# To One Who is Unfamiliar with Classical Music...



## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

To one who is unfamiliar with classical music all classical music sounds the same.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

So that's why I can never tell Respighi's _Circenses_ from Bach's _Goldberg Variations!_


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

More like Bach sounds like Mozart, Mozart sounds like Bach, every piece by Bach sounds like every other piece by Bach. The question is how to remedy this defect; how to get more people interested in classical music?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Klassic said:


> More like Bach sounds like Mozart, Mozart sounds like Bach, every piece by Bach sounds like every other piece by Bach. The question is how to remedy this defect; *how to get more people interested in classical music?*


To begin with, they have to hear it. It has to be easily available. Whether or not they hear it at home, it has to be in the schools. It's as much a part of our cultural heritage as any other subject, and the value of participatory musical training - singing, playing an instrument, membership in ensembles - has been known since ancient times and has proven positive effects, physically, psychologically and academically. Musical training - training of the ear, mind and body, any participatory involvement - should be universal. When people know how music works from the inside, they're more likely to be drawn to the more complex forms of it.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, I don't like rap, and to me, every piece of rap music sounds the same.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Quick question: Why on earth should we want to get more people interested in classical music? Serious question.


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

Really, I don't care if more people become interested in classical; people are free to enjoy music that they like.

But realistically, I would like more people to get interested in classical so that performers can be better funded, more CD's produced and sold and less out of print (Really quite a problem for people like me who chase after rare CD's - more Patrick Bismuths and Kei Koitos and Leonhardt plays Forqueray for everyone!), more performances near me, etc.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

bioluminescentsquid said:


> Really, I don't care if more people become interested in classical; people are free to enjoy music that they like.
> 
> But realistically, I would like more people to get interested in classical so that performers can be better funded, more CD's produced and sold and less out of print (Really quite a problem for people like me who chase after rare CD's - more Patrick Bismuths and Kei Koitos and Leonhardt plays Forqueray for everyone!), more performances near me, etc.


That's what happens with streaming music.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> To begin with, they have to hear it.


A shame more businesses don't pipe in classical music instead of the pop rot so prevalent as background music.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Florestan said:


> A shame more businesses don't pipe in classical music instead of the pop rot so prevalent as background music.


There some that do. Those business do not have a problem with teenagers hanging out there.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I read a study last year that found restaurants that played classical music (of the Mozart type) had patrons that stayed longer, ordered higher-priced menu items, and guzzled more high-margin drinks. Sounds like classical music has a practical use.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> A shame more businesses don't pipe in classical music instead of the pop rot so prevalent as background music.


Using classical as background is even worse.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2016)

Klassic said:


> To one who is unfamiliar with classical music all classical music sounds the same.


Is that really true? Have you done some kind of survey or test...

Prof Klassic: "OK. I'm going to play you two pieces of 'classical music' (hehe) which are 'unfamiliar' to you and I want you to tell me whether the two sound the same or whether you notice any differences."

[Plays Sequentia's Canticles of Ecstasy (von Bingen) and Prokofiev's Symphony No 2]

Test subject: "Nope...both the same."

Hmmmm....!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Using classical as background is even worse.


I wouldn't mind it one bit, but I suppose it could result in a lack of appreciation through saturation. But the masses won't take to it, and that is why the pop rot is played instead.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

KenOC said:


> I read a study last year that found restaurants that played classical music (of the Mozart type) had patrons that stayed longer, ordered higher-priced menu items, and guzzled more high-margin drinks. Sounds like classical music has a practical use.


And when they're ready to rap things up for the evening they put on some Xenakis. Everybody asks for their check and heads for the door. I'd rather hear classical or jazz while dining, as opposed to NashVegas country, or oldies, or endless Sinatra and Dean Martin like they pipe in at those crummy Olive Garden restaurants.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Klassic said:


> how to get more people interested in classical music?


it should start from the school, if not earlier; whereas mass cult & media stuff ought to be marginalised and banned from direct access to people, like it was with sex-shops, for example.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Klassic said:


> To one who is unfamiliar with classical music all classical music sounds the same.





Strange Magic said:


> So that's why I can never tell Respighi's _Circenses_ from Bach's _Goldberg Variations!_


Strange Magic's response is the obvious rejoinder, but looking at it a little less literally, it's a reasonable statement.
It's not so much that all classical music actually sounds the same, but the differences between pieces don't seem significant enough. Casting my mind back 30-ish years to when I first decided to listen to classical, the pieces I heard included Vivaldi's _Four Seaons_ and Prokofiev's _Romeo and Juliet_ (or, more specifically, the most famous bit from each one). At no point did I think that these two pieces literally sounded the same, but the fact that one was a violin concerto and the other a ballet wasn't relevant to my thinking, nor was the fact that over 200 years and half a continent separated their composition. There was, so to speak, a single category called "classical music" in my brain, and they were both in it. As luck would have it, I liked them both and kept listening so that the single category became many, but if I hadn't liked either piece then presumably I would have continued categorising all classical music merely as "classical music" and ignored the differences that now seem obvious.

Surely this is not a problem specific to classical music; to someone with no interest in philately, presumably all postage stamps "look the same" in as much as _they're all just stamps_.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2016)

Indeed. You can only see the distinctions if you are motivated to look closer. This is not unique to classical music.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Florestan said:


> A shame more businesses don't pipe in classical music instead of the pop rot so prevalent as background music.


No, no, no, no! It would be a shame to profane classical music in this way, by turning it into "shopping music".


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I think some classical is intended to be "shopping" music, or certainly banquet music. Hanging the Mona Lisa in a hotel would not turn it into hotel art.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> it should start from the school, if not earlier; whereas mass cult & media stuff ought to be marginalised and banned from direct access to people, like it was with sex-shops, for example.


Good idea! All fun should be banned! What's a sex shop? You can buy sex in a shop?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Klassic said:


> To one who is unfamiliar with classical music all classical music sounds the same.


The silliness of such a taste aside, I think there´s a point in _Greatest Classical Hits _normally not including the true variety of the genre, and not being sufficiently updated to include the later part of the 20th century, or earlier music than Baroque.

I´d like newcomers to be able to hear also such different works as Dowland´s Ayres, Encina´s songs, Nørgård´s Percussion Concerto, Saariaho´s Flute Concerto, and Murail´s "L´Esprit des Dunes", just to mention a couple of examples.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Good idea! All fun should be banned!


discriminated, not banned.



EdwardBast said:


> What's a sex shop? You can buy sex in a shop?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_shop


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

....................................deleted.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Klassic said:


> To one who is unfamiliar with classical music all classical music sounds the same.


To the extent that Klassic's assertion is true, Disney's _Fantasia_ provided an almost perfect antidote and corrective. _Fantasia_ remains a most powerful and effective introduction to classical music, and should be shown repeatedly in schools, where it would both delight and enlighten.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> To the extent that Klassic's assertion is true, Disney's _Fantasia_ provided an almost perfect antidote and corrective. _Fantasia_ remains a most powerful and effective introduction to classical music, and should be shown repeatedly in schools, where it would both delight and enlighten.


Not a foolproof, Fantasia never interested me, the animation and music both, but I agree that there should be a more interesting presentation of classical music to people, especially children than in the elevators, or while waiting on the phone,anything that screams 'boredom'; maybe more different animations with various classical music, the more of them the better. Music like everything else in the world is subject to conditioning, that's why pop so popular.' The best of..'s are inadequate introductions too I think.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Weston said:


> I think some classical is intended to be "shopping" music, or certainly banquet music. Hanging the Mona Lisa in a hotel would not turn it into hotel art.


Perhaps chamber music is more appropriate for background.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

I was looking for some cheap albums online and came accross one of these beginner compilations titled 'The Only Classical Album You'll Ever Need'. It is like advertising that classical music on it would fail to interest anybody to investigate further. Absurd title.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Klassic said:


> To one who is unfamiliar with classical music all classical music sounds the same.


I do tend to hear this often.

I think the main reason for this, is they are only exposed to the most popular, standard pieces, by the best know composers, usually from the 1700's - 1900's. I think what is happening, is that they begin to believe that all classical sounds like those few samples. This is the thought process, "if there were more variations, why aren't I hearing them?".

I speak from experience, because that is exactly how I thought before I got into classical.

It wasn't until I heard 20th century up through contemporary classical, that figured out that there was a wide variety, and I fell in love with classical.



> Well, I don't like rap, and to me, every piece of rap music sounds the same.


But this is more accurate, for good reasons.

When music is stripped down to the most basic constituents, there is substantially less variety available. How much variation can be achieved when the vast majority is in 4/4, a few chords, constant tempo, etc?

Sure, some of the surface style can be varied, but variations in the underlying song structure is very limited.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I


Marinera said:


> Not a foolproof, Fantasia never interested me, the animation and music both.


What was your age when you first saw/heard Fantasia? This may have a big bearing on its effectiveness as an introduction to CM. I saw it several times during my childhood, and was mesmerized, though I had already been conditioned to hearing classical music at home--mostly The Russians.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Quick question: Why on earth should we want to get more people interested in classical music? Serious question.


HUMANITY, my dear friend! Because it makes the world a better place.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Listen, Learn, Improve


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2016)

Klassic said:


> HUMANITY, my dear friend! Because it makes the world a better place.


That's not an unassailable claim. It's true that listening to music (of all types, not just classical) makes _my _world a better place, but I'm not sure about anyone else's. As for the grander idea that it makes _the _world a better place, I have considerable doubts.

Unless you're going to argue that the tiny %age of regular CM consumers and producers over time have lived in some kind of improving bubble while those outside have gone to hell in a handcart?


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> I
> 
> What was your age when you first saw/heard Fantasia? This may have a big bearing on its effectiveness as an introduction to CM. I saw it several times during my childhood, and was mesmerized, though I had already been conditioned to hearing classical music at home--mostly The Russians.


About 10. I watched parts of Fantasia a little yesterday, to see it with the new eyes, plus I don't remember music very well too. Now I am actually surprised I managed to sit through it that long back then, but the last clip before I gave up and stopped watching back then was either with Mickey or dinosaurs, I didn't recognize any other clips afterwards. Still, this is a half way through, a solid hour.

I can't believe that intro with nothing only musicians and abstract visuals plays for 15 minutes, a bit too long amd definitely not an attention grabbing quater of an hour. I either started watching it later or most likely I was waiting very patiently for the actual animation to begin. The actual animation is good and pretty, like all Disney's, but storylines are boring. I remember with the first clip I was waiting for the real action to begin, instead I got few fairies flying around the screen and a group of dancing muchrooms. And that's all. The impression I still remember from watching Fantasia was waiting for more interesting storyline, action ,adventure with each clip and so on for an hour so it seems, untill it became obvious that here's a little too much dancing, flying, swimming around for my taste and not enough of a good engaging story. By the time I saw this movie I knew Tchaikovsky's nutcracker quite well, his ballets were my favourite and I already had much more interesting storylines and visuals to back up the music. So mushrooms and couple of fairies were quite underwhelming.. I think Tchaikovsky's music were the best here, intro music takes a distant second place perhaps and the music from the next clips simply did not register on my radar, rather like most movie music. It did not stand out on its own enough, even now it's not my favourite and I sampled it all this time including animation.

To me Fantasia movie experience was a kiddie equivalent of 'Waiting for Godot'.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

This might be true of SOME people who are new to classical music , but once you get enough experience listening to a variety of works by different composers of different eras, nationalities and compositional styles, I think this notion will quickly pass . 
Once you get to know the most famous works by say, Bach, Handel, Haydn Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn ,Brahms, Berlioz, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Saint-Saens, Debussy, Ravel,
Rachmaninov, Rimsky-Korsakov, Smetana, Wagner (overturs, preludes etc ) , Stravinsky, Bartok, Prokofiev, for example, this misconception should vanish . If not, there's something wrong with you !


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Maybe to non-classical listeners, the term 'classical music' only conjures up orchestral works in the 19th century Germanic tradition or a well-upholstered soprano dying noisily? I can't see either of those being a good gateway drug, especially if only heard in fragments on the radio. I'm currently listening to a Ravel Piano Trio: that might be more likely to grab some new listeners simply because it has separate voices rather than the orchestral wall of sound. Or maybe not. In the end, it probably comes down to letting people hear a diversity of music, of whatever genre, in conditions that are amenable to patient listening.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> That's not an unassailable claim. It's true that listening to music (of all types, not just classical) makes _my _world a better place, but I'm not sure about anyone else's. As for the grander idea that it makes _the _world a better place, I have considerable doubts.
> 
> Unless you're going to argue that the tiny %age of regular CM consumers and producers over time have lived in some kind of improving bubble while those outside have gone to hell in a handcart?


What do the arts do? What is their principle purpose, what is their place in society? Answer: they instill a sense of dignity, they teach us to express ourselves as opposed to swiftly killing each other, they teach us to be moved and affected, and insofar as classical music does this, it makes the world a better place.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2016)

Klassic said:


> What do the arts do? What is their principle purpose, what is their place in society? Answer:


That's three questions, but only one answer.

What do the arts do? Answer: Nothing, as the arts are 'done' (they are not an agent).
What is their principle purpose? Answer: There isn't one principle, but many, depending on the agent (the artist) and what purpose they wish to put them to. (The commissioner of an artist may wish some purpose other than the artist wishes, however).
What is their place in society? Answer: It varies since there is not one homogeneous society which places art somewhere in particular. The place of the arts in 'civilised' societies means that public money is spent on them - though not always to good effect - but perhaps less than is spent on defence(?) As for the individual artist, her place might be at the top table, or out in the wild: there is no guarantee that she will be lauded. Within the civilised society, the many different communities may treat the arts and the artist quite differently.

I guess it's true that if the Syrians stop fighting, they'll have time for art again...oh, hang on, they're still busy...

http://theculturetrip.com/middle-ea...0-best-syrian-artists-and-where-to-find-them/


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Good idea! All fun should be banned! What's a sex shop? You can buy sex in a shop?


Well, for us lucky Southern Californians, if you mosey up to Nevada...


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Quick question: Why on earth should we want to get more people interested in classical music? Serious question.


I think we need to so we can keep it going. If we don't, as people die, classical music will die with it!!


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

MarkW said:


> Well, I don't like rap, and to me, every piece of rap music sounds the same.


I don 't like anything in pop music. They call themselves musicians when they can't sing or play a note!!


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

Klassic said:


> What do the arts do? What is their principle purpose, what is their place in society? Answer: they instill a sense of dignity, they teach us to express ourselves as opposed to swiftly killing each other, they teach us to be moved and affected, and insofar as classical music does this, it makes the world a better place.


That's ridiculous. Serial killers or dictators (you-know-who) have appreciation for arts doesn't make them any more civilized or any less trigger-happy. You can't be "taught" to be moved or affected. 
Equating any form of art and it's appreciation to a "greater" human being - smarter, pacifist, what-have-you - is wishful thinking.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Florestan said:


> A shame more businesses don't pipe in classical music instead of the pop rot so prevalent as background music.


Weirdly enough I was in McDonalds in Glasgow and they were piping Mozart through the sound system. Twas lovely, unexpected and not one of the most popular pieces.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2016)

Judith said:


> I don 't like anything in pop music.


Fair enough - no obligation.



Judith said:


> They call themselves musicians when they can't sing or play a note!!


That "they" is quite a large and not very homogeneous group. I doubt that "they" all call themselves musicians, but doubtless some of them are; and also some of them can definitely sing and play.

If you'd like to offer some examples of your 'they', we could together check whether they can sing and play.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Herrenvolk said:


> That's ridiculous. Serial killers or dictators (you-know-who) have appreciation for arts doesn't make them any more civilized or any less trigger-happy. You can't be "taught" to be moved or affected.
> Equating any form of art and it's appreciation to a "greater" human being - smarter, pacifist, what-have-you - is wishful thinking.


I am learning very quickly that many people who listen to classical music do not actually _listen_. The music of Beethoven is a refutation of small minds.


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