# How to get into Bruckner and Mahler



## Telramund

Hey there 

I am an avid listener of opera music and therefor adore Wagner. However I think it's time for me to broaden my horizon and try out other composers. 
I always hear and read so much about Mahler and Bruckner but I've never managed to get into their work, especially their symphonies. 
Which ones do you recommend?


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## david johnson

For me, it was Mahler 1 & 2, and Bruckner 9.


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## CnC Bartok

For me, it was Mahler 1 & 4, and Bruckner 4.

These two Mahler symphonies are the "lightest" of the Ten, and as such debatably the easiest to get a grip on. You could, I suppose say the same for Bruckner 4?

With Bruckner, the earlier couple of symphonies are not quite on the same level as 3 or 4 through to 9, so if you fancy a more "typically Brucknerian" start, maybe No.7 would hit the spot? 

I can't say if any of the Mahler symphonies would be the wrong one to start with, to be honest; maybe No.8 is a bit OTT. Nos.5 and 9 would be my secondary recommendation after 1&4.....just listen, and see what you like!!!


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## flamencosketches

Mahler's 4th was what changed my mind on Mahler. I like many others used to see his music as overblown, overemotional garbage (to speak hyperbolically). The 4th symphony, and particularly Fritz Reiner's recording of it, really changed my mind and won me over. Kubelik's recording of the 1st is also great. Both have a great sense of lightness and lyrical flow that makes them seem less long and daunting than they already might be. If you're already a Wagner fan, you may not need to go this route, and could start with something big and ambitious like the 2nd symphony. That symphony is so good it might just win you over on its own. Some recordings I like are Georg Solti with the LSO as well as Bernstein with the NYPO. 

I haven't cracked Bruckner yet, but I've been told to start with the 4th and the 9th. The 4th is pretty good, just a little dense for my tastes.


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## silencioso

Mahler was an instant "hit" with me and it was the Mahler #1 that did it for me.
As for Bruckner, it took a little bit longer but it was the Sym #4. Both pieces are very approachable. Later Mahler and Bruckner, both of whom I adore as composers, are more dependent on the conductor than most works - at least for me. Part of this is the architecture of their works and partly because of the large and varied nature of each movement.


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## D Smith

I would agree with Mahler 1 and Bruckner 4 and also with the conductor and orchestra being much more of a factor than with other composers. If you have favourite conductors who performed either of those you could start with them. There would be about as many different recommendations here as there are members I'm guessing! Good listening.


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## Art Rock

Love them both, definitely top10 composers for me.

For Mahler, I'd recommend starting with symphony 4, Das Lied von der Erde and the three main song cycles (Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Kindertotenlieder, Rueckertlieder).

For Bruckner, I'd recommend starting with symphony 4, then 8 and 9.


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## annaw

I also found it rather difficult to get into these two composers (especially Mahler for some reason).
Mahler 6th and Bruckner 7th did it for me. I must admit, I really like Karajan's Mahler 6th, but I know people have different opinions about that recording.


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## mbhaub

For Mahler, start with the Third. Take it in bites. The LONG first movement - listen to it several times over a few days. Then take the the second and third movements by themselves. Then the last three. It's beautiful music, exquisitely scored, and very moving. There are so many great recordings, but I'd go for one that doesn't try to make more of it than it is: my choices are Kubelik on DG or Lopez-Cobos on Telarc. Look at some pictures of the Austrian Alps and lakes while you're at it.

For Bruckner, also his Third. This was the Bruckner that Bernstein used on his TV series decades ago - and no wonder. It's one of the shorter symphonies, chock full of interesting tunes. Then comes the coda of the finale - one of the most thrilling, exciting things ever written as the trumpets, horns, and trombones blaze forth struggling to resolve a chord - and when they do!!! Exhilarating. Of course it takes a conductor who knows precisely how to pace it, an orchestra with a brass section to pull it off, a recording team that can capture it. Karajan with BPO on DG absolutely nail it. Then read Robert Simpson's book on the Bruckner symphonies - you'll never listen to this symphony the same again.


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## Becca

The problem with most of the Bruckner recommendations is that nobody is mentioning the particular version they are referring to. In some cases, the 3rd being a good example, that does make a difference. In the case of the 3rd, the original 1873 version is the best but for the 4th, the 1874 original is not, go for the 1878/80/81.


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## EdwardBast

Since you are coming from opera I'd say don't start with Mahler's symphonies. Start with _Das Lied von der Erde_! You will love it. Then song cycles, especially _Kindertotenlieder_. As for Bruckner, better ask someone else.


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## Haydn70

Telramund said:


> Hey there
> 
> I am an avid listener of opera music and therefor adore Wagner. However I think it's time for me to broaden my horizon and try out other composers.
> I always hear and read so much about Mahler and Bruckner but I've never managed to get into their work, especially their symphonies.
> Which ones do you recommend?


As for Bruckner, as a number of folks here already recommended: Symphony #4. And if you want to cheat a bit, i.e., just listen to one movement of a particular symphony v. the entire symphony, the slow movement of the 7th. Very Wagnerian, at least to my ears.


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## mbhaub

Becca said:


> The problem with most of the Bruckner recommendations is that nobody is mentioning the particular version they are referring to. In some cases, the 3rd being a good example, that does make a difference. In the case of the 3rd, the original 1873 version is the best but for the 4th, the 1874 original is not, go for the 1878/80/81.


Yes, there are 27 Bruckner symphonies in all - given all the versions and editions. Karajan used the 1888/89 Nowak. The original is certainly of interest, but Bruckner was correct in revising it (more than once). For newbies, stick to Nowak or Haas and you'll be fine. When you're totally addicted, then branch out to all the other versions out there.


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## brunumb

My first Mahler recording was an lp from the World Record Club of the *2nd* Symphony by the LSO with Solti. That did it!


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## bharbeke

Bruckner 4 with Wand and the BPO is the only full symphony I have liked so far from that composer.

For Mahler, 1-5 and 7 have all been good or better, but my opinion of each has varied greatly, depending on the performers.

Most of the pieces from these composers tend to be on the longer side, so they might make good companions with reading or other quieter activities.


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## Enthusiast

Bruckner 4 and 7 are the "traditional" ones to start with. Furtwangler's Bruckner seems closer to Wagner than most. For Mahler, my start was 5 - which I became obsessed with long before I knew any of the others. 1 and 9 came next. It took me a while to really get into 2, 4 and 7. I found 6 a little difficult at first but only, I think, because I wanted it to be like 5 ... which it is not.


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## flamencosketches

4, 1, and 2 all hooked me right away, though the latter perhaps because I had already been familiar with the other two. It's certainly very long and requires some serious attention span, but it is incredibly rewarding and perfectly paced without a bit of filler. Can't say that about all of them (5, for example, has moments that seem superfluous to me–though I probably just don't understand it yet; I'm beyond doubting Mahler's intentions at this point–and then 3 I just do not get).


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## DeepR

Honestly, I don't think it really matters where you start. You can get into their music by listening, a lot. 
Focus on one piece at a time. Or even one movement at a time, before you listen to the next one, or the entire symphony. That's what works for me at least. It may take me months before I move on to the next big piece.

I'm into Bruckner's 5th at the moment. Just this morning I listened again to the finale, while going to work by train. It simply lit me up inside and a few times I almost burst into tears from the pure joy that it brought me. And for the rest of the day, its themes were still running in my head. With Bruckner in the morning I can make it through every mundane workday like a breeze.


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## annaw

Haydn70 said:


> As for Bruckner, as a number of folks here already recommended: Symphony #4. And if you want to cheat a bit, i.e., just listen to one movement of a particular symphony v. the entire symphony, the slow movement of the 7th. Very Wagnerian, at least to my ears.


If I'm not mistaken, then the slow movement of the 7th is actually written in anticipation of Wagner's death.


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## Guest

I've not yet been hooked by Bruckner, so can't comment. I was first hooked by Mahler's 6th, then 5th, then 1st and 3rd.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Try the Mahler First with Bruno Walter/New York Philharmonic (mono) or with the Columbia Symphony in stereo...or Rafael Kubelik with the Bavarian Radio Symphony.

For Bruckner, sample his Seventh Symphony with either Klemperer/Philharmonia Orchestra or Giulini/Vienna Philharmonic.


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## Becca

I do not mean to imply that the responses offered in a thread such as this are without value but the problem with asking for recommendations about any composer (or conductor or...) is that you will end up getting 20 or 30 responses with 40 or 50 different recommendations therefore leaving the poor OP even more confused than before  Given the variety of places where the works can be sampled, I would always suggest going to them to get an idea of what triggers a response in the listener.


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## starthrower

Becca said:


> I do not mean to imply that the responses offered in a thread such as this are without value but the problem with asking for recommendations about any composer (or conductor or...) is that you will end up getting 20 or 30 responses with 40 or 50 different recommendations therefore leaving the poor OP even more confused than before  Given the variety of places where the works can be sampled, I would always suggest going to them to get an idea of what triggers a response in the listener.


Agreed. Forget recommendations and just start anywhere.


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## howlingfantods

I went in the other direction--Mahler and Bruckner to Wagner. For Mahler, I'd start with the 6th or maybe the 5th, not the 4th--the 4th is a light, cheerful and folksy symphony, whereas the 5th and the 6th are more emotionally weighty and powerful, and I think is more the sort of thing that fellow Wagnerians would like. For Bruckner, I'd say the 9th is a good place to start--very powerful and stormy.

Of course, Wagner contains multitudes. Maybe if your favorite Wagner is act 2 of Siegfried, with the forest murmurs and the waldvogel music, the Mahler 4 might be the right place to start.


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## Telramund

Yes, I read somewhere as well, that Bruckner somehow anticipated Wagner's death. So haunting!


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## annaw

Telramund said:


> Yes, I read somewhere as well, that Bruckner somehow anticipated Wagner's death. So haunting!


It gets even better, Bruckner's 3rd is also called his "Wagner symphony". Bruckner was evidently inspired by Wagner's works.


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## Telramund

So after listening for a couple of days my conclusion concerning what I liked from Mahler
- Lied von der Erde (especially 2nd movement)
- Kindertotenlieder (especially 1st Lied)
- 5th symphony (Adagietto)
- 9th symphony (Adagio)

However I really couldn't get into a couple of his symphonies (1st, 2nd and 4th just went straight over my head)

From Bruckner I liked:
-4th symphony
- 7th symphony (the Adagio is simply incredible)

My conclusion was that what made these symphonies somewhat unaccessible were their sheer lengths. I know that you would think that coming from Wagner this wouldn't be an issue. However you can listen to totally different scenes of a single opera. I can enjoy the (marvellous, exquisite and heaven like) quintet from Die Meistersinger without having to listen to the whole 2 hour long 3rd act. It's not recommended to constantly switch between a symphony's movement, however I am tempted to do so if one alone is almost 30 minutes long.


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## Guest

Becca said:


> I do not mean to imply that the responses offered in a thread such as this are without value but the problem with asking for recommendations about any composer (or conductor or...) is that you will end up getting 20 or 30 responses with 40 or 50 different recommendations therefore leaving the poor OP even more confused than before  Given the variety of places where the works can be sampled, I would always suggest going to them to get an idea of what triggers a response in the listener.


It's a common enough query here - where shall I start? Or, I've found difficulty accessing x composer, what would you recommend? I would assume that whilst the OP _may _be looking for a simple unanimous recommendation, they are more likely hoping to find what people have to say about their 'journey' into the these composers' works. They will then pick and choose from the 20-30 responses the ones that seem most helpful, rather than be confused by their apparent contradictions. I have previously found that the Saturday Symphony series has been helpful in pointing me to recommended interpretations - not confusing at all.

One point made above could, I think, be particularly helpful, and that is the idea that Mahler might need to be consumed in pieces - for example, to listen to the first movement of the 3rd Symphony several times over. Others have done this without being quite so explicit, by simply recommending one movement (eg the Adagietto from the 5th). It's not an approach that works for me. In fact, it specifically worked against my liking of Mahler because I was prejudiced by the use of the Adagietto in _Death In Venice_, assuming all his work to be that soppy. But it might suit others.


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## Larkenfield

My entrance into Bruckner was Georg Tintner's performance of the Ninth Symphony - and I never turned back on discovering his others symphonies. It starts off like a coiled snake ready to strike with its reserve power... Tintner was a Bruckner specialist who went back to the early editions of these spiritually powerful symphonies. I've never heard Bruckner write an insincere or false note, perhaps because he was so highly spiritually directed that he felt he had to ultimately answer to God.


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## Josquin13

I think you've been given some good advice about where to begin with Mahler--i.e., his 1st & 4th, and then 5th & 9th, and thereafter the 2nd, 7th, 3rd, etc.. My favorite Mahler symphonies are his 2nd, which must be heard live, as it's an overwhelming experience in the concert hall (if done well), and 9th, which is one of the great symphonies I've heard in my life, & a work that has meant more to me as I've gotten older. In fact, all of Mahler's music must be heard live!, to fully appreciate how incredibly brilliant his orchestrations are, since it is virtually impossible for recording engineers to do justice to what is heard in the concert hall. However, recently the Japanese Exton label has done better than most, IMO, with their hybrid SACD recordings by conductors Manfred Honeck, Sakari Oramo, & Zdenek Macal (and possibly Eliahu Inbal & Vaclav Neumann). They may not offer the most super-ultimate Mahler performances, but they do come in phenomenal sound. Hence, if you want state of the art audiophile sound, Exton is a good place to look, along with Decca's hybrid SACDs of Riccardo Chailly's Mahler's 3 & 9, performed in Amsterdam, & his DVD Mahler 1-9 cycle with Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra (see below):





https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Zdene...k+macal+mahler&qid=1558725088&s=dmusic&sr=1-8
https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...ds=macal+mahler&qid=1558724915&s=music&sr=1-2https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004J39F7I/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp
https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...ahler+3&qid=1558724998&s=music&sr=1-1-catcorr
https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...ahler+3&qid=1558724998&s=music&sr=1-2-catcorr
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YEZM4FQ/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp

Here's a list of my favorite desert island Mahler discs, & I'll mention all of them, since I don't know which you'll respond to most favorably. You can sample as you wish--over time, of course, or use it as a future reference point, something to come back to, perhaps. In addition, I'll place an asterisk next to those recordings that I consider extra special:

1. Dame Janet Baker singing Mahler's 5 Rückert Lieder*--especially the beautiful song "Ich bin welt abhanden gekommen"*, translated--"I am lost to the world", and the Kindertotenlieder*, translated "Songs on the Death of Children", and Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen*, translated "Songs of a Wayfarer", with Sir John Barbirolli conducting the New Philharmonia Orchestra in 1969. Unfortunately, I see that the price for this legendary Mahler recording has become exorbitant on Amazon--so apparently EMI has allowed it to go out of print (?)--what a shame:

















https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7925574--mahler-song-cycles

2. Leonard Bernstein's 1960-67 Mahler cycle with the New York Philharmonic serves as a good basic introduction to Mahler's 9 Symphonies, and the Adagio to the unfinished 10th, but not so much his later digital DG cycle, in my view: where Bernstein's conducting is less precise, and his dynamics more extreme & even flaccid in comparison. (Bernstein was known to be an erratic conductor, sometimes brilliant, other times bad, and seldom anywhere in between, as he took risks.) However, Bernstein was very good in the 3rd, 6th, 7th, and 9th Symphonies from his 1960s NYP cycle* (as well as the 6th & 7th from his later DG cycle*--while others have liked his 1st, 3rd & 5th on DG...). The DSD Sony remasters for the 1960s cycle were initially made for the Japanese hybrid SACDs, and have improved the sound quality considerably from previous CD issues, which has made this Sony set one of the real bargains in the present catalogue (currently, it's a little more expensive than it used to be, as I've seen it for as low as $20-$22 on Amazon--which is a steal): https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Compl...ein+mahler+sony&qid=1558660834&s=music&sr=1-1:










Symphony No. 7 "Song of the Night" (IMO, the 7th shows Bernstein at his best):
Columbia/Sony: 



DG: 




In his formative years, Bernstein learned how to conduct Mahler by working as Bruno Walter's assistant in New York City--as Walter had been Mahler's protégé & close friend, and from Frederick Charles Adler (sometimes called F. Charles Adler), who Bernstein saw conduct Mahler at the Saratoga Festival in New York State. Like Walter, Adler had worked closely with the composer, and was the choral director for the premiere of Mahler's 8th Symphony, which was the last symphony that Mahler conducted. Both Walter & Adler's Mahler recordings are rites of passage for Mahlerites, & for those that wish to understand this music better, despite that the sound quality isn't ideal. In fact, I'd consider Adler's Mahler to have been a stronger influence on Bernstein than Walter's. Here are two Adler performances that I find fascinating, violin slides & all:

The premiere of Mahler's unfinished 10th*, with the LP program notes written by Alma Mahler, the composer's wife: 




Adler's Mahler 2nd in Vienna*: 




Willem Mengelberg (1871-1951) also worked closely with Mahler in Amsterdam, & gave premieres of his works, and wrote copious notes onto his conducting scores (with instructions from Mahler himself). These scores were closely studied by subsequent directors at the Concertgebouw, including Bernard Haitink and Riccardo Chailly, for their Mahler cycles. Mengelberg made two historic Mahler recordings: of the 4th and the Adagio from the 5th--which Mahler told him was composed as a love letter to his future wife, Alma. Interestingly, both Mengelberg & Walter take the Adagio faster than most conductors, who tend to draw it out, sometimes quite indulgently: as Bernstein does on his DG 5th, which loses a sense of immediacy & passion, in my view--however, there's no denying that the Adagio is also very tender & beautiful when taken slowly.

4th: 



5th Adagio: 




Walter's 5th Adagio: 



For the sake of comparison, here's Bernstein's 5th Adagio, on DG: 




Mahler also made some piano rolls of his music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PScJkkQPwwE: Clearly, no conductor has understood this music more deeply than Mahler himself, and therefore, the piano rolls serve as a primary source to gain a better understanding of his music. I only wish that Mahler had recorded many more of them, as I believe the general style & approach heard in these piano rolls gives us a very good idea about how he envisioned his music, symphonically.

3. Otto Klemperer's classic version of Das Lied von der Erde--translated, "The Song of the Earth", is a benchmark recording*, but Klemperer's Mahler Symphonies nos. 2, 4, 7* & 9* are excellent, too: https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...lemperer+mahler&qid=1558661110&s=music&sr=1-1. Klemperer likewise knew and worked with Mahler, so he is yet another conductor that heard Mahler conduct his own music.





https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Das-L...mahler+das+lied&qid=1558663159&s=music&sr=1-3









4. Bruno Walter--Mahler Symphony no. 4 with the New York Philharmonic*: Walter's 4th is where I began with Mahler, & I wore out my old Columbia Odyssey LP at college: https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00FJ7TWJO. I've never heard the 4th interpreted better, as there is a certain Viennese charm in Walter's interpretation that others don't quite achieve (except for possibly Klemperer). But be warned, it's a mono recording, and the sound isn't ideal: 



. Nevertheless, it goes with me to my desert island: https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...walter+mahler+4&qid=1558810521&s=music&sr=1-2

Walter's Mahler's 9th with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra is essential, too--considering that Mahler dedicated the 9th to Walter, and asked him to conduct its premiere, which sadly Mahler didn't live to see: 




Here's an interesting excerpt of Bruno Walter talking about Mahler: 




5. Sir John Barbirolli--Mahler Symphonies 5* & 6 (studio, EMI, with the New Philharmonia) and 9* (with the Berlin Philharmonic, EMI--one of my favorite 9ths), and as mentioned, Barbirolli's wonderful orchestral song cycles with Janet Baker.

*Barbirolli, Mahler 5: 



*Barbirolli, Mahler 9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywwc6rVJZzc: this is one of my favorite 9ths.

6. I'd also recommend a DVD of Leonard Bernstein conducting Mahler's 2nd "Resurrection" Symphony live at Ely Cathedral in England, with the London Symphony Orchestra*--a performance that I prefer to Bernstein's other two recordings of the 2nd. The recording features a young Janet Baker singing the Urlicht movement beautifully. The entire 1974 performance can be watched on You Tube: 



. (Note that the sound on the DVD release is superior to the CD releases, even the Japanese ones.)

7. Rafael Kubelik's Mahler 1* & 5* on DG, and an excellent live 1970 Das Lied von der Erde, with singers Janet Baker and Waldemar Kmentt, on the Audite label. Kubelik was great in the 7th, too, especially on this live Audite recording*: 



. At his best, Kubelik is another one of my favorite Mahler conductors:














(By the way, there is a classic Das Lied von der Erde from conductor Fritz Reiner with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra*, as well, and a terrific digital recording from Carla Maria Giulini on DG, see below--but Klemperer's remains my benchmark.)

8. Karol Ancerl--Mahler 1st* & 9th*, with the Czech Philhormonic, an orchestra that is known for their excellent Mahler playing. Ancerl's appropriately Bohemian 1st is a great performance!--arguably the finest 1st ever recorded, and makes an excellent place to start with Mahler!!, as it sets a high standard for Mahler conducting--strongly recommended:

*Ancerl, Symphony No. 1: 



https://www.amazon.com/Gold-Symphon...ancerl+mahler+1&qid=1558810644&s=music&sr=1-3

9. Carla Maria Giulini--Mahler 1*, 9*, and Das Lied von der Erde:

*Giulini, Symphony 9, Chicago Symphony Orchestra: 



 is one of my favorite Mahler 9ths. 
Giulini, Das Lied von der Erde: 



*Giulini, Symphony 1, Chicago Symphony Orchestra: 




10. Riccardo Chailly in Mahler 3, 8, 9, & 10. If you decide that you must have modern digital sound, which is understandable considering that Mahler's orchestral textures are so difficult to record well--as noted, Chailly's two Mahler cycles from (1) the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam (on CD & hybrid SACD--3 & 9), and (2) live from Leipzig (on DVD) make good choices--although I find that Chailly is at his best in the 3rd, 8th, 9th & 10th Symphonies (as well as the 2nd on DVD*). Btw, his early recording of the 10th is with the Berlin RSO, and it's great!*:

*Chailly, Symphony 10, Berlin RSO: 



Chailly, Symphony 9, studio, Concertgebouw: 



Chailly, Symphony 9, live, Leipzig, on DVD: 







http://accentus.com/discs/riccardo-chailly-gewandhausorchester-leipzig-mahler-9
Chailly, Symphony 3, studio, Concertgebouw: 



Chailly, Symphony 2, live, Leipzig, on DVD (excerpts): 



Chailly, Symphony 8, live, Leipzig, on DVD (excerpts): 




11. Gunther Herbig is another excellent digital era Mahler conductor, & probably my favorite: Herbig has recorded 5, 6, & 9. (Frustratingly, he's never been given a principal conductorship at a top tier orchestra, which is unfair & plain wrong--however, Herbig is known for building top notch orchestras wherever he goes, as he did in Toronto, Berlin, & Saarbrucken...):

*Herbig, Symphony 6: 



*Herbig, Symphony 5: 



*Herbig, Symphony 9: 








(For future reference, here are some names of other notable Mahler conductors that worked during the digital era: Claudio Abbado, Leif Segerstam, Klaus Tennstedt, Pierre Boulez, Eliahu Inbal, and Bernard Haitink (whose live 1980s Christmas matinee concerts at the Concertgebouw show Haitink's Mahler at its best--they're all on You Tube). While Sir Simon Rattle is good in the 10th and 2nd--with sopranos Dame Janet Baker & Arleen Auger in Birmingham. I've also liked Giuseppe Sinopoli's 2nd and 8th on DG, but not so much the rest of his DG cycle. Let's face it, having excellent digital sound quality in Mahler's music is necessary in order to hear the complete scores--even if the performances aren't always as perceptive and insightful as the oldies.

Otherwise, over time, you may wish to eventually explore the earlier Mahler recordings by conductors Jascha Horenstein, whose 3rd is highly regarded, Hans Rosbaud, Bruno Maderna, and Hermann Scherchen.)

Of course, the above suggestions are not meant to be explored all at once, but over time, as the spirit moves you.

My two cents.

I'll write a second, shorter post for my Bruckner recommendations...


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## flamencosketches

Larkenfield said:


> My entrance into Bruckner was Georg Tintner's performance of the Ninth Symphony - and I never turned back on discovering his others symphonies. It starts off like a coiled snake ready to strike with its reserve power... Tintner was a Bruckner specialist who went back to the early editions of these spiritually powerful symphonies. I've never heard Bruckner write an insincere or false note, perhaps because he was so highly spiritually directed that he felt he had to ultimately answer to God.


Damn! I saw this CD in the record store today and passed it up. I will have to try and find it next time I'm there. I was instructed to start with the 4th and 9th as far as Bruckner goes.

I also was this close to buying a CD of Bruckner Motets (also on Naxos), is anyone familiar with them? Any good?


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## flamencosketches

^Really enjoying this so far. I'll return to this recording. I like it more than I did the 4th.


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## Itullian

flamencosketches said:


> ^Really enjoying this so far. I'll return to this recording. I like it more than I did the 4th.


They grow on you


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## flamencosketches

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## Judith

Love Bruckner symhonies 4 & 9 and Mahler 1 and 5. Easiest way to get into them is to listen to them a few times and you'll soon get to know them


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## jimsumner

There are two historic Mahler recordings that deserve mention, partly because of performance, partly because of context. Both are in mono and probably shouldn't be anyone's first choice. But both were recorded by Bruno Walter, correctly praised by Josquin13 in his excellent summary.

In 1938 Walter conducted the VPO in Mahler's 9th Symphony, a powerful work frequently described as "death-haunted." This was right about the time of the Anschluss, the Nazi takeover of Austria. The VPO had a fair number of Jewish composers and they played this like their lives depended on it. It's quicker than any M9 I'm aware of but emotionally devastating.

In 1952 Walter conducted the VPO in "Das Lied von der Erde." It's in six movements, all sung. The great British contralto Kathleen Ferrier sang the three movements usually taken by the female voice. Those three movements take well over half of the work, including the final movement, "Der Abschied," translated as 'the Farewell," which is a half-hour long; the whole work is in the 62-67 minute range. 

The title barely hints at the emotional wasteland of the singer saying goodbye, to a friend, to life, to the world. But here's the kicker. Ferrier had been diagnosed with breast cancer and knew it was terminal. So, when she's singing this transcendent song of farewell, it's not an abstraction for her. It was real.

The M9 was recorded for EMI, the Das Lied for Decca. Both have been re-issued and anthologized and remastered by numerous labels specializing in historical reissues. But both are magisterial performances that should never go out of print.


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## millionrainbows

I started getting Bruckner when I realized I could use his music to evoke timeless states of being. Bruckner is one of the closest examples I've heard of traditional Western classical music that approaches this "new time" experience. Wagner and Mahler's music can do this, too.









New Conceptions of Musical Time *Linear time:* Music that imparts a sense of linear time seems to move towards goals. This quality permeates virtually all of Western music from the Baroque, Classical, and Romantic eras. This is accomplished by processes which occur within tonal and metrical frameworks.
*Nonlinear time:* Music that evokes a sense of nonlinear time seems to stand still or evolve very slowly.

Western musicians first became aware of nonlinear time during the late 19th century. Debussy's encounter with Javanese gamelan music at the 1889 Paris Exhibition was a seminal event.

*Moment Form:* broken down connections between musical events in order to create a series of more or less discrete moments. Certain works of Stravinsky, Webern, Messiaen, and Stockhausen exemplify this approach.

*Vertical Time: *At the other extreme of the nonlinear continuum is music that maximizes consistency and minimizes articulation. Vertical time means that whatever structure that is in the music exists between simultaneous layers of sound, not between successive gestures. A virtually static moment is expanded to encompass an entire piece. A vertical piece does not exhibit large-scale closure. It does not begin, but merely starts. It does not build to a climax, does not set up internal expectations, does not seek to fulfill any expectations that might arise accidentally, does not build or release tension, and does not end, but simply ceases.
*Minimalism* exemplifies vertical time, but instead of absolute stasis, it generates constant motion. The sense of movement is so evenly paced, and the goals are so vague, that we usually lose our sense of perspective


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## Zhdanov

millionrainbows said:


> I started getting Bruckner when I realized I could use his music to evoke timeless states of being.


but its hardly suitable for that purpose. Bruckner is about war & peace, as clearly seen from his music.


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## brucknerian

Zhdanov said:


> but its hardly suitable for that purpose. Bruckner is about war & peace, as clearly seen from his music.


I think it's a bit of both.

There are militaristic undertones to a lot of his work. It could just as well also be about God, about Wagner, about love, as there are also countless references to these throughout his work.

But I still agree with what millionrainbows says about 'timeless states of being'. I still think the way Bruckner conceives and implements the music is on a time-scale altogether transcending the human.


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## Zhdanov

brucknerian said:


> I still agree with what millionrainbows says about 'timeless states of being'


there's one episode must be just that, his 8th symphony 2nd part contains the Eternal Return idea -


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## millionrainbows

Zhdanov said:


> but its hardly suitable for that purpose. Bruckner is about war & peace, as clearly seen from his music.


Maybe "war and peace" is being used as an artistic metaphor, as a comment on states of being, worlds of experience which are constantly being created & destroyed.


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## snowyflow

DeepR said:


> You can get into their music by listening, a lot. ...Focus on one piece at a time. Or even one movement at a time


Agreed. Classical music listening is a conscious act, with time & effort put in over long period of time; if you decided to go into any composer's work, then just start listening, A LOT. I too do lots of listening en route to work, since I commute 1.5 hr by train one way to work every day.

I agree that you focus on one piece at a time (i.e. one symphony), but I don't agree with the approach of one movement at a time; I don't think that will help us truly appreciate the composer's creative intention which is to present a whole symphony with multiple movements. In addition to listening, my personal experience is that reading about the composer and listening to discussions / comments by others (like conductors) also help a lot.

Like I said, it will take time and patience. Their symphonies are in general quite long and complex. For Mahler, I've listened to all of his symphonies, 2nd and 9th live; but thorough listening / studying takes longer time (it's been about two years), so far I'm fairly comfortable with his 1st through 4th, just starting on the 5th. Partly to push myself dig deeper, I'm doing amateur introductory blogs on Mahler's symphonies, have done his 1st and two-thirds of the 2nd (http://www.classicalmusic-notes.com). I plan to do all of them (as did with Beethoven's), don't care how long that'll take. With Bruckner, I started about a year back, so far thoroughly listened to his 4th through 8th.

Bottom line is, I love them all, I do hope you'll enjoy them as well.


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## millionrainbows

Do you really need to be "coddled" into liking symphonic music? This sounds like the princess and her mattress. Come on, "man up", and dive into some new areas. Life doesn't go on forever, you know.


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## Rangstrom

To get started I would focus first on Mahler, then much later Bruckner (for me Gustav and Anton do not play together well). And since you are coming from an opera background I would suggest:

Mahler: Songs of a Wayfarer and Symphony nr. 2.
Bruckner: Te Deum and Symphony nr. 3 (in the third, most concise edition/look for playing time around 50 minutes).


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## Admiral

Mahler 1 on DG with Kubelik , paired with Songs of a Wayfarer

Mahler 5 many great recordings 

Bruckner 9 with Bruno Walter 

And Bruckner 8 Furtwangler BPO 

I’d listen to one at a time and all the way through 
Helps to have great quality recordings but I’ll make an exception for the Furtwangler 8


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## starthrower

Mahler 9 1st movt, and No.10 Adagio is some of the most beautiful symphonic music I've had the pleasure of listening to. And Bruckner 8.


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## Guest

I'm not sure which of Bruckner or Mahler's works would make the best impression on you. At least with Mahler, my experience was to take the symphonies one movement at a time. I stated identifying favorite movements among the Mahler Symphonies long before I reached the point where I wanted to listen to an entire symphony. The fifth symphony is a case in point. The first movement (funeral march) and second movement made an immediate impression. It took time before I could absorb the long fugal finale or the extended central scherzo.


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## Rania

I'm saving this thread, because I need to put more effort into getting to know Bruckner's music better and into challenging my negative impression of him. I studied and played the slow movement of the 7th for a score reading class, and from there I listened to the rest of the symphony and to some of the 9th. But something wouldn't click. There were some truly beautiful moments, moments that, in themselves, would make you cry, but something about the whole put me off. I constantly felt in the music a self-consciousness of trying to write something big, something great, of wanting to move. I am moving, be moved, it seemed to say. It tried too hard, was hyper-aware of reaching higher and bigger and deeper. It said something again and again and again to make sure you are won over, and to me it took away some of the potential power. The harmonies are beautiful, so beautiful, but there was a sensuality of sound that at some moments was repellent- crescendos from pp to fff that were a little too impatient (dare I say a little too "male"?). I missed a certain sobriety, groundedness, sincerity. I do feel this in Mahler sometimes, though to a lesser degree. Mahler, too, often takes too long to say what he needs to say, but my problem with Mahler is more philosophical- I can't help feel that his conception of heaven, as beautiful and moving as it is, has something naive and self-deceptive about it. I can cry when his angels sing, but because this incredible beauty feels like false hope. When Beethoven's angels sing (in his late sonatas for example, or in the chorus of his 9th), it feels like a more honest, more human, more real hope. I don't know if that makes any sense. Sorry for throwing these thoughts here.


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## Merl

OT

1) Play Mahler / Bruckner symphony
2) Listen
3) If you don't like it leave it a few weeks and try again.
4) Repeat process several times over the next few years
5) If you still don't get it then chances are you just dont like it
6) Listen to a few Beethoven cycles. You'll likely prefer them.
7) If all the above don't work try some Black Sabbath.
8) if you don't like that try the Best of Phil Collins
9) If you like that then there's no hope for you.:lol:


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## Admiral

Rania said:


> I'm saving this thread, because I need to put more effort into getting to know Bruckner's music better and into challenging my negative impression of him. I studied and played the slow movement of the 7th for a score reading class, and from there I listened to the rest of the symphony and to some of the 9th. But something wouldn't click. There were some truly beautiful moments, moments that, in themselves, would make you cry, but something about the whole put me off. I constantly felt in the music a self-consciousness of trying to write something big, something great, of wanting to move. I am moving, be moved, it seemed to say. It tried too hard, was hyper-aware of reaching higher and bigger and deeper. It said something again and again and again to make sure you are won over, and to me it took away some of the potential power. The harmonies are beautiful, so beautiful, but there was a sensuality of sound that at some moments was repellent- crescendos from pp to fff that were a little too impatient (dare I say a little too "male"?). I missed a certain sobriety, groundedness, sincerity. I do feel this in Mahler sometimes, though to a lesser degree. Mahler, too, often takes too long to say what he needs to say, but my problem with Mahler is more philosophical- I can't help feel that his conception of heaven, as beautiful and moving as it is, has something naive and self-deceptive about it. I can cry when his angels sing, but because this incredible beauty feels like false hope. When Beethoven's angels sing (in his late sonatas for example, or in the chorus of his 9th), it feels like a more honest, more human, more real hope. I don't know if that makes any sense. Sorry for throwing these thoughts here.


Did you listen to the 8th ? I'd recommend the Furtwangler live recording

Also I wondered what recording made you feel a lack of sincerity - I think of that as a hallmark of Bruckner - but I do understand and appreciate your other comments


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## annaw

I just lately truly got into Mahler. My musical taste really has changed/developed during a short time period. Couple months ago I tried listening to Mahler, but didn't get further than listening to his 1st and 4th symphony. Few weeks ago I listened to his 5th and this week to his 2nd symphony and really loved both of them  .


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## Guest

Telramund said:


> Yes, I read somewhere as well, that Bruckner somehow anticipated Wagner's death. So haunting!


I'm not sure what you are referring to. He revised the 7th symphony slow movement in response to Wagner's death, I believe I have read in various CD booklets.


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## flamencosketches

Baron Scarpia said:


> I'm not sure what you are referring to. He revised the 7th symphony slow movement in response to Wagner's death, I believe I have read in various CD booklets.


Except that Wagner wasn't quite dead yet when he wrote it, if I'm not mistaken. Of course, this is "anticipation" in the sense that everyone saw it coming, so he saw it fit to write an elegy.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Except that Wagner wasn't quite dead yet when he wrote it, if I'm not mistaken. Of course, this is "anticipation" in the sense that everyone saw it coming, so he saw it fit to write an elegy.


The phraseology from Telramund that didn't ring true was that Bruckner "_somehow _anticipated Wagner's death." "Somehow" implies that Bruckner had some sort of premonition. The story, as I gather from various CD booklets, was that it was generally known that Wagner was gravely ill and that Bruckner, aware of this, planned a tribute to Wagner in the slow movement of his symphony in progress. Wagner was alive when Bruckner started work but died before the movement was complete. It is sometimes claimed that the cymbal crash was added by Bruckner to mark Wagner's passing.


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