# I have 5 LvB symphony cycles. Why do I want more?



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is what I have in Beethoven symphony cycles:

Ferencsik
Szell
Wand
Hanover Band
Leibowitz
Fricsay (can only find 6 of the symphonies recorded by this conductor)

Also, I am so into opera right now that I am not listening to Beethoven's symphonies much. Yet I feel compelled to seek out and possibly purchase one or two more cycles, namely

Haitink and Bernstein

For Bernstein it is this cycle:









Thoughts? Comments?


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Should have started with the two your seeking now... that's all you would have needed.


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

I have the Haitink LSO live set and it is very good, but not great IMO. I don't return to it all that often. The Bernstein is fabulous with the exception of the 9th, and that's because of the soloists. I still mostly listen to HVK when I'm in the mood for the 9th. And can one really have too many Beethoven cycles?


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## shadowdancer (Mar 31, 2014)

Despite what you think about the conductors, one can`t talk about Beethoven cycles without knowing Karajan and Toscanini.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

My fascination with Haitink is that he is one of the rare few who are genuinely true to the metronome marks. But Bernstein is more enticing and a better price.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The Lenny is excellent. Has one of my favorite 5th's.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

Are the discs in the Sony box the same as the ones from the Bernstein Century edition, or have they been remastered?


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Florestan said:


> My fascination with Haitink is that he is one of the rare few who are genuinely true to the metronome marks. But Bernstein is more enticing and a better price.


Heck, Flory, you know that in the end you will wind up buying both. Why waste time agonizing over it?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Yeah, but which one first?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Bernstein has much more individual character, and multiple version collecting should mainly aim for contrasts, IMO.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

One of my mistakes was getting Szell when it was too close to Wand which I already had. Not sure my thinking but it came of a thread last year that must be dozens of pages long now. The other mistake was the Hanover Band, which I bought on impulse but only paid $3 for all nine symphonies, the overtures, and the Missa Solemnis--so I guess that was not so bad.

I am not one who is going to necessarily appreciate that Haitink closely follows the mentronome marks, so I think I will be more satisfied getting the Bernstein set. Seems pretty decent from an Amazon listing:



> Leonard Bernstein, New York Philharmonic. "Bernstein's cycle was recorded between 1961 and 1964, but was not released on LP as a box set until 1969 (at the time of Bernstein's "retirement" as music director of the NYPO). Bernstein challenges the musicians and the listener. To quote from a reviewer of the current CD release, 'These performances have an exuberance, energy, and scrappy, rough-hewn quality...' Bernstein brings enthusiasm and love for the music to these works."


From the same review:



> Bernard Haitink, Royal Concertgebouw. "This cycle has the incredible advantage of not having a conductor making his mark, putting his stamp on what is going on. It is supremely natural music-making all round, which results in a certainly unsensational set -- but do sensational sets bear repeated listening? This one does. Whenever I put it on, whichever of the symphonies I choose, I am completely happy with what I hear."


The reviewer: The famed TC member, KenOC! Thanks Ken!

So yeah, kind of looks like I should get both, eh?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

There is no harm in having several interpretations of works that you are most passionate about, your favorites. Different ones show a different perspective that make interesting listening and may increase your enjoyment of the great work. Usually the greater the work, the more varied the interpretation can be.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Only five? 

You could easily collect another dozen and still not have too many, but a collection isn't complete without the famed Toscanini or Furtwangler versions and Karajan's first set for DG. Coming up to date John Eliot Gardiner's set is one of the best modern one to own together with David Zinman's, all available at bargain prices.

A note on the first two conductors and many others: it is better to hand pick the best versions in various reincarnations than buy a complete box and this is especially true of Toscanini whose NBC recordings with RCA aren't as good as some of the releases brilliantly remastered on the Naxos label from other sources and Furtwangler's wartime recordings are worth seeking out.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Oh, I have a Furtwangler set, the WWII recordings. It is not complete but has symphonies 3-7 and 9. My son has a Karajan set. I had a Bruno Walter set and gave it to my son because it was somewhat stodgy IMO, probably due to slow tempos.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Why do you want more?

Likely because you are trying to discover something new, but, face it, you know those works so well that the subtle differences between one recording and another are not going to satisfy. You need to discover some other works, preferably by another composer :tiphat::devil:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

brotagonist said:


> Why do you want more?
> 
> Likely because you are trying to discover something new, but, face it, you know those works so well that the subtle differences between one recording and another are not going to satisfy. You need to discover some other works, preferably by another composer :tiphat::devil:


Well I did buy complete Mendelssohn symphonies by Abbado and have not listened to them near enough yet. May be time to revisit them.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

"*I have 5 LvB symphony cycles. Why do I want more?*"

It's Beethoven, so why not? 

You can never have enough of him.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Well I better only get one, and if that is the case, I can't resist Bernstein. After all he has to be the second best looking guy after Johnny Cash, no? Or maybe Johnny is second to Lenny? So it is worth it for the cover photo alone:


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

I have the Haitink with the LSO. It is precise, but the sound falls a bit flat, in my uneducated opinion. I tend to think that my view on this stems from the fact that it was recorded at the Barbican. In any case, get this set (the SACD 5.0/5.1). It is a worthy addition. As for the OP - Why not? It's your money. I personally have over a dozen sets of Beethoven's symphonies, from Von Karajan to Walter Weller with the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra (another recommendation). Every interpretation has its virtues.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Well I did buy complete Mendelssohn symphonies by Abbado and have not listened to them near enough yet. May be time to revisit them.


_And often._

I love the Abbado Mendelssohn set.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

It's OK if you have the money , the space to keep them and the time to listen , but there are so many other wonderful symphonies and other orchestral works etc , why bother ? I love the Beethoven symphonies as much as anyone, but I don't want to hear them day in , day out, because you can get jaded . 
We are so fortunate today , with such an incredibly wide variety of classical repertoire to choose from on CD . When I first started collecting classical LPs back in the stone age , there wasn't even even remotely close to the sheer variety of repertoire available now , even though there was quite a lot to choose from . 
Symphonies by Havergal Brian, Nikolai Myaskovsky , Zemlinsky, Krenek, Zdenek Fibich ,
John Knowles Paine, Robert Simpson, Max Bruch , Enescu , Alberic Magnard , Ernest Bloch,
George Whitefield Chadwick , Hubert Parry , Sergei Taneyev , back then in the late 1960s and early 70s ? Forget it . They weren't available . Operas by Zemlinsky, Franz Schmidt, Franz Schreker, Roussel, Magnard , Riccardo Zandonai, Antonio Carlos Gomes, Enescu , Walter Braunfels, etc ? Forget it .
It's all out there , so easy to purchase now ? What are you waiting for ?


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## Guest (May 5, 2015)

I have the Hanover also. It's pretty good. Norrington was my first full set. Now I have four including Solti and Paavo Jarvi which is my current favorite. Also I have some odds and end including the Kleiber 5 & 7 which no collection should be without.

Off the subject, I see you are from "next to Detroit". I grew up in River Rouge.


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## Guest (May 5, 2015)

edit: duplicate post


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Not enough time for too many symphonies. I am limiting myself to Beethoven and Mendelssohn for now, but could expand out some day not in the near future though. Also am really into opera for now and running up a big tab on opera cds. But this Bernstein cycle does intrigue me and somehow I feel like I will own it eventually--no rush. But the odd thing is I have only the one Mendelssohn cycle and am happy with it--for now.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Five? Great start.

I vowed to stop adding Beethoven symphonies sets to my collection some 20 years ago when I had maybe a dozen or fifteen, mostly LPs.

I broke my vow to stop adding Beethoven symphonies sets to my collection some 20 years ago, and now have maybe three dozen more than I had then, mostly CDs.

Hey! It's Beethoven. And it's the symphonies. Why do you need more? That's why.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I'd say it's apparent that you've got the wrong 5. You need the Karajans, Toscanini, and Gardiner. 

BTW, I only have 3, and I find them more than enough.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

You'll probably find this strange coming from me, but I only have _two_ cycles and I also find that more than enough: Karajan (1963) and Gardiner. Of course, I've supplemented with a few individual recordings. It also helps that I'm not continually searching for the "perfect" or "definitive" recordings. I have near clear-cut favorites for every symphony. The search is over and my wallet is thankful.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> You'll probably find this strange coming from me, but I only have _two_ cycles and I also find that more than enough: Karajan (1963) and Gardiner. Of course, I've supplemented with a few individual recordings. It also helps that I'm not continually searching for the "perfect" or "definitive" recordings. I have near clear-cut favorites for every symphony. The search is over and my wallet is thankful.


DiesIrae, could you share your clear-cut favorites? 
I only have the Karajan (63) cycle and I´m very satisfied with it. But I would like to get some more supplements of my favorites (3,5,6,7,8,9)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: Because the money is burning a hole in your pocket?


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Heliogabo said:


> DiesIrae, could you share your clear-cut favorites?
> I only have the Karajan (63) cycle and I´m very satisfied with it. But I would like to get some more supplements of my favorites (3,5,6,7,8,9)


Absolutely!

*#9*: Karajan/1963 and Fricsay/1958 are my co-favorites. Karajan 1963 is _unbeatable_ in the first and second movements. No other conductor matches the intensity, the menacing and searching atmosphere of the first movement and the manic energy of the second movement like Karajan. Fricsay has the greatest slow movement I've heard, it is indeed slow but isn't over-indulgent at 20 plus minutes like some conductors. Fricsay's comes in at a perfect 18 minutes even. He also does the best Finale, the singers don't sound muffled or distant, they get as much of the spotlight as the orchestra does, if not more, and the sound quality is crystal clear. With Karajan, it's the opposite, the singers take a back seat to the orchestra. In the Fricsay recording, listen the frantic race to the finish at the very end, it is unmatched in its energy, it makes Toscanini's Finale in his justly celebrated 1952 Ninth sound lethargic by comparison!

*#6*: Bruno Walter/Columbia, it was his recording that made the Sixth one of my very favorite symphonies. Beethoven wasn't always right about his metronome marking, and the Sixth is where I think he got it _very_ wrong. I think broad and leisurely tempi suit it best and Walter brings out the life-affirming joy of this work like nobody else. Personally, I think it benefits the symphony to _not_ take the repeats in the first movement and Walter doesn't take them. I like Böhm as well (he does take the repeats, in case you're interested)

*#5, #7*: Carlos Kleiber/Vienna for both. It may be the obvious choice, but these two performances are worthy of the praise they've received. I don't know how Kleiber achieves such clarity, it rivals HIP in this regard. Every line of music is distinct and the strings aren't overpowering as they often are in Karajan. For the Fifth, listen to the sublime contrapuntal melodies in the second movement of Kleiber's recording, it's one of the key moments I listen for and Kleiber does it best. The driving momentum and intensity of the first movement is unbelievable. The only complaint I have is that he takes the repeat in the Finale, I do think this detracts from the performance. I think the Finale already _emphatically_ drives home the point enough, it risks becoming overkill with the repeat. Some of the energy is deflated if you keep it going for too long. We get the point, let's wrap it up! :lol:

*#3*: Gardiner and Bernstein/NYP, if forced to pick, I'd go with Bernstein. Gardiner is fiery and intense, Bernstein is, too, but with more grandeur. I feel the Eroica benefits greatly from both qualities and Bernstein delivers on both. It's like a hybrid-interpretation between the old and new school. I give equal listening time to both conductors, they're both a 10/10.

*#1, #2, #8*: John Eliot Gardiner, HIP may not be your thing, but Gardiner understands very well the humor the Eighth symphony (as well as the Second). The lighter, classical nature of the First and Second symphonies are suited well to Gardiner's brisk tempi and style.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> *#9*: Karajan/1963 and *Fricsay/1958* are my co-favorites.
> 
> *#3*: *Gardiner* and Bernstein/NYP, if forced to pick, I'd go with Bernstein. Gardiner is fiery and intense, Bernstein is, too, but with more grandeur. I feel the Eroica benefits greatly from both qualities and Bernstein delivers on both. It's like a hybrid-interpretation between the old and new school. I give equal listening time to both conductors, they're both a 10/10.
> 
> The search is over and my wallet is thankful.


Yes, Fricsay's Ninth is my all time favorite! And Gardiner's Third is wonderful! You have given me more fuel for Bernstein though. And, ah yes, my wallet has already in the first 4 months of 2015 taken as big of a hit if not more than in all of 2014. I need to stop and just listen to what I have for a while--a long while.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> *#9*: Karajan/1963 and Fricsay/1958 are my co-favorites. Karajan 1963 is _unbeatable_ in the first and second movements. No other conductor matches the intensity, the menacing and searching atmosphere of the first movement and the manic energy of the second movement like Karajan. Fricsay has the greatest slow movement I've heard, it is indeed slow but isn't over-indulgent at 20 plus minutes like some conductors. Fricsay's comes in at a perfect 18 minutes even. He also does the best Finale, the singers don't sound muffled or distant, they get as much of the spotlight as the orchestra does, if not more, and the sound quality is crystal clear. With Karajan, it's the opposite, the singers take a back seat to the orchestra. In the Fricsay recording, listen the frantic race to the finish at the very end, it is unmatched in its energy, it makes Toscanini's Finale in his justly celebrated 1952 Ninth sound lethargic by comparison!
> 
> ...


You´ve been so generous and instructive in your comments :tiphat:
In fact. I´m curious about some HIP performances, and Gardiner recordings are always intriguing in this sense. 
I'll search for some of this stuff soon. Thanks DiesIrae!!


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## Onder (Jan 2, 2014)

Whenever I want to compare multiple recordings of a known piece, one of them is with Bernstein.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

If I had to do the Beethoven symphonies in the fewest number of sets, I would do...

Toscanini
Furtwangler
Bohm
Karajan 60s
Kletzki

All of those are quite different from each other and run the range from aggressive to mellow. A range of sound quality too, but that can't be helped.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Florestan said:


> ... The other mistake was the Hanover Band, which I bought on impulse but only paid $3 for all nine symphonies, the overtures, and the Missa Solemnis--so I guess that was not so bad.


Ha, I no longer regret this one. Talking about it got me to listen to it, and the wonderful thing is that it is so much different than any other cycle, that it is giving me a fresh look at the symphonies. But I still have a strong eye on the Lenny set!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Quick question. I have a chance to get the Immerseel cycle at a reasonable price. What do you think?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Florestan said:


> Quick question. I have a chance to get the Immerseel cycle at a reasonable price. What do you think?


I have the Immerseel set, but seldom listen to it. As I remember, the conductor wanted to scrape away the accumulated playing conventions of the last hundred years or so and follow the scores scrupulously. But to me, the results, while clean and vigorous, aren't very interesting. Maybe there are reasons for some of those conventions...?

For sets of that type, Gardiner is better IMO and Chailly for a very convincing quasi-hip approach.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> *#9*: Karajan/1963 and Fricsay/1958 are my co-favorites...(etc.)


Excellent choices all around. You left out No. 4, where I would choose, again, Walter.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Oh, Florestan, good luck. The 4th is great, as is the 4th. The 5th is interesting, the 2nd is long, the first is juvenelia.


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## Stirling (Nov 18, 2015)

I find much more enjoyment out of other recordings, YMMD.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I never got the Immerseel cycle.  Twice ordered. Twice sent wrong CD. Gave up. I got the Monteux cycle though (this one but earlier packaging in separate sets):


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: The same reason I collect Bach's WTC harpsichord performances:

You love the music; can't seem to ever get enough of it and realize no two performances of the same work are ever the same.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

dieter said:


> Oh, Florestan, good luck. The 4th is great, as is the 4th. The 5th is interesting, the 2nd is long, the first is juvenelia.


That should be: THE 4TH IS GREAT, AS IS THE 3RD.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Favorite interpretations from my location.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

I'm very fond of the André Cluytens recordings with the Berlin Phil on EMI/Warner and, of the HIPsters, my vote would narrowly go to Christopher Hogwood. Some might like the Liszt piano arrangements (I know I do), in which case Cyprien Katsaris' readings are still the ones to beat.


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

I understand your struggle. I have a similar problem with Haydn's London symphonies, where no one set seems completely satisfying.

Most people on this forum probably have their warhorses in Beethoven. If you want to avoid the ubiquitous Karajan, there is Blomstedt with Dresden Staatskapelle where the only weak link seems to be the fifth symphony. For the fifth, you can always get Karajan/BPO (not 1980s) or Kleiber/VPO as a supplement.

Of course, none of the above suggestions are historically correct, so if that is your cup of tea, you probably want to look elsewhere.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I found this conductor's Beethoven 5th Symphony hard to beat:


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

So that problem is already solved then. That is certainly a traditional performance, far from the current prevailing style.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

I have 8 LvB symphony cycles, both HIP and "modern" - but I'm still open to other points of view beyond those 8. Music as great as Beethoven's will never have a "last word", (not even from Carlos Kleiber).


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

dsphipps100 said:


> I have 8 LvB symphony cycles, both HIP and "modern" - but I'm still open to other points of view beyond those 8. Music as great as Beethoven's will never have a "last word", (not even from Carlos Kleiber).


I agree. LvB's symphonies span much of his career and every one is totally different to the others so they are crucial works. And they respond wonderfully to numerous interpretive approaches. I have a huge number of sets. Sometimes it is just one or two performances in the set that really seem essential. I agree with many that Toscanini and Furtwangler (so different from each other and each with numerous performances out there) are must haves and I cherish the sets by Harnoncourt and Vanska (I bought both as single CDs as they came out and just had to get the next one and then the next). I do also love the Szell set (but didn't always like it that much). The Solti set is a cracker and the '63 Karajan is also unmissable. So that is six (but it is more really as I have more than one set of Toscanini and Furtwangler).

I'm also a fan of the Bernstein set (even if it sometimes seems that he draws a little from a Hollywood version of history and tradition), van Immerseel's (joyful music making), Zinman, Monteux (wonderful Pastoral), Bohm and Klemperer the live set for me). I must get hold of the set by Walter.

I quite like the Gardiner set (but think the live remakes that he may be slowly recording are much better) and the Chailly set (the last movements in each are irresistable). As for single records ...


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

(as for single recordings....) I would have to have the two Kleibers mentioned (5 and 7), I like what I have heard (1, 5, 6, 8 and 9) of Steinberg's LvB, the Fricsay 9th and the newish Harnoncourt with the Concentus Musicus (4 & 5) among others. 

The new Harnoncourt record has some very interesting notes in which he discusses metronome markings, arguing that the great man's students may sometimes have transcribed them wrongly and, interestingly, that they were only ever intended to mark the starting speed of a movement of section and that speed has to vary in response to the events in the music as it unfolds.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

AndorFoldes said:


> I understand your struggle. I have a similar problem with Haydn's London symphonies, where no one set seems completely satisfying.


I think I have the opposite problem with the London symphonies: there are three or four very different sets that I like almost too much and am fully satisfied with: Beecham, Davis, Jochum (perhaps my favourite, certainly the first I heard for most of the symphonies) and Minkowski.


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> I think I have the opposite problem with the London symphonies: there are three or four very different sets that I like almost too much and am fully satisfied with: Beecham, Davis, Jochum (perhaps my favourite, certainly the first I heard for most of the symphonies) and Minkowski.


Well, in order not to put any ideas in your head, let me just say that your chosen cycles are among the most popular and well-respected among the London symphonies.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Yes! I love Haydn and those great symphonies and love each of those top recommendations greatly. I don't always go with the critics but here I seem to. If I had to chose one it would be the Jochum LPO set. There are other London sets that are worthwhile but don't quite do it for me like the four sets I listed. Bernstein and Harnoncourt, for example (both surprising good) and, from their complete Haydn symphony sets, Dorati and Fischer.


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> Yes! I love Haydn and those great symphonies and love each of those top recommendations greatly. I don't always go with the critics but here I seem to. If I had to chose one it would be the Jochum LPO set. There are other London sets that are worthwhile but don't quite do it for me like the four sets I listed. Bernstein and Harnoncourt, for example (both surprising good) and, from their complete Haydn symphony sets, Dorati and Fischer.


Harnoncourt is eccentric while Bernstein has some idiosyncrasies. Bernstein is my favorite for the Paris symphonies, however.

The Dorati and Fischer sets share some traits. Both have less than ideal sound. Both also feature orchestras not able to produce, say, the gorgeous orchestral colors you get from the Concertgebouw.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

If you like performances that follow Beethoven's metronome markings, you owe it to yourself to check out Zinman's set, which can be had quite cheaply these days. He goes where Haitink fears to tread, and very nearly comes off the rails at times, but it's definitely exhilarating. He also has the merit of taking almost all of the repeats (only Hogwood takes every single repeat, but he's not exactly exciting).


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

If you like period performances that give a glimpse as to how music sounded when originally performed, Roger Norrington's version (cover posted earlier) is very good. He uses original instruments that can sound strange to modern ears. The performances also emulate the original, with pitch, tempo, and emphasis quite different than what has evolved over the centuries. It's as if varnish has been removed from an old painting revealing the authentic, vibrant work. 

I'm a history afficionado and to hear a work as originally intended is intruiging and fascinating. But I know period performances are not for everyone.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

Florestan said:


> My fascination with Haitink is that he is one of the rare few who are genuinely true to the metronome marks. But Bernstein is more enticing and a better price.


Are we talking about the Haitink/LSO or Haitink/RCO?

The RCO seems to have gained a "Yeah. Haitink did that." reputation much like his other symphony cycles with RCO. Does anyone see his RCO Brahms, Schumann, Beethoven, Mahler or Strauss Poems recommendations?

He re-recorded a lot of these and they seem to have been acclaimed.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2016)

Richard8655 said:


> But I know period performances are not for everyone.


They are not automatically better.:tiphat:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Herrenvolk said:


> Are we talking about the Haitink/LSO or Haitink/RCO?


I am afraid I cannot answer that question. You would have to see which cycle Gunther Schuller was evaluating in "The Compleat Conductor" where I heard this about Haitink. I think Gunther only evaluated one or two of the Beethoven symphonies, but may have had other info regarding his judgement on Haitink.


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## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

Florestan said:


> I am afraid I cannot answer that question. You would have to see which cycle Gunther Schuller was evaluating in "The Compleat Conductor" where I heard this about Haitink. I think Gunther only evaluated one or two of the Beethoven symphonies, but may have had other info regarding his judgement on Haitink.


Schuller's book was published in 1998, a few years before the LSO cycle was released. So perforce he was referring to the RCO cycle.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

traverso said:


> They are not automatically better.:tiphat:


Hmm. Where did I say that?


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

Jeffrey Smith said:


> Schuller's book was published in 1998, a few years before the LSO cycle was released. So perforce he was referring to the RCO cycle.


Ah, so the RCO Beethoven set had fans after all. Good to know.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2016)

Richard8655 said:


> Hmm. Where did I say that?


You did not sir,its just meant too add a smal comment. I think that there are still sometimes two camps,HIP and the old way ,wich is a pity because there are beautiful things on both borders.:tiphat:


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

traverso said:


> You did not sir,its just meant too add a smal comment. I think that there are still sometimes two camps,HIP and the old way ,wich is a pity because there are beautiful things on both borders.:tiphat:


I can agree with that. Although I think period performances are often underappreciated for the aspects they offer.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2016)

Herrenvolk said:


> Ah, so the RCO Beethoven set had fans after all. Good to know.


I am one of them.:tiphat:


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

gardibolt said:


> If you like performances that follow Beethoven's metronome markings, you owe it to yourself to check out Zinman's set, which can be had quite cheaply these days. He goes where Haitink fears to tread, and very nearly comes off the rails at times, but it's definitely exhilarating. He also has the merit of taking almost all of the repeats (only Hogwood takes every single repeat, but he's not exactly exciting).


Abbado-Berlin also takes all the repeats. (The ADD Solti-Chicago does as well, as does Abbado's first run with the Vienna Philarharmonic, but those are versions that don't even pay any attention to Beethoven's metronome markings, so I would assume they don't count in this instance.







)


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## severance68 (Mar 12, 2016)

Hmm. No mentions in this thread (that I've seen) of Szell's Beethoven cycle? I'm still new to TC, but I thought I'd seen a fair amount of praise for his interpretations. 

I only have two complete cycles so far -- Szell and Karajan ('63). I also have Carlos Kleiber's 5th and 7th, and Bruno Walter's 1st, 2nd, 7th and 8th. I've been thinking about eventually getting Toscanini's 1939 recordings; what I've heard of his 7th was intriguing.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

severance68 said:


> Hmm. No mentions in this thread (that I've seen) of Szell's Beethoven cycle? I'm still new to TC, but I thought I'd seen a fair amount of praise for his interpretations.
> 
> I only have two complete cycles so far -- Szell and Karajan ('63). I also have Carlos Kleiber's 5th and 7th, and Bruno Walter's 1st, 2nd, 7th and 8th. I've been thinking about eventually getting Toscanini's 1939 recordings; what I've heard of his 7th was intriguing.


The Szell is fantastic.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Herrenvolk said:


> Are we talking about the Haitink/LSO or Haitink/RCO?
> 
> The RCO seems to have gained a "Yeah. Haitink did that." reputation much like his other symphony cycles with RCO. Does anyone see his RCO Brahms, Schumann, Beethoven, Mahler or Strauss Poems recommendations?
> 
> He re-recorded a lot of these and they seem to have been acclaimed.


This box is value for money!

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Decca/4786360


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2016)

Pugg said:


> This box is value for money!
> 
> http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Decca/4786360


Yes this is a very fine box and a bargain aswell.I very much like his Beethoven and love his Brahms,Mahler and Bruckner.His Schumann and Tchaikovsky are also more than acceptable,you can't go wrong with this box.Ask five people what is the best...and you might get five different answers.
The sound is better than ever on cd!:tiphat:


pic host


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## majlis (Jul 24, 2005)

I don't have any of LvB symphonies. Why would I want any of them?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

*Vinyl*

​
Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Symphonien Nr.1-9 (180g, limitierte und nummerierte Deluxe-Ausgabe)
Gundula Janowitz, Hilde Rössel-Majdan, Waldemar Kmentt, Walter Berry, Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert von Karajan

Classic !


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

majlis said:


> I don't have any of LvB symphonies. Why would I want any of them?


You don't have to do/ buy anything you don't want.
So no problem :lol:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

majlis said:


> I don't have any of LvB symphonies. Why would I want any of them?


Have you heard any of the LvB symphonies?


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

I don't hear the nuances from Toscanini that I do from modern performances. Maybe it's the old, limited recording technology, but his performances are too fast and sound like he's banging out the pieces. Maybe it's me or just used to later interpretations. My LvB includes Solti (CSO) and Norrington (LCP as period performances).


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## majlis (Jul 24, 2005)

Have all 9 on piano, Liszt's transcriptions. And yes, I have been listening classical for last 60 years more or less. and I had no option that to heard it sometime.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

severance68 said:


> Hmm. No mentions in this thread (that I've seen) of Szell's Beethoven cycle?


There are more than several threads here on Beethoven symphony cycles, and surely some mention Szell. Szell's cycle is a very good one and would be a solid recommendation for anyone who is looking to own just one cycle.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

majlis said:


> Have all 9 on piano, Liszt's transcriptions. And yes, I have been listening classical for last 60 years more or less. and I had no option that to heard it sometime.


Liszt's piano transcriptions are very good, but the actual LvB symphonies are wonderful. To me, the greatest symphonic music ever written. Surely you would find at least one to like.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

dsphipps100 said:


> Abbado-Berlin also takes all the repeats. (The ADD Solti-Chicago does as well, as does Abbado's first run with the Vienna Philarharmonic, but those are versions that don't even pay any attention to Beethoven's metronome markings, so I would assume they don't count in this instance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip. After examining his set, Abbado-Berlin does indeed take each and every one of the repeats and they're quite excellent performances to boot (my god, that horn section of the Berliners is incredible in his hands--nothing I've ever heard like it). I'll have to check Solti-Chicago to confirm that one as well; I don't have a complete set of those though so it may be a while. Anyway, I now have both a HIP and a Big Band version to satisfy this requirement.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

majlis said:


> Have all 9 on piano, Liszt's transcriptions. And yes, I have been listening classical for last 60 years more or less. and I had no option that to heard it sometime.


The Naxos set with Scherbakov and Leslie Howard's versions are all right. But Cyprien Katsaris is the one to hear on these transcriptions. Really incredible and combines the fire of Liszt and Beethoven in a memorable and breathtaking way.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

gardibolt said:


> The Naxos set with Scherbakov and Leslie Howard's versions are all right. But *Cyprien Katsaris is the one to hear on these transcriptions*. Really incredible and combines the fire of Liszt and Beethoven in a memorable and breathtaking way.


Even Katsaris is trumped by Glenn Gould's recording of the 5th and 6th. Incredible playing!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Florestan said:


> TSzell's cycle is a very good one and would be a solid recommendation for anyone who is looking to own just one cycle.


Agreed. I like his precision.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

majlis said:


> I don't have any of LvB symphonies. Why would I want any of them?


Why do people climb a mountain? Because it's there.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

There is a new version under Simon Rattle.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Even Katsaris is trumped by Glenn Gould's recording of the 5th and 6th. Incredible playing!


Interesting; I don't have Gould's version. I'll need to hunt that down. Thanks for the tip.


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