# Scornworthy opinions wanted!



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Valued member Science is talking about scorn in another thread. I confess I don't totally understand him, but it might be fun to see what opinions would earn the most scorn in our hierarchical dominance-based classical music society at this very site. Statements needn't be sincere, merely scornworthy! Perhaps we could use the "Like this post" button as a scorn score? I'll start.

Frankly, I enjoy Michael Torke's music far more than Arnold Schoenberg's.

C'mon, let's press those "scorn" buttons!


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2016)

The internet is a technological advancement with a side of gruesome abomination.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I gave you a scorn point. Just one.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Modern music is garbage. 

Mozart sucks. 

The 1812 Overture is my favorite work.

Edit (how could I forget?): The behavior of classical music listeners is partially calculated to win the esteem of other listeners.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Eh? I don't see what's to scorn about any of that. Sorry.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Oh, that was a good one.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

It's hard to confess, but I do like Das Neujahrskonzert der Wiener Philharmoniker

Really


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Certainly scornworthy. I regret that I have but one vote.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

GioCar said:


> It's hard to confess, but I do like Das Neujahrskonzert der Wiener Philharmoniker
> 
> Really


The use of the German titles on an English board mitigates the scorn that would ordinarily receive - which is considerable: the Vienna Philharmonic's New Year's Concert online?


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## Abraham Lincoln (Oct 3, 2015)

*GLORIOUS MENDELSSOHN MASTER RACE*
Filthy Wagner peasants


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Valued member Science is talking about scorn in another thread. I confess I don't totally understand him, but it might be fun to see what opinions would earn the most scorn in our hierarchical dominance-based classical music society at this very site. Statements needn't be sincere, merely scornworthy! Perhaps we could use the "Like this post" button as a scorn score? I'll start.
> 
> Frankly, I enjoy Michael Torke's music far more than Arnold Schoenberg's.
> 
> C'mon, let's press those "scorn" buttons!


I'd love to scorn you but I don't even know who Michael Torke is, which I'm sure is very scorn-worthy.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2016)

Abraham Lincoln said:


> *GLORIOUS MENDELSSOHN MASTER RACE*
> Filthy Wagner peasants


You keep going on about that as if fascism is a bad thing.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2016)

Can I be the first person to use the word "opprobrium" ?


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Is that the Irish for "probrium"?


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Is that the Irish for "probrium"?


Opprobably.  .


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

dogen said:


> I'd love to scorn you but I don't even know who Michael Torke is, which I'm sure is very scorn-worthy.


I think he was in The Monkees.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2016)

Dr Johnson said:


> Opprobably. .


Coat.

get it now


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

dogen said:


> Coat.
> 
> get it now


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I find the name Birtwistle somewhat amusing.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I usually listen to single movements rather than the whole work.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Dim7 said:


> I usually listen to single movements rather than the whole work.


Same here, especially with longer pieces. If a day had 48 hours I would listen more often to the entire work.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Dim7 said:


> I usually listen to single movements rather than the whole work.


You can not be serious?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Andrew Lloyd Webber's Requiem is actually pretty decent.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

T. S. Eliot is a hack.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Blancrocher said:


> I find the name Birtwistle somewhat amusing.


What about musicians playing the doodlesack and the sackbut?


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

MarkW said:


> T. S. Eliot is a hack.


Jug jug jug tereu tereu!

What, you don't think it's genius to string together a lot of quotations from other writers in six languages?


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Dang, I'm surprised this one hasn't been mentioned yet! _I listen to classical music because I like it, and not to impress anyone!_ But I think that's more along the lines of "unbelievable".

Scorn-worthy? I listen to atonal music because I like it.

The Schoenberg piano concerto beats Rachmaninoff's third (an atrocity), Schumann's, and Grieg's all combined.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I don't like any classical music. I've just been looking for approval. Sorry.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

science said:


> The use of the German titles on an English board mitigates the scorn that would ordinarily receive - which is considerable: the Vienna Philharmonic's New Year's Concert online?


Oh, I missed that! I remember you were once a bit upset regarding the Vienna New Year's Concert and your wife (I deliberately chose that "scornworthy" example) but I didn't know that thread.
Anyway I really like that concert, it's a wonderful way to begin the new year. If I'm not travelling (it often occurs in that period) I never miss the TV broadcast.

PS I'm winning the contest so far: 4 likes/scorn points


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I believe that the number of likes a post receives is a positive indicator of its quality.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Blancrocher said:


> I believe that the number of likes a post receives is a positive indicator of its quality.


I like your post :tiphat:


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

I love Herbert von Karajan, and think he is the greatest conductor of the 20th century. 
My favorite composer is Tchaikovsky. 
AND, I especially love Karajan conducting Tchaikovsky. 
Both these guys get scorned hard on here. So I paired 'em up!


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> I usually listen to single movements rather than the whole work.


I sometimes take part of a movement, loop it, add percussion and jump up and down.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

I prefer Elmer Bernstein 's compositions over Leonard's. Certainly that must be scornworthy.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2016)

Mozart lived too long.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Robert Schumann's life was more interesting than any of his music


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Antiquarian said:


> I prefer Elmer Bernstein 's compositions over Leonard's. Certainly that must be scornworthy.


I actually think this is the approved opinion.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2016)

Kontrapunctus said:


> Mozart lived too long.


As did Schubert.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I edit out those dreary exposition repeats from recordings of late Schubert works. Or is that works of the late Schubert?

Anyway, I do. Always.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

This entire thread is a pathetic attempt by a bunch of pompous, pseudo-intellectual losers to convince each other, and themselves, that they have some sort of highly developed knowledge and sophistication that somehow sets them above ordinary folk, with a series of not very funny or clever classical music references.
Those who, like me, actually do possess a highly developed knowledge and sophistication when it comes to classical music, and music generally, and art generally, and everything generally, are secure in their brilliance and profundity and have no need to participate in an embarrassing thread like this. That's why I am not going to add a post to this thread. After this one.
I mean, I've actually _met_ Michael Torke.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

fluteman said:


> I mean, I've actually _met_ Michael Torke.


Did you ask him about his time in the Monkees?


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Gordontrek said:


> I love Herbert von Karajan, and think he is the greatest conductor of the 20th century.


Amen! (But I didn't know this was an outrage...)

One more thing for me - I don't like Rubinstein's interpretation of the Chopin nocturnes. After spending two years with them, I started to explore other artists' recordings and found that they gave the nocturnes less methodological accuracy and more life.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

My opinions are too valuable to be wasted in this thread.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Dim7 said:


> I usually listen to single movements rather than the whole work.


I still do this. Sometimes worse than that, I just sample the sections that I want to hear at any given moment.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Johann Strauss family are the true 2nd Viennese School not the Berg/Webern one [the 3rd]. And the true 2nd Viennese School is much much better than the 3rd Viennese School!


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Dr Johnson said:


> Did you ask him about his time in the Monkees?


They only chatted for a minute on a train platform, as they were waiting for the Last Train to Clarksville


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

I like Richard Wagner ideas more than Webern and Shoenberg's music!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I like Offenbach more than Wagner.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Sadly, I don't see anything wrong with most of these opinions.

And Ravel's Bolero remains my favorite composition.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

I think Monteverdi and Rameau are on the same level as J.S. Bach. Apparently that's sacrilege to some people.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I really admire some composers for writing the same works over and over again -- and getting away with it! Won't mention any names, but if I did they'd be Vivaldi and Haydn.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Gordontrek said:


> I love Herbert von Karajan, and think he is the greatest conductor of the 20th century.
> My favorite composer is Tchaikovsky.
> AND, I especially love Karajan conducting Tchaikovsky.
> Both these guys get scorned hard on here. *So I paired 'em up!*


Any thoughts of trying to breed from them?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Chronochromie said:


> I think Monteverdi and Rameau are on the same level as J.S. Bach. Apparently that's sacrilege to some people.


Not to me. It's just faulty aural equipment.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Freddy Mercury did everything better than Prince.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Apart from being short or purple


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Dr Johnson said:


> Any thoughts of trying to breed from them?


Yep. Hoping to get a homosexual Nazi Buddhist who drives sports cars and writes awesome ballets.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> Not to me. It's just faulty aural equipment.


On your part, maybe! But seriously, it's that pesky Austro-German absolute musical supremacy myth, I can tell you that.


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## Adamus (Aug 30, 2015)

...Dutch, direct and nearly westfrisian...


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

clavichorder said:


> I like Offenbach more than Wagner.


You're in good company! So did Nietzsche.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

I prefer Hegel's masterpieces over Nietzsche's babbling. But Spengler's books were the best.

Now with these 3 comments I've already won this thread!


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> You're in good company! So did Nietzsche.


Well it depends on the timeframe but... After a certain point, yes.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Reincarnation does occur and Schoenberg was the reincarnation of Beethoven allowing Beethoven to finally compose the music he had intended to if he had had normal hearing.


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

dogen said:


> I'd love to scorn you but I don't even know who Michael Torke is, which I'm sure is very scorn-worthy.


Like, the composer of "Torkewrench"...


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Arsakes said:


> I prefer Hegel's masterpieces over Nietzsche's babbling. But Spengler's books were the best.


I think Spengler's best work was with the Ghostbusters.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Gordontrek said:


> I love Herbert von Karajan, and think he is the greatest conductor of the 20th century.
> My favorite composer is Tchaikovsky.
> AND, I especially love Karajan conducting Tchaikovsky.
> Both these guys get scorned hard on here. So I paired 'em up!


Rightly so, they are both vastly overrated... Karajan in particular sucks and never should have been allowed dominion over any orchestra.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Kontrapunctus said:


> Mozart lived too long.


That's what Gould thought as well. The greatest performer of Mozart.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Cosmos said:


> Robert Schumann's life was more interesting than any of his music


All jokes aside this is how I truly feel.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

If Schumann had spent less time keeping Clara pregnant and paid more attention to his music, then it might have been better.

(I have trouble keeping a straight face with this sort of thing. I love Schumann.)


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

clavichorder said:


> I like Offenbach more than Wagner.


jokes aside, i like them both equally, their my favorites, then come other composers.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I would trade the entire output of Vivaldi for Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries .


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I legitimately think Offenbach was a really good composer. No sarcasm. Among the best in his field, and always recognizable.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

superhorn said:


> I would trade the entire output of Vivaldi for Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries .


Oh my goodness. Vivaldi's beautiful baroque melodies relegated to such a crass trade? Germanic mythological female warriors no less!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> I legitimately think Offenbach was a really good composer. No sarcasm. Among the best in his field, and always recognizable.


Yes, I don't know who wrote better Can-cans. Quite droll.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

I'm not sure all people adhere to the special set of shoulds of this thread. Always the same problem with people. They don't match with rules. Robots - coming soon - might be the solution to that.

For humans this thread would be much easier to interpret if we simply had a dislike button to scorn. I find it discriminatory that we must constantly suppress our feelings of disgust, hate, anger and so forth. Is this some sort of Hippie Forum?


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## Abraham Lincoln (Oct 3, 2015)

Gordontrek said:


> Yep. Hoping to get a homosexual Nazi Buddhist who drives sports cars and writes awesome ballets.


A possible relative of Felix Mendelssohn says that genetics doesn't work like that. Dominant and recessive genes need to be taken into account.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Richard8655 said:


> Oh my goodness. Vivaldi's beautiful baroque melodies relegated to such a crass trade? Germanic mythological female warriors no less!


And let's not forget an entire empire has been created around Vivaldi's pithy melodies: US Public Classical Radio.

However, even if Vivaldi never existed, there would have always been Telemann.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2016)

Richard8655 said:


> Oh my goodness. Vivaldi's beautiful baroque melodies relegated to such a crass trade? Germanic mythological female warriors no less!


I don't know about fragmenting a Wagner opera into pointless little orchestral miniatures, but I am quite sure I would trade Vivaldi for a decent steak.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

hpowders said:


> And let's not forget an entire empire has been created around Vivaldi's pithy melodies: US Public Classical Radio.
> 
> However, even if Vivaldi never existed, there would have always been Telemann.


True, American public radio is enamored by Vivaldi for some reason and his music has gotten somewhat overplayed. Bach fans have recently come down on him, mostly because he doesn't sound like Bach methinks. But nevertheless, his melodic and compositional originality is top tier in my opinion.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Strauss's output, on the whole, is more interesting than Debussy's even if the latter has a number of works I count amongst my favorites.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Many complain that The Four Seasons are overplayed. Personally I think I don't hear them enough. Actually I do rarely hear them either on the radio or from my collection, but if I heard them much more, I'd love each moment.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

mmsbls said:


> Many complain that The Four Seasons are overplayed. Personally I think I don't hear them enough. Actually I do rarely hear them either on the radio or from my collection, but if I heard them much more, I'd love each moment.


I think it comes in periods some times the four seasons come like every week then there is nothing for a long time.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

bz3 said:


> Strauss's output, on the whole, is more interesting than Debussy's even if the latter has a number of works I count amongst my favorites.


This would be more scornworthy with a judicious placement of the word "Johann".


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

mmsbls said:


> Many complain that The Four Seasons are overplayed. Personally I think I don't hear them enough. Actually I do rarely hear them either on the radio or from my collection, but if I heard them much more, I'd love each moment.


Yeah, they are extremely good. Nothing exists like them, and when I revisit them after forgetting about them for a while, I always find a lot to appreciate.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

As long as we are being sincere, this isn't exactly scorn worthy, but most people don't seem to get it. A few people do, but they are more often than not, French. Emmanuel Chabrier was one of the greatest French composers of the 19th century. Extremely refreshing and witty music, a few jewel like piano miniatures. Ravel seemed to understand this well.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Chabrier was moderately nuts, near as I can tell. That condition can inspire composition. Was it the extract of wormwood, you think?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Richard8655 said:


> True, American public radio is enamored by Vivaldi for some reason and his music has gotten somewhat overplayed. Bach fans have recently come down on him, mostly because he doesn't sound like Bach methinks. But nevertheless, his melodic and compositional originality is top tier in my opinion.


If I was looking for a classical FM announcing job, I would steer clear of Public Radio and apply to a station that plays a lot of Mahler, Bruckner and Wagner operas. Wouldn't have to work so hard.

In NYC, there used to be such a station in days of yesteryear, the terribly missed WNCN, a real music lover's station. One day I woke up, turned it on and was greeted by "Roll Over Beethoven." So sad. As if there weren't enough mainstream Rock stations already!


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" 

Highly esteemed Tc colleague KenOC,

Please be very careful about who/what you scorn, 'cause you might be faced with a world of hurt.

Take care...:tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I work with about a dozen people who are of similar age to me, mid 40's to early fifties. Their musical world starts in 1981 and ends in 1989, and its limited to pop music. In fact, one of my colleagues said to me once "you know, the music from the '80s really was the best wasn't it?" 

Should their limited musical world be scorned? Or should I be scorned for being a snob and criticizing their musical tastes.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2016)

senza sordino said:


> I work with about a dozen people who are of similar age to me, mid 40's to early fifties. Their musical world starts in 1981 and ends in 1989, and its limited to pop music. In fact, one of my colleagues said to me once "you know, the music from the '80s really was the best wasn't it?"
> 
> Should their limited musical world be scorned? Or should I be scorned for being a snob and criticizing their musical tastes.


The vast majority of the population does not think much of listenable music existing before 1950. Should it be scorned? Not unless they scorn you first


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

senza sordino said:


> I work with about a dozen people who are of similar age to me, mid 40's to early fifties. Their musical world starts in 1981 and ends in 1989, and its limited to pop music. In fact, one of my colleagues said to me once "you know, the music from the '80s really was the best wasn't it?"
> 
> Should their limited musical world be scorned? Or should I be scorned for being a snob and criticizing their musical tastes.


They should be scorned, certainly. The musical world began in 1964 and ended 1973. Everybody knows that.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

senza sordino said:


> I work with about a dozen people who are of similar age to me, mid 40's to early fifties. Their musical world starts in 1981 and ends in 1989, and its limited to pop music. In fact, one of my colleagues said to me once "you know, the music from the '80s really was the best wasn't it?"
> 
> Should their limited musical world be scorned? Or should I be scorned for being a snob and criticizing their musical tastes.


But they are correct! Consider what was written and performed in the 80s...
Mahler's 1st symphony
Bruckner's 7th & 8th symphonies
Verdi's Otello
...and the list goes on...


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

senza sordino said:


> I work with about a dozen people who are of similar age to me, mid 40's to early fifties. Their musical world starts in 1981 and ends in 1989, and its limited to pop music. In fact, one of my colleagues said to me once "you know, the music from the '80s really was the best wasn't it?"
> 
> Should their limited musical world be scorned? Or should I be scorned for being a snob and criticizing their musical tastes.


I would say instead of criticize, enlighten them by sharing your appreciation and enjoyment of classical... more of an invitation. Many have never been exposed. (Looks like Becca's on to something about the 80's  )


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Becca said:


> But they are correct! Consider what was written and performed in the 80s...
> Mahler's 1st symphony
> Bruckner's 7th & 8th symphonies
> Verdi's Otello
> ...and the list goes on...


That's a good one! I've used that joke before, except they looked at me as if I were an alien, I said the names Mahler, Verdi and Dvorak and no one at work had heard these names before, they thought I was speaking a foreign language.

I play music in my classroom when I stay after school to work. If anyone else stays in the building they can sometimes hear my music, I can crank it up sometimes. So my colleagues have heard Mahler and Dvorak if only because I play it. But I find I rather amazing that it is a whole world of classical music is out there, and they have no idea how vast, diverse and rich that world of music is. I have met people who have never heard of Bach, I don't mean never heard his music, but have never of the guy!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

senza sordino said:


> I find I rather amazing that it is a whole world of classical music is out there, and they have no idea how vast, diverse and rich that world of music is.


That's how everything is: cell biology, surfing, materials technology, role playing games, Central Asian history, Chinese traditional religion, arctic lifestyles, foreign policy, Indian food, scuba diving, Byzantine theology, civil engineering, intellectual property law, pottery, auto racing, mountain climbing, spy fiction, archaeology, rare genomic diseases....


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

I'm not so sure how analogous that is. Those are very specific and esoteric skills, hobbies, studies, and specialities. Music however is a universal language immediately accessible and understood by everyone. It's fairly easy experience classical music... no scuba diving gear needed  .


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Are we neglecting scornworthiness? I only buy works with nicknames, because I can remember them.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Are we neglecting scornworthiness? I only buy works with nicknames, because I can remember them.


That seems an eminently reasonable strategy.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I only buy works which don't have nicknames so that I have an excuse for not remembering them. If I hear an unfamiliar work, I can say, without mentioning a composer's name, 'ohh that is the 2nd symphony' and am safe in the knowledge that I have about a 10% chance of being correct. The odds for most piano and violin concertos are significantly greater.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Opera? Oh yeah . . . Puccini!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

amfortas said:


> Opera? Oh yeah . . . Puccini!


Is he better than Helmut Lotti?


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2016)

I play symphony box sets on Random mode.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

dogen said:


> I play symphony box sets on Random mode.


I almost choked laughing at that.

No, really - I don't know why it strikes me as absurd. Makes me want to try it.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm glad to see that the quality of posting on the forum is presently so high that scornworthy opinions need to be deliberately solicited.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

dogen said:


> I play symphony box sets on Random mode.


Oh, well done. That is magnificent!


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## Abraham Lincoln (Oct 3, 2015)

Bach was asterisks.


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