# How would you classify the music of Ligeti and Penderecki? (contemporary classical)



## ligecki (Oct 5, 2013)

Hello everyone! I'm new. :tiphat:

I am seeking advice on how to classify the music by composers Ligeti and Penderecki.

I am writing a dissertation referencing the music of these two composers. Obviously categorising any type of music is problematic, and I of course understand how even two composers of the same "period" differ wildly.

However there are certain similarities between both composers (bar "late" Penderecki). They both use graphic notation and extended techniques to "break" the "boundaries" of conventional notation. They emphasise texture to create a new musical language (proto-spectral music?). 

What is the best way to classify these composers?

Contemporary classical music?
Western Art music?
Post-War Avant-Garde (which is my favoured term atm)

Thanks


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

As far as I know, a lot of Penderecki's music fits the label of "neo-romanticism," I don't know many of his works though.

The music from Ligeti's first period is rather nationalistic, second period utilised a technique he developed called _micropolyphony,_ and his later works are slightly more confusing in terms of what to label it (Aleazk would probably know).

20th century classical music works fine, just as contemporary classical and modern classical describe kinda the same thing. Western Art Music is pretty much just another name for western classical music. Post-War Avant-Garde works as well but all it does it narrow it down to...well "avant-garde" music after 1945.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Why not just call it 'the music of ligeti' or if a piece sounds similar 'similar to the style of ligeti'? The same goes for Penderecki. I guess you could call it avant garde if you really wanted to label it but that doesn't describe the music itself at all does it?


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## ligecki (Oct 5, 2013)

Jobis said:


> Why not just call it 'the music of ligeti' or if a piece sounds similar 'similar to the style of ligeti'? The same goes for Penderecki. I guess you could call it avant garde if you really wanted to label it but that doesn't describe the music itself at all does it?


Very true, but i feel "like ligeti" faces a similar problem. Really i'm trying to show how this music works in popular film. Although i will use "the music of ligeti and penderecki" as a subtitle, or perhaps now as the main title now that you mention it

Thanks


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## ligecki (Oct 5, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> As far as I know, a lot of Penderecki's music fits the label of "neo-romanticism," I don't know many of his works though.
> 
> The music from Ligeti's first period is rather nationalistic, second period utilised a technique he developed called _micropolyphony,_ and his later works are slightly more confusing in terms of what to label it (Aleazk would probably know).
> 
> 20th century classical music works fine, just as contemporary classical and modern classical describe kinda the same thing. Western Art Music is pretty much just another name for western classical music. Post-War Avant-Garde works as well but all it does it narrow it down to...well "avant-garde" music after 1945.


I would love to use the term "micropolyphony" but the problem is i'm also looking at ligeti's music ricercata, odd i know but it's about how these "new" works are used in popular film.

Thanks for the suggestions.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Modernism is the general term for post-Romantic music from Debussy up through Ligeti and (early) Penderecki. Minimalist music, polystylistic music (a la Schnittke), and Neoromantic music (like the current Penderecki) are generally considered "Postmodernist".


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I could go in a several posts disgresion about this topic, but I feel that's not exactly what you are looking for. You seem more interested in the way these composers' music was used in film.
If you are looking for a single word for characterizing the music by Ligeti and Penderecki that was used in film, that simply is not going to work because they are completely different composers, and also even in Ligeti, Atmospheres and Musica Ricercata belong to different periods of his output.
The only general term you can use is post-war avant-garde/experimental music.
If you want to be more specific you will need to analyze the music and the composers individually.
Despite a superficial similarity, the micropolyphony music of Ligeti in the 60's and 70's is very different to the music of early Penderecki.
As you say, Penderecki used graphic notation, and his music is textural, but more related to the noise world, that's why all those extended techniques.
Ligeti's only serious use of graphic notation was in the piece Volumina for organ. He considered graphic notation "a quite stupid idea", in his own words.
The pieces used by Kubrick in 2001 (Atmospheres, Requiem, Lux Aeterna), all use very detailed standard notation. Ligeti's music is textural, but more related to the timbric manipulation of dense sound masses in a precise way. Graphic notation leaves some things up to the performer. Ligeti writes all of his notes in a precise way. He does not use a lot of extended techniques. Most of his micropolyphony music consist in the superposition of a lot different tuplets played by the different voices (dozens of voices; for example each violin in the violin section has its own part). The way in which these voices interact, appear and disappear, is the main tool for the timbric effects.
There are a lot of conceptual differences between the composers as you can see.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Modernism is the general term for post-Romantic music from Debussy up through Ligeti and (early) Penderecki. Minimalist music, polystylistic music (a la Schnittke), and Neoromantic music (like the current Penderecki) are generally considered "Postmodernist".


I came here to say this.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

ligecki said:


> ...
> I am seeking advice on how to classify the music by composers Ligeti and Penderecki.
> What is the best way to classify these composers?
> 
> ...


Hello, ligecki.

The music of Ligeti and (early) Penderecki - especially their output from the late 1950s & early 1960s - has been placed under an 'umbrella' term of _sonorism_ or _textural music_.

I believe that Iannis Xenakis is considered the first composer (or rather a Xenakis work from '56/'57) to introduce this notion of textural music. There's quite a number of others, too, besides Ligeti & Penderecki who sought alternative paths to strict serialism and also wished to move forward into other areas than retro-active tonal/Romantic music. Around 1959 through 1961, composers as different from each other as Giacinto Scelsi and Friedrich Cerha each formed their own 'brand's of textural music.
1962 witnessed Maurice Ohana's _Tombeau de Claude Debussy_, which has become recognized as the beginning of 'mature' Ohana and his own path away from romaticism & dodecaphony.

It was simply something in the air in this time period - it's _zeitgeist_

[FYI, other Polish composers comprised the so-called _Warsaw Autumn_ from 1956 onwards - so Penderecki was not the only modern Pole! ]

[also, Morton Feldman had been using graphic notation since around 1950/'51. ]


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## korenbloem (Nov 5, 2012)

"How would you classify the music of Ligeti and Penderecki? (contemporary classical)?"

Awesome!


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## ligecki (Oct 5, 2013)

aleazk said:


> There are a lot of conceptual differences between the composers as you can see.


Thank you for clarifying that, I've only got into Ligeti about 6 months ago and have found no time (or resources) to look at his scores, hence my horrid generalisation. When I meant graphic notations et al I actually meant music focusing on timbre/texture but I couldn't find a name for it. Avant-garde seems to be the only term i could find.

I am going to focus on their works around 60s-70s. I won't look at the ricercata now that I have narrowed it down (but will probably reference it).



Prodromides said:


> Hello, ligecki.
> 
> The music of Ligeti and (early) Penderecki - especially their output from the late 1950s & early 1960s - has been placed under an 'umbrella' term of _sonorism_ or _textural music_.


Sonorism seems to be the best term. I've tracked down the pieces i am going to talk about now and they all have the element of texture/timbre as most important. They're also all composed around 1960-70s which seems to be the most dominant aspect of their styles at the time.

I never considered xenakis to be that sort of composer, i've only really looked at his "motif variation" stuff. I'll have to check it out, thanks.



korenbloem said:


> "How would you classify the music of Ligeti and Penderecki? (contemporary classical)?"
> 
> Awesome!


They rock! :guitar:


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