# Battle of the Baroques



## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

Many consider Vivaldi, Bach, and Handel to be the 3 most influential Baroque composers. Which is your favorite and why?


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Bach... several parsecs of space, then

Handel... an astronomical unit or two, then

Purcell, Corelli, Telemann, Heineken, Schutz, Rameau, L Couperin, Lully, 

then a bunch of other composers

then Vivaldi.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

waldvogel said:


> Bach... several parsecs of space, then
> 
> Handel... an astronomical unit or two, then
> 
> ...


I guess poor Scarlatti is not even worth mentioning.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

As I'm on about my fifth one right now, my vote is for Heineken! Again and again!

Really, though...these are all great and totally worth mentioning...why just one favorite?

*cough**b**cough**a**cough**c**cough**h**cough


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I guess poor Scarlatti is not even worth mentioning.

Which Scarlatti?


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I guess poor Scarlatti is not even worth mentioning.
> 
> Which Scarlatti?


The one with the Italian accent and amiable disposition. Yeah, that one.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

In answer to the OP:

1. J.S. Bach (aka God Almighty)
2. G.F. Handel (far closer than I used to think... certainly within my top 5 of all time)
3. Antonio Vivaldi... perhaps a distant third in this competition, but again far better than I used to think after having discovered his opera and choral music.

Others to consider: Rameau, Lully, Corelli, Alessandro Scarlatti, Domenico Scarlatti, Monteverdi, Heinrich Ignaz Franz von Biber, Jan Dismas Zelenka, Orlando Gibbons, Henry Purcell, Jean-Féry Rebel, Girolamo Frescobaldi, Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck, Heinrich Schütz, Marc-Antoine Charpentier, Dieterich Buxtehude, Johann Pachelbel, Francois Couperin, G.F. Telemann, Tomaso Albinoni, Sylvius Weiss, Johann Adolf Hasse, etc...


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Early baroque cannot be discounted. Monteverdi and Schütz are two of my favorites, though I would place below Bach in the pantheon.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Bach and Handel.

A sad thing about Bach's oeuvre is a significant amount of it is presumed lost. His surviving cantatas probably represent about two-thirds of what he wrote in total. Significant loss also come from his instrumental works, for he must have surely written loads more concertos for solo instruments than the mere three that have survived in original form (i.e. the two violin conertos and the double violin concerto). (None of the harpsichord concertos were likely original versions, all were transcriptions of models of earlier works). When a giant's work is lost in bulk, it is a lost for western musical heritage. (Though folks who dislike Bach's music might think otherwise  ). 

Vivaldi is enjoying a second Renaissance. After the record industry have now recorded all of Handel's (surviving) operas and oratorios (over 60 to 70 large scale works all by period instrument groups, and that says a lot about demand for Handel's music these days, doesn't it?), Vivaldi's operas are now starting to appear with over a dozen operas available. 

Baroque music in the wider listening world (though not necessarily here at T-C) is alive and relevant, centuries after its time. It seems the more modern we get these days, the more the older stuff speaks ever more relevantly to our inner self than ever before. Many of the listed composers above in StLukesguildOhio's post show that.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

TrazomGangflow said:


> Many consider Vivaldi, Bach, and Handel to be the 3 most influential Baroque composers. Which is your favorite and why?


I don't have a preference overall, I've enjoyed what music I've heard by all 3 over the years.

The caveat is that I don't like Bach's vocal/choral works or the _Brandenburg Concertos _much or even at all, I prefer his solo instrumental things & in terms of his concertos, his ones for violin are firm favourites. Other things like his orchestral suites I'm okay with, but they're not my favourites. But I would not rank Bach lower on my personal list than the other two because I think his solo instrumental music is just so good.

I also like other Baroque era composers, their music can be very relaxing, engaging, innovative, etc. at the same time...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

1. Bach
My favourite composer even though in general I am not crazy about baroque music compared to later periods). About 200 CD's in my collection. Favourites: Matthew Passion, Cello suites, Toccatas and Fugues, WTK, selected cantatas, overtures, concertos, and many many more.

2. Handel
Way way below Bach, not in my top100 composers. About 10 CD's in my collection. Best: concerto grosso series.

3. Vivaldi
Nice background music. About 10 CD's in my collection. Best: cello concertos and Four seasons.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

Tartini , Biber and oh... Pachelbel! Nothing as rock as Canon in D.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> Tartini , Biber and oh... Pachelbel! Nothing as rock as Canon in D.


Giuseppe Tartini, trust you to mention him! Yes, I enjoy his violin concertos.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

My favourite is probably D. Scarlatti. I don't listen to him that much (baroque is not my favourite period, that's for sure) but I'm quite enthusiastic about his music, so was Chopin.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Monteverdi is Baroque in my book. 

Zelenka is a great baroque composer. 

Rameau is only second to Bach for me. I didn't think Vivaldi would be in a top 5. I personally value the works of JS Bach, Rameau, Handel, F Couperin, Telemann, Corelli, Zelenka, D Scarlatti and maybe M Charpentier more. 

Frescobaldi and Froberger are transitional figures whom I value a great deal. Some of Froberger's keyboard works are really ahead of their time.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Art Rock said:


> 1. Bach
> My favourite composer even though in general I am not crazy about baroque music compared to later periods). About 200 CD's in my collection. Favourites: Matthew Passion, Cello suites, Toccatas and Fugues, WTK, selected cantatas, overtures, concertos, and many many more.
> 
> 2. Handel
> ...


It's fascinating and amazing that Bach is your favorite and yet there is 100 other composers whose music you value over Handel's. While Bach's music would be my preference too, im not sure I could conceive of 100 composers which exceed Handel's ability.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


>




Why does it seem like practically every youtube video for baroque music has to have paintings of naked people for background.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

In that bunch of harpsichordist/composers working in France, Froberger and Louis Couperin. I like their music better than that of Rameau and F. Couperin. Among composers for the lute, Denis Gaultier. If I count the number of works I enjoy hearing, Telemann rates with J.S.Bach.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Hilltroll72 said:


> ...Telemann rates with J.S.Bach.


In one of his overtures for horn quartet & orch., Telemann's imaginative use of the orchestra is quite amazing. The tunes or melodic material isn't that memorable though, but one of the movements that images frogs croaking by a pond is quite bizarre & quirky for the music of the time. I can see why you'd like Telemann, he is interesting, though I haven't heard a huge deal of his music. A friend's recording of Michala Petri playing his recorder concertos stands out, my own recording of his _Tafelmusik #1_ & _La Lyra_ I remember as a bit boring, but I'll have to hear it again sometime...


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Telemann 'kept up with the times'. He composed for much larger audiences than J.S. did, and was much closer to being a 'popular' composer. The things I like by Bach, mostly works for solo instruments, I like a lot.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

...im not sure I could conceive of 100 composers which exceed Handel's ability.

After delving deeper and deeper into Handel's oeuvre, including his exquisite Italian cantatas, his operas, oratorios, and other vocal works I find I'd be hard-pressed to conceive of even 5 composers who exceed Handel.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Telemann 'kept up with the times'. He composed for much larger audiences than J.S. did, and was much closer to being a 'popular' composer. The things I like by Bach, mostly works for solo instruments, I like a lot.


As you enjoy Telemann's music (and I do, too), I can recommend you three CDs produced by the record label CPO featuring Elizabeth Wallfisch recording Telemann's violin concertos. These are period instrument performances. These are very fine performances indeed and a first recorded sound. Might as well start with volume 1 (out of 3 so far released). Hope you enjoy them.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Telemann 'kept up with the times'. He composed for much larger audiences than J.S. did, and was much closer to being a 'popular' composer. The things I like by Bach, mostly works for solo instruments, I like a lot.


I read that unlike Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, etc. Telemann has such a huge output that there are no "defining" works in his output. It's like a tree overly laden with fruit, you can choose any one & get something out of it. His _Tafelmusik_ is pretty famous though, but it hasn't clicked with me as the other works I mentioned. He's not as canonical as the other guys, interested you say he was kind of more popular/commercial, maybe that's got a lot to do with it. Eg. Bach has _Mass in B minor_, Handel has _Messiah_, Vivaldi his _Gloria _(the famous one), but Telemann has nothing that has become that huge, not even almost, although I bet he put out works of that type?...


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

There's Geminiani, more intense/complex than Corelli but without the tunes. Then there's William Boyce, very late baroque, but english, so its excusable.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Those familair with its history, _Tafelmusik_ was a commercial publishing anthology of instrumental music. Publishing works under the name _Tafelmusik_ was certainly not new, nor was the practice of bundling together various instrumental works of all different sizes (from solo pieces to orchestral suites) during the Baroque. Telemann was his own publisher when it came to many pieces of works he published, which was rather unique. In short, it was a successful money making venture that earnt him wide subscription all over Europe - including England, which found only one subscriber, a certain Mr Handel.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Those familair with its history, Tafelmusik was a commercial publishing anthology of instrumental music. Publishing works under the name Tafelmusik was certainly not new, nor was the practice of bundling together various instrumental works of all different sizes (from solo pieces to orchestral suites) during the Baroque. Telemann was his own publisher when it came to many pieces of works he published, which was rather unique. In short, it was a successful money making venture that earnt him wide subscription all over Europe - including England, which found only one subscriber, a certain Mr Handel.

I was intrigued to discover that he had even composed cantatas in Danish... for a Danish patron or a visit to Denmark. Personally, among my favorite Telemann works I would include the Parisian Quartets:










I agree with HC that his violin concertos are worthy of exploration. I would add that his work for flute and recorder has long been among his most respected. I especially admire the Flute Quartets:










Several discs present a marvelous recital combining his chamber works with his chamber cantatas:



















I cannot recommend the second disc (Mit Freude) highly enough.

Among Telemann's larger works, I was especially impressed with his _Resurrection_:










Others that I would recommend include _Funeral Music for Garlieb Sillem_ and the _Passion Cantatas_:










I agree that Telemann doesn't have the great well known "defining" work like Bach, Handel, or Vivaldi... but then again we should recognize that Telemann is only now being rehabilitated, if you will. Outside of Handel's Messiah his most famous works (The Water Music, The Royal Fireworks) are far from being anywhere near as great as some of his operas, cantatas, and oratorios that have only been recently "rediscovered". The same holds true of Vivaldi. For all the marvels of the Gloria how many have even heard the equally brilliant _Stabat Mater_ or _Nisi Dominus_... to say nothing of his operas? The Baroque is undergoing a a rediscovery that is virtually unrivaled by any other era.

As HC pointed out, 20 or so years ago you'd be lucky to find anything beyond Handel's Messiah, Water Music, Royal Fireworks Music, and his concerti grossi in even the finest record stores. Perhaps Saul or Solomon if you were lucky... and a recital of favorite arias. Today all 60+ operas and oratorios are available... almost all of them in excellent performances, etc... The opera I am listening to right now, Vivaldi's Ercole sur Termodonte is a world premier recording of the opera (although a DVD version was released some 5 years ago).

In tandem with the "rediscovery" of forgotten Baroque music and composers, the HIP movement has resulted in a "rethinking" of the approach to older music taking into consideration musicological research concerning instruments, performance and singing styles. I'm no purist, so I wouldn't suggest that the HIP approach has banished all older and traditional approaches to the Baroque... but it certainly has shaken things up, and done away with a lot of the old leaden stodgy approaches to a truly dynamic body of music.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Sid James said:


> [...]
> Eg. Bach has _Mass in B minor_, Handel has _Messiah_, Vivaldi his _Gloria _(the famous one), but Telemann has nothing that has become that huge, not even almost, although I bet he put out works of that type?...


I don't know if he did._ HC_ probably does. Except for "Messiah", which I think of as an oratorio for general consumption, it isn't music I seek out anyway.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Telemann was a very fine composer, he's probably the best contrapuntal two part writer after Bach in my opinion. This is evidenced in his duets and small keyboard pieces. And this particular type of writing, other high rankers include WF Bach with his flute duets, and Henri Purcell.


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## DanBCarson (Oct 17, 2011)

Right now I would say Handel is my favorite baroque composer. Then Telemann after that. Bach comes in at number three. I put Bach here not because I want to be different from everyone else, but because his music is often too academic for my enjoyment. I respect most of Bach's music for it's well-done counterpoint and meticulous craftsmanship, but I do not often find it to be "catchy" (if you'll permit the use of this term regarding classical music). Handel, on the other hand, has many recognizable tunes in his music, particularly in his Concerti Grossi, Op. 6. Telemann was perhaps even MORE melodic (try listening to the Tafelmusik, particularly the Ouverture in E Minor, or the Concerto in A Major for flute, violin, cello and orchestra. Loads of tunes there). However, I find Handel to be more innovative than Telemann.

In short, Bach, supremely gifted composer as he may have been, does not seem to speak to me. I hope this is not heresy.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> In answer to the OP:
> 
> 1. J.S. Bach (aka God Almighty)
> 2. G.F. Handel (far closer than I used to think... certainly within my top 5 of all time)
> ...


StlukesguildOhio - I could not quarrel with any of your choices, but would add some of my own thoughts. J. S. Bach may not be God Almighty but he is surely seated on His right hand.

So my top list would be:
J. S. Bach 
Handel 
Buxtehude
Telemann
Sweelinck
Schutz
Purcell
with the others you mentioned closely following. Vivaldi would not be in my top 10. Many think that he wrote the same concerto 200 times. Pachelbel, despite the Canon in D, wrote some excellent music. My problem with the Canon in D is that while it is a lovely melody, I find that I cannot recall it 5 minutes after it ends, no matter how many times I hear it.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

DanBCarson said:


> Right now I would say Handel is my favorite baroque composer. Then Telemann after that. Bach comes in at number three. I put Bach here not because I want to be different from everyone else, but because his music is often too academic for my enjoyment. I respect most of Bach's music for it's well-done counterpoint and meticulous craftsmanship, but I do not often find it to be "catchy" (if you'll permit the use of this term regarding classical music). Handel, on the other hand, has many recognizable tunes in his music, particularly in his Concerti Grossi, Op. 6. Telemann was perhaps even MORE melodic (try listening to the Tafelmusik, particularly the Ouverture in E Minor, or the Concerto in A Major for flute, violin, cello and orchestra. Loads of tunes there). However, I find Handel to be more innovative than Telemann.
> 
> In short, Bach, supremely gifted composer as he may have been, does not seem to speak to me. I hope this is not heresy.


It's not heresy. Anybody who loves Handel's music is good enough to be friends.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Vivaldi would not be in my top 10. Many think that he wrote the same concerto 200 times.

Had more of Bach's instrumental work survived one might have been able to level the same charge against him. Personally I focus on those concerti that I most admire. Certainly the Four Seasons, the concerti for mandolin, and a few others. Where I think Vivaldi shines, however, is with such works as his sonatas for violin and cello and his vocal music... his operas and choral music... that have long been under-appreciated or unknown.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Vivaldi would not be in my top 10. Many think that he wrote the same concerto 200 times.

Had more of Bach's instrumental work survived one might have been able to level the same charge against him. Personally I focus on those concerti that I most admire. Certainly the Four Seasons, the concerti for mandolin, and a few others. Where I think Vivaldi shines, however, is with such works as his sonatas for violin and cello and his vocal music... his operas and choral music... that have long been under-appreciated or unknown.

I suspect that Scarlatti _pere_ may also come to be more highly regarded as a result of the rediscovery of the Baroque. There are a lot of cantatas, opera, and choral music in his oeuvre and the few examples that have been rehabilitated and properly recorded are quite stunning.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Rameau has to get more of a mention in this thread.

Rameau is arguably as great a composer as Handel and in-arguably greater than Vivaldi.

Rameau is perhaps one of the 3 greatest French composers of all time alongside Debussy and Berlioz


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## DanBCarson (Oct 17, 2011)

"...but he is surely seated on His right hand."

Nice Dixit Dominus reference.


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

TrazomGangflow said:


> Many consider Vivaldi, Bach, and Handel to be the 3 most influential Baroque composers. Which is your favorite and why?


J S Bach and Handel are at the very top for me.
But as for Vivaldi……I can think of many other Baroque composers that I find more interesting.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Don't know that I can pick just one. 

Some outstanding favourites would be: Carissimi, Biber, Charpentier, Rosenmuller, Stradella, Purcell, Monteverdi, Zelenka, Kerll, Sainte-Colombe...and so on -the usual suspects of Bach, Handel and Vivaldi would also certainly get a mention though I don't especially favour them over those I've already mentioned. Probably Carissimi and Biber get the most airtime with me. 

I think Vivaldi and Pachelbel get a lot of undeserved flack for being popular/populist. Pachelbel's vocal music is glorious.

Amongst those who haven't been mentioned I think William Lawes probably deserves to be -though I suppose I could probably sit here all day reeling off names of people who've made some amazing music.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Rameau is arguably as great a composer as Handel and in-arguably greater than Vivaldi.

How much of Vivaldi's of Vivaldi's operatic and choral work have you listened to prior to making such an assessment? I agree that Rameau is a formidable composer among the Baroque... although I think he stands some way beneath Handel. Vivaldi is difficult to currently assess for the simple reason that much of his oeuvre is only recently coming out of obscurity. A great deal of his operas are only now being published and like Handel 15 or 20 years ago his reputation is undergoing a major reassessment as many of these works are being performed for the first time. 20 years ago we would have laughed at the very suggestion that Handel was nearly as good of composer as Bach... or even the mere suggestion that Handel might rank among the top 10 or so composers of all time. Today, this is virtually a given. I am interested in how Vivaldi's reputation... and those of others such as Alessandro Scarlatti, Johann Adolph Hasse, etc... might look in another 10 or 15 years.





















And this one certainly pushes the abilities of any vocalist:











**********


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

This is no minor composer.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

1. Bach
2. Vivaldi
3. Handel
4. Telemann
5. Corelli
6. Albinoni
I gotta listen to more Baroque though but those seem to interest me the most. I don't understand the disrespect for Vivaldi. I love the 4 Seasons. He has some other great Concertos as well. And the repetitive Concertos could be said for many Baroque composers as well as composers in the Classical era. I know that is blasphemy. I choose to ignore the claims for being repetitive and just enjoy the pieces.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

bach. .


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

He is great. But he does lack the amount of violin concertos. He has the most complete work done for Baroque though but I think the other composers are worth mentioning. As I don't listen to Bach that much. Corelli is probably my favorite at the moment for his Concerti Grossi Op. 6. Thus my avatar picture.


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