# Music Offering



## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Why are all recordngs of the musical offering typically performed by an ensemble As opposed to the keyboard, as with art of fugue where there is a mix - plenty of recordings on keyboard alone as well as ensemble. Obviously the musical offering has the trio sonata, but that doesn’t rule out the organ - and bach obviously wrote trio sonatas for organ elsewhere.

:tiphat:


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Given that the Musical Offering features a trio sonata, it's not a keyboard work. The canons sound better to me played by an ensemble due to having more clearly delineated voices. Some of the canons also just don't work very well on keyboard. I think the six-part ricercar also sounds better and certainly more sonorous when played by strings etc. The 3-part ricercar sounds a little more improvisatory so keyboard is fine.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

consuono said:


> Given that the Musical Offering features a trio sonata, it's not a keyboard work.


Do you think that BWV 525-530 are keyboard works?


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I love the Musical Offering. I've been listening to it nonstop lately.

Does anyone know of a recording where the big ricercars are played on a fortepiano of the kind that might have been found in the court of Potsdam? Now that would be authentic.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

The scoring of the triosonata and one of the canons is prescribed by the composer (flauto traverso, violin and continuo), but it is reasonable to believe that Bach concerning the other canons had prominent roles for flauto traverso(Frederick the Great) and harpsichord / fortepiano (CPE Bach) in mind. The two ricercari are without doubt keyboard pieces. The three-part ricercare for harpsichord or maybe fortepiano, whereas the six-part ricercare is conceived like an obvious organ piece with the bass part ideal for pedal playing. Recall BTW that the king also aasked Bach to improvise a six part fugue on the organ during his visit in Potzdam.

There are some recordings of the three-part ricercare on fortepiano but not of the six-part one.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7932411--on-johann-sebastian-bachs-life-art-work

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8054605--bach-j-s-musical-offering-bwv1079

both played by Lorenzo Ghielmi.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> I love the Musical Offering. I've been listening to it nonstop lately.
> 
> Does anyone know of a recording where the big ricercars are played on a fortepiano of the kind that might have been found in the court of Potsdam? Now that would be authentic.


Here









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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Do you think that BWV 525-530 are keyboard works?


Yes, because flute and continuo aren't called for.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

premont said:


> The scoring of the triosonata and one of the canons is prescribed by the composer (flauto traverso, violin and continuo), *but it is reasonable to believe that Bach concerning the other canons had prominent roles for flauto traverso(Frederick the Great) and harpsichord / fortepiano (CPE Bach) in mind.*


This is not consistent with the wikipedia article, at least:

"Apart from the trio sonata, which is written for flute, violin and basso continuo, the pieces have few indications of which instruments are meant to play them, although there is now significant support for the idea that they are for solo keyboard, like most of Bach's other published works."


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Here
> 
> View attachment 142952


Sorry, I forgot it, even if I know it very well. 
Quandoque bonus dormitat Homerus.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

RogerWaters said:


> This is not consistent with the wikipedia article, at least:
> 
> "Apart from the trio sonata, which is written for flute, violin and basso continuo, the pieces have few indications of which instruments are meant to play them, although there is now significant support for the idea that they are for solo keyboard, like most of Bach's other published works."


I think the canons are sort of abstract demonstrations of the form, though with a message. I don't know if it matters that much whether they're played on a keyboard or by an ensemble. Whatever you like.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

RogerWaters said:


> This is not consistent with the wikipedia article, at least:
> 
> "Apart from the trio sonata, which is written for flute, violin and basso continuo, the pieces have few indications of which instruments are meant to play them, although there is now significant support for the idea that they are for solo keyboard, like most of Bach's other published works."


The canone perpetuo is the only canon the scoring of which is prescribed. Many of the other canons are very awkward to play on keyboard, but of course two keyboards may be intended as in the AoF. That the king was destined for an important role is of course my fancy (I wrote: It is reasonable to believe) as nothing is known for sure, but the claim in Wiki about solo keyboard throughout is completely unsubstantiated and sources should be quoted.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Do you think that BWV 525-530 are keyboard works?


In Bach's own manuscript he writes: à 2 Clav. et Pedal di JS Bach.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I prefer it with ensemble just like I prefer the AoF such. It's "inauthentic" and all that, but I'm utterly overwhelmed whenever I hear the Ricercar a 6 played with full strings in the Marriner recording. Just celestial!

A book I can heartily recommend concerning this topic is James R. Gaines's _Evening in the Palace of Reason_. It's a fascinating duo-biography of Bach and Frederick the Great, and discusses their warring philosophical ideologies of Reformation/Enlightenment, culminating in the famous meeting between the two and the musical composition that resulted. Well-researched, casually-written, and a good mix of musical analysis and historical narrative.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I prefer it with ensemble just like I prefer the AoF such. It's "inauthentic" and all that, but I'm utterly overwhelmed whenever I hear the Ricercar a 6 played with full strings in the Marriner recording. Just celestial!


If you want to be even more utterly overwhelmed try to find Gerhard Weinberger playing it on an organ, you won't forget it in a hurry.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Mandryka said:


> If you want to be even more utterly overwhelmed try to find Gerhard Weinberger playing it on an organ, you won't forget it in a hurry.


Yeah, one of my most impressive 'live' music experiences ever was Leo van Doeselaar playing the 6-part Ricercar on the Schnitger et al organ in the Martinikerk, Groningen, NL. Left me breathless.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Knowing van Doeselaar's Bach style well I can almost imagine his performance of the ricercar à 6. It must have been a great experience.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I prefer it with ensemble just like I prefer the AoF such. It's "inauthentic" and all that, but I'm utterly overwhelmed whenever I hear the Ricercar a 6 played with full strings in the Marriner recording. Just celestial!
> 
> A book I can heartily recommend concerning this topic is James R. Gaines's _Evening in the Palace of Reason_. It's a fascinating duo-biography of Bach and Frederick the Great, and discusses their warring philosophical ideologies of Reformation/Enlightenment, culminating in the famous meeting between the two and the musical composition that resulted. Well-researched, casually-written, and a good mix of musical analysis and historical narrative.


Yeah, that's an awesome book about the lives and events leading up to the Musical Offering. Definitely changed the way I thought about the work (for the better). I understand some of the canons in the Offering are discussed in the book Gödel, Escher, Bach by Doug Hofstadter. It was my brother who put me onto the Offering in the first place after he read that book.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ottavio Dantone's essay on Opfer is interesting because it spells out how baroque (in the literal and metaphorical sense) the work is, with its five booklets, acrostics, riddles and its relation to Quintilian. We're dealing with something which is very strange by modern standards.



> J.S. BACH: "The musical offering"
> 
> No musician except Bach has ever approached so closely, or in such a profound way, the boundary that separates art from science, and Bach succeeded in knocking down this very barrier without sacrificing either mathematical reason or purely musical expressiveness.
> 
> ...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

And here's the Weinberger performance on organ which makes such an impression


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