# Not enough meat in the sandwich?



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

There's some works in classical music where there's simply not enough meat in the sandwich. For example, you wade through a long work, and there's only one bit of it that's interesting, the rest is very boring (to you!).

One example I think this description applies to is Delibes' opera _Lakme_, the famous Flower Duet being the only bit in it that I can remember for one thing, and the only bit that is more interesting to me than watching paint dry on a wall.

Of course this type of thing is somewhat better than a work that is 100 per cent boring, at least there is _some_ meat in the proverbial sandwich. Problem is, that it's just not enough, however tasty the small morsel of goodness you get.

I can't think of any other examples right now, but I probably will later.

So what about you? Any examples you find like this? No sacred cows here, though. We can debate eachother's choices, just do it with respect, guys please.

You can talk about any genre/s in classical music.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Medtner's Night Wind Sonata is stretched a little thin. Very epic material that goes on too long.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

Beethoven's 9th symphony. Beethoven's 5th symphony. Beethoven's 6th symphony. For that matter, all of Beethoven's symphonies.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Opinions and all but HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. I could see the 9th... but not the 5th whatsoever.


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## humanbean (Mar 5, 2011)

Dvorak 4, 2nd movement. Great main theme, which he undoubtedly borrows from Wagner's Tannhauser overture. However, he just keeps on and on and on with it. The development/variation isn't very satisfying, and it starts to be a bit much 6 mins into an 11 min piece. But the theme introduction by the horns at the very beginning is just downright fantastic!


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

For me it is Handel's Messiah. Twenty minutes of glorious music. The rest is very doughy.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

the last movement of Beethoven's violin concerto.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Sid James said:


> There's some works in classical music where there's simply not enough meat in the sandwich. For example, you wade through a long work, and there's only one bit of it that's interesting, the rest is very boring (to you!).
> 
> One example I think this description applies to is Delibes' opera _Lakme_, the famous Flower Duet being the only bit in it that I can remember for one thing, and the only bit that is more interesting to me than watching paint dry on a wall.
> 
> ...


Agree. _Lakme_ is an excellent example. So much so that the famous aria is even better known that its composer! Unfortunately, Delibes is not very well known / performed in opera seasons anyway. I have even come cross folks who assumed the aria was probably by Verdi or Puccini! This could indicate something about the composer's calibre?

Personally, some large scale works by Elgar and Vaughan-Williams strike me as "not enough meat in the sandwich". V-W's symphony no.8, 9 for example. Bruckner's longer symphonies as well. It seems some of these longer symphonies give me that feel. Just a personal observation; nothing more, nothing less. Of course, there are works by Elgar, V-W and Bruckner that I enjoy very much with "a lot of meat in the sandwich"!


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Tchaikovsky's music. The sandwich is overflowing with meat, but it is not enough for me!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I am hungry for a sandwich now.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Agree. _Lakme_ is an excellent example. So much so that the famous aria is even better known that its composer! Unfortunately, Delibes is not very well known / performed in opera seasons anyway. I have even come cross folks who assumed the aria was probably by Verdi or Puccini! This could indicate something about the composer's calibre?


Yeah? Verdi and and Puccini wrote a lot of French opera then? Silly boogers!
I can think of better examples in opera, Rusalka's Hymn to the Moon, Vesti la giubba in I Pagliacci. You have to plough through a lot of averageness to find those gems. So hands off Lakme! :scold:


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Rimsky's vacuous "Scheherazade"--bore,bore!


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

moody said:


> rimsky's vacuous "scheherazade"--bore,bore!


HERESY.

Treasonous heresy.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

violadude said:


> I am hungry for a sandwich now.


I sense a thread coming up...


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Cnote11 said:


> Tchaikovsky's music. The sandwich is overflowing with meat, but it is not enough for me!


Where have you been all my life?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

On the run here, will come back comment in more depth later.

Well, at least one opera lover here - HarpsichordConcerto - agrees with me re _Lakme_. Dvorak's _Rusalka_ was another one on my mind based on anecdotal evidence/views, but it's unfair for me to comment on it since I haven't heard the whole opera (but I have it complete and it's one of the cd's on my _listening backburner_ - I'm getting into a few operas now as a getaway from other things).

Glad people have kept it civil, good discussion.

It's actually hard for me to think of any right now. My usual problem is too much meat rather than too little (& yeah, the Late Romantics sometimes had that tendency, esp. the Austrian & German masters).


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> HERESY.
> 
> Treasonous heresy.


Cannot believe that a man of your high standards would listen to such junk.


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

Sometimes the composer notes that have wrote too much, and correct it. That's the case with Sibeliu's violin concerto. The first version is too long, have several totally unnecessary virtuosic parts and repetitions and is rather boring. Jan made some brutal cuts, and left us with the extraordinary piece we all love.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

moody said:


> Rimsky's vacuous "Scheherazade"--bore,bore!


I disagree with the OP in that I do not think there are any truly 'sacred cows' in literature. I took that statement as a caution to those who have become accustomed to gratuitous bashing, a curious contemporary social more I believe to be a result of a generation so habituated by the anonymity use of the internet allows.

Your named Rimsky-Korsakov work, the majority of Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, and Rachmaninov; a little meat, an elaborately and often solidly constructed sandwich, but with a lot more mayo than meat. It is the endless sequencing "what does me in."

That Franck Violin Sonata - zOMG! If I could push a 'delete button' which would wipe our every extant recording, printed copy, and simultaneously wipe it off the slates of any of those performers who have it fully in their memory banks, I would not hesitate to do so 

ADD: John Rutter and Eric Whitacre -- Junk Food, having 0 nutritional value.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

PetrB said:


> I disagree with the OP in that I do not think there are any truly 'sacred cows' in literature. I took that statement as a caution to those who have become accustomed to gratuitous bashing, a curious contemporary social more I believe to be a result of a generation so habituated by the anonymity that use of the internet allows.
> 
> Your named Rimsky-Korsakov work, the majority of Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, and Rachmaninov; a little meat, an elaborately and often solidly constructed sandwich, but with a lot more mayo than meat. It is the endless sequencing "what does me in."
> 
> That Franck Violin Sonata - zOMG! If I could push a 'delete button' which would wipe our every extant recording, printed copy, and simultaneously wipe it off the slates of any of those performers who have it fully in their memory banks, I would not hesitate to do so


 You exhibit some of the symptoms of the malady _comprehension deficit_. It is endemic, presently incurable, and does the community little harm, so do not be overly concerned.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> You exhibit some of the symptoms of the malady _comprehension deficit_. It is endemic, presently incurable, and does the community little harm, so do not be overly concerned.


Wow - a near directive to roll over and accept a virulent and egregious wet behind the ears new norm: perhaps you are so conditioned to think one must just accept this fairly new _trend_, which would be temporary - _curable_ - but for a little raised awareness.

You are basically saying 'we' should all just accept a form of sometimes rude to vicious sniping, and let mommy and daddy monitors tend to it for us.

'Comprehension deficit' sounds about as neat and trendy a phrase as any mindlessly accepted vogue in fashion. Pity, truly... and if I may 'cluck,' about this one, "Tsk, Tsk."


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Schoenberg's Piano Concerto. It's like those dreadful cheap chicken sandwiches you buy from a newsagent's, where there are tiny scraps of chicken separated by miles and miles of bread. The chicken is extremely poor quality, but you're so glad when you come across it because it brings relief from the boredom of all the bread.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Mendelssohn's Symphony no. 2 - although I can listen to it all I think parts of this work are more like an overstuffed and unwieldy donner kebab.

Could Webern's output be considered as nouvelle cuisine?


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

A few Liszt tone poems - especially _Ce qu'on entend sur la montagne_, which Tovey describes as consisting of 'an introduction to an introduction to a connecting link to another introduction to a rhapsodic interlude, leading to a free development of the third introduction, leading to a series of still more introductory developments of the previous introduction, leading to a solemn slow theme (which, after these twenty minutes, no mortal power will persuade any listener to regard as a real beginning), and so eventually leading backwards to the original mysterious opening by way of conclusion'.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

PetrB said:


> [...]
> 'Comprehension deficit' sounds about as neat and trendy a phrase as any mindlessly accepted vogue in fashion. Pity, truly... and if I may 'cluck,' about this one, "Tsk, Tsk."


"Tsk, Tsk" is probably acceptable language. If you had been so rash as to descend to using "Tish, Tish", well, that maybe would have been pushing the envelope. There's a gray area there.

[The cluck you spell out as 'Tsk, Tsk" can have unexpected consequences - for instance when you are behind a team.]


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Philip Glass. Once you hear the nice rolling arpeggios, you get to hear them over and over for the next two hours. There might not even be bread on that sandwich.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The music of French composer Charles Gounod is plain white bread with no meat at all. 
Bland, bland, bland. Pretty melodies, but to quote Gertrude Stein, there is no there there .
His two best known operas ,Faust and Romeo &Juliet , alternate triteness with saccharine 
sentimentality . 
His "St. Cecelia Mass", is the dullest, most insipid setting of the mass for orchestra, soloists
and chorus I've ever heard. Ditto his two symphonies, and the Petite symphonie for winds .


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

moody said:


> Rimsky's vacuous "Scheherazade"--bore,bore!


In this case I think the problem may not be the lack of meat, but more an excess of cheese.


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## humanbean (Mar 5, 2011)

It's interesting nobody mentions any classical-era composers. That is because, unlike romantic music, classical music is direct, to the point, with little excess. Most of the compositions are perfect, well-balanced meals for the soul.


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## EarthBoundRules (Sep 25, 2011)

I'll admit I don't quite 'get' Rachmaninoff yet, but his piano concertos exactly fit this description. Once in a while there will be a modulation that melts my heart, but it's surrounded by boring passage after boring passage.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Some of Beethoven sounds to me like he worked immensely hard to create a perfect, fantastic, totally awesome bit of music, but then that bit of music is completely exploited, spread out and repeated over the entire length of the piece until the point where it becomes annoying.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

*@ superhorn* - I can understand your criticisms of Gounod, they are commonly held and I think reasonable, but I love some of those works you mention. Eg._ St. Cecilia Mass _& the _Petite Symphonie for winds_. The former for it's schmaltzy feel - it's so bad that it's good kind of thing, like the films of Ed Wood - and the latter for it's Mozartean vibe, what I see as an early form of neo-classicism. So no meat in the sandwich (or not much), yes, but Gounod for me makes it interesting enough for me to want to relisten to these works (his operas I don't know apart from the big arias).

Re Liszt, *jalex* - another member here a while back said he didn't like Liszt's piano music as it sounded to him like an extended cadenza. The whole work, I mean. So again, what Tovey said in that quote makes sense. Then again, Liszt was innovating in these forms, so a bit of experimentation resulting in some duds probably did good for him when he got it right in works that are universally admired.

Re Rimsky Korsakov's _Scheherazade_ - *moody* bought it up - I think his strong point was orchestration, other things are secondary to that. Unusual in terms of the norm, I'd think, but this guy did write a seminal text on orchestration which I think is still used as reference for students of music, etc. So I give credit for his innovations and work in orchestration, but yes, this work for me does get a bit tedious - the _Young Prince and the Princess_, the slow movement - is probably enough for me, as a stand alone work, I rarely listen to the whole thing, I've got it on cd, but it's been years.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Odnoposoff said:


> Sometimes the composer notes that have wrote too much, and correct it. That's the case with Sibeliu's violin concerto. The first version is too long, have several totally unnecessary virtuosic parts and repetitions and is rather boring. Jan made some brutal cuts, and left us with the extraordinary piece we all love.


I take your point on editing having big potential to improve a work and avoid this kind of problem. I can't comment on that work, I have heard both versions, but I know the revised version more from having it on cd. But obviously since he revised it, he wanted it to be a stronger work, esp. since that work was heavily mauled by the critics at it's first performance (the original version).

Same goes with an issue not the topic of this thread, how musicians do second takes of the same works. Glenn Gould did this with Bach's _Goldberg Variations_, and in an interview I've got as a bonus track of his second recording of it (early 1980's), he is quite critical of his earlier interpretation of this work done in the c.1950's.


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

I'm no Handel hater, but my general impression of his operas is "for every gem you have to sit through at least 3 boring, uninspired arias". Rinaldo is probably the only one I would consider actually going to a performance of. The same probably goes for most of his lesser known oratorios. I don't think Handel was any worse than his contemporaries (he was probably better), after all, when it comes to this type of fairly formulaic mid-18th century opera seria, Handel is more or less the only one that's still performed.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Norse said:


> I'm no Handel hater, but my general impression of his operas is "for every gem you have to sit through at least 3 boring, uninspired arias". Rinaldo is probably the only one I would consider actually going to a performance of. The same probably goes for most of his lesser known oratorios. I don't think Handel was any worse than his contemporaries (he was probably better), after all, when it comes to this type of fairly formulaic mid-18th century opera seria, Handel is more or less the only one that's still performed.


Somewhere I have read that castratos were involved in Handel's operas (and those of his contemporaries?) and that the superior quality of the voices of castrato tenors was a significant factor in the success of the operas. Any truth to that?


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Sid James said:


> *@ superhorn* - I can understand your criticisms of Gounod, they are commonly held and I think reasonable, but I love some of those works you mention. Eg._ St. Cecilia Mass _& the _Petite Symphonie for winds_. The former for it's schmaltzy feel - it's so bad that it's good kind of thing, like the films of Ed Wood - and the latter for it's Mozartean vibe, what I see as an early form of neo-classicism. So no meat in the sandwich (or not much), yes, but Gounod for me makes it interesting enough for me to want to relisten to these works (his operas I don't know apart from the big arias).
> 
> Re Liszt, *jalex* - another member here a while back said he didn't like Liszt's piano music as it sounded to him like an extended cadenza. The whole work, I mean. So again, what Tovey said in that quote makes sense. Then again, Liszt was innovating in these forms, so a bit of experimentation resulting in some duds probably did good for him when he got it right in works that are universally admired.
> 
> Re Rimsky Korsakov's _Scheherazade_ - *moody* bought it up - I think his strong point was orchestration, other things are secondary to that. Unusual in terms of the norm, I'd think, but this guy did write a seminal text on orchestration which I think is still used as reference for students of music, etc. So I give credit for his innovations and work in orchestration, but yes, this work for me does get a bit tedious - the _Young Prince and the Princess_, the slow movement - is probably enough for me, as a stand alone work, I rarely listen to the whole thing, I've got it on cd, but it's been years.


On second thought, I change my mind - Scheherazade is pretty much filler except for the third movement.


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Somewhere I have read that castratos were involved in Handel's operas (and those of his contemporaries?) and that the superior quality of the voices of castrato tenors was a significant factor in the success of the operas. Any truth to that?


Yes, castratos sang in Handel's operas (Which is why e.g. the title role in Julius Cesar nowadays can be a trouser role sung by a mezzosoprano.) Castratos could be huge stars because their power and brilliance was greater than that of female singers, and yeah, I would guess having a big star on board could increase ticket sales quite a bit. Maybe some of the boredom of these operas today comes from the fact that our modern singers can't do what they did? Or would it just come across as some 'superficial' brilliance?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DeepR said:


> Some of Beethoven sounds to me like he worked immensely hard to create a perfect, fantastic, totally awesome bit of music, but then that bit of music is completely exploited, spread out and repeated over the entire length of the piece until the point where it becomes annoying.


Don't worry you'll grow out of it.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> On second thought, I change my mind - Scheherazade is pretty much filler except for the third movement.


I knew you'd listen to sense.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I'll come down on the pro-Lakme side. Perhaps it helped that I didn't anticipate much, but I really enjoy it. Of course it seems I enjoy "light" music more than most people are willing to admit. 

I sympathize with the Messiah selection. I just can't get into "and the government shall be upon his shoulders" the way the old estate holders of the empire must have.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

superhorn said:


> The music of French composer Charles Gounod is plain white bread with no meat at all.
> Bland, bland, bland. Pretty melodies, but to quote Gertrude Stein, there is no there there .
> His two best known operas ,Faust and Romeo &Juliet , alternate triteness with saccharine
> sentimentality .
> ...


I think that "Faust" is wonderful, great music and great arias and set pieces.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

PetrB said:


> I disagree with the OP in that I do not think there are any truly 'sacred cows' in literature. I took that statement as a caution to those who have become accustomed to gratuitous bashing, a curious contemporary social more I believe to be a result of a generation so habituated by the anonymity use of the internet allows.
> 
> Your named Rimsky-Korsakov work, the majority of Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, and Rachmaninov; a little meat, an elaborately and often solidly constructed sandwich, but with a lot more mayo than meat. It is the endless sequencing "what does me in."
> 
> ...


Well, you just lost my vote for dictator. You not wanting to hear something I can understand; you wanting me not even to be able to hear it makes me angry. I hope this was just a snobbish joke, but even if so it was a terrible one.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I notice that a lot of the candidates are French. There's certainly a different aesthetic at work in a lot of French music. I guess we could say it is less meaty. Whether there is enough meat or not probably depends mostly on your appetite.


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

Wagner's operas feel this way to me. Incredible tasting meat, but stretched beyond the point where it even tastes good any more.


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

science said:


> I notice that a lot of the candidates are French. There's certainly a different aesthetic at work in a lot of French music. I guess we could say it is less meaty. Whether there is enough meat or not probably depends mostly on your appetite.


There really haven't been many French composers mentioned. Mostly Germans, at least as many Russians as French (and Franck was pretty Germanic for a French composer).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

StevenOBrien said:


> Wagner's operas feel this way to me. Incredible tasting meat, but stretched beyond the point where it even tastes good any more.


Yeah, but I think he's too much meat - way to much - rather than too little. But I agree that he stretches his material beyond my ability to take it in (certainly one opera in one sitting of his is a very rich meal, too rich) & a bit of editing would have gone a long way, imo. However, he was innovating, so what I said about Liszt applies to Wagner. Pushing boundaries was a part of their art.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

*Na,...I'd say I'm doing good in the meat department!*

Seriously, though...and quite ironically, while the 2nd movement is beloved by many and the third revered,...I feel kv466 is a first movement kinda piece. Sure, the other two are good but nowhere nearly as good as the first and I never felt they connected as well as other movements of a concerti do. So why then did I adopt such a name? Well, for those of you who don't know the story, I've been using this name since screenames were invented and at least 20 years. Anyway,...that's one that came to mind. Another for me is the c-minor Beethoven symphony.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Have you heard the song of the Deli employees ? It goes to the tune of "Coming through the Rye." 
"Never pile a stingy sandwich, make it coming through the rye ".










:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Oh, but those "excesses" are whay make Romantic music so much fun !


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Haydn's symphonies. 

There, I said it.

Wagner's operas, are they stretched? Sure, oftentimes, even most of the time, but under the right baton it's seamless.

Mahler's 3rd, 7th, and 9th could be shorter. 

Tchaikovsky's symphonies. 

Handel. 

Bruckner. 

Sibelius. 

Composers who are compact and don't stretch. 

God tier tightness. 

Ravel.
Debussy. 
Stravinsky 
Bach (excluding the recitals in St. Matthews Passion) 
Verdi (there's a reason all his operas save Don Carlo fits on 2 discs). 
Chopin 




Empire State building tier

Late Beethoven 
Mozart
Brahms
Schubert 

BUILDING 7 TIER 

Puccini 


CONDUCTORS THAT STRETCH

Worst offender: Bernstein, Leonard. 

Kar-Kar-Kar-Karajan....


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

jalex said:


> There really haven't been many French composers mentioned. Mostly Germans, at least as many Russians as French (and Franck was pretty Germanic for a French composer).


I was considering mentioning the Russians as well, but it seems that quite a few of the works mentioned by them are of an "Orientalist" nature, and that exoticism might be part of their real or perceived lightness.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

kv466 said:


> *Na,...I'd say I'm doing good in the meat department!*
> 
> Seriously, though...and quite ironically, while the 2nd movement is beloved by many and the third revered,...I feel kv466 is a first movement kinda piece. Sure, the other two are good but nowhere nearly as good as the first and I never felt they connected as well as other movements of a concerti do. So why then did I adopt such a name? Well, for those of you who don't know the story, I've been using this name since screenames were invented and at least 20 years. Anyway,...that's one that came to mind. Another for me is the c-minor Beethoven symphony.


Interesting take. The first several times I heard Kv.466, the middle movement entranced me. Eventually I realized that, for me, the first movement is the key, establishing the atmosphere and sentiment that the rest of the work played upon. Nowadays I usually lose interest partway through the middle movement; the 'story' has been told.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

jalex said:


> There really haven't been many French composers mentioned. Mostly Germans, at least as many Russians as French (and Franck was pretty Germanic for a French composer).


Your feelings about Franck may be explained by the following.
He was actually born in Liege (now Belgium) part of the Walloon area then under Holland's rule.
His father was from the German/Belgium border and his mother was German.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DeepR said:


> Some of Beethoven sounds to me like he worked immensely hard to create a perfect, fantastic, totally awesome bit of music, but then that bit of music is completely exploited, spread out and repeated over the entire length of the piece until the point where it becomes annoying.


This is a description of Beethoven's music that is quite unique.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Badinerie said:


> Yeah? Verdi and and Puccini wrote a lot of French opera then? Silly boogers!
> I can think of better examples in opera, Rusalka's Hymn to the Moon, Vesti la giubba in I Pagliacci. You have to plough through a lot of averageness to find those gems. So hands off Lakme! :scold:


The reason that the Flower Duet is so popular is that British Airways used it for a TV add.
The tenor aria " Ah, viens dans la foret profonde" is superior and to hear John McCormack singing it (altho' in Italian) is a minor miracle.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

StevenOBrien said:


> Wagner's operas feel this way to me. Incredible tasting meat, but stretched beyond the point where it even tastes good any more.


This, as the greater would say, is pure Jeffery go bad to the shadows. Wagner is exact,at as long as he needs to be. And any advice to the co treat is mere noses e. understand?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Another one is *Verdi's Macbeth.* But it has not only one good aria, but several of them, sung by Lady Macbeth. Charting her journey from ambition to guilt, madness and being suicidal. I can do without the rest of the opera, it feels to me like fill in stuff between her big arias. Maria Callas recorded both the whole opera (in mono) and these arias in stereo. Nowadays I just prefer the latter, they are just so good but the work around it..._not enough meat in the sandwich_ kind of deal, basically.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

moody said:


> This is a description of Beethoven's music that is quite unique.


I said some of his music. And of course I don't mean literally repeated all the time. It's just that sometimes I feel like all I'm doing is waiting for the fantastic main theme to be played again and there's nothing interesting in between... because everything else in the piece is filler material derived from the main theme. Violin Concerto 3rd movement, Piano Concerto No. 5 3rd movement come to mind. 
Then there's also some of his music that I do like over the entire length, but that's mostly solo piano music.


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

DeepR said:


> everything else in the piece is filler material derived from the main theme.


You really think it's filler? There's an interesting section on Deryck Cooke's _The Language of Music_ in which he voices the opinion that thematic development in music is often treated very badly by theorists because they stop paying attention to its expressive qualities, noting only the technical aspects of how a theme is transformed. When we talk about the major works of an artist of the quality of Beethoven, it seems more reasonable to start from the view that with those thematic developments he is actually trying to express something and not just wondering how he can pad out the development section or whatever. If you think he hasn't expressed anything satisfactorily, it might be nice if you also explained _why_ you think he hasn't succeeded.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

jalex said:


> You really think it's filler? There's an interesting section on Deryck Cooke's _The Language of Music_ in which he voices the opinion that *thematic development in music is often treated very badly by theorists *because they stop paying attention to its expressive qualities, noting only the technical aspects of how a theme is transformed. When we talk about the major works of an artist of the quality of Beethoven, it seems more reasonable to start from the view that with those thematic developments he is actually trying to express something and not just wondering how he can pad out the development section or whatever. If you think he hasn't expressed anything satisfactorily, it might be nice if you also explained _why_ you think he hasn't succeeded.


Question apropos of the bold: If thematic development is treated so badly by theorists why is Beethoven's reputation so high (among theorists? [I assume that he is.])?



Sid James said:


> Another one is *Verdi's Macbeth.* But it has not only one good aria, but several of them, sung by Lady Macbeth. Charting her journey from ambition to guilt, madness and being suicidal. I can do without the rest of the opera, it feels to me like fill in stuff between her big arias. Maria Callas recorded both the whole opera (in mono) and these arias in stereo. Nowadays I just prefer the latter, they are just so good but the work around it..._not enough meat in the sandwich_ kind of deal, basically.


Do you not like Otello either?


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> Question apropos of the bold: If thematic development is treated so badly by theorists why is Beethoven's reputation so high (among theorists? [I assume that he is.])?


'Treated badly' as in 'written about badly', not 'viewed unfavourably' or even 'misunderstood'. I assume he was referring mostly to second-class music writers anyway.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

science said:


> I was considering mentioning the Russians as well, but it seems that quite a few of the works mentioned by them are of an "Orientalist" nature, and that exoticism might be part of their real or perceived lightness.


Neither should those works get a free pass due to the suspicion that historically they have been undervalued for extra-musical reasons; many composers have incorporated "Oriental" music-substance into their works and have had little trivialization as a result; Verdi's Aida and Debussy's exploration of the pentatonic scale in Pagodees comes to mind. Ravel, an ardent admirer of the Russians, nevertheless admitted that many aspects of their music was primitive. There's no reason why the Austrian-Germanic canon shouldn't be the standard by which others are measured by if it really is the best.


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

Couchie said:


> This, as the greater would say, is pure Jeffery go bad to the shadows. Wagner is exact,at as long as he needs to be. And any advice to the co treat is mere noses e. understand?


Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you just said, but I'll assume. Some people like concise, densely packed music and some people like stretched out music (Some people even like both equally). I'm in the former camp. I'd like to be able to enjoy Wagner though, any recommendations for something more accessible that he wrote to start me out?


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

StevenOBrien said:


> Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you just said, but I'll assume. Some people like concise, densely packed music and some people like stretched out music (Some people even like both equally). I'm in the former camp. I'd like to be able to enjoy Wagner though, any recommendations for something more accessible that he wrote to start me out?


I think what he means is that Wagner is compact when he wants to be compact - I would agree that there are stretched out sections but that the concise sections, and there are a lot of those, are concise. The Love Duet from Act II of Tristan and the Prelude to Act III, for instance. The Transformation Music from Parisfal, both Act I and Act III. The Prelude to Act III of Lohengrin, Hagen's Call in Gotterdammerung.

In Wagner there are long passages of rather mundane speaking linked with transition passages of orchestration and singing which are dazzling and swift, which is what you don't find in Mahler by Couchie's estimation.

I found the entirety of Scene 3 of Act I of Die Walkure from "Wintersturme ..." onward satisfying with no unsatisfactory moments strewn in.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

brianwalker said:


> ...
> 
> Do you not like Otello either?


I don't mind _Otello_, although it's not my favourite, but I fail to see what's that got to do with what I said about _Macbeth_.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

StevenOBrien said:


> Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you just said, but I'll assume. Some people like concise, densely packed music and some people like stretched out music (Some people even like both equally). I'm in the former camp. I'd like to be able to enjoy Wagner though, any recommendations for something more accessible that he wrote to start me out?


Try Tristan und Isolde. On the first listen it may be a bit dull. On the 5th it will leave everything else dull.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> In Wagner there are long passages of rather mundane speaking linked with transition passages of orchestration and singing which are dazzling and swift, which is what you don't find in Mahler by Couchie's estimation.


The narratives are essential to the drama. They're what reveal the inner thoughts and motivations of the characters and define how they relate to each other. They're meant to be understood, not just heard as music like some Italian opera.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

StevenOBrien said:


> Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you just said, but I'll assume. Some people like concise, densely packed music and some people like stretched out music (Some people even like both equally). I'm in the former camp. I'd like to be able to enjoy Wagner though, any recommendations for something more accessible that he wrote to start me out?


Nobody is quite sure about what he says you will learn to ignore most of it.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Steven - a way in could be The Flying Dutchman. It's not his best opera but it's one of his shortest and less complicated plot-wise.


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Try Tristan und Isolde. On the first listen it may be a bit dull. On the 5th it will leave everything else dull.


I already love the prelude (and the postlude?) to this, but I tried listening to the actual opera and ended up falling asleep 40 minutes in. I'll have another go sometime soon.



moody said:


> Nobody is quite sure about what he says you will learn to ignore most of it.


Wagner or Couchie?  Thanks though, I'll take note. I'm pretty new around here.



elgars ghost said:


> Steven - a way in could be The Flying Dutchman. It's not his best opera but it's one of his shortest and less complicated plot-wise.


Thanks, I'll check it out sometime.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

It is disappointing and even peculiar that a composer could come up with a remarkable portion of music only to juxtapose it with its own undoing. I have to wonder if they borrowed that part, perhaps subconsciously, from another composer's work.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

StevenOBrien said:


> I already love the prelude (and the postlude?) to this, but I tried listening to the actual opera and ended up falling asleep 40 minutes in. I'll have another go sometime soon.


The Prelude is a pitiful trifle in the shadow of the constant mind**** that is the entire opera in a single sitting. The 2nd act itself is the golden vaporous perfume sprayed of the goddess' canister.



StevenOBrien said:


> Wagner or Couchie?  Thanks though, I'll take note. I'm pretty new around here.


Do not heed moody. I am sure you know of sundried tomatoes. Moody is a sundried tomato. He knows not of the passion.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

brianwalker said:


> Neither should those works get a free pass due to the suspicion that historically they have been undervalued for extra-musical reasons; many composers have incorporated "Oriental" music-substance into their works and have had little trivialization as a result; Verdi's Aida and Debussy's exploration of the pentatonic scale in Pagodees comes to mind. Ravel, an ardent admirer of the Russians, nevertheless admitted that many aspects of their music was primitive. There's no reason why the Austrian-Germanic canon shouldn't be the standard by which others are measured by if it really is the best.


I am not sure that there is any "really the best." I'd be rather surprised if such a thing could be objectively demonstrated.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

science said:


> I am not sure that there is any "really the best." I'd be rather surprised if such a thing could be objectively demonstrated.


Hah! Especially about a Wagner opera; the term 'best' seems inapplicable to any of them, and 'least worst' is incorrect grammar.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hah! Especially about a Wagner opera; the term 'best' seems inapplicable to any of them, and 'least worst' is incorrect grammar.


I agree. "Best" is only applicable to opera composers who's output is of varying quality, ie. Mozart, Donizetti, and Verdi have a handful of masterpieces in a sea of duds. When it comes to Wagner, there is no point in attempting to ascribe which is the "best", it as folly as trying to decide which of ten 20-carat flawless colourless diamonds is the best.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Couchie said:


> I agree. "Best" is only applicable to opera composers who's output is of varying quality, ie. Mozart, Donizetti, and Verdi have a handful of masterpieces in a sea of duds. When it comes to Wagner, there is no point in attempting to ascribe which is the "best", it as folly as trying to decide which of ten 20-carat flawless colourless diamonds is the best.


However, in another thread, this esteemed gentleman suggests something slightly different :



Couchie said:


> I should point out that Tristan is my favourite and Siegfried my least favourite by a very large margin.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> However, in another thread, this esteemed gentleman suggests something slightly different :


A preference for one opera does not imply its superiority. Blue is my favourite colour, that doesn't mean I think it's "better" than green.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Why do a whole lot of threads here, that have seemingly nothing to do with him, end up being about Wagner? I mean what the hell's going on?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Why do a whole lot of threads here, that have seemingly nothing to do with him, end up being about Wagner? I mean what the hell's going on?


I would have thought Wagner would be high on your list of "Not enough meat in the sandwich"?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^No Couchie, I think quite the opposite, I think he's too much _meat in the sandwich_ for me. That's what I said earlier on this thread in THIS post.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Couchie said:


> The Prelude is a pitiful trifle in the shadow of the constant mind**** that is the entire opera in a single sitting. The 2nd act itself is the golden vaporous perfume sprayed of the goddess' canister.
> 
> Do not heed moody. I am sure you know of sundried tomatoes. Moody is a sundried tomato. He knows not of the passion.


I don't think the moderators would agree with your ridiculous description of me.
How many goddess' involved here---tne modern variety with perfume sprays I presume?
Looking at you I suppose you could well be an old discarded cannister.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Couchie said:


> I agree. "Best" is only applicable to opera composers who's output is of varying quality, ie. Mozart, Donizetti, and Verdi have a handful of masterpieces in a sea of duds. When it comes to Wagner, there is no point in attempting to ascribe which is the "best", it as folly as trying to decide which of ten 20-carat flawless colourless diamonds is the best.


That would explain the results of the recent poll on Wagner.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> "Tsk, Tsk" is probably acceptable language. If you had been so rash as to descend to using "Tish, Tish", well, that maybe would have been pushing the envelope. There's a gray area there.
> 
> [The cluck you spell out as 'Tsk, Tsk" can have unexpected consequences - for instance when you are behind a team.


I am correct to assume that 'Tish-posh' would've been utterly beyond the pale? ;-)


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

"Best" is only applicable to opera composers who's output is of varying quality, ie. Mozart, Donizetti, and Verdi have a handful of masterpieces in a sea of duds. When it comes to Wagner, there is no point in attempting to ascribe which is the "best", it as folly as trying to decide which of ten 20-carat flawless colourless diamonds is the best.

That would explain the results of the recent poll on Wagner.

Would it? Yet what would explain the contrast between that poll and the poll of TC top operas?

*1 Der Ring des Nibelungen (Wagner)-*
*2 Tristan und Isolde (Wagner)*
3 Le Nozze di Figaro (Mozart)-
4 Giulio Cesare (Handel)-
5 Les Troyens (Berlioz)-
6 Don Giovanni (Mozart)-
7 La Traviata (Verdi)-
8 La Boheme (Puccini)-
9 Der Rosenkavalier (Strauss)
*10 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg (Wagner)*
11 Die Zauberflote (Mozart)
12 Carmen (Bizet)
*13 Parsifal (Wagner)*
14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini)
15 Otello (Verdi)
16 Tosca (Puccini)
17 Cosi fan Tutte (Mozart)
18 Wozzeck (Berg)
19 Salome (Strauss)
20 Lucia di Lammermoor (Donizetti)
*21 Lohengrin (Wagner)*
22 Eugene Onegin (Tchaikovsky)
23 Aida (Verdi)
24 Les Contes d'Hoffmann (Offenbach)
25 Don Carlos (Verdi)
26 Rigoletto (Verdi)
27 Elektra (Strauss)
*28 Tannhauser (Wagner)*
29 L'Orfeo (Monteverdi)
30 Moses und Aron (Schoenberg)
31 Norma (Bellini)
32 Boris Godunov (Mussorgsky)
33 Fidelio (Beethoven)
34 Dido and Aeneas (Purcell)
35 La Fanciulla del West (Puccini)
36 Jenufa (Janacek)37 
War and Peace (Prokofiev)
38 Porgy & Bess (Gershwin)
39 Lulu (Berg)
40 Ariodante (Handel)
41 The Bartered Bride (Smetana) 
*42 Der Fliegende Hollander (Wagner) *
43 Falstaff (Verdi) 
44 Turandot (Puccini) 
45 Madama Butterfly (Puccini) 
46 Les Indes Galantes (Rameau) 
47 Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail (Mozart) 
48 Il Trovatore (Verdi) 
49 Simon Boccanegra (Verdi) 
50 Peter Grimes (Britten)

Schizophrenia? Or many who voted don't really listen to opera at all?


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## redrobin (May 26, 2012)

Even though I haven't given up hope, I still listen to the Myaskovsky symphonies hoping something scrumptious will pop up. Same thing for Hans Rott's Symphony in E. For the life of me I can't see why Mahler championed it so much. I've only heard it about 4 times and what I get from it is it's bereft of both contrapuntal angst and strong, memorably melodic bits. I'll be giving it some more listens in the near future, and the Myaskovsky's, so I won't seem so heretical!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

redrobin said:


> Even though I haven't given up hope, I still listen to the Myaskovsky symphonies hoping something scrumptious will pop up. ... I'll be giving it some more listens in the near future, and the Myaskovsky's, so I won't seem so heretical!


I get what you say about _not enough meat in the sandwich _re Myaskovsky. I listen to him more for nostalgic kind of purposes than anything. He's like an offshoot of Tchaikovsky or Glazunov who lived into the mid 20th century. I think he's good, esp. as a tunesmith, but in terms of that kind of neo-romantic kind of aesthetic or style I think guys like Walton and Barber give me more_ meat _to chew on.

& in terms of Hans Rott, I think I've not heard that symphony, I've certainly not owned it on cd.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

STLUKESGUILD.

The list of TC Top Operas is a most unlikely compilation and I would like to know how many people were involved.
The Ring at number one is not credible nor are Giulio Cesare at four or Les Troyens at five .
All my long life I have "known" that Carmen is the most popular opera worldwide, closely followed by Le Nozze, Boheme and Traviata.
The supplier I use is Presto Classical and I note,to my surprise, that they carry 29 full versions of the Ring. But they stock 59 versions of Carmen plus many highlights.
I certainly would not wish to make an issue of this because the dreaded lists can go on and on and prove almost anything.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^That basically correlates with my experience. I've seldom come across Wagnerites, and not a fraction as many as on this forum. But nobody I have met has been as polarised as here. If people like opera, they simply like opera, and have favourites going from there. No need to elevate one thing and put down another. But that's another issue, I won't ramble.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

moody said:


> The list of TC Top Operas is a most unlikely compilation and I would like to know how many people were involved.


The TC Top Operas list was a compilation by _the most discerning_ opera listeners on the planet; take me for example ... We are the quiet connoisseurs of opera. We influence and steer programmes of world opera houses, and influence sponsors and governments on worthy donations for financial support. We know everything there is to know about opera, from Arne's _Artaxerxes_ (1762) to Zemlinsky's _Zwerg_ (1922). The list is never to be questioned, full stop!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

The list of TC Top Operas is a most unlikely compilation and I would like to know how many people were involved. The Ring at number one is not credible nor are Giulio Cesare at four or Les Troyens at five. All my long life I have "known" that Carmen is the most popular opera worldwide, closely followed by Le Nozze, Boheme and Traviata.

Unfortunately, what you know is all wrong. According to Operabase.com the 20 most performed operas... which it would seem would have a strong correlation to popularity... are as follows:

1. Mozart Die Zauberflote 
2. Mozart Don Giovanni 
3. Verdi La Traviata 
4. Mozart Le nozze di Figaro 
5. Puccini La Boheme 
6. Mozart Cosi fan tutte 
7. Bizet Carmen 
8. Puccini Madama Butterfly 
9. Puccini Tosca 
10. Rossini Il barbiere di Siviglia 
11. Verdi Rigoletto 
12. Mozart Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serial 
13. Puccini Turandot 
14. Donizetti Lucia di Lammermoor 
15. Donizetti L'elisir d'amore 
16. Verdi Macbeth 
17. Wagner Der fliegende Holländer 
18. Verdi Aida 
19. Verdi Un Ballo in Maschera 
20. Leoncavallo Pagliacci

Of course popularity has little correlation to quality. It would be quite a stretch to argue that Pagliacci, Carmen... or even Der fliegende Holländer for that matter... is a greater achievement than Tristan und Isolde or the Ring.

_I would like to know how many people were involved._

I don't know "how many" but I do know "who". The members who participated most in this poll were comprised of a core group of hard-core opera aficionados, as opposed to the usual TC members who have little or no liking for opera, yet participate in polls such as Wagner vs Verdi, etc... Seriously... how often do we see the names of Verdi, Donizetti, Bellini, Gluck, or even Rossini pop up in discussion? How often do we see individuals here making comments dismissive of Vivaldi or Handel... or even Mozart... by individuals who have never listened to their operas? I recall a recent dialog in which we were asked to compare Rameau to Couperin... and yet ignore Rameau's operatic achievements.

Not long ago, a great number of the most serious opera fans at TC... led by Almaviva, who almost single-handedly brough about a new passion for opera to this site... moved on to form a new site... become founding members of an opera-centered group(OperaLively.com).

I suspect the popularity of Handel's _Giulio Cesare_ and Berlioz' _Les Troyens_ have much to do with these brilliant recent productions:



















Of course it is also possible that your own perceptions of the opera world are outdated. A great deal of opera that was not available in the past has been rediscovered as part of the HIP movement. Handel has recently become recognized as a major operatic composer. Wagner's major operas... especially the _Ring_ and _Tristan und Isolde_... have long been recognized as standing among the greatest musical... let alone operatic achievements... regardless of popularity. I somehow doubt that Beethoven's late quartets or J.S. Bach _St. Matthew Passion_ are on the top ten lists of favorites either.

I've seldom come across Wagnerites, and not a fraction as many as on this forum. But nobody I have met has been as polarised as here. If people like opera, they simply like opera, and have favourites going from there. No need to elevate one thing and put down another.

Sid, you don't get around much when it comes to opera. Opera is a different beast altogether, and serious opera aficionados (fanatics) are a different breed in themselves. Opera is by far the most polarized field of classical music. Where else do you come across individuals who will passionately defend the superiority of singers who died before they were born, and whose only recordings... made for the Victor Talking Machine Company...make an early cell-phone speaker sound crystal clear? Where else do you find classical music fans throwing the most vulgar and vile of insults at any singer... often the most brilliant of singers... simply because they prefer another? Where else do you find individuals obsessively collecting dozens of recordings of the same work... in different performances... many 50 years old and recorded live?

Obviously, if you are of the belief that Composer A or Composition Q are the greatest, this... by it's very nature... presumes that Composer A is greater than Composer B and Composition Q is greater than Composition X. But seriously... setting up the notion that anyone who feels Wagner is one of the greatest composers of all time... and quite possibly the greatest operatic composer... is akin to tearing down everything else, is essentially (to use a favored terminology) a "false dichotomy". I love Wagner... but I'd probably place Mozart's operas, _Don Giovanni, Le Nozze di Figaro_, and _The Magic Flute_ at the top of my list of favorite/greatest operas... only then followed by _Tristan und Isolde_ and the _Ring_. _La Traviata_ wouldn't be far behind.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

I'm sure that I'm out of date, but my four operas that I mentioned are in the top seven of your list, that's more than can be said for the TC panels choices.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I'm sure that I'm out of date, but my four operas that I mentioned are in the top seven of your list, that's more than can be said for the TC panels choices.

But ultimately... how much correlation is there between popularity and actual artistic merit?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> .....
> Sid, you don't get around much when it comes to opera. Opera is a different beast altogether, and serious opera aficionados (fanatics) are a different breed in themselves. Opera is by far the most polarized field of classical music. Where else do you come across individuals who will passionately defend the superiority of singers who died before they were born, and whose only recordings... made for the Victor Talking Machine Company...make an early cell-phone speaker sound crystal clear? Where else do you find classical music fans throwing the most vulgar and vile of insults at any singer... often the most brilliant of singers... simply because they prefer another? Where else do you find individuals obsessively collecting dozens of recordings of the same work... in different performances... many 50 years old and recorded live?...


Okay, let's say opera fans or lovers are_ a different breed_, as you say. What I'm saying is what I've said a lot of the times here. Wagner is not typical of opera for various reasons. On reflection of decades earlier here, Verdi's _Aida_ and I think Puccini's _Turandot_ have been staged in stadiums here. Wagner would not fill a stadium here, even to half, I would guess.

But then we get to what you said here to moody -



StlukesguildOhio said:


> ...
> But ultimately... how much correlation is there between popularity and actual artistic merit?


So we go around in circles. Better, I think, we just admit our biases. But I shouldn't have gotten involved in your argument/discussion with him. I don't care for lists on this site or any other site, basically. Not even of instrumental works, let alone opera. But as I said, wierd how so many threads now end up as a discussion of Wagner. Yet more proof that the scale on this forum is atypically tipped towards him for whatever reason. Not, I think, reflecting the wider world, _the real world_. But I'll just leave it there. It's like sisyphus. We can roll the boulder up and down a million mountains and get absolutely nowhere with this. You enjoy your Wagner, and I'll enjoy what I do & moody can do the same.


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## SimpleMan (May 29, 2012)

This is probably already listed, but Haydn's surprise. Once you get past the "surprise", it's all basic form and progression.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I'm sure that I'm out of date, but my four operas that I mentioned are in the top seven of your list, that's more than can be said for the TC panels choices.
> 
> But ultimately... how much correlation is there between popularity and actual artistic merit?ST
> STLUKESGUILD,
> ...


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I could make a lizst of all the composers who, when I'm chopin down on their sandwiches, come up a little meatless. But, I won't.


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