# Definitive performances



## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

They do exist. One such is Giulini's Dvorak 7. It's a live performance recorded in 1973 with the Berlin Philharmonic. It's available on Testament. Nobody, I repeat, nobody has made as much sense of the last movement the way Giulini did that day.
There's a wonderful Khovanschina Prelude to start the concert, a performance of the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto with Kyung Wha Chung.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

They exist only if there are definitive classical music fans in my opinion. However I will check out this Giulini performance.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Some of the Bartok Fricsay recorded maybe qualifies, like this:






Much of Klemperer's Brahms.

Still glad people are making recordings of these works in newer sound though.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Sofronitsky's recordings of Chopin's op. 28 preludes. It's no exaggeration that almost all of my favorite interpretations of these preludes were by Sofronitsky. Not to mention that he is simply on another level of his own for me with most everything of Scriabin's that he played. Last, but not least, this interpretation of Liszt's B minor sonata has so many memorable moments in it, just listening to it again provokes nostalgic recollections of my surroundings and what it was like the first times I heard it, and when it is over I am always disappointed to the point of honestly feeling a little crestfallen for a moment.

Cortot similarly typifies Chopin's ballades for me. Barenboim typifies Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words. Gieseking bring Debussy to life for me like no other. The last honorable mention for a pianist here, Egon Petri, is definitive for me with practically everything Liszt, Alkan, and Busoni that he played.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Apart from the fact that it is totally subjective, it would be extremely depressing if there was such a thing as a 'definitive performance' because it would mean that we couldn't look forward to something even better.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Becca said:


> Apart from the fact that it is totally subjective, it would be extremely depressing if there was such a thing as a 'definitive performance' because it would mean that we couldn't look forward to something even better.


I'm inclined to agree in principle. Then I listen to Watts playing Rachmaninov's Corelli Variations and think "Nope, can't imagine anyone improving on that". I guess a 'definitive' performance is one against which we tend to assess others, in which case it will be highly subjective. My 'definitive' Beethoven 4th piano concerto would be Gilels with Sanderling and the Leningrad Phil, but I can understand that others would find Gilels' tempi a bit too exaggerated. So we have our personal 'definitive' performances, but yes, we certainly must be open to the possibility of being pleasantly surprised one day.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

I don't re-hear interpretations generally. I go out and about hearing others do it. Could be mono or the latest 5.1 Petatone sound. Doesn't matter. 

But I still consider Karajan's Beethoven and Bruckner #3 from 1980s as extremely good.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

The idea is frankly silly, especially in repertoire that has been recorded dozens of times. I have the Giulini Dvorak 7th that the OP mentions, and it's nice, but I'll take the Szell or Kubelik versions in modern sound or Talich in mono. Perhaps the OP could elucidate why he thinks it is superior to the several dozen other versions that have been recorded, which he has presumably heard and judged to be inferior in order to declare one as 'definitive".


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Becca said:


> Apart from the fact that it is totally subjective, it would be extremely depressing if there was such a thing as a 'definitive performance' because it would mean that we couldn't look forward to something even better.


Very well put, and I agree completely.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

tdc said:


> Some of the Bartok Fricsay recorded maybe qualifies, like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah but others find Bartok's friend Reiner's recordings 'definitive'.

And Toscanini in Brahms.

No such thing as definitive.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Pat Fairlea said:


> I'm inclined to agree in principle. Then I listen to Watts playing Rachmaninov's Corelli Variations and think "Nope, can't imagine anyone improving on that". I guess a 'definitive' performance is one against which we tend to assess others, in which case it will be highly subjective. My 'definitive' Beethoven 4th piano concerto would be Gilels with Sanderling and the Leningrad Phil, but I can understand that others would find Gilels' tempi a bit too exaggerated. So we have our personal 'definitive' performances, but yes, we certainly must be open to the possibility of being pleasantly surprised one day.


Watts has a way of doing that. So many of his performances, especially of Rachmaninov and Schubert, are sentimental for me. That singing tone!


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

I don't know about definitive but I only recently heard Bernstein's Mahler 6 from his first cycle and really enjoyed it. In fact I like all of them on that cycle except 5 (not very good) and 9 (not the style of interpretation I like in this symphony at all). I wish I'd gotten it first rather than Bernstein's later cycle. I know many Mahler fans consider Bernstein to be definitive in Mahler, and largely based on that first cycle's strength.

I love Celibidache's Bruckner 7 but I'm sure I'll be able to move past considering it "definitive" given how idiosyncratic he can be.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Ah but others find Bartok's friend Reiner's recordings 'definitive'.
> 
> And Toscanini in Brahms.
> 
> No such thing as definitive.


Yes, all of you in the 'no such thing as definitive' side are correct. I guess I just don't take such queries quite so literally. If someone says such and such a performance is 'definitive' I generally assume they mean that it is a very insightful performance that set a new standard in excellence - in their subjective view.

I think if individuals could get over the fact the term 'definitive' is an imperfect way of describing such a performance and just list interpretations they personally think are the zenith of such and such a work, (feeling free to mention the caveat that they don't really think "definitive" performances exist) this thread would just be more useful and interesting.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

I like the idea of "definitive" performances because they can fell down, any moment. Ravel's piano concerto in G by François/Cluytens was kind of definitive to me for years. Until I listened to Zimmerman/Boulez rendition, which instead of becoming a new definitive performance showed me that there's no such a thing as I live my listener's life, which is and will be very curious and open to new stuff... until the end.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

For me this is still a: definitive recording"however I get that others wouldn't agree whit that.

​
Just like Mahler 8 by Sir George Solti.
Again other recording are available , so it's a matter of taste I guess


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Anything offered here will merely be the posters' opinions. That said, a few definitive recordings (in my opinion) that come to my mind:

Bartók - Concerto for Orchestra (Chicago SO/Reiner, studio, 1955)
Bartók - String Quartets (Takács Qt, studio, 1997)
Beethoven - Symphonies 5 & 7 (Vienna PO/C Kleiber, 1974 & 1975/76)
Elgar - Cello Concerto (Du Pré/London SO/Barbirolli, studio, 1965)
Mahler - Symphony No 2 (soloists/choirs/Philharmonia O/Klemperer, studio 1961-62)
Monteverdi - Vespers of 1610 (soloists/EBS/Gardiner, studio, 1989)
Prokofiev - Symphony No 5 (Leningrad PO/Rozhdestvensky, live, London, 1971)
Rakhmaninov - Symphonic Dances (Moscow PO/Kondrashin, studio, 1963)
Rakhmaninov - Symphony No 2 (London SO/Rozdestvensky, studio, 1988)
Ravel - Daphnis & Chloë (London SO & Chorus, Monteux, studio, 1959)
Rimsky-Korsakov - Sheherazade (Concertgebouw O/Kondrashin, studio, 1979)
Shostakovich - Symphony No 4 (Moscow PO/Kondrashin, studio, 1962)
Shostakovich - Symphony No 15 (Berlin SO/Sanderling, studio, 1978)
Smetana - Má Vlast (Czech PO/Kubelík, live, Prague, 1990)
Strauss - Ein Heldenleben (Chicago SO/Reiner, studio, 1954)
Stravinsky - The Rite of Spring (Philharmonia O/Markevitch, studio, 1959)
Tchaikovsky - Symphonies 4-6 (Leningrad PO/Mravinsky, studio, 1960)
Verdi - Requiem (soloists/chorus/Philharmonia O/Giulini, studio, 1963-64)
Vivaldi - The Four Seasons (Europa Galante/Biondi, studio, 2000 [Virgin Veritas recording])


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## majlis (Jul 24, 2005)

Don't know any version of Tchaikovsky's piano trio op.50, that Gilels-Kogan-Rostropovich live. And I'm convinced that it can't be bettered.


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## billeames (Jan 17, 2014)

Bruckner TeDeum Karajan 1976 DG
Bruckner 4 Bohm VPO 
Bruckner 8 Karajan VPO
Brahms 1 Ozawa/BSO DG Japan or Levine RCA or Kempe Munich (so many good ones!)
Beethoven Missa Solemnis Bernstein DG (Some may say Klemperer EMI)
Mahler 8 Sinopoli DG. Most would say Solti CSO or Bernstein LSO.
Liszt Dante Symphony Sinopoli
Strauss Alpensinfonie Sinopoli Dresden. 
Rimsky Korsakov Scheherazade Beecham


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Pat Fairlea said:


> I'm inclined to agree in principle. Then I listen to Watts playing Rachmaninov's Corelli Variations and think "Nope, can't imagine anyone improving on that". I guess a 'definitive' performance is one against which we tend to assess others, in which case it will be highly subjective. My 'definitive' Beethoven 4th piano concerto would be Gilels with Sanderling and the Leningrad Phil, but I can understand that others would find Gilels' tempi a bit too exaggerated. So we have our personal 'definitive' performances, but yes, we certainly must be open to the possibility of being pleasantly surprised one day.


I'm a very big fan of both Gilels and Sanderling. Sanderling remains somewhat unappreciated.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Delicious Manager said:


> Anything offered here will merely be the posters' opinions. That said, a few definitive recordings (in my opinion) that come to my mind:
> 
> Bartók - Concerto for Orchestra (Chicago SO/Reiner, studio, 1955)
> Bartók - String Quartets (Takács Qt, studio, 1997)
> ...


Yes, the Berlin Phil Shostakivich 15 is the best of his three official recordings.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Triplets said:


> The idea is frankly silly, especially in repertoire that has been recorded dozens of times. I have the Giulini Dvorak 7th that the OP mentions, and it's nice, but I'll take the Szell or Kubelik versions in modern sound or Talich in mono. Perhaps the OP could elucidate why he thinks it is superior to the several dozen other versions that have been recorded, which he has presumably heard and judged to be inferior in order to declare one as 'definitive".


It's the last movement which convinces me most that this performance is 'definitive'. I have Neumann, Monteux, Giulini EMI, Chung, Inbal, Alsopp, Kubelik, Harnoncourt, Talich, Dohnanyi and Ivan Fischer. None of them makes sense of the last movement the way Giulini does.


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