# Best Recording of Le Sacre



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

My nomination goes to Antal Dorati and the Minneapolis Symphony Ochestra. What are your favourites?


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## Itullian

I like the composer conducting these works. I have the complete set on Sony
and love it.


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## ptr

Markevitch/Philharmonia on HMV Mono (1954) or Testament Mono and Stereo (1959)!

/ptr


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## joen_cph

Among those I´ve got (and of course now knowing them all in depth), I like in particular:

CD Muti,PhiladO/emi-unesco 01 dcl 707262 
CD Salonen,NewPO/cbs sbk89894
cd Atherton,BBC Wales O/bbc mm135 (poor!)
LP Steinberg,PittsburghSO/capitol mono p8254 (poor!) 
LP Stravinsky,ColSO/cbs 81 29244
LP Bernstein,NYPO/ph stereo sabl 835 505 ay
*LP Dorati,MinneapSO/ph st 894 023zky*
LP Dorati,MinneapSO/merc mono mg 50030 (Cover: George Maas)
LP Abbado,LSO/dg 2530 635 (Cover: Wandrey)
*LP Dorati,DetroitSO/decca 82 sxdl 7548*
LP Solti,Chicagoso/decca 74 særudg. Club parnas 64 667
LP Ansermet,SuissRom/decca mono LL 303
LP Markevich,PO/emi srg 1024
LP Svetlanov,USSR SO/mel c01303-04
*LP Maazel,WPO/decca london 75 cs 6954*
*LP Boulez,ClevO/cbs 72807*
LP Ancerl,CzechPO/sup 63 st 50487
*LP Karajan,BPO/dg 138 920*
*LP Karajan,BPO/dg 77 2530 884
LP Dutoit,MontrealSO/decca 85 414 202-1*
LP Boulez,ORTF/nonesuch st h71093
LP Wodiczko,PolRSO/muza sx 0520 (Cover:W.Grzybowska)
*LP Ormandy,Philad/col mono ml 5030 (Cover: Doris Lee) *
LP Bernstein,LSO/cbs 72 m31520 (Cover: David Hess)
LP Davis,CtGeb/ph 9500 323

The old mono Ormandy is probably my favourite. Skipped Goosens/Everest, which I found very poor.


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## DrKilroy

I am far from having listened to all versions available (in fact, I have really listened to only few), but Bernstein's with NYPO is hard to beat for me.

Best regards, Dr


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## moody

joen_cph said:


> Among those I´ve got (and of course now knowing them all in depth), I like in particular:
> 
> CD Muti,PhiladO/emi-unesco 01 dcl 707262
> CD Salonen,NewPO/cbs sbk89894
> cd Atherton,BBC Wales O/bbc mm135 (poor!)
> LP Steinberg,PittsburghSO/capitol mono p8254 (poor!)
> LP Stravinsky,ColSO/cbs 81 29244
> LP Bernstein,NYPO/ph stereo sabl 835 505 ay
> *LP Dorati,MinneapSO/ph st 894 023zky*
> LP Dorati,MinneapSO/merc mono mg 50030 (Cover: George Maas)
> LP Abbado,LSO/dg 2530 635 (Cover: Wandrey)
> *LP Dorati,DetroitSO/decca 82 sxdl 7548*
> LP Solti,Chicagoso/decca 74 særudg. Club parnas 64 667
> LP Ansermet,SuissRom/decca mono LL 303
> LP Markevich,PO/emi srg 1024
> LP Svetlanov,USSR SO/mel c01303-04
> *LP Maazel,WPO/decca london 75 cs 6954*
> *LP Boulez,ClevO/cbs 72807*
> LP Ancerl,CzechPO/sup 63 st 50487
> *LP Karajan,BPO/dg 138 920*
> *LP Karajan,BPO/dg 77 2530 884
> LP Dutoit,MontrealSO/decca 85 414 202-1*
> LP Boulez,ORTF/nonesuch st h71093
> LP Wodiczko,PolRSO/muza sx 0520 (Cover:W.Grzybowska)
> *LP Ormandy,Philad/col mono ml 5030 (Cover: Doris Lee) *
> LP Bernstein,LSO/cbs 72 m31520 (Cover: David Hess)
> LP Davis,CtGeb/ph 9500 323
> 
> The old mono Ormandy is probably my favourite. Skipped Goosens/Everest, which I found very poor.


I'm surprised at your verdict re:Goossens because I think it's excellent

I like the Dorati version but the speed is ridiculous and Stravinsky thought so as well.
This is a ballet and people have to dance to it.
Goossens gave the UK premiere with the composer and he was conductor at Diaghilev's Ballet Russes.
This is the third time this subject has been discussed in the last year.( at least).


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## joen_cph

I also remember we had this talk about the Goosens before, Moody.


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## DavidA

Stravinsky himself. A tremendously exciting performance.


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## starthrower

^^^^
I have the box, but haven't listened to it yet. Will do!


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## DavidA

starthrower said:


> ^^^^
> I have the box, but haven't listened to it yet. Will do!


Me too. The problem is that quite a bit of Stravinsky's music is simply not that listenable.


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## Mahlerian

DavidA said:


> Me too. The problem is that quite a bit of Stravinsky's music is simply not that listenable.


To whom? It is listenable, able to be listened to and enjoyed, if at least one person listens to it and enjoys it, right?

Well, I think Stravinsky produced masterpieces throughout his life.


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## arpeggio

*Pilgrimage*

I have had an interesting pilgrimage concerning _Le Sacre_.

A few years ago I heard Benjamin Zanders's interpretation of _Le Sacre_. He had discovered some piano rolls that Stravinsky prepare for _Le Sacre_. The tempos on the piano roll for the final sacrificial dance were much faster than the tempos used by most conductors, including Stravinsky. Mr. Zander thought that Stravinsky used the slower tempos when he conducter because the faster ones would be too difficult for most orchestras.

I recently saw two performances of the ballet which employed the original choreography that was reconstructed by Millicent Hodson, a dance historian. The performances were with the Joffrey and the Kirov. There is no way a ballerina could have executed the final dance at the faster tempo. As a result the Zander interpretation has fallen off the radar.

You Tube of the final dance with Beatriz Rodriguez and the Joffrey:






As far as the best recording? I have no idea. I only have five CD's in my collection and a few old LP's. I even have a wild transcription for concert band. (What can expect from a degenerate band junkie like me.)

I have seen two interesting live performances. One with Boulez conducting the Cleveland Symphony. Another was an open rehearsal with Gustavo Dudamel and the Bolivar Youth Orchestra. He was running the rehearsal for memory without the score.

I had performed the third bassoon part with Catholic University Orchestra about forty years ago. Le Sacre utilizes three bassoons, one fourth bassoon who doubles on contra and a contra bassoonist. They did not have enough bassoonist to cover the parts so they recruited some outside bassoonists to help out. All I remember is that it is one of the hardest works I have ever performed and the rhythms in the finale were next to impossible.


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## moody

joen_cph said:


> I also remember we had this talk about the Goosens before, Moody.


This is like La Ronde isn't it ?? Or groundhog day !


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## DavidA

Mahlerian said:


> To whom? It is listenable, able to be listened to and enjoyed, if at least one person listens to it and enjoys it, right?
> 
> Well, I think Stravinsky produced masterpieces throughout his life.


Fine, if that's what you think. But please review my comment in context. My comment that it is not listenable is my opinion. It therefore does not include everyone, just me, and anyone else who happens to agree. Even as your comment includes only you, and anyone else who might agree with you. That is opinion.


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## joen_cph

moody said:


> This is like La Ronde isn't it ?? Or groundhog day !




I believe the poster _bassClef_ has specialized in collecting recordings of Sacre. Perhaps he has some new input here ... (http://www.talkclassical.com/4337-best-recording-le-sacre-5.html).

I got the Ancerl and Wodiczko recordings quite recently, following recommendations, and I like them both, but wouldn´t place them among the selected few.


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## bigshot

Either one of the Doratis for me.


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## bigshot

DavidA said:


> Me too. The problem is that quite a bit of Stravinsky's music is simply not that listenable.


I tend to agree with that. Stravinsky came on like gangbusters early on, but as time went by, the interesting works began to become fewer and further between.


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## Celloman

I have been sticking with Seiji Ozawa with the Boston Symphony Orchestra (1969) for some years now. Interesting side note: a 24-year-old Michael Tilson Thomas is the piano player. Ozawa gets it just right.


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## Celesta

Rattle's recording with The City of Birmingham Symphony is my pick. Rattle captures Stravinsky's savagery really well.


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## Piwikiwi

Celloman said:


> I have been sticking with Seiji Ozawa with the Boston Symphony Orchestra (1969) for some years now. Interesting side note: a 24-year-old Michael Tilson Thomas is the piano player. Ozawa gets it just right.


That's also my favourite recording


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## Jobis

bigshot said:


> I tend to agree with that. Stravinsky came on like gangbusters early on, but as time went by, the interesting works began to become fewer and further between.


I disagree, its all a matter of opinion. I would say those who only like his earlier works are just plain unfortunate.

In le sacre I really hate that bit where it goes super fortissimo in the brass, at the second half of the 'spring round dances', its just far too loud and irritating to my ears which really kills any of the subtlety in the music. That might just be in my recording though (its conducted by bernstein; shock horror)


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## Vaneyes

NYPO/LB (Sony, rec. 1958); BPO/HvK (DG, rec. 1964); Cleveland O./Boulez (Sony, rec. 1969); Philadelphia O./Muti (EMI, rec. 1978, remastered 2001). :tiphat:


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## Pantheon

I only own Pierre Boulez and the Cleveland Orchestra's recording, so I am unable to compare with others, but so far I like it


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## Guest

DavidA said:


> [P]lease review my comment in context. My comment that it is not listenable is my opinion.


This is as good a time as any to differentiate between opinions presented as opinions and opinions presented as facts. The comment that it is not listenable is indeed an opinion, but it's being presented as a fact, which is objectionable.

And it was, quite rightly, objected to.

If you had simply said "I find it unlistenable," then no one would have minded. But you presented it as a thing that has objective reality, that has reality outside your own opinion.

We are thus pretty sure that you want us to think that your opinion has objective reality, normative for others aside from yourself.

It does not.

[Thread duty: I prefer the Dorati with Detroit largely because it is the performance that makes Le Sacre sound most clearly as if it were by the composer of Petrushka. Not surprisingly, as he was working on those two pieces at the same time. Also not surprisingly, most conductors, including Stravinsky, perform Le Sacre as if it were sui generis. And of course, in a sense, every piece is unique. But Le Sacre and Petrushka, worked on at the same time by the same guy, do share some things. So I prefer the Dorati with Detroit.]


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## brotagonist

Jobis said:


> I would say those who only like his earlier works are just plain unfortunate.


Yes, it was *you* who convinced me... and Robert Greenberg. I ordered and received about 2 weeks ago copies of:















I see that Haitink/LPO and Markevitch/LSO haven't been mentioned as favourites yet, but I didn't want to spend a huge amount on music I wasn't totally committed to. I have listened to the ballets a number of times and have no regret, except that The Firebird seems recorded rather quiet compared to the other works. All the stomping and thumping (I have actually seen Sacre performed live by the Joffrey Ballet) can be a bit hard on the ears: I know what you mean about Sacre.

The symphonies were what I was really after and I am thrilled with these. I chose this set because it has the excellent Symphony for Wind Instruments, which some of the other compilation sets skip. The Symphony of Psalms is my least favourite, I'm afraid. Choral doesn't go down too well. The concertos, in particular, the Violin Concerto, are excellent listening. To sweeten the deal, the seller gave me this one for free, as the previous owner must have loved the Symphony of Psalms to death. It plays fine, so I can live with it until I decide to upgrade to a different version 

While I was at it, I also got (and received along with the others):









I have always loved L'Histoire du Soldat. Since Messiaen, one of my favourite composers, wrote a piece about the Rossignol, I wanted to hear what Stravinsky did with his. This is a fine album.


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## joen_cph

(( Side remark concerning my earlier post:


> Among those I´ve got (and of course now knowing them all in depth), I like in particular:


 .... Sorry, this looks intolerably stupid, was meant to be

_Among those I´ve got (and of course not knowing them all in depth), I like in particular ... _))


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## Andrei

I have a dozen Rites and there is one that is head and shoulders above the rest. It is *Claudio Abbaddo* conducting the *LSO *on *Deutsche Grammophon*. Warning: do not even think about the CD - it is a dreadful rehash. The 45 rpm Japanese pressing is the one. Tempos to perfection (a la Stravinsky himself or the piano roll), dynamics huge and a barbaric interpretation. At the finish I always feel I have come through quite an experience.


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## Mahlerian

Jobis said:


> I disagree, its all a matter of opinion. I would say those who only like his earlier works are just plain unfortunate.


If the review here is any indication, a lot of people don't understand the first thing about Stravinsky's late works. Note how many times a single word is used as the only descriptor for an entire piece....
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=175079


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## Vaneyes

Andrei said:


> I have a dozen Rites and there is one that is head and shoulders above the rest. It is *Claudio Abbaddo* conducting the *LSO *on *Deutsche Grammophon*. Warning: do not even think about the CD - it is a dreadful rehash. The 45 rpm Japanese pressing is the one. Tempos to perfection (a la Stravinsky himself or the piano roll), dynamics huge and a barbaric interpretation. At the finish I always feel I have come through quite an experience.


Wondering if they changed the pitch 'n punch, because I didn't find it (1990's DG 2fer remastering) barbaric. Closer to lethargic.

DG Abbado Tchaik. (Syms. 2, 4, 6, R & J Fantasy Overture) could use the Japanese touch, but don't touch the pitch 'n punch. :tiphat:


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## david johnson

Boulez/ortf
Bernstein/nypo
Ozawa/cso

these are my favorites, but I have a few more that are great, too


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## bassClef

Any of these are fine recordings/performances, take your pick:

Bernstein/NYPO
Levi/Atlanta
Chailly/Cleveland
Ozawa/Chicago
Fischer/BBC NO Wales
Inbal/Philharmonia
Litton/Bergen
Craft/Philharmonia
Janssons/Corcertgebouw
Karajan/Berliner

I'm working on a spreadsheet of all the versions to help make sense of them all, I don't seem to be able to attach it here however!


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## Andrei

Vaneyes said:


> Wondering if they changed the pitch 'n punch, because I didn't find it (1990's DG 2fer remastering) barbaric. Closer to lethargic.
> 
> DG Abbado Tchaik. (Syms. 2, 4, 6, R & J Fantasy Overture) could use the Japanese touch, but don't touch the pitch 'n punch. :tiphat:


No idea what the "pitch 'n punch is" sorry. Also what is a "2fer"?


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## bassClef

I just ordered the Goossens interpretation on CD (£2.19!) - need to hear it myself. I know it's probably not going to make my favourites list but as an avid Rite collector and at that price why not?


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## ShropshireMoose

Markevitch and the Philharmonia is probably my favourite, but I do like Monteux and the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra. Mind you, I have a soft spot for most of Monteux's performances.


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## techniquest

My picks are Markevich / Philharmonia (CfP); MTT / Boston Symphony (DG) and Petkov / Plovdiv Philharmonic (Laserlight Classics).


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## bassClef

ShropshireMoose said:


> Markevitch and the Philharmonia is probably my favourite.


Which one? I have the 1951 and 1959 recordings on digital download - I should probably give them more of a listen since one classical reference I use alot puts one of them at the top of the heap.

The only Monteux/Paris Conservatoire recording I heard was dreafully poor I thought, but interesting from a historical perspective.


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## Vaneyes

Andrei said:


> No idea what the "pitch 'n punch is" sorry. Also what is a "2fer"?


Thank you for your response, Andrei. FYI two linked items (there likely are others) regarding "pitch", and "punch", IOW relating respectively to audio speed and the boosting of overall volume. :tiphat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_time-scale/pitch_modification

http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Improving_and_Remastering_Audio

PEE-ESS: "2fer" is two CDs in one packaging.


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## PetrB

That Dorati and the MSO recording is insanely fast -- interesting, perhaps, but insanely fast.

Whatever criticisms, some just I'm sure, of Stravinsky's conducting, those recordings he made for Columbia when he was near and / or in his eighties are "The Archival" performances. They are all superb.

This composer very much knew the tempi, the sound he wanted from the orchestra, the balance of parts, and got from that Columbia Symphony orchestra (studio orchestra) and the few others who played in that series, exactly the sound he wanted.

Other recordings might be 'as good' but different, nonetheless.

I found often, from around the same time or a bit later, the recordings of Stravinsky conducted by Karel Ančerl more than welcome second viewpoints.

First and foremost, though, the recordings from the Horse's Mouth, as it were.


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## bassClef

bassClef said:


> I just ordered the Goossens interpretation on CD (£2.19!) - need to hear it myself. I know it's probably not going to make my favourites list but as an avid Rite collector and at that price why not?


UPDATE: You get what you pay for! hehe - well actually it's not all that bad, there's much to commend some parts, but quite oddly though most of the first part (Adoration of the Earth) maintains a lively pace, Dance of the Adolescents is just WAY too slow - it becomes a dirge - get on with it! Other than that (and the sound quality which is a bit muffled) I quite like it. Doesn't change my list of recommendations I posted earlier though.


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## bassClef

PetrB said:


> That Dorati and the MSO recording is insanely fast -- interesting, perhaps, but insanely fast.


Quite so, the only interpretation I have (I think) that clocks in at under 30 minutes.


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## Vaneyes

29 minutes?! Maybe "Goose" had a hot date or some cheesecake to devour.


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## joen_cph

The old Ormandy (1955) is also around 30 mins (LP, no timings). Dorati' s late Detroit is also among the fast ones, and the early Stravinsky (1929, 1940 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rite_of_Spring_discography) faster and wilder than the later stereo, as far as I remember.


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## joen_cph

Fedoseev - Moscow RSO /vox cum laude digital LP 1982

Not uninteresting IMO, but maybe too slow in a few cases, such as in the introduction. Downright funny a bit into the work, where the timpani are over-exposed and the piece becomes a veritable, very dramatic percussion concerto for some minutes, to a remarkable effect. Overall, the sound picture is clear and shows details often not heard, and Fedoseev can be good at integrating them, so that the ongoings are more coherent than in some recordings. Yet the effects are often very wild and barbaric. The second half of the first part is plaved extremely fast & made me think of fast renditions of the Finale flight of Bartok´s _Concerto for Orchestra_.


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## moody

bassClef said:


> I just ordered the Goossens interpretation on CD (£2.19!) - need to hear it myself. I know it's probably not going to make my favourites list but as an avid Rite collector and at that price why not?


It is very authentic,Goossens was involved with Stravinsky at the onset,furthermore it is at dance speed which makes a change.
Ozawa's is excellent,but Dorati's Mercury is my favourite but it's much too fast
See my post here,No.6.


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## Copperears

It would be nice to have commentary here not just on speed or author's intention but also context, so here goes:

I like Ozawa/BSO because it just sounds right to me; the BSO at that time had string sections that were very much Viennese in flavor and, like the CSO as well, powerful and accurate brass and woodwinds sections; Ozawa integrates them all into a whole that really dances, but with the weight of Germanic musical performance tradition to give it heft.

MTT/BSO a few years later, I recall, is very much a young rock star's performance. It captures the mood of the times and is very dramatic and big, and MTT's youthful superstardom drives the whole thing right along. He was the Pete Townsend of conductors in those days, and a Bernstein protege, with Bernstein's flair.

Chailly/Cleveland, for me, captures the lighter, French side of Stravinsky. I very much hear Debussy's influence in this performance; there is much in Stravinsky that is profoundly influenced by Debussy.

Dorati I've always heard raves about! But it's just me and my tastes, but I always find his conducting a bit stodgy, by contrast. Haitink less so, Haitink does Stravinsky the way Brendel does Beethoven, with great clarity, and poise. You're not going to hear the drugged orgy aspect of Sacre in either of these performances, the way you do with MTT.

Stravinsky's own? I find much like Chailly's, actually, except with a more classical than French underpinning, whatever that might mean. The music seems more of a serious, studied effort, I'm sure I part due to the orchestra's adulation. It was common for many to say for awhile that Stravinsky was the worst performer of his own music, I see that's changed, and I won't judge either way; I grew up with that sense and so still have to fight the expectation bias inherent in that when I listen to him conduct.


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## bigshot

There are two Doratis. The earlier one is better, but both are far from stodgy. Massively far! It'll blow out your speakers! You're right about Haitink though. He is way too proper for this.


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## Guest

I like the Gergiev/Kirov recording on Philips.


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## DavidA

Stravinsky's own is terrific. Very exciting.

I also enjoy Karajan II which is really good.


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## QuietGuy

I like Bernstein's recording with NY Phil.


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## Whistler Fred

I grew up with Stravinky's Columbia Orchestra recording and it still ranks high on my list of favorites. Among more recent recordings I very much like Michael Tilson Thomas with the San Francisco Orchestra. I don't currently have the Dorati, but I remember an old LP that I once owned and liked. Curious about both Rattle and Ozawa and will have to check those out.


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## BRHiler

The CBSO Rattle is far superior to the Berlin Rattle. The CBSO Rattle is currently available with Firebird, Petrushka, and Apollo Musgate (if memory serves).


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## 38157

I have a recording of Stravinsky conducting the piece, and it is my favourite. I'm not sure this is a popular opinion - I heard claims (although I can't cite them) that Igor wasn't the best at conducting his own works, but I have a preference for his interpretations. I only wish they could have been recorded with modern technology. In fact, I wish Stravinsky was around now and had a recording studio. Orchestration seems like it wasn't distinct from composition to him, so he would have created fantastic colours with current tech to his disposal.


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## Vaneyes

****** said:


> I have a recording of Stravinsky conducting the piece, and it is my favourite. I'm not sure this is a popular opinion - *I heard claims (although I can't cite them) that Igor wasn't the best at conducting his own works*, but I have a preference for his interpretations. I only wish they could have been recorded with modern technology. In fact, I wish Stravinsky was around now and had a recording studio. Orchestration seems like it wasn't distinct from composition to him, so he would have created fantastic colours with current tech to his disposal.


His conducted collection is well-respected, by me included.:tiphat:


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## 38157

I must have fabricated the criticism in that case, or maybe the opinion was a one-off.


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## joen_cph

I´ve heard harsh criticism of Stravinsky´s own approach too. 
When he made recordings of works (including Sacre) more than one time, the earlier ones tend to be quite different from the later CBS survey.


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## dgee

I'm also ambivalent to the CBS recordings. The band in general is either poor or under-rehearsed and full of errors and the direction is inconsistent to say the least. The Rite is not even in the league of later recordings, file under "special interest only". Try to find better recordings where you can

TBH I don't have a firm grasp on which is best - I grew up with the old Karajan recording but would try the newer MTT and Boulez 91. People are making noises about the recent Gatti recording - haven' heard it but I just can't get behind the Paris orchestra sound. YMMV so give it a try


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## hpowders

I recommend the performance of Le Sacre by Valery Gergiev and the Kirov Orchestra.


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## Alypius

hpowders said:


> I recommend the performance of Le Sacre by Valery Gergiev and the Kirov Orchestra.


I agree. The most viscerally exciting is Gergiev's (with the Kirov).










Among the classic recordings (besides Stravinsky's own, which I find quite good and a helpful reference point) is Igor Markevich with the Philharmonia Orchestra (actually has two versions):










For savoring the instrumental color and detail of the score, I admire Pierre Boulez's performance with Cleveland, still available both as an individual disc and also in the box _Pierre Boulez Conducts Stravinsky_. The most interesting recent performance is by Gustavo Dudamel and the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela -- who seem in their element giving an unusually enthusiastic and fiery version:


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## nightscape

Nézet-Séguin/Philadelphia









Stravinsky/CSO









Levi/Atlanta


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I'll have to second nightscape on the Yoel Levi release. It's similar to Bernstein's 58 with glorious Telarc sound. That's one thing about Telarc, you know it will at least sound awesome.


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## mcaparula

Been 8 months on this thread, but I'll bring it back by taking this question in a different direction. If you're looking for a great RECORDING of Le Sacre (that is, an audiophile's opinion), something that holds up on the performance side, but will blow your speakers away then look for Esa-Pekka Salonen's recording with the LAPO on SACD. Of course, you have to have equipment that can play Super Audio CDs.


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