# Is physical media really dying?



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I've read that certain manufacturers of blu-ray players like Oppo and Samsung have announced they will no longer manufacture any more Blu-ray players. The CD, of course has already died, as far a the player industry is concerned.

Yet… as I check on sites such as Blu-ray.com, more and more Blu-rays and recently 4K movies are being issued and re-issued over and I over. Even movies I'd never heard of or wouldn't consider buying are coming in droves.

Are manufacturers of players not aware of this? I still want a 4K player and TV and I'm buying 4K movies (with Blu-ray) in anticipation.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

> Are manufacturers of players not aware of this?


They are very aware that sales for physical product peaked 15 years ago and are down by over 80 percent at the present time. Streaming pretty much killed the physical market. And when consumers do make a purchase, most choose a standard DVD. The same reason SACD never really caught on.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/08/the...-dropped-more-than-86percent-in-13-years.html


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Blu-Ray and other discs would still be far preferable in rural America, whose only "broadband" option is satellite. Services like DirecPC were/are slow, very expensive, and highly problematic.

There will also always be a niche market for old fuddy-duddys who simply prefer a product we can hold in our hands. At least until we all drop dead.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

progmatist said:


> Blu-Ray and other discs would still be far preferable in rural America, whose only "broadband" option is satellite. Services like DirecPC were/are slow, very expensive, and highly problematic.
> 
> There will also always be a niche market for old fuddy-duddys who simply prefer a product we can hold in our hands. At least until we all drop dead.


With humans living so long these days, it might be twenty years or more before we keel over. There were several who lived until the early 000s. Actress Olivia de Havilland (Gone With The Wind) and operatic soprano Magda Olivero both lived until 104. I'm sure there are more that I don't know about.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

MAS said:


> With humans living so long these days, it might be twenty years or more before we keel over. There were several who lived until the early 000s. Actress Olivia de Havilland (Gone With The Wind) and operatic soprano Magda Olivero both lived until 104. I'm sure there are more that I don't know about.


They are not living as long as they did 2 years ago.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

I think physical media as in BluRay,DVD etc is dying and probably should die to help the planet. A few years ago we upgraded our dumb TV to a 4K internet savvy one. I then installed the Apple TV app and have not bought a film physically since. Purchase or rental of a movie is two remote clicks away, in high res and with less cost to the planet than physical reproduction.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

OMG. Blu-Ray is dead already?

We still don't even have a Blu-Ray player, and, of course, no Blu-Ray discs.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Well this mag is still recommending CD and BluRay players

https://www.whathifi.com/us/awards/best-cd-players-2020


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

mikeh375 said:


> . Purchase or rental of a movie is two remote clicks away, in high res and with less cost to the planet than physical reproduction.


It is until they stop carrying it.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Manxfeeder said:


> It is until they stop carrying it.


I take your point but with purchased movies I'd have thought that they (Apple), will have to keep them on their servers.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Forster said:


> Well this mag is still recommending CD and BluRay players
> 
> https://www.whathifi.com/us/awards/best-cd-players-2020


LOL, good post. :lol:


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

MAS said:


> I've read that certain manufacturers of blu-ray players like Oppo and Samsung have announced they will no longer manufacture any more Blu-ray players. The CD, of course has already died, as far a the player industry is concerned.
> 
> Yet… as I check on sites such as Blu-ray.com, more and more Blu-rays and recently 4K movies are being issued and re-issued over and I over. Even movies I'd never heard of or wouldn't consider buying are coming in droves.
> 
> Are manufacturers of players not aware of this? I still want a 4K player and TV and I'm buying 4K movies (with Blu-ray) in anticipation.


Oppo Digital (not it's Chinese parent) shut down entirely in 2018 (I believe). Remarkably, the company still repairs its products, although replacement parts of getting scarce.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I had to buy a second-hand Blu-ray player (Pioneer BDP-450) as I wasn't able to find anything decent in the stores. There is shortage in electronic components afaik, but many vendors have left this market and there is no one to take their place.
On the other hand, there's an abundance of CD players and transports available!
I don't get it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Azol said:


> I had to buy a second-hand Blu-ray player (Pioneer BDP-450) as I wasn't able to find anything decent in the stores. There is shortage in electronic components afaik, but many vendors have left this market and there is no one to take their place.
> On the other hand, there's an abundance of CD players and transports available!
> I don't get it.


I guess blu ray never really caught on. I have been frustrated at times trying to buy used DVDs only to find high prices and the blu ray sets much lower prices. The day may come when blu ray players are only found at resale shops and garage sales. I think that is the case with VHS tape players if they even still exist there. Maybe blu ray can be converted to a standard video file format by ripping and/or copying. I once had some VHS tapes converted to DVD.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I bet they suddenly discovered it's much more profitable to offer stream services inster of real product that you can keep


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

mikeh375 said:


> I think physical media as in BluRay,DVD etc is dying and probably should die to help the planet. A few years ago we upgraded our dumb TV to a 4K internet savvy one. I then installed the Apple TV app and have not bought a film physically since. Purchase or rental of a movie is two remote clicks away, in high res and with less cost to the planet than physical reproduction.


How much Carbon does it consume to push a film of an Orchestral Concert through Broadband to be viewed 30 times over? And how much is consumed by the manufacture of a polycarbonate disc that can be played repeatedly from a machine? I actually don't know the answer to these questions, but I am questioning the assumptions that you make


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Azol said:


> I bet they suddenly discovered it's much more profitable to offer stream services inster of real product that you can keep


Of course streaming is more profitable. They don't have to store and ship unwanted inventory


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Warm House effect narrative of Global Warming is a pure propaganda, they just want to centralize the energy and marxify the market according to the demand of capitalist-socialism corporate bodies(thugs in technological disguise). I will confidently say the global climate is going to drastically change but not for the propagandized cause rather natural and unknown to us. GW campaign is a hype of science and of the capital to self-apotheosize their own false ideologies, by playing a false prophet through information manipulation. There is nothing we can do to stop the coming climate change, someone just wants to play savior and prophet. 

Digital media is always inferior to classical media, including the books and concert goings. Computer is nowhere useful than being a physico-mathematical devise to experiment certain statistical and algorithmic processes, you will never really understand how to exploit a computer without doing a lot of math with it: computer=math. 

5G telecommunication=algorithmic process using radio signals as simulation units with extensive AI application, extremely proned to espionage through authorities, also extremely energy-wasting. 

None of the recent digital media really concern classical concepts of music and art. Unless, you would become an artist while getting a master degree from Princeton`s mathematical department.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

progmatist said:


> Blu-Ray and other discs would still be far preferable in rural America, whose only "broadband" option is satellite.


Not true where I live, a rural county with a population of 5,000. We have 1gig fiber optic cable Internet, and live five miles from the closest town of 900.

Re: physical media - things change, always have.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Triplets said:


> How much Carbon does it consume to push a film of an Orchestral Concert through Broadband to be viewed 30 times over? And how much is consumed by the manufacture of a polycarbonate disc that can be played repeatedly from a machine? I actually don't know the answer to these questions, but I am questioning the assumptions that you make


yep, there's no free lunches until we get nuclear fusion online and develop further other technologies to give us the electricity we need. Everything we do has an environmental cost somewhere along the line, but plastic in particular is a real s.o.b and it's pretty clear that it is more immediately ecologically harmful as well as its production being environmentally damaging.

Anything we can do to limit plastic production and usage can't be bad in my book, that's my reasoning anyway and perhaps there's some sense in it.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

We use much more plastic bags and stuff that we throw away daily. We try to recycle and sort our garbage, but there are at least 5 pieces of plastic in the trash bin right now and it got emptied daily. How many CDs and/or jewel cases you got rid of today? Me - none this year. But the streaming service takes up space and energy in huge datacenters - are you sure their eco footprint is negligible when compared to a CD pressing factory? I'm not too sure.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Azol said:


> We use much more plastic bags and stuff that we throw away daily. We try to recycle and sort our garbage, but there are at least 5 pieces of plastic in the trash bin right now and it got emptied daily. How many CDs and/or jewel cases you got rid of today? Me - none this year.


I wonder if its best to hang on to CD cases and the like unless you can guarantee their appropriate recycling by the authorities? We do the best we can too here in the UK but I'm not sure I trust our local council to be as diligent as the public (well those of us citizens who care).


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

mikeh375 said:


> Anything we can do to limit plastic production and usage can't be bad in my book, that's my reasoning anyway and perhaps there's some sense in it.


I am not concerned about the eventual discontinuation of CD manufacture. And as you say, the less plastic we produce, the better.

My collection of CDs is not going anywhere, they will outlive me, no doubt - but I hardly ever listen to them. I stopped buying new CDs ten years ago, except on rare occasions an OOP box set of something I've always wanted (but I haven't done that in a while).

Streaming is how I listen nowadays, and I've never been happier.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

^^That just about sums me up too SA, although I do listen to CD's still as I like the sound quality. For the last few years, pre-pandemic, I just picked up bargain CD's in charity shops as I already have a large collection. Streaming has subtly encroached into my listening habit over the years, especially via YT and now takes up about half of the time, especially when there's good recommendations from TC'ers.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2021)

SixFootScowl said:


> I guess blu ray never really caught on. I have been frustrated at times trying to buy used DVDs only ti find high prices and the blu ray sets much lower prices. The day may come when blu ray players are only found at resale ships and garage sales. I think that is the case with VHS tape players if they even still exist there. Maybe blu ray can be converted to a standard video file format by ripping and/or copying. I once had some VHS tapes converted to DVD.


Not my experience, when I go hunting on eBay I usually find Blu-ray Discs are at a premium price while DVD's go for $3 or $4 each. Bluray discs can be ripped like DVD's, but the encryption is more challenging and I only know of one free program that rips them.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Azol said:


> I bet they suddenly discovered it's much more profitable to offer stream services inster of real product that you can keep


Not to mention that the only way to share streamed content is for the others to be present while you stream it, where DVDs etc, can be copied and handed out freely, well at least I have been able to rip most every DVD I have ever purchased, not to hand out but it is so much easier to have the ripped DVD on my hard drive than to flip disks all the time--but I still like the disks for backups.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Not my experience, when I go hunting on eBay I usually find Blu-ray Discs are at a premium price while DVD's go for $3 or $4 each. Bluray discs can be ripped like DVD's, but the encryption is more challenging and I only know of one free program that rips them.


Well my sample size is pretty small, maybe half a dozen operas at most. And likely i have run across plenty of cases where the blu ray was more expensive and totally overlooked it since my focus was on DVDs. In other words, my noted experience on blue ray vs DVD used pricing may be totally biased and meaningless. :lol:


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2021)

SixFootScowl said:


> Not to mention that the only way to share streamed content is for the others to be present while you stream it, where DVDs etc, can be copied and handed out freely, well at least I have been able to rip most every DVD I have ever purchased, not to hand out but it is so much easier to have the ripped DVD on my hard drive than to flip disks all the time--but I still like the disks for backups.


blu ray is the same. Using MakeMKV you can rip a blu ray disc to an MKV file, which can be played on any computer using a standard media player. If you find MKV files inconvenient you can translate the mkv to whatever video format you prefer (mp4, m4v, etc) using something like HandBrake. The only practical al difference is that blu ray video is higher resolution and the files are bigger. (This doesn't apply to blu ray 4k discs, which have encryption which cannot be decrypted by any free programs I know of).


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> Not true where I live, a rural county with a population of 5,000. We have 1gig fiber optic cable Internet, and live five miles from the closest town of 900.
> 
> Re: physical media - things change, always have.


You are among the fortunate. In most rural areas, the profit potential isn't there for the broadband giants to expand. Mind you, rural Tennessee isn't quite the same as rural Wyoming, or either Dakota. When one lives 25, 50 or 100 miles from the nearest town, and that town is 100 miles from the nearest city, that changes the math considerably.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

progmatist said:


> You are among the fortunate. In most rural areas, the profit potential isn't there for the broadband giants to expand. Mind you, rural Tennessee isn't quite the same as rural Wyoming, or either Dakota. When one lives 25, 50 or 100 miles from the nearest town, and that town is 100 miles from the nearest city, that changes the math considerably.


Our broadband service provider is not a giant, Twin Lakes - they might be somewhat local.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Baron Scarpia said:


> blu ray is the same. Using MakeMKV you can rip a blu ray disc to an MKV file, which can be played on any computer using a standard media player. If you find MKV files inconvenient you can translate the mkv to whatever video format you prefer (mp4, m4v, etc) using something like HandBrake. The only practical al difference is that blu ray video is higher resolution and the files are bigger. (This doesn't apply to blu ray 4k discs, which have encryption which cannot be decrypted by any free programs I know of).


Brasero will rip DVDs to to a .iso file, which is a virtual copy of the DVD and plays exactly as the DVD does. I quit using the .ISO as a typical opera DVD would be 8GB and I can get it to 1-2 GB if I rip with Handbrake and burn in the subtitles too. No menus to monkey with on the Handbrake rips.


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## That Guy Mick (May 31, 2020)

pianozach said:


> OMG. Blu-Ray is dead already?
> 
> We still don't even have a Blu-Ray player, and, of course, no Blu-Ray discs.


Blu-ray has been around for about fifteen years no. It hit the consumer market in 2006. And with technology we must think in terms of dog years.


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## That Guy Mick (May 31, 2020)

SixFootScowl said:


> I once had some VHS tapes converted to DVD.


What! And ruined that glorious soft and silky analog look and sound, in exchange for the harsh digital format. Four-head, hif-fi to the end for me!


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I have boxes of VHS tapes down in the garage.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

pianozach said:


> I have boxes of VHS tapes down in the garage.


We dumped the VHS tapes at a charity shop where they may someday end up in the trash as likely nobody will buy them.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Azol said:


> I had to buy a second-hand Blu-ray player (Pioneer BDP-450) as I wasn't able to find anything decent in the stores. There is shortage in electronic components afaik, but many vendors have left this market and there is no one to take their place.
> On the other hand, there's an abundance of CD players and transports available!
> I don't get it.


Blu Rays discs are expensive. I have 3 Universal Players in my house but I use them primarily for for SACD and Blu Ray Audio. If I can borrow a Blu Ray movie from my local library , but more often than not it's a long wait and it's just easier to stream it


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I don't watch movies. All my blu-ray disks are either operas or some concert performances.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

That Guy Mick said:


> What! And ruined that glorious soft and silky analog look and sound, in exchange for the harsh digital format. Four-head, hif-fi to the end for me!


When I digitize VHS concert videos, I capture the Hi-Fi Stereo track in 24/96 Hi-Res. I find it superior sounding to the 16/48 audio of the equivalent DVD version. Now back to the regularly scheduled satire.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

There is a concerted effort to kill physical media. Physicians discovered long ago that there is more money to be made by NOT curing diseases, but by "treating the symptoms": That is, insuring that the customer/client/patient has to make return visits.

A CD or a DVD is sold once. A streaming "service" is a constant source of income for the service provider.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

pianozach said:


> There is a concerted effort to kill physical media. Physicians discovered long ago that there is more money to be made by NOT curing diseases, but by "treating the symptoms": That is, insuring that the customer/client/patient has to make return visits.
> 
> A CD or a DVD is sold once. A streaming "service" is a constant source of income for the service provider.


Is that why record companies have re-issued their back catalog titles umpteen times? But I do agree that the tech companies have had a huge negative impact on the livelihood of musicians and retailers. They are even bigger thieves than the giant record companies.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

pianozach said:


> There is a concerted effort to kill physical media. Physicians discovered long ago that there is more money to be made by NOT curing diseases, but by "treating the symptoms": That is, insuring that the customer/client/patient has to make return visits.
> 
> A CD or a DVD is sold once. A streaming "service" is a constant source of income for the service provider.





starthrower said:


> Is that why record companies have re-issued their back catalog titles umpteen times? But I do agree that the tech companies have had a huge negative impact on the livelihood of musicians and retailers. They are even bigger thieves than the giant record companies.


*Repackaging* is merely an earlier marketing strategy that is still hanging on - People (especially us older folks) still like to have something physical. We love the notes on glossy paper, the photos, the artwork, handling the LP or CD - it's part of the 'experience' for us. The product providers haven't forgotten us . . . we're a freakin' cash cow - we're all chuffed about new clean remixes, demos, alternate takes, etc.

There are enough people that will shell out $24 for a 3-CD compilation that includes one unreleased song. Hell, they're even re-re-rereleasing product on LPs, because there's enough people that love THAT.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I think it will be a very long time before physical media is no longer an option. For one thing there is so much of it out there, used copies of CDs and LPs are still easy to find. I also think that record labels will continue to issue their back catalog as long as they can make money at it.

And finally, our physical collections are not going anywhere, unless we voluntarily get rid of them.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I think it is dying, and even I, who resisted giving in to streaming services for so long, am now finding myself listening to classical music via Qobuz more than listening to my digital files that I own. That said, certain things, like vinyl, will probably be around for a while. I can't see blu-rays and DVDs disappearing any time soon but there's no doubt that they're declining in popularity.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

It's happening with books as well, although I doubt that they'll ever truly entirely disappear.

Reading books on your tablet, iPad, or Kindle is very popular. I wouldn't be surprised if there is already a streaming service for books: Pay the monthly fee, and you get access to a library of literary works.

It's already happened with television series. It is now just as common that a new popular series will be hosted on a service that requires a subscription. There's a boatload of THEM now. Paramount Plus, HBO, Disney Plus, Netflix, etc.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

starthrower said:


> Is that why record companies have re-issued their back catalog titles umpteen times? But I do agree that the tech companies have had a huge negative impact on the livelihood of musicians and retailers. They are even bigger thieves than the giant record companies.


Another contributing factor would be evolving digital technology allowing better and better compensation for the shortcomings of CD quality digital audio. Hence, remaster after remaster after remaster.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

progmatist said:


> Another contributing factor would be evolving digital technology allowing better and better compensation for the shortcomings of CD quality digital audio. Hence, remaster after remaster after remaster.


And most of them don't sound better, they sound worse. And it's either done on purpose or the person hired by the record company has lousy hearing or bad taste?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

pianozach said:


> There is a concerted effort to kill physical media. Physicians discovered long ago that there is more money to be made by NOT curing diseases, but by "treating the symptoms": That is, insuring that the customer/client/patient has to make return visits.
> 
> A CD or a DVD is sold once. A streaming "service" is a constant source of income for the service provider.


That's a rather bizarre opening statement to start with, let alone that it has no obvious relevance as the intended analogy.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Well, Presto Classical lists literally hundreds of new classical titles every month on CD and SACD, with no sign of slowing down. Some of course are re-releases, but very far from a majority of them are.

So it's not quite dead. 

I myself still buy CDs and SACDs, because music is far too important to entrust to streaming services, and digital downloads often have their own issues (botched metadata, more difficult searching, missing important information, etc.) I guess that makes me a luddite. So be it.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Knorf said:


> I myself still buy CDs and SACDs, because music is far too important to entrust to streaming services, and digital downloads often have their own issues (botched metadata, more difficult searching, missing important information, etc.) I guess that makes me a luddite. So be it.


It makes you a paying customer who supports artists and record labels. I refuse to subscribe to a streaming service.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

starthrower said:


> It makes you a paying customer who supports artists and record labels.


Indeed, and that's not unimportant. The compensation to performing artists (speaking as one) from streaming services is beyond terrible. It's like a sort of horrible (albeit non-violence-supported) feudalism.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

This current mercenary business model of screwing everybody for the benefit of the one percent will lead to more violence. It's not sustainable. And these big companies and conglomerates profiting hugely from the work of artists without providing reasonable compensation is a form of violence. But everybody continues to do business with Amazon and streaming companies so the dilemma continues.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Knorf said:


> ...
> I myself still buy CDs and SACDs, because music is far too important to entrust to streaming services, and digital downloads often have their own issues (botched metadata, more difficult searching, missing important information, etc.) I guess that makes me a luddite. So be it.


That is exactly why I don't go (fall) for Streaming.

I think the subscription model, i.e. keep paying until you die, is a rip off. Even if one accepts free, lossy streaming, you are still at the mercy of that tech company staying in business and continuing to offer free streaming. That is still too risky IMO as such companies can disappear or re-aligne their priorities any time. On top of that, the lack of any recording data is also a showstopper for me.

On the other hand, CDs and downloads, as products, are much more attractive to me as a consumer.

Apart from having to pay only once for a release, and most of the time it will come with proper recording data, there is also one significant advantage - I don't need 1) the internet, nor 2) a streaming service being on-line, in order to play my music. How important is it to avoid these 2 things? Think about this - why should playing music on my stereo have any dependency on my ISP and a third party streaming company whose businesses really have not much to do with music? I call this a liability.

I rip all my discs, so together with downloads, I maintain a library and run my own backup solution. I can do whatever I want. You can't with a streaming service. However, I suspect a lot of people still prefer streaming because these are exactly the kinds of things that they don't want to do. They may also prefer streaming because of the slick, convenient, and most importantly off-the-shelf, user experience.

Is there a market for people like me, I assume, one of the minority?

I assume the record companies would explore every commercial opportunity. As long as their very clever actuaries say there is money to be made from a whatever format or delivery mechanism, they will be in it.

On the other hand, the tech companies, who sell you streaming service subscriptions, would definitely try everything they can to move the masses to streaming away from discs/downloads. Because they make more money this way, otherwise why would they do it?

What they are selling is a service that has nothing to do with music making, record production or any form of artist/repertoire development. For the record companies, these IT companies have created a consumer platform out of nothing and are seemingly ripping them off, but they can't ignore its money-making potential, so they have to be in it. For the consumers, this platform offers a slick, convenient purchase experience that happens to be able to play music as well. How attractive is this? I don't think it's attractive at all for the reasons that I have stated up front, but I suspect a lot of people find it a fantastic idea.

Some day, if these tech companies should be successful in luring most consumers to streaming, so that the revenues from discs/downloads should become far less than streaming, then we could no longer expect the record companies to make every new release/re-issue available on discs/downloads, very much like the situation we have today with SACDs and the 2nd coming of LPs. We are not there yet, but that would be a sad day.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

starthrower said:


> This current mercenary business model of screwing everybody for the benefit of the one percent will lead to more violence. It's not sustainable. And these big companies and conglomerates profiting hugely from the work of artists without providing reasonable compensation is a form of violence. But everybody continues to do business with Amazon and streaming companies so the dilemma continues.


Even before streaming, most artists signed to a major label, not named Taylor Swift or Lady Gaga would end up millions in debt to the label.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

progmatist said:


> Even before streaming, most artists signed to a major label, not named Taylor Swift or Lady Gaga would end up millions in debt to the label.


I did mention that the big labels are thieves. Without shrewd legal advice many artists signed sucker deals leaving them vulnerable to multiple liabilities. The good thing is that home recording technology and the internet allows artists to operate independently and sell directly to their fans.


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## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

I worry the number of new quality studio recordings will tail off a cliff. 
In non-classical there's little money for not-so-established artists in CDs or streaming, so they have to earn their money from concerts & PAs. 
Part of the reason behind there being more vinyl around is there's a push from record companies to mitigate losses from file-sharing. The artists I know who release on vinyl only don't seem to have been affected by it as much as those who also release on CD.


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## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

Other than the odd look up on Youtube and listening to friends' albums, mixes and tracks I'm not at all keen on streaming from the cloud for any music. The streaming servuces seem set uo t play individual tracks and I' prefer to play whole albums. orse for classical 
I'm at the age when I need to keep things financially sustainable and think can I continue this into very old age? Can I keep paying for streaming subscriptions, broadband, computer parts, replacement computers, the electric to run PC, streaming device?
With my own media I just need to replace styli periodically and should my CD player or amplifier break them make a repair.
I do have all my CDs tipped and stream on my own network to a DLNA network streamer/renderer. There's no content subscription needed but to sustain that I need to have a smartphone/tablet, a NAS or PC etc.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

starthrower said:


> I did mention that the big labels are thieves. Without shrewd legal advice many artists signed sucker deals leaving them vulnerable to multiple liabilities.


Even when represented, artists sign(ed) the contract anyway, against advice of counsel. The stars in their eyes blind them to reality.



starthrower said:


> The good thing is that home recording technology and the internet allows artists to operate independently and sell directly to their fans.


The drawback of that is the market is now saturated with rubbish. It's hard to find anything worth listening to.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't have any trouble finding good music to listen to. I frequent three forums for ideas, and there are sites like Bandcamp where a lot quality music can be listened to and purchased. I listen to very little pop music so I don't have to worry about combing through the rubbish. I'm really only interested in modern jazz, classical, and progressive ensembles playing original music.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

_Are_ physical media really dying.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

mikeh375 said:


> I think physical media as in BluRay,DVD etc is dying and probably should die to help the planet. A few years ago we upgraded our dumb TV to a 4K internet savvy one. I then installed the Apple TV app and have not bought a film physically since. Purchase or rental of a movie is two remote clicks away, in high res and with less cost to the planet than physical reproduction.


Any idea how much Carbon is consumed by streaming?


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Triplets said:


> Any idea how much Carbon is consumed by streaming?


nope. you?................

There is always a cost to the planet, no matter what but can streaming be doing as much harm as mass plastic and other materials production? At least there is no potential for my film purchase to end up in landfill or the ocean.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

mikeh375 said:


> ...can streaming be doing as much harm as mass plastic and other materials production? At least there is no potential for my film purchase to end up in landfill or the ocean.


Computer components are being replaced and trashed (hopefully recycled, but we know the reality) _all_ the time. Drives, especially those used for massive data stacks with heavy duty cycles, are replaced regularly, but so are many other components, including circuit boards, RAM, wiring, fans and casing, etc. And most of the electricity powering "cloud" storage is not renewable; the components used are powered continuously. The power and resource use consumed by server farms is actually pretty insane. In short, relying 100% on Internet services just pushes the resource consumption question out of sight. That consumption is not gone, and it's not necessarily more efficient nor functioning at a lower ecological or human-rights impact level, either.

So, in the end, no, I do not think there's a compelling argument in environmental impact terms in choosing streaming over physical media.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Knorf said:


> Computer components are being replaced and trashed (hopefully recycled, but we know the reality) _all_ the time. Drives, especially those used for massive data stacks with heavy duty cycles, are replaced regularly, but so are many other components, including circuit boards, RAM, wiring, fans and casing, etc. And most of the electricity powering "cloud" storage is not renewable; the components used are powered continuously. The power and resource use consumed by server farms is actually pretty insane. In short, relying 100% on Internet services just pushes the resource consumption question out of sight. That consumption is not gone, and it's not necessarily more efficient nor functioning at a lower ecological or human-rights impact level, either.
> 
> So, in the end, no, I do not think there's a compelling argument in environmental impact terms in choosing streaming over physical media.


Indeed Knorf, I have acknowledged that there is an environmental cost no matter what we do. We need computers but do we need to compound the computer and internets negative impact on our world with yet more manufacturing, especially when the internet has shown it can eliminate the need for such in some instances? Duplicating access to films via Dvd's and Blu Rays is a needless luxury imv and pales into insignificance compared to the sacrifices we as a society and economically may have to make in order to give future generations a better chance of a decent life. There are hard choices coming and tbh I'm deeply pessimistic about our ability to change even with the desire to do so.

Without wishing to derail the thread it's worth mentioning a few environmental benefits being derived from the digital age such as eliminating the need for paper and for us, developments in medicine and science all thanks to AI. Computers are critical in the hunt for nuclear fusion too of course, which although apparently still a few decades away (it's an old physicists joke that says it's always 30 years away), may yet give our kids a chance.

So all told, we may have to disagree on the specific point about media even if for the simple fact that my purchased movie will not physically end up in landfill or an ocean irrespective of what it cost for me to download/stream it. However, we do agree on the environmental cost irrespective of the details.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

mikeh375 said:


> nope. you?................
> 
> There is always a cost to the planet,


Cost to the planet or change to the planet? Nothing is constant, change is normal and natural.

Peace


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Knorf said:


> Computer components are being replaced and trashed (hopefully recycled, but we know the reality) _all_ the time. Drives, especially those used for massive data stacks with heavy duty cycles, are replaced regularly, but so are many other components, including circuit boards, RAM, wiring, fans and casing, etc. And most of the electricity powering "cloud" storage is not renewable; the components used are powered continuously. The power and resource use consumed by server farms is actually pretty insane. In short, relying 100% on Internet services just pushes the resource consumption question out of sight. That consumption is not gone, and it's not necessarily more efficient nor functioning at a lower ecological or human-rights impact level, either.
> 
> So, in the end, no, I do not think there's a compelling argument in environmental impact terms in choosing streaming over physical media.


Not so long ago when circuit boards had more discrete components, they'd be shipped to 3rd world countries. Child laborers would lay a board on a hot plate, and use their bare hands to quickly pull off resistors, capacitors, et cetera before they were damaged by the heat. Those components could then be reused. Now everything is highly integrated into 2 or 3 chips for the entire board, with very few discrete components. That makes the entire board both irreparable, and unreusable.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

One thing is for certain. I waited too long to upgrade/replace my ailing CD player. I was set on buying the Marantz CD6007 but the price has skyrocketed from $500 to $800. With the lasting ill effects of the pandemic I don't see things improving anytime soon.


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## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

progmatist said:


> Not so long ago when circuit boards had more discrete components, they'd be shipped to 3rd world countries. Child laborers would lay a board on a hot plate, and use their bare hands to quickly pull off resistors, capacitors, et cetera before they were damaged by the heat. Those components could then be reused. Now everything is highly integrated into 2 or 3 chips for the entire board, with very few discrete components. That makes the entire board both irreparable, and unreusable.


That's still repairable IF the ICs are still available, the manufacturer allows repair techs to buy the ICs and the manufacturer doesn't pull any tricks to prevent 3rd party repairers from replacing parts e.g. the ICs requiring replacement ICs to have a particular address or else brick the system.

Anyway, physical media .. I was at my local record shop today - the last of several - for the first time in years. The classical section was less than a metre wide. Most of that was taken up with "essentials" own brand CDs with the rest of the space only having a few crossover CDs and a couple of CDs or so for a small selection of composers and a few more soloist repertoire CDs. The high street isn't helping itself with its race to the bottom.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

FrankE said:


> That's still repairable IF the ICs are still available, the manufacturer allows repair techs to buy the ICs and the manufacturer doesn't pull any tricks to prevent 3rd party repairers from replacing parts e.g. the ICs requiring replacement ICs to have a particular address or else brick the system.


Also assuming the ICs weren't surface mounted by a machine. If they were, even a NASA spec certified solderer would have a difficult time replacing them. If it was possible at all, the man hours alone would cost more than the board is worth.



FrankE said:


> Anyway, physical media .. I was at my local record shop today - the last of several - for the first time in years. The classical section was less than a metre wide. Most of that was taken up with "essentials" own brand CDs with the rest of the space only having a few crossover CDs and a couple of CDs or so for a small selection of composers and a few more soloist repertoire CDs. The high street isn't helping itself with its race to the bottom.


Even online retailers are trimming their inventory. A musician on another forum said CDBaby contacted him, telling him he'd either have to pay shipping to have his CDs returned to him, or they'd be disposed of them.


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