# Mozart Wind Quintet K452



## Olias

Mozart wrote to his father after its premiere that this piece was "his best work". As a hornist I love this piece and the very idea of a quintet with this instrumentation (oboe, clarinet, horn, bassoon, piano). There are so many timbre combinations that can work.

Anyone have any experience or interest in this piece?


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## Sebastien Melmoth

K.452--a favourite, along with Beethoven's Op. 16 for the same ensemble.

Check Caplet's and Magnard's Piano Wind Quintets:
http://www.amazon.com/Caplet-Magnar...=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1300879955&sr=1-6

And Dubois:
http://www.amazon.com/Théodore-Dubo...r_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1300880025&sr=1-10


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## Delicious Manager

As the former manager of one of the UK's leading wind quintets, I was privileged to be part of a concert in which they collaborated with the great Angela Hewitt in performances of the Mozart Quintet K 452, the Poulenc Sextet for piano and wind quintet and the lovely Sextet by Ludwig Thuille.

Gorgeous stuff!


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## Webernite

I have more affection for Beethoven's Wind Quintet Op. 16, but Mozart's is usually considered to be the greater work.


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## Toccata

Olias said:


> Mozart wrote to his father after its premiere that this piece was "his best work". As a hornist I love this piece and the very idea of a quintet with this instrumentation (oboe, clarinet, horn, bassoon, piano). There are so many timbre combinations that can work.
> 
> Anyone have any experience or interest in this piece?


It must be borne in mind that Mozart wrote this famous reference to "his best work" in a letter to his father a couple of weeks after he composed the work in March 1784. Clearly, during the seven subsequent years in which he composed he went on to produce many far better works than K 452.

Whether or not K 452 was Mozart's best work up to the time he composed it is a matter of opinion. I can think of two earlier chamber works which I slightly prefer, one being the Gran Partita K 361, and another the Sinfonia Concertante for Violin & Viola K 364.

K 452 is certainly a very fine work and I find it more enjoyable than Beethoven's Op 16. I have seen at least a couple of amusing discussions on this topic elsewhere. My preferred version of K 452 is by Brendel, Holliger, Brunner et al.


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## Olias

Toccata said:


> Clearly, during the seven subsequent years in which he composed he went on to produce many far better works than K 452.


Well of course. I simply contend that as Mozart had such a high opinion of the work at the time, it deserves some analysis and attention.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Lovely work. I have a version of it on CD played by The Academy of Anicent Music on period instruments, and am amazed how these instruments conveyed the Classical Mozartian idiom so elegantly.


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## Olias

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Lovely work. I have a version of it on CD played by The Academy of Anicent Music on period instruments, and am amazed how these instruments conveyed the Classical Mozartian idiom so elegantly.


Ooooooooo, is that recording on ArkivMusic or Amazon?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

This is the recording. It comes with two pieces by Beethoven: op.16 - his piano quintet scored for identical instruments as Mozart's, and op.17 - his sonata for horn and piano. Robert Levin on fortepiano throughout.


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## Olias

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> This is the recording. It comes with two pieces by Beethoven: op.16 - his piano quintet scored for identical instruments as Mozart's, and op.17 - his sonata for horn and piano. Robert Levin on fortepiano throughout.


Thanks. Just ordered it. :tiphat:


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## Kieran

Toccata said:


> It must be borne in mind that Mozart wrote this famous reference to "his best work" in a letter to his father a couple of weeks after he composed the work in March 1784. Clearly, during the seven subsequent years in which he composed he went on to produce many far better works than K 452.
> 
> Whether or not K 452 was Mozart's best work up to the time he composed it is a matter of opinion. I can think of two earlier chamber works which I slightly prefer, one being the Gran Partita K 361, and another the Sinfonia Concertante for Violin & Viola K 364.


I agree - I think the 9th piano concerto and Idomeneo, for starts, would be greater, but K452 is such an inspired grouping of instruments and it was the "conversion-piece" for me listening to Mozart. It's so rich in ideas, it almost becomes absurd the way he tosses tunes about as if he needs to sell them fast. It's a distinctive quality of his most inspired works, of which this is surely one...


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## Toccata

Kieran said:


> I agree - I think the 9th piano concerto and Idomeneo, for starts, would be greater, but K452 is such an inspired grouping of instruments and it was the "conversion-piece" for me listening to Mozart. It's so rich in ideas, it almost becomes absurd the way he tosses tunes about as if he needs to sell them fast. It's a distinctive quality of his most inspired works, of which this is surely one...


I agree with your additional works. I was trying, though, to keep within the realm of chamber music. I stll reckon that K 361, Gran Partita, was Mozart's finest work before he set about producing his thematic catalogue in 1784. This is not to detract from K 452, which is an epic work written at the start of his thematic catalogue. Maybe I'm being slightly cynical but I wouldn't mind betting that some people who reckon that they don't like Mozart have never heard any of these these works or, if they have, only very fleetingly.

I've just had a quick reckon up on the average age of Mozart when he composed his 10 most prominent works, based on a list I spotted on the DDD forum. It works out that he was around 32. Interestingly, for Beethoven his average age was about 43 for the top 10 works listed. For Schubert his average age at the time of composing his top 10 works was only 27. By age 27 Beethoven had only got up to Opus 11, and there was nothing all that startling among that little collection. By age 27 Mozart had got up to about K 446, with with most of the best yet to come. I realise that I'm playing around with averages and absolutes here, which is not entirely fair, but it again illustrates the importance of age differences at their dates of death.


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## Kieran

> I've just had a quick reckon up on the average age of Mozart when he composed his 10 most prominent works, based on a list I spotted on the DDD forum. It works out that he was around 32.


In fairness, Mozart might have composed another three Idomeneos (or even a Figaro or two) had he been asked to, before his 30's. The problem was the right commissions, not an inability to compose to his highest levels.

Schubert's early demise is to be lamented, but I don't think he had a _Don Giovanni_ or _Figaro_ in his satchel (nor did Beethoven), though his genius is very similar to Mozart's, but perhaps lacking the mercurial dramatists instinct of the miracle from Salzburg...


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## Toccata

Kieran said:


> In fairness, Mozart might have composed another three Idomeneos (or even a Figaro or two) had he been asked to, before his 30's. The problem was the right commissions, not an inability to compose to his highest levels.
> 
> Schubert's early demise is to be lamented, but I don't think he had a _Don Giovanni_ or _Figaro_ in his satchel (nor did Beethoven), though his genius is very similar to Mozart's, but perhaps lacking the mercurial dramatists instinct of the miracle from Salzburg...


You are quite right that opera is a complex genre, and this is where Mozart made his most illustrious achievements. Having written Le Nozze and DG by the age of 31, this was indeed was an incredible feat.

For Schubert, on the other hand, opera was his only true weakness in terms of commercial success, but this was most proably primarily due to his bad luck with choice of libretti, as his ability to write choral operatic pieces shouldn't be under-estimated. Some of my favourite arias, duets and choral music are from Schubert's Fierrabras and Alfonso und Estrella. Try for example the aria _Schon wenn es beggint zu tagen"_ from Alfonso & Estrella.

Aside from his efforts in opera and the many hundreds of lieder and 4 song cycles, Schubert also wrote a good deal of non-operatic choral works for male, female, and mixed voices. His body of sacred (vocal) works is also very impressive. Altogether, Schubert's body of choral works is just as impressive (in my book more impressive) than Mozart's. Apart from DG and Le Nozze, most of the best of Mozart didn't come until later. I accept the odd exception, such as the _Gran Partita, K 361_ and perhaps a few others. As you say, this was partly because Mozart didn't get the commissions for operatic works at an eralier time, and that if he had he would probably have scored highly, but the same can be said for Schubert, who had a lot of bad luck and incurred much wasted effort in the theatrical area generally.

Beethoven's achievements by the age of 31 were far more limited, having reached only about Opus 30 by that time in his much longer career. I'm not denying that there were some very good pieces among these (e.g. Moonlight piano sonata, and the Spring violin sonata) but there was hardly anything path breaking, with the Eroica having to await a further three years or so. His choral achievements were generally long delayed. With the exception of the song _Adelaide_ and _Ah Perfido_, written in 1795/96 respectively (age 25/26), there wasn't much else of any importance until _An die ferne Geliebte_ in 1816. He struggled with Leonora for ages, and didn't appear until he was 35. The _Choral Fantasy_ was written when he was 38, and _Missa Solemnis_ didn't appear until he was well over 50, and of course the _Ninth_ didn't appear until he was about 54.

Obviously, we can only judge composers on their entire output, but for me Schubert's body of chamber music, piano solo/duets, symphonies, lieder and other choral music are far more significant that Mozart's DG and Le Nozze, the two big works you referred to as being in Mozart's "satchel" by age 31. Even taking account of all of Mozart's later works, I find it difficult to say that Mozart's talents were overall superior to Schubert's. They were both top drawer musical geniuses, but with different interests and talents.


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## Kieran

Hi Toccata,

I think you and I would agree totally on Beethoven. As for Schubert, you have the advantage of great knowledge and familiarity with his works, and I gladly bow to this superior knowledge. I would grudgingly accept a co-habitee in the rarefied air that Mozart alone breathes, and if it was anyone, Schubert alone tugs my heartstrings, because of his originality and yet his concealment, in the sense of being under-appreciated in his time.

I purchased his 8th and 9th symphonies recently, along with the Trout quintet. I was looking for a decently priced, big-name rendition of his final sonatas, but was unsuccessful: I think I bought well anyhow.

As for opera, I don't think anyone has composed works as great as Mozart's seven mature operas (taken as a group), and Figaro, DG, CFT and the Magic Flute, (taken individually). And I believe he could have composed more of these, much earlier, had he gotten commissions. I know you're right when you say Schubert was unlucky in not getting good librettos, but here destiny dealt the hand where it would best succeed, in my opinion. It's a fragile string to hang a hat on, but these men were marked by history in different ways, as you say, "both top drawer musical geniuses, but with different interests and talents." The frustrating part for people such as you and I, who are spoilt by the riches on offer, is that both of them died far too young...


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## Guest

_Toccata_ - you've GOT to be joking!! "Beethoven's achievements by the age of 31 were far more limited"!! He was already losing his hearing by then. Listen to some of Beethoven's piano sonatas. How anyone could call them 'limited' beggars the imagination. Try piano sonata No. 4 in E Flat - absolutely fabulous, inventive and sublime - and *a complete world away from Mozart*! Listen to the 2nd movement of No. 4. Just for starters, it is formally dynamic.

I agree Schubert's talents were the equal of Mozart, though he may have been superior melodically. I don't think his symphonies superior to WAM, however, but those Lieder. Almighty God, they have no equal!! Poignant, melancholy, plangent, rhythmically dynamic, harmonically inventive - you name it!! And yet this composer plodded on with absolutely little or no recognition. I love Mozart, but Beethoven and Bach are the equal as the greatest musical minds ever. I agree with the late Douglas Adams ("Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy") that JS Bach was one of the greatest minds in human history. His music easily reveals that. Same with Beethoven - he goes places nobody has before or since. Transcendent, imaginative to the max, singular, challenging, dynamic, tender, passionate, eloquent, sombre, profound, complex, powerful. Plenty more where that came from! Give thanks to the diety of choice that he ever existed.


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## Guest

Apropos the previous blog on Beethoven's Sonata No. 4. Listen in particular to the final movement of this amazing Sonata!! Wow!


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## Kieran

In fairness, Toccata was right to say that had Ludwig died aged 31 or 35, he wouldn't be in the equation with Schubert or Wolfgang...


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## Guest

Hypothetical!!

Barenboim playing the 4th Movement, Rondo. Apart from voicing problems with the piano, it's wonderful:


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## Kieran

Well no, it's not hypothetical. If we look at what they'd composed at these ages, we'd have to conclude that Beethoven's output - though great! - was less significant.

Hypothetical would be if we said that had Mozart lived as long as Beethoven, then he'd have dwarfed Ludwig's achievements even more. We can guess this, but can't be sure. Perhaps Mozart would have lost interest, or he'd have taught Beethoven how to compose operas, or anything else could have happened. This would be all hypothetical...


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## Vaneyes

The mystery of K. 452.

http://www.henle.de/blog/en/2013/09...closing-bars-in-mozart’s-wind-quintet-kv-452/


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## Blake

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> _Toccata_ - you've GOT to be joking!! "Beethoven's achievements by the age of 31 were far more limited"!! He was already losing his hearing by then. Listen to some of Beethoven's piano sonatas. How anyone could call them 'limited' beggars the imagination. Try piano sonata No. 4 in E Flat - absolutely fabulous, inventive and sublime - and *a complete world away from Mozart*! Listen to the 2nd movement of No. 4. Just for starters, it is formally dynamic.
> 
> I agree Schubert's talents were the equal of Mozart, though he may have been superior melodically. I don't think his symphonies superior to WAM, however, but those Lieder. Almighty God, they have no equal!! Poignant, melancholy, plangent, rhythmically dynamic, harmonically inventive - you name it!! And yet this composer plodded on with absolutely little or no recognition. I love Mozart, but Beethoven and Bach are the equal as the greatest musical minds ever. I agree with the late Douglas Adams ("Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy") that JS Bach was one of the greatest minds in human history. His music easily reveals that. Same with Beethoven - he goes places nobody has before or since. Transcendent, imaginative to the max, singular, challenging, dynamic, tender, passionate, eloquent, sombre, profound, complex, powerful. Plenty more where that came from! Give thanks to the diety of choice that he ever existed.


No way anyone is above Mozart. Beethoven is an equal, though. But this is all a load of opinions.


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## PetrB

Toccata said:


> It must be borne in mind that Mozart wrote this famous reference to "his best work" in a letter to his father a couple of weeks after he composed the work in March 1784.


That is a misquote, it is translated as "my best work _*yet.*_" 
misunderstanding cleared up, any problems solved


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## PetrB

Olias said:


> Well of course. I simply contend that as Mozart had such a high opinion of the work at the time, it deserves some analysis and attention.


I think there is very little doubt that it is one of Mozart's finer pieces, and without doubt one of the great and outstanding works in the literature for that ensemble.


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## KenOC

PetrB said:


> I think there is very little doubt that it is one of Mozart's finer pieces, and without doubt one of the great and outstanding works in the literature for that ensemble.


Beethoven certainly though so and had it very much in mind when he wrote his Op. 16 in similar mood, key, and ensemble. In this particular case, Beethoven came in second -- but not by a whole lot. Can't remember who, but somebody later wrote, "It will be a hundred years before we're again blessed by such a pair of works." (from memory)


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## PetrB

KenOC said:


> Beethoven certainly though so and had it very much in mind when he wrote his Op. 16 in similar mood, key, and ensemble. In this particular case, Beethoven came in second -- but not by a whole lot. Can't remember who, but somebody later wrote, "It will be a hundred years before we're again blessed by such a pair of works." (from memory)


After the performance of a Mozart work (I'm sorry, I know not which piece), Beethoven, in attendance at that concert with a friend, commented to the friend, "Will we hear such perfection ever again?" Luigi had more than a little admiration for Mozart's music.


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## Skilmarilion

PetrB said:


> After the performance of a Mozart work (I'm sorry, I know not which piece), Beethoven, in attendance at that concert with a friend, commented to the friend, "Will we hear such perfection ever again?" Luigi had more than a little admiration for Mozart's music.


If I am not mistaken, the work was the 24th piano concerto, and the friend was Ferdinand Ries.


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## ScipioAfricanus

the piano quintet by Mozart is pure inspiration. I've never heard anything like it from composers who composed for the specific form afterwards. Mozart had an insightful understanding of the instruments and knew how to combine them perfectly. Not every melody works with the wind instruments, and not every melody that works with the wind instruments works with every wind instrument. Mozart knew this, and this is why K452 is great.
Ironically Mozart's foray into the key of E flat is always special. Symphony 39, Piano Concerto 22 and the Sinfonia Concertante.


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## PetrB

ScipioAfricanus said:


> the piano quintet by Mozart is pure inspiration. I've never heard anything like it from composers who composed for the specific form afterwards. Mozart had an insightful understanding of the instruments and knew how to combine them perfectly. Not every melody works with the wind instruments, and not every melody that works with the wind instruments works with every wind instrument. Mozart knew this, and this is why K452 is great.
> Ironically Mozart's foray into the key of E flat is always special. Symphony 39, Piano Concerto 22 and the Sinfonia Concertante.


(Of course, the choice of Eb for this work _had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact it was a very friendly key for the wind instruments of the time, i.e readier and more surely available note delivery with less inherent intonation problems_


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## DavidA

I do think this age comparison of composers is a bit pointless. What matters is what they left. Schubert's early death was indeed a tragedy, as was Mozart's at 35.
The wind quintet is utterly sublime. I have a version with Perahia and distinguished soloists - I just purchased it for 49p - and another much earlier one where the players include Dennis Brain.


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## hpowders

Anytime Mozart wrote for either the female voice or the orchestral winds, the piece was terrific.

Nobody did these things better than Mozart, especially for the orchestral clarinet and soprano voice.


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## vincula

Webernite said:


> I have more affection for Beethoven's Wind Quintet Op. 16, but Mozart's is usually considered to be the greater work.


Here's my way of enjoying both at once 









Regards,

Vincula


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## Enthusiast

^ I think Beethoven was conscious of following Mozart's model.


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## jegreenwood

Enthusiast said:


> ^ I think Beethoven was conscious of following Mozart's model.


Always seemed to me that Ludwig was exploring winds at this early point in his career:

Opus 11 Clarinet Trio
Opus 16 Piano and Wind Quintet
Opus 17 Horn Sonata
Opus 20 Septet

I have the Mozart and Beethoven Quintets by Perahia et al.


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## Brahmsian Colors

My favorite version of the Mozart K 452 Wind Quintet with members of the Vienna Octet and Walter Panhoffer, piano (vinyl lp)
Played with that traditional Viennease warmth.


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## Enthusiast

jegreenwood said:


> Always seemed to me that Ludwig was exploring winds at this early point in his career:
> 
> Opus 11 Clarinet Trio
> Opus 16 Piano and Wind Quintet
> Opus 17 Horn Sonata
> Opus 20 Septet
> 
> I have the Mozart and Beethoven Quintets by Perahia et al.


Still, it is quite an unusual group (piano with horn, bassoon, oboe and clarinet) and Beethoven uses the same key of E flat as Mozart.


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## jegreenwood

Enthusiast said:


> Still, it is quite an unusual group (piano with horn, bassoon, oboe and clarinet) and Beethoven uses the same key of E flat as Mozart.


Without reading a single page of a Beethoven biography  I figured that Beethoven was seeing if he could do as well with winds as Mozart did. They both wrote clarinet trios as well, although Mozart included a viola and Beethoven included a cello. And the septet (also adapted for clarinet trio - Op. 38), brings to mind Mozart's wind serenades.


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## Heck148

K. 452 is a wonderful work that I've performed many, many times....always a joy to play...Mozart's use of the woodwinds with piano is truly masterful....wonderful "dialogues", passing around the themes, lovely combinations....my favorite version is the NY WW 5tet members with Frank Glazer, piano....Glazer was a great pianist, who specialized in chamber music. My group got to perform it with him when I was still in Rochester, NY. definitely a highlight....
We often coupled the Mozart 5tet with the Beethoven 5tet same combo, makes a fine, popular program...some groups present the program in chronological order - Mozart, then Beethoven....but we programmed by the composer's maturity when work was written IOW- the youthful Beethoven work goes first, the mature Mozart concludes. Very effective.

There are some terrific combinations for programming piano/woodwind repertoire. 
The Mozart and Beethoven use 4 winds plus piano....there are 2 excellent works for Sextet- piano/ww5tet....the Poulenc Sextuor, the Gordon Jacob Sextet- very fine work....the Thuille is also worth performing, tho, imo, not as good as the Poilenc or Jacob....we've mixed these works in concert many, many times to great audience reception.


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## PeterF

The Quintet for Piano and Winds by Beethoven is enjoyable, but the one by Mozart is great,

My favorite version is by Brendel. I also like the version by Lupu.
Both versions have the Beethoven included as well.


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## Olias

I love hearing K452 on period instruments. It really makes a difference, especially in chamber music for wind players.


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