# Is Wotan a comic character?



## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

I mentioned in another recent thread here that I recently showed up (with some skepticism) for Das Rheingold at the Met last week, my first Wagner, and was surprised at how much I loved it. Even though I had prepared by reading the libretto, watching videos and listening to recordings, it wasn't until I sat there and watched the whole 2 and a half hours unfold in front of me (with no intermission) that I understood how plot-driven and character-driven this story is, and how satisfying the story is when delivered with conviction and commitment by a great cast.

Now I'm preparing for Die Walkure next Monday, and I'm trying to get a grasp on the intentions behind these characters as their stories develop. While I had always imagined that Wotan would be portrayed in The Ring as a serious and lordly omnipotent, along the lines of Jehovah and Jupiter and Zeus etc. etc., in fact he came across in Greer Grimsley's portrayal as a comic character, indecisive and feckless yet charming and likable. This especially came across in his journey scenes with Loge, in which the pair reminded me in some ways of Almaviva and Figaro, or Tamino and Papageno. While there is not a direct correspondence to other comic characters in this tenor/baritone pair, it did seem to me that Wagner had the same correspondence in mind. I'd like to know from Wagner experts, am I imagining this?

As I study up for Die Walkure, I get an even stronger sense of Wotan as a comic character. He's incredibly feckless here - in fact, he is easily convinced to change his mind by the last person he speaks to. Which is usually either Fricka or Brunnhilde, and we all know how that works out. So, again, I am curious what Wagner experts might say: was Wotan conceived as a comic character? And, if so, is this rooted in anything within the original mythology, and what do we think Wagner was thinking?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

You can find potential for humor in the Ring, as you can in just about any serious work. But no, Wotan was not conceived as a comic character.


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

amfortas said:


> You can find potential for humor in the Ring, as you can in just about any serious work. But no, Wotan was not conceived as a comic character.


Thanks for the response. Has there been any explanation for the strange idea that a relatively supreme and powerful God (as I understand Wotan to be) is so easily influenced and persuaded by everyone he talks to? This does seem to be the pattern that drives the plot of both Rheingold and Walkure.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Good question! The answer lies in Wagner's conception of what the gods are, which is not really very different from the conception we find in both Norse and Greek mythology, where we find them to be superior to humans in powers but not in character. Don't be fooled by the Judeo-Christian idea of God, who is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omni-everything. In Norse mythology the gods are fallible and mortal (Wagner's "twilight of the gods" derives from the mythological Ragnarok) and engage in all sorts of adventures, some of which are indeed amusing. The extra dimension added by Wagner lies in his making the _Ring_ an allegory of the evolution of human consciousness and moral development, so that the course of Wotan's career shows him at the various stages of that evolution.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

He might look comic in Das Rheigold (not as comic as Loge, mind you), but he is definitely a tragic figure in Die Walkure.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Azol said:


> He might look comic in Das Rheingold (not as comic as Loge, mind you), but he is definitely a tragic figure in Die Walkure.


And certainly by the time we get to _Götterdämmerung_, even if we only see him through Waltraute's description.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Well, for one thing he has certainly been a comic book character 

There have been at least two comic book/graphic novel versions of the Ring, by Gil Kane (and others) in 1989-90 for DC Comics and by P. Craig Russell in 2001 for Dark Horse.

From the Dark Horse version:








I don't know this version, but P. Craig Russell has done a number of comics based on operas (or on stories that were made into operas).

Parsifal - 1976-77
Siegfried and the Dragon - 1978
La Sonnambula - 1979
Ein Heldentraum - 1985
Pelléas & Mélisande - 1985
Salomé - 1986
Ariane and Bluebeard - 1988
The Magic Flute - 1989-90
The Clowns - 1997 (Pagliacci)
The Godfather's Code - 2004 (Cavalleria rusticana)

There are several other books adapted from art songs and other pieces by Hugo Wolf, Erich Wolfgang Korngold, and others.


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

mountmccabe said:


> Well, for one thing he has certainly been a comic book character
> 
> There have been at least two comic book/graphic novel versions of the Ring, by Gil Kane (and others) in 1989-90 for DC Comics and by P. Craig Russell in 2001 for Dark Horse.


These opera comics do look great! Of course what I'm getting at is elements of comedy in The Ring, but at the same time I do want to own and read these comic books.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Someone in high places who is caught between vanity and human weakness.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Good question! The answer lies in Wagner's conception of what the gods are, which is not really very different from the conception we find in both Norse and Greek mythology, where we find them to be superior to humans in powers but not in character. Don't be fooled by the Judeo-Christian idea of God, who is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omni-everything. In Norse mythology the gods are fallible and mortal (Wagner's "twilight of the gods" derives from the mythological Ragnarok) and engage in all sorts of adventures, some of which are indeed amusing. The extra dimension added by Wagner lies in his making the _Ring_ an allegory of the evolution of human consciousness and moral development, so that the course of Wotan's career shows him at the various stages of that evolution.


what is the alegory? Can you be specific?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Jacck said:


> what is the alegory? Can you be specific?


An allegory is a symbolic story. The _Ring_ is a modern myth taking us from a primitive world filled with elemental non-human beings ruled by basic passions through a struggle - embodied especially in Wotan himself - toward a more mature, ethical view of life in which love - embodied especially in Brunnhilde - overcomes the lust for power.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Wagner and comedy? You must be joking!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Wagner and comedy? You must be joking!


And you must be losing your memory.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Wagner, like Verdi, wrote two comedies. _Das Liebesverbot_ and _Un Giorno di Regno_ are both youthful works, and neither is often performed. _Die Meistersinger_ and _Falstaff_ are mature works and among the masterpieces of the genre. Both composers introduce comic touches into some of their other operas as well.

In the _Ring,_ _Siegfried_ has a semi-comic villain in Mime, some of whose music is itself quite amusing; the affable, oily, fawning music for the scene where he tries to conceal his murderous intent in offering Siegfried poison, and is totally exasperated that Siegfried can read his thoughts, is hilarious. So is the spitting, sputtering spat between Mime and Alberich. _Das Rheingold_ is full of sharp humor, especially when we see things from the point of view of Loge, who is completely unawed by the pretensions and machinations of gods and dwarves.


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

Thanks to all for the informative responses. Makes sense. Three more "Ring" operas to go for me in the next 4 weeks, so I guess I'm just getting started.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> In the _Ring,_ _Siegfried_ has a semi-comic villain in Mime, some of whose music is itself quite amusing; the affable, oily, fawning music for the scene where he tries to conceal his murderous intent in offering Siegfried poison, and is totally exasperated that Siegfried can read his thoughts, is hilarious. So is the spitting, sputtering spat between Mime and Alberich.


Siegfried's attempts to imitate bird calls on his hunting horn are clearly meant to be comic.

And from the third act, don't forget "That's not a man!" Some audience members chafe when those next to them laugh, but it's hard to imagine Wagner didn't anticipate, and welcome, such a reaction.


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

I'm also sensing a lot of Mozart references in The Ring - nods to Zauberflote, especially - and based on my reading and research I don't think I'm imagining these references. Mozart wrote comedies, so this does seem to give more credence to the idea that various ideas in The Ring operas have comedic roots.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

amfortas said:


> Siegfried's attempts to imitate bird calls on his hunting horn are clearly meant to be comic.
> 
> And from the third act, don't forget "That's not a man!" Some audience members chafe when those next to them laugh, but it's hard to imagine Wagner didn't anticipate, and welcome, such a reaction.


The opera _Siegfried_ has been called the "scherzo of the _Ring,_" and a proper performance of it should bring out its light, exuberant and amusing aspects. It's probably a comedy more than anything else, and nearly all the characters can be viewed, at least in certain moments, through a comedic lens. In _Das Rheingold_ Loge could laugh at Wotan and his ambitions; in _Siegfried_ a wiser Wotan can chuckle at Mime's ignorance and exasperation, at his grandson's cockiness and naivete, at Alberich's ineffectual grandiosity, and at his own past. Mime and Alberich are both absurd in their sputtering viciousness, Siegfried and Fafner laugh at each other ("What big teeth you have..."), and even Erda, confronted with the Wanderer's hints about a new world order, just wants her erstwhile lover to quit harassing her and let her sleep through the coming catastrophe. Darkness will descend soon enough with _Gotterdammerung,_ and we should take time out with Siegfried to listen to the birds.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

marceliotstein said:


> *I'm also sensing a lot of Mozart references in The Ring - nods to Zauberflote, especially* - and based on my reading and research I don't think I'm imagining these references. Mozart wrote comedies, so this does seem to give more credence to the idea that various ideas in The Ring operas have comedic roots.


Interesting thought. Can you be more specific?


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Interesting thought. Can you be more specific?


Sure - here are a few Zauberflote references that come to mind. This is a growing list, since I've only seen Das Rheingold so far. Die Walkure is Monday night, and I've been studying up for the remaining three but still don't know them well.

1) The three ladies are echoed in the three Rhinemaidens

2) Tamino facing off against a highly theatrical dragon -> Siegfried slaying a highly theatrical dragon

3) Wotan and Loge's journey in Das Rheingold calls to mind the central plot of Zauberflote. I found this comparison strange when it leapt out at me, as I had expected to see Wotan as a Sarastro figure. But when I see a tenor and a bass-baritone sally forth on a mission together, I can only think of Tamino and Papageno. In terms of the tone of their relationship and interaction, I also see Almaviva and Figaro (referring to both Mozart and Rossini). This was the original observation that led to me asking whether Wotan was conceived as a comic character.

4) The general sense of a holy mission in a chaotic, creature-packed universe.


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

Hello friends: I very much enjoyed Die Walkure at the Met last night. Christine Goerke sealed the deal for me with a sweetly effervescent and expressive Brunnhilde. 

And, since I just answered Woodduck's question above about references to Mozart that I perceived in the Ring, I now have a couple more to add. I wonder if I'll keep finding more as the cycle continues - though I have to wait a couple more weeks for my Seigfried and Gotterdammerung! Anyway, here are a couple more moments in which I detected Wagner invoking the legacy of Mozart. I am not a Wagner expert so I don't know if I'm imagining these correspondences or not. Would love to know what others think or know about this. 

1) When Fricka came out in Act 2, she was perched royally on a moving throne with a curvy headpiece that looked a lot like a headdress. Specifically, it looked a whole lot like the headdress Die Konigen der Nacht always wears at the Met, and apparently elsewhere. It jumped out at me at that moment that the conflict between Fricka and Brunnhilde echoes that between the Queen of the Night and Pamina. How could I have not thought of this earlier! Well, perhaps it was the director of this opera who chose to make this visual reference so clear. And I do understand that Fricka is a mezzo. But I am wondering if Fricka's relationship to Brunnhilde may have been meant by Wagner to echo our favorite Konigen's relationship with her daughter.

2) It also jumped out at me, when Hunding warily appraises Siegmund while trying to block Siegmund's access to Sieglinde, that Hunding reminds me of Massetto. Later, as Hunding leads his pack of rustic vigilantes in search of Siegmund, it became clear to me that Wagner must have thought of this as well.

Experts and Wagnerians, am I on target here?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

marceliotstein said:


> Experts and Wagnerians, am I on target here?


I have to say that I find most of the resemblances you cite superficial and not having much to do with the meaning of the stories. Of Mozart's operas, the one that bears best a comparison with Wagner is _The Magic Flute,_ which isn't surprising given that it's a fantasy with philosophical overtones. It represents a struggle between good and evil, it's about a young hero seeking love and maturity through adventures and trials, and its symbolism centers on male and female archetypes. These are all conspicuous in Wagner's operas, most particularly _Parsifal._ If you ever saw Ingmar Bergman's film of _Flute, _you may remember the glimpse backstage where the bass who sings Sarastro is studying the role of Gurnemanz. The connection involves more than his vocal range!


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

Woodduck, what I'm trying to get at is whether or not Wagner was intentionally tipping his hat to Mozart by including these references. Whether a reference is superficial or not, the fact that the composer chooses to include the reference can be a key to understanding the composer's intent. 

And yes, I've thought all along that Zauberflote is the core reference point for the Ring, and I know this is a well-known Wagner/Mozart connection. I was wondering if there were more connections. Hadn't noticed that detail about Sarastro when I watched the amazing Bergman film - good one!


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

marceliotstein said:


> Woodduck, what I'm trying to get at is whether or not Wagner was intentionally tipping his hat to Mozart by including these references. Whether a reference is superficial or not, the fact that the composer chooses to include the reference can be a key to understanding the composer's intent.


I'm struggling to see anything in the relationship between Fricka and Brünnhilde that could be seen as a reference to die Königin and Pamina. Fricka is no one's mother, and she is resentful of Wotan's special relationship with Brünnhilde, and the latter's very existence is proof that Fricka's plan for Valhalla - that Wotan would settle down - failed. None of this echoes _Die Zauberflöte_ for me, and I don't see anywhere that Wagner adjusted the legends he was adapting to make it more like the Mozart.

What am I missing in these relationships? What connection are you seeing?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

marceliotstein said:


> Woodduck, what I'm trying to get at is whether or not Wagner was intentionally tipping his hat to Mozart by including these references. Whether a reference is superficial or not, the fact that the composer chooses to include the reference can be a key to understanding the composer's intent.
> 
> And yes, I've thought all along that Zauberflote is the core reference point for the Ring, and I know this is a well-known Wagner/Mozart connection. I was wondering if there were more connections. Hadn't noticed that detail about Sarastro when I watched the amazing Bergman film - good one!


I don't think Wagner was thinking of Mozart at all. But he did say that while composing _Tristan_ he was thinking of Bellini!

What I'm suggesting is that the references you point out are not references at all, but merely resemblances. I suspect you notice them because you're coming from a knowledge of Mozart as a point of reference. There are three ladies and three Rhinemaidens because three is a nice number - two is too few and four is unnecessary multiplication - and, mostly, because a trio makes for good vocal harmony. Tamino doesn't face off against a snake (not a dragon), he runs away from it and faints and the ladies kill it. Wotan and Loge are totally unlike Tamino and Papageno and their mission is to steal the ring, which is nothing like what Tamino and Papageno are doing. I don't see any resemblance between the mother-daughter relationship of the Queen and Pamina and Fricka's obvious contempt for Brunnhilde who, to Fricka, is merely Wotan's illegitimate offspring. And I'm quite certain that in creating Hunding Wagner was not thinking of Masetto!

It wasn't Wagner's approach to art to play around with superficial references to other people's work. As for the more genuine thematic resemblances between the stories of _Flute_ and _Parsifal_, we can say that there was a reservoir of mythic and folkloric material ancestral to both: heroes of unknown origin, wise old men, wicked queens, sorcerers, sacred quests - it's common currency. I wouldn't put it past Wagner's keenly observant mind to have noticed this common heritage at some point, but that isn't the same as incorporating explicit references to Mozart in his own work.


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

Okay, well, perhaps I let my imagination run away with me. I did feel some of these connections rather strongly, but that doesn't mean it was the composer's intent. Thanks for the responses.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

deleted...................


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