# Classical Myths: Debunked!



## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

I have a great history professor right now. (American history).

One of the things I love about his class is his debunking of commonly believed nationalistic myths.

Such as Paul Revere's "Midnight Ride"; Every American school kid has heard 100 times the story of how Paul Revere made his famous midnight ride to warn Concord that "The British are coming!!!"
Well, it's a myth. In truth, Revere was apprehended by British patrolman while en route and failed to ever make it to Concord that night. But it was a Mr. Samuel Prescott, whom Revere had met with along the way going the same direction that night, and it was indeed Prescott who managed to slip away from the guards and it was Prescott alone who managed to make it to Concord, not Revere.

Or the hack historian Mason Weems who wrote the first biography of George Washington (without any reference to primary sources), the source of countless apocryphal myths such as the "Cherry Tree, I cannot tell a lie" story :lol:

Or the respected historian Jordan Sparks, who was given exclusive access to the Library of Congress's collection of George Washington's original writings and documents in order to compile a nice collection for publication... Sparks was so appalled to see how poor a writer and speller Washington was (Washington never had an education beyond about the middle school level), that Sparks ended up largely editing and modifying Washington's original writings when he published them just to protect the sanctity of the man...

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Anyway here is my point in a nutshell. People tend to deify and mythify their heroes. If we hear a heroic story about them, we'd love for it to be true. And the glaring negatives, we tend to want to ignore. With enough repetition, a complete falsehood can end up being accepted as common fact. It's strange how these falsehoods can propagate so easily.

I would love to hear some classical music myths DEBUNKED!

I'm sure there are many famous stories out there which we love to believe, but which a thorough review of primary source materials would reveal to be unverifiable exaggerations...

Or, some huge ugly negatives about our heroic composers that we would wish were not so! But reveal them to be more human than demigod! (Besides Wagner's antisemitism, everyone knows about that)


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2017)

How about this one?



> Contrary to later myth, Bach was never forgotten before his revival in the 19th century, but he was more admired than performed.


Source: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2004/jun/04/classicalmusicandopera


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Alkan did not die by being crushed under a toppled book case.

There is still no certainty about Tchaikovsky's death. The (forced) suicide theory cannot be proven (nor can any other theory).


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> How about this one?


It depends on the definition of "forgotten". For example, I think few people would disagree that Pachelbel was quite forgotten until the Canon craze began in the 20th century. Yet I remember reading that his music was regularly performed in small German churches all throughout the 18th and the 19th centuries, unlike that of many of his contemporaries. Or take Ockeghem, whose music was reviewed and commented upon by leading scholars throughout the centuries (Forkel, Burney...). Yet neither those scholars nor anybody else at the time could hear a performance of Ockeghem's works. His music has only been performed well in the recent decades, and one could easily say he was forgotten... just not by theorists, scholars, and/or enthusiasts.

With Bach the situation is the same. Some church music of his would be performed here and there after his death, and other works would be preserved and/or performed occasionally by Bach family members and their circle (I think CPE Bach organized a partial performance of the Mass at one point), so in that sense he was not forgotten at all. And yet even after the 19th century revival it took almost 100 years for the cello suites to enter popular repertoire, and some 150 years for the Goldberg Variations to follow suit, so you could say Bach's true achievement hasn't been fully appreciated until comparatively recently.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

All those Mozart myths. His musical memory was phenomenal, but the stories told about it tend to acquire tails. And then the myth that he died a pauper, or was so poor that he was buried in a pauper's grave. No. _Amadeus _was a great film, but accurate biography it was not.


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

Well... looking at Jefferson's Monticello score library... looks like he did have a lot of Haydn and CPE Bach but no Bach Senior to be found. Jefferson enjoyed playing music with his family and once boasted of three hours a day of violin practice! (hopefully not while President).


Here is a quote from CPE Bach. (Criticizing the mental rigours and complexity of his daddy's musician's music)
"A musician cannot move others unless he too is moved. He must of necessity feel all of the affects that he hopes to arouse in his audience, for the revealing of his own humour will stimulate a like humour in the listener."
~I hope this is not an apocryphal quote because now I am skeptical of ALL quotes unless I see primary sources!! Some quotes, I have learned, are only inferred, but never directly said!!! Still must learn German....


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

How about the story dealing with the publication of Beethoven's publication of his Opus 1, in which Haydn allegedly advised against the publication of trio no. 3, claiming it was "too complex for the public"? I've heard that the evidence for this is shaky...


And yes! The film Amadeus definitely did a great deal in propagating falsehoods about the relationship between Mozart and Salieri I do believe.. is this not so?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

First, the play and film Amadeus were never intended as a biography, but used the speculation to create a Salieri who could be the mouthpiece for Peter Schaeffer's musings about the unjust distribution of God-given talents.

Second, Paul Revere nevertheless did make it to Lexington, where the Revolution started, and where the awakened Minutemen awaited the arrival of the British by drinking in nearby Buckman Tavern. Revere was then apprehended in Lincoln, next to where the old Buttrick's ice cream stand used to be.

Third. . . what was this thread about?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> Alkan did not die by being crushed under a toppled book case.
> 
> There is still no certainty about Tchaikovsky's death. The (forced) suicide theory cannot be proven (nor can any other theory).


Actually, the Tchaikovsky suicide theory has been debunked. We know who make it up out of thin air. Tchaikovksy never tried to kill himself - or, at least, he never tried hard enough that anyone noticed.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

All those myths are wrong. Not just wrong, but wrong headed. In reality nobody is great. No reason to admire anyone. A hero is a normal average jamoke with a better myth. A winner is a loser with better luck. Love is exactly like an overdose of chocolate. We are exactly the same as lettuce, only with more ambition.

It is a delusion to believe in anything. 

I think I would rather be deluded.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Melvin said:


> Here is a quote from CPE Bach. (Criticizing the mental rigours and complexity of his daddy's musician's music)
> "A musician cannot move others unless he too is moved. He must of necessity feel all of the affects that he hopes to arouse in his audience, for the revealing of his own humour will stimulate a like humour in the listener."
> ~I hope this is not an apocryphal quote because now I am skeptical of ALL quotes unless I see primary sources!! Some quotes, I have learned, are only inferred, but never directly said!!! Still must learn German....


The statement is found in Bach's "Versuch über die wahre Art das Clavier zu spielen" (Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments). It appears as quoted on page 152 of William J. Mitchell's English translation. In the original German (page 122 of the German text): "Indem ein Musickus nicht anders rühren kan, er sey dann selbst gerührt; so muß er nothwendig sich in alle Affecten setzen können, welche er bey seinen Zuhörern erregen will; er giebt ihnen seine Empfindungen zu verstehen und bewegt sie solchergestallt am besten zur Mit-Empfindung."


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I read an article which claims that the story that young Brahms played in brothels and was teased by the prostitutes for his boyish good looks which tweaked him in adult life isn't actually true. In fact, his mother was very religious, and his father made enough of an income to where he wouldn't have to subject himself to this in order to get money. 

Can anyone confirm this?


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

In his "Johannes Brahms, Life and Letters" published by Oxford University Press, Styra Avins concludes that there is no evidence that Brahms ever played in brothels despite the unsubstantiated claims to the contrary by Max Kalbeck. Another Brahms biographer, Florence May, interviewed several people who had known Brahms and his family quite well. None had any knowledge of Brahms playing in such establishments. Brahms' father, on the other hand, is known to have played in "low-class sailors' dives" as a young man in order to make ends meet.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JeffD said:


> All those myths are wrong. Not just wrong, but wrong headed. In reality nobody is great. No reason to admire anyone. A hero is a normal average jamoke with a better myth. A winner is a loser with better luck. Love is exactly like an overdose of chocolate. We are exactly the same as lettuce, only with more ambition.
> 
> It is a delusion to believe in anything.
> 
> I think I would rather be deluded.


How do you know you aren't?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> How do you know you aren't?


I am convinced that TC is an illusion caused by sunspots.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> I am convinced that TC is an illusion caused by sunspots.


Does TC stand for Trumpean Climatology?


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Does TC stand for Trumpean Climatology?


Trumpean Climatology? Fake news!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Melvin said:


> ~I hope this is not an apocryphal quote because now I am skeptical of ALL quotes unless I see primary sources!! Some quotes, I have learned, are only inferred, but never directly said!!! Still must learn German....


"The problem with quotes on the internet is that many of them are misattributed."

--Abraham Lincoln



EdwardBast said:


> Actually, the Tchaikovsky suicide theory has been debunked. We know who make it up out of thin air. Tchaikovksy never tried to kill himself - or, at least, he never tried hard enough that anyone noticed.


I seem to recall reading that near the end of his disastrous marriage he tried to commit suicide by walking into an icy river, but succeeded only in getting a heavy cold. A fate arguably worse than death, so perhaps it put him right off further attempts.


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2017)

brianvds said:


> "A heavy cold: a fate arguably worse than death."


Edited, therefore now misattributed to brianvds.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

brianvds said:


> "The problem with quotes on the internet is that many of them are misattributed."
> 
> --Abraham Lincoln
> 
> I seem to recall reading that near the end of his disastrous marriage *he tried to commit suicide by walking into an icy river*, but succeeded only in getting a heavy cold. A fate arguably worse than death, so perhaps it put him right off further attempts.


That was what I was referring to when I said he never tried hard enough that anyone noticed.  Whatever his intention might have been in walking into that river, I think it absurd to call it attempted suicide. For that to apply, I think one has to do something a reasonable person over the age of ten could actually believe might result in death. Had someone walked by and asked "Hey Piotr, what are you doing standing in the river?" and he replied: "Committing suicide," he would likely have been greeted with guffaws.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> That was what I was referring to when I said he never tried hard enough that anyone noticed.  Whatever his intention might have been in walking into that river, I think it absurd to call it attempted suicide. For that to apply, I think one has to do something a reasonable person over the age of ten could actually believe might result in death. Had someone walked by and asked "Hey Piotr, what are you doing standing in the river?" and he replied: "Committing suicide," he would likely have been greeted with guffaws.


It is well known that he was a drama queen. So we can expect a whole series of fake suicide attempts, but nothing too serious. Except for that horror of a cold, of course.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

How about the A 440 conspiracy? Legend has it that none other than Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels is responsible for starting the trend of tuning to A 440 instead of A 432. Apparently, A 432 is supposed to have natural soothing and peaceful qualities, while A 440 is somehow unsettling. Goebbels supposedly changed the standard tuning pitch to A 440 to create discord and mental strife among the masses so that they would be more easily controlled by the government. Other nations later followed suit. 
Of course, I am not aware of any evidence that the Nazis even considered the idea of tuning higher than normal. The idea itself doesn't make sense, especially in 20th century Europe, where orchestras tuned to a wide variety of pitches ranging roughly from A 415 to A 470. There was no "standard" to begin with. The International Standards Organization was the only major body to endorse A 440, and that was without help from the Nazis. I have a hard time believing that the idea of using A 440 would have been spread around by the Nazis, and even if it had, it's even less likely that countries like Britain and the US. would have taken their advice.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Melvin said:


> I have a great history professor right now. (American history).
> 
> One of the things I love about his class is his debunking of commonly believed nationalistic myths.
> 
> ...


Without derailing your thread, I am urged to point out that these kinds of stories remind me all too much of the myths of Lenin we were force fed as children. And - to be honest - I have always found the parallel rather disconcerting.

Are American children still told the George Washington cherry tree story?


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

A great myth about Dmitri Shostakovich: he is said to have carried around a German shrapnel in his brain the last 34 years of his life. It is even said that this piece of metal in the brain's hearing area helped him getting musical hallucinations. Well, and let's not underestimate the Germanness of the _Granatsplitter_ having undoubtedly effect on the quality of the compositions...

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/07/10/arts/music-view-did-shostakovich-have-a-secret.html?pagewanted=all

Please, debunk it!


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> How do you know you aren't?


Don't tell me, whatever you do!


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

Kivimees said:


> Are American children still told the George Washington cherry tree story?


It's no longer told as _fact_, but I can guarantee that almost every American school kid has heard this story regardless.

It's a story that just won't go away. Everyone has heard it. Most people know it is none sense (some people are stupid though). It is just strange how certain myths like this seem to live on once they are put out there in the mass consciousness.

But.. American school children are still definitely told way too much about the Pilgrims (separatists) every thanksgiving... Arguably the least significant and least influential settlement group compared to all of the other early groups (Eg. Puritans, Quakers, Huguenots, and others.) 
Aside from the silly holiday, a harvest feast which is no new notion, they contributed essentially nothing of any cultural value or significance, yet continue to receive undue attention and mythical status. (They are often used to symbolize religious freedom, which is ironic because they were puritan separatists, stringently intolerant of any faith besides their own...)

And this is besides the point but it is well known that one major function of the American primary school system is to instill children with the belief that "democracy" is the most perfect and flawless system... Civic values, american system is the greatest, pilgrims, blah blah blah; this is what I remember from my early school days.
(Obviously not as overt as Soviet propaganda, but it is necessary to instill fundamental belief in the US system in order to stabilize it.)


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Myth:


> King George II was so moved by the "Hallelujah" chorus during the London premiere of Messiah that he rose to his feet and then everyone in attendance followed suit as not to be sitting when the king stood.


Debunked:


> There is no evidence King George II was even in attendance, and it is unlikely the newspaper writers that were in the audience would have overlooked mentioning a royal presence. The first reference to this story was a letter written 37 years after the fact.


From #5 in this list.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Does TC stand for Trumpean Climatology?


That Classical I believe .


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I can testify, first hand, that American children have been told that the George Washington cherry tree story is fake news for almost 70 years. Otherwise, they would never have heard it at all!

Myth: After the premiere of his Op. 130 string quartet, Beethoven was told that the Cavatina had been encored. He said, "Cattle! Asses! Only the fugue should have been encored!"

Truth: What Beethoven actually said was unprintable. :lol:


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Becca said:


> I am convinced that TC is an illusion caused by sunspots.


Or vice versa.

xxxxxxxxx


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Many (many) years ago I used to count out my coffee beans and grind them up in a mortar and pestle, because I read that LVB did so. Then I heard it was a myth and I bought a grinder. Recently I hear that no, it is true. 

I gave up and got a Keurig!


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

- Bach was not the first to use the thumb in keyboard playing, it was mainstream in the baroque era, albeit in a different manner from how it is used today.

- Bach's well-temperament is not the same as today's equal temperament. Well-temperament tried to retain the different characters of each key, owing to their intervals being slightly wider or closer, whereas equal temperament just divides the octave into 12 equal parts.

- The riots at the premier of the Rite of Spring were because of the choreography and the subject matter, not Stravinsky's music. Most of the reviews did not even mention the music.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

JeffD said:


> Many (many) years ago I used to count out my coffee beans and grind them up in a mortar and pestle, because I read that LVB did so. Then I heard it was a myth and I bought a grinder. Recently I hear that no, it is true.
> 
> I gave up and got a Keurig!


I can state with some confidence that Beethoven did not use a Keurig.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

gardibolt said:


> I can state with some confidence that Beethoven did not use a Keurig.


Then it was a spell check error when I saw: Werke Fur Mandoline und Keurig.


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## timothyjuddviolin (Nov 1, 2011)

A mug shot of Stravinsky and a story of his "illegal" arrangement of The Star Spangled Banner have led to many great stories. The reality is less exciting, but the arrangement is still incredibly fun to listen to.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

timothyjuddviolin said:


> A mug shot of Stravinsky and a story of his "illegal" arrangement of The Star Spangled Banner have led to many great stories. The reality is less exciting, but the arrangement is still incredibly fun to listen to.


No matter what you do to it, it still doesn't sound as good as the Russian anthem.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> There is still no certainty about Tchaikovsky's death. The (forced) suicide theory cannot be proven (nor can any other theory).


We are, however, pretty certain that he _is_ dead, or maybe he is hiding out somewhere with Elvis.


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> - The riots at the premier of the Rite of Spring were because of the choreography and the subject matter, not Stravinsky's music. Most of the reviews did not even mention the music.


It is true that the choreography by Vaslav Nijinsky and the costume and set designs of Nicholas Roerich were considered obscene and sexual. Also, there were other issues with the production which contributed to the chaos: The ballet dancers were missing their cues and were coming onto stage out of sync.

Most people today like to consider the near-riot of it's Paris premier on May 29th 1913 to have been caused purely by Stravinsky's modernist music. This fits with a popular notion of the radicalism of modern music! We would love to be able to say that Stravinsky's music was so radical to have sparked a riot by itself! But the reasons for the violence at the premier are much more complicated than just that, and are the combination of many different factors that night.

After it's disastrous premier, the ballet was shown with different choreography, and today it is performed almost only as the orchestral score, so it is easy to forget that it is a "ballet". There has been at least one attempt at a contemporary reconstruction of the original choreography and costumes. Too bad there isn't a video on youtube of this, I believe I have tried to find it but it is impossible to find. It would be very interesting to see!

But I'm sure the music did play some role, although there were many other contributing factors to the production that night. One audience member claimed he was being beaten and pounded from behind to the rhythm of the music! (sorry I can't cite this quote right now, it is from the LP notes of a record my friend owns which has several interviews of audience members.)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

There are also claims that the riot was planned by Diaghilev and Stravinsky, on the theory that there’s no such thing as bad publicity. In later years such riots were a sign of success in Paris. At one of Antheil’s premieres, cameras were ready to record the expected riot. After things quieted down, the director asked the audience to repeat the riot so they could get more angles and close-ups. The audience happily complied.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> There is still no certainty about Tchaikovsky's death. The (forced) suicide theory cannot be proven (nor can any other theory).


Actually, the forced suicide theory has been thoroughly debunked. There was never the slightest scrap of evidence for it. There is no evidence for any suicide theory of his death.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Melvin said:


> But I'm sure the music did play some role, although there were many other contributing factors to the production that night. One audience member claimed he was being beaten and pounded from behind to the rhythm of the music! (sorry I can't cite this quote right now, it is from the LP notes of a record my friend owns which has several interviews of audience members.)


The person who is the source of the tale of being pounded (on the head) by an excited man near to him was the dance critic Carl Van Vechten. It evidently was a quite a night: Saint-Saens stormed out, Debussy asked everybody to be quiet so he could hear the music, and Ravel is supposed to have kept shouting the word "Genius" over and over again. The London première, conducted by Ansermet, was, by contrast, orderly and a great success.


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## Harrowby Hall (Aug 8, 2017)

OK

How about Mozart's middle name was not _Amadeus_ but _Theophilus_? It was later latinised because it was the fashion.

I confess that I have not assiduously attempted to verify this.


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

Harrowby Hall said:


> How about Mozart's middle name was not _Amadeus_ but _Theophilus_? It was later latinised because it was the fashion.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart's_name

Yes this seems to be the case. He was baptized as "Joannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart."

Theophilus is greek for "lover of god/loved by god": "Gottlieb" is it's German equivalent and "Amadeus" is it's Latin.

At the time it wasn't uncommon for someone like an ultra-cool composer to go by different language versions of the same name. Joseph Haydn would sometimes go by Josephus (Latin) or Giuseppe (Italian). Ludwig van Beethoven has had works published as Luigi (Italian) and Louis (French).


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Harrowby Hall said:


> OK
> 
> How about Mozart's middle name was not _Amadeus_ but _Theophilus_? It was later latinised because it was the fashion.
> 
> I confess that I have not assiduously attempted to verify this.


I have seen a birth certificate or something with Theophilus. I think he was christened Gottleib. All three mean the same thing.


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