# Anyone else creeped out by countertenors?



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I mean, I'll listen to an opera they're in, but something about their voice just creeps me out. sorry, not hip, i know, but that's it. 

give me a soprano,please.


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

I'm not creeped out, but I'm not a fan. But then I'm not that huge a fan of tenors even (I know, blasphemy). It took a Jonas Kaufmann with his dark timbre to get me interested in tenors at all--I was always a fan of baritones.

To each her own!

I haven't actually seen any operas with countertenors as I am one of those sad fans of the late 19C works, but I am always disappointed if I happen onto an oratorio or something that has a countertenor--I much prefer an alto in those parts.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

No, I'm not at all creeped out. Although there are some pretty mediocre countertenors aout there I'd rather not listen to, thank you very much). The reason for countertenors is that it simulates the voice of the old 'castrati'. Castrati were among the most powerful and well-paid artists of their time (the late 17th and 18th centuries saw their heyday). At a time when women were (mostly) not allowed to pursue creative or performing careers (or any careers at all, come to that), high voice parts were written for these castrati. Of course it is possible for women to sing these parts today (and sometimes they do), but one loses some of the original intended sound when this happens.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I remember a music show on TV where they played a very old recording of, I think, the only known castrato still plying his trade at the time - about 1900 (can't remember his name, though). What with the attendant crackles and other sonic limitations I have to say I thought it sounded VERY eerie. Can't help wondering what four or five of them singing together would sound like!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

There are also contemporary operas making a very good use of the countertenor voice. Just an example:


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I hate to admit it, because I've come to appreciate them, but still, they are kind of creepy; the voice doesn't match the body.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

The only thing that creeps me out is that 'castrati'...what a perverse notion.

Still, I can't help remember and laugh thinking about Gregory Hines in History of the World Part I.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Yep. It's an acquired taste, but a taste I think I'll never acquire. I usually check out the credits on CDs and DVDs to make sure there are no countertenors. 

It's odd, though, because I didn't have nearly the same problem back in the day with Franki Valli (though "Walk Like a Man" always made me crack up) or the Beach Boys. Go figure.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Vesteralen said:


> Yep. It's an acquired taste, but a taste I think I'll never acquire. I usually check out the credits on CDs and DVDs to make sure there are no countertenors.
> 
> It's odd, though, because I didn't have nearly the same problem back in the day with Franki Valli (though "Walk Like a Man" always made me crack up) or the Beach Boys. Go figure.


Franki Valli is one of my favorites! Also the dude that sings high in the Bee Gees!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

A whole lot of sacred music from the Middle Ages and Renaissance had parts now sung by countertenors. It sounds 'right' to me.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> A whole lot of sacred music from the Middle Ages and Renaissance had parts now sung by countertenors. It sounds 'right' to me.


It doesn't jar as much in that setting, I'll admit, but only because we've been accustomed to expect it. Personally, though, I don't normally listen to "sacred" music if I can avoid it. Also, standing in a choir isn't the same thing as moving around and emoting.

And, before someone points out that "falsetto" (as in Frankie Valli) isn't the same thing as singing countertenor.....I know that. The sense of hearing a grown man singing like a little boy (or a vibrato-less woman) is still similar.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

i think this production looks completely magnificent.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

Yes, truly magnificent. Most effective staging and acting and superb voices. This is my first encounter with Monteverdi's Return of Ulysses and I am impressed. Thank you.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

When Britten used a countertenor in his Midsummer Night's Dream, it kind of seemed to me like he picked that voice range to enhance the creepiness of the music he wrote for Oberon (who, in this opera, is _pretty creepy_). Countertenors are pretty cool when they are _deliberately_ creepy. And personally, I'm impressed with men who can sing higher than me.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

FragendeFrau said:


> I'm not creeped out, but I'm not a fan. But then I'm not that huge a fan of tenors even (I know, blasphemy). It took a Jonas Kaufmann with his dark timbre to get me interested in tenors at all--I was always a fan of baritones.
> 
> To each her own!
> 
> I haven't actually seen any operas with countertenors as I am one of those sad fans of the late 19C works, but I am always disappointed if I happen onto an oratorio or something that has a countertenor--I much prefer an alto in those parts.


I like the countertenor voice in certain contexts although there are many who are not so good; just as there are certain singers in all vocal ranges I do not care for. I agree with you in that I prefer a tenor who has a Baritonal base to his voice such as Kaufmann, Vickers or Vinay. I prefer the deeper toned instruments, both vocal and instrumental.

One of the most effective uses of the Countertenor voice is Oberon in Britten's Midsummer Nights Dream.


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

GoneBaroque said:


> One of the most effective uses of the Countertenor voice is Oberon in Britten's Midsummer Nights Dream.


I can imagine this would work very well, and I would like a countertenor for this purpose--deliberate creepiness. Can't watch at work but I'll try to remember to watch it tonight--thanks!


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## CountessAdele (Aug 25, 2011)

They do unsettle me a bit, yes probably because its not the sound I expect to come form their body. Makes me think of a ventriloquist doll, which is pretty creepy as well.
I like tenors and baritones but love listening to bass voices. I don't know why, but bass voices, especially basso profondo, just enthrall me. And I love duets between a low bass and a high soprano, like Osmin and Blondchen's, "Ich gehe, doch rate ich dir". Good stuff.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

*Anyone else creeped out by countertenors?*

Only when they look into my bedroom window.

Philippe Jaroussky, that court order is still in effect!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

CountessAdele said:


> I like tenors and baritones but love listening to bass voices. I don't know why, but bass voices, especially basso profondo, just enthrall me. And I love duets between a low bass and a high soprano, like Osmin and Blondchen's, "Ich gehe, doch rate ich dir". Good stuff.


I agree. Sam Ramey is my all time favourite & Ruggero Raimondi is a very close second.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I've only ever listened to a countertenor once, because I thought he looked cute. I turned it off after 10 seconds.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Vesteralen said:


> Yep. It's an acquired taste, but a taste I think I'll never acquire. I usually check out the credits on CDs and DVDs to make sure there are no countertenors.


This is pretty much my take on the subject. If there are two versions of an opera with a given role sung by a tenor in one version, and by a countertenor/mezzo in the other, I will always opt for the version with the tenor. For recordings of oratorios, I look for versions with a contralto/mezzo rather than a countertenor. I understand the historic reasons for the prominence of the castrati in the late 17th and 18th centuries. But I simply cannot imagine what the attraction was of watching a grown man singing with the voice of a child (though enhanced by the lung capacity of the adult).


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Everyone jolly better avoid this like the plague then:










It's absolutely hopping with countertenors - not a woman in the cast, following the custom of the Papal court for whom it was written.

I am obviously in a minority (I'm pretty sure along with Aksel and karenpat) who loves countertenors. I'd choose the countertenor version of an oratorio - as long as I knew the singer (eg Scholl, Mehta, Jaroussky etc). I agree there are some terrible hooty shockers out there.

Here's a creepy song for fans of creepy countertenors:


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Yes. I'm with Nat on this. I loves me some countertenors, although I do agree that some can be rather hooty and awful. 
But we've come a long way since the days of Alfred Deller, who I actually don't care much for.

EDIT: And that Purcell song was awesome, Nat! I loved it! Is it on an album of his?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aksel said:


> And that Purcell song was awesome, Nat! I loved it! Is it on an album of his?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Oh... I love the Cold Song! I saw another video of Scholl performing it live. While I tend to prefer the female mezzo or alto to the countertenor... and even more so to the choir boy... I have come to really love a number of countertenors. I am continually on the outlook for anything by Andreas Scholl, Phillipe Jaroussky, Robin Blaze, Micheal Chance. Scholl and Jaroussky are especially fine performers of the Baroque repertoire...











But both have done a lot to expand the possibilities of the countertenor repertoire:






Jaroussky's performances of French 19th century songs on his disc, _Opium_, are absolutely stunning... and bring a certain unnerving decadence to the songs:






Scholl discusses countertenors:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm not "creeped out" by them, but like some of the others above, I like counter-tenors in sacred music mainly, they add this ethereal quality (as do boy trebles). I think in opera that's not always integral to the music, but the Britten example someone talked to above does sound like he was using this voice colour with specific reasons in mind. Esp. in terms of deciding to do that in the modern era, by which time it had long kind of gone out of fashion. I have heard Ian Bostridge do some modern art-song and I must say I don't usually favour that high tenor kind of voice, I find it kind of wierd, but he's okay once you get used to him. Similar thing with Peter Pears (although niether are counter-tenors, I just thought I'd reflect on normal tenors higher in the range)...


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## MAnna (Sep 19, 2011)

Wow, a lot of hate for countertenors. Perhaps at first blush it seems disconcerting, but it shouldn't be any different than seeing a woman in a trouser role (Jennifer Larmore as Julius Caesar).

After listening to a few Baroque operas, the voice seems natural to me. In fact, I saw Gluck's Iphigenie en Tauride a few years ago and wrongly commented that I expected the lead singer to be a countertenor. A lady attending the show pointed out to me that French opera didn't employ countertenors.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

A lady attending the show pointed out to me that French opera didn't employ countertenors.

Nor were they fond of castrati... which seems to have been a particularly Italian and English "perversion". The French liked their women.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

When it comes to countertenors I find the combination of grown man vs boy-choir-voice so bizarre that my reaction is to laugh. I can't help it, but it's my last choice of voice - mainly because nothing about it moves me.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

Holy ****, imagine "Tosca" in drag. He sounds a bit like an ageing soprano - but the top notes are quite impressive. Still bizarre though. That voice coming out of a grown, bald man with a beard. *confused*


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Operafocus said:


> Holy ****, imagine "Tosca" in drag. He sounds a bit like an ageing soprano - but the top notes are quite impressive. Still bizarre though. That voice coming out of a grown, bald man with a beard. *confused*


I'm guessing this may be something close to what the castrati actually sounded like. But, again, I can't imagine what the attraction was of hearing this type of voice coming from an adult male (minus the beard, of course).


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I'm guessing this may be something close to what the castrati actually sounded like. But, again, I can't imagine what the attraction was of hearing this type of voice coming from an adult male...

From what I have read on the castrati the attraction was the ability to hit the same high notes as a soprano combined with the increased lung capacity of the adult male to allow for increased projection and increased ability to hold notes for an extended period of time. The Baroque, remember, was all about virtuosity... fireworks.


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## Yoshi (Jul 15, 2009)

There's nothing creepy about it. The voice matching or not the performer's "looks" is the last thing I worry about. As long as I enjoy listening to the actual voice, it's fine for me. Female or male who cares...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

For some men countertenor is the natural singing range: for example Bejun Mehta, who was a virtuoso boy soprano but had no success after his voice broke. From wiki: 


> Mehta had attempted for several years to sing as a baritone, without much success. He became intrigued with idea that he might actually be a countertenor, after reading a 1997 New Yorker profile of the countertenor David Daniels, whose early experiences seemed to mirror his own. He began to experiment with singing in this range, and quickly discovered and developed his powerful and flexible countertenor voice, *his natural range for singing*.


Now he is one of the best countertenors in the business.

Listen to Andreas Scholl singing in his perfectly ordinary baritone (verse 3, 0.55). Same would go for him, I imagine.


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Listen to Andreas Scholl singing in his perfectly ordinary baritone (verse 3, 0.55). Same would go for him, I imagine,


Thanks Natalie! I haven't heard it before.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Operafocus said:


> Holy ****, imagine "Tosca" in drag. He sounds a bit like an ageing soprano - but the top notes are quite impressive. Still bizarre though. That voice coming out of a grown, bald man with a beard. *confused*


Yeah, if he'd just shave off that beard, it'd be fine.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

ooopera said:


> Thanks Natalie! I haven't heard it before.


It's the song that got me into countertenors several years back. We were listening to the radio in the car, and this came on. My then four-year-old loved it, wanted to hear it again, so I did some research, got it from the library, and I've never looked back.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I like countertenors, provided that they're good.
Whoever loves Handel like I do, must at least like countertenors otherwise he/she will miss some very good performances.
Scholl, Jaroussky, and Mehta are excellent.


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## jdavid (Oct 4, 2011)

There are a new bunch of countertenors who don't make me freak out: well, Andreas Scholl, maybe 50 y/o started this trend or new approach to training the voice, he teaches in Basel, I think (really beautiful voice, his Handel is perfect), Max Emanuel Cencic (former Vienna Boys Choir Soprano) is very fine and even masculine in his delivery (even though he has a dress on a lot), and Philippe Jaroussky, a French countertenor has probably the smoothest high range in the biz. Problem is this: you gotta like Baroque opera to even have a chance at getting into this rarified air. The movie 'Farinelli' was good, and the voice was a studio-mix of Derek Lee Ragin American countertenor, and a soprano (Hungarian maybe) unknown to me and they produced a voice for the movie that was incredible in works of Handel and Porpora and others. I still prefer women, tho.



Itullian said:


> I mean, I'll listen to an opera they're in, but something about their voice just creeps me out. sorry, not hip, i know, but that's it.
> 
> give me a soprano,please.


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

MAuer said:


> I'm guessing this may be something close to what the castrati actually sounded like. But, again, I can't imagine what the attraction was of hearing this type of voice coming from an adult male (minus the beard, of course).


What? Aren't modern countertenors castrated? 
Countertenors are okay. As long as they're not wearing drag.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

eorrific said:


> Countertenors are okay. *As long as they're not wearing drag*.


But women romping around in breeches pretending to be men are fine?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Coincidentally, I just realized that Jaroussky is giving a recital this week in a nearby metropolitan area. I'll attend!


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> But women romping around in breeches pretending to be men are fine?


Not necessarily, no. I just don't get the whole Baroque concept of not matching voice to persona. It makes me uncomfortable. I'm willing to put up with it once in a while for the sake of hearing good music, but I'd rather they hadn't done it that way. For me, it never adds anything worthwhile to the experience, it just detracts from it.

Fortunately, there's enough music I like that I don't have to feel deprived if I don't fixate on Baroque opera.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Vesteralen said:


> Not necessarily, no. I just don't get the whole Baroque concept of not matching voice to persona. It makes me uncomfortable. I'm willing to put up with it once in a while for the sake of hearing good music, but I'd rather they hadn't done it that way. For me, it never adds anything worthwhile to the experience, it just detracts from it.
> 
> Fortunately, there's enough music I like that I don't have to feel deprived if I don't fixate on Baroque opera.


I don't suppose it's anything like Shakespearean actors taking on the female roles because it was a man's job? I can understand someone just not liking it, but it's strange that you should find it uncomfortable. :/


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Polednice said:


> I don't suppose it's anything like Shakespearean actors taking on the female roles because it was a man's job? I can understand someone just not liking it, but it's strange that you should find it uncomfortable. :/


It doesn't bother me to be thought strange.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Vesteralen said:


> Not necessarily, no. I just don't get the whole Baroque concept of not matching voice to persona. It makes me uncomfortable. I'm willing to put up with it once in a while for the sake of hearing good music, but I'd rather they hadn't done it that way. For me, it never adds anything worthwhile to the experience, it just detracts from it.
> 
> Fortunately, there's enough music I like that I don't have to feel deprived if I don't fixate on Baroque opera.


Not to mention not fixating on Idomeneo, La Clemenza di Tito, Le Nozze di Figaro, La Donna del Lago, Guillaume Tell, Semiramide, Anna Bolena, I Capuleti e I Montecchi, Faust, Roméo et Juliette, Cendrillon, Chérubin, Les Contes d'Hoffmann, Hänsel und Gretel, Der Rosenkavalier, Ariadne auf Naxos, Un Ballo in Maschera, Don Carlos etc etc etc.

They've all got breeches roles; sometimes these are the leads.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Not to mention not fixating on Idomeneo, La Clemenza di Tito, Le Nozze di Figaro, La Donna del Lago, Guillaume Tell, Semiramide, Anna Bolena, I Capuleti e I Montecchi, Faust, Roméo et Juliette, Cendrillon, Chérubin, Les Contes d'Hoffmann, Hänsel und Gretel, Der Rosenkavalier, Ariadne auf Naxos, Un Ballo in Maschera, Don Carlos etc etc etc.
> 
> They've all got breeches roles; sometimes these are the leads.


Yeah...well, no big deal anyway. I can take or leave them.

Though, for some reason, I don't have as much of a problem with the masquerade-like role-playing within the context of the story as I do the simple one-sex-singing-the-part-that-should-be-sung-by-the-other thing. I don't have the same feeling of disconnect with one as I do with the other.

But, anyway, I'm only talking about my personal reaction (as always). There is no preaching involved in any of this. Like what you like, it's okay by me.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Not to mention not fixating on Idomeneo, La Clemenza di Tito, Le Nozze di Figaro, La Donna del Lago, Guillaume Tell, Semiramide, Anna Bolena, I Capuleti e I Montecchi, Faust, Roméo et Juliette, Cendrillon, Chérubin, Les Contes d'Hoffmann, Hänsel und Gretel, Der Rosenkavalier, Ariadne auf Naxos, Un Ballo in Maschera, Don Carlos etc etc etc.
> 
> They've all got breeches roles; sometimes these are the leads.


The lovely Michèle Losier was an excellent Siébel in the recent Faust


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Vesteralen said:


> It doesn't bother me to be thought strange.


I've gotten *so* used to it by now.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Vesteralen said:


> Yeah...well, no big deal anyway. I can take or leave them.
> 
> Though, for some reason, I don't have as much of a problem with the masquerade-like role-playing within the context of the story as I do the simple one-sex-singing-the-part-that-should-be-sung-by-the-other thing. I don't have the same feeling of disconnect with one as I do with the other.
> 
> But, anyway, I'm only talking about my personal reaction (as always). There is no preaching involved in any of this. Like what you like, it's okay by me.


I have to quote myself and laugh at myself on this one. This post leads to the inevitable question, "So what about THe Marriage of Figaro?"

I suppose if you extend the "logic" of my sentiments to this work, I would be saying I'd rather see a countertenor playing the part of Cherubino. Am I right that Mozart wrote the part for a soprano? Maybe not. I don't know.

I just watched a couple different versions of it on DVD and both of them had a soprano in the role.

Good thing I didn't like the opera much to begin with. I'd be in a real quandary.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I don't suppose it's anything like Shakespearean actors taking on the female roles because it was a man's job?

Yes, indeed. There was an element of that. Bach was limited to using choirboys for the alto and soprano roles because of religious strictures concerning women limited to certain sections of the church. I came across a paper somewhere exploring Bach's frustration with this limitation, especially after he had traveled to Dresden where he was able to witness the superior orchestra of the Dresden court including some of the best operatic sopranos as they performed a work by Johann Adolph Hasse.

The use of castati in music as we know it started in Italy with the use of such singers as altos and sopranos in church choirs. This was necessitated again by the rules against female singers. At the same time, the "operation" would allow a talented pre-pubescent male singer to continue in his career into adulthood. The popularity of the castrati was an offshoot of the popularity of the new art form: opera. No opera could be a success in Italy or England that did not have major roles for the castrati. The French, on the other hand, deplored the use of castrati, and the Germans being more conservative and more focused upon music for the church would not abide such an abomination. While the castrati were wildly popular, they were also equally reviled and mocked. The practice also led to all sorts of abuse. At the height of the craze, over 4000 boys were castrated each year. Thousands died from overdose of opium of some other pain-killers. Many lived shortened lives.

The term "countertenor" came about in England around the same time as the castrati, and countertenors filled the contralto, mezzo-soprano, and sometimes soprano roles in English choral music which could not be performed by women and most certainly not by something as "unnatural" as a castrato... in spite of the fact that castrati were frequently employed in Italian churches... even St. Peter's. Countertenors date back to the middle-ages. The entry in Wikipedia states:

_The contratenor was a voice part added to the basic two-part contrapuntal texture of discant (superius) and tenor (from the Latin tenere which means to hold, since this part "held" the music's melody, while the superius descanted upon it at a higher pitch). Though having approximately the same range as the tenor, it was generally of a much less melodic nature than either of these other two parts. With the introduction in about 1450 of four-part writing by composers like Ockeghem and Obrecht, the contratenor split into contratenor altus and contratenor bassus, which were respectively above and below the tenor..._

_In the Catholic Church during the Renaissance, St Paul's admonition "mulieres in ecclesiis taceant" ("let the women keep silence in the churches" - I Corinthians 14:34 ) still prevailed, and so women were banned from singing in church services. Countertenors, though rarely described as such, therefore found a prominent part in liturgical music, whether singing a line alone or with boy trebles or altos._

Purcell composed significant higher roles for male countertenors in both his music for the church, and his operas such as the _Faerie Queene_. The use of the countertenor did not long outlast Purcell. For better of worse, Handel introduced the castrati along with other modern Italian operatic elements to England... and beyond and few roles were written for countertenor until the 20th century.

Alfred Deller was one of the leading singers and champion of authentic early music performance. His group, the Deller Consort, was important in increasing audiences' awareness and appreciation of Medieval, Renaissance, and Baroque music. Benjamin Britten wrote the leading role of Oberon in his setting of _A Midsummer Night's Dream_ especially for him; the countertenor role of Apollo in Britten's _Death in Venice_ was created by James Bowman, the best-known amongst the next generation of English countertenors. With the increasing interest in "early music" there was a huge revival of Baroque opera... especially the works of Handel. The roles that had once been played by castrati now became the domain of either female mezzo-sopranos and sopranos performing them as "trouser roles" (a female singer playing a male character), or increasingly by countertenors.

It would seem to me that employing the male countertenor makes more sense in terms of performing male roles once reserved for castrati, than using female singers in drag. I still lean toward the use of female singers for female role.

As for being "creeped out"... seriously I don't find the countertenor any more unnatural or artificial than any other operatic voice. They are all quite artful and far removed from the natural speaking voice. I have no problem with a mezzo-soprano such as Magdalena Kozena performing Bach arias that would have been reserved for choirboys, or for mezzo-sopranos such as Elīna Garanča playing the role of Romeo to Anna Netrebko's Juliette in "_I Capuleti e i Montecchi_" by Vincenzo Bellini. Why should I be creeped-out by countertenors exploring new territory such as Philippe Jaroussky performing 19th century French melodies by Debussy, Faure, and Hahn? I saw an interview with Jarossky and Andreas Scholl in which Scholl was asked about a role he'd love to play that he'd never been offered. Without blinking, he responded "Carmen" and Jaroussky added that he could play Don Jose. The very idea... Carmen in drag... would certainly be worthy of consideration.:lol:

With the increased interest in Baroque opera in the late


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm not "creeped out" by countertenors, but just don't like hearing (or seeing) an adult male character singing with a voice that clearly sounds female. That said, I do find use of countertenors in roles written for the castrati preferable to a mezzo or soprano in "trousers" -- particularly if I'm watching and not just listening to an opera.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Countertenors are weird, disgusting, and unnatural.

Give me a castrato every time.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

MAuer said:


> I'm not "creeped out" by countertenors, but just don't like hearing (or seeing) an adult male character singing with *a voice that clearly sounds female*. That said, I do find use of countertenors in roles written for the castrati preferable to a mezzo or soprano in "trousers" -- particularly if I'm watching and not just listening to an opera.


Really? You think so?
Sure, the range of a countertenor is similar, if not the same as contraltos, mezzos, sometimes even sopranos, but I've never thought the countertenor voice sounds very female. The voice is high, but it lacks a certain "warm" quality that female voices have. You can in a way say that a countertenor sounds "colder" than a female singer, and it is that cold quality that sets it apart from female voices and makes it almost instantly recognisable.

Compare these two recordings of the same aria; countertenor Bejun Mehta and the mezzo Maria Riccarda Wesseling singing the same aria, Sento la gioia, from Händel's Amadigi:


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I don't like countertenors for the reason that I don't generally like high-pitched singing (so this applies for many female singers too). I think anyone who doesn't like countertenors because their voices are 'basically female' ought to be questioning their ideas of gender stereotypes a little more.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aksel said:


> Really? You think so?
> Sure, the range of a countertenor is similar, if not the same as contraltos, mezzos, sometimes even sopranos, but I've never thought the countertenor voice sounds very female. The voice is high, but it lacks a certain "warm" quality that female voices have. You can in a way say that a countertenor sounds "colder" than a female singer, and it is that cold quality that sets it apart from female voices and makes it almost instantly recognisable.
> 
> Compare these two recordings of the same aria; countertenor Bejun Mehta and the mezzo Maria Riccarda Wesseling singing the same aria, Sento la gioia, from Händel's Amadigi:


The YouTubes I'm getting are not with the same aria. One is Ombra Cara di mia Sposa with Joyce DiDonato, and the other one is Sento la gioia with Wesseling.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Smokey Robinson.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

I have heard some countertenors sing on occasion in a baritone voice as Andreas Scholl does here.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

GoneBaroque said:


> I have heard some countertenors sing on occasion in a baritone voice as Andreas Scholl does here.


You mean . . . that weird, high-pitched voice . . . he's just been *faking* it all along???


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I understand the whole historical-perspective thing, and I've heard a countertenor interviewed on one DVD who had what I would call a medium-ranged speaking voice, so I know it's a "talent" to be able to sing like that, and not just some freak of nature, and I'm not trying to belittle it (though others on this thread may be).

But, in much the same way, I know that clowns and mimes have talent, too. It doesn't bother me that other people like to watch them and will even pay to see them. But, I won't. It's a talent I don't appreciate. Same with countertenors. I don't really like the sound, and as with the painted faces of clowns and mimes, I don't enjoy watching them either. Sorry. No amount of "listen to this!" is going to change the way I feel about it. I can be amazed at something without, at the same time, liking it.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Vesteralen said:


> *No amount of "listen to this!" is going to change the way I feel about it.* I can be amazed at something without, at the same time, liking it.


Absolutely. I feel the same about Luciano Pavarotti and Joan Sutherland.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Vesteralen said:


> I understand the whole historical-perspective thing, and I've heard a countertenor interviewed on one DVD who had what I would call a medium-ranged speaking voice, so I know it's a "talent" to be able to sing like that, and not just some freak of nature, and I'm not trying to belittle it (though others on this thread may be).
> 
> But, in much the same way, I know that clowns and mimes have talent, too. It doesn't bother me that other people like to watch them and will even pay to see them. But, I won't. It's a talent I don't appreciate. Same with countertenors. I don't really like the sound, and as with the painted faces of clowns and mimes, I don't enjoy watching them either. Sorry. No amount of "listen to this!" is going to change the way I feel about it. I can be amazed at something without, at the same time, liking it.


Oops. So you're probably not gonna' like the countertenor clown I sent to your house.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I can't wait.

Everyone relax, I just don't like the sound. Sounds like my bad falsetto.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Oh well, I have tickets for Jaroussky's recital tonight, so later I'll tell you whether or not he creeped me out.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Oh well, I have tickets for Jaroussky's recital tonight, so later I'll tell you whether or not he creeped me out.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Don't like contraltos either. 
Men should sound like men and women like women. yeeeeehaaaaa!

Janowitz, Schwarzkopf, de Los Angeles, Callas ahhhhhhh 
Corelli, Bjoerling, Frick, Hotter ahhhhhhhhhh 

boy, am I in trouble...............


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## Festat (Oct 25, 2011)

I love contraltos, but I have to admit I'm kinda creeped out by countertenors.
It just doesn't sound... right. :lol:


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Jeeeez, men necessarily sound like men regardless of the pitch of their voice because they _are_ men so that's what men can sound like!!!


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> The YouTubes I'm getting are not with the same aria. One is Ombra Cara di mia Sposa with Joyce DiDonato, and the other one is Sento la gioia with Wesseling.


That's because I'm a stupid. I'll fix it shortly.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I have edited the post to include the right video clip, as per your request.


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## Philmwri (Apr 8, 2011)

I don't hate them. The question is why do they want to sing like that? Some contraltos sound a bit manly in their lower registers but at least I know they are singing naturally. Not everyone likes hearing falsetto.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Philmwri said:


> I don't hate them. The question is why do they want to sing like that? Some contraltos sound a bit manly in their lower registers but at least I know they are singing naturally. Not everyone likes hearing falsetto.


As I said in a previous post, some of them PREFER to sing like that. It suits them better. It's MORE natural for them, not less.

Of course this doesn't mean that you have to like the sound, just because I do.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Back from the Philippe Jaroussky concert. Simply spectacular. Wow! One of the best concerts I've ever attended. It was mostly operatic music so I'll review it for the Opera forum rather than the orchestral music forum.
PS - Not creeped out at all. Sublime!

Reviewed here.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

I have read that some baritones were advised by vocal teachers that if they trained as a countertenor they could have a more rewarding career. There are more second rate baritones than first rate countertenors.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Aksel said:


> Really? You think so?
> Sure, the range of a countertenor is similar, if not the same as contraltos, mezzos, sometimes even sopranos, but I've never thought the countertenor voice sounds very female. The voice is high, but it lacks a certain "warm" quality that female voices have. You can in a way say that a countertenor sounds "colder" than a female singer, and it is that cold quality that sets it apart from female voices and makes it almost instantly recognisable.


Sorry, but to my ears, the sound made by countertenors doesn't sound even remotely like an adult male.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I've watched and listened to so much baroque opera, it no longer even occurs to me that it could be odd. Last night I was watching Teseo and the hero - a male soprano - was singing in a higher tessitura than his girlfirend and I had to stop and think - some people might find this odd. What made it funnier was that physically he's quite manly, at one point he was singing impeccably while carrying quite a large mezzo around in his arms and he didn't even break a sweat.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

It's amazing to me that a thread with such a silly premise as this gets to be so active.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

MAuer said:


> Sorry, but to my ears, the sound made by countertenors doesn't sound even remotely like an adult male.


But apart from the height, does it sound like a adult female?


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Aksel said:


> But apart from the height, does it sound like a adult female?


The height is precisely the problem. This is not the normal sound of the adult male voice.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

The height is precisely the problem. This is not the normal sound of the adult male voice.

How is this a problem? The whole of opera is artificial. I don't know too many people whose day to day voices sound anything like most opera voices... let alone the countertenor. The reality is that this thread is about nothing more than personal bias or prejudice. Its well and fine to admit that you don't like a particular singing style or vocal type... but to suggest that such a voice in "unnatural" assumes that the other types of vocals that you are used to are "natural"... when the fact is you are simply accustomed to them.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Well, yeah, but the normal tenor voice type is _more_ natural, comparatively or relatively, etc. It's commonsense to say that. There were the three tenors - Pavorotti, Carerras, Domingo - whose first 1990 Roman concert in particular was a huge success, it kind of made opera mainstream. Would you see the same thing happening with "the three counter-tenors?" I don't think so, to be honest.

But yes, habituation (being "accustomed") is important. But as far as I can gather, the normal tenor voice is more natural to us today than say 300 years ago when the counter-tenor was seen as normal. So it's also about historical context, but I don't want to complicate matters...


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I don't think the thread is silly. I know many that don't like the countertenor sound. it doesn't sit well. that's all.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

[QUOTEStlukesguildOhio;225656The reality is that this thread is about nothing more than personal bias or prejudice.[/COLOR] Its well and fine to admit that you don't like a particular singing style or vocal type... but to suggest that such a voice in "unnatural" assumes that the other types of vocals that you are used to are "natural"... when the fact is you are simply accustomed to them.[/QUOTE]

Well, of course it is. I don't think any of us who don't particularly enjoy listening to countertenors ever suggested that it was anything else. But the fact remains that the "normal" or "natural" pitch of the adult male voice -- speaking, not necessarily singing -- is lower than that of the countertenor's singing voice.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I think that already well into the 21st century, this fach has already proven beyond any reasonable doubt its feasibility and its technical refinement. We can of course debate role by role (in Baroque opera) if a soprano or a female alto are best suited for a particular role than a countertenor, but generally speaking you just can't revile an entire fach.

And of course there are all the new roles written for countertenor in operas of the 20th and 21st centuries.

This is a fach that, as we know it today, was developed in the 20th century, starting from some technical features that had survived, fragmented in different schools (some remnants of the haute-contre, present in Oberlin; the survival of the mixte in the Romantic repertoire,..) but that many singers have worked hard and been able to expand the possibilities of this male register and build a new fach, that is now capable to face the roles written for the 'castrati'. Deller couldn't sing those roles, Jaroussky can.

This fach has been built, yes, but that doesn't mean it won't be "natural". There is no contradiction. In my view, what is needed here is more hearings and a little thinking on those hearings. The singing of a good countertenor is natural, not an artificial affectation. Forty years of humble development of the fach prove this fact.

A couple of good examples of the already burgeoning status of the fach in the late 1980s, by Henri Ledroit:


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Itullian said:


> I mean, I'll listen to an opera they're in, but something about their voice just creeps me out. sorry, not hip, i know, but that's it.


I've gotten used to them now, but in my early days as an opera lover I thought they were hilarious. Especially if they played heroic roles. Out comes this guy who's supposed to give everyone the shakes, he opens his mouth and out comes this totally wimpy sound.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

the fact remains that the "normal" or "natural" pitch of the adult male voice -- speaking, not necessarily singing -- is lower than that of the countertenor's singing voice.

The "normal" range of speaking for most adults is also quite removed from what you find in what is sung by a tenor or a soprano. Again, the whole of opera and the method of singing is quite "artificial"... quite removed from the "natural" voice. It would seem to me that the difficulty some have with the manner of singing employed by the countertenor is no different from the difficulty many others have with the classical/operatic mode of singing in general.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Yes, opera singing as a whole is artificial compared to some other ways of doing it, but the issue is that within opera, the counter-tenor voice is even more removed from "normality," even more artificial, if you like. Surely this is commonsense? It's like within the realm of folk musics, Central Asiatic throat singing is more artificial than just normal folk singing without those kinds of wierd effects...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Yes, opera singing as a whole is artificial compared to some other ways of doing it, but the issue is that within opera, the counter-tenor voice is even more removed from "normality," even more artificial, if you like. Surely this is commonsense? It's like within the realm of folk musics, Central Asiatic throat singing is more artificial than just normal folk singing without those kinds of wierd effects...

In other words... the use of the traditional tenor or soprano is more common... by this point in history. The Baroque audience would have found the castrato more common than the tenor and the use of countertenors and choirboys as opposed to female singers would have been quite common to Bach and various Renaissance and Medieval composers. What we think of as the "normal" manner of singing would surely be quite different from what other generations and cultures think of as "normal". Just listen to the "weird" effects of Byzantine chant:






Yet is this any less "natural"... any more artificial/artful than the vocals of Monteverdi, Mozart, or Wagner? It may surely be less familiar... less commonplace to us today... but certainly no less artificial.

I will also suggest that a great many of those who have little difficulty with the countertenor are also those who are quite fond of "Early Music" and especially Baroque opera.

Still... these remain among my favorite performances by a countertenor... of an oeuvre most certainly never written with such a vocalist in mind:











And how can you not love the pure camp of Scholl doing Carmen?:






:lol:


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> And how can you not love the pure camp of Scholl doing Carmen?:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow. An all-male Carmen needs to happen soon, if anything, just for the utter lolz.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

That might not be too far off the mark


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I'm very fond of pyrotechnics of any kind (vocal, physical - ie, thrills and very physical acting during singing). I want singers to wow me with their skills, the more "unusual" the better, reason for which I generally value elastic voices over powerful ones. A visual and aural mismatch just adds to the fun.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

The part of me that wants to appear cool and contemporary longs to say "I've grown to like countertenors". But, I haven't. I've watched a lot of opera DVDs over the last year and there still isn't a single instance where I would not have preferred to see and hear anyone else do the part. Sorry. I'm backward and provincial (and old), but that's just the way I honestly feel.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

What does liking countertenors have to do with being "cool" or "contemporary"?

Here is a fascinating video from Glenn Gould's TV broadcasts of Bach's _Cantata 54_ featuring Gould and the great countertenor, Russell Oberlin... dating from the quite some time ago.

As I suggested in an earlier post, countertenors, castrati, and choir boys would have been quite common in the roles now sung by women in earlier eras.

My question for those who struggle with the concept of the countertenor is: Have you simply say down and listened to the singing... tried to appreciate it (or not) based solely upon what you hear... or is it merely the idea of this voice coming "unnaturally" from a male singer that disturbs you?


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> What does liking countertenors have to do with being "cool" or "contemporary"?


Well, say you _don't _like countertenors among the opera cognoscenti and just see what reactions you get. 

It's contemporary because, forty years ago, when I was first getting into classical music, they were virtually unheard of outside of groups like the Deller Consort.



> Here is a fascinating video from Glenn Gould's TV broadcasts of Bach's _Cantata 54_ featuring Gould and the great countertenor, Russell Oberlin... dating from the quite some time ago.
> 
> As I suggested in an earlier post, countertenors, castrati, and choir boys would have been quite common in the roles now sung by women in earlier eras.
> 
> My question for those who struggle with the concept of the countertenor is: Have you simply say down and listened to the singing... tried to appreciate it (or not) based solely upon what you hear... or is it merely the idea of this voice coming "unnaturally" from a male singer that disturbs you?


This is all well and good. (And, don't think I don't appreciate your comments, Stlukes. I love your posts and I look forward to reading them.)

But, the point is, as I said above - I *have* listened to countertenors. In the last year so I've seen literally dozens of opera DVDs starring countertenors in various roles. I'm not "creeped out" by them, as it says in the thread title.

There are a lot of talented people in different types of music sung around the world in various cultures. I can admire their skills without having the desire to go to one of their concerts or buy their recordings.

I can appreciate their talent. I would never say that some of them aren't very gifted. Iestyn Davies in "Poppea" actually gave a pretty moving performance as Otho, I thought. In spite of that, being honest, I would prefer the role to be sung in a tenor voice.

As far as being "unnatural" - it's a concept I struggle with on different levels. I also find I don't enjoy opera on DVD when any singer, male or female, doesn't really seem "natural" for the role. I have a hard time, for example, _watching_ with the necessary suspension of disbelief a performance of a woman dying of hunger or consumption when the singer playing her clearly doesn't look even close to wasting away from illness because she's dozens of pounds overweight. No one would ever be casted to play a part like that in those circumstances in a movie. But, because she has a great voice, opera lovers generally ignore the dichotomy. I just can't seem to do it. Opera on DVD is a visual medium, not a strictly aural one, and I have a hard time getting around that. Do these great singers deserve to play these roles? Certainly. If I'm not entertained by it, I daresay it's my fault. But, I'd rather listen on a recording to that great voice than try to pretend she visually fits the role.

The same thing can be said about a man playing a very masculine, or even sinister role, and singing with the voice of a little boy. If a tough guy in a movie opened his mouth and spoke in the voice a child, people would laugh. But, because it's
opera, with its long history of castrati and so forth, people are expected to overlook the unusualness of it and enjoy the performance. Fine. I just find, after hours of trying, that I can't really do it.

But, when it comes to countertenors, I'm afraid it's more with me. Even on recordings, I don't enjoy the sound they make. Every time I hear one I can't help thinking I'd enjoy the selection much, much more if sung in a true female voice.

I hope none of this comes across as an attempted put down of anyone. It isn't intended that way. But, I don't see why I can't just be honest about how things strike me.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

By the way, I don't like organ music either. Some organ music is obviously among the greatest music ever composed. I just don't like the sound of the organ - I never have and I probably never will. 

It's a far cry from admitting that is a fact and saying something like "all organ music should be destroyed", or "other people are crazy for liking organ music", isn't it?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

below are just some musings of mine, don't take them as any kind of challenge to your post. At the end of the day, if you don't like the sound you don't like it and that's that.



Vesteralen said:


> if sung in a true female voice.


but do countertenors want to sing _like women_ rather than _like men with a strong high register_? Or do contraltos want to sing like men? Maybe some do, but I personally don't judge countertenors against sopranos or contraltos against, say, baritones. I see it as pushing the limitations of the male or female voice.

I don't know that one _actually_ suspends disbelief even on CD when a man is singing a female part or the other way around. It's more a "well, why not?" kind of thing than a "wow, you mean that was a man?!" thing - at least for me. If you go to the theatre these days you often enough see single gender casts or people playing leading roles cross-gender. It surely is very good for a performer to have to go out of his/her comfort zone and it is interesting for the audience as well (or else they'd stop doing it).


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

It surprises me that people still get 'creeped out' by this concept.

Its just a man singing in falsetto, get over it.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

deggial said:


> but do countertenors want to sing _like women_ rather than _like men with a strong high register_? Or do contraltos want to sing like men? Maybe some do, but I personally don't judge countertenors against sopranos or contraltos against, say, baritones.


What they intend when they sing is irrelevant to me in this case. I'm just talking about the sound of it. Even on a recording I can most often tell whether I'm listening to a countertenor or a female alto (I admit - once I was fooled). Most often, there is a notable tonal difference in the sound the voice makes. I find one tone pleasing to my ears, the other, not so much.



> I don't know that one _actually_ suspends disbelief even on CD when a man is singing a female part or the other way around.


You make a good point. Isn't a trouser role potentially just as ludicrous as a male heavy coming out with a high-pitched voice? Probably. I can't say I really _like_ either very much. But, I do find one easier to ignore than the other. It's not an easily answerable question.

Honestly, though, if I invited someone who was totally unfamiliar with opera over to watch _Guilio Cesare _on DVD, I would anticipate a slightly different reaction from these two things. If a woman shows up playing Sesto, I might have to explain what was happening, but I would expect the reaction to be - "Okay..that's kind of weird...but, if you say so.."

But, in the next scene, when world-conqueror Julius shows up and starts singing in a high-pitched voice, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if my friend (whoever he or she might be) would either laugh out loud or stare at the screen and say, "You've got to be kidding me!" I can't explain why in exact detail, but one would likely seem more ludicrous than the other.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Vesteralen said:


> What they intend when they sing is irrelevant to me in this case. I'm just talking about the sound of it.


I get that, I was very specifically responding to your comment on "a true female voice". It seemed to me you implied you did care what their intention was.



> But, in the next scene, when world-conqueror Julius shows up and starts singing in a high-pitched voice, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if my friend (whoever he or she might be) would either laugh out loud or stare at the screen and say, "You've got to be kidding me!" I can't explain why in exact detail, but one would likely seem more ludicrous than the other.


I think it's interesting to observe the change in perception in regards to who should sing what (especially the high notes). In 1724 Handel wrote the role of Giulio Cesare for a castrato but Sesto was written for a woman right off the bat, presumably because Sesto is a teenager. Or because it would've cost more to hire a second castrato once he got one as famous as Senestino for the title role? Don't know the details in this case, but there is evidence that this was a frequent practice. In 1786 Mozart wrote Cherubino for a woman (even Beaumarchais imagined this role played by a woman), yet it's obviously a straight boy we're talking about. At the bgeinning of the 19th century, as the castrati fell out of fashion (along with Baroque opera), Rossini went on to write successful male hero roles for mezzos/contraltos. A case could be made that opera became slightly more realistic around 1850. The male hero's pitch was lowered and it stayed like that until Baroque opera made a comeback in the past 30 or 40 years and here we are discussing this.

is it ludicrous for the same reasons two men kissing tends to be less appealing than two women kissing? or is it just because our image of a manly man doesn't gel with a high pitched voice? but why would people from 200 years ago be less fussed about it? I think it's ultimately our attitude to opera - we're taking it a lot more seriously now and expect it to be less artificial.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

deggial said:


> I get that, I was very specifically responding to your comment on "a true female voice". It seemed to me you implied you did care what their intention was.


no..that was just poor word choice on my part



> or is it just because our image of a manly man doesn't gel with a high pitched voice? but why would people from 200 years ago be less fussed about it? I think it's ultimately our attitude to opera - we're taking it a lot more seriously now and expect it to be less artificial.


That may be, but I wasn't thinking about people who have any expectation at all toward opera - more people who aren't familiar with it period.

I'd worry more about my feelings toward the role-playing part of it if that were the _only _thing preventing me from liking countertenors. In my case, it seems pretty hopeless because I also just don't like the sound very much. Like organ music - listening to more of it doesn't make any difference. I already get the _talent_ part of it. I just don't _like _it very much.

Please understand, I didn't jump on this thread to argue for a point of view. I was more interested in pointing out that there may be people who don't like countertenors, not because they are "creeped out" by them, but for other reasons. From my point of view, there is no reason for anyone to have to justify why they like the sound of countertenors. And, there should be no reason for me to justify why I don't.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

it's all good, I just felt like voicing out some thoughts on the subject. I didn't mean to put you on the spot.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

How would some people react listening to a Belcanto opera, like _Norma_ or _Anna Bolena_, hearing the tenor sings everything above G3 in _falsettone_?.

However, this would the 'philological' approach, and the closest thing to the way Donzelli or Rubini sang those roles. 

In the case of the _castrati_, as we all agree that having thousands of musically gifted children castrated to select the best a few years later to sing Opera, is no longer an option, we need a viable solution. Because the original intent, the reason why those roles were sung by that type of voices, was to emphasise their bigger-than-human nature. They could be gods, mythological beings or invincible warriors, mighty kings... The peculiar timbre of the _castrato_, and the high notes, were the right way to underline this nature. Though the singing in falsetto of the countertenor is not exactly the same thing, it possess those qualities in a higher degree than a female low fach, in most cases.

Why did Rossini wrote the role of Tancredi for a female alto instead of a _castrato_?. Apart from the availability of great alto singers like Adelaide Malanotte or Rosmunda Pisaroni, he still felt the need of using a special timbre for the heroic roles, and there were no longer a large number of _castrati_ around.

So, using countertenors for Baroque Opera, is an informed and, in my view, appropriated decision.

Then again, personal tastes are ... well, personal. Nothing wrong with that.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

schigolch said:


> Because the original intent, the reason why those roles were sung by that type of voices, was to emphasise their bigger-than-human nature. They could be gods, mythological beings or invincible warriors, mighty kings... The peculiar timbre of the _castrato_, and the high notes, were the right way to underline this nature. Though the singing in falsetto of the countertenor is not exactly the same thing, it possess those qualities in a higher degree than a female low fach, in most cases.


I did not know that.

But, were those the only times castrati were to be used?

I wonder about roles like Telemaco in Monteverdi's Return of Ulysses. Some versions have this sung by a tenor, others a countertenor. The role doesn't seen to call for a countertenor as your statement above suggests. Since it's possible for productions to plug in non-countertenors into parts originally written for castrati, is it possible that the reverse also happens? Or, was the role of Ulysses also intended for a castrati and Telemacus, as his son, was to be seen as a heroic figure just like his dad?

Or maybe Monteverdi fell a bit outside the era you're talking about.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Yes, I was talking mainly about the role of the _castrati_ in Baroque's "Opera Seria", and the use of their voice, the high-pitch and the 'canto fiorito' as a kind of symbol of elevated values.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

schigolch said:


> Yes, I was talking mainly about the role of the _castrati_ in Baroque's "Opera Seria", and the use of their voice, the high-pitch and the 'canto fiorito' as a kind of symbol of elevated values.


Understood. Thanks, schigolch


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

By the way, you are not alone in not being able to enjoy countertenor singing. I know quite a few people, some of them veteran operagoers, that share your feelings.

One of them, after we went together (at my request) to watch a performance of Handel's _Tamerlano, _told me that countertenors were a little bit like a cucumber sandwich. Very elegant, but mostly non-edible.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Yoshi said:


> There's nothing creepy about it. The voice matching or not the performer's "looks" is the last thing I worry about. As long as I enjoy listening to the actual voice, it's fine for me. Female or male who cares...


That's my attitude as well. The first time I ever heard a countertenor was actually in a producution of Shakespeare's _Twelfth Night_, before I got interested in opera. Even then I wan't "creeped out."

My brother's a violinist, and I've been to performances of his where there were countertenor soloists. So I'm pretty used to hearing the voice type. I also saw a Handel opera with the countertenor David Walker, who has an outstandingly beautiful voice.

However, I really hope we never get to a point where we have countertenors singing, say, the Mozart "trouser roles." That wouldn't sound right, in my opinion.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> However, I really hope we never get to a point where we have countertenors singing, say, the Mozart "trouser roles." That wouldn't sound right, in my opinion.


too late! Mitridate has certainly been done with countertenors (imo it works either way); not completely sure about Lucio Silla but I'd say not yet. I've seen a (very poor) local production of Clemenza on youtube with a countertenor Annio! (he was _not_ the poor part of that production, might I add). Cherubino hasn't been done with countertenor, far as I know, and neither has Sesto. On the whole, though, I agree with you that these should stay with the ladies.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

One thing that I welcome in the countertenor revival is that the roles written for castrati can now be taken by men rather than women. This for me adds to the verisimilitude when watching a DVD. I'd rather WATCH a male Nerone in Poppea than a female any time, particularly as this is such an erotic opera (although there are some very good female interpreters of the role, Alice Coote are you listening). But for the visuals give me Jaroussky or Cencic any time; and I happen to enjoy listening to both of these fine singers.

Although it must be said Sarah Connolly knocks her male opponents out of the ring as Giulio Cesare.

What I can't cope with is tenors, basses or baritones in castrato roles. It just seems wrong, the musical balance is all up the creek to my ears.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

_Artaserse_, by Leonardo Vinci, is a nice opera premiered in Rome, in 1730. Due to the ban for women to perform on stage there, the castrati were not only singing the usual "heroic" roles, like Artaserse himself or his friend Arbace, but women's roles like their sisters Mandane and Semira.

There is a wonderful recording of this opera with some of the leading countertenors of today, like Philippe Jaroussky, Max Emanuel Cencic or Franco Fagioli. It's available in youtube, and is a feast for the lovers of the fach, as well as perhaps being a surprise for people with other tastes, listening to a singer like Franco Fagioli:


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## msegers (Oct 17, 2008)

Is there a difference between the countertenor and the "male soprano," the term used to refer to Michael Maniaci's voice? Here he is, singing what is referred to as the last operatic role written for a castrato from Meyerbeer's_ Il crociato in Egitto_:






And here is a presentation on his voice:






Wikipedia has an article on Michael Maniaci.


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## svstats (Jul 1, 2013)

Hearing David Daniels in Rinaldo was so enjoyable that I have to say no.


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## dunyana (Feb 3, 2014)

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum, and a total devotee of countertenors. I came to opera a little late in life, fell hard for sweet-lemony tenors like Juan Diego Florez, and then found the world of countertenors and was totally blown away. When they do the baroque repetoire, countertenors are the decathalon athletes of singing. Too many people think of them as singers in the hey-nonny-nonny style of Alfred Deller, or Purcell poems, but when they blast in full voice with an incredible range it is an amazing experience.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I don't care for countertenors, but then I am not all that fond of alto either. Worse yet, I saw a used CD at my local music store that was of a male soprano. Yet I do like the boy trebles.


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## Morrelli (Jan 26, 2014)

I`m with you there, dunyana, - I came to opera late too. Baroque and the countertenor, magical !


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Creeped out by countertenors? Why? Because they've been blessed with talent? Because they can do something most of us can't? We humans are great, aren't we.


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## bnolsen (Jan 30, 2014)

When I was playing gamba I was with a small consort that backed one up for a gathering. Of course I don't remember his name. I played with another gambist who was himself sang at alto range (we both also sang in a men's renaissance trio). He was pretty awed by this guy. That was 20 years ago though.

And the guy just had a higher voice, he didn't seem to be "damaged" which of course is what everyone always wonders with these guys.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

bnolsen said:


> And the guy just had a higher voice, he didn't seem to be "damaged" which of course is what everyone always wonders with these guys.


damaged how? gone off like milk?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Eerm, proof that Andreas Scholl is not "damaged". He sings both the alto and the baritone lines here:






This, by the way, was my first introduction to countertenors. It came on the radio in the car and my then 4-year-old loved it and wanted to hear it again. I got the album and then everything else Scholl had sung.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> One thing that I welcome in the countertenor revival is that the roles written for castrati can now be taken by men rather than women. This for me adds to the verisimilitude when watching a DVD. I'd rather WATCH a male Nerone in Poppea than a female any time, particularly as this is such an erotic opera (although there are some very good female interpreters of the role, Alice Coote are you listening). But for the visuals give me Jaroussky or Cencic any time; and I happen to enjoy listening to both of these fine singers.
> 
> Although it must be said Sarah Connolly knocks her male opponents out of the ring as Giulio Cesare.
> 
> What I can't cope with is tenors, basses or baritones in castrato roles. It just seems wrong, the musical balance is all up the creek to my ears.


Take me up that creek anytime.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

How about this for lovely


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

.......well, not my idea of an entertaining way to spend five minutes, but ymmd.......


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## Don Magnifico X (Jan 27, 2014)

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the people who don't like countertenors. 

Not that long ago I was watching "The Enchanted Island" with David Daniels, when my wife came into the room. Upon hearing him sing she said, "Boy, he sounds a lot like Miss Piggy!" I now can't unhear that. 

While I was never a particularly big fan of countertenors to begin with, that comment from my wife pretty much doomed any chance I had enjoying that style of singing.


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

Even though it's very hard to disappoint me when it comes to opera, I felt kind of uneasy when listening to Britten's _A Midsummer Night's Dream_. Oberon sounded like, I don't know, a shy teenager or sometimes (weird as it is) even a swarm of loud mosquitoes. Practically nothing of a king he's supposed to be. My mother thought that the choice of a countertenor for Oberon might be meant to create a fantasy aura, but still... I would have preferred a lyrical tenor for that at least, like Berendey in _The Snow Maiden_.


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## rborganist (Jan 29, 2013)

There are some times when I don't mind a countertenor. David Daniels, who currently sings at the Metropolitan Opera, manages not to sound wimpy (and he certainly doesn't look wimpy). However, with certain texts such "But Who May Abide" from "Messiah" I simply can't stand it; it does not sound right with the text. If we must be "authentic" and take it away from the bass voice, can we please have a female mezzo or contralto sing it, or--and Handel did sometimes do this--transpose it up for a soprano or tenor? For Gluck's Orfeo, however, a countertenor would be fine; that role can take the more delicate sound that most countertenors make. And by the by, I have done my share of singing alto in a pinch and can be a fairly decent countertenor myself, though my natural voice is tenor, so it isn't simple, unyielding bias on my part.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

I know this is an old thread... At the risk of losing all credibility; I'm sure I already have. NO! In fact, I find them really sexy. (It just dawned on me that feeling the need to clarify that I am a straight woman should signify that it's a JUST A BIT weird.)

When I went to see A Midsummer Night's Dream, Oberon was played by a woman. Darn!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

marinasabina said:


> I know this is an old thread... At the risk of losing all credibility; I'm sure I already have. NO! In fact, I find them really sexy. (It just dawned on me that feeling the need to clarify that I am a straight woman should signify that it's a JUST A BIT weird.)
> 
> When I went to see A Midsummer Night's Dream, Oberon was played by a woman. Darn!


Plenty of straight women fell in love with castrati, so finding countertenors sexy is relatively un-weird. Anyway some of them are pretty cute:

Christophe Dumaux









Valer Barna-Sabadus









Filippo Mineccia


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ha! Ha! I love the title of this thread!! Those "castrati" were superstars in Handel's time.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Don Magnifico X said:


> Unfortunately, I have to agree with the people who don't like countertenors.
> 
> Not that long ago I was watching "The Enchanted Island" with David Daniels, when my wife came into the room. Upon hearing him sing she said, "Boy, he sounds a lot like Miss Piggy!" I now can't unhear that.
> 
> While I was never a particularly big fan of countertenors to begin with, that comment from my wife pretty much doomed any chance I had enjoying that style of singing.


I have a similar inerasable impression with countertenors, particularly bad ones.

It always makes me think of those mostly boring Monty Python skits where Eric Idle and friends dressed up like suburban housewives and spent an interminable amount of time yapping at each other... (although the New Cooker sketch was pretty funny)..............


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

A good voice is just that, so I have no problem with countertenors whose voices I enjoy. Frankly, I'm surprised at the bias displayed by some TC members.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Bulldog said:


> Frankly, I'm surprised at the bias displayed by some TC members.


Well, as much as I might want to be perceived as unbiased in most things, I have no problem with being perceived as biased in this area. I'll admit it. I am definitely biased about countertenors (if biased can be defined as not enjoying them as performers).

I'm also biased against organ music, even though it may be the king of instruments. 

I'm equally biased against gladiatorial-type combat and Survivor-style reality shows.

Oh, there's no limit to my bias once I get started.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I'm biased against loud sopranos with wobbly voices. And even just some loud sopranos with non-wobbly voices.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I have to admit to not much liking countertenors until a friend of mine took me to a concert of David Daniels singing Vivaldi's _Stabat mater_, among other Vivaldi pieces. I was completely bowled over by the beauty of his voice, by his musicality and his gift for communication. I've seen him on each of his subsequent visits to London, singing a wide range of music, and he has always been superb. A great singer is just that, whatever range they are singing in, and David Daniels is undoubtedly a great singer.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Beyond opera, Baroque pieces or contemporary music, I also love this cd:










I'm a big time fan of French mélodie, and Mr. Jaroussky opened a whole new way of enjoying this sophisticated  art song style. Particularly this wonderful version of "A Chloris":


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Vesteralen said:


> Well, as much as I might want to be perceived as unbiased in most things, I have no problem with being perceived as biased in this area. I'll admit it. I am definitely biased about countertenors (if biased can be defined as not enjoying them as performers).
> 
> I'm also biased against organ music, even though it may be the king of instruments.


You and I should definitely not listen to music together.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Bulldog said:


> You and I should definitely not listen to music together.


Frankly, I'm surprised at the bias displayed by some TC members. 

(I'm not being serious.....I need to put these disclaimers on my posts to make sure people take them as the joke they are intended to be. That's what comes of being too lighthearted, I guess.)


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Okay, I want to seriously address this complaint about "bias". Pardon me for getting all "Sam the Eagle" on you.

Definitions of "bias" usually relate the word to, and sometimes make it equivalent to "prejudice". I suppose there may be a definition that doesn't relate to "prejudice", but I don't want to go there yet.

So, basically, what we're saying is that if a person was biased against countertenors he or she would be judging _before the fact_. In other words, one would be making up one's mind to dislike countertenors without actually trying to listen to them.

Here is where I have to protest.






(It's so hard for me to do these serious posts)

I have listened to a great number of CDs featuring countertenors and watched an even greater number of operas on DVD with countertenors. In each case, I try to keep an open mind and not prejudge. And, in fact, in one modern-dress DVD version of Monteverdi's *Poppea*, I did indeed find a countertenor performance I really enjoyed. On CD, there have been a handful of medieval music tracks with countertenors that I enjoyed.

Sometimes, realization comes to me slowly. After listening numerous times to the CDs I have of Vecchi's *Amfiparnaso * and Bachieri's *La Pazzia Senile*, I realized that the biggest reason I found the former so much more enjoyable than the latter wasn't, as I at first thought, the fault so much of the music itself, but rather that the former featured more women's voices in women's roles where the latter featured an all-male cast with the countertenors sounding very Monty Python throughout.

In other cases, the effect was more immediate.....comparing similar medieval music tracks as sung by ensembles like The Deller Consort, featuring countertenors rather than women singers with ensembles like Gothic Voices with Catherine King, I found that I immediately preferred the latter. I continue to listen to a wide range of performers of medieval music. I never let my feelings completely cut me off from trying more things, including countertenors, but just as with organ music, no amount of listening to it and no recognition of the talent of the performers themselves seems to make much difference.

So, in conclusion, I don't think it's quite fair for a person who simply likes or doesn't like something to be accused of bias when they continue to keep an open mind.

We are just not all going to like the same things.


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