# The long winded Piano Sonatas in B flat: Beethoven or Schubert



## clavichorder

Beethoven's Hammerklavier or Schubert's Sonata 21 in B flat? Which of these highly revered sacred cattle do you prefer?


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## KenOC

I'll take the Hammer, Clav. Schubert just noodles around so much, way slow to get to the point. Hey, I'm double parked!


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## clavichorder

KenOC said:


> I'll take the Hammer, Clav. Schubert just noodles around so much, way slow to get to the point. Hey, I'm double parked!


If by "double parked" you mean to hint that both noodle around and take too long to get to the point, yes I agree. But the Schubert has prettier tunes.


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## KenOC

Schubert also has that horrible expo repeat in the 1st movement. Some pianists have the good sense to omit it.


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## Ukko

Hmph. 1) The sonatas are Inwardly Unrelated. 2) The Beethoven is Hard to Get (no invitations to Sympathize, just Pay Attention else Go Away). 3) The Schubert has recorded interpretations out there that are _very_ different from each other; are we talking Kempff? Richter? Schnabel?

Anyway, I prefer the recorded interpretations of Webster (B) and Schnabel (S) when I am not listening to Levi (B) or Richter (S). Or maybe...

See? Its an apples vs. avocados thing.


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## clavichorder

Ukko said:


> See? Its an apples vs. avocados thing.


Everything you say is very true Ukko, and that's why I asked the question. I was hoping that a religious feud would start over something other than atonality or Beethoven vs. Mozart.


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## Bulldog

The Hammerklavier is my favorite Beethoven piano sonata. Schubert's Sonata no. 21 isn't my favorite Schubert sonata. So I voted for Beethoven.


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## Ukko

clavichorder said:


> Everything you say is very true Ukko, and that's why I asked the question. I was hoping that a religious feud would start over something other than atonality or Beethoven vs. Mozart.


Ah you sly dog. If this doesn't work, maybe you can get something going on the subject of Proper Attitude Toward Bach's Sonatas & Partitas, contrasting Rachel Podger with Mela Tenenbaum?

( I'm in the Tenenbaum camp.)


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## Triplets

The Hammer is an awe inspiring piece, but it is the one Beethoven Sonata that while Ideeply respect it, I don't love it. The Schubert isn't perfect, but I love it. It is the difference between being with a lover with whom one has a great physical chemistry despite their possessing a few trivial physical flaws, and admiring an ice queen that won't deign to recognize your existence


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## Dim7

clavichorder said:


> Everything you say is very true Ukko, and that's why I asked the question. I was hoping that a religious feud would start over something other than atonality or Beethoven vs. Mozart.


Has there been a religious feud over Beethoven vs. Mozart? I sure tried starting one, but I don't think I succeeded.


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## KenOC

Dim7 said:


> Has there been a religious feud over Beethoven vs. Mozart? I sure tried starting one, but I don't think I succeeded.


You failed because Mozart is so obviously superior, regardless of some totally uninformed opinions around here!  (There, maybe that'll help.)


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## clavichorder

KenOC said:


> You failed because Mozart is so obviously superior, regardless of some totally uninformed opinions around here!  (There, maybe that'll help.)


I appreciate your zeal Sir, but I hope my thread doesn't need any assistance just yet!


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## SeptimalTritone

The Hammerklavier is like the greatest thing ever.

Of course, Mozart's 17th piano concerto is like the greatest thing ever too, but in a different way. The same thing goes for Schumann's Fantasy in C.

As for Schubert, I wouldn't put him on the same level...


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## Ukko

SeptimalTritone said:


> The Hammerklavier is like the greatest thing ever.
> 
> Of course, Mozart's 17th piano concerto is like the greatest thing ever too, but in a different way. The same thing goes for Schumann's Fantasy in C.
> 
> As for Schubert, I wouldn't put him on the same level...


Since _clavi_ seems more interested in controversy than in restricted subject matter, I feel free to suggest that 'level' does not describe the music output of any of the composers mentioned - or most others, for that matter. So, _ST_, are you referring to peaks, valleys, means, what? Regarding only instrumental works, Schubert had some pretty high peaks, e.g. that string quintet.

[yeah I know, I'm nit-picking. Just trying to further _clavi_'s cause.]


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## Steatopygous

I object to the adjective in the thread title, long-winded. It's clearly deliberately pejorative, and we now understand the reason is to inspire debate, but I don't find either work a second too long.


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## joen_cph

Tough one ... but the Hammerklavier represents more differences, more modernity (hard to explain), and the slow movement comprises the lyricism of the Schubert work too, IMO. 
So Beethoven.

BTW, agree that recordings mean a lot. I´ll rather hear a good Schubert than a poor or dull Beethoven in this case.


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## Janspe

I'd go for the Hammerklavier. I do love the Schubert work too, though!

If the question was about the last three sonatas (as a sort of trilogy) of both composers, it'd be much more difficult to choose...


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## Ukko

Janspe said:


> I'd go for the Hammerklavier. I do love the Schubert work too, though!
> 
> If the question was about the last three sonatas (as a sort of trilogy) of both composers, it'd be much more difficult to choose...


That's a good thought, _Janspe_. The Beethoven 'set' is really of four - epiphany and three glorious afterthoughts - but the three last Schubert sonatas, played as Richter understands them, yeah. Make the Schubert a 'set of four' by including the string quintet... that's power, folks.


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## Manxfeeder

clavichorder said:


> Which of these highly revered sacred cattle do you prefer?


Which one does the World Health Organization declare causes cancer?


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## Blancrocher

To slightly alter a wise saying by TC-member TalkingHead: In this poll I voted for Schubert.


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## Kieran

Schubert. I prefer my fruits organic, where possible...


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## Vaneyes




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## DavidA

The Hammerklavier was a revolutionary work which changed the concept of the piano sonata.
The Schubert is one of the sublime at offerings in the repertoire.
Neither are long winded except in the hands of inferior pianists.
Which I prefer depends what mood I'm in though I must confess my mood usually inclines towards Schubert.


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## PeterF

There are many Beethoven piano sonatas I would rather hear than the Hammerklavier. It just has never been a favorite.
On the other hand, I like the Schubert D 960 very much, and listen to it far more often than the Beethoven piece.

I Find that for my taste, the Hammerklavier is more intellectually focused, while the Schubert D 960 is more tuneful and emotionally satisfying


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## Ukko

PeterF said:


> There are many Beethoven piano sonatas I would rather hear than the Hammerklavier. It just has never been a favorite.
> On the other hand, I like the Schubert D 960 very much, and listen to it far more often than the Beethoven piece.
> 
> I Find that for my taste, the Hammerklavier is more intellectually focused, while the Schubert D 960 is more tuneful and emotionally satisfying


"intellectually focused" - say what?


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## DiesIraeCX

The Schubert D. 960, if the repeats are taken in the first movement, wears out its welcome sometimes; similar to Beethoven's Violin Concerto (Sorry, Beethoven!). I still enjoy both of these works greatly, strange as that may seem considering what I just wrote.

That said, I'll take the _Hammerklavier_, thank you. Although I don't enjoy it as much as those three "glorious afterthoughts" (thanks, Ukko) that are opuses 109, 110, 111, I still am in awe of Op. 106.


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## DavidA

DiesIraeCX said:


> The Schubert D. 960, if the repeats are taken in the first movement, wears out its welcome sometimes; similar to Beethoven's Violin Concerto (Sorry, Beethoven!). I still enjoy both of these works greatly, strange as that may seem considering what I just wrote.
> 
> .


Berthoven's violin concerto wears put its welcome? I think you've been listenng to the ultra slow brigade who treat the first movement as andante rather than allegro ma non troppo


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## DiesIraeCX

DavidA said:


> Berthoven's violin concerto wears put its welcome? I think you've been listenng to the ultra slow brigade who treat the first movement as andante rather than allegro ma non troppo


I've heard the Barenboim/Perlman, Karajan/Mutter, and a period performance (I don't recall the performers). The Karajan was the slowest of the bunch, but it has nothing to do with tempo speed. It's the material, I just don't think it merits its 25-minute duration. It's a matter of taste, but I don't think the _Violin Concerto_ belongs in the _uppermost_ echelon of Beethoven's masterpieces (i.e., Symphony #9, Piano Concerto #4, String Quartet #14, Piano Sonata #30, to name but a few).


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## sam93

Very difficult choice, but out of these two I prefer Schubert's B flat sonata. The second movement is one of my favourite Schubert moments, and easily his best sonata. Although somebody's already pointed out the only flaw of this masterpiece, the unnecessary repeat of the exposition. 

There's no denying the Hammerklavier's greatness, but I believe Beethoven's greatest Sonata's to be the Appassionata and his final sonata in C minor.


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## Alydon

A hard choice but in the end I have to go for the Hammerklavier. I love the Schubert but have always thought it a slightly unbalanced work with the first two movements beings glorious and the last two being slightly lacking the same creativity. I can honestly say that the first time I heard the Hammerklavier it blew my head off and I'm still awe struck every time I hear it. I believe Beethoven really found a new level of inventiveness with this work and it certainly breaks new ground, and for me is his greatest piano sonata though several of the others rank as 'equal' in my list of favourites.

It would be difficult to live without the great Schubert sonata but it seems to be a continuation in his too short artistic life rather than be truly ground breaking, but with the Hammerklavier the cup is overflowing.


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## DavidA

DiesIraeCX said:


> I've heard the Barenboim/Perlman, Karajan/Mutter, and a period performance (I don't recall the performers). The Karajan was the slowest of the bunch, but it has nothing to do with tempo speed. It's the material, I just don't think it merits its 25-minute duration. It's a matter of taste, but I don't think the _Violin Concerto_ belongs in the _uppermost_ echelon of Beethoven's masterpieces (i.e., Symphony #9, Piano Concerto #4, String Quartet #14, Piano Sonata #30, to name but a few).


I think it was Mutter who persuaded HvK about the slow tempo adopted which is more Andante than Allegro ma non troppo. Try the Heifetz performance which brings it up to speed.


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## fluteman

Imagine if Schubert had lived just 5 more years. I think Mozart lived long enough to reach the peak of his abilities but Schubert did not.


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## Animal the Drummer

Agree about Schubert but not about Mozart, not by a long chalk.


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