# How many evergreens are in the forest?



## mud (May 17, 2012)

Perpetually popular works of classical music are called "evergreens": which ones would you give this distinction?


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Beethoven's *Fifth *and Tchaikovsky's *Sixth* *{"Pathetique"} * along with much of the canon of J.S. Bach. I have also seen the term "warhorses" used to depict these types of popular works.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

I got the impression from albums such as "clarinet evergreens" that this term is more relative than warhorses.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

samurai said:


> Beethoven's *Fifth *and Tchaikovsky's *Sixth* *{"Pathetique"} * along with much of the canon of J.S. Bach. I have also seen the term "warhorses" used to depict these types of popular works.


Not quite the same thing. "Evergreens" are works which retain their attraction. "War Horses" are works that are frequently performed. Subjectively, all warhorses are not evergreens, and some of my evergreens are not frequently performed.

[And who knows, for some folks all of the warhorses may be evergreen.]


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

I would like to end up with a forest of evergreens anyhow. Some of the music has fallen away with the passing seasons.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Please not the canon.

But at the same time, go the canon.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

Pachelbel's Canon is an evergreen.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

mud said:


> Pachelbel's Canon is an evergreen.


Not that sort of canon, as perhaps you know... I don't know, sarcasm on the internet being somewhat elusive.

"Canon is a term that is used to describe a body of musical works and composers accredited with a high level of value and greatness." - Grove

The canon as it is known today essentially evolved in the nineteenth century around Haydn and Mozart's works, but soon it was Beethoven who came to dominate it, along with musical thinking since then. At the centre of the canon are the works of Ludwig van Beethoven, and his ninth symphony at the centre of those... Beethoven's works particularly embody the values which are at the heart of the concept of canon - the idea of the eternal values, such as joy and suffering, triumph over adversity, eternal brotherhood etc. Also the conscious construction of masterpieces, the creative genius, the 'work' - concepts that are central to our thinking about music to this day.

There are those who would like to see the canon deconstructed in some kind of celebration of mediocrity...

So essentially the quintessential evergreens are the works of Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart... Also Wagner, Mahler, Schubert etc. Let us hope they will remain evergreen.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

I think the concept of evergreens is not the same as a canon. It is more like music that is immutable (pardon the pun).


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I've heard an awful lot of classical music, from popular to obscure. My music server is packed with all kinds in random shuffle 24/7 throughout my house. I rarely select what I'm going to hear. I just delete music from the server if I really can't stand it. (That's rare). The one thing I've learned from taking a broad random approach to classical music is that there is a very good reason why they call it "core repetoire". Heard in the context of all the music around it, the generally popular works really are standouts. They don't replace all the rest, but they're definitely the icing on the cake.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

mud said:


> I think the concept of evergreens is not the same as a canon. It is more like music that is immutable (pardon the pun).


haha yes, it isn't but it is. It's the best part of the canon.


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## Tero (Jun 2, 2012)

I'm a big fan of Vivaldi, but I can almost not play Autumn of Four Seasons. The bouncy beat, like a horse ride, drives me nuts. And it's only minutes long!

The Hitchcock theme, Funeral for a Marionette, hardly ever gets played anymore.

Maybe more like warhorses.

I have a box with 100 British tunes. I got it for 3 specific tunes, cheap. There are numerous evergreens in there I can't stand.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

Tero said:


> I'm a big fan of Vivaldi, but I can almost not play Autumn of Four Seasons. The bouncy beat, like a horse ride, drives me nuts. And it's only minutes long!


I love that song (and yes, *takes glasses off*, I call it a _song_)! In fact, it is the first one I listen to when deciding whether a particular recording of The Four Seasons is going to be played well (it never is if they get that one wrong).


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## Tero (Jun 2, 2012)

OK, Mud, I still enjoy it played live. I like to look at the fiddlers.

But it's pretty much like Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca. I've memorized it, no need to play the CD.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

_Hear hear_


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

mud said:


> Perpetually popular works of classical music are called "evergreens": which ones would you give this distinction?


I take the meaning of 'evergreen' to be short & light pieces that are popular. So basically its like anything Andre Rieu plays (seriously). I can rattle a few off here:

- Any popular waltz/dance by J. Strauss Jnr
- Beethoven's Minuet in G, Fur Elise, Moonlight Sonata (1st movement)
- Lehar's Gold and Silver Waltz
- Mozart's Eine Kliene Nachtmusik
- The serenade attributed to Haydn (but actually by HOffmeister)
- Elgar's Pomp & Circumstance March #1, Chanson de matin
- Schubert's Serenade (Standchen) and Marche Militaire

So, stuff like that. Basically fun stuff. Have been entertainging generations (think of Liberace or Mantovani). Serious or more highbrow listeners traditionally look down at this sort of thing. But not always, and its more the kitschy image of the performers they probably don't like than the music itself. But I don't care, its good to have ear candy once in a while. LIfts the spirits a bit.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2012)

I would not have associated 'evergreen' with the classics more the pop/show/jazz kind of thing


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

Well, that is not what the name suggests. Actual evergreens are only kitschy when featured as Christmas trees, so it would be an unlikely analogy.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I think a lot of people think that "obscure" means good. They have a built in bias towards anything popular. Ultimately, that is as arbitrary a way of determining quality as just liking the things your friends like. Perhaps even less accurate.


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

Carmina Burana and Verdi Requiem, bits of these are used for all sorts of things.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2012)

*@mud & Hilltrol72*  In the world of classical music Warhorse is the term used more often than not as noted by Samurai in his post.(I am referring to reviews)
Also I agree wholeheartedly with bigshots post. If a piece of music becomes popular then the majority of people enjoy it so IMO it must be pretty good thus it can become a classical warhorse. look at the works played most often in the concert hall if you want to know what they are.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Tero said:


> I'm a big fan of Vivaldi, but I can almost not play Autumn of Four Seasons. The bouncy beat, like a horse ride, drives me nuts. And it's only minutes long!
> 
> The Hitchcock theme, Funeral for a Marionette, hardly ever gets played anymore.
> 
> ...


Gounod's Funeral March For a Marionette was very popular once.It was one of those works that fitted perfectly on a shellac 78rpm record.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2012)

Tero said:


> I'm a big fan of Vivaldi, but I can almost not play Autumn of Four Seasons. The bouncy beat, like a horse ride, drives me nuts. And it's only minutes long!
> 
> .


About 25-30 years ago the 4 seasons was the best selling work and had been been for ages I wonder what has taken it's place?


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

Andante said:


> About 25-30 years ago the 4 seasons was the best selling work and had been been for ages I wonder what has taken it's place?


Beethoven seems to have been on top as a composer in 2011 with his Diabelli variations, and symphonies. Although popular classical/crossover artists and compilation albums of _evergreens_ by various composers were at the top of the charts, as they are this year (Vivaldi is up there with The Piano Guys). I doubt this is a worldwide statistic, but it may indicate something of a trend.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

"Roll Out the Barrel": a classic evergreen if ever there was one...


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2012)

mud said:


> Beethoven seems to have been on top as a composer in 2011 with his Diabelli variations, and symphonies. Although popular classical/crossover artists and compilation albums of _evergreens_ by various composers were at the top of the charts, as they are this year (Vivaldi is up there with The Piano Guys). I doubt this is a worldwide statistic, but it may indicate something of a trend.


LvB, that is comforting however much as I love the old dog I must admit to placing the Goldbergs above the diabelli, but yeh Ludy rocks.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sid's description of Evergreens is the correct one .Tunes your mother liked, Waltz Of the Flowers, Morning,Rustle Of Spring,etc.
Richard Tauber operetta arias,the Blue Danube all good stuff but really music for people who don't like classical music==having said that I like them all!! That's why they are called Evergreens.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies fit here, especially 1 through 3, I suppose, as with Grieg's In The Hall of the Mountain King and Sibelius' Finlandia. A ton of people know them even if they don't really know them. I suppose Brahms' Wiegenlied also fits. Lately, the Dies Irae from Mozart's Requiem has been popping up everywhere, from The Incredibles to commercials. 

In the '70s Satie's Gymnopedie No. 1 was huge. I don't hear it as much, but people still recognize it.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

I don't think some people are getting the idea,Finlandia is not an Evergreen it's a warhorse.
More Evergreens include: the Warsaw Concerto, Rubinstein's Melody in F,the Sugar Plumb Fairy,the Magic Fire Dance,waltz from Gayeneh,galop from the Comedians, songs such as Core Ngrato,Santa Lucia and Finiculi Funicula, The Skaters' Waltz, Entry of the Gladiators,all Kreisler's pieces.etc,etc.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> I don't think some people are getting the idea,Finlandia is not an Evergreen it's a warhorse.
> More Evergreens include: the Warsaw Concerto, Rubinstein's Melody in F,the Sugar Plumb Fairy,the Magic Fire Dance,waltz from Gayeneh,galop from the Comedians, songs such as Core Ngrato,Santa Lucia and Finiculi Funicula, The Skaters' Waltz, Entry of the Gladiators,all Kreisler's pieces.etc,etc.


_MY_ definition of 'evergreen' derives directly from _ever green_ - meaning that, given a little time between hearings, the music never goes stale for me. You are certainly welcome to your definition - but that stuff is what I call 'classical pop'.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

moody said:


> I don't think some people are getting the idea,Finlandia is not an Evergreen it's a warhorse.


I was thinking more of the Big Tune from Finlandia. But I'm willing to put that horse back in the stable.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

Lollipops and creampuffs are other terms of endearment for the accessible classics.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

bigshot said:


> I think a lot of people think that "obscure" means good. They have a built in bias towards anything popular. Ultimately, that is as arbitrary a way of determining quality as just liking the things your friends like. Perhaps even less accurate.


Right. But, of course, this response we see in your post is sometimes given to people who have simply found a lot of good music that isn't as popular. There are all kinds of reasons for good music not to be successful. All the operas that weren't successfully produced, that we'll never hear... There must be a lot of those; it was one of the toughest businesses in music, after all. Even music that received enthusiastic response and critical acclaim in it's time, that we don't typically hear about today, comes to mind. Just look at Henselt. Very successful composer, wrote a piano concerto that everyone wanted to play, even big contemporary names like Chopin and Liszt who did play it, and we don't hear much of him today. Henselt even wrote pieces that are evergreens for me.

Surely, some want that kind of an identity, of the one who discovers all this hidden and unappreciated treasure, and there can be a certain charm to rejecting the classics, if you would just hypothetically remove from your mind just how masterfully written the standard repertoire is. I can see why. Also, I can see that in my younger self. Almost like a counter-culture within classical music fans. They can be right and wrong at the same time.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

Lukecash12 said:


> Right. But, of course, this response we see in your post is sometimes given to people who have simply found a lot of good music that isn't as popular. There are all kinds of reasons for good music not to be successful. All the operas that weren't successfully produced, that we'll never hear... There must be a lot of those; it was one of the toughest businesses in music, after all. Even music that received enthusiastic response and critical acclaim in it's time, that we don't typically hear about today, comes to mind. Just look at Henselt. Very successful composer, wrote a piano concerto that everyone wanted to play, even big contemporary names like Chopin and Liszt who did play it, and we don't hear much of him today. Henselt even wrote pieces that are evergreens for me.
> 
> Surely, some want that kind of an identity, of the one who discovers all this hidden and unappreciated treasure, and there can be a certain charm to rejecting the classics, if you would just hypothetically remove from your mind just how masterfully written the standard repertoire is. I can see why. Also, I can see that in my younger self. Almost like a counter-culture within classical music fans. They can be right and wrong at the same time.


In this context though I think bigshot is saying that people use obscurity as a measure of sophistication against popular works, as if those were only likeable because they are less sophisticated somehow. This may be true of pop music in general, but with classical music the evergreens are standards. And if they lead more people to listen, then eventually there will be more evergreens in the forest. Now why many modern composers cannot see the forest for the trees is a wonder. They are trying to make artificial plants or something.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> _MY_ definition of 'evergreen' derives directly from _ever green_ - meaning that, given a little time between hearings, the music never goes stale for me. You are certainly welcome to your definition - but that stuff is what I call 'classical pop'.


Not really,the word comes from the horticultural world of course."A plant that retains its verdure throughout all the seasons".
So an evergreen tune retains its charm throughout the years".
Which appears to be exactly what you've written.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

bigshot said:


> I think a lot of people think that "obscure" means good. They have a built in bias towards anything popular. Ultimately, that is as arbitrary a way of determining quality as just liking the things your friends like. Perhaps even less accurate.


Usually means nobody wants to know,


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I would add to what moody was saying that many 'serious' composers of the past where bankrolled by these 'evergreens.' Elgar's most famous piece during his time was something called Chanson de Matin (or Amour?). Anyway, this is his most arranged piece, it must have earnt him much more than his 'serious' works. Others around the turn of the 20th century turned out a good deal of 'salon music' as well (eg. Saint-Saens, not to speak of Sarasate).

Composers where not always good judges of what would be a hit and what wouldn't. Rachmaninov sold his famous prelude (the one in C sharp minor, I think) for a trifling one-off sum to publishers, signing away his right to royalties. Sibelius did the same with his _Valse Triste_. Both lived to regret it, retaining royalty rights for those would have made them overnight millionaires. Sibelius could have not needed his special honorary pension the Finnish government bestowed upon him, and Rach could have not needed to earn money by giving concerts.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2012)

Not to mention Bolero which Ravel thought very little of but is usually top of the pops and IMO the best crescendo ever written


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

samurai said:


> Beethoven's *Fifth *and Tchaikovsky's *Sixth* *{"Pathetique"} * along with much of the canon of J.S. Bach. I have also seen the term "warhorses" used to depict these types of popular works.


They are also, somewhat pejoratively, called "Chestnuts."


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

mud said:


> I got the impression from albums such as "clarinet evergreens" that this term is more relative than warhorses.


'Evergreen' must be a newish P.R. Term. I've heard, all my life, "Warhorses" and "Chestnuts," neither meant to be at all flattering


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

PetrB said:


> 'Evergreen' must be a newish P.R. Term. I've heard, all my life, "Warhorses" and "Chestnuts," neither meant to be at all flattering


I like it. Because in that sense it would describe why they remain popular in spite of being criticized for it.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2012)

PetrB said:


> They are also, somewhat pejoratively, called "Chestnuts."


huh you wouldn't know the difference between your Chest and your Nuts.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PetrB said:


> 'Evergreen' must be a newish P.R. Term. I've heard, all my life, "Warhorses" and "Chestnuts," neither meant to be at all flattering


No.I had 78's with what were called pot-pourris of Evergreens played by all sorts of strange groups,e.g. rhe J.H.Squires Celeste Octet,etc.


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