# The TC 100 Top-Recommended Operas Project



## jhar26

We got the idea for this thread from our member 'Toccata' on the 'List of 100 Greatest Operas' thread (link below).

http://www.talkclassical.com/10884-list-100-greatest-operas-5.html

The idea is that our membership would try to reach some kind of consensus as to what the 100 greatest operas in history are. Something that I expect will be mission impossible, but it could nevertheless be an interesting exercise. People who would like to have more info as to why we're doing this can find out by reading the mentionned thread.

And I know from experience that some people don't like lists and polls. Fine, we are aware of that, but nobody is obligated to participate in them. So, if you feel the need - please post your objections on that other thread and let's keep this one for those people who think that this one might be fun.


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## jhar26

For starters, let's try to establish what we as a group consider to be the top 10 operas of all time. Here's Almaviva's list..............

1. The Ring of the Nibelung
2. Les Troyens
3. Tristan und Isolde
4. The Marriage of Figaro
5. Otello
6. La Boheme
7. Don Giovanni
8. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
9. Norma
10. La Traviata 

......Discuss. Which ones on this list can everyone agree with?


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## Almaviva

Hmm... let's see... OK, I got it: I can agree with all of them, in the exact same order.

Thanks for taking my top 10 as the initial suggestion. Please allow me to defend my choice a little bit.

First of all, we need to try and define why we consider some operas to be the greatest. I guess it has to do with a number of characteristics, more or less weighty depending on individual values. But beauty in my opinion should definitely be one of them. Of course beauty is in the eyes (or ears) of the beholder, and while some people find extreme beauty in melodious Bel Canto or Baroque, others can't stand the sound of a harpsichord and find beauty in dissonant/atonal works. Nevertheless, how can we ever avoid the "beauty" part in such selections?

Innovation should also be a consideration. Operas that belong to a certain movement or era and don't really do much to advance the artform have their place as well - they may derive their place from the "beauty" part - but there is something to be said for those that are divisors of waters... think of Monteverdi as one of the pionners, of Gluck changing the ways of opera seria, of Mozart's spectacular orchestration, of Verdi evolving from aria numbers to scenes to through composition, of Wagner introducing musical dramas and shifting the direction of music in Tristan & Isolde, of R. Strauss oscilating between tradition and modernism, of the New Vienna School again turning music into a new direction, etc.

Lasting popularity is another consideration. What is popular is not always equal to what is good - McDonald's is popular but I'd still prefer a gourmet restaurant anytime I can afford one - but again, there is something to be said for lasting popularity, in the fact that such operas are not just a product of time-limited fashion but endure because they reach some sort of truth or some sort of expressive connectivity with the audience that make them be heard over and over. In other words, these operas have passed the test of time.

Cultural identity is another one - and one thinks of what can be said to be authentic Russian opera, Italian opera, German/Austrian opera, French opera, etc. Certainly we're bond to select in the list of 100, operas that are not widely known but are vigorous regional examples that aren't better diffused thanks to language barriers, niche admirers, etc - which doesn't mean they aren't good enough to be included. 

Libretti are also important. Great music has been set to rather ridiculous plots, and some operas survive their bad libretti, but it does help when libretti are top quality as well - which relates to the literary value of the source, the poetry of the librettist, the talent in dealing with this special medium in which it takes a lot longer to tell a story because the story is being sung rather than spoken. A Boito, a Da Ponte certainly add to operas and may raise their final rankings in our lists.

Many will probably suggest very obscure operas. I don't doubt they may be very good, but I'd like strong evidence that they belong in a list of 100 greatest rather than in one of interesting works to be explored, but that don't quite exhibit all the qualities necessary to belong in such a list. I'm afraid of a certain fascination for the obscure or the new, before these works really and truly prove their mettle. It's like certain food critics who quote small restaurants and grant them some grade inflation, as opposed to those of celebrated chefs. I think a certain consensus is important in a list like this. There are many fine operas out there that aren't known to the wide public but to say that they are among the 100 greatest in my humble opinion would be stretching it a little, for the lack of this consensual quality. Anyway, that's just my opinion, others may feel radically differently about this, and that's why this thread may become interesting because I'd love to read arguments pro and con the inclusion of some operas. At the very least, this will make us more familiar with more obscure works.

So, let's see my initial suggestion, how do I defend these ten?

1. The Ring of the Nibelung - for its scope and ambition and long-reaching arc and its sublime moments, in spite of some longueurs.
2. Les Troyens - one of the most underrated operas ever, a sublime masterpiece with a sense of History and the everlasting battle between love and duty, coupled with astounding music, including phenomenal chorus music, in a tight packet in which nothing is superfluous or unnecessary in spite of its length.
3. Tristan und Isolde - for the sheer beauty of its score and scenes, and the lasting impact on Western music of its innovative approach
4. The Marriage of Figaro - For the brilliance of the orchestration, spectacular pace, large number of outstanding arias, exquisite libretto
5. Otello - for the psychological depth, impactuous defining moment, powerful written through composition, outstanding libretto
6. La Boheme - for the romanticism, soaring melody, touching moments, and general addressing of the question of youthful passions and life in the moment
7. Don Giovanni - for being so wickedly entertaining and tracing so well the arc between light humor and serious drama from beginning to end, as well as the same above mentioned orchestration and libretto qualities of the pair Mozart-Da Ponte
8. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg - for one of the most extraordinary characters in all of opera (Hans Sachs), for the love of music expressed in it both in musical and dramatic terms
9. Norma - Casta Diva. Enough said. That's maybe the peak of beauty in all of opera.
10. La Traviata - OK, this one I believe will be controversial to include as high as top ten, but I stick to my guns here. Lasting popularity is a given, but it's not all. It's also the evolution to scenes rather than arias, the precision of its musical construction (the first act is a thing of beauty in its precise tone panting, the Germont-Violetta scene with its subtle psychological progression fully expressed in the music is another one), the profound shift in tematic, bringing in regular people with regular psychological issues rather than historical or mythological subjects, and lets not forget the beauty of its arias and overture/intermezzo.

I'm looking forward to hearing about other people's top ten and why they list them in there.


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## World Violist

I second the Ring cycle, Tristan, and Meistersinger (more the first two than the last). The others are out of my comfort zone, so to speak. I think other than this post I'll wait for a little while until we pursue the top 100.

If I might be so bold as to suggest the possibility of plugging for Oedipe for the top 10, however... I'd love to.

Oh, but now I have to defend it. Ok. I don't know where to start. As far as beauty goes, this is one of the most lavishly orchestrated music I've ever heard, tonal with dissonances that are still unbelievably beautiful. As for the libretto, it's the only controversial thing about it. As for popularity, people around the forums might not know about this opera, but it's enjoyed a cult following since the day it premiered. The drama is palpable throughout, and there are many scenes that are particularly bone-chilling (the sphinx's death, Oedipus arriving at his death site, etc.). The third act culminates in an enormous climax that the entire opera has been leading up to, and it truly delivers, while the fourth act is the beautiful catharsis, all played out by Enescu's masterly sense of unfolding drama and musical development. Also, for those into this sort of thing, the play of leitmotifs is so complex as to be almost impossible to follow, but it is able to be listened to at any level and still be very accessible and dramatic. Indeed, many professional critics had no idea about the leitmotif system employed until studying the score intensively. So I'd push this opera for the top 10, but don't mind if it doesn't make it as long as it's in the final 100.


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## Almaviva

World Violist said:


> I second the Ring cycle, Tristan, and Meistersinger (more the first two than the last). The others are out of my comfort zone, so to speak. I think other than this post I'll wait for a little while until we pursue the top 100.
> 
> If I might be so bold as to suggest the possibility of plugging for Oedipe for the top 10, however... I'd love to.


Are you talking about Oedipus Rex? Is it really an opera?


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## World Violist

Almaviva said:


> Are you talking about Oedipus Rex? Is it really an opera?


No, I'm talking about Enescu's Oedipe. I've expanded my previous post talking about it.


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## jhar26

Just a thought.....Should we consider the Ring as one opera? I guess we should, but one could also argue that they are four operas and that each one of them should be judged on it's own merits. Best to get that issue out of the way now.


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## World Violist

jhar26 said:


> Just a thought.....Should we consider the Ring as one opera? I guess we should, but one could also argue that they are four operas and that each one of them should be judged on it's own merits. Best to get that issue out of the way now.


I vote one opera. After all, it is a single story all the way through, a single concept. I'd just as soon call it an opera in three nights with a prelude night. Or something like that. It also started out as a single opera.


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## sospiro

I'm going to have to do serious thinking before I contribute in a meaningful way, because I know my _favourites_ aren't in any way the _greatest_.


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## jhar26

sospiro said:


> I'm going to have to do serious thinking before I contribute in a meaningful way, because I know my _favourites_ aren't in any way the _greatest_.


The most difficult thing about this thing is going to find some consensus. Nobody is going to be completely happy with the end result, but we should aim for something that all of us can at least be reasonably happy with. So we're all gonna have to compromise a bit. Everyone's taste should be represented.


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## Chi_townPhilly

jhar26 said:


> The idea is that our membership would try to reach some kind of consensus as to what the 100 greatest operas in history are. Something that I expect will be mission impossible, but it could nevertheless be an interesting exercise.


Ah, consensus-building. Not always easy... but worth trying if taken in the spirit of co-operation.

On account of this, I make two proposals- 1) limit objections to what we feel are absolute, non-negotiable (to us) positions, and 2) after agreeing on a set of 10, have ANOTHER user (preferably not a Staffer, but we'll serve if no-one else is nominated) come up with the next set of 10. Then, after that set's fleshed out, another user (who hasn't gone before) can offer up another set of 10, and so on.

And in that spirit of co-operation, I will register no objections to any of the first 10 nominated (as I think they're all worthy of mention on a top 100 list), except to say this much-

*No list of top-10 operas should exclude Carmen*... period.

As to what it would replace- doesn't matter too much to me, as long as it's not a Wagner work.

(Also in the spirit of compromise, I'll go along with calling the _Ring_ one opera, 
especially seeing as how you'all were nice enough to place it first.)


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## World Violist

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Ah, consensus-building. Not always easy... but worth trying if taken in the spirit of co-operation.
> 
> On account of this, I make two proposals- 1) limit objections to what we feel are absolute, non-negotiable (to us) positions, and 2) after agreeing on a set of 10, have ANOTHER user (preferably not a Staffer, but we'll serve if no-one else is nominated) come up with the next set of 10. Then, after that set's fleshed out, another user (who hasn't gone before) can offer up another set of 10, and so on.
> 
> And in that spirit of co-operation, I will register no objections to any of the first 10 nominated (as I think they're all worthy of mention on a top 100 list), except to say this much-
> 
> *No list of top-10 operas should exclude Carmen*... period.
> 
> As to what it would replace- doesn't matter too much to me, as long as it's not a Wagner work.
> 
> (Also in the spirit of compromise, I'll go along with calling the _Ring_ one opera,
> especially seeing as how you'all were nice enough to place it first.)


I like these ideas... only problem I'm going to have is actually picking 10 operas, but I feel like I'll be able to remedy my problem fairly soon, unless, of course, someone takes the operas I've got in mind.


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## Almaviva

Ring = one opera. Just like Les Troyens is one although it's been staged in two nights - Troy and Carthage

Carmen in my opinion: top 20 but not top 10.


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## Poppin' Fresh

Almaviva said:


> Ring = one opera. Just like Les Troyens is one although it's been staged in two nights - Troy and Carthage


Well. Debatable I suppose. It's usually referred to as a tetralogy, Wagner described it as a trilogy with _Das Rheingold_ being a preliminary evening. Whether a trilogy or tetralogy is a set of individual works that are connected, or one single work is the question. I tend to lean towards the former, as each opera has a distinct musical character and dramatic quality of it's own. Each can be put on in stand alone performances, even if it's best if they are seen together. I wouldn't call the Godfather trilogy one film either, as each film has it's own complete story arch, different characters, a different feel.

But for ease and efficiency in a project like this I'm definitely fine with labeling the tetralogy as one opera.


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## jhar26

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Ah, consensus-building. Not always easy... but worth trying if taken in the spirit of co-operation.
> 
> On account of this, I make two proposals- 1) limit objections to what we feel are absolute, non-negotiable (to us) positions, and 2) after agreeing on a set of 10, have ANOTHER user (preferably not a Staffer, but we'll serve if no-one else is nominated) come up with the next set of 10. Then, after that set's fleshed out, another user (who hasn't gone before) can offer up another set of 10, and so on.


How about everyone of us nominating ONE opera? Depending on how many people participate we could end up with anything from, say, six to fifteen nominees. After that we could discuss the ranking order of those nominated operas. And we could keep repeating the process until we've got a top 100. By doing it that way everyone's taste would be represented throughout the entire top 100.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Poppin' Fresh said:


> ...each opera has a distinct musical character and dramatic quality of its own. Each can be put on in stand alone performances, even if it's best if they are seen together.


Of course, I don't disagree.

However (as an example) the 'Top 60 Operas' list in the Harmony Illustrated Encyclopedia of Classical Music counted them as separate operas, and left _Götterdämmerung_ out of their top-60!


Almaviva said:


> Carmen in my opinion: top 20 but not top 10.


Just lobbying for a little compromise, that's all. 
I think _Carmen_ could substitute for _Norma_ and do no great vandalism to the list...


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## sospiro

Am a bit confused (happens a lot)

Will we end up with a list with No. 1 regarded as the best ever opera of all times as chosen/voted for by us and No. 100 a good one but not that good? Or just 100 great operas in any order?


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## Poppin' Fresh

sospiro said:


> Am a bit confused (happens a lot)
> 
> Will we end up with a list with No. 1 regarded as the best ever opera of all times as chosen/voted for by us and No. 100 a good one but not that good? Or just 100 great operas in any order?


I'm a bit confused myself. I'm thinking that we are to create a list of 100 operas based on user nominations. Then we do a user vote to determine the order. But maybe not...


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## jhar26

sospiro said:


> Am a bit confused (happens a lot)
> 
> Will we end up with a list with No. 1 regarded as the best ever opera of all times as chosen/voted for by us and No. 100 a good one but not that good? Or just 100 great operas in any order?


The idea is to have a No.1, a No.100 and everything inbetween. We're still in the negotiating stage over the formula we're gonna use.  No problem - we're not in a hurry. The most important thing is that everyone can be happy with it.


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## sospiro

jhar26 said:


> The idea is to have a No.1, a No.100 and everything inbetween. We're still in the negotiating stage over the formula we're gonna use.  No problem - we're not in a hurry. The most important thing is that everyone can be happy with it.


Okey dokes


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## Guest

While generating ten lists of ten operas would give us a total of one hundred operas, I'm curious as to why that seems the most efficient way to go about it. Maybe it's my background in writing, where you produce a hundred pages of raw text to whittle down to ten pages of pure gold. (And, apparently, with no fear of mixed metaphors, either!)

That is, at least, the easiest way to produce ten pages of deathless prose. Produce more than ten (and a hundred would be excessive!) and then cut.

And why one hundred? Out of the tens of thousands of operas there are, are there really a hundred that are "the best"? Couldn't the number equally be 83 or 267 or even 1,134? How about we each propose some nice operas (and without fashing ourselves about ranking, which will just rankle, I fear) and see how many we come up with?

And another thing. What's the likelihood that the TC 100 will consist entirely of operas everyone already knows? (The extent to which that is true is the extent to which such an exercise is just a way for each person to parade his or her taste, not a place where anyone will learn anything.) So we've got Berlioz' _Les Troyens_ on the first list of ten, and _Benvenuto Cellini,_ which is the more innovative of the two, and thus the one that repays repeated listenings more, possibly not getting even into the sacred top one hundred, simply if hardly anyone here knows it.

With all that in mind, here is a list of operas (and some perhaps less than "operatic" music theater) that have rocked me back on my heels--other than the ones already mentioned.

Berlioz, _Benvenuto Cellini_
Berlioz, _Béatrice et Bénédict_
Saint-Saens, _Samson et Delila_
Schoenberg, _Moses und Aron_
Berg, _Wozzeck_
Berg,_ Lulu_
Krenek, _Jonny spielt auf_
Janácek, _Osud_
Janácek, _Cunning Little Vixen_
Janácek, _Katya Kabanova_
Janácek, _The Makropolus Case_
Janácek, _From the House of the Dead_
Prokofiev, _Love for Three Oranges_
Prokofiev, _Semyon Kotko_
Prokofiev, _Betrothal in a Monastery_
Prokofiev, _War & Peace_
Shostakovich, _The Nose_
Shostakovich, _Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District_
Partch, _Delusion of the Fury_
Partch, _Revelation in the Courthouse Park_
Feldman, _Neither_
Cage, _Europeras_ (4)
Ligeti, _Le Grande Macabre_
Maderna, _Satyricon_
Nørgård, _Nuit des Hommes_
Goebbels, _Ou bien le débarquement désastreux_
Goebbels, _Eraritjaritjaka, museum of phrases_
Kutavičius, _Lokys_
Lachenmann, _Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern_
Azguime, _Itinerário do Sal_
The Spy Collective, _Iminami, from mother to smother_


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## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> How about everyone of us nominating ONE opera? Depending on how many people participate we could end up with anything from, say, six to fifteen nominees. After that we could discuss the ranking order of those nominated operas. And we could keep repeating the process until we've got a top 100. By doing it that way everyone's taste would be represented throughout the entire top 100.


I think that sounds like the approach most likely to succeed. And most easy to participate in. And most straightforward to manage once the list is in.


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## Almaviva

some guy said:


> While generating ten lists of ten operas would give us a total of one hundred operas, I'm curious as to why that seems the most efficient way to go about it. Maybe it's my background in writing, where you produce a hundred pages of raw text to whittle down to ten pages of pure gold. (And, apparently, with no fear of mixed metaphors, either!)
> 
> That is, at least, the easiest way to produce ten pages of deathless prose. Produce more than ten (and a hundred would be excessive!) and then cut.
> 
> And why one hundred? Out of the tens of thousands of operas there are, are there really a hundred that are "the best"? Couldn't the number equally be 83 or 267 or even 1,134? How about we each propose some nice operas (and without fashing ourselves about ranking, which will just rankle, I fear) and see how many we come up with?
> 
> And another thing. What's the likelihood that the TC 100 will consist entirely of operas everyone already knows? (The extent to which that is true is the extent to which such an exercise is just a way for each person to parade his or her taste, not a place where anyone will learn anything.) So we've got Berlioz' _Les Troyens_ on the first list of ten, and _Benvenuto Cellini,_ which is the more innovative of the two, and thus the one that repays repeated listenings more, possibly not getting even into the sacred top one hundred, simply if hardly anyone here knows it.
> 
> With all that in mind, here is a list of operas (and some perhaps less than "operatic" music theater) that have rocked me back on my heels--other than the ones already mentioned.
> 
> Berlioz, _Benvenuto Cellini_
> Berlioz, _Béatrice et Bénédict_
> Saint-Saens, _Samson et Delila_
> Schoenberg, _Moses und Aron_
> Berg, _Wozzeck_
> Berg,_ Lulu_
> Krenek, _Jonny spielt auf_
> Janácek, _Osud_
> Janácek, _Cunning Little Vixen_
> Janácek, _Katya Kabanova_
> Janácek, _The Makropolus Case_
> Janácek, _From the House of the Dead_
> Prokofiev, _Love for Three Oranges_
> Prokofiev, _Semyon Kotko_
> Prokofiev, _Betrothal in a Monastery_
> Prokofiev, _War & Peace_
> Shostakovich, _The Nose_
> Shostakovich, _Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District_
> Partch, _Delusion of the Fury_
> Partch, _Revelation in the Courthouse Park_
> Feldman, _Neither_
> Cage, _Europeras_ (4)
> Ligeti, _Le Grande Macabre_
> Maderna, _Satyricon_
> Nørgård, _Nuit des Hommes_
> Goebbels, _Ou bien le débarquement désastreux_
> Goebbels, _Eraritjaritjaka, museum of phrases_
> Kutavičius, _Lokys_
> Lachenmann, _Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern_
> Azguime, _Itinerário do Sal_
> The Spy Collective, _Iminami, from mother to smother_


Good points, some guy, and as far as I'm concerned, Benvenuto Cellini would not be left out of the top 100. I love all four Berlioz operas (and do consider La Damnation de Faust to be an opera since he did agree with staging it as an opera during his lifetime and apparently even provided some stage directions).

Why 100? It's just a round number. We have to cut it somewhere, so, why not cut it at 100? The fun with having to cut, is that we'll be forced to discuss the merits and demerits of our selections. The discussion itself is the fun and valid part of this exercise. If we just include everything that gets suggested and get to a total of 265 or something, we'll end up with a long list of notable operas, but not with a list of the 100 greatest operas. With no limit, we can accept just about anything that one or two members like. With a limit, we'll have to discuss these selections in more details, with the pros and cons of including some of them. The latter sounds to me to be more fun and more informative than the overinclusive method.

Like Gaston said, we haven't agreed on the method yet. Proceding by chunks of 10 might be an efficient way. Another way would be to do like you said, just list a large number of operas and someone tallies them and sees how many made it to the top 100. 
But there are two problems with the latter method: it's a lot more difficult to implement, and will tend to exclude some more obscure but essential operas that will get less votes. Case in point, one that you've quoted, Lady Macbeth of Mtsenk, which I consider to be one of the best operas I've ever seen. It didn't even make it into the DDD 100 list. I'd strongly advocate for its inclusion, and I think you would too, and eventually we might convince others. On the other hand, if we just all voted on our top 100 operas, probably Lady Macbeth would get your vote, my vote, a couple more, and wouldn't make the final list.

So, I'm not sure yet of what method is best, but I see with sympathy the method of going ten by ten until consensus has been reached on an accepted or at least tolerated chunk of ten, then we move to the next chunk. It could work. But people should feel free to make other methodology suggestions.


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## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> I think that sounds like the approach most likely to succeed. And most easy to participate in. And most straightforward to manage once the list is in.


The problem with that is that most people will nominate the Ring.
Unless we say - each person needs to nominate something that hasn't been nominated yet, and the person *really* feels should belong in the top 10. If there are more than ten nominated already, and a person doesn't see any that should be there instead of the ones already nominated, then that person should abstein from making another nomination, and would wait for the next chunk (11-20) to propose another opera. OK, this might work. One would not actually abstein from participating by not nominating - this would rather indicate: "OK, I can live with the ones already nominated, there is nothing that I would feel strongly that should be there above these." It may be a start for consensus building.


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## jhar26

some guy said:


> While generating ten lists of ten operas would give us a total of one hundred operas, I'm curious as to why that seems the most efficient way to go about it. Maybe it's my background in writing, where you produce a hundred pages of raw text to whittle down to ten pages of pure gold. (And, apparently, with no fear of mixed metaphors, either!)
> 
> That is, at least, the easiest way to produce ten pages of deathless prose. Produce more than ten (and a hundred would be excessive!) and then cut.
> 
> And why one hundred? Out of the tens of thousands of operas there are, are there really a hundred that are "the best"? Couldn't the number equally be 83 or 267 or even 1,134? How about we each propose some nice operas (and without fashing ourselves about ranking, which will just rankle, I fear) and see how many we come up with?
> 
> And another thing. What's the likelihood that the TC 100 will consist entirely of operas everyone already knows? (The extent to which that is true is the extent to which such an exercise is just a way for each person to parade his or her taste, not a place where anyone will learn anything.) So we've got Berlioz' _Les Troyens_ on the first list of ten, and _Benvenuto Cellini,_ which is the more innovative of the two, and thus the one that repays repeated listenings more, possibly not getting even into the sacred top one hundred, simply if hardly anyone here knows it.


That's why I've proposed to have each member who wants to participate nominate just ONE opera after which everyone can have his/her say/vote about the order in which those nominated operas should be ranked. No matter how flawed the end result will be - and it inevitably WILL BE flawed, to have a ranking order is the point - or at least the goal of this thread. I have no idea how many people will participate in this thing, but if it's for example ten people than whatever opera you would nominate would at least make the top 10. Since we would keep on repeating the process the operas that are in your opinion essential would be represented throughout the entire top 100 and the same goes for every other person that participates. It seems to me a fair way of doing it.


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## Almaviva

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Of course, I don't disagree.
> 
> However (as an example) the 'Top 60 Operas' list in the Harmony Illustrated Encyclopedia of Classical Music counted them as separate operas, and left _Götterdämmerung_ out of their top-60!Just lobbying for a little compromise, that's all.
> I think _Carmen_ could substitute for _Norma_ and do no great vandalism to the list...


Yeah, as long as both Carmen and Norma are in the top 20, it may matter less which one ends up in the top ten.


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## World Violist

I think that it might be better for everyone to just go for one opera at a time, so that those like me who couldn't make any meaningful contribution in sets of ten could just insert two or three operas and then just step back and watch the rest. Or maybe I'm just confused also?


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## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> The problem with that is that most people will nominate the Ring.
> Unless we say - each person needs to nominate something that hasn't been nominated yet.


That's what I have in mind.



> If there are more than ten nominated already, and a person doesn't see any that should be there instead of the ones already nominated, then that person should abstein from making another nomination, and would wait for the next chunk (11-20) to propose another opera.


Or we discuss and rank those nominated - no matter if there are eight, ten or fifteen participating members and thus also nominated operas.


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## Elgarian

I've scrapped this post as the one preceding it made it redundant.


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## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> That's what I have in mind.
> 
> Or we discuss and rank those nominated - no matter if there are eight, ten or fifteen participating members and thus also nominated operas.


Yes sure, I undertand that we'll likely get to more than 10... I think I didn't express myself clearly. Someone should feel free to nominate another one for top ten even if there are 15 already as long as the person does feel strongly that the nominee deserves one of the top 10 spots, but my point was, if the person looks at those 15 and thinks - I can't think of any that deserves better to be in the top 10 than any of these 15 - then the person would abstein from making a nomination. This is just to counter the natural human tendency of adding something personal, otherwise we'd end up with too many nominations for the first 10 operas just because people would feel obligated to nominate something new.

My point was to say - if your choice is already there and you don't see others more deserving *for the top 10 chunk* then don't nominate just for the sake of participating, remember that there will be other chunks of ten, later on.


----------



## Guest

Yes, I see your points all of you.

And even though it means that that excludes me from playing this game, this game is not my whole life!!

Anyway, even though there's no way I could possibly nominate any single opera to a "top ten" (any more than I could nominate any one of my sons as my "favorite"!!), you are all welcome to listen to all of the thirty odd operas I listed earlier. (Is that "thirty odd" as in "around thirty" or thirty "odd operas"?)


----------



## Elgarian

some guy said:


> this game is not my whole life!!


Well,_ now_ you're just trying to shock us!


----------



## Almaviva

some guy said:


> Yes, I see your points all of you.
> 
> And even though it means that that excludes me from playing this game, this game is not my whole life!!
> 
> Anyway, even though there's no way I could possibly nominate any single opera to a "top ten" (any more than I could nominate any one of my sons as my "favorite"!!), you are all welcome to listen to all of the thirty odd operas I listed earlier. (Is that "thirty odd" as in "around thirty" or thirty "odd operas"?)


Odd? The ones I know from your list are pretty good.


----------



## Elgarian

I'm just thinking ... if I set up another thread in which we could vote for the top ten methods of voting for the top ten operas, I could then set up another thread for voting for the top ten methods of voting for the top ten methods of voting for the top ten operas .... You see where I'm heading? We have the opportunity here to solve _all our existential problems_ at a stroke!


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Yes sure, I undertand that we'll likely get to more than 10... I think I didn't express myself clearly. Someone should feel free to nominate another one for top ten even if there are 15 already as long as the person does feel strongly that the nominee deserve one of the top 10 spots, but my point was, if the person looks at those 15 and think - I can't think of any that deserves better to be in the top 10 than any of these 15 - then the person would abstein from making a nomination. This is just to counter the natural human tendency of adding something personal, otherwise we'd end up with too many nominations for the first 10 operas just because people would feel obligated to nominate something new.
> 
> My point was to say - if your choice is already there and you don't see others more deserving *for the top 10 chunk* then don't nominate just for the sake of participating, remember that there will be other chunks of ten, later on.


Understood and agreed.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Understood and agreed.


OK, so, let's start. I nominate Berlioz's _Les Troyens.:devil:_


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> I'm just thinking ... if I set up another thread in which we could vote for the top ten methods of voting for the top ten operas, I could then set up another thread for voting for the top ten methods of voting for the top ten methods of voting for the top ten operas .... You see where I'm heading? We have the opportunity here to solve _all our existential problems_ at a stroke!


You and your logical loops... LOL:lol:


----------



## jhar26

I nominate _Le Nozze di Figaro._


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## World Violist

So this is for top 10 I assume?

I nominate Tristan und Isolde.


----------



## Almaviva

World Violist said:


> No, I'm talking about Enescu's Oedipe. I've expanded my previous post talking about it.


I saw the Opera Today review for the Jose Van Dam recording, and it was generally complimentary. I got curious, but the darn thing has only premiered in the United States in 2005, in a college. Not so easy to get a hold of.
I assume there are no DVDs, correct? Or maybe I can find a copy at House of Opera. I'll look into it, since your recommendations are always good. Or else, now that I'm equipped for region free DVD including PAL system (is it the system in Romania?) I could get adventurous and try to buy a Romanian DVD if there is one.

Edit - OK, I bought the CD from the Vienna Staat Opera, bargain price, $11.65 with shipping included. The customer reviews went berzerk about this opera. I think you may be onto something here. It will get to me in two weeks, so, I'll make sure I tell you later what I thought.


----------



## World Violist

Almaviva said:


> I saw the Opera Today review for the Jose Van Dam - Vienna Staat Opera recording, and it was generally complimentary. I got curious, but the darn thing has only premiered in the United States in 2005, in a college. Not so easy to get a hold of.
> I assume there are no DVDs, correct? Or maybe I can find a copy at House of Opera. I'll look into it, since your recommendations are always good. Or else, now that I'm equipped for region free DVD including PAL system (is it the system in Romania?) I could get adventurous and try to buy a Romanian DVD if there is one.


I'm not aware of any DVDs (not commercially, anyway). There are two relatively cheap CD sets and one not so cheap. The two cheaper ones are Lawrence Foster's classic recording for EMI (with van Dam in the title role) and Michael Gielen in a live recording (with cuts; why I don't have it) for Naxos. You can get them for roughly the same price since the Foster one was recently reissued.

EDIT: I just saw your EDIT.  Great, I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts!


----------



## Almaviva

World Violist said:


> I'm not aware of any DVDs (not commercially, anyway). There are two relatively cheap CD sets and one not so cheap. The two cheaper ones are Lawrence Foster's classic recording for EMI (with van Dam in the title role) and Michael Gielen in a live recording (with cuts; why I don't have it) for Naxos. You can get them for roughly the same price since the Foster one was recently reissued.
> 
> EDIT: I just saw your EDIT.  Great, I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts!


The Van Dam one wasn't so cheap, it was more than $30. Damn, so, I got the one with cuts? Is there a libretto in this Naxos one? That's the one I got. I could still cancel.


----------



## World Violist

Almaviva said:


> The Van Dam one wasn't so cheap, it was more than $30. Damn, so, I got the one with cuts? Is there a libretto in this Naxos one? That's the one I got. I could still cancel.


I don't think there's a libretto. The only one with the libretto is the more expensive van Dam one. Apparently you can find a libretto online or something, but I've got no idea where.

They have rereleased the van Dam one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846 still no libretto though, but it is the complete opera.


----------



## Almaviva

World Violist said:


> I don't think there's a libretto. The only one with the libretto is the more expensive van Dam one. Apparently you can find a libretto online or something, but I've got no idea where.
> 
> They have rereleased the van Dam one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846 still no libretto though, but it is the complete opera.


OK, I got an used copy of the old van Dam one with the libretto for $17, and I have cancelled the one with cuts.


----------



## Toccata

A few comments on progress so far in this project, and possible problem areas as I see it.

The idea is to finish up with a list of the 100 top operas ranked by "greatness". Thus, once completed, the No 1 opera will be considered greater than, for example, the No 14 opera, which will be considered greater than the No 67 opera etc. The "slope" of the curve is not an issue (i.e. how rapidly the quality declines at particular points on the 1-100), and nor is the exact ranking of places within any group of, say, 5.

From the deliberations I have seen thus far in this thread, there is a big danger of finishing up merely with a list of one's personal favourites. That would be a weakness because the results will obviously vary according to the membership that actually voted. Somehow or other it's going to be necessary to put aside one's purely personal opinions and to adopt an "objective" hat, by which I mean trying to see things in the round from as neutral a position as possible. Factors that might affect greatness are general popularity currently, popularity down the ages, the degree of influence that works had on later works, the esteem of the composer. If anyone cares to glance at the relevant DDD discussions, they're all there to see.

To illustrate, I prefer Baroque period opera to all later manifestations. Specifically, I prefer Purcell's Dido & Aeneas and Handel's Julius Caesar to most other operas, but I wouldn't nominate either for a top 10 position since I know, or rather sense, that that neither is generally considered to be as great as, say, DG, Le Nozze, Tristan or whatever. I have no problem making that conceptual split. It is a distinction sometimes made in other musical contexts, like one's favourite versus greatest symphonies.

"Greatness" will have to be a personal concept: what each of the participants feels happy with as an all-encapsulating indicator of the merit of individual operas in terms of their contribution to the genre from a general perspective. Which operas would you tell your kids to listen to as your parting shot before leaving this world, bearing in mind that their tastes may not be quite the same as yours? It's not a list of one's personal favourite - or a weighted list of all participants' favourites - unless perchance the two separate concepts of favourite and greatest coincide fortuitously.

In terms of practical methodology and making progress, the way DDD used to deal with things was to have a starting list of 100 works proposed by the Moderator. As the discussion ensued, the list - still in post # 1 - was revised section by section, usually 10 at a time moving down the list from the top 10 (Nos 1-10), then Nos 11-20, etc. The Moderator may express views on ranks just like all the other participants but only the Moderator can modify the list. That list was always contained in post No 1 in the thread. and got modified maybe half a dozen times as the discussion progressed.

The suggestion made earlier that this job of handling the selections might be passed to a non-Staffer as the exercise moves forward to later stages is not one that I would imagine would work well. The Moderator needs to keep a firm grip on the situation, calling time on discussions, and making judgements on the selections before moving on to consideration of the next group. If control is delegated to an ordinary member, all the discipline and consistency goes down the drain.

In view of the above, I would suggest taking the DDD list of 100 greatest operas as the starting point, and let discussion ensue on the merits of the placings for the first group of 10, followed by subsequent groups of 10. Any operas which aren't already included in that list of 100 could be added in the initial stage to broaden the field. It might be extended to say, 150, but eventually the surplus 50 would get whittled away, if it is agreed to finalise on the arbitrary number of 100.

I don't mind admitting that part of my purpose in raising this suggestion of a T-C list of 100 greatest operas was to show you how difficult it is to organise an exercise like this. The various other DDD classical music lists have come under critical scrutiny on other Forums at various times, and I've often thought "you should try to do better". As will be seen, it's a lot easier said than done to pull off a decent list that has involved active participation by members, rather than merely a list which was simply pulled out of a hat.

My interest in opera was quite large at an earlier time but these days I find that it has rather fallen behind other genres. For my part, I'm entirely happy with the nominations and rankings for the first 10 positions as shown in the DDD list of 100 greatest operas, even though (as I said before) they're not my personal favourites. My only involvement with DDD was as a former ordinary member, but now long since lapsed in terms of active participation.


----------



## Almaviva

I don't think we should just use the 100 from DDD as our base.
There are other great lists.
I know of a digest of 9 reputable sources - they listed the 93 operas that had been mentioned in all 9 lists. It's a very interesting list of 93 great operas - not too many duds there. They did not provide a ranking. Maybe that list is a better place to start than the DDD list.
Independently of the lists that can be useful to remind people of these operas, I like the 10 by 10 method, and that's what my initial suggestion was. The membership here kind of migrated to 1 by 1 which I don't think is the ideal method, but I went along with it. What interests me the most in this exercise, is the discussions I expect to happen on whether to include this or that, or whether to remove this or that. We're still far from reaching that point, but eventually, we will.
I believe we'll be all content with Gaston's (jhar26) leadership and will respect his decisions. But we non-staffers also have strong opinions so you can't expect that we won't manifest ourselves emphatically. It doesn't mean taking over, it means discussing the issue.


----------



## sospiro

I seem to have lost the plot a bit  ... Are we still be invited to nominate?

Anyway I would like to nominate _Simon Boccanegra_.


----------



## Elgarian

sospiro said:


> I seem to have lost the plot a bit  ... Are we still be invited to nominate?


I think we seem to have begun (even though the debate rumbles on).

We have:
_Les Troyens
Le Nozze de Figaro
Tristan Und Isolde
Simon Boccanegra_

And I nominate _La Boheme_.

Incidentally, one way to solve the unsolvable problem of whether these are the greatest, or the nicest, or our favourites, etc, is to call the list 'Talk Classical's 100 *most recommended* operas'.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Elgarian said:


> I think we seem to have begun (even though the debate rumbles on).
> 
> We have:
> _Les Troyens
> Le Nozze de Figaro
> Tristan Und Isolde
> Simon Boccanegra_
> 
> And I nominate _La Boheme_.
> 
> Incidentally, one way to solve the unsolvable problem of whether these are the greatest, or the nicest, or our favourites, etc, is to call the list 'Talk Classical's 100 *most recommended* operas'.


Good idea.

I nominate Giulio Cesare.


----------



## Elgarian

Brilliant choice.

Isn't it funny how we're all averting our gaze and tiptoe-ing around _Der Ring_. ....


----------



## emiellucifuge

Elgarian said:


> Brilliant choice.
> 
> Isn't it funny how we're all averting our gaze and tiptoe-ing around _Der Ring_. ....


Im just going to go ahead and nominate it. It needs to be there!

Almaviva, Les Troyens is a brilliant opera but i dont think it is anywhere near representative or important enough to be 2nd.


----------



## mamascarlatti

So now we have: 

Les Troyens
Le Nozze de Figaro
Tristan Und Isolde
Simon Boccanegra
La Boheme
Giulio Cesare
The Ring

Let's just add new nominations to the bottom of the list.


----------



## jhar26

Toccata said:


> A few comments on progress so far in this project, and possible problem areas as I see it.
> 
> The idea is to finish up with a list of the 100 top operas ranked by "greatness". Thus, once completed, the No 1 opera will be considered greater than, for example, the No 14 opera, which will be considered greater than the No 67 opera etc. The "slope" of the curve is not an issue (i.e. how rapidly the quality declines at particular points on the 1-100), and nor is the exact ranking of places within any group of, say, 5.
> 
> From the deliberations I have seen thus far in this thread, there is a big danger of finishing up merely with a list of one's personal favourites. That would be a weakness because the results will obviously vary according to the membership that actually voted. Somehow or other it's going to be necessary to put aside one's purely personal opinions and to adopt an "objective" hat, by which I mean trying to see things in the round from as neutral a position as possible. Factors that might affect greatness are general popularity currently, popularity down the ages, the degree of influence that works had on later works, the esteem of the composer. If anyone cares to glance at the relevant DDD discussions, they're all there to see.
> 
> To illustrate, I prefer Baroque period opera to all later manifestations. Specifically, I prefer Purcell's Dido & Aeneas and Handel's Julius Caesar to most other operas, but I wouldn't nominate either for a top 10 position since I know, or rather sense, that that neither is generally considered to be as great as, say, DG, Le Nozze, Tristan or whatever. I have no problem making that conceptual split. It is a distinction sometimes made in other musical contexts, like one's favourite versus greatest symphonies.
> 
> "Greatness" will have to be a personal concept: what each of the participants feels happy with as an all-encapsulating indicator of the merit of individual operas in terms of their contribution to the genre from a general perspective. Which operas would you tell your kids to listen to as your parting shot before leaving this world, bearing in mind that their tastes may not be quite the same as yours? It's not a list of one's personal favourite - or a weighted list of all participants' favourites - unless perchance the two separate concepts of favourite and greatest coincide fortuitously.
> 
> In terms of practical methodology and making progress, the way DDD used to deal with things was to have a starting list of 100 works proposed by the Moderator. As the discussion ensued, the list - still in post # 1 - was revised section by section, usually 10 at a time moving down the list from the top 10 (Nos 1-10), then Nos 11-20, etc. The Moderator may express views on ranks just like all the other participants but only the Moderator can modify the list. That list was always contained in post No 1 in the thread. and got modified maybe half a dozen times as the discussion progressed.
> 
> The suggestion made earlier that this job of handling the selections might be passed to a non-Staffer as the exercise moves forward to later stages is not one that I would imagine would work well. The Moderator needs to keep a firm grip on the situation, calling time on discussions, and making judgements on the selections before moving on to consideration of the next group. If control is delegated to an ordinary member, all the discipline and consistency goes down the drain.
> 
> In view of the above, I would suggest taking the DDD list of 100 greatest operas as the starting point, and let discussion ensue on the merits of the placings for the first group of 10, followed by subsequent groups of 10. Any operas which aren't already included in that list of 100 could be added in the initial stage to broaden the field. It might be extended to say, 150, but eventually the surplus 50 would get whittled away, if it is agreed to finalise on the arbitrary number of 100.
> 
> I don't mind admitting that part of my purpose in raising this suggestion of a T-C list of 100 greatest operas was to show you how difficult it is to organise an exercise like this. The various other DDD classical music lists have come under critical scrutiny on other Forums at various times, and I've often thought "you should try to do better". As will be seen, it's a lot easier said than done to pull off a decent list that has involved active participation by members, rather than merely a list which was simply pulled out of a hat.
> 
> My interest in opera was quite large at an earlier time but these days I find that it has rather fallen behind other genres. For my part, I'm entirely happy with the nominations and rankings for the first 10 positions as shown in the DDD list of 100 greatest operas, even though (as I said before) they're not my personal favourites. My only involvement with DDD was as a former ordinary member, but now long since lapsed in terms of active participation.


As Oliver Hardy would have said, "Here's another fine mess you've gotten me into." :lol: But I guess I've got myself into it and the only person to blame is me. 

Seriously though, thanks for your explanation. You make a lot of sense, but since we've already started I think it's best to stick with the current formula and see where it takes us. The end result probably won't be that different. I just hope that each participating member will be happy with it.

Like Almaviva I just appeal to people's common sense when they nominate operas. Also - keep in mind that after the nominations are in that there will be room for debate. People will have the opportunity to speak their minds and try to persuade someone to change a nomination they have problems with. BUT the person that made the nomination will have the final say in deciding if his/her nomination stays or goes - and if it goes, what opera will replace it.


----------



## jhar26

mamascarlatti said:


> So now we have:
> 
> Les Troyens
> Le Nozze de Figaro
> Tristan Und Isolde
> Simon Boccanegra
> La Boheme
> Giulio Cesare
> The Ring
> 
> Let's just add new nominations to the bottom of the list.


...good idea. Let's also add the usernames so that we know who nominated what. It will also make it easier to keep track of which members still have to put in their nomintion before we can start the next phase.

*Almaviva* - Les Troyens
*jhar26* - Le Nozze de Figaro
*World Violist * - Tristan Und Isolde
*sospiro* - Simon Boccanegra
*Elgarian * - La Boheme
*mamascarlatti * - Giulio Cesare
*emiellucifuge * - The Ring


----------



## Toccata

jhar26 said:


> As Oliver Hardy would have said, "Here's another fine mess you've gotten me into." :lol: But I guess I've got myself into it and the only person to blame is me.
> 
> Seriously though, thanks for your explanation. You make a lot of sense, but since we've already started I think it's best to stick with the current formula and see where it takes us. The end result probably won't be that different. I just hope that each participating member will be happy with it.
> 
> Like Almaviva I just appeal to people's common sense when they nominate operas. Also - keep in mind that after the nominations are in that there will be room for debate. People will have the opportunity to speak their minds and try to persuade someone to change a nomination they have problems with. BUT the person that made the nomination will have the final say in deciding if his/her nomination stays or goes - and if it goes, what opera will replace it.


Thank you for taking the bother to read my post which attempted to be helpful. I don't think anyone else could be bothered to wade through it. The suggested procedure which I set is based on the tried and tested one commonly used on the DDD forum where they have done many dozens of these things across most music genres (jazz, rock, pop, classical).


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

jhar26 said:


> ...I've proposed to have each member who wants to participate nominate just ONE opera after which everyone can have his/her say/vote about the order in which those nominated operas should be ranked. No matter how flawed the end result will be - and it inevitably WILL BE flawed, to have a ranking order is the point - or at least the goal of this thread.


I might be addressing a _fait accompli_ here- but it seems that this means that once an opera is nominated for its panel of ten, then the only issue left is determining its order in the panel.

I had thought that we could have had a finite number of selections vetted via some manner of _voir dire_ (with the challenge and its suggested replacement scrutinized)... but I'm willing to concede that this might be judged too logistically difficult.

Another advantage of a 'voir dire' like procedure is that it would impel those making recommendations to consider how receptive others would be to one's suggestions. Right now, there's no such constraint.

I'll give you an example- Thomas' _Mignon_ (*not* my nomination) is one of my all-time favorite operas. I will unapologetically say that I'd rather listen to it than at least three other previously-nominated operas. If I nominate it, I force its consideration in our top 10, given our current process. 
[But, as I said, I'm NOT nominating it (now!)]:devil:

I _will_, however, nominate Bizet's *Carmen*. 
I think that a list of top-10 operas that excludes 'Carmen' embarrasses itself.


----------



## emiellucifuge

I think the idea is (or at least should be) that we accept an indefinite number of nominations for the top 10, after which those who are willing can assist in discussing and deciding which can stay and which are removed, and then finally in which order the survivors are to be placed.

We've had 8 nominations so far. Therefore there are just 826 active members still to nominate!


----------



## jhar26

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I might be addressing a _fait accompli_ here- but it seems that this means that once an opera is nominated for its panel of ten, then the only issue left is determining its order in the panel.
> 
> I had thought that we could have had a finite number of selections vetted via some manner of _voir dire_ (with the challenge and its suggested replacement scrutinized)... but I'm willing to concede that this might be judged too logistically difficult.
> 
> Another advantage of a 'voir dire' like procedure is that it would impel those making recommendations to consider how receptive others would be to one's suggestions. Right now, there's no such constraint.
> 
> I'll give you an example- Thomas' _Mignon_ (*not* my nomination) is one of my all-time favorite operas. I will unapologetically say that I'd rather listen to it than at least three other previously-nominated operas. If I nominate it, I force its consideration in our top 10, given our current process.
> [But, as I said, I'm NOT nominating it (now!)]:devil:


But the formula we're using now is not that different from the one we started out with. The only difference is that instead of using Almaviva's top 10 as our starting point we will now have a top 10 (or whatever) to which every member has contributed. But after that there's still room for debate and suggestions, just like there would have been with Almaviva's list.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

emiellucifuge said:


> I think the idea is (or at least should be) that we accept an indefinite number of nominations for the top 10, after which those who are willing can assist in discussing and deciding which can stay and which are removed, and then finally in which order the survivors are to be placed.
> 
> We've had 8 nominations so far. Therefore there are just 826 active members still to nominate!


Yikes!

I don't think I have that many years left in my life!!

Anyway, with a couple more hours to think about this, I offer the following counter-proposal:

1) Limit the waves of nominations to 10 per panel, as was my initial understanding.
2) Limit of one nomination per panel per user, also in line with my understanding.
3) _Require each nomination be be *seconded*_ (new idea), perhaps limiting each individual to one seconding. 
[This idea can perhaps be more fully vetted.]
This should suppress some of the mischief e.g.: my hypothetical idea of nominating _Mignon_ in the top-ten, 
as my motion would (likely) die for lack of a second!
4) Once a panel of ten is in place, allow 4 total challenges- no more than one challenge per person-- each challenge consisting of the challenged opera *and* its suggested replacement (so make it GOOD!). The two are then subject to a first-come, first-served vote (each user entitled to one vote), with the first side to get five votes carrying the day. If neither side carries 5 votes within 24 hours, then majority wins. If tied, then the nominee _stays_. Any challenge must be pursued to its resolution before the next challenge begins. 
5) After the resolution of the fourth challenge, repeat the process for the next panel. If twelve hours passes between the resolution of a challenge without a further challenge, then the challenge-process is also declared over, and work will begin on the next panel.

Keep in mind- even though I'm a staffer, these are just suggestions. I welcome ideas on refinements 
(or, of course- other counter-proposals).


----------



## Almaviva

emiellucifuge said:


> Im just going to go ahead and nominate it. It needs to be there!
> 
> Almaviva, Les Troyens is a brilliant opera but i dont think it is anywhere near representative or important enough to be 2nd.


But I'm prepared to fight for it until death do us part!:devil:

I know that some will then say that I'm not wearing my objective hat. I am. I'm deeply convinced that _Les Troyens_ belongs in the top 10, even as high as second. For me, it's the French Ring. It's the only other opera that can compare with the Ring. It's not just a question of it being one of my favorites (which it obviously is) but there is a lot of objective thought that goes into this evaluation of mine, as well. By the way, I'm not alone in this evaluation. Read the chapter on _Les Troyens _in Paul Robinson's book _Opera and Ideas: from Mozart to Strauss_ and you'll see some scholars quoted by him who are of the same opinion.

I don't remember the people quoted there, and I'm not home to check (I have the book at home) but I remember one of them saying something to this effect: "_Les Troyens _is not more popular because it is rarely staged, thanks to the enormous demands it would place on opera houses. It is far beyond the means of most opera houses in the world except for a handful of them, and even those won't stage it because they are afraid they won't recover the costs since it is poorly known by the public at large, which in its turn is again a function of it rarely getting staged, resulting in a vicious circle. But it is so grand, that I believe governmental institutions, especially the French, should eat up the costs and stage it repeatedly until the public realizes its grandeur."

OK, I don't have the book on me, but Wikipedia does quote some critics, sorry for using the much maligned Wikipedia, but regardless of where I got the quotes from, the quotes are real. Read on:

"British critic W.J. Turner declared that _Les Troyens_ was "the greatest opera ever written" in his 1934 book on Berlioz, much preferring it to the vastly more popular works of Richard Wagner. American critic B. H. Haggin heard in the work Berlioz' "arrestingly individual musical mind operating in, and commanding attention with, the use of the [Berlioz] idiom with assured mastery and complete adequacy to the text's every demand". David Cairns described the work as "an opera of visionary beauty and splendor, compelling in its epic sweep, fascinating in the variety of its musical invention... it recaptures the tragic spirit and climate of the ancient world." Hugh Macdonald said of it: In the history of French music, _Les Troyens_ stands out as a grand opera that avoided the shallow glamour of Meyerbeer and Halevy, but therefore paid the price of long neglect. In our own time the opera has finally come to be seen as one of the greatest operas of the 19th century."

Poor Berlioz suffered ostracism during his lifetime because of the popular taste for people like Meyerbeer - oh come on, there is no comparison. Berlioz is just 50 times better than Meyerbeer. There was a boycott of Berlioz's works in Opera Garnier, and he wasn't even able to see his _Les Troyens _staged complete in his lifetime. This is a shame. Berlioz is a brilliant composer. There isn't a note in his production that isn't sublime. No duds. Not one. He wrote 4 operas, if we count _La Damnation de Faust_ as an opera (I do). They are sublime, all four. His orchestral works are just as good.

About being representative - of course it is representative. It was Berlioz's explicit response to Wagner. He said at the time - "I'll show with this work that we, the French, can write opera that reaches the same heights as Wagner's but with French-style melodies." _Les Troyens _is French opera at its best, and not just silly Grand Opera, Meyerbeer style.

About being important - how can we say that the masterpiece of one of the most important composers of the 19th century is not important? In my opinion, it is very important. It's just like saying that _Fidelio _is not important. How can we neglect the opera of arguably the greatest composer of all time? When Beethoven finally wrote an opera, we're almost by definition obliged to grant importance to it, and I'd say that the same applies to Berlioz.

Now, for objective qualities:

Orchestration - Spectacular. Precise all the way, in its treatment of the subject matter. You get incredible tone painting, with majestic marches when they're called for, frightening vivacious turmoil when serpents attack or there is a storm, incredibly suggestive music for the love scenes, upsetting impending doom when Cassandra is anticipating the horrors to come, etc, etc. This orchestration is so good that you can close your eyes and see the scenes deploying in your imagination just by listening to the sounds - remember, we're talking about a master of tone painting like he lavishly demonstrates in his Symphonie Fantastique.

Libretto - written by Berlioz himself, just like Wagner did. Have you read it for its own sake, even without the music? I did. It is fabulous! It is beautiful, with a great dramatic arc, it is pretty good theater that stands in its own, and masterfully avoids any longueurs. Everything has its place and evolves consistently and surely. You get the viewpoint of gods, of kings, of common men, it all circles around with a profound sense of dramatic adequacy. It's one of the best libretti in all of opera, not to forget the outstanding literary quality of its source material - nothing less than a work by Virgil.

Pace - Oh boy, it's just perfect. Events happen in rapid sequence, and they are very notable events. Again, Berlioz's sense of theater is uncanny - for instance, you don't really get to see the Trojan horse, you hear about it, it becomes this entity off-stage that is fascinating and threatening at the same time. People come and talk about dragons and serpents... Gods come down to remember people of their destiny. Oracles make predictions. Common men lament their fate or talk about lost heros. Tragic figures show up but are solemnly silent. All of this is shown with an effect of awe and dread that keeps the spectator on the edge of the seat. There is no down moment. When something is less intense, it's a welcome break, and soon we are thrown into the inexorable push of History again. Wow!

Vocal music for singers - Oh boy again. Some of the most sublime arias in all of opera are there to be discovered, helped by the fact that they aren't overexposed like those of the more popular operas, making for a fresh sense of surprise.

Vocal music for chorus - This is one of the best uses of choral music in all of opera, if not the best. And there is a lot of it (which adds to the expenses for opera companies, unfortunately). You get a Greek sense of the chorus as the collective consciousness, but in addition to this, you get the chorus to participate of the action, and in the hands of a skillful stage director, the massive movement of the choral forces in and out of the stage ends up being another element added to the general effect of the huge forces at work in this historical arc. I love choral music and I get an earful from _Les Troyens._

Even the ballets, which is not something I usually care for in an opera, are pretty good in this one.

Dramatic quality - Almost unmatched in the field of opera. We're talking about the origines of Western civilization, no less. We get a sense of how it all started... the foundation of Rome... the end of Carthage... things to come in Annibal... The last scene with Clio saying - Troy is over, now Rome! Goosebumps... And all of this matched to a beautiful love story, to two incredibly strong women (Cassandra and Didon), to a true hero (Aeneas), to the eternal fight between love and duty... Character development is strong, with the public witnessing the slow destruction of Didon, this skilfull poliltician who can't handle love and rejection. This is the kind of work that combines the historical with the personal and touches a truth about the human condition that warrants its survival accross the centuries. This is the stuff that 200 years later will still be relevant.

By the way, a curiosity - it's relevant even in the distant future, since it is featured in Star Trek, with Commander Picard listening to it in one of the scenes - the aria _Vallon Sonore_. How is that for importance?:lol:

_Les Troyens _in my not-so-humble opinion gets a score of 100 out of 100 when we consider all the elements that need to combine for an opera to be considered great. There isn't a single part of _Les Troyens _that isn't masterfully executed.

So, yeah, baby, number 2. I stand behind it, and will fight for it. It is a sublime masterpiece, and the more people get to know it, the more they will hopefully agree with me.

I may be defeated on this, but I'd say that if it happens, chances are that it's because not many among us have seen it staged, since it is so rarely staged. There are good DVDs of it, though, which are the next best thing (I recommend the recent Chatelet production with Sir Gardiner conducting, also available in blu-ray - Levine's with Placido Domingo is good too), and for those who prefer CDs (although I strongly suggest that _Les Troyens _needs to be *seen* in order to be fully appreciated), there are two Davis recordings.

So, I'll be here in this chorus of one for now, hoping that someone else will join me, but while it doesn't happen, I'll be rooting on my own: "Ole, ole, ole, ole.... Les Troyens... Les Troyens..."


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## emiellucifuge

I have seen it staged and i will try and investigate it further, but largely my original opinion remains.


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## Almaviva

emiellucifuge said:


> I have seen it staged and i will try and investigate it further, but largely my original opinion remains.


Oh well, nothing can please everybody. I respect your opinion, although I made it clear that mine is radically different.


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## jhar26

Chi_townPhilly said:


> 1) Limit the waves of nominations to 10 per panel, as was my initial understanding.


This will only work if we actually get 10 nominations. But ok, let's give it a try. There are now eight nominated operas, so two more to go. 



> 2) Limit of one nomination per panel per user, also in line with my understanding.


Yep.



> 3) _Require each nomination be be *seconded*_ (new idea), perhaps limiting each individual to one seconding.
> [This idea can perhaps be more fully vetted.]
> This should suppress some of the mischief e.g.: my hypothetical idea of nominating _Mignon_ in the top-ten,
> as my motion would (likely) die for lack of a second!
> 4) Once a panel of ten is in place, allow 4 total challenges- no more than one challenge per person-- each challenge consisting of the challenged opera *and* its suggested replacement (so make it GOOD!). The two are then subject to a first-come, first-served vote (each user entitled to one vote), with the first side to get five votes carrying the day. If neither side carries 5 votes within 24 hours, then majority wins. If tied, then the nominee _stays_. Any challenge must be pursued to its resolution before the next challenge begins.


Interesting ideas. Maybe once we've got our nominated ten everyone could vote for, say, three operas on the list that he/she feels should stay. Every opera that gets three or more votes is 'qualified' and the rest would be subjected to the challenge system you're suggesting. Just an idea.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Elgarian said:


> Incidentally, one way to solve the unsolvable problem of whether these are the greatest, or the nicest, or our favourites, etc, is to call the list 'Talk Classical's 100 *most recommended* operas'.
> 
> 
> mamascarlatti said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good idea.
Click to expand...

I agree with this idea enough to have changed the thread-title. :tiphat:


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## jhar26

Nominations so far.....

*Almaviva* - Les Troyens
*jhar26* - Le Nozze de Figaro
*World Violist * - Tristan Und Isolde
*sospiro* - Simon Boccanegra
*Elgarian * - La Boheme
*mamascarlatti * - Giulio Cesare
*emiellucifuge * - The Ring
*Chi_townPhilly* - Carmen

...two more to go before we'll start the next phase.


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## Almaviva

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Yikes!
> 
> I don't think I have that many years left in my life!!
> 
> Anyway, with a couple more hours to think about this, I offer the following counter-proposal:
> 
> 1) Limit the waves of nominations to 10 per panel, as was my initial understanding.
> 2) Limit of one nomination per panel per user, also in line with my understanding.
> 3) _Require each nomination be be *seconded*_ (new idea), perhaps limiting each individual to one seconding.
> [This idea can perhaps be more fully vetted.]
> This should suppress some of the mischief e.g.: my hypothetical idea of nominating _Mignon_ in the top-ten,
> as my motion would (likely) die for lack of a second!
> 4) Once a panel of ten is in place, allow 4 total challenges- no more than one challenge per person-- each challenge consisting of the challenged opera *and* its suggested replacement (so make it GOOD!). The two are then subject to a first-come, first-served vote (each user entitled to one vote), with the first side to get five votes carrying the day. If neither side carries 5 votes within 24 hours, then majority wins. If tied, then the nominee _stays_. Any challenge must be pursued to its resolution before the next challenge begins.
> 5) After the resolution of the fourth challenge, repeat the process for the next panel. If twelve hours passes between the resolution of a challenge without a further challenge, then the challenge-process is also declared over, and work will begin on the next panel.
> 
> Keep in mind- even though I'm a staffer, these are just suggestions. I welcome ideas on refinements
> (or, of course- other counter-proposals).


This sounds good but I'm dizzy.
I think if we go for something this complex, we'll need the assistance of lawyers.
Kidding apart, I believe that the biggest problem here is the fact that if we allow only 10 nominations for each phase, the people who are here more often (and this includes me at least while I'm here in New York City having a break from work) will have too much weight in the process... will jump ahead and propose nominations, leaving other less frequent members out of the process of getting to the 10 nominees. Maybe if we'd at least allow 15 or 20 nominations until the next phase, it would make it more widely accessible to members who don't log in as often.

Imagine someone who logs in infrequently, bumping into this thread. The person is likely to say, "wait a moment, why isn't ...... included in the top 10? It deserves to be, in my opinion." Then we'd say, "sorry, this phase is over, you can't nominate any longer, wait for the next chunk." This is kind of a turn off, and the person is then likely to just lose interest for the thread altogether. How to solve this problem, I don't know, because obviously we can't keep the nomination process open forever, and we can't afford 800 plus nominations, like you said, unless we quit everything else that we do and become full time Talk Classical Opera participants. But still, limiting it to ten may be too narrow.

Another problem with this: my Les Troyens is likely to be rejected, so I'll propose it again for the 11-20 chunk, and if it is rejected again I'll propose it for the 21-30 chunk... etc. So my participation may end up being one of defending Les Troyens several times, and this is not really fun.

And then, one more problem - if we allow only 4 challenges, some extreme situations might happen - let's say some very opinionated users (this might apply to myself, hehehe) jump ahead and propose some zebras that would be very unlikely to gather wide support from the membership at large, and then they also jump ahead and challenge four other choices by other users... This would mean that those four zebras would then be safe and would be written in stone in the final list just by the sheer fact that they were nominated first and those users used up the available challenges... They wouldn't even be subject to debate. This doesn't sound very fair. At the very least, if we stick to ten operas, then we need to allow ten challenges, so that no single user can impose undebatable choices just by jumping ahead. And mind you, I'm saying this to my own prejudice, since I *am* one of the most frequent contributors who would be favored under your idea.

I'd like some format that will encourage debate, attacks and defenses (in the good sense) because *this* is what will bring about the most "fun value" and the most informative posts (I humbly consider that my passionate defense of Les Troyens above is an example of the kind of post that such debates might generate). I like the idea of our membership getting to the most recommended 100 operas, but I like it more for the fun of discussing the operas than for the list itself, so, I'd like a format that would encourage newcomers to the thread to still feel like participating, rather than one that would send them packing. Also, I'd like a format that wouldn't allow any choice to go unchallenged, therefore, safe from debate. I don't know what this format should be, though, I'm just talking about what I see as unintended consequences of your idea.

After my verbose paragraphs above, here is how to summarize everything that I've said in one phrase: I wouldn't like this thread to acquire the sub-title "but recommended just by the TC Opera most frequent participants."


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## DarkAngel

jhar26 said:


> Nominations so far.....
> 
> *Almaviva* - Les Troyens
> *jhar26* - Le Nozze de Figaro
> *World Violist *- Tristan Und Isolde
> *sospiro* - Simon Boccanegra
> *Elgarian *- La Boheme
> *mamascarlatti *- Giulio Cesare
> *emiellucifuge *- The Ring
> *Chi_townPhilly* - Carmen
> 
> ...two more to go before we'll start the next phase.


*Dark Angel - La Traviata *

Verdi music and singing flows like expensive champagne, join the party my friends


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## Almaviva

DarkAngel said:


> *Dark Angel - La Traviata *
> 
> Verdi music and singing flows like expensive champagne, join the party my friends


I loved it that you have nominated it, DA! If the final format ends up requiring nominations to be seconded, count on me. Er... would you second Les Troyens?

[Almaviva engages in frantic backroom closed door negotiations with DA to secure mutual support]


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## emiellucifuge

Almaviva, i understand your hesitation to continually defend your choice through each phase, but think of it in a positive way. If you resubmit Les Troyens each time based on the reasons youve already stated it is sure to be accepted by general concensus at a time and place that is (democratically) appropriate.

Ive already made my nomination but i would also like to remind everyone of the existence of Bernd Alois Zimmermann's Die Soldaten. *hint hint*


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## Almaviva

emiellucifuge said:


> Almaviva, i understand your hesitation to continually defend your choice through each phase, but think of it in a positive way. If you resubmit Les Troyens each time based on the reasons youve already stated it is sure to be accepted by general concensus at a time and place that is (democratically) appropriate.


Yep, I thought of this, but the problem is that I think the place that is (undemocratically:devil appropriate for Les Troyens is number 2.

But again, kidding apart, it may become repetitive and less fun... I'd like at some point to put the Les Troyens issue to rest and engage in other discussions... the format as proposed seems to me a little rigid, and less likely to result in ample debate. But I'm willing to accept whatever is decided by the moderators (but not without kicking and screaming first, though.)


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## Almaviva

Just a reminder - today in the United States the National Opera Week starts... with several events all over the country, so, it's very appropriate that our forum takes the time to produce this list during this celebratory week.


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## Almaviva

For what's worth, here is the list I had mentioned before, one that took into consideration 9 reputable sources (encyclopedias, major books, major critics) and listed the 93 operas (the Ring counts as four) that made it into all nine lists. This is the only criterion: operas that have achieved consensus enough to be listed by all these 9 major sources as among the greatest (don't ask, I don't remember what major sources were those - I remember that Matthew Boyden's book was one of them, Oxford was there too, etc). There is no ranking, it's alphabetical. I think this may be helpful for thread participants to remember these 90 operas (counting the Ring as one) but of course such list eliminates other worthy operas that just didn't make it into all 9 lists but may very well make it into ours, so, of course there are glaring ommissions - it's enough for an opera to be quoted 8 times among these sources but not by the 9th one for it to be disqualified from this list. Anyway, like I said, for what's worth I'm reproducing it here. The list is clickable and takes you to the Wikipedia page for each of the operas which is another helpful feature.

_Adriana Lecouvreur_
_Aida_
_Arabella_
_Ariadne auf Naxos_,
_Un ballo in maschera_, 
_The Barber of Seville_
_The Bartered Bride_,
_Billy Budd_,
_Bluebeard's Castle_,
_La bohème_, 
_Boris Godunov_,
_Capriccio_,
_Carmen_, 
_Cavalleria rusticana_,
_La Cenerentola_,
_La clemenza di Tito_,
_Les contes d'Hoffmann_, 
_Così fan tutte_,
_The Cunning Little Vixen_, 
_Dido and Æneas_, 
_Don Carlos_, 
_Don Giovanni_,
_Don Pasquale_,
_Elektra_,
_L'elisir d'amore_,
_L'enfant et les sortilèges_, 
_Die Entführung aus dem Serail_,
_Eugene Onegin_, 
_Falstaff_,
_Faust_,
_Fidelio_,
_The Flying Dutchman_, 
_La forza del destino_,
_Der Freischütz_, 
_Giulio Cesare_,
_The Golden Cockerel_,
_Götterdämmerung_, 
_L'heure espagnole_, 
_Les Huguenots_, 
_Idomeneo_, 
_L'incoronazione di Poppea_,
_L'italiana in Algeri_,
_Jenůfa_, 
_Káťa Kabanová_, 
_Lakmé_, 
_The Marriage of Figaro_, 
_Il matrimonio segreto_,
_Lohengrin_,
_Louise_,
_Lucia di Lammermoor_,
_Macbeth_, 
_Madama Butterfly_,
_The Magic Flute_,
_Manon_, 
_Médée_, 
_Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_,
_Mignon_,
_Moses und Aron_, 
_Nabucco_,
_Norma_,
_L'Orfeo_,
_Orfeo ed Euridice_, 
_Otello_,
_Pagliacci_, 
_Parsifal_,
_Les pêcheurs de perles_, 
_Pelléas et Mélisande_,
_Peter Grimes_,
_Prince Igor_,
_I puritani_, 
_The Queen of Spades_, 
_The Rake's Progress_, 
_Das Rheingold_,
_Rigoletto_,
_Roméo et Juliette_,
_Der Rosenkavalier_, 
_Salome_, 
_Samson and Delilah_,
_Semiramide_,
_Siegfried_, 
_Simon Boccanegra_,
_La sonnambula_, 
_Tannhäuser_,
_Tosca_, 
_La traviata_,
_Tristan und Isolde_,
_Il trovatore_,
_Les Troyens_, 
_Turandot_,
_The Turn of the Screw_, 
_Die Walküre_, 
_Werther_
_Wozzeck_.


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## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> Maybe once we've got our nominated ten everyone could vote for, say, three operas on the list that he/she feels should stay. Every opera that gets three or more votes is 'qualified' and the rest would be subjected to the challenge system you're suggesting.


Something along these lines sounds workable. If we hang an albatross of rules around our necks, we'll get lost in its complexity.

Why don't we use this first top ten as a pilot scheme, trying out the simplest system we can think of and discovering the problems as we go along? (I'm not entirely sure that we need to accept a rigid limit of 10 in the first instance. If we ended up with 12 or 14 in the preliminary list it wouldn't really matter. The important thing is to_ get_ that preliminary list (we're well on the way towards it), which we're then going to vote on to get the actual top ten.)


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## Rangstrom

I'll nominate Peter Grimes--it has a great book, interesting and challenging characterizations, lovely orchestration (especially in the interludes), fine solo and ensemble numbers and is well represented on recordings and videos. I've yet to hear a bad performance.

BTW, in my opinion the ring is 4 operas. As much as I enjoy Wagner, I'd pity anyone trying to listen to the whole thing in one night.


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## sospiro

Should I have given my reasons when I posted my choice or do I do it later?

(sorry - there's always one who doesn't listen to teacher)


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## Almaviva

sospiro said:


> Should I have given my reasons when I posted my choice or do I do it later?
> 
> (sorry - there's always one who doesn't listen to teacher)


I don't think so, nominations are one thing, defending/voting for the ones that have been nominated is another thing, and that's when the reasons should come up, in my opinion.


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## Almaviva

Rangstrom said:


> I'll nominate Peter Grimes--it has a great book, interesting and challenging characterizations, lovely orchestration (especially in the interludes), fine solo and ensemble numbers and is well represented on recordings and videos. I've yet to hear a bad performance.
> 
> BTW, in my opinion the ring is 4 operas. As much as I enjoy Wagner, I'd pity anyone trying to listen to the whole thing in one night.


Peter Grimes is great.
The Ring - it would be really unfair to other choices if we considered each Ring part as a different opera. They could end up clogging four spots in the top ten or at least top twenty. I think for our purposes here it's best to consider the Ring as one opera.

I believe we're just one from the first batch of ten, now.


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## Elgarian

Almaviva said:


> The Ring - it would be really unfair to other choices if we considered each Ring part as a different opera. They could end up clogging four spots in the top ten or at least top twenty. I think for our purposes here it's best to consider the Ring as one opera.


Almaviva, he speaketh truth, say I.


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## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> Something along these lines sounds workable. If we hang an albatross of rules around our necks, we'll get lost in its complexity.
> 
> Why don't we use this first top ten as a pilot scheme, trying out the simplest system we can think of and discovering the problems as we go along? (I'm not entirely sure that we need to accept a rigid limit of 10 in the first instance. If we ended up with 12 or 14 in the preliminary list it wouldn't really matter. The important thing is to_ get_ that preliminary list (we're well on the way towards it), which we're then going to vote on to get the actual top ten.)


We'll stick with ten for now if for no other reason than that I don't want to change my mind every five minutes. :lol: I agree that we shouldn't make it TOO complicated, but I think that what we have in mind is not as complicated as it sounds.


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## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> I don't want to change my mind every five minutes.


But watching you trying to deal with that was the bit we were all enjoying most!


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## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> Almaviva, he speaketh truth, say I.


It could also be so that seperate from each other they would do worse than as one entity. People are impressed by the epic nature of the work as a whole.


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## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> Almaviva, he speaketh truth, say I.


Well, when don't I?


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## jhar26

We have our ten nominations....

*Almaviva* - Les Troyens
*jhar26* - Le Nozze de Figaro
*World Violist * - Tristan Und Isolde
*sospiro* - Simon Boccanegra
*Elgarian * - La Boheme
*mamascarlatti * - Giulio Cesare
*emiellucifuge * - The Ring
*Chi_townPhilly* - Carmen
*DarkAngel * - La Traviata
*Rangstrom * - Peter Grimes

...and now we wait until Chi_townPhilly has given us his opinion about my 'three votes' idea (see post no.63).


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## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> But watching you trying to deal with that was the bit we were all enjoying most!


Well, you can see how hard I try to entertain you all.


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## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> We have our ten nominations....
> 
> *Almaviva* - Les Troyens
> *jhar26* - Le Nozze de Figaro
> *World Violist *- Tristan Und Isolde
> *sospiro* - Simon Boccanegra
> *Elgarian *- La Boheme
> *mamascarlatti *- Giulio Cesare
> *emiellucifuge *- The Ring
> *Chi_townPhilly* - Carmen
> *DarkAngel *- La Traviata
> *Rangstrom *- Peter Grimes
> 
> ...and now we wait until Chi_townPhilly has given us his opinion about my 'three votes' idea (see post no.63).


Damn, we can't start fightying yet?:devil:


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## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Damn, we can't start fightying yet?:devil:


No, but while we're waiting we can watch some Mike Tyson to get in the mood.....:lol:


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## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> No, but while we're waiting we can watch some Mike Tyson to get in the mood.....:lol:


Ladies and Gentlemen... on this corner, 300 pounds of pure muscle, 7 feet 3 inches, Almaviva fighting for Les Troyens. On the other corner, 50 pounds, 4 feet 2 inches, Mamascarlatti for Giulio Cesare... place your bets, ladies and gentlemen!


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## emiellucifuge

Im betting for Les Troyens in this one. Despite all ive said before!


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## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen... on this corner, 300 pounds of pure muscle, 7 feet 3 inches, Almaviva fighting for Les Troyens. On the other corner, 50 pounds, 4 feet 2 inches, Mamascarlatti for Giulio Cesare... place your bets, ladies and gentlemen!


Don't underestimate Natalie's speed. You may have the heavier punch, but Natalie flies like a butterfly and stings like a bee.


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## Chi_townPhilly

jhar26 said:


> ...and now we wait until Chi_townPhilly has given us his opinion about my 'three votes' idea (see post no.63).


Thanks! I like the idea of three votes. However, I _also_ like the idea of making more than half of the initial list of operas "safe" after the voting. To keep it balanced, I think that the bottom three should be 'on-the-bubble.'

So what do you think of the following process- 
1a) Each user selects their very top three choices, in rank-order.
1b) _Along_ with that vote, each user selects three (also in rank-order) that would be worthy adds to the list, but weren't nominated. (I recognize the hole in this is that if you think that a set of nominations can scarcely be improved upon- but I'll get to that.)
2) The top-7 vote-getters are _safe_. The bottom three vote getters on 'on-the-bubble,' to be matched against the top three un-nominated ones from the un-nominated additions. 
3) The Staff can set up a poll, six-to-choose-three, among the bubble-operas and the un-nominated ones. Note that there's nothing to stop one from voting for all three bubble-operas, should one choose. (That's our way around the small-print objection I raised earlier.)
4) Rinse and repeat.

Oh, and I still like the idea of having a nomination seconded. Most particularly, it would make it less likely for a trolling saboteur to gum up the works by intentionally nominating a marginal opera. (I'd also be curious to see if _Troyens_ and _Boccanegra_ would be seconded at this high a place on our list!:devil


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## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen... on this corner, 300 pounds of pure muscle, 7 feet 3 inches, Almaviva fighting for Les Troyens. On the other corner, 50 pounds, 4 feet 2 inches, Mamascarlatti for Giulio Cesare... place your bets, ladies and gentlemen!


No, I'm sending in a champion. If he doesn't manage to beat you up effectively you'll still die laughing.


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## jhar26

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Thanks! I like the idea of three votes. However, I _also_ like the idea of making more than half of the initial list of operas "safe" after the voting. To keep it balanced, I think that the bottom three should be 'on-the-bubble.'
> 
> So what do you think of the following process-
> 1a) Each user selects their very top three choices, in rank-order.
> 1b) _Along_ with that vote, each user selects three (also in rank-order) that would be worthy adds to the list, but weren't nominated. (I recognize the hole in this is that if you think that a set of nominations can scarcely be improved upon- but I'll get to that.)
> 2) The top-7 vote-getters are _safe_. The bottom three vote getters on 'on-the-bubble,' to be matched against the top three un-nominated ones from the un-nominated additions.


Ok, but what do we do if we have several operas with the same number of votes or points? In theory numbers seven and eight could end up with the same total - making for a top eight instead of a top seven.



> Oh, and I still like the idea of having a nomination seconded. Most particularly, it would make it less likely for a trolling saboteur to gum up the works by intentionally nominating a marginal opera.


You mean when we start nominating the next batch, right? For this round it's not necessary since no marginal operas have been nominated.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

jhar26 said:


> Ok, but what do we do if we have several operas with the same number of votes or points? In theory numbers seven and eight could end up with the same total - making for a top eight instead of a top seven.


Great question! We have some options, most immediately apparent are: a) use voters' rank-order as a tie-breaker (and that's the ONLY thing rank-order should be used for), or b) make the bubble bottom-three and ties. (Coversely, the un-nominated operas added to the 'elimination' phase could be top three and ties.) We can do either one, but I think the former is less confusing and time-consuming.


jhar26 said:


> You mean [seconding] when we start nominating the next batch, right? For this round it's not necessary since no marginal operas have been nominated.


I'm okay with that...:tiphat:

We also would benefit from a time limit for each step of the voting process. 
My first inclination is to make it 72 hours (you guys check in at least every three days, right?)


----------



## Almaviva

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Great question! We have some options, most immediately apparent are: a) use voters' rank-order as a tie-breaker (and that's the ONLY thing rank-order should be used for), or b) make the bubble bottom-three and ties. (Coversely, the un-nominated operas added to the 'elimination' phase could be top three and ties.) We can do either one, but I think the former is less confusing and time-consuming.I'm okay with that...:tiphat:
> 
> We also would benefit from a time limit for each step of the voting process.
> My first inclination is to make it 72 hours (you guys check in at least every three days, right?)


I don't know, buddy, I like the Challenge process a lot... because it would stimulate the debate - someone would have to defend a choice, or defend the proposed replacement, and the membership would vote.

Anyway, I'll go along with whatever you guys decide... but I'm just asking for the format that stimulates the most debate, instead of just votes. If we just vote, we don't need to present reasons for our choices. We vote, the top 7 get safe, end of the story. We propose bubbles, people vote, end of the story. Where is the debate?

Have you read my objections in post # 66?

It would be interesting to allow ten nominations, then ten challenges. This would ensure ten debates.

72 hours? Maybe 48. I think most people check the board at least rapidly every other day. This would significantly expedite the process. Remember, we have 10 chunks of 10. If challenges, debates, and then votes are added, these are extra days. Giving 72 hours to each step will make it go on forever. Nothing wrong with that, but I have problems with delayed gratification.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> No, I'm sending in a champion. If he doesn't manage to beat you up effectively you'll still die laughing.


I think Barbie Doll can take this doofus...LOL


----------



## sospiro

Chi_townPhilly said:


> ... Oh, and I still like the idea of having a nomination seconded. Most particularly, it would make it less likely for a trolling saboteur to gum up the works by intentionally nominating a marginal opera. (I'd also be curious to see if _Troyens_ and _Boccanegra_ would be seconded at this high a place on our list!:devil












I'll get my coat


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## Elgarian

So ... what next? I feel as if I'm losing the bubble plot somewhat, but do we each
(a) nominate our top 3 from the ten?
and also (on the CTP scheme)
(b) introduce 3 more for consideration?

Or do we apply (b) as a separate exercise, after the top 3 selection is done?

And Gaston, while we're figuring it all out, if you could do a high-wire act while taming three lions and eating fire, that would keep us even more entertained.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> I don't know, buddy, I like the Challenge process a lot... because it would stimulate the debate - someone would have to defend a choice, or defend the proposed replacement, and the membership would vote.
> 
> Anyway, I'll go along with whatever you guys decide... but I'm just asking for the format that stimulates the most debate, instead of just votes. If we just vote, we don't need to present reasons for our choices. We vote, the top 7 get safe, end of the story. We propose bubbles, people vote, end of the story. Where is the debate?
> 
> Have you read my objections in post # 66?
> 
> It would be interesting to allow ten nominations, then ten challenges. This would ensure ten debates.
> 
> 72 hours? Maybe 48. I think most people check the board at least rapidly every other day. This would significantly expedite the process. Remember, we have 10 chunks of 10. If challenges, debates, and then votes are added, these are extra days. Giving 72 hours to each step will make it go on forever. Nothing wrong with that, but I have problems with delayed gratification.


I think we can agree that 48 hours is enough in principle. Having said that, I don't think we have to be THAT strict about it. We all know who the regulerar posters are, so if one of them can't make it because he/she is away for the weekend or has another reason that prevents him/her from posting it's no big deal to wait a bit longer. Just my opinion.

By the way - your idea of ten challenges for each round would take up much more time than just 48 (OR 72) hours, unless we debate all 20 (the 10 nominated ones plus the 10 proposed replacements) simulateously, which could turn out to be a very chaotic affair. Therefore I propose that we for this round stick with the formula we have in mind. After that we can review/discuss how it went and try to make it better if it should be necessary.


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## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> And Gaston, while we're figuring it all out, if you could do a high-wire act while taming three lions and eating fire, that would keep us even more entertained.


:lol: I've noticed an alarming increase of grey hairs on my scalp since becoming a mod, Alan. And often when I'm trying to put my foot down I notice that there is some turd underneath it. :lol:


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## jhar26

Ok guys, let's rock'n'roll......

These are our nominated operas.......

*Les Troyens* (Berlioz)
*Le Nozze di Figaro* (Mozart)
*Tristan und Isolde* (Wagner)
*Simon Boccanegra* (Verdi)
*La Boheme* (Puccini)
*Giulio Cesare* (Handel)
*Der Ring des Nibelungen* (Wagner)
*Carmen* (Bizet)
*La Traviata* (Verdi)
*Peter Grimes* (Britten)

Please rank your top three choices from the above list IN YOUR ORDER OF PREFERENCE. Since they are all so very good, it will be hard to limit yourself to three, but that's part of the fun (or torture).

Also, rank your top three choices (also in your order of preference) of operas that weren't nominated, and thus are not on the above list. Those that get the most votes will do battle with those that get the least votes among our orginal nominees.


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## Elgarian

My top three, in order:

*1. Der Ring des Nibelungen
2. La Boheme
3. Giulio Cesare*

My extra three, also in order:

1. Manon
2. Cosi Fan Tutte
3. Der Rosenkavalier


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## mamascarlatti

My top three, in order:

1. Nozze di Figaro 
2. Der Ring des Nibelungen
3. Giulio Cesare

My extra three, also in order:

1. Don Giovanni
2. Tosca
3. Don Carlos


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## jhar26

MY TOP THREE NOMINATED OPERAS

-1 Le Nozze di Figaro - My favorite work by any composer - opera or otherwise. Everything is great about it. The real life characters that are easy to sympathize with, the pace of the story, the quality of the arias and the orchestration, the humor and above all the magical ensembles that still have me on the edge of my seat every time I listen to them, even though I've heard them countless times before.

-2 Giulio Cesare - Maybe some will be surprised by this choice, but it's really a supreme masterpiece. Only Handel could bring so much variation, so much inspiration and keep up the interest in an opera that lasts for four hours and is totally dominated by da capo arias. Besides, top 100 opera lists usually consist of mostly romantic operas plus a bit of Mozart and a few early modern ones. There's no reason to not also acknowledge the first 150 years of operatic history by including a baroque opera in the upper regions of our own top 100, and there's no better choice than this one.

-3 La Boheme - I agree with whatever Alan has or will say about it. :lol: The last 15 minutes or so of act one have given me more goosebumps than anything else in all of Italian opera, and that's saying a lot.

MY TOP THREE REPLACEMENT CHOICES

-1 Der Rosenkavalier - Actually my number two opera of all time. The Marschallin's monologue at the end of act one, the presentation of the rose, the act three trio....Do I need to say more? Strauss is God (even though he was an atheist)

-2 Don Giovanni - Another one of my all time top five choices.

-3 Cosi Fan Tutte - Yes, I'm a Mozart fanatic. :lol:


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## Chi_townPhilly

sospiro said:


> I'll get my coat


Oh, G_d, please don't- it's about to start getting fun.

We've agreed that our opening set of nominations will not require seconding.


Elgarian said:


> And Gaston, while you're figuring it all out, if you could do a hire-wire act while taming three lions and eating fire, that would keep us even more entertained.


I had confidence in the mental acuity of the Talk Classical opera fans, who (judging by the first four votes) seem to have picked up the spirit of things quickly enough.


jhar26 said:


> I've noticed an alarming increase in the number of grey hairs on my scalp since becoming a Mod


Cool. That means one of us still HAS hairs on his head!*:lol:

@ *Almaviva*: I liked aspects the challenge idea, as well- but formulating a process like this involves some give-and-take... 

*I'm actually not entirely bald- but I'm definitely trending that way...


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## sospiro

My top three (in order) 

Simon Boccanegra*
Carmen
La Traviata


My 'not on the list' three (in order)

Lucia di Lammermoor
Rigoletto
Tosca


(* assuming you're allowed to put your own No.1 as No.1?)


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## jhar26

sospiro said:


> My top three (in order)
> 
> Simon Boccanegra*
> Carmen
> La Traviata
> 
> (* assuming you're allowed to put your own No.1 as No.1?)


Of course you are. I did so myself.


----------



## emiellucifuge

My Top 3:

1. Des Ring Der Nibelungen
2. La Traviata
3. Tristan und Isolde

The other 3:

1. La Fanciulla del West (puccini)
2. Salome (strauss)
3. A kékszakállú herceg vára (or Duke Bluebeards Castle) (bartok)


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## Chi_townPhilly

(@ *sospiro*: thanks for your support of _Carmen_).

Additionally, to that end, my selections are-
1. *Der Ring des Nibelungen*
2. *Tristan und Isolde*
3. *Carmen*

My suggested additions are-
1. _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_
2. _Die Zauberflöte_
3. _Aïda_

Earlier, I thought I'd lobby a little for _Carmen_, but it seems like _Tristan und Isolde_ is in greater need of advocacy. This work is in any discussion of most stylistically significant _compositions_ [never mind simply operas] of all time.

A list that omits _Don Giovanni_, one could argue, would be suspect- but I think the Don will be okay without my help.
I, too, love _Rosenkavalier_, but I don't think I clearly love it in preference to my above-listed six...


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## Chi_townPhilly

*Current exit-polling shows...*

That _Simon Boccanegra_, _Les Troyens_ and _Peter Grimes_ are in the "relegation-zone."

Front-runners for opposing them are _Don Giovanni_, _Der Rosenkavalier_... 
and _Tosca_ & _Cosi fan Tutte_ are in a flat-footed tie for that third spot.


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## Almaviva

Chi_townPhilly said:


> @ *Almaviva*: I liked aspects the challenge idea, as well- but formulating a process like this involves some give-and-take...


Sure, buddy, no problem, like I said, I'll go along with whatever is decided, so, cool, let's do it this way.


----------



## Almaviva

OK, the temptation is to vote smartly, go for the ones I care for that are in most need of advocacy, so to maximize the way my vote will count. But it doesn't seem fair to proceed this way since I'd have to betray my own order of preference, and there's enough of this in real world politics, so here I'd better be candid, at least for the top three.

I'll vote coherently as per my initial top 10:

1. Ring
2. Les Troyens (although I know it won't make it)
3. Tristan und Isolde

Now, for the three not in the list:

1. *Otello* - oh my God, how are you guys forgetting this one? Sorry Sospiro for Simon Boccanegra which I also love, but if we want to place another Verdi up there and La Traviata is already there, it's gotta be Otello! Simon has a confusing libretto, some pretty good father-daughter relationship (Verdi's hallmark) but does fail as far as theater is concerned in spite of exquisite music. Otello on the other hand has it all. Spectacular libretto, sophisticated orchestration by a master in full control of his trade, intense drama, arias that are giants in all of opera (Esultate! The Willow Song! Iago's bone chilling Credo! Ave Maria!). A list of top ten without Otello should be ashamed of itself! There!

2. Oh well, I guess I'm changing my mind about my initial top ten (it happens) and will skip La Boheme and Don Giovanni and go for my number 7, but how can we leave out *Die Meistersinger*, with its love affair with music? Aren't we music lovers ourselves? It's gotta touch us profoundly.

3. I'm having some second thoughts about having quoted *Norma* so high just on the account of one aria - Casta Diva - but again, to be coherent, I guess I'll stick with it. Let's not forget Mira O Norma as well. I guess we do need a Bel Canto opera in the top ten, it's a whole movement in the history of opera, it has delivered some of the most sublime moments for us opera lovers, so we need a true representative of the period and the style there - although La Traviata could arguably be such representative, but not entirely as you well know. So, if we pick a Bel Canto opera, which one would be better than Norma? Think of the greatest Normas of the past - Callas, Caballe... this is an important landmark in the history of opera and deserves a high spot.

OK, see you guys later, off to see Boris Godunov.


----------



## Elgarian

Gaston's list is so much more interesting for having a few well-chosen sentences attached to each, so I thought I'd follow suit and flesh my list out a bit (if only to discover what I'd say).

*1. Der Ring*
And yet when faced with writing a few sentences about this, how does one start? From a personal point of view, it was the first opera I ever latched on to, and for a few years was the only opera I had any patience with. It was so darn huge, and it seemed to outclass everything in every department. It can seem too grandiose, too epic, too ambitious, at times - but then, so can the universe. It satisfies all my requirements for unity within a work of art (however complex); it has such fantastic tunes, interwoven in such devious ways; it has moments so supercharged with feeling that I feel I might burst; it deals with themes that are archetypal, that touch us at the most profound level; and it's capable of providing a lifetime's worth of contemplation.

*2. La Boheme*
Like the _Ring_ (albeit on a smaller scale and in an entirely different way), it can last a lifetime. There are times when I listen to it today when it seems no less fresh, no less moving, than it did when I first was enchanted by it in the 1970s. If the criterion for this list had been to choose the operas I _love_ the most, then this would be the outright top of my list. Where else can you get tunes and singing like this? Tunes that catch at your heart regardless of how much you know about music, and which bring tears almost every time. Act 1 (as Gaston observes) is The One for that. The atmosphere of bohemian Paris should appeal to almost anyone who's ever been a student, full of dreams. But it isn't just a sentimental tear-jerker. The themes that it deals with are real human concerns - the longings we have when we're young; and the difficulties we encounter when the idealism has to confront real life; and the fact that so often our weaknesses cause us to lose the chances we're offered; and that we only recognise our folly when it's too late. When Rodolfo loses her at the end, he's doing what we all do at such times - like the whisky-priest in the Graham Greene novel who realises too late, in front of the firing squad, how easy it would have been to be a saint. And it's all there in the music.

*Giulio Cesare*
What worries me a little about this selection is that my choice is dominated by one outstanding performance of it (the one we all know). I've never seen a live performance; I rarely listen to my set of CDs. If I were to pick my favourite Handel opera purely from the point of view of how much I love its music, I'd choose _Ariodante_. I really only know _Giulio_ through that one famous and much-loved DVD. But thinking it through, it seems to me that no production can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, as it were. It isn't possible to make a mediocre opera great just by performing it well. So what the Glyndebourne team did was to allow the opera to realise its potential. Gaston's point is the telling one, for me - the measure of its greatness is the way in which the simple _da capo_ scheme can be made to sustain such a tirelessly engaging musical drama, as tune after tune pours out and leaves you humming them all around the house with a head packed full of images, long after the thing has finished.


----------



## World Violist

My three seconded operas are:

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Der Ring des Nibelungen
3. Les Troyens

My suggested additions:

1. Curlew River (Britten) - because it was the first opera that I actually unreservedly liked.
2. L'amour de loin (Saariaho) - because it's an incredible opera in general, completely non-bombastic in any way, shape, or form, and is a darn good start to this millennium.
3. I would like to edge out of supplying a third opera, but if I must have one I'll throw in Saint Francois d'Assise (Messiaen) for no apparent reason other than it's a third opera. If I don't need one, please tell me for future reference.


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## Almaviva

yay world violist has seconded les troyens way to go mate


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> Gaston's list is so much more interesting for having a few well-chosen sentences attached to each, so I thought I'd follow suit and flesh my list out a bit (if only to discover what I'd say).
> 
> *1. Der Ring*
> And yet when faced with writing a few sentences about this, how does one start? From a personal point of view, it was the first opera I ever latched on to, and for a few years was the only opera I had any patience with. It was so darn huge, and it seemed to outclass everything in every department. It can seem too grandiose, too epic, too ambitious, at times - but then, so can the universe. It satisfies all my requirements for unity within a work of art (however complex); it has such fantastic tunes, interwoven in such devious ways; it has moments so supercharged with feeling that I feel I might burst; it deals with themes that are archetypal, that touch us at the most profound level; and it's capable of providing a lifetime's worth of contemplation.
> 
> *2. La Boheme*
> Like the _Ring_ (albeit on a smaller scale and in an entirely different way), it can last a lifetime. There are times when I listen to it today when it seems no less fresh, no less moving, than it did when I first was enchanted by it in the 1970s. If the criterion for this list had been to choose the operas I _love_ the most, then this would be the outright top of my list. Where else can you get tunes and singing like this? Tunes that catch at your heart regardless of how much you know about music, and which bring tears almost every time. Act 1 (as Gaston observes) is The One for that. The atmosphere of bohemian Paris should appeal to almost anyone who's ever been a student, full of dreams. But it isn't just a sentimental tear-jerker. The themes that it deals with are real human concerns - the longings we have when we're young; and the difficulties we encounter when the idealism has to confront real life; and the fact that so often our weaknesses cause us to lose the chances we're offered; and that we only recognise our folly when it's too late. When Rodolfo loses her at the end, he's doing what we all do at such times - like the whisky-priest in the Graham Greene novel who realises too late, in front of the firing squad, how easy it would have been to be a saint. And it's all there in the music.
> 
> *Giulio Cesare*
> What worries me a little about this selection is that my choice is dominated by one outstanding performance of it (the one we all know). I've never seen a live performance; I rarely listen to my set of CDs. If I were to pick my favourite Handel opera purely from the point of view of how much I love its music, I'd choose _Ariodante_. I really only know _Giulio_ through that one famous and much-loved DVD. But thinking it through, it seems to me that no production can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, as it were. It isn't possible to make a mediocre opera great just by performing it well. So what the Glyndebourne team did was to allow the opera to realise its potential. Gaston's point is the telling one, for me - the measure of its greatness is the way in which the simple _da capo_ scheme can be made to sustain such a tirelessly engaging musical drama, as tune after tune pours out and leaves you humming them all around the house with a head packed full of images, long after the thing has finished.


i have no trouble whatsoever with giulio cesare ending up in the top ten even though i just know it from the glyndebourne production. it fully deserves it, after all handel is sadly underrated but is one of the greatest opera composers of all time. posted from boris godunov so i'm struggling with my cell phone small keyboard


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

My top 3 nominated:

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Le Nozze di Figaro
3. Der Ring des Nibelungen

My top 3 otherwise:

1. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
2. Boris Godunov
3. Wozzeck


----------



## Air

Top 3 on list:

1. Le Nozze di Figaro
2. Der Ring des Nibelungen
3. Tristan und Isolde

Top 3 besides:

1. Don Giovanni
2. Lulu
3. War and Peace


----------



## Rangstrom

1. Der Ring
2. Grimes
3. Tristan

Added:

1. Boito Mefistofele
2. Beethoven Fidelio
3. Mozart Don Giovanni


----------



## sospiro

Almaviva said:


> ... Sorry Sospiro for Simon Boccanegra which I also love, but if we want to place another Verdi up there and La Traviata is already there, it's gotta be Otello! _Simon has a confusing libretto_,


I agree Boccanegra is confusing at first, but because I love it so much I understand it now.



Almaviva said:


> ... some pretty good father-daughter relationship (Verdi's hallmark) but does fail as far as theater is concerned in spite of exquisite music.


I know I'm in the minority but I do think it's spectacular theatre. A short but melodic prelude & then no pretty chorus but straight into the story with two guys plotting in the darkness. A wonderful Verdi 'moment' with Simon getting elected Doge at the instant he finds the body of his dead lover. Finding his daughter after 25 years. Realising his former friend is now an enemy & commanding him to curse himself.

Fiesco discovering his much loved ward is his own grand daughter & has wasted 25 years hating Simon.

I love it for the things it _hasn't_ got. Only a couple of show piece arias & then not for the main character. He doesn't need them; it's his interaction with his rivals, his daughter & his enemies which produces the most spell-binding music.

The boy/girl love interest is there but secondary to the main story and neither of them die at the end.



Almaviva said:


> OK, see you guys later, off to see Boris Godunov.


Have fun & don't spend too much!


----------



## Almaviva

sure sospiro i love verdi anyway so i'm ok with boccanegra even though i prefer otello and la trav. hey, i *will* spend!


----------



## mamascarlatti

Elgarian said:


> *Giulio Cesare*
> What worries me a little about this selection is that my choice is dominated by one outstanding performance of it (the one we all know). I've never seen a live performance; I rarely listen to my set of CDs. If I were to pick my favourite Handel opera purely from the point of view of how much I love its music, I'd choose _Ariodante_. I really only know _Giulio_ through that one famous and much-loved DVD. But thinking it through, it seems to me that no production can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, as it were. It isn't possible to make a mediocre opera great just by performing it well. So what the Glyndebourne team did was to allow the opera to realise its potential. Gaston's point is the telling one, for me - the measure of its greatness is the way in which the simple _da capo_ scheme can be made to sustain such a tirelessly engaging musical drama, as tune after tune pours out and leaves you humming them all around the house with a head packed full of images, long after the thing has finished.


I have two DVDs and two Cds of this opera, and I love them all and listen to it frequently. I think this is the most consistently inventive of Handel's operas, and there are wonderful contrasts between langorous laments, "action" arias and love duets, also some striking interplays between instruments and singers. I also think the plot is reasonably coherent and believable.



Chi_townPhilly said:


> Cool. That means one of us still HAS hairs on his head


We can always send Gaston off to borrow some of Patricia's red hair dye.


----------



## Elgarian

mamascarlatti said:


> I have two DVDs and two Cds of this opera, and I love them all and listen to it frequently. I think this is the most consistently inventive of Handel's operas, and there are wonderful contrasts between langorous laments, "action" arias and love duets, also some striking interplays between instruments and singers. I also think the plot is reasonably coherent and believable.


Now you're talking. That's much more reassuring than my enthusiastic but limited personal perspective.


----------



## jflatter

Been reading this thread with interest. The top three of the list I would choose are

1. Der Ring des Nibelungen
2. Tristan und Isolde
3. Les Troyens

The three I would have on the list are

1. Parsifal
2. Les Contes d'Hoffman
3. Salome


----------



## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> OK, the temptation is to vote smartly, go for the ones I care for that are in most need of
> 1. *Otello* -
> Otello on the other hand has it all. Spectacular libretto, sophisticated orchestration by a master in full control of his trade, intense drama, arias that are giants in all of opera (Esultate! The Willow Song! Iago's bone chilling Credo! Ave Maria!). A list of top ten without Otello should be ashamed of itself! There!


I'm never even quite sure in my own head whether I prefer Otello or Don Carlos. In the end I think it comes down to the fact that Don Carlos has an instantly recognisable soundscape - you can just listen to a few notes and you know what opera it comes from. Also the plot is less primeval than Otello but the characters are more complex.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> I'm never even quite sure in my own head whether I prefer Otello or Don Carlos. In the end I think it comes down to the fact that Don Carlos has an instantly recognisable soundscape - you can just listen to a few notes and you know what opera it comes from. Also the plot is less primeval than Otello but the characters are more complex.


Don Carlo and Otello are probably tied as the two best Verdi operas, when I wear my objective hat. When I don't, I prefer La Traviata.


----------



## Almaviva

jflatter said:


> Been reading this thread with interest. The top three of the list I would choose are
> 
> 1. Der Ring des Nibelungen
> 2. Tristan und Isolde
> 3. Les Troyens
> 
> The three I would have on the list are
> 
> 1. Parsifal
> 2. Les Contes d'Hoffman
> 3. Salome


Yay! Three endorsements for Les Troyens!!! Does it mean it is safe? I kind of lost track of the rules.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Yay! Three endorsements for Les Troyens!!! Does it mean it is safe? I kind of lost track of the rules.


Depends on how many endorsements the others get.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Depends on how many endorsements the others get.


OK, folks, stop endorsing. Move on. Nothing to see here.:devil:


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Don Carlo and Otello are probably tied as the two best Verdi operas, when I wear my objective hat. When I don't, I prefer La Traviata.


I don't know. When you are wearing your 'objective hat' you're listening to what your brain tells you and when you get a tear in the corner of your eye and the shivers up and down your spine you're listening to what your heart tells you. Listening to your heart is just as important as listening to your brain.


----------



## jhar26

mamascarlatti said:


> We can always send Gaston off to borrow some of Patricia's red hair dye.


Not bad, but I'll stick with my Martha Argerich lookalike wig.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Almaviva said:


> Yay! Three endorsements for Les Troyens!!! Does it mean it is safe? I kind of lost track of the rules.


Okay, time for the 'exit-polling' correspondent to check in, with updated rankings (if not necessarily _totals_):

1. Der Ring des Nibelungen
2. Tristan und Isolde (with a late surge)
3. Le Nozze di Figaro
4. (t). Giulio Cesare
4. (t). Les Troyens (which makes my earlier query about whether or not it would receive a 'second' look pretty foolish.)
6. (t). La Bohème
6. (t). Carmen
6. (t). La Traviata
9. Simon Boccanegra
10. Peter Grimes

Right now, only the top two are really safe- and late-voting could change things drastically...

Supplemented by-
I. Don Giovanni
II. Die Meistersinger
III. Der Rosenkavalier
IV. (t). Cosi fan Tutte
IV. (t). Tosca
IV. (t). Salome


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> I don't know. When you are wearing your 'objective hat' you're listening to what your brain tells you and when you get a tear in the corner of your eye and the shivers up and down your spine you're listening to what your heart tells you. Listening to your heart is just as important as listening to your brain.


Excellent point.
Both approaches are valid, the cerebral and the emotional.:tiphat:


----------



## Almaviva

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Okay, time for the 'exit-polling' correspondent to check in, with updated rankings (if not necessarily _totals_):
> 
> 1. Der Ring des Nibelungen
> 2. Tristan und Isolde (with a late surge)
> 3. Le Nozze di Figaro
> 4. (t). Giulio Cesare
> 4. (t). Les Troyens (which makes my earlier query about whether or not it would receive a 'second' look pretty foolish.)
> 6. (t). La Bohème
> 6. (t). Carmen
> 6. (t). La Traviata
> 9. Simon Boccanegra
> 10. Peter Grimes
> 
> Right now, only the top two are really safe- and late-voting could change things drastically...
> 
> Supplemented by-
> I. Don Giovanni
> II. Die Meistersinger
> III. Der Rosenkavalier
> IV. (t). Cosi fan Tutte
> IV. (t). Tosca
> IV. (t). Salome


 My name is Viva-alma. I'm new to this board. I just read this thread and this is my very first post. No, I'm not that guy Almaviva. We just have similar screen names, tis all. See my nice shades? No, I won't remove them, you guys have no business seeing my real face. OK, so, let me do my endorsements.

1. Les Troyens
2. Les Troyens
3. Les Troyens


----------



## Contessa

I like the intent of the thread, but dont think it is really producing the 'right' results due to too few posters. Do you need to wait longer before voting on a top ten? Or have I misunderstood the system?
In the other Top 100 list posted by Almaviva in another thread (which I gotta say look more 'correct' (whatever that is) to me) Julio Cesare is ranked 71st, Les Troyens 32nd. Too high a differece here to have any credibility.
Principal of the poll is OK but needs many more posters to avoid one or two poster views skewing it.

FWIW, my nominations in no particular order, trying to be objective rather than influenced by personal favourites:
Le Nozze di Figaro
Der Ring des Nibelungen
Don Carlos
Rigoletto
Tristan und Isolde
Cosi Fan Tutte
Don Giovanni
La Traviata

Also, are people trying to spread their nominations among composers in a Desert Island Discs sort of way? Rather than really nominate the Best in their view. I feel that Cosi/Figaro/DonG are really all as good as each other. If you nominate one, you almost have to nominate all 3. Yet people seem limited to picking one (possibly their favourite) or at most two if they want to include a Mozart/DaPonte. Similar for Verdi, Wagner, Puccini. If you feel Otello should be there, surely you must feel that most of not all of the following are in the reckoning too : Traviata, Rigoletto, Ballo, SimonB, Don Carlos, Trovatore, Fastaff, Forza ? Similarly it pains me to see no Rossini there, but objetively I cannot justify including any as being better than at least 15 operas by Wagner+Verdi+Mozart.


----------



## Elgarian

Contessa said:


> Also, are people trying to spread their nominations among composers in a Desert Island Discs sort of way? Rather than really nominate the Best in their view. I feel that Cosi/Figaro/DonG are really all as good as each other. If you nominate one, you almost have to nominate all 3.


I think one of the things we decided is that we're not necessarily selecting the 'Best' (whatever that might mean), but the one we'd most wholeheartedly _recommend_ (for a multitude of reasons, assessed as best we can, individually). So what emerges is a list that this group of people, between themselves and each according to their lights, has chosen, using this system. Another group, or another system, would of course produce a different result. If we seriously thought the list would be in some way definitive, we'd be doomed to disappointment however we did it.

I think choosing between a batch of equally defensible frontrunners (eg Cosi/Figaro/DonG) is part of the fun (or the anguish, depending on how you look at it), though I do agree with you that the final list may look a bit odd - because yes of course, if Figaro is in the top ten then so should the other two be. But this would be a problem no matter what method we might choose. Which all goes to show that lists are silly but fun.

As for the number of voters - well, we are who we are, so I don't see how we get round that one.


----------



## Elgarian

Almaviva said:


> My name is Viva-alma.


I'm getting this really weird feeling of _deja-vu_. Have we met before, in another life?


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> I think one of the things we decided is that we're not necessarily selecting the 'Best' (whatever that might mean), but the one we'd most wholeheartedly _recommend_ (for a multitude of reasons, assessed as best we can, individually). So what emerges is a list that this group of people, between themselves and each according to their lights, has chosen, using this system. Another group, or another system, would of course produce a different result. If we seriously thought the list would be in some way definitive, we'd be doomed to disappointment however we did it.
> 
> I think choosing between a batch of equally defensible frontrunners (eg Cosi/Figaro/DonG) is part of the fun (or the anguish, depending on how you look at it), though I do agree with you that the final list may look a bit odd - because yes of course, if Figaro is in the top ten then so should the other two be. But this would be a problem no matter what method we might choose. Which all goes to show that lists are silly but fun.
> 
> As for the number of voters - well, we are who we are, so I don't see how we get round that one.


The number of voters doesn't have that much of an impact on it's quality. Most people's personal list here would in terms of quality probably come close to being as good as what we end up with collectively. But be that as it may (or not), I agree that the point of this thread is not to come up with some kind of 'definitive' list that should be carved in stone and end up at the entrance hall of the opera hall of fame. The aim is to come up with a list that reflects the collective opinion of the opera lovers on THIS forum, nothing more - nothing less.


----------



## jhar26

Contessa said:


> I like the intent of the thread, but dont think it is really producing the 'right' results due to too few posters. Do you need to wait longer before voting on a top ten? Or have I misunderstood the system?


Please read post #100. It won't tell you everything, but it will tell you enough to participate. You'll find out about the rest as we go along. 



> In the other Top 100 list posted by Almaviva in another thread (which I gotta say look more 'correct' (whatever that is) to me) Julio Cesare is ranked 71st, Les Troyens 32nd. Too high a differece here to have any credibility.


Maybe that other list has no credibility for giving Giulio Cesare only a ranking of 71. Handel is one of the great opera composers in history. Why shouldn't that be reflected on our list?


----------



## Almaviva

Contessa said:


> I like the intent of the thread, but dont think it is really producing the 'right' results due to too few posters. Do you need to wait longer before voting on a top ten? Or have I misunderstood the system?
> In the other Top 100 list posted by Almaviva in another thread (which I gotta say look more 'correct' (whatever that is) to me) Julio Cesare is ranked 71st, Les Troyens 32nd. Too high a differece here to have any credibility.
> Principal of the poll is OK but needs many more posters to avoid one or two poster views skewing it.
> 
> FWIW, my nominations in no particular order, trying to be objective rather than influenced by personal favourites:
> Le Nozze di Figaro
> Der Ring des Nibelungen
> Don Carlos
> Rigoletto
> Tristan und Isolde
> Cosi Fan Tutte
> Don Giovanni
> La Traviata
> 
> Also, are people trying to spread their nominations among composers in a Desert Island Discs sort of way? Rather than really nominate the Best in their view. I feel that Cosi/Figaro/DonG are really all as good as each other. If you nominate one, you almost have to nominate all 3. Yet people seem limited to picking one (possibly their favourite) or at most two if they want to include a Mozart/DaPonte. Similar for Verdi, Wagner, Puccini. If you feel Otello should be there, surely you must feel that most of not all of the following are in the reckoning too : Traviata, Rigoletto, Ballo, SimonB, Don Carlos, Trovatore, Fastaff, Forza ? Similarly it pains me to see no Rossini there, but objetively I cannot justify including any as being better than at least 15 operas by Wagner+Verdi+Mozart.


Good, another member interested in Opera, welcome to the forum. :tiphat:
Yes, you raise good points and we are aware of the methodological difficulties but we're doing this for fun and for the nice debates, and many operas that you've mentioned above will probably end up in the top 20 anyway, in the next chunk of nominations 11-20.

As for Les Troyens and Giulio Cesare, in this thread the defenders of these two have spelled out their reasons, and they are good reasons. Some operas are underrated but deserve more attention. I think this is the case for these two. I firmly believe that both belong in the top 10. They aren't ranked as high in other lists, but we haven't made the other lists, so, we can't say what their makers thought. We can speculate that their makers have failed to recognize the extreme importance and quality of these two top operas, which fortunately we did not.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Good, another member interested in Opera, welcome to the forum. :tiphat:
> Yes, you raise good points and we are aware of the methodological difficulties but we're doing this for fun and for the nice debates, and many operas that you've mentioned above will probably end up in the top 20 anyway, in the next chunk of nominations 11-20.


Probably, yes. Also - there are maybe thirty or forty operas that wouldn't be out of place in the top 10. Unfortunately it's impossible to put 40 operas into a top 10.


----------



## World Violist

jhar26 said:


> Probably, yes. Also - there are maybe thirty or forty operas that wouldn't be out of place in the top 10. Unfortunately it's impossible to put 40 operas into a top 10.


Oh, yes it is. If it's possible to make a quiz in which you can get more than 10 out of 10 wrong, what's the problem with this? :tiphat:


----------



## Almaviva

World Violist said:


> Oh, yes it is. If it's possible to make a quiz in which you can get more than 10 out of 10 wrong, what's the problem with this? :tiphat:


The UWP recommends that people put 40 operas in their top 10, so to minimize the number of those that go unwatched.


----------



## sospiro

Almaviva said:


> The UWP recommends that people put 40 operas in their top 10, so to minimize the number of those that go unwatched.


Now you're just being silly. :lol:

As if poor Gaston hasn't got enough to do what with keeping up with this & keeping us in check.


----------



## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> Unfortunately it's impossible to put 40 operas into a top 10.


But moderators have special powers, right?


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> But moderators have special powers, right?


Yes, for a long time I couldn't decide between becoming a mod here or starting my own cult.


----------



## emiellucifuge

So..... Now what?


----------



## jhar26

Ok guys, no more voting. I'm about to announce the results.


----------



## sospiro

jhar26 said:


> Ok guys, no more voting. I'm about to announce the results.


I'm glad you know what's going on! I lost the plot several pages ago but it's great fun all the same & reading some opinions has given me food for thought.


----------



## emiellucifuge

How long do we have to wait?!?!?!?!?!?!
:scold:


----------



## jhar26

Result of our originally nominated Operas

In terms of the number of people that voted for them:

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen - 10 votes
-2 Tristan und Isolde - 8
-3 Le Nozze di Figaro - 4
-4 Les Troyens - 3
-5 Giulio Cesare - 3*

The above five have made it and are certain of a place in the top 10.

....And these five will have to do battle with the winners of our other poll.

-6 La Boheme - 2
-7 Carmen - 2
-8 La Traviata - 2
-9 Simon Boccanegra - 1
10 Peter Grimes - 1

The way in which you ranked them comes into play in case of a draw like we had here with numbers six to eight, but here too we can't seperate them because all three had one #2 and one #3 ranking on your lists.

Results of the other poll coming up....


----------



## jhar26

Result of our alternative choices

-1 Don Giovanni - 4 votes
-2 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg - 3
-3 Der Rosenkavalier - 2
-4 Cosi Fan Tutte - 2
-5 Tosca - 2
-6 Salome - 2

All other operas you guys listed got just the one vote. Tosca, Cosi Fan Tutte and Salome all have one #2 and one #3 ranking to their credit. Der Rosenkavalier got one #1 and one #3 ranking, but all will move on to the next phase.


----------



## jhar26

*THE SECOND PHASE - New Round of Voting*

La Boheme
Carmen 
La Traviata
Simon Boccanegra
Peter Grimes 
Don Giovanni 
Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
Der Rosenkavalier
Cosi Fan Tutte
Tosca
Salome

Eleven operas. Five of them will join the five that have already made it into our top 10. Please select *FIVE* operas from the above list and put them in your order of preference. Your number one will get five points, your number two four points, and so on. The five operas that collect the most points move into the top 10.


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
2. Don Giovanni
3. La Traviata
4. Der Rosenkavalier
5. Carmen


----------



## jhar26

My five....

-1 Der Rosenkavalier 
-2 Don Giovanni 
-3 Cosi Fan Tutte
-4 La Boheme 
-5 La Traviata


----------



## sospiro

1.	Simon Boccanegra
2.	Carmen
3.	Tosca
4.	La Traviata
5.	Don Giovanni


----------



## emiellucifuge

1. La traviata
2. Salome
3. Die meistersinger
4. La boheme
5. Peter grimes


----------



## Elgarian

1. La Boheme
2. Der Rosenkavalier
3. Cosi Fan Tutte
4. Don Giovanni
5. Tosca


Isn't this intriguing in a weird 'what-the-heck-is-going-on' kind of way?


----------



## Contessa

Almaviva said:


> Good, another member interested in Opera, welcome to the .


Thank You. Nice forum.


----------



## Contessa

1 Don Giovanni
2 Cosi fan Tutte
3 La Traviata
4 Simon Boccanegra
5 La Boheme


----------



## World Violist

1- Der Rosenkavalier
2- Der Meistersinger
3- Salome
4- Peter Grimes
5- Don Giovanni


----------



## Almaviva

1. La Traviata
2. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
3. Don Giovanni
4. Der Rosenkavalier
5. La Boheme

About the top five - I'm really thrilled that _Les Troyens _made it. I know, this is just a list we 15 or 20 guys and gals put together, but I care for this opera so much, that I have tears in my eyes. Life was so unfair to Berlioz! He was such a genius, his works were so sublime and so underrated... That we can get together and consider his _Les Troyens _one of our top 5 recommended operas, is a small but nice late tribute to his genius.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> *THE SECOND PHASE - New Round of Voting*
> 
> La Boheme
> Carmen
> La Traviata
> Simon Boccanegra
> Peter Grimes
> Don Giovanni
> Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
> Der Rosenkavalier
> Cosi Fan Tutte
> Tosca
> Salome
> 
> Eleven operas. Five of them will join the five that have already made it into our top 10. Please select *FIVE* operas from the above list and put them in your order of preference. Your number one will get five points, your number two four points, and so on. The five operas that collect the most points move into the top 10.


But will the extra points that some of these got in the first phase still count? Some of these got two votes versus one for others, so, I think that the extra point should be added to their total at the end of the vote.


----------



## mamascarlatti

1. Don Giovanni 
2. La Traviata
3. Carmen 
4. Tosca
5. La Boheme


----------



## jhar26

sospiro said:


> I'm glad you know what's going on!


I wouldn't count on it.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> About the top five - I'm really thrilled that _Les Troyens _made it. I know, this is just a list we 15 or 20 guys and gals put together, but I care for this opera so much, that I have tears in my eyes. Life was so unfair to Berlioz! He was such a genius, his works were so sublime and so underrated... That we can get together and consider his _Les Troyens _one of our top 5 recommended operas, is a small but nice late tribute to his genius.


It's not one of our top 5 recommended operas yet. But it's assured a place in the top 10.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> But will the extra points that some of these got in the first phase still count? Some of these got two votes versus one for others, so, I think that the extra point should be added to their total at the end of the vote.


Help! You explain it to him, Alan. :lol:


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Help! You explain it to him, Alan. :lol:


My head has been spinning for a while already with all the rules, but I'm happy enough with _Les Troyens _making it into the top five top ten top something.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> My head has been spinning for a while already with all the rules.


Mine too, but starting from the next round onwards (when we get to numbers 11 to 20) I'm going to make the rules much simpler.


----------



## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> Help! You explain it to him, Alan. :lol:


Yes of course. We start with the number of votes cast in total, add fifteen, divide by the number we first thought of, add seven newt's tails, turn round three times on the spot waving a pink umbrella, and take a pill.

Where's the problem?


----------



## World Violist

Elgarian said:


> Yes of course. We start with the number of votes cast in total, add fifteen, divide by the number we first thought of, add seven newt's tails, turn round three times on the spot waving a pink umbrella, and take a pill.
> 
> Where's the problem?


Boil, bubble, toil and trouble...

Oh, I'm sorry *coughs*

For 'e's a jolly good fellow, for 'e's a jolly good fellow...

The problem is the intervals at which we should add the newt's tails.


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> Yes of course. We start with the number of votes cast in total, add fifteen, divide by the number we first thought of, add seven newt's tails, turn round three times on the spot waving a pink umbrella, and take a pill.
> 
> Where's the problem?


Oh. Now that you put it this way, it's crystal clear. Stupid me, why didn't I get it before?


----------



## Elgarian

Hold front page stop headline news stop sudden sales rush on pink umbrellas stop newt crisis stop


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Okay, then...

1. Carmen *a top-10 operas list without* _Carmen_ *seems absurd*.
2. La Bohème *a top-10 operas list without a Puccini opera seems absurd*.
3. La Traviata *a top-10 operas list without a Verdi opera seems absurd*.
4. Don Giovanni *a top-10 operas list without Don Giovanni isn't necessarily full-on absurd... but it's suspect...*
5.Die Meistersigner von Nürnberg *a brief concession to my personal preference.*


----------



## World Violist

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Okay, then...
> 
> 1. Carmen *a top-10 operas list without* _Carmen_ *seems absurd*.
> 2. La Bohème *a top-10 operas list without a Puccini opera seems absurd*.
> 3. La Traviata *a top-10 operas list without a Verdi opera seems absurd*.
> 4. Don Giovanni *a top-10 operas list without Don Giovanni isn't necessarily full-on absurd... but it's suspect...*
> 5.Die Meistersigner von Nürnberg *a brief concession to my personal preference.*


I like your thinking.


----------



## jflatter

1. Salome
2. Don Giovanni
3. Die Meistersinger
4. Der Rosenkavalier
5. La Traviata


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Contessa said:


> In the other Top 100 list posted by Almaviva in another thread (which I gotta say look more 'correct' (whatever that is) to me) Julio Cesare is ranked 71st, Les Troyens 32nd. Too high a differece here to have any credibility.


I've waited a while to address this- and I hope this case can be made more credible by the dispassionate examination of a NON-fan of these operas.

1. I could write hundreds of words about my ongoing scepticism of Handel operas, and my lingering unwillingness to consider Handel operas among the greatest of all time. However, we have to acknowledge three things- 
a) in spite of seeming to attract more than his share of hyperbolic claims concerning his supremacy, the fact remains that on any credible list of great composers, Handel is found on such lists- invariably in the top-dozen, and nearly always in the top 10.
b) those who have studied Handel most closely tend to agree that his operas deserve esteem at least equal to his most inspired concert-hall creations. and 
c) _Guilio Cesare_ is the most widely-appreciated of his operas.

So you have an all-time great composer, with as much mastery of the operatic form as anyone who had yet lived by that time, with (arguably) his greatest operatic composition. Viewed in that light, it doesn't at all seem out of place on a 'Top-10' list.

2. I'm still reluctant to embrace _Les Troyens_ by Berlioz- but consider the position of Donald Grout (yes, THAT Donald Grout), who presumably knows a thing or two about musical masterpieces. He argued that-
a) _Les Troyens_ can be considered (in his words) a 'Latin Ring.' [sound familiar?]
b) its relative neglect can be analogized to the late 18th century-early 19th century ignorance of the Bach _St. Matthew Passion_, and
c) that Francophone countries should perform it repeatedly at government-expense until the they, and the remainder of the world are brought 'round to acknowledging its greatness.

Like Yogi Berra says, "you can see a lot just by lookin'!"


----------



## mamascarlatti

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Like Yogi Berra says, "you can see a lot just by lookin'!"


Watching it right now (actually alma is round at my place and he's super-glued me to the sofa until I've finished it. He's saying something about being more informed before you post next next time. He's also threatened to put _his _newts in my briefcase if I don't say I love it). Watch this space.


----------



## mamascarlatti

1. Don Giovanni 
2. Carmen 
3. La Traviata
4. Tosca
5. Der Rosenkavalier


----------



## Elgarian

mamascarlatti said:


> He's also threatened to put _his _newts in my briefcase if I don't say I love it.


Empty threat. There's a worldwide newt shortage now.

One of the outcomes of this project already is that I shall make a point of acquainting myself with _Les Troyens_ - one of the 5 billion operas that I've never heard, nor seen.


----------



## Almaviva

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I've waited a while to address this- and I hope this case can be made more credible by the dispassionate examination of a NON-fan of these operas.
> 
> a) _Les Troyens_ can be considered (in his words) a 'Latin Ring.' [sound familiar?]
> b) its relative neglect can be analogized to the late 18th century-early 19th century ignorance of the Bach _St. Matthew Passion_, and
> c) that Francophone countries should perform it repeatedly at government-expense until the they, and the remainder of the world are brought 'round to acknowledging its greatness.


Yep, just like I said in post number 60:

"For me, it's the French Ring. It's the only other opera that can compare with the Ring."

"I believe governmental institutions, especially the French, should eat up the costs and stage it repeatedly until the public realizes its grandeur"


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> Empty threat. There's a worldwide newt shortage now.


Haven't you heard of a useful appliance called a freezer? One of my freezer drawers is chockful of newts.:devil: I think I've even managed to keep some of them alive, I'll have to thaw them carefully. I'm a prudent man and I was already anticipating that sooner or later there would be a newt shortage.



> One of the outcomes of this project already is that I shall make a point of acquainting myself with _Les Troyens_


You better, or else.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> You better, or else.


Maybe he can rent it from you for $25.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Maybe he can rent it from you for $25.


Never! The going rate for me to spend more than three days apart from my beloved copy of _Les Troyens_ is $250, plus a legal suit claiming emotional hardship.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> Watching it right now (actually alma is round at my place and he's super-glued me to the sofa until I've finished it. He's saying something about being more informed before you post next next time. He's also threatened to put _his _newts in my briefcase if I don't say I love it). Watch this space.


Well if I can't thaw my frozen newts properly, live scorpions will do.:devil:


----------



## World Violist

For goodness' sake, has nobody ever heard of Netflix???


----------



## emiellucifuge

Time for some Monty Python:






"She turned me into a newt"


----------



## Almaviva

World Violist said:


> For goodness' sake, has nobody ever heard of Netflix???


Not the Non-Americans, no.
They don't have it overseas.

And there is another slight problem (now that _Les Troyens _has been safely enshrined in the top 10, I can say; couldn't before lest people would doubt its importance):

Netflix doesn't carry _Les Troyens._


----------



## mamascarlatti

World Violist said:


> For goodness' sake, has nobody ever heard of Netflix???


For goodness sake they don't post to NZ!

On the other hand my local Auckland city library has just amalgamated with other libraries in the Auckland region, and the purchasing person in Papakura is obviously an opera enthusiast, and the DVD charge has gone down from $5 a week to $2 a week, so my budget options are looking brighter. On the down side this has just added another 71 DVDs to my UWP.

As for newts, I'm channelling Gussy Fink-Nottle (time for a Brit allusion here) and I'm cornering the black market in Live Unfrozen Newts.


----------



## World Violist

Almaviva said:


> Not the Non-Americans, no.
> They don't have it overseas.
> 
> And there is another slight problem (now that _Les Troyens _has been safely enshrined in the top 10, I can say; couldn't before lest people would doubt its importance):
> 
> Netflix doesn't carry _Les Troyens._


This is simply ridiculous. Every word of the quoted post is utterly ridiculous. I mean, seriously, if people can't escape the UWP overseas... I don't know what to say.


----------



## Air

1. Don Giovanni
2. Der Rosenkavalier
3. La Boheme
4. La Traviata
5. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> For goodness sake they don't post to NZ!
> 
> On the other hand my local Auckland city library has just amalgamated with other libraries in the Auckland region, and the purchasing person in Papakura is obviously an opera enthusiast, and the DVD charge has gone down from $5 a week to $2 a week, so my budget options are looking brighter. On the down side this has just added another 71 DVDs to my UWP.
> 
> As for newts, I'm channelling Gussy Fink-Nottle (time for a Brit allusion here) and I'm cornering the black market in Live Unfrozen Newts.


Whaaaat? You have to pay for stuff in your *public* library???
Over here it's free, babe.
Well if you get a grip on the black market for newts and my thawed ones die out, I'll just have to go with tarantulas. I got plenty left after yesterday's Halloween since most of my friends like _Les Troyens. _I had to use a couple of tarantulas on those who didn't - and I can say that they won't be around any longer to put down that masterpiece - but I got about 17 left (it's hard to count because they get all entangled in my tarantula box, since I keep them hungry for more effectiveness and they go berserk inside the box). This should hold me throughout the next 9 rounds here, if judiciously used.


----------



## Almaviva

World Violist said:


> I don't think there's a libretto. The only one with the libretto is the more expensive van Dam one. Apparently you can find a libretto online or something, but I've got no idea where.
> 
> They have rereleased the van Dam one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846 still no libretto though, but it is the complete opera.


It has arrived, the box is a little worn out but the discs seem to be in good shape, and so is the libretto. Soon enough I'll report back to you on what I think of it, but not immediately (for now it joins my UW/ULT pile) since I have other priorities (will be listening to The Cunning Little Vixen tonight).


----------



## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> Whaaaat? You have to pay for stuff in your *public* library???
> Over here it's free, babe.


DVDS and CDs, not books, although the fines for overdues are hefty.

As for tarantulas, I'm planning to import an attack komodo dragon to kick your *** and eat your arachnids.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> DVDS and CDs, not books, although the fines for overdues are hefty.
> 
> As for tarantulas, I'm planning to import an attack komodo dragon to kick your *** and eat your arachnids.


This one does look a little scarier than that doofus male doll you had selected as your champion before. Oh well, I guess I'll have to appeal to _Les Troyens_ themselves for the right answer. From act one:


----------



## World Violist

Maybe there should be an "Operatic Mortal Combat" page as well... I'm not gonna start it, I don't want the blame! I'm already responsible for the UWP... they'll be knocking at my door any minute! I DIDN'T ASK FOR THIS!!!


----------



## Almaviva

World Violist said:


> Maybe there should be an "Operatic Mortal Combat" page as well... I'm not gonna start it, I don't want the blame! I'm already responsible for the UWP... they'll be knocking at my door any minute! I DIDN'T ASK FOR THIS!!!


Too late. They are coming for you.


----------



## World Violist

Almaviva said:


> Too late. They are coming for you.


I have to admit, that doll does look quite terrifying.

When is the next step? I hate getting off topic for such an extended number of posts.


----------



## Almaviva

World Violist said:


> I have to admit, that doll does look quite terrifying.
> 
> When is the next step? I hate getting off topic for such an extended number of posts.


That doll is you.

I was thinking the same thing. We've been killing time here, waiting for the next step. I guess Gaston is giving the membership the required 48 hours, that's why he hasn't tallied the votes yet. But if the moderators want to wipe out this whole OT discussion in order to keep the thread focused, fine with me, we've had our fun already.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Well don't forget the europeans are presently sleeping, give them a chance. It's late afternoon here and way past your bedtime, guys, by my calculations.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> Well don't forget the europeans are presently sleeping, give them a chance. It's late afternoon here and way past your bedtime, guys, by my calculations.


I know. I have a terrible cough which is preventing me from sleeping, that's why I'm still going. I took a cough supressant but it didn't help. I got back from NY with a virus, because of the abrupt change in temperature that happened mid way through our stay there.


----------



## World Violist

Almaviva said:


> I know. I have a terrible cough which is preventing me from sleeping, that's why I'm still going. I took a cough supressant but it didn't help. I got back from NY with a virus, because of the abrupt change in temperature that happened mid way through our stay there.


Similar here, actually (I've got a nasty cough, anyway; no New York or virus). I've been trying to sleep for the last hour and a half and then gave up for a little while.


----------



## Almaviva

World Violist said:


> Similar here, actually (I've got a nasty cough, anyway; no New York or virus). I've been trying to sleep for the last hour and a half and then gave up for a little while.


Oh well, I turned the computer off and tried to sleep for half an hour, continued to cough, turned the computer on again. I'll go to the kitchen and take another dose of that cough suppressant even though it's supposed to be every four hours and it's still early for the next dose but I don't care, this cough is driving me crazy.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Bad luck guys, hope you get better soon. Maybe an excuse for a large dose of lemon, honey and whisky. If you put enough whisky in you probably won't notice the cough.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> Bad luck guys, hope you get better soon. Maybe an excuse for a large dose of lemon, honey and whisky. If you put enough whisky in you probably won't notice the cough.


As long as your recipe doesn't include newt tails...


----------



## jhar26

Natalie - which of your lists is the real one. The one in post #163 or the one in post #178?


----------



## mamascarlatti

jhar26 said:


> Natalie - which of your lists is the real one. The one in post #163 or the one in post #178?


It's all the wildlife round at my place. I don't know where to turn for newts and tarantulas and komodo dragons. I can't even remember posting 178. It's 163.


----------



## jhar26

mamascarlatti said:


> It's all the wildlife round at my place. I don't know where to turn for newts and tarantulas and komodo dragons. I can't even remember posting 178. It's 163.


Ok, thanks.


----------



## jhar26

*RESULTS*

I first mention the number of votes followed by the number of points. Number of votes is the most important while the points totals are used as tiebreakers where necessary.

These five move into our top 10.

*Don Giovanni (Mozart)*...11/36
*La Traviata (Verdi)*...10/29
*La Boheme (Puccini)*...8/19
*Der Rosenkavalier (Strauss) *...7/24
*Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg (Wagner)*...7/21

These four got three or four votes - enough to automatically qualify them for our contest for places 11-20.

*Carmen (Bizet)*...4/13
*Salome (Strauss)*...3/12
*Cosi fan Tutte (Mozart)*...3/10
*Tosca (Puccini)*...3/6

And these two will have to go for now.

*Simon Boccanegra (Verdi)*...2/7
*Peter Grimes (Britten)*...2/3


----------



## jhar26

TOP 10

After some consideration we've decided to keep our top five as it was since it spares us another round of voting with the same operas. The five winners from the vote we've just completed fill out our top 10.

So - this means.....

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*

*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-4 Les Troyens*

*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*

Before we move on to positions 11 to 20 we still need to settle positions four and five since they ended up in a perfect draw. So please tell us which opera you want as our number four - Giulio Cesare or Les Troyens. I will not vote myself unless there is another draw. You have two days to vote.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Giulio Cesare, although I am enjoying Les Troyens.


----------



## Vic

May I join in?

I think Les Troyens should be on 4.


----------



## jhar26

Vic said:


> May I join in?
> 
> I think Les Troyens should be on 4.


Of course you can join in. Thanks for your vote.


----------



## jflatter

Les Troyens for me


----------



## Elgarian

Awkward. I can only vote for _Giulio_, because I don't know _Troyens_ at all. Should I abstain?


----------



## emiellucifuge

No please dont Elgarian! 

I vote for Giulio


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> Awkward. I can only vote for _Giulio_, because I don't know _Troyens_ at all. Should I abstain?


To be fair, yeah! I'm sure that the minute you see Les Troyens you'll realize that it should be number four.

My vote: Les Troyens.

The top ten came up very pleasing indeed. It's a good list! Congratulations, Gaston!


----------



## World Violist

Les Troyens pour moi.


----------



## Elgarian

Just want to add my two-pennyworth too, about the process - it really _is_ a good list, isn't it? The method hasn't actually come up with anything silly at all, despite our fears that it might. Congrats to all.

Thinking over the matter further, I think the difficulty of abstaining over _Giulio/Troyens_ is that it sets a precedent for a situation that we're going to encounter again and again as we work onwards, moving into less well-known operas that some of us aren't familiar with. I'm only a part-time opera fan, after all, and I might end up unable to vote for operas I love just because I'm unfamiliar with the competition they happen (quite by chance) to come up against.

So ... I'll vote for _Giulio Cesare_. I'd be very happy to see it at no. 4.


----------



## World Violist

Elgarian said:


> Just want to add my two-pennyworth too, about the process - it really _is_ a good list, isn't it? The method hasn't actually come up with anything silly at all, despite our fears that it might. Congrats to all.


Just wait till I nominate the Abduction of Figaro!:devil:


----------



## mamascarlatti

Elgarian said:


> Thinking over the matter further, I think the difficulty of abstaining over _Giulio/Troyens_ is that it sets a precedent for a situation that we're going to encounter again and again as we work onwards, moving into less well-known operas that some of us aren't familiar with. I'm only a part-time opera fan, after all, and I might end up unable to vote for operas I love just because I'm unfamiliar with the competition they happen (quite by chance) to come up against.


Don't forget that it's a list of operas recommended by TC members. And we can't recommend what we don't know, but if we have heard something and recommend it, that's valid.

The best result would be if people are motivated to explore sonething they might not otherwise have tried (like me moving Les Troyens up to the top of my UWP pile).


----------



## Elgarian

mamascarlatti said:


> Don't forget that it's a list of operas recommended by TC members. And we can't recommend what we don't know, but if we have heard something and recommend it, that's valid.


Impeccable logic. I like this way of thinking!


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## Elgarian

World Violist said:


> Just wait till I nominate the Abduction of Figaro!:devil:


Just wait till I _vote_ for it!


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> TOP 10
> 
> After some consideration we've decided to keep our top five as it was since it spares us another round of voting with the same operas. The five winners from the vote we've just completed fill out our top 10.
> 
> So - this means.....
> 
> *-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
> *-2 Tristan und Isolde*
> *-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
> 
> *-4 Giulio Cesare*
> *-4 Les Troyens*
> 
> *-6 Don Giovanni*
> *-7 La Traviata*
> *-8 La Boheme*
> *-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
> *10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
> 
> Before we move on to positions 11 to 20 we still need to settle positions four and five since they ended up in a perfect draw. So please tell us which opera you want as our number four - Giulio Cesare or Les Troyens. I will not vote myself unless there is another draw. You have two days to vote.


We could already move to 11 to 20, and just remind people from time to time that for the next day and a half they can still weigh in on the issue of Les Troyens vs. Giulio Cesare. It's not like our final list of 100 is getting ready anyway, so, we could move on to the next chunk while simultaneously we settle the number 4 position.


----------



## jhar26

*NEW NOMINATION ROUND*

These are the operas you can *NOT* nominate because they are already got their (top 10) ranking.....

Der Ring des Nibelungen, Tristan und Isolde, Le Nozze di Figaro, Giulio Cesare, Les Troyens, Don Giovanni, La Traviata, La Boheme, Der Rosenkavalier and Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg.

Already nominated are Carmen, Salome, Cosi fan Tutte and Tosca. So don't nominate any of these either.

Keeping that in mind - please list your *TOP 5* choices. The six that get the most votes and/or points will join the four that have already earned their place in our next group of ten that will make up positions 11 to 20 on our final list.


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## World Violist

1- Enescu: Oedipe
2- Britten: Curlew River
3- Saariaho: L'amour de loin
4- Messiaen: Saint Francois d'Assise
5- Norgard: Nuit des Hommes


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Elgarian said:


> Just want to add my two-pennyworth too, about the process - it really _is_ a good list, isn't it? The method hasn't actually come up with anything silly at all, despite our fears that it might.


Yup, _that's_ a good point. Along the way, Gaston made some "executive decisions," 
and every 'on-the-fly' adjustment he made has been to the benefit of the outcome.:tiphat:

Still, the process isn't possible without the input of our users- 
and we're grateful for everyone who's stayed along for the ride.

We got our Puccini opera into the top-10, we got our Verdi opera into the top-10:trp:, and we got the Don into the top-10:devil:! We're missing my girl _Carmen_, but I can't complain too much if her space has been yielded to Hans, Eva, Walther and all of the other Pegnitz-side folks in _Die Meistersinger_!

And for the record, I'll put in a tie-breaking vote for _Les Troyens_, although I'm basing my decision on the "extraits."


----------



## jhar26

Thanks for the nice words everyone. I appreciate them but the only reason why the list is so good is because of the excellent taste of our members who voted for those operas.


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## Almaviva

1. Otello
2. Norma
3. Boris Godunov
4. La Damnation de Faust
5. Lucia di Lammermoor

Like I said, I think we should do debate a little more. I think we should at least defend our choices.
I've already defended Otello and Norma in a previous post on the first page of this thread (the only two operas in my original top 10 that didn't make it into the collective top 10). So obviously if I thought these two should be in the top 10, then ditto for the top 20.

Now, why do I think the other three deserve a spot in the top 20 as well?

Boris Godunov is an incredibly important, incredibly popular opera in Russia. It is not as melodious as Eugene Onegin, but it is much more impressive in terms of its force, impact, Russian soul, and over-reaching political arc. Much has been said about deficiencies of Mussorgsky's orchestration but I actually think it is VERY good, with rough, edgy music that matches perfectly the violence and disruptive forces at work in this opera. The opera has personal drama as well as political theater. It concerns the common men and royalty. It is based upon a top source in terms of literary value. We have already selected 14 operas and haven't recommended a single Russian opera yet. It's time to do it, and Boris Godunov is that opera.

La Damnation de Faust - Again this genius Berlioz got everything right. Some will object that it is not an opera, but don't be stopped by this. In all classifications of top operas, it is duly included. Berlioz agreed upon its staging as an opera still during his lifetime and provided staging directions, therefore it's an opera. And what a mighty good one it is! I believe it to be vastly superior to other treatments of the same story. First, in its libretto, authored by Berlioz himself, and very poetic. Second, in character development. Both Faust and Mefisto are very well constructed characters. You can feel Faust's boredom, then his slow slide into dangerous territory, then his debauchery, then his damnation and despair. The devil is wickedly evil! It's the most despicable one in all of opera. It is sarcastic, cunning, manipulative. Then again, something that Berlioz was an expert in: pace. The theatrical possibilities are formidable, because the action literally gallops with one exciting event after the other. Finally, the OUTSTANDING orchestration! Berlioz is such a master of tone painting! There is calm and sweet pastoral music, lovely romantic music, evil music, and finally, the Faust's final ride and perdition is one of the most terrifying and colorful pieces in all of music. Bravo again, Berlioz, and please folks, don't think we've given enough attention to him by placing his Les Troyens at number 4 (fully deserved). We can afford another Berlioz in the top 20, for the simple fact that La Damnation de Faust *is* a top 20 opera.

Lucia - well, if we have been spreading our recommendations around the major composers with several Wagners, a couple of Verdis, several Mozarts, a couple of Berliozes, a Bizet, a Puccini, a Bellini (if my Norma makes it), a coupe of Strausses, then it's high time to have a Donizetti. And what better Donizetti than Lucia di Lammermoor? The sheer beauty and tragic impact of the Mad Scene on its own would justify Lucia in any list of top 20, and then we still have the luxury of including it for one of the most striking sextets in all of opera. This is Bel Canto at its second best (only Norma is above it, in my opinion) and its enduring popularity also points to the fact that no list of top 20 is complete without Lucia.


----------



## Webernite

1. Parsifal
2. Die Zauberflote
3. Elektra
4. Castor et Pollux
5. Moses und Aron


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

I'll have to abstain from voting for _Les Troyens_ or _Giulio Cesare_, as I'm not familiar with either.

1. Boris Godunov
2. Wozzeck
3. Parsifal
4. Die Zauberflöte
5. Otello


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

A) *Die Zauberflöte*
(my favorite Mozart opera, and my pick for best German-language opera B.W. [before Wagner]).
B) *Parsifal*
(sharing a plateau with other Wagner masterpieces, and possibly the most _musically_ interesting of the Wagner operas). I've said before, either that one or Götterdämmerung.
C) *Aïda* 
D) *Tannhäuser* 
(maybe not the most immediately accessible Wagner story, to 21st century audiences [but then, is _Cosi_ any more accessible?]- I still think it may be the single most imperfectly-understood opera...)
E) *The Bartered Bride* ("dying is easy... _comedy_ is hard.")


----------



## World Violist

OK, if we're getting all defensive about stuff...



World Violist said:


> 1- Enescu: Oedipe
> 2- Britten: Curlew River
> 3- Saariaho: L'amour de loin
> 4- Messiaen: Saint Francois d'Assise
> 5- Norgard: Nuit des Hommes


1- I've already talked about it in post... um... 4, that's it.
2- It's been my favorite opera for a long time, and I've said before that I find it grossly underrated by any standard, let alone among Britten's works.
3- We all know what I think about this one.
4- Inspired L'amour de loin and is Messiaen's masterpiece. Contemplative to the extreme (which is, after all, one of the hallmarks of my list of favorites in general).
5- Bizarre, disturbing, reactionary, revolutionary, revelatory, etc. etc. It's really quite the trip if you get around to hearing (or better yet seeing) it.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Otello
Don Carlos
Dido and Aeneas
Eugene Onegin
La Fanciulla del West


----------



## Almaviva

To boost Lucia's case:

Sextet






"Regnava el silencio"






Mad Scene






Who is this beautiful soprano, by the way? I don't think I've ever seen her before.


----------



## jflatter

1. Parsifal
2. Don Carlos
3. Les Contes d'Hoffman
4. Lohengrin
5. Il Barbiere di Siviglia

Apologies for any spelling as doing on my phone on long bus journey to work due to tube strike.


----------



## Vic

1. Rusalka
2. Wozzek
3. Parsifal
4. Jenufa
5. Die Fledermaus (it is good entertainment)


----------



## Elgarian

Already I can feel my too limited range affecting my judgement. I'm conscious of missing out potentially more deserving operas merely because I haven't heard/seen them (yet), or know them well enough. Still, here goes:

1. Manon
2. Ariodante
3. Madama Butterfly
4. I Capuletti e i Montecchi
5. L'Orfeo

Comments:

1. *Manon*. The fact that somehow Manon escaped being considered for a place in the top ten flags up a possible weakness in our system, I suspect, but the best I can do to remedy that is to put it at the top of my list. Sir Thomas Beecham said he'd swap all the Brandenburg Concertos for Manon, and so would I (and still be willing to give extra). It represents Massenet at his tiptop best. It has unforgettable tunes, exquisitely interwoven, and yet they're handled with a restraint that often comes as a welcome relief to the kind of full-on emotional assault that we get in Puccini. It has a delicious _Frenchness_ about it, and it evokes deep emotions without tipping over into sentimentality. The best sign of its greatness, for me, is that it can stand up to the kind of repeated hammering that I've given it. I've seen it live, I've seen it on DVD, and I've listened to it on CD over and over again, and it gets better and better.

2. *Ariodante*. I went along with the _Giulio Cesare_ votes, but actually this is my favourite Handel opera. It's a compelling story of mistaken betrayal, but its chief attraction for me is the way the opera pivots on two central moments, marked by what I think may be the two greatest _da capo_ arias ever written: 'Scherza infida', and 'Doppo notte'. I can't imagine how music could better depict the polarity of two extreme human emotions - the feeling of betrayal, and that the worst has happened (on the one hand); and the feeling of joy at discovering that all is well after all (on the other). Like _Manon_, it's an opera that I hammer mercilessly, but it never grows stale; rather, it grows and grows in stature as one gets to know it better.

3. *Madama Butterfly*. Someone has to get this into the list and it may as well be me.

4. *I Capuletti e i Montecchi*. I see there's a problem here. This is the only Bellini opera I know at all well, and there may indeed be stronger contenders among the others. But this was the first _bel canto_ opera that ever really moved me and (so far) remains the only one. There's something about the Bellini soundscape that seems to stand out - a kind of gentle heart-stretching sweetness of melody that fits the drama perfectly. Anyway - my experience of it as an opera capable of transforming one's experience in the teeth of negative expectations merits it a place in my list.

5. *L'Orfeo*. In terms of purely personal preference I was tempted to put something by Rameau or Lully in here, but then decided to stand back and try to be more objective. This has to be here or hereabouts, merely because of its place in the history of opera: an opera that surely everyone ought to see, sooner or later.


----------



## emiellucifuge

1. La Fanciulla del West
2. Il Barbiere di Siviglia
3. Wozzek
4. Les Vespres Siciliennes
5. The Makropoulos Case


----------



## jhar26

-1 l'Orfeo - I support Alans nomination of this. Surely the first operatic masterpiece in history by the first giant of the genre deserves a place in the top 20.
-2 Die Zauberflote - Has more hit tunes than any other opera with the possible exception of Carmen.
-3 Aida
-4 Otello
-5 Elektra - as great as Salome


----------



## Almaviva

World Violist said:


> OK, if we're getting all defensive about stuff...
> 
> 1- I've already talked about it in post... um... 4, that's it.
> 2- It's been my favorite opera for a long time, and I've said before that I find it grossly underrated by any standard, let alone among Britten's works.
> 3- We all know what I think about this one.
> 4- Inspired L'amour de loin and is Messiaen's masterpiece. Contemplative to the extreme (which is, after all, one of the hallmarks of my list of favorites in general).
> 5- Bizarre, disturbing, reactionary, revolutionary, revelatory, etc. etc. It's really quite the trip if you get around to hearing (or better yet seeing) it.


While I'm sure that these are fine operas and congratulate you on your up-to-date taste, it's unlikely that they'll make it for the sheer fact that not many know them (and that includes me). I'm glad that you have nominated them, though, because it increases their position in my radar, and like I said before, so far all your recommendations are spot on and every time I've followed your lead, I was in for a treat.:tiphat: You have very good taste indeed, sir!


----------



## Almaviva

jflatter said:


> 1. Parsifal
> 2. Don Carlos
> 3. Les Contes d'Hoffman
> 4. Lohengrin
> 5. Il Barbiere di Siviglia
> 
> Apologies for any spelling as doing on my phone on long bus journey to work due to tube strike.


Wow. Thse are all operas that I'd have loved to have nominated myself. It goes to show that there is a sort of tortured feeling in picking the top ones, because it means we have to leave out others. For example, I can't believe we haven't placed Il Barbiere di Siviglia on the list yet! And I love Lohengrin so much (even more than Parsifal)! Don Carlo(s) is arguably the best Verdi and people keep forgeting about it (me included). Les Contes d'Hoffmman is a small miracle, so enjoyable!


----------



## Almaviva

Vic said:


> 1. Rusalka
> 2. Wozzek
> 3. Parsifal
> 4. Jenufa
> 5. Die Fledermaus (it is good entertainment)


While I profoundly love Die Fledermaus and believe that nobody should feel ashamed for nominating it (people usually balk at shallow entertainment, but like you said, this is delightful and skilfull entertainment and I don't care if it is shallow or not), we need to consider that it is operetta, not opera (although I think it is better than many _bona fide _operas). Fine with me, but a question for the staff - are we including operettas? I don't see why not, but other lists have not, so, it's a valid question.


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> Already I can feel my too limited range affecting my judgement. I'm conscious of missing out potentially more deserving operas merely because I haven't heard/seen them (yet), or know them well enough. Still, here goes:
> 
> 1. Manon
> 2. Ariodante
> 3. Madama Butterfly
> 4. I Capuletti e i Montecchi
> 5. L'Orfeo
> 
> Comments:
> 
> 1. *Manon*. The fact that somehow Manon escaped being considered for a place in the top ten flags up a possible weakness in our system, I suspect, but the best I can do to remedy that is to put it at the top of my list. Sir Thomas Beecham said he'd swap all the Brandenburg Concertos for Manon, and so would I (and still be willing to give extra). It represents Massenet at his tiptop best. It has unforgettable tunes, exquisitely interwoven, and yet they're handled with a restraint that often comes as a welcome relief to the kind of full-on emotional assault that we get in Puccini. It has a delicious _Frenchness_ about it, and it evokes deep emotions without tipping over into sentimentality. The best sign of its greatness, for me, is that it can stand up to the kind of repeated hammering that I've given it. I've seen it live, I've seen it on DVD, and I've listened to it on CD over and over again, and it gets better and better.
> 
> 2. *Ariodante*. I went along with the _Giulio Cesare_ votes, but actually this is my favourite Handel opera. It's a compelling story of mistaken betrayal, but its chief attraction for me is the way the opera pivots on two central moments, marked by what I think may be the two greatest _da capo_ arias ever written: 'Scherza infida', and 'Doppo notte'. I can't imagine how music could better depict the polarity of two extreme human emotions - the feeling of betrayal, and that the worst has happened (on the one hand); and the feeling of joy at discovering that all is well after all (on the other). Like _Manon_, it's an opera that I hammer mercilessly, but it never grows stale; rather, it grows and grows in stature as one gets to know it better.
> 
> 3. *Madama Butterfly*. Someone has to get this into the list and it may as well be me.
> 
> 4. *I Capuletti e i Montecchi*. I see there's a problem here. This is the only Bellini opera I know at all well, and there may indeed be stronger contenders among the others. But this was the first _bel canto_ opera that ever really moved me and (so far) remains the only one. There's something about the Bellini soundscape that seems to stand out - a kind of gentle heart-stretching sweetness of melody that fits the drama perfectly. Anyway - my experience of it as an opera capable of transforming one's experience in the teeth of negative expectations merits it a place in my list.
> 
> 5. *L'Orfeo*. In terms of purely personal preference I was tempted to put something by Rameau or Lully in here, but then decided to stand back and try to be more objective. This has to be here or hereabouts, merely because of its place in the history of opera: an opera that surely everyone ought to see, sooner or later.


Damn, I don't know Ariodante. Any good DVD recommendations?
Manon is delicious, isn't it?
L'Orfeo is such a good nomination! I hope it makes it high enough.
I Capuletti e i Montecchi - don't you think that as far as Bellini is considered, Norma gets the upper hand? [Almaviva tries to coopt someone else to support his choices:devil:]


----------



## Vic

Almaviva said:


> While I profoundly love Die Fledermaus and believe that nobody should feel ashamed for nominating it (people usually balk at shallow entertainment, but like you said, this is delightful and skilfull entertainment and I don't care if it is shallow or not), we need to consider that it is operetta, not opera (although I think it is better than many _bona fide _operas). Fine with me, but a question for the staff - are we including operettas? I don't see why not, but other lists have not, so, it's a valid question.


Ok that's a fair point about operettas. Maybe we should leave them out.

Adjusted:
1. Rusalka
2. Wozzek
3. Parsifal
4. Jenufa
5. Elektra


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## Chi_townPhilly

One of the serendipitous discoveries of this process is that there are competing reasons for entering the nominating process early or late. Typically, there's some incentive to nominate late, since one can see how the process is running and throw one's support behind choices that you're likely to put over-the-top. As opposed to that, there's a contrary incentive to enter your nomination early, as it puts your selections before the public-eye sooner. 

I like it...


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## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> While I profoundly love Die Fledermaus and believe that nobody should feel ashamed for nominating it (people usually balk at shallow entertainment, but like you said, this is delightful and skilfull entertainment and I don't care if it is shallow or not), we need to consider that it is operetta, not opera (although I think it is better than many _bona fide _operas). Fine with me, but a question for the staff - are we including operettas? I don't see why not, but other lists have not, so, it's a valid question.


Operettas can be included as far as I'm concerned. We include singspiels - no reason not to include operettas as well. I see operetta as a sub-genre of opera.


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## jhar26

For those that haven't done so already - don't forget to vote in our Giulio Cesare vs Les Troyens poll folks (see post #209).


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## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> For those that haven't done so already - don't forget to vote in our Giulio Cesare vs Les Troyens poll folks (see post #209).


Sure, sure, folks, don't forget, as long as you're planning to vote for Les Troyens, otherwise, do forget!:devil:


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## World Violist

Almaviva said:


> While I'm sure that these are fine operas and congratulate you on your up-to-date taste, it's unlikely that they'll make it for the sheer fact that not many know them (and that includes me). I'm glad that you have nominated them, though, because it increases their position in my radar, and like I said before, so far all your recommendations are spot on and every time I've followed your lead, I was in for a treat.:tiphat: You have very good taste indeed, sir!


Thank you! I think this thread is rather ideal for this sort of thing. I'm getting some ideas of future purchases from this myself, so why not put forth some of my own ideas?

I realize that few will make it, I just think they ought to.


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## Elgarian

Almaviva said:


> Damn, I don't know Ariodante. Any good DVD recommendations?


*Ariodante. * As far as I'm aware there are only two DVDs generally available:

















I'm the unfortunate owner of the first of these (on the left), and it would be in my list of the ten most tedious and uninspired DVD performances I've ever seen. Don't touch with a bargepole. The second one (an ENO production)may be more promising, but I know it only through a few youtube excerpts. So I'm in no position to recommend a DVD. Indeed, the _Ariodante_ of my imagination (inspired purely by the music) far outclasses anything I've seen.

However, I have seen a live performance of _Ariodante_, put together on a low budget with great enthusiasm, and it was memorable, to say the least. The truth is, though, that my conviction about the tremendous stature of the opera is based mainly on this _fantastic _recording with Lorraine Hunt Lieberson, which was responsible for one of my opera-listening-in-the-garden epiphanies:










See #36 in this thread.

I'm additionally swayed by the definitive and devastating studio recordings of 'Scherza infida' and 'Dopo notte' by Magdalena Kozena. Her live concert performances below are pretty amazing, but pale beside the studio recordings:

Kozena: 'Scherza Infida'

Kozena: 'Dopo notte' (pity about the synch problems)



> I Capuletti e i Montecchi - don't you think that as far as Bellini is considered, Norma gets the upper hand? [Almaviva tries to coopt someone else to support his choices:devil:]


You may be right, but I'm far more familiar with _Capuleti_, having seen a live performance, and having a recording that I love. _Norma_ on the other hand I've never seen, and have listened to only once without being captivated. This last isn't enough to form a judgement on the opera, so I can only vote according to what I know.

Incidentally, I came very close to putting up the Berlioz _Faust_ this time round - that was a great choice of yours.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Elgarian said:


> 2. *Ariodante*. I went along with the _Giulio Cesare_ votes, but actually this is my favourite Handel opera. It's a compelling story of mistaken betrayal, but its chief attraction for me is the way the opera pivots on two central moments, marked by what I think may be the two greatest _da capo_ arias ever written: *'Scherza infida', *and 'Doppo notte'. I can't imagine how music could better depict the polarity of two extreme human emotions - the feeling of betrayal, and that the worst has happened (on the one hand); and the feeling of joy at discovering that all is well after all (on the other). Like _Manon_, it's an opera that I hammer mercilessly, but it never grows stale; rather, it grows and grows in stature as one gets to know it better.


This is probably my favourite aria ever. I have it sung by David Daniels, Ian Bostridge, Andreas Scholl, Philippe Jaroussky, Joyce DiDonato, Magdalena Kozena, Sarah Connolly and even Rolando Villazon (verismo Handel, he he).

I have the same Ariodante DVD as Alan; I don't hate it as much as he does but still find it pretty _meh_. probably best on CD until someone comes up with a good production.


----------



## Contessa

Die Zauberflote - the music is so good it even redeems such a garbage libretto
ll Barbiere di Siviglia - for sheer pleasure not much to touch it
La Cenerentola - folks, a sin for this not to be in at this stage. As a whole, a better opera than the Barber.
Lucia di Lammermoor - how could you not love it?
Rigoletto - seems to be missing out here somehow also. Beats me why.


BTW, I felt somthing of a fasttrack highjacking in Julio Cesare reaching such a lofty position (its good and all, but not THAT good). Where are the supporters for his other works? For example, I rate Xerxes, Agrippina, and Alcina higher than Julio and am familiar with no more than 10 of Handel's operas. Surely Julio Cesare is not tat much better than his others that they dont get a sizeable mention at this stage?


----------



## mamascarlatti

Contessa said:


> BTW, I felt somthing of a fasttrack highjacking in Julio Cesare reaching such a lofty position (its good and all, but not THAT good). Where are the supporters for his other works? For example, I rate Xerxes, Agrippina, and Alcina higher than Julio and am familiar with no more than 10 of Handel's operas. Surely Julio Cesare is not tat much better than his others that they dont get a sizeable mention at this stage?


I suspect, as Alan mentioned in an earlier post, that many of us have been influenced by this:










That said, I still stand by my statement that Cesare is endlessly inventive, melodic, and varied; has a very high standard of composition and orchestration throughout; features interesting characters; and is based on a damn good story.


----------



## Elgarian

Contessa said:


> Where are the supporters for his other works?


Just to echo Natalie's sentiments - many of us are indeed influenced by that phenomenal Glyndebourne production, which demonstrates the potential of _Giulio Cesare_ (and the outstanding brilliance of Handel) to a degree that hasn't been offered the other operas. So the playing field isn't level, but we can't help that; and having set that aside, there are so many superb Handel operas that it's quite hard to pick out just one. I've entered _Ariodante_ into the list in my post above as my personal favourite, but I have about 20 of them, and I'd be really hard pressed to choose from amongst them. Yes, _Alcina_ by all means. And _Serse_. But you see the problem. The answer is to vote your favourite onto the list and give it an airing.


----------



## jflatter

Almaviva said:


> Wow. Thse are all operas that I'd have loved to have nominated myself. It goes to show that there is a sort of tortured feeling in picking the top ones, because it means we have to leave out others. For example, I can't believe we haven't placed Il Barbiere di Siviglia on the list yet! And I love Lohengrin so much (even more than Parsifal)! Don Carlo(s) is arguably the best Verdi and people keep forgeting about it (me included). Les Contes d'Hoffmman is a small miracle, so enjoyable!


To justify my reasons why these operas should be on the list are

Parsifal-genius last work from the greatest opera composer with some of most sublime music ever written.

Don Carlo or Carlos as Almaviva says possibly Verdi's best, although I have a Verdi guilty pleasure which we can discuss further down the list. I prefer the 1886 Modena version.

Lohengrin- Wagners most Italianate work which also opens the doors to his music drama heights. Act 2 in the opening scene between Ortrud and Telramund.

Il Barbiere- the funniest laugh aloud opera ever written. If you get the chance to see Florez play Almaviva then don't miss it!

Hoffman- an opera that contains comedy and dark tragedy in equal measures. The Antonia act is deeply moving. Also quite a demanding tenor role that is not always appreciated


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## Elgarian

mamascarlatti said:


> I have the same Ariodante DVD as Alan; I don't hate it as much as he does but still find it pretty _meh_. probably best on CD until someone comes up with a good production.


Maybe it's time for us to give the ENO production a try? (I've been hovering for ages, but am still reluctant to commit money to the experiment.)


----------



## mamascarlatti

jflatter said:


> To justify my reasons why these operas should be on the list are
> 
> Don Carlo or Carlos as Almaviva says possibly Verdi's best, although I have a Verdi guilty pleasure which we can discuss further down the list. I prefer the 1886 Modena version.
> 
> Lohengrin- Wagners most Italianate work which also opens the doors to his music drama heights. Act 2 in the opening scene between Ortrud and Telramund.
> 
> Il Barbiere- the funniest laugh aloud opera ever written. If you get the chance to see Florez play Almaviva then don't miss it!
> 
> Hoffman- an opera that contains comedy and dark tragedy in equal measures. The Antonia act is deeply moving. Also quite a demanding tenor role that is not always appreciated


Can't argue with any of that. Still to get into Parsifal but its frequent appearance on the lists indicates that I should not wait too long.

Can't wait to hear your Verdi guilty pleasure.

In the 80s I went 4 times to Jonathan Miller's ENO Barber and it got me rolling around with laughter every time.

The problem here is choosing.


----------



## sospiro

jflatter said:


> Don Carlo or Carlos as Almaviva says possibly Verdi's best, although I have a Verdi guilty pleasure which we can discuss further down the list. I prefer the 1886 Modena version.




I have this on order.


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## Almaviva

Contessa said:


> Die Zauberflote - the music is so good it even redeems such a garbage libretto
> ll Barbiere di Siviglia - for sheer pleasure not much to touch it
> La Cenerentola - folks, a sin for this not to be in at this stage. As a whole, a better opera than the Barber.
> Lucia di Lammermoor - how could you not love it?
> Rigoletto - seems to be missing out here somehow also. Beats me why.
> 
> BTW, I felt somthing of a fasttrack highjacking in Julio Cesare reaching such a lofty position (its good and all, but not THAT good). Where are the supporters for his other works? For example, I rate Xerxes, Agrippina, and Alcina higher than Julio and am familiar with no more than 10 of Handel's operas. Surely Julio Cesare is not tat much better than his others that they dont get a sizeable mention at this stage?


Alcina could perfectly be there instead of Giulio, I love Alcina and hear you. But like others have said to you, the Glyndebourne Giulio made us completely fall in love with this opera.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Alcina could perfectly be there instead of Giulio, I love Alcina and hear you. But like others have said to you, the Glyndebourne Giulio made us completely fall in love with this opera.


I had the Jacobs CD recording before I had the DVD and I loved that set so much that I feared the DVD might be disappointing in comparison. That didn't happen of course, but I already rated Giulio Cesare a masterpiece before I ever saw the DVD.


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## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> I had the Jacobs CD recording before I had the DVD and I loved that set so much that I feared the DVD might be disappointing in comparison. That didn't happen of course, but I already rated Giulio Cesare a masterpiece before I ever saw the DVD.


Sure, I don't doubt it. The Glyndebourne DVD was my first contact with Giulio Cesare, but you can't get to such an outstanding result if the material is poor, no matter how good you are at staging and singing. Of course the Glyndebourne team did a superb job, but it was possible because the potential was there in Handel's masterpiece.


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## Contessa

Almaviva said:


> Alcina could perfectly be there instead of Giulio, I love Alcina and hear you. But like others have said to you, the Glyndebourne Giulio made us completely fall in love with this opera.


You've convinced me! Am not familiar with that recording - its now on my to-buy list and I hope to be similarly won over.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

jhar26 said:


> TOP 10
> 
> After some consideration we've decided to keep our top five as it was since it spares us another round of voting with the same operas. The five winners from the vote we've just completed fill out our top 10.
> 
> So - this means.....
> 
> *-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
> *-2 Tristan und Isolde*
> *-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
> 
> *-4 Giulio Cesare*
> *-4 Les Troyens*
> 
> *-6 Don Giovanni*
> *-7 La Traviata*
> *-8 La Boheme*
> *-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
> *10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
> 
> Before we move on to positions 11 to 20 we still need to settle positions four and five since they ended up in a perfect draw. So please tell us which opera you want as our number four - Giulio Cesare or Les Troyens. I will not vote myself unless there is another draw. You have two days to vote.


This big thread has become a bit hard to follow. I didn't vote/read this thread as I was busy doing other things. But I shall vote for _Giulio Cesare in Egitto_ to nail its place in the top five, if not too late.


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## Webernite

jhar26 said:


> For those that haven't done so already - don't forget to vote in our Giulio Cesare vs Les Troyens poll folks (see post #209).


Giulio Cesare, of course!


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## mamascarlatti

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> This big thread has become a bit hard to follow. I didn't vote/read this thread as I was busy doing other things. But I shall vote for _Giulio Cesare in Egitto_ to nail its place in the top five, if not too late.


Make sure you're in to play for the next round. There are some early opera nominations that need your support.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Contessa said:


> Die Zauberflote - the music is so good it even redeems such a garbage libretto


Yeah- that's a sentiment that comes close to the way I feel about _Il Trovatore_, an opera that's gotten _no love_ whatsoever. Still, Mozart is Mozart- Verdi is Verdi- I understand... and even agree, to an extent---


Contessa said:


> ll Barbiere di Siviglia - for sheer pleasure not much to touch it


didn't miss making my list by much. I'm not disappointed by its late surge.


Contessa said:


> Rigoletto - seems to be missing out here somehow also. Beats me why.


we can take this one off the "all-jilted" team.

Current nominees for the "all-no-love" team so far are... 
_Il Trovatore_, _Falstaff_, _Flying Dutchman_, the _Cav/Pag_ duo, and _Turandot_.

I just noticed that Giulio & Troyens are tied _again_.


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## mamascarlatti

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Yeah- that's a sentiment that comes close to the way I feel about _Il Trovatore_, an opera that's gotten _no love_ whatsoever.


The trouble with Trovatore for me is that the plot is just too silly: "Whoops, wrong baby". To prove my point I refer you to the incomparable Sieglinde again.


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## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> The trouble with Trovatore for me is that the plot is just too silly: "Whoops, wrong baby". To prove my point I refer you to the incomparable Sieglinde again.


Il Trovatore is a good opera, but it suffered the misfortune of having been written almost simultaneously with two much superior ones. So when we think of the trio Rig-Trov-Trav, Il Trovatore necessarily gets less attention.

Since folks here are lamenting the ones that haven't been nominated yet (which is a form of jumping ahead to the next chunk of 21-30) I'd like to remember the outstanding music in The Abduction from the Serail, which, in spite of a weak plot, has almost all arias and ensembles holding steadly an extremely high level of quality. It's hard to find any down points in Serail, it is pretty much evenly good.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> Since folks here are lamenting the ones that haven't been nominated yet (which is a form of jumping ahead to the next chunk of 21-30) I'd like to remember the outstanding music in The Abduction from the Serail, which, in spite of a weak plot, has almost all arias and ensembles holding steadly an extremely high level of quality. It's hard to find any down points in Serail, it is pretty much evenly good.












In this production the plot does not seem weak. The fine German actor Matthias Habish makes the non-singing role of Pasha Selim the moral cornerstone of the story. It's wonderful.


----------



## sospiro

I'm sorry to be such a pain but with being away I've lost track a bit. Please could you tell me what I need to vote on now?


----------



## mamascarlatti

sospiro said:


> I'm sorry to be such a pain but with being away I've lost track a bit. Please could you tell me what I need to vote on now?


1. Vote for either Giulio Cesare or Les Troyens for spot N.4 on the top 10

2. Nominate 5 more operas for slots 11-20


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Il Trovatore is a good opera, but it suffered the misfortune of having been written almost simultaneously with two much superior ones. So when we think of the trio Rig-Trov-Trav, Il Trovatore necessarily gets less attention.


When it comes to great tunes it's up there with his best though. Besides the absurd plot Il Trovatore's biggest problem is that it's a Verdi opera. If it had been one from another composer with no other masterpieces to his credit it would probably end up much higher in our top 100. But when people want to nominate a Verdi opera the first ones that come to their minds are La Traviata, Otello, Aida, Don Carlos and Rigoletto. Il Trovatore's fiercest competition are Verdi's other masterpieces.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> When it comes to great tunes it's up there with his best though. Besides the absurd plot Il Trovatore's biggest problem is that it's a Verdi opera. If it had been one from another composer with no other masterpieces to his credit it would probably end up much higher in our top 100. But when people want to nominate a Verdi opera the first ones that come to their minds are La Traviata, Otello, Aida, Don Carlos and Rigoletto. Il Trovatore's fiercest competition are Verdi's other masterpieces.


Yep. Macbeth is another very good one that gets neglected for the same reason.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> In this production the plot does not seem weak. The fine German actor Matthias Habish makes the non-singing role of Pasha Selim the moral cornerstone of the story. It's wonderful.


Good to know, thanks, Natalie.


----------



## Elgarian

Are we going to regard _Il Trittico_ as 3 distinct operas, or just one?


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Almaviva said:


> Yep. Macbeth is another very good one that gets neglected for the same reason.


I think 'Macbeth' gets inordinate attention due to being a Verdi opera.:devil:


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> Are we going to regard _Il Trittico_ as 3 distinct operas, or just one?


Just one is best I think. After all, that's how Puccini would want it.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Just one is best I think. After all, that's how Puccini would want it.


Well, I think Puccini wanted them all performed in the same evening but has never suggested that they were one opera, correct me if I'm wrong. I feel that they are so radically different... How can we consider a zanny comedy like Gianni Schicchi in the same token as a gloomy tragedy like Suor Angelica?

The Ring is different, it's the same cycle, the same story, while the three components of Il Trittico are completely unrelated operas; the only way they are related is by being performed the same evening.

Similarly, Pagliacci and Cavaleria Rusticana often get performed the same evening and get released together in one DVD and although they are much closer thematically (both verismo operas - and Leoncavallo especifically wanted to write Pagiacci after he saw Cavaleria Rusticana, to mimick its style) nobody would consider them to be the same opera (OK, it doesn't help that they were written by different composers, but it is still a valid analogy).

By the way, I have a blu-ray with Gianni Schicchi only, without the other two. And finally, these three one-act operas have running times of about one hour each, and this is longer than some other operas that also get considered individually (such as Le Rossignol, L'enfant et les sortileges, and Dido and Aeneas). L'enfant et les Sortileges gets often performed together with L'Heure Espagnole, and released together on DVD as well, and again, people think of these two as separate operas.

So, for me, the operas included in the Il Trittico set are three different operas.

Maybe the strongest argument is that they deserve different places in the ranking. Suor Angelica in my opinion is much less good than Il Tabarro and Gianni Schicchi. So if we were to consider them in block, Suor Angelica might end up overrated while the other two would be underrated. Gianni Schicchi in particular is a gem, it's one darn good opera buffa, tight, concise, funny, full of interesting characters that even with the limited running time do get reasonably developed, not to forget the spectacular _Oh mio babbino caro. _So in my personal rankings it would be way above the other components of Il Trittico even though I do like Il Tabarro a lot.


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## jhar26

Ok, I can accept those arguments, so we'll consider them as three different operas.


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## sospiro

mamascarlatti said:


> 1. Vote for either Giulio Cesare or Les Troyens for spot N.4 on the top 10
> 
> 2. Nominate 5 more operas for slots 11-20


Don't know either but from the impassioned support on here I nominate Giulio Cesare for the No 4 spot

Next choice

1. Simon Boccanegra
2. Rigoletto
3. Macbeth
4. Il barbiere di Siviglia
5. Hamlet


----------



## jhar26

sospiro said:


> Don't know either but from the impassioned support on here I nominate Giulio Cesare for the No 4 spot
> 
> Next choice
> 
> 1. Lucia di Lammermoor
> 2. Macbeth
> 3. Il barbiere di Siviglia
> 4. Hamlet
> 5. Andrea Chenier


No Simon Boccanegra??????


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## sospiro

jhar26 said:


> No Simon Boccanegra??????


:lol:

I didn't think I was allowed to nominate the same ones again. If I can, can I change my list?


----------



## jhar26

sospiro said:


> :lol:
> 
> I didn't think I was allowed to nominate the same ones again. If I can, can I change my list?


Sure. You can keep nominating the same operas until they get a ranking.


----------



## Almaviva

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I think 'Macbeth' gets inordinate attention due to being a Verdi opera.:devil:


From your post: "If the name "Verdi" wasn't attached to these marginal entities, would anyone pay them any mind?!"

Hey, Macbeth has prime source material - a Shakespeare play - with an interesting plot, a rather good libretto by Piave, and I like the music a lot. Yes, I think I'd pay attention to it even if someone else had composed it.

Look at what Il Maestro himself thought of his Macbeth, in a letter he wrote to his former father-in-law: "I have long intended to dedicate an opera to you, who have been father, benefactor, and friend to me. It was a duty I should have fulfilled sooner if imperious circumstances had not prevented me. Now, I send you _Macbeth_ *which I prize above all my other operas*, and therefore deem worthier to present to you"

In Denis Forman's ranking Ernani, Attila, La Forza del Destino, I Lombardi, and The Sicilian Vespers, and even Falstaff all get Bs (so it's not like he automatically ranks any Verdi opera highly - not to forget that other Verdi operas don't even make his classification that includes 80 operas), while Macbeth gets an A, in the good company of Aida, Ballo, Simon, Luisa Miller, Rigoletto, Otello, and Il Trovatore. Don Carlo and La Traviata both get A+.

So, for Forman, Macbeth is right behind the two outstanding ones (Don Carlo and Trav), above the middle ones, and above all the others that didn't make it.

This is my personal ranking - confessedly it makes little sense since I do recognize that Don Carlo should be higher and also recognize that Otello is musically superior to Rigoletto, but what can I say, it's a matter of personal preference, I'm ranking them exclusively on the bases of how much I like them:

1. La Traviata
2. Rigoletto
3. Otello
4. Aida
*5. Macbeth*
6. Don Carlos
7. Luisa Miller
8. Simon Boccanegra
9. Il Trovatore
10. Falstaff
11. La Forza del Destino
12. Un ballo in maschera
13. Nabucco
14. I Lombardi

I don't know the other Verdi operas. I plan to get to them soon.


----------



## jhar26

And Annie (sospiro) will conclude this round of voting. I will then start counting the votes after which I will post the results.  So no more voting please (except for Annie).


----------



## mamascarlatti

sospiro said:


> Don't know either but from the impassioned support on here I nominate Giulio Cesare for the No 4 spot
> 
> Next choice
> 
> 1. Lucia di Lammermoor
> 2. Macbeth
> 3. Il barbiere di Siviglia
> 4. Hamlet
> 5. Andrea Chenier


You are allowed to put Simon Boccanegra in again as it failed to make the top 10.

Edit: Damn, sorry, didn't see what had gone before when I posted this. How do you delete posts anyway? I can only seem to edit them.


----------



## jhar26

Giulio Cesare has won it's contest with Les Troyens by just ONE vote, so that one will be our number four and Les Troyens our number five. So, THIS is our definitive top 10.

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-5 Les Troyens*
*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*


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## sospiro

jhar26 said:


> Sure. You can keep nominating the same operas until they get a ranking.


Have edited my post with my new nominations.


----------



## sospiro

mamascarlatti said:


> You are allowed to put Simon Boccanegra in again as it failed to make the top 10.
> 
> Edit: Damn, sorry, didn't see what had gone before when I posted this. How do you delete posts anyway? I can only seem to edit them.


No don't delete it - I might eventually learn the rules.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Giulio Cesare has won it's contest with Les Troyens by just ONE vote


Bummer... 
Oh well, lose some, win some; number 5 is still pretty good for my beloved _Les Troyens._

I'm excited about the next results... can't wait!


----------



## mamascarlatti

jhar26 said:


> Giulio Cesare has won it's contest with Les Troyens by just ONE vote, so that one will be our number four and Les Troyens our number five. So, THIS is our definitive top 10.
> 
> *-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
> *-2 Tristan und Isolde*
> *-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
> *-4 Giulio Cesare*
> *-5 Les Troyens*
> *-6 Don Giovanni*
> *-7 La Traviata*
> *-8 La Boheme*
> *-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
> *10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*


Interesting how our democratic and slightly chaotic list ended up sharing six operas with the "greatest opera" list that Alma posted in another thread, with two others of ours in their 11-20 list!

The only dark horses were Giulio and Troyens.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> Interesting how our democratic and slightly chaotic list ended up sharing six operas with the "greatest opera" list that Alma posted in another thread, with two others of ours in their 11-20 list!
> 
> The only dark horses were Giulio and Troyens.


They are dark but magnificent horses.

And the list had 8 out of 10 in common with my personal list of top ten favorites, so, I'm pretty happy with the end result. I don't think the next round will match my personal preferences as much, though.


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## jhar26

*NOMINATION ROUND RESULTS*

First I mention the number of votes followed by the number of points which count as tiebreakers where necessary.  The first six go through to the next round that will decide numbers 11 to 20.

Die Zauberflote....5/20
Parsifal...5/20
Otello...4/13
Il Barbiere di Siviglia...4/11
Wozzeck...3/11
Lucia di Lammermoor...3/8

Elektra...3/5 didn't make it but is automatically qualified for the round that will decide positions twenty to thirty because it got the same number of votes (but not points) as Wozzeck and Lucia.

All other operas you mentionned got only one or two votes and have to go for now....


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## jhar26

*VOTING FOR POSITIONS 11 to 20*

These are the operas that qualified for this round of voting.....

Il Barbiere di Siviglia
Carmen
Cosi fan Tutte
Lucia di Lammermoor
Otello
Parsifal
Salome
Tosca
Wozzeck
Die Zauberflote

....please post your *TOP FIVE* choices of these operas in your order of preference.


----------



## Webernite

1. Parsifal
2. Die Zauberflote
3. Salome
4. Carmen
5. Wozzeck


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## mamascarlatti

1. Tosca
2. Carmen
3. Otello
4. Cosi fan Tutte
5. Il Barbiere di Siviglia


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## sospiro

1. Carmen
2. Tosca
3. Lucia di Lammermoor
4. Il barbiere di Siviglia
5. Die Zauberflöte


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## jhar26

-1 Cosi fan Tutte
-2 Die Zauberflote
-3 Carmen
-4 Otello
-5 Salome


----------



## emiellucifuge

1. Il Barbiere di Siviglia
2. Salome
3. Wozzek
4. Otello
5. Parsifal


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Wozzeck
2. Parsifal
3. Die Zauberflöte
4. Carmen
5. Otello


----------



## World Violist

1. Parsifal
2. Wozzeck
3. Salome
4. Zauberflote
5. Cosi


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## jflatter

1. Parsifal
2. Salome
3. Il Barbiere
4. Otello
5. Tosca


----------



## Elgarian

1. Cosi Fan Tutte
2. Tosca
3. Die Zauberflote
4. Parsifal
5. Carmen

We're getting close to situations where we may not all be familiar with five out of the total batch of operas (eg it was a close run thing for me this time). Even now, for instance, I've voted for Carmen not because I like it, but because I know it quite well, and because other people rate it, so I assume it's better than I can determine for myself. So the question arises: can we vote for LESS than 5? (That seems better to me than just shoving in a dud for the sake of completion.)

[I use the word dud for the sake of making a point; not because I actually think Carmen is a dud.]


----------



## Elgarian

On the _Il Trittico_ question, I agree with Alma that they're best treated separately. However I suspect he was drunk when he said it, since he also said this ....



> Maybe the strongest argument is that they deserve different places in the ranking. Suor Angelica in my opinion is much less good than Il Tabarro and Gianni Schicchi.


My dear chap, you force my hand. EITHER you must read my five volume treatise (1000 pages per volume and _very_ small print) on 'Why _Suor Angelica_ is one of Puccini's greatest works of art'; OR you must meet me at dawn and we'll settle the matter with thermonuclear feather-dusters at 30 paces.

[PS. I have a Black Belt in thermonuclear feather-duster combat.]


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Elgarian said:


> I've voted for Carmen not because I think it's good, but because I know it quite well, and because it's popular.


You don't think _Carmen_ is *good*?? 

As for the larger issue of voting for operas where we might not be familiar with the full extent of the opera, I think I'll be guided by first what segments I _do_ know of the opera, then my impressions of reputation, general balance; while taking care not to leave off quality works whose absence would (in my judgement) be fundamentally embarrassing.

So then- my five choices are-

1. *Carmen* dammit 
2. Parsifal
3. Die Zauberflöte
4. Tosca
5. Barber of Seville


----------



## World Violist

Elgarian said:


> OR you must meet me at dawn and we'll settle the matter with thermonuclear feather-dusters at 30 paces.


How much are tickets?


----------



## Elgarian

Chi_townPhilly said:


> You don't think _Carmen_ is *good*??


Well challenged, and rightly so. I've edited my post accordingly.


----------



## Contessa

1 Cosi
2 Zauber
3 Barbiere
4 Otello
5 Lucia


----------



## Elgarian

World Violist said:


> How much are tickets?


Well, if he takes the thermonuclear warfare option, tickets aren't worth buying for that because it'll all be over so quickly, and in any case the audience will be destroyed along with the combatants. No, the tickets that will _really_ be in demand are those for watching him trying to read the 5-volume treatise. The print is so small he needs to read it with an electron microscope.


----------



## Elgarian

Chi_townPhilly said:


> 1. *Carmen* dammit


Interesting choice, CTP. They tell me it's really good ....


----------



## Almaviva

1. Otello
2. Lucia di Lammermoor
3. Il Barbiere di Siviglia
4. Carmen
5. Cosi fan Tutte


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> My dear chap, you force my hand. EITHER you must read my five volume treatise (1000 pages per volume and _very_ small print) on 'Why _Suor Angelica_ is one of Puccini's greatest works of art'; OR you must meet me at dawn and we'll settle the matter with thermonuclear feather-dusters at 30 paces.
> 
> [PS. I have a Black Belt in thermonuclear feather-duster combat.]


Thermonuclear feather-dusters?
Huh... can I propose a change in weaponry? I'm quite good with rotten eggs and rotten tomatoes.


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> So the question arises: can we vote for LESS than 5? (That seems better to me than just shoving in a dud for the sake of completion.)


I suppose you could, but it's not a good idea because using our points system I start with your lowest ranked opera and give it one point. The one ranked above it two, and so on. If you don't post a complete top five your number one won't get five points.


----------



## mamascarlatti

While we are waiting for the second round voting to finish, how about reading this article by Antonio Pappano about Italy's top ten operas in case you missed it when it was first published.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> While we are waiting for the second round voting to finish, how about reading this article by Antonio Pappano about Italy's top ten operas in case you missed it when it was first published.


Viva Italia!
Thanks for posting this, I'm proud of my Italian origin and my dual citizenship (I do have an Italian passport).

I'm so happy with what he said about some of my favorites;La Traviata, Otello, Norma, Il Barbiere di Siviglia...

However I'm turned off by what he said about Suor Angelica. I don't like it! I don't! I wish it disappeared in smoke! Damn Puccini, why did you ever write Suor Angelica???

Anyway, nasty Suor Angelica apart, I think this calls for this YouTube clip:


----------



## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> Viva Italia!
> I'm so happy with what he said about some of my favorites;La Traviata, Otello, Norma, Il Barbiere di Siviglia...


I'm happy with his endorsement of La Fanciulla del West, a recent love of mine.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> I'm happy with his endorsement of La Fanciulla del West, a recent love of mine.


Meh. It's OK.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> Meh. It's OK.


First Alan, then you. ARE YOU GUYS DEAF?

Seriously, it's got everything, atmosphere, glorious luscious melody, a feisty heart-of-gold heroine, a sexy menacing baritone, a sexy badass tenor, cheating at poker and a happy ending. I love it.


----------



## sospiro

Almaviva said:


> Viva Italia! ... I think this calls for this YouTube clip:


I have that on my phone & sing along whenever Ferrari win!



_*Forza Ferrari!*_


----------



## jhar26

mamascarlatti said:


> Seriously, it's got everything, atmosphere, glorious luscious melody, a feisty heart-of-gold heroine, a sexy menacing baritone, a sexy badass tenor, cheating at poker and a happy ending. I love it.


Same here. For me La Fanciulla del West is MUCH better than La Rondine.


----------



## Elgarian

mamascarlatti said:


> First Alan, then you. ARE YOU GUYS DEAF?


It's a question I often ask myself!

Aren't these variations intriguing? I mean, seriously and joking aside - what can it be that makes the difference for each of us? We have Alma's dismissal of Suor Angelica stacked against my regard for it as a work of exquisitely balanced genius. La Fanciulla is regarded by Natalie and Gaston as packed with melody, atmosphere and all the rest, while Alma says 'meh', and I struggle to maintain an interest in the proceedings, longing to hear a decent tune, and wishing I were listening to La Rondine instead.

We're all Puccini fans - we'd all be keen to give him the benefit of the doubt, were any needed, and yet we still have these quite strong divergences of opinion within the canon.

Incidentally (and not just to rattle Alma), I think Pappano pinpoints one of the key strengths of Suor Angelica. That balance between sentimentality on the one hand and reality on the other is an extremely difficult line to hold (the PreRaphaelites are masters of it, in painting), and Puccini gets it just right I think. What Pappano doesn't mention (but which I think is equally powerful) is that at no stage during the finale can we be sure whether what we're seeing and hearing is supposed to have some kind of objective reality, or whether it's a delusion caused by the process of dying. We can read it either way (the exquisite music doesn't resolve the issue for us), and in that sense it highlights one of the great mysteries of the human condition. When I listen to Suor Angelica I'm not just deeply moved - I'm deeply disturbed, for days afterwards.


----------



## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> I suppose you could, but it's not a good idea because using our points system I start with your lowest ranked opera and give it one point. The one ranked above it two, and so on. If you don't post a complete top five your number one won't get five points.


Alternatively, you could count downwards, starting with 5 points for our 1st choice, 4 to our second, etc. The result would be just the same when there are 5 in the list, but wouldn't penalise votes in shorter lists. I'm still trying to figure out if there's a downside to doing that ....

Maybe CTP's right - maybe it's best to 'pad' the list up to 5 on our knowledge of the reputation of a work, where our personal knowledge is lacking.


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> Alternatively, you could count downwards, starting with 5 points for our 1st choice, 4 to our second, etc. The result would be just the same when there are 5 in the list, but wouldn't penalise votes in shorter lists. I'm still trying to figure out if there's a downside to doing that ....


The logic behind it is...

1) Folks who are able to list five operas have either a greater knowledge of the genre OR have made the effort to check out excerpts (on youtube and such) of the operas they don't know to get at least an idea of what they sound like and thus their opinion should weigh more heavily.

2) It prevents tactical voting. If we give five points to a number one no matter how many operas a person lists it's easy to help the cause of your faves in an unfair manner. I could for example say that I only know Cosi fan Tutte and only list that one. It would enable me to give that opera five points without me having to give any points to the competition.


----------



## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> The logic behind it is...
> 
> 1) Folks who are able to list five operas have either a greater knowledge of the genre OR have made the effort to check out excerpts (on youtube and such) of the operas they don't know to get at least an idea of what they sound like and thus their opinion should weigh more heavily.
> 
> 2) It prevents tactical voting. If we give five points to a number one no matter how many operas a person lists it's easy to help the cause of your faves in an unfair manner. I could for example say that I only know Cosi fan Tutte and only list that one. It would enable me to give that opera five points without me having to give any points to the competition.


You're absolutely right! This is the difference between actually thinking something through (which _you've_ done) and idly wondering about it (which is _me_)!

Onward and upward!


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> The logic behind it is...
> 
> 1) Folks who are able to list five operas have either a greater knowledge of the genre OR have made the effort to check out excerpts (on youtube and such) of the operas they don't know to get at least an idea of what they sound like and thus their opinion should weigh more heavily.
> 
> 2) It prevents tactical voting. If we give five points to a number one no matter how many operas a person lists it's easy to help the cause of your faves in an unfair manner. I could for example say that I only know Cosi fan Tutte and only list that one. It would enable me to give that opera five points without me having to give any points to the competition.


3) Then you get five newt tails and...


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> It's a question I often ask myself!
> 
> Incidentally (and not just to rattle Alma), I think Pappano pinpoints one of the key strengths of Suor Angelica. That balance between sentimentality on the one hand and reality on the other is an extremely difficult line to hold (the PreRaphaelites are masters of it, in painting), and Puccini gets it just right I think. What Pappano doesn't mention (but which I think is equally powerful) is that at no stage during the finale can we be sure whether what we're seeing and hearing is supposed to have some kind of objective reality, or whether it's a delusion caused by the process of dying. We can read it either way (the exquisite music doesn't resolve the issue for us), and in that sense it highlights one of the great mysteries of the human condition. When I listen to Suor Angelica I'm not just deeply moved - I'm deeply disturbed, for days afterwards.


OK, I see that short of thermonuclear feather-dusters, I'll have to fight back with the words of another critic, in this case Sir Denis Forman:

"_Angelica _moves forward in three gears: sweet nothings in the nunnery; emotional exchanges between aunt and niece; the pantomime ending. One would have thought that Puccini would have seen that a dead mother, a ressurrected child and a grand march led by the Virgin Mary was pushing it, and indeed even in Italy where both Puccini and the Virgin Mary are greatly revered, there have been sniggers in the house when this toytown masquerade steps out. ... But the thing that really turns you off _Angelica _is the saccharine patches in the score. Puccini tends towards pretty sticky stuff when he writes about distressed young things, about mother love or about the Virgin Mary. All three at once prove absolutely lethal, and _Angelica _leaves an aftertaste as cloying as a milk-chocolate lollipop."

So, there!


----------



## Elgarian

Almaviva said:


> OK, I see that short of thermonuclear feather-dusters, I'll have to fight back with the words of another critic, in this case Sir Denis Forman:
> 
> "_Angelica _moves forward in three gears: sweet nothings in the nunnery; emotional exchanges between aunt and niece; the pantomime ending. One would have thought that Puccini would have seen that a dead mother, a ressurrected child and a grand march led by the Virgin Mary was pushing it, and indeed even in Italy where both Puccini and the Virgin Mary are greatly revered, there have been sniggers in the house when this toytown masquerade steps out. ... But the thing that really turns you off _Angelica _is the saccharine patches in the score. Puccini tends towards pretty sticky stuff when he writes about distressed young things, about mother love or about the Virgin Mary. All three at once prove absolutely lethal, and _Angelica _leaves an aftertaste as cloying as a milk-chocolate lollipop."
> 
> So, there!


Well yes, but ... the point is that one can write that sort of thing about _any_ opera one dislikes. Those phrases like 'toytown masquerade', 'absolutely lethal', and 'cloying as a milk-chocolate lollipop' merely tell us that the critic doesn't 'get' it. In this case Sir Denis can't get past what he sees as the pantomine aspects of _Angelica_ any more than I can get past what I see as the pantomime aspects of _La Ceneterola_. We're both demonstrably poor judges of the works in question, because negative criticism of that sort is made from a position of weakness rather than strength of understanding. (I say this not because I want to knock Sir Denis Forman, but because I recognise the same impulse in myself when I have the kind of negative experience he's describing, and see it as something to be held in check, if I can.)

It's amusing to _write_ like that of course, and to read it (no one could deny that he knows how to write), but as an accurate judgement of _Suor Angelica_ I think it's shockingly insensitive. I'm not saying we should never write adverse criticism - on the contrary. But one has to bear in mind how ill-advised this kind of vituperative criticism can seem in hindsight, when a change of perception brings about a clearer view.


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> Well yes, but ... the point is that one can write that sort of thing about _any_ opera one dislikes. Those phrases like 'toytown masquerade', 'absolutely lethal', and 'cloying as a milk-chocolate lollipop' merely tell us that the critic doesn't 'get' it. In this case Sir Denis can't get past what he sees as the pantomine aspects of _Angelica_ any more than I can get past what I see as the pantomime aspects of _La Ceneterola_. We're both demonstrably poor judges of the works in question, because negative criticism of that sort is made from a position of weakness rather than strength of understanding. (I say this not because I want to knock Sir Denis Forman, but because I recognise the same impulse in myself when I have the kind of negative experience he's describing, and see it as something to be held in check, if I can.)
> 
> It's amusing to _write_ like that of course, and to read it (no one could deny that he knows how to write), but as an accurate judgement of _Suor Angelica_ I think it's shockingly insensitive. I'm not saying we should never write adverse criticism - on the contrary. But one has to bear in mind how ill-advised this kind of vituperative criticism can seem in hindsight, when a change of perception brings about a clearer view.


I know, I know, but his review made me laugh out loud, and I posted it in a tongue-in-cheek manner, thus the green laughing face.

Still, Suor Angelica is not my cup of tea. Maybe I'm being insensitive, who knows? But I do have the capacity to be touched by other operas. There is something in Suor Angelica that rubs me the wrong way. I've never liked it, much before I read Sir Denis Forman's review. When I'm listening to or watching Il Trittico, I tend to sigh and say to myself 'oh dear' while rolling my eyes when I get to Suor Angelica, then I fast forward to the good stuff that comes next.


----------



## jhar26

I'm somewhere in the middle when it comes to Suor Angelica. I neither dislike it as much as Almaviva or love it as much as Alan. I do believe however that Gianni Schicchi is the masterpiece of the Il Trittico operas.


----------



## Elgarian

Almaviva said:


> Maybe I'm being insensitive, who knows?


Oh no I don't think that for a moment. I think Forman's scathing criticisms are insensitive, because he's making himself seem clever and witty, while failing to understand key elements of the opera. But what _you're_ registering here is plain dislike, and I hear you and understand. More than any opera I know, _Angelica_ treads a dangerous line, hovering close to the edge of mawkishness, and for some people it goes _too_ close and presses all their I-hate-gooey-stuff buttons. I think it's really hard under those conditions to distinguish genuine shortcomings in the work from mere personal hangups and preferences.

My claim is not that everyone should _like_ it, but that whether one likes it or hates it, it should be recognised as dealing with (both dramatically and musically) some serious and profound human issues concerning faith, victimhood, punishment, forgiveness, and our uncertainty about what's real and what's delusion at the deepest level. That ought to make us pause before poking fun at it.


----------



## emiellucifuge

La Fanciulla del West is Puccini's best!


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> Oh no I don't think that for a moment. I think Forman's scathing criticisms are insensitive, because he's making himself seem clever and witty, while failing to understand key elements of the opera. But what _you're_ registering here is plain dislike, and I hear you and understand. More than any opera I know, _Angelica_ treads a dangerous line, hovering close to the edge of mawkishness, and for some people it goes _too_ close and presses all their I-hate-gooey-stuff buttons. I think it's really hard under those conditions to distinguish genuine shortcomings in the work from mere personal hangups and preferences.
> 
> My claim is not that everyone should _like_ it, but that whether one likes it or hates it, it should be recognised as dealing with (both dramatically and musically) some serious and profound human issues concerning faith, victimhood, punishment, forgiveness, and our uncertainty about what's real and what's delusion at the deepest level. That ought to make us pause before poking fun at it.


Fair enough!:tiphat:


----------



## Almaviva

emiellucifuge said:


> La Fanciulla del West is Puccini's best!


I respectfully disagree. I think _La Bohème _is Puccini's best. I don't dislike _Fanciulla. _It's got pretty modern orchestration and a couple of pretty good numbers (particularly, Ramerrez's lament _Ch'ella mi creda libero e lontano, _and the final ensemble). Well acted, it goes down pretty well like an old Western (in this, Pappano is right on target, I've always felt that _Fanciulla _goes down more like a movie than like an opera), despite its rather farfetched plot (huh... so the rough miners just get all weepy and forgive the big bad criminal and let them go - but then, many other operas have farfetched plots, I can't fault it for this). But I said I find it just "OK" because it doesn't carry as much punch and isn't as enchanting as Puccini's other masterpieces. I do enjoy it, I just am not crazy about it.


----------



## emiellucifuge

I do not disagree with you about the plot. What i like about Fanciulla is its consistency, the opera feels like it is one piece with motives being developed throughout - rather than having some very good numbers. Also the orchestration here is absolutely incredible and creates such a fantastic sound world.

Also Puccini seems to go slightly farther in using dissonance for expressive purposes.


----------



## Elgarian

emiellucifuge said:


> What i like about Fanciulla is its consistency, the opera feels like it is one piece with motives being developed throughout - rather than having some very good numbers.


Undeniably so ... but oh, oh, I _miss_ the 'very good numbers'!


----------



## emiellucifuge

Perhaps then we can agree that 'parts' of La Boheme are better?


----------



## jhar26

emiellucifuge said:


> I do not disagree with you about the plot. What i like about Fanciulla is its consistency, the opera feels like it is one piece with motives being developed throughout - rather than having some very good numbers. Also the orchestration here is absolutely incredible and creates such a fantastic sound world.


I won't go so far as to call it Puccini's best, but I like it very much and you make some very good points.


----------



## Almaviva

emiellucifuge said:


> I do not disagree with you about the plot. What i like about Fanciulla is its consistency, the opera feels like it is one piece with motives being developed throughout - rather than having some very good numbers. Also the orchestration here is absolutely incredible and creates such a fantastic sound world.
> 
> Also Puccini seems to go slightly farther in using dissonance for expressive purposes.


Sure, I agree, that's what I meant when I said "modern orchestration."

_Fanciulla_'s best strenght resides in its orchestration, and it is good enough for me to like and enjoy the opera. It's just that other elements that are important to me as well in constructing my personal ranking of my favorite operas seem to be missing... or at least, seem to be missing as far as a Puccini opera is concerned. Like Alan said above, we do miss the great numbers... While I can perfectly enjoy an opera that doesn't have numbers like so many of the more recent ones, I guess I come to expect them in a composer like Puccini, and when they're not there, it feels odd.

Maybe the problem is the name Puccini attached to it. I guess if _Fanciulla_ had been composed by someone else, I'd have said, "wow, neat, what a fabulous orchestration, this is a pretty good opera!" But when one thinks of the Puccini of _Che gelida manina, Nessun dorma, _and _O mio babbino caro_, etc, _Fanciulla _feels slightly out of place.

So, as strange as this may sound, let's say that _Fanciulla_ is a pretty good opera that had the misfortune of having been composed by Puccini...:lol:


----------



## emiellucifuge

Perhaps you are right, and perhaps i approach this from a different, maybe wrong, angle. Im not really a Puccini person so havent built up this expectation for good numbers, in fact this opera was my introduction into Puccini so ive come in from the other end.

If good numbers becomes an important factor in Puccini then for me, Turandot is his best. It includes Nessun Dorma obviously but also pushes boundaries and experiments - i particularly like Berios finish. However, if i look at the operas and their 'objective' place in music history then i can come to no other conclusion but to say that La Fanciulla del West is the best.


----------



## mamascarlatti

I don't think that Fanciulla is necessarily his best, just the one that I prefer and watch and listen to with greatest delight and appreciation.

I never have to overcome any disgust about the plot to watch it as I do with Butterfly, Turandot and Tosca.



Almaviva said:


> Well acted, it goes down pretty well like an old Western (in this, Pappano is right on target, I've always felt that _Fanciulla _goes down more like a movie than like an opera), despite its rather farfetched plot (huh... *so the rough miners just get all weepy and forgive the big bad criminal and let them go -* but then, many other operas have farfetched plots, I can't fault it for this). But I said I find it just "OK" because it doesn't carry as much punch and isn't as enchanting as Puccini's other masterpieces. I do enjoy it, I just am not crazy about it.


As well as the wonderful orchestration and the carry-through melodies, which just sweep me along on a wave of glorious sound, I love the plot. From a female's point of view it's the only opera where a woman is the prime, active, independent, morally sound mover in the story, without being in any way saccharine. And the miners give in because they know that, because Minnie is their moral beacon and has stood beside them for many years in their rough unforgiving life, because there is something more than an eye for an eye.


----------



## Elgarian

Almaviva said:


> Maybe the problem is the name Puccini attached to it. I guess if _Fanciulla_ had been composed by someone else, I'd have said, "wow, neat, what a fabulous orchestration, this is a pretty good opera!" But when one thinks of the Puccini of _Che gelida manina, Nessun dorma, _and _O mio babbino caro_, etc, _Fanciulla _feels slightly out of place.


I can identify with this a great deal.


----------



## emiellucifuge

A wave of glorious sound pretty much sums it up


----------



## jhar26

Tebaldi cold or Passionless???? I don't think so!!!.....

Tebaldi live in Suor Angelica






....and in the card scene from La Fanciulla


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Tebaldi cold or Passionless???? I don't think so!!!.....


I did say that I was probably saying something stupid, and made sure to include a remark that I thought so regarding the material that I have. I'm sure that for someone to be as highly regarded as her, she must have top work as well, but I wasn't as lucky with the stuff that I got.

I own this, and wasn't highly impressed with her interpretations, although her voice is flawless:


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

emiellucifuge said:


> La...West is (la) best!


This is one time I disagree with Jim Morrison.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> I did say that I was probably saying something stupid, and made sure to include a remark that I thought so regarding the material that I have.


It's ok, it doesn't matter.  I only wanted to show that Tebaldi is not just a cold technician with a great voice but that she really puts her heart and soul into it.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> It's ok, it doesn't matter.  I only wanted to show that Tebaldi is not just a cold technician with a great voice but that she really puts her heart and soul into it.


Cool. By the way, where did you get the story of the rivalry? Is there a book with juicy stories like that one?


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Cool. By the way, where did you get the story of the rivalry? Is there a book with juicy stories like that one?


From the Tebaldi biography called "The Voice of an Angel." But I had heard most of that story before really.










Juicy Diva Stories could be a fun thread if anyone has any.  If there are any Kathleen Battle fans here, go ahead and start one! :lol:


----------



## World Violist

jhar26 said:


> Juicy Diva Stories could be a fun thread if anyone has any.  If there are any Kathleen Battle fans here, go ahead and start one! :lol:


I even know some hilarious stories from Birgit Nilsson. She was unbelievably frank with Herbert von Karajan, which led to some... uh, interesting... discussions.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Would it be an idea to start similar threads in which we vote and debate for the top symphonies, top composers etc...

That way whenever new members join the forum and ask where they can start, we could simply direct them to these threads and sticky them also.


----------



## Elgarian

Just a quick note to say I'm going away for a week starting tomorrow. So if anyone notices that I'm not voting in the next round or two, it's because I'm not here.


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> Just a quick note to say I'm going away for a week starting tomorrow. So if anyone notices that I'm not voting in the next round or two, it's because I'm not here.


we miss you already.


----------



## sospiro

Elgarian said:


> Just a quick note to say I'm going away for a week starting tomorrow. So if anyone notices that I'm not voting in the next round or two, it's because I'm not here.












Bye for now

(No wi-fi?)


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> Just a quick note to say I'm going away for a week starting tomorrow. So if anyone notices that I'm not voting in the next round or two, it's because I'm not here.


Er..., can you give me power of attorney so that I vote twice?

We'll miss you, buddy. I hope what you're doing for a week is fun.


----------



## Elgarian

I haven't actually gone yet. Just wasn't sure if I'd have time later today to switch on the computer, but we seem to be all packed and everything already.

Couple of days in the grand old city of Bath: nothing nicer than breakfast in the Pump Room, and tea in the Assembly Rooms; pottering about the Royal Crescent soaking in that 18th Century feeling and wishing we could call on young Thomas Linley; and walking round the Circus, wishing we could call on Thomas Gainsborough; and more up to date - a visit to _Bath Compact Discs_. Then on to the south coast to stay by the sea for a few days (definitely no wi-fi, Annie).

So while you guys are having a jolly time voting for operas, don't forget some of us are getting some serious work done.

*@ Almaviva:*


> Er..., can you give me power of attorney so that I vote twice?


Yes of course, you have my full permission to vote for _Suor Angelica_ on my behalf.


----------



## jhar26

jhar26 said:


> *VOTING FOR POSITIONS 11 to 20*
> 
> These are the operas that qualified for this round of voting.....
> 
> Il Barbiere di Siviglia
> Carmen
> Cosi fan Tutte
> Lucia di Lammermoor
> Otello
> Parsifal
> Salome
> Tosca
> Wozzeck
> Die Zauberflote
> 
> ....please post your *TOP FIVE* choices of these operas in your order of preference.


And here are the results....

*Carmen...8/24
Die Zauberflote...8/24*

Parsifal...7/26
Il Barbiere di Siviglia...7/18
Otello...7/17

*Cosi fan Tutte...6/19
Tosca...6/19*

Wozzeck...4/13
Salome...4/12
Lucia di Lammermoor...3/8

As you can see we have two perfect draws again, but we need clear winners before we can give those operas a definitive ranking. So, let's play two tiebreak contests. I will only vote myself in case of yet another draw.

*Carmen* vs *Die Zauberflote*

and

*Cosi fan Tutte* vs *Tosca*

Happy voting.


----------



## sospiro

jhar26 said:


> And here are the results....
> 
> As you can see we have two perfect draws again, but we need clear winners before we can give those operas a definitive ranking. So, let's play two tiebreak contests. I will only vote myself in case of yet another draw.
> 
> *Carmen* vs *Die Zauberflote*
> 
> and
> 
> *Cosi fan Tutte* vs *Tosca*
> 
> Happy voting.


Carmen
Tosca


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

Die Zauberflöte
Tosca


----------



## mamascarlatti

Carmen
Tosca


----------



## jhar26

emiellucifuge said:


> Would it be an idea to start similar threads in which we vote and debate for the top symphonies, top composers etc...


Great idea, but I don't know if members on other sub-forums would like it as much as they do here. We can consider doing it once we're done with the opera top 100.

Once our top 100 is in place we can also consider adding performances we recommend to each title - one cd set and one dvd. Something like that. Could get complicated though, so maybe not such a good idea.


----------



## Almaviva

Carmen
Così


----------



## emiellucifuge

Die Zauberflote
Tosca


----------



## sospiro

jhar26 said:


> Great idea, but I don't know if members on other sub-forums would like it as much as they do here. We can consider doing it once we're done with the opera top 100.
> 
> Once our top 100 is in place we can also consider adding performances we recommend to each title - one cd set and one dvd. Something like that. Could get complicated though, so maybe not such a good idea.


Maybe we can have '100 Operas We Hate' then we can rant without upsetting peeps.

Suor Angelica & the Cura/Hvorostovsky Trovatore for starters anyone?


----------



## mamascarlatti

sospiro said:


> Maybe we can have '100 Operas We Hate' then we can rant without upsetting peeps.
> 
> Suor Angelica & the Cura/Hvorostovsky Trovatore for starters anyone?


I quite like the Cura/Hvorostovky Trovatore .


----------



## emiellucifuge

There you go youve already upset someone!


----------



## sospiro

mamascarlatti said:


> I quite like the Cura/Hvorostovky Trovatore .


:lol:

So do I

I was thinking about Alma's review


----------



## mamascarlatti

sospiro said:


> :lol:
> 
> So do I


I think it's our baser instincts kicking in.


----------



## Elgarian

Die Zauberflote
Cosi


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

jhar26 said:


> I will only vote myself in case of yet another draw.


That's absolutely inspired thinking!:tiphat:


sospiro said:


> Carmen
> Tosca





mamascarlatti said:


> Carmen
> Tosca


What she (collective, plural) said!!


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Great idea, but I don't know if members on other sub-forums would like it as much as they do here. We can consider doing it once we're done with the opera top 100.
> 
> Once our top 100 is in place we can also consider adding performances we recommend to each title - one cd set and one dvd. Something like that. Could get complicated though, so maybe not such a good idea.


I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to contribute. My knowledge of opera far exceeds my knowledge of other genres of classical music. I enjoy other genres, but wouldn't be able to talk about them or rank them.


----------



## Contessa

Die Zauberflote
Cosi fan Tutte


----------



## jflatter

Die Zauberflote
Tosca


----------



## Webernite

Die Zauberflote
Cosi fan Tutte


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

emiellucifuge said:


> Would it be an idea to start similar threads in which we vote and debate for the top symphonies... etc...


How soon they forget.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Yes i see your point! But those lists are probably not very representative of the forums opinion as the rankings were simply collated from each members top 10. I still think it would be a good idea to do a list using the method we use here.


----------



## mamascarlatti

emiellucifuge said:


> Yes i see your point! But those lists are probably not very representative of the forums opinion as the rankings were simply collated from each members top 10. I still think it would be a good idea to do a list using the method we use here.


Well you could start a thread in the appropriate sub-forum and see if they run with it.

Like Alma I won't participate because my interest in orchestral/chamber/solo music is now pretty lukewarm (unless you start one on 100 best Scarlatti sonatas, and I still haven't heard all 550 of them, and they are harder to keep track of than opera).


----------



## jhar26

jhar26 said:


> As you can see we have two perfect draws again, but we need clear winners before we can give those operas a definitive ranking. So, let's play two tiebreak contests. I will only vote myself in case of yet another draw.
> 
> *Carmen* vs *Die Zauberflote*
> 
> and
> 
> *Cosi fan Tutte* vs *Tosca*
> 
> Happy voting.


It doesn't seem likely that we'll get any more votes, so here's the end results....

Die Zauberflote beats Carmen and Tosca beats Cosi Fan Tutte - both by a two vote margin.


----------



## jhar26

*TOP 20*

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-5 Les Troyens*
*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
*11 Die Zauberflote*
*12 Carmen*
*13 Parsifal*
*14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia*
*15 Otello*
*16 Tosca*
*17 Cosi fan Tutte*
*18 Wozzeck*
*19 Salome*
*20 Lucia di Lammermoor*

*NEW NOMINATION ROUND!!!*

Please post your top five choices in your order of preference for positions 21 to 30. You can of course not vote for any of the operas in our top 20 and *neither can you vote for Elektra*, because that one already got enough votes in our previous nomintion round to be automatically qualified.


----------



## jhar26

jhar26 said:


> *NEW NOMINATION ROUND!!!*
> 
> Please post your top five choices in your order of preference for positions 21 to 30. You can of course not vote for any of the operas in our top 20 and *neither can you vote for Elektra*, because that one already got enough votes in our previous nomintion round to be automatically qualified.


My five...

-1 L'Orfeo (Monteverdi)
-2 Aida (Verdi)
-3 Don Carlos (Verdi)
-4 Jenufa (Janacek)
-5 Eugene Onegin (Tchaikovsky)


----------



## mamascarlatti

1. Don Carlos (Verdi)
2. L'Orfeo (Monteverdi)
3. Eugene Onegin (Tchaikovsky) 
4. La Fanciulla del West (Puccini)
5. Dido & Aeneas (Purcell)


----------



## emiellucifuge

1. Lohengrin
2. Les vespres siciliennes
3. Moses und aaron
4. La fanciulla del west
5. Die soldaten


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

1. Aïda (Verdi)
2. Tannhäuser (Wagner)
3. The Bartered Bride (Smetana)
4. Rigoletto (Verdi)
5. Cavalleria Rusticana (Mascagni)

Thoughts on these and a couple of other unlisted operas to follow...


----------



## Almaviva

1. Les Contes d'Hoffmann
2. Lohengrin
3. Lady Macbeth of Mtsenk District
4. Fidelio
5. Euryanthe

I know that with the exception of Lohengrin, I'm probably wasting my vote at this stage since the other four are unlikely to make it. But how could I not vote for these five astounding masterpieces? Les Contes d'Hoffmann, I've said it before, is a small miracle. It's a sci-fi opera... extremely entertaining, varied, with an interesting plot and sensacional numbers - think of la Barcarolle, the Doll song, Kleinzach.... Lohengrin doesn't need advocacy, it's so beautiful that I cry when I listen to it. Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk would be in everybody's list if only people knew it... arguably one of the top five operas of the 20th century, powerful, raw, rough, full of violence and lust like that troubled century. Fidelio, not without its problems, is still a spectacular achievement by someone who only tried his hand at opera once. Euryanthe also suffers from not being so well known, but oh my God, listen to it, it's got sublime music. Not listing these five among the top 30 is a felony punishable with a sentence of one year without listening to opera.

I'm a little upset that Boris Godunov and Rigoletto haven't made it yet, and I endorse Eugene Onegin and Don Carlos, but it looks like I don't need to advocate for these two. L'Orfeo is another excellent choice... I thought of including it, but it looks like it will make it by other votes as well. Often neglected Cavaleria Rusticana is another excellent choice (maybe I should have thrown my support behind it to add my voice to CTP), and Tannhäuser will eventually find its way. So, I thought I'd mention a few neglected masterpieces. Oh well, there's also La Damnation de Faust, another one that I'll be pretty much alone advocating for it... , but that's OK, I have my work cut for me already for the 31-40 round, when I promise to be really a pest while insisting on these fine operas.


----------



## Contessa

Rigoletto
La Cenerentola
Don Carlos
Fidelio
Aida


----------



## emiellucifuge

Right from the start:



Chi_townPhilly said:


> And in that spirit of co-operation, I will register no objections to any of the first 10 nominated (as I think they're all worthy of mention on a top 100 list), except to say this much-
> 
> *No list of top-10 operas should exclude Carmen*... period.


Carmen is now No. 12!


----------



## jflatter

1. Lohengrin
2. Don Carlos
3. Les Contes d'Hoffman
4. Tannhauser
5. Il Trovatore


----------



## Webernite

1. Castor et Pollux
2. Moses und Aron
3. Eugene Onegin
4. ?
5. ?

Anyone want to team up to support a couple of Handel operas? Or even some more Rameau?


----------



## Almaviva

Webernite said:


> 1. Castor et Pollux
> 2. Moses und Aron
> 3. Eugene Onegin
> 4. ?
> 5. ?
> 
> Anyone want to team up to support a couple of Handel operas? Or even some more Rameau?


Hey, your screen name is Webernite and you don't support my Euryanthe?

I could support Les Indes Galantes but I've voted in this round already. I like Alcina too.


----------



## emiellucifuge

I thought Webernite referred to Webern and not Weber


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Webernite said:


> 4. ?
> 5. ?
> 
> Anyone want to team up to support a couple of Handel operas?


Maybe you could semi-proxy for the vacationing *Elgarian* and support _Ariodante_.

Perhaps it's not too late to edit...


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Boris Godunov
2. Lohengrin
3. Rigoletto
4. L'Orfeo
5. Jenůfa

Boris Godunov not making it into the top 30 would be an absolute crime...


----------



## Webernite

Almaviva, I'm afraid it does refer to Webern. I feel bad now. To find out that I like Webern (of all people) rather than Weber must be a particularly unsettling surprise for a Rossini fan such as yourself. 

Any way, I'll edit my list of votes later, just in case anyone else has Handel or Rameau operas to suggest.


----------



## sospiro

1. Simon Boccanegra
2. Rigoletto
3. Macbeth
4. Hamlet
5. Eugene Onegin


----------



## Almaviva

Webernite said:


> Almaviva, I'm afraid it does refer to Webern. I feel bad now. To find out that I like Webern (of all people) rather than Weber must be a particularly unsettling surprise for a Rossini fan such as yourself.
> 
> Any way, I'll edit my list of votes later, just in case anyone else has Handel or Rameau operas to suggest.


Oops...  I'm too old fashioned for the Second Viennese School...:lol:

No, seriously, I'm not that bad... I don't just like Rossini, I even like Berg.

Hey, I did suggest one from Handel, one from Rameau, so now you owe me support! We could negotiate something for the next round.


----------



## World Violist

Almaviva said:


> Hey, I did suggest one from Handel, one from Rameau, so now you owe me support! We could negotiate something for the next round.







Hmm... I don't feel like nominating this time. Maybe I'll nominate again for 51-60.


----------



## Webernite

Very well then, I'll vote for Les Indes galantes. But instead of Alcina, Ariodante is my choice of Handel opera as Chi_townPhilly suggested. Here's my final list:

1. Castor et Pollux
2. Moses und Aron
3. Eugene Onegin
4. Les Indes galantes
5. Ariodante


----------



## Almaviva

Webernite said:


> Very well then, I'll vote for Les Indes galantes. But instead of Alcina, Ariodante is my choice of Handel opera as Chi_townPhilly suggested. Here's my final list:
> 
> 1. Castor et Pollux
> 2. Moses und Aron
> 3. Eugene Onegin
> 4. Les Indes galantes
> 5. Ariodante


Ariodante is an excellent choice:tiphat:


----------



## emiellucifuge

jhar26 said:


> Great idea, but I don't know if members on other sub-forums would like it as much as they do here. We can consider doing it once we're done with the opera top 100.


Just to clarify; were waiting until this thread is finished and then you the moderators will give it a go?


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

I'm just here for the sake of getting a Handel opera up there in the list regardless which one, as they are all masterpieces in their own way.

As _Ariodante_ has been mentioned, I shall vote for _Ariodante_.


----------



## jhar26

emiellucifuge said:


> Just to clarify; were waiting until this thread is finished and then you the moderators will give it a go?


Best composers or best symphonies? To tell you the truth, I don't know yet. If someone else - be it a mod or another member will do it I'll definitely vote though.


----------



## Almaviva

Do most people here frequent several different boards - like I know World_Violist and Aramis do - or do they specialize like Natalie and I?

I've started a couple of threads about symphonic works (Mahler, Berlioz) but the bulk of my posting is here. Am I within the rule or the exception? (It's a real question, I really don't know).

I'm asking just to figure out if the people voting for such lists would be about the same crowd, or very different.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Do most people here frequent several different boards - like I know World_Violist and Aramis do - or do they specialize like Natalie and I?
> 
> I've started a couple of threads about symphonic works (Mahler, Berlioz) but the bulk of my posting is here. Am I within the rule or the exception? (It's a real question, I really don't know).
> 
> I'm asking just to figure out if the people voting for such lists would be about the same crowd, or very different.


I do most of my posting here, but I'm interested enough in the other stuff as well to be able to vote.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Almaviva said:


> Do most people here frequent several different boards - like I know World_Violist and Aramis do - or do they specialize like Natalie and I?
> 
> I've started a couple of threads about symphonic works (Mahler, Berlioz) but the bulk of my posting is here. Am I within the rule or the exception? (It's a real question, I really don't know).
> 
> I'm asking just to figure out if the people voting for such lists would be about the same crowd, or very different.


I never really thought of them as separate boards until now. I post everywhere because I use the unread posts search at the top so it leads me everywhere.

Im gonna go ahead and start a TC 100 symphonies thread!

Jhar (sorry i dont know your real name!), would you mind explaining briefly how you tally the votes and give a ranking?
Thanks!


----------



## emiellucifuge

Here you go guys:
TC 100 Symphonies thread

Those of you who can please do participate


----------



## jhar26

emiellucifuge said:


> Jhar (sorry i dont know your real name!), would you mind explaining briefly how you tally the votes and give a ranking?
> Thanks!


Sure.

a) Ask people to nominate five symphonies and to rank them in their order of preference. When all the votes are in you first count the number of people that voted for each symphony. The symphonies that got the most nominations go through to the next phase. When there are draws (and there always are) the symphonies with the most points go through.

Points are awarded as such: five points to a number 1, four points to a number 2, and so on. But number of votes decide if possible for the following reason: If four people adore mamascarlatti's symphony number 3 and rank it at number five and only one person loves Almaviva's symphony number 8 and puts it at number one Almaviva has more points even though the forum as a whole likes mamascarlatti's symphony more.

b) The ten symphonies that get the most votes/points move on to the round where you decide on giving them a ranking on your top 100. Ask people to rank their top five choices from those ten symphonies. You could I suppose ask them to rank all ten, but in my opinion this is not such a good idea for two reasons:
1) Not everyone will know all ten symphonies, and it's hard to rank something you don't know.
2) It would encourage tactical voting. If I (for example) want mamascarlatti to win and I consider Almaviva her toughest competition I'd put mammascarlatti at number one and Almaviva at number ten - not out of conviction, but for purely tactical reasons.

Hope this helps. Don't be afraid to ask something if necessary. And you can of course also do it differently. My way is one way, but it's not the only way and not even necessarily the best way.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Thank you very much!


----------



## Art Rock

Never mind - must have started from an outdated post..


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> and only one person loves Almaviva's symphony number 8


Preposterous. Everybody loves my symphony number 8.


----------



## Air

1. Lulu
2. Dido and Aeneas
3. Duke Bluebeard's Castle
4. War and Peace
5. Le Grande Macabre

If I could, I would probably add _La Damnation de Faust_. I also highly support the two Rameau operas nominated so far, _Les Indes Galantes_ and _Castor et Pollux_.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Preposterous. Everybody loves my symphony number 8.


Not as much as they love your Anna Netrebko Cantata.


----------



## Almaviva

Air said:


> If I could, I would probably add _La Damnation de Faust_. I also highly support the two Rameau operas nominated so far, _Les Indes Galantes_ and _Castor et Pollux_.


Good, I like your thinking, let's team up and propose _La Damnation de Faust _and _Les Indes Galantes _for next round! _Castor et Pollux _has been seating for a long while in my unwatched pile. I bought it months ago and haven't managed to watch it yet.


----------



## jhar26

jhar26 said:


> *NEW NOMINATION ROUND!!!*
> 
> Please post your top five choices in your order of preference for positions 21 to 30. You can of course not vote for any of the operas in our top 20 and *neither can you vote for Elektra*, because that one already got enough votes in our previous nomintion round to be automatically qualified.


*RESULTS*

-Lohengrin...4/18
-Don Carlos...4/15
-Rigoletto...4/14
-Eugene Onegin...4/8
-L'Orfeo...3/11
-Aida...3/11
-Les Contes d'Hoffmann...2/8
-Moses und Aron...2/7
-Tannhauser...2/6

The above nine plus Elektra go on to our round deciding positions 21-30.

-La Fanciulla del West...2/4
-Fidelio...2/4
-Jenufa...2/3
-Ariodante...2/2

The above four didn't get enough points to participate in our 21-30 contest, but they got enough votes to automatically qualify for our round that will decide positions 31-40.


----------



## jhar26

*VOTING FOR POSITIONS 21-30*

-Aida
-Les Contes d'Hoffmann
-Don Carlos
-Elektra
-Eugen Onegin
-Lohengrin
-Moses und Aron
-L'Orfeo
-Rigoletto
-Tannhauser

Please vote for your top five choices from these ten operas.


----------



## jhar26

-1 L'Orfeo
-2 Elektra
-3 Aida
-4 Don Carlos
-5 Eugen Onegin


----------



## emiellucifuge

jhar26 said:


> *VOTING FOR POSITIONS 21-30*
> 
> -Aida
> -Les Contes d'Hoffmann
> -Don Carlos
> -Elektra
> -Eugen Onegin
> -Lohengrin
> -Moses und Aron
> -L'Orfeo
> -Rigoletto
> -Tannhauser
> 
> Please vote for your top five choices from these ten operas.


Elektra
Moses un aron
Lohengrin
Aida
Eugen onegin


----------



## Webernite

Surprised and glad that Moses und Aron made it. But Elektra will be far too low whatever happens now.

1. Elektra
2. Moses und Aron
3. Eugene Onegin
4. Lohengrin 
5. Tannhauser


----------



## mamascarlatti

1. Don Carlos
2. Eugen Onegin
3. L'Orfeo
4. Lohengrin
5. Les Contes d'Hoffmann


----------



## sospiro

1. Rigoletto
2. Eugene Onegin
3. Don Carlos
4. Les Contes d'Hoffman
5. Aida


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> *VOTING FOR POSITIONS 21-30*
> 
> -Aida
> -Les Contes d'Hoffmann
> -Don Carlos
> -Elektra
> -Eugen Onegin
> -Lohengrin
> -Moses und Aron
> -L'Orfeo
> -Rigoletto
> -Tannhauser
> 
> Please vote for your top five choices from these ten operas.


1. Les Contes d'Hoffmann
2. Lohengrin
3. Eugene Onegin
4. Rigoletto
5. L'Orfeo


----------



## jflatter

1. Lohengrin
2. Don Carlos
3 Les Contes d'Hoffman
4. Tannhauser
5. Elektra


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> -La Fanciulla del West...2/4
> -Fidelio...2/4
> -Jenufa...2/3
> -Ariodante...2/2
> 
> The above four didn't get enough points to participate in our 21-30 contest, but they got enough votes to automatically qualify for our round that will decide positions 31-40.


Something that has been bothering me in the back of my mind: The fact that these four operas have been quoted twice, is this enough of a standard to automatically qualify them for the next round? Aren't we setting the bar a bit too low? Mind you, I like all four of these operas and think they're worth listing, but I'm just a bit concerned about the process.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

1. *Tannhäuser*- still my pick for most widely misunderstood opera.
2. *Aïda*- many consider this Verdi's greatest opera. 
It might struggle to come in at number 4 or 5 among Verdi operas on our list.
3. *Tales of Hoffmann*
4. *Eugene Onegin*- feels weird that this might be our first Russian opera... 
but I don't think its greatness is subject to dispute.
5. *Lohengrin*


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Lohengrin
2. Rigoletto
3. L'Orfeo
4. Elektra
5. Moses und Aron

_Eugen Onegin_ making it before _Boris Godunov_ is certainly...interesting.


----------



## Contessa

Rigoletto
Don Carlos
Aida
Tannhauser
Les Contes d'Hoffmann


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Something that has been bothering me in the back of my mind: The fact that these four operas have been quoted twice, is this enough of a standard to automatically qualify them for the next round? Aren't we setting the bar a bit too low? Mind you, I like all four of these operas and think they're worth listing, but I'm just a bit concerned about the process.


They automatically qualify for the NEXT round because they were mentionned as many times as some of the operas that qualified for THIS round. Usually the number of mentions necessary for this ends up being three, but since people more and more are voting for a wide range of different operas, this time it ended up being two. But anyway, it seems logical to me that if for some operas two mentions are enough to qualify them for positions 21-30 that others with the same number of mentions as those operas should be allowed to contest positions 31-40.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> They automatically qualify for the NEXT round because they were mentionned as many times as some of the operas that qualified for THIS round. Usually the number of mentions necessary for this ends up being three, but since people more and more are voting for a wide range of different operas, this time it ended up being two. But anyway, it seems logical to me that if for some operas two mentions are enough to qualify them for positions 21-30 that others with the same number of mentions as those operas should be allowed to contest positions 31-40.


Fair enough


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Fair enough


I understand your concern though, but situations like these are almost inevitable when 'only' ten or twelve people participate in the voting as is the case here.


----------



## Ravellian

My votes will be biased towards Wagner as I am a Wagnerian 
1. Tannhauser
2. Lohengrin
3. Aida
4. Eugene Onegin
5. Rigoletto


----------



## Almaviva

Ravellian said:


> My votes will be biased towards Wagner as I am a Wagnerian


Nothing wrong with that! I'd say it's not a bias, because if you love his music, it's quite natural that you recommend his operas ahead of others which is the point of the thread (we settled for what we *recommend*, not for what is "best" which is elusive and subjective).


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> I understand your concern though, but situations like these are almost inevitable when 'only' ten or twelve people participate in the voting as is the case here.


Hm... I guess this thing is still bugging me. See, as we progress to higher brackets, this sort of thing may happen a lot, to the point that we may start getting automatic inclusions thanks to *one* nomination. Would we then still be able to call this the *top* recommended operas from the TC body of membership? There are more than 800 active members, although of course just a sub-set are opera fans and have accepted to get involved with this project. But still, I think that if we keep proceeding this way, we risk to get to a less and less meaningful list. I wonder what's the significance of recommending something under the title of this project (that is, a collective recommendation) when it gets june one nomination (1/800th of our membership corps).

So I propose, for your consideration, that some sort of secondary vote be included at your discretion in special situations to endorse - or not - operas with very low number of nominations. Even though we're some 15 folks here, we might still consult the participants on the validity of automatic qualifications for the next bracket when something that seems a little odd gets in with a very low number of endorsements.

Say, we get one or two guys or gals with some unusual taste who happen to nominate something like... I don't know, let me think of something fairly obscure... OK, Smetana's _Libuse (_which not even in the Czech Republic is that highly regarded) in the 31-40 bracket.Then we'd say, "okaaaaayyy... are we all really comfortable with this opera making it as one of the top 50 recommended ones (since it would have a guaranteed place in the next bracket of 41-50) according to our body of membership?" We might get a resonant "no" from the other 13 or 14 people involved with the project... So that the proponent(s) would say, "OK, sorry, guys, I tried, but you may have a point that this should not be in our *collective* top 50 recommendation, it's just a pet opera of mine but I do recognize that I may be alone in feeling this way."

You know, I think that there are many more than 100 operas that are worth recommending... so by accepting without further discussion some "zebras" we may end up missing several others that might be much more widely endorsed if only people were reminded of them by a lonely nomination - in which case, a similar consult might get a resonant "yes." So, a potentially big yes might be missed just because of running out of space to include it, thanks to an early zebra.

Again, this hasn't happened yet, and so far everything that has been mentioned is pretty good stuff, but I'm just thinking ahead, when we get to the more rarefied air in the upper brackets.

Otherwise we may end up in need of adding a subtitle to our final list, with something like "the top 100 recommended operas by the membership corps of Talk Classical, except that some guy likes _Libuse.":lol:_


----------



## Violinnostalgics

Hi people, 
How 'bout Verdi?


----------



## Almaviva

Violinnostalgics said:


> Hi people,
> How 'bout Verdi?


What about him?
He's been getting a fair number of nominations.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Hm... I guess this thing is still bugging me. See, as we progress to higher brackets, this sort of thing may happen a lot, to the point that we may start getting automatic inclusions thanks to *one* nomination. Would we then still be able to call this the *top* recommended operas from the TC body of membership? There are more than 800 active members, although of course just a sub-set are opera fans and have accepted to get involved with this project. But still, I think that if we keep proceeding this way, we risk to get to a less and less meaningful list. I wonder what's the significance of recommending something under the title of this project (that is, a collective recommendation) when it gets june one nomination (1/800th of our membership corps).
> 
> So I propose, for your consideration, that some sort of secondary vote be included at your discretion in special situations to endorse - or not - operas with very low number of nominations. Even though we're some 15 folks here, we might still consult the participants on the validity of automatic qualifications for the next bracket when something that seems a little odd gets in with a very low number of endorsements.
> 
> Say, we get one or two guys or gals with some unusual taste who happen to nominate something like... I don't know, let me think of something fairly obscure... OK, Smetana's _Libuse (_which not even in the Czech Republic is that highly regarded) in the 31-40 bracket.Then we'd say, "okaaaaayyy... are we all really comfortable with this opera making it as one of the top 50 recommended ones (since it would have a guaranteed place in the next bracket of 41-50) according to our body of membership?" We might get a resonant "no" from the other 13 or 14 people involved with the project... So that the proponent(s) would say, "OK, sorry, guys, I tried, but you may have a point that this should not be in our *collective* top 50 recommendation, it's just a pet opera of mine but I do recognize that I may be alone in feeling this way."
> 
> You know, I think that there are many more than 100 operas that are worth recommending... so by accepting without further discussion some "zebras" we may end up missing several others that might be much more widely endorsed if only people were reminded of them by a lonely nomination - in which case, a similar consult might get a resonant "yes." So, a potentially big yes might be missed just because of running out of space to include it, thanks to an early zebra.
> 
> Again, this hasn't happened yet, and so far everything that has been mentioned is pretty good stuff, but I'm just thinking ahead, when we get to the more rarefied air in the upper brackets.
> 
> Otherwise we may end up in need of adding a subtitle to our final list, with something like "the top 100 recommended operas by the membership corps of Talk Classical, except that some guy likes _Libuse.":lol:_


I guess we could set a limit of "three nominations needed to go through." But than we'll probably need to play several nomination rounds for each bracket of ten which I don't mind doing but it will confuse lots of members and slow things down considerably.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> I guess we could set a limit of "three nominations needed to go through." But than we'll probably need to play several nomination rounds for each bracket of ten which I don't mind doing but it will confuse lots of members and slow things down considerably.


What I had in mind was more in the line of you wearing the hat of a watchdog from time to time and on occasion, if justified, consulting the membership on the adequacy of some weird low-number nomination *if* it happened.

Say something is about to go through with one or two nominations and it doesn't feel right to you (you're in charge of the project, after all), then you ask - 'hey folks, yay or nay for this one?' This wouldn't slow down the process too much.

You know, people one day will be consulting this list, and I'm just trying to prevent the possibility that someone will be saying... 'why in the hell did the TC opera community recommend _Libuse _as a top opera???' I'm trying to take care of our collective reputation, LOL.

Anyway maybe I'm just taking this too seriously, and it hasn't even happened yet, so, it's up to you.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> What I had in mind was more in the line of you wearing the hat of a watchdog from time to time and on occasion, if justified, consulting the membership on the adequacy of some weird low-number nomination *if* it happened.
> 
> Say something is about to go through with one or two nominations and it doesn't feel right to you (you're in charge of the project, after all), then you ask - 'hey folks, yay or nay for this one?' This wouldn't slow down the process too much.
> 
> You know, people one day will be consulting this list, and I'm just trying to prevent the possibility that someone will be saying... 'why in the hell did the TC opera community recommend _Libuse _as a top opera???' I'm trying to take care of our collective reputation, LOL.
> 
> Anyway maybe I'm just taking this too seriously, and it hasn't even happened yet, so, it's up to you.


What we can do is look for twelve instead of ten nominations with only the top ten vote/point getters of those twelve ending up on our ranking list. That way we don't have to change the formula too much but still have some quality control because a nomination that makes no sense wouldn't make it. What do you think?


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> What we can do is look for twelve instead of ten nominations with only the top ten vote/point getters of those twelve ending up on our ranking list. That way we don't have to change the formula too much but still have some quality control because a nomination that makes no sense wouldn't make it. What do you think?


Maybe we should just do away with the automatic qualifications for the next round. People would have to resubmit anything that hasn't qualified in the top ten of that round, which would then push low number nominations to the back of the line again until they got some better endorsement.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Maybe we should just do away with the automatic qualifications for the next round. People would have to resubmit anything that hasn't qualified in the top ten of that round, which would then push low number nominations to the back of the line again until they got some better endorsement.


Let's compromise. Anything that got three or more nominations is automatically qualified - the rest should have to be nominated again in the next round of voting. That seems fair to me.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Let's compromise. Anything that got three or more nominations is automatically qualified - the rest should have to be nominated again in the next round of voting. That seems fair to me.


That's a good compromise, well done, sir!:tiphat:


----------



## jhar26

*POSITIONS 21-30 - THE RESULTS*

Lohengrin...8/26
Eugen Onegin...8/20
Aida...6/16
Les Contes d'Hoffmann...6/15
Don Carlos...5/18
Elektra...5/17
Rigoletto...5/17
Tannhauser...5/15
L'Orfeo...4/12
Moses und Aron...3/9


----------



## jhar26

*TOP 30*

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-5 Les Troyens*
*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
*11 Die Zauberflote*
*12 Carmen*
*13 Parsifal*
*14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia*
*15 Otello*
*16 Tosca*
*17 Cosi fan Tutte*
*18 Wozzeck*
*19 Salome*
*20 Lucia di Lammermoor*
*21 Lohengrin*
*22 Eugene Onegin*
*23 Aida*
*24 Les Contes d'Hoffmann*
*25 Don Carlos*

*26 Elektra*
*26 Rigoletto*

*28 Tannhauser*
*29 L'Orfeo*
*30 Moses und Aron*

We will start the next nominating round tomorrow, but first we'll settle who's gonna be our number 26 because we have a perfect draw there.

So, which one should it be - *Rigoletto * or *Elektra*? You have 24 hours to vote and I will only vote myself if there's another draw.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Rigoletto lalalala 

(message too short, hence the lalala)


----------



## Almaviva

Rigoletto lalalala (nice name for an opera):lol:

P.S. Rigoletto *is* my vote, BTW


----------



## Air

Elektra FTW.


----------



## sospiro

Rigoletto


----------



## Aramis

All pretentious basterds know that Elektra is better because there are no tunes and it's more important and less accessible and stuff, I vote for Elektra, go go go snooty team 

Btw, good to see Troyens so high, even though it's obviously little TC perversion 

Also, let me say some nasty things about Rosenkavalier much higher than Salome (snooty team disapproves), Eugene Onegin being only Russian opera.... good thing is that there is Wozzeck GOOD JOB SNOOTY CREW


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

Rigoletto...


----------



## Webernite

Aramis said:


> All pretentious basterds know that Elektra is better because there are no tunes and it's more important and less accessible and stuff, I vote for Elektra, go go go snooty team
> 
> Btw, good to see Troyens so high, even though it's obviously little TC perversion
> 
> Also, let me say some nasty things about Rosenkavalier much higher than Salome (snooty team disapproves), Eugene Onegin being only Russian opera.... good thing is that there is Wozzeck GOOD JOB SNOOTY CREW


I like the idea that compared with Verdi, even Strauss is a snooty modernist.

I vote for Elektra.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Aramis said:


> All pretentious basterds know that Elektra is better because there are no tunes and it's more important and less accessible and stuff, I vote for Elektra, go go go snooty team
> 
> Btw, good to see Troyens so high, even though it's obviously little TC perversion
> 
> Also, let me say some nasty things about Rosenkavalier much higher than Salome (snooty team disapproves), Eugene Onegin being only Russian opera.... good thing is that there is Wozzeck GOOD JOB SNOOTY CREW


OMG I've missed your posts Aramis.
:tiphat::lol:


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Rigoletto.

First opera I ever saw, live.

Some trivia HERE.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Aramis said:


> All pretentious basterds know that Elektra is better because there are no tunes and it's more important and less accessible and stuff, I vote for Elektra, go go go snooty team
> 
> Btw, good to see Troyens so high, even though it's obviously little TC perversion
> 
> Also, let me say some nasty things about Rosenkavalier much higher than Salome (snooty team disapproves), Eugene Onegin being only Russian opera.... good thing is that there is Wozzeck GOOD JOB SNOOTY CREW


How can you turn such a mundane situation into comedy? :lol:

I vote with Snooty Crew, go Elektra.
And youll be pleased to know that Moses Und Aron is No. 30!!!


----------



## Almaviva

Aramis said:


> All pretentious basterds know that Elektra is better because there are no tunes and it's more important and less accessible and stuff, I vote for Elektra, go go go snooty team
> 
> Btw, good to see Troyens so high, even though it's obviously little TC perversion
> 
> Also, let me say some nasty things about Rosenkavalier much higher than Salome (snooty team disapproves), Eugene Onegin being only Russian opera.... good thing is that there is Wozzeck GOOD JOB SNOOTY CREW


I have pushed for Boris Godunov but it didn't stick. 
I think Les Troyens fully deserves its ranking, if not higher.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> I have pushed for Boris Godunov but it didn't stick.
> I think Les Troyens fully deserves its ranking, if not higher.


I'm sure that we all have operas in our minds that are worthy of a top 30 ranking that didn't make it. But the ones that did make it are worthy as well. Unfortunately only thirty titles fit into a top 30.

No matter how great our top 100 is gonna turn out to be, I'm sure that by the end of it we could easily replace half of them and still have a list that is just as great.


----------



## jhar26

Rigoletto has beaten Elektra by one vote in the tiebreaker, so this is our top 30....

*TOP 30*

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-5 Les Troyens*
*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
*11 Die Zauberflote*
*12 Carmen*
*13 Parsifal*
*14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia*
*15 Otello*
*16 Tosca*
*17 Cosi fan Tutte*
*18 Wozzeck*
*19 Salome*
*20 Lucia di Lammermoor*
*21 Lohengrin*
*22 Eugene Onegin*
*23 Aida*
*24 Les Contes d'Hoffmann*
*25 Don Carlos*
*26 Rigoletto*
*27 Elektra*
*28 Tannhauser*
*29 L'Orfeo*
*30 Moses und Aron*

*NEW NOMINATION ROUND*

Please nominate five operas for positions 31-40 and put them in your order of preference. You obviously can't nominate any of the above and neither can you nominate *La Fanciulla del West, Fidelio, Jenufa* or *Ariodante*. They are already qualified.


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Boris Godunov
2. Falstaff
3. Der Fliegende Holländer
4. Norma
5. Der Freischütz


----------



## jhar26

-1 Madama Butterfly
-2 Porgy & Bess
-3 Norma
-4 Falstaff
-5 L'Amour de Loin


----------



## mamascarlatti

jhar26 said:


> *Ariadne *(the Handel opera). They are already qualified.


I presume you mean Ariodante?


----------



## mamascarlatti

Dido and Aeneas
Porgy and Bess
L'Incoronazione di Poppea
Les Indes Galantes
L'Elisir d'Amore


----------



## jhar26

mamascarlatti said:


> I presume you mean Ariodante?


Indeed I do.

My smart explanation is that I was only testing to see if you guys were paying attention.


----------



## emiellucifuge

War and Peace
Boris Godunov
Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
Die Soldaten
Duke Bluebeards Castle


----------



## Air

A repeat of my nominations from the last round: 

Lulu
Dido and Aeneas
Duke Bluebeard's Castle
War and Peace
Le Grande Macabre


----------



## sospiro

1. Simon Boccanegra
2. Macbeth
3. Hamlet
4. Madama Butterfly
5. Ernani


----------



## Webernite

1. Castor et Pollux
2. Les Indes galantes
3. Capriccio
4. War and Peace
5. Lulu


----------



## emiellucifuge

For those of you who dont know why i keep nominating this 'Die Soldaten' opera, please read the following article:
http://www.therestisnoise.com/2008/07/zimmermanns-die.html


----------



## Almaviva

1. Boris Godunov
2. Porgy and Bess
3. Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk District
4. La Damnation de Faust
5. Norma

Although I'm tortured for not including Les Indes Galantes, I think all five above are superior to it, barely (it certainly will be among my nominees for the next round). I'm quite suprised that Norma (Casta Diva, anyone???) and Boris haven't made it yet. And folks, I can't believe you're not in love with La Damnation de Faust - it's very dramatic, compelling, beautiful, with a hectic pace and a stupendous libretto. Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk is with no possible doubt one of the best operas of the 20th century. And about Porgy and Bess I refer you to the thread I've started on it, but I think it's got 3 nominations already so it should be safe.


----------



## Meaghan

Wow, I'm admittedly not very well versed in opera, but I can't help but be surprised that there's no mention of Britten!

I love his operas. But what do I know.

1. Peter Grimes!!!
2. Dido and Aeneas
3. Norma

And a couple long shots...

4. A Midsummer Night's Dream (Britten)
5. Nixon in China


----------



## Almaviva

Meaghan said:


> Wow, I'm admittedly not very well versed in opera, but I can't help but be surprised that there's no mention of Britten!
> 
> I love his operas. But what do I know.
> 
> 1. Peter Grimes!!!
> 2. Dido and Aeneas
> 3. Norma
> 
> And a couple long shots...
> 
> 4. A Midsummer Night's Dream (Britten)
> 5. Nixon in China


You're right, Peter Grimes should have been nominated already and I thank you for reminding us. But the problem is that there are so many great operas that we're bond to let some of them behind and only place them in higher brackets. Shame on us, but it happens.


----------



## Air

Almaviva said:


> Although I'm tortured for not including Les Indes Galantes, I think all five above are superior to it, barely (it certainly will be among my nominees for the next round)... And folks, I can't believe you're not in love with La Damnation de Faust - it's very dramatic, compelling, beautiful, with a hectic pace and a stupendous libretto.


I forgot the deal, dang. 

And Norma...


----------



## jflatter

Der Flieginde Hollander
Il Trovatore
Boris Godunov
Il Turco in Italia
Norma


----------



## Almaviva

Air said:


> I forgot the deal, dang.
> 
> And Norma...


Me too...  What was the deal already? I think I was supposed to support Les Indes Galantes and another Handel (but Ariodante has made it already, right?) while you were supposed to support, what, Norma and...? I don't remember and I feel lazy about browsing back to find out. We can always redo the deal for the next round.


----------



## Air

We were both going to support _La Damnation de Faust_ and _Les Indes Galantes_. Unfortunately, my agenda was already too large with _Lulu_, Dido, Bluebeard's, _War and Peace_, and Macabre... none of which made it last time. Add _Norma_ and _Peter Grimes_ to that deal, and I need a list of 10 instead of a list of 5. 

Thankfully, I see hope for _Lulu_, Dido, and _War and Peace_ this round.


----------



## Contessa

Don Pasquale
La Cenerentola
Norma
Ballo in Maschera
Xerxes


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

1. *Orfeo ed Euridice*- Gluck
2. *Boris Godunov*- Mussorgsky
3. *Faust*- Gounod
4. *The Bartered Bride*- Smetana
5. *I Pagliacci*- Leoncavallo

Did you know that, of the six names on the Proscenium Arch of the Old (pre-Lincoln 
Center) MET in New York, Gluck & Gounod were two of the composers so listed?
Still, except for ol' _Boris_, I expect that this will be another of those spitting-in-the-wind sets of nominations...


----------



## sospiro

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Still, except for ol' _Boris_, I expect that this will be another of those spitting-in-the-wind sets of nominations...


You think yours are s-i-t-w nominations??

I'll be lucky if my Simon gets in the Top 1000 at this rate


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

sospiro said:


> You think yours are s-i-t-w nominations??
> 
> I'll be lucky if my Simon gets in the Top 1000 at this rate


Do you want to share a mutual vent- I'll fulminate re: _Bartered Bride_, you can rail re: _Simon Boccanegra_?_____:scold:

Having trouble getting my mind around the collective lack of respect for _The Bartered Bride_. I didn't nominate it in the top-10, but I think it wouldn't be out-of-place on a top-20 list. I believe it to be the best operatic comedy outside of the Mozart-Da Ponte stuff, _Meistersinger_ (and maybe Falstaff). _Jenufa_ will probably finish higher mad- the people of the Czech Republic (who know this stuff best) would almost certainly disagree.

In addition to being the operatic gem of that (possibly) pound-for-pound greatest nation for Classical Music, it's also a rollicking good story- and (for the clincher) contains a fair bit of instrumental music that is of sufficient quality to have a life in the Concert Hall... you know- kind of like someone named Wagner.

It may have sounded for a minute like I take this stuff more seriously that I actually do- but _honestly_....__________:scold:


----------



## World Violist

Meaghan said:


> Wow, I'm admittedly not very well versed in opera, but I can't help but be surprised that there's no mention of Britten!


One of my first nominations was Curlew River, I think.

Anyway... let's try this again, shall we... a bit different.

1. Oedipe
2. Curlew River
3. Nuit des Hommes
4. L'amour de loin
5. Lulu

I only edited this because I had a lengthy footnote that some digging in the thread proved unnecessary. So there.


----------



## Almaviva

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Do you want to share a mutual vent- I'll fulminate re: _Bartered Bride_, you can rail re: _Simon Boccanegra_?_____:scold:
> 
> Having trouble getting my mind around the collective lack of respect for _The Bartered Bride_. I didn't nominate it in the top-10, but I think it wouldn't be out-of-place on a top-20 list. I believe it to be the best operatic comedy outside of the Mozart-Da Ponte stuff, _Meistersinger_ (and maybe Falstaff). _Jenufa_ will probably finish higher mad- the people of the Czech Republic (who know this stuff best) would almost certainly disagree.
> 
> In addition to being the operatic gem of that (possibly) pound-for-pound greatest nation for Classical Music, it's also a rollicking good story- and (for the clincher) contains a fair bit of instrumental music that is of sufficient quality to have a life in the Concert Hall... you know- kind of like someone named Wagner.
> 
> It may have sounded for a minute like I take this stuff more seriously that I actually do- but _honestly_....__________:scold:


I may support you on this soon, since I've just received in the mail my DVD version of The Bartered Bride, as well as a CD version of the same from my public library so I'll be diving into both versions soon. The DVD is with Siegfried Jerusalem and Lucia Popp, Wiener Staatsoper conducted by Adam Fisher. The CD is with the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra and an all-Czech cast (names unknown to me) conducted by Zdeneck Kosler. Depending on how the day goes today I may finish them up so for the next round I'll be prepared to nominate it if I like it (and judging by what you're saying, I believe I will)


----------



## Almaviva

sospiro said:


> You think yours are s-i-t-w nominations??
> 
> I'll be lucky if my Simon gets in the Top 1000 at this rate


Simon is a nice opera that should make it eventually. By the way, I'm planning a little rebellion at the end... to push for the extension of the list to 150 if many of our favorites don't make it... I did the same, successfuly, in the top 100 recommended symphonies thread, which now reads top 150.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Simon is a nice opera that should make it eventually. By the way, I'm planning a little rebellion at the end... to push for the extension of the list to 150 if many of our favorites don't make it... I did the same, successfuly, in the top 100 recommended symphonies thread, which now reads top 150.


There are more people participating in the symphonies thread. I'm not opposed to doing a top 150 or even top 200, but if by the time we get to the 100th ranked opera there are only still four or five people voting there's no point in taking it any further.

Maybe it's a good idea to do this every year. New members might join in and those that are participating now will have heard operas they were not yet familiar with which may slightly change the way they vote.


----------



## sospiro

I know that quite soon I'll run out of operas which I know, so I'll have to exclude myself from the project


----------



## jhar26

sospiro said:


> I know that quite soon I'll run out of operas which I know, so I'll have to exclude myself from the project


No problem Annie. Please keep participating for as long as you can, we can't ask for anything more than that.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Almaviva said:


> Simon is a nice opera that should make it eventually. By the way, I'm planning a little rebellion at the end... to push for the extension of the list to 150 if many of our favorites don't make it... I did the same, successfuly, in the top 100 recommended symphonies thread, which now reads top 150.


Trying to take all the credit eh...?


----------



## Almaviva

emiellucifuge said:


> Trying to take all the credit eh...?


Hey, I was the first one to say it, look at the time stamps.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> There are more people participating in the symphonies thread. I'm not opposed to doing a top 150 or even top 200, but if by the time we get to the 100th ranked opera there are only still four or five people voting there's no point in taking it any further.
> 
> Maybe it's a good idea to do this every year. New members might join in and those that are participating now will have heard operas they were not yet familiar with which may slightly change the way they vote.


Definitely.:tiphat:


----------



## jhar26

*NOMINATION ROUND RESULTS*

Norma...6/13
Boris Godunov...5/21
Dido and Aeneas...3/13
Porgy and Bess...3/12
War and Peace...3/9
Lulu...3/7

These move on to the round of 31-40. All other operas you mentionned got only one or two votes.


----------



## jhar26

*Voting for Positions 31-40*

Here are our ten contenders....

Norma
Boris Godunov
Dido and Aeneas
Porgy and Bess
War and Peace
Lulu
La Fanciulla del West
Ariodante
Fidelio
Jenufa

Please choose your five faves of these and rank them in your order of preference.....


----------



## sospiro

1. La Fanciulla del West
2. Norma
3. Porgy and Bess
4. Fidelio
5. Boris Godunov


----------



## Almaviva

1. Boris Godunov
2. Norma
3. Fidelio
4. Porgy and Bess
5. Jenufa


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

_1. Boris Godunov
2. Porgy & Bess
3. Norma
4. Fidelio
5. Ariodante_

All kinds of repertory operas still out there- so I'm hoping that the comments of some that they'll soon run out of operas will prove to be an exaggeration.

I believe I see two over-arching trends- a) we've proven to have a taste for the epic, which has been a benefit to (most notably) Wagner (but certain other works, too), and b) we're a bit less likely to forgive a dodgy book for the sake of great music. As contrary examples, I believe that _Falstaff_, _I Pagliacci_ and _The Bartered Bride_ were hurt by factor one; while _Turandot_ and _Il Trovatore_ were hurt by factor two.


----------



## mamascarlatti

La Fanciulla del West
Dido and Aeneas
Porgy and Bess
War and Peace
Fidelio


----------



## emiellucifuge

La Fanciulla
War & Peace
Boris Godunov
Lulu
Jenufa


----------



## jflatter

1. Boris Godunov
2. Norma
3. Fidelio
4. Jenufa
5. La Fanciulla del West


----------



## Webernite

1. War and Peace
2. Lulu
3. Ariodante
4. Fidelio
5. Dido and Aeneas


----------



## World Violist

1. Lulu
2. Dido & Aeneas
3. Boris Godunov
4. Jenufa
5. Norma


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Boris Godunov
2. Jenůfa
3. Norma
4. Fidelio
5. Dido and Aeneas


----------



## Contessa

1 Fidelio
2 Ariodante
3 Norma
4 La Fanciulla del West
5 Dido & Aeneas


----------



## Ravellian

How could Boris Godunov be this low? 

1. Boris Godunov
2. Norma
3. Fidelio
4. War and Peace
5. Dido and Aeneas


----------



## Air

1. Boris Godunov
2. Lulu
3. War and Peace
4. Dido and Aeneas
5. Norma


----------



## Almaviva

Chi_townPhilly said:


> _1. Boris Godunov_
> _2. Porgy & Bess_
> _3. Norma_
> _4. Fidelio_
> _5. Ariodante_
> 
> All kinds of repertory operas still out there- so I'm hoping that the comments of some that they'll soon run out of operas will prove to be an exaggeration.
> 
> I believe I see two over-arching trends- a) we've proven to have a taste for the epic, which has been a benefit to (most notably) Wagner (but certain other works, too), and b) we're a bit less likely to forgive a dodgy book for the sake of great music. As contrary examples, I believe that _Falstaff_, _I Pagliacci_ and _The Bartered Bride_ were hurt by factor one; while _Turandot_ and _Il Trovatore_ were hurt by factor two.


Maybe The Bartered Bride suffered from relative lack of exposure. I can't imagine someone watching that delightful opera and not enjoying it wildly. But I personally do prefer the epic and the tragic. I like comedic operas too, better proof, my love for Rossini, but while ranking operas I tend to get more impressed with the epic and the tragic. As for librettos, I do give a pass to many of them; opera can be silly and at times it doesn't bother me. I'm more willing to forgive a bad libretto than an opera that musically lacks pace and structure.


----------



## World Violist

Almaviva said:


> Maybe The Bartered Bride suffered from relative lack of exposure. I can't imagine someone watching that delightful opera and not enjoying it wildly. But I personally do prefer the epic and the tragic. I like comedic operas too, better proof, my love for Rossini, but while ranking operas I tend to get more impressed with the epic and the tragic. As for librettos, I do give a pass to many of them; opera can be silly and at times it doesn't bother me. I'm more willing to forgive a bad libretto than an opera that musically lacks pace and structure.


I think lack of exposure is a third major factor, and I think the lack of Oedipe on this list enforces this as well as does the Bartered Bride.

As for libretto, I could honestly care less for libretto for the most part (except for that of Dr. Atomic, which was pretty dreadful, stale, blah blah etc.).

I could get all psychological and say that we TCer's tend toward the epic and tragic because people have so many frankly stupid and inconsequential happenings in day to day life that sometimes having something actually really serious in life is actually a relief, but I won't. Yay for the modern world.


----------



## jhar26

-1 Norma
-2 Porgy and Bess
-3 Dido and Aeneas
-4 Jenufa
-5 La Fanciulla del West


----------



## jhar26

Chi_townPhilly said:


> _
> 
> I believe I see two over-arching trends- a) we've proven to have a taste for the epic, which has been a benefit to (most notably) Wagner (but certain other works, too), and b) we're a bit less likely to forgive a dodgy book for the sake of great music. As contrary examples, I believe that Falstaff, I Pagliacci and The Bartered Bride were hurt by factor one; while Turandot and Il Trovatore were hurt by factor two._


_
The biggest surprises to me so far are the incredibly high ranking of Les Troyens and that La Fanciulla del West made the top 40, but Madama Butterfly and Turandot didn't._


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> The biggest surprises to me so far are the incredibly high ranking of Les Troyens and that La Fanciulla del West made the top 40, but Madama Butterfly and Turandot didn't.


 :scold: Why are you guys still underestimating Les Troyens? It's a spectacular opera! Number two of all times in my personal list. Poor Berlioz was underestimated in his life time, hopefully less now, but still. Les Troyens is a towering achievement. It's the Latin Ring.

I don't particularly care for La Fanciulla del West and I agree that in terms of importance, Madama Butterfly and Turandot should be above it. But the people have spoken.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> :scold: Why are you guys still underestimating Les Troyens? It's a spectacular opera! Number two of all times in my personal list. Poor Berlioz was underestimated in his life time, hopefully less now, but still. Les Troyens is a towering achievement. It's the Latin Ring.


I didn't say that it isn't a great opera. I said that it's surprising that it got such a high ranking, which considering how popular many operas are that are ranked beneath it is hard to deny.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> I didn't say that it isn't a great opera. I said that it's surprising that it got such a high ranking, which considering how popular many operas are that are ranked beneath it is hard to deny.


This shows how discriminating, knowledgeable, and how equipped with excellent taste we, the collective staff and membership of this site, are.

If someone says - "Why did you guys rank Les Troyens so high? It isn't as high in other lists and not as popular as other operas you've ranked lower!" We should then reply: "That's because we know better!"

P.S. The little tantrum was tongue-in-cheek


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

It's because we have a small statistical sample size. Do a survey on folks who pay full ticket prices at opera houses around the world, and then you'll get a real picture of top X favourites.

I like _Les Troyens_. It's fine, not over the moon stuff for me, but fine. (Mine is by The Monteverdi Choir, _Choeur du Théâtre du Châtelet & Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique_ (on period instruments), Sir John Eliot Gardiner).


----------



## jhar26

*31-40 RESULTS*

Norma...10/32
Boris Godunov...9/37
Fidelio...9/23
Dido and Aeneas...8/17
La Fanciulla del West...6/19
Jenufa...6/12
Porgy & Bess...5/16
War and Peace...5/16
Lulu...4/15
Ariodante...3/8


----------



## jhar26

*TOP 30*

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-5 Les Troyens*
*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
*11 Die Zauberflote*
*12 Carmen*
*13 Parsifal*
*14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia*
*15 Otello*
*16 Tosca*
*17 Cosi fan Tutte*
*18 Wozzeck*
*19 Salome*
*20 Lucia di Lammermoor*
*21 Lohengrin*
*22 Eugene Onegin*
*23 Aida*
*24 Les Contes d'Hoffmann*
*25 Don Carlos*
*26 Rigoletto*
*27 Elektra*
*28 Tannhauser*
*29 L'Orfeo*
*30 Moses und Aron*
*31 Norma*
*32 Boris Godunov*
*33 Fidelio*
*34 Dido and Aeneas*
*35 La Fanciulla del West*
*36 Jenufa*

*37 Porgy & Bess*
*37 War and Peace*

*39 Lulu*
*40 Ariodante*

*Tiebreaker*

As you can see we have another draw and thus also another tiebreaker. So, which opera gets your vote - *Porgy & Bess* or *War and Peace*? You have 24 hours to vote.


----------



## sospiro

Tiebreaker

Porgy & Bess


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

Porgy & Bess


----------



## jflatter

War and Peace


----------



## mamascarlatti

This is agony. They are both utterly fantastic in completely different ways.

I think I'll go for the epic.

War and Peace.


----------



## emiellucifuge

War Nd peace


----------



## World Violist

War and Peace


----------



## Webernite

War and Peace


----------



## emiellucifuge

I hope you can understand some german.


----------



## Almaviva

Porgy and Bess


----------



## Air

War and Peace


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Porgy & Bess


----------



## jhar26

War and Peace has beaten Porgy & Bess by a two point margin in our tiebreaker, so this is now our top 40

*TOP 40*

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-5 Les Troyens*
*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
*11 Die Zauberflote*
*12 Carmen*
*13 Parsifal*
*14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia*
*15 Otello*
*16 Tosca*
*17 Cosi fan Tutte*
*18 Wozzeck*
*19 Salome*
*20 Lucia di Lammermoor*
*21 Lohengrin*
*22 Eugene Onegin*
*23 Aida*
*24 Les Contes d'Hoffmann*
*25 Don Carlos*
*26 Rigoletto*
*27 Elektra*
*28 Tannhauser*
*29 L'Orfeo*
*30 Moses und Aron*
*31 Norma*
*32 Boris Godunov*
*33 Fidelio*
*34 Dido and Aeneas*
*35 La Fanciulla del West*
*36 Jenufa*
*37 War and Peace*
*38 Porgy & Bess*
*39 Lulu*
*40 Ariodante*


----------



## jhar26

*NEW NOMINATION ROUND*

Please nominate your top five choices in your order of preference. You can of course not nominate any of the operas in our top 40.


----------



## sospiro

1. Simon Boccanegra
2. Macbeth
3. Hamlet
4. Madama Butterfly
5. Ernani


----------



## jhar26

-1 Madama Butterfly (come on, what's the big idea of you guys not nominating this one? )
-2 Medée (the Charpentier opera which in my opinion is the best opera composed between the Monteverdi and Handel eras and one of the best ever) 
-3 Il Trovatore
-4 Ariadne auf Naxos
-5 Turandot (see Madama Butterfly)


----------



## emiellucifuge

Die Soldaten (PLEASE refer to the video above!!)
Madame Butterfly
Turandot
The Makropoulos case
The Bartered Bride

I may soon be approaching the end of my contribution


----------



## jflatter

Der Fliegende Hollander
Il Trovatore
Il Turco in Italia 
Simon Boccanegra
Idomeneo


----------



## Webernite

1. Castor et Pollux
2. Les Indes galantes
3. Capriccio
4. ?
5. ?

Again, anyone want to help me support something by Handel?


----------



## jflatter

Webernite said:


> 1. Castor et Pollux
> 2. Les Indes galantes
> 3. Capriccio
> 4. ?
> 5. ?
> 
> Again, anyone want to help me support something by Handel?


What about Partenope?


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Falstaff
2. Der Fliegende Holländer
3. Der Freischütz
4. Peter Grimes
5. The Bartered Bride


----------



## Webernite

jflatter said:


> What about Partenope?


Fine. And, oh heck, I'll go with Falstaff for my fifth choice. My updated list:

1. Castor et Pollux
2. Les Indes galantes
3. Capriccio
4. Partenope
5. Falstaff


----------



## Almaviva

1. La Damnation de Faust
2. Les Indes Galantes
3. Pelleas et Melisande
4. The Rake's Progress
5. La Serva Padrona

While the first four are all well known and dispense introduction, I invite you guys to give to La Serva Padrona some consideration. It's not only delightful and full of beautiful melodies, but also very important in the history of opera, for starting the opera buffa subgenre and the Querelle des Boufons. It is short, to the point, and well structured - a little gem!


----------



## mamascarlatti

*1. Hercules (Handel)*






*2. Les Indes Galantes*






*3. Incoronazione di Poppea*






*4. Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail*






*5. Werther*


----------



## Almaviva

Nice way to vote, Natalie!:tiphat:


----------



## JSK

1. Hansel and Gretel
2. Sadko
3. The Merry Wives of Windsor
4. The Bartered Bride
5. Lakme


----------



## sospiro

Almaviva said:


> Nice way to vote, Natalie!:tiphat:










No it's not. I'm trying to rein in my spending & when delicacies like these are wafted under my nose ....


----------



## Almaviva

sospiro said:


> No it's not. I'm trying to rein in my spending & when delicacies like these are wafted under my nose ....


I know what you mean. Natalie and Dark Angel are terrible!


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

*1. The Bartered Bride!
2. Cavalleria Rusticana
3. I Pagliacci
4. Il Trovatore
5. Flying Dutchman*

I think I can live with Bartered Bride missing the top-50... because I can put it down to lack of exposure (a.k.a.: ignorance). I can sort of understand that "Flying Dutchman" might be a miss because we were so generous to Wagner early on. But are we _actually_ going to compile a "recommended operas" list and leave out of the top-50: Turandot (after putting Fanciulla in the top 3-dozen) _plus_ *Cavalleria & Pagliacci?!?*


----------



## mamascarlatti

Chi_townPhilly said:


> *1. The Bartered Bride!
> 2. Cavalleria Rusticana
> 3. I Pagliacci
> 4. Il Trovatore
> 5. Flying Dutchman*
> 
> I think I can live with Bartered Bride missing the top-50... because I can put it down to lack of exposure (a.k.a.: ignorance). I can sort of understand that "Flying Dutchman" might be a miss because we were so generous to Wagner early on. But are we _actually_ going to compile a "recommended operas" list and leave out of the top-50: Turandot (after putting Fanciulla in the top 3-dozen) _plus_ *Cavalleria & Pagliacci?!?*


Well, it's a list of recommended operas, so it's quite personal. Turandot repulses me despite its music. I can't recommend somthing I have to force myself to watch.


----------



## Elgarian

For pity's sake, people! I go away for a few days and return to find you've all taken leave of your senses. Where is *Manon*, folks?

Cor blimey, then, here's my list (but it's hard getting my head round all this again after so much water has flowed under the bridge):

1. Manon! *Manon!* *Manon!*
2. Madama Butterfly
3. Alcina
4. Les Indes Galantes
5. La Rondine


----------



## Rangstrom

When this started I wrote out my top 50. Given different tastes and experiences (I have not seen many Baroque operas live and tend not to buy many either) it isn't too shocking that that the overlap is small. Still three of my top ten haven't made it yet!

1. Britten: Peter Grimes
2. Boito: Mefistofele
3. Puccini: Turandot

All of these stand up well to live performance.

4. Weber: Der Freischutz
5. Berlioz: Benvenuto Cellini (more of a personal choice/the more I listen the more I like it although I'm torn as to which version works best/Troyens may be a greater opera, but I'd rather listen to Cellini).


----------



## mamascarlatti

Elgarian said:


> For pity's sake, people! I go away for a few days and return to find you've all taken leave of your senses.


Did you do lots of lovely spending at Bath CDs, Alan?


----------



## Elgarian

mamascarlatti said:


> Did you do lots of lovely spending at Bath CDs, Alan?


You bet, Natalie! See here!


----------



## Almaviva

Rangstrom said:


> 5. Berlioz: Benvenuto Cellini (more of a personal choice/the more I listen the more I like it although I'm torn as to which version works best/Troyens may be a greater opera, but I'd rather listen to Cellini).


If I could place all four of Berlioz's operas in the top 20, I would. They are all fabulous.


----------



## Almaviva

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I think I can live with Bartered Bride missing the top-50... because I can put it down to lack of exposure (a.k.a.: ignorance).


Are you sure* ignorance* is the best choice of word here?
You know, not everybody likes the same things.
I have seen The Bartered Bride. It's nice. I like it. I can think of many other operas that I like better.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Elgarian said:


> You bet, Natalie! See here!


Loved the Pump room photo.

Interesting purchases - I'll be interested to see what you think of Edgar.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> Loved the Pump room photo.
> 
> Interesting purchases - I'll be interested to see what you think of Edgar.


I made $395 in consulting fees today for 1 hour and 20 minutes of work, totally unexpected. I told my wife I'll spend every single cent on opera DVDs or blu-rays. She can't stop me from doing it since this is extra money.

Please help me spend it. What do you recommend?


----------



## mamascarlatti

Well a year's subscription to Met Player for a start. Jus' saying.

Then go mad on your wish list. I know I could!


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> Well a year's subscription to Met Player for a start. Jus' saying.
> 
> Then go mad on your wish list. I know I could!


That's an idea!!! How much is it again for one year?


----------



## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> That's an idea!!! How much is it again for one year?


$145 I think.


----------



## Contessa

Alcina
Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
La Cenerentola
Il Turco in Italia
Simon Boccanegra


----------



## jhar26

mamascarlatti said:


> Loved the Pump room photo.
> 
> Interesting purchases - I'll be interested to see what you think of Edgar.


Same here. I'm also curious if he'll have a major breakthrough in his appreciation of Verdi thanks to that La Traviata.


----------



## Elgarian

What *I* don't *understand* is why you're all not wearing sackcloth and ashes and grovelling in shame this morning, for having so far omitted *Manon* from the list. I mean - how can we hold our collective heads up, now, in respectable company? And what would Sir Thomas Beecham have said?


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> What *I* don't *understand* is why you're all not wearing sackcloth and ashes and grovelling in shame this morning, for having so far omitted *Manon* from the list. I mean - how can we hold our collective heads up, now, in respectable company? And what would Sir Thomas Beecham have said?


Well, you've caught us with our pants down at our ankles, Alan. Maybe it would be best to delete the entire thread and to start all over again so that we'll have the chance to redeem ourselves by putting Manon in the top 10. :lol:


----------



## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> Maybe it would be best to delete the entire thread and to start all over again so that we'll have the chance to redeem ourselves by putting Manon in the top 10. :lol:


Or you could all send me free CDs and DVDs every week for a year, to make up for the personal disappointment. Both solutions would be acceptable.


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> Or you could all send me free CDs and DVDs every week for a year, to make up for the personal disappointment. Both solutions would be acceptable.


Sure. Would Susan Boyle and Andrea Bocelli CDs and DVDs do it?:devil:
If not, I can throw in some Andre Rieu.:devil:


----------



## Elgarian

Almaviva said:


> Would Susan Boyle and Andrea Bocelli CDs and DVDs do it?:devil:


I hereby promise to give up every Susan Boyle and Andrea Bocelli CD and DVD that I own, in return for your votes for _Manon_.


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> I hereby promise to give up every Susan Boyle and Andrea Bocelli CD and DVD that I own, in return for your votes for _Manon_.


Poor guy, what a sacrifice! You sure you'll not regret it?
Anyway, as long as this is the version you have in mind,










you have my vote.


----------



## Elgarian

What? Wrenched impossibly out of period? No fear. 

That settles it. I'm keeping all my Susan Boyle CDs.


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> I hereby promise to give up every Susan Boyle and Andrea Bocelli CD and DVD that I own, in return for your votes for _Manon_.


When you're making threats like that Manon is NEVER gonna get any votes.


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> What? Wrenched impossibly out of period? No fear.


Seriously - the Netrebko/Villazon Manon is very good, Alan.


----------



## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> Seriously - the Netrebko/Villazon Manon is very good, Alan.


Yes I know (you've already recommended it to me), and one day I shall probably buy it - but I couldn't turn down a chance to tease Almaviva a bit, could I? And it gave me a chance to retrieve my rash promise to give up my Susan Boyle CDs.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Elgarian said:


> What *I* don't *understand* is why you're all not wearing sackcloth and ashes and grovelling in shame this morning, for having so far omitted *Manon* from the list. I mean - how can we hold our collective heads up, now, in respectable company? And what would Sir Thomas Beecham have said?


I like Werther better. 

Seriously, it's probably due to this DVD, where the last two acts as fine as anything I've seen:










As for Manon, I'm rather keen on this version. I feel that Manon is complex, and Dessay does her justice.


----------



## jhar26

*NOMINATION ROUND RESULTS*

Madama Butterfly...4/15
Les Indes Galantes...4/14
The Bartered Bride...4/9
Der Fliegende Hollander...3/10
Il Trovatore...3/9
Simon Boccanegra...3/8 (Congrats Annie )
Turandot...3/7
Alcina...2/8
Peter Grimes...2/7
Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail...2/6
Falstaff...2/6

Those are the eleven that qualify for the next ranking vote. Eleven, because Die Enthfuhrung and Falstaff ended up with a draw. So, we will rank the top ten vote/point getters and number eleven will be automatically qualified for the ranking round of 51-60.


----------



## jhar26

*VOTING FOR POSITIONS 41-50*

Madama Butterfly
Les Indes Galantes
The Bartered Bride
Der Fliegende Hollander
Il Trovatore
Simon Boccanegra
Turandot
Alcina
Peter Grimes
Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
Falstaff

Please rank your top five choices of the above in your order of preference.


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Falstaff
2. Der Fliegende Holländer
3. Peter Grimes
4. The Bartered Bride
5. Les Indes Galantes


----------



## mamascarlatti

Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
Les Indes Galantes
The Bartered Bride
Il Trovatore
Alcina


----------



## Rangstrom

Peter Grimes
Turandot
Falstaff
Hollander
Bartered Bride


----------



## jhar26

mamascarlatti said:


> As for Manon, I'm rather keen on this version. I feel that Manon is complex, and Dessay does her justice.


I don't have the Dessay but I like both the Netrebko and Fleming DVD's of the work.


----------



## jhar26

-1 Falstaff
-2 Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
-3 Madama Butterfly
-4 Les Indes Galantes
-5 Alcina


----------



## mamascarlatti

jhar26 said:


> I don't have the Dessay but I like both the Netrebko and Fleming DVD's of the work.


I haven't seen the Fleming one but I'm not keen on Alvarez so it put me off a bit.

I like the Netrebko one too, the updating works because a starstruck Hollywood-loving Manon makes sense.


----------



## Almaviva

1. Les Indes Galantes
2. Simon Boccanegra
3. Peter Grimes
4. Il Trovatore
5. Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> Well a year's subscription to Met Player for a start. Jus' saying.
> 
> Then go mad on your wish list. I know I could!


OK, Natalie, I'm now a happy subscriber to MetPlayer.
And I have started the spending spree.
I got so far:
The Golden Cocquerel
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Medée
Louise
Moses und Aron
Le Prophète
Martha
The Pilgrim's Progress
Arabella
Atys
The new Rigoletto with Florez and Damrau
From the House of the Dead
Rienzi

But I'm still very from completing the spree, including because as a Met patron, I ended up only paying $49.99 for the MetPlayer subscription. So there's something left to continue the shopping spree. Spent so far: $302.38


----------



## Gualtier Malde

1. The bartered bride
2. Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
3. Il Trovatore
4. Turandot
5. Der fliegende Hollander


----------



## mamascarlatti

Nice haul, Alma. I keep forgetting that without postage fees your dollar goes further!

A few things that are on my wishlist:

Rienzi
L'arbore di diana (Martin Y Soler)
Red line (Salinen)
Orlando furioso (Vivaldi)
Little women (Adamo)
Merlin (Albeniz)
Clari (Halevy)
La juive (Halevy)
La gazzetta (Rossini)

or you could see what's coming up on stridonolassu's great site.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> Nice haul, Alma. I keep forgetting that without postage fees your dollar goes further!
> 
> A few things that are on my wishlist:
> 
> Rienzi
> L'arbore di diana (Martin Y Soler)
> Red line (Salinen)
> Orlando furioso (Vivaldi)
> Little women (Adamo)
> Merlin (Albeniz)
> Clari (Halevy)
> La juive (Halevy)
> La gazzetta (Rossini)
> 
> or you could see what's coming up on stridonolassu's great site.


Hehehe, you say you're going but you're still here... Husband, beware, Natalie will give up and stay behind to continue to vote!

The latest Opera News magazine praises a lot the condensed version of Rienzi (half of the score). I think I'll buy it.


----------



## Elgarian

mamascarlatti said:


> As for Manon, I'm rather keen on this version. I feel that Manon is complex, and Dessay does her justice.


More than justice. I think Dessay is astounding as Manon in that production. It's so totally satisfying that so far I haven't felt the need for another version. (Gaston, however good the Netrebko may be, you _need_ this one.)


----------



## Elgarian

1. Madama Butterfly
2. Les Indes Galantes
3. Alcina
4. Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
5. Der Fliegende Hollander

Still no _Manon_. In the top 45, there'll be no _Manon_. I'll wake up soon and discover it was all a nightmare.


----------



## sospiro

jhar26 said:


> *NOMINATION ROUND RESULTS*
> 
> Madama Butterfly...4/15
> Les Indes Galantes...4/14
> The Bartered Bride...4/9
> Der Fliegende Hollander...3/10
> Il Trovatore...3/9





> Simon Boccanegra...3/8 (Congrats Annie )














jhar26 said:


> Turandot...3/7
> Alcina...2/8
> Peter Grimes...2/7
> Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail...2/6
> Falstaff...2/6
> 
> Those are the eleven that qualify for the next ranking vote. Eleven, because Die Enthfuhrung and Falstaff ended up with a draw. So, we will rank the top ten vote/point getters and number eleven will be automatically qualified for the ranking round of 51-60.


----------



## sospiro

1. Simon Boccanegra
2. Madama Butterfly
3. Il Tovatore
3. The Bartered Bride (have watched first 17 minutes)
4. Falstaff
5. Turandot


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

*Yea!!*

I'm feelin' the love.

Lots of great choices here.:tiphat:

O.K.: 
*1. The Bartered Bride
2. Simon Boccanegra
3. The Flying Dutchman
4. Turandot
5. Madama Butterfly*


----------



## Ravellian

1. The Flying Dutchman
2. Il Trovatore
3. Madama Butterfly
4. The Bartered Bride
5. Falstaff


----------



## Elgarian

sospiro said:


> 1. Simon Boccanegra
> 2. Madama Butterfly
> 3. Il Tovatore
> 3. The Bartered Bride (have watched first 17 minutes)
> 4. Falstaff
> 5. Turandot


I predict that Annie's invention of this new way of counting is going to revolutionise these kinds of list in future. We could call it the '6 for the price of 5' method.


----------



## emiellucifuge

I dont know enough of these to vote, can i just rank my top 2 or 3?


----------



## sospiro

sorry Gaston

It's too late to edit my post so this is the amended vote

1. Simon Boccanegra
2. Madama Butterfly
3. The Bartered Bride (have watched first 17 minutes)
4. Falstaff
5. Turandot


----------



## Elgarian

sospiro said:


> It's too late to edit my post so this is the amended vote
> 
> 1. Simon Boccanegra
> 2. Madama Butterfly
> 3. The Bartered Bride (have watched first 17 minutes)
> 4. Falstaff
> 5. Turandot


I thought the old list was much more mathematically ingenious, and I was intending to use your system myself next time round....


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

I think that, regardless of how this session of voting turns out, you could take the 41-50 panel, 
the 31-40 panel, have them switch places with one another, and improve the list thereby!:devil:


----------



## jflatter

Der Flieginde Hollander
Il Trovatore
Simon Boccanegra
Falstaff
Turandot


----------



## jhar26

emiellucifuge said:


> I dont know enough of these to vote, can i just rank my top 2 or 3?


Sorry, just noticed this post just now - yes, you can.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Woohoo!

Turandot
The Bartered Bride (just been listening to those wonderful excerpts; polka, dance of the comedians...)
Der fliegende Hollander


----------



## jhar26

*RESULTS FOR POSITIONS 41-50*

The Bartered Bride...8/23
Der Fliegende Hollander...8/22
Falstaff...6/18
Turandot...6/13
Madama Butterfly...5/16
Les Indes Galantes...5/16
Die Entfuhring ause dem Serail...5/16
Il Trovatore...5/15
Simon Boccanegra...4/16
Peter Grimes...3/11

The above ten occupy positions 41-50. Alcina is qualified for the 51-60 round.

Alcina...3/5

*TIEBREAKER*

As you can see we have a three way tie - so here's another tiebreaker.

MADAMA BUTTERFLY
LES INDES GALANTES
DIE ENTFUHRUNG AUS DEM SERAIL

Which one gets your vote? You have 24 hours to vote. I'll only vote myself in case of another tie.


----------



## jflatter

Madama Butterfly


----------



## sospiro

Madama Butterfly


----------



## emiellucifuge

That one ^


----------



## Elgarian

Les Indes Galantes

[So ... there's no _Manon_ in the top 50. Do we have any credibility now, at all? _At all_?]


----------



## Webernite

Les Indes galantes


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Butterfly


Elgarian said:


> [So ... there's no _Manon_ in the top 50. Do we have any credibility now, at all? _At all_?]


I think the absence of *Cav/Pag* is more scandalous... but overall, I'm pretty happy with this panel- moreso than the previous one.


----------



## Ravellian

Butteeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrflyyyyyyyyyy


----------



## Almaviva

Les Indes Galantes


----------



## Gualtier Malde

Entfuhrung

(someone has to do it)


----------



## jhar26

*TIEBREAKER RESULT*

Madama Butterfly: 5 votes
Les Indes Galantes: 3
Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail: 1


----------



## jhar26

*TOP 50*

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-5 Les Troyens*
*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
*11 Die Zauberflote*
*12 Carmen*
*13 Parsifal*
*14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia*
*15 Otello*
*16 Tosca*
*17 Cosi fan Tutte*
*18 Wozzeck*
*19 Salome*
*20 Lucia di Lammermoor*
*21 Lohengrin*
*22 Eugene Onegin*
*23 Aida*
*24 Les Contes d'Hoffmann*
*25 Don Carlos*
*26 Rigoletto*
*27 Elektra*
*28 Tannhauser*
*29 L'Orfeo*
*30 Moses und Aron*
*31 Norma*
*32 Boris Godunov*
*33 Fidelio*
*34 Dido and Aeneas*
*35 La Fanciulla del West*
*36 Jenufa*
*37 War and Peace*
*38 Porgy & Bess*
*39 Lulu*
*40 Ariodante*
*41 The Bartered Bride
42 Der Fliegende Hollander
43 Falstaff
44 Turandot
45 Madama Butterfly
46 Les Indes Galantes
47 Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
48 Il Trovatore
49 Simon Boccanegra
50 Peter Grimes
*


----------



## jhar26

*NEW NOMINATION ROUND*

Please post your top five choices in your order of preference. You can't of course nominate any of the operas in our top 50 and neither can you vote for *Alcina* because that one is already qualified.


----------



## ChamberNut

1. Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk (Shostakovich)
2. Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Paisiello)
3. The Love of Three Oranges (Prokofiev)
4. Pelleas and Melisandes (Debussy)
5. The Rake's Progress (Stravinsky)


----------



## Webernite

1. Castor et Pollux
2. Capriccio
3. Erwartung
4. The Love of Three Oranges
5. Pelleas et Melisande


----------



## sospiro

jhar26 said:


> *TOP 50
> 
> 49 Simon Boccanegra
> 
> *


----------



## sospiro

1. Macbeth
2. Hamlet
3. Ernani
4. L'elisir d'amore
5. Andrea Chénier


----------



## jhar26

sospiro said:


>


Verdi has a big smile on his face right now, and he has you to thank for it. :tiphat:


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

1. _Mascagni_- *Cavalleria Rusticana*
2. _Leoncavallo_- *I Pagliacci*
3. _Gounod_- *Faust*
4. _Thomas_- *Mignon*
5. _Gluck_- *Orfeo ed Euridice*


----------



## Elgarian

1. *Manon*
2. *La Rondine*
3. *I Capuleti e i Montecchi*
4. *La Damnation de Faust*
5. *Proserpine* (Lully)

[_Private note to CTP_: Choice of _Mignon_ is excellent, and if _Manon_ were already in the bag I'd vote for it like a shot, but ... not, no, never, not before _Manon_. I just couldn't. If I did, my ears would drop off; I know it.]


----------



## jflatter

Un Ballo in Maschera
The Cunning Little Vixen
The Turn of the Screw
Il Turco in Italia
Idomeneo


----------



## jhar26

-1 Medée (Charpentier's baroque opera that would be in our top 40 if only more people were familiar with it.)
-2 Ariadne auf Naxos (Strauss)
-3 Manon (Massenet)
-4 The Makropulos Case (Janacek)
-5 L'Amour de Loin (Saariaho)


----------



## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> -3 Manon (Massenet)


I see you received the big box of free CDs I sent you, then?


----------



## Almaviva

1. La Damnation de Faust (this is by far the best treatment of the Faust story, and I'm pretty surprised that it hasn't made it yet). 
2. Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk District (so far and not considering R. Strauss and Puccini, it's the 20th century opera that I liked the most - granted that my knowledge of 20th century operas is a work in progress but this one is pretty spectacular)
3. Pelléas et Mélisande (Oh come on, folks, it's time to include it, dammit! It's exquisite! Not only outstanding dramatic impact - with one of the two best death scenes in all of opera, the other one being War and Peace - but also tremendously good libretto and hypnotic music)
4. The Rake's Progress - I had Adriana Lecouvreur here - another case of underestimated masterpiece - when I suddenly realized that The Rake's Progress hasn't made it yet, and this is a grave oversight! So Adriana will have to stay put for another round. Go Rake, show some progress!
5. Manon (I want those free Susan Boyle, Andrea Bocelli, and Andre Rieu CDs as well - but even without this outstanding reward kindly offered by Alan, I'd have voted for it anyway; I do like it a lot, and it puts Puccini's Manon Lescault to shame - and gives the future people who will consult our list another opportunity to see my Anna's outstanding performance as Manon!!!)


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> -1 Medée (Charpentier's baroque opera that would be in our top 40 if only more people were familiar with it.)


Well, it was part of my recent shopping spree but the CD hasn't arrived yet so I haven't listened to it therefore can't vote for it. If it gets here before the end of this project (which it should) then I may be able to support you on this.


----------



## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> -1 Medée (Charpentier's baroque opera that would be in our top 40 if only more people were familiar with it.)


I believe you. I've had the CDs sitting around, unlistened to, for ages, and I can't imagine why because I think Charpentier is The Man.


----------



## Herkku

This may appear preposterous, but I would like to participate in this thread - after the long absence from all of this! Only, I am not sure where you guys are at. I don't know if I found the correct 100 mentioned in the beginning. It certainly wasn't in Toccata's message (where a reference was found to DDD's list), but in Almaviva's. The thread is so long now that nobody cannot be expected to read it all. I began to scan it through, though, but didn't find a new list of 100 anywhere. So the project must be going on. Could somebody give me a short briefing about the goings-on? I would like to return to the flock.


----------



## jhar26

Herkku said:


> This may appear preposterous, but I would like to participate in this thread - after the long absence from all of this! Only, I am not sure where you guys are at. I don't know if I found the correct 100 mentioned in the beginning. It certainly wasn't in Toccata's message (where a reference was found to DDD's list), but in Almaviva's. The thread is so long now that nobody cannot be expected to read it all. I began to scan it through, though, but didn't find a new list of 100 anywhere. So the project must be going on. Could somebody give me a short briefing about the goings-on? I would like to return to the flock.


See posts 599 and 600 and you'll be able to participate. 

And welcome back. We've missed you! :tiphat:


----------



## sospiro

jhar26 said:


> See posts 599 and 600 and you'll be able to participate.
> 
> And welcome back. We've missed you! :tiphat:












Second that!! Welcome back!!


----------



## Elgarian

Herkku said:


> Could somebody give me a short briefing about the goings-on?


I love this optimistic idea that we know what's going on. When you've followed Gaston's advice and mastered posts 599 and 600, perhaps you could explain to us what we've been doing all this time? I mean, I just keep making little lists and posting them, and waiting for someone to shout at me ...


----------



## sospiro

Elgarian said:


> I love this optimistic idea that we know what's going on. When you've followed Gaston's advice and mastered posts 599 and 600, perhaps you could explain to us what we've been doing all this time? I mean, I just keep making little lists and posting them, and waiting for someone to shout at me ...


:lol:

and we're expected to post five favourites but for some reason I put six & it was ages before anyone noticed


----------



## Herkku

So, it's five more added to the 50 list. Am I getting it right? Let me think.


----------



## jhar26

Herkku said:


> So, it's five more added to the 50 list. Am I getting it right? Let me think.


We have two rounds of voting for each bracket of ten. We first settled positions 1 to 10, after that positions 11 to 20, and so on. We're now at a point where positions 1 to 50 are in place and at this stage we're thus voting for positions 51 to 60.

The way we do this is:
-1 Each of us nominates the five operas that he or she thinks are 'the best' of those that are not ranked in the top 50.

After everyone has voted I start counting and the 10 with the most votes move on to the next phase.

-2 Everyone ranks their five faves of the list of ten that we've nominated. The one with the most votes will be our number 51, the one with the second most votes our number 52, and so on.

Confused? No reason to worry, Alan will be glad to answer any further questions you may have.


----------



## Elgarian

sospiro said:


> and we're expected to post five favourites but for some reason I put six


I still believe that you'd made the technical breakthrough we'd all been waiting for. But would anybody listen?


----------



## sospiro

Elgarian said:


> I still believe that you'd made the technical breakthrough we'd all been waiting for. But would anybody listen?


Well actually somebody did. That somebody being CTP aka Eric (is he The Phantom?) but I couldn't possibly reveal what he suggested.


----------



## Herkku

OK. First of all, the title of the thread is "The TC 100 Top-RECOMMENDED Operas Project" but in the body text of the first message "the 100 greatest operas in history" are mentioned. Is there a difference?

If I assume it's the latter and perusing a few pages back, my five are:

1. Ariadne auf Naxos (R. Strauss)
2. Faust (Gounod)
3. Werther (Massenet)
4. La clemenza di Tito (Mozart)
5. Medea/Médée (Cherubini)

It's difficult. There is so much more, but Die Königin von Saba by Goldmark probably wouln't win... Looking back just a few pages I don't know if the last three have been dismissed already. What's there is to lose, anyway?

P.S. If it's the first, to whom would you recommend Moses und Aron?


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> -1 Medée (Charpentier's baroque opera that would be in our top 40 if only more people were familiar with it.)
> -2 Ariadne auf Naxos (Strauss)
> -3 Manon (Massenet)
> -4 The Makropulos Case (Janacek)
> -5 L'Amour de Loin (Saariaho)


OK, my Medée has arrived with lightening speed, I need to remember to give positive feedback to the Amazon marketplace vendor. So given the long weekend, I'll probably be listening to it soon and be all equipped to support you if I like it. Oh wait, it depends on what you offer me. Hmm... what can you do for my favorite operas in exchange?


----------



## Almaviva

Herkku said:


> OK. First of all, the title of the thread is "The TC 100 Top-RECOMMENDED Operas Project" but in the body text of the first message "the 100 greatest operas in history" are mentioned. Is there a difference?
> 
> If I assume it's the latter and perusing a few pages back, my five are:
> 
> 1. Ariadne auf Naxos (R. Strauss)
> 2. Faust (Gounod)
> 3. Werther (Massenet)
> 4. La clemenza di Tito (Mozart)
> 5. Medea/Médée (Cherubini)
> 
> It's difficult. There is so much more, but Die Königin von Saba by Goldmark probably wouln't win... Looking back just a few pages I don't know if the last three have been dismissed already. What's there is to lose, anyway?
> 
> P.S. If it's the first, to whom would you recommend Moses und Aron?


Well, after a relatively long discussion, we have decided that "best" or "greatest" are elusive concepts, too subjective, can't really be defined. Who are we to actually pretend that these operas are "best" or "greater" than someone else's favorites? So we have decided to settle for "recommended" in the sense that we, as a collective entity, recommend these operas as worthy operas to explore. The difference in nomenclature for some of the posts refers to different phases of this debate. At some point we've all decided that we'd go for "recommended" and we've been doing it ever since.

Like others said, welcome back to the flock. You were here before my time (I've joined recently, in August) but while browsing the forum to get acquainted with it I bumped into your M22 reviews and very much enjoyed them (and since, I've purchased the box set), and kept asking people - what happened to this nice member Herkku? Nobody had a precise answer... At one point I though you had died, LOL. Now I see that reports of your demise were greatly exaggerated.

I'm really glad that you're back, your reviews are fabulous, keep them coming!

Oh, and you have a good point about Moses und Aron, LOL! (I'm saying it from reputation. I haven't listened to it yet, but I did order it and am waiting for it in the mail).


----------



## Gualtier Malde

Elgarian said:


> I love this optimistic idea that we know what's going on.


I was afraid to ask originally, but I'm getting bolder now and I'm really curious about the secret code that is being used in post #588: What exactly does 8/23, 8/22 etc. signify (probably not dates or fractions)?


----------



## Almaviva

Gualtier Malde said:


> I was afraid to ask originally, but I'm getting bolder now and I'm really curious about the secret code that is being used in post #588: What exactly does 8/23, 8/22 etc. signify (probably not dates or fractions)?


Number of votes, and number of points.
If you nominate an opera, it gets one vote. If you nominate it in first place in your batch of five, it gets 5 points, second gets 4 points, etc. Points are used for tie-breaking purposes.

We should start a thread:

"Everything you've always wanted to know about the TC Top 100 Recommended Operas thread but were afraid to ask."

Then we'd sell the rights to Woody Allen.


----------



## World Violist

Almaviva said:


> We should start a thread:
> 
> "Everything you've always wanted to know about the TC Top 100 Recommended Operas thread but were afraid to ask."
> 
> Then we'd sell the rights to Woody Allen.


That is the most brilliant idea I've heard all week, and let me tell you I've heard several brilliant ideas this week.

Just saying.


----------



## Almaviva

World Violist said:


> That is the most brilliant idea I've heard all week, and let me tell you I've heard several brilliant ideas this week.
> 
> Just saying.


Uhoh... is this sarcasm?


----------



## Elgarian

Almaviva said:


> Oh wait, it depends on what you offer me. Hmm... what can you do for my favorite operas in exchange?


In future years this will be the moment historians will identify as the beginning of the corruption that led to the Great Opera Wars of 2011.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Almaviva said:


> Well, after a relatively long discussion, we have decided that "best" or "greatest" are elusive concepts, too subjective, can't really be defined. Who are we to actually pretend that these operas are "best" or "greater" than someone else's favorites? So we have decided to settle for "recommended" in the sense that we, as a collective entity, recommend these operas as worthy operas to explore.


Let me just say that this is a GREAT point to make.

At various times in the thread, I've withheld nominating my choices for favorite, or even (if I could even presume to judge such a thing) my choices for greatest, and have instead nominated operas which I thought are recommend_able_, in the sense that knowledge of them is important in the larger context of the operatic aesthetic and operatic history.


----------



## Herkku

That is just what I qestioned. Are we collecting a list of operas people should hear/see or a list of operas we like?


----------



## Elgarian

Herkku said:


> That is just what I qestioned. Are we collecting a list of operas people should hear/see or a list of operas we like?


I think we're saying:

"We've gone through this quite complicated process thoughtfully, and we don't really know exactly how or why we're voting the way we do, beyond the fact that we find value in these operas we're naming; and by putting our votes together collectively like this, we've arrived at some sort of consensus about which operas are most likely to reward careful watching and listening."

I think we're each having our best shot, each probably using different personal criteria, and then trusting to the process to smooth out the rough spots.


----------



## danslenoir

After you've decided the 100 you'll have to start another project to identify the TC definitive recorded performance for each one :lol:


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> OK, my Medée has arrived with lightening speed, I need to remember to give positive feedback to the Amazon marketplace vendor. So given the long weekend, I'll probably be listening to it soon and be all equipped to support you if I like it. Oh wait, it depends on what you offer me. Hmm... what can you do for my favorite operas in exchange?


Depends on what your favorite operas are.


----------



## jhar26

danslenoir said:


> After you've decided the 100 you'll have to start another project to identify the TC definitive recorded performance for each one :lol:


Good idea.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Depends on what your favorite operas are.


Oh, you know, simple stuff like _Libuse. _I'm sure you love it too.:devil:


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Oh, you know, simple stuff like _Libuse. _I'm sure you love it too.:devil:


Oh yeah, that Smetana masterpiece you told me about the other day.


----------



## jhar26

*NOMINATION ROUND RESULTS*

Manon...3/9
Pelleas et Melisande...3/6
Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk...2/9
Ariadne auf Naxos...2/9
Faust...2/7
La Damnation de Faust...2/7
The Love of Three Oranges...2/5
The Rake's Progress...2/3

All the other operas we voted for only got one nomination.

*VOTING FOR POSITIONS 51-59*

Alcina
Manon
Pelleas et Melisande
Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
Ariadne auf Naxos
Faust
La Damnation de Faust
The Love of Three Oranges
The Rake's Progress

Please post your top five choices of the above 9 operas in your order of preference.


----------



## Almaviva

I think that we should vote for the nine and then for the next chunk go for positions 60 through 70 (11 positions) instead of automatically qualifying several operas that got only one vote. People would be able to resubmit them for additional consideration. Like I said before, it bothers me that our "collective" recommendation will have operas recommended by just one member getting automatic qualification. Don't read me wrong, all of these who got one vote are fine operas and I have no problem supporting them, it's more of a process objection.


----------



## sospiro

1. Macbeth
2. Un ballo in maschera
3. Cavelleria Rusticana
4. Manon
5. Pelléas et Mélisande


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> I think that we should vote for the nine and then for the next chunk go for positions 60 through 70 (11 positions) instead of automatically qualifying several operas that got only one vote. People would be able to resubmit them for additional consideration. Like I said before, it bothers me that our "collective" recommendation will have operas recommended by just one member getting automatic qualification. Don't read me wrong, all of these who got one vote are fine operas and I have no problem supporting them, it's more of a process objection.


When I had finished counting I actually considered calling it quits and stick with the top 50. In every nomination round people are voting for a wider range of operas and it wouldn't surprise me if one or two rounds from now there will be only three or four operas that get more than one vote. It's very unlikely that next time there will be eleven.


----------



## emiellucifuge

1. Pelleas et Melisande
2. Lady macbeth of Mstsensk
3. Love of three oranges
4. -
5. -


----------



## sospiro

emiellucifuge said:


> 1. Pelleas et Melisande
> 2. Lady macbeth of Mstsensk
> 3. Love of three oranges
> 4. -
> 5. -


Macbeth, Macbeth, Macbeth


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> When I had finished counting I actually considered calling it quits and stick with the top 50. In every nomination round people are voting for a wider range of operas and it wouldn't surprise me if one or two rounds from now there will be only three or four operas that get more than one vote. It's very unlikely that next time there will be eleven.


Bummer! You may be right. I still hope we'll get to a meaningful top 100, but it will be more and more difficult. It looks like our opera-loving community here is still too small. But there are more people joining... Herkku is back, full of ideas. I wish we could still have Natalie, the top 100 will likely be over when she comes back from her vacation. In any case, your idea of revising the list yearly may pay off, once more opera-loving folks join the forum to increase the pool of voters and prevent this effect.

OK, then, I lift my objection, and will proceed with my vote. There are still so many good operas left out, it will be a shame if we can't get to 100.


----------



## emiellucifuge

sospiro said:


> Macbeth, Macbeth, Macbeth




:devil:


----------



## Almaviva

But then, Gaston, there is another problem. Look, if all operas that were nominated made it to this new vote, why have the new vote? People have already voted for their top 5 in this same context. Since all five of everybody's top five are included in this new list for voting consideration, the only way to be coherent would be to repeat the same vote. In my case it was:

1. La Damnation de Faust 
2. Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk District 
3. Pelléas et Mélisande 
4. The Rake's Progress 
5. Manon

That's basically why it would have been better to just rank the top nine from 50 to 59 and let people resubmit.

If we proceed like this, we may have trouble finishing the top 100, but maybe not. Maybe we'll select 8 for the next round... 6 for the subsequent round... 4 later... (that would get us to 77). But we'll be waiting for operas to make at least two nominations even if it goes dwindling more and more. New members may join and keep voting, and eventually we'll get to 100. And people can advocate for their suggestions and convince at least another person to support that choice. It will make the project longer, but more meaningful.


----------



## Gualtier Malde

1. Ariadne
2. Faust
3. Manon
4. Cavalleria Rusticana
5. Ballo


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> But then, Gaston, there is another problem. Look, if all operas that were nominated made it to this new vote, why have the new vote? People have already voted for their top 5 in this same context. Since all five of everybody's top five are included in this new list for voting consideration, the only way to be coherent would be to repeat the same vote. In my case it was:
> 
> 1. La Damnation de Faust
> 2. Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk District
> 3. Pelléas et Mélisande
> 4. The Rake's Progress
> 5. Manon
> 
> That's basically why it would have been better to just rank the top nine from 50 to 59 and let people resubmit.
> 
> If we proceed like this, we may have trouble finishing the top 100, but maybe not. Maybe we'll select 8 for the next round... 6 for the subsequent round... 4 later... (that would get us to 77). But we'll be waiting for operas to make at least two nominations even if it goes dwindling more and more. New members may join and keep voting, and eventually we'll get to 100. And people can advocate for their suggestions and convince at least another person to support that choice. It will make the project longer, but more meaningful.


Ok, no problem.  So, everyone who has already voted - please vote again.


----------



## Webernite

1. Pelleas et Melisande
2. The Love of Three Oranges
3. Alcina
4. Ariadne 
5. -


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Ok, no problem.  So, everyone who has already voted - please vote again.


What?

Ah, OK, I hadn't noticed that you have edited your voting post.

OK, so, we're supposed to vote again for our five preferred ones among these nine:

Alcina
Manon
Pelleas et Melisande
Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
Ariadne auf Naxos
Faust
La Damnation de Faust
The Love of Three Oranges
The Rake's Progress

Mine are:

1. La Damnation de Faust 
2. Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk District 
3. Pelléas et Mélisande 
4. The Rake's Progress 
5. Manon

(It's the same vote I had already entered, to remain coherent, since all my five made it)


----------



## Herkku

Ariadne auf Naxos
Faust
Alcina
The Rake's Progress
Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk


----------



## sospiro

jhar26 said:


> Ok, no problem.  So, everyone who has already voted - please vote again.












Five different ones from the same list?

so mine would be

1. Macbeth
2. Un ballo in maschera
3. Cavelleria Rusticana
4. Manon
5. Pelléas et Mélisande

then another (different) five?

6.
7.
8. 
9.
10.


----------



## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> Alcina
> Manon
> Pelleas et Melisande
> Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
> Ariadne auf Naxos
> Faust
> La Damnation de Faust
> The Love of Three Oranges
> The Rake's Progress
> 
> Please post your top five choices of the above 9 operas in your order of preference.


I keep looking at this list; and then I keep seeing that some folks have voted for _Un Ballo_, and _Cavalleria Rusticana_; and so my head keeps falling off. Where are _Un Ballo_ and _Cav_ coming from?

If we're choosing from the above list of 9, then I choose:
1. Manon
2. Alcina
3. La Damnation de Faust
4. Ariadne auf Naxos
5. Pelleas et Melisande

But if we can drag new ones in then I want to scratch this list and have another go.

:trp: "I'm a Teapot! I'm a Teapot!" :trp:


----------



## jhar26

-1 Ariadne auf Naxos
-2 Alcina
-3 Manon
-4 Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
-5 Faust


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> I keep looking at this list; and then I keep seeing that some folks have voted for _Un Ballo_, and _Cavalleria Rusticana_; and so my head keeps falling off. Where are _Un Ballo_ and _Cav_ coming from?
> 
> If we're choosing from the above list of 9, then I choose:
> 1. Manon
> 2. Alcina
> 3. La Damnation de Faust
> 4. Ariadne auf Naxos
> 5. Pelleas et Melisande
> 
> But if we can drag new ones in then I want to scratch this list and have another go.
> 
> :trp: "I'm a Teapot! I'm a Teapot!" :trp:


I know what you mean. The whole thread looks messier with each passing day. Next time I'll just ask for everyone's top 40 and add up those votes and points. We won't have the problem of key members not being able to contribute at various stages of the game, people won't have to choose from lists of nominations - half of the operas from which the're not familiar with, more people will vote because they will understand what is going on (sometimes I'm beginning to wonder myself), it will all be over in four or five days and the end result will be as good or better as what we have now.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> I know what you mean. The whole thread looks messier with each passing day. Next time I'll just ask for everyone's top 40 and add up those votes and points. We won't have the problem of key members not being able to contribute at various stages of the game, people won't have to choose from lists of nominations - half of the operas from which the're not familiar with, more people will vote because they will understand what is going on (sometimes I'm beginning to wonder myself), it will all be over in four or five days and the end result will be as good or better as what we have now.


It will have to be top 41 out of the top 59. Not an easy vote. I'm afraid people won't vote because it's too much work to think of and list 41 favorite operas at the exclusion of the first 59. I think that proceeding by chunks will yield a better chance of getting it done.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> It will have to be top 41 out of the top 59. Not an easy vote. I'm afraid people won't vote because it's too much work to think of and list 41 favorite operas at the exclusion of the first 59. I think that proceeding by chunks will yield a better chance of getting it done.


I mean the next time we do a top 100. Say, one year from now.


----------



## sospiro

Gaston

Do I need to vote for another five?


----------



## jhar26

sospiro said:


> Gaston
> 
> Do I need to vote for another five?


Yes, the list of possible choices has been shortened from 14 to 9. Please see post number 635.


----------



## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> I mean the next time we do a top 100. Say, one year from now.


I suppose that's how long it will take you to recover from the trauma and settle the medical bills?


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> I suppose that's how long it will take you to recover from the trauma and settle the medical bills?


No, that will take only six months. The other six months will be for the settlement of the lawsuits started by disgruntled fans of operas that didn't make it.:devil:


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> I suppose that's how long it will take you to recover from the trauma and settle the medical bills?


My shrink tells me that by the time he'll be through with me he'll be able to buy a new sports car.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> No, that will take only six months. The other six months will be for the settlement of the lawsuits started by disgruntled fans of operas that didn't make it.:devil:


Six months from now we'll still be looking for operas to get two nominations in order to complete our top 100.


----------



## Herkku

You seem to have gotten the first 50 together in less than a moth. So, let's do the rest and we should be ready for Christmas!


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

1. Faust
2. Manon
3. Damnation of Faust
4. Love for Three Oranges
5. Ariadne auf Naxos


----------



## jhar26

Herkku said:


> You seem to have gotten the first 50 together in less than a moth. So, let's do the rest and we should be ready for Christmas!


Just in time to place an order of those operas that are still missing from our collection! :lol:


----------



## Almaviva

Herkku said:


> You seem to have gotten the first 50 together in less than a moth. So, let's do the rest and we should be ready for Christmas!


It does get more difficult, because at the beggining operas were gathering 8-10 votes and now they're gathering 1-2, as the field spreads out to less popular works. But I'm confident that we may be able to reach the 100, even if we get to do it the same way the cardinals vote for the pope... repeating the vote untill some operas make the necessary number of nominations.


----------



## jflatter

La Damnation de Faust
Manon
Pelleas et Melisande
Lady Macbeth
Ariadne auf Naxos


----------



## sospiro

1. Manon
2. Pelléas et Mélisande
3. Ariadne auf Naxos
4. La Damnation de Faust
5. The Rake's Progress


----------



## Herkku

I'm not sure if I did vote again or not. So here goes:

Ariadne auf Naxos
Faust
Alcina
The Rake's Progress
Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk


----------



## Gualtier Malde

Almaviva said:


> The other six months will be for the settlement of the lawsuits started by disgruntled fans of operas that didn't make it.:devil:


Exactly. What kind of conspiracy kicked Hansel und Gretel out of the Top 60, when it should clearly be in the Top 20 or so.

But I guess we'll just keep voting until the desired result has been reached.


----------



## jhar26

Gualtier Malde said:


> Exactly. What kind of conspiracy kicked Hansel und Gretel out of the Top 60, when it should clearly be in the Top 20 or so.
> 
> But I guess we'll just keep voting until the desired result has been reached.


BTW - I see that Cavalleria and Ballo are still on your top five. It's part of our conspiracy to keep them out of the top 60, so would you care to edit your top five?


----------



## Herkku

Oh, now I can see that this could take a little longer than I estimated. Hänsel und Gretel? Why not Königskinder? Nothing against H&G, though. And where is Schwanda, the Bagpiper, anyway?


----------



## Gualtier Malde

jhar26 said:


> BTW - I see that Cavalleria and Ballo are still on your top five. It's part of our conspiracy to keep them out of the top 60, so would you care to edit your top five?


This *is* getting complicated.

I'll still go with

1. Ariadne auf Naxos
2. Faust
3. Manon

and I sell my other two votes to the highest bidder (private message please).

*Go, Hansel und Gretel, go!!*


----------



## jhar26

*VOTING FOR POSITIONS 51-59 RESULT*

Ariadne auf Naxos...8/21
Manon...7/23
Pelleas et Melisande...6/18
La Damnation de Faust...5/18
Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk...5/11
Alcina...4/13
Faust...4/12
The Love for Three Oranges...3/6
The Rake's Progress...3/5


----------



## jhar26

*TOP 59*

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-5 Les Troyens*
*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
*11 Die Zauberflote*
*12 Carmen*
*13 Parsifal*
*14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia*
*15 Otello*
*16 Tosca*
*17 Cosi fan Tutte*
*18 Wozzeck*
*19 Salome*
*20 Lucia di Lammermoor*
*21 Lohengrin*
*22 Eugene Onegin*
*23 Aida*
*24 Les Contes d'Hoffmann*
*25 Don Carlos*
*26 Rigoletto*
*27 Elektra*
*28 Tannhauser*
*29 L'Orfeo*
*30 Moses und Aron*
*31 Norma*
*32 Boris Godunov*
*33 Fidelio*
*34 Dido and Aeneas*
*35 La Fanciulla del West*
*36 Jenufa*
*37 War and Peace*
*38 Porgy & Bess*
*39 Lulu*
*40 Ariodante*
*41 The Bartered Bride
42 Der Fliegende Hollander
43 Falstaff
44 Turandot
45 Madama Butterfly
46 Les Indes Galantes
47 Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
48 Il Trovatore
49 Simon Boccanegra
50 Peter Grimes
51 Ariadne auf Naxos
52 Manon
53 Pelleas et Melisande
54 La Damnation de Faust
55 Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
56 Alcina
57 Faust
58 The Love for Three Oranges
59 The Rake's Progress
*


----------



## jhar26

*NOMINATION ROUND FOR POSITIONS 60-70*

Since it increases the chance that more operas will get nominated by more than one person everyone will now be allowed to nominate their *TOP 10* choices. If you can't make it to ten, no problem. Just list as many as you can. Don't forget to put them in your order of preference. And you can't of course list any from our top 59.


----------



## jhar26

-1 Medée (Charpentier)
-2 L'Incoronasione di Poppea (Monteverdi)
-3 Bluebeard's Castle (Bartok)
-4 The Makropulos Case (Janacek)
-5 Orphée et Eurydice (Gluck)
-6 L'Amour de Loin (Saariaho)
-7 Rusalka (Dvorak)
-8 La Forza del Destino (Verdi)
-9 Gianni Schicchi (Puccini)
10 Idomeneo (Mozart)


----------



## Webernite

1. Castor et Pollux
2. Erwartung
3. The Fiery Angel
4. Les Boréades
5. Les Paladins

...I can't think of any more.


----------



## sospiro

-1. Macbeth
-2. Hamlet
-3. Ernani
-4. L'elisir d'amore
-5. Andrea Chénier 
-6. Attila
-7. La Sonnambula
-8. Mefistofele
-9. Un ballo in maschera
10. Roméo et Juliette


----------



## Gualtier Malde

1. *HANSEL UND GRETEL* (Humperdinck)
2. Zar und Zimmermann (Lortzing)
3. Orfeo ed Euridice (Gluck)
4. Die Frau ohne Schatten (Strauss)
5. Capriccio (Strauss)
6. Le Postillon de Lonjumeau (Adam)
7. Fra Diavolo (Auber)

(OK, I admit, I don't know more than the tenor's aria from 6., but doesn't it deserve your vote just for this.)


----------



## JSK

1. Hansel and Gretel (Humperdinck)
2. Sadko (Rimsky-Korsakov)
3. Lakme (Delibes)
4. The Merry Wives of Windsor (Nicolai)
5. Der Freischutz (Weber)
6. Hary Janos (Koday) - if this counts as an opera
7. Orfeo ed Euridice (Gluck)
8. Prince Igor (Borodin)
9. May Night (Rimsky-Korsakov)
10. The Golden Cockerel (Rimsky-Korsakov)

I intentionally biased this list towards the Russians, but I'd only be disappointed if Sadko didn't make it.


----------



## Almaviva

1. Bluebeard's Castle
2. Cavalleria Rusticana
3. Euryanthe
4. Idomeneo
5. Benvenuto Cellini
6. Arabella
7. Adriana Lecouvreur
8. Les Pêcheurs de Perles
9. Pique Dame (a.k.a. The Queen of Spades)
10. La Serva Padrona


----------



## Elgarian

1. La Rondine
2. Suor Angelica
3. I Capuleti e i Montecchi (Bellini)
4. Cendrillon (Massenet)
5. Mignon (Thomas)
6. Romeo et Juliette (Gounod)
7. Proserpine (Lully)
8. Cadmus & Hermione (Lully)
9. Louise (Charpentier)
10. Sapho (Massenet)


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

1. *Cavalleria Rusticana*- Mascagni
2. *Pagliacci*- Leoncavallo (the non-support for 'Pag' is approaching surreal status)
3. *Orfeo ed Euridice*- Gluck
4. *Mignon*- Thomas (probably in my top 2-dozen for 'favorites,' but couldn't honestly nominate it prior to the '50' spot)
5. *L'Incoronazione di Poppea*- Monteverdi
6. *La Forza del Destino*- Verdi
7. *Der Freischutz*- Weber
8. *L'Elisir d'Amore*- Donizetti
9. *La Rondine*- Puccini
10. *Rienzi*- Wagner


----------



## Herkku

I must be really obtuse, but help me out, again! There is not a list of 100 from which I could choose (barring the 59 already nominated), but I can vote for any opera that happens to come into my mind?


----------



## ShyBelgian

1. *Samson et Dalila* - Saint-Saëns
2. *Mona Lisa* - Schillings
3. *Cardillac *- Hindemith
4. *Die Königin von Saba* - Goldmark
5. *Orlando* - Händel
6. *Jonny spielt auf* - Krenek
7.* Le Grand Macabre* - Ligeti
8. *L'Enfant et les Sortilèges* - Ravel
9. *Le Comte Ory* - Rossini
10. *La Forza del Destino* - Verdi


----------



## jhar26

Herkku said:


> I must be really obtuse, but help me out, again! There is not a list of 100 from which I could choose (barring the 59 already nominated), but I can vote for any opera that happens to come into my mind?


Yes, you can nominate ANY opera you want, except for those in the top 59.


----------



## Herkku

1. I Puritani - Bellini
2. Medea - Cherubini
3. L'Elisir d'Amore - Donizetti
4. La Cenerentola - Rossini
5. Maria Stuarda - Donizetti
6. Mosè in Egitto -Rossini
7. L'Italiana in Algeri - Rossini
8. Anna Bolena - Donizetti
9. La Fille du Régiment - Donizetti
10. Die Königin von Saba - Goldmark


----------



## jflatter

Idomeneo
Un Ballo in Maschera
Il Turco in Italia
The Turn of the Screw 
Rusalka 
Hansel und Gretel
la Cenerentola
Capriccio
Gianni Schicchi
Bluebeards Castle


----------



## Webernite

Oh, I forgot about Capriccio. Can I edit my post?


----------



## jhar26

Webernite said:


> Oh, I forgot about Capriccio. Can I edit my post?


Sure, no problem.


----------



## Webernite

Webernite said:


> 1. Castor et Pollux
> 2. Erwartung
> 3. The Fiery Angel
> 4. Les Boréades
> 5. Les Paladins
> 
> ...I can't think of any more.


It won't let me edit, so here's my new list:

1. Castor et Pollux
2. Erwartung
3. Capriccio
4. The Fiery Angel
5. Les Boréades
6. Les Paladins
7. Orlando 
8. Daphne


----------



## jhar26

*NOMINATION ROUND RESULTS and NEXT VOTING ROUND*

All of these operas got more than one vote. Please post your *TOP FIVE* choices of these operas in your order of preference.

Orphée et Eurydice...4/23
Hansel und Gretel...3/22
Bluebeard's Castle...3/19
L'Elisir D'Amore...3/18
Idomeneo...3/18
Capriccio...3/12
La Forza del Destino...3/9
Cavalleria Rusticana...2/19
L'Incoronasione di Poppea...2/15
Mignon...2/13
La Rondine...2/12
Un Ballo in Maschera...2/11
La Cenerentola...2/11
Rusalka...2/10
Der Freischutz...2/10
Orlando...2/8
Die Konigin von Saba...2/8
Romeo et Juliette...2/6
Gianni Schicchi...2/4


----------



## jhar26

-1 L'Incoronasione di Poppea
-2 Bluebeard's Castle
-3 Cavalleria Rusticana
-4 Idomeneo
-5 Orphée et Eurydice


----------



## sospiro

1. Un ballo in maschera
2. Cavelleria Rusticana
3. L'elisir d'amore
4. La cenerentola
5. La forza del destino


----------



## emiellucifuge

1. Bluebeards Castle
2.
3.
4.
5.


----------



## Webernite

1. Capriccio
2. Orlando
3. Idomeneo


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Der Freischütz
2. Bluebeard's Castle
3. Orphée et Eurydice
4. L'incoronazione di Poppea
5. Cavalleria Rusticana


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

1. *Cavalleria Rusticana*- Mascagni
2. *Orfeo ed Euridice*- Gluck
3. *Mignon*- Thomas 
4. *L'Incoronazione di Poppea*- Monteverdi
5. *La Forza del Destino*- Verdi


----------



## Rangstrom

1. Bluebeard
2. Freischutz
3. Orphee (does this include the Italian version?)
4. Poppea
5. Rusalka


----------



## jflatter

Idomeneo
Un Ballo in Maschera
Rusalka
Hansel un Gretel
La Cenerentola

What does nobody like Il Turco in Italia???


----------



## Almaviva

1. Bluebeard's Castle
2. Cavalleria Rusticana
3. Orphée et Eurydice
4. Idomeneo
5. L'Elisir d'Amore


----------



## Gualtier Malde

1. Der Freischutz
2. Hansel und Gretel
3. L'Elisir d'amore
4. Orphee et Eurydice
5. Capriccio


----------



## Elgarian

1. La Rondine
2. Romeo et Juliette
3. Mignon
4. Idomeneo
5. Orlando


----------



## Herkku

L'Elisir D'Amore
Gianni Schicchi
Die Konigin von Saba
Idomeneo
La Cenerentola


----------



## jhar26

Rangstrom said:


> 3. Orphee (does this include the Italian version?)


Yes, I suppose it does...


----------



## jhar26

*RESULTS*

These eight operas have earned themselves a place in our top 100

Orphée et Eurydice...6/16
Idomeneo...6/14
Bluebeard's Castle...5/19
Cavalleria Rusticana...5/17
L'Elisir D'Amore...4/15
L'Incoronasione di Poppea...4/11
Der Freischutz...3/14
La Cenerentola...3/4

Since the other operas failed to get more than one or two votes, and since we want maximum support for the operas that end up in our top 100 I think it's best to limit ourselves to the above eight at this point.


----------



## jhar26

*TOP 67*

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-5 Les Troyens*
*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
*11 Die Zauberflote*
*12 Carmen*
*13 Parsifal*
*14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia*
*15 Otello*
*16 Tosca*
*17 Cosi fan Tutte*
*18 Wozzeck*
*19 Salome*
*20 Lucia di Lammermoor*
*21 Lohengrin*
*22 Eugene Onegin*
*23 Aida*
*24 Les Contes d'Hoffmann*
*25 Don Carlos*
*26 Rigoletto*
*27 Elektra*
*28 Tannhauser*
*29 L'Orfeo*
*30 Moses und Aron*
*31 Norma*
*32 Boris Godunov*
*33 Fidelio*
*34 Dido and Aeneas*
*35 La Fanciulla del West*
*36 Jenufa*
*37 War and Peace*
*38 Porgy & Bess*
*39 Lulu*
*40 Ariodante*
*41 The Bartered Bride
42 Der Fliegende Hollander
43 Falstaff
44 Turandot
45 Madama Butterfly
46 Les Indes Galantes
47 Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
48 Il Trovatore
49 Simon Boccanegra
50 Peter Grimes
51 Ariadne auf Naxos
52 Manon
53 Pelleas et Melisande
54 La Damnation de Faust
55 Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
56 Alcina
57 Faust
58 The Love for Three Oranges
59 The Rake's Progress
60 Orphée et Eurydice
61 Idomeneo
62 Bluebeard's Castle
63 Cavalleria Rusticana
64 L'Elisir D'Amore
65 L'Incoronasione di Poppea
66 Der Freischutz
67 La Cenerentola
*


----------



## jhar26

*NEXT NOMINATION ROUND*

Please nominate your *TOP 10* choices. You can nominate any opera you want, except for those in the top 67 of course. If you can't make it to ten - no problem, list as many as you're familiar with and like.


----------



## jhar26

-1 Medée (Charpentier)
-2 The Makropulos Case (Janacek)
-3 L'Amour de Loin (Saariaho)
-4 Die Frau ohne Schatten (Strauss)
-5 Gianni Schicchi (Puccini)
-6 Rusalka (Dvorak)
-7 La Forza del Destino (Verdi)
-8 Hansel und Gretel (Humperdinck)
-9 Armide (Lully)
10 Pagliacci (Leoncavallo)


----------



## Webernite

Webernite said:


> 1. Castor et Pollux
> 2. Erwartung
> 3. Capriccio
> 4. The Fiery Angel
> 5. Les Boréades
> 6. Les Paladins
> 7. Orlando
> 8. Daphne


I choose all these again.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

1. *Pagliacci*- Leoncavallo
2. *Mignon*- Thomas
3. *La Forza del Destino*- Verdi
4. *La Rondine*- Puccini
5. *Rienzi*- Wagner
6. *L'Enfant et les Sortilèges*- Ravel
7. *Capriccio*- R. Strauss
8. *Prince Igor*- Borodin
9. *Hansel & Gretel*- Humperdinck
10. *Iphigéne en Tauride*- Gluck


----------



## emiellucifuge

Its looking good isnt it?


----------



## jhar26

emiellucifuge said:


> Its looking good isnt it?


Yes, no complaints. It's a struggle, but we'll get there.


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Einstein On the Beach (Glass)
2. Pagliacci (Leoncavallo)
3. The Turn of the Screw (Britten)
4. Hänsel und Gretel (Humperdinck)
5. Samson et Dalila (Saint-Saëns)
6. The Cunning Little Vixen (Janáček)
7. Nixon in China (Adams)
8. Nabucco (Verdi)
9. Le Grande Macabre (Ligeti)
10. Euryanthe (Weber)


----------



## Rangstrom

Boito Mefistofele
Dvorak Rusalka
Rimsky-Korsakov Coq d'Or
Berlioz Cellini
Borodin Prince Igor
Stravinsky Oedipus Rex
Britten Midsummer Night's Dream


----------



## Almaviva

1. Euryanthe
2. Benvenuto Cellini
3. Arabella
4. Adriana Lecouvreur
5. Les Pêcheurs de Perles
6. Pique Dame (a.k.a. The Queen of Spades)
7. La Serva Padrona 
8. L'Amour de Loin
9. L'Enfant et les Sortilèges
10. The Ghosts of Versailles


----------



## Herkku

1. I Puritani - Bellini
2. Medea - Cherubini
3. Capriccio - R. Strauss
4. Die Königin von Saba - Goldmark
5. L'Elisir d'Amore - Donizetti
6. Maria Stuarda - Donizetti
7. Anna Bolena - Donizetti
8. Mosè in Egitto -Rossini
9. Samson et Dalila -Saint-Saëns
10. Gianni Schicchi - Puccini


----------



## Almaviva

Herkku said:


> 5. L'Elisir d'Amore - Donizetti


L'Elisir d'Amore has made it already, Herkku. It's our 64th recommended opera.
I love it that you recommend more Donizettis. I shall support them in the next round (and also Roberto Devereux).


----------



## sospiro

-1. Macbeth
-2. Hamlet
-3. Ernani
-4. Andrea Chenier
-5. Attila
-6. La Sonnambula
-7. Mefistofele
-8. Un ballo in maschera
-9. Roméo et Juliette
10. La Juive


----------



## mamascarlatti

Hi guys, brief burst of wi-fi in this cottage despite wildness (went for a walk today and found the way barred by a very grumpy seal, entailed much rock climbing to get round it).

1.	Hamlet 
2.	Adriana Lecouvreur
3.	Aknahten
4.	Il ritorno d’Ulisse in patria
5.	Andrea Chenier
6.	Rusalka
7.	Hansel und Gretel
8.	Samson et Dalila
9.	I Puritani
10.	L'Amour de Loin


----------



## jhar26

mamascarlatti said:


> Hi guys, brief burst of wi-fi in this cottage despite wildness (went for a walk today and found the way barred by a very grumpy seal, entailed much rock climbing to get round it).
> 
> 1.	Hamlet
> 2.	Adriana Lecouvreur
> 3.	Aknahten
> 4.	Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria
> 5.	Andrea Chenier
> 6.	Rusalka
> 7.	Hansel und Gretel
> 8.	Samson et Dalila
> 9.	I Puritani
> 10.	L'Amour de Loin


Good to hear from you, Natalie. :tiphat: And, are you having a good time?


----------



## mamascarlatti

jhar26 said:


> Good to hear from you, Natalie. :tiphat: And, are you having a good time?


Lovely thanks Gaston, lots of wild beaches and Lord of the Rings country and wildlife - penguins (nesting under the house and braying like donkeys all night), seals, cormorants, sealions, dolphins, spoonbills, grebes etc etc. Very relaxing.

View attachment 1291


View attachment 1292


View attachment 1293


View attachment 1294


View attachment 1295


----------



## jhar26

Wow, those pictures are stunning!


----------



## mamascarlatti

jhar26 said:


> Wow, those pictures are stunning!


Yes, it's a beautiful country all right. It's almost made having no internet access for 10 days worthwhile!


----------



## Herkku

Sorry about L'Elisir d'Amore. Let's change it to Roberto Devereux!


----------



## emiellucifuge

Wow, you should contribute some pictures to 'the natural world' thread!


----------



## Herkku

New Zealand looks great, but where are the sheep?


----------



## jflatter

1. Il Turco in Italia- pleasssse!!!
2. Hansel un Gretel
3. Gianni Schicchi
4.Rusalka
5 Capriccio
6. The Turn of the Screw
7. The Cunning Little Vixen
8. Rienzi
9. From the House of the Dead
10. I Capuleti e i Montecchi


----------



## jhar26

*VOTING FOR POSITIONS 68-74*

Seven of the operas you've nominated got three or more votes. Those seven will do battle for postions 68-74. Those seven are....

Hansel und Gretel
Gianni Schicchi
Rusalka
Capriccio
Samson et Dalila
L'Amour de Loin
Pagliacci

Choose your *TOP 5* from the above seven and put them in your order of preference.


----------



## Almaviva

1. L'Amour de Loin
2. Pagliacci
3. Gianni Schicchi
4. Hansel und Gretel
5. Samson et Dalila


----------



## jhar26

1 L'Amour de Loin
2 Rusalka
3 Gianni Schicchi
4 Pagliacci
5 Capriccio


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

1. *Pagliacci*
2. *Capriccio*
3. *Hansel & Gretel*
4. *Gianni Schicchi*
5. *Samson et Dalila*


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Pagliacci
2. Hänsel und Gretel
3. Samson et Dalila


----------



## jflatter

Hansel und Gretel
Gianni Schicchi
Rusalka
Capriccio
Pagliacci


----------



## mamascarlatti

1.	Hansel und Gretel
2.	Samson et Dalila 
3.	Rusalka
4.	Gianni Schicchi 
5.	Pagliacci


----------



## Gualtier Malde

1. Hansel und Gretel
2. Samson et Dalila
3. Pagliacci
4. Capriccio
5. Rusalka


----------



## Herkku

Gianni Schicchi
Capriccio
Samson et Dalila
Rusalka
Hansel und Gretel


----------



## jhar26

*RESULT*

Hansel und Gretel...7/23
Magliacci...7/19
Gianni Schicchi...6/19
Samson et Dalila...6/14

*Rusalka...5/13
Capriccio...5/13*

L'Amour de Loin...2/10

*TIEBREAKER*

As you can see we have two operas with the same score, so we'll do a tiebreaker. Which of these two operas gets your vote?

RUSALKA
or
CAPRICCIO

I will not vote myself unless we end up with another draw.


----------



## Webernite

Capriccio for me.


----------



## Gualtier Malde

I'll have a Capriccio, too, please.

Congratulations, Hansel und Gretel!


----------



## sospiro

And a Capriccio for me as well please


----------



## Herkku

Capriccio for me as well!


----------



## Almaviva

I abstein. Rusalka is at home from the public library but I haven't listened to it yet, and I have tickets for the Met in HD Capriccio but it's several weeks away, so, I can't vote.


----------



## jflatter

Rusalka- To make sure it doesn't get whitewashed!


----------



## jhar26

Only a few votes, but it seems obvious that Capriccio is gonna win this, so we may just as well move on...


----------



## jhar26

*TOP 74*

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-5 Les Troyens*
*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
*11 Die Zauberflote*
*12 Carmen*
*13 Parsifal*
*14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia*
*15 Otello*
*16 Tosca*
*17 Cosi fan Tutte*
*18 Wozzeck*
*19 Salome*
*20 Lucia di Lammermoor*
*21 Lohengrin*
*22 Eugene Onegin*
*23 Aida*
*24 Les Contes d'Hoffmann*
*25 Don Carlos*
*26 Rigoletto*
*27 Elektra*
*28 Tannhauser*
*29 L'Orfeo*
*30 Moses und Aron*
*31 Norma*
*32 Boris Godunov*
*33 Fidelio*
*34 Dido and Aeneas*
*35 La Fanciulla del West*
*36 Jenufa*
*37 War and Peace*
*38 Porgy & Bess*
*39 Lulu*
*40 Ariodante*
*41 The Bartered Bride
42 Der Fliegende Hollander
43 Falstaff
44 Turandot
45 Madama Butterfly
46 Les Indes Galantes
47 Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
48 Il Trovatore
49 Simon Boccanegra
50 Peter Grimes
51 Ariadne auf Naxos
52 Manon
53 Pelleas et Melisande
54 La Damnation de Faust
55 Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
56 Alcina
57 Faust
58 The Love for Three Oranges
59 The Rake's Progress
60 Orphée et Eurydice
61 Idomeneo
62 Bluebeard's Castle
63 Cavalleria Rusticana
64 L'Elisir D'Amore
65 L'Incoronasione di Poppea
66 Der Freischutz
67 La Cenerentola
68 Hansel und Gretel
69 Pagliacci
70 Gianni Schicchi
71 Samson et Dalila
72 Capriccio
73 Rusalka
74 L'Amour de Loin
*


----------



## jhar26

*NEW NOMINATION ROUND*

Please nominate a maximum of *10* operas. You can't of course nominate any from our top 74 listed in the previous post.


----------



## sospiro

-1. Macbeth
-2. Hamlet
-3. Ernani
-4. Andrea Chénier
-5. Attila
-6. La Sonnambula
-7. Mefistofele
-8. Un ballo in maschera
-9. Roméo et Juliette
10. La Juive


----------



## jhar26

Medée (Charpentier)
The Makropulos Case (Janacek)
Die Frau ohne Schatten (Strauss)
La Forza del Destino (Verdi)
The Fiery Angel (Prokofiev)
I Puritani (Bellini)
Armide (Lully)
Sadko (Rimsky-Korsakov)
La Clemenza di Tito (Mozart)
Ruslan and Lyudmilla (Glinka)


----------



## Webernite

1. Castor et Pollux
2. Erwartung
3. Die glückliche Hand
4. The Fiery Angel
5. Les Boréades
6. Les Paladins
7. Orlando
8. Daphne


----------



## emiellucifuge

My god! Is it me or is there actually no Meyerbeer?


----------



## Herkku

1. I Puritani
2. Medea (Cherubini)
3. Maria Stuarda
4. Anna Bolena
5. Die Königin von Saba
6. L'Assedio di Corintho
7. Moïse et Pharaon
8. Roberto Devereux
9. La Fille du régiment
10. La Sonnambula


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Einstein On the Beach (Glass)
2. The Turn of the Screw (Britten)
3. The Cunning Little Vixen (Janáček)
4. Nixon in China (Adams)
5. Nabucco (Verdi)
6. Le Grande Macabre (Ligeti)
7. Euryanthe (Weber)
8. Don Pasquale (Donizetti)
9. I Puritani (Bellini)


----------



## jhar26

emiellucifuge said:


> My god! Is it me or is there actually no Meyerbeer?


I seriously doubt that any Meyerbeer opera will make the top 100.


----------



## emiellucifuge

But why? His operas are so incredibly important!


----------



## Almaviva

1. Euryanthe
2. Benvenuto Cellini
3. Arabella
4. Adriana Lecouvreur
5. Les Pêcheurs de Perles
6. Pique Dame (a.k.a. The Queen of Spades)
7. La Serva Padrona 
8. L'Enfant et les Sortilèges
9. The Ghosts of Versailles
10. Roberto Devereux


----------



## Almaviva

emiellucifuge said:


> But why? His operas are so incredibly important!


And also boring and formulaic.


----------



## Elgarian

1. La Rondine
2. Suor Angelica
3. I Capuleti e i Montecchi (Bellini)
4. Cendrillon (Massenet)
5. Mignon (Thomas)
6. Romeo et Juliette (Gounod)
7. Proserpine (Lully)
8. Cadmus & Hermione (Lully)
9. Louise (Charpentier)
10. Sapho (Massenet)

Blimey - I take a few days off, and you all lose your senses again. Let's get some of these fine operas into the list!

Vive La France! (Well, mostly. 70%, anyway.)


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Elgarian said:


> Blimey - I take a few days off, and you all lose your senses again.
> Let's get some of these fine operas into the list!


I'll help with a trio of them, anyway...

1. *Mignon*- Thomas
2. *La Forza del Destino*- Verdi
3. *La Rondine*- Puccini
4. *Rienzi*- Wagner
5. *L'Enfant et les Sortilèges*- Ravel
6. *Prince Igor*- Borodin
7. *Iphigénie en Tauride*- Gluck
8. *La Gioconda*- Ponchielli
9. *La Vida Breve*- Falla (we're overdue for a Spanish-language opera... and YOU know it.)
10. *Roméo et Juliette*- Gounod


----------



## Herkku

> My god! Is it me or is there actually no Meyerbeer?


Dear emiellucifuge! Since I wasn't with you on this thread from the beginning, I took the time to scan through the whole thread and noticed that you haven't nominated a single opera by Meyerbeer yourself! And also that you have lately just been making fun of the whole thing. Nothing wrong with that, but now I know what to think of your remarks!


----------



## emiellucifuge

Dear Herkku! 
I have not been making fun of this thread, in fact I have been supporting this and believe it to be a good list - those comments were not sarcastic! The reason I no longer participate is because I do not know as many operas as many here and have nominated all those I believe are worthy. Obviously my slightly limited view will only taint the accuracy of this list from here-on. From a purely academic perspective I believe Meyerbeer was an important opera-composer, but have not personally heard his operas. I merely wondered why he hadnt been included.

In fact I was so in appreciation of this thread that I have taken the idea to the orchestral forum myself. Please do not misunderstand my comments, but sorry for any misunderstandings


----------



## jhar26

Yes, Meyerbeer IS important. In a top 200 several of his operas would probably make it. Top 100 is a bit too high I think, but I could be wrong. Just my opinion, nothing more.


----------



## emiellucifuge

jhar26 said:


> Yes, Meyerbeer IS important. In a top 200 several of his operas would probably make it. Top 100 is a bit too high I think, but I could be wrong. Just my opinion, nothing more.


Just from reading various music history books (and good ones too!) I kind of got the impression that he was one of those most important of opera composers, but also one of the best. I guess those who have actually experienced his operas disagree. Still, for example his operas are featured on the DDD list.


----------



## jhar26

emiellucifuge said:


> Just from reading various music history books (and good ones too!) I kind of got the impression that he was one of those most important of opera composers, but also one of the best. I guess those who have actually experienced his operas disagree. Still, for example his operas are featured on the DDD list.


Well, he was VERY popular in his time. But a lot of that had to do with larger than life productions. Not that he wasn't a good composer, but much of his popularity was based on the fact that he was sorta for opera what Cecil B.DeMille would be for movies.


----------



## Herkku

There is much impressive music in Les Huguenots and Le Prophète. L'Africaine is still a gap in my operatic knowledge, one that I am going to fill one of these days. There are at least single arias in Robert le diable and Dinorah that have lived on, if only rarely performed.

Sorry, if I understood your messages wrongly.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Hmm.. do you believe one of those two operas should be included in the top 100?

No hard feelings eh? Im not the most socially intelligent person, anyone will tell you


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

Meyerbeer had a gift for melody, and memorable tunes abound in his works. They often, however, have little to do with the drama onstage, hanging more like ornaments to hold the attention of the audience. His works can be superficially eye-and ear-catching, opulent and grandiose, but have little depth or artistic unity.

I believe it was Hans von Bülow who joked that _Rienzi_ was Meyerbeer's best opera.


----------



## Herkku

emiellucifuge said:


> Hmm.. do you believe one of those two operas should be included in the top 100?


Well, there are some operas already in the list that I could change even to Meyerbeer...:devil:


----------



## Elgarian

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I'll help with a trio of them, anyway...
> 
> 1. *Mignon*- Thomas
> 
> 3. *La Rondine*- Puccini
> 
> 10. *Roméo et Juliette*- Gounod


Go get 'em, CTP!


----------



## Almaviva

Herkku said:


> Well, there are some operas already in the list that I could change even to Meyerbeer...:devil:


Which ones, Herkku?
I particularly think that we have ranked La Fanciulla del West too high. I'll read the list and think of others.

OK, I took a look. Here are some others I don't especially care for: Faust, Samson et Dalila, and Der Freishchutz (which I'd gladly change to Euryanthe).

But in general terms I think this list is coming out rather OK.

About the DDD list, I concur with Gaston that listing 3 of Meyerbeer's among the top 100 is a little over the top (just like his operas are). Maybe I'd concur with one - probably Les Huguenots, and probably in the high 90's - but Meyerbeer in my opinion is not good enough to have three of his operas in the top 100. Anyway, whoever wants these operas there should vote for them and we'll see if he gets supporters. I probably wouldn't vote for any of them at this point as I see many operas I consider to be better than Meyerbeer's that haven't made it yet. For instance, I'd like to see all four Berlioz operas there, and only two have made it so far. I consider that the absence of Adriana Lecouvreur and Euryanthe are hard to explain, and an opera of the historical importance of La Serva Padrona should have been included long ago. There are still some Verdis and Donizettis available that beat Meyerbeer easily. We got stuff like Le Rossignol, L'Enfant et les Sortilèges, Les Pêcheurs de Perles that are all ten times more interesting than any Meyerbeer. So no, no Meyerbeer for me.


----------



## jhar26

Well, it wouldn't be a scandelous omission if none of his operas would make it into the top 100, but it wouldn't be outrageous if one of them would make the cut as an acknowledgment for his overall contribution to the genre either. I'm in two minds about it really. He did his bit and deserves some praise for it. But on the other hand I agree with Almaviva that Meyerbeer's problem is not that he himself wasn't good, it's just that there are so many great operas by others that haven't yet been ranked.

So far I'm happy with the results. As far as I'm concerned there's not a single opera on there that doesn't belong. Of course my personal ranking order might be a bit different here and there, but that's inevitable. If I would rank them today I might even disagree with myself tomorrow. But that only goes to show the overall quality of the list and that it's often a matter of splitting hairs and what you're in the mood for on any given day.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Werther
Hamlet
Andrea Chenier
Adriana Lecouvreur
La fille du regiment
Ernani
Les Boreades
Akhnaten
La forza del Destino
I Puritani


----------



## sospiro

Herkku said:


> Well, there are some operas already in the list that I could change even to Meyerbeer...:devil:


 Please - not my _Boccanegra_.


----------



## Herkku

Almaviva said:


> Which ones, Herkku?
> I particularly think that we have ranked La Fanciulla del West too high. I'll read the list and think of others.


Well, I don't want to reveal them. Basically the list is OK. Maybe I got carried away. (But I can tell that I just recieved Le Prophete with Horne and Scotto on CD in the post...)


----------



## jflatter

Il Turco in Italia- pleasssse!!!
The Turn of the Screw
The Cunning Little Vixen
Rienzi
From the House of the Dead
I Capuleti e i Montecchi
La Clemenza di Tito
Powder Her Face
La fille du regiment
Billy Budd


----------



## jhar26

*VOTING FOR POSITIONS 75-78*

Only four operas got three (or four) votes in our nomination round, so by the look of it two votes will be sufficient to qualify next time.

But for now, please rank these four operas in your order of preference....

La Fille du Regiment
La Forza del Destino
I Puritani
Romeo et Juliette


----------



## sospiro

1. La forza del destino
2. La fille du régiment
3. Romèo et Juliette
4. I Puritani


----------



## Almaviva

1. I Puritani
2. La Forza del Destino
3. La Fille du Régiment
4. Romèo et Juliette


----------



## Herkku

I Puritani
La Fille du Regiment
Romeo et Juliette
La Forza del Destino


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

I Puritani


----------



## Elgarian

1. Romeo et Juliette
2. I Puritani
3. La Fille du Regiment
4. La Forza del Destino

Gaston, may I just say that I am full of admiration for the way you're handling this. It's not that you understand what you're doing (let's face it, no ordinary mortal _could_ understand this process), but that you convince us all that you do, so completely.


----------



## Herkku

Alas, we mere mortals don't always understand these things! But thanks to Gaston (if I also may call you that), everything works. All we have to do is vote.

Regarding Meyerbeer, I have just listened to Le Prophete (only two CDs out of three) and I think we have underestimated him. I would venture to put him alonside Massenet, even faced with public stoning! So, there!


----------



## emiellucifuge

Herkku said:


> Alas, we mere mortals don't always understand these things! But thanks to Gaston (if I also may call you that), everything works. All we have to do is vote.
> 
> Regarding Meyerbeer, I have just listened to Le Prophete (only two CDs out of three) and I think we have underestimated him. I would venture to put him alonside Massenet, even faced with public stoning! So, there!


 :tiphat:


----------



## Elgarian

Herkku said:


> I would venture to put him alonside Massenet, even faced with public stoning! So, there!


We'll need the help of the moderators to organise the public stoning, but after a statement like that, I'm sure they'll be more than willing. I shall hold out on your behalf for mercy, and plead for rotting kippers instead of stones.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

1. La Forza del Destino
2. Romèo et Juliette
3. La Fille du Régiment
4. I Puritani


----------



## Herkku

Actually, I'm quite serious about Le Prophete. It's also quite relevant today, telling about people persecuted for their religion! And the music matches the grim theme. And on the recording we have Marilyn Horne, that tower of strenght, who really had the bel canto ideals in her possession. No wobble, no aitches, and a trill!


----------



## Almaviva

Herkku said:


> Actually, I'm quite serious about Le Prophete. It's also quite relevant today, telling about people persecuted for their religion! And the music matches the grim theme. And on the recording we have Marilyn Horne, that tower of strenght, who really had the bel canto ideals in her possession. No wobble, no aitches, and a trill!


Hey, I do have this recording, with Marilyn Horne and Nicolai Gedda. It's on my unlistened to pile. I'm pretty upset that it doesn't include the libretto. I'll have to look for the libretto online. Any hints?


----------



## Herkku

It can't be the same recording, because I have James McCracken instead of Gedda!


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> Gaston, may I just say that I am full of admiration for the way you're handling this. It's not that you understand what you're doing (let's face it, no ordinary mortal _could_ understand this process), but that you convince us all that you do, so completely.


I get a kick out of fooling you guys into thinking that I actually have a clue, Alan.  I'm the Arnold Schoenberg of the moderating team. Everyone thinks, "what the hell is going on?", but nobody dares to say so out of fear that he's the only one that doesn't get it.


----------



## jhar26

Herkku said:


> Alas, we mere mortals don't always understand these things! But thanks to Gaston *(if I also may call you that)*, everything works. All we have to do is vote.


Well, you could call me Charlie, Boris, Geraldine or Josephine I suppose, but it's best to call me Gaston because otherwise I won't know who you're talking to.


----------



## Herkku

OK. I was just wondering, why so many members call you Gaston. I mean, how do they know?


----------



## jhar26

Herkku said:


> OK. I was just wondering, why so many members call you Gaston. I mean, how do they know?


From PM's that they got probably. I usually put my name at the bottom of those. I don't mind that they know. In my early days here I had to explain on a regular basis that I wasn't a she or a her because people seemed to think I was a member of the superior sex courtesy of the Martha Argerich lookalike wig I'm wearing on the picture of my avatar.


----------



## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> I get a kick out of fooling you guys into thinking that I actually have a clue, Alan.


But actually, Boris, we know this is a double bluff, in a vain attempt to disguise the fact that when you joined the moderator team you were granted superhuman powers.


----------



## sospiro

Gaston is our superhero


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> But actually, Boris, we know this is a double bluff, in a vain attempt to disguise the fact that when you joined the moderator team you were granted superhuman powers.


Well, if you've got any spoons that need bending, you just let me know Alan.


----------



## Almaviva

Josephine, I need you to use your superhuman powers and take that baby out of the Copenhagen Ring.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Josephine, I need you to use your superhuman powers and take that baby out of the Copenhagen Ring.


THAT would really make me the superhero Annie is talking about.


----------



## jhar26

1 I Puritani
2 La Forza del Destino
3 Romeo et Juliette
4 La Fille du Regiment


----------



## mamascarlatti

La Fille du Regiment
La Forza del Destino
I Puritani
Romeo et Juliette


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> La Fille du Regiment
> La Forza del Destino
> I Puritani
> Romeo et Juliette


Are you back to civilization? I miss your regular participation here...


----------



## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> Are you back to civilization? I miss your regular participation here...


I'm officially in the Discovery room at Otago Museum - but I ducked in to illegally use the internet and vote while the eight-year old is exploring the exhibits:devil:


----------



## Almaviva

Herkku said:


> It can't be the same recording, because I have James McCracken instead of Gedda!


Oh, OK. Any insight into which one is better?
And I've just learned that there is a revision of _Il templario _called _Der Tempelritter. _Which version do you recommend?


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> I'm officially in the Discovery room at Otago Museum - but I ducked in to illegally use the internet and vote while the eight-year old is exploring the exhibits:devil:


So still on vacation, huh? Having a good time?
Oh well, I'll be on vacation myself from the 19th through the 31st and I'm not planning to take my laptop so I may only post rarely like you did.

The way this is going, we may not get to the 100th opera before I leave.


----------



## jhar26

*RESULTS*

I Puritani...20 points
La Forza del Destino...19
La Fille du Regiment...17
Romeo et Juliette...15


----------



## jhar26

*TOP 78*

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-5 Les Troyens*
*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
*11 Die Zauberflote*
*12 Carmen*
*13 Parsifal*
*14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia*
*15 Otello*
*16 Tosca*
*17 Cosi fan Tutte*
*18 Wozzeck*
*19 Salome*
*20 Lucia di Lammermoor*
*21 Lohengrin*
*22 Eugene Onegin*
*23 Aida*
*24 Les Contes d'Hoffmann*
*25 Don Carlos*
*26 Rigoletto*
*27 Elektra*
*28 Tannhauser*
*29 L'Orfeo*
*30 Moses und Aron*
*31 Norma*
*32 Boris Godunov*
*33 Fidelio*
*34 Dido and Aeneas*
*35 La Fanciulla del West*
*36 Jenufa*
*37 War and Peace*
*38 Porgy & Bess*
*39 Lulu*
*40 Ariodante*
*41 The Bartered Bride
42 Der Fliegende Hollander
43 Falstaff
44 Turandot
45 Madama Butterfly
46 Les Indes Galantes
47 Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
48 Il Trovatore
49 Simon Boccanegra
50 Peter Grimes
51 Ariadne auf Naxos
52 Manon
53 Pelleas et Melisande
54 La Damnation de Faust
55 Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
56 Alcina
57 Faust
58 The Love for Three Oranges
59 The Rake's Progress
60 Orphée et Eurydice
61 Idomeneo
62 Bluebeard's Castle
63 Cavalleria Rusticana
64 L'Elisir D'Amore
65 L'Incoronasione di Poppea
66 Der Freischutz
67 La Cenerentola
68 Hansel und Gretel
69 Pagliacci
70 Gianni Schicchi
71 Samson et Dalila
72 Capriccio
73 Rusalka
74 L'Amour de Loin
75 I Puritani
76 La Forza del Destino
77 La Fille du Regiment
78 Romeo et Juliette
*


----------



## jhar26

*NEW NOMINATION ROUND*

Please nominate a maximum of 10 operas. You can nominate any opera, except for those in our top 78 listed above.


----------



## Herkku

Thank God! Two more bel canto operas included.


----------



## Elgarian

1. La Rondine
2. Suor Angelica
3. I Capuleti e i Montecchi (Bellini)
4. Cendrillon (Massenet)
5. Mignon (Thomas)
6. Proserpine (Lully)
7. Cadmus & Hermione (Lully)
8. Louise (Charpentier)
9. Sapho (Massenet)
10. Psyche (Lully)

I'm so far out on a limb here that I can very nearly just keep pasting the same ten!


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Einstein On the Beach (Glass)
2. The Turn of the Screw (Britten)
3. The Cunning Little Vixen (Janáček)
4. Nixon in China (Adams)
5. Nabucco (Verdi)
6. Le Grande Macabre (Ligeti)
7. Euryanthe (Weber)
8. Don Pasquale (Donizetti)


----------



## sospiro

-1. Macbeth
-2. Hamlet
-3. Ernani
-4. Andrea Chénier
-5. Attila
-6. La Sonnambula
-7. Mefistofele
-8. Un ballo in maschera
-9. La Juive
10. Don Pasquale


----------



## Herkku

1. Macbeth
2. La Clemenza di Tito
3. Un ballo in maschera
4. La Sonnambula
5. Medea (Cherubini)
6. Andrea Chenier
7. Maria Stuarda
8. Die Königin von Saba
9. Le Prophète
10. The Golden Cockerel (Золотой Петушок)


----------



## Webernite

1. Erwartung
2. Castor et Pollux
3. Die glückliche Hand
4. The Fiery Angel
5. Les Boréades
6. Les Paladins
7. Orlando
8. Daphne

I think Erwartung _has_ to be in the top 100. It's better than Bluebeard's Castle, in my opinion.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

1. *Mignon*- Thomas
2. *La Rondine*- Puccini
3. *Rienzi*- Wagner
4. *L'Enfant et les Sortilèges*- Ravel
5. *Prince Igor*- Borodin
6. *Iphigénie en Tauride*- Gluck
7. *La Gioconda*- Ponchielli
8. *La Vida Breve*- Falla (we're overdue for a Spanish-language opera... and YOU know it.)
9. *Louise*- Charpentier
10. *Adriana Lecouvreur*- Cilea


----------



## Geronimo

1. L'Enfant et les sortilèges (Ravel)
2. Billy Budd (Britten)
3. Die Tote Stadt (Korngold)

The other operas that I know are already on the top 78 list...


----------



## myaskovsky2002

about:

1. The Ring of the Nibelung (4 operas not one) Very good.
2. Les Troyens
3. Tristan und Isolde....I don't know.
4. The Marriage of Figaro (great, I vote for it)
5. Otello (bad Verdi)
6. La Boheme (elementary Puccini but still not bad)
7. Don Giovanni (Not much)
8. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg ( I don't like this opera)
9. Norma (good, have my vote)
10. La Traviata ( I killed Violeta, I hate this opera)

Martin


----------



## myaskovsky2002

I put I don't know to the Troyens...NOt to Tristan, I love Tristan!


----------



## jhar26

myaskovsky2002 said:


> about:
> 
> 1. The Ring of the Nibelung (4 operas not one) Very good.
> 2. Les Troyens
> 3. Tristan und Isolde....I don't know.
> 4. The Marriage of Figaro (great, I vote for it)
> 5. Otello (bad Verdi)
> 6. La Boheme (elementary Puccini but still not bad)
> 7. Don Giovanni (Not much)
> 8. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg ( I don't like this opera)
> 9. Norma (good, have my vote)
> 10. La Traviata ( I killed Violeta, I hate this opera)
> 
> Martin


You can see 'the real' list in post #808.


----------



## Herkku

myaskovsky2002, you have a singular taste! Nothing wrong with that. I just find it interesting. It adds some spice to the forum, like Aramis, too!


----------



## Almaviva

I've been insisting with the same operas for a while and they aren't making it. I should continue to insist to be coherent, but I don't feel like it anymore. I'll start for the most part to support other operas that people are proposing and I also consider to be worthy or can live with at this point of the list, so that we get this done, instead of spreading the field too much.

So, let's see...

4. Euryanthe
5. L'Enfant et les Sortilèges
6. The Golden Cocquerel
7. Adriana Lecouvreur
8. Macbeth
9. Don Pasquale
10. The Cunning Little Vixen

OK, so, I've supported 7 of those that people have already mentioned. I guess I can afford 3 that they haven't:

1.Les Pêcheurs de Perles
2.Roberto Deveureux
3. Benvenuto Cellini

OK, I've rearranged the numbers above so that the 3 I care a lot about and haven't made it yet get a bigger chance if someone endorses them.


----------



## Herkku

And I just dropped Roberto Devereux to make room for the Golden Cockerel!


----------



## sospiro

I'm running out of ones I know but as my tastes are sometimes odd my Top Ten will probably remain the same until.....

we start on the 100 - 200 list










(That's Gaston btw)


----------



## jhar26

sospiro said:


> I'm running out of ones I know but as my tastes are sometimes odd my Top Ten will probably remain the same until.....
> 
> we start on the 100 - 200 list
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (That's Gaston btw)


Which is why it comes as a relieve to me that Alan has volunteered to do the 101-200 part of the game. :devil:


----------



## jhar26

-1 Medée (Charpentier)
-2 The Makropulos Case
-3 La Clemenza di Tito
-4 The Cunning Little Vixen
-5 The Golden Cockerel
-6 Euryanthe
-7 Un Ballo in Maschera
-8 Adriana Lecouvreur
-9 La Sonnambula
10 La Rondine


----------



## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> Which is why it comes as a relieve to me that Alan has volunteered to do the 101-200 part of the game. :devil:


Yes, I was getting quite excited about that prospect, but when Almaviva said he'd _really_ like to do it and would be distressed if he couldn't, I reluctantly passed the baton to him.


----------



## Herkku

I'm relieved to read that there might be a second round, since there are so many lovely operas that won't simply have room in the first 100!


----------



## jhar26

Herkku said:


> I'm relieved to read that there might be a second round, since there are so many lovely operas that won't simply have room in the first 100!


That's true, but I will be happy if we make it to 100. There's no point in going any further if only three or four people will be able to vote.


----------



## Herkku

I completely agree. Since I wasn't along from the beginning, I perused the whole thread through and noticed that many voters had dropped off along the way. Let's just see how we get to the 100! After all, there are thousands of operas, and someone's favourites wouldn't make it to the 200!


----------



## Elgarian

Herkku said:


> there are so many lovely operas that won't simply have room in the first 100!


If La _Rondine_ doesn't get in, I'm going to stamp my feet _and tear up all my comics!_


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> Yes, I was getting quite excited about that prospect, but when Almaviva said he'd _really_ like to do it and would be distressed if he couldn't, I reluctantly passed the baton to him.


You forgot to mention that you dropped the baton when you were passing it, and it hit my toe which now has gangrene. I think I'll die just like Lully and won't be able to do the 101-200 part. But I hear that Natalie is really tired of seals, penguins (do they have them there???), sheep and the such from her 3 weeks in the New Zealand countryside and very distressed that she missed part of the vote for 1-100, so, she insists that she must be the one doing the 101-200, and from my death bed I'll be glad to make of her my heir for this project.


----------



## Elgarian

Almaviva said:


> I hear that Natalie is really tired of seals, penguins (do they have them there???), sheep and the such from her 3 weeks in the New Zealand countryside and very distressed that she missed part of the vote for 1-100, so, she insists that she must be the one doing the 101-200, and from my death bed I'll be glad to make of her my heir for this project.


That's excellent news, and I'm particularly impressed by the careful forgery of Natalie's signature that you added to the document in which she solemnly swears to undertake this important duty. So I think we've got it all nicely sewn up now, Alma.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Elgarian said:


> If La _Rondine_ doesn't get in, I'm going to stamp my feet _and tear up all my comics!_


Looks like your comics are gonna be saved.

As we get deeper into these panels, I have generally less strong feelings about the outcome. I feel a little weird that it seems only one Gluck opera is gonna get on our list- but I'm increasingly okay with (or is it resigned to) that fact. Seems kind of strange that no Spanish-language opera is gonna get there either. [I had a brief moment where I considered nominating Ginastera's _Bomarzo_, but I guess that would have been equally fruitless.] Back to the point, however, I really can't make a passionate case why 'Gioconda' should be considered over 'Sonnambula,' nor can I hold forth on why 'Prince Igor' should be preferred over 'A Life for the Tsar,' for instance.

The only opera left out of the nominating process that retains any significant emotional investment for me is *Mignon*. Gotta get Thomas onto this list. Next panel, I will nominate *Mignon* AND *Hamlet*, and hope that the 'Hamlet' supporter/s do the same.


----------



## sospiro

Chi_townPhilly said:


> ...
> 
> Gotta get Thomas onto this list. Next panel, I will nominate *Mignon* AND *Hamlet*, and hope that the 'Hamlet' supporter/s do the same.


I've been nominating Hamlet since 27th November


----------



## jflatter

Il Turco in Italia- pleasssse!!!
The Turn of the Screw
The Cunning Little Vixen
Rienzi
From the House of the Dead
I Capuleti e i Montecchi
La Clemenza di Tito
Powder Her Face
Un ballo in Maschera
Billy Budd


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

sospiro said:


> I've been nominating Hamlet since 27th November


You've been nominating Hamlet for as long as I've been nominating Mignon.

Time for us to pull on the same end of the rope, I say.


----------



## sospiro

Chi_townPhilly said:


> You've been nominating Hamlet for as long as I've been nominating Mignon.
> 
> Time for us to pull on the same end of the rope, I say.


:lol:

I need to keep up the pressure for Macbeth as well.

If I offered forumers a free ticket to see it next year, do you think I might get it a few more nominations?


----------



## Almaviva

sospiro said:


> :lol:
> 
> I need to keep up the pressure for Macbeth as well.
> 
> If I offered forumers a free ticket to see it next year, do you think I might get it a few more nominations?


Would the free ticket include air travel, a hotel room, taxi cab fares to/from the airport and to/from the opera house, and meals?

Since I'm already supporting Macbeth this round, please kindly include vouchers for all of the above in your mail to me when you return the flash drive.

Oh, and I require orchestra seats, not farther away than 4th row, and center. Make sure the hotel is at least 4 stars although a 5 stars rating is preferred. For the meals, no kidney pie, please.

The cab doesn't need to be a stretch limousine, I'm easy to please.


----------



## sospiro

Almaviva said:


> Would the free ticket include air travel, a hotel room, taxi cab fares to/from the airport and to/from the opera house, and meals?


Indeed!

Only proviso is you have to keep me company for two hours at Stage Door while we wait for SimonK to appear ... and then drool over him & I mean drool, none of your 'hail fellow well met slap on the back' sort of behaviour.

Seats will be as near the front as you desire, in the pit if you like

Hotel 4 star 5 star, whatever you wish but will be within walking distance of ROH because of Stage Door appearances and drooling

Only chavs have stretch limos in England


----------



## Almaviva

sospiro said:


> Indeed!
> 
> Only proviso is you have to keep me company for two hours at Stage Door while we wait for SimonK to appear ... and then drool over him & I mean drool, none of your 'hail fellow well met slap on the back' sort of behaviour.


Hm.... any insight on who the soprano is?
The wait may be tolerable depending on the soprano.
If they come out the stage door together, I'll drool and you won't be able to tell whether I'm drooling for him or her.


----------



## Almaviva

sospiro said:


> Only chavs have stretch limos in England


Well that's why I said I don't require them. Otherwise, I'd have asked for one.


----------



## Almaviva

Hmm... I've checked myself.










Nah. Sorry, I'm not sure if I can manage any drooling.


----------



## sospiro

Almaviva said:


> Hmm... I've checked myself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nah. Sorry, I'm not sure if I can manage any drooling.


Coward ...

But will you still nominate Macbeth?


----------



## jhar26

*VOTING FOR POSITIONS 79-90*

Wow, we have a substantial group of operas with three or more nominations this time, so we'll get a lot of work done with this next round of voting....

La Rondine
The Cunning Little Vixen
Euryanthe
Don Pasquale
Macbeth
La Sonnambula
La Clemenza di Tito
Un Ballo in Maschera
L'Enfent et les Sortileges
Adriana Lecouvreur
The Golden Cockerel

Please choose your *TOP 5* faves from these eleven operas and put them in your order of preference.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Werther
Hamlet
Andrea Chenier
Adriana Lecouvreur
La Clemenza di Tito
Ernani
Les Boreades
Akhnaten
The Cunning little vixen
Un Ballo in Maschera


----------



## Ravellian

Well, we've gotten to the point where I haven't heard any of these. Oh well.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> Werther
> Hamlet
> Andrea Chenier
> Adriana Lecouvreur
> La Clemenza di Tito
> Ernani
> Les Boreades
> Akhnaten
> The Cunning little vixen
> Un Ballo in Maschera


It's only five, Natalie. And only among the ones that are fighting for the 79-90 positions. I guess you tried to enter your nominations too late. Now we're positioning the ones that have made it for 79-90.


----------



## Almaviva

1. Euryanthe
2. Adriana Lecouvreur
3. Macbeth (I want my trip to London, all expenses paid by Annie!)
4. Don Pasquale
5. L'Enfant et les Sortilèges

I know I'm not being coherent with my previous nominations but that's OK, I'm going with the whim of the moment.


----------



## sospiro

Almaviva said:


> 3. Macbeth (I want my trip to London, all expenses paid by Annie!)


As long as you understand my euphemism for 'drooling' ...

1. Macbeth
2. La Sonnambula
3. Un ballo in maschera
4. Don Pasquale
5. La Rondine


----------



## Almaviva

sospiro said:


> As long as you understand my euphemism for 'drooling' ...


Euphemism?
Huh... you don't expect me to sleep with him, right?
*That* would indeed be a deal breaker.:lol:


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. The Cunning Little Vixen
2. Euryanthe
3. Don Pasquale


----------



## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> It's only five, Natalie. And only among the ones that are fighting for the 79-90 positions. I guess you tried to enter your nominations too late. Now we're positioning the ones that have made it for 79-90.


Oh bother, I posted my nominations at exactly the same time as Gaston. Gotta be quick in this game.

Adriana Lecouvreur
The Cunning Little Vixen
Un Ballo in Maschera
Don Pasquale
La Clemenza di Tito


----------



## Herkku

1. The Golden Cockerel
2. La Clemenza di Tito
3. La Sonnambula
4. Un Ballo in Maschera
5. Macbeth

Almaviva: I understand going with the whim of the moment, but where is your The Golden Cockerel?


----------



## Almaviva

Herkku said:


> 1. The Golden Cockerel
> 2. La Clemenza di Tito
> 3. La Sonnambula
> 4. Un Ballo in Maschera
> 5. Macbeth
> 
> Almaviva: I understand going with the whim of the moment, but where is your The Golden Cockerel?


That's exactly what I meant. I didn't include it. I was content that it will make it to the 79-90 segment anyway, and at the moment of the vote I cared for five others to be in the 79-84 spots. The Golden Cocquerel will be in the worst case scenario in 90th place and I'm fine with it.

You know, I had to open space to Macbeth; after all, a trip to London with all expenses paid, orchestra front row center seats, 4 or 5 stars hotel, taxi cabs (no stretch limo) and meals with no kidney pies are worth adding Macbeth and dropping The Golden Cocquerel...


----------



## sospiro

Almaviva said:


> You know, I had to open space to Macbeth; after all, a trip to London with all expenses paid, orchestra front row center seats, 4 or 5 stars hotel, taxi cabs (no stretch limo) and meals with no kidney pies are worth adding Macbeth and dropping The Golden Cockerel...


and he's got to fancy you as well


----------



## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> That's exactly what I meant. I didn't include it. I was content that it will make it to the 79-90 segment anyway, and at the moment of the vote I cared for five others to be in the 79-84 spots. The Golden Cocquerel will be in the worst case scenario in 90th place and I'm fine with it.
> 
> You know, I had to open space to Macbeth; after all, a trip to London with all expenses paid, orchestra front row center seats, 4 or 5 stars hotel, taxi cabs (no stretch limo) and meals with no kidney pies are worth adding Macbeth and dropping The Golden Cocquerel...


What Annie hasn't told you is that instead of kidney pies you are getting black pudding:










and jellied eels:


----------



## sospiro

mamascarlatti said:


> What Annie hasn't told you is that instead of kidney pies you are getting black pudding:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and jellied eels:


:lol:

and no fine wines either

only 'real' as in 'flat & warm' beer


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> What Annie hasn't told you is that instead of kidney pies you are getting black pudding:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and jellied eels:


eeeeewwwwwwwwww


----------



## Almaviva

sospiro said:


> :lol:
> 
> and no fine wines either
> 
> only 'real' as in 'flat & warm' beer


The beer, I can handle. I actually do like many British beers and don't mind drinking them warm.
The part about a man fancying me, on the other hand...


----------



## emiellucifuge

Almaviva said:


> You know, I had to open space to Macbeth; after all, a trip to London with all expenses paid, orchestra front row center seats, 4 or 5 stars hotel, taxi cabs (no stretch limo) and meals with no kidney pies are worth adding Macbeth and dropping The Golden Cocquerel...




At the opera house here front row seats are cheaper tahn those behind them - slightly annoying view with your head tilted up, though a good view of the pit. Is that different in london?


----------



## sospiro

emiellucifuge said:


> At the opera house here front row seats are cheaper than those behind them - slightly annoying view with your head tilted up, though a good view of the pit. Is that different in London?


Front two rows are cheaper than those immediately behind. The stage is slightly higher but not enough to make your neck ache.


----------



## Almaviva

sospiro said:


> Front two rows are cheaper than those immediately behind. The stage is slightly higher but not enough to make your neck ache.


I'll get the third row, then.


----------



## Contessa

Herkku said:


> I perused the whole thread through and noticed that many voters had dropped off along the way.


I persevered for a little but faith was already lost after the Les Troyens making the top ten affair (and I dont mean to reopen the discussion). There just werent enough voters even at the start to ensure a reliable list imune to distortion by the favourites of a handful.


----------



## sospiro

Almaviva said:


> I'll get the third row, then.


Sorry already ordered - you'll get the front row & centre (& the odd poke in the eye from a wayward Pappano baton) & lump it.

And a night of passion with SK.


----------



## Elgarian

1. La Rondine
2. La Clemenza di Tito
3. La Sonnambula
4. Un Ballo in Maschera
5. Adriana Lecouvreur

Spare a thought for this pile of comics by my side, people.


----------



## Elgarian

mamascarlatti said:


> and jellied eels:


I only had the misfortune to eat jellied eels once (they are seriously horrible), but the story has a happy ending. It was at Folkestone, on the harbour, and I'd bought them at a stall, and I sat down on the wall to consume them in the sunshine. Moments later, having eaten one, I found myself wondering just how many it would be possible to eat without bringing the whole lot back up again, and I was completing this interesting calculation when there was a great swoosh - and suddenly I had no jellied eels. A giant seagull had swooped down from the sky and made off with the lot.

I wondered about reporting the theft to the Seagull Police, but remembering the taste of the wretched things, decided the crime was self-punishing.

And now, back to the top 100 opera list ....


----------



## Almaviva

Contessa said:


> I persevered for a little but faith was already lost after the Les Troyens making the top ten affair (and I dont mean to reopen the discussion). There just werent enough voters even at the start to ensure a reliable list imune to distortion by the favourites of a handful.


Just a curiosity, don't read me wrong: have you seen/listened to Les Troyens?

About the entire list, I think it is turning out quite OK. I'm not sure what reliable means for you, but this is a list of what the members of this forum have recommend, nothing more, but also nothing less. We've never pretended that it was a list of "best" operas. It is reliable in the sense that people did vote for these, so, it means that they do recommend them. There are no operas here that weren't recommended by some of our members, and in this sense I believe that the list can be called 100% reliable. It does what it intends to do.

I for one strongly recommend Les Troyens.


----------



## Herkku

In Finland we have lampreys, that are sold in the market places. I tried them once with mustard sauce, but could only eat one and had a hard time to keep it inside...


----------



## Almaviva

Herkku said:


> In Finland we have lampreys, that are sold in the market places. I tried them once with mustard sauce, but could only eat one and had a hard time to keep it inside...


Uhoh... I think I'll abandon this thread and browse the "Lovely Soprano" thread instead...


----------



## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> Uhoh... I think I'll abandon this thread and browse the "Lovely Soprano" thread instead...


No no Alma wait!

More edible treats in store - this time from my own neck of the woods:










Huhu grubs - try them at the Hokitika Wildfoods festival.

Herkku - those lampreys look spectacularly revolting. I particularly appreciated the inclusion of a cross-section of the beast which completely put me off my own inoffensive bread and cheese lunch.


----------



## Almaviva

Here is what this thread needs:


----------



## Herkku

Well, well, at least we have Anna! But have you seen the newcomer? Maybe more for the adult taste...










Her name is Sondra Radvanovsky. Have you heard her Verdi Arias?


----------



## Almaviva

Herkku said:


> Well, well, at least we have Anna! But have you seen the newcomer? Maybe more for the adult taste...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Her name is Sondra Radvanovsky. Have you heard her Verdi Arias?


Not bad!
Where have I seen her? I've seen her somewhere, I'm sure. I looked and it seems like she's been on only one DVD:










Which I don't know. But why do I have the impression that I've seen her on stage?

And I've seen the cover of her CD but haven't heard it.










But I'm having one of those _déja vu _moments but can't place her.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

1. La Rondine
2. L'Enfant et les Sortilèges
3. Adriana Lecouvreur
4. Un Ballo in Maschera
5. Euryanthe


----------



## sospiro

Almaviva said:


> And I've seen the cover of her CD but haven't heard it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I'm having one of those _déja vu _moments but can't place her.


Postman Pat brought me that the other day. It's fabulous.


----------



## Elgarian

On behalf of the Jellied Eels, Lamprey and Edible Maggot Dining Club, I wish to complain to the moderators about the intrusion of non-relevant 'lovely soprano' material into this thread.


----------



## jhar26

-1 L'Enfent et les Sortileges
-2 The Cunning Little Vixen
-3 La Clemenza di Tito
-4 Un Ballo in Maschera
-5 Don Pasquale


----------



## jhar26

Contessa said:


> I persevered for a little but faith was already lost after the Les Troyens making the top ten affair (and I dont mean to reopen the discussion). There just werent enough voters even at the start to ensure a reliable list imune to distortion by the favourites of a handful.


It's a reliable list in that it reflects the tastes of those who participate in the poll. We never claimed any higher ambition. But if you think not enough people participate to get a reliable list you always have the option to be part of the solution and participate yourself.


----------



## Elgarian

I think it was President Bartlett (_The West Wing_), quoting somebody else (Woody Allen?), who said: "Decisions are made by those who show up."

So the list is what it is because of the people who voted for it. My only regret is that the opera _Jellied Eels_ by Lamprey Maggot never made it.


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> I think it was President Bartlett (_The West Wing_), quoting somebody else (Woody Allen?), who said: "Decisions are made by those who show up."
> 
> So the list is what it is because of the people who voted for it. My only regret is that the opera _Jellied Eels_ by Lamprey Maggot never made it.


I've always thought that _L'Escargot_ would have been a cute title for an opera. Won't any of our musician friends here write it? You could do the libretto, Alan.


----------



## Herkku

> the opera Jellied Eels by Lamprey Maggot





> L'Escargot


I would love those!


----------



## Elgarian

Herkku said:


> I would love those!


That proves you're a man of taste.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Elgarian said:


> I think it was President Bartlett (_The West Wing_), quoting somebody else (Woody Allen?), who said: "Decisions are made by those who show up."
> 
> So the list is what it is because of the people who voted for it. *My only regret is that the opera Jellied Eels by Lamprey Maggot never made it*.


:lol:

We could do some seriously disgusting Regie with that one. Calixto Bieito look to your laurels, or rotting seaweed or whatever.


----------



## Elgarian

mamascarlatti said:


> We could do some seriously disgusting Regie with that one. Calixto Bieito look to your laurels, or rotting seaweed or whatever.


Indeed. But joking aside, Maggot is a seriously underestimated composer of opera, despite his bad press. (People threw pellets at the stage at the premiere of _Slug Feast_, and his venture into operetta, _Viennese Caterpillar Waltz_ failed miserably - but only because of the excessive number of legs to be accommodated in the dance routines.)


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> Indeed. But joking aside, Maggot is a seriously underestimated composer of opera, despite his bad press. (People threw pellets at the stage at the premiere of _Slug Feast_, and his venture into operetta, _Viennese Caterpillar Waltz_ failed miserably - but only because of the excessive number of legs to be accommodated in the dance routines.)


Is this the one?










_Creators of an opera about bugs at the Indian Hill Music _
_Center in Littleton are soliciting public comments to help _
_them fine tune the production_​


----------



## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> Is this the one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Creators of an opera about bugs at the Indian Hill Music _
> _Center in Littleton are soliciting public comments to help _
> _them fine tune the production_​


:tiphat: :lol:


----------



## jflatter

The cunning little Vixen
In Ballo in Maschera
La Clemenza Di Tito
Macbeth
Don Pasquale


----------



## Elgarian

Almaviva said:


> Is this the one?


Ha! Nicely spotted!


----------



## jhar26

*RESULTS*

Un Ballo in Maschera...7/18
Don Pasquale...6/9
La Clemenza di Tito...5/15
The Cunning Little Vixen...4/16
Adriana Lecouvreur...4/13
Macbeth...4/11
La Rondine...3/11

*La Sonnambula...3/10
L'Enfant et les Sortileges...3/10*

Euryanthe...3/8
The Golden Cockerel...1/5

As you can see we have another draw which means that we're going to play a tiebreaker. 

So, which one gets your vote.....

*La Sonnambula*

or

*L'Enfant et les Sortileges*

24 hours from now I'll start counting the votes and I'll only vote myself if we have another draw.


----------



## sospiro

jhar26 said:


> Macbeth...4/11






jhar26 said:


> As you can see we have another draw which means that we're going to play a tiebreaker.
> 
> So, which one gets your vote.....
> 
> *La Sonnambula*
> 
> or
> 
> *L'Enfant et les Sortileges*
> 
> 24 hours from now I'll start counting the votes and I'll only vote myself if we have another draw.


La Sonnambula


----------



## mamascarlatti

La Sonnambula


----------



## Herkku

La Sonnambula.


----------



## Elgarian

La S...o...n...n...[yawn]...a...m...b...u...l...a ... [yawn]

ZZZzzzzzzzzz......


----------



## Elgarian

As CTP predicted, my comics are now safe.


----------



## jflatter

La Sonnambula


----------



## Almaviva

Have you all seen_ L'Enfant et les Sortilèges_? It is pretty spectacular!

So my vote goes for it, even though I know it won't win.


----------



## jhar26

*TOP 89*

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-5 Les Troyens*
*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
*11 Die Zauberflote*
*12 Carmen*
*13 Parsifal*
*14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia*
*15 Otello*
*16 Tosca*
*17 Cosi fan Tutte*
*18 Wozzeck*
*19 Salome*
*20 Lucia di Lammermoor*
*21 Lohengrin*
*22 Eugene Onegin*
*23 Aida*
*24 Les Contes d'Hoffmann*
*25 Don Carlos*
*26 Rigoletto*
*27 Elektra*
*28 Tannhauser*
*29 L'Orfeo*
*30 Moses und Aron*
*31 Norma*
*32 Boris Godunov*
*33 Fidelio*
*34 Dido and Aeneas*
*35 La Fanciulla del West*
*36 Jenufa*
*37 War and Peace*
*38 Porgy & Bess*
*39 Lulu*
*40 Ariodante*
*41 The Bartered Bride
42 Der Fliegende Hollander
43 Falstaff
44 Turandot
45 Madama Butterfly
46 Les Indes Galantes
47 Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
48 Il Trovatore
49 Simon Boccanegra
50 Peter Grimes
51 Ariadne auf Naxos
52 Manon
53 Pelleas et Melisande
54 La Damnation de Faust
55 Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
56 Alcina
57 Faust
58 The Love for Three Oranges
59 The Rake's Progress
60 Orphée et Eurydice
61 Idomeneo
62 Bluebeard's Castle
63 Cavalleria Rusticana
64 L'Elisir D'Amore
65 L'Incoronasione di Poppea
66 Der Freischutz
67 La Cenerentola
68 Hansel und Gretel
69 Pagliacci
70 Gianni Schicchi
71 Samson et Dalila
72 Capriccio
73 Rusalka
74 L'Amour de Loin
75 I Puritani
76 La Forza del Destino
77 La Fille du Regiment
78 Romeo et Juliette
79 Un Ballo in Maschera
80 Don Pasquale
81 La Clemenza di Tito
82 The Cunning Little Vixen
83 Adriana Lecouvreur
84 Macbeth
85 La Rondine
86 La Sonnambula
87 L'Enfant et les Sortileges
88 Euryanthe
89 The Golden Cockerel
*


----------



## jhar26

*NEW NOMINATION ROUND*

Please nominate your *top 10* choices of operas that are not in our top 89 listed in my previous post.


----------



## Webernite

1. Erwartung
2. Castor et Pollux
3. Die glückliche Hand
4. The Fiery Angel
5. Les Boréades
6. Les Paladins
7. Orlando
8. Daphne


----------



## mamascarlatti

Werther
Hamlet
Andrea Chenier
Ernani
Serse
Orlando
Les Boréades
Akhnaten
Pique Dame
Il Turco in Italia


----------



## Elgarian

1. Suor Angelica
2. I Capuleti e i Montecchi (Bellini)
3. Cendrillon (Massenet)
4. Mignon (Thomas)
5. Proserpine (Lully)
6. Cadmus & Hermione (Lully)
7. Louise (Charpentier)
8. Sapho (Massenet)
9. Psyche (Lully)
10.Werther


----------



## sospiro

-1. Hamlet
-2. Ernani
-3. Andrea Chénier
-4. Attila
-5. Mefistofele
-6. La Juive
-7. L'Italiana in Algeri
-8. Fedora
-9. Roberto Devereux
10. Il Corsaro


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

1. Einstein On the Beach (Glass)
2. The Turn of the Screw (Britten)
3. Nixon in China (Adams)
4. Nabucco (Verdi)
5. Le Grande Macabre (Ligeti)


----------



## Almaviva

Wow. This may be the last opportunity to get something in.
I'll have to think of this more carefully, and see whether all my favorites have made it already.
Hang on.


----------



## Almaviva

OK, so, here are some of my favorites that haven't made it yet. That's 17, and I should possibly include Pique Dame as well, which I don't like that much but acknowledge as important. That's 18. Now I have to eliminate eight:

Atys
L'Italiana in Algeri
Il Turco in Italia
La Pietra del Paragone
Roberto Devereux
Maria Stuarda
La Serva Padrona
Lucrezia Borgia
Luisa Miller
Les pêcheurs de perles
Khovanshcina
Il tabarro
Arabella
Le Rossignol
Die Tote Stadt
Bethrotal in a Monastery
The Ghosts of Versailles
Pique Dame

So, let's see:

L'Italiana in Algeri
Arabella
Roberto Devereux
Luisa Miller
Les pêcheurs de perles
Il tabarro
Le Rossignol
Die Tote Stadt
Atys
The Ghosts of Versailles

With much pain, I have eliminated eight.

So now let's give them a ranking:

1. Les pêcheurs de perles
2. Roberto Devereux
3. L'Italiana in Algeri
4. Le Rossignol
5. Atys
6. Luisa Miller
7. Arabella
8. Il tabarro
9. Die Tote Stadt
10. The Ghosts of Versailles

And let's make a case for them:

1. Les pêcheurs de perles - Jesus Almighty, folks, you mean you don't think this opera is in the top 100??? With spectacular moments like "Au fond du temple saint" and "Je crois entendre encore," an interesting story of two friends in love with the same woman, who happens to be a sacred woman, resulting in conflict, death, all that happening in an exotic land? What else do you want from an opera??

2. Roberto Devereux - So, if any of you like melody, this is the king of operas in terms of melody. This is melody overload. Death by melody!!! It's sublime!!!

3. L'Italiana in Algeri - This is such an entertaining, funny, witty opera, with such an interesting main character who happens to be a woman, which is unusual in opera! Lively, eventful, very modern for its time, in its feminism.

4. Le Rossignol - OMG, this is so beautiful! So dreamy and enchanting... and short, like a really, really good snack. Not to be missed.

5. Atys - In my opinion this is the best Lully opera. It's musicality is so enticing!

6. Luisa Miller - As good as many that have made it already, a younger Verdi, showing all the hints of future grandeur.

7. Arabella - This is a really classy, traditional sounding work, from the time Strauss had already kicked out modernism. It's sort of a blast of the past and the master did it pretty well.

8. Il tabarro - spectacular bleak drama, very avant-gard, I wonder why nobody has mentioned this before. One of the best Puccinis, a neglected masterpiece.

9. Die Tote Stadt - the last romantic... a little tacky but very daring with one and a half acts happening as a dream or hallucination. Wild stuff. Beautiful tunes.

10. The Ghosts of Versailles - an opera for opera lovers. Constains the third installment of the Figaro trilogy, and is very clever. It packs lots of punch going through different musical styles, with an opera within the opera. Come on, folks, let's show some love for contemporary works.


----------



## jhar26

-1 Medée (Charpentier - would definitely be in the top 100 if more people were familiar with it)
-2 Die Frau Ohne Schatten (Strauss)
-3 The Makropulos Case (Janacek)
-4 The Fiery Angel (Prokofiev)
-5 Arabella (Strauss)
-6 A Streetcar named Desire (Previn)
-7 Ruslan & Lyudmilla (Glinka)
-8 Armide (We need a Lully opera in the top 100)
-9 Thais (Massenet)
10 Pique Dame (Tchaikovsky)

Normally I would now start counting votes, but since a few of the regulars still haven't posted a list I'll wait another day.


----------



## Herkku

Sorry for being late!

1. I Capuleti e i Montecchi
2. Andrea Chénier
3. L'Italiana in Algeri
4. Maria Stuarda
5. Roberto Devereux
6. Anna Bolena
7. Die Königin von Saba
8. Lucrezia Borgia
9. Medea (Cherubini)
10. Werther


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

1. *Mignon*- Thomas
2. *Rienzi*- Wagner
3. *Prince Igor*- Borodin
4. *Iphigénie en Tauride*- Gluck
5. *La Gioconda*- Ponchielli
6. *La Vida Breve*- Falla (we're actually going to list 100 operas with zero Spanish-language operas.)
7. *Louise*- Charpentier
8. *Werther*- Massenet
9. *Erwartung*- Schoenberg (not a favorite- but 'recommendable' from a general music-appreciation standpoint)
10. (oh, all right- I guess I'll say) *Suor Angelica*- Puccini


----------



## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> -8 Armide (We need a Lully opera in the top 100)


This is a worrying omission, but my conscience is clear.


----------



## Elgarian

Chi_townPhilly said:


> 10. (oh, all right- I guess I'll say) *Suor Angelica*- Puccini


The cheque is in the post, along with the large box of mince pies, the case of carefully selected wines, and the Letter of Thanks from the Queen.


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> --3 Die Fledermaus (the other Strauss. Why not have at least one operetta in the top 100?)
> -8 Armide (We need a Lully opera in the top 100)


I thought we had decided not to include operettas, way back. Otherwise I'd have voted for Die Fledermaus and some Offenbach operettas.

I have supported Atys, which in my opinion is the best Lully opera.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> I thought we had decided not to include operettas, way back.


Did we? In that case I'll nominate The Makropulos Case instead.


----------



## Elgarian

Is the Lully problem caused by the fact that his operas are all of similar quality, with no one in particular standing out? So the votes are spread wide. Gaston goes for _Armide_, Alma goes for _Atys_, I go for _Psyche_, _Proserpine_, and _Cadmus_, and enjoy all three of those pretty much equally. I'm wondering if there's really much to choose between them, and that's why Lully is missing out on the list. The system is defeating him.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Elgarian said:


> Is the Lully problem caused by the fact that his operas are all of similar quality, with no one in particular standing out? So the votes are spread wide. Gaston goes for _Armide_, Alma goes for _Atys_, I go for _Psyche_, _Proserpine_, and _Cadmus_, and enjoy all three of those pretty much equally. I'm wondering if there's really much to choose between them, and that's why Lully is missing out on the list. The system is defeating him.


I think this is to a lesser extent the problem with Handel. I could nominate Serse, Rinaldo, Rodelinda, Agrippina, Hercules, Semele. I went with Serse because that's the one I just watched and am focussing on at the moment, and it contains one of his most famous arias (and has many other gorgeous contenders).


----------



## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> Is the Lully problem caused by the fact that his operas are all of similar quality, with no one in particular standing out? So the votes are spread wide. Gaston goes for _Armide_, Alma goes for _Atys_, I go for _Psyche_, _Proserpine_, and _Cadmus_, and enjoy all three of those pretty much equally. I'm wondering if there's really much to choose between them, and that's why Lully is missing out on the list. The system is defeating him.


He's too good for his own good. :lol: As Natalie says, to an extent Handel also suffers from this although he did very good I think. Rossini is another victim of the system, and even Janacek as well.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

jhar26 said:


> He's too good for his own good. :lol: As Natalie says, to an extent Handel also suffers from this although he did very good I think. Rossini is another victim of the system, and even Janacek as well.


An interesting digression- and one upon which I'd like to weigh in-

Seems many of these composers have their necessary pair placed on the list- Janácek with 'Jenufa' & 'Vixen;' Rossini with 'Barber' & 'Cenerentola;' Massenet with 'Manon' & (I think soon-to-be) 'Werther.' Lully may unfairly come out a loser in this equation... but Gluck nearly as much so. He has three operatic masterpieces that hold the boards all these centuries later (and have done so more consistently than Handel's), but it looks like we're only going to have room for one.

Thomas, too- figures to come up short. I view the failure of 'Mignon' to get more widespread traction as a victim of our hard-boiled times. My parents and grandparents are more likely to enjoy that work than my peers, it seems. Very much like Flotow's 'Martha,' which would have been a worthy add, but I didn't nominate because I knew in my gut that there was no way the 21st century crowd would coalesce to any support for 'Martha.'


----------



## Gualtier Malde

mamascarlatti said:


> I think this is to a lesser extent the problem with Handel. I could nominate Serse, Rinaldo, Rodelinda, Agrippina, Hercules, Semele. I went with Serse because that's the one I just watched and am focussing on at the moment, and it contains one of his most famous arias (and has many other gorgeous contenders).


So is there a Handel DVD you could wholeheartedly recommend as my first Handel? Please keep in mind my Eurotrash allergy.


----------



## Elgarian

Gualtier Malde said:


> So is there a Handel DVD you could wholeheartedly recommend as my first Handel? Please keep in mind my Eurotrash allergy.


I don't think there's a single person involved in these discussions who wouldn't recommend this, not only as one of the greatest Handel productions available on DVD, but as one of the greatest productions of ANY opera on DVD:










I suspect that the existence of this very production is a strong reason why _Giulio Cesare_ has done so well in our list. The downside is that if you get one, you'll be continually on the lookout for some other DVD that matches it, and will invariably be disappointed.


----------



## jhar26

*VOTING FOR POSITIONS 90-93*

"Only" four operas were nominated (our minumum) three times (or more). These operas are.....

-Werther (Massenet)
-Andrea Chenier (Giordano)
-L'Italiana in Algeri (Rossini)
-Roberto Devereux (Donizetti)

Please rank them in your order of preference.


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> I don't think there's a single person involved in these discussions who wouldn't recommend this, not only as one of the greatest Handel productions available on DVD, but as one of the greatest productions of ANY opera on DVD:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that the existence of this very production is a strong reason why _Giulio Cesare_ has done so well in our list. The downside is that if you get one, you'll be continually on the lookout for some other DVD that matches it, and will invariably be disappointed.


Of course we have all thought of this one, and it is every bit as superb as you said, but the problem is that Gualtier doesn't like any updated productions. I suspect he'll not like this.


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Of course we have all thought of this one, and it is every bit as superb as you said, but the problem is that Gualtier doesn't like any updated productions. I suspect he'll not like this.


....and the problem when it comes to recommending any Handel DVD's to Gualtier is that nearly all Handel productions on DVD ARE updated. On that Giulio Cesare it works very well (to say the least), but I'd be interested in some good 'authentic' Handel as well.


----------



## Herkku

1. L'Italiana in Algeri (Rossini)
2. Roberto Devereux (Donizetti)
3. Andrea Chenier (Giordano)
4. Werther (Massenet)


----------



## jhar26

-1 L'Italiana in Algeri
-2 Andrea Chenier

I've never heard or seen the other two.


----------



## Almaviva

1. Roberto Devereux
2. L'Italiana in Algeri
3. Andrea Chenier
4. Werther


----------



## sospiro

1. Andrea Chenier (Giordano)
2. L'Italiana in Algeri (Rossini)
3. Roberto Devereux (Donizetti)
4. Werther (Massenet)


----------



## mamascarlatti

Werther (Massenet)
Andrea Chenier (Giordano)
L'Italiana in Algeri (Rossini)
Roberto Devereux (Donizetti)


----------



## mamascarlatti

jhar26 said:


> -1 L'Italiana in Algeri
> -2 Andrea Chenier
> 
> I've never heard or seen the other two.


Please get this:










I've watched it nearly as many times as Giulio Cesare.


----------



## mamascarlatti

jhar26 said:


> ....and the problem when it comes to recommending any Handel DVD's to Gualtier is that nearly all Handel productions on DVD ARE updated. On that Giulio Cesare it works very well (to say the least), but I'd be interested in some good 'authentic' Handel as well.


Well, it is only updated to the 19th century, and the updating makes sense in terms of a colonial power invading a country whose culture is radically different from theirs. After all Alan is also very sensitive to updating and he has no hesitation in recommending it.



















The two versions of the very fine Serse are also worth considering:










This is set in the Vauxhall Gardens in period costumes from Handel's time, so in a sense there is nothing jarring. However it is sung in English (ENO) and difficult to obtain in the US, so unless you have a region-free player it might not be an option.










The front cover of this version gives a very accurate idea of the production, which is not exactly baroque but in a sense is timeless - military uniforms and long dresses in gorgeous variation of black, white and silver. The singing is very accomplished and the acting brings out the drama.

Here is a sample of the production and the singing:






Serse has nearly as many gorgeous melodies and arias as Giulio Cesare, and the story is quite amusing, with the power-mad tyrant trying and failing to have his own way and disrupting everyone's lives in the process.


----------



## Gualtier Malde

Almaviva said:


> Of course we have all thought of this one, and it is every bit as superb as you said, but the problem is that Gualtier doesn't like any updated productions. I suspect he'll not like this.


You are taking the words out of my mouth. The cover already looks highly suspicious, but I also remember reading somewhere that they updated the action to WW1, and I suspect Guilio Cesare is the gentleman more commonly known as Gaius Iulius Caesar, so they are off by a perhaps record setting close to 2000 years. 

Other suggestions for my first Handel please, or is this just a lost cause because of ubiquitous Regie infections in Baroque opera?

(Oh, I just saw there is more, thanks!)


----------



## jhar26

mamascarlatti said:


> Please get this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've watched it nearly as many times as Giulio Cesare.


Ok, thanks. I've added it to my wishlist.


----------



## jhar26

mamascarlatti said:


> This is set in the Vauxhall Gardens in period costumes from Handel's time, so in a sense there is nothing jarring.


Yes, I have that one as well. It's probably one that Gualtier could production wise live with, I agree. In terms of quality not a sensational DVD in my opinion, but definitely solid.


----------



## Gualtier Malde

mamascarlatti said:


> The front cover of this version gives a very accurate idea of the production, which is not exactly baroque but in a sense is timeless - military uniforms and long dresses in gorgeous variation of black, white and silver.


Thanks! While the singers don't really look like ancient Persians (as we know them from Hollywood), this at least doesn't look particularly offensive, so if all else fails, it might be worth a try (where are my principles?).

Generally speaking, I think one can distinguish two types of Eurotrash:

Type I ET: The director chooses a totally inappropriate and/or undefined setting, but then something resembling the original piece is played out.

Type II ET: The director throws tasteless atrocities at the audience and never lets up (such as actors vomiting on stage etc. etc., no need to go into details, as we've all been exposed to hundreds of examples). Inexplicably, this sad spectacle is accompanied by the original music. It is also _de rigeur_ to point out that the opera has now been made "relevant" to modern audiences.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Gualtier Malde said:


> Thanks! While the singers don't really look like ancient Persians (as we know them from Hollywood), this at least doesn't look particularly offensive, so if all else fails, it might be worth a try (where are my principles?).


The thing is, that I would find a production featuring ancient Persians singing florid baroque arias a bit ludicrous too, and I think this is the problems faced by Handel directors.

I think the solution reached by the Serse director works well, and there is no Eurotrash heavy-handed symbolism or general weird stuff.


----------



## jhar26

Gualtier Malde said:


> Generally speaking, I think one can distinguish two types of Eurotrash:
> 
> Type I ET: The director chooses a totally inappropriate and/or undefined setting, but then something resembling the original piece is played out.
> 
> Type II ET: The director throws tasteless atrocities at the audience and never lets up (such as actors vomiting on stage etc. etc., no need to go into details, as we've all been exposed to hundreds of examples). Inexplicably, this sad spectacle is accompanied by the original music. It is also _de rigeur_ to point out that the opera has now been made "relevant" to modern audiences.


I agree with most of what you're saying - especially when it comes to type 1 ET, but even so - it's almost impossible not to like that Giulio Cesare.


----------



## Elgarian

Almaviva said:


> Of course we have all thought of this one, and it is every bit as superb as you said, but the problem is that Gualtier doesn't like any updated productions. I suspect he'll not like this.


I understand. But of course it means he's doomed. Doomed, I tell you.


----------



## Elgarian

Gualtier Malde said:


> You are taking the words out of my mouth. The cover already looks highly suspicious, but I also remember reading somewhere that they updated the action to WW1, and I suspect Guilio Cesare is the gentleman more commonly known as Gaius Iulius Caesar, so they are off by a perhaps record setting close to 2000 years.


Natalie is right - I cannot _abide_ the anachronisms produced by updating operas, and I would fight at your side at the barricades on the matter, to the death. But that Glyndebourne _Giulio Cesare_ is so astounding as to break through even my fierce, dig-my-heels-in resistance.

I should add that I don't have a single Handel DVD apart from this one that I regard as satisfactory, let alone recommendable.


----------



## Elgarian

First time I've ever been unable to vote for the full complement, and so:

1. Werther
2. -
3. -
4. -

(Don't know the Giordano, and wouldn't be able to cope at all with the other two).


----------



## Elgarian

mamascarlatti said:


> The front cover of this version gives a very accurate idea of the production, which is not exactly baroque but in a sense is timeless - military uniforms and long dresses in gorgeous variation of black, white and silver. The singing is very accomplished and the acting brings out the drama.
> 
> Here is a sample of the production and the singing:


It's a sorry thing to have to admit, but watching this I'm forcibly reminded of the travesty of _Ariodante_ that Ann Hallenberg was partly responsible for, turning one of Handel's finest operas into one of the most colourless, leaden, and turgid productions I've ever seen. Given the overall greyness again, here, I find I just can't overcome that prejudice, seeing her now in this.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Elgarian said:


> It's a sorry thing to have to admit, but watching this I'm forcibly reminded of the travesty of _Ariodante_ that Ann Hallenberg was partly responsible for, turning one of Handel's finest operas into one of the most colourless, leaden, and turgid productions I've ever seen. Given the overall greyness again, here, I find I just can't overcome that prejudice, seeing her now in this.


I agree that it is lacking in colour, but it is very sumptous and beautiful in an understated way. And the cast is far more compelling than the Ariodante one, better singing and acting all round. Serse had me laughing at his pig-headed arrogance, and his lady love was very moving when lamenting her lot.


----------



## Elgarian

mamascarlatti said:


> I agree that it is lacking in colour, but it is very sumptous and beautiful in an understated way. And the cast is far more compelling than the Ariodante one, better singing and acting all round. Serse had me laughing at his pig-headed arrogance, and his lady love was very moving when lamenting her lot.


Natalie, you give me hope. I hereby promise not to write it off. And thanks for the heads-up about the Werther, by the way.


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> I hereby promise not to write it off.


Hmm... "not to write it off." Does this indicate that said DVD will actually enter you home and be actually watched, say, sooner than 200 years from now?


----------



## Almaviva

Gualtier Malde said:


> You are taking the words out of my mouth. The cover already looks highly suspicious, but I also remember reading somewhere that they updated the action to WW1, and I suspect Guilio Cesare is the gentleman more commonly known as Gaius Iulius Caesar, so they are off by a perhaps record setting close to 2000 years.
> 
> Other suggestions for my first Handel please, or is this just a lost cause because of ubiquitous Regie infections in Baroque opera?
> 
> (Oh, I just saw there is more, thanks!)


But the thing is, Gualtier:
Much, much, much more than the Traviata I have recommended, this Giulio Cesare like everybody here has been telling you is really very very hard to dislike. I'd say it's almost impossible to dislike. It's just too much fun. This is the production that has achieved the most universal acclaim and the most consensus that I've possibly ever seen. I'm still to encounter a single person who hasn't expressed the utmost admiration for this production.

So, if there is one, just one updated production that you might open an exception for, this is most certainly the one.

There are certain things there, though, that will stretch the limits for you. I won't deny it. But it all *works.* It works amazingly well. It is spectacularly entertaining, of the kind you don't even want to take a restroom break during it. It's the kind of thing that you start watching; at first you're just observing curiously and wondering what they're about to do, and you still find the setting a little weird for a story about a Roman emperor and Cleopatra; but then it grows on you so fast and so strongly that soon enough you have to remind yourself to push your dropped jaw back up because if a fly happens to be around, it will fly right into your mouth and you won't even notice it. At the end of it, you feel a sense of having spent some of the most interesting few hours of your life, and you keep asking yourself how on Earth did the people who put this together (producers, conductor, singers, musicians, etc) manage to get this talented - not to forget that the opera itself is A+ material!

So, give yourself a chance, buddy. This one is definitely not to be missed.


----------



## Gualtier Malde

Elgarian said:


> I cannot _abide_ the anachronisms produced by updating operas, and I would fight at your side at the barricades on the matter, to the death.


Great to have a brother-in-arms here. Bayreuth, Zurich, Salzburg, we are coming after you!



Almaviva said:


> There are certain things there, though, that will stretch the limits for you. I won't deny it. But it all *works.* It works amazingly well. It is spectacularly entertaining, of the kind you don't even want to take a restroom break during it. It's the kind of thing that you start watching; at first you're just observing curiously and wondering what they're about to do, and you still find the setting a little weird for a story about a Roman emperor and Cleopatra; but then it grows on you so fast and so strongly that soon enough you have to remind yourself to push your dropped jaw back up because if a fly happens to be around, it will fly right into your mouth and you won't even notice it. At the end of it, you feel a sense of having spent some of the most interesting few hours of your life, and you keep asking yourself how on Earth did the people who put this together (producers, conductor, singers, musicians, etc) manage to get this talented - not to forget that the opera itself is A+ material!
> 
> So, give yourself a chance, buddy. This one is definitely not to be missed.


Alright, so I did just check it on youtube, and I'm sorry to report that this just won't do it for me. Jaws remained tightly shut, and the only bodily movement I had to consciously control was a constant urge to punch and kick the monitor. (I don't remember a single note from the music because the director's antics just kept me so annoyed and distracted.)

I will admit that there's a certain aesthetic to it (perhaps) if you can put up with it, but I really want to see what Handel and his librettist had in mind, not what McVicar thinks they should have had in mind.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Gualtier Malde said:


> I will admit that there's a certain aesthetic to it (perhaps) if you can put up with it, but I really want to see what Handel and his librettist had in mind, not what McVicar thinks they should have had in mind.


You're going to have to hope that Ceci cracks out her castrati ostrich feathers for some Handel then!


----------



## mamascarlatti

It occurred to me that you might like this production from Opera Australia, which, while probably not really reflecting what Handel would have envisaged, situates the action in the time of the events described in the plot. I haven't seen it yet but it has reasonable reviews.


----------



## Almaviva

Gualtier Malde said:


> Great to have a brother-in-arms here. Bayreuth, Zurich, Salzburg, we are coming after you!
> 
> Alright, so I did just check it on youtube, and I'm sorry to report that this just won't do it for me. Jaws remained tightly shut, and the only bodily movement I had to consciously control was a constant urge to punch and kick the monitor. (I don't remember a single note from the music because the director's antics just kept me so annoyed and distracted.)
> 
> I will admit that there's a certain aesthetic to it (perhaps) if you can put up with it, but I really want to see what Handel and his librettist had in mind, not what McVicar thinks they should have had in mind.


YouTube fragments don't do it justice. Like I said, you have to let yourself be dragged (in your case, against your will) into the experience. It's a very, very long opera. If you watch a couple of YouTube segments (which will tend to be the most outrageous) you will indeed get the parts I have mentioned that will stretch the limits for you.

But if you sit and watch it in its entirety, like I said, I haven't encountered anybody yet who doesn't love it.

Oh well, I tried. I guess you'll have to die without experiencing the pleasure of watching the Glyndebourne Giulio Cesare.

It's a little less bad than if you had to die a virgin, but it's pretty close.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> YouTube fragments don't do it justice. Like I said, you have to let yourself be dragged (in your case, against your will) into the experience. It's a very, very long opera. If you watch a couple of YouTube segments (which will tend to be the most outrageous) you will indeed get the parts I have mentioned that will stretch the limits for you.
> 
> But if you sit and watch it in its entirety, like I said, I haven't encountered anybody yet who doesn't love it.
> 
> Oh well, I tried. I guess you'll have to die without experiencing the pleasure of watching the Glyndebourne Giulio Cesare.


I agree that it is pointless dipping in, and would not make sense. You have to wait for that first glorious moment when Giulio strides up the steps and surveys his subject land with swaggering self-confidence, and it all follows from there.


----------



## Herkku

mamascarlatti said:


> Please get this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've watched it nearly as many times as Giulio Cesare.


Another opinion:



Herkku said:


> I watched Massenet's Werther with Jonas Kaufmann and Sophie Koch. I am not impressed. I thoyght of writing a review of it but I am afraid that it could lead to public stoning or other unpleasant things, because he is so celebrated. In addition to this I saw in TV a Tosca with Kaufmann, Mattila and Uusitalo. Well, he was the best of this trio, but that doesn't account for much. I don't know what to think of a singer who leaves me quite untouched in "Pourquoi me réveiller, ô souffle du printemps?"
> 
> So, tell me what all the fuss is about!


And one of the replies:



sospiro said:


> You should consider yourself lucky that mamascarlatti is on safari & in an internet-free zone otherwise I think she'd be first in the stoning queue.


----------



## mamascarlatti

He he I'd never stone you Herkku. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. As far as I am concerned Kaufmann _is_ Werther and the last scene with Koch had me in a puddle on the floor.


----------



## Herkku

Nice to hear! Perhaps I have to give it another try. After all, I liked Kaufmann in Lohengrin!


----------



## Elgarian

Almaviva said:


> Hmm... "not to write it off." Does this indicate that said DVD will actually enter you home and be actually watched, say, sooner than 200 years from now?


When I enter into a contract with a DVD, there's a great deal of work to be done by the lawyers before these things can be decided; and since the whole matter is currently under negotiation, you'll appreciate that I don't want to put actual figures on the time interval at this stage, nor do I want to pre-establish whether the DVD will actually be allowed into the home, or merely left waiting on the doorstep.


----------



## Elgarian

mamascarlatti said:


> I agree that it is pointless dipping in, and would not make sense. You have to wait for that first glorious moment when Giulio strides up the steps and surveys his subject land with swaggering self-confidence, and it all follows from there.


Just endorsing what Natalie and Alma have said, here. One has to give it a chance to establish its own ambience for the thing to work, and the youtube clips don't permit that. But even then ... it's worth saying again what I've said before, that _for me_ the production works its magic _in spite of_ the updating, not because of it.


----------



## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> Just endorsing what Natalie and Alma have said, here. One has to give it a chance to establish its own ambience for the thing to work, and the youtube clips don't permit that. But even then ... it's worth saying again what I've said before, that _for me_ the production works its magic _in spite of_ the updating, not because of it.


It's useless. Gualtier is doomed. Doomed, I tell ya.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

jhar26 said:


> *VOTING FOR POSITIONS 90-93*
> 
> "Only" four operas were nominated (our minumum) three times (or more). These operas are.....
> 
> -Werther (Massenet)
> -Andrea Chenier (Giordano)
> -L'Italiana in Algeri (Rossini)
> -Roberto Devereux (Donizetti)
> 
> Please rank them in your order of preference.


*The order in which you listed them on the ballot will do just fine*(!)


----------



## Herkku

1. L'Italiana in Algeri (Rossini)
2. Roberto Devereux (Donizetti)
3. Andrea Chenier (Giordano)
4. Werther (Massenet)


----------



## Sonata

Let me just say that this is a great post, I'm getting a great idea for operas I want to look into down the road. And not just from the number on the list...I'm getting the most value from reading everyone debate for their favorites.


----------



## Gualtier Malde

Elgarian said:


> Just endorsing what Natalie and Alma have said, here. One has to give it a chance to establish its own ambience for the thing to work, and the youtube clips don't permit that. But even then ... it's worth saying again what I've said before, that _for me_ the production works its magic _in spite of_ the updating, not because of it.


It seems to me that pretty much the whole thing is on youtube (what a waste of electrons!), and, driven by the enthusiastic support here for the production, I already watched for much longer than the 10 seconds it would usually have taken to dismiss the thing. I was very much waiting for good things to happen, but of course they didn't (it felt a bit like if a good friend had recommended Ulysses to you as a fast paced action thriller, and you keep reading scratching your head what exactly he may have meant). I might also add that McVicar is of course a known repeat offender.



Almaviva said:


> It's useless. Gualtier is doomed. Doomed, I tell ya.


Quite seriously, I envy you guys with your high ET tolerance. For me, about 90% of the DVD market is off limits, and I often have to buy over-priced, low quality products just because of my ET allergy. Maybe my local psychoanalyst could help with this, or are there perhaps self-help exercises for this kind of problem ("of course Lohengrin wears a business suit, I love business suits, I love business suits, I love business suits...").


----------



## Gualtier Malde

mamascarlatti said:


> It occurred to me that you might like this production from Opera Australia, which, while probably not really reflecting what Handel would have envisaged, situates the action in the time of the events described in the plot. I haven't seen it yet but it has reasonable reviews.


Thanks! I just ran a quick background check: One amazon review calls the production "dated," which sounds very promising. However, exhibit B, the official trailer posted on youtube, clearly shows inappropriate costumes, I would perhaps award a D+ for what I can see of the staging. It might be an improvement over Glyndebourne, though.

The quest for an acceptable Handel DVD continues.


----------



## Gualtier Malde

mamascarlatti said:


> You're going to have to hope that Ceci cracks out her castrati ostrich feathers for some Handel then!


Lovely link, this looks cute. :lol:

Actually, even if your predictions above came true, that wouldn't necessarily help because Bartoli is one of the very very few cases where I'm having issues with the singing. I just can't warm to her mannerisms and over-interpretation.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Gualtier Malde said:


> Lovely link, this looks cute. :lol:
> 
> Actually, even if your predictions above came true, that wouldn't necessarily help because Bartoli is one of the very very few cases where I'm having issues with the singing. I just can't warm to her mannerisms and over-interpretation.


She is certainly an acquired taste, but I am beginning to acquire her and can even overlook the mannerisms as they are accompanied by an infectious joie de vivre and a scholarly interest in exploring forgotten but still worthy music.

I suspect the castrati were not entirely devoid of mannerisms and over-interpretation.


----------



## Elgarian

Gualtier Malde said:


> It seems to me that pretty much the whole thing is on youtube (what a waste of electrons!), and, driven by the enthusiastic support here for the production, I already watched for much longer than the 10 seconds it would usually have taken to dismiss the thing. I was very much waiting for good things to happen, but of course they didn't (it felt a bit like if a good friend had recommended Ulysses to you as a fast paced action thriller, and you keep reading scratching your head what exactly he may have meant). I might also add that McVicar is of course a known repeat offender.


Alas, Alma is right and I'm afraid you are indeed doomed. Doomed, I say!



> I envy you guys with your high ET tolerance.


Not me! Not me!


----------



## jhar26

Gualtier Malde said:


> Lovely link, this looks cute. :lol:
> 
> Actually, even if your predictions above came true, that wouldn't necessarily help because Bartoli is one of the very very few cases where I'm having issues with the singing. I just can't warm to her mannerisms and over-interpretation.


She's the world champion of making funny faces while she sings.


----------



## Herkku

How about dealing with the remaining seven? I'm listening to Meyerbeer's Dinorah, which probably wouln't stand a chance - as anything by Meyerbeer (I also got my L'Africaine on DVD and L'Africana on CD and Les Huguenots with Sutherland - an old acquaintance today) - but perhaps we could achieve an agreement on some operas that until now have got only two votes... I hope this could be accomplished before Christmas! :trp:


----------



## jhar26

*RESULTS*

L'Italiana in Algeri...16
Andrea Chenier...15
Werther...12
Roberto Devereux...11


----------



## jhar26

*TOP 93*

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro*
*-4 Giulio Cesare*
*-5 Les Troyens*
*-6 Don Giovanni*
*-7 La Traviata*
*-8 La Boheme*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg*
*11 Die Zauberflote*
*12 Carmen*
*13 Parsifal*
*14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia*
*15 Otello*
*16 Tosca*
*17 Cosi fan Tutte*
*18 Wozzeck*
*19 Salome*
*20 Lucia di Lammermoor*
*21 Lohengrin*
*22 Eugene Onegin*
*23 Aida*
*24 Les Contes d'Hoffmann*
*25 Don Carlos*
*26 Rigoletto*
*27 Elektra*
*28 Tannhauser*
*29 L'Orfeo*
*30 Moses und Aron*
*31 Norma*
*32 Boris Godunov*
*33 Fidelio*
*34 Dido and Aeneas*
*35 La Fanciulla del West*
*36 Jenufa*
*37 War and Peace*
*38 Porgy & Bess*
*39 Lulu*
*40 Ariodante*
*41 The Bartered Bride
42 Der Fliegende Hollander
43 Falstaff
44 Turandot
45 Madama Butterfly
46 Les Indes Galantes
47 Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
48 Il Trovatore
49 Simon Boccanegra
50 Peter Grimes
51 Ariadne auf Naxos
52 Manon
53 Pelleas et Melisande
54 La Damnation de Faust
55 Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
56 Alcina
57 Faust
58 The Love for Three Oranges
59 The Rake's Progress
60 Orphée et Eurydice
61 Idomeneo
62 Bluebeard's Castle
63 Cavalleria Rusticana
64 L'Elisir D'Amore
65 L'Incoronasione di Poppea
66 Der Freischutz
67 La Cenerentola
68 Hansel und Gretel
69 Pagliacci
70 Gianni Schicchi
71 Samson et Dalila
72 Capriccio
73 Rusalka
74 L'Amour de Loin
75 I Puritani
76 La Forza del Destino
77 La Fille du Regiment
78 Romeo et Juliette
79 Un Ballo in Maschera
80 Don Pasquale
81 La Clemenza di Tito
82 The Cunning Little Vixen
83 Adriana Lecouvreur
84 Macbeth
85 La Rondine
86 La Sonnambula
87 L'Enfant et les Sortileges
88 Euryanthe
89 The Golden Cockerel
90 L'Italiana in Algeri
91 Andrea Chenier
92 Werther
93 Roberto Devereux
*


----------



## jhar26

Herkku said:


> How about dealing with the remaining seven? I'm listening to Meyerbeer's Dinorah, which probably wouln't stand a chance - as anything by Meyerbeer (I also got my L'Africaine on DVD and L'Africana on CD and Les Huguenots with Sutherland - an old acquaintance today) - but perhaps we could achieve an agreement on some operas that until now have got only two votes... I hope this could be accomplished before Christmas! :trp:


Well, we had eleven operas with two nominations in the previous round. If nobody objects we could let those eleven do battle for the remaining seven spots.


----------



## sospiro

jhar26 said:


> Well, we had eleven operas with two nominations in the previous round. If nobody objects we could let those eleven do battle for the remaining seven spots.


I'll go along with that suggestion.


----------



## Herkku

So do I! I have a list ready... I mean seven operas, but yes, why not name the eleven and rate them!

I already had I Capuleti e i Montecchi, Nabucco, Arabella, Mignon, Pique Dame, Cendrillon in mind. Do they qualify?


----------



## jhar26

Herkku said:


> So do I! I have a list ready... I mean seven operas, but yes, why not name the eleven and rate them!
> 
> I already had I Capuleti e i Montecchi, Nabucco, Arabella, Mignon, Pique Dame, Cendrillon in mind. Do they qualify?


Four of them qualify, two of them don't.


----------



## jhar26

*VOTING FOR POSITIONS 94-100*

Ok, there were twelve operas that qualified actually. Anyway........

Erwartung
The Fiery Angel
Les Boreades
Orlando
Hamlet
Ernani
Pique Dame
Suor Angelica
I Capuleti e i Montecchi
Mignon
Louise
Arabella

Please rank your *TOP 5* choices from these in your order of preference.


----------



## Herkku

1. Arabella
2. I Capuleti e i Montecchi
3. Pique Dame
4. Mignon
5. Ernani

And I counted and counted and got twelve, too. And Checked and checked...


----------



## mamascarlatti

1. Hamlet
2. Pique Dame
3. Les Boreades
4. Orlando
5. Ernani


----------



## jhar26

-1 Arabella
-2 The Fiery Angel
-3 Pique Dame
-4 I Capuletti e i Montecchi
-5 Orlando


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## Webernite

1. Erwartung
2. The Fiery Angel
3. Les Boreades
4. Orlando
5. Arabella


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## Herkku

Well, we have three votes for Pique Dame already!

The French baroque seems to be all the rage nowadays, but suffers from different operas being suggested. Five out eight voters have included them in the last list of ten, but only Les Boréades has made it to the current list of eleven. I must admit that I haven't got used to the genre, perhaps because it's a completely new territory to me. I have even bought many of the DVDs recommended here, but haven't watched them. I began to watch one (don't even remember which, possibly Les Indes Galantes), but I wasn't ready yet. Some sunny day I may be converted, too.


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## Herkku

Three points to Orlando and Arabella!


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## jhar26

Herkku said:


> Well, we have three votes for Pique Dame already!
> 
> The French baroque seems to be all the rage nowadays, but suffers from different operas being suggested. Five out eight voters have included them in the last list of ten, but only Les Boréades has made it to the current list of eleven. I must admit that I haven't got used to the genre, perhaps because it's a completely new territory to me. I have even bought many of the DVDs recommended here, but haven't watched them. I began to watch one (don't even remember which, possibly Les Indes Galantes), but I wasn't ready yet. Some sunny day I may be converted, too.


I think that 100 is as far as we can go with the current voting system, but I think that maybe I have found a formula that will allow us to go beyond 100. I will try to explain it once the top 100 is in place, and if people like what I have in mind we can maybe use this formula to try to get up to 150 like they do in the symphony thread.


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## Chi_townPhilly

1. *Mignon*- Thomas
2. *Louise*- Charpentier
3. *Erwartung*- Schoenberg
4. *Suor Angelica*- Puccini
5. *I Capuleti e i Montecchi*- Bellini


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## sospiro

-1 Hamlet
-2 Ernani
-3 I Capuleti e i Montecchi
-4 Suor Angeica
-5 Mignon


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## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> *VOTING FOR POSITIONS 94-100*
> 
> Ok, there were twelve operas that qualified actually. Anyway........
> 
> Erwartung
> The Fiery Angel
> Les Boreades
> Orlando
> Hamlet
> Ernani
> Pique Dame
> Suor Angelica
> I Capuleti e i Montecchi
> Mignon
> Louise
> Arabella
> 
> Please rank your *TOP 5* choices from these in your order of preference.


1. Arabella
2. Pique Dame
3. I Capuleti e i Montecchi
4. Louise
5. Ernani


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## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> I think that 100 is as far as we can go with the current voting system, but I think that maybe I have found a formula that will allow us to go beyond 100. I will try to explain it once the top 100 is in place, and if people like what I have in mind we can maybe use this formula to try to get up to 150 like they do in the symphony thread.


Maybe we should pause, enjoy and discuss the result before we try to get any farther.


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## Elgarian

1. Suor Angelica
2. I Capuleti e i Montecchi
3. Mignon
4. Louise
5. Arabella


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## Herkku

Three or more nominations, when eight members have given their votes:

I Capuleti e i Montecchi	6
Arabella 5
Ernani 4
Pique Dame 4
Mignon 4
Orlando 3
Suor Angelica	3
Louise 3


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## jflatter

I capuleti
Ernani
Orlando
Arabella
Suor Angelica


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## jhar26

*RESULTS*

The first seven are the operas that have made the cut

I Capuleti e i Montecchi...7/22
Arabella....6/19
Ernani...5/11
Pique Dame...4/14
Mignon....4/11
Suor Angelica...4/10
Orlando...4/8

Louise...3/8
Hamlet...2/10
Erwartung...2/8
The Fiery Angel...2/8
Les Boreades....2/6

End result coming up!


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## Herkku

Eagerly waiting!


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## jhar26

*TOP 100*

*-1 Der Ring des Nibelungen (Wagner)*
*-2 Tristan und Isolde (Wagner)*
*-3 Le Nozze di Figaro (Mozart)*
*-4 Giulio Cesare (Handel)*
*-5 Les Troyens (Berlioz)*
*-6 Don Giovanni (Mozart)*
*-7 La Traviata (Verdi)*
*-8 La Boheme (Puccini)*
*-9 Der Rosenkavalier (Strauss)*
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg (Wagner)*
*11 Die Zauberflote (Mozart)*
*12 Carmen (Bizet)*
*13 Parsifal (Wagner)*
*14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini)*
*15 Otello (Verdi)*
*16 Tosca (Puccini)*
*17 Cosi fan Tutte (Mozart)*
*18 Wozzeck (Berg)*
*19 Salome (Strauss)*
*20 Lucia di Lammermoor (Donizetti)*
*21 Lohengrin (Wagner)*
*22 Eugene Onegin (Tchaikovsky)*
*23 Aida (Verdi)*
*24 Les Contes d'Hoffmann (Offenbach)*
*25 Don Carlos (Verdi)*
*26 Rigoletto (Verdi)*
*27 Elektra (Strauss)*
*28 Tannhauser (Wagner)*
*29 L'Orfeo (Monteverdi)*
*30 Moses und Aron (Schoenberg)*
*31 Norma (Bellini)*
*32 Boris Godunov (Mussorgsky)*
*33 Fidelio (Beethoven)*
*34 Dido and Aeneas (Purcell)*
*35 La Fanciulla del West (Puccini)*
*36 Jenufa (Janacek)*
*37 War and Peace (Prokofiev)*
*38 Porgy & Bess (Gershwin)*
*39 Lulu (Berg)*
*40 Ariodante (Handel)*
*41 The Bartered Bride (Smetana)
42 Der Fliegende Hollander (Wagner)
43 Falstaff (Verdi)
44 Turandot (Puccini)
45 Madama Butterfly (Puccini)
46 Les Indes Galantes (Rameau)
47 Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail (Mozart)
48 Il Trovatore (Verdi)
49 Simon Boccanegra (Verdi)
50 Peter Grimes (Britten)
51 Ariadne auf Naxos (Strauss)
52 Manon (Massenet)
53 Pelleas et Melisande (Debussy)
54 La Damnation de Faust (Berlioz)
55 Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk (Shostakovich)
56 Alcina (Handel)
57 Faust (Gounod)
58 The Love for Three Oranges (Prokofiev)
59 The Rake's Progress(Stravinsky)
60 Orphée et Eurydice (Gluck)
61 Idomeneo (Mozart)
62 Bluebeard's Castle (Bartok)
63 Cavalleria Rusticana (Mascagni)
64 L'Elisir D'Amore (Donizetti)
65 L'Incoronasione di Poppea (Monteverdi)
66 Der Freischutz (Weber)
67 La Cenerentola (Rossini)
68 Hansel und Gretel (Humperdinck)
69 Pagliacci (Leoncavallo)
70 Gianni Schicchi (Puccini)
71 Samson et Dalila (Saint-Saens)
72 Capriccio (Strauss)
73 Rusalka (Dvorak)
74 L'Amour de Loin (Saariaho)
75 I Puritani (Bellini)
76 La Forza del Destino (Verdi)
77 La Fille du Regiment (Donizetti)
78 Romeo et Juliette (Gounod)
79 Un Ballo in Maschera (Verdi)
80 Don Pasquale (Donizetti)
81 La Clemenza di Tito (Mozart)
82 The Cunning Little Vixen (Janacek)
83 Adriana Lecouvreur (Cilea)
84 Macbeth (Verdi)
85 La Rondine (Puccini)
86 La Sonnambula (Bellini)
87 L'Enfant et les Sortileges (Ravel)
88 Euryanthe (Weber)
89 The Golden Cockerel (Rimsky-Korsakov)
90 L'Italiana in Algeri (Rossini)
91 Andrea Chenier Giordano)
92 Werther (Massenet)
93 Roberto Devereux (Donizetti)
94 I Capuleti e i Montecchi (Bellini)
95 Arabella (Strauss)
96 Ernani (Verdi)
97 Pique Dame (Tchaikovsky)
98 Mignon (Thomas)
99 Suor Angelica (Puccini)
100 Orlando (Handel)
*


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## Elgarian

Fantastic. Heartfelt thanks to Gaston for making it even possible, and for steering us so magnificently in the right directions; and thanks to everyone who chipped in with votes and comments, and made it all such engrossing fun.


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## Herkku

So, we made it before Christmas! Thanks, jhar26 and all who took part!

In my current craze for bel canto I'm happy that 11 bel canto operas made it to the list, and even The Golden Cockerel. Poor Meyerbeer didn't, but I guess everyone would have had their own favs that got left out. Like my Die Königin von Saba, of which there is only one studio recording, not generally available and perhaps not even very good.


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## jflatter

Can the moderators, store the list in an untouchable place (so it doesn't get lost with threads being added) where it can be easily accessed by members for future reference. Plus will this be up for review in a year or two? Who knows the new opera on Anna Nicole Smith which is being premiered in London in the spring might make it!!


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## jhar26

jflatter said:


> Can the moderators, store the list in an untouchable place (so it doesn't get lost with threads being added) where it can be easily accessed by members for future reference.


Yes, we'll do that a few days from now after we're finished discussing these results. It's better to do that on the thread where the contest took place.


> Plus will this be up for review in a year or two? Who knows the new opera on Anna Nicole Smith which is being premiered in London in the spring might make it!!


I think we'll do this every year actually. Next time it will be easier. This time we did do a lot of improvising, constantly changing and adjusting the rules, but now we know what works and what doesn't so things should go a lot smoother next time.


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## Air

*Thank you jhar26 and everyone else for the fun!* :tiphat:

I regret that I was not able to participate in the later rounds of the game, simply because of the fact that I've only started listening to opera recently and thus am not as well-versed as some of you are. But this list is a great reference for everyone, not just beginners. I'm sure that even the most experienced opera listeners can find something on the list that they've not heard (or in many cases, passed over)!

Here's another way to look at things:

1.	Verdi: 12 (7, 15, 23, 25, 26, 43, 48, 49, 76, 79, 84, 96)
2.	Puccini: 8 (8, 16, 35, 44, 45, 70, 85, 99)
3.	Wagner: 7 (1, 2, 10, 13, 21, 28, 42)
4.	Mozart: 7 (3, 6, 11, 17, 47, 61, 81)
5.	Strauss: 6 (9, 19, 27, 51, 72, 95)
6.	Donizetti: 5 (20, 64, 77, 80, 93)
7.	Handel: 4 (4, 40, 56, 100)
8.	Bellini: 4 (31, 75, 86, 94)
9.	Rossini: 3 (14, 67, 90)
10.	Berg: 2 (18, 39)
11.	Berlioz: 2 (5, 54)
12.	Monteverdi: 2 (29, 65)
13.	Prokofiev: 2 (37, 58)
14.	Janacek: 2 (36, 82)
15.	Tchaikovsky: 2 (22, 97)
16.	Gounod: 2 (57, 78)
17.	Massenet: 2 (52, 92)
18.	Weber: 2 (66, 88)
19.	Bizet: 1 (12)
20.	Schoenberg: 1 (30)
21.	Mussorgsky: 1 (32)
22.	Purcell: 1 (34)
23.	Gershwin: 1 (38)
24.	Smetana: 1 (41)
25.	Rameau: 1 (46)
26.	Britten: 1 (50)
27.	Debussy: 1 (53)
28.	Shostakovich: 1 (55)
29.	Stravinsky: 1 (59)
30.	Gluck: 1 (60)
31.	Bartok: 1 (62)
32.	Mascagni: 1 (63)
33.	Humperdinck: 1 (68)
34.	Leoncavallo: 1 (69)
35.	Saint-Saens: 1 (71)
36.	Saariaho: 1 (74)
37.	Dvorak: 1 (73)
38.	Cilea: 1 (83)
39.	Ravel: 1 (87)
40.	Rimsky-Korsakov: 1 (89)
41.	Giordano: 1 (91)
42.	Thomas: 1 (98)

Of course, this list isn't meant as a serious ranking of anything, but more as a statistical analysis. Such an analysis would definitely look different as we take into account more and more operas. For example, I'm pretty sure Rameau would shoot up, as would someone like Britten. 12 Verdi and 9 Puccini operas is quite surprising though! Probably if the Ring was split and points were awarded for higher entries (Ring: 1, Tristan: 2) than Wagner would easily have the most "points" (if that even means anything ).

Anyhow, this is just a little something for the list-crazy people like me.


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## jhar26

Air said:


> Here's another way to look at things:
> 
> 1.	Verdi: 12 (7, 15, 23, 25, 26, 43, 48, 49, 76, 79, 84, 96)
> 2.	Puccini: 8 (8, 16, 35, 44, 45, 70, 85, 99)
> 3.	Wagner: 7 (1, 2, 10, 13, 21, 28, 42)
> 4.	Mozart: 7 (3, 6, 11, 17, 47, 61, 81)
> 5.	Strauss: 6 (9, 19, 27, 51, 72, 95)
> 6.	Donizetti: 5 (20, 64, 77, 80, 93)
> 7.	Handel: 4 (4, 40, 56, 100)
> 8.	Bellini: 4 (31, 75, 86, 94)
> 9.	Rossini: 3 (14, 67, 90)
> 10.	Berg: 2 (18, 39)
> 11.	Berlioz: 2 (5, 54)
> 12.	Monteverdi: 2 (29, 65)
> 13.	Prokofiev: 2 (37, 58)
> 14.	Janacek: 2 (36, 82)
> 15.	Tchaikovsky: 2 (22, 97)
> 16.	Gounod: 2 (57, 78)
> 17.	Massenet: 2 (52, 92)
> 18.	Weber: 2 (66, 88)
> 19.	Bizet: 1 (12)
> 20.	Schoenberg: 1 (30)
> 21.	Mussorgsky: 1 (32)
> 22.	Purcell: 1 (34)
> 23.	Gershwin: 1 (38)
> 24.	Smetana: 1 (41)
> 25.	Rameau: 1 (46)
> 26.	Britten: 1 (50)
> 27.	Debussy: 1 (53)
> 28.	Shostakovich: 1 (55)
> 29.	Stravinsky: 1 (59)
> 30.	Gluck: 1 (60)
> 31.	Bartok: 1 (62)
> 32.	Mascagni: 1 (63)
> 33.	Humperdinck: 1 (68)
> 34.	Leoncavallo: 1 (69)
> 35.	Saint-Saens: 1 (71)
> 36.	Saariaho: 1 (74)
> 37.	Dvorak: 1 (73)
> 38.	Cilea: 1 (83)
> 39.	Ravel: 1 (87)
> 40.	Rimsky-Korsakov: 1 (89)
> 41.	Giordano: 1 (91)
> 42.	Thomas: 1 (98)


Very interesting, thanks. The guys you'd expect to do well have done so. I'm glad that our top 100 is a well rounded list in terms of all the different periods, genres and languages that are covered. I think we did ok and I would like to thank all the people who participated in the voting.

There are always some surprising omissions on these lists, but nothing absolutely essential has been left out in my opinion. One could make a case for Meyerbeer and Lully, and I feel that Charpentier's "Medée" - maybe with the possible exception of Monteverdi's creations - the best opera from the 17th century would have deserved a ranking.

The absence of Puccini's "Manon Lescaut" is maybe the biggest surprise to me. I don't think that anyone even nominated it at any point of the contest and I admit that I overlooked it myself even though I really like it. Maybe next time. And congrats to Verdi. "I Vespri Sicilliani" in the only one of his mature operas that didn't make the list.


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## emiellucifuge

Woohooo, I like it and will be glad to refer to this in future explorations!

I agree with jflatter, perhaps we could create a sticky for these lists in each subforum and replace them after each year?


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## Almaviva

Great job, Gaston, I am very content with the end result, and the whole process was lots of fun.
Thanks for taking the time to think this through and for going through the painstaking steps of getting all the votes counted.
I'm already a little nostalgic... it's over for now...

In terms of the results, yes, some notable works were left out, but it's the nature of the beast. Since there are more than 100 recommended operas out there, it is inevitable that some worthy examples were left out.

About the composers and how many of their operas made it, we should also look at the data in terms of what percentage of their works made it. Berg, for instance, placed two operas in the top ten, but he only composed two operas, so he got 100% of them in.


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## Almaviva

Air said:


> I'm sure that even the most experienced opera listeners can find something on the list that they've not heard (or in many cases, passed over)!


I haven't seen four of these 100. I'll make a point of getting to know them soon. I have a ticked for one of them, I've ordered another one but it hasn't arrived yet, and I'll make sure to catch the other two in the next few weeks.


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## Herkku

Puccini's Manon Lescaut is indeed a surprising omission that didn't even occur to me until I read your message, jhar26! I used to like it much more than Massenet's Manon before I saw Netrebko on DVD! Oh, and then there were the two rivalling Medées/Medeas: Charpentier's and Cherubini's. I'm still waiting for my perfect Medea on DVD (or on CD) to appear, but I like the music - perhaps more than it really merits. Antonacci just didn't work for me. Callas conducted by Bernstein was electrifying, but the recording is atrocious soundwise. When CDs appeared and there weren't so many operas to choose from, I purchased Charpentier's Medée, but the French baroque didn't appeal to me, and it still doesn't, even if the DVD gives us a fair picture of the spectacles involved.


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## Gualtier Malde

Almaviva said:


> I haven't seen four of these 100.


Oh, more or less like me, I haven't seen 70 of these 100 (exact count, but give or take 2 since there are some borderline cases; by "have not seen" I mean have not seen the complete work). So I might stick around here for a little while longer.
Also, I'd like to join everyone else in congratulating ourselves (and especially the moderator) on our sterling work.


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## sospiro

This has been great fun and I have learned so much. There are lots I don't know but the enthusiasm has inspired me to explore the embarrassing gaps in my knowledge. 

:tiphat:

Thanks everyone & especially to jhar26 for all his hard work & for his good humour & patience.


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## Elgarian

And I'd like to add that if Lully doesn't get in next time, I'll break all the heads off my toy soldiers.

Just saying.


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## Almaviva

Gualtier Malde said:


> Oh, more or less like me, I haven't seen 70 of these 100 (exact count, but give or take 2 since there are some borderline cases; by "have not seen" I mean have not seen the complete work). So I might stick around here for a little while longer.
> Also, I'd like to join everyone else in congratulating ourselves (and especially the moderator) on our sterling work.


Well, mathematically speaking, 4 and 70 are in the same order of magnitude, both in the 100s when compared to the number of atoms in the universe.


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## Geronimo

Very useful list. There are a lot of operas on it that I don't know yet. So I know what to listen to in 2011.


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## Almaviva

Elgarian said:


> And I'd like to add that if Lully doesn't get in next time, I'll break all the heads off my toy soldiers.
> 
> Just saying.


Your toy soldiers are pleading their case: "Please, no, commander! There is no Lully but at least there is Lulu!"


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## Lipatti

Congratulations on this great job. I hope the final list stays at the top of the front page of the opera forum for some time to come - it will be of great use as a quick reference guide to many of those (me) who are new to opera and want to explore further.


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## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> I haven't seen four of these 100.


I haven't seen 18(!!!) of them. The ones with the **** behind them are the operas of which I have DVD's (or in the case of Peter Grimes a cd set) that are still on the unwatched pile.

10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg (Wagner)****
13 Parsifal (Wagner)****
18 Wozzeck (Berg)
30 Moses und Aron (Schoenberg)
32 Boris Godunov (Mussorgsky)
37 War and Peace (Prokofiev)****
39 Lulu (Berg)
40 Ariodante (Handel)
41 The Bartered Bride (Smetana)****
50 Peter Grimes (Britten)****
53 Pelleas et Melisande (Debussy)
59 The Rake's Progress(Stravinsky)****
66 Der Freischutz (Weber)
82 The Cunning Little Vixen (Janacek)
88 Euryanthe (Weber)
92 Werther (Massenet)****
93 Roberto Devereux (Donizetti)
98 Mignon (Thomas)


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## mamascarlatti

jhar26 said:


> I haven't seen 18(!!!) of them. The ones with the **** behind them are the operas of which I have DVD's (or in the case of Peter Grimes a cd set) that are still on the unwatched pile.


I was too embarrassed to 'fess up about my gaps but I feel better now! I haven't seen 14, like Gaston I've indicated where I have a DVD in my UWP ****. We definitely have quite a lot of overlap!

13 Parsifal (Wagner) ****
18 Wozzeck (Berg)
27 Elektra (Strauss) 
30 Moses und Aron (Schoenberg)
32 Boris Godunov (Mussorgsky)
53 Pelleas et Melisande (Debussy) ****
55 Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk (Shostakovich) ****
62 Bluebeard's Castle (Bartok)
72 Capriccio (Strauss) ****
87 L'Enfant et les Sortileges (Ravel) ****
88 Euryanthe (Weber)
89 The Golden Cockerel (Rimsky-Korsakov) ****
95 Arabella (Strauss) ****
98 Mignon (Thomas)

Wozzeck and Boris are in the local library, and Euryanthe and Elektra are on my Amazon wishlist.


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## jhar26

Yes, I expect myself to do a lot of checking out reviews on the new subforum to find good DVD's of the ones that are missing from my collection.


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## Almaviva

The ones I haven't seen or heard:
Capriccio - I have tickets for the Met in HD presentation later this year and I've been avoiding it because I want a full surprise.
Ernani - Got it from Netflix, they've sent it already to my home in the USA, I'm in Brazil now so I'll watch it when I go back.
Mignon - I have ordered it from Premier Opera. It hasn't arrived yet.
Orlando - this one I'll have to buy.


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## Almaviva

I've seen Mignon and Ernani (actually when I saw it, I realized that I knew it already but had forgotten), and have just purchased Orlando. Soon, I'll have seen all 100.


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## myaskovsky2002

*Lol*

This is waste of time....

Mene vado.

Martino

:lol:


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## Almaviva

myaskovsky2002 said:


> This is waste of time....
> 
> Mene vado.
> 
> Martino
> 
> :lol:


There you go resurrecting old threads again.
And why is it a waste of time? That's exactly what you do, as well. You post several lists and rankings of Russian operas.


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## myaskovsky2002

*a palabras electrizadas, oidos desenchufados....*



> There you go resurrecting old threads again.
> And why is it a waste of time? That's exactly what you do, as well. You post several lists and rankings of Russian operas.


I am who I am....You can say you like a,b,c...and I will say I like d,e,f...sombody else...g,h,i.

What is the point? Can we discuss TASTES...Are we playing to say...Lalala...My tastes are better than yours...la-la-la...Like children?

When you speak about German operas, or Austrian, Russian or Chinese...we can concentrate our discussion in a few composers...This one is unlimited. That is my opinion, I don't know why you want to go against that. You don't respect opinions? You really like to argue...You won't live very long. LOL

I'll kill you!






Enjoy!

Martin, terrorist!


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## Almaviva

No, Martin, these lists are just recommendations, and we have good jolly fun while we make them.
I suggest that if you don't like the list threads, then don't click on them. Simple, no?


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## existential

Hello all,

I'm new here (although a long time lurker) and have developed an interest in Opera (within the last six months or so).

So by no means am I an expert, but I would like to add my 'two cents' and suggest Benjamin Britten's *Peter Grimes.*

I understand that many people find fault with Britten's operas; I've heard them described as everything from 'tuneless' to 'boring' but of all the operas I've seen (only about ten!) Peter Grimes hit me the hardest.

While the music is never exactly going to rival Puccini in terms of 'catchiness', it complements the tragic, chilling and sophisticated story beautifully.

Anyway, just thought I'd stop by and make a little contribution  when I have seen a few more operas I will hopefully have some more suggestions!


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## mamascarlatti

existential said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I'm new here (although a long time lurker) and have developed an interest in Opera (within the last six months or so).
> 
> So by no means am I an expert, but I would like to add my 'two cents' and suggest Benjamin Britten's *Peter Grimes.*
> 
> I understand that many people find fault with Britten's operas; I've heard them described as everything from 'tuneless' to 'boring' but of all the operas I've seen (only about ten!) Peter Grimes hit me the hardest.
> 
> While the music is never exactly going to rival Puccini in terms of 'catchiness', it complements the tragic, chilling and sophisticated story beautifully.
> 
> Anyway, just thought I'd stop by and make a little contribution  when I have seen a few more operas I will hopefully have some more suggestions!


Hi there existential, welcome to the forum, look forward to your contributions.

Peter Grimes came in at number 50 in our "Talk Classical Top 100 Most Recommended Operas" thread, so there are others here who share your enthusiasm.


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## Almaviva

existential said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I'm new here (although a long time lurker) and have developed an interest in Opera (within the last six months or so).
> 
> So by no means am I an expert, but I would like to add my 'two cents' and suggest Benjamin Britten's *Peter Grimes.*
> 
> I understand that many people find fault with Britten's operas; I've heard them described as everything from 'tuneless' to 'boring' but of all the operas I've seen (only about ten!) Peter Grimes hit me the hardest.
> 
> While the music is never exactly going to rival Puccini in terms of 'catchiness', it complements the tragic, chilling and sophisticated story beautifully.
> 
> Anyway, just thought I'd stop by and make a little contribution  when I have seen a few more operas I will hopefully have some more suggestions!


Hi, existential, welcome to the forum. This thread is still here just for historical purposes, to include the content of the discussions that resulted in our Top 100 Recommended Operas list, which you can consult in the sticky thread - the first one that shows up when you click on the Opera forum. The process for this year has already been completed. Peter Grimes was ranked 50th most recommended opera, a honorable position. I like it very much. The list will be revised yearly, but independently of the list, you can contribute to many other threads. Do stick around, and post at will. We're a friendly community and we welcome more members!


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