# Mozart’s violin concertos



## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Hi everyone, do you like these violin concertos. They are for me a joy to listen to. I’m partial to grumiaux/davis with the LSO playing at the top of their game. These works aren’t technically difficult for soloists so it’s all about the phrasing to make a performance successful. Oistrakh feels like a more heavy performance with the Berlin phil. I like that grumiaux is light and precise. Heifetz only recorded 4 and 5, not as good as grumiaux but definitely better than Oistrakh. Feel free to discuss your recommendations.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

The Violin Concertos get a bad rap, but I've always enjoyed them greatly. Nos. 3 and 5 are especially rewarding. As for recordings, Lin/Salonen are super. My favorite recording comes from Viktoria Mullova on period violin with cadenzas by Ottavio Dantone.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I don't think they get a bad rap. They are probably the most frequently played and recorded Mozart pieces from this period. My favorites are also 3 and 5 and my favorite recording probably Grumiaux/Davis although I never systematically compared the bunch I have (Heifetz, Manze, Dumay with partial, Grumiaux, Zehetmair and Carmignola with cplt sets).


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Do they get a bad wrap because they’re early Mozart? Because of that reason I find them wonderful.


Bulldog said:


> The Violin Concertos get a bad rap, but I've always enjoyed them greatly. Nos. 3 and 5 are especially rewarding. As for recordings, Lin/Salonen are super. My favorite recording comes from Viktoria Mullova on period violin with cadenzas by Ottavio Dantone.





Kreisler jr said:


> I don't think they get a bad rap. They are probably the most frequently played and recorded Mozart pieces from this period. My favorites are also 3 and 5 and my favorite recording probably Grumiaux/Davis although I never systematically compared the bunch I have (Heifetz, Manze, Dumay with partial, Grumiaux, Zehetmair and Carmignola with cplt sets).


my favorites are also 3 and 5, but I like 4 as well. Yet to listen to 1 and 2, are they good as well?


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## Great Uncle Frederick (Mar 17, 2021)

Another Grumiaux fan here!


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I like them, but they aren't essential Mozart to me. I wish the composer had returned to the VC genre when he was older and more mature. Nos. 3 and 5 are my favorites.

I have Abbado/Carmignola and Antonini/Faust, and I prefer the former.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

1+2 are good enough but not as distinctive as the later (by a few months or so) ones. I especially like the slow movement of the 3rd with the flutes and the picturesque finale of the 5th. The best piece overall by some margin is the somewhat later sinfonia concertante, that is often coupled with some concerti. The concertone for two violins is also quite good, it even has extra quasi-concertante oboe and cello in some sections, IIRC.

Mozart supposedly wrote them for himself; why he later only played piano as soloist and abandoned the violin and also never wrote for another violin virtuoso, I don't know (the fragment of a double violin/piano concerto was supposedly for himself on violin and his sister on piano). But it is a remainder of the "pragmatism" that still dominated in Mozart's time and musical culture. He wrote all piano concerti either for himself or for people we know by name, similarly we know the people who played horn, clarinet in the respective concerti (I am too lazy to look up the flute/harp/oboe but assume the same). He almost never wrote anything without a pretty specific occasion or at least a plan for such, maybe some piano and chamber music were exceptions but no concerto. That's not special about Mozart either, especially concerti were almost never composed without a specific artist (usually composer himself) and/or occasion in mind. This is probably the simple reason we have no concerti by Schubert or no woodwind concerti by Beethoven etc.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Why would that mean that we have no concerti of Schubert or woodwind concerti by Beethoven? Schubert didn’t know any soloists?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

At least not well enough that they wanted him to write a concerto, otherwise he would probably have grasped the opportunity to get performed. Of course the negative argument I suggested is doubtful. But for almost all concerti since Mozart, especially uncommon ones we can probably name the soloist it was intended for. Mozart apparently didn't think like "it's been 10 years since I wrote any violin concerti, I should write one to show what I can do with it now". We see this also in his piano concerti. He wrote about 15 in 4 years between late 1782 and 1786, then two in the last 5 years of his life. 
Beethoven stopped writing piano concerti once his deafness made it impossible for him to perform them himself (although I think this was not the only reason, he would have had virtuoso performers from his students like Czerny or Ries who would certainly have been proud to present a 6th (there are sketches for one) or 7th piano concerto).


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

I bought the Grumiaux/Davis Mozart VCs when they first came out on lp...and I've never had the need for any other interpretations beyond those by Grumiaux. My musical favorites among the composer's five are his Third and Fourth.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Some credit should go to Colin Davis for the alert accompaniment as well!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Mozart supposedly wrote them for himself; why he later only played piano as soloist and abandoned the violin and also never wrote for another violin virtuoso, I don't know (the fragment of a double violin/piano concerto was supposedly for himself on violin and his sister on piano).


During the Viennese years, Mozart had quite a number of piano students, such as Barbara Ployer, who also played his concertos in public. That might be one of the reasons.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think it's pretty clear why he favored and wrote a lot of piano concerti. But it seems a bit odd that he wrote as many or more violin concerti in Salzburg than for piano (5 + 2 double for strings, 4 + one double + one triple for piano) but completely gave them up in Vienna. He supposedly kept playing violin and viola in chamber music and wrote lots of violin sonatas but apparently piano concertos were so much more popular or interested himself more that he had no time or interest for violin, less than for the horn and clarinet concerts for his friends.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Kreisler jr said:


> Some credit should go to Colin Davis for the alert accompaniment as well!


Absolutely, one of the great Mozart interpreters IMO. He knows how to phrase Mozart delicately and for me brings out the spirit of the works.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

In 2017 there came s ten new set, I bought it and never regretted it. I love the older recording but this is vey good 



James Ehnes (violin)
Mozart Anniversary Orchestra


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Sign me up for the Grumiaux fan club too.

I like them all, though I find no.2 maybe a little less absorbing than the others.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I have always preferred No. 4. My favorite performances are Hillary Hahn on a BBC recording (she also made a commercial recording) and Itzhak Perlman's with the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra for the rubato in the final movement


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)




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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Mozart Violin Concertos are my favorites among Classical Music and of course, Mozart's own compositions. They were also my introductions to all Classical Music. Although their greatness are not comparable with the Big Four violin concertos, but they aer short, concise and super enjoyable. I listen to them while working, because they are not that deep and therefore take less of my concentration while listening to them. I am planning to introduce some people to Classical Music and I think Mozart Violin Concertos are the right way.


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## GMB (10 mo ago)

For Mozart's violin works, I love the 16 sonatas with piano. Anne Sophie Mutter's live recordings are very good. The sloe movements are some of the most personal works he wrote. I prefer them to all but two of the solo piano sonatas.I also love the Sinfonia Concertante k364 for violin and viola. Just trying to be helpful!


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

I have yet to try out the sinfonia concertante. At a bit of a crossroads, because generally whatever Marriner and the ASMF recorded for the movie Amadeus is my favorite recording of that work because those recordings are just so good!! Btw so is almost everything Marriner recorded of Mozart, which is basically every work of him. So the movie soundtrack includes sinfonia concertante but it’s only the 1st movement. So maybe I will just get to know the 1st movement via that recording and then compare with the rest to see which recording I’m going to use for the entire work. Or I could pick an earlier recording by Marriner and ASMF that they did of the work, but I’m not sure if it’s as good as the later only 1st movement one


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

The sinfonia concertante is included in the twofer of the Grumiaux concertos, if you have access to the latter, you should also be able to find the sinfonia concertante.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

EvaBaron said:


> I have yet to try out the sinfonia concertante. At a bit of a crossroads, because generally whatever Marriner and the ASMF recorded for the movie Amadeus is my favorite recording of that work because those recordings are just so good!! Btw so is almost everything Marriner recorded of Mozart, which is basically every work of him. So the movie soundtrack includes sinfonia concertante but it’s only the 1st movement. So maybe I will just get to know the 1st movement via that recording and then compare with the rest to see which recording I’m going to use for the entire work. Or I could pick an earlier recording by Marriner and ASMF that they did of the work, but I’m not sure if it’s as good as the later only 1st movement one


You might consider buying this cheap CD. I believe that Oistrakh conducts the Mozart. The disc, of course, includes one of the great recordings of the Brahms concerto:


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## Laraine Anne Barker (8 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> I have yet to try out the sinfonia concertante. At a bit of a crossroads, because generally whatever Marriner and the ASMF recorded for the movie Amadeus is my favorite recording of that work because those recordings are just so good!! Btw so is almost everything Marriner recorded of Mozart, which is basically every work of him. So the movie soundtrack includes sinfonia concertante but it’s only the 1st movement. So maybe I will just get to know the 1st movement via that recording and then compare with the rest to see which recording I’m going to use for the entire work. Or I could pick an earlier recording by Marriner and ASMF that they did of the work, but I’m not sure if it’s as good as the later only 1st movement one


This is my favourite Mozart orchestral work. I seem to have three recordings (most unusual for me; I seldom manage more than one on account of cost). They are (in no particular order):
Stephanie and Roger Chase, Hanover Band Roy Goodman
Vilde Frang and Jonathan Cohen, Arcangelo
Thomas Zehetmair Ruth Killius; Orchestra of the 18th Century, Franz Brüggen
I don't buy recordings by dead musicians. I prefer to support living ones. I like them better anyway.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I like 3 and 5 best, but would rate them lower than a handful (or more) of piano concertos, two horn concertos, the oboe concerto and best of all the clarinet concerto. I have the 3d and 5th combined on a CD by Perlman and Levine on DG.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I would think for Mozart fans - the VCs are indispensable - as they are for me. Compared with his output from that period - the last 3 (3-5) really shine - inspired compositions.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Art Rock said:


> I like 3 and 5 best, but would rate them lower than a handful (or more) of piano concertos, two horn concertos, the oboe concerto and best of all the clarinet concerto. I have the 3d and 5th combined on a CD by Perlman and Levine on DG.


Don't forget the bassoon concerto, KV 191! I agree with your sentiments.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

1, 2 & 3 - Itzhak Perlman with James Levine and Wiener Philharmoniker
4 – Jascha Heifetz
5 – Armin Jordan with Lausanne Chamber Orchestra
They are what got me into CM. Still play them today. 1 & 2 are wonderful.


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## Laraine Anne Barker (8 mo ago)

Art Rock said:


> I like 3 and 5 best, but would rate them lower than a handful (or more) of piano concertos, two horn concertos, the oboe concerto and best of all the clarinet concerto. I have the 3d and 5th combined on a CD by Perlman and Levine on DG.


I tend to agree with most of this, though I haven't worked out which violin concerto I like best. I love the clarinet concerto, but I have a sneaking preference for the clarinet quintet. That's probably because my big passion is chamber (and solo) music.


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## Laraine Anne Barker (8 mo ago)

Pyotr said:


> 1, 2 & 3 - Itzhak Perlman with James Levine and Wiener Philharmoniker
> 4 – Jascha Heifetz
> 5 – Armin Jordan with Lausanne Chamber Orchestra
> They are what got me into CM. Still play them today. 1 & 2 are wonderful.


I no longer play LPs. I sold my collection on TradeMe (for not a lot more than 50c per disc). The price demonstrates the joys of living in a very small philistine country. But the last thing I wanted was for them to land up at the dump after my death. They deserved better even if I'd lost interest in them. I didn't have many; 800-850.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> This is my favourite Mozart orchestral work. I seem to have three recordings (most unusual for me; I seldom manage more than one on account of cost). They are (in no particular order):
> Stephanie and Roger Chase, Hanover Band Roy Goodman
> Vilde Frang and Jonathan Cohen, Arcangelo
> Thomas Zehetmair Ruth Killius; Orchestra of the 18th Century, Franz Brüggen
> I don't buy recordings by dead musicians. I prefer to support living ones. I like them better anyway.


But what if the dead ones have a better vision and execution of the piece than the living ones? Maybe selfish but it’s about my listening experience and if the living ones actually are better than the dead ones then I’ll support them. For example in violin concertos I wouldn’t choose a living soloist over Heifetz


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## Laraine Anne Barker (8 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> But what if the dead ones have a better vision and execution of the piece than the living ones? Maybe selfish but it’s about my listening experience and if the living ones actually are better than the dead ones then I’ll support them. For example in violin concertos I wouldn’t choose a living soloist over Heifetz


Oh how I'd love my late friend Walter to talk about Heifetz v today's best violinists. Walter played the violin and got good enough to join a professional orchestra but wisely chose to be an accountant. Heifetz was his idol, but I'm pretty sure before he died he preferred today's musicians. He even wondered once if they're better than yesteryear's greats. It's at least two years since he died but I still miss him because he was the only musical friend I ever had.We never met, except on Skype. It's about my listening experience too, and when I listen to the greats of yesteryear I often find myself muttering, "Oh, for goodness' sake stay on the note!" That's how much constant vibrato can get to my ears these days. My Dad took a few violin lessons when he was an adult and I wish he had continued. My parents both had a modicum of talent —my mother good enough at the piano to have her teacher offer to teach her free, but Mum was too proud to accept. Silly woman. No teacher, even if she enjoys teaching, would offer free lessons to someone who showed no talent. Kreisler was Dad's idol, incidentally, but I think that was because he was Dad's teacher's idol. Dad knew very little about classical music.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> Oh how I'd love my late friend Walter to talk about Heifetz v today's best violinists. Walter played the violin and got good enough to join a professional orchestra but wisely chose to be an accountant. Heifetz was his idol, but I'm pretty sure before he died he preferred today's musicians. He even wondered once if they're better than yesteryear's greats. It's at least two years since he died but I still miss him because he was the only musical friend I ever had.We never met, except on Skype. It's about my listening experience too, and when I listen to the greats of yesteryear I often find myself muttering, "Oh, for goodness' sake stay on the note!" That's how much constant vibrato can get to my ears these days. My Dad took a few violin lessons when he was an adult and I wish he had continued. My parents both had a modicum of talent —my mother good enough at the piano to have her teacher offer to teach her free, but Mum was too proud to accept. Silly woman. No teacher, even if she enjoys teaching, would offer free lessons to someone who showed no talent. Kreisler was Dad's idol, incidentally, but I think that was because he was Dad's teacher's idol. Dad knew very little about classical music.


All right so you don’t like wide and often use of vibrato. Heifetz was an example. If you can cite me an account of Schubert’s 8th symphony that is better than Kleiber I’ll eat my hat. Of course it’s all subjective so we won’t get anywhere but I’m interested if there’s a very good modern recording of the piece that you know


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## Laraine Anne Barker (8 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> All right so you don’t like wide and often use of vibrato. Heifetz was an example. If you can cite me an account of Schubert’s 8th symphony that is better than Kleiber I’ll eat my hat. Of course it’s all subjective so we won’t get anywhere but I’m interested if there’s a very good modern recording of the piece that you know


Sorry, but I don't know any very good modern recording. The only Schubert in my collection consists of solo piano and chamber music.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> Sorry, but I don't know any very good modern recording. The only Schubert in my collection consists of solo piano and chamber music.


You should really buy one, they’re amazing symphonies, and the 8th and 9th especially. But there’s just too many legendary players and conductors to ignore, I can name 50


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## Laraine Anne Barker (8 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> You should really buy one, they’re amazing symphonies, and the 8th and 9th especially. But there’s just too many legendary players and conductors to ignore, I can name 50


Thanks but I'm busy chasing renaissance English composers at the moment. It's not easy on a low income (what the New Zealand government fondly calls superannuation, a euphemism for what was once called old age pension) and I'm often reduced to buying downloads, which I hate if the booklet isn't included. I'm also becoming acquainted with "the great Weiss" (not my description; it was Wilhelmina of Baireuth, a sister of Frederick the Great, who penned it). I have a few of Robert Barto's recordings and I bought a download of Michel Cardin's complete set, which was cheaper than chasing all of the Barto CDs.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> Thanks but I'm busy chasing renaissance English composers at the moment. It's not easy on a low income (what the New Zealand government fondly calls superannuation, a euphemism for what was once called old age pension) and I'm often reduced to buying downloads, which I hate if the booklet isn't included. I'm also becoming acquainted with "the great Weiss" (not my description; it was Wilhelmina of Baireuth, a sister of Frederick the Great, who penned it). I have a few of Robert Barto's recordings and I bought a download of Michel Cardin's complete set, which was cheaper than chasing all of the Barto CDs.


If you have time you can always listen for free on YouTube!


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## Laraine Anne Barker (8 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> If you have time you can always listen for free on YouTube!


Thanks, Eva. I do that when I have time. That's how I've found many new musicians to chase on CD. However, a computer is not a good thing to listen on. I prefer my hi fi, even though most of it dates from 1976. My CD player can play from external drives but I can never get it to find what I want. After "A Celebration for Harp" it skips to Bach. So what's happened to Abel's Drexel Manuscript? I ask. Abel comes before Bach in alphabetical order. At the moment I'm not getting time for music at all. A car accident leaving my husband unable to keep his driver's licence (he blacked out at the wheel; a sort of mini-stroke that damaged his left peripheral vision) is forcing us to sell and go into a retirement village, where we have to take an apartment though we would rather have a cottage (what the village quaintly calls villas). I feel more like an 87-year-old than 77.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Laraine Anne Barker said:


> Thanks, Eva. I do that when I have time. That's how I've found many new musicians to chase on CD. However, a computer is not a good thing to listen on. I prefer my hi fi, even though most of it dates from 1976. My CD player can play from external drives but I can never get it to find what I want. After "A Celebration for Harp" it skips to Bach. So what's happened to Abel's Drexel Manuscript? I ask. Abel comes before Bach in alphabetical order. At the moment I'm not getting time for music at all. A car accident leaving my husband unable to keep his driver's licence (he blacked out at the wheel; a sort of mini-stroke that damaged his left peripheral vision) is forcing us to sell and go into a retirement village, where we have to take an apartment though we would rather have a cottage (what the village quaintly calls villas). I feel more like an 87-year-old than 77.


I’m really sorry for that, I would understand that music is not the highest priority for you


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

EvaBaron said:


> All right so you don’t like wide and often use of vibrato. Heifetz was an example. If you can cite me an account of Schubert’s 8th symphony that is better than Kleiber I’ll eat my hat. Of course it’s all subjective so we won’t get anywhere but I’m interested if there’s a very good modern recording of the piece that you know


weirdly enough i really liked the HIP Zinman one. the quick tempo makes the lyrical section seem almost like a dance where the bottom falls out into the abyss, which is an interesting take on the piece


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

fbjim said:


> weirdly enough i really liked the HIP Zinman one. the quick tempo makes the lyrical section seem almost like a dance where the bottom falls out into the abyss, which is an interesting take on the piece


All right I’ll check it out


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## Laraine Anne Barker (8 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> I’m really sorry for that, I would understand that music is not the highest priority for you


Thanks, Eva. I'd like nothing more than to be able to drag my speakers out and sit down and listen. Unfortunately, going into a retirement village is something that comes to everybody who lives long enough. The only alternative is usually landing up living in squalor because you're determined nobody is going to "dump you in a home". I've seen that happen. The people who have to clean up need protection against the stench. The village we have chosen also has hospital facilities as well as the "home" and the cottages, and we already know somebody who lives there.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Bulldog said:


> The Violin Concertos get a bad rap, but I've always enjoyed them greatly. Nos. 3 and 5 are especially rewarding. As for recordings, Lin/Salonen are super. My favorite recording comes from Viktoria Mullova on period violin with cadenzas by Ottavio Dantone.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

I guess the WA violin concertos are up against a lot of competition and that is why there are not appreciated to their true valor. WA also wrote so may masterpieces in other categories. But i love Bulldog's choice of the third and the fifth. Eva makes a safe bet by adoring my compatriot's AG's versions which are eternal. Lin/Salonen are terrific and i would add Faust/Antonini and Hilde Frang who only recorded the first and the fifth to my knowledge.


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## Laraine Anne Barker (8 mo ago)

I have Vilde Frang with Maxim Rysanov and Arcangelo/Jonathan Cohen in the 1st and 5th along with the Sinfonia Concertante (which is what I bought the CD for). I can't find her playing any of the other concertos. On LP I had the Oistrakhs, which I'm afraid I can't listen to now. But it was my first stereo LP and I was blown away by the famous "Decca sound", even though at that time I had only a Philips stereogram to play my music on. I consider we are very lucky today—so many wonderful musicians, many of them still very young, and so much more music to explore than in the days of the LP.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

larold said:


> I have always preferred No. 4. My favorite performances are Hillary Hahn on a BBC recording (she also made a commercial recording) and Itzhak Perlman's with the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra for the rubato in the final movement


Let's not forget that slow movement.



Kreisler jr said:


> it seems a bit odd that he wrote as many or more violin concerti in Salzburg


Sure, it's odd. I'm not sure; maybe because Haydn was doing it (MH36, MH52, MH207, and the archbishop wanted them to)? Incidentally, he wrote his final one in Salzburg, 1774, around the time Mozart wrote his five.
Btw, when I listen to these sections- (timestamped in the videos)













I'm inclined to agree with David Wyn Jones's assessment that he has "a real sense of theatre (in the broadest sense) that is reflected in Mozart’s music".


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