# Sick of misuse of the term "Classical"



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

OK, so I'm something of a purist never more so than in misuse of English words in general and music in particular. 

Look at any advertisements, including from mainstream sellers and you will find all kinds of rubbish included in the lists of "classical' music. A recent example is "Fishpond" that until recently was a reliable source of Classical CDs. Now, they include Elvis Presley, Shirley Bassey and so many other pop singers under that listing. Of course, the private ads are even worse. So the Beatles are now classical music?

While I'm having my rant, would someone please take up the challenge with novelists who insist on using the term "crescendo" to mean the peak/highest point of sound when it actually means the progressive increase itself. Even the Oxford dictionary gets it wrong

I'll get back into my box now.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

A debate on contemporary experimental music inbound


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

The Oxford Dictionary understands that some people refer to "crescendo" as a peak of sound, so it includes that definition.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Really, I think the term "Classical" itself in music is a misnomer. In Art and Architecture and poetry, people imitated the style of the "Classical Period" of Greece. But neither the galant composers, nor the Vienesse "Classical" composers managed to imitate the Ancient Greek music style. We do not even know what it was!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

ORigel said:


> But neither the galant composers, nor the Vienesse "Classical" composers managed to imitate the Ancient Greek music style. We do not even know what it was!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio
"Ancient Greek mathematicians first studied what we now call the golden ratio, because of its frequent appearance in geometry; the division of a line into "extreme and mean ratio" (the golden section) is important in the geometry of regular pentagrams and pentagons."










Interestingly, some speculate that Mozart's sonata movements _generally_ tend toward this "golden ratio" of 0.618.
For example, Mozart's piano sonatas:
E = number of measures in the exposition
D = number of measures in the development+recapitulation
No. 1, K.279 1st movement { E = 38 | D = 62 }
E/(D+E) = 0.620 *
No. 16, K.570 1st movement { E = 79 | D = 130 }
E/(D+E) = 0.622
No. 7, K.309 1st movement { E = 59 | D = 97 }
E/(D+E) = 0.622 
No. 16, K.545 1st movement { E = 28 | D = 45 }
E/(D+E) = 0.616
No. 10, K.330 1st movement { E = 57 | D = 92 }
E/(D+E) = 0.617
No. 2, K.280 1st movement { E = 52 | D = 88 }
E/(D+E) = 0.611

* the entire movement is 100 bars. [ 38 bars of exposition | 62 bars of development + recapitulation ] is the closest ratio you can get with whole numbers to 0.618.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I have no dog in this fight. Don't get me started on "Begs the question," though...


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2020)

aussiebushman said:


> OK, so I'm something of a purist never more so than in misuse of English words in general and music in particular.
> 
> Look at any advertisements, including from mainstream sellers and you will find all kinds of rubbish included in the lists of "classical' music. A recent example is "Fishpond" that until recently was a reliable source of Classical CDs. Now, they include Elvis Presley, Shirley Bassey and so many other pop singers under that listing.


I can certainly see the problem with Fishpond. Dolly, EmmyLou and Linda, their best selling 'classical'!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I think it’s because so much is classified by computer these days without checking by human agency. So in other words ‘Classic Elvis Hits’ comes into the ‘Classical’ classification.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> I can certainly see the problem with Fishpond. Dolly, EmmyLou and Linda, their best selling 'classical'!


Well, Linda played Mimi in "La Boheme." Also Mabel in "The Pirates of Penzance." The first was never released as a recording to my knowledge. Her "Pirates," with Kevin Kline among others, is the only G&S recording in my collection. I saw it twice on stage (including opening night on Broadway). Best part - the loony re-orchestrations. There's a film version, which added Angela Lansbury as Ruth, but the magic got lost.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

ORigel said:


> The Oxford Dictionary understands that some people refer to "crescendo" as a peak of sound, so it includes that definition.


That is a new diminuendo in its standards.


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

Even if you exclude the Beatles and co. from the semantic field of "classical music", the limits are unclear.

Is it the style between baroque and romantic? Or a time period? Or anything before dodecaphonic for instance? Or shall it mean erudite music?

My first violin professor had a simpler definition for classical music:
"We still play on the strings".
Easy to apply, gives a clear answer.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Even though I still use the umbrella term 'classical music' despite it being technically incorrect, I also say "Western Art Music" to be more specific as to what I'm talking about, since it's a tradition that's spanned the course of centuries and it feels weird calling anything 20th century or contemporary 'classical music' per se.

As a side note, outside of people who are classical musicians, I more often encounter people who pretend to like classical music or gain some cursory knowledge of it as an attempt to look smart or sophisticated (as if listening to a genre of music somehow makes one inherently smarter) as opposed to people who _genuinely _ like it without any false pretenses. It makes me sad.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Even though I still use the umbrella term 'classical music' despite it being technically incorrect, I also say "Western Art Music" to be more specific as to what I'm talking about, since it's a tradition that's spanned the course of centuries and it feels weird calling anything 20th century or contemporary 'classical music' per se.
> 
> As a side note, outside of people who are classical musicians, I more often encounter people who pretend to like classical music or gain some cursory knowledge of it as an attempt to look smart or sophisticated (as if listening to a genre of music somehow makes one inherently smarter) as opposed to people who _genuinely _ like it without any false pretenses. It makes me sad.


Oddly enough, I believe there is some overlap in that group with people who misuse "begs the question."


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Oddly enough, I believe there is some overlap in that group with people who misuse "begs the question."


I think there's also some overlap in that group with people who think Super Collider is a good album  (JK)

Though it's not as bad as the reviews made it out to be when it was first released, IMO. I think Risk is light-years worse.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I think there's also some overlap in that group with people who think Super Collider is a good album  (JK)
> 
> Though it's not as bad as the reviews made it out to be when it was first released, IMO. I think Risk is light-years worse.


I had to google this to understand the reference. I had no idea the LHC detector had been pictured on a Megadeth album cover. I'm just that special sort of nerd who is an aficionado of classical music, philosophy, and particle physics (also Star Trek).


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## Bill Schuster (Oct 22, 2019)

I made my introductory post minutes ago, with the title "from classic rock to classical". I saw this thread title and thought..."uh oh". I assumed this would be a complaint about people using "classical" as a catch all genre title, rather than a specific era. I'm rather broad minded regarding music genre inclusions. Political categories being misinterpreted are my trigger, but I'll leave that alone.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I had to google this to understand the reference. I had no idea the LHC detector had been pictured on a Megadeth album cover. I'm just that special sort of nerd who is an aficionado of classical music, philosophy, and particle physics (also Star Trek).


Y'know, I'd never actually seen a picture of the hadron collider until now. This whole time I was thinking you were just a huge Megadeth fan :lol:


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

I agree completely that the term "classical" as used to describe the entire range of what we generally call classical is a misnomer and yes, it should actually be used to describe the specific style and period. 

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern comment seems reasonable: "I also say "Western Art Music" to be more specific as to what I'm talking about, since it's a tradition that's spanned the course of centuries and it feels weird calling anything 20th century or contemporary 'classical music' per se. However, that does not essentially negate my argument that using the term "classical" for rock, pop and so forth is fundamentally offensive to a true lover of "classical" music. 

Candidly, it is not often I agree with DavidA but he is probably right to blame database search terms for the inclusion of anything with the term "classic" into the classical lists. However, it is humans who set the parameters and they cannot be absolved


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> Well, Linda played Mimi in "La Boheme." Also Mabel in "The Pirates of Penzance." The first was never released as a recording to my knowledge. Her "Pirates," with Kevin Kline among others, is the only G&S recording in my collection. I saw it twice on stage (including opening night on Broadway). Best part - the loony re-orchestrations. There's a film version, which added Angela Lansbury as Ruth, but the magic got lost.


Thanks for that.

Just in case some here haven't actually looked at Fishpond, I was referring to the 'Trio' album of songs they did together, not to the individual artists and their blossoming classical careers.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

I'm sick of it and I want it stopped!


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Enthalpy said:


> My first violin professor had a simpler definition for classical music:
> "We still play on the strings".
> Easy to apply, gives a clear answer.


Pop and Rock and Disco music have had strings included since the 50s. My mom used to have a few albums by *101 Strings*, which at the time I called Elevator Music.

Nevertheless I understand what the professor was trying to get at.

I don't know, I think the most troublesome problem in defining "Classical" is that "classical" is a catch-all garbage term. As already pointed out, "Classical" in Art is a far different sort of Classical, and does not have any significant bearing on Classical music.

And, also already pointed out, in music "Classical" refers not only to Western Art Music, but to a specific sub-genre of Classical Music (Western Art Music) as well.

I ran across this list of Classical Music genres https://www.musicgenreslist.com/music-classical/:

Avant-Garde
Baroque
Chamber Music
Chant
Choral
Classical Crossover
Early Music
High Classical
Impressionist
Medieval
Minimalism
Modern Composition
Opera
Orchestral
Renaissance
Romantic
Wedding Music

. . . And while they were at it they took a stab at defining Classical music:

Classical music is rooted in Western culture. It includes both religious and secular music.

_Sometimes, the term classical is used to refer to music from the Classical period (1750 to 1820). It is more commonly used in reference to the art music tradition is contained in the Classical period, though, and related amalgamations._

. . . then they break it down into *eras*:

Baroque
Classical
Romantic
Modernist

. . . and that's it. The Impressionists are lumped in somewhere, they weren't very specific.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I mean, some people don't even like using "classical" to refer to anything outside of the 18th century Classical era. I solve the problem by using capital-C "Classical" for the era and lower case-c "classical" for the catch-all "Western art music". Classical music as opposed to popular music or folk music.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

aussiebushman said:


> OK, so I'm something of a purist never more so than in misuse of English words in general and music in particular. . . .


I think someone has correctly assigned a likely cause for something like Elvis or Bassey being grouped as classical. Since classical is also a specific period within the larger realm of what is traditionally referred to as classical music, it would be nice to have an umbrella term, but I don't think that I have ever seen a good suggestion in this regard. (Orchestral music, for example, leaves out chamber and solo works. It also fails to convey some sense of unity based on how the orchestra is used.)


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Classical music should be refering to all music composed before 19th century, while the whole 19th century music belongs to the Romanticism and the later to modernist category. Western classical music is unique across the whole history, many specialists in baroque music say it is impossible to know exactly how people played music in the antiquity, all we can do is to approximate as much as possible. When people can be so reasonably pessimistic about their own heritage which is so great, why can not they see that it is the modernist movements in all possible aspects of life have changed the general perspective of our musical understanding? 

I know that life was cruel in ancient times, but it is a huge mistake to say think that just because a few noble people lived better making the reality more crueller. This is a vulgar ignorance shared by majority of people. We are not much better than in ancient times, everything we are dued seems to be more accessible that is all. But it is just an illusion. Generally, making more people rich blinds us to the reality that the reality of human life in general is still as miserable as anytime in antiquity. The only thing we have today in common that extraodinarily distinguishes our time is the amount of shared misunderstanding of our own history. Such shared ignorance leads to not just the underestimation of the musical heritage, also the deliberate destruction of it. The fact is modern leftist movement in all forms has costed more beyond popular understanding while doping the mass into believing in a false prosperity. 

Humanity is aeternally miserable, we have to accept all the miseries, there is no meaning outside our ancient faith and destiny. If we accept false hopes we will lost everything that is good. Let music and art be the only relief we can ever have in this aeternal ordeal, let those either true or fake choosen ones continue to live their extravagant life. I only want art, music which had been the professions of the common in ancient times so thanks very much. There is no greater life than being an artist. 

I can not altogather clear my speech from non-music topics while talking about musical tastes, sorry. I am tended to call people who encourages such popular ignorance among people and within all aspects of life as the left, such ideological camp in the west is no less powerful than those in the east. To understand our current modern circumstances is vital to reevaluate our heritages in all forms. I think, we all have our own respective heritages to be salvaged from the destruction by the left, it is our common interest starting from sharing music.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

It is not impossible to fully revive the way and art of ancient people, only when people dare to challenge the popular ignorance and the vicious pushers behind it. But, by resisting against the left can we make our life easier, no, but we can hand down better legacies to our posterity and to God. The continued sharing and handing down our will, passion, music, art is the only goal in this toughest struggle.


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