# Eroica



## Hazel (Oct 23, 2010)

I tried Search to no avail. Has there been a discussion of Beethoven's Eroica here? If yes, could someone please direct me to it? There is no sense in doing it twice. I have just listened to it on youtube and then read very negative comments about the composition. I'd like to know what you all think of it. I do notice that none of my Beethoven CDs include it for whatever reason.

Thank you.


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## Stasou (Apr 23, 2011)

This doesn't really have much to do with the composition itself, but if people are talking bad about _Beethoven_ on Youtube, they are most likely internet trolls and should be ignored.


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## Stasou (Apr 23, 2011)

Anyway, I personally love the symphony. Who were the reviews written by? If they were written in Beethoven's time, then they are fairly common. After hearing the 7th Symphony, Weber reportedly said that Beethoven was "quite ripe for the madhouse." I haven't read any of these about Eroica, but they're probably out there.


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## haydnfan (Apr 13, 2011)

The Eroica is my favorite of Beethoven's symphonies. What raw, powerful emotion channeled into a symphony that broke all conceptions of what a symphony is.


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## Hazel (Oct 23, 2010)

Thank you. Yes, I suppose they are trolls but one sounded as though he did know his music. Most were just offhand comments. E.g. "It sounds as though he just composed it because he was required to write a symphony." Another was saying he could make nothing of the phrases and that they didn't seem to connect.

As I said, I wanted to see what the experts think of it before I go looking for it. I have several Beethoven CDs and none include it which did make me wonder.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

If you do just a little exploration you'll find that it is widely recognized as one of the best three of his symphonies...to many experts it is regarded as his very best so don't worry about the youtubers and well, as far as the Beethoven cd's (not really sure what that means, i guess compilations) just look a little more and you'll find thousands...just get yourself a good version...i'm sure many folks here will be glad to recommend...lots of good recent releases...enjoy


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

It was ranked by over 30 members here as the 3rd 'greatest' symphony. (check my signature)


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## Hazel (Oct 23, 2010)

Thanks. I cannot imagine a Beethoven composition not being "good". It might be one we don't personally like but that doesn't mean it isn't good composition. Nice to hear the positive responses here.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Youtube comments are, as a general rule, ridiculous. Eroica is terrific.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B00000I0W0/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Hazel said:


> Thanks. I cannot imagine a Beethoven composition not being "good". It might be one we don't personally like but that doesn't mean it isn't good composition. Nice to hear the positive responses here.


There are some Beethoven turkeys (and I'm judging them artistically, not on whether I like them or not). The ones that come immediately to mind are:

_Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage_ (_Meeresstille und glückliche Fahrt_) - Cantata Op 112 (one of those puzzlingly poor works from Beethoven's late-middle period)
_Cantata On The Death Of Joseph II_, WoO 87 (an early work which shows only brief flashes of later genius)
_Christ on the Mount of Olives_ (_Christus am Ölberge_)(despite its opus number of 85, it dates from 1802 and is a rather tedious, overlong piece)
_The Consecration of the House_ (_Die Weihe des Hauses_) - Overture Op 124 (simply uninspired)
_King Stephen_ - Incidental Music Op 117 (oh dear!)
_Musik zu einem Ritterballett_, WoO 1 (a very early work, admittedly, but still not nearly one of his best)
_Wellingtons Sieg_ (usually known as the _Battle Symphony_), op 91


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I see Eroica as sort of an experiement in expanding the boundaries of the symphony, but Ludvig doesn't quite hone the "new symphinc expression" until the 5th. From there on, Beethoven seems to have found his footing and he truly became of one the finest crafters of the symphony of all time.

Really, every symphony he wrote has the stamp of genius, even the First. But again, for me, the Eroica is more of a turning point and the truly great stuff came after.


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## Hazel (Oct 23, 2010)

Delicious Manager said:


> There are some Beethoven turkeys (and I'm judging them artistically, not on whether I like them or not). The ones that come immediately to mind are:
> 
> _Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage_ (_Meeresstille und glückliche Fahrt_) - Cantata Op 112 (one of those puzzlingly poor works from Beethoven's late-middle period)
> _Cantata On The Death Of Joseph II_, WoO 87 (an early work which shows only brief flashes of later genius)
> ...


Is that "Wellington's Siege" as in Waterloo?


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Hazel said:


> Thanks. I cannot imagine a Beethoven composition not being "good".


Well, maybe Choral Fantasy.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Tapkaara said:


> I see Eroica as sort of an experiement in expanding the boundaries of the symphony, but Ludvig doesn't quite hone the "new symphinc expression" until the 5th. From there on, Beethoven seems to have found his footing and he truly became of one the finest crafters of the symphony of all time.
> 
> Really, every symphony he wrote has the stamp of genius, even the First. But again, for me, the Eroica is more of a turning point and the truly great stuff came after.


The first is very cute one, completely classical, a lot of humor (the codas at the beginning). I bet Mozart would have enjoyed it.
I dont get why his symphonies are considered the best, I do enjoy them but except the fifth I just dont know what is there that is SO genius.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Eroica is brilliant classical statue of great hero, it describe all aspects of heroic struggle - in diffrent context than the 5th which is more about personal struggle with fate while the 3rd is a monument glorifying heroism, it's most beautiful apotheosis of it's spirit. I always think of it as a statue even in a literal way, if this symphony would take material shape it would become a pure, resplendent statue of great man riding a horse in majestic posture, with his head crowned with laurel wreath and his right hand pointing the direction to glory and rightfulness. This vision haunts me especially in the first part of the coda (first bars after the silent part).


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Vaneyes said:


> Well, maybe Choral Fantasy.


Have you heard the Yudina recording?


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Pieck said:


> The first is very cute one, completely classical, a lot of humor (the codas at the beginning). I bet Mozart would have enjoyed it.
> I dont get why his symphonies are considered the best, I do enjoy them but except the fifth I just dont know what is there that is SO genius.


Well, maybe not _completely_ classical... The harmonic progressions at the beginning were pretty atypical for their time and people reacted accordingly ("Okay, we're in F. No, we're in ...G? _What the hell is he doing?!_").

What makes Beethoven's symphonies unique to me is the way he manages to combine incredibly tight construction with very thorough and varied development. He will often take just a couple tiny motivic elements and build a whole symphony on them that somehow manages to avoid becoming repetitive and dull and contains no extraneous elements (and I think the first movement of _Eroica_ examplifies this practice better than anything else he wrote before the 5th symphony, which is perhaps its pinnacle). The _economy_ of his composition is astounding, the way he can say so much with the most basic material, and that, for me, is a main mark of Beethoven's genius. In his best works, every turn the piece takes just sounds inevitable.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Aramis said:


> Eroica is brilliant classical statue of great hero, it describe all aspects of heroic struggle - in diffrent context than the 5th which is more about personal struggle with fate while the 3rd is a monument glorifying heroism, it's most beautiful apotheosis of it's spirit. I always think of it as a statue even in a literal way, if this symphony would take material shape it would become a pure, resplendent statue of great man riding a horse in majestic posture, with his head crowned with laurel wreath and his right hand pointing the direction to glory and rightfulness. This vision haunts me especially in the first part of the coda (first bars after the silent part).


Pretty cool description, actually.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Have you heard the Yudina recording?


No, and thank you for your recommendation, but I'm really tuned out of that work, as well as, Wellingtons, Missa solemnis, Eroica Variations, Bagatelles, Fur Elise, and others.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

http://www.amazon.com/Eroica-Ian-Hart/dp/B000936H7S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306448207&sr=8-1

Watch this movie and you'll understand the Eroica a lot better. It is one of the most significant compositions in the history of Art Music as it presents the concept of music as self-portrait and confessional. Music no longer is viewed as entertainment for the nobility, but rather a vehicle for the self expression of the composer. It shatters so many conventional rules which is why it was panned on the first hearing. Listen to Robert Greenburg's Teaching Company lectures on the Eroica and you'll be in love with its structure and genius.


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## Romantic Geek (Dec 25, 2009)

Hazel said:


> Thanks. I cannot imagine a Beethoven composition not being "good". It might be one we don't personally like but that doesn't mean it isn't good composition. Nice to hear the positive responses here.


Well...there's that Sonata in G that everyone wants to forget


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## Romantic Geek (Dec 25, 2009)

Hazel said:


> I tried Search to no avail. Has there been a discussion of Beethoven's Eroica here? If yes, could someone please direct me to it? There is no sense in doing it twice. I have just listened to it on youtube and then read very negative comments about the composition. I'd like to know what you all think of it. I do notice that none of my Beethoven CDs include it for whatever reason.
> 
> Thank you.


WHILE they're probably just internet trolls, it's not like they don't have precedent. The premiere for Eroica went horrifically - many audience members complained about the length. Subsequently, Beethoven was peeved there wasn't more applause. Eroica definitely limped out of the gate.

Buuuuuuuuut, as emiellucifuge said, public opinion today is certainly much different!


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

I recall reading online that the "Eroica" is probably one significant reason why Beethoven is considered a romantic. This may be seen in light of the thread that discusses that topic.


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## Hazel (Oct 23, 2010)

Romantic Geek said:


> WHILE they're probably just internet trolls, it's not like they don't have precedent. The premiere for Eroica went horrifically - many audience members complained about the length. Subsequently, Beethoven was peeved there wasn't more applause. Eroica definitely limped out of the gate.
> 
> Buuuuuuuuut, as emiellucifuge said, public opinion today is certainly much different!


I felt a disconnectedness in it but that was only "felt". Maybe I just need to (1) have a good recording of it and (2) know how to listen to it. Youtubes are not places to judge anything as I find every once in a while.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Hazel said:


> I felt a disconnectedness in it but that was only "felt". Maybe I just need to (1) have a good recording of it and (2) know how to listen to it. Youtubes are not places to judge anything as I find every once in a while.


Re 1. I like Hanover Band/Goodman (Nimbus, rec 1987), smaller forces, original instruments, very musical, detailed, and BPO/Karajan (DG, rec 1963), thrilling, big band sound, very good remastering for 2007 reissue shown below. Historical: Toscanini '53, Scherchen '58.

Re 2. This link for Philadelphia Orchestra program notes may be helpful...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5456722


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## Hazel (Oct 23, 2010)

Thank you for recommendation.


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## Romantic Geek (Dec 25, 2009)

I have the Karajan (packaged differently - in a set of the complete Beethoven symphonies.) It's a great recording.

I think Eroica is tough to swallow especially if you're not accustomed to large works. It's a natural reaction. It's a long symphony. Beethoven was a master at introducing motives and exploring them. The opening to the Eroica is iconic. Try listening to how he uses that chromatic C# in the rest of the piece. That's what I like doing!


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## Hazel (Oct 23, 2010)

Thank you. I'll be checking it out next week.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

The Hanover Band under Goodman is what Brits (and Aussies, apparently) call "scrappy". Old hillbillies call it poor ensemble.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Eroica changed music - indeed art - in a way nothing else ever did.
You look at everything that went before Eroica, and then - bang; there it is.
An unprecedented work in every respect.
I played in a performance last November; what a staggering work it is.
Just remarkable.
GG


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

GraemeG said:


> Eroica changed music - indeed art - in a way nothing else ever did.
> You look at everything that went before Eroica, and then - bang; there it is.
> An unprecedented work in every respect.
> I played in a performance last November; what a staggering work it is.
> ...


Hi GraemeG; I was really taken by your above comment re: Eroica. Could you explain it further--in "laymens' terms"--to a non-musician such as myself? Thanks.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

samurai said:


> Hi GraemeG; I was really taken by your above comment re: Eroica. Could you explain it further--in "laymens' terms"--to a non-musician such as myself? Thanks.


Second the request.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

GraemeG said:


> Eroica changed music - indeed art - in a way nothing else ever did.
> You look at everything that went before Eroica, and then - bang; there it is.
> An unprecedented work in every respect.
> I played in a performance last November; what a staggering work it is.
> ...


I see this quote comes from June 2009 and so I will take the liberty of responding to the two posters above who would like to know 'why' the _Eroica_ Symphony was so revolutionary.

Firstly, one needs to put the _Eroica_ Symphony into some kind of historical context. It was written in 1804. Mozart had been dead only 13 years and Haydn was still alive and occasionally writing music. Beethoven's new symphony was the largest in scale that had ever been written up to that time - many more bars (measures) of music and nearly 50 minutes of music (more than 10 minutes longer than Mozart's _Jupiter_ Symphony with all the repeats). Its melodic and harmonic language were very advanced for the time, with Beethoven using some VERY dissonant harmonies (not always traditionally resolved) and a musical language more overtly emotional than the world has hitherto seen (heard). While not unique in symphonic repertoire up to that time, Beethoven's use of 'theme and variations' form in the massive finale manipulated the simplest of musical ideas in ways that hadn't been dreamt of before - including an extended slow variation featuring a solo oboe just before the _coda _which was quite unheard of at that time.

In its time, Beethoven's _Eroica_ Symphony was a startling and revolutionary as Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_ was in 1913.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks, DM. I knew that the symphony _felt_ revolutionary for its time; now I have an explanation for the feeling.


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## Hazel (Oct 23, 2010)

Thank you also, DM. That is worth having when listening to it.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Yes, thanks DM, that's a very good summary.
There's interesting personal biography there too; I think beethoven completed the Heiligenstadt Testament around the time he completed the second symphony - a heartfelt personal docmument addressed to his brother - and Eroica heralded the completely new direction his music was to take.
The first movement of Eroica alone is the length of most of Haydn's & Mozart's symphonies; the scale and breadth of the work are unprecedented.
There's a heap of web-info on Eroica, a little googling will bring you a mass of information.
cheers,
GG


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Thank You, DM and GG; your explanations were very helpful--and simply put--so that even a lame-brain such as myself is able to understand them. I shall indeed do some more exploring on this subject, as you so wisely have suggested.


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## Curiosity (Jul 10, 2011)

As far as I'm concerned the Eroica is the finest piece of music _ever_ written, in any format. It's extremely complex but still incredibly well-structured and coherent, it's full of remarkable inventiveness, and unparalleled drama. The fugal passage of the 2nd movement is for me the most emotionally powerful moment in music.

Through my first three or four listens, this symphony did nothing for me. It was only once I began to grasp it's structure that I could appreciate it's genius. Going through this analysis might help you appreciate it more, it certainly helped me.

http://www.beethovenseroica.com/Pg3_anal/1mov/1m02.htm


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## Hazel (Oct 23, 2010)

Curiosity said:


> As far as I'm concerned the Eroica is the finest piece of music _ever_ written, in any format. It's extremely complex but still incredibly well-structured and coherent, it's full of remarkable inventiveness, and unparalleled drama. The fugal passage of the 2nd movement is for me the most emotionally powerful moment in music.
> 
> Through my first three or four listens, this symphony did nothing for me. It was only once I began to grasp it's structure that I could appreciate it's genius. Going through this analysis might help you appreciate it more, it certainly helped me.
> 
> http://www.beethovenseroica.com/Pg3_anal/1mov/1m02.htm


I agree. It grows on you.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

It's my favourite LvB symphony. Someone in TalkClassical (or was it some other forum?) once wrote that it includes more drama than most operas, and that's the reason why I like it so much. To me it feels that the symphony is in conflict with itself - and that is perhaps my favourite thing in all music: the sense that the music is in conflict with itself. "Eroica" seems to wrestle with all the big questions. Is there a reason to live at all? Will we always be corrupted by our deeds and our small-mindedness? Does anything matter? Should we behave ethically? And then - let me quote Joseph Campbell - "The hero has died as a modern man; but as eternal man - universal man - he has been reborn". Man remains imperfect and fallible, but the idea of heroism - that is, behaving ethically - exists, and we can strive towards it. If we are to be more than beasts, life has to be ethical (unselfish), but that makes life tragic. And that is how things should be.

Sorry for the rant! I'm not a very musical person so I picture music a little bit differently, with thoughts like these.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

A worthy thread to be resurrected. 
I just read Beethoven the Creator by Romain Rolland. It appears to be an extremely well researched book and used much original source material. Anyway, the book says that Beethoven was asked which of the first eight symphonies was his favorite and that Beethoven replied that his favorite is the Eroica. Right now (and this could change someday when I explore the other symphonies more, Eroica and the Ninth are my favorite Beethoven symphonies, probably followed by the Fifth. Rolland's book considers a short and very creative period in Beethoven's life and three monumental works: Appassionata, Eroica, and Leonora. I highly recommend the book as it is what got me to pull my Eroica off the shelf and really start listening to it, as well as the Appassionata. (Fidelio I was already onto.)


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

I have posted before that it is on my short list of "greatest symphony ever written.". The first movement is more imaginatively dramatic than anything written before, and few things written since. The funeral march is one of the most gut-wrenching pieces ever written. No other work so accurately captures the conflicting cascade of emotions that accompanies mourning. Each movement expands upon and solidifies musical experiments that Beethoven had been exploring earlier (especially the expressive possibilities of fugal writing), and no work more expanded the expressive possibilities of music in general in all of music. Completely and utterly masterful.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

My favorite movement is the delightful scherzo.
If I could write an email to Beethoven it would be "Keep it pithy!"


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## Adagietto (Jun 11, 2012)

If you want a different take on the 3rd, there is an arrangement for Piano Quartet. I'm listening to the first two movements, and am enjoying it so far.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Ah yes, piano quartet, and I think I saw one for chamber orchestra. Then there is Liszt's piano transcription of the Eroica and all the other Beethoven symphonies.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I couldn't imagine listening to such reductions. The only ones I could tolerate involve brandy.


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