# Odd time signatures



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

A recent article from Atlantic: "The Anthropological Reason It Feels Weird to Dance to Brubeck's 'Take Five' "

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...-weird-to-dance-to-brubecks-take-five/265991/

Here's Mr. Bartok with the 'Alla Bulgarese' from his 5th Quartet -- 4+2+3 in the scherzo proper, 3+2+2+3 in the central trio. Guess those Bulgarians have happy feet!






Other examples of odd time sigs in well-known music?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The Rite of Spring, anyone? The Sacrificial Dance begins 3/16, 5/16, 3/16, 4/16, 5/16, but with all the pauses and accents, you don't feel it that way either.

The trio of the scherzo of Mahler's 6th is full of odd shifts of meter (and odd accents).


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Hmm... I wonder where I learned to follow these time signatures. Perhaps I heard something frequently in my childhood, or perhaps I just "re-trained" myself, listening to all that math rock until I could follow along better. I adore irregular time signatures and it is one of the main reasons I love a lot of non-western music.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

The Copland Duo for Flute and Piano is very strange with rhythm, it pretty much is inconsistent in all 3 movements. Always changing meter, tempo, suddenly use of a syncopation in the middle of it, etc.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Yes, I call rubbish with this article, claiming that Western music isn't filled with irregular time signatures. Perhaps not to the extent that some other music is from different cultures, but there is a lot of Western music and a decent part of it is in irregular time. Perhaps your average person is "culturally trained" against it, but there is a pretty healthy amount of people who aren't; perhaps more than this article would lead you to believe.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Cnote11 said:


> Yes, I call rubbish with this article, claiming that Western music isn't filled with irregular time signatures. Perhaps not to the extent that some other music is from different cultures, but there is a lot of Western music and a decent part of it is in irregular time. Perhaps your average person is "culturally trained" against it, but there is a pretty healthy amount of people who aren't; perhaps more than this article would lead you to believe.


Funny that they should mention Tchaikovsky....






The thing that's most wrong with the article is that classical music is full of shifting accents within 3 and 4 beat meters. I hate it when people bring up syncopation as if it was invented by Ragtime. It's true that classical musicologists are often unaware of other traditions, but pop/rock music writers seem entirely blind to all except the most well known bits of the classical music, and they don't even understand those well. Jazz writers are far more knowledgeable. (I know it sounds funny to say this in relation to a jazz article, but if the writer couldn't even keep straight the fact that Take Five is not consistently in 5/8...)

[Why am I forced into bringing Tchaikovsky up constantly today...?]

EDIT: I notice, after writing this, that someone had already brought up the above example in the comments.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> Funny that they should mention Tchaikovsky....


Tchaikovsky was a latecomer! Anybody know the earliest published music in quintuple time, post-renaissance?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Waltz, anyone? We're bi - symmetrical, have two legs, and generations have not only dealt with but loved it.

The writer made a very superficial fluff piece for the rawest of laymen. This is his job.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Waltz, anyone? We're bi - symmetrical, have two legs, and generations have not only dealt with but loved it.
> 
> The writer made a very superficial fluff piece for the rawest of laymen. This is his job.


He said that 3/4 doesn't count and is just talking about irregular time signatures. The traditional waltz wouldn't fit into his category, I guess.

Although I must agree to an extent with the last part of your post.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Waltz, anyone? We're bi - symmetrical, have two legs, and generations have not only dealt with but loved it.
> 
> The writer made a very superficial fluff piece for the rawest of laymen. This is his job.


Her job, actually. She's an entertainment writer. Not even a full-time music writer. I would say that that explains why she knows next to nothing about music, but there are legions of pop writers (the kind who write 1000 words on the latest Katy Perry music video) who are proud that they know nothing.

More on topic, Mars from The Planets is in 5/8, and although it's regularly copied/plagiarized/borrowed/imitated/homaged for soundtracks it usually ends up in 2 or 3 (see Gladiator).


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Those kind of rhythms are called "_Additive rhythms_" or "_Aksak rhythm_". It consist on a fixed time signature, say 5/8, but which arises as the composition or sum of other (shorter and asymmetrical) time signatures (for example, 5/8=2/8+3/8). It is found very often in the folk music of east-europe, like Hungary. It's not a surprise, then, that composers like Bartok and Ligeti are found using this in their compositions.
In this section of Ligeti's "Hamburg Concerto" you can hear a 9/8 which arises as the sum of 4/8 + 3/8 + 2/8:






(the movement starts at 4:24 and the section I say, called opportunely as Aksak by Ligeti, at 4:41 until the end of the movement)


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

Villa-Lobos used some weird time signatures but like Stravinsky (as in the S du P) wrote accented groups within them, presumably just to be awkward. The second episode in Uirapuru is in "march" time but written in 3/4.

Ferneyhough uses some unusual time signatures. Carceri d'Invenzione specifies 3/12 4/10 5/12 and the like.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

To allow for the still fuzzy principals of the tonal system, late Renaissance and early Baroque music can have uneven bars and its a really cool effect, makes it less predictable than the high baroque even.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Riddle limerick:

Chopin found his day quite a bore
So decided to write in five-four
It wasn't his norm,
'Twas traditional form
Still, we usually click on "Ignore."


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I seem to recall the 2nd movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th is in something odd, maybe 5/4.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures

Those meters where the denominator is not a standard, 1, 2, 4, 8, etc, like 9/10, are 'irrational meters' - there is some fuss over them, their working most clearly in a score in a context with a 'rational' meter each side of it. The academic debates still raging over their merit or 'legitimacy,' while some composers have used them and others are now using them extensively, if not exclusively.

Barber ~ Piano concerto, iii, Allegro molto, 5/8





Ravel ~ Daphnis et Chloe, finale- Danse Generale, again, in 5 (starts @ 2'37'' --steadily, in earnest, @ 6'00'' in link)





Bernstein ~ Chichester Psalms, part 1; in 7,both rhythm and meter sounding a bit 'show biz / pop - nifty' -- after the intro, ca. @ 1'59'' in link





Mixed meter, more than you can shake a stick at, in much of Stravinksy, much of Bartok.


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Mussorgsky's Pictures was originally in 11/4, but publishers decided to change it to 5/4 + 6/4 for better sense of phrasing, I guess.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Toddlertoddy said:


> Mussorgsky's Pictures was originally in 11/4, but publishers decided to change it to 5/4 + 6/4 for better sense of phrasing, I guess.


The Promenades from Pictures are written in mixed meters, including some measures in 7/4 (these include those omitted by Ravel).

BTW, outstanding questions:

1 - What's the oldest post-renaissance piece in 5/4?
2 - What did Chopin write in 5/4?
I'll add:
3 - What familiar and popular piece is in 7/4?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

KenOC said:


> 1 - What's the oldest post-renaissance piece in 5/4?
> 2 - What did Chopin write in 5/4?
> 3 - What familiar and popular piece is in 7/4?


Anybody at all?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Anybody at all?


I'm looking forward to the answers. PM me if you don't want to give them away!


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Anybody at all?


1 ) I think there is a part from Handel's_ Orlando_ (1732) opera in act 2, scene 11 ("mad scene") in 5/8 and Aria "Se la sorte mi condanna" from Andrea Adolfati's opera _Arianna_ (1750) which is in 5/4....That's all I could find, sorry.

2 ) About Chopin, there is a movement from his Piano Sonata No.1 in C minor, the Larghetto (3rd) in 5/4. He wrote it as a student and it wasn't published until 1851, after his death.

3) The Firebird is the most popular I guess, and entirely in 7/4...but there are many others pieces in 7/4, usually in the 20th century...


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

> What familiar and popular piece is in 7/4?


"Money" (Pink Floyd) uses both 7/4 and 4/4.

Led Zeppelin's "Kashmir" uses 3/4 in the guitar and 4/4 in the drums in the opening section. "Four Sticks" uses a mix of 5/8 and 6/8. A lot of Led Zeppelin's music is complex enough to be academically interesting (I have a book that examines it and reads like a 200-page term paper).


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)




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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Renaissance said:


> 1 ) I think there is a part from Handel's_ Orlando_ (1732) opera in act 2, scene 11 ("mad scene") in 5/8 and Aria "Se la sorte mi condanna" from Andrea Adolfati's opera _Arianna_ (1750) which is in 5/4....That's all I could find, sorry.
> 
> 2 ) About Chopin, there is a movement from his Piano Sonata No.1 in C minor, the Larghetto (3rd) in 5/4. He wrote it as a student and it wasn't published until 1851, after his death.
> 
> 3) The Firebird is the most popular I guess, and entirely in 7/4...but there are many others pieces in 7/4, usually in the 20th century...


Wow, good work there! My comments:

1) Had no idea about the baroque stuff. Are both these numbers entirely in 5/4? The earliest I could find was Reicha's 20th of his 36 Fugues for piano (1803) in quintuple time.

2) Spot on with the Chopin.

3) Yes once again, the finale from the Firebird is in septuple time (both of the suites and the complete ballet). Most certainly "popular."


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Stravinsky is the master of messed-up rhythm. Just try sightreading the last 5 minutes of the Rite of Spring, _pick any part._


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Stravinsky is the master of messed-up rhythm. Just try sightreading the last 5 minutes of the Rite of Spring, _pick any part._


It's been more than eight months since I played it. I still have nightmares about the Danse Sacrale.


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## rborganist (Jan 29, 2013)

Sometimes an odd time signature such is 5/4 is what fits a text best. I just finished a Christmas cantata and my song for the shepherds was in 5/4 because that was where the accents fell naturally (I was using the text from the King James Version of the Bible) Time signatures can also have particular vibes to them--7/8 has a playful feel (check out an piece called Deck the Halls in 7/8). Of course, sometimes composers seem to have no particular reason for choosing a time signature


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

The verses of "All You Need Is Love" by The Beatles are largely in 7/4.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

I just attended a lunchtime recital by a Bulgarian pianist and heavy on Bulgarian composers that was a veritable feast of odd time signatures:


Tania Stavreva, Piano

Rhythmic Movement (2’)
Tania Stavreva (b. 1983)

Ratchenitza, Op.29, No.6 (4’)
Mouvement rythmique, Op.37, No.6
Pancho Vladigerov (1899 – 1978)

Danzas Argentinas, Op.2 (8’)
I. Danza del viejo boyero (“Dance of the Old Herdsman”)
II. Danza de la moza donosa (“Dance of the Beautiful Maiden”)
III. Danza del gaucho matrero (“Dance of the Arrogant Cowboy”)
Alberto Ginastera (1916 – 1983)

From Impresiones Intimas (7’)
Pajaro triste (“Sad Birds”)
La barca (“The Boat”)
Cuna (“The Cradle”)
Federico Mompou (1893 – 1987)

Clair de lune (4’)
Claude Debussy (1862 – 1918)

Variations on a Bulgarian Folk Song Dilmano, Dilbero, Op.2 (12’)
Alexander Vladigerov (1933 – 1993)


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> The verses of "All You Need Is Love" by The Beatles are largely in 7/4.


Yeah, but I doubt that Lennon pre-conceived it as 7 beats, I think it was 4/4 plus 3/4 to fit his vocal phrasing. It adds up the same, but I've also heard a Hank Williams Sr. record with an odd extra two beats, and this sort of practice of "following the vocal," especially where vocalists are concerned, is probably what it is.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

KenOC said:


> 3) Yes once again, the finale from the Firebird is in septuple time (both of the suites and the complete ballet). Most certainly "popular."


Not as popular as The Firebird of course, Ken, but the third movement of the Brahms Piano Trio in C minor is in 7/4 (in the score, divided into measures of 3/4, 2/4 and 2/4).

PS: Just checked Wiki and see this example is there along with many others--I had no idea septuple meter was as common as it is. . .


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## Turangalîla (Jan 29, 2012)

Nevermind! 

Delete, please, mods


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hausmusik said:


> Not as popular as The Firebird of course, Ken, but the third movement of the Brahms Piano Trio in C minor is in 7/4 (in the score, divided into measures of 3/4, 2/4 and 2/4).


That's quite amazing. The whole 3rd movement? Gotta check it out, thanks!


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Ken, just checked wiki on this. It's just the outer sections--it changes to even more unusual compound meters--including 15/8!--in the central section and brief coda:

"An example of chamber music from the later 19th century is found in the Trio No. 3 for piano, violin, and violoncello, op. 101, by Johannes Brahms. In the third movement (Andante grazioso), the main (outer) sections are in 7/4 (notated as a recurring 3/4 + 2/4 + 2/4), while the central section is in compound-quintuple time: 15/8 (notated as 9/8 + 6/8) with 9/8 turnarounds, and an eight-bar coda in 9/8."

Brahms is known for being rhythmically interesting (hemiola and all that good stuff). The 1st mvmt. of the Op. 51/1 in C Minor is in 3/2--not as exotic as 7/4 or 7/8 but still somewhat rare (I think???) as far as triple meters go? I would like to know more about music theory as pertains to rhythm--i.e. I'd like to know why Brahms would designate this movement as 3/2 rather than 12/8.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2013)

I'm just going to listen to this tonight, I have not picked it up before


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Hausmusik said:


> ...The 1st mvmt. of the Op. 51/1 in C Minor is in 3/2--not as exotic as 7/4 or 7/8 but still somewhat rare (I think???) as far as triple meters go? I would like to know more about music theory as pertains to rhythm--i.e. I'd like to know why Brahms would designate this movement as 3/2 rather than 12/8.


I don't have the score, so this is what I'm hearing.

At the very beginning of the Brahms, the cello is playing a continuous string of notes. This string of notes can be heard in groups of 4. You should be able to tap your foot to it every 4 notes. Your "foot taps" will then add up in groups of 3.

The higher melody above this is playing a longer, more spread-out melody which covers 3 beats, fitting in with 3 of your foot-taps. It pauses.

Then, about 40 seconds in, the situation is somewhat reversed. Notice that the chord changes occur every 3 beats, with a lower bass melody in 3, overlaid with higher, faster phrases which divide each of the 3 beats into 4 parts.

As to why this is not in 12/8, that's used for a 4-beat structure with each beat divided into 3 parts; the Brahms is the reverse, a 3-beat with each beat divided into 4.

In a time signature, the top number denotes how many beats, and the bottom number denotes what note value is used for that beat. Since 12/8 is a 4-beat feel, but with each beat divided into 3 parts, there is no "bottom number" or note value which can be used as a "3-division," since all Western note values go by 2's: sixteenth, eighth, quarter, half, and whole. To get the "3-division," a dotted note must be used. Thus, in a 12/8 time, a dotted quarter note is used on each beat, but cannot be written into the time signature.This is one of the great shortcomings of our rhythm notation system, IMHO.

With the Brahms, it's 3 beats, so no problem.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Millions, that's a great explanation. I appreciate that. Your thinking makes sense to me. Though I don't have a lot of experience with 12/8, it doubles 6/8, and I should have remembered that 6/8 (always?) breaks into 3+3. So it makes sense that you don't use 12/8 if you want 4+4+4 not 3+3+3+3.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2013)

Has any one a score that could be posted or a link to one? particularly the Brahms Trio but others would be interesting.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Hausmusik said:


> Millions, that's a great explanation. I appreciate that. Your thinking makes sense to me. Though I don't have a lot of experience with 12/8, it doubles 6/8, and I should have remembered that 6/8 (always?) breaks into 3+3. So it makes sense that you don't use 12/8 if you want 4+4+4 not 3+3+3+3.


You're welcome, Haus; I'm glad I got it right. Actually, to formulate and articulate an answer helps me as well.:tiphat:


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Andante, www.imslp.org has free scores for just about every pre-20th c. classical piece you are likely to want.

Here's the Brahms trio:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Piano_Trio_No.3,_Op.101_(Brahms,_Johannes)


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2013)

Thanks Hausmusic I will check it out.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Sometimes non-classical music is very good at odd rhythms too. It was a hallmark of early progressive rock. Here's a blatant novelty song by obscure progressive rock group Egg. It's corny and funny but it also sends chills up my spine.

"I used to play in four time when I was very small.
Recently I've realized the folly of it all.
So grim a thought disturbed me, upset my peace of mind.
I started writing songs in all the rhythms I could find
Like five...
[I love this cool startling change]

Seven is a jolly good time, seven is a jolly good time
It's such a very good sign to play in seven time

I found it hard to follow, my foot became confused
My facial muscles echoed the rhythms that I used
And now I found my (next day?) playing in a groove
I gathered all the notes up and jumped them through a hoop
As in eleven...
[Wow wow wow!! Okay, I'm easily impressed.]

Repeat chorus . . .





Okay, that was a very unsubtle use of odd time, and I love it for the shock value that it is, but other non-classical artists such as Ian Anderson (formerly of Jethro Tull) have written very nice pieces lately in 11/8 time, for instance, and the cool thing is, you can't easily tell without counting. They flow so naturally. I think this is where real brilliance resides with odd time signatures, both in classical and non-classical alike, if it still feels natural.

I love odd times in classical too of course, but I have to say it can be overused to the point of murkiness. That is a problem I have with Boulez. When his piano sonatas have every measure a different time signature, 13/8: 3/4: 11/4: 7/8x2, etc., what is there for the listener to latch onto? Or the performer? Speech has a more regular rhythm than that. It may was well not have a time signature and be free form. Or in other words if every measure is a surprise then really none of them are.

I guess I'm saying when it comes to rhythm I like weird in your face subtlety in moderation.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2013)

Weston said:


> Sometimes non-classical music is very good at odd rhythms too. It was a hallmark of early progressive rock. Here's a blatant novelty song by obscure progressive rock group Egg. It's corny and funny but it also sends chills up my spine.


Also a couple that spring to mind in the Jazz scene are Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" 5/4 time and "Unsquare Dance" 7/4 time.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Bernstein seemed to have fun with numbers: in the first and third movements ('free-style events' and 'diaspora dances') of his Concerto for Orchestra he uses at various times 7/4, 7/8, 18/8, 9/4 and 3/8 - all based around the Hebrew word for seven ('sheva') and the Hebrew numeric value accorded to the word for 'life' ('hai' = 18). A lot of his output features jerky rhythms - 'America' probably being the most famous I can think of.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Weston said:


> I love odd times in classical too of course, but I have to say it can be overused to the point of murkiness. That is a problem I have with Boulez. When his piano sonatas have every measure a different time signature, 13/8: 3/4: 11/4: 7/8x2, etc., what is there for the listener to latch onto? Or the performer?


When Boulez extensively uses "irrational" rhythms, such as 5:4 (five notes played in the space of 4), what it amounts to is "speed-ups" and "slow-downs" of certain figures; so he is notating tempo fluctuations.

There are "tricks" one can use to play these figures more easily. The above example, 5 against 4, can be played by tapping your foot in 4/4, and on each beat saying the word "opportunity."

So it sounds like this: "op-por-tu-ni-ty, op-por-tu-ni-ty, op-por-tu-ni-ty, op-por-tu-ni-ty."


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Weston said:


> I love odd times in classical too of course, but I have to say it can be overused to the point of murkiness. That is a problem I have with Boulez. When his piano sonatas have every measure a different time signature, 13/8: 3/4: 11/4: 7/8x2, etc., what is there for the listener to latch onto? Or the performer? Speech has a more regular rhythm than that. It may was well not have a time signature and be free form. Or in other words if every measure is a surprise then really none of them are.


The way shifting time is used in classical music is inherently related to the way classical music is written as opposed to rock. In rock, it's normal to keep a steady, unchanging pulse, so changing time signatures take that pulse and either a) add/subtract beats or b) speed it up/slow it down temporarily (thus inserting or removing a half beat). In classical music, the rhythm is created by the melodic shape more than anything. In other words, the motif/melody, if not defines, at least _implies_ its own rhythm, which can possibly be contradicted by the accompaniment/other parts. The angular rhythms used in 20th century music by Stravinsky, Messiaen, and Boulez are partially a function of the melodies/motifs that they grow out of. Have you ever seen a Schoenberg score? They're almost invariably written in normal time signatures like 4/4 and 3/4, with perhaps the odd bar in a different time once in a while. Try counting the Dance Around the Golden Calf in 4/4, though, and you'll get lost almost immediately, because the accents are _not_ in 4/4, and they're changing practically every bar. What composers like Messiaen did is notate these types of things the way they're actually heard.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> When Boulez extensively uses "irrational" rhythms, such as 5:4 (five notes played in the space of 4), what it amounts to is "speed-ups" and "slow-downs" of certain figures; so he is notating tempo fluctuations.
> 
> There are "tricks" one can use to play these figures more easily. The above example, 5 against 4, can be played by tapping your foot in 4/4, and on each beat saying the word "opportunity."
> 
> So it sounds like this: "op-por-tu-ni-ty, op-por-tu-ni-ty, op-por-tu-ni-ty, op-por-tu-ni-ty."


Perhaps you could furnish me with some words to help decipher this. 10 bonus points if you can name the composer.









Just teasing :lol:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> Perhaps you could furnish me with some words to help decipher this. 10 bonus points if you can name the composer.
> 
> View attachment 12536
> 
> ...


Let's see: su-per-cal-i-fra-gil-is-tic-ex-pe-al-a-do-cious....


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