# Cyclic form in classical works



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I read somewhere that the classical-period composers generally avoided referring directly in one movement of a work to any part of another. This seems to have been because it was considered kind of “cheating,” a cheap way to achieve unity in a multi-movement work. Nevertheless, Haydn seems to have done this once (can’t remember in what symphony) and Beethoven of course in both his 5th and 9th symphonies.

Question: Are there other examples before Berlioz came along? Symphonies or otherwise?


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

An example from Mozart is the Mass in C Major, K. 220, where in the Agnus Dei ("Dona nobis pacem") he reverts to the music of the Kyrie, which contributes to the Mass’ overall musical unity.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

In the Renaissance there was an entire genre of sacred music called "cyclic masses" where each of the sections is built on the melodic motif introduced in the opening Kyrie.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

More examples from the classical era are Boccherini's D Minor symphony from his Op.12 collection, where the composer creates a cyclic form by using the same slow introduction for the first and the third movement, and his symphony in D Minor, Op. 37, which has extensive cyclic recurrences throughout with elements of the four bar introduction returning in the minore sections of the Minuetto, Andante amoroso and Finale.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

— CPE Bach's Concerto in C minor, Wq 43#4 is fully cyclic. The first movement comes back in the end with quotes from an internal movement too.

— Haydn's Symphony 46 in B major brings back a scherzo theme in the finale in the way Beethoven's Fifth does.

— There are several other examples by CPE Bach that are cyclic in more subtle ways — subtle enough that some people won't accept them.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Cherubini I believe used this in one of his string quartets, I think No. 6?


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

J. M. Kraus's c-minor "Symphonie funébre" VB 148.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Cherubini I believe used this in one of his string quartets, I think No. 6?


You're correct. Midway through the last movement of no. 6 there are quotations of the first 3 movements.


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

I'd say dozens of Classical-era works have cyclic elements, though most are very basic. Sticking to symphonies:

--Wanhal's A major symphony A9 (ca. 1776) -- the end of the finale (click) recapitulates the opening of the first movement (click) with leaner orchestration

--Haydn's D major symphony No. 31 (1765) -- at the start it's all like TOOT toottoot toot-toot and in the finale coda it's all TOOT toottoot toot-toot again... (click) vs (click)

--As well as the Boccherini works Rick mentioned there are cyclic elements in his C minor Symphony Op. 41 (1771); also in Reicha's E-flat major Symphony Op. 41 (1803). But a more full-blooded example is

--Dittersdorf's A major symphony gA-11 (1788) -- the finale is a rondo whose episodes recapitulate material from the first three movements (click)

Somewhat later, you'll find more sophisticated cyclic writing in

--Méhul's E major Symphony No. 4 (1810) -- the slow introduction to the first movement (click) being developed in the allegro finale (click)

In Classical-era chamber music there are many more examples. Then there's cyclic writing in Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann....


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Although not strictly "Classical", JS Bach Art of the Fugue is an ultimate cyclic composition.

All movements in Mozart's vespers are linked by the idea of recapitulating with Minor Doxology ("Gloria Patri"). Rhythmically they share the common concept: one long (or multiple slurred) note(s) followed a shorter note, "Glo-----ri-a..."

Dixit dominus ( 2:51 )
Confitebor tibi ( 8:14 )
Beatus vir ( 13:03 )
Laudate pueri ( 16:42 )
Laudate dominum ( 20:09 )
Magnificat anima ( 27:09 )






Dixit dominus ( 2:54 )
Confitebor tibi ( 7:27 )
Beatus vir ( 12:09 )
Laudate pueri ( 15:42 )
Laudate dominum ( 19:19 )
Magnificat anima ( 24:51 )






Also the descending chromatic passages in the second themes of the outer movements of the 40th symphony exhibit cyclic tendencies.

[ 0:54 ]
[ 19:30 ]

54s
19m30s







hammeredklavier said:


> (CPE Bach does it before the final fugue of his Magnificat: VIII. Chor. Gloria Patri et Filio) Mozart's Requiem is a kind of a cyclic mass, with the Lutheran hymn motif, "When My Final Hour is At Hand" (D-C#-D-E-F) permeating the entire work. (This is how we know; Mozart's sketch of the Amen fugue ,which was discovered later, was actually intended for the Requiem, and not other works like Kyrie in D minor K341.)
> 
> K220:
> Kyrie
> ...





hammeredklavier said:


> [ 2:36 ]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BobBrines (Jun 14, 2018)

Vivaldi, in the chamber concerto RV101 uses the minor mode largo as the subject for a theme and variations in the third movement, now allegro and in major mode. He uses this technique fairly often.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I read somewhere that the classical-period composers generally avoided referring directly in one movement of a work to any part of another. This seems to have been because it was considered kind of "cheating," a cheap way to achieve unity in a multi-movement work.


Extraordinary. I wonder where you got that idea from. That being said, it's not easy to think of anything, and nothing in Mozart or Haydn is coming to mind. But I bet you my house, my horse and my wife that there is, and anyone who's studied the music would come up with a zillion examples. It'll be at a micro-level.



KenOC said:


> Question: Are there other examples before Berlioz came along? Symphonies or otherwise?


The Second Schubert piano trio maybe. I don't know if it's before Berlioz or not. I don't know anything about symphonies.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mozart seems most obsessive with the fragmentary motif [ 'A-G-F#-E-D' in 16th notes ] in this piece:

Kyrie ( 1:03 )
Gloria ( 4:55 )
Hosanna in excelsis ( 11:51 )
Benedictus ( 12:49 )
Dona nobis pacem ( 16:56 )


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Extraordinary. I wonder where you got that idea from. That being said, it's not easy to think of anything, and nothing in Mozart or Haydn is coming to mind. But I bet you my house, my horse and my wife that there is, and anyone who's studied the music would come up with a zillion examples. It'll be at a micro-level.


As noted above: CPE Bach's Concerto in C minor, Wq 43#4 and Haydn's Symphony no. 46 are cyclic.

An earlier example is CPE's Prussian Sonata no. 3, where the main motive of the first movement is transposed to C# minor and rhythmically altered to create the main motive of the second movement.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> As noted above: CPE Bach's Concerto in C minor, Wq 43#4 and Haydn's Symphony no. 46 are cyclic.
> An earlier example is CPE's Prussian Sonata no. 3, where the main motive of the first movement is transposed to C# minor and rhythmically altered to create the main motive of the second movement.


Also CPE Bach's Magnificat in D major Wq. 215:
I. Chor. Magnificat anima mea Dominum
VIII. Chor. Gloria Patri et Filio


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I just read this note to a new release of Haydn op 20 from The Dudok Quartet



> Of the three quartets featured on this album, perhaps the Quartet in G minor most strongly prefigures the quintessenally classical Opus 33 string quartets that
> Haydn went on to publish nine years
> later. From the outset the first violin
> and viola cut to the chase and the cello
> ...


Something tells me that what Ken said in the OP about cyclic form and classical style needs a bit more nuance and refinement.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

KenOC said:


> I read somewhere that the classical-period composers generally avoided referring directly in one movement of a work to any part of another. This seems to have been because it was considered kind of "cheating," a cheap way to achieve unity in a multi-movement work. Nevertheless, Haydn seems to have done this once (can't remember in what symphony) and Beethoven of course in both his 5th and 9th symphonies.
> 
> Question: Are there other examples before Berlioz came along? Symphonies or otherwise?


I'm surprised and puzzled anyone would say this, as (at least in my opinion) very much the opposite is the case. One of the most famous and (intentionally) unsubtle examples from the classical period is in the introduction to the fourth movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony, which contains direct quotes of the main themes of each of the first three movements.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

fluteman said:


> I'm surprised and puzzled anyone would say this, as (at least in my opinion) very much the opposite is the case. One of the most famous and (intentionally) unsubtle examples from the classical period is in the introduction to the fourth movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony, which contains direct quotes of the main themes of each of the first three movements.


Please note that I specifically excepted Beethoven's 9th (and his 5th of course) in the OP, which you quote though evidently missing those mentions.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

I don't think it's fair to use Mozart's (or anyone else's) Masses as examples, since they're of a different beast and they all do it anyway. It's not at all the same as Beethoven's Fifth or Ninth quoting themselves in other movements.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

AeolianStrains said:


> I don't think it's fair to use Mozart's (or anyone else's) Masses as examples, since they're of a different beast and they all do it anyway.


No. They don't all do it. At least not in the same way. Litanies and Vespers are not "Masses" (Ordinarium or Proprium) in the strict sense. Isn't Beethoven's 9th a kind of liturgical work as well? It uses the choir and orchestra, and incorporates text to praise God. If it was titled "Great Offertory with Three Orchestral Preludes", would you have viewed the work differently?








AeolianStrains said:


> It's not at all the same as Beethoven's Fifth or Ninth quoting themselves in other movements.


Why especially compare them to Beethoven's works? Why not compare CPE Bach's liturgical vocal works with CPE Bach's secular instrumental works, and Mozart's liturgical vocal works with Mozart's secular instrumental works? Why not say "It's not at all the same as all movements of Mozart's string quartet in D minor K421 having the F-A-C-C-C-C motif", for example?


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Please note that I specifically excepted Beethoven's 9th (and his 5th of course) in the OP, which you quote though evidently missing those mentions.


What I meant was, that is only a very famous and obvious example. Mozart, especially in his late chamber music, expertly and subtly wove earlier thematic material into later themes. For example in the D-major viola quintet, K. 593, notice how the opening Adagio introduction is echoed, though in altered form, in the Allegro movement beginning at 19:33 in the performance linked below (immediately before the return to the movement's opening theme). Mozart's skill and sophistication when it comes to thematic development is astounding and nowhere more apparent than in the viola quintets and the string quartets dedicated to Haydn.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

fluteman said:


> I'm surprised and puzzled anyone would say this, as (at least in my opinion) very much the opposite is the case. One of the most famous and (intentionally) unsubtle examples from the classical period is in the introduction to the fourth movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony, which contains direct quotes of the main themes of each of the first three movements.


I must support Ken on this. Cyclic structure in symphonies, sonatas and concertos of the High Classical Era is relatively rare, and when it's present it doesn't tend to have the narrative or dramatic focus of Beethoven's cyclic works or those of the romantics. By contrast it's pretty commonplace in the Romantic Era. The example you cite from the Mozart Quintet strikes me as dubious, probably coincidental (arpeggios are not distinctive melodic statements), and without dramatic significance. Incidentally, there are scholars who have made much of these kind of (what I consider) dubious and coincidental thematic relationships, the most notorious being Rudolph Reti, in his _The Thematic Process in Music_.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> ... Incidentally, there are scholars who have made much of these kind of (what I consider) dubious and coincidental thematic relationships, the most notorious being Rudolph Reti, in his _The Thematic Process in Music_.


One such dubious claim has to do with, again, Beethoven's 9th. The main subsidiary them of the first movement has been said to be "the same as" the Ode to Joy theme in the finale. Well, they both go up and then down, and perhaps some might say that's "the same as." Not me!

More remarkably, clearly thinking ahead, Beethoven snuck the imposing main theme of the Choral's 1st movement into the intro to his 2nd Symphony, almost verbatim and with the mood intact. What a sly dog he was!


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> I must support Ken on this. Cyclic structure in symphonies, sonatas and concertos of the High Classical Era is relatively rare, and when it's present it doesn't tend to have the narrative or dramatic focus of Beethoven's cyclic works or those of the romantics. By contrast it's pretty commonplace in the Romantic Era. The example you cite from the Mozart Quintet strikes me as dubious, probably coincidental (arpeggios are not distinctive melodic statements), and without dramatic significance. Incidentally, there are scholars who have made much of these kind of (what I consider) dubious and coincidental thematic relationships, the most notorious being Rudolph Reti, in his _The Thematic Process in Music_.


Thanks for those comments, though I can't agree with them, except that what you and various musicologists probably mean by "cyclic structure" may well largely or entirely post date Mozart. (But I'm not really interested in what most musicologists have to say, except for those like Charles Rosen who are accomplished musicians themselves and have a thorough understanding of the music.) The kind of thematic relationships Mozart creates can be subtle but are not dubious or coincidental. The example I gave certainly isn't, rather it is one example of Mozart using material from an introduction later on in a work. It is cleverly done, as the introspective Adagio theme is transformed into an energetic and lively Allegro one.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I don't get the logic of some people here. So when Beethoven resorts again and again to writing the same 4-note motif "ba-ba-ba-bam" instead of something better for a melody, he's thinking in terms of grand, dramatic structure, - but when Mozart builds on small motifs, he's just sticking to cliches or old rules, or he's just being pedantic, not at all thinking in terms of drama or expression?

"Notwithstanding the magnitude of the work and the diversity of its musical material, based on the Mass are relatively few thematic elements, which are indicated in the first part of the work - Requiem aeternam. Consider the intonations which make up the topic. It consists of two elements: The first is a tonic to the funeral service, the theme of "breath." 
<Once again on Mozart's Requiem (Issues of Intonation-and-Style Analysis) by Andrey Yu. Sapsuev>

"the Mozart Requiem is full of quotations and references. The main "Requiem" theme, the DNA of which permeates the entire work, is, in fact, a quote. This melody (d-c#-d-e-f) is from a Lutheran hymn, "When My Final Hour is At Hand." If you're trying to figure out how much truth there is to the stories of Mozart's reportedly saying that he was writing "my own Requiem," the fact that the main theme of the entire piece is attached to the words "My Final Hour" rather than his, hers, ours or theirs is worth knowing."
<Mozart Requiem- quotation and meaning by Kenneth Woods>

See how "D-C#-D-E-F" is inverted vertically, horizontally, or altered in different registers

Introitus / Kyrie / Dies irae :








Tuba mirum / Rex tremendae / Recordare :








Confutatis / Lacrimosa / Amen :








Domine jesu / Hostias:








Sanctus / Benedictus / Agnus dei :








Also take a look at:
"The motif of "breath" throughout the development of the melody is transformed, acquiring various emotional shades. In some cases, it serves as an expression of grief, weeping pleas of desperation and fear, determination and greatness"
<Once again on Mozart's Requiem (Issues of Intonation-and-Style Analysis) by Andrey Yu. Sapsuev>


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> I must support Ken on this. Cyclic structure in symphonies, sonatas and concertos of the High Classical Era is relatively rare,


Yes, cyclic structure in Beethoven is also rare. Tell us what's so cyclic about Sonata quasi una fantasia Op.27 No.2 (aka. Moonlight), compared to say, Mozart Fantasie & sonata in C minor K475 & 457, for example?



EdwardBast said:


> and when it's present it doesn't tend to have the narrative or dramatic focus of Beethoven's cyclic works or those of the romantics.


This is an incredibly biased way of looking at the matter. By "Beethoven's cyclic works", you mean his 5th and 9th symphonies + _some other_ works. The 9th symphony is atypical even in Beethoven's oeuvre. The fact still remains - in vocal works, Beethoven doesn't follow cyclic technique as much as Mozart does. Beethoven did not write anything like Bach's Art of the Fugue, or Mozart's Requiem, where cyclic elements extend up to two-digit number of movements.
I'm not sure what you mean by "dramatic focus". Whether or not something is "dramatic" is subjective. 18th century Classicists didn't write 1 hour-long symphonies. We don't judge them by Beethoven's preference for cyclism or drama the same way we don't judge Beethoven's melodies by the way Schubert and Tchaikovsky wrote melodies.



EdwardBast said:


> By contrast it's pretty commonplace in the Romantic Era.


Yes, some are cyclic. But still, many are not. In fact, Romantic composers went both ends of the spectrum. Chopin, for example, experimented with what I would call "anti-cyclic form" in his Op.35 Piano sonata, deliberately going against what was expected for a multi-movement work at the time. Schumann famously remarked Chopin put "four of [his] maddest children under the same roof". Tell us what's so cyclic about his piano sonatas? Or other incredibly well-known works of the era, like Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, for example? Or Mendelssohn's violin concerto?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

KenOC said:


> What a sly dog he was!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> One such dubious claim has to do with, again, Beethoven's 9th. The main subsidiary them of the first movement has been said to be "the same as" the Ode to Joy theme in the finale. Well, they both go up and then down, and perhaps some might say that's "the same as." Not me!


They don't just go up and down. They do it scalewise within a similarly limited compass, and they both alternate tonic and dominant. The main theme of the scherzo contains a scalewise ascent and descent immediately following the downward octave leap, and the trio section of the scherzo has three motifs, which all ascend and/or descend scalewise, the first of them within the same compass as the "Ode to Joy" theme, alternating tonic and dominant. This isn't strictly cyclic, but these thematic resemblances give unity to the work, and you can be sure that when Beethoven was working out the ultimate form of his "Ode" melody he was conscious of them.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Yes, cyclic structure in Beethoven is also rare. Tell us what's so cyclic about Sonata quasi una fantasia Op.27 No.2 (aka. Moonlight), compared to say, Mozart Fantasie & sonata in C minor K475 & 457, for example?
> 
> This is an incredibly biased way of looking at the matter. By "Beethoven's cyclic works", you mean his 5th and 9th symphonies + _some other_ works. The 9th symphony is atypical even in Beethoven's oeuvre. The fact still remains - in vocal works, Beethoven doesn't follow cyclic technique as much as Mozart does. Beethoven did not write anything like Bach's Art of the Fugue, or Mozart's Requiem, where cyclic elements extend up to two-digit number of movements.
> I'm not sure what you mean by "dramatic focus". Whether or not something is "dramatic" is subjective. 18th century Classicists didn't write 1 hour-long symphonies. We don't judge them by Beethoven's preference for cyclism or drama the same way we don't judge Beethoven's melodies by the way Schubert and Tchaikovsky wrote melodies.
> ...


Rather than citing works you know are not cyclic and demanding "tell us what's so cyclic about" them, you can look at this (incomplete) llst of cyclic works on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_form

The Beethoven list can be enlarged by adding the Piano Sonata, Op.101 and the Cello Sonata, Op.102, #2. Moreover, importantly, thematic interconnection also makes of the late quartets a cyclic set.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> Yes, cyclic structure in Beethoven is also rare. Tell us what's so cyclic about Sonata quasi una fantasia Op.27 No.2 (aka. Moonlight), compared to say, Mozart Fantasie & sonata in C minor K475 & 457, for example?


The first in a string of irrelevant or straw man arguments. No one said all Beethoven's works are cyclic, so citing exceptions is an irrelevant response. You do this all the time. 



hammeredklavier said:


> This is an incredibly biased way of looking at the matter. By "Beethoven's cyclic works", you mean his 5th and 9th symphonies + _some other_ works. The 9th symphony is atypical even in Beethoven's oeuvre. The fact still remains - *in vocal works*, Beethoven doesn't follow cyclic technique as much as Mozart does. Beethoven did not write anything like Bach's Art of the Fugue, or *Mozart's Requiem*, where cyclic elements extend up to two-digit number of movements. I'm not sure what you mean by "dramatic focus". Whether or not something is "dramatic" is subjective. 18th century Classicists didn't write 1 hour-long symphonies. We don't judge them by Beethoven's preference for cyclism or drama the same way we don't judge Beethoven's melodies by the way Schubert and Tchaikovsky wrote melodies.


As I clearly stated, I was talking about instrumental music, symphonies, sonatas (in the broad sense which includes trios, quartets, etc.) and concertos. No one cares about masses, requiem or otherwise, in discussions of cyclic structure in the Classical and Romantic Eras because masses have traditionally been cyclic. Cantus firmus and parody masses, for example, are cyclic by definition, so one more cyclic mass has no particular historical significance. Collections of fugues are even more irrelevant.

Dramatic focus means part of an overall design with a plot-like arc.

Beethoven's thematically unified cyclic works include the sonatas Op 57, Op. 101, and Op. 110, the Fifth and Ninth Symphonies, and the Cello Sonata Op 102 #2. There are, however, other elements of cyclic construction beyond thematic links that are important for the history of multimovement cycles, and Beethoven was the main proponent of these as well. The Waldstein Sonata, Fifth Symphony, and the Fourth Concerto, for example, integrate the slow movements and final allegros by making the slow movement a long introduction to a finale that proceeds attacca. His most pervasive contribution to cyclic structure, however, is a general end-weighting of his cycles through substituting elaborate scherzos for minuets and writing climactic finales.



hammeredklavier said:


> Yes, some are cyclic. But still, many are not. In fact, Romantic composers went both ends of the spectrum. Chopin, for example, experimented with what I would call "anti-cyclic form" in his Op.35 Piano sonata, deliberately going against what was expected for a multi-movement work at the time. Schumann famously remarked Chopin put "four of [his] maddest children under the same roof". Tell us what's so cyclic about his piano sonatas? Or other incredibly well-known works of the era, like Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, for example? Or Mendelssohn's violin concerto?


This is the same irrelevant argument with which you began. Citing exceptions is a meaningless response to the claim that cyclic structure was commonplace among romantic composers. Here are a few well known examples:

Beethoven Appassionata, Op. 101, 110, Fifth and Ninth Symphonies, Cello Sonata Op 102 #2
Berlioz Sympnohie Fantastique, Harold in Italy
Schubert Piano Trio no. 2
Mendelssohn Octet, String Quartets in A minor and E-flat, Symphony 3, Piano Sextet
Tchaikovsky Symphonies 4, 5, and Manfred
Brahms Symphony 3, Piano Sonata 1, Quartet no. 3, Clarinet Quintet
Franck Symphony, Violin Sonata, String Quartet
Bruckner 5 and 8 
Schumann 2 and 4, Violin Sonata in A minor, Piano Quintet
Liszt Concertos and Faust Symphony, Sonata in B minor
Mahler 5 and 6 
D'Indy various
Saint-Seans Symphony 3, Cello Concerto 1 
Rachmaninoff - All four symphonies, concertos 3 and 4, Sonata 2.
Rimsky Korsakoff - Antar
Mussorgsky Pictures
Dvorak Symphony 9, Quartet in G

Cyclic construction was more pervasive in the 20thc.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> I don't get the logic of some people here. So when Beethoven resorts again and again to writing the same 4-note motif "ba-ba-ba-bam" instead of something better for a melody, he's thinking in terms of grand, dramatic structure, - but when Mozart builds on small motifs, he's just sticking to cliches or old rules, or he's just being pedantic, not at all thinking in terms of drama or expression?
> 
> "Notwithstanding the magnitude of the work and the diversity of its musical material, based on the Mass are relatively few thematic elements, which are indicated in the first part of the work - Requiem aeternam. Consider the intonations which make up the topic. It consists of two elements: The first is a tonic to the funeral service, the theme of "breath."
> <Once again on Mozart's Requiem (Issues of Intonation-and-Style Analysis) by Andrey Yu. Sapsuev>
> ...


Great post. I wish I knew how to post sections of the score as you have done for the (simpler) example I gave from the D-major viola quintet. There, Mozart simply drops the Larghetto introduction to the first movement, almost in its entirety, into the Minuet (third movement) as the next to last strain, followed by the concluding return to the initial theme of that movement. He disguises it just enough that it isn't immediately recognizable as repetition, but it's all there. Of course, this is a bit of musical humor on Mozart's part, but there is more profound and complex thematic development going on there too, as there is in the Requiem.

I'm finally beginning to understand why there are so many "What's so great about Mozart" posts here. Subtlety, complexity and sly humor aren't everyone's cup of tea.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> The first in a string of irrelevant or straw man arguments. No one said all Beethoven's works are cyclic, so citing exceptions is an irrelevant response. You do this all the time.


You did once pretend as if there weren't cyclic elements in the works of Beethoven's direct predecessors. Of course I didn't forget.  Mr. EdwardBast


Partita said:


> (1) What exactly were the constraints imposed by the classical model that you consider Beethoven found that made it impossible to express what he wanted to achieve?
> 
> 
> EdwardBast said:
> ...


And I believe this wasn't the only time you did. 



EdwardBast said:


> No one cares about masses, requiem or otherwise, in discussions of cyclic structure in the Classical and Romantic Eras because masses have traditionally been cyclic. Cantus firmus and parody masses, for example, are cyclic by definition, so one more cyclic mass has no particular historical significance. Collections of fugues are even more irrelevant.


Refer back to my post #20.
Yes, people do care about liturgical works _including_ masses. They offer possibilities of creating dramatic structure and composers exploited it differently. So tell us how Beethoven's Missa solemnis is cyclic to the extent Mozart's Requiem is, please? Or are you just going to tell us he abandoned cyclic technique in his final missa masterpiece? 



EdwardBast said:


> Dramatic focus means part of an overall design with a plot-like arc.


I agree Romantic composers designed their forms to be more "narrative", (with more emphasis on "programmatic" and "story-telling" elements) again that doesn't have much to do with "drama" (the question of how "dramatic" a certain piece of work is), which depends on the perception of the listener.



EdwardBast said:


> The Waldstein Sonata, Fifth Symphony, and the Fourth Concerto, for example, integrate the slow movements and final allegros by making the slow movement a long introduction to a finale that proceeds attacca.


This is not something new either. A lot of smaller symphonies of the early Classical era do this. (all movements connected by transitions) the symphonies of Bach brothers, early symphonies of Mozart, etc.















EdwardBast said:


> His most pervasive contribution to cyclic structure, however, is a general end-weighting of his cycles through substituting elaborate scherzos for minuets and writing climactic finales.


Haydn substituted scherzos for minuets before Beethoven did in multi-movement works. (that is, string quartets) But of course, an all kinds of argument can be made about how Beethoven "created everything from nothing". (probably your favorite argument ) Building on the work of previous masters was something every great composer of the common practice did. (While I do acknowledge his inventions) I don't think Beethoven needs any "special treatment" in this regard. 
By your logic, isn't Fantasie K475 quoting all kinds of materials from the movements of the associated sonata (K457) something completely new for its time also?

"The Fantasy by nature has a more improvisational quality than the subsequent sonata, and the pairing presents a classical correlation to the baroque combination of fantasy and fugue. Both the fantasy and sonata are linked by a focus on the bass register and octaves in the bass clef."

Beethoven's last piano sonata Op.111 has no finale, but I won't presume to say it's objectively lacking in dramatic structure. I respect other people's opinions that "it's still good without a finale".



EdwardBast said:


> This is the same irrelevant argument with which you began. Citing exceptions is a meaningless response to the claim that cyclic structure was commonplace among romantic composers.


Still, these are only a small percentage of the respective composers' work. It's worth noting many of them wrote significantly lower number of multi-movement works than the classical period composers. And again, the Romantic composers went "both ways" of the spectrum. (Chopin's Op.35 being one notorious example)



EdwardBast said:


> Beethoven Appassionata


So what's cyclic about this work? Is it the same old "4-note" thing again?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

fluteman said:


> *Great post.* I wish I knew how to post sections of the score as you have done for the (simpler) example I gave from the D-major viola quintet. There, Mozart simply drops the Larghetto introduction to the first movement, almost in its entirety, into the Minuet (third movement) as the next to last strain, followed by the concluding return to the initial theme of that movement. He disguises it just enough that it isn't immediately recognizable as repetition, but it's all there. Of course, this is a bit of musical humor on Mozart's part, but there is more profound and complex thematic development going on there too, as there is in the Requiem.


It's not great if he has to bash Beethoven or any other great composer in order to praise Mozart's music.



hammeredklavier said:


> I don't get the logic of some people here. *So when Beethoven resorts again and again to writing the same 4-note motif "ba-ba-ba-bam" instead of something better for a melody*, he's thinking in terms of grand, dramatic structure, - but when Mozart builds on small motifs, he's just sticking to cliches or old rules, or he's just being pedantic, not at all thinking in terms of drama or expression?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allerius said:


> It's not great if he has to bash Beethoven or any other great composer in order to praise Mozart's music.


I apologize (again) if you found it offensive. You got to understand, I'm only doing this to oppose "anti-Mozart/Haydn propaganda". There are all kinds of old threads on this forum making unfair comparisons Mozart/Haydn vs Beethoven/Romantic composers. When I first came to this forum there were still threads like them being created every week. :lol:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

fluteman said:


> Great post. I wish I knew how to post sections of the score as you have done for the (simpler) example I gave from the D-major viola quintet. There, Mozart simply drops the Larghetto introduction to the first movement, almost in its entirety, into the Minuet (third movement) as the next to last strain, followed by the concluding return to the initial theme of that movement. He disguises it just enough that it isn't immediately recognizable as repetition, but it's all there. Of course, this is a bit of musical humor on Mozart's part, but there is more profound and complex thematic development going on there too, as there is in the Requiem.
> I'm finally beginning to understand why there are so many "What's so great about Mozart" posts here. Subtlety, complexity and sly humor aren't everyone's cup of tea.


Yes, the same can be said of another work in D , Divertimento K334, (which I appreciate for its ample amount of darker-hued, contrasting sections of chromaticism). Notice how these start with the same motivic fragments:
Allegro in D major (sonata-form)
Andante in D minor (variation-form)

Also,
[ 2:36 ]

2m36s


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> You did once pretended as if there weren't cyclic elements in the works of Beethoven's direct predecessors. Of course I didn't forget.  Mr. EdwardBast
> 
> And I believe this wasn't the only time you did.
> 
> ...


There's nothing in the above I'm interested in responding to. You can correct your own misunderstandings if you want (narrative and dramatic doesn't mean programmatic, ending with a set of variations doesn't mean missing a finale, lots of people have written about the Appassionata, etc.)

I never said Beethoven created everything from nothing. You made that up.

And, of course, there is your usual tiresome practice of citing single exceptions to refute statements about general trends. As noted before, this doesn't work.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> And, of course, there is your usual tiresome practice of citing single exceptions to refute statements about general trends. As noted before, this doesn't work.


The OP asked for specific examples pre-dating Berlioz of referring directly in one movement of a work to any part of another. I provided one such example, and hammeredklavier provided some more. I can't speak for him, but I certainly didn't mean to refute the idea that "cyclic forms", in the sense I now see you and the OP are using that term, became more common or prominent in the romantic era.

Mozart, at least late in his life when he wrote his most complex and sophisticated works, did embrace the idea of thematic unity, but in a different and more subtle way than some later composers. For Mozart, I think it was an outgrowth of his sophisticated concept of thematic development. He typically doesn't simply return to or repeat earlier themes, but alters the earlier material to put it in its new context.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I have never taken "cyclic form" to mean mere thematic resemblances between different parts of a work. To be cyclic, I think a work must essentially quote itself. There might be some disagreement about certain cases, but most of the numerous examples in music of thematic resemblances and relationships are not instances of cyclic form.

Variation movements, in which a theme, ground bass or harmonic progression is the basis of the whole piece, are not cyclic, and neither is Bach's "Art of the Fugue." It would also be a little odd to say that an opera using leitmotivs has "cyclic form," even though it does. The _Ring_ cycle is cyclic with a vengeance, both musically and dramatically.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> I have never taken "cyclic form" to mean mere thematic resemblances between different parts of a work.


Why did you quote this then? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_form - Isn't it because you agreed with the things said it in, - in order for a work to be considered cyclic, there has to be motivic/thematic similarity between the movements?
So Beethoven's 5th wouldn't be "cyclic"? G-G-G-Eb is not even used the same way tonally when it's recalled in the 3rd movement. It's just used as a rhythmic device, "ba-ba-ba-bam" on one note.



Woodduck said:


> Variation movements, in which a theme, ground bass or harmonic progression is the basis of the whole piece, are not cyclic,


Nobody in this thread said variations are cyclic.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I have never taken "cyclic form" to mean mere thematic resemblances between different parts of a work. To be cyclic, I think a work must essentially quote itself. There might be some disagreement about certain cases, but most of the numerous examples in music of thematic resemblances and relationships are not instances of cyclic form.
> 
> Variation movements, in which a theme, ground bass or harmonic progression is the basis of the whole piece, are not cyclic, and neither is Bach's "Art of the Fugue." It would also be a little odd to say that an opera using leitmotivs has "cyclic form," even though it does. The _Ring_ cycle is cyclic with a vengeance, both musically and dramatically.


The example I cited from Mozart's D-major viola quintet is clearly an example of music quoting itself, yet equally clearly it is not cyclic in the sense of Wagner's Ring cycle or other Wagner operas where the same themes return in essentially the same form over and over again.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

It's interesting sometimes how people try to change definitions, or sets of criteria (with arguments like "only secular instrumental works count") to suit themselves. It reminds me of the thread where people argued over the definition of melody. Yes, there was use of cyclic technique on cantus firmus before Mozart's time, But that still *doesn't change the fact* Mozart wrote multiple "cyclic masses and liturgical works". In K220 ( Kyrie / Dona nobis pacem ) , K243 ( Kyrie / Miserere ), K317 ( Kyrie / Dona nobis pacem ), Mozart actually takes entire sections of material and develops them further.

The definition of "melody" has to be changed to fit people's Beethoven-centric worldview.
The definition of "Classical vs Romantic" has to be changed to fit people's Beethoven-centric worldview.
The definition of "cyclic form" has to be changed to fit people's Beethoven-centric worldview.
I wonder what's next?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I. Allegro has "Rhythm 1" as its principal rhythmic motif: [ dotted 1/4 note - 1/8 note - 1/8 note - 1/8 note ]








II. Menuetto has "Rhythm 2" as its principal rhythmic motif: [ 1/2 note - 1/4 note - 1/4 note - 1/4 note ]








IV. Allegro ma non troppo has both.













Mozart - Quartet in C major, K465 (Dissonance)
Professor Roger Parker
"... The second moment is an Andante cantabile in F major, and starts in much simpler vein: with a clear melody in the first violin. But almost immediately, in the second phrase, you'll hear again that winding chromaticism in the inner parts, and also those tell-tale repeated notes in the cello. Soon after that, the moment become obsessively concerned with a small motive that is first passed from violin to cello, and then to the inner parts; and then, again, you will hear the characteristic build up of instruments, starting (as the slow introduction did) with the cello and moving upwards. In other words, it soon becomes clear that the slow introduction to this 'dissonance' quartet has actually been a kind a mine from which material for the rest of the movements are to be taken. ..."



Woodduck said:


> Moreover, importantly, thematic interconnection also makes of the late quartets a *cyclic set*.


I'm not quite sure what you mean by "cyclic set". So Mozart missa brevis in F major would be in a "cyclic set" with Credomesse, his 1st and 33th symphonies would belong in a cyclic set with his 41th , and Beethoven's 9th symphony would belong in a "cyclic set" with his 6th symphony?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

*Figure 1* = variants of "rising dotted-rhythm" figure

repeated a whole tone higher in both I. Allegro vivace and II. Andante cantabile
*Figure 2* = variants of "cross" theme

development section of I. Allegro vivace 
IV. Molto allegro
*Figure 3* = variants of [Figure 1 developed]

II. Andante cantabile
dotted rhythm removed in IV. Molto allegro
*Figure 4* = variants of "C-D-F-E"

connected with Figure 5 as a single phrase in III. Menuetto 
beginning of IV. Molto allegro 
*Figure 5* = variants of [Figure 4 inverted]

coda of IV. Molto allegro

*I. Allegro vivace* ( Figure 1 , Figure 2 )








*II. Andante cantabile* ( Figure 1 , Figure 3 )








*III. Menuetto* ( Figure 4 , Figure 5 )








*IV. Molto allegro* ( Figure 2 , Figure 3 , Figure 4 , Figure 5 )


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


>


+ certain motivic similarities in these passages:

II. Menuetto








IV. Allegro ma non troppo


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> *Figure 1* = variants of "rising dotted-rhythm" figure
> 
> repeated a whole tone higher in both I. Allegro vivace and II. Andante cantabile
> *Figure 2* = variants of "cross" theme
> ...


The Jupiter symphony is probably in my top five favorite pieces of music, and you have done a nice job (albeit by using some ugly colors ;-)) of picking out some wonderful details. I love how that enigmatic and harmonically ambiguous middle section of the Minuet (that seems to stray into A minor for a while before returning to C) suddenly becomes the basis for the resolutely C major main theme of the final Molto allegro.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

fluteman said:


> The Jupiter symphony is probably in my top five favorite pieces of music, and you have done a nice job (albeit by using some ugly colors ;-)) of picking out some wonderful details. *I love how that enigmatic and harmonically ambiguous middle section of the Minuet suddenly becomes the basis for the resolutely C major main theme of the final Molto allegro.*


Except it doesn't. The scale degrees and mode are all different. These are the kind of bogus, coincidental non-relationships for which Rudolph Reti's _The Thematic Process in Musi_c has been has been roundly criticized. There is a whole body of literature on this topic. If you're interested I can dig out the bibliography for it.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

--------------------------------


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> Except it doesn't. The scale degrees and mode are all different. These are the kind of bogus, coincidental non-relationships for which Rudolph Reti's _The Thematic Process in Musi_c has been has been roundly criticized. There is a whole body of literature on this topic. If you're interested I can dig out the bibliography for it.


I say this again, why then, do we consider Beethoven's 5th symphony cyclic? G-G-G-Eb is not even used the same way tonally in the 3rd movement. So whenever Beethoven does that Ba-ba-ba-bam on one note, he's considered as doing cyclic technique :lol:. How convenient.
So in this way Appassionata is also cyclic? :lol:

Are you going to explain to us now how Beethoven's op.57, op.110 are cyclic?


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> Except it doesn't. The scale degrees and mode are all different. These are the kind of bogus, coincidental non-relationships for which Rudolph Reti's _The Thematic Process in Musi_c has been has been roundly criticized. There is a whole body of literature on this topic. If you're interested I can dig out the bibliography for it.


Nah. I'm not familiar with Mr. Reti, but since I looked at this thread I've looked at the work of some other writers I respect, and they agree with me about my point here in general, and for this particular passage. Also, I have enough training and understanding of harmony (and the ears), and the experience studying and playing this particular symphony, to know that I and they and hammeredklavier are right about this particular passage.
Edit: Charles Rosen includes a general discussion of this issue in his book The Classical Style at 36-42. As for the example from the Jupiter Symphony Minuet trio, you can't deny the E-G#-B-D dominant seventh chord followed by the A minor triad A-C-E. Yes, it does not settle into A minor (the D# and F# leading tones are not in the A minor scale, and suggest the E major triad that follows, no?). In any event, the ambiguity or instability is very characteristic of Mozart. Then, in the fourth movement, the theme finally and unambiguously finds its home in C major. A different scale degree and harmonic context does not make it a different theme. Rosen's discussion is apt.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Why did you quote this then? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_form - Isn't it because you agreed with the things said it in, - in order for a work to be considered cyclic, there has to be motivic/thematic similarity between the movements?


Don't ask me why I quoted something. Ask me about a specific point or example.

"Similarity" is a slippery term. How similar is similar? And what is the purpose of the "similarity"?



> So Beethoven's 5th wouldn't be "cyclic"?


Of course it is.



> G-G-G-Eb is not even used the same way tonally when it's recalled in the 3rd movement. It's just used as a rhythmic device, "ba-ba-ba-bam" on one note.


If you don't perceive the dramatic purpose behind the recurrence of that rhythm, fine. I do, and most listeners, I think, do.



> Nobody in this thread said variations are cyclic.


I didn't say that anyone said they are.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> I don't get the logic of some people here.


That's clear.



> So when Beethoven resorts again and again to writing the same 4-note motif "ba-ba-ba-bam" instead of something better for a melody, he's thinking in terms of grand, dramatic structure,


The sneering tone chills my blood.



> - but when Mozart builds on small motifs, he's just sticking to cliches or old rules, or he's just being pedantic, not at all thinking in terms of drama or expression?


The question at hand is not whether there's drama or expression, or even whether someone is "building on small motifs," but whether cyclic form is really in use.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Woodduck writes: "thematic interconnection also makes of the late quartets a cyclic set."
> 
> I'm not quite sure what you mean by "cyclic set".


Beethoven uses the same four-note motif - basically the one that opens the Grosse Fuge - as a kind of "leitmotiv" that unifies the quartets Opp. 130.131 and 132. From Wiki:

_Opus 132, 130 and 131 are sometimes called the "ABC" quartets because of their successive tonalities: A minor, B♭ major, and C♯ minor. They are thematically linked together over the four notes of the second tetrachord of the harmonic minor scale. This is explained by A. David Hogarth in his notes written for the recording of all six quartets by the Quartetto Italiano:[7]

Credits: A. David Hogarth, in Die Späten Streichquartette Und Grosse Fuge, Op. 133
What obviously intrigued Beethoven was the wide interval of a tone and a half between notes 2 and 3 [of example A]. In different permutations, the four notes play an important role in all three quartets and each work has a distinctive motto which also appears in companion works. The opening motto of op. 132, which ultimately reappears in op. 131's finale, consists of the first four notes of the opening bars (see example B).

The subject of the "Grosse Fuge" finale of the B flat major, op. 130 follows the same pattern with the rising sixth between notes 1 and 3 increased from minor to major (see example C).

Op. 131, the masterwork of the three, opens with a fugue and the subject's opening phrase (transposed) is as example D. (As such this motto is already predicted in the trio of op. 132's second movement.) The key notes from which these mottoes are built finally appear thematically in their original scale form in the finale of op. 131.

Beethoven's sketchbooks prove clearly that these permutations were not coincidental. Even if they were there would be other coincidences to explain - the ABC sequence of keys, for instance, and the fact that the quartets have successively five, six, and seven movements.)

It could be argued that op. 131 is a six-movement work for the third "movement" is only 10 bars long and has the same A major key signature as its successor. Some critics notably Vincent d'Indy, regard it simply as an introduction. But the tonality of the 10 bars is clearly B minor and if we note the tonal centres of the first four movements we get the familiar pattern of op. 132 and the "Grosse Fugue" (see example E). The keys of the remaining movements complete a cyclic progression back to C sharp minor.
_

Whether Beethoven attached a particular meaning to this motif, I don't know. But its recurrence often feels like more than a technical feat, especially in the C# minor quartet, where it's heard in the opening fugue and then again in the strenuous finale. Whether this should be considered an example of a cyclic gesture uniting three separate works might be disputed. I don't want to argue about it, so please don't bury me under another mound of Mozart scores.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> dramatic significance


LOL. You just can't accept the fact Mozart's cyclic methods are different from Beethoven and Schubert's contrived ways, Mr. EdwardBast.






Look at this analysis on the K387 finale, there are "real answers" and "tonal answers" (notes slightly adjusted in pitches) Mozart intends these phrases as essentially the "same expression". This sort of method is inherent in his language.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> ...The question at hand is not whether there's drama or expression, or even whether someone is "building on small motifs," but whether cyclic form is really in use.


As always, a matter of definition! In the OP I had in mind the use of a theme across movements that would be instantly recognizable (Franck's D-minor Symphony is an example). Thus the return of the Scherzo's theme in Beethoven's 5th would qualify, but the _slightly _more subtle use of the 4-note rhythmic motif in all four movements would not.

Others will have other definitions, of course.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> _Opus 132, 130 and 131 are sometimes called the "ABC" quartets because of their successive tonalities: A minor, B♭ major, and C♯ minor. They are thematically linked together over the four notes of the second tetrachord of the harmonic minor scale. This is explained by A. David Hogarth in his notes written for the recording of all six quartets by the Quartetto Italiano:[7]
> _


_

Why am I suddenly reminded of this:



hammeredklavier said:



https://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/jul/23/mozart-last-symphonies-nikolaus-harnoncourt-review
"... Harnoncourt is convinced that Mozart intended the three symphonies, famously composed in just two months in the summer of 1788, as a unity - the parts of a gigantic instrumental oratorio, which was perhaps inspired by a choral work of CPE Bach's, Die Auferstehung und Himmelfahrt Jesu, that he had conducted earlier the same year. That, Harnoncourt's reasoning goes, would explain the thematic connections between the three works, and also why the opening to the E-flat Symphony K543 is conceived like an overture, and why neither that work nor the G minor Symphony K550 has what he calls a "proper" finale, unlike the C major Jupiter Symphony K551, whose last movement seems intended to sum up everything that has come before. ..."



Woodduck said:



what Harnoncourt says about Mozart's last three symphonies is not relevant at all.

Click to expand...



Click to expand...

_


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> ...Whether Beethoven attached a particular meaning to this motif, I don't know. But its recurrence often feels like more than a technical feat, especially in the C# minor quartet, where it's heard in the opening fugue and then again in the strenuous finale. Whether this should be considered an example of a cyclic gesture uniting three separate works might be disputed...


The use of this motif across all three quartets (and the Grosse Fuge of course) has been often mentioned. I hope somebody can compare that motif with the main theme from the primo of Shostakovich's 5th Symphony...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> LOL. You just can't accept the fact Mozart's cyclic methods are different from Beethoven and Schubert's contrived ways, Mr. EdwardBast.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's obvious that you still don't understand the specific sense of the word "dramatic" as used by EdwardBast. Hint: it's about narrativity - drama as in a play, a form of storytelling, as a meaningful plot - not about intense feelings.

I have to tell you that your snide tone is getting (getting?) as tiresome as your constant putdowns of great and beloved composers. It all comes across as stupid and childish. No one wants to hear it. I'll volunteer to tell you this so that people afraid of the moderators can feel safe in their silence.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> I have to tell you that your snide tone is getting (getting?) as tiresome as your constant putdowns of great and beloved composers. It all comes across as stupid and childish.


Sorry about the joke on those fabulous composers. LOL.
Can't we at least agree Mozart didn't write "irrelevant" finales? Take for example, the 24th piano concerto, where the "double exposition" and "double solo counterpart" of the first movement are balanced by the "double variations" of the last movement. Or string quintet K515 where the outer movements share the common concept of rising chromatic scales in the inner parts.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> It's obvious that you still don't understand the specific sense of the word "dramatic" as used by EdwardBast. Hint: it's about narrativity - drama as in a play, a form of storytelling, as a meaningful plot - not about intense feelings.
> 
> I have to tell you that your snide tone is getting (getting?) as tiresome as your constant putdowns of great and beloved composers. It all comes across as stupid and childish. No one wants to hear it. I'll volunteer to tell you this so that people afraid of the moderators can feel safe in their silence.


In the excerpt to his book that I cited above (which analyzes the music of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven at great length), Rosen intelligently addresses the very issue debated here, very much without being snide, stupid or childish about great and beloved composers. Indeed, he subsequently wrote an equally thoughtful book about Romantic era composers. As for hammeredklavier's comments, yes, he is (intentionally) getting a bit silly, but Beethoven's and Schubert's reputations can withstand his assault, in particular Beethoven's 5th and 9th symphonies and Appassionata sonata and Schubert's great Op. 100 piano trio, as can the reputations of later Romantic era composers. I think he is trying to say that when it comes to achieving thematic unity, Mozart's more subtle approach does not mean his music is in any way less masterful and formidable. Indeed, Rosen groups Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven together in this context, and more generally. But without the jokes.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> I have to tell you that your snide tone is getting (getting?) as tiresome as your constant putdowns of great and beloved composers. It all comes across as stupid and childish. No one wants to hear it. I'll volunteer to tell you this so that people afraid of the moderators can feel safe in their silence.


That's why there's an ignore function. Let the mad yell into the void.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

KenOC said:


> As always, a matter of definition! In the OP I had in mind the use of a theme across movements that would be instantly recognizable (Franck's D-minor Symphony is an example). Thus the return of the Scherzo's theme in Beethoven's 5th would qualify, but the _slightly _more subtle use of the 4-note rhythmic motif in all four movements would not.
> 
> Others will have other definitions, of course.


What is instantly recognizable to me and what is instantly recognizable to you may not be the same thing. If by "instantly" you mean upon first hearing, with no prior experience or familiarity with the composer's music or style in which it is written, and no ear for harmony, counterpoint and thematic structure and development, then that is not the way I and many others listen to any of the music discussed in this thread. For me, great music rewards repeated listening and careful attention to subtle details.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> I say this again, why then, do we consider Beethoven's 5th symphony cyclic? G-G-G-Eb is not even used the same way tonally in the 3rd movement. So whenever Beethoven does that Ba-ba-ba-bam on one note, he's considered as doing cyclic technique :lol:. How convenient.
> So in this way Appassionata is also cyclic? :lol:
> 
> Are you going to explain to us now how Beethoven's op.57, op.110 are cyclic?


The Fifth is cyclic by the thematic quotation between the scherzo and finale alone and the fact that the two movements proceed without break. The fact that the "Fate motive" (henceforth … _ ) appears first, at every crucial juncture, and nearly everywhere else in the first movement, assures that any other prominent iteration of the motive later in the work will be heard in relation to it. It's a simple matter of emphasis, salience and dramatic significance. Additionally, the . . . _ motive in the scherzo is the initial and principal motive of its theme, just as it was in the first movement. And like its counterpart, it appears at the most dramatically significant points in the structure - in the crescendo transition to one of the most dramatic finales in the history of the symphony, right before the triumphant major-key opening using trombones, and before the recapitulation. Once again, emphasis, salience, and dramatic significance. The rhythmic motive is also the initial and principal motive of the finale's second theme. Schumann's imitation of Beethoven's procedure in his Fourth Symphony and Violin Sonata in A minor shows that other composers got it.

Edit: Picking up on Woodduck's point below about thematic quotes having a point: The point of the "Fate motive" recurring right before the finale is that a reminiscence of a dark past sets in high relief the finale's glorious, triumphant C major, illustrating how far the work has traveled expressively. The sounding of the motive before the recap carries the threat that the dark past will return, thus creating dramatic tension until very near the end of the symphony.

Opus 57 is unified by the "Fate motive," in this case, from b6 to 5. It's the most critical and salient motive of the first movement and its semitone descent is a principal motive of the finale theme. (Emphasis and salience) But its influence is also reflected in the most important tonal/harmonic events of the sonata. In the first movement the crucial action of both the development and coda is the attempt to establish the second theme in the key of the submediant, Db major. In both cases the harrowing intervention of the "Fate motive" drags us back through the dominant. Motion between C and Db in the bass destabilizes the recap of the principal theme. The semitone motion also underlies the unusual move to Gb in the principal theme, and sequential progressions by submediant relationships (b6) account for much of the movement's harmonic motion and its key relationships. The slow movement, in D-flat major, accomplishes what the first movement's development and coda failed to do: establish a major mode contrast in the submediant. But in the transition to the finale Db is destabilized and dragged down into the tonic. It's the same destabilizing motion as in the first movement.

In Opus 110 the fugue subject of the finale is based on the opening theme of the sonata - emphasis, salience and dramatic significance.

To put it in dramatic terms: Your example of a secondary phrase from the minuet in the "Jupiter" allegedly transformed in the finale is like an extra coincidentally wearing the same hat as the hero. In all of the Beethoven examples it is the hero (or villain) performing the same kinds of actions in a different hat.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> To put it in dramatic terms: Your example of a secondary phrase from the minuet in the "Jupiter" allegedly transformed in the finale is like an extra coincidentally wearing the same hat as the hero. In all of the Beethoven examples it is the hero wearing a different hat.


Hardly. The fourth movement of the Jupiter is very much like a ship finally sailing into its familiar home port after a long voyage on rough seas. The use of what you quite correctly call a "secondary phrase", really a minor transitional theme bobbing around in the middle of an ocean of harmonic instability, as the main pillar of the mighty final movement, is what helps create that "we've finally come home" effect, and create it with the very first notes of the movement. Of course, the fourth movement continues to draw from material earlier in the symphony and make everything meld together in the most elaborate yet convincing way. To call all of that "coincidental" is, in my view, to misunderstand one of the most glorious moments in all western music. Beethoven himself certainly understood the importance of Haydn and Mozart to his own music, very much including the Jupiter symphony.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> *Figure 1* = variants of "rising dotted-rhythm" figure
> 
> repeated a whole tone higher in both I. Allegro vivace and II. Andante cantabile
> *Figure 2* = variants of "cross" theme
> ...


I don't quite hear much of a connection myself in your examples to the first theme of the last movement of Jupiter, especially your example of the Menuetto, the use was entirely different in the development, and in the harmony. But you missed one that I've ALWAYS did find a strong connection to the opening theme of the 4th movement. For me it is not coincidental, the 2nd instance is note for note in a slightly different rhythm.









I've also found the first part of the last movement of Mozart's Piano Concerto 20 a strong pointer back to the angst of the first movement, especially after the more tame slow movement.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I had to re-listen to the "jupiter," having not done so for a long time, to find these examples of motivic reminiscence that some here are calling "cyclic." There are going to be borderline or disputable cases, but I have to say that I come down on the "not really cyclic" side of this one. I said in post #38 that I don't take "cyclic form" to mean mere thematic resemblances between different parts of a work. Plenty of music exhibits such resemblances. When a work quotes itself, the quotation has to make some sort of point - to feel significant - not merely serve to lend the work unity. The motif in question in the "Jupiter" is a secondary one, an introduction or bridge to the main theme of the minuet's trio section; it's quickly gone, and I don't feel that there's any specific purpose served by turning it into the main theme of the finale. I don't picture that "ship coming home to port after a voyage" that flutemen says he does. If Mozart had made something important of the motif on its first exposure - repeated it, transformed it, developed it - its re-use would certainly be an example of cyclic form.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Phil loves classical said:


> But you missed one that I've ALWAYS did find a strong connection to the opening theme of the 4th movement. For me it is not coincidental, the 2nd instance is note for note in a slightly different rhythm.
> 
> View attachment 131205


Good point. But really, they are all related, as the theme of the middle section of the Minuet is developed from the fragment of the opening theme that you have identified (thus, the theme is repeated, transformed and developed, as Woodduck wants). Then, when the theme returns at the start of the final movement, it is rhythmically similar to the developed and transformed version, but harmonically, returns to the original C major theme that opened the Minuet. All of that is typical for the mature Mozart, and numerous other examples could be cited. NB Woodduck: It is also typical of Mozart to take themes that at first seem minor, brief and unimportant and develop them in ingenious, lengthy and elaborate ways, either immediately or much later on. The Jupiter symphony final movement is probably the ultimate example.
Anyway, these are certainly pre-Beethoven examples of what the OP was seeking. Whether they qualify as "cyclic", however that term is defined, I'll leave to others.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

fluteman said:


> Good point. But really, they are all related, as the theme of the middle section of the Minuet is developed from the fragment of the opening theme that you have identified (thus, the theme is repeated, transformed and developed, as Woodduck wants). Then, when the theme returns at the start of the final movement, it is rhythmically similar to the developed and transformed version, but harmonically, returns to the original C major theme that opened the Minuet. All of that is typical for the mature Mozart, and numerous other examples could be cited.


That's true, that the middle was probably a transformed use of the germ in the Menuetto. I'm not a huge opera buff, but as far as I know Don Giovanni's Overture was the first I heard that made strong use of material to come later in the opera, as in the Commendatore scene. Not sure if that can be seen as cyclic, a premonition, or just an overview of some thematic material.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> That's true, that the middle was probably a transformed use of the germ in the Menuetto. I'm not a huge opera buff, but as far as I know Don Giovanni's Overture was the first I heard that made strong use of material to come later in the opera, as in the Commendatore scene. Not sure if that can be seen as cyclic, a premonition, or just an overview of some thematic material.


Thematic recurrences in opera are an interesting topic in their own right, but they aren't relevant to the discussion of cyclic structure as raised in the OP. Rigoletto, for example, isn't called a cyclic opera.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> The Fifth is cyclic by the thematic quotation between the scherzo and finale alone and the fact that the two movements proceed without break. The fact that the "Fate motive" (henceforth … _ ) appears first, at every crucial juncture, and nearly everywhere else in the first movement, assures that any other prominent iteration of the motive later in the work will be heard in relation to it. It's a simple matter of emphasis, salience and dramatic significance. Additionally, the . . . _ motive in the scherzo is the initial and principal motive of its theme, just as it was in the first movement. And like its counterpart, it appears at the most dramatically significant points in the structure - in the crescendo transition to one of the most dramatic finales in the history of the symphony, right before the triumphant major-key opening using trombones, and before the recapitulation. Once again, emphasis, salience, and dramatic significance. The rhythmic motive is also the initial and principal motive of the finale's second theme. Schumann's imitation of Beethoven's procedure in his Fourth Symphony and Violin Sonata in A minor shows that other composers got it.
> Edit: Picking up on Woodduck's point below about thematic quotes having a point: The point of the "Fate motive" recurring right before the finale is that a reminiscence of a dark past sets in high relief the finale's glorious, triumphant C major, illustrating how far the work has traveled expressively. The sounding of the motive before the recap carries the threat that the dark past will return, thus creating dramatic tension until very near the end of the symphony.
> Opus 57 is unified by the "Fate motive," in this case, from b6 to 5. It's the most critical and salient motive of the first movement and its semitone descent is a principal motive of the finale theme. (Emphasis and salience) But its influence is also reflected in the most important tonal/harmonic events of the sonata. In the first movement the crucial action of both the development and coda is the attempt to establish the second theme in the key of the submediant, Db major. In both cases the harrowing intervention of the "Fate motive" drags us back through the dominant. Motion between C and Db in the bass destabilizes the recap of the principal theme. The semitone motion also underlies the unusual move to Gb in the principal theme, and sequential progressions by submediant relationships (b6) account for much of the movement's harmonic motion and its key relationships. The slow movement, in D-flat major, accomplishes what the first movement's development and coda failed to do: establish a major mode contrast in the submediant. But in the transition to the finale Db is destabilized and dragged down into the tonic. It's the same destabilizing motion as in the first movement.


Now, now, Mr. EdwardBast.. (sigh).. You're doing it again. This is exactly the kind of thing I would describe as (by borrowing the words very well put by Woodduck) :


Woodduck said:


> I don't know what else you've said here because the post is too long to read, like many of your posts. I don't want to feel like I'm back in college. I was ecstatic to graduate and kept cheering inside about never having to endure another professor droning on.


But believe me, I DO think there is a unifying element in Beethoven Op.57. (Now, isn't that a surprise)

The outer movements do share a striking common trait.
And that common trait is "quoting Fantasie K475" - Hahahahaha - isn't that wonderful! Beethoven demonstrating yet again he has good taste. 






Fantasie K475: Piu allegro







Sonata Op.57: I. Allegro assai








Fantasie K475: Tempo primo







Sonata Op.57: III. Allegro ma non troppo








btw, this is an interesting article:
"... Mozart's Phantasie transcended the historical and stylistic moment in which it was created, thus what Mozart began was finished by Liszt in his piano composition Sonata in B-minor (1852-1853). It is perfectly reasonable that Mozart's Phantasie served as a model to Franz Liszt for a typological definition of his one-movement sonata cycle. ..."
< W. A. Mozart's Phantasie in C minor, K. 475: The Pillars of Musical Structure and Emotional Response >



EdwardBast said:


> In Opus 110 the fugue subject of the finale is based on the opening theme of the sonata - emphasis, salience and dramatic significance.












Well I think the opening theme of the Beethoven sonata resembles that of Mozart C major sonata K545 and the fugue subject of the Beethoven sonata resembles that of the B major fugue of Bach WTC II more. But _I'll still respect your view _ that "In Opus 110 the fugue subject of the finale is based on the opening theme of the sonata". See? I _respect your views_. 



EdwardBast said:


> To put it in dramatic terms: Your example of a secondary phrase from the minuet in the "Jupiter" allegedly transformed in the finale is like an extra coincidentally wearing the same hat as the hero. In all of the Beethoven examples it is the hero (or villain) performing the same kinds of actions in a different hat.


Ok.. In _dramatic_ terms, what do you think _you_ are? A villain? Or a good guy? Me? I think I'm actually a good guy inside- deep down, I respect other people's views. But on the outside I appear/pretend as a bad guy and say naughty jokes such as post #53 to get my points across.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> But believe me, I DO think there is a unifying element in Beethoven Op.57. (Now, isn't that a surprise)
> 
> The outer movements do share a striking common trait.
> And that common trait is "quoting Fantasie K475" - Hahahahaha - isn't that wonderful! Beethoven demonstrating yet again


None of the passages you quote have any significant resemblance to the Mozart. You really haven't demonstrated competence at this sort of analysis.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> I've also found the first part of the last movement of Mozart's Piano Concerto 20 a strong pointer back to the angst of the first movement, especially after the more tame slow movement.


Yes. Again, take a look at:
[ 2:36 ]

2m36s


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

^I can see your point, but the practice of refraining from establishing keys in tonic/dominant to establish keys more in submediant/mediant was common in Beethoven's time. For example. The second movement of Schubert's B minor Symphony, the tonic is E major, the second theme in the key of the submediant, C sharp minor. The first theme of the first movement is B minor, the second theme is G major. Look at the use of the circle of fifths in the outer movements of Mozart's G minor Symphony, for example. Do their emphasis on tonic/dominant, and the way the movements develop on their relationship make the movements "cyclic"? From what I understand, establishing the key in the relative major for the second theme in a minor-key work and then attempting to establish the key of the theme in the submediant/mediant in the development is like 'early Romantic equivalent' to the Classical way of establishing the key in relative major in a minor-key work and then attempting to establish the key of the theme in the dominant in the development.
_"establish a major mode contrast in the submediant."_ - Again, this is more like early Romantic version of the Classical method of establishing contrast by use of the subdominant, (ie. 1st movement - C major | 2nd movement - F major | 3rd movement - C major ) or relative major in minor-key works (ie. 1st movement - C minor | 2nd movement - E flat major | 3rd movement - C minor )
Beethoven's own Tempest sonata : 1st movement - D minor | 2nd movement - B flat major | 3rd movement - D minor.
And I don't quite hear the "fate motif" in the third movement of Op.57 as you do. Maybe You could show us with the actual score where they are.  (You don't have to if you don't want to. _I still respect your view_ that Beethoven's Op.57 is cyclic.) 
And a lot of themes, motifs are created using a "semitone descent", I don't find the ones in the outer movements of Op.53 really all that strikingly similar. But again, _I respect your view_ that they're similar.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Now, now, Mr. EdwardBast.. (sigh).. You're doing it again. This is exactly the kind of thing I would describe as (by borrowing the words very well put by Woodduck) : " I don't know what else you've said here because the post is too long to read, like many of your posts. I don't want to feel like I'm back in college. I was ecstatic to graduate and kept cheering inside about never having to endure another professor droning on."





> But believe me, I DO think there is a unifying element in Beethoven Op.57. (Now, isn't that a surprise?) The outer movements do share a striking common trait. And that common trait is "quoting Fantasie K475" - Hahahahaha - isn't that wonderful! Beethoven demonstrating yet again he has good taste.





> See? *I respect your views*.





> Ok.. In _dramatic_ terms, what do you think _you_ are? A villain? Or a good guy? Me? I think *I'm actually a good guy inside- deep down, I respect other people's views.* But on the outside I appear/pretend as a bad guy and say *naughty jokes such as post #53 to get my points across.*





> *From post #53:* And what about Beethoven's Ninth-
> 
> "Der schwer gefaßte Entschluß!"
> "I'm deaf! I can't hear my own music!"
> ...


EdwardBast's analysis of the cyclic characteristics of Beethoven's 5th is exactly what you need to hear, but all you can do is giggle like Tom Hulse playing Mozart in a pink wig.

"Good guys" don't need to tell other people that that's what they "actually" are. Your "respect" for other people's views - other than David C.F. Wright's idiotic ones, apparently - is obviously phony. We are not conned. "Deep down, inside," you're a provocateur and a sloppy thinker who can't recognize an accurate musical analysis when its handed to him on a silver platter.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

I think hammeredklavier's posts here are some of the best I've ever seen at TC, if one doesn't consider (or ignores) his nose-thumbing, tongue-protruding, schoolyard "I know you are but what am I" style of debate humor, and just consider his analysis and specific examples. A little research on my part has revealed that many of the examples he gives of thematic relationships in Mozart and Beethoven are discussed in the relevant literature, and even many concert program notes, including the one he picked out and I discussed at greater (no doubt tedious) length involving the third movement minuet trio and the opening theme of the fourth movement of the Jupiter symphony. 

Out of curiosity, I checked to see if any published musicologists have picked up on the thematic relationship I pointed out without his help in the D-major viola quintet, K. 493 between the opening theme and the penultimate strain of the minuet. Not surprisingly, they've caught that one too. But I don't cite published musicologists as proof that hammeredklavier and I are right about the existence of these relationships. The proof comes from the fact that I learned about these thematic relationships by listening to the music and hearing them, not by reading about them in scholarly texts, which I try to avoid, or anywhere else. 

If people hear something in music, that is sufficient to demonstrate that it is there, so there is no point arguing about that. What remains is to analyze why people hear what they hear. Much as I dislike citing scholarship, I wish more of you would read Charles Rosen's book that I cited above, The Classical Style, for a much more thorough and articulate discussion of the issues raised in this thread, including some of the specific examples, though that is not the main purpose of the book. Rosen responds thoughtfully and convincingly (and politely!) to many of the arguments made here.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I was bored, so I decided to talk a bit more to elaborate on the points I made sometime ago on this thread about Fantasie & sonata K475 & K457, an intriguing Classical successor to the Baroque fantasie & fugue.

{ Excerpts from [ Fantasie K475 ] , [ sonata K457 first movement ] , [ sonata K457 second movement ] , [ sonata K457 third movement ] are denoted [ *F* ] , [ *S1* ] , [ *S2* ] , [ *S3* ] respectively in the top-left corners. }






















*[ Fantasie K475 ]
[ K457 III. Allegro assai ]*
I think these "4-note motif" figures (in chords) in the "Più allegro" section of the Fantasie and the third movement of the sonata (right before reaching their final episodes) exhibit certain gestural similarities. I personally like the way they're used in the third movement of the sonata better; I find it to be more "Classically chaotic".

*[ Fantasie K475 ]
[ K457 I. Molto allegro ]
[ K457 III. Allegro assai ]*
Another interesting commonality I find in the fantasie and the outer movements of the sonata is the "sigh-like expression", that is, when each of these movements is at the climatic midpoint of drama, (ex. around the end of the development section), there is a diminished seventh chord collapsing down to a dominant 6/5 chord.

-----
















*[ Fantasie K475 ]
[ K457 III. Allegro assai ]*
The last measures of both the fantasie and the sonata share the final statement "F#-G-Ab-F-G-C". The article <W.A. Mozart's Fantasy in C minor, K. 475, And the Generalization of the Lydian Principle Through Motivic Thorough-Composition> discusses how F# plays a pivotal role in conceptually connecting the Fantasie with the sonata. 
The passages highlighted in pink also seem very similar in gesture, probably because their figures being somewhat similar, and also due to the context they're placed in, in both cases.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

*[ Fantasie K475 ]
[ K457 I. Molto allegro ]*
The passages highlighted in yellow are the ones modulating to the "second-thematic sections" in the expositions of the fantasie and the sonata's 1st movement, respectively. I think these also share certain gestural similarities.

*[ K475: Adagio ]
[ K475: Andantino ] *
The figure highlighted in light green (in the topmost score), initially introduced in the exposition of the Fantasie (or the "Adagio" section or "1st movement"), later in the piece, becomes basis for the thematic working of the "Andantino" section (or the "3rd movement") of the Fantasie. The article <W. A. Mozart's Phantasie in C minor, K. 475: The Pillars of Musical Structure and Emotional Response> discusses how the Fantasie is conceptually "4 movements" contained in "one-movement sonata cycle".

-----
















*[ Fantasie K475 ]
[ K457 II. Adagio ]*
The D major "second theme" of the fantasie and the theme of the sonata's 2nd movement, which are highlighted in violet; they may not be exactly the same thematic material, but in terms of rhythm, they're more similar than any other Mozart piano sonata slow movements.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

*[ Fantasie K475 ]
[ K457 I. Molto allegro ]*
These are totally different thematic material, but to me, they still seem to exhibit resemblance in rhythmic proportion. Unlike that of the fantasie, the passage of the sonata is composed of descending chromatic fourths (like the G minor symphony K550, where "G-F#-F-E-D#-D" shows up in all its movements { I / II (2nd violin, Bar 6) / III (bassoon, Bar 36) / IV } ), but the gesture, and the way it's used in the context of the movement strike me as having an indirect, non-thematic relationship with the similarly-rhythmed passage in the Fantasie.

-----
















*[ K457 I. Molto allegro ]
[ K457 III. Allegro assai ]*
This sort of gradually rising "agitated" chromatic figures accompanied by left-hand bass figures don't show up very often in Mozart's other keyboard works (At least not in this way. I can think of Fantasie K397, but in this work, the right hand is accompanied by chords, rather than alberti bass figures) So I think there is a certain mood that Mozart wants to convey in the outer movements of K457 that's unique from his other keyboard works.






Btw, some time ago I made some posts about other works in a similar thread, I think the one about quintet K515 is the most interesting.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> *[ Fantasie K475 ]
> [ K457 I. Molto allegro ]*
> These are totally different thematic material, but to me, they still seem to exhibit resemblance in rhythmic proportion. Unlike that of the fantasie, the passage of the sonata is composed of descending chromatic fourths (like the G minor symphony K550, where "G-F#-F-E-D#-D" shows up in all its movements { I / II (2nd violin, Bar 6) / III (bassoon, Bar 36) / IV } ), but the gesture, and the way it's used in the context of the movement strike me as having an indirect, non-thematic relationship with the similarly-rhythmed passage in the Fantasie.
> 
> ...


I really like these kaleidoscopic findings of yours, it's my pleasure to read them. I'm far from being a music expert and it's not my goal to try to judge what is or what is not cyclic here, but I still think that your reasoning makes sense, more so considering that K.475 and K.457 were published together (still, at bar 8 of the first score I'm seeing descending chromatic thirds instead of fourths, but I just awaked up and a cup of coffee will probably help me with this heh ).

Have you already figured out the thematic resemblance between a moment in the aria "Se il padre perdei" ("If the father I lost") from _Idomeneo_ (K. 366) when the words "la patria, il riposo" are sang and one of the second movement from K. 550 (it also appears somewhere in one of the arias of _Die Zauberflöte_ I think, but I don't remember which)? This always made me think that the Mozart's Great G minor symphony is about the loss of his father.

Compare (at 0:17 in the first video and at 0:07 in the second):











"Se il padre perdei,
La patria, il riposo,
a Idomeneo
Tu padre mi sei,
Soggiorno amoroso
È Creta per me.

Or più non rammento
Le angoscie, gli affanni
Or gioia, e contento,
Compenso a miei danni
Il cielo mi diè."

I also think that there may be a thematic connection between other two sections of this same opera and Beethoven's 5th symphony and Bruckner's 4th, but I don't recall where right now.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allerius said:


> I really like these kaleidoscopic findings of yours, it's my pleasure to read them. I'm far from being a music expert and it's not my goal to try to judge what is or what is not cyclic here, but I still think that your reasoning makes sense, more so considering that K.475 and K.457 were published together


K.475 and K.457 weren't just published together, they were intended to be a "single entity" -_"the pairing presents a classical correlation to the baroque combination of fantasy and fugue."_. And there are many pianists today performing them as one, and most editions of sheet music pair them as one entity -like how conductors today play "repeats" in Mozart, which you once described as if it's "something we just have to accept" (while denigrating Mozart as being too full of "repeats" in the process). Something like Liszt's B minor sonata has "double bar lines" (not "end bar lines") to separate its "movements". Fantasie K475 contains an obvious 4-movement structure ( Adagio / Allegro / Andantino-Più allegro / Tempo I ) in a similar fashion ( and an exploration to find the "right key", like Schumann's C major) . Why not question whether Liszt's sonata is really "cyclic" then? Can we argue it's just an one-movement work titled "sonata"?

I'm tired of the constant nitpicky attitude (by fans of certain composer) trying to belittle Mozart's experiments. =) You and some other people often complain as if I'm the only "villain" every time, but do look through this thread. Have you asked yourself why I talk like this, or this, or this? Look at yourselves, like seriously. =) I think some people are just being jealous, just because their favorite composer did not produce a great masterpiece of one-movement-sonata-cycle. I suspect Woodduck might be one of them. Among many other things I still remember him denigrating Mozart's early liturgical _vocal_ works as being just a ""buttload" of little Wolfie's kyries, credos, agnuses and fugal exercises". =)



Machiavel said:


> Dude get over it , we know you dislike him . Damn the Beethoven fanboy club always have to talk about beethoven in a mozart thread. I mean I never read about a matchup between those 2 that was not instigated by beethoven lovers. Whatever the thread is about, they always have to go back to Beethoven. Some here sounds like 15 years old with there Beethoven this and that over and over again in all the thread. Just go and see for yourself. Each time they speak about any other composers they always bring the but beethoven was better. In a way I pity them. And sadly the majority of them are kids


^It's no wonder why people on this forum have been saying things like this from time to time.
-----



Allerius said:


> (still, at bar 8 of the first score I'm seeing descending chromatic thirds instead of fourths, but I just awaked up and a cup of coffee will probably help me with this heh ).


In bar 9 of sonata K457 first movement, it goes like;
" G(3/4) - G(1/4) - F#(1/4) - F(1/4) - E(1/4) - Eb(1/4) - D(3/4) - ... "
{ numerical values inside the brackets indicate note duration values.
3/4 = dotted half note
1/4 = quarter note }
six semitones spanning a perfect fourth - there we have a chromatic fourth, and the passage of the sonata creates a rhythm similar to that of the Fantasie.



Allerius said:


> Have you already figured out the thematic resemblance between a moment in the aria "Se il padre perdei" ("If the father I lost") from _Idomeneo_ (K. 366) when the words "la patria, il riposo" are sang and one of the second movement from K. 550 (it also appears somewhere in one of the arias of _Die Zauberflöte_ I think, but I don't remember which)? This always made me think that the Mozart's Great G minor symphony is about the loss of his father.


So you're trying to say, _"why make such a huge deal about K475/K457 when they're just separate pieces?"_ or _"come on, it's just a little improvisational fantasie-piece paired up with just another cookie-cutter sonata of Mozart"_?
If you ask me, I have no problem skipping the "introduction" to Beethoven's 9th symphony 4th movement where I think the themes of previous movements are restated (like a recitative section of an oratorio) rather pedantically in a Beethovenian manner with "stops and starts" and don't work organically with the main body of the movement. =) To me, it's like repeating themes for the sake of repeating, and calling it a "symphony". (composers could somehow get away with that, with the change of society and culture in the post-Classical era.) Each to his own. =)
But I agree that the Eroica symphony 4th movement, the Eroica variations for piano Op.35, the Creatures of Prometheus, and Contradence No.7 from WoO14 aren't cyclically related. Neither are the slow movements of the 6th and the 9th symphonies, (which I pointed out once). And don't get me started on how many times Beethoven does "ba-ba-ba-bam" throughout his oeuvre, (which make me wonder if the "ba-ba-ba-bam" of the 5th symphony is really that significant as people make it out to be OR is he just clinging to his usual habit). =)



Allerius said:


> I also think that there may be a thematic connection between other two sections of this same opera and Beethoven's 5th symphony and Bruckner's 4th, but I don't recall where right now.


I'm also examining (and taking into consideration) the context the "expressions" are placed in, and also the conceptual elements. Not the kind of "superficial bits and pieces" of thematic resemblances so many pairs of unrelated works of classical music exhibit.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> K.475 and K.457 weren't just published together, they were intended to be a "single entity" -_"the pairing presents a classical correlation to the baroque combination of fantasy and fugue."_. And there are many pianists today performing them as one, and most editions of sheet music pair them as one entity -like how conductors today play "repeats" in Mozart, which you once described as if it's "something we just have to accept" (while denigrating Mozart as being too full of "repeats" in the process). Something like Liszt's B minor sonata has "double bar lines" (not "end bar lines") to separate its "movements". Fantasie K475 contains an obvious 4-movement structure ( Adagio / Allegro / Andantino-Più allegro / Tempo I ) in a similar fashion ( and an exploration to find the "right key", like Schumann's C major) . Why not question whether Liszt's sonata is really "cyclic" then? Can we argue it's just an one-movement work titled "sonata"?
> 
> I'm tired of the constant nitpicky attitude (by fans of certain composer) trying to belittle Mozart's experiments. =) You and some other people often complain as if I'm the only "villain" every time, but do look through this thread. Have asked yourself why I talk like this, or this, or this? Look at yourselves, like seriously. =) I think some people are just being jealous, just because their favorite composer did not produce a great masterpiece of one-movement-sonata-cycle. I suspect Woodduck might be one of them. Among many other things I still remember him denigrating Mozart's early liturgical _vocal_ works as being just a ""buttload" of little Wolfie's kyries, credos, agnuses and fugal exercises". =)
> 
> ...


Weird. I really didn't expect this kind of response.

We seem to have a communication problem here - I never wrote that repeats are "something we just have to accept", and in the link you provided I'm defending my position that "in my opinion there's an overuse of repeats in the Classical period", this is, that this period has too many repeats for my taste. I enforced the idea that this is my personal view and not necessarily an absolute truth. I didn't "denigrate" Mozart by stating this, and I'm not aware of any "nitpicky attitude trying to belittle Mozart's experiments" by the members of this discussion at all. You have your own revisionist ideas about music, fruit of personal research, and not necessarily these will be accepted as some great forbidden truth without people challenging your points first. Don't expect that.

When "provoked" (actually when somebody dares to disagree with your truths), of course that you need to have some nonsense trashing on some great masterpiece by some great composer. This is usual coming from you. Knowing that I'm enthusiast of the _Ninth_ (yes, I love it beyond anything that Mozart produced, and I still love Mozart) you have to direct your assault on this particular work when we diverge in our views. This is also usual. *But what I don't get about this particular post is why you had to spend so much poison with me this time if I was only praising your effort and agreeing with you (I said that I really like your findings and that it's my pleasure to read them, and that I though that what you said made sense to me). No, I didn't say that "why make such a huge deal about K475/K457 when they're just separate pieces?" or that "come on, it's just a little improvisational fantasie-piece paired up with just another cookie-cutter sonata of Mozart" like you said I did, this is fruit of your imagination.*

Somehow I though that the thematic connection I make with _Idomeneo_ and the great G minor symphony, yes a personal finding that I, unfortunately, wanted to share, could somehow be relevant to you, but I suppose that attacking a major composer is more important to your agenda. My bad; I apologize for that.

I heartly regret having said what I said in the last post and suppose that our discussion is now over. I don't need more negativity these days, so let's not talk again, please. From now on I'll add you to my ignore list and I suggest that you do the same with me. I also suggest that you don't waste your time answering to this post for I won't read it.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allerius said:


> Somehow I though that the thematic connection I make with _Idomeneo_ and the great G minor symphony, yes a personal finding that I, unfortunately, wanted to share, could somehow be relevant to you, but I suppose that attacking a major composer is more important to your agenda. My bad; I apologize for that.


Mr. Allerius, I think you're resorting to excuses, again. =). Why would you talk about similarities of two irrelevant works, K366 and K550 in the first place? Did you honestly think similarities of these two would constitute "valid examples" to post in this thread? =)
No. You were trying to imply that "_comparing K475 with K457 is like comparing K366 with K550. Mozart is full of this sort of cookie-cutters_", with that sarcastic attitude. =) I don't think you were really praising my effort. You only seem care about two things regarding this thread:
1. If I'm saying anything blasphemous about Beethoven, (who is the "Great Founding Father of Dramatic Cyclic Form in Western Classical Music" in the minds of the Beethovenians).
2. If I'm giving any implication that Beethoven is less innovative than another composer in certain aspects.

In my recent 3 posts ( #75~77 ) , to respect you and other people's demand:
1. I refrained from discussing Beethoven or any other composers in my discussion of the Mozart work. I did not use any superlatives (ex. "the greatest thing ever written") to praise it. I did not compare the work with another composer's to the latter's disadvantage.
2. I respected other people's different perspectives on the true definition of "cyclic form", I did not presume to establish it in my own terms, or impose my own definition on other people to accept it.

Also, look at the OP's first post:


KenOC said:


> I read somewhere that the classical-period composers generally avoided referring directly in one movement of a work to any part of another. *This seems to have been because it was considered kind of "cheating," a cheap way to achieve unity in a multi-movement work.* Nevertheless, Haydn seems to have done this once (can't remember in what symphony) and Beethoven of course in both his 5th and 9th symphonies.
> Question: Are there other examples before Berlioz came along? Symphonies or otherwise?


Forget whether K475/K457 is really "cyclic" by the "Beethoven-centric definition of the term" or whatever that is. In the context of the OP's post, K475/K457 still constitutes an interesting example, and that's why I discussed it. =)
But you were trying to nitpick again, with the attitude _"Oh really? Is that really cyclic?.."_. 
Seriously, what should I have said to please you? Should I have added _"K475/K457 is not cyclic, but 'proto-cyclic'! Of course! dramatic cyclic form had not been invented before Beethoven came along!"_, or something to the effect? =)
I hate to say this, but the Beethoven fandom is the most pedantically dogmatic group of classical music enthusiasts I've ever encountered. =) In my view, they're always throwing tantrums like the guy in the cartoon below. (Sorry, that's my impression.) It seems that the slightest implication that "Beethoven is less innovative or influential than another composer in certain aspects" comes off as "blasphemy" to them. =)

_"That's not how a cyclic work is supposed to be written!" 
"That's not how a fantasie-piece is supposed to be written!"_










Btw, I consider this *5-movement pastoral symphony* written by Knecht around the time Mozart wrote his K475/K457 another valid example to post in this thread. (Please don't kill me for it.) =)

*[ 0:00 ]
[ 20:00 ]*


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

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