# Round Three: Tenor: Faust: "Salut" with di Stefano and Tucker



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

To close this contest out I bring you the requested famous rendition of Salut! demeur chasste et pure by di Stefano. I doubt if any of you would have paired him with Richard Tucker, but I challenge you to listen to it. It has no sobs, is sung with great sensitivity and absolutely incredible beauty. His high C is silvery perfection. Let me know what you think. Tucker was more than the name of the most famous prize in the opera world.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Tucker's rendition was nice, without any histrionics, as advertised. However, his French leaves something to be desired and Di Stefano is obviously extraordinary here. I don't think I can add any superlatives to describe the diminuendo on the high C that haven't already been said so I won't even try. If I was being nit-picky though, I've always thought it would have been better for him to enter a bit more piano after finishing that unbelievable note, almost still in reverence.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I don't think my ears hear what others hear. I like Tucker's voice in this but it is too prosaically used for this French piece - and too squarely sung. Di Stefano is better, but there are rough spots in his vocalization and in his _diminuendo_ he almost loses his _fil de voce_ by a breath. Well, that is nitpicking. He gets my vote anyway.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I can recall only one other time hearing Richard Tucker sing in French. That was in the big aria for Eleazar in Halevy's _La Juive, _in which Tucker, at the end of his career, led one of that opera's infrequent modern revivals (Caruso did the same in his late career). Tucker's French here is rather approximate, though not bad. His dark, somewhat tense voice isn't ideal for this, and I find him thoroughly respectable but not inspiring.

Di Stefano is endearing as always, his French is excellent, and he's on generally good stylistic behavior. I was on guard at first as he indulged his habit of scooping up to notes from below - he even does it in the middle of the word "presence"! - but this got less annoying as he proceeded. I'm going to buck what may be a consensus view concerning the admittedly well-executed diminuendo on the climactic high C. The concept is valid (though I prefer to hear the note attacked more gently, in _voix mixte,_ as Thill and Piccaver - and Caruso, by the way - do it), but the fade is so drawn out and the dynamic contrast so extreme that I found myself wondering just how long it was going to go on, which is not exactly what, if anything, I want be thinking about at that point, and certainly not what Faust would be concerning himself with. I don't like show-offery in music not designed for it; this is not Rossini. I must also say that the fortissimo blast with which the note begins is typical, wide-open Di Stefano overdrive, and it isn't a sound I've ever found pleasant, much less thrilling. Listening to his many recordings with Callas, whose loud high notes weren't very sweet either, I find I have to endure quite a few rough sounds while waiting for things to calm down.

Those reservations off my chest, I can say that Di Stefano presents a more pleasing sound and personality in this music than Tucker, and so gets my vote. However, I wouldn't rank him with Thill, Bjorling or Piccaver (or Caruso).

Here's Caruso in 1906, giving us excellent French, clean style, and a gorgeous high C despite his fear of the note:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I can recall only one other time hearing Richard Tucker sing in French. That was in the big aria for Eleazar in Halevy's _La Juive, _in which Tucker, at the end of his career, led one of that opera's infrequent modern revivals (Caruso did the same in his late career). Tucker's French here is rather approximate, though not horrible. His dark, somewhat tense voice isn't ideal for this, and I find him thoroughly respectable but not inspiring.
> 
> Di Stefano is endearing as always, his French is excellent, and he's on generally good stylistic behavior. I was on guard at first as he indulged his habit of scooping up to notes from below - he even does it in the middle of the word "presence"! - but this got less annoying as he proceeded. I'm going to buck what may be a consensus view concerning the admittedly well-executed diminuendo on the climactic high C. The concept is valid (though I prefer to hear the note attacked more gently, in _voix mixte,_ as Thill and Piccaver - and Caruso, by the way - do it), but the fade is so drawn out and the dynamic contrast so extreme that I found myself wondering just how long it was going to go on, which is not exactly what, if anything, I want be thinking about at that point, and certainly not what Faust would be concerning himself with. I don't like show-offery in music not designed for it; this is not Rossini. I must also say that the fortissimo blast with which the note begins is typical, wide-open Di Stefano overdrive, and it isn't a sound I've ever found pleasant, much less thrilling. Listening to his many recordings with Callas, whose loud high notes weren't very sweet either, I find I have to endure quite a few rough sounds while waiting for things to calm down.
> 
> ...


I'm so happy to see this motivated discussion. My failing is I am close to tone deaf with the languages which is why I can love Sutherland so I think. I found di Stefano a little rough around the edges vocally, but it could have been the recording. I consider Woodduck backing me up on this thought a good endorsement of my way of thinking. I loved the sound of Tucker here a lot and his high note was gorgeous and I think sung as written as most do it that way. Thanks for the detailed critique.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I pretty much agree with everything Woodduck has said.

I found the choice pretty easy here. Tucker's French is not at all good. He at least doesn't indulge in those awful sobs and aspirates that often marred his singing, but there's no poetry in his delivery. Like Alexander, it's all a bit four square.

Di Stefano, as so often, makes it easy to forgive his deficiencies by dint of his personality. He sings in very good French and his diction is as excellent as it always was in Italian. He does occasionally indulge his habit of attacking a note from below then scooping up to it, but it is not so pronounced here as it sometimes was. The diminuendo on the top C is incredible, but I'm with Woodduck in finding that it just means he hangs around on the note far too long, meaning that it actually ends up destroying the mood he has created rather than enhancing it. Other than that he finds a good deal more poetry in the aria than Tucker and he easily got my vote. That said I still prefer that 1939 studio recording by Bjørling that I posted in the other thread and that would be my ultimate choice. (I haven't listened to the Caruso performance yet).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Two post war tenors I did wonder about in this music are Kraus and Gedda, who were both well known for the role. Indeed it was one of the very few roles Kraus kept in his repertoire and he at one time commanded a higher fee for it than any other tenor, including Domingo. (I was told this by a friend of mine who was a staff producer at Covent Garden). Gedda was also well known for his Faust (as he was for the Berlioz version) and recorded the role twice under André Cluytens. Indeed the first recording was so successful that virtually the same team went back into the studio and recorded it again in stereo just a few years later. This recording is often considered a top choice for the opera.

Maybe a Kraus/Gedda competition?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I pretty much agree with everything Woodduck has said.
> 
> I found the choice pretty easy here. Tucker's French is not at all good. He at least doesn't indulge in those awful sobs and aspirates that often marred his singing, but there's no poetry in his delivery. Like Alexander, it's all a bit four square.
> 
> Di Stefano, as so often, makes it easy to forgive his deficiencies by dint of his personality. He sings in very good French and his diction is as excellent as it always was in Italian. He does occasionally indulge his habit of attacking a note from below then scooping up to it, but it is not so pronounced here as it sometimes was. The diminuendo on the top C is incredible, but I'm with Woodduck in finding that it just means he hangs around on the note far too long, meaning that it actually ends up destroying the mood he has created rather than enhancing it. Other than that he finds a good deal more poetry in the aria than Tucker and he easily got my vote. That said I still prefer that 1939 studio recording by Bjørling that I posted in the other thread and that would be my ultimate choice. (I haven't listened to the Caruso performance yet).


I thought of posting the Caruso. Because of the recording techniques his C5 comes off like a big note in the middle of his voice rather than a brilliant high note sound that you would expect. Still it was wonderful rendition.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Two post war tenors I did wonder about in this music are Kraus and Gedda, who were both well known for the role. Indeed it was one of the very few roles Kraus kept in his repertoire and he at one time commanded a higher fee for it than any other tenor, including Domingo. (I was told this by a friend of mine who was a staff producer at Covent Garden). Gedda was also well known for his Faust (as he was for the Berlioz version) and recorded the role twice under André Cluytens. Indeed the first recording was so successful that virtually the same team went back into the studio and recorded it again in stereo just a few years later. This recording is often considered a top choice for the opera.
> 
> Maybe a Kraus/Gedda competition?


Let's try it and see if it makes the competion too bulky. Sounds like a good idea. I think for the last round instead of relisting all the videos I will just post a poll with the 4 previous contest winners. Does that sound okay? It will make the contest less intimidating and bulky I think and you will have heard the selections already.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The very first aria I ever heard was Richard Tucker doing "Che gelida manina" and was immediately sold on the world of opera.
And once again he does a wonderful job with his masterful voice, but lacking in his interpretation in this particular aria is the sensitivity that di Stefano is able to impart with such incredible beauty in that final note that I am instantly carried away by it.
Pippo gets my vote.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I thought of posting the Caruso. Because of the recording techniques his C5 comes off like a big note in the middle of his voice rather than a brilliant high note sound that you would expect. Still it was wonderful rendition.


That high C isn't supposed to be brilliant. Caruso sings it in what's called _voix mixte,_ "mixed voice," a blend of "chest" and "head" register, which is how we presume the tenors of Gounod's day would have sung it and how Thill and Piccaver do it. Caruso had a beautiful _voix mixte_ that can be heard in a number of his recordings. To me it's one of the finest - and now, unfortunately, rarest - graces of tenor singing, and is far and away the most appropriate way to climax this particular aria.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> That high C isn't supposed to be brilliant. Caruso sings it in what's called _voix mixte,_ "mixed voice," a blend of "chest" and "head" register, which is how we presume the tenors of Gounod's day would have sung it and how Thill and Piccaver do it. Caruso had a beautiful _voix mixte_ that can be heard in a number of his recordings. To me it's one of the finest - and now, unfortunately, rarest - graces of tenor singing, and is far and away the most appropriate way to climax this particular aria.


I've listened to the Caruso now and, as Woodduck says, it really is glorious.

I also came across this little compilation.






I'd say Caruso and Thill manage the phrase best but I'd say the trajectory from best to worst isn't necessarily a linear one and Alagna, say, manages it rather better than some of the earlier ones, if not quite in the Caruso/Thill class.

Of course one shouldn't judge the singing of an aria on the strength of just one phrase, and I'd be tempted to add that one shouldn't judge a singer in a role on the strength of just one aria.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I've listened to the Caruso now and, as Woodduck says, it really is glorious.
> 
> I also came across this little compilation.
> 
> ...


The compiler was careless about his sources (or pitch-deaf) and found a Caruso transfer pitched in A, making the climactic note a C#. I'm not sure whether Caruso ever recorded a high C#/Db, but he sure as shootin' didn't record one here. Interesting to hear that even transposing the aria down a half step to G, making the high note a B, doesn't persuade some of these tenors not to belt it out. They may belt quite well, but still...


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I think of all the modern tenors, Calleja does a very lovely job.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> I think of all the modern tenors, Calleja does a very lovely job.


Very nice, as "chaste" and "pure" as can be (maybe too chaste and pure to suggest a guy who ends up giving a girl a baby she doesn't want). His rendering of the high C pleases me; the diminuendo doesn't have you looking at a stopwatch expecting a world record the way Di Stefano's does. But the most interesting thing to me is the complete absence of portamento, as if he were singing Bach (as Bach is sung "authentically" today, be it noted) or playing an instrument incapable of bending pitch. This is at the opposite extreme from Piccaver, who frequently "glisses" between notes in a way that absolutely no one would do now.






It raises its own question of authenticity, and it represents yet another element of the vocal art that we seem to have learned to live without.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Very nice, as "chaste" and "pure" as can be (maybe too chaste and pure to suggest a guy who ends up giving a girl a baby she doesn't want). His rendering of the high C pleases me; the diminuendo doesn't have you looking at a stopwatch expecting a world record the way Di Stefano's does. But the most interesting thing to me is the complete absence of portamento, as if he were singing Bach (as Bach is sung "authentically" today, be it noted) or playing an instrument incapable of bending pitch. This is at the opposite extreme from Piccaver, who frequently "glisses" between notes in a way that absolutely no one would do now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed it does. I like portamento, but it has to be done right. Callas of course was the mistress of portamento and it's interesting to note that she used it far more chastely in the music of Cherubini and Gluck than she did in Romantic opera. Often composers of the Romantic school will indicate a portamento, so surely it is wrong to ignore it.

That said, as I remember Scotto once pointing out, it is a largely misunderstood art. Scotto even suggested that if a singer did not know how to apply it properly, then they would be better advised to ignore it as it too easily descends into just slithering between the notes.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Indeed it does. I like portamento, but it has to be done right. Callas of course was the mistress of portamento and it's interesting to note that she used it far more chastely in the music of Cherubini and Gluck than she did in Romantic opera. Often composers of the Romantic school will indicate a portamento, so surely it is wrong to ignore it.
> 
> That said, as I remember Scotto once pointing out, it is a largely misunderstood art. Scotto even suggested that if a singer did not know how to apply it properly, then they would be better advised to ignore it as it too easily descends into just slithering between the notes.


Scotto makes a good point. Sliding can be mere sloppiness, like scooping (which can also be legitimate at times). Even when portamento was still a standard interpretive device singers differed greatly in their use of it. My impression is that the French school used it less than others, so maybe Piccaver is a bit excessive (although I loved what he does on first hearing, and none of the other tenors here have changed my mind). Callas was a modern singer, generally rather sparing but intensely purposeful and precise in her use of portamento, and represents for me a good lesson for contemporary singers who may not feel comfortable going back to the styles of earlier times.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Scotto makes a good point. Sliding can be mere sloppiness, like scooping (which can also be legitimate at times). Even when portamento was still a standard interpretive device singers differed greatly in their use of it. My impression is that the French school used it less than others, so maybe Piccaver is a bit excessive (although I loved what he does on first hearing, and none of the other tenors here have changed my mind). Callas was a modern singer, generally rather sparing but intensely purposeful and precise in her use of portamento, and represents for me a good lesson for contemporary singers who may not feel comfortable going back to the styles of earlier times.


Your comment on the lack of _portamento_ in Calleja's aria drove me to listen again and it's amazing that it wasn't noticeable until you mentioned it. Thanks for pointing it out! :tiphat:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> I think of all the modern tenors, Calleja does a very lovely job.


He came here early in his US career and was absolutely wonderful!!! Another tenor who sang here who blew everyone away was Antonello Palombi. He was almost a dramatic tenor. I don't know if he sang in French but he is plain looking but wonderful. He is built like the perfect singing machine with no neck whatsoever, a dinner plate face and barrel chest.. Did anyone else hear him sing live?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> He came here early in his US career and was absolutely wonderful!!! Another tenor who sang here who blew everyone away was Antonello Palombi. He was almost a dramatic tenor. I don't know if he sang in French but he is plain looking but wonderful. He is built like the perfect singing machine with no neck whatsoever, a dinner plate face and barrel chest.. Did anyone else hear him sing live?


I have not heard him at all. As far as I know he hasn't sung in San Francisco.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

So I just have to add Shicoff to the list because I believe he is also worthy.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> So I just have to add Shicoff to the list because I believe he is also worthy.


I agree. I find him a very passionate singer.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I've listened to the Caruso now and, as Woodduck says, it really is glorious.
> 
> I also came across this little compilation.
> 
> ...


Tsaraslondon:
This was a gift to me. I cannot tell you how much I, a tenor lover, appreciate it. 
This is the way I discovered Magda Olivero with 15 sopranos doing Vissi d'arte and when I came to hers, (a person I had never heard of) I flipped my lid.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

MAS said:


> I have not heard him at all. As far as I know he hasn't sung in San Francisco.


Wasn't it Palombi who jumped onto the stage from his orchestra seat and took over when Alagna walked off in anger?
Am I getting this story right?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Wasn't it Palombi who jumped onto the stage from his orchestra seat and took over when Alagna walked off in anger?
> Am I getting this story right?


https://www.playbill.com/article/roberto-alagna-storms-offstage-of-la-scalas-aida. He works mostly in Italy but Seattle audiences have gone mad for him when he performed here.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> https://www.playbill.com/article/roberto-alagna-storms-offstage-of-la-scalas-aida. He works mostly in Italy but Seattle audiences have gone mad for him when he performed here.


So what I want to know is, did Alagna come back from his hissy fit and do the rest of the run or not?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> So what I want to know is, did Alagna come back from his hissy fit and do the rest of the run or not?


https://www.playbill.com/article/la...ing-walkout-suits-and-countersuits-threatened La Scala fired him. The great Marton walked out of a performance because people laughed at a translation in the supra titles... but she was Hungarian and a diva, you know. I think they had to skip the supra titles for the rest of the run.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

La Scala has always been known for its vocal claques and warring factions. Callas had to deal with quite a lot during her time there, but dealt with it rather differently.

When she returned to La Scala after the scandal of the Rome walkout, the management feared an incident so much that they had plain clothes police positioned around the theatre. The opera had been re-directed so that Callas was at all times surrounded by minders in costume. In the event there were no violent demonstrations but the audience greeted her in stoney silence, loudly applauding all her colleagues but ignoring her. By the time of the Act I finale in which Anna is accused of adultery by Enrico, Callas had had just about as much as she could take. Pushing the minders away she strode down to the footlights, hurling out the lines "Giudice ad Anna! Giudice ad Anna!" directly at the audience, then launching into the stretta with incredible vehemence and intensity. The audience went wild, screaming their approval at the end of the act and from then on she held them in the palm of her hand. She finished to a rapturous reception and was greeted by hordes of adoring fans as she left the theatre that night.

Unfortunately, when she and Meneghini returned home it was to find the walls of their villa daubed with excrement and insulting slogans. Lord knows what she would have had to deal with had twitter been around in those days.

This is not the only instance of Callas managing to turn a hostile audience into a favourable one.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> https://www.playbill.com/article/la...ing-walkout-suits-and-countersuits-threatened La Scala fired him. The great Marton walked out of a performance because people laughed at a translation in the supra titles... but she was Hungarian and a diva, you know. I think they had to skip the supra titles for the rest of the run.


Madame Marton once angrily addressed the San Francisco Opera audience during a performance of *La Gioconda * for the same reason. She thought laughing was disrespectful while she was singing.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Madame Marton once angrily addressed the San Francisco Opera audience during a performance of *La Gioconda * for the same reason. She thought laughing was disrespectful while she was singing.


I would have loved to have heard her but I think she could have been an unpleasant diva.


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