# What Wagner Thought of Schumann's Symphonies



## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

*"...in a letter to Hans von Bulow, the composer writes: ''I took another close look at Schumann's symphonies with the honest hope of finding them beautiful. . . . It is not worth troubling myself with them: they are simply another kind of jargon which has the appearance of being profound but which, in my own opinion, is the same sort of empty nonsense as Hegel's philosophic rubbish, which is always at its most trivial where it seems most profound.''"*

*source:* http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/15/books/the-cruel-face-of-genius.html?pagewanted=all


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Translation: "Damn it, something else I can't do."


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I don't care for Schumann's music and believe him to have been quite full of himself, but I would never say his music is "empty nonsense". His music simply doesn't move me. Brahms would run rings around him in the composing biz.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

where's the poll?

(Just kidding).

Anyway, from what I remember reading of Schumann's writings, he wasn't that much less critical or vitriolic.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I'm not sure how much importance can be attributed to isolated comments of one composer about another composer's work(s) at one point in time. These men didn't have the benefit of recordings so they would be basing their opinions on only a very few exposures which implies that maybe viewpoints would change over time. Likewise, personal differences and jealousies can be at play and these things can change over time.

The music of Wagner and Schumann couldn't be more different. Schumann wasn't known for opera & Wagner wasn't known for his piano works, concertos and symphonies. Wagner probably wouldn't be the best judge of Schumann's symphonies to begin with. Personally, Schumann's 2nd is one of the great symphonies (my favorite is Leonard Bernstein's).


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Schumann certainly had his own opinions. He wrote of Haydn, "...an old family friend whom one receives gladly and respectfully but who has nothing new to tell us."


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

DaveM said:


> These men didn't have the benefit of recordings so they would be basing their opinions on only a very few exposures


Or on score reading - which of course they could do whenever - which is what Wagner is talking about.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Klassic said:


> *"...in a letter to Hans von Bulow, the composer writes: ''I took another close look at Schumann's symphonies with the honest hope of finding them beautiful. . . . It is not worth troubling myself with them: they are simply another kind of jargon which has the appearance of being profound but which, in my own opinion, is the same sort of empty nonsense as Hegel's philosophic rubbish, which is always at its most trivial where it seems most profound.''"*
> 
> *source:* http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/15/books/the-cruel-face-of-genius.html?pagewanted=all


Thanks for posting the link.

The entire review, written by conductor Erich Leinsdorf, is very interesting and well-written.

I don't imagine I would want to read all 1,030 pages of the book, but I may track a copy down to leaf through at some point.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Not much we can read into these sorts of remarks by composers on other composers. They're fun to read, though!

The classic book on the subject:

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...cal+invective&rh=n:283155,k:musical+invective


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

I'm with Wagner, Schumann is fourth rate at best. Now _Schuman_ is a different story.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

I feel you can put Schumann in the first-rate category based off his solo piano music alone.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I like Schumann very much but I think the symphonies aren't where he's strongest. However, I take great offense at my idol taking a jab at Hegel. One has to remember that A) there was a phase when he was very much into Hegel and praised him highly, and B) he remained an admirer of Feuerbach until the end, and Feuerbach, for all his rebellion against Hegel, remains _profoundly_ Hegelian.

I'm sure that if you would have taken every instance where Hegel writes "reason" and replaced it with "love", Wagner would have agreed with him one hundred per cent. So the differences are there, but there's also great similarity.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

It always saddens me a little bit when a composer I like dislike music I like.
Schumann´s symphonies are among the most popular works in classical music and I am happy for that so Wagner´s or other persons negative remarks have made little harm.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> I don't care for Schumann's music and *believe him to have been quite full of himself,* but I would never say his music is "empty nonsense". His music simply doesn't move me. Brahms would run rings around him in the composing biz.


I think Schumann probably had the variest featherweight ego beside the ultra-monster ego that was Wagner.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Wagner was probably jealous because someone was doing something he had not done - write symphonies people wanted to hear.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Klassic said:


> *"...in a letter to Hans von Bulow, the composer writes: ''I took another close look at Schumann's symphonies with the honest hope of finding them beautiful. . . . It is not worth troubling myself with them: they are simply another kind of jargon which has the appearance of being profound but which, in my own opinion, is the same sort of empty nonsense as Hegel's philosophic rubbish, which is always at its most trivial where it seems most profound.''"*
> 
> *source:* http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/15/books/the-cruel-face-of-genius.html?pagewanted=all


The symphony as a genre was an old genre by then and well before that. Even Mozart never really liked writing symphonies. Like Mozart, Wagner's passion was in opera.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> I'm with Wagner, Schumann is fourth rate at best. Now _Schuman_ is a different story.


I'm not familiar with Schumann so I don't know if I agree on that, but thanks for the recommendation! I fell in love with Schuman's 5th symphony within the first few seconds.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I'm not familiar with Schumann so I don't know if I agree on that, but thanks for the recommendation! I fell in love with Schuman's 5th symphony within the first few seconds.


Look it's just to my taste, Schumann is one of the only popular composers I don't enjoy.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Wagner and Schumann knew each other slightly, having met around 1835. Schumann was ambivalent about Wagner's music, and based on a reading of the score he said of _Tannhauser_ "This Wagner cannot write two good bars together." On seeing a production of it later he admitted that it struck him somewhat more favorably.

It's irresistible to remember what Clara Schumann (Robert having long since died) said when she saw _Tristan und Isolde:_ "The most disgusting thing I have ever seen in my entire life."


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