# Opera: Mozart vs. Everyone



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Just curious what proportion of favorite operas Mozart occupies for TC members.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I've made it my personal mission to learn about & listen to Mozart's operas this past 2 weeks, but try as I might I can't sit through them. I'm sure the music is spectacular, but it doesn't stir any passion or excitement inside of me, so I've come to the conclusion that Mozart simply isn't for me unfortunately.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

About 20%; Handel's likely another 20%.


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## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

I have a weird relationship with Mozart. _Figaro_ is really the only one I know well and listen to frequently, but I'm absolutely in love with it. One of my most favorite operas. I can't say the same about the others, though, for whatever reason.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mozart is simply the greatest of all opera composers and the one we should listen to the most.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Mozart is simply the greatest of all opera composers and the one we should listen to the most.


Mozart is simply one of the great opera composers and we should listen to whatever we damn well please.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Mozart is simply one of the great opera composers and we should listen to whatever we damn well please.


I am pleased to listen to Mozart! :tippet:

Beecham said that if he were a dictator he would make it compulsory that everyone listened to at least 15 minutes of Mozart a day!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I am pleased to listen to Mozart! :tippet:
> 
> Beecham said that if he were a dictator he would make it compulsory that everyone listened to at least 15 minutes of Mozart a day!


I would stop up my ears just to spite Beecham!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I am pleased to listen to Mozart! :tippet:
> 
> Beecham said that if he were a dictator he would make it compulsory that everyone listened to at least 15 minutes of Mozart a day!


Beecham said a lot of silly, and frequently insulting, things so that everyone would think him wonderfully witty. He also turned Handel into Cecil B. DeMille. Who cares about Beecham?


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Don Giovanni is my favorite, most of the others I seldom listen to. I know a lot of them quite well, but usually I listen to Verdi, Wagner, Strauss, Rossini, Puccini, Donizetti, I just don't usually wake up and go, " You know, a nice Mozart opera would go well with this coffee."

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Bonetan said:


> I've made it my personal mission to learn about & listen to Mozart's operas this past 2 weeks, but try as I might I can't sit through them. I'm sure the music is spectacular, but it doesn't stir any passion or excitement inside of me, so I've come to the conclusion that Mozart simply isn't for me unfortunately.


Replace 2 weeks with 20+ years in my case. Yes there are some great tunes and sometimes exquisite singing, but these works just aren't what opera is about for me.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Mozart is simply one of the great opera composers and we should listen to whatever we damn well please.


No, Mozart IS the greatest opera composer who ever lived. Period! You cannot make an argument for any other composer reaching the heights he reached. This is not a fallacy but a fact. I love Mozart's operas, I love the Russians, and Wagner, and Verdi is probably whom I listen to most, but Mozart is the singular greatest opera composer.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Beecham said a lot of silly, and frequently insulting, things so that everyone would think him wonderfully witty. He also turned Handel into Cecil B. DeMille. Who cares about Beecham?


Yes he did. But remember he was a musical genius as anyone who knows anything about conducting will admit. Interesting that his irreverent wit was a mask for an inherent shyness. Sorry you don't like Beecham's Handel. I always save it for when I have HIP bores to visit and I want to get rid of them! :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

gellio said:


> No, Mozart IS the greatest opera composer who ever lived. Period! You cannot make an argument for any other composer reaching the heights he reached. This is not a fallacy but a fact. I love Mozart's operas, I love the Russians, and Wagner, and Verdi is probably whom I listen to most, but Mozart is the singular greatest opera composer.


Heh heh. You haven't made an argument for those "heights" either.

I haven't argued for anything, but have only questioned the absolutist dogma propounded by others. "Mozart is the greatest" this or that is a tiresome cliche which never impressed me. I'd say that I'm still waiting for proof, including a definition of "great," but I know there is no proof forthcoming. There is only a meme, and a contingent that likes to invoke it to "justify" their enthusiasm.

Well, nice try, no cigar.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

gellio said:


> No, Mozart IS the greatest opera composer who ever lived. Period! You cannot make an argument for any other composer reaching the heights he reached. This is not a fallacy but a fact. I love Mozart's operas, I love the Russians, and Wagner, and Verdi is probably whom I listen to most, but Mozart is the singular greatest opera composer.


Mozart reached heigher than Tristan & The Ring? Insanity!!!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

gellio said:


> No, Mozart IS the greatest opera composer who ever lived. Period! You cannot make an argument for any other composer reaching the heights he reached. *This is not a fallacy but a fact*. I love Mozart's operas, I love the Russians, and Wagner, and Verdi is probably whom I listen to most, but Mozart is the singular greatest opera composer.


It is actually neither, just your personal opinion. While others may share it, that doesn't make it a fact.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I don't listen to opera as much as I used to, but when I do, it's usually Mozart.

I'd say more than 65%.

The rest? Operas like Verdi's Simon Boccanegra. 

In other words, operas that do not bloviate and waste my time and intelligence with preposterous fairy tales and blasphemous inventions.


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

I'm afraid my two favourite opera composers are Mozart and Verdi (not very original I think).

I'd say that in broad terms I listen to Mozart operas round 40-50%.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

To figure out the percentage, I'm going to post a list of my top ten operas and then I'll see how many of them are by Mozart...

1. Bizet: Carmen
2. Mozart: Don Giovanni
3. Wagner: Tristan und Isolde
4. Saint-Saens: Samson et Dalila
5. Mozart: Magic Flute
6. Debussy: Pelleas et Melisande
7. Mozart: Marriage of Figaro
8. Beethoven: Fidelio
9. Mozart: Cosi fan tutte
10. Wagner: Parsifal

OK, that's four out of ten - so that's 40% Mozart, 60% other composers.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Heh heh. You haven't made an argument for those "heights" either.
> 
> I haven't argued for anything, but have only questioned the absolutist dogma propounded by others. "Mozart is the greatest" this or that is a tiresome cliche which never impressed me. I'd say that I'm still waiting for proof, including a definition of "great," but I know there is no proof forthcoming. There is only a meme, and a contingent that likes to invoke it to "justify" their enthusiasm.
> 
> Well, nice try, no cigar.[/QUOT


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

lluissineu said:


> I'm afraid my two favourite opera composers are Mozart and Verdi (not very original I think).
> 
> I'd say that in broad terms I listen to Mozart operas round 40-50%.


Mine too, and I'd add Wagner to the mix. My favorite composer is Beethoven, but when it comes to opera I like Mozart, Verdi and Wagner


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

lluissineu said:


> I'm afraid my two favourite opera composers are Mozart and Verdi (not very original I think).
> 
> I'd say that in broad terms I listen to Mozart operas round 40-50%.


For pure opera, who else but Mozart & Verdi?

Music drama? Translation: Badly needed men's room time.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hpowders said:


> For pure opera, who else but Mozart & Verdi?
> 
> Music drama? Translation: Badly needed men's room time.


I'm sure you're an authority on that last. Your pothth alwathe contain a lot of pith.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

hpowders said:


> For pure opera, who else but Mozart & Verdi?
> 
> Music drama? Translation: Badly needed men's room time.


I'm not anti-country but I am pro-state.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Your pothth alwathe contain a lot of pith.


Both pith and vinegar, I'm thure.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

hpowders said:


> For pure opera, who else but Mozart & Verdi?
> 
> Music drama? Translation: Badly needed men's room time.


This is not a sentiment I hear from people in the opera biz. Are most of us here musicians of some kind? (I do recall Woodduck is a singer). I wonder if it makes any difference?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Both pith and vinegar, I'm thure.


Thertainly. .....


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> This is not a sentiment I hear from people in the opera biz. Are most of us here musicians of some kind? (I do recall Woodduck is a singer). I wonder if it makes any difference?


To post here, one needs to be in the opera biz? Sorry. I didn't see that warning pre-requisite. Let me get my glasses.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

hpowders said:


> To post here, one needs to be in the opera biz? Sorry. I didn't see that warning pre-requisite. Let me get my glasses.


No, no, I apologize, that's not what I meant at all! I was just realizing that opinions on these composers are somewhat different from the accompanist/singers/conductors I've met versus posters on Talk Classical & I wondered why that is...I'm sorry if that came out wrong!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I like my Mozart, sometimes more frequently then other composer , depends on my mood but the most I will listen to is Cosi.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> No, no, I apologize, that's not what I meant at all! I was just realizing that opinions on these composers are somewhat different from the accompanist/singers/conductors I've met versus posters on Talk Classical & I wondered why that is...I'm sorry if that came out wrong!


What opinions do you encounter from those musicians, and how do they differ from what you find here?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> What opinions do you encounter from those musicians, and how do they differ from what you find here?


I think because Mozart roles are much easier to learn & sing, & easy for accompanist to sight read, Wagner is seen as requiring a higher level of talent & artistry. But I suppose none of that means Wagner is better. However, I've never heard Wagner dismissed as HP did...from studying scores & seeing what was put to page, it makes it hard for me to understand someone saying Don G or Figaro is a higher height than Tristan or the Ring. Especially since Wagner wrote the poetry as well.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> Mozart reached heigher than Tristan & The Ring? Insanity!!!


Frankly it is quite sane to say he did.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> I think because Mozart roles are much easier to learn & sing, & easy for accompanist to sight read, Wagner is seen as requiring a higher level of talent & artistry. But I suppose none of that means Wagner is better. However, I've never heard Wagner dismissed as HP did...from studying scores & seeing what was put to page, it makes it hard for me to understand someone saying Don G or Figaro is a higher height than Tristan or the Ring. Especially since Wagner wrote the poetry as well.


You appear to be under the misconception that becAuse music appears more 'difficult' it is therefore better. Which makes Henselt's piano concerto the greatest because it is the most difficult? Sorry this is just not what greatness is measured by.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> You appear to be under the misconception that becAuse music appears more 'difficult' it is therefore better. Which makes Henselt's piano concerto the greatest because it is the most difficult? Sorry this is just not what greatness is measured by.


Fair enough, but what is greatness measured by? I can't see it on the page or hear it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> *You appear to be under the misconception that becAuse music appears more 'difficult' it is therefore better.* Which makes Henselt's piano concerto the greatest because it is the most difficult? Sorry *this is just not what greatness is measured by.*


Now hold on. Bonetan just said "I suppose none of that [the relative difficulty of Wagner's music] means Wagner is better," so how do you conclude that he's "under the misconception" that it _does_ mean that Wagner is better? What Bonetan does say is that, upon studying the scores, it's hard for him to understand why people say, e.g., that _Don Giovanni_ reaches a "higher height" than _Tristan und Isolde_.

Well, a great many opera lovers have probably wondered why people would say that. I'm rather curious about it myself. Perhaps you can explain it. What, in your judgment, _is_ greatness measured by?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> Fair enough, but what is greatness measured by? I can't see it on the page or hear it.


Sorry but that is your problem.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Wonderful, the way people make extravagant and unprovable statements about the "greatest" this or that, and then turn the burden back on those who challenge them.

I wonder how Mozart would respond to some of the claims made for his entertainments?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Sorry but that is your problem.


The only problem is that this claim that Mozart is the greatest composer of operas is simply an opinion. An opinion which, the more I study, appears to be impossible to support with anything tangible. I challenge anyone to crack open a score & explain how Mozart reached heights that haven't been reached before or since in the history of opera.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

hpowders said:


> I don't listen to opera as much as I used to, but when I do, it's usually Mozart.
> 
> I'd say more than 65%.
> 
> ...


Preposterous fairy tales and blasphemous inventions?


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I'd say my breakdown is something like this:
- Verdi: 40%
- Rossini: 25%
- other bel canto: 20%
- other non-bel canto: 15%


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

For me, opera timeline-wise starts to get a bit interesting with Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, before reaching the top with Wagner, Puccini and Strauss. So I voted none (I tried Mozart operas in the past - did not like them).


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

I've been reading the two Mozart threads with fascination.

My two cents:
Mozart wrote several excellent operas; I've seen four of the mature operas live, and watched several cinema broadcasts and videos of the others. I always enjoy Mozart.

And less than 5% of my favorite operas are Mozart operas.

5%!

Do the calculations, folks. I could name a hundred operas that are "great" without repeating myself or drawing breath - and I'd bet anything there are several hundred equally great operas out there that I haven't heard (and mightn't even have heard of!).

The idolatry of Mozart is - as idolatry is of anyone - limiting. 'There are only three great operas (all of which I happen to like, of course), and nothing else is worth listening to! Nothing written before or since compares to Mozart!'

How do people make this claim? Is it like getting religion? 'My composer is best! I believe in God, Mozart and Beethoven, and likewise their disciples and apostles; I believe in the Holy Spirit and the truth of the one, indivisible Art! There is no composer but Mozart pbuh!' And those who do not believe shall be cast into perdition, where there is only wailing and gnashing of teeth (and for those who do not have teeth, teeth will be provided!).









Are they so impressed by Mozart's operas that they refuse to hear anything else because they don't want to spoil their impressions of Mozart? (Comparisons are odious.)

Is it the desire to draw a line somewhere, rather than be overwhelmed by the need to listen to more and more operas?

Or is it a simple fact? Are they in a position to state, clearly and confidently, without exaggeration, that Mozart's operas are supreme?

That means, of course, that they've listened (to name but a few operas and composers of the period) to Salieri's _Axur re d'Ormus_, Storace's _Equivoci_, Soler's _Cosa rara_, Haydn's _Mondo della luna_ and Grétry's _Amant jaloux_ - and can show exactly where these operas fail to measure up to the Mozart standard. They can discuss the finer points of Sacchini and Cherubini, Paisiello and Cimarosa, Mayr and Winter. They also know every single opera composed around the world over the 400+ years between Peri's _Favoli di Dafne_ and Randall Eng's _Before the Night Sky_. Gosh! Chapeau!

If nothing else, I admire their confidence.

Besides, by what standard is Mozart the best? Did he have Verdi's talent for thundering melodrama combined with vivid characters? Wagner's interest in metaphysics and ability to depict nature (storms, mountains, forests, etc.)? Was he a historical painter like the French or the Russians?

gellio wrote: 'You cannot make an argument for any other composer reaching the heights he reached'. Really? Name a composer, and I'll argue the case. It'd be perfectly easy to argue that, say, Massenet is a greater composer than Mozart. He wrote more than 30 operas in a range of genres; he had an extraordinary ability to depict different times and places; he had a keen insight into people; and he let the phrase influence the music. In fact, take any composer, and you could mount a perfectly good argument for why X is better than Y. It's subjective.

How, in fact, can there be objective judgements about art? Art, as Woodduck says, is subjective. Whether someone likes an opera depends on their temperament, and doesn't reflect their intelligence or their morals.

It isn't an objective fact that Mozart's operas are the best in the world; it's an objective fact that a few people think they are, and that a great deal many more enjoy them. There are people whose favorite Verdi opera is _Alzira_ and whose favorite Wagner is _Rienzi_, or who would rather listen to _Il sogno di Scipione_ than the da Ponte comedies; you or I may be surprised, but that response is true for them.

One can discuss the technique, construction, themes, and influences - but aesthetic judgements are, of necessity, subjective - and tell you as much about the critic as they do about the work itself. (You don't read Shakespeare, as Harold Bloom didn't say; Shakespeare reads you.)

Aesthetic judgements, at their best, are ways of thinking about a work, and show you things you might not have thought of yourself; they certainly shouldn't be diktats passed from on high with the infallibility of a papal fiat - and a lurking threat of excommunication or outer Siberia.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

I think an inordinate amount of time is spent by folks on this site voting for/worrying about/trying to convince/arguing for this or that composer or artist as the "greatest." "Salieri vs. Phillip Glass." Really? It's just all so silly and tiresome. I almost never vote in the absurd polls that litter this site. Au contraire, I spend my time learning about new composers -- in the past couple of days, thanks to Simon Templar, I have gotten exposed to some lovely pieces by Ferdinand Hérold and, with thanks to TwoFlutesOneTrumpet, I have enjoyed some rewarding listening from the English composer Sir Granville Bantock -- and getting exposed to new music and new musicians I have never before encountered.

Some of this "the greatest" is not at all above the total idiocy that one sees on virtually every YouTube classical music performance. "This is the best." "No he's flat at 5:26." "Corelli was the greatest." "You are clearly deaf." And on it goes. Such a waste of time (mine, at least).

Oh, I forgot, I do love the Magic Flute, as well as Don Giovanni. But I could care less if anyone else does, and certainly don't try to prove to them why it's "better" (an absurd term, where Art is involved) than anything else.

I'm neither as literate nor as well-expressed as Woodduck and Simon Templar, but _this is my opinion._ If you think Mozart, or Wagner, or Beethoven, or Hildegard von Bingen for that matter, was the greatest opera composer who ever lived, _that is your opinion, _and you are welcome to it. But please don't insult other members of this site by making assertions that are _prima facie unprovable._

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> No, no, I apologize, that's not what I meant at all! I was just realizing that opinions on these composers are somewhat different from the accompanist/singers/conductors I've met versus posters on Talk Classical & I wondered why that is...I'm sorry if that came out wrong!


No problem. I couldn't find my glasses. Seems I needed to have my glasses on to be able locate my glasses. A Catch-22.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I'd say my breakdown is something like this:
> - Verdi: 40%
> - Rossini: 25%
> - other bel canto: 20%
> - other non-bel canto: 15%


actually, let's test that theory. top 20 operas (in no particular order):
- Attila
- Semiramide
- Norma
- Macbeth
- Beatrice di Tenda
- Carmen
- Rigoletto
- Nabucco
- Maometto Secondo
- L'Italiana en Algeri
- Nozze di Figaro 
- Lucretia Borgia
- The Maid of Orleans
- Mose en Egitto
- Faust
- Maria Stuarda
- Elektra
- Il Trovatore
- Armida
- Giulio Cesare

Verdi: 5/20 25%
Rossini: 5/20 25%
other bel canto: 2/20 10%
other: 8/20 40%


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> The only problem is that this claim that *Mozart is the greatest composer of operas is simply an opinion. *An opinion which, the more I study, appears to be impossible to support with anything tangible. I challenge anyone to crack open a score & explain how Mozart reached heights that haven't been reached before or since in the history of opera.


Oc course it is. But most things expressed on this forum are opinions.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SimonTemplar said:


> I've been reading the two Mozart threads with fascination.
> 
> My two cents:
> Mozart wrote several excellent operas; I've seen four of the mature operas live, and watched several cinema broadcasts and videos of the others. I always enjoy Mozart.
> ...


Just to correct what this gentleman says.

1. In saying Mozart is the greatest composer of opera we are not rubbishing everything else. Bernstein once said of West Side Story: "It's not as fresh as Mozart but who's in that league anyway!" In saying Mozart was the greatest we are certainly not saying nothing else is worth hearing any more than saying because Pele was the greatest footballer of all time everyone else couldn't play. Of my 1500+ CDs I have just about every reasonably well known opera and listen to them. I was listening to Debussy's Pelleas in the early hours of this morning with great enjoyment.

2. Also as someone who is religious and a lover of Mozart I can say Mozart and religion to me are two completely different experiences. No, Mozart is not to me like getting religion. He was not God but a real flesh and blood man with a large number of human failing but supremely gifted as a musician.

3. Saying because we prefer Mozart above all others doesn't mean we don't listen to anything else. That is ridiculous - putting words into our mouths none of us (to my reading) have said.

Please. I have no problem with you disagreeing. But could you judge us on what we actually say!


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

SimonTemplar said:


> Preposterous fairy tales and blasphemous inventions?


I guess this means Rusalka, Undine, and Sadko are out ... Not to mention Sancta Susanna.

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

SimonTemplar said:


> Preposterous fairy tales and blasphemous inventions?


Thanks for repeating it. Catchy, isn't it?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

For a long time _Don Giovanni_ was high on my list of favorite operas. It has since dropped somewhat. _Le nozze di Figaro_ is currently the highest ranked Mozart opera on my list. So I think my more precise answer to the questions asked is somewhere around 5%.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I voted none. I really have not found a Mozart opera synopsis that really interested me. Some have turned me off, such as Don Giovanni and Cosi. Beethoven, who greatly admired Mozart's music, felt that most of Mozart's operas were rather trashy and said he could not set music to such stuff.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Florestan said:


> I voted none. I really have not found a Mozart opera synopsis that really interested me. Some have turned me off, such as Don Giovanni and Cosi. Beethoven, who greatly admired Mozart's music, felt that most of Mozart's operas were rather trashy and said he could not set music to such stuff.


I think if you look at da Ponte's libretti you will find they stand head and shoulders above most of the rest. Beethoven with his idealised visions of love and womanhood (expressed in Fidelio) did not admire da Ponte's Enlightenment thought as expressed in Cosi. Of course the basis of the story is preposterous but no more so than most other operas, many of which are not even set in the real world. Cost fan Tutte stands, however, by virtue of Mozart's music, as one of the greatest ever operas. Like Mary Poppins is it 'practically perfect in every way!'


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Good thread - I was starting to get bored with TC but there's some good fire still to be had.

It's funny how some people get into a strop over Mozart, of all composers, being hailed in this way or that by his army of admirers. As I have said time and again - those who stand on their heads and start tirades against obviously unprovable statements never seem to pop up when anybody makes comparable claims about any composer but Mozart. How many times have we had it said that Beethoven's last quartets plumb the depths of the human soul to a more sublime level than any other composer? Where is McCleod and Wooduck et al when those statements are made? I will tell you where - they are raising a glass of Napoleon Brandy to the speaker - with a smile - and reaching for the very last quartet on CD by their hero - L V B - and toasting a large gypsum bust that takes pride of place by the fireplace.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

My bust is just plaster and one of the ears didn't quite fill in so I need to get it replaced.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> *I think because Mozart roles are much easier to learn & sing*, & easy for accompanist to sight read, Wagner is seen as requiring a higher level of talent & artistry. But I suppose none of that means Wagner is better. However, I've never heard Wagner dismissed as HP did...from studying scores & seeing what was put to page, it makes it hard for me to understand someone saying Don G or Figaro is a higher height than Tristan or the Ring. Especially since Wagner wrote the poetry as well.


Really? You talk as if singers can choose their roles. Did Callas manage Mozart well? The greatest diva of them all? Did she hell - she managed Mozart badly. There are Mozart singers, bel canto, Wagner singers. I think they all have their own level of difficulty and there is no doubt that a great Mozart soprano like Schwarzkopf would have sounded poor in a Verdi role. Some voices suit Mozart very well - others less so. 
So when you say Mozart is easier to learn than other singers - seems to me like an odd statement. Maybe easier to learn if you dont care too much about the result. There were singers in Mozart's times who could not handle the parts - like Don Ottavio could not handle Il Mio Tesoro - Mozart had to compose al alternative aria for him. I also dont believe that an aria like Martern Allern arten - lasting longer than any Verdi aria (I think 9/10 minutes) - is "easier" to learn than, shall we say Una voce poca fa. what about Osmin's aria? etc etc. queens of the night? oh - easy peasy.

Looking around the net - I found this blog on difficult arias by Glenn Winters - an operatic Baritone:

http://dropera.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/blog-to-blog-rebuttal-my-lists-of.html

He places 2 Mozart arias in his list of 10 difficult arias.

this was in response to a listverse top 10 on the same subject (placing 3 mozart arias in the top 10)

http://listverse.com/2011/05/16/top-10-horrifyingly-difficult-opera-arias/


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

stomanek said:


> It's funny how some people get into a strop over Mozart, of all composers, being hailed in this way or that by his army of admirers. As I have said time and again - *those who stand on their heads and start tirades against obviously unprovable statements never seem to pop up when anybody makes comparable claims about any composer but Mozart.** How many times have we had it said that Beethoven's last quartets plumb the depths of the human soul to a more sublime level than any other composer? Where is McCleod and Wooduck et al when those statements are made?* I will tell you where - they are raising a glass of Napoleon Brandy to the speaker - with a smile - and reaching for the very last quartet on CD by their hero - L V B - and toasting a large gypsum bust that takes pride of place by the fireplace.


1) Comparable claims are rarely made about other composers. Mozart is in very select company, and deserves to be by common consent. No argument from me.

2) Indeed, how many times _have_ we had it said that Beethoven's last quartets plumb the depths of the human soul to a more sublime level than any other composer? Anyone counting? Any sources to be cited?

3) That wasn't "statements." It was only one statement, and we don't actually know whether anyone has made it. That makes it very speculative to say where Woodduck and MacLeod were when it was made.

4) I don't have any busts, but I do have a refrigerator magnet with Wagner on it.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

stomanek said:


> Really? You talk as if singers can choose their roles. Did Callas manage Mozart well? The greatest diva of them all? Did she hell - she managed Mozart badly. There are Mozart singers, bel canto, Wagner singers. I think they all have their own level of difficulty and there is no doubt that a great Mozart soprano like Schwarzkopf would have sounded poor in a Verdi role. Some voices suit Mozart very well - others less so.
> So when you say Mozart is easier to learn than other singers - seems to me like an odd statement. Maybe easier to learn if you dont care too much about the result. There were singers in Mozart's times who could not handle the parts - like Don Ottavio could not handle Il Mio Tesoro - Mozart had to compose al alternative aria for him. I also dont believe that an aria like Martern Allern arten - lasting longer than any Verdi aria (I think 9/10 minutes) - is "easier" to learn than, shall we say Una voce poca fa. what about Osmin's aria? etc etc. queens of the night? oh - easy peasy.


Yes absolutely easier. Mozart roles, are shorter, with simpler melodies, oft repeated phrases, & are less vocally taxing. Mozart's style of composition makes it very easy to follow the tracks of the music, so to speak. The hardest thing to learn in Mozart is the recit. Like you said not every voice is ideally suited for Mozart. But to learn a role & sing it is not difficult. There are singers who can do both well. I'm no Callas expert, but I'm sure she would have made a fine Mozart singer if it had been a goal of hers.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

In my own private pantheon of greatest composers (European), the ranking is Bach, the supreme practitioner of the art, Mozart, followed closely by Beethoven, then the rest, with no disrespect to any of them. I love the entire bunch, with the possible exception of Bruckner, whom I simply don't get. This a very conventional ranking, to be sure, but that's how I roll. My favorite Mozart opera is *The Marriage of Figaro* because of its humanity, but I love them all. That said, the operas I listen to most are by Wagner *(Ring cycle)*, Musorgsky *(Boris Godunov, Khovanschina)*, Verdi (any), Puccini (any), Rimsky-Korsakov *(Tsar Saltan, Coq D'Or)*, Britten *(Peter Grimes)*, Tchaikovsky *(Eugene Onegin, Queen of Spades)*, and whatever the Metropolitan Opera is serving on a given weekend. Operatically speaking, I'm an omnivore.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I think if you look at da Ponte's libretti you will find they stand head and shoulders above most of the rest. Beethoven with his idealised visions of love and womanhood (expressed in Fidelio) did not admire da Ponte's Enlightenment thought as expressed in Cosi. Of course the basis of the story is preposterous but no more so than most other operas, many of which are not even set in the real world. Cost fan Tutte stands, however, by virtue of Mozart's music, as one of the greatest ever operas. Like Mary Poppins is it 'practically perfect in every way!'


Are you saying that _Cosi fan tutte_'s theme of woman's fickleness was representative of Enlightenment thought in particular, and that Enlightenment thought was something foreign to Beethoven? I think that what Beethoven disliked was the cynicism of Da Ponte's presentation of love as something utterly unreliable, corruptible and meaningless (the diametric opposite of Beethoven's own _Fidelio_). He also rejected as morally repellent Mozart's and Da Ponte's treatment of a violent rapist in _Don Giovanni,_ in which the Don's conventional punishment hardly counteracts the almost heroic portrayal of him in the text and music, and in a way only further glorifies his magnetic amorality (a frequent characteristic of sociopaths) while making the obligatory gesture (hollow in this case, or rather comedic) toward divine justice. Beethoven evidently lacked an "enlightened" sense of humor, and thought that art might be better employed to some more morally informed and ennobling end. That idea was not so foreign to "Enlightenment thought," and Mozart allows for a bit of it in _Figaro_ (the Countess's forgiveness of her "little Don Giovanni" of a husband) and a bit more in _Zauberflote_.

It's no longer fashionable to look at art through a lens of moral expectations, and so most people, I presume, either don't experience much cognitive dissonance between the unsavory behavior of these operatic characters and the beauty of their music, or just don't care. Perhaps not caring is the most sensible approach.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> I think if you look at da Ponte's libretti you will find they stand head and shoulders above most of the rest. Beethoven with his idealised visions of love and womanhood (expressed in Fidelio) did not admire da Ponte's Enlightenment thought as expressed in Cosi. Of course the basis of the story is preposterous but no more so than most other operas, many of which are not even set in the real world. Cost fan Tutte stands, however, by virtue of Mozart's music, as one of the greatest ever operas. Like Mary Poppins is it 'practically perfect in every way!'


A coach I know, who has had a long career in opera, told me that to this day he has never seen a complete Cosi. He flees at intermission every time. Just goes to show that perfect to one person can be unbearable to another, & they could both be experts in the field. I'm not smart enough to know what this means...


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Are you saying that _Cosi fan tutte_'s theme of woman's fickleness was representative of Enlightenment thought in particular, and that Enlightenment thought was something foreign to Beethoven? I think that what Beethoven disliked was the cynicism of Da Ponte's presentation of love as something utterly unreliable, corruptible and meaningless (the diametric opposite of Beethoven's own _Fidelio_). He also rejected as morally repellent Mozart's and Da Ponte's treatment of a violent rapist in _Don Giovanni,_ in which the Don's conventional punishment hardly counteracts the almost heroic portrayal of him in the text and music, and in a way only further glorifies his magnetic amorality (a frequent characteristic of sociopaths) while making the obligatory gesture (hollow in this case, or rather comedic) toward divine justice. Beethoven evidently lacked an "enlightened" sense of humor, and thought that art might be better employed to some more morally informed and ennobling end. That idea was not so foreign to "Enlightenment thought," and Mozart allows for a bit of it in _Figaro_ (the Countess's forgiveness of her "little Don Giovanni" of a husband) and a bit more in _Zauberflote_.
> 
> It's no longer fashionable to look at art through a lens of moral expectations, and so most people, I presume, either don't experience much cognitive dissonance between the unsavory behavior of these operatic characters and the beauty of their music, or just don't care. Perhaps not caring is the most sensible approach.


I know that myself, I actually have always found Cosi a bit difficult to watch. As much as I love the music, all the cynicism and mean-spiritedness of these characters who turn manipulation into a kind of game and rip each other's lives apart strikes me as incredibly sad.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Bonetan said:


> Yes absolutely easier. Mozart roles, are shorter, with simpler melodies, oft repeated phrases, & are less vocally taxing. Mozart's style of composition makes it very easy to follow the tracks of the music, so to speak. The hardest thing to learn in Mozart is the recit. Like you said not every voice is ideally suited for Mozart. But to learn a role & sing it is not difficult. There are singers who can do both well. I'm no Callas expert, but I'm sure she would have made a fine Mozart singer if it had been a goal of hers.


I'm not sure which roles you're referring to, and with Mozart that's important since he had specific singers in mind when writing their music, from a wide range of skill levels and voice type. Roles like Constanza, Vitellia, Elettra, or Belmonte, Idomeneo, Osmin or Tito were meant for virtuoso singers, most of them demanding highly skilled coloratura singers(with perfected scales, trills, and turns), a comfortable range of over 2 octaves, and often with the sopranos, precision in navigating the immense leaps Mozart was fond of and hitting the notes dead on without scooping or portamento. So while learning the roles may not be as difficult in terms of memorization, that doesn't mean every role is less taxing in terms of technical demand. I mean, can you honestly find nothing difficult about this short aria for Constanza?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

trazom said:


> I'm not sure which roles you're referring to, and with Mozart that's important since he had specific singers in mind when writing their music, from a wide range of skill levels and voice type. Roles like Constanza, Vitellia, Elettra, or Belmonte, Idomeneo, Osmin or Tito were meant for virtuoso singers, most of them demanding highly skilled coloratura singers(with perfected scales, trills, and turns), a comfortable range of over 2 octaves, and often with the sopranos, precision in navigating the immense leaps Mozart was fond of and hitting the notes dead on without scooping or portamento. So while learning the roles may not be as difficult in terms of memorization, that doesn't mean every role is less taxing in terms of technical demand. I mean, can you honestly find nothing difficult about this short aria for Constanza?


Some beautiful singing there! I don't mean to say that there is no difficult singing in Mozart. But compared to Isolde, Costanza is child's play.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Bonetan said:


> Some beautiful singing there! I don't mean to say that there is no difficult singing in Mozart. But compared to Isolde, Costanza is child's play.


That depends on the singer, the technical demands from both roles are so different and just because a singer is successful with Wagner doesn't mean they'll find every Mozart role "child's play" in comparison. I've already heard one popular Wagnerian tenor recently fumble his way through the coloratura runs in Idomeneo's Fuor del Mar. Anyways, I don't think difficulty has anything to do with "artistry" or "talent" as you said in early post as much as it has to do with technique.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

trazom said:


> That depends on the singer, the technical demands from both roles are so different and just because a singer is successful with Wagner doesn't mean they'll find every Mozart role "child's play" in comparison. I've already heard one popular Wagnerian tenor recently fumble his way through the coloratura runs in Idomeneo's Fuor del Mar. Anyways, I don't think difficulty has anything to do with "artistry" or "talent" as you said in early post as much as it has to do with technique.


Technique trumps all! But for the sake of this discussion, a singer with a perfect technique, who has the ability to sing Mozart & Wagner well, is going to have a much easier time singing Mozart. Would you disagree? It's the primary reason so many singers (Mattila, Behrens, Stewart, London, Terfel, etc) cut their teeth on Mozart before moving into Wagner. I think the talent & artistry is what allows them to safely & successfully move into the more difficult repertoire. What would account for Wagner singers being considerably older than Mozart singers if not for the difficulty?


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Bonetan said:


> Technique trumps all! But for the sake of this discussion, a singer with a perfect technique, who has the ability to sing Mozart & Wagner well, is going to have a much easier time singing Mozart. Would you disagree? It's the primary reason so many singers (Mattila, Behrens, Stewart, London, Terfel, etc) cut their teeth on Mozart before moving into Wagner. I think the talent & artistry is what allows them to safely & successfully move into the more difficult repertoire. *What would account for Wagner singers being considerably older than Mozart singers if not for the difficulty?*


I would guess the effects of age on the voice. Most Mozart soprano parts, with the possible exception of Vitellia or Elettra, were written for lyric coloratura sopranos naturally suiting younger singers with a flexible tessitura in the upper registers. Most sopranos in their late teens or early twenties, when they're learning to sing professionally, don't have the voices suited to a late Wagnerian role. That's more to do with biology than technique. Concerning those words again, I probably define them differently from you. When I say technique I mean something like demonstrable and learned skills, "talent" to me is innate musicality or sensitivity, and "artistry" is interpretative ability. 
Still slightly vague but that's how I use those terms and why I think a piece can demand more technique from a performer but not necessarily demand more artistry, let alone have more intrinsic artistic worth in its own right. This has nothing to do with how I view the operas by both composers, I don't favor one over the other. I just don't consider a piece of music "better" just because, hypothetically, it demands more technical skill from the musician.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Just curious what proportion of favorite operas Mozart occupies for TC members.


Can you still follow your topic Florestan.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

trazom said:


> I would guess the effects of age on the voice. Most Mozart soprano parts, with the possible exception of Vitellia or Elettra, were written for lyric coloratura sopranos naturally suiting younger singers with a flexible tessitura in the upper registers. Most sopranos in their late teens or early twenties, when they're learning to sing professionally, don't have the voices suited to a late Wagnerian role. That's more to do with biology than technique. Concerning those words again, I probably define them differently from you. When I say technique I mean something like demonstrable and learned skills, "talent" to me is innate musicality or sensitivity, and "artistry" is interpretative ability.
> Still slightly vague but that's how I use those terms and why I think a piece can demand more technique from a performer but not necessarily demand more artistry, let alone have more intrinsic artistic worth in its own right. This has nothing to do with how I view the operas by both composers, I don't favor one over the other. I just don't consider a piece of music "better" just because, hypothetically, it demands more technical skill from the musician.


I don't disagree with anything you say here. I'll speak just for myself. In my own experience Wagner has proven considerably harder, more involved, & more time consuming. My teacher, who sang Brunnhilde at Bayreuth years ago but started with Mozart considered the Wagner a much greater endeavor. She worked on Isolde for 5 years before she considered it "ready for public consumption". I don't know if this is worth anything, but it seemed relevant in my head lol


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Can you still follow your topic Florestan.


Ya I'm sorry about that. I do this too often smh


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Can you still follow your topic Florestan.





Bonetan said:


> Ya I'm sorry about that. I do this too often smh


No problem. All I need is the poll results. I actually am pleased to see how big of a forest fire I started by throwing a lit match stick out the window.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> A coach I know, who has had a long career in opera, told me that to this day he has never seen a complete Cosi. He flees at intermission every time. Just goes to show that perfect to one person can be unbearable to another, & they could both be experts in the field. I'm not smart enough to know what this means...


Come on! You don't judge the greatness of a work by one individual's preference. I feel sorry for the poor guy! What a blind spot!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Are you saying that _Cosi fan tutte_'s t*heme of woman's fickleness was representative of Enlightenment thought in particular*, and that Enlightenment thought was something foreign to Beethoven? *I think that what Beethoven disliked was the cynicism of Da Ponte's presentation of love as something utterly unreliable, corruptible and meaningless (the diametric opposite of Beethoven's own Fidelio)*. He also rejected as morally repellent Mozart's and Da Ponte's treatment of a violent rapist in _Don Giovanni,_ in which the Don's conventional punishment hardly counteracts *the almost heroic portrayal of him in the text and music*, and in a way only further glorifies his magnetic amorality (a frequent characteristic of sociopaths) while making the obligatory gesture (hollow in this case, or rather comedic) toward divine justice. Beethoven evidently lacked an "enlightened" sense of humor, and thought that art might be better employed to some more morally informed and ennobling end. That idea was not so foreign to "Enlightenment thought," and Mozart allows for a bit of it in _Figaro_ (the Countess's forgiveness of her "little Don Giovanni" of a husband) and a bit more in _Zauberflote_.
> 
> It's no longer fashionable to look at art through a lens of moral expectations, and so most people, I presume, either don't experience much cognitive dissonance between the unsavory behavior of these operatic characters and the beauty of their music, or just don't care. Perhaps not caring is the most sensible approach.


The Enlightenment theme in Cosi is actually found in the last chorus which says happy are those who choose reason above emotion. Yes one can understand the theme of Cosi as being morally repellant to Beethoven and I'm pretty sure Lud would have been appalled by some of the treatment given 'love' in some of the romantic operas that followed him. But then I don't look to opera for moral guidance rather art. If we look to lessons in morality in opera we surely rule out 90% of it. Many operas have characters that behave fun a most unsavoury manner. I admit Cosi presents a moral problem but when you see a production as at Glyndebourne 2006 you at least see the characters struggle with it!
The case of Giovanni is interesting because the Don to me is not at all portrayed as heroic - saying that is to miss the point. He is only given two arias, his attempts at seduction in the opera all fail and that the interest in the opera lies not in the Don but in the characters around him - i.e. how they react to this sociopath who ruins (or attempts to ruin) their lives. Productions which try to put the Don in the centre (as in the misguided ROH production) miss the point.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> A coach I know, who has had a long career in opera, told me that to this day he has never seen a complete Cosi. He flees at intermission every time. Just goes to show that perfect to one person can be unbearable to another, & they could both be experts in the field. I'm not smart enough to know what this means...


He could have found it both perfect _and_ unbearable.

Perfection is overrated. It is a frigid virtue, much valued by undertakers.

Give me something which is imperfect because it aims at a target it can never see entire, and reaches for something forever beyond its grasp.

Perfection is beautiful, but the sublime is greater than the beautiful, because it must comprehend beauty in order to surpass it.

"Art is more than beauty." - Maria Callas


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The Enlightenment theme in Cosi is actually found in the last chorus which says happy are those who choose reason above emotion. Yes one can understand the theme of Cosi as being morally repellant to Beethoven and I'm pretty sure Lud would have been appalled by some of the treatment given 'love' in some of the romantic operas that followed him. But then I don't look to opera for moral guidance rather art. If we look to lessons in morality in opera we surely rule out 90% of it. Many operas have characters that behave fun a most unsavoury manner. I admit Cosi presents a moral problem but when you see a production as at Glyndebourne 2006 you at least see the characters struggle with it!
> The case of Giovanni is interesting because the Don to me is not at all portrayed as heroic - saying that is to miss the point. He is only given two arias, his attempts at seduction in the opera all fail and that the interest in the opera lies not in the Don but in the characters around him - i.e. how they react to this sociopath who ruins (or attempts to ruin) their lives. Productions which try to put the Don in the centre (as in the misguided ROH production) miss the point.


That's an interesting point about the Don. You've seen him in the theater, while I haven't, so you no doubt have a better sense of what he is. I say "what" rather than "who" because he impresses me as having no personality in particular - no emotional life, really - but as being defined by what he does for a "living." As you indicate, all the emotions seem to belong to those around him. I imagine the "mystery" - the black hole - at the heart of the central character is the source of the opera's eternal fascination.

On _Cosi,_ I suspect Beethoven wouldn't have been too impressed by the "reason vs. emotion" dichotomy any more than he was by the behavior of the characters. But that's just me speculating.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> Yes absolutely easier. Mozart roles, are shorter, with simpler melodies, oft repeated phrases, & are less vocally taxing. Mozart's style of composition makes it very easy to follow the tracks of the music, so to speak. The hardest thing to learn in Mozart is the recit. Like you said not every voice is ideally suited for Mozart. But to learn a role & sing it is not difficult. There are singers who can do both well. *I'm no Callas expert, but I'm sure she would have made a fine Mozart singer if it had been a goal of hers.*


No she wouldn't. I have listened to her few recording of Mozart she has made and the timbre of her mezzo voice just doesnt suit any Mozart role I can think of. Or she might have been a good Mozart singer at best- but not a famous one.
Are wagner roles harder to learn than Mozart roles? Possibly. What about Verdi? Do you think Sussanah with 2 big arias, several duets and big ensembles and a mass of recititive is easier to learn than Leonora (trovatore)? I dont think so.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> That's an interesting point about the Don. You've seen him in the theater, while I haven't, so you no doubt have a better sense of what he is. I say "what" rather than "who" because he impresses me *as having no personality in particular* - no emotional life, really - but as being defined by what he does for a "living." As you indicate, all the emotions seem to belong to those around him. I imagine the "mystery" - the black hole - at the heart of the central character is the source of the opera's eternal fascination.
> 
> On _Cosi,_ I suspect Beethoven wouldn't have been too impressed by the "reason vs. emotion" dichotomy any more than he was by the behavior of the characters. But that's just me speculating.


The Don's personality is constant - he is a psychopath thinking only of his own gratification. It is the characters around him who change. This is the genius of the opera.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

None of Mozart's operas are among my favorites, but I do listen to them from time to time. Mostly bits and pieces, which is unusual for me since it's rare I consume operas in less than full performances; even one act at a time is not my preference.

But I feel sated when I listen to an aria or two from Figaro or Flute, or perhaps a scene from DG when I listen to Mozart.


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

Bettina said:


> To figure out the percentage, I'm going to post a list of my top ten operas and then I'll see how many of them are by Mozart...
> 
> 1. Bizet: Carmen
> 2. Mozart: Don Giovanni
> ...


 There's not a single Verdi Opera (making it wider, Italian Opera) among your top ten. We agree in 2, 5, 7 and 9. Maybe... In 1 and 6, but not in this order.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

DavidA said:


> The Don's personality is constant - he is a psychopath thinking only of his own gratification. It is the characters around him who change. This is the genius of the opera.


I believe Bryn Terfel nailed Don Giovanni by performing him not as a charming rake but a rapist. In fact, he found the character so repellent that he subsequently refused to accept the role afterward. Frankly, although I sympathize with Terfel's attitude about the Don and applaud his stand against sexism, I believe it would have served a positive social purpose to have continued in the role in order to illuminate the misogyny inherent in the "charming rogue" attitude that gives this kind of behavior a pass. But then, opera is art, not life. Right?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

znapschatz said:


> I believe Bryn Terfel nailed Don Giovanni by performing him not as a charming rake but a rapist. In fact, he found the character so repellent that he subsequently refused to accept the role afterward. Frankly, although I sympathize with Terfel's attitude about the Don and applaud his stand against sexism, I believe it would have served a positive social purpose to have continued in the role in order to illuminate the misogyny inherent in the "charming rogue" attitude that gives this kind of behavior a pass. But then, opera is art, not life. Right?


Yes, but could anyone possibly look less like a Don & more like a Leporello than Terfel? Lol


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Yes, but could anyone possibly look less like a Don & more like a Leporello than Terfel? Lol


That is the fun thing with opera.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> Yes, but could anyone possibly look less like a Don & more like a Leporello than Terfel? Lol


Interesting that I made that remark to my wife but she said that he made a very sexually dangerous Don.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Interesting that I made that remark to my wife but she said that he made a very sexually dangerous Don.


A fat, sloppy Don is something I can't wrap my head around, try as I might!


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

znapschatz said:


> I believe Bryn Terfel nailed Don Giovanni by performing him *not as a charming rake but a rapist.* In fact, he found the character so repellent that he subsequently refused to accept the role afterward. Frankly, although I sympathize with Terfel's attitude about the Don and applaud his stand against sexism, I believe it would have served a positive social purpose to have continued in the role in order to illuminate the misogyny inherent in the "charming rogue" attitude that gives this kind of behavior a pass. But then, opera is art, not life. Right?


I see that as an error. We dont really know the full story with him and Donna Anna. It is hard to imagine a nobleman attempting to rape a member of the aristocracy. I also cannot believe that Mozart would have lavished such heroic music on him when he stands up to the stone guest and refuses to repent for his "sins" - and what are his sins? 1003 conquests? all rapes? No - it was bad enough in those days to seduce a woman on the pretext of marriage - as he does with Zerlina - and I suspect this was his intention with Donna Anna - but he wanted some payment in kind - and was challenged to a duel because of the insult to her honour involved in the pre-marriage seduction. And why would he waste time misleading Zerlina? In those days if a nobleman wanted a peasant girl he would just take her - try reading Shamela by J Andrews - it is all there - same period even if different country. He certainly did not rape Elvira - again - tricked her into believing he intended marriage - then he absconded. 
He's a cad, philanderer - call him what you will - but no rapist.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

Bonetan said:


> Yes, but could anyone possibly look less like a Don & more like a Leporello than Terfel? Lol


Opera frequently requires overlooking the physical appearance of its performers for the sake of the art. It's called "willing suspension of disbelief." But in my view, Terfel brought it off, really looking the part as well as in his singing. BTW, in real life, some of the most successful seducers I have known were nothing special to look at, and rapists even less than that.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

znapschatz said:


> Opera frequently requires overlooking the physical appearance of its performers for the sake of the art. It's called "willing suspension of disbelief." But in my view, Terfel brought it off, really looking the part as well as in his singing. BTW, in real life, some of the most successful seducers I have known were nothing special to look at, and rapists even less than that.


I can certainly understand that as a performer myself, but we're talking about the greatest seducer in history! My suspension of disbelief only goes so far. Besides, Don G is not a tough sing & there are many handsome baritones & basses who can do it well. But I understand, Terfel's looks bother me more than most.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> I can certainly understand that as a performer myself, but we're talking about the greatest seducer in history! My suspension of disbelief only goes so far. Besides, Don G is not a tough sing & there are many handsome baritones & basses who can do it well. But I understand, Terfel's looks bother me more than most.


what about fat sopranos playing violetta? a woman wasting away physically from consumption

agnes baltsa - one of the ugliest singers I have ever seen - has played carmen looking like an old woman


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

stomanek said:


> I see that as an error. We dont really know the full story with him and Donna Anna. *It is hard to imagine a nobleman attempting to rape a member of the aristocracy.* I also cannot believe that Mozart would have lavished such heroic music on him when he stands up to the stone guest and refuses to repent for his "sins" - and what are his sins? 1003 conquests? all rapes? No - it was bad enough in those days to seduce a woman on the pretext of marriage - as he does with Zerlina - and I suspect this was his intention with Donna Anna - but he wanted some payment in kind - and was challenged to a duel because of the insult to her honour involved in the pre-marriage seduction. And why would he waste time misleading Zerlina? In those days if a nobleman wanted a peasant girl he would just take her - try reading Shamela by J Andrews - it is all there - same period even if different country. He certainly did not rape Elvira - again - tricked her into believing he intended marriage - then he absconded.
> He's a cad, philanderer - call him what you will - but no rapist.


Please read some history!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> I can certainly understand that as a performer myself, but we're talking about the greatest seducer in history! My suspension of disbelief only goes so far. Besides, Don G is not a tough sing & there are many handsome baritones & basses who can do it well. But I understand, Terfel's looks bother me more than most.


Intersting. My wife reckons he's a great Don with great sexual allure. You see women think differently!


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Intersting. My wife reckons he's a great Don with great sexual allure. You see women think differently!


David, you took it too far! Sexual allure?? I can't take much more of this!!!


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

stomanek said:


> what about fat sopranos playing violetta? a woman wasting away physically from consumption
> 
> agnes baltsa - one of the ugliest singers I have ever seen - has played carmen looking like an old woman


That's all unfortunate casting in my opinion :-(


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Intersting. My wife reckons he's a great Don with great sexual allure. You see women think differently!


Differently from each other, fortunately, as there are only so many men to go around and a great percentage of us are either gay or not worth their time.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

Bonetan said:


> A fat, sloppy Don is something I can't wrap my head around, try as I might!


Hefty, perhaps, but hardly sloppy. In any case, Terfel convinced me, and also my wife, who agreed he was spot on. In fact, she was first to mention it.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

stomanek said:


> No she wouldn't. *I have listened to her few recording of Mozart she has made and the timbre of her mezzo voice just doesnt suit any Mozart role I can think of. Or she might have been a good Mozart singer at best- but not a famous one.*
> Are wagner roles harder to learn than Mozart roles? Possibly. What about Verdi? Do you think Sussanah with 2 big arias, several duets and big ensembles and a mass of recititive is easier to learn than Leonora (trovatore)? I dont think so.


*Queen of the Night*, possibly?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> That's all unfortunate casting in my opinion :-(


Pavarotti playing Rodolfo? a write so poor he has to burn his play to keep warm - and Pav looks like he has just eaten a barrel load of spag bol


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

znapschatz said:


> *Queen of the Night*, possibly?


pre 1952 perhaps when here voice was capable of anything


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

stomanek said:


> Pavarotti playing Rodolfo? a write so poor he has to burn his play to keep warm - and Pav looks like he has just eaten a barrel load of spag bol


In all fairness most tenors who play Rudolfo don't exactly look gaunt!


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

znapschatz said:


> Hefty, perhaps, but hardly sloppy. In any case, Terfel convinced me, and also my wife, who agreed he was spot on. In fact, she was first to mention it.


I like Terfel as the Don, but -- at least at the Met -- he looked more like a rakish Jane Austen character than like a Spanish nobleman/playboy!


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

[Deleted by poster]


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I was thinking about Mozart this morning because a soloist at the Easter Sunday service sang one of the Mozart sacred arias. Though I've heard this same point made about Rossini (one of my favorite opera composers), it did occur to me that, compared to (say) Bach, Mozart's music sounds almost like "rock music"! What I mean, I guess, is that Mozart's music is quite rhythmic and must have seemed "modern" at the time it was first being heard. 

I listen to a fair amount of Mozartean opera, though on the whole I prefer Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, and Verdi. The thing with Mozart, I find, is that as his operas are lengthy and "talky" you really have to immerse yourself in them -- i.e. devote a considerable amount of time to them. Though I personally favor the Italian bel canto composers, I would have no problem at all with Mozart being called the greatest opera composer who ever lived. On the other hand, I think many would want to give Verdi that title.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Though I personally favor the Italian bel canto composers, I would have no problem at all with Mozart being called the greatest opera composer who ever lived. *On the other hand,* I think many would want to give Verdi that title.


That greatest composer of opera is a creature with three hands, not two.


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## Amara (Jan 12, 2012)

1/29. So, 3 percent.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Amara said:


> 1/29. So, 3 percent.


That's what one called, accurate.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't like going to Mozart operas much as they are way too long. Wagner is long, but it is worth it for me. When I used to have satellite radio I loved listening to Mozart operas in the car, particularly Idomeneo. If I saw it was Mozart I would tune in. His music is so elegant, but I prefer the dramatic use of high notes for climaxes that you find in Italian opera and Wagner. He never goes for the climax... it is all about balance. I have greatly enjoyed Mozart recital discs, but his arias don't push me over the edge like say Wagner, Puccini or Verdi arias do.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't like going to Mozart operas much as they are way too long. Wagner is long, but it is worth it for me. When I used to have satellite radio I loved listening to Mozart operas in the car, particularly Idomeneo. If I saw it was Mozart I would tune in. His music is so elegant, but I prefer the dramatic use of high notes for climaxes that you find in Italian opera and Wagner. He never goes for the climax...* it is all about balance.* I have greatly enjoyed Mozart recital discs, but *his arias don't push me over the edge* like say Wagner, Puccini or Verdi arias do.


That's the Classical temper in a nutshell: maintain balance, and don't get too close to the edge. Romanticism decided to jump off the edge, sink or swim. Mozart tests the waters with the damnation of Don Giovanni, but jumps back out immediately for a little poolside gossip with Donna Anna and friends.


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## JSBach85 (Feb 18, 2017)

While I like Mozart Operas and I own some recordings of them: La Clemenza di Tito (Jacobs), Idomeneo (Jacobs), Idomeneo (Gardiner), Le Nozze di Figaro (Jacobs), Le Nozze di Figaro (Gardiner), Cosi fan Tutte (Jacobs), Don Giovanni (Jacobs), Don Giovanni (Gardiner), Die Zauberflote (Gardiner), La Finta Giardiniera (Jacobs), I would rather prefer to listen baroque operas, my favourite italian baroque opera composers are: Handel, Vivaldi, Pergolesi, Vinci, Hasse, Graun, Veracini.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I attended some Mozart operas in the 1980s (before surtitles were projected) but have little recollection of it. I own no Mozart operas, and in fact, I recently got a Magic Flute set from the library for $1 cents and sold it (without a booklet) along with a double disk Rod Steward set I also got at the library for $1 to Dearborn Music for $8. I think I spent the profit on a Mussorgsky Khovanshchina set with Cossotto.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Florestan said:


> I attended some Mozart operas in the 1980s (before surtitles were projected) but have little recollection of it. I own no Mozart operas, and in fact, I recently got a Magic Flute set from the library for $1 cents and sold it (without a booklet) along with a double disk Rod Steward set I also got at the library for $1 to Dearborn Music for $8. I think I spent the profit on a Mussorgsky Khovanshchina set with Cossotto.


Sounds like the only way you're going to keep a Mozart opera is for someone to pay you to do it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> Sounds like the only way you're going to keep a Mozart opera is for someone to pay you to do it.


I keep my Mozart operas only to avoid the appearance of impropriety.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't like going to Mozart operas much as they are *way too long*. Wagner is long, but it is worth it for me. When I used to have satellite radio I loved listening to Mozart operas in the car, particularly Idomeneo. If I saw it was Mozart I would tune in. His music is so elegant, but I prefer the dramatic use of high notes for climaxes that you find in Italian opera and Wagner. He never goes for the climax... it is all about balance. I have greatly enjoyed Mozart recital discs, but his arias don't push me over the edge like say Wagner, Puccini or Verdi arias do.


Pardon? :lol: .


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

For me, some of the most sublime music written has been what Mozart wrote for his operas. When I'm in the mood for Mozart. That said, I sometimes struggle to listen to a complete one straight through. There are too many recitatives for my liking, and it's almost a too much of a good thing. So...he's near the top for the quality of his highlights, but other composers I listen to more "completely" per say. 

I think right about 15-20% is a fair estimate


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Mozart for the most part churned out endless quantities of repetitive rubbish. There are some good things, but the most hyped (the asinine Magic Flute in particular) are not among them.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sonata said:


> For me, some of the most sublime music written has been what Mozart wrote for his operas. When I'm in the mood for Mozart. That said, I sometimes struggle to listen to a complete one straight through. There are too many recitatives for my liking, and it's almost a too much of a good thing. So...he's near the top for the quality of his highlights, but other composers I listen to more "completely" per say.
> 
> I think right about 15-20% is a fair estimate


I have a problem with 18th-century opera in general, both Baroque and Classical. Handel and Mozart (just to name the best) are full of wonderful set pieces, but I tend to find the operas taken whole a bit tedious. It's partly the recitatives, which are fine in the theater where you can watch the action, but not very musically rewarding for pure listening. In fact they're often trite and formulaic stuff (music by the yard) that any competent 18th-century composer could turn out in his sleep, and it's entirely up to the singers to give them life. Handel and Mozart could both handle recitative creatively when they wanted to, but their instincts were sure; they knew that the talkier "action" parts of their libretti would prolong the operas intolerably if they were given too much music.

When it comes to this sort of opera, I find "highlights" recordings a blessing.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> When it comes to this sort of opera, I find "highlights" recordings a blessing.


I'm with you, although I feel that way about all operas.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I'm with you, although I feel that way about all operas.


Maybe you can suggest good recordings of highlights from _Pelleas et Melisande_ and _Bluebeard's Castle._


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## JSBach85 (Feb 18, 2017)

Dissapointing that nobody even mentions any of the best baroque composers: Handel, Vivaldi, Hasse, Rameau, Purcell.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JSBach85 said:


> Dissapointing that nobody even mentions any of the best baroque composers: Handel, Vivaldi, Hasse, Rameau, Purcell.


But you solved that problem now.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

JSBach85 said:


> Dissapointing that nobody even mentions any of the best baroque composers: Handel, Vivaldi, Hasse, Rameau, Purcell.


Now that you mention it, I recently got into Baroque opera. So far loving several Handel operas and my one Gluck opera. Still trying to get into Monteverdi. One Vivaldi opera I am not so fond of, but maybe have to try more. Have not listened to any of the others you mentioned.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Maybe you can suggest good recordings of highlights from _Pelleas et Melisande_ and _Bluebeard's Castle._


I like this one very much


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

JSBach85 said:


> Dissapointing that nobody even mentions any of the best baroque composers: Handel, Vivaldi, Hasse, Rameau, Purcell.


Handel does get plenty of talk, no worries  I think there was a recent Rameau discussion started elsewhere on here, and I know there was a Lully one as well. Definitely need to increase the Vivaldi discussion.


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## JSBach85 (Feb 18, 2017)

Florestan said:


> Now that you mention it, I recently got into Baroque opera. So far loving several Handel operas and my one Gluck opera. Still trying to get into Monteverdi. One Vivaldi opera I am not so fond of, but maybe have to try more. Have not listened to any of the others you mentioned.


That are great news! I am glad you are enjoying baroque operas. There are too many of them to know... but unfortunately most of them have not been even recorded. I have been looking for famous opera composers that are currently neglected. The following list is not an exhaustive, neither a complete list of all the baroque composers but just to give you an idea of how many famous baroque composers there were:

*Italian Baroque*:

- Jacopo Peri (1561-1633). Very few recordings.
- Claudio Monteverdi (1567-1643). At least his operas survived. Fairly recorded.
- Francesco Cavalli (1602-1676). Some of his operas have been recorded.
- Alessandro Scarlatti (1660-1725). Only arias and secular cantatas recorded, quite a few operas on radio broadcasts.
- George Frideric Handel (1685-1759). At least 30 operas survived. Heavily recorded.
- Giovanni Battista Pergolesi (1710-1736). Few operas recorded, others broadcasted on radio.
- Antonio Vivaldi (1678-1741). Heavily recorded. Composed over 40 operas.
- Leonardo Vinci (1690-1730). Few to fairly recorded. Composed over 30 operas.
- Leonardo Leo (1694-1744). Few to fairly recorded. Composed over 20 operas.
- Johann Adolph Hasse (1699-1783). Few operas recorded. Fairly broadcasted on radio. Composed more than 60 operas.
- Carl Heinrich Graun (1704-1759). Very few operas recorded. Composed over 30 operas.
- Tomaso Giovanni Albinoni (1671-1751). Currently unfairly known because of his instrumental music. Almost every opera lost. Composed 46 operas.
- Antonio Caldara, (1670-1736). Few recordings. Composed 8 operas.

*French Baroque*:

- Jean-Baptiste Lully (1632-1687). Heavily recorded. Composed at least 14 operas.
- Jean-Féry Rebel (1666-1747). Composed 1 opera.
- Marin Marais (1656-1728). Few recordings. Composed 6 operas.
- Marc-Antoine Charpentier (1643-1704). Fairly recorded. Composed 6 operas.
- André Campra (1660-1744). Few recorded. Composed at least 10 operas.
- Jean-Joseph de Mondonville (1711-1772). Few recorded. Composed 9 operas.
- Jean-Philippe Rameau (1683-1764). Heavily recorded. Composed at least 30 operas.
- Jean-Joseph Mouret (1682-1738). Very few recorded. Composed at least 4 operas.

*English Baroque*

- Henry Purcell (1659-1695). Heavily recorded. Composed at least 5 operas.
- John Blow (1649-1708). Few recorded. Composed 1 opera.
- Thomas Augustine Arne (1710-1778). Few recorded. Composed 2 operas.

*Spanish Baroque*

- José Melchor Baltasar Gaspar Nebra Blasco (1702-1768). Few recorded. Composed 5 operas.
- Antoni de Literes (1673-1747). Few recorded. Composed 4 operas.
- Domènec Terradellas (1713-1751). Few recorded. Composed Composed 11 operas.

*German Baroque*

- Georg Philipp Telemann (1681-1767). Few recorded. Composed over 30 operas.
- Reinhard Keiser (1674-1739). Very few recorded. Composed over 30 operas.

*Other Italian Galant*

- Niccolò Jommelli (1714-1774). Fairly recorded. Composed over 60 operas.
- Baldassare Galuppi (1706-1785). Few recorded but broadcasted on radio. Composed over 60 operas.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

JSBach85 said:


> That are great news! I am glad you are enjoying baroque operas. There are too many of them to know... but unfortunately most of them have not been even recorded. I have been looking for famous opera composers that are currently neglected. The following list is not an exhaustive, neither a complete list of all the baroque composers but just to give you an idea of how many famous baroque composers there were:
> *. . . *


Thanks! I sent the list to myself in an email so I can keep it on hand for future reference.


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## Rys (Nov 26, 2016)

Not enough categories under 20%. I don't feel like doing math to figure out a specific percentage. I'll gladly say Mozart is around 15%. Figaro will always be my favorite opera.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

I like Figaro but it's the only Mozart I spin with any regularity. Not terribly well versed in opera but I've heard all of his. I spend most of my vocal listening time on Wagner, sacred music, and Handel operas and it satisfies me.


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## JSBach85 (Feb 18, 2017)

Florestan said:


> Thanks! I sent the list to myself in an email so I can keep it on hand for future reference.


I really enjoy discovering neglected operas. Maybe we can give a try through youtube and google searching for broadcasted operas or at least some arias.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

gardibolt said:


> Mozart for the most part churned out endless quantities of repetitive rubbish. There are some good things, but the most hyped (the asinine Magic Flute in particular) are not among them.


Frankly this says more about you than Mozart! :lol:


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## JSBach85 (Feb 18, 2017)

Now speaking about Mozart, have you ever listened this recording?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

JSBach85 said:


> I really enjoy discovering neglected operas. Maybe we can give a try through youtube and google searching for broadcasted operas or at least some arias.


I don't do well with you tube opera, but like to get a DVD. I just ordered a couple of Baroque operas on DVD.



JSBach85 said:


> Now speaking about Mozart, have you ever listened this recording?
> 
> View attachment 94114


I avoid that opera for the same reason Beethoven didn't like much of Mozart's opera subject matter.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JSBach85 said:


> Now speaking about Mozart, have you ever listened this recording?
> 
> View attachment 94114


To me the best period Cosi is Jacobs


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## JSBach85 (Feb 18, 2017)

DavidA said:


> To me the best period Cosi is Jacobs


The problem is that I still own Jacobs version :lol:


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Florestan said:


> I avoid that opera for the same reason Beethoven didn't like much of Mozart's opera subject matter.


Would Beethoven be any more enthusiastic about the subject matter all the operas you enjoy? The da Ponte operas are pretty tame in their handling of human sexuality in comparison with some famous operas that came later.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

trazom said:


> Would Beethoven be any more enthusiastic about the subject matter all the operas you enjoy? The da Ponte operas are pretty tame in their handling of human sexuality in comparison with some famous operas that came later.


Well, I am not disliking Mozart operas because of how Beethoven felt about them but because of how I feel about them. As for other operas I listen to, he and I may differ.


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## SoleilCouchant (May 4, 2017)

Adding my two cents: Don Giovanni is one of my favorite operas _to watch_, but really for the dramatic/entertainment value, not so much the music/arias itself/themselves. To put it another way, it's extremely entertaining to watch (uh, if done well. I've seen three different versions and one was really boring)... but would I voluntarily choose to listen to a CD of it? No. I find the music by itself kind of boring, barring the part when he gets dragged to hell.

As far as musicality I tend towards French opera. (Gounod, Saint-Saens, Bizet, Ambroise Thomas, Offenbach, Charpentier, etc.) Though, still, those aren't the only ones I like...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

SoleilCouchant said:


> Adding my two cents: Don Giovanni is one of my favorite operas _to watch_, but really for the dramatic/entertainment value, not so much the music/arias itself/themselves. To put it another way, it's extremely entertaining to watch (uh, if done well. I've seen three different versions and one was really boring)... but would I voluntarily choose to listen to a CD of it? No. I find the music by itself kind of boring, barring the part when he gets dragged to hell.
> 
> As far as musicality I tend towards operas written by French composers. (Gounod, Saint-Saens, Bizet, Ambroise Thomas, Offenbach, Charpentier, etc.) Though those aren't the only ones I like...


I love Don Giovanni but I also like Meyerbeer, Thomas et al, but if I am not in the right mood, the latter can also be very boring.


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## SoleilCouchant (May 4, 2017)

For me it might depend on which aria, too. I think a lot of it is personal and mood-based. I don't know what comes first, the chicken or the egg. For me, Gounod is the one I "started" with so maybe my ears just liked that French sound. But after that, many that I would love would be French, even without intentionally seeking it out, etc., so it may just be what I like in general. With operas though. As far as recital pieces or orchestral pieces, my taste seems to span more diversely, lol.


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## dillonp2020 (May 6, 2017)

Mozart was a musical genius. This has already been well established. His operas were no exception, they too are brilliant. I can recognize they're brilliance without loving all of them. Of his operas, Don Giovanni is the only one I can listen to arias from on a regular basis. I feel much more enamored by the works of the Italian masters Verdi and Puccini. Mozart opera's seem more idealistic to me, and while I appreciate this, I don't like it as much.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

So after saying that he's under 20% of my opera listening....my last 3 out of 5 operas that I've listened to have been Mozart, and I've in the last month listened to 3 discs of his concert arias too. He's definitely hitting the sweet spot. I think it's been because sunny weather calls for sunny music right now.


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## VladaNS (May 24, 2017)

Don Giovanni and Die Zauberflöte are in my top 10 favorite operas, but besides them no other operas by Mozart had any profound impression on me...
Don Giovannis Commendatore scene is fantastic, especially when all 3 male singers are great!


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