# Bring on the Warhorses!



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

I woke this morning, turned the radio on, heard a piece, and I go: Today, I shall devote an entire thread to the Warhorses of the performance repertoire. Those works we all love to hate and cannot do without. So let us strut them out.

Are there Warhorses you still enjoy _*every single time*_ you hear it played on radio, in the concert hall, or on your home stereo? Have you come back to those pieces, after rejecting them for *overuse or familiarity*? Are you so sick and tired of one particular piece -- you know, that damn filler in the program notes, performed every holiday season or summer evening?

Do you have any other comments on why these pieces -- the ones always performed or requested -- are "warhorses," if you will? Like, *why these works*? How did _this_ piece of music, versus that other one, become so renown?

Loads of questions, hope that kicks it off.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Avey said:


> Are there Warhorses you still enjoy every single time you hear it played on radio, in the concert hall, or on your home stereo?


Mendelssohn 4.

Every. Damn. Time.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Beethoven's 5th will never go stale for me


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

ahammel said:


> Mendelssohn 4.


Already controversy. You consider Mendelssohn's Fourth (assuming we are talking the symphony here) a "warhorse?" I have never seen the work performed or listed for performance anywhere near me. I rarely hear the work played on radio either.

But we all know it, right? So maybe it is.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Is that the Italian Symphony? or the Scottish, or the Reformation? I don't think His Symphonies are referred to by a number.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I have never grown tired of any warhorse. Every work that I imagine others here would think of as a warhorse, I love whenever I hear it in concert, on the radio, or when I decide to put it on. 

For the past several years I have listened to primarily new music (modern/contemporary or new to me) so I don't hear the warhorses too often. I can imagine performers being much less interested after playing some many times. Probably the works I have heard the most are Mozart's symphonies 40 and 41. I simply can't imagine ever not being overwhelmed with their immense beauty.

My daughter told me a story from one of her professors. She was playing The Nutcracker in a live performance. She seemed to remember dozing off and waking up still playing. I'm not sure I quite believe that she was really asleep and on auto-pilot, but maybe she nodded off for a second or two.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Italian.

It's not a warhorse? Well, then it should be 

I imagine if we restrict the criteria too much we're going to find that there are no warhorses not written by Beethoven.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

ahammel said:


> I imagine if we restrict the criteria too much we're going to find that there are no warhorses not written by Beethoven.


I do not mean to restrict at all. Depends on the individual. I simply meant to comment on the fact that I have never seen or had the chance to see that symphony performed.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

I don't get tired of Brahms' 4th, Beethoven's 9th, 5th, or Mozart's 40th.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I never tire of a single Haydn or Mozart or Beethoven symphony. Every one of them is awesome in its own unique way.

Warhorses are fabulous as long as they aren't the only things that you listen to.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> Warhorses are fabulous as long as they aren't the* only things that you listen to*.


Well, here is the problem, right?: Classical radio -- not everywhere, but in some regions -- focus on these pieces. The pieces that are _always_ on the program, _always_ requested, continually get played. After some time, they do get tired and trite -- by no fault of their own. I could eat a blueberry scone everyday; but I choose to vary it up, for the sake of preserving that pleasure.

This is the same issue with performances. Like, why do quartets _always_ play Death and the Maiden when they visit here? Why does every house quartet decide to the do the Beethoven cycle this season and play Op. 130 and 131 by, according to the notes, random choice.

Hence, a "warhorse" is _exactly_ *the thing you only listen to*, simply because it is played _*all the time.*_ Does that make sense?


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

Full disclosure: This thread came about because I heard Dvorak's 12th Quartet on the local classical station here today. Thus, my responses are not my rebuking your comments; rather they are my attempts at furthering the discussion.


And of the many pieces I could rattle off that I grow so tired of hearing, this quartet is not on that list. Despite the numerous listens, I have yet to tire of this piece. And I cannot quite understand why.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Mahler's 7th. I never tire of it.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I have not grown tired of Bach's famous six Brandenburg Concertos. Today these great concertos are the pinnacle concerti writing from the Baroque.

Likewise with Handel's twelve concertos, opus six.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

No warhorses for me. Only solo harpsichord Bach at this time with a smattering of the cello suites.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I like hearing the warhorses. I think we should have thousands upon thousands of warhorses  Then, we wouldn't have to play them too often, but often enough to relish in their greatness. I don't listen to radio much, except when on road trips and only before 13h00, when the station (CBC Radio Two) stops playing classical, so I am not subjected to the warhorses like you apparently appear to be. I listen 99% at home, so I choose what's playing and I have a continually running campaign to play all of my albums. I started keeping track about 2½ years ago and there are still at least ⅓ of my albums that have only had one playing. Nevertheless, I find that anticipation is as big factor in my enjoyment as is surprise. Surprise lasts only for the first couple of times I hear a piece, but anticipation lasts forever. I find that I always get enjoyment from, even hear something new in, a composition that I have heard quite a few times, provided that I'm really listening. My personal warhorses are not necessarily _the_ warhorses, but there is overlap.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

IF you are old enough, and that is for me now over six decades, and IF through those decades you have been heavily immersed in classical music for 61 years, then, yes, the most glorious of masterworks, if heard often enough over such a length of time, can pall, and even become, as the saying goes, contemptible through far too much familiarity. That is not to say that when it does enter your airspace via radio, etc. that you do not still recognize it for the masterwork it still is, but you do recognize you have had enough of it, perhaps for the projected remainder of your life. Because, comes a time when no matter how great the present condition of mind and body, there is no denying that what time you may have in to the projected future is limited, and you are keenly aware at 60, say that you can no longer really so much bank on another ten, twenty or thirty years ahead.

Since I still love music to bits, that means priorities shift to works I love, works which I think great or worthwhile, that have not had the same play because they are not those universally popular warhorses. 

I will admit, though, without wishing to deprive other generations the excitement and pleasure of some of those warhorses, that I wouldn't mind seeing some of those chestnuts roasting over a personal fire. I.e. there are whole chunks of the greatest repertoire I'm certain I could live without the rest of whatever time I have, that much enough of them I think I've had,

And no, folks, out of respect for that repertoire, and some degree of thoughtfulness of those who are in no way done with those pieces, I am not going to name one piece or composer


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> I have not grown tired of Bach's famous six Brandenburg Concertos. Today these great concertos are the pinnacle concerti writing from the Baroque.
> 
> Likewise with Handel's twelve concertos, opus six.


The Brandenburg Concertos also came to my mind and I've only realized recently how brilliant Handel's Op. 6 is.

But for another couple, I'll say Mozart's Clarinet Concerto and Beethoven's 6th Symphony.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I have the advantage of a poor melody-memory, or at least it is poor enough that I can't hum many of them. To use a 'super-warhorse for example, as long as I can avoid hearing Beethoven's 5th for at least 3 years, the next time I listen to it I don't know what's coming next until it gets there.

Same deal with novels I enjoy first time through, except it take around 5 years to make them fresh enough, and I have to lose more of the details in the interim.

The above is not caused by my brain shrinking, I've always been that way. Except for proper names; I used to be better at those. I'm just a lucky guy,eh.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't listen to the radio much, classical stations or otherwise, so works which could be termed 'the usual suspects' aren't likely to grate due to overexposure or whatever. If I ever tire of a work then the buck will stop with me as I'm the only one who decides what I listen to.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Petroushka 
The Firebird 
Pathetique Sonata 
Prelude To The Afternoon Of A Faun
Peer Gynt
Capriccio Espagnol
Overture to Candide
Appalachian Spring
An American In Paris, Three Preludes


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Beethoven: 5th and 9th symphonies, Pathétique and Moonlight piano sonatas
Mozart: 40th symphony, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, overtures
Bach: Brandenberg Concerti, first prelude from WTC
Handel: Hallelujah Chorus from Messiah
Dvorak: New World Symphony and American quartet
Grieg: Piano concerto
Pachelbel: Canon in D
Schubert: Trout Quintet
Tchaikovsky: Nutcracker

Sorry to all those who hate these works.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Avey said:


> Well, here is the problem, right?: Classical radio -- not everywhere, but in some regions -- focus on these pieces. The pieces that are _always_ on the program, _always_ requested, continually get played. After some time, they do get tired and trite -- by no fault of their own. I could eat a blueberry scone everyday; but I choose to vary it up, for the sake of preserving that pleasure.
> 
> This is the same issue with performances. Like, why do quartets _always_ play Death and the Maiden when they visit here? Why does every house quartet decide to the do the Beethoven cycle this season and play Op. 130 and 131 by, according to the notes, random choice.
> 
> Hence, a "warhorse" is _exactly_ *the thing you only listen to*, simply because it is played _*all the time.*_ Does that make sense?


No, it doesn't make any sense. I think we've all heard a lot of music beyond the warhorses.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Avey said:


> Do you have any other comments on why these pieces -- the ones always performed or requested -- are "warhorses," if you will? Like, *why these works*? How did _this_ piece of music, versus that other one, become so renown?


I think this is the most interesting part of your question, one that neither I nor any of the other respondents have, so far and to the best of my knowledge, yet addressed. _Why do certain pieces become warhorses and not others?_

I can think of only a few possible reasons:

1. The composer is very famous. This is somewhat circular, because he is famous because of a certain piece, but the piece is famous because it was written by a certain composer.

2. The piece has a catchy theme or is especially lush and pretty.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

brotagonist said:


> 2. The piece has a catchy theme or is especially lush and pretty.


Maybe the _Rite of Spring_ falls into the former condition. Rhythmic, instinctual, animalistic, raw.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

MoonlightSonata said:


> Beethoven: 5th and 9th symphonies, Pathétique and Moonlight piano sonatas
> Mozart: 40th symphony, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, overtures
> Bach: Brandenberg Concerti, first prelude from WTC
> Handel: Hallelujah Chorus from Messiah
> ...


The thought that anyone might hate even a few of these works is truly sad. Hopefully the worst someone could say is that they can't enjoy them as much as earlier.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

My war horse is all nine of Beethoven's symphonies, preferably heard one after another and in order. Mendelssohn's five symphonies are my second war horse, it's just that I rarely have time away from Beethoven's nine to listen to mendelssohn's five. .


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

mmsbls said:


> The thought that anyone might hate even a few of these works is truly sad. Hopefully the worst someone could say is that they can't enjoy them as much as earlier.


They are amazing - unfortunately, though, some of them are not unanimously loved.
I have heard people criticise the Bach prelude, the Moonlight Sonata, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, the Pachelbel and the Schubert.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Vivaldi's Four Seasons

Beethoven's 3rd and 5th symphonies

Mozart's 40th symphony and his piano concertos #20 and #21 and Don Giovanni 

Verdi's and Wagner's most famous operas


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

I have definitely, categorically played 3 warhorses to the point of saturation: Tchaik 5 +6 and Dvorak 9. Two of them are wonderful pieces and I hope to enjoy them anew at some point in the future. Tchaik 5 not so much (except, perhaps, for the wonderful Waltz)


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2015)

Scheherazade,

Rhapsody in Blue,

American in Paris,

Gymnopedie, 

and even...

Bolero!!

Nauseous yet?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

The war horses that I liked when I got to know them on first listening (mid 80s), I still like. The war horses I did not like then, I still don't like.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I enjoy most of 'm as long as I haven't heard them in a (long) while.
Once a year on january 1 I thoroughly enjoy An der schönen blauen Donau


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

In defence of all the Warhorses out there, I think they became so for a reason, they lasted the course.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I still like a lot of the music that I discovered when I got in to this game, but having heard some of it a bit to much I ration how much I listen to it today, and that is mostly music prior to Mahler. Gustav is so multi dimensional that I still don't get tired of listening to his music, fx. the Fourth being my favourite, I listen to it quite often, perhaps one every fourth night! But the older I get, the more important the exploration of the unknown becomes, I don't always like or even understand what comes to my ears, but my brain is slightly weird, the less I understand a form of music or a composers intent the more intrigued I get! 

My reaction to the "war horses" is perhaps the opposite, as the western culture within where I live has such an overfilled back pack of expectations that one has to negotiate before one can undress and transform these horses in to something new and interesting.. I often listen to new recordings of these war horses and think, what ill spent money, feeling that the new recording do not bring anything worth while in comparison to the twenty or so I already have in my library!

/ptr


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Recently at work when my iPod had a low battery I plugged my headphones into the computer and looked desperately on line for a streaming classical station. I made the mistake of picking the first one that came up in search. I was quickly treated to a rapid succession of Ravel's Bolero, Vivaldi's Winter, Bach's Air on a G String, Barber's Adagio, each with the host gushing about what a real treat they would be. I turned it off for fear they would get around to Pachelbel's Canon next. 

One should never listen to warhorses all at one time. While that experience sickened me, I do think it's a little weird to want to never hear a piece you once loved again. That would be like saying you don't need to see your family ever again. (But then perhaps some really are in that situation.)

I'm waiting until I get a little older and more frail before revisiting Dvorak's 9th symphony. I've loved it since it was still being called the 5th. 

Of the warhorse I never tire of, I'd say the usual suspects, the Vaughan Williams Tallis Fantasia and of course Beethoven's 9th. But I willfully limit my exposure to them. Add to that Mendelssohn's Hebrides Overture and Schubert's Unfinished (whatever number it's supposed to be now).

I think if we look at most warhorses there is some melodic or rhythmic hook similar to the pop music hook.


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## Stavrogin (Apr 20, 2014)

Off the top of my head... Bach's WTC, Mozart's Requiem, Beethoven's 9th, Schubert's Unfinished, Ravel's Bolero.


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## Überstürzter Neumann (Jan 1, 2014)

Warhorses are fine and proud animals, and I tend to like a lot of them, none mentioned none forgotten.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

ahammel said:


> Italian.
> 
> It's not a warhorse? Well, then it should be
> 
> I imagine if we restrict the criteria too much we're going to find that there are no warhorses not written by Beethoven.


The Italian would definitely qualify as a warhorse. I have heard it in concert often and it always seems to show up on the various radio stations. And it is a masterpiece.
Another interesting feature of warhorses is that they tend to obscure other great works by the same composer. The Scottish Symphony rarely seems to get played these days and it's also a great atmospheric piece. Dvorak's New World gets so much more air time than his equally great 8th Symphony. Bruch's First Violin Concerto dominates his other Violin and Orchestra works, including the Scottish Fantasy.
My wife tends to fall in love with a piece and leave the same CD in her car stereo forever. I think Scherezade has been there for the last year. Before that it was Mozart's 21st Piano Concerto (the so called Elvira Madigan Concerto).


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Avey said:


> Well, here is the problem, right?: Classical radio -- not everywhere, but in some regions -- focus on these pieces. The pieces that are _always_ on the program, _always_ requested, continually get played. After some time, they do get tired and trite -- by no fault of their own. I could eat a blueberry scone everyday; but I choose to vary it up, for the sake of preserving that pleasure.
> 
> This is the same issue with performances. Like, why do quartets _always_ play Death and the Maiden when they visit here? Why does every house quartet decide to the do the Beethoven cycle this season and play Op. 130 and 131 by, according to the notes, random choice.
> 
> Hence, a "warhorse" is _exactly_ *the thing you only listen to*, simply because it is played _*all the time.*_ Does that make sense?


Do you listen to Internet Radio? You won't be restricted geographically if you do and you get a couple of thousand more choices.. However, the warhorses show up on the various stations that I llisten to as well; they are popular for a reason.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

One reason I came here was to escape the same old warhorses and find great unfamiliar music to listen to.
I found the Schoenberg Piano Concerto and I'm grateful to the posters who recommended it to me.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2015)

Everybody who knows nothing about classical music still is familiar with the love theme from Tchaikovsky's "Romeo and Juliet", although that's the only part of the work they ever hear. I can listen to the entire overture a thousand times through and still enjoy every note.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Jerome said:


> Everybody who knows nothing about classical music still is familiar with the love theme from Tchaikovsky's "Romeo and Juliet", although that's the only part of the work they ever hear. I can listen to the entire overture a thousand times through and still enjoy every note.


Well I don't know what it is, but perhaps if I heard it I might say "oh, that sounds familiar."


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2015)

Yes I'm sure you would. And if you haven't heard of it you should familiarize yourself with it soon.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

ITunes Radio is the best. I never got a warhouse using that streaming function on my iPhone.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

No, just battlenags


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

1812 Overture still gets me every time. I have grown partial to the choral version over the years.


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