# La Monte Young: The Well-Tuned Piano



## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

La Monte Young's 'The Well-Tuned Piano' is currently on the 77th tier of the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works.

Wikipedia article
The Guardian article

According to The Guardian, this piece will leave you "entranced" and will "change your sensory perceptions of music", as well as being "one of the great acheivements of 20th century music".
I first became fascinated by this 5+ hour masterpiece after seeing it selling on Amazon for thousands of pounds and seeing the ecstatic reviews. I listened to the entire piece myself, and I've never heard anything quite like it.
*
What do you think of the piece? Have you heard the whole thing? How did you discover it?*

Listen to it here.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Well-done! You're on a roll!


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I think it is too long, self indulgently long. 

I also think that it’s wrong of La Monte Young to make it so difficult for people to give concert performances, apparently he charges absurdly high fees for the right to play it in public, that’s one reason why you never see it on a programme. 

I don’t believe it’s as unique as soni suggests in the opening post, I think there are other Fluxus pieces which are in the same spirit - ASLSP for example.

Does anyone know anything about it musically? Does it use non standard tuning? Is there a structure?


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

science said:


> Well-done! You're on a roll!


I thought he was you in disguise.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> I thought he was you in disguise.


Me?

Poor soni.

But I think you might've mixed me up with someone else....


----------



## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> I think it is too long, self indulgently long.
> 
> I also think that it's wrong of La Monte Young to make it so difficult for people to give concert performances, apparently he charges absurdly high fees for the right to play it in public, that's one reason why you never see it on a programme.
> 
> ...


I love both this and Organ2/ASLSP, but the pieces aren't in the same category - the only other similar work I'm aware of is November by Dennis Johnson, but personally I'm not too interested in that piece, despite some of its nice sounds.

The non-standard tuning is precisely the appeal of the music. The thing that makes The Well-Tuned Piano so unique is the beautiful harmonies created by the distinctive tuning, which is based on combinations of the perfect fifth and the harmonic seventh. This is different to the standard tuning, which is based on the perfect fifth and major third, but detuned to make all intervals equally spaced apart. La Monte Young does not perform this detuning, and his intervals have a fascinating, beautiful sound, especially the harmonic seventh which is somewhere inbetween the major and minor seventh; La Monte Young's extensive use of it bizarrely makes the piano sound something like a harpsichord, but much more beautiful. A major highlight of the piece is its impressive arpeggios, which due to sonic effects create combination tones that are not actually being played, allowing the piano to have a rather orchestral sound. Near the end of the piece the effect is so strong that a sound of a recorder is audible, playing a sonority that was not being played on the piano. Another fascinating thing is that the smallest interval available is about 1/3 the size of a semitone, and has a very distictive sound, and is far better than a quarter-tone. La Monte Young uses it to great effect about an hour into the piece when he is introducing themes related to the "Magic Chord".

An explanation of some of the music theory of the piece is available on YouTube.


----------



## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> I think it is too long, self indulgently long.
> 
> I also think that it's wrong of La Monte Young to make it so difficult for people to give concert performances, apparently he charges absurdly high fees for the right to play it in public, that's one reason why you never see it on a programme.
> 
> ...


I love both this and Organ2/ASLSP, but the pieces aren't in the same category - the only other similar work I'm aware of is November by Dennis Johnson, but personally I'm not too interested in that piece, despite some of its nice sounds.

The non-standard tuning is precisely the appeal of the music. The thing that makes The Well-Tuned Piano so unique is the beautiful harmonies created by the distinctive tuning, which is based on combinations of the perfect fifth and the harmonic seventh. This is different to the standard tuning, which is based on the perfect fifth and major third, but detuned to make all intervals equally spaced apart. La Monte Young does not perform this detuning, and his intervals have a fascinating, beautiful sound, especially the harmonic seventh which is somewhere inbetween the major and minor seventh; La Monte Young's extensive use of it bizarrely makes the piano sound something like a harpsichord, but much more beautiful. A major highlight of the piece is its impressive arpeggios, which due to sonic effects create combination tones that are not actually being played, allowing the piano to have a rather orchestral sound. Near the end of the piece the effect is so strong that a sound of a recorder is audible, playing a sonority that was not being played on the piano. Another fascinating thing is that the smallest interval available is about 1/3 the size of a semitone, and has a very distictive sound, and is far better than a quarter-tone. La Monte Young uses it to great effect about an hour into the piece when he is introducing themes related to the "Magic Chord".

An explanation of some of the music theory of the piece is available on YouTube.

EDIT: just realised I accidentally double posted :/


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

OK, that's an inspiring reply.

_The theme of dawn of eternal time
The Magic Chord
The Magic Harmonic Rain-forest Chord
Sunlight filtering through the leaves
The Lost Ancestral Lake Region
The Elysian Fields_

Unfortunately I don't have the booklet to the 1987 recording, so I don't know if he discusses the music. These names, I assume they're La Monte Young's names, are interesting.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Since it's OOP, get Terry Riley's _The Harp of New Albion_ instead.


----------



## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> Since it's OOP, get Terry Riley's _The Harp of New Albion_ instead.


I tried to listen to that, just can't get myself to like it for some reason.


----------



## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Since it's OOP, get Terry Riley's _The Harp of New Albion_ instead.


The Well-Tuned Piano DVD (1987) is now available at Mela Foundation online store.
http://www.melafoundation.org/store.html
(scroll down to "Video" section.)

It's $89, much cheaper than $700 ~ >£1K used CD. A 52-page booklet is included. I listen to audio files converted from the DVD.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

The Guardian says " It is one of the great achievements of 20th-century music and to hear a performance must be one of the most remarkable and life-changing things you could ever hope to do as a listener."

Sounds like quackery to me personally. But then I couldn't make it through the 6 hours of it, and only sampled bits of it.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> The Guardian says " It is one of the great achievements of 20th-century music and to hear a performance must be one of the most remarkable and life-changing things you could ever hope to do as a listener."
> 
> Sounds like quackery to me personally. But then I couldn't make it through the 6 hours of it, and only sampled bits of it.


The tuning makes a strange, ethereal, somehow captivating sound, and the piece intentionally declines to do anything that will distract from that, which is why it develops so slowly (if development is the right word). It's a sort of Feldmanesque minimalism - or at least it seemed like that to me for as long as my interest held out. I'm never going to know how it might be "life-changing," since I'm so busy changing my life that I haven't got 6 hours to spare.

"Music criticism" like that is certainly quackery. If music has something to offer, it will do it better without having to live up to meaningless hype. But I can't help feeling that anything that makes me go 6 hours without emptying my bladder is a bit quacky too.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Journalists often say things like “remarkable life changing” when they have to write articles about these unfeasibly long New York pieces, whether La Monte Young or Morton Feldman or John Cage. I remember coming across some extraordinary reviews of the Feldman second quartet, where they talked of the music producing hallucinations. I wouldn’t take it too seriously. 

Having said that, I’ve never met anyone who has listened to one of these long pieces uninterrupted. My own experience (with Feldman) is that they don’t work so well in concert because of the distractions - other people fidgeting etc. But they don’t work so well at home either for me . . .


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It's a sort of Feldmanesque minimalism - or at least it seemed like that to me for as long as my interest held out.


I think this is the daddy of New York minimilasm, it's probably more just to say that Feldman is a sort of La Mont Young-esque Minimalism.

The big difference may be that The Well Tuned Piano is composed to comply with a rigorous plan. It seems to be the systematic exploration of piano harmonies in this tuning. While Feldman, if he's to be taken at his word, has no plan, he just composed intuitively.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

soni said:


> I tried to listen to that, just can't get myself to like it for some reason.


I don't "like it" either. Riley's _Sri Camel_ uses similar tunings, only played on electric organ.

Don't forget that Young was interested in harmonics and overtones, and this piece is full of them. Stockhausen's "Stimmung" (tuning) was similarly concerned.

From WIK, we read: 
According to Kyle Gann, when listening to The Well-Tuned Piano "you spend the first four hours becoming familiar with the cozy septimal minor third, the expansive septimal major third, and by the fifth hour you can hardly remember that intervals had ever been any other sizes."

This implies that this music is for long, deep contemplation of the intervals. I completely understand and accept this, and have no criticism of it.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Does anyone know anything about it musically? Does it use non standard tuning? Is there a structure?


That's all pretty much covered in the Wikipedia article. No, it's not your "grandpa Gregory's drone."

Other than listening to the piece live, which would be the best scenario, or from the designated high fidelity source (CD or DVD) on a good hi-fi system (rather than on-line files thru ear-buds), I don't see how it can be experienced accurately, as the artist intended, and as sound itself demands it must be, well enough to give a _credible_ assessment of its 'unique qualities' or its 'right to exist as art.'

If someone is well-read in intonation matters, such as the info contained in the _Just Intonation Primer_ mentioned in the website, the premise and aesthetic purpose of _The Well-Tuned Piano_ as well as La Monte Young's artistic intentions, will make more sense; otherwise, these kinds of uninformed questions verge on being, shall we say, counter-productive to _The Well-Tuned Piano's _acceptance as valid music, and Young's acceptance as a valid artist.

I am reminded of the adage "You must go to art rather than waiting for it to come to you."


----------



## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> I don't "like it" either. Riley's _Sri Camel_ uses similar tunings, only played on electric organ.
> 
> Don't forget that Young was interested in harmonics and overtones, and this piece is full of them. Stockhausen's "Stimmung" (tuning) was similarly concerned.
> 
> ...


I was talking about Terry Riley's Harp of New Albion. I do most definitely like The Well-Tuned Piano


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I have heard some of the Well-Tuned Piano but have not sat through hours of it. It certainly involves some beguiling sounds and he seems to do some interesting things with them ... but I also am turned off by the hype about life changing experiences. I guess in the right mood and probably on a balmy day with the sun shining I could give it a go. But then I would want a good book to go with it and I guess that defeats the purpose?


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

This is something I see all the time. People, including me, have formed opinions about extreme long form music, whether it be Feldman or Young or Cage or Oliveros or whatever. And hardly anyone, if anyone at all, has experienced the whole thing, least of all in one sitting. These composers are writing music which no-one, not even their biggest fans, ever listens to.

I don't know what conclusion to draw from that.


----------



## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> This is something I see all the time. People, including me, have formed opinions about extreme long form music, whether it be Feldman or Young or Cage or Oliveros or whatever. And hardly anyone, if anyone at all, has experienced the whole thing, least of all in one sitting. These composers are writing music which no-one, not even their biggest fans, ever listens to.
> 
> I don't know what conclusion to draw from that.


I'm pretty sure all Feldman fans have listened to at least some of his long pieces


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

soni said:


> I'm pretty sure all Feldman fans have listened to at least some of his long pieces


Well I have listened to the medium pieces -- Triadic Memories for example. But I've never gone over the three hour mark as far as I remember.


----------



## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Well I have listened to the medium pieces -- Triadic Memories for example. But I've never gone over the three hour mark as far as I remember.


Fair enough. For Philip Guston is highly recommended - I was lucky enough to go to a live concert of this, which blew my mind. This remains my favourite Feldman piece - it's the only one of his pieces (I've heard) that I think is a true masterwork (e.g. Triadic Memories is really nice, but it wouldn't be a great loss to me if it disappeared).

The funny thing about For Philip Guston is that it feels shorter than Feldman's other work, since it actually doesn't take a lot of work to listen to the whole thing. I once started listening to it on YouTube, and I found I couldn't stop, so I spent the whole of the day listening to the piece


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I have listened to the whole of a few long Feldman pieces (including For Philip Guston - twice!) in one sitting (at home, though, so not without distractions) and enjoyed the experience. Such experiences are obviously different to listening to a recording of a whole long opera (say, Wagner) - but not as different as I expected. Listening (as "pure music" rather than a drama) to a long opera that I am unfamiliar with fills my head with music and sounds that stay with me for quite a while. I found the same happening with long Feldman pieces. The trouble is I am not sure I know what "getting to know" such pieces would be like ... or even how it might happen. Finding out would require a big investment in time. I suppose I could spend a couple of weeks with a long piece on repeat - sometimes zoning in but mostly getting on with my life - and see what happens. 

I do find something in Feldman's music rewarding so I do have some motivation. I know far less of La Monte Young's work.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

soni said:


> Fair enough. For Philip Guston is highly recommended - I was lucky enough to go to a live concert of this, which blew my mind. This remains my favourite Feldman piece - it's the only one of his pieces (I've heard) that I think is a true masterwork (e.g. Triadic Memories is really nice, but it wouldn't be a great loss to me if it disappeared).
> 
> The funny thing about For Philip Guston is that it feels shorter than Feldman's other work, since it actually doesn't take a lot of work to listen to the whole thing. I once started listening to it on YouTube, and I found I couldn't stop, so I spent the whole of the day listening to the piece


The one I like most is piano, violin, viola, cello. It's quite short.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

soni said:


> I was talking about Terry Riley's Harp of New Albion. I do most definitely like The Well-Tuned Piano


That's what I was talking about as well. I like both.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> I have heard some of the Well-Tuned Piano but have not sat through hours of it. It certainly involves some beguiling sounds and he seems to do some interesting things with them ... but I also am turned off by the hype about life changing experiences. I guess in the right mood and probably on a balmy day with the sun shining I could give it a go. But then I would want a good book to go with it and I guess that defeats the purpose?


This post still works if we substitute "Wagner" for Young:

I have heard some of _The Ring _but have not sat through hours of it. It certainly involves some beguiling sounds and he seems to do some interesting things with them ... but I also am turned off by the hype about life changing experiences. I guess in the right mood and probably on a balmy day with the sun shining I could give it a go. But then I would want a good book to go with it and I guess that defeats the purpose? :lol:


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> This post still works if we substitute "Wagner" for Young:
> 
> I have heard some of _The Ring _but have not sat through hours of it. It certainly involves some beguiling sounds and he seems to do some interesting things with them ... but I also am turned off by the hype about life changing experiences. I guess in the right mood and probably on a balmy day with the sun shining I could give it a go. But then I would want a good book to go with it and I guess that defeats the purpose? :lol:


Thanks for the "like," enthusiast, but the notification of your 'like' gave me a cold chill. 
I've been expecting warnings or infractions (or even permanent banning) lately, due to the harsh backlash on the Wagner issue, as well as a vaguely threatening private message "warning" from one of our members.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It's just that I did have Wagner in mind at the same time! I love Wagner, BTW.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Comparing Young, or Feldman, with Wagner is a bit weird. What do they have in common other than having written long pieces? 

Some of us who can get through a four-hour opera couldn't manage four hours of Feldman or Young. Others could do the opposite. Some could do both: completely different experiences, each in its own proper time.

A rose is a rose is a rose - unless one is the rose of Sharon, one is Norwegian rosemaling, and one is Roseanne Barr. 

OK, maybe that's one rose too many.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

But I am merely comparing the investment (focused time etc). Obviously the music is different. And, now I know the music of the mature Wagner operas but not of long Feldman or La Monte Young pieces, I can't take the comparison any further. The experience of giving five hours of a day to a piece of music and having that music and its moods in your head for hours after is not dissimilar.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

soni said:


> I'm pretty sure all Feldman fans have listened to at least some of his long pieces


Yes, this is easily accomplished at home with Feldman's String Quartet No. 2, which is available on a MODE DVD which is over six hours long.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> But I am merely comparing the investment (focused time etc). Obviously the music is different. And, now I know the music of the mature Wagner operas but not of long Feldman or La Monte Young pieces, I can't take the comparison any further. The experience of giving five hours of a day to a piece of music and having that music and its moods in your head for hours after is not dissimilar.


Is this an observation or a complaint?


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> I have heard some of the Well-Tuned Piano but have not sat through hours of it. It certainly involves some beguiling sounds and he seems to do some interesting things with them ... but I also am turned off by the hype about life changing experiences. I guess in the right mood and probably on a balmy day with the sun shining I could give it a go. But then I would want a good book to go with it and I guess that defeats the purpose?


It sounds like you're using the review as a bludgeon.

As far as listening to such a long piece while reading a book, I have speakers by my toilet, and this helps immensely.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Well I have listened to the medium pieces -- Triadic Memories for example. But I've never gone over the three hour mark as far as I remember.


They should issue an edited version called "The Well-Tuned Piano Lite." Great sounding, less filling.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> I have listened to the whole of a few long Feldman pieces (including For Philip Guston - twice!) in one sitting (at home, though, so not without distractions) and enjoyed the experience. Such experiences are obviously different to listening to a recording of a whole long opera (say, Wagner) - but not as different as I expected. Listening (as "pure music" rather than a drama) to a long opera that I am unfamiliar with fills my head with music and sounds that stay with me for quite a while. I found the same happening with long Feldman pieces. The trouble is I am not sure I know what "getting to know" such pieces would be like ... or even how it might happen. Finding out would require a big investment in time. I suppose I could spend a couple of weeks with a long piece on repeat - sometimes zoning in but mostly getting on with my life - and see what happens.
> 
> I do find something in Feldman's music rewarding so I do have some motivation. I know far less of La Monte Young's work.


If you can't listen to long pieces, maybe you could attempt to at least acknowledge and appreciate the _idea_ of length as an artistic statement.

For example, what are the implications of making such a long artwork? How does this distinguish itself from our usual experience of time in music? ...and things like that.

At the very least, allow this art to exist as a viable form, for whomever wishes to consume it. Don't discourage it, or try to prohibit its value to others. The key word here is tolerance. Respect all art's right to exist, even if you don't like it.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> If you can't listen to long pieces, maybe you could attempt to at least acknowledge and appreciate the _idea_ of length as an artistic statement.
> 
> For example, what are the implications of making such a long artwork? How does this distinguish itself from our usual experience of time in music? ...and things like that.
> 
> At the very least, allow this art to exist as a viable form, for whomever wishes to consume it. Don't discourage it, or try to prohibit its value to others. The key word here is tolerance. Respect all art's right to exist, even if you don't like it.


And how does it distinguish itself from our usual experience of time in music exactly?


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

One thing I’d like to know about Well Tuned Piano is this. 

How did La Monte Young expect you to listen to it? 

Are you supposed to sit in your seat for the duration, like you would for a Beethoven sonata?

Or are you encouraged to lie on the floor, have a drink, chat with friends, as the music creates an ambience and works its magic?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^ This is my question too. I have no problem with long operas, oratorios, symphonies, or films, as long as I like the work in question. They're generally divided into parts (movements, acts, episodes), so you don't have to worry about peeing your pants (I'm not that old yet but the day is coming) or, probably, falling asleep (don't ask if I'm that old).

Millionrainbows raises the question of length. Long works may be long for different reasons. Why is _The well-tuned Piano _five hours long? Would it fail to make its point at four hours? Three? Two? One? I've gotten through about an hour of something by Feldman, and I think I got the benefit of the kind of meditative experience he was offering and felt that any more of it would not open any new vistas.

I suspect that only those who've made it through to the end of TWTP can tell us the answer, if there is one.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There is another element which I think is an interesting aspect of all of this. Watching a musician play for six hours is a bit like watching a circus act, where someone shows extraordinary stamina and endurance. Half way through you must begin to notice the pain on the pianist's face.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> And how does it distinguish itself from our usual experience of time in music exactly?


That's your job, Mandryka; I won't do your work for you. You might want to refer to my blog "New Conceptions of Musical Time..."

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/millionrainbows/1521-new-conceptions-musical-time.html


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> One thing I'd like to know about Well Tuned Piano is this.
> 
> How did La Monte Young expect you to listen to it?
> 
> ...


He was a hippie, so probably the latter. I thought you knew all about hippies from your review of _Stimmung._


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> ^^^ This is my question too. I have no problem with long operas, oratorios, symphonies, or films, as long as I like the work in question. They're generally divided into parts (movements, acts, episodes), so you don't have to worry about peeing your pants (I'm not that old yet but the day is coming) or, probably, falling asleep (don't ask if I'm that old).


Oh, I freely admit that I've peed myself more than once, just this year so far.



> Millionrainbows raises the question of length. Long works may be long for different reasons. Why is _The well-tuned Piano _five hours long? Would it fail to make its point at four hours? Three? Two? One? I've gotten through about an hour of something by Feldman, and I think I got the benefit of the kind of meditative experience he was offering and felt that any more of it would not open any new vistas. I suspect that only those who've made it through to the end of TWTP can tell us the answer, if there is one.


In my experience, it concentrates on certain intervals for periods of time, so that the listener can fully "grok" them in a very basic way. He moves on through different intervals in this way.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> That's your job, Mandryka; I won't do your work for you. You might want to refer to my blog "New Conceptions of Musical Time..."
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/millionrainbows/1521-new-conceptions-musical-time.html


I'd check it out, but I'm still struggling with the old conceptions.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> I'd check it out, but I'm still struggling with the old conceptions.


Ha ha! That's okay, as long as you can count to four! :lol:


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Too long and boring for active listening and gradually becomes too annoying in sound to serve as background/ambient music. 
Thank god for synthesizers.


----------



## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> I think it is too long, self indulgently long.
> 
> I also think that it's wrong of La Monte Young to make it so difficult for people to give concert performances, apparently he charges absurdly high fees for the right to play it in public, that's one reason why you never see it on a programme.
> 
> ...


The Wikipedia article referenced in the OP dissects the tuning quite thoroughly. There's also a short section on the form of the work, but it does refer the reader to the liner notes for a better description).

Musically, there are several tidbits about THAT scattered throughout the Wikepedia entry, most notably in the Reviews section.

". . . something extraordinary, creating unexplored regions of sound"

So, while 6 hours may seem long, it's not really a record for a single 'work'. *Wagner's Ring Cycle* of four operas comes to mind, although the premiere broke it up into four nights in 1876, but if you were to find a production that ran it straight through _without intermissions_, you could be be out by midnight if it started at 9 AM. Almost 15 hours long by my reckoning, or *14 hours 43 minutes*. Well, depending on the pacing. With twelve 15-minute long intermissions, you can add another 3 hours, bringing most people beyond their usual bedtimes.

https://www.operanorth.co.uk/the-ri...m9QLuZkcO_PC9yDZWK9_vbmQyXmdom5waAsJAEALw_wcB

Or there's Bach's *WTC*, by comparison can be heard in *4 hours 40 minutes*.

But those are the really well known works.

Max Richter's *Sleep* is 8 hours long.

And Morton Feldman's *String Quartet No. 2* is 6 hours long

Rivalling The Well Tuned Piano is Michael Finnissy's *The History of Photography in Sound*, 11 thematically linked sections lasting a total of *five-and-a-half hours* in full.

But *The Well Tuned Piano* is basically in seven major sections, according to the composer.

The Opening Chord (00:00:00-00:21:47)
The Magic Chord (00:21:47-01:02:29)
The Magic Opening Chord (01:02:29-1:23:54)
The Magic Harmonic Rainforest Chord (1:23:54-03:05:31)
The Romantic Chord (03:05:31-04:01:25)
The Elysian Fields (04:01:25-04:59:41)
The Ending (04:59:41-05:01:22)

Surely one or even two intermissions could by squeezed in, yes?


----------



## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> They should issue an edited version called "The Well-Tuned Piano Lite." Great sounding, less filling.





Woodduck said:


> . . . Millionrainbows raises the question of length. Long works may be long for different reasons. Why is _The well-tuned Piano _five hours long? Would it fail to make its point at four hours? Three? Two? One? . . .





DeepR said:


> Too long and boring . . .


*Perhaps a single length edit; 
*
_"Ah, it took me years to write it:
They were the best years of my life.
It was a beautiful song
But it ran too long.
If you're gonna have a hit
You gotta make it fit,
So they cut it down to 3:05"_​_
_

_*It'll never get any airplay at 6:00:00*_


----------



## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Been around this kind of music for 9/10's of my life so far (over 45 years) and the conclusion I've come up with is that you can put it together with Abstract Expressionism. It's a lot like a painting of Jackson Pollock or Rothko. I'm not sure I want to live in that space that equates this work of Youngs with something by Bach or Stravinsky anymore than I want to equate a work of Rothko's with Dirk Bouts or John Everett Millais. They are from aesthetic movements of times when many values have been challenged.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Just by coincidence I've started to listen to this late piece of music by Horatio Radulescu on youtuube, Ocult Pulses. Am I wrong to think that there's something in common with Well Tuned Piano? Something to do with the way it works on you when you listen to it, the way it evolves.

There seems to me a whole genre of music like this which crosses the traditional academic boundaries of spectralism/deep listening/minimalism.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I do wish there was someone here who knows and likes the piece. And the same for Feldman - there used to be several Feldman advocates and I found them quite helpful in beginning to explore his longer pieces. Perhaps they are too busy immersed in 6 hour works to participate here anymore. If I find the time (!) I will try to find some of these old threads to revisit some of their "wisdom".


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

DeepR said:


> Too long and boring for active listening and gradually becomes too annoying in sound to serve as background/ambient music.
> Thank god for synthesizers.


Your mention of ambient music, background music, and synthesizers is revealing. You are trying to apply "Low Art" standards to a "High Art" work.

In Low Art (more popular art), the criteria of whether or not the music "serves our purposes" is of paramount importance, whether this be dance music, ambient mood music, smooth sensual synthesizers, music meant to "please us," which can represent and reinforce our lifestyle or identity, or make us go out and buy things.

The criteria of "serving our purpose" is very low on the priority list of High Art. Young's work is presented without compromise, with "being liked" by the listener, or serving the listener's imagined purpose, being placed very low on the list of priorities. 
The result is that High Art directly presents what the artist intends to convey, and this is what will give him status in the world of High Art (not album sales).

Some of the criticism here of Young's art is somewhat surprising to me, considering that it's coming from supposedly experienced and committed Classical Music (High Art) listeners. This makes me wonder how many listeners here are merely fumbling in the dark, attempting to squeeze some sort of shallow "like" factor out of High Art works, which naturally includes the usual High Art fare, such as long operas, Mahler symphonies, and other examples.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Just by coincidence I've started to listen to this late piece of music by Horatio Radulescu on youtuube, Ocult Pulses. Am I wrong to think that there's something in common with Well Tuned Piano? Something to do with the way it works on you when you listen to it, the way it evolves.


I hear some commonalities with La Monte Young's approach. He was interested on "just" tuning and naturally occurring harmonics based on a single fundamental. Spectralism was started at IRCAM when they were studying instrument sounds with Fourier analysis.

It's important to understand the ramifications of this concern with a single fundamental tone and its harmonics, in terms of (some possibilities)

•"one" in general, "one as identity," a self-similar structure which gives rise to the harmonics 2:3, 3:4, 4:5, 5:6, etc.

• This naturally leads to the "drone" of one note;

• Drones are found in Indian music, and many other musics from non-Western cultures;

• Non-Western music such as Javanese Gamelon music influenced Messiaen not only in terms of sound, but in its experience of time and events; he imparted this to his students including Boulez, which showed up in Boulez' orchestration of plucked, bell-like, string textures, and then IRCAM was founded;

• this is connected to the sensual aesthetic of French music, starting with Debussy's encounter with Javanese gamelan music at the 1889 Paris Exhibition, which was a seminal event.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> I do wish there was someone here who knows and likes the piece. And the same for Feldman - there used to be several Feldman advocates and I found them quite helpful in beginning to explore his longer pieces. Perhaps they are too busy immersed in 6 hour works to participate here anymore. If I find the time (!) I will try to find some of these old threads to revisit some of their "wisdom".


What makes you think that I don't like (late) Feldman? I do! But I just think the length is challenging to experience, and raises interesting questions about what he was doing -- questions which I can't answer.

You know the thing I would really want to hear is some very Felmanesque Schubert playing, playing where the dynamic variations are minimised. I dipped into to some 840s yesterday to try and find this, with no success.

But it is true that I'm losing sight of La Monte Young.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe


WTF? It made me think of Stephen Milligan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Milligan


----------



## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> ^^^ This is my question too. I have no problem with long operas, oratorios, symphonies, or films, as long as I like the work in question. They're generally divided into parts (movements, acts, episodes), so you don't have to worry about peeing your pants (I'm not that old yet but the day is coming) or, probably, falling asleep (don't ask if I'm that old).
> 
> Millionrainbows raises the question of length. Long works may be long for different reasons. Why is _The well-tuned Piano _five hours long? Would it fail to make its point at four hours? Three? Two? One? I've gotten through about an hour of something by Feldman, and I think I got the benefit of the kind of meditative experience he was offering and felt that any more of it would not open any new vistas.
> 
> I suspect that only those who've made it through to the end of TWTP can tell us the answer, if there is one.


As someone who's listened to the whole thing, I don't see any other way other than complete absorption for the entirety of the piece. If this is too hard, then maybe the piece isn't for you - I would venture a guess that all the other fans of the piece would also advocate active listening throughout the entire duration.


----------



## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I do wish there was someone here who knows and likes the piece. And the same for Feldman - there used to be several Feldman advocates and I found them quite helpful in beginning to explore his longer pieces. Perhaps they are too busy immersed in 6 hour works to participate here anymore. If I find the time (!) I will try to find some of these old threads to revisit some of their "wisdom".


I know and like the piece, am happy to answer any questions you have


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I may not need much more than the experience you posted above - that there is a need to listen to it with absorption (and that it can be worth it!). Here we are on page 4 of this thread and I think you are the first to say this. Many have focused on the problematic side of the endeavour but may not have attempted to go beyond that.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

We should have a listening circle. 5 CDs over 5 days, the only condition being that we listen attentively.


----------



## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Just by coincidence I've started to listen to this late piece of music by Horatio Radulescu on youtuube, Ocult Pulses. Am I wrong to think that there's something in common with Well Tuned Piano? Something to do with the way it works on you when you listen to it, the way it evolves.
> 
> There seems to me a whole genre of music like this which crosses the traditional academic boundaries of spectralism/deep listening/minimalism.


OMG.

I dozed off listening to this in _LESS THAN TWO MINUTES_.


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> Your mention of ambient music, background music, and synthesizers is revealing. You are trying to apply "Low Art" standards to a "High Art" work.
> 
> In Low Art (more popular art), the criteria of whether or not the music "serves our purposes" is of paramount importance, whether this be dance music, ambient mood music, smooth sensual synthesizers, music meant to "please us," which can represent and reinforce our lifestyle or identity, or make us go out and buy things.
> 
> ...


I may have posted my opinion in a rather blunt way, but questioning how deeply people connect with classical music is really the last thing you should do on this forum. We are all here for the same reason and that is our passion for classical music. 
Anyway, as an experienced and committed music listener, you should be able to see that your approach and the distinction you make between two kinds of music is simplistic and rather pretentious.
Not all music can be put in either this or that category; music can be "artful" to varying degrees. 
Most of the electronic ambient music I like (and which I vastly prefer to this), is in fact a niche genre, one that has little to do with pop culture, pleasing the crowd, commercialism, lifestyle, identity and all those things. It is made by independent artists and it has a relatively small audience, just like... the music of La Monte Young. So to put down one kind of music and arbitrarily classify another as "high art" is very questionable.
In the end, this is a similar type of music which produces similar effects: long, repetitive, droning, trance-like, etc. 
I would say this La Monte Young piece has more in common with ambient/minimal/drone/background/etc. music than the traditional "high art" classical works you speak of.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DeepR said:


> I may have posted my opinion in a rather blunt way, but questioning how deeply people connect with classical music is really the last thing you should do on this forum. We are all here for the same reason and that is our passion for classical music.
> Anyway, as an experienced and committed music listener, you should be able to see that your approach and the distinction you make between two kinds of music is simplistic and rather pretentious.
> Not all music can be put in either this or that category; music can be "artful" to varying degrees.
> Most of the electronic ambient music I like (and which I vastly prefer to this), is in fact a niche genre, one that has little to do with pop culture, pleasing the crowd, commercialism, lifestyle, identity and all those things. It is made by independent artists and it has a relatively small audience, just like... the music of La Monte Young. So to put down one kind of music and arbitrarily classify another as "high art" is very questionable.
> ...


Chant. Is church chant high art?

Well Tuned Piano is partly the exploration of a tuning system, like WTC.


----------



## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I don't intensely dislike the piece. I just don't think it's really "serious music." It's closer to serious sound art, or serious concept art, not "classical music" even if people want to package it like that.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Your mention of ambient music, background music, and synthesizers is revealing. You are trying to apply "Low Art" standards to a "High Art" work.
> 
> In Low Art (more popular art), the criteria of whether or not the music "serves our purposes" is of paramount importance, whether this be dance music, ambient mood music, smooth sensual synthesizers, music meant to "please us," which can represent and reinforce our lifestyle or identity, or make us go out and buy things.
> 
> ...


I see (or rather hear) the Well-Tuned Piano as the low end of High Art  Basically it is all in the tuning. There is no music. If the 12 TET tuning or oriental scale was the more rare, would the music from a kid who plays different note combinations back and forth be considered High Art?

Here a work with the same tuning but with actual music. I would daresay it contains all the intervals chords the Well-Tuned Piano has, and more, in less time and higher degree of organization.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> I see (or rather hear) the Well-Tuned Piano as the low end of High Art  Basically it is all in the tuning. There is no music. If the 12 TET tuning or oriental scale was the more rare, would the music from a kid who plays different note combinations back and forth be considered High Art?


Have you listened to all of Well Tuned Piano, Phil? Or do you have the score?


----------



## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> Your mention of ambient music, background music, and synthesizers is revealing. You are trying to apply "Low Art" standards to a "High Art" work.
> 
> In Low Art (more popular art), the criteria of whether or not the music "serves our purposes" is of paramount importance, whether this be dance music, ambient mood music, smooth sensual synthesizers, music meant to "please us," which can represent and reinforce our lifestyle or identity, or make us go out and buy things.
> 
> ...


The problem is that no great classical artist like the ones performing the repertory of all the usual great masters one applies this formula. A tiny fringe group applies it and is saying basically music can make you needlessly suffer but still be good music.

Maybe some people are just masochistic and they don't realize it?


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> The big difference may be that The Well Tuned Piano is composed to comply with a rigorous plan. It seems to be the systematic exploration of piano harmonies in this tuning. While Feldman, if he's to be taken at his word, has no plan, he just composed intuitively.


That might explain why I've listened to - and enjoyed - the entirety of Feldman'_For Philip Guston_ and the 2nd String Quartet a number of times, but I've yet to do the same with _The Well-Tuned Piano_, beautiful as I've found it in small(er) doses.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Have you listened to all of Well Tuned Piano, Phil? Or do you have the score?


I read it's an improvisation, and from all the parts I sampled at different spots, I found it is. So there is no score. Every 'performance' will be unique and equally enlightening  There doesn't necessarily need to be a score for people to hear what it is.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> I read it's an improvisation, and from all the parts I sampled at different spots, I found it is. So there is no score. Every 'performance' will be unique and equally enlightening  There doesn't necessarily need to be a score for people to hear what it is.


That's really interesting if true. Can someone confirm?

A friend said that one of his friends wanted to perform it in London, in a conservatory. He wrote to La Monte Young who said he could have the rights to do so, but he asked an exorbitantly night fee.

That's a friend of a friend story, so may be very far from the truth.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

DeepR said:


> ...Anyway, as an experienced and committed music listener, you should be able to see that your approach and the distinction you make between two kinds of music is simplistic and rather pretentious.


The terms "High Art" and "Low Art" are not put-downs; they merely show the intents and purposes of the creators, and which 'world' they come from.



> Not all music can be put in either this or that category; music can be "artful" to varying degrees.


I agree that Low Art music can be very good, often times preferable to High Art music. The distinctions refer to two marketplaces, High and Low, and are not put-downs but simply refer to the purposes and audience at which the music is aimed. Some of those distinctions are beginning to blur, with artists like Philip Glass, Terry Riley, and Brian Eno.



> Most of the electronic ambient music I like (and which I vastly prefer to this), is in fact a niche genre, one that has little to do with pop culture, pleasing the crowd, commercialism, lifestyle, identity and all those things. It is made by independent artists and it has a relatively small audience, just like... the music of La Monte Young.


I'm not so sure that's true. Could you name some artists, some albums?



> So to put down one kind of music and arbitrarily classify another as "high art" is very questionable.


Again, you are not seeing the distinction. It's not a put-down.



> In the end, this is a similar type of music which produces similar effects: long, repetitive, droning, trance-like, etc.
> I would say this La Monte Young piece has more in common with ambient/minimal/drone/background/etc. music than the traditional "high art" classical works you speak of.


While that point is true, other factors indicate that La Monte Young is not a "pop" artist; he intends to be considered a composer in the classical sense, publishes scores, gives concerts (not touring to promote records), sells performance rights, and has no intent to sell a lot of "product;" his recordings on Grammavision are out of print and hard to find.

The terms "High Art" and "Low Art" are not put-downs; they merely show the intents and purposes of the creators.


----------

