# Almost a folklore music, but the composer is known - how do you call it ?



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

In Slovak classical music, there are some vocal pieces, which resemble and blend with our folklore so well, that people don't even know, the composer could be identified. I myself was shocked a couple times, that something is actually from an opera or a choral composition. We call it "zľudovené", like... "enfolklored" ? Is there an English expression for this ?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Also, do other countries have these ? For instance, do people in Italy know the authors of the Neapoletan songs ?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> Also, do other countries have these ? For instance, do people in Italy know the authors of the Neapoletan songs ?


I think most of the composers of Neopolitan songs are known, such as Ernesto De Curtis, Luigi Denza, Eduardo di Capua and Francesco Paolo Tosti, who were mostly active during the latter part of the nineteenth century and the early part of the twentieth century.

In England there was a whole school of English composers from the same period, who incorporated English Folk Song into their music, even in their symphonies. Composers such as Vaughan Wiliams, Holst, Delius, Warlock and Butterworth all made use of folk song in their music.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I think most of the composers of Neopolitan songs are known, such as Ernesto De Curtis, Luigi Denza, Eduardi di Capua and Francesco Paolo Tosti, who were mostly active during the latter par of the nineteenth century and the early part of the twentieth century.


I have a better example now. "Silent night, holy night". The author can be identified, but people do not know or care, and many believe it to be a folklore without a known composer, like e.g. Scarborough fair. Is there a word for this ?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I have a better example now. "Silent night, holy night". The author can be identified, but people do not know or care, and many believe it to be a folklore without a known composer, like e.g. Scarborough fair. Is there a word for this ?


Not quite the same thingg. We know that _Silent Night_ was composed by Gruber in 1818, but we don't really know who wrote the tune of _Scarborough Fair_. It goes back to at least the seventeenth century, but there are so many versions and derivatives that it is difficult to know when the tune was first heard.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Not quite the same thingg. We know that _Silent Night_ was composed by Gruber in 1818, but we don't really know who wrote the tune of _Scarborough Fair_. It goes back to at least the seventeenth century, but there are so many versions and derivatives that it is difficult to know when the tune was first heard.


Never mind. I was looking for the word, but maybe there isn't one in English.

Scarborough fair = folklore
Silent night = mistakenly believed to be folklore


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> Never mind. I was looking for the word, but maybe there isn't one in English.
> 
> Scarborough fair = folklore
> Silent night = mistakenly believed to be folklore


I'm not sure people do believe that _Silent Night_ is a folksong. We know it as a Christmas carol, but that's not quite the same thing, and, although it has become popular in English translation both here and in the US, I think most people with any knowledge of music know it was originally a German carol, even if they can't name the composer.

Maybe I'm not grasping your point.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> In Slovak classical music, there are some vocal pieces, which resemble and blend with our folklore so well, that people don't even know, the composer could be identified. I myself was shocked a couple times, that something is actually from an opera or a choral composition. We call it "zľudovené", like... "enfolklored" ? Is there an English expression for this ?


There can't be that many English-language examples of a direct equivalent, if only because there aren't many English-language operas that were ever popular enough to allow it happening, outside of the occasional patriotic number like "Rule, Britannia". Only one I can think of is "Home Sweet Home" from Bishop's _Clari, the Maid of Milan_ (1823):



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home!_Sweet_Home!_



It became enormously popular, or as commentators put it, *"achieved folksong status"*--that may be the closest thing to the "English expression for this" that you asked about. In popular plays that happened to contain a scene that took place in a parlor, with inevitable spinet, someone would go, in mid-plot, "but first, won't you give us a little song, my dear?" and out the leading lady would pop with "Home Sweet Home". It got used for the Lesson Scene in Barbiere di Siviglia. Adelina Patti and after her Nellie Melba would make California miners in from the gold fields, or Australian sheep-shearers in from the Outback, or whomever, weep helplessly with it. It became so inescapable that it became a joke, played over comedy shots of squalid locales, for instance. This recording by Met and concert luminary Alma Gluck is, by its recording date of 1911, possibly the last example of it being performed utterly seriously, and well





:

On the other hand, there is the theory that it was used by Donizetti in the Mad Scene in his _Anna Bolena _(1830) at "Al dolce guidami", for Anna's longing to just go home. The melody is very similar, but not an exact match, and Authorities Differ, as Authorities will.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

@ewilkros , thank you, an "achieved folksong status" seems like a correct expression to me !


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> @ewilkros , thank you, an "achieved folksong status" seems like a correct expression to me !


When in doubt for a single word, just talk around it


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ewilkros said:


> When in doubt for a single word, just talk around it


Yes, but I would not think of this word combination as a non native speaker.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BBSVK said:


> I have a better example now. "Silent night, holy night". The author can be identified, but people do not know or care, and many believe it to be a folklore without a known composer, like e.g. Scarborough fair. Is there a word for this ?


I can't think of an English word that means "in the style of a folk song, or often mistaken for one." Many composers through the centuries have drawn on folk sources - the traditional music of their own or others' cultures - or have infused their own styles with melodic, harmonic and rhythmic elements from the native music of their countries. This became a major characteristic of the so-called "nationalist" movements of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when artists wanted to celebrate their distinctive cultural identities. It's often impossible to tell whether a given melody is traditional or newly composed, and in some cases highly original music by classical composers creates its own quasi-folkloric world. I was surprised to read that Sibelius, a dedicated nationalist whose music evokes Finland for many around the world, did not draw upon traditional music in his symphonies and tone poems, and that in fact his melodies are actually quite different from Finnish folk song.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> ... and in some cases highly original music by classical composers creates its own quasi-folkloric world.


Exactly. Like Silent night. The way we sing it now differs from the original notation and wikipedia describes the evolution.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Are you just meaning _traditional_ folk songs (eg,. Scarborough Fair, Three Ravens, John Barleycorn, etc)?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not sure people do believe that _Silent Night_ is a folksong. We know it as a Christmas carol, but that's not quite the same thing, and, although it has become popular in English translation both here and in the US, I think most people with any knowledge of music know it was originally a German carol, even if they can't name the composer.
> 
> Maybe I'm not grasping your point.


The

Silent Night (or Stille_ Nacht)_ is also known throughout Europe, Latin America, parts of Africa and possibly the Middle East and parts of China and maybe other parts of Asia, where European culture has penetrated.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

I think the idea is conveyed simply in 'folk song', which surely refers to any common and longstanding tune that has been sung by the people over many years, regardless of whether the people singing it know its origins.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Forster said:


> I think the idea is conveyed simply in 'folk song', which surely refers to any common and longstanding tune that has been sung by the people over many years, regardless of whether the people singing it know its origins.


Yes, apparently it is that way in the English speaking world.

In our country, kids in elementary schools are required to distinguish between what you would probably call a "traditional folk song" (@Merl ?) and an "artificial" song, that has "gained a folk song status". Seriously, it is a question which appears on tests. I must say, it is not the most absurd thing that appears on tests of Slovak language ;-)


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Not distinguishing between the two can be a costly mistake though - Richard Strauss incorporated the tune of "Funiculì, Funiculà" into Aus Italien's fourth movement, "Neapolitan Folk Life", thinking it was a traditional Italian folk song, when it was in fact a piece written by Luigi Denza in 1880. Denza filed a lawsuit against Strauss and eventually won (from Wiki).


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Art Rock said:


> Not distinguishing between the two can be a costly mistake though - Richard Strauss incorporated the tune of "Funiculì, Funiculà" into Aus Italien's fourth movement, "Neapolitan Folk Life", thinking it was a traditional Italian folk song, when it was in fact a piece written by Luigi Denza in 1880. Denza filed a lawsuit against Strauss and eventually won (from Wiki).


Yes, copyright is the only issue, when I saw this question discussed outside of school and academia.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> Not distinguishing between the two can be a costly mistake though - Richard Strauss incorporated the tune of "Funiculì, Funiculà" into Aus Italien's fourth movement, "Neapolitan Folk Life", thinking it was a traditional Italian folk song, when it was in fact a piece written by Luigi Denza in 1880. Denza filed a lawsuit against Strauss and eventually won (from Wiki).


Another such mistake was made by Bizet, who based the "Habanera" in _Carmen_ on what he thought was a folk song. Turned out to be a song by the Spanish Basque composer Sebastian Yradier, who also wrote the famous "La Paloma."


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> Yes, apparently it is that way in the English speaking world.
> 
> In our country, kids in elementary schools are required to distinguish between what you would probably call a "traditional folk song" (@Merl ?) and an "artificial" song, that has "gained a folk song status". Seriously, it is a question which appears on tests. I must say, it is not the most absurd thing that appears on tests of Slovak language ;-)


I'm not sure if special words for this case do exist in Russian. But there are lots of traditional songs, relatively modern songs that "gained a folk song status" and simply pop songs of different degrees of vulgarity that pretend to be in folk style. Also the most of Russian composers since Glinka made experiments with traditional music. (I'm impressed with tests. My school is behind me for a long time. My baby has several years in advance. So we must enjoy the moment).


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

BBSVK said:


> Never mind. I was looking for the word, but maybe there isn't one in English.


The closest I can think of is "public domain." Some songs (like "Happy Birthday") are so popular that they've lost their copyright and slipped into "the public domain." This also can happen with trademarked product names if not strenuously defended (viz. Kleenex, Spam, Dumpster, etc.)


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

NoCoPilot said:


> The closest I can think of is "public domain." Some songs (like "Happy Birthday") are so popular that they've lost their copyright and slipped into "the public domain." This also can happen with trademarked product names if not strenuously defended (viz. Kleenex, Spam, Dumpster, etc.)


Public domain is something entirely different. It quite simply means something where the copyright has expired, so the operas of Verdi are public domain, but that doesn't mean that people mistakenly think the melodies are folk songs without a known composer.

I think it is more common for people to assume that anonymous pieces have a known composer as most people have totally lost touch with the folk tradition. 'Mock folk song' would describe the phenomenon where someone writes something in a folk style or in imitation of a folk song.

N.


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