# Are all track and field athletes on drugs?



## Don Fatale

Well are they? Surely not even the great UB.

Interested to know what you think, but please stick to quotes of others and substantiated claims rather than libel.


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## sharik

Don Fatale said:


> please stick to quotes of others and substantiated claims rather than libel.


come on... when Lance Armstrong was a champion with clean record, who could have accused him without libel involved? Usain Bolt is the same; or should we wait until he is caught?


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## Don Fatale

That's my point. It's better to quote other people's accusations, particularly those connected to the 'business'. My saying that 'Johan Bolt is a doper' as an isolated statement doesn't add to the conversation.

What do you put Russia's poor showing at the last World Champs down to? Have they simply run out of top athletes because they're banned, or is it to their credit that they athletes they sent were running like clean athletes, i.e. not winning medals?


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## Belowpar

That we shuold even have these thoughts about sportsmen and women sadens me. The little boy in me still wants hero's...

Money has always affected one's ability to perform on the field of play, but when it comes down to who can afford the best doctors I lose interest. 




Usain Bolt has the most amazing physique and Jamaicans have a fine tradition of sprinters. I like to believe and until there's some hard evidence to the contrary, will continue to do so. It's to easy to be a cynic.


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## Don Fatale

Is it a coincidence that Jamaica and Kenya have been the two most criticized countries for their lax drug testing regimes. Guess who were the top two in the last World Championships? I've been a track and field fan since I was eight but I'm just about done with it now, thanks to so many cheating ******** in the sport.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/24926891


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## Vaneyes

"Devil weed."


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## sharik

Don Fatale said:


> What do you put Russia's poor showing at the last World Champs down to?


a wrong dope, not the one used by Western atheletes and thus not approved by West-controlled WADA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Anti-Doping_Agency .


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## Don Fatale

I'm not sure what you mean. It's easy to acquire the opinion that WADA are ineffective, but are you saying something different?


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## sharik

Don Fatale said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. It's easy to acquire the opinion that WADA are ineffective


ineffective, but rather selectively; they are very effective when they want to be; depends on politics of the moment.


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## Don Fatale

sharik said:


> ineffective, but rather selectively; they are very effective when they want to be; depends on politics of the moment.


Can you give examples or suggested reading?


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## senza sordino

I doubt these athletes are taking performance enhancing drugs 
View attachment 76164


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## Klavierspieler

What? No poll?

tuu schourtt


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## KenOC

99% of Russian athletes? A startling article from the BBC. Seems to have stirred things up.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/30324812


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## sharik

Don Fatale said:


> Can you give examples or suggested reading?


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/30324812 - could be an example, although indirectly; but claiming 99% of such country as Russia to do dope would by default imply the West is on dope too, 99% or not.


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## sharik

KenOC said:


> 99% of Russian athletes?


and the rest of the world too, as if you didn't know...



KenOC said:


> A startling article from the BBC.


'startling' eh?.. how old are you?


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## Don Fatale

Klavierspieler said:


> What? No poll?


No, it's one of those pesky threads where you need to give an informed and thoughtful opinion on the subject matter.


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## Don Fatale

sharik said:


> http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/30324812 - could be an example, although indirectly; but claiming 99% of such country as Russia to do dope would by default imply the West is on dope too, 99% or not.


Of course. Failed drugs tests and suspensions more than simply implies that there's doping in the West, but the degree to which it is systematic, condoned or widespread surely varies from country to country? There are many top British athletes who are passionate and vocal anti-drugs campaigners, so the blanket smear that they are all on drugs is crude and ill-informed. I'd like to believe that Russia has some clean athletes too.

I remember when the teenager Adam Gemili ran 19.98 in the 200m at the 2013 World Champs. In the post-race interview he was shocked and amazed because the widespread perception is that only dopers can run that kind of time, and yet there he was, he'd done it clean. It's things like this that keep me hopeful.


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## schigolch

Don Fatale said:


> I remember when the teenager Adam Gemili ran 19.98 in the 200m at the 2013 World Champs. In the post-race interview he was shocked and amazed because the widespread perception is that only dopers can run that kind of time, and yet there he was, he'd done it clean. It's things like this that keep me hopeful.


How do you know that Mr. Gemili had done it clean?.


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## elgar's ghost

In simple terms, medals mean endorsements and endorsements mean more money so some athletes are going to take more risks whether their trainer or athletics board turn a blind eye or not. 

Long term, any banned substance policy is likely to be flawed if not doomed altogether if it relies largely on the goodwill of each country's governing bodies to implement it, especially as the implementation in itself costs money - money which some countries would be reluctant or maybe even unable to spend. And what's the alternative? - unless every single athlete is tested every time he or she trains or takes part in competition then most substance cheats are likely to get away with it anyway.


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## gHeadphone

UFC fighter Brendan Schaub (he also played D1 college football in the US) speaks about this on his podcast from time to time and says that very few top athletes are not taking some type of questionable supplement (often uses the 80% marker).


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## Don Fatale

schigolch said:


> How do you know that Mr. Gemili had done it clean?.


For a start he came from an athletics environment that is anti-drugs, his PB curve was consistent, he wasn't even (and still isn't) a professional athlete. Of course, nothing is for certain, but in some cases I'm content.


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## Don Fatale

elgars ghost said:


> In simple terms, medals mean endorsements and endorsements mean more money so some athletes are going to take more risks whether their trainer or athletics board turn a blind eye or not.
> 
> Long term, any banned substance policy is likely to be flawed if not doomed altogether if it relies largely on the goodwill of each country's governing bodies to implement it, especially as the implementation in itself costs money - money which some countries would be reluctant or maybe even unable to spend. And what's the alternative? - unless every single athlete is tested every time he or she trains or takes part in competition then most substance cheats are likely to get away with it anyway.


The alternatives? They're not easy and perhaps draconian. Here's a few:

Authorities must treat doping as financial fraud, given that it involves acquiring money by deception.
Jail terms.
Life sporting bans.
Rescinding of all titles.
Repayment of all earnings.
Potential to be sued by other athletes for denying them their medals and income.
Sanctioning of national sporting bodies, including bans from Olympics and World Champs.

The idealist sports fan in me says the best thing would be for the mind-set of athletes to change, so that winning unfairly is so shameful for them not to even consider the possibility. This ethos still exists in many sports.


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## Wood

The Operacion Puerto and the dirty Dr Fuentes are worth reading about. It would appear that whilst the Spanish authorities released the names of the cyclists on EPO, they refused to release the names of the footballers and tennis players.

Spain have been at (or close to) the top of the world in both football and tennis in recent years. In a time of severe austerity it would be a bad blow to the Spanish national prestige, and have implications for the re-electability of their governments, if they allowed their football and tennis heroes to be widely known as fraudulent cheats.

It is not possible to say if all top athletes are drugs cheats. It is unlikely. But across the sports, the evidence that has come out supports the view that a very high proportion of the winners at a global level are taking banned substances.


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## Guest

Are all track and field athletes on drugs? 

Well I'm a distance runner and even I've tested positive for Lavazza.


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## Wood

Don Fatale said:


> The alternatives? They're not easy and perhaps draconian. Here's a few:
> 
> Authorities must treat doping as financial fraud, given that it involves acquiring money by deception.
> Jail terms.
> Life sporting bans.
> Rescinding of all titles.
> Repayment of all earnings.
> Potential to be sued by other athletes for denying them their medals and income.
> Sanctioning of national sporting bodies, including bans from Olympics and World Champs.
> 
> The idealist sports fan in me says the best thing would be for the mind-set of athletes to change, so that winning unfairly is so shameful for them not to even consider the possibility. This ethos still exists in many sports.


I agree with all that but the practicalities of introducing many of them is made harder by the location of sports federations in Switzerland where they are beyond international law and irredeemably corrupt. One option may be to ban Switzerland from all global sporting competitions until they stop sheltering these guys behind their lax regulations.

Unilaterally governments could refuse to give handouts (eg lottery funding) to any sport which is governed from Switzerland.


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## elgar's ghost

Don Fatale said:


> The alternatives? They're not easy and perhaps draconian. Here's a few:
> 
> Authorities must treat doping as financial fraud, given that it involves acquiring money by deception.
> Jail terms.
> Life sporting bans.
> Rescinding of all titles.
> Repayment of all earnings.
> Potential to be sued by other athletes for denying them their medals and income.
> Sanctioning of national sporting bodies, including bans from Olympics and World Champs.
> 
> The idealist sports fan in me says the best thing would be for the mind-set of athletes to change, so that winning unfairly is so shameful for them not to even consider the possibility. This ethos still exists in many sports.


I don't disagree with your list in principle, but I would consider the items therein as punishments rather than alternatives - by alternatives I meant suggestions on how to more effectively police the situation even if it practicality dictates that it would amount to not much more than damage limitation.


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## Pugg

Klavierspieler said:


> What? No poll?
> 
> tuu schourtt


Post of the year


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## Wood

elgars ghost said:


> I don't disagree with your list in principle, but I would consider the items therein as punishments rather than alternatives - by alternatives I meant* suggestions on how to more effectively police the situation* even if it practicality dictates that it would amount to not much more than damage limitation.


Biological Passports

More money for testing, particularly for accessing athletes who train in remote locations

Better laboratories

More money for research on the latest PEDs

Encouragement of whistleblowers

Lobbying governments to extend the criminality of profiting from illegal drug-taking

Greater focus on dirty doctors

Increased searching of competitors and their helpers rooms and vehicles before, during and after events

There's probably a great deal more.


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## schigolch

Don Fatale said:


> For a start he came from an athletics environment that is anti-drugs, his PB curve was consistent, he wasn't even (and still isn't) a professional athlete. Of course, nothing is for certain, but in some cases I'm content.


In other words, he says he is clean, and there are no hard proofs to the contrary.

In other words, exactly the same like thousands and thousands of other athletes.

What we are content with, or not, it's another matter.

On my mind, what we want to achieve is to get same rules for all in terms of what can be used, and what can't, to get a fair competition, and same opportunities for all. Then, we put some controls to see if someone is not playing within those rules. If someone is caught, then an infraction is issued.

As simple as that. No need for a crusade or anything, just agree on a list of forbidden products, update that list periodically and test if people are complying. Personally, I couldn't care less if product A or product B is included or excluded from the list, as long as everyone is informed, and all athletes play with the same rules.


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## Wood

schigolch said:


> No need for a crusade or anything,


This comment appears to be somewhat naive given that it is not possible to have much trust in elite athletes being clean.


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## schigolch

I don't care if they are "clean", or "unclean", as I don't care if they are saints or sinners, I make no moral judgments. 

I just care for having some rules to ensure fairness to the competition, to enforce these rules and issue sanctions for not compliance. Nothing more, nothing less. 

Going beyond that, then for me it's a crusade, and I wouldn't like to be part of it.


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## Wood

schigolch said:


> I don't care if they are "clean", or "unclean",


Thank you for your honesty here Schigolch.


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## Don Fatale

schigolch said:


> I don't care if they are "clean", or "unclean", as I don't care if they are saints or sinners, I make no moral judgments.
> I just care for having some rules to ensure fairness to the competition, to enforce these rules and issue sanctions for not compliance. Nothing more, nothing less.
> Going beyond that, then for me it's a crusade, and I wouldn't like to be part of it.


Condoning drug taking in sport is defending the indefensible. There's no such thing as a level playing field, there's only how much risk a person is prepared to take with the life in order to win.

Sport is about much more than winning.


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## sharik

Don Fatale said:


> Of course. Failed drugs tests and suspensions more than simply implies that there's doping in the West, but the degree to which it is systematic, condoned or widespread surely varies from country to country?


that might be true if we talked sports circa say the 1980s, but these days they all are in it from head to toe, whatever country that is.


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## Don Fatale

sharik said:


> that might be true if we talked sports circa say the 1980s, but these days they all are in it from head to toe, whatever country that is.


I can understand that you may be defensive about the accusations against Russian athletics, but that's a gross simplification, and the kind of unsubstantiated comment I hoped we'd be able to avoid here. There are a great many differences between countries is testing regimes, failed test, funding and training systems etc.


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## sharik

Don Fatale said:


> I can understand that you may be defensive about the accusations against Russian athletics


no need to be defensive about that since it is clear this was an anti-Russian campaign from the start.


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## Wood

Don Fatale said:


> Condoning drug taking in sport is defending the indefensible. There's no such thing as a level playing field, there's only how much risk a person is prepared to take with the life in order to win.
> 
> Sport is about much more than winning.


Yes, also doping programmes are very expensive, so only a few athletes have the financial resources to procure the most effective ones. Hardly the level playing field that those who advocate doping in sports sometimes claim.

It is chilling how the German authorities have tried to sweep their state sponsored abuses under the carpet, especially at a time when the German cyclists, many from the former GDR, were enjoying unprecedented success earlier this century as a result of sophisticated drugs programmes.


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## Wood

sharik said:


> no need to be defensive about that since it is clear this was an anti-Russian campaign from the start.


In the interests of balance, there are currently about 50 British sportsmen serving drugs bans. Given the difficulty in detecting and successfully banning these miscreants, one can only presume this is the tip of the iceberg.


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## Bulldog

Don Fatale said:


> Well are they? Surely not even the great UB.
> 
> Interested to know what you think, but please stick to quotes of others and substantiated claims rather than libel.


I'll always assume that an athlete is not on drugs unless proven otherwise. So I'm giving the athlete the same consideration I would give to Don Fatale.


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## Don Fatale

Bulldog said:


> I'll always assume that an athlete is not on drugs unless proven otherwise. So I'm giving the athlete the same consideration I would give to Don Fatale.


Thanks for that! I never touch drugs.... honestly. ;-)

Sadly, I'll always be reserved about whether an athlete is taking drugs. There are signs to look for in athletes and their progression, their demeanor, who they train with, etc.. If I had the assumption that every athlete was on drugs, I just wouldn't follow the sport and wouldn't bother to be here in this discussion.


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## Barbebleu

What in the name of Jesse Owens is this thread doing on this forum? There's a clue in the name - Talk Classical. Come on moderators, do your job and cut out the spurious non-musical threads please. I don't come to this forum to discuss religion, morality or politics unless it closely, and I emphasise closely, impinges on the subject of what is generally perceived as classical music.


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## elgar's ghost

It's always going to be an issue now - even more than ever. Yes, the finger always pointed against the Soviet Union and East Germany but whatever abuse then was state-endorsed and it was not easy for political reasons for investigating further. 

To be honest, those were more innocent times because an Olympian athlete was supposed to be strictly amateur - at least on the surface. I remember the likes of Valery Borzov, Renate Stecher and Heike Drechsler as being fantastic athletes and, in the case of the last two, they were talented enough to win the prizes even without the enforced assistance of a state-sponsored doping programme. Valery Borzov was always a true Olympian - a credit to his nation and a genuine spirit of the games.


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## Don Fatale

Barbebleu said:


> What in the name of Jesse Owens is this thread doing on this forum? There's a clue in the name - Talk Classical. Come on moderators, do your job and cut out the spurious non-musical threads please. I don't come to this forum to discuss religion, morality or politics unless it closely, and I emphasise closely, impinges on the subject of what is generally perceived as classical music.


This is in the community forum alongside threads about beer, funny pictures, cats, NFL, Camus, blonde actresses, a poll about porridge, creepy pictures. etc. Why has this particular one offended you so much?


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## Wood

elgars ghost said:


> It's always going to be an issue now - even more than ever. Yes, the finger always pointed against the Soviet Union and East Germany but whatever abuse then was state-endorsed and it was not easy for political reasons for investigating further.
> 
> To be honest, those were more innocent times because an Olympian athlete was supposed to be strictly amateur - at least on the surface. I remember the likes of Valery Borzov, *Renate Stecher and Heike Drechsler as being fantastic athletes and, in the case of the last two, they were talented enough to win the prizes even without the enforced assistance of a state-sponsored doping programme.* Valery Borzov was always a true Olympian - a credit to his nation and a genuine spirit of the games.


Sorry EG, but it is not possible to tell whether these athletes would have been good enough to win clean because they were on the State Assisted programmes, so we will never know how good they could have been.

Also I would be very very surprised if Borzov didn't take steroids.


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## sharik

Wood said:


> Also I would be very very surprised if Borzov didn't take steroids.


even more so about all athletes since the 1990s up until this very day.


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## sospiro

The revelation that one of my track/field heroes is a drug cheat has happened once too often now and I didn't even watch the London Olympics. Drug cheats should face a lifetime ban and the fact that Dwain Chambers is allowed to compete is immoral.

The words from Marita Koch are fascinating if you examine them closely.



> "I have a clear conscience. I can only repeat myself... I never tested positive"


IMO 'Never tested positive' can be interpreted as 'never caught'



> "I never did anything which I should not have done at that time"


IMO 'at that time' it was OK to do it


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## Guest

Spin doctors are very popular, sospiro. We currently have no published plans to wreck the NHS, privatise it, make us and our fellow rich friends even richer and **** everyone else.


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## sospiro

dogen said:


> Spin doctors are very popular, sospiro. We currently have no *published* plans to wreck the NHS, privatise it, make us and our fellow rich friends even richer and **** everyone else.


Indeed.

My local bus company has 'revised' its timetables and cut lots of routes. It's put stupid smiley faces all over the announcements that they've had 'a make-over'. Why can't they say that they weren't making enough profit so they've put the fares up and cut services?

[Sorry OT, and rant over]


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## Jos

Keep an eye on this Dutch lady, Daphne Schippers; clean and very fast !!


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## Barbebleu

Don Fatale said:


> This is in the community forum alongside threads about beer, funny pictures, cats, NFL, Camus, blonde actresses, a poll about porridge, creepy pictures. etc. Why has this particular one offended you so much?


You are absolutely correct. I apologise for singling this one out and it doesn't offend me at all. I was in a particularly grumpy mood for reasons that I won't bore you with and when I saw another non-musical thread I'm afraid I snapped. Sorry Don, I'm always pleased to see your musical postings and the remedy is simple. There is no one twisting my arm to read these threads so I will just not read them. Problem solved! Cheers from not so sunny Scotland.


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## Don Fatale

Jos said:


> View attachment 76222
> 
> 
> Keep an eye on this Dutch lady, Daphne Schippers; clean and very fast !!


 The Dutch should be proud of her. Excellent athlete.


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## Don Fatale

sospiro said:


> The revelation that one of my track/field heroes is a drug cheat has happened once too often now and I didn't even watch the London Olympics. Drug cheats should face a lifetime ban and the fact that Dwain Chambers is allowed to compete is immoral.
> The words from Marita Koch are fascinating if you examine them closely.
> IMO 'Never tested positive' can be interpreted as 'never caught'
> IMO 'at that time' it was OK to do it


I remember being at the European Champs in Munich when Dwain Chambers was at his 'peak'. And further back at the Barcelona Olympics '92 when I cheered Linford Christie's win. It leaves the dedicated fans feeling like mugs for having cheered them on.

_Never tested positive_ has become a cypher for _got away with it_. It's something a clean athlete would never think of saying. Always make me chuckle when I hear an athlete say it.

Marita Koch would surely sleep better if she'd come clean, so to speak, and accept what everybody else knows. It was interesting to hear (in the same interview) that many past athletes had asked for the own records to be expunged. Some very sorry tales.


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## Jos

Remember this one ? 
I agree that drugs have no place in sports, but at the same time I still feel sorry for fast Ben. The chemicals are no substitute for training, and very hard training. In this particular case there is even a political angle to it. Carl Lewis HAD to win for America and it was rumoured that Johnson was framed. There is a documentary about it, interesting and a bit sad.
I can't help being in awe with these athletes despite their flaws. Did track and field myself for 3 years, no Belgium doctors were ever present, I probably wasn't good enough....


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## sharik

Jos said:


> Keep an eye on this Dutch lady, Daphne Schippers; clean


but how do you know?


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## Jos

I don't know 100% sure, but I do have faith in her from what I've red. Hopefully I won't be proven wrong.


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## Don Fatale

I must admit that the current women's world record holder Paula Radcliffe was once in trouble with the authorities on a drugs related matter during the 2001 World Championships...









The cute girl next to her is the British athlete Hayley Tullett.


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## sospiro

Russia should be banned from athletics competition, a World Anti-Doping Agency commission report has recommended.

I hope that Seb Coe is strong enough to sort this mess but I doubt it.


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## Pugg

sospiro said:


> Russia should be banned from athletics competition, a World Anti-Doping Agency commission report has recommended.
> 
> I hope that Seb Coe is strong enough to sort this mess but I doubt it.


Hear hear.:cheers:


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## The Member Who Forgot

Can people really go faster and faster without some sort of artificial enhancement?
Perhaps just the detections have improved recently?


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## TxllxT

Is there a drug that will arouse my taste to watch a sports event? Tour de France, World Championship Football, Athletics, you name it and I've already lost all interest...


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## Don Fatale

sospiro said:


> Russia should be banned from athletics competition, a World Anti-Doping Agency commission report has recommended.
> 
> I hope that Seb Coe is strong enough to sort this mess but I doubt it.


This is a tough one, but given that there are state-sponsored drug programs it's time to look at collective punishments, i.e. nations barred from next games, no matter who they might be.

The whole news story with the cheating and corruption is making me sick to my stomach.


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## clavichorder

Vaneyes said:


> "Devil weed."


Lucifer's lettuce.


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## sospiro

Don Fatale said:


> This is a tough one, but given that there are state-sponsored drug programs it's time to look at collective punishments, i.e. nations barred from next games, no matter who they might be.
> 
> The whole news story with the cheating and corruption is making me sick to my stomach.


I feel the same. Russia is implicated in the FIFA row as well but Russia is so powerful I don't think anyone or any organisation has the wherewithal to stop them.


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## Pugg

sospiro said:


> Russia should be banned from athletics competition, a World Anti-Doping Agency commission report has recommended.
> 
> I hope that Seb Coe is strong enough to sort this mess but I doubt it.


Did you see BBC Breakfast Annie?

Lord Coe is in a bit of trouble, conflict of interest.
Nike sponsoring .


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## sospiro

Pugg said:


> Did you see BBC Breakfast Annie?
> 
> Lord Coe is in a bit of trouble, conflict of interest.
> Nike sponsoring.


I didn't see it but I've read about this conflict of interest. Also about Eugene.

Very disappointing.


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## sospiro

Interesting suggestion that all records be annulled but that would penalise the clean athletes who have broken records.


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## Wood

sospiro said:


> Interesting suggestion that all records be annulled but that would penalise the clean athletes who have broken records.


That is probably jumping the gun, because all that will happen is that new world records will be created by current dopers. What I think should happen, but probably won't, is that all athletes who have been shown to have doped at some point in their career, and all athletes who were part of a systematic doping process, should have their whole career records expunged. Moreover athletes who have been proven to have cheated at specific events should have to return their prize money and be prosecuted for fraud. It should also be made possible to sue these cheats for any financial or other damage caused by their cheating.

Of course, the dopers are at the bottom of the food chain. The dealers, in particular the team doctors and the University Professors who run the programmes with high degrees of sophistication should be jailed for a very long time for deliberately inflicting these poisons into these otherwise fit and healthy young people.

This will not happen, due largely to the vested interests of many parties, including the BBC to whom you linked.

It wouldn't solve all the problems, but ultimately a return to amateur codes of the major and Olympic sports would have a great effect in eliminating the low life sc#m who have spoilt elite forms of the games, and turned them into drug fuelled money-making scams with chemically fuelled young people participating in meaningless television 'spectaculars'.

My first rant of 2016! I enjoyed it.


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## Belowpar

Wood said:


> It wouldn't solve all the problems, but ultimately a return to amateur codes of the major and Olympic sports would have a great effect in eliminating the low life sc#m who have spoilt elite forms of the games, and turned them into drug fuelled money-making scams with chemically fuelled young people participating in meaningless television 'spectaculars'.
> 
> My first rant of 2016! I enjoyed it.


Really? Look at sports where the Amateur still exists in name e.g. Golf. They are just sponsored young athletes who are totally professional in their approach to the game and thus will do whatever it takes to get to the next level. There is no difference in ethos between the two groups, not today.

We can blame the money, the fame etc, but does anyone not believe that whoever and whatever gets exposed this time will just serve as lessons for the next bunch to learn from? Can an end can be put to it? Is there anyway to go back to the "Amateur" ethos? Sport is now tainted for ever. Perhaps we need to just accept that amateurism is dead and so is non enhanced performance. I can't believe this charade will end any other way. Sad isn't it?

Many are angry because (I think) they are seeing evidence that something they grew up valuing as pure and exalted is revealed as thoroughly corrupt and disreputable. One has to then mention that the dopers are 'fixed' by Doctors. Yes Doctors. Where do the professional bodies stand on this. Silence?

Doesn't leave one feeling any better about human nature. That's why a little bit of me wants to believe..that one or two are still battling and succeeding against all the odds, undoped. More sadness because even though I do believe they actually exist, I'll never feel confident in knowing their names.


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## Jos

Dutch discusthrower Ria Stalman, olympic champ of 1984, came clear on the dopingissue last week. Some 32 years later. Sad, but I do understand her frustration about the eastern-block athletes. I don't judge her too harshly, I remember those olympics and the cheering for the Dutch performances.


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## Wood

Belowpar said:


> Really? Look at sports where the Amateur still exists in name e.g. Golf. They are just sponsored young athletes who are totally professional in their approach to the game and thus will do whatever it takes to get to the next level. There is no difference in ethos between the two groups, not today.
> 
> We can blame the money, the fame etc, but does anyone not believe that whoever and whatever gets exposed this time will just serve as lessons for the next bunch to learn from? Can an end can be put to it? Is there anyway to go back to the "Amateur" ethos? Sport is now tainted for ever. Perhaps we need to just accept that amateurism is dead and so is non enhanced performance. I can't believe this charade will end any other way. Sad isn't it?
> 
> Many are angry because (I think) they are seeing evidence that something they grew up valuing as pure and exalted is revealed as thoroughly corrupt and disreputable. One has to then mention that the dopers are 'fixed' by Doctors. Yes Doctors. Where do the professional bodies stand on this. Silence?
> 
> Doesn't leave one feeling any better about human nature. That's why a little bit of me wants to believe..that one or two are still battling and succeeding against all the odds, undoped. More sadness because even though I do believe they actually exist, I'll never feel confident in knowing their names.


As you say, the amateur golfers are amateur in name only. I share your pessimism and agree with you about the anger against the beauty of sport being irretrievably tarnished. For years I have stopped following athletic sports, preferring to participate in them at a (very) low level instead.

Ultimately, it is the participants who have to decide for themselves whether or not they want to play to the same codes and be affiliated to the same organisations as those of the corrupt power elites. At the current time, I am not aware of any move toward separation, more is the pity.


----------



## Haydn man

Track and Field athletics is in major trouble and appears to be unable to know how to deal with the problem.
As an example Justin Gatlin returns to sprinting after a doping ban and at the age of 32 runs quicker than he has ever done. So when younger and using performancing enhancing drugs he was slower than he is now. What conclusions do the IAAF come to on that I wonder?


----------



## Pugg

And yet I watched a bit of the E.K championship skating last weekend and the winner; Sven Kramer is free of all sort of drug.
I eat my had if it's not true, whilst this is a sport whether ever tented of a second counts .


----------



## Wood

Pugg said:


> And yet I watched a bit of the E.K championship skating last weekend and the winner; Sven Kramer is free of all sort of drug.
> I eat my had if it's not true, whilst this is a sport whether ever tented of a second counts .


I don't know the guy, so can't comment about him, but people have often said this about sports stars in the past, only to feel betrayed and disappointed when they are caught doping.


----------



## Pugg

According to a new bulletin V.Poetin is also heavily involved in corruption, on the sport front that is


----------



## Pugg

Today they did a poll on listners to a discussion programme on our National Radio .
The question was:Clean athletes must explicitly deny doping

Friday, January 15th in Stand.nl
Clean athletes must explicitly deny doping
The international athletics federation IAAF failed completely in the fight against doping.
This is evident from part two of the report of Anti-Doping Agency WADA. 
This is again just another story about abuses in the sport.
Outcome: Earlier this week the British Athletics Federation urged all to delete all existing world records in athletics. "

*60 % agree ( 420 )
40 % disagreed ( 284 )
704 votes*


----------



## Wood

Don't dirty athletes have to explicitly deny doping too? Very clever, thats how you'd find the dopers.:lol:


----------



## Pugg

In my country the cycle sport is very popular, lots off fans and so on.
Normally they are sponsored by a bank , they (the bank) had to cut back and guess what:new sponsor is found, a Betting company, how stupid can a royal cycling union be


----------



## KenOC

Today: "MONACO (AP) — The winner of women's race at the 2013 Los Angeles Marathon has received a two-year doping ban.

The IAAF said Wednesday that Aleksandra Duliba of Belarus was sanctioned for a biological passport violation. The passport program monitors an athlete's blood profile over time for evidence of doping.

Duliba won the Los Angeles race in her marathon debut in 2 hours, 26 minutes, 8 seconds. In addition to the $25,000 first prize, Duliba won a $50,000 bonus."


----------



## Pugg

Sad to see that it will never stop, I wonder how long tennis will be clean, if ever


----------



## ArtMusic

Sports is a big industry of course and because there is a lot of money involved ....


----------



## Kivimees

Danish composer Rudolph Simonsen won a bronze medal at the 1928 Summer Olympics in Amsterdam in music (Orchestral):






I don't know if he took performance enhancing drugs.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

KenOC said:


> 99% of Russian athletes? A startling article from the BBC. Seems to have stirred things up.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/30324812


Always check the credibility of such information. Sounds like pretty cheap propaganda to me, no offense intended of course.


----------



## Pugg

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Always check the credibility of such information. Sounds like pretty cheap propaganda to me, no offence intended of course.


Normally I would agree with you however there's a lot of smoke, so the fire can't be that far


----------



## Wood

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Always check the credibility of such information. Sounds like pretty cheap propaganda to me, no offense intended of course.


Not too credible, it was just a quote from a discus thrower. Nevertheless, the article also mentions the London Marathon winner admitting paying the Russian Federation £350k to cover up a failed drug test. When there is so much money in the sport that an athlete can afford to do this, it would appear that there isn't too much hope. The Russians have been caught, but they've probably been careless. I'd be very surprised if this wasn't widespread at the elite level around the world.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Wood said:


> Not too credible, it was just a quote from a discus thrower. Nevertheless, the article also mentions the London Marathon winner admitting paying the Russian Federation £350k to cover up a failed drug test. When there is so much money in the sport that an athlete can afford to do this, it would appear that there isn't too much hope. The Russians have been caught, but they've probably been careless. I'd be very surprised if this wasn't widespread at the elite level around the world.


Behind such remarks (99% of Russian athletes use doping), I see the attempts to discredit anything that is Russian - if a Russian athlete ever achieves greatness on an international scale, he/she has to be degraded, called a fake, an impostor, in order to re-establish the notion that Russians can never achieve anything great - i.e. a retrograde civilization destined for ruin and an inglorious fall. Luckily, not all Russian athletes are this 'disliked' in Western countries - take, for example, great Russian ice hockey players such as Alexander Ovechkin, Evgeny Malkin, Vladimir Tarasenko, Artemiy Panarin, Evgeny Kuznetsov, Nikita Kucherov - these players are loved and admired by their fans in the US. Why can't some people just accept that Russians CAN achieve greatness? Is that really that hard??


----------



## Belowpar

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I see the attempts to discredit anything that is Russian ....
> 
> Why can't some people just accept that Russians CAN achieve greatness? Is that really that hard??


1
That's not really how the west works. Yes Putin isn't popular but please produce evidence that there is some international conspiracy to get at him (not all Russians) by discrediting sports stars.

2
There is evidence of Russian athlete's who have doped. The question is how widespread is it? The same Question applies to anywhere in the world, but real evidence leads us to the reasonable conclusion that it's a problem in some countries more so than others. Similarly there is now doubt about the achievements of ANY athlete in ANY sport t today. No matter where they come from or what sport they participate in. e.g. Golf. To my knowledge no one has ever really been caught doping (VJ Sing?) but there's circumstantial evince involving blood Doctors that leave many chilled because we know what those Doctors achieve in other sports. Face it its a problem.

3
Just dismissing these allegations as propaganda is....nothing but propaganda.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Belowpar said:


> 1
> That's not really how the west works. Yes Putin isn't popular but please produce evidence that there is some international conspiracy to get at him (not all Russians) by discrediting sports stars.
> 
> 2
> There is evidence of Russian athlete's who have doped. The question is how widespread is it? The same Question applies to anywhere in the world, but real evidence leads us to the reasonable conclusion that it's a problem in some countries more so than others. Similarly there is now doubt about the achievements of ANY athlete in ANY sport t today. No matter where they come from or what sport they participate in. e.g. Golf. To my knowledge no one has ever really been caught doping (VJ Sing?) but there's circumstantial evince involving blood Doctors that leave many chilled because we know what those Doctors achieve in other sports. Face it its a problem.
> 
> 3
> Just dismissing these allegations as propaganda is....nothing but propaganda.


I don't think I need to prove anything - look at the recent BBC 'report' on Putin's alleged 40 billion dollars of wealth, without a shred of credible proof (nevermind information which simply cannot be true, as one person stated that he had been on the infamous multi-million yacht in 2002, whereas the yacht was actually only built in 2014). This was also coupled with absolutely ludicrous statements about the alleged cost of Putin's sports suit, which was estimated at 3000 $ - all of this was combined with claims that Putin lives a life of such opulence, that not even Europe's most 'loaded' billionaires could ever compete. 
Look at MH-17 and the immediate attempt to blame everything on Russia, despite the fact that the plane was lead into a war zone on purpose, and Russia could not have done that. What about the alleged presence of Russian troops in the Ukraine, which still hasn't been proven. 
Russia, in the media world, is currently being attacked from all directions in attempts to utterly discredit the country, and also its people. Doping exists in every country, it's just that Russia was singled out for a hysteria outburst. Take the Litvinenko case which recently surfaced, again without utterly conclusive proof - imo, all of this has to do with the Syrian conflict and the uncomfortable situation into which Russia placed the US government regarding both the efficacy of their battle against ISIS and the general turmoil which their intervention into the Ukraine has caused. 
Thus, I am generally extremely skeptical of 'horror stories' about Russia shown in Western media sources. Russian media also tends to exaggerate certain facets of life in Western countries, that I won't deny. But when it comes to war or more serious issues, Russian media definitely avoids criticizing a certain party without providing any credible proof.


----------



## Belowpar

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I don't think I need to prove anything - look at the recent BBC 'report' on Putin's alleged 40 billion dollars of wealth, without a shred of credible proof (nevermind information which simply cannot be true, as one person stated that he had been on the infamous multi-million yacht in 2002, whereas the yacht was actually only built in 2014). This was also coupled with absolutely ludicrous statements about the alleged cost of Putin's sports suit, which was estimated at 3000 $ - all of this was combined with claims that Putin lives a life of such opulence, that not even Europe's most 'loaded' billionaires could ever compete.
> Look at MH-17 and the immediate attempt to blame everything on Russia, despite the fact that the plane was lead into a war zone on purpose, and Russia could not have done that. What about the alleged presence of Russian troops in the Ukraine, which still hasn't been proven.
> Russia, in the media world, is currently being attacked from all directions in attempts to utterly discredit the country, and also its people. Doping exists in every country, it's just that Russia was singled out for a hysteria outburst. Take the Litvinenko case which recently surfaced, again without utterly conclusive proof - imo, all of this has to do with the Syrian conflict and the uncomfortable situation into which Russia placed the US government regarding both the efficacy of their battle against ISIS and the general turmoil which their intervention into the Ukraine has caused.
> Thus, I am generally extremely skeptical of 'horror stories' about Russia shown in Western media sources. Russian media also tends to exaggerate certain facets of life in Western countries, that I won't deny. But when it comes to war or more serious issues, Russian media definitely avoids criticizing a certain party without providing any credible proof.


I'm afraid you are just repeating the same argument whilst using some obvious hyperbole as an excuse not to admit there's a problem and that Russia is one of the places where evidence shows it to be most acute.

The sport has been in denial for so many reasons, yours is just one of them.

My part in this correspondence is now closed.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Belowpar said:


> I'm afraid you are just repeating the same argument whilst using some obvious hyperbole as an excuse not to admit there's a problem and that Russia is one of the places where evidence shows it to be most acute.
> 
> The sport has been in denial for so many reasons, yours is just one of them.
> 
> My part in this correspondence is now closed.


Are you going to deny the fact that anti-Russian propaganda is a normal element in Western media? Because that would be foolish. Secondly, the WADA organization is not independent of funding by national governments: "Initially funded by the International Olympic Committee, WADA now receives half of its budgetary requirements from them, with the other half coming from various national governments." (taken from Wikipedia) And, note that their 'investigation' was focused entirely on Russia. Is it not hypocritical of an organization that claims to be responsible for anti-doping violations in the entire world (and there are plenty of athletes outside Russia who dope) to be focusing all of its power to prove that 'all of Russia dopes', whilst seemingly ignoring doping issues in other countries? And then the next move by Western bodies is to attempt to *ban * Russian athletes from world sport altogether! I mean, this is unprecedented and a spit in the face to all Russian athletes who have never doped, besides being highly disrespectful to Russia as a country.

This focus on Russia could be beneficial for WADA in two ways. First of all, it is beneficial for the US government to spread propaganda against Russia. Second of all, having WADA controllers enter Russia en masse gives WADA a huge amount of profit, since the Russians would have to pay for these services.

Now, I'm not saying that doping isn't a problem in Russia, yes, there are some problems and the report does point out some suspicious things like the alleged destruction of doping samples. But, once again, why is the report only focussing on Russia? I mean, isn't this in itself suspicious?

Why can't Russia start a huge documentary about American baseball players, with people like Mark McGwire and José Conseco openly admitting that they've doped, whilst also saying that this was pretty 'common practice' in the MLB, and then file an 'independent international report' against them and, based on this, attempt to ban all US athletes from world sports? I'd like to see the reaction of US citizen to that.


----------



## Pugg

Sjarapova : "I didn't know " yeah right, she's a cheat, strip her from al her titles


----------



## KenOC

Just track and field? How about tennis? "Nike suspends relationship with Maria Sharapova after tennis star said she failed a drug test." One article says she is the highest-paid woman in sports.


----------



## Pugg

KenOC said:


> Just track and field? How about tennis? "Nike suspends relationship with Maria Sharapova after tennis star said she failed a drug test." One article says she is the highest-paid woman in sports.


I just posted that #90


----------



## Wood

It is a shame that the Spanish government suppressed the release of the names of tennis players on Dr Fuentes books, as we would then have a greater insight into the problem of doping in tennis. On past form in other sports, it is likely that the poisoning and fraud exists from the top down.


----------



## Pugg

And again a Russian, this time a ice skater Pavel Koelizjnikov


----------



## Ilarion

And my former girlfriend Maria Sharapova


----------



## sospiro

What I can't understand is that Nike dropped Sharapova like a hot brick but after initially withdrawing its sponsorship of Justin Gatlin, subsequently renewed it after he'd served his ban.

What sort of message is this for drug cheats?!


----------



## Wood

sospiro said:


> What I can't understand is that Nike dropped Sharapova like a hot brick but after initially withdrawing its sponsorship of Justin Gatlin, subsequently renewed it after he'd served his ban.
> 
> What sort of message is this for drug cheats?!


Nike backed Lance Armstrong for years after his doping was known about in the public domain. They also use Bangladeshi children to make their premium priced products. Like most companies, they are amoral and seek to maximise shareholder value.

So yes, why have they dropped Sharapova so quickly? It is a good question. Do they know something about her that we don't?


----------



## Guest

Is a side effect of her drug loud grunting?


----------



## Guest

Nike "just do it."


----------



## Haydn man

Interesting case with Miss Sharapova.
Admits to using a substance only available on prescription (but not available in the USA where she lives) so has to be obtained via her medical team. Known to be used by athletes for performance enhancing purposes so WADA issues a 3 month notice ahead of it being listed as a banned substance at the end of last year. Here is someone who is the centre of a multi million dollar brand with a medical team who fail to read the notices and information sent by WADA, and so presumably failed to notify the boss. Bad day for more than just one person I think.


----------



## Belowpar

"The Latvian company that manufactures meldonium says the normal course of treatment for the drug is four to six weeks - not the 10 years that Sharapova says she used the substance.

"Depending on the patient's health condition, treatment course of meldonium preparations may vary from four to six weeks. Treatment course can be repeated twice or thrice a year," the company said. "Only physicians can follow and evaluate patient's health condition and state whether the patient should use meldonium for a longer period of time."

While Grindeks has previously stated that the drug can provide an "improvement of work capacity of healthy people at physical and mental overloads and during rehabilitation period," the company said that it believed the substance would not enhance athletes' performance in competition and might even do the opposite.


"It would be reasonable to recommend them to use meldonium as a cell protector to avoid heart failure or muscle damage in case of unwanted overload," the company said.

Grindeks said that, in sports activity, the drug slows down how the body breaks down fatty acids to produce energy.

Grindeks did not comment when asked whether someone with the symptoms Sharapova described would be a suitable patient for meldonium. The company said it was designed for patients with chronic heart and circulation conditions, those recovering from illness or injury and people suffering with "reduced working capacity, physical and psycho-emotional overload."


----------



## Pugg

They all cheat, see it either left or right , they are cheating!!
No pardon, banned for life :devil:


----------



## Pugg

Another can of worms opens in the U.K.
Is this Sunday newspaper reliable? ( U.K residents question)


----------



## sospiro

Pugg said:


> Another can of worms opens in the U.K.
> *Is this Sunday newspaper reliable?* ( U.K residents question)


Sort of, if anything published by the Murdoch empire can be reliable. They don't claim that a WWII bomber was found on the moon ...










... but The Sunday Times was gullible enough to believe in and publish the 'Hitler Diaries' (pre Murdoch)










I imagine the drug story is true though!


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

My intuition tells me they are all doped. I don't really care, rather watch animal documentaries or play with a dog.


----------



## Pugg

Richannes Wrahms said:


> My intuition tells me they are all doped. I don't really care, rather watch animal documentaries or play with a dog.


Animal Planet / National Geographic :tiphat:


----------



## Kieran

Pugg said:


> Another can of worms opens in the U.K.
> Is this Sunday newspaper reliable? ( U.K residents question)


I'm not a UK citizen or resident but I get the Sunday Times in Ireland and consider it to be among the better sources of news. It's a story that several papers are running with now, and UKAD, the UK drug chaps, are now under pressure because they knew about Dr Bonar for two years, but did nothing about him "because he's not affiliated to any professional sports body."

Here's an article about it, from the Telegraph...


----------



## Pugg

Kieran said:


> I'm not a UK citizen or resident but I get the Sunday Times in Ireland and consider it to be among the better sources of news. It's a story that several papers are running with now, and UKAD, the UK drug chaps, are now under pressure because they knew about Dr Bonar for two years, but did nothing about him "because he's not affiliated to any professional sports body."
> 
> Here's an article about it, from the Telegraph...


It had no intention to offend anyone, so sorry if you felt that way :tiphat:
And, thanks for the link.


----------



## Kieran

Pugg said:


> It had no intention to offend anyone, so sorry if you felt that way :tiphat:
> And, thanks for the link.


Absolutely no offence was detected or felt, I just didn't want any confusion. There are a lot of links relating to this now, as the media scent blood. It's a story that'll grow. Perhaps with the Sharapova ban and the news that the Fuentes blood bags may finally be released after legal action, the Russian debacle etc, the drug cheats will be on the run for a while (although they can run quite fast, in fairness, given the unfair advantage they have :lol: )...


----------



## Belowpar

The Sunday Times were instrumental in exposing the abuse by Cyclists. After issuing threats Lance Armstrong sued them and won. Just one of the payments back he's since had to make.

Quite a decent (sic) film was made about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Program_(2015_film)


----------



## seven four

Probably. Lots of people seem to be on drugs.


----------



## Pugg

seven four said:


> Probably. Lots of people seem to be on drugs.


This is about athletes, not your average neighbourhood in big city's


----------



## Pugg

I can not believe it, the drug cheats are getting away with it.

( leaked e-mail )


----------



## KenOC

Startling revelations from the Russian side.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ate-run-doping-fueled-olympic-gold/ar-BBsYnRt


----------



## Pugg

KenOC said:


> Startling revelations from the Russian side.
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ate-run-doping-fueled-olympic-gold/ar-BBsYnRt


Absolutely disgrace


----------



## sospiro

Pugg said:


> Absolutely disgrace


Agree with you. Feel so sorry for the competitors who would have got a medal if it wasn't for these cheats.

Now it looks like Kenya won't be represented at Rio. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/36275649


----------



## Pugg

At least I.A.A.F took a firm stand against cheaters from Russia, we ( The Netherlands) have one problem though, we missing 100 athletes at the coming games to be held held in our country next month .


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Funny man with big happy man face


----------



## Wood

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Funny man with big happy man face


The funny guy proposing to have athletes at the Galway Olympics competing for pharmaceutical companies rather than nations may be surprised to know that cycling's Tour of California is sponsored by Amgen, the major manufacturer of EPO.

This article helps to show that the crimes of Lance Armstrong and his fellow competitors are small beer compared to what big business gets up to:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/armstrongs-fraud-paralleled-epo-makers-feud/


----------



## Wood

It is not surprising but absolutely outrageous that cycling favourite Lizzie Armistead is allowed to compete in the Olympics after three 'whereabouts' violations. Surprise visits are vital in catching PED users, and athletes avoid the officials when their doctors find that they will be caught if they are tested.

Lizzie is a nice British girl and will make a lot of money for British Cycling if she wins a gold medal in Rio.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...d-olympic-reprieve-questioned-fellow-athletes


----------



## Pugg

Wood said:


> It is not surprising but absolutely outrageous that cycling favourite Lizzie Armistead is allowed to compete in the Olympics after three 'whereabouts' violations. Surprise visits are vital in catching PED users, and athletes avoid the officials when their doctors find that they will be caught if they are tested.
> 
> Lizzie is a nice British girl and will make a lot of money for British Cycling if she wins a gold medal in Rio.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...d-olympic-reprieve-questioned-fellow-athletes


I wonder what would have happened if she was from Russia .


----------



## joen_cph

Actually, the policy towards Russia has softened somewhat - around 270-280 of the 387 Olympic Games candidates are participating, according to very recent sources.


----------



## Merl

Meanwhile, in Russia................


----------



## joen_cph

Actually, some Russian politicians sincerely suggested an alternative Olympics there, happily free from Western decadence and domination of course.


----------



## Pugg

joen_cph said:


> Actually, some Russian politicians sincerely suggested an alternative Olympics there, happily free from Western decadence and domination of course.


The most ridiculous idea ever, the man is going bonkers.:devil:


----------



## joen_cph

I have been away on holiday; it turns out that some sort of alternative games were already held recently.


----------



## Wood

joen_cph said:


> Actually, some Russian politicians sincerely suggested an alternative Olympics there, happily free from Western decadence and domination of course.


It happened last week!

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jul/28/russian-athletes-defiance-rio-ban-alternative-olympics

They even had a new logo:


----------



## Merl

Wasn't that Sochi?


----------



## Pugg

Wood said:


> It happened last week!
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jul/28/russian-athletes-defiance-rio-ban-alternative-olympics
> 
> They even had a new logo:


​


----------



## sospiro

Wood said:


> It is not surprising but absolutely outrageous that cycling favourite Lizzie Armistead is allowed to compete in the Olympics after three 'whereabouts' violations. Surprise visits are vital in catching PED users, and athletes avoid the officials when their doctors find that they will be caught if they are tested.
> 
> Lizzie is a nice British girl and will make a lot of money for British Cycling if she wins a gold medal in Rio.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...d-olympic-reprieve-questioned-fellow-athletes


I agree with you. I have my doubts about Christine Ohuruogu too.


----------



## Wood

Effective revenge from the Russians would be to publish all of the dealings they have had with the IOC and the rest of the corrupt sporting feds hiding in Switzerland. It would be very funny.

Perhaps the risk of this happening is the reason for recent IOC backsliding.


----------



## Wood

sospiro said:


> I agree with you. I have my doubts about Christine Ohuruogu too.


Surely she isn't competing this time? 

Selectors shouldn't go anywhere near Farah either.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

Wood said:


> It is not surprising but absolutely outrageous that cycling favourite Lizzie Armistead is allowed to compete in the Olympics after three 'whereabouts' violations. Surprise visits are vital in catching PED users, and athletes avoid the officials when their doctors find that they will be caught if they are tested.
> 
> Lizzie is a nice British girl and will make a lot of money for British Cycling if she wins a gold medal in Rio.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...d-olympic-reprieve-questioned-fellow-athletes


That's fair comment, though I have no reason to think Armitstead is a drug cheat. One UK athlete who simply amazes me is Jo Pavey, a 10,000m runner about to compete in her 5th Olympics at the age of 42. If she is on something, I want it!


----------



## Wood

Pat Fairlea said:


> That's fair comment, though I have no reason to think Armitstead is a drug cheat. One UK athlete who simply amazes me is Jo Pavey, a 10,000m runner about to compete in her 5th Olympics at the age of 42. If she is on something, I want it!


You'd be better speaking to Jeannie Longo.


----------



## sospiro

Wood said:


> It is not surprising but absolutely outrageous that cycling favourite Lizzie Armistead is allowed to compete in the Olympics after three 'whereabouts' violations. Surprise visits are vital in catching PED users, and athletes avoid the officials when their doctors find that they will be caught if they are tested.
> 
> Lizzie is a nice British girl and will make a lot of money for British Cycling if she wins a gold medal in Rio.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...d-olympic-reprieve-questioned-fellow-athletes


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/36980029

:clap:

Give that girl an Oscar. (sorry to be so cynical)


----------



## Pugg

sospiro said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/36980029
> 
> :clap:
> 
> Give that girl an Oscar. (sorry to be so cynical)


I agree for best acting , best drama and honorary best not telling the whole truth .


----------



## sospiro

Pugg said:


> I agree for best acting , best drama and honorary best not telling the whole truth .


Surely if we can see that she's acting, lots of other people can as well.


----------



## Wood

Lizzie is following a time-honoured pattern in cycling. Playing the tearful victim of circumstances, getting sympathy from her home nation, it generally works pretty well.

Now it looks like the whole Brazilian team has hardly been tested for drugs.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...912&subid=18182679&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2_footer

This could be the funniest (and most tragic) Olympics ever.


----------



## Merl

I remember Paula 'drama llama' Radcliffe crying in the streets, at the Olympics. I found it hard to feel sorry for her because she'd done the 'victim of Circumstance' story so many times.


----------



## Merl

^And she also had a crap in the street. Ewwww.


----------



## arpeggio

I have been totally turned off of sports because of the corrupting influence of drugs and money. Between the Penn State scandal and the mess in Rio I really have problems following sports. For the first time in my life I did not watch an opening ceremony. I just turned on the TV and it was covering women's beach volleyball. I just could not watch it even with the skimpy bikinis.


----------



## Barbebleu

Merl said:


> I remember Paula 'drama llama' Radcliffe crying in the streets, at the Olympics. I found it hard to feel sorry for her because she'd done the 'victim of Circumstance' story so many times.


Yeah. Get the tissues, this one's got issues!!


----------



## sospiro

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-sport-doping-brazil-olympics-idUKKCN10G0G7

So WADA was "concerned". That's going to deter the cheating isn't it?!


----------



## Pugg

sospiro said:


> http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-sport-doping-brazil-olympics-idUKKCN10G0G7
> 
> So WADA was "concerned". That's going to deter the cheating isn't it?!


Tip of the iceberg Sospiro .


----------



## sospiro

Interesting article

" ... This is swimming of the Rio Olympics kind, poisoned as it is by the suspicion of cheating that the decision to allow Russians to compete has created. The suspicion is amplified when one of those Russians - Efimova - has served a 16-month suspension for doping, tested positive again for banned meldonium, been reprieved while that substance is investigated.
And then been *secreted into the start lists for this competition* when six previously banned Russians - including she - were not supposed to be taking part, as previously convicted cheats."



This typo is funny without meaning to be. That must be some drug!

" ... So embedded are the doubts that the default mode when the Hungarian Katinka Hosszu *was five months in front of the world record at one point on Sunday* was what substances were helping her. Hosszu has taken legal action in the past when her integrity has been questioned and there is no suggestion of illegal conduct but that moment on Sunday beggared belief."


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## KenOC

An interesting article on Soviet doping from a historical perspective. It seems that the Soviet doping program went into high gear when they were almost beaten in the 1976 Olympics by the East Germans, who had their own extensive doping practices.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/14/sports/olympics/soviet-doping-plan-russia-rio-games.html?_r=0


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## Pugg

Well, I am sure our athletes from yesterday are "clean" both record holder failed miserly.


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## sospiro

Pugg said:


> Well, I am sure our athletes from yesterday are "clean" both record holder failed miserly.


Oh dear. If you're going to cheat, you had better do it properly!


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## Johnnie Burgess

Pugg said:


> Well, I am sure our athletes from yesterday are "clean" both record holder failed miserly.


The tests in the past just could not catch them.


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## Pugg

sospiro said:


> Oh dear. If you're going to cheat, you had better do it properly!


Daphe did very strange , seems she have a groin injury.


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## KenOC

A slightly different angle on doping...


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## KenOC

Somebody (the Russians?) hacked the records of The World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada). Seems that a lot of athletes, including Venus and Serena Williams and gymnastics star Simone Biles are taking no-no medications under what are called "therapeutic use exemptions" (TUEs). For instance, Biles says she is taking the banned medication because of her ADHD.

The hacker said that TUEs amount to "licenses for doping". It does make one wonder.


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