# Should the 5' pause be observed in Mahler's 2nd Symphony?



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

First time I heard about it yesterday, that Mahler called for a pause of at least 5 minutes between 1st and 2nd movements.

Maybe he was sneaking in a performance of Cage's 4'33"? :lol:


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

I can often be persuaded either way in cases like this. If a conductor wishes to obey the pauses as notated by the composer, then so be it. I remember hearing Messiaen's _Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum_ under Susanna Mälkki and the Helsinki Philharmonic, with the pauses between the movements observed, and the effect was harrowing...


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## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

How do they "perform" such a long pause? What do they do? Just stand there and attempt to hold your attention?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

BillT said:


> How do they "perform" such a long pause? What do they do? Just stand there and attempt to hold your attention?


I saw it done once with Ozawa and the BSO. There was a chair next to the conductor's podium, and Ozawa sat, back to the audience, during the pause.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I believe it should be observed and held for at least a good hour.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

When I saw Mahler's 2nd performed live several years ago they took an intermission of about 10-15 minutes after the 1st movement. They did the same thing when I saw Mahler's 3rd...although I think they did it just because it was such a long performance.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

BillT said:


> How do they "perform" such a long pause? What do they do? Just stand there and attempt to hold your attention?


A good time to all go to the bar. I do that during boring drum solos at rock gigs, too.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Are people waiting respectfully in those five minutes, or is there a cough/wrapper fest like there usually is between movements of a long piece?

I would just fast-forward past the pause at home.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If anyone is not familiar with Mahler 2 in concert performance, a pause after the intensely dramatic 20-23 minute first movement is necessary to give the orchestra a chance to re-tune, for the audience to catch its breath and most importantly, creates a natural pause place for the two soloists and chorus to take the stage. It is NOT wasted time. It's simply common sense.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> I believe it should be observed and held for at least a good hour.


I have it on good authority that the fermata is spurious.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Good for a pee break, though I'd put it later in the symphony.


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## BlasterSarge (Jan 17, 2017)

Absolutely. For all we know, the 5 minute pause is as integral to the work as any theme or movement could be. If the composer notated it, it should be acknowledged.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

BlasterSarge said:


> Absolutely. For all we know, the 5 minute pause is as integral to the work as any theme or movement could be. If the composer notated it, it should be acknowledged.


Only then and not because someone who thinking is he's superior says it.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

I'd like to hear specifically what the people who are dogmatic about the Andante/Scherzo order in the Sixth would have to say about it, or the only-Adagio-in-the-Tenth folks. Strict adherence to the composer? Or any freedom involved?


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## rspader (May 14, 2014)

I attended the Seattle Symphony last Sunday for Mahler's Symphony No. 2. No five minute pause. No intermission between movements. I enjoyed it immensely.


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## Eramire156 (Sep 28, 2017)

There is at least one recording where the pause is observed San Francisco with Blomstedt conducting on Decca at least on its original release.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Eramire156 said:


> There is at least one recording where the pause is observed San Francisco with Blomstedt conducting on Decca at least on its original release.


This is a 1st post with very relevant information. Welcome to TC, Eramire156!


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Eramire156 said:


> There is at least one recording where the pause is observed San Francisco with Blomstedt conducting on Decca at least on its original release.


Of course, any recording that requires two discs ought to split the work after the first movement, and most of them do, to allow the listener to observe the five minute hiatus is they so desire - Rattle, Walter (at least in the original issues), Tennstedt, Tilson Thomas, Kaplan, Abbado, Bertini, and others that I don't know certainly do. Any label that issues a 2 CD set of this work otherwise is only demonstrating gross incompetence (Bernstein's recording for DG, and Ivan Fischer's).

Unfortunately, a lot of recordings of the Mahler 2 are crammed onto a single CD.


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## Eramire156 (Sep 28, 2017)

wkasimer said:


> Of course, any recording that requires two discs ought to split the work after the first movement, and most of them do, to allow the listener to observe the five minute hiatus is they so desire - Rattle, Walter (at least in the original issues), Tennstedt, Tilson Thomas, Kaplan, Abbado, Bertini, and others that I don't know certainly do. Any label that issues a 2 CD set of this work otherwise is only demonstrating gross incompetence (Bernstein's recording for DG, and Ivan Fischer's).
> 
> Unfortunately, a lot of recordings of the Mahler 2 are crammed onto a single CD.


Decca in its reissue of the second in the Blomstedt San Francisco box set reissued the symphony on a single CD eliminating the pause.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

This is akin to the other Mahler argument, is It acceptable For a child/boy to sing in the 4th Symphony?

My thoughts on both, It's the performance that matters.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I have no strong opinions on either the five-minute pause (if it's useful for the orchestra, fine, but do they really need five minutes to retune?) or the use of a treble in the finale of No.4 - I have Bernstein's later recording, and am not a fan, but it's nothing to do with the singer, I just find Bernstein's Mahler irritating.
The Scherzo/Andante order is another kettle of fish. I suppose the argument goes along the lines of the scherzo being too similar rhythmically to work just after the first movement, so should come third, Alma said so, blah blah blah. For me it's has ended up what I am used to. The Finale is so overwhelming, it needs the Andante leading into it; the Scherzo picking up where the first movement left off is a powerful piece of relentlessness, it's Scherzo then Andante for me.
It is after all, debatably Mahler's finest symphony!

"It's the performance that matters" - Not with this one, but with the Treble, or with the other other Mahler argument - using a male voice in the longer movements of Das Lied von der Erde - indeed it does!


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## gustavdimitri (Nov 7, 2017)

What I would like to see is the evidence where Mahler put this in the score...
If this exists, so be it, if no evidence is put forward? ... just let the orchestra re-tune and the go on with the show!
Hear say is no evidence...









Here is the 5 min. mentioned ... (click to open and it's on the bottom right)


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I has nothing to do with retuning ... other than the audience's mind. The best description that I have seen for it is...
_"The second movement should contrast with the first. In fact, Mahler was so concerned about this that he asks for a five minute pause. Here Mahler is trying to show an interlude in the life of the person deceased in the first movement. "_ - Tony Duggan


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