# Prog rock and classical music



## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

I love prog rock! I had a long periode only exploring prog.. Then Jazz, and now classical.

There are some less good combinations of classical and prog in my oppinion....But ther ar some good example like the french Ange. And a lot of italin prog acts makes the classical influences *within prog*, not as a glaze. 
Any opinions or experienses? My all time favourite is Genesis.


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## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

Listen to foxtrot, the whole record, but specific "supper`s ready" I am not a master in how works ar composed, but just listen to it! Maybe especially if you know something about composing.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Prog rock was the music that captured my imagination as a teenager in the mid 70s. The first record I bought was Yes-Fragile. I was also into ELP, Genesis, Kansas, Jeff Beck's Blow By Blow/Wired. A few years later in the early 80s I got into Gentle Giant, probably my favorite prog band. GG wrote very sophisticated music with a lot of classical influences. Their keyboard player Kerry Minnear is brilliant!

After that it was the jazz oriented stuff. Pat Metheny, Allan Holdsworth, John McLaughlin, Zappa, Jean Luc Ponty, Weather Report, Tribal Tech, and many others.

In recent years I discovered the Canterbury bands like Soft Machine, Matching Mole, Egg, Hatfield & The North, and National Health. These last three bands featured another brilliant keyboardist/composer, Dave Stewart. After this he went on to play with the Bruford band.

I should also mention Phil Collins's other band, Brand X. A great prog/fusion instrumental band.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Oskaar, being that you are from Norway, are you a fan of Terje Rypdal? I have a few of his records.


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## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

starthrower said:


> Oskaar, being that you are from Norway, are you a fan of Terje Rypdal? I have a few of his records.


I have not heard very much of his music, but what I have heard is great.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I have his Rarum: Selected Recordings CD, which has a lot of good stuff. ECM is supposed to be releasing a box set of some of his earlier recordings some time soon.

I also have the Rypdal/Vitous/DeJohnette CD which is more ambient/dreamy sounding.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

if you like prog and canterbury and rypdal (and jazz too), Hapless child composed by Michael Mantler is a really great album, though sadly not well known:


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Mantler w/ Wyatt and Rypdal... interesting! I have a couple of Wyatt's more recent albums including Cuckooland, and Comicopera.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

When I was a kid I listened to Art Rock and then my horizons widened and I realized that Art Rock was neither.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Well you're obviously too sophisticated for this crowd.


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## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

I love whyatts Rock bottom


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Yeah, Rock Bottom is a classic! Wyatt is such a talented and imaginative artist.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I can still enjoy the 70s 'heyday' works of the usual suspects but I prefer post-Greg Lake King Crimson and Van Der Graaf Generator - there was an element of dark menace to a lot of their output which appealed to me more than the lacy-sleeved world of early 70s Curved Air, Genesis and Yes.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Any Dixie Dregs fans? Here's a great tune that has some rock, funk, and classical elements.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

bigshot said:


> When I was a kid I listened to Art Rock and then my horizons widened and I realized that Art Rock was neither.


Haven't you said this exact same thing before?


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I like Pink Floyd (in particular, I like Dave Gilmour solos and harmonies, for some reason they get me :tiphat. For example, this is the kind of things I love from him:






(from 0:00 to 1:05, one of those Gilmour moments...)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> Yeah, Rock Bottom is a classic! Wyatt is such a talented and imaginative artist.


yeah, Rock Bottom is a fantastic album, and love his voice too.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

pink floyd and whatts are the king.


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

I live and breath Classical Music, but "Supper's Ready" by Genesis has recently blown me away. I believe that it is the greatest rock song, ever. Repeated listens reinforce my wonder. The entire song is amazing, but the last 5 minutes lift this masterpiece into something else altogether. Discovering this music has been an incredible experience for me.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Muddy said:


> I live and breath Classical Music, but "Supper's Ready" by Genesis has recently blown me away. I believe that it is the greatest rock song, ever. Repeated listens reinforce my wonder. The entire song is amazing, but the last 5 minutes lift this masterpiece into something else altogether. Discovering this music has been an incredible experience for me.


One of the better examples, but there are others too. This is just the tip of the iceberg. :devil:


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## The Deacon (Jan 14, 2018)

Speaking of Ryptal, his father was a composer.

I have two or three straight orchestral works composed by Terje on tape. I don't believe they were ever put to lp/cd.

They are excellent!



....
If you are talking orchestra merging with prog, or progband VS orchestra battles:

Jon Lord -Sarabande (one of my all time fav lps)
-Windows
-Gemini Suite

Deep Purple - Concerto for Group & Orchestra

Seigal Schwall Band (not prog) (I'm sure I spelled it wrong) on Deutsch Grammophone with Ozawa.

Moody Blues - Days Of Future Passed (not exactly prog as commonly accept as - this is just popsong,ballad and one freakbeatish track sequing into straight orchestral)

There are others, some rather obscure.


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## The Deacon (Jan 14, 2018)

As to classical INSIDE prog tracks, there are legion examples.

Many , say like 2 or three by Renaissance, go uncredited.('Running Hard' Jehan Alain 'Litanies')


Best-known would be ELP: Copland,Ginastera,Parry,Bartock,... "knife Edge" opening part is Yanachek 'Sinfonetta for Orchestra'


How many prog classical ripoffs of "hall of mountain king" alone. Sheesh!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I started out with Russian classical music as a young child but by my teen years was looking for something more relevant to modern life. Growing up in the era of MAD (mutually assured destruction), the precision violence and terror of King Crimson seemed just right. Also liked Soft Machine, Henry Cow and Van der Graaf Generator. The large scale multimovement instrumental works of these bands got me back into classical music by the end of high school.


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## The Deacon (Jan 14, 2018)

This thread is devolving to a thread which is merely....what prog bands you like.

The origional poster asks of "combinations of classical with prog"; of symphonic influence on prog; of classical within specific prog tracks.
Yet even he himself is off-subject because his quoted bands , Genesis and Ange , have never INCORPORATED classical pieces into the prog.

Others mention King Crimson, VDGG, Pink Floyd ,Canterbury bands, Soft Machine and Wyatt. These people/bands have NOTHING to do with this subject.


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2018)

The Enid: In the region of the Summer Stars. Robert John Godfrey was an okay pianist.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

The Deacon said:


> This thread is devolving to a thread which is merely....what prog bands you like.
> 
> The origional poster asks of "combinations of classical with prog"; of symphonic influence on prog; of classical within specific prog tracks.
> Yet even he himself is off-subject because his quoted bands , Genesis and Ange , have never INCORPORATED classical pieces into the prog.
> ...


I think your comment is to gernal to say these bands are not of the type- probably not PF but the output of the rest is varied and does included classically influenced Prog


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Pretty old thread to revive.


I am a huge prog fan. Prog takes up about 40% of my listening, classical about 40% and jazz and fusion, the remaining 20%.


While classic prog (YES, Genesis, GG, VDGG, PFM, Banco, etc) occupy a lot of my collection, I am also a huge fan of the avant garde side of prog. Bands that are more influenced by mid to late 20th century, and contemporary composers, than the.

Instead of mostly listening to Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Mahler, Beethoven, etc, as the classic bands did. These guys were listening to Schoenberg, Webern, Carter, Berlio, Ligeti, etc,

Bands like:

Henry Cow
Thinking Plague
Aranis
Univers Zero
Art Zoyd
Samla Mannas Mana 

Etc, etc.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

The Deacon said:


> Others mention King Crimson, VDGG, Pink Floyd ,Canterbury bands, Soft Machine and Wyatt. These people/bands have NOTHING to do with this subject.


I beg to disagree. Some King Crimson is like listening to Bartok SQ.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2018)

The Deacon said:


> This thread is devolving to a thread which is merely....what prog bands you like.
> 
> The origional poster asks of "combinations of classical with prog"; of symphonic influence on prog; of classical within specific prog tracks.
> Yet even he himself is off-subject because his quoted bands , *Genesis *and Ange , *have never INCORPORATED classical pieces into the prog.*
> ...


"This thread" barely got going over 5 years (!), so it's hard to say what it has "devolved" into.

It may be true that Genesis didn't _incorporate _classical compositions into their work, but the OP didn't specify this, seeming instead to ask about a more general connection between the two. _Firth of Fifth _would be an obvious example of Genesis imitating classical.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)




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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

MacLeod said:


> _Firth of Fifth _would be an obvious example of Genesis imitating classical.


Or from the same album _After the ordeal_.

Pink Floyd worked together with an avant garde composer to create the Atom Heart Mother suite.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The Deacon said:


> This thread is devolving to a thread which is merely....what prog bands you like.
> 
> The origional poster asks of "combinations of classical with prog"; of symphonic influence on prog; of classical within specific prog tracks.
> Yet even he himself is off-subject because his quoted bands , Genesis and Ange , have never INCORPORATED classical pieces into the prog.
> ...


This is incorrect. The connections to classical music for these bands are deeper than you are looking - and you've been citing bands that aren't even prog (Deep Purple?, Moody Blues? etc.) Henry Cow _is_ classical chamber music written by classically trained composers. King Crimson wrote thematically unified multi-movement cycles (Lizard, the first side of Islands, Lark's Tongues in Aspic) with a clear expressive trajectory, which is the essence of structure in 19thc and tonal 20thc music. (So did Soft Machine, by the way - see Virtually I-IV from "4".) Lizard also used what is essentially a romantic orchestra, with a few substitutions: flute, oboe, English Horn, s, a, t, and b saxes, trumpet, trombone, timpani, strings (mellotron recorded samples), piano, guitars, bass. Islands adds classically trained soprano voices, bass flute, double bass played with a bow and a string section to the instruments listed for Lizard. In fact, the only standard classical instruments they didn't use were horn and bassoon. King Crimson's Larks' Tongues in Aspic is a thematically unified multi-movement cycle with the same dark-to-light, struggle-to-victory plot as Beethoven's Fifth and countless other classical works. Crimson also played lengthy instrumental works in whole tone scales.


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## The Deacon (Jan 14, 2018)

No one mentions the obvious one: The Nice?

They covered Sibelius,Bernstein.


....
Pell Mell -Rhapsody , Can Can (Dvorak)

Renaissance (Debussy, Prokofiev...."Kiev" is 3rd movement Shostakovitch Sym 8, Rachmoninov C sharp min prelude, Albinoni adaggio in G min)

Mastermind - ride of the Valkyrie
New Trolls - monte Calvo
Solarplexus - danse Russe
Aunt Mary - hall of mt king
Mike Quatro JamBand - (Rachmoninov)
Allan Parsons Project - (Debussy)
Beggar's Opera - Raymond
Shaggy - Lessons for Beginners
Harbour (Debussy engulfed cathedral)
ELP (Mussorgsky)
Love Sculpture (Khatchaturian Sabre Dance (10 minute wild electric guitar version)
Fireballet - night on bald mountain


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## The Deacon (Jan 14, 2018)

Edward: I am taking this NOW in the strictest sense: prog tracks directly ripping-off the classics.

Not things like Procol Harum Live With Edmonton Symphony Orchestra or Wakeman at Trois Rivieres (But, I do seem to recall Wakiepoos did cover something classical at one point - but this was rare for him)
..................

Deep Purple & Moody Blues NOT prog????
"Book of Talysein" & third lp are textbook protoprog (some claim "In Rock" also)


"To Our Children's Children's Children" not prog????


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## The Deacon (Jan 14, 2018)

Of course classical is the "golden thread that runs through" much progressive rock.
That goes without saying.

(To this I would add that the most shining observation by Macan in his book is that SECULAR music plays a big part in many prog epics - like ending of Supper's Ready or the end of Gentle Giant's "Three friends" lp)


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> "This thread" barely got going over 5 years (!), so it's hard to say what it has "devolved" into.
> 
> It may be true that Genesis didn't _incorporate _classical compositions into their work, but the OP didn't specify this, seeming instead to ask about a more general connection between the two. _Firth of Fifth _would be an obvious example of Genesis imitating classical.


That is the way I read the OP, also.

He was not asking for bands that specifically played rock versions of classical pieces, or quoted classical music, but was looking at the classical influences in prog.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The Deacon said:


> Edward: I am taking this NOW in the strictest sense: prog tracks directly ripping-off the classics.
> 
> Not things like Procol Harum Live With Edmonton Symphony Orchestra or Wakeman at Trois Rivieres (But, I do seem to recall Wakiepoos did cover something classical at one point - but this was rare for him)
> ..................
> ...


That's fine, but I don't think that's what Oskaar was asking for in the OP. The way I read it, he isn't interested in music that rips off specific classical pieces or superficially imitates classical style traits, but rather in music where the classical elements are organically integral to the music. Did I get that right Oskaar?

The Moody Blues were the Beach Boys with pretensions and sticks up their *****, IMO.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I used to listen to a lot of prof rock and still listen to bands like Pineapple Thief. However, for many years, I have found that post-rock is much more to my tastes. It shares some elements of classical music (especially more minimalist classical music) and I love the soundscspes that bands like Explosions in the Sky and This Will Detroy You create. Some of the more obscure Scandinavian bands sound almost Sibelian (with guitar, though). I'm a massive fan of artists such as Maybeshewill (now sadly split up), Cloudkicker, Russian Circles, Godspeed To Black Emperor, Exxasens, etc. Anything from the more ambient post-rock bands (Hammock) to post-metal such as Isis or Pelican. The loud / quiet dynamic is summat I really love in classical music too. If you like the track below you'll enjoy most post-rock.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> The Moody Blues were the Beach Boys with pretensions and sticks up their *****, IMO.


To discuss Prog Rock and pretensions in the same sentence?? Scandalous! I like a great deal of Prog, and pretension can be understood as an essential engine in its creation--even part of its charm .


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I used to listen to a lot of prog rock and still listen to bands like Pineapple Thief. However, for many years, I have found that post-rock is much more to my tastes. It shares some elements of classical music (especially more minimalist classical music) and I love the soundscapes that bands like Explosions in the Sky and This Will Detroy You create. Some of the more obscure Scandinavian bands sound almost Sibelian (with guitar, though). I'm a massive fan of artists such as Maybeshewill (now sadly split up), Cloudkicker, Russian Circles, Godspeed You Black Emperor, Exxasens, etc. Anything from the more ambient post-rock bands (Hammock) to post-metal such as Isis or Pelican. The loud / quiet dynamic is summat I really love in classical music too. If you like the track below you'll no doubt like much from the genre.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> That's fine, but I don't think that's what Oskaar was asking for in the OP. The way I read it, he isn't interested in music that rips off specific classical pieces or superficially imitates classical style traits, but rather in music where the classical elements are organically integral to the music. Did I get that right Oskaar?
> 
> The Moody Blues were the Beach Boys with pretensions and sticks up their *****, IMO.


Right on Brother. my wife endlessly plays the moodies am I am over it - she likes Justin


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I've been listening to the last two Thinking Plague albums. Decline and Fall, and Hoping Against Hope.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2018)

starthrower said:


> I've been listening to the last two Thinking Plague albums. Decline and Fall, and Hoping Against Hope.


I've got all their albums; absolutely love them. But....the new one hasn't really grabbed me. How do you rate it?


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## The Deacon (Jan 14, 2018)

dogen said:


> I've got all their albums; absolutely love them. But....the new one hasn't really grabbed me. How do you rate it?


You have all their CDS. Not albums.

I have Thinking Plague "Moonsongs" LP '86. (It is in the collectro with Laurent Thibault lp on one side and Third Ear Band "Experiences" on the other.)


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

dogen said:


> I've got all their albums; absolutely love them. But....the new one hasn't really grabbed me. How do you rate it?


I like what I hear on both albums, but I still haven't absorbed all of the music. I''l have to keep listening.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Not bad for latter day Yes. Good sound.


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## vmartell (Feb 9, 2017)

I loved prog rock whenI was younger - still has a ton of affection for it. But - as time went by I found that the faux classical stuff did not hold my interest anymore - I found myself enjoying the jazzier bands and/or moments of prog - so I asked, well, why not jazz? I really did not consider myself a jazz fan, but that moment was an epiphany - so decided to start with the obvious ones - got "Kind Of Blue" and "Time Out" and the rest is - at least for me - is history; 2 years after that, my Jazz vinyl and SACD is bigger than my prog collection.


I don't wanna sound like a classical snob, but all that faux classical stuff lost me - very few bands like that hold my interest anymore. But bands on the Jazzier side of prog like Soft Machine, Henry Cow, Canterbury and the Jazz heavy period of the mighty Crimso continued to do so.

As a fan of the original stuff, modern prog, doesn't feel like prog anymore - is just advanced, avant-garde-y non-commercial rock... 

v


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

The Deacon said:


> You have all their CDS. Not albums.


You have an impressive level of pedantry. I call albums "albums", whatever format I have them in (e.g. mp3 downloads)

It's a common use of the term.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

starthrower said:


> I like what I hear on both albums, but I still haven't absorbed all of the music. I''l have to keep listening.


Cheers. I shall persist.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

vmartell said:


> I loved prog rock whenI was younger - still has a ton of affection for it. But - as time went by I found that the faux classical stuff did not hold my interest anymore - I found myself enjoying the jazzier bands and/or moments of prog - so I asked, well, why not jazz? I really did not consider myself a jazz fan, but that moment was an epiphany - so decided to start with the obvious ones - got "Kind Of Blue" and "Time Out" and the rest is - at least for me - is history; 2 years after that, my Jazz vinyl and SACD is bigger than my prog collection.
> 
> I don't wanna sound like a classical snob, but all that faux classical stuff lost me - very few bands like that hold my interest anymore. But bands on the Jazzier side of prog like Soft Machine, Henry Cow, Canterbury and the Jazz heavy period of the mighty Crimso continued to do so.
> 
> ...


I just listen to it for what it is without making comparisons to classical music. I never understood what people meant when they said King Crimson reminds them of Bartok string quartets.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

starthrower said:


> I just listen to it for what it is without making comparisons to classical music. I never understood what people meant when they said King Crimson reminds them of Bartok string quartets.


That's fine, but I guess nothing wrong in making comparisons. Some people like me are in some way "deficient" in making obsessively all sorts of comparisons, sometimes very vague and loose, but who cares. We all listen to music in our individual ways.

I also feel that progressive rock is mostly "just" influenced by CM, and that's not to say it's inferior or anything. I think it's just great to hear these influences. But there are obviously also more ambitions than mere "referencing" involved in some prog, as other people have pointed out in this thread.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

Current Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba...Status - Bored... Decided to raise the forum's collective IQ by returning for (alas!) one night only...

Prog rock, eh? OK... *Let's ask an expert, shall we?*...(If you're thinking that you're watching a repeat from the "Proto-Prog Rock -- the Early Start of Progressive Rock" thread you would be absolutely correct but I earn a great deal of my income from the residuals earned through syndication and thus my repeats are running somewhere in the forum every single hour of the day...)


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## The Deacon (Jan 14, 2018)

Rich in sheckles then...but poor in prog.


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## Daniel Atkinson (Dec 31, 2016)

starthrower said:


> I never understood what people meant when they said King Crimson reminds them of Bartok string quartets.


Harmonies? Rhythms? Melodies?


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

starthrower said:


> I just listen to it for what it is without making comparisons to classical music. I never understood what people meant when they said King Crimson reminds them of Bartok string quartets.


I'm not one for such comparisons either.

But on the KC front; some of the early music that Fripp was enamoured by was Bartok, specifically the SQs. Perhaps where this might be suggested is in LTIA I and II?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

starthrower said:


> I just listen to it for what it is without making comparisons to classical music. I never understood what people meant when they said King Crimson reminds them of Bartok string quartets.


I first heard that applied to _Larks' Tongues in Aspic_. I assumed it was because of the violin , the violence, odd time signatures like 5/8 and 7/8, and arch form, but I might have been giving the people too much credit - or the wrong kind(?)

Yeah, what dogen said ^ ^ ^. The more obvious influence, for the instrumentation at least, was Mahavishnu. Fripp even interviewed John McLaughlin for Guitar Player Magazine right around that time.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I like the dissonant harmonies in Crimson, but dissonance is ubiquitous in modern music. They have an interesting fusion of influences in their music. Lizard has some free jazz influences as well. A group such as Yes doesn't really have a lot of classical influence outside of Wakeman's keyboard playing. Only when Steve Howe plays solo nylon string guitar. I enjoy the diversity of styles and group sound among the different prog bands. I guess it's the combination of song structure and instrumental prowess that attracts me. I love to listen to great drummers and keyboard players which you find in prog and fusion music. And lyrics addressing other subjects besides women, cars, partying, and all that hedonistic stuff.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2018)

Location...Saskatoon, Saskatchewan...Status...Bored...One last night of mayhem followed by several months of absence...For reasons unknown even to me I have decided to actually write about classical music...Tonight's topic - American composer Aaron Copland...Subject - Leonard Bernstein conducting Emerson, Lake, and Palmer in Copland's Hoedown...






Second subject - Neville Marriner conducting Emerson, Lake, and Palmer and the Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields in Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man -


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

the UK band Gryphon has an early medieval / renaissance English style, they use krumhorn, recorder, lute, oboe, etc, and sing of chivalrous tales in a sort of Shakespearean verse.


I assume it's most often the keyboardist who would bring in the most classical angle to prog bands (such as rick wakeman playing brahms on Fragile), or obviously any wind-playing or multi-instrumentalist fellow the bring into a rock&roll band is going to have some classical training and mindset.

And that is what makes prog great is the diversity of instruments and sounds, synthetic and acoustic, and the number of musical backgrounds the band members were coming from..

I'm sure progressive rock led a lot of us to classical music. After hearing "Close to the Edge" so many times (and expecting more) I was basically primed and ready for the wider world of classical music.


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)




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## The Deacon (Jan 14, 2018)

Errrr.........uhhhhhmmmmm...


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## The Deacon (Jan 14, 2018)

Verrrrry interesting.....
But its not prog.

You are talking fusion,Melvin.


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