# Notable omission from the "Ten Favorites"?



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Has anyone started a "Ten Favorite German Composers" thread? If not, why not? I have my theories, but I'd be interested to hear what everyone has to say about why such a thread would or would not be illuminating.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

One thing militating against it... a dispute would coalesce around the question of: to what extent do we wish to include Austrians in our consideration?

Therefore (I suggest, humbly), if we were to do so, I'd propose a careful wording of the question, e.g.: "Favorite German-born Composers" or "Favorite German-speaking composers."


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Alternatively, you could rephrase it as "Favorite Teutonic Composers" or "Favorite Germanic Composers," sort of the same way Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Greenland, and Iceland were grouped together in the "Top Ten Favorite Nordic Composers" thread.

But I'm willing to bet the lack of a German list goes beyond the semantic questions of what constitutes a German. I think it also has to do with the way nationalism is (or is not) perceived depending on the nationality in question. It's analogous to the phenomenon one finds in music appreciation textbooks where one will read about Rossini the _Italian_ composer, Debussy the _French_ composer, Stravinsky the _Russian_ composer, and Beethoven the _composer_. It's rather interesting to me how some composers are defined by their nationality while others are not.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Eschbeg said:


> Has anyone started a "Ten Favorite German Composers" thread? If not, why not? I have my theories, but I'd be interested to hear what everyone has to say about why such a thread would or would not be illuminating.


I don't think it is an omission at all:

Naming Ten Germanic composers would not likely set a problem or task for most forum members, while the OP's clearly state they are a question because the poster realized 'ten favorite British composers," or "ten favorite Hispanic composers" etc., did not so readily spring to mind -- for him or for many other members -- while (implied) there is no such 'problem' with the Germanic set.


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

I don't doubt what you say but what you describe as the motivation for these lists seems counterintuitive to me. The more difficult it is to come up with ten Nordic composers, the less meaningful a "Top 10" becomes. I'm willing to bet that many responders included some names on their lists simply because they've _heard_ of the composer and not because that composer has more compelling music than all the other Nordic composers they could have chosen from. If it's easier to list Germanic composers, then you'd think a "Top 10 Germanic Composers" would be a more natural topic of discussion. The whole concept of a "Top 10" seems to presuppose that there are more than ten contenders for the list, so it's very strange to me that Top 10s would sprout up for nationalities where it's more difficult to come up with contenders.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Has anyone started a "Ten Favorite German Composers" thread? If not, why not? I have my theories, but I'd be interested to hear what everyone has to say about why such a thread would or would not be illuminating.

In limiting myself to 10 favorite French or Italian or even the English composers the challenge, for me, was that here were so many composers that I am am readily familiar with and love... that I had to leave out of the "Ten Favorite". With the Spanish/Portuguese tradition the problem was quite the reverse: thinking of 10 composers I knew well enough to even begin to think of "favorites". With the Russians I am familiar with a sizable number of composers... but only a core group of 6 or so really stand out to me. The incredible wealth of great music and composers within the German/Austrian tradition is so towering I wouldn't know where to begin... outside of simply rattling off the names of the obvious: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Haydn, Handel, Wagner, Schumann, Brahms, Mahler, Richard Strauss... and there... I've already gone beyond the imposed limit.

I also suspected... as can be seen from the newly begun thread... that most of the same names would appear on everybody's lists.

It certainly had nothing whatsoever to do with issues of nationalism in connection with Germany... My background is German.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Maybe German and Austrian composers are of a sufficient number to warrant separation?


----------



## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

elgars ghost said:


> Maybe German and Austrian composers are of a sufficient number to warrant separation?


Hear, hear!


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> It certainly had nothing whatsoever to do with issues of nationalism in connection with Germany....


I don't think it does either, but nor do I think that the lack of such a list (until today) had simply to do with the difficulty of devising such a list--one would think that the difficulty is precisely what would make the list fun to compile. I just find it interesting that the categorizing impulse is not as automatic with German composers as it is with anyone else.

Another case in point: I once attended a concert featuring the music of Massanet, Bizet, Saint-Saëns, and the title of the concert was "Viva la France." I attended another concert featuring Klein, Dvorak, and Smetana, and it was called the "Nationalism" concert. But when I attended a concert of Haydn, Brahms, and Reger, no one saw fit to identify the concert by the shared nationality of its composers; it was just a concert.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

What about doing an Eastern European Top 10? Not including Russia, but including Poland, Czech countries, some Balkan countries.


----------



## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

There definitely needs to be a Pole poll, for the name alone.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Asian composers.


----------



## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Eschbeg said:


> The more difficult it is to come up with ten Nordic composers, the less meaningful a "Top 10" becomes. I'm willing to bet that many responders included some names on their lists simply because they've _heard_ of the composer and not because that composer has more compelling music than all the other Nordic composers they could have chosen from ... The whole concept of a "Top 10" seems to presuppose that there are more than ten contenders for the list, so it's very strange to me that Top 10s would sprout up for nationalities where it's more difficult to come up with contenders.


I disagree with your statements here, Eschbeg.

If you view my entry in the "Top 10 Nordic" thread, you can read where I could easily list 25 Finnish composers - and this would be in addition to those from Norway, Sweden, etc.

A significant aspect to consider is the time period. Speaking for myself, I don't have as much as 10 favorite Germanic composers - my list, if any, would probably cite the Austrian Friedrich Cerha and Germans Hans Zender & Wolfgang Rihm ... with, perhaps, German film composer Hans-Martin Majewski in tow. 

This is because my area of interest is, overall, post-1912 music.

Perhaps your difficulty to "come up with contenders" for the Nordic category is because you are, for the most part, considering pre-20th century music?


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'd add to what chitown is saying above that Austria & Germany (& Switzerland for that matter) aren't the same thing. Language can be a bit rubbery, eg. Schnittke spoke German way before he was taught Russian (he was ethnic German, his ancestors came to Russia, as many did come to the Volga region, I think in about the 18th century, roughly). Another big example is Liszt who did not speak Hungarian, yet some say he's Hungarian (well I think he was ethnically Hungarian, but he spent time in France, Italy, Switzerland, apart from Hungary, so I see him as more European than Hungarian, but anyway).

Then there's various skeletons in the closet like Anschluss, the Nazi invasion of Austria in 1938. Yep, a lot of Austrians greeted that as a great event, their 'old boy' coming home, but I think that for many who did not line the Ringstrasse to do the Nazi salute, it was a day they'd rather forget.

I bought this issue here as I did not want to 'pollute' the thread in question.


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Prodromides said:


> This is because my area of interest is, overall, post-1912 music.


Mine too. More like post-1930s for me, with a lull between about 1950 and 1970, and then a strong resurgence from the late 70s onward.



Prodromides said:


> Perhaps your difficulty to "come up with contenders" for the Nordic category is because you are, for the most part, considering pre-20th century music?


I'm not saying you or me or any other particular person would have difficulty. I was responding to the notion that the reason it took so long for a Germanic list to arise is because there are too many to pick from. My point is that if there are too many to pick from, then you'd think a Germanic list would have sprouted up sooner, not later, since the bigger the candidate pool the more meaningful a "Top 10" list becomes. So it seems to me that the belatedness of the Germanic thread is symptomatic of something else.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I'd add to what chitown is saying above that Austria & Germany (& Switzerland for that matter) aren't the same thing. Language can be a bit rubbery, eg. Schnittke spoke German way before he was taught Russian (he was ethnic German, his ancestors came to Russia, as many did come to the Volga region, I think in about the 18th century, roughly). Another big example is Liszt who did not speak Hungarian, yet some say he's Hungarian (well I think he was ethnically Hungarian, but he spent time in France, Italy, Switzerland, apart from Hungary, so I see him as more European than Hungarian, but anyway).
> 
> Then there's various skeletons in the closet like Anschluss, the Nazi invasion of Austria in 1938. Yep, a lot of Austrians greeted that as a great event, their 'old boy' coming home, but I think that for many who did not line the Ringstrasse to do the Nazi salute, it was a day they'd rather forget.
> 
> I bought this issue here as I did not want to 'pollute' the thread in question.


Sid, I was reading this post of yours and I must say that I find its veracity questionable.
Liszt was born in the village of Doborjan in the Kingdom of Hungary. ( I just recently posted all of this in another thread).
His father was steward for Prince Esterhazy and the family was resident in the Prince's estate. His father would only speak Hungarian when dealing with the locals ,so I'm quite sure that Liszt could speak the language.
As a composer he was the most prominent member of the New German School because this was where he and others saw the future.
Nevertheless, I am sure that he considered himself Hungarian and that he was fiercely loyal to Hungary.
He actually had residences in Rome,Weimar and Budapest.( How many composers and artists today live all over the shop?)
He established the Conservatory of Music in Budapest and was its first president.
His last major piano composition was the Hungarian Historical Portraits, this was written as a memorial to seven patriots who personified the struggle for freedom in the country . They were active in the civil war of 1848 and were reformers in education and social life, critics of the old society. There was a leading poet and playwright famous for his patriotic writings, there was Count Teleki a leader in the 1848 struggle and an ex-political prisoner who eventually commited suicide, there was also a leading member of the "Freedom Party" during the 1848 conflict and Sandor Petofi the poet who died following the fighting in one of the battles and Mihaly Mosonyi the composer.
Other compositions were dedicated to some of these figures e.g. the symphonic poem "Hungarica", the Ungaria-Cantate and Funerailles.


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

moody said:


> Liszt was born in the village of Doborjan in the Kingdom of Hungary. ( I just recently posted all of this in another thread).
> His father was steward for Prince Esterhazy and the family was resident in the Prince's estate. His father would only speak Hungarian when dealing with the locals ,so I'm quite sure that Liszt could speak the language.


But the Esterhazys were allied with the Hapsburg empire, so the dominant language was German. Liszt never had more than a child's command of the Hungarian language, as he admitted as late as 1873 in a letter to a friend.


----------



## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

I gather it's true that Liszt spoke very little Hungarian and what he did very badly. He always viewed himself as Hungarian though. You have to take into account that Hungary was part of a larger Empire then and that German speaking was normal for people of his class, in that region, at that time. From what I understand the systematic teaching of Hungarian throughout the country only began when he was in his mid 20s. He actually tried to improve his Hungarian but found it too difficult and gave up.



> His father would only speak Hungarian when dealing with the locals


I suspect this is a reference to the current wikipedia article on Liszt. It's such a random piece on information, quite clearly ducking the issue of whether Liszt himself actually spoke Hungarian, that it's difficult to avoid the suspicion that it was added by someone with a Hungarian nationalist agenda attempting to assert Liszt's 'Hungarianess' (unnecessarily in my view, but it has been a hot potato in the past).


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

hocket said:


> He always viewed himself as Hungarian though.


Undoubtedly. I think one of the assumptions often made about nationalism (I'm not saying anyone has done it here, though we've come pretty close) is that one must feel loyalty toward only one nation at a time. This model tends not to work very well in multi-ethnic empires like the one Liszt was born into. It's not like calling Liszt a cosmopolitan or a spokesperson of the New German School (since he was unquestionably both of those things) compromises his Hungarian identity.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Eschbeg said:


> I don't think it does either, but nor do I think that the lack of such a list (until today) had simply to do with the difficulty of devising such a list--one would think that the difficulty is precisely what would make the list fun to compile. I just find it interesting that the categorizing impulse is not as automatic with German composers as it is with anyone else.
> 
> Another case in point: I once attended a concert featuring the music of Massanet, Bizet, Saint-Saëns, and the title of the concert was "Viva la France." I attended another concert featuring Klein, Dvorak, and Smetana, and it was called the "Nationalism" concert. But when I attended a concert of Haydn, Brahms, and Reger, no one saw fit to identify the concert by the shared nationality of its composers; it was just a concert.


I think that your imagination has gone into overtime.


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

moody said:


> I think that your imagination has gone into overtime.


You may think so, just as you may think it perfectly and objectively reasonable that Willi Apel, a once-towering figure of musicology, once defined "nationalist music" as music from outside Germany. Or that the chapter on nineteenth century music in Michael Kamien's widely used music appreciation textbook has a section devoted to _composers_ like Schumann, Brahms, Wagner, et. al., followed by a section on _nationalist_ composers like Mussorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Borodin, Smetana, Dvorak, Grieg, Sibelius, and Albeniz. Find me a nationalist themed concert which (unlike this one or this one or this one) features an all-German cast, or even just a German, and I'll believe like you that all of this is mere coincidence.

I have no doubt that listeners who have internalized the geography of classical music as its been passed down from generation to generation will never quite see why this is a double standard, sort of the same way we will always define "ethnic food" as food that isn't from wherever we're from.


----------

