# Stupid Questions About the Violin



## Open Book

I have or once had rudimentary knowledge of the violin.
Questions come up when I watched advanced violinists play. Many stupid questions, I admit, or rather questions that show my ignorance. I wonder if anyone would care to answer them.

The violin is the highest pitched stringed instrument in the orchestra, but the open G string is pretty low. I have no idea where this note would be on a piano (nor do I know anything of pianos). How much deeper does a piano go?

In most repertory, how often does a concert violinist even play on the G string, what percentage of the time? They seem to be on the A and E strings 90% of the time.

Also, when an orchestra all sounds the one note simultaneously while warming up with the concertmaster, just before they play for real, is that always the same tone? It sounds like the open A string on the violin to me, is it?


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## Vasks

The low G on violin is three white keys below middle C. You can see the piano goes way, way lower than the violin










Amount of time on G string maybe 25% max... maybe as low as 10%

Tuning is the open A string


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## Open Book

I have seen pieces played where the violinist is playing on two adjacent strings at once. Is it possible to be playing on three strings at once in any virtuoso pieces?

Modern-made violins pretty much have the same design as violins have always had. Is there any reason they are not more streamlined in design today? Would their sound be affected if the neck didn't end in a fancy scroll? Maybe no one wants to find out.


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## Vasks

Open Book said:


> I have seen pieces played where the violinist is playing on two adjacent strings at once. Is it possible to be playing on three strings at once in any virtuoso pieces?


The angle of the four strings is such that the bow can only play two adjacent strings simultaneously. It's called a double stop. Triple and quadruple stops are "broken" or "arpeggiated"

Instrument design is beyond my pay grade


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## senza sordino

There is no such thing as a stupid question. 

It's hard to know what percentage of time is spent playing the G String, possibly 25% because there are four strings. But it might be less than that for first violins, who usually play higher pitched notes than second violins. Usually but not always, sometimes the same, sometimes lower. I remember playing a Brahms symphony (don't remember which) where the seconds played a section in a higher register than firsts, and then another section where the seconds played lower notes than the violas. 

A triple stop is possible. On the opening page of the Bruch Violin Concerto there are some triple stops. They are loud. The bow hair bends around three strings, all bowed down bow, and you bow further away from the bridge where the curvature of the strings is a bit less. But triple stops are not used often. Almost always triple stops, as mentioned by Vasks, are broken. 

The scroll is convenient for the luthier when she is making the violin. The violin is hung up in her workshop on a wire. I sometimes see people hanging their violin by the scroll from the music stand. I would never do this because if the stand is bumped the violin falls. Ouch! I don't know if the scroll has any particular sonic qualities. 

Orchestras tune to A above middle C. It's a resonant frequency of the violin. When the brass and winds are tuning, and I'm waiting to tune, I can feel my violin vibrate when the brass and winds tune, my violin isn't being played. It already feels alive under my chin.


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## KenOC

senza sordino said:


> There is no such thing as a stupid question.


Uh, who's buried in Grant's Tomb?


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## Open Book

Vasks said:


> The low G on violin is three white keys below middle C. You can see the piano goes way, way lower than the violin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amount of time on G string maybe 25% max... maybe as low as 10%
> 
> Tuning is the open A string


The G string just seems like a deep note to me but probably only in comparison to the rest of the violin's range. That is close to midrange on a piano.


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## Open Book

On a stringed instrument you can achieve the same note with more than one string. With the D string, 4 fingers will bring you to A, the next string with no fingers pressing. Any compositions ever require open string?

More fingers on the D string would bring you to the same note as the open E string and beyond. Is this sometimes required instead of actually playing the next F note on the E string with one finger, just because it produces a different sound even though it is the same note at its core (forgive my non-technical means of expression)? 

Is there a method of indicating in the written score which string must be used?


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## Open Book

senza sordino said:


> There is no such thing as a stupid question.
> 
> It's hard to know what percentage of time is spent playing the G String, possibly 25% because there are four strings. But it might be less than that for first violins, who usually play higher pitched notes than second violins. Usually but not always, sometimes the same, sometimes lower. I remember playing a Brahms symphony (don't remember which) where the seconds played a section in a higher register than firsts, and then another section where the seconds played lower notes than the violas.
> 
> A triple stop is possible. On the opening page of the Bruch Violin Concerto there are some triple stops. They are loud. The bow hair bends around three strings, all bowed down bow, and you bow further away from the bridge where the curvature of the strings is a bit less. But triple stops are not used often. Almost always triple stops, as mentioned by Vasks, are broken.
> 
> The scroll is convenient for the luthier when she is making the violin. The violin is hung up in her workshop on a wire. I sometimes see people hanging their violin by the scroll from the music stand. I would never do this because if the stand is bumped the violin falls. Ouch! I don't know if the scroll has any particular sonic qualities.
> 
> Orchestras tune to A above middle C. It's a resonant frequency of the violin. When the brass and winds are tuning, and I'm waiting to tune, I can feel my violin vibrate when the brass and winds tune, my violin isn't being played. It already feels alive under my chin.


Probably the basic shape of the violin and other features are critical and will remain, huh?

Are there master violin makers today who are as highly regarded as the ones of the past?

Do the ones from the past, Stradivarius and others, have an expected shelf life beyond which their sound will deteriorate from age?

I'm sure I'll eventually ask a true stupid question, if I haven't by now.


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## Dan Ante

Vasks said:


> The angle of the four strings is such that the bow can only play t o adjacent strings simultaneously. It's called a double stop. Triple and quadruple stops are "broken" or "arpeggiated
> Instrument design is beyond my pay grade


I remember 15 - 20 years ago a Bow was developed with some sort of lever that reduced tention and enabled quadruple stopping obviously it did not catch on, also did not Anna Sophie Mutter do triple stopping in some works my memory may be a bit hazy on this one.


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## senza sordino

Open Book said:


> Probably the basic shape of the violin and other features are critical and will remain, huh?
> 
> Are there master violin makers today who are as highly regarded as the ones of the past?
> 
> Do the ones from the past, Stradivarius and others, have an expected shelf life beyond which their sound will deteriorate from age?
> 
> I'm sure I'll eventually ask a true stupid question, if I haven't by now.


The basic shape has not changed in centuries. It's not likely to change. But I'm not a luthier.

There are luthiers who are renowned and sought after.

Old violins can continue to sound great as they age. In fact many violins will sound better with age. But the violin needs to be played regularly. I've read that violins that are in museum display cases are periodically taken out to be played. My violin is 121 years old, and it sounds great. I wonder how a Stradivarius will sound 500 years from now? If it has been taken care of, I'm sure it'll sound great.



Open Book said:


> On a stringed instrument you can achieve the same note with more than one string. With the D string, 4 fingers will bring you to A, the next string with no fingers pressing. Any compositions ever require open string?
> 
> More fingers on the D string would bring you to the same note as the open E string and beyond. Is this sometimes required instead of actually playing the next F note on the E string with one finger, just because it produces a different sound even though it is the same note at its core (forgive my non-technical means of expression)?
> 
> Is there a method of indicating in the written score which string must be used?


The composer will sometimes indicate on which string a section of the music is to be played. Typically that would be the G string for the richer tone quality. There is a section of a Paganini Caprice that is played way way up there on the G string. Air on a G string is played entirely on the G string. There is a section of Ravel's Tzigane to be played way up on the D string. (Though I have never played this piece, it's beyond my ability).

It's unusual for a composer to indicate fingerings, that is left to interpretation of the performer. Sometimes bow direction is indicated, but often not. There is a lot of interpretation of each piece.

The composer will write in to slur or not, but not fingerings, and not often which string or which bow direction.

(Slur = multiple notes with one bow direction. Not to slur = each note is a separate bow direction.)


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## Dan Ante

Another thing that I remembered last night was one thing that surprised researchers into what made the Strad such a nice sound was that it was asymmetrical.


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## Open Book

senza sordino said:


> The basic shape has not changed in centuries. It's not likely to change. But I'm not a luthier.
> 
> The composer will sometimes indicate on which string a section of the music is to be played. Typically that would be the G string for the richer tone quality. There is a section of a Paganini Caprice that is played way way up there on the G string. Air on a G string is played entirely on the G string. There is a section of Ravel's Tzigane to be played way up on the D string. (Though I have never played this piece, it's beyond my ability).
> 
> It's unusual for a composer to indicate fingerings, that is left to interpretation of the performer. Sometimes bow direction is indicated, but often not. There is a lot of interpretation of each piece.
> 
> The composer will write in to slur or not, but not fingerings, and not often which string or which bow direction.
> 
> (Slur = multiple notes with one bow direction. Not to slur = each note is a separate bow direction.)


I actually didn't know Bach's Air was played entirely on the G string. You can see some details in this video. Are you sure she's not on the D string part of the time?

Is slurring the same as legato or is legato not always in one direction?


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## millionrainbows

KenOC said:


> Uh, who's buried in Grant's Tomb?


Uh, who's buried in Grant's Tomb in a G-string?


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## millionrainbows

It is possible to do quadruple-stopping, but it involves disassembling the bow and wrapping the hair around the strings.


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## millionrainbows

I'd like to see "Air IN a G-string." Not me, the violinist.


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## Dan Ante

millionrainbows said:


> It is possible to do quadruple-stopping, but it involves disassembling the bow and wrapping the hair around the strings.


You're behind the times old chap


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## Guest

I believe that triple and perhaps quadruple stopping was more practical with the violin setup of the 18th century or earlier because the bridge was flatter and bows not as tightly strung. (At least, this is what I have gleaned from the notes of various CDs.) Some of the multiple stops in Bach's suites for violin unaccompanied that are arpeggiated on a modern instrument could be played without arpeggiation on the old instruments.


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## gotosleepalready

Looks like she's playing it all on the G string. Playing higher up on a string instead of playing on the next string over is actually fairly common, because it has a louder, fuller tone (at least thats the way I would describe it), probably due to the amount of string vibrating being shorter or something.
Slurring is not quite the same as legato. Slur markings could indicate either playing legato with bow changes, or it could mean to play legato using the same bow direction.


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## gotosleepalready

Also,


Open Book said:


> On a stringed instrument you can achieve the same note with more than one string. With the D string, 4 fingers will bring you to A, the next string with no fingers pressing. Any compositions ever require open string?
> 
> More fingers on the D string would bring you to the same note as the open E string and beyond. Is this sometimes required instead of actually playing the next F note on the E string with one finger, just because it produces a different sound even though it is the same note at its core (forgive my non-technical means of expression)?
> 
> Is there a method of indicating in the written score which string must be used?


The method of indicating when to play on a certain string for an extended amount of time where it could be played on another string is typically a dotted line, similar to the indication to play an octave up, that says "sul [string]", like sul G. So that means you play that section all on the G string.
In general when indicating which string to play on for a certain note/passage, there is a roman numeral (I, II, III, IV), but sometimes roman numerals actually indicate which position to play in, which is confusing.


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## Enthalpy

The G string sounds warm, dark and low because its fundamental is below the resonances hence weak. The low notes of a clarinet sound much darker than that. But the violin is a strict soprano, pitched very high. The same G on a bassoon sounds high and clear.

Some scores require playing on the G string only. But normal practice is to use high positions on the E string mainly, as they have drawbacks, so the E string serves for a much wider range than the others, especially at soloist parts, hence it serves more often. Add to it that high notes (with some limitations) are more powerful and better perceived, especially if the accompaniment is lower, so composers use them much in solos. The A string serves then to play a few lower notes without changing much the position.

The composer indicates sometimes the string for its desired sound, then by a roman number or with text. In his "Ridda dei folletti", Bazzini lets play the same note successively on strings I, II, III, IV for the timbre constrast, similarly to a trumpet playing oo-ah with a sordino.

Triple stops exist in Bach's sonatas and partitas and elsewhere. They demand much bow pressure, resulting in fortissimo and often bad sound. There was some debate whether bow construction at that time made it easier, seemingly they didn't. Three fingers prevent quick playing.


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## Enthalpy

The scroll is sometimes replaced by a face. That part has no acoustical function. The strings must plunge, the carved shape is convenient and sturdy to host the tuning pegs, and wood is available at the top, so some good-looking shape is common.

Luthiers do experiment, quite a lot...

The resistance of steel, and formerly sheep gut, determines the length of the E string. And if you changed it, some music would become unplayable.

The bow needs room to play the E and G strings, so the box is narrower there.

A round shape makes the box more resistant and avoids some parasitic resonances.

The table must resist the strings' pressure.

Luthier spruce is the (second) best available material, giving the least mass at identical flexural resonant frequencies. Metal, polymer, carbon fibres are much worse for that simple physical reason, they all failed and continue to fail. Kiri (Paulownia tomentosa) could outperform spruce (Picea abies), it serves for Kotos, is reported to improve guitars, and could be worth a try on violins. Carbon fibres make sense only as a sandwich, I haven't seen reports on that.

If you put all theses constraints together, you realize that the historical design was excellent. Known redesigns failed. Most luthiers concentrate on points not visible, especially wood thickness, materials, shape of the bar...

Maybe a completely different design would be better. Stroh violins sound horribly, but the historical design with two flexural plates is not necessarily the best one.


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## Enthalpy

About the table material, physical aspects are there and in the following messages
https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/117420-string-instruments/?tab=comments#comment-1087048
supposedly too much science and too little music for the present forum - but science and music fit very well together.


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## Enthalpy

Old Italian violins...

Rich soloists could own several old Italian violins in the past. At present price, they can't buy any: either lent by a benevolent organization, or by a bank that hopes the instrument will have more value after a well-known soloist has played it. That scheme will probably stop some day and some people will lose money.

Don't claim you found a Strad in your attic. The old Italian violins are all known, by their name, previous and present owners, location, except for a few stolen ones. Finding a disappeared one is remotely possible, an unknown one highly improbable.

Guadagnini, Stadivarius, Guarneri made them shortly after the original design, so they are more or less the oldest violins.

Among explanations proposed for their "superiority", the varnish is outfashioned, wood grown more slowly during the Maunder climate minimum has still some credit (but wouldn't it suffice to cut trees grown 300m higher, since luthier wood grows on mountains anyway?), and more recently a team proposed that age makes the wood lighter but it will be too flexible in the future. An Australian long-term experiment begins to show that playing a violin or not changes nothing.

These old Italian violins sound badly to my ears. Soloists want them for ease of playing and for strong and "projecting" sound which is strident. Hungarian and gipsy violins have a much more pleasant sound but aren't as loud nor easy.

Their sound is reliably recognized in a side-by-side comparison. Some recent experiments claim the opposite, I don't know how they found such a thing.

These old violins were heavily modified. The higher bridge changes radically the coupling from the string's lateral movements to the table. The bar was made taller to resist the string pressure. They got metal and metal-spun strings, radical difference with bare sheep gut. In their original state, they would be just plain bad for today's violinists.

Vuillaume made a copy of Paganini's Guarneri "Il cannone". Hilary Hahn plays the copy that sounds just Guarneri-esque. But reproducing just the dimensions makes a bad instrument.

Vilde Frang plays a Vuillaume that sounds much nicer to my ears than the old Italian violins. I don't know how loudly she plays.

Maybe amplifiers will change the desires of the soloists too. Presently, nearly all want the old Italian violins (and not only Strad!). A few soloists are happy with recent violins, by Martin Schleske and others.


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## Open Book

Enthalpy said:


> The G string sounds warm, dark and low because its fundamental is below the resonances hence weak. The low notes of a clarinet sound much darker than that. But the violin is a strict soprano, pitched very high. The same G on a bassoon sounds high and clear.
> 
> Some scores require playing on the G string only. But normal practice is to use high positions on the E string mainly, as they have drawbacks, so the E string serves for a much wider range than the others, especially at soloist parts, hence it serves more often. Add to it that high notes (with some limitations) are more powerful and better perceived, especially if the accompaniment is lower, so composers use them much in solos. The A string serves then to play a few lower notes without changing much the position.
> 
> The composer indicates sometimes the string for its desired sound, then by a roman number or with text. In his "Ridda dei folletti", Bazzini lets play the same note successively on strings I, II, III, IV for the timbre constrast, similarly to a trumpet playing oo-ah with a sordino.
> 
> Triple stops exist in Bach's sonatas and partitas and elsewhere. They demand much bow pressure, resulting in fortissimo and often bad sound. There was some debate whether bow construction at that time made it easier, seemingly they didn't. Three fingers prevent quick playing.


Enthalpy, thanks for this generous information in your 4 posts here, it will take me a while to digest it all. A lot will remain over my head.

It did always occur to me that the 4 strings have very different characters. G does sound deep and dark. Interesting that the same G sounds high on a bassoon. You are a bassoonist, I gather from another thread? How do you know so much about the violin?

Listening to the Bazzini now. Had not heard of the composer before.


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## Enthalpy

Open Book said:


> You are a bassoonist, I gather from another thread? How do you know so much about the violin?


I played the violin for years. My first professor wanted me to become a professional, but I just hated both the professor and the instrument, partly because my passion was science and technology, which became my profession.

Anyway, science and music fit perfectly together, as many known people exemplify. I played 5 more instruments after the violin, stopped for 20 years, and since very short I've started the bassoon. So I'm very far from playing it decently. No idea where this will land me, but I've found an instrument I really like, I train seriously for the first time, and make quick progress.

Plus, I have a passion for the instruments themselves and their acoustics.



Open Book said:


> Listening to the Bazzini now. Had not heard of the composer before.


His Calabrese is nice too. For instance Vilde Frang plays it well. But I didn't find other seducing pieces from him. I found his symphonies arch-boring. If you find a third nice piece, just tell us!

Well, having composed at least two pieces still known isn't bad. I couldn't cite from memory a second work from Carl Orff nor even Paul Dukas.


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## Open Book

This is a question about the cello but it could apply to the violin.
Berlin Philhrmonic members gave a chamber concert Saturday, played Mozart's clarinet quintet. I noticed the cellist bowing over the fingerboard a lot of the time. I'm sure he knows what he is doing but I always thought you don't get the best sound unless you bow between the end of the fingerboard and the bridge.


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## Enthalpy

This is done on all bowed strings to change the sound. The composer notes "Sul tasto" to play over the fingerboard for more mellow sound, and "Sul ponticello" to play nearer to the bridge for brilliant sound.

Bowed strings sound decently only within a domain of bow position over the string and of speed versus pressure. Initial learning consists much of squeezes until achieving this for simple notes, and further learning in achieving this for difficult scores.

Within this domain, nearing the limits lets produce a different sound quality, very useful.

Soloists tend to play nearer to the bridge to be louder and more brilliant. Unpleasant sound, but necessary to play before an orchestra.

Playing sul ponticello has a drawback: it spoils the strings with bow's rosin where one normally puts his fingers, and spoils the bow's hairs with finger fat picked from the strings, which defeats the rosin's purpose. Fat and rosin are just antagonists.

The same happens in pieces where the musician is to play higher than the fingerboard's end. This spoils the strings with finger fat where the bow's hairs must stick to the string.


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## Ellis Thompson

Something like this!


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## waldhoerer

Think there are many pieces (e.g. from Paganini) where only G-String have to be used for several bars. Its for sound-coloring...


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