# Frank Martin



## Sid James

*Frank Martin* (1890 - 1974) was a Swiss composer, who lived a large part of his life in the Netherlands.

Martin developed his mature style based on a very personal use of Arnold Schoenberg's twelve tone technique, having become interested in this around 1932, but did not abandon tonality. In fact his preference for lean textures and his habitual rhythmic vehemence are at the furthest possible remove from Schoenberg's hyperromanticism. Some of Martin's most inspired music comes from his eighties; he worked on his last cantata, _Et la vie l'emporta_, until ten days before his death. He died in Naarden, The Netherlands.

(from Wikipedia)

I've just discovered Martin. His music offers quite an eclectic blend of many influences, such as impressionism, neo-classicsim and atonalism. Very interesting, because he developed a unique style based on these. All of the works on the 2 cd set I have listened to are quite different, from the neo-classicism of the _Petite symphonie concertante_, to the older pre-classical style of the _Mass for double choir _, & to the atonalism of _Polyptyque_. But even these descriptions are somewhat simplistic, his music is far more complex than that...

It's a shame that he isn't that well known. Perhaps, as the cd notes suggest, it is because he was from Switzerland, a country with a relatively young classical tradition?

What are people's impressions of Frank Martin?


----------



## LvB

Martin is, imo, one of those composers whose lack of popularity is a complete mystery. He may not be a Romantic, but this should not be taken to imply that his music lacks a strong emotional impact. Have you discovered the Concerto for Seven Winds, Percussion and Strings? It's under twenty minutes long, without any fat on its musical bones, but covers an impressive range of ground, rhythmically, melodically,and emotionally (especially in the middle movement). It's the kind of piece you'd think every orchestra would trot out at least once a decade as a showpiece for their first-desk wind and brass players, yet I think I've heard it live only once, years ago.

Other works I know and recommend include a striking harpsichord concerto, Ballades for trombone & piano and flute & piano (written as conservatory examination pieces, they really put the players through their paces; they exist also as orchestral pieces, but I haven't heard these), and some Etudes for strings which are quite enjoyable. 

I've heard it said that it takes fifty years after a composer's death for him/her to be rediscovered; unfortunately this, if true, means that Martin will have to wait until the 20s....


----------



## Mirror Image

LvB said:


> Martin is, imo, one of those composers whose lack of popularity is a complete mystery.


It's no mystery why he lacks popularity. It certainly isn't because he composed good music...that's for sure.


----------



## Sid James

I agree with LvB, Martin was a significant composer of the C20th.

Anyone who needs convincing should listen to his _*Sechs Monologe aus Jedermann *_(_Six Monologues from Everyman_) for baritone & orchestra. It's probably one of the best song-cycles of the century, the music has drama & the orchestration has to be heard to be believed! Who said atonal music cannot be engaging, accessible & interesting?


----------



## ecg_fa

I like a lot of Frank Martin's music that I've heard. Some other recordings I like
include:

the one featuring cellist Christian Poltera & some others) w. Malmo Symphony;
very pretty and atmospheric (& also sorta like Zemlinsky and Debussy) 'Vin Herbé' featuring Sandrine Piau, RIAS Chorus and others; the odd but impressive sort of 'post-Wagnerian' 'Die Weise von Liebe und Tod des Cornets Christoph Rilke' which I have on recording featuring Christianne Stotijn, great young Dutch singer; also 'Tryptichon' w. singer Julianne Banse & violinist Muriel Cantoreggi w.German Radio Philharonic Orchestra cond. by Christoph Poppen is very moving. I also like some of the Masses by him I've heard. I think there is some
affinity with Honegger/Hindemith but his work can be very lyrical at times. A composer 
I plan to check out more.

Ed


----------



## Sid James

Martin has become one of my favourite composers. I really like his idiosyncratic, eclectic & individual style. It has been stated that he was probably one of the greatest composers of the C20th, but hardly anyone knows him outside Switzerland. Despite the fact that big names like Marriner, Menuhin & Nagano have made excellent recordings of his music.

I especially like Martin's _*Petite Symphonie Concertante*_. I think it's one of the greatest concertos of the C20th. He borrows the instrumentation (harpsichord, string orchestra) and form of the traditional _Concerto Grosso_, but adds harp & piano (Paul Sacher, who commissioned it, wanted a work with all of the stringed instruments in it). The form may be traditional, but the music sounds totally fresh and new. Think of a blend of atonalism (although it sounds very tonal for the most), Neo-Classicism & I even hear jazz in the harpsichord solo. It's such an engaging & incisive work, but that's what you come to expect from Martin, once you've listened to some of his music. All of the music that I've heard from him is top-notch...


----------



## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Martin has become one of my favourite composers.


It doesn't take much for a composer to become your favorite does it?


----------



## Sid James

Mirror Image said:


> It doesn't take much for a composer to become your favorite does it?


Why are you dismissing a composer, whose works I doubt you have ever heard fully? You haven't reported any such experience here, at least, nor any constructive criticism as to why you don't like him. Of course, this probably means you haven't listened fully to any of the works mentioned above. A clip on the internet only a few minutes long does not give justice to any longer work, as you undoubtedly know...

I think that it's far more interesting if you say something insightful, as the posters above have, rather than dismissing a composer with a few short sentences...


----------



## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Why are you dismissing a composer, whose works I doubt you have ever heard fully? You haven't reported any such experience here, at least, nor any constructive criticism as to why you don't like him. Of course, this probably means you haven't listened fully to any of the works mentioned above. A clip on the internet only a few minutes long does not give justice to any longer work, as you undoubtedly know...
> 
> I think that it's far more interesting if you say something insightful, as the posters above have, rather than dismissing a composer with a few short sentences...


You want constructive criticism? You got it.

His music goes nowhere. There's no emotional content, no motivic development, lack of melody, poor harmonic language, his music doesn't center on anything profound, it just kind of lingers up in the air and has no kind of backbone. His artistic principles, whatever they may be, seem like a delusion of a composer that can't coupe with the fact that he doesn't have anything interesting to say musically. He couldn't write a melody to save his life.

Is that good enough or should I keep going?


----------



## Sid James

"No kind of backbone?" You're joking, right? Listen to the _Petite Symphonie Concertante_, which I described above. It's built around a very conventional _Concerto Grosso _structure & is basically monothematic. I'd liken it to Bartok's _Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta_.

& I bet my life that you haven't listened to his _Mass for Double Choir_ which is actually based on early Christian music. Depite it's imprecise tonality, which I admit can be a major hurdle for some listeners, Martin's music (like Bartok's) exudes adherence to traditional forms & ideas. He wasn't an iconoclast, he was just updating & modernising the old approaches...


----------



## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> "No kind of backbone?" You're joking, right? Listen to the _Petite Symphonie Concertante_, which I described above. It's built around a very conventional _Concerto Grosso _structure & is basically monothematic. I'd liken it to Bartok's _Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta_.
> 
> & I bet my life that you haven't listened to his _Mass for Double Choir_ which is actually based on early Christian music. Depite it's imprecise tonality, which I admit can be a major hurdle for some listeners, Martin's music (like Bartok's) exudes adherence to traditional forms & ideas. He wasn't an iconoclast, he was just updating & modernising the old approaches...


Well you obviously have your opinion and I have mine.


----------



## bdelykleon

Mirror Image said:


> You want constructive criticism? You got it.
> 
> His music goes nowhere. There's no emotional content, no motivic development, lack of melody, poor harmonic language, his music doesn't center on anything profound, it just kind of lingers up in the air and has no kind of backbone. His artistic principles, whatever they may be, seem like a delusion of a composer that can't coupe with the fact that he doesn't have anything interesting to say musically. He couldn't write a melody to save his life.
> 
> Is that good enough or should I keep going?


This is actually what MI say about EVERY composer he doesn't like. It is just his mantra.

Note that I never listened to Frank Martin and his music MAY lack emotional content, motivic development, melody and have a primitive harmonic language (is he talking about Karl Off, he just described perfectly _Catulli Carmina._..), but that would only be a coincidence, for he says that even of Messiaen, who is great at everyone of these levels.


----------



## Mirror Image

bdelykleon said:


> This is actually what MI say about EVERY composer he doesn't like. It is just his mantra.


Right and you've never said anything bad about any composer either.  You use the same excuses for every composer you don't like too. You just happen to word it differently every time.

I mean calling Bliss old-fashioned? Like this is a good reason to dislike a composer.


----------



## bdelykleon

Mirror Image said:


> You use the same excuses for every composer you don't like too.


Of course not. I said I didn't like Sibelius for some reaons, that I didn't like Vaughan Williams for others, and Galuppi for different ones. There are several reasons for being bad.


----------



## Mirror Image

bdelykleon said:


> Of course not. I said I didn't like Sibelius for some reaons, that I didn't like Vaughan Williams for others, and Galuppi for different ones. There are several reasons for being bad.


Exactly and I gave my reasons why I think Martin is bad.


----------



## bdelykleon

Mirror Image said:


> Exactly and I gave my reasons why I think Martin is bad.


Which are the same for every composer you don't like. That kind of generic and subjective criticism doesn't even show you cared to listen carefully to his work.


----------



## Mirror Image

bdelykleon said:


> Which are the same for every composer you don't like. That kind of generic and subjective criticism doesn't even show you cared to listen carefully to his work.


Much the same way you listen to somebody you don't like.  That's right, if I don't like something, then it's garbage how's that? Is that an honest enough answer for you? Nevermind the fact that I told you the criteria I evaluate music with. All of this is called personal taste. Everybody has their opinion of what is good and what isn't. I don't waste my time on music that is garbage to me.


----------



## Sid James

Well, if Mirror Image had criticised Martin's music for imprecise tonality, that would have been a valid criticism. I sadly agree with bdelykleon that Mirror Image is tarnishing Martin with the same brush he uses to criticize any composer who is vaguely serial. This is a mistake in any case, but especially with such an eclectic like Martin, who had so many influences, not only atonalism, but Neo-Classicism, impressionism and early Christian music (I even hear jazz in some of his music). It's all thrown into the mix, but he does it so well that's it's not mish-mash, but highly sophisticated.

Perhaps the criticism of 'lack of structure' could be made of Martin's Ballades. But that genre was loose anyway, even in the hands of less adventurous composers. Plus those works are relatively short (10-15 minutes), so he limits himself even within that less restricted structure. So I'm open to constructive criticism of any composer's shortcomings, including Martin, just make it more specific, as bdelykleon suggests.

By the way, which works of Martin have you heard IN FULL, Mirror Image? I don't mean a five minute clip on YouTube. I'm not a fan of that website, that's why I didn't post any videos etc. on this page...


----------



## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> By the way, which works of Martin have you heard IN FULL, Mirror Image? I don't mean a five minute clip on YouTube. I'm not a fan of that website, that's why I didn't post any videos etc. on this page...


A friend of mine, who's also a big classical fan, let me borrow this 2-CD recording:










So far I have only heard "Concerto for 7 Wind Instruments" and "Etudes for String Orchestra." I'm sorry but I wish I could be enthusiastic about these pieces as much you and my friend, but I find them very well....you know.


----------



## Sid James

Well, I haven't heard that recording, but thanks for posting it as it may be one I want to get in the future. I haven't seen much Martin in the store, so I might have to order it in at some stage. It looks like a good one.

I have the EMI Gemini 2 cd set of a variety of Martin's works (orchestral, choral, instrumental) & have enjoyed that immensely, although I admit, it takes a while to warm to some of his works...


----------



## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Well, I haven't heard that recording, but thanks for posting it as it may be one I want to get in the future. I haven't seen much Martin in the store, so I might have to order it in at some stage. It looks like a good one.
> 
> I have the EMI Gemini 2 cd set of a variety of Martin's works (orchestral, choral, instrumental) & have enjoyed that immensely, although I admit, it takes a while to warm to some of his works...


Well, I'm done listening to Martin. Nothing sticks out at me or moves me emotionally, so have fun listening to him. I'll happily bow out of this thread.


----------



## Sid James

LvB said:


> I've heard it said that it takes fifty years after a composer's death for him/her to be rediscovered; unfortunately this, if true, means that Martin will have to wait until the 20s....


I think that the problem regarding Martin's popularity, despite his music being championed & recorded by top-class performers across the world, is that he came from Switzerland, a country with a very short musical heritage. Also, he had a relatively small output, but this should be an asset, as all the works I have heard have been of exceptionally high quality. Stereotypes of Swiss clock-makers aside, the man was a true craftsman. & let us not forget, that in his time (I read about this), Bartok's music had a tendency to empty concert halls, now it fills them...

I think Mirror Image was wrong to dismiss his music after only a short listen, which is what I assume happened. Like all music that is monothematic that I have heard (other composers like Bartok, R Strauss & Vaughan Williams also produced music like this), it takes more than one listen to warm up to. It may not grab you straight away, but it has a tendency to grow on you.

I agree with the other posters above that Martin's music can be very lyrical & emotionally engaging. It might be too eclectic for some tastes, and some more conservative listeners can be put off by it's (deliberately) vague tonality, but it is some of the most rewarding music I have ever heard, exactly because it makes you more aware & perceptive of what's going on beneath the surface...


----------



## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I think Mirror Image was wrong to dismiss his music after only a short listen, which is what I assume happened. Like all music that is monothematic that I have heard (other composers like Bartok, R Strauss & Vaughan Williams also produced music like this), it takes more than one listen to warm up to. It may not grab you straight away, but it has a tendency to grow on you.


Yeah, I'm wrong to dismiss a composer.  At least, I admit I don't like something and don't try and sugarcoat everything with explanations that have nothing to do with what I actually think.

Martin's music is pure, unadulterated garbage.


----------



## Sid James

Mirror Image said:


> Martin's music is pure, unadulterated garbage.


Thanks for your constructive, positive and insightful contribution to this forum. 

Unfortunately, this is what I've come to expect from some contributors regarding music composed after WW2. As soon as it is mentioned or discussed, people like you who seem to be more conservative in their tastes go ga-ga. I'm not trying to force the music down anyone's throat, just to have an intelligent discussion. So far, on this thread, you have just been a naysayer & not contributed to this. I now somewhat doubt that you have listened to any Martin at all, as posting that album cover as 'evidence' didn't really contribute anything or say anything about your opinions of specific works in knowledgeable ways. Sometimes it is better, as bdeykleon suggests, to not contribute anything if you are going to be so negative & judgemental about a composer's music without giving it a REAL (or any) listen...

Look like, though we are now in 2009, some people's musical opinion of what is 'modern' stops in 1913 with Stravinsky's _The Rite of Spring_. Now this is rubbish. There has been plenty of progressive, challenging and stimulating music composed since then and people should either accept this or at least give tangible reasons as to why it is inferior to music composed before. I think I may start a thread about listener's conservatism elsewhere. That would at least bring these opinion out in the open, as they seem to be in the background all the time.

Anyway, I strongly stand by my earlier assertion that Martin has been unfairly neglected, and was one of the most distinctive voices in C20th music, along with Bartok, Stravinsky & Britten...


----------



## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Thanks for your constructive, positive and insightful contribution to this forum.
> 
> Unfortunately, this is what I've come to expect from some contributors regarding music composed after WW2. As soon as it is mentioned or discussed, people like you who seem to be more conservative in their tastes go ga-ga. I'm not trying to force the music down anyone's throat, just to have an intelligent discussion. So far, on this thread, you have just been a naysayer & not contributed to this. I now somewhat doubt that you have listened to any Martin at all, as posting that album cover as 'evidence' didn't really contribute anything or say anything about your opinions of specific works in knowledgeable ways. Sometimes it is better, as bdeykleon suggests, to not contribute anything if you are going to be so negative & judgemental about a composer's music without giving it a REAL (or any) listen...
> 
> Look like, though we are now in 2009, some people's musical opinion of what is 'modern' stops in 1913 with Stravinsky's _The Rite of Spring_. Now this is rubbish. There has been plenty of progressive, challenging and stimulating music composed since then and people should either accept this or at least give tangible reasons as to why it is inferior to music composed before. I think I may start a thread about listener's conservatism elsewhere. That would at least bring these opinion out in the open, as they seem to be in the background all the time.
> 
> Anyway, I strongly stand by my earlier assertion that Martin has been unfairly neglected, and was one of the most distinctive voices in C20th music, along with Bartok, Stravinsky & Britten...


Well, I have my opinion and you have yours. What's consersevative about Britten or Bartok? I love these composers, what I don't enjoy are composers like Martin who couldn't compose a melody to save their lives.


----------



## danae

Having read all the posts on this thread I got so tired that I don't think I ever wanna sit down and listen to the poor guy! (Martin I mean)


----------



## Sid James

Mirror Image said:


> Well, I have my opinion and you have yours. What's consersevative about Britten or Bartok? I love these composers, what I don't enjoy are composers like Martin who couldn't compose a melody to save their lives.


Britten or Bartok both have their challenging works, as does Martin. But none of the three should be judged after just one superficial listen. That's now the reason why they composed music. It was meant to be listened to repeatedly.

As I said above, you obviously have no familiarity with Martin, so your judgement is based on fairly spurious grounds. With repeated listens, his music can be just as enjoyable and tuneful, for that matter, as the other two. Martin was basically a modern traditionalist like them, which people who are liable to make a more superficial analysis miss out on. Martin's _Mass for Double Choir _is no more out-there or difficult than, say, Durufle's _Requiem_. It's actually based on early Christian music. So again, dismissing something as 'garbage' because you don't know about works like this is nonsense, really...


----------



## danae

Andre, I honestly don't understand why you keep trying to convince MI. You know it's gonna get you nowhere!


----------



## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Britten or Bartok both have their challenging works, as does Martin. But none of the three should be judged after just one superficial listen. That's now the reason why they composed music. It was meant to be listened to repeatedly.
> 
> As I said above, you obviously have no familiarity with Martin, so your judgement is based on fairly spurious grounds. With repeated listens, his music can be just as enjoyable and tuneful, for that matter, as the other two. Martin was basically a modern traditionalist like them, which people who are liable to make a more superficial analysis miss out on. Martin's _Mass for Double Choir _is no more out-there or difficult than, say, Durufle's _Requiem_. It's actually based on early Christian music. So again, dismissing something as 'garbage' because you don't know about works like this is nonsense, really...


You don't have hardly any experience with any composer, what's your point? You hear a few pieces by composer and think you know everything there is know about them. You have some private messages waiting on you by the way.


----------



## Sid James

danae said:


> Andre, I honestly don't understand why you keep trying to convince MI. You know it's gonna get you nowhere!


Well I think that the impressions & information that I have given about Martin's music in above posts might be generally of interest to readers other than him. I think that early on in this thread, ecg fa & LvB made some positve, constructive & interesting contributions. I'm not saying this because I agree with them, but because they have provided insights into works (some of) which I am not familiar yet. I think any exposure that a composer of Martin's calibre can get is positive.


----------



## Scott Good

The first piece (and unfortunately one of the only) pieces of Martin's I am familiar with is his Ballade for Trombone and Orchestra. I got it on a recording when I was new to classical music, and was developing in my study of classical trombone performance.

I LOVE this piece. It is both haunting, and playful. The melodies he constructs are so interesting - he seems to float so comfortably between a motivic gesture, and a longer line. Just the right amount of repetition to give a sense of place.

The sounds themselves are very appealing. The orchestration is lush and romantic, and his writing for the trombone is challenging, but idiomatic. The harmonies do evoke jazz like feel, and so do the rhythms. He is not afraid to let the music wander where it must...in this, a find some kinship with Sibelius, or Prokofiev.

He so clearly uses row like ideas to construct larger forms, although I have not analyzed the music. Listen to this piece, and notice how the opening solo trombone line is augmented throughout the first section. But it is subtle, not overt.

(not a great recording - playing is good (but I feel he breaks the phrases too much IMHO- I like it more connected), but sound quality is terrible.






If it interests you, get this recording! Not only for this work, but also the Sandstrom Motorbike concerto is a serious hoot - totally awesome in a post modern kind of way. And this guy is the best classical trombone player IMHO and many others.

http://www.hbdirect.com/album_detail.php?pid=38167


----------



## Sid James

Scott Good said:


> I LOVE this piece. It is both haunting, and playful...
> 
> The sounds themselves are very appealing. The orchestration is lush and romantic...
> 
> The harmonies do evoke jazz like feel, and so do the rhythms. He is not afraid to let the music wander where it must...


These points describe some of Martin's music well.

I was just listening to _Polyptyque_ last night, and the emotion of the music really hit me squarely between the eyes, so to speak. This was about my fifth listening to a piece I had considered a bit too stolid & grey, but somehow I am now able to access the romance of the piece. You can really tell that it's about the passion of Christ.

I think his music has much subtlety. That's why it tends to grow on you...


----------



## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I think his music has much subtlety. That's why it tends to grow on you...


Much like Delius' music.


----------



## Sid James

Mirror Image said:


> Much like Delius' music.


Well I think what both Martin & Delius had in common as they were both pretty eclectic. But I think Martin was more of a traditionalist. This is perhaps the reason why his music has been rather neglected since his death, it was considered by the musical establishment to be not enough radical. I hope this misguided & biased view is changing now, in light of Martin's excellent output in many genres...


----------



## jdavid

I don't know much music of Martin, but I do know that the Ballade for Flute and Orchestra and the Ballade for Trombone and Orchestra are among the short lists of great works for those instruments. They are competition winning pieces not because of a run-of-the-mill technical display but because of their high-powered psychology and the complete artistic respect Martin lavishes on these two instruments (and the orchestra) whose respective literatures cannot compare with the piano, or violin reps.


----------



## Rapide

For a 12-tone composer Martin wrote a lot of weak stuff compared with Schoenberg and Berg. Probably a 3rd tier composer at best for 12-tone. I wouldn't waste too much time getting to know 12-tone by listening to Martin's stuff. More fruitful with other 12-tone composers.


----------



## Rangstrom

The Hyperion recording of his opera Der Sturm (based on The Tempset) just arrived in the mail today. It should be fun to compare with the Ades opera.


While Martin is probably best known for his series of smaller scaled concertante works, he certainly demonstrated the ability to deal with larger forces and forms with his oratorio Golgatha.


----------



## Head_case

I really like Martin's harpsichord works, flute works and string quartets. 

The 12 tone theoretical stuff isn't strongly foregrounded in these works: whereas Rapide refers to this as a '3rd tier composer at best for 12-tone', by abandoning this theoretical underpinning of his compositional writing, Martin's work takes on a dramatically individual voice in a searching language, distinctly of his own.


----------



## Rapide

I think so too about "finding his own voice" when he dumps / loosens up with 12-tone. I think that is being more honest as an artiste for Martin.


----------



## Guest

Looking through some of the postings on this thread is a disheartening experience. Lots of personal insults and trolling comments. This is the last music forum I've arrived at after having left two previous ones because of trolls. Very disappointing when people put their egos before discussion and the actual music. I think private 'conversations' between music-lovers is the way to go now, and I do engage in this. Lots of other people I know have made the same kinds of comments about (in particular, music) forums. I guess those in academic institutions should have other academics to talk to about these things, the same as I did with teaching colleagues when I was working. For these kinds of people to resort to fora for their kicks is a little suspicious, I think.

I think of Hyacinth Bucket (Bouquet!) and her comment about "ignoramouses, or ignoramiai?"!! I don't mean to offend those who never behave in this way, and there are still lots of these kinds of people!!


----------



## Ukko

:lol: I read only page one of this thread, but it was pretty amusing; so many 'don't likes'. In the case of FM, they appear to be unwitting Confessions of Incomprehension.

I have another bit of sure-to-be-unheeded advice for the young folks here: Examine your 'don't like' posts before clicking on the 'submit' button, to see if they exhibit callowness more than wisdom.

[Old folks like moi have developed calluses over the foolishness sensor; you need to get that straightened out sometime before 30. Well, maybe 35 anyway.]


----------



## millionrainbows

I agree with Sid James totally about _*Sechs Monologe aus Jedermann *_(_Six Monologues from Everyman_) for baritone & orchestra. It's like really good Schoenberg, even better in a way. I don't usually like male baritone voices, but I like this.

I also think Head_case is right, about Frank Martin's "distinctive voice." Actually, he sounds to me like a "true chromaticism" thinker, like much of Bartók, where the chromaticism begins to depart from tonality altogether, with an emphasis on tritone-division of the octave, use of seconds and thirds as "projecting" intervals instead of fourths and fifths, and tone-centric cells of notes which bounce around. If there's any hard-core 12-tone going on, I'd be hard-pressed to hear it, as this seems to be harmonically-based chromaticism.

Martin is very consistent and confident in his sound; I think I like him more than Bartók. There's so much of his stuff we haven't heard, as well.

Also, the photo Sid posted is a good reminder: don't smoke cigarettes.


----------



## millionrainbows

The liner notes for the Hyperion release with _Mass for Double Choir _confirms what I suspected; Martin was exposed to Schoenberg's serial method in 1932, and completely rejected it; so I see him as a chromatic, yet harmonically-oriented composer.

His _Passacaille_ for organ, included on this release, has a theme consisting of 11 different notes. This _Passacaille (1944)_ is also available in a full-orchestra version (Dinemec Classics, Geneva CO, Fischer).

The _Petite Concertante_ was also composed in a full-orchestra version, but all we seem to get is the "petite" version.

The EMI 2-CD set is a good place to start.

Frank Martin was a devout lifelong Calvinist Catholic. There are many religious running throughout his work, but unlike Messiaen, Martin felt that religion was a private matter. Subsequently, he was hesitant to publish these works.

Frank Martin could easily supplant Messiaen as my go-to religious proselytizing composer.


----------



## millionrainbows

I'm comparing versions of the Petite Symphonie concertante, commissioned by Paul Sacher in 1944, and completed in 1945.

The EMI has much to offer; 2-CDs as well. Sir Neville Mariner & St. Martins does a good job, and there is a distinct infusion of emotion which distiguishes it. A good recording as well. There is a good close-up photo of Martin in this booklet.

This Thierry Fischer is my mainstay, the one I come back to. Note the cigarette hanging out of his mouth. See the EMI close-up photo of his dried-out skin, and let this be a graphic demonstration of what years of smoking can do to your skin texture.










The one with the Paul Klee cover is good; it conveys musical meaning better than the others. It also features Anthony Newman on the harpsichord, always a plus. It is miked well, and the 'concertante' instruments (piano, harpsi, harp) can be heard well. Perhaps this is what makes it more musically intelligible.









The Apex version (above) is very good. It has a killer version of the Jedermann songs as well. Pictured below is the original-issue Erato cover, before Warner took over and reissued all these Eratos.


----------



## millionrainbows

Martin's technique in the *Petite Symphonie concertante *seems to be similar to Bartok, in that he uses the octatonic scale throughout. This scale, also known as the diminished scale, divides the octave into three 4-note diminished seventh chords. Thus, three 'tonic stations' are formed, which gives the effect of 3 constantly shifting, yet unmistakably tonal, centers of activity.

Plus, these diminished sevenths are ambiguous in their meaning as well, giving us more to grasp on-to as making 'tonal sense;'

The diminished seventh on vii in tonality can easily be interpreted as an incomplete V7, and is resolved as if it were. This can create the illusion of V7s which constantly shift and resolve.

The major and minor thirds in this octatonic scale also create an ambiguity of major/minor wherever they appear.

Tritones are also inherent in the octatonic, which creates instability & a desire to move on, as well as a tritonic dominant effect of a major third/flated seventh, which can invert, interchange, and create V7 cycles and chromatic descents of resolution.


----------



## Blancrocher

millionrainbows said:


> Martin's technique in the *Petite Symphonie concertante *seems to be similar to Bartok, in that he uses the octatonic scale throughout.


Out of curiosity, do you by chance know if Martin said anything about why he chose to employ the octatonic scale? I've taken an interest in the rather sordid debates about Stravinsky's and others' uses of it, and wondered if Martin sheds any light on his influences.


----------



## millionrainbows

Blancrocher said:


> Out of curiosity, has Martin said anything about why he chose to employ the octatonic scale? I've taken an interest in the rather sordid debates about Stravinsky's and others' uses of it, and wondered if Martin sheds any light on his influences.


I've never seen any quotes by Martin on this, but the division of the octave symmetrically was an idea 'in the air' whose time had come. It appears in Debussy and many other composers as well. Martin did study Schoenberg's 12-tone method, but rejected it. He did write some 12-tone guitar pieces. Also, this interest in symmetry and in geometric divisions (rather than harmonic-derived) of the octave could be attributed to Martin's study of mathematics and physics at Geneva University.


----------



## musicrom

Does anyone have any opinions about Martin's _Violin Concerto_? My local orchestra is performing it alongside Beethoven's 5th and Sibelius's _Pélleas and Mélisande_ and I can't decide between that concert and a couple other ones. If the Martin is a good piece, I would probably go to that concert.


----------



## Bruce

musicrom said:


> Does anyone have any opinions about Martin's _Violin Concerto_? My local orchestra is performing it alongside Beethoven's 5th and Sibelius's _Pélleas and Mélisande_ and I can't decide between that concert and a couple other ones. If the Martin is a good piece, I would probably go to that concert.


I'd go to the concerto featuring Martin's Violin Concerto. But that's a subjective opinion. Better to catch a bit of it on a YouTube video; if you haven't heard it, at least get an idea what it's like before giving up on Beethoven and Schönberg. Both concerts sound good, though.


----------



## Bruce

I've never heard anything Martin wrote that I didn't like. A few of my favorites of his are his Violin Concerto, the piano preludes, and his Maria Triptychon. All engaging works.


----------



## PetrB

musicrom said:


> Does anyone have any opinions about Martin's _Violin Concerto_? My local orchestra is performing it alongside Beethoven's 5th and Sibelius's _Pélleas and Mélisande_ and I can't decide between that concert and a couple other ones. If the Martin is a good piece, I would probably go to that concert.


Martin ~ _Violin Concerto_ (1 of 4)





Unless there are some other lesser / rarely performed works on those other programs you are specifically keen to hear, I would almost always opt for the opportunity to hear those works which are less frequently programmed live... ergo, for me, a no-brainer -- this program has the Martin _Violin Concerto_ and it does not show up everyday (this is probably similarly true of the Sibelius


----------



## musicrom

PetrB said:


> Martin ~ _Violin Concerto_ (1 of 4)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless there are some other lesser / rarely performed works on those other programs you are specifically keen to hear, I would almost always opt for the opportunity to hear those works which are less frequently programmed live... ergo, for me, a no-brainer -- this program has the Martin _Violin Concerto_ and it does not show up everyday (this is probably similarly true of the Sibelius


Thanks for the advice. Although my first impressions of the piece aren't great (20th century composers other than Shostakovich usually give me a hard time), I think I'll probably go for it. I'm certain that the concerto would be more intriguing watching live, and besides, even if it doesn't work out, the Beethoven and Sibelius can't possibly go wrong.


----------



## musicrom

I finally went to this concert today and saw Martin's Violin Concerto, and although it's still not my favorite, I have to say - live performances make a huge difference! A lot of what I didn't like listening to it online somehow disappeared when listening to it in person. It's an intense, interesting, virtuosic piece, but I feel like it's missing something. There weren't many memorable themes, in my opinion, besides the very opening.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I love the Petite Symphonie Concertante and the Concerto for Clavicembalo e Piccola Orchestra.

Bit of a Swiss Bartok.

The Mass is nothing to laugh at.


----------



## Neo Romanza

Frank Martin is a hugely undervalued composer, IMHO. Perhaps a lot of it has do with him being Swiss, but also spending so much time in the Netherlands. I'm not sure, but it's a shame he doesn't get discussed much around here. Here's what I wrote about him on another forum:

Frank Martin is a fabulous composer. Works of his such as the _Requiem_, _Golgotha_, the _Cello Concerto_, the _Ballades_, _Polyptyque_, and _In terra pax_ are nothing short than extraordinary. It's always baffled me as to why he's not better known, but I'm sure it more or less has to do with how his musical voice is sometimes rather ambiguous and he doesn't go for the grab-you-by-the-throat climaxes a la Shostakovich or Bartok. His art is of subtlety and color. Once you start investigating the music and really listen to how it all fits together, you start to understand that he actually had quite a singular voice.


----------



## Joachim Raff

*Petite Symphonie Concertante*
An extraordinary piece of music for harp, harpsichord, piano, and double string orchestra. Totally haunting, mysterious and unique in almost every way. Stokowski is the man for the job. Everyone else tends to fade into insignificance. This piece of music is an absolute masterpiece.


----------



## Neo Romanza

Joachim Raff said:


> View attachment 179578
> 
> 
> 
> *Petite Symphonie Concertante*
> An extraordinary piece of music for harp, harpsichord, piano, and double string orchestra. Totally haunting, mysterious and unique in almost every way. Stokowski is the man for the job. Everyone else tends to fade into insignificance. This piece of music is an absolute masterpiece.


While I don't doubt Stokowski's performance is good, there have been several great performances of this work on record. I'm thinking here of Armin Jordan (my reference recording for this work) and Ansermet.


----------



## PeterKC

Frank was better before he was 12-tone.


----------

