# Am I the only one to hear the following?



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Did Wagner subliminally hear:

1. The beginning of the Rheingold prelude: Taps

2. The Parsifal Vorspiel: (after the first 10 notes or so suddenly it sounds like "hallowed be thy name" from the Our Father)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Since Malotte wrote "The Lord's Prayer" in 1935, Wagner couldn't have heard it. Taps? Doubtful.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

nina foresti said:


> Did Wagner subliminally hear:
> 
> 1. The beginning of the Rheingold prelude: Taps
> 
> ...


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> nina foresti said:
> 
> 
> > Did Wagner subliminally hear:
> ...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> wkasimer said:
> 
> 
> > I was referring to "Our Father who art in heaven, HALLOWED BE THY NAME..." etc.
> ...


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> nina foresti said:
> 
> 
> > The unaccompanied, almost arrhythmic opening melody of _Parsifal_ is really influenced by Gregorian chant and is meant to evoke a mood of archaic mysticism (with an infusion of Romantic pathos in its intense rise and fall). Its final phrase ends on the mediant tone rather than the tonic note, suggesting the modality of medieval music. I'll bet that exact phrase can be found in a number of chant melodies. The opera is full of consciously employed references to "ancient" music.
> ...


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

What's "Taps"? (Pardon my ignorance.)


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Military bugle music played at dusk and at military funerals.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

In the middle of the great overture to _Tannhäuser,_ once the Venusberg music begins, there is a rising sequence beginning around 7:30 in the 25-minute overture, mostly in the strings and woodwinds, that has a scale F-sharp rising stepwise to D, G rising stepwise to E, A rising stepwise to F, and every time I hear it I get "fa, a longlong way to run, tea, a drink with jam and bread, la, a note to follow so," Maria von Trapp rising from the grave of Wagner. I really, really wish I had never heard that song, since I like the overture to _Tannhäuser_ far more!

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

I should clarify the 25 minutes is the Overture and Venusberg Music, as here (and my goodness this is gorgeous music)!:






Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

You're not the only one. I hear it too and it's hard to forget once you notice. It's chromatically similar to the _Sound of Music_, only Wagner climbed the Matterhorn first. 






PS. I grew up loving this musical. I thought Julie Andrews really knew how to sing her Wagner.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Barelytenor said:


> In the middle of the great overture to _Tannhäuser,_ once the Venusberg music begins, there is a rising sequence beginning around 7:30 in the 25-minute overture, mostly in the strings and woodwinds, that has a scale F-sharp rising stepwise to D, G rising stepwise to E, A rising stepwise to F, and every time I hear it I get "fa, a longlong way to run, tea, a drink with jam and bread, la, a note to follow so," Maria von Trapp rising from the grave of Wagner. I really, really wish I had never heard that song, since I like the overture to _Tannhäuser_ far more!
> 
> Kind regards, :tiphat:
> 
> George


Snap, I've heard that too! (I'm glad I'm not the only one!)

N.

P.S. Funnily enough I recently bought a CD of Ernestine Schumann-Heink and she performs not only Erda's monologue from Rheingold, but also 'Taps'!

Taps (like a lot of military bugle/trumpet music) is based on arpeggios, as is the prelude to Rheingold, however I can't really hear a similarity between the two. There are a few motives in the Ring which are based on rising arpeggios and Taps therefore resembles the Sword motive. That doesn't mean that either borrowed from the other (much music is based on rising arpeggios), but it's a nice coincidence that it reminds two of us of two different moments in the same opera.

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

How about Phantom of the Opera's "Past the point of no return, no backward glances. _The games we've played till now are at an end..."_
sounds like Mimi's last act in Boheme of "Sono andate fingeva di dormire, _perche voi con te sola restare"._ 
(the words in italics)
Compliments of Andrew Webber.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> How about Phantom of the Opera's "Past the point of no return, no backward glances. _The games we've played till now are at an end..."_
> sounds like Mimi's last act in Boheme of "Sono andate fingeva di dormire, _perche voi con te sola restare"._
> (the words in italics)
> Compliments of Andrew Webber.


There's also a bit from Fanciulla del West in _Music of the Night_. Lloyd Webber is known for having used little moments from Puccini's operas in his musicals, there was even a court case about it (Webber settled out of court).

Actually it would seem that Webber may not have composed much original music at all:





As the British commedian Paul Whitehouse once said, La Boheme is the perfect opera, it's the type of thing Lloyd Webber would like to write and probably will!

N.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

The song _Jake the Peg_ seems to quote from _La Boheme_. "Wherever I go through rain and snow, the people always let me know" sounds like - and roughly echoes the meaning of - Musetta's "Quando m'en vo soletta per la via, la gente sosta e mira".





 (Jake the Peg)





 (Musetta)


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> The song _Jake the Peg_ seems to quote from _La Boheme_. "Wherever I go through rain and snow, the people always let me know" sounds like - and roughly echoes the meaning of - Musetta's "Quando m'en vo soletta per la via, la gente sosta e mira".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I assume this is a joke? There's no similarity (other than in the words).

N.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

The Conte said:


> I assume this is a joke? There's no similarity (other than in the words).


No joke - adjusting for tempo, I hear close similarities in the melodies at the point those phrases are sung. I'd sing it for you, but I don't know how to attach sound files.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

No comment!!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

In Act II of _Die Walküre_, as Sieglinde awakens from a dream, we hear the orchestra play a short passage almost identical to a main theme in Liszt's Faust symphony.

While a story arose that Wagner acknowledged, and Liszt approved, this borrowing, in reality the two works were composed at the same time, hundreds of miles apart. There's speculation that both men may have been influenced by a theme from one of Schubert's piano sonatas.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mahler borrows a snippet from the last movement of Brahms' 2nd Symphony to open his own 1st - mood, mystery, and all!

Brahms (at 5:36)
Mahler


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

amfortas said:


> In Act II of _Die Walküre_, as Sieglinde awakens from a dream, we hear the orchestra play a short passage almost identical to a main theme in Liszt's Faust symphony.
> 
> While a story arose that Wagner acknowledged, and Liszt approved, this borrowing, in reality the two works were composed at the same time, hundreds of miles apart. There's speculation that both men may have been influenced by a theme from one of Schubert's piano sonatas.


Indeed. It was Schubert's B-flat Sonata.


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