# Does the biography of a performer have an effect on how you listen?



## BalloinMaschera

Walther Gieseking was reportedly a biggot and Nazi

Mikhail Pletnev's possible penchant for young(ish) boys... apparently one of Classical Music's worts kept secrets...

Wagner loved all things that celebrated supposed Teutonic values and campaigned against Jews...

Elisabeth Schwarzkopf once applied to join the Nazi Party...

I for one, did suddenly listen differently to Gieseking recordings, when I did some research and realized he was quite the baddy.

Your thoughts?


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## elgar's ghost

Depending on the circumstances some reputations will be tarnished at worst and some shattered for ever. In popular music Leadbelly did time for shooting someone dead but listeners (including me) instead remember him as a pivotal figure in Amercan folk music history - it's never Leadbelly The Killer. Gary Glitter on the other hand will be vilified for ever because of the nature of his acts - and so he should. In the classical world I was dismayed when I read somewhere that Camille Saint-Saens' frequent trips to North Africa were allegedly made in order to stimulate not just his musical creative juices. If true then it amounted to sex tourism verging on the predatory - unsavoury at the very least, beyond contempt at its very worst.


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## Aramis

> Does the biography of a performer have an effect on how you listen?


Sure, if the recording was made by artists connected with Nazi movement I listen to it with pants on my head, carrot in hand and between the tracks I stand up and shout three times FORGIVE ME FOR LISTENING TO WAGNER AND KARAJAN ALL NATIONS AND RACES HARMED DURING WORLD WAR TWO


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## Polednice

It probably depends on how much I like their music already. If I think it's brilliant, then their bad reputations are meaningless; if their music was already crappy, then it's no wonder they were such bad-asses.


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## TxllxT

I often wonder why so many 19th century composers ended their lives with having acquired syphilis (Schubert, Smetana). When I told this biographical fact about Smetana to some Czech classical music lovers, they just were in shock & unwilling to believe it...


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## Ukko

TxllxT said:


> I often wonder why so many 19th century composers ended their lives with having acquired syphilis (Schubert, Smetana). When I told this biographical fact about Smetana to some Czech classical music lovers, they just were in shock & unwilling to believe it...


If you had acquainted them with how wide-spread and numerous those 'acquisitions' were, their dismay might have been less.


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## tdc

I've always thought the reason Szymanowski wasn't more popular, was because of his known relationship at one time with a 15 year old boy. I can't see any other reason why he wouldn't be as popular as someone as say Tchaikovsky. But how do we know Tchaikovsky didn't have similar relationships? We don't. 

Even if we've read historical facts, I don't think we fully understand the context of the times these composers lived in, and we shouldn't try to judge them with our modern 'politically correct' views etc. Reading a composers bio does not mean one actually knows that composer. I try as much as possible to separate the artist from the art.


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## Aramis

tdc said:


> I've always thought the reason Szymanowski wasn't more popular, was because of his known relationship at one time with a 15 year old boy. I can't see any other reason why he wouldn't be as popular as someone as say Tchaikovsky


A strange theory. How could it mean anything? Most people hear the music before get to know something about composer's life. Could anyone fall in love with music but then learn of such fact and decide not to listen to music written by such person? Unless you think that this unpopularity has it's roots in this fact and though it has little meaning now, it had some during his lifetime which is the reason of why he is unpopular today.


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## Delicious Manager

Many composers and artists were quite distasteful as human beings for a variety of reasons. If we discounted the work of all these people, I suspect we'd have very little left. Just a few examples:

*Beethoven* was a thoroughly unpleasant, socially-challenged and unhygienic person.
*Lully* was a predatory homosexual and, by all accounts, a very nasty piece of work indeed, reportedly punching a pregnant singer in the stomach to make her miscarry so she didn't miss performing in his operas.
*Mascagni* was a member of the Fascist Party and an avid supporter of Mussolini.
*Stradella* was a habitual womaniser.
*Tchaikovsky* DID have an affair with a young boy - his nephew Vladimir Davidov (31 years his junior), known affectionately as 'Bob'.


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## tdc

Aramis said:


> A strange theory. How could it mean anything? Most people hear the music before get to know something about composer's life. Could anyone fall in love with music but then learn of such fact and decide not to listen to music written by such person? Unless you think that this unpopularity has it's roots in this fact and though it has little meaning now, it had some during his lifetime which is the reason of why he is unpopular today.


I think I started thinking that simply because 1) Unlike any other composers I've read about on Wikipedia, his relationship with the younger male is one of the first things they draw attention to. Other composers who have allegedly had such relationships are more in the closet about it, and it is not really discussed openly on their wikipedia page.

2) I personally consider him to be an amazing, brilliant and innovative composer, and I don't really understand the relative lack of enthusiasm about him on these forums. His Violin Concerto no. 1 was not enthusiastically supported in our top VC thread, despite being very worthy of making the list, and he is yet to have a work make it into our classical music project either, despite having in my view many works worthy of making it in.


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## GoneBaroque

There are any number of musicians, composers and performers, you would probably not care to associate with on a personal. Does this in any way detract from their qualities as artists? That is a very personal decision, but for me their private lives and the results of their labors are distinct and separate. Many p[rominent people in all fields are despicable as individuals.

Rob


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## elgar's ghost

*Beethoven* was a thoroughly unpleasant, socially-challenged and unhygienic person.

Really? I was under the impression that frequent hair washing in cold water without drying may have contributed to his deafness - of course, that's only the top part of him...


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## mmsbls

I can't speak for others, but I'm not sure if I ever heard something biographical about a composer or performer before I heard the music they composed or performed. Wagner was obviously an awful person, but his music is sublime. I can easily separate the composer/performer from the music. 

The only exception might be if I heard some strongly negative things about a living performer, I might choose to purchase/listen to other performers instead.


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## Aramis

tdc said:


> 2) I personally consider him to be an amazing, brilliant and innovative composer, and I don't really understand the relative lack of enthusiasm about him on these forums


Neither do I. But I honestly doubt that it's caused by his love affairs. It just happens that some composers remain under appreciated despite all their brilliance and value of their output.


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## Il_Penseroso

Toscanini once said : "To Richard Strauss the composer I take off my hat, to Richard Strauss the man I put it back on again !"
What the great maestro said is enough for me ... in all cases ... musicians are human beings after all and "We all know there's good and evil everywhere" ...


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## Ukko

Re Szymanowski


Aramis said:


> Neither do I. But I honestly doubt that it's caused by his love affairs. It just happens that some composers remain under appreciated despite all their brilliance and value of their output.


Yep; and if that brilliance and value is not accessible without effort.... Personally, if the guy's only composition had been "Mythes", he would rate high with me.


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## Sofronitsky

I remember when I found out Wagner loved to dress in women's lingerie and prance around the room, and that he had a special place in his house dedicated to this purpose. Is it weird that I was more affected by that knowledge than the knowledge that he hated Jews? 

I honestly don't listen to Wagner's music very often, but whenever they play one of his operas on the radio, I always picture him in ladies underwear directing some of the most serious music ever written.


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## Polednice

Personally, I don't think a bit of pederasty should be grouped with punching a pregnant woman.


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## Delicious Manager

I just want to chip-in with something about Richard Strauss. He has often been accused of being a Nazi sympathiser, but this is unreasonable. Strauss's own daughter-in-law was Jewish and, by definition, so were his grandchildren from that marriage. He condemned the Nazis' targetting and victimisation of Jews and was quite vitriolic about individual high-profile Nazis. He never joined the Nazi Party and also refused to compose some new music for a production of Shakespeare's _A Midsummer Night's Dream_ when the Nazis wanted to replace the Jewish-born Mendelssohn's music. At the time of Hilter's election to power in 1933 (and we have to remember he was ELECTED), Strauss was an old man of nearly 70. Given these factors and his need to protect members of his own family, Strauss tried to do good from within the system without actually embracing it. He helped several Jewish musicians who might otherwise have been worse off without his intervention and found the whole Nazi system an insult to German dignity. I think it's time we gave the guy a break.

As far as Elisabeth Schwarzkopf is concerned, it was my understanding that she and her family had quite a hard time under the Nazis because they too did not approve of them and their policies.


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## Meaghan

Sofronitsky said:


> I remember when I found out Wagner loved to dress in women's lingerie and prance around the room, and that he had a special place in his house dedicated to this purpose. Is it weird that I was more affected by that knowledge than the knowledge that he hated Jews?


The prancing around in women's lingerie bit almost makes him _more_ palatable, in a way.


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## Polednice

Meaghan said:


> The prancing around in women's lingerie bit almost makes him _more_ palatable, in a way.


Yes. It certainly softens the blow of his raging hatred for Jews! (no sarcasm, btw  )


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## Vaneyes

Delicious Manager said:


> As far as Elisabeth Schwarzkopf is concerned, it was my understanding that she and her family had quite a hard time under the Nazis because they too did not approve of them and their policies.


Lebrecht quite disagrees, referring to Schwarzkopf and Karajan as Legge's Nazi catches.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aokRKiFTNkWY&refer=culture


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## Ukko

Vaneyes said:


> Lebrecht quite disagrees, referring to Schwarzkopf and Karajan as Legge's Nazi catches.
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aokRKiFTNkWY&refer=culture


I hadn't run across that name for awhile - since abandoning rmcr in fact. I'm somewhat surprised that his opinion has standing with you.


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## Sofronitsky

Polednice said:


> Yes. It certainly softens the blow of his raging hatred for Jews! (no sarcasm, btw  )


I suppose our tastes differ! You would prefer your composer to dress in women's lingerie, whereas I would prefer my composer to punch pregnant women occasionally.


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## BalloinMaschera

I do understand that Biography does not change the beauty of the music per se...
however, when I hear (Lohengrin)

Soll ich euch erst der Drangsal Kunde sagen,

die deutsches Land so oft aus Osten traf?

In fernster Mark hieß't Weib und Kind ihr beten:

»Herr Gott, bewahr uns vor der Ungarn Wut!«
Was deutsches Land heißt, stelle Kampfes Scharen,

dann schmäht wohl Niemand mehr das deutsche Reich.

(_DIE SACHSEN an die Waffen schlagend._)
Wohlauf! Mit Gott für deutschen Reiches Ehr'!

...

I still appreciate the music, but I do *listen* differently, given Wagner's penchant for the Aryan...


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## Vazgen

Delicious Manager said:


> I just want to chip-in with something about Richard Strauss. He has often been accused of being a Nazi sympathiser, but this is unreasonable. Strauss's own daughter-in-law was Jewish and, by definition, so were his grandchildren from that marriage.


True, Strauss wasn't a member of the Nazi Party, but he cozied up to them far more than what some might consider proper. He considered himself apolitical, and the extent to which his indifference to the abuses of the Nazi regime constitutes collaboration is a complicated question.



> At the time of Hilter's election to power in 1933 (and we have to remember he was ELECTED),


No he wasn't. He was appointed Chancellor by President von Hindenburg.



> Given these factors and his need to protect members of his own family, Strauss tried to do good from within the system without actually embracing it. He helped several Jewish musicians who might otherwise have been worse off without his intervention and found the whole Nazi system an insult to German dignity. I think it's time we gave the guy a break.


I have problems with the notion that Strauss's careerism somehow protected his family. I think he deluded himself into thinking he was important and influential. After all, he drove to the gates of a concentration camp under the wholly mistaken assumption that he could just say the word and have his in-laws released.

Essentially, I echo what tdc said: we have to separate the art from the artist. It's a matter of degree, obviously, but there are always extra-musical matters that affect the way we hear a composer's music. And the 20th century was a minefield when it comes to the politicization of music and composers. Whether Strauss or Shostakovich were too cozy with the regimes who gave them influential positions shouldn't affect the way we appreciate their music.

It now appears Webern may have been the most thoroughgoing Nazi sympathizer in music. He wasn't a party member or a powerful functionary, and had initially criticized the Nazis. But by the outbreak of WWII, probably to curry favor with the regime and get his works performed, he was supportive of the high command. As fond as I am of Webern's music, I find this nauseating.

-Vaz


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## tdc

Vazgen said:


> It now appears Webern may have been the most thoroughgoing Nazi sympathizer in music. He wasn't a party member or a powerful functionary, and had initially criticized the Nazis. But by the outbreak of WWII, probably to curry favor with the regime and get his works performed, he was supportive of the high command. As fond as I am of Webern's music, I find this nauseating.
> 
> -Vaz


In a Psychology class I took in college, we talked about studies that suggest that the majority of 'regular' or 'good' people placed in Germany at the time - given certain circumstances - may have become nazi sympathizers, or at least shown signs of obedience to some extent during WWII. Its easy to sit from the comfort of our homes and think otherwise. But placed in similar circumstances its really quite impossible for us to know how we would've reacted.

Look up Stanley Milgram's _Behavioral Study of Obedience_ and it might give some a fresh perspective on war crimes of this nature, and who the kind of people were committing them.

"_Stanley Milgram's classic research into obedience was in large part inspired by the World War II crimes of the Nazis and those who obeyed them. As you will see in the opening paragraph of his article, his experiment was part of a body of research that was conducted to try to answer the question, Who were the people who assisted in the construction and operation of the Nazi gas chambers that accounted for the deaths of millions of innocents? Who were these people who placed obedience ahead of life and humanity? Is their psychology different from yours or mine? Is their psychology foreign to you and me? Or could these people be you and me?_"

I found this excerpt in PDF format. You can find it at this link - scroll about half way down the page:

http://www.google.ca/search?q=psychology%20study%20nazi%20gas%20chambers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np


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## Jeremy Marchant

I think a little less judgment would be in order.
No, actually, a _lot _less judgment.


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## Sid James

I think Richard Strauss was more of a careerist than anything else, that's probably one of the major reasons why he stayed in Germany after the Nazis took over (apart from his family ties there, which was undoubtedly a huge issue for the man as well). I remember reading a quote by Mr Strauss to the effect that he decided to stay in Germany because it had like about a dozen opera houses in which he could work in, whereas (at that time) the USA had only two. Strauss' decision to conduct at Bayreuth after Toscanini had left as a protest against the assumption of Nazi rule kind of confirms the man's sentiments as to maintaining a solid career base in his home country, despite the fact that it was difficult to morally, ethically or whatever justify this...


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## violadude

I often never pay attention to a composer's biography. I know a lot of people might disagree with me but reading anyones biography to me is just like reading people magazine, it's just a bunch of stuff about someone's personal life that I really couldn't care less about. The only thing I'll read a biography for is to find out a composers opinion about other composers of the time, or their thoughts about music, or their music or ideas about stuff. But as far as reading information about who they married, where they lived, what happened at whatever point in their life, it's all pretty much a snooze fest for me.


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## Vazgen

Never pay attention?

It's one thing not to let things about a composer's personal life or their political views affect your appreciation of his work. But the info about _what happened at whatever point in their life_ could have some bearing on what they composed.

-Vaz


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## violadude

Vazgen said:


> Never pay attention?
> 
> It's one thing not to let things about a composer's personal life or their political views affect your appreciation of his work. But the info about _what happened at whatever point in their life_ could have some bearing on what they composed.
> 
> -Vaz


I realize that, but I'm just not that interested. I just like listening to the piece of music for the music.


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## BalloinMaschera

I suppose what I was trying to illustrate in the original posting is that...

I would probably view, interpret and be affected differently by a painting if I knew the artist was either (for example) a Nazi or conversely perished in a concentration camp... or a womanizer or a communist, champion for human rights etc...

so why would the same not apply to music?

surely to a civilized person with a formative mind, it would...

it doesn't necessarily make the music or art better or worse- but I would like to think that biogaphy *does* matter... because music and art is a connector and a humbling vehicle that often touches us and puts us as individuals and as a society in context. Thus, the biography of a musician or artist will sometimes make their performance or composition move me in a way that I would not have been had I not known their circumstances and legacy (be that, perhaps in part, of infamy- or not).


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## misterjones

I'm finding the Frank Zappa biography I'm reading very informative with respect to his music along the lines of his influences (including Varese and Stravinsky) and certain pop music technical innovations, which I may not have known about otherwise. Whether he wrote a particular piece/song because of something that happened in his personal life is interesting, but much less important.

(Frank Zappa understandably may be frowned upon at this site, but anyone as a teenager who literally empties his pockets to buy a copy of The Complete Works of Edgar Varese Vol.1 can't be all bad.)


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