# Question: Why do some singer's tongues dance as they sing and others do not



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I was watching Christine Goerke as Turandot tonight and her tongue does the Dance of the Seven Veils as she sings. Why does this happen in some singers and not others? Do any of you know?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

And the award for the most unexpected thread title 2020 goes to.... Seattleoperafan!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I guess the tongue dances from the wind tunnel effect. Why do others' tongues not dance? Perhaps they have a fatter tongue that is unaffected by the wind tunnel.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

This has been something that I haven't understood either. It's something I feel I should from my knowledge of technique, but I've never really heard it being mentioned and I don't have a theory for why it happens and what it is about.

N.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

because the former have a knodel due to improper technique and the latter do not.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> because the former have a knodel due to improper technique and the latter do not.


A knot? Would that be tension in the tongue?

N.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

I was told by a former singer and current vocal coach that tongue flapping or the jaw trembling while singing is a sign of bad technique because of undesirable muscular tension.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Ya I think its a technical flaw. The tongue should be relaxed...

So who's going to start the thread about singers who achieved huge success despite flaws in their technique??


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Keeping the muscles needed for tone production independent of surrounding muscles is a desirable technical achievement. Failing to do this results in a variety of problems besides trembling tongues and jaws, including strain, distorted tone quality, unclear and distorted diction, and even tense facial expressions. The muscles of the jaw, mouth and tongue that form vowels and consonants need to be relaxed to operate freely, and should not affect tone production unless the singer chooses to create a specific coloration. Distorted vowels are a good indication that the independence of the muscle groups has not been achieved.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> So who's going to start the thread about singers who achieved huge success despite flaws in their technique??


There are too many possiblities.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Keeping the muscles needed for tone poduction independent of surrounding muscles is a desirable technical achievement. Failing to do this results in a variety of problems besides trembling tongues and jaws, including strain, distorted tone quality, unclear and distorted diction, and even tense facial expressions. The muscles of the jaw, mouth and tongue that form vowels and consonants need to be relaxed to operate freely, and should not affect tone production unless the singer chooses to create a specific coloration. Distorted vowels are a good indication that the independence of the muscle groups has not been achieved.


My sister taught voice and said it is a sign of weakness in the control of the voice. It can produce a change in the sound. It is hard to fix. It is a very individual thing. Ideally the tongue should lie flat like Pavarotti's did.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> My sister taught voice and said it is a sign of weakness in the control of the voice. It can produce a change in the sound. It is hard to fix. It is a very individual thing. Ideally the tongue should lie flat like Pavarotti's did.


I'd amend that to say only that the tongue should be relaxed. It isn't always going to lie flat, and some students are erroneously taught to try to keep it flat and touching the lower teeth (my first voice teacher in college was of that school). The main thing is not to have the tongue muscles contracted by tension, and if they aren't the tongue will lie more or less flat when not in use for pronouncing words.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

The Conte said:


> A knot? Would that be tension in the tongue?
> 
> N.


exactly. produces a slight "potato in the throat" quality.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I'd amend that to say only that the tongue should be relaxed. It isn't always going to lie flat, and some students are erroneously taught to try to keep it flat and touching the lower teeth (my first voice teacher in college was of that school). The main thing is not to have the tongue muscles contracted by tension, and if they aren't the tongue will lie more or less flat when not in use for pronouncing words.


I believe that Thomas Lo Monaco who taught Jerry Hadley among others) argued against the flat tongue against the bottom teeth because it caused voices to lack depth and _squillo_. He argued that the tongue needed to be relaxed but giving more space by pulling it back a bit which causes it to raise in the back of the mouth.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

VitellioScarpia said:


> I believe that Thomas Lo Monaco who taught Jerry Hadley among others) argued against the flat tongue against the bottom teeth because it caused voices to lack depth and _squillo_. *He argued that the tongue needed to be relaxed but giving more space by pulling it back a bit which causes it to raise in the back of the mouth*.


I find this to be effective for my extreme top. A very famous singer/teacher taught me this, but its something that she believes works only for men and doesn't teach it otherwise.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Susan Dunn did it, sitting om row 2 is not helping then.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I am totally unaware of what my tongue is doing when I am singing and telling me to move it here and there doesn't work. I'm incapable of following that sort of instruction. Therefore I just forget it is there and try to keep the whole mouth area and the muscles involved as relaxed as possible. I have sensations and shapes in the back of my mouth and throat when I sing and those no doubt relate to the position of my tongue, but I am aiming to create those shapes at the back rather than putting my tongue in a particular position.

I also concentrate on the purity of the vowel, that is replicating the open Italian vowel sound for that particular syllable in my natural voice (as close to the spoken voice as possible depending on the pitch of the note).

N.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

The Conte said:


> I am totally unaware of what my tongue is doing when I am singing and telling me to move it here and there doesn't work. I'm incapable of following that sort of instruction. Therefore I just forget it is there and try to keep the whole mouth area and the muscles involved as relaxed as possible. I have sensations and shapes in the back of my mouth and throat when I sing and those no doubt relate to the position of my tongue, but I am aiming to create those shapes at the back rather than putting my tongue in a particular position.
> 
> I also concentrate on the purity of the vowel, that is replicating the open Italian vowel sound for that particular syllable in my natural voice (as close to the spoken voice as possible depending on the pitch of the note).
> 
> N.


I think that the point was to not push the tongue against the bottom front teeth as some teachers recommended but to let it be relaxed as when one starts a yawn. The tongue goes back a little - separated from the front teeth - and the position I described comes naturally without forcing it to happen.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

VitellioScarpia said:


> I think that the point was to not push the tongue against the bottom front teeth as some teachers recommended but to let it be relaxed as when one starts a yawn. The tongue goes back a little - separated from the front teeth - and the position I described comes naturally without forcing it to happen.


What an excellent description, yes, I realise now that if I create that space at the back of the mouth, that's exactly what the tongue does. Of course as the words and vowels one sings change the mouth position will change somewhat too. As you say the position comes naturally and the important thing for the singer is to concentrate on the vowels being pure.

N.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

The Conte said:


> What an excellent description, yes, I realise now that if I create that space at the back of the mouth, that's exactly what the tongue does. Of course as the words and vowels one sings change the mouth position will change somewhat too. As you say the position comes naturally and the important thing for the singer is to concentrate on the vowels being pure.
> 
> N.


You're right about the vowels needing to be pure. My biggest struggle was to get through the _passaggio_ balancing the freedom and the value of the vowels. It is like trying to be intelligible when yawning and trying to speak, and without tightening. Hard, very hard. Once over the _passaggio_ it is much easier to keep that freedom and keep the vowels. What's hard at that point is to make the consonants sound... Can't win! :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I see we have a lot of singers here who are currently active. Delightful. Wish I weren't so damned old. I want to be reincarnated and come back as Lauritz Melchior.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I see we have a lot of singers here who are currently active. Delightful. Wish I weren't so damned old. I want to be reincarnated and come back as Lauritz Melchior.


BTW, I am not a professional singer. I did study singing and piano because of my love for music. If I were to be reincarnated, I would love to come back as a musician, either a pianist or a singer, or both!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I see we have a lot of singers here who are currently active. Delightful. Wish I weren't so damned old. I want to be reincarnated and come back as Lauritz Melchior.


Personally I'd rather come back as Set Svanholm if we're going the tenor route, otherwise, Samuel Ramey all the way


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Personally I'd rather come back as Set Svanholm if we're going the tenor route, otherwise, Samuel Ramey all the way


Since we're being specific to singers, I would love to come back with Ettore Bastianini's voice and Gobbi's acumen... That would be a freaking atomic explosion of a baritone.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Since we're being specific to singers, I would love to come back with Ettore Bastianini's voice and Gobbi's acumen... That would be a freaking atomic explosion of a baritone.


oh if we're going baritones, Merrill for sure. Bastiannini was pretty, Merrill was MIGHTY!


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> oh if we're going baritones, Merrill for sure. Bastiannini was pretty, Merrill was MIGHTY!


I assume that you are also adding some additional insight, right? Merrill was, in my book, mostly worried about _stimme_ and less so in terms of character development. _N'est ce pas?_


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