, most, but not all, set to classical scores. And there are times when good camerawork helps. 

I’m now thinking of an orchestral concert video of encore pieces.


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