# Attending the debut of a masterpiece



## Figaro78 (Aug 20, 2010)

I often imagine what it would have been like to attend the debut of a great opera.
Can you imagine the excitement, the thrill of attending the first performance of Aida, for instance?
If I had my choice, I would have been in the audience for the first performance of Strauss' Salome.
Can you imagine the effect it had on the audience... it must have been a sensation!

What opera debut above all would you have liked to attend?


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

I often attend premieres. Unfortunately it's all by ****** modern composers who think they're cool because they're dissonant.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

You have to read more books about composers and history of music if you think that it was some huge and mass enlightement upon those people. I would like to belive it too, but I'm smart.

It's quite simple: People in early XXth century attended premiere of Elektra and left opera house disappointed and full of regrets that they were born too late to hear premiere of master Wagner's work. People in XIXth century attented premiere of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde and didn't understand it and later they were wondering how it was to attend premiere of some really great opera, like Mozart's Figaro. And contemporaries of Mozart left opera house satisfied with Figaro, a decent work that they enjoyed to some extent and thinking that it's nice that this work will be performed for next two-three weeks, because it probably deserves such long life.

Many of us are just like them, leaving premieres indiffrent and thinking how unlucky they are, living in era with no more masterpieces.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I would have loved to have been in Bayreuth for the opening of that great festival in 1876, when the historic first performances of the complete Ring took place.
I know,technically, Das Rheingold and Die Walkure had already been performed several years before in Munich for the first time, but Siegfried and Gotterdammerung were premieres. 
But this was the first time the complete Ring was performed. Conditions were very difficult and chaotic for all those who attended,as the facilities for hotels and dining were woefully inadequate, but it must have been an amazing experience !
Many eminent composers and even heads of state were there .


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> You have to read more books about composers and history of music if you think that it was some huge and mass enlightement upon those people. I would like to belive it too, but I'm smart.
> 
> It's quite simple: People in early XXth century attended premiere of Elektra and left opera house disappointed and full of regrets that they were born too late to hear premiere of master Wagner's work. People in XIXth century attented premiere of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde and didn't understand it and later they were wondering how it was to attend premiere of some really great opera, like Mozart's Figaro. And contemporaries of Mozart left opera house satisfied with Figaro, a decent work that they enjoyed to some extent and thinking that it's nice that this work will be performed for next two-three weeks, because it probably deserves such long life.
> 
> Many of us are just like them, leaving premieres indiffrent and thinking how unlucky they are, living in era with no more masterpieces.


LOL, I think you're absolutely right! But there are exceptions. For example, when either Otello or Falstaff premiered (I read about it but I don't remember which one, I think it was Otello). A huge crowd applauded Verdi with shouts of "Viva Verdi! Viva il Maestro!" and literally carried him on their shoulders to his home, and stayed outside applauding and serenading most of the night. And there are accounts of other opera premieres that drove the audiences so crazy that the artists could barely finish them because people required (and obtained) encores after most arias.

Later when I get home and browse my opera books I may be able to post a list of premieres that were extremely well received.

Of course, the opposite is also true, and Verdi brings about another case in point: the premiere of La Traviata was a big fiasco, and it was immediately withdrawn from La Fenice. Verdi wrote a short letter to a friend, saying: "La Traviata: a fiasco. My fault, or the singers'? Time will tell." Time did indeed tell... it's one of the five most popular operas in the world.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Haha, I remember this story, it was Otello indeed, they released horses from his carriage, occupied their places and took his home this way, there had to be special atmosphere in that day, or evening.


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Mostly true Aramis but not completely. Beethoven symphony no. 7 and 9 come to mind as pieces well received at the premiere. Dvorak 9, Brahms 1, Mendelssohn violin concerto as well. Of course these are all and were (except maybe Beethoven 9) extremely accessible pieces, and in todays world of composing, accessible is automatically associated with unintelligent. So yeah, chances of us attending a premiere where we know right there and then that it's a masterpiece are pretty slim. Best you can do is attend premiers of major composers, and hope that they'll go down as masterpieces later. 

Which now begs another question: anyone here ever attended a premiere of a piece that is now famous?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

So as promised here I go with opera premieres that were big successes (I'm skipping the "good" and "very good" as well as the "mixed" receptions - and of course all of the "no data" - and only listing major works that had terrific, rapturous reception, or pretty bad receptions. Just to give you an idea of what I'm skipping, the reception to all four components of The Ring was mixed):

Big hits:

Adriana Lecouvreur
Cavalleria Rusticana
Don Giovani
Don Pasquale
L'Elisir d'Amore
Ernani
Falstaff
Faust
Die Fledermaus
Gianni Schicchi
Giulio Cesare
Iphigenia in Tauris
L'Italian in Algeri
Lakmé
I Lombardi (I'll never understand why, I find it rather lame and full of problems)
Lucia di Lammermoor
Macbeth
Manon Lescault
Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
Orpheus and Eurydice
Otello (as described above)
I Pagliacci
Parsifal
The Pearl Fishers
I Puritani
Rigoletto
Der Rosenkavalier
Salome (38 curtain calls, to respond to an earlier post - yes, people went berserk about it)
La Sonnambula
The threepenny Opera
Tosca
Il Trovatore
I Vespri Siciliani
Werther
William Tell
Wozzeck

Poorly received masterpieces:

The Barber of Seville
Carmen (Bizet was highly distressed)
Fidelio (Beethoven was devastated)
Madama Butterfly
Maria Stuarda
Norma
Tannhäuser
La Traviata (as described above)

The list above may give you the wrong impression that major operas were mostly well received, because the list of big hits is longer. But this is deceiving because as a matter of fact, most important operas got mixed receptions - think of every major work that is not listed above, and it was rather mixed, so-so, warm, or somewhat cold, etc. Considering that there are about 22,000 operas, the fact that the 150 or so major works were mostly received in mixed ways (with the above exceptions) doesn't bode well for the discriminating taste of the public.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Nix said:


> Mostly true Aramis but not completely. Beethoven symphony no. 7 and 9 come to mind as pieces well received at the premiere. Dvorak 9, Brahms 1, Mendelssohn violin concerto as well. Of course these are all and were (except maybe Beethoven 9) extremely accessible pieces, and in todays world of composing, accessible is automatically associated with unintelligent. So yeah, chances of us attending a premiere where we know right there and then that it's a masterpiece are pretty slim. Best you can do is attend premiers of major composers, and hope that they'll go down as masterpieces later.
> 
> Which now begs another question: anyone here ever attended a premiere of a piece that is now famous?


I believe people are talking about opera premieres here, not symphonies.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> The list above may give you the wrong impression that major operas were mostly well received, because the list of big hits is longer. But this is deceiving because as a matter of fact, most important operas got mixed receptions - think of every major work that is not listed above, and it was rather mixed, so-so, warm, or somewhat cold, etc. Considering that there are about 22,000 operas, the fact that the 150 or so major works were mostly received in mixed ways (with the above exceptions) doesn't bode well for the discriminating taste of the public.


Some of that may also have to do with the quality of the performance though. And there were also things like Paisiello fans consciously boycotting the premiere of Rossini's Il Barbiere.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> Some of that may also have to do with the quality of the performance though. And there were also things like Paisiello fans consciously boycotting the premiere of Rossini's Il Barbiere.


True, this Il Barbiere story is rather funny... Fortunately Rossini was tougher than most troubled composers and just carried on.

And yes, the La Fenice premiere of La Traviata was a big fiasco mostly thanks to the 300-pound soprano they hired to be Violetta, which was supposed to be a strikingly beautiful woman dying of consumption, LOL. Verdi was too busy with the opening of Il Trovatore in Rome a few weeks earlier, and got late to Venice for the rehearsals of La Traviata, past the deadline by which he contractually would have been able to fire spherical soprano Fanny Salvini-Donatelli who was a complete disaster and the butt of the audience's laughs and whistles as she dragged her elephantine frame on the stage, trying to portray a dying beauty. Each time Violetta coughed with tuberculosis, the audience broke off in wild laughter.

The opera's second run about one year later in Venice as well but in a less prestigious theater (after Verdi had resigned himself to shelve it, but was convinced to revive it by the owner of the smaller theater) was a phenomenal hit, and from there, it took off and is still in the top five today.

But still, what can explain the fact that the French didn't like Carmen???
And who in his right mind can not like Norma??? I mean, Norma??? Casta Diva??? Mira, o Norma??? Even poor singers can't avoid the sheer beauty of those melodious arias. One must really screw up big time to manage to make of Carmen and Norma something less than exquisite.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Nix said:


> Which now begs another question: anyone here ever attended a premiere of a piece that is now famous?


I'm 110 years old and I was at the premiere of _Wozzeck_ in the 1920's.

But seriously, there have been quite a few pretty good works premiered in our time, such as (our very own Australian) composer Brett Dean's _Bliss_, and also some by the British Thomas Ades. I'm not really into opera, but I have friends who saw_ Bliss _and thought it was excellent...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I'll vote for Giulio Cesare. It's been an abiding dream of mine to travel back in time and hear a real castrato, and Senesino would have been amongst my top picks.

On the other hand I'd probably go bats with all the chatting, coming in and out, eating, drinking, and general racket that went along with 18th Century opera audiences. Not to mention the smell of inadequately washed hot human.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

I've often wished I could have seen the audience's reaction to the prelude of Carmen during its debut. Just a huge torrent of bombastic sound smashing into the audience. ( 



 for anyone unfamiliar with it. Best enjoyed with speakers turned up  )
I was blown away the first time I watched Carmen and have to imagine that the audience at the time was even more wide-eyed.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> I've often wished I could have seen the audience's reaction to the prelude of Carmen during its debut. Just a huge torrent of bombastic sound smashing into the audience. (
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like I said above, the audience hated, loathed, despised, and booed the premiere of Carmen.
Bizet was so crushed that he became profoundly despondent and depressed and died three months later of a heart attack. He never saw the subsequent success, which started when the opera was presented in Vienna after his death. It took five years for Carmen to come back to Paris after encountering wild success everywhere (including New York City). The second time, the reaction was rapturous. Too late for poor Bizet.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Like I said above, the audience hated, loathed, despised, and booed the premiere of Carmen.
> Bizet was so crushed that he became profoundly despondent and depressed and died three months later of a heart attack. He never saw the subsequent success, which started when the opera was presented in Vienna after his death. It took five years for Carmen to come back to Paris after encountering wild success everywhere (including New York City). The second time, the reaction was rapturous. Too late for poor Bizet.


Well then, the Vienna premiere


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## Keikobad (Jul 9, 2010)

The term masterpiece is generally NOT conferred immediately, but, rather, is given after an extended period of time.

One rarely ever appreciates the entire forest while from a folding chair in the middle of an isolated glen.

Why, even today, we could reasonably argue the point.

Why, why, why this insatiable need to categorize, make lists, prioritize????? I just don't understand what good it does. Someone, PLEASE, tell me!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Keikobad said:


> Why, why, why this insatiable need to categorize, make lists, prioritize????? I just don't understand what good it does. Someone, PLEASE, tell me!


It's just human nature. People like to organize their thoughts, especially in such a vast universe as opera's. Lists of masterpieces can actually provide guidance to people who are beginners, so that they can get exposed to the most significant works - of course, then, they'll make up their own minds; like some, dislike others. For example, I personally can't understand what people see in I Lombardi; I don't like Madama Butterfly very much, and while I love the music in Parsifal, I can't stand its libretto. All three are in most lists of so-called "top 100" but not for me (there are many highly regarded operas that don't do much for me, and more obscure operas that do - I just picked these three as examples). So yes, lists are only a starting point, but they can be useful starting points.

I think that even when we don't formally write down a list, we do keep a sort of "internal, virtual list" of our favorites.

When I hear or see a new opera (for me), I usually kind of attribute a personal score to it... A+... B-... C... 

I know it's silly, we're not in grade school any longer and there are so many intervening factors that may make me like or dislike a given performance...

But I still do it, because it provides me a sort of record of what is worth going back to, and what is discardable and I shouldn't waste any further time with it (which only defines my own taste - someone else may love the ones I consider to be Cs and hate the ones I score as As, and there is no intrinsic judgment of value; I just rank what works for me and what doesn't).

Sure, then later I may actually completely change my mind and knock down in my preference something I had liked, or rediscover something I hadn't... but at the very least, I'll have some fun looking back at how I reacted to a specific opera the first time I was exposed to it.

Case in point: Rossini's Armida. I was completely blown away. I loved it! Ranked it A++ in my mind. Then later, I thought... meh... it's good but not *that* good.

The opposite happened with Lakme. I first thought, meh, C+ at best, there are some interesting arias but all very loosely connected with weak orchestration; a collection of good arias doesn't a good opera make, since it's not supposed to be a concert, after all. Later a friend asked me - how many numbers have you actually liked in Lakme? I looked it up in the track listings and said - this one, and this one, and this one, etc - and ended up with a large number of them (I don't remember all the details now). Then my friend said - OK, so, in this opera of a relatively short lenght, you liked this many pieces, and you still couldn't get yourself to like the opera??? Then I thought, oops, OK, maybe higher than C+... and with some revisiting I ended up liking Lakme, although I still see problems with it and is not one of my favorites.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Keikobad said:


> Why, why, why this insatiable need to categorize, make lists, prioritize????? I just don't understand what good it does. Someone, PLEASE, tell me!


Reading other people's lists gives you ideas of what you might wish to explore next, especially if you know you share some enthusiasms in common. Invaluable if like me you are consciously expanding your repertoire.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Reading other people's lists gives you ideas of what you might wish to explore next, especially if you know you share some enthusiasms in common. Invaluable if like me you are consciously expanding your repertoire.


You said in two lines what I tried to say in 7 paragraphs...

I feel very verbose now.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> You said in two lines what I tried to say in 7 paragraphs...
> 
> I feel very verbose now.


Not at all, because you were also talking about sorting out in your own mind what you like or don't.

Funnily enough I usually find something to like in most operas I see or hear, and I feel that if I don't, it's because I haven't tried enough.

But then of course there are operas that are simply balm to the soul on all levels, like Don Giovanni or Nozze di Figaro, and which I keep returning to when I have had enough "new stuff".


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Funnily enough I usually find something to like in most operas I see or hear, and I feel that if I don't, it's because I haven't tried enough.
> 
> But then of course there are operas that are simply balm to the soul on all levels, like Don Giovanni or Nozze di Figaro, and which I keep returning to when I have had enough "new stuff".


Ditto. There is always something good even in the biggest stinkers. Hey, this gave me an idea for a fun thread - about operas one *doesn't* like. I'll start one.


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