# Beethoven/Mozart: A Dichotomy



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Beethoven shows the everlasting truth of life on Earth where Mozart shows the everlasting truth of heaven (if one exists).

Discuss


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Okay. 

Shaw once wrote that Mozart wrote the only music that would not sound out of place coming out of the mouth of God.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

It's a conversation starter, agree or disagree.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I don't have any problem with your (or Shaw's) characterization of Mozart, but one characterizes Beethoven at his own risk. I personally believe that (late) Beethoven addressed the ineffable more fearlessly than any other artist who ever lived.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MarkW said:


> I don't have any problem with your (or Shaw's) characterization of Mozart, but one characterizes Beethoven at his own risk. I personally believe that (late) Beethoven addressed the ineffable more fearlessly than any other artist who ever lived.


Interesting. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, could you give some examples of works that do this for you?


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Interesting. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, could you give some examples of works that do this for you?


While I am not MarkW, I'll answer:
Op 109
Op 110/3
Op 123
Op 127
Op 130
Op 131
Op 132
Op 133
Op 135


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm giving op 109 a listen now. I still find him very very in touch with the highs and lows of human emotion.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Beethoven shows the everlasting truth of life on Earth where Mozart shows the everlasting truth of heaven (if one exists).
> 
> Discuss


A clever idea, but difficult to discuss without veering into the meaning of 'heaven', and the risk that poses. As far as my response to their music goes, I get closer to "heaven" listening to Beethoven than to Mozart.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If we can define heaven as an imagined place where everything is beautiful and perfect, then I suppose Mozart spent as much time there as anyone. Fortunately he didn't spend all his time there. As for Beethoven, he had other travel plans, and so do I.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Forster said:


> A clever idea, but difficult to discuss without veering into the meaning of 'heaven', and the risk that poses. As far as my response to their music goes, I get closer to "heaven" listening to Beethoven than to Mozart.


Do you find Mozart more forgettable compared to Beethoven? I could see that, Mozart blends together from work to work, where Beethoven took time with each piece i feel.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> If we can define heaven as an imagined place where everything is beautiful and perfect, then I suppose Mozart spent as much time there as anyone. Fortunately he didn't spend all his time there. As for Beethoven, he had other travel plans, and so do I.


There is the Requiem afteral.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Do you find Mozart more forgettable compared to Beethoven? I could see that, Mozart blends together from work to work, where Beethoven took time with each piece i feel.


Well, no, I wouldn't say forgettable - I can hum one or two of his tunes if I put my mind to it. It's just that I find Beethoven more to my taste. Everything I said in another thread about his 9th Symphony holds true, to some extent, for all his symphonies, and for not much of Mozart.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I not a fan on such pseudo-deep one-liners and people 100-150 years ago did most of them already wrt famous artists...

But Mozart is more "earthly" overall (which is neither better or worse per se). Just look at the operas. Mozart's are mostly about screwing someone (or three) behind a spouse's back, whereas Beethoven has probably the most idealized sexless couple in the history of opera. And it's similar in most instrumental music. The great slow Mozart movements remind one often of scenes in opera whereas already early/middle Beethoven has some "otherworldly" ones.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Kreisler jr said:


> I not a fan on such pseudo-deep one-liners and people 100-150 years ago did most of them already wrt famous artists...


Then why participate in the discussion? It's meant as a blanket statement to be picked apart and refuted from all angles, depending on your opinoin.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

To me Mozart’s compositions def. have a happy ending “heavenish” feel to them.
Beethoven works take the longer route, the battle, and hardship but stop at happy on earth.
So in a way, Mozart music says there is happines in heaven, and Beethoven says if you fight for it you can see happiness on earth too.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

It would perhaps be more interesting to break down individual works and see if they leave us feeling heavenly or earth bound and then arrive at an agreement on who fits which category best.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

But I can say, my time with both composers and the way each sounds leaves me feeling the statement in the OP.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

I believe it was George Solti said in his autobiography that although he was not religious, whenever he listened to Mozart, he realised there must be a God.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

ORigel said:


> While I am not MarkW, I'll answer:
> Op 109
> Op 110/3
> Op 123
> ...


That's a good list. Add Missa Solemnis, the slow movement of Opus 106, and Opus 111. For me, the striving for the other-worldly in the arietta of Op. 111 is unmatched by any other work of art.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

MarkW said:


> I don't have any problem with your (or Shaw's) characterization of Mozart, but one characterizes Beethoven at his own risk. I personally believe that (late) Beethoven addressed the ineffable more fearlessly than any other artist who ever lived.


Yes but you could say the Bach Chaconne for solo violin might even do it better? Just depends on what mood you might be in at the time


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Instead of starting a new thread, I thought I'd add a thought I just had in this thread.

I think I find Beethoven to have greater emotional depth when compared to Mozart. Not to say this is better, Mozart's music seems more stable.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I usually equate Bach with religion and Mozart with humanity. I just look at *Le Nozze Di Figaro* or *Cosi Fan Tutte* and am convinced of Mozart's wonderful grasp of the virtues and vices of the human condition. Beethoven, for me, represents the struggle of the individual with himself and against the collective, whereas Mozart's music demonstrates an understanding of the collective.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Olias said:


> I usually equate Bach with religion and Mozart with humanity. I just look at *Le Nozze Di Figaro* or *Cosi Fan Tutte* and am convinced of Mozart's wonderful grasp of the virtues and vices of the human condition. Beethoven, for me, represents the struggle of the individual with himself and against the collective, whereas Mozart's music demonstrates an understanding of the collective.


I think Mozart's melodies and supportive structures to those melodies represent a deeply spiritual nature while Beethoven's as you said, are reminiscent of inner turmoil and struggle.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think Mozart's melodies and supportive structures to those melodies represent a deeply spiritual nature while Beethoven's as you said, are reminiscent of inner turmoil and struggle.


what is - "a deeply spiritual nature" ???


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

PlaySalieri said:


> what is - "a deeply spiritual nature" ???


ummmm...."enlightened"? Always in the light. Even his requiem, while showing darkness, has all the refinement of an individual who knows how to cope well.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Olias said:


> I usually equate Bach with religion and Mozart with humanity. * I just look at Le Nozze Di Figaro or Cosi Fan Tutte and am convinced of Mozart's wonderful grasp of the virtues and vices of the human condition.* Beethoven, for me, represents the struggle of the individual with himself and against the collective, whereas Mozart's music demonstrates an understanding of the collective.


Could that not be to some degree a result of Da Ponte's libretti?


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

If you want truth on earth or heaven go outside and look at the trees and sky.

If you want art go to Beethoven and Mozart.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Malx said:


> Could that not be to some degree a result of Da Ponte's libretti?


It is.

"I would say that in an opera the poetry must be altogether the obedient daughter of the music. Why are Italian comic operas popular everywhere - in spite of the miserable libretti? … Because the music reigns supreme, and when one listens to it all else is forgotten. An opera is sure of success when the plot is well worked out, the words written solely for the music and not shoved in here and there to suit some miserable rhyme ... The best thing of all is when a good composer, who understands the stage and is talented enough to make sound suggestions, meets an able poet, that true phoenix; in that case, no fears need be entertained as to the applause - even of the ignorant."
-Mozart, in letter to his father, October 13, 1781


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

larold said:


> If you want truth on earth or heaven go outside and look at the trees and sky.
> 
> If you want art go to Beethoven and Mozart.


A film critic I read is not fond of the idea of "truth" as an artistic ideal - he was fond of saying "just because something's true doesn't make it interesting".

This is more obvious in narrative or programatic art but the fakeness of it is part of the whole appeal.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Beethoven shows the everlasting truth of life on Earth where Mozart shows the everlasting truth of heaven (if one exists).
> 
> Discuss


Eh? That's a level of philosophizing that's way beyond my tiny mind. 
However, I would say that Mozart showed what could be done with a rather narrow palate of tonal colour and form, whereas Beethoven showed what could be done if you throw everything at the canvas.
And no, I will not be entering any further discussion on this point, which is entirely mine and wholly subjective!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Beethoven shows the everlasting truth of life on Earth where Mozart shows the everlasting truth of heaven (if one exists).
> 
> Discuss


I suspect the Symphony No. 6 tells us something about the "truth of life on Earth", but whether or not that life is "everlasting" remains prime for debate. Or, is it the "_truth_ of life on Earth" that is the "everlasting" thing: that such life is _not_ everlasting, along with everything else in the universe, including, quite possibly, the universe itself.

That Mozart shows "the everlasting truth of heaven (if one exists)" proves perplexing at best. If heaven _doesn't_ exist, such a truth is untrue. And if heaven does indeed exist, and Mozart is its musical proponent, what about J.S. Bach? I tend to think Bach represents a God-like voice, even in his secular music, and that is a somewhat different voice from Mozart's. Then again, Penderecki wrote "religious" centered music; what does that say about the perfection of Heaven? That perfection allows for a lot of variety and styles? It's all rather complex.

I playfully hold that Bruckner caught glimpses of the heavens and they appear now and then when the clouds clear in his searing symphonies. Mahler, on the other hand, strikes me as one who creates his own heavenly vision, and a good one it seems to be.

So, do artists _reflect_ truths of Earth and Heaven, or do they _create_ them? Or is it the audience of the artists' works that does the actual sorting out of reflection and creation. I suppose there are those who do not hear anything Heavenly in Bruckner (or Mozart, or Mahler), but then, how can any of us truly know what is heavenly or not having never _been_ there.

The physicists rather inartistically suggest to me that nothing proves everlasting, and I tend to believe their calculations, though I deeply prefer the numinous vagueness, subjectiveness, and abstraction of art. We honor our artists for their apparent perspicacity, yet there is no real proof that their insight means anything at all outside of our own subjective viewpoint. Still, when one is standing on the brink staring into the void, the music of Beethoven and Mozart, as well as the works of other artists, can seem quite welcoming.

Perhaps _illusion_ is the real truth of life on Earth (as well as life in Heaven). But could we do without it and live by accepting only the proveable facts? Call me a dreamer if you will, but leave me out of that latter prospect of living. I might not embrace religious convictions with very much relish, but I certainly do embrace those of art's aesthetics, however illusory they be.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Captainnumber36 said:


> ummmm...."*enlightened"? Always in the light.* Even his requiem, while showing darkness, has all the refinement of an individual who knows how to cope well.


Sad to say - neither do I know what you mean by enlightened - always in the light. You mean he never goes into a dark room? Or what? What do you mean? You have gone from one esoteric label to another. Please be a bit more specific.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I don't really hear much spirituality in my favorite composer Mozart. Sounds pretty earthy and primal to me.

For spiritual, maybe R Strauss or Tchaikovsky.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

I like both composers, after all, what’s not to like? But I do gravitate more towards Beethoven.


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## GMB (10 mo ago)

I've always thought Mozart compares and contrasts with Haydn rather then Beethoven. He stands alone like a colossus or a mountain.He is best appreciated as such. I prefer Mozart however, for his musical range: Piano Sonatas onwards, and for his range of mood: happy, sad, light-hearted, serious, religious, daft as a brush etc. He covers the range of human emotion, in which case he has been compared to Shakespeare.


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