# I'm looking for a heavier and darker classical music



## trogdor1134

I'm looking for some heavy cello, or ominous violin, or even some trumpet if it creates the mood correctly. Is there any songs or artists that you would lead me to, possibly a specific time period where this was common? With or without vocals is fine.

Thank you all for your help.


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## mueske

Heavy cello

Elgar - cello concerto (late romantic)
Dvorak - cello concerto (middle/late romantic)
Shostakovich - cello concerto 1/2 (modernistic)
Rachmaninoff - cello sonata (late romantic)

Ominous violin

Shostakovich - Violin concerto 1/2 (modernistic)

Can't really think of anything else, despite this being a rather easy request. For the violin I'd definitely start looking in more modern works starting from about the 1900's or so.


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## Guest

Bach's Cello Suites can at times be heavier - particularly the 5th Suite. 

Elgar's Cello Concerto is a great recommendation. 

Naturally the cello is going to have a heavier, deeper tone by its nature. Finding a "heavier" and "darker" violin piece might be tougher.

Try Shostakovitch. He has violin and cello concertos that might be what you are looking for. For heavier, and darker, as you mentioned, in general it will be the romantic period. More than likely late romantic.


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## Lukecash12

Roslavets is very heavy and dark sometimes: 




Here is my play list of him: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=E924CDC785F08BBB

There are plenty of piano trios, and other pieces that involve the violin, as well as a great chamber symphony.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Check out Zoltan Kodaly's cello works... with Janos Starker, preferably.


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## Andy Loochazee

I wonder why new people don't try the search facility for requests like this. I dug up very quickly the following threads by searching on the words "dark" and "intense". They seem to offer quite a lot of potentially useful suggestions:

http://www.talkclassical.com/7113-request-complete-newbie-dark.html?highlight=dark

http://www.talkclassical.com/2109-id-like-recommendations-dramatic.html?highlight=dark

http://www.talkclassical.com/1430-bleak-dark-evil-music.html?highlight=dark

http://www.talkclassical.com/2074-dark-classical.html?highlight=dark

http://www.talkclassical.com/4633-most-powerful-epic-angry.html


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## Fsharpmajor

You might check out Alfred Schnittke's Cello Concerto No. 2:

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## Head_case

Since when did classical music ever fit the category of 'music for emos'?


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## Aramis

Head_case said:


> Since when did classical music ever fit the category of 'music for emos'?


since middle and late XIXth century


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## Head_case

Lol. Nuns and monks weren't emos. Maybe emos aspire to be nones and munks though?


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## Il Seraglio

Head_case said:


> Lol. Nuns and monks weren't emos. Maybe emos aspire to be nones and munks though?


Schubert, Schumann, Hugo Wolf and Mahler were all very emo.


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## Head_case

Noooooooooo!!! 


Just Mahler 

And Mussorgsky.


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## Lukecash12

Head_case said:


> Noooooooooo!!!
> 
> Just Mahler
> 
> And Mussorgsky.


Tchaikovsky, Alkan, *definitely* Chopin, Feinberg, Lyapunov, Lyatoshynsky, Henselt, Britten, definitely Granados: 



 Korngold, Schnittke, Satie, Dohnanyi, Kalkbrenner, Faure, Catoire, Janacek, Sibelius, Wagner, Bruckner, Bortkiewicz, Scharwenka, the list goes on and on...


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## Head_case

If this list goes on any longer, I'm going to slit my wrists


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## Aramis

Why Wagner? He was quite opposite to emo. 

Why "definitely" Chopin? A lot of composers deserve this title much more.

Why Bruckner? He was too boring to be extremely silly (read: emo). 

Why Faure?

Schumman was the hugest emo. Who was trying to kill himself as frequently as he did?


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## Il Seraglio

It seems strange in hindsight. The C20th was a far more depressing century than the 19th.


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## Il Seraglio

Aramis said:


> Why Wagner? He was quite opposite to emo.


He followed a very depressing, pessimistic philosophy. That of Schopenhauer.


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## Head_case

> Schumman was the hugest emo. Who was trying to kill himself as frequently as he did?


well someone had to do it


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## Head_case

Il Seraglio said:


> He followed a very depressing, pessimistic philosophy. That of Schopenhauer.


Schopenhauer wasn't depressing! 

I like his mix of Freudian pantheism à l'existentialisme


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## Il Seraglio

Head_case said:


> Schopenhauer wasn't depressing!


He basically believed that the essence of life was pain and misery, that pleasure was, by definition the absence of suffering and that we were all better off dead. Not exactly cheerful.


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## Head_case

> 1). He basically believed that the essence of life was pain and misery, 2). that pleasure was, by definition the absence of suffering and 3). that we were all better off dead. Not exactly cheerful.


Why is that depressing? 1). is his premise; 2). is his succedaneum 3). is realistic! It happens to all of us!

Smile! Be happy


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## Aramis

Il Seraglio said:


> It seems strange in hindsight. The C20th was a far more depressing century than the 19th.


Keep in mind one thing - romantic sufferings were very often imagined and invented by composers with romantic personalities, while 20th century "depressing" music by such as Shostakovich was caused by real horror, impossible to imagine by modern/western people.


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## Aramis

> He followed a very depressing, pessimistic philosophy. That of Schopenhauer


That's another thing - he, as a person, was very strong and hard to beat, so he could not be emo.


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## Il Seraglio

Aramis said:


> Keep in mind one thing - romantic sufferings were very often imagined and invented by composers with romantic personalities, while 20th century "depressing" music by such as Shostakovich was caused by real horror, impossible to imagine by modern/western people.


Yeah, I think tbis is all worth bearing in mind. I don't think Shotakovich would have made a good romantic though. He was very task-focused and obsessive compulsive as opposed to self-destructive, chaotic and depressed.


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## Michael433

For very dark sounding cello music how about Steven Isserlis playing Schumann on Hyperion CDA67661. I was surprised at how dark and introspective this music is (bearing in mind that Schumann's Cello Concerto is quite a jolly piece).


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## Dim7

Mahler is more bipolar than exclusively emo. Shostakovich is more pure emo.


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## Marc

Is 'dark' and 'heavy' music necessarily the same as 'romantic', 'emo' or 'depressive'?

For instance: I get the shivers from some Bach organ chorales of his third Clavier-Übung, like BWV 671 (Kyrie, Gott heiliger Geist) and 686 (Aus tiefer Not schrei ich zu dir). Or from the opening choir of his _Johannes-Passion_, BWV 245. Not to mention the tenor arias of that same piece. Or what about the bass/chorus aria "Eilt, ihr angefocht'nen Seelen"? Or the contralto aria "Ich will auch mit gebroch'nen Augen" from Cantata BWV 125 (Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin)?
Et cetera.

Is Mozart's "Dies Irae" (Requiem, KV 626) less shivering than the same Sequens by Verdi, just because Mozart 'only' wrote 18th century Enlightenment music, and Verdi is a 'real' romantic 19th century composer?
Personally, I would think not.

Or even earlier music: there are also some deep digging choral pieces composed by Josquin Desprez and Roland Lassus (Orlando di Lasso), to name but a few.

To me, these composers and their works have more emotional impact than loads of 'emo' music that has been composed from the 19th century up to today. I experience lots of 19th century music as a somehow overexposed bunch of notes, mainly written down to deliberately 'move' the listener. Of course, this is all generally speaking, and only my subjective opinion. 
But still ..... in many cases _plain music_ can move and touch me in a much deeper way than many of those 'emo' compositions.


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## Lukecash12

Aramis said:


> Why Wagner? He was quite opposite to emo.
> 
> Why "definitely" Chopin? A lot of composers deserve this title much more.
> 
> Why Bruckner? He was too boring to be extremely silly (read: emo).
> 
> Why Faure?
> 
> Schumman was the hugest emo. Who was trying to kill himself as frequently as he did?


I wasn't exactly trying to come up with a scholar's conclusion, but you are right. That was basically off the top of my head.


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## Polednice

I know that this is only a light-hearted thread, but I find it quite jarring to read about extreme psychological disorders such as Schumann's being referred to as an 'emo' personality. 'Emos', by their very desire to be identified with a social group and image, don't know suffering any more than most people. Schumann suffered an immense pain that most people cannot imagine. There was a comment about the 20th century featuring real terrors that we cannot empathise with today; well, while Schumann might not have had those kinds of events surrounding him physically, imagine an emotional equivalent of the indescribable horrors of the 20th century playing out in his mind, and then you might begin to understand what depression really is.


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## Head_case

Aramis said:


> Keep in mind one thing - romantic sufferings were very often imagined and invented by composers with romantic personalities, while 20th century "depressing" music by such as Shostakovich was caused by real horror, impossible to imagine by modern/western people.


Imagined sufferings....were as real for the romantics, as the externalising and structural conflicts of the modern 20th century composer's community no?

Polednice ~ type in epidemiological research on suicide rates and emos in google, and you'll find that there is a 'real' and objective suffering associated with being an 'emo'. One of their greatest existential conflicts, is that they don't believe that society listens to them or believe that they are suffering.

Lol. The irony of it it all  Although it's kind of sad tragic. We're doing it here too


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## Aramis

> Imagined sufferings....were as real for the romantics, as the externalising and structural conflicts of the modern 20th century composer's community no?


Yyyy... I don't think you can compare man that walks in the night and gazes upon the stars thinking about the woman he hardly even knows to a man that sees people getting murdered on the streets, strangely "disappearing" all the time and wonders when the guy responsible for massive extermination of milions of people will sign a little document that will make him "disappear" as well.


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## Head_case

Aramis said:


> Yyyy... I don't *think* you can compare man that walks in the night and gazes upon the stars thinking about the woman he hardly even knows to a man that sees people getting murdered on the streets, strangely "disappearing" all the time and wonders when the guy responsible for massive extermination of milions of people will sign a little document that will make him "disappear" as well.


Sure......however your view, kind of validates the romantic ethos in itself. It's what you 'think'....which constructs internal reality. The fact that there is suffering happening out there....has to be 'thought of', in order to be known. The romantic precept, is as near a form of idealism as we can grasp.

I'm not saying they're right btw. I don't really llke romantic music, and prefer 20th century music btw


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## Polednice

Head_case said:


> Polednice ~ type in epidemiological research on suicide rates and emos in google, and you'll find that there is a 'real' and objective suffering associated with being an 'emo'. One of their greatest existential conflicts, is that they don't believe that society listens to them or believe that they are suffering.


Not being exactly 'with it' as far as colloquial terms are concerned, I assumed that 'emo' is used solely to refer to an easily identifiable group of people who are recognised by their taste in music, their clothes and their general attitude. If people in this social class also happen to fall within the bounds of a mental illness, then we shouldn't consider that illness as a characteristic of being an emo - they are an 'emo' _with_ depression, in other words; not they are depressed _because_ they are an 'emo'.

As for this view of what 'upset' the stereotypical Romantic, they didn't suffer because of some unrequited love that you might find described in a trivial Wordsworth poem. The depression of the 19th century - due to it being a psychological and neurological condition - was little different to the depression of today, and years spent trying to explain the magnitude of the condition and remove its stigma should not go unnoticed. After all, Schumann wanted to commit _suicide_. Is that a trivial desire of a typical Romantic? To actually seek to end your life because you feel that the reality conjured by your malfunctioning brain is a living hell?


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## Lukecash12

Polednice said:


> Not being exactly 'with it' as far as colloquial terms are concerned, I assumed that 'emo' is used solely to refer to an easily identifiable group of people who are recognised by their taste in music, their clothes and their general attitude. If people in this social class also happen to fall within the bounds of a mental illness, then we shouldn't consider that illness as a characteristic of being an emo - they are an 'emo' _with_ depression, in other words; not they are depressed _because_ they are an 'emo'.
> 
> As for this view of what 'upset' the stereotypical Romantic, they didn't suffer because of some unrequited love that you might find described in a trivial Wordsworth poem. The depression of the 19th century - due to it being a psychological and neurological condition - was little different to the depression of today, and years spent trying to explain the magnitude of the condition and remove its stigma should not go unnoticed. After all, Schumann wanted to commit _suicide_. Is that a trivial desire of a typical Romantic? To actually seek to end your life because you feel that the reality conjured by your malfunctioning brain is a living hell?


Depression is often defined by a lack of perspective. Any and every time it comes up, we find that we simply aren't comprehending the scope and purpose of the situation. Therefore, it is impossible to find an all cure. There are simply those who hunger perspective, reasoning, evidence, and they make their judgment after everything is disclosed. And then there are those who gratify their needs instantly with self absorption and depression.

This trait has always arisen in a prevalent (if not vast) percentage of people, so no period in time can be determined as the worst culprit, and it certainly will not stop any time soon. The only thing everyone can learn from history is that we do not learn.

I personally don't think this can be seen as a mental illness. It seems that in our diagnosing as _self-appointed_ experts, that nowadays we have a hard time drawing the line between actual illnesses that are medical and can be cured medically (and consistently with the same cure), and problems that can only be academically categorized as syndromes.


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## Head_case

Polednice said:


> Not being exactly 'with it' as far as colloquial terms are concerned, I assumed that 'emo' is used solely to refer to an easily identifiable group of people who are recognised by their taste in music, their clothes and their general attitude. If people in this social class also happen to fall within the bounds of a mental illness, then we shouldn't consider that illness as a characteristic of being an emo - they are an 'emo' _with_ depression, in other words; not they are depressed _because_ they are an 'emo'.


'Emo' ~ from the term 'to emote'. Or wear your heart on your sleeve. Even if that includes slitting your wrists.

It's not so much that emos fall into the bounds of mental illness; that would be a rather pejorative view of young people who have yet to find some way to deal with the adult intensity of existential experience, yet without the cognitive or social means.

No one here intended to characterise emos' as being universally ill; the epidemiological data only links the rise of suicide rates and deliberate self-harm with this sub-culture. An 'epidemiological link' is not the same as forming a characteristic, or defining trait.

Like any sub-culture, it is time and location specific; retrospectively imputing that 'Schumann was an emo' is fun, but we all know there's no real substance to such a jocular statement. 

I'm not sure the 'depression of the 19th century' is something which translates very well to our modern era. It seems that English is not refined enough, to differentiate between existential despair; depression; clinical depression; or the romantic 'depression', without expansion often referred to as 'verbiage'


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## Polednice

Head_case said:


> Like any sub-culture, it is time and location specific; retrospectively imputing that 'Schumann was an emo' is fun, but we all know there's no real substance to such a jocular statement.


I recognise the above (I think I mentioned so earler), so I'm not trying to condemn any of this discussion 

All the same, I just wanted to speak out against this view of clinical depression vs. some prejudiced take on 'romantic depression'. In the case of Schumann at the very least, he no doubt suffered clinical depression (or more probably bipolar disorder) because of his suicide attempts. That underlined word is really important! It's not just some artistic temperament, it's a severe mental inability to cope with life itself. Depression certainly is a medical condition, which is why medications such as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors exist, because the condition is largely understood as the poor functioning of synapses in the brain, leading to serotonin (and other neurotransmitters) levels that are much smaller than in 'normally' functioning humans. It's not a simple case of self-absorption, though that is true for many people; it's a devastating clinical condition and while I understand the light-hearted tone of this thread, I didn't want it to be trivialised with the assumption that it can be reduced to a Wordsworthian fancy


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## Lukecash12

Polednice said:


> I recognise the above (I think I mentioned so earler), so I'm not trying to condemn any of this discussion
> 
> All the same, I just wanted to speak out against this view of clinical depression vs. some prejudiced take on 'romantic depression'. In the case of Schumann at the very least, he no doubt suffered clinical depression (or more probably bipolar disorder) because of his suicide attempts. That underlined word is really important! It's not just some artistic temperament, it's a severe mental inability to cope with life itself. Depression certainly is a medical condition, which is why medications such as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors exist, because the condition is largely understood as the poor functioning of synapses in the brain, leading to serotonin (and other neurotransmitters) levels that are much smaller than in 'normally' functioning humans. It's not a simple case of self-absorption, though that is true for many people; it's a devastating clinical condition and while I understand the light-hearted tone of this thread, I didn't want it to be trivialised with the assumption that it can be reduced to a Wordsworthian fancy


Right you are. But on the other hand, that is a rather rare diagnosis (as I'm sure you're aware), and most depression actually can be trivialized, because it is indeed trivial. And even if it is an illness, it's normally one that jumps out at people because they have been conditioned into self absorption, otherwise, I can well imagine that an active mind, and strong disposition to logic can be one of the strongest cures for low levels of serotonin. And that is a medical fact, if I remember right (correct me if I'm just blowing smoke, please).


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## Polednice

Lukecash12 said:


> But on the other hand, that is a rather rare diagnosis (as I'm sure you're aware), and most depression actually can be trivialized, because it is indeed trivial.


I suppose so - that's where we enter the difficult (and tedious!) world of semantics. In an ideal world, any 'depression' that can be trivialised shouldn't really be called 'depression'; the word being reserved for the actual condition. Unfortunately, it has entered the language as a synonym for 'sad' or 'unhappy' in the most dull circumstances, so people often talk at cross-purposes. So I see what you mean.



Lukecash12 said:


> And even if it is an illness, it's normally one that jumps out at people because they have been conditioned into self absorption, otherwise, I can well imagine that an active mind, and strong disposition to logic can be one of the strongest cures for low levels of serotonin. And that is a medical fact, if I remember right (correct me if I'm just blowing smoke, please).


That's certainly true - in fact, that's the very basis of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, which is one of the most effective long-term methods of treating the condition


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## Head_case

Off-topic! You guys are going off in a fugue!


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## Lukecash12

Head_case said:


> Off-topic! You guys are going off in a fugue!


Every head-scratcher ends in a lengthy conversation about clinical depression. It's just the natural order


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## Lukecash12

Polednice said:


> I suppose so - that's where we enter the difficult (and tedious!) world of semantics. In an ideal world, any 'depression' that can be trivialised shouldn't really be called 'depression'; the word being reserved for the actual condition. Unfortunately, it has entered the language as a synonym for 'sad' or 'unhappy' in the most dull circumstances, so people often talk at cross-purposes. So I see what you mean.
> 
> That's certainly true - in fact, that's the very basis of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, which is one of the most effective long-term methods of treating the condition


Thanks for the information. I should have known that, what with my loving disposition towards psychology. It's good to be able to "put a name to face" now.


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## scytheavatar

Aramis said:


> Why Wagner? He was quite opposite to emo.


Have you heard Tristan und Isolde? Throughout that opera Tristan and Isolde were singing about wanting to die. It has got to be the most emo thing ever made in the history of mankind.

The overture is already probably more emo than any of the music mentioned so far.


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## Aramis

scytheavatar said:


> Have you heard Tristan und Isolde? Throughout that opera Tristan and Isolde were singing about wanting to die. It has got to be the most emo thing ever made in the history of mankind.
> 
> The overture is already probably more emo than any of the music mentioned so far.


Yes, actually it's my fav Wagner opera.

Theme may seem "emo", but the music isn't depressing at all. It's full of passion and desire, brings erection to every healthy man.

Besides, I was thinking more about composers, not their works.


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## Tapkaara

Another one of these threads?


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## hankz

Try the Alpensymphonie by Richard Strauss.

And... all 9 Symphonies of Mahler. Especially the #6, sometimes referred to as a Tragic.


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## Ezio Auditore

Villian city's orchestra makes best performances of heavy classic music


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## Chronochromie

Ezio Auditore said:


> Villian city's orchestra makes best performances of heavy classic music


What are you doing here? Don't you have Templars to kill?


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## MoonlightSonata

Aww, I'm too late. I was going to say Elgar's Cello Concerto but it seems that everyone else got here first. I'll just suggest Mozart's Fortieth Symphony instead, and the Kyrie from his unfinished Requiem.


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## Albert7

Wagner's Gotterdamnerung should be pretty heavy listening for you. And dark too.


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## hpowders

Bach's Cello Suites Nos. 2 and 5. Heavy, dark, sad in the sarabandes. Used at many important funerals.


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## MoonlightSonata

There's the Marche Funebre from a Chopin sonata, the one in B flat minor or whatever. I think that's well-known too.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Haydn - Sturm und Drang symphonies - 44, 49, 45, 52, 26; Mass in D minor, 'Nelson Mass' (especially the Kyrie); The Seven Last Words; Stabat Mater

Mozart: Symphony No. 25 in G minor, Symphony No. 40 in G minor; Requiem in D minor

Beethoven: Symphony No. 2 in D Major, 1st movement; Symphony No. 5 in C minor, 1st movement; Symphony No. 9 in D minor - 1st movement; Symphony No. 3 in E-Flat Major, 'Eroica' - 2nd & 4th movements

Schubert: Symphony No. 4 in C minor, 'Tragic'; Symphony No. 8 in B minor, 'Unfinished' - 1st movement.

Vivaldi: Four Seasons - Summer - 1st & 3rd movements; Winter - 1st movement

Telemann and Bach, in their concertos, also have a number of slower movements which fit this category - for eg. the Grave from Telemann's Recorder and Bassoon Concerto in F Major.


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## Ingélou

J-F Rebel, Chaos and the Elements
H.I.F. Biber - Battalia
Diego Ortiz - Recercadas del Tratado de Glosas ( 1533 )


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## Mandryka

Khachaturian, Symphony 2.
Honneger, Symphonie Liturgique


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## MoonlightSonata

The third movement of Beethoven's C# minor sonata, the "Moonlight", the first movement is also quite dark.


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## DiesIraeCX

I know we have different meanings for words like "heavy" and "dark", but the main composer that comes to mind is Schubert. Perhaps "haunting" would be a better word, which would make sense since he was the "death-obsessed" composer.

Symphony #8 comes to mind, the late String Quartets, and the 2nd Mvt of the String Quintet (some of the most inspired music I've ever heard).

The 1st and 2nd Mvts of Bruckner symphony #9.

Lastly, the 1st Mvt of both Beethoven's 5th and 9th could perhaps fall under the "terrifying" category. They still give me chills. 

Tchaikovsky's 6th

Mahler's 6th


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## scratchgolf

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I know we have different meanings for words like "heavy" and "dark", but the main composer that comes to mind is Schubert. Perhaps "haunting" would be a better word, which would make sense since he was the "death-obsessed" composer.
> 
> Symphony #8 comes to mind, the late String Quartets, and the 2nd Mvt of the String Quintet (some of the most inspired music I've ever heard).
> 
> The 1st and 2nd Mvts of Bruckner symphony #9.
> 
> Lastly, the 1st Mvt of both Beethoven's 5th and 9th could perhaps fall under the "terrifying" category. They still give me chills.
> 
> Tchaikovsky's 6th
> 
> Mahler's 6th


You sir have remarkable taste in music. You remind me of a smarter version of myself.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Generally, the minor key is where the 'darker' pieces are. 

Other notable mentions:

Johannes Brahms - Symphony No. 1 in C minor, 1st movement; Symphony No. 4 in E minor, 1st & 4th movements
Tchaikovsky - 4th & 6th symphonies, 1st movements; the Introduction to his 5th symphony.

Antonin Dvorak - Symphony No. 7, 1st movement; Symphony No. 5, 4th movement.

Michael Haydn - Requiem in C minor (the beginning here is excellent)

Joseph Haydn - there are a number of 'darker' movements in Haydn's masses - for eg. the 'Et incarnatus est' from the Mass in Time of War

The Overture to Haydn's 'Seasons' is also quite dark, as is 'Und Gott schuf große Walfische' or the aria 'Rollend in schäumenden Wellen' from The Creation.

Pergolesi - Stabat Mater

J. S. Bach - Toccata and Fugue in D minor, or the Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor


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