# Salome



## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

I just listened to Strauss' Salome for the first time (Solti). I thought I'd take a break from my usual Baroque fare and my, what an enjoyable experience it was! 

Fortuitously, I had a copy of Oscar's play on the shelf did a pre-read, preemptive strike on the plot. The libretto is virtually the same as the play itself, save for a few minor edits but, goodness me, what a difference when the narrative is set to strauss' through composed music. 

Just great and just saying... and I'm going back for more.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Glad you like it - if you like that then you'll probably like _Elektra_ if you don't know that one already.

And as you like the idea of Oscar Wilde's work in an operatic setting try and seek out these two operas by Alexander von Zemlimsky, even if the respective librettists took a few liberties:

_Eine florentinische Tragödie (A Florentine Tragedy)_ (1915-16) - based on the play of the same name, which was left incomplete by Wilde.

_Der Zwerg (The Dwarf)_ (1919-21) - based on the short story _The Birthday of the Infanta_.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

KRoad said:


> Strauss' Salome


a masterpiece and one of the few cases where music fits libretto so perfectly well.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Now that you have heard Solti/Nilsson, try the Karajan recording with Hildegard Behrens. Nilsson sounds more like a Valkyrie than a teenager whereas Behrens is more believable. Another soprano who did great in the role is Maria Ewing who I saw do it at Covent Garden.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

With the right singers/actors it can be the single most effective dramatic work on the opera stage.

Bryn Terfel and Catherine Malfitano in the 1990s was unforgettable. Thankfully recorded.





And of course Maria Ewing made quite a name for herself in the same decade. ;-)


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Another recommendation for Elektra. And for background reading you have Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides, although they favored her brother for the title role.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

_Salome_ is shimmering, shimmying, grisly kitsch at its operatic zenith. What DavidA likes to say about Wagner really does apply to Strauss; it's just entertainment, so don't bother thinking about it. Just go and have a salacious good time. Given the state of the world, the next time you see a severed head the spectacle may not be so pleasurable.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I would like to make a couple of nominations for the next severed heads


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## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> _Salome_ is shimmering, shimmying, grisly kitsch at its operatic zenith. What DavidA likes to say about Wagner really does apply to Strauss; it's just entertainment, so don't bother thinking about it. Just go and have a salacious good time. Given the state of the world, the next time you see a severed head the spectacle may not be so pleasurable.


I disagree completely. Perhaps Salome is the closest "just entertainment" but his operas after that become increasingly interesting.

For example, the composer's aria in _Ariadne auf Naxos_ has much to say about the purpose of music, especially if one takes the time to dissect it (one might even encounter some Nietzsche). There is also a slightly ironic aspect to _Ariadne_; I have always seen it as gently mocking _Tristan_. Ariadne longs for death, even singing it's the only "pure realm". When Dionysus comes to her, she mistakes him for Hermes, the messenger of death, and doesn't recognize that she could instead affirm life with Dionysus. Perhaps the idea of death as release has been so engrained in her subconscious? Perhaps one of the questions of the opera was what would have happened had Isolde been left in the phenomenal world of the day?

Or how about _Capriccio_, a fascinating study on the relationship between the words and the music, which still remained unsolved at the end of Strauss's very successful operatic career. And of course the Freudian aspects of _Elektra_. Not to mention the heavily symbolic _Die Frau ohne Schatten_. (which, by the way, features an orchestra of 164 players; a fact that never fails to stagger me).

For me, at least, there is a lot more to do at a Strauss opera than just be entertained.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ma7730 said:


> I disagree completely. Perhaps Salome is the closest "just entertainment" but his operas after that become increasingly interesting.
> 
> For example, the composer's aria in _Ariadne auf Naxos_ has much to say about the purpose of music, especially if one takes the time to dissect it (one might even encounter some Nietzsche). There is also a slightly ironic aspect to _Ariadne_; I have always seen it as gently mocking _Tristan_. Ariadne longs for death, even singing it's the only "pure realm". When Dionysus comes to her, she mistakes him for Hermes, the messenger of death, and doesn't recognize that she could instead affirm life with Dionysus. Perhaps the idea of death as release has been so engrained in her subconscious? Perhaps one of the questions of the opera was what would have happened had Isolde been left in the phenomenal world of the day?
> 
> ...


Well, I _was_ talking about _Salome_. I think... 

I'm not sure that _Elektra_'s pathological obsessions conduce to much contemplation either, by the way. Just calling it "Freudian" doesn't confer much richness of meaning on it (does Elektra have a crush on her father? On her mother? Her sister? We all have our problems). Hoffmansthal and Strauss pretty well jettison any Greek metaphysical speculation and just give us a bunch of pathetic and unpleasant women in extreme states of emotional and mental decadence. I can't say I relate, but it's a terrific _grand guignol_ thriller, if that's your thing. Strauss clearly decided he'd had enough of such sensationalism, and moved on to more cerebral material.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Well, I _was_ talking about _Salome_. *I think*...


That was your first mistake. Where would this place be if everyone did that??


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> That was your first mistake. Where would this place be if everyone did that??


We might ask that about the country at this peculiar moment in our history.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> I just listened to Strauss' Salome for the first time (Solti). I thought I'd take a break from my usual Baroque fare and my, what an enjoyable experience it was!





> Bryn Terfel and Catherine Malfitano in the 1990s was unforgettable. Thankfully recorded.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent replies, the best one can get.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> it's just entertainment, so don't bother thinking about it.


tried but can't afford giving up one of masterpieces we have so few in music history.


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## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Well, I _was_ talking about _Salome_. I think...


Sorry, I must have misinterpreted what you meant by "What DavidA likes to say about Wagner really does apply to Strauss; it's just entertainment, so don't bother thinking about it."
It sounded like you were putting down _all_ Strauss.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ma7730 said:


> Sorry, I must have misinterpreted what you meant by "What DavidA likes to say about Wagner really does apply to Strauss; it's just entertainment, so don't bother thinking about it."
> It sounded like you were putting down _all_ Strauss.


No, no... And I'm not really putting down _Salome_. It's marvelous for what it is. I just don't think it has much depth, intellectual or emotional. John the Baptist's head has as much spirituality on a platter as it had while still attached to him. This is all about nubile necrophilia. Fin de siecle decadence. Whoopee!

Listen to Maria Cebotari: 




That's no prom queen, Clyde.


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## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> No, no... And I'm not really putting down _Salome_. It's marvelous for what it is. I just don't think it has much depth, intellectual or emotional. John the Baptist's head has as much spirituality on a platter as it had while still attached to him. This is all about nubile necrophilia. Fin de siecle decadence. Whoopee!
> 
> Listen to Maria Cebotari:
> 
> ...


Oh you just gave me an excellent idea for a regie production!

_Salome: Necrophiliac Prom Queen Vixens Unchained!_
"Why doesn't he love me? He has to love me! Why do they say I'm not normal!? Just you wait! They won't forget _this_ prom!"

Shoot, I'm not sure it'll be able to incorporate generic grey military costumes and video projections... We might have a problem...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Woodduck... you seem to be describing Offenbach... or perhaps even Strauss jr. more than Strauss... minus the dark _fin de siecle_ "nubile necrophilia". :lol: But then again... I love all three of them... and I'm not all that certain how far intellectual depth counts toward works of artistic brilliance. Die Zauberflöte? Cosi fan tutte?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Strauss - Salome - Birgit Nilsson - final scene part II 
Perfect this.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Listen to *Maria Cebotari*:


Cebotari now has entry on Schigolch's "great female singers of the past" discussion thread, nice performance

I was just listening to 52 Salome last night with Ljuba Welitsch


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

ma7730 said:


> I disagree completely. Perhaps Salome is the closest "just entertainment" but his operas after that become increasingly interesting.
> 
> For example, the composer's aria in _Ariadne auf Naxos_ has much to say about the purpose of music, especially if one takes the time to dissect it (one might even encounter some Nietzsche). There is also a slightly ironic aspect to _Ariadne_; I have always seen it as gently mocking _Tristan_. Ariadne longs for death, even singing it's the only "pure realm". When Dionysus comes to her, she mistakes him for Hermes, the messenger of death, and doesn't recognize that she could instead affirm life with Dionysus. Perhaps the idea of death as release has been so engrained in her subconscious? Perhaps one of the questions of the opera was what would have happened had Isolde been left in the phenomenal world of the day?
> 
> ...


And what about the warm and humane _Die schweigsame Frau_, arguably the greatest comic opera of the twentieth century? Or _Daphne_, with its transcendent, luminous ending? Or the too little known _Friedenstag_ with its sublime final chorus?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

ma7730 said:


> Sorry, I must have misinterpreted what you meant by "What DavidA likes to say about Wagner really does apply to Strauss; it's just entertainment, so don't bother thinking about it."
> It sounded like you were putting down _all_ Strauss.


Just to correct this misinterpretation of what I actually said as there appears a tendency to take a statement to its bleakly logical conclusion by some: because I view opera (and Wagner) primarily as entertainment (which they were primarily written as in spite of all the protestations) does not mean we do not think about them. I was deeply moved by a movie yesterday. It is entertainment but that doesn't mean it cannot carry a message. Let's face it, Mozart wrote his operas as entertainment but that doesn't mean we don't think about them, wonder at them. I actually think there is far more pointed philosophy in (e.g.) Figaro than in Wagner. But I go to opera to be entertained not for any great philosophical insights. So do most people. I mean, when I saw tristan recently I didn't notice many of the audience keen to experience the love death!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> Cebotari now has entry on Schigolch's "great female singers of the past" discussion thread, nice performance
> 
> I was just listening to 52 Salome last night with Ljuba Welitsch


Well, it had an entry since 2011, but it's fine to discuss her again.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Pugg said:


> Strauss - Salome - Birgit Nilsson - final scene part II
> Perfect this.


Birgit Nilsson singing Salome in Swedish:


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

DavidA said:


> I view opera (and Wagner) primarily as entertainment (which they were primarily written


he would compose in opéra comique if wanted to be entertainment.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Woodduck... you seem to be describing Offenbach... or perhaps even Strauss jr. more than Strauss... minus the dark _fin de siecle_ "nubile necrophilia". :lol: But then again... I love all three of them... and I'm not all that certain how far intellectual depth counts toward works of artistic brilliance. Die Zauberflöte? Cosi fan tutte?


Of course art doesn't have to be profound to be brilliant. I'd say _Salome_'s final scene is one of the most brilliant in opera. I can't say that _Salome_ prompts much reflection about life, though, or nourishment to the spirit. Given the woodenness of Strauss's John the Baptist, I'd say its main message is that pagan depravity is way more fun than Christian virtue, at least until your crazy pagan papa has you crushed to death.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Just to correct this misinterpretation of what I actually said as there appears a tendency to take a statement to its bleakly logical conclusion by some: because I view opera (and Wagner) primarily as entertainment (which they were primarily written as in spite of all the protestations) does not mean we do not think about them. I was deeply moved by a movie yesterday. It is entertainment but that doesn't mean it cannot carry a message. Let's face it, Mozart wrote his operas as entertainment but that doesn't mean we don't think about them, wonder at them. I actually think there is far more pointed philosophy in (e.g.) Figaro than in Wagner. But I go to opera to be entertained not for any great philosophical insights. So do most people. I mean, when I saw tristan recently I didn't notice many of the audience keen to experience the love death!


Florestan, on January 24: "You guys are making my brain hurt. I'm just going to enjoy the operas and not think too much about what they mean."

DavidA, in response: "*That is the right course.* One *problem* with Wagner is that his admirers want to read *huge profundities into his operas which perhaps even Wagner didn't know were there*. Its is Norse mythology - and *pretty muddled* at that. *The libretti aren't actually that good* - though it must be said that they are no worse than a lot of operas. I often wonder what Wagner would have done if he had had a librettist of the quality of da Ponte or Boito. But he didn't. So *just quit worrying and pontificating about profundities* and enjoy the music!"

And that is just one quotation among many I could have cited. You've made a virtual career out of urging us not to take opera - and especially Wagner, the most serious of opera composers - too seriously. Yet, for some reason, many of us, here and around the world, now and forever, have not heeded your advice. Why do you suppose that is?

Why not just confess your own inability to understand the deeper implications of art and refrain from giving advice to those who find those implications endlessly fascinating?

For your information: Wagner knew a good deal about what his works had to say, but also said to his friend August Roeckel that there were undoubtedly meanings in true art that even the artist couldn't see.

Do you mind terribly if we search for those meanings? You don't have to think about them if you don't want to. We'll do just fine without your participation or approval.


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## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

SimonTemplar said:


> And what about the warm and humane _Die schweigsame Frau_, arguably the greatest comic opera of the twentieth century? Or _Daphne_, with its transcendent, luminous ending? Or the too little known _Friedenstag_ with its sublime final chorus?


I know far too little of these operas. What recordings do you suggest?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

For Strauss' _Der Rosenkavalier_ there is one recording by which all others are measured:










_Elektra_:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

_Die Frau ohne Schatten_:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

_Ariadne auf Naxos_:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

_Arabella_:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

_Die Schweigsame Frau:_



















_Daphne:_


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

_Capriccio:_



















_Intermezzo:_


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

_Salome:_


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> _Die Schweigsame Frau:_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You forgot thee golden standard .


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

The Caballe/Leinsdorf Salome was one of my biggest listening surprises in opera when I first heard it, I couldn't imagine her in this role, but I probably reach for this one as much (if not more) than the Nilsson/Solti. Really recommend it


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> _Salome:_


This cover reminds me of a Hammer horror poster! Possibly one of the worst Decca ever did in its unintentional spoofiness


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> This cover reminds me of a Hammer horror poster! Possibly one of the worst Decca ever did in its unintentional spoofiness


Yep. Poor Birgit looks more like the head of Jokanaan. Freshly severed!:devil:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I saw SALOME at Virginia Opera two years ago, and it was the very finest opera production/performance I've ever seen in person The music itself, heard live, is magnificent; the hairs were standing up on the back of my neck virtually from the start. I have the great (IMO) 1990's recording with Cheryl Studer and Bryn Terfel, but even that can't quite capture the power of Strauss' orchestration, particularly in the "bass"; you really have to experience it live in order to hear that.

As for Oscar Wilde's original play -- the libretto which comes with that recording has the play's text as well as the libretto, so you can see how closely they compare.

Edited to add: I don't know whether Woodduck above is just being facetious or not, but I think there's a lot of depth in SALOME. I believe, though, that the opera is actually about _aesthetics_, more so than what it seems to be about (necrophilia, the beheading of a man). I think you have to view it partly within the context of Wilde himself and the "art for arts sake movement" he was a part of. But that's a topic for another thread.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

for that matter _Der Rosenkavalier_ is way more disgusting then _Salome_.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> for that matter _Der Rosenkavalier_ is way more disgusting then _Salome_.


As in the love for a young man by a older woman?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Pugg said:


> As in the love for a young man by a older woman?


Or the seduction of a young woman by an older man?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Or the seduction of a young woman by an older man?


Answering this must be in Area51, if you know what I mean.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I saw SALOME at Virginia Opera two years ago, and it was the very finest opera production/performance I've ever seen in person The music itself, heard live, is magnificent; the hairs were standing up on the back of my neck virtually from the start. I have the great (IMO) 1990's recording with Cheryl Studer and Bryn Terfel, but even that can't quite capture the power of Strauss' orchestration, particularly in the "bass"; you really have to experience it live in order to hear that.
> 
> As for Oscar Wilde's original play -- the libretto which comes with that recording has the play's text as well as the libretto, so you can see how closely they compare.
> 
> Edited to add: *I don't know whether Woodduck above is just being facetious or not, but I think there's a lot of depth in SALOME. I believe, though, that the opera is actually about aesthetics,* more so than what it seems to be about (necrophilia, the beheading of a man). I think you have to view it partly within the context of Wilde himself and the "art for arts sake movement" he was a part of. But that's a topic for another thread.


No, I wasn't being facetious. And I agree that _Salome_ is primarily an aesthetic object: we are not meant to take its grisly subject matter seriously, or to feel anything for its depraved (Salome and family) and wooden (John the Baptist) characters. We are meant only to thrill to its music and, let's be honest, to get a delicious frisson out of its naughtiness. I don't consider this a form of "depth," but perhaps others do.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Woodduck: There's a subtle difference, I think, in what we're saying. You're saying that SALOME is a great aesthetic object (I don't disagree), and I'm saying SALOME is _about_ aesthetics. In other words, I'm saying that aesthetics are the theme of the opera's libretto -- or one of its major themes. I'm actually going to write a blog post about this sometime soon, so stay tuned.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Woodduck: There's a subtle difference, I think, in what we're saying. You're saying that SALOME is a great aesthetic object (I don't disagree), and I'm saying SALOME is _about_ aesthetics. In other words, I'm saying that aesthetics are the theme of the opera's libretto -- or one of its major themes. I'm actually going to write a blog post about this sometime soon, so stay tuned.


I'll be interested in your ideas.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pugg said:


> As in the love for a young man by a older woman?


The illicit love of a young man for an older married woman.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Becca said:


> Now that you have heard Solti/Nilsson, try the Karajan recording with Hildegard Behrens. Nilsson sounds more like a Valkyrie than a teenager whereas Behrens is more believable. Another soprano who did great in the role is Maria Ewing who I saw do it at Covent Garden.


The Solti/Nilsson is outstanding....
two of my favorite Salomes I have in the final scene recordings - both by Reiner - 
Ljuba Welitsch/MetOpera from 3/49
Inge Borkh CSO from 12/56

both are outstanding - Welitsch does a great job, beautiful phrasing and expression - she really digs into the perverse passion of the title role. 
Borkh isn't as good a singer as Welitsch, but she is good for this role - kind of an hysterical screamer, if you will, which does fit the role...
Reiner's conducting is superb in both, and his CSO version with Borkh is notable for the absolute ferocity and _carnivorous _playing of the Chicagoans...Reiner must have really pissed them off that day, because the performance is blood-curdling. between Borkh and the orchestra, the blood-lust is almost tangible.
same applies to the Elektra excerpts on the same disc - the viciousness, the blood-vengeance just pours forth.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The illicit love of a young man for an older married woman.


Happens all the time.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pugg said:


> Happens all the time.


Doesn't make it right though. Always think Rosenkavelier is a tawdy tale


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Doesn't make it right though. Always think Rosenkavelier is a tawdy tale


I never said that David, just a observation.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Doesn't make it right though. Always think Rosenkavelier is a tawdy tale


A bit like Don Giovanni, Rigoletto, Cosi, Lulu and a whole host of others. Opera libretti tend not to be too wholesome in the main.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> A bit like Don Giovanni, Rigoletto, Cosi, Lulu and a whole host of others. Opera libretti tend not to be too wholesome in the main.


Can you imagine the Don reciting his marriage vows and settling down? Virtue is undramatic except at the moment of repentance. After that? Ho hum...no more opera.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Can you imagine the Don reciting his marriage vows and settling down? Virtue is undramatic except at the moment of repentance. After that? Ho hum...no more opera.


The Don will _never _settle down. No, not _my _Don. One of the first conscious Darwinians, he made an entire career out of DNA promulgation. A scientist in an age of science, he had his assistant keep careful notes as well.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Can you imagine the Don reciting his marriage vows and settling down?


i can, and why not, that would make a splendid opera, in support of family values too.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Pugg said:


> As in the love for a young man by a older woman?


also the entire mood of _Der Rosenkavalier_, this disgusting sexuality pervading the entire piece, while Salome isn't about sex really, its more about standpoints in life.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> also the entire mood of _Der Rosenkavalier_, this disgusting sexuality pervading the entire piece, while Salome isn't about sex really, its more about standpoints in life.


And obsession about kissing Jochanaan , she wants him so desperate, lust it called.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> also the entire mood of _Der Rosenkavalier_, this disgusting sexuality pervading the entire piece, while Salome *isn't about sex really, its more about standpoints in life.*


Just necrophilia!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> i can, and why not, that would make a splendid opera, in support of family values too.


_Le Nozze di Giovanni?_ Then why not _Die Hochzeit von Jokanaan und Salome?_ The fact that he's a priest and she's underage won't matter if she's the instigator. After all, the girl just wants to get a head in life.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> _Le Nozze di Giovanni?_ Then why not _Die Hochzeit von Jokanaan und Salome?_ The fact that he's a priest and she's underage won't matter if she's the instigator. After all, *the girl just wants to get a head in life*.


:devil::devil::devil: Salome is definitely a cut above your average girl.......


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> also the entire mood of _Der Rosenkavalier_, this disgusting sexuality pervading the entire piece, while Salome isn't about sex really, its more about *standpoints in life*.


Salome does have quite the standpoint, doesn't she? Perhaps both operas would be improved if the curtain rose to reveal the Marschallin in bed with John the Baptist, who would expound his own standpoint in life at such length that she'd be quite relieved when he ran off and wooed young Salome. Baron Ochs, out of jealousy, would then have John decapitated, and Salome, also weary of listening to John expound his standpoint, would find his head much more appealing once it could no longer sing about the coming of the Lord and making the crooked straight and the rough places plain.

Ja, ja.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> also the entire mood of _Der Rosenkavalier_, *this disgusting sexualit * pervading the entire piece, while Salome isn't about sex really, its more about standpoints in life.


Ugh... since when has sexuality become disgusting?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> _Le Nozze di Giovanni?_ Then why not _Die Hochzeit von Jokanaan und Salome?_


as *joined in Christ* it sure will do.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Salome does have quite the standpoint, doesn't she?


that isn't so clear at first but finally she explains herself near the end.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> that isn't so clear at first but finally she explains herself near the end.


Thank goodness. There has to be some explanation.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Thank goodness. There has to be some explanation.


Thank goodness somebody knows what the explanation might be. It's certainly not me. I can't think how people think that opera mirrors real life. It couldn't be more divorced from it. Opera along with a myriad of other things is a form of entertainment and should be treated as such. Certainly there might be a message somewhere in there but it's not real and no one should be using it as a template to live by. Salome is a tale enhanced by its musical interpretation but, for goodness sake, don't think it has some deep religious or secular sub-text. It's a trifle, a piece of fluff to please and engage for a brief moment in time. Nothing more. Of course prima la musica, doppo le parole! And now I retreat to my bunker to await the incoming artillery shells.


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> _Le Nozze di Giovanni?_ Then why not _Die Hochzeit von Jokanaan und Salome?_ *The fact that he's a priest and she's underage won't matter if she's the instigator.* After all, the girl just wants to get a head in life.


I assume you misspoke. You can't actually believe this!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DonAlfonso said:


> I assume you misspoke. You can't actually believe this!


All the other sentences were meant humorously. Why would that one be different? Perhaps the subject of it is too much in the news? The Catholic Church has certainly done its share of misspeaking.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Thank goodness somebody knows what the explanation might be. It's certainly not me. *I can't think how people think that opera mirrors real life. It couldn't be more divorced from it. Opera along with a myriad of other things is a form of entertainment and should be treated as such.* Certainly there might be a message somewhere in there but it's not real and no one should be using it as a template to live by. Salome is a tale enhanced by its musical interpretation but, for goodness sake, don't think it has some deep religious or secular sub-text. It's a trifle, a piece of fluff to please and engage for a brief moment in time. Nothing more. Of course prima la musica, doppo le parole! And *now I retreat to my bunker* to await the incoming artillery shells.


Opera "couldn't be more divorced from real life"? Then how does it manage to move people so deeply? And what was Joseph Kerman going on about in "Opera and Drama"? And why did Gluck and Wagner think that opera needed reforming? Were people not sufficiently "entertained" to satisfy those pretentious old grouches?

Can you find good answers to those questions in your bunker?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> Salome is a tale enhanced by its musical interpretation but, for goodness sake, don't think it has some deep religious or secular sub-text.


why don't, especially that it has the both and the dialogue between the two?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Opera "couldn't be more divorced from real life"? Then how does it manage to move people so deeply? And what was Joseph Kerman going on about in "Opera and Drama"? And why did Gluck and Wagner think that opera needed reforming? Were people not sufficiently "entertained" to satisfy those pretentious old grouches?
> 
> Can you find good answers to those questions in your bunker?


Good question! Probably not. I really should not post when I've had one too many Taliskers! Makes me argumentative like my dad and as my mum used to say he would start a fight in an empty house about stuff he didn't even believe himself! Ignore my previous nonsense although I think sometimes we shouldn't take everything too seriously.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Congratulations to Patricia Racette who won the Grammy Award for her marvelous and much deserved portrayal of _Salome_.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Just listened to the final scene from Salome in the remastered Warner set, 1940s Karajan, Ljuba Welitsch and Vienna Philharmonic from 78s. Gripping, nasty stuff.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I just saw Salome this evening (on Met on Demand). Just like Der Rosenkavalier, I was really struck by the libretto. Richard Strauss picked deep stuff! Even if very simplistic, the layered meaning is so deep. I think the music works all the better to get these layers across. Strauss was really good at depicting this... emptiness within decadence...

That whole scene of Salome kissing the head of John the Baptist really got to me. There's so much meaning to this image. John the Baptist might as well be the Christ figure, being crucified because he wouldn't be for us the way we wanted him to. But when Salome finally gets him for what she wanted him for, it's empty, _bitter_. And his lifeless eyes will still not look at her, the futility... _Why did we kill God??_ To be cursed by God for not accepting his salvation, for trying to use him for our own selfish purposes, ends in death, as it does for her. This is so meaningful, a parable of astounding proportions!! I'm gonna wrap my head (still firmly on my shoulders!) around this idea for weeks. I feel inspired to write...


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## Artran (Sep 16, 2016)

Yesterday I saw Salome for the first time with Maria Ewing as Salome in Peter Hall direction; it was tremendous. Ewing was born for this role.







I've also read the discussion and can't wrap my head around the statement that Salome is only entertainment, some kind of shallow lustful piece. After all the melodrama of the Italian operas of the 19th century I have been watching lately Salome is finally something more. For me the crucial part of the interpretation of the opera is this part of the libretto:

_Third Jew
God is at no time ever hidden. He showeth Himself at all times and in all creation. *God is in evil, even as in perfection*.

Fourth Jew
You should not talk such nonsense, for that is a highly dangerous dogma from Alexandria. And the Greeks there are Gentiles.

Fifth Jew
No one can tell us how God works. All his ways are so mysterious. We can but bow down our heads and obey His wise commandments, for God has much power._


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Artran said:


> Yesterday I saw Salome for the first time with Maria Ewing as Salome in Peter Hall direction; it was tremendous. Enwig was born for this role.
> View attachment 175485​
> I've also read the discussion and can't wrap my head around the statement that Salome is only entertainment, some kind of shallow lustful piece. After all the melodrama of the Italian operas of the 19th century I have been watching lately Salome is finally something more. For me the crucial part of the interpretation of the opera is this part of the libretto:
> 
> ...


How would you say this exchange between incidental characters helps us interpret the opera?


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## Artran (Sep 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> How would you say this exchange between incidental characters helps us interpret the opera?


What these characters say isn't just some kind of incidental noise. Oscar Wild tells us that we should question the moral tension between sexuality and religion, between beauty and evil. And that is what Salome is about. Writers do this quite often, actually. They hide clues in the background, they don't want to throw them at our faces directly. This moral tension is on top of that very common in the decadent literature of Joris Karl Huysmans or Czech writer Jiří Karásek ze Lvovic. You can also see that Salome isn't some kind of shallow kitch in the language:

_Salome
I will not stay there. I cannot stay there. But why, why is Herod always leering at me, with his repulsive mole’s eyes, under those flickering eyelids? It’s so curious that my own mother’s husband looks at me so. Out here the air is so sweet. Here I breathe freely… In there are gathered Jews from old Jerusalem, who decry their neighbours’ foolish rites and tear each other to shreds and tatters. Secretive, crafty Egyptians, and ill-mannered acrimonious Romans with their barbaric voices. Oh, how I do detest those Romans! _

This is just pure poetry. And it also shows the deeper psychology and motives of Salome. She is pursued by her ill-fated ancestry.

I don't have a problem dismissing decadent movement from the standpoint of taste but to say, that it's shallow is a big underestimation.

Btw, do you know Wild's fairytale Selfish Giant? If you don't I highly recommend reading it. Is very short.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Artran said:


> Yesterday I saw Salome for the first time with Maria Ewing as Salome in Peter Hall direction; it was tremendous. Enwig was born for this role.
> View attachment 175485​


I saw Catherine Malfitano in Amsterdam years ago, in my humble opinion even better .😇


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Artran said:


> What these characters say isn't just some kind of incidental noise. Oscar Wild tells us that we should question the moral tension between sexuality and religion, between beauty and evil. And that is what Salome is about. Writers do this quite often, actually. They hide clues in the background, they don't want to throw them at our faces directly. This moral tension is on top of that very common in the decadent literature of Joris Karl Huysmans or Czech writer Jiří Karásek ze Lvovic. You can also see that Salome isn't some kind of shallow kitch in the language:
> 
> _Salome
> I will not stay there. I cannot stay there. But why, why is Herod always leering at me, with his repulsive mole’s eyes, under those flickering eyelids? It’s so curious that my own mother’s husband looks at me so. Out here the air is so sweet. Here I breathe freely… In there are gathered Jews from old Jerusalem, who decry their neighbours’ foolish rites and tear each other to shreds and tatters. Secretive, crafty Egyptians, and ill-mannered acrimonious Romans with their barbaric voices. Oh, how I do detest those Romans! _
> ...


Interesting observations. The text is indeed poetic, but honestly I really don't see how a young woman's perverse lust for a prophet tells us anything important about sex, religion, or the relationship between them. Despite the fact that the object of Salome's lust is identified as a religious figure, religion doesn't figure in the story in a meaningful way, and sex figures in it only as aberrant and repulsive (although in the music it's tons of fun). Perhaps there's a life lesson I'm not picking up on - or perhaps the play of textual imagery is fundamentally an ornamental aestheticism - an expression of artistic decadence. No one watching or listening to Salome writhing on the floor and extolling Jokanaan's mouth needs or wants to ask whether God is "in" the proceedings - or exists at all - although the spectacle may have given heart attacks to some religious folk who thought they were just going to see a Bible story.

Salome strikes me as typical of Strauss's literary/philosophical approach to opera - namely, there's often more going on verbally than can ever be expressed musically, or be put across to an audience. This might seem rather German, or at least post-Wagnerian, although Wagner's own practice was to develop words and music together so that verbal ideation would, as in most operatic collaborations between composer and wordsmith, actually be expressed musically in a way that could be felt without close study of the text. I feel a powerfully ambiguous merging of, and tension between, sexuality and spirituality in the music of _Parsifal _- or _Tristan_, for that matter - but not in the flashily ornamental score of _Salome. _Does anyone think that the motif of Jokanaan expresses anything authentically spiritual, as against the irresistible sensuality of Salome's music? There's no doubt on which side Strauss's heart and talents lay. I doubt that feelings about the relationship of spirituality and sensuality ever troubled the practical-minded composer for a moment, and so he was the ideal candidate to create a fantastic show that simply invites us to relish a playful spectacle in which purportedly deep questions can be painted on as provocative ornaments like glittering lipstick and blue eye shadow on a drag queen. I don't question his genius for a moment, but - as with most of his works, including _Elektra_ - I question his profundiy.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Interesting observations. The text is indeed poetic, but honestly I really don't see how a young woman's perverse lust for a prophet tells us anything important about sex, religion, or the relationship between them. Despite the fact that the object of Salome's lust is identified as a religious figure, religion doesn't figure in the story in a meaningful way, and sex figures in it only as aberrant and repulsive (although in the music it's tons of fun). Perhaps there's a life lesson I'm not picking up on - or perhaps the play of textual imagery is fundamentally an ornamental aestheticism - an expression of artistic decadence. No one watching or listening to Salome writhing on the floor and extolling Jokanaan's mouth needs or wants to ask whether God is "in" the proceedings - or exists at all - although the spectacle may have given heart attacks to some religious folk who thought they were just going to see a Bible story.
> 
> (...)
> 
> I don't question his genius for a moment, but - as with most of his works, including _Elektra_ - I question his profundiy.


Salome isn't as profound as Parsifal, but few operas are. However, I think that Salome's observation about her father's lustful glances of her reveals that there is something deeper going on. We are presented with a simple dichotomy between unbridled lust represented by Herod (which is interestingly and unpredictably depicted as weak and effeminate by Strauss in his music). We then have the uber masculine music given to the religious Jokanaan which is equally ridiculous. Salome's extremism seems almost a sensible middle path with these two on either side of her. Yet, she's not a victim either. There's something miraculous about this implausible narration, but the beauty of Wilde's poetry and Strauss' music make what appears as a shabby, little shocker (to borrow a phrase) seem a scenario that is all too real. Strauss' genius lies in making Salome as repulsive as she is seductive. Wagner uses the length of works such as Parsifal to cover much ground, whereas Strauss and Puccini in Salome and Tosca provide a single hit of dramatic lyric effect. What they lack in philosophical and psychological depth, they make up for in emotional and dramatic depth.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Salome isn't as profound as Parsifal, but few operas are. However, I think that Salome's observation about her father's lustful glances of her reveals that there is something deeper going on. We are presented with a simple dichotomy between unbridled lust represented by Herod (which is interestingly and unpredictably depicted as weak and effeminate by Strauss in his music). We then have the uber masculine music given to the religious Jokanaan which is equally ridiculous. Salome's extremism seems almost a sensible middle path with these two on either side of her. Yet, she's not a victim either. There's something miraculous about this implausible narration, but the beauty of Wilde's poetry and Strauss' music make what appears as a shabby, little shocker (to borrow a phrase) seem a scenario that is all too real. Strauss' genius lies in making Salome as repulsive as she is seductive. Wagner uses the length of works such as Parsifal to cover much ground, whereas Strauss and Puccini in Salome and Tosca provide a single hit of dramatic lyric effect. What they lack in philosophical and psychological depth, they make up for in emotional and dramatic depth.
> 
> N.


I don't find much "depth" in an exhibition of different degrees and varieties of sexual lust. Nor do I find what you've said quite coherent. How does the beauty of Wilde's poetry make for a scenario that's "all too real"? I'd say that what it and Strauss's music do is elevate something perverse, sordid, and unfortunately all too real, into something less real but aesthetically titillating. Art is quite capable of presenting repugnant realities in a manner that's embellished and sanitized by aesthetics and thus making those realities possible to contemplate with pleasure. I don't think the mere fact of doing that well is a guarantee of "depth," which is a rather slippery term with several meanings that tend to get confused. _Salome_ - and _Tosca_ too - are highly effective works of art, but I think their effectiveness is in part a result of the very narrowness of their expressive goals and of their composers' ability to exploit to the full a limited range of ideas. They aim at and hit a precisely defined target; they don't seek to resonate and radiate outward into larger realms of human experience and leave us asking who, what, or where, unless perhaps we've lived very sheltered lives and never imagined that such things could exist in the world.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't find much "depth" in an exhibition of different degrees and varieties of sexual lust. Nor do I find what you've said quite coherent. How does the beauty of Wilde's poetry make for a scenario that's "all too real"? I'd say that what it and Strauss's music do is elevate something perverse, sordid, and unfortunately all too real, into something less real but aesthetically titillating. Art is quite capable of presenting repugnant realities in a manner that's embellished and sanitized by aesthetics and thus making those realities possible to contemplate with pleasure. I don't think the mere fact of doing that well is a guarantee of "depth," which is a rather slippery term with several meanings that tend to get confused. _Salome_ - and _Tosca_ too - are highly effective works of art, but I think their effectiveness is in part a result of the very narrowness of their expressive goals and of their composers' ability to exploit to the full a limited range of ideas. They aim at and hit a precisely defined target; they don't seek to resonate and radiate outward into larger realms of human experience and leave us asking who, what, or where, unless perhaps we've lived very sheltered lives and never imagined that such things could exist in the world.


I very much agree with the second half of what you have written. When I mentioned depth, I meant emotional depth. It's best summed up by the idea that whilst earthly love is not eternal, to two people in love it feels as if it is. The exact point I was making was that Parsifal (and other works) may 'radiate out into larger realms of human experience', but works such as Tosca and Salome that aim at and hit a precisely defined target have a different type of depth. See it as the arrow being so perfectly aimed and launched that it goes deep within the target up to the fletching. Or horizontal versus vertical depth.

I just think that Salome and Parsifal are such different artworks it's almost impossible to compare them other than to point out this exact thing.

N.


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## Artran (Sep 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I really don't see how a young woman's perverse lust for a prophet tells us anything important about sex, religion, or the relationship between them.


The question is, why Salome is acting perversely when she is confronted with Jokanaan's moralizing? To reduce her acting to perversion without motive is blindfolded.



Woodduck said:


> Despite the fact that the object of Salome's lust is identified as a religious figure, religion doesn't figure in the story in a meaningful way, and sex figures in it only as aberrant and repulsive (although in the music it's tons of fun).


I don't agree. Jokanaan plays the role of moral conscience. He is a proxy between God and human moral laws. He is also closer to the God of the Old Testament. And note that Salome is able to kiss Jokanaan (i.e. God) only when he is dead.



Woodduck said:


> Perhaps there's a life lesson I'm not picking up on - or perhaps the play of textual imagery is fundamentally an ornamental aestheticism - an expression of artistic decadence.


Yes, in my opinion, you must approach to Salome from the point of style and what this style wanted to achieve with this ornamental aestheticism.



Woodduck said:


> No one watching or listening to Salome writhing on the floor and extolling Jokanaan's mouth needs or wants to ask whether God is "in" the proceedings - or exists at all - although the spectacle may have given heart attacks to some religious folk who thought they were just going to see a Bible story.


Not true. At least I want to ask these questions and I suppose I'm not alone. Salome didn't want to shock some petty religious burgeois. It's too complex on many levels for that.



Woodduck said:


> Salome strikes me as typical of Strauss's literary/philosophical approach to opera - namely, there's often more going on verbally than can ever be expressed musically, or be put across to an audience.


Your reproach is related to your appreciation of decadent aesthetics. I don't persuade you to love it, but you should admit, that many authors find it important for their artistic expression (so, no entertainment at all).



Woodduck said:


> This might seem rather German, or at least post-Wagnerian, although Wagner's own practice was to develop words and music together so that verbal ideation would, as in most operatic collaborations between composer and wordsmith, actually be expressed musically in a way that could be felt without close study of the text. I feel a powerfully ambiguous merging of, and tension between, sexuality and spirituality in the music of Parsifal - or Tristan, for that matter - but not in the flashily ornamental score of Salome.


Alas, I cannot comment on Wagner, He is from a small set of significant composers I still don't know properly (but yesterday I watched Der fliegende Hollander). Anyway, I suspect you shouldn't compare two stylistic periods. Or at least you should be careful.



Woodduck said:


> Does anyone think that the motif of Jokanaan expresses anything authentically spiritual, as against the irresistible sensuality of Salome's music?


Yes, as I said above I think he represents a religious conscience.



Woodduck said:


> There's no doubt on which side Strauss's heart and talents lay. I doubt that feelings about the relationship of spirituality and sensuality ever troubled the practical-minded composer for a moment, and so he was the ideal candidate to create a fantastic show that simply invites us to relish a playful spectacle in which purportedly deep questions can be painted on as provocative ornaments like glittering lipstick and blue eye shadow on a drag queen. I don't question his genius for a moment, but - as with most of his works, including Elektra - I question his profundity.


You know, even drag queens have feelings and want to express themselves. And decadence was always about an expression of manneristic life surrounded by an excess of art. Maybe it's not an accident that many decadent authors were also homosexuals (Wild, Huysmans, Karásek ze Lvovic, Lorrain, etc.). And to find God inside this "amoral" life brings us nearer to Salome's meaning.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

May I suggest the fabulously campy but surprisingly effective movie Salome's Last Dance where Victorian prostitutes perform Wilde's play Salome for him and Bosie. The words really come alive with the Cockney accents . Over the top but it greatly entertained me. Ken Russell directed. It had some really gorgeous music throughout. The blind teenage girl who plays Salome is radiant in the part. One wishes she was a dramatic soprano.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Artran said:


> The question is, why Salome is acting perversely when she is confronted with Jokanaan's moralizing? Jokanaan plays the role of moral conscience. He is a proxy between God and human moral laws. He is also closer to the God of the Old Testament.


Let's review the story of _Salome.

A girl raised by a promiscuous mother and a father with incest fantasies in a milieu of unbridled sensual indulgence encounters a moralizing preacher who denounces her family and way of life. She's naturally fascinated by this alien being who looks like a wild animal, and since sex is her way of relating to the world she lusts after his body. He responds to her advances with denunciations, and his resistance intensifies her desire to possess him. Her father's promise to give her anything she wants in exchange for a strip tease gives her the means to possess Jokanaan's body in a form that can no longer resist and denounce her. _

Evidently, you believe that there is something deeply meaningful we can glean from this sordid tale. I don't see it. If the opera is intended to deal in any significant way with religion, morality or spirituality, or with how sex may relate to them, I think it fails. But I don't think it fails. I think it succeeds very well, because I don't believe Strauss had any such high- minded intent.



> Salome is able to kiss Jokanaan (i.e. God) only when he is dead.


Well, of course she had to kill him to possess him. But why do you think that Salome's kissing the head of the prophet is equivalent to kissing a dead God? Do you think her lusting after Jokanaan was a desire for God? Or that her decision to kill him was a desire to kill God? I don't. Nothing in her nature suggests an interest in Jokanaan's religion, except as a baffling impediment to her sexual satisfaction.



> ...decadence was always about an expression of manneristic life surrounded by an excess of art. Maybe it's not an accident that many decadent authors were also homosexuals (Wild, Huysmans, Karásek ze Lvocic, Lorrain, etc.). And *to find God inside this "amoral" life brings us nearer to Salome's meaning.*


No one "finds God" in _Salome_ - not literally, not figuratively, not symbolically. God's supposed representative sits in his cell, preaching pompously and uselessly to music devoid of humanity or spirituality, and then gets decapitated to satisfy the perverse cravings of a pubescent nymphette who couldn't get satisfaction any other way. Her own violent death was the final shock of sensation in a work of art devoted to the elevation of sensation above all other human values.


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## Artran (Sep 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Let's review the story of _Salome.
> 
> A girl raised by a promiscuous mother and a father with incest fantasies in a milieu of unbridled sensual self-indulgence encounters a moralizing preacher who denounces her family and way of life. She's naturally fascinated by this alien being who looks like a wild animal, and since sex is her way of relating to the world she lusts after his body. He responds to her advances with denunciations, and his resistance intensifies her desire to possess him. Her father's promise to give her anything she wants in exchange for a strip tease gives her the means to possess Jokanaan's body in a form that can no longer resist and denounce her. _
> 
> ...


Seriously, have you read the fairytale Selfish Giant by Wild? The relationship between morals and religion is very strong in the decadent movement. Huysmans converted to catholicism later in his life. It's not something we should take lightly.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Artran said:


> Seriously, have you read the fairytale Selfish Giant by Wild? The relationship between art and religion is very strong in the decadent movement. Huysmans converted to catholicism later in his life. It's not something we should take lightly.


I haven't read that, but I'm not talking about the decadent movement. I'm merely looking at an opera by Richard Strauss, that conservative, businesslike, card-playing bourgeois gentilhomme who bragged about setting a knife and fork to music. The slinky, silvery, shivery score of _Salome _makes perfectly clear what Strauss was interested in in Wilde's play, and it sure as hell wasn't God.

The relationship between art, religion, sex, and morality occupied the minds of artists well before the decadent movement. Wagner dealt with it - actually dealt with it in dramatic/emotional/musical terms, as opposed to using it as an excuse for a strip tease with a severed head - as early as _Tannhauser_. That opera _begins_ with an orgy. It doesn't _end_ with one.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

This New Yorker article by Alex Ross about the opera ends by claiming that “as an angel of destruction, [Salome] is worthy of respect” because she has “shattered her stepfather’s corrupt and hypocritical regime.” When I first read _that_ I was a bit shocked. Salome, the agent of morality...


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Monsalvat said:


> This New Yorker article by Alex Ross about the opera ends by claiming that “as an angel of destruction, [Salome] is worthy of respect” because she has “shattered her stepfather’s corrupt and hypocritical regime.” When I first read _that_ I was a bit shocked. Salome, the agent of morality...


Nice article. Always liked Alex Ross.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Monsalvat said:


> This New Yorker article by Alex Ross about the opera ends by claiming that “as an angel of destruction, [Salome] is worthy of respect” because she has “shattered her stepfather’s corrupt and hypocritical regime.” When I first read _that_ I was a bit shocked. Salome, the agent of morality...


Good grief. The lengths to which people will go to justify glorified kitsch as high culture! Do we really have to rationalize our primitive pleasures? Wagner has "redemption by love," so Strauss has to have "redemption by necrophilic lust"?

Sheesh!


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I have always had difficulty getting into *Richard Strauss*'s oeuvre. Since I am such an opera lover, I thought surely I could find something there. But it certainly wasn't with _Salome_ or _Elektra_. _Rosenkavalier_ is the closest I've come to being able to stick with a work of his, but even so it was hard for me to get past the opening scene.

I watched a production of Salome at some point and was turned off by the narrative and the music was over wrought, IMO.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Nice article. Always liked Alex Ross.


I like him too. So what on earth is he high on here...?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SanAntone said:


> I have always had difficulty getting into *Richard Strauss*'s oeuvre. Since I am such an opera lover, I thought surely I could find something there. But it certainly wasn't with _Salome_ or _Elektra_. _Rosenkavalier_ is the closest I've come to being able to stick with a work of his, but even so it was hard for me to get past the opening scene.
> 
> I watched a production of Salome at some point and was turned off by the narrative and the music was over wrought, IMO.


In his operas I find Strauss a composer of great moments interspersed with much musical ado about little. His libretti are wordy, and his music is brilliantly crafted and often sensuously beautiful but very busy. Sometimes it just seems like empty bustle. _Salome_ is pretty concise, but even so I feel as if the orgasmic final scene is what really matters and that most of the opera is foreplay.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I like him too. So what on earth is he high on here...?


Must be Strauss' music...

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Must be Strauss' music...
> 
> N.


Just what the music of _Salome_ is supposed to do.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Good grief. The lengths to which people will go to justify glorified kitsch as high culture! Do we really have to rationalize our primitive pleasures?


kinda reminds of us of DavidA. Doesn't it?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> kinda reminds of us of DavidA. Doesn't it?


DavidA who?


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Monsalvat said:


> This New Yorker article by Alex Ross about the opera ends by claiming that “as an angel of destruction, [Salome] is worthy of respect” because she has “shattered her stepfather’s corrupt and hypocritical regime.” When I first read _that_ I was a bit shocked. Salome, the agent of morality...


I am Herodias.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Francasacchi said:


> I am Herodias.


Really? According to Klingsor, Herodias was reincarnated as Kundry. This is very suspicious...


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## Artran (Sep 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I haven't read that, but I'm not talking about the decadent movement.


But the decadent movement should be factored in. The opera doesn't exist in a vacuum. Wild's libretto is an integral part of it. It's not only about Strauss music.



Woodduck said:


> Richard Strauss, that conservative, businesslike, card-playing bourgeois gentilhomme who bragged about setting a knife and fork to music.


He was also someone who knew deeply Schopenhauer and Nietzsche. He wasn't some kind of genial primitive. Although he was often joking about himself.



Woodduck said:


> The slinky, silvery, shivery score of Salome makes perfectly clear what Strauss was interested in Wilde's play, and it sure as hell wasn't God.


Sorry, but you aren't able to see inside his head. What I see are parts of the libretto that explicitly speak about God. (In what sense, that's another question).



Woodduck said:


> The relationship between art, religion, sex, and morality occupied the minds of artists well before the decadent movement.


Sure thing. I didn't say that decadence came first, that would be absurd, I only stressed that for the decadence movement these themes were very important.



Woodduck said:


> Wagner dealt with it - actually dealt with it in dramatic/emotional/musical terms, as opposed to using it as an excuse for a strip tease with a severed head - as early as Tannhauser. That opera begins with an orgy. It doesn't end with one.


You should forget about Wagner when you deal with Salome for a while...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Artran said:


> But the decadent movement should be factored in. The opera doesn't exist in a vacuum. Wild's libretto is an integral part of it. It's not only about Strauss music.


Really, how integral to the actual effect and meaning of _Salome_ are the verbal exravagances of Wilde's play? The essential question is: what aspects of Wilde's play does Strauss consider important or interesting enough to express through music, and what aspects is he personally capable of expressing musically? Librettos can be full of words and ideas that a composer chooses not to focus on, or for which he has no adequate musical language, or that simply don't register as meaningful in performance (if the audience can hear them at all). What can and will register is the expressive quality of the score. There's a good reason why it's called Strauss's _Salome,_ not Wilde's. We can't understand an opera by reading it as literature. It isn't.



> What I see are parts of the libretto that explicitly speak about God.


I see them too. Anyone can _see_ them. But what we see in the libretto matters only if we can hear it expressed in the music. Does the score of _Salome_ have anything - anything at all - to say about God?



> You should forget about Wagner when you deal with Salome for a while...


Why? Wagner is a composer who didn't set to music literary essays filled with picturesque imagery and abstract ideas to which he was unable to give eloquent expression. His characters live out his dramatic themes, feel them deeply, and express them powerfully. He said that to undrstand his work the first and ultimate source of understanding was the music - that the operas were to be understood through feeling, not through abstract thought. He said this because he understood the primacy of music in the combined art form which is opera. But this is something all the greatest opera composers understood, and it's as true of _Don Giovanni_ and _Otello_ as it is of _Die Meistersinger_ or _Parsifal. _Even Debussy, setting a pre-existing play verbatim and taking extreme care that the words were audible, knew that everything essential about the drama had to be said in the music.

There is no way to tell from Strauss's music for _Salome_ that questions of morality or theology were important or interesting to him. As I (and not only I) have pointed out, Jokanaan, the supposed "holy man" and representative of God, is given only a sort of faux-heroic, Hollywoodish movie theme quite devoid of any spiritual depth or human significance. He is drab, stiff cardboard, he presents no compelling alternative to the decadence around him, and thus he amounts only to a dramatic device allowing Salome to enact a dance of ever-growing lust, a half-hour of foreplay leading to her final necrophilic orgasm. In the lurid, shivering power of that finale we hear what all the rest is for - what Strauss really cared about.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> There's a good reason why it's called Strauss's _Salome,_ not Wilde's.


That's how we casually call it, but formally, it's "Strauss's setting of Wilde's libretto, Salome". Similar to how we casually call Bernstein's interpretation of Beethoven's 9th, "Bernstein's 9th", in the context of discussing Bernstein's interpretation in comparison with other conductors'.



Woodduck said:


> But this is something all the greatest opera composers understood, and it's as true of _Don Giovanni_ and _Otello_ as it is of _Die Meistersinger_ or _Parsifal. _Even Debussy


I don't think Mozart thought musical drama the same way as the later guys.
"I would say that in an opera the poetry must be altogether the obedient daughter of the music. Why are Italian comic operas popular everywhere - in spite of the miserable libretti? … Because the music reigns supreme, and when one listens to it all else is forgotten." -Mozart, in letter to his father, October 13, 1781




I think there is a reason why his operas were generic in theme in the context of his place and time - for example, Una Cosa Rara (composed by Vicente Martín y Soler and premiered in Vienna in 1786, with far greater success than Le Nozze di Figaro), which Mozart quotes in the dining scene, involves Prince Don Giovanni seducing women.


hammeredklavier said:


> ", first performed in Vienna in 1785, has certain similarities to Cosi Fan Tutte, which was premiered five years later. Both operas deal with the sexual uncertainties of two sisters when faced with lovers who are in some sense transformed - in Salieri's case by the magician Trofonio, in whose eponymous grotto the two men magically exchange personalities."





hammeredklavier said:


> "The School of Jealousy" (1778), a Da Ponte opera of theme similar to Mozart's "School for Lovers".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> ...formally, it's "Strauss's setting of Wilde's libretto, Salome".


Many lines from the play were cut from the libretto. "Strauss's _Salome_" is the most truthful designation for exactly the reason I was at pains to explain: the effect and meaning of the opera as experienced depends primarily on the score. And note that the opera is basic rep, while Wilde's play is rarely performed.



> Similar to how we casually call Bernstein's interpretation of Beethoven's 9th, "Bernstein's 9th", in the context of discussing Bernstein's interpretation in comparison with other conductors'.


The case is not similar. "Bernstein's 9th" is merely a performance. The parallel would be "Solti's _Salome._"



> I don't think Mozart thought musical drama the same way as the later guys.
> "I would say that in an opera the poetry must be altogether the obedient daughter of the music. Why are Italian comic operas popular everywhere - in spite of the miserable libretti? … Because the music reigns supreme, and when one listens to it all else is forgotten." -Mozart, in letter to his father, October 13, 1781


The primacy of music, understood by all great opera composers, is exactly the point I was making - in fact, the heart of my entire argument. Mozart is 100% correct, and Bellini, Donizetti, Verdi, Puccini, Strauss, Berg, Britten and everybody else who matters would agree with him. Do you acually read what I work so hard to say, or are you so eager to dispute that you skip that step?


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## Artran (Sep 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Really, how integral to the actual effect and meaning of _Salome_ are the verbal exravagances of Wilde's play? The essential question is: what aspects of Wilde's play does Strauss consider important or interesting enough to express through music, and what aspects is he personally capable of expressing musically? Librettos can be full of words and ideas that a composer chooses not to focus on, or for which he has no adequate musical language, or that simply don't register as meaningful in performance (if the audience can hear them at all). What can and will register is the expressive quality of the score. There's a good reason why it's called Strauss's _Salome,_ not Wilde's. We can't understand an opera by reading it as literature. It isn't.


First of all, I've never said that Strauss music isn't important for understanding the opera. On the other hand, I find completely ludicrous to dismiss the libretto as something secondary (yeah, tell that to Britten). Sure, it's not original Wild's play but there's still much of his poetry, imagination, and meanings. Salome is both Strauss' and Wild's work. This whole discussion stems from your statement that Salome is "just entertainment, so don't bother thinking about it". And when I point to the interesting parts of the libretto you say that's "literary essay filled with picturesque imagery and abstract ideas to which he [i.e. Strauss] was unable to give eloquent expression" (which, when I ignore how condescendingly it sounds, doesn't look like "just entertainment" at all to me), for which reason no one will pay attention to it. Probably because we're unable to read the libretto before, during, or after the opera, when we don't understand properly some of its parts...

You're basically concentrating only on the plot stripped from its symbolic meanings and you're purposely making it look like some kind of vulgar kitsch (which isn't).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Mozart is 100% correct


_"... the music reigns supreme, and when one listens to it *all else is forgotten*..."
"... no fears need be entertained as to the applause - even of the ignorant."_
Did Wagner think the same way?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Artran said:


> First of all, I've never said that Strauss music isn't important for understanding the opera. On the other hand, I find completely ludicrous to dismiss the libretto as something secondary (yeah, tell that to Britten).


The libretto of an opera - a drama sung rather than spoken - is almost _always_ secondary to the music, unless the composer is just not up to his job. That job is to tell us through music what the words of the libretto should mean to us as spectators and listeners. Music's power can radically transform the meaning and effect of the words set to it; a poem by Ruckert set by Mahler is in a major way no longer a poem of Ruckert but a new entity in which the words of Ruckert are a starting point for whatever Mahler has felt and wishes to tell us. Music quite naturally takes possession of poetry and makes of it a vessel for the wine of new meanings, and when that happens the author of the poem has been demoted. In opera, the dominance of music is typically even greater than in song; there, the words typically occupy not second place but third in prominence, after music and stage action.



> Sure, it's not original Wilde's play but there's still much of his poetry, imagination, and meanings. Salome is both Strauss' and Wild's work. This whole discussion stems from your statement that Salome is "just entertainment, so don't bother thinking about it". And when I point to the interesting parts of the libretto you say that's "literary essay filled with picturesque imagery and abstract ideas to which he [i.e. Strauss] was unable to give eloquent expression" (which, when I ignore how condescendingly it sounds, doesn't look like "just entertainment" at all to me), for which reason no one will pay attention to it. Probably because we're unable to read the libretto before, during, or after the opera, when we don't understand properly some of its parts...


My answer to this is that the poetry of a libretto and the intentions of its author have value as operatic material only to the extent that the composer can treat them in a musically compelling way. No one doubts that Strauss has treated the intense sensuality and morbid lust of Salome and her decadent milieu effectively. The question is what other themes possibly hinted at in the libretto similarly leap across the foolights of the opera house to alter our thoughts and feelings as we watch and listen. This question can't be answered in the library; it can't be answered by pointing again and again at Wilde's play. What may, in a performance of a play, come across as a significant discussion of ideas may, when sung, scarcely register at all, depending on how they're set to music in the context of a larger musical/theatrical work.

From your previous remarks, I glean that you think religious and moral issues are meaningfully raised and treated in the opera. Well, if moral conflicts are to have any dramatic value, all the contending forces and principles need compelling representation. My view is that Strauss fails to give us that - or, perhaps, just didn't care to try. The libretto suggests the potential or theoretical existence of moral issues, as well as some sort of complexity in the relationship between Salome and Jokanaan, but such possibilities remain unfulfilled in either the dramaturgy or the music, and amount to a nothingburger in practice. If Strauss's cardboard "holy man" is really the best he could do with that concept, I don't blame Salome for rejecting his righteous scolding and finding his severed head more worth her while.



> You're basically concentrating only on the plot stripped from its symbolic meanings and you're purposely making it look like some kind of vulgar kitsch (which isn't).


Symbolic meanings? It's perfectly fine to admire Oscar Wilde's work, study his play in detail, savor his poetic imagery, and think about God and morality, or whatever. But I'll bet the farm that no one has ever been lured to watch or listen to this opera by either the character or the music of John the Baptist.

Kitsch? I'll go out on a limb and call _Salome_ the greatest piece of operatic kitsch - or opera-porn (take your pick) - ever written.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> _"... the music reigns supreme, and when one listens to it *all else is forgotten*..."
> "... no fears need be entertained as to the applause - even of the ignorant."_
> Did Wagner think the same way?


Not sure what way you mean.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I’m going with opera-porn. 😱


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Good grief. The lengths to which people will go to justify glorified kitsch as high culture! Do we really have to rationalize our primitive pleasures? Wagner has "redemption by love," so Strauss has to have "redemption by necrophilic lust"?
> 
> Sheesh!


The libretto to Salome is basically an operatic version of what people would later recognize as exploitation or grindhouse films. While Strauss music has merit, I think praising the libretto as "high art" or religiously moving would mean according similar praise to Cannibal Holocaust or A Serbian Film...in other words, a tad ridiculous.

And honestly most productions botch the whole affair, either by making the dance even more perverse (simulated **** fisting) or by having Salome look like she's having an epileptic seizure. I don't expect singers to fully strip, but I know dancing sexy is within their means, so why do they just thrash around and act silly?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't know if I mentioned it but Salome's Last Dance by Ken Russell is twisted and fun and very gay. I watched it quite a number of times. Workers at a brothel present Wilde's play to him and Bosie in their parlor. Glenda Jackson is beyond fabulous. The words are so beautiful to the play.


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