# Roughly 5% of a local orchestra players have had higher music education



## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

There is a community orchestra near here that a family member plays in that has roughly 5% of members who have studied music after leaving school. Only one is a recent music conservatoire graduate and they didn't go to one of the top conservatoires, 
So most community musicians in the UK have not had any form of musical training/ study since they left school.

From what I am reading here it seems that what is normal in the UK is not what is normal in the US?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Jaws said:


> There is a community orchestra near here that a family member plays in that has roughly 5% of members who have studied music after leaving school.


What kind of school are you speaking of? High school? College? There's plenty of opportunity to "study music" and play in orchestras at many colleges, for instance.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

We have varying skill levels of community orchestras in Seattle. Some are very difficult to get into because standards are high, but others are more like you describe.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Wait! Did I read this post correctly?

My family member tells me only 5% of the local orchestra has higher music education, therefore the same holds true for every community orchestra? 

Is that what it says?


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

Cnote11 said:


> Wait! Did I read this post correctly?
> 
> My family member tells me only 5% of the local orchestra has higher music education, therefore the same holds true for every community orchestra?
> 
> Is that what it says?


Most of the community orchestras in the UK appear to have this level of music education among players. I can't think of any in London that are likely to have a higher proportion than this. I have played in other community orchestras in other parts of the country years ago and they were the same.


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

KenOC said:


> What kind of school are you speaking of? High school? College? There's plenty of opportunity to "study music" and play in orchestras at many colleges, for instance.


Sorry I wasn't clear. Here in the UK the word school only applies to under 18. Then we have music conservatoire, university and colleges. 
About 5% of the above orchestra have members who have studied music after leaving High school, at age 18. Only one at a second level (not the highest) music conservatoire. The rest at university. In the UK university music courses do not require as high a level of playing skills as the music conservatoires.


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> We have varying skill levels of community orchestras in Seattle. Some are very difficult to get into because standards are high, but others are more like you describe.


For me this is very interesting because here in the UK there is no concept of very high standard and difficult to get into orchestras. The only difficulty is likely to be caused by someone playing a popular instrument and I have never heard of a community orchestra holding yearly auditions for all members, (although many high standard choirs do) If someone plays an instrument like flute or clarinet they will find it very difficult to join an orchestra, as people playing these instruments who are already in orchestras rarely leave.

Not having auditions every year causes another reason that standard remain low. If someone manages to get to play for example 1st clarinet in an orchestra, they can stay there for ever. If the 2nd clarinet leaves and someone who has just graduated with a performance degree from conservatoire or university decides to join the orchestra, they may never get the chance to play 1st clarinet in spite of the fact that they may be a lot better than the resident 1st clarinet and would be better for the orchestra. For this reason many highly trained ex music students do not want to play in the average community orchestra here in the UK.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I love amateur music.


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

science said:


> I love amateur music.


If we had the kind of high standard amateur orchestras that they have in the US, I think I would too.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Jaws said:


> If we had the kind of high standard amateur orchestras that they have in the US, I think I would too.


Well, all I can say about this is... I'm grateful to be in the US!


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

KenOC said:


> What kind of school are you speaking of? High school? College? There's plenty of opportunity to "study music" and play in orchestras at many colleges, for instance.


Not in the UK. The general amateur musician cannot get to play in college or university orchestras.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

science said:


> I love amateur music.


I agree. It breathes life into the soul of music.


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

Ramako said:


> I agree. It breathes life into the soul of music.


I am interested in which amateur orchestra concerts you go to listen to on a regular basis?

Please do not include ones where someone in the orchestra has asked you to go and listen,

Please do not include ones that you play in.

How much do you pay for your tickets?

I am not interested in orchestras that people themselves play in because they don't ever hear them from the point of view of an audience, and I am not interested in ones where someone in the orchestra has asked you to go, because your reasons for going are not entirely due to you wanting to go to listen to a particular orchestra. I would be interested in how much you expect to spend on tickets for these orchestras which you have no relation with.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Jaws said:


> I am interested in which amateur orchestra concerts you go to listen to on a regular basis?
> 
> Please do not include ones where someone in the orchestra has asked you to go and listen,
> 
> ...


Up to a certain age, my parents paid for concerts. Now I am a music student so I either get to go to concerts free or for ridiculously cheap tickets, professional or not. I am quite fortunate in this respect.

I go to no kind of concerts on a regular basis.

Hence most concerts on an equal footing. I am not a concert aficionado. Please feel free to batter me down, however I think what communicates is the sheer enthusiasm, which can make up for a great deal of technical skill.

However I was talking about amateur _music_. Making music is part of music - indeed it is probably the most important part of music. It is the concert hall mentality which starts placing a greater emphasis on the abstract listener - that the people taking part having fun is no longer enough. That is fantastic - but it is not all there is to music. I think being disinterested in the music from the outside is a somewhat stringent requirement on the definition of music.


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

Ramako said:


> Up to a certain age, my parents paid for concerts. Now I am a music student so I either get to go to concerts free or for ridiculously cheap tickets, professional or not. I am quite fortunate in this respect.
> 
> I go to no kind of concerts on a regular basis.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong I am all in favour of people having fun making music. What I am not in favour of is people who never go to listen to amateur concerts charging their audience expensive ticket prices.

If as an amateur player someone is not interested in listening to other amateurs having fun, I have to ask the question, "how interested is this person really in amateur music?" There is a big difference in fun and enjoyment level for many amateur musicians between playing music and listening to it. My argument is, that if you are not prepared to listen to an amateur orchestra to which you have no connection, then you can't really expect people to listen to you.

Many people who do listen to amateur orchestras are supporting a family member or friend enjoy their hobby.

I think £12 is a lot to ask someone to pay so that the person playing in the orchestra and enjoying their hobby has an audience to play to. In this relationship the audience is not really getting as much benefit for £12 as the person playing in the orchestra because the audience are doing the players a favour by being there. This relationship is absolutely fine for youth orchestras, where parents are doing their children a favour by supporting them in their enthusiasm. If an adult amateur musician is looking on orchestral concerts as having this same relationship, then I would say that they have a very immature attitude

I also think that £12 pounds is a lot to pay to watch enthusiasm. How many supporters do you think there would be for an adult football team which had lots of enthusiasm but lost every game?

If watching enthusiasm is so enjoyable then why aren't the playing orchestra members keen on watching the enthusiasm of other amateur orchestras?


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