# Netrebko as Abigaille



## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Your thoughts?


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http://instagr.am/p/CANItY3HFpW/

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CANJhAKHdwS/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

There is also the cabaletta in her story (will be there for 14 more hours or so).

Personally, I think professional singers in non-professional recordings today is not much better than the other way around.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tuoksu said:


> Your thoughts?
> 
> 
> __
> ...


At this point, does it matter? She'll have a success with her fans and opera houses will pay to have her appear - she sells tickets. 
Whatever we may think, happy or dismayed, if it keeps Opera alive, I'm for it. Even if Bartoli sings!


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

MAS said:


> At this point, does it matter? She'll have a success with her fans and opera houses will pay to have her appear - she sells tickets.
> Whatever we may think, happy or dismayed, if it keeps Opera alive, I'm for it. Even if Bartoli sings!


Alive means in good shape. If singing at the met and la scala is at that level, then it might as well be dead.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tuoksu said:


> Alive means in good shape. If singing at the met and la scala is at that level, then it might as well be dead.


Well attendance is not compulsory you know! :lol:


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tuoksu said:


> Alive means in good shape. If singing at the met and la scala is at that level, then it might as well be dead.


I agree. A number of sopranos have squandered their gifts by singing the wrong rep. Whilst it is obviously a rough cut from a work in progress I don't know where to begin to describe what I think about it. One thing I will give her is that she is a stage animal and it will be incredibly exciting singing during the cinema relay, whatever one might think of the technique and whether the role suits her or not.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> I agree. A number of sopranos have squandered their gifts by singing the wrong rep. Whilst it is obviously a rough cut from a work in progress I don't know where to begin to describe what I think about it. One thing I will give her is that she is a stage animal and it will be incredibly exciting singing during the cinema relay, whatever one might think of the technique and whether the role suits her or not.
> 
> N.


I don't actually know why she published this as it is obviously just a work she is learning. I must confess I do tremble for her voice singing a role like this as she is basically a light soprano who is singing heavier roles and this is one killer role for the voice. Not too many sopranos in history have sung it and emerged unscathed! I agree she is really great to watch on stage - stage presence. There have been singers with better voices who have made far less Dramatic impact in a performance


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

It's not really just about singing a role unfit for the voice. If you listen to Tetrazzini and Galli-Curci singing trovatore, they're not the kind of voices you'd cast for Leonora, but it's still GREAT singing.

I know the instagram clips are just Anna learning the role, but as someone who's seen every one of her roles before in its finished state, I know it won't be much better.

I get why she's called "stage animal", she used to be sensual and easy on the eyes, But ever since she started singing dramatic roles her acting got increasingly over-the-top and could be summed up in this face:


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tuoksu said:


> It's not really just about singing a role unfit for the voice. If you listen to Tetrazzini and Galli-Curci singing trovatore, they're not the kind of voices you'd cast for Leonora, but it's still GREAT singing.
> 
> I know the instagram clips are just Anna learning the role, but as someone who's seen every one of her roles before in its finished state, I know it won't be much better.
> 
> ...


I agree. Not just misguided, but definitely insanely wrong. Does she have any brains left?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tuoksu said:


> It's not really just about singing a role unfit for the voice. If you listen to Tetrazzini and Galli-Curci singing trovatore, they're not the kind of voices you'd cast for Leonora, but it's still GREAT singing.
> 
> I know the instagram clips are just Anna learning the role, but as someone who's seen every one of her roles before in its finished state, I know it won't be much better.
> 
> ...


When I say she is a stage animal I don't mean that she is visually exciting, but her vocal delivery (however flawed) has a cut and thrust to it that is very exciting watching her live. Would I want to relive the experience on DVD? Probably not.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I trust she is seeing the music for the first time. In any event it will sound less unpleasant from fifty feet away in a theater. 

Whatever.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Well attendance is not compulsory you know! :lol:


Certainly it is not compulsory yet, thankfully. I will certainly take a pass. Callas was wobbling far less and offering so much more than just chutzpah and criticized. This is to me virtually ugly singing and not adorable and lovely as commented by m_plezic. But she will be amplified, sorry enhanced, and much applauded. Anna's success is a mystery to me.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Tuoksu said:


> It's not really just about singing a role unfit for the voice. If you listen to Tetrazzini and Galli-Curci singing trovatore, they're not the kind of voices you'd cast for Leonora, but it's still GREAT singing.
> 
> I know the instagram clips are just Anna learning the role, but as someone who's seen every one of her roles before in its finished state, I know it won't be much better.
> 
> ...


The angry expression applies to every high note she needs to reach no matter the role or dramatic situation. 

I think that it is due to the great effort she is putting to get them out and to try to sustain a sound that wants to wobble fiercely. The wobble has conquered her middle pronouncedly. And no trace of _kunst_.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Okay, I have never heard her live so I don't know what she sounds like in a house today. I know from the case of Goerke that a voice can grow considerably in size over years. From watching Macbeth and Aida online I can say her voice seems big enough for Verdi now. I just don't find it beautiful anymore. Too wobbly. It worked better for Macbeth than Aida for that reason for me. Just because you can do a fine job with Lady Macbeth does not mean you should therefore undertake Nabucco. I find it much more punishing in it's demands. Callas only sang it once. Dimitrova sang it tons, but she was a freak of nature. I have not heard the clips from Nabucco but my common sense compels me not to.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Okay, I have never heard her live so I don't know what she sounds like in a house today. I know from the case of Goerke that a voice can grow considerably in size over years. From watching Macbeth and Aida online I can say her voice seems big enough for Verdi now. I just don't find it beautiful anymore. Too wobbly. It worked better for Macbeth than Aida for that reason for me. Just because you can do a fine job with Lady Macbeth does not mean you should therefore undertake Nabucco. I find it much more punishing in it's demands. Callas only sang it once. Dimitrova sang it tons, but she was a freak of nature. I have not heard the clips from Nabucco but my common sense compels me not to.


I would suggest listening to the clips if just to hear the obviously exaggerated fake darkening of the voice and the swallowed vowels.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Certainly it is not compulsory yet, thankfully. I will certainly take a pass. Callas was wobbling far less and offering so much more than just chutzpah and criticized. This is to me virtually ugly singing and not adorable and lovely as commented by m_plezic. But she will be amplified, sorry enhanced, and much applauded. Anna's success is a mystery to me.


Well take a pass! Just think of all the money you will save! :lol:

I wish I'd of taken a pass when they showed Wozzek. Awful evening!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MAS said:


> I agree. Not just misguided, but definitely insanely wrong. Does she have any brains left?


She obviously needs your advice and counsel. Have you her number?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tuoksu said:


> It's not really just about singing a role unfit for the voice. If you listen to Tetrazzini and Galli-Curci singing trovatore, they're not the kind of voices you'd cast for Leonora, but it's still GREAT singing.
> 
> I know the instagram clips are just Anna learning the role, but as someone who's seen every one of her roles before in its finished state, I know it won't be much better.
> 
> ...


I would have said that is just the right face for Abigail from what I remember of the lady!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tuoksu said:


> It's not really just about singing a role unfit for the voice. If you listen to Tetrazzini and Galli-Curci singing trovatore, they're not the kind of voices you'd cast for Leonora, but it's still GREAT singing.
> 
> I know the instagram clips are just Anna learning the role, but as someone who's seen every one of her roles before in its finished state, I know it won't be much better.
> 
> ...


I would have said that is just the right face for Abigaille from what I remember of the lady!

Can I just say it's pretty unfair picking on one photograph to describe a singer. I could pick up photographs of Callas which show her in an equally unflattering pose


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

DavidA said:


> She obviously needs your advice and counsel. Have you her number?


Not this coaching/qualification thing again! I think it's been thoroughly discussed in the TIO thread already .


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

2020/2021 she is set for Tosca, Abigaille, Lady Macbeth and Turandot.

That's some combination.

Might help to refresh our memories about who else has sung these roles during their careers.

Maria Callas





Leonie Rysanek





Rita Hunter





Ghena Dimitrova





Grace Bumbry





Another name was Josephine Barstow but I haven't found a clip of her in Nabucco...

It becomes apparent that we were talking very big dramatic-soprano voices.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

annaw said:


> Not this coaching/qualification thing again! I think it's been thoroughly discussed in the TIO thread already .


A one track mind is just that: _one track_.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Can I just say it's pretty unfair picking on one photograph to describe a singer. I could pick up photographs of Callas which show her in an equally unflattering pose
> 
> [/ATTACH]


No, it is not. Watch every performance on video: that is the facial expression no matter the role, the dramatic situation. That's iht.

(I hope I am _qualified_ to make and observations which requires most basic face pattern recognition. Should I send you my qualifications for that too? :lol


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

VitellioScarpia said:


> No, it is not. Watch every performance on video: that is the facial expression no matter the role, the dramatic situation. That's iht.
> 
> (I hope I am _qualified_ to make and observations which requires most basic face pattern recognition. Should I send you my qualifications for that too? :lol


I have watched the videos and also seen her live. I totally disagree with your assessment. I am fully qualified to make that judgment having a pair of eyes! :lol:


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

DavidA said:


> I have watched the videos and also seen her live. I totally disagree with your assessment. I am fully qualified to make that judgment having a pair of eyes! :lol:


Ditto: I have seen her live and in videos. Since the lady started on the big roles the gesture became more pronounced (e.g, compare Macbeth vs. L'Elisir d'Amore). The frustrating thing for me with dear Anna is that I would really like to love her but she gets in the way somehow... 

David, you need to prove your qualifications by submitting a certificate from your optometrist and/or eye doctor who in turn must show their AMA certification. :devil:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Ditto: I have seen her live and in videos. Since the lady started on the big roles the gesture became more pronounced (e.g, compare Macbeth vs. L'Elisir d'Amore). The frustrating thing for me with dear Anna is that I would really like to love her but she gets in the way somehow...
> 
> David, you need to prove your qualifications by submitting a certificate from your optometrist and/or eye doctor who in turn must show their AMA certification. :devil:


Quite OK mate. My eyes were tested recently and found to be fine. But just in case you need this:









btw I don't love Anna. I don't love any opera singer (apart from Freddie in Cenerentola). I just report what I see.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Okay, I have never heard her live so I don't know what she sounds like in a house today. I know from the case of Goerke that a voice can grow considerably in size over years. From watching Macbeth and Aida online I can say her voice seems big enough for Verdi now. I just don't find it beautiful anymore. Too wobbly. It worked better for Macbeth than Aida for that reason for me. Just because you can do a fine job with Lady Macbeth does not mean you should therefore undertake Nabucco. I find it much more punishing in it's demands. Callas only sang it once. Dimitrova sang it tons, but she was a freak of nature. I have not heard the clips from Nabucco but my common sense compels me not to.


SOF, Callas sang Abigaille in *Nabucco* in only *one production*, not just one performance. She sang it three times.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Revitalized Classics said:


> 2020/2021 she is set for Tosca, Abigaille, Lady Macbeth and Turandot
> Another name was Josephine Barstow but I haven't found a clip of her in Nabucco...
> 
> It becomes apparent that we were talking very big dramatic-soprano voices.


Dame Josephine Barstow did not have a very big dramatic soprano voice, she was a lyric with outsized ambition. She's sung Amelia in *Un Ballo in Maschera*, *Macbeth*, *Tosca*, etc. She also sang amazing performances of Salome and Rosalinde (Die Fledermaus) in San Francisco.

Here's an excerpt from *Macbeth*


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

MAS said:


> Dame Josephine Barstow did not have a very big dramatic soprano voice, she was a lyric with outsized ambition. She's sung Amelia in *Un Ballo in Maschera*, *Macbeth*, *Tosca*, etc. She also sang amazing performances of Salome and Rosalinde (Die Fledermaus) in San Francisco.
> 
> Here's an excerpt from *Macbeth*


That's interesting MAS, in that case there is something of a precedent for Netrebko. Otherwise I couldn't think of a lyric soprano graduating to all these parts on stage.

The other examples made the choice seem really incongruous...


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Revitalized Classics said:


> That's interesting MAS, in that case there is something of a precedent for Netrebko. Otherwise I couldn't think of a lyric soprano graduating to all these parts on stage.
> 
> The other examples made the choice seem really incongruous...


She tackled Lady Macbeth when she was in her early 30's and sang it in Glyndebourne, a smallish theatre. I personally don't think that Ms. Barstow was remarkable in those roles. She was controversial, nonetheless.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

VitellioScarpia said:


> She tackled Lady Macbeth she was in her early 30's and sang it in Glyndebourne, a smallish theatre. I personally don't think that Ms. Barstow was remarkable in those roles. She was controversial, nonetheless.


You're right, age and the size of the theatres will also factor into the challenge Netrebko's set herself. She's going to be singing these roles aged 49 in large theatres including Abigaille at the Met...

As you point out, just because Barstow managed it somewhere/somehow was not to say that the results weren't controversial: I was just trying to think of a precedent which might explain why this repertoire would seem like a good idea.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Revitalized Classics said:


> You're right, age and the size of the theatres will also factor into the challenge Netrebko's set herself. She's going to be singing these roles aged 49 in large theatres including Abigaille at the Met...
> 
> As you point out, just because Barstow managed it somewhere/somehow was not to say that the results weren't controversial: I was just trying to think of a precedent which might explain why this repertoire would seem like a good idea.


Yes, there's precedent for Netrebko tackling it. Even Rysanek came to suffer in Abigaille and Rysanek was a much larger instrument than Netrebko and that's why I think that she is playing with fire with Abigaille and venues like the Met. Other than Dimitrova who sang it for many years, most others have been unsatisfying one way or another, or wrecked their voices (starting with Strepponi!).


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