# What is it about bassoonists?



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

One thing I have really liked about this forum is the chance to hear the opinions and experiences of real actual orchestral musicians. Among the most vocal seem to be bassoon players -- mbhaub, Heck148, Knorf . . . Is there any correlation here -- bassoonists as a type are more vocal/opinionated/headstrong/have more time on their hands? -- or is it just happenstance?


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

The poster "arpeggio" I believe also plays bassoon


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

There is something about bassoonists. Every time I go to the International Double Reed Society convention (drats! cancelled this summer) I am always amazed and pleasantly surprised just how friendly, helpful, nice and interesting bassoonists tend to be. They're always willing to share information, help with problems. And they're a trusting lot, too. When I wanted to try out a contrabassoon (we're talking a $20,000 hunk of equipment) the dealer sent it to me without ever having met me or taking credit card information or anything. I can talk to the greatest bassoonists in the world who play in the great orchestras in the US or Europe and they're just nice, wonderful people. Not snobby or aloof. There's a sense of camaraderie in the double reed world that probably creates this openness. Sitting on the porch at Lorin Glickman's Bassoon Camp in the evening is a great experience; you meet so many different people. 

Now one bassoon player I know would put it like this: The bassoon is regarded as the most difficult wind instrument to master. To do well, the player must have a superior intellect and therefore his opinions should be listened to and respected. Of course, he's also a lawyer...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> The bassoon is regarded as the most difficult wind instrument to master. To do well, the player must have a superior intellect and therefore his opinions should be listened to and respected...


Yes, most definitely true!! :devil:[of course, I'm not the least bit biased!! :angel: :lol:]


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> Yes, most definitely true!! :devil:[of course, I'm not the least bit biased!! :angel: :lol:]


Can confirm! I'm also not at all biased in any way.

I have more time on my hands right now for a few reasons, not the least of which being that every gig this spring and summer I had on the books has been canceled. My next gig is in September, if then.  I haven't gone this long without orchestra work since I was a teenager.

Another interesting fact is that a lot of bassoonists are also composers, like me. Some are formally trained, like me, some just "for fun," but quite a lot.

Funny story about IDRS. I've performed at those conferences numerous times, and in general it's a blast: a bunch of people who love music, geeking out about double reed stuff. There is usually at least one hosted shindig, with live music, and beer. What I've discovered, without fail, is that after about 9pm the only people still at the shindig having fun are the bassoonists. Where did the oboists go? Who knows.

For myself, yes I'm argumentative and headstrong. Guilty. But I suspect it's more the composer side of me than the bassoonist. The bassoonist side of me is the guy who gets all "HavE i tOLd yoU guYs, I LOVE yoU guys! diD I tell yOU i loVE yOu gUys?!" Hugs all around. Etc.

But I do try to be fair minded, willing to change my mind as well as concede good points when they're made, and be ready to mock myself.


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

I'm a musicologist by trade but I do have a degree in bassoon. We do seem to be disproportionately represented here, but I'm not complaining -- most of the people in the bassoon world that I have interacted with, from principals of the top orchestras in the world down to children, have been kind, generous, passionate people who simply love sharing their passion with others. I think it's a small enough group of people that it really feels like a community, in a way that I suspect violinists or pianists wouldn't recognize. We're very fortunate to have so many experienced orchestral bassoonists on this forum.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

When I was growing up, the principal bassoon of the BSO (maybe Heck remembers him) was Sherman Walt. I don't have the ear to judge how good an instrumentalist he was, but seemed like a really interesting fellow (I think as a hobby he repaired musical instruments).


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Sherman Walt was terrific, and quite the character to all reports. Alas, I never met him.

ETA: I think he started as principal with the CSO.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

MarkW said:


> bassoonists as a type are more vocal/opinionated/headstrong/have more time on their hands?


Yes. There's a really good historical one that I like,
Geyersbach, the "nanny-goat bassoonist"


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

Bassoonists don't experience the terrible competition among flautists. This must help keep some friendliness.

And maybe we're over-represented on Internet forums because meeting bassoonists in real life is uncommon.

Definitely, there is this sense of doing something rare. A bit like making experimental archaeology or collecting historical computers: if you meet someone with the same passion, you want to discuss a bit, share experiences - something you wouldn't with every car driver.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Also, to get good at the bassoon, you really have to love it. You have to be a person who loves deeply and passionately all kinds of difficult things. If you don't love the bassoon, it will frustrate you endlessly and you'll quit. That love spills over to lots of other things in music but not just music.

Fun fact: on the Wikipedia Bassoon page, a ways down the article in the "Popular Music" section, there's a picture of a bassoonist in a rock quintet known as "Edmund Wayne," at the Treefort Music Fest. She was a former student of mine! Alas, I think she doesn't play anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassoon#Popular_music


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Knorf said:


> Sherman Walt was terrific, and quite the character to all reports. Alas, I never met him.
> 
> ETA: I think he started as principal with the CSO.


I only met him a few times, post-concert...he did play in Chicago, but was fired by Kubelik in c.'51 (he also fired the principal flute, and clarinet - Baker, Brodie, Sharrow replaced them)...I played with an oboist, Curtis graduate who went to school with him...he said Walt went thru a time without a permanent instrument...he would practice fingerings on a broomstick, which he carried around with him.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Enthalpy said:


> Bassoonists don't experience the terrible competition among flautists. This must help keep some friendliness.


Hmmm... well, there are fewer bassoonists than flautists, and, yes, the latter can really be cutthroat at each other....but the bassoon world has those types as well...I've informed our personnel managers a few times that "bassoonist xxx" must be erased from the call list.
I did a lot of contracting/personnel managing for many years....you have to be on the alert for that kind of stuff. At the professional level, it's a real no-no....just doesn't fly.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> Hmmm... well, there are fewer bassoonists than flautists, and, yes, the latter can really be cutthroat at each other....but the bassoon world has those types as well...I've informed our personnel managers a few times that "bassoonist xxx" must be erased from the call list.
> I did a lot of contracting/personnel managing for many years....you have to be on the alert for that kind of stuff. At the professional level, it's a real no-no....just doesn't fly.


That's for sure. You have to be easy to work with, especially as a sub; no one is good enough to tolerate their being a knob. I've had to have this conversation with our orchestra manager myself. It's sad to put someone who needs work on a "do not call" list, but it does happen.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

It seems many bassoonists have strong outside interests/hobbies/avo hubcations...Dave Van Hoesen was an avid astronomer, and a quite accomplished engineer/metallurgist... Bill Polisi (NBC, NYPO, Cleveland) told an interesting story... coming up thru the Depression, times were really tough, one often knew not when the next meal might be coming...he was a Philadelphia boy...at some point, early 30s, he and a buddy developed a very special type of tomato from their garden...Campbell Soup company learned of it, purchased the patents/rights, whatever, and blessed them with a most sizable and welcome $$check$$ for their efforts!! Bill's son, Joey, is well-known as long-time head of Juilliard School.
Oh, myself?? I'm an avid scuba diver, 100s of hours Actual Bottom Time...used to do lots of rock climbing, mountain climbing among other things...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Knorf said:


> That's for sure. You have to be easy to work with, especially as a sub; no one is good enough to tolerate their being a knob. I've had to have this conversation with our orchestra manager myself. It's sad to put someone who needs work on a "do not call" list, but it does happen.


Really - best advice you can give students seeking to break into professional world...take the gig, prepare, do your very best, have a completely positive attitude, support your principal (even if said principal is totally lame) and your section, thank the contractor/pers mgr.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hammeredklavier said:


> Yes. There's a really good historical one that I like,
> Geyersbach, the "nanny-goat bassoonist"


Lol!! Of course, in more recent times, there was Eli Carmen!!


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> Really - best advice you can give students seeking to break into professional world...take the gig, prepare, do your very best, have a completely positive attitude, support your principal (even if said principal is totally lame) and your section, thank the contractor/pers mgr.


Absolutely all true. As principal, I want everything to be easy. Not the music itself; _that_ can be as demanding as it needs to be. But everything supporting the music: let's keep it easy. I had to learn what that means, when playing in the section, the hard way! :lol: But as principal, if my section makes it easy for me, I make it easy for them. Easy peasy. And then nothing extra interferes with whatever the music is demanding!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Knorf said:


> ...after about 9pm the only people still at the shindig having fun are the bassoonists. Where did the oboists go? Who knows.


Probably to make reeds.

Another bassoonist side job: Jeff Lyman, bassoon professor at Michigan but once from Arizona State, while struggling to find a good bassoon gig, studied pastry baking - he's quite good at it.

And what other instrument is so comical that it became the subjects of two books?


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> Another bassoonist side job: Jeff Lyman, bassoon professor at Michigan but once from Arizona State, while struggling to find a good bassoon gig, studied pastry baking - he's quite good at it.


Haha, cool. I know Jeff! Not really well, just IDRS conferences. But I didn't know this!

One of my own odd non-music jobs that almost, but thankfully didn't, become a career: Oracle database administrator, Linux based.


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

I didn't know this about Jeff either -- I've worked with him on a couple of occasions. He also writes some interesting articles that could fall under the music theory/musicology umbrella. Off the top of my head, he did one on the D/Db debate in the Firebird solo. He has a lot of talents.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

MrMeatScience said:


> Off the top of my head, he did one on the D/Db debate in the Firebird solo.


Oh, gawd!! (smh) ;-)


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Seriously, I won't be touching that debate with a ten-foot pole.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Enthalpy said:


> Bassoonists don't experience the terrible competition among flautists. This must help keep some friendliness.
> 
> And maybe we're over-represented on Internet forums because meeting bassoonists in real life is uncommon.
> 
> Definitely, there is this sense of doing something rare. A bit like making experimental archaeology or collecting historical computers: if you meet someone with the same passion, you want to discuss a bit, share experiences - something you wouldn't with every car driver.


Maybe it's sort of like the dynamic with violists. The instruments are maybe a little underappreciated and unjustly ridiculed sometimes, but all the same they're beautiful and indispensable in themselves. It might give the players a little more of an "even keel" type of personality, with some humility that more "prima donna" instrumentalists can lack. Pianists and violinists being the worst. :lol:


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Knorf said:


> Seriously, I won't be touching that debate with a ten-foot pole.


I will. Loren Glickman played that part on Stravinsky's own recording and asked the composers which is correct. According to Glickman, Stravinsky said to play it whichever way you want. There is no one answer.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Heck148 said:


> Oh, gawd!! (smh) ;-)


Would it be interesting to the rest of us to know what that debate is?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> I will. Loren Glickman played that part on Stravinsky's own recording and asked the composers which is correct. According to Glickman, Stravinsky said to play it whichever way you want. There is no one answer.


According to past accounts, Stravinsky told Ben Kohon(NYPO) to play a Db...Another account says he told Fred Moritz (LAPO) the same thing...Db. Boulez, however, insists that D natural is correct...D appears in the string accompaniment....I've done it both ways...was not an issue with the conductors.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I concur about the difficulty of playing the bassoon.

I play with the National Concert Band of America. They were missing a bass clarinetist. They had sufficient bassoonists for the group. I used to play the bass clarinet in college. So I rented a bass clarinet, got my bass clarinet chops and eventually purchased a nice Buffet bass clarinet. The problem with the bass clarinet is that unless you have a really good instrument, it is extremely difficult to play the high notes. Most band works are composed for high school bands so they very rarely write high bass clarinet parts but on occasion one get some really high parts like in Creston's _Celebration Overture_, That is why I purchased the artist model Buffet.

I also play some oboe for my own enjoyment.

The bottom line is playing them is piece of cake compared to the bassoon.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

I think you have to be really smart, musically gifted, and practical to play the bassoon. I one wrote a commissioned work for a bassoonist who has been very successful in Canada and the USA -- a great experience. The instrument has several registers each with its own characteristics. No lack of variety here! But in the end it's the tone achieved by an excellent player with a fine instrument and even better reed that knocks me out.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

consuono said:


> Pianists and violinists being the worst. :lol:


Oh, puh...lea...se, you have one lurking amongst you and I'm not a violinist!


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Roger Knox said:


> Oh, puh...lea...se, you have one lurking amongst you and I'm not a violinist!


Well I'm a pianist too (in a manner of speaking anyway). I know how we are. :lol:


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

MarkW said:


> Would it be interesting to the rest of us to know what that debate is?


Here's an article that explains the issue, how it came about and common practice:
http://www.orchestralbassoon.com/stravinsky-firebird-pedagogy


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> Here's an article that explains the issue, how it came about and common practice:
> http://www.orchestralbassoon.com/stravinsky-firebird-pedagogy


That's a good article.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

My cousin's son is well on his way to a successful career as a bassoonist in Europe. He started on the clarinet, but didn't take to it. When he switched to the bassoon at the age of 11 or so, things took off, and he was amazingly proficient after only a year, when I first heard him play. Maybe he inherited a talent for bass lines (my cousin is a cellist). 

Different instruments do require different skills and personalities. For instance, I've always seen some as like golf, and some bowling. The violin, and maybe the bassoon too, may be like golf, i.e., very challenging right from the start. Simply making contact with the ball and consistently hitting it in approximately the right direction takes a lot of time and effort. With bowling, even a young child can roll a strike in their first visit to a bowling alley. And moderately skilled amateurs will roll a perfect 300 game now and then (My secretary, a good weekend league bowler, rolled two in competition). But averaging 200 or more over an extended period? Not easy. The flute is like bowling: pretty easy to do on an intermediate level, very hard to do any better than that.


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

I always mix the two. IS it the basoon or the oboe that sounds too often like a broken duck except for pro players:devil:


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Machiavel said:


> I always mix the two. IS it the basoon or the oboe that sounds too often like a broken duck except for pro players:devil:


The oboe is an ill wind that nobody blows good.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The oboe sounds like the broken duck. The bassoon like grandpa passing gas. Puccini used bassoon to hilarious effect in Gianni Schicchi. Bassoons get a lot of ribbing. We're the "clown of the orchestra", "the belching bedpost".


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

And yet, when composers from Beethoven through Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich want to express the deepest melancholy, they turn to the bassoon.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> Here's an article that explains the issue, how it came about and common practice:
> http://www.orchestralbassoon.com/stravinsky-firebird-pedagogy


Thank you! (Since you mentioned The Composer's Advocate recently, that's exactly the kind of textual conundrum that Leinsdorf would research and agonize over, before arriving at a solution hat he would argue *must* be correct!  Actually, I think he recorded the suite from The Firebird, but I have no idea which side he came down on.)

cheers


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Knorf said:


> And yet, when composers from *Beethoven* through Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich want to express the *deepest melancholy*, they turn to the bassoon.












Try this:


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

I always wanted to play the bassoon, so maybe I'm a spiritual bassoonist. I can play violin and horns and a bit of piano but I've never so much as picked up a bassoon, or any double-reeded instrument for that matter.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Hammeredklavier, you think I don't know my rep? Give the opening of Beethoven 9th, 3rd mvt. a listen.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

What the heck???


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

''Purification by sage''???


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Vasks said:


> What the heck???


Looks like a pretty elaborate vape mod.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Or maybe trying to get a wind tunnel effect and find out just how wind is expelled from the instrument? It's all over the place. Since singing seems to really project a lot of virus particles, can playing any wind instrument be any different? 

It always cracks me up when I'm playing in a gig that is amplified, and the audio tech - usually a young guy with no ear and knows only rock music - puts the microphone right at the bell opening, not realizing that depending on what note it being played the sound comes out in totally different places - kind of a stereo effect at times.

AND: Another composer who loved the bassoon was Sibelius. He thought the sound was like the "soul of Finnish music". I think Mahler hated bassoons - there really aren't many good solos in any of the symphonies. His contrabassoon parts are more soloistic.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

The bassoon has a really important role to play in Mahler, though, even though there are few big solos. The bassoons as a section are frequently exposed. I always enjoy playing Mahler!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Mahler wrote pretty good bassoon parts overall...there are some good passages in all of his big works Sym #4 has lots of exposed stuff, some good solos....#9 has excellent bassoon writing, esp mvt II...the closing section - bassoon, contrabassoon, horn, viola is really neat...
Mahler gets the range up there pretty well, too...#7/III has a tough lick near the beginning - high D - E, fast, exposed, with flutes, iirc...

Sibelius loved the bassoon...his works are great fun to play...he moves it around pretty well, too..really explores the different tonal qualities in the various registers.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I also love the bassoon and contrabassoon solos in _Das Lied von der Erde_. They're short, but soooooo good.


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

consuono said:


> [...] It might give the players a little more of an "even keel" type of personality, with some humility that more "prima donna" instrumentalists can lack. Pianists and violinists being the worst.


This is the *violinists' personality* (my first instrument, the one I played longest and least badly):




doing this brings the music zero dot nothing, but they trained very hard at least a whole day just to tell the public:
"Look what I can do!".​And because that nonsense was especially stupid, the two jokers could mobilize the best-known violinist.

I don't know if only violinists or other musicians too appreciate the performance. I rolled on the floor.


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

Yes, bassoonists seems to be more friendly to an other, possibly because the competition is less fierce than among flautists as an example.

Marie Boichard is about 20, she starts her career. And look who makes laudatory comments on her Youtube records: the very famous Gustavo Nuñez personally
Wnz1t7rYKhk - MXHwvFqc3Tc


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

Other nice example: Lola Descours puts a record on the Web
DICqfmcc_bg​and a well known bassoonist,
Bálint Mohai​makes a laudatory comment.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

One thing is certain -- there is a worldwide shortage of bassoonists. If you are a talented musician who aspires to an orchestral career, take up the bassoon.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

larold said:


> One thing is certain -- there is a worldwide shortage of bassoonists. If you are a talented musician who aspires to an orchestral career, take up the bassoon.


You'd be surprised - when a major job opening occurs, there are plenty of aspiring bassoonists who will show up!!


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

basoon is one of the most awesome instruments ever

Bach surely loved it too, or else the guy who sounded like a goat would not have pissed him off so much


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> You'd be surprised - when a major job opening occurs, there are plenty of aspiring bassoonists who will show up!!


No kidding! Even at small per-service jobs the competition can be remarkably fierce.


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