# Question about rock music ...



## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

I attended a recent concert of the group ASIA which was a great program, but found the volume level to be overwhelming.

My query is simple ... who determined, and when did they determine, that louder was better? If the volume levels were half as loud, it would be just as enjoyable, imho. I found myself covering my ears and wearing hearing protectors at the same time.

So, you ask, why on earth did I attend such an event if I don't care for that volume level? We are volunteer ushers at several concert hall venues where we live and those are part of the mix.

With the exception of rap, I'm not against any genre of music by any means ... nor am I totally "anti loud", but just the same curious as to _who decided_ and _when_ to make it loud.

Kh ♫


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I think it may stem from the early-mid 60s when every band used fairly weedy amplification and, in the case of groups/singers who had a teenybop following (Beatles etc.) they couldn't make themselves heard over the screaming as they never had monitor speakers at the front of the stage as they do now. Then the likes of Marshall started to make powerful amplifiers/speakers and this dovetailed into the kind of sonic oomph that blues-based guitarists such as Jimi Hendrix and Eric Clapton were looking for. Then PA systems became more sophisticated so come the end of the 60s when bands were playing larger venues the option was there to completely fill the hall with sound, even if they weren't from the heavier end of the spectrum.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

When I listen to rock or blues in the car I like to turn it up pretty high only restrained by not wanting to damage my hearing. I think the whole emotional thrust of rock music makes it something that people want to turn up loud. Concerts can be way too loud. I once went to a rock concert and wore hearing protector ear plugs and it was still too loud. It didn't help that I was in the risers that were directly in front on one of the speaker banks. It was either Ted Nugent or ZZ Top, can't remember.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

A lot of rock concerts are way too loud. I heard UK (also featuring John Wetton) a couple of years ago, and it was much too loud. I never heard keyboards played at that decibel level, but Eddie Jobson's volume was ridiculous.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Florestan said:


> When I listen to rock or blues in the car I like to turn it up pretty high only restrained by not wanting to damage my hearing. I think the whole emotional thrust of rock music makes it something that people want to turn up loud. Concerts can be way too loud. I once went to a rock concert and wore hearing protector ear plugs and it was still too loud. It didn't help that I was in the risers that were directly in front on one of the speaker banks. It was either Ted Nugent or ZZ Top, can't remember.


Well, Ted Nugent wears earplugs himself so I guess he wouldn't worry too much. Both Pete Townshend and John Entwistle went fairly deaf after all those years playing live with the Who, as did Tim Bogert, who in the late 60s was one of the loudest bassists around when he was with Vanilla Fudge. The band he was in afterwards, Cactus, were louder still.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Totally agree about excessive volume. One counter example of insufficient volume was a Springsteen gig at Hyde Park last year: we were early enough to get right up near the stage but chose to stand a few rows back, as I was looking after my elderly mum who needs the bathroom very often and I needed to be able to get in and out easily. Even from our fairly good vantage point, the more rollicking numbers were drowned out by people singing along, and the more reflective numbers by loud drunken chatter. I read in reviews the next day that many people were unable to hear anything at all and left early in disgust. Now, it's good that the organisers were mindful of potential noise nuisance in deciding upon decibel levels, but wasn't it rather unethical of them to sell tickets to vastly more people than would be able to actually hear any of the music? Saw the Boss again at Wembley- not my idea. Couldn't see anything, surrounded by inebriated cretins, sound was very loud but harsh and distorted. Surely there's a happy medium when it comes to amplification and acoustics, but it seems to be elusive- or do promoters just think, 'Well they're all a bunch of morons and probably pissed as a fart anyway, so who cares about sound quality.'

Signed, an ex- Springsteen fan


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Don't know who or when, but it's the sure-fire way to guarantee an emotional response, right? The effects of loud noise on human psychology are fairly well studied and known.
It's not as if the inherent qualities of the music are going to do it... ;-)
cheers,
GG


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

The louder the music, the more mistakes are covered over.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Krummhorn said:


> My query is simple ... who determined, and when did they determine, that louder was better?


I would guess that the date was August 15th, 1965. It was the day that the Beatles played in the Shea Stadium New York. This was the first time in the history of music that a stadium was used for a rock concert. The change from indoor venues to outdoor stadiums probably urged a substantial increase in volume, which then became the accepted norm.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Did the venue serve alcohol?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loud_music


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## Wicked_one (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't think this is true only for rock music...

I like my heavy metal as I like my Romantic and Post Romantic era symphonic music: cranked up to 11


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Art Rock makes a good point about the Beatles' Shea gig. If you look at the pictures you can see that the guitarists have one Vox amp/speaker each and Ringo has two microphones for his drum kit (one for the bass drum and the other for the rest) - maybe no-one knew how much sheer noise the crowd were going to generate; perhaps it might have been an idea for someone to sit in the bleachers during soundcheck (if there actually was a soundcheck), but the amplification set-up proved to be totally inadequate for a venue of that size. When the Beatles played the similarly-sized Candlestick Park the following year, their amplification set-up seemed to have doubled.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2014)

starthrower said:


> A lot of rock concerts are way too loud. I heard UK (also featuring John Wetton) a couple of years ago, and it was much too loud. I never heard keyboards played at that decibel level, but Eddie Jobson's volume was ridiculous.


Goodness, didn't know UK were alive! I saw them when the second album came out, the lineup was Jobson, Wetton, Holdsworth and Bruford. Twas a great gig!


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Wagner did, in 1842

(sorry I couldn't resist)

In all seriousness, maybe so you can hear the music over the crowd. Everyone's always screaming their heads off at concerts, and it'd be nice to hear the music you expected to hear when you bought a ticket.

[in case it's not obvious, I _really_ don't like rock/pop concerts]


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## DamoX (Sep 14, 2014)

Some bands say "loudness rules on stage" ... hmmmm.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2014)

DamoX said:


> Some bands say "loudness rules on stage" ... hmmmm.


Name and shame them!!!


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2014)

Cosmos said:


> Wagner did, in 1842
> 
> (sorry I couldn't resist)
> 
> ...


To be vaguely fair, "rock" covers a broad spectrum and "always screaming" has not been my experience generally over the decades.


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## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

I remember watching a documentary on Cream a while back. Unfortunately, I don't recall the title. It might even have been on YouTube. Anyway, the conclusion was that as the size of the crowds grew, they needed larger auditoriums, often not designed with the best acoustics in mind, and the sound just didn't penetrate all that far. Add to that the noise of the crowd, as others in this thread have already mentioned, and you have a significant number of people unable to hear the performance. With the new Marshall amps, that problem was solved, only to introduce the one of damaged hearing.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Of course, a 15yr old will you that if the 4x12 cabinets don't start walking across the stage, it's not loud enough.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

When I was a teenager I used to attend a lot of rock concerts and most of them were pretty loud. The only band I have seen several times over the years and will continue to see is YES. Some venues their sound is just at the right levels and others it's almost unbearably loud. They really don't need it to be so loud because the type of audience that attends, for the most part, are pretty attentive and come to "listen" not party. The last time I saw YES a group called Syd Arthur opened for them and the volume was so loud and distorted that any sense of melody was indiscernible. Next time I attend I will be coming with hearing protection though as my ears were ringing for a couple of days after.

Kevin


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Volume was a problem for me at about half of the rock gigs from the 70's onwards. I used to stick paper hankies in my ears before foam plugs came along! The 1980's were the worst when it seemed that all the up an coming bands wanted to be the loudest. As a rock and blues guitarist I was gigging in the 80's and 90's and we always took great care with the sound levels, especially On stage.
You only get one set of ears!


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## drvLock (Apr 2, 2014)

I'd like to point out that most rock/metal concerts are this loud because of a lot of factors, but mostly because of the energy that those styles bring to the spectators, the tons of people screaming their lungs out and many others. 

To those festivals held on giant places or even single band shows made on any sports arena, I believe it's quite obvious: the music need to reach the ears of those unfortunate enough that are way on the back of the place.

Let's go to a Motörhead gig?


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

I had always wondered about this too. After some research, I must conclude it seems it has become a symbol of pride. The slightly facetious band Manowar points this out frequently -- they not only have two entire songs about it ("All Men Play on 10" and "Blow Your Speakers") and an album title ("Louder Than Hell"), but they also mention it in their lyrics all the time:

We have read your letters, we have heard your call
We were brought together cause we've got the balls
To play the loudest metal, so hard and wild and mean​("Army of the Immortals")

Radio playing this nation wide
Turn it up louder'til we all get fried​("Fighting the World")

Play it loud, don't play it low
Blow your speakers with rock and roll​("Blow Your Speakers")

We don't attract wimps cause we're too loud
Just true metal people that's Manowars crowd
...
Don't try to tell us that we're too loud
Cause there ain't no way that we'll ever turn down​("Kings of Metal")

The Gods made heavy metal and they saw that it was good
They said to play it louder than hell we promised that we would​("The Gods Made Heavy Metal")

True to their claim, they do hold the world-record for world's loudest band, at 129.5 DB. They broke the record again, but the Guinness Book of World Records didn't acknowledge it -- they no longer have the category of "Loudest Performance", because they don't want to encourage hearing damage! The band themselves wear personally designed earplugs, and they encourage promoters to inform their fans it might be a good idea to bring them too. It's hard to take the Manowar lyrics entirely seriously, but there are numerous other examples in rock and metal: Mötörhead's third album was called _Everything Louder Than Everyone Else_, for example...

It's somewhat funny, but this is a ridiculous form of elitism -- "What, you aren't even willing to incur hearing damage for your favorite music? Wimp!" If these "true fans" want to enjoy the music into ripe old age, they might want to be a little more careful! :lol:


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Thanks to everyone for presenting very plausible reasons for the 'excited' volume level of rock concerts. I still wonder though, why the sound engineers can't adjust the volume levels for the particular performance venue. 

I can understand (now) the need for greater amplification in a large arena, but using those same exact levels in a more intimate room that seats 400 at the most seems overkill. 

Once attended a local play on the life of Janis Joplin. The performing hall sat about 560 people and the volume levels were absolutely deafening ... the sound engineer (whose booth was directly behind the last row of seats) couldn't help but to notice the audience members all covering their ears, but kept cranking it up more and more instead. Half the audience left at intermission ... and in the 2nd half, the sound engineer cranked it up even more. We immediately left, stopped at the box office and got a full refund. 

So, I can understand the need for 'volume' ... but for a sound engineer to deliberately pound the audience in that manner, and even worse to crank it up even more with less people in the room was so unprofessional. I mean, the speakers were beginning to break up and the amplifiers were starting to clip under the load ... it was that loud.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Loudness is detrimental to the music and one's eardrums.

My concert loudness experience was Robert Palmer (c1989/0). We were seated in the balcony of this venue, and still cupped our ears. They were ringing well before the concert ended. We left early.

Like standing next to a passenger jet, without protective gear, I imagine.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I would say that Motorhead are the loudest band I've seen. I saw them about 7 times between 1978 and 1983 and the first gig was the most overpowering as I just never imagined how loud it would be, especially as it was at a small venue where the barrage of sound just simply nuked the **** out of the place. The crowd was full of curious punks, grizzled bikers and blitzed-out saucer-eyed Hawkwind fans who jockeyed for position so they could stick their heads in the bass bins. There was more than one pool of vomit on the floor afterwards and I never thought fresh air could be so nectar-like when I finally got outside. 

Things got slightly more dignified than that once they became successful and started attracting far more mainstream rock fans rather than the hardcore maniacs of the early days.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Rock is about rebellion. And playing stuff loud is rebellious. I always take earplugs to rock concerts. I put them in during the songs I don't like so much.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Radames said:


> Rock is about rebellion. And playing stuff loud is rebellious.


Exactly. A rebel does not get his point across by being soft spoken.

I recall one concert way back in the 1970s that was so loud we went to restaurant afterwards and when the guy across the table from me would talk, it sounded like he was talking from the other end of a long hallway. We laughed about it at the time.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

There's even a Japanese band called Loudness! --









Anyhow, bring earplugs to a rock concert -- and don't wear clothes you value: some unfortunate things might happen to them :tiphat:


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## drvLock (Apr 2, 2014)

Krummhorn said:


> Thanks to everyone for presenting very plausible reasons for the 'excited' volume level of rock concerts. I still wonder though, why the sound engineers can't adjust the volume levels for the particular performance venue.
> 
> I can understand (now) the need for greater amplification in a large arena, but using those same exact levels in a more intimate room that seats 400 at the most seems overkill.
> 
> ...


I must say that you were one lucky person to go to a Janis Joplin concert. Most of people don't even know who she was and the importance of her music.

But your story tells me that the problem was with the sound engineer guy, who probably didn't know how to handle a concert in a more small Venue.


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## drvLock (Apr 2, 2014)

Cheyenne said:


> I had always wondered about this too. After some research, I must conclude it seems it has become a symbol of pride. The slightly facetious band Manowar points this out frequently -- they not only have two entire songs about it ("All Men Play on 10" and "Blow Your Speakers") and an album title ("Louder Than Hell"), but they also mention it in their lyrics all the time:
> 
> We have read your letters, we have heard your call
> We were brought together cause we've got the balls
> ...


 Manowar is the most poser band in all history of heavy metal, even more than that hair metal ones like Poison or Mötley Crüe. But they are fun as hell to listen to!


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

drvLock said:


> Manowar is the most poser band in all history of heavy metal, even more than that hair metal ones like Poison or Mötley Crüe. But they are fun as hell to listen to!


Pretty much. As I said I only chanced upon them accidentally while looking into the loudness of rock music, but they sure are fascinating. What exactly their "death to false metal", loincloth-styled image comes from I do not know.









I watched a few hours of backstage, concert and interview footage out of sheer fascination, and must say I can't figure out what the deal is with these guys. You'd say they were only joking, but they seem very sincere at points:

Q: Is it difficult to balance your career as a musician that travels around the world, and, well, simply, family life.
A: I have no life. My family is gonna be in the audience tonight. And my other family is the family that's here, that works with me. There is nothing else. We're like soldiers, you just go out, you fight the battle - if you live you live; if you die, you die a man, a glorious death: and that's it, that's our life.​
It seems mostly the bassist and founder, Joey Demaio, who is serious. Of course, he's also well known for extreme egoism. He felt the need to put two and a half minute bass-guitar solos on the band's first few records for absolutely no reason! Nevertheless he is willing to face that sort of criticism head on. Then there's the fact that they got ORSON WELLES (!!) to record a few segments for them -- and the signing of their contract first big record contract with blood --









They even wanted to donate one of their Golden records to Wagner's grandson and the House of Wagner, but the staff didn't want it, so they hired an orchestra to do their own tribute to Wagner! Apparently they receive quite a lot of mockery. I myself can't help but like ... even admire them a little. Such a strange, strange band. Berlioz seems entirely sane compared to them


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

^
^

Ha ha - I remember that 'sign in blood' pic when it was featured in Kerrang! magazine. Guitarist Ross the Boss used to be with the fun-loving proto-punk band The Dictators - I wonder if this nice Jewish boy from the Bronx really knew what kind of lunacy he was getting involved in when he formed the band with Joey DeMaio!

And if this isn't one of the worst album covers ever - they couldn't even get the flag right...

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608027155951323546&pid=15.1&P=0


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

Yeah honestly, my parents are getting the wrong idea about why I occassionally put on this kind of music 
























And that's while most of their fans are male! The _Blow Your Speakers EP_ cover is equally ridiculous:









Then they removed the women for the full album cover of _Fighting the World_..


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## echo (Aug 15, 2014)

rock is played loud because of the power in volume, it's music for dancing on top of your problems - and if you haven't got an axe to grind, then your just playing cabaret


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Haha, I had never heard of Manowar, this music is hilarious. Listening to them right now - these guys are everything Tenacious D wants to be. :lol:


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Cheyenne said:


> Yeah honestly, my parents are getting the wrong idea about why I occassionally put on this kind of music
> 
> View attachment 54118
> View attachment 54119
> ...


HILARIOUS! As for the Accept poster which would always be better off staying hidden inside the album sleeve, little Udo Dirkschneider reminds me of a cross between Rob Halford and Max Reger.

I remember cringing when I first saw the large poster of a chained-to-the-fence David Lee Roth that was included with the Woman & Children First album...

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608038086632736536&pid=15.1&P=0


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## drvLock (Apr 2, 2014)

Manowar is just one of those poser but good bands out there. There's another called Steel Panther that plays what is called glam metal. All, and I mean ALL their songs are based on two themes: sex and the virility of heavy metal. Crazy dudes...


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2014)

You can't really compare a rock concert and classical "concert" music performed live. It's really about a raw outpour of passion. Therefore, turning down the noise wouldn't really work in this context. It's SUPPOSED to be an aggression on your ears, on social convention, etc. 

That being said, I've never been to a rock concert where I thought the sound was awesome or the musicians truly showed their talent. The problem is usually in the singing, where their attempts at improvising usually betray the fact that they just don't know they're music well enough, or they're drunk (usually the latter!). 

Back in my teens (1992?) I went to see a Metallica live with Guns and Roses in Montreal. James Hetfield could was singing so out of tune it was painful to hear. He was obviously drunk. And then the pyrotechnics misfired and he got hurt and carried to the hospital. After that, Guns decided to end their performance after a few songs, without any explanation, which generated a huge riot. Cars were burned on the streets! That's a rock concert! 

I heard a rock musician say that there are unwritten rules in rock. For example, you HAVE to undergo a detox program at some point in your career. 

I just think that a rock concert where the music wouldn't be loud, people would behave and the musicians were sober wouldn't exactly be a rock concert... 

1)


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

elgars ghost said:


> As for the Accept poster which would always be better off staying hidden inside the album sleeve, little Udo Dirkschneider reminds me of a cross between Rob Halford and Max Reger.


That's an eerily accurate comparison. Now I'll be thinking of elaborate fugues next time I listen to Accept!



elgars ghost said:


> I remember cringing when I first saw the large poster of a chained-to-the-fence David Lee Roth that was included with the Woman & Children First album...


Yeah, David Lee Roth is oddly into that sort of thing. I wonder how many males decided to display that poster of a shirtless, tight leather-pants wearing guitarist with long blonde hairs chained to a fence, shot by a fashion photographer, on their walls!



drvLock said:


> Manowar is just one of those poser but good bands out there. There's another called Steel Panther that plays what is called glam metal. All, and I mean ALL their songs are based on two themes: sex and the virility of heavy metal. Crazy dudes...


Steel Panther is more obviously facetious (and therefore not as amusing), but they certainly are funny in interviews. I don't really like the sound of their music, but the lyrics are fun as far as glam rock parodies go ("Party like Tomorrow is the End of the World", "The Burden of Being Wonderful").


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## drvLock (Apr 2, 2014)

Cheyenne said:


> Steel Panther is more obviously facetious (and therefore not as amusing), but they certainly are funny in interviews. I don't really like the sound of their music, but the lyrics are fun as far as glam rock parodies go ("Party like Tomorrow is the End of the World", "The Burden of Being Wonderful").


 I really don't like their song as a whole. In fact, I was watching a video on their performance at Wacken 2014, and I bet they were using playback. Also, comparing to other bands performances at the same event, their sound was just too "thin". But I really enjoy their guitar parts. Some pretty good riffs and licks.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

drvLock said:


> I really don't like their song as a whole. In fact, I was watching a video on their performance at Wacken 2014, and I bet they were using playback. Also, comparing to other bands performances at the same event, their sound was just too "thin". But I really enjoy their guitar parts. Some pretty good riffs and licks.


Well, they did admit to using bass playback, lol!

We met Lexxi at -- he worked at a hair salon. .. Lexxi didn't play bass at all, he had no idea how to play bass. So when we first started to do our first show, we had all our bass parts on tracks, and he would pretend to be playing. He didn't even have a real bass, he had like a cardboard. Yeah. A cut-out. But nobody cared, because he looked so good. And he started doing all our hair, and.. You know, it worked out really well that he couldn't play. But he still can't play. But he's good looking!​


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

DoReFaMi said:


> You can't really compare a rock concert and classical "concert" music performed live. It's really about a raw outpour of passion. Therefore, turning down the noise wouldn't really work in this context. It's SUPPOSED to be an aggression on your ears, on social convention, etc.
> 
> That being said, I've never been to a rock concert where I thought the sound was awesome or the musicians truly showed their talent. The problem is usually in the singing, where their attempts at improvising usually betray the fact that they just don't know they're music well enough, or they're drunk (usually the latter!).
> 
> ...


:lol::lol::lol:

Such a funny post!

But seriously, most of the talk here has been about metal and hard rock. I've seen just regular rock groups perform at venues and the sound hasn't been _that_ loud. That said I think it is believed the loudness factor produces adrenaline therefore adds an element of excitement to the performance. A lot of people wear ear plugs to these shows and I think that is usually a good choice - one can still hear the music and enjoy it without damaging hearing. I personally don't enjoy overly loud performances, or drunk screaming singers. Generally speaking I do think there is a lot that can be improved upon in terms of live performances in rock.

Lastly I'll add that this thread has started to focus more on rock bands that are either purposely comedic and/or more about image. These kinds of bands make up just one section of the rock that is out there. There are plenty of bands who take their music very seriously and have artistic merit. There is no doubt that within the classical and opera world there are elements of sex and image being sold to consumers as well. I knew a person who told me about some of the wild stuff the opera singers she knew did in their personal lives - it was pretty wild and not much different than the rock star lifestyle we are describing here.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

most of the time for its not loud enough. but thats just me


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## echo (Aug 15, 2014)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> most of the time for its not loud enough. but thats just me


wait till you wake up to tinnitus - trust me kid - turn down the headphones


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

echo said:


> wait till you wake up to tinnitus - trust me kid - turn down the headphones


agh i figure i can last a little longer but ill heed your advice


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have tinnitus that is only apparent in a quiet environment. Therefore, all the more reason to have an earbud playing music as much of the time as possible.


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## Jos (Oct 14, 2013)

View attachment 54531


These guys had my ears ringing for a few days in the late eighties. Live and very loud at the Paradiso, Amsterdam.
Since then I use earplugs or a rolled up piece of tissue when attending loud concerts.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Jos said:


> View attachment 54531
> 
> 
> These guys had my ears ringing for a few days in the late eighties. Live and very loud at the Paradiso, Amsterdam.
> Since then I use earplugs or a rolled up piece of tissue when attending loud concerts.


Funny you mention the Paradiso - I remember having a Soft Machine recording from a gig there in 1968 or 69. Damned loud for a jazz rock trio - Ratledge's Hammond organ sounds like a 747 taking off, Hopper's bass was more of a primordial rumble at times and drummer Wyatt must have played his nuts off to make himself heard.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2014)

Cheyenne said:


> Mötörhead's third album was called _Everything Louder Than Everyone Else_


Motorhead's third album was Bomber, released in 1979. ELTEE was released much later, in 1999.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motörhead_discography


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

gog said:


> Motorhead's third album was Bomber, released in 1979. ELTEE was released much later, in 1999.
> 
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motörhead_discography


Sorry, I meant the third live album.


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## grimtraveller (Dec 1, 2014)

Krummhorn said:


> My query is simple ... who determined, and when did they determine, that louder was better?


As with most things in music, popular culture and history, the true answer isn't as sexy as the myth and for many doesn't make as good reading.
The true answer is that volume in popular music was an evolution that took in many of the reasons that have been touched on in this thread.
For example, the screaming at Beatle gigs plays a part.....but only a small one. Girls screamed their lungs out in the 70s at Bay City roller and T. Rex gigs too but those bands {and others} had seriously loud amplification and were still hard to hear above the screams sometimes. And in the mid 60s you had bands like the Kinks and the Who who were super loud before the Marshalls came along but who never really attracted the screamers.
For a number of groups back then, loudness was a statement, an attitude. Long before they played stadiums, the Who were loud. And many of the fans that went to gigs discovered that for _them_ loudness _was_ better. In the late 70s and early 80s, I was the same. Long before I'd gone to any gig or knew about the "etiquette" of heavy metal or that loudness had sociological relevance, I just liked my music loud. When I went to weddings as a kid or parties as a teenager, the music was played loud. And as I've gotten older {I'm 51} I still love all the music that I did back then but I don't like it at ear shattering levels. As I drive about, I still have it up quite loud {partly to be above road sounds} but I avoid gigs and parties partly because I'm bored of such, but partly because that level of volume does nothing for me anymore.
So in answer to the question, artists, fans and technology for varying reasons all converged to create the status quo we see today. Sometimes, once the genie is out of the bottle, for better or worse, he ain't going back !


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

grimtraveller said:


> And in the mid 60s you had bands like the Kinks and the Who who were super loud before the Marshalls came along but who never really attracted the screamers.


I get your point(s) but the Kinks were an exception for their first few years - if you listen to their Live at Kelvin Hall album from a 1967 Glasgow gig the audience is definitely of the girlie teenybopper variety! But as is usually the way the teenyboppers had pretty much ditched the band in force once the big hits got thinner on the ground as the late 60s wore on.


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## grimtraveller (Dec 1, 2014)

At the Notting Hill Carnival in 1982, I was standing next to a bass speaker in the rain as this record played. Now, any of you that listen to reggae know how bass heavy reggae was in it's first 20 years. Well, the music coming from this speaker into my right ear was so loud, it was the first time I ever actually _felt_ music rather than heard it. It was impossible to differentiate one bass note from another. I felt even then, that it was like eating a chili so hot that it burns your mouth and makes food impossible to actually taste. And that defeats the object for me.
But later that year I was at an AC/DC gig and they were phenomenally loud. They began the gig playing "Hell's bells" and they had this huge bell on stage. When one of the band hit the bell {it was bigger than _him_} I thought my skull was going to crack open. The Support band, Y&T, had been loud but AC/DC were LOUD. I couldn't even hear the bass ! It was a great gig though.
It wasn't until I was on the bus going home that I noticed that I couldn't hear the rumble of the bus or the people around me talking ! I kept swallowing like you do on a plane when your hearing goes but it made no difference. I could barely hear a thing. Watching TV was an odd experience because I couldn't hear what was being said. I was like that for nearly 36 hours and the funny thing was, I had an interview for a bricklayer/electrician/plumber's course the next morning.
Needless to say, I never got on the course. They must've thought I was a right drag_oon_ !


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I think that it's a band by band thing. The last rock concert was over 10 years and that was Steely Dan. It wasn't over-miked or anything and I could hear the acoustics fairly well.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Krummhorn said:


> I attended a recent concert of the group ASIA which was a great program, but found the volume level to be overwhelming.
> 
> My query is simple ... who determined, and when did they determine, that louder was better? If the volume levels were half as loud, it would be just as enjoyable, imho. I found myself covering my ears and wearing hearing protectors at the same time.
> 
> ...


*This is not a flawed aesthetic of rock; *I think big PA systems, and the way they are used, is to blame. At first, instruments had their own amplifiers, which were built to carry sufficient volume with no assistance or miking through a PA. The PA was used only for vocals in those days, which is still the way many bands do it in smaller venues.
But when soundmen began to take over, with their huge PA systems and arrays of speakers and harsh-sounding horns, and drums were individually miked, things got out of hand.

*The industry practice of miking or running the whole band through the PA is the real culprit.* I'd rather see a band in a smaller venue, where the individual amps can still be heard, without being run through those trebley PA horns. I think horns should be banned.


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