# Karajan and Solti. Wagner opera contest..........



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

List the following 10 Wagner operas and next to them
who, in your opinion, did the better recording of it.
We'll add em up when the responses die down.
*Like this:*
Flying Dutchman Solti
Tannhauser Solti
Lohengrin Solti
Das Rheingold Solti
Die Walkure Solti
Siegfried Solti
Gotterdammerung Solti
Tristan Karajan
Meistersinger Karajan
Parsifal Karajan

Please do your list. It's only our opinions.
No hard feelings please.
Have fun


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't know what you mean when you ask which conductor did a better recording. Do you mean simply whose conducting we prefer? Or what recording of the opera, under each of these conductors, we prefer? The conducting is only one element in a recording.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

None of the above


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

When it comes to conducting alone, for me it's always Karajan, but some of his casting is problematic. And for Dutchman, Tannhauser, and Lohengrin, I really don't like either.

Flying Dutchman Karajan
Tannhauser Solti
Lohengrin Karajan
Das Rheingold Karajan
Die Walkure Solti
Siegfried Solti
Gotterdammerung Solti
Tristan Karajan
Meistersinger Solti
Parsifal Karajan


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

I love the recordings of both. One will have strengths that the other doesn't. However for Parsifal I would probably prefer Knappertsbusch and for Tristan I prefer Böhm, so it's a competitive wash


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Solti in all cases except for Tristan.

Tristan is unique in Wagner's output. It's supremely feminine, and Solti doesn't have the knack for it. Karajan is better suited.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Flying Dutchman Karajan
Tannhauser only know Solti 
Lohengrin only know Solti 
Das Rheingold Solti
Die Walkure Solti
Siegfried Solti
Gotterdammerung Solti
Tristan Karajan
Meistersinger really don't care, can't stand it, it's not funny, and it's supposed to be a comic opera....
Parsifal Karajan


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Das Rheingold - Karajan
Die Walküre - Leinsdorf
Siegfried - Goodall
Götterdämmerung - Knappertsbush
Parsifal - Barenboim
Tristan- Karajan
Lohengrin - Kempe
Mastersingers - Karajan 
Dutchman - Karajan


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

CnC Bartok said:


> Meistersinger really don't care, can't stand it, it's not funny, and it's supposed to be a comic opera....


It may not amuse you, but it's responsible for you giving me a chuckle. I'm not sure whether to thank you or Wagner. In any case it always feels good to laugh.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'd like some of Karajan's Wagner recordings better if I liked his casts better. In some cases I can't state a clear preference for one recording over another, but the ones below are definite:

Rheingold: Solti
Siegfried: Solti
Gotterdammerung: Solti
Tristan: Karajan
Parsifal: Solti


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

With a gun to my head 

Holländer - Solti
Tannhäuser - Solti
Lohengrin - Karajan
Das Rheingold - Solti
Die Walküre - Karajan
Siegfried - Solti
Götterdämmerung - Solti
Tristan - Karajan
Meistersinger - Karajan
Parsifal - Solti


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> I'd like some of Karajan's Wagner recordings better if I liked his casts better. In some cases I can't state a clear preference for one recording over another, but the ones below are definite:
> 
> Rheingold: Solti
> Siegfried: Solti
> ...


Are you referring to Karajan's studio Tristan or his live performance at Bayreuth in 1952?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Of those that I’ve heard recordings by both conductors. 

The Ring - Karajan
Tristan - Karajan 
Parsifal - Karajan 

I have Solti’s Tannhäuser but have never heard Karajan’s. I have Karajan’s 1951 Bayreuth Meistersinger but have never heard Solti’s. I haven’t heard either of them in Lohengrin or Holländer, but have Kempe in the former and Klemperer and Konwitschny in the latter.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

HenryPenfold said:


> Das Rheingold - Karajan
> Die Walküre - Leinsdorf
> Siegfried - Goodall
> Götterdämmerung - Knappertsbush
> ...


Tut tut Henry. Didn’t you read the OP?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Parsifal98 said:


> Are you referring to Karajan's studio Tristan or his live performance at Bayreuth in 1952?


Either, even though I can't listen to Martha Modl for more than ten minutes - or maybe at all. Solti's _Tristan_ - or should I say John Culshaw's _Tristan_ - has little to recommend it.


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

For me:
Das Rheingold - Karajan
Die Walkure - Karajan
Siegfried - Solti
Gotterdammerung - Solti
Tristan - Karajan
Parsifal - Karajan

Haven't heard the other ones

I find it interesting that Karajan never recorded Tannhauser since he recorded all of the other Wagner operas for either EMI or DG.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

LeoPiano said:


> For me:
> Das Rheingold - Karajan
> Die Walkure - Karajan
> Siegfried - Solti
> ...


There is a live Tannhäuser from Vienna 1963. It is very good. It’s a combination of the Paris and Dresden versions. Paris bacchanal and Dresden song contest.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> When it comes to conducting alone, for me it's always Karajan, but some of his casting is problematic. And for Dutchman, Tannhauser, and Lohengrin, I really don't like either.
> 
> Flying Dutchman Karajan
> Tannhauser Solti
> ...


My choices are identical to yours, except for Parsifal. I will go for Solti, mostly because of Ludwig's Kundry.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Karajan had a better sense of line than Solti When conducting Wagner although Solti was undoubtedly exciting. Both conductors were actually better heard live although most of the recordings we have of them are studio jobs.
So if we go opera by opera:
Dutchman - the least atmospheric of Solti’s recordings and a not very distinguished cast. Karajan lamed his recording with a Senta that was not up to it.
Tanhausser - this Solti is a winner because a vulgar score benefits from his brash approach. Karajan’s was a live performance which I have not heard.
Lohengrin - Karajan’s was a surprise choice in BBC’s Building a Library. A fabulously beautiful performance but Klempe still is the marker here.
The Ring - if you want Sonicstage thrills it is Solti. For something more subtle though less evenly cast Karajan. I prefer the latter for the BPO.
Tristan - Decca made a huge mistake in choosing Solti over Karajan to conduct their Tristan with Nilsson. Solti admitted himself he was not ready for it. HvK might even have persuaded DG to drop their hold on Windgassen. As it is HvK has two very different and memorable Tristans, one live one studio.
Mastersingers - two terrific recordings by Karajan
Parsifal - must confess my dislike of this opera despite its undoubted beauties. Both Karajan and Solti have made notable recordings.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

marlow said:


> ...
> The Ring - if you want Sonicstage thrills it is Solti. For something more subtle though less evenly cast Karajan. I prefer the latter for the BPO.
> ...


It would've been interesting to hear Karajan's take with the exact same cast that Solti had. I think both were great Wagner conductors.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

marlow said:


> Karajan had a better sense of line than Solti When conducting Wagner


Your comment brings back some good old memories, rather strangely. Do you remember this guy, btw? I wonder what he would have said in this thread.


NLAdriaan said:


> OMG. I think we have a thread on Karajan every month, and it's always a copy paste.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Solti developed somewhat as a conductor over the six years of recording Decca's _Ring._ It's often observed that he's excessively brash (for some tastes), and that he doesn't always maintain a sense of the long line. Of the four operas, _Gotterdammerung_ gets the best out of him in a great reading of epic breadth and power. His _Rheingold_ and _Siegfried _are vivid and strong, telling their stories with freshness and spontaneity. _Walkure, _I think, fares least well; it tends to move somewhat episodically, with some of the slower, quieter passages losing momentum. But on the whole Solti's _Ring_ is wonderfully dramatic, full of life and of uninhibited giving on the part of the musicians, and we are readily immersed in the work's special, legendary world. The singers make a huge contribution too; recording between 1959 and 1965, Decca was able to draw upon the last generation of Wagnerians whose activity began in the interwar period, and the casting in most roles is about as strong as was possible at the time.

Karajan's _Ring_ is more problematic for me. He was more concerned than Solti with refinements of orchestral sonority, and this is sometimes to the music's advantage, but sometimes it works against its natural vitality and flow. When that happens I find myself unpleasingly conscious of the recording as a product of the studio and of the conductor's conscious choices. I was listening to the _Gotterdammerung_ recently, beginning at the beginning with the norns, and in comparing Karajan's conducting of the scene with Solti's easy, natural flow and spontaneous drama I sensed a careful deliberation that felt calculated, stodgy, and frankly dull. The singing didn't help, with the luxurious casting of Christa Ludwig as the second norn undermined by the slower vibratos and duller articulation of Lilli Chookasian and Caterina Ligendza. Ludwig sings Waltraute as well (as she does for Solti), and to my mind she is the sole element of indisputable greatness in the recording. The other major singers have their virtues, but with a lineup including Nilsson (Brunnhilde), Windgassen (Siegfried), Frick (Hagen), Fischer-Dieskau (Gunther) and Neidlinger (Alberich), Solti's cast is on a different Wagnerian plane, capable of transporting me to a world of grand, heroic myth in a way that Karajan's is not.

Whatever Solti's shortcomings, I always feel that he and his collaborators are giving themselves over, unreservedly and unselfconsciously, to the music. In contrast, I sometimes get the feeling that Karajan is giving the music over to himself - to a personal vision of what it should sound like, a vision that often includes some peculiar and unsatisfying casting choices. I sense this not only in the Wagner operas he recorded for DG with the Berlin Philharmonic, but in other music as well. In my view he was a better, more natural, musician in earlier years, and some of his EMI opera recordings from the 1950s remain classics.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

I think a weakness in the Solti Ring is Hans Hotter in the role of Wotan starting with Die Walküre. His best days were behind him. It's unfortunate that George London couldn't have sung the role throughout the set. He sounds great in Das Rheingold. But then just a few years later his voice and health started to decline. Compare Hotter on the Solti set with this:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I feel that both conductors were much better in the theatre than in the recording studio, viz Solti’s 1983 Bayreuth Ring and his 1965 Covent Garden Ring and Karajan’s Salzburg Ring. Too much nitpicking in the studio and a lot more spontaneity in the theatre.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Yabetz said:


> I think a weakness in the Solti Ring is Hans Hotter in the role of Wotan starting with Die Walküre. His best days were behind him. It's unfortunate that George London couldn't have sung the role throughout the set. He sounds great in Das Rheingold. But then just a few years later his voice and health started to decline. Compare Hotter on the Solti set with this:


I agree, and I recall Conrad Osborne expressing a similar opinion back in the '60s. London's fine _Walkure_ Wotan is of course heard in RCA's competing recording which also features Nilsson, Vickers and Brouwenstijn under Leinsdorf. When I bought Solti's Ring on LP I preferred and substituted the Leinsdorf _Walkure._


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I sense this not only in the Wagner operas he recorded for DG with the Berlin Philharmonic, but in other music as well. In my view he was a better, more natural, musician in earlier years, and some of his EMI opera recordings from the 1950s remain classics.


I agree about the EMI recordings he made in the 1950s with either the Philharmonia or La Scala, but I also very much like the opera recordings he made for EMI with the VPO as opposed to the BPO, for instance *Salome *and *Aida*. The sound on the VPO recordings is also much more natural for some reason and we get none of the weird balances we hear in his *Tristan und Isolde *and his *Don Carlo*, though the EMI/BPO *Fidelio *is also in very good sound, and, as a performance, I actually prefer it to Klemperer's. Nor do I hear any of those weird recording balances in his DG/BPO *Ring *and DG/BPO *Parsifal*.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> ... I sometimes get the feeling that Karajan is giving the music over to himself - to a personal vision of what it should sound like, a vision that often includes some peculiar and unsatisfying casting choices. I sense this not only in the Wagner operas he recorded for DG with the Berlin Philharmonic, but in other music as well. *In my view he was a better, more natural, musician in earlier years, and some of his EMI opera recordings from the 1950s remain classics*.


I totally agree, and think that the match of HvK and as strong a willed producer as Walter Legge brought out the best in both (and inhibited the worst?)


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

I wonder what opinions are specifically about the Karajan/ Staatskapelle Dresden 1970 Meistersinger vs the 1975 Solti/VPO (I think I got the release years correct).


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Hard to pick an outright winner here. 
Karajan - The Staatskapelle plays beautifully. Adam is not as bad as he is painted in this recording. Maybe not as good as he was in Bayreuth in 1968 but by no means unlistenable. Kollo and Donath make a well matched pair and Kelemen and Ridderbusch are on great form. I know Peter Schreier and Geraint Evans tend to polarise opinion but I rather like them, probably Schreier more than Evans to be fair.

Solti - The VPO is glorious. Kollo and Bode excellent. Bailey in good voice If a bit grainy for me. Weikl, Hamari, Dallapozza and Moll very good. Solti handles the whole thing very well with little trace, if any, of what his detractors refer to as bombast.

Really I wouldn’t be without either of them.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Yabetz said:


> I wonder what opinions are specifically about the Karajan/ Staatskapelle Dresden 1970 Meistersinger vs the 1975 Solti/VPO (I think I got the release years correct).


They're both worth hearing, but I think that Karajan boasts a stronger cast, and I prefer his conducting. In some ways, the casts are complimentary. Norman Bailey is, I think, one of the best Sachses on record, while Adam is really no more than adequate. Karajan's set, though, finds Kollo in much better voice than for Solti a few years later, and Donath is a marvelous Eva. I also prefer Schreier to Dallapoza. The Pogners are both excellent, and both Beckmessers are strong in different ways. Like Barbebleu, I wouldn't want to be without either.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I know that I've posted this before but the HvK Meistersinger is one of the fascinating "if only" recordings ... it was originally scheduled to be done in 1968 but with Barbirolli conducting but was canceled due to the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia. Unfortunately Barbirolli had died by the time that the political dust had settled in late 1970 hence Karajan conducting. I wonder how much different the recording would have been had the producer been one of Karajan's regulars instead of Ronald Kinloch Anderson.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Thanks to all for the input...I just ordered both fairly cheap on CD. I'll give give both a listen. In time.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

LeoPiano said:


> ...
> I find it interesting that Karajan never recorded Tannhauser since he recorded all of the other Wagner operas for either EMI or DG.


I was rooting through YouTube and it would appear that there is a recorded live Karajan Vienna performance from 1963. It was apparently issued by DG but I can't find a copy anywhere. So for that one I guess by default it's the Solti/VPO recording in the absence of a Karajan counterpart.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Yabetz said:


> I was rooting through YouTube and it would appear that there is a recorded live Karajan Vienna performance from 1963. It was apparently issued by DG but I can't find a copy anywhere.


I think I pointed this out at post #17. 
Also https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Tan...659307358&sprefix=Karajan+tann,aps,81&sr=8-15


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Barbebleu said:


> I think I pointed this out at post #17.


So you did! My apologies, I'm pretty sloppy.  Do you know if it's still available on CD?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Yabetz said:


> So you did! My apologies, I'm pretty sloppy.  Do you know if it's still available on CD?


See my edited post.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Barbebleu said:


> See my edited post.


Well there it is.  Thanks!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

No worries.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

The only Solti Wagner recording I like is his Parsifal and as others have noted he tends to have better casts than Karajan. I'm not sure I like any of Karajan's studio Wagner recordings, he concentrated too much on the aesthetic beauty of the music and it's almost as if he forgot he was conducting opera. I like his live Tristan from Bayreuth in '52 though.

I'd rather have Barenboim, Kna or Keilberth any day.

N.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Thanks for your participation so far.
I've attempted to sift through the sometimes complex answers to a simple poll
and come up with a result so far.
*Totals thus far:*
Dutchman 3 Solti, 3 Karajan
Tannhauser 6 Solti
Lohengrin 3 Solti, 3 Karajan
Rheingold 5 Solti, 4 Karajan
Walkure 5 Solti, 3 Karajan
Siegfried 8 Solti, 1 Karajan
Gotterdammerung 8 Solti, 1 Karajan.
Tristan 0 Solti, 9 Karajan
Meistersinger 3 Solti, 2 Karajan
Parsifal 4 Solti, 5 Karajan
*Totals so far: Solti 45, Karajan 31*
In future posts please choose only between Solti and Karajan and please put
them in list form as in my first post.
Thank you.
Discussions can be placed after your list.
Thanks


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

Tannhauser - Karajan
Das Rheingold - Solti
Die Walkure - Solti
Siegfried - Solti
Gotterdammerung - Solti
Tristan - Karajan
Parsifal - Karajan

I obviously had to limit my votes to the works I know both conductors in.


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