# Favoritism: A flawed concept



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

The idea of "What's Your Favorite" is flawed, for numerous reasons.

It's like asking a mother who her favorite child is. I love all my "versions" for different reasons; I hear different things in each: different recording sound, certain things more audible, different tempos...

...plus, Shostakovich wrote 15 friggin' symphonies. If you work, who has time to absorb all 15, much less pick a "favorite?" For certain things, like Brahms 4, OK, but how many copies of The Ring do you have to buy before you can make a decision like that?

I guess I'm just complaining. What would be the alternative? How about just "General Discussion" of such-and-such? Makes much more sense.

Yet, the "polling" feature seems to encourage this approach.

Oh, and by the way: What's Your Favorite Hovhanness symphony, of the 67 he wrote? :lol: Not really...


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

I don't have a problem with people discussing their "favorites." I think most people recognize that favorites are fluid, which is why I like the approach of the "Favorites At The Moment" thread.

With regards to polls, I think a good rule of thumb is that if the total number of possible choices exceed 15, it should probably be an open ended discussion instead of a poll. Questions like "Favorite Concerto" would obviously be better as open threads as opposed to a poll. But, polls can be enjoyable time killers, and I've started some myself, so to each his own.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I think it's only worth comparing things in a similar style. And what if you think something is just equally good anyway. And if you just enjoy a piece of music, isn't that enough, do you worry about it not being as great as something else while listening to it? No. And what is a most played to one person may well not be the same to another, and consensus lists just tend towards the most famous things that people can have a kind of compromise agreement on, they are rarely enlightening at all.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I think you're wrong! 

I'll tell you why: listening to music is actually all about choices and choices infer _favourites _and _less-favourites_. Especially when you get down to the nitty, and indeed, the gritty. So I can have a flexible approach to what my favourite is at any time (#21 on Tuesday, but #20 on a blues day) and still consider it my prerogative to change and call each of them my favourite (unless it's Friday, when I like #27, or Sunday, when...).

At the end of the day, it's a game of opinions, innit? :tiphat:


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Kieran said:


> I think you're wrong!
> 
> I'll tell you why: listening to music is actually all about choices and choices infer _favourites _and _less-favourites_.


Yes and no. I think it is about choices (informed choices based on a growing listening experience). However I would put things into like and dislike, not really favourites and less favourites. If I like something then I think it is worth hearing again, and that is all that probably matters.

And I do find discussion of music in general more interesting than favourite lists on forums anyway. They rarely have much discussion.


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

The great thing about this forum and indeed most forums, is that there is room for everybody. Whilst I agree that nothing much can be learned from the favourite polls. They are fun to participate in. 
I've only been a member for a few weeks but the polls, favourite lists etc, have sent me away and let me re-investigate standard repertoire that I haven't paid much attention to for 10-20 years.
They are completely and utterly pointless but fun. And there are plenty of discussion threads too.

This is definitely the best forum of which I've ever been a member.

It's a vibrant, active place with plenty of room for all levels of interest.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

You mean there's no way to "idiot-proof" the idea of "favorites?" Okay, I'll go along, as long as our responses do not have to take such questions seriously, and there's plenty of room for deviation. But if I have to buy another Mahler cycle, I'll go broke...:lol:


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> You mean there's no way to "idiot-proof" the idea of "favorites?" Okay, I'll go along, as long as our responses do not have to take such questions seriously, and there's plenty of room for deviation. But if I have to buy another Mahler cycle, I'll go broke...:lol:


Okay, but if I maybe so bold, I recommend Bruno Walter's version of the Fifth. That's my favourite...


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I suppose people expressing what there favourites are is a way of showing their enthusiasm for something.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Sure (addressing OP), but on a place like TC it is a fun game among friends. At home listening I play favourites all the time, don't most of us? 

I'd really like to meet someone who have submitted to an objective autonomous system for music selection! 

/ptr


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

ptr said:


> At home listening I play favourites all the time, don't most of us?


But who else actually cares what our favourites are lol. Everybody has their own favourites. Overplay them though and you get tired of them, so I think it's best to mix it up with other stuff you like so that some new pieces become stronger with familiarity.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

starry said:


> I suppose people expressing what there favourites are is a way of showing their enthusiasm for something.


Exactly, but also, for those of us without a great knowledge of classical, but an enthusiasm to learn, reading about people's choices helps us when we branch out a little...


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I think the analogy of a parent not having favourite children is not an apt one. Music styles - there are some that I strongly dislike; some that I've come to like; some that I used to like, and so on. The parent-child metaphor can't cope with this.

I agree with the posters who have said it's a fun way to discuss what we like - maybe even why we like it - or to enjoy joking, as in the wigs vs avant garde controversy. Plus it has increased my knowledge of classical music.
Mind you, almost anything would...


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Wait, with regards to the parenting analogy, are we just accepting as a given that parents _don't_ have favorites from among their children?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Ingenue said:


> I think the analogy of a parent not having favourite children is not an apt one. Music styles - there are some that I strongly dislike; some that I've come to like; some that I used to like, and so on. The parent-child metaphor can't cope with this.


Well, I used the "favorite child" metaphor for situations when you have more than one version of a work you really like, such as Mahler symphonies, piano works, operas, etc..._not_ music styles. I don't want to force anyone to feel guilty about not loving certain music produced after 1900 or anything like that.

I like my "children" for different reasons, and I appreciate every version on its unique merits; if I really dislike it, I'll put it up for adoption for some other poor schmuck in the used CD bin...


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Oh, and by the way: What's Your Favorite Hovhanness symphony, of the 67 he wrote? :lol: Not really...


Well, I rather liked all the ones I have heard thus far, namely two or three of them. 

But for once I agree: I am also very skeptical of the idea of a favourite work or a favourite colour. What does that really mean? If my favourite colour is purple, does that mean I would like the entire world and everything in it and the sky and all the stars to be purple?

No, what music I put on depends on what I am in the mood for. It is certainly true that I am more often in the mood for some pieces than for others, but every so often, nothing but one particular and quite minor and obscure work will do.

I have dabbled a bit in guitar. Never made any progress, due to laziness and lack of time, but it did give me a glimpse into a whole parallel universe of minor, humble, unassuming but very attractive little pieces by composers I had never heard of before. I think it was at that time that my decades-long romance with Beethoven began to unravel.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

The favorite polls or discussions are mostly for fun, but I find them interesting as well. I enjoy seeing how much variation exists amongst listeners.

But, for some of us, favorite polls or "greatest" lists can be immensely valuable. People's tastes clearly vary, but I have found from experience that _my_ tastes seem to line up fairly closely with the "average person" (i.e. average of listeners' preferences). When I look at lists of greatest composers, favorite piano concertos, favorite works of Debussy, etc., I find that my personal favorites, in general, align reasonably closely with the lists. That, in itself, is not important, but it can be useful for exploring new composers or types of music. I always check people's recommendations in the composer guestbooks and the various TC lists when starting a new composer. Others may not benefit as much as I when exploring, but I'm very thankful for such lists.

Oh, and Hovhaness's symphony 50 is my favorite.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

mmsbls said:


> Oh, and Hovhaness's symphony 50 is my favorite.


But only of what you have heard. Or have you heard all of them?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I have only heard a few, but it is definitely my favorite. I realize that "favorite" can be defined or viewed in a number of ways so I wrote that as a joke (although in my view, it is true).


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think in real life we don't "pick" favorites. We just "have" favorites, and it's not something we choose...it's just the way we are. We might well have a "favorite" Hovhaness symphony, and this has nothing to do with whether we've heard all of them. It's still valid and in fact unavoidable.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*I am with Millions*

I am with Millions on this one.

Actually I am more interested in reading such threads than actually participating in them. Sometimes I pick up a nugget or two.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ptr said:


> I'd really like to meet someone who have submitted to an objective autonomous system for music selection!  /ptr


During the first day of class of a college geology course which was taught by a retired Army Engineer, that teacher mentioned the grade curve, named the point-spectrum for grades A, B, C, D and failing, then said that grade curve was "Completely impartial and subjective." ... a two beat pause was all that passed before a guy in the back of the room said, "Yeah, right. Who made it up?" <g>


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## Guest (May 11, 2013)

Kieran said:


> [L]istening to music is actually all about choices and choices infer _favourites _and _less-favourites_.


Is it? I certainly do not find it to be so. Listening to music is actually all about paying attention to sounds. And paying attention implies (infer means something else, something that does not make sense with "choices ... favorites and less-favorites") that you are focussed on what's happening, not making choices. Perhaps it can include comparisons, yes. I can see that. But making choices? Like choosing to listen to the low frequencies but not the high ones? Choosing to listen to the sawtooth waves but not the square ones?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starry said:


> But only of what you have heard. Or have you heard all of them?


Exactly; so "favorite" becomes the boundary of one's ignorance, or the extent of one's knowledge.


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## Jimm (Jun 29, 2012)

some guy said:


> Listening to music is actually all about paying attention to sounds. And paying attention implies (infer means something else, something that does not make sense with "choices ... favorites and less-favorites") that you are focussed on what's happening, not making choices.


Listening to music can be so much more engaging than just "paying attention to sounds" .. an intelligent musician or listener will ask themselves a whole plethora of musical questions as the music is unfolding, or on a repeated hearings if the music has layers to it and engages enough and isn't just about "sounds".


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

some guy said:


> Is it? I certainly do not find it to be so. Listening to music is actually all about paying attention to sounds. And paying attention implies (infer means something else, something that does not make sense with "choices ... favorites and less-favorites") that you are focussed on what's happening, not making choices. Perhaps it can include comparisons, yes. I can see that. But making choices? Like choosing to listen to the low frequencies but not the high ones? Choosing to listen to the sawtooth waves but not the square ones?


Ah okay, maybe infer was the wrong word. Or maybe it wasn't. But you knew what I meant, right? Good. And when we listen, we choose what music we listen to, right? Of course, because it doesn't happen randomly that a cd pops into the player...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Semantics storm in a tea - cup (maybe even just the saucer, where a little wave can tsunami over the edge catalyzed by the least little breeze.)

Favorite: something you favor. 
I don't think there is any other coloring to the word re: "highly attentive levels of discernment applied" or any thing like. That which you favor, is favored = favorite. No logic, reasoning, explanatory expositions or arguments needed. 
"I like that." "Why?" "Because I like that."

"Best" however, can jerk my chain re: polls. (Whether it is present or not in polls about the best, I always hear the rest of that which often accompanies "Best" in such online entries, _"...like, ever.")_ LOL>

"Best" might just involve a lot of attentiveness and degree of discernment in the process of determining what is Best.

Both words are, originally used as a superlative and are singular (i.e. you can only have one of each! Sorry, no seconds allowed  and both have now slipped into a very different usage.

Isn't it an egocentric and false assumption that all who listen to classical music are as wholly zealous and informed as the more zealous and informed are?

Isn't it another false assumption that every listener is giving everything they listen to 100% attention to the same degree the zealous and highly informed do?

If you are a listener so deep in as that, it takes but a glance outside the immediate circle of your interests to realize not many in the world are going to have the same information, education, or formulated and practiced sets of criteria about what they think about music -- any music, and perhaps will never have the same degree of investment in listening.

The only part of the OP I can wholly agree with is that it is a form of complaining, and that to so complain once in a while is within that range of reasonability accountable as _human_


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

I keep a list of composers I consider myself reasonably familiar with. If asked, I can sort them based on what I'm feeling at that particular moment.

I tried to do something similar for a "20 favourite pieces" thread a while ago. I found I had to start with a list of 200 pieces or so, and I gave up after about the sixth round of adding in favourite pieces I forgot. I think I wound up with about 500 pieces on the list.

I'm just no good at picking favourite pieces of music, apparently.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

For me, there's nothing wrong with discussing favorite works, because I'll always have favorite works and when I discuss these works it's because they have meant something to me whether emotionally or intellectually or both. How can anyone be faulted for discussing music they love? On the other side of the coin, I don't think people should let any kind of pre-conceived notion dampen their eagerness and willingness to hear new music. I had this problem many years ago, but I've been able to jump this treacherous hurdle.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Semantics storm in a tea - cup (maybe even just the saucer, where a little wave can tsunami over the edge catalyzed by the least little breeze.)
> 
> Favorite: something you favor.
> I don't think there is any other coloring to the word re: "highly attentive levels of discernment applied" or any thing like. That which you favor, is favored = favorite. No logic, reasoning, explanatory expositions or arguments needed.
> ...


Gosh, if I'd known the OP would be subjected to this high level of scrutiny, then i would have pondered this subject for a day or two. At least, I made the grade of being "human."

So when did this turn into a semantics seminar? Or maybe I'm wrong; maybe _he's_ just complaining.


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## Guest (May 13, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> It's like asking a mother who her favorite child is.


No, it's nothing like.



millionrainbows said:


> I don't want to force anyone to feel guilty about not loving certain music produced after 1900 or anything like that.


Good. But what's 'favourite' got to do with 'forcing'?



starry said:


> But only of what you have heard. Or have you heard all of them?


What does it matter? If my 'favourite' Beethoven symphony is the one I prefer out of the two I've heard, it's still a valid opinion.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> What does it matter? If my 'favourite' Beethoven symphony is the one I prefer out of the two I've heard, it's still valid.


Ha! It's only valid if it agrees with my opinion. Certificates of validity are available at a nominal cost.


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## Guest (May 13, 2013)

KenOC said:


> "Almost all absurdity of conduct arises from the imitation of those *who *we cannot resemble."​


I can't believe that Dr Johnson would not have used 'whom'!

That's my opinion, and one of my favourites to boot!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hey, I got it from brainyquote! If you can't trust them... ;-)


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Actually, this is a holdover from early exposure to pop culture. "Who's your favorite Monkee? What's his favorite color?"


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> What does it matter? If my 'favourite' Beethoven symphony is the one I prefer out of the two I've heard, it's still a valid opinion.


Oh, we're not questioning your selection as "good" or "bad;" we just want to know. So tell us, what's your favorite Hovhanness symphony? I'm partial to No. 53 myself; although 47, 23, and 66 are strong contenders...


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## Guest (May 13, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Oh, we're not questioning your selection as "good" or "bad;" we just want to know. So tell us, what's your favorite Hovhanness symphony? I'm partial to No. 53 myself; although 47, 23, and 66 are strong contenders...


I've never listened to a single one, and I've too much else on my list to worry about a minor composer with an annoying name...

See, it works with 'prejudice' too!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> I've never listened to a single one, and I've too much else on my list to worry about a minor composer with an annoying name...
> 
> See, it works with 'prejudice' too!


So, your answer to the question "Of the 67 Symphonies that Hovhaness composed, what is your favorite?" your answer would be, "I don't have a favorite. Like a bad mother with 67 children, I reject them all equally." :lol:


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

just pick a song that is sentimental or interesting to you.

it doesn't mean the other ones are less.


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## Guest (May 14, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> So, your answer to the question "Of the 67 Symphonies that Hovhaness composed, what is your favorite?" your answer would be, "I don't have a favorite. Like a bad mother with 67 children, I reject them all equally." :lol:


I'm beginning to think you're Vivaldi's alter ego, with this line in absurd questioning.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> So, your answer to the question "Of the 67 Symphonies that Hovhaness composed, what is your favorite?" your answer would be, "I don't have a favorite. Like a bad mother with 67 children, I reject them all equally." :lol:


Aside from the deep logical lapses here, you might consider that all those 67 children may be hateful, rude, and otherwise deficient in character, and are rightfully rejected. Darwin will have his way.


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