# Where's the love for Beethoven's 2nd and 4th symphonies!



## gellio

Hi All,

I've always been a 3, 5, 6, 7 and 9 guy. Lately, I have been revisiting Beethoven's symphonies, partly due to getting Gardiner's set which is AWESOME! It's given me a whole new appreciation for the 2nd and the 4th. I never see any love for these two symphonies. I think the 2nd is fantastic and the 4th marvelous. Are there any other fans of the 2nd and 4th? I think the 8th is highly underrated as well. My favs will always be 3, 5, 6, 7 and 9, but I gotta give big props to 2, 4 and 8.


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## Ukko

I consider the 2nd to be a 'transitional' work, a progression from the 1st. The 4th is the equal of the 5th in everything except chutzpah.


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## gellio

Ukko said:


> I consider the 2nd to be a 'transitional' work, a progression from the 1st. The 4th is the equal of the 5th in everything except chutzpah.


2 is definitely a transitional piece but it's full of quintessential Beethoven. The 4th is outstanding.


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## KenOC

#1 is feeling terribly, terribly left out.

The Andante Cantabile was a big hit when #1 came out. It's dedicated to Baron Gottfried van Swieten, who often had Beethoven over to his place for soirees where he was made to play Bach preludes and Fugues from the WTC "until my fingers bled." But obviously Beethoven was grateful to the Baron for helping advance his career in Vienna.


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## bz3

KenOC said:


> #1 is feeling terribly, terribly left out.


I'll give him some love! I really enjoy the 1st movement themes and of course the scherzo in Beethoven's 1st.

As for 2 and 4 they are great too. Especially 4 - I see it as a bouncy precursor to the astounding rhythmic ecstasy of his 7th symphony. I listen to his 4th quite often, partially because I don't need to be in a certain mood to want to hear it (unlike say 5, 7, or 9) and partially because its elasticity lends itself to a variety of amiable interpretations.

And then 8 of course, one of my favorites in the whole symphonic genre. Better melodies perhaps than all of B's symphonies - at the very least they are up there with Symphony 9 and the Violin Concerto in that regard IMO. Funny how it's sometimes written off as a mere capstone to the Haydn-esque classical era symphony. Derisive comment in the view of some, maybe. In my opinion if you can write a small scale symphony worthy of being Haydn-esque then you have done something right - and something that few others could do.


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## SixFootScowl

I was a 3,5,6 and 9 guy but recently discovered just how absolutely wonderful the 4th is. Now I am a 3-6 and 9 guy.

I must admit though that apart from listening through whole symphony cycles, I am a neglecter of 1 and 2.


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## Triplets

I love those 2 Symphonies. First heard them on lp of Krips and the LSO. I recently delist ended to that disc and the thrill is still there!


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## Antiquarian

I also like Beethoven's 2nd. As mentioned above, it is a transitional piece, but an amazing one. I feel that it culminates the end of the entire "classical " period of music and presages what the "romantic" period promises. It shows the Master has come to grips with his genius, and is tenatively exploring new musical realms that will come to full flower in the 3rd.


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## Pugg

I have nothing against no 4, beautiful piece :tiphat:


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## Guest

2nd, yes, like it...4th...fairly unmemorable


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## dgee

I have a lot of love for them and in the last several years will go back to them again and again - along with 8 - in a way that I just can't be bothered to with the others. They're excellent and fun - and that's what music is all about


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## DavidA

When I was a lad I got an LP of a Toscanini conducted the 2nd and 4th and I've been a great fan of them ever since.
Toscanini is still really the benchmark but the recording leaves a lot to be desired. Karajan's 1963 set contains to dynamic and beautiful performances of the works. They are there to enjoy folks!!!


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## DavidA

MacLeod said:


> 2nd, yes, like it...4th...fairly unmemorable


You suffer from memory loss?


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## AndorFoldes

Why would you not be a 1-9 guy?

I get being selective with Haydn and Mozart who mass-produced symphonies at an early stage in their development, or with lesser composers, but this is Beethoven we are talking about.


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## BoggyB

IMO there are two extremes here. On one side, there's the man on the street who only acknowledges 3-5-6-7-9, and on the other side there's the pretentious listener who oversells 1-2-4-8. (Hey look, powers of 2.) I agree that 4 and 8 are stupidly underrated, but from 1 and 2, only the finale of 1 sticks out in my memory. And I've never really bought into 3...


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## HaydnBearstheClock

AndorFoldes said:


> Why would you not be a 1-9 guy?
> 
> I get being selective with Haydn and Mozart who mass-produced symphonies at an early stage in their development, or with lesser composers, but this is Beethoven we are talking about.


Meh, Haydn's symphonies are solid all throughout imo. As for Beethoven's 2nd and 4th, I really like them. Beethoven's 2nd got me into Beethoven, probably. I espeically like the intensity of the 1st movement and the lyrical and very well orchestrated 2nd movement. Beethoven's 4th leaves a similar impression to his 4th Piano Concerto - it is 'bittersweet' in tone. The 1st and 2nd movements both have some very nice melodies. The 2nd movement has a dramatic edge to it which I enjoy.


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## SixFootScowl

AndorFoldes said:


> Why would you not be a 1-9 guy?
> 
> I get being selective with Haydn and Mozart who mass-produced symphonies at an early stage in their development, or with lesser composers, but this is Beethoven we are talking about.


Oh by all means I like all nine, just that 3-6 and 9 are my favorites.


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## AndorFoldes

Florestan said:


> Oh by all means I like all nine, just that 3-6 and 9 are my favorites.


I see. Fair enough.


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## gellio

BoggyB said:


> IMO there are two extremes here. On one side, there's the man on the street who only acknowledges 3-5-6-7-9, and on the other side there's the pretentious listener who oversells 1-2-4-8. (Hey look, powers of 2.) I agree that 4 and 8 are stupidly underrated, but from 1 and 2, only the finale of 1 sticks out in my memory. And I've never really bought into 3...


For a long time, I never understood the appeal of the 3rd. Now I love it, especially the 1st movement.


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## gellio

Florestan said:


> I was a 3,5,6 and 9 guy but recently discovered just how absolutely wonderful the 4th is. Now I am a 3-6 and 9 guy.
> 
> I must admit though that apart from listening through whole symphony cycles, I am a neglecter of 1 and 2.


My friend, you need to explore the 7th. Good fun and the 2nd movement is astounding.


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## SixFootScowl

gellio said:


> My friend, you need to explore the 7th. Good fun and the 2nd movement is astounding.


Yep, I need to explore 1, 2, 7 and 8. Will do.


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## Sloe

Florestan said:


> Yep, I need to explore 1, 2, 7 and 8. Will do.


I thought you had several Beethoven symphony cycles.


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## KenOC

Weber didn't like Beethoven's 4th at all. If you haven't seen his satirical description, you can read it here.

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/weber-on-beethoven-s-fourth-symphony


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## SixFootScowl

Sloe said:


> I thought you had several Beethoven symphony cycles.


I do. It's just that I always listened to the whole cycles and therein the different symphonies tended to blend together. But focused listening (in the car) was limited more to the 3, 5, 6, and 9 and recently a few spins of #4. Will be pursuing more focused listening of the others soon.


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## Sloe

Florestan said:


> I do. It's just that I always listened to the whole cycles and therein the different symphonies tended to blend together. But focused listening (in the car) was limited more to the 3, 5, 6, and 9 and recently a few spins of #4. Will be pursuing more focused listening of the others soon.


Personally I think at least the fourth symphony is really good. I might probably like it more than the third.
Otherwise my favourite Beethoven symphonies are the usual most popular ones.


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## KenOC

One of the most perfect recordings of Beethoven's 4th is Walter's with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra. You can get the whole set for ten bucks in a well-hidden download, said to be from the Sony remasters of the original set issued on Columbia stereo LPs. My ears tell me that these recordings are, indeed, better than the originals, and without loss of Walter's characteristic warmth.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...feature_browse-bin:625150011&s=dmusic&sr=1-17


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## Manxfeeder

"Where's the Love?" The 4th was my first love; the others came after.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> One of the most perfect recordings of Beethoven's 4th is Walter's with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra. You can get the whole set for ten bucks in a well-hidden download, said to be from the Sony remasters of the original set issued on Columbia stereo LPs. My ears tell me that these recordings are, indeed, better than the originals, and without loss of Walter's characteristic warmth.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...feature_browse-bin:625150011&s=dmusic&sr=1-17


Well I've just listened to the Walter version on Spotify. It was OK, though I can't say it made me love the 4th any more.


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## dieter

I love Symphony #2, I also love number 4. My favourite 2 is the Bruno Walter, followed by the Kurt Sanderling Leningrad, then Szell.
Give me Klemperer and Sanderling for 4.


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## gellio

KenOC said:


> Weber didn't like Beethoven's 4th at all. If you haven't seen his satirical description, you can read it here.
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/weber-on-beethoven-s-fourth-symphony


That's funny. Weber isn't even on the same plane as Beethoven.


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## SixFootScowl

Ok so I am a 3-6 and 9 guy who just recently added #4 to that list, but I just listened to 1, 2, 7 and 8 and frankly of those four, #2 seems to head the list. I'll have to do some more listening to 1,2,7 and 8 but it does look like I will become a 2-6 and 9 guy soon.


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## gellio

Florestan said:


> Ok so I am a 3-6 and 9 guy who just recently added #4 to that list, but I just listened to 1, 2, 7 and 8 and frankly of those four, #2 seems to head the list. I'll have to do some more listening to 1,2,7 and 8 but it does look like I will become a 2-6 and 9 guy soon.


Nice. 2 is great. I think the 2nd movement of the 7th is one of the best things Beethoven wrote.


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## KenOC

The audience demanded (and got) an encore of the 7th's second movement at the first performance.


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## dieter

gellio said:


> That's funny. Weber isn't even on the same plane as Beethoven.


He obviously missed his flight.


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## Gordontrek

The love is there for sure....but it isn't quite up there with the others. I love Tchaikovsky's first three symphonies, but his latter three are the clear-cut winners. Same concept for Beethoven's symphonies.


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## John T

Pugg said:


> I have nothing against no 4, beautiful piece :tiphat:


Indeed, it is, and I love Günter Wand's recording of it with the NDR-Sinfonieorchester. (RCA).


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

John T said:


> Indeed, it is, and I love Günter Wand's recording of it with the NDR-Sinfonieorchester. (RCA).


Hey, me too. That's by far my favorite 4th.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

DavidA said:


> You suffer from memory loss?


That would explain the lack of appreciation of the 4th


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## John T

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Hey, me too. That's by far my favorite 4th.


Your taste is impeccable!


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## clavichorder

gellio said:


> That's funny. Weber isn't even on the same plane as Beethoven.


Beethoven was certainly an extraordinary genius. But Weber was/is not a minor figure. You can hear brilliance and originality is his opera overtures. There is a reason they often credit him with such a huge role in the start of the romantic era, apart from his conducting. His other works, like the piano sonatas seem more Hummellian, but are still very good.

I enjoy every Beethoven symphony, 4th included. I give each one it's own space.


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## KenOC

clavichorder said:


> Beethoven was certainly an extraordinary genius. But Weber was/is not a minor figure.


Beethoven evidently took Weber's criticism of his 4th Symphony in good humor. Many years later, when Weber had written _Der Freischütz_, Beethoven spoke highly of it. He met with Weber in 1823 and was quoted as saying, "There you are, you rascal; you're a devil of a fellow, God bless you! Weber, you always were a fine fellow."


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

KenOC said:


> Beethoven evidently took Weber's criticism of his 4th Symphony in good humor. Many years later, when Weber had written _Der Freischütz_, Beethoven spoke highly of it. He met with Weber in 1823 and was quoted as saying, "There you are, you rascal; you're a devil of a fellow, God bless you! Weber, you always were a fine fellow."


Do we have evidence that Beethoven knew of Weber's criticism of his 4th?


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## KenOC

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Do we have evidence that Beethoven knew of Weber's criticism of his 4th?


No direct evidence, but Beethoven was a voracious reader on current musical affairs and especially anything to do with himself. In the small world he lived in, he'd hardly have missed it. If he did, somebody would have told him!

Sometimes Beethoven did respond to bad reviews. After a string of them early on in the Leipzig AMZ, he wrote the publisher a letter of complaint. The publisher, Breitkopf & Härtel, was also a buyer for Beethoven's music and decided to mollify him by assigning a new reviewer to his works. His reviews became much better after that, and Beethoven continued to use B&H to publish his music.

B&H is still around and is the world's oldest music publishing house.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

KenOC said:


> No direct evidence, but Beethoven was a voracious reader on current musical affairs and especially anything to do with himself. In the small world he lived in, he'd hardly have missed it. If he did, somebody would have told him!
> 
> Sometimes Beethoven did respond to bad reviews. After a string of them early on in the Leipzig AMZ, he wrote the publisher a letter of complaint. The publisher, Breitkopf & Härtel, was also a buyer for Beethoven's music and decided to mollify him by assigning a new reviewer to his works. His reviews became much better after that, and Beethoven continued to use B&H to publish his music.
> 
> B&H is still around and is the world's oldest music publishing house.


Yep, that makes it likely he knew about it.


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## KenOC

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Yep, that makes it likely he knew about it.


It's likely that musical happenings outside Vienna and its surroundings were seldom heard or read by Beethoven. Those were different days. Beethoven, by then lionized in Vienna, traveled with Giovanni Punto to Pest to perform his Horn Sonata, Op. 17. A critic there wrote, "Who is this Beethoven? His name is not known to us. Of course, Punto is very well known."

Even the Eroica symphony, which made huge waves locally, wasn't performed in Italy for well over half a century.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

KenOC said:


> It's likely that musical happenings outside Vienna and its surroundings were seldom heard or read by Beethoven. Those were different days. Beethoven, by then lionized in Vienna, traveled with Giovanni Punto to Pest to perform his Horn Sonata, Op. 17. A critic there wrote, "Who is this Beethoven? His name is not known to us. Of course, Punto is very well known."
> 
> Even the Eroica symphony, which made huge waves locally, wasn't performed in Italy for well over half a century.


Well, the Italians were too enamoured with Rossini's operas to pay attention to symphonies 

Yeah, information back in Beethoven's days was much more localized than nowadays. Although, your story seems to be taken from Beethoven's earlier days. I'm sure by the time of his death he was well-known all over Europe's musical world.


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## KenOC

Yes, that story was from 1800-1801. He was well known in Vienna by then, primarily for his chamber music, Pathetique sonata, and so forth. But not so well known elsewhere. That would, as you say, change.


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## gumnut

Ukko said:


> I consider the 2nd to be a 'transitional' work, a progression from the 1st. The 4th is the equal of the 5th in everything except chutzpah.


Agree with this completely.


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## Totenfeier

I've always loved the 4th; I don't know the 1st or 2nd well enough to judge. By the by, what critique would ya'll have about the "odd, dark roast; even, light roast" theory of Beethoven symphonies - he surges ahead with power and strength in the odd-numbered ones, and relaxes back into a lighter vein in the evens? Too facile? What would the outliers be, in your opinion? (Not sure this warrants a thread of its own; if I've just committed hijack, feel free to smack me and have me sit in the corner).


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## Notorious JWB

I really fell for the 4th when I heard it done live about 20 years ago, but never heard Carlos Kleiber's now-legendary version until much more recently. It's enough to win over any skeptic. 
Been a while since I listened to the 2nd - at your urging I'll give it another spin soon.


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## EarthBoundRules

Lots of people love the fourth. I especially enjoy the beautiful second movement. As for the second and first, well... they're not _bad_.


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## Art Rock

The fourth is actually quite good, I find - just a notch below his best quartet (3/5/6/7), and above the 8th.

The second is for me an also ran, like the first.


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## Enthusiast

I couldn't choose between Beethoven's symphonies. Each one is unique and whole and among the most wonderful music ever written. If you just love the more stormy ones you are surely missing something big about what Beethoven could do? I suppose the first two are less world stopping than 3-9 and they show Beethoven developing into the force he became. But they are wonderful, life enhancing music and I couldn't say that they are somehow less than any of the symphonies that had come before them, including Haydn's and Mozart's most wonderful works. So to me they must rank as among a very select group of the greatest symphonies ever!


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## dieter

Art Rock said:


> The fourth is actually quite good, I find - just a notch below his best quartet (3/5/6/7), and above the 8th.
> 
> The second is for me an also ran, like the first.


A calibrated man. Ah, the certainty of youth...


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## Guest

I'd rather listen to LvBs 1 and 2 than Sibelius' 1 or 2. I'd much rather listen to Sibelius' 4 than LvBs 4... if that means anything.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Art Rock said:


> The fourth is actually quite good, I find - just a notch below his best quartet (3/5/6/7), and above the 8th.
> 
> The second is for me an also ran, like the first.


The 4th is actually better than the 6th, which doesn't belong with the great trio of 3, 5 and 7.


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## Xaltotun

The 2nd is very good but the 4th is a masterpiece. There is something mystical, liberating and alluring about it.


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## BoggyB

EarthBoundRules said:


> Lots of people love the fourth. I especially enjoy the beautiful second movement. As for the second and first, well... they're not _bad_.


Yep. Four (and eight) suffers from being compared to the giants on either side, whereas one and two are teeth cutters. Only the finale of number one stands out, for me, from the first two.


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## dieter

Heard the 2nd again today, radio broadcast, Vanska, Minneapolis, wonderful performance, what a mighty work, so full of life and invention.


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## geralmar

I like 1&2, but honesty can't tell them apart. I intensely dislike #8, but recognize it instantly.


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## DavidA

geralmar said:


> I like 1&2, but honesty can't tell them apart. I intensely dislike #8, but recognize it instantly.


I had problems with Beethoven's 8th Symphony until I realised it is a musical joke, a parody on a past classical style. It is full of good humour which is remarkable as Beethoven's life was absolutely terrible at the time it was written


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## SixFootScowl

DavidA said:


> I had problems with Beethoven's 8th Symphony until I realised it is *a musical joke*, a parody on a past classical style. It is full of good humour which is remarkable as Beethoven's life was absolutely terrible at the time it was written


Fascinating. I'll have to remember that next time I listen. So LvB changed the course of classical music and then playfully dissed the former stuff, which would include at least LvB's own 1st Symphony.


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## bz3

Florestan said:


> Fascinating. I'll have to remember that next time I listen. So LvB changed the course of classical music and then playfully dissed the former stuff, which would include at least LvB's own 1st Symphony.


I humbly disagree with the 8th being a diss or even a parody of prior forms. It does harken back to his roots as a student of Haydn (particularly with the inclusion of a minuet) but I don't think it was meant to show the silliness or limitedness of the Haydn-esque form. Rather I think Beethoven was offering a defense of the classical style symphony as a still-dynamic form in spite of his prior formal innovations to the symphonic form. There is humor yes, but I also find rich themes and strong dynamism. Beethoven doing perhaps his only "absolute music" symphony.

And in terms of uniqueness it's up there with anyone's symphonies, but certainly among Beethoven's. For one it has even less of a true slow movement than does the 7th. For another it's much more melodic than its companion, and I'd argue its rondo finale is so lively that it's even more difficult to pull off properly than the finale of the 7th. I don't think it's anything like his earlier symphonies that owe themselves almost entirely to Haydn.

It's been called "proto-neoclassical" which sounds impressive even to someone like me who remains utterly unimpressed by academia's categorical fetishism. Why this impresses me (in spite of my low-prole mind for distinctions without a difference) has to do with how I view its ingeniously veiled complexity. The 3rd has its urgency and personality, the 6th has its explicit programmatic core, the 7th has its rhythms, and the 5th and 9th now belong to the zeitgeist while the 8th sits humbly to itself - as fresh as ever but incompatible with stereotype or appropriation.

In any case, at least in my view, crafting a symphony worthy of being compared to Haydn's later works is a singular accomplishment alone - and one that most symphonists could only dream of doing regardless of their particular era or style.


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## KenOC

DavidA said:


> I had problems with Beethoven's 8th Symphony until I realised it is a musical joke, a parody on a past classical style. It is full of good humour which is remarkable as Beethoven's life was absolutely terrible at the time it was written


Actually Beethoven's 8th Symphony was written in a very good part of his life. He was wrapping up his second period with a string of triumphs - the 7th Symphony, Emperor Concerto, and Archduke Trio, the successful revival of Fidelio, as well as his greatest commercial success to that time, Wellington's Victory. This was around the time of the Congress of Vienna, for which Beethoven composed some profitable potboilers in addition to his really good stuff. He had just received (in 1809) a handsome guaranteed annual stipend for the rest of his life that required nothing of him but to remain in Vienna.

Of course things didn't work out all that well, but that's another story.


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> Actually Beethoven's 8th Symphony was written in a very good part of his life. He was wrapping up his second period with a string of triumphs - the 7th Symphony, Emperor Concerto, and Archduke Trio, the successful revival of Fidelio, as well as his greatest commercial success to that time, Wellington's Victory. This was around the time of the Congress of Vienna, for which Beethoven composed some profitable potboilers in addition to his really good stuff. He had just received (in 1809) a handsome guaranteed annual stipend for the rest of his life that required nothing of him but to remain in Vienna.
> 
> Of course things didn't work out all that well, but that's another story.


I was actually referring to the health problems he was having


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## PlaySalieri

The 2nd symphony I would never want to hear again.

But I like the 4th.


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## Bevo

I enjoy the 2nd every now and then, but the 4th is definitely one of my favorites!! Just curious, when listening to the opening Adagio of the Fourth does anyone else hear the presence of the opening of Haydn's 101st Symphony? Just an observation. Anyways, in my personal opinion, in order to fully experience the greatness of the opening movement it needs to be performed with the repeats, which I feel are too often neglected!! I say that because the opening Dominant chords leading to the Allegro are so powerful, and hearing how Beethoven incorporates them a second time to implement the repeat is so thrilling!! I also think that, excluding the Ninth, this Symphony contains my favorite of Beethoven's Scherzos. I love the playfulness in this piece.


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