# What is the most overrated opera you have seen?



## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

Seen not listen to, aka, you have to have seen it live.

Controversial, but I have to say Don Giovanni. Maybe because I prefer sung through Romantic opera. There are many things to commend Don Giovanni, the stronglyconstructed characters.The last scene with the banquet and the statue.

But I dislike the start stop nature of the opera, the recitative and the facts there is no musical flow until the last 15 mins.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

_Faust_.

I would have guessed that it was the production - Des McAnuff's recent one at the Met - but the DVD of the production was highly regarded in recent voting here so maybe it's just that I won't like any version of this opera.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Loge said:


> Seen not listen to, aka, you have to have seen it live.
> 
> Controversial, but I have to say Don Giovanni. Maybe because I prefer sung through Romantic opera. There are many things to commend Don Giovanni, the stronglyconstructed characters.The last scene with the banquet and the statue.
> 
> But I dislike the start stop nature of the opera, the recitative and the facts there is no musical flow until the last 15 mins.


Does the live transmission From the MET in cinema counts?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Hmmm... for me, Tosca is pretty overrated.

I never enjoyed the melodramatic plot despite the great music. And the ending is a face palm to me.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Hmmm... for me, Tosca is pretty overrated.
> 
> I never enjoyed the melodramatic plot despite the great music. And the ending is a face palm to me.


Read the plot based on your post. LOL. _This_ is a massively popular opera? Must be helluva entertaining music.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> Read the plot based on your post. LOL. _This_ is a massively popular opera? Must be helluva entertaining music.


Did you even hear the opera? Thought that you hated vocal music.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Did you even hear the opera? Thought that you hated vocal music.


_Opera. _You are not good at stalking me at all. As I said, I can bear vocal music for the most part. Even if not at long stretches.
I read the plot. Specifically the ending.

Wagner uses plot armors, does he?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> _Opera. _You are not good at stalking me at all. As I said, I can bear vocal music for the most part. Even if not at long stretches.
> I read the plot. Specifically the ending.
> 
> Wagner uses plot armors, does he?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Strauss' Salome at the ROH- not my choice, a friend had a spare ticket. At that time my children were very small, and I thought ruefully that if I'd wanted to see naked people running around shrieking, I could have stayed at home!


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


>


You're so mean for an old guy. I thought people become fuzzier with age, like Walter.

Look, I don't know my Wagner, hence my question to learn. The whole point of TalkClassical's existence: Education.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> You're so mean for an old guy. I thought people become fuzzier with age, like Walter.
> 
> Look, I don't know my Wagner, hence my question to learn. The whole point of TalkClassical's existence: Education.


Walter White? No fascination for breaking bad here.

On point, you should start by listening to Wagner in unstoppable vocal form. This box should work.










This one is easy to find on iTunes.


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

I've seen two productions of Bizet's the "Pearl Fishers" over the years and each time left the theatre thinking they should have just begun with the duet then let us all have an early night.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Probably Aida, for me. I have never been able to get through it without yawning.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Walter White? No fascination for breaking bad here.
> 
> On point, you should start by listening to Wagner in unstoppable vocal form. This box should work.
> 
> ...


Not at all. I don't make Breaking Bad references. Bruno Walter!


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Tosca's music is quite magnificent. It blows me away. When Scarpia and his henchmen enter the church at the end of the first act, the menace is wonderful. the story might be a little melodramatic, but we seldom go to opera for the plots. 

I'm hard put to think of an opera I don't like, but Pearl Fishers has one duet and one aria, so that's a good call. I second that one. I haven't always enjoyed avant-garde operas, but some are great - think Elliott Carter. Floyd's Of Mice and Men is really good,but not really avant-garde. But I see I have totally changed the topic from what I don't like to what I do, so time to shut up.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

there's an opera of Mice and Men? I need to check it out!

As the the original question: Tristan Und Isolde *ducking* .
I have not seen it live but I tried a DVD. Couldn't get into the DVD or three different audio recordings.

I will say the Liebestod IS a very lovely piece, and I like Liszts' piano transcription of it as well.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I think that most of Puccini is overrated. He was a sadist and misogynist and very much tied to his superiority complex.

I find his operas too melodramatic despite some fine but inconsistent composing. La Rondine is probably my favorite because it is the least far fetched.

Now on the other hand Verdi is just awesome. He never composed a bad opera.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Albert7 said:


> I think that most of Puccini is overrated. He was a sadist and misogynist and very much tied to his superiority complex.
> 
> I find his operas too melodramatic despite some fine but inconsistent composing. La Rondine is probably my favorite because it is the least far fetched.
> 
> *Now on the other hand Verdi is just awesome. He never composed a bad opera*.


I love Puccini but I agree with you on this one!!!! Without Puccini I may never have cracked the opera nut. My ears weren't "ready" for Verdi, but he's had more staying power once I finally got him.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Verdi kind of reminds me of the Steven Spielberg of opera. You know, not the deepest stuff ever, but such a long career that did evolve, over many different kinds of films.

I just don't particularly like Aida


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I do find Tosca overrated but it has its moments. I think one of the biggest disappointments is how there is never a sexy Scarpia. I mean, just because he's called a fat lecherous pig doesn't mean he has to look like one. (Ooh, am I being "oh so modern" again?) I want to see a Scarpia that Tosca might actually momentarily WANT to sleep with. He certainly has the sexy music in the opera.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Sonata said:


> I love Puccini but I agree with you on this one!!!! Without Puccini I may never have cracked the opera nut. My ears weren't "ready" for Verdi, but he's had more staying power once I finally got him.


Well, I wouldn't want to teach you how to suck eggs, but Puccini builds on Verdi plus verismo, plus his own vitality. He really wears his characters' emotions on their sleeves, if I can be forgiven such a tortured metaphor. And, provided it's well performed, no other composer excels him on that score. 
If I could only have one of the pair, it would be Verdi, but I'm not in that parlous position. And the figures show that Tosca, La boheme and Butterfly are always among the top-five most performed operas around the world (or maybe it's the US). There's good reason for that.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

graziesignore said:


> I do find Tosca overrated but it has its moments. I think one of the biggest disappointments is how there is never a sexy Scarpia. I mean, just because he's called a fat lecherous pig doesn't mean he has to look like one. (Ooh, am I being "oh so modern" again?) I want to see a Scarpia that Tosca might actually momentarily WANT to sleep with. He certainly has the sexy music in the opera.


Opera Australia's production last year, while rather garbled in concept in some ways, had Claudio Sgura as Scarpia, and he was great. Tall, aquiline, compelling, he could surely attract women, those who like a cold, ruthless, powerful lover. Best of all, he played Scarpia like the music, ie urbane and sophisticated, not a rutting brute.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Yes, I enjoyed Giorgio Zancanaro's Scarpia for Muti's Tosca recording, which was of a live performance in Philadelphia, and he sang it exactly as you describe - urbane and sophisticated while still sensual - and then I saw stills of the actual production and I was like "Goddammit!! Powdered old-man wig and fop costume, AGAIN!!!" Blew my mental image of the performance, sadly...


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> I think that most of Puccini is overrated. He was a sadist and misogynist and very much tied to his superiority complex.
> 
> I find his operas too melodramatic despite some fine but inconsistent composing. La Rondine is probably my favorite because it is the least far fetched.
> 
> Now on the other hand Verdi is just awesome. He never composed a bad opera.


Do you seriously consider La Boheme or Tosca more far fetched than say Il Trovatore or La forza del destino?

Anyway my vote goes to Fidelio. The first time I heard it was at a live performance; what follows an inordinately long overture (nearly as long as his first symphony) is a banal story accompanied by banal music.
It does have a happy ending - at least I was happy the bloody thing had ended.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> He was a sadist and misogynist and very much tied to his superiority complex.


Psychoanalysis one century removed and based on no actual evidence. Please. Superiority complex? The man had a reputation for being extremely modest. He often put himself down. He wouldn't get up to speak at a party if asked. He was highly temperamental, and so you'll find things in his letters that seem angry, myopic, or proud, but then he'll turn around and say something rational, insightful, or humble. Have you read his letters? How many? As for the misogyny bit, it's ludicrous. Puccini identified with his female characters and loved them. He didn't "torture" them for fun.

Anyway, the most overrated opera I've seen is _La Traviata_. Most of it is just... banal. There are some great arias, and a good duet or two, but the rest of the music isn't interesting to me. It feels thin and uninspired, especially in comparison to something like _Aida_. The party music in particular is painful. It makes me cringe every time I hear it. The story is decently interesting, but not compelling for me.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> Tosca's music is quite magnificent. It blows me away. When Scarpia and his henchmen enter the church at the end of the first act, the menace is wonderful. the story might be a little melodramatic, but we seldom go to opera for the plots.


that's my favorite part, the end of the 1st act. and I love the finale as well.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Troyens, all craftsmanship, little inspiration.
Tell beats it by a mile.
Quote Bizet" A genius with no talent."


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Itullian said:


> Troyens, all craftsmanship, little inspiration.
> Tell beats it by a mile.
> Quote Bizet" A genius with no talent."


Oh lordy, lordy. Here we go again! You can't let it rest for a minute, can you?

Bizet was SO wrong. He just didn't understand Berlioz's music, like a lot of people until quite recently. It's hard being a complete original.

By the way, have you ever _seen_ *Les Troyens* as per the OP's question?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Just answering the thread and giving my opinion, sorry :tiphat:
I hope that's ok.

I've seen it in DVD form. Does that count?
If not I apologize.
And I don't believe you need to see an opera to know it.
All my initial listening was by cd and I could judge by listening.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Itullian said:


> Troyens, all craftsmanship, little inspiration.


I would refute that by pointing to scene 2 of Act 4 - the sextet, then septet and chorus which magically transforms into the radiant duet for Dido & Aeneas "Nuit d'ivresse". If that isn't inspiration, I don't know what is. :clap:


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Sonata said:


> there's an opera of Mice and Men? I need to check it out!
> 
> As the the original question: Tristan Und Isolde *ducking* .
> I have not seen it live but I tried a DVD. Couldn't get into the DVD or three different audio recordings.
> ...


By Carlisle Floyd, Written 1969. Performed by Opera Australia in 2011, with a really strong cast, including American tenor Anthony Dean Griffey, who is apparently noted for the role. I rated it one of the musical events of that year.
Edit: I am of course referring to Of Mice and Men, not Wagner!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Loge said:


> Seen not listen to, aka, you have to have seen it live.
> 
> Controversial, but I have to say Don Giovanni. Maybe because I prefer sung through Romantic opera. There are many things to commend Don Giovanni, the stronglyconstructed characters.The last scene with the banquet and the statue.
> 
> But I dislike the start stop nature of the opera, the recitative and the facts there is no musical flow until the last 15 mins.


I will ask again; does the Met at the cinema performances count?


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

Pugg said:


> I will ask again; does the Met at the cinema performances count?


You can if you want.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> I do find Tosca overrated but it has its moments. I think one of the biggest disappointments is how there is never a sexy Scarpia. I mean, just because he's called a fat lecherous pig doesn't mean he has to look like one. (Ooh, am I being "oh so modern" again?) I want to see a Scarpia that Tosca might actually momentarily WANT to sleep with. He certainly has the sexy music in the opera.


I want to see a version of Tosca were Tosca sleeps with Scarpia and were there really is a fake execution of Mario.
Not really but I wonder why it have never happened or maybe it has. It is fun to think of at least.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

mountmccabe said:


> _Faust_.
> 
> I would have guessed that it was the production - Des McAnuff's recent one at the Met - but the DVD of the production was highly regarded in recent voting here so maybe it's just that I won't like any version of this opera.


I'm not sure I like the term _overrated_ but Faust is the one that is likely to disappoint me. It has some beautiful arias, and yet whenever I see it live it seems to drag and leaves me glad it's over.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Figleaf said:


> Strauss' Salome at the ROH- not my choice, a friend had a spare ticket. At that time my children were very small, and I thought ruefully that if I'd wanted to see naked people running around shrieking, I could have stayed at home!


I trust you're not talking about the Bryn Terfel and Catherine Malfitano Salome? That was electrifying!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> Well, I wouldn't want to teach you how to suck eggs, but Puccini builds on Verdi plus verismo, plus his own vitality. He really wears his characters' emotions on their sleeves, if I can be forgiven such a tortured metaphor. And, provided it's well performed, no other composer excels him on that score.
> If I could only have one of the pair, it would be Verdi, but I'm not in that parlous position. And the figures show that Tosca, La boheme and Butterfly are always among the top-five most performed operas around the world (or maybe it's the US). There's good reason for that.


How come La Fanciulla del West isn´t more popular in the US it is in many ways their opera?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> How come La Fanciulla del West isn´t more popular in the US it is in many ways their opera?


I think its "problem" is simply its lack of memorable tunes and popular arias: no "Che gelida manina," "Musetta's Waltz," "Un bel di," "humming chorus," "Recondita armonia," "Vissi d'arte," "In questa reggia," "Nessun dorma," etc. etc. That's not to say it isn't musically delightful. It just lacks "hit tunes."


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I think its "problem" is simply its lack of memorable tunes and popular arias: no "Che gelida manina," "Musetta's Waltz," "Un bel di," "humming chorus," "Recondita armonia," "Vissi d'arte," "In questa reggia," "Nessun dorma," etc. etc. That's not to say it isn't musically delightful. it just lacks "hit tunes."


While I am as susceptible as the next person to memorable tunes, they do often tend to put the breaks on the musical flow (assuming that there is one  ) Given a choice of a through-composed opera and one that is a collection of hit tunes connected by not much, I will go with the former (usually!). Even with earlier operas where there is much recitative, I find that my attention wanders until we get to sections which are continuous musical and dramatic development - a perfect example being the last half of act 2 of Mozart's Marriage of Figaro.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> While I am as susceptible as the next person to memorable tunes, they do often tend to put the breaks on the musical flow (assuming that there is one  ) Given a choice of a through-composed opera and one that is a collection of hit tunes connected by not much, I will go with the former (usually!). Even with earlier operas where there is much recitative, I find that my attention wanders until we get to sections which are continuous musical and dramatic development - a perfect example being the last half of act 2 of Mozart's Marriage of Figaro.


I agree with you; the stop-start nature of older operas has never appealed to me, although I do enjoy them. Puccini, interestingly, wanted to cut "Vissi d'arte," believing that it held up the action, which of course it does (leading Maria Callas to the same conclusion). His soprano, without a solo number otherwise, wouldn't hear of it, and given the powerful emotion a great soprano can bring to it, no one contemplates cutting it now. My favorite Puccini operas are, in order of preference, _Fanciulla_, _Il Tabarro_, and _Gianni Schicchi_, and the only aria from these most people are likely to go around singing is "O mio babbino caro."


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Macbeth / Netrebko . 
Each word said is one to many


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Sloe said:


> How come La Fanciulla del West isn´t more popular in the US it is in many ways their opera?


by the same logic, Madame Butterfly should be a Japanese-American opera??? I don't think so!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Headphone Hermit said:


> by the same logic, Madame Butterfly should be a Japanese-American opera??? I don't think so!


Madama Butterfly is a popular opera in both Japan and America.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Becca said:


> While I am as susceptible as the next person to memorable tunes, they do often tend to put the breaks on the musical flow (assuming that there is one  ) Given a choice of a through-composed opera and one that is a collection of hit tunes connected by not much, I will go with the former (usually!). Even with earlier operas where there is much recitative, I find that my attention wanders until we get to sections which are continuous musical and dramatic development - a perfect example being the last half of act 2 of Mozart's Marriage of Figaro.


Is this a bad thing? After tumultuous applause at the end of her arias, Nellie Melba would have a grand piano wheeled on stage and sing Home Sweet Home, before resuming the opera. Who could criticise that?*
(*said with great irony)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> Is this a bad thing? After tumultuous applause at the end of her arias, Nellie Melba would have a grand piano wheeled on stage and sing Home Sweet Home, before resuming the opera. Who could criticise that?*
> (*said with great irony)


Ah, the Golden Age!


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

It's sad, but not surprising, to see Faust and Les Pêcheurs de Perles named here. I've suggested before that it's too late now to hear French opera performed in the right style, and that this, rather than any defect in the operas themselves, is responsible for the underwhelming impression they make on listeners today (when not mercifully distracted from the indifferent singing by Regietheater shenanigans, anyway.) On the most recommended opera CDs and DVDs thread I have already recommended a 70s filmed performance of Faust with the magnetic, gorgeously sung Mephistopheles of Roger Soyer, and now I will recommend a traditionally staged and authentically sung Pêcheurs from 1960:






The singers are not the biggest stars, but they are excellent, particularly the Zurga and Nadir. The 'one aria' referred to upthread is presumably 'Je crois encore entendre', attractively sung here by Michel Cadiou, but 'De mon amie' is a beautiful melody too, and the tenor makes this into something hauntingly lovely. Unfortunately, the picture cuts out during this aria, and is pretty fuzzy throughout, but this is the only vintage film of the opera I've seen so is worth checking out, although the voices can be bettered by the 1953 Jean Fournet sound recording with Simoneau and Bianco.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I think its "problem" is simply its lack of memorable tunes and popular arias: no "Che gelida manina," "Musetta's Waltz," "Un bel di," "humming chorus," "Recondita armonia," "Vissi d'arte," "In questa reggia," "Nessun dorma," etc. etc. That's not to say it isn't musically delightful. It just lacks "hit tunes."


It have Ch'ella mi creda.
I think the main reason why some operas are among the most popular is because of coincidences. There are lots of operas that have memorable tunes but are not among the most popular.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Sloe said:


> How come La Fanciulla del West isn´t more popular in the US it is in many ways their opera?


I've always thought the reason FANCIULLA DEL WEST isn't so popular here in the USA is that visually, for Americans, there's sort of a "silliness" factor -- you know, the Wild West figures singing in Italian. Whereas when, say, English people watch FANCIULLA, they probably don't think it looks silly at all.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I've always thought the reason FANCIULLA DEL WEST isn't so popular here in the USA is that visually, for Americans, there's sort of a "silliness" factor -- you know, the Wild West figures singing in Italian. Whereas when, say, English people watch FANCIULLA, they probably don't think it looks silly at all.


Or maybe Americans aren´t so easily flattered.
They can always translate the opera.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Or possibly they just find it boring. . Americans associate the Wild West with action and outdoor scenery, not "talky" bar scenes and mountain cabin claustrophobia...


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

To me it seems that La Fanciulla del West has the inverse problem to Faust. Fanciulla lacks the big arias (Ch'ella mi creda feels no better than a Boheme cast-off), but it has one thing going for it: A decent libretto and story. Give it a sensible staging and good acting-direction and it works. I've seen 3 different productions and all have been well received and reviewed. 

As for Faust, it may be best to stick to the records. Great tunes, but I've yet to be wowed by a live performance.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

graziesignore said:


> Or possibly they just find it boring. . Americans associate the Wild West with action and outdoor scenery, not "talky" bar scenes and mountain cabin claustrophobia...


I still admire Puccini for choosing the setting even if it does seem a little incongruous - rather that than taking the easy option and writing an opera where the action takes place in the bourgeois parlours of New York or Boston.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> the bourgeois parlours of New York or Boston.


I agree that would be no fun.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> To me it seems that La Fanciulla del West has the inverse problem to Faust. Fanciulla lacks the big arias (Ch'ella mi creda feels no better than a Boheme cast-off), but it has one thing going for it: A decent libretto and story. Give it a sensible staging and good acting-direction and it works. I've seen 3 different productions and all have been well received and reviewed.


The plot of _Fanciulla_ is more fun than those of most of Puccini's operas. The heroine shelters a good-hearted bandit, beats the bad old sheriff at poker (isn't Jack Rance a perfect wild west name?), and saves her lover from lynching instead of dying in poverty or offing herself. But I think it has a lot more going for it than an entertaining story. The "hit tune" in _Fanciulla_ is not an aria but the little waltz which is developed as a leitmotiv representing the love of Minnie and Dick. Its last phrases blossom gorgeously - Andrew Loyd-Webber, public plagiarist number one, couldn't resist swiping it for his _Phantom of the Opera_ - and with its mixture of innocence, passion and nostalgia it always becomes an earworm for me the minute I so much as think of it. It's one of the few earworms I'm happy to put up with for as long as it wants to hang around! But beyond that, _Fanciulla_'s score is full of beautiful subtleties, atmosphere, and dramatic effectiveness. It's just that it's next to impossible to excerpt on recordings, and I suspect that many people who finally see it say to themselves something like "Hey, I didn't realize this was so good."

_Fanciulla_ is not an overrated opera but an underrated one.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> The plot of _Fanciulla_ is more fun than those of most of Puccini's operas.
> 
> _Fanciulla_ is not an overrated opera but an underrated one.


Personally I like ghost stories and consider Le Villi to be underrated.
Then if an opera is overrated or not is not important. There are operas that many people like that some of us don´t like but I think we can just accept that they are popular and let those who like them enjoy them.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Sloe said:


> I agree that would be no fun.


I don't know, it would surely depend on the characters involved. An opera featuring our own Marschalin Blair could be set anywhere and would be entirely riveting.

N.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The Conte said:


> I don't know, it would surely depend on the characters involved. An opera featuring our own Marschalin Blair could be set anywhere and would be entirely riveting.
> 
> N.


MB says...........



> How sweet!
> 
> I LOVE it! Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.
> 
> ...


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Figleaf said:


> The 'one aria' referred to upthread is presumably 'Je crois encore entendre', attractively sung here by Michel Cadiou, but 'De mon amie' is a beautiful melody too, and the tenor makes this into something hauntingly lovely. Unfortunately, the picture cuts out during this aria, and is pretty fuzzy throughout, but this is the only vintage film of the opera I've seen so is worth checking out, although the voices can be bettered by the 1953 Jean Fournet sound recording with Simoneau and Bianco.


You are right, but potentially it could also being Leila's "Comme autrefois, dans la nuit sombre". 

_Comme autrefois dans la nuit sombre,_
_Caché sous le feuillage épais,_
_Il veille près de moi dans l'ombre,_
_Je puis dormir, rêver en paix!_

_Il veille près de moi,_
_Comme autrefois, comme autrefois_
_C'est lui! mes yeux l'ont reconnu!_
_C'est lui! mon âme est rassurée!_
_O bonheur! Il est venu,_
_Il est là près de moi, ah!_

_Comme autrefois dans la nuit sombre, etc. _

Arguably, the most interesting part is the central one, where Leïla thinks Nadir has been following her, and the voice is beautifully accompanied by the clarinets and the strings. The evocative parts are somewhat more restrained. Then, towards the end, the singer must visit the high zone of her range, and we can hear a very skilful end with the cellos, the woodwinds and the kettledrums.

Two of my favorite renditions, by Janine Micheau and Liliane Berton:


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Becca said:


> MB says...........


Please pass on my regards to MB, roll on September!

N.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

by no means Tosca is overrated, actually it is one of the greatest operas ever written.

i have to admit disliking Tosca at first view and avoiding watching it until i've run out of operas to discover.

then i reluctantly turned to this opera and it began growing on me so i finally realised the greatness of its every piece.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

sharik said:


> by no means Tosca is overrated, actually *it is one of the greatest operas ever written.*
> 
> i have to admit disliking Tosca at first view and avoiding watching it until i've run out of operas to discover.
> 
> then i reluctantly turned to this opera and it began growing on me so i finally realised the greatness of its every piece.


Aha! I had a suspicion that _Tosca_ might be overrated. Suspicion confirmed! :lol:


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

Tommy, by the Who. Rock, yes; Verdi competitor, no.

I feel assured Peter Townsend would not get mad at me for saying that.

Tina Turner in the movie as The Acid Queen is fun, though....


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Sloe said:


> I want to see a version of Tosca were Tosca sleeps with Scarpia and were there really is a fake execution of Mario.
> Not really but I wonder why it have never happened or maybe it has. It is fun to think of at least.




I amuse myself by thinking up alternative plots (bit like a Regisseur lol). I think before Tosca killed Scarpia she had already arranged the execution of Cavaradossi, after all he was a pathetic wimpish artist. Scarpia's men never did find Angelotti and Tosca escapes with him and his sister. #simples.

Or maybe this happened?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Pugg said:


> Macbeth / Netrebko .
> Each word said is one to many


That particular version or do you think _Macbeth_ itself is overrated?


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

sospiro said:


> Or maybe this happened?


Great... now whenever I listen to Tosca I'll be imagining cartoonish "boink, boink, boink" sounds as she hits all the rooftops on her way down.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Please pass on my regards to MB, roll on September!
> 
> N.


Count, you are a Dear, and your operatic posts give me great pleasure.

- A schooner of sherry for you.


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## Fat Bob (Sep 25, 2015)

I'm afraid I may upset a few people with this but I have to suggest Eugene Onegin. It may be that the performances I saw were not fantastic (Scottish Opera) but both times I saw this I came away feeling distinctly underwhelmed. The music struck me as rather anaemic compared to the full blooded Tchaikovsky I was used to from his symphonies and ballets. 
Now to find a metal helmet......


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fat Bob said:


> I'm afraid I may upset a few people with this but I have to suggest Eugene Onegin. It may be that the performances I saw were not fantastic (Scottish Opera) but both times I saw this I came away feeling distinctly underwhelmed. The music struck me as rather anaemic compared to the full blooded Tchaikovsky I was used to from his symphonies and ballets.
> Now to find a metal helmet......


No bullets from me. I find _Onegin_ a bit of a lace doily myself, a simpering soap of the bored bourgeoisie that holds my interest only when it's sung with a refinement and sensitivity it hardly ever gets. The music is all very pretty, but not within a mile of Tchaikovsky operating at white heat in the symphonies and ballets you mention. I prefer his "number two" opera, _Pique Dame_ ("Queen of Spades"), which has fewer good tunes but a more gripping plot and great roles for a dramatic tenor and an over-the-hill mezzo.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> No bullets from me. I find _Onegin_ a bit of a lace doily myself, a simpering soap of the bored bourgeoisie that holds my interest only when it's sung with a refinement and sensitivity it hardly ever gets. The music is all very pretty, but not within a mile of Tchaikovsky operating at white heat in the symphonies and ballets you mention. I prefer his "number two" opera, _Pique Dame_ ("Queen of Spades"), which has fewer good tunes but a more gripping plot and great roles for a dramatic tenor and an over-the-hill mezzo.












Have you heard the Khaikin _Onegin_ with Vishnevskaya?

Its a lot more lap dance and a lot less lace doily.

Passionate, intense, and dramatic.

I love it.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> No bullets from me. I find _Onegin_ a bit of a lace doily myself, a simpering soap of the bored bourgeoisie that holds my interest only when it's sung with a refinement and sensitivity it hardly ever gets. The music is all very pretty, but not within a mile of Tchaikovsky operating at white heat in the symphonies and ballets you mention. I prefer his "number two" opera, _Pique Dame_ ("Queen of Spades"), which has fewer good tunes but a more gripping plot and great roles for a dramatic tenor and an over-the-hill mezzo.


I prefer Russian operas that have bearded men with ropes outside their shirts but a director can fix that.
I like the polonaise

I think Queen of Spades have more good tunes than Eugene Onegin.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Sloe said:


> I prefer Russian operas that have bearded men with ropes outside their shirts but a director can fix that.
> I like the polonaise
> 
> I think Queen of Spades have more good tunes than Eugene Onegin.


I too prefer Queen of Spades. However, I love the poignancy of Onegin, it also amazes me how the novel is actually satirising the type of romantic narratives that the opera belongs to. Tchaikovsky plays it 'straight' and pulls it off.

Not sure about most overrated opera, but I can't stand the second half of Ariadne auf Naxos.

N.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Whenever I want people to check out Russian opera, I just play this chestnut for them. Works every time.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Have you heard the Khaikin _Onegin_ with Vishnevskaya?
> 
> Its a lot more lap dance and a lot less lace doily.
> 
> ...


It needs a Vishnevskaya and a Lemeshev. If they were in the cast I'd go. But alas: Netrebko and [insert tenor] will not get me out of the house.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> It needs a Vishnevskaya and a Lemeshev. If they were in the cast I'd go. But alas: Netrebko and [insert tenor] will not get me out of the house.


That's an interesting comment for a number of reasons. I would be more interested in who the baritone were.

I'm not a Vishnevskaya fan, her voice isn't to my personal taste, but she was a great singer AND my favourite Tatiana is Netrebko, the live cinema relay from the Met with Kwiecen was an emotional wringing of a performance.

N.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

The Conte said:


> That's an interesting comment for a number of reasons. I would be more interested in who the baritone were.
> 
> I'm not a Vishnevskaya fan, her voice isn't to my personal taste, but she was a great singer AND my favourite Tatiana is Netrebko, the live cinema relay from the Met with Kwiecen was an emotional wringing of a performance.
> 
> N.


Not even Vishnevskaya in her 1950's and 1960's (relatively) youthful prime?

I find her supremely convincing as Natasha and as Tatiana.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Not even Vishnevskaya in her 1950's and 1960's (relatively) youthful prime?
> 
> I find her supremely convincing as Natasha and as Tatiana.




I'm afraid not, but I recognise her talent. Maybe I should pull out the song album of hers and see how I find it.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Vishnevskaya was, IMO, one of the great vocal artists of recent times, something Netrebko is decidedly not. The voice itself was beautiful in its prime, always vibrant with feeling, and guided by a fine artistic intelligence. She was versatile too; I was stunned by her emotional and splendidly vocalized performance as Liu in _Turandot_, on a terrific live recording from the early '60s with Nilsson and Corelli under Gavazzeni. The Italian audience loved her.

Perhaps Netrebko is a fine Tatiana. But seeing her name on a bill just doesn't set me on fire.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

I don't want it to look as if there is an anti-Russian bandwagon rolling here, but I listened to Borodin's _Prince Igor_ yesterday and was distinclty underwhelmed by Act 1 (and, if the truth be known, by the rest of it *as an opera*) although there are some wonderful islands of enjoyment in there of course


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

sospiro said:


> That particular version or do you think _Macbeth_ itself is overrated?


A bit late, sorry.
I mean this particular version.


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## Fat Bob (Sep 25, 2015)

graziesignore said:


> Whenever I want people to check out Russian opera, I just play this chestnut for them. Works every time.


That is indeed rather splendid, thank you.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Yes, I think Chernov's version is my favorite. That peculiar wobble in the middle of his voice is extremely endearing for Yeletsky and this aria... More than once I've been asked what Yeletsky is singing, and when I show them the libretto translation, the reaction is "MARRY ME!!!!"

I think La Forza Del Destino is overrated... about the only thing I enjoy about it is the overture and the Alvaro-Carlo confrontation and swordfight. The rest of it? Cheesy tavern scenes, moping, mewling and monks. Yawn.

PS: I have no idea why the word Forza directs you to Walmart. Strange.

PPS: I have no idea why W-A-L-M-A-R-T is live-linked. Sorry.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Lakme = Pearl Fishers minus one.

Best Regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Il Trovatore From the met last time.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Strauss' Salome at the ROH- not my choice, a friend had a spare ticket. At that time my children were very small, and I thought ruefully that if I'd wanted to see naked people running around shrieking, I could have stayed at home!


The very finest opera performance I've ever seen was a production of SALOME, and personally I love this opera. Just so you know, SALOME doesn't have to be performed with nudity. In the production I saw, for example, Salome was not nude at the end of the Dance of the Seven Veils, yet the number still came off as very sensual. I'd encourage you to give SALOME another chance, though I'd say that the chances of seeing a production of it that's not trying too hard to be "shocking" are probably pretty small.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

graziesignore said:


> Yes, I think Chernov's version is my favorite. That peculiar wobble in the middle of his voice is extremely endearing for Yeletsky and this aria... More than once I've been asked what Yeletsky is singing, and when I show them the libretto translation, the reaction is "MARRY ME!!!!"
> 
> I think La Forza Del Destino is overrated... about the only thing I enjoy about it is the overture and the Alvaro-Carlo confrontation and swordfight. The rest of it? Cheesy tavern scenes, moping, mewling and monks. Yawn.
> 
> ...


I don't think Chernov has a wobble; I think it's just a heavy, "Slavic" vibrato.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pugg said:


> Il Trovatore From the met last time.


England played in the Rugby World Cup the same night as the broadcast so Trovatore wasn't the only over-rated thing available. :lol:


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I've heard some people say that Chernov's voice sounded like it didn't have much support, but it just had a peculiar vibrato that you don't often hear in Italian opera, and he was one of the few Russians who sounded good in Italian opera, particularly his excellent Figaro.


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Il Trovatore From the met last time.


The Met has too many modernized performances for me to be thrilled with them. Despite the force of Natalie Dessay, I did not overall enjoy La Traviata when I saw it last year. But La Traviata in particular won plenty of praise for its pretentious surrealism. Likewise, Falstaff a couple years ago really was really jarring when the eponymous character walked into a 1960s-styled kitchen. Very anachronistic.

I mean, not every performance has to be a period piece, but these are just too out there for my taste.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Lyricus said:


> The Met has too many modernized performances for me to be thrilled with them. Despite the force of Natalie Dessay, I did not overall enjoy La Traviata when I saw it last year. But La Traviata in particular won plenty of praise for its pretentious surrealism. Likewise, Falstaff a couple years ago really was really jarring when the eponymous character walked into a 1960s-styled kitchen. Very anachronistic.
> 
> I mean, not every performance has to be a period piece, but these are just too out there for my taste.


That so called "Clock" production is a insult to the public.
Only those who "adore" modern staging praising it.
To me...it's a travesty


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

Oops, I should really have edited my statement before hitting post. It wasn't Natalie Dessay, it was Maria Poplavskaya. And there's one too many "really"'s in there. But yes, I agree. It really felt cheap.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Pugg said:


> That so called "Clock" production is a insult to the public.
> Only those who "adore" modern staging praising it.
> To me...it's a travesty


But thanks to the clock the audience knows that Violetta have little time left.


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

Sloe said:


> But thanks to the clock the audience knows that Violetta have little time left.


That's just it: too in your face to be any good as symbolism.


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