# Villa-Lobos fans: Your favorite works



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Villa-Lobos was considered a potentially very underrated composer according to this small sample, which sought to rid the bias of greatest composers being selected because people like returning to their niche, like Beethoven racking up frequent return votes, and instead have greatest composers be more like other composers, in that they may not get equal representation on lists due to their vast similarities to others, ie. 'greatness is going with what the other composers considered better styles, and not the styles nobody wanted to copy.' The more common composers who came up were Mahler, Stravinsky, Bruckner, Haydn, Wagner, while Villa-Lobos was just another potential name. This means, even if some of these are original, their style already was or became quite common.

Regardless of my reasons for this thread, for heavy Villa-Lobos fans, what would you say are your favorite works?

Thanks!


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Bachianas Brasileiras No. 7
Chôros No. 10
Trio for oboe, clarinet, bassoon


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## qanik (Apr 27, 2017)

my first choice is Choros 6 but next is Forests of the Amazon - how can one write about the Amazon and it's rainforest without intrinsically linking it with the music of Villa Lobos??? his music is the essence of the rainforest and its peoples, without going into all his oeuvres the cardinal work is Forest Of the Amazon ( the last major work 1956 before he died) - this is the Amazon! listen to it and you are there, birds, trees, First Nation's peoples. Read "Green Mansions" by Wm Hudson first ,ignore the movie read the book, though the book's venue is Venezuela- the music from the movie which Villa Lobos was commissioned to write ,he later re-wrote with the Amazon in mind, into this concert suite.The first recording in 1960 was performed & conducted by Villa Lobos himself with Bidu Sayao on a record from United Artists Records, later reissued in 1996 as a CD titled "Inspiration". In 1987 there was a fabulous and intimate Brasilian recording of Floresta do Amazonas of a small 5 person chamber ensemble issued on Kuarup Discos, wonderful. In 1994 this symphonic piece was performed by the Moscow Radio Symphony with Renee Fleming; the last recording I have is with Sao Paulo Symphony with Anna Korondi put out in 2010 by BIS .If this is not enough to get you into the Amazon listen to Villa Lobos, in his operetta Magdalena, especially the adaptation done by Andre Kostelanetz on his Columbia record "Music of Villa Lobos". Finally I should quickly mention other pieces of music Bachianas Brasileiaris #5, the toccata from #2 (especially the remastered Everest recording),the ballet Uirapuru,the other ballet Amazonas,and The Origin of the Amazon River. And to further underline the standing of Villa Lobos's recording of Forest of the Amazon, look how Philip Glass blatantly plagiarized music from it for his 1999 album Aquas da Amazonia.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

https://www.talkclassical.com/5117-heitor-villa-lobos-1887-a-11.html?highlight=Villa-Lo
Last post a few says ago .
Should this thread not be in the composers section by the way


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I'm a huge Villa-Lobos fan (and love Latin American classical music in general), but he's certainly one of the more significant composers to emerge from Brazil. He was to Brazil what Sibelius was to Finland. He put Brazil on the classical music map. As for favorite works, today's list would be the following (in no particular order):

_Chôros No. 6
Quinteto Instrumental for flute, violin, viola, cello and harp
Erosão
Fantasia for soprano saxophone, three horns & strings
Piano Trio No. 3_


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Rogerx said:


> Should this thread not be in the composers section by the way


Maybe if not a survey of biggest fans instead


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Well I love Brazilian music, and I love classical music, but I'm honestly not that big of a fan. Sounds too corny; kind of like a kitschy, watered-down, almost amateurish Bach. It sounds neither authentically classical nor authentically Brazilian; in fact it doesn't really sound very authentic at all IMO. I'd love to have my opinion changed, though. As it stands, the Preludes for guitar are probably my favorite work of his.

There are many Brazilian musicians who work(ed) in "popular" styles who are/were far, FAR greater than VL. Not to derail the thread, but anyone who likes the melodic qualities of VL should really explore Bossa and MPB.


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

My favorite piece by Villa-Lobos nowadays is the huge _Floresta do Amazonas_. It was composed as the soundtrack for an american film starring Audrey Hepburn, which was set in the Amazon forest, but I believe Villa-Lobos had no idea what was his job -- rumor says that he finished composing before the editing of the film, and believed that the editor should follow the piece religiously even if he had to change the movie for that, lol. The studio had to hire another composer after the fact, but, regardless, the music is glorious and ends with one of Villa-Lobos' best vocal tunes, _Melodia Sentimental_.

Besides that, when we talk about Villa-Lobos, the first cycles that come to mind are his _Choros_ and the _Bachianas Brasileiras_. Both cycles are mostly excellent from start to finish, but my personal favorites are the _Choros_ No. 6 and 12, and the _Bachianas_ No. 1, 2 and 4, but it's hard to not pick the rest since it's all so good. It should be mentioned that the most famous _Choros_ is No. 10, and the most famous _Bachiana_ is No. 5.

All that said, Villa-Lobos is so great because his oeuvre is vast and almost everything is good. I see him as a force of nature more than any other composer, like he was made of music.


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Sounds too corny; kind of like a kitschy, watered-down, almost amateurish Bach.


That's fair, but I'd guess that you don't know much of his music since Bach is far from the closest comparison despite the _Bachianas_ (which also don't sound too much like Bach for the most part). Villa-Lobos is mostly influenced by french classical music, both the past romantic music and the modernist french (from Debussy onwards, and a lot of early Stravinsky). Otherwise, Villa-Lobos' music does sound very brazilian, even popular, when he's committed to writing something brazilian -- and I say this as someone born and living here in Brazil. Note that his homeland music was not foreign to him since Villa-Lobos used to play in popular ensembles of _chorinho_ and _seresta_ when he was young, so he had "street cred", and he was almost a musicologist in order to collect popular music from the entire country, even indigenous music.

Btw, since you like MPB, some of our best and most enduring popular artists recorded Villa-Lobos' _Melodia Sentimental_ from the _Floresta do Amazonas_ that I mentioned above. This song is very sentimental (or corny, as you put it), but in line with the spirit of some of our popular music. Here's the great Ney Matogrosso:






Villa-Lobos wrote many non-sentimental works too.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Yes OK he doesn't always sound like a watered-down Bach; that was an unfair characterization. Although I was referring more to the contrapuntal elements of his work (not the stylistic elements by and large), which are present beyond the _Bachianas_. Still, I shouldn't have said that. More of a personal gripe against many composers who take Bach (for whatever reason) as their inspiration and produce kitschy pastiche. And I do like his music despite the criticism; his string quartets for instance are quite good. But I can't help but feel that he sounds a bit amateurish! And not necessarily in a good way


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Yes OK he doesn't always sound like a watered-down Bach; that was an unfair characterization. I shouldn't have said that. More of a personal gripe against many composers who take Bach (for whatever reason) as their inspiration and produce kitschy pastiche. And I do like his music despite the criticism; his string quartets for instance are quite good. But I still can't help but feel that he sounds a bit amateurish! And not necessarily in a good way


Well, I don't know how it could sound amateurish. His music sounds very skilled and virtuosistic to me in all aspects, especially considering the range of styles Villa-Lobos covered with ease, and his fundamentals were all pretty good, not to mention some innovations here and there. Maybe it's too melodic and sentimental in his most famous works? Well, I like his sense for melody, but this is inevitably subjective. But don't worry, Villa-Lobos can be all kinds of things. His symphonies are less famous precisely for being more "brainy" for the most part instead of the sweeping emotions and contagious rhythms of his greatest hits, and there are many unsentimental pieces here and there, mostly in his chamber/piano/guitar oeuvre.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

BTW this is a bit off topic but I've wondered this for a while: what's the most popular music in Brazil now? Is it rap?


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> BTW this is a bit off topic but I've wondered this for a while: what's the most popular music in Brazil now? Is it rap?


No, but we have a national rap scene too, and, obviously, we listen to american music.

I'd say the most popular genre now is _sertanejo_, which is some sort of brazilian country music. But as a genre it changed a lot since the 90s (when the trend started) because it became more pop, more urban and more party-like. In the past, _sertanejo_ was more regional (of the northeast and central regions of Brazil) and less pop despite being popular, and it was mostly dismissed by the cultural elites of our richest cities.

But we have many other popular genres too, like _pagode_ (a variation of _samba_), _brazilian funk_ and _forró_. There are some succesful pop-like artists with a brazilian flair too. In many states you'll also find another popular local music scene -- the country is big!

I like some of these genres above, but I also miss our oldschool MPB.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Can't say I am a 'heavy fan' but I like the Bachianas Brasilieras, Choros and String Quartets the most. I started to lose some interest when I listened to the symphonies and concertos. Also surprisingly his solo guitar music never clicked with me. I prefer Rodrigo, Brouwer, Dyens among others for modern guitar pieces.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Well I love Brazilian music, and I love classical music, but I'm honestly not that big of a fan. Sounds too corny; kind of like a kitschy, watered-down, almost amateurish Bach.





BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> But I can't help but feel that he sounds a bit amateurish! And not necessarily in a good way


Imagine if he had composed like Rebecca Saunders. Would you have criticized him in the same way?


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

Really like this Concerto here


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I'm not sure I understand your question. What does "like Rebecca Saunders" mean? Are you just asking if I'm a fan of Rebecca Saunders?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Livly_Station said:


> No, but we have a national rap scene too, and, obviously, we listen to american music.
> 
> I'd say the most popular genre now is _sertanejo_, which is some sort of brazilian country music. But as a genre it changed a lot since the 90s (when the trend started) because it became more pop, more urban and more party-like. In the past, _sertanejo_ was more regional (of the northeast and central regions of Brazil) and less pop despite being popular, and it was mostly dismissed by the cultural elites of our richest cities.
> 
> ...


Fantastic, your Brazilian! I have loved Brazilian music (and films) for a long, long, time and even had the good fortune to play with some Brazilians when I lived in NYC. The club Sounds of Brazil was a regular hang out. I haven't kept up, but used to follow the music scene quite closely, but kind of lost track after the 90s. *Céu* was probably one of the last new acts I liked.

Some faves, Jobim (of course), Edu Lobo, Chico Barque, Maria Bethania, Ivan Lins, Djavan, and as I said Céu. There's countless others but those are the first ones that come to mind.

But, with your post I think I'll check out some of these newer styles you mention.

*Re: Villa-Lobos*, I've never really listened to much beyond the *string quartets* and *solo guitar* music but like those works quite a lot.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I went ahead and selected some representative, extremely well characterized live video performances on You Tube for the pieces I mentioned earlier. I adore the music of Villa-Lobos, and perhaps these selections will help convince some skeptical of his greatness as a composer.

Bachianas Brasileiras No. 7 for orchestra






Chôros No. 10 for chorus and orchestra






Trio for Oboe, Clarinet, and Bassoon






Enjoy!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

As a somewhat guitar player, I remain a fan of the solo guitar music, especially the Preludes and Etudes. I didn't say my _fingers_ were fans of that music, though. Though I wish they were.









Of course, I greatly enjoy the Guitar Concerto.









My Discogs account reveals over 40 disc listings for the name Villa-Lobos, which includes the complete symphonies and string quartets. I confess a secret affection for the Harmonica Concerto. I've long counted myself a fan of "classical harmonica" (such players as Larry Adler) and the genius of a fellow named Toots Thielemans. Robert Bonfiglio proves no less than a master, too.


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

SanAntone said:


> Fantastic, your Brazilian! I have loved Brazilian music (and films) for a long, long, time and even had the good fortune to play with some Brazilians when I lived in NYC. The club Sounds of Brazil was a regular hang out. I haven't kept up, but used to follow the music scene quite closely, but kind of lost track after the 90s. *Céu* was probably one of the last new acts I liked.
> 
> Some faves, Jobim (of course), Edu Lobo, Chico Barque, Maria Bethania, Ivan Lins, Djavan, and as I said Céu. There's countless others but those are the first ones that come to mind.
> 
> But, with your post I think I'll check out some of these newer styles you mention.


Thanks. Our music is vast and full of great artists.

As for the genres that are popular now, I'm not sure you'll like it as much. Some are more pedestrian and trivial, in my opinion, at least the more radio-friendly stuff that keeps popping up, but they're not without merit too. I like pagode and funk, but sertanejo not so much (only the classic old stuff).



SONNET CLV said:


> I confess a secret affection for the Harmonica Concerto. I've long counted myself a fan of "classical harmonica" (such players as Larry Adler) and the genius of a fellow named Toots Thielemans. Robert Bonfiglio proves no less than a master, too.


Oh, I haven't listened to this one. Sounds fun.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

I would suggest the entire Choros cycle. Well worth the journey.


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## Sumantra (Feb 1, 2018)

I have just finished listening to his all five piano concertos...can't say they possess a lot of variety, but I loved listening to them nonetheless. That number 5 is a killer...


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

Sumantra said:


> I have just finished listening to his all five piano concertos...can't say they possess a lot of variety, but I loved listening to them nonetheless. That number 5 is a killer...


Right? So good!


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

So thank you so much for all your great responses so far. I can see much understated love for Villa-Lobos from that survey I mentioned, and to be truthful I am just listening... letting it sink in, and also listening to one of my favorites for the thousandth time the Eroica from Karajan '77 

I sometimes take seriously 'explanations' of why composers are great like some you gave for Villa-Lobos, but mostly for you. I don't hear explanations or critiques and then apply them to listening, because that takes away the purity of hearing and judging for myself. So I can't synthesize your impressions along with you.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Well I love Brazilian music, and I love classical music, but I'm honestly not that big of a fan. Sounds too corny; kind of like a kitschy, watered-down, almost amateurish Bach. It sounds neither authentically classical nor authentically Brazilian; in fact it doesn't really sound very authentic at all IMO. I'd love to have my opinion changed, though. As it stands, the Preludes for guitar are probably my favorite work of his.
> 
> There are many Brazilian musicians who work(ed) in "popular" styles who are/were far, FAR greater than VL. Not to derail the thread, but anyone who likes the melodic qualities of VL should really explore Bossa and MPB.


As a big VL fan I agree with this statement to a certain extent. He's a master composer who can hang with the best of them, but if looked at objectively, he lacks a certain compositional refinement found in other composers. I think this has to do with his self-taught musical background, as well as the general style he wanted to write in, opting for a looser style where he was less concerned about form. Even still, I've heard multiple pieces where he struggles to follow through on developing his ideas in a cohesive manner, often fizzling out and rambling. I think this applies to his symphonic output, for instance. To be fair, I think the numbers are working against him due to how prolific he was and when you pen over 2,000 works, not all of them are going to be home runs.

Here's my go to example of a VL piece one could describe as amateurish. There's nothing wrong with it per se, it's a pleasant listen. It just doesn't have much going for it. The string arrangement and its interplay with the bassoon is pretty bland and the themes he's working with are also banal (they're more just scale runs and triplet patterns than actual ideas, which you see elsewhere in his output). It gives off a milquetoast effect. While I'm sure it exists, another big name composer doesn't come to mind to me who wrote something as amateurish sounding as this. It doesn't sound all that far off from a piece by a talented amateur on Musescore.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Like Shostakovich, Britten, and Barber; Villa-Lobos did not stray far from a musical language that is traditional/European late Romantic/Early Modern (even if the authentic Brazilian sound is infused). And like Shostakovich, Britten, and Barber; Villa-Lobos' music enjoys popularity among the average classical music enthusiast as is evidenced by a prolific set of popular classical musicians such as Leonard Bernstein, Leopold Stokowski, Andres Segovia, Julian Bream, Jonas Starker, Neville Marriner, Pepe Romero, and the great Yo-Yo Ma; who have gone through all the trouble to learn and record his music. While the concertos are very popular and listenable, I would suggest that while the chamber works are more challenging, they are more interesting, and demonstrate a good penchant for color without having to rely upon the orchestra and just boiled down to three or four instruments.

My favorites are as follows:


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I think also what BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist was talking about comes partially from Villa Lobos' compositional MO. He was like the polar opposite of Bruckner: he didn't care to revise his works and instead preferred to write new ones as quickly as possible. That's why the Bachianas Brasilieras are riddled with score errors that need to be corrected during performances.

My favorite Villa-Lobos pieces are:
- The string quartets
- Bachianas Brasilieras (I especially love the masterful fugues) 
- Fantasia for Soprano Saxophone and Orchestra
- Cello Concerti
- Duo for Oboe and Bassoon, Trio for Oboe, Clarinet and Bassoon 
- Assobio a Jato (The Jet Whistle) for Cello and Flute
- Quintet for Flute, Violin, Viola, Cello, Harp


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

We had one of the string quartets (#14) in the weekly quartet thread several months ago. I took that opportunity to listen to all or almost all of his quartets and was pleasantly surprised. Not the greatest music but very good and surprisingly little dependent on "folkish" idioms (they have some but not obstrusively so). 
I should at some stage find the leisure for the EMI-box with the composer conducting many of his own works I only dipped into...


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Kreisler jr said:


> We had one of the string quartets (#14) in the weekly quartet thread several months ago. I took that opportunity to listen to all or almost all of his quartets and was pleasantly surprised. Not the greatest music but very good and surprisingly little dependent on "folkish" idioms (they have some but not obstrusively so).
> I should at some stage find the leisure for the EMI-box with the composer conducting many of his own works I only dipped into...


That was my pick actually back when I was active in that thread (I dipped because I don't post on TC that consistently anymore and couldn't have kept up). It had a mixed reception, which I got why, but I'm glad the pick made you go on to explore his other quartets!


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Here's my go to example of a VL piece one could describe as amateurish. There's nothing wrong with it per se, it's a pleasant listen. It just doesn't have much going for it. The string arrangement and its interplay with the bassoon is pretty bland and the themes he's working with are also banal (they're more just scale runs and triplet patterns than actual ideas, which you see elsewhere in his output). It gives off a milquetoast effect. While I'm sure it exists, another big name composer doesn't come to mind to me who wrote something as amateurish sounding as this. It doesn't sound all that far off from a piece by a talented amateur on Musescore.


Ouch. Not only is this one of my favorite Villa-Lobos pieces, it's one of my all-time favorite concertante pieces involving the bassoon! I regard it as a composition of excellent quality. I will admit it is bit subtle; its inspiration is not apparent all at once. It is rhapsodic. But I do love and admire it!

As someone who successfully* has taught more composition students than I can count, over several decades, and as someone who is frequently called upon to adjudicate composition contests, under no circumstances would I ever think the _Ciranda das sete notas_ was amateurish, the work of a student, or anything of the sort. Certainly not!

*Numerous students of mine have gone on to have successful careers in music, win awards and receive major commissions, win university positions as composers, make professional recordings, and so on.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Knorf said:


> Ouch. Not only is this one of my favorite Villa-Lobos pieces, it's one of my all-time favorite concertante pieces involving the bassoon! I regard it as a composition of excellent quality. I will admit it is bit subtle; its inspiration is not apparent all at once. It is rhapsodic. But I do love and admire it!
> 
> As someone who successfully* has taught more composition students than I can count, over several decades, and as someone who is frequently called upon to adjudicate composition contests, under no circumstances would I ever think the _Ciranda das sete notas_ was amateurish, the work of a student, or anything of the sort. Certainly not!
> 
> *Numerous students of mine have gone on to have successful careers in music, win awards and receive major commissions, win university positions as composers, make professional recordings, and so on.


Haha, I was thinking you'd chime in when I wrote that post. Sorry Knorf I just don't see it. 

It doesn't strike me as being Villa-Lobos at his most inspired, or just being really inspired in general. To me it sounds like a bunch of formulaic scale runs in lieu of thought out ideas and I find the main theme to be sort of weak. We're obviously talking about a "weak" (my words, ofc) piece by a major composer so it's not like it's devoid of merit. It has the sound of a 50s film score more than a standlone piece of concert music to my ears.


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> As a big VL fan I agree with this statement to a certain extent. He's a master composer who can hang with the best of them, but if looked at objectively, he lacks a certain compositional refinement found in other composers. I think this has to do with his self-taught musical background, as well as the general style he wanted to write in, opting for a looser style where he was less concerned about form. Even still, I've heard multiple pieces where he struggles to follow through on developing his ideas in a cohesive manner, often fizzling out and rambling. I think this applies to his symphonic output, for instance. To be fair, I think the numbers are working against him due to how prolific he was and when you pen over 2,000 works, not all of them are going to be home runs.


I think there's a semantic issue here, which is the meaning of the word "amateurish". The way you're explaining can be summed up like "his music is not like Beethoven's", which is true, but also misses the point of his compositional style, which you call "looser", but, in other words, essentially means "not german". Well, that's not how I use the word "amateurish".

And I don't think Villa-Lobos lacked instruction. He was "self-taught" for the most part of his life (although he had teachers too), but Villa-Lobos was exposed to good educational material, played/conducted himself a lot of music (and studied the scores), and from the 30s onward he was working in brazilian's music education program, which included writing his _Guia Prático_ ("Practical Guide") and other theoretical stuff.



> Here's my go to example of a VL piece one could describe as amateurish. There's nothing wrong with it per se, it's a pleasant listen. It just doesn't have much going for it. The string arrangement and its interplay with the bassoon is pretty bland and the themes he's working with are also banal (they're more just scale runs and triplet patterns than actual ideas, which you see elsewhere in his output). It gives off a milquetoast effect. While I'm sure it exists, another big name composer doesn't come to mind to me who wrote something as amateurish sounding as this. It doesn't sound all that far off from a piece by a talented amateur on Musescore.


This piece is very far from his best works. That said, I don't understand the argument that other great composers didn't have plenty of subpar trivial works too, except maybe for the ones who burned their stuff or who composed only half a dozen pieces.

Btw, regardless, I couldn't tell what's so amateurish here. Making themes strictly from scales or arpeggios is normal in classical music. Besides, this piece is titled a _Ciranda_, which are dances for children to sing while dancing in a circle, an effect he captures by giving the melody a feeling of circular motion (maybe due to the structure of 7 notes and the change to tuplets in the third beat, which he invertes in other passages?) alongside the ternary form (despite _cirandas_ usually being in 4/4), the rhythm being full of awkward accents a la Stravinsky. And I think there are all kinds of clever stuff throughout the length of this short piece, some that can't even be noticed (I heard Villa-Lobos writes his own name in the piece), not to mention the gift for bassoonists all over the world.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

^^^

I don't doubt you and Knorf have valid reasons for admiring the piece and defending its merit (not that one needs "valid reasons" to justify their enjoyment of a piece). I just think of it as one of his lesser works (as you stated yourself) that fails to impress me much. I also find the aesthetic of it to be pretty kitsch, which is obviously subjective. I also think because I've listened to a lot of his stuff, I've noticed VL's tendency to use triplet patterns and scale runs as filler, making Ciranda sound recycled to me. It strikes me as amateurish by his standards still. 

There's certainly lesser and trivial works by other composers which is not exlcusive to VL, I just haven't had the exposure to them. 

As for looser form, I've always assumed he was more directly influenced by the French impressionists (due to the looseness as well as the harmonic language and color) but sometimes he feels to be lacking in cohesion and as previously mentioned, doesn't follow through on developing his ideas very consistently in contrast to Debussy and Ravel. So I don't think of it as amateurish out of any reasons of Teutonic musical supremacy (I enjoy VL more than a lot of Beethoven, in fact). All I can offer are my subjective impressions as a listener, but I've heard pieces that start marvelously only to hit a brick wall.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Here's another example; the "composer" of this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, I'm also a big fan of contemporary and avant-garde and I strongly dislike Rebecca Saunder's music. But let's not derail the thread, please.

P.S I also think the Bubbles experiment is very obviously bad and think it's a poor example to use to push an agenda against contemporary music. But again, let's not derail the thread. There's plenty of threads to hash this out in and there'll be plenty more.


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I also think because I've listened to a lot of his stuff, I've noticed VL's tendency to use triplet patterns and scale runs as filler, making Ciranda sound recycled to me. It strikes me as amateurish by his standards still.


Honestly, I don't understand this. All composers rely on certain techniques all the time (really!), due to individual style or genre characteristics, so by this standard everything is recycled and derivative. Villa-Lobos liked tuplets (and other rhythmic patterns), so he used them, which is normal and I like. Filler?



> As for looser form, I've always assumed he was more directly influenced by the French impressionists (due to the looseness as well as the harmonic language and color) but sometimes he feels to be lacking in cohesion and as previously mentioned, doesn't follow through on developing his ideas very consistently in contrast to Debussy and Ravel. So I don't think of it as amateurish out of any reasons of Teutonic musical supremacy (I enjoy VL more than a lot of Beethoven, in fact). All I can offer are my subjective impressions as a listener, but I've heard pieces that start marvelously only to hit a brick wall.


I disagree. Some of Villa-Lobos' pieces have a more "episodic" or programatic nature, like they're metamorphosing from one section to another without classical development and recaptulation, but I wouldn't say the themes are not fully utilized, either in its respective section or because you can hear them transformed throughout the piece to bring cohesion, or because the sections share other technical similarities. For example, I believe the example you brought shows a lot of cohesion and craft, even if not the most inspired piece, in my opinion (see below*). Besides, Villa-Lobos studied the cyclic form, which he used in many of his works at different degrees.

Obviously, you're absolutely entitled to your subjective opinion that Villa-Lobos development of ideas doesn't work as well as other composers, but I think the term "amateurish" is being used rather loosely here.

Just look at this disseration on the piece: https://csuepress.columbusstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1308&context=theses_dissertations


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I'l give it a read. It probably won't change my personal feelings about the piece but it will give me a deeper appreciation of why you and Knorf admire.

I can't continue the debate (others can feel free too) as I can only offer subjective impressions from this point which will become harder to effectively articulate. I see all your counterpoints as valid and you're also obviously more knowledgable about him. With that being said I still stand by my personal sentiments that while he's a composer I love, I I can't help but feel he has these certain shortcomings. But in the end, it's about appreciating what's there and not nitpicking what's not. :cheers:


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

There's no disputing differences of taste.

It's the "amateurish" label/epithet I'm pushing back against. There's no meaningful definition of the word "amateur" that applies to Villa-Lobos, neither in actuality nor in affect. 

He definitely strove to develop a style of musical logic that veered away from Germanic models, something more cyclical and organic, and he did so very consciously and methodically. It is true that he wrote quickly and prolifically, and could have used a better editor. But the inspiration and quality of content are there. 

One thing that I think is impossible to dispute: Villa-Lobos was incredibly deft in his use of instruments. Messiaen called him the 20th century's greatest orchestrator, and I think he has a point.


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