# Otto Klemperer EMI Catalogue



## Granate

Lately, revising some conductors that were going to feature in my Beethoven Challenge, I came across some symphonies conducted by Otto Klemperer, famous for the "architecture" of his cycle. I have read that it has been out-of-fashion, but I enjoyed some movements of the Eroica. Also, Mozart 29, Schubert 9 and Haydn 88 had some play to my own good impression.

I should be patient. From these Klemperer recordings I already own a "Recordings of the Century" CD of the Missa Solemnis and the Mahler box.

I had positive impressions too from streaming his Bach (Matthäus Passion and the Brandenburg concertos) and Brahms' Requiem a long time ago. I like some of his Bruckner recordings (4,6,8). When I did the first Mozart symphonies challenge, he had better recordings for me than Karajan EMI or Böhm, but stayed far from Gardiner Philips. I'm not very fond of the Höllander, the Zauberflöte and the Wagner/Strauss box.

What are your favourite recordings of his EMI catalogue? I'm not counting live recordings like some Mahler symphonies or Beethoven 9, in Testament, etc.

Do you have any words about the recording style in the early 60s with Columbia? For example, I really like the last stereo recordings that Karajan made with the Philharmonia before departing for Berlin forever...


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## Becca

In addition to the full, stereo Beethoven symphony cycle, there is also a mono (*) 3rd, 5th & 7th which were done some years before the full cycle and which are not as slow as the stereo recordings and, IMO, are much better.

* While they were all originally released in mono only, there is a stereo master of the 7th which was used for the CD releases.


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## Itullian

Klemperer is a favorite with me. I love them all.
Except the "Linz" which is too fast.
Love his Haydn.


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## Biffo

My favourite Klemperer/EMI recordings are:

Beethoven: Fidelio & Misss Solemnis
Brahms: Symphonies & German Requiem
Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde (with Wunderlich & Ludwig) - unsurpassed

I also like his Beethoven symphonies and Mozart/Magic Flute (the lack of dialogue doesn't worry me). The box set 'Romantic Symphonies & Overtures' has some surprises - Berlioz, Franck and Tchaikovsky, the Schumann is a bit mixed.


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## realdealblues

To me the only people who find Klemperer's recordings out of fashion are those with tin ears, are not musicians themselves and/or have no idea what interpretation means in music.

Not everything Klemperer did was absolute gold, but the majority of his catalogue is fantastic and above all he stressed clarity in his recordings. Some people say that "Period Performances" allow you to hear the more clarity to which I call bull. A great conductor like Klemperer allows you to hear every detail from Strings to Woodwinds. You can hear every line because Klemperer actually knew how to balance an orchestra. I hear far more detail than I have ever heard in any period performance. He also sat the orchestra different than most everyone else which actually made him have to work harder to keep everything in order. He was a first class musician and a good composer which is sadly overlooked. But enough of my rant...

As far as favorite recordings:

Bach: Brandenburg Concertos, St. Matthew Passion
Beethoven: Fidelio, Symphonies, Overtures, Missa Solemnis
Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique
Brahms: Alto Rhapsody, Overtures, Symphonies, Requiem, Variations, Violin Concerto (w/David Oistrakh)
Bruckner: Symphonies 4, 6 & 7
Dvorak: Symphony 9
Franck: Symphony In D Minor
Handel: Messiah
Haydn: Symphonies
Hindemith: Nobilissima Visione Suite
Klemperer: Merry Waltz, String Quartet 7, Symphony 2
Liszt: Piano Concerto (w/Annie Fischer)
Mahler: Das Lied Von Der Erde, Lieder, Symphonies 2 & 9
Mendelssohn: A Midsummer Night's Dream, Symphonies 3 & 4
Mozart: Cosi Fan Tutte, Die Zauberflote, Don Giovanni, Horn Concertos, Le Nozze Di Figaro, Serenades, Symphonies, Piano Concerto 25
Schubert: Symphonies 5, 8, 9
Schumann: Symphonies, Piano Concerto (w/Annie Fischer)
Strauss (R): Tone Poems
Stravinsky: Pulcinella Suite, Symphony In 3 Movements
Tchaikovsky: Symphonies 4-6
Wagner: Orchestral Highlights, Wesendonck Lieder, Der Fliegende Hollander
Weber: Overtures
Weill: Kleine Dreigroschenmusik

Most everything. His Bruckner 5 & 8 were ok but don't rate as my favorites, his Beethoven Piano Concertos & Choral Fantasy with Barenboim are also not among my personal favorites. His Beethoven Violin Concerto with Menuhin is good, but just doesn't rank among my favorites. Most everything else those is top notch.


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## wkasimer

realdealblues said:


> To me the only people who find Klemperer's recordings out of fashion are those with tin ears, are not musicians themselves and/or have no idea what interpretation means in music.


What an effective way to eliminate debate. Perhaps you should just call anyone who disagrees with you "deplorable".

I happen to love Klemperer, but for a lot of music - particularly Baroque music - he IS out of fashion. That doesn't mean that one can't like it and enjoy it, but let's face it - no one is going to perform Messiah or the St. Matthew that way in 2018.


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## realdealblues

wkasimer said:


> What an effective way to eliminate debate. Perhaps you should just call anyone who disagrees with you "deplorable".


Glad to know I'm a "deplorable" because you don't feel I should have an opinion different than yours.



wkasimer said:


> No one is going to perform Messiah or the St. Matthew that way in 2018.


How queer, I just saw Messah performed with Full Orchestral & Choral Forces with Slow, Moderate tempos a few months ago. Maybe it just went out with 2017 and myself and thousands of others haven't gotten the memo yet...


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## wkasimer

realdealblues said:


> Glad to know I'm a "deplorable" because you don't feel I should have an opinion different than yours.


You are entitled to your opinion. What you're not entitled to do is assume that anyone who disagrees with you is an inferior listener with tin ears and no knowledge of music.


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## joen_cph

The _Passion of St. Matthew_ is my favourite. I quite like the _Das Lied von der Erde_ in the stereo version too, and the _Zauberflöte._

There is an interesting Beethoven 4th Concerto with Novaes as well; they seem to have done that work twice, the two recordings being different from each other. The one with an unusually fast 2nd movement is worth hearing, exemplifying how he generally had a much livelier musical style say before 1960 or so. It wasn´t EMI though, I think. Another example is the Decca Mahler 2nd. 
Unfortunately those early recordings often have poor sound and not very well-integrated orchestral playing.

Personally I´m less keen on most of his EMI orchestral recordings. I kept the Bruckner 4+6, the Beethoven concerti with Barenboim, _Ein Deutsches Requiem_, and a few more of those too, though - in order to have some samples.


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## realdealblues

wkasimer said:


> You are entitled to your opinion. What you're not entitled to do is assume that anyone who disagrees with you is an inferior listener with tin ears and no knowledge of music.


Even if I did say it with the intent that you have incorrectly attributed to it, it would still be "just an opinion" and thus you again are still saying I am not entitled to have an opinion.

If I were to say "anyone who listens to Cage's 4'33 is a moron" or "anyone from the south talks funny", it's still an opinion. So what, why do you care? If I believe I am the reincarnation of some great prophet, so what? I don't attack someone for posting something I disagree with, but thank you for proving again that I'm not entitled to an opinion as long as it's something you disagree or are uncomfortable with.


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## Dr Johnson

This version of Mahler's 2nd was my introduction to that work and remains my favourite:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=2137451

Then there's his Brahms:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=826366

And last, but not least, Bruckner 4 & 6.


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## D Smith

Klemperer's EMI Bruckner 6 remains tops for me. I also love his Beethoven Eroica and Pastoral, Brahms 1 and Requiem and many others. I like that he doesn't feel the need to rush to bring energy to a work (particularly Beethoven) and can maintain a clear through line throughout a movement.


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## wkasimer

realdealblues said:


> Even if I did say it with the intent that you have incorrectly attributed to it,


I think that your original comment was pretty clear:

"To me the only people who find Klemperer's recordings out of fashion are those with tin ears, are not musicians themselves and/or have no idea what interpretation means in music."



> it would still be "just an opinion" and thus you again are still saying I am not entitled to have an opinion.


You're entitled to an opinion about Klemperer. You're not entitled to an opinion about me, or the reasons for my opinions.

You pretty clearly don't "get it", so I'm done here.


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## realdealblues

wkasimer said:


> You're entitled to an opinion about Klemperer. You're not entitled to an opinion about me, or the reasons for my opinions.
> 
> You pretty clearly don't "get it", so I'm done here.


I don't have any opinion on you, but you obviously have one about me so it is clearly you who doesn't "get it".
Thanks for stopping by :tiphat:

Now back to Klemperer discussion and your favorite EMI recordings...


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## wkasimer

Granate said:


> What are your favourite recordings of his EMI catalogue? I'm not counting live recordings like some Mahler symphonies or Beethoven 9, in Testament, etc.


While Klemperer is always interesting, I think that he's at his best in Brahms (the symphonies, the German Requiem, and especially the violin concerto with Oistrakh. I like his Beethoven and Haydn, too. As for Mozart, it's odd - I like him in symphonic music, but not so much in the operas. His Zauberflote and Da Ponte operas are very, very serious, and I can appreciate that when I'm in the right mood, but I usually prefer a little more light and shade. Zauberflote also suffers from a cast that looks good on paper, but doesn't really deliver the goods (Lucia Popp aside).


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## Merl

I'm just wondering what people's views are of the Andrew Rose Pristine Audio XR remasterings of the Klemperer Beethoven cycle. I hear a big difference. Your thoughts?


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## Heck148

I'm not a huge Klemperer fan, tho his Brahms German Requiem is very good. He generally gets a good sound from the orchestra, lots of wind/brass sonority, and the Philharmonia Orch plays very well for him....too often, tho, it is just too slow and ponderous....esp evident in requisite fast tempos, like Beethoven scherzos. There is a minimum speed for these pieces, any slower and they just don't work. The scherzo "giacoso" quality requires staccato, separate notes to maintain character. At too slow a tempo, there is simply too much time, space between notes. If one lengthens the notes to fill the space, the essential quality is lost.
I have to wonder if OK's slow tempi, in his later recordings, might be directly attributable to the various physical afflictions he suffered?? Perhaps he simply couldn't move any faster??


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## Becca

Heck148 said:


> I'm not a huge Klemperer fan, tho his Brahms German Requiem is very good. He generally gets a good sound from the orchestra, lots of wind/brass sonority, and the Philharmonia Orch plays very well for him....too often, tho, it is just too slow and ponderous....esp evident in requisite fast tempos, like Beethoven scherzos. There is a minimum speed for these pieces, any slower and they just don't work. The scherzo "giacoso" quality requires staccato, separate notes to maintain character. At too slow a tempo, there is simply too much time, space between notes. If one lengthens the notes to fill the space, the essential quality is lost.
> I have to wonder if OK's slow tempi, in his later recordings, might be directly attributable to the various physical afflictions he suffered?? Perhaps he simply couldn't move any faster??


You only have to go back to his 1955 Beethoven symphonies to see that the 1960 cycle represented a marked slow down from what he had done. I think that his physical issues and age had a lot to do with it.

Note to self: I should try listening to some of the 1930s Los Angeles Philharmonic and very early 1950's Concertgebow.


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## Granate

Becca said:


> You only have to go back to his 1955 Beethoven symphonies to see that the 1960 cycle represented a marked slow down from what he had done. *I think that his physical issues and age had a lot to do with it.*


His eternal Mahler 7 is my favourite (1h40m) together with Abbado CSO (1CD)!

I generally have a good opinion about Walter Legge's Philharmonia Orchestra. Since it was created until Klemperer's decease, they "enjoyed" the batons of Herbert von Karajan and ocasionally Wilhelm Furtwängler. Did Klemperer "reap the harvest" and implemented their experience into the stereo recording era?



realdealblues said:


> Not everything Klemperer did was absolute gold, but the majority of his catalogue is fantastic and above all he stressed clarity in his recordings. [...] *He also sat the orchestra different than most everyone else which actually made him have to work harder to keep everything in order.* He was a first class musician and a good composer which is sadly overlooked.


I kind of want to know more about this. In the "great conductors of the past" documentary, he was portrayed as a man of character sometimes more enraged than Fritz Reiner.

And look what I found in my past challenges!



Granate said:


> Mozart
> *Die Zauberflöte, KV620*
> Gottlob Frick, Nicolai Gedda, Walter Berry, Lucia Popp, Gundula Janowitz, Elisabeth Schwartzkopf, Christa Ludwig, Franz Crass
> Philharmonia Orchestra & Chorus
> *Otto Klemperer
> Warner Classics (1964/2000 Remastered Edition)*
> 
> I want to blame my tireness for my reaction to Klemperer's Zauberflöte. Although the digital transfer has kept the volume nicely, the instrumentation and the balance of the Philharmonia Chorus with the male singers felt boring. Time was passing and nothing catched my attention. It's sad. Lucia Popp as Queen of the Night played the best role and sung a near-perfect "Der Hölle Rache". *I bet that in the future I'll like Klemperer's recording,* but now it stands together with Böhm.


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## Becca

The issue of splitting the violins, which Klemperer did along with the majority of conductors of his era, may not be as common now, but some do it. Blomstedt always, Rattle does depending on the particular work.


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## Heck148

In his earlier days, OK was known as quite a "talker", constantly going on at rehearsals, a characteristic that tends to drive orchestra musicians nuts....hence the famous Labate/Klemperer/NYPO incident....


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## Triplets

wkasimer said:


> While Klemperer is always interesting, I think that he's at his best in Brahms (the symphonies, the German Requiem, and especially the violin concerto with Oistrakh. I like his Beethoven and Haydn, too. As for Mozart, it's odd - I like him in symphonic music, but not so much in the operas. His Zauberflote and Da Ponte operas are very, very serious, and I can appreciate that when I'm in the right mood, but I usually prefer a little more light and shade. Zauberflote also suffers from a cast that looks good on paper, but doesn't really deliver the goods (Lucia Popp aside).


Klemperer's Brahms cycle is one of my two favorites, the other being Kurt Sanderling.


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## Becca

I have just been listening to some interesting performances of Shostakovich's Symphony #9, Janacek's Sinfonietta and Stravinsky's Pulcinella ... all from actual Klemperer concerts in the 1950s! And, it should be noted, very good, un-slow performances too! The moral of the story is to not pigeon-hole him from some of his slow recordings from his last decade.


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## KenOC

Becca said:


> I have just been listening to some interesting performances of Shostakovich's Symphony #9, Janacek's Sinfonietta and Stravinsky's Pulcinella ... all from actual Klemperer concerts in the 1950s! And, it should be noted, very good, un-slow performances too! The moral of the story is to not pigeon-hole him from some of his slow recordings from his last decade.


I think that Klemperer, in his final Beethoven cycle, wanted to communicate the picture of LvB's symphonies rolling their heavy divisions across the borders of small, poorly-defended countries, imposing their Teutonic will on all concerned. He succeeded pretty well.


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## Dr Johnson

Merl said:


> I'm just wondering what people's views are of the Andrew Rose Pristine Audio XR remasterings of the Klemperer Beethoven cycle. I hear a big difference. Your thoughts?


I haven't heard the Klemperer Pristine Audio remasters but I've got the 1938 Bruno Walter Mahler 9th. It does indeed sound very different from the (in my case) Naxos CD.

But I do find myself wondering what am I listening to? Is it real or is it a clever trick? In a way it shouldn't matter but it does somehow.


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## Biffo

Heck148 said:


> I have to wonder if OK's slow tempi, in his later recordings, might be directly attributable to the various physical afflictions he suffered?? Perhaps he simply couldn't move any faster??


I thought that but yesterday, prompted by this thread, I listened to some of his EMI recording of Cosi fan tutte. If I remember correctly it was slated when first issued for being way too slow. The overture starts off very portentously but once the quicker section starts Klemperer takes it at a fast pace. There is some virtuoso playing from the Philharmonia winds; I suppose it could be taken quicker but not without risking becoming an incoherent gabble. Once the singing starts it is a different matter - Klemperer seems quite relaxed but not excessively slow. However, I think the effect is cumulative and the slower pace begins to tell. I grew up with Bohm's well-known EMI recording so I am not expecting hipster speeds.

Perhaps it is just how Klemperer wanted it to sound.


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## DavidA

I should be noted that the Klemperer we generally hear on recordings - which were made in his later years and can be quite ponderous - can be misleading. By way of example, the Fidelio Overture in Klemperer’s EMI recording clocks in at 6:54. In a Hungarian State Opera performance recorded a decade earlier it is more than a full minute faster, at 5:44! The Hungarian performance is way more dramatic than the EMI although not nearly as well sung and recorded.
During the 1960s when I started collecting classical LPs, Klemperer was at the height of his popularity as a Beethoven conductor. Just to doubt him was heresy. However, we can now be more objective. To dismiss people who don't care for Klemperer of having tin ears is not an argument imo.
I have two Beethoven cycles with K and he is slightly more dramatic live. The main problem is the slow tempi which stifle dos 1-2 and the first movement of no 3. Yet there is a superb funeral march. No 5 is again undone by the slow tempi but no 6 is glorious if you take it as a leisurely stroll through the country with peasants in clod-hoppers. Certainly better than the quick sprints of latter years! I have a superbly truculent seventh and the eighth is pure Klemperer. The ninth is a very laboured ascent to joy but well worth hearing. To me hearing K's Beethoven is two wish he had been able to record it 20 years earlier before his beat got so slow.
His set of piano concertos with Barenboim is interesting but not a first choice. The aged eagle and young lion.
The Missa Solemnis is spoiled by laboured tempi and inadequate soloists. it was fashionable to prefer it to Karajan's when they both appeared together but to me Karajan's soloists and his more dramatic, intense approach win the day easily, despite the Philharmonia choirs superb singing.
His St Matthew Passion - I cannot listen to this absurdly laboured performance - if I want a more traditional one I go to the 1958 Richter. For a romantic passion then Karajan.
I have always found his Fidelio as recorded disappointing dramatically despite the superb Ludwig and Vickers. There is a better live recording performance from Covent Garden with substantially different cast but to me it doesn't reach the drama that Karajan does on his EMI recording. 
His Mozart operas were made too late and all suffer from slow tempi. The exception is Zauberflote with a superb class. It is slow but it is magical. Not the only way of doing it but a wonderful listen, especially the female soloists. 
As for his Mahler Song of the Earth I wonder what Mahler would have thought of some absurdly slow tempi for the superb Wunderlich. But the singing and playing are glorious and the final song with Ludwig unforgettable.
What we have with Klemperer's recordings is the grand old man. A pity we couldn't have had the radical young conductor of the Kroll Opera on records too


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## Biffo

DavidA said:


> As for his Mahler Song of the Earth I wonder what Mahler would have thought of some absurdly slow tempi for the superb Wunderlich. But the singing and playing are glorious and the final song with Ludwig unforgettable.


Absurdly slow? In the first movement, the trickiest for the tenor, Klemperer takes 7'59 - the only conductor in the 25 recordings I have to come in under 8 mins, though Krips (8'00) and Kempe (8'04) run him close. I didn't check the other two movements but as Klemperer takes 63'21 in total I don't think he could have been excessively slow.

Overall, Walter in 1937 is quickest (57'22) and Horenstein with BBC Northern Synphony Orchestra the slowest (69'34). Reiner, Tilson-Thomas and Krips with the Vienna SO have pretty similar times to Klemperer.

Edit: I actually have 26 recordings, I missed out Nott and the Bamberg SO, it was in a pile of unlistened to discs. He takes 61'26 overall and 8'03, 3'06 and 4'15 for the tenor movements compared with 7'59, 3'37 and 4'36 for Klemperer.


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## realdealblues

Granate said:


> I kind of want to know more about this.


Klemperer would seat his orchestra in an arc and often slightly different then other conductors who used split violins.

I've also seen him set them slightly different depending on the venue.

Thinking about it like a clock and if Klemperer is sitting at 6 o'clock looking out at the orchestra.

Sometimes he would sit them:

The 1st violins would be at 9 o'clock
The basses would be at about 10:30
Cellos directly in front of him at 12 o'clock
Violas off to the right at about 1:30
2nd violins to the right at 3 o'clock

Brass would often be back behind the basses
Woodwinds behind the Cellos
Percussion behind the Violas

Other split conductors would often put the Cellos off to the left about 10:30 with the Basses behind them with just the woodwinds in the middle and usually the brass in a line all along the back behind the woodwinds, although I've also seen them split with Brass way off on the right and percussion in the back left.

I've also seen Klemperer put the strings all around him as described with the Woodwinds and Brass straight up the middle.

I use to have several charts from Klemperer and how his varied but I am unable to find them at the moment. If I can find them at some point, I'll post them.


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## Merl

Dr Johnson said:


> I haven't heard the Klemperer Pristine Audio remasters but I've got the 1938 Bruno Walter Mahler 9th. It does indeed sound very different from the (in my case) Naxos CD.
> 
> But I do find myself wondering what am I listening to? Is it real or is it a clever trick? In a way it shouldn't matter but it does somehow.


Clever trick or not, the Klemperer LvB cycle sounds miles better on the Pristine remakes. At times the originals were muddy, to my ears, which spoiled the grandeur of Klemperer's accounts. I've not listened to all of them yet (just 1-4 and 7) but the bass and treble sound much better and the whole aural picture is much clearer. Don't get me wrong, I'm still not the biggest fan of Klemperer's slower visions but the 4th sounds way better and I like it. The 7th sounds better but its still far too slow for me and doesn't build up a head of steam, IMO. I'll listen to the others later. I'll be honest, I never used to be fond of many Klemperer recordings but I've warmed to his solidity over the years. I still don't like his Brahms cycle much though (apart from a lovely 3rd). Otherwise I'm looking to reacquaint myself with many of his recordings. Like him or not, he always had something interesting to say in his recordings.


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## Becca

Merl said:


> Clever trick or not, the Klemperer LvB cycle sounds miles better on the Pristine remakes. At times the originals were muddy, to my ears, which spoiled the grandeur of Klemperer's accounts. I've not listened to all of them yet (just 1-4 and 7) but the bass and treble sound much better and the whole aural picture is much clearer. *Don't get me wrong, I'm still not the biggest fan of Klemperer's slower visions but the 4th sounds way better and I like it. The 7th sounds better but its still far too slow for me and doesn't build up a head of steam*, IMO. I'll listen to the others later. I'll be honest, I never used to be fond of many Klemperer recordings but I've warmed to his solidity over the years. I still don't like his Brahms cycle much though (apart from a lovely 3rd). Otherwise I'm looking to reacquaint myself with many of his recordings. Like him or not, he always had something interesting to say in his recordings.


As I noted earlier, try listening to the 1955 recordings of the 3rd, 5th & 7th


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## premont

Merl said:


> ......the Klemperer LvB cycle sounds miles better on the Pristine remakes.


Would you be kind to post a link to these Pristine remakes?


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## Pugg

premont said:


> Would you be kind to post a link to these Pristine remakes?


https://www.pristineclassical.com/


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## Merl

premont said:


> Would you be kind to post a link to these Pristine remakes?


Or to be even more precise than Pugg:

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pabx012


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## premont

@Merl and Pugg. 

Thanks to both of you.

I suppose, that the CDs only can be purchased from the labels home page. 
Are the 24 bit that much better than the 16 bit as to "pay" the much higher cost?


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## Merl

The recordings are a big improvement, however for that money I'd expect them to dig Otto up, reanimate him and get him to conduct the whole cycle again in my living room. :lol: As far as the difference between 16 bit and 24 bit is concerned, I doubt anyone would even notice.


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## premont

Merl said:


> The recordings are a big improvement, however for that money I'd expect them to dig Otto up, reanimate him and get him to conduct the whole cycle again in my living room. :lol: *As far as the difference between 16 bit and 24 bit is concerned, I doubt anyone would even notice.*


*

*

Thanks. I supposed that.


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## starthrower

I am just recently exploring Klemp's EMI recordings. I enjoyed the Wagner discs, and his Strauss Metamorphosen is incredible! I have a 2 disc Mozart set from the library and I like the sound of these. His Mendelssohn 3rd is great too. I'm looking forward to the Brahms symphonies, and Mahler. And exploring the Romantic box.


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## Itullian

starthrower said:


> I am just recently exploring Klemp's EMI recordings. I enjoyed the Wagner discs, and his Strauss Metamorphosen is incredible! I have a 2 disc Mozart set from the library and I like the sound of these. His Mendelssohn 3rd is great too. I'm looking forward to the Brahms symphonies, and Mahler. And exploring the Romantic box.


It's all great.


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## starthrower

Zarathustra isn't on the Strauss album. Maybe Klemp didn't like that one? But I can supplement it with the Karajan '73 disc.


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## DavidA

realdealblues said:


> To me the only people who find Klemperer's recordings out of fashion are those with tin ears, are not musicians themselves and/or have no idea what interpretation means in music.
> 
> .


No doubt some of the composers he conducted would also have had tin ears as they would have conducted their works very differently from Klemperer! Come on, he even re-wrote some of the last movement of Mendelssohn's third!


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## flamencosketches

I love all of Klemperer's EMI recordings that I've heard, even his infamous Mahler 7th, though I don't know if I'll ever be in the mood to hear it all in one sitting. His Brahms on EMI is incredible, the recordings that got me into Brahms. I really want to get the Beethoven and Mozart boxes too, though I bet the Wagner overtures and Strauss poems box is also great (I don't have as much love for that material as I do some of Klemperer's other major repertoire).

I just ordered this one:










Excited to hear the rest of it. What little I heard sounded great. Old fashioned as hell, I'm not afraid to admit. But a worthy, 20th century post-Romantic interpretation.


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## starthrower

The Wagner overtures are great. And Klemp's Strauss is very powerful. Since I've already got his German Requiem CD, I might go with this cheap set instead of the EMI Brahms set. It has Klemp's Beethoven & Brahms cycles on 10 CDs.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8389173--otto-klemperer-original-albums


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## Josquin13

Here's a list of what I would consider to be Klemperer's most essential EMI recordings:

--Brahms, Violin Concerto (with David Oistrakh; although I like Oistrakh with Szell in Cleveland, too)
--Brahms, German Requiem
--Brahms, Symphonies 1-4 (however, I prefer Eugen Jochum's Brahms Symphonies 1-4, among sets by older German conductors...)

--Beethoven, Missa Solemnis--Klemperer is one of the few conductors that follow Beethoven's original score by not bringing the chorus in too early in the Sanctus. John Eliot Gardiner & Jeffrey Tate likewise give these parts to the soloists to sing, but it's a small group of conductors that do so, & as far as I know, Klemperer was the first to pay attention to Beethoven's original score here. Most conductors bring the choir in too early, and the movement becomes imbalanced, & that's not what Beethoven wanted. For me, the Sanctus & Benedictus are at the heart of the work, along with the Gloria, so it's not an insignificant matter.
--Beethoven Symphonies--For me, Klemperer was at his best in Beethoven's 4th & 6th Symphonies, where his slower tempi work better with the content of the music: especially in the opening movements of these two symphonies.

--Wagner, Orchestral Highlights: Overtures & Preludes, etc.: https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Orche...lemperer+wagner&qid=1572913573&s=music&sr=1-3 
--Wagner Der Fliegende Hollander (or "The Flying Dutchman").

--Mahler, Symphonies nos. 2, 4, 7 & 9
--Mahler, Das Lied von der Erde

--Mozart, The Magic Flute

I've never heard Klemperer's R. Strauss or Bruckner.


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> I am just recently exploring Klemp's EMI recordings. I enjoyed the Wagner discs, and his Strauss Metamorphosen is incredible! I have a 2 disc Mozart set from the library and I like the sound of these. His Mendelssohn 3rd is great too. I'm looking forward to the Brahms symphonies, and Mahler. And exploring the Romantic box.


I don't know too much of Klemperer's catalog, but his recording of the Beethoven Grosse Fuge is outstanding and worth seeking out. I'd say only Furtwangler's WPO recording surpasses it.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> The Wagner overtures are great. And Klemp's Strauss is very powerful. Since I've already got his German Requiem CD, I might go with this cheap set instead of the EMI Brahms set. It has Klemp's Beethoven & Brahms cycles on 10 CDs.
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8389173--otto-klemperer-original-albums


That is really cheap man. I don't know about sound, etc. but if none of that is a factor then that looks like the way to go.

@Josquin, do check out his Bruckner 9 some time, I found it powerful. I liked his Bruckner 8 too but it's controversial, I understand he makes some cuts...? I'm not very familiar with Bruckner at all but Klemperer's recordings impressed me.


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## Brahmsian Colors

My favorite Klemperer/EMI interpretations:

The Four Brahms Symphonies 
Brahms Violin Concerto with Oistrakh
Brahms German Requiem

Wagner Overtures and Preludes

Mendelssohn "Italian" Symphony

Mozart "Jupiter" Symphony

Franck: Symphony in D minor

Mahler: Symphony No. 4
Mahler: Symphony No. 9

Bruckner: Symphony No. 7


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## Itullian

His Haydn is great too.


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## flamencosketches

I just got his St. Matthew Passion. Of course, this style of Bach performance is very out of fashion – I'm sure this is the kind of recording that Sir John Eliot Gardiner was referring to when he mentioned in an interview that people used to conduct Bach as if he were Brahms or Wagner – and the recording is damn near four hours long... but I think something is there. One day I'll listen to the whole thing. I just listened to the opening track and it was great, albeit super slow. What do we think, is anyone still listening to Klemperer's Bach?


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## starthrower

I'm interested in Klemperer for the romantic repertoire, not for Bach. I now have two good St Matthew sets by Leonhardt, and the Naxos recording. Haydn has never clicked for me. I have the Colin Davis symphony set on loan from the library but I just can't get into it. I listen to the old 2 disc Mozart set by Klempy which I enjoyed. His Brahms, along with Sanderling, and Solti sound good to me. His Mendelssohn Scottish Symphony is great too!


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## Manxfeeder

flamencosketches said:


> I just got his St. Matthew Passion. Of course, this style of Bach performance is very out of fashion . . . I just listened to the opening track and it was great, albeit super slow. What do we think, is anyone still listening to Klemperer's Bach?


There's something special about Klemperer's Matthew Passion. He takes you through Passion Week with the maximum impact. I've said it before here: if you hear Klemperer's version all the way through and you don't have at least a slight headache, you haven't heard it right.


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## starthrower

Manxfeeder said:


> There's something special about Klemperer's Matthew Passion. He takes you through Passion Week with the maximum impact. I've said it before here: if you hear Klemperer's version all the way through and you don't have at least a slight headache, you haven't heard it right.


Listening all the way through is the tough part with any version. The St John, and B Minor Mass at two discs is a little easier to digest. I did make it all the way through Gustav Leonhardt's St Matthew, but I haven't gone back to it for six weeks. Maybe again around Christmas time?


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## DavidA

Manxfeeder said:


> There's something special about Klemperer's Matthew Passion. He takes you through Passion Week with the maximum impact. I've said it before here: if you hear Klemperer's version all the way through and you don't have at least a slight headache, you haven't heard it right.


Slight headache? Sorry I can never get past the opening chorus. A sarabande? Not on your life!


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## DavidA

starthrower said:


> *Listening all the way through is the tough part with any version. *The St John, and B Minor Mass at two discs is a little easier to digest. I did make it all the way through Gustav Leonhardt's St Matthew, but I haven't gone back to it for six weeks. Maybe again around Christmas time?


You just need the right version performed somewhat in the way Bach might have intended it without funereal speeds.


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## Brahmsianhorn

I just got Klemp's Bach Mass in B minor and I love it. My favorite version.


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## starthrower

DavidA said:


> You just need the right version performed somewhat in the way Bach might have intended it without funereal speeds.


I enjoyed the Leonhardt recording. I thought the vocalists were superb. I also have some recordings by Parrot.


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## Manxfeeder

DavidA said:


> Slight headache? Sorry I can never get past the opening chorus. A sarabande? Not on your life!


. . . . .


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## Becca

noun: sarabande

a slow, stately Spanish dance in triple time.


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## Manxfeeder

Becca said:


> noun: sarabande
> 
> a slow, stately Spanish dance in triple time.


True. And considering the opening of the Matthew Passion is one choir encountering the other choir in an extreme stage of mourning, the relatively sprightly dance Gardiner whips up is kind of inappropriate. At least in my opinion.


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## wkasimer

Manxfeeder said:


> True. And considering the opening of the Matthew Passion is one choir encountering the other choir in an extreme stage of mourning, the relatively sprightly dance Gardiner whips up is kind of inappropriate. At least in my opinion.


Fortunately, those aren't the only choices - there's a lot of territory between Gardiner's seven minutes and Klemperer's twelve.


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## Brahmsianhorn

wkasimer said:


> Fortunately, those aren't the only choices - there's a lot of territory between Gardiner's severn minutes and Klemperer's twelve.


Agreed. For me the best approach is Jochum. Just beautiful.


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## wkasimer

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Agreed. For me the best approach is Jochum. Just beautiful.


Yes - the Jochum is one of my favorite modern instrument versions. And believe it or not, Solti's version is also excellent.


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## Manxfeeder

I'd have to say, either Klemps, Gardiner, Jochum, or whoever, any excuse to listen to the Matthew Passion is a good one.


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## Malx

I bought an inexpensive 10 cd set of Bach choral works from EMI France many years ago - it has A St Matthew Passion with soloists including Theo Altmeyer, Nicolai Gedda, Hermann Prey with the Consortium Classicum conducted by Wolfgang Gonnenwein.
Truth be told I have never listened to it as I was after other recordings in the set, until this morning - my question is simply: does anyone know this recording and if they do what are their thoughts on it.
Thanks.


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## DavidA

Becca said:


> noun: sarabande
> 
> a slow, stately Spanish dance in triple time.


A dance!!!!!!! ................


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## DavidA

Manxfeeder said:


> True. And considering the opening of the Matthew Passion is one choir encountering the other choir in an extreme stage of mourning, the relatively sprightly dance Gardiner whips up is kind of inappropriate. At least in my opinion.


You're misreading it. It's an urgent call. 'Come ye daughters.....'


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## Manxfeeder

DavidA said:


> You're misreading it. It's an urgent call. 'Come ye daughters.....'


Well, the full sentence is Come ye daughters and help me lament. They're not going to the disco; they're watching a man carrying his cross to be brutally killed. I mean, I think that's what Klemperer wants to bring out of it; it reflects the slow, halting steps of Christ carrying his cross and their realization that he is doing it for them ("Behold our guilt").

Of course, technically, I think Klemperer is taking it slower than Bach intended, but he wants to turn a sarabande into a death march.


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## Becca

^^ Don't bother, it's not worth it.


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## starthrower

Amazing!


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## starthrower

Fascinating!


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## starthrower

I'm going through the romantic box set this weekend. I've never heard anybody do Dvorak's 9th like Klemperer. I guess you could call it the New World with old world sensibilities. But I enjoyed the beauty and elegance of it even though ol' Klempy couldn't really give it the New world vibe.


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## Granate

After listening to the Tchaikovsky No.4 in the context of my symphony challenge, I'm thinking of waiting for Warner to release a complete set with all the recordings remastered, including the Beethoven cycle and buy it one Christmas. It's kind of the same with Celibidache, but this Tchaikovsky No.4 was completely the opposite to what most conductors (still don't know about the Russians) seem to do. It's a unique merciless aproach, no sharp edges or spectacular string and brass codas (like Karajan does, in the best way). With him, and his conducting, plus the touch of the orchestra, it's like the No.4 is not a "common" or "vulgar" piece of music anymore.










I've heard a little of the No.5 just for pleasure and the woodwinds sounded a bit odd... I'll soon rate it in context.


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## Granate

Wow. Anyone ever seen this 1929 picture?










Sorry if it's off-topic.


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## Manxfeeder

Granate said:


> Wow. Anyone ever seen this 1929 picture?


Wow. As far as musical greats in one room, I think that beats that picture with Elvis with Jerry Lee and the rest of the Million Dollar Quartet.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Granate said:


> Wow. Anyone ever seen this 1929 picture?
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if it's off-topic.


Alright, who's the one in the middle between Toscanini and Klemperer? The rest I recognized instantly but I'm drawing a blank on him.


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## DavidA

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Alright, who's the one in the middle between Toscanini and Klemperer? The rest I recognized instantly but I'm drawing a blank on him.


Erich Kleiber?................


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## Granate

It's Erich Kleiber indeed.

This could qualify as the Avengers meme.


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## flamencosketches

Granate said:


> Wow. Anyone ever seen this 1929 picture?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if it's off-topic.


Damn, Klempy was a giant. Great pic.


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## Heck148

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Alright, who's the one in the middle between Toscanini and Klemperer? The rest I recognized instantly but I'm drawing a blank on him.


This is a quite well known picture...Eric Kleiber between AT and Klemp.


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## realdealblues

Granate said:


> Wow. Anyone ever seen this 1929 picture?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if it's off-topic.


Thanks, I hadn't seen that photo before. Some titan's there!


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## Malx

flamencosketches said:


> Damn, Klempy was a giant. Great pic.


Not really he just stood on a pile of Bruckners discarded scores


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