# Your favorite musical journeys



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

One of my favorite things about exploring a composers output is hearing how their music evolves over time. So I'm wondering, what is everyone's favorite "musical journey" by a composer?

I've recently listened to the complete works of Webern (not the first time, but still). I think his progression is pretty interesting. The early works are in a romantic vein, but still a bit more reserved than a typical post-romantic Mahler/Strauss style work (well, except for the Pasacaglia, that work is massive and highly charged). 

Then he moves into atonal expressionism, similar to what Schoenberg was doing around the same time. But of course, Webern's style is much more concentrated and concise. Compare his 6 pieces for orchestra with Schoenberg's 5 pieces for orchestra and you immediately hear the difference. 

Then as he develops his own version of the twelve tone style, and this is the phase I think he's most known for, he uses the tone rows to create tiny, micro-worlds of expression that only last a few minutes with only a few instruments playing at any given time. These little spaces of musical expression tend to be quite haunting and memorable (5 pieces for orchestra, 6 bagatelles for string quartet). 

Then as you listen further into this phase of his writing, the musical lines start to become more complex and intricate, and less transparent than they were when he started. 

And then suddenly, his music takes a really unique turn. Starting around the composition of his Symphony, his music suddenly becomes ultra-obsessed with symmetry and mirrored musical lines. It's interesting because even though Webern's music is thought of as complex and avant-garde, and even though he continued to write using the twelve tone system, the music of this last period is almost nursery rhymish in its simplicity, transparency and obsession with even, symmetrical lines. For an example of this, just listen to the Quartet opus 22. It's made of almost nothing but a series of short melodic lines that mirror and reverses themselves throughout the instruments. 

That is pretty much the last period of his music, but with the piano variations and Cantata #2 you can tell he was working toward building something a bit more complex with the ideas of his last period.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I guess I do the same but not systematically: my listening can be all over the place (matching my moods) but I do try to put together what I have heard into narratives about how the composer or the era developed.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Prokofiev, Scriabin or Beethoven piano sonatas, which show the evolution of the composers over their life times.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

violadude said:


> One of my favorite things about exploring a composers output is hearing how their music evolves over time. So I'm wondering, what is everyone's favorite "musical journey" by a composer?
> 
> I've recently listened to the complete works of Webern (not the first time, but still). I think his progression is pretty interesting. The early works are in a romantic vein, but still a bit more reserved than a typical post-romantic Mahler/Strauss style work (well, except for the Pasacaglia, that work is massive and highly charged).
> 
> ...


I completely agree re: Webern. That might be my favorite "musical journey". You worded all that perfectly, I have nothing to add.

Another one I really enjoyed was the 10 Mahler symphonies + Das Lied von der Erde a few months ago on consecutive days. A shorter journey that I really enjoy is the four Brahms symphonies. You can definitely hear his expression find its apotheosis in the great 4th symphony. I'm still relatively new to classical music, I wish I had more answers to give!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

The evolution of Brahms from somewhat agitated young composer to much more self-contained, self-assured Olympian is interesting and rewarding to follow. And it's All Good.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Another interesting evolution, though full of cross-currents and curious contradictions, is that of Prokofiev's music. From _enfant terrible_ through all sorts of twistings and turnings, he comes (sometimes) to the "new simplicity" of his Soviet years. Something similar can be said of Béla Bartók. The 20th century's weathervanes pointed in a lot of different directions, often at the same time.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I guess we all know Stravinsky's story well enough, so I won't repeat it, but I find it fairly interesting.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Not necessarily a favorite, but Szymanowski begins with kind of lush Straussian late-Romanticism in his first phase, after it comes an intoxicating and sensuous Impressionistic period, and finally a phase influenced by Gorale folk music.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Someone is bound to talk about Beethoven's journey from Haydnesque Classicism to the Unknown Regions of the quartet Op. 131 and sonata Op.111, so I'll mention Wagner instead.

Wagner's development can be approached from several perspectives, but the first thing to keep in mind is that it happened over the course of only thirteen operas and a mere handful of short pieces, some of which are juvenalia and others of which were occasional pieces merely tossed off while the important works were gestating or on hold. What we realize when we look at his operas in succession is that a large proportion of his musical progress must have occurred while he was not sitting at his piano composing (either that, or he took dictation from a very diverse group of angels or demons!). The discontinuities from work to work are startling, probably the most obvious of which is the composition of _Die Meistersinger_ right after _Tristan und Isolde._ _Tristan,_ with its exhausting intensity and saturated chromaticism, is clearly such a radical statement that it could have no real successor (and never did), and so Wagner did a virtual about-face and found a way forward in an imaginative recreation and joyous celebration of his German musical heritage: a score both strikingly new and filled with allusions to the past, combining a stunning display of contrapuntal virtuosity and a rich diatonicism expanded and refreshed by the chromatic flexibility he had learned from his immersion in the dark passions of _Tristan._ To listen to the preludes to _Tristan_ and _Meistersinger_ in succession would be disorienting if we didn't know the music so well; only at moments here and there is there reason to think we're listening to the same composer. But the determination to "make new things" ("Kinder, schafft neues!", Wagner said) is consistent throughout his career; each new opera represents a new world of mythical or poetic imagination which required of him the conceiving of a new sound world. _The Flying Dutchman_ after _Rienzi,_ _Das Rheingold_ after _Lohengrin_, _Meistersinger_ after _Tristan,_ _Parsifal_ after _Gotterdammerung_ - each of then unthinkable until it actually happened. Perhaps no other composer besides Beethoven surprises us so consistently.

Wagner's development does show continuities, of course. There's a more or less constant progression in harmonic subtlety and in orchestration. There's also an expanding sense of form, a growing structural freedom, resulting from the elaboration of the leitmotif technique allied with the employment of harmonic schemata, including a systematic employment of key relationships, to create cohesion at every structural level and time-scale. Whatever the influences on his musical language (and like every first-rate genius he was able to absorb and transform whatever struck his ear), the expansive yet coherent musical canvases of his mature works had little precedent; the complex late works of Beethoven may be the nearest thing to a model, and Wagner always acknowledged the Ninth Symphony as a life-changing experience. But Wagner's methods have to be understood as not purely musical but as musico-dramatic, and as such their complexity is both hard to grasp and hard to overstate.

I can't think of any other succession of thirteen works (really ten, excluding the early, rarely performed operas) that have continued to occupy, and vex, analysts so long after their composition. Coming to terms with them has certainly been a journey without parallel for me.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

I'll take the musical journey of Johannes Brahms for one very important reason - he never stopped studying the music of past masters, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven. Consequently, his music evolved and got better. The young brash 20 year old who Robert Schumann hailed in "Neue Bahnen" also received in that publication the biggest target any composer ever had posted on his back. Credit must be given the man in that he understood what he didn't know and worked tirelessly to improve his compositional skills. For instance, his study of JS Bach's counterpoint made _Ein Deutsches Requiem_ as we know it possible. He traded counterpoint exercises with his friend Joachim for decades, each critiquing the others work. And, right before his death when he was so ill he could no longer leave his house he was seen still (still) poring over the manuscripts of the composers mentioned above.

Finally, just a shout out to everyone who wants to believe that Brahms was just a musical conservative throwback to an earlier era, yes, he was......but...... his idea of making melody and theme from the smallest cells made a huge impact on Schoenberg - he called it "developing variation" and it became an important concept for the 12 tone school. Also, in his latter works, Brahms would rip a melody away from meter, presenting it in a different guise or viewpoint. "Other composers had done this, but in Brahms the compositional method is to separate rhythmic planes from meter." * That idea kind of predates what Braque and Picasso would do later for painting.

*Bruce Adolphe, Inside Chamber Music, Brahms Opus 114.


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

Jacck said:


> Prokofiev, *Scriabin *or Beethoven piano sonatas, which show the evolution of the composers over their life times.


I of course agree with the post in its entirety - I mean, Beethoven sonatas might just be _the_ journey of innovation and experimentation there's ever been - but hearing all 10 of Scriabin's sonatas within one day (and nothing else on the listening menu that day) was an astounding experience. The way his style evolves throughout the pieces is simply incredible, and a joy to follow from the first sonata to the last. I should do it again soon, actually...

The journey of stylistic experimentation closest to my heart is that of Lutosławski. From a very accesible, folk-inspired early style, through the radical early experimentation with aleatoricism, all the way to the later, more transparent and lyrical style - it's all there, and following it is an intellectually and spiritually (nothing to do with religion, but I'm lacking a better word) engaging effort. I really recommend listening to his major works - or all of them, if one is feeling brave - in a chronological order!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Room2201974 said:


> Finally, just a shout out to everyone who wants to believe that Brahms was just a musical conservative throwback to an earlier era, yes, he was......but...... his idea of making melody and theme from the smallest cells made a huge impact on Schoenberg - he called it "developing variation" and it became an important concept for the 12 tone school. Also, in his latter works, Brahms would rip a melody away from meter, presenting it in a different guise or viewpoint. "Other composers had done this, but in Brahms the compositional method is to separate rhythmic planes from meter." * That idea kind of predates what Braque and Picasso would do later for painting.
> 
> *Bruce Adolphe, Inside Chamber Music, Brahms Opus 114.


Loving Brahms as much as I do, I don't think it's historically sensible to call him a "progressive" as Schoenberg did. Certainly it's possible to understate the degree of his modernism and his genuine originality. In discussing his methods of developing motifs, Schoenberg was surely aware that the metamorphosis of thematic material is traceable back to Beethoven, was employed by Berlioz and Liszt, and is at the very heart of Wagner's leitmotif technique. In Wagner's mature work, themes may arise from common motivic cells, grow and change, be dismembered or fused together, and even transform to become the expressive opposite of themselves. Unlike in Brahms, the motivation for this treatment may be at root dramatic (since this is opera), but I can't think of any music, dramatic or absolute, in which thematic development is more inventive, elaborate and sustained.

Schoenberg made his remarks when he had long ago left behind the Wagnerian tendencies of his earlier work and was focused on the techniques of absolute music, so I can understand his citing Brahms in particular. Schoenberg was as eager in his later years to show his connections to tradition as he had been earlier in life to prove himself a radical. What better way to resolve the contradiction than to propose a radical traditionalist as a forebear?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Someone is bound to talk about Beethoven's journey from Haydnesque Classicism to the Unknown Regions of the quartet Op. 131 and sonata Op.111.


Yes, someone is bound to talk about Beethoven's "journey" :lol:, and that person would be me. 
You keep saying that Beethoven light-years away from Haydn. Yet, in the 9th symphony, there are these unmistakable Haydnesque gestures clothed in Beethovenian grandeur. Listen to this remarkable passage from poco riteneute, to poco Adagio, and finally to Tempo I.

[ 48:19 ]










I think Beethoven is saying: _"Don't be so sad. I was just kidding! Let's rejoice, you millions!"_

In addition, the stress effect in the strings is reminiscent of Beethoven's another Viennese predecessor:









and as discussed previously, the 'contrapuntal subject' and the use of 'three-note fragments' in Op.111: 









Also I once discussed the similarities of late Hummel with late Beethoven. It's worth noting that Hummel wrote his F sharp minor piano sonata around the same time Beethoven wrote his late piano sonatas.
What you described as "_Unknown Regions_" in Beethoven can be identified as "_Transition from Classicism to Romanticism_", in my view. The truth is that Beethoven also adhered to the style of his own time and respected the traditions he inherited from his direct predecessors.

The passages leading to the final climax in the second movement of Op.111 are reminiscent of his own middle period works, especially Appassionata, in effect. (specifically, this passage: 



)
He is saying _"I am Beethoven"_. The message is clear in both of these works.



Woodduck said:


> the complex late works of Beethoven may be the nearest thing to a model, and Wagner always acknowledged the Ninth Symphony as a life-changing experience.


There's no doubt Beethoven was one of the greatest sources of inspiration to Wagner, but was Beethoven really "_the nearest thing to a model_"? Why then did Wagner consider Op.106, Op.111 to be lacking in 'succinctness' and want to "fix" Op.125?

https://books.google.ca/books?id=QafEkYAEX8QC&pg=PA116
_"In 1857 open letter on Liszt's symphonic poems Wagner mentions having first truly appreciated the "Hammerklavier" and C-minor sonatas (opp. 106, 111) after hearing private performances of them by Liszt."_

Piano Sonata No. 29 (Beethoven):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._29_(Beethoven)
_"even as progressive a musician as Richard Wagner, who appreciated the work and fully admired the late string quartets, held reservations for what he perceived as a lack of succinctness in its composition."_

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41440727?seq=1
"In his influential article of 1873, 'Zum Vortrage der neunten Symphonie Beethoven's' ('Performing Beethoven's Ninth Symphony'), he set out his ideas about how that could be achieved and his reasons for modifying the work's existing orchestration. For Wagner, Beethoven's deafness, and the more primitive instruments available to him, meant that certain passages lacked clarity and brilliance. Wagner's aim was to rectify these shortcomings"
(The iconic symphony: performing Beethoven's Ninth Wagner's Way by Raymond Holden)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Yes, someone is bound to talk about Beethoven's "journey" :lol:, and that person would be me.


Hmmmm.....



> You keep saying that Beethoven light-years away from Haydn.


No... I think I may have used that expression once, but with reference to certain works and certain characteristics. I don't make broad-brush generalizations without qualifying them, as you do and apparently think I do.



> Yet, in the 9th symphony there are these unmistakable Haydnesque gestures clothed in Beethovenian grandeur. Listen to this remarkable passage from poco riteneute, to poco Adagio, and finally to Tempo I.
> 
> [ 48:19 ]
> 
> ...


It's always fun to find resemblances between composers. What those resemblances show, beyond the fact that they exist - which we would normally expect - is another matter. You seem to have nothing to share in that respect.



> Also I once discussed the similarities of late Hummel with late Beethoven. It's worth noting that Hummel wrote his F sharp minor piano sonata around the same time Beethoven wrote his late piano sonatas.
> What you described as "_Unknown Regions_" in Beethoven can be identified as "_Transition from Classicism to Romanticism_", in my view.


Not in my view. If you want clear "transitions from Classicism to Romanticism," Hummel, Schubert, Spohr, Rossini, Mehul and others composing around that time are your guys. Late Beethoven was certainly fascinating to the Romantics, but wasn't really moving in their direction, with respect either to expression or to form. Arguably, the direct, heartfelt pathos of his middle period works (not to mention the affectionate pictorialism of the "pastoral" symphony) is more Romantic than the esoteric world of his late ones, in which formal innovation is such a dominant concern and creates virtually a new, personal classicism in its ultimate transcendence of personal feeling. I'm with those who feel that these works stand substantially outside the mainstream of musical development. But seeing this requires getting past the details and "resemblances" and grasping some essential meanings. It requires standing back from the trees and seeing the forest.



> The truth is that Beethoven also adhered to the style of his own time and respected the traditions he inherited from his direct predecessors.


Whenever someone says "the truth is..." I stop trusting what they have to say. In this case, you're simply incorrect. Beethoven's work was rooted in, but both departed from and expanded enormously, the "style of his own time." That's what great creative geniuses tend to do.



> There's no doubt Beethoven was one of the greatest sources of inspiration to Wagner, but was Beethoven really "_the nearest thing to a model_"? Why then did Wagner consider Op.106, Op.111 to be lacking in 'succinctness' and want to "fix" Op.125?


If you will consult the context of my statement you will know in what respect I think Beethoven was a model.



> https://books.google.ca/books?id=QafEkYAEX8QC&pg=PA116
> _"In 1857 open letter on Liszt's symphonic poems Wagner mentions having first truly appreciated the "Hammerklavier" and C-minor sonatas (opp. 106, 111) after hearing private performances of them by Liszt."_
> 
> Piano Sonata No. 29 (Beethoven):
> ...


The answer to this is "What does that prove?"



> https://www.jstor.org/stable/41440727?seq=1
> "In his influential article of 1873, 'Zum Vortrage der neunten Symphonie Beethoven's' ('Performing Beethoven's Ninth Symphony'), he set out his ideas about how that could be achieved and his reasons for modifying the work's existing orchestration. For Wagner, Beethoven's deafness, and the more primitive instruments available to him, meant that certain passages lacked clarity and brilliance. Wagner's aim was to rectify these shortcomings"
> (The iconic symphony: performing Beethoven's Ninth Wagner's Way by Raymond Holden)


You seem in a mood to deny, rather than talk about, Beethoven's journey, on which you seem unwilling or unable to accompany him.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I agree with Woodduck. It's true that Beethoven respected Classical forms continuing on into his late period, but when I listen to his last string quartets..specifically the Grosse Fugue or the slow movement of the a minor quartet, I hear a type of expression that just didn't exist in any form immediately following Beethoven's death. Certainly it isn't the expression of the heroic artist or mystical forests that the Romantics clung to. It's something much more introverted and...well spiritual (I don't really care for that term to describe music but I fail to really think of anything else that best describes it). I can't hear what I hear from Beethoven's late string quartets in the string quartets of Schubert, Schumann or even Brahms really. They stand almost wholly unique in the timeline of musical evolution and while composers after might have been inspired by these pieces, I don't think there was any attempt made to replicate them.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

violadude said:


> I agree with Woodduck. It's true that Beethoven respected Classical forms continuing on into his late period, but when I listen to his last string quartets..specifically the Grosse Fugue or the slow movement of the a minor quartet, I hear a type of expression that just didn't exist in any form immediately following Beethoven's death. Certainly it isn't the expression of the heroic artist or mystical forests that the Romantics clung to. It's something much more introverted and...well spiritual (I don't really care for that term to describe music but I fail to really think of anything else that best describes it). I can't hear what I hear from Beethoven's late string quartets in the string quartets of Schubert, Schumann or even Brahms really. They stand almost wholly unique in the timeline of musical evolution and while composers after might have been inspired by these pieces, I don't think there was any attempt made to replicate them.


My view also. When I read that Beethoven was a "transition figure" from classicism to romanticism, it always sticks in my craw. Certainly some of his early music might fit that description, as would the music of other composers of the time. But ultimately, his music showed a way that subsequent composers were unable to follow.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

violadude said:


> I agree with Woodduck. It's true that Beethoven respected Classical forms continuing on into his late period, but when I listen to his last string quartets..specifically the Grosse Fugue or the slow movement of the a minor quartet, I hear a type of expression that just didn't exist in any form immediately following Beethoven's death. Certainly it isn't the expression of the heroic artist or mystical forests that the Romantics clung to. It's something much more introverted and...well spiritual (I don't really care for that term to describe music but I fail to really think of anything else that best describes it). I can't hear what I hear from Beethoven's late string quartets in the string quartets of Schubert, Schumann or even Brahms really. They stand almost wholly unique in the timeline of musical evolution and while composers after might have been inspired by these pieces, I don't think there was any attempt made to replicate them.


Yes, Beethoven's late string quartets certainly have a quality of 'weirdness' (in a good way) that makes them unique, not just from his predecessors', but also his contemporaries' such as Cherubini's. But it occurred to me once as I was listening to Op.130 with its alternative finale, what if something like this was believed to have been written by someone else other than Beethoven, (like Spohr, for example) and had a different title, like a multi-movement 'diveritmento' (in the "late Classical" concept) ? Would our perception of the work be different?
What is it about Cavatina that makes it 'not just a "nice" slow movement'? The fact that Beethoven wrote it?
I'm not trying to diminish Beethoven's 'achievements' in terms of uniqueness and originality. Sure, Beethoven is unique and individual, - we can't stress enough. I also find that the kind of bitterness in the first movement of Op.131 is simply unforgettable. I also respect Woodduck's lowly opinion Haydn's <Seven Last Words of Christ for string quartet Op.51> that it is "just a series of adagios", but where in do we hear in later composers something like this passage in Sonata V:

[ 1:06 ]










Is it a "sacrilege" to consider Beethoven's work 'a series allegros and adagios', but perfectly OK to consider Haydn's work to be one? -- I find that it's all about 'perception'. The "X was wholly original. Composers after X attempted to emulate / tried to copy X's work, but did not succeed" logic could be made about any great composer in history. 
Has there been any successful attempt to replicate Bach's Art of the Fugue, or Musical Offering?
In Beethoven's Funeral March (Eroica) and Wagner's Siegfried Funeral March, I don't hear Mozart's kind of winding chromaticism but something different.






Beethoven was inspired by K546 (the work he studied in Hess 37) to write first movement Op.111 and Grosse Fuge, but he did not replicate the 'Mozartian kind of eccentric dissonance' anywhere in his oeuvre.






It has been said that Chopin was inspired by Mozart Rondo K511, but if you look precisely, the entirety of Chopin's oeuvre is different from K511. Even Mazurka Op.17 No.4 (which scholars claimed as the closest Chopin work to Rondo K511) is something different. 
Do you see how the Revolutionary Etude was inspired by the first movement of (listen to the endings of both) Beethoven Op.111, but they different? The same can be said of K511 / Op.17 No.4. And let's not forget even though Carl Phillipp Emmanuel Bach's 'emfinddungen' Fantasie WQ67 was written the same year (1787) as the Mozart rondo, they sound entirely different. 
These days I think, whether or not you view Beethoven as a part of the 'Transition movement from Classicism to Romanticism' entirely depends on how you see it. Yes, Beethoven is unique and original, but I find that some people tend to go way too far about how Beethoven is different from everyone else.
There are certain pieces in Beethoven's late piano sonatas that even his most fervent admirer Berlioz (and Wagner) did not really appreciate, but are we to just believe "little Berlioz was just too stupid to understand" and not blame on Beethoven for having written 'bad' pieces? (I'm just posing a question. I'm not saying the Beethoven sonatas are actually bad).

What I'm saying is I don't get the way of thinking that:
"<Seven Last Words of Christ for string quartet Op.51> is just a 'bad' work if people don't like it.
But <Piano Sonata in C minor Op.111> isn't just a 'bad' work even if people don't like it. There's so much more to it than meets the eye." 
Hence the reason why I said some time ago, [ I don't get the "if you don't get/like Haydn/Mozart you blame on the composer, but if you don't get/like Beethoven, you blame on the listener" mentality in some members. ] Some people say 'transcendence' to describe certain works, but 'transcendence' is again, a vague concept that everyone has a different perception of, and attaches a different meaning to.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Like in science, musical ideas are "in the air" and waiting to be realized in some particular way. Wagner's journey to the edge of tonality was inevitable, and would have happened anyway, and formally, would have happened in a _similar_ way, if one considers the actual "nuts and bolts" of music, such as diminished chords and their pivotal implications.

There are early traces of this direction in Beethoven's use of b9 chords. The "revolutionary ideas" High Art people keep ascribing to "heroic revolutionary" individual composers were there in the material all along, as _formal potentialities._
Schoenberg simply went further in this direction than Wagner, as well as Webern.

This becomes more evident in "Low Art" or popular forms, which are more connected and reflect more directly "evolutionary" forms, forms which reflect the journey of an _entire culture_, rather than the single vision of one isolated individual "revolutionary" composer. 
The Beatles' effect on Russian youth is the best recent example. "High Art" advocates will inevitably be loathe to recognize this influence of The Beatles as due to the power of their music, and will ascribe this effect as a sociological phenomenon, and ironically they are not far from being wrong.

Originality is clearly an evolutionary form, whereas in High Art it is presented as an individual "heroic" revolutionary form, where suddenly everything is turned upside down.

"High Art" has a sneering contempt for this notion of art that evolves over a _whole culture_ rather than art that was carried forward by an individual in some supposed revolutionary way.I think that singling out individual works or artists in this way is simply a matter of perspective.

It's interesting to note that Cage & Boulez were both after the same thing: a dissolution of their own conscious, controlling "egos" (a rejection of the "heroic" idea) and trying to create a "labyrinth," by which they would create something which subsumes all that, and they break totally with the idea of "artist as expressor" or genius or great creator, like Wagner was.

So this all set the stage for the Serialism which followed; music became a new language, a thing to "expand on" and create new possibilities out of. In this sense, many of the 'modernist critics' I have encountered in these forums are correct in their aversion to serial music, because in many ways it is the antithesis of all tradition which preceded it.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> My view also. When I read that Beethoven was a "transition figure" from classicism to romanticism, it always sticks in my craw. Certainly some of his early music might fit that description, as would the music of other composers of the time. *But ultimately, his music showed a way that subsequent composers were unable to follow*.


This is true of all 'transition figures' though. Nobody else in the renaissance sounded like Dufay, no one in the baroque like Monteverdi, no one in the classical era sounds like CPE Bach and no one in the modern era sounds like Mahler. 'Transition figure' does not mean that composers music is exactly representative of the style that followed, it implies they were composing at a time when music itself was going through a transition, and _some_ elements of their music were an important part of that transition.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Though not an expert, I think Stravinsky is an interesting musical journey. His life embraces three musical personalities and styles. First you have the WILD CHILD (Dionysian) Stravinsky exemplified by the Rite of Spring, then you have the neoclassical (Apollonian) Stravinsky exemplified by operas like Persephone, and lastly the Serial period with works like In Memoriam Dylan Thomas or my personal favorite: Fanfare for a New Theatre (for two trumpets - sounds like two roosters fighting each other).

I feel that Stravinsky always wanted an intellectual challenge, something new to work through, and that is why he would re-invent himself.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Yes, Beethoven's late string quartets certainly have a quality of 'weirdness' (in a good way) that makes them unique, not just from his predecessors', but also his contemporaries' such as Cherubini's. But it occurred to me once as I was listening to Op.130 with its alternative finale, what *if something like this was believed to have been written by someone else *other than Beethoven, (like Spohr, for example) and had a different title, like a multi-movement 'diveritmento' (in the "late Classical" concept) ? *Would our perception of the work be different?*


You could ask this about any music, and the answer would probably be "our perception would probably be somewhat different." I don't see this as indicative of anything, or useful in understanding any music. The music is what it is, and if you have good ears you'll figure out how it resembles or is different from other music.



> What is it about Cavatina that makes it 'not just a "nice" slow movement'? The fact that Beethoven wrote it?


Well, if you think it's "just a nice slow movement," that's your perception. Many people find a profound expressiveness in it, but you may never hear it that way.



> I'm not trying to diminish Beethoven's 'achievements' in terms of uniqueness and originality. Sure, Beethoven is unique and individual, - we can't stress enough. I also find that the kind of bitterness in the first movement of Op.131 is simply unforgettable. I also respect Woodduck's lowly opinion Haydn's <Seven Last Words of Christ for string quartet Op.51> that it is "just a series of adagios", but where in do we hear in later composers something like this passage in Sonata V:
> 
> [ 1:06 ]


Are you really comparing Haydn's originality in that bit with Beethoven's late quartets?



> Is it a "sacrilege" to consider Beethoven's work 'a series allegros and adagios', but perfectly OK to consider Haydn's work to be one?


You're dropping context again.



> -- I find that it's all about 'perception'. The "X was wholly original. Composers after X attempted to emulate / tried to copy X's work, but did not succeed" logic could be made about any great composer in history.
> Has there been any successful attempt to replicate Bach's Art of the Fugue, or Musical Offering?
> In Beethoven's Funeral March (Eroica) and Wagner's Siegfried Funeral March, I don't hear Mozart's kind of winding chromaticism but something different.


Originality and inimitability are matters of degree. Of course we have to perceive the former, but the latter is easily demonstrated by looking at history. Composers either tried to imitate something or they didn't, and they either succeeded or they didn't. Logic has nothing to do with it.



> Beethoven was inspired by K546 (the work he studied in Hess 37) to write first movement Op.111 and Grosse Fuge, but he did not replicate the 'Mozartian kind of eccentric dissonance' anywhere in his oeuvre.
> 
> It has been said that Chopin was inspired by Mozart Rondo K511[/URL], but if you look precisely, the entirety of Chopin's oeuvre is different from K511. Even Mazurka Op.17 No.4, which scholars claimed as the closest Chopin work to Rondo K511, is something different.
> 
> Do you see how the Revolutionary Etude was inspired by the first movement of (listen to the endings of both) Beethoven Op.111, but they different? The same can be said of K511 / Op.17 No.4. And let's not forget even though Carl Phillipp Emmanuel Bach's 'emfinddungen' Fantasie WQ67 was written the same year (1787) as the Mozart rondo, they sound entirely different.


I just don't see the point of all this. "Similar but different," "inspired by but not the same..." Well, that's all perfectly normal. So what?



> These days I think, whether or not you view Beethoven as a part of the 'Transition movement from Classicism to Romanticism' entirely depends on how you see it.


Yes, how you view it depends on how you see it.



> Yes, Beethoven is unique and original, but I find that some people tend to go way too far about how Beethoven is different from everyone else.


Just how far is way too far? What's the unit for measuring "farness"?



> There are certain pieces in Beethoven's late piano sonatas that even his most fervent admirer Berlioz (and Wagner) did not really appreciate, but are we to just believe "little Berlioz was just too stupid to understand" and not blame on Beethoven for having written 'bad' pieces? (I'm just posing a question. I'm not saying the Beethoven sonatas are actually bad).


Has anyone called Berlioz or Wagner stupid? Has it occurred to you that maybe their difficulty with late Beethoven is good evidence that people are not going "too far" in thinking the music unusual? And didn't you once note that when Wagner heard the "Hammerklavier" performed really well by Liszt it made sense to him? That these Romantic radicals found late Beethoven difficult seems to me testimony to his own radical qualities. Yes?



> What I'm saying is I don't get the way of thinking that:
> "<Seven Last Words of Christ for string quartet Op.51> is just a 'bad' work if people don't like it.
> But <Piano Sonata in C minor Op.111> isn't just a 'bad' work even if people don't like it. There's so much more to it than meets the eye."
> Hence the reason why I said some time ago, I don't get the "if you don't get/like Haydn/Mozart you blame on the composer, but if you don't get/like Beethoven, you blame on the listener" mentality in some members. Some people say 'transcendence' to describe certain works, but 'transcendence' is again, a vague concept that everyone has a different perception of, and attaches a different meaning to.


Late Beethoven is notoriously a tough nut to crack for many people. Those who "get it" - most great musicians, I'm guessing - are overwhelmingly of the opinion that it is music of extraordinary qualities, and that it occupies a very special position in music history. You don't have to agree. But you haven't offered a convincing argument that a comparable case can be made for Haydn's "Seven Last Words." After all, it's just a string of adagios...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Late Beethoven is notoriously a tough nut to crack for many people. Those who "get it" - most great musicians, I'm guessing - are overwhelmingly of the opinion that it is music of extraordinary qualities, and that it occupies a very special position in music history. You don't have to agree. But you haven't offered a convincing argument that a comparable case can be made for Haydn's "Seven Last Words." After all, it's just a string of adagios...


I agree there are extraordinary moments in late Beethoven: Op.101, Op.106 (the first movement is good, the slow movement seems a bit long), Op.111 (I'm not totally impressed by the series of boogie-woogie, tremolos, trills, but the final bits are good.) Op.127 (the first movement is my personal favorite late Beethoven piece along with Op.131), Op.131, Op.132, Grosse Fuge (for the use of contrast). - especially Op.131 stands out above the rest. 
But I feel Haydn needs a bit more credit for the limitless inspiration he gave to Beethoven. Schumann later in life recognized Haydn's merit and Brahms did to a greater extent.
Also I don't think any one composer should get a 'special treatment'. The 'Not everything he wrote was good' principle also applies to late Beethoven. :lol: I don't think there's need to defend him by saying _"you just don't understand"_ (which just seems like a 'convenient logic' to me), or elevate him way out of proportion by saying he's so individual and special from the rest of the crowd, _'so special he doesn't belong in any schools whatsoever..'_ :lol:






https://books.google.ca/books?id=GVVs2FOctCcC&pg=PA175
" 6. "It is finished." (Lento)

Statement
Haydn did his usual craftsmanlike work with the puppet opera. But he was surprised, at the first rehearsal, when he heard the voice of his lover, the olive-skinned La Polzelli, coming from one of the little wooden figures. He found it unbelievable moving. Even erotic.
He asked for the music back. He had some new ideas. This music for the little wooden heads would be the darkest, most tragic, most loving he ever wrote. In it he invented _late_ Beethoven from whole cloth. Planetary crashing. The hugest Love. He could feel the entire cosmos descending on the little carved bodies. It was too beautiful. Something about this thing was just occurring to him as totally gorgeous. "

https://books.google.ca/books?id=7iwZ-qTuSkUC&pg=PA134
https://books.google.ca/books?id=7iwZ-qTuSkUC&pg=PA135
" You couldn't commission great music from Beethoven since he created only lesser works on commission-his more conventional pieces, his variations and the like. When Haydn or Mozart wrote on commission, it was the same as their other works. " -Brahms (1896)


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

If we accept as Webern the example of a composer's evolution, then as a caveat, we must also accept the idea of a musical evolution based on a nuts-and-bolts evolution of musical language, which transcends individual achievment. Wagner is frequently cited as 'the apotheosis' of musical language, so the example of Webern puts us squarely in the arena of 'individual achievement vs. cultural evolution.'
Boulez, Stockhausen, and Cage have already demonstrated the departure from the 'individual revolution' paradigm. The can of worms is now exposed, again, as 'modernists vs. traditionalists.'


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

The musical journey of composers who climbed their personal mount everest and left us with their views from the top, mostly but not always in the last phase of their lives, are what keeps me coming back to this music.

These compositions stand out and share a certain abstraction from other works by the composer. Signature pieces which are pure and leave out unnecessary guirlandes.

To me it doesn't matter in which musical period or life phase the music was composed, as this music tends to be timeless.

To me the following composers are in this 'champions league':
Hildegard von Bingen, JS Bach, Beethoven*, Mozart*, Schubert*, Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner, Liszt*, Wolf, Webern*, Bartok*, Shostakovich*, Messiaen

*chronological order/last phase


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

My listening is less of a journey and more of a series of short, spontaneous and erratic drives to the shops. It's just how I roll.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> There's no doubt Beethoven was one of the greatest sources of inspiration to Wagner, but was Beethoven really "_the nearest thing to a model_"? Why then did Wagner consider Op.106, Op.111 to be lacking in 'succinctness' and want to "fix" Op.125?


Wagner could be dismissive of Mozart's works aswell, including late works. About _Cosi fan Tutti_, we have, from the Seattle critical review website, that:

"The problem with the opera, according to Wagner, was not that Mozart wasted his sublime music on an inferior text, but rather, to the great composer's (i.e. Mozart's) eternal credit, Mozart was simply unable to compose truly great music to such an unworthy book. Faced with the dilemma of a beloved artist's music hitched to a repugnant text, Wagner chose to devalue the music. Wagner writes, 'How doubly dear and above all honor is Mozart to me, [when I realize] that it was not possible for him to invent music for Cosi van tutte like that of Figaro! How shamefully (the libretto) would have desecrated the music!'"

By the 1850s he considered _Don Giovanni _ the "opera of all operas" and, yet, this didn't prevent him from trying to "fix" it aswell:

"Wagner spent three days and nights (...) correcting the orchestral parts and writing substitute parts for instruments, such as the trombones, that were missing from the local orchestra ; he made a working German dialogue version of some of the Italian recitatives, retaining others in their original form ; he simplified the scenic arrangements so as to avoid too many changes of the set tings; he transposed Donna Anna's aria to the graveyard scene, writing, by way of introduction to it, a short musical recitative for Ottavio and Donna Anna." - Source here.

You say that Hummel sounds like late Beethoven. I listened carefully to the music in all the links you provided and I'm not convinced. There may be some linking thematic material shared by their works (this is rather common; Mozart in _Die Zauberflöte_'s overture for example quotes Clementi), but their _styles_ sound utterly distinct to me.

About Haydn and _The Seven Last Words of Christ_, it's obviously an unique work, but I fail to see it as a precedent to Beethoven's also unique Op. 131. Some unique features of the latter that I've encountered while reading include:


The structural link with the preceding string quartets: Op. 127 has four movements, Op. 132 has five, Op. 130 has six and Op. 131 has... seven (they were composed in this order, not in the published's)! There's a motif shared by these quartets aswell, perhaps reminiscent of Gluck, be that in the first movement of Op. 132, in the _Grosse Fuge_, or in Op. 131. This multiwork layout does not appear in Haydn's piece;

The seven movements of the Beethoven work have distinct forms, even a recitative without words, what does not happen for the Haydn piece;

The work is played without pause, as if it was a single, giant movement, unlike Haydn's;

Op. 131 is a cyclical composition, with the finale directly quoting a theme in the first movement, what was unusual for the time and doesn't happen in _The Seven Last Words of Christ_;

The harmonic layout of the piece is rather uncoventional.

Not even the number of movements is the same between the two pieces. Despite it's name, Haydn's _The Seven Last Words of Christ_ actually has eight movements (nine depending on the version).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

NLAdriaan said:


> The musical journey of composers who climbed their personal mount everest and left us with their views from the top, mostly but not always in the last phase of their lives, are what keeps me coming back to this music.
> 
> These compositions stand out and share a certain abstraction from other works by the composer. Signature pieces which are pure and leave out unnecessary guirlandes.
> 
> To me it doesn't matter in which musical period or life phase the music was composed, as this music tends to be timeless.


Yes. I have exactly this perception of the final stage of the artist's journey. There IS something special about the late works of the great masters (and not only in music but in painting and literature as well). I remember, a bit hazily now, an article in a music magazine from decades ago titled "Old Men's Music." Among the works mentioned were Bach's _Art of Fugue,_ Beethoven's late quartets and sonatas, Brahms's _Clarinet Quintet,_ Wagner's _Parsifal,_ Verdi's _Falstaff,_ and Strauss's _Four Last Songs._ Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde_ may have been cited as well. All these works from their composers' final decade reveal a refinement of technique and a rarefied quality of expression that seems to reflect an old man's attainment of a higher perspective on the vicissitudes of human life, on the passions that he can look back upon with equanimity because they no longer have him in bondage.

Whether it belongs to the Baroque, the Classical, or the Romantic movement, "old men's music" seems to transcend the limitations of period and style and convey something beyond definition - something, as you say, timeless. I find it very moving to see how the maturation of a human spirit can express itself so truly in sound that we know it unmistakably when we hear it.


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I guess I do the same but not systematically: my listening can be all over the place (matching my moods) but I do try to put together what I have heard into narratives about how the composer or the era developed.


I can certainly relate to that statement and spend my musical time meandering from Bach to Schoenberg, Brahms, Beethoven, Scriabin, Shostakovitch Wagner, Elgar, Gliere and many others - you name it. Perhaps therefore in my genuine ignorance. it is easy to be less analytical than much of the music deserves.

Having said that, I am currently revisiting the 5 Villa Lobos piano concertos (played by the wonderful Christina Ortiz of course) and can certainly appreciate the progression ("Journey") throughout the series. Try this:
*



*
The other night, listened to the Bruckner 4th and found the influence of Brahms inescapable, while also appreciating the development from one Bruckner symphony to the next

Don't shoot me - I am merely an amateur - or maybe even just a dilettante


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allerius said:


> The harmonic layout of the piece is rather uncoventional.





Allerius said:


> This multiwork layout does not appear in Haydn's piece;


Satie doesn't sound completely similar to Debussy, as Berlioz doesn't to Wagner, but Satie and Berlioz are still given credit for being the sources of inspiration, right? At least can we give Haydn some credit in this regard? But if I'm asked to compare these two specific works, Haydn Op.51 and Beethoven Op.131, I'm inclined to agree the Beethoven overall is a more significant work (in my view). The Haydn has many interesting parts, but is a bit too long for a string quartet and tend to bore me a little in some places.

There are movements 'referencing each other' in the Haydn as well:









_"1. Introduzione in D minor - Maestoso ed Adagio
2. Sonata I ("Pater, dimitte illis, quia nesciunt, quid faciunt") in B-flat major - Largo
3. Sonata II ("Hodie mecum eris in paradiso") in C minor, ending in C major - Grave e cantabile
4. Sonata III ("Mulier, ecce filius tuus") in E major - Grave
5. Sonata IV ("Deus meus, Deus meus, utquid dereliquisti me") in F minor - Largo
6. Sonata V ("Sitio") in A major - Adagio
7. Sonata VI ("Consummatum est") in G minor, ending in G major - Lento
8. Sonata VII ("In manus tuas, Domine, commendo spiritum meum") in E-flat major - Largo
9. Il terremoto (Earthquake) in C minor - Presto e con tutta la forza

The seven meditations on the Last Words are excerpted from all four gospels. The "Earthquake" movement derives from Matthew 27:51ff. Much of the work is consolatory, but the "Earthquake" brings a contrasting element of supernatural intervention-the orchestra is asked to play presto e con tutta la forza-and closes with the only fortississimo (triple forte) in the piece.
Haydn uses an extremely wide range of tonalities for a composition of the time. Musicologist Mark Spitzer observes of this: "In its tonal freedom [it] anticipates [Haydn's] late Masses, particularly the Harmoniemesse ... The only other Classical 'multi-piece' which spreads itself across the entire tonal gamut with this architectural breadth is Beethoven's String Quartet in C♯ minor, op. 131... Why, then, is Beethoven given credit for experimental daring when Haydn, once again, gets there first?""_



Allerius said:


> Op. 131 is a cyclical composition, with the finale directly quoting a theme in the first movement, what was unusual for the time


I can agree Beethoven's structure is interesting, but one I thing I want to comment: sometimes I'm curious why some people tend to care so much about 'cyclic' stuff. We know this this kind of stuff had been around for centuries. And so, it doesn't really look like that big of a deal to me honestly. The finale quoting the beginning -- You see this kind of thing occurring a lot of times in Mozart's liturgical works, for example. (CPE Bach does it before the final fugue of his Magnificat: VIII. Chor. Gloria Patri et Filio) Mozart's Requiem is a kind of a cyclic mass, with the Lutheran hymn motif, "When My Final Hour is At Hand" (D-C#-D-E-F) permeating the entire work. (This is how we know; Mozart's sketch of the Amen fugue ,which was discovered later, was actually intended for the Requiem, and not other works like Kyrie in D minor K341.) 
Even if Beethoven didn't write "cylically", it wouldn't affect my view on the "quality", which is probably the most important aspect to many of us. For the most part, I'm satisfied with the general quality of the string quartets from the Razumovskies, Op.95, to Op.127, 131, 132.
Movements connected by 'transitions' are a feature of early classical symphonies such as CPE Bach's, (including Mozart's 23rd, 26th) but I'll agree this element is more fully 'realized' in Beethoven Op.131.

------------------------

K220:
Kyrie 



Dona nobis pacem 




K243:
Kyrie 



Miserere 




K317:
Kyrie 



Dona nobis pacem 




Fugue subjects of Mozart Mass in C minor K427 can combine


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

NLAdriaan said:


> The musical journey of composers who climbed their personal mount everest and left us with their views from the top, mostly but not always in the last phase of their lives, are what keeps me coming back to this music.
> 
> These compositions stand out and share a certain abstraction from other works by the composer. Signature pieces which are pure and leave out unnecessary guirlandes.
> 
> ...


Great list, but I'm curious why you didn't mark Mahler or Bruckner with a star. I think both composer's 9th symphonies (along with Mahler's DLVDE) are easily among their most remarkable works/

One composer that I think definitely deserves to be mentioned in this regard is Sibelius, whose 7th symphony (and 6th to some degree) and Tapiola are another set of works in that "otherworldly, digs deep into the soul" mode of expression.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

20centrfuge said:


> Though not an expert, I think Stravinsky is an interesting musical journey. His life embraces three musical personalities and styles. First you have the WILD CHILD (Dionysian) Stravinsky exemplified by the Rite of Spring, then you have the neoclassical (Apollonian) Stravinsky exemplified by operas like Persephone, and lastly the Serial period with works like In Memoriam Dylan Thomas or my personal favorite: Fanfare for a New Theatre (for two trumpets - sounds like two roosters fighting each other).
> 
> I feel that Stravinsky always wanted an intellectual challenge, something new to work through, and that is why he would re-invent himself.


Stravinsky's brand of Neo-classicism is so interesting because of how wide ranging "Neo-classicism" ends up being in Stravinsky's hands. There are strong thematically driven works a la Beethoven (symphony in C), there are Jazz inspired works, Renaissance, Russian Orthodox/Jewish Cantor inspired music (Symphony of Psalms/Symphony of Wind instruments), works of Mozartean grace (Violin Concerto), works directly ripped from the Baroque and Rococco periods (Pulcinella), works of pure, apollonian beauty (Apollo)...etc. You could go on and on. It's like every new work is written from a different angle of Neo-classisism.

His atonal phase is similar, you have works like the Variations in memorium Aldous Huxley which are clearly inspired by Webern. Then you have works like Agon and Requiem Canticles which look back to works like Petrushka and Symphony of Psalms, respectively, the former being practicality a twelve tone version of the athletic, bitingly sarcastic, neo-classical works he was writing earlier in his career.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Yes. I have exactly this perception of the final stage of the artist's journey. There IS something special about the late works of the great masters (and not only in music but in painting and literature as well). I remember, a bit hazily now, an article in a music magazine from decades ago titled "Old Men's Music." Among the works mentioned were Bach's _Art of Fugue,_ Beethoven's late quartets and sonatas, Brahms's _Clarinet Quintet,_ Wagner's _Parsifal,_ Verdi's _Falstaff,_ and Strauss's _Four Last Songs._ Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde_ may have been cited as well. All these works from their composers' final decade reveal a refinement of technique and a rarefied quality of expression that seems to reflect an old man's attainment of a higher perspective on the vicissitudes of human life, on the passions that he can look back upon with equanimity because they no longer have him in bondage.
> 
> Whether it belongs to the Baroque, the Classical, or the Romantic movement, "old men's music" seems to transcend the limitations of period and style and convey something beyond definition - something, as you say, timeless. I find it very moving to see how the maturation of a human spirit can express itself so truly in sound that we know it unmistakably when we hear it.


Are you sure you share my views?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

NLAdriaan said:


> Are you sure you share my views?


No. Words mean different things to different people. But your statement provided a good stimulus.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> Satie doesn't sound completely similar to Debussy, as Berlioz doesn't to Wagner, but Satie and Berlioz are still given credit for being the sources of inspiration, right? At least can we give Haydn some credit in this regard? But if I'm asked to compare these two specific works, Haydn Op.51 and Beethoven Op.131, I'm inclined to agree the Beethoven overall is a more significant work (in my view). The Haydn has many interesting parts, but is a bit too long for a string quartet and tend to bore me a little in some places.


I think that nobody is going to argue that the "father" of a genre, such as Haydn with string quartets, isn't an important source of inspiration for those who compose in this genre. Yet, I don't see a direct link between the Haydn and the Beethoven works cited here in our discussion. I already discussed the differences between Haydn's Op. 51 and Beethoven's Op. 131. I wasn't aware of this reference Haydn makes between themes in his opus that you cited, but other than that, my points remain. Perhaps you could elaborate on what exactly you view as being a direct link between them so that the Haydn piece can be viewed as a direct precursor to the Beethoven. I agree that both works are unique and avant garde for their respective times, but this is not a link, right?

In the case of Berlioz and Wagner, there's a link in terms of techniques used: for example, a direct link between the _idée fixe_ of the former and the _leitmotiv_ of the latter can be traced. About Debussy and Satie, both were composers of the same generation living in the same city, and they even were good friends, so one may have influenced the other and vice-versa, somewhat like Mozart and Salieri with opera.

"...Both Geneviève de Brabant and The Dreamy Fish have been analysed by Ornella Volta as containing elements of competition with Claude Debussy, of which Debussy was probably not aware, Satie not making this music public. Meanwhile, Debussy was having one of his first major successes with Pelléas et Mélisande in 1902, leading a few years later to 'who-was-precursor-to-whom' debates between the two composers, in which Maurice Ravel would also get involved." - Source here.



hammeredklavier said:


> Haydn uses an extremely wide range of tonalities for a composition of the time. Musicologist Mark Spitzer observes of this: "In its tonal freedom [it] anticipates [Haydn's] late Masses, particularly the Harmoniemesse ... The only other Classical 'multi-piece' which spreads itself across the entire tonal gamut with this architectural breadth is Beethoven's String Quartet in C♯ minor, op. 131... *Why, then, is Beethoven given credit for experimental daring when Haydn, once again, gets there first?*""[/I][/SIZE]


Because they are daring in different ways? So we can't call Schoenberg daring anymore because J.S. Bach was using tone rows before him? This makes no sense to me.



hammeredklavier said:


> I can agree Beethoven's structure is interesting, but one I thing I want to comment: sometimes I'm curious why some people tend to care so much about 'cyclic' stuff. We know this this kind of stuff had been around for centuries. And so, it doesn't really look like that big of a deal to me honestly. The finale quoting the beginning -- You see this kind of thing occurring a lot of times in Mozart's liturgical works, for example. (CPE Bach does it before the final fugue of his Magnificat: VIII. Chor.
> Even if Beethoven didn't write "cylically", it wouldn't affect my view on the "quality", which is probably the most important aspect to many of us. For the most part, I'm satisfied with the general quality of the string quartets from the Razumovskies, Op.95, to Op.127, 131, 132.
> Movements connected by 'transitions' are a feature of early classical symphonies such as CPE Bach's, (including Mozart's 23rd, 26th) but I'll agree this element is more fully 'realized' in Beethoven Op.131.


As I understand it, although he didn't invent cyclic form, Beethoven was the most famous composer using it systematically in instrumental works in the Classical era, and this is important because cyclic form became a major feature in many famous works of later great composers.

"*Cyclic technique is not typically found in the instrumental music of the most famous composers from the Baroque and 'high classical' eras*, though it may still be found in the music of such figures as Luigi Boccherini and Carl Ditters von Dittersdorf (Macdonald 2001; Taylor 2011). It is hard to find overt instances of thematic recall between movements in Mozart, for example, and Haydn uses the technique on only a few occasions-such as at the end of the Symphony No. 31, where the music recalls the horn call heard at the very opening of the work (Webster 2002). *In sacred vocal music, on the other hand, there are some important exceptional examples,* such as Johann Sebastian Bach's Mass in B minor and Mozart's Requiem and Mass in C major, K. 317 (Macdonald 2001).

*Although other composers were already using this technique, it is Beethoven's example that really popularised cyclic form for subsequent Romantic composers (Taylor 2011).* In the Fifth Symphony, a large part of the scherzo movement is recalled to end the finale's development section and lead into the recapitulation; the Ninth Symphony's finale rapidly presents explicit reminiscences of the three preceding movements before discovering the idea that is to be its own principal theme; while both the Piano Sonata Op. 101 and Cello Sonata Op. 102 No. 2 similarly recall earlier movements before their finales.

*Many composers in the nineteenth century followed Beethoven's lead.* In the 1820s, both Franz Schubert and the young Felix Mendelssohn wrote numerous important cyclic works: Schubert, in the Wanderer Fantasy (1822) created a "4-in-1" double-function design that would leave its mark decades later on Liszt, while Mendelssohn, in such works as the Octet (1825) and String Quartet No. 2 (1827) created highly integrated musical forms that proved influential for later Romantic composers (Taylor 2011). Another significant model was given by Hector Berlioz in his programmatic Symphonie fantastique of 1830, whose "idée fixe" serves as a cyclic theme throughout the five movements. By the 1840s, the technique is already quite established, being found in several works by Robert Schumann, Fanny Hensel, Niels Gade, Franz Berwald, and the earliest compositions of César Franck (Strucken-Paland 2009)." 
- Source here.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

The final movement of Beethoven's sonata 31, chronicling his illness and recovery in fugal form. I find it incredibly affective, even more so than the Heiliger Dankgesang.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allerius said:


> "*Cyclic technique is not typically found in the instrumental music of the most famous composers from the Baroque and 'high classical' eras*,
> - Source here.


[ 2:36 ]










I find the article you cited to be ridiculously biased and wrong. Because there's indeed a lot of 'cyclism' in Mozart. Works like Divertimento in D major K334 (the thematic link between the D major Allegro-sonata and the D minor Andante variations) , Piano Concertos No.20 in D minor K466, No.24 in C minor K491 ('double forms' in the outer movements), and String Quartets No.15 in D minor K421 (the 4 movements linked by the similar arpeggio + hammering of 4 repeated notes, "F-A-C-C-C-C" : I / II / III / IV ), No.19 in C major K465 ("winding chromaticism in the inner parts" {see Roger Parker's notes below}), Symphony No.41 in C major (the third and the fourth movements having the C-D-F-E motif), Fantasie & Sonata in C minor K475 & 457 are notable examples. And also about liturgical works,- As I said, look into the other examples, Litaniae de venerabili altaris sacramento in E flat major K243, and Spatzenmesse in C major K220, which I cited in my previous comment. I'm sure I heard instances of thematic recall within Missa brevis in D major K194 as well.

"The Fantasy by nature has a more improvisational quality than the subsequent sonata, and the pairing presents a classical correlation to the baroque combination of fantasy and fugue. Both the fantasy and sonata are linked by a focus on the bass register and octaves in the bass clef."

Take a look at this article: < W. A. Mozart's Phantasie in C minor, K. 475: The Pillars of Musical Structure and Emotional Response >
"... Mozart's Phantasie transcended the historical and stylistic moment in which it was created, thus what Mozart began was finished by Liszt in his piano composition Sonata in B-minor (1852-1853). It is perfectly reasonable that Mozart's Phantasie served as a model to Franz Liszt for a typological definition of his one-movement sonata cycle. ..."

and < W.A. Mozart's Fantasy in C minor, K. 475, And the Generalization of the Lydian Principle Through Motivic Thorough-Composition > 
"... Mozart had both works published together; to the educated audiences of his day, he did not need to explicitly state the obvious point, that the Fantasy was his own investigation into the principles employed in his composition of the earlier sontata. And, as we shall see below, the *Fantasy indeed picks up exactly where the Sonata leaves off. ..."*

Not only is the Fantasie remarkable for its one-movement sonata cycle structure ( Is Beethoven really being tonally ambiguous? ), it is linked with Sonata K457 in all its thematic working.

Compare these sections, for example:
K457: 



K475: 




K457: 



K475: 




Likewise, Mozart's cyclic ideas often manifest, not just in "themes" but concepts but in broad sense of "form".
I made a post some time ago about how all the subjects of fugues in Mass in C minor K427 can "combine": Fugue subjects of Mozart Mass in C minor K427 can combine

And the cyclic concept of Piano Concerto No.24 in C minor K491 is "double": The "double exposition" and "double solo counterpart" of the first movement are matched by the "double variations" of the last movement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto_No._24_(Mozart)
"... Another departure from convention is that the solo exposition does not re-state the secondary theme from the orchestral exposition. Instead, a succession of new secondary thematic material appears. Musicologist Donald Tovey considered this introduction of new material to be "utterly subversive of the doctrine that the function of the opening tutti [the orchestral exposition] was to predict what the solo had to say. ..."

"... The pianist and musicologist Charles Rosen argues that Mozart thus created a *"double exposition"*. Rosen also suggests that this explains why Mozart made substantial elongations to the orchestral exposition during the composition process; he needed a longer orchestral exposition to balance its *"double" solo counterpart.* ..."

"... Variations II to VI are what Girdlestone and Hutchings independently describe as *"double" variations.* Within each variation, each of the eight-measure phrases from the theme is further varied upon its repeat ( AX-AY-BX-BY ). ...."


String Quartet No.19 in C major K465:

https://www.gresham.ac.uk/lecture/transcript/print/mozart-quartet-in-c-major-k465-dissonance/
Mozart - Quartet in C major, K465 (Dissonance)
Professor Roger Parker
"... The second moment is an Andante cantabile in F major, and starts in much simpler vein: with a clear melody in the first violin. But almost immediately, in the second phrase, you'll hear again that winding chromaticism in the inner parts, and also those tell-tale repeated notes in the cello. Soon after that, the moment become obsessively concerned with a small motive that is first passed from violin to cello, and then to the inner parts; and then, again, you will hear the characteristic build up of instruments, starting (as the slow introduction did) with the cello and moving upwards. In other words, it soon becomes clear that the *slow introduction to this 'dissonance' quartet has actually been a kind a mine from which material for the rest of the movements are to be taken.* ..."

This is also interesting:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/jul/23/mozart-last-symphonies-nikolaus-harnoncourt-review
"... Harnoncourt is convinced that Mozart intended the three symphonies, famously composed in just two months in the summer of 1788, as a unity - the parts of a gigantic instrumental oratorio, which was perhaps inspired by a choral work of CPE Bach's, Die Auferstehung und Himmelfahrt Jesu, that he had conducted earlier the same year. That, Harnoncourt's reasoning goes, would explain the thematic connections between the three works, and also why the opening to the E-flat Symphony K543 is conceived like an overture, and why neither that work nor the G minor Symphony K550 has what he calls a "proper" finale, unlike the C major Jupiter Symphony K551, whose last movement seems intended to sum up everything that has come before. ..."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> [ 2:36 ]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Common traits among themes is not the same as cyclic form, and what Harnoncourt says about Mozart's last three symphonies is not relevant at all. I don't know what else you've said here because the post is too long to read, like many of your posts. Who wants to sit listening to all those examples? I don't want to feel like I'm back in college. I was ecstatic to graduate and kept cheering inside about never having to endure another professor droning on.

I agree with Allerius that "Cyclic technique is not typically found in the instrumental music of the most famous composers from the Baroque and 'high classical' eras." That doesn't mean it's never found, but Beethoven seems to have been the initial impetus for later composers to use it.

Uh - ohhhhhh! I said "Beethoven"... 

(Hey, now...Isn't this thread about going on musical journeys with composers?)


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> (Hey, now...Isn't this thread about going on musical journeys with composers?)


You're right. I too was going off-topic by discussing with hammeredklavier, and apologize for that.

...

One of my favorite musical journeys is with the Beethoven symphonies. I love how he starts his career as a symphonist with a very beautiful work, already unconventional in it's first bars, and then progresses to the point of in my opinion reaching the zenith of what I know of the form with the Ninth.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> what Harnoncourt says about Mozart's last three symphonies is not relevant at all.


Right, you have a sharp eye. I added it just as a 'fun fact'.



Woodduck said:


> the complex late works of Beethoven may be the nearest thing to a model, and Wagner always acknowledged the Ninth Symphony as a life-changing experience.


I have to confess; I would not have disagreed with the above statement if it was said by someone else like Allerius, DaveM, KenOC, etc. But ever since your strong denial of the evidence of Mozart-Wagner connection in the thread: Harmonic Similarities in Wagner and Mozart, - I just want to object (for no real compelling reason) to everything you say to praise Beethoven regarding his fluence on Wagner. :devil: It's not like a personal grudge or anything. I apologize if you found it annoying, Mr. Woodduck. I think you're an awesome & cool guy, :lol: and I like your contributions to the forum: they're very thoughtfully, intellectually written (albeit slightly "cringey" sometimes I must say :lol. My attitude to you is often much like: Wagner & Mahler. Remember you asked me once: "Why!? Hammeredklavier! Why!?" Perhaps I'm the one who should be asking you this question. :lol:



Woodduck said:


> I don't want to feel like I'm back in college. I was ecstatic to graduate and kept cheering inside about never having to endure another professor droning on.


What irony.. Perhaps millionrainbows thinks this way about you. :lol:
Anyway back to the topic, I think every great composer has an interesting 'musical journey'. Beethoven is of course interestingly individual in style within the 'idioms' he covered, - I think late Beethoven has a lot of elements of early Romantic -- early Romantic song-like qualities, (the way Op.101 opens, for example) a lot of abrupt changes of key signatures, tempo/dynamic markings. And the use of prolonged trills to sustain strongly reminds me of Chopin Nocturne Op.62 No.1 in B major, Fugue in A minor, for example. The sentimental slow movement of the Hammerklavier Sonata strikes me as early Romantic in style, especially.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

..................................


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Perhaps millionrainbows thinks this way about you. :lol:


My my. The young thing is impertinent as well as pedantic and persnickety.

Oh yes...I almost forgot: :lol:


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