# Vaughan Williams Or Schoenberg?



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Whose music do you prefer? Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872-1958) or Arnold Schoenberg (1874-1951)? Both were near contemporaries of each other, but historically taking quite a different path of musical development.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I do enjoy some pieces of music by RVW. He is not a composer I listen to very often but I do see his idiom as something important contributing to English sensibility during the two world wars. His music was reflective of those turbulent periods.

I therefore chose RVW.


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

Hard to compare really since, as you say, they both ploughed different furrows. I don't like Schoenberg's atonal music - too reminiscent of Hammer Horrors, and his tonal pieces don't cut the mustard for me when compared to VW's great symphonies and choral works.


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## Daniel Atkinson (Dec 31, 2016)

I like you more ArtMusic. You're soft and cuddly, you never say anything mean. You're a perfect specimen of human creation, irresistible. Even straight men want you, come here you lug :kiss:



Daniel (not at all sick of your stupid, pointless, attention-seeking polls)


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

David Phillips said:


> Hard to compare really since, as you say, they both ploughed different furrows. I don't like Schoenberg's atonal music - too reminiscent of Hammer Horrors, and his tonal pieces don't cut the mustard for me when compared to VW's great symphonies and choral works.


Yes, VW's symphonies are masterpieces of 20th century symphonic output.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Daniel Atkinson said:


> I like you more ArtMusic. You're soft and cuddly, you never say anything mean. You're a perfect specimen of human creation, irresistible. Even straight men want you, come here you lug :kiss:
> 
> Daniel (not at all sick of your stupid, pointless, attention-seeking polls)


Thanks! 

Do you enjoy VW's music?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> Whose music do you prefer? Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872-1958) or Arnold Schoenberg (1874-1951)? Both were near contemporaries of each other, but historically taking quite a different path of musical development.


Aren't you getting tired of using Schoenberg so often? I recommend switching to Stockhausen.

Another vote here for Vaughan Williams. He's not a desert island name for me, but I have much affection for his chamber music, concertos, choral works and symphonies.


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## Daniel Atkinson (Dec 31, 2016)

ArtMusic said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Do you enjoy VW's music?


It wasn't a compliment

No I do not enjoy the lazy, unoriginal music of Vaughan Williams

Please stop making these pathetic 'vs Schoenberg" polls

Daniel


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Not close for me. Schoenberg is much more stimulating and interesting to my brain than the other dude.

I agree with the above poster. The music of Vaughn Williams is lazy, conservative and out of touch with the times.

I also agree with what's the point of comparing every composer in existance to Schoenberg?


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Daniel Atkinson said:


> No I do not enjoy the lazy, unoriginal music of Vaughan Williamsl


If not for stuff like this thread, I bet you'd give Vaughan Williams a fair chance, and realize he's actually pretty good! (No Schoenberg though.) But I sympathize.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Williams wrote a very good symphony cycle. Only 1 I do not care for is his 1st.


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## Daniel Atkinson (Dec 31, 2016)

isorhythm said:


> If not for stuff like this thread, I bet you'd give Vaughan Williams a fair chance, and realize he's actually pretty good! (No Schoenberg though.) But I sympathize.


Yes, I have heard his symphony cycle, I've got the box and his concertos, ballets those stupid choral works. I don't like it at all, he's super-conservative. Schoenberg was conservative too but at least he had the nerve to compose with a new harmonic language.

I do not like Vaughan Williams, I do not like ArtMusic's pathetic polls. I'm fed up

Daniel


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

What next? Schoenberg vs Tylman Susato? Schoenberg vs Hildegard von Bingen?

Enough already.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Depends how I feel on the day. Sometimes Schoenberg fits the bill other times Vaughan Williams is more appropriate.

As for comparisons Vaughan Williams vs Arnold Bax or William Walton would have been nearer the mark. Comparing against Schoenberg is too easy. 

On this forum it's like asking if you want to stroke a kitten or be friends with Hitler.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Becca said:


> What next? Schoenberg vs Tylman Susato? Schoenberg vs Hildegard von Bingen?
> 
> Enough already.


Somebody needs to find someone Schoenberg can beat maybe John Cage?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I for one, on giving it serious thought, find this poll challenging in the extreme. Food for thought. 

Vaughan Williams has always been among my favorite composers. I imagine no one ever knew quite what to expect during a premiere of one of his works. One work may be pastoral, the next jagged edged with spiky rhythms and ambiguous tonality, the next mysterious and ethereal. Vaughan Williams seemed to reinvent himself as often as David Bowie. But for some reason I seldom listen to RVW lately. I binge more on Schoenberg.

Does that mean I "prefer" Schoenberg currently? Having recently (within the past couple of years) "gotten" Schoenberg and many other non-common practice composers, am I just trying to make up for lost time? Or have they supplanted Vaughan Williams' lofty position? I have no idea. And frankly that's troubling. It's as though I can't pin down what I like any more. I like so much more than I once did, but do I like any of it as passionately as I once did? 

That way lies madness. I will guess instead of overthinking. I'm guessing if I eventually come home to Vaughan Williams I will love his work all over again, and so, much as I love some Schoenberg, I'm still choosing RVW when considering a lifetime of appreciation.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Seems to me what we need is Schoenberg versus Beethoven, presented as a boxing match. The Bonn Bruiser matched up against Arnold “The Serializer” Schoenbergegger. You’d have to call the round-by-round results for your vote to count. :lol:


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I really do not care for polls like this because at times they become like a contest. 90% of the time one can guess who will eventually win. Vaughn Williams will probably win and so what?

I happen to like them both.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

arpeggio said:


> I really do not care for polls like this because at times they become like a contest. 90% one can guess who will eventually win. Vaughn Williams will probably win and so what?


If the choice is carefully made, it is a way for the OP to have their opinion validated. In other words it is meaningless.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Like both, but VW better. His Symphonies 2 thru 5 are really engaging. His music is very poetic to me, although Symphony 4 packs a big punch in sonics.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Vaughn Williams really wasn't that conservative. He was influenced a lot by Ravel and you can hear some impressionistic strokes in his music. None of his symphonies sound like something you would hear in the 19th century, except maybe #1. Out of the two composers, Elgar was much more conservative (and about 20 years older so maybe that's why).


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Seems to me what we need is Schoenberg versus Beethoven, presented as a boxing match. The Bonn Bruiser matched up against Arnold "The Serializer" Schoenbergegger. You'd have to call the round-by-round results for your vote to count. :lol:


The serial monotonist will just stand there and take punches while stony-faced. Then when Beethoven gets tired Schoenberg will tell him how much he loves his music. At that point Beethoven will be defeated through sheer exhausted confusion.


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## Ziggabea (Apr 5, 2017)

violadude said:


> Vaughn Williams really wasn't that conservative. He was influenced a lot by Ravel and you can hear some impressionistic strokes in his music. None of his symphonies sound like something you would hear in the 19th century, except maybe #1. Out of the two composers, Elgar was much more conservative (and about 20 years older so maybe that's why).


They also don't belong in the 20th century either


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

hpowders said:


> ....
> I also agree with what's the point of comparing every composer in existance to Schoenberg?


I have not. I have compared Ralph Vaughan Williams because they were historical contemporaries of each other but they wrote very different music. Therefore it makes interesting comparison because they both went through the horrors of two World Wars, huge social change and yet their music differed. If music reflects the place in which we live to various extent, it makes a good comparison and a point of study *why* these two contemporaries wrote differently. The comparison is valid. (As was my other poll comparing Sibelius with Schoenberg). The more I learn about atonal music, the more comparisons should be made concerning what else was happening with atonal music during the time.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Vaughn Williams any day of the week.


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## Gradeaundera (Jun 30, 2016)

ArtMusic said:


> I have not. I have compared Ralph Vaughan Williams because they were historical contemporaries of each other but they wrote very different music. Therefore it makes interesting comparison because they both went through the horrors of two World Wars, huge social change and yet their music differed. If music reflects the place in which we live to various extent, it makes a good comparison and a point of study *why* these two contemporaries wrote differently. The comparison is valid. (As was my other poll comparing Sibelius with Schoenberg). The more I learn about atonal music, the more comparisons should be made concerning what else was happening with atonal music during the time.


Completely ********


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> The more I learn about atonal music, the more comparisons should be made concerning what else was happening with atonal music during the time.


Why should the fact that YOU learn more about it mean that comparisons should be made?? The composers came from very different backgrounds, socially, economically and academically so it is hardly any wonder that their music differed.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> Whose music do you prefer? Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872-1958) or Arnold Schoenberg (1874-1951)? Both were near contemporaries of each other, but historically taking quite a different path of musical development.


_What_ in the .... !!!
I suspect I'll get around to answering this question round about the time I decide which I would rather eat: apples or oranges!


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

SONNET CLV said:


> _What_ in the .... !!!
> I suspect I'll get around to answering this question round about the time I decide which I would rather eat: apples or oranges!


Sounds like a good idea for a follow-up poll: do you prefer Schoenberg or oranges? :lol:


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Bettina said:


> Sounds like a good idea for a follow-up poll: do you prefer Schoenberg or oranges? :lol:


An orange Schoenberg would mean the composer got a bad "bottle tan", I suspect.

New poll: Do you prefer tanned composers, or the other kind?


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Can't say I've heard much of their music but so far my favorite pieces from both are pieces for strings: Tallis Fantasia and Verklarte Nacht


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2017)

ArtMusic said:


> Whose music do you prefer? Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872-1958) or Arnold Schoenberg (1874-1951)? Both were near contemporaries of each other, but historically taking quite a different path of musical development.


Wrong choice. I think what I suggested was _Sibelius _v VW (and not the car) not v Schoenberg.

(And 'Both were contemporaries of each other'...a redundant 'both' I think; sorry, the pedant in me is being irritated by SATs tests in the UK at the moment.)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think we have to pit Schoenberg against Aloysius Schlongmaier to give him a win.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm sorry. couldn't quite hear you. Can you please repeat, a little louder?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg Schoenberg


That's over 140 characters..


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Pugg said:


> That's over 140 characters..


Yeah a new record for me!


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Fortunately the OP makes it clear that the question is about personal preference, not some kind of value judgment, which makes it an easy one for me - Vaughan Williams every time.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Violadude: _"Vaughn Williams really wasn't that conservative. He was influenced a lot by Ravel and you can hear some impressionistic strokes in his music. None of his symphonies sound like something you would hear in the 19th century, except maybe #1."_



Ziggabea said:


> They also don't belong in the 20th century either


So what century do they belong in?

None of Vaughan Williams' symphonies sound like 19th-century music, not even the first.

Anything written in the 20th century and enjoyed by 20th-century audiences belongs in the 20th century.


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

One was a true genius who reinvented music theory and left compositions which are nothing short of visionary. One was an English pastoralist who composed 19th-century romantic music well into the 20th century. How is this a valid comparison? If you prefer safe, pretty music, go with RVW. If you're interested in growth and development of the art form, then AS.

This comparison reminds me of a quote by (IIRC) P.T. Barnum: "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you. If you really make them think, they'll hate you."

Flame suit on.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Omicron9 said:


> One was a true genius who reinvented music theory and left compositions which are nothing short of visionary. One was an English pastoralist who composed 19th-century romantic music well into the 20th century. How is this a valid comparison? If you prefer safe, pretty music, go with RVW. If you're interested in growth and development of the art form, then AS.
> 
> This comparison reminds me of a quote by (IIRC) P.T. Barnum: "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you. If you really make them think, they'll hate you."
> 
> Flame suit on.


It's so nice that you're " interested in growth and development of the art form." So am I. Nevertheless, when I listen to music I am listening to the music itself, not to some conception of musical history, and for the qualities of the music itself I listen more to Vaughan Williams than to Schoenberg. Is this something that's comprehensible in your world view, or do you explain it as a mere preference for "safe, pretty 19th-century music"?

VW wrote one symphony bearing the nickname "pastoral." So did Beethoven. It won't serve as a description of the music of either composer, unless one is too lazy - or prejudiced - to seek a more accurate description. The music of Vaughan Williams is actually diverse, original, and of superb quality, whether or not you consider him a "true genius."

Incidentally, I find nothing "unsafe" about Schoenberg; I don't equate the avoidance of irritation or indifference with safety. The idea that people prefer less "progressive" styles of art because they find them less "threatening" or "challenging" is a tired, condescending Modernist cliche and a feeble excuse for a lack of popular success.


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> It's so nice that you're " interested in growth and development of the art form." So am I. Nevertheless, when I listen to music I am listening to the music itself, not to some conception of musical history, and for the qualities of the music itself I listen more to Vaughan Williams than to Schoenberg. Is this something that's comprehensible in your world view, or do you explain it as a mere preference for "safe, pretty 19th-century music"?
> 
> VW wrote one symphony bearing the nickname "pastoral." So did Beethoven. It won't serve as a description of the music of either composer, unless one is too lazy - or prejudiced - to seek a more accurate description. The music of Vaughan Williams is actually diverse, original, and of superb quality, whether or not you consider him a "true genius."
> 
> Incidentally, I find nothing "unsafe" about Schoenberg; I don't equate the avoidance of irritation or indifference with safety. The idea that people prefer less "progressive" styles of art because they find them less "threatening" or "challenging" is a tired Modernist cliche and a feeble excuse for a lack of popular success.


Though I myself voted for Schoenberg in this poll, I agree with you here. The bashing of Vaughan Williams in defense of Schoenberg only displays a lack of sympathy and/or ignorance on the part of the basher of Vaughan William's own music, who was a worthy composer in his own right.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> I think we have to pit Schoenberg against Aloysius Schlongmaier to give him a win.


Schoenberg would win against Meyerbeer, which would be the big indication that this forum is in the year 2017 and not 1917.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

The more conservative composers such as RVW, Rachmaninoff, Sibelius and many others have just as much place in the 20th century as the more progressive ones. They found their own voice, created high quality music and, to my ears, still did new things compared to earlier music.
Change, novelty, innovation is important, but if you take this importance to its extremes then one should invent a new genre for every next piece... or you'll get vapid nonsense just for the sake of novelty (I will give no examples). More conservative and more progressive music can co-exist and one is not greater than the other by default. A perfectly reasonable point of view!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Omicron9 said:


> One was a true genius who reinvented music theory and left compositions which are nothing short of visionary. One was an English pastoralist who composed 19th-century romantic music well into the 20th century. How is this a valid comparison? If you prefer safe, pretty music, go with RVW. If you're interested in growth and development of the art form, then AS.
> 
> This comparison reminds me of a quote by (IIRC) P.T. Barnum: "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you. If you really make them think, they'll hate you."
> 
> Flame suit on.


I take it that you are unfamiliar with RVW's 4th, 6th, 7th or 9th symphonies or _Job_, and are unfamiliar with the background to the 3rd (Pastoral).


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

A gentle and friendly clarification:

Nothing was meant as RVW bashing; neither stated nor implied. I own many of his CDs and enjoy his music. Quite a lot, in fact. I just don't think it's a cogent comparison. I love AS's music for the music itself, not the theory. However, I also love what he did with music theory; he invented a whole new method of composition. Imagine if a painter discovered a whole new set of never-before-seen colors. Essentially, that's what AS did.

I've also seen far too many people wince and run at the very mention of words like "Schoenberg," "atonal," etc. without ever having heard his music. Fleeing from or bashing what you don't know never sits well with me.

Again, just not a cogent comparison. RVW vs. Britten maybe. Schoenberg vs. Webern maybe.

_*Again: all just my opinion. *_ You should be comfortable enough with your own opinions without feeling threatened by mine. I'm not threatened by your opinions. Isn't that what this forum is or should be? An exchange of ideas and opinions?


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Omicron9 said:


> I've also seen far too many people wince and run at the very mention of words like "Schoenberg," "atonal," etc. without ever having heard his music. Fleeing from or bashing what you don't know never sits well with me.


What about people who _have_ heard his music and _still_ wince or run away? (There seems to be this ongoing fantasy among some advocates of modern music that people will love it if they just listen to it. Rarely is it acknowledged that many, many people have listened to it and still don't care for it.)


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

^ I'm now going to wrap duct tape around my fingers t stop me from replying to the above and opening that can of worms again.......:tiphat:


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

JAS said:


> What about people who _have_ heard his music and _still_ wince or run away? (There seems to be this ongoing fantasy among some advocates of modern music that people will love it if they just listen to it. Rarely is it acknowledged that many, many people have listened to it and still don't care for it.)


I respect anyone of that opinion: that they've honestly given Schoenberg or any other composer a chance and still don't like it. But those were not the folks I described. (Side note: what constitutes "giving it a chance" is probably a whole topic for an entirely other thread.)

There are folks who have listened to RVW and don't like him, either.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Omicron9 said:


> I respect anyone of that opinion: that they've honestly given it a chance and still don't like it. But those were not the folks I described.


It was not clear that the existence of any other folks had been considered. (Personally, I don't think there are anywhere near as many of "the folks" you described as I did. )



Omicron9 said:


> There are folks who have listened to RVW and don't like him, either.


Probably true, but I suspect the response for RVW is more along the lines of "that doesn't really do anything for me," or "I am not sure that I would bother to listen to that again," and less "please turn that off and I promise you my first born child."


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

JAS said:


> It was not clear that the existence of any other folks had been considered. (Personally, I don't think there are anywhere near as many of "the folks" you described as I did. )
> 
> Probably true, but I suspect the response for RVW is more along the lines of "that doesn't really do anything for me," or "I am not sure that I would bother to listen to that again," and less "_*please turn that off and I promise you my first born child*._"


(emphasis added by me)

Where are these horrible, scary, threatening Schoenberg pieces to which you refer? I've never heard them, but I'm curious as to which you refer here.

I could imagine a reaction like that from perhaps Xenakis, but not AS.

In defense of Mr. Schoenberg, I submit this:


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Omicron9 said:


> Where are these horrible, scary, threatening Schoenberg pieces to which you refer? I've never heard them, but I'm curious as to which you refer here. I could imagine a reaction like that from perhaps Xenakis, but not AS.


Hyperbole, partly for humor, was intended . . . but you may have my first born to avoid a future encounter with the piece cited as "defense." (Yes, I have encountered much, much worse, but that is quite bad enough for me. Plus, I don't actually have a first born, and have no plans for one, so you may take instead my oldest brother's only child. That, I should perhaps admit for the sake of fair dealing, would be no bargain for you.)


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Well that was easy. VW by many miles


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Prokofiev was a modernist, and he disliked atonal. He felt there were more possibilities, more tension in tonal music, and that it is possible to be original with traditional structures, while atonal and chromatic music is like building on sand. Atonal music may have a broader palette, but may have a more limited variety of emotions that can be projected (continuing the colour analogy is like mixing a lot of colours and turning it into brown). The most expressive atonal music to me that I've heard still have some tonal elements.

Schoenberg to me is still undeniably expressive to a certain extent, but it is achieved in dynamics and rhythms moreso than tones, while Vaughan Williams makes use of all these ingredients to my ears.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I started out prejudiced against both of them; Schoenberg because I thought he was Brahms with wrong notes, and RVW because I thought he belonged in a pasture. I have corrected my mistake, and I now have respectable CD stacks of both of their music.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Manxfeeder said:


> I started out prejudiced against both of them; Schoenberg because I thought he was Brahms with wrong notes, and *RVW because I thought he belonged in a pasture.* I have corrected my mistake, and I now have respectable CD stacks of both of their music.


VW was not a man to be cowed.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> VW was not a man to be cowed.


But then Arnold wasn't a man to tolerate being schoened either...


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Tallisman said:


> Well that was easy. VW by many miles


I'd say by light-years 

I prefer the heavenly, well-crafted, glorious, gorgeous and *never boring* music by VW to that by Schoenberg.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

hpowders said:


> I agree with the above poster. The music of Vaughn Williams is lazy, conservative and out of touch with the times.


Lazy?: Definitely not.
Conservative?: Yes.
Out of touch with the times?: Perhaps, but I care not. RVW wrote some glorious music that perfectly captures a very British spirit and sensibility at a specific time in its history. Beautiful music that evokes landscapes and moods as vividly as his deserves listening to no matter when it was written.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Taplow said:


> Lazy?: Definitely not.
> Conservative?: Yes.
> Out of touch with the times?: Perhaps, but I care not. RVW wrote some glorious music that perfectly captures a very British spirit and sensibility at a specific time in its history. Beautiful music that evokes landscapes and moods as vividly as his deserves listening to no matter when it was written.


Very well put, VW's music is factually not lazy. He crafted his music as well as any before him.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Taplow said:


> Lazy?: Definitely not.
> Conservative?: Yes.
> Out of touch with the times?: Perhaps, but I care not. RVW wrote some glorious music that perfectly captures a very British spirit and sensibility at a specific time in its history. Beautiful music that evokes landscapes and moods as vividly as his deserves listening to no matter when it was written.


Conservative? What was he conserving?

There's far more to VW than beautiful evocation of landscapes. No one did that better, certainly, but he was a modern composer, interested like his contemporary Bartok in folk music and equally dedicated to documenting it and incorporating its distinctive features into a personal style that utilized polytonal and modal harmony and evolved far from early influences that included Elgar and Ravel.

For the life of me I cannot understand why every early 20th-century composer who isn't a follower of Schoenberg, Stravinsky or Bartok - a number which includes more composers than it excludes - is accused of being "out of touch with the times." People who say such things need to rethink the nature of "the times."


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Conservative? What was he conserving?
> 
> There's far more to VW than beautiful evocation of landscapes.


Quite true. There are, for instance, the cows. :devil:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Quite true. There are, for instance, the cows. :devil:


There's too much bull in this pasture. But none in Vaughan Williams.


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## Abdel ove Allhan (Jun 19, 2014)

Daniel Atkinson said:


> I like you more ArtMusic. You're soft and cuddly, you never say anything mean. You're a perfect specimen of human creation, irresistible. Even straight men want you, come here you lug 💋
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel (not at all sick of your stupid, pointless, attention-seeking polls)


Cynical much? Twentysomething?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

That was an easy choice: Vaughn Williams


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## Doublestring (Sep 3, 2014)

Schoenberg is my No. 9 of all times. RVW is my No. 99. They're hardly in the same league. Music history wouldn't be the same without Schoenberg.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Vaughan Williams by 20 lengths.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Easy. Vaughan Williams by a few million lightyears, and he is not even one of my favorite composers.


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## hoodjem (Feb 23, 2019)

I listen to RVW all the time. One of my favorites.

Schonberg I respect, but listen only to the late Romantic pieces, when at all.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

As much as I love Vaughan Williams, I chose Schoenberg who I consider one of the most intriguing composers of the 20th Century. Of course, I love his music and I love all periods of it: Late-Romanticism, Free Atonality and Serialism. One thing people do not understand is that Schoenberg never actually fully abandoned tonality --- this is a myth. Anyway, long live Arnie!

For the record, I LOVE Vaughan Williams. His symphonies, _Job_, the _Concerto for Two Pianos_, _Violin Sonata No. 2_, _String Quartet No. 2_, _The Lark Ascending_, _Tallis Fantasia_, _Five Mystical Songs_, _Dona Nobis Pacem_, _Riders to the Sea_, _Partita for Double String Orchestra_, _Flos campi_ et. al. are all works I adore and love to the core. I couldn't imagine my life without any of these works.

The reality is both composers are in my 'Top 20', but Schoenberg just edges out RVW for the sheer breadth of his oeuvre and the weird, but marvelous feeling I get when listening to his music. There's quite simply nothing like it.


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## Lisztianwagner (2 mo ago)

Neo Romanza said:


> As much as I love Vaughan Williams, I chose Schoenberg who I consider one of the most intriguing composers of the 20th Century. Of course, I love his music and I love all periods of it: Late-Romanticism, Free Atonality and Serialism. One thing people do not understand is that Schoenberg never actually fully abandoned tonality --- this is a myth. Anyway, long live Arnie!
> 
> For the record, I LOVE Vaughan Williams. His symphonies, _Job_, the _Concerto for Two Pianos_, _Violin Sonata No. 2_, _String Quartet No. 2_, _The Lark Ascending_, _Tallis Fantasia_, _Five Mystical Songs_, _Dona Nobis Pacem_, _Riders to the Sea_, _Partita for Double String Orchestra_, _Flos campi_ et. al. are all works I adore and love to the core. I couldn't imagine my life without any of these works.
> 
> The reality is both composers are in my 'Top 20', but Schoenberg just edges out RVW for the sheer breadth of his oeuvre and the weird, but marvelous feeling I get when listening to his music. There's quite simply nothing like it.


Well said!! That's true he never fully abandoned tonality, Schönberg himself spoke about a longing to sometimes return to write tonal music that was always powerful in him, a clear example is the _Suite im alten Stile _(but also in some of his mature dodecaphonic pieces, like the _Piano Concerto_, the twelve-tone method is not applied very strictly)_; _though it's very interesting that he didn't simply come back to tonality, he always experimented new points of view of the tonal music. 

About the question, they're very different to compare; I love Vaughan Williams' works very much, but Schönberg is one of my favourite composers, so my vote is for him.


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