# Which 5 composers reflect the end of this Age



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I am aware there are several topics similar to this Q. But considering things are happening on a daily basis, and we all have renewed ideas in music, things are never static with us, we, like the composers, are evolving. 
Some faster than others.
So lets hear your 5 who voice best the things happening on the worlds stage, composers who were 
so to speak The Prophets.
As a footnote, I do not think there can be any composers pre 1900. as WW1 had not occurred as yet. 
Its quite obvious Shostakovich will be mentioned by everyone,,so I should say, which 4 composers. reflect or speak of world Zeitgeist and its fallout.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Gavin Bryars
Valentin Silvestrov
Humphrey Searle
Edmund Rubbra
Eric Whitacre


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

_WW I?!_ That "age" is ancient history. Even WW II represents a world much different from our own, as anyone born during that time will tell you. Heck, boomers born in the US of A were putting our clothes through the wringer of the Maytag, asking an operator to connect a phone call, walking two miles to school without concern for our safety, watching "Father Knows Best," dancing to American Bandstand, eating Velveeta on Wonder Bread, and believing in truth, justice, and the American way. The present age - the age of the computer, of omnipotent multinational corporations, of resurgent xenophobia and dictatorships, and of looming environmental catastrophe - isn't half a century old and hasn't ended yet, so it's rather hard to say what its "Zeitgeist" is and what music expresses it.

Personally, I think the very concept of "the spirit of an age" is culture-bound, observer-dependent, and finally retrospective - in the short term, a creation of people trying to sell us fashions and automobiles, in the long term a historical novel - and it remains to be seen whether it can even be meaningfully applied to a globalized world.

What you will get here are lists of people's favorite recent composers - or, if they don't like any recent composers, older composers representing the last "Zeitgeist" people think they have an image of.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Good and valid points
well thats kind of what i am saying, *end* of this late mod world. I would say the late 1960's were the end of one phase and the beginning of another. as i recall, 1967 was a transition year. 1967 was very different from 1968. 
I would guess the music i am speaking of is written post 1965.
Yes, thats the time line, ,,sorry I never figure out what zeitgeist i was speaking of. 
Glad you pointed that out. 
so lets beging with muisc Post 1965. as reflecting issues we all face in 2019,,and only growing worse. 
Prisons are packed full, like sardine cans, and yet there are countless criminals needing help in over comming addictions to drugs and poverty, running amok on the streets, many just teenagers!!!. 
Chicago has perhaps 50K juv deliquents. 
Crime is growing worse by the year, mostly due to drug addictions and poverty. 
This is just one of a hundred issues facing us daily. 
This is the composers i am looking for. 
Suggestions?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I sense that the next age will be the Age of the Apocalypse and let’s hope the composers are up to it because I doubt if the previous ones have seriously anticipated it.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

well actually I've heard/read some comments about certain composers who voice some of this current turmoil, hardship, baleful moanings and woes spreading around the planet. 
I just can't recall, for the life of me, the names of such composers,,,maybe others know about or have seen the comments i;'ve witnessed before,,where, when, who,,,these i can not recall.

Or is it not true, that no composer ever felt the world soul sufferings, and so never put into music, these world-soul cries of anguish? 
How unfeeling, how thoughtless, how heartless were the composers post 1965....shameful, 
to ignore and neglect the events taking place around them. Music without feelings, and that of depth,,to me, is not music,,Its only a form of entertainment. 
I am not looking for entertainment in my music. 
feelings have to be there and in depth. If i can not make emotional contact with the composers art, the value is lessened. 
Some composers post 1965, must have witnessed the events taking place and voiced these in muisc.
this is what I am seeking., 
Does anyone know this music, or if it even exists,,?.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> I sense that the next age will be the Age of the Apocalypse


Is this anticipated event, not imminent,,,or even unfolding now as we speak....so its like a part 1, part 2, part 3, etc. as the historians will see clearly as ona mountain top in hundreds of years from now. 
You know there were sages throughout rome which predicted rome's fall, far ahead of its final days.
that is to say, the fall of rome was not 300AD, the beginnings were hundreds years prio, Fall of rome part1,2,3,etc etc,,up to part 100. 
No such thing as rome alive, now dead next day. 
same with us, no such thing as in this year, this month, this day, is THE Final (so titled *The Great destruction* or as you call it, using the greek word apocalypse ,,which is a tidy little tag which is in dire need of updating)


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Not to get too far off the OP/topic,,,but your mention of the word <apocalypse> got me thinking, what the greek orgin has it.,.

UN-Covering. 
= a revealing. 
apocalypse really is not a destruction, more of a revealing about what is taking place. 
so i am looking for music that is a <revelation> of todays/this post 1965 zeitgeist/events 
Thanks for the help,,I knew we could all take this to a more clear idea over the OP's fogginess. 
thanks to Wooduck and now Larkenfield


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I should say the muisc which reflects, describes our world, most likely has asppects of moodiness, despression, angst, turmoil, sorrow, sadness, depressive muisc, dark , brooding,yeah, dark and brooding. 
Schnittke has many works, so thats a easy obvious choice,,,now we are down to 
name 3 composers which reflect the darkness of our world today,,,i just can not recall which composers it was that was mentioned concerning , expressing these dark, moody, full of angst style of material. 
angst, let me look up that word.....yes thats it
music of angst


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm not myself interested in going back to those, including Shostakovich, who may reflect earlier ages. But, for today, are composers who apparently reflect our age really doing so consciously or are we just hearing our favourite living composers as summing up our experience of today's reality? Or, to turn that on its head, is it possible for composers not to address the world they experience? I am sure it is not only the need to make a living that led to Mozart and Haydn writing music with the hallmarks of the Classical era. I am sure they wrote music that reflected how they felt in themselves and about the world.

What is distinct about our modern reality (perhaps compared to the 1920s, the 1950s, the 1980s)? And how might that affect art? I suspect the OP will define any answers to his question concerning today's music as post-modernist and it may even be that some of them are genuinely post-modernist!

For me (and this _is _ inevitably personal), the defining features of our age seem to me to involve powerful interests (corporations) mining the bottom of the barrel of what we once had (including our planet) - possibly increasingly with the danger of destroying the market they rely on - huge population movements and increasing unsympathetic responses to them, the end of our memories of how horrific war is, the growth of petty nationalisms, the growth in popularity of increasingly asinine entertainments in the name of culture (and a reaction to counter that for smaller groups of people who the majority label as "elitist"), amazing technological advances (some of which offer great advantages and hope and others that may have given the powerful unprecedented abilities to control everyone else.

How does art respond to this? Does it contribute to these trends? Do, for examples, artists respond to the growth of petty nationalisms with nationalistic music? Whatever the case is, I think true art may look at microcosms of our situation in individual lives, local places and through "atmospheres" that reflect our reality intruding into landscapes or stories. I am not sure art that tries to encompass the big picture will be very worthwhile.

My own listening doesn't go very far into the very new - George Benjamin is probably the youngest composer whose music I know well - and stops mostly in the 1980s or for aging composers, a bit later. So, having restricted myself to the genuinely "current situation" (one that is very different to the situation of even 20 or 30 years ago), I find myself unable to put forward many suggestions! One thing I will say, though, is that the great composers of all ages talk to me now and seem just as relevant as they ever were.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Good composers will reflect the Zeitgeist (whatever that may mean).

Great composers ARE the Zeitgeist.

I'll now duck for cover and then run......


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Edgar Varese
Shostakovich
Stockhausen
Boulez
Cage
Morton Feldman

Feldman in particular represents the existential, Godless, alienated modern Man.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Nice posts lately, Much to go over,,short on time right now,,,,but yes larkenfield,,,not post modern, lets say 1965 - 2000 compositions. 
,,,gotta run,,,will ck out Feldman today,,although i am diest, i have no issues with anti-diest muisc,,as long as its good and reflects this anti-diest,,epoch,,well lets say the Golden Calf now has lots of little calfs all running amok. 
The sports Gold Cow, The Money Gold Cow, etc etc, ,,,gotta run...Before God only had to deal with one Gold Cow idol,, now He has multitudinous running amok. to deal with.
(God helped me get that spell right 1st time,,,i took a very wild guess,,and believe or not, it went through,,,)


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## Beethoven14 (Feb 14, 2019)




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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The requiem is a form that has often (usually) been "political". I can only think of Faure's as one that genuinely might salve the grief of those who loved the diseased. Not many of us are comforted by thinking of our departed loved ones experiencing a terrifying judgment day. I guess the (Catholic) Church gained from the promotion of such visions.

Benjamin Britten used the form to make a strong pacifist statement with his War Requiem and perhaps with his Sinfonia da Requiem. This latter work was a commission from a Japan that was gearing up for war. I believe they were not delighted with what he wrote for them. Quite a few works from the second half of the 20th Century remembered departed musical heroes (Part's Cantus in Memory of Benjamin Britten, Kancheli's Styx to name two) - perhaps we became more concerned with celebrating our "classical celebrities"?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> The requiem is a form ?


Not sure what you mean,,,but just came across this,,,have no idea anything about this composer, Never ever herad of him, ,,,gotta run,,home in renovation status,,
as i say ???? who/what is this composer/work,,only herard seconds of it...
,,you mention Requiem...,,and i was looking at this,,,synchronistic


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

^^^ Probably Preisner's best-known large work. He's most famous for his film scores, especially the Three Colours trilogy (Kieslowski, said friend in said Requiem), and the beautifully poignant waltz that was the theme tune to The People's Century. It may be Schmaltz, but I just adore this:


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

WEll this i can say,,had Schnittke not suffered ill health at a early age,,and had lived on at least as old as Elliott Carter, there is no doubt Schnittke would have been the greatest composer to have every written music for orchestra/chamber. 
Yes far superior to either Bach and Beethoven,,but alas fate had served him a bad deal. 
And if you wish I can easily back this up with evidence and factual info,,for any who may have concerns a to my authority to say such audacious ideas.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

^^^^ I had thought you might have adjusted your approach by now. It appears I was wrong.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I'd be more interested in knowing what people think are the 5 composers that best represent the age we are in now.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I think Shostakovich and Schnittke , are a good start for muisc of this last age of mankind on earth,,as least in control of earth. 
I mean there are suggestions of death, sadness throughout both composers works. 
Yet we need others to come forth with their best pick,,and at the end, *pun intended,,,we might have your 5 composers for Man's Last Days of Rulership.


what did you think of my suggestion above, Presiner?
I have yet to hear the whole work, as i am in remod of home , too busy, but will hear it today and posta comment as our possible 3rd.


Yes I am changing,,I only made that bold statement considering how much Schnittke suffered all his life,,while Beethoven and Bach has things a bit better off in terms of finances, physical health, recognition.
Beethoven had at least good health til late age, Schnittke had issues early on. 
Try composing in poor health....


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## Rambler (Oct 20, 2017)

'Beethoven had at least good health til late age, Schnittke had issues early on.' ??????????


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

paulbest said:


> WEll this i can say,,had Schnittke not suffered ill health at a early age,,and had lived on at least as old as Elliott Carter, there is no doubt Schnittke would have been the greatest composer to have every written music for orchestra/chamber.
> Yes far superior to either Bach and Beethoven,,but alas fate had served him a bad deal.
> *And if you wish I can easily back this up with evidence and factual info,,for any who may have concerns a to my authority to say such audacious ideas.*


I'd be interested in this evidence and factual info, if it exists.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Kurtág
Ligeti
Webern
Feldman
Bartók


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

paulbest said:


> Not sure what you mean


All I meant was that requiems have long been overt statements with a stronger than usual "political" message. In the old days the message was usually on behalf of Catholicism but from Faure they have tended to display a range of different views ... which come down to their composers' views on what is important.

I couldn't find a YouTube of the whole piece - which you really need to get an idea of it - but this is an appealing take on the requiem theme.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Phil loves classical said:


> I'd be interested in this evidence and factual info, if it exists.


well you asked for it, now you;'ll get IT
I am in the clear of any incrimination which could land me back in the dungeon 

OK, do you recall a topic, where the OP requested suggestions from members as to other works of Bach which provided the nearness of the Bach great great Violin Concerto,,maybe the 2nd in the 6? anyway,,I visited the concerto, as it was quite some time,,and to my surprised , loved it,,,,I thought , sure there must be other works on Bach;'s 1200+ opus where one can find thisn style of composition,,,yet you know,,,the suggestions were comming up,,,short...So i decided to ck out some Bach myself on YT,,and i too cound not locate even 1 work which equals his great great VC 2 in the set. 
Then i got to thinking,,you know I have always felt the Brandenburg concertos were rather,,,bland, nothing like his great VC's. 
Then i got to thinking of how short the suggestion list was, and that really, no one could answer, solidly, his quest for great Bach/VC 2 style works. , with any degree of success./ 
So then I got to thinking,,,hummm, just maybe, i really don;'t have anything to apologize about, for my rants against the overblown Bach worshipping at his altar. 
Perhaps i had a hunch, Bach was more fluff than the real deal. 
1200 masterpieces is what his groupies claim. 
I feel this claim can be challenged,,and thats what I've tried to expose. 
Sure Bach was a supreme genius, in HIS day. 
This is 2019. Not 1700.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Phil loves classical said:


> I'd be interested in this evidence and factual info, if it exists.


I know you were not really expecting any, but even if you were hoping for just a sliver of evidence and factual info, you did not get it.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> The requiem is a form that has often (usually) been "political". I can only think of Faure's as one that genuinely might salve the grief of those who loved the diseased. Not many of us are comforted by thinking of our departed loved ones experiencing a terrifying judgment day. I guess the (Catholic) Church gained from the promotion of such visions.
> 
> Benjamin Britten used the form to make a strong pacifist statement with his War Requiem and perhaps with his Sinfonia da Requiem. This latter work was a commission from a Japan that was gearing up for war. I believe they were not delighted with what he wrote for them. Quite a few works from the second half of the 20th Century remembered departed musical heroes (Part's Cantus in Memory of Benjamin Britten, Kancheli's Styx to name two) - perhaps we became more concerned with celebrating our "classical celebrities"?


OK, Now i understand your ideas. 
So the Requiem took on other styles, venues for ideas,beginning with Faure's Requiem. 
Whereas previous where mainly Requiems styled after catholicISM doctrines, visions.

Schnittke in his great requiem , took a turn back to the roots of the old requiem models. 
His score takes the Mozartian model but adds to the original wording. making the imagery even more potent , powerful, daunting.
I love Schnittke's choice of libretto used in his Requiem. 
Strange and yet another conflicting juxtaposition in Schnittke's multifaceted life, He became converted to roman catholicism,, yet his works borrow/influenced from russian orthodox traditions.

This is a near faultless, * wish the 2 bass baritones had more heft, yet still are in great tune with the work* performance of Schnittke's Requiem. 
Near matches the Russian recording/Chandos, as some are saying in the YT comment section.

This is a very committed performance, and it shows in every detail.






Did Schnittke really believe in the visions of afterlife,as represented in his Requiem? 
We know from his writings, his spiritual insights equal his creations in his music.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I empathize with the sorrows of everyone who still cannot get over The Great War. What a depressing disaster.

I do not believe, however, in the modern times being a time for minimalism, sorrow or anything of this sort. It is nowadays that I could see the most magnificent symphonies being written for everything that is being achieved on a daily basis; for all the progress in science, or in medicine, where yesterday's death sentence is today's tummy ache. For spaceflight, for the development of the internet, and for bringing of societies together. I am puzzled how is it not the era of most swinging, tuneful music.

With that being said, the composer who reflects an end of _some _era is definitely John Williams. When he started working in the early 1950s, virtually all legends of the Golden Era Hollywood were still alive. And in the futuristic 2019, he still composes wonders like the recent Galaxy's Edge Suite. He is at the same time the best and the last of his generation of composers. Hats off when he departs.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

someone mention John Williams is a theif,,,can not recall which composer I was listening to on YT and read that comment. 
And then not knowing JW's music very well, I think the guy knew his accusation was accurate, you could tell. 
Oh if only I recall which of the composers he was refering. 

But really this world is splintered and divided in all corners. 


Lets all think, step back for one moment in time. Has there been any composer since the passing of Carter and Henze, who has potential to carry on a tradition of writing at least as great as their output. 
The tradition is over,,,It never will rejuvinate, be restored to its once former glory when a Beethoven symphony had the entire Berlijn and Vienna population waiting eagerly at the doors for the concert to begin, folks lining the streets to catch the echos of the music wafting through the open doors and windows. The talk of the town was *did you attend yesterday's afternoon concert of Beethoven's 7th symphony,,oh no,,well let me tell you, you missed the show of your life...*. 
No all that is gone.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

paulbest said:


> well you asked for it, now you;'ll get IT
> I am in the clear of any incrimination which could land me back in the dungeon
> 
> OK, do you recall a topic, where the OP requested suggestions from members as to other works of Bach which provided the nearness of the Bach great great Violin Concerto,,maybe the 2nd in the 6? anyway,,I visited the concerto, as it was quite some time,,and to my surprised , loved it,,,,I thought , sure there must be other works on Bach;'s 1200+ opus where one can find thisn style of composition,,,yet you know,,,the suggestions were comming up,,,short...So i decided to ck out some Bach myself on YT,,and i too cound not locate even 1 work which equals his great great VC 2 in the set.
> ...


The above is just a series of personal opinions - not evidence, no facts. There's nothing here.


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## ECraigR (Jun 25, 2019)

paulbest said:


> someone mention John Williams is a theif,,,can not recall which composer I was listening to on YT and read that comment.
> And then not knowing JW's music very well, I think the guy knew his accusation was accurate, you could tell.
> Oh if only I recall which of the composers he was refering.
> 
> ...


That has to do with the state of Classical Music in society, not with the caliber of composers. There are many great, living composers. Carter and Henze are great, I agree, but as you are quick to point out: it's 2019. They aren't writing anymore in 2019.


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