# Brahms: Ein deutsches Requiem, op. 45



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Brahms' _Ein deutsches Requiem_ ("A German Requiem") is currently on the tenth tier of the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works, making it one of the highest-ranked choral works.

As usual for a work of this stature, Wikipedia has a nice article about it, including some good background information and a little analysis, and a discography page, but the best online listening guide to this work that I know of is by Kelly Dean Hansen. The best source for recording recommendations is probably

Trout's blog post on this work, made by summing up all the recommendations.



> Condensed Listing:
> 1.	Klemperer (cond.), Schwarzkopf, Fischer-Dieskau, Philharmonia Orchestra & Chorus	(1961)
> 2.	Gardiner (cond.), Gilfry, Margiono, Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique, Monteverdi Choir	(1991)
> 3.	Kempe (cond.), Grümmer, Fischer-Dieskau, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, St. Hedwig's Cathedral Choir	(1955)
> ...


Here are some of the threads he would have consulted: 
Brahms Requiem - best recording 
Favorite Brahms German Requiem recording
A German Requiem

And here is a thread I was tempted to use as the reference thread for this work because there are a lot of good posts on there: Is the German Requiem really 'boring,' but I decided not to burden this work with such a negative framing.

So as usual, the main questions of this thread are: *Do you like this work? Do you love it? Why? What do you like about it? Do you have any reservations about it? What would you want someone new to this work to know about it? *


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I don't like much of Brahms's music, but I like this, especially movement 2. I have the Klemperer recording and I haven't listened to many others (life is too short for listening to long lists of the same work).

Reservations? The final movement seems unnecessary. It's probably too long.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Do I like this work? Ooh boy. 

In my estimation, this is Brahms’ masterpiece. It never fails to draw the strongest of emotional reactions. The deliberately chosen biblical text, along with the whole theme of comfort for the grieving, is very overwhelming and personally resonant. The booming timpani and chorus of the “All Flesh is as Grass” movement is forever stamped in my memory. And the message of spiritual resurrection and transcendence in the sixth movement is equally earth shattering. This is some of the most emotional and moving music I know. How anyone can find it “boring” is beyond my comprehension. 

So yes, definitely up there with my favorite choral works. 

Also: Klemperer is almost certainly the reference recording. The soloists are perfect.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I have asked my wife to play the Klemperer recording at my funeral.

We do a disservice to many works of art when we reduce them to entertainment that is supposed to please us - and this is probably one of the best examples of that. When some people say this work is boring, I think they mean it's not emotionally manipulative, and that they don't feel the emotions it aims to soothe. This is a humanitarian work, an act of charity by one of the only people in recent centuries who had the heart, the mind, _and_ ability to make music like this for us.


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## RockyIII (Jan 21, 2019)

One man's boring is another man's beauty. I really enjoy this work, having played the cello in a performance of it many years ago. Of the recordings listed above, I have heard Blomstedt and Klemperer and prefer the latter.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Probably one of my all time favorite classical music works. I don't just like it, I love it. I've sung sections of it in choirs when I was a student and even learned some of it on piano. It's an early to mid Brahms work worthy of an opus number above 100. (Brahms afficandos will get that.)

Why do I love it? Well it has some great melodies, wonderful counterpoint and some inspired fughetta sections. And it's down right fun to sing!!!!!!!

What would I have someone know about this work? Just a little known esoteric compositional idea: The melody in the strings of the first four measures of the 4th movement gets inverted in the sopranos in measures 5-8! (Psst, here's a good idea, now let me show you what I can do with it.)

Its also a good example of setting words to music with a range of music temperament from the serene to the thunderous. Young composers should take note. Lots of stuff to learn here.

A stellar work of first rank!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

This is a tough one - I love Brahms for the most part. The symphonies, concertos, chamber works - masterpiece after masterpiece. The Requiem - one big snooze fest. Don't listen to it, won't attend performances, and loathe having to perform in the orchestra. Maybe if I sang it like Room2201974 I would find something there. Have one recording - Karajan - and that's plenty. Of course, I can't stand the Mozart Requiem, either.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Funny how we differ. I love this work with its Lutheran texts. The recordings I have are Klemperer and Karajan (EMI)


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

A work as close to my heart as any, so beautiful and profound. I was thrown into the fire at 19 as a chorister performing it under Margaret Hillis, and that made me hooked for life. It remains my favorite choral work.

It also is the reason I first became obsessed with recordings. I wandered into Tower Records to find a good recording of the Requiem, and I picked out the Barenboim. I figured I couldn't go wrong with the Chicago Symphony Chorus, the one Hillis had herself built into one of the finest in the world. I ended up returning the recording as the slow pacing simply drained the life out of the work. I then decided to consult CD guides, and an obsession was born that has lasted more than half my lifetime.

My next purchase was the highly recommended Klemperer. I was okay with the conducting, but the chorus was very unstable to my young ears. We were all being taught in school to sing with minimal vibrato. I then came to the Gardiner, and this became my choice.

Now I have since grown to appreciate all styles - vibrato, straight tone, fast, slow, new, old. And I appreciate the Klemperer for its solemnity and warmth. But it is not my first choice. Klemperer to me too often simply moves steadily forward. What I miss is flexibility and shape. 

Gardiner provides all the shaping, beauty, and drama you could ask for, and this remains my top choice in modern sound. The choir is simply exquisite. (I have been accused on here of saying that slow tempos make music more "profound." This ought to further help dispel that aspersion. It is MUSICALITY that matters, not tempo!)

Other golden oldies besides Klemperer include the 1947 Karajan and Kempe, both beautifully shaped. 

My favorite performance, despite atrocious sound quality, is the 1947 Furtwängler. Everything is accentuated to the max, and I love it. I actually once knew an elderly woman who was at that concert. She recounted Furtwängler's "long, spidery arms" and Schwarzkopf's "golden tones." How jealous I was, but thankful something remains of that event however poorly transferred.

I would also like to mention Bruno Walter's account, which is quite dramatic. I prefer the live version, which is even more fiery than the studio account.

Top choices:

Wilhelm Furtwängler (1947) (IDIS, Melodram, Music & Arts)
Bruno Walter (live 1954) (Melodram)
John Eliot Gardiner (Philips)
Herbert von Karajan (1947) (EMI)
Otto Klemperer (EMI)
Rudolf Kempe (EMI)

Further listening:

Wilhelm Furtwängler (1948) (Pristine, Music & Arts)
Otto Klemperer (1956) (ICA)
Fritz Lehmann (DG)
Bruno Walter (Sony)
Willem Mengelberg (Dante)
Carlo Maria Giulini (DG)
Sergiù Celibidache (EMI)
Giuseppe Sinopoli (DG)
Rafael Kubelik (Audite)
Philippe Herreweghe (Harmonia Mundi)
Claudio Abbado (DG)


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I too, in my youth, have sung this work as a tenor in a chorus, and it remains a beloved piece. But then, I qualify as a fan of requiem masses in general, have collected recordings of them for years (as opposed to masses and choral music in general) and consider it a joy to be able to continue to _hear_ these works. May such continue for a long time to come! (Requiems are for the living, after all.)

And among my favorite Requiems is the Brahms.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Listening again to the 1947 Karajan. Really a great recording. One of the best things he ever did. One of the most fully engaged performances you will ever here. And as a bonus, you will not find a better pair of soloists anywhere than Hotter and Schwarzkopf. They also sang in the Lucerne Furtwängler recorded that same year but obviously can be heard more clearly in the studio.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_The Requiem - one big snooze fest. _

I love choral music, sing it and collect it, and enjoy many Brahms choral works. I have performed this twice and have to agree with the above opinion.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

larold said:


> _The Requiem - one big snooze fest. _
> 
> I love choral music, sing it and collect it, and enjoy many Brahms choral works. I have performed this twice and have to agree with the above opinion.


It is a very spiritual piece. Beautiful sonorities, depth and warmth. Unlike anything else I've ever heard. Not for people who need a lot of "action" to stay interested. It is essentially a piece about healing.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Please give this new recording a try, it opened new doors for me in this work, which already is beautiful.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

NLAdriaan said:


> View attachment 112835
> 
> 
> Please give this new recording a try, it opened new doors for me in this work, which already is beautiful.


Thank you for drawing my attention to this very recent recording. I remember being very impressed by a recording of the Beethoven Missa Solemnis by the same group. While I haven't finished listening to this new recording, I am also impressed.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I dislike it, especially the main theme in the 2nd movement. It makes me want to do away with myself. I like Klemperer's conducting, the playing and the singing in his version. He made the most he could out of the material.


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## newyorkconversation (Dec 6, 2017)

Saw this performed live tonight by the New York Philharmonic with the Concert Chorale of New York, Matthias Goerne, and soprano Ying Fang. I therefore feel qualified to opine: this is a great work. It just needs a bit of an edit.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

NLAdriaan said:


> View attachment 112835
> 
> 
> Please give this new recording a try, it opened new doors for me in this work, which already is beautiful.





Becca said:


> Thank you for drawing my attention to this very recent recording. I remember being very impressed by a recording of the Beethoven Missa Solemnis by the same group. While I haven't finished listening to this new recording, I am also impressed.


Except for the soprano


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Having read this thread I went back and had yet another listen (one of many over the years) and this probably finally decided it: It really does nothing for me in general - a minor aesthetic tingle generated by the second movement notwithstanding.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I dislike it, especially the main theme in the 2nd movement. It makes me want to do away with myself.


You know what? That might actually not be such a bad idea.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I am just getting into this piece and I'm just captivated. I am working and I put Harnoncourt's recording on at 8:00 am and It's nearly 4:00 pm and it's still going on repeat. It is just stunning in it's beautiful and I'm flooded with emotion listening to it. It's just so beautiful.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

This is one of my all-time favorite pieces of music, and possibly the most personally significant to me. A dear aunt of mine, a committed lifelong Lutheran, passed away a couple years ago after a terrible battle with cancer. During her final hours, I was housebound due to a huge blizzard. Oh how I wanted to be with her, but the roads were utterly impassable and she lived a few hours away. When I got the news, I could only think of one way to let the grief out. I put on the Klemperer recording of this work, and, with howling 60 mph winds battering the windows, I let this consoling music wash over me and let the tears flow. I only listen to it once a year on that date because it’s just that special, and in fact it’s just about that time in a week or so. Before that, I had liked the work, but now I understand how Brahms was so sympathetic to the spirit of human grief and wanted to write a humanitarian work for the purpose of comfort. There is not one second of it that I don’t find exquisitely, painfully beautiful, though part of me does wish that it ended with the great final outburst of the sixth movement rather than the seventh movement, which is essentially a reprise of the opening. 

My favorite version I’ve heard is the ’55 Kempe, which has magical hypnotic tempi that aren’t too slow and the warmest, most ravishing choral singing. And it’s some of the clearest, fullest mono sound I’ve heard. Klemperer is, of course, a classic though I’m not crazy about the presence of Fischer-Dieskau. Giulini and Barenboim/Chicago are two wonderful recordings that don’t get talked about often. And Gardiner is, surprisingly, very good even though I generally don’t like him at all. It sounds more like a Bach cantata under his direction, but maybe that was Brahms’s intention.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I'm always amused by Hanslick's comment that the fugue at the end of the third movement (I think) gives the sensation of being a passenger on an express train rattling through a tunnel. You know, he's right. :lol:


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> My favorite version I've heard is the '55 Kempe, which has magical hypnotic tempi that aren't too slow and the warmest, most ravishing choral singing. And it's some of the clearest, fullest mono sound I've heard. Klemperer is, of course, a classic though I'm not crazy about the presence of Fischer-Dieskau.


Do you mind Fischer-Dieskau on the Kempe recording, too? :devil:

The Kempe is one of my favorites, too. This morning I listened to another excellent one conducted by Schuricht, with Stader and Prey.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

wkasimer said:


> Do you mind Fischer-Dieskau on the Kempe recording, too? :devil:
> 
> The Kempe is one of my favorites, too. This morning I listened to another excellent one conducted by Schuricht, with Stader and Prey.


Oops, forgot about that! But if I recall right I find his voice slightly more palatable in the 50's. Of course, soloists aren't terribly important in this work compared to the conductor's direction and the skill of the chorus, but I do want those two solo movements to sound as heartfelt as possible.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I just picked up Gardiner's second recording. It's more dramatic and faster than Harnoncourt's. Love hearing the different interpretations, but good God Harnoncourt's is just so damn beautiful. 

This is a fantastic work. Brahms is one composer I haven't dabbled in too much. That will change.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

A work which starts strongly and dies in the behind.

The first two movements are fantastic. After that it seems to have been designed with the view that boredom is just as well and good a form of consolation as rapture. 

I believe this was rated many people's least favourite Brahms work, or perhaps most overrated work, or something of the sort recently.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Brahms ~ Ein Deutsches Requiem, Op. 45 (V/VII) ~ Herbert von Karajan

Thins one was on Stingray TV the other nigh, splendid


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

RogerWaters said:


> A work which starts strongly and dies in the behind.
> 
> The first two movements are fantastic. After that it seems to have been designed with the view that boredom is just as well and good a form of consolation as rapture.
> 
> I believe this was rated many people's least favourite Brahms work, or perhaps most overrated work, or something of the sort recently.


I like the first and last movements. I don't care too much for the ones between those, tbh.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

RogerWaters said:


> A work which starts strongly and dies in the behind.
> 
> The first two movements are fantastic. After that it seems to have been designed with the view that boredom is just as well and good a form of consolation as rapture.
> 
> I believe this was rated many people's least favourite Brahms work, or perhaps most overrated work, or something of the sort recently.


The penultimate movement is the greatest.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Oops, forgot about that! But if I recall right I find his voice slightly more palatable in the 50's.


I agree with you about Fischer-Dieskau on the Kempe recording. And Grümmer is fabulous.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

RogerWaters said:


> I believe this was rated many people's least favourite Brahms work, or perhaps most overrated work, or something of the sort recently.


That's what I thought, too, until I sang in a performance.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

RogerWaters said:


> A work which starts strongly and dies in the behind.
> 
> The first two movements are fantastic. After that it seems to have been designed with the view that boredom is just as well and good a form of consolation as rapture.
> 
> I believe this was rated many people's least favourite Brahms work, or perhaps most overrated work, or something of the sort recently.


The entire thing captivates me. I can't get enough of this work. I'm listening to it again, now. This time Gardiner's second recording.

I am not too familiar with Brahms entire output yet, or a majority of it for that matter, but it's works like these that have the power to transcend my view of a composer, open up their entire work, and vault them to a favorite. With Mozart it was _Le nozzle di Figaro_, with Beethoven it was the 6th Symphony, with Haydn it was _The Creation_, and with Schubert it was the 4th Symphony. Those were the works that opened these guys up to me, and today they are my four favorite composers. Will Brahms be the fifth? Remains to be seen.


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## vincula (Jun 23, 2020)

wkasimer said:


> I agree with you about Fischer-Dieskau on the Kempe recording. And Grümmer is fabulous.


Can you (or anyone else, for that matter) comment on the difference in SQ between these two issues?

















Thanks in advance!

Regards,

Vincula


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

vincula said:


> Can you (or anyone else, for that matter) comment on the difference in SQ between these two issues?
> 
> View attachment 150629
> 
> ...


I cannot comment on the difference. I only know the EMI transfer.

Kempe's is indeed the version to own. It is a shame that so many only know the work from Klemperer. The problem with Klemp is his lack of nuance and flexibility. Yes, movements 2 & 6 are very powerful, but the rest of the work suffers from the way he tends to barrel through, beginning with the very first bars of movement 1. This work needs a lot of flexibility and variation. Klemp tends to keep things less varied, playing fast movements slower and slow movements faster.

How different is Kempe! I have performed this work as a singer many times going back 30 years. Kempe's interpretation allows the greatness of each movement to come through. He displays tenderness, flexibility, and power in all the right spots. DFD is especially good in this recording. Just listen to his nuance in Movement 3. And Grummer shimmers beautifully in movement 5.

I must also mention Karajan 1947 recording. This is a one-off, and you have to account for the time of decimated post-war Europe. The choir does not sound at full strength. Schwarzkopf famously assisted the sopranos. But there is a special devotion to this performance that makes it uniquely compelling.


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## vincula (Jun 23, 2020)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I must also mention Karajan 1947 recording. This is a one-off, and you have to account for the time of decimated post-war Europe. The choir does not sound at full strength. Schwarzkopf famously assisted the sopranos. But there is a special devotion to this performance that makes it uniquely compelling.


Thanks a lot for the hint. I wasn't aware of this old Karajan recording. Found out it's on Naxos.









Will put an ear to it.

I own Furtwängler's live recording with the Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra 19th Nov 1948, included in the Memories Reverence box along with the symphonies. I was a bit disappointed with it. The SQ's quite challenging too and Brahms' Requiem does benefit from decent SQ to shine, I think.

I'm listening to this Carl Schuricht's one right now:









Regards,

Vincula


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Furtwangler's 1947 Lucerne interpretation with Schwarzkopf and Hotter is my favorite (the 3rd movement fugue is amazing) but it suffers from even worse sound than the 1948 Stockholm.

It's a shame Walter Legge went with Karajan for the studio recording with Schwarzkopf/Hotter. Herbie did a fine job, but I think a studio Furt version would have been one for the ages.


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## Simon23 (Dec 8, 2020)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I cannot comment on the difference. I only know the EMI transfer.
> 
> Kempe's is indeed the version to own. It is a shame that so many only know the work from Klemperer. The problem with Klemp is his lack of nuance and flexibility. Yes, movements 2 & 6 are very powerful, but the rest of the work suffers from the way he tends to barrel through, beginning with the very first bars of movement 1. This work needs a lot of flexibility and variation. Klemp tends to keep things less varied, playing fast movements slower and slow movements faster.
> 
> How different is Kempe! I have performed this work as a singer many times going back 30 years. Kempe's interpretation allows the greatness of each movement to come through. He displays tenderness, flexibility, and power in all the right spots. DFD is especially good in this recording. Just listen to his nuance in Movement 3. And Grummer shimmers beautifully in movement 5.


Klemperer has two more records - with Waechter/Lipp and Prey/Grummer. Can you tell us anything about them?


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Anyone like the Harnoncourt? It's glorious. Sensitive, expansive, expressive, passionate and dramatic.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Simon23 said:


> Klemperer has two more records - with Waechter/Lipp and Prey/Grummer. Can you tell us anything about them?


I have not but plan to.

The Klemperer is a beautiful recording, no doubt. The first two movements are the strongest. I just think the lack of interpretive variation and nuance makes things boring from there, particularly in movement 6. Also, the beautifully poignant 5th sounds mailed in with Schwarzkopf. Just dull. The one she did with Furtwängler in 1947 is the most beautiful I know.

Movements 3-6 should be the highlight of the work. The writing is so rich. You need a dynamic conductor and excellent soloists to bring it off, which we get with both Kempe and Karajan '47. Also Furtwängler/Lucerne, if you can get past the horrible sound quality.


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## Simon23 (Dec 8, 2020)

Thanks. The technical side of the recording quality is of little interest to me. Furtwängler/Lucerne is quite a rare record, I can't buy it yet.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Simon23 said:


> Thanks. The technical side of the recording quality is of little interest to me. Furtwängler/Lucerne is quite a rare record, I can't buy it yet.


The best transfer I have heard is IDIS.

20 years ago I had the pleasure of hearing from a lady directly about her experience of being at that 1947 Lucerne concert. She described Furtwangler's "spidery arms," and said after the concert she went to her hotel to try and reproduce Schwarzkopf's golden tones.

If gives me chills to think about her half century-old recollections as I now listen to Schwarzkopf/Furtwangler in the 5th movement, the most beautiful rendition I know:


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## Simon23 (Dec 8, 2020)

Another interesting recording of the Requiem, "dark horse", in my opinion. Fritz Lehmann was a great conductor for Bach, and this record very fine too.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

That’s hilarious! I listened to Lehmann the other day and was about to post about it with the exact same phrase: “dark horse” candidate. It’s a very dynamic, committed performance, surprisingly well recorded. 

Another more modern recording in the dark horse category is Sinopoli. The interpretation is excellent, as are the soloists especially Lucia Popp. The choir is fantastic, and the reverberant sound and rich orchestral tone creates a really Brahmsian sound world.


.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Another more modern recording in the dark horse category is Sinopoli. The interpretation is excellent, as are the soloists especially Lucia Popp. The choir is fantastic, and the reverberant sound and rich orchestral tone creates a really Brahmsian sound world.
> 
> .


That's the one that introduced me to this work, one of my favourite compositions by one of my favourite composers.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Simon23 said:


> Another interesting recording of the Requiem, "dark horse", in my opinion. Fritz Lehmann was a great conductor for Bach, and this record very fine too.
> 
> View attachment 151041


It's a pity that he didn't hire a better baritone soloist.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

As much as I like the Requiem I feel that the Alto Rhapsody is a more nuanced and emotional work.


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