# Who was the composer who became despondant when he realised we would one day "run out of new music"?



## Mr Rob (3 mo ago)

Some years ago I caught part of a documentary (could even have been a doc for kids on the BBC).

One thing that stuck in my mind was the story of a classical composer who had done the maths and figured out that there were only so many combinations of musical notes and that eventually, we would use up all the melodies.

Apparently, he became quite depressed and saddened at the thought that haunted him throughout his career.
He may or may not have given up writing music as a result (could be mistaken on that fact).

I've searched Google and have so far had no luck. Any insights would be hugely appreciated! Thank you in advance!

[I'm going to say this was a composer in the Victorian/Edwardian era]


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

In a sense that's what "The Unanswered Question" by Ives was getting at!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I don't know, but I can deduce a clue from what you've written: he was bad at mathematics.


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## janwillemvanaalst (5 mo ago)

That particular composer had apparently not read Bernstein's 'novel':








The Infinite Variety of Music (Amadeus): Leonard Bernstein: 0884088162115: Amazon.com: Books


The Infinite Variety of Music (Amadeus) [Leonard Bernstein] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Infinite Variety of Music (Amadeus)



www.amazon.com


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

The philosopher John Stuart Mill made an argument that there will come a time— if it has not been reached already— when all the great works of music have already been written. He writes:

_The octave consists only of five tones and two semi-tones, which can be put together in only a limited number of ways, of which but a small proportion are beautiful: most of these, it seemed to me, must have been already discovered, and there could not be room for a long succession of Mozarts and Webers, to strike out, as these had done, entirely new and surpassingly rich veins of musical beauty._

His idea is that there are only a finite number of notes which can be combined in only a finite number of ways. Many of the ways will be awful. Of those that are not, many have already been discovered and documented by great composers. Mill recounts that as a young man he was “seriously tormented” by this line of thought, but notably this confession is in his autobiography rather than in one of his philosophical works. He makes light of it in retrospect, offering it as evidence of the dark place he was in rather than suggested it as a real concern. The torment, he writes, was “very characteristic both of my then state, and of the general tone of my mind at this period of my life.”


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> The philosopher John Stuart Mill made an argument that there will come a time— if it has not been reached already— when all the great works of music have already been written. He writes:
> 
> _The octave consists only of five tones and two semi-tones, which can be put together in only a limited number of ways, of which but a small proportion are beautiful: most of these, it seemed to me, must have been already discovered, and there could not be room for a long succession of Mozarts and Webers, to strike out, as these had done, entirely new and surpassingly rich veins of musical beauty._
> 
> His idea is that there are only a finite number of notes which can be combined in only a finite number of ways. Many of the ways will be awful. Of those that are not, many have already been discovered and documented by great composers. Mill recounts that as a young man he was “seriously tormented” by this line of thought, but notably this confession is in his autobiography rather than in one of his philosophical works. He makes light of it in retrospect, offering it as evidence of the dark place he was in rather than suggested it as a real concern. The torment, he writes, was “very characteristic both of my then state, and of the general tone of my mind at this period of my life.”


...which demonstrates why he became a philosopher and not a mathematician


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> I don't know, but I can deduce a clue from what you've written: he was bad at mathematics.


ZING!!!


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Becca said:


> ...which demonstrates why he became a philosopher and not a mathematician


Mill became an eminent logician, but as a young man who was severely depressed and suicidal he was not making calculations but expressing his despair and feelings of utter hopelessness.


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## Hogwash (5 mo ago)

Wasn't Bruckner obsessed with counting stars and every time he went outside at night would obsessively take count with a sense of urgency?! He must have thought there were a limited fixed number of stars in total and he would have seen "them all" when he was finished with his count.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

We will run out of great new music when a monkey has written the Eroica without knowing the original. That means, for all practical purposes, never.


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## Hogwash (5 mo ago)

Enthusiast said:


> We will run out of great new music when a monkey has written the Eroica without knowing the original. That means, for all practical purposes, never.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Hogwash said:


> View attachment 176997










_*"So he is no more than a common mortal! Now, too, he will tread under foot all the rights of Man, indulge only his ambition; now he will think himself superior to all men, become a tyrant!"*_​


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> We will run out of great new music when a monkey has written the Eroica without knowing the original. That means, for all practical purposes, never.


A mathematician might say, change a few notes in the Eroica and you have a different work, yes, but it's not going to be appreciated as music. And therefore you have proof that it's not infinite.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> We will run out of great new music when a monkey has written the Eroica without knowing the original. That means, for all practical purposes, never.


"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?"


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Luchesi said:


> A mathematician might say, change a few notes in the Eroica and you have a different work, yes, but it's not going to be appreciated as music. And therefore you have proof that it's not infinite.


I think there are a good few conductors who have done that!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Luchesi said:


> A mathematician might say, change a few notes in the Eroica and you have a different work, yes, but it's not going to be appreciated as music. And *therefore you have proof that it's not infinite*.


Proof that what's not infinite?


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

The space of our pattern recognition.


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## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

Not sure who said that, but Stravinsky essentially said the opposite:

_"I know that the twelve notes in each octave and the variety of rhythm offer me opportunities that all of human genius will never exhaust"_
-Igor Stravinsky


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Another tip ..... drop the BBC a line, the music departement is very helpful .


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