# Salieri in the New Yorker



## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Excellent piece by Alex Ross on a sympathetic, underrated composer:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/06/03/antonio-salieris-revenge


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> Excellent piece by Alex Ross on a sympathetic, underrated composer:
> 
> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/06/03/antonio-salieris-revenge


Not a bad article. It's a bit too generous towards Salieri in my opinion.

Mozart is immeasurably greater.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I think Salieri is considered a "somewhat obscure" composer and deserves that moniker.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> I think Salieri is considered a "somewhat obscure" composer and deserves that moniker.


I'm afraid his revival is fuelled by interest in his association with Mozart and of course the film and play.

I've hears some of his opera - and his requiem is not bad. But let's not get carried away - until Amadeus he was firmly buried in musical history and with good reason.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Credit where credit is due. Salieri's Variations on La Foglia de Spagna are the first extended orchestral variations without a solo instrument written. This is an honor usually (and mistakenly) assigned to Brahms's Haydn Variations.

Yeah, they're not really all that good, but still…


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Relationship with Mozart:

In the 1780s, while Mozart lived and worked in Vienna, he and his father Leopold wrote in their letters that several "cabals" of Italians led by Salieri were actively putting obstacles in the way of Mozart's obtaining certain posts or staging his operas. For example, Mozart wrote in December 1781 to his father that "the only one who counts in [the Emperor's] eyes is Salieri".[32] Their letters suggest that both Mozart and his father, being Austrians who resented the special place that Italian composers had in the courts of the Austrian nobility, blamed the Italians in general and Salieri in particular for all of Mozart's difficulties in establishing himself in Vienna. Mozart wrote to his father in May 1783 about Salieri and Lorenzo Da Ponte, the court poet: "You know those Italian gentlemen; they are very nice to your face! Enough, we all know about them. And if [Da Ponte] is in league with Salieri, I'll never get a text from him, and I would love to show him what I can really do with an Italian opera."[33] In July 1783, he again wrote to his father of "a trick of Salieri's",[34] one of several letters in which Mozart accused Salieri of trickery. Decades after Mozart's death, a rumour began to circulate that Mozart had been poisoned by Salieri. This rumour has been attributed by some to a rivalry between the German and the Italian schools of music.[35] Carl Maria von Weber, a relative of Mozart by marriage[36] whom Wagner has characterized as the most German of German composers, is said to have refused to join Ludlamshöhle [de] (Ludlam's cave), a social club of which Salieri was a member, and avoided having anything to do with him.[37] These rumours then made their way into popular culture. Albert Lortzing's Singspiel Szenen aus Mozarts Leben LoWV28 (1832) uses the cliché of the jealous Salieri trying to hinder Mozart's career.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Salieri#Relationship_with_Mozart

I doubt if Salieri's reputation will ever be able to overcome this regardless of how well he could compose. He was evidently a very political animal in the music scene who jealously guarded his position at Mozart's expense if what Mozart says is true. Did Salieri poison Mozart? I don't know, but something seems to have seriously damaged his reputation that's been hard to overcome.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2019)

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> Excellent piece by Alex Ross on a sympathetic, underrated composer:
> 
> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/06/03/antonio-salieris-revenge


Thanks. Interesting article about a composer who still attracts undue criticism for not being someone else.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Thats a nice little summary.

Ive read through Mozart's letters - I know there are forces persuaded to rehabilitate the relationship between Salieri and Mozart - I dont trust them. Why did Mozart send a carriage to convey Salieri and Mdm Cavalieri in to a perf of Zauberflote - and what is the meaning of Mozart's report that they were delighted and could not praise his opera enough?

Mozart was already desperate by this time - financially and maybe physically too. It is likely that Salieri in his lofty court position had succeeded in keeping Mozart from gaining the significant appointment he deserved - one that could have settled his finances. So this little stunt of hospitality on Mozart's part may have been nothing more than a last desperate attempt to butter Salieri up. Mozart did actually get a court position though I am not sure if Salieri had any say in it - maybe he did - a position paying hardly anything at all. In Jane Glover's book she details how Mozart was waiting patiently for the death of the court organist - a position that paid handsomely - but poor M died first. Salieri may have seen to it that M did not get that appointment anyway but I admit this is guesswork on my part.

Why would Salieri want to keep Mozart out?

Because he knew that Mozart was a superior composer - he may have been a mediocre talent himself - but I am certain he recognised what Mozart was. And the last thing he would want is a superior rival in the emperor's service. The public no doubt favoured Salieri - but there is mounting evidence that Mozart was considered by critics and fellow musicians to be the best composer in the Europe until the arrival of Beethoven. Salieri no doubt would have agreed.

But Salieri was a more important figure in the eyes of the city of Vienna.

Even DaPonte only collaborated with Mozart when Salieri seemed to have no use for him - no reflection on Mozart's ability - but Salieri's position was such that DaPonte would have considered it a better career move to work with the Italian. Thank goodness Salieri discarded his libretto for Cosi.

I dont blame Salieri for any of this. People did and still do try to protect their positions - not least in the musical world.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

stomanek said:


> I'm afraid his revival is fuelled by interest in his association with Mozart and of course the film and play.
> 
> I've hears some of his opera - and his requiem is not bad. But let's not get carried away - until Amadeus he was firmly buried in musical history and with good reason.


He was buried because he was unfortunately wedged between giants around him, and because the slanders began immediately. Well before Amadeus there was Pushkin.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

There is some dispute as to just how broke and just how despondent Mozart was during the last year and months of his life. Letters from Mozart during this period are actually quite upbeat and optimistic.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Reading the New Yorker piece is what brought me back here. If this question doesn't belong in this thread, then I'd be happy if someone could make it its own thread. (I don't think that I can start new threads yet.) But anyway, with Salieri in mind, I was just curious how any of you might rank Mozart's peers, specifically those writing opera during Mozart's lifetime. Is Saliera second in line? I've listened to and enjoyed all of Haydn's operas, and listen and own some of JC Bach's operas (howsoever I can find them) and listen to Salieri's operas. I also occasionally listen to operas by JM Haydn, Kozeluch, Georg Benda, Gluck, Cimarosa and Paisiello.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

vtpoet said:


> Reading the New Yorker piece is what brought me back here. If this question doesn't belong in this thread, then I'd be happy if someone could make it its own thread. (I don't think that I can start new threads yet.) But anyway, with Salieri in mind, I was just curious how any of you might rank Mozart's peers, specifically those writing opera during Mozart's lifetime. Is Saliera second in line? I've listened to and enjoyed all of Haydn's operas, and listen and own some of JC Bach's operas (howsoever I can find them) and listen to Salieri's operas. I also occasionally listen to operas by JM Haydn, Kozeluch, Georg Benda, Gluck, Cimarosa and Paisiello.


You will probably find that few people actually listen to any 18thC opera but Mozart. I have listened to some Haydn, Salieri - Gluck even - who can be good at times. It's so much of a one horse race we cant even see who is in second place and it doesnt matter.

I applaud you though for your range of operatic listening.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Opera aside, I have to say that the Salieri works I have heard don't really hold my attention.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

stomanek said:


> You will probably find that few people actually listen to any 18thC opera but Mozart. I have listened to some Haydn, Salieri - Gluck even - who can be good at times. It's so much of a one horse race we cant even see who is in second place and it doesnt matter.


Yeah, I don't particularly care for 19th century opera. Guess I'm the odd one out that way. My interest in opera starts with Monteverdi and pretty much ends with Beethoven.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

vtpoet said:


> Reading the New Yorker piece is what brought me back here. If this question doesn't belong in this thread, then I'd be happy if someone could make it its own thread. (I don't think that I can start new threads yet.) But anyway, with Salieri in mind, I was just curious how any of you might rank Mozart's peers, specifically those writing opera during Mozart's lifetime. Is Saliera second in line? I've listened to and enjoyed all of Haydn's operas, and listen and own some of JC Bach's operas (howsoever I can find them) and listen to Salieri's operas. I also occasionally listen to operas by JM Haydn, Kozeluch, Georg Benda, Gluck, Cimarosa and Paisiello.


I'm still investigating the period, but...

GLUCK
GLUCK
GLUCK
GLUCK
Mozart
Salieri (I've only heard _Les Danaides_, but it's powerful and sinewy). I'll listen to half a dozen more this year.

Haven't heard any of Haydn or Cimarosa's operas. Bach's _Amadis de Gaule _is brilliantly tuneful. Didn't like Paisiello's _Nina_.

As for the French: Monsigny wrote two really attractive operas (_Le roi et le fermier_, _Le déserteur_), which deserve more fame. I've only heard one Grétry - _Richard Coeur-de-lion _- but it's inventive, and has the beautiful, once famous "Ô Richard, ô mon roi". The Italian Sacchini's _Oedipe à Colone_ is moving, even sublime, with some lovely ensembles. I want to hear more Méhul -

and Lemoyne's _Phèdre_. I nodded off during the 2017 Paris performance; crowded, rather stuffy, theatre, high up, and jet lag caught up with me. I vaguely remember some beautiful ensembles towards the end.

There are plenty of excellent late 18th century operas beyond Mozart's seven!


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> I'm still investigating the period, but...
> 
> GLUCK
> GLUCK
> ...


Maybe there are - not as good though - otherwise they would be better known.

How many good 19THC operas are there besides the 30 or so in the repertoire?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

stomanek said:


> Maybe there are - not as good though - otherwise they would be better known.
> 
> *How many good 19THC operas are there besides the 30 or so in the repertoire?*


Many, there are a number of operas that aren't often performed as there aren't the singers that can do them justice. Interestingly Verdi's Macbeth and Don Carlo are in the repertoire now , whereas they were almost rarities over seventy years ago.

N.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> I'm still investigating the period, but...
> 
> ....Monsigny wrote two really attractive operas (_Le roi et le fermier_, _Le déserteur_), which deserve more fame. I've only heard one Grétry - _Richard Coeur-de-lion _- but it's inventive, and has the beautiful, once famous "Ô Richard, ô mon roi". The Italian Sacchini's _Oedipe à Colone_ is moving, even sublime, with some lovely ensembles. I want to hear more Méhul -


Yay! A kindred spirit. Thanks for those recommendations. I'll have to look up the Sacchini and Grétry.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

stomanek said:


> Maybe there are - not as good though - otherwise they would be better known.
> 
> How many good 19THC operas are there besides the 30 or so in the repertoire?


Actually, from a "musical" perspective, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 19th century operas aren't any better, in the aggregate, than 18th century operas. What changed is the "musical language": the emphasis shifted from opera as a kind of ensemble performance of orchestra and singers (baroque and classical) to a music that showcased vocal performance with orchestral accompaniment. Acknowledging that all generalities are flawed, I would say that 19th century opera aficionados go to opera to hear the opera stars and the vocal performances, whereas earlier opera fans go for the "music", and less for the opera stars. Again, I understand that 19th century aficionados go for the music too, obviously, but it's a music that puts the operatic performer front and center. And I know that 18th century opera fans love a good singer.

For instance, I'm an 18th century opera lover, but I haven't heard a single performance of an 18th century opera with Cecelia Bartoli that I like. She always strikes me as completely out of place, in terms of her voice and technique, always overpowering the orchestra and fellow singers. I think she's a stunningly beautiful singer, but I personally find her far better suited to 19th century opera.

I would take any opera by Gluck to my desert island expulsion over reams of Wagner.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

vtpoet said:


> Actually, from a "musical" perspective, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 19th century operas aren't any better, in the aggregate, than 18th century operas. What changed is the "musical language": the emphasis shifted from opera as a kind of ensemble performance of orchestra and singers (baroque and classical) to a music that showcased vocal performance with orchestral accompaniment. Acknowledging that all generalities are flawed, I would say that 19th century opera aficionados go to opera to hear the opera stars and the vocal performances, whereas earlier opera fans go for the "music", and less for the opera stars. Again, I understand that 19th century aficionados go for the music too, obviously, but it's a music that puts the operatic performer front and center. And I know that 18th century opera fans love a good singer.
> 
> For instance, I'm an 18th century opera lover, but I haven't heard a single performance of an 18th century opera with Cecelia Bartoli that I like. She always strikes me as completely out of place, in terms of her voice and technique, always overpowering the orchestra and fellow singers. I think she's a stunningly beautiful singer, but I personally find her far better suited to 19th century opera.
> 
> I would take any opera by Gluck to my desert island expulsion over reams of Wagner.


I'm the same with Bartoli. Bar her from singing Mozart.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

It always bothered me that Salieri got short shrift when discussions and writings always seemed to lean on the side of the great Mozart to the detriment of Salieri. Seemed he deserved better than that.
It's not unlike similar feelings I've had about the disinterest in the fine composer and librettist Arrigo Boito, who always stood in the shadow of the genius Verdi. 
After reading much about their relationship, I actually came away with a feeling that even Verdi found some talents in Boito that he wished he had.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

stomanek said:


> I'm the same with Bartoli. Bar her from singing Mozart.


Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. Maybe my soul isn't dark and twisted after all...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

vtpoet said:


> Actually, from a "musical" perspective, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 19th century operas aren't any better, in the aggregate, than 18th century operas. *What changed is the "musical language": the emphasis shifted from opera as a kind of ensemble performance of orchestra and singers (baroque and classical) to a music that showcased vocal performance with orchestral accompaniment. Acknowledging that all generalities are flawed, I would say that 19th century opera aficionados go to opera to hear the opera stars and the vocal performances, whereas earlier opera fans go for the "music", and less for the opera stars.* Again, I understand that 19th century aficionados go for the music too, obviously, but it's a music that puts the operatic performer front and center. And I know that 18th century opera fans love a good singer.


I have the opposite view - and so, apparently, did Gluck, who tried to get away from the "stand behind the footlights and sing your aria" format that allowed opera stars in the 18th century to cultivate vocal virtuosity and show-offery at the sacrifice of dramatic integrity and even of the musical score. 19th-century composers were similarly motivated as they gradually broke down the recitative-aria formula and the formality of set pieces in pursuit of a continuous, integrated, naturalistic flow of music, action and dialogue. With Wagner and those who came after him the "star singer" was more or less fully subordinated to the musical drama. Nobody goes to a performance of _Otello, Pelleas et Melisande, Der __Rosenkavalier_ or _Lulu_ to hear flashy coloratura and admire the prima donna's gowns (well, maybe some people do).

The trend nowadays is to "choreograph" the arias in Baroque and Classical opera with all sorts of action so that their formality (ABA, one basic emotion expressed in a couple of lines of text for five minutes) doesn't make the production look and feel static to modern sensibilities. But on a recording, the recitative-aria formula militates against the sense of dramatic movement that some people value in later opera. The greatest composers can overcome this to an extent, but I think it's a basic reason why 18th-century operas by composers not named Handel, Gluck and Mozart are rarely done despite the presence in them of much fine music.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

nina foresti said:


> It always bothered me that Salieri got short shrift ....


Related to that, somewhere on Amazon there's a review of a CD of Fasch's music, and somebody wrote something to the effect that nobody who takes Bach seriously would ever consider Fasch anything but a trivial hack. I thought that was amusing since Fasch, according to CPE, was actually admired (or at least appreciated) by his father. Apparently Bach didn't take himself seriously... Call it the Salieri effect.

Since reading the New Yorker article, I've been listening to Salieri's operas. There's no point at which I hit the repeat button, but to say that he was mediocrity incarnate goes too far. He can tell a good story. Maybe he's like a Thomas Dekker to Shakespeare's Shakespeare.

That said, every now and then Salieri, like JC Bach, could really write something really transcendent. The Largo of his Concerto for flute and oboe is one such piece---like a long duet out of an opera. The entire concerto is really extraordinary.

*Edit:* Mozart was said to have been a big fan of Pleyel. Now *there's* a composer more worthy of mediocrity's title.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

vtpoet said:


> Related to that, somewhere on Amazon there's a review of a CD of Fasch's music, and somebody wrote something to the effect that nobody who takes Bach seriously would ever consider Fasch anything but a trivial hack. I thought that was amusing since Fasch, according to CPE, was actually admired (or at least appreciated) by his father. Apparently Bach didn't take himself seriously... Call it the Salieri effect.
> 
> Since reading the New Yorker article, I've been listening to Salieri's operas. There's no point at which I hit the repeat button, but to say that he was mediocrity incarnate goes too far. He can tell a good story. Maybe he's like a Thomas Dekker to Shakespeare's Shakespeare.
> 
> That said, every now and then Salieri, like JC Bach, could really write something really transcendent. The Largo of his Concerto for flute and oboe is one such piece---like a long duet out of an opera. The entire concerto is really extraordinary.


I will listen to the flute and oboe concerto - with some scepticism but with open ears - since I have heard quite a few Salieri orch/concerto pieces and found them a little plain. But who knows.

A man who was one of the premiere composers in europe and star of the Viennese scene for 20 odd years could hardly be described as a mediocrity. That label really comes from Amadeus - and was Salieri's evaluation of himself relative to Mozart


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

vtpoet said:


> Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. Maybe my soul isn't dark and twisted after all...


She's a popular Susanna though - probably among people that incline towards 19THC opera. I cant see any Mozart fan who delights in the fine art of Lucia Popp, for example - tolerating Bartoli's gargly singing, wide grins and rolling eyes.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> I have the opposite view - and so, apparently, did Gluck, who tried to get away from the "stand behind the footlights and sing your aria" format that allowed opera stars in the 18th century to cultivate vocal virtuosity and show-offery at the sacrifice of dramatic integrity...


Then we're interpreting Gluck's reforms very differently. In fact, I would somewhat humorously write that I hold the opposite view to yours---and so apparently did Gluck. His intention was, after all, to bring the singer back into the ensemble's fold--in a sense. I would agree with everything else you've written---the static da capo form being just another element that differentiated 18th and 19th century opera.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

stomanek said:


> I will listen to the flute and oboe concerto - with some scepticism but with open ears....


Yeah, give it a try. If you don't find the music compelling, then I can't think of anything else I'd recommend (at least based on the limited availability of his music).


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Okay. Finally remembered the composer who I would nominate as the Patron Saint of Mediocrity: Franz Danzi. 

Had to go look him up. I think I've subconsciously evicted him from my mind palace. Every time I hear one of his musical compositions I want to go off and cut myself.

My guess though, is that everybody has their own personal "Salieri" who will greet them in Hell---orchestra at the ready.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

vtpoet said:


> Okay. Finally remembered the composer who I would nominate as the Patron Saint of Mediocrity: Franz Danzi.
> 
> Had to go look him up. I think I've subconsciously evicted him from my mind palace. Every time I hear one of his musical compositions I want to go off and cut myself.
> 
> My guess though, is that everybody has their own personal "Salieri" who will greet them in Hell.---orchestra at the ready.


I don't know. I have a couple of Danzi string quartet discs on CPO and have good memories of the music. Then again, I haven't listened to those cd's in about 15 years - good memories that go nowhere.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

stomanek said:


> I'm afraid his revival is fuelled by interest in his association with Mozart and of course the film and play.
> 
> I've hears some of his opera - and his requiem is not bad. But let's not get carried away - until Amadeus he was firmly buried in musical history and with good reason.


I disagree with you wholeheartedly. Amadeus didn't do Salieri any favors. There is a resurgence in him work because he was a very good composer in his own right. The operas recording by Rousset are very good operas. I love _Danaïdes_ and _Tarare_ is absolutely fantastic. The Harmonia recording of _La scoula de' gelosi_ is also a wonderful work. I also like _Falstaff_.

Mozart destroyed all other late 18th century, early 19th century Classical Period opera composers. Beethoven, Mozart and Schubert are my big three, but I am so thankful to Rousset and Talens Lyriques for championing the works of Salieri - they are well worth exploring. I have listened to _Tarare_ no stop since it was released Friday.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

AeolianStrains said:


> He was buried because he was unfortunately wedged between giants around him, and because the slanders began immediately. Well before Amadeus there was Pushkin.


Exactly. He was no a mediocrity in the least. History screwed him and it is really unfortunate. He was without a doubt one of the best composers of his period. Best would without a doubt be Mozart, but Salieri was a fine composer.

He had absolutely no reason to be envious of Mozart. However wrong it may have been he was far more revered during their time in Vienna than Mozart was.

Amadeus transformed classical music from an interest to a passion. Now I hate Peter Shaffer. Him turning Mozart into a buffoon, Joseph II (who was very progressive, enlightened and musically smart man) into a moron, and Salieri into a loser. It's unforgivable, because like me when I first saw it, most of the audience isn't going to know how absolutely wrong his portrayals of these three figures were.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

gellio said:


> Amadeus transformed classical music from an interest to a passion. Now I hate Peter Shaffer. Him turning Mozart into a buffoon, Joseph II (who was very progressive, enlightened and musically smart man) into a moron, and Salieri into a loser. It's unforgivable, because like me when I first saw it, most of the audience isn't going to know how absolutely wrong his portrayals of these three figures were.


Yes, a lot of people think that Shaffer's play is true. I attended a concert performance of Mozart and Salieri's joint cantata " Per la Ricuperata Salute di Ofelia" - and several people were astonished. Weren't they enemies? Wasn't Salieri mediocre? Didn't he kill Mozart? They'd seen _Amadeus_.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> Yes, a lot of people think that Shaffer's play is true. I attended a concert performance of Mozart and Salieri's joint cantata " Per la Ricuperata Salute di Ofelia" - and several people were astonished. Weren't they enemies? Wasn't Salieri mediocre? Didn't he kill Mozart? They'd seen _Amadeus_.


Exactly. You don't know what you don't know. Do I think Mozart was a better opera composer than Salieri? Of course. But, I think Mozart was a superior composer compared to everyone - Rossini, Puccini, Wagner and Verdi. All of them. He was simply beyond compare IMO. Other than Mozart's work, the only other 18th Century Classical Period operas in the standard repertoire are those of Gluck. It is such a shame, because I think the works of Salieri, Cimarosa and Martin y Soler are fantastic. I hope we see more and more forgotten composers works return. I love discovering forgotten works, because there are so many wonderful discoveries out there, including those by Salieri.

It's interesting also to see the influence Salieri had on Mozart and visa-versa. _Cosi fan tutte_ was definitely influenced by _La grotta di Trofonio_ and _Falstaff_ was absolutely influenced by _Le nozze di Figaro_, which was being revived when Salieri was writing _Falstaff_. That doesn't speak to two composers who were enemies. That doesn't speak to one composer thinking he is superior to another. That speaks of mutual admiration and respect between them.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

gellio said:


> Exactly. He was no a mediocrity in the least. History screwed him and it is really unfortunate. He was without a doubt one of the best composers of his period. Best would without a doubt be Mozart, but Salieri was a fine composer.
> 
> He had absolutely no reason to be envious of Mozart. However wrong it may have been he was far more revered during their time in Vienna than Mozart was.
> 
> Amadeus transformed classical music from an interest to a passion. Now I hate Peter Shaffer. Him turning Mozart into a buffoon, Joseph II (who was very progressive, enlightened and musically smart man) into a moron, and Salieri into a loser. It's unforgivable, because like me when I first saw it, most of the audience isn't going to know how absolutely wrong his portrayals of these three figures were.


The film does not portray Salieri as a loser. Salieri is reflecting with bitterness. He had all the fame and success - which he well acknowledges - but he lacked genius.

"Can you recall no melody of mine? I was the most famous composer in Europe!"

quote from the film.

By his own standards next to Mozart he considered himself to be a failure - thats a very different thing from what you are saying.

Maybe Salieri is a better composer than I have given him credit. I would need to spend some serious time listening. I have dabbled here and there mostly on youtube. I quite like the snippets which appear in Amadeus.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

gellio said:


> Exactly. You don't know what you don't know. Do I think Mozart was a better opera composer than Salieri? Of course. But, I think Mozart was a superior composer compared to everyone - Rossini, Puccini, Wagner and Verdi. All of them. He was simply beyond compare IMO. Other than Mozart's work, the only other 18th Century Classical Period operas in the standard repertoire are those of Gluck. It is such a shame, because I think the works of Salieri, Cimarosa and Martin y Soler are fantastic. I hope we see more and more forgotten composers works return. I love discovering forgotten works, because there are so many wonderful discoveries out there, including those by Salieri.
> 
> It's interesting also to see the influence Salieri had on Mozart and visa-versa. _Cosi fan tutte_ was definitely influenced by _La grotta di Trofonio_ and _Falstaff_ was absolutely influenced by _Le nozze di Figaro_, which was being revived when Salieri was writing _Falstaff_. That doesn't speak to two composers who were enemies. That doesn't speak to one composer thinking he is superior to another. That speaks of mutual admiration and respect between them.


OK - but I find it persuasive to believe that Salieri, in his position - wanted to keep Mozart out of the royal court. The emperor was very well disposed towards Mozart and it's baffling that he was never offered a lucrative position under his reign. Maybe all the positions were already filled - but they could have created one for him. Or perhaps it was that they considered him and Constanze were not the class of people they wanted in the royal court.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

It didn't help Mozart's cause and probably fueled his anger that the aristocracy in Austria favored Italian composers, including Salieri, over their own homegrown variety. He may simply have been a prophet without honor save in his own country, but it doesn't seem to have occurred to him.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

stomanek said:


> OK - but I find it persuasive to believe that Salieri, in his position - wanted to keep Mozart out of the royal court. The emperor was very well disposed towards Mozart and it's baffling that he was never offered a lucrative position under his reign. Maybe all the positions were already filled - but they could have created one for him. Or perhaps it was that they considered him and Constanze were not the class of people they wanted in the royal court.


I agree it is baffling he was never offered a position. I think it was merely for the fact that perhaps he wasn't viewed as a great composer during or popular (with the Viennese) during his lifetime. _Figaro_ received only what - 9 performances and it was withdrawn? That's my favorite opera. I consider it the best ever written. When I first discovered it, I listened to only it for months and months. People have different tastes, and it seems as though while Mozart was in Vienna, Salieri, Martin y Soler, and others were more popular, or perhaps viewed as better composers. I don't know. I have friends who would rather listen to Miley Cyrus than Mozart, which I find utterly baffling, so who knows.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

stomanek said:


> The film does not portray Salieri as a loser. Salieri is reflecting with bitterness. He had all the fame and success - which he well acknowledges - but he lacked genius.
> 
> "Can you recall no melody of mine? I was the most famous composer in Europe!"
> 
> ...


Fair enough. But Shaffer definitely vilified him. He also portrayed Mozart as a buffoon and cheater, and Joseph II a complete moron. None of which was true.

I just don't think Salieri would have ever actually felt threatened by Mozart or jealous of Mozart. He was much more revered during the time they were both in Vienna. I don't think he would have considered himself a failure next to Mozart. They each seemed to have appreciated each others talents. We don't really know the extent of their relationship or what Salieri or Mozart's inner thinkings were.

I hope you will explore some of Salieri's works. The recordings by Rousset are fantastic - all four of them (_La grotta di Trofonio_, _Les Danaides_, _Les Horaces_ and _Tarare_). The Harmonia Mundi recording of _La scoula de' gelosi_ is top notch too. My favorite Salieri opera is probably _Falstaff_ and the Tamas Pal recording is pretty good. I think the best recording is _Tarare_ and the most exciting is _Danaides_ - the closing chorus is magnificent.

Because of Mozart, a lot of great works left the repertoire. That's really such a shame, but understandable, considering Mozart's works were so much greater, but that doesn't mean there aren't dozens of enjoyable works out there. I have been listening to _Tarare_ non-stop since Friday. Really enjoyable.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Larkenfield said:


> It didn't help Mozart's cause and probably fueled his anger that the aristocracy in Austria favored Italian composers, including Salieri, over their own homegrown variety, He may simply have been a prophet without honor save in his own country, but it doesn't seem to have occurred to him.


I suspect Mozart resented the elevation of less capable Italians over his own stuff. In a letter to his father he wrote, "All Italians are charlatans," which seems to betray a snarky ill-feeling.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

gellio said:


> I agree it is baffling he was never offered a position. I think it was merely for the fact that perhaps he wasn't viewed as a great composer during or popular (with the Viennese) during his lifetime. _Figaro_ received only what - 9 performances and it was withdrawn? That's my favorite opera. I consider it the best ever written. When I first discovered it, I listened to only it for months and months. People have different tastes, and it seems as though while Mozart was in Vienna, Salieri, Martin y Soler, and others were more popular, or perhaps viewed as better composers. I don't know. I have friends who would rather listen to Miley Cyrus than Mozart, which I find utterly baffling, so who knows.


Im not sure - there is a lot of evidence that in he professional world of music - Mozart was regarded as the best composer until Beethoven. There are early reviews of Beethoven - looking back to Mozart as the example to follow after - nobody talks about Salieri then.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

stomanek said:


> Im not sure - there is a lot of evidence that in he professional world of music - Mozart was regarded as the best composer until Beethoven. There are early reviews of Beethoven - looking back to Mozart as the example to follow after - nobody talks about Salieri then.


I would agree with you. Beethoven is my #1 and I have read things he has said about Mozart. I would think most composers could and would have recognized Mozart's talent over that of almost every other composer.

What I'm talking about is the emperor, those in charge of musical decisions at court, and the people. It is them that I am not sure recognized Mozart's divine talent. It is in their eyes that Mozart may not have been deemed a great composer. It is with them that perhaps Salieri and other composers were held higher regard. When you look at the response to operas like _Una cosa rara_, _La grotta di Trofonio_ and _Axur_ in comparison to _Figaro_ I may be on to something. It is baffling to me that _Figaro_ - the opera I consider the greatest of them all - came and went so quickly with little fanfare, while these other operas were major hits.

While there is much to enjoy in the crappy recording of _Una cosa rara/I], I absolutely love Trofonio, Danaides, La scoula de' gelosi and Tarare, and other works by composers of Mozart's time, they were no Mozart.

If you want to try Salieri, Rousset's Danaides is the way to go. Listened to it yesterday. It really is a masterpiece._


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

gellio said:


> I would agree with you. Beethoven is my #1 and I have read things he has said about Mozart. I would think most composers could and would have recognized Mozart's talent over that of almost every other composer.
> 
> What I'm talking about is the emperor, those in charge of musical decisions at court, and the people. It is them that I am not sure recognized Mozart's divine talent. It is in their eyes that Mozart may not have been deemed a great composer. It is with them that perhaps Salieri and other composers were held higher regard. When you look at the response to operas like _Una cosa rara_, _La grotta di Trofonio_ and _Axur_ in comparison to _Figaro_ I may be on to something. It is baffling to me that _Figaro_ - the opera I consider the greatest of them all - came and went so quickly with little fanfare, while these other operas were major hits.
> 
> ...


_

There are some anecdotes regarding the emperor crying out "Bravo Mozart" at one of his concerts. But there is little else otherwise. Along with the general Viennese he seems to have preferred other composers. Figaro was not a big hit in Vienna - but it was in Prague. Otherwise I am as baffled as you are. But then Carmen was slammed as rubbish when it first appeared. I am afraid that it takes time for posterity to sort out the wheat from the chaff where art is concerned since there are other factors at play in the times in which works appear. There are exceptions - Beethoven was rated in his time and every time since. Coming back to Salieri - just having read the wikipedia entry - seems he had failures too - operas that appeared and vanished quickly._


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

stomanek said:


> There are some anecdotes regarding the emperor crying out "Bravo Mozart" at one of his concerts. But there is little else otherwise. Along with the general Viennese he seems to have preferred other composers. Figaro was not a big hit in Vienna - but it was in Prague. Otherwise I am as baffled as you are. But then Carmen was slammed as rubbish when it first appeared. I am afraid that it takes time for posterity to sort out the wheat from the chaff where art is concerned since there are other factors at play in the times in which works appear. There are exceptions - Beethoven was rated in his time and every time since. Coming back to Salieri - just having read the wikipedia entry - seems he had failures too - operas that appeared and vanished quickly.


Yes, I know about Prague. It's one of my favorite cities, so was a thrill to see the theater where _Don Giovanni_ premiered. I believe the massive success of _Figaro_ there prompted Mozart to say, "My Pragers, they understand me." Yes, Salieri did have failures, but it is still astounding that Vienna didn't go nuts for _Figaro_ - it is just the best. If it was a failure in Vienna, it was the greatest failure ever. I will never get enough of it.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

gellio said:


> Yes, I know about Prague. It's one of my favorite cities, so was a thrill to see the theater where _Don Giovanni_ premiered. I believe the massive success of _Figaro_ there prompted Mozart to say, "My Pragers, they understand me." Yes, Salieri did have failures, but it is still astounding that Vienna didn't go nuts for _Figaro_ - it is just the best. If it was a failure in Vienna, it was the greatest failure ever. I will never get enough of it.


Its astounding that Vienna didn't go nuts for Mozart - period.

It did eventually of course.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

stomanek said:


> Its astounding that Vienna didn't go nuts for Mozart - period.
> 
> It did eventually of course.


They do now, LOL. It's my favorite city - I go every summer. Mozart is to be found every where there. There is a large monument to him in the palace garden. There's also a grand monument to Beethoven, and a very famous one to Strauss II, and Schubert gets a small one in the Stadt Park.

I visit them all every year, even though I'm not a huge Strauss fan, my mom is. The best is the Central Cemetery. Two of my favorites entombed right next to each other - Beethoven and Schubert, with a Mozart memorial in the center of the musicians ring. Brahms is there too, and so are a bunch of the Strauss's. Really something to see. Had no idea Salieri was there until recently. Of course, he's not with these other musicians but I will seek him out and maybe leave some flowers.

That city is a classical music, architecture and garden lovers paradise. It is the place I am most happy.

But, they do love their Mozart. Too bad they didn't when he was alive. I hope, somehow, where ever he is, he knows.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

gellio said:


> They do now, LOL. It's my favorite city - I go every summer. Mozart is to be found every where there. There is a large monument to him in the palace garden. There's also a grand monument to Beethoven, and a very famous one to Strauss II, and Schubert gets a small one in the Stadt Park.
> 
> I visit them all every year, even though I'm not a huge Strauss fan, my mom is. The best is the Central Cemetery. Two of my favorites entombed right next to each other - Beethoven and Schubert, with a Mozart memorial in the center of the musicians ring. Brahms is there too, and so are a bunch of the Strauss's. Really something to see. Had no idea Salieri was there until recently. Of course, he's not with these other musicians but I will seek him out and maybe leave some flowers.
> 
> ...


Well - I hope it is true love and not exploitation just for the tourist revenue. I like Vienna too. A lot of the city is still old style or at least it looks like it did in the 60s - like the internet doesn't exist. Some very good cafes. Yes and a Mozart fan will always feel good in Vienna - he seems to own the city more than any other composer, which is, in my view - as it should be, at last.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

stomanek said:


> Well - I hope it is true love and not exploitation just for the tourist revenue. I like Vienna too. A lot of the city is still old style or at least it looks like it did in the 60s - like the internet doesn't exist. Some very good cafes. Yes and a Mozart fan will always feel good in Vienna - he seems to own the city more than any other composer, which is, in my view - as it should be, at last.


I think it's true love. The first opera to be performed at the opening of the State Opera House in 1869 was _Don Giovanni_. It reopened in 1955, after extensive World War II damage, with a performance of _Fidelio_. I love that - my two favorite composers getting their due.

When I was there in 2015, I didn't pay attention to what was on schedule, and I was walking by one night and the performance of _Fidelio_ was being broadcast on a huge screen on the side of the opera house. I loved that.

Now, the whole Sisi (Empress Elisabeth) love every where is perhaps for exploitation. She was very unhappy in Vienna, and rarely there. The people didn't know her at all, but now she is every where in Vienna.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

stomanek said:


> There are some anecdotes regarding the emperor crying out "Bravo Mozart" at one of his concerts. But there is little else otherwise. Along with the general Viennese he seems to have preferred other composers....


There is a very touching story about this, not apocryphal but true. Mozart once said that before he died, he would know that he had finally touched the hearts of his listeners if nobody clapped-being too moved to clap. This is exactly what happened upon the first performance of The Magic Flute. Mozart had found his Viennese audience. The audience was so moved by the opera that they sat in stunned silence. As everyone knows, Mozart died soon afterward.

I think that if Mozart had lived just another ten years, his story would have been very different. He found his niche with The Magic Flute. Schikenader would have commissioned a sequel from Mozart and the rest would have been history. As it happens, Schikenader did commission a sequel from Peter von Winter called Das Labyrinth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/16/...dies-das-labyrinth-for-american-premiere.html


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

vtpoet said:


> There is a very touching story about this, not apocryphal but true. Mozart once said that before he died, he would know that he had finally touched the hearts of his listeners if nobody clapped-being too moved to clap. This is exactly what happened upon the first performance of The Magic Flute. Mozart had found his Viennese audience. The audience was so moved by the opera that they sat in stunned silence. As everyone knows, Mozart died soon afterward.
> 
> I think that if Mozart had lived just another ten years, his story would have been very different. He found his niche with The Magic Flute. Schikenader would have commissioned a sequel from Mozart and the rest would have been history. *As it happens, Schikenader did commission a sequel *from Peter von Winter called Das Labyrinth.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/16/...dies-das-labyrinth-for-american-premiere.html


oh no - how could he

shrewd operator though


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