# California!



## KenOC

California - yes, it's the land of fruits and nuts, no denying that! But it's also a huge state where you can spend years exploring all there is to see. 800 miles north to south, and west to east encompassing the nation's best beaches and tallest mountains. If it were an independent country, it would be the world's sixth-largest economy.

The slide show referenced below only begins to show the sights and doesn't include the gold country, the spectacular north coast, the massive system of canals and pumping stations that move water from where it is to where it isn't, the Salton Sea and its hot mud baths, or a hundred other interesting things. You can spend years here and not run out of things to see and do. See ya!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/tr...ons-are-unmissable/ss-BBLpRGe?ocid=spartanntp


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## Strange Magic

^^^^You're right, so many sights not included! Dante's View in Death Valley, Lassen Peak, Mono Lake and the Mono Craters, Point Lobos covered with flowers, and the Big Sur coastline....


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## Manxfeeder

It's funny that I lived there until 1990 and didn't see a lot of that.


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## senza sordino

I've seen quite a bit of California, and there's still more to see. Here are a few photos from my online gallery of photos.

Big Sur









Golden Gate Bridge









Yosemite and El Capitan 









Half Dome at sunset, Yosemite


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## senza sordino

Walt Disney Concert Hall, downtown LA









Redwoods









Sacramento River in Sacramento


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## ldiat

and the little town i live in films movies and TV shows! and i do mean little! how little ldiat? one needs a P.O. box.


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## KenOC

ldiat said:


> and the little town i live in films movies and TV shows! and i do mean little! how little ldiat? one needs a P.O. box.


Lots to see in the picturesque country around Piru, Idiat's home! Great for motorcycling or just driving. Take Hwy 126 (Telegraph Road) west from the I-5 just north of Six Flags/Magic Mountain. This road goes through a beautiful farming valley to the Ventura coast. You soon pass the Piru turnoff. Keep going a few miles further and at the small town of Santa Paula turn north onto a little-known road that takes you to Ojai the back way (a beautiful drive in itself).

You're now in country that's pretty much wilderness. But soon you're surprised by this: The recently-built Thomas Aquinas College.


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## DaveM

It’s a wonderful state, incredibly diverse. Came here from Canada years ago to finish a final year of a postgraduate degree, met my wife, became an American citizen and never returned.

Unfortunately, being a blue state, our great leader hates it which is one reason we won’t be able to deduct our state taxes and some property taxes for 2018.


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## KenOC

DaveM said:


> Unfortunately, being a blue state, our great leader hates it which is one reason we won't be able to deduct our state taxes and some property taxes for 2018.


I think that's a little unfair. The changes in the tax laws affect all states. In general, the almost-doubled standard deduction will work in favor of lower-income people. The limitation (not elimination) of deductibility of state income and some other taxes, however, works against high-tax states such as California. In effect, low-tax states will subsidize taxpayers in high-tax states to a lesser degree than before.

https://bottomlineinc.com/money/tax-planning/tax-deduction-changes-for-2018


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## senza sordino

You can have your debate about taxes, I'll keep posting my photos of the very diverse state that is California. All of these as of San Francisco, a terrific city. I saw Michael Tilson Thomas conduct Mahler 5 last spring in SF.

F Market Street Car. They run vintage street cars from San Francisco and around the world as part of their transit system. 









on a cable car









Japanese Tea Garden 









Lombard Street, the world's most crooked street 









We were taking the ferry to Sausalito


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## DaveM

KenOC said:


> I think that's a little unfair. The changes in the tax laws affect all states. In general, the almost-doubled standard deduction will work in favor of lower-income people. The limitation (not elimination) of deductibility of state income and some other taxes, however, works against high-tax states such as California. In effect, low-tax states will subsidize the taxes paid in high-tax states to a lesser degree.
> 
> https://bottomlineinc.com/money/tax-planning/tax-deduction-changes-for-2018


Well, I did oversimplify. Specifically, state and local taxes which includes property taxes will be capped at $10,000 which will raise taxes for a lot of people who have itemized in the past. IMO, the new federal tax law is a travesty. The upper 1% of income will make out like bandits and the deficit & debt is going to explode. The premise that an increase of the gdp is going to magically erase the increase of the deficit & debt is a crock. It isn't unfair to imply that our great leader enjoys seeing Californians' unhappiness with these limits on state and local taxes. It's well known that he has no love loss for California.

Think I'll put on some Bruckner to calm me down.


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## KenOC

Here's a nice shot of the west span of the Bay Bridge, connecting San Francisco with Treasure Island. This span was upgraded after the Loma Prieta earthquake in 1989. The east span, connecting Treasure Island with the Berkeley/Oakland area, was severely damaged and replaced entirely. The cost was $6.5 billion, 25 times the original estimate of $250 million.


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## Tristan

Yes, I've lived my whole life in California. I've been to 54 out of 58 counties. I'm an avowed Californiophile. This summer I went to Redwoods National Park, Pinnacles, the Napa Valley, and of course, my favorite place on this planet, Lake Tahoe. I didn't take this photo of the Santa Ynez Valley, but it's one of my favorite pictures of Californian landscape:


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## Kollwitz

Disappointingly little crossover with Tupac's 'California Love': I was expecting more tales of westside players in the state where you'll never find a dance floor empty.

More seriously, I'm very envious. Great landscapes, cities, wine and culture: shame it's probably a long time before I'll be able to visit.


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## Chi_townPhilly

senza sordino said:


> You can have your debate about taxes...


Hear, hear! Probably a good idea to steer away from that angle...

That said, I still retain some 'Califonia Dreamin' in my life (even if I'm too old, and too monogamous, to aspire to a rendezvous with Barbara Ann ). E.g:

1) _Bicycling Magazine_ 'Spring Classic'
2) Heading up the tow-line on Half-Dome at Yosemite (before I'm too old to do it!)
3) Sea Otter Classic (another cyclo-sportive.)
4) A visit to San Simeon.


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## KenOC

And where else can you drive through a tree? On the way to Disneyland from Seattle, 1989.


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## Pyotr

Beautiful place to live, except for the tax thing. But if you don't like it, move here to Florida where the property taxes are low and there is no state income tax, one of seven states that have none. 
The California’s tax system relies heavily on the wealthy for state income, and is super-dependent on the stock market. During the recession(December 2007 – June 2009) , the capital-gains taxes that sustained the state in good times plummeted. Thousands of teachers were laid off , and the state was so cash-strapped it gave out IOUs when it couldn’t pay some of its bills. Times are good now, partly due to our great leader, but it can’t last forever.


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## KenOC

Strange things are found in strange places in California.


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## philoctetes

How I see CA, fom the river and the ocean

















Yes, the platform and barrels are a boat


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## joen_cph

I haven´t been to the US, but if going there on a slightly longer trip, the idea has always been to combine the NY area with California, as "the" main American highlights ...


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## LezLee

My local California:

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1040595





Go to 11.39


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## Strange Magic

joen_cph said:


> I haven´t been to the US, but if going there on a slightly longer trip, the idea has always been to combine the NY area with California, as "the" main American highlights ...


Excellent choices. But I also would urge you to spend serious time on the Colorado Plateau to see world-famous erosional landforms there: Bryce, Zion, Grand canyons, Arches, Canyonlands, plus Mesa Verde, Chaco Canyon, other aboriginal former habitations. And who could skip Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons, a bit to the north? I could go on.....but I won't .


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## DaveM

Strange Magic said:


> Excellent choices. But I also would urge you to spend serious time on the Colorado Plateau to see world-famous erosional landforms there: Bryce, Zion, Grand canyons, Arches, Canyonlands, plus Mesa Verde, Chaco Canyon, other aboriginal former habitations. And who could skip Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons, a bit to the north? I could go on.....but I won't .


One of my fondest memories was a hike in Zion. There had been a recent heavy rain and at one point, my wife and I had to go through water up to our shoulders. Would not attempt that now. But what a beautiful place!


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## KenOC

Strange Magic said:


> Excellent choices. But I also would urge you to spend serious time on the Colorado Plateau to see world-famous erosional landforms there: Bryce, Zion, Grand canyons, Arches, Canyonlands, plus Mesa Verde, Chaco Canyon, other aboriginal former habitations. And who could skip Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons, a bit to the north? I could go on.....but I won't .


All good places. Very good indeed! Here's me and the wife on a long motorcycling trip to Yellowstone in 2003, coming back through many of those places on the return. At Bryce Canyon.


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## KenOC

And before Yellowstone, the Grand Tetons!


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## Strange Magic

As the rancher said about Bryce Canyon: "Hell of a place to lose a cow!" The view of the Tetons is so astonishing that you rub your eyes to make sure they're working right. Same with so many other western vistas and views. My first look out over the Escalante Plateau in southern Utah was another mind-boggler. Sequoias in Yosemite. Redwoods in northern CA. Crater Lake. Mt. Rainier. Dante's View in Death Valley (previously mentioned). More. Seared into my memory.


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## KenOC

Strange Magic said:


> ...Redwoods in northern CA...


Yes, the coast redwoods are a bit…large. Here are my wife and her sisters (and our dogs) in 2011.


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## philoctetes

Strange Magic said:


> Excellent choices. But I also would urge you to spend serious time on the Colorado Plateau to see world-famous erosional landforms there: Bryce, Zion, Grand canyons, Arches, Canyonlands, plus Mesa Verde, Chaco Canyon, other aboriginal former habitations. And who could skip Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons, a bit to the north? I could go on.....but I won't .


Shhh, keep the best places secret...


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## philoctetes

KenOC said:


> And before Yellowstone, the Grand Tetons!


I love that spot, not far from the Snake. That smell of sage will knock you out.


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## KenOC

New slideshow from USA Today: 10 places you need to see when driving the Pacific Coast Highway.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/tr...ific-coast-highway/ar-BBNA1FV?ocid=spartanntp

This one is only a few miles from my home.


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## Blancrocher

senza sordino said:


> Walt Disney Concert Hall, downtown LA


I passed through the city recently and was surprised at how much it has changed in only a few years--LA seems to be gentrifying very fast. In any case, there's a very interesting new contemporary art museum near the symphony now and some nice park space to sit in. And actual grocery stores. And Koreatown is almost unrecognizable.

Still not nearly as pretty as other photos in this thread, though!


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## Blancrocher

Something Unexpected and Weird Is Happening Beneath California's Deadliest Faults

https://gizmodo.com/something-unexpected-and-weird-is-happening-beneath-cal-1829177182


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## KenOC

…and the weather is often quite pleasant here.


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## Blancrocher

KenOC said:


> …and the weather is often quite pleasant here.


I've reported this post ... come on, Ken.


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## Sloe

Tristan said:


> Yes, I've lived my whole life in California. I've been to 54 out of 58 counties. I'm an avowed Californiophile. This summer I went to Redwoods National Park, Pinnacles, the Napa Valley, and of course, my favorite place on this planet, Lake Tahoe. I didn't take this photo of the Santa Ynez Valley, but it's one of my favorite pictures of Californian landscape:


I prefer Tuscany Valley:


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## philoctetes

So much for the raving, now for the ranting. 

This morning the nearby town of Calistoga, known for springs, horse ranches, wine tasting, and expensive resorts, had no power due to a PG&E cautionary shutdown, as a result of all the fires over the last year. This is the new policy, whenever conditions are dry and windy, the power will be shut down. 

The temperature in Calistoga this morning was in the mid 40s. A tourist was interviewed on local news, claiming he paid $500 for a room and had no power or heat. Given each hotel in Calistoga has it's own piped-in hot springs, it could be worse for him. 

Now I see that shutdowns are happening down in KenOC's area due to the dreaded Santa Ana conditions. This all reminds me of the "brownouts" back in the early 2000s that got Arnold Schwarznegger into the governor's office. Lots of other bad stuff is going on here... if you've ever read Samuel Delany's Dhalgren, you might recognize this picture as approaching the real thing... with big elections less than a month away...


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## KenOC

philoctetes said:


> ...Now I see that shutdowns are happening down in KenOC's area due to the dreaded Santa Ana conditions. This all reminds me of the "brownouts" back in the early 2000s that got Arnold Schwarznegger into the governor's office. Lots of other bad stuff is going on here... if you've ever read Samuel Delany's Dhalgren, you might recognize this picture as approaching the real thing... with big elections less than a month away...


??? Very windy the past few hours, and there have been scattered outages due to lines down or shorting, but no policy to interrupt power that I know of. Is there something I missed? 

*Added*: I checked and the precautionary power outages affect a lot more communities than just Calistoga. I think this is a new policy. However all the affected communities are in NorCal, served by PG&E; there's nothing like that happening down here that I can find. See this article:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/t...ounties-due-to-extreme-fire-danger/ar-BBOoj95


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## KenOC

More to add to this story, it seems. Obviously, in fire weather high winds can cause power lines to arc or fall, igniting immediate blazes that spread with lightning speed. Is this the utility's fault? Are lawyers driving the new practice of pre-emptive power interruptions?

"But liability for wildfires has been an increasing concern for the companies and their investors - and consumer groups questioned whether the blackouts were an overstep meant to insulate the utilities.

"Wildfire liability was one of the biggest issues in the State Legislature this year, as questions arose about whether billions of dollars in damage from fires in 2017 alone could lead at least one of the utilities to file for bankruptcy.

"Lawmakers passed a measure that included funding to reduce the risk of fires as well as provisions to keep Pacific Gas and Electric financially afloat. But the bill still left the utilities open to liability.

"The bond ratings of all three of the state's investor-owned utilities were downgraded last month by Moody's Investors Service because of financial risk related to wildfires."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/b...-when-california-fire-risk-is-high/ar-BBOrpp3


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## philoctetes

Good time to revisit this thread now. It's a better place than the AI thread for some of my current thoughts.

I don't quite understand those defending PG&E. Or Sacramento for that matter. Takes a few shuffles of the shell to blame the Fed for everything. USFS land usage and maintenance is governed by state law, only national parks are entirely Fed-governed.

I live in the redwoods. Electrical rates are insane here, and Spare The Air days can be very unkind to wood burning residents this time of year. Typically, dry days are much colder than wet days up here. I recently had discussions about this on our neighborhood website as we had 28 F morning temps the day after the fires broke out which is pretty cold for our building standards. 

PG&E has a low-income program that makes rates affordable but only if usage is kept low. One year I used electrical heaters instead of wood and when my usage tripled they enforced the higher rates, and my bill was $600/month to run two space heaters. I had turn over my tax forms to reinstate myself, and they came to my house to check that I wasn't growing. 

I think maybe they don't hire or train good technicians. Where I live we have outages a lot, and PGE is often poor at restoring them. 2 months after the San Bruno explosion, our voltage doubled to 220/440 on all circuits on the block. I had lightbulbs exploding, breakers flipping, and power caps smoking. The PG&E engineer said he had no idea why it happened, replaced the transformer and drove away. Heck even I can take an educated guess what happened to the transformer. 

I almost forgot to mention that blaming PG&E isn't just scapegoating. Both Santa Rosa and Paradise fires are PG&E-related by admission. The Mercury News reported that a tower was arcing on private property near Paradise and PGE simply didn't fix it in time. Don't know about SoCal but we should always suspect arson as well. Not only are there crazy people but terrorists who would do such a thing. These days, what's the diff?

Who is to be responsible for maintaining "defensible space" around communities? This is actually like deciding which of your kids has to rake the leaves, it's a job nobody wants to do but has to be done. I personally have neighbors who are totally negligent and leave the work around our fence to me. First thing to do is stop pointing fingers and cooperate for a change. To argue that we don't have a forest problem at all is ridiculous, the damages of policy, disease and drought have been accumulating for years. 

There was once a logging industry in California, phased out by enviros and NIMBYs. Logging trucks were common on 299 and now there are few to be found while wineries have taken their place, fouling the water with chemicals and fertilizer. Of course there are issues, but Oregon has maintained safe and successful logging methods especially in the Cascades. Bringing it back to CA would be like raising the Titanic. 

Meanwhile Brown leaves office in disgrace for betraying his enviro contngent, being favorable to new oil and water projects, letting old infrastructure crumble, overprotecting the forest to save $$$, and joining the choir singing about white male privilege.. Gavin, white as a sheet, can't even make a sandwich for himself. 

This morning there is a little dew on my truck. Good sign there is rain on the way, maybe this afternoon...


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## philoctetes

For what it's worth, the oncoming red flag conditions were anticipated. PG&E had warned Nor Cal residents that power shutoffs were likely two days before the fire. The next day they announced that no shutoffs would be necessary. This was the same day that arcing was acknowledged at the tower. The next day is history.

The left hand not coordinating with the right hand, is what we used to call this. I think every home in CA has a "smart meter" now. Yet PGE doesn't seem to be any smarter.


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## philoctetes

To step one foot back in the cyber-AI world, all of us in CA are talking about our warning systems. My local hood has limited phone coverage which is actually a big problem for river visitors who get lost or stranded. I was already ranting at my local supes about upgrades and now with the fires and concerns about alerts they are starting to listen...

There was an NBC report last week about the dropouts in these systems. Santa Barbara has a tech-savvy population with lots of money but they encountered lots of glitches when they tried to integrate alerts across all comm systems. For example, two identical phones that were set up the same way in the same place did not get the same alerts in controlled tests.

Before we go too far with AI and social engineering, maybe we should be able to make these technologies work together for things that really matter.


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## SixFootScowl

I have never been to California and probably never will be. Tried once but two down days with mechanical problems in Golden Colorado killed the possibility of making it to California.


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## philoctetes

Here's one of my favorite "power spots", the bridge across the mouth of the Klamath


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## philoctetes

At the top of Suicide Pass above Caribou Lake in the Trinity Alps


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## philoctetes

And for those who like Utah, the Henry Mountains









My escape from California might just be to Utah...


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## clavichorder

I haven't spent a lot of time in California but I'd like to some day. I took a week long trip to San Francisco a few years ago which was wonderful, and have also been to San Diego and through LA when younger. 

My state it really nice too, and in the same general vicinity. Washington state really packs a punch for it's comparatively smaller size to California.


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## SixFootScowl

Didn't California opt out of the clock-switching nonsense, or did it not get passed? That would be a great reason to move to California.


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## Tristan

Fritz Kobus said:


> Didn't California opt out of the clock-switching nonsense, or did it not get passed? That would be a great reason to move to California.


We passed a bill that will allow us to get out of clock-switching if we want to (either standard time or DST all year long).


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## SixFootScowl

Tristan said:


> We passed a bill that will allow us to get out of clock-switching if we want to (either standard time or DST all year long).


I'd go with DST year round for later sundown and more evening time to enjoy the outdoors.


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## KenOC

Fritz Kobus said:


> I'd go with DST year round for later sundown and more evening time to enjoy the outdoors.


That would be my preference also.


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## philoctetes

Is it possible to feel an earthquake in Alaska all the way down in California? Cause I think that happened to me this morning...

And this

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ake-waves-rippled-around-world-earth-geology/


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## eugeneonagain

DaveM said:


> It's a wonderful state, incredibly diverse. Came here from Canada years ago to finish a final year of a postgraduate degree, met my wife, became an American citizen and never returned.
> 
> Unfortunately, being a blue state, our great leader hates it which is one reason we won't be able to deduct our state taxes and some property taxes for 2018.


You could just pay them.


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## philoctetes

Good tax advice is not free


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## eugeneonagain

philoctetes said:


> Good tax advice is not free


That's right. Crooks charge a fee for advising how to rip off other members of society and society as a whole.


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## KenOC

First reported on the BBC! Just south of us, and over a 3,000 foot pass east of San Juan Capistrano, is Lake Elsinore. Here's a picture I took from the top of the pass looking east, at the lake.










Anyway, the heavy rains this year have brought about a "superbloom", including on the west-facing hillsides just north (left) of Lake Elsinore. Multitudes of California poppies have turned the hills a bright orange. Here's one of the photos in the BBC article.










Here's the article itself with more pictures.

We drove over there today and it was just as advertised - spectacular. The side roads running along the east side of I-15 were crowded with parked cars. Multitudes of people were walking around and hiking up the hillsides, taking pictures where people seldom have reason to go. A beautiful scene running along for several miles.


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## KenOC

More on our rainfall this year in California: A rare but not unprecedented 10-mile long lake has formed in Death Valley.


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## SixFootScowl

KenOC said:


> More on our rainfall this year in California: A rare but not unprecedented 10-mile long lake has formed in Death Valley.


Photo opportunity of perhaps the decade?


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## KenOC

Fritz Kobus said:


> Photo opportunity of perhaps the decade?


If you click through to the article I linked, there's a slideshow.


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## SixFootScowl

KenOC said:


> If you click through to the article I linked, there's a slideshow.


Awesome! I wonder if anyone tried to launch a power boat in it.


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## StrangeHocusPocus

Isn't California near Mexhico


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## science

Mrs. Science and I saw a "superbloom" a couple years ago in Whatchamacallit State Park, there in the south, somewhere between San Diego and Death Valley. Pretty good deal. 

California is the greatest place in the world to live if you have money. I don't have that kind of money.


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## KenOC

Another unusual event here, possibly related to our generous rainfall. Haven't seen this before! They're all over the place.


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## LezLee

It’s a Painted Lady, one of our more common butterflies. Buddleia bushes are covered with them in July/August.
Sorry, posted this before I checked your link:lol:


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## KenOC

The "superbloom" has gotten too much exposure.

"A Southern California town was forced to temporarily ban tourists from visiting a golden poppy "super bloom" after they caused a safety nightmare. Lake Elsinore officials on Sunday closed Walker Canyon, citing a "public safety crisis" as visitors trampled blooms and caused traffic jams.

"The town of 66,000 saw some 50,000 tourists visit en masse in a weekend."

A city employee was struck by a hit-and-run driver, and one tourist was bitten by a rattlesnake. The townspeople just want it all to go away.


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## Guest

Good climbing opportunities in Yosemite:






The less adventurous can always do the PCT.


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## philoctetes

If California is getting too much attention, check out the floods in Nebraska. Pure blue snowmelt, colder. prettier, and though not as deep or powerful, perhaps deadlier and more destructive than the floods in CA a few weeks ago. Nowhere to go.

Here in my flood zone, the weather has turned springlike and visitors are coming to the river even thought the banks and nearby homes are still littered with debris. Unprecedented numbers of SF tech brats who take bus-float-and-trash tours of the river are soon to be the next coming man-made disaster...


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## Guest

Let's not forget the magical town of Davis!


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## Harmonie

My parents and I vacationed there back in a summer when I was in high school. We went to Southern California - LA, Carpinteria, and San Diego. I fondly remember it. I loved the tall skinny palm trees, and the mountains were gorgeous.

It was a great place to visit, but I just don't think I could live there. I need four seasons, and I'm super scared of earthquakes.


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## Tristan

Kontrapunctus said:


> Let's not forget the magical town of Davis!


I love Davis! Didn't think most people had ever heard of it. I may be going to Davis for grad school


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## Guest

Tristan said:


> I love Davis! Didn't think most people had ever heard of it. I may be going to Davis for grad school


I live there, so it's fairly familiar to me!


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## KenOC

Harmonie said:


> It was a great place to visit, but I just don't think I could live there. I need four seasons, and I'm super scared of earthquakes.


Earthquake risks in California are much overblown. Your chances of dying in an earthquake in California are lower than being shot by a toddler. In fact, you're twice as likely to be struck by lightning.

Your lifetime risk of earthquake death is 1 in 20,000. For being murdered, it's 1 in 1,000. For dying in a traffic accident, it's 1 in 100.


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## Larkenfield

Speaking of toddlers, I just got shot with a cap gun.  I lived in LA for many years and experienced a number of big earthquakes. I would take them over any tornado or hurricane. I was never injured by one, but the last big one I was in in 1993 shook my apartment so much that my bedroom furniture rolled from one side of the room to the other. That’s when I decided to move to Arizona. I still love California, though, where family resides.


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## Harmonie

KenOC said:


> Earthquake risks in California are much overblown. Your chances of dying in an earthquake in California are lower than being shot by a toddler. In fact, you're twice as likely to be struck by lightning.
> 
> Your lifetime risk of earthquake death is 1 in 20,000. For being murdered, it's 1 in 1,000. For dying in a traffic accident, it's 1 in 100.


Earthquakes scare me, no matter how unlikely it is to die in one. It's like sinkholes, they can't be predicted and that terrifies me. I for sure don't want to live somewhere where they are common. Between that and, again, the lack of four seasons (which is essential to my well-being, living somewhere that never had real winters would depress me, just as living in Oklahoma already does with its weak winters), California is not somewhere I'd ever even consider living.


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## SixFootScowl

Harmonie said:


> Earthquakes scare me, no matter how unlikely it is to die in one. It's like sinkholes, they can't be predicted and that terrifies me. I for sure don't want to live somewhere where they are common. Between that and, again, the lack of four seasons (which is essential to my well-being, living somewhere that never had real winters would depress me, just as living in Oklahoma already does with its weak winters), California is not somewhere I'd ever even consider living.


I am with you. No desire to live in California.


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## philoctetes

Harmonie said:


> Earthquakes scare me, no matter how unlikely it is to die in one. It's like sinkholes, they can't be predicted and that terrifies me. I for sure don't want to live somewhere where they are common. Between that and, again, the lack of four seasons (which is essential to my well-being, living somewhere that never had real winters would depress me, just as living in Oklahoma already does with its weak winters), California is not somewhere I'd ever even consider living.


When I'm in OK and the tornado sirens blow, I'm tempted to go outside and look - while others have their own ideas. Here in CA, when the ground starts shaking, it's just paralyzing...

Even in the Sierras, the temps are barely cold enough to hold the snow through March. This year it will last longer but we're going to have some gigantic snowmelts.


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## philoctetes

"Your lifetime risk of earthquake death is 1 in 20,000. For being murdered, it’s 1 in 1,000. For dying in a traffic accident, it’s 1 in 100. "

An actuary would laugh all day at this. No conditioning on where someone lives or anything else.

It's "your lifetime risk" that is the problem, not the numbers. In a young person's case, violence is more likely than illness, and these proportions trade places with age. If someone always uses mass transit, well...

Our lives continue (or not) day-to-day under conditions which may be in flux, some of which we can control and some of which we cannot. Assessing the relative risks of living in CA (one condition) v OK (another condition) or even the cost or discomfort associated with those risks is how we take control of those conditions.

So throwing these "your lifetime" stats around only breaks the analytical surface of how risk can be evaluated for any individual with a certain set of known conditions.

Having said that, I cannot recommend living in Moore OK much more than under a California overpass... but Moore probably has better housing and schools.


----------



## KenOC

philoctetes said:


> "Your lifetime risk of earthquake death is 1 in 20,000. For being murdered, it's 1 in 1,000. For dying in a traffic accident, it's 1 in 100. "
> 
> An actuary would laugh all day at this. No conditioning on where someone lives or anything else.


That info is in the article linked. Earthquake death probability is in California, others nationwide. Estimates are from "seismologist Lucy Jones" as reported in the LA Times.


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## philoctetes

Well as usual I could not stop editing my post. Basically Lucy doesn't know enough to evaluate "my" risk as well as it could be. Lucy's averaging removes conditioning and blurs the details that pertain to "you".


----------



## philoctetes

California in music:


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## philoctetes

Ultimately, people aren't leaving California because of death stats. At this point, conditions in CA don't have to kill me to make me want to leave. They simply have to be a threat to my health, time, and economics - and CA is now pacing the pack in that department, even without any major earthquakes.

One might be unaffected by fires and floods and simply consult fuzzy stats, while someone else who has had enough of smoke and river muck might have their own ideas.


----------



## Harmonie

philoctetes said:


> When I'm in OK and the tornado sirens blow, I'm tempted to go outside and look - while others have their own ideas. Here in CA, when the ground starts shaking, it's just paralyzing...
> 
> Even in the Sierras, the temps are barely cold enough to hold the snow through March. This year it will last longer but we're going to have some gigantic snowmelts.


I'm actually terrified of tornadoes, too, but meteorologists can at least predict a severe thunderstorm outbreak days out, and then have Tornado Warnings and the like. An earthquake just happens and that's it. Oklahoma has actually had some earthquakes in recent years, but they're like 4.5 magnitude at worst. Nevertheless, one in early fall of 2016 gave my family and I quite a scare. They're usually so weak you can usually barely feel them in eastern Oklahoma, but this one was quite intense and really shook everything. I was at home, sleeping on a blow up mattress. I was scared that when I went back to my apartment that loser things would have crashed on the floor. Thankfully that wasn't the case.

Anyway, in regards to Moore, OK. I have said for a very long time that Moore and the greater OKC area should not be considered livable. You couldn't pay me to live in those areas. There are tornadoes all of the time, and the big ones always hit there. Every single time. I get that some people can have good memories of living there, but I would get the heck out of there as fast as I could.

Then again, I'm not really one to talk... My family and I will take the first opportunity we can to move to New England. I have always hated Oklahoma. Every bit of it. Moore and the OKC area is just so bad, though, that I straight-up told my parents I can't even begin to think of going to any university there at all.


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## KenOC

Here's a nice aerial shot of the California poppy bloom near Lake Elsinore, which hasn't let up yet.


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## Becca

It seems that California is always the state that gets tarred with the earthquake brush, so here are a couple of items from the USGS:

From 1975-1995 there were only four states that did not have any earthquakes. They were: Florida, Iowa, North Dakota, and Wisconsin.

Earthquakes occur in the central portion of the United States too! Some very powerful earthquakes occurred along the New Madrid fault in the Mississippi Valley in 1811-1812. Because of the crustal structure in the Central US which efficiently propagates seismic energy, shaking from earthquakes in this part of the country are felt at a much greater distance from the epicenters than similar size quakes in the Western US.

And before anyone says that's 200 years ago, here are reported faults in the New Madrid Fault Zone since 1974, some of which were felt as far away as Boston!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone#/media/File:New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone_activity_1974-2011.svg


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## philoctetes

There was one yesterday in North Carolina... 2.something. The New Madrid has not been completely dormant either. These faults are either becoming more active or we just have better instrumentation to detect their movements...

Anyway, compared to the seismic activity along the Ring of Fire, MTBQ is a matter of lifetimes rather than months.


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## philoctetes

Harmonie said:


> I'm actually terrified of tornadoes, too, but meteorologists can at least predict a severe thunderstorm outbreak days out, and then have Tornado Warnings and the like. An earthquake just happens and that's it. Oklahoma has actually had some earthquakes in recent years, but they're like 4.5 magnitude at worst. Nevertheless, one in early fall of 2016 gave my family and I quite a scare. They're usually so weak you can usually barely feel them in eastern Oklahoma, but this one was quite intense and really shook everything. I was at home, sleeping on a blow up mattress. I was scared that when I went back to my apartment that loser things would have crashed on the floor. Thankfully that wasn't the case.
> 
> Anyway, in regards to Moore, OK. I have said for a very long time that Moore and the greater OKC area should not be considered livable. You couldn't pay me to live in those areas. There are tornadoes all of the time, and the big ones always hit there. Every single time. I get that some people can have good memories of living there, but I would get the heck out of there as fast as I could.
> 
> Then again, I'm not really one to talk... My family and I will take the first opportunity we can to move to New England. I have always hated Oklahoma. Every bit of it. Moore and the OKC area is just so bad, though, that I straight-up told my parents I can't even begin to think of going to any university there at all.


I left OK and went to school in CA, but that was decades ago. Not recommended anymore...


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## KenOC

We have a fair number of shakers down here. Generally it has to be 3.5 or better to be noticed. There was a swarm of 4+ quakes up around Chino Hills a few years ago that were widely felt but caused no damage. In the 20 years I've lived here, the biggest shaker was a 6+ just south of the Mexican border that rattled things pretty good. Again, no damage around here.

But as they say, it's not if, it's when. Still, I'm happy to wait...


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## philoctetes

I "was there" for the Loma Prieta quake. At least I wasn't trapped under the Cypress Xpwy, Got home just minutes after it hit and everybody was going berserk. No World Series tonight folks! I ran some emergency errands that had me crossing the Dumbarton bridge, stuck in traffic, with most of the Bay Area in darkness. My neighbors cat had bolted under my house and got trapped in the foundation so I went under there like a Marine to retrieve it while the aftershocks were still rolling... nobody else would do it.. but it died the next day from dehydration... and two pet birds went AWOL but one came back. 

I've seen a few of these things at close hand. Lived just a mile from the crash site of PSA 182...


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## KenOC

Just a note for those concerned about earthquakes in Calfornia...


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## KenOC

It's spring! "Tabletops outside of Smokeyard Restaurant in the Village at Mammoth." Mammoth has had over 50 feet of snow this year.


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## SixFootScowl

KenOC said:


> It's spring! "Tabletops outside of Smokeyard Restaurant in the Village at Mammoth." Mammoth has had over 50 feet of snow this year.


So there should be plenty of water in the reservoirs for the summer.


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## KenOC

Fritz Kobus said:


> So there should be plenty of water in the reservoirs for the summer.


Maybe too much. Oroville dam will open its main spillway (newly repaired) tomorrow to draw down the reservoir in anticipation of a huge snowmelt. This is all a balancing act: How much to let flow to the sea, how much to retain for the dry months (but risk flooding and other disasters...)


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## senza sordino

We went to Palm Springs three weeks ago, late March. We took a thirty minutes drive east to the San Andreas Fault. There is no clear line in the ground here, it's well weathered and covered. And there hasn't been any ground motion here in a couple hundred years. But you know something is up because there is a natural oasis directly over the fault at the Coachella Valley Preserve. I took these photos with my point and shoot camera.


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## Tristan

View of the southern end of Silicon Valley from Mt. Umunhum:










View of Monterey Bay from the road that ascends Mt. Umunhum:










Did some hiking on Wednesday  I can't imagine living somewhere that's flat. The hills and mountains are a major part of what make California so wonderful.


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## KenOC

Drove down to Anza-Borrego Desert State Park day before yesterday. Lots of wildflowers, and the ocotillos are in full bloom. Cholla and barrel cactus all over the place. Had a truly horrible Mexican lunch in Borrego Springs. Came back throujgh Julian and then miles of orange, avocado, and grapefruit orchards along Hwy 78 (yes, we stole some).

It's a big state, lots of stuff here! Here's a barrel cactus. These can get quite large. Have a care picking it up!


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## SixFootScowl

KenOC said:


> Drove down to Anza-Borrego Desert State Park day before yesterday. Lots of wildflowers, and the ocotillos are in full bloom. Cholla and barrel cactus all over the place. Had a truly horrible Mexican lunch in Borrego Springs. Came back throujgh Julian and then miles of orange, avocado, and grapefruit orchards along Hwy 78 (yes, we stole some).
> 
> It's a big state, lots of stuff here! Here's a barrel cactus. These can get quite large. Have a care picking it up!


Must have to wear steel-toed shoes in that part of the country. Nothing like that happens to me in Michigan.


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## KenOC

Fritz Kobus said:


> Must have to wear steel-toed shoes in that part of the country. Nothing like that happens to me in Michigan.


We bought a tiny barrel cactus a few years back at Home Depot for $1.29 and put it put it out on our deck. Now it's well over a foot in diameter and overwhelming the pot it's in. "Feed me, feed me" sort of thing... :lol:


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## SixFootScowl

KenOC said:


> We bought a tiny barrel cactus a few years back at Home Depot for $1.29 and put it put it out on our deck. Now it's well over a foot in diameter and overwhelming the pot it's in. "Feed me, feed me" sort of thing... :lol:


Hope Depot here was selling cactus a few years ago and we do have some in a planter indoors.


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## DaveM

senza sordino said:


> We went to Palm Springs three weeks ago, late March. We took a thirty minutes drive east to the San Andreas Fault. There is no clear line in the ground here, it's well weathered and covered. And there hasn't been any ground motion here in a couple hundred years. But you know something is up because there is a natural oasis directly over the fault at the Coachella Valley Preserve. I took these photos with my point and shoot camera.


That makes me feel better. If the palm trees are fine sitting on top of the San Andreas fault, then I'm fine living near it...I think.


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## distantprommer

KenOC said:


> Drove down to Anza-Borrego Desert State Park day before yesterday. Lots of wildflowers, and the ocotillos are in full bloom. Cholla and barrel cactus all over the place. Had a truly horrible Mexican lunch in Borrego Springs. Came back throujgh Julian and then miles of orange, avocado, and grapefruit orchards along Hwy 78 (yes, we stole some).
> 
> It's a big state, lots of stuff here! Here's a barrel cactus. These can get quite large. Have a care picking it up!


What a coincidence. We visited the Anza Borrego Desert State Park on the 11th of April. This was our second visit in the last ten years. It is a stunning park to visit in the spring after a relatively wet winter.

I lived in Caliornia for 35 years, mostly in the San Gabriel Valley. A job offer had me and my wife move to Europe (NL and GB). Subsequently after 15 years we retired to Playa del Carmen, but we visit California at least twice a year. We just returned from attending my daughter's graduation at Pepperdine University. We still love California, but now the cost of living there is so steep, retirement there is out of the question.


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## KenOC

distantprommer said:


> ...We just returned from attending my daughter's graduation at Pepperdine University. We still love California, but now the cost of living there is so steep, retirement there is out of the question.


Ah, Pepperdine, perched on the edge of the Pacific in Malibu. You really have to go there to see just how stunning the campus is. And it ain't cheap! My son was accepted there but decided to stay in Seattle. I admit to having felt a bit of relief.

BTW, congratulations to your daughter!


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## philoctetes

Yeah California is beautiful, and mentally ill. Here is an example of what I live with around my hood full of half-million dollar homes. I just got this news yesterday while talking with neighbors. This guy used to shake down river visitors right in front of my house until I ran him off. Just last fall he was walking my street every day looking for stuff to steal.

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/9487045-181/guerneville-man-sentenced-in-bomb

Meanwhile, rumor says that another homeless guy I know round here has been busted on camera cutting gas lines on USPS vehicles. So he may be locked up before long too. Another report says he may be impersonating PG&E staff who are very active around here right now.

Somebody throw me a rope...


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## philoctetes

KenOC said:


> Drove down to Anza-Borrego Desert State Park day before yesterday. Lots of wildflowers, and the ocotillos are in full bloom. Cholla and barrel cactus all over the place. Had a truly horrible Mexican lunch in Borrego Springs. Came back throujgh Julian and then miles of orange, avocado, and grapefruit orchards along Hwy 78 (yes, we stole some).
> 
> It's a big state, lots of stuff here! Here's a barrel cactus. These can get quite large. Have a care picking it up!


Rural Mexican restaurants are usually a bad bet. No taco trucks on the way?

btw, I'm envious of your desert trip. Sounds very nice.


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## Guest

I was born in Sacramento and spent most of my early life in Northern California (we had a few sojourns in foreign countries as my father's job took us to various locales). After Sacramento, we moved to Tracy, and I eventually ended up in the shadow of the majestic Sutter Buttes, in the farmland of the northern Sacramento valley, almost exactly equidistant between the Coastal Range and the Sierra Nevadas.









My area faces constant threat of flooding, and several areas have never recovered. When there are problems with the Oroville Dam, my mom has to evacuate.

I left California for school, married a Southerner, and other than a brief stay north of the Mason-Dixon, have been a resident of the South. But not for lack of trying to move back to California. The problem came down to one of cost - in virtually every area. Housing is ridiculously expensive (with my line of work - science - I of necessity am tied to larger cities). Utilities are ridiculously expensive. After talking with a friend recently, even the task of registering your vehicle is ridiculously expensive.

There are things I miss. In my neck of the woods, I would love being able to drive no more than 5 miles from my house and find a vast array of farmstands offering fresh produce. And California grows just about everything. My particular hometown is known as the Prune Capitol of the World.

But for so much less, I am still close to the ocean (ocean you can swim in, unlike the Northern California Coast), I can afford a nicer home than I could ever hope to in California, cost of living is low - it just wasn't that hard of a decision (and we also have the best college football team known to man).


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## KenOC

If you're in California and have some time to poke around, there are some great day drives that are nowhere near the coast. Saw *this article* tonight that has some. I've driven all of them.


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## SixFootScowl

KenOC said:


> If you're in California and have some time to poke around, there are some great day drives that are nowhere near the cost. Saw *this article* tonight that has some. I've driven all of them.


They should define PCH in the article for us eastern folks, but given your note about nowhere near the coast, I figure PCH = Pacific Coast Highway.

My one attempt to reach California was aborted after two days of down time in Golden Colorado. I had just filled the 85 gallon fuel tank on the motorhome, then the in-tank fuel pump went out. We managed to do Colorado, Utah, and New Mexico anyway.


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## KenOC

DrMike said:


> I was born in Sacramento and spent most of my early life in Northern California (we had a few sojourns in foreign countries as my father's job took us to various locales). After Sacramento, we moved to Tracy, and I eventually ended up in the shadow of the majestic Sutter Buttes, in the farmland of the northern Sacramento valley, almost exactly equidistant between the Coastal Range and the Sierra Nevadas.


I was told that the Sutter Buttes (pictured in your post) had the highest concentration of rattlesnakes of anywhere in the US. Don't know if that is true, but maybe you do!


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> I was told that the Sutter Buttes (pictured in your post) had the highest concentration of rattlesnakes of anywhere in the US. Don't know if that is true, but maybe you do!


I'm not aware if that is true or not. I haven't spent a lot of time in them, as most of the land is private. But we got permission a few times to go camping and hiking in them back when I was a Boy Scout in my teenage years, and the worst I was exposed to was poison oak. I hiked all the way up the North Butte in a warmer month, and don't recall encountering snakes of any kind.


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## philoctetes

I've not hiked the Buttes (I know what they look like from I5) but a lot of the rattlers I've encountered in the Sierras are of the juvenile size, and they can be quite abundant on trails.


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## Tristan

I stepped on a snake yesterday at Pinnacles National Park. It was not a rattlesnake, thankfully. But I freaked out nonetheless 

The typical landscape of the Pinnacles:


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## philoctetes

Man, living here is hard work. After all that rain we have twice as much growth (aka fuel) as before. Many who vowed after the fires to clear their properties now are not getting it done. It's beautiful around here, very green and humid for this time of year, but give it three months and it's ready to torch. Would not be surprised to see freak thunderstorms arrive to help out. 

Evidence of nature pressuring back against humanity is obvious when I look online too. Already there were not enough construction workers, contractors, debris haulers, etc to fill the demand from fire and flood destruction. Now the demand for brush and tree removal is far beyond supply. I am barely keeping up with my share but doing better than most, in fact, I am doing work that neighbors should be doing and going to the dump several times a month in addition to weekly pickups. When neighbors look around they will notice but likely not say a word of thanks...


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## KenOC

Sierra snowpack is 202% of normal. If we get warm spring rains now, the rivers will rise and the reservoirs -- who knows!


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## philoctetes

For got to mention the wildlife - mountains lions and bears wandering in neighborhoods, more than the usual foxes and bobcats, and some guy exposing himself on a popular trail... he's still loose so authorities are asking for anybody who sees him in the act to photograph it...


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## philoctetes

KenOC said:


> Sierra snowpack is 202% of normal. If we get warm spring rains now, the rivers will rise and the reservoirs -- who knows!


Rivers won't get high enough to reduce the population much, but many new Darwin celebrities will be created...

https://abcnews.go.com/US/mother-35-plunges-death-slipping-california-waterfall/story?id=63429650

It's kinda sad, this is one of the most popular hikes in a beautiful setting - see the photos - visible right from 50 near Echo Summit. I've hiked and skied up there several times.

So how high do ya want the rivers to get? Check out all the red gauges that would normally be yellow this time of year... little of it can be captured but it does soak the ground... if you go to the CA49 bridge over the Yuba River right now it will be shaking... we still don't have a beach at the river where I live, it's dropping so slow, and of course I love that...

http://www.dreamflows.com/flows.php?zone=canv&page=real&form=norm&mark=All

Overall I expect to hear lots of sirens and helicopters this summer...


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> Sierra snowpack is 202% of normal. If we get warm spring rains now, the rivers will rise and the reservoirs -- who knows!


This is always a danger for my hometown, the Twin Cities of Yuba City and Marysville. They straddle the Feather River, which runs out of Oroville Dam. Our area has been flooded numerous times.


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## Becca

California, particularly SoCal, has two types of years...
- The ones where there has been little rainfall and everything is tinder dry leading to a very bad fire season.
- The very wet ones where everything grows like crazy, dries out during the late summer leading to a very bad fire season.


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## KenOC

Becca said:


> California, particularly SoCal, has two types of years...
> - The ones where there has been little rainfall and everything is tinder dry leading to a very bad fire season.
> - The very wet ones where everything grows like crazy, dries out during the late summer leading to a very bad fire season.


How true! Of course SoCal has always had bad fire seasons. It just that there are so many here now to complain about it!


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## Tristan

Becca said:


> California, particularly SoCal, has two types of years...
> - The ones where there has been little rainfall and everything is tinder dry leading to a very bad fire season.
> - The very wet ones where everything grows like crazy, dries out during the late summer leading to a very bad fire season.


They were talking about this on NPR, and ultimately the dry years are worse than the wet ones (statistically speaking). Even if there is more dry grass after a lot of rain, the trees are not as dry internally and they will not burn as fast or as violently if there was a good rainy season.


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## philoctetes

NPR v Reality


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## philoctetes

A lot of fire news again... just two weeks ago I was enjoying the beautiful (natural) cloud formations and fresh clean air. Then last weekend the sky assumed the ominous pattern of criss-crossing contrails and someone said it was the jets of Bohemian clubbers arriving for their gathering - what do I know? So yesterday smoke returned to Sonoma County from a fire in Lake County... now under control but for 12 hours my eyes and throat were in distress, the odors were raunchy and I actually felt kind of sick... and this report on last year's Ranch fire is so discouraging to read... I have to plug yellow-jacket nests myself once a year so I know the problem... for the first time in memory we have tourist and fire seasons starting the same week, early in June... all primed to do it all over again... and PG&E is already cutting off power to windy areas with little notice...

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/9675690-181/spark-from-hammer-metal-stake

NPR is wrong because the weather is different, hotter and windier, than we're accustomed to, and more people do dangerous and even stupid things in the outdoors. Simply cutting down the fuel is dangerous due to sparking. Whether this is a new normal or just a long-tailed statistical event is another question...

If anybody is planning to visit CA for summer vacation, I would recommend a change in plans. It's gonna be ugly by July 4th and I'm wondering where I will go to escape.


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## philoctetes

A guy working on my house told me last week how a power line fell on his road and scorched the earth for over an hour before the power was shut down. Then we had a conversation about smart meters.

I said this last year and I'll say it again. When PGE was forcing their dammed smart meters and their microwaves on all their customers, why weren't they working on smart devices for their power grids that shut off power during an event like the one at my contractor's house? This might also have prevented the fire at Paradise, among all the other things that might have gone better...


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## KenOC

For Philoctetes: Lake Tahoe snowmelt will be massive, and dangerous

Interesting article about swimmers and kayakers being swept away by high waters from the big Sierra snowmelt. Has some interesting examples of foolishness.


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## philoctetes

KenOC said:


> For Philoctetes: Lake Tahoe snowmelt will be massive, and dangerous
> 
> Interesting article about swimmers and kayakers being swept away by high waters from the big Sierra snowmelt. Has some interesting examples of foolishness.


Even the seasoned river rats can be surprised when they overestimate their skills against underestimated risk.. Those who run rivers year-round, as I did before I gave it up a few years ago, are typically more prepared for high water when it comes, while summer guides-for-hire may be quite green and more scared than their clients, but hopefully will have a lot of rescue gear and know how to use it.

I can easily picture the swimmer at Chili Bar at high water, not a pretty sight, or the kayaker stuck in the trees. The latter is a typical incident that rarely gets reported because the rescue is a private matter between those involved. Sometimes these rescues go on for hours before they are resolved, and you can see some dramatic ones on youtube. I've personally had to shepherd more naive boaters down high water than I can remember. One guy even lost the throw rope I rescued him with...


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## philoctetes

My district supervisor, busting gonads of the Bohemians... I like her much more now...

http://www.sonomawest.com/sonoma_west_times_and_news/opinion/columns/open-letter-to-members-guests-of-the-bohemian-grove/article_df1194de-8d64-11e9-8858-c39a1ee3e33a.html


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## philoctetes

So... this week I sent a letter to dear Lynda (see above) and asked if civilizing the Bohenian Club was such a good idea, why not the county's river park system?

Have received no reply yet, but this story seems absolutely relevant... and the CHP has taken sides

http://www.ktvu.com/news/ktvu-local-news/suspect-sought-by-chp-in-big-sur-vandalism-incidents


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## philoctetes

What tourists do on vacation


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## philoctetes

Meanwhile, the locals are so... ya know, progressive and socially conscious


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## KenOC

Not all sweetness and light right now. From the BBC:
---------------------------------
Power cuts expected to affect more than two million people have begun in California as fires continue to surge.

Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) initiated the precautionary blackout - expected to be the largest in state history - due to forecasts of extreme winds, which it said could damage facilities and cause new fires.

California Governor Gavin Newsom said the outages were "unacceptable". (Added: Perhaps our wretched governor should tell PG&E whose power should be cut and whose left on. But I won’t hold my breath.)

Some 90,000 people have been ordered to evacuate towns in northern California. The new evacuation order encompasses a huge area of Sonoma County, where the Kincade Fire has already burned through 25,455 acres (10,300 hectares) of land. 

A state of emergency has been declared in Los Angeles and Sonoma counties, and thousands of firefighters are battling the blazes.

PG&E said the power cuts would affect 940,000 households and businesses across 36 counties in northern California - hitting an estimated two million people. The outages are expected to last until Monday.


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## Larkenfield

Why oh why didn’t California install underground power lines years ago when it had the chance? Speaking as one who was born in California, I don’t think there was any justifiable reason not to do so. It would’ve helped as a safety feature and the state might not be going through what it is now. California has experienced every natural disaster except locust… and I wouldn’t even rule that out. The state has changed. It’s too crowded. Gee, maybe the federal government shouldn’t have taken the agricultural lands away from the Japanese during WW2 who consider themselves loyal Americans and were doing just fine. Ken Burns covers this event in his historic series on the war. California agriculture was stable in a very progressive state. If only CA had been more progressive in how it laid its electrical power lines it might not be going through these disastrous fires and other calamities once the drought and high winds hit. My heart goes out to all those who have lost their homes through these devastating fires.


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## KenOC

Larkenfield said:


> Why oh why didn't California install underground power lines years ago when it had the chance?


"Undergrounding is more expensive, since the cost of burying cables at transmission voltages is several times greater than overhead power lines, and the life-cycle cost of an underground power cable is two to four times the cost of an overhead power line. Above-ground lines cost around $10 per foot and underground lines cost in the range of $20 to $40 per foot." (Wiki)

When you consider that many of the at-risk communities have low populations and require power feeds many miles long through forests, undergrounding is simply not a feasible alternative. Even today, underground distribution tends to be limited to high-density well-heeled areas.


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## Luchesi

https://www.fire.ca.gov/media/8657/live_w_fire.pdf

'Interesting info.

Is "bum" a technical term (4 times) or do they mean "burn"? heh

For tens of thousands of years plants have adapted to fire in CA, so humans will have to adapt too.


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## KenOC

_The Atlantic_ has a new article: _*California is becoming unlivable*_. "Right now, wildfires are scorching tens of thousands of acres in California, choking the air with smoke, spurring widespread prophylactic blackouts, and forcing the evacuation of hundreds of thousands of people. Right now, roughly 130,000 Californians are homeless, and millions more are shelling out far more in rent than they can afford, commuting into expensive cities from faraway suburbs and towns, or doubling up in houses and apartments."

Bad news indeed. I'm going to pop over to Laguna Beach tomorrow to sprawl on the sand and consider just how horrible things here are.  Forecast is for 80 F.


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## Tristan

Yeah, I can't say things are going poorly for me here either but I'm fortunate and recognize that. I do feel for the people who are priced out of this state, and the wildfires are just depressing. Unfortunately they are the "new normal", so I guess I better get used to it, along with blackouts (our house is up in the hills above Silicon Valley and did have the power shut off this year). Plus the air was so bad a few days ago that I wore a mask when I went outside. 

But every place has its problems. Although I've been spending a lot of time in Europe lately, California is still my home.


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## Guest

California was my home growing up. I will always be fond of it. But I have been priced out of ever hoping to return. My line of work, science, means I am tied to larger cities. In California, the major places are San Francisco and Socal. I would be looking at least at a 2-hour one way commute to find affordable housing in an area with decent schools. No thank you.


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## Guest

The natural beauty here cannot be denied. But the state is in crisis. In the small coastal town where I live you can't go for a walk in the evening without encountering many homeless people wandering the streets, all of their possessions packed in a bag of two, seeking a place to spend the night. There are many places around town, parks, municipal buildings, parks, where cars and campers line up to park. The latter are, as I understand it, mostly people who are fully employed but have been priced out of any permanent housing. There is not one cause. There are restrictions on building based on desire for ecological sustainability, or the desire to keep the little town's "charm" intact. There is also the huge wealth dropped in the laps of people in the tech business who want a second home in a charming coastal town and who drive huge increases in real estate valuations and rents. A lot of housing stock formerly occupied by working people is being bought up by nonresidents and vacant, except on weekends. It is a catastrophe. The governer is working to drive more home construction, but it is hard to push the market towards practices that are less profitable for developers.


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## KenOC

Baron Scarpia said:


> ...The governer is working to drive more home construction, but it is hard to push the market towards practices that are less profitable for developers.


California has just enacted a statewide rent control measure. The governor signed it. This will certainly discourage new housing construction and exacerbate high housing costs due to limited supply versus demand. What on earth are these people thinking?


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## Jacck

I do not know what is driving up the real estate prices in California, but it is a problem everywhere. I suspect much of the problem is caused by wealthy foreigners who want to invest into housing. In Prague, London, Berlin etc a lot of Russians are buying houses and appartements to hide their stolen money in the West, which drives the prices up. In California, the same problem might be caused by the Chinese or even the Russians
https://calmatters.org/housing/2018...-real-estate-in-your-california-neighborhood/
the problem also is that the wealthy do not want the prices of real estates to go down, since they have a lot of money invested in it


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> California has just enacted a statewide rent control measure. The governor signed it. This will certainly discourage new housing construction and exacerbate high housing costs due to limited supply versus demand. What on earth are these people thinking?


Looks like the plan is to double down on stupid. Basic economics tells you that the best way to drive down process is to increase demand. City councils are stingy, though, in allowing areas to be rezoned to allow it. Rent and price controls are never a good idea. Just ask Nixon.


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## SixFootScowl

DrMike said:


> Looks like the plan is to double down on stupid. Basic economics tells you that the best way to drive down *process* is to increase *demand*. City councils are stingy, though, in allowing areas to be rezoned to allow it. Rent and price controls are never a good idea. Just ask Nixon.


I believe you mean to say, "...the best way to drive down *prices* is to increase *supply*."

Remarkably, there is a totally different attitude here in Southeast Michigan. Municipalities seem to be gung-ho to build bigger tax bases, and so you see suburban woodlands getting cut down for new housing projects, yet the roads are already having traffic beyond capacity.

Still, I'll take Michigan over California any day!


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## Guest

Jacck said:


> I do not know what is driving up the real estate prices in California, but it is a problem everywhere. I suspect much of the problem is caused by wealthy foreigners who want to invest into housing. In Prague, London, Berlin etc a lot of Russians are buying houses and appartements to hide their stolen money in the West, which drives the prices up. In California, the same problem might be caused by the Chinese or even the Russians
> https://calmatters.org/housing/2018...-real-estate-in-your-california-neighborhood/
> the problem also is that the wealthy do not want the prices of real estates to go down, since they have a lot of money invested in it


I think there is probably some of that. I think a bigger factor is wealth inequality, partly driven by tech IPOs which create large cohorts of millionaires who then are flush with cash and put some of it in real estate. The direct impact is in the tech hubs like the bay area and San Diego, but it all of coastal California, to some extent.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> California has just enacted a statewide rent control measure. The governor signed it. This will certainly discourage new housing construction and exacerbate high housing costs due to limited supply versus demand. What on earth are these people thinking?


You are of course correct with respect to the long term. At best it is a short term fix. The problem is that even without rent control the supply of affordable housing is actually shrinking as economic incentives draw developers to luxury housing. The real core of the governor's housing plan is to incentivize/coerce the construction of more affordable housing. Sometimes you need a short term fix until the long term plan kicks in. We'll see how that goes...


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## Strange Magic

Baron Scarpia said:


> You are of course correct with respect to the long term. At best it is a short term fix. The problem is that even without rent control the supply of affordable housing is actually shrinking as economic incentives draw developers to luxury housing. The real core of the governor's housing plan is to incentivize/coerce the construction of more affordable housing. Sometimes you need a short term fix until the long term plan kicks in. We'll see how that goes...


Nightly Business Report covers housing most every night and the story is always the same: builders only make money constructing homes for the wealthy. One comment was that it was "too expensive to build housing for the poor" (and the middle class). What may be needed is someone from the outside, familiar with efficient manufacturing techniques and also with plenty of cash and drive, to attack mass housing from an entirely fresh perspective. An example was Henry J. Kaiser building shipping like mad during WWII. An enlightened Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos-type go-getter. But they're too busy playing with space toys.


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## Guest

Strange Magic said:


> Nightly Business Report covers housing most every night and the story is always the same: builders only make money constructing homes for the wealthy. One comment was that it was "too expensive to build housing for the poor" (and the middle class). What may be needed is someone from the outside, familiar with efficient manufacturing techniques and also with plenty of cash and drive, to attack mass housing from an entirely fresh perspective. An example was Henry J. Kaiser building shipping like mad during WWII. An enlightened Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos-type go-getter. But they're too busy playing with space toys.


In the areas where real estate prices are going through the roof the value of the land dwarfs the value/cost of the structure. Best Musk and Bezos occupy themselves with space, where relatively little harm can be done.


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## KenOC

As long as I've been alive, very many could not afford to own their homes, and rents have been too high. That's because there's always somebody with more money. Unlikely to change.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> As long as I've been alive, very many could not afford to own their homes, and rents have been too high. That's because there's always somebody with more money. Unlikely to change.


It's gotten worse.

Maybe we're returning to the good old days.


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## Guest

Fritz Kobus said:


> I believe you mean to say, "...the best way to drive down *prices* is to increase *supply*."
> 
> Remarkably, there is a totally different attitude here in Southeast Michigan. Municipalities seem to be gung-ho to build bigger tax bases, and so you see suburban woodlands getting cut down for new housing projects, yet the roads are already having traffic beyond capacity.
> 
> Still, I'll take Michigan over California any day!


Except that the climate in California is much more pleasant. But I've been up to Michigan several times, and apart from Detroit, it is a gorgeous state, especially the upper peninsula.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> As long as I've been alive, very many could not afford to own their homes, and rents have been too high. That's because there's always somebody with more money. Unlikely to change.


It may when most of the tax base flees to other states promising more bang for your buck.


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## KenOC

Baron Scarpia said:


> It's gotten worse.
> 
> Maybe we're returning to the good old days.


I've wondered about that. In the 1930s, many were made homeless by the collapsed economy and the development of the "dust bowl" in central plains agricultural lands. But the growth of homelessness today has occurred in the most prosperous period in US history, when it would seem unlikely for that to occur. I can speculate on the causes but…not here.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> I've wondered about that. In the 1930s, many were made homeless by the collapsed economy and the development of the "dust bowl" in central plains agricultural lands. But the growth of homelessness today has occurred in the most prosperous period in US history, when it would seem unlikely for that to occur. I can speculate on the causes but…not here.


BTW, the lady in the photo eventually found a middle class life after WWII and died in Modesto, California in 1983.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Hey, you can come to Norway and get stuck in the fjord!


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## Larkenfield

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Hey, you can come to Norway and get stuck in the fjord!


When driving through California, I prefer the Fjord minivans!


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## KenOC

When sailing to war, I prefer a Fjord-class supercarrier.


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## philoctetes

The Palisades and Dusy Basin looking west across Owens Valley above Big Pine.


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## philoctetes

Operator error on previous post... that is the Palisades and Dusy Basin looking west across Owens Valley above Big Pine.

I "pre-evacuated" when I saw Red Flags on the way and took the loop through Bakersfield, Mojave, Death Valley and Owens Valley.

Here is a lake 1700' above the Mt Whitney trailhead. Difficult hike but not too bad with just a water bottle. Very calm yet backpackers attempting the peak were being turned back by cold and high winds. Lowest temp was 5F my last night before going back home.

View attachment 126148


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## Guest

Nothing too dramatic. The morro the gives Morro Bay its name.


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## KenOC

People have an image of the LA area as a vast congestion of crime, drugs, and homelessness. But much of the area surrounding LA is wild and lightly inhabited if at all.

In my town for instance, just south of LA, a child was attacked by a mountain lion yesterday. He was saved from serious harm when his father drove the animal away by swinging at it with a backpack. This was in the same area where a mountain biker was killed by a mountain lion not too long ago, where the residential neighborhoods end and the dry scrub and oak hills begin. The 2,500-acre *Whiting Ranch Wilderness Park*, where the attack occurred, is now closed while rangers look for the mountain lion.


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## KenOC

Follow-on to the above. TV news just announced that the mountain lion had been found, still carrying the backpack in its mouth, and put down. The news said that the sheriff’s office was asked why the animal wasn’t just captured and released someplace without people. The response was that there weren’t places like that anymore. In fact, I suppose the animal experts believe that an animal that once attacks humans, not its normal prey, is likely to do it again.


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## SixFootScowl

KenOC said:


> Follow-on to the above. TV news just announced that the mountain lion had been found, still carrying the backpack in its mouth, and put down. The news said that the sheriff's office was asked why the animal wasn't just captured and released someplace without people. The response was that there weren't places like that anymore. In fact, I suppose the animal experts believe that an animal that once attacks humans, not its normal prey, is likely to do it again.


Only possible option beyond putting it down would be a zoo. But then how many zoos are looking for man-eating cats?


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## KenOC

Fritz Kobus said:


> Only possible option beyond putting it down would be a zoo. But then how many zoos are looking for man-eating cats?


Zoos that stock people as food, I guess! :lol:


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## DaveM

KenOC said:


> Follow-on to the above. TV news just announced that the mountain lion had been found, still carrying the backpack in its mouth, and put down. The news said that the sheriff's office was asked why the animal wasn't just captured and released someplace without people. The response was that there weren't places like that anymore. In fact, I suppose the animal experts believe that an animal that once attacks humans, not its normal prey, is likely to do it again.


Has anyone considered that the lion may have just wanted a nice backpack?


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## SixFootScowl

DaveM said:


> Has anyone considered that the lion may have just wanted a nice backpack?


Then the cougar's big mistake was stealing it. He should have ordered his own off of Amazon. With Prime he'd of had it in two days!


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## Room2201974

While it was long, long ago, there was a time I wanted a cougar to attack me!


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## SixFootScowl

Room2201974 said:


> While it was long, long ago, there was a time I wanted a cougar to attack me!


There's got to be an interesting and unusual story behind that!


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## Room2201974

Fritz Kobus said:


> There's got to be an interesting and unusual story behind that!


Yes, there is, and trust me, I'm not going to tell it here!!!


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## Luchesi

A lot of regional forecasters go to conferences and we talk about our aggravations. One guy told me that California is the most aggravating place to forecast weather, while another said it's the most challenging and exciting.

Looking in from the outside, with much less data than they have, I'm very impressed with their accuracy. Of course the accuracy that forecasters are rated on is very different from what the public talks about.


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## Strange Magic

Luchesi said:


> Looking in from the outside, with much less data than they have, I'm very impressed with their accuracy. Of course the accuracy that forecasters are rated on is very different from what the public talks about.


This reminds me of an anecdote I read years ago about Winston Churchill's father, Sir Randolph Churchill. During a fierce downpour of rain, Sir Randolph was alleged to have hurled his barometer with great force out an open window into the deluge, and shouted that it should "see for itself" what the weather really was.


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## Room2201974

Luchesi said:


> A lot of regional forecasters go to conferences and we talk about our aggravations. One guy told me that California is the most aggravating place to forecast weather, while another said it's the most challenging and exciting.
> 
> Looking in from the outside, with much less data than they have, I'm very impressed with their accuracy. Of course the accuracy that forecasters are rated on is very different from what the public talks about.


I have a friend who works for the weather service in Denver who argues that they have hardest job in predicting the weather due to the close proximity of the Rookies. They should get together with California forecasters and duke it out with isobars.


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## SixFootScowl

Strange Magic said:


> This reminds me of an anecdote I read years ago about Winston Churchill's father, Sir Randolph Churchill. During a fierce downpour of rain, Sir Randolph was alleged to have hurled his barometer with great force out an open window into the deluge, and shouted that it should "see for itself" what the weather really was.


Back then nobody thought about it I guess, but the barometer probably shattered and released mercury into the environment. Ah well, small quantity.


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## Luchesi

Strange Magic said:


> This reminds me of an anecdote I read years ago about Winston Churchill's father, Sir Randolph Churchill. During a fierce downpour of rain, Sir Randolph was alleged to have hurled his barometer with great force out an open window into the deluge, and shouted that it should "see for itself" what the weather really was.


Did you ever wonder why barometers are so bad at forecasting weather events - even if it's a major event only a few hours away? It's a complicated topic, now that I think about it. I was going to go into it, but it would be a long post..


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