# Round Two:"Mon cœur s'ouvre à ta voix". Ponselle and Anderson



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Ponselle's is recorded in her home 15 years after she retired. With Anderson it is nice to hear a real contralto sing it.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

A strange coupling to me. Ponselle is past her prime and retired yet is accompanied on a piano in her home, and still, there is something about her once superb and powerful voice, although mssing here, that still catches the heart with her rendition.
Anderson doesn't even sound like the Marion Anderson I once saw at the Philadelphia Academy of Music and am accustomed to.
There are better examples of the aria out there but with sentimentality in my heart, it's Rosa.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> A strange coupling to me. Ponselle is past her prime and retired yet is accompanied on a piano in her home, and still, there is something about her once superb and powerful voice, although mssing here, that still catches the heart with her rendition.
> Anderson doesn't even sound like the Marion Anderson I once saw at the Philadelphia Academy of Music and am accustomed to.
> There are better examples of the aria out there but with sentimentality in my heart, it's Rosa.


We all hear with our own ears ( I'm jealous you heard Anderson live!!!) so I am not telling you that you are wrong but Ponselle still sounds wonderful to my ears and is a real artist. For some people a piano accompaniment is a mark against a singer in a contest but my thought is a singer is doing the same thing whether or not an orchestra or piano is playing with them. Just my point of view. Pavarotti sang with her at 80 and said the voice was still intact and wonderful.
I don't always like Anderson but I think she sounds wonderful here. Sometimes her voice can sound choppy but it is smooth and liquid here. You can hear why she was the number one recitalist in the world despite being a woman of color in the mid 20th century.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Off topic but relevant, I really enjoy Scott K and emailed him why he has been absent on the forum and he said he has been very busy lately plus into baseball but plans to start joining in more in the fall. I hope so. He has a unique point of view often.


----------



## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

Back to topic, sort of... 

Klaus Nomi owns this IMO. Perhaps someone more tech savvy than I could post a video of it. Other than that, I've not much else of value to add...


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

If the YouTube video is correct, Marian Anderson was thirty-three when this was recorded, in the vernacular as was the custom then.
Rosa Ponselle was 56 and sounds marvelous, but I can’t think of it as more than a curiosity and, as such, _hors concours. _The voice sounds in superb shape - she reportedly retired in a huff because the Metropolitan Opera refused to mount *Adriana Lecouvreur *for her. Her last performance of a staged opera was in 1937 (*Carmen *on tour). She was 40 years old.


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Though both voices share a similarity, contralto depth, their approaches are very different. Anderson was unjustly denied stage experience so her approach is that of a recitalist singing an aria. Despite the depth of her tone, she does not sound matronly. Ponselle, her tone overall sounds weightier but also more passionate


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> If the YouTube video is correct, Marian Anderson was thirty-three when this was recorded, in the vernacular as was the custom then.
> Rosa Ponselle was 56 and sounds marvelous, but I can’t think of it as more than a curiosity and, as such, _hors concours. _The voice sounds in superb shape - she reportedly retired in a huff because the Metropolitan Opera refused to mount *Adriana Lecouvreur *for her. Her last performance of a staged opera was in 1937 (*Carmen *on tour). She was 40 years old.


I guess I am to go through and delete all contest selections with piano accompaniment as a waste of the forum participants' time. Are art songs allowed with piano? There are also a number of historic aria recordings I've stumbled on with piano accompaniment but I will nix them. I don't understand the prejudice as it is common practice in recitals that I have attended when divas have sung arias and I greatly enjoyed them but I aim to please. I thoroughly enjoyed Ponselle's version but my taste is sometimes less refined than some of you guys. To me it was passionately sung but what do I know. It is not the first time my tastes clash with the group.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I guess I am to go through and delete all contest selections with piano accompaniment as a waste of the forum participant's time? I don't understand the prejudice as it is common practice in recitals that I have attended when divas have sung arias and I greatly enjoyed them but I aim to please. I greatly enjoyed Ponselle's version but my taste is sometimes less refined than some of you guys. To me it was passionately sung but what do I know. It is not the first time my tastes clash with the group.


John:
I think that you misunderstood my post. I want to be sure that you understand that I have absolutely nothing to say bad about Ponselle's voice -- I voted for her. I actually think that she is a superb singer and I agree that it was passionately sung. I even made a similar comment to that effect. It's just the piano accompaniment on* anybody's *rendering that I dislike. I simply don't appreciate the piano with a singer. I need the orchestra. 
Rosa rules!!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I guess I am to go through and delete all contest selections with piano accompaniment as a waste of the forum participants' time. Are art songs allowed with piano? There are also a number of historic aria recordings I've stumbled on with piano accompaniment but I will nix them.


If you don't include piano acccompaniments you'll lose some important recordings from the early years. There won't be all that many anyway, so don't worry about it. I think the inclusion of Ponselle here is great. I love the recordings she made at home in her 50s.

Anderson sounds awfully straightlaced - not at all seductive. Ponselle decisively.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> John:
> I think that you misunderstood my post. I want to be sure that you understand that I have absolutely nothing to say bad about Ponselle's voice -- I voted for her. I actually think that she is a superb singer and I agree that it was passionately sung. I even made a similar comment to that effect. It's just the piano accompaniment on* anybody's *rendering that I dislike. I simply don't appreciate the piano with a singer. I need the orchestra.
> Rosa rules!!


No I know you don't like the piano and it appears you aren't alone. My mother taught piano so I am used to it and it is nostalgic to me. We all come to these with different backgrounds. I never took it you didn't like Ponselle. I know you do from past contests


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> If you don't include piano acccompaniments you'll lose some important recordings from the early years. There won't be all that many anyway, so don't worry about it. I think the inclusion of Ponselle here is great. I love the recordings she made at home in her 50s.
> 
> Anderson sounds awfully straightlaced - not at all seductive. Ponselle decisively.


Thanks Woodduck!!!!! I sometimes get sidetracked by a really beautiful voice and I loved hearing Marion Anderson sing this and just revel in her opulent tone. I've never heard her sing more beautifully, but I can understand why you guys don't connect to it.This is a Callas crowd so interpretation is paramount. She was a towering artist in her day and there are very few arias she ever recorded other than Casta Diva so I jumped at the chance to include her.
I agree I love the Villa Pace recordings by Ponselle. There is a Ponselle version of Senza Mamma I had in a contest where she accompanies herself at the piano and has a nervous breakdown as her character but I already deleted it even though I personally really love it.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Thanks Woodduck!!!!! I sometimes get sidetracked by a really beautiful voice and I loved hearing Marion Anderson sing this just revel in her opulent tone. I've never heard her sing more beautifully, but I can understand why you guys don't connect to it. This is a Callas crowd so interpretation is paramount. I agree I love the Villa Pace recordings by Ponselle. There is a Ponselle version of Senza Mamma I had in a contest where she accompanies herself at the piano and has a nervous breakdown as her character but I already deleted it even though I personally really love it.


I was just listening to Adelina Patti's 1905 "Voi che sapete" with piano. I consider it an important recording that ought to be heard by everyone who cares about the history of singing and musical interpretation. I'll choose what I think is the best link and PM it to you.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Music Snob said:


> Back to topic, sort of...
> 
> Klaus Nomi owns this IMO. Perhaps someone more tech savvy than I could post a video of it. Other than that, I've not much else of value to add...


Who is Klaus Nomi?


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Who is Klaus Nomi?


He was an outrageous, fabulous German gay performer from the late 20th Century who sang in falsetto opera arias as well as "Lightning Strikes in the Rain". Back in the day I bowed down and worshipped at the altar of Klaus Nomi. The Baroque Aria the Cold Song was a big hit. His tux, once seen, was never ever forgotten


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I agree with Woodduck. If you were to exclude recordings with piano accompaniment, then you'd have to also exclude a lot of early recordings of important singers. Generally I prefer arias recorded with orchestra, but if a singer has recorded an aria both with piano and orchestra, I'd still go for the better performance regardless of the accompaniment. When it comes to _LIeder _and art songs, I prefer the piano accompaniment unless the composer himself has orchestrated it, as with Mahler and Strauss.

As to the matter in hand, Anderson sounds a bit stiff and not in the least seductive. I much prefer Ponselle, whose voice still sounds in good shape here. I love the little portamento she makes before launching the big tune at _Ah, réponds à ma tendresse _though she, like so many others, adds another _réponds _to enable her to take another breath. (I'm sorry, but I'll keep mentioning this until someone gets it right).


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> _ ..._though she, like so many others, adds another _réponds _to enable her to take another breath. (I'm sorry, but I'll keep mentioning this until someone gets it right).


No need to apologize. When I've mastered it I'll send you a cassette.

Oh... It seems I'm all out of cassettes.


----------



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I am used to a certain way of interpretation. I don't know what it is, tempi or whatever, but any other way feels uncany to me. Maybe it is the same syndrome like "Peter Dvorský is the best tenor in the world, because I've heard him when I was 10." The "correct" way to me is how Callas and Garanca sing it. Or Borodina, if only I can hear the musical instruments next to he powerful voice. I am giving up on voting until different examples show up, where I will hear the aria the way I know it.


----------



## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> This is a Callas crowd so interpretation is paramount.


Painting with a wide brush. In that crowd you won’t find yours truly.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> *This is a Callas crowd *so interpretation is paramount.





ALT said:


> *Painting with a wide brush. In that crowd you won’t find yours truly.*


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I am used to a certain way of interpretation. I don't know what it is, tempi or whatever, but any other way feels uncany to me. Maybe it is the same syndrome like "Peter Dvorský is the best tenor in the world, because I've heard him when I was 10." The "correct" way to me is how Callas and Garanca sing it. Or Borodina, if only I can hear the musical instruments next to he powerful voice. I am giving up on voting until different examples show up, where I will hear the aria the way I know it.


I have her and Callas is simply fabulous even though I rarely like her late in her career like her version is, but I think some of the other ladies will surprise you. It is a big contest LOL. There are some heavy hitters coming up.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I agree with Woodduck. If you were to exclude recordings with piano accompaniment, then you'd have to also exclude a lot of early recordings of important singers. Generally I prefer arias recorded with orchestra, but if a singer has recorded an aria both with piano and orchestra, I'd still go for the better performance regardless of the accompaniment. When it comes to _LIeder _and art songs, I prefer the piano accompaniment unless the composer himself has orchestrated it, as with Mahler and Strauss.
> 
> As to the matter in hand, Anderson sounds a bit stiff and not in the least seductive. I much prefer Ponselle, whose voice still sounds in good shape here. I love the little portamento she makes before launching the big tune at _Ah, réponds à ma tendresse _though she, like so many others, adds another _réponds _to enable her to take another breath. (I'm sorry, but I'll keep mentioning this until someone gets it right).


I spoke with my voice singer/ opera singer sister about the piano issue and she said that with a piano you can really hear what a singer is made of because everything is so much more exposed than with an orchestra. Of course there are some singers one wants to hear much less exposed  In her late recitals was Callas always with an orchestra? I would say only 25% of the recitals that I saw were with an orchestra.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I spoke with my voice singer/ opera singer sister about the piano issue and she said that with a piano you can really hear what a singer is made of because everything is so much more exposed than with an orchestra. Of course there are some singers one wants to hear much less exposed  In her late recitals was Callas always with an orchestra? I would say only 25% of the recitals that I saw were with an orchestra.


Her final concerts wit Di Stefano were all with piano, but I confess that I find them hard to listen to. If I'd been in the audience I'd no doubt have been carried away by the thrill of just seeing her, but to me they don't represent the true Callas. She did sing some concerts with just piano in her early years in Greece, and you'd be surprised at some of the repertoire (some Lieder and even Vaughan Williams' _On Wenlock Edge_). After she made her debut in Italy, she always sang with orchestra, except a couple of isolated concerts for special occasions, like a concert at St. James', accompanied by Sir Malcolm Sargent, which was a beneft for the Edwina Mountbatten Trust.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Her final concerts wit Di Stefano were all with piano, but I confess that I find them hard to listen to. If I'd been in the audience I'd no doubt have been carried away by the thrill of just seeing her, but to me they don't represent the true Callas. She did sing some concerts with just piano in her early years in Greece, and you'd be surprised at some of the repertoire (some Lieder and even Vaughan Williams' _On Wenlock Edge_). After she made her debut in Italy, she always sang with orchestra, except a couple of isolated concerts for special occasions, like a concert at St. James', accompanied by Sir Malcolm Sargent, which was a beneft for the Edwina Mountbatten Trust.


I thought the final concerts were with piano. She deserves a grand orchestral background.


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> No need to apologize. When I've mastered it I'll send you a cassette.
> 
> Oh... It seems I'm all out of cassettes.


I did it twice when I was in my twenties. No recording exists.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

John:
A little story I thought I mentioned on this site but maybe it was next door about Marian Anderson.
When I was about 10 my parents took me to the Academy of Music and I sat right down front on the right side where she was poised with her stand, so close I could almost touch her. She had such dignity and grace.
She wore a burgundy velvet gown and a diamond necklace. She was majestic up there and when she sang her voice rang out through the hall. Her accompanist on piano was Franz Rupp.
She sang mostly Negro Spirituals like, "He's got the whole world in his hands" and when she came to the "He's got the little bitty baby in his hands..." I actuallly remember choking up, it was so touching.
It was a special day!


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> John:
> A little story I thought I mentioned on this site but maybe it was next door about Marian Anderson.
> When I was about 10 my parents took me to the Academy of Music and I sat right down front on the right side where she was poised with her stand, so close I could almost touch her. She had such dignity and grace.
> She wore a burgundy velvet gown and a diamond necklace. She was majestic up there and when she sang her voice rang out through the hall. Her accompanist on piano was Franz Rupp.
> ...


I was hoping you would share your story. She was supposed to be a real communicator in person. I know someone who heard her live and said her low notes vibrated his seat. He didn't even have to put in a quarter LOL.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I adore Ponselle, but this was one of her homemade recordings made for fun once she was well past retirement. Was she really a mezzo? I like this version because I like Ponselle, but it's more a curiosity than a contender for great performance of the aria. I'm not getting any character and the voice isn't as fluent and assured as when she was in her prime.

I would expect Anderson to win, her being a true contralto. The problem here is the Nimbus transfer process that I find totally unflattering for these early records. It took me a while to realise that she is singing in English, but I don't think it matters due to her prodigious legato. There's a huge difference in hearing a true contralto in the aria. Anderson wins and not just for the suave sexiness of her singing of the refrain.

N.


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

The Conte said:


> I adore Ponselle, but this was one of her homemade recordings made for fun once she was well past retirement. Was she really a mezzo? I like this version because I like Ponselle, but it's more a curiosity than a contender for great performance of the aria. I'm not getting any character and the voice isn't as fluent and assured as when she was in her prime.
> 
> I would expect Anderson to win, her being a true contralto. The problem here is the Nimbus transfer process that I find totally unflattering for these early records. It took me a while to realise that she is singing in English, but I don't think it matters due to her prodigious legato. There's a huge difference in hearing a true contralto in the aria. Anderson wins and not just for the suave sexiness of her singing of the refrain.
> 
> N.


Ponselle herself claimed later in life that may really have been a mezzo with superb facility in the upper register. By the mid 1930s she was primarily singing Carmen and Santuzza. Perhaps she realized her voice was no longer up to her previous Verdian repertoire and to Norma, even with transpositions in the latter.


----------



## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Correct me if I'm wrong. She began early and sang what she could. After her voice had matured or become definitely adult, it also could become lower.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Francasacchi said:


> Ponselle herself claimed later in life that may really have been a mezzo with superb facility in the upper register. By the mid 1930s she was primarily singing Carmen and Santuzza. Perhaps she realized her voice was no longer up to her previous Verdian repertoire and to Norma, even with transpositions in the latter.


There are some similarities to Marilyn Horne's voice. Both had strong lower voices from early on, both began as sopranos and both transitioned later to mezzo roles. When Horne began as a mezzo after many years as a soprano. her high notes were still dazzling but she lost those C6s and B5s within a decade and even if you don't like Marilyn Horne you can't say she mistreated her voice. Same for Ponselle. Many experts claim she had one of the two or three greatest soprano voices of all time ( even without training and even the great Callas thought she was "the greatest of us all ")and you don't get that by being accused of of being a mezzo who masqueraded as a soprano. Even glorious voiced Traubel had trouble at the top but people never called her a mezzo. I love Dimash, a popular singer, who is a baritone, a tenor and a lyric soprano with an extra two octaves thrown in.... what is he??? Just my two bits.


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> There are some similarities to Marilyn Horne's voice. Both had strong lower voices from early on, both began as sopranos and both transitioned later to mezzo roles. When Horne began as a mezzo after many years as a soprano. her high notes were still dazzling but she lost those C6s and B5s within a decade and even if you don't like Marilyn Horne you can't say she mistreated her voice. Same for Ponselle. Many experts claim she had one of the two or three greatest soprano voices of all time ( even without training and even the great Callas thought she was "the greatest of us all ")and you don't get that by being accused of of being a mezzo who masqueraded as a soprano. Even glorious voiced Traubel had trouble at the top but people never called her a mezzo. I love Dimash, a popular singer, who is a baritone, a tenor and a lyric soprano with an extra two octaves thrown in.... what is he??? Just my two bits.


Traubel began as a contralto but developed into a dramatic soprano. The passagio in her voice was always a soprano one, as was that of Varnay, whom many claim was really a mezzo. I now tend to think of Horne at least until 1980s as a soprano with a freak bottom.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> There are some similarities to Marilyn Horne's voice. Both had strong lower voices from early on, both began as sopranos and both transitioned later to mezzo roles. When Horne began as a mezzo after many years as a soprano. her high notes were still dazzling but she lost those C6s and B5s within a decade and even if you don't like Marilyn Horne you can't say she mistreated her voice. Same for Ponselle. Many experts claim she had one of the two or three greatest soprano voices of all time ( even without training and even the great Callas thought she was "the greatest of us all ")and you don't get that by being accused of of being a mezzo who masqueraded as a soprano. Even glorious voiced Traubel had trouble at the top but people never called her a mezzo. I love Dimash, a popular singer, who is a baritone, a tenor and a lyric soprano with an extra two octaves thrown in.... what is he??? Just my two bits.


Didn’t Richard Bonynge call his wife excitedly, exclaiming he was hearing a girl,”who sounds like Rosa Ponselle,” and it turned out to be the young Marilyn Horne (in her soprano period)?


----------



## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> If you don't include piano acccompaniments you'll lose some important recordings from the early years. There won't be all that many anyway, so don't worry about it. I think the inclusion of Ponselle here is great. I love the recordings she made at home in her 50s.
> 
> Anderson sounds awfully straightlaced - not at all seductive. Ponselle decisively.


Possibly the result of Anderson being a concert singer and Ponselle being an opera singer??


----------



## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

MAS said:


> Didn’t Richard Bonynge call his wife excitedly, exclaiming he was hearing a girl,”who sounds like Rosa Ponselle,” and it turned out to be the young Marilyn Horne (in her soprano period)?


I've heard Marilyn Horne compared to Rosa Ponselle by a few people. I don't hear it myself but it's an interesting comparison. Florence Austral is recorded as saying she thought Ponselle was a mezzo. Apparently Ponselle became less and less comfortable with the High C's Aida etc. Possibly the reason she wanted to sing Adriana Lecouvrer.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

damianjb1 said:


> I've heard Marilyn Horne compared to Rosa Ponselle by a few people. I don't hear it myself but it's an interesting comparison. Florence Austral is recorded as saying she thought Ponselle was a mezzo. Apparently Ponselle became less and less comfortable with the High C's Aida etc. Possibly the reason she wanted to sing Adriana Lecouvrer.


Ponselle actually said that had she continued her career she would have done so as a mezzo. That shows a refreshing lack of ego. The recordings she made at home in her 50s certainly indicate that she could have had a long career however categorized.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

damianjb1 said:


> I've heard Marilyn Horne compared to Rosa Ponselle by a few people. I don't hear it myself but it's an interesting comparison. Florence Austral is recorded as saying she thought Ponselle was a mezzo. Apparently Ponselle became less and less comfortable with the High C's Aida etc. Possibly the reason she wanted to sing Adriana Lecouvrer.


I think it refers to the range, dexterity, brightness mixed with darkness that Horne had and Horne's early high notes were reminiscent of Ponselle's to me. Also to great size of their voices. Horne was not great in the Immolation Scene but certainly she had the size voice needed to do justice to the piece.


----------



## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Ponselle actually said that had she continued her career she would have done so as a mezzo. That shows a refreshing lack of ego. The recordings she made at home in her 50s certainly indicate that she could have had a long career however categorized.


The roles they had her singing were certainly Soprano roles. Norma, Leonora, Aida, Donna Anna, Violetta and so on. I'm sure I read somewhere she was quoted as saying that when she sang Aida she was jealous of whoever was singing Amneris. The high C in act 3 apparently terrified her. Although I suspect almost all soprano's are terrified of that high C. Many would disagree with me but the best Aida I've heard from the last 30 years was Netrebko. Not in person - live in HD.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

damianjb1 said:


> The roles they had her singing were certainly Soprano roles. Norma, Leonora, Aida, Donna Anna, Violetta and so on. I'm sure I read somewhere she was quoted as saying that when she sang Aida she was jealous of whoever was singing Amneris. The high C in act 3 apparently terrified her. Although I suspect almost all soprano's are terrified of that high C. Many would disagree with me but the best Aida I've heard from the last 30 years was Netrebko. Not in person - live in HD.


That might raise the eyebrows of some in our forum but I counter that there have been very few good Verdi sopranos in general since Millo stopped singing. except for maybe Umana, who hasn't done many live HD recordings. We had some good ones in Seattle but for some reason they never became big at the Met or internationally. Would Gheorghiu be considered a Verdi soprano? She is really first class and I know she sang Aida arias in concert but singing the whole role is different.


----------



## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> That might raise the eyebrows of some in our forum but I counter that there have been very few good Verdi sopranos in general since Millo stopped singing. except for maybe Umana, who hasn't done many live HD recordings. We had some good ones in Seattle but for some reason they never became big at the Met or internationally. Would Gheorghiu be considered a Verdi soprano? She is really first class and I know she sang Aida arias in concert but singing the whole role is different.


Tatiana Serjan was / is renowned Lady Macbeth, Abigail, Odabella in Europe, also Aida, Amelia, Leonora and Elisabetta.
Anja Harteros. Krassimira Stoyanova. Barbara Frittoli and Maria Guleghina, the latter at least a decade ago. Dimitra Theodossiou, she maybe was not perfect, but attracted attention. Elena Stikhina? It's more complicated with Violetas.


----------



## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I also was going to ask you, knowledgeable people, about Marian Anderson's performance present here. Despite a beauty of the voice and lack of strain, there is a certain trembling in it. What is it? Is it vibrato or wobble?


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ColdGenius said:


> Tatiana Serjan was / is renowned Lady Macbeth, Abigail, Odabella in Europe, also Aida, Leonora and Elisabetta.
> Anja Harteros. Krassimira Stoyanova. Barbara Frittoli and Maria Guleghina, the latter at least a decade ago. It's more complicated with Violetas.


I don't know current stars much. My head is stuck in the past. Gugleghina is so goooooorgeous and was exciting to hear early on but Eastern European singers, other than Podles,, Dimitrova, Milanov and Gheorghiu, don't normally have voices that age well. . Whether I would put any of those ladies on the same level as Price, Tebaldi, Callas, Ponselle.... now that is a different matter.


----------



## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Seattleoperafan said:


> That might raise the eyebrows of some in our forum but I counter that there have been very few good Verdi sopranos in general since Millo stopped singing. except for maybe Umana, who hasn't done many live HD recordings. We had some good ones in Seattle but for some reason they never became big at the Met or internationally. Would Gheorghiu be considered a Verdi soprano? She is really first class and I know she sang Aida arias in concert but singing the whole role is different.


I don't think Gheorghiu had the stamina to do a 7 performance run of Aida or Forza. We got bits and pieces of them but I don't think she could have done the whole thing multiple times.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I think it refers to the range, dexterity, brightness mixed with darkness that Horne had and Horne's early high notes were reminiscent of Ponselle's to me. Also to great size of their voices. Horne was not great in the Immolation Scene but certainly she had the size voice needed to do justice to the piece.


Horne does not strike me as having a big voice at all. I'd say lyric as best. I find her sound slightly artificial in its darkness and rather nasal without letting the voice out freely.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> Horne does not strike me as having a big voice at all. I'd say lyric as best. I find her sound slightly artificial in its darkness and rather nasal without letting the voice out freely.


I only saw her late in her career, as Isabella in *L'Italiana in Algeri* at Covent Garden. By that time the voice wasn't large at all, in fact about half the size of Baltsa's, whom I'd seen in the role when the production was new.


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

ColdGenius said:


> I also was going to ask you, knowledgeable people, about Marian Anderson's performance present here. Despite a beauty of the voice and lack of strain, there is a certain trembling in it. What is it? Is it vibrato or wobble?


A quick healthy vibrato


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Op.123 said:


> Horne does not strike me as having a big voice at all. I'd say lyric as best. I find her sound slightly artificial in its darkness and rather nasal without letting the voice out freely.


If you listen to the recording of La Gioconda with Horne as Laura and Tebaldi as La Gioconda, it is clear that despite the easy chest notes Horne has the smaller instrument. Horne herself said she never felt at home on the Verdi or big gun mezzo roles because they required a bigger columnar sound throughout the range. I have always thought Horne was really a soprano with a trick bottom.


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

damianjb1 said:


> I've heard Marilyn Horne compared to Rosa Ponselle by a few people. I don't hear it myself but it's an interesting comparison. Florence Austral is recorded as saying she thought Ponselle was a mezzo. Apparently Ponselle became less and less comfortable with the High C's Aida etc. Possibly the reason she wanted to sing Adriana Lecouvrer.


I think I said this earlier but Ponselle wanted to sing Amneris but Gatti-Cassaza said no.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I only saw her late in her career, as Isabella in *L'Italiana in Algeri* at Covent Garden. By that time the voice wasn't large at all, in fact about half the size of Baltsa's, whom I'd seen in the role when the production was new.


That's what I'd expect. Baltsa was a good mezzo, maybe not quite a true dramatic mezzo like Bumbry, Verrett, Dominguez, Simionato etc. but one with a good, opened voice which could happily fill most theatres.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> Horne does not strike me as having a big voice at all. I'd say lyric as best. I find her sound slightly artificial in its darkness and rather nasal without letting the voice out freely.


You haven't heard her Immolation Scene have you then? Her voice is huge. Of course when I saw her in a lieder concert, the only time I saw her, you would never know it because she was in second and third gear the whole time, but if she needed it she had it. Remember she was famous with her duets with Sutherland who had an enormous voice and no one ever thought Sutherland dominated her.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> You haven't heard her Immolation Scene have you then? Her voice is huge. Of course when I saw her in a lieder concert, the only time I saw her, you would never know it because she was in second and third gear the whole time, but if she needed it she had it. Remember she was famous with her duets with Sutherland who had an enormous voice and no one ever thought Sutherland dominated her.


Sorry, but the voice just doesn't sound that large to me here. She's forwardly placed in the recording but the voice doesn't sound large like Flagstad, Varnay, Nilsson or any number of true dramatics in this scene. And I find she does sound smaller in her duets with Sutherland. Admittedly her voice became smaller as her career progressed and her placement became more nasal but it's never sounded like a dramatic voice to me, even from the start.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> Sorry, but the voice just doesn't sound that large to me here. She's forwardly placed in the recording but the voice doesn't sound large like Flagstad, Varnay, Nilsson or any number of true dramatics in this scene. And I find she does sound smaller in her duets with Sutherland. Admittedly her voice became smaller as her career progressed and her placement became more nasal but it's never sounded like a dramatic voice to me, even from the start.


I love Horne so I might hear what I want to here. Surely someone has heard her when she let it rip and can pipe in. A lieder recital is not the same as singing Azucena (I hated her in that role- otherwise I love my lp set).


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I love Horne so I might hear what I want to here. Surely someone has heard her when she let it rip and can pipe in. A lieder recital is not the same as singing Azucena (I hated her in that role- otherwise I love my lp set).


I heard her many times in San Francisco, but I never thought of the size of her voice. My recollection is that it wasn’t overtly large or small. The repertoire she sang in my time was mosty the Rossini-Vivaldi-Händel-Bellini pieces, in which voice size was an afterthought. Exceptions were *Carmen*, *Falstaff*, *Samson et Dalila*, but voice size there was not an issue.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> That's what I'd expect. Baltsa was a good mezzo, maybe not quite a true dramatic mezzo like Bumbry, Verrett, Dominguez, Simionato etc. but one with a good, opened voice which could happily fill most theatres.


I heard Baltsa at Covent Garden on quite a few occasions, as Adalgisa, Dorabella, Isabella, and, most memorably of all, as Eboli and in the Verdi Requiem. She was also the greatest Carmen of my experience. Covent Garden has a good acoustic and isn't especially large, I suppose, but her voice had absolutely no trouble filling the house. She was a thrilling performer and equally convincing in comedy (both her Dorabella and Isabella were very funny) and tragedy. Her _O don fatale _brought the house down.


----------

