# A suggestion for others who like classical music "except opera"



## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I have used the search function and I see that this has been discussed a few times before, but I'm excited about this so my first post shall be about it anyway! I am also posting it in this section instead of the opera section in the hopes that people who are not fans of opera will read it.

About a year ago I started listening to classical music and, after a rough adjustment period at the beginning, I came to love lots and lots of pieces from every era and in almost every genre. I say almost because, like some of you, I found myself unable to connect with opera beyond a few select arias and had begrudgingly accepted that my immersion in the medium would probably end at the overtures.

Then I found the Chandos Opera in English on Spotify (for free by the way; maybe that goes without saying but I knew nothing about Spotify until a few weeks ago). Big reveal for something you all know about already I know I know, but I also know that I ran through huge chunks of their translations of Don Giovanni, Marriage of Figaro, and The Magic Flute in one weekend because I found it so captivating to perceive the flow of the words and their literal meanings simultaneously. 

The first minute of Figaro convinced me that I had always been a huge fan of opera and never realized it, and I don't think that was a premature assessment because I have already listened to my purchased copy so much that every time I hear Mozart's piano concertos I feel a bit disappointed by the absence of singing. It's strange to type that because a few months ago I was lamenting that there are no instrumentals of Mozart's operas like the Wagner Without Words suites.

I believe there is a specific kind of pleasure that comes with hearing the words of your native language set to music, and that the flow of not just the words but of the meaning (literal not emotional by way of the singing) through those words is itself "musical" in a sense, and I think that in offering that specific experience to me these translations more than make up for what they do lose in the way of things like alliteration and fluency. I will not likely abandon "Sull'Aria" for "The Breezes" (blegh), because that aria always worked for me anyway, but more wordy pieces like Non Piu Adrai or segments that involve a lot of hijinks and plot development really impact me more when my comprehension is full and immediate. 

Now I know that a lot of good things are lost in translation and even that a lot of bad things are acquired in translation, but I think they could at least serve the function of an entry point. There are many arias that I loved before ever finding these and I will never abandon them for the translated versions, but I will also never abandon these new versions because I love, love, love having words that I can actually sing along to, even if only mentally, and there are many things from these same operas that I did not love before that I do love now only because the translated version acted as an ambassador. 

This is an important note because I am not advocating that anyone never listen to the original versions! Quite the opposite actually. I am just saying that these versions offer something different and are a much more fun method of familiarization compared to reading summaries and line by line libretto translations.

This is all to say that I plan on having in my phone both the original language version and english language version of every scene I like, because I acknowledge that both have their advantages. Hopefully some of you will do the same! 

All these years I have wondered how exactly it is that I can enjoy an artist like Bob Dylan or even a Disney song in which the singer is not even a singer but just the voice actor dragging out the vowels, and then turn around and say that I don't like opera because their voices sound weird and don't mesh with the music. Well I think I've finally found a way to break down that barrier. I know there is a sentiment out there that it's better to not understand what is being said because it adds an air of mystery and because it can all sound a bit silly because no one talks like that, but I don't know. 

That's always seemed a bit silly to me, to be a stickler about accuracy and hearing what was intended and then reject completely the notion that the words of an opera were intended to be understood. If you feel that way I genuinely believe you will get over it if you just keep listening!

Alright the sermon is over. Hopefully some of you will try this and have the same revelation that I did! EDIT: Good god that ended up being a lot longer than I intended. TL;DR go try the Chandos Opera in English for free on Spotify! And no I don't work for Spotify! EDIT 2: And you can find the full text in pdf for these translations on the Chandos website. Hopefully no more edits will be necessary because I'm sounding more and more like a salesman every sentence.


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

Well, I don't know whether or not you're a salesman, OP, but I checked out Spotify after reading this post and downloaded it. And I am now enjoying listening to a piece I'd never heard before, the very first published work, the Rondo in C, by a very young Chopin. 
So thanks for that. I'd heard of Spotify but assumed it wasn't a free service. Duh!
Oh, and welcome to Talk Classical. :tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

What's the big deal if folks like classical music but not opera? Everybody's different and should simply be comfortable listening to the music they like.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

hpowders said:


> What's the big deal if folks like classical music but not opera? Everybody's different and should simply be comfortable listening to the music they like.


Of course they should! And I think it goes without saying that we all like having even more music to like, so why not suggest something that might expand someone's interest?

I don't necessarily think it is a big deal, but I do think a person's musical taste is a more flexible thing than we give it credit for.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> All these years I have wondered how exactly it is that I can enjoy an artist like Bob Dylan or even a Disney song in which the singer is not even a singer but just the voice actor dragging out the vowels, and then turn around and say that I don't like opera because their voices sound weird and don't mesh with the music. Well I think I've finally found a way to break down that barrier. *I know there is a sentiment out there that it's better to not understand what is being said because it adds an air of mystery and because it can all sound a bit silly because no one talks like that, but I don't know. *
> 
> That's always seemed a bit silly to me, to be a stickler about accuracy and hearing what was intended and then reject completely the notion that the words of an opera were intended to be understood. If you feel that way I genuinely believe you will get over it if you just keep listening!


Does that sentiment really exist? "Air of mystery"? I think most people either follow along with the translated libretto or watch a DVD with subtitles (or, of course, go in person).

I rent DVDs from Netflix and watch them subtitled. No doubt the subtitles aren't perfect, but no translation is.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> Does that sentiment really exist? "Air of mystery"? I think most people either follow along with the translated libretto or watch a DVD with subtitles (or, of course, go in person).
> 
> I rent DVDs from Netflix and watch them subtitled. No doubt the subtitles aren't perfect, but no translation is.


I suppose air of mystery is the wrong phrase to use. On a few occasions I've read people say that they don't like to hear opera in english even if it was originally written in english because it sounds strange, and that in listening to a translation or even learning what the original words mean you risk realizing that the content wasn't quite as poignant as the music made it sound. I don't personally believe either of those things; I was just trying to encourage anyone who did to press on and keep trying.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

GreenMamba said:


> Does that sentiment really exist? "Air of mystery"? I think most people either follow along with the translated libretto or watch a DVD with subtitles (or, of course, go in person).
> 
> I rent DVDs from Netflix and watch them subtitled. No doubt the subtitles aren't perfect, but no translation is.


I don't need an air of mystery, but neither do I personally often sit down with libretto. I did enjoy the Met Live in HD and would like to see live opera soon, but I can rarely find the uninterrupted time to read libretto. I'm usually listening while driving or doing something with my kiddos. If there is an opera I adore SO MUCH and want to know everything about it, then yeah I will. Or conversely intruiged by the plot idea or generally like the composer but the music alone isn't quite selling me.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Where is this Chandos Opera in English? I typed the words in the search box and nothing came up.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

For myself, it's always opera in the original language. That's part of the reward of watching/listening to opera, so I avoid stuff like the Chandos Opera in English series.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I've never quite grasped the idea of sitting down to listen to an opera. That's a little like experiencing a movie with sound only. But to each his own. 

I am in the "English sounds weird" camp myself after hearing some art songs in English, but I suppose it depends on the composer. Handel sounds fine in English to me, but for some reason Britten does not.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> I think most people either follow along with the translated libretto or watch a DVD with subtitles (or, of course, go in person).


I must be in the minority, then. Because I have only followed along with libretto for a tiny handful of operas. I typically read the synopsis so I know vaguely what story the music depicts, but other than that, I just listen.

I will admit that I want to start following with libretto more often...but it's not terribly practical when you're a music listener who drives to music, posts on TC to music, lays in the dark to music, etc.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

hpowders said:


> What's the big deal if folks like classical music but not opera? Everybody's different and should simply be comfortable listening to the music they like.


Meh... some folk really are more comfortable with 'sung in their own language,' which makes it easier for them to connect with those sung stage works. I'm not one of them -- my druthers being _always_ listen to vocal works in their original language -- but, as more than one music teacher of mine has said, "Whatever works." -- so I'm relatively amoral as to whatever it takes to bring people in to classical music


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

Manxfeeder said:


> Where is this Chandos Opera in English? I typed the words in the search box and nothing came up.


For some reason it only works if you type in the name of the specific opera you are looking for and then after that add "in english." Using the name Chandos throws it off.

You'd have to search "Marriage of Figaro in english." You can also simply search the phrase "opera in english" and some of their stuff will pop up. Again on the website there is a list of every opera they've done.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> I must be in the minority, then. Because I have only followed along with libretto for a tiny handful of operas. I typically read the synopsis so I know vaguely what story the music depicts, but other than that, I just listen.
> 
> I will admit that I want to start following with libretto more often...but it's not terribly practical when you're a music listener who drives to music, posts on TC to music, lays in the dark to music, etc.


An acquaintance of mine put it quite well, "The music has to tell me enough of what is going on, dramatically or of the general emotions; if it doesn't, knowing the text more specifically won't help or improve the music."

I 'ride' vocal music this way, having, oddly, developed some sense of not even paying attention to the words for the first several listens even if the text is in my native language or another I understand enough of. Only then will I look more specifically into the text, often finding it then 'appropriate' because the music conveyed the more general tenor and gist to me first. More than a few times, what the composer chose to set and how the composer has set it has added an additional appreciation, at least of the composers' craft, and more rarely, has added more 'depth of meaning' to the vocal work.

But many do feel at a loss, at sea, in the dark, without that literal program, the full libretto, available in hand -- at least initially -- and since I am not them and they need that for access, so be it -- for them.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Weston said:


> I've never quite grasped the idea of sitting down to listen to an opera. That's a little like experiencing a movie with sound only. But to each his own.
> 
> I am in the "English sounds weird" camp myself after hearing some art songs in English, but I suppose it depends on the composer. Handel sounds fine in English to me, but for some reason Britten does not.


In general, I get why you'd feel that. But for me music has come before other art forms and I learned I loved the operatic vocals when I heard them in symphonic metal. and found the best way to get more of them was by actually listening to opera....initially highlights albums or recitals . But the problem with highlight albums I realized was sometimes there would be a piece that I would consider a highlight that maybe the producer DIDN'T. I couldn't miss a potentially great piece of music! :lol:


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Weston said:


> I've never quite grasped the idea of sitting down to listen to an opera. That's a little like experiencing a movie with sound only. But to each his own.


This is pretty much how I also felt: an opera is not just music, it is also a show. And seeing as I couldn't stand the music, I thought that maybe if I saw the show I'd enjoy it more. But alas, when I try to watch videos of operas, I seldom last more than 15 minutes before I simply cannot stand it any longer. Conclusion: opera is for the most part not my thing.

One weird exception was "Nixon in China." Somehow the bits that I saw on YouTube resonated with me. But I haven't watched the entire thing and can't speak for all of it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

My preference is to watch a DVD of the opera in the original language and use the English subtitles for understanding. I also read the libretto for the full text. I have Fidelio down now so that when I listen on CD I can visualize the scenes. I did get the Chandos Opera in English Series Fidelio and it was pretty good, but not something I listen to very often.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

brianvds said:


> This is pretty much how I also felt: an opera is not just music, it is also a show. And seeing as I couldn't stand the music, I thought that maybe if I saw the show I'd enjoy it more. But alas, when I try to watch videos of operas, I seldom last more than 15 minutes before I simply cannot stand it any longer. Conclusion: opera is for the most part not my thing.
> 
> One weird exception was "Nixon in China." Somehow the bits that I saw on YouTube resonated with me. But I haven't watched the entire thing and can't speak for all of it.


I'd be interested to know a few of the operas you tried.

I love The Marriage of Figaro, and yet I would never in a million years want to watch a full performance of it because, while it probably takes 2 or 3 hours to watch the whole thing, I could probably listen to everything in it that I like in only 45 minutes. And I learned to like those 45 minutes by isolating all of the music from the recitatives and listening to them as I would to a song cycle, and then realizing that I liked pretty much all of it and loved most of it.

It helped to have seen a full performance because I had images to put to the music, but now that I have done that once I feel no need to ever do it again. Going through my list here, in the first 20 minutes of Figaro there seem to be around 6 minutes of talking that I don't care about and never listen to, and at least two arias that I had to hear several times before their melodies clicked with me. No wonder I was bored to tears the first time I tried. For one my attention was split between trying to hear the music and reading the subtitles and actions of the actors, and secondly I was trying to decide if I liked a piece of classical music on my first listen which is not a standard I hold any other type of music to ever.

I think most of us can agree that if we really love even 40 percent of a piece we will probably just say that we love the piece if asked for our opinion, and even that 40 percent might have taken several listens to achieve. Perhaps what little exposure you had to the operas you tried just happened to be the parts you don't like and you don't even realize that, interspersed with the parts that don't work for you, there are hidden treasures that you would love if you just found them!


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

brianvds said:


> This is pretty much how I also felt: an opera is not just music, it is also a show. And seeing as I couldn't stand the music, I thought that maybe if I saw the show I'd enjoy it more. But alas, when I try to watch videos of operas, I seldom last more than 15 minutes before I simply cannot stand it any longer. Conclusion: opera is for the most part not my thing.
> 
> One weird exception was "Nixon in China." Somehow the bits that I saw on YouTube resonated with me. But I haven't watched the entire thing and can't speak for all of it.


That's not a weird exception at all! Instructive example of when people don't find the canonical classics interesting maybe they'll enjoy something a bit different. Unfortunately, such observations are lost on the opera house programmers!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I'd be interested to know a few of the operas you tried.


A selection from all the highlights of five centuries of opera. Couldn't really stomach any of it. But I think the reason why I dislike it is the opposite of what people usually complain about, namely that opera stories tend to be unrealistic. For me the problem is that they are TOO realistic: I prefer abstract music.



> I love The Marriage of Figaro, and yet I would never in a million years want to watch a full performance of it because, while it probably takes 2 or 3 hours to watch the whole thing, I could probably listen to everything in it that I like in only 45 minutes. And I learned to like those 45 minutes by isolating all of the music from the recitatives and listening to them as I would to a song cycle, and then realizing that I liked pretty much all of it and loved most of it.


And indeed, at least some of the songs are nice enough. I am very fond of the "Song to the Moon" from Dvorak's Russalka. But those endless recitatives are enough to get even opera lovers down. Wagner eliminated them, so in principle I should enjoy his operas. Alas, can't stand them, but it is perhaps more of anti-Wagner thing than an anti-opera thing.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I tried a few bits of Wagner myself and found it too talky for my liking, but I know I'm mostly daunted by the length of everything. I will definitely keep trying because every overture and "best of" type selection I've heard is amazing.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Weston said:


> I've never quite grasped the idea of sitting down to listen to an opera. That's a little like experiencing a movie with sound only. But to each his own.


Not really, unless the film is of an opera, music in film is most often underscoring; when it comes to the fore, it is usually under a very visual scene, no dialogue, where the music is required to take over and drive that scene.

In sharp contrast, the visual of opera can be a treat, maybe help slightly in keeping track of which character is singing, but overall, the music and the vocals are a good 90% of the actual content that 'drive the show.'


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> For some reason it only works if you type in the name of the specific opera you are looking for and then after that add "in english." Using the name Chandos throws it off.


Oh, there it is. Wow, Wozzeck is in English. Cool!


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## OldFashionedGirl (Jul 21, 2013)

Tie your brother in a chair, and make him watch the Ring of the Nibelung complete.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OldFashionedGirl said:


> Tie your brother in a chair, and make him watch the Ring of the Nibelung complete.


I thought you were nice!!! :lol::lol:


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