# How do you rank Puccini's operas?



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

With Le Villi earlier this weekend, I have now seen all 12 Puccini operas on DVD/Blu-ray - he is one of the few opera composers whose entire operatic works have been released on visual media (with Mozart, and maybe a few others, I haven't checked - certainly those with a small number of operas, like Beethoven, Berg... but let's not count those).

So I thought it would be interesting to rank all 12 by order of preference, and see how you guys rank them.

My ranking would be:

1. La Bohème
2. Il Tabarro (yes, I know, I should have ranked first the much more famous ones, but what can I say, I don't like some of them very much).
3. Gianni Schicchi (see above)
4. La Rondine, minus the final act
5. Tosca
6. Madama Butterfly
7. Turandot up to the point when it's still Puccini
8. La Fanciulla del West
9. Le Villi
10. Edgar
11. Manon Lescault
12. Suor Angélica

I know that my ranking is controversial, but that's the way I feel. You?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

-1 La Bohème

-2 Turandot 
-3 Tosca
-4 Madama Butterfly
-5 Gianni Schicchi 

-6 Manon Lescault
-7 La Fanciulla del West

-8 La Rondine
-9 Suor Angélica
10 Il Tabarro 

I've never heard La Villi or Edgar. La Boheme is number one, but numbers two to five may be ranked differently depending on which day you ask. Six and seven is also a virtual draw. Eight to ten are somewhat weaker than the others in my opinion, but I like all ten of them really.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I seldom like ranking works in order from first to last, but prefer to grade them into tiers/groups, just like students get grades. I'll stick with tier one, which will surprise nobody: _La Boheme_, _Tosca_, _Butterfly_, _Turandot_. The rest, I think I can lump them into tier two, without any further tiers. Also, I don't really know _Le Villi_ - is there a DVD etc. for this?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I seldom like ranking works in order from first to last, but prefer to grade them into tiers/groups, just like students get grades. I'll stick with tier one, which will surprise nobody: _La Boheme_, _Tosca_, _Butterfly_, _Turandot_. The rest, I think I can lump them into tier two, without any further tiers. Also, I don't really know _Le Villi_ - is there a DVD etc. for this?


Yes, there is a DVD for Le Villi - not very good, though, but still OK, I guess. I have reviewed it, you can find it in the Puccini thread of the sub-forum.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> -1 La Bohème
> 
> -2 Turandot
> -3 Tosca
> ...


Interesting that Il Tabarro is your last and my second.
I don't know what I have against Tosca. I was never able to fully open up to it. It reminds me of Alan's trouble with certain operas that he knows should be good but can't manage to like. I think it's the same case with Tosca, for me.
And Madama Butterfly is too weepy and melodramatic in my opinion. 
I do recognize that both have outstanding arias.
But then, after La Bohème, I like a lot the two one-hour compact ones, I think Il Tabarro is a small masterpiece of late verismo and its score is sort of the precursor of cinema music, very atmospheric; and I think Gianni Schicchi is just a delicious opera buffa with beautiful melody. La Rondine without the messy last act is quite pleasant. Turandot is a difficult opera, and I should like it more since I do like modernist opera and Turandot is one of the precursors. But again, I've been unlucky with it, and the let down at the end (not poor Puccini's fault, of course) also hinders my enjoyment of it. La Fanciulla I don't really like, and Le Villi is a silly little thing, but with merits. I guess I didn't dare ranking it higher, but I may even like it more than La Fanciulla. The last three on my list I definitely don't like - Manon Lescault is a mess from the theatrical standpoint with large stretches of the story missing so that the final act looks quite incomprehensible (I do know the story from the source material, but the opera shouldn't have omitted it like this, and Massenet's Manon is much better). Edgar and Suor Angélica I just find musically disappointing to me.

So this is my justification for my ranking, but I'm fully aware that it is idiosyncratic, and that a lot of what I just said can be easily challenged; it's not really objective, but just based on my personal likes and dislikes.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't know them all but I have to admit I don't like La bohème that much now.

1. Tosca

2. Edgar
3. Manon Lescault
4. Turandot

5. Madama Butterfly
6. La fanciulla del West

7. Gianni Schicchi
8. Suor Angélica
9. Il tabarro
10. La bohème

Don't know Rondine or Le Villi


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

1. La Fanciulla del West
2. Tosca
What can I say, I'm a Mills and Boon girl when it comes to opera. And I have a weakness for heroic tenors and sexy badass baritones.

3. La Bohème
It's 3 because I get pissed off with all the boyish bohemianism.

4. Madama Butterfly
5. Turandot
(Love the music, hate the plots)

Manon Lescaut
La Rondine, minus the final act

Can't get excited about the rest, although I haven't seen le Villi.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm not familiar with "Edgar," but here are my rankings for the others:
1. Tosca
2. Madama Butterfly
3. Turandot
4. La Fanciulla del West
5. Manon Lescaut
6. La Rondine
7. Il Trittico
8. La Boheme
9. Le Villi


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

:trp: _"And here are the votes from Texel...."_
1. Il Tabarro
2 La Fanciulla del West
3 Tosca
4 Manon Lescaut 
5 La Bohème
6 Suor Angélica
7 Gianni Schicchi
8 Le Villi
9 Turandot
10 Le Villi
11 La Rondine

Suor Angélica makes me go soft, because of "The Sound of Music" & Louis de Funès movies, where the nuns are so merry (the best is the one in the 2CV). Il Tabarro & La Fianciulla have atmosphere unspoiled by doodles à la Ping Pong & Pang or student foolery. Last comes La Rondine, because of the apparent lack of inspiration and Le Villi for being unbalanced/ immature.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

TxllxT said:


> :trp: _"And here are the votes from Texel...."_
> 1. Il Tabarro
> 2 La Fanciulla del West
> 3 Tosca
> ...


You have Le Villi both at 8th and 10th place.

This thread shows an interesting fact: there is no consensus whatsoever about Puccini's operas! People's lists are wildly different from each other, in a way that I believe is more pronounced than for other major opera composers.

Not many will stray from ranking the Da Ponte operas and Magic Flute as the top 4 Mozart operas.
Verdi will always have Trav-Trov-Rig up there, with a little more variation in what follows (our own Annie of course will always rank Simon Boccanegra on top).
Wagner will often have the Ring and Tristan und Isolde up there, with some variation in the middle and things like Rienzi and The Flying Dutchman closer to the bottom.
Donizetti will have L'Elisir d'Amore and La Fille du Regiment up there, followed by the Queens operas, and so forth.
Bellini's Norma and Il Puritani will often come on top.

With plus or minus individual variation (the above of course are not absolutes), this is often what we see.

So why is it that Puccini's operas are assessed so differently by individual opera lovers?

Any theories?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> With plus or minus individual variation (the above of course are not absolutes), this is often what we see.


As you say, variation. With Verdi, at least as much as Puccini. I actualy have Trav/Don Carlos/Otello on top. Simon Boccanegra, Aida and Falstaff next. Rigoletto gives me the heebee jeebees (spelling?) because of the decadence and unpleasant characters and Trov is too silly, although I usually fancy Luna.

Although I love the Ring, my other favourite Wagner, by far, is Lohengrin.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

TxllxT said:


> Suor Angélica makes me go soft, because of "The Sound of Music" & Louis de Funès movies, where the nuns are so merry (the best is the one in the 2CV)


Another de Funès fan! That man makes me laugh like a drain, and I loved the nuns in the 2CV. Was that La Grande Vadrouille?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)




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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

You a fan too Gaston? How cool is that!


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## BalloinMaschera (Apr 4, 2011)

musically, Turandot is probably his best opera (ie: Orchestration)

for myself- for sheer entertainment and drama- tosca takes the cake

also up there is suor angelica... it has his only mezzo creation of consequence (suzuki doesn't really propell the plot)... the princepessa is at once magisterial and evil - great stuff, when done well

boheme is to me, too often too lovely (and predictable!)


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

mamascarlatti said:


> You a fan too Gaston? How cool is that!


Not all of his movies are good, but HE usually is.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Interesting varieties of reception here! Puccini is a strange phenomenon for me too. On the one hand there are three operas that have provided me with my most supreme operatic experiences in more than 30 years of listening:

*La Boheme
Suor Angelica
La Rondine (1st two acts)*

Then there are two operas which have lots of fabulous arias, but which, as operas, come a long way down my list (for various reasons, including plots that I find unpleasant or uninteresting):

*Tosca
Madama Butterfly.*

And the rest? Well, if I could never hear them again it wouldn't bother me much. [Don't know Edgar (UW) or Le Villi.]


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

*My version of Suor Angélica*






Once you get the tune between your ears, it will stay there the whole summer


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> So why is it that Puccini's operas are assessed so differently by individual opera lovers?
> 
> Any theories?


I'm not sure that they are. Maybe they are here, but in the opera world at large La Boheme, Tosca, Turandot and Madama Butterfly are clearly the most popular ones, and in that exact order at that and Manon Lescaut is probably number five. Gianni Schicchi is a real critics favorite and also loved by fans, but it (comparitively) suffers in terms of it's number of stagings from the fact that it's a one act opera. La Fancuilla del West it seems to me is (with good reason) the one who's reputation has grown the most in recent times. Same could be said despite it's weak final act about La Rondine, thanks to some degree to the efforts of Gheorghiu and Alagna who have championned it. But anyway, in terms of popularity the top five Puccini operas are more or less established in my opinion.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> You a fan too Gaston? How cool is that!


Count me in. When I lived in France I watched all of his movies and couldn't stop laughing.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

The obvious "adjunct exercise" to all of this is to review our own "Talk Classical 100 Most Recommended Operas" sticky, and see how Puccini operas showed up in that ranking:

1. La Bohème (8th overall)
2. Tosca (16th overall)
3. La Fanciulla del West (35th overall)
4. Turandot (44th overall)
5. Madama Butterfly (45th overall)
6. Gianni Schicchi (70th overall)
7. La Rondine (85th overall)
8. Suor Angelica (99th overall)

I'm pretty much okay with this order. The one thing that might be a little surprising on the surface is _Fanciulla_ edging out _Turandot_ & _Butterfly_. Still, I think it's entirely defensible to say that _Fanciulla_ is a slightly under-appreciated opera that deserves more hearings than it gets.

I would expect a similar or greater degree of variance with a listing of Verdi operas than we have seen with Puccini operas.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

1) Suor Angelica: yes, I know it's decried as "overly sentimental" Well, I am a sentimental person. Senza mama is my favorite aria of any opera.

2) Madama Butterfly

3) La Boheme

4) Turandot

5) Tosca

I will add, of the individual arias, I prefer Turandot's and Tosca's over La Boheme's. However I'm ranking them on a whole.

A couple other notes: I've only seen Madama Butterfly in full, and part of La Boheme, so I'm not ranking based on visuals. Also, I've listened to some of the first act of La Rondine and liked it, but only once. So I can't really rank it as of yet.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Sonata said:


> 1) Suor Angelica: yes, I know it's decried as "overly sentimental"


Only by those who don't understand it as we do.



> Also, I've listened to some of the first act of La Rondine and liked it, but only once. So I can't really rank it as of yet.


But you will. You will.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

1- Madama Butterfly (for many reasons is my favorite italian opera)

2- Turandot

3- Tosca

4- La Bohème

5- Gianni Schicchi 
6- La fanciulla del West
7- Manon Lescault


Note: The last three I've heard only fragments. The other Puccini's operas I've never had a chance to listen.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

First post so greetings to everybody in the boards.

Puccini s one of my favorite composer although I never listened to Le Villi, Edgar, Rondine and Manon.
My personal rank would be:

1) Turandot - genius work, too bad he died before completing it.
2) Gianni Schicchi - fantastic comic opera, a genre you won't expect from Puccini. Best libretto in a Puccini Opera IMO.
3) Madama Butterfly
4) La Boheme
5) Tosca - like Almaviva I know this a good opera but it never clicked with me as other works by Puccini
6) Il Tabarro
7) La fanciulla del west
8) Suor Angelica


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## CameraEye (Nov 18, 2011)

My favourites:

1) I can´t choose between Tosca and La Boheme

2) Turandot

3) Madama Butterfly

4)Gianni Schicchi


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Bardamu said:


> First post so greetings to everybody in the boards.
> 
> Puccini s one of my favorite composer although I never listened to Le Villi, Edgar, Rondine and Manon.
> My personal rank would be:
> ...


Hello Bardamu & welcome to the forum.

For me it varies - all depends on the production & the singers.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Welcome to the forum Bardamu.

I love Puccini too, although I do have trouble with the characters in Turandot, too unsympathetic.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

Puccini does not for some reason rank too high on my list of favorite composers. I guess I like Tosca the best followed by La Boheme. the others, well, I don't really care at all.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Welcome to the forum Bardamu.
> 
> I love Puccini too, although I do have trouble with the characters in Turandot, too unsympathetic.


Indeed Turandot and Calaf are more deities than normal characters.
With their bizzare and absolutistic behaviour they are careless and harm those who are near them like the little Liu.
The final Turandot transformation from a vengeful icy princess to a warm lover is not credible at all without the fable-like mood that define the entire Opera ( probably why Puccini had so much difficulties to complete the work ).


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

GoneBaroque said:


> Puccini does not for some reason rank too high on my list of favorite composers. I guess I like Tosca the best followed by La Boheme. the others, well, I don't really care at all.


You are right it's all too Hollywood and Mantovani.


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## rsmithor (Jun 30, 2011)

*Puccini Still Lives*

1. Tosca
2. Madama Butterfly
3. Gianni Schicchi
4. Turandot
5. La Boheme
6. La Fanciulla del West
7. Manon Lescaut
8. La Rondine
9. Il Trittico
10. Le Villi

Today the Met Broadcast "Madama Butterfly" A stunning production... My 2011 DVD Christmas Gift


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## Moscow-Mahler (Jul 8, 2010)

BTW, *Gianni Schicchi* was Georg Solti's favourite opera by Puccini


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

La Boheme is the only one I enjoy from beginning to end in any capacity. Turnadot may be my second favorite, but I think Tosca is probably his second greatest.

I have never heard Le Villi


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## unpocoscherzando (Sep 24, 2011)

As there is now a new discussion going on Puccini's standing as a composer, I thought it might not be a bad idea to bring this thread back up. Thus:

1. _Tosca_
2. _Madama Butterfly_
3. _Il trittico_ - _Gianni Schicchi_, followed by _Il tabarro_ and then _Suor Angelica_
4. _La bohème_
5. _Turandot_
6. _Manon Lescaut_
7. _La Rondine_
8. _La fanciulla del West_
9. _Le Villi_
10. _Edgar_

To be clear, even if I split up the three operas of _Il trittico_, the order would remain the same.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

1. La Fanciulla del West
2. Turandot
3. Il Trittico
4. La Rondine
5. Madama Butterfly
6. La Boheme
7. Tosca
8. Manon Lescaut
9. Le Villi
10. Edgar


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## Ritter (Apr 11, 2013)

1. Tosca
2. La Bohème
3. Turandot
4. Madama Butterfly
5. La Fanciulla del West
6. Gianni Schicchi
7. Il tabarro 
8. Manon Lescaut
9. Sour Angelica
10. La Rondine
11. Le Villi
12. Edgar


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## Gizmo (Mar 28, 2013)

1. La Boheme and Tosca are tied
2. Madama Butterfly
3. Turandot
4. La Fanciulla del West
5. Manon Lescaut
6. Gianni Schicchi
7. Sour Angelica
8. Il Tabarro
9. La Rondine
Edgar and Le Villi I am not familiar enough with to rate.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

down with Tosca!!!

1. Turandot
2. M.Butterfly
3. La Boheme


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

La Bohème and Tosca are my two favorites. I also like Suor Angelica, Madama Butterfly, and Manon Lescaut.


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