# Please solve these two puzzles of Tristan & Parsifal



## Parsifal1954 (May 6, 2013)

1. If Tristan & Isolde have been in love since they looked into each others eyes (when Isolde was treating his wounds), why he offers King Mark to bring her for him as bride?

2. If Parsifal rejects the temptation of sex, where Lohengrin comes from?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Concerning question number two, Parsifal's rejection of Kundry does not mean that he rejected all love for a woman forever. I think the idea was not that _all_ sex is somehow evil, but that sex with a witch whose only purpose in offering love to Parsifal was to overpower him and make him another slave in Klingsor's enchanted castle (just like other Grail Knights had been enslaved before) was definitely evil.

There is a moment in the first act where the boy, whom Gurnemanz is telling the story of the Grail, the Spear and Klingsor, calls Gurnemanz "Vaeterchen" - "Daddy". This again, also seems to signify that the Grail knights were not strangers to love and family.

Concerning question number one, maybe Tristan fell in love while looking into the eyes of Isolde, but she was also trying to kill him at the same time. He had, after all, murdered her beloved. Thristan probably believed he had no chances with Isolde, and then there are two possibilities. Either he decided to stifle the love in him by getting her married to King Marke - the man who was like a father to him, and who he would have never thought of betraying (he would not have done it either, if it weren't for the potion). Or he believed he would do a favor to Isolde by making her wife of a gentle-hearted king who had great love and respect for her.

I have no way to provide the pertinent libretto quotes right now, I will do it later.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> There is a moment in the first act where the boy, whom Gurnemanz is telling the story of the Grail, the Spear and Klingsor, calls Gurnemanz "Vaeterchen" - "Daddy". This again, also seems to signify that the Grail knights were not strangers to love and family.


And there's also a daddy-boy thing in the opera! Amfortas is Titurel's son! The Grail knights were really good guys, I see.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Parsifal1954,

About your question 1, i'd advise you to read the sources where Wagner took notes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_and_Iseult


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Oh now, let's not spoil the whole thing by asking what Wagner thought - who cares, really? The thing is to come up with wonderful ideas that work for us.

On question 1 - and honestly, i've never liked the opera so this may be a stupid answer - well, if i did like it it might be stupid - but anyway - i think it was one of those things where they fall in love but don't realize it until much later. you know how sometimes you feel instantly comfortable with someone but the word "love" doesn't occur to you until much later? like that.

On question 2 - two potential answers, both of which i really like so i can't decide. the first answer is: Kundry didn't die. morality has nothing to do with it; a miracle occurred, namely that she and parsifal could have sex without violating any moral restrictions, and she gave birth to Lohengrin. Second answer: virgin birth! from the dad. Well, you know, it could happen.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

Kundry is Lohengrin's mom? I've thought about it, but never been sure.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Zabirilog said:


> Kundry is Lohengrin's mom? I've thought about it, but never been sure.


Right, you notice how respectful he is around women? Being Kundry's son could do that to you. :lol:


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Zabirilog said:


> Kundry is Lohengrin's mom? I've thought about it, but never been sure.


According to the Wikipedia (which, as everyone knows, is the most reliable source on ANYTHING), Lohengrin's mother (and Parsifal's wife) was Condwiramurs, which, if nothing else sounds kind of like Kundry.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

1) T&I's Facebook relationship status would be: "It's Complicated". As I recall, when she was treating his wounds, she didn't realize at first he was a mortal enemy, much less the man who slayed her husband-to-be. That revelation and that fateful eyeful contact come in pretty rapid succession, I forget which is first. Tristan rightly figures she might hold a grudge and his odds aren't so good. Maybe he figures he's doing both her and King Marke a favor by hooking them up, with the added benefit that he can be near her in some way. Throw in a love potion, and you've got yourself an opera.

2) I recently read a book that covered some of the medieval sources for Parsifal. Apparently, although the Grail Knights are expected to be chaste, the Grail King is allowed a consort. Thus, Titurel has a son, and so does Parsifal. Apparently and significantly, too, in the orignal sources it is implied that Amforta's wound is a bit errr... lower.. than his side - thus a direct threat to the succession of the Grail King's throne.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Let's face it both libretti are preposterous as most Operas are. You might just as well ask why the women do not recognise their lovers in Cosi fan Tutte. Or why no one twigs Fidelio is a woman! Or how rigoletto kept it from every one he had a daughter. One could go on.....
One has to suspend disbelief in opera more than most arts. Just why are these people communicating in song in the first place?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Aksel said:


> According to the Wikipedia (which, as everyone knows, is the most reliable source on ANYTHING), Lohengrin's mother (and Parsifal's wife) was Condwiramurs, which, if nothing else sounds kind of like Kundry.


it DOES sound like Kundry! Good one.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

Parsifal1954 said:


> 1. If Tristan & Isolde have been in love since they looked into each others eyes (when Isolde was treating his wounds), why he offers King Mark to bring her for him as bride?


This question has bothered me for some time, and I'm always happy to meet people who feel in a similar way, care about the plot!

For better or worse, I had laid out my thoughts in this posting.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Let's face it both libretti are preposterous as most Operas are. You might just as well ask why the women do not recognise their lovers in Cosi fan Tutte. Or why no one twigs Fidelio is a woman! Or how rigoletto kept it from every one he had a daughter. One could go on.....
> One has to suspend disbelief in opera more than most arts. Just why are these people communicating in song in the first place?


Actually, the plot of _Fidelio_ isn't as far-fetched as it sounds, at least for the time period in which it was written. The history of the United States has a number of women who successfully disguised themselves as men to fight in wars -- either the Revolution (about 30 years before _Fidelio_ was composed) or the Civil War, several decades later. "Private William Cathay" and "Private Frank Thompson" were both women. Usually, the gender of such women was only discovered if they needed medical attention, or -- as in the case of "Private Thompson," she fell in love with another soldier and revealed her identity to him. (He kept her secret, and her adventures only became known when she wrote about them.)


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Not to mention the jazzman who, it was discovered after he died, was actually a lady... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Tipton

oops... just read the link and it says he presented as a male only professionally, and as a lady otherwise. Still quite a thing.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

A perfect direction to the end of Parsifal would be, that when he shows the Grail, Kundry looks at him thankfully and they run to embrace each other. Amfortas could kind of over-act about his wound's heeling and Gurnemanz would look smiling at Kundry and Parsifal.

About Tristan I don't know..


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Zabirilog said:


> A perfect direction to the end of Parsifal would be, that when he shows the Grail, Kundry looks at him thankfully and they run to embrace each other.


But that would be sooo trite. I mean, how many times have we seen that kind of ending... a thousand or two maybe?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Magic potions: no other explanations needed


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Magic potions: no other explanations needed


Human beings: magic potions may speed up the effect a little.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Parsifal1954 said:


> 1. If Tristan & Isolde have been in love since they looked into each others eyes (when Isolde was treating his wounds), why he offers King Mark to bring her for him as bride?


Duty. The thing that supercedes duty is the love potion.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

DavidA said:


> Or how rigoletto kept it from every one he had a daughter.


Not that hard. In the news now: a couple of guys managed to keep three women prisoners secret for 10 years in a house in a crowded neighbourhood.

Anyway in the libretto Gilda says she has been in the city for 3 months only. And the Duke's henchmen are aware that there is someone in his house, but they think she is his lover.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Not that hard. In the news now: a couple of guys managed to keep three women prisoners secret for 10 years in a house in a crowded neighbourhood.
> 
> Anyway in the libretto Gilda says she has been in the city for 3 months only. And the Duke's henchmen are aware that there is someone in his house, but they think she is his lover.


Yes, but Gilda's been out to church! But why only three months? And why doesn't she know her father's name.

Opera is not born of logic. It's for enjoyment!


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

I think Tristan was in love in Isolde and vice versa since they first met. However by convention with him killing her fiancee and her being betrothed to his uncle later, their love was not consummate until love potion broke wide open all the social barrier that kept the two apart. Something like that, I suppose!


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Ebab said:


> Human beings: magic potions may speed up the effect a little.


Tha potions exists but it is not called Potion. It's called Alcohol


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

- Tristan and Isolde loved each other when they first met, but that was a human love, and they didn't accept it. The solution for this love is not to meet again, for that Tristan didn't want to meet Isolde during the trip.
After the potion, the love becames so magic and strong that they couldn't fight against it, they are enchanted by this supernatural love and nothing matters but the "love". The solution is to meet in the other life. A supernatural love is to be lived in a supernatural life.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Parsifal1954 said:


> 1. If Tristan & Isolde have been in love since they looked into each others eyes (when Isolde was treating his wounds), why he offers King Mark to bring her for him as bride?


This is throughly addressed in the 2nd act shortly after Tristan and Isolde reunite. However this dialogue is often cut in favour of a more swift entry into the famous love duet.

ISOLDE:

Tristan, he that betrayed me!
Was it not Day
that made him false
when he came to Ireland
as a suitor
to court me for King Mark,
to dedicate loyalty to Death?

TRISTAN:

Day! Day!
Which shimmered round about you,
to there where she
seemed like the sun
in highest honour's
radiant glow,
Isolde withdrew from me!
That which so
delighted my eye
made my heart sink
to the depths of the earth:
in the bright light of Day
how could Isolde be mine?

ISOLDE:

Was she not yours,
she that chose you?
What lies did evil Day
tell you
that you betrayed your dearest,
she that was destined to be yours?

TRISTAN:

In the grip of madness I could not but
yeld my heart
to that which shimmered round about you
in majestic splendour,
the glitter of honour and
the power of renown.
Day's bright orb
of worldly honour,
shining upon me
with the brightest
radiant glow,
penetrated
my head
with its beams
of vain bliss
and reached
the deepest recesses
of my heart.
What lay there
darkly concealed in chaste night,
what I dimly perceived,
not knowing, not imagining;
a form, which my eyes
could not believe they saw,
caught in the light of Day,
lay there gleaming before me.
Before the whole throng
I praised in clear tones
what seemed to me
so glorious and sublime;
before all the people
I extolled aloud
the loveliest
royal bride on earth.
I bade defiance to
the envy which
Day awakened in me,
to the zeal which
threatened my happiness,
to the jealousy which began to make
honour and fame a burden to me,
and firmly resolved
to uphold honour and glory,
to go to Ireland.

ISOLDE:

O vain thrall of Day!
Deceived by that which
deceived you,
how I, loving you,
suffered on your account;
caught in Day's
false glitter,
in the snare
of its cunning,
in the depths of my heart,
where burning love
encompassed him,
I hated him bitterly.
Ah, what piercing pain
in the recesses of my heart!
How hard he whom I secretly harboured there
must have thought me
when, in the light of Day
my faithfully cherished one
vanished to loving eyes
and stood before me only as a foe!
From the light of Day
which made you appear to me
a traitor
I wished to flee
into Night,
to take you with me,
where my heart would bid me
end all deception,
where the vain premonition
of treachery might be dispelled,
there to pledge to you
eternal love,
to consecrate you to Death
in company with myself.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> This is throughly addressed in the 2nd act shortly after Tristan and Isolde reunite. However this dialogue is often cut in favour of a more swift entry into the famous love duet.
> 
> ISOLDE:
> 
> ...


These guys don't half go on. I'm sure my wife and I didn't say all those words when we were courting!


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

DavidA said:


> These guys don't half go on. I'm sure my wife and I didn't say all those words when we were courting!


In those days, you needed that exact amount of words to have the right to pick up the her handkerchief from the floor. Old days...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

dionisio said:


> In those days, you needed that exact amount of words to have the right to pick up the her handkerchief from the floor. Old days...


And in those days you didn't blow your own nose on it either!


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Other couple of questions:

1- Why do we need the three Norns? I understand when Wagner put them in _Siegfrieds Tod_ but i've never quite understood why they appear on the Ring.

2- Is Siegfried a Forrest Gump guy?


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

The norns are quite useless as characters, they just are there... Of course they remind us about what has happened, and when the rope breaks, it is the prelude to the twilight of the gods.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

Couchie said:


> Parsifal1954 said:
> 
> 
> > 1. If Tristan & Isolde have been in love since they looked into each others eyes (when Isolde was treating his wounds), why he offers King Mark to bring her for him as bride?
> ...


I've re-read that passage several times in both German and the English translation; I can see _indications_ regarding Parsifal1954's question, but not a definite answer.

Would you mind telling me how you understand these lines, regarding Tristan's motive (urging Marke to marry Isolde, and bringing her to him), in your own words?

I realize I'm a little obsessed with that particular plot point. But, in similar instances of Wagner's work, digging deeper has always brought me more enjoyment.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Ebab said:


> I've re-read that passage several times in both German and the English translation; I can see _indications_ regarding Parsifal1954's question, but not a definite answer.
> 
> Would you mind telling me how you understand these lines, regarding Tristan's motive (urging Marke to marry Isolde, and bringing her to him), in your own words?
> 
> I realize I'm a little obsessed with that particular plot point. But, in similar instances of Wagner's work, digging deeper has always brought me more enjoyment.


Personally I prefer to leave the understanding a little foggy rather than trying to distill such dense text down to a simple explanation. Certainly people have driven themselves mad trying to distill the Ring and Parsifal into something completely coherent, although Tristan is a little easier. I will admit my preferred method of Tristan intake however is to turn off the subtitles and get drunk on the music and the "impression" of the text, rather than the actual text itself.

Still, I will give it a go. It comes back to the central analogy of the opera.

*Day = Societal obligation and duty. ie. Tristan's to Marke and Isolde's to Morold.
Night = Desire (or more bluntly, "true" love).*

Now my understanding is that a major reason for the war, if not the sole reason for the war, was in fact to "win a bride" for Marke. Tristan would have made this pledge to Marke well before he ever laid eyes on Isolde.

_When all his people
at court and in the country
pressed him
with pleas and warnings
to select a queen for the country
and a consort for himself;
when you yourself
besought your uncle
graciously to grant
the court's wish
and the people's will,
with craft and kindness,
resisting court and country,
resisting you yourself,
*he refused
until, Tristan, you threatened
to quit for ever
his court and land
if you were not
yourself sent off
to win the king a bride.*
Then he let it be so._

Tristan succeeds in defeating Morold but is wounded himself. When Isolde happens upon him they have their "moment" and it is immediately apparent to both their unspoken love and desire. Obviously they can't be together. It would have been completely inappropriate for Isolde to fall for Tristan in the wake of Morold's death as it would not only betray his memory but her country itself, to love its conqueror. Tristan knows this of course.

_That which so
delighted my eye
made my heart sink
to the depths of the earth:
*in the bright light of Day
how could Isolde be mine?*_

And for Tristan to go back to Cornwall claiming Marke's bride for himself would have been out of the question. So he returns empty-handed without her, failing to deliver the bride to Marke.

This failure compromises his honor, as the people still demand the Queen that Tristan promised to supply. Furthermore he cannot keep his affection for Isolde hidden in the Night away from the pervading light of day which beings to more and more plainly illuminate his love for Isolde.

_That which brightly shone
down on my head
with the glitter
of dazzling light,
the noonday sun
of worldly fame,
with its rays
of empty rapture
*forced its way
through head and brain
to the inmost shrine
of my heart.*
That which awoke there,
darkly locked away in chaste night,
that which, unknown and unimagined,
I dimly perceived there -
a vision that my eyes
had not dared to gaze on -
lay gleaming before me,
lit up by the light of day.
That which seemed to me
so glorious and splendid
I plainly proclaimed
before the host;
in front of all the people
I loudly praised
the loveliest royal bride
on earth._

He begins to be consumed by the jealousy of his inhibited passion and it eats at his honorable self-image and his relationship with Marke. He eventually decides that to stop this degradation and maintain his honor he must prove his ultimate loyalty by bringing Isolde to Marke:
_
The envy that day
awoke in me,
the passion
that my fortune dismayed,
the jealousy that began
to taint my honour and fame,
these I defied,*
and loyally vowed
to preserve my fame and honour,
and journey back to Ireland.*_


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

Kudos on the analysis and spending more time explaining that than I wanted to myself. Actually, I found the number of replies in this thread to the tune of "it's opera, you just have to suspend disbelief" or "it has to do with a magic love potion or some nonsense" somewhat surprising. That is a total underestimation of Wagner's dramatic genius, and totally ignores all the subtle and penetrating psychological insights that this work like all his works have to offer. The stories are in fact being told in unusually full detail and are very coherently structured. Of course different portions of the story are disclosed in different scenes, often glancingly, and seldom in chronological order, and it is left to the audience to put the pieces together. Obviously many audience members never do this and remain content with a general picture of what is going on. For example I thought it was demonstrated in thorough detail that Tristan and Isolde were already in love at the beginning of act 1, that Isolde was furious at Tristan for betraying her mercy and their love by handing her over to Marke, and that when the two of them declare their love at the end of the act this is due to the fact that they think they are about to die, not because they took the love potion. Yet this is a continued point of confusion for many people. The OP's original question has a more complicated answer, but as Couchie demonstrated a sensible, satisfying one is implied within the drama itself.

As for the OP's second question, it's pretty much a non-issue and only cause of pointless speculation. The connection between Lohengrin and Parsifal is from the literary sources Wagner used and has no real bearing on either of his operas.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

SilenceIsGolden said:


> Kudos on the analysis and spending more time explaining that than I wanted to myself. Actually, I found the number of replies in this thread to the tune of "it's opera, you just have to suspend disbelief" or "it has to do with a magic love potion or some nonsense" somewhat surprising. That is a total underestimation of Wagner's dramatic genius, and totally ignores all the subtle and penetrating psychological insights that this work like all his works have to offer. The stories are in fact being told in unusually full detail and are very coherently structured. Of course different portions of the story are disclosed in different scenes, often glancingly, and seldom in chronological order, and it is left to the audience to put the pieces together. Obviously many audience members never do this and remain content with a general picture of what is going on. For example I thought it was demonstrated in thorough detail that Tristan and Isolde were already in love at the beginning of act 1, that Isolde was furious at Tristan for betraying her mercy and their love by handing her over to Marke, and that when the two of them declare their love at the end of the act this is due to the fact that they think they are about to die, not because they took the love potion. Yet this is a continued point of confusion for many people. The OP's original question has a more complicated answer, but as Couchie demonstrated a sensible, satisfying one is implied within the drama itself.


I agree that many if not most audience members only get a general picture of the action and am also grateful to see the effort put in here to quote specific libretto excerpts (albeit in translation). While the use of captions or supertitles is helpful to give a sense of the action, I don't think most people realize they are vague approximations at best.

I also agree that the unhappy couple are both convinced they are drinking a death potion, and their mutual willingness to do so only confirms their mutual love and makes them all the more attracted to each other. I used to think the love potion angle was a major weakness in the plot, but delving into the libretto in more depth I now think that whether or the love potion is real or just mama's homemade herbal hooch is irrelevant.


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## Parsifal1954 (May 6, 2013)

This is quiet an interesting interpretation. But I'm affraid it is totally wrong. Tristan did not go to war to win Isolde for King Marke. You have quoted this in your May 11th post:

ISOLDE:

Tristan, he that betrayed me!
Was it not Day
that made him false
when he came to Ireland
as a suitor
to court me for King Mark,
to dedicate loyalty to Death?

She feels betrayed because he came to take her for the king AFTER they fell in love in their previous encounter. This is the real problem.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

Couchie said:


> Personally I prefer to leave the understanding a little foggy rather than trying to distill such dense text down to a simple explanation. Certainly people have driven themselves mad trying to distill the Ring and Parsifal into something completely coherent, although Tristan is a little easier. I will admit my preferred method of Tristan intake however is to turn off the subtitles and get drunk on the music and the "impression" of the text, rather than the actual text itself.


All points well taken. It's not that I'd want to over-interpret, just understand the complexities that are on the page.

When I first encountered Wagner, I was puzzled why they all were being so dramatic and hysterically yelling at each other. But when I began to understand plot and the characters' motivations, every single line actually, the emotions became plausible and gained the right proportions.

I enjoy Tristan as a drama foremost. Words _and_ music form characters, emotions. The actual experience is a vortex of everything, which I don't approach rationally. But thinking and reading about it enhances my experience. - OK, enough of that.



> Still, I will give it a go.
> 
> [...]


Much appreciated! Quoting larger passages but highlighting the essential parts was an excellent idea.

I'd agree with many of your interpretations, but not with the basic timeline.



Parsifal1954 said:


> She feels betrayed because he came to take her for the king AFTER they fell in love in their previous encounter.


I would rather agree to that.

A plan between Tristan and Marke to win Isolde, made _before_ Cornwall's uprising, would shed an entirely different light on Morold's death. Instead of a fair fight against an oppressor, it would look like a planned murder in order to dispose of the inconvenient fiancé. And it would be so unlike Marke (even with all of Tristan's pressure); even if Marke hadn't expected Morold's death, he would never marry a woman won though such injustice.

And with Tristan making the decision to persuade Marke only _after_ he had returned from Isolde, his motivation must be a different one.


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

Parsifal1954 said:


> This is quiet an interesting interpretation. But I'm affraid it is totally wrong. Tristan did not go to war to win Isolde for King Marke. You have quoted this in your May 11th post:
> 
> ISOLDE:
> 
> ...


Right, but Couchie's interpretation wasn't _totally_ wrong. The answer to your original question is still what he demonstrated it was: the two lovers are too proud to admit their feelings to one another and are stifling their true desires because of a sense of loyalty and duty to others.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

SilenceIsGolden said:


> Right, but Couchie's interpretation wasn't _totally_ wrong. The answer to your original question is still what he demonstrated it was: the two lovers are too proud to admit their feelings to one another and are stifling their true desires because of a sense of loyalty and duty to others.


I largely agree. In Tristan's case, I see something else in addition: He defies the power of love altogether. He confesses it right before he drinks the potion that he thinks will bring him death:


Tristans Ehre -
höchste Treu':
Tristans Elend -
kühnster Trotz.Tristan's honour -
utter loyalty:
Tristan's misery -
keenest defiance.

There's a development here:

Act I: Tristan _defies_ love.
Act II: Tristan _celebrates_ love.
Act III: Tristan _suffers_ love.

And this is one of the reasons why I firmly believe we need that third act. Without Tristan's true and inescapable suffering in Act III, the journey wouldn't become complete.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Ebab said:


> I largely agree. In Tristan's case, I see something else in addition: He defies the power of love altogether. He confesses it right before he drinks the potion that he thinks will bring him death.


That is an interesting thought, and it sheds light on another passage of the text. Right before drinking the potion, which Tristan believes to be poison, he says:

_... Den Becher nehm ich nun,
dass ganz ich heut genese.._

I shall take the goblet
that I may be fully *healed* today.

And a little later:

_...Ew'ger Trauer
einz'ger Trost:
Vergessens güt'ger Trank, -
dich trink ich sonder Wank!_

...The only consolation
in eternal mourning.
Benign draught of *forgetfulness*,
I drink you without hesitation!

I think these words "healing" and "forgetfullness" are the key here: Tristan wants to be healed of his hopeless passion, that is why even poison seems a good thing to him in comparison with his present suffering.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I am thoroughly enjoying this plot-and-libretto sort of discussion, probably more than any other kind of discussion about Wagner (certainly more than Wagner-and-Nazis!  ) I remember the time in literature class back at school, when we had to pull apart and analyze texts. Back then I never enjoyed it as much as I do now, with the texts of the _Meister_.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I think these words "healing" and "forgetfullness" are the key here: Tristan wants to be healed of his hopeless passion, that is why even poison seems a good thing to him in comparison with his present suffering.


I very much agree. I think there are three things coming together here:


Tristan is not really a citizen of our (the sun's) world to begin with.
He is entangled into guilt. Morold may have been an oppressor from Cornwall's point of view, but burying Morold's body in a shallow grave on some forsaken island, and sending his head back home to his fiancée, may cheer Tristan's own men, but it shows a truly dark side, too. Makes you wonder what else there had been.
And then he falls in love with the woman, whom he he had sent that head to, who had picked him up from that small boat, who had healed his wound, who had recognized him as the perpetrator, looked him into his eyes, and still did not kill him, but sent him home safely instead. If he has any decency left, she is forever unattainable to him.

Good reasons to welcome the "healing" potion of death, that is being proffered by his love.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Parsifal1954 said:


> This is quiet an interesting interpretation. But I'm affraid it is totally wrong. Tristan did not go to war to win Isolde for King Marke. You have quoted this in your May 11th post:
> 
> ISOLDE:
> 
> ...


Yet Marke speaks solely in terms of Tristan "winning" Isolde for him:

_Tristan, you threatened
to quit for ever
his court and land
if you were not
yourself sent off
*to win the king a bride.*
Then he let it be so.
Who could behold,
who could know
this wondrous wife
*that your valour won for me,*
who could proudly
call her his
without deeming himself blessed?_

Where is the valour or victory in taking a widow against her will to marry the enemy? Why would Tristan's jealousy compel him to marry Isolde to another after the fact?



Ebab said:


> A plan between Tristan and Marke to win Isolde, made _before_ Cornwall's uprising, would shed an entirely different light on Morold's death. Instead of a fair fight against an oppressor, it would look like a planned murder in order to dispose of the inconvenient fiancé. And it would be so unlike Marke (even with all of Tristan's pressure); even if Marke hadn't expected Morold's death, he would never marry a woman won though such injustice.


Well remember in Act I that Tristan seems genuinely surprised that Isolde had any feelings for Morold. Brangane also considered Tristan's offer to Isolde to marry Marke to a great honour. We are in the dark ages and women can aspire to be little more than the trophies of great men. And it isn't murder if it's war, right?


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## Parsifal1954 (May 6, 2013)

Couchie said:


> Yet Marke speaks solely in terms of Tristan "winning" Isolde for him:
> 
> _Tristan, you threatened
> to quit for ever
> ...


Yes, of course Tristan goes to Irland to win Isolde for King Marke. But this is on his second trip there. He fell in love with Isolde on his first trip that was the war between the two nations. This is exactly my point. If they have fell in love and as Isolde says, he has made promisses to her, why when he is back in his country, he insists in convincing King Marke to send him back to Irland to win Isolde's hand for the king?


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

Couchie said:


> Yet Marke speaks solely in terms of Tristan "winning" Isolde for him:
> 
> _Tristan, you threatened
> to quit for ever
> ...


Here is how I see the situation. There is no indication that Tristan has ever seen or knows anything about Isolde before he is wounded and in her care. In Kurwenal's response to Brangaene in act one it is indicated that the reason for Tristan's battle with Morold was the slaying of a rival warrior from an oppressor state.

_Lord Morold
went off to sea
to exact tribute in Cornwall;
an island floats 
in the desolate seas,
there he now lies buried!
But his head is hanging
in Ireland
as tribute paid
to England:
hail to our hero, Tristan,
he knows how to exact tribute!_

So far from Tristan going out to kill Morold to win Isolde, he simply kicks Morold's *** for trying to collect tribute. This sparks a war. Besides if that had been his original motive, why not take Isolde with him originally after he had healed? Instead he returns to Cornwall and convinces Marke that he knows of the perfect bride for him: gorgeous, caring, loving. So he goes back to Ireland, a peace is made between the two nations, and as a sign that they're all friends now it is agreed Marke will take Isolde as a bride.

Why Tristan's surprise at Isolde's claim of affection for Morold? Two reasons I think. Although unspoken I think both realize they are madly in love with one another. Second, Tristan figures if she cared that much about Morold she would have stabbed him with the sword when she had the chance.



Parsifal1954 said:


> Yes, of course Tristan goes to Irland to win Isolde for King Marke. But this is on his second trip there. He fell in love with Isolde on his first trip that was the war between the two nations. This is exactly my point. If they have fell in love and as Isolde says, he has made promisses to her, why when he is back in his country, he insists in convincing King Marke to send him back to Irland to win Isolde's hand for the king?


Again though, regardless of the timeline the answer to your question remains the same. Why does he convince King Marke to let him go back and win Isolde as a bride for Marke? Because Tristan suppresses his true feelings and convinces himself that glory and fame and honor, not to mention his obligations to Marke, are more important. He is in the midst of a struggle with himself, between his conscious mind and his unconscious desires. Eventually however he comes to see those worldly values as false values.


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