# Second Round. Absheulicher. Flagstad and Varnay



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)




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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm surprised to find myself hesitating in a choice between Flagstad and Varnay. The latter was a more specific sort of vocal actress, with an intense musical personality and a tension in her singing that must have been commanding in the theater. and can make an effect even on recordings. Those qualities do count for something here, but perhaps not enough to make up for the strident, acidulous timbre that's particularly trying on her effortful high notes. This aria runs the vocal gamut from powerful declamation to bel canto lyricism, and neither of these Wagnerian heroines is entirely comfortable in meeting its contradictory demands. If I choose Flagstad it's simply because her warm, full, free voice outweighs for me the marginally greater intensity of Varnay, whose good intentions are undermined by the less attractive qualities of her singing. Should it come to that I'll take Christa Ludwig over either of these ladies. And then there's Frida Leider...


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I'm surprised to find myself hesitating in a choice between Flagstad and Varnay. The latter was a more specific sort of vocal actress, with an intense musical personality and a tension in her singing that must have been commanding in the theater. and can make an effect even on recordings. Those qualities do count for something here, but perhaps not enough to make up for the strident, acidulous timbre that's particularly trying on her effortful high notes. This aria runs the vocal gamut from powerful declamation to bel canto lyricism, and neither of these Wagnerian heroines is entirely comfortable in meeting its contradictory demands. If I choose Flagstad it's simply because her warm, full, free voice outweighs for me the marginally greater intensity of Varnay, whose good intentions are undermined by the less attractive qualities of her singing. Should it come to that I'll take Christa Ludwig over either of these ladies. And then there's Frida Leider...


I likely damage my reputation contradicting Woodduck, who runs rings around me in knowledge about opera, but it is like we listen to Varnay with ears tuned in different ways altogether. I just don't hear a "strident, acidulous timbre" in Varnay at all, although it is immensely individual in sound. The effortful high notes my friend hears sound gleaming to me. Where she shows particular strength in comparison with the golden voiced Flagstad is in the all important low passages. Flagstad can produce an amazing amount of sound down low in other arias without going into chest, but she plays it very safe here and it gets demerits from me. I find that both ladies sing the lyrical passages with great beauty. If I am the only person to react differently to Varnay's performance here it won't be the first time my opinions on some singers goes counter to the whole group. Varnay has a very devoted following, but I have so far felt I was the only person in that camp here. And Woodduck, you will get your chance at the divine Frida Leider as well as someone else who may surprise and blow many of you away.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I likely damage my reputation contradicting Woodduck, who runs rings around me in knowledge about opera, but it is like we listen to Varnay with ears tuned in different ways altogether. I just don't hear a "strident, acidulous timbre" in Varnay at all, although it is immensely individual in sound. The effortful high notes my friend hears sound gleaming to me. Where she shows particular strength in comparison with the golden voiced Flagstad is in the all important low passages. Flagstad can produce an amazing amount of sound down low in other arias without going into chest, but she plays it very safe here and it gets demerits from me. I find that both ladies sing the lyrical passages with great beauty. If I am the only person to react differently to Varnay's performance here it won't be the first time my opinions on some singers goes counter to the whole group. Varnay has a very devoted following, but I have so far felt I was the only person in that camp here. And Woodduck, you will get your chance at the divine Frida Leider as well as someone else who may surprise and blow many of you away.


I would agree, Varnay doesn't have an effortful voice, just a very peculiar one. I think Flagstad is better here, but in other roles I love Varnay. She is almost certainly one of those voices which didn't record very well, with any peculiarities being noticeably accentuated as in the theatre it was supposedly a very beautiful, powerful instrument coupled to an artist of great sensitivity. Interestingly, it's also a voice which aged quite naturally and steadily in my opinion, despite losing it's youthfulness while she was still fairly young. In her earliest Met performances you can hear a voice which is a little softer grained than it was to become, but still showing signs of those traits which distinguished her singing later on. Over time the voice gradually hardened and darkened and the vibrato became a little more pronounced, but I don't hear an immediate 'uglification' of her voice sometime in the early 50s as some have suggested. By the late 50s it was certainly an instrument more suited to Orturd than Elsa but I can imagine the sound being a great deal more attractive live than on recording even then.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Hmmm. This is a tricky one. Do I go for the greater beauty of Flagstad's voice or the greater intensity of Varnay? I don't react to Varnay quite the same as Woodduck, but, to my ears, the voice does become a bit metallic in the upper register (it's something I hear in Crespin too, funnily enough). Still, I think that in general I preferred the urgency in her performance, even if it hardly matches Ludwig's radiance. 

Varnay. No, Flagstad. No, Varnay, though tomorrow I might have changed my mind again.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Having felt lukewarm about both voices and being completely unfamiliar with the aria and how it should be sung, I just picked the more appealing of the two voices -- Varnay.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


>


In one of your follow up “Abscheulicher” contests, may I suggest Elisabeth Ohms and Lilli Lehmann? (Curiously, Lehmann is ever spared the accusation of singing “everything”. By the same token, no live recordings of hers exist and no one alive today heard in person either; had they, they would have certainly heard her in smaller theaters than is the norm today in the major opera centers, in traditional productions, and with orchestras tuned-in lower and of inferior performance standards, too).


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ALT said:


> In one of your follow up “Abscheulicher” contests, may I suggest Elisabeth Ohms and Lilli Lehmann? (Curiously, Lehmann is ever spared the accusation of singing “everything”. By the same token, no live recordings of hers exist and no one alive today heard in person either; had they, they would have certainly heard her in smaller theaters than is the norm today in the major opera centers, in traditional productions, and with orchestras tuned-in lower and of inferior performance standards, too).


I've been able to accommodate your suggestions in the past, but I have 8 candidates ( the max in my opinion) and I am very firm in my choices on this. Lots of singers have taken this on so it is hard to narrow it down. I have a surprise one that may even challenge Ludwig (I had her version as my favorite full version of the opera years ago). Choosing the winner will not be as easy as when Callas competes.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> (I had her version as my favorite full version of the opera years ago).


You've piqued my curiosity. Will it be Jones, Janowiitz? Nilsson or Norman perhaps? My favourite version of the opera is Karajan, but I have a feeling Dernesch won't be in the competition.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> You've piqued my curiosity. Will it be Jones, Janowiitz? Nilsson or Norman perhaps? My favourite version of the opera is Karajan, but I have a feeling Dernesch won't be in the competition.


Left field completely. All the other versions are good that you mentioned but not room for all. Jones would be awesome in video I expect!!! Norman is in so many contests I've planned already. You will be AMAZED. Thanks for what you said in the last round by the way! I will save the mystery contestant for the last round because I am mean.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I've been able to accommodate your suggestions in the past, but I have 8 candidates ( the max in my opinion) and I am very firm in my choices on this. Lots of singers have taken this on so it is hard to narrow it down. I have a surprise one that may even challenge Ludwig (I had her version as my favorite full version of the opera years ago). Choosing the winner will not be as easy as when Callas competes.


Looking forward to what’s coming down the pipeline. I do hope none of the follow ups will include Jessye Norman, who never sang the role on stage and who, per my own personal opinion, was too self satisfied to ever bring a role or characterization to life. It was always all about her and little else. Or Janowitz, who was overparted and whose instrumental approach to singing was equally self satisfied, always about pretty sounds and nothing else, not even words.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ALT said:


> Looking forward to what’s coming down the pipeline. I do hope none of the follow ups will include Jessye Norman, who never sang the role on stage and who, per my own personal opinion, was too self satisfied to ever bring a role or characterization to life. It was always all about her and little else. Or Janowitz, who was overparted and whose instrumental approach to singing was equally self satisfied, always about pretty sounds and nothing else, not even words.


I prefer Jessye in other roles.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> You've piqued my curiosity. Will it be Jones, Janowiitz? Nilsson or Norman perhaps? My favourite version of the opera is Karajan, but I have a feeling Dernesch won't be in the competition.


A pity, because Dernesch has such a beautiful, rich middle register where a lot of this music lies. Her _bête noire _is the high register where she doesn’t have much freedom. (I’m not suggesting her inclusion BTW).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> A pity, because Dernesch has such a beautiful, rich middle register where a lot of this music lies. Her _bête noire _is the high register where she doesn’t have much freedom. (I’m not suggesting her inclusion BTW).


Even her top register is fine on this recording. It's the best thing she ever did, I think.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I’m not sure I like Varnay’s voice much. Here she sounds nasal in the middle register, though I don’t mind her rather fierce high notes as they bring some excitement. Flagstad’s supremely even voice and pristine tone is an unfair comparison to Varnay’s, however committed her performance.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I feel uneasy choosing between two exceptional performance, still further, between voices of such a vertiginous level. I remember that Lotte Lehmann got the majority as Sieglinde because Flagstad sounded more heroically and godlike. 
Here Varnay seemed to me more interesting, richer in shades, sophisticated. And probably I like a lower voice in this part. 
Whether a singer sounds "girlish" or "boyish" doesn't mean much for me. Opera is a stylized form of art. Here we see more or less middle aged women, who impersonate a girl, disguised as a boy (well, a rigorous youth), and nobody notices it, even another girl. Can we take it too seriously? Or can our pleasure and admiration be less because we understand it?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ColdGenius said:


> I feel uneasy choosing between two exceptional performance, still further, between voices of such a vertiginous level. I remember that Lotte Lehmann got the majority as Sieglinde because Flagstad sounded more heroically and godlike.
> Here Varnay seemed to me more interesting, richer in shades, sophisticated. And probably I like a lower voice in this part.
> Whether a singer sounds "girlish" or "boyish" doesn't mean much for me. Opera is a stylized form of art. Here we see more or less middle aged women, who impersonate a girl, disguised as a boy (well, a rigorous youth), and nobody notices it, even another girl. Can we take it too seriously? Or can our pleasure and admiration be less because we understand it?


I'm no opera scholar, but I think it is just as effective for a middle aged woman to rescue her husband as a young slip of a girl. It was certainly that way when I saw it 4 times.I don't even think it wise that a woman undertake this part till she is at least near 30 as it is a big part calling for the voice and experience of a seasoned singer. There are many opera roles I can enjoy when they are sung well if the singer is older than the part supposedly calls for. Much of opera calls for the suspension of belief IMHO.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I'm no opera scholar, but I think it is just as effective for a middle aged woman to rescue her husband as a young slip of a girl. It was certainly that way when I saw it 4 times.I don't even think it wise that a woman undertake this part till she is at least near 30 as it is a big part calling for the voice and experience of a seasoned singer. There are many opera roles I can enjoy when they are sung well if the singer is older than the part supposedly calls for. Much of opera calls for the suspension of belief IMHO.


Of course. There are many opera characters, who are presumably young. But they demand on powerful, not young voices. And they are impossible to be played without certain life experience. Violetta, Isolde (and Tristan), Elisabetta de Valois and many-many more.


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