# The REAL fach of various singers



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

below is a list of somewhat controversial singers. tell me what kind of repertoire best fits their voice (even if you enjoy then in other work too). 

1. Shirley Verrett
2. Maria Callas
3. Grace Bumbry
4. Joyce Didonato
5. Jessye Norman
6. Anna Netrebko
7. Cecilia Bartoli 
8. Christa Ludwig 
9. Marilyn Horne


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

imo:
1. Shirley Verrett: sings both soprano and mezzo equally well
2. Maria Callas: dramatic soprano
3. Grace Bumbry: lyric mezzo
4. Joyce Didonato: lyric soprano
5. Jessye Norman: dramatic mezzo
6. Anna Netrebko: lyric coloratura trying to sound dark.
7. Cecilia Bartoli: coloratura mezzo 
8. Christa Ludwig: dramatic soprano
9. Marilyn Horne: spinto soprano who crushed her voice to sing mezzo


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

No argument with your list apart from Christa Ludwig. I would have said dramatic mezzo with some ability to go to the high notes when required.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> imo:
> 1. Shirley Verrett: sings both soprano and mezzo equally well
> 2. Maria Callas: dramatic soprano
> 3. Grace Bumbry: lyric mezzo
> ...


Small quibbles and comments:
Verrett was a wonderful soprano who lost all the distinctiveness in her voice singing those roles. She was one of my favorite mezzos of all time and had a very distinctive timbre to her voice in those roles.

Early Callas hard to nail down: one of the great coloratura interpreters of all time but also very good at Wagner, although the sound of her voice might have been unconventional in a German Ring. It was supposedly an enormous voice.
Bumbry was a great Salome, but she was a spectacular Amneris!

Didonato would be marvelous to hear live, but on disc she sounds generic although she sings with great skill and beauty. She sounds most definitely like a lyric soprano to me.

Netrebko.... I would like to hear her live to make a judgement. She doesn't bowl me over although she was more impressive when she looked more like a fashion model many pounds ago. She gave good video.

Ludwig:I like her Leonora in Fidelio a lot ... maybe my favorite Leonora of all....but on the whole I think she shone more in mezzo roles. Such a warm lush sound. A noted specialist examined the vocal cords of Ludwig and Nilsson and Ludwig's were very different from Nilsson's. They were big fans of each other.

Horne: I think she was still transitioning in the early part of her mezzo career and had more of a soprano sound definitely, but by the time she took on the big Verdi mezzo roles she was no longer a soprano. She said when she sang soprano full time she had all the notes but the top thinned out. I think she was most spectacular in roles like Arsace.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Small quibbles and comments:
> Verrett was a wonderful soprano who lost all the distinctiveness in her voice singing those roles. She was one of my favorite mezzos of all time and had a very distinctive timbre to her voice in those roles.


I think she sounds plenty distinctive, but that's just my tastes.



> Early Callas hard to nail down: one of the great coloratura interpreters of all time but also very good at Wagner, although the sound of her voice might have been unconventional in a German Ring. It was supposedly an enormous voice.


indeed. very broad in scope, but imo, dramatic soprano (albeit more Verdian than Wagnerian) was the home of her voice.



> Bumbry was a great Salome, but she was a spectacular Amneris!


I think she is best as Amneris and Carmen



> Didonato would be marvelous to hear live, but on disc she sounds generic although she sings with great skill and beauty. She sounds most definitely like a lyric soprano to me.


my favorite piece she sings is in Maria Stuarda. not as the title role, but as Elisabetta. her voice actually sounds exciting and INTENSE here. she is a good actress, but her voice lacks climax in the mezzo range. it's probably more "comfortable" there, but it doesn't bring out the voice's full potential or excitement







> Netrebko.... I would like to hear her live to make a judgement. She doesn't bowl me over although she was more impressive when she looked more like a fashion model many pounds ago. She gave good video.


the fake darkness, extreme ingolata and wobble leave me confident making this call



> Ludwig:I like her Leonora in Fidelio a lot ... maybe my favorite Leonora of all....but on the whole I think she shone more in mezzo roles. Such a warm lush sound. A noted specialist examined the vocal cords of Ludwig and Nilsson and Ludwig's were very different from Nilsson's. They were big fans of each other.


she's the one on this list I'm the least sure about. you're probably right



> Horne: I think she was still transitioning in the early part of her mezzo career and had more of a soprano sound definitely, but by the time she took on the big Verdi mezzo roles she was no longer a soprano. She said when she sang soprano full time she had all the notes but the top thinned out. I think she was most spectacular in roles like Arsace.


I think most of this was a switch from good to bad technique.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Callas doesn't really belong in any category, and indeed has her own category in Lanfranco Rasponi's book _The Last Prima Donnas_. If anything, she was a _soprano dramatico d'agilita_, that is a large, dramatic voice capable of singing extremely intricate coloratura. In *Un Ballo in Maschera* there are pages where Oscar and Amelia must mirror each other's vocal line. If you listen to either Callas's studio or live recordings, made in 1956 and 1957 respectively, it is to find that Callas's trills and coloratura are much more accurare than those of the light voiced soubrette of Eugenia Ratti. We don't usually hear them because most Amelias don't have the ability to sing them, but they are there in the score. This is one of the reasons she doesn't fit into any normal category or fach.

That said, that ability might have been unique in her time, but it certainly wouldn't have been 100 years earlier, when _all_ sopanos, nay, all singers, were expected to have a full command of trills, scales and grupetti.

I think Verrett lost some of her individuality when she switched from mezzo to soprano, so I always think of her as a mezzo. Her best roles were Carmen, Dalila, Eboli , Amneris, and Lady Macbeth, a soprano role that is often sung by mezzos.

I've heard DiDonato live (as a stunning Dejanira in Handel's *Hercules*) and have just been listening to her _Stela di Napoli_ CD. She still sounds like a mezzo to me.

Ludwig, even as Leonore, still sounds like a mezzo to me. Many years ago I remember reading an interview with her, in which she discussed how she had thought of switching to dramatic soprano roles and tried a few on for size, before deciding that they put too great a strain on her voice. Sensible lady.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

1. Shirley Verrett
Dramatic mezzo, perfect for Verdi and serious bel canto mezzo roles and I can imagine her in Wagner too (Venus, Ortrud, possibly Fricka). I wonder what she would have made of Rossini's lyric mezzo/contralto rep, I can imagine her as a fiery Isabella or Fiorilla. In my opinion whilst somebody is best to stick to their fach most of the time, they should be able to move into the rep of neighbouring fachs from time to time. Therefore I see the occasional dramatic contralto or dramatic soprano role such as Ulrica and Lady Macbeth make perfect sense, however these should have been occasional excursions and I don't know much of her singing as a soprano, but I'm not surprised that others haven't been impressed by it.

2. Maria Callas
Dramatic mezzo I think much of the repertoire that Christa Ludwig and Shirley Verrett sang would have been ideal for Callas (we have her excellent O don fatale despite it being recorded too late and she and Ludwig both made excellent Lady Macbeths and Kundrys). One forgets that Norma, La Sonnambula and Anna Bolena were written for a 'soprano' with such a wide range that she defied categorisation and Stendhal advised that composers were best writing for her as a mezzo - Giuditta Pasta. One of the other great Callas bel canto recreations, Armida was actually written for a 'contralto'. However, Callas defies categorisation like Pasta and whilst there are some lacunae in her discography (Studio: Traviata under Serafin and Macbeth with Gobbi - Live: Elisabetta in Don Carlo and the 1958 Pirata with Corelli and Bastianini) there is little I would change in terms of what we have as she almost always produced something interesting in her singing of a role.

3. Grace Bumbry
Dramatic mezzo suited to the Verrett repertoire, although I'm not incredibly familiar with her singing.

4. Joyce Didonato
Lyric mezzo - Mozart, Handel and bel canto mezzo roles, whilst we are used to hearing sopranos in the roles Rossini wrote for Colbran (who was called a contralto), they can be sung by lyric mezzos and DiDonato suits that repertoire too.

5. Jessye Norman
Dramatic mezzo - Wagner and pretty much what Ludwig sang, it would have been interesting to hear her in some Verdi mezzo roles too, although I don't know that she would have had the musicality and technique to pull it off (which have nothing to do with fach of course).

6. Anna Netrebko
Spinto soprano and I think she was totally out of place in lyric bel canto rep, instead I would have gone with Tatyana, Lisa in Queen of Spades, Marie in Mazeppa, Iolanta and other Russian rep, then Wagner and other German rep. However voices change and now that she is ready for heavier Verdi roles she is coming into her own.

7. Cecilia Bartoli
Lyric mezzo (see DiDonato above, DiDonato has better technique and is superior to Bartoli when it comes to interpretation and style, though). Interestingly Bartoli has also delved into those bel canto soprano/mezzo roles already discussed, even if with mixed results. You can argue that Norma can be sung by a mezzo as well as by a soprano, however it needs a voice with a certain weight that Bartoli doesn't have.

8. Christa Ludwig
Dramatic mezzo, everything she sang was perfectly suited to her more or less, I wish she had sung more Verdi.

9. Marilyn Horne
Lyric contralto I haven't heard her soprano work so can't comment on that, but her voice seemed so rich and dark she's a contralto to my ear. 

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> 2. Maria Callas
> Dramatic mezzo I think much of the repertoire that Christa Ludwig and Shirley Verrett sang would have been ideal for Callas (we have her excellent O don fatale despite it being recorded too late and she and Ludwig both made excellent Lady Macbeths and Kundrys).
> 
> N.


I've never really subscribed to this theory of Callas really being a mezzo. I adore her singing of Dalila's arias and think she is possibly the most alluring Dalila on disc, but she doesn't sound completely comfortable with the tessitura, and Walter Legge said she had difficulty sustaining it. Indeed, as you probably know, she never approved _Mon coeur s'ouvre a ta voix_ for release. It is a wonderful performance, and, unlike most singers, she does not break the line in the long scalic phrase by adding another, unwritten _réponds_, but it does sound low for her, whereas mezzos like Verrett and Ludwig sound perfectly comfortable down there.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

What's the rationale for calling Callas a mezzo? Plenty of sopranos have had strong chest voice, so that can't be it. How many mezzos have ever been comfortable singing coloratura up to Eb? 

I agree in not assigning her a fach at all. What would she have been called before the concept of fach was invented? A singer, maybe?


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Early Callas was the quintessential Drammatico d'agilita (many argue the term was coined for her.) The voice was colossal from below middle C to high E with insane agility, in some roles unmatched even by Joan Sutherland. That was the real voice. Later Callas' appoggio weakened considerably which caused the wobble and the decline of the upper register. That, along with her artistic choices, made it harder to classify her, I guess, but the early voice tells the truth.

Netrebko is a soubrette who didn't age well, at least vocally.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I've never really subscribed to this theory of Callas really being a mezzo. I adore her singing of Dalila's arias and think she is possibly the most alluring Dalila on disc, but she doesn't sound completely comfortable with the tessitura, and Walter Legge said she had difficulty sustaining it. Indeed, as you probably know, she never approved _Mon coeur s'ouvre a ta voix_ for release. It is a wonderful performance, and, unlike most singers, she does not break the line in the long scalic phrase by adding another, unwritten _réponds_, but it does sound low for her, whereas mezzos like Verrett and Ludwig sound perfectly comfortable down there.


Firstly I consider Dalila more a contralto role and Callas most certainly wasn't a contralto and Verrett had a darker sound than Callas. I should listen to that Dalila aria again. Callas was superb in some mezzo parts (Carmen being the prime example).

When it comes to fach I don't subscribe to the German system of describing singers by the skills they have. Whilst I realise that such a system can be a useful shorthand for casting managers I am interested in fach as an extension of voice type. A tenor cannot learn to become a bass and a tenor who is suited to Mozart and bel canto tenor roles isn't right for Verdi and Wagner bass parts (and forcing the voice down there could cause damage to it long term). However, if a soprano has issues with coloratura or diction, these are things that can be improved by study and the lack of them isn't likely to damage the voice (If Netrebko can't produce a convincing trill or enunciation of Wagner's text then it's a shortcoming, but I wouldn't have thought it would harm her voice).

Therefore I go on two things - weight and colour of the voice. Callas' natural voice was too dark for me to be a soprano (I would say the same of Ponselle too). Dramatic sopranos for me are the likes of Anita Cerquetti, Gina Cigna and Birgit Nillson.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> What's the rationale for calling Callas a mezzo? Plenty of sopranos have had strong chest voice, so that can't be it. How many mezzos have ever been comfortable singing coloratura up to Eb?
> 
> I agree in not assigning her a fach at all. What would she have been called before the concept of fach was invented? A singer, maybe?


When they find her Boris Godunov I'll agree! (Although she does sing some parts of Rigoletto's aria on the recording of the Masterclasses at Juliard.) For me it's neither range (I sing up to the F an octave below that Eb and I'm a dramatic baritone!) or whether one has learned to use the 'chest voice' that marks out whether a singer is soprano, mezzo, tenor or bass etc. It's colour. All singers should have a good range and all singers should learn how to co-ordinate the vocal muscles so they produce full and resonant low notes.

It's rather like hair colour; a blonde is a blonde, a brunette a brunette. Now you can wear your hair long or short and in all sorts of styles, you can even fake the colour, but it's natural colour is just that. The colour can also change with age.

N.


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## IgorS (Jan 7, 2018)

4. Joyce Didonato
6. Anna Netrebko
7. Cecilia Bartoli 
9. Marilyn Horne

All are soubrette sopranos with wrong voice development and huge technique problems.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> What's the rationale for calling Callas a mezzo?


Never mind that - more generally, what's the rationale for pigeonholing singers into an artificial classification system? I understand why the Fach system is employed in European houses - it works to the benefit of both the opera house and the singer. But what's the point here? A singer is either effective in a particular role or repertoire, or they're not - and it doesn't matter in what pigeonhole you place them.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> Never mind that - more generally, what's the rationale for pigeonholing singers into an artificial classification system? I understand why the Fach system is employed in European houses - it works to the benefit of both the opera house and the singer. But what's the point here? A singer is either effective in a particular role or repertoire, or they're not - and it doesn't matter in what pigeonhole you place them.


Let me come round to your house and give you a rendition of my Musetta!

This topic has come up a number of times, so I will try and keep it brief. Whilst I agree with your point to a certain extent, the purpose of voice categories matched to repertoire is useful for singers who are training to understand roles that are safe for them vocally and to avoid singing too much repertoire that could damage the voice. It's also a useful short hand if it's the reason a singer isn't suited to a role because their voice is the wrong colour for it (e.g. Domingo isn't right for Boccanegra because he is a tenor rather than a baritone).

I find the Fach system artificial, however that doesn't mean that voices don't naturally fall into groups (most people would accept at the very least there are sopranos, altos, tenors and basses), some would divide further. Colour of the voice (which is related to range) and vocal weight are natural components of a voice that come out during training and may be developed but can't be completely changed with training. (A contralto can't learn to become a soprano, nor can someone with a weighty voice learn to slim it down - although one can change the natural colour of the voice intentionally for dramamtic effect, it can be dangerous to sing like that all the time and wears the voice.)

Where I am in 100% agreement with you is that it makes little sense to categorise singers according to skills that can be learned. Diction, flexibility etc. (nobody has worn their voice out by not trilling!) although such categories help opera houses and singers as you note.

N.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

IgorS said:


> 4. Joyce Didonato
> 6. Anna Netrebko
> 7. Cecilia Bartoli
> 9. Marilyn Horne
> ...


with the exception of Horne, I agree. she was more dramatic soprano (listen to her Brunhilde. WOW!)


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

The Conte said:


> Whilst I agree with your point to a certain extent, the purpose of voice categories matched to repertoire is useful for singers who are training to understand roles that are safe for them vocally and to avoid singing too much repertoire that could damage the voice.


Right - that's the major purpose of the Fach system. But that purpose doesn't apply here on TC - we're not casting productions.



> It's also a useful short hand if it's the reason a singer isn't suited to a role because their voice is the wrong colour for it (e.g. Domingo isn't right for Boccanegra because he is a tenor rather than a baritone).


More often, I just think that it's just a crutch for people to use instead of carefully describing why a particular singer isn't suited to a particular role.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> Never mind that - more generally, what's the rationale for pigeonholing singers into an artificial classification system? I understand why the Fach system is employed in European houses - it works to the benefit of both the opera house and the singer. But what's the point here? A singer is either effective in a particular role or repertoire, or they're not - and it doesn't matter in what pigeonhole you place them.


We're in complete agreement on this fach fetish. The fach system is a convenience for opera houses, but no more than a guideline for a singer. With respect to any individual voice, it fails as either a description or a prescription. Just look at the plight of poor Marilyn Horne here, yanked back and forth between soubrette soprano and contralto, and accused of having poor technique besides. It's ridiculous. I suspect Horne knew better than we do in what music she was most comfortable.

If we're going to categorize singers beyond the basic classifications of soprano, mezzo-soprano, contralto, tenor, baritone and bass, it should be on the basis of what music they excel in. If they can do a wide enough variety of music well, there may be no point in categorizing them at all.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Anna Netrebko: lyric coloratura trying to sound dark.


Wouldn't the ability to do coloratura come in helpful here?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> Right - that's the major purpose of the Fach system. But that purpose doesn't apply here on TC - we're not casting productions.


Or singing teachers, perhaps...

I see your point. Balalaika boy usually starts these threads and I enjoy responding to them. So I guess it is because a few of us like discussing these things and if you enjoy something isn't that reason enough to do it?

N.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I agree in not assigning her a fach at all. What would she have been called before the concept of fach was invented? A singer, maybe?


A Falcon - "Two types of soprano especially dear to the French are the Dugazon and the Falcon, which are intermediate voice types between the soprano and the mezzo-soprano. A Dugazon is a darker-colored soubrette. A Falcon a darker-colored soprano drammatico."


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

amfortas said:


> Wouldn't the ability to do coloratura come in helpful here?


her coloratura is awful, but this is a skill. I'm talking about her natural vocal instrument (I can use "leggiero" if that helps avoid confusion).


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## IgorS (Jan 7, 2018)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> with the exception of Horne, I agree. she was more dramatic soprano (listen to her Brunhilde. WOW!)


I just can't stand this masky sound.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

IgorS said:


> I just can't stand this masky sound.


it wasn't like that when she was younger. once she started singing mezzo though, the voice dried up and flattened like a pancake


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

The Conte said:


> Balalaika boy usually starts these threads and I enjoy responding to them. So I guess it is because a few of us like discussing these things and if you enjoy something isn't that reason enough to do it?


As long as no one believes a word of any of it.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> If we're going to categorize singers beyond the basic classifications of soprano, mezzo-soprano, contralto, tenor, baritone and bass, it should be on the basis of what music they excel in. If they can do a wide enough variety of music well, there may be no point in categorizing them at all.


I mostly agree with this. I'm as mystified as you are by some of the claims that some singers who have had/are having successful careers are singing completely the wrong repertoire with a poor technique. If Horne were a soubrette soprano (whatever one of those is) why did she sing contralto and mezzo repertoire so well? And why wasn't her voice shot to pieces after years in entirely the wrong rep?

If a system of voice categorisation works then the music that the category dictates for a particular singer should match the music that that singer excels in. You and I are looking down different ends of the same tube here. I am very rarely surprised at the rep that most singers excel in as it matches what I would have expected once I have heard them sing a few times. The proof of the pudding...

N.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> her coloratura is awful, but this is a skill. I'm talking about her natural vocal instrument (I can use "leggiero" if that helps avoid confusion).


I have to think that coloratura, like just about any other skill, is acquired through training but also dependent on the person's natural gifts (or lack thereof).

Netrebko may have had the particular voice type for coloratura roles, but if the natural capability was never there, training would have taken her only so far.

Maybe, in the end, we're both saying essentially the same thing: she's just not that good, in any fach.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

amfortas said:


> I have to think that coloratura, like just about any other skill, is acquired through training but also dependent on the person's natural gifts (or lack thereof).
> 
> Netrebko may have had the particular voice type for coloratura roles, but if the natural capability was never there, training would have taken her only so far.
> 
> Maybe, in the end, we're both saying essentially the same thing: she's just not that good, in any fach.


Each to their own, she was a superlative Tatiana.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Each to their own, she was a superlative Tatiana.
> 
> N.


She was fine in lyric repertoire, especially Russian.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

The Conte said:


> Each to their own, she was a superlative Tatiana.
> 
> N.


People love criticizing her using the evidence of her voice at 47, and comparing her to their favorite singers when in their primes. The online criticism of her is pretty odd and disproportionate. I own just a few of her recordings but whenever I've chanced on a performance, I've always found them musical and well performed.

I saw a youtube video about how she's artificially and consciously darkening her voice--I suppose that's what balalaika boy is responding to. I wonder whether that youtuber is aware that many singers' voices darken and deepen as people age. That youtuber seems to be holding themselves out as an expert but it's hard to believe when they're not aware that age and menopause can have those results.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> People love criticizing her using the evidence of her voice at 47, and comparing her to their favorite singers when in their primes. The online criticism of her is pretty odd and disproportionate. I own just a few of her recordings but whenever I've chanced on a performance, I've always found them musical and well performed.
> 
> I saw a youtube video about how she's artificially and consciously darkening her voice--I suppose that's what balalaika boy is responding to. I wonder whether that youtuber is aware that many singers' voices darken and deepen as people age. That youtuber seems to be holding themselves out as an expert but it's hard to believe when they're not aware that age and menopause can have those results.


This is one of the fallacies of the fach system (looking at the fachs one would go from one to another through the years). If one follows a system of wider voice types then one can also see that a singer is likely to progress from a number of roles to further ones. Or to put it another way the German fach system is too restrictive and each fach only covers a few roles that might be fine as repertoire for a period in a singer's life, but it would be natural for a singer to move onto another fach.

The way that a voice changes is normally quite predictable and you would expect a singer to move onto heavier roles with time. Although, of course, it's not wise to plan out a whole career and set it in stone.

N.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Re Netrebko:



howlingfantods said:


> People love criticizing her using the evidence of her voice at 47, and comparing her to their favorite singers when in their primes. The online criticism of her is pretty odd and disproportionate.


So is much of the online praise, which borders on worship.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I suspect that had Her Nebs been less glamorous, there would be less exaggeration of both her virtues and her faults.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I suspect that had Her Nebs been less glamorous, there would be less exaggeration of both her virtues and her faults.


It's not so much the glamor as her playing to the glamor. I see some of that, albeit to much a different degree with Renee Fleming.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Incidentally, regarding voice 'fachs' and the change in voice with aging, would anyone care to comment on Barbara Hannigan? I ask this partly because I heard quite a bit of her with this last weekend's Ojai Festival (see my thread with links to performances) where I don't detect much in the way of increasing darkness/heaviness despite her being approx. the same age as Netrebko.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I mostly agree with this. I'm as mystified as you are by some of the claims that some singers who have had/are having successful careers are singing completely the wrong repertoire with a poor technique. *If Horne were a soubrette soprano (whatever one of those is) why did she sing contralto and mezzo repertoire so well?* And why wasn't her voice shot to pieces after years in entirely the wrong rep?
> 
> If a system of voice categorisation works then the music that the category dictates for a particular singer should match the music that that singer excels in. You and I are looking down different ends of the same tube here. I am very rarely surprised at the rep that most singers excel in as it matches what I would have expected once I have heard them sing a few times. The proof of the pudding...
> 
> N.


easy answer: she didn't.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I suspect that had Her Nebs been less glamorous, there would be less exaggeration of both her virtues and her faults.


her glamorousness was what created so many of her faults. she got cocky and sang rep that was awful for her voice.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't understand the criticism of Horne's technique. To me, her coloratura was unparalleled. When singing very fast runs with her voice, every note was completely separate and distinct, which is very hard to do. There was a powerful rhythmic punch to her vocal cascades up and down. It think she did that better than anyone. I liked her voice best in Bel Canto and her employment of the chest register was really outstanding. In addition, she sang coloratura like Sutherland and Callas did with a really really big voice. In her day she had a tremendous reputation as a singing wonder. The last thing I'll say is she had a very distinctive sound which is essential for me to be considered a great singer. She did sound more like a soprano at the beginning of her mezzo career, but the voice became darker and the top notes less secure as she progressed in her career.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't understand the criticism of Horne's technique. To me, her coloratura was unparalleled. When singing very fast runs with her voice, every note was completely separate and distinct, which is very hard to do. There was a powerful rhythmic punch to her vocal cascades up and down. It think she did that better than anyone. I liked her voice best in Bel Canto and her employment of the chest register was really outstanding. In addition, she sang coloratura like Sutherland and Callas did with a really really big voice. In her day she had a tremendous reputation as a singing wonder. The last thing I'll say is she had a very distinctive sound which is essential for me to be considered a great singer. She did sound more like a soprano at the beginning of her mezzo career, but the voice became darker and the top notes less secure as she progressed in her career.


- nasal, excessive mask singing
- the top notes had no spin 
- the voice had no squillo because she didn't sing with an open throat 
- the coloratura was aspirated, unlike the coloratura of Sills, Anderson or, especially, Sutherland.

the overall effect was somewhat crushed and dried out, especially in comparison to her early years as a soprano when the voice was opulent and, at times, downright glorious.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> - nasal, excessive mask singing
> - the top notes had no spin
> - the voice had no squillo because she didn't sing with an open throat
> - the coloratura was aspirated, unlike the coloratura of Sills, Anderson or, especially, Sutherland.
> ...


Can you provide any examples of this early 'soprano' career?

N.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

The Conte said:


> Each to their own, she was a superlative Tatiana.


Not a lyric coloratura role, which gets back to my original point.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Becca said:


> Incidentally, regarding voice 'fachs' and the change in voice with aging, would anyone care to comment on Barbara Hannigan? I ask this partly because I heard quite a bit of her with this last weekend's Ojai Festival (see my thread with links to performances) where I don't detect much in the way of increasing darkness/heaviness despite her being approx. the same age as Netrebko.


I can't tell you about Hannigan, but I think that the concept of voices "growing" is usually BS. Very, very few voices change significantly with age, unless we're talking about the difference between a teenager and a mature adult. Singers may change their technique to move into different repertoire (and usually lose tonal quality when they do so), or make a decision in mid-career that it makes sense to take the risk of moving into a more prestigious (i.e. dramatic) repertoire for reasons of fame and fortune. Or they just keep singing the way that they always have, and sing different roles, and pay no attention to those who dismiss them as "not a [whatever]".


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Can you provide any examples of this early 'soprano' career?
> 
> N.


This doesn't sound like a soprano to me. She sounds really strained. Recording made in 1959.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> - nasal, excessive mask singing
> - the top notes had no spin
> - the voice had no squillo because she didn't sing with an open throat
> - the coloratura was aspirated, unlike the coloratura of Sills, Anderson or, especially, Sutherland.
> ...


My sister was an opera singer and a voice teacher for 40 years. I have only one opera friend so I sometimes play a singer I like for her and she almost never ever likes them because she disapproves of their technique. I don't know voice technique, I just know what I like. We all listen with our ears. Yours are obviously much more discerning than mine. Thanks for clearly laying out your issues with Horne. I still love her though;-) I am not alone. I learn a lot from you in your posts, friend.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Becca said:


> Incidentally, regarding voice 'fachs' and the change in voice with aging, would anyone care to comment on Barbara Hannigan? I ask this partly because I heard quite a bit of her with this last weekend's Ojai Festival (see my thread with links to performances) where I don't detect much in the way of increasing darkness/heaviness despite her being approx. the same age as Netrebko.


People age differently due to genetics, just as some people age more than others visibly, so it's the same with the voice. That's not to say that some singers don't 'put on' a darker sound. It seems to me that Netrebko's voice has darkened naturally somewhat with age. Whether she also aids that process with some manufactured darkness in the mix, I'm not really sure.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> This doesn't sound like a soprano to me. She sounds really strained. Recording made in 1959.


Goodness! That's not someone singing with their natural voice (you can tell because there are no vowels!)

N.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

amfortas said:


> I have to think that coloratura, like just about any other skill, is acquired through training but also dependent on the person's natural gifts (or lack thereof).
> 
> Netrebko may have had the particular voice type for coloratura roles, but if the natural capability was never there, training would have taken her only so far.


Coloratura soprano is a type of voice with a very high tessitura and very easy notes above high C, ideally to F6 and beyond. Not to be confused with the ability to sing fioriture which even a contralto can acquire if she has natural talent and a great training.

Netrebko may have been a coloratura when she was very young (she claims to have sung queen of the night.) When it comes to agility, she had more when she was younger but she has close to none now and attempting any sort of florid singing results in smeary and clumsy "coloratura".


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> People love criticizing her using the evidence of her voice at 47, and comparing her to their favorite singers when in their primes. The online criticism of her is pretty odd and disproportionate. I own just a few of her recordings but whenever I've chanced on a performance, I've always found them musical and well performed.
> 
> I saw a youtube video about how she's artificially and consciously darkening her voice--I suppose that's what balalaika boy is responding to. I wonder whether that youtuber is aware that many singers' voices darken and deepen as people age. That youtuber seems to be holding themselves out as an expert but it's hard to believe when they're not aware that age and menopause can have those results.


You don't really need to compare her to anyone to understand her faults. Even in her prime, as early as the late 90s and early 2000s, her breathing was louder than her voice (she's naturally the breathiest, but the mic she's wearing contributes to it, I guess.) She's always sounded like she has something stuffed in her mouth and that's the result of artificial darkening. The voice of course deepened with age, so she took the woofiness to the next level trying to fit into dramatic roles but the result was just plain awful singing. She's not a dramatic voice, not even a big lyric (Claudia Muzio is a big lyric.) If you listen to her in Ruslan and Lyudmila in 1995, the voice was still more natural and not too artificial. it was a sweet young girly voice of a soprano leggiero/soubrette. That's the real voice. She's not going to transform into Renata Tebaldi just because she aged a little and gained some weight. That wouldn't substitute her vocal chords with drastically thicker ones nor enlarge her resonators. Voices are born Dramatic. Hers is only a throaty voice with a microphone.

This is her real voice. Definitely lighter, brighter and more decent and pleasant:






This is what a voice naturally darkened and deepened with age and menopause sounds like:






This is not:






Even her facial expressions reflect the vulgarity of the singing.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I suspect that had Her Nebs been less glamorous, there would be less exaggeration of both her virtues and her faults.


Indeed. If she was a more obscure singer or a student nobody would really bother to criticize her. But when she's the number 1 singer in the entire world, doing all the work in major and minor houses (now alongside her husband who is just as bad) somebody has to speak up about it. Some moments in her singing are embarrassing by any standard even for a student and don't live up to the standards of professional, let alone first-class singing.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I've changed my mind. I don't think Verrett was a mezzo, but I would place her as a contralto. That doesn't make much difference in terms of what she sang well, but makes even more sense when considering how fine an Ulrica she made and why her soprano forays weren't always successful.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I've changed my mind. I don't think Verrett was a mezzo, but I would place her as a contralto. That doesn't make much difference in terms of what she sang well, but makes even more sense when considering how fine an Ulrica she made and why her soprano forays weren't always successful.
> 
> N.


Maybe a falcon?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Maybe a falcon?


No, that's a bird, not a voice category! 

The difference between a contralto and a mezzo in my opinion is how they cope with the low Cs and Gs in Ulrica's aria (compare Ludwig and Verrett in that aria). Since there is a dearth of real contralto roles contraltos have to undertake mezzo rep and in reality there is little difference between those two voice types, the weight of the voice makes more of a difference there.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> - nasal, excessive mask singing
> - the top notes had no spin
> - the voice had no squillo because she didn't sing with an open throat
> - the coloratura was aspirated, unlike the coloratura of Sills, Anderson or, especially, Sutherland.
> ...


There's a video here on the excessive mask singing:






I can hear some of the defects you describe, however that doesn't necessarily mean that she wasn't a mezzo/contralto and was a soprano. Maybe she was a mezzo with less than perfect technique. Her recording of Donde lieta usci is better sung from a technical point of view than some of her later mezzo recordings, she still doesn't sound like a soprano.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> No, that's a bird, not a voice category!
> 
> The difference between a contralto and a mezzo in my opinion is how they cope with the low Cs and Gs in Ulrica's aria (compare Ludwig and Verrett in that aria). Since there is a dearth of real contralto roles contraltos have to undertake mezzo rep and in reality there is little difference between those two voice types, the weight of the voice makes more of a difference there.
> 
> N.


Sorry *F*alcon. :lol:

On the other hand, Fedora Barbieri, who also sounds totally at home in the role of Ulrica, has to duck the top notes in Eboli's _O don fatale_ in the live Giulini *Don Carlo* from the ROH, which is something Verrett never had to do.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Tuoksu said:


> You don't really need to compare her to anyone to understand her faults. Even in her prime, as early as the late 90s and early 2000s, her breathing was louder than her voice (she's naturally the breathiest, but the mic she's wearing contributes to it, I guess.) She's always sounded like she has something stuffed in her mouth and that's the result of artificial darkening. The voice of course deepened with age, so she took the woofiness to the next level trying to fit into dramatic roles but the result was just plain awful singing. She's not a dramatic voice, not even a big lyric (Claudia Muzio is a big lyric.) If you listen to her in Ruslan and Lyudmila in 1995, the voice was still more natural and not too artificial. it was a sweet young girly voice of a soprano leggiero/soubrette. That's the real voice. She's not going to transform into Renata Tebaldi just because she aged a little and gained some weight. That wouldn't substitute her vocal chords with drastically thicker ones nor enlarge her resonators. Voices are born Dramatic. Hers is only a throaty voice with a microphone.
> 
> This is her real voice. Definitely lighter, brighter and more decent and pleasant:
> 
> ...


I mean, this seems like a very long post with lots of evidence to show that a light lyric who sings a light lyric role when she's in her 20s sounds very different from a light lyric who tries to sing a full dramatic in her 40s.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> I mean, this seems like a very long post with lots of evidence to show that a light lyric who sings a light lyric role when she's in her 20s sounds very different from a light lyric who tries to sing a full dramatic in her 40s.


Whoddathunk  ......


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Indeed. If she was a more obscure singer or a student nobody would really bother to criticize her. But when she's the number 1 singer in the entire world, doing all the work in major and minor houses (now alongside her husband who is just as bad) somebody has to speak up about it. Some moments in her singing are embarrassing by any standard even for a student and don't live up to the standards of professional, let alone first-class singing.


I hear a great deal of singing by major performers on major stages that fits that description.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I hear a great deal of singing by major performers on major stages that fits that description.


That's exactly where my confusion about all the Netrebko hate comes from. Sure she's no Tebaldi, but who that is singing today is?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> There's a video here on the excessive mask singing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My sister had a great reputation as a vocal coach in Germany and people came from all over to study with her. According to the method she teaches you SHOULD sing in the mask and that if done correctly your voice should ache from all the vibrations at the end of an aria. 
She thought Marilyn Horne was one of the greatest mezzos in the 20th century. Of course that is just one teacher's opinion, but I feel some comfort that a voice teacher I knew had high regard for Horne. As far as the voice change, she said that often after a woman gives birth the hormone changes will cause a notable change in the voice of a female singer, a factor which might have effected Horne.

As far as Verrett, I can't answer this but a good barometer of whether the shift to soprano was good for her was in what shape was her voice in after singing numerous soprano roles. I primarily know early Verrett so I can't answer that query.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> As far as the voice change, she said that often after a woman gives birth the hormone changes will cause a notable change in the voice of a female singer, a factor which might have effected Horne.


Flagstad said that her voice grew in size after she gave birth to her daughter. She had considered retiring after her early career in Norway, but as we know her big "new voice" got her a big new career as one of the greatest of Wagnerian sopranos.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> This doesn't sound like a soprano to me. She sounds really strained. Recording made in 1959.


She sounds like exactly what she was: a mezzo thinking she's a soprano.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Flagstad said that her voice grew in size after she gave birth to her daughter. She had considered retiring after her early career in Norway, but as we know her big "new voice" got her a big new career as one of the greatest of Wagnerian sopranos.


I wonder if Goerke had a child before her voice tripled in size. I don't know anything about her life. Something happened. I heard her in Norma 15 years ago and she sounds much much bigger now, although her high D was epic. 
Ponselle never had children. She had the voice of a grown woman at 10. Fach is difficult for someone who could sing tenor to soprano without break, but the fact that many knowledgeable opera experts consider her the greatest Verdi soprano of all time leads me to think she sang in the right fach.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I hear a great deal of singing by major performers on major stages that fits that description.


That's my main concern. Netrebko is just the most prominent example of the decline of vocal art. But all the criticism unfortunately applies to so many other major singers. Her male counterpart Kaufmann for instance.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> That's exactly where my confusion about all the Netrebko hate comes from. Sure she's no Tebaldi, but who that is singing today is?


It's not as much hate as constructive criticism. I for one, adore Netrebko, I love WATCHING her. She's gorgeous. I simply can't listen to her without cringing though (except in very few and early recordings, mainly in Russian.) 
The fierce backlash towards her is simply proportional to the amount of worship and praise clueless fans/critics are bestowing on her -considerably more than any other major singer today- going as far as comparing her to Callas and saying she's even better (yes some critic said that after the deplorable 2014 Salzburg trovatore.)


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