# Furtwangler's Brahms: Warner or Music and Arts?



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Warner Classics has issued another bargain box, this time of Furtwantler's recordings of Brahms' symphonies. But for around $10 more, there is the Music & Arts set. 

Is anyone familiar with these sets to make recommendations? Are the selections on the Music & Arts set worth the extra money, or is the Warner set good enough?


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Definitely Music & Arts. Both the 1st and 2nd from that set are must gets. 

I personally prefer the M&A 3rd as well, though opinions are more split here.

You can’t go wrong with any of his 4ths. I personally rank them: (1) 1949 Wiesbaden, (2) 1943 M&A, (3) 1948 EMI


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I find it difficult to buy Furtwangler records or even to know what I have when I do. There are so many of his recordings of the major pieces and they can vary quite a bit and not just in recording quality. Is there a comprehensive guide to them anywhere on the site?


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

My own ranking of Furtwängler recordings:

1. Beethoven, Symphony No. 9 (3/22/42)
2. Brahms, Symphony No. 1: 4th movement (1945)
3. Bruckner, Symphony No. 8 (1944)
4. Beethoven, Coriolan overture (1943)
5. Wagner, Tristan und Isolde (1952)
6. Beethoven, Symphony No. 5 (5/25/1947)
7. Brahms, Symphony No. 1 (1951)
8. Beethoven, Symphony No. 3 (1944)
9. Bruckner, Symphony No. 9 (1944)
10. Wagner, Der Ring des Nibelungen excerpts (1937)
11. Brahms, Symphony No. 4/Mozart, Symphony No. 40 (1949)
12. Tchaikovsky, Symphony No. 6 (Pathetique) (1951)
13. Schubert, Symphonies Nos. 8 & 9 (1953)
14. Mozart, Don Giovanni (1953)
15. Beethoven, Symphony No. 6 (Pastoral) (5/23/54)
16. Brahms, Symphony No. 2 (1945)
17. Schumann, Symphony No. 4 (1953)
18. Wagner, Der Ring des Nibelungen (1950)
19. Beethoven, Symphonies Nos. 7 & 8 (5/53)
20. Bruckner, Symphony No. 5 (1942)
21. Brahms, Requiem (1947)
22. Beethoven, Fidelio (1953 live)
23. R. Strauss, Sinfonia domestica (1944)
24. Beethoven, Symphony No. 4 (1943)
25. Brahms, Symphony No. 3 (1954)
26. Bruckner, Symphony No. 7 (5/1/51)
27. Haydn, Symphony No. 88 (12/5/1951)
28. Mozart, Serenade No. 10 (Gran Partita)
29. R. Strauss, Till Eulenspiegel’s lustige Streiche (1943)
30. Bruckner, Symphony No. 4/Schumann, Symphony No. 1 (10/29/51)


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

If you're really into Furtwangler, this new set of recordings from the Berlin Phil archives should interest you:
https://www.berliner-philharmoniker-recordings.com/radio-recordings.html


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> My own ranking of Furtwängler recordings:
> 
> 1. Beethoven, Symphony No. 9 (3/22/42)
> 2. Brahms, Symphony No. 1: 4th movement (1945)
> ...


Yeah, but could we get a list from someone who knows something about Furtwängler recordings???

V


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Varick said:


> Yeah, but could we get a list from someone who knows something about Furtwängler recordings???
> 
> V


Well, considering I have all of them...


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

The essential purchases for a Furtwängler newbie are these M&A boxsets:

Beethoven symphonies, WWII recordings
Brahms symphonies 
Bruckner symphonies 4-9

And the following:

Tristan und Isolde (EMI)
Complete RIAS recordings (Audite)
Schumann, Symphony No 4 (DG)
Wagner, Ring cycle (1950 on Gebhardt or Pristine)
Mozart, Don Giovanni (1953 on Orfeo)
Tchaikovsky, Symphony No 6 (1951 on DG, or 1938 on Dutton or Naxos)


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> I find it difficult to buy Furtwangler records or even to know what I have when I do. There are so many of his recordings of the major pieces and they can vary quite a bit and not just in recording quality. Is there a comprehensive guide to them anywhere on the site?


John Ardoin's "The Furtwängler Record":


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> The essential purchases for a Furtwängler newbie are these M&A boxsets:
> 
> (snip)
> Mozart, Don Giovanni (1953 on Orfeo)


I've been eying this one for a while. I have this performance on Music & Arts - does the Orfeo sound substantially better?


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

wkasimer said:


> I've been eying this one for a while. I have this performance on Music & Arts - does the Orfeo sound substantially better?


I wouldn't say substantially. I still own the Gala version I bought first and think it may still be my favorite transfer. Orfeo has greater presence and clarity but also can sound a little harsh in loud passages. You can't go wrong with any of the three transfers. I guess that's why I still have all three!

The EMI recording the following year sounds much better. I like the 1953 slightly better due to faster tempos and a stronger Commendatore, but there are definitely days that the I crave the better sound of the 1954.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I posed a question in another thread, but this seems like the better spot (pardon). Were these recordings remastered by Warner's after they got them from EMI?


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

One more plus for the M&A set is you get the outstanding final movement of the 1945 Brahms 1st, one of Furtwangler's greatest recordings (see my list above)

I will say that Tahra and DG have better remasterings of the symphonies found on the M&A set, and I actually slightly prefer the 1949 Wiesbaden 4th which is also found on Tahra. It is coupled with an equally outstanding Mozart 40.

The 1945 2nd has the least amount of difference so far as I can tell between the DG Wiener Philharmoniker CD single and the M&A set.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

You could get the Pristine set (https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pabx026)--first two are the same performances as in the EMI and the second two are the same performances in the M&A, and all are in much better sound than either EMI or M&A.

And if you decide you'd like the first from the same performance as the M&A or the last two using the same performances from EMI, but again in much better sound, Pristine has those as standalones too. I found the differences in sound quality to be legitimately shocking--the M&A and EMI sound like half an orchestra and the Pristine sounds like the full band. You can preview a few minutes from the Pristine vs the EMI or M&A on Presto, if you want to hear the difference.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

howlingfantods said:


> You could get the Pristine set (https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pabx026)--first two are the same performances as in the EMI and the second two are the same performances in the M&A, and all are in much better sound than either EMI or M&A.
> 
> And if you decide you'd like the first from the same performance as the M&A or the last two using the same performances from EMI, but again in much better sound, Pristine has those as standalones too. I found the differences in sound quality to be legitimately shocking--the M&A and EMI sound like half an orchestra and the Pristine sounds like the full band. You can preview a few minutes from the Pristine vs the EMI or M&A on Presto, if you want to hear the difference.


Actually, Pristine offers the same great 1951/NDR 1st available from Tahra and M&A separately:










You can then add the '45 2nd on DG and the '54 3rd and '43 4th on Pristine (though I still vote for the '49 Wiesbaden 4th on Tahra)


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Actually, Pristine offers the same great 1951/NDR 1st available from Tahra and M&A separately:


Yeah, that's what I was referring to here:
_
And if you decide you'd like the first from the same performance as the M&A ... but again in much better sound, Pristine has those as standalones too. _

I personally opted for the 1st and 2nd from the set (https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pasc340, https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pasc341), but the 3rd and 4th from 49 and 48 (https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pasc456)--so basically I bought the Pristine versions of the EMI set. I suppose I've grown fond of the performances used in the EMI set over the years where that was the only Furtwangler set I had, so I just opted to replace those exact performances with the significantly better SQ from Pristine.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Does anyone here own the Warner set? I bought my set as a download, and it did not come with a pdf booklet. I'm wondering if the booklet says it was remastered.

As a comparison, the Warner Furtwangler Beethoven box does say it was remastered. There is no similar language on the Brahms box, but I thought it could be in the booklet.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

jegreenwood said:


> Does anyone here own the Warner set? I bought my set as a download, and it did not come with a pdf booklet. I'm wondering if the booklet says it was remastered.
> 
> As a comparison, the Warner Furtwangler Beethoven box does say it was remastered. There is no similar language on the Brahms box, but I thought it could be in the booklet.


This is what you're referring to? 








If so, I would guess that it hasn't been remastered--there's no mention of remastering on Warner's own website (generally they'll mention a remaster) and the copyright statement on the back only copyrights the compilation (i.e. this specific assemblage of works), not the recordings themselves, which they generally do if they're releasing a new remaster--note the several references to the remaster on the Beethoven set on the copyright statement and generally in the back, where's there's no mention on the Brahms set.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

jegreenwood said:


> Does anyone here own the Warner set? I bought my set as a download, and it did not come with a pdf booklet. I'm wondering if the booklet says it was remastered.
> 
> As a comparison, the Warner Furtwangler Beethoven box does say it was remastered. There is no similar language on the Brahms box, but I thought it could be in the booklet.


I do own the set. There is no mention of any remastering, like howlingfantods indicated.

But beware -- when I was looking into buying the download of this set I noticed that the digital release was really poorly done. Tracks were mislabelled, and through a little investigation I discovered the Requiem was actually duplicated while one of the symphonies (I've forgotten which one now) was missing altogether. So I ended up buying the actual cds which did not have this problem. I'm not sure if they've fixed the problem with the downloadable version yet or not...


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

The EMI mastering is one of those classic EMI hatchet jobs too, erase the top end, all about noise reduction at the expense of being able to actually hear the music making. Really, I can't say enough how vastly better the Pristine sounds.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

WildThing said:


> I do own the set. There is no mention of any remastering, like howlingfantods indicated.
> 
> But beware -- when I was looking into buying the download of this set, I noticed that the digital release was really poorly done. Tracks were mislabelled, and through a little investigation I discovered the Requiem was actually duplicated while one of the symphonies (I've forgotten which one now) was missing altogether. So I ended up buying the actual cds which did not have this problem. I'm not sure if they've fixed the problem with the downloadable version yet or not...


I haven't listened to the entire set yet, but I checked out a number of tracks, including the first movement of all four symphonies, and all seems well. I got mine as a FLAC download from Presto.

I have a discussion going as to why I thought it might be a remaster in this thread starting at post 854 if anyone is interested. See in particular post 870 - 873.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

The new DG Furt complete boxset has a ton better performances than the EMI set. Some of his best Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, and Schubert symphonies, Wagner orchestral music, Tchaikovsky Pathetique, Strauss tone poems...across the board better performances than the EMI. I called it a goldmine and it certainly is that. All it’s missing is a Beethoven Eroica and Pastoral and a Brahms 4th. (all best supplemented with postwar Tahra). The VPO Beethoven 9th is an overlooked recording. It’s one of his best.

Of course everyone needs the EMI Tristan which you can get separately. I would also throw in the EMI Don Giovanni (ironically DG has the DVD of the same performance.

Otherwise the new DG set is as complete a survey of Furtwängler’s best recordings as we have yet seen. A gold mine.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Looked at listing for the DG set and it appears that I was wrong about the 1953 VPO Beethoven 9th being included. A shame because it is a very good performance in good sound. I did notice that the Don Giovanni DVD is included, which is a major bonus.

Just to give you an idea of the difference between the two sets, I went back to my ranked Furtwangler recordings from the previous page. Items from the EMI complete set are in red. Items from the DG/Decca complete set are in blue.

1. Beethoven, Symphony No. 9 (3/22/42)
2. Brahms, Symphony No. 1: 4th movement (1945)
3. Bruckner, Symphony No. 8 (1944)
4. Beethoven, Coriolan overture (1943)
5. Wagner, Tristan und Isolde (1952)
6. Beethoven, Symphony No. 5 (5/25/1947)
7. Brahms, Symphony No. 1 (1951)
8. Beethoven, Symphony No. 3 (1944)
9. Bruckner, Symphony No. 9 (1944)
10. Wagner, Der Ring des Nibelungen excerpts (1937)
11. Brahms, Symphony No. 4/Mozart, Symphony No. 40 (1949)
12. Tchaikovsky, Symphony No. 6 (Pathetique) (1951)
13. Schubert, Symphonies Nos. 8 & 9 (1953)
14. Mozart, Don Giovanni (1953)
15. Beethoven, Symphony No. 6 (Pastoral) (5/23/54)
16. Brahms, Symphony No. 2 (1945)
17. Schumann, Symphony No. 4 (1953)
18. Wagner, Der Ring des Nibelungen (1950)
19. Beethoven, Symphonies Nos. 7 & 8 (5/53)
20. Bruckner, Symphony No. 5 (1942)
21. Brahms, Requiem (1947)
22. Beethoven, Fidelio (1953 live)
23. R. Strauss, Sinfonia domestica (1944)
24. Beethoven, Symphony No. 4 (1943)
25. Brahms, Symphony No. 3 (1954)
26. Bruckner, Symphony No. 7 (5/1/51)
27. Haydn, Symphony No. 88 (12/5/1951)
28. Mozart, Serenade No. 10 (Gran Partita)
29. R. Strauss, Till Eulenspiegel's lustige Streiche (1943)
30. Bruckner, Symphony No. 4/Schumann, Symphony No. 1 (10/29/51)

But even this does not tell the whole story, because the DG set includes excellent alternative recordings of the Beethoven 5th (1943 and 1947), Brahms 1st (BPO 1952), Bruckner 7th (1951 Cairo), and Schubert 8th (1952) and 9th (1942 and 1951), not to mention the Don Giovanni DVD.

The main works you are missing from DG are the Beethoven 3th, 6th, and 9th, Brahms 4th, Mozart 40th, and the Wagner Tristan and Ring cycle.

My recommendations for good sounding supplements to the DG set for these works are:

Beethoven 3rd (12/8/52) and 6th (1954) - issued together by Tahra
Beethoven 9th (1954 Lucerne) - on Audite
Brahms 4th/Mozart 40th (1949 Wiesbaden) - issued together by Tahra
Wagner, Ring (1950 La Scala) - Gebhardt or Pristine 
Wagner, Tristan und Isolde - EMI

By the way, someone on Amazon is selling the Gebhardt Ring for only $45!


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## Danielxtsau (Jan 24, 2018)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> The new DG Furt complete boxset has a ton better performances than the EMI set. Some of his best Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, and Schubert symphonies, Wagner orchestral music, Tchaikovsky Pathetique, Strauss tone poems...across the board better performances than tyhe EMI. I called it a goldmine and it certainly is that. All it's missing is a Beethoven Eroica and Pastoral and a Brahms 4th. (all best supplemented with postwar Tahra). The VPO Beethoven 9th is an overlooked recording. It's one of his best.
> 
> Of course everyone needs the EMI Tristan which you can get separately. I would also throw in the EMI Don Giovanni (ironically DG has the DVD of the same performance.
> 
> Otherwise the new DG set is as complete a survey of Furtwängler's best recordings as we have yet seen. A gold mine.


If not mistaken, "Don Giovanni" on DG/DVD and EMI/CD are not of the same performance, though both are recorded in 1954. At the very least, the cast is bit different.

DG/DVD has Lisa Della Casa as Donna Elvira…
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7937848--mozart-don-giovanni-k527

EMI/CD has Elizabeth Schwarzkopf as Donna Elvira…
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8436493--mozart-don-giovanni-k527


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