# Nationality of composer + orchestra + conductor?



## mirepoix (Feb 1, 2014)

Excuse me if this has been asked and answered before, but I assure you I've searched the site via Google and found nothing...
My question is this: do you believe it's worthwhile/there's any value in recordings where the nationality of the composer and orchestra and conductor are the same? I remember a review of a Martinon led performance where the phrase "...back in the days when French orchestras sounded French" was used. 
Thanks in advance for any answers, _ considered opinions_ or even whimsical thoughts.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

To try to answer your question, yes I do think it can make a significant difference and add value
Often orchestras and conductors of the same nationality are champions of composers of that same nationality. I am thinking here as a brit of the wonderful recordings of Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Delius etc by such as Handley, Boult and Marriner with several UK orchestras. I am aware we are lucky to have a large number of UK orchestras so making the task a bit easier.
The same seems to be true for American music with Bernstein etc but I defer to others on here with much greater knowledge than me.
But is Beethoven better with a German orchestra and conductor when the field for comparison is much more international and diverse then I am not so sure.
So maybe the answer is as always "it depends"


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

French orchestras use different instruments in the wind section so there's some importance with them playing French répertoire.
Considering the success Gergiev has with almost anything Russian, there may be some merit to your argument...or more likely he's just very good and happens to be Russian. :lol:


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I oftentimes come across reviews where it is suggested that only the Russian conductors/orchestras really understand the Russian composers, etc.

Performance is about interpretation, so why must a piece be interpreted better by someone of the same nationality? And that isn't necessarily the interpretation that will resonate with me the most. I just don't put much stock in it, but who am I to say?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Shostakovich + Mravinsky + Leningrad PO. Despite the sonic limitations in general and the wet, rasping coughs on live recordings in particular, this combination is often unbeatable when it comes to the totally authentic warts-and-all Soviet musical experience. Whether any of the recordings themselves are definitive or not isn't particularly my priority in this case. However, it can't be denied that Mravinsky and Leningrad had much of the music in their blood before anyone else did, which possibly gives it a special 'edge'. 

As a basic principle I do agree with Brotagonist's comments, though.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Couac Addict said:


> French orchestras use different instruments in the wind section so there's some importance with them playing French répertoire.
> Considering the success Gergiev has with almost anything Russian, there may be some merit to your argument...or more likely he's just very good and happens to be Russian. :lol:


What different winds do they use? I'm curious.


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## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

Try to do a blindtest. Listen to a recording/performance and guess the nationality of the performers 
(im pretty sure that its impossible).


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Couac Addict said:


> French orchestras use different instruments in the wind section...


LOL. You're sure going to have to write more than you did there -- you've raised questions vs. answering them


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Sometimes, but only sometimes.

For example, Samson Francois played Chopin as if he were in a refined French drawing room whereas Rubinstein played as if he knew that a mazurka was a peasant dance from Mazuria with plasticity in the rhythmn and phrasing. Which one you prefer is, of course, up to you. Similarly there has been recent (brief) discussion on the performance of Berlioz that centred on the tradition within which the conductor developed. However, good interpretations can be from 'foreigners' - such as Sir Colin Davis' crucial work with Berlioz or Beecham with Sibelius.

In the past, there was more regional diversity in singing and playing and interpretation, I feel. The widespread use of recordings, increased ease of mobility of performers etc have led to greater homogenisation of performance and interpretation and so regional differences are less obvious. 

One could argue that a lot of the repertoire is now located in a central, ubiquitous tradition in which regional or national differences are downplayed. A shame, I think.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Possibly by having the composer+orchestra+conductor of the same nationality you'll have more *idiomatic* performances but I wouldn't say they are necessarily better.

This one










is widely considered one of the finest, although the composer is *American*, the orchestra is *German* and both conductor and soloist are *Italian*


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## Animato (Dec 5, 2013)

I don’t think there is any advantage with records composer+conductor+orchestra with same nationality (Russian orchestras playing Russian composers may be an exception).

Today, where all orchestras in Europe and America have international players, there is no significant difference between the sounds of the orchestras: they are all perfect.

But if you refer to some older recordings, you may notice some general qualities in the sound of orchestras of a certain country, which may be typical. I remember the broad “cinema-like” sound of the American orchestras, the rough, sometimes aggressive sound of Russian orchestras and the clear sometimes boring sound of german orchestras.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Except in cases where some technique or style is new and hasn't had time to spread yet, I'd be surprised if there's much more to it (the idea that, say, Italian musicians can play the music of Italian composers better than the musicians of other nations could) than prejudice, but it's a relatively pleasant little prejudice as prejudices go.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Shostakovich + Mravinsky + Leningrad PO. Despite the sonic limitations in general and the wet, rasping coughs on live recordings in particular, this combination is often unbeatable when it comes to the totally authentic warts-and-all Soviet musical experience. Whether any of the recordings themselves are definitive or not isn't particularly my priority in this case. However, it can't be denied that Mravinsky and Leningrad had much of the music in their blood before anyone else did, which possibly gives it a special 'edge'.
> 
> As a basic principle I do agree with Brotagonist's comments, though.


That claim can be made for Kondrashin & the Moscow PO in Shostakovich (in my humble opinion).


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

"Nationality" of an orchestra? Any orchestra may have many musicians from different countries comprising it.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

hpowders said:


> "Nationality" of an orchestra? Any orchestra may have many musicians from different countries comprising it.


This is a very good point. When did things start to become more cosmopolitan, orchestra-wise? Question open to all. :tiphat:


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Nationality of an orchestra is probably less important now in our ever increasing globalized and homogenized, cosmopolitan world. More recordings, videos, photos is creating a certain sameness in our world. One hundred years ago, I would like to have heard and compared live performances of a symphony orchestra from New York, London, Paris, Berlin and Moscow.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Headphone Hermit said:


> In the past, there was more regional diversity in singing and playing and interpretation, I feel. The widespread use of recordings, increased ease of mobility of performers etc have led to greater homogenisation of performance and interpretation and so regional differences are less obvious.
> 
> One could argue that a lot of the repertoire is now located in a central, ubiquitous tradition in which regional or national differences are downplayed. A shame, I think.


Opera lovers of a certain venerable age and collectors of old recordings always talk about the disappearance of one vocal tradition or another: the French, the verismo, the Wagnerian, the Viennese operetta, etc. By and large they are right; performing styles lose their purity as we get farther in time from the music that gave rise to them, as cultures mix and merge, as performers jet constantly around the globe, and as recordings increasingly become points of reference. Orchestral sound has suffered the same homogenization; orchestras do have their individual traits, but they are usually subtle and can't always be identified as "national."

I treasure some older recordings of French and Russian music by Ernest Ansermet conducting L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande, which half a century ago still had a French kind of tangy, unhomogenized wind ensemble which has now disappeared. I agree with headphone hermit that this loss of individuality is unfortunate.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Kirsten Flagstad was unfortunately Norwegian, not German. That about wraps it up for Nationalism and the infants who beg to suck from a country's tit.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

MoonlightSonata said:


> What different winds do they use? I'm curious.












The French basson is a different instrument to the German one (which is almost used by everyone around the word).
Different reed, bore, key layout, timbre. Different instrument...and bassoonists don't easily adapt from one to the other because of the different fingerings.
Keep that in mind next time you listen to Bolero or Rite of Spring. They were composed for a french bassoon but most hear them performed on a German one.

Similar story for the clarinet. Most people are used to the french one as it's used around the world....unless your in Germany where they have their own version.


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## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

This picture "couac addict" ...its absolutely shocking!


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

stevens said:


> This picture "couac addict" ...its absolutely shocking!


It's a special kind of 'sadness' :lol:


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Couac Addict said:


> The French basson is a different instrument to the German one (which is almost used by everyone around the word).
> Different reed, bore, key layout, timbre. Different instrument...and bassoonists don't easily adapt from one to the other because of the different fingerings.
> Keep that in mind next time you listen to Bolero or Rite of Spring. They were composed for a french bassoon but most hear them performed on a German one.
> 
> Similar story for the clarinet. Most people are used to the french one as it's used around the world....unless your in Germany where they have their own version.


These people could perhaps do wonders, if invited to political negotiations of the Very Serious sort ...


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