# I don't get Bach. Recommend some?



## bestcoaster (Sep 29, 2011)

I've been listening to classical music off and on for over a decade now, though I've never been a particularly serious fan. I've gone through a bunch of change in preferences, but one constant has been that I've never gotten Bach. With the exception of the Brandenburg Concertos, everything I've listened to has left me dead. (Some examples of "great" works I've tried and failed to like: WTC, Goldberg Variations, St. Matthew's Passion, Mass in B Minor, Art of Fugue).

I don't expect to ever be a great fan of the Baroque era, but given the high regard everyone else has for Bach I feel like I must be missing something. Can you all recommend some stuff that might help me appreciate Bach better?

A somewhat randomly-chosen list of personal favorite works to help give a sense of what I like:

* Mozart--Marriage of Figaro, Magic Flute (both the operas and the overtures as separate instrumental works), piano rondos
* Haydn--Symphony No. 104
* Beethoven--violin concerto and Symphony No. 9
* Mendelssohn--violin concerto and octet for strings
* Dvořák--Symphony No. 9
* Rachmaninov--2nd and 3rd Piano Concertos, Symphonic Dances


----------



## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

Hello bescoaster. I'm HerlockSholmes. I'm also known as the person who is definitely not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm most definitely not obssessed with his fugues in particular.

Anyway, since you've *thoroughly* (I presume) listened to the WTC, Goldberg Variations, St. Matthew Passion, B minor Mass, and Art of Fugue, and say that you dislike them, then you're either lying, or you're a robot, or you're a lying robot. (I'm joking).

In all seriousness, here's some "simpler" things you _might_ enjoy:
















For starters, what did you think of these?


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Welcome to this forum. Glad to have you here.

First of all, I think it's okay not to like any composer, even the geniuses. Or not to love them to the max as you might some others. Second, I think you shouldn't force yourself to listen to a composer whose style doesn't suit you. The more you make yourself do this, the more you may grow to hate rather than like what you're hearing, it may have the opposite effect. My disclaimer that I am not heavily into Bach myself, but I do like other Baroque era composers. My area of greatest interest is after 1800, but I'm slowly getting to know many things from before that time.



bestcoaster said:


> I've been listening to classical music off and on for over a decade now, though I've never been a particularly serious fan. I've gone through a bunch of change in preferences, but one constant has been that I've never gotten Bach. With the exception of the Brandenburg Concertos, everything I've listened to has left me dead. (Some examples of "great" works I've tried and failed to like: WTC, Goldberg Variations, St. Matthew's Passion, Mass in B Minor, Art of Fugue).


I only know the first two to any degree but on the whole my impression of these works (from hearing excerpts, etc.) is that they are more technical than emotional. If you're like me, kind of more in the middle but maybe leaning towards emotional content, then I can suggest some things that worked for me (see below). These are also top heavy and large scale works so I'm would generally suggest you listen to smaller/shorter works.



> A somewhat randomly-chosen list of personal favorite works to help give a sense of what I like:
> 
> * Mozart--Marriage of Figaro, Magic Flute (both the operas and the overtures as separate instrumental works), piano rondos
> * Haydn--Symphony No. 104
> ...


Bach's _Double Violin Concerto _made me cry when hearing it live, and that never happened to that degree before. Another guy in front of me in the audience was similarly getting the three hanky affect. This is a very emotional work, esp. the middle slow movt.

The orchestral suites can also be very emotional, eg. the famous _Air on the G String _from the 3rd suite.

Since you like symphonies, why not try some of Bach's great organ works. They are very spectacular and full on, they call the organ the king of instruments for good reason. Although his organ works isn't my favourite, basically it's essential knowledge for any composer in any area of any time (esp. in terms of counterpoint, fugues, canons, etc.). They are very colourful, complex and grand, not far from a romantic symphony. Give them a go. (edit - many of Bach's organ works have been orchestrated, that might be a way to like Bach's music, often with some composers I end up liking the transcriptions more than the originals themselves).

Since you like piano concertos, Bach's keyboard concertos are the go, but I don't know them well (others around here will no doubt). But I do know some of his Duets for keyboard which are not too long and very bouncy and fun. Quite flamboyant in a way for this composer that I myself thought was kind of dry and dull. Not so if you listen to these works.

Other things I like are his solo cello suites and partitas and sonatas for solo violin. I'm not sure how they fit into your list in terms of relevancy but you might wish to try them out at some stage. Since you like opera try his other choral/vocal things like the cantatas but I don't like his choral, others will be able to better advise.

Good luck and happy listening, hunting, exploring!...


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

You could try getting into Bach's "lighter" chamber works, like this:


----------



## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

bestcoaster said:


> Can you all recommend some stuff that might help me appreciate Bach better?
> 
> A somewhat randomly-chosen list of personal favorite works to help give a sense of what I like:
> 
> ...


Based on your list of works you enjoy, (which tend to be more melodic and homophonic in nature) I would highly suggest Hilary Hahn's CD of Bach's Violin Concertos. Her tempos are swift, her playing is marvelous, the sound quality is wonderful, and the music itself is fairly short, melodic, and highly accessible. Plus these three concertos are staples of the violin repertoire and are justly famous. Here's a link to the CD:

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Concerto...9156/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1317350624&sr=8-2


----------



## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

His 3 Partitas and 3 Sonatas for solo violin are out of this world. They elicit emotions in me I never even knew I had.

Here's his famous Chaconne (from the 2nd Partita):





-----

I really love his Violin Concertos as well, particularly his Double Violin Concerto.

Listen to this beautiful counterpoint, the dialogue between the two violins:





-----

His unaccompanied Cello Suites also have a wonderful effect on me.

Love that cello tone!





-----

His Keyboard Concertos are really great too!







Sid James said:


> many of Bach's organ works have been orchestrated, that might be a way to like Bach's music, often with some composers I end up liking the transcriptions more than the originals themselves).


I find this to be true. Someone recently linked to a transcription of the Goldberg Variations for strings, and I enjoyed _substantially _more than on solo keyboard (still need to buy that cd!). I also quite prefer Art of Fugue for string orchestra much more than on solo keyboard (which is the most recorded method, even though it was never officially designated for keyboard only, I think).

Here's the link for the Goldberg for strings:





Here's Contrapunctus XIV from Art of Fugue for string orchestra:


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^ That's more apt, I think *Olias, Lyranor* than *lukecash* suggesting the _Mass in B Minor _above. Is he kidding? It's one of the heaviest pieces of J.S.Bach, even judging by listening to bits of it. I know people who have sung this work and they agree, it is long and it is complicated to the max, for both listeners and performers. As I said before, the violin concertos are the go, they are very emotional and direct, no mucking around with convoluted technique, and you can have them all on the one disc. Very convenient and doesn't take like 2 hours + to listen to the whole thing...


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Crap..........


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^ I probably put it too strongly. I'm not against Bach's _Mass in B minor_. I have a friend who saw it live in Japan under that Suzuki guy I think, she didn't have much experience with this music, and she was very moved. I am not one size fits all, I'm just trying to be helpful and am speaking from my (admittedly limited) personal experience...


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Sid James said:


> ^^ I probably put it too strongly. I'm not against Bach's _Mass in B minor_. I have a friend who saw it live in Japan under that Suzuki guy I think, she didn't have much experience with this music, and she was very moved. I am not one size fits all, I'm just trying to be helpful and am speaking from my (admittedly limited) personal experience...


Don't worry about it. I merely made the reference because Agnus Dei certainly isn't as hard to digest as the Kyrie from the Mass in B.

Why is it that you feel Bach's more "technical" works are "less emotional"? What does "technical" and "emotional" mean to you?


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^I can understand that different parts of that work are different as Bach worked on them over a long period. So I am wrong in saying it's all difficult, probably the parts I've come across were (or maybe were) difficult. But I'm closer to Bach now than I ever was, with that moving experience I had crying at that concert with the violin concerto. I am trying to be more positive now, before I said he was dry and boring (which I don't believe anymore)...


----------



## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

I agree with previous posters about trying the violin concertos. Also try the Solo Violin Sonatas and Partitas - Hilary Hahn's is a good modern set.

By the way, of the works you've already listened to, who was playing? It might just be that you need to listen to a more Romantic-style interpretation.


----------



## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

I suggest the *French suites*, the* English suites*, and the *Partitas*. These are all keyboard music and each is a suite of dances, so they are big on tunes, rhythm, usually good humour - and they're without the heaviness which characterises all the pieces you've heard and didn't like (except the _Goldberg _variations - I think you should listen again to those!).

There are zillions of recordings. At the risk of annoying some, I recommend starting with Glenn Gould. Yes, he's idiosyncratic at times, but his playing is marvellously clear, the intepretations always convinced me, and the piano is a lot more expressive than a harpsichord.


----------



## bestcoaster (Sep 29, 2011)

Thanks for the recs, everyone. I've been trolling this forum at work and they block any sort of streaming video--can you let me know what the videos that you posted are?


----------



## Guest (Sep 30, 2011)

Bach is such a wealth of wonderful music, it is hard to decide where to start with recommendations. I will reiterate the recommendations for the Violin Concertos. While I enjoy the HIP performance of Andrew Manze on Harmonia Mundi, Hillary Hahn and Julia Fischer both have wonderful recordings as well on modern instruments.

I would also recommend the solo keyboard works recorded by Murray Perahia. I understand you have not had luck with WTC or Goldberg (one of my personal favorites from Bach's works), but you might like some of his other solo keyboard works.

I love the cantatas, but if you haven't had a moving experience with his Mass in B Minor, I won't recommend those, or the Passions, although if you ever find yourself more in love with Bach, I would recommend revisiting all of these.

Perhaps the Orchestral Suites? The Air from the 3rd Suite is particularly famous. The Suites are often paired with the Brandenburg Concertos, and if you like the Brandenburgs, you might like these as well.

With the Art of Fugue, might I ask on what instrument(s) it was performed, when you heard it? It is one of those works that has been performed with a variety of instruments - solo organ, violas, even saxophones. I have a recording of this work performed by the New Century Saxophone Quartet that I enjoy more than most others. Perhaps listening from a fresh perspective might alter your perception of this work - although, admittedly, it is a more academic work than many others, and may not be the way to start.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Webernite said:


> [...]
> By the way, of the works you've already listened to, who was playing? It might just be that you need to listen to a more Romantic-style interpretation.


Continuing in the 'interpretation' approach:

Heinrich Schiff recorded the Cello suites, to a significant degree interpreting the 'movements' as the dances they are derived from. Mela Tenenbaum recorded the Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin with a lilt and rasp which sounds gypsy-like to many hearers, including me. Both sets should be findable used. They are treasured members of my collection, so you can't have mine.


----------



## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

let's face it, if you don't like the BWV 565 fugue, you will most likely never enjoy Bach.


----------



## hawk (Oct 1, 2007)

Would someone tell me what WTC is please....Never mind. Found the answer myself...

@regressivetransphobe-your post is in mUPPET cASE


----------



## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

hawk said:


> would someone tell me what wtc is please....


nEVER FORGET...


----------



## Xytech (Apr 7, 2011)

The piece that got me into Bach was his double violin concerto with the two Oistrakhs. That's all it took!!!!!


----------



## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

In my case, it was ironically the Brandenburg concertos.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Ralfy said:


> In my case, it was ironically the Brandenburg concertos.


Funny that I quite like his violin concertos but don't like the Brandenburgs that much...


----------



## Guest (Oct 3, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Funny that I quite like his violin concertos but don't like the Brandenburgs that much...


I OD'd on the Brandenburg concertos at one point, accumulating multiple recordings, to the point that I couldn't listen to them again for a while. Now I have come back around to them. I currently love Jordi Savall's recording. For me, it has to be an HIP recording - when it gets too heavy, it turns me off. And I think that is one thing that is key for me when listening to Bach, or any baroque-era work - modern performance styles just come off too heavy for me. I don't like my Bach to sound like Mahler (I know, I exaggerate), and really one of the only exceptions is with the solo keyboard works, where I really don't mind the softer sound of the piano.


----------



## hawk (Oct 1, 2007)

For me watching the Freibug Baroque Orchestra perform the Brandenburgs really inspired my interest to learn more or at least to listen/and watch more Bach. The video dispelled my notion that all "classical" music ( I know it is not really classical) was performed while seated. I really appreciated how the orchestra's movement/dancing added to the music.

I haven't seen many discussions about Bachs' Orchestral Suites. I enjoy these maybe more than the Brandenburg's~at least on somedays....


----------



## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I think you should like these very much especially the 1,5 and 7









Also going by what you said you like, this is one of my favorite solo works of his...do listen to the keyboard works of Bach by all others...get to know them well...then, listen to them played by this man.


----------



## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

Wow, as if to pester me, that's the toccata I've been struggeling to dechiper all day. (one's you try to go pro, the fun's gone ) ((well, somewhat, not to dramatise))

Perhaps somebody (like me), should point out that there's a difference between "getting" the music and "enjoying". They are in fact quite separate. Getting the music, in other words understanding the writing makes it easier to enjoy the music, and perhaps on more levels then somebody who might just enjoy it without getting to know the music.

In reference to Bach keyboard works I mean the following: knowing about how a fugue is written, knowing the voices, knowing the theme and how it and it's derivatives are used in the developement, getting a feel for how the themes fit in with the metrum of the thing, perhaps taking a peek at the proportions of the piece (golden intersection somewhere perhaps?), getting an idea how the voices may create some dissonance and how it's resolved in a way that doesn't breach the thematic material etc.

In my experience, having engaged in a through analysis of a work resulted in me enjoying the work where I didn't particularly do so before.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Rasa said:


> perhaps taking a peek at the proportions of the piece (*golden intersection somewhere perhaps?*), getting an idea how the voices may create some dissonance and how it's resolved in a way that doesn't breach the thematic material etc.
> 
> In my experience, having engaged in a through analysis of a work resulted in me enjoying the work where I didn't particularly do so before.


Interesting post, could you explain further the idea of the 'golden intersection' of a piece?


----------



## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

tdc said:


> Interesting post, could you explain further the idea of the 'golden intersection' of a piece?


The golden section, or golden ratio, is the ratio betwen two numbers _a_ and _b_ such that _a_ : _b_ = (_a - b_) : _b_

Put another way. Think of a rectangle with sides _a_ (horizontal) and _b_ (vertical). Now draw a line vertically inside it the distance _b_ from the left hand edge. You now have a square, of side _b_, and another rectangle which is _b_ long (vertically) by _a - b_. If the big rectangle is in the golden ratio, then the small rectangle will be too. Of course, it's smaller, but the ratio of the sides is the same.

The golden section is approximately 1.618 : 1

The golden ratio pops up all over the place in nature, and by imitation and extension in the visual and other arts - eg a piece of music may have two parts whose durations are in that ratio. This is because the composer believes this proportion will in some way benefit the music.

One arithmetically interesting thing. The Fibonacci sequence is an infinite set of positive whole numbers, each of which is the sum of the previous two numbers in the sequence. Conventionally, it starts with 1 and 1, so it goes

1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 etc

Take the ratio of each number to its predecessor

1 2 1.5 1.666... 1.6 1.625 1.615... 1.619... 1.6176...

Take each of these numbers alternately and create two sequences

1 1.5 1.6 1.615.... 1.6176... etc

2 1.666... 1.625 1.619... etc

The first sequence gets closer and closer to to the golden ratio from below, the second tends to the golden ratio from above.

The fact that the golden ratio is intimately linked to the Fibonacci series allows numerologically inclined composers to have a field day.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Rasa said:


> ...
> In my experience, having engaged in a through analysis of a work resulted in me enjoying the work where I didn't particularly do so before.


That's similar to what some people say of newer music like by Pierre Boulez. Maybe that's why J.S. Bach sometimes goes above people's heads and sounds too technical and counterpoint laden, whatever. Basically, if you're a layman and you need to analyse a score to "get" music or whatever, it like becomes music for the musicians, not the ordinary listeners.

I'm not saying J.S. Bach is just as hard to access as Boulez or some other living composer. What I'm saying is that often those into both these guy's music heavily and deeply are musicians. Obvious conclusion for me is that guys like Handel or Vivaldi give me more without the technical and cerebral kind of things. I'd say they are the more accessible composers of the Baroque, not J.S. Bach (if you're a layman, not a musician). Or maybe I'm talking balderdash and generalising? I don't know, this is just my thinking as of this minute based on some of the posts above...


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Sid James said:


> That's similar to what some people say of newer music like by Pierre Boulez. Maybe that's why J.S. Bach sometimes goes above people's heads and sounds too technical and counterpoint laden, whatever. Basically, if you're a layman and you need to analyse a score to "get" music or whatever, it like becomes music for the musicians, not the ordinary listeners.
> 
> I'm not saying J.S. Bach is just as hard to access as Boulez or some other living composer. What I'm saying is that often those into both these guy's music heavily and deeply are musicians. Obvious conclusion for me is that guys like Handel or Vivaldi give me more without the technical and cerebral kind of things. I'd say they are the more accessible composers of the Baroque, not J.S. Bach (if you're a layman, not a musician). Or maybe I'm talking balderdash and generalising? I don't know, this is just my thinking as of this minute based on some of the posts above...


Yeah, _Sid_, you are probably 'talking balderdash' from a musician's viewpoint. Personally, if I feel I need to analyze a work to 'get it', it'll never happen. I am willing to listen to a promising work several times in a fortnight, if that's required for 'getting' it. Much of Bach's solo music succumbs to that procedure. I have to admit that his WTC Book One wasn't making it, until I heard Arthur Loesser play it - but that's another story.

BTW _Sid_, my spellchecker would prefer that you use 'Z' more often.

 - - -


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^ Yeah I was probably going out on a limb a bit there, but they're just my thoughts. Interesting to read your thoughts - as a musician - as well. AS the other member was saying above, to 'get' can be different from just to enjoy.

Re. the spelling, here in Australia we write specialise (with s) not specialize (with z) as in USA. We follow the English way, not the USA way in most or all things, as far as I know. We write colour not color like you in USA, etc...


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Sid James said:


> ^^ Yeah I was probably going out on a limb a bit there, but they're just my thoughts. Interesting to read your thoughts - as a musician - as well. AS the other member was saying above, to 'get' can be different from just to enjoy.
> 
> Re. the spelling, here in Australia we write specialise (with s) not specialize (with z) as in USA. We follow the English way, not the USA way in most or all things, as far as I know. We write colour not color like you in USA, etc...


Ahem; I am a musician only with words. And I realize that you Brits and Anglophiles ditch the 'z' just to annoy my spellchecker.

Speaking of musicians: I have been immersing myself in my Alkan collection, in preparation for my TC Magnum Opus on recordings of his music. _There_ is music that repays concentration. Even the Op. 63 Esquisses bring out 'What was _that_?'


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Rasa said:


> In reference to Bach keyboard works I mean the following: knowing about how a fugue is written, knowing the voices, knowing the theme and how it and it's derivatives are used in the developement, getting a feel for how the themes fit in with the metrum of the thing, perhaps taking a peek at the proportions of the piece (golden intersection somewhere perhaps?), getting an idea how the voices may create some dissonance and how it's resolved in a way that doesn't breach the thematic material etc.
> 
> In my experience, having engaged in a through analysis of a work resulted in me enjoying the work where I didn't particularly do so before.


Agreeable advice, probably the most useful in this thread so far. Though I find many of Bach's keyboard music, as densely rich in counterpoint and fugues as they may be, still strike me as listenable without necessarily understanding "how it works". Like the _Brandenburgs_, which as also are rich, Bach's music just strike as as uniquely rich in the technical sense but deep in emotional content. An exception is his final major work, _Art of Fugue_, which is arguably a didactic piece and not really intended for performance, though Jordi Savall's version of it played on several instruments have provided me a thoroughly listenable and enjoyable CD of it.


----------



## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Bach's music just strike as as uniquely rich in the technical sense but deep in emotional content. An exception is his final major work, _Art of Fugue_.


Let's see if we can change this *opinion* of yours:






Contrapunctus 5.

Nope, no emotions whatsoever, right?


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> ...Though I find many of Bach's keyboard music, as densely rich in counterpoint and fugues as they may be, still strike me as listenable without necessarily understanding "how it works"...Bach's music just strike as as uniquely rich in the technical sense but deep in emotional content...


I must say I've had some "success" with his solo instrumental music, eg. keyboard, cello, violin, his organ music is good but I prefer the lighter things - eg. many of the French composers - & I'm now beginning to listen to his guitar music which may prove the be the most fruitful of the lot. The guitar's sound is brighter than that of the cello or violin, the feeling I get is less lonely. Solo instrumental is good if you don't like complexity or too much complexity to start with...


----------



## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I must say I've had some "success" with his solo instrumental music, eg. keyboard, cello, violin, his organ music is good but I prefer the lighter things - eg. many of the French composers - & I'm now beginning to listen to his guitar music which may prove the be the most fruitful of the lot. The guitar's sound is brighter than that of the cello or violin, the feeling I get is less lonely. Solo instrumental is good if you don't like complexity or too much complexity to start with...


----------



## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

I love everything Bach wrote, even within in the strict forms of the day his endless flow of creativity is simply dazzling.
Admittedly Some of his works are more “serious” than others and require more effort from the listener, but it's these works that eventually give back the most rewarding musical experiences.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Last week I found a nice Bach sampler on the Erato label called Bach In Leipzig. It features some organ works performed by Marie Claire Alain, and some choral excerpts from the cantatas. A perfect introduction for a neophyte like myself.


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Ahem; I am a musician only with words. And I realize that you Brits and Anglophiles ditch the 'z' just to annoy my spellchecker.
> 
> Speaking of musicians: I have been immersing myself in my Alkan collection, in preparation for my TC Magnum Opus on recordings of his music. _There_ is music that repays concentration. Even the Op. 63 Esquisses bring out 'What was _that_?'


I could just read his esquisses and organ music for hours.


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)




----------



## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Try this.I heard this little lady hold the whole Albert Hall spellbound with it


----------



## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

bestcoaster said:


> I've been listening to classical music off and on for over a decade now, though I've never been a particularly serious fan. I've gone through a bunch of change in preferences, but one constant has been that I've never gotten Bach. With the exception of the Brandenburg Concertos, everything I've listened to has left me dead. (Some examples of "great" works I've tried and failed to like: WTC, Goldberg Variations, St. Matthew's Passion, Mass in B Minor, Art of Fugue).
> 
> I don't expect to ever be a great fan of the Baroque era, but given the high regard everyone else has for Bach I feel like I must be missing something. Can you all recommend some stuff that might help me appreciate Bach better?
> 
> ...


Bach is my most beloved composer. Started listening to him at age 2.

Since you seem to have a predilection for the more romantic/orchestral sound and content, I'd guess that your best path to Bach might be through arrangements of his music by later conductors and composers, like Beecham, Stokowski, and Busoni.


----------



## cello suite (Jul 31, 2018)

Get Bach to where you once belonged.


----------

