# Proof that "Also Sprach Zarathustra" is evil



## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I play a lot of classical music to my 3-month old son. He doesn't seem to mind, he rather seems to enjoy it all. But today, I decided to play "Also Sprach Zarathustra" by R. Strauss. I decided to emphasize the notes by air conducting the beginning of the piece to him.

His reaction, as the introduction began: From happiness and smiling to enthusiastic interest to wary insecurity to confusion to terror to outright painful crying! Naturally I had to stop and comfort him, but now we have absolute proof of what we suspected all along: this piece is EVIL.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Xaltotun said:


> I play a lot of classical music to my 3-month old son. He doesn't seem to mind, he rather seems to enjoy it all. But today, I decided to play "Also Sprach Zarathustra" by R. Strauss. I decided to emphasize the notes by air conducting the beginning of the piece to him.
> 
> His reaction, as the introduction began: From happiness and smiling to enthusiastic interest to wary insecurity to confusion to terror to outright painful crying! Naturally I had to stop and comfort him, but now we have absolute proof of what we suspected all along: this piece is EVIL.


Maybe he was crying toward the end because all of the good stuff in the pieces happens in the first two minutes or so and leaves little for you at the end...


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Now, are you being serious or is it a joke? I don't like Nietzsche and his philosophy myself (I am reading his "Antichrist" at the moment, and so far it confirms all its bad reputation. Pretty poisonous stuff.), but Strauss' music being evil... I think that is a bit of an exaggeration.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Now, are you being serious or is it a joke? I don't like Nietzsche and his philosophy myself (I am reading his "Antichrist" at the moment, and so far it confirms all its bad reputation. Pretty poisonous stuff.), but Strauss' music being evil... I think that is a bit of an exaggeration.


It's not a bit of an exaggeration,it's nonsense.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> It's not a bit of an exaggeration,it's nonsense.




At 3 months there is a lot of primitive Homo sapiens in control. The beginning of 'Also Sprach' may be close enough to a big beastie's growl to set off alarms. Getting eaten may not be _evil_, but it it's on the other end of the scale from Cheerios.


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## BlazeGlory (Jan 16, 2013)

Xaltotun said:


> I play a lot of classical music to my 3-month old son. He doesn't seem to mind, he rather seems to enjoy it all. But today, I decided to play "Also Sprach Zarathustra" by R. Strauss. I decided to emphasize the notes by air conducting the beginning of the piece to him.
> 
> His reaction, as the introduction began: From happiness and smiling to enthusiastic interest to wary insecurity to confusion to terror to outright painful crying! Naturally I had to stop and comfort him, but now we have absolute proof of what we suspected all along: this piece is EVIL.


You really should be careful. You could be getting a call from the Child Protection Services.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm curious if this was just the opening section or if it was later in the piece. I'd guess a 3 month old wouldn't stay focused for the entire piece, but you never know. Maybe the timpani were too much like thunder.

I tend to have that reaction to the rest of the piece. There are some wonderful moments, then they change radically after just 8 bars or so, then on to something else. It kind of makes me nervous. I think Death and Transfiguration has more flow and a bigger payoff. I still listen to Zarathustra once in a while, I just think it is one of the most puzzling anticlimactic works in the repertoire.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Mmmmmmm, i wonder if there are other uses for this Strauss discovery ,,,, maybe as a miltary weapon


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xaltotun said:


> I play a lot of classical music to my 3-month old son. He doesn't seem to mind, he rather seems to enjoy it all. But today, I decided to play "Also Sprach Zarathustra" by R. Strauss. I decided to emphasize the notes by air conducting the beginning of the piece to him.
> 
> His reaction, as the introduction began: From happiness and smiling to enthusiastic interest to wary insecurity to confusion to terror to outright painful crying! Naturally I had to stop and comfort him, but now we have absolute proof of what we suspected all along: this piece is EVIL.


How do we know he was not reacting to his primary parent, acting strangely, waving arms about like a crazy man, and that the music, to the infant, was merely a supportive sound track, as in a film, incidentally further coloring his perceptions of the wild man waving his arms at him vs. your picking him up, cuddling, playing and talking normally?

Really, I find the notion of doing such a thing more adult vanity than having anything to do with the welfare or development of the child. May hate all Strauss or music in general from what you've done. May have some slight but pervasive fear that Dad is off the rails for the rest of his life.

Good one 

Then again, maybe that three month old infant already has the inherent good taste to not care for R. Strauss....

But hey, your kid, not mine.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

On Halloween, I used to play Tomita's arrangement of Night on Bald Mountain for my kids and godchildren (they were quite young). Hoo boy, were they scared! But they enjoyed it -- I think.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> On Halloween, I used to play Tomita's arrangement of Night on Bald Mountain for my kids and godchildren (they were quite young). Hoo boy, were they scared! But they enjoyed it -- I think.


LOL! My Niece told me she began reading Babar to her daughter, and only after she had started then recalled that early in the story, *[spoiler alert!]* Babar's mother is murdered by hunters!

She became very worried about frightening or disturbing her daughter (age four and a half at the time) with that story element, thought about how she might leave it out, realized she couldn't, and just went chapter by chapter, the usual bedtime story routine.

When the story did get to the point where Babar's mother was killed, she told me her daughter 'was _thrilled,_' and Mum was a bit confounded and more than surprised.

Younger, and the thought of anyone losing their mother -- or realizing the concept that you could lose your mother -- could upset a child endlessly. A bit older, and the world of adventure without the parents (it is stock in trade in children's stories) more than thrills 

Most of us love a good fright, as long as we understand it is not real, or at least, 'safe.'

"I'll have a first-row balcony seat to watch that tornado, please, as long as I know it won't harm me in the slightest."

A friend of mine had just moved, with her husband, from her home town when within a month or two later, a tornado ripped through that home town, leaving her with several dozen of friends she had since early childhood dead and gone in a trice. Don't think she will by buying a seat to that safe tornado show any time soon....


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2013)

Xaltotun said:


> I play a lot of classical music to my 3-month old son. He doesn't seem to mind, he rather seems to enjoy it all. But today, I decided to play "Also Sprach Zarathustra" by R. Strauss. I decided to emphasize the notes by air conducting the beginning of the piece to him.
> 
> His reaction, as the introduction began: From happiness and smiling to enthusiastic interest to wary insecurity to confusion to terror to outright painful crying! Naturally I had to stop and comfort him, but now we have absolute proof of what we suspected all along: this piece is EVIL.


Music cannot be EVIL. It is a language of notes and a system of meaning in sound which cannot possibly contain the element of evil, which is a human construct. Music is not sentient, but it's receivers/audiences are. Furthermore, the musicians who interpret that music cannot be evil either, unless using it for deliberately evil purposes - even then, it isn't the music.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

^ You havn't heard my music then.................


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2013)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> ^ You havn't heard my music then.................


Young Eddie, do we have to? Don't get me wrong: I'd much rather listen to your music than grill my lamb chops for dinner, which is what my hubby is waiting for this minute while I'm busy "reading important stuff on the internet about the share market today" (cough).

Auf weidersehen - it's the chop or THE chop for me. Bis bald.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

^ glad the share market (cough), is keeping you amused!

slight edit to spelling........


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

The opening of this actually accompanied the most frightening nightmare I have ever had. Still makes me nervous.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Wouldn't say it's evil. Just plain boring. It must be some of the most boring music Strauss ever wrote when you get past the beginning.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Wouldn't say it's evil. Just plain boring. It must be some of the most boring music Strauss ever wrote when you get past the beginning.


Boring until you listen to it everyday for a while and get to know it really well. Then when you realize the beginning is actually the boring part (decent introduction, but musically uninteresting) the rest of it becomes so fascinating that you just want to keep listening to it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Kopachris said:


> Boring until you listen to it everyday for a while and get to know it really well. Then when you realize the beginning is actually the boring part (decent introduction, but musically uninteresting) the rest of it becomes so fascinating that you just want to keep listening to it.


Must say I've never had the patience to get to know it well. I've switched off long before the end.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Wouldn't say it's evil. Just plain boring. It must be some of the most boring music Strauss ever wrote when you get past the beginning.


Really? I think it's one of his best.

Also, what is wrong with Neitzche?


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

Uhm. I think it was a 'joke' from Xaltotun, an attempt to create a fun and unserious thread.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Woah, a lot of replies! I cannot personally answer to everyone but Ravndal got it right - while this indeed happened in real life, it was totally an attempt to create a fun and unserious thread, nothing more. The "evil" part was about the Nietzsche connotations and perhaps the seriousness of the opening section, perhaps also a reference to that film by Kubrick. I know that my child got frightened because I acted strangely and I regret it, maybe I should have smiled more while doing it, etc. But yeah, humor and subtlety is really hard to do in the Internet...


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Xaltotun said:


> Woah, a lot of replies! I cannot personally answer to everyone but Ravndal got it right - while this indeed happened in real life, it was totally an attempt to create a fun and unserious thread, nothing more. The "evil" part was about the Nietzsche connotations and perhaps the seriousness of the opening section, perhaps also a reference to that film by Kubrick. I know that my child got frightened because I acted strangely and I regret it, maybe I should have smiled more while doing it, etc. But yeah, humor and subtlety is really hard to do in the Internet...


60% of our communication is body language, 20% vocal tonality and the rest 20% is the verbal content.
So there are always people who misunderstand you in the internet.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

jani said:


> 60% of our communication is body language, 20% vocal tonality and the rest 20% is the verbal content.
> So there are always people who misunderstand you in the internet.


"You can say that again, Mr. Hat!"


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

And I guess that if Your son is a true Finn with Sisu and all that, it means that he should be able to tackle Koskenkorva and the Evil of music and the Sauna at that age, or people will take him for a "pehmeä Ruotsin"* 

/ptr

* a soft swede...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

violadude said:


> Really? I think it's one of his best.
> 
> Also, what is wrong with Neitzche?


My comments on Strauss' Zarathustra could also be applied to Neitzche.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

Poe's law states:
Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of fundamentalism that someone won't mistake for the real thing.​
The core of Poe's law is that a parody of something extreme by nature becomes impossible to differentiate from sincere extremism. A corollary of Poe's law is the reverse phenomenon: sincere fundamentalist beliefs being mistaken for a parody of that belief.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ptr said:


> * a soft swede...


Can't resist. A Finn was standing looking up at a flagpole. A Swede walked by and said, "Whatcha doing there?"

The Finn answered, "I'm trying to estimate the height of this flagpole."

"Here," said the Swede, "let me help you." He pulled out a wrench, removed one bolt from the base, and lowered the flagpole flat on the ground. He then took out a measuring tape and measured it. "Forty-two feet three inches," he said. He put the flagpole back up and walked away.

"Dumb Swede," said the Finn. "I wanted to know how tall it was, not how long."


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## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

That Xaltotun's thread is a mere "joke" is quite obvious, but I like PerB's "scientific" approach to this thread's promise.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Chrythes said:


> That Xaltotun's thread is a mere "joke" is quite obvious, but I like PerB's "scientific" approach to this thread's promise.


With some of the loons you get here nothing is obvious !!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Half tongue in cheek reply here. Xaltotun, Zarathustra or anything like that is too early for your bub. YOu gotta put on something like this:










Actually among the first things I heard was music by Mozart and other 'classics' which is what my parents listened to. But they listened to non classical too which was probably more intense than Zarathustra in parts (Pink Floyd or Led Zepellin?)...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Maybe he was crying toward the end because all of the good stuff in the pieces happens in the first two minutes or so and leaves little for you at the end...


Yeah & as regards the famous fanfare begining, Herr Strauss was dead but after it was so famously used in Kubrick's '2001: A Space Odyessy' I bet that the heirs to his estate where rolling in the cash which came in as sales of the LP of Zarathustra must have surely skyrocketed? Would be interesting to find out. I know for a fact that that same movie propelled an up to then little known Hungarian composer called Ligeti to becoming much more widely known by listeners than before - prior to that he was mainly known by cognescenti of new 'cutting edge' music.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> ^ You havn't heard my music then.................


Whatever it is, it is just a bunch of arranged pitches, or non-specific tones, to be more complete. No way can they, on their own, represent anything except 'something which seems meaningful,' yet without any other connotation -- because they are 'just notes.'

Now, a priori color the listener's perception with a verbal title, or add a spoken or sung text, then you might be able to achieve an illusion the piece is evil, good, etc. and at least have something more realistic and substantial to say the music is this, or that.

Still, if the title is neutral, 'Name of form,' or 'Piano and string quartet,' the only thing you've got to evoke anything are notes, which inherently have no literal meaning.

Short of accompaniment to a vocal part with text, or as accompaniment to a visual presentation (film, alongside artwork or images) music can convey nothing literal at all, including 'evil' or any such abstract verbal idea.

If that is your goal, i.e. 'evil' music, I think you have a lifetime challenge in front of you.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Whatever it is, it is just a bunch of arranged pitches, or non-specific tones, to be more complete. No way can they, on their own, represent anything except 'something which seems meaningful,' yet without any other connotation -- because they are 'just notes.'
> 
> Now, a priori color the listener's perception with a verbal title, or add a spoken or sung text, then you might be able to achieve an illusion the piece is evil, good, etc. and at least have something more realistic and substantial to say the music is this, or that.
> 
> ...


Probably yes to all the above- check out my blog.......
I like a challenge. I would have to say others have been there before me - thrash metal etc..........
I like to call it MOMD (Music Of Mass Destruction)


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

ptr said:


> And I guess that if Your son is a true Finn with Sisu and all that, it means that he should be able to tackle Koskenkorva and the Evil of music and the Sauna at that age, or people will take him for a "pehmeä Ruotsin"*
> 
> /ptr
> 
> * a soft swede...


You know our rule on Ice hockey?
It doesn't matter if we win, all that matters is that we beat sweden:lol:.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I bet that the heirs to his estate where rolling in the cash which came in as sales of the LP of Zarathustra must have surely skyrocketed?


Zarathustra is way out of copyright, so the Strauss heirs would likely receive nothing. I assume that the soundtrack label (Silva America) and the uncredited Karajan and his Weinerboys may have done quite well.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Zarathustra is way out of copyright, so the Strauss heirs would likely receive nothing. I assume that the soundtrack label (Silva America) and the uncredited Karajan and his Weinerboys may have done quite well.


John Culshaw told the story that when the film 2001 was made someone from Decca insisted that the recording used (Karajan's) was uncredited. He thought this was an example of English tact and modesty gone wrong. Karajan was livid at the potential loss in sales and threatened to sue Decca.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Half tongue in cheek reply here. Xaltotun, Zarathustra or anything like that is too early for your bub. YOu gotta put on something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually I'm playing a lot of Mozart to him - it's a cliche, I know, and all the "Mozart makes your kid intelligent" stuffs are silly, but still, it's an obvious choice to play to a very young person! He actually "sings" when I play Mozart. I take it he likes it!


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

ptr said:


> And I guess that if Your son is a true Finn with Sisu and all that, it means that he should be able to tackle Koskenkorva and the Evil of music and the Sauna at that age, or people will take him for a "pehmeä Ruotsin"*
> 
> /ptr
> 
> * a soft swede...


If he can't take 15 seconds of music made by a curly-haired Viennese guy who probably took whipped cream with every thing he ate and drank, he ain't no true Finn yet! But he sleeps quite well on the balcony at sub-zero temperatures, so there's still hope.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

jani said:


> You know our rule on Ice hockey?
> It doesn't matter if we win, all that matters is that we beat sweden:lol:.


Personally I don't care for team sports at all!, but I believe that the Swede's think the same way, but the other way around... 

/ptr


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

ptr said:


> Personally I don't care for team sports at all!, but I believe that the Swede's think the same way, but the other way around...
> 
> /ptr


Well i am not keen into sports either but enjoy our duels.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Xaltotun said:


> If he can't take 15 seconds of music made by a curly-haired Viennese guy who probably took whipped cream with every thing he ate and drank, he ain't no true Finn yet! But he sleeps quite well on the balcony at sub-zero temperatures, so there's still hope.


Does he like Metal?


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

jani said:


> Does he like Metal?


It's inevitable that he will, at some point or other! It's rather unavoidable in Finland, as you well know


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Xaltotun said:


> this piece is EVIL


the intro is good, all the rest is evil.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Xaltotun said:


> Actually I'm playing a lot of Mozart to him - it's a cliche, I know, and all the "Mozart makes your kid intelligent" stuffs are silly, but still, it's an obvious choice to play to a very young person! He actually "sings" when I play Mozart. I take it he likes it!


Yeah its wierd how I have continued to like those Mozart warhorses my parents played (the usual suspects, Eine Kliene, etc) and they did it ad nauseum cos they didn't have that many recordings. But most of what they played I still like, maybe its that aspect of nostalgia for days past, for childhood?



Xaltotun said:


> If he can't take 15 seconds of music made by a curly-haired Viennese guy who probably took whipped cream with every thing he ate and drank, he ain't no true Finn yet! But he sleeps quite well on the balcony at sub-zero temperatures, so there's still hope.


Well if you mean Herr Strauss he was not Viennese, he was Cherman, from Munich. Not as refined as the Viennese. Beer swilling. Better play the dance of the seven veils which even Strauss described as deliberately vulgar and titillating - but the eye candy visual bit better to avoid exposing the bub to...till later...maybe...just don't show him the bit where she kisses the decapitated head of St. John...now is that evil?...That reminds me to go and listen to it again...NOT.

*Disclaimer: All ethnic stereotypes in this post are a joke. Hold your fire guys please.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Zarathustra is way out of copyright, so the Strauss heirs would likely receive nothing. I assume that the soundtrack label (Silva America) and the uncredited Karajan and his Weinerboys may have done quite well.


Strauss only died in 1949, the film was made in 1969. I thought copyright is good until 50 years (might be 75 as of recent times, in the US at least) after the author's death. I should image a fair whack of fees were paid. Probably to the Strauss Estate, and to Decca too.
Don't think there's any rule about having to publicly credit Karajan, or the orchestra, or anyone, but still gotta pay the cash.
cheers,
GG


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Well if you mean Herr Strauss he was not Viennese, he was Cherman, from Munich. Not as refined as the Viennese. Beer swilling.


Oh! Now that ruins my joke, doesn't it? Should've checked first. Maybe my son isn't such a sissy after all, he was scared off by a lederhosen-wearing, beer-swilling real man, whose curly hairline was already declining in a macho way, and hey, Siegfried was probably curly-haired, too. And John Rambo.


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