# Singers songwriters vs. art songs?



## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Which do you prefer and why?

BTW, I am trying to get into art songs, but so far, it's tough. I've listened to whole Schubert's Winterreise cycle multiple times... and most of it doesn't do it for me and doesn't stick in my memory.
Maybe it's language issue, maybe I would need to know German to get these songs. What I don't like about them is that there is so much contrast silent-loud. The song goes smoothly, and then he starts to SHOUT all of a sudden. So perhaps, I would need to know the text, to be able to understand the need for such emphasis.

Perhaps I have started from the wrong point? I love his Ave Maria on the other hand. Has he some other similar stuff?

Regarding singers-songwriters, I think it would be hard to argue that some of their music is indeed inferior to art songs. Furthermore, they write lyrics as well, which makes for a more complete artistic expression. But if you focus just on music, I think some of the better songs could still compete with art songs.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

To me it depends. There are phenomenal art songs (for instance, Sibelius's Luonnotar, Peter Warlock's the Curlew, Delius's La lune blanche, Barbara Pentland's Two sung songs, Lili Boulanger's Pie jesu are some of my favorite things ever) and others that I don't like particularly. On winterreise I think that Gute Nacht is great, but I don't have a lot of enthusiasm for many other songs of the cycle. 
Same for popular songs, there are masterpieces and there are terrible songs.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Heh, Gute Nacht is indeed the only that I like and easily remember as well. I got first into this cycle, because it's most well known cycle, by most well known art song composer, obviously. hehe 
Gotta check your suggestions.


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## Annied (Apr 27, 2017)

I really struggle with Lieder. As hard as I've tried in the past, I obviously have the wrong kind of ear, as nearly all of them sound pretty well tuneless to me, however often I play them (which I have to admit is not at all nowadays). I could list half a dozen singer/songwriters whose music I've enjoyed over the years however.


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## jenspen (Apr 25, 2015)

ZJovicic said:


> ...
> 
> Maybe it's language issue, maybe I would need to know German to get these songs.


I endured a couple of amateur Lieder recitals. I don't think the singers understood German at all well or cared much for poetry.

Then, for a break from domesticity, I took two years of German as a mature age external student and got a bit acquainted with Goethe, Heine and co. I was also required to write a brief essay on Schubert so I bought a CD of the young Elly Ameling singing Schubert and Schumann. It was the start of an wonderful obsession.

But, as I'd always been passionate about poetry and vocal music, it was definitely a language issue with me.

Edited to add that the French mélodies and English art songs I had known and loved were eclipsed in originality, sexiness, power and range by the Lieder their native verse inspired the great German composers - Schubert, Schumann and Wolf in particular - to compose.


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## Annied (Apr 27, 2017)

ZJovicic said:


> Maybe it's language issue, maybe I would need to know German to get these songs. What I don't like about them is that there is so much contrast silent-loud. The song goes smoothly, and then he starts to SHOUT all of a sudden. So perhaps, I would need to know the text, to be able to understand the need for such emphasis.


I wouldn't necessarily count on it! For me, it's not what the words mean, it's how the actual sound of them blends with the music. It's why I struggle with singers who over egg the passion and make me wince because they distort the sounds as they try to emphasise the meaning, so they no longer fit with the music as far as I'm concerned.

It seems to me that what appeals and what doesn't depends entirely on the strengths and weaknesses of each individual's "ear", all of which are different. I'd be very curious to hear Lieder through the ears of someone who loves them. I imagine I'd be astounded at how different they sounded. Equally, I'd give a lot to see the face of a lover of Lieder when the process was reversed and they heard them through my ears!


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## les24preludes (May 1, 2018)

By "art songs" I assume you're talking about the classical song repertoire? That's a huge opus spanning centuries, so styles vary wildly. By "singer-songwriters" I assume you're talking about popular music - Beatles, Joni Mitchell, that kind of thing? 

The big difference is that most singer-songwriters use a regular beat, and often a whole band. Sure - plenty of singer-songwriters write songs with just a piano or a guitar backing, and some are very good pianist/guitarists. But again, there's not really much rubato in evidence. Structure can vary a lot - most "show tunes" (standards) were 32 bar AABA or ABAB in construction, while modern songs vary from that, sometimes having only a simple sequence with a lot of production over it. That kind of electronic production done in software is very unusual in the classical repertoire. 

Adding all this up, there's too much difference in the two song forms to compare them directly in most cases. I agree that singer-songwriters by definition write their own lyrics, while most classical composers didn't. And these lyrics are much more rooted in everyday experience rather than poetic love. So a more direct appeal to a contemporary audience. 

I actually have a personal project which is to use the harmonic language of Debussy, Ravel, R.Strauss, Wagner, Mahler, Berg etc over pop beats. Just started taking composition lessons again to work this out. I want floating harmonies which don't keep returning to the tonic, as most pop songs do.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Knowing the text for an art song can be an incredible advantage, often because the songs are based upon famous poems within that culture. They can tell an amazing story. It's so important to understand the aching loneliness in Schubert's Winterreise. There are very good English translations online. The advantage of the art song is that it's so often done for its own sake rather than for commercial reasons. There's something pure about them and elevated as art rather than as a means to an end.

http://www.personal.kent.edu/~sbirch/Common/PDF_Scores/Winterreise%20translations.pdf


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

The definition of "singer-songwriter" is pretty vague, but for the most part it seems to be like adult contemporary folk pop, not like The Beatles, but like Simon & Garfunkel or Bob Dylan (I like some songs by the former, but I don't like the latter. I'm a big fan of The Beatles though). 

"Adult contemporary folk pop" is definitely not something I'm interested in, but I love art songs and lieder. I have plans to compose a song cycle with Frank O'Hara poems as well as some true lieder made with poems from The Gay Science by Nietzsche. In my modern style though, not fully traditional. 

Art songs definitely win all the way for me.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

I have practically no interest in the words being sung. All I care about is the sounds of the vocalizations, for any language of song, but sometimes lyrics can be interesting separately just as poetry. For example, a lot of screamo/emoviolence lyrics are very poetic and philosophical.


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## jiraffejustin (Jul 26, 2018)

I'm new to the world of art songs, but I have been exposed to singer-songwriters for a long time. I can't really vote on this poll yet, but the world of singer-songwriters is filled with a lot of subpar talents. I'm sure there were a lot of subpar talents composing art songs as well, but I guess over the years the cream has really risen to the top there. With singer-songwriters I usually only listen to that style of music once in a blue moon, because it really doesn't connect with me that much. There are a few exceptions, but that style of lyricism isn't really my favorite and the music isn't usually good enough for me to be interested.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

ZJovicic said:


> What I don't like about them is that there is so much contrast silent-loud. The song goes smoothly, and then he starts to SHOUT all of a sudden.


Try listening to someone besides Fischer Dieskau maybe :lol:

Kidding, but I would try some other singers and pieces. Maybe try Hotter's Winterreise instead (I'm just guessing he's not the shouter you're describing), or try Dichterliebe by Wunderlich or Chants d'Auvergne by Davrath or Janet Baker's Mahler song cycles or Farrell or Ludwig's Wesendonck lieder.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

les24preludes said:


> I actually have a personal project which is to use the harmonic language of Debussy, Ravel, R.Strauss, Wagner, Mahler, Berg etc over pop beats. Just started taking composition lessons again to work this out. I want floating harmonies which don't keep returning to the tonic, as most pop songs do.


that's a good project.
It must be said that there are popular songwriters who were influenced by modernism. For instance in Brazil the influence of the impressionist composers like Ravel or Debussy is great (on songwriters like Valzinho, Garoto, Jobim, Guinga and others).


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## jenspen (Apr 25, 2015)

jiraffejustin said:


> I'm new to the world of art songs, but I have been exposed to singer-songwriters for a long time. I can't really vote on this poll yet, but the world of singer-songwriters is filled with a lot of subpar talents. I'm sure there were a lot of subpar talents composing art songs as well, but I guess over the years the cream has really risen to the top there..


I'd guess you were right too.

Footnote: Something that just occurred to me (though I haven't gone into this) is that many "classical" composers had extensive experience as choristers - J. S. Bach, Haydn and Schubert come to mind. Some were at least capable of performing their own songs - Schubert sang "Winterreise" and Wolf used to give recitals.


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## Jermaine (Apr 23, 2016)

What is an "art-song"?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

jenspen said:


> I'd guess you were right too.
> 
> Footnote: Something that just occurred to me (though I haven't gone into this) is that many "classical" composers had extensive experience as choristers - J. S. Bach, Haydn and Schubert come to mind. Some were at least capable of performing their own songs - Schubert sang "Winterreise" and Wolf used to give recitals.


Which makes them singer-songwriters.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Jermaine said:


> What is an "art-song"?


There may be a better technical definition, but basically it's a song with music by a classical composer. Generally the text is an existing poem. While there are plenty of exceptions, they are often for voice and piano.

Another word for them is lieder (German for songs).


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

jegreenwood said:


> There may be a better technical definition, but basically it's a song with music by a classical composer. Generally the text is an existing poem. While there are plenty of exceptions, they are often for voice and piano.
> 
> Another word for them is lieder (German for songs).


Another pragmatic, if unsatisfactory, distinction I've heard is that with singer songwriters it matters who the singer is, whereas with art songs anyone (who happens to be extremely talented) will do.


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