# I'm tired of feeling clueless



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

My apologies. I hope no one takes this the wrong way.

There is a lot of discussion here and all over the internet about modern opera singing. There are different opinions, and to an extent I have my own. 

But this has been bothering me for a while, and perhaps I just need to rant. I have ears (perhaps that is adequate) and can listen to opera recordings from today or over a hundred years ago and everywhere between. When I compare recordings, there is no question in my mind that there is something lacking today. 

So what's my point? — I feel clueless, like I'm in the dark with everything. I personally have hardly ever sung for more than fifteen minutes straight, I don't know any professional singers, and I only managed to squeeze in one live opera performance attendance before the pandemic stopped it all. I am searching for answers in a field I have limited experience in.

But I can't help it. I want a good means of acquiring information on a subject and crave good references. There are places one can find reliable information when it comes to a question that science has addressed. 

Opera singing on the other hand ... A peer reviewed source? Experiments people have performed? Things I can test myself? Do such things exist in this subject? I'm not seeing anything. And opinions and anecdotes seem to be very prevalent.

How does one acquire information? We can go to people's blogs, read discussions on forums, watch YouTube, read books that people tell us about ... What about today's professionals? Well, how many can you cite that have even addressed anything that we have been talking about? How can someone like me who doesn't even sing make sense of anything all the sources are telling me though it may all sound right? None of this is an incredibly convincing way to prove a point.

I'm tired of relying on opinions and anecdotes. I can hear and decide that Iike or don't like what I hear, but I can't understand why. It's all just an attempt to make sense of all the things I can read off the screen from people I don't know on a subject I don't practice myself. Maybe that's just art and why the same discussions keep happening.

How can we know things on this subject without this just turning into "I read something someone on the internet said"? (No offense to anyone here, as I enjoy discussing these things with you all)

Any thoughts? (Other than "adriesba is losing his mind" )


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

adriesba said:


> My apologies. I hope no one takes this the wrong way.
> 
> There is a lot of discussion here and all over the internet about modern opera singing. There are different opinions, and to an extent I have my own.
> 
> ...


Welcome. Not ranting. Feeling frustrated: yes. I have felt like that. Hang around for a few years on this site and if you pay attention you can learn a lot. Go to The State of Modern Singing thread and read and learn. Pick out threads like that where singing is discussed, as in my discussion on Vibrato ( which I started because I didn't understand something). What I have found very illustrative is listening to really great singers ( from the past) and train your ears. These contests comparing singers are also a great place to begin as most of the super smart posters chime in. I have specialized areas ( female singers) where I know a good bit. Some of these posters know tons and explain it well. Listen to Master Classes with great singers like Joan Sutherland, Maria Callas, Richard Bonynge, Birgit Nilsson, Marilyn Horne and you can learn a lot as well. I also greatly recommend The Art of Bel Canto video with Sutherland, Horne, and Pavarotti ( it is amazing). G to threads about The Greatest ...... and listen to examples recommended.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

It doesn't take to be a Professor of Vocal Arts and History of Music to decide if you enjoy the particular piece of singing or not. Explaining what you hear takes a bit more knowledge, but nothing you cannot learn by listening to many recordings and attending some concerts here and there. Do not lose your mind, enjoy what you like and share your findings on TC.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have been here for 9 years and still don't know much about music. No fault of TC, but my own fault for not pursuing learning of music. But that does not stop me from enjoying music.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

It can all seem confusing, but just remember one thing. Even though people have very different ideas about singing, they all have one thing in common: They're right, and everyone else is wrong.

Once you keep that in mind, it all makes a whole lot more sense.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I can totally relate! I have zero "professional" musical training and my knowledge of voice technique is meagre. When I started listening to opera, I couldn't even properly distinguish the voices. I'm still quite frustrated sometimes with my nonexistent theoretical knowledge but I'm really glad for all the knowledgeable people here. Just read what they have to say - it's one of the main reasons why I understand anything at all. 

I tried to understand the theoretical basis of opera singing (all that larynx and mask stuff etc) some time ago but, to be honest, I gave up. It felt rather incomprehensible without being able to understand the terms and the practical outcomes, as you said yourself. However, a member here gave me probably the best advice I've received so far - to be patient and compare different singers. I'm really thankful for the recent comparison threads that Bonetan has been doing as I think this is exactly the kind of thing that enables me to understand what are the differences between good and bad singing. It's interesting to read the comparisons by people who actually understand *why* the singing of two singers sounds different, why is one better or the other worse.

Like in many other areas, opera singing also has different schools, which inevitably results in many conflicting opinions, even among professional singers and voice teachers. There isn't one objectively correct way to sing (sure there is an objective factor but also a huge subjective, opinion-based one), and thus one will never find the "truth" (or the Holy Grail, if you may ) of opera singing. In real life that means there have been many great singers, who were great for many different reasons.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Interesting rant.

I'm not _*sure*_ I understand what your specific issue is, but as near as I can figure, you want an objective declaration on *modern opera singing*, rather than a subjective one.

*You will not find what you seek.*

*Art is subjective*: One can analyze it, and draw conclusions.

Anything _*subjective*_ is subject to interpretation. Usually, "subjective" means influenced by emotions or opinions.

*I understand and appreciate "traditional" opera singing, but prefer to hear "pop opera" singers singing opera.*

Take musical theatre, for instance: There was a time when *Ethel Merman* was the best that Broadway could offer . . . that was prior to the mass miking of Broadway shows. Ethel could be heard in the back of the house. She starred in *Anything Goes* and *Annie Get Your Gun*, but I cannot imagine her being an effective Fantine in *Les Miserables* or Mrs. Lovett in *Sweeney Todd*.

Would Mozart have been effective playing a Chopin polonaise?

Things change. You can go with the "tried and true" or you can embrace the "new". It's up to you.

My advice is to learn by observation, and by reading and listening (thanks, Youtube!) to actual experts' opinions. Take their observations and analyses and decide how much or how little is relevant to YOU.


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## Saxman (Jun 11, 2019)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Welcome. Not ranting. Feeling frustrated: yes. I have felt like that. Hang around for a few years on this site and if you pay attention you can learn a lot. Go to The State of Modern Singing thread and read and learn. Pick out threads like that where singing is discussed, as in my discussion on Vibrato ( which I started because I didn't understand something). What I have found very illustrative is listening to really great singers ( from the past) and train your ears. These contests comparing singers are also a great place to begin as most of the super smart posters chime in. I have specialized areas ( female singers) where I know a good bit. Some of these posters know tons and explain it well. Listen to Master Classes with great singers like Joan Sutherland, Maria Callas, Richard Bonynge, Birgit Nilsson, Marilyn Horne and you can learn a lot as well. I also greatly recommend The Art of Bel Canto video with Sutherland, Horne, and Pavarotti ( it is amazing). G to threads about The Greatest ...... and listen to examples recommended.


I think watching/listening to a masterclass is a great way to learn. IN particular, I like Thomas Hampson, Joyce DiDonato, and Renee Fleming. I think all three are pretty good at including explanation of technique and interpretation.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

pianozach said:


> Interesting rant.
> 
> I'm not _*sure*_ I understand what your specific issue is, but as near as I can figure, you want an objective declaration on *modern opera singing*, rather than a subjective one.
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, there is a subjective and an objective component to the evaluation of singing. That these two components exist is obvious when you compare singing to preferences that are largely subjective like a favourite colour. If I were to say "magenta is a terrible colour" to a room of people, they would think I was either expressing a personally held opinion or inviting a silly debate for humorous effect. Nobody would think that I believed that magenta was a terrible colour in an absolute sense.

Contrast this to me stating "I'm a terrible singer". Presuming you haven't heard me sing, let me fill you in; my vocal repertoire ranges from the "dying donkey who is a retired chain-smoker" in my lower register to the "shrieking cat who spent all day scarfing up hairballs" at the top of my register. Nobody would challenge my statement, in fact, everyone would agree with it.

In other words, people near-universally and instinctively recognise that there is a rational basis with which to evaluate the quality of singing. Studying this basis goes beyond studying mere subjective preference and to say otherwise is wrong.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Please my dear friend. Opera is not something to get bothered about. Leave that to the professionals - it's their living. We as the audience are just here to enjoy it. It is actually a quite ridiculous spectacle in which people sing for quite a long time instead of speak which means everything takes far longer than it would normally. The whole thing appears to have been the fault of an Italian called Monteverdi who put words to music with great skill and it caught on, especially at first with the upper classes. It has always tended to be an elitist thing apart from when a guy called Gay decided to write a parody called 'The Beggars Opera' which was put an by an impresario named Rich. They said it made Gay rich. It was immensely popular with the plebs much to the annoyance of Handel, who turned from writing Italian operas to English oratorio. The incredible Mozart wrote operas in both Italian and in his native German language before dying of overwork and the torch was taken up in Italy by guys like Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti before Verdi and Puccini wrote the last great ones. In Germany opera was taken more seriously with Wagner who was more philosophical about it and has dedicated followers while the Italians mainly wrote for the box office. I love the glorious and ridiculous so that is why I love opera as long as no-one takes it too seriously. Probably why I prefer the Italians to the Germans although I am a fan of Handel. But then he was a German Englishman who wrote Italian opera for the English - so you can't get much more ridiculous than that. Apart from Handel's plots that is. 
Anyway, my friend, opera is here to be enjoyed not agonised over, so put a recording of Carmen on (I missed out the French - sorry) and sit and enjoy the glorious irrelevance. I'm on Lucia at the moment. Going mad on your wedding night. Who ever heard of such a thing? But it brings in the punters!


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

As has been said many times, art is subjective. 

I can enjoy many, many different singers in Opera. I keep an open mind, and listen to many things. Personally, I value an expressive performance very highly. As with everyone, we find singers and performances we prefer over others. 

I could commit what some would consider sacrilege: I prefer Bartoli’s deeply expressive and intimate prayer-like performance of Casta Diva to Sutherland’s powerful & masterful performances of this aria. Why? Because, for me, it perfectly captures the feeling that I think the composer intended. This isn’t a criticism of Sutherland, whose performances were undeniably brilliant - but I found something that works better for me. Others on here (and other forums) will tell you and me that I’m mad!

However, this comes down to personal preference: In art, there is no firm ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. My personal definition of ‘great singer’ is one who captures the character & spirit of the role & aria they are singing (obviously an element of sound technique is required as the foundation for this). For others, it’s about vocal technique over everything- but techniques change over time. What’s “better” or “worse” is difficult to define. 

Personally, I find the young artists (such as Lezhneva, Yende, Blue, Janeckova etc) far more exciting that those who’ve retired! They’re new potential, they’re developing, and we get to watch that development of technique and character as it happens. This is great to see, and I can’t wait to see how they develop and hopefully see them in live performance when things get back to normal!!

In summary: listen to whatever you enjoy and makes you happy!! If someone on the internet says that the thing that makes you happy isn’t the best, so what?? I’ve found enjoyment in artists ranging from Corelli to Flores, Sutherland & Zeani (my favourite of all time) to Garifulina, Podles to Bartoli. If they sound good to you, then enjoy and be happy!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

People will tell you, "Don't take opera too seriously." I say, if you love opera, or are beginning to love it, take it as seriously as you want, and never feel the need to apologize for it.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Maybe I should clarify what I mean. It's not that I'm clueless about good singing or about what singing I like. Certainly I've recognized lots of good and bad singing in various things I've listened to. And distinguishing what I do or don't like is easy.

Some level of critiquing is simple enough. I don't like Horne's voice much because it's nasally. I don't like the gulping sounds Kaufmann or Vinay have. Or this singer wobbles, this one has poor pronunciation, this one sounds too breathy. Certain critiques only require an elementary understanding.

There are other concepts though that go beyond this beginner's level of knowledge. What if I were to express my opinion on certain aspects of modern opera singing? If someone asked me what about modern opera singing I don't like, some things I could describe, but in regards to other aspects, my answer would essentially be "Well let me regurgitate such-and-such I read on the internet about chest voice and whatnot." Do I really understand this? As someone who is simply a listener, I have no good way to verify certain concepts. And considering that opinions differ widely sometimes, how can I possibly sort through correct information and dubious opinions? There's no test I can use to figure out what to think.

Some things I can understand, but as someone who isn't a singer, my capacity to judge certain things is limited, and I then need to choose whose words to have faith in.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

adriesba said:


> Maybe I should clarify what I mean. It's not that I'm clueless about good singing or about what singing I like. Certainly I've recognized lots of good and bad singing in various things I've listened to. And distinguishing what I do or don't like is easy.
> 
> Some level of critiquing is simple enough. I don't like Horne's voice much because it's nasally. I don't like the gulping sounds Kaufmann or Vinay have. Or this singer wobbles, this one has poor pronunciation, this one sounds too breathy. Certain critiques only require an elementary understanding.
> 
> ...


To understand singing it may not be necessary to be a singer, but it certainly helps. We have a number of singers here on the forum, including me in earlier years. You're hanging out with a good crowd. Just keep listening to singing, read what people say and see how it relates to what you hear, and relax. I'm still learning about singing and singers, and I've learned from some people on this forum.

As others have said, some aspects of art can be judged objectively, but much is personal; whether you prefer Nllsson or Flagstad as Isolde is entirely up to you, and you owe nothing to anyone except to consider their views politely, as they will consider yours, all of us taking from each other what we can use to enhance our own knowledge and enjoyment. Knowledge and taste develop over time, and though there are aids in the process there's no skipping to the last chapter to see how it comes out - which, if you think about it, is rather delightful. It means we never run out of new revelations and don't get bored before we die.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

BachIsBest said:


> Just to be clear, there is a subjective and an objective component to the evaluation of singing. That these two components exist is obvious when you compare singing to preferences that are largely subjective like a favourite colour. If I were to say "magenta is a terrible colour" to a room of people, they would think I was either expressing a personally held opinion or inviting a silly debate for humorous effect. Nobody would think that I believed that magenta was a terrible colour in an absolute sense.
> 
> Contrast this to me stating "I'm a terrible singer". Presuming you haven't heard me sing, let me fill you in; my vocal repertoire ranges from the "dying donkey who is a retired chain-smoker" in my lower register to the "shrieking cat who spent all day scarfing up hairballs" at the top of my register. Nobody would challenge my statement, in fact, everyone would agree with it.
> 
> In other words, people near-universally and instinctively recognise that there is a rational basis with which to evaluate the quality of singing. Studying this basis goes beyond studying mere subjective preference and to say otherwise is wrong.


Well, I appreciate your point, but it's not exactly relevant to mine. You're talking about the objectivity of comparing a chainsmoking donkey voice with that of an opera singer.

I'm talking about two differently trained vocalists, which would be more of a subjective comparison.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I feel like I should have a lot to offer you, but I'm not sure how to give it. I had a professional career singing in a way that I now feel is technically incorrect. I've changed the way I sing in large part due to the things I've learned on TC and I'm much better for it. If my experience can help you in any way...


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

BachIsBest said:


> Just to be clear, there is a subjective and an objective component to the evaluation of singing. That these two components exist is obvious when you compare singing to preferences that are largely subjective like a favourite colour. If I were to say "magenta is a terrible colour" to a room of people, they would think I was either expressing a personally held opinion or inviting a silly debate for humorous effect. Nobody would think that I believed that magenta was a terrible colour in an absolute sense.
> 
> Contrast this to me stating "I'm a terrible singer". Presuming you haven't heard me sing, let me fill you in; my vocal repertoire ranges from the "dying donkey who is a retired chain-smoker" in my lower register to the "shrieking cat who spent all day scarfing up hairballs" at the top of my register. Nobody would challenge my statement, in fact, everyone would agree with it.
> 
> In other words, people near-universally and instinctively recognise that there is a rational basis with which to evaluate the quality of singing. Studying this basis goes beyond studying mere subjective preference and to say otherwise is wrong.


_" there is a subjective and an objective component".....
_
Thank you. You are in the right way.

Many people tend to underline subjective components; sadly, this is a dogma. They forget that if subjectivity exists, objectivity too!. Objectivity deserves a place in art.

Example: Beethoven´s Symphonies. I dislike such works (subjectivity), but I recognize that those works are among the most important symphonies ever created, etc. (objectivity).

Modern singing? Are there real, real, verdian Baritones? wagnerian Sopranos?

In many interviews, Christa Ludwig, Teresa Berganza, Carlo Bergonzi, René Kollo,etc expressed the same concern: Modern singers are skilled, masters of technique, but....they are cold, travel too much, and don´t understand the roles they assume. Their voices lost quality in few years.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Well, I can relate to the OP, but to opera singing in general, not just modern opera singing. I've floated around the edges of opera appreciation for the last year or so, but since this new year, when I pledged to listen to at least two operas per week, I can feel another musical addiction coming on I'm a pianist, not a singer, so naturally I can better discern differences in performance style between pianists, conductors, and orchestras rather than vocalists. There are some voices that are very distinct for me, but a lot of others can sound the same. And there's definitely something to what adriesba says about coming to one's own judgments. I feel like that would be more beneficial, but I probably would have no idea how to evaluate the singing in any given opera if I hadn't previously scanned over Ralph Moore's reviews and searching TC threads for recommendations to find out what recording I should choose. I'm just not trained enough to recognize stuff like that on my own. And it's not just vocal timbre, it's also the element of "engaging with the text" which I find crucial but which I also feel I can't recognize in most circumstances (with a couple of exceptions like Callas). Learning Italian, German, and French is a long-term goal of mine but right now I can't tell whether the singers inflect the language emotionally or not. I just listen for whether, in my highly arbitrary perception, they sound connected to what they are singing.

So I've started hanging out around the Opera forum some more in hopes that I'll learn from some of you knowledgable people. Maybe someday I'll be able to tell the difference between a spinto and a coloratura soprano, and how to know whether a singer has invested a role with an interpretation of a character rather than just "singing it beautifully/not beautifully." Even if I don't, contenting oneself with enjoying the music and the talent of the singers who deliver it isn't bad at all, even if I can't explain exactly why I hear what I do.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Well, I can relate to the OP, but to opera singing in general, not just modern opera singing. I've floated around the edges of opera appreciation for the last year or so, but since this new year, when I pledged to listen to at least two operas per week, I can feel another musical addiction coming on I'm a pianist, not a singer, so naturally I can better discern differences in performance style between pianists, conductors, and orchestras rather than vocalists. There are some voices that are very distinct for me, but a lot of others can sound the same. And there's definitely something to what adriesba says about coming to one's own judgments. I feel like that would be more beneficial, but I probably would have no idea how to evaluate the singing in any given opera if I hadn't previously scanned over Ralph Moore's reviews and searching TC threads for recommendations to find out what recording I should choose. I'm just not trained enough to recognize stuff like that on my own. And it's not just vocal timbre, it's also the element of "engaging with the text" which I find crucial but which I also feel I can't recognize in most circumstances (with a couple of exceptions like Callas). Learning Italian, German, and French is a long-term goal of mine but right now I can't tell whether the singers inflect the language emotionally or not. I just listen for whether, in my highly arbitrary perception, they sound connected to what they are singing.
> 
> So I've started hanging out around the Opera forum some more in hopes that I'll learn from some of you knowledgable people. Maybe someday I'll be able to tell the difference between a spinto and a coloratura soprano, and how to know whether a singer has invested a role with an interpretation of a character rather than just "singing it beautifully/not beautifully." Even if I don't, contenting oneself with enjoying the music and the talent of the singers who deliver it isn't bad at all, even if I can't explain exactly why I hear what I do.


Interesting. I am the opposite. Others talk about different conductors bringing the music to life and I don't hear it, but I have a good ear for voices. Your plan is sound. You might find it helpful to hear different singers singing the same arias.Joan Sutherland and Maria Callas in Bel Raggio would be a good place to start. Also Rosa Ponselle (dramatic soprano) and Beverly Sills ( lyric soprano) in Casta Diva ( .There is no substitute for hearing a singer live in an opera house, of course.I could give you Youtube links if you wish.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Bonetan said:


> I feel like I should have a lot to offer you, but I'm not sure how to give it. I had a professional career singing in a way that I now feel is technically incorrect. I've changed the way I sing in large part due to the things I've learned on TC and I'm much better for it. If my experience can help you in any way...


I meant to reply sooner, but yes I would like to hear your point of view. So how did you get to the point that you thought what you learned was incorrect and decide to look at technique differently?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

adriesba said:


> I meant to reply sooner, but yes I would like to hear your point of view. So how did you get to the point that you thought what you learned was incorrect and decide to look at technique differently?


It all happened during quarantine lol. Long story short, my trajectory was as a Wagner singer, but in the last year+ my top opened up and it was again time for me to take a serious look at Verdi. I started paying very close attention to recordings, opinions, and singers mentioned in the Verdi Baritone thread. It was clear that the level has dropped significantly over the years. What stood out to me was the effortless nature of the historical singers vocal production when compared to voices of today. So I spent all of my practice time striving for that. I went back to the basics with scales and exercises trying to sing as easily as I speak, like Battistini and Plancon (my two faves). It went well. I took what I had discovered to my teacher and she was extremely pleased. Now I can sing piano all the way to the top of my range. Before I couldn't. Now I have a good trill. Before I didn't. I used to have a tendency to push. Now I don't. My legato is seamless. Before it was inconsistent. Everything about my singing has improved since I decided to model it after my bel canto heroes


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Bonetan said:


> It all happened during quarantine lol. Long story short, my trajectory was as a Wagner singer, but in the last year+ my top opened up and it was again time for me to take a serious look at Verdi. I started paying very close attention to recordings, opinions, and singers mentioned in the Verdi Baritone thread. It was clear that the level has dropped significantly over the years. What stood out to me was the effortless nature of the historical singers vocal production when compared to voices of today. So I spent all of my practice time striving for that. I went back to the basics with scales and exercises trying to sing as easily as I speak, like Battistini and Plancon (my two faves). It went well. I took what I had discovered to my teacher and she was extremely pleased. Now I can sing piano all the way to the top of my range. Before I couldn't. Now I have a good trill. Before I didn't. I used to have a tendency to push. Now I don't. My legato is seamless. Before it was inconsistent. Everything about my singing has improved since I decided to model it after my bel canto heroes


Thanks for this! That's good to hear!  I never read much of that thread, so maybe I should take a look.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

adriesba said:


> Thanks for this! That's good to hear!  I never read much of that thread, so maybe I should take a look.


I may look back and say that that thread changed my life. It came at exactly the right time and set me on the path I needed to be on.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> It all happened during quarantine lol. Long story short, my trajectory was as a Wagner singer, but in the last year+ my top opened up and it was again time for me to take a serious look at Verdi. I started paying very close attention to recordings, opinions, and singers mentioned in the Verdi Baritone thread. It was clear that the level has dropped significantly over the years. What stood out to me was the effortless nature of the historical singers vocal production when compared to voices of today. So I spent all of my practice time striving for that. I went back to the basics with scales and exercises trying to sing as easily as I speak, like Battistini and Plancon (my two faves). It went well. I took what I had discovered to my teacher and she was extremely pleased. Now I can sing piano all the way to the top of my range. Before I couldn't. Now I have a good trill. Before I didn't. I used to have a tendency to push. Now I don't. My legato is seamless. Before it was inconsistent. Everything about my singing has improved since I decided to model it after my bel canto heroes


What a wonderful testimonial! I'm glad I took one more look at TC tonight before going to bed. I'm very pleased for your vocal progress, and pleased to think that our talk here has benefitted you. I will have pleasant dreams. "Eri tu," perhaps.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> What a wonderful testimonial! I'm glad I took one more look at TC tonight before going to bed. I'm very pleased for your vocal progress, and pleased to think that our talk here has benefitted you. I will have pleasant dreams. "Eri tu," perhaps.


Apparently I'm very bad at predicting my dreams. What I actually dreamed about was someone trying to vaccinate me for Covid-19.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Apparently I'm very bad at predicting my dreams. What I actually dreamed about was someone trying to vaccinate me for Covid-19.


My wife and I are getting our vaccinations on February 8th. Yay! Death hopefully in abeyance for a while at least!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Apparently I'm very bad at predicting my dreams. What I actually dreamed about was someone trying to vaccinate me for Covid-19.


Sounds like a happy dream to me. Right now, where I live, they're vaccinating people sixty-five and older. So I should get my vaccination in another two and half years!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I became a passionate opera fan over 50 ! years ago when I was about 13 years old . I listened to every LP recording I ocukld of opera, and my local library on Long Island had an extensive collection of classical LPs with numerous complete recordings of operas ; all the most popular ones and many loess familiar ones . 
I attended performances at the Met and the now unfortunately definite New York city opera in Lincoln Center, read every book and article I could on opera and classical music in general / Of course, I've always loved classical music in general, not only opera .
I read classical music magazines reviewing the latest classical recording such as High Fidelity and Stereo Review both long defunct . 
And believe me, when I was a teenager, I read countless reviews of recordings and performances of operas live and recorded . When I was a kid, critics were longing for the alleged " Golden Age" of opera constantly and many lamented the "decline in opera singing ". 
The more things change, the more they stay the same . When I was a teenager and young adult, it was they heyday of Beverly Sills, Birgit Nilsson , Renata Scotto , Teresa Berganza, Marilyn Horne, Joan Sutherland, Janet Baker, Nicolai Gedda, James King, Jon Vickers, Fiorenza Cossotto , Sherill Milnes , Nicolai Ghiaurov, Elisabeth Soderstrom, Lucia Popp, Piero Cappuccilli , Regine Crespin, Gundola Janowitz, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Hermann Prey, Gabriel Bacquier, Franco Corelli, Carlo Bergonzi, James McCracken, Martti Talvela, Karl Ridderbusch, Galina Vishnevskya and so many other big name sin opera . 
Callas and Tebaldi were pretty much finished when I was new to opera . And I certainly heard recordings by legendary opera singers form before my time: Caruso, Chaliapin, Ponselle, you name it .
And I guarantee you, 40 9r 50 years from now, when we at this forum are gone or very old , and if the world has remained stable and opera is still performed , opera fans and critics will be longing for the good old days of Renee Fleming, Jonas Kaufmann, Angela Gheorghiu, Cecilia Bartoli, Anna Netrebko and other top opera stars today . Things never change !


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I'm not sure what point you're proving. People talking about a decline in singing when you were young could have been right. If that decline continued, then of course the singers you mentioned as being active when you were young would appear to be very good in comparison with today's singers, and people today would also be talking about a decline. In 50 years if the decline continued, they would think that there had been a decline since today. That's all 100% consistent with the decline hypothesis. If you want to know whether or not there really has been a decline, instead of just what some people are saying, you look at the evidence. The evidence includes what people are saying, but also includes the most important evidence, which is recordings. With all their limitations, they can tell us a lot. If you can produce singers today who are equivalent to Caruso, Chaliapin, and Ponselle, and show that they are as good through an analysis of their recordings, I will believe that there has been no decline. But you can't just hand wave away the many long, reasoned, evidence based discussions we've had on this forum, as well as the conclusions of a lot of other people. I mean, even Anna Netrebko thinks singing has declined.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

superhorn said:


> And I guarantee you, 40 9r 50 years from now, when we at this forum are gone or very old , and if the world has remained stable and opera is still performed , opera fans and critics will be longing for the good old days of Renee Fleming, Jonas Kaufmann, Angela Gheorghiu, Cecilia Bartoli, Anna Netrebko and other top opera stars today . Things never change !


Not much point in guaranteeing that to someone older than you, but if we must have guarantees, _I'll_ guarantee _you_ that if people ever think the top stars of today constitute a "golden age" it will be because all the recorded evidence of the past has been destroyed by the confluence of climate change, an untreatable pandemic, a nuclear war, and a giant asteroid creating the seventh and final great extinction.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Evidence from the past in singing can be very misleading . We can hear only a tiny fraction of all the singing of the past on recordings . I guarantee you , there were plenty of performances on an everyday basis50 , 100, 150 to 200 years ago and beyond which ranged form mediocre to awful ! Even Rossini was complaining about a decline in opera singing late in life .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

superhorn said:


> Evidence from the past in singing can be very misleading . We can hear only a tiny fraction of all the singing of the past on recordings . I guarantee you , there were plenty of performances on an everyday basis50 , 100, 150 to 200 years ago and beyond which ranged form mediocre to awful ! Even Rossini was complaining about a decline in opera singing late in life .


I don't think evidence from the past is misleading if we know what we're trying to show. If we have only a tiny fraction of all the singing of the past, it's safe to assume that there were even more great singers than we can hear or hear of. I'm still discovering recordings by superb singers whose names are not familiar but who outsing most of the supposed best singers of the present. The fact that there have always been poor and mediocre singers is indisputable but unimportant. What's important in these discussions is that there were many supremely accomplished singers before the public in 1921, even on the recorded evidence, and very few in 2021.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Indeed, there actually are a ton of opera recordings from the past. Just look at Opera Depot's catalogue (and they keep getting more). Live recordings are plentiful going way back, especially with opera houses like the MET that have been broadcasting live performances for many decades. Like Woodduck says, I'm finding various lesser-known recordings all the time. While it may be true that if you go back before the 1930s or so, recordings of anything more than excerpts are rare, but even so you can hear an aria sung by many singers from the time, not only from the likes of Caruso but also many singers most have never heard of. So it's not like we are only hearing the superlatives of the past. And many recordings that were previously locked away have recently been made accessible. More will likely come to the surface in the future also. So no, I don't think there is any lack of recorded material to base our findings on. In fact, we have a virtually inexhaustible amount.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

superhorn said:


> Evidence from the past in singing can be very misleading . We can hear only a tiny fraction of all the singing of the past on recordings . I guarantee you , there were plenty of performances on an everyday basis50 , 100, 150 to 200 years ago and beyond which ranged form mediocre to awful ! Even Rossini was complaining about a decline in opera singing late in life .


In addition to the other responses here, I would like to add you can circumnavigate this problem by just comparing only the top singers of each era which have surely been recorded. I do agree nostalgia is a problem, but with the advent of recordings, we now have hard evidence to counteract this.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> It all happened during quarantine lol. Long story short, my trajectory was as a Wagner singer, but in the last year+ my top opened up and it was again time for me to take a serious look at Verdi. I started paying very close attention to recordings, opinions, and singers mentioned in the Verdi Baritone thread. It was clear that the level has dropped significantly over the years. What stood out to me was the effortless nature of the historical singers vocal production when compared to voices of today. So I spent all of my practice time striving for that. I went back to the basics with scales and exercises trying to sing as easily as I speak, like Battistini and Plancon (my two faves). It went well. I took what I had discovered to my teacher and she was extremely pleased. Now I can sing piano all the way to the top of my range. Before I couldn't. Now I have a good trill. Before I didn't. I used to have a tendency to push. Now I don't. My legato is seamless. Before it was inconsistent. Everything about my singing has improved since I decided to model it after my bel canto heroes





Bonetan said:


> I may look back and say that that thread changed my life. It came at exactly the right time and set me on the path I needed to be on.


What a fantastic testament to the value TC has. I completely concur. I have a degree in music and am a classically trained pianist. I haven't played in almost 2 decades (consistently. Sporadically here and there, but nothing to "keep my chops up."). There are people on here that I have learned a great deal from regarding piano. Not so much of technique, but different ways to listen to certain performances. It has made me a better listener. It goes to show, that no matter how much you know (or think you know), there is always PLENTY more to learn.

I just happened upon this thread today. I have never been in the opera section of TC before. But as I type this, I am listening to a recording I may have listened to once before, yet I've had it for probably 20+ years: "La Tebaldi" I am enjoying it. I have never been a huge Opera fan. I thought my old boss in classical music management, Harold Shaw, summed up the problem with Opera the best: "The problem with a lot of Opera is you either have great singers who can't act worth a damn or you have great actors who can't sing worth a damn." I still LOL when I remember that line. This is what he said when I asked if he was going to an Opera that one of our singers (Jessye Norman, RIP) was performing that night. He gave a very reluctant "yeah... I have to." When I asked why the reluctance because I thought he was a big Opera Fan, he responded that he'd been to hundreds and now he'd rather listen to a great Opera recording than hear one live. Then he gave that line.

Anyway, sorry for the digression. While listening to Renata, I had many of the same OP's questions as well, and came to the best source of information that I know of: TC. It truly is a great place to learn, listen, discover, interact with some great people, and even ruffle a few feathers now and then to keep things interesting! Just in this thread alone, I have learned a great deal.

V


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