# The Unkindest Cut(s) Of All.



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Cuts in opera are anathema to me. If a composer has invested blood, sweat and tears in creating a piece then what gives some jumped-up regie director or hack kapellmeister the right to decide that certain portions of the work can be excluded. This even happens at Bayreuth where you would think Wagner's works would be sacrosanct. 

It rarely, if ever happens, in non operatic music. Imagine if some nitwit conductor thought - You know there are far too many movements in Mahler Seven. I think I'll just cut the two Nachtmusiks. They just slow the action up. Actually that Ode to Joy movement at the end of Beethoven's ninth. What's that all about? That's out too.'

Too many bars in Shostakovich's fifteenth string quartet? Chop out a few. Who will notice, who will care?

Thoughts anyone?


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Some times when I watch Star Trek The Motion Picture, I fast forward through the V'Ger sequences.

I guess the validity of the cut depends on the artistic integrity and quality of execution of the piece? I just watched a Handel opera (Ariodante) in Chicago that I would have cut by one hour at least.

I would never cut Beethoven, though, or even Bruckner.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Erich Leinsdorf wrote a terrific book, The Composer's Advocate, where he pleads with performers and conductors to play what the composer wrote and wanted. I personally loathe cuts and rearrangements. Play it the way the man wrote it! So many otherwise fine recordings have been ruined by them. Contrary to what you wrote, in fact cuts in non-operatic music are very common.

Ormandy's Scheherazade. Reiner's "1812". Almost everyone's Rachmaninoff 2nd prior to 1970. Toscanini's recording of Tchaikovsky's Manfred. Gliere's Ilya Murometz done by Ormandy, Stokowski, and many others. Every recording of Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto using the Auer edition. Charles Gerhardt's Hanson 2nd. Bernstein's first recording of Shostakovich 7, Ives 2. I could go on.

There are a couple of exceptions: first movement repeats, especially in romantic symphonies like those of Brahms and Dvorak are just not needed. And Gotterdamerung. That opera is long....too long. And some of the traditional cuts that even Mahler used are ok. Same with Meistersinger.

So, when it comes to cuts:

Who will notice? I will. People who know, respect, and love a work will (or should!)
Who will care? I will. Tonight I'm playing in a concert that I wish I had never signed up for - the conductor has decided that the Schumann 1st is too long, and is omitting the Scherzo. Horrible decision. Same bozo made a huge cut in Bernstein's Symphonic Dances from West Side Story, mostly because he couldn't manage the meter changes.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I believe that when a composer has written his music, it is sacred. Your examples of omitting things are sacrilegious! I'm not really religious, but with music...


----------



## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

This is a different issue now than it was 100 years ago. Mahler was a purist by the standards of late 19th/early 20th century Vienna (he conducted the first uncut Viennese performances of several Wagner operas as director at the Hofoper), but he had no qualms about cutting, retouching, or even recomposing sections of music if he thought they didn't serve the larger dramatic goal (he didn't do it as often in symphonic music but I know he made several cuts in Bruckner -- most notable in the Sixth, IIRC). 

Of course, in those days you couldn't learn a piece from a recording and so more than likely the average audience member wouldn't even know there were cuts, and might appreciate the work more because of Mahler's judicious edits and dramatic sense. But today, it is far more possible for people to notice, and knowing that a work has been modified doesn't seem to sit well with a lot of modern audiences (I know it would bother me, even leaving out exposition repeats in something like Brahms). But it's also important to remember that Mahler left many works untouched, and a lot of those that he edited were really subpar (Siegfried Wagner's work, for example) and I've no doubt that he improved them. I don't think it's quite so simple as "it's good/it's bad."


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I remember a recording of the Mahler First from the '60s by a reputable conductor and orchestra (I've long since forgotten who) that had an obvious cut (for those who know the work) in the last movement, that few remarked upon as remarkable (this was just before the revival).

As for Leinsdorf -- he was a crusty, knowledgeable, and very opinionated conductor whose performances were all over the map, but that book is a treasure that all would-be conductors (and conductor appreciators) should read.


----------



## Anna Strobl (Mar 13, 2019)

Ha! I thought this topic was about how some young boys maintained their stellar sopranos back in the day ...

Peer Gynt comes to mind. One never hears (hardly ever) the complete 90+ minutes


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Scherchen's cuts in Mahler's 5th are some of the most notorious. Applies to all his recordings of the work. But omitting a movement in a Schumann symphony as described above takes the prize. Some sort of public action should take place ...


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Omitting a Schumann Scherzo is a crime against humanity.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

If cuts are bad enough, what about these reorchestrations? I don't want Rimsky's wishes imposed on Boris Godunov. I don't want Mozart's on Handel's Messiah (or Beecham's for that matter).

And what about insertions. In a live performance if they need 15 minutes to change Fidelio to the last scene, then I guess the Leonore overture is better than silence, but could they not also have a late intermission? Beethoven wanted the joyus duet in the prison to end and then the finale to start in no more than 7 seconds, not 15 minutes! At least if they do the overture in a live performance, filming of it should delete it or allow the DVD user to easly skip it. I have Handbrake and the overture insert in the Bernstein DVD is one chapter so I just ripped up to it and then again the finale. It plays as two files seamlessly on VLC Media Player, but for one problem: Bernstein changed the last note of the duet to segway into the overture and that I cannot fix, but thankfully, not being much for reading music, it is barely noticeable to me.


----------



## Anna Strobl (Mar 13, 2019)

joen_cph said:


> Scherchen's cuts in Mahler's 5th are some of the most notorious. Applies to all his recordings of the work. But omitting a movement in a Schumann symphony as described above takes the prize. Some sort of public action should take place ...


Scherchen played viola under Mahler in 1907. At least he worked with Mahler and had some idea of his sound and conducting style. Plus Mahler himself notorious for cutting and re orchestrating, ala Beethoven 9.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Now there's a conundrum - Boris Godunov. I grew up listening to - and loving dearly - the Rimsky orchestration. Then came along the original versions. No, Mussorgsky was not a skilled orchestrator, and it shows clearly. Nonetheless, I like those, too. So now I have three Boris's to enjoy. Khovanschina, same issue.

The Messiah arrangements: there is NO authentic Messiah. Handel's scoring is very nebulous and he himself used whatever forces were available. And for larger halls and choirs, using a small baroque orchestra just doesn't work, which is why Mozart, among others, amended the original. Personally, Messiah is just not to my taste (way too early) and the enhanced work of Mozart, and later Prout, seem ok. The Beecham recording uses a version done by Eugene Goosens - and it is over the top, but so much fun. There's even a newer, less respectful one from Andrew Davis.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Cuts in operas are analagous to cuts in plays and are not considered in the same way as cuts to pure music.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

What about Beethoven symphonies where I have heard people on TC talk about not playing all the repeats? Not sure what that is but assume there are segments of music that Beethoven specified should repeat during the performance.


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Anna Strobl said:


> Scherchen played viola under Mahler in 1907. At least he worked with Mahler and had some idea of his sound and conducting style. Plus Mahler himself notorious for cutting and re orchestrating, ala Beethoven 9.


Indeed, I'm partly a fan and have almost all his recordings, including an Italian performance of the 5th, but those cuts in the 5th ruin the overall picture ...

Since you know much about him, have you ever encountered material about his early concerts in the USSR? Gojowy specifies some in a German book about early Russian avantgarde (Sorry, I know it's off topic and will limit comments here  )


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mbhaub said:


> The Messiah arrangements: there is NO authentic Messiah. Handel's scoring is very nebulous and he himself used whatever forces were available.


Perhaps not, but there are several different Messiah performances on CD that represent different times in Handel's life, including the all male set and the Dublin performance. But I think Mozart goes beyond because at least these others are performances that Handel created, or reconstructions of what Handel did.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Stokowski was famous for cuts.


----------



## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

Cuts don’t bother me nearly as much as people who play the whole score but have nothing to say about the music. Karajan always left out the Fointainebleau bit from Don Carlos. You immediately forgive him when you hear what comes after though. Rather a few cuts, than all those who play the whole thing but fail to convince us as to the reason for it.


----------



## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> Cuts in opera are anathema to me. If a composer has invested blood, sweat and tears in creating a piece then what gives some jumped-up regie director or hack kapellmeister the right to decide that certain portions of the work can be excluded. This even happens at Bayreuth where you would think Wagner's works would be sacrosanct.
> 
> It rarely, if ever happens, in non operatic music. Imagine if some nitwit conductor thought - You know there are far too many movements in Mahler Seven. I think I'll just cut the two Nachtmusiks. They just slow the action up. Actually that Ode to Joy movement at the end of Beethoven's ninth. What's that all about? That's out too.'
> 
> ...


As you know, there is a long tradition of editing or even cutting out portions of long operas and symphonies in performance. Composers in the olden days certainly knew this would happen, and even did it to their own works on occasion, as you also know. (Your posts here make clear you are far from a classical music beginner.) The idea of striving for "authenticity", including by strictly observing the score, didn't really gain momentum until the mid-20th century. I happen to be a pro-authenticity guy in general, but you know the old saw: Every generalization is wrong, including this one.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Fritz Kobus said:


> What about Beethoven symphonies where I have heard people on TC talk about not playing all the repeats? Not sure what that is but assume there are segments of music that Beethoven specified should repeat during the performance.


Beethoven specifies repeats throughout his symphonies. I believe most of his first movement expositions are marked for repeat. Many repeats were not observed in recordings prior to the arrival of the CD so they would better fit on LPs. Now they seem more commonly observed.

Some of his repeats I can do without. If all the repeats marked in the Scherzo of the Choral Symphony are observed, that movement becomes longer than the succeeding Adagio. And that's just not right!


----------



## Anna Strobl (Mar 13, 2019)

joen_cph said:


> Indeed, I'm partly a fan and have almost all his recordings, including an Italian performance of the 5th, but those cuts in the 5th ruin the overall picture ...
> 
> Since you know much about him, have you ever encountered material about his early concerts in the USSR? Gojowy specifies some in a German book about early Russian avantgarde (Sorry, I know it's off topic and will limit comments here  )


That I do not know about specifically. But I do know he was he was interred in Russia during WWI and wrote a string quartet with modern overtones during that period. I do know his Shoenberg, Berg, Xenakis, Nono and read of his experimentations also somewhere. He was a champion of modern music right out of the gate. Also his Chinese wife was a composer of amalgams of Eastern/Western music as I recollect.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

fluteman said:


> As you know, there is a long tradition of editing or even cutting out portions of long operas and symphonies in performance. Composers in the olden days certainly knew this would happen, and even did it to their own works on occasion, as you also know. (Your posts here make clear you are far from a classical music beginner.) The idea of striving for "authenticity", including by strictly observing the score, didn't really gain momentum until the mid-20th century. I happen to be a pro-authenticity guy in general, but you know the old saw: Every generalization is wrong, including this one.


Yes, I am aware of the cutting tradition. I don't like it personally and I was curious to know others thoughts on the matter. As to composers knowing about and indeed sanctioning cuts to their own material, I wonder how much pressure was brought to bear on them by producers who may have suggested that in order to have the work in question performed at all, a little pruning was required!

You know, pipers and tunes!

Apologies for the long sentence but I was on a roll!!


----------



## Dorsetmike (Sep 26, 2018)

Radio frequently annoys me by playing just one movement of a work. As for some oboe player murdering numerous vocal works ---that gets me reaching for the off switch; the composers must be turning in their graves


----------



## StrangeHocusPocus (Mar 8, 2019)

Was not gesualdo known for cuts too...........................


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

There are some significant (and bloody ) cuts in Sweeny Todd.


----------

