# Transposing Beethoven's Fifth is just wrong



## caters (Aug 2, 2018)

It is one thing to arrange Beethoven's Fifth for a smaller ensemble, you can still get across the feel of the original orchestra by using octaves and whatnot. But when you combine that with transposition, suddenly, you aren't getting across Beethoven's intentions nearly as well. I found an arrangement that takes this to the extreme. This is the arrangement I'm talking about:






It is arranged for flutes and piano. That by itself isn't wrong. No, what's wrong to me is that the person who made this arrangement of Beethoven's fifth decided to transpose it. And to D minor of all keys. I mean, at least he kept it in flats, but he is crushing Beethoven's own intentions by transposing to D minor. Beethoven intended for this to be a dramatic movement in a powerful, angry mood. And while that comes in part from the dynamics and dissonance, a lot of it has to do with the fact that Beethoven chose the key of C minor. By transposing to D minor, the whole piece becomes sad rather than angry. Also, it sounds more like it is tending towards F major than the original C minor version sounds like it is trending towards E flat major.

For comparison here are 2 other videos of the same movement:





Beethoven-Liszt arrangement, brings the piano as close to the orchestra as possible in sonority





Original orchestral version

Both the solo piano arrangement and the original orchestral version have a lot of things in common. First off, they are both in C minor. Second, they have a similar texture, with the only real difference in texture being the thickness(orchestra is thicker in texture than solo piano for obvious reasons, even with the same exact notes, rhythms, and everything). Third, they both have that powerful, angry mood that Beethoven intended. Main difference is timbre. While the piano arrangement does have an orchestral sonority, the timbre is much more percussive in the piano arrangement, because the piano has a percussive attack, which is unlike the crescendoing attack of the orchestra(strings naturally have a crescendo to their attack because of their bowing mechanism, and they make up the vast majority of the orchestra in all musical eras, with the ratio of strings to other instruments increasing at the same time that the size of the orchestra is increasing.

Compare either one of these to the one that was transposed to D minor and you will understand what I mean when I say that the arranger crushed Beethoven's intentions. So I think that transposing something as dramatic as Beethoven's Fifth is wrong for any arranger to do. What do you think?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Yeah, let's give this arrangement a D minor … er, I mean a D minus.

Actually, I suspect the arranger was considering the range of the flutes in his/her attempt to bump this up a key. It avoids too many of the lower notes on the flute, especially that fourth instrument.

A composer may select a certain key for an orchestral work because he/she wants the particular sound of, say, the strings in that key. (Maybe there are more "open" strings.) Perhaps the brass needs govern key choice: B-flats and E-flats, for example, rather than C# and E. It's perhaps risky to transpose an orchestral work into a new key, since so many instrumental choices were involved. Perhaps moving a solo piano piece up or down does less harm, yet, to my ears, the Beethoven "Moonlight Sonata" sounds somewhat unright if transposed just a half step up or down from the C# minor of the original.

I'm not certain that this flutes/piano arrangement destroys the Beethoven original enough to voice major complaint. I suspect the flute players will enjoy it. And in my experience, not many folks seem to notice keys one way or another. Dreadful though that may be to those with surer ears. Alas ….


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Arranging for four flutes and piano isn't desecration enough? Well, instrumentalists do all kinds of things to be able to play music that otherwise is off limits. Changing key was essential in this case; without it the lower notes in the original wouldn't be available. Could have used alto or bass flutes, though. Sometimes arrangers have to do things they may not like just to make things playable.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

But this one works


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

If the instrumentalists can play it with the same amount of skill, I don't have a problem with a transposition. The notes are still the same intervals apart, so the music should still have the same effect. It is different than the way people have heard it so many times, but once you get used to the new key, it should still sound great.

There are key changes in songs all the time, and neither version of the chorus sounds wrong, just different from the one before it.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

bharbeke said:


> If the instrumentalists can play it with the same amount of skill, I don't have a problem with a transposition. The notes are still the same intervals apart, so the music should still have the same effect.


That's not entirely true. There are really complex reasons for it, dealing with acoustics, resonance and other factors, but there is difference when keys are changed. Most people wouldn't know or have the ears to hear it, but good musicians sure can. It's not even a matter of playability; it's a change in the sound of instrument. There are two versions of Jessel's Parade of the Tin Soldiers. One is in A flat, the other in A. The latter just sounds brighter. The strings resonate more. The clarinets are in A, not B flat. Lots of reasons.

I took part in an experiment once where the same short work was written in the horrible key of B major for strings, then transposed enharmonically to C flat major. It was not surprising, but they sounded different. Strings have a tough time with a lot of flats - sharps are "easier". And oddly, playing the B version on piano was almost trivial - the C flat version was harder.


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## caters (Aug 2, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> Yeah, let's give this arrangement a D minor … er, I mean a D minus.
> 
> Actually, I suspect the arranger was considering the range of the flutes in his/her attempt to bump this up a key. It avoids too many of the lower notes on the flute, especially that fourth instrument.
> 
> ...


I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that, especially because there is a piano in the flutes/piano arrangement, the arranger could have kept it in the original C minor and if need be, raised the flute parts up an octave either to be audible against the piano or to avoid out of range notes, or both.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> That's not entirely true. There are really complex reasons for it, dealing with acoustics, resonance and other factors, but there is difference when keys are changed. Most people wouldn't know or have the ears to hear it, but good musicians sure can. It's not even a matter of playability; it's a change in the sound of instrument. There are two versions of Jessel's Parade of the Tin Soldiers. One is in A flat, the other in A. The latter just sounds brighter. The strings resonate more. The clarinets are in A, not B flat. Lots of reasons.
> 
> I took part in an experiment once where the same short work was written in the horrible key of B major for strings, then transposed enharmonically to C flat major. It was not surprising, but they sounded different. Strings have a tough time with a lot of flats - sharps are "easier". And oddly, playing the B version on piano was almost trivial - the C flat version was harder.


I can agree that two different notes will have different acoustical and resonance qualities. However, unless you are making big enough changes that something that is meant to rumble the audience a bit doesn't or vice versa, I consider a transposition "close enough for government work."

In your second paragraph, the piano is going to sound the same either way, as it cannot bend pitches. One equivalent key may be easier to play mentally, but it's the same physical motions. String players may play an F sharp and G flat differently, but that is again down to their mental process and training, not because there is any difference in modern tuning practices.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Beethoven's 5th for flutes and piano? That's worse than any key change unless you don't have a problem with the music being neutered.


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## cyberstudio (Mar 31, 2019)

This discussion makes me wonder about the genetics of perfect pitch. I am of the belief that a sizable proportion of the population can remember absolute pitch subconsciously over a long time horizon just that those who we call musically gifted have the skill to exploit this and identify the pitch in a conscious manner. But I have met people who are in fact incapable of remembering pitches for any significant period of time. To them, there would have been no difference how you transpose a piece, save for timber, tuning and temperament differences of the particular instrument employed.


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## Swosh (Feb 25, 2018)

Haha great reply, I agree. This makes me want to arrange a Beethoven symphony, what a daunting task indeed... Have to give the guy credit for trying though!!


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## caters (Aug 2, 2018)

Swosh said:


> Haha great reply, I agree. This makes me want to arrange a Beethoven symphony, what a daunting task indeed... Have to give the guy credit for trying though!!


I myself am arranging a Beethoven symphony. The same one even. Just my ensemble is 1 flute, 1 piano, 2 violins, 1 viola, 1 cello, and 1 double bass, versus his flutes and piano or Liszt's piano solo. So I can get across the essence of the orchestra with no worries about transposition and whatnot. Having done multiple arrangements, I feel confident that I can do this. I have only been arranging the symphony for 2 days now and I'm already at the second theme of the recapitulation of the first movement.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven himself arranged his 2nd Symphony for piano trio. Sounds impossible, but he made it work pretty well.


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## Swosh (Feb 25, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven himself arranged his 2nd Symphony for piano trio. Sounds impossible, but he made it work pretty well.


Oh my god, I was thinking that it would make a great piano trio/quintet or string quartet a bit ago! I believe almost any classical piece can be arranged however one likes. I LOVE arranging so much. What a great find, I will study this thank you.


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## Swosh (Feb 25, 2018)

caters said:


> I myself am arranging a Beethoven symphony. The same one even. Just my ensemble is 1 flute, 1 piano, 2 violins, 1 viola, 1 cello, and 1 double bass, versus his flutes and piano or Liszt's piano solo. So I can get across the essence of the orchestra with no worries about transposition and whatnot. Having done multiple arrangements, I feel confident that I can do this. I have only been arranging the symphony for 2 days now and I'm already at the second theme of the recapitulation of the first movement.


I think I'm far off from arranging a Beethoven symphony, sadly.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

bharbeke said:


> In your second paragraph, the piano is going to sound the same either way, as it cannot bend pitches. One equivalent key may be easier to play mentally, but it's the same physical motions. String players may play an F sharp and G flat differently, but that is again down to their mental process and training, not because there is any difference in modern tuning practices.


Ah, but good string players (and wind players, too) do know there's a difference between F sharp and G flat. Pianos play in equal temperament out of necessity. But no piano plays perfectly "in tune" - and that's a huge subject. Good orchestras have a sense of great tuning - the chords just bloom and are alive - they don't play like a piano. On a piano, the B flat in a G minor chord is the same pitch as the B flat in an E flat chord. But listen to a fine orchestra play and those B flats are not the same - a slight difference is what's needed to bring the G minor chord in tune. On-the-spot, instant tuning changes are part of what makes great orchestras like Cleveland, Chicago, Boston, Berlin and such sound so great. And why amateur and school groups sound so grainy, and dull - they can't, or won't - tune properly. One of the things that drives me absolutely crazy are younger players who sit there with a stupid tuner attached to their instrument and if the tuner says they are on pitch, they won't bend for anything - it's the rest of us who are all wrong. So annoying.


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