# Which American composers are greater than Telemann ?



## Ritwik Ghosh (May 14, 2014)

I welcome rational arguments.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

..................................


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Yanni. He da bomb!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Yanni. He da bomb!


Yanni _is a *Greek* pianist, keyboardist, composer, and music producer who has spent his adult life in the United States._


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Not many American composers from the High Baroque Era to choose from.

Actually, none at all


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

violadude said:


> Not many American composers from the High Baroque Era to choose from.
> 
> Actually, none at all


Never heard of Humming-Buffalo of Sioux tribe or Whistles-With-Whistlers from Apaches?


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## Guest (May 14, 2014)

I am five-starring this thread.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

I like Yanni. Haters gonna hate.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Maybe *Rafael Antonio Castellanos*?

He wrote several interesting vocal works, if he compares to Telemann who was the most prolific Baroque composer bar none is doubtful!

/ptr


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

It's finally happened. With this thread, we've run out of rational topics. _LOL!!!_


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

The OP didn't specify baroque composers so that makes it a lot easier! I'll go with -- with -- . 

I'll get back to you on this.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeez, you think you've made enough threads about who's greater than who? Join a sports team if you're this obsessed with competition.


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## Guest (May 14, 2014)

Weston said:


> The OP didn't specify baroque composers so that makes it a lot easier!


Good point 

Perhaps a "TC Top Recommended American Composers Better Than Telemann" is in order? I would rather not facilitate though


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Vesuvius said:


> Jeez, you think you've made enough threads about who's greater than who? Join a sports team if you're this obsessed with competition.










.......................................


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

There isn't one. Samuel Barber might be the best we have.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> There isn't one. Samuel Barber might be the best we have.


Ah, worked up now to the conservative modern romantics from the first half of the 20th century , I see.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Aramis said:


> Never heard of Humming-Buffalo of Sioux tribe or Whistles-With-Whistlers from Apaches?


I was assuming we were sticking within the Western Classical Music tradition.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

violadude said:


> I was assuming we were sticking within the Western Classical Music tradition.


So much for Harry Partch, then.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

PetrB said:


> So much for Harry Partch, then.


You don't consider him a classical composer?

Edit: Ah, I see he himself didn't consider himself a classical composer.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

As american as a mega-chain hamburger


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

aleazk said:


> As american as a mega-chain hamburger


If old Ben had to depend on his music for fame, he would be blissfully forgotten. He did better as an instrument designer.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

KenOC said:


> If old Ben had to depend on his music for fame, he would be blissfully forgotten. He did better as an instrument designer.


To be fair with Ben, the piece was intended as a joke (it only uses open strings I think). It's a moderately funny piece and a funny idea. Of course, a professional composer would have done it better.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Ah, worked up now to the conservative modern romantics from the first half of the 20th century , I see.


I've given Modernism many chances. Just not my thing I guess. Romanticism hits the right spots. I love the drama.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

is getting really pissed off and thinking about throwing his book at the TC Board .


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

aleazk said:


> As american as a mega-chain hamburger


Actually, I find the piece has a nice kind of optimism about it. Sort of like Haydn but with less variety and structural complexity. Never knew Benjamin Franklin composed, if this is actually a composition of his .


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Telemann was a mass-producing composer, a lot of routinely and unimportant works without much to say, and few of real depth or interest.

So it´s pretty easy to mention some American ones who are more interesting - I´d prefer a representative collection of the works of either Ives, Barber, Rochberg, Carter, Wuorinen, Sessions, Searle, Toch, Crumb, Partch, Cowell, Copland, Hovhaness, Brant, Diamond or Persichetti, and probably a few more too.


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

John Tesh
P Diddy
William Shatner


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## Guest (May 17, 2014)

Interest group of "Americans," there joen_cph.

At least one of them never even travelled to the US, that I could find. And while I approve of calling everyone from this continent "American," to mention Brant but not Ginastera, Toch but not Gerhard (or Schoenberg or Stravinsky or Varese), makes me question the whole list.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Humphrey Searle was a miss, sorry, being British. 
Hopefully your appreciation of Telemann is still intact .


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> Telemann was a mass-producing composer, a lot of routinely and unimportant works without much to say, and few of real depth or interest.


One of the interests of Telemann--in addition to his productivity--is that he seems to have been almost entirely self-taught as a composer. A nice American analog might be Anthony Philip Heinrich, who taught himself music and wrote a ton of it. Lots of enjoyable if not particularly memorable music--and distinctively American. I'll listen to him in a pinch.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

joen_cph said:


> Telemann was a mass-producing composer, a lot of routinely and unimportant works without much to say, and few of real depth or interest.


Telemann was a mass-producing Composer. A lot of amazingly consistent enjoyable music. The many important works include his Tafelmusik, Concertos, Fantasias, and Overture.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The best Telemann I know is the _Hamburger Ebb und Fluth Ouverture_, the "_Ouverture in C_" and especially the _Ouverture des Nations Anciens et Modernes_ - there´s an excellent old recording by Marriner on Argo-Decca. I also like the "_Ino-Cantata"_ and the "_Fantasias for Flute_".

Actually I do have a quite comprehensive Telemann collection, around 13-14 LPs, including the "_Tafelmusik_". Skipped "_Socrates_", though - it seemed an endless array of recitatives. 
His harpsichord pieces are said to be somewhat entertaining.

The Brilliant Classics 29CD Telemann Edition is probably the best option for those seeking a big chunk of works http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/June11/Telemann_94104.htm


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## Benny (Feb 4, 2013)

Gershwin, Bloch, Copland, Barber and Bernstein.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

Samuel Adler
Samuel Barber
Leonard Bernstein
William Bolcom
Glenn Branca
John Cage
Elliott Carter
Michael Colgrass
Aaron Copland
David Diamond
Morton Feldman
Irving Fine
Vittorio Giannini
Philip Glass
Morton Gould
John Harbison
Lou Harrison
Alan Hovhaness
Charles Ives
Norman Dello Joio
Phil Kline
Erich Wolfgang Korngold
Ezra Laderman
David Lang
Hannah Lash
Lowell Liebermann
Peter Lieberson
Missy Mazzoli
Edgar Meyer
Meredith Monk
Stephen Paulus
Vincent Persichetti
Walter Piston
Steve Reich
Christopher Rouse
Randall Thompson
John Williams


Just to name a few from my collection.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

So what form of communication is faster then Telemann? Heh-heh...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't care. What I want to know is, which American composers are _exactly as good_ as Telemann?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I don't care. What I want to know is, which american composers are _exactly as good_ as Telemann?


Exactly? To how many significant places?


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Carter, Partch, Babbitt and Feldman.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Exactly? To how many significant places?


All the way to the insignificant ones.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> Telemann was a mass-producing composer, a lot of routinely and unimportant works without much to say, and few of real depth or interest.
> 
> So it´s pretty easy to mention some American ones who are more interesting - I´d prefer a representative collection of the works of either Ives, Barber, Rochberg, Carter, Wuorinen, Sessions, Searle, Toch, Crumb, Partch, Cowell, Copland, Hovhaness, Brant, Diamond or Persichetti, and probably a few more too.


Telemann is excellent. Don't know why many have problems with his music. He's actually one of my favourite composers.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I don't care. What I want to know is, which American composers are _exactly as good_ as Telemann?


My standard answer would always be PDQ Bach, the greatest psycho fictional musical import the Americas has heard...

/ptr


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Charles Ives, Aaron Copland and Leonard Bernstein were all much greater composers than Telemann.

Classical radio owes its very existence to fillers by Telemann.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Telemann was a great composer, stop slagging the guy. Listen to his music first.






The beginning of the Brockes Passion has some great instrumentation:


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Telemann was a great composer, stop slagging the guy. Listen to his music first.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This! I don't understand all this Telemann hate either. A lot of brilliant works.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Dustin said:


> This! I don't understand all this Telemann hate either. A lot of brilliant works.


I don't understand why believing that there exist American composers who were better than Telemann constitutes "hate".


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> I don't understand why believing that there exist American composers who were better than Telemann constitutes "hate".


I'm not commenting on that. I said "hate" because of the several posts calling him boring filler and all the likes those posts are getting.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Dustin said:


> I'm not commenting on that. I said "hate" because of the several posts calling him boring filler and all the likes those posts are getting.


True enough. Telemann did write a lot of music, and like Vivaldi's, it has a reputation for being "cut to order". I don't get worked up about it much either way, though I enjoy the occasional Telemann piece.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I'll admit I chuckled softly when I saw John Tesh mentioned, but I don't think I gave the post a "like" at least.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Well, not listening to Telemann means missing out on some great baroque, imo.






Listen to how well he senses the sounds of the instruments and knows how to integrate each instrument at the right time - especially for the flute in the second movement (02:14 - 04:19). He was a master at this.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The closest I've come to Telemann in the last 10 years is when I was in vacation on Jamaica and this dude told me " tell it like it is mon!"


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

hpowders said:


> The closest I've come to Telemann in the last 10 years is when I was in vacation on Jamaica and this dude told me " tell it like it is mon!"


Hahahaha now that's funny.


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## WorthyYeti (May 18, 2014)

I really like Gershwin, but is he too jazzy for this discussion?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I actually like Telemann more than Vivaldi on average, except when it comes to Vivaldi's vocal works.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Well, not listening to Telemann means missing out on some great baroque, imo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is simply terrific! As much fun as bluegrass jamming! Maybe Telemann can't push the limits the way Bach can, can't spin out those great structural arcs or take us on profound spiritual journeys, but he sure as hell can write well-crafted, tirelessly inventive, high-spirited, and often affecting music. And he appears to have done it nonstop for most of his 86 years. The more of him I hear, the higher my estimate of him rises - and old J.S. didn't think him too shabby either. For the interested:

http://music.yodelout.com/music-essays-telemann-a-forgotten-master/

Until we've heard a goodly sample of Telemann's gargantuan output (as much music as Bach's and Handel's combined, did I read somewhere?!) we might well be cautious with our comparisons.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Well said, Woodduck. I could've provided much more examples, actually.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Dustin said:


> Hahahaha now that's funny.


I do what I can. :tiphat:


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Telemann needs more 5/8 and mellotron, otherwise he is better than some East of Ohio.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

chalkpie said:


> Telemann needs more 5/8 and mellotron, otherwise he is better than some East of Ohio.


Speaking of Ohio, how can Telemann possibly compete with this?


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## MJongo (Aug 6, 2011)

Ives, Mingus, and Captain Beefheart, to name three.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Speaking of Ohio, how can Telemann possibly compete with this?


Three years on Talk Classical, and you've only now discovered this treasure?

Allow me to say - and I'm sure I speak for many here - how sorry I am.

People, we're not doing our job.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Old News*



Woodduck said:


> Three years on Talk Classical, and you've only now discovered this treasure?
> 
> Allow me to say - and I'm sure I speak for many here - how sorry I am.
> 
> People, we're not doing our job.


I have actually submitted two posts about this masterpiece: http://www.talkclassical.com/30753-most-irritating-20c-pop-2.html#post612554

What is really pathetic is the geezer version.

Note: One of the biggest hits in 1968.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

joen_cph said:


> Telemann was a mass-producing composer, a lot of routinely and unimportant works without much to say, and few of real depth or interest...


That's just Modernist ideology, I mean who sez muzak has to be important and all that boring stuff?

I mean did those dry academics like Sessions and highbrows like Carter do anything as entertaining as ol' Carl Philip's Overture for Four Horns and Orchestra aka Alster Overture (you know the one _that you mentioned _ [*edit!], with the chorus of frogs and larks or whatever)???



violadude said:


> Not many American composers from the High Baroque Era to choose from.
> 
> Actually, none at all


And I'm sorry but I have to contradict you, seriously and earnestly (not!).

PDQ Bach is still alive and kicking, travelled from 1722 in a time machine - borrowed Dr. Who's Tardis, as a matter of fact. I think he's American but if not, let's make him honorary American - he recorded for Telarc, didn't he?

He also had a wig, so that settles it, then. He's 110 per cent genuine Baroque as well :lol:...


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Concerning Telemann, it´s not just a modernist theorem that makes me think of him as "routinely". For one thing, it´s the repetitive divertimento-character of a lot of the works. Also, I also prefer music which has more to say emotionally, besides dealing with issues more relevant to our own time. So, in a way, a romantically coloured preference. 

Same reason I´m not a fan of the majority of Haydn´s works, say most of the piano sonatas.

But a bit of quirkiness - being it from Telemann, the Baroque Pantheon composers, Zelenka, Rebel or Desmarets, is always welcome ;-).

People´s tastes are temperamental to a much larger degree than it´s generally thought of.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> Concerning Telemann, it´s not just a modernist theorem that makes me think of him as "routinely". For one thing, it´s the repetitive divertimento-character of a lot of the works. Also, I also prefer music which has more to say emotionally, besides dealing with issues more relevant to our own time. So, in a way, a romantically coloured preference.
> 
> Same reason I´m not a fan of the majority of Haydn´s works, say most of the piano sonatas.
> 
> ...


Well, Telemann does have his more emotional moments. Maybe you weren't listening to the right pieces? Sid, you were referring to Carl Philipp's Alster Overture? You mean Georg Philipp's?


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## Svelte Silhouette (Nov 7, 2013)

Was Telemann an American. I'd say unfair comparison.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

joen_cph said:


> Concerning Telemann, it´s not just a modernist theorem that makes me think of him as "routinely". For one thing, it´s the repetitive divertimento-character of a lot of the works. Also, I also prefer music which has more to say emotionally, besides dealing with issues more relevant to our own time. So, in a way, a romantically coloured preference.
> 
> Same reason I´m not a fan of the majority of Haydn´s works, say most of the piano sonatas.
> 
> ...


I take all your points, of course it was tongue in cheek.

A while back I made this thread that speaks to the issues in relation to many composers before the Romantic era (but not solely so, because many of the greats of 19th and 20th centuries did such music to supplement their income, salon music is the best example).

http://www.talkclassical.com/19502-music-made-order.html

I quickly glanced at that thread , its only one page, but I didn't single out Telemann in my opening post. I referred to bigger fish, Mozart and also Sibelius and a more obvious one being Milhaud.

I am not that worried about the music made to order (or more derisively referred to as "sewing machine music") because composers, like us, have to make money to live on. Its a well known fact that Brahms' biggest hit was the Hungarian Dances, which he didn't assign an opus number to. It was a big earner, but they're not much more than arrangements of music played by gypsy bands at the time. But I ask myself, if he didn't do that, then maybe he couldn't do his more "highbrow" works.

A number of composers continued to do this throughout the 20th century, and they saw little need for distinction between so called high and low art. Its really Modernist ideology that made music that is light, or just well crafted but not very profound, to be a no-no. I am currently reading a recent book on this topic, and once I'm finished with it I might do a thread discussing what I read.

But back to Herr Telemann:



HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Well, Telemann does have his more emotional moments. Maybe you weren't listening to the right pieces? Sid, you were referring to Carl Philipp's Alster Overture? You mean Georg Philipp's?


Well maybe I was thinking of his long lost brother...or maybe I was just wrong. More likely the latter


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> There isn't one. Samuel Barber might be the best we have.


Nonsense! And what do you mean, "we," Kemosabe?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> So what form of communication is faster then Telemann?


Q: What form of communication is faster then Telemann?
A: Tell a woman.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Samuel Barber? It seems Telemann is now more popular than any American composer. Or maybe that's a statement about Baroque music versus modern music. I don't know.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Telemann was a master of orchestration, imo. I get so much pleasure from listening to how well he knew to combine instrumental sounds of all varieites.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Telemann was a master of orchestration, imo. I get so much pleasure from listening to how well he knew to combine instrumental sounds of all varieites.


Yeah he was awesome. I bet CPE Bach was influenced heavily from him.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> Samuel Barber? It seems Telemann is now more popular than any American composer. Or maybe that's a statement about Baroque music versus modern music. I don't know.


Baroque music is popular because so much of it for the majority who listen to it -- both when it was contemporary and new -- _is essentially non-think wallpaper,_ a pleasant string of harmonies riding on a pulse. People put it on to accompany doing housework, for goodness' sake.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

was a much more profound composer than






ever was.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> Samuel Barber? It seems Telemann is now more popular than any American composer. Or maybe that's a statement about Baroque music versus modern music. I don't know.


Telemann is performed less frequently than Barber (or Copland), according to Bachtrack. He may get more radio play, but that's mostly because the radio plays so much Baroque music anyway. Anyway, Telemann is in no sense more popular than Barber, because the latter has a genuine popular "hit" in Adagio for Strings, that anyone (just about) would recognize (it's also one of those pieces you've talked about that's been popular ever since it was written!), while the former has none, and probably never will have any.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

In terms of quality, Carter was a greater composer. Actually, who the hell knows, their work is so different and they're separated by an ocean of time. I just like Carter. Telemann does nothing for me.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Baroque music is popular because so much of it for the majority who listen to it -- both when it was contemporary and new -- _is essentially non-think wallpaper,_ a pleasant string of harmonies riding on a pulse. People put it on to accompany doing housework, for goodness' sake.


Is there something wrong with enjoying music whatever you are doing? Ridiculous stereotype. People could easily be doing housework with Carter.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> Is there something wrong with enjoying music whatever you are doing? Ridiculous stereotype. People could easily be doing housework with Carter.


Yep - I must admit I'm doing a spreadsheet right now while listening to Ligeti


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes. Baroque music (not including Bach & Handel) is fine background music. Excellent to help keep time with sewing machines.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

"Generally" Baroque has much more peppiness and structure than the later eras. I put on some Tartini and I'm about ready to boogie. 

Now, Bach... that's a different story.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> View attachment 43957
> was a much more profound composer than
> View attachment 43958
> ever was.


Well, I think this thread should be filed under the category of highly subjective. If you ask musicians who know Telemann's music, you'll see that they have great respect and admiration for it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

neoshredder said:


> Is there something wrong with enjoying music whatever you are doing? People could easily be doing housework with Carter.


In this case it would be the housework that made the music easier.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I am now going through a Baroque phase. I do want to get more Telemann. I don't think its a problem to listen to music when doing something else, like having a meal. Especially these days when we're all short of time. And what the hell do people want me to listen to when I get home from a hectic day? Why not have music that's immediately enjoyable, such as Baroque or mainstream jazz for that matter. I do it often, and it doesn't stop me from listening to heavy stuff at other more appropriate times. 

There's a time and place for everything as they say. As I said before, music made to order doesn't sit well with Romantic notions of what music should be, and in some respects Modernism is an extension of Romanticism (not in all respects, look at Satie's concept of arm-chair music or muzak, it all sounds the same and yet he's considered one of the most innovative composers of his time). Even the great Romantics like Brahms, Saint-Saens and Dvorak wrote their fair share of encores and 'bread and butter' music. Beethoven and Schubert wrote schrammel-muzik, the music played in taverns and cafes. So what?


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