# WAGNER and R.STRAUSS



## xJuanx (Feb 24, 2009)

I've never been appealed to listen any of their operas, but now I got curious and I would like some recommendations. They have so many that I don't know which is the best option for a start. I hear options!


----------



## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

xJuanx said:


> I've never been appealed to listen any of their operas, but now I got curious and I would like some recommendations. They have so many that I don't know which is the best option for a start. I hear options!


Wagner's best operas aren't always the most accessible for someone who's not familiar with his music. _Der Fliegende Hollander_ and _Tannhauser_ are great - not as great as the later ones perhaps, but there are lots of great tunes and they are not as long winded as _The Ring_ operas or _Tristan und Isolde_ which you might find easier to get into once you've digested the earlier ones. Just speaking from personal experience of course, these things work differently for different people.

Strauss' style changed significantly after _Elektra_, so it depends a bit on whether you prefer the more Wagnerian (but more concise) style of his horror operas D) _Salome_ and _Elektra_ or the lighter textures of his later works, in which case _Der Rosenkavalier_ (which Strauss himself described as his Le Nozze di Figaro) is an obvious recommendation. All three are masterpieces though and if you like them there are many other interesting Strauss operas worth exploring.

DVD's are also a great option - there are sevaral available of many important operas these days.


----------



## xJuanx (Feb 24, 2009)

Great! I thought Der Rosenkavalier was going to best option and so it seems! Thanks!


----------



## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

Capriccio for Strauss,
Meistersingers for Wagner


----------



## jaybee57 (Jan 22, 2009)

Try Wagner without words to begin with: the overtures and preludes. There is even a CD of The Ring without words (Lorin Maazel and the Berlin Phil if memory serves) which my son, amongst others, found a good entry point to Wagner. I am not sure about Meistersingers as a Wagner opera starter though certainly a wonderful work. I think maybe Walkure - the second opera in the Ring Cycle - might be good starting point. It has, in the first Act, one of the greatest Acts in all opera. Act 2 is not the easiest Wagner, but Act 3 has instant appeal and some simply glorious music. 

I am a big fan of Strauss's tone poems which are, perhaps, more accessible than his operas to begin with. I would certainly second the recommendation of Der Rosenkavalier and indeed the less popular but lovely Capriccio.


----------



## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jaybee57 said:


> Try Wagner without words to begin with: the overtures and preludes.


I'm not sure about this. I suspect that listening to Wagner without the singing may tend to reinforce existing prejudices rather than break them down. So at the risk of generating confusion, I'd suggest a good 'highlights' recording in the first instance, maybe this one:










(or something similar). It won't cost you much, and it will give you a genuine taste of _The Ring_ as it really is, in which the voices are integrated into the whole, rather than the never-very-satisfactory orchestral arrangements.


----------



## xJuanx (Feb 24, 2009)

Thanks! Maybe a higlight's album would be fine, but I'm not very keen on them, I rather listen an etire opera. And what about interpeters? I'm downloading an Elizabeth Shwarzkopf version of Der Ronsekawalier, but have no clue about Wagner.


----------



## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

xJuanx said:


> Thanks! Maybe a higlight's album would be fine, but I'm not very keen on them, I rather listen an etire opera. And what about interpeters? I'm downloading an Elizabeth Shwarzkopf version of Der Ronsekawalier, but have no clue about Wagner.


Downloading? I hope you have the libretto. Opera can be hard going if you don't know what's going on.

For Wagner: Klemperer for _Der Fliegende Hollander_, Solti for _Tannhauser_, Solti for _Der Ring_ and Furtwangler for _Tristan und Isolde_, even though it's a mono recording.

For Strauss: Solti or Sinopoli for _Salome_, Solti for _Elektra_, Karajan (Schwarzkopf) for _Der Rosenkavalier_ and Schirmer (Kiri Te Kanawa) for _Capriccio_.

Plenty of other very good recordings of Wagner and Strauss operas of course - including of their operas that haven't been mentionned so far.

This one with arias and scenes from _Der Rosenkavalier_, _Arabella_ and _Capriccio_ also makes for a excellent introduction to Strauss.


----------



## xJuanx (Feb 24, 2009)

Thank you very much! I can borrow that Renee Fleming album from someone I know who owns it.
And I'm obviosuly going to get the libretto, if not I wouldn't even bother hearing something I don't understand.


----------



## Atabey (Oct 8, 2008)

Do not start with the Ring or Tristan! Start with something more suitable to unfamiliar listener like Hollaender,Meistersinger or Rienzi..


----------



## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

xJuanx said:


> Thanks! Maybe a higlight's album would be fine, but I'm not very keen on them, I rather listen an etire opera.


So would I. The difficulty with getting started in _The Ring_, however - and I think it is unique in that respect - is that absorbing the 'entire opera' requires immense commitment and a substantial financial outlay. The advantage of a highlights record is that you get something like an overview (albeit an inadequate one) of its vastness, and most importantly, you get to know some of the key leitmotifs very quickly - and that is like an entry ticket into the cycle as a whole. I wasn't suggesting the highlights disc as an end in itself - just as a temporary doorway, leading in.

The alternative can be really quite difficult - I mean, in terms of finding a way in, from the cold. _Gotterdammerung_, for instance, is a work of great genius, but when one is approaching it for the first time, the long introduction with the three norns can seem interminable and very off-putting. There's a danger of simply giving up, prematurely.

Incidentally, I don't see any reason for not starting with the _Ring_. That's what I did, and it was absolutely the right thing to do, for me. I never did learn to enjoy _Mastersingers_, or _The Flying Dutchman_ very much.


----------



## xJuanx (Feb 24, 2009)

Thinking about Wagner I remembered I started hearing Mastersingers and found it unbearable; but I was 9 years old so I guess it doesn't count.
When I get to hear something I'll let everyone know how did it go.


----------



## nickgray (Sep 28, 2008)

The Ring cycle (Solti's). It's really long, complicated and requires tons of time and commitment to digest. But I honestly can't recommend his other operas to give you a starting point for Wagner. Some may find it strange, but it was actually Bohm's Ring that really got me into classical music, so I guess this should explain my recommendation. Or... you can try The Dutchman, Tannhauser or Mastersingers, just don't start with Tristan, Parsifal or Lohengrin. Anyway... Go for the Solti's Ring, seriously


----------



## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

xJuanx said:


> Thinking about Wagner I remembered I started hearing Mastersingers and found it unbearable; but I was 9 years old...


I had trouble sitting through *Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg* at age 16- now look at me!
[Couldn't imagine being without it, now.]

An earlier thread mentioned that the Seattle Opera touted *Der Fliegende Hollander* as the most accessible Wagner opera. I countered by saying that I found *Tannhäuser* more accessible (despite being more than a half-hour longer). However, it's surprising to me, but documented in my reading of other boards, that some non-Wagnerians have gained some initial traction into Wagner's world via *Das Rheingold*. I wouldn't have expected that, but maybe that work deserves some consideration, too.


----------



## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> However, it's surprising to me, but documented in my reading of other boards, that some non-Wagnerians have gained some initial traction into Wagner's world via *Das Rheingold*. I wouldn't have expected that, but maybe that work deserves some consideration, too.


_Das Rheingold_ was the first Ring opera that I loved, probably because it's more concise than the others and full of action.


----------



## shsherm (Jan 24, 2008)

I attended a performance of "Das Rheingold" on Sunday by the Los Angeles Opera which has begun it's first Ring cycle. The staging was on the weird side and made me think of pictures as Picasso meets Dali but the singing and musical performance were quite well done. After the performance I attended a dinner with the cast members and conductor as guests. I was able to meet James Conlon, the conductor at the party as well as many Wagnerian opera stars many of whom perform in Beyreuth as well as worldwide.


----------



## msegers (Oct 17, 2008)

*xJuanx*, you can find the libretto of _Rosenkavalier _online:

German -
http://www.opera-guide.ch/libretto.php?id=353&uilang=de&lang=de

Bilingual German/English -
From - http://www.archive.org/details/derrosenkavalier002204mbp, you can download this file:
http://www.archive.org/download/derrosenkavalier002204mbp/derrosenkavalier002204mbp.pdf.

Damn, but I envy you... about to discover perhaps the most luscious opera ever written! Enjoy!


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I just accidentially found this very interesting thread.

I think Strauss is crescendo of Wagner - this title could be used to describe many composers like Mahler or Bruckner but although they were inflenced by his composing ways, none of them did take opera one step further after what Wagner did. This is what Strauss accomplished. His operatic works like Salome make one more successive effort to cut opera from it's entertaining role and make it higher and more artistic form. One can say that Rosenkavalier does something completely diffrent but we can forgive him this one since it doesn't ruin the important influence of his other great operas. I has egg.


----------



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

How about:

Instead if listening to a recording and perceiving only half the impressions. Buy a DVD or go to your opera house and properly experience the works as the composers intended them to be experienced. 

Its the only way!


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> Its the only way!


... for those who have no imagination.


----------



## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

emiellucifuge said:


> How about:
> 
> Instead if listening to a recording and perceiving only half the impressions. Buy a DVD or go to your opera house and properly experience the works as the composers intended them to be experienced.
> 
> Its the only way!


I LOVE opera DVD's, but if experiencing the works as the composers intended is your most important concern you better stay away from most productions these days.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> I LOVE opera DVD's, but if experiencing the works as the composers intended is your most important concern you better stay away from most productions these days.


If you subscribe to Met Player (I know, I sound like a broken record, always saying this) you can explore fairly traditional productions of most Wagner operas and a couple of Strauss. US15 a month + your broadband connection. You can do a 7 days free trial first. There are also audios.

https://www.metoperafamily.org/met_player/index.aspx

Then you can decide what you like without too much financial outlay.


----------



## ToneDeaf&Senile (May 20, 2010)

I agree that DVD/blu-ray can be one of the best ways to experience opera these days. Those who prefer staging that adheres to the composer's original conception must be cautious. But traditionally staged and costumed performances *do* exist.

A also agree that Rhiengold is a good introduction to Wagner. There are a number of DVD Ring cycles, but only one with traditional staging, the Levine/Met performances on DG. I seem in the minority by being rather taken with the entire Met cycle, while readily admitting its faults. Of the four Met productions, I think Rhiengold is the most consistently successful. First, there is no Behrens, most folks' chief complaint from a vocal standpoint. Siegfried Jerusalem, who I find somewhat hit-or-miss as Sigfried, is, in my opinion, spot-on as Loge. Special-effects, such as the opening Rhienmaiden scene, are well done. If tradition is less a concern there are, of course, other options to consider.

As to Richard Strauss there is, in my opinion, no finer interpretation of *any* piece of music than the Stratas/VPO/Bohm Salome film adaptation, which is available on DVD. (I own it on the old Laserdisc format.) If Rosenkavalier is more your thing, I can safely recommend the te Kanawa/Royal Opera/Solti video, though there are several highly regarded Kleiber-led DVDs on the market.

-ToneDeaf&Senile-


----------



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

This is a misunderstanding, I probably appreciate modern stagings more than traditional.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

With Wagner, it might be a good idea to listen to or watch DVDs of his operas one act at a time,
and to give yourself a breather between them. This might help you to digest them better, rather like a big meal. And Wagner certainly is a big meal! 
The Richard Strauss operas, except for Der Rosenkavalier and Die Frau Ohne Schatten,tend to be much shorter. Salome and Elektra are both one act works,just over an hour and a half each.
But they're extremely intense operas, and very heady.
For the Ring, I recommend the DVD of the Met's recently retired production with James Levine conducting, because it is entirely without arbitrary gimmicks in design and staging, and represents the drama faithfully.
Der Fliegende Hollander is mercifully short for Wagner, and a good place to start.


----------



## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

emiellucifuge said:


> This is a misunderstanding, I probably appreciate modern stagings more than traditional.


In some cases I like modern stagings, but in many other cases I don't. I mean, when I see some guy in a suit and tie being referred to as a water goblin I don't know if I should laugh or cry.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

As for modern interpretations - anyone saw Walkurie DVD by Boulez? What the hell is that? They don't wear ancient customes like heroes of germanic legends, they don't wear modern clothes... they wear clothes like XIXth century people  Wotan is dressed like Alfredo from Zefirelli's _Traviata_, frock coat + spear in hand... indescribeable.


----------



## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

Aramis said:


> As for modern interpretations - anyone saw Walkurie DVD by Boulez? What the hell is that? They don't wear ancient customes like heroes of germanic legends, they don't wear modern clothes... they wear clothes like XIXth century people  Wotan is dressed like Alfredo from Zefirelli's _Traviata_, frock coat + spear in hand... indescribeable.


Misgivings about the bizarre costumes aside, I have to admit I still enjoyed that production. The flame effects were fantastic and the staging was very well directed. I was really impressed by the casting of Sieglinde and Siegmund too although I did chuckle at the fact that Brunnhilde looked an entire generation older than them both.


----------



## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Starting next Saturday (29 May 2010) USC Radio (University of Southern California) will begin its broadcast of Los Angeles Opera's Ring Cycle (2009-10). The staging has been highly controversial, but the singing and playing are splendid.

http://www.kusc.org/Channels/Programs/Story.aspx?ID=1230542


----------



## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

I hadn't seen this thread before now, because I was busy going through five performances of verdi's Don Carlo/s, which took most of this weekend, but I find this conversation really interesting.

As for Wagner, I agree with jhar26. Der Fliegende Holländer and Tannhäuser are the easiest introduction to Wagner. You don't necessarily have to understand a word to enjoy the music. Lohengring might be added to this group. When you listen to these, the will to know what's actually happening, will grow naturally and you'll want to have a look at the librettos.

For Strauss, Salome would be a safe bet. Since no-one has done it yet, I would suggest Die Ariadne auf Naxos. Der Rosenkavalier, while containing the most beautiful music Strauss ever wrote, may seem a total chaos, if you don't know what is going on.


----------



## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

mamascarlatti said:


> If you subscribe to Met Player (I know, I sound like a broken record, always saying this) you can explore fairly traditional productions of most Wagner operas and a couple of Strauss. US15 a month + your broadband connection. You can do a 7 days free trial first. There are also audios.
> 
> https://www.metoperafamily.org/met_player/index.aspx
> 
> Then you can decide what you like without too much financial outlay.


Ok Natalie, you have convinced me: I HAVE SUBSCRIBED!  Currently I'm watching the 2008 opening night at the Met with Renée (one act each from La Traviata, Manon and the final scene from Capriccio - just finished watching the Traviata act) and I'm loving it.

I think I'm gonna have a lot of fun in the days/weeks/months to come there, thanks!


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Il Seraglio said:


> Misgivings about the bizarre costumes aside, I have to admit I still enjoyed that production. The flame effects were fantastic and the staging was very well directed. I was really impressed by the casting of Sieglinde and Siegmund too although I did chuckle at the fact that Brunnhilde looked an entire generation older than them both.


I enjoyed that production as well, although the acting was a bit primitive, especially the love scenes. Pawing flappily at each other does not in my book signify passion.

Rheingold was my introduction to Wagner as well, although I had toyed with Lohengrin. I watched the whole Levine cycle on Met player and thought Rheingold particularly was magical. Now I'm hooked, purchasing my fourth DVD cycle, and just watched Tristan for the first time. I think what I liked was the otherness of the music and concepts, it was so different from anything I had heard before.

Three things helped me appreciate Wagner:

1. Seeing it as opposed to just hearing it. I'm too lazy to use librettos, and without an understanding of what is going on at any given time it can also seem a little undifferentiated, especially as there are no arias (also my German is rather primitive..)

2. Learning to listen to the orchestra at least as much as the singers. It's different from say, Verdi, where the singing carries the music.

3. Borrowing this wonderful guide to the symbols and leitmotifs from the local library:


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> Ok Natalie, you have convinced me: I HAVE SUBSCRIBED!  Currently I'm watching the 2008 opening night at the Met with Renée (one act each from La Traviata, Manon and the final scene from Capriccio - just finished watching the Traviata act) and I'm loving it.
> 
> I think I'm gonna have a lot of fun in the days/weeks/months to come there, thanks!


Glad to hear it. Lots of great productions and most of the HDs coming too.

Yesterday I did the ironing to the last part of Eugene Onegin (on my laptop). Makes chopping vegetables fly by too!


----------



## BalloinMaschera (Apr 4, 2011)

I have to agree that The Flying Dutchman is probably the best introductory opera to Wagner


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Pffft. Here's how.

1. Buy the _damn_ Ring Cycle.
2. Put in DVD player and hit play.

Have you *really* got better things to do than watch what may be the greatest thing humanity has ever produced?
- Didn't think so.

Finding it slow or boring? 
- Press pause, go mix yourself a drink, stretch your legs, then resume. Repeat as necessary.

Made it all the way through, but didn't "get it"?
- Eject Götterdämmerung disk 2. Insert Das Rheingold. Press play. Repeat as necessary.

:lol:


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Couchie said:


> Pffft. Here's how.
> 
> 1. Buy the _damn_ Ring Cycle.
> 2. Put in DVD player and hit play.
> ...


It works for me. Seriously I began my exploration of Wagner with _Tristan und Isolde_ and _Parsifal_. I still haven't gotten around to exploring all of the "lesser" operas.


----------



## Lucifer (Nov 5, 2011)

if you want wagner,try die Fliegende Hollander,to start with,dont try jumping straight in to der ring Des Nibelungen!
Or you could try Die Feen.


----------



## Lucifer (Nov 5, 2011)

try edinburgh classical music,on amazon.You won't get better bargains!


----------



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Folks, the original poster's last activity was back in July of 2009. Trying to reply to these old threads doesn't really pay.


----------



## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm a little surprised that no one has recommended Wagner's _Lohengrin_. Sometimes described as the most "Italian" of Wagner's operas, it's full of beautiful music. The attached clip is from the 2009 Bavarian State Opera performance of the opera, with the leading roles taken by singers with incredibly gorgeous voices: Jonas Kaufmann and Anja Harteros:






This production has been released in DVD format. However, before you consider a purchase (if you like what you hear), I should note that this is a very non-traditional staging of the opera.


----------



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Yes, I love Lohengrin. In other occasions I've recommended it to novices.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

MAuer said:


> I'm a little surprised that no one has recommended Wagner's _Lohengrin_. Sometimes described as the most "Italian" of Wagner's operas, it's full of beautiful music. The attached clip is from the 2009 Bavarian State Opera performance of the opera, with the leading roles taken by singers with incredibly gorgeous voices: Jonas Kaufmann and Anja Harteros:


For many years Lohengrin was the only Wagner opera I liked.


----------

