# Kaufmann's 1st Tristan at BSO



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Did anyone get to hear this much anticipated performance of Act 2 from T & I?

From early reviews it was regarded as a fine performance. Kaufmann & Camilla Nylund were both making role debuts. Apparently they sang from scores which took away much of the chemistry between the lovers, & at times struggled to be heard over the orchestra, but sang a beautiful Liebesnacht & really excelled in the softer passages. They were excellent at the end of the act. The standouts of the night were the Brangaene & Marke sung by Mihoko Fujimura & George Zeppenfeld with the latter being the star of the performance among the singers. No surprising since they are veterans of the roles.

The above is what a pieced together from a handful reviews, but I'm more interested in hearing from anyone who may have been there...


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> Did anyone get to hear this much anticipated performance of Act 2 from T & I?
> 
> From early reviews it was regarded as a fine performance. Kaufmann & Camilla Nylund were both making role debuts. Apparently they sang from scores which took away much of the chemistry between the lovers, & at times struggled to be heard over the orchestra, but sang a beautiful Liebesnacht & really excelled in the softer passages. They were excellent at the end of the act. The standouts of the night were the Brangaene & Marke sung by Mihoko Fujimura & George Zeppenfeld with the latter being the star of the performance among the singers. No surprising since they are veterans of the roles.
> 
> The above is what a pieced together from a handful reviews, but I'm more interested in hearing from anyone who may have been there...


I was there on Thursday night, and listened to the broadcast on Saturday. As usual, the broadcast, while very enjoyable, is not an accurate represntation of how the concert actually sounded. Here's what I wrote on another forum, with a few edits.

I was in the fifth row of the center section of the second balcony, which is where I always try to sit in Symphony Hall. I've heard a number of singers from up there, including some singers with fairly light voices, like Ian Bostridge and Barbara Bonney. So I was surprised, and not positively, by Kaufmann's Tristan. While I wouldn't say that he was entirely inaudible, his voice made very little impact and did not carry well at all. I know that the orchestration, particularly in the first part of the act, is pretty heavy, but this was my impression even later in the act. His voice is very, very dark and baritonal, and is utterly without any brilliance in his upper range. He certainly sounded better on last night's broadcast, and perhaps he was more cautious on Thursday, but I 
suspect that's not the case. If he ever sings the entire role, it will likely be in a small house with a covered pit. I'm sure that he wasn't helped at all by the fact that it was a concert performance with a full Wagnerian orchestra on stage with him.

Interpretively, there really wasn't much there, which should be unsurprising, since this was his first performance of any part of the role. He is an inherently musical singer with a pretty steady vocal emission, which places him well above the provincial bawlers to whom we've been subjected for the past several decades. But it was a very Domingo-esque performance; the notes are all there, the singing is musical and intelligent, and he sings with nice legato flow, but there's no verbal specificity to his phrasing and no real passion. He and Nylund were on opposite sides of Nelsons, so there was no interaction between them. They were tied to their scores, more or less singing in their own little worlds.

Nylund's is basically a moderately sized lyric voice, and she was at the end of her tether for the first half of the act, when her rather wide vibrato threatened to become a wobble. She sang better from "O sink hernieder" on, when the orchestra lightens up a bit. Fujimura's voice sounded much less dark in the house than on the broadcast, and her German was only intermittently intelligible, but she provided the sort of vocal presence lacking in the two principals. I thought that the best singing of the night was from the King Mark, George Zeppenfeld, who sang with commanding voice and manner (and unlike both Nylund and Kaufmann, without music).

The orchestra played magnificently, which I think that the broadcast only hints at, and Nelsons had the full measure of the score, although there were a couple of spots - the beginning of "O sink hernieder" and a moment or two in Mark's long solo where the tempo were slow enough that forward musical flow suffered.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

BTW, I recently listened to Schager's Tristan with Barenboim from Berlin, via broadcast. I obviously have no idea how he comes across in the house, but he sounds to be a lot less baritonal than Kaufmann, although the reviews I've read that refer to his singing as "unrefined" are right on target. I guess that we can't have everything in one singer...


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Thank you for the review wkasimer!


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

[video=facebook_share;1027828277382699]https://www.facebook.com/LauraFontana9999/videos/1027828277382699/?t=45[/video]

Kaufmann has announced that he will sing the full role in 2021. Take a look at the comment section after the article...

http://slippedisc.com/2018/04/jonas-kaufmann-i-will-sing-the-full-tristan-in-2021/


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I'm not a fan of Kaufmann's Wagner. Does anyone else find his career is based mostly on well-to-do, unsatisfied, upper and middle-upper class married women?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Couchie said:


> I'm not a fan of Kaufmann's Wagner. Does anyone else find his career is based mostly on well-to-do, unsatisfied, upper and middle-upper class married women?


LMAO!! I'm not touching that one :lol:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Talking about pre judgemental :devil:


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Couchie said:


> I'm not a fan of Kaufmann's Wagner. Does anyone else find his career is based mostly on well-to-do, unsatisfied, upper and middle-upper class married women?


Kaufmann's career? Or Wagner's?


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Couchie said:


> I'm not a fan of Kaufmann's Wagner. Does anyone else find his career is based mostly on well-to-do, unsatisfied, upper and middle-upper class married women?


Well, I'm a broke lesbian but I like him a lot. And I'm generally one to complain when the soprano ignores the poor baritone for the tenor, so Jonas is an exception.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> I'm not a fan of Kaufmann's Wagner. *Does anyone else find his career is based mostly on well-to-do, unsatisfied, upper and middle-upper class married women?*


Have you got some specific evidence for this? Were those who threw their knickers at him at the Proms just 'unsatisfied, upper and middle-upper class married women'?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Kaufmann is an impresario's dream being a tenor who is also very good looking. However, his voice is not heavy enough for Tristan imo. He seemed to struggle with Otello vocally as the voice simply was not big enough. I wonder if he should stick to more lyric roles.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Kaufmann is an impresario's dream being a tenor who is also very good looking. However, his voice is not heavy enough for Tristan imo. He seemed to struggle with Otello vocally as the voice simply was not big enough. I wonder if he should stick to more lyric roles.


I agree with everything you've said here, especially your last suggestion.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Probably Lohengrin, Parsifal and Siegmund are his realistic limit, and based on his recording of Rienzi's prayer he might be good in that too. Still, he would sound better, for pure vocal quality, than many who've taken on Tristan. When it comes to heldentenors, opera managements are beggars and can't be choosers.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I've always found his voice to have a muddled, rather than piercing (ping) quality we are looking for.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Probably Lohengrin, Parsifal and Siegmund are his realistic limit, and based on his recording of Rienzi's prayer he might be good in that too. Still, he would sound better, for pure vocal quality, than many who've taken on Tristan. When it comes to heldentenors, opera managements are beggars and can't be choosers.


I simply can't abide listening to Wolfgang Windgassen even though I am forced to since he paired with Birgit Nilsson so often. That white, colorless sound just goes all over me, and not in a good way.

Kaufmann's voice appeals to me but I think for his vocal health he needs to stay away from Otello, Tristan, and other heavy roles.

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barelytenor said:


> I simply can't abide listening to Wolfgang Windgassen even though I am forced to since he paired with Birgit Nilsson so often. That white, colorless sound just goes all over me, and not in a good way.
> 
> Kaufmann's voice appeals to me but I think for his vocal health he needs to stay away from Otello, Tristan, and other heavy roles. eat
> 
> ...


Windgassen was never noted for vocal beauty, and it's a pity that there were so few alternatives in the '50s and '60s. He was an intelligent artist, though, and did have the strength, endurance and canniness necessary to get through Tristan and Siegfried alive. His recorded Tristan, dry-voiced and unappealing in Act 2, rises to painful eloquence in Act 3.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

^ I couldn't agree more. Well, I could, but I don't. 

Speaking as someone who has sung his share of Wagner tenor pieces (unwisely for the most part), I can attest there is certainly something to be said for any heldentenor who escapes Wagner not only alive, but vocally intact. But think about Windgassen singing anything else. Puccini? God forbid. Verdi? Well, he probably could, technically. But it would sound hideous.

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Barelytenor said:


> But think about Windgassen singing anything else. Puccini? God forbid. Verdi? Well, he probably could, technically. But it would sound hideous.
> 
> Kind regards, :tiphat:
> 
> George


Had to find out.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Probably Lohengrin, Parsifal and Siegmund are his realistic limit, and based on his recording of Rienzi's prayer he might be good in that too.


Isn't Rienzi, at least in a moderately complete production, one of the tougher Wagnerian tenor roles? Interesting discussion here:

http://www.operacast.com/heldtenor.htm


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Sloe said:


> Had to find out.


At least he got to sing it in German.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

amfortas said:


> At least he got to sing it in German.


His debut role was Pinkerton in Madam Butterfly.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Barelytenor said:


> But think about Windgassen singing anything else. Puccini? God forbid. Verdi? Well, he probably could, technically. But it would sound hideous.


But isn't that true of the vast majority of tenors who've sung Wagner over the past several decades? With the exceptions of Heppner and Seiffert, everyone else has had such an ugly instrument that no one would think of hiring them for anything else.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Yes, I guess that's probably true. The heldentenor voice (before Kaufmann) that I always loved the most was James King's, and I must admit I have never heard him sing any other composer's work (not that I have looked yet).

Hate the Windgassen Otello above! It's just so _wrong!_

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Had to find out.


Drama counts for more than vocal beauty here, and given that and the fact that it's in German, I find this moving. I've never seen Windgassen in action before, and I can understand why he, along with other fine actors with less than beautiful voices (Modl and Varnay?) were so valuable to postwar Bayreuth and why Wieland Wagner must have been happy to work with them.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

amfortas said:


> Isn't Rienzi, at least in a moderately complete production, one of the tougher Wagnerian tenor roles? Interesting discussion here:
> 
> http://www.operacast.com/heldtenor.htm


I very much enjoyed reading that. Thanks Amfortas!


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

*James King and DFD Sing "Dio che nell'alma infondere" auf Deutsch*

Well, I had to find out. Here are James King and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau singing the famous friendship duet from Don Carlo. I love King's effortless high notes and lovely tone quality. DFD--well, everyone to his own taste. There's a nasty small musical cut at the end (they probably couldn't translate "grido estremo sarà" into few-enough syllables). Anyway. Enjoy!






Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Drama counts for more than vocal beauty here, and given that and the fact that it's in German, I find this moving. I've never seen Windgassen in action before, and I can understand why he, along with other fine actors with less than beautiful voices (Modl and Varnay?) were so valuable to postwar Bayreuth and why Wieland Wagner must have been happy to work with them.


I don´t think he sounds ugly.
I don´t think Mödl and Varnay had ugly voices either I vould rather call their voices characteristic.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> I don´t think he sounds ugly.
> I don´t think Mödl and Varnay had ugly voices either I vould rather call their voices characteristic.


I said only "less than beautiful." Offhand I can't think of any celebrated opera singer whose voice I'd call ugly, although many have made ugly sounds from time to time (intentionally or not).


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I said only "less than beautiful." Offhand I can't think of any celebrated opera singer whose voice I'd call ugly, although many have made ugly sounds from time to time (intentionally or not).


Sorry for having expressed myself wrongly. I don´t think their voices were less than beautiful anyway. Just realised that I have heard Mödl a lot.
Just didn´t want to give the impression that I had anything against Windgassen singing Verdi.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Barelytenor said:


> Yes, I guess that's probably true. The heldentenor voice (before Kaufmann) that I always loved the most was James King's, and I must admit I have never heard him sing any other composer's work (not that I have looked yet).


I'm sure that you've figured it out by now, but King sang quite a bit of music other than Wagner. Looking at just his Met career (bearing in mind that much of his career was spent in Vienna), in addition to his Wagnerian roles, he sang Calaf, Cavaradossi, Don Jose in Carmen, Florestan, Captain Vere in Billy Budd, and of course, he was the dominant singer of two of Strauss' killer tenor roles, Bacchus in Ariadne and the Emperor in Die Frau ohne Schatten. Although not at the Met, he also sang Max in Freischutz, and probably a few other roles.

He also made a few fine nonoperatic recordings, which have been largely neglected by companies in the CD era. There's an RCA LP of him singing Schubert and Strauss, and an exceptional recording of Beethoven's Christus am Olberg. And he's the tenor on two recordings of Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde (with Haitink and Bernstein).


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Offhand I can't think of any celebrated opera singer whose voice I'd call ugly,


Wooduck, you are vastly more charitable than I am. I can think of dozens of singers with truly ugly voices


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> Wooduck, you are vastly more charitable than I am. I can think of dozens of singers with truly ugly voices


Can you give example?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Sloe said:


> Can you give example?


I could, but I'd prefer not to. People tend to be offended when one of their favorites is disrespected.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> I could, but I'd prefer not to. People tend to be offended when one of their favorites is disrespected.


I feel the same. 
Just wanted to see if we would think the same or different.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Regarding all of the above: Yes wkasimer, I have now realized that King sang a wide variety of music ex: Wagner. (And thank you for pointing it out as well.) More the better, I say!

Regarding Windgassen (he says, putting on his size 14 tiptoeing shoes): I respect him as a great musician and interpreter. I suppose I'll leave it at that. My dislike of the Otello is compounded because in general, I very much detest hearing Italian opera sung in other languages--German being at the top of that list. I will grant Woodduck that he is a damn good dramatic interpreter. But I would much prefer to hear him singing "Niun mi tema" rather than whatever that is. Same goes for DFD and King singing the Don Carlo in German.

_"Chacun á son goût" et tout ça._

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Barelytenor said:


> My dislike of the Otello is compounded because in general, I very much detest hearing Italian opera sung in other languages--German being at the top of that list.


You miss out on some excellent historic performances - some of my favorites are in the "wrong language". There are a couple of fine Otello broadcasts with Hans Hopf (who often sounded better singing Italian opera in German than he did in some of his Wagnerian outings), and a marvelous Rigoletto with Streich, Schock, and Metternich. And all of those Pavel Lisitsian recordings of Italian opera, sung in Russian.

And right now, I'm about to listen to Giulio Cesare auf Deutsch. I may sound odd, but you won't find a performance in Italian with the likes of Popp, Ludwig, Wunderlich, and Berry.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> Wooduck, you are vastly more charitable than I am. I can think of dozens of singers with truly ugly voices


Well, I did say "offhand." 

Now that I'm giving it a little more time... But ugliness is relative.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barelytenor said:


> Regarding all of the above: Yes wkasimer, I have now realized that King sang a wide variety of music ex: Wagner. (And thank you for pointing it out as well.) More the better, I say!
> 
> Regarding Windgassen (he says, putting on his size 14 tiptoeing shoes): I respect him as a great musician and interpreter. I suppose I'll leave it at that. My dislike of the Otello is compounded because *in general, I very much detest hearing Italian opera sung in other languages--German being at the top of that list.* I will grant Woodduck that he is a damn good dramatic interpreter. But I would much prefer to hear him singing "Niun mi tema" rather than whatever that is. Same goes for DFD and King singing the Don Carlo in German.
> 
> ...


If you haven't heard Lauritz Melchior singing Otello in German, you need to. If you didn't know the original language was Italian you'd be none the wiser.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> If you haven't heard Lauritz Melchior singing Otello in German, you need to. If you didn't know the original language was Italian you'd be none the wiser.


One of my favorite Melchior recordings, and probably my favorite "Dio! Mi potevi..." recording, language be damned.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> One of my favorite Melchior recordings, and probably my favorite "Dio! Mi potevi..." recording, language be damned.


Likewise. It's a great shame that the Met wouldn't let him do Otello, presumably because it "belonged" to Martinelli.

My other favorite Melchior "bleeding chunk" is his "Nur eine Waffe taugt" from Parsifal. He just blazes with ecstasy - a sun beside whom other tenors are mere light bulbs.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Likewise. It's a great shame that the Met wouldn't let him do Otello, presumably because it "belonged" to Martinelli.


And perhaps they were afraid that if they let Melchior sing Otello, Martinelli would want to sing Tristan, which might not have been a great idea. Martinelli did sing Tristan very late in his career, I believe, but not at the Met.

A live recording of a Melchior Otello from Covent Garden has long been rumored.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> You miss out on some excellent historic performances - some of my favorites are in the "wrong language". There are a couple of fine Otello broadcasts with Hans Hopf (who often sounded better singing Italian opera in German than he did in some of his Wagnerian outings), and a marvelous Rigoletto with Streich, Schock, and Metternich. And all of those Pavel Lisitsian recordings of Italian opera, sung in Russian.
> 
> And right now, I'm about to listen to Giulio Cesare auf Deutsch. I may sound odd, but you won't find a performance in Italian with the likes of Popp, Ludwig, Wunderlich, and Berry.


I feel the same and this is how opera opera was performed until the eighties. The negative part with that is of course it will be difficult to get international singers to perform in countries with not so common languages.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> And perhaps they were afraid that if they let Melchior sing Otello, Martinelli would want to sing Tristan, which might not have been a great idea. Martinelli did sing Tristan very late in his career, I believe, but not at the Met.
> 
> A live recording of a Melchior Otello from Covent Garden has long been rumored.


I'd pay good money for that.

Star singers can be possessive about "their" roles, and stars must be kept happy. I believe Melchior did get to sing an excerpt from Otello at a Met gala concert. Another part he should have done is Canio:


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> If you haven't heard Lauritz Melchior singing Otello in German, you need to. If you didn't know the original language was Italian you'd be none the wiser.


I like it. There's not much Melchior I don't like. It's great singing. It would be greater in Italian, if he were equally adept in that language. This is one of those times where we disagree.

Back to the original topic, more or less, I am very much looking forward today to enjoying my new DVD of Kaufmann, Harteros, Semenchuk, Hampson, Salminen, and Halfvarson in Don Carlo (and those last two should put up quite a ruckus in the Filippo-Grande Inquisitore scene).

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Barelytenor said:


> There's not much Melchior I don't like. It's great singing. It would be greater in Italian, if he were equally adept in that language. This is one of those times where we disagree.


Actually, Melchior did record excerpts from Otello in Italian, during the 40's. I don't know whether it was the language or his age, but they're decidedly inferior to the earlier excerpts in German.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> Actually, Melchior did record excerpts from Otello in Italian, during the 40's. I don't know whether it was the language or his age, but they're decidedly inferior to the earlier excerpts in German.


Well, there's nothing wrong with these:











Fascinating to hear Svanholm, too, sounding impressive performing repertoire we don't know him in. Singers like these are a salutary reminder of what "heldentenor" means. Much as I like Kaufmann, I have to concede that he isn't quite a member of that very small club.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Well, there's nothing wrong with these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now THAT's what I'm talking about! Wow! Only Janssen is less than impressive. Svanholm rings as Otello. I could only wish that we could hear Melchior and Warren singing the "Sí, pel cel" together! A cage match for the ages!

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I agree, that was fire!! Thanks Woodduck!


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> If you haven't heard Lauritz Melchior singing Otello in German, you need to. If you didn't know the original language was Italian you'd be none the wiser.


& speaking of Otello...I stumbled across this earlier today:






Is it just me, or is this quite bad from both men??


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> & speaking of Otello...I stumbled across this earlier today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I've heard worse... Alagna, for instance.

They aren't quite the real thing. Kaufmann lacks ring, Vratogna's dry as sawdust.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Vratogna was godawful. He shouldn't be anywhere near Verdi roles. Make him sing Beckmesser.

Jonas needs to gain more XP to really own Otello, but overall I liked him.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

I thought about buying the Otello DVD to hear Kaufmann sing the whole thing. But I couldn't stand Vratogna, or whatever his name is, baritone-I've-never-heard-of. One would think that a singer with the star appeal of Kaufmann would be able to demand a better baritone. But, come to think of it, who are those great Verdi baritones today who could do real justice to Iago? I have never been particularly fond of Zeljko Lučič, and he is getting a bit long in the tooth. 

Who could sing Iago in the Leonard Warren tradition? Not with that incredible dark voice, but at least comparable vocal heft and killer high notes?

Kind regards, 

George


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barelytenor said:


> I thought about buying the Otello DVD to hear Kaufmann sing the whole thing. But I couldn't stand Vratogna, or whatever his name is, baritone-I've-never-heard-of. One would think that a singer with the star appeal of Kaufmann would be able to demand a better baritone. But, come to think of it, _*who are those great Verdi baritones today who could do real justice to Iago?*_ I have never been particularly fond of Zeljko Lučič, and he is getting a bit long in the tooth.
> 
> _*Who could sing Iago in the Leonard Warren tradition? Not with that incredible dark voice, but at least comparable vocal heft and killer high notes?*_
> 
> ...


Not to mention Tito Gobbi or, even better, Lawrence Tibbett. Listen to Tibbett on some radio recordings from the old Met. Voice and interpretation phenomenal. Hard to believe now that people sang that well.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Barelytenor said:


> I thought about buying the Otello DVD to hear Kaufmann sing the whole thing. But I couldn't stand Vratogna, or whatever his name is, baritone-I've-never-heard-of. One would think that a singer with the star appeal of Kaufmann would be able to demand a better baritone. But, come to think of it, who are those great Verdi baritones today who could do real justice to Iago? I have never been particularly fond of Zeljko Lučič, and he is getting a bit long in the tooth.
> 
> Who could sing Iago in the Leonard Warren tradition? Not with that incredible dark voice, but at least comparable vocal heft and killer high notes?


I agree with you about the modern day Iagos/Verdi baritones. There seems to be a hole there that needs filling. But is Kaufmann doing justice to past Otello's either?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I agree with you about the modern day Iagos/Verdi baritones. There seems to be a hole there that needs filling. But is Kaufmann doing justice to past Otello's either? I know Kaufmann is the most famous tenor we have, but bad singing is bad singing...


What Otellos today can match Tamagno, Caruso (who died when he was preparing to take on the role), Merli, Martinelli, Del Monaco, Vinay, McCracken or Vickers? To be fair, first-rate Otellos are rare at any time. Kaufmann may be one of the best we can come up with at the moment, but I think his recent forays into full heroic tenor territory are demonstrating his limitations as well as exposing the present sad state of singing. I wouldn't say, from this excerpt, that he's actually _bad,_ but this extroverted music requires a voice with penetrating power and exciting _squillo_ which he doesn't have.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

*Martinelli and Tibbett Sing "Sì, pel ciel" 1938*






I always think of Tibbett as an elegant powerhouse, if that makes any sense. I appreciate his gifts more intellectually than emotionally. There seems to be a certain reserve in his singing somehow, and yet I always appreciate that he is enormously gifted vocally and a wonderful interpreter. Mixed feelings? Yes. Should I listen to him more? Definitely.

And while we're at it, here's Caruso and Tita Ruffo singing the same duet in 1919. An amazing vocal treasure, hard to believe it's 100 years old. This one speaks for itself.






Kind regards,

George


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The greatest Iago imo


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Bonetan said:


> I agree with you about the modern day Iagos/Verdi baritones. There seems to be a hole there that needs filling. But is Kaufmann doing justice to past Otello's either?


I like you despite your forming plurals (actually, one plural) with apostrophe-s. Sorry, it's an OCD thing but it just makes me shudder.  On the plus side, I think we both spend a lot of time thinking about bass-baritone repertoire and singers--and we both are that vocal range.

I never even particularly liked the older Sherrill Milnes in the Iago role (dodging the incoming) as he had a tendency to flat the high notes as he aged vocally, sort of like Jessye Norman did (now really seeing a lot of flak coming in).

I wonder if the modern-day travel requirements are one reason why Verdi baritones (and tenors) just don't seem up to the task ... In olden days they could have more vocal rest perhaps and sing and sound fresher.

Kind regards,

George


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Barelytenor said:


> I like you despite your forming plurals (actually, one plural) with apostrophe-s. Sorry, it's an OCD thing but it just makes me shudder.


Haha! I don't know why I did that!! Makes me shudder too reading it now lol


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Say three Hail Mary's and five Our Father's and go and sin no more. Ite, missa est.

Kind regards,

George


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Well, I've heard worse... Alagna, for instance.
> 
> They aren't quite the real thing. Kaufmann lacks ring, Vratogna's dry as sawdust.


And Vratogna is also flat as a pancake. He is at least a quarter tone out. Woeful, definitely not needful!
I can just about live with singers who sing slightly sharp but singing slightly flat makes me mad!


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> And Vratogna is also flat as a pancake. He is at least a quarter tone out. Woeful, definitely not needful!
> I can just about live with singers who sing slightly sharp but singing slightly flat makes me mad!


That's interesting! Why do you think one bothers you more than the other?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> That's interesting! Why do you think one bothers you more than the other?


I feel the same way, for several reasons. Flatting suggests that the singer is trying for a note but can't reach it, inducing a sense of strain and disappointment in the listener. A slight sharping can "brighten" an interval, while flatting "darkens" it. If flatting occurs on the third of a triad, it can seem to pull the major tonality down toward the minor - a depressing effect - whereas a slightly sharped major third can add brilliance to the harmony. I heard Schwarzkopf do this. Sometimes a singer will push slightly sharp at a climax, or the vibrato may give that illusion, which can actually add a bit of excitement. Battistini would use this "nudging" of the pitch intentionally. I think one could use intentional flatting to convey depression or melancholy, but very, very carefully.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I feel the same way, for several reasons. Flatting suggests that the singer is trying for a note but can't reach it, inducing a sense of strain and disappointment in the listener. A slight sharping can "brighten" an interval, while flatting "darkens" it. If flatting occurs on the third of a triad, it can seem to pull the major tonality down toward the minor - a depressing effect - whereas a slightly sharped major third can add brilliance to the harmony. I heard Schwarzkopf do this. Sometimes a singer will push slightly sharp at a climax, or the vibrato may give that illusion, which can actually add a bit of excitement. Battistini would use this "nudging" of the pitch intentionally. I think one could use intentional flatting to convey depression or melancholy, but very, very carefully.


Thanks Woodduck for the 'techie' explanation. I just hear it as plain wrong and hurtful to my ears. Strangely, eastern and Indian classical music poses no such problems but I think that's down to the harmonics which sound right! I can hear when singers and instrumentalists get intonation wrong and it jars.

BTW I'm vaguely disappointed that no-one got my Wagner reference that I slipped in! Ah well!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Thanks Woodduck for the 'techie' explanation. I just hear it as plain wrong and hurtful to my ears. Strangely, eastern and Indian classical music poses no such problems but I think that's down to the harmonics which sound right! I can hear when singers and instrumentalists get intonation wrong and it jars.
> 
> BTW I'm vaguely disappointed that no-one got my Wagner reference that I slipped in! Ah well!!


It loses something in translation.


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