# Who enjoys listening to original instruments in works for solo instruments?



## JSBach85 (Feb 18, 2017)

Note that I am not referring to period instruments as copies of original ones but historical/museum/original instruments. Instruments made in baroque period or classical era dated from 18th century that have survived to date. It can be flutes, violins, violas, violoncellos, harpsichords, organs, ... as solo instruments such as Bach partitas for solo violin or harpsichord works or organ works. Do you enjoy listening historical instruments? My real life experience with historical instruments in live performances is limited to a chamber organ and a baroque violin but I would like to attend this kind of events more often. One of the most important reasons that Baroque music is my favourite among others is because of the historical instruments and since I enjoyed listening to Bach and Vivaldi I have been always curious to listen to baroque instruments as they could have sounded past then.


----------



## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

I do love HIP performances but whether the instruments that are playing are genuine original instruments or not really does not bother me too much, its the overall sound that I enjoy.


----------



## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

In this disc,







, Itzhak Perlman plays both his Guarneri violin and a Stradivarius. Both sound beautiful....different, but both beautiful.

I enjoy listening to HIP and modern instruments; different flavors...all good.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Joe B said:


> In this disc,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am with you Joe, alas HIP people are strong minded.
( It's fine by me as long as I can go my own way.)


----------



## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Pugg said:


> [...] HIP people are strong minded.
> ( It's fine by me [...]


Thanks!



Pugg said:


> [...] as long as I can go my own way.)


Strong minded, eh? 

I.c. the topic: many 'original' instruments had to be restored to make them playable, and, in many cases, even a refined restorer had/has to make educated guesses about the 'original' construction and sound.

In my experience though, I must say that, especially with church organs, most well-considered restored old instruments sound better (less slick) than newly built reconstructions. As always, there are a few exceptions of course.

In general, I do not bother that much personally, as long as I can go my own way.


----------



## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Marc said:


> I.c. the topic: many 'original' instruments had to be restored to make them playable, and, in many cases, even a refined restorer had/has to make educated guesses about the 'original' construction and sound.


This is a critical point. Assuming that the instruments are restorable, and sufficient literature exists to guide in that restoration, then approximation is still the best we can do. It's very much the same with performance practices and styles. No one will ever know exactly how things were done in the 18th century, so we make best guesses based on available sources and interpretation.

The string family is perhaps where more original instruments have survived than any other family of instruments, yet even here, are we setting up these instruments in exactly the same way? Are we extruding gut strings using the same methods that were used 300 years ago? Are we cutting bridges and mounting them in the same position? Or placing the sound post exactly so? And does it really matter?

The family of instruments I'd most like to hear the originals of is the wind instruments, and very specifically, the recorder (blockflöte, flûte à bec). Yet almost none that I'm aware of have survived in playable form. Everything we hear is a copy, a modern interpretation of the original sitting in a museum somewhere.

But when all is said and done, the interest in hearing the original is, for me, nothing more than fleeting curiosity. I do not believe using the original instruments, had they survived, would necessarily lead to greater musicality, a better sound. A more authentic performance? Perhaps. But ultimately I'll take quality of interpretation over "true" authenticity any day.


----------



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

I like the HIP sound but don't mind if the instruments are modern or antique.

I love those CD's where you get more details about the instruments than the players. They give a simple list of players then about three pages listing the instruments, the date, the maker and so forth. Great fun.

I remember many years ago going to an early music festival in Durham (England) where one of the delights was a session on making your own instruments. Here in Norfolk, there's currently a thriving make your own viol industry. Our local Baroque group even uses a local harpsichord maker!

Basically, I don't care about the instruments, the recording techniques, the hi-fi whatever, all I'm interested in is the music.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Marc said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Strong minded, eh?
> 
> ...


I agree with you that old organs sound better than new ones. Maybe the materials need to age.

The same may be true of harpsichords, instruments which have not had a ravalement can sound very good.


----------



## JSBach85 (Feb 18, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I agree with you that old organs sound better than new ones. Maybe the materials need to age.
> 
> The same may be true of harpsichords, instruments which have not had a ravalement can sound very good.


I have never attended to an organ church recital or works involving an historical organ, this is one of the things I want to do in a close future and in Spain they are fairly common as we have historical restored organs in a number of churches/cathedrals, most of them from 16th century to 18th century. Since we also have our organ composers It also would be an excellent opportunity to be more familiar with spanish baroque organ works. I wonder if you know about organ live concerts in other places in Europe.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JSBach85 said:


> I have never attended to an organ church recital or works involving an historical organ, this is one of the things I want to do in a close future and in Spain they are fairly common as we have historical restored organs in a number of churches/cathedrals, most of them from 16th century to 18th century. Since we also have our organ composers It also would be an excellent opportunity to be more familiar with spanish baroque organ works. I wonder if you know about organ live concerts in other places in Europe.


Doesn't Madrid have a lot of churches, I know for fact that in Paris there's almost every week one in the famous Saint-Eustache Church .


----------



## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> I agree with you that old organs sound better than new ones. *Maybe the materials need to age.
> *


Yes, like good red wine. But old organs were new long time ago. And by then they probably sounded new, like newly built stylistic copies do today. So no matter how informed the restoring of old organs is to day, they will never be made to sound like when they once were new. What should we then consider the most authentic? The restored Schnitger organ in St.Jacobi Kirche, Hamburg or the rather accurate newly built stylistic copy in Örgryte Nya Kyrka, Göteborg? Well, Schnitger often used old pipes in his organs, but this was not in order to preserve some old sound (he built always his organs according to his own estetic ideals), but in order to save money.

But I agree of course, that old restored organs tend to sound better than new ones, even if the new ones may be more authentic in the strictest sense.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

This was so striking to me just recently listening to two recordings, one was the one by Tymen Jan Bronda at Lutherse Kerk Groningen -- I found the way the organ sounds really surprising. And the other was Giulia Nuti's CD with Chambonnieres, which Johan van Veen suggests (he doesn't actually say it directly) was not subjected to a ravalement, and which sounds wonderful I think.

http://www.musica-dei-donum.org/cd_reviews/Arcana_A434.html


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

JSBach85 said:


> I wonder if you know about organ live concerts in other places in Europe.


I have been to organ concerts, but it's really hard to find out what's happening. There are listings, and the churches may well publish concert diaries, but they're often very incomplete -- they often don't tell you what the music the organist is going to play for example.

I think there are a lot of fine organs in Spain, around Seville for example. The Spanish baroque organ tradition was very distinctive, with split keyboards (medio registro) and some colourful stops. You may be interested to explore José Enrique Ayarra's excellent Arauxo recordings for a taste of some of these instruments.

I'd certainly travel to Andalusia to hear a concert on some of them, so let me know if you find out about anything!


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

From the booklet to Giulia Nuti's Bauyn Manuscript CD, which is interesting not least because it records how the encounter with an instrument effects the interpretation, I remember Hans Davidsson talked about this in his Buxtehude essays.



> The harpsichord used for this recording was built in
> Paris in 1658 by Louis Denis. It is a French harpsichord
> by one of the finest of French makers, who sought prop-
> erties and qualities other than those emphasized by
> ...


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Dan Ante said:


> I do love HIP performances but whether the instruments that are playing are genuine original instruments or not really does not bother me too much, its the overall sound that I enjoy.


Same here. A good recording is a good recording whether its played on new instruments, original instruments or a kazoo.


----------



## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Old Organs, no wise cracks please.
As a young lad I used to sing in a church choir, it was a small church and had a bellows operated organ we had to take it in turns to be the boy on the bellows, I found out recently that the organ had been scraped and a new, small organ installed. a bit of a shame but there you go.


----------



## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

JSBach85 said:


> I have never attended to an organ church recital or works involving an historical organ, this is one of the things I want to do in a close future and in Spain they are fairly common as we have historical restored organs in a number of churches/cathedrals, most of them from 16th century to 18th century. Since we also have our organ composers It also would be an excellent opportunity to be more familiar with spanish baroque organ works. I wonder if you know about organ live concerts in other places in Europe.


I.c. organs: even on recordings you can already hear differences in so-called sound character of various instruments. For instance: there are a few Garnier organs in Japan built 'in Schnitger style' who sound rather slick and shallow compared to the earlier mentioned organs (again 'in Schnitger style') in Göteborg, Sweden (from the GOArt project) and the Lutherse Kerk in Groningen, NL (built by Bernhardt Edskes). The latter two are far superior IMHO.

About organ concerts in Europe (in general): see Mandryka's post. In many cases, those concerts are reasonably prized events, announced without detailed concert programs. One can be surprised or... (only) sometimes be disappointed.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Marc said:


> One can be surprised or... (only) sometimes be disappointed.


yes but the problem is that I don't want to travel to Groningen or Seville just for a 30 minute concert of one Bach fugue and then a lot of 19th century organ music.


----------



## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Mandryka said:


> yes but the problem is that I don't want to travel to Groningen or Seville just for a 30 minute concert of one Bach fugue and then a lot of 19th century organ music.


I understand completely.


----------



## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

A really fine player who knows his/her way around a Baroque trumpet is a pleasure to hear.


----------

