# Why don't women record Bartok's piano concertos?



## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

Besides the third piano concerto, I cannot find recordings by women. Did he write them so that women could not play them? If you know of recordings by women (besides the third concerto) please let me know.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Scherzi Cat said:


> Besides the third piano concerto, I cannot find recordings by women. Did he write them so that women could not play them? If you know of recordings by women (besides the third concerto) please let me know.


I have no answer for you, although the fine Hungarian pianist Edith Farnadi recorded the 2nd and 3rd concertos with Hermann Scherchen and the Vienna State Opera Orchestra, and she recorded much of Bartok's solo piano music as well. Martha Argerich seems only to have recorded the 3rd, though with her phenomenal technique, I very much doubt she was incapable of playing the first two.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

*Bartók: Piano Concertos Nos. 2, 3 & Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta*

Edith Farnadi
Wiener Philharmoniker, Swedish Radio Orchestra, Hermann Scherchen

If you want to give it a listen - Here's the link to the label authorized complete recording -



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0zRI3IMieMCvyBndyYSPEeupkeGyPV7h


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

*Elegy - Schoenberg, Bartok & Krenek*

Pina Napolitano

If you want to give this one a listen - Here's the link to the label authorized complete recording -



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mNYyy292GxImaZN5uODPLX8LlqzbOFVWc


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Single post #3 appeared twice - Deleted duplicate.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Same occurrence as above - Single post #4 appeared twice.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Women tend to have good better taste...


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Women tend to have good better taste...



. I love his pieces.


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## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

Shaughnessy said:


> *Bartók: Piano Concertos Nos. 2, 3 & Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta*
> 
> Edith Farnadi
> Wiener Philharmoniker, Swedish Radio Orchestra, Hermann Scherchen
> ...


I've run across this one in my search, but the recording is too old. To me, hi fidelity is as important as performance. Maybe more so.


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## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

Shaughnessy said:


> *Elegy - Schoenberg, Bartok & Krenek*
> 
> Pina Napolitano
> 
> ...


Again this is the third concerto. The only one I can find that women have recorded (besides the old Edith Farnadi recording). But thank you.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Scherzi Cat said:


> Again this is the third concerto. The only one I can find that women have recorded (besides the old Edith Farnadi recording). But thank you.


I didn't realize until I posted it and then when I saw the double sets of posts I was distracted by trying to understand just what had happened.

But you are most definitely right - I searched through Presto Music's entire catalogue of Bartok concertos and there was only the one for numbers 2 and 3 - I can't even guess why this might be - It's an interesting question and it's unfortunate that we don't have a way to ask a pianist why these compositions are not part of their repertoire.


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## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

Shaughnessy said:


> But you are most definitely right - I searched through Presto Music's entire catalogue of Bartok concertos and there was only the one for numbers 2 and 3 - I can't even guess why this might be - It's an interesting question and it's unfortunate that we don't have a way to ask a pianist why these compositions are not part of their repertoire.


I suspect it may be the span of the pianist's hand needed is beyond the size of most females. But that is just a guess. A more experienced pianist may look over the music and answer that question, though.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

fluteman said:


> Martha Argerich seems only to have recorded the 3rd, though with her phenomenal technique, I very much doubt she was incapable of playing


Obviously. 

Also...Yuja Wang has played the 2nd. 

I can't pretend to love it, but actually the best thing about her performance is watching her sweep away it's wild technical demands as if they were child's play.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

May 28, 2017 3:50 PM PT 

Yuja Wang dressed for the occasion Friday night, the beginning of her first cycle of Bartók’s three piano concertos. She wore a tight-fitting rose-gold metallic gown, boldly split up the middle.
She had come to Walt Disney Concert Hall to dazzle, including a high-wire act of playing percussive Bartók in seemingly-impossible-to-pedal-in high heels.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Scherzi Cat said:


> Besides the third piano concerto, I cannot find recordings by women. Did he write them so that women could not play them? If you know of recordings by women (besides the third concerto) please let me know.


Perhaps they * the ladies) just don't like them, my question is, keep this you awake at night? 
I am bloody serious,.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

The 3rd was written for Bartok's wife and has been played by many women since then. 
Of course it is (and was) the most popular and most frequently played anyway. As for the 1+2 the observation seems correct but I don't know the answer. There could be particular difficulties concerning hand span or sheer strength/stamina but this would also concern other concertos. (I am sure it is not something like doing pullups where a mediocre/average man is better than all but the very best women.)
The hardest standard repertoire piano concertos historically before Bartok are supposedly both of Brahms, Prokofiev 2, Rachmaninoff 3. All have been played/recorded by women but Wang might be one of the few who played Prokofiev 2; it seems also more "male-dominated" than Prok 1 or 3 (again, these are the most popular among pianists of either gender)


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

As for Prokofiev 2, both Beatrice Rana and Anna Vinnitskaya have recorded it. I confess to hearing Rana's (much praised) recording a little prosaic but Vinnitskaya's take on the piece is a cracker. I'm not sure why women have avoided playing Bartok 1 and 2 but there are not _that _many recordings and perhaps record companies and orchestras fear that a female pianist might sell less well in those works?


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## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

Rogerx said:


> Perhaps they * the ladies) just don't like them, my question is, keep this you awake at night?
> I am bloody serious,.


No, I sleep just fine while listening to mostly female musicians. Why all the grammatical errors?


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

That is very weird, but likely in general you see fewer women pianists because the instrument favors those with larger hands.But why the difference in Bartok in particular I can't guess.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Scherzi Cat said:


> No, I sleep just fine while listening to mostly female musicians. Why all the grammatical errors?


He's from the Netherlands - English isn't his native language but he certainly is more fluent in English than we are in either Dutch or German -


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> Women tend to have good better taste...


The Second is a masterpiece.


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## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

Luchesi said:


> May 28, 2017 3:50 PM PT
> 
> Yuja Wang dressed for the occasion Friday night, the beginning of her first cycle of Bartók’s three piano concertos.


hopefully, the they will be issued as audio recordings and not just YouTube. I would like to hear them on Spotify.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Bartók PC 2 - Idil Biret/Sir Charles Mackerras/Sydney SO


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> He's from the Netherlands - English isn't his native language but he certainly is more fluent than we are in either Dutch or German -


Yes, if I was that capable I would brag about it, but that's just me..


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

duplicate post
There might be a glitch in my browser causing duplicate posts, sorry.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Luchesi said:


> Yes, if I was that capable I would brag about it, but that's just me..


English is quite common in the Netherlands and Dutch and English a very similar maybe most similar to each other.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

bagpipers said:


> English is quite common in the Netherlands and Dutch and English a very similar maybe most similar to each other.


When I worked briefly at RAF Mildenhall northwest of London I even had difficulty understanding the local people. So I'm sadly inept with languages.
I remember on a beach in Glyfada Greece two Australians came up to us asking questions. I couldn't understand what they were asking. They wanted to know which entrance in the tall building behind us to enter in order to get the elevator. So many words we never use, and they're pronounced differently.  🤞 

added: When we spoke they understood that we were Americans and not Greeks (locals). We wouldn't know and we laughed together.


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## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

Highwayman said:


> Bartók PC 2 - Idil Biret/Sir Charles Mackerras/Sydney SO


There it is! Thank you. I shall give that one a good listen.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Luchesi said:


> When I worked briefly at RAF Mildenhall northwest of London I even had difficulty understanding the local people. So I'm sadly inept with languages.
> I remember on a beach in Glyfada Greece two Australians came up to us asking questions. I couldn't understand what they were asking. They wanted to know which entrance in the tall building behind us to enter in order to get the elevator. So many words we never use, and they're pronounced differently.  🤞
> 
> added: When we spoke they understood that we were Americans and not Greeks (locals). We wouldn't know and we laughed together.


The only thing I don't get about British English is the "ou" in everything it's the 21st century just write "color" or flavor why all the ou's LouL ha ha


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

bagpipers said:


> The only thing I don't get about British English is the "ou" in everything it's the 21st century just write "color" or flavor why all the ou's LouL ha ha


One word I caught (from the Aussies) was lift. And I remembered lift was elevator. I think it's a better term than elevator.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Scherzi Cat said:


> I suspect it may be the span of the pianist's hand needed is beyond the size of most females. But that is just a guess. A more experienced pianist may look over the music and answer that question, though.


This is very true. Even for plenty of men.

It is estimated that around 85% of women and 25% of men have hands with a span too small to comfortably play a comprehensive repertoire when using a conventional keyboard. This can lead to hand injuries and strain on a standard size keyboard.

Hailun Pianos makes top quality pianos with narrower size keys; 15.24 cm per octave, instead of the standard 16.5.

I wonder how many possible virtuosos were never able to reach their potential, because they had trouble with standard size keys?

All this because of some arbitrary 'standard' that was established in the 1880's, with no real justification for the size.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Simon Moon said:


> This is very true. Even for plenty of men.
> 
> It is estimated that around 85% of women and 25% of men have hands with a span too small to comfortably play a comprehensive repertoire when using a conventional keyboard. This can lead to hand injuries and strain on a standard size keyboard.
> 
> ...


Bartok himself actually had small hands


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Here are some others to consider,

--Piano Concerto No. 3:

Annie Fischer (piano)
Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra,
Ferenc Fricsay, conductor





Annie Fischer (piano)
London Symphony Orchestra
Igor Markevitch, conductor





Annie Fischer (piano)
Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra,
Sir Georg Solti, conductor

Monique Haas (piano)
Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin
Ferenc Fricsay, conductor





Klara Würtz (_piano)_
Janáček Philharmonic Orchestra
Theodore Kuchar, _conductor_





Hélène Grimaud (piano)
London Symphony Orchestra
Pierre Boulez, conductor

I recall that Tatiana Nikolayeva recorded the 3rd PC as well, but I don't remember the details. However, I don't think it's considered one of her more important recordings.


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## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

Josquin13 said:


> Here are some others to consider,
> 
> --Piano Concerto No. 3:
> 
> ...


Yeah. As I stated. The third piano concerto aside, few females have recorded the 1st and 2nd.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

I had never thought about it before, but you're right. I don't know a single complete PC 1-3 set by a female pianist. Every single one (that I know) is by a male pianist. In this day & age, that's kind of astonishing. 

Klara Wurtz could certainly pull it off. There are others, too.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

bagpipers said:


> The only thing I don't get about British English is the "ou" in everything it's the 21st century just write "color" or flavor why all the ou's LouL ha ha


We spell it as we say it. We don't say "color", we say "colour". When we speak we feel the spelling and it influences what we say. For many of us the simpler US spellings can sound ugly.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I've once read that it was Dutch printers being payed per letter or line who artificially complicated English spelling in the early modern era, might be a legend, though. 
But with "colour" etc. it's probably just because of the French "couleur" that was simplified in US spelling, which also coincides with the original Latin word "color" (so it makes more sense in a sense than the BE spelling)


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> We spell it as we say it. We don't say "color", we say "colour". When we speak we feel the spelling and it influences what we say. For many of us the simpler US spellings can sound ugly.


I'm from the Boston area so we'd just say "culah" anyway


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Does anyone know the percentage of male pianists who have only performed the Bartok 3rd compared to those who have performed the others? Without knowing this one can't know if the same figure for women is significantly different statistically.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Does anyone know the percentage of male pianists who have only performed the Bartok 3rd compared to those who have performed the others? Without knowing this one can't know if the same figure for women is significantly different statistically.


Likely more male pianists anyway.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

bagpipers said:


> Likely more male pianists anyway.


Yeah, just like how there are more male bagpipers.


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## JimZipCode (Feb 16, 2021)

“Scherzi Cat” is an outstanding name or handle or whatever.
I can't stop chuckling at the idea of someone who hides from the second movements of symphonies…


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

JimZipCode said:


> “Scherzi Cat” is an outstanding name or handle or whatever.
> I can't stop chuckling at the idea of someone who hides from the second movements of symphonies…


Isn't the scherzo usually the 3rd movement accept for Beethoven 9


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Interesting article on the difficulty of these pieces. And it's not only the piano parts. Bartok wanted to teach piano at Eastman but was rejected by school president Howard Hanson who wanted Bartok to teach a composition class. If Bartok had been brought to Eastman, perhaps he could have been instrumental in teaching students to successfully perform his concertos? After all, he was a piano virtuoso who composed the first two concertos for himself to perform.

Bartók’s piano concertos – the pianist’s sternest test | Gramophone


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

*Why don't women record Bartok's piano concertos?*



Scherzi Cat said:


> . . . Did he write them so that women could not play them? . . .


That sentence is profoundly disturbing for many reasons.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Why does it matter what sex the performer is?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Kreisler jr said:


> *The 3rd was written for Bartok's wife and has been played by many women since then.*
> (....)


Including herself on LP, unfortunately it's a travesty of a recording.

*Yvonne Loriod* premiered Bartok's 2nd Piano Concerto in France.* Idil Biret* performs the 2nd Concerto as well.

*Helene Grimaud *does a fine 3rd Concerto ...
*Tatiana Nikolayeva* performed the 3rd, I don't know if it was for also for LP release, but the performance can be found on you-tube.

*Eva Bernathova *recorded it for Supraphon back in the old days,* Monique Haas* recorded it with Fricsay as well,* Annie Fischer* with Markevitch.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Why does it matter what sex the performer is?


That's precisely the question. 
Obviously, males have on average larger hands, so keyboard writing demanding a wide span could be disproportionally difficult for women.
As written in the thread, there are plenty of recordings of the 3rd concerto by women, but far fewer of the first two, so the
(I don't quite understand why some people are so skeptical about obvious differences between the sexes. I am a moderately fit 50 yo male but I am pretty sure I can do more pull-ups than all but the top few percent of fittest or specially trained (like gymnasts or climbers) females because the differences in upper body strength are so immense that even very fit women struggle to do 5 real pull-ups.)


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Why does it matter what sex the performer is?


It doesn't. But it is interesting to note that in this day and age when there are a large number of prominent female soloists, very few perform the Bartok concertos. Especially the first two.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I'd guess that the 3rd has always been the most popular among post-1945 audiences, and recorded a good deal more generally too.

A quick check seems to show that apparently Ogdon, Lipatti, Katchen and Samson Francois only recorded or performed the 3rd, for example.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Scherzi Cat said:


> I suspect it may be the span of the pianist's hand needed is beyond the size of most females. But that is just a guess. A more experienced pianist may look over the music and answer that question, though.


Having just been listening to the diminutive de Larrocha playing Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto with exemplary precision, I find it hard to agree with you!


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Could it be that it isn't just Bartok but piano concertos outside the top 30 or so most performed ones are not as well recorded by women as men simply because there have been more men than women recording classical piano concertos? An example: out of 17 recordings of Busoni's piano concerto, only one is by a woman. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto_(Busoni)#Performances (not sure if this is the complete list of recordings)


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