# If you could commission a symphony of your liking, what would it be like?



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

If you could commission a symphony of your liking, what would it be like?

Please select up to 5 options! The choices may be seemingly contradictory, because in music everything is possible.

Let us see what kind of a symphony TC Community would like to have. We could well picture that there is a millionaire who wants to commission a symphony which is based on the results of this vote! And the composer/composer team would be selected accordingly.

Let´s also discuss, of course!


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

What a great idea! I wish I knew more symphonies so I really knew what I liked, but an epic symphony in the style of Beethoven you can never go wrong with


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

I would like if the composer produced the very best he or she is in position to produce, not being restricted by whichever more or less intelligent constraints.

(A constraint given by the size of the concert hall in question or the staff of the orchestra in question or similar is ok.)


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## prlj (10 mo ago)

I am fortunate enough to be a part of a number of commissions and commission consortiums, and I am always interested in something that pushes the boundaries a bit...pieces that reflect the lens of our times. I'm very keen on technology, as it, too, is such a critical component of our era. Finally, but not least of all, ways to engage otherwise typically underrepresented composers and performers. 

I think commissions are one of the most vital aspects of what we do...I only wish we could do more. (As always...$$$$)


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Today, I have Dvorak's Fifth Symphony stuck in my head, so I want a symphony like that. The symphony is essentially Czech Brahms, so I would like a four movement 35 to 45 minute Brahms style symphony, perhaps with folk influence of some sort. It doesn't need to be epic, but it shouldn't be lightweight either.

Maybe tomorrow my answer would be different, but I still would prefer a Romantic symphony of moderate length. That part's constant.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Thanks for the comments and votings so far. Just pointing out that one should feel free to pick options that are seemingly contradictory. Much of great music tends to balance between dichotomies. Humanity is basically about balancing!


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

If music is some kind of authentic expression of its time, there is no sense in requesting a "symphony in Mozart style" or similar. Why should some composer spend some time to produce something fully artificial?


ORigel said:


> The symphony is essentially Czech Brahms,


Why don't you say: Brahms' symphonies are German Dvořák?

Brahms and Dvořák, aren't they individual and important and good enough to look at them as individuals, not as versions of someone else?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Philidor said:


> If music is some kind of authentic expression of its time, there is no sense in requesting a "symphony in Mozart style" or similar. Why should some composer spend some time to produce something fully artificial?


Although it is OK to wish for a pastishe, I would think that majority here would welcome an ”update” even if the music was ”spiritually” related to someone in the past.

Every kind of wish is welcome in this thread. We should not limit ourselves here.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Visiting here from the opera subforum, and I am wondering, why did eclectic and diverse style get the most votes up to this point ? In opera, it would be Samson et Dalila by Saint-Saens, and I think it is a slight disadvantage to that opera. A little Bach, a little Gregorian chant, imitation of Arabic maquam, romantism... What is the example of an existing symphony, which is eclectic ?


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Waehnen said:


> Every kind of wish is welcome in this thread. We should not limit ourselves here.


I would see a limit when a composer is reduced to a marionette dancing to the wishes of someone who understands much less about the stuff than the composer himself or herself.

The idea of "photoshopping" a symphony ...

Human dignity is touched in such scenarios, as far as I am concerned.

If someone wishes a symphony in this or that way that doesn't exist yet, and if he or she feels the deep need for such symphony to exist, he or she should sit down and write it himself/herself. That's how art is created. Nuff said.


BBSVK said:


> What is the example of an existing symphony, which is eclectic ?


Spohr, Symphony No. 6 "historical"


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Philidor said:


> I would see a limit when a composer is reduced to a marionette dancing to the wishes of someone who understands much less about the stuff than the composer himself or herself.
> 
> The idea of "photoshopping" a symphony ...
> 
> ...


I cannot claim to disagree with you.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Philidor said:


> Spohr, Symphony No. 6 "historical"


Liking because of the example of eclectic symphony.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> Liking because of the example of eclectic symphony.


Yes, I like it too, but not for musical reasons. Just to see how some idea can fail. (Or do you think the baroque sections are sounding like baroque music?)

In the town where I live there is a museum. Its biggest treasure is the complete kit of instruments of a roman physician from the 2nd century a. c. It contains an instrument for trepanation.

Although I admire the art of the roman physician, I would prefer not to be medicated with these instruments.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Philidor said:


> Yes, I like it too, but not for musical reasons. Just to see how some idea can fail. (Or do you think the baroque sections are sounding like baroque music?)
> 
> In the town where I live there is a museum. Its biggest treasure is the complete kit of instruments of a roman physician from the 2nd century a. c. It contains an instrument for trepanation.
> 
> Although I admire the art of the roman physician, I would prefer not to be medicated with these instruments.


I took the liberty of voting here, and eclectic was not my choice, because I know what it does to Samson et Dalila. It isn't horrible, I still like the opera, but it is a minus. 
I didn't check the Spohr's symphony yet. 

As an eternal amateur, who plays no instrument, never studied composition and still does not understand many aspects of music, I feel I still can have musical wishes. I would commission an opera if I had money to spare  .You don't want me to write my own


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

We could well picture that there is a millionaire who wants to commission a symphony which is based on the results of this vote! And the composer/composer team would be selected accordingly.

This frees us from moral problems! 😂


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

@Waehnen ...are you fishing around for inspiration and/or sponsorship?......


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> @Waehnen ...are you fishing around for inspiration and/or sponsorship?......


I am trying to compose exactly the symphony I would like to hear. So my work as a composer is to think every day what I would love to hear. You know, I have the freedom to get to hear whatever I want because so far I have been able to create whatever I want. 

So I became interested what would the TC community want to hear. So this poll is a parallel project, not the same project! When it comes to my symphony, I ain’t asking nobody!


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Speak of the devil ,I am composing a symphony now,my first,although I have two orchestral suites and a dozen concerto's and one double concerto.

First movement scetched and 18 measures formally orchestrated,it's Molto Adagio.It's semi-tonal or free tonal.

The score is
2 flutes
2 oboes
2 clarinets Bf
1 English Horn F
2 bassoons
1 contra bassoon

2 trumpets Bf
4 horns in F
three tenor trombones


20 violins
8 violas
6 cellos
4 basses


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Partly because I feel that the days of symphonies are coming to an end, I would want a solo instrument (as with Britten's Cello Symphony). Or, even better perhaps, the use of voice and words in some way - as with Das Lied von der Erde or, alternatively, Britten's Spring Symphony.


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## Georgieva (7 mo ago)

It would be probably something, which includes Russian spirit and German intellect in a precise proportion.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

At this time of the vote it can be stated that the TC Community isn’t necessarily welcoming a strictly tonal and impressionistic, explicitly religious symphony! I wonder if there is such a symphony anywhere?


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Enthusiast said:


> Partly because I feel that the days of symphonies are coming to an end,


Why this?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Philidor said:


> Why this?


I'm not sure I can think of any living composers who are great symphonists on a par with Mahler or Sibelius. Shostakovich followed (with mixed results IMO) and after him ... (not sure). I can think of some good recent symphonists but not IMO that good. Meanwhile, all the really great recent composers do not seem to have written symphonies.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Millionaires (or just rich people in general) are very welcome to commission a symphony from yours truly. I've written 6 of them already, but there's always room for a couple more.

But seriously, I don't think many composers would agree with strict prescriptions regarding style, mood and technique, and many would be offended by the suggestion of writing something "in the style of..." for other than purely commercial reasons. Of course it's perfectly reasonable to ask for a piece of a certain length, or written for a fixed number of performers.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

So many symphonists here on TC alone....
@Enthusiast, have you listened to any David Matthews? He's grappled with the symphonic form in an effort to make it relevant today and to my ears, I think he's doing a good job of it. McCabe also kept the spark alight with 7 of 'em, that I've yet to fully explore.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Philidor said:


> If music is some kind of authentic expression of its time, there is no sense in requesting a "symphony in Mozart style" or similar. Why should some composer spend some time to produce something fully artificial?
> 
> Why don't you say: Brahms' symphonies are German Dvořák?
> 
> Brahms and Dvořák, aren't they individual and important and good enough to look at them as individuals, not as versions of someone else?


It seems Brahms and Dvorak influenced one another in their symphonies. Dvorak's Fifth has some resemblance to the later Brahms' Third; supposedly Dvorak wrote his Seventh after hearing Brahms' Third. OTOH, the Eighth is Dvorak at his melodic best.

I'm not saying Dvorak is a Brahms ripoff (or vice versa).


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

RobertJTh said:


> Millionaires (or just rich people in general) are very welcome to commission a symphony from yours truly. I've written 6 of them already, but there's always room for a couple more.
> 
> But seriously, I don't think many composers would agree with strict prescriptions regarding style, mood and technique, and many would be offended by the suggestion of writing something "in the style of..." for other than purely commercial reasons. Of course it's perfectly reasonable to ask for a piece of a certain length, or written for a fixed number of performers.


I didn't think this was a serious proposal, just a fun little exercise.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

mikeh375 said:


> So many symphonists here on TC alone....
> @Enthusiast, have you listened to any David Matthews? He's grappled with the symphonic form in an effort to make it relevant today and to my ears, I think he's doing a good job of it. McCabe also kept the spark alight with 7 of 'em, that I've yet to fully explore.


Are you saying they are on a par with the greats of the past (taking Sibelius and Mahler as reference points)? If not then there is just so much contemporary music that is by composers who I hear as being as great as these but they just don't generally write symphonies (well, Elliot Carter wrote a couple, and Maxwell Davies wrote several). There is too much music out there that is great and could keep me busy for the rest of my life. I know McCabe (not his symphonies, though) and find him good. I don't think Matthews is my cup of tea.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Symphonies are my favorite category of music, so I want a full scale symphony in the manner of Beethoven and Brahms (with counterpoint, modulations, development, contrasts of dynamics and solid structure) but that nevertheless uses synthesizers and electric guitars together with the orchestra, blending elements of classical music with those of Pop, particularly EDM, and Rock/Metal. I want this symphony to be microtonal tonal (with some adventurous microtonal harmony), although some atonalism and harsh dissonances may be used sometimes for effect. The symphony may be vocal (I do love vocal symphonies), but, if so, I still want at least half of it's playing time of instrumental music, and I want that electronic devices are used together with the singing to produce new sounds and tone colors (some ultra low or ultra high notes, unreachable without such devices, would be welcome). And forget the cliché bleakness of Schnittke and Gubaidulina - I want music that breathes, that is full of life.

I wish I was a composer so that I was able to create such a symphony. There's nothing like it yet.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

ORigel said:


> It seems Brahms and Dvorak influenced one another in their symphonies.


Early Dvorak was an opera composer. His late symphonies should not veil the fact that vocal composition (and string quartets) was his business. Which influence could there have been by Brahms?

However, for Brahms, it is similar: We have four symphonies and four concertos, but much more lieder and chamber music. Sometimes I have the impression that Brahms' nature is obscured by focussing on symphonies, which does not emphasize the core area of his output, which was intimate.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Philidor said:


> Early Dvorak was an opera composer. His late symphonies should not veil the fact that vocal composition (and string quartets) was his business. Which influence could there have been by Brahms?
> 
> However, for Brahms, it is similar: We have four symphonies and four concertos, but much more lieder and chamber music. Sometimes I have the impression that Brahms' nature is obscured by focussing on symphonies, which does not emphasize the core area of his output, which was intimate.


We are talking about symphonies here. Not chamber music, lieder, or operas. Dvorak's Fifth might have inspired Brahms' Third Symphony, as it was composed years earlier. They're in the same key, and their material sounds similar (take the opening of the slow movements).


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

ORigel said:


> We are talking about symphonies here. Not chamber music, lieder, or operas. Dvorak's Fifth might have inspired Brahms' Third Symphony, as it was composed years earlier. They're in the same key, and their material sounds similar (take the opening of the slow movements).


I can't see any deeper link.

Looking at the "outside large scale architecture": Dvorak is aiming for an assertive ending of the symphony whilst Brahms lets all four movements end in piano or pianissmo (unique in the whole symphonic repertoire of the 19th century, afaik).

In Brahms' symphony, you find motivic links across the movement. The "leitmotif" of the symphony, the beginning of the first movement, reappers at the end of the finale. Any precedence at Dvorak?

In Brahms' symphony, the theme from the 2nd movement (bar 40) reappears in a similar way in movement 4 (bar 18). Any precedence at Dvorak?

In Brahms' symphony, the first theme of movement 3 is related to the 2nd theme of movement 4. Any precedence at Dvorak?

The gestus of the first movements is so far away from each other as two first movements can be: Allegero ma non troppo 2/4 vs. Allegro con brio 6/4.

Tonality of the movements. 
Dvorak: F major - A minor - B flat major - F major.
Brahms: F major - C major - C minor - F minor.

It would be quite easy to continue this way.

Besides some similarity of the openings of the 2nd movements, what else could suggest that Dvorak #5 was a model for Brahms #3?


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 8


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## prlj (10 mo ago)

Xisten267 said:


> Symphonies are my favorite category of music, so I want a full scale symphony in the manner of Beethoven and Brahms (with counterpoint, modulations, development, contrasts of dynamics and solid structure) but that nevertheless uses synthesizers and electric guitars together with the orchestra, blending elements of classical music with those of Pop, particularly EDM, and Rock/Metal. I want this symphony to be microtonal tonal (with some adventurous microtonal harmony), although some atonalism and harsh dissonances may be used sometimes for effect. The symphony may be vocal (I do love vocal symphonies), but, if so, I still want at least half of it's playing time of instrumental music, and I want that electronic devices are used together with the singing to produce new sounds and tone colors (some ultra low or ultra high notes, unreachable without such devices, would be welcome). And forget the cliché bleakness of Schnittke and Gubaidulina - I want music that breathes, that is full of life.


Well then you're sort of in luck! We commissioned a piece that we premiered earlier this season that ticks SOME of these boxes. Once we finish editing the video, I'll be sure to link it here. (We commissioned it in partnership with EarthQuaker Devices...I'll leave it at that for the moment...)


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm not sure I can think of any living composers who are great symphonists on a par with Mahler or Sibelius.


Per Nørgård is immediately coming to my mind. From my perspective, clearly on a par with the well-known symphonists. Furthermore: Tüür. Sumera. Coates.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

prlj said:


> Well then you're sort of in luck! We commissioned a piece that we premiered earlier this season that ticks SOME of these boxes. Once we finish editing the video, I'll be sure to link it here. (We commissioned it in partnership with EarthQuaker Devices...I'll leave it at that for the moment...)


I'll look forward to it then.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Philidor said:


> I can't see any deeper link.
> 
> Looking at the "outside large scale architecture": Dvorak is aiming for an assertive ending of the symphony whilst Brahms lets all four movements end in piano or pianissmo (unique in the whole symphonic repertoire of the 19th century, afaik).
> 
> ...


Influenced by doesn't mean following slavishly. Brahms probably used some structural ideas from Mozart's Clarinet Quintet when composing his VERY DIFFERENT Quintet, says program notes. He had a theme in the finale of the First Symphony that resembles the Ode to Joy theme. I remember a Hurwitz video where he did show that Dvorak had subtle motivic connections between the movements of the Fifth symphony.


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

Awesome. How many people on this thread are currently writing a symphony? Can count me into that number as well.

I keep going back to my one and only rule of music. There's no rules.

Many people don't have the means to write their own perfect symphony. Even once I have written mine it won't be perfect, even for me. For me, perfection in symphonic form is Mozart 40. You can't fault it. But the greatest symphony for me is Dvorak 9. Yes, I know it's overplayed, and that's for a lot of very good reasons.

Anyone who is sufficiently curious about mine can see more here;

audio:
http://www.sundayclub.com/adrien/symphony_no_1_movt2.mp3

score:
http://www.sundayclub.com/adrien/symphony_no_1_movt2.pdf


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

My favorite modern symphony is No.3 by Lutoslawski. If any current composer is capable of creating something this exciting I'm all ears.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> *Are you saying they are on a par with the greats of the past (taking Sibelius and Mahler as reference points)?* If not then there is just so much contemporary music that is by composers who I hear as being as great as these but they just don't generally write symphonies (well, Elliot Carter wrote a couple, and Maxwell Davies wrote several). There is too much music out there that is great and could keep me busy for the rest of my life. I know McCabe (not his symphonies, though) and find him good. I don't think Matthews is my cup of tea.


I forgot the context of your post and went on to post what I thought was a chatty fyi, sorry. I don't tend to do subjective comparisons in the manner bolded, comparing someone like Mahler or Sibelius with Tippet, McCabe, Matthews, Henze et al has no value beyond the personal imv, unless it gets technical, which can be very instructive up to a point. I did forget Maxwell Davies and his impressive body of symphonies though which was remiss of me. Personally, I do think there's still some mileage left in the symphonic form.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Waehnen said:


> At this time of the vote it can be stated that the TC Community isn’t necessarily welcoming a strictly tonal and impressionistic, explicitly religious symphony! I wonder if there is such a symphony anywhere?


Mendelssohn Bartholdy, Symphony No. 2 "Lobgesang"?


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## prlj (10 mo ago)

adrien said:


> Anyone who is sufficiently curious about mine can see more here;
> 
> http://www.sundayclub.com/adrien/symphony_no_1_movt2.pdf (score)
> http://www.sundayclub.com/adrien/symphony_no_1_movt2.mp3 (render)


Genuinely enjoying this this morning...lovely work! (And well-rendered...)


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## Gold Member (Aug 23, 2021)

For the AI generation software today, I'll go with

Sounds like Beethoven
Sounds like Shostakovich ....and for kicks,
Aesthetically autonomous "pure music"

Elements I want less of will be

With heavy, full "epic" sound
Atonal
Emphasis on melodies


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

prlj said:


> Genuinely enjoying this this morning...lovely work! (And well-rendered...)


thanks! I'm glad you liked it. NotePerformer does not such a bad job in the end.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

At this time of the vote it would appear that the community would welcome:

*A freetonal romantic symphony in the great tradition of Beethoven, Brahms and Sibelius, with an emphasis on melodies.*


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

It is funny to see Beethoven and Sibelius in one common great tr adition.

It is also funny to see the wish to have a freetonal romantic symphony in the great traditon of Brahms (one of the composers which immediately come to one's mind when thinking about "freetonal").

It is also funny to see the wish to have a romantic symphony in the great tradition of Brahms (among others) with an emphasis on melodies. Yes, Brahms was a master in writing nice melodies. That's why I like him so much.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Maybe I found a symphony matching your criteria.

*Per Nørgård: Rejse ind i den gyldne skærm* (Voyage into the Golden Screen, 1968)

Nørgård is one of the great symphonist after 1950. The work is inspired by Beethoven. Nørgård himself stated several times that SIbelius is one of his most important musical roots.

In the second movement of the work Nørgård unfolds the "infinity series", a great melody, which carries the whole movement ("emphasis on melodies").

The musical language is neither tonal nor dodecaphonic, it is completely new without being atonal, due to the foundations given by the infinity series.

Hapyy listening!


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

The best thing about this thread is probably matching people's wishes to existing symphonies. So how about my wishes ? I want the symphony to have an operatic quality, so it should be programmatic. Vocals help but are not a condition, for instance Korsakof's Sheheresade feels operatic enough without a voice. Melodic - tuneful and not very dissonant. Prokofiev level of dissonant is a maximum. I am sure I can find something like this in history, but what about living composers ? I should look into movie music, I guess ?


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

I think it is always difficult to make good suggestions. Did you try Prokofiev's ballet music for Cinderella and Romeo?

Your words are bringing Atterberg, Holmboe and Langgaard to my mind ...


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## ansfelden (Jan 11, 2022)

I´d like to hear an ambient/noise Brucknerian symphony.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

For me personally, it must have at least one Maestoso movement.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

I would commission the shade of Mahler to finish his 10th.

And "strictly tonal" would be boring.


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## prlj (10 mo ago)

ansfelden said:


> I´d like to hear an ambient/noise Brucknerian symphony.


Are you familiar with Glenn Branca?


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## ansfelden (Jan 11, 2022)

prlj said:


> Are you familiar with Glenn Branca?


not yet. will check out when time.


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## Klavierman (9 mo ago)

About 30 minutes long, freely tonal but still basically melodic, dark, violent, rhythmically complex, and densely contrapuntal.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

In the great tradition of Beethoven, Brahms, Brucker, Mahler and Shostakovich.
and not the decadent Classicist Sibelius, I'm just kidding


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