# Giacomo Puccini



## Aramis

No thread devoted to this composer yet? Or I can't use the search engine like I should?

I'll take the risk of doubling and create this one.

So, long time ago (but not very long) there was a badass called Puccini and he was shooting ducks and writing music, mainly operas.










What do you think about duck he killed and music he wrote?

So far I listened to Turandot and Boheme, now I'm planning to gof or more and I'm trying to get Tosca DVD with Muti conducting. I like his moustache and how he makes impression of real italian *******. You know what I mean.

His music relatively cuts from heritage of Bellini and Verdi lineage and shows more interest in Wagner and post-romantic ways. IMO. I like it a lot, the combination of famous italian temperament combined together with style often coming close to Wagners, Mahlers and Bruckners.

Hail di cazzo tipo.


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## jhar26

He had a great gift for melody and he was a brilliant orchestrator. The victims in his operas are always easy to symphatize with and he also understands the evil side of human nature (Turandot, Scarpia, Pinkerton, etc). It's this combination of emotional tenderness and cruelty that makes his operas so compelling. It's impossible for anyone with a heart not to fall in love with Mimi or Cio-Cio San or to feel the urge to kick Pinkerton so hard in the place where it really hurts that it will turn him from a tenor into a soprano.


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## David58117

I like him. I just received his "Definitive Collection" box set which is really spectacular.


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## Falstaft

Parts of Fanciulla del West are stunningly beautiful (and very deftly composed as well).


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## ozradio

I've been eyeing the complete operas on RCA Red Seal. Anyone have that set? I assume it does not include libretti considering the price.


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## TWhite

What's always surprised me about my reaction to Puccini is that, though I like to consider myself an opera buff (God knows I've accompanied my share of Arias, LOL!), except for "Turandot", I can usually either take Puccini or leave him. Mostly leave him, and if someone asked me to explain WHY, I really couldn't answer. 

But "Turandot" just knocks me out! Even if he didn't live long enough to finish it (though it was evidently sketched out well enough for a collaborator to finish), it seemed that he had started in a totally NEW direction. I like the opera so well that I can even put up with Ping, Pang and Pong, or the fact that when Calaf kisses that blood-thirsty Turandot, she just melts away into a limp dishrag, negating her character completely---but the music is just TERRIFIC! 

Tom


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## JoeGreen

Aramis said:


> His music relatively cuts from heritage of Bellini and Verdi lineage and shows more interest in Wagner and post-romantic ways. IMO. I like it a lot, the combination of famous italian temperament combined together with style often coming close to Wagners, Mahlers and Bruckners.


Coming close?

Have you heard _La Fanciulla Del West_? Listen to Act 2, there moments in it where he practically touches hands with his Germanic brethren...


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## Elgarian

What amazes me about Puccini is not really something about Puccini at all, but my own foolishness in following accepted opinion for so long. Having loved _La Boheme_ to bits for most of my life, and being more than a little smitten by _Butterfly_ and _Tosca_, I pretty much stopped there and (having not liked the plot of _Turandot_ much) ignored everything else. It was years and years before I tried _Il Trittico_ and discovered _Suor Angelica_ stuck in the middle of it. Derided as religious-flavoured saccharine by most folks, it seemed to me to fill a musico-dramatic hole I didn't even know was there. It teeters on the borders of sentimentality, yes. But for me, it stays on the right side of the line, and I regard it as a deeply human examination, in drama and music, of the problems posed by faith. There's no easy way out in this opera. The 'miraculous' ending may be real, or illusion. We must decide for ourselves. And as a work of art dealing with the human condition, tackling serious ideas of forgiveness and faith, it makes me realise I know nothing even half so powerful, so intensely beautiful, or so profound.

To really put the boot into all my preconceptions, this year I've discovered _La Rondine_, and have become a _La Rondine_ obsessive. I'm more obsessive about it than I've ever been about any opera apart from the_ Ring_. Yes, it's flawed. Yes, he died before he got Act 3 right. But Acts 1 and 2 are as exquisite and as poignant as anything he ever wrote, and there are at least three outstanding performances (every one different) available on DVD.

The weird thing is this: I read time and again critical reservations about Puccini. Not really a great composer, they say. Too sentimental, they moan. Perhaps that's what happens when critical opinion is the outcome of listening with a head full of theory instead of with one's heart and ears, or with the left brain instead of the right. I just don't know. Anyway, Puccini, if you're reading this somewhere out there in the ether - thank you. Your music enriches my life a good deal more than most.


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## myaskovsky2002

You are lucky you have received such a beautiful box!

What about DVDs?

I love them.

You can get almost every opera on DVD. I have 3 Rondines!!!!!

Two are good, the other one is ggggbad!

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=dvd&field-keywords=la+rondine

The two first ones are good, the third is bad the others I don't know (a friendly suggestion)

About Madama Butterfly, I don't like it.

Elgar and le Villi just weird stores as Premiere opera...

La fanciulla wonderful with Placido Domingo

I like DVDs, I can read what is happening, I love that.

Martin


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## Elgarian

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Two are good, the other one is ggggbad!
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=dvd&field-keywords=la+rondine
> 
> The two first ones are good, the third is bad the others I don't know (a friendly suggestion)


The first two are wonderful - I agree. The third is dodgy - I agree there, too. But the 5th one (from 1958 in black and white) has some wonderful singing and acting in it, if you can put up with the poor production values. The only one I haven't tried yet is no. 6, but the bits on youtube don't look very promising.


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## myaskovsky2002

*if you like Puccini*

this is for you:

http://www.amazon.ca/Ritrovato-Giac...JWUS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291826624&sr=1-1

some scenes he decided to cut or change...a beautiful CD, nice voices.

Martin Pitchon


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## Elgarian

myaskovsky2002 said:


> this is for you:
> 
> http://www.amazon.ca/Ritrovato-Giac...JWUS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291826624&sr=1-1
> 
> some scenes he decided to cut or change...a beautiful CD, nice voices.


Thank you! This looks really interesting, and I've ordered one.


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## myaskovsky2002

*you will not*

regret it...It is very nice indeed.

Martin...

Puccini rules...


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## Lipatti

I like Puccini. He really was a great orchestrator .I'm currently on a run of watching his operas for the first time. After La boheme and La rondine, Tosca is next. Then probably Turandot.


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## myaskovsky2002

*Something peculiar about Puccini*

He is the only composer I know who plays the same music or melody that the singer sings...The same notes. The orchestra plays the same melody and at the same time than the singer.

This is different and well...shocking for some people.

Martin Pitchon


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## myaskovsky2002

*Favourite opera*

Which is your favorite opera by Puccini and why?

It's difficult to say for me.

La fanciulla was the best for a while, Turando also...Now I love la Rondine very deeply...

I'd say I hesitate among these 3.

Martin Pitchon


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## Elgarian

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Which is your favorite opera by Puccini and why?
> 
> It's difficult to say for me.
> La fanciulla was the best for a while, Turando also...Now I love la Rondine very deeply...
> I'd say I hesitate among these 3.


I understand your hesitation. For me it has to be _La Boheme_, partly because it's been an intimate part of my musical background for so very many years, partly because the setting - Bohemian Paris - matches up quite closely with my favourite period in art, and life at the time. So I have a strong affinity for the setting. But also because the first Mimi I ever heard was Mirella Freni, and no one since then has ever come close to matching her. And it was the first opera (apart from_ Der Ring_) that really struck deeply into my being.

Until recently, my second favourite Puccini would have been _Suor Angelica_ (which I've spoken about elsewhere), but I think _La Rondine_, which I've only recently discovered, may well replace it, despite its problematic third act. Like you, I'm presently besotted with it - I love the _fin-de-siecle_ setting, and I love the theme: that is, of the character, Magda, being unable to shake off the consequences of past decisions, and the expression through music and drama of the bitter-sweet heartache, the wild hope and the subsequent anguish, that comes of her vain attempt to do it nonetheless. Only Puccini can write music so perfectly fitting to such a theme, for me.


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## myaskovsky2002

*Rondine's ending*

I have 3 DVDs...one of them (Washington) uses the alternative ending...But apparently this was the idea of Puccini's wife after his death because many people said that was an operetta instead of an opera....

What do you think Martin? (Martin is me...LOL)

I like both endings but I prefer the original one...La Rondine is a bird not reliable as she is...her destiny is there...the true love is not for her. She is the jealousy of all her friends but she pays the price! A very realistic story better than the stupids stories where the girls dies:
La Boheme, Manon Lescault, Madama Butterfly, Suor Angelica...the big scandal about his servant (Doria Manfredi) who inspired him to consider women as victims.

La fanciulla, Turandot and La Rondine were different...Le Villi, the victim is a man, but this is his very first opera.

Puccini is a verist...but he's better than many (e.g. Leoncavallo)...He's the Emile Zola of the opera.

Martin


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## Elgarian

I find Act 3 of_ La Rondine_ is unsatisfactory no matter which version I watch - there is just some apparent lack of inspiration there; somehow the music doesn't ignite, and I'm left thinking how inadequate the plot is, because the music doesn't succeed in elevating the experience enough for me not to feel dissatisfied at the close.

*Suor Angelica* - yes, she's a victim and she dies, but in dying she finds fulfilment, believes for the first time that she's forgiven, and believes she's reunited with her son.

Of course we can worry about whether any of that is _real_, but Angelica believes it is, and the _music_ tells us, I think, that that's all that matters.


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## Sonata

Glad to know there is another Suor Angelica fanatic. I think this one is fantastic.
I have not checked out La Rondine, but I think I will look into it at some point.


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## myaskovsky2002

The worse for me is Il Tabarro. I don't like it. I like suor Angelica...not a lot but I like it.

La Rondine, I like it as a candy since the very beginning until the end.


Martin


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## Aramis

Interesting ****:






Early SQ work of his.


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## myaskovsky2002

*two things.*

Aramis, thank you for this awesome piece.

Thanks to a guy here I bought from amazon.co.uk the 1958's Rondine at a fair price. It is the best Rondine I have ever seen. Thanks again.

Martin


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## prettyhippo

I'm so glad to find people talking about Puccini!!! I was checking out the opera section and got kind of uncomfortable because nobody was really talking about him. (At least, not that I could find.) I find his music more emotional, in a way. I'm not sure how I felt about Turandot, though, I really think it depends on the production. But who can resist "Nessun Dorma"? I LOVE Placido Domingo as Mario in Tosca. And how he plays him as though he knows that he will die, and the way he looks at Tosca as she sings about how happy their life will be once they escape! I liked Il Tabarro. Maybe not in an epic opera sense, but it was an interesting little piece, I think. 
I actually just borrowed La Fanciulla del West from my school library (where I made an *** out of myself by mispronouncing the title to the librarian, who kindly pointed it out...  ). I've heard mixed reviews about it. But I saw this interview where Placido Domingo was describing a scene and how beautiful it was, and it seemed like he started crying, so I figured it's got to be worth checking out, right?


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## Elgarian

prettyhippo said:


> I'm so glad to find people talking about Puccini!!! I was checking out the opera section and got kind of uncomfortable because nobody was really talking about him. (At least, not that I could find.)?


I think you'll find most of the Puccini discussion gets wrapped up with discussion of the DVDs of his operas - so you'll find a LOT of Puccini chat in this thread:

Puccini on DVD


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## Huilunsoittaja

Turandot has a great story, if it could be rated like a movie, it would have 4 stars, not just because of the gorgeous music.

Great story + Great music = Masterpiece


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## prettyhippo

> I think you'll find most of the Puccini discussion gets wrapped up with discussion of the DVDs of his operas - so you'll find a LOT of Puccini chat in this thread:
> 
> Puccini on DVD


Cool, I'll have to check it out.


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## Sieglinde

Tosca was my first Puccini (and second opera) and since it was the De Sabata recording, I still have to find any version that rivals it.

Puccini was awesome. <3


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## brianwalker

He's very Wagnerian. More colorful. Quite lapidary. Diamonds and rubies.


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## Hesoos

Puccini is really a wagnerian, but his arias are totally italian (a bit of verdi or maybe Bellini, the arias and duettos of the Bellini's I Puritani remember me a lot of Puccini)
Bellini perhaps tried to conserve the great arias from the italian operas and link the arias with a modern orchestration like Wagner's orchestration. The result of the fusion italian great arias + Wagner's orchestration = Original Puccini
Anyway, Puccini has a great personal style!


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## Hesoos

For me, my Puccini's number one is Madama Butterfly. La fanciulla is my second.


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## shangoyal

Listening to _La Bohème_ and loving it.


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## HumphreyAppleby

I think that Puccini's best finished work is _Il Trittico_, and then just barely behind it _La fanciulla del west_.

Puccini gets quite a diverse reception from diverse critics. William Berger, Julian Budden, Michele Girardi, and Mary Jane Phillips-Matz all adore(d) him, while the Kermans (who of course called _Tosca_ "That itsy bitsy, teeny weeny, startling opera by Puccini") of the world complain: too much melody, too much doubling of the orchestra and the voice, not enough myth etc. Balderdash. The composers of the day, from Debussy to Webern to Korngold to Ravel all had glowing things to say about Puccini and his operas. He was a brilliant dramatist and composer, whose orchestration in _Fanciulla_ was truly original, whose operatic conceptions were highly innovative, and whose style grew ever more complex but never cluttered or confused.

Ultimately, though, Puccini is about love. His operas taken together are a mosaic of pieces of love, each one beautifully colored and textured to reveal an aspect of it that hadn't been seen before. _Turandot_ was to have been the culmination of this.

Puccini's reception has been so mixed in part because of his tremendous wealth and success, but also because of the shoddy work done on his operas. People seem to think that they can just say whatever the hell they want about Puccini and call it scholarship. There's this talking point that he was a sadist because bad things happened in his operas, often to female characters... And what kind of monster does that make Shakespeare? Or _every other artist who has ever lived_? Puccini was a deeply troubled soul who was able to sublimate his suffering in his operas. That's not sadism. It's art. There's also this notion that he never though about things other than from a purely emotional standpoint. While it is true that he wrote from the heart, his head was not absent: Puccini's operas show a maturation of his emotional life. _Turandot_ would not have been possible for Puccini at 25 not only because his musical skills were not yet that refined, but also because his passionate side had not yet become mature enough. He was a fascinating man, but such a diffident one. (I don't consider him a Wagnerian simply because his dramatic/artistic conception is democratic as opposed to elitist.)

And of course, one cannot leave out his faculty for melodic invention. It is on par with Shakespeare's ability for a beautiful turn of phrase. He was prolific with it, and his ability only increased as he got older. I consider him the greatest melodist.


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## JosefinaHW

I haven't been much of a Puccini fan, but if Gerald Finley keeps performing his pieces that might just be changing.

Another gorgeous performance by Gerald Finley! 'Just uploaded by Medici.TV Puccini, _Messa di Gloria_, Gerald Finley, Benjamin Bernheim (new to me), Antonio Pappano (I am grateful for all that he has done for CM)

This is a clip. I am about to watch the full performance.


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