# "Clever" music



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Some music is profound and emotional, some is academic yet still beautiful.
What I want to find on this thread is which music people think is amazing not (just) for the melodic and harmonic ideas but for how they are treated. 
Examples: Bach's _Musical Offering_. Who else could write so much music on such a difficult theme?
Beethoven's _Grosse Fuge_. This is also amazing contrapuntal music.
This is, however, not limited to contrapuntal music or chamber music. Another example could be the final movement of Berlioz's _Symphonie Fantastique_, with its unique treatment of the Dies Irae.
What are your thoughts?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

This is an aside issue, btw, I know what your intended meaning of the OP is 

Is it just me?

I may be the only one, but for some decades at the least, the word 'Clever' as applied to classical music or other fine arts endeavors, in both English and American usage -- and almost exclusively when and where found in arts criticism -- has been used in the pejorative -- i.e. 'clever' as more 'tricky' than substantially inventive or worthwhile, meaning the artist is more facile and adept than actually talented.

... but isn't your question begging for a list of a ton of already recognized repertoire, past to present, which is generally recognized as both genius _and ingenious?_


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

_Ein musikalischer Spaß_ comes to mind.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Kopachris said:


> _Ein musikalischer Spaß_ comes to mind.


"Underneath the seemingly bumbling surface, Mozart is wielding his usual wit. For example, the clash of the last chords seems simply inept, but here is the joke: the various instruments are in different keys, which form triads on the five notes of an e-flat major scale."

Laughed till I thought I'd bust a gut.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Most of Schoenberg, Webern, Boulez, Xenakis, etc.? Don't forget the 20th century! I don't know the theory at all, but the people who do seem to have huge boners for them. Of course, artistically and musically they are great too, and this is the most important thing.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

PetrB said:


> This is an aside issue, btw, I know what your intended meaning of the OP is
> 
> Is it just me?
> 
> ...


Wow, PetrB, had wanted to say something along similar lines but couldn't say it well enough to deleted my post - but yes, you have nailed it!


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

MoonlightSonata said:


> Some music is profound and emotional, some is academic yet still beautiful.
> What I want to find on this thread is which music people think is amazing not (just) for the melodic and harmonic ideas but for how they are treated.
> Examples: Bach's _Musical Offering_. Who else could write so much music on such a difficult theme?
> Beethoven's _Grosse Fuge_. This is also amazing contrapuntal music.
> ...


The most 'clever' pieces are Haydn's, I think. You could listen to his works an infinite amount of times and still discover new turns and details. I'm generally a big fan of compositional 'craft' and less a fan of 'tunes' - with craft, there's also the beauty of structure, compositional and instrumental detail, in addition to the general beauty of the melodic or harmonic content.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Agreed. Nobody wrote more clever music than Haydn. Listen to the last movement of his ingenious Farewell Symphony or the finale of his Symphonies No.'s 94 and 102. Astonishing composing virtuosity!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Of course, one can't leave out Herr Mozart either. A case in point-listen to the slow movement of his d minor piano concerto. It has a calm, beautiful opening section in B Flat major leading into a stormy g minor section. The incredible modulation from this stormy section back to the beautiful calm opening theme is one of the greatest miracles in all music in my opinion. Clever doesn't even begin to describe it. Absolutely breathtaking!


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

The movement in Beethoven's c-sharp minor quartet in which, towards the end, he composes a passage in which the players appear to lose their places and the performance hovers perilously near breaking down.
Prokofiev's "Classical" Symphony.
The juxtapositions throughout Mahler's music between dark martial passages and Klezmer-type dance music.
Brahms' way of winning you over at the end by a sudden change in tempo or character of a theme at the beginning of a coda.
Shostakovich's ability in the Fifth Symphony to write music that is both a parody of what a dictator like Stalin would like, while at the same time being exactly the kind of music a dictator like Stalin would like.
Janacek's ability to write seamless music that is all seams.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

I haven't heard some of these. I'll make sure to listen.
How could I have possibly forgotten Haydn?!


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

While I've never warmed to the piece myself, my understanding is that Beethoven's Diabelli Variations is the all-time champion for making a silk purse of a sow's ear.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Agreed. Nobody wrote more clever music than Haydn. Listen to the last movement of his ingenious Farewell Symphony or the finale of his Symphonies No.'s 94 and 102. Astonishing composing virtuosity!


Indeed, nobody? There is that little matter of _Don Giovanni,_ which happens to be strung out over several hours upon the stays, cables, tent-poles and canvas of a very big-top tent in extended symphonic form; that ballroom scene at the end of Act I, where Mozart manages to give us three instrumental ensembles onstage simultaneously playing -- each their own distinct music -- one ensemble playing a minuet in 3/4, another a contradanse in 2/4 and the third a quick-tempo peasant dance in 3/8, all in sync with the pit orchestra and while the various characters are singing, somehow each still retaining their own musical style and manner which elucidates their personalities... that is a lot of plates spinning in the air at one time, moving a theatrical work forward all the while, and, oh, I dunno, just about the most jaw-dropping instance of the most virtuosic and fluid counterpoint from anyone in the entire common practice period, 'that Thuringian' included 





I'd call _that_ "rather clever."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GGluek said:


> Janacek's ability to write seamless music that is all seams.


This may be one of the most devastating pieces of music criticism ever.

Or it may not...


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

PetrB said:


> This is an aside issue, btw, I know what your intended meaning of the OP is
> 
> Is it just me?
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's my take on 'clever' too. And the first name that pops up is Atterberg.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

MoonlightSonata said:


> Some music is profound and emotional, some is academic yet still beautiful.
> What I want to find on this thread is which music people think is amazing not (just) for the melodic and harmonic ideas but for how they are treated.
> Examples: Bach's _Musical Offering_. Who else could write so much music on such a difficult theme?


Who else indeed. I've always loved_ The Musical Offering_, even though a lot of listeners - even big Bach fans - see it as dry and academic. I first got hooked on the trio sonata in the middle of it - which Bach most likely composed earlier and inserted it there maybe to give the players and listeners light relief amidst all the contrapuntal complexity - and was anxious to hear the rest. I find the _Ricercar a 6_ out of this world, on so many levels, not only technical but also other things harder to put a name to.

In an interview done in the 1960's, American composer Roger Sessions named _The Musical Offering_ as that rare work where this sort of extremely rigorous application of technique for its own end - eg. as an intellectual exercise - actually works as music.

I think Mozart and Haydn fit the bill here too. Even in their most popular warhorse type works you can hear brilliant minds at work. Say _Eine Kleine Nachtmusik,_ where in the first movement every statement of that tune is slightly different, or in the second movement of the_ Surprise_ symphony, where the same sort of thing happens.

I'd also add other theme and variation type works like this, namely Rachmaninov's _Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini _- the 18th variation, a turning upside down of the 24th caprice tune, makes it into something approaching the sublime - and too many to name by Tchaikovsky and Brahms. Also, Elgar's _Enigma Variations_, one which I have only recently connected with on a deeper level than before. Another more recent work of this sort is the _Metamorphic Variations_ (1970's) by Arthur Bliss.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> This may be one of the most devastating pieces of music criticism ever.
> 
> Or it may not...


Hey, it may be the only thing that gave that critic one bit of post mortem longevity -- maybe even as long as Janacek's!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ribonucleic said:


> While I've never warmed to the piece myself, my understanding is that Beethoven's Diabelli Variations is the all-time champion for making a silk purse of a sow's ear.


He started with that little banal tune, and variation after variation, it just gets further and further away, the variants taking over, the little ditty quickly lost, never to return. It is a constantly expanding musical universe, the _Diabelli Variations._


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

PetrB said:


> He started with that little banal tune, and variation after variation, it just gets further and further away, the variants taking over, the little ditty quickly lost, never to return. It is a constantly expanding musical universe, the _Diabelli Variations._


It's been said that it's not a true variation set, and that Beethoven himself called it "transformations" rather than variations. However, from what I can tell just by listening to it, there's a sort of background harmonic structure that repeats in every variation. I wouldn't say the first variation is any less far from the theme than the last variations, although perhaps there are some variations right after the first that are closer to the theme.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I have always been delighted by Prokofiev's "Classical" Symphony, obviously modeled after Haydn, but sounding like terrific Prokofiev.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

hpowders said:


> I have always been delighted by Prokofiev's "Classical" Symphony, obviously modeled after Haydn, but sounding like terrific Prokofiev.











Yes: that wonderful little graduation exercise he wrote at the Conservatoire without the aid of a piano-- and with Haydn as his muse.

I really love Levine's CSO treatment of it; especially with his dashing first movement.

Pure fun.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> View attachment 51416
> 
> 
> Yes: that wonderful little graduation exercise he wrote at the Conservatoire without the aid of a piano-- and with Haydn as his muse.
> ...


Yes, thanks. I have this performance. I think I like Solti best.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Clever music is every note written by the truly great composers, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven to name a few. Pure and simple.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Well that puts a wrap on the topic! Can I go home now? Rush hour traffic's a bitch!


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

Ligeti's _Musica Ricercata_ is the first piece to come to mind when I think of cleverness. Each of the pieces' own individuality and Ligeti's jocular idiosyncracies, despite the restrictions of pitch classes throughout, make for a delightful experience. Though this concept of pitch restrictions may seem rather rudimentary to some, it is quite clever and interesting from the perspective of a listener who rarely reads the score let alone analyzes them.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

PetrB said:


> He started with that little banal tune, and variation after variation, it just gets further and further away, the variants taking over, the little ditty quickly lost, never to return. It is a constantly expanding musical universe, the _Diabelli Variations._


Ever listen to Diabelli's own music (beyond the bit used by LvB)? It's competent and pleasant, but the musical universe is very small. Big Louie should have been ashamed of himself, making fun of little Anton that way.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Reminds me of the airplane conversation in Fight Club.

Narrator: Tyler, you are by far the most interesting single-serving friend I've ever met. See I have this thing: everything on a plane is single-serving.
Tyler Durden: Oh I get it. It's very clever.
Narrator: Thank you.
Tyler Durden: How's that working out for you?
Narrator: What?
Tyler Durden: Being clever.
Narrator: Great.
Tyler Durden: Keep it up then.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

There is no clever music. Just stupid listeners....

Probably why I think its _all_ clever stuff!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I find the Concord Piano Sonata by Ives to be very clever. It's amazing how Ives can create such a dissonant kaleidoscope of sound and within that framework, one can make out touching hymns.


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## muzik (May 16, 2013)

What does contrapuntal music mean?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

muzik said:


> What does contrapuntal music mean?


Fancy word for counterpoint -- (mostly) baroque musical texture where the different parts move in different melodic lines yet compliment each other.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Sometimes cleverness doesn't have to be an entire piece, but just one phrase, or even one note.

In Handel's Messiah the opening section "Comfort ye my people" where it quotes: 
"Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her *iniquity* is pardoned."

The word iniquity is on an almost dissonant chord. Well, maybe only diminished or augmented or something, but it's a little out of place compared to the rest of it. I always found this thrilling and clever.

It's the little stuff.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Weston said:


> Sometimes cleverness doesn't have to be an entire piece, but just one phrase, or even one note.
> 
> In Handel's Messiah the opening section "Comfort ye my people" where it quotes:
> "Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her *iniquity* is pardoned."
> ...


Looked it up. It's a diminished triad leading to V of V, so it's vii of V of V, which is a dissonance (containing the tritone) and also implies tonicization of a different key. The arioso eventually ends in A major, rather than the E major it started in, so this is the jumping off point where the tonality begins to shift.

But, at the same time, the voice has also just jumped up by a tritone, which emphasizes the dissonance all the more.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Mahlerian said:


> Looked it up. It's a diminished triad leading to V of V, so it's vii of V of V, which is a dissonance (containing the tritone) and also implies tonicization of a different key. The arioso eventually ends in A major, rather than the E major it started in, so this is the jumping off point where the tonality begins to shift.
> 
> But, at the same time, the voice has also just jumped up by a tritone, which emphasizes the dissonance all the more.


Wow! Thanks for that. I had no idea. That's that classic "evil" interval. What fun! What's amazing to me is it seems inevitable and nearly effortless in this context. I'm all the more impressed now.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2014)

MoonlightSonata said:


> Some music is profound and emotional, some is academic yet still beautiful.
> What I want to find on this thread is which music people think is amazing not (just) for the melodic and harmonic ideas but for how they are treated.
> Examples: Bach's _Musical Offering_. Who else could write so much music on such a difficult theme?
> Beethoven's _Grosse Fuge_. This is also amazing contrapuntal music.
> ...


I'm not sure how to approach your OP, Moonlight. I would say though that the idea of "clever" music has been with us for a couple of centuries, with critics contemporary to Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven publishing scribblings about "learnèd" (note the *è* accent grave for pronunciation) passages in their works.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Sid James said:


> Who else indeed. I've always loved_ The Musical Offering_, even though a lot of listeners - even big Bach fans - see it as dry and academic. I first got hooked on the trio sonata in the middle of it - *which Bach most likely composed earlier* and inserted it there maybe to give the players and listeners light relief amidst all the contrapuntal complexity - and was anxious to hear the rest.


Sorry guys, the bit put in *danger red* is wrong, Bach composed the trio sonata at the same time as the rest of _The Musical Offering_. I was thinking of his other sonatas involving flute, which where composed at an earlier time.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

TalkingHead said:


> I'm not sure how to approach your OP, Moonlight. I would say though that the idea of "clever" music has been with us for a couple of centuries, with critics contemporary to Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven publishing scribblings about "learnèd" (note the *è* accent grave for pronunciation) passages in their works.


I didn't mean clever as in learnèd, I meant clever as in creative, intricate, often slightly humorous. Come to think of it, though, a discussion of clever (learnèd) composers would be interesting.


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

Sid James said:


> Sorry guys, the bit put in *danger red* is wrong, Bach composed the trio sonata at the same time as the rest of _The Musical Offering_. I was thinking of his other sonatas involving flute, which where composed at an earlier time.


That's good, because I was about to go hunting up my Musical Offering recordings, since as soon as I saw that I thought, "What? No, the trio sonata has the Theme in it, how could it have been written before he was given the Theme?"


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

Back on topic, for the _cleverest_ of Haydn I'd nominate the palindrome movement (47/III), the fact that during his outlandish joke of having the orchestra stop so the strings can tune their instruments (60/VI) is done in complete accordance with the required movement through the circle of fifths, the way he pulls a "magic trick" sleight-of-hand on you at the outset of 80/IV so you hear the rhythm completely wrong, then comes back to "show you how the trick was done" and continues mocking your attempts to hear the downbeat right, and the overall evolution of the main theme throughout the movements of Symphony 88. Those are kind of just the tips of the iceberg, though.


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