# First Round: Sleepwalking Scene Macbeth. Varnay and Dimitrova



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

This is a very different aria from our first Lady Macbeth aria. I have chosen 5 divas who were all critically acclaimed for this very difficult role: Nilsson, Ludwig, Dimitrova , Varnay and the winners of these will compete against Maria. The first two I am putting together as they are among the very few sopranos who successfully performed Amneris ( Verrett and Bumbry were known as mezzos already).


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I think both are really wonderful. Many of you are much better at discerning interpretation but to me Varnay IS Lady Macbeth and her mature sounding voice adds to the character. She absolutely RULES when she sings the lowest passage in this aria as she does so with more terrifying power than any of her competitors, even Callas ( at least in this version).


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I think both are really wonderful. Many of you are much better at discerning interpretation but to me Varnay IS Lady Macbeth and her mature sounding voice adds to the character. She absolutely RULES when she sings the lowest passage in this aria as she does so with more terrifying power than any of her competitors, even Callas ( at least in this version). Dimitrova does a great C# which Varnay doesn't attempt, but likely Nilsson is the only Wagnerian soprano who could hit that note that I know of.


Varnay does sing the D flat from what I hear.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Well, Verdi did ask for an ugly-sounding Lady Macbeth, didn't he? In the dark, heavy, squeezy, swoopy, scoopy Astrid Varnay his fond nightmare may have come true. Her torch-singer habit of attacking notes from below with straight tone, applying a loose, irregular vibrato gradually as if she's letting a deadly cobra crawl out of a basket, is pretty unsettling. Maybe the constricted high notes don't sound evil as much as simply bad, but OK, Lady M is out of her mind and people in her condition probably don't sing well as a rule. She _does_ get that Db, bless her black heart! I find some of her interpretive ideas fine and others a bit imprecise, perhaps undermined by vocal limitations, but in sum this is a grand guignol sort of performance that for all I know Verdi might like. I kinda like it too, as long as I don't make the inevitable comparison I can't help making but won't so much as mention here.

Dimitrova is unfortunately far from the mic through most of this, so that the most conspicuous thing about her performance is her heavy vibrato. I find her presentation apt though not remarkable, but my goodness, she manages some wondrous high pianissimi that may explain why some audience members kept trying to applaud and others kept shushing them.

Varnay is by far the more characterful singer, for good or ill - which in lady M's case may be the same thing - and I'll award her the prize for adding another role to the short list of parts in which I can actually stand to listen to her.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Well, Verdi did ask for an ugly-sounding Lady Macbeth, didn't he? In the dark, heavy, squeezy, swoopy, scoopy Astrid Varnay his fond nightmare may have come true. Her torch-singer habit of attacking notes from below with straight tone, applying a loose, irregular vibrato gradually as if she's letting a deadly cobra crawl out of a basket, sounds quite evil. Maybe the constricted high notes don't sound evil as much as simply bad, but OK, Lady M is out of her mind and people in her condition probably don't sing well as a rule. She _does_ get that Db, bless her black heart! I find some of her interpretive ideas fine and others a bit imprecise, perhaps undermined by vocal limitations, but in sum this is a grand guignol sort of performance that for all I know Verdi might like. I kinda like it too, as long as I don't make the inevitable comparison I can't help making but won't so much as mention here.
> 
> Dimitrova is unfortunately far from the mic through most of this, so that the most conspicuous thing about her performance is her heavy vibrato. I find her presentation apt though not remarkable, but my goodness, she manages some wondrous high pianissimi that may explain why some audience members kept trying to applaud and others kept shushing them.
> 
> Varnay is by far the more characterful singer, for good or ill - which in lady M's case may be the same thing - and I'll award her the prize for adding another role to the short list of parts in which I can actually stand to listen to her.


I love the sound of Varnay's voice BUT I am from Seattle and we like things the rest of you don't 🤣 I love singers who have a very individual sound and Varnay certainly had THAT in spades. The fact that Woodduck said something positive about Varnay lends credence to the saying that you can be always surprised in life although his description of what her voice sounds like would not be what the Baptist church would call charitable The list of singers who are good at this role are actually few and of course some will be better at some elements than others. It is a murderous part.... so to speak.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I love the sound of Varnay's voice BUT I am from Seattle and we like things the rest of you don't 🤣 I love singers who have a very individual sound and Varnay certainly had THAT in spades.


"The sound of a singer's voice" is a broad concept that includes different things. Can you imagine a singer with Varnay's vocal timbre who doesn't scoop into notes or attack them with straight tone, has a quick, even vibrato, and has a free, open upper register? I can, but then I'm not from Seattle.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> "The sound of a singer's voice" is a broad concept that includes different things. Can you imagine a singer with Varnay's vocal timbre who doesn't scoop into notes or attack them with straight tone, has a quick, even vibrato, and has a free, open upper register? I can, but then I'm not from Seattle.


Enough!!!! 🤪 Basta!... as Sofia on Golden Girls would say.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck is being too kind to Varnay in his comments above. She in unlistenable to me. I much prefer Dimitrova who sounds less wayward with notes, rhythms, intonation. Verdi’s oft quoted preferences for the role of the Lady is used as a excuse for all sorts of things done by inadequate singing in this part, including exaggerations like Varnay’s. 
There’s a clearer live recording of Dimitrova on YouTube.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> Woodduck is being too kind to Varnay in his comments above. She in unlistenable to me. I much prefer Dimitrova who sounds less wayward with notes, rhythms, intonation. Verdi’s oft quoted preferences for the role of the Lady is used as a excuse for all sorts of things done by inadequate singing in this part, including exaggerations like Varnay’s.
> There’s a clearer live recording of Dimitrova on YouTube.


Note that I didn't say I was eager to hear Varnay sing the rest of the opera.  It might be interesting, though.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Woodduck is being too kind to Varnay in his comments above. She in unlistenable to me. I much prefer Dimitrova who sounds less wayward with notes, rhythms, intonation. Verdi’s oft quoted preferences for the role of the Lady is used as a excuse for all sorts of things done by inadequate singing in this part, including exaggerations like Varnay’s.
> There’s a clearer live recording of Dimitrova on YouTube.


I found another one I hope is better. I can't listen to opera loud in my apt as my 85 year old neighbor has ears like a 6 year old and I'm too lazy to unplug my headphones from my turntable. Sorry, but it gets tedious going through 5 different versions of the same aria by the same singer sometimes. There was no record label released version on this like Shaughnessy showed me to look for. This is the last time I will ever have my beloved Varnay in a contest. There are lots of Varnay fans but not in our circle quite obviously. Same for Dimitrova.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Note that I didn't say I was eager to hear Varnay sing the rest of the opera.  It might be interesting, though.


To me she was great in the first aria we heard but wisely I thought that once was enough. Even in this aria no one noticed her spectacular chest notes pronouncement. More of my eccentricities I guess. My friend Ellen had me play that section 3 times in our last joy ride. At least I have one friend who shares my bad taste


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If you find Varnay "odd" you might try Martha Modl singing(?) it in German. By the end you'll be ready for a relaxing cream sherry and _Pierrot Lunaire._


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> If you find Varnay "odd" you might try Martha Modl singing(?) it in German. By the end you'll be ready for a relaxing cream sherry and _Pierrot Lunaire._


As Sofia said "Basta"


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> As Sofia said "Basta"


As in "please basta the turkey" or "you lousy basta"?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> As in "please basta the turkey" or "you lousy basta"?


Funny! I thinka ita meansa "stoppa". If you continue it means the latter option


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Funny! I thinka ita meansa "stoppa". If you continue it means the latter option


Sticksa anda stonesa...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Well... I can't say I like either, to be honest. Neither of them give me much sense of someone sleepwalking and I don't think either of them really pay heed to Verdi's copious markings. Incidentally Varnay does sing the Db, though she slightly alters Verdi's written ending, Dimitrova doesn't.

When it comes to this aria, I really can't get the sound of you-know-who out of my head (It doesn't seem that long ago that we were comparing her 1952 and 1958 performances) and both these performances are wanting in any air of mystery.

I'll give my vote to Dimitrova as I find her slightly easier to listen to, but really I'd say neither of the above.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well... I can't say I like either, to be honest. Neither of them give me much sense of someone sleepwalking and I don't think either of them really pay heed to Verdi's copious markings. Incidentally Varnay does sing the Db, though she slightly alters Verdi's written ending, Dimitrova doesn't.
> 
> When it comes to this aria, I really can't get the sound of you-know-who out of my head (It doesn't seem that long ago that we were comparing her 1951 and 1958 performances) and both these performances are wanting in any air of mystery.
> 
> I'll give my vote to Dimitrova as I find her slightly easier to listen to, but really I'd say neither of the above.


You will likely hate the next ones as well LOL. After that you get HER.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> You will likely hate the next ones as well LOL. After that you get HER.


*HER!* 
Is this a dagger which I see before me? Out, out damned critics!


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> If you find Varnay "odd" you might try Martha Modl singing(?) it in German. By the end you'll be ready for a relaxing cream sherry and _Pierrot Lunaire._


I have this entire performance of Macbeth on CD. It can be exciting, but perhaps too expressionistic for many. She sings it in the German tradition of dramatic mezzos singing it. Elisabeth Hongen with a much smoother voice recorded it to in German and she makes alterations to avoid high Cs and both duck the high D flat in the Sleepwalking Scene.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

This was a tough one for me. I liked them both but one's voice had more heft(Dimitrova) than the other(Varnay) whose voice was cleaner and I guess I wwent for the heft, but it was painfully close for me.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I found another one I hope is better. I can't listen to opera loud in my apt as my 85 year old neighbor has ears like a 6 year old and I'm too lazy to unplug my headphones from my turntable. Sorry, but it gets tedious going through 5 different versions of the same aria by the same singer sometimes. There was no record label released version on this like Shaughnessy showed me to look for. This is the last time I will ever have my beloved Varnay in a contest. There are lots of Varnay fans but not in our circle quite obviously. Same for Dimitrova.


Varnay is one of my favorites.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

I'm giving this one to Dimitrova. It strikes me as close to an ideal Lady Macbeth voice. Also, Dimitrova had enough flexibility to cope with other parts of the score. But - she ducks the high d flat at the end.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Varnay for me... I've read through all of the comments, listened to them both twice, and whatever it is that the others are hearing in Dimitrova is completely escaping me.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Francasacchi said:


> Varnay is one of my favorites.


I've looked up your name on Facebook to make you one of my friends


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> Varnay for me... I've read through all of the comments, listened to them both twice, and whatever it is that the others are hearing in Dimitrova is completely escaping me.


To be fair, I didn't hear much and did say so. I just slightly preferred her rendition to Varnay's, but in all honesty I didn't like either.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

In 2004, a documentary about Astrid Varnay's life and first New York career entitled _Never Before_ received acclaim in the USA.



Spoiler: Never before: The Life, Art & First New York Career Of Astrid Varnay: Part 1 (27:42) (2004)













Spoiler: Never before: The Life, Art & First New York Career Of Astrid Varnay: Part 2 (26:08) (2004)













Spoiler: Never before: The Life, Art & First New York Career Of Astrid Varnay: Part 3 (31:49)(2004)













Spoiler: Never before: The Life, Art & First New York Career Of Astrid Varnay: Part 4 (27:42) (2004)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Shaughnessy said:


> In 2004, a documentary about Astrid Varnay's life and first New York career entitled _Never Before_ received acclaim in the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great photo of Lady M - I mean Ms.Varnay. I'll bet she and Modl were both compelling Lady Ms onstage.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I've looked up your name on Facebook to make you one of my friends


I do not have Facebook


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I like a lot of what Varnay does here. In general, this role works for her and despite moments where her articulation of the text gets lost or is muddy and some fixed notes, I really liked what she did with the aria. She doesn't have a natural piano, but she manages to lighten her voice to give an impression of piano singing that I liked. There's great use of chest voice in key moments as well.

Mmmm... I'm not sure about Dimitrova. Is she imitating Maria (and overdoing it)?

I like both, but they also have their shortcomings. I'd probably be spellbound in the theatre with either (after all I loved Trebs in the role, very dramatic and when half your brain is concentrating on the visuals, the other half can accept some of the vocal curve balls).

For me this is a draw.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I love the sound of Varnay's voice BUT I am from Seattle and we like things the rest of you don't 🤣 I love singers who have a very individual sound and Varnay certainly had THAT in spades. The fact that Woodduck said something positive about Varnay lends credence to the saying that you can be always surprised in life although his description of what her voice sounds like would not be what the Baptist church would call charitable The list of singers who are good at this role are actually few and of course some will be better at some elements than others. It is a murderous part.... so to speak.


Your reason for liking Varnay is one of the reasons I like Modl. Despite all Woodduck's protesting, not only has he said something positive about your mezzo Brunhilde, he's actually put forward mine as a suggested comparison (and it surely doesn't get any more complimentary than that! 😆)

N.

P.S. I've never even been to Seattle, so what's my excuse for liking things the rest of the forum don't?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Your reason for liking Varnay is one of the reasons I like Modl. Despite all Woodduck's protesting, not only has he said something positive about your mezzo Brunhilde, he's actually put forward mine as a suggested comparison (and it surely doesn't get any more complimentary than that! 😆)
> 
> N.
> 
> P.S. I've never even been to Seattle, so what's my excuse for liking things the rest of the forum don't?


You must be a superior human being like me 🤪


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Francasacchi said:


> I do not have Facebook


I was being silly. I doubt if any on here are active on Facebook. Most people here are older and most of my peers aren't active on Facebook. I am the social butterfly of our forum and I post extensively in many forums on Facebook and some of my photos have gotten thousands of likes. I have an interior design blog passionately followed by my social circle and post thousands of photos of gardens of the spectacular gardens here, my main hobby. My interests are myriad.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I was being silly. I doubt if any on here are active on Facebook. Most people here are older and most of my peers aren't active on Facebook. I am the social butterfly of our forum and I post extensively in many forums on Facebook and some of my photos have gotten thousands of likes. I have an interior design blog passionately followed by my social circle and post thousands of photos of gardens of the spectacular gardens here, my main hobby. My interests are myriad.


I post mainly on Facebook. I didn’t take to Instagram or Twitter because it was 45‘s main means of communication and I didn’t want to be exposed to his stupidity.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

MAS said:


> I post mainly on Facebook. I didn’t take to Instagram or Twitter because it was 45‘s main means of communication and I didn’t want to be exposed to his stupidity.


I have a very large and active Twitter account because it encompasses my myriad interests and I also use it for professional networking. Instagram is my sex account


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Francasacchi said:


> I have a very large and active Twitter account because it encompasses my myriad interests and I also use it for professional networking. Instagram is my sex account


Stephanie Blythe and I follow each other on Twitter and we are friendly enough that we direct message each other.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> This is the last time I will ever have my beloved Varnay in a contest. There are lots of Varnay fans but not in our circle quite obviously. Same for Dimitrova.


What ?!!
I have first learned about Varnay's existence here at Talk Classical and I was fascinated by her ! It was in "Oh, perfido" and I voted for her. I didn't vote for her here, but I do want to hear more from her :-(


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> What ?!!
> I have first learned about Varnay's existence here at Talk Classical and I was fascinated by her ! It was in "Oh, perfido" and I voted for her. I didn't vote for her here, but I do want to hear more from her :-(


You show great promise and good taste!!!!!!!! Check her out in the Dawn Duet contest I posted a few days ago. She was great in Wagner. People love her all over the world except not so much in our forum  Whatever you do do not discuss her with Woodduck or Tsaraslondon She did mezzo character parts in her later career and was one of the great actresses in the history of opera. Her dark enormous voice could be very expressive. Here you can see how intense a character actress she was as Klytemnestra late in her career:


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> You show great promise and good taste!!!!!!!! Check her out in the Dawn Duet contest I posted a few days ago. She was great in Wagner. People love her all over the world except not so much in our forum  She did mezzo character parts in her later career and was one of the great actresses in the history of opera. Here you can see how intense a character actress she was as Klytemnestra late in her career:


I love this film! And Varnay is magnificent. She's also good in the film of Salome.

I also like her Ortrud and Venus.

N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Francasacchi said:


> I have a very large and active Twitter account because it encompasses my myriad interests and I also use it for professional networking. Instagram is my sex account


Meaning accounts of your sexual activities? 😂😂


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> You show great promise and good taste!!!!!!!! Check her out in the Dawn Duet contest I posted a few days ago. She was great in Wagner. People love her all over the world except not so much in our forum  Whatever you do do not discuss her with Woodduck or Tsaraslondon She did mezzo character parts in her later career and was one of the great actresses in the history of opera. Her dark enormous voice could be very expressive. Here you can see how intense a character actress she was as Klytemnestra late in her career:


Thank you, but I am not ready for the mature Wagner or Strauss just yet. It is possible my taste might change, but if it does, it will need time. I gave it a listen, but - nope. It's not about Varnay per se.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

*Astrid Varnay*

Opera scenes and orchestral songs

Link to label authorized complete recording -



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMm9m6dhCpc7IDtR4rdamL-g5pZR5A0Ut














*Opera Arias*

Ghena Dimitrova

Link to label authorized complete recording -



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nzSFWx419fKncz02dZ_JWDpDjnWzTHxkE


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Dimitrova. But Varnay is close. I like both and I'm not agree that they are treated here like a Cinderella by her sisters.


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