# Different Tonal Systems



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Howdy folks, I'm looking for some tonal music that isn't composed with the Western twelve-tone system. Modal music goes a little way to this, but I'd be particularly interested in music that is based on a tonal system thought out mathematically, such as with the Bohlen-Pierce scale.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Oops; duplicate post. See the one below.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Are you thinking about something like Per Norgard's infinity series?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_N%C3%B8rg%C3%A5rd


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Manxfeeder said:


> Oops; duplicate post. See the one below.


No, I don't think so. That's mathematical, but it's almost the precise _opposite_ of what I want. For something to be a tonal system, it must have a defined range of pitches - usually determined by some ratios (this is where the maths is likely to come in) - with one of them taking prime position as a tonal centre, with the others given a hierarchy. Just as we have dominants, sub-dominants et al., but with different frequencies determined by different ratios.

The Norgaard is mathematical, but it's just a series, not a hierarchy, and therefore is not a tonal system.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Tonal is the key word; got it.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Polednice said:


> No, I don't think so. That's mathematical, but it's almost the precise _opposite_ of what I want. For something to be a tonal system, it must have a defined range of pitches - usually determined by some ratios (this is where the maths is likely to come in) - with one of them taking prime position as a tonal centre, with the others given a hierarchy. Just as we have dominants, sub-dominants et al., *but with different frequencies determined by different ratios.
> *


This sentence kind of makes it sound like you are looking for different tuning systems. That's not it though is it?


----------



## Guest (Feb 18, 2012)

Polednice said:


> Howdy folks, I'm looking for some tonal music that isn't composed with the Western twelve-tone system. Modal music goes a little way to this, but I'd be particularly interested in music that is based on a tonal system thought out mathematically, such as with the Bohlen-Pierce scale.


Well, the Bohlen-Pierce scale is not a system; it's a scale. A system would be something that gives one a method for manipulating, for relating the pitches in your scale. (The wiki article gives several other scales (and also calls the Bohlen-Pierce scale a system, so watch out!))

Tonal in western art music most often refers to common practice tonality, the system for manipulating the equal tempered scale that gradually replaced the modes. Music composed with the Bohlen-Pierce scale (even though it is an equally divided octave) would not be common practice tonality, though some pieces might mimic it.

In short, either "tonal music that isn't composed with the Western twelve-tone system" means "all the other music composed using tones" or it doesn't mean anything. Depending on how you define "tonal."

Aside: equal temperament became popular in part because it allowed enharmonic modulation, which all the kids at the time (18th century) thought was so cool. Polytonality and dodecaphony and pantonality and serialism all arose and developed using equal temperament. I wonder how different the history of music and systems (dodecaphony and serialism are systems for manipulating tones) would have been had equal temperament not become _the_ thing.


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification of terminology, but surely you know what I mean - and what I mean doesn't leave room for the false dichotomy of "music with tones" or "nothing".

Yes, the Bohlen-Pierce scale is a scale, not a system, and out of the scale you could write music _analogous_ to twelve-tone atonality, and music _analogous_ to twelve-tone, equal temperament tonality, which could have varying degrees of chromaticism, blah, blah.

Obviously, I'm looking for something analogous to music of the common practice period which doesn't use the same diatonic system - something with tonics and dominants and keys, but founded on a different scale. The Bohlen-Pierce article states, for example, that its 3:5:7 chord functions in the same way as the just major chord 4:5:6. It's a tonal system, but from a different scale.

If that's impossible, a less dismissive explanation would be appreciated.


----------



## Guest (Feb 18, 2012)

What I think is that you're looking for a chimera.


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

some guy said:


> What I think is that you're looking for a chimera.


K fnx bai.


----------



## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

some guy said:


> Aside: equal temperament became popular in part because it allowed enharmonic modulation, which all the kids at the time (18th century) thought was so cool. Polytonality and dodecaphony and pantonality and serialism all arose and developed using equal temperament. I wonder how different the history of music and systems (dodecaphony and serialism are systems for manipulating tones) would have been had equal temperament not become _the_ thing.


note that equal temperament and _well_ temperament aren't the same thing.


----------

