# Who are the Most Uneven Composers...?



## Arent (Mar 27, 2017)

Who do you think produced some clunkers along with the good stuff in their catalogue? (Not counting early works which may not be up to the standard of mature compositions.)

I'd pick Tchaikovsky, Mahler, and...dare I say it...Beethoven. It's almost like he is too sacred to admit it, but the big B produced some poorer quality work at times, even into his mature period.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Interesting topic. Could you names some clunkers by each of those, especially with Beethoven


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## Arent (Mar 27, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Interesting topic. Could you names some clunkers by each of those, especially with Beethoven


Hah. Knew I was opening a can of worms there!

Tchaikovsky couldn't write well for piano. His first piano concerto is sui generis, a wonderful work, but the second is a clunker. Not fond of the Trio in A minor either. Manfred Symphony is a yawn. Haven't explored them, but the obscurity of most of his operas indicates some of them are likely uninspired or dramatically lacking.

Mahler's 6th, 7th and 8th symphonies are highly problematic to me, the more so because the 9th, Das Lied von der Erde, and 10th are wonderful.

Beethoven produced a bunch of stentorian but boring works in his middle period, such as several of his overtures. The unevenness comes in comparison with his best middle period works, not to mention the incredible late works. Even there, the late "big/heroic" works such as the _Missa Solemnis_ and the Ninth are inferior to the late quartets and sonatas.

Feel free to disagree, but also list your own uneven composers!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I think Hovhaness is uneven. There is so much he put out there, some is good and some isn't as good. Also Villa-Lobos.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Arent said:


> Even there, the late "big/heroic" works such as the _Missa Solemnis_ and the Ninth are inferior to the late quartets and sonatas.
> 
> Feel free to disagree.


I don't think I'd go that far, but Wellington's Victory is more of a potboiler. Also, his first Mass isn't so much a clunker, but Charles Rosen says of it that he never goes beyond competent.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Liszt's catalog is extremely uneven. Perhaps that's why he's often not considered a great composer. Alongside his profound works such as the Sonata in B Minor, he also wrote a great many showpieces with dubious musical value (such as his Galop Chromatique).


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I couldn't disagree more with the comments about Tchaikovsky and Mahler. Because works are 'problematic' to you doesn't mean that they are 'clunkers' - or anything remotely approaching that. Also while the Tchaikovsky 2nd concerto is not as well known as the 1st, I would rate it higher than the 1st (provided it isn't the chopped up Siloti 'revision').

As to who is uneven, I would say many of the baroque composers, even Vivaldi, who really churned out the material.


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## Arent (Mar 27, 2017)

Arent said:


> Hah. Knew I was opening a can of worms there!
> 
> Tchaikovsky couldn't write well for piano. His first piano concerto is sui generis, a wonderful work, but the second is a clunker. Not fond of the Trio in A minor either. Manfred Symphony is a yawn. Haven't explored them, but the obscurity of most of his operas indicates some of them are likely uninspired or dramatically lacking.


Just responding to my own thoughts on Tchaikovsky...I recall that he himself thought most highly of the A minor trio and the 2nd piano concerto. Perhaps thinking that they were highly "respectable" works compared to some of those which are now his most popular. Well, they are worthy but lacking in inspiration in my view. He's certainly a unique composer and one of my personal favorites, his sense of melody and orchestration is incomparable and his famously heart-on-sleeve abandon is what makes him great, when it's at its most successful. He should not be a guilty pleasure due to his emotionalism but one of the greats, because he moves us!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Arent said:


> Hah. Knew I was opening a can of worms there!
> 
> Tchaikovsky couldn't write well for piano. His first piano concerto is sui generis, a wonderful work, but the second is a clunker. Not fond of the Trio in A minor either. Manfred Symphony is a yawn. Haven't explored them, but the obscurity of most of his operas indicates some of them are likely uninspired or dramatically lacking.
> 
> ...


No problem in opening can of worms, that's my specialty. I agree with you on all the works you mentioned except the Beethoven 9th. I always felt the Missa Solemnis meandered a bit at some parts.

I'll open my own can of worms and say I feel Bach is hit or miss, there are moments I feel close to banal like in some solo instrumental works (I'll probably fry in hell for saying it), or just too long and repetitive (Mass in B Minor). Even in my favourite work of his, the St. Matthew Passion, there are moments I feel are banal.

Another is still Brahms for me. His 1st and 4th symphonies are strong enough, but his 2nd have mostly banal moments for me other than last movement, and with his 3rd other than the 1st movement. His Clarinet Quintet is a masterpiece as with a lot of his chamber works. His German Requiem and violin concerto have a lot of banal moments, just a lot of grandstanding to me. His 2nd piano concerto have a lot of great moments, well worth the time sitting through the weaker moments.

Chopin composed some great works, the 2nd piano sonata, some tidbits interpersed in his etudes, preludes, but again most are just finger exercises and grandstanding in the word "melancholy".

Before you bring me to the gallows, I will say this is only my opinion, and only because I was prodded to say how I feel, which may not be correct.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I would also add Shostakovich to the list. Some of his works are very memorable, but a lot of it are transitions from one great work to another, which he should have kept unpublished. Off hand i can think of Symphony 2, 6, 9, a lot of quartets. I found his 24 preludes and fugues overall pretty underwelming.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

It all comes down to personal taste, but for me Mahler is one of the most even composers, ranging from some of the best works of all time to works I still would not want to be without (like his 8th symphony, the work I like least in his output).


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> I would also add Shostakovich to the list. Some of his works are very memorable, but a lot of it are transitions from one great work to another, which he should have kept unpublished. Off hand i can think of Symphony 2, 6, 9, a lot of quartets. I found his 24 preludes and fugues overall pretty underwelming.


Sorry to hear that. His Op. 87 is my favorite body of Shostakovich music and likely my preferred 20th century piano music.
If you haven't heard Nikolayeva, check her out; she owns Op. 87.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Rachmaninov he's symphonies and The Bells are wonderful but his piano concertos are really boring his operas are also not so good.

Respighi lots of good music but I heard a piano concerto by him once that was the most boring piano concerto I have heard. The pianist went on alone what seemed like forever.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Stravinsky. Some of his work is great ("Firebird", "Rite Of Spring", "Suite No 1 for Small Orchestra", "8 Instrumental Miniatures", "Symphony In C", "Symphony Of Psalms", OK, I'll stop there, but I could go on and on) and some of it is difficult to listen to ("Agon" and pretty much all the rest of his work in a similar style). 

However, when we say a composer is "uneven", I suspect what we really mean is that the composer wrote works in a wide range of very diverse styles and some of those are not to our taste. In fact, now I think about it, maybe I should applaud Stravinsky and the other composers mentioned in this thread as they were daring enough not to stick to a single, easily identifiable style. All a matter of taste at the end of the day really, I'm sure there are people on here who love "Agon".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm positively stunned to discover that so many fine works by so many fine composers are clunkers. It's almost enough to make me think I have no taste whatever.

You want a clunker? Here's one that Mahlerian introduced us to a good while back. It clunks along for a quarter of an hour, so you may want to pay some bills while you listen.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Name me a composer who NEVER had a clunker!

Think of how many compositions Brahms burned or ripped up!

Even the venerable J.S. couldn't have been completely satisfied all the time.

The main thing, after a failure, he would say, "I WILL be Bach!!!" "Where there's a quill, there's a way!!"


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Wagner said of his _Philadelphia Centennial March_, "The best thing about it is the money I got for it." Perhaps, though, we should distinguish potboilers from clunkers.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I'm positively stunned to discover that so many fine works by so many fine composers are clunkers. It's almost enough to make me think I have no taste whatever.
> 
> You want a clunker? Here's one that Mahlerian introduced us to a good while back. It clunks along for a quarter of an hour, so you may want to pay some bills while you listen.


Britten's "Sinfonia da Requiem" was rejected in favour of this? The mind boggles.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Partch was patchy in parts


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## quietfire (Mar 13, 2017)

hpowders said:


> Name me a composer who NEVER had a clunker!
> 
> Think of how many compositions Brahms burned or ripped up!
> 
> ...


Except he was German, and I will be Bach just doesn't make sense.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

quietfire said:


> Except he was German, and I will be Bach just doesn't make sense.


Made perfect sense to me!


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

I am a very even composer - Everything I write is garbage.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Who are the most uneven composers?

Why, the odd ones, of course!

Silly question.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Portamento said:


> I am a very even composer - Everything I write is garbage.


You too hey, we must start our own school of classical music- we could call it the Recyclers


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> You too hey, we must start our own school of classical music- we could call it the Recyclers


Genius!

We should start with composing for string quartet. Close your eyes and hope for the best.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Portamento said:


> Genius!
> 
> We should start with composing for string quartet. Close your eyes and hope for the best.


But that' s what I always do........................ Gosh, I was a Garbage Recycler and I didn't even know it!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Here is a truly "wonderful" piece by Shostakovich. He put Richard Addinsell and Rachmaninoff in a blender, added more than a dash of "cling cling cling" piano a la Ferrante and Teicher (or Grieg), and came up with this gem:






A classic of its kind.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Gustav Holst - he wrote some great work (of which some remains fairly unappreciated) but his output as a whole contains more than its fair share of mediocrity.


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