# Overplayed but not overrated



## Glaliraha (May 2, 2010)

There are those pieces of classical music that every person in the world knows, but which are only so because they are overplayed in the media, in films and advertisements, and in concerts for classical newbies.

These pieces aren't necessarily ones that have been deemed overrated, but they are definitely overplayed.

I want to remind everyone that...

Vivaldi's *Spring Concerto*
Pachelbel's *Canon in D*
Mozart's *Eine Kleine Nachtmusik*
Paganini's *Caprice No. 24*
Liszt's *Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2*
Bach's *Cello Suite No. 1, Prelude*
Beethoven's *Symphony No. 5*
Chopin's *Nocturne No. 2*
Ravel's *Bolero*
AND
Dukas's *The Sorcerer's Apprentice*

are and always will be brilliant.


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

pachalebels canon, eine kleine nachtmusik and valse triste are not brilliant


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## Glaliraha (May 2, 2010)

I didn't mention *Valse Triste*.


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

Vivaldi's Season Concertos have an interesting idea behind them and memorable tunes, but they are still your typical Vivaldi. If you've heard one of his violin concertos you've heard them all.

Pachelbel's Canon in D, I think was a stroke of genius. No, make that a pat on the head! Yes it's nice to listen to, but for me it's too similar throughout.

Eine Kleine Nachtmusik is, for me, simply the best example of a Mozart serenade. Saying that, the other serenades make for interesting listening.

Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2... well it's not really Hungarian. Bartók should be a starting point for Hungarian classical music. Saying that, Bartók sounds to "modern" to be widely accepted by the masses.

Bach's Cello Suite No. 1, Prelude... yes, nice. No complaints. I once listened to all six in an afternoon by Yo-Yo Ma. I don't feel the need to do this again!

Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 is a piece I can never tire of. I'm glad it's played so often. I think all Beethoven symphonies should be played as often as this one.

Chopin's Nocturne No. 2 I like because I play - 




I weep for Ravel's Bolero. It's one of the best essays in orchestration and every instrument gets some limelight, yet it's now always associated with two British ice-skaters. A sad fate for a wonderful piece.

Dukas's The Sorcerer's Apprentice will similarly be always associated with Mickey Mouse. I'm sure some people out there will firmly believe Walt Disney composed this piece!


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

What does it mean - "overplayed but not overrated"? Reason which makes all those pieces overplayed is very low rating among people. If one would rate Beethoven's 5th very high, then he wouldn't put it into commercials and stuff. 

Which means that all overplayed pieces are underrated, not overrated.

Bronson ->


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Dvorak's 9th Symphony is a wonderful piece, full of marvel upon marvel, easily accessible and therefor a great introduction to the symphony as a form. 

And I don't need to hear it again until forever, and maybe not even then.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I'm guessing Tchaikovsky's Romeo & Juliet and 1812 Overtures would qualify as overplayed, but not _underrated_.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

In the same spirit, some of the gems that introduced me to classical music and I will love them every time I hear them:

Mendelssohn - Violin concerto
Schubert - Unfinished symphony
Rimsky Korsakov - Sheherazade
Mussorgsky/Ravel - Pictures at an exhibition
Grieg - Peer Gynt suites


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Weston said:


> Dvorak's 9th Symphony is a wonderful piece, full of marvel upon marvel, easily accessible and therefor a great introduction to the symphony as a form.
> 
> And I don't need to hear it again until forever, and maybe not even then.


I like how Dvorak based the largo on a Negro spiritual yet it has been appropriated by the media over here to represent a nostalgic ideal of old-fashioned working class Yorkshire. I'll admit, I was one of those people who thought it was the Hovis theme tune at one time.


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## janne (Apr 13, 2010)

Edward Elgar said:


> Vivaldi's Season Concertos have an interesting idea behind them and memorable tunes, but they are still your typical Vivaldi. If you've heard one of his violin concertos you've heard them all.


No, you haven't. A lot of people seem to have a problem with baroque instrumental music so I'm not surprised by such an ignorant commentary though.



Edward Elgar said:


> Pachelbel's Canon in D, I think was a stroke of genius. No, make that a pat on the head! Yes it's nice to listen to, but for me it's too similar throughout.!


It's a passacaglia. And a passacaglia is supposed to sound that way. The baseline just keeps repeating. If not, then it's not a passacaglia so that kind of criticism is unfair.



Edward Elgar said:


> Eine Kleine Nachtmusik is, for me, simply the best example of a Mozart serenade. Saying that, the other serenades make for interesting listening.


Then, what makes the other ones more interesting ?



Edward Elgar said:


> Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2... well it's not really Hungarian. Bartók should be a starting point for Hungarian classical music. Saying that, Bartók sounds to "modern" to be widely accepted by the masses.


I agree on all three claims.



Edward Elgar said:


> Bach's Cello Suite No. 1, Prelude... yes, nice. No complaints. I once listened to all six in an afternoon by Yo-Yo Ma. I don't feel the need to do this again!


Baroque music just isn't your thing, right ?



Edward Elgar said:


> Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 is a piece I can never tire of. I'm glad it's played so often. I think all Beethoven symphonies should be played as often as this one.


Most often, when used in popular culture, we hear only the first few notes (thankfully). This is a masterpiece but the first theme has been overplayed and violated.


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## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

Of these mentioned pieces, I'd like to say that I really like Vivaldi's Four Seasons, and not only Spring, but all 4 concertos. I think that all 4 concertos are very good and they are overplayed for very good reason. Of the 4, summer is may favorite.

When you look at them as one work, one complete cycle, I'd dare to say that Four Seasons are a masterpiece, indeed.


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## Whistlerguy (May 26, 2010)

Beethoven's Fifth symphony isn't my favorite, but this is very good symphony. I prefer 9th (and now even 3rd), but Fifth is great as well. Also, I think 5th is the most interesting of all Beethoven symphonies, because all the movements have very recognizable and powerful music, especially 1st and 4th.


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

janne said:


> No, you haven't. A lot of people seem to have a problem with baroque instrumental music so I'm not surprised by such an ignorant commentary though.


Could you back up your claim with a bit of argument? I don't have a problem with baroque instrumental music, I just get bored hearing the same ritornello passages over and over again. I find Vivaldi's music painfully formulaic.



janne said:


> It's a passacaglia. And a passacaglia is supposed to sound that way. The baseline just keeps repeating. If not, then it's not a passacaglia so that kind of criticism is unfair.


It's not a passacaglia because it's not in triple time. Just watch who you callin' ignorant mm mm! 

The proper description of the cello part is a ground bass.



janne said:


> Then, what makes the other ones more interesting?


They aren't necessarily more interesting, it's just that Eine Kleine has more memorable melodies.



janne said:


> Baroque music just isn't your thing, right?


In my opinion, Bach was the only good composer of the Baroque era. Saying that, Handel wrote some important works.



janne said:


> Most often, when used in popular culture, we hear only the first few notes (thankfully). This is a masterpiece but the first theme has been overplayed and violated.


Have you seen the Simpsons episode when an orchestra play the first eight notes and the audience walk out describing the rest of the symphony as "filler". What social commentary!


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## classidaho (May 5, 2009)

To me, Pachelbel's Canon in D is a materpiece in simplicity. I have never heard it without stopping (If I could) to dwell in it's simple, soul stirring beauty.

The great part; every arrangement can be very different and still capture the beautifyl canon.


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## classidaho (May 5, 2009)

To me, Pachelbel's Canon in D is a materpiece in simplicity. I have never heard it without stopping (If I could) to dwell in it's simple, soul stirring beauty.

The great part; every arrangement can be very different and still capture the beautiful canon.


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## janne (Apr 13, 2010)

Edward Elgar said:


> Could you back up your claim with a bit of argument? I don't have a problem with baroque instrumental music, I just get bored hearing the same ritornello passages over and over again. I find Vivaldi's music painfully formulaic. !


Vivaldi stayed true to form to the forms expected. The ritornello passages are bleneded with orchestral episodes in the way it was supposed to be. You can't seriously hold that against him ? A ritornello is by definition something that keeps coming back.[/QUOTE]



Edward Elgar said:


> It's not a passacaglia because it's not in triple time. Just watch who you callin' ignorant mm mm!
> The proper description of the cello part is a ground bass.


It is constructed as a passacaglia, and a passacaglia uses a ground bass. Do a bit of research and you will find that scholars most often defines the piece as a passacaglia and sometimes as a chaconne.
You can't seriously say that it is a bad and repetitive piece because it uses a ground bass. That's the god damn point of the entire composition. Should we start calling all compositions of this form bad, just because they are written in this form ?? It is the same ignorant argument as in the Vivaldi case.



Edward Elgar said:


> Have you seen the Simpsons episode when an orchestra play the first eight notes and the audience walk out describing the rest of the symphony as "filler". What social commentary!


No. I don't watch cartoons.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I think most of the original list is overrated, except for the Bach... but still that belongs to a greater whole, so I'm kinda on the fence about it.

I dunno how many pieces are overplayed and not overrated in that sense. I've heard the second movement of the Ravel quartet on some commercials, and that piece as a whole is amazing, but again I don't care much for that movement individually. The thing about pieces like that is that they appeal to modern popular sensibilities; nobody cares about how good the piece is as long as it sounds cool and is well-known, which basically hinges on sounding cool and being famous. Quality is incidental.


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## TWhite (Feb 23, 2010)

To clear up a point: 
The Pachelbel Canon ("Kanon" from the Greek word for "rule") is neither a Chaconne nor a Passacalgia, but a true three-part Canon built on a repeating eight-note Ground Bass in duple meter. The 'Canon' per se is stated within the upper three voices, the harmony is sustained and 'ruled' by the eight notes (viol, cello, harpsichord, whatever happens to be used during the performance) that control the harmonic progression. For an example of a Canon that is NOT strictly controlled by a 'ruling' harmonic bass, I suggest the finale of the Franck Violin Sonata, which is one of the more 'expansive' Canons in the literature. Generally, the Canon is NOT ruled by a harmonic progression, but a melodic one. In that aspect, the Pachelbel work is a much more complex work than the usual Canon, but the insistent Ground Bass does NOT make it either a Passacaglia or a Chaconne. 

A Passacaglia is an ancient Spanish dance-form built in variation style on either an eight or sixteen measure Ground Bass MELODY that is always performed in triple meter. Originally the dance was quite lively--during the Baroque Era, it became much more stately--a courtly Processional dance. Best Baroque example I can think of--the Bach Passacaglia and Fugue in c minor for organ--an absolutely stunning example of Late Baroque Passacaglia writing, IMO. 

A Chaconne is similar to a Passacaglia, however it is built on a CHORDAL progression, instead of a single-line. It is also always in triple-meter and composed as a series of variations inexorably tied to the harmonic progressions set forth in the original statement. Best--and most surprising--example of a large-scale Chaconne, IMO--the fourth movement of Brahms' Fourth Symphony.

Hope this helps clarify some things.

Tom


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## janne (Apr 13, 2010)

TWhite said:


> To clear up a point:
> The Pachelbel Canon ("Kanon" from the Greek word for "rule") is neither a Chaconne nor a Passacalgia, but a true three-part Canon built on a repeating eight-note Ground Bass in duple meter.
> 
> Hope this helps clarify some things.
> ...


No. You left out half of the story...

*Originally a slow Italian or Spanish dance in 3/4 time, the passacaglia later came to be an instrumental work in 3/4 based on a ground (that is, a melody which repeats unchangingly throughout while other lines are freely varied). The passacaglia is very closely related to the chaconne, except that in the chaconne, the repeating melody is always in the bass (that is, it is a ground bass).

Today, the term passacaglia is often used to denote a piece (not even necessarily in 3/4 time) which has a fixed bass line (ground bass) or chord progression (sometimes both) that is repeated consecutively throughout most or all of the piece. In this sense, it is little different from the (often alternative) name chaconne. The ground bass or chord progression usually lasts 8 or 16 bars, and forms a complete musical sentence.

*

You were right about the first part. Now, did you leave the second part out on purpose or were you unaware that the term Passacaglia is actually a correct definition of the Pachelbel Canon just as well as your definition ?


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

janne said:


> Vivaldi stayed true to form to the forms expected. The ritornello passages are bleneded with orchestral episodes in the way it was supposed to be. You can't seriously hold that against him ? A ritornello is by definition something that keeps coming back.


When the same theme keeps repeating it bores me.



janne said:


> It is constructed as a passacaglia, and a passacaglia uses a ground bass. Do a bit of research and you will find that scholars most often defines the piece as a passacaglia and sometimes as a chaconne.
> You can't seriously say that it is a bad and repetitive piece because it uses a ground bass. That's the god damn point of the entire composition. Should we start calling all compositions of this form bad, just because they are written in this form ?? It is the same ignorant argument as in the Vivaldi case.


I think the whole "god damn point" of the composition is a Canon. The title sort of gives it away! 

As a Canon, the piece is a success. It's just a shame about the bass. I feel the pain of cellists.



janne said:


> No. I don't watch cartoons.


Maybe they would help you lighten up!


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## janne (Apr 13, 2010)

Edward Elgar said:


> When the same theme keeps repeating it bores me.


That explains your difficulties with baroque music. I guess all musical forms that relies on the ritornello principles of departure and return bores you ?
If you listen more closely to Vivaldi the next time you will find that he is doing a lot more with his themes a lot more than you are willing to admit. Same thing goes for Händel, Telemann and the other baroque composers.



Edward Elgar said:


> I think the whole "god damn point" of the composition is a Canon. The title sort of gives it away!
> As a Canon, the piece is a success. It's just a shame about the bass. I feel the pain of cellists.


It's a passacaglia... and you just think it's boring. Well, too bad for you.



Edward Elgar said:


> Maybe they would help you lighten up!


No, cartoons make you dumber.


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

janne said:


> It's a passacaglia... and you just think it's boring. Well, too bad for you.


Yes, and black is white, watch out on the next zebra crossing!



janne said:


> No, cartoons make you dumber.


I'd rather be a dumb-*** than have my head up it!


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## Boccherini (Mar 29, 2010)

Edward Elgar said:


> I'd rather be a dumb-*** than have my head up it!


Wow, you've just verfied a few speculations I've had on you.


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## TWhite (Feb 23, 2010)

janne said:


> No. You left out half of the story...
> 
> *Originally a slow Italian or Spanish dance in 3/4 time, the passacaglia later came to be an instrumental work in 3/4 based on a ground (that is, a melody which repeats unchangingly throughout while other lines are freely varied). The passacaglia is very closely related to the chaconne, except that in the chaconne, the repeating melody is always in the bass (that is, it is a ground bass).
> 
> ...


Hm: In reading my original post and your answer to it, it seems that I didn't leave out half of the story, but you only read half of my original post. If you check yourself, you see that we agree on both the particular forms of Passacaglia and Chaconne--except that the Passacaglia was originally a much more lively dance form.

Or perhaps I wasn't quite clear about the differences? Could be. I'm a musician, not a writer.

Tom


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## janne (Apr 13, 2010)

TWhite said:


> Hm: In reading my original post and your answer to it, it seems that I didn't leave out half of the story, but you only read half of my original post. If you check yourself, you see that we agree on both the particular forms of Passacaglia and Chaconne--except that the Passacaglia was originally a much more lively dance form.
> 
> Or perhaps I wasn't quite clear about the differences? Could be. I'm a musician, not a writer.
> 
> Tom


You wrote:



> the insistent Ground Bass does NOT make it either a Passacaglia or a Chaconne


The term passacaglia nowdays is by scholars in such a way as to cover musical pieces that DO have a constantly repeated ground bass. That is part of the definition. The reference to meter is not necessary anymore. I think one can say that the meaning of the word has changed. In older times it had a narrower content.

Anyway, this discussion is a bit off-topic. My initial point was to argue against the kind of criticism that says "repeating ground bass music is boring because it uses repeating ground bass".


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