# How turned off are you by audience noise such as coughing and "premature" clapping?



## SepticFlesh (Jul 16, 2012)

*How turned off are you by audience noise such as coughing and "premature" clapping?*

Hi, I'm relatively new to opera and was just wondering about everyone's opinions on audience noise. Personally, I don't like crowd noise too much. I don't have a problem with clapping after they've finished playing/singing but I can't stand it if they start before. I think I have a few recordings of orchestral works and operas where people start clapping before the orchestra or singer is finished! I have a problem listening to these even if the playing/singing is really good. What about coughing? I hate it! I think I also have a few recordings where I can hear coughing and it drives me nuts.

I think if a recording was supposed to be the best recording available but if it had coughing or excessive clapping, even the slightest, I would rather listen to one that's not supposed to be as good but didn't have the audience noise.


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## Bas (Jul 24, 2012)

Well, coughing is something that you cannot hold, literally: would be very unhealthy, and if someone coughes, well it is annoying, yet I can live with it (if it is a good performance). 

Clapping through pieces, or even in between movements or, if speaking about opera, acts or scenes, is just criminal in my opinion, can not stand it.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I had a slightly heated discussion with a Spanish opera lover with regards to this clip of Franco Corelli in Tosca. He said he thought it was a question of culture, and that the Italian fans were not being rude, just very enthusiastic.

It still seems to me disrespectful of the other singers, and somehow I've not been too keen on Corelli since then, he seems too much of a show-off and I prefer ensemble players. I must be British to the core.


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

Bas said:


> Well, coughing is something that you cannot hold


I've never understood why people can't simply cough into a thick cloth. Is it that hard to remember to bring one to the concert/opera hall?

Re: the OP - Classical music and opera are to be listened to attentively. A classical concert is not a eff**ng rock concert. Noises distract and impair the atmosphere. People who don't get this - or are too damned inconsiderate to moderate their behavior for those who do - are a goddamned blight. What next? Shall we wave our cigarette lighters and scream "FIREBIRD!" every few seconds. I find the pathetic need to fill every silence with clapping ignorant to the point of bizarre.

People should understand that in general soloists do not like it, conductors do not like it, orchestras do not like it, composers do not like it. The only person who thinks it should be standard is the person who thinks their enjoyment of a piece -- or in some cases, their personal amazement that they actually enjoyed it -- is more important than the genuine artistry on show. Shame on them.

And lastly: the snobbery argument comes from those who find it intimidating that they might actually have to work at something to maximize their appreciation of it. Instead of pandering to them and dragging the most transcendental of experiences down to the lowest possible common denominator we should encourage and inform, and propagate the message that classical music is nothing to be afraid of?


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

I think operagoers need more freedom of expression. If an artist deserves a raspberry or a tomato, I say give it to them.

Coughing or premature clapping doesn't even register.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Bas said:


> Well, coughing is something that you cannot hold.


This is not true. I have had persistent winter coughs since a bout of whooping cough as an adolescent. I have learned to supress coughs in concerts, and when I come to bed so as not to disturb my partner. It's a question of breathing and not allowing yourself to cough, the sensation becomes very strong but then passes.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

quite. It really pisses me off when a singer holds the last note of an aria and before they cut off the idiots in the audience are clapping and cheering over it, and the music still continues a bit afterward in the orchestra. Can't people wait till its silent?


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Xavier said:


> I've never understood why people can't simply cough into a thick cloth. Is it that hard to remember to bring one to the concert/opera hall?
> 
> Re: the OP - Classical music and opera are to be listened to attentively. A classical concert is not a eff**ng rock concert. Noises distract and impair the atmosphere. People who don't get this - or are too damned inconsiderate to moderate their behavior for those who do - are a goddamned blight. What next? Shall we wave our cigarette lighters and scream "FIREBIRD!" every few seconds. I find the pathetic need to fill every silence with clapping ignorant to the point of bizarre.
> 
> ...


I'm like that with rock concerts too. I saw Heaven & Hell and Judas Priest and was listening attentively to the beautiful (VERY LOUD) music.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

Talking, personal electronic devices (e.g. cell phone), and premature applause bother me. Other noises, not so much.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

You can suppress a cough if you really try.

But I had a really bad cough last winter & considered carefully whether or not to attend an opera. I took cough suppressants before I went & had plenty of cough sweets with me & didn't cough once. I was embarrassed by the cough sweet fumes though.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I don't mind a few coughs here and there, but too many can ruin hearing a piece of music. I once saw a guy leave as he had to cough violently, he went out and did it in the lobby, I could still hear it from the concert hall. But I think its a good thing to do in that kind of extreme case, just leave.

Clapping between movements sometimes bothers me, sometimes not. Depends. In pieces that are unfamiliar, it is excusable. I've done it myself. Especially if there's lots of movements - as in a 'new music' piece - and you don't know which is the final movement, eg. the right time to clap. Usually though, as I get more experience seeing concerts, I can see when the musicians are finished (eg. they relax their arm muscles, smile, or they look pooped at the end of a mammoth piece - eg. they're thinking 'thank God that's over!').

But what I can't stand is children who are fidgeting and stuff like that. But I have been to concerts where children sitting near me where very well behaved. It depends on a number of factors, eg. if they want to be there or not, or just being dragged along, or their age or maturity in attitude, etc.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

I've never noticed any coughing etc. The only thing which distracts me is if people/person I'm with are fidgety, complaining, doing anything... Perhaps we have a very good audience here...

I was at a concert the other day and they were playing Vivaldi's Gloria. After the Domine Deus aria everyone clapped. I did too because it was a very moving performance. I don't have a problem with clapping mid-piece if its done genuinely - I think the expression of enthusiasm improves the audience's engagement with the piece, even if it isn't artistically kosher.


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## mensch (Mar 5, 2012)

I don't get it why people only seem to cough during silent phases of the music, or it might be that coughs are inaudible during fortissimo passages.

I believe it was commonplace to banter during concerts and recitals even throughout the 19th century. Liszt reportedly refused to perform for such a crowd and demanded silence while he was playing. I'm not sure I could stomach the concert halls of yore when everybody was having their own conversation whilst some great master played his music as pleasant background noise.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

mensch said:


> I don't get it why people only seem to cough during silent phases of the music, or it might be that coughs are inaudible during fortissimo passages.
> 
> I believe it was commonplace to banter during concerts and recitals even throughout the 19th century. Liszt reportedly refused to perform for such a crowd and demanded silence while he was playing. I'm not sure I could stomach the concert halls of yore when everybody was having their own conversation whilst some great master played his music as pleasant background noise.


One Swedish musician performing in China a long time ago was a bit annoyed when the audience wouldn't keep quiet. Lots of people were talking loudly while he was playing. So he asked them to please be silent, which made them furious!!! If I remember correctly, he gave up and kept playing so they wouldn't beat him up!


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Another annoying audience noise is walking in high heels. I was at a concert once, where some woman sitting on one of the first rows got up at the end of the brief pause between movements in some symphony, just as the conductor was getting ready to begin the next movement, and walked all the way to the doors at the back of the concert hall to get out. For twenty seconds or so, the only sound heard was her click, clack, click, clack, click, clack. The conductor turned around, quite annoyed, and demonstratively waited for her to get out, but she didn't seem to notice him or the equally annoyed audience. I wasn't that annoyed though. More amazed and amused.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

What a range of responses! I remember a performance of Carmen I attended, this one lady started coughing during the card song. I was outraged. I understand if you have to cough, but during the quietest and most beautiful piece of music in the whole piece? Surely you can control yourself better than that. But I've had times when I've felt I've just had to cough, too.

What really bothers me is the cell phones. People who don't know to turn off their cell phones - or think they're exempt from that courtesy - bug the hell out of me. It's just not nice. What we NEED is some way to protest effectively without violence. I confess I'm kind of at a loss here. Usually the cell phone abuser is not right next to you, but if she were, what would you do? Hiss?


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

I think there are far worst things for the health of classical music than audiences who want to show their appreciation for a piece in between movements or before the piece is over. That's how it was done before the twentieth century anyway, and especially in light of the thread on snobbery in classical music, I would say it does not necessarily help classical music's cause to tell people that their appreciation is not wanted until the appropriate time. I'm not saying this in itself is an example of snobbery, but it's not hard to see why a newcomer would perceive it as such.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> What a range of responses! I remember a performance of Carmen I attended, this one lady started coughing during the card song. I was outraged. I understand if you have to cough, but during the quietest and most beautiful piece of music in the whole piece? Surely you can control yourself better than that. But I've had times when I've felt I've just had to cough, too.
> 
> What really bothers me is the cell phones. People who don't know to turn off their cell phones - or think they're exempt from that courtesy - bug the hell out of me. It's just not nice. What we NEED is some way to protest effectively without violence. I confess I'm kind of at a loss here. Usually the cell phone abuser is not right next to you, but if she were, what would you do? Hiss?


I hate it. I also hate people attending performaces - attired in tatty jeans or the like - and stuffing their faces with food. This happened at the Nottingham Royal Concert hall perf of a russian company doing sleeping beauty. At least 1/3 of the audience mumched, rustled - badly dressed etc etc. I wrote a letter of complain to the manager and he replied that popcorn or sweets are an important part of the evening for ballet fans at that venue.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

You know what else is annoying (mostly on instrumental recordings)? Hearing the musicians turning the pages of their music >_> I've played in both large and small groups with sheet music, and its not difficult to be quiet turning those pages. I dunno, maybe its the fault of the engineers putting mics to close to the stands or something.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm beginning to feel quite fortunate -- the opera house in my city doesn't allow people to carry food, drink, etc., into the auditorium. Prior to the performance, the (very nice) artistic director comes onstage to welcome the audience and then reminds everyone to turn off cell phones, pagers, etc., or at least put them on vibrate. So munching, crunching, and related noises, or the ring of someone's electronic gadget is something I've never heard in a performance here.

I agree that one should make every effort to suppress a cough, or if that fails, then at least to cover one's mouth with a handkerchief or tissue and do the very best to minimize the sound. If some folks begin to applaud a little early at the end of an aria or ensemble -- or what they think is the end -- I'm not terribly bothered by it. In a way, it at least tells me that we're attracting more newcomers to the opera, and that's usually a good thing.

What does irritate me no end are the blabbermouths who think overtures, or any other part of the performance, were written to provide accompaniment for their blather. I haven't had much of a problem with that locally, but have encountered it in places like the Met where one would hope people know better.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

The worst thing I ever saw was a ;ady who dashed out of s steven hough concert - vomitted on the way - onto parquet floor - which Mr hough slipped on the way out and nearly landed in quite a mess. That was bad behaviour.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

At the end of an Act in opera, I hate it when the audience start clapping before the music ends. The end of an Act is usually quite dramatic and that moment of silence at the end is very special.

I went to Seattle in January & was surprised that some of the audience got up from their seats the very moment the opera ended, even before the curtain came down. I can understand that people don't always want to see the curtain calls but I thought this was bad manners.

I wonder sometimes at people's thinking. I had a guy behind me once who started singing along, I whipped round & glared at him so viciously, he got the message. If he hadn't I would've said something.

And I sat next to a guy in Munich who farted all the way through the first part of L'elisir d'amore. After the interval I made a great show of holding my handkerchief over my nose & he sort of smirked at me but he didn't do it again. I just wonder what his partner thought.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)




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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


>


That was clever improvisation - but I thought it was a cheap response to that ******** with the Nokia. He should have played through it


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Bas said:


> Well, coughing is something that you cannot hold, literally: would be very unhealthy, and if someone coughes, well it is annoying, yet I can live with it (if it is a good performance).
> 
> Clapping through pieces, or even in between movements or, if speaking about opera, acts or scenes, is just criminal in my opinion, can not stand it.


Agree with you.
Although if a performance is really outstanding I can understand if the whole audience want to clap to show their appreciations.
Now if the clapping is done just because there is a famous opera singer or is isolated that is a bit pissing especially as you said it is done through a piece.



mamascarlatti said:


> I had a slightly heated discussion with a Spanish opera lover with regards to this clip of Franco Corelli in Tosca. He said he thought it was a question of culture, and that the Italian fans were not being rude, just very enthusiastic.
> 
> It still seems to me disrespectful of the other singers, and somehow I've not been too keen on Corelli since then, he seems too much of a show-off and I prefer ensemble players. I must be British to the core.


Corelli is the definition of Diva despite being a male.
Still was a great singer.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I had a slightly heated discussion with a Spanish opera lover with regards to this clip of Franco Corelli in Tosca. *He said he thought it was a question of culture, and that the Italian fans were not being rude, just very enthusiastic.*


Seems only natural to me the "italian" audience instant reaction to these great exciting moments of opera, I am very used to listening to Callas and other live 1950s recordings from La Scala etc and singers of that time were more vocally dramatic and caused great excitement in the audience.....gets programed into me where in a studio recording I am almost subconsciously adding applause in mind after a great climax.

Besides the awkward timing offset of waiting for orchestra to play out before applause, there is also sometimes physical reasons for instant applause because singer is exiting the stage after climax note of aria


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

stomanek said:


> The worst thing I ever saw was a ;ady who dashed out of s steven hough concert - vomitted on the way - onto parquet floor - which Mr hough slipped on the way out and nearly landed in quite a mess. That was bad behaviour.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

At the recent Operalia at ROH this happened (I picked it up on Twitter)



> What happened was this: there were 2 v annoying women - who talked repeatedly - in front of us. They were asked politely not to. >>
> 
> >>they were shushed. They kept talking. When 1 pulled out her phone (mid-aria) the guy next to us tapped her on the shoulder >>
> 
> ...


 unbelievable


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

stomanek said:


> The worst thing I ever saw was a ;ady who dashed out of s steven hough concert - vomitted on the way - onto parquet floor - which Mr hough slipped on the way out and nearly landed in quite a mess. That was bad behaviour.


Reminds me of a typical 80s heavy metal gig.


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## Dakota (Jun 30, 2012)

Yes, audience noise drives me right up the wall. I would not be that disturbed by an audience that was just carried away by something *amazing*, and would probably be right there with them but that would be a unique experience, not a habitual behavior. Alan Gilbert became my hero of 2012 when he stopped a performance of the NY Philharmonic until a cell phone was silenced: http://www.wqxr.org/#!/blogs/wqxr-blog/2012/jan/11/wild-night-philharmonic-after-phone-interruption/

I was at the Met several years ago for L'Elisir d'Amore and RIGHT at that very, very quiet beginning to Una Furtiva Lagrima, guess what? Yep, a cell phone started ringing............. fortunately it was silenced almost immediately but, honestly, some people are SUCH troglodytes!!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Dakota said:


> Yes, audience noise drives me right up the wall. I would not be that disturbed by an audience that was just carried away by something *amazing*, and would probably be right there with them but that would be a unique experience, not a habitual behavior. Alan Gilbert became my hero of 2012 when he stopped a performance of the NY Philharmonic until a cell phone was silenced: http://www.wqxr.org/#!/blogs/wqxr-blog/2012/jan/11/wild-night-philharmonic-after-phone-interruption/


Great story Dakota. What an idiot the phone owner was.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Dakota said:


> Yes, audience noise drives me right up the wall. I would not be that disturbed by an audience that was just carried away by something *amazing*, and would probably be right there with them but that would be a unique experience, not a habitual behavior. Alan Gilbert became my hero of 2012 when he stopped a performance of the NY Philharmonic until a cell phone was silenced: http://www.wqxr.org/#!/blogs/wqxr-blog/2012/jan/11/wild-night-philharmonic-after-phone-interruption/


Music exists solely as sound. Adding extraneous sounds, like phones or coughing, is as much defacing a work of art as is spitting on the Mona Lisa. When it is done out of passive aggression, which I suspect it sometimes is, it is doubly bad.

One of the best ways of suppressing coughs or rattling programmes is to _pay attention to the music_. I was at a performance of Shostakovich 5 under Dudamel a few years ago and, whatever you thought about the reading, the slow movement was received in absolute silence by the Birmingham audience.


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## Dakota (Jun 30, 2012)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Adding extraneous sounds, like phones or coughing, is as much defacing a work of art as is spitting on the Mona Lisa. When it is done out of passive aggression, which I suspect it sometimes is, it is doubly bad.


Very interesting analogy, Jeremy! I had never thought of it that way but it is sooooooo true.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

When music was largely an aristocratic function the audience - taking their cue from the likes of HRM Maria Theresa, and Catherine the Great to name only two - often played cards during concerts, drank champagne, and strolled about and listening to the latest gossip. I don't like the clapping during music in certain operas - 'number' operas, however, which have the big cadential bang on the head after every aria, ensemble or chorus almost need applause like prime time Comedy TV needs 'laugh tracks'.

Basically, though...it's very irritating.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Really, it seems to me that a piece of music is great however it is performed.

If a performance is great then it is a great performance - no matter what the audience does, taking it from a sort of hypothetical observer's point of view.

There remains the listener. If the listener prefers to play cards (or whatever), or if (s)he likes to clap if he's enthusiastic, or if (s)he likes to listen in silence until the end of the piece. Which gains the greatest enjoyment - and which has the highest _quality_ of entertainment (controversial term I thought I'd introduce there)? Is cards greater than music? Most people here I would have thought would have agreed it isn't. There remain the other two.

Clapping is a method of expressing one's admiration for the composer or performer as a member of the audience. Clapping in the middle of a piece may or may not disturb one's appreciation of the work of art. It may or may not improve one's experience if one does break out into applause mid-piece because one is so impressed.

(opinion) It strikes me it may often actually be a good idea to clap after something very good - because then you aren't disappointed if what comes after is a little bit of a let down. What I think is bad is if this mid-piece clapping becomes habitual. I think one's appreciation of the art should be able to withstand a little bit of genuine enjoyment however.

Other noises really are a pain - but probably only as much so as one is able to be distracted - not that being more distractible necessarily implies that one enjoys the piece less.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

stomanek said:


> I hate it. I also hate people attending performaces - attired in tatty jeans or the like - and stuffing their faces with food....


It's okay by me. And they can chew gum, eat popcorn, and cough, too. Note the high heels.

View attachment 6527


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

stomanek said:


> I hate it. I also hate people attending performaces - attired in tatty jeans or the like - and stuffing their faces with food. This happened at the Nottingham Royal Concert hall perf of a russian company doing sleeping beauty. At least 1/3 of the audience mumched, rustled - badly dressed etc etc. I wrote a letter of complain to the manager and he replied that popcorn or sweets are an important part of the evening for ballet fans at that venue.


Man,...you care just a BIT too much about what others are doing around you...why don't you post a picture of yourself all dressed up the way you feel folks are supposed to at these affairs? In the meantime, I'll be the guy sitting next to you in shorts, a Guy Harvey t-shirt and Crocs...cracking a fresh can of beer from my 'bookbag' every other scene.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I'm turned _on _by coughing and premature clapping.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

^Oh no, not the fetish thread again!

I have no problem with coughing. I dislike when people clap as soon as the curtain drops, let the music finish! 

Also, overeager shushers annoy me. Do not shush when there is no need to shush!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Sometimes it depends on the opera. 

I went to see Falstaff with a friend who knew it very well but who'd never seen it live. He didn't need the surtitles & laughed & chuckled in all the right places & it was a delight to hear him enjoying himself.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Crudblud;333152 Also said:


> Anyway, shushing just adds more noise, so is rather pointless.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

The worst premature clapping incident I've ever seen on DVD is at the Siegfried 1990 Met performance. At the end of the second act, the lovely cadential section where the music suddenly becomes quieter and full of chirpy birds and what not, totally gets drowned out by applause simply because the curtain is coming down while it's happening... and if I recall correctly, one can even hear someone going "SHHHHHH" during the premature applause, which lessens it slightly, but not enough.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

MAuer said:


> Anyway, shushing just adds more noise, so is rather pointless.


On the other hand I'd love to have had some usher backup when I sat next to the unwashed young woman with the constantly active iPhone, crackly plastic bottles full of vodka and water, and juicy slurpy nectarines that had to be retrieved from a handbag with a lot of vigorous rummaging. Because I was stuck in the middle of the row, I could do no more than ask her to stop (which she refused) and then after any fuss that I made would have been worse than what she was doing.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

I hate people clapping between movements of concerts or symphonies. I never experienced that in Europe, but it happened in Canada...and it was not an unknown composition. As a rule, between movements, the conductors do not turn to the public, so they should keep quiet. 
I don't mind mild coughing, now and then. But I have a disc I only played it once, with Glenn Gould and it is so annoying, as he is humming as he usually did that, and the public kept coughing. I guess it was winter, and they were swept by some flu epidemics.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

> I hate it. I also hate people attending performaces - attired in tatty jeans or the like - and stuffing their faces with food. This happened at the Nottingham Royal Concert hall perf


Nottingham lol. What did you expect 

I didn't realise people were allowed food in to concert halls. Certainly, none of the chamber concerts I go to permit food. Chamber concerts are very different: it is a select audience, usually well-behaved, and also tightly programmed. I must say, most are very well behaved in the ones I go to. It's a bit like the chamber music subforum: the members who contribute there are very well behaved. Whereas in the wider general forums.......lol.

Anyways. Poor audience having to wade through hours of sleeping beauty without falling asleep or feeling like the evil witch cursing everyone for eating apples during concert time


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> On the other hand I'd love to have had some usher backup when I sat next to the unwashed young woman with the constantly active iPhone, crackly plastic bottles full of vodka and water, and juicy slurpy nectarines that had to be retrieved from a handbag with a lot of vigorous rummaging. Because I was stuck in the middle of the row, I could do no more than ask her to stop (which she refused) and then after any fuss that I made would have been worse than what she was doing.


It doesn't work. This generation of self-centred narcissistic F* everything teenagers only think of themselves. If you ask out of courtesy, you are more likely to get knifed or stabbed by her nectarine peeler or her eyelash tweezers.

The best strategy I've found in situations like this is to cause a scene. Exclaim loudly: "My goodness!!! She's eating juicy nectarines and she's not sharing!"

Then just smile and point to her, before gracefully resuming your seat, as everyone stares at the friggin' peach princess.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Xavier said:


> I've never understood why people can't simply cough into a thick cloth. Is it that hard to remember to bring one to the concert/opera hall?
> 
> Re: the OP - Classical music and opera are to be listened to attentively. A classical concert is not a eff**ng rock concert. Noises distract and impair the atmosphere. People who don't get this - or are too damned inconsiderate to moderate their behavior for those who do - are a goddamned blight. What next? Shall we wave our cigarette lighters and scream "FIREBIRD!" every few seconds. I find the pathetic need to fill every silence with clapping ignorant to the point of bizarre.
> 
> ...


This is an American thing but it has spread. Also if you have a cold or cough don't go to the performance.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

kv466 said:


> Man,...you care just a BIT too much about what others are doing around you...why don't you post a picture of yourself all dressed up the way you feel folks are supposed to at these affairs? In the meantime, I'll be the guy sitting next to you in shorts, a Guy Harvey t-shirt and Crocs...cracking a fresh can of beer from my 'bookbag' every other scene.


Well, you are just an old scruff I've met your type before.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Couchie said:


> I'm turned _on _by coughing and premature clapping.


What were you doing at the time ?


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Lol!!!

I'm making too much noise now 

Disturbing my own listening..


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Head_case said:


> The best strategy I've found in situations like this is to cause a scene. Exclaim loudly: "My goodness!!! She's eating juicy nectarines and she's not sharing!"
> 
> Then just smile and point to her, before gracefully resuming your seat, as everyone stares at the friggin' peach princess.


I would think they would stare at the crazy person shouting about nectarines rather than the evil fruit eater. Speaking from personal experience I have seen quite a few people eat fruit, some of them in unusual locations, i've kind of got over the thrill seeing someone eat fruit. Now people yelling about fruit is rather more noteworthy.

As for audience noise, in a live performance a little bit of feedback from the audience isn't so bad. Music that inspires so much passion and excitement that you can't help but applaud is certainly preferable to music that just produces polite attention. A lot of coughing is due to people trying to avoid coughing by controlling their breathing making it even more likely, coupled with the fact that a particularly moving aria or instrument solo can make you literally hold your breath in anticipation.

In recorded performances on CD it is often the stage noises, the performers clumping about that tends to irritate me more than the audience.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

kv466 said:


> Man,...you care just a BIT too much about what others are doing around you...why don't you post a picture of yourself all dressed up the way you feel folks are supposed to at these affairs? In the meantime, I'll be the guy sitting next to you in shorts, a Guy Harvey t-shirt and Crocs...cracking a fresh can of beer from my 'bookbag' every other scene.


Well - that's the modern age for you. No respect for the art or the artists, no sense of decorum.
It's not a night in the pub watching football.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Head_case said:


> Nottingham lol. What did you expect
> 
> I didn't realise people were allowed food in to concert halls. Certainly, none of the chamber concerts I go to permit food. Chamber concerts are very different: it is a select audience, usually well-behaved, and also tightly programmed. I must say, most are very well behaved in the ones I go to. It's a bit like the chamber music subforum: the members who contribute there are very well behaved. Whereas in the wider general forums.......lol.
> 
> Anyways. Poor audience having to wade through hours of sleeping beauty without falling asleep or feeling like the evil witch cursing everyone for eating apples during concert time


It seems to happen just for the ballet performances - notably the Tchaikovsky ballets. The classical concerts are ok -


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

kv466 said:


> Man,...you care just a BIT too much about what others are doing around you...why don't you post a picture of yourself all dressed up the way you feel folks are supposed to at these affairs? In the meantime, I'll be the guy sitting next to you in shorts, a Guy Harvey t-shirt and Crocs...cracking a fresh can of beer from my 'bookbag' every other scene.


kv466 - if you were sat next to me doing that I'd have absolutely no problem at all, but wearing CROCS??? NOOOOOOO!!!!!!


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

if i was a genius right now i would compose a piece using coughs and clapping.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> On the other hand I'd love to have had some usher backup when I sat next to the unwashed young woman with the constantly active iPhone, crackly plastic bottles full of vodka and water, and juicy slurpy nectarines that had to be retrieved from a handbag with a lot of vigorous rummaging. Because I was stuck in the middle of the row, I could do no more than ask her to stop (which she refused) and then after any fuss that I made would have been worse than what she was doing.


That would have made me so angry. I'd like to think I'd have the nerve to get up & watch the performance from the aisle & when I was challenged by an usher (as I'm sure I would have been), to explain because of the unacceptable behaviour of that person, this was the only way I could enjoy the performance.

But I would probably have just sat & seethed in silence.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

stomanek said:


> I hate it. I also hate people attending performaces - attired in tatty jeans or the like - and stuffing their faces with food. This happened at the Nottingham Royal Concert hall perf of a russian company doing sleeping beauty.


I don't really care how people are dressed as long as they don't smell or haven't poured perfume all over themselves.



stomanek said:


> At least 1/3 of the audience munched, rustled - badly dressed etc etc. I wrote a letter of complain to the manager and he replied that popcorn or sweets are an important part of the evening for ballet fans at that venue.


What an awful response from the manager. I think I would have taken it further.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

quack said:


> I would think they would stare at the crazy person shouting about nectarines rather than the evil fruit eater. Speaking from personal experience I have seen quite a few people eat fruit, some of them in unusual locations, *I've kind of got over the thrill seeing someone eat fruit. Now people yelling about fruit is rather more noteworthy*.


:lol:



quack said:


> As for audience noise, in a live performance a little bit of feedback from the audience isn't so bad. Music that inspires so much passion and excitement that you can't help but applaud is certainly preferable to music that just produces polite attention. A lot of coughing is due to people trying to avoid coughing by controlling their breathing making it even more likely, coupled with the fact that a particularly moving aria or instrument solo can make you literally hold your breath in anticipation.


I can recognise an unavoidable cough like when you've got an infection but often it's just arrogance, "I'll cough if I want to" thing.



quack said:


> In recorded performances on CD it is often the stage noises, the performers clumping about that tends to irritate me more than the audience.


They're not going to tip-toe about in bedroom slippers when they're having a sword fight! :lol:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> They're not going to tip-toe about in bedroom slippers when they're having a sword fight! :lol:


That would add a whole new level of interest to our favourite Trovatore DVD. They'd have to be fur-trimmed piink ones for full impact.:lol:.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

kv466 said:


> Man,...you care just a BIT too much about what others are doing around you...why don't you post a picture of yourself all dressed up the way you feel folks are supposed to at these affairs? In the meantime, I'll be the guy sitting next to you in shorts, a Guy Harvey t-shirt and Crocs...cracking a fresh can of beer from my 'bookbag' every other scene.


In Russia - there is a strict dress code for classical concerts and food/drinks are prohibited.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

The Russians have more propriety in concerts - at least in the live recorded ones I've heard. Except during the winter whooping cough season. You'd think they'd get vaccinated before the concert.



> I don't really care how people are dressed as long as they don't smell or haven't poured perfume all over themselves.


Yay! Except for the old biddies who come in wearing their Sunday best (and this is usually Sunday, from the last century, rather than last week) with massive flower and fruit bowl hats enough to feed a family. These monstrous but delicious looking hats obscure my view from behind.

The same healthy eating brigade of fruit hat wearing concert goers, also tend to go for essence of 'Lily of the Valley' combined with musky lavender. The concoction is potent. Sit under the air conditioning side wing, which acts like a propeller to diffuse the lily of the valley perfume everywhere, I end up becoming one of those choking, coughing, spluttering audience offenders I can't stand


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> That would add a whole new level of interest to our favourite Trovatore DVD. They'd have to be fur-trimmed piink ones for full impact.:lol:.


Dima in pink slippers! :lol:


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

I get easily disturbed also when it comes to premature clapping or talking during performances. 

Unfortunatelly, due to professional reasons, i'm considerably far away from venues where opera/recitals/etc are played. However yesterday, i attended to Mozart' Requiem in a church nearby. The churched was quite packed (which i found wonderfull). 

But through the performance, there was no respect at all. A couple of cellphones ringing, people talking loudly (not even acceptable when one is simply in church), children running and playing around. And the later i do not understand. We were at a Requiem and people bring children? Neither children understand (nor should they) what a Requiem is, neither their parents listen to it (and for some of them, i thought they never knew this opus).

But what upset the most was the clapping. Near the end of Kyrie (just the last pause before the conclusion), people started clapping. Well, this for me meant three things: people were not familiar with the work, they do not go to hear it and they clap whitout knowing why (i assumed that we go with the flow sometimes. Maybe because we see that on TV?). At this point i almost exploded with fury.

BTW, this is my first post, altough i have been seeing this forum quite a while. Sorry if any grammar error may i have mad.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

dionisio said:


> I get easily disturbed also when it comes to premature clapping or talking during performances.
> 
> Unfortunatelly, due to professional reasons, i'm considerably far away from venues where opera/recitals/etc are played. However yesterday, i attended to Mozart' Requiem in a church nearby. The churched was quite packed (which i found wonderfull).
> 
> ...


Welcome to the Forum, Dionisio!

That sounds like a real nightmare performance you attended. I don't mind parents bringing children to performances IF they know the children will be interested enough to be able to sit through the performance without becoming bored (and then misbehaving in consequence).


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

I agree solidly - I have a line in the sand between coughing, unwrapping a mint (for the cough, one hopes), or zealous applause, and even shushing as it sends a signal to those in my section that there is a Behavior Critic nearby and probably helps to keep things respectable at the 'local' level. Of course, when my line in the sand has been over-reached, I just bite my tongue and concentrate.



mamascarlatti said:


> On the other hand I'd love to have had some usher backup when I sat next to the unwashed young woman with the constantly active iPhone, crackly plastic bottles full of vodka and water, and juicy slurpy nectarines that had to be retrieved from a handbag with a lot of vigorous rummaging. Because I was stuck in the middle of the row, I could do no more than ask her to stop (which she refused) and then after any fuss that I made would have been worse than what she was doing.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

NightHawk said:


> I agree solidly - I have a line in the sand between coughing, unwrapping a mint (for the cough, one hopes), or zealous applause, and even shushing as it sends a signal to those in my section that there is a Behavior Critic nearby and probably helps to keep things respectable at the 'local' level. Of course, when my line in the sand has been over-reached, I just bite my tongue and concentrate.


I got my mercifully oversized programme and held it up between me and the woman to block out some of the light, fidgetting smell and noise.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

dionisio said:


> I get easily disturbed also when it comes to premature clapping or talking during performances.
> 
> Unfortunatelly, due to professional reasons, i'm considerably far away from venues where opera/recitals/etc are played. However yesterday, i attended to Mozart' Requiem in a church nearby. The churched was quite packed (which i found wonderfull).
> 
> ...


I do sympathize with this experience, thinking back to the most beautiful Mozart Requiem I've heard (in a Salzburg church, 1990). Thankfully, this performance pre-dated a lot of today's annoying e-devices, and parents who think small children should always be seen and heard.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

dionisio said:


> Unfortunatelly, due to professional reasons, i'm considerably far away from venues where opera/recitals/etc are played. However yesterday, i attended to Mozart' Requiem in a church nearby. The churched was quite packed (which i found wonderfull).
> 
> But what upset the most was the clapping. Near the end of Kyrie (just the last pause before the conclusion), people started clapping. Well, this for me meant three things: people were not familiar with the work, they do not go to hear it and they clap whitout knowing why (i assumed that we go with the flow sometimes. Maybe because we see that on TV?). At this point i almost exploded with fury.


That shows that those clappers just don't know what is going on at all. I think Karajan would have had them taken out and shot.


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

Well, not only me, even the great Jon Vickers was annoyed at 20sec on this clip:


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

I never understand why people start clapping when the singers are not done. It is very annoying. Silence after the last note is very special. You can "get back to earth". I have to say that with most of my opera experiences with repsect to this topic is fine. Not so with other concerts. I have had so many moments where the audience has no respect whatsoever for the performers. Cellphones, talking during performance, taking pictures, people bringing babies (yes, I have seen this once, after the break when they were refused to enter again, they even caused a scene) to the concert hall.


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## belfastboy (Aug 3, 2012)

*puts hands on head* annoys me this much - coughing and the clapping lark - so embarrassing!


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Its human nature and i am not sure there is anything that can be done. You can't exactly blame young people because most of the people doing all these things are middle aged or getting on a bit!

I wish they would just make an announcement - why can they not do it? I think lowering the lights more quickly helps too....sometimes they keep low lights on for the overture and people just talk through it. And if you are late- your late! No entry! Lockdown! No plastic bags, no kids.

My major gripe is all the chatter during the overture.....its like it is incidental music and they just ignore that the opera has started so why not lean over and talk and laugh with your friends on the row behind!

Strict dress code-yes, i agree but i have suddenly found myself going to the opera when traveling and not exactly dressed for the occasion. Here in Kuala Lumpur you can't take a coat, umbrella - nothing into the music hall. And for most occasions you must have a jacket. I kind of like that.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Yashin said:


> I wish they would just make an announcement - why can they not do it? I think lowering the lights more quickly helps too....sometimes they keep low lights on for the overture and people just talk through it. And if you are late- your late! No entry! Lockdown! No plastic bags, *no kids.*


I'm going to the Bartered Bride with my 10year-old - encouraged by NZ Opera's cheap tickets for children, so they WANT kids there. But this is the first time, she has developed good concert manners and knows not to wriggle, talk or distract others. Now if we could get this message through to some of the adult members of the audience...


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I'm going to the Bartered Bride with my 10 year-old - encouraged by NZ Opera's cheap tickets for children, so they WANT kids there.


That's a good policy. Is it in English?



mamascarlatti said:


> But this is the first time, she has developed good concert manners and knows not to wriggle, talk or distract others. *Now if we could get this message through to some of the adult members of the audience*...


Amen to that.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> That's a good policy. Is it in English?


Yes it is. They said it was too hard to get an local cast to learn it all in the original, and there is a lot of spoken dialogue. Looks like a very colourful production.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

I think it is cool to be the first one to clap or stand up while applauding. That is called being a leader and confident.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mitchflorida said:


> I think it is cool to be the first one to clap or stand up while applauding. That is called being a leader and confident.


No, this is called being a pain because that type usually do it before the music is finished. They also applaud anything, good, bad or indifferent.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

It seems to me that some music should be played without applause at the end. I recall a performance of Holst The PLanets and which some idiotic people started the applause long before the heavenly choral ending (despite the shushing) and it completely ruined it.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

moody said:


> No, this is called being a pain because that type usually do it before the music is finished. They also applaud anything, good, bad or indifferent.


For a case in point try and listen to the conclusion of Tennstedt's 1983 Mahler 6 with the LPO at the RAH - if the guy who shouted knew the work well then he should have known that if he had to bark out his approval it would have been better form to wait just that little bit longer until AFTER the final note has completely faded away.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

moody said:


> No, this is called being a pain because that type usually do it before the music is finished. They also applaud anything, good, bad or indifferent.


I thought the comment was intended as satire . . . but it looks like I'm the only one who thought so.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

MAuer said:


> I thought the comment was intended as satire . . . but it looks like I'm the only one who thought so.


I thought it may have been but that comment plus Moody's response gave me a way in to moan about something that always gives me a slow burn each time I hear it. And the fact that it concerns Mahler's music means I have to be appropriately irony-free. Anyway, job done and I feel much better for it.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

MAuer said:


> I thought the comment was intended as satire . . . but it looks like I'm the only one who thought so.


You obviously don't know Mitchflorida.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

One thing that I think is rather contrived is NOT applauding between movements of great symphonies. Why not applaud and show your appreciation and thank the musicians after each movement? And I am being sincere on this. I tired of this rigid conformity to form and protocol.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mitchflorida said:


> One thing that I think is rather contrived is NOT applauding between movements of great symphonies. Why not applaud and show your appreciation and thank the musicians after each movement? And I am being sincere on this. I tired of this rigid conformity to form and protocol.


So what happens if some of the audience think that the performance is lousy, do they shout out insults and start booing ?


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

in the middle of an Allegro piece, when all instruments go silent for few seconds ... *hears a cough*

My reaction:


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## cjvinthechair (Aug 6, 2012)

Yes, read 2 of the 6 pages of responses, & think perhaps I detect a trend !
So, my 2 pence worth, summary execution for all unnecessary transgressors.
(Even I've coughed occasionally; once went out to spare people in Symphony Hall Birmingham during 'Damnation of Faust' & wasn't allowed in for the whole of the 1st half as there was no 'natural break', so if the authorities decide to be p***s I'm more inclined to be sympathetic to the cougher, as long as he/she tries to stifle it...some seem convinced it adds spontaneity to the performance, so 'bring it on' !
Idiotic clappers...surgical removal of hands (no anaesthetic) with execution to follow, of course. Well, you get the drift !


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

It is very stilted when you hear a movement of Beethoven's symphonies and you have to sit there like a houseplant in silence. People should clap if they are so inclined.


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## cjvinthechair (Aug 6, 2012)

Oh, Mr. Mitchflorida, the judge has on his black cap; but first, amputation of the offending limbs...think my blunt penknife ought to be ideal ! 
Do you know, I really don't have a problem if folk are genuinely so moved/inspired by what they've heard that they can't hold back from spontaneous applause. The delightful people who are so clever that they must be first to clap as soon as there's a moment's silence, or so foolish that they have no idea what a movement is,, so silence must mean END, are my targets.
Hey, I'll wield the penknife myself...can't say fairer than that !


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

Can you imagine someone clapping after the first movement of a Beethoven Symphony? The old farts in the audience would have a fit . . stare at you mercilessly.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mitchflorida said:


> Can you imagine someone clapping after the first movement of a Beethoven Symphony? The old farts in the audience would have a fit . . stare at you mercilessly.


So anybody who doesn't like your type of behaviour is an "old fart"? I object to that remark which is quite uncalled for,maybe they are staring at you for other reasons. Applause between movementa does nothing but break up the atmosphere that hopefully is being created.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Just imagine the cougher tries not to make a big cough and constantly in every few second, produces small coughs!


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

mitchflorida said:


> Can you imagine someone clapping after the first movement of a Beethoven Symphony? The old farts in the audience would have a fit . . stare at you mercilessly.


Hehehe well i guess i'm one of them though.

Once in the 9th, at the end of the first movement, i was so focused that when people started to clap i almost erupted. Then i understood i'd have to put with this audience in the entire evening.

The problem was that people didn't know why they were clapping. They clap because there's perhaps some universal law that i'm no familiar with that one always clap whether the concert is good or bad. I think it is instinct. Pavlov would definately explain it.

The down therm is that we loose absolutely necessary silence after the last note that we need to come down to Earth.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aah, that blessed silence....

In the case of this, it lasted 40 seconds.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

It is contrived not to applaud after a movement in a symphony is over. My understanding is that people used to applaud between each movement until someone made a "rule" that Thou Shalt Not Applaud or do anything until the end of the 4th Movement, in which case you must wait at least 3 seconds of silence , and then you can applaud for no more than 40 seconds.


Anyone caught applauding first, or being the last one to stop clapping will be ostracized and whipped into submission.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

mitchflorida said:


> It is contrived not to applaud after a movement in a symphony is over. My understanding is that people used to applaud between each movement until someone made a "rule" that Thou Shalt Not Applaud or do anything until the end of the 4th Movement, in which case you must wait at least 3 seconds of silence , and then you can applaud for no more than 40 seconds.
> 
> Anyone caught applauding first, or being the last one to stop clapping will be ostracized and whipped into submission.


Wagner asked once the audience not to clap during Parsifal. Just at the end.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

Here is an interesting article about applauding between movements. Brahams was quite upset when patrons didn't applaud after a movement and wondered if they didn't like the Symphony. Stowkowski started the cult of the conductor that frowned on applause, which impinged on his control and grandiosity.

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2005/02/applause_a_rest.html


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mitchflorida said:


> Here is an interesting article about applauding between movements. Brahams was quite upset when patrons didn't applaud after a movement and wondered if they didn't like the Symphony. Stowkowski started the cult of the conductor that frowned on applause, which impinged on his control and grandiosity.
> 
> http://www.therestisnoise.com/2005/02/applause_a_rest.html


Once audiences used to wander about and chat during concerts , would you like to see that return? I wouldn't be surprised.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mitchflorida said:


> Here is an interesting article about applauding between movements. Brahams was quite upset when patrons didn't applaud after a movement and wondered if they didn't like the Symphony. Stowkowski started the cult of the conductor that frowned on applause, which impinged on his control and grandiosity.
> 
> http://www.therestisnoise.com/2005/02/applause_a_rest.html


Once audiences used to wander about and chat during performances, would you like to bring that back?
Also I am quite sure that Stokowski was responsible for no such thing.
I thought I'd cancelled the above post.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

moody said:


> Once audiences used to wander about and chat during concerts , would you like to see that return? I wouldn't be surprised.


Reductio ad absurdum


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mitchflorida said:


> Reductio ad absurdum


You just copied that off someone else.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

moody said:


> You just copied that off someone else.


Hehehehhehehe

It would be a tremendous schock for us to experience, let's say, an opera in the 18th century. Opera, back then, was as a social place as any bar or disco where we go nowadays. Thus the audience was very different from today's.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

That's one of the reasons people don't go to Symphonies that much any more. If you need total silence, buy a CD version of a work and listen to it at home. Problem solved. No one clapping or coughing.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mitchflorida said:


> That's one of the reasons people don't go to Symphonies that much any more. If you need total silence, buy a CD version of a work and listen to it at home. Problem solved. No one clapping or coughing.


It isn't the reason at all--perhaps it's because of people behaving in the way that you advocate. Do you also cause a rumpus in the cinema and the theatre?


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

moody said:


> It isn't the reason at all--perhaps it's because of people behaving in the way that you advocate. Do you also cause a rumpus in the cinema and the theatre?


Reductio ad absurdum


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mitchflorida said:


> Here is an interesting article about applauding between movements. Brahams was quite upset when patrons didn't applaud after a movement and wondered if they didn't like the Symphony. Stowkowski started the cult of the conductor that frowned on applause, which impinged on his control and grandiosity.
> 
> http://www.therestisnoise.com/2005/02/applause_a_rest.html


OMG - an article on the HISTORY of APPLAUSE. Now they've gone too far. Floggings all round!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> OMG - an article on the HISTORY of APPLAUSE. Now they've gone too far. Floggings all round!


That wasn't a fart, that was intestinal applause.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> OMG - an article on the HISTORY of APPLAUSE. Now they've gone too far. Floggings all round!


All we need know is an article on History of Coughing


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

Someone told you not to clap after a Concerto or Symphony movement, and you think it came down from God. It just started a few decades ago.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mitchflorida said:


> Someone told you not to clap after a Concerto or Symphony movement, and you think it came down from God. It just started a few decades ago.


Well let me tell you that my first concert was six decades ago and there were no applause between movements then.
Who was the mysterious someone?


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

...And in my concert history three and a half decades now, in different places of the world, in three (and a half) Continents, there has never been applause between movements. A coincidence, perhaps, or good education of the audiences?

Principe


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

For those who like loud coughing during a live concert, may I recommend Brahms Symphony No. 1 by Wilhelm Furtwangler. I was able to discern at least 4 or 5 distinctive coughs in the first movement alone. Many of these were perfectly timed to distract the listener from the musical reverie. Some were muffled , some were quite clear .. but there is probably a better selection of coughs than you can usually find in a concert of this quality. For cough lovers only . .


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mitchflorida said:


> Someone told you not to clap after a Concerto or Symphony movement, and you think it came down from God. It just started a few decades ago.


Well, sure. It came down from God a few decades ago.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

SepticFlesh said:


> I don't have a problem with clapping after they've finished playing/singing but I can't stand it if they start before.


Would applause after the first act of Parsifal constitute "premature clapping"?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It has been accepted since the Galante years that music is intended as a pleasant background for eating, drinking, and civil discourse. So whenever I attend a concert, I bring along a hamper of canapes, other assorted hors d'oeuvre, crisp crackers and fine cheese, pommes frites, wine, and so forth. Seating being what it is, I often have to ask those on either side to hold things as I eat.

Of course I offer to share food from the basket, in between frequent eructations to demonstrate how good the food is. And I try to strike up a conversation on some subject that might interest my neighbors. But alas, I am usually met with nothing but stony glares. With audiences so aloof and unfriendly, is it any wonder that concert attendance is declining?


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

Here's what I hate... when a man yells "Bravo" while the last sustaining note is still coming to conclusion. It's arrogant and it's so he can now be part of the recording.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

KenOC said:


> It has been accepted since the Galante years that music is intended as a pleasant background for eating, drinking, and civil discourse. So whenever I attend a concert, I bring along a hamper of canapes, other assorted hors d'oeuvre, crisp crackers and fine cheese, pommes frites, wine, and so forth. Seating being what it is, I often have to ask those on either side to hold things as I eat.
> 
> Of course I offer to share food from the basket, in between frequent eructations to demonstrate how good the food is. And I try to strike up a conversation on some subject that might interest my neighbors. But alas, I am usually met with nothing but stony glares. With audiences so aloof and unfriendly, is it any wonder that concert attendance is declining?


Haha, love it, Dr Johnson! We could organise some faro tables as well and be a genuine Historically Informed Audience.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Haha, love it, Dr Johnson! We could organise some faro tables as well and be a genuine Historically Informed Audience.


Those were probably the days!


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

davinci said:


> Here's what I hate... when a man yells "Bravo" while the last sustaining note is still coming to conclusion. It's arrogant and it's so he can now be part of the recording.


or "Brava"


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Doesn't matter what any of us think or feel about it. It is deal with it or sacrifice listening to anything live... not an option I think worth considering.

But I know what you mean, like, "Where are YOU listed anywhere on this program?"


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Sat through a Siegfried where the person in the row behind me kept loudly groaning and yawning, especially during the 3rd act. Really spoiled Brünnhilde's Awakening for me. Ugh!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Sat through a Siegfried where the person in the row behind me kept loudly groaning and yawning, especially during the 3rd act. Really spoiled Brünnhilde's Awakening for me. Ugh!


Awful! You have to wonder at some people's bad manners.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

My guess is that attendance at the Symphony is much down. What is the point, with digital music and such?

Operas are something else, lots to see and hear there.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

davinci said:


> Here's what I hate... when a man yells "Bravo" while the last sustaining note is still coming to conclusion. It's arrogant and it's so he can now be part of the recording.


You may hate it , but my guess is that the conductor likes it a lot. They are such egotists and enjoy the adulation.

Am I the one who yells Bravo at the top of his lungs? No, but I do admire his confidence and audacity. And if he enjoys it, who am I to object?


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Actually, I'm not sure that the conductors like it at all.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mitchflorida said:


> You may hate it , but my guess is that the conductor likes it a lot. They are such egotists and enjoy the adulation.
> 
> Am I the one who yells Bravo at the top of his lungs? No, but I do admire his confidence and audacity. And if he enjoys it, who am I to object?


I don't think davinci was implying that--rather to not interrupt the tail-end of a performance with loud interjections. I believe that most conductors would appreciate not having their performances interrupted.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

mitchflorida said:


> You may hate it , but my guess is that the conductor likes it a lot. They are such egotists and enjoy the adulation.
> 
> Am I the one who yells Bravo at the top of his lungs? No, but I do admire his confidence and audacity. And if he enjoys it, who am I to object?


How many conductors do you actually know?


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Aksel said:


> How many conductors do you actually know?


1- Rostropovich. Met Mstislav Leopoldovich several times in Moscow a few years before he died. He was a friend of a Russian General friend of my wife's. Cellist, but conductor too.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

tyroneslothrop said:


> 1- Rostropovich. Met Mstislav Leopoldovich several times in Moscow a few years before he died. He was a friend of a Russian General friend of my wife's. Cellist, but conductor too.


_Nice._ Rather jealous, I must say.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

I wasn't even considering the conductor's opinion, but it's proper etiquette to wait for the maestro's final motion that the movement has ended. (We're talking about modern-day behavior at symphony or opera).
I own a CD where some jackass yells "Brava" as the orchestra is sustaining it's final note...there's no way to edit him out of that performance. Reminds me of a rock concert; yeah, I know they don't yell Bravo at rock concerts.


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## appoggiatura (Feb 6, 2012)

I remember I went to a concert in de Doelen, Rotterdam with the Rotterdam Philharmonic orchestra and Valery Gergiev as a director. Like one second before the first notes of Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet were there, a phone rang. Very loudly!
Gergiev started, but he was completely distracted and you could hear that in the beginning. Romeo and Juliet was good, but not great. 
After that, the 6th Symphony. This was a worldclass performance... 

I don't mind noises, except for loud talking and... phones.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

No one was talking about interrupting the symphony. Rather , he patiently waited for the final chord and used that opportunity to lead the cheering, yelling Bravo, followed by thunderous applause. And you think that the Conductor and musicians don't absolutely love that?

If so, they should start performing in a public library from now on, not in a concert hall. And I say Bravo to that!


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

mitchflorida said:


> No one was talking about interrupting the symphony. Rather , he patiently waited for the final chord and used that opportunity to lead the cheering, yelling Bravo, followed by thunderous applause. *And you think that the Conductor and musicians don't absolutely love that*?
> 
> If so, they should start performing in a public library from now on, not in a concert hall. And I say Bravo to that!


Yes. Yes I do.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I'd be damned annoyed if I had carefully rehearsed a beautiful moving ending chord and some idiot had shouted just as I was playing it. It drives me bats as a member of the audience too. I like a moment of silence to recover myself and THEN thunderous applause.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

Half the time, when I hear someone yelling Bravo at the end of a live recorded performance , I wonder if it isn't the Conductor's brother-in-law.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I'd be damned annoyed if I had carefully rehearsed a beautiful moving ending chord and some idiot had shouted just as I was playing it. It drives me bats as a member of the audience too. I like a moment of silence to recover myself and THEN thunderous applause.


You sort of need a ten-second silence after certain things just to let it all sink in. Like the final chords of Tristan, Tchaikovsky six or just about any Mahler symphony.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

I remember one concert where all the "concert rules" were neglected... It was a chamber music concert, with violinist Janine Jansen who is sort of a star in The Netherlands, so in the audience were many novices to classical music and also classical concerts, which is very good. 

One of the works they played was Schuberts string quintet, which happens to be my all-time favourite chamber music piece. The audience was not quiet during the start of the performance, all kind of noises including cell phones... But then the slow movement. What happened then was pure magic. The audience got completely quiet. Everybody connected with the music and the performers. After the slow movement was finished the audience just went wild. Everybody started clapping, some people were already standing... The performers were truly moved by this raction, had completely lost their concentration and had to stop for a while. 

A very special concert indeed.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Different cultures consider this differently. For example, I've attended many operas in Russia since 1996 and not only do the audiences stand, but they start applauding while the orchestra is still playing (and not only the last notes of the sustain, mind you), they always send people to give flowers to all the female principal performers (and sometimes certain of the male principals), and the entire cast is applauded for at least two or three bows. This is irrespective of the quality of the performance. I've never heard a boo and suspect that one who does that might end up with a pummeling. Because of the large number of young people at performances (even children and teenagers), that also means that there is very poor cellphone discipline--a lot of texting during performances (with the iPhone and iPad lighting up rows) and even some muttering into their suddenly ringing cells.

You'd think this was really barbaric, but I am always impressed by the large number of young people in attendance at the most serious operas, and so I think this is just the trade-off for all these bad behaviors.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Different cultures consider this differently. For example, I' ve attended many operas in Russia since 1996 and not only do the audiences stand, but they start applauding while the orchestra is still playing (and not only the last notes of the sustain, mind you), they always send people to give flowers to all the female principal performers (and sometimes certain of the male principals), and the entire cast is applauded for at least two or three bows. This is irrespective of the quality of the performance. I've never heard a boo and suspect that one who does that might end up with a pummeling. Because of the large number of young people at performances (even children and teenagers), that also means that there is very poor cellphone discipline--a lot of texting during performances (with the iPhone and iPad lighting up rows) and even some muttering into their suddenly ringing cells.
> 
> You'd think this was really barbaric, but I am always impressed by the large number of young people in attendance at the most serious operas, and so I think this is just the trade-off for all these bad behaviors.


It's always a good thing if people somehow connect to music. Thinking about it, I would prefer a noisier crowd that truely enjoys the music, than concert goers who keep quiet but don't connect with the music at all but just go through the motions of a regular concert.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Dongiovanni said:


> It's always a good thing if people somehow connect to music. Thinking about it, I would prefer a noisier crowd that truely enjoys the music, than concert goers who keep quiet but don't connect with the music at all but just go through the motions of a regular concert.


I don't. Honestly if I've paid huge bucks for my opera I want to get lost in it without endless distraction from my seat neighbour. I don't care if they are enjoying it or not, because I can only enjoy it if they are quiet and considerate.

Tyrone's description explains to me why the worst behavioured person I have ever sat next to was a young Russian woman. At the time I wondered why she was actually there, because she paid abosolutely no attention to what was happening on stage, what with the phone and the vodka and the water bottle and the juicy nectarines and so on. But obviously this is par for the course.

Remind me never to go to the Marrinsky.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> I don't. Honestly if I've paid huge bucks for my opera I want to get lost in it without endless distraction from my seat neighbour. I don't care if they are enjoying it or not, because I can only enjoy it if they are quiet and considerate.


Well, see if I offer you any canapés or vol-au-vent next time!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Tyrone's description explains to me why the worst behavioured person I have ever sat next to was a young Russian woman. At the time I wondered why she was actually there, because she paid abosolutely no attention to what was happening on stage, what with the phone and the vodka and the water bottle and the juicy nectarines and so on. But obviously this is par for the course.


Oh, and I had even forgotten to mention the worst thing of all--the talking during the opera! At the opera last Tuesday, my wife had to tell both the row in front of us and the one behind us in the parterre to shut up! 



mamascarlatti said:


> Remind me never to go to the Marrinsky.


Sad, because the Mariinskiy is gorgeous and you'd get a chance to see Gergiev is his natural element! :clap:


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I don't. Honestly if I've paid huge bucks for my opera I want to get lost in it without endless distraction from my seat neighbour. I don't care if they are enjoying it or not, because I can only enjoy it if they are quiet and considerate.


I get that. Of course there is a limit in being annyoing and perfectly quiet...



mamascarlatti said:


> Tyrone's description explains to me why the worst behavioured person I have ever sat next to was a young Russian woman. At the time I wondered why she was actually there, because she paid abosolutely no attention to what was happening on stage, what with the phone and the vodka and the water bottle and the juicy nectarines and so on. But obviously this is par for the course.
> 
> Remind me never to go to the Marrinsky.


Some time ago I went to a concert by the orchestra of the Marrinsky with Gergiev on tour (this concert was in the Netherlands), and there was a group of russians, (groupies of Gergiev who knows) being very annoying when it appeared they were in the wrong seats. The very polite lady of the converthall had to go for backup... they would simply not move. Sadly I have seen this behavior with Russians before in different places.

The concert by the way, was very good. The sound of that orchestra is just outstanding, and live it was amazing to hear. They played Tchaikovsky, Romeo&Juliet and the Manfred symphony, some Prokofieff excerpts from Romeo&Juliet (wow ! best I ever heard that) and Stravinsky Firebird.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Interesting incident at the end of 'Missa Solemnis' from Segerstrom Hall. And Nicolas Roberston was right, Elisabeth Meister mentioned the incident in her blog.

At least whoever shouted out, waited a few seconds first.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

sospiro said:


> At least whoever shouted out, waited a few seconds first.


This concert was on my home turf. More often somebody will call out, "Next time play something you know!"


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Dongiovanni said:


> Some time ago I went to a concert by the orchestra of the Marrinsky with Gergiev on tour (this concert was in the Netherlands), and there was a group of russians, (groupies of Gergiev who knows) being very annoying when it appeared they were in the wrong seats. The very polite lady of the converthall had to go for backup... they would simply not move. Sadly I have seen this behavior with Russians before in different places.


The Russian woman with the phone and nectarines came halfway through and sat in empty seat next to me half way through. And she refused to stop texting and making noise etc when I asked her to. Obviously just a completely different way of behaving at concerts. I ended up using my mercifully large programme as a sort of shield against the side of my face between me and her.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Jessica Duchen - 'getting tough on blackberry man'. I agree. The only way is to boot them out.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

sospiro said:


> Jessica Duchen - 'getting tough on blackberry man'. I agree. The only way is to boot them out.


Annie, we left out one fun detail from our respective visits to the Zurich Opera House: as a gentle, wordless, multi-lingual cell phone reminder before curtain, the percussion player in the orchestra pit played a live version of that Apple "bamboo" ringtone on the xylophone. So typically Swiss: effective and efficient.

I liked the vigiliance of the well-trained and formidable ushers at the Royal Opera House in Muscat, Oman. When the lights went down, they would walk the aisle like a flight attendant monitoring each row for the glow of illicit cell phones. Offenders were sought out, exposed, chastised and made an example of with the glare of a bright halogen flashlight in their face.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

sospiro said:


> Jessica Duchen - 'getting tough on blackberry man'. I agree. The only way is to boot them out.


Actually, I find that much worse than "*Blackberry* man" is "*iPhone* woman/girl". OK, don't mean to be sexist _(my wife has an iPhone--but perhaps I am saying this because of her!!!)_. 

But seriously, being a businessperson myself, I tend to see the few remaining Blackberry hold-outs as being well-behaved and polite in general. However, iPhone users (both men and women) seem to have serious self-control issues!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> The Russian woman with the phone and nectarines came halfway through and sat in empty seat next to me half way through. And she refused to stop texting and making noise etc when I asked her to. Obviously just a completely different way of behaving at concerts. I ended up using my mercifully large programme as a sort of shield against the side of my face between me and her.


Sadly this is typical.  Sometimes, I've found that they will even feign an inability to understand English even when in America! 

I have taken to yelling at them in Russian. This usually stuns them into (temporary) silence. Of course, it is much more effective when my wife is around. She can in 10-15 well chosen words in Russian, cut them to their core and she is not shy to do this _(as she did in silencing two rows at the opera house last Tuesday)_! :lol:


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Dongiovanni said:


> Some time ago I went to a concert by the orchestra of the Marrinsky with Gergiev on tour (this concert was in the Netherlands), and there was a group of russians, (groupies of Gergiev who knows) being very annoying when it appeared they were in the wrong seats. The very polite lady of the converthall had to go for backup... they would simply not move. Sadly I have seen this behavior with Russians before in different places.


Having been in and out of Russia for the last 19 years and having spent 70+ cumulative months there, I'd have to say, I now sadly accept this as "cultural ignorance" on their part. Or if I want to be kinder, I mentally substitute for "ignorance", "_naiveté_".


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Cavaradossi said:


> Annie, we left out one fun detail from our respective visits to the Zurich Opera House: as a gentle, wordless, multi-lingual cell phone reminder before curtain, the percussion player in the orchestra pit played a live version of that Apple "bamboo" ringtone on the xylophone. So typically Swiss: effective and efficient.


:lol: I heard that but didn't realise what it was!



Cavaradossi said:


> I liked the vigiliance of the well-trained and formidable ushers at the Royal Opera House in Muscat, Oman. When the lights went down, they would walk the aisle like a flight attendant monitoring each row for the glow of illicit cell phones. Offenders were sought out, exposed, chastised and made an example of with the glare of a bright halogen flashlight in their face.


Now THAT'S the sort of rules we need everywhere.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

tyroneslothrop said:


> ... I tend to see the few remaining Blackberry hold-outs as being well-behaved and polite in general ...


 ... as a Blackberry user, I thank you!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I wish every opera fan could be as lucky as I was when I saw _Les Troyens_ in London. I sat behind Natalie in our box & I swear she never moved during the 4½ hours of opera. Actually I lie, she did move. Once. She jumped when the horse breathed fire but apart from that I thought she'd fallen asleep.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> IActually I lie, she did move. Once. She jumped when the horse breathed fire but apart from that I thought she'd fallen asleep.


Nearly scorched my eyebrows off, that fire!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

sospiro said:


> Now THAT'S the sort of rules we need everywhere.


How about a no snoring rule? _Parto, parto_ in La Clemenza di Tito was just interrupted by loud snoring!!! Horror!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> How about a no snoring rule? _Parto, parto_ in La Clemenza di Tito was just interrupted by loud snoring!!! Horror!


Oh no! The pits!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Nearly scorched my eyebrows off, that fire!


I bet it was rather warm for some of the artists as well!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Speaking of annoying audience behavior, was anyone else annoyed by the early house applause that came at the end of _Non piu di fiori_ in yesterday's Met in HD broadcast of La Clemenza di Tito? That was definitely a "moment spoiled" for me, almost as much as the *LOUD* snoring (in the theatre I was in) during _Parto, parto_.

By the way, the miscreant in the above-mentioned case was a very elderly gentleman that had brought all the comforts of home to the theater, including a nice blanket and comforter with a pillow.  He was only missing bed, sleeping gown & cap or he could have replayed the bed scene from Willie Wonka & the Chocolate Factory. Some might say that it was no wonder this gentleman was snoring--he was using _Parto, parto_ as a lullaby! I would have loved to see what the house would have thought about that if he had tried to pull that off there! :lol:


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Speaking of annoying audience behavior, was anyone else annoyed by the early house applause that came at the end of _Non piu di fiori_ in yesterday's Met in HD broadcast of La Clemenza di Tito? That was definitely a "moment spoiled" for me, almost as much as the *LOUD* snoring (in the theatre I was in) during _Parto, parto_.
> 
> By the way, the miscreant in the above-mentioned case was a very elderly gentleman that had brought all the comforts of home to the theater, including a nice blanket and comforter with a pillow.  He was only missing bed, sleeping gown & cap or he could have replayed the bed scene from Willie Wonka & the Chocolate Factory. Some might say that it was no wonder this gentleman was snoring--he was using _Parto, parto_ as a lullaby! I would have loved to see what the house would have thought about that if he had tried to pull that off there! :lol:


How annoying for the others in the audience. If this gent wanted to take a nap, he should have stayed home.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Actually I am known to take a blanket to the cinema where I go for the HDs because the airconditioning renders it pretty much sub-antarctic. But i promise I NEVER snore.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Well some promising news to report on the early clapping front: I was at the Simon Bolivar Symphony Orchestra concert here in Chicago last night and Maestro Dudamel himself and the majority of the audience took a firn stand against it. The piece was Strauss' Alpine Symphony, which begins and ends in deepest, darkest night. When the early clappers made their bid to prematurely undo the spell which Dudamel and the orchestra just spent 45 minutes weaving in just a few seconds, the maestro remained facing the orchestra, hands solemnly clasped. The applause began to spread to perhaps a hundred or two, but Dudamel's steadfastness, and that of the majority of the audience, quashed the clappers in their tracks and a few more moments of blessed, profoundest silence prevailed.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mitchflorida said:


> You may hate it , but my guess is that the conductor likes it a lot. They are such egotists and enjoy the adulation.





Cavaradossi said:


> Well some promising news to report on the early clapping front: I was at the Simon Bolivar Symphony Orchestra concert here in Chicago last night and Maestro Dudamel himself and the majority of the audience took a firn stand against it. The piece was Strauss' Alpine Symphony, which begins and ends in deepest, darkest night. When the early clappers made their bid to prematurely undo the spell which Dudamel and the orchestra just spent 45 minutes weaving in just a few seconds, *the maestro remained facing the orchestra, hands solemnly clasped*. The applause began to spread to perhaps a hundred or two, but Dudamel's steadfastness, and that of the majority of the audience, quashed the clappers in their tracks and a few more moments of blessed, profoundest silence prevailed.


And that pretty much says what one particular conductor thinks of premature applause!


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> And that pretty much says what one particular conductor thinks of premature applause!


Having attended the CSO from the final years of Solti's reign, thru Barenboim, and now Muti - not to mention numerous guest conductors - I'd say Dudamel's take is more the rule than the exception. The final silence is absolutely part of the performance and at that moment the conductor's power extends beyond the orchestra to the audience. What more could an enormous ego want? The applause will come soon enough, and be all the more thunderous by contrast.

Frankly, I can't recall or imagine early applause being a problem under Solti or Barenboim, such was their implied power. Muti is perhaps now dealing with the aftermath of those intermin years after Barenboim without someone in the hallowed position of Music Director. There have been a few incidents of him dealing fiercely with extraneous noise.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I saw St Matthew Passion in King's College Chapel, Cambridge & the silence at the end was spine tingling. The conductor, Stephen Cleobury, stood motionless & the silence must have lasted for at least 10 seconds. When the applause came, it started slowly then rose to a thunder. And it came in waves as first the orchestra, then the choir, then the soloists received their applause. Just wonderful.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I don't. Honestly if I've paid huge bucks for my opera I want to get lost in it without endless distraction from my seat neighbour. I don't care if they are enjoying it or not, because I can only enjoy it if they are quiet and considerate.
> 
> Tyrone's description explains to me why the worst behavioured person I have ever sat next to was a young Russian woman. At the time I wondered why she was actually there, because she paid abosolutely no attention to what was happening on stage, what with the phone and the vodka and the water bottle and the juicy nectarines and so on. But obviously this is par for the course.
> 
> Remind me never to go to the Marrinsky.


With all due respect, why not just buy or rent the blu-ray version of the opera and then you don't have to be annoyed by all the distractions. I have noticed that when a pianist is playing a quiet part of his concerto, this seems to be an open invitation for people in the crowd to start coughing . . as though they are adding something to the concert. I haven't been to a concert in years , it is just easier to listen at home under pristine conditions.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

mitchflorida said:


> With all due respect, why not just buy or rent the blu-ray version of the opera and then you don't have to be annoyed by all the distractions. I have noticed that when a pianist is playing a quiet part of his concerto, this seems to be an open invitation for people in the crowd to start coughing . . as though they are adding something to the concert. I haven't been to a concert in years , it is just easier to listen at home under pristine conditions.


2 reasons

1. Listening to a DVD is simply not the same as being in the auditorium hearing the full acoustical glory of the singers and the orchestra. And you are prisoner of the video director, some of whom are shocking. Also I have to keep my opera viewing very discreet at home, small TV, headphones because my family can't stand it. I don't have a big home theatre with surround sound, so I get a fairly reduced experience.

2. Opera really struggles in NZ, because it's not rugby. If I, as an opera fanatic, don't make an effort to go to live performances, who will?


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

I've really never had a problem at a concert. Perhaps I'm a bit too lost in the music to really care much. When I do catch the sound of the "first cough", I always chuckle to myself. I don't let it bother me, though. I'm rather good at blocking out distractions and focusing on the performance.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Actually I am known to take a blanket to the cinema where I go for the HDs because the airconditioning renders it pretty much sub-antarctic. But i promise I NEVER snore.


No Wagner, eh?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

KenOC said:


> No Wagner, eh?


I shivered my way through the Met Ring. So did my 16 year old (she says NEVER again).


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

On the occasions that I have attended the opera, I thought one of the main draws was for everyone, especially the ladies, to wear rather spectacular outfits, tuxedos and gowns and such. Not so much for symphony, but opera yes, you should be a little dressed up.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

mitchflorida said:


> On the occasions that I have attended the opera, I thought one of the main draws was for everyone, especially the ladies, to wear rather spectacular outfits, tuxedos and gowns and such. Not so much for symphony, but opera yes, you should be a little dressed up.


Meh. If I'm sitting still for three+ hours, I want to be wearing something at least slightly comfortable.


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## oogabooha (Nov 22, 2011)

I have no problem with coughing, but I find that when people clap prematurely the audience can miss something very important that comes after a great aria or climax. However, it's not a huge deal, because actors have learned to adapt to this and hold off continuing until the audience calms down.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

mitchflorida said:


> On the occasions that I have attended the opera, I thought one of the main draws was for everyone, especially the ladies, to wear rather spectacular outfits, tuxedos and gowns and such. Not so much for symphony, but opera yes, you should be a little dressed up.


You can't generalise about this. I look respectable, but I HATE having to dress up. Like Aksel I prioritise comfort, because I'm there to see and hear, not be seen. I am clean though (another thing about the vodka, cellphone and nectarine woman was that, despite the nice tight clothes, extensive make-up and good figure, she smelt of sweat, cheap perfume and booze),


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

In Munich, I sat next to a very well dressed German who farted his way during the whole of the first act of _L'elisir d'amore_. I'd much prefer to sit next to someone in Tshirt & jeans who was clean & silent.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> You can't generalise about this. I look respectable, but I HATE having to dress up. Like Aksel I prioritise comfort, because I'm there to see and hear, not be seen.


I am with you there! When I go to see "Siegfried", for the first time in my life, I definitely plan on wearing jeans and sweater...


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## oogabooha (Nov 22, 2011)

I will never appreciate the fancy culture of having to dress up for a performance. I haven't been to an opera in a long time, but every time I see the NYPhil I'm in a sweater, tshirt, and jeans


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I am with you there! When I go to see "Siegfried", for the first time in my life, I definitely plan on wearing jeans and sweater...


You are like the people who go to church wearing a sweat shirt and jeans.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

There are a lot of factors I consider in how dressed up I get, including venue, season, seating section, even the composer. But mostly it's a gesture of respect for the art and artists. In that way maybe the comparison to church is a good one.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> There are a lot of factors I consider in how dressed up I get, including venue, season, seating section, even the composer. But mostly it's a gesture of respect for the art and artists. In that way maybe the comparison to church is a good one.


I don't agree. Dressing up at the opera is not for the performers or the musicians but for yourself and the other audience members. It is a "mutual admiration society". What in Russia would be bluntly called "face control". For the performers with their bright stage lights will not see the audience to check if they are dressed up formally in bow and tux, or informally. The performers probably care more about applause and seeing that not everyone is rushing for the parking lot as they are taking their bows!


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

Then why don't the orchestra members wear shorts and a tee shirt too . .especially the female musicians? Why do they all have to be dressed up like Penguins.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

mitchflorida said:


> why don't the orchestra members wear shorts and a tee shirt too . .especially the female musicians? Why do they all have to be dressed up like Penguins.


Well obviously performers are different from audience. Take a parallel example: I am a teacher. When I teach I make sure that I am pleasantly dressed because I want to project an appropriate and professional image, and because people have to look at me during class. But if I attend a class I dress as casually as I feel like, because I am there to learn and I don't expect anyone to worry about my appearance.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Well obviously performers are different from audience. Take a parallel example: I am a teacher. When I teach I make sure that I am pleasantly dressed because I want to project an appropriate and professional image, and because people have to look at me during class. But if I attend a class I dress as casually as I feel like, because I am there to learn and I don't expect anyone to worry about my appearance.


Exactly so! I have a few doctors in the family so I like the doctor example. In many places, doctors wear white coats, or if they don't, they at least try to dress nicely. This is so they meet their patients' expectations--or at least they don't shock their patients with T-shirt, shorts, and sandals. Yet there is nothing special about the white coat--it is not worn for sanitary reasons but is only a uniform, the same as dressing like a penguin in tails. And certainly if a given doctor were to see patient after patient, each dressed in a suit, they would wonder if they awoke that morning in the Twilight Zone! :lol:


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

I was at this concert several years ago and it was recorded live. Great concert and recording! Listen at the end of the symphony and that is me leading the applause. I think I got it just right, about a second before anyone else. Plus it didn't step on his toes at all. What do you think of my timing on this recording?


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

The great curse of the live recorded concert or opera is the "Consumptives Chorus" who try their best to get their TB like tones immortalised. Closely followed by the 'Shush Nazis' who go at like demonic air brakes on an articulated lorry from hell whenever anyone so much as look like speaking. Its the price we pay I suppose for supporting live music. At least its not as bad as at a Jazz club where the audience are wont to whoop and applaud after every bloomin solo, good bad or indifferent! Its kept me out of Jazz clubs for decades now. As far as Dress code is concerned "Smart Casual" is perfectly acceptable to me at the Opera or the Concert.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Oh, is this post back open? Well, I have nothing to say.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

The woman next to me at Messiah tonight beat time audibly and not entirely accurately the whole way through. I'm just home and I still have murder in my heart.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> The woman next to me at Messiah tonight beat time audibly and not entirely accurately the whole way through. I'm just home and I still have murder in my heart.


Release the budgies.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> The woman next to me at Messiah tonight beat time audibly and not entirely accurately the whole way through. I'm just home and I still have murder in my heart.


Oh you poor thing. That may be one of the unfortunate side effects of the proliferation of Sing-Along Messiahs in the last few decades: everyone's a chorister. I was at ours (on the orchestra side, not the chorus) last night, another performance tonight.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

Next time, bring Mace with you. A little squirt in her face will fix things.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> The woman next to me at Messiah tonight beat time audibly and not entirely accurately the whole way through. I'm just home and I still have murder in my heart.


That's awful


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Yes it was sad because it was a very fine performance, particularly the wonderful soprano.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

did you say anything to her?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

No, i just hid her from my sight with my programme at the side of my head. My standard tactic in cases like this. Every time I peeked, there she was, tapping away.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

How are you supposed to glare menacingly if you have a programme at the side of your head?


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

I guess she was supposed to have ESP and understand it really annoyed you.

Gotta blame you on this one. You should ask once very courteously for her to stop. If it doesn't and it is driving you crazy find an empty seat.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

aagh you are probably right.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

How does your local venue feel about Bitch-slapping? :lol:


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mitchflorida said:


> I was at this concert several years ago and it was recorded live. Great concert and recording! Listen at the end of the symphony and that is me leading the applause. I think I got it just right, about a second before anyone else. Plus it didn't step on his toes at all. What do you think of my timing on this recording?
> 
> View attachment 10806


I think that this is an amazing post. I wish I could have my time over again so that I might emulate you.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

mitchflorida said:


> I guess she was supposed to have ESP and understand it really annoyed you.
> 
> Gotta blame you on this one. You should ask once very courteously for her to stop. If it doesn't and it is driving you crazy find an empty seat.


The problem is that with very popular works like The Messiah the concert is usually sold out. I feel for people who are trapped next to tappers. Worse are conductors - especially when they don't really know the work nearly as well as they think they do. I find it difficult to look away from them, waiting for the next thing they get totally wrong. They seem to be oblivious of the fact that they are bring imaginary musicians in at the wrong time.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

Regarding the "conductors", people who pretend they are conducting the orchestra, at one time I would have agreed with you. But now I get some enjoyment of someone else's enjoyment. Making noise or coughing or looking like a slob is one thing, but just having some fun at a concert doesn't bother me at all. I like that they are enjoying themselves.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

A set of summary instructions called "Audience Oath" has been circulated in various places. My favorite ones are as follows:

_I will remember that music is an ephemeral sounscape superimposed on a background of silence, and that its existence is fragile.

I will not speak while the music is being performed, unless it is to request an ambulance.

If I arrive after the concert has begun, I will stand in the back of the hall until the piece currently being played has ended.

If I possess an electronic device that cannot be prevented from beeping, I will leave it at home.

I will not clap unless I'm absolutely certain that the work is over._


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

How many people have gone to a symphony and pretended to be the conductor, motioning and gesturing as a conductor of the symphony would? I personally have never seen that myself.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

mitchflorida said:


> How many people have gone to a symphony and pretended to be the conductor, motioning and gesturing as a conductor of the symphony would? I personally have never seen that myself.


Actually looking down at the audience I saw a young woman in a end seat, with a beatific smile on her face, conducting happily to herself.

Somehow I didn't mind this so much as as off-beat tapper.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Somehow I didn't mind this so much as as off-beat tapper.


"The words 'Very finely played, sir, I believe' were formed in his gullet if not quite in his mouth when he caught the cold and indeed inimical look and heard the whisper, 'If you really must beat the measure, sir, let me entreat you to do so in time, and not half a beat ahead.' "

Patrick O'Brian, Master and Commander -- "Lucky" Jack Aubrey first meets Stephen Maturin, at a concert.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Actually looking down at the audience I saw a young woman in a end seat, with a beatific smile on her face, conducting happily to herself.
> 
> Somehow I didn't mind this so much as as off-beat tapper.


If what someone is doing does not interfere with the enjoyment of the performance by others seated around him/her, then I have no problems with it. A discreet "conductor" would probably fit this definition. A tapper would not.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Last night of the Proms might be a bit dull if all these rules were in force though


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Badinerie said:


> Last night of the Proms might be a bit dull if all these rules were in force though


That's an entirely different thing as you know very well,and the antics only take place in the "arena"---thank the Lord!


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I l ike the loud clapping...


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

The very worst, and most distracting, noise I ever heard is while seeing Bellini's Norma, some woman asked the man who accompanied her to translate every word... So the whole time, they were whispering back and forth. Finally, after repeated warnings, the usher asked them to leave.

Also annoying is humming. I can fully understand being inspired by the music that you know and love, but for heaven's sake, have a little consideration for the other concert goers! 

Concert goer: "Sir, your humming is an exquisite accompaniment! I can tell that you must also be an accomplished singer; dare I say, better even than Pavarotti!"
Hummer: "Oh goodness, no, I'm not that good."
Concert goer: "Well then, shut up."

That's an old exchange my piano teacher always liked to repeat.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Being one is sometimes seized by the desire to move his hands, gesticulating--nearly conducting--I do my best not to disturb my fellow patrons by clasping my hands together during a concert.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Novelette said:


> The very worst, and most distracting, noise I ever heard is while seeing Bellini's Norma, some woman asked the man who accompanied her to translate every word... So the whole time, they were whispering back and forth. Finally, after repeated warnings, the usher asked them to leave.


 Oh that must have been awful, good that they were asked to leave but why on earth didn't they just stop!!



Novelette said:


> Also annoying is humming. I can fully understand being inspired by the music that you know and love, but for heaven's sake, have a little consideration for the other concert goers!
> 
> Concert goer: "Sir, your humming is an exquisite accompaniment! I can tell that you must also be an accomplished singer; dare I say, better even than Pavarotti!"
> Hummer: "Oh goodness, no, I'm not that good."
> ...


I'll have to remember that one!


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Sospiro, I suppose it's just habit for those people?

But it's a maddening habit. Sometimes I will encounter people in the movie theater doing similar things:

Someone misses a sentence but then asks their friend to repeat what they missed or didn't hear. Or they will even ask someone to clarify the meaning of a statement. What seems to escape them is, while they are trying to understand some sentence, they are missing five or six more. So the act of catching up puts them even farther behind.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Novelette said:


> Being one is sometimes seized by the desire to move his hands, gesticulating--nearly conducting--I do my best not to disturb my fellow patrons by clasping my hands together during a concert.


I have exactly the same habit, and to surpress it, I do the same


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Cell phones... last concert I went to it happened again :-( How hard is it to witch it off... 

An incident I read about: during La Boheme's last scene when Mimi is dying a cell phone rings. Now that would be a spoiler for me.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

Next time I go to a symphony performance, I will be bringing either a pencil or a thin stick so I can pretend to be the Conductor.

As long as I don't say anything, there is nothing anyone can do about it.

It will increase my enjoyment and it doesn't interfere with the others.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

mitchflorida said:


> Next time I go to a symphony performance, I will be bringing either a pencil or a thin stick so I can pretend to be the Conductor.
> 
> As long as I don't say anything, there is nothing anyone can do about it.
> 
> It will increase my enjoyment and it doesn't interfere with the others.


Symphony, OK, you can do that as I can close my eyes if I am your seat neighbour.

But if you do it next to me at the opera I will duct tape your hands to the seat under you.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Symphony, OK, you can do that as I can close my eyes if I am your seat neighbour.
> 
> But if you do it next to me at the opera I will duct tape your hands to the seat under you.


Duct taping would be perfectly acceptable, if the opera was sponsored by IcelandAir.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Vaneyes said:


> Duct taping would be perfectly acceptable, if the opera was sponsored by IcelandAir.


Yes that picture was in my mind when I wrote that. But I thought going that far might be overreacting!

I also thought my original superglue plan would be a bit excessive.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I think it's a great idea. Put all the compulsive phone users somewhere out of the way where they can only annoy each other.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

^That does sound like a great idea.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

@Nat - love it!


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Yes, cordon them off into a distant corner, so that they may not disrupt those who are there to enjoy the work itself.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

'Why clapping ruins concerts'

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...ures/why-clapping-ruins-concerts-8443218.html

If I may suggest alternatives. You likie-- thumbs up or a, "Yo!" You no likie-- thumbs down, or a ripe tomato.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Vaneyes said:


> 'Why clapping ruins concerts'
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...ures/why-clapping-ruins-concerts-8443218.html
> 
> If I may suggest alternatives. You likie-- thumbs up or a, "Yo!" You no likie-- thumbs down, or a ripe tomato.


I like it. Or hey - ripe tomatoes for the good performances, over-ripe ones for the not so good, eh?


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

i can't stand people coughing loudly. they should be banned. 

yesterday i saw Die lustige Witwe (The Merry Widow, ballett version). i changed seats to main floor from my box after the 1st act, but somebody coughed loudly behind me, so i changed seats again after the 2nd act. of course somebody coughed loudly again behind me. i got cold because of the coughs. 

i've seen Turandot twice in January, and after the last note of Calaf in Nessun Dorma the audience got really loud (bravos, screams, applause). i think there's a tradition of the applause after the last note. (you probably know that the orchestra keeps playing.)

it varies. I've seen Mefistofele twice without a single clap (applause were only after the acts), and Il barbiere di Siviglia (loud applauses after famous parts).


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

I have a theory. Fragile egos are threatened by the prospect of watching live actors becoming the focus of attention. Coughing is a defense mechanism to this "threat" and to the uncertainty of what could happen in a live performance. It's like they're saying: you will not obliterate me; I'm still here. Some halls sound like a consumptive ward. But have you noticed that among a group watching tv or in a movie theater, where there are no live actors, no one coughs unless they have a cold or have choked on popcorn? I remember a certain eminent Canadian tenor  and his reaction to a particularly persistent cougher. His stentorean voice snarled out: "Stop your damn coughing!!" It worked. I rest my case.

Idiots who clap prematurely or inappropriately should realize that they need instruction on opera etiquette so they won't ruin the performance for others. In one stage production of Rigoletto the baritone demanded that the ending be encored because early applause had drowned out his final note. They encored it and they drowned it out _again_! You could see he was livid. This was a "road" production and few in the audience had ever attended an opera. They should have handed out leaflets beforehand.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Revenant said:


> I remember a certain eminent Canadian tenor  and his reaction to a particularly persistent cougher. His stentorean voice snarled out: "Stop your damn coughing!!" It worked. I rest my case.






, love it! interesting theory, btw. You might be onto something.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

As one who has struggled (successfully) on more than one occasion to repress a cough during an opera performance, I can assure you that I have no desire to compete with whomever is singing onstage or otherwise draw attention to myself. The very dry air in a number of opera houses (especially in summer, when air conditioning is in use), along with some of the strong perfumes that a few audience members seem to have liberally doused themselves with can cause throat irritations. One can try having a supply of unwrapped cough drops on hand, but even they need to be kept in some sort of container such as a purse that, try as one might, will still make at least a slight noise upon being opened. At the American opera houses which I've visited, carrying food and/or drinks into the auditorium is strictly forbidden, so there's no such thing as taking a discreet sip of water, either.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I've _always_ noticed that audiences seem to cough during the quietest parts of the opera or symphony. My brother, a musician himself, seems to think this phenomenon is in some way psychological -- like people are impatient during quiet, slow music, or quietness bores them or even makes them uneasy and they react by dry-coughing.

Premature applause is irritating, though I was once guilty of this when I started to clap before the proper ending of "Caro nome" in a performance of RIGOLETTO, because the soprano who sang Gilda was so spectacular. The thing that _really_ bothers me, however, is people who talk during the opera's overture or prelude, or people who wait until the _very last minute_-- like, just as the conductor is raising his baton to begin the opera -- to stop their conversations.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Revenant said:


> I have a theory. Fragile egos are threatened by the prospect of watching live actors becoming the focus of attention. Coughing is a defense mechanism to this "threat" and to the uncertainty of what could happen in a live performance. It's like they're saying: you will not obliterate me; I'm still here. Some halls sound like a consumptive ward. But have you noticed that among a group watching tv or in a movie theater, where there are no live actors, no one coughs unless they have a cold or have choked on popcorn? I remember a certain eminent Canadian tenor  and his reaction to a particularly persistent cougher. His stentorean voice snarled out: "Stop your damn coughing!!" It worked. I rest my case.
> 
> Idiots who clap prematurely or inappropriately should realize that they need instruction on opera etiquette so they won't ruin the performance for others. In one stage production of Rigoletto the baritone demanded that the ending be encored because early applause had drowned out his final note. They encored it and they drowned it out _again_! You could see he was livid. This was a "road" production and few in the audience had ever attended an opera. They should have handed out leaflets beforehand.


That's a good theory about the coughers. There's probably some truth to it, especially in view of the fact that in my experience as well people don't seem to cough nearly so much in the movie theater.

That's hilarious about the Rigoletto demanding his ending be encored! Just picturing it is making me laugh: "You _will_ hear my final high note!"


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

attending an opera can be dangerous in the flu season, i had fever yesterday.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

How about someone blowing their nose during a concert?

Here is a clip from La Sonnambula 1972.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I take some cough sweets with me to theatre our cinema because the air conditioning makes me cough. It might be psychological but if I haven't got them on me I want to cough all the time but if they are in my pocket I'm OK. :lol:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Fritz Kobus said:


> How about someone blowing their nose during a concert?
> 
> Here is a clip from La Sonnambula 1972.


ha ha That's hilarious :lol:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I am so turned off by audience distractions, whether it be at live concerts or live movies (cinema), that I no longer attend them.

I use Netflix for movies and have a vast CD library to choose from for music.

It's a shame, but that's the way it is.

The good news is you can have my seat.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Fritz Kobus said:


> How about someone blowing their nose during a concert?
> 
> Here is a clip from La Sonnambula 1972.


How are some people so obliviously insensitive and selfish?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

That Sonnambula Recording is full of coughing too. Must have been during the cold and flu season. It was actually October 17, 1972.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Fritz Kobus said:


> That Sonnambula Recording is full of coughing too. Must have been during the cold and flu season. It was actually October 17, 1972.


Check out S. Richter's Sofia performance of Pictures at an Exhibition. One can hardly make out the piano, there is so much coughing.

For me, it's a sign of boredom.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

hpowders said:


> For me, it's a sign of boredom.


It's not just you who thinks that. Alan J Lerner, Lyricist of e.g. My Fair Lady and man of the theatre, believed it was a sign of restlessness and lack of engagement. During try outs he'd take notes of when the coughing occurred and then they'd try and 'fix' that section.

That said some people just will never get it. I've heard fits of coughing just as Mimi is lying so still….


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

People don't generate coughing from nowhere to be rude. They also don't do so because they're bored. That's ridiculous.



People do hold in coughing, or at least try to hold it in. I see this a lot at symphony concerts, where during a movement people try to not cough and then at a break between movements many people cough (or shift positions, or sip water, or whatever). But these people have been looking for a time to cough, or concentrating on not coughing for the last several minutes. 

But you can't always hold a cough in, so sometimes they happen. But, again, not because the cougher is rude. Same with blowing one's nose; you clear your nose to avoid larger unpleasantness! If you have a stuffed up nose and you don't clear it then just breathing can make sound, and you always have the risk of accidentally blowing snot onto yourself or even others around you. Blowing your nose into a tissue or handkerchief calms that.

Similarly, coughing can calm the irritation in the throat, so coughing at a "safe" time means it's less likely you'll cough when there's music playing. Plus, of course, if you're not spending your energy trying not to cough you can focus more on the performance!

That may be what Alan Lerner was talking about; for a musical (or an opera) where there are fewer clear breaks, if someone is not engaged in the story it may not feel like an important time so they cough, thinking it is like a break. But it's always going to be relative, and people will always be looking for a time to cough. For musicals (and operas, too, mostly) the clearest cough times are at scene breaks and when the show is stopped anyway because of applause.


Honestly coughing doesn't bother me other than momentarily. I am much more annoyed at talking, chewing gum*, rooting through bags** opening zippers or Velcro, and similar. These are actions people do take out of boredom, or out of entitlement. 

I find that the two worst sections of any house to sit in are the cheap seats during a dull performance, any the most expensive seats regardless of how good the performance is. Both will have people talking throughout.

I am trying to not be bothered by people being rude, but it is difficult.


* OK, fine, people may be chewing gum to avoid coughing, but gah. Some people do not realize that in such environments we can hear you smacking your gum!

** Though sometimes people root through their bags or whatever looking for a cough drop or water or something... so they're not trying to be a problem but it smacks of a lack of planning. And of course much of the time people are putting away their program, or getting it back out. Or packing up so they're ready to race out as soon as the performance is over.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Anyways, compared to the Musical Theatre audience, the Opera crowd are virtual saints.

http://theatreboard.co.uk/thread/13/bad-behaviour-show


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mountmccabe said:


> ** Though sometimes people root through their bags or whatever looking for a cough drop or water or something... so they're not trying to be a problem but it smacks of a lack of planning. And of course much of the time people are putting away their program, or getting it back out. Or packing up so they're ready to race out as soon as the performance is over.


I always try to put some mints (unwrapped) in my shirt pocket so I can easily pop one in my mouth to quell a potential cough or to address dry mouth (I try to not drink a lot before a concert so as to not be annoyed with bathroom trips). I do have a habit of coughing when I get erratic heartbeats as it tends to straighten them out. Fortunately it has not happened at a concert--yet.


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## brahms4 (May 8, 2017)

I remember reading that the NBC Symphony Orchestra(RCA)used to give cough drops to the audience attending the Arturo Toscanini concerts.These radio broadcast were also recorded.Toscanini`s famous son-in-law,Vladimir Horowitz,claimed he never coughed during any of his concerts over the decades and couldn`t understand why the audience could not also refrain from coughing!


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Belowpar said:


> Anyways, compared to the Musical Theatre audience, the Opera crowd are virtual saints.
> 
> http://theatreboard.co.uk/thread/13/bad-behaviour-show


I only read the first two pages, but other than the odd person climbing onto the stage (wow!) I think I've seen all of that at classical/opera performances.

I've had people around me taking pictures (during the performance), eating a bag of chips (only 1 oz., thankfully), answering phone calls, loudly tapping one's feet and/or humming along, and more.

And to be clear, the above examples were at traditional venues (seeing the New York Philharmonic at (then) Avery Fisher Hall or Deutsche Oper Berlin, and so on). I have very different expectations for performances in a park, or say the simulcasts to the baseball stadium that SF Opera does.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

i unfortunatley have seen similar things but I do think its more prevalent in MT, mainly because the high prices seem to attract 'tourists' with no knowledge of theatre etiquette. My dissapointing experiences in the Opera house are less frequently observed than in the West End.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Belowpar said:


> i unfortunatley have seen similar things but I do think its more prevalent in MT, mainly because the high prices seem to attract 'tourists' with no knowledge of theatre etiquette. My dissapointing experiences in the Opera house are less frequently observed than in the West End.


Interesting! But good for those opera performances, I'm sure!

I tend to find the opposite, but perhaps because classical concerts and opera performances have more dynamic range than musicals; that is they are less overwhelmingly loud. In Davies Symphony Hall (where the SF Symphony plays) the sound is such that one can hear noises made by people from all around the house. Whereas in the theater where I just saw _Les Misérables_ there could have been people whispering just a couple rows away and I would not have heard them (I did hear the people right behind me, of course).

Though, also, San Francisco is nowhere near the theater town that London is. We are better off than many cities in the United States (easily in the top ten, I'd say) but seeing theater in SF is not an iconic or touristy thing to do like it is in London or New York. Of course some visitors do see theater, but I expect most of them are from the region, and/or they regularly attend theater where they live so they know what they're doing and how most people expect them to behave.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

coughing: involuntary and doesn't usually last long. no issue here

premature clapping: if you have such difficulty controlling yourself, there are plenty of pop concerts and debaucherous music festivals where you can shamelessly indulge yourself without disrupting things for the rest of us...


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> coughing: involuntary and doesn't usually last long. no issue here
> 
> premature clapping: if you have such difficulty controlling yourself, there are plenty of pop concerts and debaucherous music festivals where you can shamelessly indulge yourself without disrupting things for the rest of us...


But there is no excuse for nose blowing other than that a bug just crawled up the person's nose.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I have been at several concerts, all recital or chamber music, where much of the audience (including myself) couldn't restrain our applause after the performers absolutely nailed a first movement. The players in all cases seemed quite happy with that!

In the good old days, audiences might loudly demand an encore of a particularly fine movement. Sadly, those days are gone.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> there are plenty of pop concerts and debaucherous music festivals where you can shamelessly indulge yourself without disrupting things for the rest of us...


tell me more about the later, I have some free time next summer:devil:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I really like those concerts where the players do barnyard imitations between movements. I tell Uncle Lem about that back home and he always gets a kick out if it.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Besides the costs, audience noise is the primary reason I´m much less interested in live concerts than recordings, unfortunately. I find it difficult to ignore the many small noises and the lack of general consideration among coughing, chatting, sleeping, moving, generally absent-minded, candy-eating or waving members of the audience.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> I really like those concerts where the players do *barnyard imitations between movements*. I tell Uncle Lem about that back home and he always gets a kick out if it.


Ummm, that could be punk rock or bluegrass, which is it?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

My specialist subject!

I absolutely hate unnecessary audience noise, I'm not so bothered by premature clapping (unless it covers what is meant to be an effective quiet ending - e.g. give the music and atmosphere some time to set in at the end of Carmelites). I find audiences in general know when to clap and when not to clap.

However there is no appropriate moment to cough your guts up or fiddle with your knicker elastic (or whatever it is that these inconsiderate types are doing right in the middle of the diva's pianissimo at the climax of her final aria). I've seen (and unfortunately _heard_) it all!

The interesting thing is that when the music is over and the applause starts these people suddenly become able to sit still and put on their best church mouse routine, most of them refrain totally from clapping and even those that do clap, do so rather half heartedly. They can't keep quiet when you are supposed to, but at the exact moment when you can make as much noise as you like they don't take part. I've said it many times, but if you don't like theatre you should stay at home.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Audience noise is an even worse problem in straight theatre and musicals these days. Half the time I wonder why most of them are there at all. They have more interest in eating and drinking and getting up to go to the loo a dozen times than on what's happening on the stage in front of them.

Mind you it happens at the Proms too. A friend of ours gets the use of a box for one Prom each year, and last year we chose Gardiner conducting Berlioz's *La Damnation de Faust*. One of the people in the next door box spent the whole concert watching a football match on his phone. OK, the sound was off, but he sat at the front of the box and the light from the phone was directly in my line of vision.

I was taken to the theatre from an early age. I was taught to sit still and concentrate, to go to the loo before the concert or during the interval; in other words have consideration for other members of the audience. It seems to me that, increasingly, children are led to believe that the world revolves around them. Is it any wonder we end up with self-absorbed adults who never give anyone else a second thought? I'm generalising of course, and this is probably a topic for an entirely different discussion, but I'm sure that's the reason audiences are getting noisier.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Thankfully it is not like rock concerts where (at least in the 1970s) sometimes people would vomit. I had a guy next to me do that all down the woman's back who was sitting in front of us. Totally gross.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Thankfully it is not like rock concerts where (at least in the 1970s) sometimes people would vomit. I had a guy next to me do that all down the woman's back who was sitting in front of us. Totally gross.


Not that I've ever experienced it, but this sometimes happens at the opera too.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Not that I've ever experienced it, but this sometimes happens at the opera too.
> 
> N.


Another reason to avoid regietheater.


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