# History of Performance



## Theophrastus

I'm not sure which forum this fits into, so apologies if I've [email protected] it up, but I have a question that I'm hoping all you well-educated people can answer... 

I would like to know how and when the conventions of classical concerts evolved - the musicians in evening dress, the ritual, the applause in the right places, the implied distance between performers and audience, etc. I assume this evolved in the 19C... but can anyone elaborate?

A side question is also what you all feel about these conventions. Do you like or indeed cherish them, and if so why? Or do you think they drive a wedge between classical music and the public? Also interested to know if and how performance conventions are changing now?


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## Vesteralen

Late 19th century is probably right, but I don't think it became standard practice not to clap between movements till the 20th Century. I read somewhere that Mahler had to specify in advance that the audience was not to clap between sections of his "Kindertotenlieder".

Personally, I kind of hate the convention. There are places that just seem to call out for an audience response (like the end of the first movement of the Brahms Piano Concerto #1). Also, it makes new people attending their first concerts experience tremendous embarrassment on occasion.


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## Polednice

Vesteralen said:


> There are places that just seem to call out for an audience response (like the end of the first movement of the Brahms Piano Concerto #1).


:O Absolutely not!!! 3rd movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony I can understand, but not the Brahms! Anything but the Brahms!


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## Vesteralen

Polednice said:


> :O Absolutely not!!! 3rd movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony I can understand, but not the Brahms! Anything but the Brahms!


All right, if you insist.

I'll do my clapping in the privacy of my study (though the neighbors in the next apartment will definitely wonder what's going on, especially if I have my headphones on).


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## Weston

I remember hearing it was Toscanini, or someone from that time period, who insisted on the stuffy no clapping ritual. I always thought this was pretty silly for new or unknown pieces. What if the composer runs two movements together, as many of them do? I want to enjoy the music, not count movements in mortal fear. 

I also hate the ubiquitous black and white tuxedo ritual. I would love to see an orchestra wear -- I don't know, all blue for a change. I enjoyed Jordi Savall's L'Orfeo when everyone dressed in period outfits.


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## itywltmt

Back to Mahler for a second - he did, indeed establish most rules of concert etiquette while he was the Viennese court's Kappelmeister, including preventing tardy concertgoers from getting to their seats mid-way through a performance. Story goes that, at one such occasion, he stopped the orchestra midstream, and stared at the tardy patron as he made his way down to his seat. That must've been pretty embarrassing!


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## itywltmt

Vesteralen said:


> Late 19th century is probably right, but I don't think it became standard practice not to clap between movements till the 20th Century. I read somewhere that Mahler had to specify in advance that the audience was not to clap between sections of his "Kindertotenlieder".
> 
> Personally, I kind of hate the convention. There are places that just seem to call out for an audience response (like the end of the first movement of the Brahms Piano Concerto #1). Also, it makes new people attending their first concerts experience tremendous embarrassment on occasion.


Sometimes, performers get so involved in the works that the clapping does break their concentration, and that of the other attendees...

There are, however, "traditionally acceptable" applause breaks between movements, such as at the end of the first movement of Tchaikovsky's Violin concerto


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## Argus

Theophrastus said:


> A side question is also what you all feel about these conventions. Do you like or indeed cherish them, and if so why? Or do you think they drive a wedge between classical music and the public? Also interested to know if and how performance conventions are changing now?


There should be at least one left-handed violinist in every orchestra.

I checked out Gabriel Prokofiev's Concerto for Turntable and Orchestra the other day. The soloist (the DJ) was wearing a 't-shirt'. I was so disgusted I almost choked on my vol-au-vents.


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## Theophrastus

itywltmt said:


> Sometimes, performers get so involved in the works that the clapping does break their concentration, and that of the other attendees...
> 
> There are, however, "traditionally acceptable" applause breaks between movements, such as at the end of the first movement of Tchaikovsky's Violin concerto


So there is a reason for it, then. I had assumed that rule was invented by music snobs to make non-cognoscenti feel small, as, er, happened to me once.


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## Polednice

Theophrastus said:


> So there is a reason for it, then. I had assumed that rule was invented by music snobs to make non-cognoscenti feel small, as, er, happened to me once.


Silly traditions are very rarely created to actually create a divide; snobs just like to hold onto them for no other reason than to promote a divide.


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## superhorn

There are some musicians,particularly pianists, who say that they find applause between movements unnerving. They claim it upsets their concentration.


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## Jobe

superhorn said:


> There are some musicians,particularly pianists, who say that they find applause between movements unnerving. They claim it upsets their concentration.


And I think it's for reasons like this that we don't need to clap. It means I have some ardent concert-goer applauding like a performing seal when I'm trying to record and rip off people's music from the radio... err... Forget that.

I get enough people clapping when playing Irish Music. Instead, they clap throughout. F%%K OFF, I CAN KEEP TIME WITHOUT YOUR HELP.

I think the big-long-clap at the end of the concert is fine because it means that strange-crazy-fastidious performers are kept happy, the miserable sods. oO


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