# Blind listening #3



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As with the various blind comparison threads, something to pass the time!

This is a variant on the blind comparison series except that here we have just one item to listen to, one that is not identified in any way. The idea is to comment on something that you have (very) probably not heard by a composer who you many not even be aware of. Of course some will have heard this in which case I just ask that you not give away the answer. As always I will post the information in a couple of days but you are welcome to PM me about it prior to then.

Here we have an ~15 minute orchestral work...

https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZ9U7MkZsmUaVTwdevFbzggCGAkFpYw3T7U7

Have fun, I look forward to seeing the comments


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Anyone interested?


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Just listened to it. Here's my first impression.

The opening section feels like the music is awakening from the deep, and it slowly builds up to something that I sensed some kind of pensiveness (I'd expected a vibrant sunrise but alas no). Think I also heard some dissonance here. I think this sets the tone for the whole piece.

The following scherzo-like section starts with a rhythm that at first I thought was a bit squarish, but the transformation of the theme, the steady build up, and the gradual join-in from the woodwinds, the brass, and then the whole orchestra sounds really interesting, and very well-paced. The middle section of this "scherzo" is also the most upbeat.

Then a sudden tone down. I'd expected some kind of calm conclusion from this beautiful section, but there is neither contentment nor resolution. Instead it slowly builds up to an abrupt end. A bit too abrupt, perhaps. Certainly left me feeling pensive.

I'm mostly impressed by the gradual build ups and the theme transformations. Very well done. Interest is sustained very well.

Oh I don't know this piece, the composer, nor what it is about. Baltic? Scandinavian? Nationalistic in nature? Can't wait to find out.

Becca, Thanks for setting this up. Blind listening is interesting. I can't say if it's easier or more difficult than a blind comparison, but it certainly is more exciting for me to listen to something (attentively!) that I have not before, even though I'm also out of my depth with my vocabulary. :lol:

Let's see what others think.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I will give it a try tomorrow, Becca.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

Great idea. Sadly, I am not a musician so can make no technical comments. 

Started out well enough, but the slow build really just kind of meandered. Then at 4:30 came the underlying theme which to me seemed very derivative and formulaic. Then at about the 10:45 mark there was a decided change in tempo and feel to the whole piece which I thought kind of saved it. 

Doesn't quite have that 21st Century-Theme-In-Search-of-a-Movie feel to it, but close. Overall I would say not horrible, just not my cup of tea.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I'm interested in the concept of a blind listening (although not so much in the actual listening and commenting).

In choosing a work to blind assess, there are several avenues you can use to find a work that is obscure enough that a forum with a spitload of actual music fanatics won't immediately identify it. 

I'm guessing that you might find a wealth of orchestral music such as this from film soundtracks, or perhaps suites of soundtracks. There's also a small amount of pop artists that have released classical albums, often with new self-composed classical-genre works. And then there's new works from Classical composers that are so new that familiarity wouldn't be an issue.

You could, of course, find an obscure composer (for instance, right now I'm listening to a Sonata for Cello and Piano in D, Op. 17 by Luise Adolpha Le Beau (1850-1927), and I doubt that very few here have ever heard) to use.

Most difficult would be to find an obscure work by a famous composer, a Brahms, Schubert, Scriabin, Brucker, Mahler famous composer. Then watch the critics tear down a master. Of course, again, the more obscure works are often obscure for a legitimate reason, like it's a sucky early work.

Anyway, I downloaded the track, and scanned through it (it was taking too long to "get off the ground", and my patience has been wearing thin being an out-of-work gig musician for the last week and the unforeseeable future). 

It sounded pretty generic, and quite film-esque. Nice orchestrations.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Sounds vaguely Russian to me. Or possibly Finland/quasi-Sibelius. Obviously post World War II. But also quite romantic-sounding, quasi- or wanting-to-be 19th century. It's an awakening of sorts (dawn-to-the business of ordinary daylight), or maybe depression turning to something more cheerful. Love the glockenspiel silvery highlights at around the 6'30 mark.

Love the distant, sweeping landscape of the flutes at around 10'40.

Nice horn work around the 13 minute mark!

Did I hear a fugue in there somewhere? 

It sounds like there ought to be more movements, so I'm guessing it's someone's symphony. I think I'd like to hear it all, though. General impression without the entire context is: it's rather an attractive piece and as soon as you reveal who the composer is, I shall be wanting to listen to more of his or her work!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

General impression: it's pleasant, well orchestrated, very tonal and genial. Many different influences. I hear Sibelius, Bach, Bruckner, Vaughan Williams, Gliere, and a lot of film composers. The "problem" is a lack of tension-release that great music abounds with. The long pedal point around 11:00 pushes against the other harmonies but I wish it was more intense and grinding. Then there's a heavy reliance on using sequences. No masterpiece. The heavy use of horns gives it that film music sound. Inoffensive to be sure, but lacking in emotional appeal I'm afraid.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I will post the details on Monday morning (US Pacific time)


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Not really my thing. I actually found the way it built in volume while repeating the same music, before moving on to another bit that is then treated in a similar way, irritating. And none of the themes was lovely enough to win me over. I've no idea what it was.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Seemed pleasant enough. Sounds like earlyish 20th century...vaguely like Sibelius.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Is there a hint of Bartok in there somewhere? Or Paul Dukas?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

This piece is the first movement of Alexander Brincken's 4th Symphony from 2015 performed by the Royal Scottish Nat'l Orchestra. I discovered it after reading this MusicWeb Int'l review.

Brincken (Wikipedia link) was born in Leningrad in 1952, studied at the Leningrad Conservatory and has been a Swiss resident since 1992.

I make no representations about this being anything special other than, at least to these ears, it seems to actually 'go somewhere', which is more than I can say for quite a number of works by better known composers of the last 100 years. It certainly has more to say than at least one other piece that we have frequently been assured represents the direction that classical music should be moving. 

As to the various film music comments, I can't really argue with that other than to say 'so what?' I can think of many 19th century works that would have been put in that category had they known about movies back then! It is a piece that I will return to occasionally, definitely more often than symphonies by N* R*, C* V* S*, A* R* etc.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

> And then there's new works from Classical composers that are so new that familiarity wouldn't be an issue.


Yeah, 2015 is pretty damned fresh, and, sadly, I've never heard of Alexander Brincken.

It must be very very very very difficult for "new" composers to "break in" to the mainstream Classical repertoire.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I commend Toccata Classics for going out of their way to find composers such as Brincken, Steve Elcock and others, and arranging to have recordings made by well known orchestras.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

I’m surprised to find out that this symphony was written in 2014/2015. It sounds terribly old-fashioned for something this recent. Perhaps Mr. Brincken, like the late George Lloyd, is uncompromising in believing in his way of writing music.

Did some reading about this symphony. The booklet of this record described the first movement as “... unfolds in a series of dark sonorities, the mood shifting between depression and burgeoning hope”. That sounds inline with the unease, upbeat and pensiveness that I heard. I think Mr. Brincken’s music strikes a chord with me.

Also managed to listen to the whole symphony. The formula of slow build-up and stretching until it breaks seems ever-present throughout the symphony. Repeating a trick too many times, perhaps? And maybe those tension points could be a bit more inventive as well. Having said that, I actually quite enjoy it. It’s just a bit long for what it is and the materials that it contains.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ I feel that if it had been written 100 years ago it would have been forgotten by now! So it had to be fresh. But it worries me that composers feel a desire to write music that is such a throwback without there being some sort of knowing glint in their musical eye while doing so! I didn't really want to be negative but it does physically worry me. As I get older I find so much in the modern world that makes me shake your head in distressed disbelief!


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

I came (fashionably) late to this thread after the mystery composition had been identified and thus I was aware of who the composer was but was not familiar with the composition itself.

I was so impressed that less than two-thirds of the way through I opened a second page, headed over to Presto Classical, and placed my order for the disc.

This excerpt from the Music Web International review says all that needs to be said -

_"The inclination is to ask, where has this glorious, rich, ravishing and at times passionate music been all my life? There is so much here which seems tailor-made to bring the lovers of Rachmaninov, Rimsky-Korsakov, Sibelius and Wagner on board...This is very much a composer whose influences are rooted in the distant past, and who is not in any way afraid to confess it in his words or proclaim it in his music. It is that unashamed self-confidence which I find most attractive about this music."
_
This is an important concept... One that Becca developed into an equally important thread - one in which a member attempted to share a composition that inspired a sense of wonderment and the search for kindred spirits to share it with... And she succeeded in at least one instance - which sometimes is really all that matters - someone somewhere shared that sense of wonderment and in this instance that person was me and for that I have her to thank.

I would encourage Becca to continue this concept in which a work that is undeservedly overlooked is given a chance to seek and find a wider audience. The attempt to identify the "mystery composition" would have been great fun but it isn't the "mystery" aspect that is of the most importance - it's the idea that this is something that needs to be heard by someone and this is a way for you to hear it in a unique and novel manner.

This forum needs far more "music appreciation" type threads like this one and far fewer threads which inspire and encourage an aesthetic negativity which expresses nothing but a _faux sophistiqué_ contempt for that which is disliked (and all too often absolutely loathed) and is thus to be dismissed as inconsequential at best and insipid at worst.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

It's a nice piece of music, at times reminding me of Sibelius. The actual date of composition isn't a problem for me; I'll just think of it as a work from 1910 that was recently discovered.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Kiki said:


> I'm surprised to find out that this symphony was written in 2014/2015. It sounds terribly old-fashioned for something this recent. Perhaps Mr. Brincken, like the late George Lloyd, is uncompromising in believing in his way of writing music.
> 
> Did some reading about this symphony. The booklet of this record described the first movement as "... unfolds in a series of dark sonorities, the mood shifting between depression and burgeoning hope". That sounds inline with the unease, upbeat and pensiveness that I heard. I think Mr. Brincken's music strikes a chord with me.
> 
> Also managed to listen to the whole symphony. The formula of slow build-up and stretching until it breaks seems ever-present throughout the symphony. *Repeating a trick too many times, perhaps*? And maybe those tension points could be a bit more inventive as well. Having said that, I actually quite enjoy it. *It's just a bit long for what it is* and the materials that it contains.


I would mostly agree with these highlghted assessments. Perhaps Mr. Brincken will revise the symphony after having heard it performed which would be a good thing, but as noted above, it is something that I will revisit occasionally.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I enjoyed it. The violins in the background reminded me of Wagner, the overall shape of the composition reminded me of Sibelius or even a bit of R. Strauss. Very "tone poem." Thanks, Becca.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

If anyone is interested in pursuing this further -









*Alexander Brincken: Orchestral Music, Volume One
*
*Alexander Brincken (piano)

Royal Scottish National Orchestra, Rainer Held*

*Link to complete album - *

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kztCt900H92LEyyk-qBMKkA7eoJvz9l-E

*Works
*
*Brincken: Capriccio for Piano and Chamber Orchestra, Op. 11
Brincken: Symphony No. 4 in G minor, Op. 27*


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ I feel that if it had been written 100 years ago it would have been forgotten by now! So it had to be fresh. But it worries me that composers feel a desire to write music that is such a throwback without there being some sort of knowing glint in their musical eye while doing so! I didn't really want to be negative but it does physically worry me. As I get older I find so much in the modern world that makes me shake your head in distressed disbelief!


Take it easy, mate. What's happening in this crazy world sometimes makes my blood boil as well although that's not good for my health. (Toilet rolls, anyone?) Little excursion does me a lot of good, like Mr. Brincken's old-fashioned music. No doubt this music is not in the same league as that of Gubaidulina/Penderecki/whoever one thinks is representative of the modern time, but I'm glad that I find it a pleasurable listen, thanks to the good taste of Becca.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Nothing to do with current events. I just react quite strongly to this music. This isn't putting anyone else's taste down. Why should it be, why should my taste be better than anyone else's? And, yes, I do welcome Becca's many blind tests ... and I respond to them, too!


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

^ Just hoping that the dislike you found in this music has not got to you as badly as it sounds. Not worth it IMO.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Kiki said:


> ^ Just hoping that the dislike you found in this music has not got to you as badly as it sounds. Not worth it IMO.


It's important to understand that our friend "*Enthusiast*" chose his username using the literary device known as "*antiphrasis*" which uses words or phrases to convey the opposite sense of their real meanings.

As a figure of speech, the word or phrase is used in a way that is *completely opposite to its literal meaning*, *which creates either irony or a comic effect*.

He had to utilize *antiphrasis* in the choice of username because "*Not Really All That Enthusiastic About Much Of Anything At All*" while accurate, was far too long - :lol:


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Kiki said:


> ^ Just hoping that the dislike you found in this music has not got to you as badly as it sounds. Not worth it IMO.


I may not be understanding your reference to it not being worth it. I do respond quite strongly (viscerally) to some music - both positively and negatively. With most music my reaction is more moderate (positively or negatively) but some music actually excites me in a good or bad way. It is the way I am and I can't say it is difficult for me in the slightest. I'm sorry if it disturbs you, though. Are you often sensitive about expressions of emotion?

Strangely, I am not one of those who cries tears at moving or beautiful music - which so many of us do.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Duncan said:


> It's important to understand that our friend "*Enthusiast*" chose his username using the literary device known as "*antiphrasis*" which uses words or phrases to convey the opposite sense of their real meanings.
> 
> As a figure of speech, the word or phrase is used in a way that is *completely opposite to its literal meaning*, *which creates either irony or a comic effect*.
> 
> He had to utilize *antiphrasis* in the choice of username because "*Not Really All That Enthusiastic About Much Of Anything At All*" while accurate, was far too long - :lol:


Haha. But why get personal? You have clearly missed my enthusiastic posts - which certainly outnumber my more negative ones - but before getting unpleasant about it you might have done some checking. But, you know what? Why not just put me on ignore if you don't like what I write?

Now, you have ruined my day!


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> Haha. But why get personal? You have clearly missed my enthusiastic posts - which certainly outnumber my more negative ones - but before getting unpleasant about it you might have done some checking. But, you know what? Why not just put me on ignore if you don't like what I write?
> 
> Now, you have ruined my day!


... sigh ... -------------------


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I commented earlier, but my comments were mostly about the concept of a blind listening. My very few comments on the actual piece were

1. it was taking too long to "get off the ground", 
2. It sounded pretty generic, and 
3. quite film-esque. 
4. Nice orchestrations.

1 & 2 are critical, 4 is appreciative. #3 is both. 

Now, I hadn't actually sat down listened to the whole track . . . I skipped ahead and sampled various random places so there's no way I'd be able to appreciate the FLOW and BUILD. But several others echoed my assessments that the ORCHESTRATION was nice, and that it sound a great deal like a FILM SCORE.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Why can 'film-esque' be considered 'critical'? I could see reasons for commenting on it, but critical?


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Becca said:


> Why can 'film-esque' be considered 'critical'? I could see reasons for commenting on it, but critical?


I think that it's a double-edged comment to call a piece of music 'film-esque' - it can be used in both a complimentary and a derogatory way.

Some Classical Music elitists DO tend to look down their noses with disdain at Film Scores, even dismissing them outright as orchestral crap.

But most of us (especially here) accept that some film music is part of the family.

When I used the phrase in my 'critique' I meant both (complimentary AND dismissive). Film music AND Classical music run the gamut of astonishing/groundbreaking/masterpiece to maudlin/derivative/forgettable.

This Brincken Symphony (at least the parts I heard) has both good and bad characteristics of film music. I like film music, but it's approach (for serious film scores and film score composers) is entirely different . . . it's designed as an audio component to a visual medium, whereas a "Symphony" is composed as an audio-only experience. Therefore, in my mind, a successful film score may fail as a stand-alone piece, and a successful Symphony might not work as a soundtrack.

So, for me anyway, calling some orchestral music "filmesque" is neither good nor bad, AND both good and bad.

The Brinckner symphony, presented as a blind listening project, didn't grab me immediately, so I skipped ahead. I loved the orchestrations, but didn't feel compelled to listen to the whole thing.

Then again, I've been a bit cranky for the last week, what with both my job and my gig being cancelled for the time being, being told to stay home, and doing basically nothing but surfing the internet, an occasional walk, and sitting a lot, and eating a lot. Cranky, I tells ya, cranky!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

pianozach said:


> ............ Cranky, I tells ya, cranky!


Sorry, couldn't resist...you feel like this:






?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Just found this today. 

For the first three minutes or so I thought I might be hearing a pictorial tone poem depicting some vast, open landscape; the harmony at the beginning was modal, suggesting Spain or Latin America. Villa-Lobos? After a long, gradual buildup based on a short, repeated figure over changing harmonies I began to wonder when we were going to enter the village and meet the townsfolk. Sure enough the music soon broke into a dancey 6/8 rhythm, which was a pleasant contrast with the preceding; but after another section of repetitious figuration I got impatient for a well-defined melodic idea, which didn't arrive until about seven and a half minutes into the piece. Unfortunately It wasn't much of a tune, consisting (like the whole piece so far) of simple sequences subjected to a gradual buildup. As it turned out, this was the way the whole work was structured: several contrasting sections of repetitive melodic and rhythmic figures, unmemorable in themselves but made memorable (at least temporarily) through the most obvious of means: repetition allied to gradual crescendo. This lack of melodic substance left the job of holding my interest to the elements of harmony and orchestration, which were handled skillfully enough to keep me listening. But I have to say that not long after going in one ear, the piece is already going out the other.

I'm surprised to find that the composer is a Russian-born Swiss. If those open spaces I was hearing are the Russian steppes, I guess I have to congratulate him for not sounding like Borodin.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I'm surprised to find that the composer is a Russian-born Swiss. If those open spaces I was hearing are the Russian steppes, I guess I have to congratulate him for not sounding like Borodin.


Given how long he has been in Switzerland, they are probably the Swiss steppes which would explain everything :lol:


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Becca said:


> Given how long he has been in Switzerland, they are probably the Swiss steppes which would explain everything :lol:


Strange but true...

The steppe landscapes in Switzerland are to be found predominantly on the sunny slopes of Valais and the Grisons.

You never know... you may be on "Jeopardy" some day and you'll thank me...


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Duncan said:


> Strange but true...
> 
> The steppe landscapes in Switzerland are to be found predominantly on the sunny slopes of Valais and the Grisons.
> 
> ...


"In the Steppes of Central Graubünden"


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Becca said:


> "In the Steppes of Central Graubünden"


Which one? - Heidi Baader-Nobs (Dutoit/Orchestre de chambre de Neuchâtel)

or Meinrad Schütter (Maag/Orchestre de la Suisse Romande)?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Touché  ..........


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Becca said:


> I would mostly agree with these highlghted assessments. Perhaps Mr. Brincken will revise the symphony after having heard it performed which would be a good thing, but as noted above, it is something that I will revisit occasionally.


I never saw this thread when it fist came out but then I wasn't a member at that time. My impression about the first five times of listening to the symphony was also that it spun out the material a little too far. Suddenly I started to realise that I'm pretty sure he does know what he's doing and that the often subtle changes in the development of the themes are carefully planned. The guy graduated from the Leningrad conservatoire with Distinction and is most certainly no hack.

Incidentally on influences, apart from obvious ones like Bruckner, Rachmaninov and Schmidt, I asked him whether he'd ever heard any Swedish romantic symphonic music as the atmosphere of the sublime slow movement is closer than anything I've ever heard to Atterberg's 2nd and also Alfven -- it's more of a maritime freshness than a tranquil Swiss lake. Interestingly he has studied Swedish folk music and in particular the Norwegian Hardangar tradition but is not very familiar with the leading symphonies.


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