# For Love of Early Music



## Taggart

By early music I mean anything pre 1600. Usually starting after 1100, but Jordi Savall and others can find some good stuff before that.

There is already a group for Early Music - https://www.talkclassical.com/groups/early-birds.html .

This is a thread where we can discuss our favourite pieces and present new discoveries.

I got into classical music from folk and then from David Munrow.


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## Ingélou

I love early music, but I admit I'm more into dance music than church music. I love the 'beautifully ordered' renaissance style - Byrd and Dowland - and in our vinyl days, this LP was something I played a great deal.


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## Ingélou

I'm an ex-teacher, and can't escape my love of lists. Here are two that seem relevant -

names in medieval music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medieval_composers

& composers from the Renaissance era - 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Renaissance_composers

I am committed to my baroque listening project, but I will certainly be doing an aural sashay or two though these lists.

 - Because as in every other area of classical music, I have lots of gaps in my knowledge, and I hope to improve. I know that I can learn a lot from this thread - I know there are a lot of people on TC who know about early music. :tiphat:

So thanks, OP! :kiss:


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## Mandryka

I've been listening to this today (It's Mary Berry)






and here's the same piece of music interpreted in all seriousness about truth to Abelard's intentions, by a different scholar (Thomas Binkley). You'll now start to see some of the issues which makes early music unique -- turning the score into sound is not straightforward


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## SONNET CLV

I thought this might be a thread about music to accompany breakfast. Oh well ...

Still, I do like Hildegaard von Bingen, but not with my morning coffee and donuts.


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## Guest

I'm quite a fan of the stuff you find in Codex Chantilly






And, of course, I'm a huge Machaut fan. This is probably my favourite performance of the Messe de Notre Dame:


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## Jacck

Guiot de Dijon (13th c.) - a French trouvère
interesting music
Chanterai por mon coraige


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## Jacck

"Hospodine, pomiluj ny!"
the oldest Czech spiritual song - from 1055
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospodine,_pomiluj_ny


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## Ingélou

SONNET CLV said:


> I thought this might be a thread about music to accompany breakfast. Oh well ...
> 
> Still, I do like Hildegaard von Bingen, but not with my morning coffee and donuts.


Try a bransle with the bran flakes. :tiphat:






Darling Praetorius - how I love thee! :kiss:


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## Guest

SONNET CLV said:


> I thought this might be a thread about music to accompany breakfast. Oh well ...
> 
> Still, I do like Hildegaard von Bingen, but not with my morning coffee and donuts.


As the first entry in the "Strange But True" category for this particular thread let me present this as my first contribution which I shall dedicate to Sonnet CLV -

"*Wake Up To Early Music*" - (it's a dedicated channel spotlighting the Blue Heron Renaissance Group)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPLhgehI5UVYm8ZQG2X-SeQ

This is one of my favourites which is taken from their first cd (now out of print but a week away from being resurrected as part of a 5 cd release -

"*Ave Maria dive matris Anne*" by Hugh Aston (c.1485-c.1558)-






This link leads to a website entitled - "*Early Music Review - the Home of HIP Opinion*"

http://earlymusicreview.com/


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## Manxfeeder

The nice thing about early music is, its best recordings are coming out now. The trouble with composers like Brahms and Beethoven is, the greatest conductors and recordings aren't always the best recorded/engineered because of when they were recorded. But with early music, every year new discoveries are being made and new groups are forming with new passion for this era.

I'm a fan of sacred music in general and particularly from this era. I don't much care for contemporary Christian music as a whole - though there are bright spots, generally it's repetitive, boring, generic, and mass-produced - and since it seems like the church world has swallowed that genre up, several years ago, just to keep my spirituality intact, I discovered classical sacred music. There is a ton of incredible music from the pre-1600 era, and it is spiritually uplifting, at least for me.

Here is one of my favorite pieces, William Byrd's Ave Verum. It is so simple, but to my ears, it's simply perfect.


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## Ingélou

Manxfeeder said:


> The nice thing about early music is, its best recordings are coming out now. The trouble with composers like Brahms and Beethoven is, the greatest conductors and recordings aren't always the best recorded/engineered because of when they were recorded. But with early music, every year new discoveries are being made and new groups are forming with new passion for this era.
> 
> I'm a fan of sacred music in general and particularly from this era. I don't much care for contemporary Christian music as a whole - though there are bright spots, generally it's repetitive, boring, generic, and mass-produced - and since it seems like the church world has swallowed that genre up, several years ago, just to keep my spirituality intact, I discovered classical sacred music. There is a ton of incredible music from the pre-1600 era, and it is spiritually uplifting, at least for me.
> 
> Here is one of my favorite pieces, William Byrd's Ave Verum. It is so simple, but to my ears, it's simply perfect.


:tiphat: Manxfeeder - I hadn't heard this before. It is beautiful. I am a big fan of William Byrd's music, and a big fan of William Byrd's character for standing up to the task of being a Catholic in Elizabethan England.

And who that has heard or seen them wouldn't be a fan of The Sixteen? Even the way they walk on and off stage is perfect.

Despite doing Latin A-level nearly fifty years ago, I needed a translation, so in case anyone else did too -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ave_verum_corpus

http://www.users.on.net/~algernon/aveverum/translation.html


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## eugeneonagain

Manxfeeder said:


> Here is one of my favorite pieces, William Byrd's Ave Verum. It is so simple, but to my ears, it's simply perfect.


I listen to far less sacred music, but this had me transfixed. Its simplicity, as you mentioned, really enhances its power. Tranquil, yet powerful at the same time.


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## Jacck

Guillaume Dufay - O Gemma Lux




this is fantastic music ! the transition from late Middle Ages to Rainessance


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> And who that has heard or seen them wouldn't be a fan of The Sixteen? Even the way they walk on and off stage is perfect.
> 
> [/url]


Too blended and not enough bass. Try King's Singers or Cardinall's Musick or maybe Stile Antico.


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> I love early music, but I admit I'm more into dance music than church music. I love the 'beautifully ordered' renaissance style - Byrd and Dowland - and in our vinyl days, this LP was something I played a great deal.
> [/IMG]


Don't you play violin? Anyway, maybe you'll get some joy out of this which came out a few months ago. In truth it's not my thing.

View attachment 108408


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## SONNET CLV

Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> As the first entry in the "Strange But True" category for this particular thread let me present this as my first contribution which I shall dedicate to Sonnet CLV -
> 
> "*Wake Up To Early Music*" - (it's a dedicated channel spotlighting the Blue Heron Renaissance Group)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPLhgehI5UVYm8ZQG2X-SeQ
> 
> This is one of my favourites which is taken from their first cd (now out of print but a week away from being resurrected as part of a 5 cd release -
> 
> "*Ave Maria dive matris Anne*" by Hugh Aston (c.1485-c.1558)-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This link leads to a website entitled - "*Early Music Review - the Home of HIP Opinion*"
> 
> http://earlymusicreview.com/


I'm going for my coffee and donuts!


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## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> Too blended and not enough bass. Try King's Singers or Cardinall's Musick or maybe Stile Antico.


Okay, I was wrong. Not everyone is a fan of the Sixteen. But I like them, anyway. :tiphat:

The Sixteen here sing a Credo by Byrd.






~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PS - I just read your other post. Thanks for the thought, but I can't access the link - it won't let me.

I have played some early music with my fiddle teacher; he's an HIP professional violinist/violist whose first degree (at Edinburgh) was in Early Music. I found it challenging, especially as regards the time schemes which were so often 'not what I expected', but it was very enjoyable as the tunes were so beautiful. Maybe if we ever do manage to move to York, I'll be able to take it further, as the Early Music Centre is there and I once met someone who holds early music workshops in York.


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## Ras

*Henri de Bailly (French Renaissance composer)*

I was blown away when I heard a song by the *French Renaissance composer Henri du Bailly on a recording by Jordi Savall.
*It was a Spanish air - *"Yo soy la locura, la que sola infundo" which can be found on Savall's Cervantes recording.
*I searched and found out that du Bailly composed a lot of music but only three songs survived. 
So where can I hear the other two songs by du Bailly?

Wiki in French says he was a singer, composer and lutenist... so maybe he was sort of a French John Dowland...














The English Wikipedia site has a short entry about de Bailly:
>>Henri de Bailly (died October 1637) was a French composer. Originally a singer in the chapelle royale of Henri IV, he was elevated to Surintendant de la musique in 1622 by Louis XIII, and at the same time raised to the nobility. <<

French Wiki is more thorough : 
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Le_Bailly

Motet de Henry Le Bailly en tablature de lyre (Paris, 1636).:


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## Taggart

Was just checking about de Bailly when I rediscovered this https://www.earlymusicsources.com/home in my bookmarks. It's a great resource for early music.


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## Guest

Manxfeeder said:


> The nice thing about early music is, its best recordings are coming out now.


I would respectfully disagree about the time line in regards to the release of the best recordings.

The mid '70s to mid 80's saw the arrival of Schola Antiqua, The Medieval Ensemble Of London, New London Consort with the incomparable Catherine Bott, The Consort of Musicke, the London Cornett & Sackbut Ensemble (est. 1970) - not to be confused with the English Cornett & Sackbut Ensemble (est. 1993), solo recordings by Christopher Hogwood and his work as a conductor for the Academy of Ancient Music.

I would have loved to have been able to be in London during this vibrant time frame to see these musicians in their prime but thankfully each has left behind a substantial legacy of recordings which were initially released and then remastered and re-released on the L'Oiseau-Lyre label which is now under the auspices of Decca.

Unfortunately 95% of all L'Oiseau-Lyre releases are being blocked in Canada and I'm unable to provide links to a catalog with a hundred plus recordings which makes it difficult to bring them to the attention of those who frequent this thread.

L'Oiseau-Lyre is the premier label for many of the recordings which would form the foundation of this thread and the inability to post links which would provide examples to support our posts is problematic.

This is the YouTube link for The Medieval Ensemble of London -






which features 63 tracks - with all but half a dozen or so blocked in Canada.

If they're only blocked in Canada and not the UK or US then the solution is simply to post the link and carry on but if they're also being blocked in the UK or US then it's pointless to use them within the posts. Thus if someone from a place that is "anywhere but Canada" can tell us of their experiences when attempting to view videos from any of the artists that I listed in the second paragraph I would appreciate knowing what the results might be.


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## premont

Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> This is the YouTube link for The Medieval Ensemble of London -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> which features 63 tracks - with all but half a dozen or so blocked in Canada.
> 
> If they're only blocked in Canada and not the UK or US then the solution is simply to post the link and carry on but if they're also being blocked in the UK or US then it's pointless to use them within the posts. Thus if someone from a place that is "anywhere but Canada" can tell us of their experiences when attempting to view videos from any of the artists that I listed in the second paragraph I would appreciate knowing what the results might be.


I live in Scandinavia, and a large number of the Medieval Ensemble of London videos are blocked here too. I have not searched them all.


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## Mandryka

Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> I would respectfully disagree about the time line in regards to the release of the best recordings.
> 
> The mid '70s to mid 80's saw the arrival of Schola Antiqua, The Medieval Ensemble Of London, New London Consort with the incomparable Catherine Bott, The Consort of Musicke, the London Cornett & Sackbut Ensemble (est. 1970) - not to be confused with the English Cornett & Sackbut Ensemble (est. 1993), solo recordings by Christopher Hogwood and his work as a conductor for the Academy of Ancient Music.
> 
> I would have loved to have been able to be in London during this vibrant time frame to see these musicians in their prime but thankfully each has left behind a substantial legacy of recordings which were initially released and then remastered and re-released on the L'Oiseau-Lyre label which is now under the auspices of Decca.
> 
> Unfortunately 95% of all L'Oiseau-Lyre releases are being blocked in Canada and I'm unable to provide links to a catalog with a hundred plus recordings which makes it difficult to bring them to the attention of those who frequent this thread.
> 
> L'Oiseau-Lyre is the premier label for many of the recordings which would form the foundation of this thread and the inability to post links which would provide examples to support our posts is problematic.
> 
> This is the YouTube link for The Medieval Ensemble of London -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> which features 63 tracks - with all but half a dozen or so blocked in Canada.
> 
> If they're only blocked in Canada and not the UK or US then the solution is simply to post the link and carry on but if they're also being blocked in the UK or US then it's pointless to use them within the posts. Thus if someone from a place that is "anywhere but Canada" can tell us of their experiences when attempting to view videos from any of the artists that I listed in the second paragraph I would appreciate knowing what the results might be.


Yes ai can see there's a problem with the image, the CD is by Dietmar Berger, I'd certainly be interested if you find anything interesting in there. Here's a link.

https://www.allmusic.com/album/music-for-the-medieval-renaissance-fiddle-mw0003170148


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## Manxfeeder

Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> I would respectfully disagree about the time line in regards to the release of the best recordings.


What I mean by that is, scholarship is continually being updated, and new recordings reflect that. The Tallis Scholars wouldn't think of including all the dissonances which are common in today's recordings.


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## Guest

Manxfeeder said:


> What I mean by that is, scholarship is continually being updated, and new recordings reflect that. The Tallis Scholars wouldn't think of including all the dissonances which are common in today's recordings.


My apologies for misunderstanding the intent of the thread but my quickness to leap to their defense was out of a sense of profound respect for the groups which I mentioned and the effect that these artists had upon me.

The recordings that I am familiar with are from this release -

View attachment 108437


Complete track listing -

https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/4788104

This set was an astounding revelation - my expectations could not possibly have been lower as my experience was intended as a "listening project" in which I take something that I'm supposed to enjoy and turn it into "homework" that I very quickly and very bitterly come to regret embarking upon as I attempt to endure album after album of music that eventually becomes more punishment than reward.

The word "Medieval" itself can be horrifying in and of itself and when you combine it with "and Renaissance" you have the stuff of nightmares but this release triggered an interest which borders at times on being obsessive. My primary interest is Celtic music and for reasons known to no one least of all myself I can hear the genesis of traditional and contemporary Celtic running through a great many of these recordings. It may be the actual arrangements which are being used or perhaps its the tunes themselves - that would be a question that needs to be answered by someone with the expertise needed to trace the path from one to the other.


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## Mandryka

Manxfeeder said:


> What I mean by that is, scholarship is continually being updated, and new recordings reflect that. The Tallis Scholars wouldn't think of including all the dissonances which are common in today's recordings.


This makes it sound as though there has been some scholarship which has revealed that the way to read an early music score (C 13/14/15/15/16?) is to embellish the music with dissonant harmonies. Is that really the case?


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## Mandryka

Good essay by Benjamin Bagby here https://www.sequentia.org/writings/medieval_song.html



> However, in today's world of medieval music one can also encounter the concert experience as pretentious pseudo-liturgy; as ironic, edgy cabaret; as ponderous mystery play or cute, costumed courtly entertainment; as ecstatic ethnic percussion session ; as extravagantly-orchestrated symphonic poem; as dutiful list of dry musical examples; as SCA free-for-all, etc. For some of these performance modes, technical ability (to play an instrument well or sing in tune with a consistent production) is not considered essential. Medieval song, having no living traditions except the ones we create for it, thrives even in the harshest of environments and adapts easily to the disguises performers require it to inhabit. No other ‚historical' music is thus fated to absorb such intense projections and fantasies from its modern performers.
> 
> There are many reasons for this situation, but one reason is obvious: the trivialisation of the Middle Ages (and hence medieval music) in our own popular culture has obscured the reality of medieval musical life, and has had consequences for the perceptions and expectations of medieval music performance in our own time (Carl Orff's ‚Carmina Burana' certainly contributed to this situation, already in 1937). We still suffer from a syndrome which is collectively known as ‚drums and fun.' This, in turn, is linked to our own nostalgia for a European ‚folk music' which has vanished; some turn to non-European traditional musics for a comforting influx of sounds and techniques which can be imitated (and instruments which can be played), hoping for a connection to a more genuine - but still imagined - Middle Ages.
> 
> The fact that today's ‚medieval music' presents itself in such a disparate manner, with such a wide spectrum of seemingly acceptable performance modes, some of them incoherent, has had consequences for its status in the musical world in general. Compared to the practice of Baroque music - which in the past 40 years has thrived and grown into a truly living amalgam of traditions, with high standards (and expectations) of excellence and an international community of musicians united by common knowledge and experience - the practice of music before ca. 1300 has not achieved the kind of ‚critical mass' necessary for a mature and vibrant musical culture to emerge. No professional schools dedicated uniquely to the performance of chant and medieval song have emerged, leaving inexperienced young performers with few alternatives for study; many are left with no choice for training but to attend the occasional workshop, or worse, to imitate recordings they admire without necessarily knowing anything about the music itself. Without a generally agreed-upon course of study to complete, young musicians can find themselves forming professional ensembles - and making recordings - after having had only the most rudimentary training (or no training at all), something which would be unthinkable in any other serious musical discipline.
> 
> This situation has, in turn, left many music critics without orientation in their evaluations of performances, so that their voices cannot be depended upon to judge a fine performance from a mediocre one. More and more often, we read critics who simply quote from the materials provided by the performers, perhaps adding some vague remarks about 'atmosphere'. In many cases, image and feeling, or a certain sound-quality ('angelic' or 'earthy' = 'medieval') have come to replace a discussion of actual musical content or the merits of a performance. There are almost no critical voices insisting on honesty, quality, or even beauty.


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## Dirge

[Gregorian chant]: _Ave verum corpus_

:: Bénédictins de l'Abbaye Saint-Maurice-et-Saint-Maur, Clervaux (Luxembourg) [Philips '59]




:: Susanne Peck [Delos '94]





This well-known 14th-century Eucharistic chant (possibly by Pope Innocent VI) is used by Byrd and Mozart and others as the basis for more complex works, but the original chant stands up well on its own. The venerable old recording by venerable old monks of Clervaux is still the one to beat for a traditional setting, but the solo by Susanne Peck is very effective and affecting in its new age sort of way. (The Peck recording was recorded at a very low level and needs to be "cranked up" a bit to make its full effect.)


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## Jacck

Philippus De Monte




a Flemish composer of the late Renaissance who was hired by the Habsburgs and worked both in Vienna and Prague


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## Taggart

Just came across a nice cross-over piece - the Irish March from Byrd's Battle Suite.

To quote IMSLP - "The Battell, BK 94 seems to have been inspired by The Image of Irelande, with a Discoverie of Woodkarne a series of engravings by John Derricke published in 1581 depicting Henry Sidney's campaign of 1578 against Turlough Luineach O'Neill, King of Tyrone. ... The adjacent works found in the 1591 My Ladye Nevells Booke collection - The Marche before the Battell, BK 93 (No.3) and The Galliard for the Victorie, BK 95 (No.5) are included to form a 'Battle Suite'."

The battle suite was an example of programmatic music in the Renaissance and Baroque eras.

Here it is in the keyboard version:






The Irish March has also become a show piece for Irish pipers. Here it is by the folk group Planxty


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## jegreenwood

Mandryka said:


> Too blended and not enough bass. Try King's Singers or Cardinall's Musick or maybe Stile Antico.


Stile Antico has recorded the Byrd piece.






I heard them in concert in a church several years ago. It was magnificent. If I even switch to a surround system, their recordings would be my number one reason.

Edit - just saw they were performing in NYC next month and bought a ticket.


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## Taggart

Talk about dates being flexible. I'm just in the middle of ripping our CD collection to use with an mp3 player in our car. One (naxos) cd is described as The Glory of Early Music i.e. stuff pre 1600.

It includes Jenkins Battle Suite - On the Siege of Newark - which happened in 1646! 

(Jenkins is an old fashioned composer who in the 1640s revived the _In Nomine_ form which had long been out of fashion.)


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## senza sordino

This cd has a lot of songs about Robin Hood, written from the 1200s to the early 1600s. A mix of singing and instrumental tunes. They play a variety of old instruments: pipe and tabor, nakers, cittern, bagpipe, violin, lute, guitar, recorder, side drum, alto shawm, viol. I don't even know what some of these instruments are. It's a very nice album. This was brought to my attention on the current listening thread by one of our esteemed friends.










A year ago I had the chance to perform with an early music ensemble. I played the guitar. We played three songs, I can't remember what we played, I will look to see if I can find out what we played. We had a one small harp, a few recorders, three guitars, one violin and about a dozen singers. I really enjoyed this music making, quite different from a big modern orchestra that I currently play with. The music making seemed more intimate, simple and innocent. Quite delightful to play. And it made a nice change from the big modern orchestra with all of its musical demands.


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## Mandryka

senza sordino said:


> The music making seemed more intimate, simple and innocent. Quite delightful to play. And it made a nice change from the big modern orchestra with all of its musical demands.


I think it's quite common to hear a whiggish view of music history until circa C18-- it all started with something naive and simple like monophonic strophic singing and gradually, between C12 or maybe even C6 and c18 counterpoint/harmonies became more complex, reaching a peak with JSB

I'm not sure what to make of this.


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## senza sordino

Mandryka said:


> I think it's quite common to hear a whiggish view of music history until circa C18-- it all started with something naive and simple like monophonic strophic singing and gradually, between C12 or maybe even C6 and c18 counterpoint/harmonies became more complex, reaching a peak with JSB
> 
> I'm not sure what to make of this.


I didn't mean to stir controversy. The singers in our group had a hard time with the harmonies. I was really thinking of my own music making as an instrumentalist. I had a fretted instrument, I read the notes and followed the conductor. I play the violin in the big orchestra, the technical demands are higher in orchestra playing 19th and 20th Century music. And I wasn't trying to make a sweeping generalization of all music prior to the 19th century. And I was referring to the music that was chosen for us to perform. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. Each era of music has its complexities.


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## Ingélou

senza sordino said:


> This cd has a lot of songs about Robin Hood, written from the 1200s to the early 1600s. A mix of singing and instrumental tunes. They play a variety of old instruments: pipe and tabor, nakers, cittern, bagpipe, violin, lute, guitar, recorder, side drum, alto shawm, viol. I don't even know what some of these instruments are. It's a very nice album. This was brought to my attention on the current listening thread by one of our esteemed friends.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A year ago I had the chance to perform with an early music ensemble. I played the guitar. We played three songs, I can't remember what we played, I will look to see if I can find out what we played. We had a one small harp, a few recorders, three guitars, one violin and about a dozen singers. I really enjoyed this music making, quite different from a big modern orchestra that I currently play with. The music making seemed more intimate, simple and innocent. Quite delightful to play. And it made a nice change from the big modern orchestra with all of its musical demands.


This is just the sort of music group I would love to find one day! It does sound delightful.


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## Mandryka

senza sordino said:


> I didn't mean to stir controversy. The singers in our group had a hard time with the harmonies. I was really thinking of my own music making as an instrumentalist. I had a fretted instrument, I read the notes and followed the conductor. I play the violin in the big orchestra, the technical demands are higher in orchestra playing 19th and 20th Century music. And I wasn't trying to make a sweeping generalization of all music prior to the 19th century. And I was referring to the music that was chosen for us to perform. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. Each era of music has its complexities.


Sure, in fact I've been listening to some early music these past couple of weeks, Hildegard and Abelard, and this idea of evolution has been on my mind.


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## Jacck

senza sordino said:


> This cd has a lot of songs about Robin Hood, written from the 1200s to the early 1600s. A mix of singing and instrumental tunes. They play a variety of old instruments: pipe and tabor, nakers, cittern, bagpipe, violin, lute, guitar, recorder, side drum, alto shawm, viol. I don't even know what some of these instruments are. It's a very nice album. This was brought to my attention on the current listening thread by one of our esteemed friends.


french trouvère Adam de la Halle from the 13c. sings about Robin and Marion (I guess it is Robin Hood)


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## Ingélou

Jacck said:


> french trouvère Adam de la Halle from the 13c. sings about Robin and Marion *(I guess it is Robin Hood)*


Not necessarily -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeu_de_Robin_et_Marion


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## Brucknerphile

I am jumping into the discussion without reading all the entries--and the ones I have read are all very interesting-- but I want to mention the music of that great composer from the 1300's--Guilliame Mauchaut. I think of his music sometimes as space music. It is a sound that brings the listener beyond the surface of this planet.
There are intricacies that are difficult to grasp on first hearing but on repeated listening his music just grows and grows and then gets implanted into the listener's brain.

"Dulce Dame" can sometimes be loud--the recording by the old New York Pro Musica-- and it can be quiet, I think a recording by the Waverly Consort can be quiet a running a hand over a piece of velvet.

Then there are the motets and then there's... well he's done quite a bit of music that stretches imagination. Very worth while listening through a good set of earphones. You may be transported off this planet into ethereal reaches...

Sorry to sound so mystical. I am not like that in real life but his music is a transport machine.


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## Mandryka

some C14 French violin music here, inspired by a treatise by Johannes de Grocheio. The booklet is informative and scholarly.









Instruments
Oval medieval fiddle: According to the illumination from theTrinity College Apocalypse, c.1250-60 Cambridge MS R 16.2 f.22r. Florian Jougneau, Strasbourg 2015.
Oval medieval fiddle with lateral drone: According to the illumination from a Catalan manuscript. 13th century. Florian Jougneau, Strasbourg 2013.
Medieval bows. Nelly Poidevin, Asier de Benito, Pepe Morales Luna, Rait Pihlap. Citole: According to a sculpture from the Xelmirez palace based on a study by Antonio Franco with elements from the Warwick castle model, 13th century, Gonzalo Pieters Ferguson, Barcelona 2013
Muse: Desing according sculptures form the 13th century by Raul Lacilla in collaboration with Seivane bagpipe's workshop, A Coruña 2016.
Frame drum without jingles: Gerardo Masciandaro.
Tambourine: Gerardo Masciandaro.
Wooden clapers: Gonzalo Pieters.


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## Dorsetmike

This is a mix of instrumental, songs and dance, mostly "traditional" but a few by known composers.


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## Ras

A new release by a Norwegian ensemble of music by a Wizlav the Younger (????):

https://www.grappa.no/en/albums/sim...he-songs-and-poems-of-the-minnesinger-wizlav/

>>>Songs from Wizlav the Younger.
The mïnnesinger Wizlav the Younger is the source of 17 of the melodies, with their accompanying lyrics, in the unique Jena song manuscript from around year 1320. The Norwegian grand old man of medieval music instruments, Sverre Jensen, has arranged the 17 pieces by Wizlav and recorded them together with his ensemble, Aurora Borealis. <<<


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## Mandryka

Mandryka said:


> some C14 French violin music here, inspired by a treatise by Johannes de Grocheio. The booklet is informative and scholarly.
> 
> View attachment 108789
> 
> 
> Instruments
> Oval medieval fiddle: According to the illumination from theTrinity College Apocalypse, c.1250-60 Cambridge MS R 16.2 f.22r. Florian Jougneau, Strasbourg 2015.
> Oval medieval fiddle with lateral drone: According to the illumination from a Catalan manuscript. 13th century. Florian Jougneau, Strasbourg 2013.
> Medieval bows. Nelly Poidevin, Asier de Benito, Pepe Morales Luna, Rait Pihlap. Citole: According to a sculpture from the Xelmirez palace based on a study by Antonio Franco with elements from the Warwick castle model, 13th century, Gonzalo Pieters Ferguson, Barcelona 2013
> Muse: Desing according sculptures form the 13th century by Raul Lacilla in collaboration with Seivane bagpipe's workshop, A Coruña 2016.
> Frame drum without jingles: Gerardo Masciandaro.
> Tambourine: Gerardo Masciandaro.
> Wooden clapers: Gonzalo Pieters.


There are some very attractive pieces here, I'm not sure but they may be settings of troubadour songs. I'm thinking of Aussi comme l'unicorn, La douce pensée, Amour voulez vous accorder? The label, Enchiriadis, has another oustanding medieval instrumental CD called Vacillantis.


----------



## Dorsetmike

Quote copied from Wiki.



> My Lady Carey's Dompe is sometimes attributed to English innovative composer of the early Tudor period, Hugh Aston. It is in G Dorian mode and consists of an improvisatory treble line over a drone alternating between two bass notes, G and D. It may have been written for the death of William Carey, a courtier and favorite of Henry VIII, who died on 22 June 1528, and in this case, Lady Carey may refer to his wife Mary Boleyn, one of the mistresses of Henry VIII and the sister of Henry's second wife, Anne Boleyn, but also to Carey's mother, sisters and sister-in-law. Dompe, which may come from Irish dump that means lament, can refer to a dance, a dirge, a lament or a melancholic love song.[3][4][5][6]
> 
> The work appears in a single source written around 1530, British Library, manuscript Royal Appendix 58 (Roy. App. 58).[4][7]


This rendition on harpsichord


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## Mandryka

Everything I've heard by Hugh Aston has been interesting. The instrument here is very good I think


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> Everything I've heard by Hugh Aston has been interesting. The instrument here is very good I think


I love this tune - I remember it was on a record that we borrowed from the library in the 1970s and played constantly. But I must admit the video sounds a bit 'cavelike' to me. Funny acoustics?


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## Mandryka

Try Tasto Solo, who are investigating organetto






The drone on that instrument that Asperen uses is what interests me. For this reason I think it can work well on claviorgan or even organ, like this






I'd like to hear more music with a bass ostinato like this played on a claviorgan.

Here's a creative version on modern piano


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## Marinera

my favourite version. and after on cd follows Byrd's la volta.. delicious.

full album available on spotify to listen for free.

I really like the ordering of the pieces on this cd, first are English pieces, then Italian, French and German, but My Lady Carey's Dompe and La Volta works grabbed my attention immediately


----------



## Biwa

The Flanders Recorder Quartet is one of my favorite early music ensembles. Although they specialize in Renaissance & Baroque music, they are equally at home with Contemporary music. Sadly, it appears they will be retiring at the end of this year. Here's a link for more information about them:

https://www.sfcv.org/reviews/san-jo...rs-recorder-quartet-blows-away-preconceptions

I have been enjoying their recordings on the Aeolus label immensely. (Yes, I still actually buy disks. ) For anyone interested here's a link to their website:

https://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/Artists/Flanders-Recorder-Quartet

Now playing... "The darke is my delight - Music of Renaissance England"

Flanders Recorder Quartet
Amaryllis Dieltiens (soprano)
Bart Naessens (harpsichord)


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## Marinera

^
Yes their playing is very impressive. The range of recorders they play and their interpretations are astounding. At least that's what I think from few measly samples I've heard and 'Banchetto musicale' albums samples don't even play or perhaps there's a problem with my browser. I found them only a week or so earlier, something of theirs was posted on another thread can't recollect now by whom. When I looked them up on the aeolus website and heard some samples I was simply salivating all over their shop window so to say. 'The darke is my delight' is one of the disks I have my eye on.


----------



## Guest

Marinera said:


> ^
> Yes their playing is very impressive. The range of recorders they play and their interpretations are astounding. At least that's what I think from few measly samples I've heard and 'Banchetto musicale' albums samples don't even play or perhaps there's a problem with my browser. I found them only a week or so earlier, something of theirs was posted on another thread can't recollect now by whom. When I looked them up on the aeolus website and heard some samples I was simply salivating all over their shop window so to say. 'The darke is my delight' is one of the disks I have my eye on.


The Flanders Recorder Quartet have a dedicated YouTube page here -

https://www.youtube.com/user/frquartet/videos

and a full playlist of 193 videos here -






on the upper right side you will find a scroll box with links to each of the videos.

As always the "just because it's available in Canada doesn't mean it's available everywhere" warning is in effect but I do hope that they are accessible for everyone as they really are first-rate.


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## Marinera

Thank you:tiphat:

Yes, videos play!


----------



## Dorsetmike

Stella Splendens 14thC


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## Dorsetmike

The Jaye Consort


----------



## Guest

I'm getting a great deal of mileage out of this self-paced learning course as this is now the fourth thread that I've placed this upon but it really is quite good and may help someone who is interested in the subject but may find it somewhat intimidating -

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/musicapp-medieval-modern/


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## Taggart

Nice link. The couree content looks interesting. Shame I cant access Britannica- server error.


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## Ingélou

I'm not a big fan of Henry VIII normally, but for this I make an exception:


----------



## Guest

Taggart said:


> Nice link. The couree content looks interesting. Shame I cant access Britannica- server error.


It's a Canadian link thus the error. Everyone who is not in fact in Canada may need to do a search originating from your home country for - lumenlearning.com music 101 or lumenlearning musicapp-medieval-modern/ and see if you can access the course.

Some variation may work...

Je vous souhaite le meilleur!

Au revoir -

Syd


----------



## Dorsetmike

Another rendition of Greensleeves, modern orchestral backing, but I still find it a beautiful work


----------



## premont

Ingélou said:


> I'm not a big fan of Henry VIII normally, but for this I make an exception:


Reminds me of the old saying, that one can be so much in love, that one loses one's head.


----------



## Dorsetmike

Mother often said "lok for one thing - find another; this is such a result

Libre Vemell de Montserrat, C1399


----------



## Mandryka

try this one


----------



## Mandryka

Dorsetmike said:


> Mother often said "lok for one thing - find another; this is such a result
> 
> Libre Vemell de Montserrat, C1399


I'm sure there's a lot to enjoy in this.


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> try this one


Thanks! :tiphat:

Here's another Henrician song that I like - Pastime with Good Company; I like the lyrics too:


----------



## Ingélou

This is lovely - in the world of medieval music, you don't have to be called Guillaume, but it helps.


----------



## Mandryka

I think that’s Huelgas Ensemble singing it. 

I wonder why he decided to use an instrument to underline the tenor, rather than another voice. It’s nice to see the manuscript roll on.


----------



## Gallus

Was listening to some plainchant (+ other early music) the other day with a friend and sharing some of our favourites. Rorate Caeli came up






And I had to listen to Pange lingua gloriosi, which to my ears has one of the most beguiling melodies ever created


----------



## Taggart

The last two verses of _Pange lingua gloriosi_ (the benediction hymn _Tantum Ergo Sacramentum_) are part of the upbringing of Catholics of my generation. It's noticeable on Holy Thursday, when the procession of the Blessed Sacrament to the altar of repose takes place, how well the congregation join in those last two verses.


----------



## Dorsetmike

Some beautiful Thomas Tallis






And the original the VW used as a theme


----------



## Ingélou

Gesualdo - Miserere (Tenebrae) - apologies if this *rich & moving* video has been posted already.


----------



## Ingélou

Another one where it's nice to see the music. 
William Byrd - Carman's Whistle with variations - Eberhard Kraus, harpsichord.


----------



## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> Another one where it's nice to see the music.
> William Byrd - Carman's Whistle with variations - Eberhard Kraus, harpsichord.


Dreadful performance on a disgusting sounding instrument, like one of those things Rolf Harris used to play. Stiff perky rhythms, makes me imagine the seven dwarves.


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> Dreadful performance on a disgusting sounding instrument, like one of those things Rolf Harris used to play. Stiff perky rhythms, makes me imagine the seven dwarves.


:lol:
There's no accounting for imagination...


----------



## Ingélou

Another one we've known and enjoyed for a long time.
Dowland - My Lady Hunsdon's Puffe


----------



## Marinera

Mandryka said:


> Dreadful performance on a disgusting sounding instrument, like one of those things Rolf Harris used to play. Stiff perky rhythms, makes me imagine the seven dwarves.


It's official - I'm reading posts on TC to get entertained


----------



## Mandryka

Here's a more poetic approach to Carman's Whistle, on a 1/4 comma meantone﻿ clavichord.


----------



## Ingélou

Some more Byrd - lovely. Laudibus in Sanctis






Lyrics with translation here:
https://www.allsaintskingston.co.uk/anthems/laudibus-in-sanctis


----------



## Mandryka

Mandryka said:


> Dreadful performance on a disgusting sounding instrument, like one of those things Rolf Harris used to play. Stiff perky rhythms, makes me imagine the seven dwarves.


Here's the thing


----------



## Taggart

Here's Peter Phillips SJ with a Galliarda Passamezzo


----------



## Ingélou

Taggart said:


> Here's Peter Phillips SJ with a Galliarda Passamezzo


'Passamezzo' - that's a term I remember from finding one by Diego Ortiz in one of my early music books.

And here it is -


----------



## Ingélou

'Passamezzo' is an interesting term - apparently it could be known in English as a 'passing measure pavane' - 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Dictionary_of_Music_and_Musicians/Passamezzo

which rang a bell - I remember a reference in Twelfth Night.
https://www.bartleby.com/81/12852.html

Nice to have it cleared up after all these years.


----------



## Ingélou

Taggart said:


> Here's Peter Phillips SJ with a Galliarda Passamezzo


Needless to say, I've just looked, and there's no composer guestbook on Peter Philips - even his name can be spelled several different ways. I find his biography fascinating:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Philips

I hope somebody will put a guestbook up now and remedy the deficiency. :tiphat:


----------



## Ingélou

In the meantime, there's a taster for a Philips cd which sounds glorious:


----------



## Ingélou

I've just found this Jordi Savall video of Diego Ortiz - Recercadas del Tratado de Glosas ( 1533 )
I expect it won't be up long, so I'll post it as a link.






I just find this music so wonderful. 
I'm going to listen and maybe, despite our trying to downsize, maybe I won't be able to resist getting Taggart to order the cd! 

Guy can write - guy can play! :tiphat: :tiphat:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS - Here's the Composer Guestbook - 
Diego Ortiz 1510 - 1570


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

I've been charmed by the musicians of our Shakespeare Theatre . They perform a Green Show before every outdoor play . Over the years as music directors come and go there's variations in early music interpretations . There was one period when we thought they were the sackbut Beatles . One year a viola woman , a romantic interest , I'd see gaze away and so long ago and forlornly that , well ... I didn't understand this or if I could really make that journey .


----------



## Taggart

Ingélou said:


> Needless to say, I've just looked, and there's no composer guestbook on Peter Philips - even his name can be spelled several different ways. I find his biography fascinating:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Philips
> 
> I hope somebody will put a guestbook up now and remedy the deficiency. :tiphat:


Done. Guest book here - Peter Phillips (1560 - 1628)


----------



## Dorsetmike

To keep in the early days mood I'm partaking of a glass or two of mead now that I've ben off the pain killers for a few weeks.

AAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that's better - hic!

https://www.lymebaywinery.co.uk/mead

I prefer the Traditional or West country varieties; Email them for local stockists or buy on line. My nearest is a farm shop t'other side of Wimborne.


----------



## Ingélou

Dorsetmike said:


> To keep in the early days mood I'm partaking of a glass or two of mead now that I've ben off the pain killers for a few weeks.
> 
> AAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that's better - hic!
> 
> https://www.lymebaywinery.co.uk/mead
> 
> I prefer the Traditional or West country varieties; Email them for local stockists or buy on line. My nearest is a farm shop t'other side of Wimborne.


We used to drink mead in the 1970s when Taggart took a student job working in a factory that produced it, along with cider, fruit cordials etc. 
To be honest, even at the time I found it a bit too rich and sweet. 
But that could have been because we consumed it along with some particularly fulsome chocolate coffee creams.

The follies of youth! 

But thank you, because it put me in mind of the only early music drinking song I know, 'Tapster, drynke, fille another ale' (anon). 





It was on the 1970s LP by Musica Reservata, entitled *'Music from the Hundred Years War'*, which we used to listen to on a record borrowed from Ealing Public Library during the first impoverished years of our married life in a bedsit, when 'the gramophone fund' finally reached fruition! 




(The drinking song occurs at 48 minutes 28 seconds.)

I must listen to it again.
I adore the voice of :tiphat: *Jantina Noorman*, who sings on this record.

The tone of the opening number sounds a wee bit jolly for my taste now, but I remember liking their version of the *Agincourt Carol*. 
I can't isolate their version, (it occurs at 51 minutes 31 seconds) but here's one from the Tower of London, the 600th anniversary of the battle. 





I am always conflicted with this one - it's unbearable & dreadful gloating over tragic carnage, but yet the song *is *beautiful.


----------



## Dirge

[anonymous]: "Sumer is icumen in" (13th Century)
· Hilliard Ensemble [harmonia mundi] ~ 2 minutes






This joyous little song celebrating the arrival of summer (or is it a bawdy little ditty about adultery?) is the oldest known song in English (Middle English) and is in the form of a round, with four voices singing the same melody one after the other, accompanied by two lower voices. It famously includes the first known use of the word "fart" in written English: "Bucke uerteth"/"the goat farts."


----------



## Dirge

Here's one of many 20th-century works that, if not exactly neo-Mediæval, is written in the spirit of early music …

Ralph VAUGHAN WILLIAMS: _Merciless Beauty_ (1921)
· Langridge, Endellion String Quartet minus viola [EMI] ~ 6½ minutes






These three little pieces for voice and string trio (two violins & cello) are settings of rondels once attributed to Chaucer but now believed to be mis-attributed to Chaucer. "Those strange cold Chaucer Rondels," as Simona Pakenham describes them, are indeed strange and cold-stripped-down and severe anomalies in Vaughan Williams' output (comparable in that respect to the Sonata for Violin & Cello in Ravel's output)-but they are beautifully strange and cold. The first two songs are expressive in a flowing but lyrically undulating sort of way that puts everything on the singer's phrasing agility and way with words-there's no cover for a less-than-excellent singer to hide behind here. The string writing of the rhythmically pointed and upbeat final song makes me think ahead to the Quodlibet from John Cage's String Quartet in Four Parts (1950), and the work as a whole may have inspired Julián Orbón's nifty Tres cantigas del rey (1960), a sort of neo-Spanish Renaissance counterpart to _Merciless Beauty_.





 (Quodlibet)





 (Tres cantigas del rey)


----------



## Dirge

John PLUMMER: _Anna mater matris Christi_
:: Hilliard Ensemble [harmonia mundi '82] ~ 6 minutes





This is perhaps the most disarming and immediately appealing of all the late-Mediæval/early-Renaissance motets that I know, the one that normal people (i.e., non early music enthusiasts) tend to like right off for its welcoming opening, airy and uncluttered atmosphere (despite having three interweaving tenor parts), general tunefulness, openhearted expressiveness, and (deceptive) simplicity. It was a rarity when the Hilliard Ensemble recorded it back in 1982, but it has become fairly popular in the meanwhile-largely, I suspect, because of this recording. The performance is slowish and not entirely unsentimental, but it's pretty much impossible not to like.

The Binchois Consort has made a fine new recording for Hyperion, and the label is offering it for free (in any downloadable format) at its Web site; simply add it to your basket and check out as usual, as if you were buying it for £0.00. (In order to check out, you'll have to register with the Web site if you haven't previously done so.)

https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dw.asp?dc=W20720_GBAJY1822818

[If you don't wish to install and use the Hyperion Download Manager, simply click the "Download music files manually" button at the very bottom of the download page to download via your browser downloader.]


----------



## pjang23

Machaut - Je vivroie liement






Machaut - Douce Dame Jolie


----------



## millionrainbows

I like early music, too: early John Cage, early Boulez, early Bartok...


----------



## Mandryka

pjang23 said:


> Machaut - Je vivroie liement


Thanks for this, I've never come across this singer before.

The piece is quite often presented as a song for solo voice, which is, of course, hard to pull off, especially when it's for an audience which doesn't have an immediate grasp of the language. The singer here has a charming voice I think, she's got a style which is distinctive, not exotic exactly but not at all a conservatory style, and she's good with the words too. The instrumentalists play with such enthusiasm - normally I've got very little patience for this type of jaunty modal rhythm but it didn't outstay it's welcome at all, maybe because of the imaginative harmonies.

I like it and I'll try to hear more from them. The recording this is from is for sale here

https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/falsobordone2


----------



## Mandryka

Dirge said:


> John PLUMMER: _Anna mater matris Christi_
> :: Hilliard Ensemble [harmonia mundi '82] ~ 6 minutes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is perhaps the most disarming and immediately appealing of all the late-Mediæval/early-Renaissance motets that I know, the one that normal people (i.e., non early music enthusiasts) tend to like right off for its welcoming opening, airy and uncluttered atmosphere (despite having three interweaving tenor parts), general tunefulness, openhearted expressiveness, and (deceptive) simplicity. It was a rarity when the Hilliard Ensemble recorded it back in 1982, but it has become fairly popular in the meanwhile-largely, I suspect, because of this recording. The performance is slowish and not entirely unsentimental, but it's pretty much impossible not to like.


You're practically in the renaissance with this Plummer motet. By the time that you get to the C15 "Contenance angloise" music, there's tons of music which is equally accessible -- is _Anna mater matris Christi_ really more accessible than Du Fay's _Flos Florum_ or Frye's _Ave Regina Caelorum_? I don't think so.

Quite a lot of renaissance vocal polyphony, with its emphasis on lyricism and coherence and consonance, and its relatively familiar texts, is easy to enjoy in a casual way.


----------



## Mandryka

Dirge said:


> but they are beautifully strange and cold.


Not strange enough, not beautiful enough and not cold at all.

(I also listened to the quodlibet, which proves that Cage was a superior composer to Vaughan Williams!)


----------



## Ingélou

Dirge said:


> Here's one of many 20th-century works that, if not exactly neo-Mediæval, is written in the spirit of early music …
> 
> Ralph VAUGHAN WILLIAMS: _Merciless Beauty_ (1921)
> · Langridge, Endellion String Quartet minus viola [EMI] ~ 6½ minutes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These three little pieces for voice and string trio (two violins & cello) are settings of rondels once attributed to Chaucer but now believed to be mis-attributed to Chaucer. "Those *strange cold Chaucer Rondels*," as Simona Pakenham describes them, are indeed strange and cold-stripped-down and severe anomalies in Vaughan Williams' output (comparable in that respect to the Sonata for Violin & Cello in Ravel's output)-but *they are beautifully strange and cold*.


I have just listened to these Vaughan Williams settings of Chaucer's Rondels (again), and I see just what you and Simona Pakenham mean! 
They are lovely and a little eerie, and certainly rather different from most of the RVW music that I've listened to.

Thanks for sharing, Dirge. :tiphat:


----------



## Mandryka

Much more « in the spirit of early music » are Heinz Holliger’s instrumental transcriptions of Machaut songs, including the polyphonic David Hoquetus, there a recording he made with Hilliard and various instrumental musicians whose name I forget, on ECM. It’s one that has for me repayed repeated listening.

Harrison Birtwistle also made some Machaut transcriptions but I can’t remember a thing about them!


----------



## Ingélou

Dirge said:


> [anonymous]: "Sumer is icumen in" (13th Century)
> · Hilliard Ensemble [harmonia mundi] ~ 2 minutes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This joyous little song celebrating the arrival of summer (or is it a bawdy little ditty about adultery?) is the oldest known song in English (Middle English) and is in the form of a round, with four voices singing the same melody one after the other, accompanied by two lower voices. It famously includes the first known use of the word "fart" in written English: "Bucke uerteth"/"the goat farts."


This is a gorgeous little song which had a vogue in the 1920s and 1930s too - my mother learned it when she was at Retford High School & would often sing it.

Regarding the first known use of 'fart' - Mum won a prize & chose the Oxford Book of English Verse, edited by Arthur Quiller-Couch, 1900, where it's the first poem, and 'bucke verteth' is left unglossed. However, I remember it being glossed somewhere else - maybe in my songbook at school, where we also sang it - that 'verteth' meant 'turneth', a bit like the French and Latin, you know...

I was rather shocked when I went to University, and Geoffrey Smithers, our English Language Professor, informed us gleefully that 'v' was often used for 'f' and that 'e' and 'a' were interchangeable too! :lol:

He went on to explain that flatulence was indeed a joyful sign of summer, the livestock able to gorge themselves on fresh greens once again.


----------



## Taggart

Even wiki is a little dubious about this. The Middle Ages project - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sumer_Is_Icumen_In comes down on the side of Deer turning while ordinary wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer_Is_Icumen_In - goes for a billy goat breaking wind. ordinary wiki also has the Pound parody and the Wicker Man version (deer turning).

There's a lovely summary of academic debate - http://mentalfloss.com/article/94624/13th-century-song-about-deer-farts-debate - which ends up "Team Farts: 8; Team Cavorts: 7."


----------



## Dirge

Mandryka said:


> You're practically in the renaissance with this Plummer motet. By the time that you get to the C15 "Contenance angloise" music, there's tons of music which is equally accessible -- is _Anna mater matris Christi_ really more accessible than Du Fay's _Flos Florum_ or Frye's _Ave Regina Caelorum_? I don't think so.


Is it more accessible? Maybe not. Is it more appealing? Aye, I think so. There's not a strong correlation between accessibility and appeal in my listening experience, as there's a lot of accessible music that I don't find very appealing and a lot of appealing music that I don't find very accessible. If there were a strong correlation, the round "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" would be the most popular polyphonic music in the English-speaking world.… Oh, wait! "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" _is_ the most popular polyphonic music in the English-speaking world. Well played, Mandryka. Well played.


----------



## Mandryka

Dirge said:


> Is it more accessible? Maybe not. Is it more appealing? Aye, I think so. There's not a strong correlation between accessibility and appeal in my listening experience, as there's a lot of accessible music that I don't find very appealing and a lot of appealing music that I don't find very accessible. If there were a strong correlation, the round "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" would be the most popular polyphonic music in the English-speaking world.… Oh, wait! "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" _is_ the most popular polyphonic music in the English-speaking world. Well played, Mandryka. Well played.


You're saying that that Plummer piece is more appealing to you than Du Fay's Flos Florum, for example? Or are you saying more than that?


----------



## Ras

*Two new releases for the fans of early music:*

Antoine de Févin: Missa Ave Maria & Missa Salve sancta parens
T‎HE BRABANT ENSEMBLE - S‎TEPHEN RICE conductor on Hyperion
Stephen Rice and friends introduce another lesser-known compatriot and contemporary of Josquin.









Dowland songs from Signum :


----------



## Ingélou

Saw this in a post by Biwa :tiphat: on the Sacred Music thread and it's just so gorgeous! 
The melody & harmony & voices are to-die-for.

(1466 - St Emmeram Codex - Peter Schweik - Stimmwerck)


----------



## Taggart

*Poetzlinger's music book*

The St Emmeram Codex is so called because it was preserved in the celebrated library of the Benedictine monastery of St Emmeram in Regensburg. It was the private music collection of Hermann Pötzlinger, who worked briefly as the master of their school

Stimmwerck specialise in the music of little known composers of the German-speaking world so this is a natural for them. All we know of Peter Schweikl is that he was a canon at the Alte Kapelle in Regensburg. The dean Rudolf Volkhardt von Häringen had been a professor of theology at the University of Vienna when Pötzlinger was a student there. There is a detailed review and discussion of the CD here - http://www.sonusantiqva.org/i/S/Stimmwerck/2008StEmmeramCodex.html


----------



## Ingélou

Today is Remembrance Day, one hundred years since the Armistice that put an end to what it was hoped would be the 'End to All Wars'. 

Thinking of all the tragedy and torment caused by that war and all others, and honouring those who fell.

Even beyond hope, we can still try.

The Armed Man, the Armed Man is to be feared ...


----------



## Mandryka

Very much enjoying La Harpe de Melodie (Senleches) here, two singers and a harp. A real high point I think.


----------



## Dorsetmike

Arcadelt Il bianco e dolce cigno


----------



## Ingélou

Shawms - don't you just *love* them? :kiss:

How could any ill temper or glumness survive a good brisk bout of shawm like this?






Or this?






Thank you, David Munrow. :tiphat:

This little video was interesting too.






And for fuller information, see Wiki -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shawm

*For aural charm, go seek a shawm. *


----------



## Ingélou

Early Music is Fun.

This is a sub-section we're going to have on our jointly-conceived thread for items that we _know_ may not be completely 'authentic' or even 'top-drawer' performance-wise.

But they're items which we like and which we hope visitors may enjoy.

Taggart & I got 'into' Early Music through our passion for folk music and via David Munrow. Folk Festivals we went to in the 1970s & 1980s often featured folk groups performing songs and tunes from the seventeenth century or earlier. We're trying to educate ourselves but we still enjoy Early Music for its Oomph.

I've always been fascinated by the idea - one I picked up when researching religious ballads - that the pipe and tabor played by one person, as commonly done in medieval and renaissance times, was such a harmonious combination that it served as a mystic trope for God and the soul.

There aren't too many examples of it on YouTube, but I like this video by Caliban's Dream, despite the silly hat.


----------



## Dorsetmike

I think these should fit;


----------



## Ingélou

A *celestial* :angel: piece for a November afternoon. 
*Jacob Obrecht - Beata es, Maria. 
*





PS - There's a Composer Guestbook for Obrecht, put up by *Manxfeeder.* Thank you. :tiphat:
Jacob Obrecht


----------



## Ariasexta

Nice to join this discussion. I have a repertoir to share, One of my favorite mass is Missa Vinum Bonum by Orlando di Lasso, this mass always gives me a good mood and refreshment. Just in several months, I have listened to this mass more than 150 times. For people who are in low point of life, I recommend Missa Vinum Bonum, very energetic, amicable music.


----------



## Gallus

A beautiful cantata for solo soprano by Telemann, as good as any cantata I've heard from Bach.


----------



## Dorsetmike

3 pieces from the Mulliner book Thurston Dart on clavicorde, there's quite a lot from the Mulliner book on Youtube, various instruments some period, others not!


----------



## Ariasexta

Mandryka said:


> View attachment 109772
> 
> 
> Very much enjoying La Harpe de Melodie (Senleches) here, two singers and a harp. A real high point I think.


I wanted to like your post, but the button does not work for me. Sure, medieval music is amazing to discover. I have a few cds with medieval chants and pilgrim songs which are some phenomenal works, sounds they have much estern influence even if it was just my imagination. But, we know that Byzantine was also a hotspot of musical production before it was conquered by turks.


----------



## Ariasexta

I wanted to introduce and alert people to the not well-known music which is unjustly forgotten, not that I really want to talk about them a lot. Something you are en amour with is something you feel reluctant to praise and discuss more than actual experience and knowledge allow. However, as knowledge and experience increase over time, it will be not immodest to share some experiences and opinions.


----------



## Mandryka

Dorsetmike said:


> 3 pieces from the Mulliner book Thurston Dart on clavicorde, there's quite a lot from the Mulliner book on Youtube, various instruments some period, others not!


Nasty instrument and recording, and undistinguished music and performance.

Does anyone know which LP it's from?


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> Nasty instrument and recording, and undistinguished music and performance.
> 
> Does anyone know which LP it's from?


It's from volume one of a five disc L'Oiseau-Lyre release called 'Masters of Early English Keyboard Music'
which helped establish Dart as a soloist of distinction.


----------



## Mandryka

Very attractive recording this by Thurston Dart, on characterful organs interestingly tuned and played with sweep and panache and joie de vivre. I'll put this here as the versions streaming are not well tagged. It has some things in common with Tilney's Elizabethan dances CD - it is sunny.









Tracklist here for anyone listening to it on spotify

St. Lawrence's, Appleby [1-6], Holy Trinity Chapel, Staunton Harold [7-9]

St. John's, Wolverhampton [10-19], All Saints', Rotherham [20-25]

1 WILLIAM BYRD (1543-1623) A Fancy (Ladye Nevells Booke No.36) 5-45
2 A Voluntarie (Ladye Nevells Booke No.42) 2-33
3 JOHN BULL (1562-1628) Salvator Mundi Deus (British Library Add. Mus. MS 23623) 1-32
4 Fantasia (Vienna Library 17771 fol. 10) 2-57
5 ORLANDO GIBBONS (1583-1625) In Nomine (Cosyn's Virginal Book, page 178) 2-32
6 Fantasia (Cosyn's Virginal Book, page 162) 2-41
7 THOMAS TOMKINS (1572-1656) Fancy (Christ Church Library, Oxford 1113 No.59) 2-05
8 JOHN BLOW (1649-1708) Verset in D Minor (Brit. Libr. Add. Mus. MS 31468 fol. 16) 2-59
9 Prelude in A Re (Brit. Libr. Add. Mus. MS 34695 fol. 21) 2-42
10 MATTHEW LOCKE (c. 1622-1677) For a Double Organ (Melothesia, page 82) 2-41
11 HENRY PURCELL (1659-1695) Voluntary on the Old Hundredth Z 721 3-10
12 Verset (Christ Church Library, Oxford , 1179 page 36) 1-04
13 MAURICE GREENE (1695-1755) Voluntary No. 2 (Largo; Andante) (published c.1780) 3-45
14 G. F. HANDEL(1685-1759) Fugue in F HWV 611 2-43
15-19 Suite: Entrée, Menuet, Gavotte, Air Lentement, Concerto (Allegro) 6-24
20 HENRY PURCELL Voluntary in G Major Z 720 3-07
21 Voluntary in C Major Z 717 1-12
22 Verse in F major Z 716 1-24
23 JAMES NARES (1715-1783) Introduction and Fugue (Six Fugues, London, 1772) 4-36
24 WILLIAM BOYCE (1710-1779) Voluntary No. 7 (Ten Voluntaries , c.1785) 4-49
25 JOHN STANLEY (1713-1786) Voluntary Op.7 No.9 (Ten Voluntaries , 1754) 3-33


----------



## Ingélou

Here are three lovely basse dances:






As always, I'm interested in the comments below the video. There seems to be a bit of flak about whether these dances are 'medieval' or 'renaissance' - either way, they fit into the box 'early music'. But it set me thinking about fashions in history. When I was at school, we wrote dutifully about the renaissance new discoveries and new humanism - but now the orthodox view seems to be that it's a gross oversimplification and that the late medieval period was already undergoing these changes.

Here's a link from the BBC that discusses the matter a little - though without a time machine and a chance to live for a few years in an important late-medieval zone, I'm not sure we can come to any conclusions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/tudors/renaissance_europe_01.shtml


----------



## Dorsetmike

Music from the court of Carlos V (1500-1558)


----------



## Jacck

Philippe de Vitry: Motets & Chansons


----------



## Mandryka

I heard Ensemble Musica Nova sing a programme of Machaut and de Vitry motets and I couldn't hear a stylistic difference in the concert -- in recordings it's always seemed that Machaut was more energetic and electric, but as always, this may be more due to interpretation.

I know that Sequentia CD in the youtube. There's another one by Orlando Consort which is equally valuable, if not more so, not least because it's more reflective, less driven forward. I think he's probably quite an important composer and in a way it's surprising that there isn't more on record -- just one short piece from from Gothic Voices (in _The Service of Venus and Mars_), and nothing from any of the Kees Boeke ensembles, as far as I know.

De Vitry came up big time for me recently because I was reading a lot of François Villon. Villon sees de Vitry as someone who represents precisely the sort of poetry that he is reacting against!


----------



## Jacck

it is interesting that Villon reacted against de Vitry. Villon was born 100 years later, which means that the de Vitry music must have been popular and played at that time for Villon to have known it.


----------



## Mandryka

De Vitry wrote a book called _Les Dits de Franc-Gontier_, which Villon satirised rather mercilessly in _Les contredits de Franc Gontier_

In his novel _Je, François Villon_, Jean Teule gives the impression that De Vitry's poetry was much appreciated in courtly circles in Villon's lifetime, but how much of that is Teule's imagination and how much has some real support is hard to say. Still, Villon felt he was important enough to write the _Contredits_.


----------



## millionrainbows

Ingélou said:


> Shawms - don't you just *love* them? :kiss:
> 
> How could any ill temper or glumness survive a good brisk bout of shawm like this?


That's interesting, I've got that CD as well. The instruments are unusual, and when used as ensembles can be very interesting. This is Frank Zappa played by Ensemble Ambrosius, on these weird medieval instruments.


----------



## Dorsetmike

This link is to a David Munrow CD introducing medieval instruments, followed by some dances and other tunes from Henry Vlll and Elizabethan courts and other contemporary works. Tracks can be downloaded free.

http://www.baroquemusic.org/02Web.html


----------



## PlaySalieri

Marinera said:


> my favourite version. and after on cd follows Byrd's la volta.. delicious.
> 
> full album available on spotify to listen for free.
> 
> I really like the ordering of the pieces on this cd, first are English pieces, then Italian, French and German, but My Lady Carey's Dompe and La Volta works grabbed my attention immediately


Thank goodness I found something on this thread I like - yes that does sound like quite a perky lively CD - the first piece is very good. Apart from this the only other pieces I like are Byrd.


----------



## Ingélou

A beautiful snippet for a Sunday night -

Elizabethan Consort Music,1558-1603
Artists: Hesperion XX, Jordi Savall
Song: Paavin Of Albarti (Alberti)


----------



## Taggart

Beautiful music from Florence


----------



## Dorsetmike

Not absolutely sure this is early music or baroque, all it says is middle ages so probably early


----------



## Dorsetmike

Early Chtistmas music, I sang this as a counter tenor about 40 years ago, I've heard many renditions, I like this one.


----------



## Dorsetmike

Further browsing found this from the end of 15th C


----------



## Ingélou

William Byrd - The Bells (Queen Elizabeth's Virginals) - Trevor Pinnock.





I'm posting as a link not a video in deference to members who've said threads with videos are difficult for them to read.

I love pieces that make use of bell-ringing patterns. This is lovely. 
I always like to read the comments below the videos and this one raised a smile:
*'Give the Byrdy two notes and it will compose sublime musick.﻿'
* 
So true!


----------



## Dirge

«The Woods So Wild» works by William BYRD, Francesco Canova da MILANO, Francis CUTTING, John DOWLAND, and Anthony HOLBORNE
:: Julian Bream, lute [RCA '72]





This album alternates works by four English composers with each of eight fantasias by Italian composer Francesco Canova da Milano. The English-Italian juxtapositions make for a nicely contrasted yet complementary program that's easy to listen to straight through. Bream's «Dances of Dowland» [RCA '67] is an easy-to-recommend companion disc for those partial to Dowland.


----------



## Taggart

A delightful confection of early 16th Century music from the court (and sometimes possibly the pen) of Henry VIII. One of the LPs that brought us into Classical Music.

The two pieces by Henry are an arrangement of Tandernaken and Pastime with good company. Although Greensleeves is also sometimes attributed to him, it is based on a later ground.


----------



## Ingélou

Here's something seasonal that comes under the title of Early Music is Fun - *The Boar's Head Carol. *
(Well, the song is fun, anyway - don't offer me any of the Main Course, please.  )

This is a very palatable (ouch!) version by Magpie Lane.






The lyrics, pasted from Wiki. 

The boar's head in hand bring I, (Or: The boar's head in hand bear I,)
Bedeck'd with bays and rosemary.
And I pray you, my masters, be merry (Or: And I pray you, my masters, merry be)
Quot estis in convivio (Translation: As many as are in the feast)

CHORUS
Caput apri defero (Translation: The boar's head I bear)
Reddens laudes Domino (Translation: Giving praises to the Lord)

The boar's head, as I understand,
Is the rarest dish in all this land,
Which thus bedeck'd with a gay garland
Let us servire cantico. (Translation: Let us serve with a song)

CHORUS

Our steward hath provided this
In honour of the King of Bliss;
Which on this day to be servèd is
In Reginensi atrio. (Translation: In the hall of Queen's [College, Oxford])


----------



## Taggart

We've known this for nearly 45 years. A lovely collection of Elizabethan music excellently sung and played.


----------



## Taggart

Here's another fun piece where early music meets the folk revival. The Young Tradition - Peter Bellamy. Royston Wood, Heather Wood - are joined by David Munrow on Shawm, Roddy and Adam Skeaping on Viols, and Christopher Hogwood on Percussion. (Yes *that* Christopher Hogwood) This is from 1968 the year after Hogwood co-founded the Early Music Consort with David Munrow.


----------



## Jacck

Léonin - Messe du Jour de Noël


----------



## Manxfeeder

Ingélou said:


> Here's something seasonal that comes under the title of Early Music is Fun - *The Boar's Head Carol. *


I've wondered why so many things are named The Boar's Head.

Wiki says this is macaronic because it mixes English with Latin. I've learned two things today. :tiphat:


----------



## Ingélou

Manxfeeder said:


> I've wondered why so many things are named The Boar's Head.
> 
> Wiki says this is macaronic because it mixes English with Latin. I've learned two things today. :tiphat:


I think when pubs are called The Boar's Head it's sometimes heraldic though. 
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...&q=meaning of boar's head as pub sign&f=false

One famous Boar's Head Inn, in Eastcheap, London, is found in Shakespeare's Hency IV Part One, my favourite of his history plays. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boar's_Head_Inn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Macaronic verses are quite a medieval vogue - here's a fourteenth century lyric 'Of one that is so fair and bright' - https://www.sjcchoir.co.uk/listen/sjc-live/britten-b-hymn-virgin

The tune doesn't survive, so rather than use Britten's modern tune, this YouTube video used the survivint tune for another medieval song 'edi beo thu, hevene quene'.






_(When I was learning Latin at school, our teacher taught us a modern macaronic - I remember it declined 'motor bus' as though the first was a third-declension adjective and the second word a second declension noun. It began - 
'What is this that roareth thus - 
Can it be a Motor Bus?
Yes, the smell and hideous hum
Indicat Motorem Bum'

and somewhere a bit later on included the vocative case: 'Spare, O spare us, Motor Be!!'_


----------



## Manxfeeder

Ingélou said:


> _(When I was learning Latin at school, our teacher taught us a modern macaronic - I remember it declined 'motor bus' as though the first was a third-declension adjective and the second word a second declension noun. It began -
> 'What is this that roareth thus -
> Can it be a Motor Bus?
> Yes, the smell and hideous hum
> Indicat Motorem Bum'
> 
> and somewhere a bit later on included the vocative case: 'Spare, O spare us, Motor Be!!'_


I'm learning all kinds of interesting things today.


----------



## Dorsetmike

My recollection of Latin and buses

Fortibus in arro

Translated as 40 buses in a row


----------



## Josquin13

I've decided that for this thread, I'll make a series of lists of favorite 'desert island' discs of music by my favorite early music composers:

To begin, here's a selection of 13 favorite Guillaume de Machaut recordings (plus a few extras):

Guillaume Machaut--"Quant en moy - Amour et Biauté - Amara valda" (Ensemble Musica Nova--possibly my favorite group for the music of Machaut): 




1. https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-mote...sr=1-4-catcorr&keywords=ensemble+nova+machaut
2. https://www.amazon.com/Ballads-MACH...5752624&sr=1-3&keywords=ensemble+nova+machaut
3. https://www.amazon.com/Memoriam-Gui...sr=1-3-catcorr&keywords=ensemble+nova+machaut

Guillaume Machaut--"Felix Virgo - Inviolata Genitrix - Ad Te Suspriamus" (Liber UnUsualis--another favorite group): 




Guillaume Machaut--"Dame, Ne Regardes Pas" (Liber UnUsualis): 




Guillaume Machaut--"Quant en moy - Amour et biaute - Amara valde" (Liber UnUsualis): 




4. https://www.amazon.com/Guillaume-Ma...r=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=liber+usualis+unrequited

Guillaume de Machaut--"Amours me fait désirer" (from Le Jugement du Roi de Navaare: Ensemble Gilles Binchois): 




5., 6., 7. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D0FFKNO/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp (these recordings were originally released by the Accentus label on 3 individual CDs.)

Guillaume de Machaut--"Veni creator spiritus" (Hilliard Ensemble): 




8. https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Mote...qid=1545752281&sr=1-1&keywords=machaut+motets

Guillaume de Machaut--Motets from the Ivrea Codex: "Sanctus - Sanans Fragilia", etc.(The Clerks' Group, led by Edward Wickham--in my estimation, this is one of the finest discs the Clerks' Group have made to date, which is really saying something):

9. https://www.amazon.com/Motets-Music...545751143&sr=1-2&keywords=clerk's+group+codex

10. Guillaume Machaut: 2 Polyphonic Lais (The Medieval Ensemble of London): https://www.amazon.com/2-Polyphonic...&keywords=machaut+medieval+ensemble+of+london

11. Hilliard Ensemble: Messe de 'Notre Dame': 




https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Mess...370&sr=1-1&keywords=hilliard+ensemble+machaut

12. Thomas Binkley's pioneering Studio der frühen Musik set of Machaut Chansons on EMI Reflexe (in vols. 1 & 2):





http://www.sonusantiqva.org/i/S/Studio/1971MachautSongs1.html

13. Guillaume Machaut: "Remede de Fortune", performed by Ensemble Project Ars Nova (or P.A.N.)--Crawford Young & co.: 




https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Reme...80&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=machaut+ensemble+pan

Some extras:

1. "Music of the Gothic Era" by David Munrow & The Early Music Consort of London (Munrow's survey contains three works by Machaut): "Hoquetus David": 




https://www.amazon.com/Music-Gothic...tcorr&keywords=music+of+the+gothic+era+munrow

2. "The Mirror of Narcissus" - Secular Songs by Guillaume de Machaut"--Gothic Voices, led by Christopher Page: "Douce dame, tant come vivray": 




https://www.amazon.com/Mirror-Narci...8&sr=1-1&keywords=mirror+of+narcissus+machaut

3. Machaut: "Douce Dame Jolie"--La Morra, live in performance (one of my favorite groups today): 




4. The Swedish group, Falsobordone: their album is entitled, "Figs, fiddle and fine play", and it includes three works by Machaut (along with works by Landini, Alfonso X, and an incredibly prolific composer whose works appear on many CDs of the period, Anonymous.):

"Je vivroie liement/Liement me deport": 



"Dame, a vouz sans retollir": 




http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Jan06/Falsobordone_Figs_ACACD0043.htm

Finally, my list should include Machaut's "Le Voir Dit" song cycle (& more of Machaut's polyphonic lais), but I'm not sure if the Orlando Consort's recording is the best available or not (any opinions?): https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Song...57041&sr=1-6&keywords=orlando+consort+machaut. I see that Oxford Camerata has also recorded the cycle, too (but I don't know their recording): https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Mess...RCWMX5S39QC&psc=1&refRID=5GRMD2HTXRCWMX5S39QC

Otherwise, I'm afraid I've not kept up with the Orlando Consort's current Hyperion series to record the complete Machaut, but I'm sure it's worthwhile, or parts of it are worthwhile, at least...

Have I missed any of your desert island Machaut discs? If so, I'd like to hear about them.


----------



## Mandryka

That La Morra _Douce Dame Jolie_ makes me think of one of my favourite things in all the world, a song by Loyset Compère called _Le grand desir d'aimer m'y tient_ as sung by Sollazzo Ensemble here, they use a little prelude by Conrad Paumann I think (called _Parle qui veut_) -- the prelude starts at about 20'30 -- but the whole concert is special I think






As far as Machaut concerned, Emma Kirkby sings _La Douce Dame Jolie_ solo on on The Mirror of Narcissus, she can pull it off. I like the La Morra, thanks for pointing it out, but I like Gothic Voices probably more. I think that La Morra make a good encore piece of it though.

Hughes Cuenod recorded it, he does it like it's a song by Schubert of course, but it's good to hear once maybe.






Just look at him, he's wonderful, like Kenneth Williams. He's the man who said that he would never invite a woman to his house for dinner because she might be menstruating and that would make the sauce curdle. I think he was only half in jest.


----------



## Ingélou

Josquin13 said:


> I've decided that for this thread, I'll make a series of lists of favorite 'desert island' discs of music by my favorite early music composers:
> 
> To begin, here's a selection of 13 favorite Guillaume de Machaut recordings (plus a few extras):
> 
> Guillaume Machaut--"Quant en moy - Amour et Biauté - Amara valda" (Ensemble Musica Nova--possibly my favorite group for the music of Machaut):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-mote...sr=1-4-catcorr&keywords=ensemble+nova+machaut
> 2. https://www.amazon.com/Ballads-MACH...5752624&sr=1-3&keywords=ensemble+nova+machaut
> 3. https://www.amazon.com/Memoriam-Gui...sr=1-3-catcorr&keywords=ensemble+nova+machaut
> 
> Guillaume Machaut--"Felix Virgo - Inviolata Genitrix - Ad Te Suspriamus" (Liber UnUsualis--another favorite group):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guillaume Machaut--"Dame, Ne Regardes Pas" (Liber UnUsualis):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guillaume Machaut--"Quant en moy - Amour et biaute - Amara valde" (Liber UnUsualis):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4. https://www.amazon.com/Guillaume-Ma...r=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=liber+usualis+unrequited
> 
> Guillaume de Machaut--"Amours me fait désirer" (from Le Jugement du Roi de Navaare: Ensemble Gilles Binchois):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5., 6., 7. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D0FFKNO/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp (these recordings were originally released by the Accentus label on 3 individual CDs.)
> 
> Guillaume de Machaut--"Veni creator spiritus" (Hilliard Ensemble):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8. https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Mote...qid=1545752281&sr=1-1&keywords=machaut+motets
> 
> Guillaume de Machaut--Motets from the Ivrea Codex: "Sanctus - Sanans Fragilia", etc.(The Clerks' Group, led by Edward Wickham--in my estimation, this is one of the finest discs the Clerks' Group have made to date, which is really saying something):
> 
> 9. https://www.amazon.com/Motets-Music...545751143&sr=1-2&keywords=clerk's+group+codex
> 
> 10. Guillaume Machaut: 2 Polyphonic Lais (The Medieval Ensemble of London): https://www.amazon.com/2-Polyphonic...&keywords=machaut+medieval+ensemble+of+london
> 
> 11. Hilliard Ensemble: Messe de 'Notre Dame':
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Mess...370&sr=1-1&keywords=hilliard+ensemble+machaut
> 
> 12. Thomas Binkley's pioneering Studio der frühen Musik set of Machaut Chansons on EMI Reflexe (in vols. 1 & 2):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.sonusantiqva.org/i/S/Studio/1971MachautSongs1.html
> 
> 13. Guillaume Machaut: "Remede de Fortune", performed by Ensemble Project Ars Nova (or P.A.N.)--Crawford Young & co.:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Reme...80&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=machaut+ensemble+pan
> 
> Some extras:
> 
> 1. "Music of the Gothic Era" by David Munrow & The Early Music Consort of London (Munrow's survey contains three works by Machaut): "Hoquetus David":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Music-Gothic...tcorr&keywords=music+of+the+gothic+era+munrow
> 
> 2. "The Mirror of Narcissus" - Secular Songs by Guillaume de Machaut"--Gothic Voices, led by Christopher Page: "Douce dame, tant come vivray":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Mirror-Narci...8&sr=1-1&keywords=mirror+of+narcissus+machaut
> 
> 3. Machaut: "Douce Dame Jolie"--La Morra, live in performance (one of my favorite groups today):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4. The Swedish group, Falsobordone: their album is entitled, "Figs, fiddle and fine play", and it includes three works by Machaut (along with works by Landini, Alfonso X, and an incredibly prolific composer whose works appear on many CDs of the period, Anonymous.):
> 
> "Je vivroie liement/Liement me deport":
> 
> 
> 
> "Dame, a vouz sans retollir":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Jan06/Falsobordone_Figs_ACACD0043.htm
> 
> Finally, my list should include Machaut's "Le Voir Dit" song cycle (& more of Machaut's polyphonic lais), but I'm not sure if the Orlando Consort's recording is the best available or not (any opinions?): https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Song...57041&sr=1-6&keywords=orlando+consort+machaut. I see that Oxford Camerata has also recorded the cycle, too (but I don't know their recording): https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Mess...RCWMX5S39QC&psc=1&refRID=5GRMD2HTXRCWMX5S39QC
> 
> Otherwise, I'm afraid I've not kept up with the Orlando Consort's current Hyperion series to record the complete Machaut, but I'm sure it's worthwhile, or parts of it are worthwhile, at least...
> 
> Have I missed any of your desert island Machaut discs? If so, I'd like to hear about them.


Hey, great post! I really look forward to trying all these links. :tiphat:
Happy Christmas.


----------



## Josquin13

Mandryka--That Loyset Compère song has long been one of my favorites too, but for some reason, all these years!, I thought it was by Dufay. I must have it on some album that is otherwise works by Dufay, but I can't recall which it is--I'm drawing a blank. I'll have to look into it. Thanks also for the introduction to the Sollazzo Ensemble, they are new to me.

As for Hugues Cuenod, what a comment! His handling of the language, the way he deeply personalizes it, is brilliant & so characterful. They certainly don't sing like that anymore. & we don't know that the singers in Machaut's time didn't sing it like that... whatever David Fallows may say...

Merry Christmas, Ingélou, & happy holidays all! Let's hope for a peaceful year in 2019.


----------



## Mandryka

Sollazzo Ensemble have a couple of recordings, both very much worth catching. Cuenod's diction is good, one of the reasons I feel a bit negative about some monophonic interpretations of Machaut is that the singer's aren't good enough with the poetry. La Morra give themselves a place to hide (i.e. behind the instruments) The poem of _La Douce Dame Jolie_ is quite tender and heart felt and I'm not at all sure that such a jaunty interpretation does it justice - _Le grand desir d'aimer m'y tient_ is a flirt song.

I really think that with Machaut, _primo le parole_!



> https://lyricstranslate.com/en/douce-dame-jolie-sweet-beautiful-lady.html
> 
> Sweet, beautiful lady
> For God's sake, do not think
> That anyone rules over me
> But you alone
> 
> For endlessly, and without falsehood
> I have cherished you
> And humbly
> All the days of my life
> I have served you
> With no unworthy thought
> 
> Alas! and I beg
> For hope and aid
> For my joy is ended
> If you do not take pity
> 
> But your sweet mastery
> Masters
> My heart so harshly
> That it torments
> And binds it
> So much in love
> 
> That it desires nothing
> But to be in your service
> And yet your heart
> Grants it no relief
> 
> And since my sickness
> Will never be healed
> Without you, sweet enemy
> Who is glad
> At my torment
> 
> I join my hands and pray
> To your heart, since it forgets me
> That it should kill me quickly
> For I languish too long


Here's an interesting one, I think Emma Kirkby is the only one who's dared to have a go at it solo on record!


----------



## Mandryka

Josquin13 said:


> Have I missed any of your desert island Machaut discs? If so, I'd like to hear about them.


Yes.







.






.








I like my Machaut sensual and expressive, and I like the harmonies in his polyphonic music to be scrunchy.

The Hilliard motets are streets ahead of anyone else in their grasp of the relation between poem and music, and their bold harmonies.

The Holliger is fabulous for the way Holliger's music echoes the Machaut. Normally I'm not a fan of reinterpretations of early music but what Holliger does here is really interesting, some of the best music he's composed IMO. And it brings out the best in the Hilliard.

The Clemencic has a fabulous HIP mass, and the other music features the great René Zosso, a singer with a deep understanding of modal music, and he's there with his hurdy gurdy- it's a joy from start to end.


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## Ingélou

I have always loved this Coranto since hearing Taggart play it for a piano lesson - and I've found it on YouTube.






The Fitzwilliam Virginal Book is wonderful - 
https://imslp.org/wiki/Fitzwilliam_Virginal_Book:_Contents_Listing.

Taggart now has a modern edition, though he's too busy practising for piano lessons - not to mention our daily folk music sessions on concertina/ fiddle - to play much of it now.

I wonder if any of you on TC have any favourites from this ravishing book?


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## Mandryka

There are two CDs of music from the Fitzwilliam book by Kenneth Weiss which I recommend enthusiastically, especially the one called A Cleare Day, which I think is live, but they're both inspired playing. Another good one which _may _(I haven't checked) contain music from the book is Leonhardt's claviorganum recording on Alpha - all the late Leonhardt recordings are very interesting I think. Hogwood too -- though I have to say I don't know it as well as his lady Nevell's Book.


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> I wonder if any of you on TC have any favourites from this ravishing book?


Yes I do, it's Ton Koopman playing the Picchi toccata


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## Taggart

This was probably the first recording of the Early Music Consort under Munrow's direction. We listened to this - borrowed from Ealing Record Library -when we were first married. We got to know it very well. This means that we can appreciate all the subtleties. If we were coming to it fresh it would be good, but now we know it, it's simply gorgeous. It's also lovely to have on CD with all the notes.


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## Mandryka

Taggart said:


> This was probably the first recording of the Early Music Consort under Munrow's direction. We listened to this - borrowed from Ealing Record Library -when we were first married. We got to know it very well. This means that we can appreciate all the subtleties. If we were coming to it fresh it would be good, but now we know it, it's simply gorgeous. It's also lovely to have on CD with all the notes.


Landini wrote some nice songs.


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## Taggart

Nice music, good performances but a little unsubtle - too little emotion, two basic registers - in your face woodwinds or soft voices. This is of its time - early 1970s - bringing early and Renaissance music out of dark academic cupboards and into vibrant performance. It brought early music to the attention of a large number of people. Modern performances are now more nuanced and reflect the research on performance styles brought about by these early recordingd.


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## Bourdon

Taggart said:


> Nice music, good performances but a little unsubtle - too little emotion, two basic registers - in your face woodwinds or soft voices. This is of its time - early 1970s - bringing early and Renaissance music out of dark academic cupboards and into vibrant performance. It brought early music to the attention of a large number of people. Modern performances are now more nuanced and reflect the research on performance styles brought about by these early recordingd.


 One of my favorites and I still like it.Too litle emotion? not in my experience.I still have the LP and purchased the CD as well.
Nevertheless I understand your opinion ,Munrow is sometimes a bit unsubtle ( very lively ) but not always.


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## Bourdon

*The Feast of Fools*


----------



## Mandryka

Taggart said:


> Nice music, good performances but a little unsubtle - too little emotion, two basic registers - in your face woodwinds or soft voices. This is of its time - early 1970s - bringing early and Renaissance music out of dark academic cupboards and into vibrant performance. It brought early music to the attention of a large number of people. Modern performances are now more nuanced and reflect the research on performance styles brought about by these early recordingd.


I don't know this recording, is it just instrumental?

There aren't many C 15 instrumental music recordings I like in fact - I hear a lot of performances which are basically a drum pounding out a simple pulse for a simple tune. It'd be interesting to get some suggestions for really interesting performances of gothic instrumental music.

Here's one which I think is a cut above most others, I only got it last week. That's because some of the players are very experienced with singers who use modal techniques, independent voicing in counterpoint aligned to make the cross relations harmonically exciting - so the music becomes slightly more than just a thrilling ride.









But still, it's not « great poetry », just a romp at the end of the day, sort of thing suitable for a folk night in a pub, or for a market square in some medieval town on a weekend.


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## Ingélou

Bourdon said:


> One of my favorites and I still like it.Too litle emotion? not in my experience.I still have the LP and purchased the CD as well.
> Nevertheless I understand your opinion ,Munrow is sometimes a bit unsubtle ( very lively ) but not always.


Taggart & I do still like it - but have heard so many (for us) 'even better' ones that I suspect our palates are spoiled. 

We personally owe a big debt of gratitude to David Munrow for introducing us to aural delight, as does the world of Early Music. I can never get over feeling so sad that he took his own life. 

@Mandryka - yes, it's vocal as well as instrumental. There are some very beautiful songs sung by countertenor(s).


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## Bourdon

Taggart said:


> This was probably the first recording of the Early Music Consort under Munrow's direction. We listened to this - borrowed from Ealing Record Library -when we were first married. We got to know it very well. This means that we can appreciate all the subtleties. If we were coming to it fresh it would be good, but now we know it, it's simply gorgeous. It's also lovely to have on CD with all the notes.


I was looking for this CD but could not find it.Is it still called ECCO LA PRIMAVERA ?


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## Bourdon

Ingélou said:


> Taggart & I do still like it - but have heard so many (for us) 'even better' ones that I suspect our palates are spoiled.
> 
> We personally owe a big debt of gratitude to David Munrow for introducing us to aural delight, as does the world of Early Music. I can never get over feeling so sad that he took his own life.
> 
> @Mandryka - yes, it's vocal as well as instrumental. *There are some very beautiful songs *sung by countertenor(s).


 Very true.:tiphat:


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## Taggart

Bourdon said:


> I was looking for this CD but could not find it.Is it still called ECCO LA PRIMAVERA ?


See https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000025H27/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I got a second hand copy for 13 euros.

Or https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ecco-Primavera-Florentine-Music-Century/dp/B01N8PQG1W for an mp3 version.


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## Zofia

Taggart said:


> By early music I mean anything pre 1600. Usually starting after 1100, but Jordi Savall and others can find some good stuff before that.
> 
> There is already a group for Early Music - https://www.talkclassical.com/groups/early-birds.html .
> 
> This is a thread where we can discuss our favourite pieces and present new discoveries.
> 
> I got into classical music from folk and then from David Munrow.


May ai join the Early Birds?


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## Ingélou

Zofia said:


> May ai join the Early Birds?


No problem - just join. It isn't an 'invitation only' group. :tiphat:


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## philoctetes

The Art of Courtly Love was my first early music album. This one is my latest. I wanted it for xmas but it arrived for my birthday instead 

A lot of reviewers complained about this group's Ockeghem, which also disappointed me as well. But last night I really enjoyed the independence between the voices on this one.

This is the 500y centennial for La Rue. He has become my favorite 16c polyphonist judging from my habits and collection. The Sound & The Fury also released a new set last week which sold out on Amazon immedately.


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## Mandryka

philoctetes said:


> The Art of Courtly Love was my first early music album. This one is my latest. I wanted it for xmas but it arrived for my birthday instead
> 
> A lot of reviewers complained about this group's Ockeghem, which also disappointed me as well. But last night I really enjoyed the independence between the voices on this one.
> 
> This is the 500y centennial for La Rue. He has become my favorite 16c polyphonist judging from my habits and collection. The Sound & The Fury also released a new set last week which sold out on Amazon immedately.


What's wrong with their Ockeghem, I thought it was rather good? La Rue is more difficult for me to enjoy in fact, and I've not explored either of the new recordings very much. What I can report is that I rather enjoyed Beauty Farm in the Missa Sancto Antonio, and I was a bit put off by the haendel style countertenor on Sound and the Fury's recording.


----------



## philoctetes

Mandryka said:


> What's wrong with their Ockeghem, I thought it was rather good? La Rue is more difficult for me to enjoy in fact, and I've not explored either of the new recordings very much. What I can report is that I rather enjoyed Beauty Farm in the Missa Sancto Antonio, and I was a bit put off by the haendel style countertenor on Sound and the Fury's recording.


I love Ockeghem as much but... some complaints were about the sound. It may be a little grainy. The La Rue is more resonant. I felt there were mid-to-upper pitch problems with the Ockeghem which may have been the same "independence" I praise in the La Rue. Just seems to work better here, perhaps the range of voices is broader, less congested.... I've also read that La Rue was a bass-lover which agrees with what I hear.

I'll listen for that haendel CT now that you mention it which I would not like either. It's hard to find words to describe these things we like and don't like in this music.


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## Mandryka

Putting aside reactions to voices, the L'homme Arme mass on Sound and Fury's La Rue is well worth hearing, it's a very nice piece of music.

I believe there's another recording of it from Ensemble Clement Janequin, but I haven't heard it. It's so strange that this L'homme arme tune inspired composers so much -- I was reading somewhere that people think it's actually a spiritual song, like Onward Christian Soldiers.


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## science

Early music lovers, I am desperately in need of your help!

If you are unfamiliar with the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works, please check it out. It's a project that I hope will help many people explore classical music.

The reason we need your help is that the people putting it together right now aren't particularly fond of early music, so really great works are winding up far, far, far too far down the list.

I know that games/projects/polls like this aren't everyone's cup of tea - inevitably, some works we love get too low on the list, and of course some people even have philosophical objections to helping other people explore culture this way. But even at this early stage of the project, I feel it is helping people explore classical music, so if you can bring yourself to help us, I would really appreciate it.

If you're willing to help, currently you can vote  here (the 35th tier) (with early music options including works by Byrd and Josquin, and Zelenka could use your help), and here (the 46th tier) (early music options include Taverner, Teixeira, and the Medici codex), and here (the lowest, currently 57th, tier) (dozens of works of early music needing help). You could even vote here (the 6th tier) if you want to, but there are no works of early music on that board. Each thread has slightly different rules, so check the bold font in the OP of each one.

We are also in need of more people who like opera and post-Schoenberg music, so if you can help with that as well, I am desperate beyond telling for your participation!


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## Mandryka

Taggart said:


> Nice music, good performances but a little unsubtle - too little emotion, two basic registers - in your face woodwinds or soft voices. This is of its time - early 1970s - bringing early and Renaissance music out of dark academic cupboards and into vibrant performance. It brought early music to the attention of a large number of people. Modern performances are now more nuanced and reflect the research on performance styles brought about by these early recordingd.


I've had a chance to hear this now and I must say I really enjoyed it, more than you. It's true that I tend to skip the loud dancy type instrumental tracks, but there aren't many of them and the singing is full of soul I think. Anyway, thanks for pointing it out to me.

Re instrumental music this is a new release which seems to me, initial reaction of course, rather successful with the same caveats for the dance bits. The singing is full of character.


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## Dirge

«Sacred and Secular Music» from six centuries
The Hilliard Ensemble [Hyperion '87/'89]

This is a splendid album of various and sundry works from the 11th through the 16th centuries, from Herman the Cripple's _Salve regina_ to William Byrd's _Ne irascaris Domine/Civitas sancti tui_. Unlike most Hilliard albums, there's no theme to this one; it's mostly just Hilliard recital favorites from its late '80s heyday (before Paul Hillier left the group). The group is in especially good voice in these sessions, and Hyperion captures the goings-on in especially good sound-more rounded, refined, and natural, as I hear it, than anything EMI or ECM provides the group.

I'm not generally a fan of music from before the time of Dunstaple, but I rather like the three early works that open the album: Herman the Cripple's _Salve regina_ (an antiphon sung most affectingly here by countertenor David James), Godefroy de St Victoire's _Planctus ante nescia_ (a long sequence of stanzas, each with slightly different music of its own, sung here by tenor John Potter with drone accompaniment from baritone Paul Hillier), and Guillaume de Machaut's _Quant je sui mis_ (an uncharacteristically simple, tuneful song from the characteristically complex composer, sung here by tenor Rogers Covey-Crump).

The post-Dunstaple highlights of the program are the sublime accounts of Heinrich Isaac's _Tota pulchra es_ and William Byrd's _Ne irascaris Domine/Civitas sancti tui_, two of my very favorite motets. In _Tota pulchra es_, a Song of Songs motet, Isaac treads the precipitous ridge between sacred devotion and earthly love with the skill of a mountain goat, causing lovers to pray and prayers to blush. If the seeming incongruity between risqué text and religious context isn't entirely resolved by Isaac's setting, any uneasiness that remains only spices things up from an entertainment standpoint. An interesting aspect and turning point of the motet is the conspicuous shift from the very tight, canon-like relationship between voices in the first part to the much freer relationship in the second-you can almost feel yourself relax and breath easier after the changeover.

Byrd, a sly Catholic in Elizabethan England, composed several works in protest of the persecution of Catholics in England at that time; the double motet _Ne irascaris Domine/Civitas sancti tui_ is one such work. Although Byrd was a favorite of the Queen, he couldn't get away with being conspicuously at odds with Her, so he couched his protests in metaphor, using unassailable passages from the Bible: in this case, he set passages from Isaiah relating to the Babylonian captivity. _Ne irascaris Domine_ is an appeal to God, while _Civitas sancti tui_ is a blunt assessment of the Jewish state: "The holy cities are a wilderness. Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation." Byrd exploits the plight of the Jews and milks the metaphorical cow to get his protest message across, but it's done with such Teflon-coated guile that no accusation or charge made against him could possibly stick. A particularly affecting passage occurs partway into the second part when Byrd temporarily switches from polyphony to homophony to give sad, understated emphasis to the words "Sion deserta facta est"-very nice.

The only disappointment in the program is the unfortunate inclusion of Guillaume Dufay's tawdry little _Gloria ad modem tubae_, perhaps my least favorite Dufay work. The album concludes vividly and vigorously with a very show-offy performance of Clément Janequin's very show-offy _Le chant de oiseaulx_-birdsong run amok.

Addendum: You can stream all of the album tracks in their entirety in high-quality MP3 sound from the Classical M music shop …
http://www.classicalm.com/en/disk/6...-Music-from-Six-Centuries---Hilliard-Ensemble


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## Enthusiast

Taggart said:


> This was probably the first recording of the Early Music Consort under Munrow's direction. We listened to this - borrowed from Ealing Record Library -when we were first married. We got to know it very well. This means that we can appreciate all the subtleties. If we were coming to it fresh it would be good, but now we know it, it's simply gorgeous. It's also lovely to have on CD with all the notes.


I guess I was also a regular user of the Ealing record library (actually West Ealing?) when that came out! I probably even borrowed it (although at the time my interest in Munrow and early music was peripheral). I got to know so much music from that library. My parents had 100s of LPs but once I had been through the ones that interested me (I wasn't much into chamber music at the time) it was the library that fed my growing habit!


----------



## philoctetes

Mandryka said:


> Putting aside reactions to voices, the L'homme Arme mass on Sound and Fury's La Rue is well worth hearing, it's a very nice piece of music.


After a few days away to ski Tahoe I've come back to comparing S&F with Beauty Farm on La Rue and Gombert and hearing some differences in performance. The latter goes with longer phrases with blended voices while S&F are more determined to separate the voices, leaving any pitch instability open to exposure, and are not always successful to my ears. So my opinion of Beauty Farm has been enhanced by this matchup, which was not what I was expecting.

Yeah that S&F counter-tenor is a hoot, and other voices are even using vibrato! But I agree about L'Homme Arme which is what I'm listening to now, and it's not so bad.


----------



## Mandryka

philoctetes said:


> After a few days away to ski Tahoe I've come back to comparing S&F with Beauty Farm on La Rue and Gombert and hearing some differences in performance. The latter goes with longer phrases with blended voices while S&F are more determined to separate the voices, leaving any pitch instability open to exposure, and are not always successful to my ears. So my opinion of Beauty Farm has been enhanced by this matchup, which was not what I was expecting.
> 
> Yeah that S&F counter-tenor is a hoot, and other voices are even using vibrato! But I agree about L'Homme Arme which is what I'm listening to now, and it's not so bad.


Truth is I need to give these recordings more time, but what you hearis what I hear, though I'm not ready yet to make an evaluation or state a preference. Generally I'm not so bothered about pitch instability -- sometimes I think it may be expressive and often I'm so cloth eared that I don't pick up on it! I have in the past had a problem appreciating Beauty Farm, though recently I revisited one of their Gombert CDs and found it very satisfying emotionally and intellectually, the time is due for a reassessment on my part I think.

One thing I am clear about -- there is a very big difference in approach between Sound and Fury and Beauty Farm.

There are issues with de la Rue which I would quite like to explore sometime, to do with pitch. Many ensembles find the ambitus of the music a problem and transpose some parts up. I know this is a big question in the Requiem, and possibly elsewhere.


----------



## Jacck

I found a recording of Carmina burana, that I find special. If someone asked me to recommend him a single medievel music CD, this might be it














the second recommendation would be Machaut, then Perotin


----------



## Jacck

J'ay pris Amours : Chansons au luth du XVIème siècle | Claudine Ansermet & Paolo Cherici


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## Mandryka

As far as I know there are only three recordings of the La Rue Requiem at the written pitch - Vox Early Music Ensemble, Diabolus in Musica and The Sound and the Fury. Is that right?

I'm not sure why so many performances have raised the pitch. Has anyone explored this?


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## Jacck

REQUIEM - A. Divitis?- A. de Févin?. ENSEMBLE ORGANUM


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## Jacck

Salve Mater Salve Jesu: Chant and polyphony from Bohemia 1500




nice relaxing music, I listened to the whole video


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## Dirge

Three armed men …

Antoine BUSNOIS: Missa "L'homme armé" _a_ 4 (1450s ?)
:: Turner/Pro Cantione Antiqua [Archiv '78]
with Alan Cuckston (positive organ) & Alan Lumsden (sackbutt)





Guillaume DUFAY: Missa "L'homme armé" _a_ 4 (1460s ?)
:: Hillier/Hilliard Ensemble [EMI '86]





JOSQUIN des Prez: Missa "L'homme armé" super voces musicales _a_ 4 (1490s ?)
:: Turner/Pro Cantione Antiqua [Archiv '76]





These are my favorite products of the "L'homme armé" ("The Armed Man") craze that took hold of composers of masses for much of the early and middle Renaissance-over 40 masses built around the unlikely cantus firmus survive from the period. What didn't survive are the whys and wherefores of it all, the origin of the craze and of the feisty tune itself. Busnois was long thought to be a good candidate for originator of both, but he seems to have fallen in the polls in recent years. The most entertaining would-be histories offered up by historians and musicologists revolve around The Order of the Golden Fleece, the fall of Constantinople in 1453 and a call to arms for a new Crusade, the effective end of the Hundred Years' War in 1453, and/or a certain tavern (Maison L'Homme Armé) just down the street from Dufay's residence in Cambrai. Of course, it goes without saying that the Knights Templar are involved, but I'm not at liberty to divulge more. Whatever its origin, "L'homme armé" soon became a call to compose, compelling every composer worth his salt to compose a mass using the theme as its cantus firmus. While I suppose that some such masses may have been written to the greater glory of the Creator, I've got to believe that the majority were written to the much lesser glory of their small-"c" creators in order to show off their talent and one-up the competition-Renaissance composers were a notoriously egomaniacal and competitive lot if liner notes, Wikipedia articles, Amazon.com user reviews, monk blogs, the Ancient Free and Accepted Masons secret newsletter, and other such seemingly incontrovertible sources are to be believed.

Despite the common cantus firmus, the masses are quite different in character: the Busnois is one of the most vivid and outgoing masses of its day, with Busnois putting the singers through the Renaissance vocal ringer. The writing is very athletic and colorfully textured, enlivened by Busnois' rhythmic flair and knack for syncopation and for his interesting use of ostinato and cross-rhythms, and the music is a good deal more formally grounded than its free-spirited front might suggest. By all accounts, the Mass was very influential for many generations, especially as regards rhythmic matters, and more sources and copies of it survive than of any other "L'homme armé" mass. In modern times, however, it seems to be more written about than performed or listened to (if the number of recordings-only two so far as I know-is any indication of such things).

The Josquin is in many ways a throwback to the pre-dawn of the Renaissance, a more rigorous and prescribed and mathematically oriented time when mensuration canons and isorhythmic motets still roamed the Earth. Such prescribed formality and respect for the old ways might sound like a recipe for one deadly dull mass, but Josquin here thrives on the challenge of composing within these bounds, which seems to focus and inspire him to be as inventive as possible "within the rules," to make the utmost of what he's still free to do. In effect, the more he embraces these limitations, the more he transcends them, finding a rare and elusive beauty in the abstract polyphonic rigor and a sincere and unaffected expressiveness within the formal confines of the past. This is far and away my favorite Renaissance mass setting. [The "super voces musicales" of the title indicates that the "L'homme armé" theme is transposed one step higher up the hexachord in each succeeding movement: C (Kyrie) > D (Gloria) > E (Credo) > F (Sanctus) > G (Agnus Dei I) > A (Agnus Dei III).]

The Dufay strikes me as a vehicle for the composer to show off his skill at bending the cantus firmus to his will: ornamenting, varying, morphing, deconstructing, and otherwise transforming it so cleverly and to such an extent that the layman (that would be me) can be excused for failing to follow along, let alone recognize the theme's new incarnations. It's all very inside baseball, as illustrated by Dufay's famous "crab" canon of Agnus Dei III (which is neither a crab canon nor a canon at all in the modern musical sense, but a written instruction, a canon, that happens to reference the humble crab): "Cancer eat plenus sed redeat medius" … "The Crab goes out full but comes back half." This cryptic canon conveys to those in the know that the cantus firmus is to be performed first in retrograde motion (in music contexts, the crab is associated with moving backwards/retrograde motion "from the mistaken mediæval notion that crabs move backwards") and then forward in diminution with rhythmic values halved (doubling the speed). Other sections of the Mass are no doubt as cleverly contrived in their various ways, but they lack the riddle-me-this intrigue and catchy crustacean cognomen of the "crab" canon and have failed to achieve the same level of notoriety. The Sanctus is the only movement that I can sort of/kind of follow along with, as Dufay presents fragments of the theme here and there, only allowing them to come together and coalesce in the second Osanna-I've always found fragments and variations in search of their theme very appealing for some reason. Of course, Dufay integrates and subsumes this search into a complex overall setting that I mostly can't follow along with … but I take my little victories where I can.

Bruno Turner & Pro Cantione Antiqua (PCA) put the Josquin across with tremendous conviction in a highly wrought performance that has all the earnestness and ardency and inner intensity and sense of purpose that any listener could ask for-more than many listeners may want, in fact. Turner has ten singers at hand for the four parts, but I don't think that he uses more than two voices per part at any given time, and he often cuts back to one voice per part. Vocal balances aren't always ideal, with slightly prominent countertenors and slightly reticent basses at times, and the very countertenor-y sounding countertenors won't win over those who hate countertenors, but such matters tend to be forgotten once one is drawn into the performance. PCA's performance is also notable for the character and individuality of each singer's voice (as opposed to the uniformity and anonymity of the voices of groups like the Tallis Scholars). PCA is not everyone cup of tea, but for my taste, no group comes close to PCA in this mass.

PCA is very nearly as compelling in the Busnois, with only a rather brisk Agnus Dei giving me pause. Turner has only six singers at hand here, so one voice per part is more the rule, but he brings in a positive organ and a sackbutt to reinforce things in a few spots; they're employed deftly and subtly enough so that only hard-core purists will object, however. Andrew Kirkman and the Binchois Consort [Hyperion '01] offer a fine alternative, with a slower Agnus Dei and no instruments. The singing of the Binchois Consort is a bit more polished but two bits less distinctive/characterful than that of PCA.

Paul Hillier has eight singers (including himself) at his disposal for the Dufay, deploying them as he sees fit. The pace is moderate, dynamics are a bit conservative, focus and concentration are unflagging, and there's great attention to detail without fussiness-a vintage Hilliard Ensemble performance in other words (with the countertenors sounding less "hooty" and more dignified than they sometimes do in later recordings).


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## Ingélou

Hey, what a fab post, Dirge! :tiphat:


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## Mandryka

Isn't it odd how this cantus firmus should have inspired so many high quality mass settings?


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## Iota

_John Sheppard, Missa Cantate_
Gabrieli Consort, McCreesh

A piece of music so beautiful it makes it possible to believe that it was all downhill after this. Not that that is something I do believe, but in the heat of playing, anything seems possible. I must say I tend to skip the lengthy interpolations between the Mass sections (anonymous chant-procession music aspiring to reflect liturgical authenticity, I think) which just detract from the work for me.

Performed wonderfully in an acoustic that I find perfect for its buoyant nature.


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## LezLee

Heard on radio 3 yesterday, a song by Bartolomeo Tromboncino, all-round bad guy who murdered his wife. Could write a good tune though. Sung by Marco Beasley. Great name, lovely voice.


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## Taggart

An excellent collection of chant, antiphons and songs in praise of Our Lady beautifully sung. This is a programme of music that follows the basic structure of the Lady Mass, once so popular in England. There are two items in English, the charming strophic song _Edi beo thu_ and the gentle sequence _Jesu Christes milde moder_.


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## Mandryka

Taggart said:


> An excellent collection of chant, antiphons and songs in praise of Our Lady beautifully sung. This is a programme of music that follows the basic structure of the Lady Mass, once so popular in England. There are two items in English, the charming strophic song _Edi beo thu_ and the gentle sequence _Jesu Christes milde moder_.


The thing I've enjoyed the most from them is the Landini


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## Dirge

Guillaume de MACHAUT: Messe de Nostre Dame (c. 1363) _with Gregorian Proper for the Feast of the Assumption_
:: Dominique Vellard/Ensemble Gilles Binchois [Harmonic/Cantus '90]

Ordinary: countertenor, tenor, baritone & bass
Proper: performers drawn from a pool of two tenors, two baritones & bass






This assuringly poised and harmonious performance takes the work's many rhythmic and harmonic innovations/idiosyncrasies in stride, neither playing them up nor playing them down. Indeed, nothing about the work is played up or played down in context, as the performance is almost preternaturally moderate, straitlaced, well-balanced, and well-regulated. Such an approach risks boring the hell out of the poor listener, but Vellard and company manage to pull it off by virtue of sheer virtue: the singing here is almost impossibly good, boasting the most finely polished execution, the most beautiful and beautifully matched/balanced/blended voices, and the most sensuous phrasing that I ever expect to hear in this strangely piquant mass setting. The unruffled, finely woven sonic textures that result allow even the smallest gesture to be discerned and tell, so the group can say more with less and remain that much more faithful to form. The energy of the performance is more subsumed and internalized than usual, manifesting itself not so much in dynamics and rhythmic drive as in unflagging focus & concentration, which goes to the exquisitely maintained underlying tension and sense of cohesion/coherence felt throughout. The Proper is given the same care as the Ordinary, and I feel almost guilty when I skip over it. The producer/engineer must have caught the audio devil napping, as the recorded sound is well-nigh ideal/perfect.

My own preference would be for a somewhat more dynamic, driven, and dramatic performance, but I've yet to encounter one that's anywhere near as accomplished in its way as this one is in _its_ way.


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## Mandryka

Vellard gets some lovely diction out of the singers. I like the unemphatic, non-explosive, way of producing sounds. 

There's a pure clean white feeling about the performance, my impression is that they harmonise in a white note way, they sing with quite a straight tone, they don't do much embellishment (dynamic for example) at a micro level I also have the impression that they all sing in line, without a great feeling of independence of the voices. 

It may be an idea to try to listen to the whole mass, propers and ordinaries, if you ever feel in the mood for an experiment. I know someone who reckons that that changes the experience for the better, I'm not sure myself.


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## LezLee

On Radio 3. Marco Beasley again. A traditional Italian song, couldn't find a date.


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## Mandryka

I've started to explore John Browne's music. Is this CD the only one with substantial amounts of music by him, apart from Steven Dalington's survey of the Eton Choirbook? (He has five pieces spread over four CDs)

Wiki lists these pieces



wikipedia said:


> O Maria salvatoris mater
> Stabat mater dolorosa
> Stabat virgo mater Christi
> Stabat juxta Christi crucem
> O regina mundi clara
> Salve regina mater misericordiae
> Salve regina mater misericordiae
> Ave lux totius mundi (lost)
> Gaude flore virginali (lost)
> O mater venerabilis
> Stabat virgo mater Christi
> Magnificat: Et exultavit spiritus meus (lost)
> Magnificat: Et exultavit spiritus meus
> Magnificat: Et exultavit spiritus meus (lost)
> Magnificat: Et exultavit spiritus meus (lost)
> Jesu, Mercy, How May This Be?


Apart from Darlington and Phillips, Parrott and Schmelzer have recorded two pieces by Browne, Huelgas and Tonus Pregrinus a piece each.

As far as the music itself is concerned, I can do no better than to quote Bjorn Schmelzer's typically inspiring comments



Bjorn Schmelzer said:


> The Stabat mater is a strange kind of Passion
> play, or in the spirit of Lewis Carroll's"a grin without a
> cat", it is a Passion without the play.Things are staged
> as events rather than as embodied personified figures. Browne takes the pedagogical aim of the Stabat
> mater text literally and imbues it with counterpoint
> and imitation technique in order to evoke and create
> the event of the Passion.
> The Salve regina is probably one of the most
> beautiful ever written (I would dare to claim, albeit
> alongside the two written by Jacob Obrecht around
> the same time.) Every word sits in its musical arrangement like an affective rumination. Both composers
> share the idea of music as an instrument to make the
> text not just comprehensible but plastic and even liquid, so that it is directly understood in its capacity to
> move the listener through matter.


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## Mandryka

Here's Browne Salve Regina a 6 (I think a 6) as interpretetd by Schmelzer -- unbelievably fluid music making. Schmelzer's idea is that the embellishment is completely indistinguishable from the structure, and that the each voice, each syllable, each attack, should be surprising and expressive, no predictability or anonymity allowed -- and yet the resulting texture is coherent.


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## Biwa

I was reminded of this performance by a post on another thread. Just thought I'd share it.


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## Taggart

O rare Jordi Savall. An excellent bag of delights. This follows on from his exploration of the folia. A selection of ostinato patterns - ruggiero, passacaglia, passamezzo (modernao and antico), romanesco, chaconne, canarios and some English grounds. Although the patterns are the same, the various composers get a lot out of them and the instrumental textures are excellent. What was surprising was how close the romanesca (Recercada VII) by Ortiz came to Greensleeves. Equally, the variations on Greensleeves at the end showed the possibilities of the ground. We found the earlier pieces preferable to the later examples by Purcell. Savall included a (fast) version of Pachelbel's canon and gigue as an example of a later chaconne. A delightful set of tunes performed in great style.


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## Mandryka

Ostinato is a really central idea in English music, where it's often called a "Ground" There's a nice CD which collects several together by Collin Booth


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## Iota

Ingélou said:


> Hey, what a fab post, Dirge! :tiphat:


Indeed, fascinating stuff, Dirge! I will certainly be following some or all of those performances up.

There are moments in the Josquin _Missa L'homme armé super voces musicales_, that the cantus firmus (at least, I think it's the cf) is being sung in long note values, when the contrast of speeds at which the voices are moving sounds almost contemporary. A wondrous work. 
I've never heard the Busnois, a situation I intend to remedy.


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## Taggart

Technically, it's called a prolation canon. The reason it sounds modern is that it has been [picked up by a number of moderns. See the references in the wiki article.


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## Haydn70

Ockeghem: Missa prolationum


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## Mandryka

In that Wikipedia article they discuss a prolation in the first L'homme Armé mass by Josquin (ie not svm) saying



> In the original score, only one part is given: a notation over the single line of music indicates the three prolations to be used, and a second notation over the line indicates where each voice should end if sung correctly.


So we are given the the start point of one voice, the end point of all the voices, and the relative speeds of all the voices. We're told nothing in the score about any embellishments etc. And yet, from the same article



> Prolation canons are among the most difficult canons to write


It's as if Josquin left the difficulties to the singers to work out!

This is the sort of thing Bach did in the canons of Musical Offering I think.


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## Iota

Thanks for the above links.



Mandryka said:


> So we are given the the start point of one voice, the end point of all the voices, and the relative speeds of all the voices. We're told nothing in the score about any embellishments etc ...
> It's as if Josquin left the difficulties to the singers to work out!


Strange. Perhaps one could extrapolate that singers were routinely skilled at such things, in the manner that later all keyboardists were with figured bass? 
And could it be that once the original part and its prolations are given by Josquin, it's just a question of doing the maths, i.e once you have the original part to work from, you're just calculating fractions or multiples of the original note values (perhaps with one or two small changes)? And then you have the back-up of the start and end points of the prolations, to check you've done it right?

This is all absolutely amateur speculation, so apologies if it's wide of the mark.



Mandryka said:


> In that Wikipedia article they discuss a prolation in the first L'homme Armé mass by Josquin (ie not svm)


From what I'd read, I thought Super voces musicales was the first L'homme Arme setting by Josquin?


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## Taggart

Wiki says



> Example of a prolation canon Agnus Dei from Missa l'homme armé* super voces musicales*, by Josquin des Prez


My emphasis.


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## Mandryka

I don’t know which L’homme armée is earlier, I’d always assumed that svm is because I like it more than the other! 

I suspect that the singers were very well trained and that they had quite a bit of discretion about how to let the voices relate as the canon unfolds. Christopher Page once said, maybe mischievously, that the English cathedral choir tradition most closely emulates the practices of singers in the C14 a C 15 because the singers are so well trained to just get on with the job and sing complicated music without making a fuss.

Preparing performing editions of any of these pieces is the stuff of experts, even as late as Josquin I think (Ockeghem certainly, I know more about him than Josquin), you can’t just sing from the manuscripts obviously, and there’s often quite a lot of guesswork involved, people write doctorates on making performing editions. Basically no one really knows what the scores mean.


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## Mandryka

This is by John Browne, O Regina Mundi, I love this performance, Darlington takes his time (he always does) and it pays off I think. And the blend is well judged - there's still a sense of individual characters singing.






Browne and Fayrfax are rapidly becoming my favourite English composers from the second half of the C15. I'm enjoying their music more than Taverner's at the moment, because it seems less flamboyant, more introverted, which I like.

This set of 5 CDs by Darlington dedicated to the Eton Choirbook is more my cup of tea than The Sixteen's, despite the boy singers Darlington uses. That's not fair on the children, who comporte themselves well enough, it's just that I'm not so keen on the timbre, there are no kids in this piece by Browne. Harry Christophers is too much in the mainstream English cathedral tradition of blended large choirs for me, though maybe I should give him more time.


----------



## Dirge

Tomás Luis de VICTORIA: _O vos omnes_
:: Malcolm/Westminster Catherdral Choir [Argo '59]





_O vos omnes_ is the most popular of the 18 Tenebrae Responsories that Victoria included in his «Officium Hebdomadae Sanctae» of 1585. The Responsories are solemn and austere yet starkly dramatic motet settings of texts recounting the Passion-the suffering, crucifixion, and death-of Christ. Malcolm's inspired choir sings the bejeezus out of it.


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## LezLee

Can't go wrong with Jordi Savall!
Oops! Just spotted Taggart's post. Never mind


----------



## Dirge

«Danses Anciennes de Hongrie et de Transylvanie»
:: Clemencic Consort [HM '77]





This motley assortment of dances and whatnot, mostly from Northern Hungary and bordering regions, draws from various 17th-century music collections/codices found in those regions. The music sounds more rudimentary and less courtly than the stuff found in, say, Arbeau's «Orchésographie», and it's played with mediæval gusto by René Clemencic and his merry men.

The original LP was very popular with audiophiles back in the day, as the recording is amazingly vivid and atmospheric, with true-to-life timbral reproduction and a "you are there" soundstage. The YouTube video does the recording a terrible disservice, and I will no doubt be brought before the Audiophile Inquisition on charges of sonic heresy for providing a link to it.


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## Marinera

Dirge said:


> «Danses Anciennes de Hongrie et de Transylvanie»
> :: Clemencic Consort [HM '77]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This motley assortment of dances and whatnot, mostly from Northern Hungary and bordering regions, draws from various 17th-century music collections/codices found in those regions. The music sounds more rudimentary and less courtly than the stuff found in, say, Arbeau's «Orchésographie», and it's played with mediæval gusto by René Clemencic and his merry men.
> 
> The original LP was very popular with audiophiles back in the day, as the recording is amazingly vivid and atmospheric, with true-to-life timbral reproduction and a "you are there" soundstage. The YouTube video does the recording a terrible disservice, and I will no doubt be brought before the Audiophile Inquisition on charges of sonic heresy for providing a link to it.


Great recording! Besides, I really like dances from that region. Sadly it's completely sold out, I hope Harmonia Mundi reissues this recording.


----------



## Mandryka

The booklet essay is not totally uninteresting



> HUNGARY AND TRANS YL VANIA FOR-med the outermost bastions of European culture in the 17th century. «The country, split into three parts (Habsburg territories, Turkish dominions, and Transylvania) and torn by incessant wars and internal strife, adapted itself to a provisional form of «frontier) existence. On the one hand attempts were made to recover the lost independence of the - Hungarian state, while on the other, the desperate condi-tion of the oppressed serfs made the land the scene of repeated peasant uprisings) (B. Szabolcsi). The Slovaks, who had been annexed to Hungary, were more or less easily assimilated. The common people clung with greater tenacity to their own traditions than was the case with the up-per classes. A welter of different languages - Hungarian, Slovak, German, Rumanian, and Croatian - was spoken in this unique -cultural melting-pot at the extreme fringe of the European world. Musical life assumed forms which had been known in Western Europe in the 13th and 14th centuries. Wandering music-ians, who had the status of vassals, turned up at the courts of the feudal magnates, but virtually no communication existed between the various centres of musical activity. The religious and social functions of music were far more important than
> the aesthetic. Music at the courts and in the churches was of the «figured bass) style of the Baroque era, and even tunes from popular folk music were readily arranged in this manner. However, genuine folk music remained free from this type of sophistication. Italian, French, and Germ-an ideas were often taken over unquestion-ingly by court musicians, although numer-ous arrangements of folk melodies and rhythms were also made. Gregorian melo-dic material was added to the existing church music. Several sources reveal information regard-ing the combinations of instruments in the bands at the feudal courts. Side by side with the usual Western instruments (strings, cornetts, trombones, trumpets, drums, lutes, virginals, harpsichords, and small organs) one almost invariably finds the Hungarian-Slovak cimbalom (a relative of the dulcimer) and the bagpipe. From a report written in 1683 we learn the fol-lowing about the playing of Hungarian musicians: «The other Hungarian fiddlers, though they be 100 in number, all play together with the first descant voice or note in the same tone, one octave lower, which is called the contra). It goes on to say that generally ea large or small bag-pipe, with a sustained drone, will be used, providing no mean support for the fiddlers so that they do not tire so soon). Further-more, it appears that these Hungarian violinists «had a distinctive manner of playing, using a very long stroke and a curious jerking movement». And so on. The present programme has been taken from three principal sources: the Vietoris Codex, the Kajoni Codex, and the Leut-schau Virginal Book. The Virginal Book of Leutschau, written in organ tablature between 1660 and 1670, represents «the first example of stylistically, melodically, and technically developed and independ-ent keyboard music) in old Hungary (Slovakia) (Szabolcsi). The pieces are arrangements for keyboard instruments of secular songs and dance airs. The Kajoni Codex, also in organ tablature, was compi-led between 1634 and 1671 by the Tran-sylvanian Franciscan Superior and organist Janos Kajoni. It is principally comprised of folk dance melodies. The chief source of this programme, however, is the Vieto-ris Codex which was compiled around 1680 in the Hungarian-Slovakian-Ukrainian border region of Upper Hungary. This Codex, at one time in the possession of the Hungarian family of Vietoris, is likewise written in tablature notation, and contains two part «international) dances (corantos, sarabandes, etc.), Hungarian, Czech, Polish and Slovakian folk dances
> denoted by the Greek word for dance, «chorea», arrangements of Hungarian and Slovakian secular songs, Hungarian and Latin spiritual songs, and a large number of Slovakian sacred songs. Several two part pieces for trumpets, «pro Clarinis» , and well known hymns arranged for one or two trumpets are also found in the collec-tion. The Slovakian and Latin church songs are ordered in accordance with the ecclesiastical year, thus giving us the complete musical provision for an entire year, a compendium for a church or court organist to draw upon in the fulfilment of the musical demands of court and church as well as all kinds of other social occa-sions. With the exception of the pieces for trumpets and a few pieces for the key-board, only the upper and lower parts of all the pieces in the book are notated. Ac-cording to requirement and ability this lean framework was filled in more or less elaborately with various instruments, en-riched with additional parts.


----------



## millionrainbows

This guy reminds me of Jack White. Listen at :53 to the close-interval sustained notes, rather like a harp. Tony McManus uses this technique in much Celtic music, in a DADGAD tuning.






This "Jacaras" music is important, as the prototype of the Spanish guitar tradition. Get thisCD:










I know this is not pre-1600, but it shows the early origins of the guitar. Sorry...


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## millionrainbows

We can thus see the sordid, sensual "folk" origins of guitar music: PARTAAAY!!


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## tortkis

There are not so many Polish early music composers I could find, but I liked what I heard very much. I feel stength and underlying sadness which seems different from other regions, but I didn't know if and how much it has distinctive style. I found this in the liner notes for an album of Bazylika's music.

_"The Polish Renaissance is a very interesting and unique place on the map of contemporary Europe, bleeding in religious wars. The widespread mutual hatred of Catholics and Protestants resulted in the artificial division of the language of art: a complicated and elaborate Catholic and programmatically simplified Protestant. Polish music of this time is free from the necessity of applying such divisions. Composers such as Wacław of Szamotuły or Cyprian Bazylik were able to synthesize the experience of the beauty of the traditional Catholic motet and Protestant clarity of the form with the use of the Polish language at the forefront."_
https://multikultiproject.bandcamp....-owieczego-pie-ni-cypriana-bazylika-1535-1600

Pieśni Cypriana Bazylika (1535 - 1600): Dobrotliwość Pańska - Bornus Consort














Marcin Leopolita (1537-ca.1584): Missa Paschalis - Collegium Vocale














Wacław Z. Szamotuł (c.1520-c.1560): Nunc scio vere - Rutgers Collegium Musicum


----------



## Mandryka

tortkis said:


> There are not so many Polish early music composers I could find]


Jacek Urbaniak leads a group of musicians called Ars Nova, which has released some Polish early music. There is, for example, an attractive compilation CD called _Bogurodzica_.

Try also _The Glogauer Liederbuch_, there's a good recording with Sabine Lutzenberger, and another one that Clemencic made.

Of course the borders were porous. Matthaeus Waissel, for example, a German, worked for years in Łankiejmy. There's a good recording of some of his music by Jacob Hereingman called _Black Cow_ -- Heringman includes some music on that CD by a Hungarian, Balentin Bakfark, who's one of my favourite composers.

There's also a recording of instrumental music by Michel Gondko called _If My Lute Could Speak_. The booklet notes are quite interesting on Polish music



> Although Gallus Anonimus' The Chronicles (or at least its first part, written in 1112) provides evidence that the lute was an instrument popular and in common use in Poland already during the reign of King Bolesław Chrobry, the Polish visual arts which survived to our times include the pictures of lute from the early 15th century. Wall paintings in the Saint Trinity church at the Lublin Castle, founded by King Władysław Jagiello in 1418, a stained glass window in the Friars Dominicans' Church in Cracow (1430-1440), the triptych of the Holy Trinity in the Wawel; Cathedral produced in 1467, Great Altar in the St. Mary's Church in Cracow by Veit Stoss in 1477-1489, all contain show musicians playing lutes. During the reigns of kings Zygmunt Stary and Zygmunt August, lute's position in the Polish musical culture strengthened yet further, as it was then called "the queen of instruments". It was not by chance that the richly decorated coffin of King Zygmunt August produced in 1573, which still remains in the crypts of the Wawel cathedral, contained the picture of lute on a prominent position. Composers of those times used that instrument keenly. Its sweet and delicate sound soothe Kings and mighty of that world. The instrument was handy enough to be taken to make a garden walk even more pleasant. Customs from the royal court were swiftly imitated and spread widely in the courts of aristocracy and the gentry. It was so easy to reach for the lute and express all shades of mood, and one's feelings and emotions. It was an instrument perfectly fit to produce such latest contemporary developments of the composers' techniques as a polyphonic facture treatment which, in Bakfark's compositions, was coming to six voices, and to evolve rich and beautiful harmony. Brilliant and virtuoso ornamentation was a particular embellishment to the lute instrument to play a lighter, more entertaining repertoire. The instrument characteristic sound goes very well with a human voice, with singing. Dances formed quite an extrinsic and abundant part of the lute music repertoire. Polish lute dances were acclaimed and esteemed far beyond the borders of the Polish Kingdom.
> 
> The 16th century lute tablatures survived to our times in the from of manuscripts or their longhand copies. Only the Valentin Bakfark's Tablature, published in print in 1565, is continuously acclaimed in Poland. Fortunately, a considerable number of compositions by the Polish musicians were included in tablatures scribbled or printed in those years far beyond the Polish borders.
> 
> While compiling music for this particular recording, we have consulted vast number of resources, including the organ tablatures. The two Francesco Maffon's songs, which have been originally printed for the four-voice vocal ensemble, we applied the technique widely-used by the lute-players: the intabulation, or the transfer from the score notation. The instruments' peculiarities required application of numerous diminutions, a common practice by the 16tth century lute players anyway. The intabulation has been performed for the two lute instruments. The solo compositions and all arrangements for the then-contemporary playing elements of free interpretation of from and ornamentation. Application of such means of artistic expression brings closer the musical image of this recording to the Renaissance times. The record's title is an incipit of Jan Kochanowski's popular epigram on Bakfark.
> 
> Valentin Bakfark (1506-1576) - lute player and composer of Hungarian origin. Educated at the court of Transylvanian governor Jan Zapolya. Between 1549 and 1566 he was the court musican at the King Sigismundus Augustus's court, and there he was knighted. He personally supervised the printing of his tablature Harmoniarum musicarum in usum testudinis factarum, tomus primus, in Cracow, in 1565. That volume contains a collection of musical compositions dedicated to the King. The volume was printed in the famous printing works of Lazarus Andrysowic. The volume is the only in Poland, and known to these days, printed lute tablature. Bakfark's compositions are masterly and consequent in his development of three- to six-voice polyphony. Jan Kochanowski, in his epigram On Bakfark, wrote:
> 
> "If lute could speak
> Thus she would say:
> Leave me for Bakfark
> Ye all on bagpipes play!"
> 
> Diomedes Cato (before 1570-after 1607) Italian lute player, singer and composer; from his early childhood residing in Poland at the royal court of King Sigismundus III Vasa and at the mansion court of Stanisław Kostka, Malbork economic governor and deputy treasurer of the Prussian Lands. Cato's compositions, abundant in number, included polyphonic chants, a madrigal - Tirsi morir volea, several preludes, fantasias, passamezzi, galiards, a barriera favorito and dances for solo lute, as well as the organ compositions and numerous intabulations.
> 
> Wojciech Długoraj called also Wojtaszek (around 1557-after 1619), a lute player and composer - he was brought up and educated at Samuel Zborowski's court, where he stayed until 1579. Between 1583-1586 he was the court lute player for King Stefan Batory. For a time he was also a friar at the St. Bernard's convent in Kraków. He spent the last years of his life abroad. He left the longhand-written tablature, the so-called Długoraj's Tablature, written in the German system; the book contains almost five hundred and fifty compositions were also included by J. B. Bésard in his tablature: Thesaurus Harmonicus, and one Długoraj's Polish dance was included in the longhand form, published in Cologne in 1603.
> 
> Franciszek Maffon (2nd half of 16th century): a composer, and a son of a Kraków bourgeois, Piotr Maffon, a descendant of Brescia. He was an organist at the Polish Kings: Stefan Batory and Sigismundus III Vasa's courts. The three pieces recorder on our CD are all we know of his compositions.
> 
> Mikołaj z Krakowa (Nicolas of Cracow). Living in the first half of 16th century, a Polish organist and composer, native of Cracow and working there. No closer details on his life survived to our times. He was a versatile composer, who produced music in mere instrumental forms, but was composed also both ecclesiastical and lay music. Mikołaj's compositions survived included in the Tablature of the Holy Spirit' cloister in Kraków. He was the oldest composer of dances known in Poland by his name.
> 
> Jakub Reys Polak (around 1540-around 1605) - a Polish musician, lute player and composer. He spent most of his career in France, where he arrived in 1574. From 1588 onwards he was a court lute player for Henry III, King of France, and later, for King Henry IV. It was due to his origins that he was given the nickname of "the Pole". He was known and admired for his particular virtuosity in playing, for novelties in the technique instrumental, deep and beautiful sound of his instruments and improvising skills. His pieces were included in as many as five popular volumes printed and published in 1603 to 1617, and were also included in the longhand - copied lute tablatures. He composed fantasies, preludes, branles, courantes, galiards, voltes, a sarabande and a ballet.


----------



## tortkis

Thank you, I'll check out those recordings. Das Glogauer Liederbuch sounds good. I have Bogurodzica.


----------



## tortkis

Taggart said:


> O rare Jordi Savall. An excellent bag of delights. This follows on from his exploration of the folia. A selection of ostinato patterns - ruggiero, passacaglia, passamezzo (modernao and antico), romanesco, chaconne, canarios and some English grounds. Although the patterns are the same, the various composers get a lot out of them and the instrumental textures are excellent. What was surprising was how close the romanesca (Recercada VII) by Ortiz came to Greensleeves. Equally, the variations on Greensleeves at the end showed the possibilities of the ground. We found the earlier pieces preferable to the later examples by Purcell. Savall included a (fast) version of Pachelbel's canon and gigue as an example of a later chaconne. A delightful set of tunes performed in great style.


This is indeed so delightful that I listened to the album repeatedly today. As a minimalism fan, I enjoyed it a lot. Merula's fast and crisp Ruggiero is fascinating. I heard Hogwood's fast Canon and Gigue but Savall is even faster.


----------



## Taggart

Magical. A lovely collection of dance music.This is a souvenir from a Jordi Savall concert at the York Early Music festival in 2014.

Le Manuscrit du Roi in the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris is also known as the Chansonnier du Roi. It contains eight "Estampie Real"; another estampie and two additional dances are located elsewhere in the volume. Jordi Savall and Hespèrion XXI utilise the dances in the Chansonnier du Roi as the basis of an entire program, adding four pieces from vocal works related to this genre.

Savall's interpretation is informed by traditional Arabic music and utilises tasteful percussion. The dances are played at an even-keel tempo, and some pieces are played in a meditative, not dance-like vein. It's not a foot-stompin' good time like some of David Miunrow's work, but Savall's take on the estampie adds a distinctive perspective to the dialogue of what medieval dance music was all about.


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## tortkis

I am looking forward to La Reverdie's new release, Francesco Landini: L'Occhio del Cor, on Arcana.


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## Mandryka

tortkis said:


> I am looking forward to La Reverdie's new release, Francesco Landini: L'Occhio del Cor, on Arcana.


This new recording involves Christophe Deslignes, who I think is an interesting musician. He's a member of Mala Punica. Deslignes has already made a Landini recording in fact, here, I like it very much


----------



## Dorsetmike

Orlando Lassus, 'Aurora Lucis Rutilat', Choir of Clare College Cambridge


----------



## Mandryka

tortkis said:


> I am looking forward to La Reverdie's new release, Francesco Landini: L'Occhio del Cor, on Arcana.


It is one of the best things Reverdie have recorded I think. And the sound quality is excellent too. I like many things from Reverdie but I'm far from being an _inconditionnel_, as they say in French (can't think of the English), so I was very pleased to find myself relishing this one so much.


----------



## Dorsetmike

Lassus, ' missa bell amfitrit altera sanctus'; Choir of Christchurch Cathedral, Oxford






Lassus, ' missa bell amfitrit altera Kyrie Choir of Christchurch Cathedral, Oxford






Lassus, ' missa bell amfitrit altera Agnus Dei; Choir of Christchurch Cathedral, Oxford


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## Mandryka

tortkis said:


> Thank you, I'll check out those recordings. Das Glogauer Liederbuch sounds good. I have Bogurodzica.


This was released a few weeks ago, rather interesting I think











> For the musicians associated with the Grzegorz Gerwazy Gorczycki Sarmatian Choir the 450 anniversary of the conclusion of the Act of the Union of Lublin became a good opportunity for a sui generis reconstruction of solemn sacred music from that time.
> 
> Based on extremely interesting monuments of Polish music of the "Golden Age," the programme of the album is a kind of "fantasy" on the coverage accompanying the solemn sum that had to be celebrated after such an important event for the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Wide historical and musical knowledge of the artists, knowledge of the liturgy, customs, and performance style of the early Polish music makes this experiment, carried out under the artistic direction of Robert Pozarski in cooperation with the Schola Gregoriana Silesiensis, Trombastic ensemble, and well-known soloists, very credible and will bring a lot of satisfaction to all music lovers interested in the Old Polish culture.


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## Jacck

Codex Faenza Instrumental Music Of The Early 15th c.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Love this recording and the others of Lassus with Herreweghe conducting.


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## Jacck

The Triumph of Maximilian I: Music of Isaac, Hofhaimer and Senfl (15th / 16th Centuries)




very beautiful


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## Jacck

Gothien - Písně a tance středověké (medieval songs and dances)


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## Jacck

Krless - Hudci Pisni
Early medieval European music made by Czech Medieval Crossover group Krless


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## Jacck

Stary Olsa


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## Mandryka

I just bought their CD on the strength of it, and indeed because the music is very rare


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## Mandryka

Meantone Byrd played with no compromises -- worth hearing.


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## Ras

*Venetian - 17th Century*

This is early Baroque rather than stricly Renaissance. *A recording by Musica Fiata from 1991 on DHM which I think is becoming a favorite of mine. Apparently it is rather obscure Italian composers from the early Baroque era (17th Century): Neri, Buonamente, Valentini, Bertali*. I had never heard about Musica Fiata before, but there is plenty to listen to on www.spotify.com


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## Mandryka

I thought this was all by Costanzo Festa, but it seems not.


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## Gallus

Been playing this motet from Lassus on repeat the past week. Unutterably beautiful and expressive harmonies. Bumped Lassus up significantly in my ranking of the Old Masters, I need to explore him further!






So annoyed Hilliard only recorded a couple of his motets...


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Gallus said:


> Been playing this motet from Lassus on repeat the past week. Unutterably beautiful and expressive harmonies. Bumped Lassus up significantly in my ranking of the Old Masters, I need to explore him further!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So annoyed Hilliard only recorded a couple of his motets...


Try these guys!


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## Dirge

Taggart said:


> The St Emmeram Codex is so called because it was preserved in the celebrated library of the Benedictine monastery of St Emmeram in Regensburg. It was the private music collection of Hermann Pötzlinger, who worked briefly as the master of their school
> 
> Stimmwerck specialise in the music of little known composers of the German-speaking world so this is a natural for them. All we know of Peter Schweikl is that he was a canon at the Alte Kapelle in Regensburg. The dean Rudolf Volkhardt von Häringen had been a professor of theology at the University of Vienna when Pötzlinger was a student there. There is a detailed review and discussion of the CD here - http://www.sonusantiqva.org/i/S/Stimmwerck/2008StEmmeramCodex.html


«The St Emmeram Codex»
:: Stimmwerck, Léon Berben _organ_ [Aeolus '07]

Stimmwerck (plus a guest singer or two or three when needed) sings twenty works drawn from the motley collection of 255 late Mediæval and very early Renaissance works (mainly from France, Germany, and England) known as the St Emmeram Codex. The three most famous works here-Power's _Anima mea liquefacta_, Dunstaple's _Quam pulchra es_, and Dufay's _Supremum est mortalibus_-are great favorites of mine and couldn't be interpreted, sung, and presented any better to my ears. The less familiar works are variously less interesting and engaging to me (even after many years of sporadic listening), but they're treated no less well by Stimmwerck. Vaillant's _Ad honorem/Par maintes foys_ (with its birdsong) and Lantins' _Tota pulchra es_ are perhaps my favorites of these less familiar works.

Of all my favorite early music groups, Stimmwerck is the most chaste/austere in manner, immaculate in execution, judicious in balance, and plain of tone-one big yawn waiting to happen-yet the singing is so intensely earnest, committed, and focused that I get sucked into the group's vortex of would-be boredom nonetheless. Even popular secular works such as Isaac's "Innsbruch, ich muß dich lassen" (on another album) get this sort of treatment, if to a slightly lesser degree, from the group: 



 (I include this video because I've never come across any full streams or videos of tracks from the _St Emmeram_ album.)

The album also includes seven works from the Buxheim Organ Book that managed to find their way into the Codex, all played by Léon Berben on the Gothic organ in the St Andreas Church in Soest-Ostönnen, Germany, one of the oldest preserved organs in the world (c. 1425-31). Despite the historical intrigue of all that, none of the organ works strike a chord with me.


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## tarek

I love John Dowland's song


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## Dirge

*William BYRD: Mass for five voices* (SATTB) (publ. 1594-95)
:: Hillier/The Hilliard Ensemble [EMI '83]
http://www.classicalm.com/en/compos...3-4--5-voices-Ave-verum-The-Hilliard-Ensemble (tracks 11-15)

The Hilliard Ensemble gives as intensely earnest and heartfelt a performance of the Mass for five voices as I ever expect to hear. The pace is slow and focus & concentration is unflagging, allowing the group to wring every drop of expression out of the text/music while sustaining tension and remaining true to form. One voice per part promotes clarity, and the distinctive but complementary individual voices provide for a varied, richly textured sonority-quite different from the vocal uniformity and homogeneous blend of the Tallis Scholars. The overall tenor/tone of the performance is a bit plaintive, but the ensemble is ever-responsive to the changing mood and character of the music, and the singing is nicely varied in context. All in all, this recording from the Hilliard Ensemble's golden era-essentially the whole of the 1980s, while Paul Hillier was still at the helm-strikes me as one of the group's finest offerings.


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## Mandryka

How many voices do you need for the 5 voice mass? There were 4 Hilliard singers.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> How many voices do you need for the *5 voice mass*? There were 4 Hilliard singers.


The singers here are:

Gillian Fisher (soprano), David James (counter-tenor), Paul Elliott (tenor), Leigh Nixon (tenor), Paul Hillier (baritone)


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## Dirge

*Thomas TALLIS: Lamentations of Jeremiah I & II* (ATTBB) (1560s)
:: The Deller Consort [Vanguard "The Bach Guild" '55]





This work (two works, really, as it's in two parts) is essentially a lesson, a story, set to music, and it requires a performance of great rhetorical eloquence and storytelling ability to fully put it across. No group better fits that bill than the pioneering old Deller Consort, the barbershop quintet of early music specialists. The recorded sound is dry, coarse, brittle, and ill-balanced within an intimate cave-like acoustic, and the members' voices are hardly soothing balms to the ear-Alfred Deller's unique countertenor, in particular, is not to everyone's taste-but each of them sing with a plaintive expressive intensity and an almost tremulous immediacy that makes you think that they're reporting live and first-hand from Jerusalem itself. Not for every listener, or even most listeners.


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## Mandryka

Dirge said:


> *Thomas TALLIS: Lamentations of Jeremiah I & II* (ATTBB) (1560s)
> :: The Deller Consort [Vanguard "The Bach Guild" '55]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This work (two works, really, as it's in two parts) is essentially a lesson, a story, set to music, and it requires a performance of great rhetorical eloquence and storytelling ability to fully put it across. No group better fits that bill than the pioneering old Deller Consort, the barbershop quintet of early music specialists. The recorded sound is dry, coarse, brittle, and ill-balanced within an intimate cave-like acoustic, and the members' voices are hardly soothing balms to the ear-Alfred Deller's unique countertenor, in particular, is not to everyone's taste-but each of them sing with a plaintive expressive intensity and an almost tremulous immediacy that makes you think that they're reporting live and first-hand from Jerusalem itself. Not for every listener, or even most listeners.


I agree it's very good. I don't know who has the high voice, but he is exceptional.


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## Dirge

Mandryka said:


> I agree it's very good. I don't know who has the high voice, but he is exceptional.


The high voice is Alfred Deller himself.


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## Mandryka

Dirge said:


> The high voice is Alfred Deller himself.


Gosh, I wondered that obviously but wasn't sure.


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## Ingélou

Dirge said:


> *Thomas TALLIS: Lamentations of Jeremiah I & II* (ATTBB) (1560s)
> :: The Deller Consort [Vanguard "The Bach Guild" '55]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This work (two works, really, as it's in two parts) is essentially a lesson, a story, set to music, and it requires a performance of great rhetorical eloquence and storytelling ability to fully put it across. No group better fits that bill than the pioneering old Deller Consort, the barbershop quintet of early music specialists. The recorded sound is dry, coarse, brittle, and ill-balanced within an intimate cave-like acoustic, and the members' voices are hardly soothing balms to the ear-*Alfred Deller's unique countertenor, in particular, is not to everyone's taste*-but each of them sing with a plaintive expressive intensity and an almost tremulous immediacy that makes you think that they're reporting live and first-hand from Jerusalem itself. Not for every listener, or even most listeners.


Great post. :tiphat:
I only discovered Alfred Deller last year, but he is very much to my taste.


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## jegreenwood

When I began building my (somewhat modest) Early Music collection, I found a twofer of the King's College Choir singing Masses and other works by Byrd and Taverner. I don't think I'd played it in decades, and when I played it this morning, I had to turn it off and put on the Hilliard Ensemble instead (I also have Stile Antico performing some of the same works. Oddly I don't have any recordings of The Tallis Scholars performing Byrd or Taverner.) Other favorites?


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## Dirge

Giovanni Pierluigi da PALESTRINA: *Missa Papae Marcelli · Stabat Mater · Alma Redemptoris Mater · Peccantem me quotidie*
:: Turner/Pro Cantione Antiqua [ASV '78] _not to be confused with the 1990 Brown/Pro Cantione Antiqua recordings of the same works_





I'm not really a Palestrina kind of guy, finding most of what I've heard of his vast output to be rather generalized and anonymous in character (however skillfully constructed and historically important the music may be), but PCA makes the best of it by singing more personally and expressively than other groups, and doing so in an earnest and sincere way that comes across as prayerful and devout in context … helped by the slightly earthy and plaintive tone of the singers' voices. From a 21st-century HIP perspective, the style of singing will seem somewhat dated/old-fashioned, not entirely removed from that of the old Deller Consort, but that's what makes these performances work for me. PCA uses one voice per part, with countertenors on top-no women or boys here-and the voices are distinctive and contrasting yet complementary (rather than uniform and blended/homogenized in the manner of the Tallis Scholars). Whether this is how these works were performed in Palestrina's day, I haven't the foggiest, but the approach yields uncommon lucidity and textural definition throughout, including in the great unfolding of "Amen"s at the end of both the Gloria and the Credo of the Mass.

The recording is a degree closer, drier, and less blended than usual for this type of music, which suits/complements the performances, but it's still reasonably airy and atmospheric, and vocal balances are beautifully judged. Indeed, the layering and interweaving of voices, the sonic tapestry as it were, is presented more clearly and vividly than in any other recording that I've heard. On the other hand, it doesn't have anything like the sense of space and ethereal atmosphere of the famous 1980 Tallis Scholars recording of _Missa Papae Marcelli_, with its infinite decay and overtones-it's a different listening experience entirely.


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## SanAntone

Dirge said:


> Giovanni Pierluigi da PALESTRINA: *Missa Papae Marcelli · Stabat Mater · Alma Redemptoris Mater · Peccantem me quotidie*
> :: Turner/Pro Cantione Antiqua [ASV '78] _not to be confused with the 1990 Brown/Pro Cantione Antiqua recordings of the same works_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not really a Palestrina kind of guy, finding most of what I've heard of his vast output to be rather generalized and anonymous in character (however skillfully constructed and historically important the music may be), but PCA makes the best of it by singing more personally and expressively than other groups, and doing so in an earnest and sincere way that comes across as prayerful and devout in context … helped by the slightly earthy and plaintive tone of the singers' voices. From a 21st-century HIP perspective, the style of singing will seem somewhat dated/old-fashioned, not entirely removed from that of the old Deller Consort, but that's what makes these performances work for me. PCA uses one voice per part, with countertenors on top-no women or boys here-and the voices are distinctive and contrasting yet complementary (rather than uniform and blended/homogenized in the manner of the Tallis Scholars). Whether this is how these works were performed in Palestrina's day, I haven't the foggiest, but the approach yields uncommon lucidity and textural definition throughout, including in the great unfolding of "Amen"s at the end of both the Gloria and the Credo of the Mass.
> 
> The recording is a degree closer, drier, and less blended than usual for this type of music, which suits/complements the performances, but it's still reasonably airy and atmospheric, and vocal balances are beautifully judged. Indeed, the layering and interweaving of voices, the sonic tapestry as it were, is presented more clearly and vividly than in any other recording that I've heard. On the other hand, it doesn't have anything like the sense of space and ethereal atmosphere of the famous 1980 Tallis Scholars recording of _Missa Papae Marcelli_, with its infinite decay and overtones-it's a different listening experience entirely.


I am a big fan of the Pro Musica Antiqua under either Mark Brown (founding conductor) or Bruno Turner (musicologist/conductor), and think their Palestrina recordings are excellent. I like OVPP groups although the Papal choir during Palestrina's time probably had between 8-12 singers, but nothing like the large choral groups that sometimes sing this music - much to my chagrin.

I am happy to have found this thread, with a little help, and will enjoy going back and reading the earlier posts and making a few myself.


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## Comity

The Hilliard Ensemble - Joasquin Desprez - Motets & Chansons


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## Ingélou

Just found this - how lovely! (Dunstable, Veni Creator Spiritus).


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## Ingélou

Grubbing about for names in the medieval/renaissance period - for I'm pretty ignorant - I came across *Oswald von Wolkenstein*. The Wiki article is an amazing read, about Oswald's eye that never developed, his arrests and revenges over money matters, his experiences in the army sent against the Hussites, and his constant bid to have monasteries copy out his songs.
I particularly like the comment that he had three interests - *travel*, *God* and *sex*. Very much a man after my own heart! 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_von_Wolkenstein

I am enjoying this YouTube video - his 'Cosmopolitan Songs'.


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## cheregi

Ingélou said:


> Grubbing about for names in the medieval/renaissance period - for I'm pretty ignorant - I came across *Oswald von Wolkenstein*. The Wiki article is an amazing read, about Oswald's eye that never developed, his arrests and revenges over money matters, his experiences in the army sent against the Hussites, and his constant bid to have monasteries copy out his songs.
> I particularly like the comment that he had three interests - *travel*, *God* and *sex*. Very much a man after my own heart!


Reading this man's wikipedia page was wildly enjoyable. I love these kinds of odd little 'adventurers' who really just caused problems for everyone.


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## Ingélou

Lovely viol music - Orlando Gibbons, 3 Fantasias - to start the week. 
Best wishes to all on Talk Classical. :tiphat:


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## Ingélou

It's the first day of the English Third Lockdown - I slept badly because my digestive lurgi has resurfaced - and am feeling generally like 'carp'. 
Just the day for a bit of 'Semper dolens' Dowland, and I found this lovely item on YouTube:






John Dowland - Seaven Teares: Music of John Dowland (The King's Noyse/David Douglass; Paul O'Dette)

Paul O'Dette - the name rings a bell as we have him on several early music cds that we own.
And here's something more about him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_O'Dette#Discography


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## cheregi

I've been on a Gesualdo kick lately - after spending a long time convinced that his contemporary reputation is mostly because people like a macabre story, and other madrigalists like Marenzio were much better, I am coming around to the idea that he really did sum up and extend in more interesting directions the madrigal genre's tendencies towards extreme dissonance, and the 'irrationality' of his writing is really compelling. Part of what opened my eyes was hearing some interesting approaches to performance. Here's three performances of 'Io tacero, ma nel silenzio mio,' one of my favorites:






I've never really enjoyed the La Venexiana / Compagnia del Madrigale school of madrigal singing - they seem to smother everything in the exact same kind of emotional resonance, so everything sounds kind of melodramatic but in a ho-hum way.






Delitiae Musicae take the melodrama to a fever pitch, but I like their approach a lot more because they seem actually sensitive to changing textual needs, and therefore offer more convincing emotive peaks and valleys. Also it's nice to hear the crunchy dissonances so relentlessly drawn out.






Kassiopeia Quintet, however, blows the other two options out of the water, for me. They sing Gesualdo with a kind of lightness, fleet-footedness, that I wouldn't have thought possible, emphasizing horizontal line coherence over verticality as is appropriate for this music, and in their hands these madrigals sound like perfect little nuggets of mysterious power which are almost playful even as they don't skimp on genuine emotive affect. I hope to hear more in this performance style!


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## SanAntone

New recording from *New York Polyphony*:

_And the Sun Darkened_ (March 2021)

View attachment 152747


Champions of rare and rediscovered works of antiquity, New York Polyphony presents the world premiere recording of Loyset Compère's Officium de Cruce, an elaborate, multi-movement motet cycle that rivals the masterpieces of Franco-Flemish contemporaries Pierre de la Rue and Josquin des Prez, both of whom also appear on the album. Additional works include Andrew Smith's Salme 55 , Adrian Willaert's Pater noster- Ave Maria, and Cyrillus Kreek's Taaveti laul 22.

Officium de Cruce is an anomaly for its time - a long-form dramatic work likely intended for private devotional use. Composed for Galeazzo Maria Sforza, Duke of Milan from 1466 until his assassination a decade later, it depicts the events of the crucifixion of Jesus. The compositional techniques Compère employed, as well as the work's overall expressive dimension, foreshadowed the innovations of Adrian Willaert and Nicolas Gombert a generation later. "The dramatic form of Officium de Cruce is, in a sense, a prototype for the madrigal cycles that began to appear in the late 16th century," explains New York Polyphony countertenor Geoffrey Williams. "It has an expressive arc that is deeply affecting and innovative for composers of Compère's generation."


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## cheregi

SanAntone said:


> New recording from *New York Polyphony*:
> 
> _And the Sun Darkened_ (March 2021)


Even though this is pretty far from the Renaissance performance style I typically gravitate towards, I'm really enjoying this music and I find it exceptionally beautiful. And the Officium de Cruce - what a wonderful 'discovery'!


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## SanAntone

*Music from the island monastery*








> Ensemble: Ordo Virtutum
> Album: Insula Felix
> 
> Insula felix, "augia felix", fortunate island ~ fruitful island. So Walahried Strabo sings in the ninth century in one of his most famous poems, the Metnum Saphicum, longing for his beloved island monastery from afar, while he stays in Fulda for his education, and Reichenau, together with St. Gallen, was truly a stronghold of science and art, a cradle of European culture in the Lake of Constance. In both places chant, poetry and illuminations flourished. In contrast to the Abbey of St. Gall, however, the manuscript treasures, which had in the past been guarded by Reginbert, the famous monastery librarian, were scattered to the four winds. So it is research in recent years which has achieved for the first time an approximate reconstruction of the musical culture of the island monastery. This recording shows for the fist time the at temp to devise a programme solely from music of the Reichenau monastery or music most closely connected with it. To this end many manuscrips have been consulted and newly transcribed. - Prof. Dr. Stefan Johannes Morent


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## ArtMusic

There is a serenity about these early vocal works, especially when listened to during early hours of Sunday,
_Der Schwanengesang (Opus Ultimum)_ by *Heinrich Schütz* (1585 - 1672).


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## SanAntone

Eustache Du Caurroy (1549 - 1609). XXIII Fantasies






*From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*



> François-Eustache du Caurroy (baptised February 4, 1549 - August 7, 1609) was a French composer of the late Renaissance. He was a prominent composer of both secular and sacred music at the end of the Renaissance, including musique mesurée, and he was also influential on the foundation of the French school of organ music as exemplified in the work of Jean Titelouze.
> 
> Du Caurroy was a late practitioner of the style of musique mesurée, the musical method of setting French verse (vers mesurés) in long and short syllables, to long and short note values, in a homophonic texture, as pioneered by Claude Le Jeune under the influence of Jean-Antoine de Baïf and his Académie de musique et de poésie. Many of Du Caurroy's chansons written in this style were not published until 1609, long after the disbanding of the Académie, and they contrast significantly with his otherwise more conservative musical output. According to Du Caurroy, he was initially hostile to writing in the style, but was so moved by a performance of a composition of Le Jeune's, a pseaume mesuré sung by a hundred voices, that he wanted to attempt it himself.
> 
> Du Caurroy was primarily interested in counterpoint, and was widely read in the theoretical work of the time, including that of Gioseffe Zarlino, who provided the best available summation of the contrapuntal practice in the 16th century. His contrapuntal interest is best shown in his sacred music, of which the largest collection is the two volumes of motets, 53 in all, entitled Preces ecclesiasticae, published in Paris in 1609. They are from 3 to 7 voices.


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## architecture

SanAntone said:


> New recording from *New York Polyphony*:
> 
> _And the Sun Darkened_ (March 2021)
> 
> View attachment 152747


What a gorgeous album cover!


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## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> Eustache Du Caurroy (1549 - 1609). XXIII Fantasies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*


As far as I know the whole thing has never been recorded, Savall's is the biggest selection on record I think.


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## SanAntone

Albert De Rippe (1500 - 1551). Tabulature De Leut






* Fantasie XVIII
* O Passi Sparsi
* Gaillarde L'amirale; Gaillarde
* Verbum Iniquum
* Fantasie XXV
* Fantasie XXII
* Douce Mémoire
* Fantasie XVI
* On En Dira Ce Qu'on Voudra
* Fantasie XIII
* Fantasie I En Tabulature De Guyterne
* Fantasie II En Tabulature De Guyterne

- Hopkinson Smith, luth, guitare


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## mark07

Ingélou said:


> Try a bransle with the bran flakes. :tiphat:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darling Praetorius - how I love thee! :kiss:


one of the good music. Thanks for sharing this music.


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## mark07

Mandryka said:


> As far as I know the whole thing has never been recorded, Savall's is the biggest selection on record I think.


Yes, I also think Savall's is the biggest selection on record.


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## mark07

Early music is a broad musical era for the beginning of Western classical music.


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## SanAntone

Musica di festa alla corte dei Visconti






Credits and note from YouTube channel owner:



> Ensemble: Pierre Hamon, Alla Francesca, Carlo Rizzo
> Album: Istanpitta (Musiques De Fête À La Cour Des Visconti)
> Video: Offiziolo Visconti by Giovannino De Grassi (XV cent.)
> http://www.facebook.com/musicamedievale
> •
> Pierre Hamon imagines these famous Italian melodies from the XIV cent. played at the court of the Visconti, an important Lombard family of the same period. In the video I used images taken from the Offiziolo Visconti of Giangaleazzo Visconti illustrated by Giovannino De Grassi, painter and illuminator present at his court.
> •
> 1 Salterello
> 2 Isabella
> 3 Salterello (Prélude)
> 4 Salterello
> 5 Tre Fontane
> 6 Non Formo Christi
> 7 Principio Di Virtù (Prélude)
> 8 Principio Di Virtù (Istanpitta)
> 9 In Pro
> 10 Saltarello (Tradizionale)
> 11 Saltarello
> 12 Lamento Di Tristano (Prélude)
> 13 Lamento Di Tristano
> 14 Rotta
> •
> Direction, Bagpipes, Recorder, Tambura - Pierre Hamon
> Tambourine, Vocals - Carlo Rizzo
> Cittern - Michaël Grébil
> Gothic Harp - Angélique Mauillon
> Psaltery - Begoña Olavide
> Recorder - Benoït Toïgo
> Vielle - Birgit Goris, Lucas Guimaraes-Peres


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> Try a bransle with the bran flakes. :tiphat:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darling Praetorius - how I love thee! :kiss:


Whenever I see the word brasnle I always think of the French verb _se branler._


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## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> Whenever I see the word brasnle I always think of the French verb _se branler._


:lol: ..........................


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## Ingélou

John Bull: In Nomine - 





Came across this on YouTube today, with the following explanation below the video:

*'Michael Maxwell Steer plays one of the most remarkable musical experiments of the 16thC, recorded live at a concert in Handel House, London on 5 July 2007. This compositional tour de force by John Bull (1562-1628 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bul...)) compares with Tallis's Felix Namque 



... in its extended use of a plainsong cantus firmus. However Bull does something which was unique at the time by making every third bar 3 beats within an otherwise 4 beat piece. This has has the effect of making a cycle of 11 beats. Nobody before Stravinsky ever experimented with irregular bars, certainly not in the 16thC. But it's not a stunt, it's also a wonderful piece. The piece comes from the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book.'*

I'm no good at musical theory & history so I can't vouch for this, but it is a lovely piece well worth listening to.


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## Ingélou

A fabulous listen:





Josquin Des Prez: Miserere mei Deus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miserere_(Josquin)


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## SanAntone

*machaut | marc mauillon | remede de fortune*

View attachment 155773




> *The Remede de Fortune*
> Machaut was an important creator of narrative poetry, and he was at the forefront of the development of the lyric formes fixes as both literary and musical genres. The intersection between narrative and lyric poetry, between word and song, can be seen in his early Remede de Fortune. This work draws on both love narratives such as the Roman de la Rose and Boethius's Consolation of Philosophy, which itself mixes narrative and lyric poetry.
> 
> For Machaut as well, writing about love often seems more important than the act of love itself, and this can be seen nowhere so well as in the Le remede de Fortune, not least because it includes seven interpolated songs, which serve to illustrate the lover's growth as lover, poet, and composer.


This is the only complete recording of this work, and Marc Mauillon gives a superb performance.


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## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> *machaut | marc mauillon | remede de fortune*
> 
> View attachment 155773
> 
> 
> This is the only complete recording of this work, and Marc Mauillon gives a superb performance.


Have you heard Heinz Holliger's song which is based in some way on the complainte from remède de fortune?


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## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> Have you heard Heinz Holliger's song which is based in some way on the complainte from remède de fortune?


Yes, if you are referring to the Complainte included with this excellent recording:

View attachment 155785


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## Ingélou

*Have with Yow to Walsingame* - William Byrd's variations on the air.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walsingham_(music)

According to Wiki, *'Musicologist Margaret Gynn described how Byrd had taken what was originally "a love-song of the road" and transformed it by giving it the "serious religious character of a pilgrimage". According to Bradley Brookshire, the variations form a sort of "covert speech" addressed to Catholic recusants in Elizabethan culture. He argues that it includes "musically encoded symbols of Catholic veneration and lament."'*

Which makes it extra dear to me, as a Catholic who's often visited lovely Walsingham - we lived in Norfolk for 29 years.

In about 1600 appeared this poem, A Lament for Our Lady's Shrine at Walsingham' - anonymously, but sometimes ascribed to St Philip Howard, Earl of Arundel. 
https://rcdow.org.uk/faith/news/a-lament-for-our-ladys-shrine-to-walsingham/










~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Byrd - Walsingham Variations - Leonhardt.






It's a gorgeous set of variations.


----------



## SanAntone

*Far Away Lands: The Medieval Sephardic Heritage*






Ensemble: Florata
Oud, Psaltery, Percussion, Harp, Voice - Tim Rayborn
Recorder - Suzanne Hirschman
Voice, Percussion, Fiddle, Hurdy Gurdy (Symphonie) - Alison Sabedoria


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Not so early, but I discovered organ music by Heinrich Scheidemann recently. He even has a Pavana Lacrymae that must be based on Dowlands pavan. At least Dowland is more famous than Scheidemann. Isn't that right organists? The music is early baroque with very little renaissance left, meaning modality. I decided to make arrangements of choral preludes where I play guitar and program the other voices with my music software. Already made one of Nun komm' der Heiden Heiland bwv 659 by Bach for organ & guitar. Maybe I'll get fancy with marimba or harp  Working on Scheidemanns "Ein feste burg ist unser Gott" and will look at some Buxtehude too.


----------



## Mandryka

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Not so early, but I discovered organ music by Heinrich Scheidemann recently. He even has a Pavana Lacrymae that must be based on Dowlands pavan. At least Dowland is more famous than Scheidemann. Isn't that right organists? The music is early baroque with very little renaissance left, meaning modality. I decided to make arrangements of choral preludes where I play guitar and program the other voices with my music software. Already made one of Nun komm' der Heiden Heiland bwv 659 by Bach for organ & guitar. Maybe I'll get fancy with marimba or harp  Working on Scheidemanns "Ein feste burg ist unser Gott" and will look at some Buxtehude too.


It may be worth looking at transcribing Scheidemann's harpsichord pieces, same for Buxtehude, who wrote some attractive suites for harpsichord. I can imagine that some of the organ music could sound good for duo of lute and harpsichord.

The Lachrimae pavan was a perennial pop tune and every man and his dog wrote music based on it.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Mandryka said:


> It may be worth looking at transcribing Scheidemann's harpsichord pieces, same for Buxtehude, who wrote some attractive suites for harpsichord. I can imagine that some of the organ music could sound good for duo of lute and harpsichord.
> 
> The Lachrimae pavan was a perennial pop tune and every man and his dog wrote music based on it.


I have played Buxtehude on solo guitar but don't play lute (tried once). The software sounds for lute are not so realistic. I will look at Scheidemann and transcribe some.


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## Ingélou

Currently featuring in Bulldog's Early Music/ 17th century Baroque game, this Greek Orthodox chant, "ek rizis agathis"', is utterly gorgeous:






(From below the video
*Kassia (810-between 843 and 867), a noble from the Byzantine, not only left us with exquisitely beautiful melodies from the 9th Century, but stood as an emancipated, free thinking, and extraordinarily gifted woman, legendary in the center of intellectual and artistic life in Constantinople.
*
She sounds gorgeous too - wish I could take a time-machine & a universal translator and spend a few days sitting in on her rehearsals.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another YouTube video of her work:






_*Kassia Byzantine hymns of the first female composer of the Occident*_


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## Ingélou

William Byrd - Mass for 3 voices:






It's beautiful. A comment beneath the video sums it up for me:
*'Such exquisite 3-part writing. Truly a model of economy of means, depth of expression, and simplicity. Bravo, Mr Byrd!'*


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## Allegro Con Brio

*Brumel - Missa et ecce terrae motus (Earthquake Mass)*

If I could only keep one Renaissance work on my desert island, I would be hard pressed but would probably choose this one. Just overwhelming.


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## hammeredklavier

Allegro Con Brio said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QIEA02J8Ms
> *Brumel - Missa et ecce terrae motus (Earthquake Mass)*
> If I could only keep one Renaissance work on my desert island, I would be hard pressed but would probably choose this one. Just overwhelming.


Interesting :devil: The kyrie at 3:30 sounds so "busy", as if to imitate the sound of an earthquake


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## Ingélou

Thanks, @hammeredklavier - it meant I had to google why it was called that really and - 
'Brumel's cantus firmus comes from an Easter antiphon: "Et ecce terrae motus est" or "And behold, there came a movement of the earth".'  

Lovely music - thanks for sharing, @Allegro Con Brio. :tiphat:


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## SanAntone

*matthaeus pipelare | paradise regained - masses | the sound and the fury*

View attachment 156233


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## SanAntone

Chansonnier du Roi






Ensemble: Hespèrion XXI & Jordi Savall
Album: Estampies & Danses Royales
Video: Manuscrit du roi XIII cent.

Danse I
Le Prime Estampie Royal
Estampie Ancienne I (d'apres: Kalenda Maya Raimbaut de Vaqueiras 1150-1207)
La Seconde Estampie Royal
La Tierche Estampie Roial
Chanson (d'apres: No puesc sofrir c'a la dolor Giraut de Borneill 1175-1220)
La Quarte Estampie Royal
La Quinte Estampie Real
Estampie Ancienne (d'apres: No m'agrad'iverns Raimbaut de Vaqueiras 1150-1207)
Danse II
La Sexte Estampie Real
La Septime Estampie Real
Planctus (d'apres: Pax! In nomini Domini! Marcabru 1100-1150?)
La Ultime Estampie Real
Danse Real


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## Ingélou

Wow - this is on Bulldog's current Early Music game, and I've been blown away.

Or maybe 'deeply shaken' is apter, as it's Antoine Brumel's 'Earthquake Mass'.

Utterly gorgeous.


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## SanAntone

*Murmur Mori *- _Concerto a Montorfano_






Mirko Volpe: guiterne, medieval hurdy gurdy, chant, frame drums
Silvia Kuro: chant, rope drum, bell stick, riqq
Alessandra Lazzarini: piccolo flute
Stefano Barcellari: tbilat, darbuka, riqq, tambourine
Matteo Brusa: frame drum, bells, cymbals



> Murmur Mori was born in 2015, from an idea by Mirko Volpe and Silvia Kuro, with the purpose of creating "new early music".
> 
> Taking inspiration from jester poetry of a popular nature, the project plunges its roots in the Middle Ages, when music was played for recreation, but was also a means of social criticism and had the fundamental role of knowledge propagator. Among the woods of the Italian Alps grows Murmur Mori's folk music.
> Info: http://murmurmori.com


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## Faramundo

So beautiful !


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## Faramundo

We will never praise enough Jordi Savall for saving whole pages of our continental culture with so much talent.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I'm trying to find something I posted a year or two ago...It's not in this thread, but very early polyphonic music by a very thorough French team that always research their repertoire before recording. They might actually be an international group of researchers. Can anybody help? Something like this, but with more bite!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Here's an amazing performance of motet no. 23 by Machaut <3


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## Dirge

Fairly resembling a modern-day Friar Tuck (minus Bible and broadsword), I sat beneath a convenient shade tree and washed down a couple of brats (smothered with sauerkraut and coarse-ground mustard, of course) and a tub of cheese curds with a beer or two or three while listening to a playlist of mostly brief and mostly Mediæval favorites, capped off by a staggering account of Janequin's very French and very Renaissance "Le chant des oyseaulx" …

Hermannus CONTRACTUS: _*Salve regina*_ (c. 1050)
:: Bénédictins de l'Abbaye Saint-Maurice-et-Saint-Maur, Clervaux (Luxembourg) [Philips] ~ 3 minutes




:: Hilliard Ensemble [Hyperion] ~ 3 minutes
http://www.classicalm.com/en/disk/6...-Music-from-Six-Centuries---Hilliard-Ensemble (track 1)

Godefroy de St VICTOIRE: _*Planctus ante nescia*_ (late 1100s)
:: Hilliard Ensemble [Hyperion] ~ 8½ minutes
http://www.classicalm.com/en/disk/6...-Music-from-Six-Centuries---Hilliard-Ensemble (track 2)

[anonymous]: *"Sumer is Icumen in"* (c. 1260)
:: Hilliard Ensemble [HM] ~ 2 minutes
http://www.classicalm.com/en/disk/6...---Medieval-english-songs---Hilliard-Ensemble (track 1)

Pope Innocent VI (Étienne AUBERT): _*Ave verum corpus*_ (<1362)
:: Bénédictins de l'Abbaye Saint-Maurice-et-Saint-Maur, Clervaux (Luxembourg) [Philips] ~ 2 minutes





John DUNSTAPLE: _*Veni sancte spiritus*_ (1416)
:: Hilliard Ensemble [EMI] ~ 6½ minutes
http://www.classicalm.com/en/composition/28275/Dunstable---Motets---The-Hilliard-Ensemble (track 1)

John DUNSTAPLE: _*Salve scema sanctitatis*_
:: Orlando Consort [HM] ~ 7 minutes
http://www.classicalm.com/en/collection/151 (track 8)

Leonel POWER: _*Anima mea liquefacta*_ (after 1425)
:: Stimmwerck [Aeolus] ~ 3½ minutes
https://play.idmp3s.com/stream/-urzhe:2Sc1rB

Guillaume DUFAY: _*Flos florum*_
:: Blue Heron [Blue Heron] ~ 4 minutes
http://www.classicalm.com/en/compos...ymns-Chansons-Sanctus-Papale---Scott-Metcalfe (track 7)

John DUNSTAPLE: _*Quam pulchra es*_ (c. 1430)
:: Stimmwerck [Aeolus] ~ 2½ minutes
https://play.idmp3s.com/stream/-urzhe:3Sc1rB

Guillaume DUFAY: _*Ecclesiae militantis*_ (1431)
:: Orlando Consort [Metronome] ~ 5½ minutes

John PLUMMER: _*Anna mater matris Christi*_ (c. 1440)
:: Hilliard Ensemble [HM] ~ 6 minutes
http://www.classicalm.com/en/disk/5878/Medieval-English-Music-The-Hilliard-Ensemble (track 10)

Walter FRYE: *Missa "Flos regalis"* (1450s)
:: Hilliard Ensemble [ECM] ~ 24 minutes
http://www.classicalm.com/en/composition/25501/Hilliard-Ensemble---Walter-Frye (tracks 2, 4, 6 & 7)

William CORNYSH: _*Ave Maria, mater Dei*_
:: Phillips/Tallis Scholars [Gimell] ~ 3 minutes
http://www.classicalm.com/en/disk/10892/The-Tallis-Scholars-Sing-Tudor-Church-Music-Vol1-CD2 (track 6)

Clément JANEQUIN: _*Réveillez vous, cueurs endormis*_ ("Le chant des oyseaulx") (c. 1520)
:: Ensemble Clément Janequin [HM] ~ 5½ minutes
http://www.classicalm.com/en/composition/25060/Janequin--Le-Chant-des-Oyseaulx (track 1)


----------



## SanAntone

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Here's an amazing performance of motet no. 23 by Machaut <3


I had a mixed reaction when I first listened to this recording of the Machaut _Messe_ (a work I know intimately well). But have grown to consider it one of the most important Early Music releases ever.


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## Faramundo

What a great achievement again !


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## cheregi

SanAntone said:


> I had a mixed reaction when I first listened to this recording of the Machaut _Messe_ (a work I know intimately well). But have grown to consider it one of the most important Early Music releases ever.


My reaction to this recording has similarly flip-flopped - from at first fascination with sheer strangeness, to then discounting it as superficial, weirdness for weirdness' sake, to then just enjoying it both as a listening experience and as an 'intervention' into early-music performance practice...

What is your perception of the recording's 'importance', though?

Last night with frequent lightning outside my windows I listened to the 2002 Schola Cantorum Brabantiae recording of the same work, under Rebecca Stewart's direction but quite different from the live recording Mandryka was sharing a while back, and it was awe-inspiring, there was a sense of 'rhetoric' to the work that made it feel totally 'grounded' and absolutely 'musical' in a completely different way than Graindelavoix, maybe the 'most polyphonic' the work has sounded, to me.

I am beginning to think that this work, which doesn't on its face interest me all that much - I read a while ago a fairly convincing argument that Machaut is much more acclaimed now than in his own day, he had the wealth to publish his own works in single-composer collections but they are almost never reprinted elsewhere, in contrast to someone like Philippe De Vitry whose works were widely anthologized and who is much more regularly cited in period sources as a Great - must have one of the most interesting recording/performance histories in WAM, the many different efforts to make it make musical sense...


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## Faramundo

Quietness Supreme !


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## Faramundo

Great double CD !


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## Mandryka

Faramundo said:


> Quietness Supreme !
> 
> View attachment 158509


Yes about three years ago I sampled a few of that sort of music by Hildegard (I mean, non-dramatic music). and I was very impressed by that one, maybe it was just the voice of the singer which turned me on. I've got a vague memory that Summerly did two Hildegard CDs in fact.


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## SanAntone

*Old Roman Chant* - _Venite exultemus_






Medieval Old Roman Chant.
Title: "Alleluia; Versus: Venite exultemus; Versus: Preoccupemus faciem eius"
Service: Easter Sunday Vespers
Performers: Ensemble Organum, Director: Marcel Peres
Album: "Chants de l' Eglise de Rome - Vêpres du jour de Pâques (VIe - XIIIe siecles)"


----------



## SanAntone

_Messes Anonymes: Missa Gross senen; Missa L'ardant desir_. *Cut Circle*
Musique en Wallonie MEW 2097










With a new, more intimate sound, Cut Circle introduces a pair of riveting, technically ambitious, historically important, and never-before-recorded polyphonic masses of the fifteenth century.

Jonas Budris, Tenor
Jesse Rodin, Director
Bradford Gleim, Baritone; Artistic Advisor
Paul Max Tipton, Baritone
Sonja DuToit Tengblad, Soprano



> These Masses have much in common aside from their shared lack of attribution. Both use contemporaneous love songs as a cantus firmus: the Missa Gross senen borrows the German lied "Gross senen ich in Herzen trag," while the Missa L'ardant desir's eponymous chanson apparently has not survived. Both are transmitted in only one source, in technically complex - and occasionally perplexing - notation, and both have their share of copying errors, which likely explains why neither has yet been recorded. (The copyist for Missa Gross senen, for example, apparently forgot to copy the altus voice in a section of the Gloria, which director Jesse Rodin reconstructed for this recording.) In each Mass, therefore, movements begin somewhat calmly before building in tension and suspense, upper voices swirling intricately around the long-held tenor, a mélange of sustained melodic lines, punchy rhythms, and shifting mensural sands. (Review, Early Music America)


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## SanAntone

*Cantigas de Santa Maria*






Montserrat Figueras, Josep Benet, Joaquim Proubasta, Sylvia Greiner, Gemma Jansana, Lauren Pomerantz, Josep Cabré, Guillén Francesc

Donald Irving, André Jéquier: recorder
Randall Cook: shawn, fiddle
Sterling Jones: rebab, rabel
Jason Paras: rebec, fiddle, lyra
Thomas Binkley: lute, citole, percussion
Ken Zukerman, Solomon Ross: lute
Robert Clancy: mandora
Laurent Aubert: gittern
Terumi Chinone: chitarra saracenica
Timothy Doughty: harp
Sally Thorpe-Smith: psaltery
Thomas Binkley, dir.


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## Rogerx

Ma maistresse

Capilla Flamenca

Oh Flanders Free: Music of the Flemish Renaissance

Unbelievable good harmony .


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## SanAntone

*GOMBERT* - _Masses & Motets_ - the sound and the fury


> Nicolas Gombert is indisputably one of the most important composers of the Renaissance. Compared to this, recordings of his works are rare. «The sound and the fury» invites on a representative journey of discovery with sacred music that was once «state of the art» at the court of Charles V.












One of their better recordings.


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## Rogerx

SanAntone said:


> *GOMBERT* - _Masses & Motets_ - the sound and the fury
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of their better recordings.



There is a new on the way, very curious .


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## SanAntone

*Troubadours and Trouvères*






Studio Der Frühen Musik, Thomas Binkley, Nigel Rogers, Sterling Jones

The troubadours and trouvères were medieval poet-musicians who created one of the first repertories of vernacular song to be written down. Their legacy is vast, existing today in many dozens of late medieval manuscripts that contain thousands of poems and hundreds of melodies largely attributed to individual troubadours and trouvères. The study of this repertory is often divided along geographic and linguistic lines. The troubadours, considered the earliest vernacular song composers, resided in the south of what is largely now France, spoke the regional vernacular now known as "Occitan," and chiefly wrote their texts in the Old Provençal dialect. The trouvères lived in the north of France, writing poetry in Old French. Although the repertories of the troubadours and trouvères appear to have much in common, i.e., themes of love and betrayal, similar poetic genres and even melodies, the songs reflect the considerable differences in politics, religion, and social history between the two contiguous regions. The historical era of the troubadours and trouvères is fairly well defined. Guilhem (b. 1071-d. 1126), seventh count of Poitou and ninth duke of Aquitaine, emerged as the first troubadour. By mid-12th century, troubadour ideals had spread north, spawning the trouvère movement. The troubadour art had reached its high point by the end of the 12th century and suffered a near-fatal blow with the destruction of many Occitan courts, sources of troubadour patronage, during the Albigensian Crusade (c. 1209-1229). At that time many troubadours left to find havens at courts in Italy, Spain, and as far east as Hungary. Meanwhile the trouvères experienced great social change as feudalism waned in the 13th century and gradually more trouvères began leaving the aristocratic courts and estates to work in burgeoning urban centers such as Arras. By the 14th century, as the viable tradition of both the troubadours and the trouvères withered, societies and academies were established to preserve and promote the art. The tradition of published scholarship on the troubadours and trouvères dates back to the 14th century, at least to Dante's De Eloquentia. Into the 19th century it was largely focused on finding and cataloguing the manuscript sources. Barring unexpected discoveries, the repertory is well established now and scholarship has turned toward evaluating the repertory within its known parameters. Today cogent research on the troubadours and trouvères requires an interdisciplinary approach. Among the philologists, musicologists, paleographers, and historians who are devoted to this repertory, a high degree of specialization and cross-disciplinary cooperation is required. (Oxford Bibliographies)


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## premont

Rogerx said:


> There is a new on the way, very curious .


As I wrote earlier it's a rerelease of a recording from 2010. It's better than their first Ockeghem CD, (which suffers from a dominating countertenor voice and a tenor, which doesn't blend well with the other singers), but not quite as good as their Gombert CDs.


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## Chilham

At last, Rooley has some competition. I'm enjoying it.










Wilbye: "Draw on Sweet Night" Selected madrigals from Wilbye's first and second sets.

Hollingsworth, I Fagiolini


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## RICK RIEKERT

For Wilbye, there are for me none better than the Deller Consort. Wilbye’s _Ah, cannot sigh, nor tears, nor aught else move thee, _and_ Lady your words do spite me _showcase the group at their most intense and moving.


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## SanAntone

*Music In Medieval Denmark*






Ensemble: Peregrina, Agnieszka Budzinska-Bennett & Benjamin Bagby
Album: Mare Balticum Vol. 1 - Music In Medieval Denmark
Video: Carta Marina et descriptio septemtrionalium terrarum ac mirabilium rerum in eis contentarum, diligentissime elaborata anno 1539 Veneciis liberalitate Reverendissimi Domini Ieronimi Quirini - Olao Magno, XVI secolo


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## SanAntone

*Poissance d'Amours mystics, monks and minstrels in 13th-century Brabant*
Ensemble: Graindelavoix, Björn Schmelzer dir.






Little attention has been given on record so far to the music and writings emanating from the flourishing economic and cultural environs of 13th-century Brabant but it is from the remarkable outpouring associated with this medieval duchy – covering the areas of Brussels, Antwerp and the present day Belgian provinces of Vlaams and Walloon Brabant as well as Noord-Brabant in The Netherlands – that Björn Schmelzer and Graindelavoix have created their third recording for Glossa. In Caput (GCD P32101) and Joye (GCD P32102) Schmelzer and his Antwerp-based ensemble explored in the late medieval music of Johannes Ockeghem and Gilles Binchois undercurrents that illuminate our own times. What preoccupies Graindelavoix in early music is the bond between notation and what eludes it: the higher consciousness and savoir-faire that the performer brings to a piece (ornamentation, improvisation, gestures...). An integral part of this new project – uniting three broad groups active in Brabant, mystics, monks and minstrels – is where it was recorded: the Dominican Church in Leuven, where Schmelzer considers much of this music may have been performed. Constructed following the model of the Sainte Chapelle in Paris, the church retains an acoustic unchanged by the passing of time and contributes to a new CD which provides a fascinating musical account of an important region of Europe in the 13th century.


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## SanAntone

*Dowland: Lessons*
Jonas Nordberg, lute

_Nordberg plays a nine-course lute strung in gut, with a string-length of 65 cm tuned to g’ at A=392. It was built by Lars Jönssen. In modern times it has been common to tune lutes to g’ at modern pitch (A=440), which requires a smallish lute with a string-length of 60 cm, and which can sound a bit tinkly. Nordberg’s larger lute is effectively tuned a tone lower, giving a richer, warmer sound, which is ideal for Dowland’s lute solos._ (Early Music Review)


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## SanAntone

*ESTAMPIES & DANSES ROYALES. Le manuscrit du roi ca.1270-1320*
Hespèrion XXI
Jordi Savall






“The estampie is a musical composition without words which has a complex melodic progression (habens difficiles concordantiarum discretionem) and which is divided into points (puncti). Because of its difficulty, it totally absorbs both the performer and the listener, and often distracts the minds of the rich from wicked thoughts” – an echo of the profound and abiding conviction of those early minstrels and poet-musicians, who even then were aware of the powerful influence that music can have in the education of human beings.


----------



## SanAntone

The troubadours are Occitan poets, who developed the art of courtly singing between 1000 and 1350, ie 8 to 10 generations. We are left with the names of 450 troubadours and more than 2,500 songs.

They are usually high-ranking people. Their works are peddled by the minstrels.

The oldest testimonies are the *Duke of Aquitaine*, *Guillaume IX*, residing in Poitiers, and his vassal, *Viscount Eble de Ventadour*.

Later, *Gascons Cercamon* and *Marcabru*, the Prince of Blaye, *Jaufré Rudel*. Later still, *Bernard Marti*, *Bernard de Ventadour*, *Guiraut de Bornelh*, *Peire Vidal*, *Arnaut Daniel*, *Raimbaut de Miraval*, women also, the trobairitz , like a *countess of Die*, or the lady *Na Castelloza*, until the "last of the troubadours", *Guiraut Riquier de Narbonne*..., but not really, if we count the activity, until 1350, of poets from Toulouse, grouped together in the "Consistoire du gai savoir", who wrote the rules of an art which did not survive them.

The Albigensian Crusade destabilized Occitania, impoverished the courts, gradually moved art towards the cities and bourgeois houses, and changed the poetic subjects towards the religious, the political. The artists themselves were drawn to Spain and Italy.

The trouvères, are the poets, who in the north of the Loire adapt the courtly song, towards the end of the XII E century. We know the names of 200 trouvères (Gace Brulé, Blondel de Nesle, Conon de Béthune, etc.). In Germany, they are called the Minnesinger . (www-musicologie-org)


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## SanAntone

*17th-Century Sonatas from the Düben Collection
Spiritato* directed by Kinga Ujszászi. Delphian Records, DCD43276






Between 1640 and 1720 the immigrant German Düben family produced three generations of Capellmeisters at Sweden’s wealthy and fashionable Royal Court, where they amassed a huge collection of printed music and manuscripts.The meticulous cataloguing of this collection at Uppsala University has allowed Spiritato’s Kinga Ujszászi to fulfil the ensemble's avowed aim of exploring a vast and little-known repertory.


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## SanAntone

*William Byrd: Psalmes, Songs & Sonnets 1611*. 
The Sixteen, conducted by Harry Christophers, and Fretwork. 
Two CDs. CORO COR16193.

Few ensembles generate recordings as regularly as The Sixteen. The British ensemble, which has stood as a pillar of the UK choral scene since its first concerts in 1979, consistently releases four albums a year on their in-house label, CORO. (Until 2018, that number often totaled a staggering six or seven.)

For their final record of 2022, The Sixteen and founding director Harry Christophers give William Byrd’s final self-published musical volume, the 1611 _Psalmes, Songs, and Sonnets_, its first cover-to-cover recording. The 32-work tome combines voicings, instrumentations, and subjects: lean, cheeky three-part settings give way to larger works of both sacred and secular polyphony, consort songs, and even a few early fantasias for 17th-century Britain’s most in-vogue instrument, the viol, played here by stalwart British consort Fretwork. (full review)

*O God That Guides The Cheerful Sun*


----------



## eljr

SanAntone said:


> *William Byrd: Psalmes, Songs & Sonnets 1611*.
> The Sixteen, conducted by Harry Christophers, and Fretwork.
> Two CDs. CORO COR16193.
> 
> Few ensembles generate recordings as regularly as The Sixteen. The British ensemble, which has stood as a pillar of the UK choral scene since its first concerts in 1979, consistently releases four albums a year on their in-house label, CORO. (Until 2018, that number often totaled a staggering six or seven.)
> 
> For their final record of 2022, The Sixteen and founding director Harry Christophers give William Byrd’s final self-published musical volume, the 1611 _Psalmes, Songs, and Sonnets_, its first cover-to-cover recording. The 32-work tome combines voicings, instrumentations, and subjects: lean, cheeky three-part settings give way to larger works of both sacred and secular polyphony, consort songs, and even a few early fantasias for 17th-century Britain’s most in-vogue instrument, the viol, played here by stalwart British consort Fretwork. (full review)
> 
> *O God That Guides The Cheerful Sun*


I have had this in my queue for a while now. Still have not gotten around to it. 

They also appear on other's recording during year.


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## Rogerx

I ordered this one, with a bit of luck arriving today .


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## SanAntone

*𝐴𝑖𝑢𝑡𝑎 𝐷𝑒' 𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑎 𝑙𝑢𝑠 𝑒𝑡 𝑔𝑎𝑟𝑐̧𝑎𝑡, 𝑅𝑒𝑥 𝐺𝑙𝑜𝑟𝑖𝑜𝑠𝑜 - 𝑎𝑛 𝐼𝑡𝑎𝑙𝑖𝑎𝑛 "𝐴𝑙𝑏𝑎" 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑋𝐼𝐼𝐼 𝑐𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑢𝑟𝑦*






The Alba (sunrise) was a very popular poetic genre in the 12th and 13th centuries, in which two lovers, after a night of love, are in torment for the arrival of dawn, the daylight is the moment in which they must separate rapidly if they do not want to be discovered by the “Gilos”, her husband. It has to be remembered that in the past marriages did not take place for love and, according to the laws of Courtly Love, it was accepted for a woman to have only one lover, chosen for true and sincere love, in addition to her husband. Often in these compositions the verses were sung by a fourth figure, called "sentry". It could be a male or a female and had the task of watching over the two lovers and waking them up quickly in case of problems or at sunrise if they weren't awake. The most famous alba that has come complete with music is that of *Giraut de Borneill*, a troubadour born in Aquitaine, called by his contemporaries "master of the troubadours". 

The geographical borders in the 12th and 13th centuries were very different from today and from Provence this successful musical and poetic motif also reached northern Italy. “Aiuta De '” is the translation of Giraut's Occitan composition “Rei glorios” into a Piedmontese vernacular, written in the thirteenth century, before 1240, and preserved in the manuscript E 15 sup. of the Ambrosiana Library in Milan. Dating from around 1240, this document is a proof of the fact that this piece was well known in northern Italy. Murmur Mori's version combines the Italian text with the music of the one wrote by Giraut de Borneill contained in the ms. Français 22543 of the National Library of France. Unfortunately, in the Italian text the last verse is illegible, the ensemble wanted to fill this gap with the singing of a morning bird.

Lyrics: ms. E 15 sup., Biblioteca Ambrosiana, 13th century
Music: Giraut de Borneill - Rei glorios, ms. Français 22543, BnF, 14th century


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## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> The Alba (sunrise) was a very popular poetic genre in the 12th and 13th centuries, in which two lovers, after a night of love, are in torment for the arrival of dawn, the daylight is the moment in which they must separate rapidly if they do not want to be discovered by the “Gilos”, her husband. It has to be remembered that in the past marriages did not take place for love and, according to the laws of Courtly Love, it was accepted for a woman to have only one lover, chosen for true and sincere love, in addition to her husband. Often in these compositions the verses were sung by a fourth figure, called "sentry". It could be a male or a female and had the task of watching over the two lovers and waking them up quickly in case of problems or at sunrise if they weren't awake.


Interesting if true in the context of Tristan.


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## SanAntone

*Guillaume de Machaut: Remede de Fortune* 
Blue Heron and Les Délices.
BHCD 1012










In *Guillaume de Machaut*’s (1300-1377) long-form narrative poem, _Le remède de fortune_ (The Remedy for Fortune), the Lady personifies capricious love, a force which, like luck, subjects those in its orbit to the mercy of unseen forces.

Machaut’s dit, including its seven lyric poems set to music, is now a collaborative project between two of America’s leading historically informed ensembles, *Blue Heron* and *Les Délices*. The partnership has resulted in a captivating new album, _Remede de Fortune_, released on the Blue Heron label. (review)

This along with Orlando Consort upcoming 9th installment (of 11), also of _Remede de Fortune_ (Feb 3, 2023), in their complete traversal of Machaut's music makes this a very good time for Machaut lovers, such as myself.

The above recording by Blue Heron and Les Délices is a welcome addition to the few narrative song recordings by Machaut, which are rarely ever close to complete. The performances reflect sound musicological preparation and are appropriate to Machaut's period. The singing and playing are first rate.


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## Captainnumber36

I enjoy some of the music posted in this thread.


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## Rogerx

Two jewels.......


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## SanAntone

*Guillaume de Machaut - "Qui n'aroit autre deport"*
Ensemble Guillaume de Machaut 
Monophonic lai from _Le Remède de Fortune_






Fantastic performance of one of the songs from this major work by Machaut. It is also very nice to have the manuscript.


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## SanAntone

*Gace Brulé - *_Biaus m'este quant retentit la bruille_
Ensemble Gilles Binchois - Dominique Vellard, dir.






*Recording*: _Les Escholiers de Paris - Motets, Chansons et Estampies du XIIIe siècle _

Gace Brulé (c. 1160 - after 1213)

*Anne-Marie Lablaude* (voice, percussion)
*Susanne Norin* (voice)
*Emmanuel Bonnardot* (voice, rebec, vielle)
*Pierre Hamon* (recorders, flute, bagpipes, percussion)
*Brigitte Lesne* (voice, harp, percussion)
*Dominique Vellard* (voice, cittern)
*Willem de Waal* (voice, recorder)
*Randall Cook* (vielle, shawm, recorder)


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## SanAntone

*The Tournai Mass* is the oldest polyphonic Mass to have survived. Dating from 1349, it is preserved in the library of the cathedral of Tournai (Belgium) with identification number A 27 and is dedicated to the Virgin Mary.

It was traditional to 'arrange' sections of the Propers of the Mass in polyphonic style to embellish the religious ceremonies of the great festivals such as Christmas and Easter, but a new practice appeared during the 14th century. The text of the Ordinary of the Mass - the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus and Agnus Dei - was set to music with the intention of creating a cycle: the polyphonic Mass. Many excerpts from such works have survived, but the Tournai Mass is the first complete example to have done so.

The Tournai Mass is a compilation rather than a single unified composition; the various sections are not attributed to any individual composer and they all originate from different places and periods. They were assembled and seem to have been copied out by one particular clerk. The apparent cohesion of the group of pieces is limited to the three-part homophonic writing common to all the pieces except for the final motet. Two types of notations are employed: Franconian or modal notation, characteristic of the Ars Antiqua, used in the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei, and mensural notation, showing the clerk's mastery of the innovations brought in with the Ars Nova in the Gloria, Credo and Ite missa est.






*Ensemble De Caelis, Laurence Brisset








*


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## SanAntone

*Music from the Old Hall Manuscript
Gothic Voices*
76:03
Linn CKD 644

There is always room on my shelves for a new selection of music from the Old Hall Manuscript, particularly when the music is as well sung as it is here. *Gothic Voices*, always leaders in the field of mediaeval and early Renaissance polyphony, bring a wealth of joint experience to this CD, and relatively obscure names such as Cooke, Mayshuet, Damett, Forest and Lymburgia are once again allowed to rub shoulders with their more celebrated contemporaries, Power, Byttering, Dunstaple, Pycard, and even the ubiquitous Binchois and Dufay. 










*Agnus Dei*


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## SanAntone

*Ensemble Pro Victoria's Tudor Music Afterlives*
Taverner, John Sheppard, Jacob Clemens non Papa, Jacotin Le Bel (or Claudin de Sermisy), Philip van Wilder, Orlande Lassus, Robert Parson, John Taverner and Christopher Tye, Ensemble Pro Victoria, Toby Ward, Toby Carr, Magnus Williamson; Delphian






A fascinating disc that examines the diverse after-lives of the pieces of Tudor music that were overlooked, forgotten or discarded, all in stylish and vibrant performances


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## SanAntone

*Vincente Lusitano: Motets; The Marian Consort*
This disc from The Marian Consort presents a little more than a third of the total surviving output of a composer who virtually disappeared from the historical record. A glimpse into a richly imaginative work, performed with luminous clarity.






Like many Renaissance composers, we know frustratingly little about the life of Portuguese composer Vincente Lusitano. Even his name isn't a help, it simply means Portuguese. He appears in the historical record for around a decade, then disappears again. Later sources fill in some background, but a manuscript by João Franco Barreto written in the mid-seventeenth century provides one important key. João Franco Barreto describes Lusitano as ‘pardo’, a Portuguese term used to denote a mixed-race person of European and African parentage. Thanks to the significant slave trade in 16th century Portugal, there was a significant population of people of African descent. Lusitano was a priest, and whilst mixed-race men did become priests the salaried posts were all reserved for white men.


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## Mandryka

Prague Madrigal Singers, Obrecht Zart. An old recording obviously, rereleased in May this year. Instruments - I wouldn’t like to say what current ideas about performance practice have to say about that. And historical sound of course. 

What can a rerelease like this have of interest for people like us? People who are familiar with Maria Zart sung by Tallis Scholars and Beauty Farm. 

What it has made me see is how contemporary ideas of the Flemish renaissance favour fluidity and sensuality. This earlier recording is more about energy, rhythm. How the modern aesthetics came about is a mystery to me - just a reaction maybe. 

I think it’s well worth a listen, and may well be one of the most valuable releases of renaissance music this year.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Prague Madrigal Singers, Obrecht Zart. An old recording obviously, rereleased in May this year. Instruments - I wouldn’t like to say what current ideas about performance practice have to say about that. And historical sound of course.
> 
> What can a rerelease like this have of interest for people like us? People who are familiar with Maria Zart sung by Tallis Scholars and Beauty Farm.
> 
> What it has made me see is how contemporary ideas of the Flemish renaissance favour fluidity and sensuality. This earlier recording is more about energy, rhythm. How the modern aesthetics came about is a mystery to me - just a reaction maybe.


So if you prefer a stiff inflexible interpretation, Venhoda's old recordings are ideal.
But if you prefer a flexible and expressive interpretation, Beauty Farm is ideal.

OK a matter of taste, but even if Venhoda is assisted by the Clemencic Consort, he bores me, while the Beauty Farm delights me. There is a reason, why performance ideals changed.


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## Mandryka

premont said:


> So if you prefer a stiff inflexible interpretation, Venhoda's old recordings are ideal.
> But if you prefer a flexible and expressive interpretation, Beauty Farm is ideal.
> 
> OK a matter of taste, but even if Venhoda is assisted by the Clemencic Consort, he bores me, while the Beauty Farm delights me. There is a reason, why performance ideals changed.


Oh I don’t think Venhoda is stiff or inflexible, or that what he does is inexpressive. Listen to the qui tolis, for example.

(Clemencic in Obrecht’s Missa Super Tuum praesidium does seem a bit stiff and inexpressive though!) 

(The Venhoda Maria Zart reminds me of the Duncan Ferguson Missa Corona Spinea (Taverner), which I also played yesterday. Obrecht predates Taverner by a generation.)


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> Prague Madrigal Singers, Obrecht Zart. Instruments - I wouldn’t like to say what current ideas about performance practice have to say about that.


Merry Christmas to you, Mandryka. The year before Obrecht visited Innsbruck in 1504 on his way to assume his new post as _maestro di cappella_ at the ducal court in Ferrara, Philip the Fair had visited his father at Innsbruck, and their two chapels joined in singing Mass with instruments. Maximilian had a fondness for instrumental chamber music and liked to hear instruments included with the singing of Mass. The Mass was performed 'with organs and all the instruments'. A few days after this Mass was performed, another was celebrated by the two chapels. 'The sackbuts of the King', it was reported, 'began the Gradual and played the _Deo gratias_ and _Ita missa est_, and the singers of monseigneur [Philip] sang the Offertory.'


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Oh I don’t think Venhoda is stiff or inflexible, or that what he does is inexpressive. Listen to the qui tolis, for example.
> 
> (Clemencic in Obrecht’s Missa Super Tuum praesidium does seem a bit stiff and inexpressive though!)
> 
> (The Venhoda Maria Zart reminds me of the Duncan Ferguson Missa Corona Spinea (Taverner), which I also played yesterday. Obrecht predates Taverner by a generation.)


My acquaintance with Venhoda rests upon some Dufay mass recordings from the 1960es. I have now listened to some Obrecht movements on youtube. The style is how I recalled. Clear texture but the choir is too big without true kontrapuntal voice leading reducing the movements to mass movements (pun intended). And the music as such transformed to "Kapellmeistermusik". Already about 1973 I culled my Venhoda LPs, because I didn't stand his style.


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## Mandryka

Happy Christmas Rick and Poul.

My view is that in music as difficult as Super Maria Zart, it's good to experience all attempts to make the mass setting work in performance. The thing I got from Venhoda is the energy. Peter Philips and Beauty Farm probably bring other valuable things, it's a while since I heard what they do. I've seen it in concert once, with Cappella Pratensis, and IMO it fell flat. That experience makes me think this is probably really very hard music to perform.


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## Mandryka

.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Happy Christmas Rick and Poul.
> 
> My view is that in music as difficult as Super Maria Zart, *it's good to experience all attempts to make the mass setting work in performance.* The thing I got from Venhoda is the energy. Peter Philips and Beauty Farm probably bring other valuable things, it's a while since I heard what they do. I've seen it in concert once, with Cappella Pratensis, and IMO it fell flat. That experience makes me think *this is probably really very hard music to perform*.


This is of course true. It's hard music to perform in a convincing and engaged way. So having listened to a number of performances one chooses the one(s) which does the most for one - a subjective choice.

Happy Christmas to you, Howard.


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