# loggionisti. Critics or hooligans?



## Metairie Road (Apr 30, 2014)

loggionisti. Critics or hooligans?

Guardian article -
http://www.theguardian.com/music/20...-alagna-werther-loggionisti-alexander-pereira

Here in America we tend to accept any live opera performance or recital with grateful appreciation no matter how awful it may be. I guess those of us not living near any of the larger metropolitan areas with established operas take what we can get and are more forgiving of disappointing performances. Heckling, catcalling and the throwing of rotten vegetables is unthinkable. Maybe were not civilized enough.

Would you feel justified in engaging in this kind of behavior if a performance did not live up to your standards or expectations?

Booing at La Scala





Booing at the Met.





Regards
Metairie Road


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

LOL. those two can't go anywhere, darlin -- they're attached to sticks 

I've been to opera performances in the states, "big-city opera houses," where people booed, hissed and cat-call whistled -- of course if people pitched vegetables, this is America, and they could get hauled away by the police and charged with assault (even tossing a glass of water in someone's face is legal assault, and zn assault is 'battery realized!')

I found that kind of reaction a kind of hoot, and in opera, with its built-in stops and starts to leave room for applause after solo arias and duets, etc, it is really less disturbing than you might think, but it is still not my kind of fun. There are, just as there are for a routine symphony concert-goer, several options; to not applaud (I've partaken); and / or walk out (I've also done that only a few times, because depending upon where your seat is, 'making that statement' is also rudely bothering all those you have to disturb to get to the aisle!)

On the other hand, if you've paid upwards of 100 clams for a seat, and you know the principal singers are making 10K or more an evening, maybe we, as audience, do have some right to protest a very inferior performance, a phoned-in job, etc.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The most devastating acts of disapproval and which hurt much more than all the classless booing and hissing is sitting on your hands -- complete and utter silence. They'll get the message -- and how!


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> The most devastating acts of disapproval and which hurt much more than all the classless booing and hissing is sitting on your hands -- complete and utter silence. They'll get the message -- and how!


I'm not sure that Dragana's going to get that message.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

A bit sad Alagna (a good Werther) cares what loggionisti have to say. If you paid a shitload, yes, I get the over-annoyance at subpar performances, but if you're sitting in the gods you know you've paid a pittance. I think they do it for fun, no matter what.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

The comments are interesting. I'd heard about the 'claque' but not heard that story about Birgit Nilsson. It doesn't happen now, does it?


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

We see the claque alive and well in Trip Advisor reviews. Essentially just self-appointed critics and arbiters of taste. Makes them feel very important I'm sure.

One thing for certain, booing during a performance won't help. I've seen some pretty bad singing in my time. Have never booed but certainly sat on my hands, or left early when the whole thing is lousy. 

Booing productions and their designers, well that's a different matter. Who will ever forget Royal Opera's Les Huguenots?

And then there was Mitridate with its cast of birds of prey on perches behind a soprano making her house debut. One of the birds literally fell of the perch and was dangling upside-down by a chain around its foot, wings flapping helplessly. The poor soprano continued with her opening aria as the hostile audience demanded that the bird received assistance. Hope the singer and the bird weren't too traumatised by it all.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ which Mitridate was this? birds first, music later, eh heh.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

I wonder what is more devastating for a singer, to get bood at the performance or to get killed in a review. Reviews in newspapers or whereever are here to stay... booing is a thing of the moment. It is however rude, still all singers know that this is part of the deal in certain opera houses. It must feel like someone is stabbing you from behind if you are on stage and you hear a boo. 

In Rome, I shared a box with 6, among them 2 very passionate italian men, who almost broke out into a fight when they couldn't agree on who would get the back row seats, and during and after the perfomance they were shouting bravo's when they liked it, and sort of grunted when they didn't like it. During curtain calls the boos were loud, and sometimes they would not agree, which was a funny sight. So you could say it may also be a part of the temperament of the Italians. 

Recently saw a docu on Mirella Freni. At the premiere of her first Violetta she was booed heavily. She kept smiling and took a bow. This is how you should do it. Her comment was that she thought she did fine and she was satisfied with her performance. Later it turned out the failing of the premiere was staged by a number of audience members.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Dongiovanni said:


> During curtain calls the boos were loud


were they deserved?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I booed Act III of Siegfried at Bayreuth. 

What was previously considered a love duet featured Siegfried and Brunnhilde eating sloppy spaghetti at a U-Bahn station in East Berlin. This was accompanied by crocodiles which roamed around the stage after copulating. Towards the end, one crocodile attempted to eat the woodbird, but was rescued by Siegfried who proceeded to make out with her right in front of Brunnhilde who he had just finished declaring undying love for. 

The only explanation of such inane stupidity is its actual purpose was to **** off the audience. Therefore to applaud the performance would have been to boo it, and to boo it was to applaud it.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Interesting to read this in conjunction with Iain Paterson's blog on The Fear.

I think it takes great courage to stand up there in the first place and it must be a million times worse if you think you're going to be booed.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

deggial said:


> were they deserved?


The booes were mainly for the leading tenor and the director. The tenor was not good enough, but not that bad. The new production was one to be forgotten.

I will never boo. If I would, I would still not boo on this occasion. There are other occasions where I would have.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I've heard of the _loggonisti_ at La Scala and always assumed they were grumpy old men who couldn't accept the fact that Callas/Tebaldi/Gencer/whomever were no longer performing.

I did read one sad story about booing, which actually took place at the Met. In her memoirs (_More than a Diva_), Renata Scotto tells of how during the first scene of the 1979 performance of Verdi's _Luisa Miller_ that was telecast _live_, an audience member tried to unnerve her by shouting out "Brava, Callas!" (intended as an insult to Scotto) right before she began to sing her solo. I have that performance on DVD, and while the "Brava, Callas!" has been -- thank God -- edited out of the DVD, you can see Scotto look momentarily startled and even a bit sick, and you can see Sherrill Milnes as Miller grip her hands and look at her very intently as though he's trying to help her regain her composure -- a touching moment, but a highly uncomfortable one, too, if you know the story behind what just took place. Personally, I would never boo. It just seems extremely rude to shout at performers, especially while the performance is actually in progress.

I know I also read that Scotto was booed as Norma at the Met a couple of years later, but I've forgotten the details of that story. I guess there was a period when Met audiences "had it in" for her.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

The amazing thing is that it happens to the best singers in the world, not some lousy bum who has no reason to ever be on a stage!

It reminds me of how much I admire opera singers and their dedication to their art and our pleasure. They often have to master multiple languages and memorize countless roles. Also, constant attention to vocal health and technique. Not many shortcuts to stardom and riches open to them.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

So far, I've never had occasion to boo anyone, but I cut singers far more slack than I do stage directors. In the case of the singers, anyone can have a bad night and you can be sure the singer already knows he or she isn't performing up to par. Booing would be like rubbing salt in a wound, and I won't do it. With directors, what happens onstage is usually intentional (aside from some poor raptor falling off a perch), so I'm much less inclined to be forgiving. Luckily, I've never attended a production by some off-the-rails Regietheater practitioner. But should it ever happen, I'll withhold applause and later write a strongly-worded letter to the opera house's management.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Where do they get those vegetables?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Couchie said:


> I booed Act III of Siegfried at Bayreuth.
> 
> *What was previously considered a love duet featured Siegfried and Brunnhilde eating sloppy spaghetti at a U-Bahn station in East Berlin. This was accompanied by crocodiles which roamed around the stage after copulating. Towards the end, one crocodile attempted to eat the woodbird, but was rescued by Siegfried who proceeded to make out with her right in front of Brunnhilde who he had just finished declaring undying love for. *
> The only explanation of such inane stupidity is its actual purpose was to **** off the audience. Therefore to applaud the performance would have been to boo it, and to boo it was to applaud it.


Couchie,
Are you serious?


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Itullian said:


> Couchie,
> Are you serious?


Funny you should say that. When I read it, I just assumed that was what happened because we're almost inured to being shocked.

It could be a completely made-up totally absurd scenario that Couchie rattled off, but we'd assume it to be true because in the world of opera directors anything goes, all apparently in the name of art.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

isn't there *really* a production of _something_ by Wagner (sorry for ign'ance!) where a "crocodile" does indeed try to eat one of the chorus? I read about it here and thought there should be more of that stuff in opera, it seemed hilarious! Imagine a gator Tosca


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> I booed Act III of Siegfried at Bayreuth.
> 
> What was previously considered a love duet featured Siegfried and Brunnhilde eating sloppy spaghetti at a U-Bahn station in East Berlin. This was accompanied by crocodiles which roamed around the stage after copulating. Towards the end, one crocodile attempted to eat the woodbird, but was rescued by Siegfried who proceeded to make out with her right in front of Brunnhilde who he had just finished declaring undying love for.
> 
> The only explanation of such inane stupidity is its actual purpose was to **** off the audience. Therefore to applaud the performance would have been to boo it, and to boo it was to applaud it.


There are things to which booing is too polite a response. In the above case I'd recommend rounding up the guilty and feeding them to their own crocodiles. Of course we know this is a made-up example, since at this point in the opera the wood bird has already been shot by Siegfried, roasted in the magic fire, and wheeled onto Brunnhilde's rock with two place settings and a bottle of Liebfraumilch.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I wish I was making that up, but I'm not. That's precisely what happened. The audience was mostly receptive up to that point of the production but the almost violent booing at the end of Siegfried was unlike anything I've even seen on video before. Still meaning to write more on Bayreuth trip, might get around to it this weekend.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Couchie said:


> I wish I was making that up, but I'm not. That's precisely what happened. The audience was mostly receptive up to that point of the production but the almost violent booing at the end of Siegfried was unlike anything I've even seen on video before. Still meaning to write more on Bayreuth trip, might get around to it this weekend.


Thanks, Am looking forward to reading about it.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> isn't there *really* a production of _something_ by Wagner (sorry for ign'ance!) where a "crocodile" does indeed try to eat one of the chorus? I read about it here and thought there should be more of that stuff in opera, it seemed hilarious! Imagine a gator Tosca


Well there already has been a croc Kundry, so why not?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Well there already has been a croc Kundry, so why not?


She sang through that?


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Was she even able to see where she was going through those parted jaws? I wish I could make the stage director and costume designer responsible for this idiocy spend a couple of hours wearing that thing.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Well there already has been a croc Kundry, so why not?


Where have I seen this pose before?
_Kundry. I am your father._


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> I wish I was making that up, but I'm not. That's precisely what happened. The audience was mostly receptive up to that point of the production but the almost violent booing at the end of Siegfried was unlike anything I've even seen on video before. Still meaning to write more on Bayreuth trip, might get around to it this weekend.


This is scandalous! This is disgraceful! This is unspeakable! This is...

Delicious! Tell us more!


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Couchie said:


> I wish I was making that up, but I'm not. That's precisely what happened. The audience was mostly receptive up to that point of the production but the almost violent booing at the end of Siegfried was unlike anything I've even seen on video before. Still meaning to write more on Bayreuth trip, might get around to it this weekend.


Be grateful...


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Oh yes, the off-key Carmen and the flailing naked dude. :lol:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Unbelievable.

And they clapped!!!??? first video

let me outta here. :lol:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Couac Addict said:


> Be grateful...


"............................................"

_speechless_


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> I booed Act III of Siegfried at Bayreuth.
> 
> What was previously considered a love duet featured Siegfried and Brunnhilde eating sloppy spaghetti at a U-Bahn station in East Berlin. This was accompanied by crocodiles which roamed around the stage after copulating. Towards the end, one crocodile attempted to eat the woodbird, but was rescued by Siegfried who proceeded to make out with her right in front of Brunnhilde who he had just finished declaring undying love for.
> 
> The only explanation of such inane stupidity is its actual purpose was to **** off the audience. Therefore to applaud the performance would have been to boo it, and to boo it was to applaud it.


I would have asked for my money back on the grounds that I had come to see Wagner's Siegfried not some idiot producer's revision of the action.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couac Addict said:


> Be grateful...


And they wonder why people aren't coming to opera? Answer: people are intelligent and do not like their intelligence insulted


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I think these directors hate opera.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Say, do you suppose they could get those bees together with some of the lab rats from Hans Neuenfels' production of _Lohengrin_?


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## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

Couac Addict said:


> Be grateful...


Heeey... They got that all wrong! Those dudes are Babylonians, not WASPs!


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

My English speaking friends and I simply refer to these productions as _Swedish Carmen_ and _Nabeecco_


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Is the Nabucco a commentary on the waspish audience at a typical opera?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ and on their dancing skills!


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Heard Riccardo Chailly (sp?) on Radio 4 earlier, Front Row I think it was. The presenter asked him what he thought of the loggionisti and he said that people who dislike a performance generally have good reason, but they ought to express themselves politely. I thought that was a bit of a cop out because he didn't tell us whether heckling in the theatre is acceptable or not: did he mean it's possible to heckle politely, perhaps prefacing each observation with 'Excuse me good sir, but I think you'll find that...' before launching into the main part of the heckle? Or is he advocating a more passive aggressive Anglo Saxon style of dissent, perhaps consisting of archly written 'disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' type letters to the broadsheets? Nobody seems to know what the etiquette is any more.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Well, they paid 10-20 euros for the seat so the opera world owes them something.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

DavidA said:


> And they wonder why people aren't coming to opera? Answer: people are intelligent and do not like their intelligence insulted


Backateatern is not an opera house and that production was not by opera singers but with actors.

There is a real opera house in Göteborg that is fine except for the fact that they love to dress the singers in clothes from later eras than when the operas are set.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> Be grateful...


I'm not sure the second video counts, as it's obviously some sort of performance art (I use the word art in its broadest sense), and not an actual staging of Carmen.

As for the first one, words fail me. I mean why? Just why?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm not sure the second video counts, as it's obviously some sort of performance art (I use the word art in its broadest sense), and not an actual staging of Carmen.
> 
> As for the first one, words fail me. I mean why? Just why?


You can read about it hear:

https://translate.google.se/transla...er-lustfylld-teaterlek_4474471.svd&edit-text=

It is a regietheater staging of Carmen without trained singers.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Sloe said:


> It is a regietheater staging of Carmen without trained singers.


Are you sure? haha.

I'm still counting it though, because I have no idea what type of performance Swedish Carmen belongs in. Who knows? This could be Alagna & Gheorghiu someday. Back together at last.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm not sure the second video counts, as it's obviously some sort of performance art (I use the word art in its broadest sense), and not an actual staging of Carmen.
> 
> As for the first one, words fail me. I mean why? Just why?


There are questions it is better not to ask. The older I get, and the more I see of the great wide world, the more I realize that "Why?" is often one of these questions. And this, I believe, is the key to a good night's


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

If there was an apiologist in the audience, that production was probably the single greatest moment of his life.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

If a performer can't handle a negative response, they shouldn't be on the stage. There's a certain entitlement and pomposity to the idea that because you're performing at La Scala or whatever prestigious opera house your performance has to be well liked; take your knocks like everyone else, you're still getting paid some heinous amount for warbling at people for two hours.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Couac Addict said:


> Are you sure? haha.
> 
> I'm still counting it though, because I have no idea what type of performance Swedish Carmen belongs in. Who knows? This could be Alagna & Gheorghiu someday. Back together at last.


It is a political statement against the terrorist laws of the European Union.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Alexander said:


> One thing for certain, booing during a performance won't help. I've seen some pretty bad singing in my time. Have never booed but certainly sat on my hands, or left early when the whole thing is lousy.
> 
> Booing productions and their designers, well that's a different matter. Who will ever forget Royal Opera's Les Huguenots?
> 
> .


Agree completely about my right to loudly boo disgusting productions and their directors loud and clear. Maybe the house will get the message and never hire them again.

Dongiovanni: Trust me, if they got "killed in the reviews" they already got booed in the house!


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Couchie said:


> I booed Act III of Siegfried at Bayreuth.
> 
> What was previously considered a love duet featured Siegfried and Brunnhilde eating sloppy spaghetti at a U-Bahn station in East Berlin. This was accompanied by crocodiles which roamed around the stage after copulating. Towards the end, one crocodile attempted to eat the woodbird, but was rescued by Siegfried who proceeded to make out with her right in front of Brunnhilde who he had just finished declaring undying love for.
> 
> The only explanation of such inane stupidity is its actual purpose was to **** off the audience. Therefore to applaud the performance would have been to boo it, and to boo it was to applaud it.


ROFL! Brilliant! I wish I had been there. I would have howled with laughter.

Scotto did get some flak from the Callas camp.She took over from Callas in Bellini's "La Sonnambula" when Callas was"Ill" and was a great success, launching her career.

But back to the thread...I think its bad form to heckle the "turn" Just dont clap if yu dont like it.

Ive never been at an Opera where the audience Boo'd though, except at Ingvar Wixel's Scarpia at a curtain call, which was a hoot, he pretended to be shocked then pulled a Scarpia pose which everyone cheered at. Great stuff


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