# Beethoven Year - the piano sonatas



## DavidA

I read an article in The Spectator which said that to get to know Beethoven you have to know his 32 piano sonatas because they 'are Beethoven's laboratory'. They 'join the dots' for his other works. So I've decided to listen to the 32 for the Beethoven year. I'm listening to Schnabel on Op 2no1 at the moment. What recordings do you find enlightening?


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## UniversalTuringMachine

Good idea, David. I have went through countless recordings of Beethoven sonatas and I play some of the intermediate ones (No.1, No.8, No.12, No.14) so let me give you my list with a suggestive personal rating:

1: worth mentioning
2: worth listening to at least once (and may well be your desert land cycle)
3: desert island worthy

*Historical:*
Schnabel (3/3)
Kempff (3/3)
Backhaus (2/3)

*Post War:*
Fischer (3/3)
Serkin (3/3)
Arrau (3/3)
Gilels (3/3)
Backhaus (2/3)
Goode (2/3)
Pollini (2/3)
Brendel (2/3)
Kovacevich (2/3)
Gulda (2/3)
Bautigam (2/3)
Kempff (1/3)
Barenboim (1/3)

*Recent:*
Igor Levit (3/3)
Jean-Efflam Bavouzet (3/3)
Paul Lewis (2/3)
Jonathan Biss (2/3)
Louis Lortie (1/3)
Boris Giltburg (1/3)
Andras Schiff (1/3)

Enjoy.


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## Luchesi

What do posters here think of Stewart Goodyear?


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## Allegro Con Brio

A couple months ago, I listened through the 32 with a different pianist for each. It was a very interesting and enlightening experience. In terms of performers I discovered there are a few different ways that pianists approach Beethoven. In one group are those who see Beethoven as intrisically raw, passionate, unhinged. These include Annie Fischer, Rudolf Serkin, Friedrich Gulda and probably Richter. They don't bother to "prettify" their tones and refine their phrasing, they deliver the music with a uniquely convincing conviction and poignancy. Fischer's cycle is in fact my favorite complete cycle, with my avatar's incomplete set being _hors conceurs_ in terms of Beethoven playing for me. Gilels belongs to the subset of pianists who sees the lyrical side to Beethoven a bit more, and only unleashes passion when the music really demands it. I would probably also place Arrau, Pires and Brendel in this category (in the "extremely lyrical" category I would put Louis Lortie, who doesn't provide enough drama for my taste). Then there are those who are more aristocratic and relaxed like Solomon, Gieseking, and of course the legendary Schnabel whose performances I do love for their remarkable spontaneity but don't see as the last word like some do. Then finally there are the "no-nonsense" guys like Wilhelm Kempff and Kovacevich, both of which I like for different reasons. There are lots of recordings out there and one need only explore for themselves in order to discover the riches. Getting into the Beethoven sonatas and comparing performances is definitely a great way to see how performers treat the same works so radically different, and to get a taste of different approaches to the instrument.


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## UniversalTuringMachine

Luchesi said:


> What do posters here think of Stewart Goodyear?


Simply amazing! I am impressed. Only a few dynamic markings were not observed (I am using Henle Urtext). I would prefer lighter touch for the 16th notes interlocked arpeggios and a bit less virtuosity in the Rondo. But all in all Goodyear is very good and I thoroughly enjoyed this performance.


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## staxomega

DavidA said:


> I read an article in The Spectator which said that to get to know Beethoven you have to know his 32 piano sonatas because they 'are Beethoven's laboratory'. They 'join the dots' for his other works. So I've decided to listen to the 32 for the Beethoven year. I'm listening to Schnabel on Op 2no1 at the moment. What recordings do you find enlightening?


It is hard to disagree with whoever wrote that article, for me the string quartets and piano sonatas are in the clear upper echelon of greatest music ever written. Of course the symphonies (and perhaps piano concerti) as well, but just speaking for myself it's the string quartets and piano sonatas that I listen to the most and find most rewarding.

The greatest cycle I've ever heard in terms of depth of interpretation belongs to Andrea Lucchesini.

With my other truly top tier cycles coming from Annie Fischer, Rudolf Serkin (incomplete, and some of his best performances not officially released, but still available from Sony), Claudio Arrau (incomplete EMI, complete 1960s Philips), Wilhelm Backhaus (mono, though his incomplete pre-war recordings and some live recordings show a more spontaneous pianist).

Other truly exceptional ones but not in the same league as the above- Russell Sherman, Eric Heidsieck, Maurizio Pollini, Emil Gilels (prefer his live recordings on Melodiya to the ones on DG), Bernard Roberts (quite under rated) and of course Schnabel.


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## Oldhoosierdude

I have a few of them . Jeno Jando is my favorite.

Interesting that IU Jacobs school of music had a summer plan of a different student pianist playing a few sonatas on different nights all summer. 

Then covid happened.


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## PeterF

My favorite version of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas is the complete set by Buchbinder.
I also consider the incomplete set by Rudolf Serkin to be outstanding.

Two other complete sets That are just slightly behind the two above are by - Kempff and Lucchesini.


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## wkasimer

PeterF said:


> My favorite version of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas is the complete set by Buchbinder.


Which one, Teldec or BMG? I prefer the latter, also one of my favorites.



> Two other complete sets That are just slightly behind the two above are by - Kempff and Lucchesini.


Agree on the latter.


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## DavidA

I find Annie Fischer to be one of the greatest Beethoven pianists. A complete set is on Hungaraton but is not so gratefully recorded as those she made for EMI. Orchestral players dubbed her 'Ashtray Annie' for her incessant smoking!


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## Cortot

Some notable Beethoven pianists not mentioned: Maria Grinberg, Elly Ney, Edwin Fischer, Yves Nat, Egon Petri.


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## Cortot

If you are curious about Beethoven in 19 century spontaneous style, I will suggest two names: Josef Hofmann and Josef Labor.


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## DavidA

Another great unfinished cycle is by the incomparable Rudolf Serkin. He made several recordings each of the popular 'name' sonatas. Why didn't he record a complete set?









This recording is very reasonably priced and has the concertos on it as well.


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## vincula

DavidA said:


> View attachment 140087
> 
> 
> I find Annie Fischer to be one of the greatest Beethoven pianists. A complete set is on Hungaraton but is not so gratefully recorded as those she made for EMI. Orchestral players dubbed her 'Ashtray Annie' for her incessant smoking!


I've got this box. A smoking bargain. I love her Schubert and Mozart too. She's a bit more restrained in her playing in the studio, but there's always a sense of coherence in the way she phrases. Sounds unforced and very "natural". I find her addictive.

Regards,

Vincula


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## NLAdriaan

DavidA said:


> ... Why didn't he record a complete set?...


A possible good reason for incomplete cycles could be that the musician has decided to play the works which (s)he relates to and to let go of the works (s)he doesn't. As consumers we want complete cycles in big boxes, so the market provides for them. The dedication of a musician seems to be a better lead than the commercial driver of the market. So, the incomplete cycles on the market could also be the go-to's for musical dedication.

Nonetheless, I like your endeavor to listen to all of Beethoven's piano sonatas. Before you know it, you only listen to the warhorses and forget about the others.

Did you make any (re-)discoveries so far?


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## Enthusiast

DavidA said:


> View attachment 140087
> 
> 
> I find Annie Fischer to be one of the greatest Beethoven pianists. A complete set is on Hungaraton but is not so gratefully recorded as those she made for EMI. Orchestral players dubbed her 'Ashtray Annie' for her incessant smoking!


I find nothing much wrong with the sound of Annie's Hungaraton set and it is so much more penetrating ... .


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## damianjb1

DavidA said:


> I read an article in The Spectator which said that to get to know Beethoven you have to know his 32 piano sonatas because they 'are Beethoven's laboratory'. They 'join the dots' for his other works. So I've decided to listen to the 32 for the Beethoven year. I'm listening to Schnabel on Op 2no1 at the moment. What recordings do you find enlightening?


I'd recommend Jonathan Biss. They're new recordings. Wonderful playing and superb sound.


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## damianjb1

DavidA said:


> I read an article in The Spectator which said that to get to know Beethoven you have to know his 32 piano sonatas because they 'are Beethoven's laboratory'. They 'join the dots' for his other works. So I've decided to listen to the 32 for the Beethoven year. I'm listening to Schnabel on Op 2no1 at the moment. What recordings do you find enlightening?


Did you know that the Bach 48 Preludes and Fugues is the Old Testament and Beethoven's 32 Piano Sonata's is the New Testament of Piano Music??


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## premont

damianjb1 said:


> Did you know that the Bach 48 Preludes and Fugues is the Old Testament and Beethoven's 32 Piano Sonata's is the New Testament of Piano Music??


According to Hans von Bülow:

https://online.ucpress.edu/jm/article/35/1/42/63680/Hans-von-Bulow-and-the-Confessionalization-of


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## DavidA

damianjb1 said:


> Did you know that the Bach 48 Preludes and Fugues is the Old Testament and Beethoven's 32 Piano Sonata's is the New Testament of Piano Music??


If you read the Bible that comparison is sadly inappropriate


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## Luchesi

DavidA said:


> If you read the Bible that comparison is sadly inappropriate


Does it depend upon which theologian you admire?


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## DavidA

Luchesi said:


> Does it depend upon which theologian you admire?


No it just means that if a theologian believes that they misunderstood the Bible. Much of the old Testament has passed away for salvation but the WTC hasn't


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## Luchesi

DavidA said:


> No it just means that if a theologian believes that they misunderstood the Bible. Much of the old Testament has passed away for salvation but the WTC hasn't


You continually make pronouncements you have no evidence for.


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## DavidA

Luchesi said:


> You continually make pronouncements you have no evidence for.


If you read the new Testament there is plenty of evidence for what I say. Please read the book of Hebrews


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## Luchesi

DavidA said:


> If you read the new Testament there is plenty of evidence for what I say. Please read the book of Hebrews


Also read about the people of the time (including his family) concerned about his mental health. Harsh times, occupying forces. Religious paranoia was going around.

I would have been a religionist back then.


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## DavidA

Luchesi said:


> Also read about the people of the time (including his family) concerned about his mental health. Harsh times, occupying forces. Religious paranoia was going around.
> 
> I would have been a religionist back then.


Oh dear! Then just read about what the same people did after he rose from the dead! :lol:


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## DavidA

Just getting back to the subject of Beethoven, I would advise anyone to seek out Richter playing the sonatas especially at the height of his powers during the 1960s-1970s. He was never a completist but his playing is phenomenal.


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## Luchesi

DavidA said:


> Oh dear! Then just read about what the same people did after he rose from the dead! :lol:


Oh dear! The stories from my religion make good reading.


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## DavidA

Luchesi said:


> Oh dear! The stories from my religion make good reading.


Please note this is about Beethoven sonatas. There are other threads to discuss religion. It seems some people just can't take a hint!


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## Luchesi

DavidA said:


> Please note this is about Beethoven sonatas. There are other threads to discuss religion. It seems some people just can't take a hint!


That's quite funny.


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## DavidA

Luchesi said:


> That's quite funny.


No just true. It's about the Beethoven piano sonatas.


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## vincula

My favourite's probably Annie Fischer's set for Hungaroton, but these days I find myself listening quite often to Gulda. I've got the complete sonatas on vinyl. They approach Beethoven in a totally different way, but I find both engaging and never clinical, even though Gulda can get a bit too eccentric at times. I agree on Richter too, David. Have some recordings on Melodiya from the 60's on less-than-ideal sound, but powerful renditions nonetheless. Martha Argerich should get some credit too, even though she limits herself to some of them, at least on record. For late night listening I usually prefer Arrau. I lie and wallow in sound! Somehow it does not reach me during the day in the same way. Perhaps I'm just bonkers :lol:

I've got some other's I don't enjoy as much as expected. One good example is Maria Joao Pires. I simply can't get into her Beethoven, as much as I love her Mozart or even some Chopin. 

Regards,

Vincula


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## KenOC

Listening on YouTube to some early Beethoven sonatas from Igor Levit's new cycle. I like to compare cycles with the 4th movement of Op. 2 no. 2, due to the great variety of touch and all those string-of-pearls upward runs. Levit does great here and I can easily compare him with Schiff and Gilels (though still the edge to Schiff).


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## Oldhoosierdude

This is still about Beethoven?

Ok, I have hoopla through my library. All of the prominent sets mentioned are there. Think ill listen through a few. Although I do like the ones I have.


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## DavidA

Just listening to Schnabel. The sound isn't that bad and the playing is probably what Beethoven might have himself sounded like.


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## Oldhoosierdude

DavidA said:


> Just listening to Schnabel. The sound isn't that bad and the playing is probably what Beethoven might have himself sounded like.


Not surprised. Schnabel could channel Beethoven.


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## ToneDeaf&Senile

Came across a recent (Nov 2020) live performance of Ronald Brautigam playing Beethoven's piano sonata No.18 "Hunt" on a fine sounding fortepiano:




(Don't worry, the open talk lasts no more than a minute.)


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## mparta

DavidA said:


> Just getting back to the subject of Beethoven, I would advise anyone to seek out Richter playing the sonatas especially at the height of his powers during the 1960s-1970s. He was never a completist but his playing is phenomenal.


Really? Some effect of the recordings and instruments, but my general sense of Richter's Beethoven recordings is that he bludgeons them. It's easier to play so coarsely. And on film he looks like it's a chore.


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## Guest

I think this recent release is spectacular in every aspect:


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## Luchesi

mparta said:


> Really? Some effect of the recordings and instruments, but my general sense of Richter's Beethoven recordings is that he bludgeons them. It's easier to play so coarsely. And on film he looks like it's a chore.


Yes, he's easier to watch in the cello sonatas. (over two hours)


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## mparta

This is the recording that first made me hear the late sonatas in a way that made me care about them.

Now I think it's peculiar and a little geriatric in some ways, but I still love it and hear Beethoven more than in any one else's performances. There was never a sense of ease with Serkin, more a sense of conquest, not technical but he wrestled with how untouchably great Beethoven is and I don't think it's wrong to feel that. False comfort from a big technique that makes it sound easy, it's not easy music, there's nothing else like it.

It's on DVD too. Serkin was very annoyed because he didn't know they were making/releasing a film but i am so glad to have it.


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## SearsPoncho

mparta said:


> View attachment 148240
> 
> 
> This is the recording that first made me hear the late sonatas in a way that made me care about them.
> 
> Now I think it's peculiar and a little geriatric in some ways, but I still love it and hear Beethoven more than in any one else's performances. There was never a sense of ease with Serkin, more a sense of conquest, not technical but he wrestled with how untouchably great Beethoven is and I don't think it's wrong to feel that. False comfort from a big technique that makes it sound easy, it's not easy music, there's nothing else like it.
> 
> It's on DVD too. Serkin was very annoyed because he didn't know they were making/releasing a film but i am so glad to have it.


This was my first exposure to Beethoven's final three sonatas. I believe I bought the cassette tape in the late 80s or early 90s. I haven't heard it in a while, but I do remember that it felt like I was eavesdropping on some kind of mystical event or occurrence. I found the music completely perplexing at the time, yet I still felt I was listening to something special. I also remember that the mistakes were left in. Serkin was great at Beethoven, Mozart and Brahms.


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## SearsPoncho

I recently received Claudio Arrau's '60's cycle as a (unsolicited) gift. It's an Italian Decca release. I will be listening to at least one sonata a day. I don't know if this is the same set that is on the Philips label, some of which I already have. I've already heard the first two sonatas and am impressed. This might be a best-of-all-possible-worlds set. Absolutely gorgeous sound, phrasing, voicing, and articulation, somewhat reminiscent of Gilels beautiful-sounding set. 

I'm also a big fan of Annie Fischer's Beethoven. Ditto for Schnabel, Gilels, Pollini (especially the late sonatas and my favorite Hammerklavier), Richter and Serkin.


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## Dimace

SearsPoncho said:


> I recently received Claudio Arrau's '60's cycle as a (unsolicited) gift. It's an Italian Decca release. I will be listening to at least one sonata a day. I don't know if this is the same set that is on the Philips label, some of which I already have. I've already heard the first two sonatas and am impressed. This might be a best-of-all-possible-worlds set. Absolutely gorgeous sound, phrasing, voicing, and articulation, somewhat reminiscent of Gilels beautiful-sounding set.
> 
> I'm also a big fan of *Annie Fischer's* Beethoven. Ditto for* Schnabel*, Gilels, Pollini (especially the late sonatas and my favorite Hammerklavier), *Richter *and * Serkin.*


Yes Sir! :tiphat:


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## mparta

SearsPoncho said:


> I recently received Claudio Arrau's '60's cycle as a (unsolicited) gift. It's an Italian Decca release. I will be listening to at least one sonata a day. I don't know if this is the same set that is on the Philips label, some of which I already have. I've already heard the first two sonatas and am impressed. This might be a best-of-all-possible-worlds set. Absolutely gorgeous sound, phrasing, voicing, and articulation, somewhat reminiscent of Gilels beautiful-sounding set.
> 
> I'm also a big fan of Annie Fischer's Beethoven. Ditto for Schnabel, Gilels, Pollini (especially the late sonatas and my favorite Hammerklavier), Richter and Serkin.


I possess but haven't listened to Annie Fischer for a long time, probably worth going back. Schnabel I can take or leave, usually leave. Gilels has many of the virtues of Arrau, in that he is both an absolute master pianist and takes this music to its appropriate depth. Having seen Pollini perform numerous times and having the Beethoven DG recordings, I sometimes listen to hear the music in the absence of a real interpreter, but I find him inherently uninteresting, he has no sense of the sensuous nature of piano sound that you can see Arrau and Gilels wrestling from the piano on their videos. I heard Pollini play Gaspard, just flatter than a pancake. I sat on stage in Vienna for his Appassionato though and it was pretty impressive, his drive and immaculate technique served him well.

I've probably posted this before, but Arrau's video of Op 111 is otherworldly, I do not expect to hear the likes of it in my lifetime. That's the reward of millions of hours dedicated both to the instrument and the meaning of the music. Maybe the result of his mother telling him, after they heard Horowitz' NY debut, "you need to practice".:lol:


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## perdido34

I had a chance to hear some of the first Kempff set of the sonatas in the Pristine Audio version. I found the playing mostly dull and uninvolving. After hearing a few of them, I turned to the newly reissued Moravec version of Sonata 23, and wow!


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## Handelian

perdido34 said:


> I had a chance to hear some of the first Kempff set of the sonatas in the Pristine Audio version. I found the playing mostly dull and uninvolving. After hearing a few of them, I turned to the newly reissued Moravec version of Sonata 23, and wow!


Kempff dull and unnvolving? Was it the transfer? Mine are superb


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## SearsPoncho

The variety of timbre and textures Arrau coaxes out of his piano in his 60's cycle is remarkable. I've never really heard that done in Beethoven, or at least not to that extent. Kudos to Decca for capturing it all in such vivid sound.


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## MusicInTheAir

David, I think the reason he didn't complete the cycle is because he was very self-critical. Several of the sonatas in this set were approved for release by Peter Serkin after Rudolf's death. I'm not sure if a complete Serkin Beethoven sonata set was the original plan, it probably was, just like his recording all the Mozart piano concertos was. But I think between his lack of satisfaction with some of the recordings he did make and (for this I'm guessing) the decreased interest in making classical recordings, both these planned complete sets came to fruition. Serkin didn't seem completely happy with the recording process.


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## mparta

MusicInTheAir said:


> David, I think the reason he didn't complete the cycle is because he was very self-critical. Several of the sonatas in this set were approved for release by Peter Serkin after Rudolf's death. I'm not sure if a complete Serkin Beethoven sonata set was the original plan, it probably was, just like his recording all the Mozart piano concertos was. But I think between his lack of satisfaction with some of the recordings he did make and (for this I'm guessing) the decreased interest in making classical recordings, both these planned complete sets came to fruition. Serkin didn't seem completely happy with the recording process.


A great musician whose self-perception included working to play the piano. I think many pianists who no longer have that also lose their sense of dedication to the performance, never a problem with Serkin. Interesting biography available, by the way. I don't agree with a lot of things he does but I would never question the integrity of his process. I once saw Louis Lortie play the Chopin Etudes at Carnegie Hall and he did that looking up in the air thing that is so dismissive of the playing itself (Earl Wild-- "stop looking up in the air, look at the keyboard, that's where the action is"-- maybe he said this, maybe he didn't, but I like it so credit whereever I want to put it:lol and I hear that in Lortie's playing.

Someone mentioned Moravec, incomparable in more than one way. Kempff not a patch on Moravec technically, but Moravec also a completely integraged technician to do what he wanted. Few pianists make such a sculpted sound and shape and Kempff much more an on the wing player (little wings, not big wings).

I haven't gone back to look at all the posts but I guess I'm a bit interested by Levit's set, haven't heard it but had his late sonatas and thought they were ok, I hear some faults in his playing that bother me a bit but I saw him play and was very taken, really more honestly knocked out by his Shostakovich. Which does not a great Beethoven player make.

I hear nothing in Jonathan Biss, i think he's a marketing thing. Hardly any discussion ever of Garrick Ohlsson, who is a truly great, as in great in the long line of real pianists like Hofmann and Rachmaninoff. player. Again, doesn't guarantee a Beethoven player. Interesting conundrum.


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## mparta

Cortot said:


> If you are curious about Beethoven in 19 century spontaneous style, I will suggest two names: Josef Hofmann and Josef Labor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When i first heard that tempo I thought, wow, only Hoffman will pull that off!! then he doesn't-- he doesn't play the written rhythm. The underlying pulse is with the staccato 16th notes (I don't ever know what the English call those, hemidemisemiotic quavers or whatever) and the technical challenge in this movement is the interspersed 32nds, they're technically a bit of a thing because they require some really supple wrists and exact placement of the hand, so the tempo is crucial in keeping the 16ths allegro while allowing for those tiny, micro insertions that are NOT OPTIONAL, MR. HOFFMAN.
> good lord what a horrifying example of a great musician dishonoring a composer.


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## mparta

ToneDeaf&Senile said:


> Came across a recent (Nov 2020) live performance of Ronald Brautigam playing Beethoven's piano sonata No.18 "Hunt" on a fine sounding fortepiano:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Don't worry, the open talk lasts no more than a minute.)


he's really superb, but I just don't like the sound of the instrument, not that particular one, I prefer a real modern piano.
And the second movement is too fast, although I can see his intent, I don't hear the rhythm clearly, it's as if there were no point to Beethoven having bothered to write the rhythm since the player doesn't allow it to be heard.

But in general he is superb. He studied with Serkin I think.

Regarding the specifics of Op. 31 #3, the second movement with the staccato left hand at the beginning and a lot of staccato thereafter: the tempo indication is allegretto, not allegro. Allegretto vivace, the vivace being provided by the staccato and sharp rhythms with the interspersed 32nd notes. Both the Hofmann and this Brautigam are too fast to delineate the written rhythms. One misses the spit and sparkle of what Beethoven wrote.


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