# Would like to see piano reductions of orchestral works



## ChrisBrewster (Jul 4, 2014)

I'm an amateur musician with a good ear and a year of theory but lacking real music training. Many of the greatest musical works have large scale and large orchestras. I often want to understand such works better on a theory level, but full orchestral scores make my head spin -- the tangle of clefs, keys, instrumental tunings, and so forth -- with maybe 40 separate lines on a page. I'm just trying to understand harmony, structure, transitions, modulations, and so forth. My ideal is the kind of piano reduction used in vocal scores to represent the orchestra. Fortunately some of the great symphonies, such as Mahler's "Das Lied von der Erde" have vocal lines, so a vocal score exists with a piano reduction -- just what I want. But what about, say, Prokofiev 5 or Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra? Anyone know if study scores exist for such purely instrumental works? Certain works also have piano transcriptions, but these tend to result in elaborate piano writing to create textures (you need to hear Liszt's transcription of the Eroica!). Still, these might be helpful for my aim. But is anyone aware of "skeletal" study scores like what I've described for any more than a smattering of orchestral works?


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

You mentioned the Liszt-Beethoven transcriptions, which came to my mind, too. I know Brahms used to arrange his big orchestral works for piano 4 hands, so if you go to IMSLP then "Arrangements and Transcriptions" you can find those. You might need to do some stitching to make them appear on top of each other, though... but that IMSLP tap might have other helpful arrangements.

Honestly, though, it might be worth the investment in your time to teach yourself how to read an orchestral score. Even though there might be fifteen or twenty staves per system, there usually aren't more than three or four independent musical ideas going on at once, and the eye can quickly see which parts are playing the same melody. Starting with smaller forces, such as in Mozart, Haydn, or Beethoven, might be a good way to learn this, and then work your way through Mendelssohn, Schumann, and Brahms. Maybe a real conductor would be able to help you with this more than I could. But until then playing scores on the piano is definitely a great way to study them!


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## REP (Dec 8, 2011)

To my knowledge, such a thing does not exist. The closest thing would be a solo piano arrangement, which you mention as being too complex/difficult. But keep in mind that arrangements vary in complexity/difficulty depending on the piece and the arranger, so there might be less elaborate arrangements out there that you might like. I know I enjoy the Elgar and Bruckner symphonies in solo-piano form, and I don't find the arrangements any more difficult than a Wagner or Puccini vocal score.

Also, if you like vocal scores, remember that concertos are very similar. You might not be able to find solo piano arrangements of Prokofiev's symphonies, but you can definitely find piano arrangements of his concertos. (As Monsalvat said, just find the work on IMSLP and click on the "Arrangements and Transcriptions" tab; if the tab is missing, then there are no arrangements for that particular work.)


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

This man is working on transcribing all the Mahler symphonies for solo piano.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

First off, there is no composer friendlier to conductors and students than Prokofieff: he wrote his score in concert pitch! No transposing necessary.

Practically the entire standard repertoire is available in piano transcriptions; making them was quite a business back in the day. I know all of the Mahler symphonies (even the 10th) have been given the treatment. IMSLP is a great source for these versions, but they haven't got everything. A lot of great scores (the Raff 5th) are for piano four-hands: they're difficult to study, I think; part of the music on the left, more on the right. Gets confusing.

There's a surprising number of conductors who use piano reductions in concerts - not in rehearsal. I've used them many times, especially doing Nutcracker. It saves a lot of page turning. Just write in some important cues and it makes things so much easier than a full score.

And yes, Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra is available in piano reduction: Béla Bartók - Concerto for Orchestra (Piano) (Facsimile)


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> IMSLP is a great source for these versions, but they haven't got everything.


In the case of Prokofiev, there's only the composer's arrangement for solo piano of the Classical Symphony. I was surprised to see there are no piano arrangements of symphonies 2-7. But Prokofiev's music is still non-PD in most of the world, including the EU. I guess that in january 2024, when his works enter the public domain (70 years after death), a lot more will be uploaded.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

These are rather splendid...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mozart-Hummel - Symphony 40


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## ChrisBrewster (Jul 4, 2014)

REP said:


> To my knowledge, such a thing does not exist. The closest thing would be a solo piano arrangement, which you mention as being too complex/difficult. But keep in mind that arrangements vary in complexity/difficulty depending on the piece and the arranger, so there might be less elaborate arrangements out there that you might like. I know I enjoy the
> 
> 
> Luchesi said:
> ...


Since this is the internet, I'll begin with OMG -- someone is transcribing the Mahler symphs to piano? Just what I'd like to see.


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## ChrisBrewster (Jul 4, 2014)

Monsalvat said:


> You mentioned the Liszt-Beethoven transcriptions, which came to my mind, too. I know Brahms used to arrange his big orchestral works for piano 4 hands, so if you go to IMSLP then "Arrangements and Transcriptions" you can find those. You might need to do some stitching to make them appear on top of each other, though... but that IMSLP tap might have other helpful arrangements.
> 
> Honestly, though, it might be worth the investment in your time to teach yourself how to read an orchestral score. Even though there might be fifteen or twenty staves per system, there usually aren't more than three or four independent musical ideas going on at once, and the eye can quickly see which parts are playing the same melody. Starting with smaller forces, such as in Mozart, Haydn, or Beethoven, might be a good way to learn this, and then work your way through Mendelssohn, Schumann, and Brahms. Maybe a real conductor would be able to help you with this more than I could. But until then playing scores on the piano is definitely a great way to study them!


Thanks for the response. I probably left the impression that I could _play_ a piano reduction, but not the case. I played trombone in a few amateur orchestras and brass groups, taught myself some piano but am not even close to sight-reading piano music. Plus I'm old and just trying to understand what I hear. 

I don't know how to do "reply all" to the many helpful responses, but I'm encouraged to hear that more works have piano versions than I was aware of. Got to dig in on IMSLP.


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## ChrisBrewster (Jul 4, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Mozart-Hummel - Symphony 40


The scores you show from YouTube are quite interesting. Now I'm wondering which of these are on IMSLP.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

My music score library is odd, but I've got several operas transcribed down to vocal with Piano transcription, including all of the *Gilbert & Sullivan* operettas. I've got a few piano transcriptions of orchestral works, including *William Tell Overture* and *Finlandia*.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

pianozach said:


> My music score library is odd, but I've got several operas transcribed down to vocal with Piano transcription, including all of the *Gilbert & Sullivan* operettas. I've got a few piano transcriptions of orchestral works, including *William Tell Overture* and *Finlandia*.


Virutally every opera has a piano score: it's needed for rehearsing and so singers can learn their parts. Even operas that have never had the full score published usually had a piano score made, and often engraved for printing. Sometimes the composer provided only a piano score and hired others to do the orchestation - that's a real chore in itself.


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