# Why is Solti's Tristan so bad?



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I count on Solti for being a great - if not definitive - rendering of Wagner.

That said, why is his Tristan und Isolde so utterly inept? Even by his own recollection, he wanted to re-record this opera with Norman. I think he just didn't "get" Tristan.


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## Byron (Mar 11, 2017)

Couchie said:


> I count on Solti for being a great - if not definitive - rendering of Wagner.


Well there was your first mistake.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> I count on Solti for being a great - if not definitive - rendering of Wagner.
> 
> That said, why is his Tristan und Isolde so utterly inept? Even by his own recollection, he wanted to re-record this opera with Norman. I think he just didn't "get" Tristan.


Solti's was my second _Tristan_ on LP, after Furtwangler's. It was a huge letdown. I haven't heard it for over forty years but recall my impressions vividly. It's faults? The engineering is bad, with the singers sounding small and distant, buried under the screaming orchestra. Solti's conception lacks inwardness, depth, romance and a sense of the long line; it's noisy and hard-edged, shallow and, in quiet moments, bland. Fritz Uhl is an underweight, uninteresting Tristan. Arnold van Mill is a dull Marke. Regina Resnik sounds matronly. Even Nilsson, besides being badly captured by the engineers, is less interesting than she was later under Bohm. Only Tom Krause's Kurwenal is really satisfying.

As for the "why"... _Das kann ich dir nicht sagen; und was du frägst, das kannst du nie erfahren._


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2018)

I do tend to give Solti the benefit of the doubt with Tristan und Isolde, but I never thought the singers were particularly interesting in this recording either especially since we have a fairly extensive overview of recordings from the 40s, 50s and 60s that provide many examples of great, or at least _interesting_, musicianship and interpretation. I don't think it's wise to count on anyone being definitive for Wagner, especially Solti, but also going back to Krauss, Keilberth, Kempe, Knappertsbusch, Furtwängler et al even if they have a kind of authoritative status. In fact, the 'authoritative' status is where I begin to get sceptical anyway. Solti's Ring sounds weird to me in contrast to the Rings of the aforementioned conductors whom I'd rather listen to anyway.

I hope I don't sound too grumpy, btw, I just love the musicianship and interpretative imagination from that golden era of Bayreuth.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Byron said:


> Well there was your first mistake.


I have to disagree. I don't think any of his recordings are my absolute favorite, but Solit's Dutchmann, Tannhauser, Lohengrin, Ring, Meistersinger and Parsifal are all very capable. It's only Tristan I find unworthy.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Everytime people praise the young Georg Solti for the merits of Decca's Wagner, a Rhinemaiden loses a gold ingot.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Couchie said:


> I have to disagree. I don't think any of his recordings are my absolute favorite, but Solit's Dutchmann, Tannhauser, Lohengrin, Ring, Meistersinger and Parsifal are all very capable. It's only Tristan I find unworthy.


The non-Tristan recordings are largely successful because they're a) better cast and b) better recorded. I think that in general, Wooduck's evaluation of Solti's conducting of Tristan ("Solti's conception lacks inwardness, depth, romance and a sense of the long line; it's noisy and hard-edged, shallow and, in quiet moments, bland.") also applies to his other Wagner recordings.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I come down somewhere between, and really agree with both, Couchie and wkasimer on Solti's Wagner, although I haven't heard all of it. I enjoy most of his _Ring_ for its vividness and energy. The _Rheingold_ and _Siegfried_ sound fresh and youthful, and the _Gotterdammerung_ achieves real grandeur. But even as a very young Wagnerite in the LP days I noticed Solti's frequent failure to sustain the intensity and give life and shape to quiet passages, or to do justice to some of the somber, mysterious colors in the orchestration. Technicolor works well for a lot of Wagner, but often we want the dusky hues and dark glow that Furtwangler understood better than anyone. I'm probably most particular about _Tristan_ and _Parsifal,_ and in the latter I found Solti very respectable - surprisingly, in that the score would seem to play to his weaknesses. "Respectable," of course, isn't the word for Knappertsbusch in this work!


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I don't much care for most of what Solti released in the 50s or 60s but I do think he got better over time. Some of his later recordings--Lohengrin, Meisteringser 2, Ballo 2--are quite good, without the episodic, mechanical and bombastic leadership of his earlier recordings and with more feeling and engagement in the lyrical moments.


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## Byron (Mar 11, 2017)

Couchie said:


> I have to disagree. I don't think any of his recordings are my absolute favorite, but Solit's Dutchmann, Tannhauser, Lohengrin, Ring, Meistersinger and Parsifal are all very capable. It's only Tristan I find unworthy.


"Very capable" is a long jump from "great, if not definitive". I was just having some fun with you. I actually like some of Solti's recordings. But for every single one of Wagner's operas there is always at least one other recording I prefer to his, and another conductor who I believe is able to convey the essence of the music and the drama better than he does. With the possible exception of Tannhauser...but only then because his is one of two available options if I want to hear the superior Paris version.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Byron said:


> "Very capable" is a long jump from "great, if not definitive". I was just having some fun with you. I actually like some of Solti's recordings. But for every single one of Wagner's operas there is always at least one other recording I prefer to his, and another conductor who I believe is able to convey the essence of the music and the drama better than he does. With the possible exception of Tannhauser...but only then because his is one of two available options if I want to hear the superior Paris version.


It's shocking that there's never been a great recording of the Paris _Tannhauser._ But given the present state of singing, I don't expect we'll get it.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Byron said:


> "Very capable" is a long jump from "great, if not definitive". I was just having some fun with you. I actually like some of Solti's recordings. But for every single one of Wagner's operas there is always at least one other recording I prefer to his, and another conductor who I believe is able to convey the essence of the music and the drama better than he does. With the possible exception of Tannhauser...but only then because his is one of two available options if I want to hear the superior Paris version.


Did I write this?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Granate said:


> Did I write this?


No. I did. ..............


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> No. I did. ..............


Are Star and Byron your two B accounts? :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Granate said:


> Are Star and Byron your two B accounts? :lol:


As much as they are yours. 

EDIT: I seem to be collapsing into absurdity. It's past my bedtime and someone on another thread has been driving me batty with his stubborn, specious arguments. I'll mention no names. Good night.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I seem to be collapsing into absurdity. It's past my bedtime and someone on another thread has been driving me batty with his stubborn, specious arguments. I'll mention no names. Good night.


Good night! I just woke up hahahahaha


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Byron said:


> "Very capable" is a long jump from "great, if not definitive". I was just having some fun with you. I actually like some of Solti's recordings. But for every single one of Wagner's operas there is always at least one other recording I prefer to his, and another conductor who I believe is able to convey the essence of the music and the drama better than he does. With the possible exception of Tannhauser...but only then because his is one of two available options if I want to hear the superior Paris version.


His _Gotterdammerung _might be definitive. It's still not my favorite though. 

The point is his _Tristan_ is not in my listening circulation, and I can't imagine it ever being.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Actually, this Tristan is far from being a lousy performance . True, Decca could have done better than Fritz Uhl , but he's not terrible and doesn't ruin the overall recording . 
It' unfortunate Solti died shortly before he was to record Tristan again, and this might have been magnificent , but his conducting on the recording is still passionate and stirring . It remains an underrated Tristan .


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

To hear some of the shortcomings of the studio 61 Solti recording compare to the live 60 MET saturday radio broadcast performance where Nilsson is much more animated and dramatic helped by a more inspired and insightful conductor in Bohm (his later 66 DG Tristan perhaps most famous recording) and better overall cast. When I relistened to 61 Solti is was flat and comparatively uninspired, like playing the notes but no magic in the music, the final leibestod did nothing to really inspire me........Nilsson soars in the 60 MET final transfiguration consumed in glorious rapture, fully engaged here. Overall this has more of the long line organic flow and depth you hear in classic 52 Furtwangler for instance.

Vinay (1yr from retirement) provides more nuanced and experinced Tristan to match Nilsson, his darker tone and vocal weight seem more natural fit even if his youth freshness we heard in 52 Karajan is now behind him, his night love scence with Isolde shows off this artistry, Uhl seems lightweight both in tone and character depth by comparison

60 MET Brangane of Irene Dalis is far more inspired (one of our favorite MET and Bayreuth wagner singers) and Jerome Hines provides a Marke of real stature, finally the singers receive well balanced closely focused sound (Decca Solti can sound distant at times) and Pristine XR is excellent quality as usual.......


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I think I have written before about the genesis of the Solti Tristan. Culshaw had got it into his head that Solti wax the 'great Wagner conductor of our age' probably for his preference in overstatement rather than understatement in conducting . Solti was chosen ahead of Knapoersbusch as Culshaw found the old guy difficult to work with in recording and was also convinced that Kna was incapable of delivering in the studio what Culshaw reckned had been one of the great operatic experiences of his life - a Kna Tristan in Munich. Nilsson was determined to record Tristan and was not prepared to wait for Windgassen to finish his contract with DG so after a long search around Europe Uhl was engaged. He learned the role of Tristan especially for the recording. 
As for the rest , Culshaw admits in his memoirs that they were going about things in the most difficult way possible as Solti (as Sir G admitted later in his menoirs) was too inexperienced in the opera itself. They also ran foul of Karajan who was not pleased to see 'his' opera house orchestra being conducted by a rival in what he considered one of his his speciality operas. HvK therefore sabotaged the recording sessions by demanding and getting some recording sessions of his own at the same time which meant the whole Tristan soundstage had to be taken to pieces and reassembled each day. 
Looking back it appears that Decca were quite brainless in going ahead with the project as it stood. Of course the disks acclaimed at the time and were a best seller but that is more of a sign of the rarity of discs of complete Wagner at the time. Solti was never satisfied with the actual recording either which tends to favour the orchestra too much. Not that the singing is terribly good. Nilsson is in terrific voice but as someone has said she is clad in stainless steel armour. In fact the lovers have been described as a spider pair with a powerless male and a devouring female! Well I am a great admirer of Nilsson's voice itself, I never found it a very lovable voice and she certainly doesn't make us love Isolde in this set. As I find Wagner's characters difficult to love anyway this, together with Solti's lumpy conducting, does not endear this set.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

> I think I have written before about the genesis of the Solti Tristan. Culshaw had got it into his head that Solti wax the 'great Wagner conductor of our age' probably for his preference in overstatement rather than understatement in conducting . *Solti was chosen ahead of Knapoersbusch as Culshaw found the old guy difficult to work with in recording and was also convinced that Kna was incapable of delivering in the studio what Culshaw reckned had been one of the great operatic experiences of his life - a Kna Tristan in Munich*. Nilsson was determined to record Tristan and was not prepared to wait for Windgassen to finish his contract with DG so after a long search around Europe Uhl was engaged. He learned the role of Tristan especially for the recording.


Yes David it is well known that Knap did not enjoy the studio recording process or even rehearsals in general before performances, seems Culshaw kept going back to Solti not really because of his Wagner artistry but because he was willing to take direction from producer to engineer a performance, a willing and eager partner.......

I did not know that 61 Solti studio was Uhl's first Tristan, hate to say but his lack of depth shows when compared to Windgassen or Vinay's rich portrayals of Tristan.....

HVK doing what HVK does best, control everything and be center of attention


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> Yes David it is well known that Knap did not enjoy the studio recording process or even rehearsals in general before performances, seems Culshaw kept going back to Solti *not really because of his Wagner artistry but because he was willing to take direction from producer to engineer a performance, a willing and eager partner.......*
> 
> I did not know that 61 Solti studio was Uhl's first Tristan, hate to say but his lack of depth shows when compared to Windgassen or Vinay's rich portrayals of Tristan.....
> 
> *HVK doing what HVK does best, control everything and be center of attention*


Culshaw's memoirs show he was convinced that Solti was a great Wagner conductor but they also show that Solti was a willing partner, a tremendous worker and apparently pretty easy to work with in the beginning. In the end Culshaw recounts that Solti became very powerful within Decca and became less malleable. We must give Culshaw credit for his incredible vision in pioneering the possibilities of stereo recording even though he overdid it sometimes for more conservative tastes. Karajan, of course, was being Karajan, but he was rather a good conductor and it is a pity that Culshaw didn't have him conduct his Tristan at that time, especially after Bayreuth 1952. Interestingly, many of Karajan's best recordings were made opposite an equally strong personality - Legge, Culshaw. When he became (as Culshaw put it) 'knee deep in doormats' some of his recordings were marred by his own quirks.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I have to agree that with Karajan in place of Solti, Culshaw's _Tristan_ would have been more of a contender even with a mostly suboptimal cast. It still would have suffered from the orchestra-heavy perspective Decca was into at that time, and from the related problem of how to record Birgit Nilsson's voice so as to do justice to its power without blowing out the recording equipment. They had pretty well solved the problem in the _Gotterdammerung_ of 1964 and the _Elektra_ from the following year.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The sound of the orchestra sometimes overwhelms the singers. Birgit Nilsson recalls one of the recording sessions from the Solti Tristan:
“He (Solti) revelled in climax and couldn’t get the orchestra to be strong enough. Once at a rehearsal he repeated the same section over and over again. Resnik and I were sitting on stage waiting for our turn. Finally the orchestral volume became almost unbearable and at the sixth climax we decided to fall down from our chairs as struck by lightning. We attracted great attention lying there like two dead fish, and of course we had the laughing orchestra on our side. Somewhat reluctantly Solti joined in the mirth. After this outburst the rehearsal could continue under more relaxed conditions.”


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

When Culshaw worried that a crash may not be loud enough, Solti replied, ''Don't be afraid about the crash, and you'll just explode in your chair.''


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

In 1971 New York Times of ROH Tristan:

From the purely musical end, everything was shipshape. Mr. Solti had the fine Royal Opera orchestra playing like the Vienna Philharmonic. The textures, the balances, most of the solo playing, the rich and sensuous tone—this was orchestral playing to remember. And Mr. Solti never pushed, never drowned out the singers, yet never lost the grand line that he, above all present‐day conductors, brings to Wagner.

This in contrast to what happens in recording


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

superhorn said:


> Actually, this Tristan is far from being a lousy performance . True, Decca could have done better than Fritz Uhl , but he's not terrible and doesn't ruin the overall recording .
> It' unfortunate Solti died shortly before he was to record Tristan again, and this might have been magnificent , but his conducting on the recording is still passionate and stirring . It remains an underrated Tristan .


I agree. I quite like the Solti Tristan. I find it to be an exciting performance. Tristan isn't amongst my favorites, so I don't listen to it too often, but when I do it's the Solti.


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