# Article about Mahler in the Times



## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

I think this article on Mahler is quite good.

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/classical/article6979448.ece

This is an extract from the end, written by someone else:

*Mahler's symphonies: what you need to know*

No 1 Also known as: The Titan
Four years after Brahms's Fourth, the symphony goes feral. Includes a funeral march with added klezmer.

No 2 The Resurrection
Mahler's most obvious response to Beethoven's Ninth, as a ride to the abyss finishes with choral salvation

No 3 The one with a poem by Nietzsche
Mahler's response to, well, everything, including plants, animals, mankind and, ultimately, love itself.

No 4 The shortest one
Mahler scales back and adds sleigh bells. Culminates in a "child's view of heaven", which apparently includes abundant asparagus.

No 5 The one used in Death in Venice
High on the "best of" lists, with the swooingly gorgeous Adagietto.

No 6 The Tragic
Mahler's most tightly constructed symphony, with the rarity of a fatalistic conclusion.

No 7 The unpopular one
The weirdest and shadowiest, with two movements of "night music" Also has a part for a mandolin.

No 8 The Symphony of a Thousand
Intended for a thousand performers, the choral symphony is still a monster and concludes with a huge chunk from Goethe's Faust.

No 9 The farewell to life (possibly)
Either saturated with death or full of affection for a life well lived, depending on your POV.

No 10 The unfinished
Possibly we shouldn't even be performing it. Mahler only orchestrated the adagio, the rest was completed (twice) by the musicologist Deryck Cooke.

_Neil Fisher_


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2010)

On the 10th, I must disagree.

How incomplete would the world of classical music be without so many "uncompleted" masterpieces?

Mozart's Requiem? Schubert's 9th Symphony?

Those are just immediately off the top of my head.

I personally love the Rattle/BPO performance of the "completed" 10th, as well as MTT and Bernstein recording just the Adagio.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

DrMike said:


> I personally love the Rattle/BPO performance of the "completed" 10th.


Yes, that's one of my favourites. I'm sure an expert would know the difference, but it all sounds like Mahler to me.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2010)

Unfortunately the link doesn't seem to work for me. Shame. I would have loved to read it.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

The M7 is claimed to be the "unpopular" one? Hmmm. I don't agree with that at all. Certainly not weird.

The M10 i disagree as well. Granted, one needs to always remember the background and history as well as which editions are out there. If that is a big concern, stick with the completed movement and call it good. But to me Cooke's version is still the best as Wheeler's does not do a thing for me at all.
And yes, the Rattle/BPO is the best as well.

Not a bad article.

Jim


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

handlebar said:


> The M7 is claimed to be the "unpopular" one? Hmmm. I don't agree with that at all. Certainly not weird.


I certainly disagree with the claim that it's "weird" (each symphony is unique, what makes this one different in that regard from the rest?), but one must admit to it's being the least popular. It is making strides, sure, but it's still far below the 2nd or 5th in terms of being popular. Probably because it doesn't have any perceived gimmicks to go with it, except for the fact that it "has mandolins." But then again, so does the 8th...

Whatever. Just listen to the darn symphonies and make your own conclusions.


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## bongos (Nov 27, 2008)

*Mahler 3 ,NZ Symphony orchestra in concert*

I attended this great concert in Auckland last year .A recording of this concert will play online at www.radionz.co.nz/concert at 8pm NZ time January 9

Mahler's Third Symphony
Ekaterina Semenchuck (mezzo) with the New Zealand Opera Chorus and the NZSO

Russian mezzo-soprano Semenchuk began the 2009-10 season in concert with Anna Netrebko and Bryn Terfel at the Hamburg Laieszhalle under the baton of Emmanuel Villaume. Further concert appearances include Prokofiev's Hamlet with the Stavanger Symphony Orchestra conducted by Michail Jurowsky, and Mahler's Second Symphony with the Philharmonia conducted by Eliahu Inbal at London's Southbank Centre.

A member of the Mariinsky Theatre, Semenchuk has taken part in international tours under Valery Gergiev's baton to Covent Garden, La Scala Milan, Teatro Real Madrid, the Metropolitan Opera and Carnegie Hall in New York, Washington Opera and the Salzburg Festival.

Introducing his Third Symphony Mahler said "It has almost ceased to be music: it is hardly anything but the sounds of nature." The second movement is a delightfully-scored character piece. The third movement (based on the Wunderhorn song Relief in Summer) enters the unsophisticated animal world.

In the central section, man intrudes in the form of a magical posthorn solo. Here the animals momentarily cease all activity, spellbound by this far-distant music from a higher realm. If the posthorn solo reveals a naïve and fairy-tale version of man-kind, it ushers in a more profound vision in the fourth movement. (Source: Radio New Zealand Concert-Programme Notes)

This concert was recorded in the Auckland Town Hall by Radio New Zealand


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

World Violist said:


> I certainly disagree with the claim that it's "weird" (each symphony is unique, what makes this one different in that regard from the rest?), but one must admit to it's being the least popular. It is making strides, sure, but it's still far below the 2nd or 5th in terms of being popular. Probably because it doesn't have any perceived gimmicks to go with it, except for the fact that it "has mandolins." But then again, so does the 8th...
> 
> Whatever. Just listen to the darn symphonies and make your own conclusions.


I agree!!

As for least popular symphonies there are far more M7 recordings and performances than the M10. Granted, it is not performed as often as others.
As for the mandolins, I like them. Funny how critics make fun of Mahler's use of the mandolin but adore the arrangements that Vivaldi composed for said instrument. LOL

Oh well. So is life.


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## bongos (Nov 27, 2008)

*and this is Ekaterina*

oh yes she also sings


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

bongos said:


> oh yes she also sings




VERY nice if I may say so.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Cute article.


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## alfine (Dec 10, 2009)

Yes good article. 

I first heard Mahler from the OK Ken Russell film (which not as bad as the Tchaikovski one which he famously said was about "a homosexual who married a nymphomaniac" and contains the disconcerting site of Glenda Jackson MP writhing naked on the floor of a speeding train). I bought the Mahler Symphony no 1 when very young. Always liked it. Barenboim (perhaps?) said something about the importance of putting the first and second violins on different sides of the conductor so that they dialogue with each other across the orchestra - emphasising that throwing of themes from one instrument to another which Iannucci talks about.


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## kmisho (Oct 22, 2009)

Mahler has always been problematic for me. Up to now I have mostly preferred his 6th.

I'm just going to lay out some of the things that have always bothered me for one reason or another. To begin with, two words come to mind: overwrought, unconstrained.

People always talk of the profundity of Mahler, but so far to me he has seemed as if he tried so hard to be profound that he couldn't succeed. I think real profundity has a certain naturalness to it, and I fail to get this from Mahler. There is some historical precedent for what I say. Mahler wrote for his earlier symphonies a sort of program as a some kind of guide for the audience. Once I was viewing a set of abstract works by a contemporary painter at a gallery. The plaque that accompanied each painting, as they do for all listing the artist, year, and medium, included (abnormally and superfluously or overwhelmingly) a long paragraph explaining the artist's inspiration, intent, process. My thought was and still is: With these paragraphs of explanation, why did he bother to paint? He could have left the paintings out altogether and put up nothing but the explanatory plaques. So from an aesthetic perspective, the existence of the programs is for me a bad sign.

Here's a story about overwrought artwork. I used to be in a rock band and we all played and wrote our own songs.The first song our bassist brought in had everybody's part written out in full chamber-music style. Not only this, peppered throughout everyone's part were phrases describing what this this or that theme symbolized, the relationships to each part and section so that we could all understand the attitude we should adopt to perform the piece as intended. Mahler didn't exactly do this, but in my view the poor man had too many resources at hand. I am not opposed to largesse except when it seems to be for its own sake. Maybe Mahler's music actually required the resources he used, but I remain far from convinced.

Then I have problems with Mahler from a purely musical perspective. I was never able to quite understand what bothered me until I happened across the Wikipedia article about Shostakovich's 4th Symphony which contains the following comment under Influence of Mahler: The duration, the size of the orchestra, the style and range of orchestration, and the recurrent use of "banal" melodic material juxtaposed with more high-minded, even "intellectual," material, all come from Mahler. The term "banal" was given in quotes...but that word truck me like a thunderbolt. Mahler's melodies always struck me as banal, throwaway, that the emotional strength he was trying to transmit was not contained in the actual melody itself. Oddly enough, Shostakovich's 4th is one of my favorite symphonies of all. The "banal" melodies seemed to me to befit Shostakovich's more modern style and struck me more as musical ideas, and one of the things I love about the 4th is the impression it gives me of Shostakovich as a volcano erupting with original musical ideas. Maybe Mahler is like this too when placed in his historical context, but it has simply never come across to me that way.

I could go on but these are the main things. Despite all this, the last thing for me to say is that I recently obtained a complete collection of the Michael Tilson Thomas live recordings of Mahler's symphonies and intend to give it the "college try" of listening to the entire cycle to see if my opinions might change.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

kmisho said:


> Mahler has always been problematic for me. Up to now I have mostly preferred his 6th.
> 
> I'm just going to lay out some of the things that have always bothered me for one reason or another. To begin with, two words come to mind: overwrought, unconstrained.
> 
> ...


Mahler didn't write the programs for his audience. Actually, he tried to get rid of them as the work progressed. He used them more as a guide for himself.

As for banality, he was trying to depict a world, warts and all. How can one do that without banality?

Finally, as for the size of the orchestra; he did need the whole orchestra, because he knew exactly what he wanted and exactly how to get it, and he was a notorious perfectionist. Thus he had to use what he needed, because nothing else would be good enough for him.

I hope you eventually like Mahler. Lorin Maazel used not to like his music, but now he's recorded two cycles and really likes it.

Oh, and by the way, the 6th is my favorite too.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

kmisho said:


> Mahler has always been problematic for me. Up to now I have mostly preferred his 6th.
> 
> I'm just going to lay out some of the things that have always bothered me for one reason or another. To begin with, two words come to mind: overwrought, unconstrained.
> 
> ...


Wow.

I enjoy Mahler. I may even go far as to say I like him. But I have to agree with a lot of this.


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

Fsharpmajor said:


> Yes, that's one of my favourites. I'm sure an expert would know the difference, but it all sounds like Mahler to me.


I second that!!!


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

DrMike said:


> Unfortunately the link doesn't seem to work for me. Shame. I would have loved to read it.


This Google search will turn it up:

*timesonline armando iannucci mahler*


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## kmisho (Oct 22, 2009)

World Violist said:


> Mahler didn't write the programs for his audience. Actually, he tried to get rid of them as the work progressed. He used them more as a guide for himself.


My fear, reflected in the story about the artist who accompanied all his paintings with detailed descriptions, was that he might have had difficulty writing if not for the existence of these programs.



> As for banality, he was trying to depict a world, warts and all. How can one do that without banality?


I can see this if was not that all of his melodies have a banality about them.



> Finally, as for the size of the orchestra; he did need the whole orchestra, because he knew exactly what he wanted and exactly how to get it, and he was a notorious perfectionist. Thus he had to use what he needed, because nothing else would be good enough for him.


Appeasing one's perfectionism I don't consider to be an artistic consideration.



> I hope you eventually like Mahler. Lorin Maazel used not to like his music, but now he's recorded two cycles and really likes it.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, the 6th is my favorite too.


I am on the fence about all of these things. This is just how it seemed to me up to now. Like I said, I am going to try him again as part of my own pet project of surveying The Symphony.

I recently listened to nearly all Shotakovich's again, where I oddly found that I liked the 10th less than I used to. Another was Rachmaninov, where I decided that the 1st definitely got a bad rap in early years.

Mahler and Nielsen are coming up soon, both composers I may not have given a fair shake in the past.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Thanks for the response; it clarified some things for me.

Happy listening!


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