# Greatest Schubert sonatas



## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

Hi all! Schubert's sonatas have always been a treasure for me, and I have considered the last six sonatas, starting with D 845 to be equal in quality and stature to the greatest music ever written for the piano. But for long they were neglected, and still many people shy away from them partly because of their length. And also, many focus only on the last three sonatas, especially D 960. This is a work of transcendental quality and may well be his greatest sonata, but the other five are also masterpieces!

So what is your favorite sonata by Schubert of the last six ones? You can name more than one if you want.
And which sonata would you consider to be his greatest, if not D 960?
Would you consider D 845 and D 850 to be underrated works, of are they not as great as the last four sonatas?
Discuss! Not only these questions but I would love it if we talk around the subject of these sonatas, which deserve better than to constantly be compared to the sonatas of Beethoven and stand in his shadow!


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

My favorite is D 959 followed by D 894 - then D 960 and D 958. 

No, I don't find D 845 and 850 underrated, and I don't find Beethoven's piano sonatas more rewarding than Schubert's.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I believe a few of his late sonatas are on par with Beethoven, but I would reluctantly take Beethoven's immortal last four sonatas over Schubert's last three. Schubert's sonatas are about subtle workmanship in order to produce a sustained expressive realm, which you can definitely see signs of in late Beethoven pieces such as the second movement of his final sonata. The problem is that Schubert didn't really bloom until his final seven sonatas, while pretty much every one of Beethoven's retains interest. Why compare them anyway! They're lovely works in their own right. I would probably go for No. 19 in C minor first- a strophic slow movement that reminds me of Beethoven's _Pathetique_, and a breathless whirlwind of a finale which showcases, in my opinion, the pinnacle of Schubert's piano writing. My next two favorites are No. 18 in G major (best when you're in a patient mood for reflection), and No. 21 in B flat major, which I find overrated (the finale, though admirable, doesn't seem to adequately sum up the beauty and profundity of the first two movements). And finally, No. 16 in A minor is also a very lovely work (No. 17 in D major I view as the weakest of his late sonatas due to its excessively repetitive nature).


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Interesting subject to me. Do any of you have opinions on the following performers vis-a-vis Schubert's Sonatas?


Volodos (Grammaphone seems to love him.)
Jan Vermeulen (Complete Set on Early Piano)
Paul Badura Skoda (Early complete on modern piano and later on early piano -- he also completes the incomplete sonatas unlike most other pianists (which I like). he has been my go to performer but his phrasing can sound flat and monochromatic next to Brautigam, but Brautigam, to my knowledge, hasn't recorded any Schubert)
Brendel (maybe my preferred at the moment?)
Schiff (Early complete and now some amazing performances on early piano) 
Wilhelm Kempff (My first set but he always struck me as too "romantic"---banging at the keyboard sometimes)
Uchida (who Volodos reminds me of)

And then the various other pianists who cherry pick the late sonatas....


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

vtpoet said:


> [*]Wilhelm Kempff (My first set but he always struck me as too "romantic"---banging at the keyboard sometimes)


There's an early Kempff recording with 845 and 960 which is outstanding.



vtpoet said:


> [*]Volodos (Grammaphone seems to love him.)


I think the extraordinary refinement of the piano playing silences any reservations about the interpretation. He's a latter day Benno Moiseiewitsch.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

vtpoet said:


> And then the various other pianists who cherry pick the late sonatas....


There are just too many, but one I've been really liking recently is Aki Takahashi, here


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> I think the extraordinary refinement of the piano playing silences any reservations about the interpretation. He's a latter day Benno Moiseiewitsch.


I might pick up the two Volodos CDs. I listen to them on Spotify but the sound quality can't match a CD and decent stereo.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> There are just too many, but one I've been really liking recently is Aki Takahashi, here...


Thanks. Just started listening to it right now, on spotify, as I write. Will get back to you.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

vtpoet said:


> I might pick up the two Volodos CDs. I listen to them on Spotify but the sound quality can't match a CD and decent stereo.


The latest one is the one to hear I think.


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

Let us not forget the C major, D.840. Even in its unfinished state it's one of the greatest achievements of Schubert in the field of piano music.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The last three sonatas. Interpreters?

Brendel
Pollini
Richter
Kempff
Gilels
Perahia
Schnabel
Fleisher
A Fischer
Kovacevich


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Janspe said:


> Let us not forget the C major, D.840. Even in its unfinished state it's one of the greatest achievements of Schubert in the field of piano music.


It's difficult with that long, repetitive, directionless first movement. But there's something about it which catches my imagination. It's the most Feldman like of all the Schubert sonatas I've heard.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

I was thinking of making a thread about Schubert's late sonatas! I never paid much interest before but returning to them recently I'm stunned, I can't stop listening to them. It should be impossible but it feels like each theme is more beautiful and lyrical than the last...

It's not counted with the final three but my favourite has to be the G major, just so calm and lovely:


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

Paul badura-skoda.





.

He explains it perfeclty, better that I ever could why I like, love, adore schubert. I miss then both , schubert and Mr Badura-Sloka


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Machiavel said:


> Paul badura-skoda.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh man, I didn't realize he died. But he lived a long life and we have his recordings.  It's a little like he's still around. Sigh...


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I like Uchida and (sometimes) Richter. Schiff, too, but I need to hear more of it. Brendel I am not much a fan of in Schubert, though I really like his Beethoven and Mozart. I'm still trying to navigate the piano sonatas of Franz Schubert. This was always the most challenging part of his oeuvre for me, I think due in part to the length of the sonatas. I made a thread looking for advice on a complete set, several months ago now, and I never got one. I think Paul Badura-Skoda on RCA and Uchida on Philips are the big contenders for me, but seeing vtpoet's comment in this thread about Kempff and his "Romantic" approach to the music intrigues me. I think that's something I might like. I love Kempff in other repertoire, Beethoven and Brahms. He has a way of making the music sound monumental, even in light of his sometimes understated interpretations.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> He has a way of making the music sound monumental, even in light of his sometimes understated interpretations.


He makes a stark contrast to Volodos.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I really like Kempff's playing in Schubert. He has a way of making it sound very clear and "icy"- almost emotionally stark, so to say, but his distaste for inflections tends, in mind, to magnify the pathos. I like his style much better than Brendel's somewhat similar "no-nonsense" approach, which I often find too blunt and bland- I love Brendel in Beethoven, but I don't feel he has as much of a knack for the Schubertian idiom. Kempff is unfussy but also very nuanced, and he colors the phrases subtly but convincingly. I've only heard one sonata from Volodos- the 18th. I remember it being very transluscent and tender, almost precious. This is probably inaccurate, though; I should give him another shot. Richter's Schubert is often considered canonical, and sometimes the sheer originality of his playing works wonders. But sometimes I find his attempts to inject the music with profundity to be overdone- the 25-minute first movement of the 21s is just boring for me rather than profound. Definitely a must-listen for all Schubertians though. His C minor is probably my favorite of the ones he did.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I really like Kempff's playing in Schubert. He has a way of making it sound very clear and "icy"- almost emotionally stark, so to say, but his distaste for inflections tends, in mind, to magnify the pathos. I like his style much better than Brendel's somewhat similar "no-nonsense" approach, which I often find too blunt and bland- I love Brendel in Beethoven, but I don't feel he has as much of a knack for the Schubertian idiom. Kempff is unfussy but also very nuanced, and he colors the phrases subtly but convincingly. I've only heard one sonata from Volodos- the 18th. I remember it being very transluscent and tender, almost precious. This is probably inaccurate, though; I should give him another shot. Richter's Schubert is often considered canonical, and sometimes the sheer originality of his playing works wonders. But sometimes I find his attempts to inject the music with profundity to be overdone- the 25-minute first movement of the 21s is just boring for me rather than profound. Definitely a must-listen for all Schubertians though. His C minor is probably my favorite of the ones he did.


I got the Richter CD on Alto w/ D958 and D960. I haven't quite cracked the C minor sonata yet. I'm not a huge fan of Richter's D960, as much as I love his pianism, but he plays the slow movement just about perfectly.

Another Schubertian pianist I forgot to mention, one that I really love: Artur Schnabel.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

What about D 664 and D 784? I have always loved those two works.


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

D.960 played by Alfred Brendel or Artur Schnabel


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I really like Kempff's playing in Schubert. He has a way of making it sound very clear and "icy"- almost emotionally stark, so to say, but his distaste for inflections tends, in mind, to magnify the pathos. I like his style much better than Brendel's somewhat similar "no-nonsense" approach, which I often find too blunt and bland- I love Brendel in Beethoven, but I don't feel he has as much of a knack for the Schubertian idiom. Kempff is unfussy but also very nuanced, and he colors the phrases subtly but convincingly. I've only heard one sonata from Volodos- the 18th. I remember it being very transluscent and tender, almost precious. This is probably inaccurate, though; I should give him another shot. Richter's Schubert is often considered canonical, and sometimes the sheer originality of his playing works wonders. But sometimes I find his attempts to inject the music with profundity to be overdone- the 25-minute first movement of the 21s is just boring for me rather than profound. Definitely a must-listen for all Schubertians though. His C minor is probably my favorite of the ones he did.


I don't agree , Brendel is very adept at playing Schubert imo and I would point out Artur Schnabel too! I prefer Kempff playing Beethoven


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Schnabel had a big effect on the reception history of the sonatas. Basically he played the music in a very sweet and lyrical way, many followed, supporting their approach with the idea that, at heart, Schubert is a sweet song writer. 

One of Schnabel’s peers was Édouard Erdmann. He had a more tense approach to Schubert’s music, more edgy. Erdmann was less influential, maybe because Schnabel lucked out when he signed a contract with EMI. 

I think some of Erdmann’s recordings of Schubert are at least as valuable as Schnabel’s.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Schnabel had a big effect on the reception history of the sonatas. Basically he played the music in a very sweet and lyrical way, many followed, supporting their approach with the idea that, at heart, Schubert is a sweet song writer.
> 
> One of Schnabel's peers was Édouard Erdmann. He had a more tense approach to Schubert's music, more edgy. Erdmann was less influential, maybe because Schnabel lucked out when he signed a contract with EMI.
> 
> I think some of Erdmann's recordings of Schubert are at least as valuable as Schnabel's.


I always find Schnabel incredibly fascinating to listen to, but he has yet to connect with me on a personal level. To me, his playing sounds nervous and rushed. The music doesn't seem like it has room to breathe. Then again, I tend to feel the same about the pianism of Edwin Fischer and Artur Rubinstein. But I agree that Schnabel's silky legato technique essentially pioneered a distinct school of "flowing, unforced" pianism that seems to either connect with you or it doesn't. Slow movements were really his forte, IMO. I lean towards Russian school pianists like Richter and Gilels who have a wide palette of interpretive imagination that allows them to paint everything distinctly. For a clear example of Schnabel's style, listen to him play Schubert's G Flat Impromptu. I can't imagine anyone nowadays playing it like that. That's definitely not a complaint, but rather an observation on the decline of acceptance of such idiosyncratic performance practice since the '30's.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> Basically [Schnabel] played the music in a very sweet and lyrical way, many followed, supporting their approach with the idea that, at heart, Schubert is a sweet song writer...


That's my problem with Kempff. It's the very opposite of that approach. To me, Kempff turns Schubert into more of a Mahler or a Buckner.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> There are just too many, but one I've been really liking recently is Aki Takahashi, here...


Finally listened to this from beginning to end. Really quite good. I lose myself in her(?) dreamy second movement.


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

But what do you guys think more specifically of D 845 and D 850 since they are performed less often than the last 4 sonatas?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Beebert said:


> But what do you guys think more specifically of D 845 and D 850 since they are performed less often than the last 4 sonatas?


I have a great soft spot for the second movement of 850. I used to play Richter's Prague recording of that movement over and over again! For years I thought there was only one performance which made sense of the whole sonata - not Richter but Lilya Zilberstein. But recently I found myself really enjoying Trudelies Leonhardt.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Last three sonatas: Gabriel Chodos.
Other favorites ( don't know the Deutsche numbers): G major (Ashkenazy); D major (Nasyedkin)


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## LudwigvanBeetroot (Jan 10, 2020)

No love for Radu Lupu? He's my go to guy for Schubert


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

So... Now When I can't go to school or anything I decided to use the time in quarantine to learn a Schubert sonata along with Schumann's Davidsbündlertänze(huge projects, I know)... The question is which one of them? I can't decide between D 959 and D 960... Which of these two would you do?


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## The3Bs (Apr 1, 2020)

*Greatest Schubert sonatas?*

This is a hard question!!!

My consultant head would respond quickly with a:
It depends.
On What?
There are so many variables... your emotional status, your disposition and so on...

So what works for me?

In a celestial mood I look to the last 3 sonatas and mostly to the D960.
In a romantic mood to the D959 and always regret that the great Richter never recorded it. I am so happy that Volodos just came out with a recording that surpasses my old favorites of Lupu and Kempf.

However, when on a more terrestrial mood ... i also look to many of the lesser number sonatas where one can encounter many pearls...like the D575 or the D664 amongst others


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## The3Bs (Apr 1, 2020)

Beebert said:


> So... Now When I can't go to school or anything I decided to use the time in quarantine to learn a Schubert sonata along with Schumann's Davidsbündlertänze(huge projects, I know)... The question is which one of them? I can't decide between D 959 and D 960... Which of these two would you do?


Hard question....

D960 is harder because of its complexity
D959 is hard because of its apparent simplicity (of the last 3 sonatas is the least liked because it poses the least technical challenges, but, because of that it is the hardest to make a statement with)


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

Or maybe I should just do the Moments Musicaux otherwise hehe? They also attract me very much...


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Beebert said:


> So... Now When I can't go to school or anything I decided to use the time in quarantine to learn a Schubert sonata along with Schumann's Davidsbündlertänze(huge projects, I know)... The question is which one of them? I can't decide between D 959 and D 960... Which of these two would you do?


Work on both.

You have the time . . .


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

My list of Schubert heroes:

Richter
Brendel
Zimerman -_ I don't see him mentioned here. He recently (2017) recorded 959 & 960. I also heard him play them live on tour, before he recorded them. Extremely focused, like a meditation. I think many pianists would do the tour after recording them, to boost CD sales, but not Zimerman the perfectionist. _
Lupu

Schubert's (late) piano sonatas are something very special, but I think we all agree on that here. I do not have a real favorite.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

There's only one Schubert sonata that satisfies me enough to return to for frequent listening---No. 13 in A major, D. 664. Favorite choices are 1) Geza Anda and 2) Vladimir Ashkenazy


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## EmperorOfIceCream (Jan 3, 2020)

I like a lot of Schubert's piano sonatas. I think Brendel's Schubert: 1822-1828 album is the best Schubert piano recording. No. 17 is fantastic. It reminds me slightly of Waldstein in the first movement, but it is more frenetic and unstable. Other pianists just play staccato chord motif with an awful banging sound, but Brendel plays it with a very subtle crescendo and great tone.


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

The3Bs said:


> Hard question....
> 
> D960 is harder because of its complexity
> D959 is hard because of its apparent simplicity (of the last 3 sonatas is the least liked because it poses the least technical challenges, but, because of that it is the hardest to make a statement with)


D 959 the LEAST liked of the last three? I have always believed it to be far more popular than D 958? Is it easier technically than D 960? I wouldn't say so really. It's texture is less varied, but there are some really challenging stuff in there, just like in almost all Schubert.


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## The3Bs (Apr 1, 2020)

Beebert said:


> D 959 the LEAST liked of the last three? I have always believed it to be far more popular than D 958? Is it easier technically than D 960? I wouldn't say so really. It's texture is less varied, but there are some really challenging stuff in there, just like in almost all Schubert.


Well... you might be right.. I am not a music expert not a piano player... just a music lover... 
My comments were solely based on what I read here and there and also by observing that some of the greats preferences not only when setting it to record or programming live concerts.... 
Again my analysis will be subjective and might not be accurate...

I like all of them equally....


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Do we know if Schubert was himself a great pianist?

His final one is the one affects me most. I suppose that reaction is largely informed by knowing what was coming...


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Kieran said:


> Do we know if Schubert was himself a great pianist?
> 
> His final one is the one affects me most. I suppose that reaction is largely informed by knowing what was coming...


I don't think he was as adept as Beethoven and several other of his contemporaries - he was famously unable to play his own Wanderer Fantasy. His sonatas are certainly not virtuosic (except for some moments like the finale of No. 19), but it still takes a very special pianist who is sensitive and nuanced enough to convincingly convey the angelic songfulness of the music while correctly balancing it with the depths of melancholy and doubt. Uchida does this better than anyone I know (though I'm tempted to say Schnabel with his creamy touch was the greatest Schubertian pianist).


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I don't think he was as adept as Beethoven and several other of his contemporaries - *he was famously unable to play his own Wanderer Fantasy*. His sonatas are certainly not virtuosic (except for some moments like the finale of No. 19), but it still takes a very special pianist who is sensitive and nuanced enough to convincingly convey the angelic songfulness of the music while correctly balancing it with the depths of melancholy and doubt. Uchida does this better than anyone I know (though I'm tempted to say Schnabel with his creamy touch was the greatest Schubertian pianist).


Although these great composers generally can compose without having to be able perform the instrument they're writing for, this tidbit makes me admire him even more...


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