# Celibidache and Mahler!!!



## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Can you imagine Celibidache, of course after he became acquainted with Buddhism, conducting Mahler's symphonies? How long would they drag on? 2 hours or more? His Adagios would have been what eternity might have sounded like in music.( of course we have glimpses of eternity from his Bruckner Adagios)


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Ned Low said:


> Can you imagine Celibidache, of course after he became acquainted with Buddhism, conducting Mahler's symphonies? How long would they drag on? 2 hours or more? His Adagios would have been what eternity might have sounded like in music.( of course we have glimpses of eternity from his Bruckner Adagios)


I _do_ wonder how long it would take for a Celibidache performance of John Cage's 4'33". Certainly the conductor couldn't perform it with an orchestra in less than, say, seven minutes?

Still, I remain a fan of Celibidache's recordings.


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Could've gone for Celibidache and Tristan und Isolde! I don't think Tristan and Isolde would ever die in that as Celi's Liebesnacht would never end.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Ned Low said:


> Could've gone for Celibidache and Tristan und Isolde! I don't think Tristan and Isolde would ever die in that as Celi's Liebesnacht would never end.


I had a similar thought concerning Mahler. If Celibidache could ever get to the Ninth, that work's ending could go on forever. Of course, I don't know if the conductor would ever get past the Mahler Second. We'd probably all achieve our own resurrections (or whatever after death) waiting for that final movement of Resurrection to ever happen in a Mahler Second performance under Celibidache's baton. In any case, pack a big lunch and plenty of water. And maybe even a change of clothes. It will be a long one.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I reckon he'd have to start Mahler's 3rd in the matinee session to finish by midnight. However, imagine Mr. Cobra playing Mahler 3! He'd have to start it on Monday to finish it by Friday.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Requirement for a Celibidache Mahler concert -- an overnight bag.


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

SONNET CLV said:


> I had a similar thought concerning Mahler. If Celibidache could ever get to the Ninth, that work's ending could go on forever. Of course, I don't know if the conductor would ever get past the Mahler Second. We'd probably all achieve our own resurrections (or whatever after death) waiting for that final movement of Resurrection to ever happen in a Mahler Second performance under Celibidache's baton. In any case, pack a big lunch and plenty of water. And maybe even a change of clothes. It will be a long one.


LOL. Love this.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Celi's Kindertotenlieder (1983) are close to 30 minutes, where Karajan for instance is close to 27.

Any relatively early Celibidache Mahler recording would maybe be on the fast side.

Scherchen in the Philadelphia 5 Adagietto is 15:34, as opposed to Karajan's 11:54 and Mengelberg's 7:10.


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

joen_cph said:


> Celi's Kindertotenlieder (1983) are close to 30 minutes, where Karajan for instance is close to 27.
> 
> Any relatively early Celibidache Mahler recording would maybe be on the fast side.
> 
> Scherchen in the Philadelphia 5 Adagietto is 15:34, as opposed to Karajan's 11:54 and Mengelberg's 7:10.


But Celi never did a Mahler symphony. Perhaps he knew he his Mahler symphony cycle would be longer than Wagner's Ring. Therefore, he never conducted one


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

No, any early Mahler recording by him would not necessarily be that. He would prefer contrasting tempi in stead. The early Bizet symphony is only 26:39, and thus often extremely fast. Celi's DG Bruckner can often be on the fast side too, for example, and his Shostakovich 9 is a mere 24:50 there, whereas a good deal of the EMI Bruckner mostly is slow.


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

joen_cph said:


> No, any early Mahler recording by him would not necessarily be that. He would prefer contrasting tempi in stead. The early Bizet symphony is only 26:39, and thus often extremely fast. Celi's DG Bruckner can often be on the fast side too, for example, and his Shostakovich 9 is a mere 24:50 there, whereas a good deal of the EMI Bruckner mostly is slow.


Ive listened to his Bruckner with DG and its normal slow unlike his EMI Bruckner which is wierdly slow. I know he wasn't that slow when younger, yet he deteriorated as he got old.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Ned Low said:


> ...yet he deteriorated as he got old.


I don't know if he _deteriorated_. I'll rather defend the aged conductor, being of some age myself. Rather than say "he deteriorated", why not simply ascribe the slower tempos to an elderly conductor's penchant for savoring each note, for what may perhaps be one more time. One _last_ time.

I propose this while contemplating English poet Thomas Gray's "Elegy", especially this verse:

For who, to dumb forgetfulness a prey, 
This pleasing anxious being e'er resign'd, 
Left the warm precincts of the cheerful day, 
Nor cast one longing lingering look behind? 

I'll prefer to give Celibidache "one longing lingering look behind", or, in musical terms "one longing lingering listen behind".


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Would Celi have beaten Klemperer's EMI M7 in terms of duration? Given that the Klemperer is some 20 mins longer than the average, could Celi have prolonged by a further 20 mins to make it a 2-hour long symphony? Intriguing. Having said that, Mr. Cobra should be able to beat that easily though.

For sure, speed is not everything. What about that special Celi something? While sometimes there is undoubtedly something special, usually I can't stand the slowness so it's a non-starter for me anyway; but I wonder if the Celi-ness would work in Mahler's generally "busy" symphonies. All hypothetical of course. Never mind, he hasn't left us any Mahler symphony.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Kiki said:


> ...
> 
> For sure, speed is not everything. What about that special Celi something? While sometimes there is undoubtedly something special, usually I can't stand the slowness so it's a non-starter for me anyway; but I wonder if the Celi-ness would work in Mahler's generally "busy" symphonies. All hypothetical of course. Never mind, he hasn't left us any Mahler symphony.


Celibidache seems to savor each note in his interpretations. What's affecting to me is that he gets me to do the same thing as I listen. Perhaps he is most effective in those Bruckner symphonies, where the orchestration tends to be dense (though not in a negative way, of course). Mahler as an orchestrator has a penchant for allowing individual instruments to shine out, to cut through the mix; and his overall writing is seemingly less "dense" than, say, that of Bruckner. So perhaps we would gain little in hearing Celi do Mahler, since Mahler has already done the work of forcing us all to savor the notes.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

SONNET CLV said:


> Celibidache seems to savor each note in his interpretations. What's affecting to me is that he gets me to do the same thing as I listen. Perhaps he is most effective in those Bruckner symphonies, where the orchestration tends to be dense (though not in a negative way, of course). Mahler as an orchestrator has a penchant for allowing individual instruments to shine out, to cut through the mix; and his overall writing is seemingly less "dense" than, say, that of Bruckner. So perhaps we would gain little in hearing Celi do Mahler, since Mahler has already done the work of forcing us all to savor the notes.


Concerning *Mahler,* Barenboim said that Celibidache didn't like Mahler's music a lot, finding it more or less a collage of quotations, whereas Bruckner's was more natural and organic:

"_Celibidache hat mir einmal gesagt: „Bei Mahler sind die Empfindungen unecht, deswegen kommen sie immer nur als Zitat._".
(https://www.rondomagazin.de/artikel.php?artikel_id=1299)

As for *Bruckner*, there's a list of his DG timings here:
https://www.discogs.com/Bruckner-Celibidache-Symphonies-Nos-3-5-7-9/release/10326395

The 4th for example is faster than Karajan's EMI, and some individual movements faster than some other of the later Karajan's.

In the EMI set, Celibidache's 6th is 
17:01, 21:01, 8:18, 15:08,
where Klemperer HMV for example is
17:02, 14:42, 9:23, 13:48
and Karajan DG is
15:14, 18:59, 7:50, 15:13.

BTW, I like Celibidache's DG recordings of *Debussy* (_Nocturnes, La Mer, Prelude ._..) and *Ravel *(generally, including _Daphnis & Chloe_). Also very much *R-K*'s _Sheherazade_ (EMI etc.) and *M/Ravel *_Pictures_ ..., plus the eccentric *Sibelius *_5th Symphony_, where he turns the Finale into an operatic performance with himself as soloist. And his early *Schumann* _2nd Symphony._ And ... others ...


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## Bernamej (Feb 24, 2014)

SONNET CLV said:


> Celibidache seems to savor each note in his interpretations. What's affecting to me is that he gets me to do the same thing as I listen. Perhaps he is most effective in those Bruckner symphonies, where the orchestration tends to be dense (though not in a negative way, of course). Mahler as an orchestrator has a penchant for allowing individual instruments to shine out, to cut through the mix; and his overall writing is seemingly less "dense" than, say, that of Bruckner. So perhaps we would gain little in hearing Celi do Mahler, since Mahler has already done the work of forcing us all to savor the notes.


Thank you for showing me what I don’t like about Mahler. A bit too “pornosonic” sometimes, whereas Bruckner remains more “austere” in the polyphonic spirit of the old religious school.
i insist on the “sometimes” here. I still love Mahler; but he’s no Bruckner, spiritually, and it probably explains Celi’s choice.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I haven't any quotes at hand but I seem to recall some according to which Celibidache didn't just not love Mahler's music, he seemed close to actively disliking it and to my knowledge never conducted any Mahler. With Mahler being standard repertoire since the 1980s, it's easy to forget that quite a few conductors in the mid-20th century mostly ignored or disliked his music (another somewhat well known conductor who did no Mahler was Günter Wand).


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Ned Low said:


> Ive listened to his Bruckner with DG and its normal slow unlike his EMI Bruckner which is wierdly slow. I know he wasn't that slow when younger, yet he deteriorated as he got old.


I couldn't disagree more! To me his EMI Munich Bruckners were mostly made in heaven (as was much of his work at that time). Some of the slightly earlier DG ones are OK but not that special. You are not alone in thinking his late work "weird" but nor am I in thinking them specially insightful. For me, he became a genius in his old age.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Celibidache did not like the music of Mahler at all and said. Mahler was not even a real composer or words to that effect . But there is a recording of him and a. famous mezzo soprano whose name I can't recall offhand. doing. Mahler's "Kindertotenlieder " I believe , and this has been reviewed by David Hurwitz on his website "classicstoday.com " I also don't recall the label that issued this live recording but am very curious to hear it .


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

You are correct. I wasn't aware of that It was with Brigitte Fassbaender (who made many other fantastic Mahler recordings) in Munich; it's on the orchestra's own label. 
ASIN ‏: B075DR227H


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