# Schubert's Symphony no. 10



## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

We all know about Schubert's #8 which was left unfinished during his lifetime, and with only 2 movements is a masterpiece (IMHO). 

BUT, what is Schubert's unfinished 10th symphony? Did Schubert compose enough of a score before his death to be interpreted into a symphony or is it mostly speculation.
Mackerras and Marriner have recorded versions of #10. 

What is the real story and for those who have heard it, what are your opinions?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Wait a minute, was this piece supposed to be in D major? Does this happen to be the fragmentary Schubert symphony that Luciano Berio "restored" and composed around to create his "Schubert Rendering?"


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I think Berio's _Rendering_ is based on the 7th, and it is definitely more of a Berio piece than a Schubert.

The only part of the 10th I have heard is a solitary Adagio of about 11 minutes' duration, I remember liking it but I don't remember what it sounded like at all.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2013)

clavichorder said:


> Wait a minute, was this piece supposed to be in D major? Does this happen to be the fragmentary Schubert symphony that Luciano Berio "restored" and composed around to create his "Schubert Rendering?"


Yes and yes.

It's been finished by Brian Newbould and recorded by both Marriner and Mackerras. I've only heard what I think was the first recording of it, which is pretty scrappy, so I don't know how much my impression that it's not all that echt comes from the performance.

Still, any Schubert is better than none.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> Wait a minute, was this piece supposed to be in D major? Does this happen to be the fragmentary Schubert symphony that Luciano Berio "restored" and composed around to create his "Schubert Rendering?"


Yes, that's the one I've known to be referred to as Schubert's 10th symphony. I think it was cobbled together from a couple of symphonic fragments of his.

I've probably heard the Berio 'rendering' of it on radio, but not within recent memory. It's more a post modern take on it, he leaves blanks in the score kind of unfilled.

But the one I owned on cd was reconstructed by Pierre Bartholomee, who conducted the orchestra of Liege Belgium. There is a movement of it HERE on youtube. Its a scholarly reconstruction not an 'arty' one like the Berio. I actually attended what I think was the Australian premiere of the Newbould version. But funnily enough - if my memory is correct? - they left out one of the movements (the scherzo). Maybe the conductor of that performance thought it did not 'fit' into the symphony, did not 'belong' the work (eg. was an add-on bit/fragment). Its similar to how some conductors are willing to conduct the first movement of Mahler's 10th (the _Adagio_, which was completely scored by him as far as I know) but they refuse to conduct the rest of the symphony which was incomplete - except the short _Purgatorio_ bit.

http://www.amazon.com/Franz-Schuber...ywords=bartholomee+schubert+newbould+10+liege


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

There is a D major symphony reconstructed, but I am asking if anyone is familiar with this #10 interpretation...

http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Symp...F8&qid=1359095891&sr=1-5&keywords=schubert+10


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I've heard a couple or three Schubert "completions" (the Unfinished, the "10th", one or two more) including Newbould's. None of them were up to snuff, not even close.

Schubert left some extensive sketches for the 3rd movement of his Unfinished, but the completion demontrated (for me) pretty clearly why he left it at two movements. We can try to mine this stuff, but we're just sucking mud.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

davinci said:


> There is a D major symphony reconstructed, but I am asking if anyone is familiar with this #10 interpretation...
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Symp...F8&qid=1359095891&sr=1-5&keywords=schubert+10


It turns out I did not own that Newbould version, but the version I had was reconstructed by Pierre Bartholomee. I changed my post above to explain that. I don't own that cd anymore which is a pity, its a rare one.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I've heard a couple or three Schubert "completions" (the Unfinished, the "10th", one or two more) including Newbould's. None of them were up to snuff, not even close.
> 
> Schubert left some extensive sketches for the 3rd movement of his Unfinished, but the completion demontrated (for me) pretty clearly why he left it at two movements. We can try to mine this stuff, but we're just sucking mud.


Ken, that's the kind of info I'm looking for.

There's also a 10th included in the Marriner cycle....
http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-10-S...59097001&sr=1-2&keywords=schubert+symphony+10


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

It is interesting to note that in Schubert ''Last Symphony", he was approaching new horizon on the symphonic medium..



> Despite the title 'scherzo', the remarkable third movement, which is extremely contrapuntal in texture and includes extended fugal passages, appears to be a compound movement performing the functions of both scherzo and finale. The most fully preserved movement is the Andante, an impressively solemn, slow-march invention which has been seen as* anticipating Gustav Mahler. *There are about 30 instrumental indications in Schubert's sketch which confirm that the orchestra to be employed was similar in size to the Eighth and Ninth symphonies, with a trio of trombones which make impressive contributions in the first two movements.
> The music of the symphony *appears to some extent exploratory and contains unusual elements, notably the hybrid form of the third movement and the highly contrapuntal nature of much of the material*. Sketches for the third movement are intermingled with several counterpoint exercises, which suggests that it is related in some way to the one counterpoint lesson Schubert lived to take from Simon Sechter a few weeks before his death at 31 from typhus on November 19, 1828.


Schubert was taking lessons from Simon Sechter, and he was trying to perfect counterpoint. If he would just given enough time to live, perhaps he would create something Mahler and Bruckner would write..

Here is the second and third movement:


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

My 3rd favorite Schubert symphony. I don't consider a symphony with three movements incomplete, if it had four movements it would be better certainly.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I've heard a couple or three Schubert "completions"...None one of them were up to snuff, not even close. Schubert left some extensive sketches for the 3rd movement of his Unfinished, but the completion demonstrated (for me) pretty clearly why he left it at two movements. We can try to mine this stuff, but we're just sucking mud.


And yet I've heard similar statements (_sans_ mud metaphor!) about the final two movements of many late Schubert works, where some hear a distinct falling off in quality or relaxation of intensity from the first two movements--I've heard this stated most recently about the B-flat Piano Sonata, but also about the String Quintet, the 887 quartet, etc. etc.

In other words, I find it interesting that what you are saying about Schubert's sketches to the third mvmt. of the Unfinished has also been said about indisputably finished works.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hausmusik said:


> And yet I've heard similar statements (_sans_ mud metaphor!) about the final two movements of many late Schubert works, where some hear a distinct falling off in quality or relaxation of intensity from the first two movements--I've heard this stated most recently about the B-flat Piano Sonata, but also about the String Quintet, the 887 quartet, etc. etc.
> 
> In other words, I find it interesting that what you are saying about Schubert's sketches to the third mvmt. of the Unfinished has also been said about indisputably finished works.


Maybe that's why Schubert was studying counterpoint. After all, what did Beethoven do when he had trouble ending a work? "How the heck can I wrap up these three quartets?" "Really great adagio in this sonata, everybody's hypnotized by now. How can I close the thing out? " "Wow, that Cavatina is a real tear-jerker. What can possibly follow that?"

Answer: Write a fugue! Preferably a big noisy one. Hard to write, but easy to start. And as Schumann told Brahms, getting started is the thing.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

peeyaj said:


> It is interesting to note that in Schubert ''Last Symphony", he was approaching new horizon on the symphonic medium..
> 
> "Schubert was taking lessons from Simon Sechter, and he was trying to perfect counterpoint. If he would just given enough time to live, perhaps he would create something Mahler and Bruckner would write.. "
> Here is the second and third movement:
> ...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

peeyaj said:


> ...
> 
> Schubert was taking lessons from Simon Sechter, and he was trying to perfect counterpoint. If he would just given enough time to live, perhaps he would create something Mahler and Bruckner would write.. ...


That's interesting because Bruckner later studied under Sechter too. I definitely can hear that kind of epic feel - the "heavenly length" that Schumann talked of - in Schubert's 9th and '10th' symphonies. But I think Schubert did not study with Sechter as rigorously as Bruckner did, a quick google search has showed me info that Schubert only had one lesson with him. But I've got no time to research in more depth. Thanks for mentioning this factoid though. Sheds interesting light on what maybe could have been with Schubert.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Sid James said:


> That's interesting because Bruckner later studied under Sechter too. I definitely can hear that kind of epic feel - the "heavenly length" that Schumann talked of - in Schubert's 9th and '10th' symphonies. But I think Schubert did not study with Sechter as rigorously as Bruckner did, a quick google search has showed me info that Schubert only had one lesson with him. But I've got no time to research in more depth. Thanks for mentioning this factoid though. Sheds interesting light on what maybe could have been with Schubert.


Few people studied as long or as rigorously as Bruckner did. He was obsessive and obsequious to a fault, bowing to his teacher's wishes in not writing a note, more or less, until his studies were finished.

One definitely wonders where Schubert would have taken his enormous talents if he been allowed to live longer.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

Sid James said:


> It turns out I did not own that Newbould version, but the version I had was reconstructed by Pierre Bartholomee. I changed my post above to explain that. I don't own that cd anymore which is a pity, its a rare one.


Sid... From my research over the past few days it seems as though Bartholomee is the most "Schubert-like" of the reconstructed 10th. Too bad u already sold it...I would have bought it.

$49.99 used on Amazon


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

davinci said:


> Sid... From my research over the past few days it seems as though Bartholomee is the most "Schubert-like" of the reconstructed 10th. Too bad u already sold it...I would have bought it.
> 
> ...


True, I remember it as great. However at least there is that youtube clip of the scherzo which I put in my earlier post. I periodically cull my cd collection and at that time, I over culled. Its hard when one is prone to being quite impulsive and doing things 'in the moment.' But as I said, hearing this reconstruction live in concert here aeons ago was a thing I'll never forget. I wish it where played more often - I don't think its been done here since - I think people would like it easily if they had a chance to hear it. The tunes are ingrained in my memory.


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## BoggyB (May 6, 2016)

I have a copied, but in-excellent-condition CD of the Bartholomée version, which I would be willing to sell within the UK, if anyone is strongly desirous of it (although I don't want to go into a post office until the coronavirus has died down...)

I'm not against Bartholomée's enhancements, but I think it was a mistake to insert a scherzo from a previous incomplete symphony, into what Schubert intended to be a three-movementer.

I've just listened again. The first movement is quite good, the Andante is very good, and the finale is a bit flimsy. I remember thinking the Andante was Brucknerian, so was pleased to read in the sleeve-notes that, to quote: "[the] antiphony between instrumental groups heralds Bruckner".


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I have the Marriner and Mackerras complete 10ths and find both fascinating. There are some lovely melodies in there (the slow movement is excellent). I also have Manacorda's recording of the andante from his cycle. That's very nice too. I like Newbould's completions and think he tastefully kept in the spirit of Schubert. The same can't be said about those horrendous completions of Beethoven's 10th. However Schubert left a lot more to work with than Beethoven did. I'd heartily recommend the Marriner recording to anyone.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

I have the Bartholomée completion on LP and I loved it from the get-go. Initially I wondered if the novelty of the whole thing was partly responsible for the impression it made on me, but that's proven not to be the case over time. AFAIC it's a work of genuine stature in its own right, with a particularly striking slow movement as BoggyB says above, though I rate the other movements more highly than (s)he does. Heresy or not, I'd listen to it in preference to its predecessor all day long and twice on Sundays.


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