# Is There Such A Thing As A "Definitive" Version of the Great Classical Pieces?



## PeteHam (Jun 20, 2011)

*Is There Such A Thing As A "Definitive" Version of the Great Classical Pieces?*

Hi Talk Classical,

I'm new to classical music, and want to know one thing.

So, you have all the great pieces of music by the likes of Mozart, Beethoven etc, which have all been recorded by many different orchestras at various times.

What I would like to know is, are there any particular versions that are widely regarded as 'the best' or most professional, and true to the original (i.e. not an 'interpretation'). If I search for a song I like on YouTube, I don't know whether it's by the London Symphony Orchestra or Harold's Returned Servicemen Orchestra.:lol:

In particular, I would like to know if there is one version of Vivaldi's Four Seasons that stands above the rest, or could be called 'definitive' (preferably on YouTube or downloadable somewhere).

Thanks for any assistance.:tiphat:

Cliffs notes:

1) Are there definitive versions of the great classical pieces. If so, what versions?
2) Is there a definitive version of Vivaldi's 'Four Seasons'.


----------



## Guest (Jun 20, 2011)

Simple answer is no.

There are certain recordings that will garner more recommendations than others, but there are no "definitive" recordings. About the best you can hope for is what sounds good to you. That is all that matters. For something like the Four Seasons, by Vivaldi, there are issues like whether or not you care for HIP recordings, where the performers use instruments that would have been contemporary to Vivaldi, and played in as close to the manner as we can judge that they would have been, or if you prefer a more modern interpretation, using modern instruments, etc.

As to other great classical pieces, I'm afraid you are going to have to ask for recommendations of specific pieces. "Great" classical pieces is very subjective - ask 10 different people and you will get 10 different lists. Some love Beethoven. Some think him over played. Some prefer 20th century works, some baroque. There are certainly many works that will turn up in multiple lists of great works, but you are asking too open-ended a question. Look around in various forums here, and you will find various top 100 lists - symphonies, string quartets, operas, etc. Start from there. Go listen to them on youtube - at this point it won't matter as much who plays them. If you like it, ask around for recommendations for good recordings. In general, there is no single "best" recording. 

My personal input - for Four Seasons, get the recording by Giuliano Carmignola with Andrea Marcon and the Venice Baroque Orchestra - I believe it is on Sony, but I could be wrong. Very good recording.


----------



## PeteHam (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks a lot, good answer.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Just as an addendum thought, as far as "definitive" recordings, there are some which consistently come up on people's lists. One that I can think of is Carlos Kleiber's recording of Beethoven's Symphonies 5 and 7. What that means to me is, that's the one you should hear first. Then when you know how it _should_ sound, you can appreciate other recordings which explore how it_ can_ sound.

DrMike mentioned Carmignola's Four Seasons, which is one of those instances. After hearing that, Fabio Biondi's recording would perk up your ears, because he does unusual things which you'll appreciate more after you know how it "should" sound. (Like the hunting scene: it sounds like the hunters are coming from a distance and getting louder as they approach, and the gunshots actually sound like shots.)


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

The adulation awarded to the Kleiber recording is even more hard-earned taking into account the crowded field for those works but I've honestly heard none better nor are the plaudits more deserving than here - it really is a legendary release.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Recordings of classical music are a wonderful thing, but the problem with them is that many listeners,(includinging yours truly) often get imprinted on the first recording of any given work they hear and get to know that work, with and when they hear other recordngs, the others seem not quite :"right", particularly in terms of tempi, which may seem either too slow or to fast after the one you get accustomed to.
Yes, there's no such thing as a "definitive" performance. This is even true when composers conduct or play a work of theirs on different occaisions. Their conception changes , and they do things differently; different tempo,different use of rubato, etc.
But in my more than 40 years of listening ever since I became a classical music freak as a teenager, I've learned to become tolerant of different approaches . 
You can "wean" yourself off a particular recording you've grown attached to by avoiding it for some time and getting accustomed to other ones. 
Here's one example from my own experience. As a teenager, I got accustomed to Klemperer's EMI recording of the Bruckner 5th symphony with the New Philharmonia ,which later reverted back to the titile Philharmonia ,before the CD era.. This is a very broad and deliberate approach , and lasts nearly 80 minutes. Then , the Haitink/Concertgebouw
Philips recording which I heard seemed to fast to me , but with repeatd hearings, I came to appreciate its virtues. Then I heard the Karajan/BPO DG recording, and this seemed absolutely right to me, somewhere between the lemperer and Haitink recordings .
Years later, I bought the live Furtwangler/BPO recording from the 1940s on CD.
Now I have enromous admiration for Furtwangler's conducting, and he was unquestionably one of the greatest conductors of all time. But this performance was the fastest I have ever heard, and seemed rushed at times. So much for the myth
that Furtwangler was a "slow" conductor. 
Wouldn't it be boring if every performance of a masterpiece were identical ?


----------



## Guest (Jun 20, 2011)

I'll throw in some more recommendations.

Beethoven's 9th symphony - either the 1962 Karajan recording on DG, or if you don't need it in stereo, the older EMI recording by Furtwangler. Again, not the end all, be all, but ones that get high recommendations.

Bach Goldberg Variations - the one you will hear the most about is Glenn Gould's recording, I prefer his recording from the 80's. It isn't my personal favorite, but it, I believe, is the most recommended recording.

Right now I am having a hard time thinking of other "definitive" recordings. Ones that are so iconic that you could make an argument for them having a claim to definitive. There are certain works that seem to be "owned" by certain performers. I would argue, for example, that Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau holds that position for many of Schubert's Lieder.


----------



## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

The simple answer is _No, unless it's Prokofiev's 5th piano concerto as played by Sviatoslav Richter._ :lol:


----------



## Guest (Jun 20, 2011)

I think I'm trying to approach this from the perspective of what Manxfeeder said, in the sense that there are any number of good/great recordings out there, but a few that rise to the "must hear" level. Not necessarily to the exclusion of all else, but simply truly significant in their own right. And as I think of some of the "great" pieces out there, I am finding it harder and harder to think of that one iconic recording - like Gould's Goldberg Variations, or Kleiber's Beethoven 5th.

Is there an iconic recording of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos? Or Beethoven's piano sonatas? What about Dvorak's 9th Symphony? Or Tchaikovsky's 6th?

As I type this out, a few more spring to mind.

Du Pre's recording of Elgar's Cello Concerto with Barbirolli is perhaps one of those that overshadows most other recordings. Is part of that due to the early death of du Pre? No doubt that probably has some role, but still it is a great recording in its own right.

Or what about Bruno Walter's recording of Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde with Kathleen Ferrier? Again, propelled perhaps due to the relatively close proximity to Ferrier's death not long after the performance?


----------



## jaimsilva (Jun 1, 2011)

Hopefully NOT!

A so called "definitive" version would stop us from listening new readings of the works. Each version is an approch to the "definitive" one, never reached! 

Gott sei dank!


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

DrMike said:


> Is there an iconic recording of Beethoven's piano sonatas?


To use a term "iconic" instead of "definitive" can broaden the definition to Schnabel's Beethoven recordings or Casals' recording of Bach's Cello Suites - not necessarily the greatest recordings but those which presented this music to the world in a new light. And though I have only personally heard one of their recordings, I know the Busch Quartet's recordings of Beethoven's string quartets have iconic status.

I think a case can be made in the definitive category for the Hollywood String Quartet's recording of Schoenberg's Verklarte Nacht. The composer seemed to think so as they played it for him in the blazing heat of his Brentwood home before offering them scotch and donuts.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

What does "definitive" mean when it comes to recorded versions? The one that most people, critics, radio stations, written words all approve of and own copies of? Most if not all of us tend to have favourite artist(s) and tend to stick with their interpretations of particular pieces anyway, and expand/explore outwards from there.


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

PeteHam said:


> Hi Talk Classical,
> 
> I'm new to classical music, and want to know one thing.
> 
> ...


YUP! 

Sibelius' Violin Concerto - Ida Haendel 1975
Beethoven's Violin Concerto - Perlman 1980
Wagner's Ring - Solti 1958 to 1965
Elgar's Cello Concerto - Jacqueline du Pre 1965


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Wagner's Ring - Solti 1958 to 1965

That one is incredibly debatable. Solti's singers were among the finest... but no longer in their prime. Some would argue in favor of Clemens Krauss, Hans Knappertsbusch, Wilhelm Furtwangler or Joseph Keilberth among the older recordings... and Herbert von Karajan or Karl Bohm among more modern recordings. Solti's set has the reputation as an epic undertaking as the first modern studio recording... but in no way is it the clear first choice.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

According to a lecture I've just heard, Beethoven himself played his piano pieces differently from one day to the next, depending on how he felt and how he percieved the audience's response. That pretty much rules out definitve versions of anything in perpetuity for me.

That's the cool thing about music. Probably no one said to van Gogh, "would you paint Starry Night for us again?"


----------



## Whipsnade (Mar 17, 2011)

Weston said:


> That's the cool thing about music. Probably no one said to van Gogh, "would you paint Starry Night for us again?"


...but make this one during the day because I like sunshine. Starry, Starry Day.


----------



## haydnfan (Apr 13, 2011)

I think I actually find myself disagreeing with every recommendation on this thread. Instead of being definitive, they are mediocre and some of them are good but not representative of the whole (for performances of a specific work). These responses are just further proof that there is no definitive recording for any work. PERIOD.


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Wagner's Ring - Solti 1958 to 1965
> 
> That one is incredibly debatable. Solti's singers were among the finest... but no longer in their prime. Some would argue in favor of Clemens Krauss, Hans Knappertsbusch, Wilhelm Furtwangler or Joseph Keilberth among the older recordings... and Herbert von Karajan or Karl Bohm among more modern recordings. Solti's set has the reputation as an epic undertaking as the first modern studio recording... but in no way is it the clear first choice.


Well it's outsold the others by several orders of magnitude and has had the most praise heaped on it by important people, its certainly has more _definitiviness_ than the others. Whether it is our personal inclination (@haydnfan) is irrelevant.


----------



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I don't know if there's such a thing as a "definitive" recording of *Don Giovanni* - or indeed, even a definitive version of the score (Prague? Vienna? Hybrid?) unless we were to have a chat with Herr Mozart, but I think Carlo Maria Giulini's version is as great as I can imagine...


----------



## Guest (Jun 21, 2011)

haydnfan said:


> I think I actually find myself disagreeing with every recommendation on this thread. Instead of being definitive, they are mediocre and some of them are good but not representative of the whole (for performances of a specific work). These responses are just further proof that there is no definitive recording for any work. PERIOD.


But I think most people here have already agreed that there really is no such thing as definitive - it is too objective a term, and can't really be defined. But in referring to iconic recordings/performances, I think it is very easy to make the case that there are such. That doesn't require unanimity of opinion - that you don't appreciate them as such doesn't change the fact that some performances have become iconic. I personally don't care for Gould's recordings of the Goldberg Variations, but I can't deny the fact that those recordings have become iconic. The same for du Pre and the Elgar Cello Concerto. It doesn't have anything to do with being "definitive," rather certain people will forever be associated with certain works. Casals and Bach's Cello Suites. Kleiber and Beethoven's 5th symphony. Those are not my first choices when I go to listen to those works, but they are linked in our minds.


----------



## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Some 'benchmark' (but not definitive) recordings of various works:

Beethoven - Symphonies 5 & 7: Vienna Philharmonic Orchesta/Carlos Kleiber
Dvořák - Symphony No 9 (New World): Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra/Kirill Kondrashin
Elgar - Cello Concerto: Jacqueline du Pre/London Symphony Orchestra/John Barbirolli
Mahler - Symphony No 2 (Resurrection): Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Hilde Rössl-Majdan/Philharmonia Orchestra & Chorus/Otto Klemperer
Mahler - Symphony No 8: Various/Chicago Symphony Orchestra/Georg Solti
Rakhmaninov - Symphonic Dances: Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra/Kirill Kondrashin
Ravel - Daphnis et Chloë: London Symphony Orchestra/Pierre Monteux
Ravel - Piano Concerto in G major: Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli/Philharmonia Orchestra/Ettore Gracis
Shostakovich - Symphonies 4, 9 and 13: Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra/Kirill Kondrashin
R Strauss - Ein Heldenleben: Chicago Symphony Orchestra/Fritz Reiner
Sibelius - Violin Concerto: David Oistrakh/Moscow Radio Symphony Orchestra/Gennadi Rozhdestvensky
Stravinsky - The Rite of Spring: Philharmonia Orchestra/Igor Markevitch
Tchaikovsky - Symphonies 4-6: Leningrard Philharmonic Orchestra/Yevgeni Mravinsky
Verdi - Requiem: Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Christa Ludwig, Nicolai Gedda, Nicolai Ghiaurov, Philharmonia Orchestra and Chorus/Carlo Maria Giulini

Just a few I would consider 'indispensable' recordings for any serious collector.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I think I actually find myself disagreeing with every recommendation on this thread. Instead of being definitive, they are mediocre...

You find Kleiber's 5th "mediocre"?


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Well it's outsold the others by several orders of magnitude and has had the most praise heaped on it by important people, its certainly has more definitiviness than the others. Whether it is our personal inclination (@haydnfan) is irrelevant.

Don't get me wrong. The Solti recording is one of the best and certainly a major masterpiece of recording history. But in no way is it a "definitive" recording. For all the praise heaped upon Solti's set, almost all the major critics admit that the singers Solti employed were almost all past their prime whereas those in the sets by the legendary 3K (Keilberth, Krauss, and Knappertsbusch) were far better. A great many also admit that Karajan's _Das Rheingold_ and _Die Walkure_ surpass Solti's... while Solti's _Siegfried_ and _Gotterdammerung_ are better than Karajan's. If you just browse through the recommendations of the greatest recordings of Wagner made by Wagner "experts" you can see that there is no real consensus as to the "definitive" nature of Solti's... or any other version of the ring. :

http://www.wagneropera.net/Recommendations/Recommendations-2008.htm

I initially went with Karajan because I love his recordings of _Parsifal_ and Tristan und Isolde and his Ring was generally ranked as one of the three great recordings of the modern era (along with Solti's and Bohm's). I also have Krauss' and Knappertsbusch' entire Ring as well as Solti's Das Rheingold and will likely get the rest of the ring by him as well as the Keilberth set (which is quite expensive).


----------



## Sofronitsky (Jun 12, 2011)

No.

If we're talking about William Kapell's rendition of the Khachaturian Piano Concerto, then I change my answer


----------

