# Fats Domino vs. Fats Waller



## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

I don't know about you, but I love jazz. Nothing beats classical, of course, but I've had many a delightful listening experience with the great jazz artists of the 20th century. 
So, with all the argifyin' going on over whether Tchaikovsky or Bruckner or Schubert or Brahms or Prokofiev or Scriabin or whoever is the superior, let's have some fun. 
Here's two of the greatest and most influential jazz artists of all time. It's the Battle of the Fats- who do you like? Domino or Waller?


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

onestly it's the first time I see Fats Domino mentioned as a jazz musician.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

norman bates said:


> onestly it's the first time I see Fats Domino mentioned as a jazz musician.


Me too, but I only know Domino from 'Blueberry Hill' and his ruining of that nice old song is certainly worthy of any jazz singer! Here's my favourite version (actually I only know one other): a comparatively 'straight' performance by Glenn Miller and Ray Eberle:






So I think Mrs Waller's 'harmful little armful' is rather harm_less_ compared to Mr Domino. As with many jazz instrumentalists who also sang (Armstrong etc) he always seemed to me to be basically a very good instrumentalist whose 'singing' when it occurred reduced him to a kind of humorous novelty act. Waller of course did this humorous schtick better than most, but I really think of him as a pianist.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Both legends, but Fats Waller is the king of early jazz piano and organ. Domino is a New Orleans r&b/early rock n roller. And I love Fats Waller's singing. He was no novelty act. And of course he was from a distant era when jazz musicians entertained people. Long before the navel gazing jazzers of the 60s. If you're gonna talk about jazzers nicknamed "Fats", Navarro should enter the conversation.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

starthrower said:


> Both legends, but Fats Waller is the king of early jazz piano and organ. Domino is a New Orleans r&b/early rock n roller. And I love Fats Waller's singing. He was no novelty act. And of course he was from a distant era when jazz musicians entertained people. Long before the navel gazing jazzers of the 60s. If you're gonna talk about jazzers nicknamed "Fats", Navarro should enter the conversation.


'Your feet's too big' is serious music, then?  And, though I mildly like Fats Waller, I don't think his is one of the great voices.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Who said it was all serious? The guy had a sense of humor. And nobody ever claimed him to be one of the great vocalists on a technical level. And Armstrong may not Paul Robeson, but he pretty much invented a style of singing that was a revolution in the jazz world.

And there's plenty of music that may have a humorous sentiment, but is also great music. I don't know why humor in music is automatically equated with novelty?


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

starthrower said:


> Who said it was all serious? The guy had a sense of humor. *And nobody ever claimed him to be one of the great vocalists on a technical level. *


OK, I think I see what you mean now.



starthrower said:


> And Armstrong may not Paul Robeson, but he pretty much invented a style of singing that was a revolution in the jazz world.


Louis Armstrong's singing sucked SO MUCH though. Truly horrible timbre, and that whole 'scat' thing is devoid of emotion and makes all songs sound the same- which is basically jazz singing in a nutshell. No thanks. Though he did supposedly influence Bing Crosby, one of the true greats of non-classical singing.



starthrower said:


> And there's plenty of music that may have a humorous sentiment, but is also great music. I don't know why humor in music is automatically equated with novelty?


That might be true in principle (though I prefer tragedy myself) but with regard to Fats Waller, if you can't understand why a man with a non-great voice singing a comic song might not be considered an example of great music, I can't help you!


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Figleaf said:


> Louis Armstrong's singing sucked SO MUCH though. Truly horrible timbre, and that whole 'scat' thing is devoid of emotion and makes all songs sound the same- which is basically jazz singing in a nutshell. No thanks. Though he did supposedly influence Bing Crosby, one of the true greats of non-classical singing.


You're the only person I've ever encountered that says Armstrong's singing sucks. And devoid of emotion? Really? Why did he move so many listeners around the world? It's the humanity and uniqueness of that voice. And all jazz singing is not the same.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

It seems that today on this forum is the "say some uninformed weird things about jazz" day.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Figleaf said:


> That might be true in principle (though I prefer tragedy myself) but with regard to Fats Waller, if you can't understand why a man with a non-great voice singing a comic song might not be considered an example of great music, I can't help you!


I'm not going to get into the "greatness" debate. It's a stinking dead horse that continues to be flogged at this forum.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

starthrower said:


> You're the only person I've ever encountered that says Armstrong's singing sucks. And devoid of emotion? Really? Why did he move so many listeners around the world? It's the humanity and uniqueness of that voice. And all jazz singing is not the same.


Why did he move so many listeners with that awful phlegmy voice and grinning retard act... no idea, I'm truly stumped. That 'Wonderful World' song certainly moves me- as far away from whatever device is playing it as I can possibly get! Jazz singing is a) microphone singing, which is not real singing and b) seems to be solely concerned with messing around with rhythm and distorting the melody at the expense of emotional expressiveness- expressiveness being a thing which jazz in general doesn't really do.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

starthrower said:


> I'm not going to get into the "greatness" debate. It's a stinking dead horse that continues to be flogged at this forum.


OK, sorry. I don't usually think in those terms myself, except when it comes to opera singers.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

OK, you don't like jazz. I get it.


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I'm with Starthrower. Armstrong was a great vocalist. Not a "pretty" voice, but he uses it effectively as an instrument. Lots of feeling to it as well.



Figleaf said:


> Why did he move so many listeners with that awful phlegmy voice and grinning retard act...


Classless comment on your part, Figleaf.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

GreenMamba said:


> Classless comment on your part, Figleaf.


Snobbish and extremely condescending at best.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

starthrower said:


> OK, you don't like jazz. I get it.


Only the singing, which I find soulless. Instrumental jazz is fine as background music- and if I were more sensitive to instrumental music, I'm sure I'd appreciate it as foreground music as well!


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

starthrower said:


> Snobbish and extremely condescending at best.


I think it's a serious point. He played up to racist stereotypes of black Americans, in a way that cannot have been helpful. Have you seen him in 'Pennies from Heaven'?


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Figleaf said:


> expressiveness being a thing which jazz in general doesn't really do.


wow. I'm speechless.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

If you were a jazz fan I'd recommend Brubeck's The Real Ambassadors. It was a beautiful musical platform for Armstrong to address racial injustice with none of the indignation and hostility evident in some of the music that would be made a little later in the decade of the 60s.

And I don't necesarily think that being good natured, and smiling is nothing but a display of Uncle Tom-ish behavior. Armstrong should have been appreciated for his instrumental abilities alone, but let's be realistic, the audiences for the most part overlook this aspect, and want to be entertained. Someone like Paul Robeson was much more vocal and active concerning racial injustice, and it cost him a great deal. America might be the land of the free, but if you open your mouth and speak the truth, things can get ugly. We have a long way to go.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

starthrower said:


> If you were a jazz fan I'd recommend Brubeck's The Real Ambassadors. It was a beautiful musical platform for Armstrong to address racial injustice with none of the indignation and hostility evident in some of the music that would be made a little later in the decade of the 60s.
> 
> And I don't necesarily think that being good natured, and smiling is nothing but a display of Uncle Tom-ish behavior. Armstrong should have been appreciated for his instrumental abilities alone, but let's be realistic, the audiences for the most part overlook this aspect, and want to be entertained. Someone like Paul Robeson was much more vocal and active concerning racial injustice, and it cost him a great deal. America might be the land of the free, but if you open your mouth and speak the truth, things can get ugly. We have a long way to go.


True. Robeson was a great hero. And thanks for the recommendation: 'The Real Ambassadors' looks interesting (even with music that isn't really my bag) and I see there are bits of it on Youtube. I may give it a go later when Guercoeur is finished!


----------



## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Figleaf, you are so funny. 

Strangely I found myself enjoying the Glen Miller link.

I mostly agree with you about Louis Armstrong, although as he was from an earlier generation he was less able to be successful without being a sycophant. I understand that at that time, between the wars, it was necessary for a black man to be 'adopted' and protected by a white man in order to have a mainstream career. It was much easier for Miles Davis to get away with a bad attitude in the sixties and beyond.

Before he went super-retard, Armstrong was great playing cornet with King Oliver's band. My favourite from this period is with Bessie Smith doing St Louis Blues.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Wood said:


> Figleaf, you are so funny.
> 
> Strangely I found myself enjoying the Glen Miller link.
> 
> ...


What an amazing record. I love that early jazz. And what a voice!


----------

