# Music and Home!!



## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

I've asked this question in multiple polls and threads regarding favourite musical nations but no-ones ever answered. So I'll make a new thread.

Do you feel drawn to the music of your homeland. Does it speak to you or for you. Or are you truly international when it comes to music. Or do you feel drawn to a music of another country. Do you want to visit that country and marry someone. Do you like the big names which just happen to be Austro-Germanic.

I am an unashamed Anglophile.
I feel different emotions when listening to English music. It penetrates to my heart like no other. That's not to say I don't love lots of other nations music of course.

It wasn't always like this. It used to be Russia and I always dreamt I'd learn the language, go there and live etc

Do Americans like Copeland more than others?
Do Estonians hold a deeper love for Arvo Part?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I'm definitely an internationalist - in my favourite composers or works I don't appear to prefer one nation over another.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

As regards classical music, oh I *do* like a nice ordered tune, and the makers of such pieces apparently reside in France, Germany, Austria, or medieval England.

As regards 'music from the homeland' - I am half English and half Scottish, and grew up in the North of England. The music I grew up with, though, was largely Scottish and on the threshold of old age, I find that the pipes, the strathspeys, the reels and Highland jigs really stir my blood now. And thus my circle ends where it began.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

I'm American and I don't favor Copland over Mahler. 

Overall, as far as classical music relates I'm more a fan of the Austrian-German composers. I'm not a huge fan of American composers. There are some that I really like, but nowhere near the Germans.

When I think of "American Music" I think of the Blues...if it weren't for Robert Johnson, T-Bone Walker, Memphis Minnie, Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, Willie Dixon, Sonny Boy Williamson, Elmore James, Freddie King, Albert King, Albert Collins, B.B. King, etc.

Those are the folks that brought about Elvis, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin...Rock 'N' Roll in general. When I'm playing my guitar I don't feel patriotic or anything like that but when I'm playing the Blues I definitely feel it deep inside and feel a deep appreciation for those Bluesmen of yesteryear who came before me.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Music of the homeland - surprising how many people are drawn by the Grandeur and Beauty of Scotland!

Bruch, Mendehlson (Symphony 3), Dvorak (Scottish Dances, Op. 41), Malcolm Arnold (Four Scottish Dances), Schubert, Beethoven, Hummel and Chopin (Ecossaises)

I've even started a thread on the glories of Scottish music. Then there is the delightful folk fiddling, the dance music both highland and country, and the singing.

There is no other country that can compare as a musical inspiration to Scotland. :tiphat:


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I maybe try to listen to a bit more American music than I otherwise would, but I don't know if it "speaks to me" in any particular way.

As a side note, I hate the word "homeland." It's a European word, a bit like the (even worse) "Fatherland." I don't think the US should ever be referred to as a homeland. It's not what this country is about.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

The *vast* majority of my favourite composers are of the German tongue, like me, or have made their careers in that cultural milieu. I do feel drawn to the music of my culture and heritage, but not to the exclusion of other music. Also, as a Canadian, I feel an affinity for the French and have actively pursued an appreciation of French music.

The only composer of note of my Canadian birth- and homeland is Murray Schafer. I believe I heard one work back in the '70s on a compilation disc. As his works don't appear on the major labels, they are out of my price range, but should I find his instrumental works at the used CD shop, they will be my *first* trade-in choices!

I consider my scope to be inclusive and *international*. Although I have a preference for what I call a 'European sound', I am a big fan and collector of other 'classical' art musics: Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Balinese, Turkish, Arabic, Persian and Indian. My taste is primarily for instrumental music, so language does not taint my appreciation. I collect and listen to the great works by the great composers without prejudice of their cultural heritage.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I am rather fond of lots of folk music, from various parts of the world, except that of my own country, most of which I detest. And our local classical composers are for the most part not much to write home about either. Culturally speaking I seem to live on the wrong continent, but I still can't see myself ever being happy anywhere else.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2013)

MagneticGhost said:


> Do Americans like Copeland more than others?


I doubt if many people from the US know Copeland. Even brotagonist, from Canada, seems not to know him.

Copland, sure. Aaron Copland is fairly well-known in the US, though he has slipped from his former eminence as the typical "American" composer in the past twenty years or so.

But Darren? He's Canadian. Mostly when people say "American," they mean "from the US."

And mostly when people misspell Aaron's last name, they end up spelling Darren's last name.

As for Canadian composers of note, I'd like some notice as to what "of note" means, since my collection is full of Canadian composers. They seem pretty noteworthy to me. And since I run across their music quite often in Europe, I'd say that Europeans think they're noteworthy, too.

There is a strong sense among US posters that "noteworthy" means "well-known in the US." I wonder if that's what our Canadian colleague means as well?


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## julianoq (Jan 29, 2013)

I am totally international regarding music. I like folk music of different regions, but I think of humanity as a whole. I don't feel anything different when listening to Villa-Lobos, I like his music but I like many other composers before him. My favorite composer at the moment is Sibelius, and Finland doesn't have much in common with my country


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## tovaris (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm hungarian and whilst I love a lot kind of music, I prefer austro-german and russian. But there is a special place in my heart for Bartok and for other hungarians - Kodaly, Lajtha, Dohnanyi.


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

I can't say I'm a big fan of much of British classical music, especially the early 20C stuff. Just not my style. I prefer French or German.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

GreenMamba said:


> I maybe try to listen to a bit more American music than I otherwise would, but I don't know if it "speaks to me" in any particular way.
> 
> As a side note, I hate the word "homeland." It's a European word, a bit like the (even worse) "Fatherland." I don't think the US should ever be referred to as a homeland. It's not what this country is about.


Homeland is not a European word,how do you describe your country of birth ?
Your problem with Fatherland is because of the WW11 conections in comics and films.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

For folk and trad music, Ireland is the place to be. But classical? Well, we have a few, like John Field, but I wouldn't single them out because they're Irish.

I do happen to love the performances of Finghin Collins, but that's because he's a great performer, first and foremost...


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

some guy said:


> Even brotagonist, from Canada, seems not to know him.


Wrong. I do know Copland, although I had written him off as a rather boring populist composer decades ago. My interest, to my surprise, has recently been renewed by the acquisition of a sensational recording of his early music.



some guy said:


> I'd like some notice as to what "of note" means...


You are reading too literally. This is a casual chat forum, not a serious peer-reviewed journal ;-)

I was trying to suggest a long-established composer of continued and lasting acclaim known throughout the world. He is almost certainly the most celebrated and recognized Canadian composer in history. See R._Murray_Schafer.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2013)

I enjoy classical music from many places - French, Russian, Spanish, Latin American, etc. I'm not overly enamored with the Austro-German tradition, and I've never been especially fond of American composers, excepting Gershwin. 

I suppose I have a slight bias against American classical music, but frankly I don't think the US repertoire is a strong as that from other countries.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

I am not particularly drawn to American music simply because it is my homeland. Some composers I like, others I don't. It's just whatever suits my fancy. I'm not particularly fond of Copland or Cage, but I love Barber and Ives.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Szymanowski and Lutosławski are among my favourites! I am quite fond of Chopin, too.

Best regards, Dr


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

GreenMamba said:


> I maybe try to listen to a bit more American music than I otherwise would, but I don't know if it "speaks to me" in any particular way.
> 
> As a side note, I hate the word "homeland." It's a European word, a bit like the (even worse) "Fatherland." I don't think the US should ever be referred to as a homeland. It's not what this country is about.


Just to add to my last post ,what about the U.S.Department of Homeland Security ?


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

brianvds said:


> I am rather fond of lots of folk music, from various parts of the world, except that of my own country, most of which I detest. And our local classical composers are for the most part not much to write home about either. Culturally speaking I seem to live on the wrong continent, but I still can't see myself ever being happy anywhere else.


Not exactly "folk" but what about Miriam Makeba and Ladysmith Black Mambazo?


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Kieran said:


> For folk and trad music, Ireland is the place to be.


No, once they get any good, they up and leave! Michael Coleman, Martin Hayes, Christy Moore, Andy Irvine on and on .. all exiles. I think Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann puts them off.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I can say with certainty, though I am American I do not enjoy American (North or South continent) music as much as "old world" music. I'm not sure why. Maybe I am too close to it. Even in rock and pop I enjoy the music of England far more than Americana, the exception being some Canadian artists who are closer in temperament to the UK (Rush, Gordon Lightfoot, etc.)

However I enjoy South American works a bit less then North American. Again I'm not sure why. I'm just not as much into Latin / Spanish oriented music to use a very broad generalization. On the other hand I like D. Scarlatti who was Spanish influenced, so there's no rhyme or reason to my tastes.


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## Sudonim (Feb 28, 2013)

It makes absolutely no difference to me. I like Copland okay, Gershwin too (though of course he's not strictly a "classical" composer), and what I've heard of Ives so far (not much, more to come), and so on. But, like realdealblues, I think America's greatest contributions to music have been in other genres: jazz, blues, country, and so on. That's what I think of when I think of "American music." Ask me who the greatest American composer is and I'll tell you Duke Ellington. 

In classical music I'll generally take the foreigners. 

Your mileage may vary, of course. I can easily see myself feeling differently if I were Finnish or Czech.


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

No.

Unless it turns out my dad isn't actually my dad and my real dad is Russian that is.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

MagneticGhost said:


> Do you feel drawn to the music of your homeland. Does it speak to you or for you


There isn't any native classical music where I am from. However, considering the fact that I often feel more German than Belarusian, in this case the answer is yes, _yes_ and *YES*!!!



> Or are you truly international when it comes to music.


I don't really like the words "truly international", they sound too much like "multiculturalist". I have great respect for some cultures and want to have nothing to do with some others, the same is true about musical traditions.



> Or do you feel drawn to a music of another country


Yes, the one that has given the world Bach, Beethoven, Wagner, Mozart (if you count Austria in), Schumann, Schubert, Bruckner, Richard Strauss and many, many more. Of course it does not mean I am not exploring other nations' musical heritage, but the abovementioned one speaks to me in a way that is quite special and precious.



> Do you want to visit that country and marry someone.


I visit the country at least once a year, and yes, I would love to marry a certain _someone_, a certain fine Teutonic gentleman who is probably reading my writings right now. 



> Do you like the big names which just happen to be Austro-Germanic.


I love the big names partly precisely for the reason that they were Austro-Germanic and composed music in their native language and (some of them) in the spirit and passion of their native Romantic tradition. I have also introduced a friend of mine, another passionate Germanophile to Wagner (and through him to the world of classical) over the same angle of "this is the very best of German culture in existence".



> I am an unashamed Anglophile.
> I feel different emotions when listening to English music. It penetrates to my heart like no other. That's not to say I don't love lots of other nations music of course.


I think that's great, and I also think English music is great as well, classical as well as non-classical.



> It wasn't always like this. It used to be Russia and I always dreamt I'd learn the language, go there and live etc


I am still learning the language (it is pretty much a life-long process), I've got a job where I have to use it a lot, I come home from a day of doing logistics with Germans and other Europeans and have my strength restored by Beethoven or Wagner or any other one of the great masters. Life is good!


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

moody said:


> Just to add to my last post ,what about the U.S.Department of Homeland Security ?


There was, in fact, push back against the name across the left and the right (Peggy Noonan: "When you say you love America, you're not saying our mud is better than the other guy's mud."). Alas, the good guys seem to be losing the battle. I don't recall Americans referring to the US as their "homeland" prior to the formation of DHS.

Wikipedia's description shows why it really isn't natural for Americans. The word can be used simply to refer to where you were born, but the stuff about an ethnic group having a "long history" is all wrong for the US, which has a short history and is ethnically varied.



> A homeland (rel. country of origin and native land) is the concept of the place (cultural geography)* to which an ethnic group holds a long history and a deep cultural association with* -the country in which a particular national identity began. As a common noun, it simply connotes the country of one's origin. When used as a proper noun, the word, as well as its equivalents in other languages often have ethnic nationalist connotations. A homeland may also be referred to as a fatherland, a motherland, or a mother country, depending on the culture and language of the nationality in question


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Ah, yes, and I like "homeland" better than "fatherland", because, you see, one's home is not always the same place where his fathers have lived.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Taggart said:


> No, once they get any good, they up and leave! Michael Coleman, Martin Hayes, Christy Moore, Andy Irvine on and on .. all exiles. I think Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann puts them off.


They don't 'leave', they export the music! Now it can be heard in Irish pubs and festivals all round the world...


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Ah, yes, and I like "homeland" better than "fatherland", because, you see, one's home is not always the same place where his fathers have lived.


I think you are going off in the wrong direction. Vaterland is more the land of our fathers rather than the land of my father.
But if you are now living in a country that is not of your family's then homeland it has to be.


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## ClassicalCumulus (Jul 24, 2013)

I definitely do not favor American music over others, although, I believe if I was overseas and heard _Appalachian Spring_ or _Rodeo_, I bet I would get pretty nostalgic and miss America a little more than before, but other than that, I'd consider myself a cosmopolitan.

I suppose I'm thinking of classical music in the "traditional" sense.. Due to the fact some of my favorite composers are minimalists (Reich & Glass); who happen to be American. Interesting question.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Kieran said:


> For folk and trad music, Ireland is the place to be. But classical? Well, we have a few, like John Field, but I wouldn't single them out because they're Irish.
> 
> I do happen to love the performances of Finghin Collins, but that's because he's a great performer, first and foremost...


I am in fact listening to his new Mozart album while reading this thread.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> I am in fact listening to his new Mozart album while reading this thread.


It has #20 on it and I was in the audience the night he recorded it! He composed the cadenzas himself and was interviewed in an upstairs room in the National Concert hall, with a piano to show us examples, before the show.

Hope you're enjoying the disc! :tiphat:


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

My listening is "international" but often to the exclusion of the music of my homeland, England. I find our folk music maddeningly dull and much of our classical music highly uninteresting, qualities which I often find in our people as well. In spite of that I am a devoted patriot; I believe that England is a great country, but we have become complacent and allowed ourselves to be led down the wrong path by the political elite. That's a discussion for elsewhere but I just thought it was worth mentioning—a lot of things I say are misperceived as being anti-English so people are often confused when I tell them I love my country.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> My listening is "international" but often to the exclusion of the music of my homeland, England. I find our folk music maddeningly dull and much of our classical music highly uninteresting, qualities which I often find in our people as well. In spite of that I am a devoted patriot; I believe that England is a great country, but we have become complacent and allowed ourselves to be led down the wrong path by the political elite. That's a discussion for elsewhere but I just thought it was worth mentioning-a lot of things I say are misperceived as being anti-English so people are often confused when I tell them I love my country.


I hope you won't mind if I substitute politicians as there is nothing in the least elite about them.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Crudblud said:


> I find our folk music maddeningly dull and much of our classical music highly uninteresting, qualities which I often find in our people as well.


I have just finished The Lives and Times of the Great Composers by Michael Steen and he has a lovely quote about English music:



> "The stolid, worthy, mercantile middle classes predominant in the United Kingdom preferred their roast beef and mutton to their music. Mutton and music do not mix well, unless the music comprises the solid, strong oratorios of Handel and Mendelssohn sung in local choral societies."


Folk music is something of an acquired taste but there have been so many groups playing it both straight and fancy that you should be able to find _something_ which is not dull - albeit not politically correct - "John Peel" or "Dido, Bendigo" are fairly rousing. As somebody remarked: "all music is folk music - I ain't seen no horse singing!"


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I can't say I prefer classical music from my homeland to others. There was a phase I went through where I collected as many of the Naxos American composers as I could, but thinking back, I don't listen to a lot of them on a frequent basis. 

However, my grandparents came over from the Netherlands, and I have noticed I am fascinated with the Renaissance composers from that region. 

But mostly, I favor composers who connect with me on a spiritual basis, and that tends to transcend national borders.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Crudblud said:


> My... homeland, England. I find our folk music maddeningly dull...


I never expected to enjoy it, but Steeleye Span have opened my ears. I don't listen to them often, but I have come to be able to admit that they are good, so good that I recently purchased the reissues of their first 8 albums (5 CDs). Their version of _Cam ye o'er frae France_ is a spine tingler!


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Well, we have Ginastera. I think he's a very good composer.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

aleazk said:


> Well, we have Ginastera. I think he's a very good composer.


I had never heard of him, but I have been a long-time fan of another Argentinian composer, Mauricio Kagel.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

brotagonist said:


> I had never heard of him, but I have been a long-time fan of another Argentinian composer, Mauricio Kagel.


I've seen him referred to as the Argentine Bartók, a comparison which I think is not too far off.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I'm an American, and probably 90-95% of what I listen to is not American. To be honest, we don't really have much going for us when it comes to Classical. Ives, Copland, Gershwin, Barber...that's about it. There are others, but they're hardly worth mentioning next to the likes of Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, etc. I do listen to jazz, which as they say is the only original American artform. But I generally stick with Great Britain and mainland Europe, thank you very much. I'm a pretty big Anglophile, so I like my Vaughan Williams, Elgar, Britten, Delius, and Bax on a regular basis.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

brotagonist said:


> I had never heard of him, but I have been a long-time fan of another Argentinian composer, Mauricio Kagel.


Yeah, Kagel is good too. Was a big name in the post-war avant-garde in germany, with Stockhausen et al.
But I would count Kagel as a german! (in the best and sincere sense!, I'm not exiling him! ). He spent all his career there.
Ginastera is more "linked" to the country. And was a vanguardist too!.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

aleazk said:


> I would count Kagel as a german!. He spent all his career there.


I was trying to classify my collection recently, when I encountered this very problem.

Are Schönberg, Hindemith and Weill American? I believe they spent the latter parts of their careers in the States. Are Ligeti and Bartók German? Didn't they spend their careers in the German-speaking part of Europe? Is Händel British? He lived there. Is Xenakis French?

I kind of concluded that the place where the composer established his career and the culture in which he worked was the dominant factor, but the language the composer used in his work seemed to also have a bearing... Finally, there were so many contradictions that I gave on categorizing by ethnicity, nationality, language or primary cultural domain.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

brotagonist said:


> I was trying to classify my collection recently, when I encountered this very problem.
> 
> Are Schönberg, Hindemith and Weill American? I believe they spent the latter parts of their careers in the States. Are Ligeti and Bartók German? Didn't they spend their careers in the German-speaking part of Europe? Is Händel British? He lived there. Is Xenakis French?
> 
> I kind of concluded that the place where the composer established his career and the culture in which he worked was the dominant factor, but the language the composer used in his work seemed to also have a bearing... Finally, there were so many contradictions that I gave on categorizing by ethnicity, nationality, language or primary cultural domain.


Ligeti for instance considered himself as "citizen of the world".
I remember when Kagel came back in 2006 after 40 years or so. He spoke in spanish, of course, but his accent was like the one of a german trying to speak spanish!. The same thing I have noticed with Barenboim and Argerich.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

I was born an American but I can't honestly say I have a passion for American music or feel any special affinity or devotion to it. I'm very international in my music listening and collecting. I think the U.S. has produced some wonderful composers but my personal taste goes more toward Scandinavian, Russian, German and British composers.

Kevin


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

brotagonist said:


> I was trying to classify my collection recently, when I encountered this very problem.
> 
> Are Schönberg, Hindemith and Weill American? I believe they spent the latter parts of their careers in the States. Are Ligeti and Bartók German? Didn't they spend their careers in the German-speaking part of Europe? Is Händel British? He lived there. Is Xenakis French?
> 
> I kind of concluded that the place where the composer established his career and the culture in which he worked was the dominant factor, but the language the composer used in his work seemed to also have a bearing... Finally, there were so many contradictions that I gave on categorizing by ethnicity, nationality, language or primary cultural domain.


Handel--no umlaut--1685-1759 was a German born British composer.
He lived in London for 36 years and took British citizenship in 1727.
This is common knowledge.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

moody said:


> Handel--no umlaut--1685-1759 was a German born British composer.
> He lived in London for 36 years and took British citizenship in 1727.
> This is common knowledge.


Bad choice. These facts were known to me.

I was trying to illustrate the difficulties I had had when trying to categorize my collection. aleazk appeared to have understood, but I will try to explain. My problems began like this...

Should I list Schönberg as German according to ethnicity and/or language, as Austrian according to nationality, or as American, since he moved there, might have taken the American citizenship, and continued to be professionally active there? Xenakis is considered French, but the majority of his works have Greek titles and Greek texts. Ligeti lived and worked in Germany or Austria and was involved in the German-language cultural scene, not the Hungarian. These problems also extend to other genres, like rock. Nick Cave was Australian, but worked and achieved fame in Britain and Germany. Nico was German, but sang only about 5 songs in German, had an English-language career, got famous in the States, but was always thought of as a European artist, but had little to do with Germany, etc.

So, my problem was: which single criterion could I use to assign some linguistic, ethnic, national or cultural label to an artist? My conclusion was that no one label would hold true in all cases. I would be forced to make too many exceptions and contradictions for the label to be meaningful, so I gave it up.

So there ;-)


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

brotagonist said:


> I never expected to enjoy it, but Steeleye Span have opened my ears. I don't listen to them often, but I have come to be able to admit that they are good, so good that I recently purchased the reissues of their first 8 albums (5 CDs). Their version of _Cam ye o'er frae France_ is a spine tingler!


Hail, fellow-Steeleye-Span fan! Their work is technically 'progressive' folk, but I love most folk music, electric or acoustic. Progressive folk is 'my' era & should be listened to while dressed in a kaftan and sandals, burning a couple of joss sticks, and lolling on a crimson velvet cushion.

Taggart & I have all Span's earlier stuff & have seen them play two or three times too. Maddy Prior's voice when she was young is so pure, it does indeed tingle your spine. My absolute favourite of theirs is 'Thomas the Rhymer', though. The tune - the singing - the instrumental - and the absolutely fabulous medieval ballad that it's based on.*

It helps that I did a research degree on the traditional ballads, of course! 

* The choice of the three roads:

See ye not yon narrow path
So thick beset with thorns & briars?
That is the path of righteousness,
Though after it but few inquires.

See ye not yon broad broad road
That lies across the lily leven?
That is the path of wickedness,
Though some call it the road to heaven.

See ye not yon bonny, bonny road
The winds across the ferny brae?
That is the road to fair Elfland
Where you and I this night maun gae.

Now *those* lyrics tingle my spine, every time! (*spingle* me?)


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

brotagonist said:


> Bad choice. These facts were known to me.
> 
> I was trying to illustrate the difficulties I had had when trying to categorize my collection. aleazk appeared to have understood, but I will try to explain. My problems began like this...
> 
> ...


I think you made the right decision.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

For Brotagonist ... the photos are so evocative ... ah, my lost youth ...


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

I'd like to claim Stravinsky as an American composer (why not?).

But I actually don't feel any special affinity for composers just because of their nationality.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Internationalist in the majority.

Find less affinity with British composers (antique through modern) in general than any other -- enough so I noticed it is rather pronounced... some "coziness" and a kind of conservatism to most which does not speak to me at all, the more extreme modernist currently sounding "international school" without much a scrap of any regional accent. 

I'm also less in love with the Germanic big triumverate from the baroque - classical - romantic, i.e. Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, than many seem to be, though there are enough German / Austrian composers, antique through modern, whose music I am keen on.

Perhaps when I was younger, this music or that newer to me, where I would in a very youthful manner romanticize a nationality associated with a composer, literature, or other arts from one nation or the other... but that took its place as the youthful romantic fantasy conceit I now think of as that sort of notion being.

I think it is not uncommon to perhaps have a more innate sympathy with the more "national" music of one's own country, even the most contemporary of music still somehow reflecting speech patterns, the ethos of the composer, the composer's place, society, and time. That said, much contemporary classical music seems to be more of an "international" school, with only here and there more minor aspects / reflections of regional accents. 

My country of birth has a very brief history compared to Europe: there is by comparison to what has come from Europe over centuries very little American classical music. I don't "resonate" with much of Aaron Copland, for example, and have yet to care for anything, really, by Leonard Bernstein. More uniquely American to me would not be Gershwin, but Conlon Nancarrow, Terry Riley, Charles Ives, Elliott Carter, Harry Partch.

I like a good folk tune from about anywhere on the planet, but have no sense of sentiment or allegiance about them. American folk tunes are primarily just more British style affairs written on non-British soil, I think it a mistake to call them uniquely American, those not British descendent are of African descent and influence, melded with European, and perhaps the more genuinely "American" music than what came from our Caucasian predecessors....

I have yet to hear anything classical and Canadian which sounds in any way uniquely Canadian... that nation, like America but more so, still showing chunks of either British sensibility -- a sort of screaming conservatism even within the modernist, or French influence, perhaps a bit more modern.


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## musicphotogAnimal (Jul 24, 2012)

Japanese music? Hmmm, sometimes. but I was born in Canada so not really as much. The only one that I recognized as being emotionally tied to was after the death of my father who was born in Japan but buried in Canada. It was a piece called "Homeland" or "Furusato".






The reason it struck a chord was the fact that my father and my mother were making arrangements to go back to Kyoto and visit relatives there just months before he suffered a fatal heart attack and passed away. I've resolved that one of these days I will make that trip instead in his memory.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

In answer to the OP, I'm not particularly drawn to music from my homeland even though I like lots of it - if anything, I think most music classical music from c.1700-1950 can serve as a kind of travel brochure-cum-time machine but find that post-c.1950 the later the music gets the more it's likely to transcend or erase any idea of a national 'style' or where the composer him/herself actually comes from, although there are always exceptions.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

brotagonist said:


> Bad choice. These facts were known to me.
> 
> I was trying to illustrate the difficulties I had had when trying to categorize my collection. aleazk appeared to have understood, but I will try to explain. My problems began like this...
> 
> ...


Xenakis is Greek, but having first worked as a mathematician / architect -- assistant to Le Corbusier, and then later turned to music, it makes sense that he is considered "French"

Ligeti is a Hungarian.

Schoenberg was Austrian through and through, and once he emigrated from Europe, missed -- profoundly -- his spoken language and culture, from high to low.

Best to go with categorization on place of Birth, and to me very critical where the training happened, where they first established themselves.

Handel, German, as many a training composer did then, had Italianate training and influence (as did Mozart), but I don't think one would ever think to call him an Italian composer, because he wasn't.

Calling Schoenberg, or Stravinsky, American composers is tantamount to ridiculous: there is nothing "American" about the sensibility of either, their entire training, background, etc. happening and having been established elsewhere. Ditto Hindemith and Kurt Weill.

Lukas Foss is the only European emigre composer I can think of whose training was abroad (Germany) but who came to the states so soon after having completed the training that nearly all of his entire oeuvre is written in America, and his music does not sound pronouncedly "Germanic." He may be readily enough thought of as an American composer, I suppose.

I think it rather amusing that the only ones who truly seem to wish to think of Handel as a British composer are almost all Brits: it makes no more sense than calling Chopin a French composer.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Schoenberg was Austrian through and through, and once he emigrated from Europe, missed -- profoundly -- his spoken language and culture, from high to low.
> 
> Best to go with categorization on place of Birth, and to me very critical where the training happened, where they first established themselves.
> 
> ...


What's an "American sensibility"?


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

I come from eastern Ukraine and speak Russian. While I do appreciate and like Russian composers (Tchaikowsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, etc.), it's not my favourite field of classical music - I prefer classical, baroque and early romanticism, mostly from Austria or Gemany.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

PetrB said:


> I think it rather amusing that the only ones who truly seem to wish to think of Handel as a British composer are almost all Brits: it makes no more sense than calling Chopin a French composer.


Sorry, but I don't think that's a fair comparison - Chopin may have had a French father but even he was only in his teens when he moved to Poland.

George II for whom Handel wrote music was hardly any less German than the composer himself. However, if both of them by virtue of their respective vocations came to consider themselves British rather than German then that's good enough for me. Had Handel's relationship with George II's notoriously prickly father not been so testy on occasion (Handel served as his Kapellmeister for a couple of years in Hanover before moving to London in 1712 during the reign of Queen Anne) then it's likely Handel would have been offered British citizenship even earlier than 1727.

As the old saying goes, 'being born in a stable does not make a man a horse' - which was far more appropriate to Handel than it was for Chopin.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

deleted post + 15 characters


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

apricissimus said:


> What's an "American sensibility"?


According to Louis Andriessen, when commenting upon the American Minimalists, it is more "Hot tub and scented candle." LOL.
What Andriessen went on to say, is that he is European, ergo more in alignment with angst, etc. Of course it is just another squib form another fine composer trying to be equally clever with words 

And what is a __________ sensibility which makes French music "French," British music "British," etc.

According to some, Aaron Copland's populist style equates with "The American Sound." Further likened to the wide open spaces of prairie and landscapes further west, it is tagged as such because it is quartal harmony, more "open sounding" i.e. wider intervals and spacing. This the product of a child born in Brooklyn of Lithuanian Jewish emigres... as America's most prestigious composers who contributed to the great American songbook were of Russian (also Jewish) descent.. Irving Berlin and George Gershwin.

Ives was a New Englander, reflected the Transcendentalists, a complete independence (or anti-social withdrawal) from the entire classical music scene, and independence of parts and roles within a piece of music. A paper thin analogy to the polyglot population which is the American people could be drawn out if one cared to make a paper thin analogy 

Virgil Thomson said it best, "It is simple to be an American composer. Be American, and then write any way you care to write."

There is that lingering comment / criticism that much of 20th century American music is more essentially French School than anything else so many of our finest having studied with and been influenced by either Nadia Boulanger or Olivier Messiaen. As a criticism, it is leveled at American music by those who think the French Influence very much misses the Germanic School boat 

The closest I can think of to uniquely American (or at least 'the American musical development) is the polyglot elements, including polytemporal music, starting with Ives and picked up most directly by Elliott Carter (there is a technical term "Ivesian counterpoint," and I cannot think of another composer whose name has been so attached) yet I doubt if in any official, i.e. academic, tome that one would find a quick fix answer as to what constitutes an American style -- another century of American classical music might give us enough to go on.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

elgars ghost said:


> Sorry, but I don't think that's a fair comparison - Chopin may have had a French father but even he was only in his teens when he moved to Poland.
> 
> George II for whom Handel wrote music was hardly any less German than the composer himself. However, if both of them by virtue of their respective vocations came to consider themselves British rather than German then that's good enough for me. Had Handel's relationship with George II's notoriously prickly father not been so testy on occasion (Handel served as his Kapellmeister for a couple of years in Hanover before moving to London in 1712 during the reign of Queen Anne) then it's likely Handel would have been offered British citizenship even earlier than 1727.
> 
> As the old saying goes, 'being born in a stable does not make a man a horse' - which was far more appropriate to Handel than it was for Chopin.


All fine and good, but I can not trace a bit of musical DNA in Handel which is "British School" as to music procedure or character.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Xenakis is Greek, but having first worked as a mathematician / architect -- assistant to Le Corbusier, and then later turned to music, it makes sense that he is considered "French"
> 
> Ligeti is a Hungarian.
> 
> ...


Interesting because Handel thought of himself as an English composer so what about that ?
Chopin was a Polish composer and not remotely French in anything he did. He left Poland when he was twenty and was based in Paris for nineteen years until his death. he was part of the Polish Grand Emigration caused by unrest at home ,but he never considered himself anything but Polish.
His songs incidentally were all written in Polish.
Handel was 27 when he moved to London and had enjoyed musical training in Halle and in Italy.
He became a British subject in 1727 and made a transition to English choral works,you will know that Alexander's Feast and Messiah are in English,after Messiah he was never involved in Italian opera again.
He lived here for 50 years and was given a state funeral and buried in Westminster Abbey,honours that are reserved for important Englishmen.
Your remark about us being the only ones who consider him English is amusing,I mean the Americans,the French, the Italians and btw the Germans don't claim him.

Lastly,I'm a Canadian German but a British citizen ,according to you that makes me a Canadian---right?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

moody said:


> I'm a Canadian German but a British citizen ,according to you that makes me a Canadian---right?


This is just me, but when you say Canadian German, are you speaking of ancestry? To me, the country of your birth is what your nationality is, no matter where your parents came from. If you adopt another nationality, then you are that nationality, but not necessarily heart, soul, or thinking patterns, at least not so much as a native who was born, lived and died in the one country.

The United States of America is filled with people who say they are "name the nationality _hyphen_ American." Many who do identify themselves in this manner are third to fifth generation Americans.

I just don't get it, frankly... certainly after several generations of being American, you're just "American."


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

PetrB said:


> I just don't get it, frankly... certainly after several generations of being American, you're just "American."


Exactly! My mom makes much of our Irish heritage. My great grandmother immigrated from Ireland in the 1930s. My mom loves everything Irish as do her three sisters and most everyone else on that side of the family. My father's family were also Irish immigrants but I was born here in America and I tell people I am not Irish-American. I am only an American. I really hate it when people say they are Afro-American, Hispanic-American, Native- American or Latin-American etc. etc. As long as people want to identify themselves in that way then the U.S. will always be a divided nation, and will never rid themselves of their racist attitudes. Because that is what it is just politically correct racism and nothing more. I don't care what color you are or what your heritage is. If you were born in the USA then call yourself and American and be proud of it!

Kevin


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PetrB said:


> This is just me, but when you say Canadian German, are you speaking of ancestry? To me, the country of your birth is what your nationality is, no matter where your parents came from. If you adopt another nationality, then you are that nationality, but not necessarily heart, soul, or thinking patterns, at least not so much as a native who was born, lived and died in the one country.
> 
> The United States of America is filled with people who say they are "name the nationality _hyphen_ American." Many who do identify themselves in this manner are third to fifth generation Americans.
> 
> I just don't get it, frankly... certainly after several generations of being American, you're just "American."


I was born in Canada but my father came to Britain to take certain medical degrees an d stayed.
I don't think Canadian--whatever that might mean--but am always glad to see anyone from there and of course have family there still.
We have enough problems with people who have come here apparently permanently but still think of themselves as from somewhere else.
This has nothing to do with Handel has it--do you think he should have announced himself as German/English as he wasn't born here ?


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

PetrB said:


> To me, the country of your birth is what your nationality is, no matter where your parents came from. If you adopt another nationality, then you are that nationality, but not necessarily heart, soul, or thinking patterns, at least not so much as a native who was born, lived and died in the one country.


Then you were wrong, because with tha criteria Ligeti would be Romanian.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

'T's an innarestin question.

After a couple minutes of brainstorming (an activity that in this case involved more brainthundering than brainlighteninging) I decided that _for the period 1920 or so to the present_ I do in fact prefer my country's music.

Hadn't realized it before. And of course before 1920 or so USA music doesn't have to count.

Therefore:

U-S-A! 
U-S-A! 
U-S-A!






Best part is when the flag gets in the way of his shooting, and he has to push it out of the way. I see symbolism rather than irony. (Sorry, the best part is when he's off camera for like five seconds. Had Jim Bob's daughter edited that crap for him, something important would be missing)


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## musicphotogAnimal (Jul 24, 2012)

Nothin' says "Canada" like Eastern Canadian folk music which takes its roots back from the old country - A little Celtic lilt,. My wife's heritage is from Ireland and I'm sure there's some Scot in the bloodline too, because aye, she does have a temper. Considering us "Japanese-heritage" types have a temper too. Can you imagine how hot-tempered our kids are?


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

From this Americans perspective, it depends on the music. In classical music, I do not prefer Copeland over, say, Ravell simply because Copeland would, on occasion, write in an "American" idiom. In general, Copelands American works tend to be too self consciously American. An attempt to bring the voice of the people into the arts. All very 1930's American socialism ra-ra I think the problem is that the Americanism is not an internalized personal expression but rather a coat he would put on as needed. This is not to say that I do not enjoy some of the American pieces, or at least shards thereof. I do like his Hoedown from Rodeo (that's ro-DEE-o, not ro-DAY-o, at least out west here where we really have them). The Simple Gifts section of Appalachian Spring is quite nice. Also his score for "Our Town" is very good. Then off course there is Fanfare for the Common Man (see the socialism comment above) which is not intrinsically American in style but one of his more accessible international style works. To me, it seems Copeland was most successful when using other peoples music. Shaker sings et al.

Now that I have discussed and dismissed Copeland, I must say that there are American works that affect me and touch me more deeply than non American works do. Most of these are actual folk music and some are by American who have been steeped in the culture long enough, or are musically aware enough (Dimitri Tiomkin) to be able to write "American" with out affectation. 

Of the folk music genre, there are many songs and tunes that speak or that make my Americanism come to the fore. Shennandoah, Deep River, A Poor Wayfaring Stranger, Clementine, Turkey in the Straw, Wabash Cannonball. It's a long list. The "Negro Spirituals" are a particularly deep source that has been taken into the stream of American music. Jesse Norman has some very good CDs of said spirituals. 

While on the subject of religious music, the shaped note Sacred Harp music, really touches me. It is deep, old and raw American singing and harmony. It is self-consciously not Bach or common practice. Unfortunately, there are not many good Cds of it. Most tend to be field recordings. The Annonymous Four have ventured into it a bit. There is a CD called "Rivers of Delight" which is a good non field recording and a valuable introduction to the form. 

American music would not be the same without Stephan Foster. Wonderful music and lyrics, some a tad cloying by our standards, which the people of his time loved. Just about every time someone mentions an American folksong, it actually turns out to be a Stephan Foster song. Foster was the first American to make a living writing songs and not the first American to be shorted by his publisher. He died penniless in New York while people all over the country, both in the U. S. and the Confederacy, were singing his songs. 

Fosters contemporary, Louis Moreau Gottschalk, fared only a bit better. He was Americas first international music star. He went to Paris to study piano as a young teen, played for Liszt and Chopin and toured France and Spain. Being born in New Orleans, he grew up speaking French and being exposed to the Creole music of the French, Cajuns, Slaves and Caribbean refugees from what became Haiti. In Paris his Creole pieces were all the rage. When he returned to America, he played concerts in All the major cities like New York and Boston (Boston did not like him) and in a great many smaller venues. He was a great showman. Being quite handsome and looking very dapper in his frock coat and white gloves, he would mount the stage and conspicuously remove his gloves and toss them to female well wisher in the audience. Women would faint from the emotion he expressed in his music. Always one to please his audience, he included more specifically American style music in his concerts. Most of it his own works. These were mostly improvised so no two performances of the same piece would be alike. Gottschalk died at the piano in a concert in Rio de Janeiro. His family thought he was rolling in the money, but, alas, he was broke like Foster.

Gottschalk was a great influence on Scott Joplin. If you look at some of Gottschalks Creole pieces you can detect faint future hints of Ragtime. Joplin would have been very familiar with Gottschalks music as it was still popular in his youth and would have made a good impression in the establishments where he played. Joplin did not invent Ragtime but he perfected it. His intent was not to just play a good piece for a few bucks in tips, he wanted ragtime to be seen as on a par with Chopins and Liszts folk based works like the Mazurkas and Polonaises. It was not to be as the concert goers of the time could not forgive that it originated in brothels and was invented by black men. By the time Irving Berlin came out with Alexanders Ragtime Band, the brothel players had moved on to invent Jazz. 

I love Gottschalk and Joplin. For all his travels and Spanish Caribbean and South American music, there is a core Americanism that peeps out from the exoctica of the Spanish and Caribbean works. I think it is something Americans are often accused of having in abundance; brashness. Joplin is all American. Even though all America did not want what he was giving them. Joplin died in 1917. His music quickly forgotten as old fashioned by the new Jazz players. It wasn't until the movie "The Sting" came out un 1973, using Joplins music, copyright free, that he came back into fame. Gottschalk is still waiting. 

Tangentially, Zez Confrey, a white man, was able to slip some ragtime riffs into his piano music. His music is very good and has for too long been dismissed as less than worthy because he wrote "Kitten on the Keys". 

In concert music we Americans have also dismissed men like Chadwick and MacDowell. Their sin was in not being German. Americans tend to have an inferiority complex when it comes to art music. Around the 1870's and onward, the feeling was that our music was not as good as that from Europe. We may be rich but it was Nouveau Riche. But Europe, now that was Old Money and Old Culture, which was obviously better than new American culture. So we imported Tchaikovsky, and Dvorak and especially Mahler, to show us how it was done. For most of the 20th century American classical music was dominated by the Europeans and especially the Germans. No orchestra could possibly be taken seriously if it did not have at least a European conductor and even better a German one. An Italian would do in a pinch. American composers would have a hard time getting performances if they had not studied in Europe, Paris preferably and with Nadia Boulanger. To me, this is a period of stagnation for American music, concert music any way. 

Jazz flourished with men like Duke Ellington, Count Basie and my fav, Cab Calloway. Then it moved from black Haarlam to white parts of town and became Swing. One of the first instances where black culture was openly adopted by the white segment of society. Bebop leaves me cold but Swing I like. 

Ignoring the Concert Hall music, partly because they were not the right kind of people, i.e. Jews, men like Irving Berlin and George Gershwin had a huge influence on American music by writing music for very popular stage musicals and later very popular movie musicals. This brings us back to Copeland. At the same time he was writing his American style music for venues that the common man rarely attended, Berlin and Gershwin and other writes of stage and screen music were playing for packed houses. Their music on the lips of the masses in numbers that Copeland and his confreres could only wish for. The music of the musicals up 'til about the 1950s was unashamedly American and influenced music world wide. 

Wow, I didn't intend for this to become a treatise on American music history. Let this be a lesson. Don't ask such good questions.


----------



## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

From this Americans perspective, it depends on the music. In classical music, I do not prefer Copeland over, say, Ravell simply because Copeland would, on occasion, write in an "American" idiom. In general, Copelands American works tend to be too self consciously American. An attempt to bring the voice of the people into the arts. All very 1930's American socialism ra-ra I think the problem is that the Americanism is not an internalized personal expression but rather a coat he would put on as needed. This is not to say that I do not enjoy some of the American pieces, or at least shards thereof. I do like his Hoedown from Rodeo (that's ro-DEE-o, not ro-DAY-o, at least out west here where we really have them). The Simple Gifts section of Appalachian Spring is quite nice. Also his score for "Our Town" is very good. Then off course there is Fanfare for the Common Man (see the socialism comment above) which is not intrinsically American in style but one of his more accessible international style works. To me, it seems Copeland was most successful when using other peoples music. Shaker sings et al.

Now that I have discussed and dismissed Copeland, I must say that there are American works that affect me and touch me more deeply than non American works do. Most of these are actual folk music and some are by American who have been steeped in the culture long enough, or are musically aware enough (Dimitri Tiomkin) to be able to write "American" with out affectation. 

Of the folk music genre, there are many songs and tunes that speak or that make my Americanism come to the fore. Shennandoah, Deep River, A Poor Wayfaring Stranger, Clementine, Turkey in the Straw, Wabash Cannonball. It's a long list. The "Negro Spirituals" are a particularly deep source that has been taken into the stream of American music. Jesse Norman has some very good CDs of said spirituals. 

While on the subject of religious music, the shaped note Sacred Harp music, really touches me. It is deep, old and raw American singing and harmony. It is self-consciously not Bach or common practice. Unfortunately, there are not many good Cds of it. Most tend to be field recordings. The Annonymous Four have ventured into it a bit. There is a CD called "Rivers of Delight" which is a good non field recording and a valuable introduction to the form. 

American music would not be the same without Stephan Foster. Wonderful music and lyrics, some a tad cloying by our standards, which the people of his time loved. Just about every time someone mentions an American folksong, it actually turns out to be a Stephan Foster song. Foster was the first American to make a living writing songs and not the first American to be shorted by his publisher. He died penniless in New York while people all over the country, both in the U. S. and the Confederacy, were singing his songs. 

Fosters contemporary, Louis Moreau Gottschalk, fared only a bit better. He was Americas first international music star. He went to Paris to study piano as a young teen, played for Liszt and Chopin and toured France and Spain. Being born in New Orleans, he grew up speaking French and being exposed to the Creole music of the French, Cajuns, Slaves and Caribbean refugees from what became Haiti. In Paris his Creole pieces were all the rage. When he returned to America, he played concerts in All the major cities like New York and Boston (Boston did not like him) and in a great many smaller venues. He was a great showman. Being quite handsome and looking very dapper in his frock coat and white gloves, he would mount the stage and conspicuously remove his gloves and toss them to female well wisher in the audience. Women would faint from the emotion he expressed in his music. Always one to please his audience, he included more specifically American style music in his concerts. Most of it his own works. These were mostly improvised so no two performances of the same piece would be alike. Gottschalk died at the piano in a concert in Rio de Janeiro. His family thought he was rolling in the money, but, alas, he was broke like Foster.

Gottschalk was a great influence on Scott Joplin. If you look at some of Gottschalks Creole pieces you can detect faint future hints of Ragtime. Joplin would have been very familiar with Gottschalks music as it was still popular in his youth and would have made a good impression in the establishments where he played. Joplin did not invent Ragtime but he perfected it. His intent was not to just play a good piece for a few bucks in tips, he wanted ragtime to be seen as on a par with Chopins and Liszts folk based works like the Mazurkas and Polonaises. It was not to be as the concert goers of the time could not forgive that it originated in brothels and was invented by black men. By the time Irving Berlin came out with Alexanders Ragtime Band, the brothel players had moved on to invent Jazz. 

I love Gottschalk and Joplin. For all his travels and Spanish Caribbean and South American music, there is a core Americanism that peeps out from the exoctica of the Spanish and Caribbean works. I think it is something Americans are often accused of having in abundance; brashness. Joplin is all American. Even though all America did not want what he was giving them. Joplin died in 1917. His music quickly forgotten as old fashioned by the new Jazz players. It wasn't until the movie "The Sting" came out un 1973, using Joplins music, copyright free, that he came back into fame. Gottschalk is still waiting. 

Tangentially, Zez Confrey, a white man, was able to slip some ragtime riffs into his piano music. His music is very good and has for too long been dismissed as less than worthy because he wrote "Kitten on the Keys". 

In concert music we Americans have also dismissed men like Chadwick and MacDowell. Their sin was in not being German. Americans tend to have an inferiority complex when it comes to art music. Around the 1870's and onward, the feeling was that our music was not as good as that from Europe. We may be rich but it was Nouveau Riche. But Europe, now that was Old Money and Old Culture, which was obviously better than new American culture. So we imported Tchaikovsky, and Dvorak and especially Mahler, to show us how it was done. For most of the 20th century American classical music was dominated by the Europeans and especially the Germans. No orchestra could possibly be taken seriously if it did not have at least a European conductor and even better a German one. An Italian would do in a pinch. American composers would have a hard time getting performances if they had not studied in Europe, Paris preferably and with Nadia Boulanger. To me, this is a period of stagnation for American music, concert music any way. 

Jazz flourished with men like Duke Ellington, Count Basie and my fav, Cab Calloway. Then it moved from black Haarlam to white parts of town and became Swing. One of the first instances where black culture was openly adopted by the white segment of society. Bebop leaves me cold but Swing I like. 

Ignoring the Concert Hall music, partly because they were not the right kind of people, i.e. Jews, men like Irving Berlin and George Gershwin had a huge influence on American music by writing music for very popular stage musicals and later very popular movie musicals. This brings us back to Copeland. At the same time he was writing his American style music for venues that the common man rarely attended, Berlin and Gershwin and other writes of stage and screen music were playing for packed houses. Their music on the lips of the masses in numbers that Copeland and his confreres could only wish for. The music of the musicals up 'til about the 1950s was unashamedly American and influenced music world wide. 

Wow, I didn't intend for this to become a treatise on American music history. Let this be a lesson. Don't ask such good questions.


----------



## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

I also didn't intend for it to post twice.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Never mind. Well worth saying.

Funnily enough I posted on this on the thread Classical Music and Entertainment mentioning William Billings and PetrB replied. Funnily enough there's quite a big Sacred Harp scene over here. We're not involved but it is very popular.

Another part of this is Dvorak and his encouragement of American music.

Then there's the whole Seeger-Lomax thing - both generations - growing out of depression era funding in the states and then influencing the British revival in the 1950s through the British collections.

Great post! (both of them!)


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## fcslynnlin (Aug 6, 2013)

I don't appear to prefer one nation over another...

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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I live in America and Samuel Barber is one of my favorite composers. 

However, my other favorites are Schumann, Brahms, Elgar, Nielsen and Vaughan Williams.

So, what may have looked like a "yes" is really a "no"


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

moody said:


> Interesting because Handel thought of himself as an English composer so what about that ?


I don't care what Handel "thought of himself as." 
I do care, speaking of his music, about any traces of "English School" compositional traits which would make his music more English than Germanic / Italianate, And I hear / see none.

What language a text you have chosen to set does not make on that nationality either. Benjamin Britten's _Les Illumination_s is a setting of poetry of Rimbaud, but that does not make Ben "French." Handel set texts in German, Latin, Italian and English, the latter might be the best and most politic choice if you're living their, the public love you, and you are writing for voice or chorus, that's all.

Many 29th century composers were displaced by war: Stravinsky became a French citizen, and later an American Citizen. There are similar events in other composer's lives. Stravinsky's music, some say, is influenced by that French School, ca 1900, but the man's music, for all intensive purposes, is the product of a Russian.

Schoenberg longed for home, the culture and the language, and too, remained stylistically Schoenberg, all that Germanic / Austrian aesthetic intact.


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## classicalguy (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm very international when it comes to music. I like French, Irish, German and Korean/Japanese


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I'm definitely international, and that's reflected in the popular music I listen to as well. I can like the English pastoral style but there are definitely English composers who don't appeal to me so much as well, so I think it's hard to say I have a particular affinity with English music. Many I'm sure enjoy the variety of music anyway. Also you could always say there are noble, pastoral or introspective work from other places rather than just England, and that helps you see things in a better perspective and notice the universality of style if you look beyond the details.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

elgars ghost said:


> In answer to the OP, I'm not particularly drawn to music from my homeland even though I like lots of it - if anything, I think most music classical music from c.1700-1950 can serve as a kind of travel brochure-cum-time machine but find that post-c.1950 the later the music gets the more it's likely to transcend or erase any idea of a national 'style' or where the composer him/herself actually comes from, although there are always exceptions.


I wonder if there is more universality of music than you make out, particularly in the baroque and classical period.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

starry said:


> I wonder if there is more universality of music than you make out, particularly in the baroque and classical period.


Nope. Try something like Teleman's Concerto Polonois to get a feel for Polish tunes. It's like regional accents, as we move to a global village regional dialects and accents are disappearing fast, as we move into the 20th century music loses some of it's cultural roots. Bit like Bob Dylan's Blues - "most of the songs that are written uptown in Tin Pan Alley, that's where most of the folk songs come from nowadays" - and it shows.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Taggart said:


> Nope. Try something like Teleman's Concerto Polonois to get a feel for Polish tunes. It's like regional accents, as we move to a global village regional dialects and accents are disappearing fast, as we move into the 20th century music loses some of it's cultural roots. Bit like Bob Dylan's Blues - "most of the songs that are written uptown in Tin Pan Alley, that's where most of the folk songs come from nowadays" - and it shows.


Regional accents but not necessarily a totally different style. And regional sounds could cross boundaries, Italian music could influence Germanic composers for instance. I think the later romantic period and the earlier 20th century probably had the most nationalistic music, though even some of that was strongly influenced by the strong Germanic tradition within classical music of that time.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

starry said:


> I think the later romantic period and the earlier 20th century probably had the most nationalistic music, though even some of that was strongly influenced by the strong Germanic tradition within classical music of that time.


Even when, like the English, they were reacting against the strong Germanic tradition.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

moody said:


> Homeland is not a European word,how do you describe your country of birth ?
> Your problem with Fatherland is because of the WW11 conections in comics and films.


homeland (n.) 1660s, from home (n.) + land (n.). Old English hamland meant "enclosed pasture." 
From the Online Etymology Dictionary.

Most other definitions will include something like "The traditional territory of an ethnic group."

This may point to the reason this word is rarely, if ever, in my experience, used in the U.S.A. 
My national origin is not the traditional territory of my ethnicity, which would be the case for the vast majority of Americans.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

brotagonist said:


> I had never heard of him, but I have been a long-time fan of another Argentinian composer, Mauricio Kagel.


Try his string quartets (3) or his phenomenal Harp Concerto.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

apricissimus said:


> I'd like to claim Stravinsky as an American composer (why not?).
> 
> But I actually don't feel any special affinity for composers just because of their nationality.


An American Stravinsky. That's interesting. I wonder if the French feel the same way.


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