# Composers with the most gift for counterpoint (excluding Bach)



## violadude

Which composer do you feel had the greatest gift or knack for counterpoint (exclude Bach...for obvious reasons).

I feel that Mozart's counterpoint skills are often overlooked. It is understandable, since classical period music was mostly concerned with homophonic textures and that is obviously the style Mozart employed the most. But when he was in a counterpoint or fugue kind of mood he was killer. 

Beethoven obviously in his late period works. 

Hindemith had an awesome way of employing modern harmonic systems while still making his counterpoint work beautifully.

Shostakovich is often thought of for his very banal harmonic and instrumental gestures...but he revealed in his 24 preludes and fugues that he had a very refined sense of counterpoint as well. 

Well I don't want to take all of them...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

I'm surprised by the composers you mentioned above. I think we should examine the works of earlier composers before Bach for the reasaon that these were folks who developed the polyphony idiom in the music, rathern than studied older manuscripts of Bach liek Mozart and Beethoven did. Palestrina, Frescolbaldi; just to name two. Frescolbaldi's _Fiori musicali_ continued to influence composers for another two centuries after it was published in 1635.


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## jalex

Brahms was probably the best contrapuntist of the Romantic period. Rosen argues that Chopin was the greatest since Mozart (skipping over Beethoven), and although I doubt many would agree it's easy to forget about that early Romantic 'pianistic counterpoint' with lots of emphasis on inner voices exemplified by Chopin and Schumann. 

Bruckner has a reputation for a firm grasp of counterpoint but not being his biggest fan I could not say for myself what I think.

Of the modernists other than Hindemith, Stravinsky and Bartok knew their stuff. And Webern loved canons.

Re Shostakovich, anyone who composed a highly regarded cycle of 15 string quartets was probably no slouch at counterpoint  For which reason I might add Haydn to my list.


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## Sid James

Ones that I'd add are some of the Americans - Charles Ives, Alan Hovhaness, Leonard Bernstein, Steve Reich. Also Samuel Barber and Elliott Carter in those amazing fugal finales of their piano sonatas. Lots of 20th century composers where influenced by the wigs, as has been suggested above. Even if they weren't, eg. in the case of Harry Partch or Iannis Xenakis, their kind of anti-olden style counterpoints or layerings of "voices" or colours or whatever, are just amazing to hear. Another one I'd add is Aussie composer Nigel Westlake, whose music I've gotten to know recently. His _Piano Sonata _(1997) has this ending where counterpoint does not "nicely" intertwine but collides like boulders hitting eachother. It just has this visceral impact on me. His influences include jazz, rock, world music, but he obviously knows the old stuff as well. I think that counterpoint is being reinterpreted by every new generation of composers...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Elliott Carter's third string quartet could possibly be the most impressive contrapuntal work of the 20th century.


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## Guest

There's a romantic era composer whose contrapunctal skills are quite remarkable, except that he has a reputation for being terrible at counterpoint. And so if you hear this composer's name and the word "counterpoint," you will usually hear about his lack of skill, in spite of the evidence.

Amazing how often listening is at the mercy of ideas, and not just for "modern" music!


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## emiellucifuge

some guy said:


> There's a romantic era composer whose contrapunctal skills are quite remarkable, except that he has a reputation for being terrible at counterpoint. And so if you hear this composer's name and the word "counterpoint," you will usually hear about his lack of skill, in spite of the evidence.
> 
> Amazing how often listening is at the mercy of ideas, and not just for "modern" music!


Tell us, please!


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## norman bates

max reger: "Other people write fugues - I live inside them".


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## science

violadude said:


> I feel that Mozart's counterpoint skills are often overlooked. It is understandable, since classical period music was mostly concerned with homophonic textures and that is obviously the style Mozart employed the most. But when he was in a counterpoint or fugue kind of mood he was killer.
> 
> Beethoven obviously in his late period works.


I came to this thread to make those points, but since you have already, then I'll mention Allegri, Tallis, and Brahms.


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## NightHawk

I was going to laud 'Elliot Carter' but ComposerofAvantgardeMusic beat me to it. I will add my great enthusiasm for EC's counterpoint, however.


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## violadude

norman bates said:


> max reger: "Other people write fugues - I live inside them".


I forgot about Reger, but yes he is certainly a contester huh?


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## Dodecaplex

Myself. I write quintuple fugues like it's a walk in the park. Wait until I publish them.


Also, Sorabji was not bad at writing quadruple fugues.


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## Webernite

There are different kinds of counterpoint. In terms of sheer number of notes on the page, Wagner and Wagner's followers (Strauss, Mahler, Elgar, Reger, early Schoenberg) probably come out tops. But after hearing one of the young Richard Strauss symphonies, Brahms told him something like, "Don't pile up so many notes on a single triad." And on another occasion, Brahms said, "The hardest thing for a composer is to get rid of all the unnecessary notes." He was more interested in combinatorial counterpoint - knowing how to make themes fit together in different ways - than in just writing a lot of notes.

As for Chopin, Charles Rosen has a long-standing thing about Chopin being a great contrapuntist, which seems to bemuse a lot of people. In one of his books he clarifies what he means by saying: "For the Romantic composer, the experience of counterpoint comes first: the working-out on paper takes second place." To put Chopin above Mendelssohn or Beethoven might seem a bit perverse, but I can see what he's getting at. There's an interview where he explains his idea and plays Chopin in a contrapuntal way.

I agree with some guy that Berlioz was pretty good at counterpoint.


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## Juan

Mendelssohn.

I was just listening to his preludes and fugues (for piano), and they are great. And he uses lot of counterpoint in his most famous works too. I suppose his domination of counterpoint came as a consequence of his deep study (and admiration) of Bach.


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## Juan

What about Piazzolla counterpoint skills? Do you like this fugue?


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## clavichorder

Some more minor non baroque composers, Alkan, Medtner, and Taneyev can really be quite contrapuntal and very interesting about it. This was partly I thought and still think they are so cool and interesting. Muzio Clementi is excellent at his use of canons. 

Any number of Baroque composers can be cited. I'd like to mention William Boyce, who could really work out fugal passages and fill things up when he wanted to.


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## Guest

Webernite said:


> I agree with some guy that Berlioz was pretty good at counterpoint.


Cool beans!

(Oh, and well-played, too.:tiphat


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## starthrower

Anyone know why the Kent Kennan Counterpoint book is so expensive?
List price is over 100 dollars.


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## pollux

Henry Purcell.

"We have to bow to a contrapuntal virtuosity which even Bach never excelled."

"Moreover, Purcell hardly uses 'mechanical' devices, such as sequences, imitations, fugatos, etc. In his music we find total freedom allied total rigour, and the triumph of assymmetry, the leading feature of the baroque spirit, also shows in the flexibility and variety of rhythms, freely striding over the bar-line".

Not my words, they are Harry Halbreich's referring to the "Fantasias for the Viols".


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## jalex

some guy said:


> There's a romantic era composer whose contrapunctal skills are quite remarkable, except that he has a reputation for being terrible at counterpoint. And so if you hear this composer's name and the word "counterpoint," you will usually hear about his lack of skill, in spite of the evidence.


I thinkthe criticisms of his counterpoint are not directed so much at his ability to write Bachian counterpoint (he wrote enough fugues to prove he could do that as well as anyone), but at his voice leading in accompaniment and chordal figurations in which (apparently) the harmonic fleshing out is sometimes just done with whatever instrument is handy with little regard paid to traditional voice leading practice. I think this was Chopin's criticism at any rate; I can't say I've studied the scores to check.


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## Webernite

jalex said:


> I thinkthe criticisms of his counterpoint are not directed so much at his ability to write Bachian counterpoint (he wrote enough fugues to prove he could do that as well as anyone), but at his voice leading in accompaniment and chordal figurations in which (apparently) the harmonic fleshing out is sometimes just done with whatever instrument is handy *with little regard paid to traditional voice leading practice*. I think this was Chopin's criticism at any rate; I can't say I've studied the scores to check.


That's the general thrust of the criticisms he's faced over the years. His counterpoint is anti-academic in that it breaks traditional rules. But hey, it still sounds good (most of the time) and there's a strong sense of harmonic forward-motion, which is the most important thing.


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## Lukecash12

Ummmm.... Just about every great baroque composer as well as Bach? I mean, there's Lully, Rameau, Buxtehude, Sammartini, Couperin, Pergolesi, Scarlatti, Froberger, the Bach family, etc.


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## wiganwarrior

*Back to Mozart*

I am merely a layman, not a musician, but is there any better counterpoint than that contained in the last movement of the Jupiter symphony (closing few pages)?. Five different themes (I think)all played together - total clarity in the midst of apparent cachophony. Truly wonderful. And they say his music just gushed out, without revisions/corrections (as witnessed by Salieri's reaction to Mozart's manuscripts in the famous scene from "Amadeus"). If this was the case with the Jupiter, then it becomes nothing less than awesome.


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## Klavierspieler

Other than all the ones that have already been mentioned, I think Schumann's contrapuntal skills are seriously overlooked:


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## DavidMahler

Brahms
Palestrina
Reger
Hindemith
Fux


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## violadude

DavidMahler said:


> Brahms
> Palestrina
> Reger
> Hindemith
> Fux


Oh ya, Reger is a good one that I forgot about.


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## poconoron

I have not steeped myself in much of Handel's work................ what are your opinions on his counterpoint?


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## PetrB

A few:
Guillaume de Machaut
Josquin des Pres
Orlando di Lassus
Giovanni Palestrina
Jean-Phillippe Rameau (subtle as .... a completely other manner than his contemporary, Bach)
Claudio Monteverdi
Wolgang Mozart
Ludwig van Beethoven (The strongest contrapuntal hand he played was in the Missa Solemnis)
Robert Schumann
Felix Mendelssohn
Frederic Chopin (peppered throughout much of his work: a great player, admirer and advocate of Bach)
Johannes Brahms
Gustav Mahler
Igor Stravinsky (Symphony of psalms, middle movement - inverted and double fugue / Concerto for two solo pianos, 4th movement, prelude e fuga) / Variations on von Himmel Hoch (Bach chorale tune with Baroque contrapuntal variants - probably also up your alley.)
Bela Bartok (Music for Stringed Instruments, Percussion and Celesta, 1st movement Fugue)
Arnold Schoenberg
Alban Berg
Anton Webern
Claude Debussy (peppered throughout a lot of his work)
Dmitri Shostakovitch (a bit like re-inventing the wheel, but 24 preludes and fuges, ala Bach)
Benjamin Britten (Variations and Fugue on a theme of Purcell)
Darius Milhaud
Olivier Messiaen
Gabriel Faure
Pierre Boulez
Charles Ives
Leon Nancarrow
Samuel Barber (Piano Sonata, last movement fugue)
Elliott Carter
Charles Wuorinen
Milton Babbitt
Avro Part
Olli Mustonen (try Nonet, 1995)

These few named - while omitting many more.


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## SottoVoce

Mentioned here before, but Schoenberg always stood out for me as a great contrapuntalist; it's strange and enlightening how enjoyable his music gets when you focus on his separate melodic voices and especially on his motivic development. At least it did for me.


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## tgtr0660

Don't forget about Bruckner.


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## Webernite

What I'm getting from this thread is: every single composer had a gift for counterpoint.


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## kv466

Perhaps,...but, to me, the most intense counterpoint aside from JS was WA.


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## SottoVoce

> What I'm getting from this thread is: every single composer had a gift for counterpoint.


I don't think anyone has meant Schubert and Tchaikovsky yet, and rightly so in my opinion. Both of them didn't need counterpoint to make their music great.


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## aleazk

Juan said:


> What about Piazzolla counterpoint skills? Do you like this fugue?


and this one?


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## aleazk

what about Ravel's most known fugue?:


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## Il_Penseroso

After Johann Sebastian Bach, the most gift for countrepoint goes only to only Johannes Brahms and nobody else. Have you heard anything more gifted than final of the 4th. Symphony ?


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## ScipioAfricanus

Il_Penseroso said:


> After Johann Sebastian Bach, the most gift for countrepoint goes only to only Johannes Brahms and nobody else. Have you heard anything more gifted than final of the 4th. Symphony ?


You obviously haven't heard Bruckner. Try out the last movement of Bruckner's 5th.


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## suffolkcoastal

Vaughan Williams and Tippett musn't be overlooked either both have a superb command of counterpoint.


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## Lukecash12

Il_Penseroso said:


> After Johann Sebastian Bach, the most gift for countrepoint goes only to only Johannes Brahms and nobody else. Have you heard anything more gifted than final of the 4th. Symphony ?


I'd like see what people mean by "gifted", amongst all sorts of other statements made. It's not like we're all professional music analysts, but some concrete details would be nice. We can certainly do better than refer names of pieces, eh? If I might ask, what did Brahms accomplish with the final of his 4th?

Perusing the thread, right now it seems to be a debate of whose writing we like better as opposed to who is most gifted with counterpoint, whatever that means. Counterpoint is a compositional element that just about everyone was nuts about for a sizable chunk of the music that most of us look at. Having a command of it simply means to me that the composer used multiple subjects (the theory term) in his/her music, and it made sense. Maybe earlier proponents were more strict in modulation, used many broken statements of the subject, and were kaleidoscopic, but later proponents used it to suit their purpose just as well, methinks.


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