# Please help - Do you know of any operas with modestly dressed women?



## deanandmichelle (Jul 27, 2014)

Hello all. Our family is so excited to be learning about opera! So far however we have only been listening to cds and reading librettos (we just finished the Magic Flute). 

I am trying to find videos of performances - Youtube, dvd, whatever - which would be suitable for our children to watch with us. We would like to find videos in which the women are modest on top - whether by Rossini, Verdi, Mozart, etc. By modest, I mean no sleeveless, no cleavage/cracks, no shoulders showing.

Thank you in advance!
Dean


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Dialogues des Carmelites, eh? It's all about nuns. Maybe not so suitable for children, they get beheaded in the end. Mozart and Da Ponte women are randy, I don't recommend them for your purpose but you could try this 



, they're covered and the music is of course gorgeous. Also try this *Barber of Seville*, great singers and Rosina is covered. Generally go for older productions, the new ones are off the hook in terms of dress


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

That's rather tough, because even traditional productions of operas composed during the 18th and 19th centuries will have women's fashions typical of those periods, which often had low-cut bodices (especially the 18th century/early 19th century) or off-the-shoulder styles. Videos of Humperdinck's _Hänsel und Gretel_, especially those made in the 1970s and '80s, should be pretty safe. The only other opera I can feel confident in recommending is Beethoven's _Fidelio_, in which the heroine Leonore disguises herself as a man to rescue her husband Florestan from prison. Here's a sample:






Other possibilities may be Puccini's _Madama Butterfly_ and La Fanciulla del West (Girl of the Golden West). Butterfly usually wears a kimono and is pretty well covered up, and Minnie, the heroine in the second opera, is normally conservatively dressed in mid-19th century dresses such as a woman would have worn in frontier California, where the opera's story is set. One caution with _Madama Butterfly_ -- unlike the other operas I've mentioned, it has a tragic ending (Butterfly commits suicide after she's been abandoned by her American Naval officer husband, Lt. Pinkerton). If you think it would bother your children, then that opera would probably best be avoided. Again, look for productions from the 1970s or '80s to be safe.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I honestly think that might be hard to find, as many beautiful period costumes for women show some degree of cleavage; it's just the nature of many period costumes. Thinking of the opera DVDs I own, the women's costumes for both of the Met's EUGENE ONEGINs (the first with Fleming and Hvorostovsky, the second with Netrebko and Kwiechen) are quite modest in a Victorian type of way. Maybe the best recommendation I can give you -- considering that you'll be watching with children -- is the Houston Grand Opera DVD of Cecilia Bartoli in Rossini's LA CENERENTOLA (that's CINDERELLA) -- although, come to think of it, the two stepsisters are sort of scantily clad (in 18th century-style undergarments) in the first scene. Mind you, all of this seems extremely modest compared to the sort of semi-nudity one sees on TV today! Frankly, I don't think your children will be scarred for life watching any of the productions I mentioned.

Edited to add: And then there's always Bellini's I PURITANI (my avatar shows Anna Netrebko in the role of Elvira from the Met DVD) -- nothing too low-cut on those Puritan women!


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## aimee (Nov 7, 2013)

*This Magic Flute video* was made especially for children. It's fun to watch, but there's no English subtitles, unfortunately.

*This Magic Flute - Hamburg State Opera 1971-Horst Stein* with dress code is very much suitable for kids, again no subtitles.

*This version of Magic Flute from ROH 2003-Collin Davis* is safe for children, too (I think) with very little cleavage shown from Pamina  and it comes with English subtitles which is a big plus.

*The Magic Flute (animation-mini version 29mins-English)*, Film Production with BBC Enterprises and BBC Bristol in association with the Welsh National Opera.

*Hänsel und Gretel*, ROH 2008-Colin Davis, English subtitles.

*Hansel & Gretel (movie)*, with music based on the Opera Hänsel und Gretel (English)

*La Cenerentola*, Milan 1981-Claudio Abbado, English subtitles.

I watched all of the above with my nieces & nephew (5-8 yrs old). They all meet your dress-code 'requirement' including storylines  
For other operas, I find their story plots don't fit for young kids.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Hello Dean... I'm confused. Why are women's shoulders and a little cleavage not suitable for children? I'd be more concerned about the murders and general low morals of many opera stories. Is it really worth being to prescriptive?


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

So if Salome dressed conservatively then kissing a decapitated head is just fine a and dandy? I'm afraid I don't even notice how the women dress in most operas. Stuff like Rigoletto just isn't suitable for kids no matter how the singers dress. Amahl and the Night Visitorsa and Hänsel und Gretel are standard operas for children.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I'm afraid from antique styles of fashion from the Baroque to current productions, décolleté apparel for the women is often de rigeur... this will more often than not be found in, even in a production of a 'children's story' like Cinderella. For you and your children, I think for now it may be audio only for a while -- at least until the youngsters reach full adulthood 

There are always Humperdinck's _Hansel und Gretel,_ Ravel's magical _L'enfant et les sortilèges,_ or Oliver Knussen's _Where the wild things are._


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

------------------------------------- dupe


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

deanandmichelle said:


> Hello all. Our family is so excited to be learning about opera! So far however we have only been listening to cds and reading librettos (we just finished the Magic Flute).
> 
> I am trying to find videos of performances - Youtube, dvd, whatever - which would be suitable for our children to watch with us. We would like to find videos in which the women are modest on top - whether by Rossini, Verdi, Mozart, etc. By modest, I mean no sleeveless, no cleavage/cracks, no shoulders showing.
> 
> ...


Get the 1978 Bernstein Fidelio. I have the same desire you do and not just for the kids.








This is as revealing as the women's clothing gets in this one:





Here is what the DVD cover looks like. Also, it is worth getting the DVD for the English subtitles which help greatly in following the opera.

Beware, not all Fidelio productions are this tame.


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## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

This is beyond my understanding. While some recent productions are a bit over the top, and may be a bit offensive to some, there are some dynamics here that apply to the singers, like it's a bit cooler for the ladies if they are not wrapped in cloaks. It's damn hot onstage (just look at the sweat on DVD closeups) and anyone who believes that operatic work is not physically demanding has never "trod the boards". Plus there are costume changes that are not eased by layers of clothing.

I guess that it's "chacun a son gout", but it seems that modern television exposes kids to a whole lot more than any opera in my collection ... well there is that ROH Rigoletto and Willi Decker's Traviata to lock away when the grandkids visit ...


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Regardless of dress, do you really contemplate as wise an exposure of innocent children to such a passionate and licentious an artform? Better to churn butter and machine sew to occupy eyes and ears from such evils.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

JohnGerald said:


> , but it seems that modern television exposes kids to a whole lot more than any opera in my collection ... well there is that ROH Rigoletto and Willi Decker's Traviata to lock away when the grandkids visit ...


 Good reason to turn off the television permanently--kids and adults.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Alexander said:


> Hello Dean... I'm confused. Why are women's shoulders and a little cleavage not suitable for children? I'd be more concerned about the murders and general low morals of many opera stories. Is it really worth being to prescriptive?


Definitely murder is not a good thing to casually watch. That is one wonderful thing about Fidelio. Even though there is a murder plot, nobody is murdered. Even the man who plots the murder is simply walked off to justice and not shown being hung or whatever they may have done with such in those days. Fidelio is an opera of high moral values and if produced to high moral standards (1978 Bernstein for example) it is a wonderful opera for all ages.

After a cursory review of a book of about 175 opera synopsis and found besides Fidelio only La Cenerentola (Rossini's Cinderella) that really looked acceptable. My standards were to avoid fornication, adultery, murder, and magic. There surely are others but it seems they are few and far between.

Once you find an acceptable opera then one needs to determine a quality and modest production of that opera.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I am also puzzled why children are deemed not capable of watching shows where historically appropriate dress is shown which - as other have pointed out - often involves décolleté. But kids see far worse in ads around the city.

My criteria when showing opera to my children are:


Is the music accessible?

Are they capable of understanding what is happening?

Will they be engaged - is the plot at their level? Does the story move at a reasonable pace?

Is there anything disturbing, violent or too sexually explicit in the production?

Three that worked for my daughter:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Three that worked for my daughter:


Ingmar Bergman's filmed production of _The Magic Flute_ is completely enchanting and charming, the comedic aspect very well brought out. Sung in Swedish (not much disturbing vs. hearing it, say, in French), with subtitles in English.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

The latest DVD of die Walküre ("the Valkyrie") from the Metropolitan Opera, if I remember correctly, has very "modest" costumes for the female characters. Not too sure about the breastplates on the men though. 

I assume you ask this question because you are religious and conservative. As someone who grew up in a conservative, religious family, I can tell you that though there are elements of incest and adultery in the plotline, it is not as disturbing as many stories from the Bible.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

I don't think you'll find one. Exposed arms and shoulders have been considered modest in Western cultures for the past 2 centuries.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

aimee said:


> *La Cenerentola*, Milan 1981-Claudio Abbado, English subtitles.


I have that La Cenerentola and it is an absolutely wonderful opera, but does have some cleavage and shoulders. The cleavage is with one of the obnoxious step-sisters and was not offensive as much as it is repulsive in the same way as the stereotypical plumber whose pants are hanging too low while struggling with mounting a commode to the floor. There are shoulders, but very modestly and tastefully shown as indicated here in one of the most beautiful parts of the opera (the step sisters are very modestly dressed in this scene having been humbled by the Prince's choice of their step-sister):

Frederica von Stade as Cinderella:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

This is a spoof thread, yes?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

deanandmichelle said:


> Hello all. Our family is so excited to be learning about opera! So far however we have only been listening to cds and reading librettos (we just finished the Magic Flute).
> 
> I am trying to find videos of performances - Youtube, dvd, whatever - which would be suitable for our children to watch with us. We would like to find videos in which the women are modest on top - whether by Rossini, Verdi, Mozart, etc. By modest, I mean no sleeveless, no cleavage/cracks, no shoulders showing.
> 
> ...


--
I know_ Moulin Rouge_ isn't to everyone's taste, but what kind of modesty are we talking about?

Lot sleeping with his daughters? Or taking women in warfare to be used as sexual slaves?


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## aimee (Nov 7, 2013)

You would be happy with this puppet version of the Magic Flute:

http://www.amazon.de/Die-Zauberfl%C3%B6te-Salzburger-Marionettentheater-DVD/dp/393918750X






but it seems the DVD is only available in Europe.

-----

This is another favorite of us -Hänsel und Gretel Opera Film 1981/Sir Georg Solti & the Wiener Philharmoniker


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Lets respect the parents wishes please.
sheeeesh


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Would it be best that the Good Book be taken out of public libraries?-- in the interests of children, that is.

http://www.amazon.com/X-Rated-Bible...&qid=1406573781&sr=1-1&keywords=x-rated+bible


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Would it be best that the Good Book be taken out of public libraries?-- in the interests of children, that is.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/X-Rated-Bible...&qid=1406573781&sr=1-1&keywords=x-rated+bible


My, aren't we clever 

The OP didn't ask to remove operas from the shelf,
only asked for recs that met their criteria,


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
> 
> Would it be best that the Good Book be taken out of public libraries?-- in the interests of children, that is.
> 
> ...


Cleverness aside, one wonders _indeed_ what "criteria" is being talked about when it comes to modesty and family values.

I never profess to be clever, as I'm merely the supermodel.

If I were clever I suppose I'd believe that man was made from dirt.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Cleverness aside, one wonders _indeed_ what "criteria" is being talked about when it comes to modesty and family values.
> 
> I never profess to be clever, as I'm merely the supermodel.
> 
> If I were clever I suppose I'd believe that man was made from dirt.


It's up to them oh witty one.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Hahaha. Good joke on everyone!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
> 
> Cleverness aside, one wonders indeed what "criteria" is being talked about when it comes to modesty and family values.
> 
> ...


_

Absolutely, Darling_. At least we can agree on something. _;D_


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> This is a spoof thread, yes?


Apparently not! 

I did wonder if my parents might have posted it, though


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> _
> 
> *Absolutely, Darling*_. At least we can agree on something. _;D_


Zsa Zsa Gabor?:lol:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
> 
> Absolutely, Darling. At least we can agree on something. ;D
> 
> Itullian: Zsa Zsa Gabor?


Oh, come on! She's charming in a hideous-sort-of-way; whereas I'm hideous in a charming-sort-of-way---- hardly the same thing.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Oh, come on! She's charming in a hideous-sort-of-way; whereas I'm hideous in a charming-sort-of-way---- hardly the same thing.


I'll have to think about that one 

I always preferred Eva anyway.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

While I personally think it's a bit strange to be very worried about children seeing women's shoulders and arms, I don't believe it's our place to criticize the OP for his values. IMO, that's a form of intolerance. He's asked for recommendations, so that's what he should get. Surely this thread shouldn't be a debate about religious values or the Bible.

Still, I do want to say the following: I'm aware that "new" things can often seem intimidating at first encounter. Being new to staged opera, maybe the OP has some idea that most opera costumes for women are very revealing. Mostly, they're not (though I have seen a couple that are!); and I would say that the _general tastefulness_ of the costume is really the important thing. A period dress can have a scoop neckline yet still be historically appropriate and flattering to the wearer, not revealing _too_ much cleavage. My point is that as the OP and his kids become more familiar with opera, the "modesty" issue will probably start to be less of an issue. It could simply be that at the moment it's assuming undue importance.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> While I personally think it's a bit strange to be very worried about children seeing women's shoulders and arms, I don't believe it's our place to criticize the OP for his values. IMO, that's a form of intolerance. He's asked for recommendations, so that's what he should get. Surely this thread shouldn't be a debate about religious values or the Bible.
> 
> Still, I do want to say the following: I'm aware that "new" things can often seem intimidating at first encounter. Being new to staged opera, maybe the OP has some idea that most opera costumes for women are very revealing. Mostly, they're not (though I have seen a couple that are!); and I would say that the _general tastefulness_ of the costume is really the important thing. A period dress can have a scoop neckline yet still be historically appropriate and flattering to the wearer, not revealing _too_ much cleavage. My point is that as the OP and his kids become more familiar with opera, the "modesty" issue will probably start to be less of an issue. It could simply be that at the moment it's assuming undue importance.


I agree. Besides, with the way things are going in opera, parental concerns seem to become more relevant with each passing year. ...or month.


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## deanandmichelle (Jul 27, 2014)

A hearty thank you to everyone who took our family's question seriously! No less than seven different folks recommended titles/versions so far, and many even provided images of dvd's or even youtube links. Again, thank you!!! I am viewing the ones I can find online, and hope to get samples of the others somehow before I buy. These sort of recommendations seem the best hope for us to enjoy even a little of this beautiful art form together.

And, for those who responded saying modestly dressed women cannot be found in modern opera (i.e. it's just the nature of the game) - thank you as well. Except for some of the (apparently) rare exceptions that the 7 or so members posted, you seem to be right on. This is a bit discouraging, but I'm keeping a list.

As for those who question why in the world I would even care about modesty in opera, etc: I had no intention of starting a debate, but I thought - if they really want to know, here goes. I am *not* saying I would automatically allow our kids to see murder/theft/lying/etc in operas (no, it would have to be case by case basis). But I do think it is much easier to _prepare _ our boys for such things by talking about the plot before we watch the opera. But immodesty in dress, or sexual actions/plots are very different - you can't "reason these away". Once seen/imagined, they simply do their thing. That 'thing' is to either excite the passions (in a bad way), or to at least get us more and more used to slipping standards. And that's a bad thing. Male biology hasn't changed, and Hollywood knows this very well. That's why there's immodesty and sexual plots/innuendos, etc. in just about every film they produce - its a cheap sell. But opera! It doesn't need this sort of thing. The orchestra alone is gorgeous, much less the singing, stage and librettos! I look at the men in just about classic opera I pull up on youtube - dressed to the hilt. Almost without exception the women show cleavage/lots of flesh. I can't believe women put up with it. It just shouts the lie: "Your beautiful voice and acting - no matter how good - are not enough for us." To act like immodesty in operatic dress is just some set of vanilla standards that have evolved makes no sense to me - it's there for a reason - sex sells. All this just seems to cheapen the noble thing that opera is, and to cheapen the actresses themselves. So our family does not watch tv for this very reason (not to mention tons of gore, stupid plots, wasted time, on and on). Florestan says it so well - toss the tv! And not just for the sake of the children but also us adults.

Anyway, that's our family's 2 cents. I hope I've offended noone.
Thank you again!
Dean


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

deanandmichelle said:


> As for those who question why in the world I would even care about modesty in opera, etc: I had no intention of starting a debate, but I thought - if they really want to know, here goes. I am *not* saying I would automatically allow our kids to see murder/theft/lying/etc in operas (no, it would have to be case by case basis). But I do think it is much easier to _prepare _ our boys for such things by talking about the plot before we watch the opera. But immodesty in dress, or sexual actions/plots are very different - you can't "reason these away". Once seen/imagined, they simply do their thing. That 'thing' is to either excite the passions (in a bad way), or to at least get us more and more used to slipping standards. And that's a bad thing. Male biology hasn't changed, and Hollywood knows this very well. That's why there's immodesty and sexual plots/innuendos, etc. in just about every film they produce - its a cheap sell. But opera! It doesn't need this sort of thing. The orchestra alone is gorgeous, much less the singing, stage and librettos! I look at the men in just about classic opera I pull up on youtube - dressed to the hilt. Almost without exception the women show cleavage/lots of flesh. I can't believe women put up with it.  It just shouts the lie: "Your beautiful voice and acting - no matter how good - are not enough for us." To act like immodesty in operatic dress is just some set of vanilla standards that have evolved makes no sense to me - it's there for a reason - sex sells. All this just seems to cheapen the noble thing that opera is, and to cheapen the actresses themselves. So our family does not watch tv for this very reason (not to mention tons of gore, stupid plots, wasted time, on and on). Florestan says it so well - toss the tv! And not just for the sake of the children but also us adults.
> Dean


Amen Brother! Agree 100%. My kids have never watched television. And I have not since I got married in 1989, nor have I gone to the move theater since then. The last time I went to the movie theater I saw was Earnest Saves Christmas, which surely was directed at kids (took a youn boy I was mentoring), but they had to have an immodestly dressed woman in a miniskirt to ruin it.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

*Dean:* I wouldn't have thought of it myself, but that is a good point about not being able to erase a mere visual impression from a child's mind. (I don't have kids, so sometimes these things don't occur to me.) As a lover of classic TV who watches very little current TV, I'd be one of the last people to disagree that standards are slipping. I've also on occasion been slightly uncomfortable watching certain female singers in their "concert dress." An example: I'll never forget the televised Richard Tucker Gala (that's a concert the Metropolitan Opera does every year) of about 15 years ago where a certain soprano with an exquisite voice and communicative gift was practically falling out of her evening gown. I don't think she meant to be immodest; she probably just didn't realize that the act of singing would tend to make her "pop out" of her dress. Still, it was a distraction that neither she nor the audience needed, which I think is the general point you're making.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Dean: I truly thought you were just making a joke. I never dreamed that your post was on the up and up. But after reading your latest post I see that you, indeed, meant your words, and that is certainly your right -- to express your beliefs and raise your children as you think is the best way for them.
So, my apologies for taking lightly what you obviously were being serious about.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Totally with you Dean.
Children are robbed of their innocence way to early.
Your kids are lucky to have you.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deanandmichelle said:


> I look at the men in just about classic opera I pull up on youtube - dressed to the hilt. Almost without exception the women show cleavage/lots of flesh. I can't believe women put up with it. It just shouts the lie: "Your beautiful voice and acting - no matter how good - are not enough for us."
> Dean


Well Dean, I suspect you have only watched a few "traditional" productions. I've lost count of the number of male bare chests and more that I've seen in opera DVDs (vide Ercole sul Termondonte, a real test of keeping your eyes above waist level while muttering ferociously "don't look at at, listen to his singing, oh dear the singing's not that great, nooo, don't look at it)" .


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
> 
> Oh, come on! She's charming in a hideous-sort-of-way; whereas I'm hideous in a charming-sort-of-way---- hardly the same thing.
> 
> ...











The sisters are pretty similar. But then, similarity by definition implies difference. So the question is: _Who wore it best?
_
Zsa Zsa clearly has that Countess-realness going on.

-- She gets my vote.

Birds of a feather.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> View attachment 47602
> 
> 
> The sisters are pretty similar. But then, similarity by definition implies difference. So the question is: _Who wore it best?
> ...


That's not Zsa Zsa.
That's Elke Sommer, no?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

View attachment 47602




> Marschallin Blair: The sisters are pretty similar. But then, similarity by definition implies difference. So the question is: Who wore it best?
> 
> Zsa Zsa clearly has that Countess-realness going on.
> 
> ...


Elke never looked so good!

- Yeah, its Zsa Zsa.

http://galawallpapers.net/desktop/77319/Zsa-Zsa-Gabor-wallpaper


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> View attachment 47602
> 
> 
> Elke never looked so good!
> ...


Sorry, I don't think so.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

"Search Google for this image," courtesy of Google Chrome browser:
http://www.elkesommeronline.com/en/art.htm
Just didn't look like Zsa Zsa.

So now that the mystery is solved, we can get back on track.

I would like to hear of any good operas that deanandmichelle may discover. As for me, I do love the Abbado conducted La Cenerentola (Cinderella) which I discussed in an earlier post. I also considered Boris Godunov, but it does have the murder. The only other one I might consider is La Sonnambula (The Sleepwalker) by Bellini, but it does have the accusation of adultery, albeit false, so nothing bad or immoral really happens. Probably not suitable for kids in that respect (especially since the accusation stems from the sleepwalking woman wandering into a man's room and laying on his bed), but I think there are productions that meed the modest dress considerations. Haven't researched it much yet.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

No way is that Zsa Zsa. (she wishes...)


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## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

Though I have nothing against the Gabor sisters, I'm more interested in the operas. For kids, I'd recommend two of Menotti's operas, Amahl and the Night Visitors, and Help! Help! the Globolinks. Or, The Boy who Grew too Fast, which I have not heard. They were specifically written with kinds in mind.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2014)

The Devils Of Loudun is another one about mostly nuns and priests


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## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

I eschew most commercial TV, not because I am offended by shoulders and ba-zooms, but because the content is so puerile (including commercials, which I mute) so as to insult the intelligence. As for kids and opera, IMHO, the themes of the operas I enjoy (bel canto and Verdi and Puccini) are quite adult. It was Donizetti who said to a librettist, "give me love but make it violent love..." (I don't have the exact quote in front of me). I expect that the resultant operas, which were the adult entertainment of the times, were not considered fare for kids (if folks back then ever evaluated operas in such terms). Costuming such dramas is not likely to reflect conservative views of exposure.

But one wonders why the emphasis on female exposure? Is this some form of subtle sexism? Should there be a universal costuming standard? 

Or might we view each opera on its theatrical merits, without imposing some form of censorship?


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

arcaneholocaust said:


> The Devils Of Loudun is another one about mostly nuns and priests


Yes, with a nice plot about demonic possession.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

arcaneholocaust said:


> The Devils Of Loudun is another one about mostly nuns and priests


Naughty arcaneholocaust!:lol:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Now I can't remember for the life of me whether there were any shoulders showing, but my kid also loved this:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

There is a modern accessible opera for children by Jonathan Dove:










And this is a truly magical production of l'enfant et les sortileges


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

JohnGerald said:


> I eschew most commercial TV, not because I am offended by shoulders and ba-zooms, but because the content is so puerile (including commercials, which I mute) so as to insult the intelligence. As for kids and opera, IMHO, the themes of the operas I enjoy (bel canto and Verdi and Puccini) are quite adult. It was Donizetti who said to a librettist, "give me love but make it violent love..." (I don't have the exact quote in front of me). I expect that the resultant operas, which were the adult entertainment of the times, were not considered fare for kids (if folks back then ever evaluated operas in such terms). Costuming such dramas is not likely to reflect conservative views of exposure.
> 
> But one wonders why the emphasis on female exposure? Is this some form of subtle sexism? Should there be a universal costuming standard?
> 
> Or might we view each opera on its theatrical merits, without imposing some form of censorship?


I couldn't agree with you more about current commercial TV! Not only does it tend to condone rude and crass, thoughtless behavior, it's just so insipid, especially "reality TV." People who watch this stuff and have never been to an opera or play, or seen classic TV shows like "The Twilight Zone," don't know what they're missing. Yes, there's violence, etc. in operas and plays and even in the plots of old programs, but the way it's presented is not nearly so crude, IMO.

I'm guessing the reason female exposure is such an issue is simply because men's clothing doesn't have the same potential to be revealing as women's does. I mean, I have yet to see an opera costume for a man that I'd call "immodest." Even bare male chests are, it seems, generally accepted in Western society.

If I'm reading Dean's last post correctly, one point it made is that it's hard to erase a purely visual impression from a child's mind, whereas things like plot violence or immorality can more easily be explained away -- e.g. "Well, Rigoletto allowed his obsession with revenge to get the better of him," or "Florestan had to suffer as he did in order for good to win in the end." Getting back to costumes, I personally think there's such a thing as _tasteful_ exposure; for example, Renee Fleming's dresses in Act III of EUGENE ONEGIN have the typical low-cut bodices of the period but look just the opposite of trashy or cheap. That is to say, they look that way to _me_ -- but then, I'm a grown adult, not a child, and am looking at them from an adult perspective.


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## deanandmichelle (Jul 27, 2014)

mamascarlatti said:


> Now I can't remember for the life of me whether there were any shoulders showing, but my kid also loved this:


Thanks for the idea for L'Elisir d'Amore! I could not find the version you posted online, but here's what appears to be a different and wonderfully modest production of it (But...the quality - well you decide): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=i_VtJxGLZ04#t=4142 I'd pay handsomely to bring our family to operas with modesty like that, yet with a bit higher quality. But quality aside, this version is on my list.

Thanks again.
Dean


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## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

It's available from amazon.com for around 12.00 from sellers like Marvelio. I have it and it fits within your limitations.


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## zombywoof (May 13, 2014)

deanandmichelle said:


> Hollywood knows this very well. That's why there's immodesty and sexual plots/innuendos, etc. in just about every film they produce - its a cheap sell. But opera! It doesn't need this sort of thing.


Perhaps you don't realize that when many operas were produced, they were essentially the equivalent of Hollywood entertainment in their day - sexual plots/innuendos of all sorts (not to mention plenty of violence) are extremely common in the repertoire.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deanandmichelle said:


> Thanks for the idea for L'Elisir d'Amore! I could not find the version you posted online, but here's what appears to be a different and wonderfully modest production of it (But...the quality - well you decide): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=i_VtJxGLZ04#t=4142 I'd pay handsomely to bring our family to operas with modesty like that, yet with a bit higher quality. But quality aside, this version is on my list.
> 
> Thanks again.
> Dean


Well, I have to say the tenor is painful to the ears. But if female modesty (I confess that as a female I REALLY hate that word, it seems to me it's usually used to keep women in their place) is more important than music quality, so be it.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Bellinilover said:


> I'm guessing the reason female exposure is such an issue is simply because men's clothing doesn't have the same potential to be revealing as women's does. I mean, I have yet to see an opera costume for a man that I'd call "immodest." Even bare male chests are, it seems, generally accepted in Western society.


So are bare shoulders and mild décolleté. And I'm pretty sure that the bare chests are there to titillate the straight women and gay men in the audience.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

mamascarlatti said:


> Well, I have to say the tenor is painful to the ears. But if female modesty (I confess that as a female I REALLY hate that word, it seems to me it's usually used to keep women in their place) is more important than music quality, so be it.


I confess I have about as much liking for the term 'female modesty' as does this lady for terms_ she _doesn't like--- like say, 'astrology,' 'gargoyles,' and 'Lorenzo Da Ponte libretti':


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I confess I have about as much liking for the term 'female modesty' as does this lady for terms_ she _doesn't like--- like say, 'astrology,' 'gargoyles,' and 'Lorenzo Da Ponte libretti':...


I would suggest we simply say modest dress which is applicable to men and women. Here is an interesting presentation on modesty and the bikini. I won't go to the public beach because of the inappropriateness of modern swim suits. And in my opinion, men should not go out in public without a shirt on--not even to mow the lawn.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I confess I have about as much liking for the term 'female modesty' as does this lady for terms_ she _doesn't like--- like say, 'astrology,' 'gargoyles,' and 'Lorenzo Da Ponte libretti':
> 
> Darling, we're getting schtuck on another tangerine (tangent).


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Well, I have to say the tenor is painful to the ears.


he's terrible.............


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I would suggest we simply say modest dress which is applicable to men and women. Here is an interesting presentation on modesty and the bikini. I won't go to the public beach because of the inappropriateness of modern swim suits. And in my opinion, men should not go out in public without a shirt on--not even to mow the lawn.


And _who_, pray tell, will be the arbiters of what's suitably-appropriate for _others_ to wear on public beaches? The people at www.churchleaders.com ?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I confess I have about as much liking for the term 'female modesty' as does this lady for terms_ she _doesn't like--- like say, 'astrology,' 'gargoyles,' and 'Lorenzo Da Ponte libretti':
> 
> marinasabina: Darling, we're getting schtuck on another tangerine (tangent).


And Love?-- I can't oblige getting schtupped by another crucifix.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

My bad, my bad for talking about modesty. Let's keep on track and recommend some good operas for these kids.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> he's terrible.............


At the recent Lexus song quest in Auckland we had a 23-year-old who would have done an infinitely better job than this guy. (he also managed the 9 high Cs in Ah mes amis).


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Well, I have to say the tenor is painful to the ears. But if female modesty (I confess that as a female I REALLY hate that word, it seems to me it's usually used to keep women in their place) is more important than music quality, so be it.


But this is making a subjective judgment sound like a self-evident truth; what you really mean is that he's painful to _your_ ears. Many people, professional critics included, say just the opposite about Villazon's singing in the performance (which I'll admit I've never seen, though I have certainly enjoyed Villazon in other things). Just because his Nemorino doesn't please some doesn't mean it's objectively bad. Thus it's possible that the OP will like it _and_ the costumes.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> Many people, professional critics included, say just the opposite about Villazon's singing in the performance (which I'll admit I've never seen, though I have certainly enjoyed Villazon in other things).


are we all talking about the same performance? I thought mamascarlatti was talking about the chap in the clip dean posted.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Bellinilover said:


> But this is making a subjective judgment sound like a self-evident truth; what you really mean is that he's painful to _your_ ears. Many people, professional critics included, say just the opposite about Villazon's singing in the performance (which I'll admit I've never seen, though I have certainly enjoyed Villazon in other things). Just because his Nemorino doesn't please some doesn't mean it's objectively bad. Thus it's possible that the OP will like it _and_ the costumes.


What I mean is that the guy in the clip IS objectively bad: his intonation is suspect, his voice forced and his tone is grossly uneven. Villazon also has some unevenness of tone and a tendency to scoop up to the note rather than hit it cleanly, but overall he is a pretty fair singer and he make a charming goofy Nemorino. And he can juggle (it's the fun of this production that appealed to my daughter).

If you are going to introduce children to opera, I think it is fair that it should be sung to a minimum standard.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> And _who_, pray tell, will be the arbiters of what's suitably-appropriate for _others_ to wear on public beaches? The people at www.churchleaders.com ?


Just for clarification. I know nothing about the site churchleaders.com and therefore could not recommend it for anything other than to view the video.

The courts determine what is publically acceptable dress for public places. Private beaches can set their own standards.

Anyhow, back to opera discussion.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> What I mean is that the guy in the clip IS objectively bad: his intonation is suspect, his voice forced and his tone is grossly uneven. Villazon also has some unevenness of tone and a tendency to scoop up to the note rather than hit it cleanly, but overall he is a pretty fair singer and he make a charming goofy Nemorino. And he can juggle (it's the fun of this production that appealed to my daughter).
> 
> If you are going to introduce children to opera, I think it is fair that it should be sung to a minimum standard.


So sorry -- I hadn't realized we were talking about two different clips. I thought Villazon was the tenor in Dean's clip and that that's who you were calling "bad." I can't listen to the non-Villazon clip as I'm in the library, but judging by the video it appears to be some sort of amateur production (?)


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Just for clarification. I know nothing about the site churchleaders.com and therefore could not recommend it for anything other than to view the video.
> 
> The courts determine what is publically acceptable dress for public places. Private beaches can set their own standards.
> 
> Anyhow, back to opera discussion.


I only felt impelled to mention it because_ you _cited it as a source:



> Originally Posted by Florestan I would suggest we simply say modest dress which is applicable to men and women. Here is an interesting presentation on http://www.churchleaders.com/worship/worship-videos/168690-q-ideas-the-evolution-of-the-swimsuit.html"]modesty and the bikini. I won't go to the public beach because of the inappropriateness of modern swim suits. And in my opinion, men should not go out in public without a shirt on--not even to mow the lawn.


But 'yes,' cheers-- back to opera.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> What I mean is that the guy in the clip IS objectively bad: his intonation is suspect, his voice forced and his tone is grossly uneven. Villazon also has some unevenness of tone and a tendency to scoop up to the note rather than hit it cleanly, but overall he is a pretty fair singer and he make a charming goofy Nemorino. And he can juggle (it's the fun of this production that appealed to my daughter).
> 
> If you are going to introduce children to opera, I think it is fair that it should be sung to a minimum standard.


I listened to it last night. Yeah the guy, whoever he was, did sound very amateurish.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2014)

I find it admirable that dean is trying to expose his kids to opera in the most uplifting way possible. Yes, a great many operas either already have themes that you might not want to expose children to, or modern adaptations may show a bit too much skin, but it is good to know that there are kid-friendly options.

As to those who question why such an effort would be made to shelter kids - there is a limitless effort out there to expose people to such things. Yes, eventually when these kids grow up they will be exposed to them, most likely. But why not let them be kids for now, and retain that innocence? Why do we have to force them to grow up so quickly? It seems that, by and large, earlier exposure to sexualized imagery and topics has had far more negative than positive effects - experimenting with sex at even younger ages, teenage pregnancies, spreading STDs, etc. I am glad to know that there are parents out there who take their responsibility as parents as seriously as dean seems to.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DrMike said:


> I find it admirable that dean is trying to expose his kids to opera in the most uplifting way possible. Yes, a great many operas either already have themes that you might not want to expose children to, or modern adaptations may show a bit too much skin, but it is good to know that there are kid-friendly options.
> 
> As to those who question why such an effort would be made to shelter kids - there is a limitless effort out there to expose people to such things. Yes, eventually when these kids grow up they will be exposed to them, most likely. But why not let them be kids for now, and retain that innocence? Why do we have to force them to grow up so quickly? It seems that, by and large, earlier exposure to sexualized imagery and topics has had far more negative than positive effects - experimenting with sex at even younger ages, teenage pregnancies, spreading STDs, etc. I am glad to know that there are parents out there who take their responsibility as parents as seriously as dean seems to.


Quite aside from there being no grounding in fact for your assertions, are you really suggesting that a young child seeing a historically correct production of, say *La Traviata*, in which the women wear traditional crinolines with bare shoulders and show a bit of cleavage will scar them for life?


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Quite aside from there being no grounding in fact for your assertions, are you really suggesting that a young child seeing a historically correct production of, say *La Traviata*, in which the women wear traditional crinolines with bear shoulders and show a bit of cleavage will scar them for life?


Are you somehow suggesting that just because something is historically correct, it is somehow pure and innocent? La Traviata wouldn't be subject matter for children anyways. Will it scar them for life? I don't know. And neither do you. But when it comes to kids - and yes, I have kids of my own - I would rather err on the side of caution. Just as with movies these days, there are operas that are more appropriate for adult audiences than kids. Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's List were historically correct productions of movies dealing with real events - some might even say important events. I wouldn't let my kids watch them, though. The question is does the benefits of viewing the opera outweigh any potential downsides? I say no - not where kids are concerned. So if you are showing it to kids, by all means only show them the ones that are appropriate for their age. A child doesn't need to see an opera that deals with a courtesan torn between lovers, unto death.

And ultimately it comes down to what a parent deems the most responsible course of action. If dean does not want to expose his children to such things, that is his call. And he was just seeking operas and productions that fit with what he felt was appropriate for his children. The benefits of being introduced to opera at an early age through innocent and non-sexualized operas far outweigh any downside of not viewing operas of a more mature nature and/or with more sexualized imagery until later in their lives.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DrMike said:


> Are you somehow suggesting that just because something is historically correct, it is somehow pure and innocent? La Traviata wouldn't be subject matter for children anyways. Will it scar them for life? I don't know. And neither do you. But when it comes to kids - and yes, I have kids of my own - I would rather err on the side of caution. Just as with movies these days, there are operas that are more appropriate for adult audiences than kids. Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's List were historically correct productions of movies dealing with real events - some might even say important events. I wouldn't let my kids watch them, though. The question is does the benefits of viewing the opera outweigh any potential downsides? I say no - not where kids are concerned. So if you are showing it to kids, by all means only show them the ones that are appropriate for their age. A child doesn't need to see an opera that deals with a courtesan torn between lovers, unto death.
> 
> And ultimately it comes down to what a parent deems the most responsible course of action. If dean does not want to expose his children to such things, that is his call. And he was just seeking operas and productions that fit with what he felt was appropriate for his children. The benefits of being introduced to opera at an early age through innocent and non-sexualized operas far outweigh any downside of not viewing operas of a more mature nature and/or with more sexualized imagery until later in their lives.


Some would rather "err on the side of caution" when dealing with adult themes in operas like _La Traviata_. . . 'in the interests of the children.'

Sounds sensible enough.

_Mutatis mutandis_, if one were to be consistent in one's reasoning--- and not allow one's children to see_ La Traviata_ or, as mentioned in the posting above (and incidentally off-topic): _Saving Private Ryan_--- perhaps the crimes, terrors, and repressions of the Good Book-- which far exceed those of (the aforementioned and off-topic) _Saving Private Ryan_ shouldn't be discussed at the dinner table either. . . 'in the interests of the children.'


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2014)

I don't get why it is such a horrible thing to not want to expose one's children to certain topics and imagery. What exactly is the goal for those of you who take exception to what dean is asking? Hell - why not just let the kids watch a production of Salome with her going full frontal during the dance of the seven veils - it's all historical, isn't it? An actual dancer doing that dance would strip down, and if that is reality, how could that be bad for the kids?

The point here is no to try and catch someone in some kind of inconsistency - for crying out loud, the guy just wants to find some more operas that he feels comfortable letting his kids watch. Hell, how many people encourage their kids to watch opera at all? Maybe he should just let them be raised on the insipid melodies of Justin Bieber?

I get it, Blair, you think the Bible is bad. What the hell does that have to do with the topic? Or do you just want to poke fun at the Bible-readers for outdated notions like morality, and for having the nerve to want to protect their children?


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2014)

And incidentally, there is a world of difference between educating your child on certain things and letting them view graphic depictions of those things. My child can learn what murder is and how horrible it is through being taught about it, or witnessing it. Clearly the two instruct equally, but witnessing the act will be far more detrimental. 

Children can learn things about sexuality at a pace and in a manner of their parents' choosing - that doesn't mean they need to see depictions of it. There are responsible and safe ways of introducing such things to kids, and irresponsible and potentially damaging ways. By choosing to not allow them see sexual imagery does not mean that a parent is never going to instruct their children on the subject - but an opera probably isn't the best way to do it. Or a movie.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

This comment is not directed specifically at deanandmichelle, but it must be noted. A child's perspective of appropriate clothing is largely dependent on the perspectives and *reactions* of the parents. Most children are not "scarred for life" or even sexually aroused when an adult shows a little more skin than the parents approve, unless the parent habitually points out the faux pas, and explains the (supposed) implication (with an over-emotional tone of voice).

I have a close friend whose shoulders I want to grab and shake because she has already trained her two children to take special notice *every* time they see a woman's breasts or belly, even in a non-sexual context, i.e. a workout video in which the women wear fitness attire, or a woman walking down the street minding her own business.

At the tender ages of 7 and 4, she has robbed them of their innocence, only in a different way.


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## deanandmichelle (Jul 27, 2014)

marinasabina said:


> I have a close friend whose shoulders I want to grab and shake because she has already trained her two children to take special notice *every* time they see a woman's breasts or belly, even in a non-sexual context, i.e. a workout video in which the women wear fitness attire, or a woman walking down the street minding her own business. ... At the tender ages of 7 and 4, she has robbed them of their innocence, only in a different way.


Hello all. Thank you as well to those who have defended my question. And, thanks to all who have suggested additional operas since my last post. I am checking them all out as I get time and I hope to post a list when I am done. By the way, another friend mentioned that recitals by Cecilia Bartoli are generally modest (even if they are not full operas).

In my naivety, I guess I truly live in a different world from some on this forum. For those who are sincerely confused about my concerns about modesty, below are some principles I hold. Please notice, I never mention the Bible (although it is certainly a great source of Truth for our family!). No, most of these points come from natural philosophy - I am thinking in particular of Aristotle's _Nichomachean Ethics_ (which I loved):

If you disagree with any of these, let me know where:

1. We are creatures of habit. Bad habits form very quickly and almost effortlessly; good habits take much more work.

2. It is impossible that wealth, sense pleasures, and even health constitute man's happiness. *A man is happy only insofar as he is virtuous* - moral and especially intellectual virtue.

3. But self-control, chastity, temperance, modesty are all virtues. Therefore, without them one cannot be truly happy.

4. Vices and virtues begin with small acts, and grow by repeated acts. Since we control those acts, we (or those who look after us) are responsible for the beginnings and growth of our vices and virtues.

5. But the more one sees evil, the more one is desensitized to it. The next time, he will be a little less horrified of it, and so on, until he is completely habitualized to it. In fact, one can even begin to consider evil as normal and good. So, serious damage can be done to a child long before he is capable of sexual arousal by habituation/desensitization. Then, once puberty hits, that child has little or no natural horror (aversion) to immodesty/impurity/fornication/adultery/sexual themes, having already seen ten zillion images - even "mild ones", or heard so much talk, in his short 13 year career. The seeds of vice are there already. It is only natural that his behavior follows suit when the urges begin. He hasn't formed any virtues to fight the biology, because he's never done the repeated small acts necessary to form it. And, it's basically a guarantee he's going to be unhappy insofar as he is weak or vice (vicious).

6. As a general rule, the sex drive in men is much more powerful than that of women (although there are individual exceptions). All of nature shouts this truth. In fact, male biology is like dry straw near a match (more or less, again depending on the individual). Therefore, the virtues of chastity, temperance, self-control are that much more critical for men than women. That is also why it is so important that women dress modestly - they have the power to ruin men (and their own happiness while at it).

7. This one isn't from philosophy: Women are in a way sacred. Not only are they the source of new human life, but also guide the development of our young children. It's clear then that individual and societal welfare depends on how well they do their job. Therefore a homemaker's job in itself, is much more important than a breadwinner's (when viewed simply, as breadwinner).

If you agree to at least the first 6 principles, I think I could further show you that seeing even partially bare breasts/cracks and even shoulders and arms (other than that of your wife) is usually harmful to virtue, and therefore to your happiness. So, as Florestan said, immodest operas are not only bad for the kids, they are bad for us men too. Playrights, directors, pornographers soft and hard all know how much images effect us. All this makes me very surprised that others express surprise/confusion by my original request for modest opera titles. I ask not just for my four boys, but also for myself - and I think I'm no different biologically than other men.

Dean


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Dean I respect and understand your point of view. I cant say I agree though. Items 6 and 7 seem to include a few misogynistic stereotypes but good luck anyway! Your taking a hard route in todays society.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Well, much as I would like to debate you, I feel that we are going rather off topic. Let's keep on with the opera suggestions.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The suggestion that men cannot control their own desires I find laughable. Of course Artistotle was writing for a very different society, one in which women had very few rights. They were certainly not considered the equal of men. Some women rose to prominence in Greek society certainly, but, like Phyrne, they were hetaira, courtesans.

We are falling back on the old, dangerous, argument that, if a woman dresses immodestly, then she is inviting rape. The problem with Aristotle's philosophy is that ultimately it leads to the veil and the burqa. I'd argue, on the other hand, that children brought up in a society and family where nudity is normalised, and sex is just a part of life, will have far fewer problems with sex in later life. Repression is what creates problems.

Go to any nudist beach in Europe. You will see families with their children, the children playing innocently in the sea, completely unaware of any sexual connotation nudity might have. Interestingly in those European countries that have a very relaxed attitude to nudity, where sex education is taught from an early age (Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden etc), they also have very low rates of teenage pregnancies and STDs among young people.

Aristotle makes some good points about desensitising, but it is the desensitising of people to violence that worries me. Television is able to show all sorts of violence and murder before the 9 o'clock watershed, but God forbid you show a naked breast or buttock, or a loving couple in bed.

marinasabina makes good points too. I was taken to see *La Traviata* at a very young age. I hadn't a clue what it was about, my mother having given me a very watered-down version of the plot no doubt, but I loved the music, the singing, the women in their gorgeous frocks. The leading lady looked more like a fairy princess to me. She was no doubt dressed rather as Callas is dressed in my avatar. I really don't think it scarred me for life, but you may think differently.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

The logical solution to this conundrum is of course to recommend operas *without any female role at all*. Then, we offer a neat and elegant way to avoid tackling this difficult question about what is "modesty" in a female's dress, on an operatic stage. 

Benjamin Britten's "Billy Budd" comes to mind. I will request also immediate release of Peter Maxwell Davies's "The Lighthouse" in DVD. Little by little...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

schigolch said:


> The logical solution to this conundrum is of course to recommend operas *without any female role at all*. Then, we offer a neat and elegant way to avoid tackling this difficult question about what is "modesty" in a female's dress, on an operatic stage.
> 
> Benjamin Britten's "Billy Budd" comes to mind. I will request also immediate release of Peter Maxwell Davies's "The Lighthouse" in DVD. Little by little...


But then is the theme of *Billy Budd* acceptable? After all there is a strong suggestion that latent homosexual desire is the root of Claggart's desire to ruin Billy.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I kind of think schigolch was kidding.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> bear shoulders [...] will scar them for life?


they might  j/k


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> a strong suggestion that latent homosexual desire


it'll go right over the kids' heads.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

deggial said:


> they might  j/k


Haha. Point taken ... and duly edited.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

deggial said:


> it'll go right over the kids' heads.


Just like the fact of Violetta's being a prostitute went right over mine when I was a child.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> The suggestion that men cannot control their own desires I find laughable. Of course Artistotle was writing for a very different society, one in which women had very few rights. They were certainly not considered the equal of men. Some women rose to prominence in Greek society certainly, but, like Phyrne, they were hetaira, courtesans.
> 
> We are falling back on the old, dangerous, argument that, if a woman dresses immodestly, then she is inviting rape. The problem with Aristotle's philosophy is that ultimately it leads to the veil and the burqa. I'd argue, on the other hand, that children brought up in a society and family where nudity is normalised, and sex is just a part of life, will have far fewer problems with sex in later life. Repression is what creates problems.
> 
> ...


I would be curious as to how many people in said European countries go to nude beaches before we draw any conclusions on its impact in general on sexual attitudes. And sex education is not the same as exposing children to sexual imagery.

And if repression leads to more problems, why do we tend towards more repressive and regulatory governments? Wouldn't a more hands off approach by government, then, be a better approach? But I digress.

At any rate, all of that is irrelevant. Dean has chosen to raise his children in a way different from what you are describing. That is his choice. He has laid out his reasoning. It is his choice. If someone were to come in to a restaurant, say that they don't drink alcoholic beverages, and then ask for recommendations of non-alcoholic drinks, would you recommend him a drink or criticize his choice to not drink alcohol? It is his choice, and it really has no impact on you in any imaginable way. He is not telling you, or anybody else here, how you should raise your children. He is asking for assistance in selecting operatic productions that conform to a set of criteria he has determined best for his children. That is it. Whether or not people go nude at the beach in front of children has absolutely no bearing.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I teach in an urban school district, so on a daily basis I see the results of absent parenting or poor parenting so I respect the desire to be active in controlling what is or is not appropriate for a child (to a certain age)... but I certainly question cloistering children and women as if we were living in Iran.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Getting back to operas: I feel _La Traviata_ is a definite possibility for children of a certain age -- say 11, 12, or 13. In explaining the plot, one doesn't really have to mention that Violetta is a courtesan; one only has to convey the idea that she's someone who lived a "pleasure"-filled life that didn't make her truly happy, and that in giving up that life for Alfredo she makes the time she has left on earth much more meaningful, because for once she experiences true love, even though it ultimately entails sacrifice (i.e. the promise she makes to Germont). There's a lovely, traditional production on DVD from La Fenice in Venice that stars Edita Gruberova, Neil Schicoff, and Giorgio Zancanaro.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Sorry guys, I knew this was going to slide totally off-topic into religion. Please remember that religious discussion per se is confined to the social groups.

This thread is closed for repairs.


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