# "Competitions are for horses, not artists."



## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

To expound upon the Bartok quote in the thread title: 

Why are so many on this otherwise fine forum trying their hardest to turn art into sports? With the threads of the "best" whatever, the "greatest" this and that, and the negativity of the "survival games," I wonder why more forum members don't visit sports forums so they can rank and do statistics to their heart's content. With actual things that fit into statistics, unlike art.

Rant mode off. 

Enjoy your day,
-09


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## haydnfan (Apr 13, 2011)

I think those threads are about comparing each others' tastes more than it is about declaring an actual best. It is really about the posters, not just the content.


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

haydnfan said:


> I think those threads are about comparing each others' tastes more than it is about declaring an actual best. It is really about the posters, not just the content.


Hmmm..... I hope that's the reasoning.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm sorry for taking part and will now try to keep away  I do like prizes though, it's a way to hear about new artists and composers.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

haydnfan said:


> I think those threads are about comparing each others' tastes more than it is about declaring an actual best. It is really about the posters, not just the content.


I'm curious whether _anyone_ thinks TC polls and games can provide a definitive "best".

Personally, I like my data _big_. A lot of the recent polls/games are so small-scale that I find them meaningless, but that's me; surely _not participating_ is enough of a judgement.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Easily one of the ten best threads of today.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Omicron9 said:


> To expound upon the Bartok quote in the thread title:
> 
> Why are so many on this otherwise fine forum trying their hardest to turn art into sports? With the threads of the "best" whatever, the "greatest" this and that, and the negativity of the "survival games," I wonder why more forum members don't visit sports forums so they can rank and do statistics to their heart's content. With actual things that fit into statistics, unlike art.


It was just a matter of time before someone would start a thread complaining about the increased poll/game activity on the board. Having started 6 survival games in the past three weeks, I suppose I'm one of the culprits. Given that I likely use sports-like terms more than others playing the games, maybe I am the prime culprit.

Let's get the sports business out of the way. I am a big-time sports fan who tends to use sports terms unless I purposely refrain from doing so. Concerning the games, I relish using these terms (it's a game). However, I don't try to turn art into sports; I turn it into competition and use sports terms to intensify the situation.

I am usually perplexed at why some folks insist on separating art from competition; art is not above competition as the two go hand in hand. Will my painting get any traction on the open market? Will I attend the concert hall performance or purchase some clothing for my grandchildren? Competition pervades just about all aspects of our lives because resources and time are limited. Instead of trying to evade the inevitable competitive forces in life, I think it's best to embrace competition to enhance the quality of existence. Hiding one's head in the sand never yields favorable results.

What I most object to is the premise that art and the people who create art reside on an exalted plateau. Yes, art is important to a healthy society, but so is the proper disposal of trash and garbage without which we would all be dead. There's no good reason to consider art of greater significance than the other activities that benefit a society.

Here's an amusing fact. All on his own, Omicron9 attempted to play in one of my games, but his posting apparently got lost in cyber-space. How do I know this? Omicron9 told us.

REMEMBER - ARTISTS ARE EARTHLINGS.


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> I'm curious whether _anyone_ thinks TC polls and games can provide a definitive "best".
> 
> Personally, I like my data _big_. A lot of the recent polls/games are so small-scale that I find them meaningless, but that's me; surely _not participating_ is enough of a judgement.


*In matters of art, there is no best*, definitive or otherwise. Art cannot be quantified, unless you're counting the number of paintings completed by a specific artist, or the number of symphonies by a given composer. Even then it's mere numbers; it says nothing of the quality/validity; nor can it.

It's not science, which can be quantified. It's art, which cannot. Which is part of what makes it art in the first place.

I just don't understand this. Is it because some people are so insecure that they can't allow themselves to listen to or enjoy something unless others have told them it's OK vis a vis a (meaningless) poll declaring some version as "the best?"

It's akin to having a poll for the best ice cream flavor because you don't know what you like, and you're afraid to make a selection using your own judgment and taste. And then only eat what others have declared as "the best." Regardless of whether it relates in any way to your own taste.

If you like a composer/piece/recording/version, then what's the problem? Do you really need strangers on an interwebs forum assuring you that your selected version is "the best," and thus OK to continue liking it? If the version you like is not declared as "the best," do you suddenly decide you no longer like it?

In art, there can be favorites. There can be no "best."

The "games" reek of negativity. The games and the "best" polls do no service to new listeners, and are a clear waste of time to experienced listeners.

I just don't get it. Misguided at best. I just. Don't. Get it.

_*And as ever.... just my opinion and rant.*

_And I'm done with this line of reasoning. I've said what I need to say, and I have no illusions that it will matter or change anything, but still it had to be said. And allow me to again state: all just my opinion.

Officially stating that mint chip is clearly the best ice cream flavor,
-09


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> ...snip....
> 
> Here's an amusing fact. All on his own, Omicron9 attempted to play in one of my games, but his posting apparently got lost in cyber-space. How do I know this? Omicron9 told us.
> 
> snip....


All true. I did it as what I thought was a service, to supply some overlooked works which I thought others might enjoy. (Which is actually a good use of this forum, no?) At the time I posted (waaaay too early and pre-coffee), I didn't realize it was a negative game. My bad.


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> It was just a matter of time before someone would start a thread complaining about the increased poll/game activity on the board. Having started 6 survival games in the past three weeks, I suppose I'm one of the culprits. Given that I likely use sports-like terms more than others playing the games, maybe I am the prime culprit.
> 
> Let's get the sports business out of the way. I am a big-time sports fan who tends to use sports terms unless I purposely refrain from doing so. Concerning the games, I relish using these terms (it's a game). However, I don't try to turn art into sports; I turn it into competition and use sports terms to intensify the situation.
> 
> ...


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Omicron9 said:


> To expound upon the Bartok quote in the thread title:
> 
> Why are so many on this otherwise fine forum trying their hardest to turn art into sports? With the threads of the "best" whatever, the "greatest" this and that, and the negativity of the "survival games," I wonder why more forum members don't visit sports forums so they can rank and do statistics to their heart's content. With actual things that fit into statistics, unlike art.
> 
> ...


It's called a game. It's called fun. Why are the light-hearted "survival games" "negative?" There are a slew of statistics in art. Take the stick out of the mud, don't be one. In the immortal words of Sergeant Hulka, "Lighten up Francis."

V

PS: Outstanding post Bulldog!


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

Varick said:


> Why are the light-hearted "survival games" "negative?"


I don't see them as particularly negative, either. Certainly no more negative then many of the "discussions" on this board that regularly disintegrate into heated arguments and personal insults.


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## wolkaaa (Feb 12, 2017)

Omicron9 said:


> Why are so many on this otherwise fine forum trying their hardest to turn art into sports?


1. To answer your question: because we like it! :lol:
Personally, I love numbers, rankings, statistics, etc.
2. The better question IMO: why not?! If you don't like it, don't participate. Why should we stop it? 
3. Competition doesn't mean sports necessarily. Whole life is competition.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Omicron9 said:


> *In matters of art, there is no best*, definitive or otherwise. Art cannot be quantified,... it says nothing of the quality/validity; nor can it.


There absolutely is. Are you saying the Mona Lisa is not any better than anything Bob Ross has painted? Beethoven's 3rd Symphony isn't any better than Aerosmith's Dream On? What an absurd notion. Without definition, without parameters you have only chaos, and nothing works in chaos.



Omicron9 said:


> I just don't understand this. Is it because some people are so insecure that they can't allow themselves to listen to or enjoy something unless others have told them it's OK vis a vis a (meaningless) poll declaring some version as "the best?"
> 
> It's akin to having a poll for the best ice cream flavor because you don't know what you like, and you're afraid to make a selection using your own judgment and taste. And then only eat what others have declared as "the best." Regardless of whether it relates in any way to your own taste.
> 
> If you like a composer/piece/recording/version, then what's the problem? Do you really need strangers on an interwebs forum assuring you that your selected version is "the best," and thus OK to continue liking it? If the version you like is not declared as "the best," do you suddenly decide you no longer like it?


You assume quite a lot to the motivations of others.



Omicron9 said:


> The "games" reek of negativity. The games and the "best" polls do no service to new listeners, and are a clear waste of time to experienced listeners.


Please explain why it's "negative." I guess after listening to classical music for over 40 years, I'm just not an experienced listener yet. It's not supposed to be a "service," however, it may be a waste of time. But most things that are "fun" can be a waste of time. But to achieve happiness in life, having a bit of fun now and then, even if it is a waste of time, is a healthy thing.



Omicron9 said:


> I just don't get it. Misguided at best. I just. Don't. Get it.


You make that quite clear.



Omicron9 said:


> _*And as ever.... just my opinion and rant.*
> 
> _And I'm done with this line of reasoning. I've said what I need to say, and I have no illusions that it will matter or change anything, but still it had to be said. And allow me to again state: all just my opinion.


Ahh, we get to the crux. And every vote in every one of these "competitions/polls" are just that as well: Our opinion. And we all enjoy giving them.



Omicron9 said:


> Officially stating that mint chip is clearly the best ice cream flavor,
> -09


Wrong again! It's coffee.

V


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Omicron9 said:


> *In matters of art, there is no best*, definitive or otherwise. Art cannot be quantified, unless you're counting the number of paintings completed by a specific artist, or the number of symphonies by a given composer. Even then it's mere numbers; it says nothing of the quality/validity; nor can it.
> 
> It's not science, which can be quantified. It's art, which cannot. Which is part of what makes it art in the first place.
> 
> ...


Not to me. The composers and works I use in my games are selected for their excellence. Sure, there's one winner and a bunch of losers, but it's all just for game purposes - fun and light entertainment.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I'll wager that somewhere in cyberspace, on a sports forum, one bold fellow has probably started a thread about how getting someone out for a duck (cricket term) is very much like a Schoenberg string quartet.

How I wish I could take part in that meeting of two arts.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> I'll wager that somewhere in cyberspace, on a sports forum, one bold fellow has probably started a thread about how getting someone out for a duck (cricket term) is very much like a Schoenberg string quartet.
> 
> How I wish I could take part in that meeting of two arts.


Don't you have to hit the workplace?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> I'm curious whether _anyone_ thinks TC polls and games can provide a definitive "best".


Of course not - I'm not delusional. How about you?


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> I'm curious whether _anyone_ thinks TC polls and games can provide a definitive "best".
> 
> Personally, I like my data _big_. A lot of the recent polls/games are so small-scale that I find them meaningless, but that's me; surely _not participating_ is enough of a judgement.


I do not think one poll can provide a definitive "best" but if the same work were to win in several polls conducted in different mediums it could show a trend.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Art isn't a sport, nor is it a science. But I don't see these polls/games as attempting to turn music into either of those things. Mostly what I see is curiosity - what's TC's favourite piano concerto? which century's music do people prefer?
Granted, some people are silly and use the words _best_ or _greatest_, when really they should be using _favourite_, but I think they know that anyway. The people who are the most adamant that there's an objective truth about the quality of music aren't the people posting polls and games - why would they be? They already know the answer!

From what I can see, nobody's trying to quantify _music_, they're trying to quantify _opinions on music_. Very different.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> I do not think one poll can provide a definitive "best" but if the same work were to win in several polls conducted in different mediums it could show a trend.


As far as I'm concerned, a million polls showing the same result still say nothing about the "best". There's no such thing as an actual "best", just what people _think_ is the best. Which is to say, people's _favourite_.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't view the X vs. Y threads as competitions. Wagner vs. Cage? Heh heh. 

Absolutely nothing hinges on who prefers whose music. These threads are great opportunities to discover our ignorance and prejudices in a pleasant gaming atmosphere.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I don't view the X vs. Y threads as competitions. Wagner vs. Cage? Heh heh.


It's an easy life when all you do is sit down and be trounced.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> Don't you have to hit the workplace?


Well, I just came in after visiting a customer and it's been raining continuously. So I'm having a cup of tea if that's okay. I'm my own boss, so I get to decide how long the tea break is.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> Well, I just came in after visiting a customer and it's been raining continuously. So I'm having a cup of tea if that's okay. I'm my own boss, so I get to decide how long the tea break is.


I'm retired, so the breaks never end. Right now I'm deciding whether to eat lunch, take a hike, walk the dogs, get together with my wife, yell at the obnoxious next-door neighbor, or go on a shopping spree. That's a lot of choices for a retired guy whose brain is winding down.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> I'm retired, so the breaks never end. Right now I'm deciding whether to eat lunch, take a hike, walk the dogs, get together with my wife, yell at the obnoxious next-door neighbor, or go on a shopping spree. That's a lot of choices for a retired guy whose brain is winding down.


I wouldn't mind a few weeks of that. I do like my work though ,so it's not all bad. I just need to turn the computer off when I'm supposed to be busy.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Omicron9 said:


> Why are so many on this otherwise fine forum trying their hardest to turn art into sports? ....... the negativity of the "survival games," I wonder why more forum members don't visit sports forums so they can rank and do statistics to their heart's content. With actual things that fit into statistics, unlike art.


I agree...the survival/knockout threads are really negative - and they now dominate the entire board - 11 out of 14 most active threads....I'm sorry to see this genre of posting taking over this forum...I left another forum because of these...


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

The way I look at it: The periodic survival/knockout thread is fine and does no harm, but the sudden barrage of so many of them such that the other threads are overwhelmed and quickly scroll off the opening page (where they get the most attention) is counterproductive. Perhaps the poster(s) didn't think this through, but I hope they give it some thought. Besides, less is more.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Heck148 said:


> I agree...the survival/knockout threads are really negative - and they now dominate the entire board - 11 out of 14 most active threads....I'm sorry to see this genre of posting taking over this forum...I left another forum because of these...


You said it, man!

"Survival/Knockout"...? Excuse me for being a doddering old fart, but what is the appeal to music-lovers of this TV game-show sort of thing? I can turn a simple Y vs. Z comparison into a pleasant poolside discussion of their respective merits, but confronted with points and scoreboards and "you're fired!" I go momentarily catatonic, and when I return to consciousness I want to pick up my chaise lounge and sun tea and go home to a good book.

I see a couple of other old farts offering these odd games. Perhaps they haven't reached the doddering stage.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Please concentrate on the OP and stop making ad hom attacks on each other. A number of posts have been removed.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

I prefer the "competition" threads where people vote for their favorites without knocking other composers down. The discussion and passion in the positive-focused poll threads can lead to some amazing new discoveries.


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> You said it, man!
> 
> "Survival/Knockout"...? Excuse me for being a doddering old fart, but what is the appeal to music-lovers of this TV game-show sort of thing? I can turn a simple Y vs. Z comparison into a pleasant poolside discussion of their respective merits, but confronted with points and scoreboards and "you're fired!" I go momentarily catatonic, and when I return to consciousness I want to pick up my chaise lounge and sun tea and go home to a good book.
> 
> I see a couple of other old farts offering these odd games. Perhaps they haven't reached the doddering stage.


Agreed. One of these might have been fun but they are now absolutely tiresome. So enjoy them guys as I'm off for a bit until the forum gets over it!


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I lied...I voted again :devil:


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

DaveM said:


> The way I look at it: The periodic survival/knockout thread is fine and does no harm, but the sudden barrage of so many of them such that the other threads are overwhelmed and quickly scroll off the opening page (where they get the most attention) is counterproductive.....


right - maybe those knockout things could be on their own forum??


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Star said:


> ....So enjoy them guys as I'm off for a bit until the forum gets over it!


That's how I feel...take a vacation till these blow over....


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Every problem deserves a solution.

As I see it, the problem is that game threads are stacking up on Page One because it takes very little time to vote on a daily basis. The solution is a time-delay system.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> That's how I feel...take a vacation till these blow over....


I'm not so sure that they will blow over; we will see.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> right - maybe those knockout things could be on their own forum??


I would be fine with that idea.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

I suggested a separate forum for polls a while ago - it was rejected; I don't see how this would be any different.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

What we need is a knock out poll of knock out polls


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> Every problem deserves a solution.
> 
> As I see it, the problem is that game threads are stacking up on Page One because it takes very little time to vote on a daily basis. The solution is a time-delay system.


A time delay of at least a month. Or maybe an eternity.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Perhaps what's needed is a new way (other than polls) of devising terrible personal conflicts of opinion where the poor composers aren't left bruised and bloodied.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> A time delay of at least a month. Or maybe an eternity.


I'm willing to stay away for a month if you do the same. Of course, I'd have to stay until my games are finished; nothing is more important than the games.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> I'm willing to stay away for a month if you do the same. Of course, I'd have to stay until my games are finished; nothing is more important than the games.


No need for that, surely.

I don't want to take part in the games so I just don't click on the threads. I admit to thinking: "bloody hell not another one!", but if they're popular and enough people like them.... It's a shared space after all.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> Art isn't a sport, nor is it a science. But I don't see these polls/games as attempting to turn music into either of those things. Mostly what I see is curiosity - what's TC's favourite piano concerto? which century's music do people prefer?
> Granted, some people are silly and use the words _best_ or _greatest_, when really they should be using _favourite_, but I think they know that anyway. The people who are the most adamant that there's an objective truth about the quality of music aren't the people posting polls and games - why would they be? They already know the answer!
> 
> From what I can see, nobody's trying to quantify _music_, they're trying to quantify _opinions on music_. Very different.


That's true, of course. But the endless composer ranking polls, or head-to-head Beethoven v. John Cage slugfests, are seldom very illuminating even if one diplomatically substitutes "favorite" for "best". Favorite pre-1750 operas or post-1970 string quartets might be interesting because I might learn about some interesting music. But, favorite century? That doesn't mean much. And certain posters with tired, predictable long-running agendas too often wade in, or even start the poll thread.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

The word "knockout" doesn't appear to be appreciated by some TC members. I could remove that word and insert "brutal". How does "insipid" sound to you? As you can see, I'm willing to go more than half-way to satisfy the anti-gamers.

So far, this is all a joke. One member wrote that these games are taking over the board. I've got five games on the screen; maybe there are two or three others. It doesn't compute that 8 game threads could take over a very active board. But if you don't like the look of things, just create more of your own threads. The board is simply a reflection of the active membership. 

One other observation. When I started my first survival game, I was lucky if there were 4 votes each day. However, that number has risen considerably of late and applies to each of the 5 games. For better or worse, these games are increasingly in demand and quite popular. I don't know what the future holds; I don't even know if I'll want to continue gaming by next week. I'm just playing it day by day. As of this particular day, I'm quite pleased with what's happening. I've got games and complaints about games. It would be unfair of me to ask for more.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> What I most object to is the premise that art and the people who create art reside on an exalted plateau. Yes, art is important to a healthy society, but so is the proper disposal of trash and garbage without which we would all be dead. *There's no good reason to consider art of greater significance than the other activities that benefit a society*.
> REMEMBER - ARTISTS ARE EARTHLINGS.


Who needs a reason? We're here because we do consider it of greater significance - to us - than other activities. Call me crazy, but isn't this forum specifically designed for people who feel that way?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Who needs a reason? We're here because we do consider it of greater significance - to us - than other activities. Call me crazy, but isn't this forum specifically designed for people who feel that way?


Beats me. I don't know the motivations of the individuals who developed TC. Also, I'm just a guy who loves classical music; the other arts hold no interest for me. That reminds me that the NFL season is coming soon; can't wait for all the knockouts.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Bulldog said:


> The word "knockout" doesn't appear to be appreciated by some TC members. I could remove that word and insert "brutal". How does "insipid" sound to you? As you can see, I'm willing to go more than half-way to satisfy the anti-gamers.
> 
> So far, this is all a joke. One member wrote that these games are taking over the board. I've got five games on the screen; maybe there are two or three others. It doesn't compute that 8 game threads could take over a very active board. But if you don't like the look of things, just create more of your own threads. The board is simply a reflection of the active membership.
> 
> One other observation. When I started my first survival game, I was lucky if there were 4 votes each day. However, that number has risen considerably of late and applies to each of the 5 games. For better or worse, these games are increasingly in demand and quite popular. I don't know what the future holds; I don't even know if I'll want to continue gaming by next week. I'm just playing it day by day. As of this particular day, I'm quite pleased with what's happening. I've got games and complaints about games. It would be unfair of me to ask for more.


AFAIC, you can go ahead and post all the "knockout games" you want. No problem for me, I haven't even seen them. The funny thing about your post is, I've seen exactly the same technique used several times before. First, someone creates a series of posts at best tangentially-related to the topics of the forum. When someone falls into the trap of commenting "this is boring", or, "this is at best tangentially-related to the topics of the forum", they are immediately dubbed an "anti-____er", here an "anti-gamer", and lo and behold, the controversy and attention the original author craves is born. I guess. Well, whether you decide to continue gaming or not, good luck to you.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

fluteman said:


> AFAIC, you can go ahead and post all the "knockout games" you want. No problem for me, I haven't even seen them. The funny thing about your post is, I've seen exactly the same technique used several times before. First, someone creates a series of posts at best tangentially-related to the topics of the forum. When someone falls into the trap of commenting "this is boring", or, "this is at best tangentially-related to the topics of the forum", they are immediately dubbed an "anti-____er", here an "anti-gamer", and lo and behold, the controversy and attention the original author craves is born. I guess. Well, whether you decide to continue gaming or not, good luck to you.


I appreciate your comments. As far as the topics of the forum, I assume that classical music is the primary topic. Since these games involve composers and their classical works, I feel that the games fit right into the forum's basic concerns.

Edit: I thought "anti-gamer' was a cute way to describe a member who doesn't care for these games; it has a nice ring to it.


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## georgedelorean (Aug 18, 2017)

I definitely agree with the quote. The goal of any artist is to add something to humanity which didn't exist beforehand; an increase for the betterment of all people. Competition in the winner/loser dynamic of sports has absolutely no part in the creative arts.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I think it is good to not get obsessed by the competitive aspect of music, but whether one likes it or not competition has been an aspect of classical music going back centuries. 

Bartok was a great composer and one of my favorites but that doesn't mean I agree with him on everything. He also seemed to think it was ethically wrong to use an excerpt from a classical music piece in another work of art such as a film, I disagree with him on that concept as well.


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