# Where are we in music history?



## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

When we look back on the history of music, we seem to have very clear ideas about what the different periods were. We talk about Medieval music, Rennaissance music, then the Baroque, Classical and Romantic periods. Then things start to get fuzzy...

We've got les impressionists, then we talk about neoclassicism, serialism, atonalism, 20th century music... it seems to me though we're slowly settling on _modernism _to bundle as much of the music composed during the first half of the 20th century as possible.

But then, what? I would say the most widespread movement of the last 50 years is _minimalism_. But that is not telling the whole story, is it? Then again, talking about "baroque music" or "romantic music" is simplistic as well.

When our descendants of 200-300 years from now look back on our time as we do on 1700-1800, how will they define the current style? Will they settle on any terms at all?


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Perhaps in a few centuries, our age will simply be known as the age of unprecedented diversification. 

Not sure why it happened, but I think it may have something to do with both socio-economics and technology. Socio-economically, we live in an age of unprecedented equality, and probably unprecedented cultural boiling pots in large cities. The grand lords that were the traditional patrons of "serious" music no longer exist; instead we have the marketplace, where classical CDs can be bought as cheaply as ones by Justin Bieber, and where everyone from ******* country bumpkins to professors of harpsichord can afford to buy music. Every member of the public can freely pursue his own tastes, and boldly claim Master Bieber's work to be every bit as serious as that of Maestro Mahler. 

So there is now a niche for any and every style, and the result is a musical landscape that suddenly includes any and every style. "Classical music" as a genre has become very fuzzily defined indeed, if it can include anything from Pärt to Pavarotti and Friends to film scores. In a sense, classical music is now as dead as Ancient Egyptian painting: we simply re-enjoy already existing work, and much new work in the genre consists of pastiche. 

I don't know if this is a good thing or not. But it is what it is.


----------



## Norse (May 10, 2010)

Postmodernism :tiphat:


----------



## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

Marshall McLuhan said, "We don't know who discovered water. But we're pretty sure it wasn't a fish." You can only be sure about things in the rear view, though historians and Russians will remind you that the past is unpredictable. 

But digital changed everything. A biographer today will set up a project in the common practice: $2m. advance from the publisher, work 10 years, pulp doorstop of 'Bush: His Bequeathal', shipped straight to the landfill.

But there's a young PhD-history candidate who'll write her Obama bio online, incorporating the annotations of her community of amateur editors, and the web amassement will become the text. Comfortably incorporating the best parts of the Death of the Author --which isn't as bad as it sounds to the 20th c. mind. 

Similarly with musicks.

gotta go, bailiff at the door


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Kleinzeit said:


> though historians and Russians will remind you that the past is unpredictable.


Best quote for today. Consider it stolen.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

"Mistah History? He dead."


----------



## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> "Mistah History? He dead."


True dat, true dat.

Excuse me, that's the door....









What the?!


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I find his topic rather interesting. I've written on TC about the fact that prior to the 20th century music was much much less diverse at any particular time. The 20th century saw an explosion of styles/genres. The terms "modern" and "postmodern" may work for now, but in the future they will not since the past is never modern. New terms must be found, but rather than simple terms such as Baroque, Classical, and Romantic, I think there might be compound terms to designate the multiple types of music during specific periods of time. Perhaps people will speak of the _20th century - minimalism_, _20th century - serial_. I suppose serialism itself could work (without the 20th century tag). It will be interesting to see what happens even though I won't be there.


----------



## Guest (May 25, 2013)

Nope.

The fact actually is that any age's diversity gradually becomes perceived less and less as the impulse to generalize, to find grand themes, takes over. (Or, more neutrally, as memories fade.)

It is happening to the twentieth century as well, as witness this remark: "I would say the most widespread movement of the last 50 years is minimalism." (And no, that is not the whole story, by any means.) As witness this remark, too, I trow: "Postmodernism."

Anyway, MacLuhan was spot on, as usual. Things have not gotten more "fuzzy" in recent times. Recent times are _always_ fuzzy. That is, it's not that the twentieth century saw unprecedented change in either diversity or fuzziness. It's a matter of perspective. Every age, _while it is going on,_ is unprecedentedly diverse and fuzzy.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Neopanpolystylism.


----------



## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Neopanpolystylism.


Ha! GIS for neopanpolystylism yielded:









which refers to:
The black swan theory or theory of black swan events is a metaphor that describes an event that is a surprise (to the observer), has a major effect, and after the fact is often inappropriately rationalized with the benefit of hindsight.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I think it's best we not become too self-conscious about this question. Did musicians in 1600 think about this? Were they _worried _about what future posterity would think of them, or what would happen to music style? They knew they were being innovative, but I doubt they ever thought they would hit the end of innovation. This question of defining ourselves in comparison to others (past and future), I think it is defining of our _generation as a whole._ People can't seem to live enough in the present nowadays.

All the words I have to say:

_Let go, and let music happen._


----------



## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

Where are we in the history of music?.......
...
.......near the end!!


----------



## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

magneticghost said:


> where are we in the history of music?.......
> ...
> .......near the end!!











...............ish................


----------



## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

The 20th century saw mixing of diverse styles which always existed but remained separate. Globalisation is a big part of this. Debussy and gamelan, for example. Minimalism, or the ideas of John Cage, probably couldn't have happened without ideas from the Far East...


----------



## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Simple: Post-Post-...-Post-Modernism.


----------



## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

aleazk said:


> Simple: Post-Post-...-Post-Modernism.


or Acutely Overdue Baroque


----------



## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

MagneticGhost said:


> Where are we in the history of music?.......
> ...
> .......near the end!!


I don't think so. 
Do you know how many postmodernists have claimed we were in the end of: history, science, literature, art, mankind! , etc.?, and despite all these clever and well read gentlemen and their catastrophic predictions we are still here, still with our happy lives, and, not so happily, with these postmodernist gentlemen too...


----------



## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

We are, where we've always been, in the cadenza.


----------



## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

quack said:


> We are, where we've always been, in the cadenza.





Wikipedia said:


> In music, a cadenza (from Italian: cadenza, meaning cadence; plural, cadenze) is, generically, an improvised or written-out ornamental passage played or sung by a soloist or soloists, usually in a "free" rhythmic style, and often allowing for virtuosic display.


 .


----------



## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

quack said:


> We are, where we've always been, in the cadenza.


In that case, da capo ...............






eternal return, like


----------



## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Awww buck up Peggy, we all get somewhat poco sotto now and then. I remember when you had the fever, here let Iggy give you a ride.


----------



## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

quack said:


> Awww buck up Peggy, we all get somewhat poco sotto now and then. I remember when you had the fever, here let Iggy give you a ride.











................................


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Kleinzeit said:


> Ha! GIS for neopanpolystylism yielded:
> 
> View attachment 18442
> 
> ...


Rather like that rationale / explanation of how miracles happen -- we just don't see all the steps in the process.


----------



## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

yeah, oy, miracles ahoy


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Why, we're in 2013 a.c.e. (by western dating)... at least that's what people tell me.


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

some guy said:


> Nope.
> Anyway, MacLuhan was spot on, as usual. Things have not gotten more "fuzzy" in recent times. Recent times are _always_ fuzzy. That is, it's not that the twentieth century saw unprecedented change in either diversity or fuzziness. It's a matter of perspective. Every age, _while it is going on,_ is unprecedentedly diverse and fuzzy.


Well, I suppose music in, say, the 19th century, was more diverse than we may think, because then as now there also existed non-classical music in the form of country bands making dance music and so on. Seems to me the classical music of the time was less diverse. Another difference is that in the absence of recordings, much of the pop music of the day is lost, and pop musicians were certainly not dignified with the term "artist" as they are today.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

History will remember this as the last few decades before computers figured out that we might kill them all in a nuclear war and decided to take over in preemptive self-defense. Of course if we ever realize what's happened, it won't be for a few decades at least.

Correspondingly, this is the last era of human music. Thirty years from now, computers will have learned to create music that we like better than humans can create. We will give up trying to perform or create and become just consumers, feeling sorry for past people who had to try to make music themselves and never succeeded very well.


----------



## Guest (May 26, 2013)

brianvds;466734Seems to me the classical music of the [19th century said:


> was less diverse.


Check out some programs from that century. Concert programs.

That'll give you a little taste of how much "classical" music has been lost, too.

And how diverse programming was.

You're looking simply at what's left, what's managed to survive. That's what one gets, looking backwards. The people of the time saw something quite remarkably different. (Something we can get a taste of, but only if we look at more than simply what's managed to survive.)


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

some guy said:


> Check out some programs from that century. Concert programs.
> 
> That'll give you a little taste of how much "classical" music has been lost, too.
> 
> ...


Well, you make a good point, but where do I get hold of concert programs from the time? And were they really as diverse as some programs today, which may include a tonal 19th century overture, a neoclassical piano concerto and an avant garde contemporary piece?


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

science said:


> Correspondingly, this is the last era of human music. Thirty years from now, computers will have learned to create music that we like better than humans can create. We will give up trying to perform or create and become just consumers, feeling sorry for past people who had to try to make music themselves and never succeeded very well.


I don't think it will get as bad as that. At least not any time soon. We have heard for many decades now that true artificial intelligence is just around the corner, but we still do not have anything even remotely approaching it.

I do notice though that the tradition of amateur musicianship seems to be in eclipse: seeing as one can have music at the press of a button, few people bother to learn to play any musical instruments anymore. They are doing themselves a terrible disfavor, if you ask me.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

science said:


> History will remember this as the last few decades before computers figured out that we might kill them all in a nuclear war and decided to take over in preemptive self-defense. Of course if we ever realize what's happened, it won't be for a few decades at least.


Is there some reason you assume this hasn't happened already?


----------



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

science said:


> History will remember this as the last few decades before computers figured out that we might kill them all in a nuclear war and decided to take over in preemptive self-defense. Of course if we ever realize what's happened, it won't be for a few decades at least.


Rather like the Asimov story where they created a super computer and asked it "Is there a God?"

The answer : " There is ...*now*!"


----------

