# How fast is fast enough?



## BobBrines (Jun 14, 2018)

One of the tenets of HIP performance is that the tempi of Baroque and Classical works have been too slow. I totally agree with this premise particularly with Haydn/Mozart/Beethoven. However, I am wondering if perhaps fast tempi for Baroque sonatas and solo concertos are overdone - simply as fast as the performer is able to go. The sense of the music itself gets obfuscated by the speed with which the notes go by. Case in point:

I am a modestly talented recorder player and I am preparing Vivaldi's sonata RV 806. There is no way I can keep up with the pros. Federico Sardelli (a bonified expert on Vivaldi flute music) takes the second movement in 1 at ~72 beats/minute 



 and the 4th movement in 1 at ~130 



 . But Vivaldi lifted the first several measures of the 2nd movement from the mandolin solo from "Juditha Triumphans: Transit ætas" 



 . Here the tempo is in 3 at ~110. Kind of an "Oh. That's wat Vivaldi meant" movement.

I intend to do the first movement in 1 at 60 and the 4th in 1 at 120. Comments?

Bob


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Physical limitations are one thing, but if that's no problem (and even if it is). sometimes you just have to select the tempo by "feel." Don't be afraid to use your own judgment based on how the music seems to go and the tempo that seens to be "right."


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Both the 130 and 110 bpm sound good to me.

I agree with you that there's a tendency to go fast for no reason in HIP, sometimes to the point of absurdity...for example this performance of the last movement of the third Brandenburg, from a generally good set, which pretty much sounds like circus music to me:


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

There its this tendency to substitute speed for excitement. My music teacher used to tell me that Toscanini's performances sounded faster than other people's because he insisted on precision playing. Certainly Chailly's set of Beethoven symphonies is absurdly fast. The correct speed is what feels right, which might not necessarily be the metronome mark.


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I would keep in mind the relative speeds among the four movements. The first is marked Andante, then comes Allegro, then Largo, then again Allegro. Your Allegros do not have to sound as fast as Sardelli’s as long as they sound fast enough by contrast with regard to the two slower movements. All that I believe is required of you is that don’t want your Allegros to sound like Moderatos and drag and sound dull. You can give the illusion of speed even though it’s lower than Sardelli’s. His fourth movement Allegro was too fast for me, it sounded rushed. So even he has two different speeds for his Allegros. In other words, you can adjust the speed of the slower movements to make the Allegros sound faster.


----------



## premont (May 7, 2015)

DavidA said:


> The correct speed is what feels right, which might not necessarily be the metronome mark.


Yes, precisely.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

isorhythm said:


> Both the 130 and 110 bpm sound good to me.
> 
> I agree with you that there's a tendency to go fast for no reason in HIP, sometimes to the point of absurdity...for example this performance of the last movement of the third Brandenburg, from a generally good set, which pretty much *sounds like circus music to me*:


Or a Mendelssohn scherzo.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I know little about HIP (except, perhaps, that I need one replaced!) but I would wonder if those contemporaries of Vivaldi et.al. actually played the pieces really fast. After all, the instruments were likely a bit less durable than modern instruments, especially instruments such as recorders which are not as easy to play fast as on a modern metal, keyed flute. And one would think that modern violin strings will sustain quicker playing than the 18th century type strings. So even if a recorder player _could_ go quickly on his instrument, the strings might not be able to keep up as a matter of their nature. Let alone valveless horns. So ...

I don't recall having heard Mravinsky conduct a Baroque piece, but I do know his Tchaikovsky tends to swing at a fast pace. I wonder if the Russian conductor would have had such success if everyone played baroque violins in the Leningrad Philharmonic.

On the other hand, Celibidache tends to slow-down his tempi to the point of stillness. His Tchaikovsky lingers in the air long after Mravinsky has left the concert hall and is getting on to his dinner. One of the great pleasures of LPs and the turntable is that I can play my Celibidache discs at 45 rpm and sort of get the feeling that Mravinsky is on the podium.

In other words, tempo is a lot of common sense coupled with informed performance practice. All the movements, even at differing tempi, must mesh to create a work that is in some sense "whole". Again, this is a combination of common sense and informed practice. Which I think are qualities a musician who is concerned enough to ask a question about tempo already has in abundance, so I'm not too worried about what BobBrines will produce with the RV 806. I bet it will turn out just right!


----------



## Guest (Oct 16, 2018)

Baroque adagios are probably considerably slower than how modern performers play them so that musicians could play much more complex embellishments than one would usually hear nowadays. Tempi were often taken at whatever speed is the most comfortable for musicians, unless extreme speed was being used as some kind effect.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I’m a great believer in slower performances. Two reasons. 

It helps the listener to absorb the ideas, both musical and verbal. It’s easy to miss things in fast performances. 

It helps stop the listener noticing that the performer is a virtuoso, it highlights the performer’s expressive capability, rather than his instrumental or vocal skills.

The trick is to avoid the reverential solemnity and sentimentality of romanticism. I’m listening right now to some Dowland, admittedly not baroque but still, played on a lute by Toru Sakurada. It is slow and not at all maudlin. So it can be done.


----------



## BobBrines (Jun 14, 2018)

Thanks for all of the advise. I'll take the fast movements at a speed that I am comfortable.

It helps that each movement of RV 806 is vastly different in flavor. 1 is a French overture, 2 is the ritornello for a love song, 3 is a Sicilian and 4 is sort of a gigue/moto perpetuo -- which hadn't been invented yet, but hey!

Bob


----------



## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> I'm a great believer in slower performances. Two reasons.
> 
> It helps the listener to absorb the ideas, both musical and verbal. It's easy to miss things in fast performances.
> 
> It helps stop the listener noticing that the performer is a virtuoso, it highlights the performer's expressive capability, rather than his instrumental or vocal skills.


But how slow is slow enough, and when is it too slow?


----------



## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Over the past couple of years, when as a composer I write fast music, I first let it be as fast as I perceive it. Then after some time I begin to substitute a slighter slower MM. And over the course of a few more days, I sub even slightly slower tempi until anything slower than the previous one no longer feels right and that's the tempo mark I go with.


----------

