# Excess of experimentalism - excuse for lack of composing skills?



## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

Don't get me wrong. I love experimental music in rock, bands like Coil and Swans are really creative and have a sound of their own.
In our context, I also admire and love Kaija Saariaho's works, they are intriguing, they actually convey many sceneries in my mind.

But....when things go to John Cage's territory. Can experimentation be used as an excuse to disguise a lack of talent for reaching the results of Kaija, Glass, John Coltrane (in free jazz), Coil, Swans and Robert Fripp in his wildest? These are all geniuses, with a purpose! But what the hell is a lot of serialism music aiming to?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

The only thing I will say here is that a lot of experimentalist composers produce some really creative and intriguing sound art. 

I’m not touching anything else here with a 22 1/2-foot pole!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

The problem is, the arc of Western classical music (speaking very generally) has gone from melody (chant-organum-polyphony) to harmony (from Monteverdi to early Schoenberg) to sound itself (like Varese and Cage). Each phase starts out experimentally, then becomes rules-based, then it goes into subversion of the rules. 

Cage is among the experimenters in how to experience and manipulate sound itself, introducing time as a factor in musical discourse (which would include the lack of sound). He was working from a pretty much clean slate, which is very difficult to accomplish, so some pieces of his don't work, some are just pieces for his time, but others have made an impact. 

As the saying goes, a new idea goes from the joke to the threat to the obvious. At this point, we are getting past the joke-threat phase and are hearing pieces which are sound-based that everyday people aren't irritated by. I remember being in an airport, and the ambient music was nothing but sounds. 

So at least that's how I see it. Because of John Cage, I can sit in a room and not be bored, because I'm experiencing the moment, feeling the air currents, hearing the sounds I've been filtering out, and just enjoying breathing in and out. So in that sense, he has had a big impact on me personally. 

As to your last point, I'm not sure where serialism fits into a discussion about John Cage.


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

Manxfeeder said:


> As to your last point, I'm not sure where serialism fits into a discussion about John Cage.


But the discussion is not about John Cage.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> . . . As the saying goes, a new idea goes from the joke to the threat to the obvious. At this point, we are getting past the joke-threat phase and are hearing pieces which are sound-based that everyday people aren't irritated by. I remember being in an airport, and the ambient music was nothing but sounds. . . .


No, really we have not. At best, perhaps some composers have moved a bit away from the worst parts of the threat/joke. Most of the experimentation has resulted in nothing but dead ends that only a handful of people want to hear.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

aioriacont said:


> But the discussion is not about John Cage.


I'm sorry; I thought when you said "When things go to John Cage's territory" you were criticizing the direction he took. Serialism isn't really John Cage's territory. In fact, Pierre Boulez departed from Cage on that point, going into total serialism when Cage was emphasizing chance, stating that "Any composing strategy which is wholly 'rational' is irrational in the extreme."

Perhaps you can clarify what you mean by things going to John Cage's territory.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

JAS said:


> No, really we have not. At best, perhaps some composers have moved a bit away from the worst parts of the threat/joke. Most of the experimentation has resulted in nothing but dead ends that only a handful of people want to hear.


My point is that the concept of sound as the basis for organizing music is not as threatening or offputting as it was in the early part of the 20th Century, and that concept has even traveled from classical to jazz to rock.


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm sorry; I thought when you said "When things go to John Cage's territory" you were criticizing the direction he took. Serialism isn't really John Cage's territory. In fact, Pierre Boulez departed from Cage on that point, going into total serialism when Cage was emphasizing chance, stating that "Any composing strategy which is wholly 'rational' is irrational in the extreme."
> 
> Perhaps you can clarify what you mean by things going to John Cage's territory.


I can also clarify that I never connected John Cage with serialism.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> My point is that the concept of sound as the basis for organizing music is not as threatening or offputting as it was in the early part of the 20th Century, and that concept has even traveled from classical to jazz to rock.


To some extent, I would suggest that it has gone the other direction, but jazz and rock are welcome to keep whatever they like to do as I never intentionally listen to either.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

aioriacont said:


> But the discussion is not about John Cage.


I think maybe it's not clear exactly what you wish to discuss in this thread. You mention Cage's territory, which presumably means experimentalism. You end your OP with a question about serialism. Are you interested primarily in serialism or experimentalism in general?

I assume you view experimentalism as any new direction in music. I've always wondered to what extent composers actually view new concepts, techniques, styles, etc. in music as experimenting rather than simply composing. Beethoven, Wagner, Haydn, Schoenberg and others certainly composed using new ideas about music, but were they experimenting or simply expanding classical music ideas?

Normally experimentation attempts to understand to what extent something is true or whether something works (well). I would think that composers might experiment, but those experiments would occur before a finished work. Once a work is published, I'd assume they felt the new idea did, in fact, work.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Experimental music is a large and varied field. As far as I can see this is a thread about Cage, a composer I generally have little to say about.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

aioriacont said:


> Can experimentation be used as an excuse to disguise a lack of talent?


Talent is probably subjective and undeniably personal thing. One cannot possibly answer your question without calling some names so...
Do some composers lack talent? Probably yes.
Can extensive experimentation be used just for the sake of experimentation? Yes.

Next question please


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> Experimental music is a large and varied field. As far as I can see this is a thread about Cage, a composer I generally have little to say about.


cage has little to play too, his music is so quiet

bamdumtsss


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

Azol said:


> Talent is probably subjective and undeniably personal thing. One cannot possibly answer your question without calling some names so...
> Do some composers lack talent? Probably yes.
> Can extensive experimentation be used just for the sake of experimentation? Yes.
> 
> Next question please


yeah, that pretty much sums it all. My opinion too.


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## erki (Feb 17, 2020)

Excess of experimentalism - excuse for lack of composing skills?
Absolutely not.
Skills are just some tools and should never be considered as a criteria for understanding music. I am sure that most people create something because they feel like doing so.
I find this thought that "experimentalists" would actually like to write "classical" music but because they lack skills do something modern instead rather ridiculous.
If you look at "classical" music its playing field is rather narrow. The accepted range is very limited to scale tuning and some composition structure leaving out all other countless possibilities. Exploring sound and harmonies outside of this frame is excellent job of contemporary music.


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## erki (Feb 17, 2020)

aioriacont said:


> cage has little to play too, his music is so quiet
> 
> bamdumtsss


I was afraid that this comes down to Cage 4'33. How boring!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> Experimental music is a large and varied field. As far as I can see this is a thread about Cage, a composer I generally have little to say about.


:lol: As Cage said, "I have nothing to say and I am saying it and that is poetry."


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Manxfeeder said:


> My point is that the concept of sound as the basis for organizing music is not as threatening or offputting as it was in the early part of the 20th Century, and that concept has even traveled from classical to jazz to rock.


The radicals became The Establishment.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Maybe experimental music is just as shocking as 100 years ago?


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## UniversalTuringMachine (Jul 4, 2020)

If anything, it is experimentalism and creativity that is lacking today not skills. There are far more over-educated musicians that do menial jobs to survive than under-educated musicians creating "new" music.

We have an economic system that does not reward artistic creativity on a large scale because it doesn't produce good products that brainwashed people would like to consume. The very idea of producing something unique and challenging go against the fundamental logic of consumerism and mass production.

A part of the fear of creativity from the status quo is reflected in this post, that art should be about skill and craft, about producing useful entertainment, other than a goal in itself (excessive).


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> If anything, it is experimentalism and creativity that is lacking today not skills. There are far more over-educated musicians that do menial jobs to survive than under-educated musicians creating "new" music.
> 
> We have an economic system that does not reward artistic creativity on a large scale because it doesn't produce good products that brainwashed people would like to consume. The very idea of producing something unique and challenging go against the fundamental logic of consumerism and mass production.
> 
> A part of the fear of creativity from the status quo is reflected in this post, that art should be about skill and craft, about producing useful entertainment, other than a goal in itself (excessive).


you nailed it. Wise post and pretty much sums up the reality.


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## accmacmusic (May 9, 2020)

«Laudant illa, sed ista legunt».


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

accmacmusic said:


> «Laudant illa, sed ista legunt».


Translation:
They praise those works, but read these. - Variant translation: They praise those works, but they're not the ones they read. - IV, 49.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> .......There are far more over-educated musicians that do menial jobs to survive than under-educated musicians creating "new" music.


I'll have to respectfully disagree with that UTM.
This is the age of the DAW remember.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

aioriacont said:


> what the hell is a lot of serialism music aiming to?


Oy! We get one of these at least once a month around here. And it's not experimental anymore. If you were truly interested in the music you would just listen to it.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

mikeh375 said:


> I'll have to respectfully disagree with that UTM.
> This is the age of the DAW remember.


Seconded. There is plenty of "experimenting" music on the web, while there isn't much "perfecting" music.

Then there are epigonic works which are neither, but those weren't important in any age.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Serialist composers like Schoenberg, Berg, and 1950s/60s Stravinsky had a lot of talent.


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## UniversalTuringMachine (Jul 4, 2020)

Fabulin said:


> Seconded. There is plenty of "experimenting" music on the web, while there isn't much "perfecting" music.
> 
> Then there are epigonic works which are neither, but those weren't important in any age.


"Perfecting" will happen when experiments produce promising results and agenda to be taken seriously.

And no, there is never enough "experimenting" because to experiment means to embrace trial and error, to think outside the box. And trial and error is the essence of evolution and creation. The fact that some people here are so hostile and so stubborn about "experimental music" is symptomatic of prevalent music conservatism.

This is hardly new. Can you imaging how shocking and repulsed people were when they heard Eroica when it came out, or Grosse Fuge, or Symphony Fantastique, or Le Sacre du printemps, or Boulez's Piano Sonata no.2? Breakthrough is hard and unfortunately most experiments will end in failure and forgotten, but that's the nature of experiment and the right price to pay.


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## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

This statement may be true with some composers, however there are many experimental composers who are great at composing in traditional styles. Schoenberg for example, his early works e.g. verklarte nacht, gurrelieder show masterful control of the tonal system. Schoenberg made sure he had mastered and understood tonality before abandoning it.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

BenG said:


> This statement may be true with some composers, however there are many experimental composers who are great at composing in traditional styles. Schoenberg for example, his early works e.g. verklarte nacht, gurrelieder show masterful control of the tonal system. Schoenberg made sure he had mastered and understood tonality before abandoning it.


Yes, I'm still trying to warm up to such purely atonal music as that of mature Schoenberg but I must admit, there is genius in his compositions! But I think experimentalism shouldn't be "cheap", it shouldn't be experimentalism for the sake of experimentalism, innovativeness for the sake of innovativeness. Schoenberg composed based on his 12-tone system, meaning that there was a specific ideology and philosophy behind his compositions.

When it comes to artistic creativity and economy, I think there's a small problem. Many great composers lived in very modest conditions, if not in poverty. Art was an expression of artist's inner understanding, sometimes inner reflection of the exterior but it was an artistic need. Sure there have always been more financially rewarding jobs than art-related ones, but doing art is a need for the artist. So it at least used to be and I think it still is so. If we created art based on what would be financially the most useful, we would diminish the importance of art. When Beethoven composed his late string quartets, he didn't try to appeal to the publicity - the listener has to adapt to the music, not the music to the listener. I have a feeling, which might be entirely wrong, that some of contemporary music is excessively experimental because the composers feel that that's the expectation of "erudite" music critics.


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

What "experimental music" is this thread about?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

aioriacont said:


> Don't get me wrong. I love experimental music in rock, bands like Coil and Swans are really creative and have a sound of their own.
> In our context, I also admire and love Kaija Saariaho's works, they are intriguing, they actually convey many sceneries in my mind.
> 
> But....when things go to John Cage's territory. Can experimentation be used as an excuse to disguise a lack of talent for reaching the results of Kaija, Glass, John Coltrane (in free jazz), Coil, Swans and Robert Fripp in his wildest? These are all geniuses, with a purpose! But what the hell is a lot of serialism music aiming to?


It sounds like you have a certain expectation of "composing skills" and that they are somehow perceivable through the music itself when it is played. That might work for tonality, but not for music which is created without tonality, or does not concern itself with pitch so much, but is more like "just sound." This would include Varese: do you consider him untalented? Do you think all of Stockhausen's electronic works disguise a "lack of talent?" We all know he was a genius.

If you mean "serialism" like Ferneyhough or Birtwistle, any cursory investigation will reveal some very involved compositional procedures.

The thread title: is a complaint, not a question.

I see nothing wrong with John Cage's works, including ones which use "chance". His "Atlas Eclipticalis" is beautiful.
This one is really nice; you should try it out:


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

accmacmusic said:


> «Laudant illa, sed ista legunt».


Do you think that quote applies to this forum?


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## accmacmusic (May 9, 2020)

Manxfeeder said:


> Do you think that quote applies to this forum?


I think it applies to certain circles of 900 and contemporary music appreciation/production, where judgements are far detached from the aural experience.

This forum might have a tiny pinch of it, but the useful reviews/listening tips/etc. constitue the much much larger part.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

It seems to me, that the history of drastic experimentation in the arts, is that, the original experimenter in an artistic form, may be putting experimentation above content and even skill. But the artists that are influenced by the original experimenter, seem to be able to take what was the specific experimentation itself, and be inspired by it, then take it in new directions.

This seems to happen when an art form gets stagnant, it needs some innovation and experimentation to shake things up. 

For example, I am not a fan of Jackson Pollack, but many of the artists that were influenced by him (maybe not his art itself, but his level of experimentation), I love.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Simon Moon said:


> It seems to me, that the history of drastic experimentation in the arts, is that, the original experimenter in an artistic form, may be putting experimentation above content and even skill. But the artists that are influenced by the original experimenter, seem to be able to take what was the specific experimentation itself, and be inspired by it, then take it in new directions.
> 
> This seems to happen when an art form gets stagnant, it needs some innovation and experimentation to shake things up.
> 
> For example, I am not a fan of Jackson Pollack, but many of the artists that were influenced by him (maybe not his art itself, but his level of experimentation), I love.


Yea, an important part of Pollock's innovativeness was also in the way he painted. His painting process was similar to a dance and often consisted of rhythmic movements. He said that while painting, he was _in_ the painting and not aware of what he was doing. But I quite like his paintings .

I think that even drastic experimentation, if it's effective, is often need-based. The artist needs it for self-expression. Maybe the choral part of Beethoven's 9th or the prelude of Wagner's _Tristan_ were considered to be drastic experimentations during their lifetime as well, but they were still done with great artistic taste.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

This argument is as old as art itself. When is something existing only to push the boundaries and when is it truly art. And you will get a different answer for every person. So because of that, in some ways it is a pointless debate. And the verdict will change with time, of course.

I think of the Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. It pushed the boundaries a ton when it came out and was generally, to my understanding, not appreciated. But now it is universally hailed as a masterpiece.

My take is that composers of today are trying to each find their voice in an artistic universe where ANYTHING GOES. And we have living composers that run the whole gamut from traditional to minimalist to experimenting with electronics, serialists, spectralists, to those that fuse other traditions in their music from Eastern music to pop. The array is endless.

Are some pushing the boundaries without any attempt at producing something beautiful? Of course.
Are some creating something they feel is beautiful without any attempt at pushing boundaries? Of course.


I think the REAL gist of your opening post is "I don't like contemporary classical music." There are many who will agree with you and many who will not agree. But I would definitely say that THERE IS SOMETHING FOR EVERYONE IN THE CURRENT SCENE. If you don't like what you have heard, listen to something else. And ask for recommendations.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

20centrfuge said:


> I think of the Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. It pushed the boundaries a ton when it came out and was generally, to my understanding, not appreciated. But now it is universally hailed as a masterpiece.


Actually, although the story of the disastrous first performance was legendary, reviews weren't entirely negative. You can find the same thing with most radical pieces of music; they were controversial amongst the listening public and critics, not disliked by the vast majority. The situation today, in which even most of those interested in art music generally just ignore anything 'radical' by even the standards of 50 years ago as they don't like it, is quite, to the extent of my understanding, unique and attempts to draw historical parallels between the public reaction to say, _The Erocia_, and many of Cage's works are simply fallacious.


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## UniversalTuringMachine (Jul 4, 2020)

BachIsBest said:


> Actually, although the story of the disastrous first performance was legendary, reviews weren't entirely negative. You can find the same thing with most radical pieces of music; they were controversial amongst the listening public and critics, not disliked by the vast majority. The situation today, in which even most of those interested in art music generally just ignore anything 'radical' by even the standards of 50 years ago as they don't like it, is quite, to the extent of my understanding, unique and attempts to draw historical parallels between the public reaction to say, _The Erocia_, and many of Cage's works are simply fallacious.


The context for music appreciation/consumption is also much different. People generally want familiar, simple entertainment with instant gratification. And also anti-intellectualism is rampant in the west due to internet echo-chambers and social media that magnifies sensationalism, many people are hostile to anything appear to be intellectual, there is a deep distrust of the intelligentsia. All of this is bad news for the avant-garde, because now they seems like a bunch of frauds and posers. Instead of being curious and learning a few things or being open minded and gracious, people jump into conclusion immediately and start hating, which in return, grants them a fake sense of empowerment and comfort.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

^^^^yes, the Great Dumbing Down.


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## accmacmusic (May 9, 2020)

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> And also anti-intellectualism is rampant in the west due to internet echo-chambers and social media that magnifies sensationalism, many people are hostile to anything appear to be intellectual, there is a deep distrust of the intelligentsia. All of this is bad news for the avant-garde, because now they seems like a bunch of frauds and posers.


Musically speaking, intelligentsia made bold promises which did not age gracefully («one day even mailboys will whistle my tunes» is apocryphal I suspect, but captures the feeling well).
This sustained underachieving is only matched by by a bitter contempt of concert-goers - and in turn by concert-goers, who are not a gracious bunch.

Every art has a friction between _avant-garde_ and general public, but only in music - and maybe in museal visual arts - one can witness this pathological state of affairs.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The only thing I will say here is that a lot of experimentalist composers produce some really creative and intriguing sound art.
> 
> I'm not touching anything else here with a 22 1/2-foot pole!


I should clarify that I was only speaking here of "experimental music" where the focus is not on actual musical notation and more on the method of producing noises. I like much music that could technically be considered "experimental" but which stays well within the boundaries of music as we know it, including many forms of serialism and avant-gardism. I have no idea what the OP is talking about and we can't have any sort of constructive discussion without knowing. My comment was directed towards stuff like this:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I should clarify that I was only speaking here of "experimental music" where the focus is not on actual musical notation and more on the method of producing noises. I like much music that could technically be considered "experimental" but which stays well within the boundaries of music as we know it, including many forms of serialism and avant-gardism. I have no idea what the OP is talking about and we can't have any sort of constructive discussion without knowing. My comment was directed towards stuff like this...


In other words, music which spills-over conceptually into the realm of "art" that is more frequented by visual artists, conceptual artists, and the vast area of "sound being sound," which here is conveniently being dismissed as "noise." This is the kind of music that can do wonders for that "left side of the brain," but many musicians and listeners are too rational to tap-in to this side of their brains; that irrational, chance, poetic, uncharted side.

The OP's opening post is simply a negative swat at this kind of "art" music; there really is no "idea" stated, except for dislike of...something like this.

I have no problem with John Cage or serialism of any kind, or conceptual art and music, since my background is in the visual arts.

I mean, think about it: Ligeti is a good composer, yet his music consists of "noises" arguably. But there is definitely an intelligence there, and I am sympathetic to Ligeti's "enthusiasm" since he came from an area where modernism was "verboten" by the State. Good for him!


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## UniversalTuringMachine (Jul 4, 2020)

millionrainbows said:


> In other words, music which spills-over conceptually into the realm of "art" that is more frequented by visual artists, conceptual artists, and the vast area of "sound being sound," which here is conveniently being dismissed as "noise." This is the kind of music that can do wonders for that "left side of the brain," but many musicians and listeners are too rational to tap-in to this side of their brains; that irrational, chance, poetic, uncharted side.
> 
> The OP's opening post is simply a negative swat at this kind of "art" music; there really is no "idea" stated, except for dislike of...something like this.
> 
> ...


Great take. There are plenty of "noise" in Mahler too. Noise is any sound without a fixed pitch.

Why should music be about fixed pitch anyway? Or fixed pitches that is arranged in fixed structure (tonal music)? Or only certain class of structures (classical forms)?

I remember vividly when I was in high school (English boarding school) playing Mozart with loud speakers in my room, then a PE teacher came and said to me "turn off that noise". "Noise" is just a way to express sounds that you don't like.

Ultimately music is about sound that is mentally organized in the flow of consciousness. That's why works such as 4'33 are eye opening for the understanding and appreciation of music: you start to hear and organize sounds in ways outside the traditional ritual of performance. By expanding the realm of music, contemporary music makes the world more musical.


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