# The classical vs the romantic tendency in contemporary music



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I don't have much of a view here and I probably have a poor understanding of quite what the classical and romantic tendencies look like in different guises. I equate the classical tendency with discipline, restraint and attention to form. In contrast, the romantic tendency is more about expression (and ego) and intensity. In all periods it has probably been possible to identify both tendencies in music (Mozart was perhaps more romantic than Haydn and Brahms was surely a very classical Romantic composer). Similarly, most works probably have elements of both. Perhaps they are opposite polls and everything falls between the two. 

Anyway, a lot of music is being written today and there is enormous variety among the practitioners. We can divide it up by reference to how tonal it is or isn't or how experimental. But we have done quite a lot of that lately. How about where different composers sit on the classicism vs romanticism spectrum? Does it map onto the tonal vs atonal spectrum or does it cut across or miss it completely? How about the avant garde vs traditionalist spectrum?


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2018)

Ooh this is an age old idea, and I like to think of it in terms of a musical entanglement of Apollonian and Dionysian ideals. Many compositions can be argued in either way, of course, but I suspect that one would be apparent over the other (to varying degrees, of course) on the surface but the other would be coexisting with it underneath the surface.

Ferneyhough's music, for me, has more the Dionysian/romantic element on the surface, but his compositional process balances the intuitive side of musical expression with the more structured Apollonian/classical formalisations and permutations generating material for him to work with.






Someone like Steve Reich, for me, is more _classical_ and restraint, Apollonian, I guess, on the surface. His musical processes are often audibly apparent, however there's a kind of Dionysian chaotic intensity about the intricate layers and rhythmic relationships between every instrumental or vocal line in his composition that finds its own kind of balance between the two.






I will probably be listening and re-listening to quite a bit of music with your questions in mind now. It's always refreshing to discover new things in music by asking new questions. I'd just like to thank you for these questions, because they sure are interesting!


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

The OP starts off discussing the relative classical and romantic 'tendency' of composers in the 18-19th centuries. Therefore, the use of the term 'classical' seems to be tied to the Classical era which ended long ago. But, since romanticism (depending on how strictly one defines it) seems to have continued to a greater or lesser extent to the present, I'll assume the subject is romanticism in atonal and avant-garde music.

(In case, the term 'classical' was meant to be used more generally, then I would say that trying to differentiate classicism vs. romanticism in atonal music the way it is done with tonal music in the OP, would be almost impossible. In Ferneyhough-type music I'd say the whole question is irrelevant since I reject it as classical music.)

I'm not a fan of most atonal music, but I can (grudgingly perhaps) hear elements of romanticism in the following:

Schoenberg Piano Concerto Adagio:






But, using Ferneyhough as the poster boy for avant-garde music, romanticism? Definitely not. Not even a teeny, tiny bit.

Ferneyhough String Quartet #6:


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

DaveM said:


> The OP starts off discussing the relative classical and romantic 'tendency' of composers in the 18-19th centuries. Therefore, the use of the term 'classical' seems to be tied to the Classical era which ended long ago. But, since romanticism (depending on how strictly one defines it) seems to have continued to a greater or lesser extent to the present, I'll assume the subject is romanticism in atonal and avant-garde music.
> 
> (In case, the term 'classical' was meant to be used more generally, then I would say that trying to differentiate classicism vs. romanticism in atonal music the way it is done with tonal music in the OP, would be almost impossible. In Ferneyhough-type music I'd say the whole question is irrelevant since I reject it as classical music.)
> 
> I'm not a fan of most atonal music, but I can (grudgingly perhaps) hear elements of romanticism in the following:


Of course, you are welcome to read the subject of the thread any way that works for you but I didn't invent the idea of there being classical and romantic tendencies running through the history of art (and not exclusively located in the periods named as such). That's why I gave the examples of romantic tendencies in Mozart and classical tendencies in Brahms.

My question in the OP concerned music by living composers and I certainly didn't want to restrict this to atonal music - which many here believe is a musical dead end. Quite a lot of more or less tonal music is being written now (eg many Scandinavians, the Minimalists and those who followed them, many others) as well as avant garde music and I have been hoping that some of its many fans would post about it on this thread. But I certainly didn't intend the thread to be solely about the avant garde or atonal music (which are only a part of the picture of new music and many would say the less important part). I do agree about the Schoenberg, I think.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

I suppose I'm not very well-verse in very contemporary music so I don't know if I can comment on that. But in the case of the Second Viennese School, I'd say that Schoenberg is classical, Berg is romantic, and Webern is perhaps classical as well but more modern than Schoenberg. I feel like, rather than a line with classical/romantic, it's more of a triangle with classical/romantic/modern. For example I'd call Feldman modern/romantic and Reich modern/classical, maybe Mozart classical/romantic and Brahms romantic/classical (based on expression and structure). I'm not sure how broad the term "contemporary" can be, but if it means composers who are still around composing, or at least in the 21st century, I haven't gotten into that much yet. There is one guy, Jeremy Soule, who composes music for video games that I really love (he's actually one of my favorite composers of all time). I'd say he fluctuates between romantic and classical, usually with a little bit of both, with a great understanding of both techniques


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

Michael Nyman majored Baroque music and often refers to Baroque ~ Classical era in his compositions. I sometimes feel the melancholy of English Renaissance ~ Baroque music in his works. He said he needed system or form for his compositions, because he tended to become too sentimental without it. This seems to have an affinity with Classical mentality.



Enthusiast said:


> How about where different composers sit on the classicism vs romanticism spectrum? Does it map onto the tonal vs atonal spectrum or does it cut across or miss it completely? How about the avant garde vs traditionalist spectrum?


Very vaguely, I think atonal music (if this means 12-tone, serialism, complexity etc.) is more directly connected to the tradition of Romanticism, while contemporary tonal music (I am thinking of post minimalism ~ totalism) have more resonance with Classical. However, most of tonal film music (orchestral) seem to borrow a lot from Romanticism.


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