# Mozart Used a Lot of the Same Resolutions in His Music



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Anyone know what I'm saying? Bach also stole lots of ideas from himself, in a different way than Mozart, but do you all know what I am trying to say?

I am trying to find examples, just listen to the resolution of this theme, it seems Mozart uses that two note resolution in a lot of his music.






With Bach, he used a lot of similar builds in his music:

Just listen to something like the Art of the Fugue, lots of similar intros and builds throughout. And there is something similar about his Brandenburg Concertos that I can't exactly put my finger on and express in words.

In other news, Lang Lang seems to have become a star: I love the commercial he is in, have you all seen it yet?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm in no way complaining either, just trying to eloquently express and discuss the music. I love Mozart and Bach (took a while for me to let Bach into my ears, I used to discard him as not being emotional enough, and too focused on the mathematics behind composition, then I fell in love with his Brandenburg Concertos and that lead to other works from that point).


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Anyone know what I'm saying? Bach also stole lots of ideas from himself, in a different way than Mozart, but do you all know what I am trying to say?
> 
> I am trying to find examples, just listen to the resolution of this theme, it seems Mozart uses that two note resolution in a lot of his music.
> 
> ...


It's why a can't listen to a lot of Mozart's music - I'm just hearing the same chord progressions over and over again.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

janxharris said:


> It's why a can't listen to a lot of Mozart's music - I'm just hearing the same chord progressions over and over again.


That's fair. I still love Mozart, he had many different thematic melodies, just lots of similar resolutions.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> That's fair. I still love Mozart, he had many different thematic melodies, just lots of similar resolutions.


The first movement of his 40 symphony remains a favourite.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

janxharris said:


> The first movement of his 40 symphony remains a favourite.


When I first got into Mozart, the earlier symphonies were easier to stomach, shorter, catchy, fun, and lively. They reminded me of early Beatles music, short, sweet, catchy, happy, and rather poppy. But also like the Beatles, Mozart got much more exploratory in his later works. They 40th and 41st are both fantastic, but I really love all his symphonies that I've heard.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

Yes, the classic trill before the resolution is Mozart's stamp.

But despite this, his genius was that with so little he could do so much. He was a master of form. He could have just two bare voices in the orchestra, with simple harmonies, and make it sound like heaven. No other composer had that, not even Beethoven.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Francis Poulenc said:


> Yes, the classic trill before the resolution is Mozart's stamp.
> 
> But despite this, his genius was that with so little he could do so much. He was a master of form. He could have just two bare voices in the orchestra, with simple harmonies, and make it sound like heaven. No other composer had that, not even Beethoven.


It is noteworthy that Beethoven really didn't seem to borrow from himself at all. His stamp was being very dramatic and brooding (Moonlight Sonata, Eroica) and occasionally beautiful (symphony 6, is this the only "pretty" work by Beethoven?). But again, he really didn't seem to have a musical theme in his music, at all.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It is noteworthy that Beethoven really didn't seem to borrow from himself at all. His stamp was being very dramatic and brooding (Moonlight Sonata, Eroica) and occasionally beautiful (symphony 6, is this the only "pretty" work by Beethoven?). But again, he really didn't seem to have a musical theme in his music, at all.


When you're younger you go for the big emotional statements. As you get older, you tend to gravitate away from Romanticism. Mozart nowadays speaks to me much more than Beethoven does, and although it took me many years to notice, I think he was the better composer. Without needing any grand climax, he expresses the deepest of emotion with _nothing_, with music that would almost sound banal to many people.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, I make the same resolutions every New Years, year after year . . .


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Francis Poulenc said:


> When you're younger you go for the big emotional statements. As you get older, you tend to gravitate away from Romanticism. Mozart nowadays speaks to me much more than Beethoven does, and although it took me many years to notice, I think he was the better composer. Without needing any grand climax, he expresses the deepest of emotion with _nothing_, with music that would almost sound banal to many people.


I think I'll agree Mozart is so simply deep that you can almost miss it. Beethoven is deliberately dramatic and emotional, you know he is at least "trying" to be deep, and arguably successful most of the time in this goal. But Mozart comes off as more effortless than Beethoven, which I think is true of how they composed as well. Definitely not putting one over the other, however. Not yet at least.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MarkW said:


> Well, I make the same resolutions every New Years, year after year . . .


haha, lol! Good one.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Beethoven almost seems inspired by Hell where Mozart seems inspired by heaven. I like looking at it like that! Even Symphony 6 in all it's beauty has a darkness about it. I liken it to a day where Satan is successful in his aspirations!

Whoa, I just blew my mind.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Francis Poulenc said:


> When you're younger you go for the big emotional statements. As you get older, you tend to gravitate away from Romanticism. Mozart nowadays speaks to me much more than Beethoven does, and although it took me many years to notice, I think he was the better composer. Without needing any grand climax, he expresses the deepest of emotion with _nothing_, with music that would almost sound banal to many people.


I'd have to disagree with you. What amazes me about Beethoven's music is that he doesn't always feel the need to "out do" himself or have "grand climaxes".

For example how does he follow up the great appassionata sonata? With the short beautiful little gem the à Thérèse sonata.

The Kreutzer violin sonata is followed up by the equally beautiful and understated violin sonata no. 10 in G.

There are other example like this through out his compositions. Sure he's the composer of the Hammerklavier but he's also the composer of opus 109.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think I'll agree Mozart is so simply deep that you can almost miss it. Beethoven is deliberately dramatic and emotional, you know he is at least "trying" to be deep, and arguably successful most of the time in this goal. But Mozart comes off as more effortless than Beethoven, which I think is true of how they composed as well. Definitely not putting one over the other, however. Not yet at least.
> 
> Beethoven almost seems inspired by Hell where Mozart seems inspired by heaven. I like looking at it like that! Even Symphony 6 in all it's beauty has a darkness about it. I liken it to a day where Satan is successful in his aspirations!


I like this way of putting it. Beethoven makes much more of an effort to sound a certain way, which comes through in his music. Mozart transmits emotions far more effortlessly. Beethoven tries to be dark on purpose, and the few times that Mozart is dark he does it more deeply (as in his Requiem), because everything he wrote was an expression of his utmost inner being, he didn't try to force the emotions into the music like Beethoven too often did.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

arnerich said:


> I'd have to disagree with you. What amazes me about Beethoven's music is that he doesn't always feel the need to "out do" himself or have "grand climaxes".
> 
> For example how does he follow up the great appassionata sonata? With the short beautiful little gem the à Thérèse sonata.
> 
> ...


It's not just about climaxes, it's subtler than that. A lot of his music just has a "forced" quality to it.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Francis Poulenc said:


> It's not just about climaxes, it's subtler than that. A lot of his music just has a "forced" quality to it.


There's nothing forced about à Thérèse I can tell you that. I simply disagree with you. Beethoven's music embodies the human spirit with all of it's struggles but also it's greatness.

After reading some of the posts on this thread I'd think people were confusing Beethoven with Liszt or Scriabin.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

arnerich said:


> There's nothing forced about à Thérèse I can tell you that. I simply disagree with you. Beethoven's music embodies the human spirit with all of it's struggles but also it's greatness.
> 
> After reading some of the posts on this thread I'd think people were confusing Beethoven with Liszt or Scriabin.


I would have disagreed with myself 20 years ago.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

You're going to find "the same chord progressions over and over" in a whole lot of music written over a span of about three hundred years. Mozart's harmony was more varied and surprising than that of any of his contemporaries - though it's often subtle.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

MarkW said:


> Well, I make the same resolutions every New Years, year after year . . .


Very recognizable.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Mozart - Piano Concerto No.23, Adagio (Hélène Grimaud)


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Mozart - Piano Concerto No.23, Adagio (Hélène Grimaud)


Beautiful! I really loved this, thanks for sharing. Performer is attractive as well, I enjoyed watching her mannerisms while she performed, she was into it!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Francis Poulenc said:


> I would have disagreed with myself 20 years ago.


Beethoven did have some pieces that came off as effortless though. Moonlight Sonata (at least the first movement) and the first symphony (at least the first movement again). Fur Elise as well. Those come to mind right away!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Beautiful! I really loved this, thanks for sharing. Performer is attractive as well, I enjoyed watching her mannerisms while she performed, she was into it!


This one seems like a rarity for Mozart, not as predictable. Listening to Mozart Piano Concertos to Beethoven Violin Concertos back to back, I do find Mozart to be repetitive and hard to listen to for extensive periods of time. Beethoven keeps things unpredictable and interesting.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Francis Poulenc said:


> I would have disagreed with myself 20 years ago.


I would be open to the idea that you didn't grow to see it the "right way", but that your taste just changed as you grew. Perhaps that will allow you to admire beethoven again, but maybe not too, and that's ok. Music is all preference, there are no better or worse in music imo.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> This one seems like a rarity for Mozart, not as predictable. Listening to Mozart Piano Concertos to Beethoven Violin Concertos back to back, I do find Mozart to be repetitive and hard to listen to for extensive periods of time. Beethoven keeps things unpredictable and interesting.


Beethoven wrote only a single violin concerto (which is sometimes criticised for being one-paced), so the idea that Mozart's 27 piano concertos are "repetitive" by comparison is a very strange one indeed.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Beethoven wrote only a single violin concerto (which is sometimes criticised for being one-paced), so the idea that Mozart's 27 piano concertos are "repetitive" by comparison is a very strange one indeed.


Admittedly, I didn't know Beethoven only had one Violin Concerto, but even between movements (which are rather long in the Violin Concerto by Beethoven), Mozart gets repetitive. The disc I have has the Beethoven Violin Concerto along with two Romances.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Francis Poulenc said:


> I like this way of putting it. Beethoven makes much more of an effort to sound a certain way, which comes through in his music. Mozart transmits emotions far more effortlessly. Beethoven tries to be dark on purpose, and the few times that Mozart is dark he does it more deeply (as in his Requiem), because everything he wrote was an expression of his utmost inner being, he didn't try to force the emotions into the music like Beethoven too often did.


To continue in this vein, here's the concert pianist Stephen Hough writing about Mozart (and Beethoven):

http://www.stephenhough.com/writings/selective/mozart-salzburg.php


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Kieran said:


> To continue in this vein, here's the concert pianist Stephen Hough writing about Mozart (and Beethoven):
> 
> http://www.stephenhough.com/writings/selective/mozart-salzburg.php


I'm definitely going to read this!


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Kieran said:


> To continue in this vein, here's the concert pianist Stephen Hough writing about Mozart (and Beethoven):
> 
> http://www.stephenhough.com/writings/selective/mozart-salzburg.php


Brilliant stuff. Thanks so much for posting it.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Brilliant stuff. Thanks so much for posting it.


Metaphors make for colorful reviews! We should have a thread where we have a debate completely in metaphors, that would push our creative juices a bit, would it not? I like it!


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