# Brahms Symphonies - a new poll



## bwv543

I know this poll has been done before, but it simply gave a listing of each symphony, with no other choices. I'm not the only one I know who finds all 4 to be equally amazing, and I know (sad to say) that there are some who don't like the Brahms symphonies, or Brahms in general. But this is a free place to express one's opinions!

If you choose "Other" please indicate in a post!


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## Manxfeeder

I don't see a poll, but I enjoy all four, though it can be argued that the 4th is overall more finely developed and forward-looking and less rooted in classicism.


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## mmsbls

Brahms is simply wonderful. If I had to order my favorite symphonies I would probably choose:
3/4 (tie)
1
2


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## mbhaub

The First is my favorite to listen to as well as to play. The Fourth is my least favorite to listen to and to play, but seems to be most people's favorite.


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## ScottK

My Dad was my music going buddy and I had a joke answer when asked if we were adventurous in our choices of music....... "...oh yeah, we're adventurous...at times we'll go to concerts that don't have any Brahms at all!"

If I had to... 3 & 4 tie 2 & 1 tie.

(and I was just kidding...there's always some Brahms!)


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## Becca

“Exit in case of Brahms”
— Philip Hale’s proposed inscription over the doors of Boston Symphony Hall 

:devil:


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## Rogerx

No 4, no 3 No1 and No2 bases on what I feel now prefer the Serenades the most.


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## Art Rock

4>3>2>1

The third and fourth are among the about 100 compositions that score the elusive 6/6 on the Artrockometer ("hors concours"). The other two rank just below that (5/6, "essential"). Such a spread over only the top two 'tiers' in my personal rating is rare for symphony cycles - the only other one that achieves this is Sibelius' seven. 

I just prepared a post for my art and music blog, selecting my 12 favourite Brahms pieces. Symphonies 2-4 made it (together with the second piano concerto, the violin concerto, the Requiem, and six chamber music pieces).


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## Waehnen

The 4th Symphony gets weaker movement by movement although the 1st Movement is a masterpiece. 

For me the 1st Symphony is the greatest, followed by the 2nd. Then 3rd, then the 4th with it’s uninspiring finale.


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## HerbertNorman

My favourites are 3 and 4


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## Kreisler jr

Waehnen said:


> The 4th Symphony gets weaker movement by movement although the 1st Movement is a masterpiece.
> 
> For me the 1st Symphony is the greatest, followed by the 2nd. Then 3rd, then the 4th with it's uninspiring finale.


Really? I'd have thought that the 4th finale was the most celebrated Brahms finale, certainly not a particularly weak one.

I cannot rank them. The 4th might be the overall favorite but for the 3rd movement; I get that Brahms wanted this ironic contrast but ist "kills the mood". The 3rd has tremendous outer movements but I don't like its most famous 3rd movement. I love the 1st but I think the finale is overambitious and doesn't completely work. The 2nd has no weakness but doesn't strive as high either.


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## Animal the Drummer

3 by a country mile for me. Not a value judgment but a reflection of the particular way it speaks to me and always has. I like the others, but the 3rd I love.


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## Waehnen

Kreisler jr said:


> Really? I'd have thought that the 4th finale was the most celebrated Brahms finale, certainly not a particularly weak one.
> 
> I cannot rank them. The 4th might be the overall favorite but for the 3rd movement; I get that Brahms wanted this ironic contrast but ist "kills the mood". The 3rd has tremendous outer movements but I don't like its most famous 3rd movement. I love the 1st but I think the finale is overambitious and doesn't completely work. The 2nd has no weakness but doesn't strive as high either.


As you might have noticed, high profile material is very important to me in a subjective way. The 4th Symphony finale in my ears is "merely" Brahmsian elaborating and development on the themes of the 1st Movement, with not much profile of it's own. This is my SUBJECTIVE experience.

In a symphony, I think the finale needs to be able to answer and match and stand against the 1st Movement. Here the finale is overshadowed by the absolute mastery of the first movement.


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## Kreisler jr

I agree that symphonies at Brahms' time need a certain overall arch, or in any case, they are better if they have it. The 2nd mostly denies that dramaturgy in favor of somewhat "classicist" mvmts 3+4. The most impressive finale for me is therefore probably the one of the 3rd. I find the one from the 1st overambitious with the extramusical allusions and the Beethoven shadow.
The 4th has the double twist of having a "light", cheerful finale-like mvmt. as scherzo and then the dark tragic real finale which I find very impressive (although not being too fond of 4,iii).


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## bwv543

Kreisler jr said:


> Really? I'd have thought that the 4th finale was the most celebrated Brahms finale, certainly not a particularly weak one.
> 
> I cannot rank them. The 4th might be the overall favorite but for the 3rd movement; I get that Brahms wanted this ironic contrast but ist "kills the mood". The 3rd has tremendous outer movements but I don't like its most famous 3rd movement. I love the 1st but I think the finale is overambitious and doesn't completely work. The 2nd has no weakness but doesn't strive as high either.


I have never known quite what to make of the 3rd movement - it's a masterpiece by itself, but it has often sounded out of place to me in the symphony. I will frequently listen to the other three movements as a unit and really enjoy that. I do think there needs to be a fourth movement in there, but I think the bombast is too much as it seems to overtop the outer movements. Something like the minuet of the 2nd symphony would work well here - something light to provide momentary relief from the tension of the first two movements, but not so heavy that it seems like the court buffoon unwittingly photobombing a picture of a royal family in mourning.


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## RobertJTh

Ranking:
- 3 (perfect from start to finish)
- 2 (1st movement perhaps Brahms' greatest, the rest is slightly less convincing)
- 4 (same, I find the mood switch in the 3rd movement jarring, and the Chaconne always seems too short for me. This symphony deserved a 15 minutes finale)
- 1 (always found it a crude and bombastic piece, lately I've been warming up to it due to some great performances - those can make or break this work)


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## Richannes Wrahms

The 3rd is the only one where an inner movement is memorable and the outer ones are magnificent.


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## Highwayman

They are very close to each other therefore I chose the sixth option in the poll but here is a ranking anyway:

4 - 3rd mvt might be off-putting in certain interpretations but Passacaglia is probably my favourite 10 minute of music.
2 - I think this is the most perfect symphony, the problem is perhaps its more positive overall mood.
1 - I love the outer mvts but the inner mvts are just a bit behind the rest. I don`t think it`s crude but maybe a bit less nuanced.
3 - 2nd & 4th mvts are no lesser than any other mvt but the opening mvt convinces me less than the other 3 symphonies. Similarly to 4/3, Poco Allegretto might be a turn-off in some (many) interpretations.


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## Heck148

I love them all...

#3 is the most difficult, and the biggest challenge for the conductor...it's fun, and challenging to play...


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## Heck148

Waehnen said:


> The 4th Symphony gets weaker movement by movement although the 1st Movement is a masterpiece.


???!!! - listen to Toscanini or Reiner...they build it towards the final movement - and that finale is delivered with great power and effectiveness....no way is the last movement of #4 weak [if done right].


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## Waehnen

Heck148 said:


> ???!!! - listen to Toscanini or Reiner...they build it towards the final movement - and that finale is delivered with great power and effectiveness....no way is the last movement of #4 weak [if done right].


You can make the finale work as music but are you suggesting the finale would stand for one second in a competition against the first movement, in any musical parameter, including dramatic effects?


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## Heck148

Waehnen said:


> You can make the finale work as music but are you suggesting the finale would stand for one second in a competition against the first movement, in any musical parameter, including dramatic effects?


sure, without doubt....the chaconne movement [IV] is a masterpiece of compositional technique and expressive writing....the variations over a ground bass are so skillfully written that the flow of each 8 bar phrase from one to the next is so smooth, seamless....you can just listen to the overall flow, or you can separate each variation and follow the bass figures through each....
it is so skillfully done....Brahms adheres to the form, yet composes so expressively, that the form does not jump out at you, unless you're listening for it...and it's right there!! plenty of drama, too, after the slow, soft middle section following the big flute solo....


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## Merl

4>3>1>2

But ask me in a few months time and I'll say summat else, probably.


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## HenryPenfold

My hitherto (up to a few months ago) favourite Brahms symphony was 2. It is now 3 and I voted accordingly.

Overall order: 3, 2, 4, 1


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## Heck148

Merl said:


> 4>3>1>2
> 
> But ask me in a few months time and I'll say summat else, probably.


Pretty much where I'm at - order could change day by day...my current favorite is the one I'm listening to...sort of....


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## Waehnen

Heck148 said:


> sure, without doubt....the chaconne movement [IV] is a masterpiece of compositional technique and expressive writing....the variations over a ground bass are so skillfully written that the flow of each 8 bar phrase from one to the next is so smooth, seamless....you can just listen to the overall flow, or you can separate each variation and follow the bass figures through each....
> it is so skillfully done....Brahms adheres to the form, yet composes so expressively, that the form does not jump out at you, unless you're listening for it...and it's right there!! plenty of drama, too, after the slow, soft middle section following the big flute solo....


I listened to it again with the little score I have got. It is a skillful chaconne for sure. But this technical and academic showcase leaves me emotionally completely cold. And I am a lover or Brahms´ music in general.

But there is no point in trying to convince others that some music is not suitable to be a finale, is there? If you enjoy it, good for you!


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## Heck148

Waehnen said:


> I listened to it again with the little score I have got. It is a skillful chaconne for sure. But this technical and academic showcase leaves me emotionally completely cold. And I am a lover or Brahms´ music in general.


Now that you know the form, try it again, without the score...just let the flow of the music take you along...Brahms takes the listener on a wonderful journey in the finale of #4....


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## Waehnen

Heck148 said:


> Now that you know the form, try it again, without the score...just let the flow of the music take you along...Brahms takes the listener on a wonderful journey in the finale of #4....


I have at least Kleiber, Karajan, Sawallisch and Furtwängler versions. Been listening to Kleiber lately. I will listen to other versions tomorrow and see if I change my mind. Thanks for persisting, Heck!


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## Kreisler jr

Nobody can make you like it but generally the Brahms 4th finale is regarded very highly and a great and "successful" tragic finale despite the "static" form that in fact does not give the impression of static at all. Of course it is different and not as diverse from the more elegic first movement.
FWIW it seems to me that nowadays that there are only slight differences in the popularity of the Brahms symphonies. They all seem regarded almost equally highly.


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## Brahmsian Colors

My favorite is the Third. Next in order are the Second, First and Fourth.


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## hammeredklavier




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## Waehnen

Kreisler jr said:


> Nobody can make you like it but generally the Brahms 4th finale is regarded very highly and a great and "successful" tragic finale despite the "static" form that in fact does not give the impression of static at all. Of course it is different and not as diverse from the more elegic first movement.
> FWIW it seems to me that nowadays that there are only slight differences in the popularity of the Brahms symphonies. They all seem regarded almost equally highly.


Again Furtwängler seems to do it! He is able to pour the emotion and flow into this music much better than Kleiber. The music and the composer's intention needs to shine through. Brahms would not have bothered with the cold academic music.

Still not my favourite movement, and it would have been better as a middle movement or in a combination of chaconne - heavyweight symphonic coda or something like that.


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## Heck148

Waehnen said:


> I have at least Kleiber, Karajan, Sawallisch and Furtwängler versions. Been listening to Kleiber lately. I will listen to other versions tomorrow and see if I change my mind. Thanks for persisting, Heck!


Kleiber's version is very good, so is Furtwangler....Sawallisch will cure any insomnia....


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## Waehnen

Heck148 said:


> Kleiber's version is very good, so is Furtwangler....Sawallisch will cure any insomnia....


Let me briefly compare the finale of the 4th to the other Brahms symphonic finales.

1/4 gives additional depth to the themes of the symphony. It gives strange atmorpheres, high profile themes and proper celebrative conclusion.

2/4 is triumphant and carries massive kinetic and logomotive energy. It is a high energy counterpart to the 1st movement.

3/4 starts with a themes you can instantly start following. (I secrectly call this the no bullsh1t symphony.) Brahms also refers a lot to the 1st Movement but does not limit himself with a technique like the chaconne. The music flows with a more natural logic. This movement turns the symphony on a certain tragic road. A weighty movement adding a lot to the overall symphonic effect.

None of the above fail to add something to the overall story or emotional impact or dramatic architecture of the symphony. None of the above is a study in a compositional technique whereas the finale of the 4th symphony is in my opinion based on Brahms wanting to explore the harmonic motifs of the 1st movement. - and then he had this bright idea of creating a chaconne out of it. It is often a bad idea for a composer to love his technical ideas more than the expressiveness of the music.


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## Heck148

Waehnen said:


> ....None of the above fail to add something to the overall story or emotional impact or dramatic architecture of the symphony.


Sym #4/IV certainly adds something to the emotional impact and dramatic structure of that symphony...


> ...he had this bright idea of creating a chaconne out of it. It is often a bad idea for a composer to love his technical ideas more than the expressiveness of the music.


??? - what's the matter with a chaconne?? esp one so beautifully structured and dramatic as #4/IV??
It's a wonderful composition - the way Brahms leads us thru, the flow from one variation to the next so seamless, so logical, inevitable even....it isn't a big "rah-rah" conclusion like 1 or 2, but it is powerful nonetheless....very final sounding and complete....


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## Waehnen

Heck148 said:


> Sym #4/IV certainly adds something to the emotional impact and dramatic structure of that symphony...
> 
> ??? - what's the matter with a chaconne?? esp one so beautifully structured and dramatic as #4/IV??
> It's a wonderful composition - the way Brahms leads us thru, the flow from one variation to the next so seamless, so logical, inevitable even....it isn't a big "rah-rah" conclusion like 1 or 2, but it is powerful nonetheless....very final sounding and complete....


I feel no need to try to convince you NOT to like it nor to convince you that you are somehow wrong! This must be one of the subjective things.

No matter how I try to see it from different viewpoints, the 1st movement completely overshadows and diminishes the finale. For me it is a problem and that is why I wish the alternative finale was longer and more heavy weight and the finale as it now is, would be a middle movement.

The chaconne is beautiful and skillfull enough to be an excellent middle movement.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Waehnen said:


> This must be one of the subjective things.


I feel the same as you do here. I certainly have no objection to those who find the last movement appealing, etc. though I've personally never cared for it on aesthetic grounds.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

The only reason I voted no. 1 is I heard it first, and it was live and awesome. Don't need the others, haha!!! BUT Brahms no. 1 is my favorite Brahms and quite important to me.


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## Heck148

Waehnen said:


> ....The chaconne is beautiful and skillfull enough to be an excellent middle movement.


A middle movement??!! what could possibly follow it??


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## Olias

Reading the comments it's fascinating how many opinions are polar opposites to each other, including my own viewpoints.

The 4th is my personal favorite and I love every movement.

The 1st comes next. I love all the movements but it falls slightly beneath the 4th simply because in my opinion it's Brahms channeling Beethoven rather than being himself.

Then the 2nd. I prefer the outer movements to the inner ones but I still enjoy it.

The 3rd I just can't get into. When I did a score study I learned how brilliant the writing is, but listening to it just doesn't do anything for me.

What is lovely though is that all four symphonies are extremely different from each other and everyone can have their favorites.


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## Waehnen

Heck148 said:


> A middle movement??!! what could possibly follow it??


Kinda weird but I think it would be disrespectful of me to try to finish the 4th Symphony finale in some other way than Brahms did. It is his symphony.

I can think of many ways to make the arch better. But it is none of my business.


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## Waehnen

BTW, what do you think of Berglund/COE Brahms cycle? It is quite special, I must say. Refreshing!


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## Kreisler jr

I think it is a stunning and highly original finale with the impression of tragic inevitability. Like the horn canon in the coda of the first movement the "strict form" and also the ominous nature of the theme create this particular mood. Of course, it doesn't "move" in the way the finales of the 2nd and 3rd do but that's part of the originality and the "twist" with the "false finale (scherzo)" before, I'd say.


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## GraemeG

Impossible.
Four bulls-eyes.
Every symphony.
Only other composer who comes close to a perfect score is Sibelius.
I think Brahms would have liked Jean.


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## Waehnen

Kreisler jr said:


> I think it is a stunning and highly original finale with the impression of tragic inevitability. Like the horn canon in the coda of the first movement the "strict form" and also the ominous nature of the theme create this particular mood. Of course, it doesn't "move" in the way the finales of the 2nd and 3rd do but that's part of the originality and the "twist" with the "false finale (scherzo)" before, I'd say.


I have now listened this through with Sawallisch, Kleiber, Furtwängler and Berglund. Had the movement been 5 minutes longer with a bit more "finality" and drama to it, I might have bought it. But this way, none of the maestros mentioned is able to save it.

But enough of me on this issue.

The Berglund/COE cycle is chamber music version of the symphonies! This is skillful and colourful. I am a great admirer of Brahms chamber music so this suits me.


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## Heck148

Waehnen said:


> I have now listened this through with Sawallisch, Kleiber, Furtwängler and Berglund. Had the movement been 5 minutes longer with a bit more "finality" and drama to it, I might have bought it. But this way, none of the maestros mentioned is able to save it.


Hmm...Kleiber and Furtwangler are pretty fine renditions....try Toscanini/NBC or Reiner - they really sell the finale - tremendous power, they really cut loose, Solti's good, too - tho Furt and Kleiber are definitely not lightweights...



> The Berglund/COE cycle is chamber music version of the symphonies! This is skillful and colourful. I am a great admirer of Brahms chamber music so this suits me.


I don't get this present urge to play full symphonies with chamber orchestra....Mahler, Brahms, etc.....they need the full sonority, skillfully balanced, of course... what's next?? a chamber version of Bruckner Sym #8?? Ein Heldenleben?? Mahler #8??


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## Waehnen

Heck148 said:


> Hmm...Kleiber and Furtwangler are pretty fine renditions....try Toscanini/NBC or Reiner - they really sell the finale - tremendous power, they really cut loose, Solti's good, too - tho Furt and Kleiber are definitely not lightweights...
> 
> I don't get this present urge to play full symphonies with chamber orchestra....Mahler, Brahms, etc.....they need the full sonority, skillfully balanced, of course... what's next?? a chamber version of Bruckner Sym #8?? Ein Heldenleben?? Mahler #8??


Chamber orchestra Mahler? Oh my!

The Berglund COE is still a proper symphony orchestra yet smaller. The 3rd Symphony is most appealing to me in this form. I have grown to appreciate it a lot more while getting to see behind the pompous gestures and sound created by the Brahms tradition.


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## ORigel

4>1>2>3>Ser 1>Haydn Var>Ser 2


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## Waehnen

Heck148 said:


> Hmm...Kleiber and Furtwangler are pretty fine renditions....try Toscanini/NBC or Reiner - they really sell the finale - tremendous power, they really cut loose, Solti's good, too - tho Furt and Kleiber are definitely not lightweights...


I finally listened to the 4th Symphony finale by Karajan. This time it works! I am happy to have been proven wrong by Karajan the Maestro.

People sometimes mock Karajan the Maestro, probably because he also wanted to sell a lot of records. But there are times and works where many don´t seem to know what they are doing but Karajan just nails it. Let´s not forget that he inherited the beautiful Furtwängler/Berlin sound!


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## Highwayman

Waehnen said:


> BTW, what do you think of Berglund/COE Brahms cycle? It is quite special, I must say. Refreshing!


This cycle made me sad because Berglund never recorded these with a full orchestra. Berglund`s interpretations are indeed refreshing and multi-faceted but unfortunately super-thin sounded strings killed most of it for me. However, the thin sound works miraculously in the 2nd Symphony where it creates a misty, autumnal atmosphere in the first two movements. The contrast between the first couple movements and the latter half is simply staggering. So it shows that you can achieve some good with smaller forces if the interpretation is accordingly good. But there were instances like in the 4th where I thought the interpretation was very good and fiery but the orchestra lacked gunpowder to deliver it.

I think I`d choose Dausgaard/SwedishCO and Mackerras/ScottishCO over this cycle because they either have stronger string sections or disguise the deficiency more successfully.


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## Waehnen

Highwayman said:


> This cycle made me sad because Berglund never recorded these with a full orchestra. Berglund`s interpretations are indeed refreshing and multi-faceted but unfortunately super-thin sounded strings killed most of it for me. However, the thin sound works miraculously in the 2nd Symphony where it creates a misty, autumnal atmosphere in the first two movements. The contrast between the first couple movements and the latter half is simply staggering. So it shows that you can achieve some good with smaller forces if the interpretation is accordingly good. But there were instances like in the 4th where I thought the interpretation was very good and fiery but the orchestra lacked gunpowder to deliver it.
> 
> I think I`d choose Dausgaard/SwedishCO and Mackerras/ScottishCO over this cycle because they either have stronger string sections or disguise the deficiency more successfully.


You are not wrong! I am a great friend of Brahms´chamber music and have sometimes thought that his orchestral music sounds too thick. So I must admit I loved listening to the symphonies as though they were awesome chamber music. And awesome chamber music this Berglund Brahms is -- although not so symphonic, admittedly.


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## Livly_Station

Brahms' 3rd Symphony is just perfect.


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## SONNET CLV

*Poll:* *What is your favorite Brahms symphony?*

I just put in a vote for "The one I'm currently listening to / I like them all more or less equally".

I think of the Brahms four symphonies rather as one huge, four-part mega-symphony in which no section is dispensable. Try them in a marathon listening session, in numerical order. Revelatory.

I like to listen to the Brahms three piano sonatas in similar manner. The story they tell is revealing ...


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## realdealblues

The first movement of the Brahms Third is one of my favorite melodies ever conceived. For that reason, as a general rule it's probably my favorite, but when I am listening to any of Brahms symphonies I am generally enthralled by what I am listening to at that moment, so for that reason I will vote that it's whichever one I am listening to at the moment.


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## jim prideaux

3-2-4-1.....

Difficulty in which to make my outright favourite between 3rd and 2nd.


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## marlow

Waehnen said:


> I finally listened to the 4th Symphony finale by Karajan. This time it works! I am happy to have been proven wrong by Karajan the Maestro.
> 
> People sometimes mock Karajan the Maestro, probably because he also wanted to sell a lot of records. But there are times and works where many don´t seem to know what they are doing but Karajan just nails it. Let´s not forget that he inherited the beautiful Furtwängler/Berlin sound!


Never trust a guy who's popular - he might be doing something right! :lol:


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## marlow

I’m not that keen on Brahms symphonies but that when I listen to most is the fourth. Kleiber is good and Stokowski and Karajan.

But I prefer the concertos to the symphonies


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## EdwardBast

Years ago it was 3 and 1, over time it's become 4 and 2.


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## Wigmar

As to Brahms' symphonies, I have listened to them all for many years, and they represent some of the finest works in my collection. I must admit a slight preference for the 4th, although I always find so much pleasure in listening to the other ones as well. 

Best regards 
wigmar


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## Rogerx

I voted four, but I do like his chamber works also very much.


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## MarkW

"Brahms is so dependable," One blue hair to another, overheard by Virgil Thomson exiting Carnegie Hall


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## CatchARisingStar

<--- Guilty of being introduced to Brahms's 4th via Yes's "Can And Brahms" from Fragile.


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## Wigmar

bwv543 said:


> I know this poll has been done before, but it simply gave a listing of each symphony, with no other choices. I'm not the only one I know who finds all 4 to be equally amazing, and I know (sad to say) that there are some who don't like the Brahms symphonies, or Brahms in general. But this is a free place to express one's opinions!
> 
> If you choose "Other" please indicate in a post!


I like them all, although the fourth symphony has been most listened to.


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## Nipper

Easily the Third. Love the Bruno Walter/Columbia SO recording.


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## Otis B. Driftwood

Impossible to decide, I love them all. Let's just say the 4th.
My favorite recording is by Mackerras on Telarc.


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## JSL888

1 -- brilliant from all aspects, the struggle of C Minor turning into the triumph of C Major; one of the greatest romantic symphonies out there

2 -- good from start to finish, nice pastoral feeling, but the first movement in particular is absolutely brilliant

3 -- love the third movement, first two movements are quite good, finale is not great though

4 -- first movement is just incredible, second movement is good, passacaglia is my fave Brahms finale, third movement, however is just crude

overall its 1, 2, 4, 3


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