# Carl Orff's non-Carmina Burana works



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Don't get me wrong--Carmina Burana is an excellent work and it is the reason I am so interested in Latin today. But I believe the reason Carmina Burana became so popular is the fact that it's less avant-garde than most of Carl Orff's other music.

One reason I like Carl Orff so much is because he set ancient Latin to music multiple times. Carmina Burana is part of a trilogy of pieces known as _Trionfi_, the second and third parts of which are _Catulli Carmina_ (Catullus love poems set to music) and _Trionfo di Afrodite_ (Catullus and Sappho wedding poems set to music). I've also been interested in _Antigonae_. Carl Orff's non-Carmina Burana music tends to use little orchestration beyond percussion and piano and it can be a bit jarring and odd. The rest of _Trionfi_, for example, is reminiscent of Stravinsky's _Les Noces_ and Carl Orff himself cited it as inspiration.

Anybody else interested in Carl Orff's lesser-known music? Any suggestions?

Just for reference, here's a selection of the opening of _Catulli Carmina_:


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I particularly enjoy

- Son of Carmina Burana
- Carmina Burana Strikes Back
- Carmina Burana Unchained
- Bride of Carmina Burana
- Godzilla and Mothra Meet Carmina Burana.

As you say, Orff has other franchises, but I haven't seen them.


----------



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Carmina Burana 2: Rise of the Revenge?


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm one of the countless who's got Carmina Burana and nothing else. I like CB but rather than checking out the other parts of the Trionfi I've been toying with checking out Der Mond and Die Kluge instead (especially as they are usually paired together on disc) but have never got around to it.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Catulli Carmina(the songs of Catullus ) is based on the poems of the Roman poet Catullus . It's a very interesting work sung entirely in latin, but it's not performed often because instead of using a regular orchestra,
it uses a large ensemble of percussion alone .


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Tristan said:


> Don't get me wrong--Carmina Burana is an excellent work and it is the reason I am so interested in Latin today. But I believe the reason Carmina Burana became so popular is the fact that it's less avant-garde than most of Carl Orff's other music.


_In its time, Carmina Burana was considered "radical" because of its simplicity. Its repetitive, insistent rhythms and repeated litanies were perceived as "primitive" and "threatening," not unlike the post McCarthy-era 1950s US response to "the primitive African rhythms of Rock and Roll music which threaten to corrupt our youth and make all our daughters pregnant."

Orff composed and released Carmina Burana during the height of the Nazi era, although Orff was not a Nazi sympathizer, and indeed had friends within the "White Rose" underground. This was the music coming out of Germany at the time, though, and it freaked a lot of people out because it seemed pagan, un-Christian, *perhaps even (gasp!) Satanic in nature, *despite the fact that it is in part a cautionary tale about the dangers of over-indulgence. Admittedly, Germany had tapped-into its own darkside, and people in the US were obviously rattled by anything which might "invoke the evil side of Man's psyche."

The almost verbatim imitation of Orff's invocatory chorus by *Jerry Goldsmith* in "The Omen" series of antichrist movies revived the feelings of dread felt towards 'Orffianisms' in God-fearing American moviegoing popcorn-munchers in Kansas, Nebraska, and other isolated socially-retarded areas of the Midwest, and sparked an increase in gun sales nationwide. The "Devil's Chorus" which appeared whenever "Damian" pulled one of his Luciferian pranks is unmistakably based on Orff's Latin-chanting chorus._



Tristan said:


> Anybody else interested in Carl Orff's lesser-known music? Any suggestions?


_I got interested in Orff beyond *Carmina Burana* when I did some research to defend him on-line. An old poster on that "other forum," who *tragically* got banned, posted a whole thread dedicated to trashing Orff, entitled "The Deplorable Character of Carl Orff" or something like that. It's gone now.

These works are interesting:_


----------



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

^That's a fascinating bit about Orff. It makes sense; the repetitive almost pagan sound of his music is part of why I like it. It's very raw and very Roman. The rest of Trionfi is even more "primitive" and "pagan" than Carmina Burana. (They are ancient Roman and Greek lyrics after all, and Sappho's and Catullus' lyrics include pagan chants to the god of weddings).


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> _...God-fearing American moviegoing popcorn-munchers in Kansas, Nebraska, and other isolated socially-retarded areas of the Midwest..._


This goes beyond offensive.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> This goes beyond offensive.


Tell ya what, KenOC. I'll delete my posts which you think are offensive, if you'll delete the ones of yours I feel to be offensive.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

MR, you know he was joking, right?


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

science said:


> MR, you know he was joking, right?


Humor usually doesn't translate on-line, as this example shows.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Anybody ever heard that German electronica on the SKY label with Eno, Moebius, and Roedelius (aka Cluster)? This sounds like it influenced them.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> This goes beyond offensive.


Yes, it is nearly 'transcendent.' It would be ironic as all hell if it was written by a party sitting at their computer in, say San Antonio or Austin, Tx 

I'm in the 'middlewest' and just saw a world-class performance of 'La Boheme' at a world-renown opera house (maybe it is that venue's 'down-hominess' which seduced Renee Fleming to become its advising artistic director?).

But then agin, when we're not working our land or settin on the poach in the rockin' chair spitten from a chaw of baccy, us farmers jess loves our enertainmens... though our feets hurt when they been in shoes that long.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> Tell ya what, KenOC. I'll delete my posts which you think are offensive, if you'll delete the ones of yours I feel to be offensive.


Oooh, fellas -- the board would be practically NUDE if you both did that.


----------



## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Tristan said:


> Anybody else interested in Carl Orff's lesser-known music? Any suggestions?


I enjoy almost all Orff's less-known works: Der Mond, Die Kluge, Catulli Carmina, Trionfo di Afrodite and of course Antigonae (His last major work De temporum fine comoedia I haven't heard yet, also not that keen on his Monteverdi adaptation Orpheus). But I have to confess that if I first listened to such works as Catulli Carmina or Trionfo di Afrodite, I didn't get Orff as one of my favorite composers i.e. all his other workes had their especial taste for me after I had the idea that they are written by the composer of the famous Carmina Burana! Well, to be honest I have the same problem with some other composers like Holst and The Planets.


----------



## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Here are the recordings I have:




























Also watch this, an old production of Der Mond:


----------



## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

The other two works of the 'Trionfi' are well worth exploring. "Catulli Carmina" only has instrumental scoring (two pianos and percussion) for the first section and the reprise at the very end, otherwise the work is performed a Capella. However, the scoring in that first section is fascinating in a minimalist kind of way (be aware, the words are very sexually explicit, so it helps of you don't know Latin).
'Trionfo di Afrodite' has soloists, choir and orchestra throughout, but it is a much sparser work than 'Carmina Burana' though in many respects no less interesting. A good CD of both works can be found in HMV Classics (£5.99) with the Munich Radio SO, etc conducted by Franz Welser-Most. Herbert Kegel also recorded both works and, if you can find them, are excellent performances.
There is a very interesting historic recording of all 3 works on Major Classics with the Chorus & Orchestra of the Bavarian Radio under Eugen Jochum in which the words in 'Catulli Carmina' are changed (censored?) which, if you know the translation, means that the ladies of the chorus are rejoicing in a rather gay way!


----------



## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Haven't heard it in years, but his Oedipus opera was really interesting.


----------



## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Der Mond is good. Rather "Folksy". De Temporum Fine Comoedia is good but I found the first part a bit much. The second and third are more interesting.


----------



## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

*Die Kluge*

My favorite Orff work is "Die Kluge", after the Grimm fairy tale. Given the fine, but overplayed "Carmina Burana", I really wonder why that opera isn't being performed more often. One of the reasons may be that it's only an hour long, and therefore often combined with another scenic work for performance, often with the similar, but much less effective "Der Mond". Combined they seem to cancel each other out. If you'd ask me (but who does), I'd let the piece stand by itself; it really can.

It's a dramaturgically totally round piece that contains drama, great humor, and some surprisingly profound comments on despotism. I'm not trying to make Orff into a resistance fighter (he had arranged himself quite well with the powers), but for a work that premiered in Munich in 1943, it's sometimes surprising how sarcastically it comments on the arbitrary acts of terror which that king commits.

The piece also makes sense character-wise; the king is very intelligent but emotionally infantile and apparently just bored out of his mind. When he meets his match, and finally realizes how much she loves him, he emotionally grows and no longer needs to torment his environment.

I also like the language in the libretto - Orff has created a highly stylized, pseudo-medieval form of German that works very well for the piece. He also uses long-forgotten, very lively and spirited verbal expressions that he had found in various old sources, to spice up the libretto and give the era credibility.

As for recordings, the best-known seems to be the one with Elisabeth Schwarzkopf under Sawallisch, but I much prefer the one with Lucia Popp under Kurt Eichhorn.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

_million_, can you say more about this:

img.OrffDeTemporumFineCo079.jpg

?

I have the LP of this performance, but haven't yet cleaned and listened to it. Haven't made up my mind whether I _want_ to; the plot is a might off-putting going by the jacket notes. Does the music save it?


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> _million_, can you say more about this:
> 
> img.OrffDeTemporumFineCo079.jpg
> 
> ...


I couldn't find that link; you will notice that it's not highlighted like a "live" link should be.

De Temporum is interesting from a comparative religion standpoint; it centers around the early Christian theologian Origen's Greek-inspired De principiis, about the end of the world, and its transformation into pure spirit. Of course, this, (and all early Gnostic views) were later discredited in 300 B.C. by the Church fathers at the Nicene convention. It seems that a "non-material" world was too "Eastern" in flavor. Besides that, if "nothing is real" and all is illusion or _maya,_ then Christ's sacrifice would not have real substance. For Man to be redeemed, all this stuff had to be real.

The Greek Sibyls foretell the end as well; Satan is transformed back into Lucifer, and makes an appearance.

What might most disturb people about all this is the idea that "the end of all things will be the oblivion of all guilt." (Origen) This could be seen as Orff's final attempt to redeem Germany, and WWII, and all war in general, as being "erased" like letters on a wax tablet. All guilt absolved, nay, eradicated? Never happened? This might be too much for some to bear.

But I find the work fascinating, not only for its ideas, but its existence as a "complete art" as the Greeks saw it, music not divorced from dramatic action. It is rather unsettling, with people yelling things in German, so proceed with caution, all you Cinderellas out there. In the meantime, you can always watch "The Omen" series on DVD; it seems people are much less "cautious" when it comes to movies. :devil::lol:


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

^ ^ I copied your link. Apparently you feel that the music doesn't 'stand alone' well; that does not recommend the work to me; I am not at all interested in the philosophy.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> ^ ^ I copied your link. Apparently you feel that the music doesn't 'stand alone' well; that does not recommend the work to me; I am not at all interested in the philosophy.


You're welcome. :lol: What's a nice guy like you doing on a thread like this?

However, you _*did*_ mention that "the plot is a might off-putting going by the jacket notes. Does the music save it?", hence my mention of the "plot."

This is opera territory, or perhaps we should call it a "philosophical oratorio." Really, the work must be approached as a drama; there's a lot of "chanting" and repetitive invocations, which is really more dramatic in nature than "musical." Some of it does sound rather sinister; no wonder it freaks out those people in Idaho and Nebraska. :lol:

Not being an opera freak myself, I find this work to be more engaging than many operas I have tried.


----------



## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

Ebab said:


> My favorite Orff work is "Die Kluge" ...


Two corrections (shouldn't trust my memory): The opera premiered in Frankfurt am Main, and clocks around 1 h 20 min.


----------

