# I hate rubato



## gurthbruins (May 12, 2010)

I would hardly venture to stick my neck out like this if I had no good company.

But I have. There is a great pianist (and I mean great) who was very strongly against rubato. My problem is I have forgotten who it was. I think it just might have been Backhaus. Can anybody help me to know who it was?

What has just provoked me into this outburst was a sickening rendition of a Chopin waltz (mazurka, or whatever) with terribly done rubatos. I said to myself : "That is certainly not
Horowitz or Rubinstein or anybody in that sort of class" and it turned out I was right - it was some local unknown artist on a local station broadcast.

To me rubato is always the equivalent of a bad actor overacting. Of course, Chopin is most likely to provide the greatest refutation of this stance. Is there anyone who thinks Chopin might be well rendered with absolutely no rubato?

That might seem like pushing it a bit, but who knows? Someone might even agree with me.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't much care for rubato and that's probably why I don't much care for Chopin. That, and his penchant for running up and down the keyboard in lieu of melodic content. 

Sometimes a bit of rubato acts like swing in jazz, and that's a good thing, but a little goes a long way.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

http://www.musicofyesterday.com/history/8002425/Chopin-and-The-Tempo-Rubato.php

Is that guy playing with rubato, or is he just poor at keeping time? There's a big difference between those two. Chopin writes rubato into his music and you can't play Chopin without rubato, but he has always been extremely strict at keeping time and gets pissed off when people misunderstands what rubato means and play it into parts which wasn't meant to have rubato. Rubato, when used correctly is one of signatures of Chopin's music and is what that makes his music more expressive than the music of many other piano composers, but when used exceesively is no different than the wobble of an opera singer.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Rubato, like everything else in life, should be enjoyed in moderation.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

I have to agree that, for some musicians, _rubato_ is used as a device to say "hey, look at me! Listen to what I can do!", often with no musical justification whatsoever. Although some music demands the use of SUBTLE _rubato_, most of the time music benefits best from being played 'straight' (and I don't mean mechanically), allowing the music to speak for itself.

The are certain conductors who destroy the natural ebb and flow of orchestral music by imposing terrible mannerisms into their 'interpretations' such as unnecessary (and usually unmusical) slowing down and speeding up and pauses in the music. Some are also very willful in their ridiculous choices of tempo, completely ignoring the composer's wishes.


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## Jean Christophe Paré (Nov 21, 2010)

Music should respect the will of the composer. Wagner hated virtuoso-like playing, said it took away from the true beauty of the music. He was one that wanted you to play his piece as perfectly to the letter as possible. One should do that. On the other hand, Chopin himself championed the well-used rubato in his music, and one has to respect that and at least try.

That's to complete what Delicious Manager says about allowing the music to speak for itself: Chopin's music is written with rubato in mind and its most basic form allows for rubato, whereas a lot of music is not created for use with rubato and can only be pure - for the composer's will is accountable for the perfection of a piece - through respect of tempo.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I think you may have Wagner confused with another composer regarding rubato,because Wagner was famous in his day for applying ample rubato and rhythmic freedom to both his own music and others when conducting. 
In fact, Berlioz criticized him for using it much too freely,and was much stricter when conducting his own music,although he also opposed metronomic rigidity.
As bad as exaggerated, self-advertising rubato is in music, metronomic rigidity is no better. 
There is a middle way.


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## Jean Christophe Paré (Nov 21, 2010)

superhorn said:


> I think you may have Wagner confused with another composer regarding rubato,because Wagner was famous in his day for applying ample rubato and rhythmic freedom to both his own music and others when conducting.
> In fact, Berlioz criticized him for using it much too freely,and was much stricter when conducting his own music,although he also opposed metronomic rigidity.
> As bad as exaggerated, self-advertising rubato is in music, metronomic rigidity is no better.
> There is a middle way.


I actually take the statement from his own writings where he said he despised virtuosi and people's use of rubato. I don't know about what use he made of it, but he did criticise it.


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

I don't particularly like the excessive use of rubato for continuo sections. It becomes a dealbreaker for me, even if a performance is otherwise excellent.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Looks like this old hillbilly doesn't even understand the term. I figured I had it down that rubato, for Chopin at least, was maintaining the rhythm in the left hand while getting a bit fore and aft in the right hand. My reading suggests that that practice was damn near 'the way to go' amongst the piano virtuosi a century or so ago.

Eh, so what do I know anyway? What's on the page can get screwed up some by the time it gets into my head.

:tiphat:


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## Jean Christophe Paré (Nov 21, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Looks like this old hillbilly doesn't even understand the term. I figured I had it down that rubato, for Chopin at least, was maintaining the rhythm in the left hand while getting a bit fore and aft in the right hand. My reading suggests that that practice was damn near 'the way to go' amongst the piano virtuosi a century or so ago.
> 
> Eh, so what do I know anyway? What's on the page can get screwed up some by the time it gets into my head.
> 
> :tiphat:


It does appear to me that rubato is in concordance of romantic ideals of emotionality. But then again not everyone liked it nonetheless. What the proponents of rubato agreed on, however, is that rubato is not an excuse for lack of rhythm and that only exquisite use of it is acceptable. Bad rubato is not only bad rubato, but also all in all bad playing.


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## PianoCoach (Nov 28, 2010)

So sad. Romantic music, especially piano music, without rubato is unimaginable.

In fact even Schindler (Beethoven's friend) claimed that Beethoven played his music rubato. Take fur elise for example. The great Beethoven pianists (Brendel, Schnabel) play the piece rubato. If you purchase Beethoven's Greatest Hits etc, it's played like a ring tone. Beethoven would turn over in his grave.

Keep in mind that Chopin didn't even like Beethoven. He loved Mozart, more than anyone and typically Mozart is not played rubato. But there's no question that Chopin performed his own works rubato. There is so much evidence to support this.

Rubato means "to rob" ("to borrow"). If a metronome was set at the beginning of a phrase, it would actually end on time at the end of the phrase....while the tempo of the phrase shaped. Many poor pianists are unable to do this. They vary the tempo so much that it loses context with the bigger structure of the piece. The phrases lose their integrity.

Please honor Chopin as he wanted his music played. With rubato.


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## gurthbruins (May 12, 2010)

PianoCoach said:


> Please honor Chopin as he wanted his music played. With rubato.


I can't resist this appeal. I will honor as requested.
Consider my thread title to be amended - replace "rubato" with "inappropriate rubato".

I used to love my father's playing of Chopin. He certainly used plenty of rubato, probably even more than most, but I thought it was appropriate and well done.

Speaking of Schnabel, I love the excitement of his Beethoven playing and especially the way he plays Schubert, but I had a record of him playing Mozart's K595 in which he grossly distorted the rhythm at one point. Too much.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I like the amendment... I've heard too much inappropriate rubato. In my opinion, rubato should only aid the music, and should be almost unnoticeable... or at least should not draw any attention away from the music. I once heard a horrible rendition of a Wieniawski polonaise (the one in D major), in which the violinist (who is apparently rather well known, I can't remember his name anymore) twisted the phrase around and made everything so sugary and stuff that after about thirty seconds I left that for the far better Heifetz video, and this time I'm not just saying it because it's Heifetz. It's just plain better than any other I've heard, precisely because of the very well-considered rubato.


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## gurthbruins (May 12, 2010)

Your mention of Heifetz gives me a chance to "honor" him as well, as he is one of my heroes.
His playing always impeccable, and his razor-sharp intonation produces incredible resonance.

I love this quote, attributed to Heifetz himself:
"If I don't practise four hours a day, my critics know it.
If I don't practise eight hours a day, I know it."


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

JCP, "The Great Conductors" by the late music critic Harold C. Schonberg, one of the best books on conducting ever written, has a discussion of Wagner's conducting which goes into detail about his ample use of rubato as conductor.I don't know if you've read it, but if not, I recommend it highly.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

gurthbruins said:


> I love this quote, attributed to Heifetz himself:
> "If I don't practise four hours a day, my critics know it.
> If I don't practise eight hours a day, I know it."


I heard it this way: "If I don't practice for a day, I know it. If I don't practice for two days, the critics know it. And if I don't practice for three days, the audience knows it."

Same idea either way.


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## gurthbruins (May 12, 2010)

Interesting. I wonder if anyone can cast light on the veracity of these versions.


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## Jean Christophe Paré (Nov 21, 2010)

superhorn said:


> JCP, "The Great Conductors" by the late music critic Harold C. Schonberg, one of the best books on conducting ever written, has a discussion of Wagner's conducting which goes into detail about his ample use of rubato as conductor.I don't know if you've read it, but if not, I recommend it highly.


I do not know myself about his conducting. I must say that I have not read it. However, I read a few papers he published or that were published posthumously. Mostly stories - both fiction and not - and newspaper articles. I must suggest the one where he speaks about meeting Beethoven; it is an interesting story, and the Wagner depicted in it is very different from my imagination. He portrays himself in a quite self-deprecating manner and seems grotesque.

Either way; in one of the stories, he strongly criticised virtuoso-like playing and all derivations from the score. I assumed such applied to rubato as well, though I do not know of his stance on the matter. Nonetheless, he did say a few times that music is made to be played perfectly to the paper - but then rubato can be written.


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

I wonder when listening to this wether Rachmaninov is just playing it according to his own mannerism, or is he actually in touch with a preformance tradition close to chopin's day


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## PianoCoach (Nov 28, 2010)

I love this version by Rachmaninoff. I own a CD that I bought at a restaurant (Cracker Barrel). It is performed with the same emotion as "Happy Birthday". The Chopin Nocturne Opus 9 No 2, to my ears, is about painful longing. Perhaps it's Chopin longing for his homeland of Poland while he is displaced in Paris. I can't imagine these notes performed with strict rhythm (although my cheap CD does). Rachmaninoff's version, to me, is even more powerful than either of Rubenstein's Nocturne recordings .... and he's a great Chopin pianist.


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