# Artists You Find Attractive & Why (Classical or Non-Classical)



## Captainnumber36

I find Gwen Stefani quite attractive. I am not a fan of her music, but I think she has a confident aura about her that is powerful for young girls. She isn't exactly cookie cutter either, and I do think she sold out a bit by leaving No Doubt, but I still think she is good looking.

Of course, no one can top Mozart; no one pulls off a powdered wig better than him!


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## Clairvoyance Enough

Cecilia Bartoli looks almost exactly like my coworker crush from my first job.


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## muzik

Brahms is super attractive, I'd be liking all his Instagram selfies if he was alive today. 
It's weird thinking about classical music composers with Instagram accounts.


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## bravenewworld

I find Leonard Bernstein attractive in the sense that when I pass the age of 50 or so I would love to look like him... very handsome in a distinguished kind of way.


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## Art Rock

70s: Agnetha Faltskog (ABBA)
80s: Kate Bush
90s: Dawn Upshaw
00's: Stacey Kent
10's: Yuja Wang


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## elgar's ghost

Satu Vänskä, principal violin with the Australian Chamber Orchestra.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Anastasia Huppmann and Janine Jansen


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## PlaySalieri

Classical music is teeming with female talent. Elegant sophisticated ladies with demure expressions, fine figures and pretty faces, particularly violinists. Too many to list and the most beautiful are unknown.


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## PlaySalieri

Haydn67 said:


> Anastasia Huppmann and Janine Jansen


Wow - I just googled Anastasia Huppmann and was so blown away I literally bought one of her CDs on Amazon - now that is what i call talent! Cant wait for it to arrive.


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## Lisztian

Saxophonist Amy Dickson.


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## Enthusiast

I would not want to be a spoil sport - if this is sport - but the marketing of classical music based on performers' looks makes me sick. If I see a young woman performer getting praised all over the shop for her playing and insight I tend to avoid her if she is being marketed for her physical attractions. I am very suspicious of the praise she gets. But if the marketers are not promoting her looks then I really do tend to believe the buzz. 

Of course, I don't mind when some here praise the looks of this or that performer but what happens when she (it is usually men about women) gets older? I remember seeing a very offensive post on an Amazon forum about Martha Argerich a few years ago (I think she was being treated for cancer at the time) comparing her to a "beached whale" with some indignation because she was no longer a 20 year old cutie.


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## Captainnumber36

Enthusiast said:


> I would not want to be a spoil sport - if this is sport - but the marketing of classical music based on performers' looks makes me sick. If I see a young woman performer getting praised all over the shop for her playing and insight I tend to avoid her if she is being marketed for her physical attractions. I am very suspicious of the praise she gets. But if the marketers are not promoting her looks then I really do tend to believe the buzz.
> 
> Of course, I don't mind when some here praise the looks of this or that performer but what happens when she (it is usually men about women) gets older? I remember seeing a very offensive post on an Amazon forum about Martha Argerich a few years ago (I think she was being treated for cancer at the time) comparing her to a "beached whale" with some indignation because she was no longer a 20 year old cutie.


I separate attraction b/w lust and love. When it comes to lust, it's all about looks, but when it comes to love, I for the most part only care if they have a beautiful soul; that is what I'm romantically attracted to.

Admittedly, I am more on the lust side for Gwen Stefani.

I completely agree that marketing based on looks at the expense of talent is hideous. When it comes to Art Appreciation, I only care about if I enjoy the work and/or performance.


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## PlaySalieri

Enthusiast said:


> I would not want to be a spoil sport - if this is sport - but the marketing of classical music based on performers' looks makes me sick. If I see a young woman performer getting praised all over the shop for her playing and insight I tend to avoid her if she is being marketed for her physical attractions. I am very suspicious of the praise she gets. But if the marketers are not promoting her looks then I really do tend to believe the buzz.
> 
> Of course, I don't mind when some here praise the looks of this or that performer but what happens when she (it is usually men about women) gets older? I remember seeing a very offensive post on an Amazon forum about Martha Argerich a few years ago (I think she was being treated for cancer at the time) comparing her to a "beached whale" with some indignation because she was no longer a 20 year old cutie.


Agreed and the problem is record companies wont take on a performer unless they have killer looks. Ida Haendel and many other female artists, Annie Fischer, Lympany etc were plain looking women - never would have become known in todays world of glamour CD covers. This is why i say the best talent is actually hidden from the public eye because of this.


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## Enthusiast

stomanek said:


> Agreed and the problem is record companies wont take on a performer unless they have killer looks. Ida Haendel and many other female artists, Annie Fischer, Lympany etc were plain looking women - never would have become known in todays world of glamour CD covers. This is why i say the best talent is actually hidden from the public eye because of this.


Maybe things get better. I can think of a couple of younger women artists who are doing very well but who are, I think, a little plain and who are not marketed for their looks. Obviously it would be crass to name them. And I can think of another, also building a huge following, and I don't even know what she looks like! But marketing by looks is still alive and well and, judging by punter reviews on Amazon, may even work to persuade people that the performances by cute young women are exceptionally fine as well.


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## Guest

*Mari Silje Samuelsen.*

I love this violinist, she is so mesmerising!

Mari Silje Samuelsen.


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## norman bates

another blonde violinist: Anastasiya Petryshak


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## Logos

This topic is vulgar. "Glam" shots of artists on album covers are sad reminder that the only thing that will sell classical music to most mass-market consumers is physical beauty.


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## Guest

I love the scrumptious , delicious, angelic voice of Phillipe Jaroussky!

An aria from the movie "Farinelli", but now with Jaroussky's voice over.


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## Bulldog

Enthusiast said:


> I would not want to be a spoil sport - if this is sport - but the marketing of classical music based on performers' looks makes me sick.


I don't have any problem with it; good looks are a bonus feature.


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## mbhaub

It is vulgar, but sadly that's where modern culture is. And it affects live concerts, not just the record biz. Today's orchestras want conductors who are young, studly men with hair that tosses about or thin, attractive women who look like athletes. You may have all the talent in the world, but if you're fat, short, homely or ugly, you will not be in front of a big orchestra any time soon. Look at the recent hires in Seattle, Indianapolis, Tucson, Los Angeles, San Diego, and elsewhere if you doubt it. Because of the public demand for attractive, youthful people record companies do the same. This is nothing new. 70 years ago the NYPO knew what it had in a glamorous looking Leonard Bernstein and exploited it. And I can't blame them.


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## Captainnumber36

mbhaub said:


> It is vulgar, but sadly that's where modern culture is. And it affects live concerts, not just the record biz. Today's orchestras want conductors who are young, studly men with hair that tosses about or thin, attractive women who look like athletes. You may have all the talent in the world, but if you're fat, short, homely or ugly, you will not be in front of a big orchestra any time soon. Look at the recent hires in Seattle, Indianapolis, Tucson, Los Angeles, San Diego, and elsewhere if you doubt it. Because of the public demand for attractive, youthful people record companies do the same. This is nothing new. 70 years ago the NYPO knew what it had in a glamorous looking Leonard Bernstein and exploited it. And I can't blame them.


I don't think discussing attraction is vulgar, human sexuality is important and real and to deny it is to deny part of the human experience.

However, I think how we go about discussing it makes all the difference.

I also agree focussing on looks solely is disgusting as well.


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## Logos

Captainnumber36 said:


> I don't think discussing attraction is vulgar, human sexuality is important and real and to deny it is to deny part of the human experience.


The suppression of sexuality is also an important part of the human experience.


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## Captainnumber36

I also think there are several musicians in the Classical Scene that are not stereotypically good looking. James Levine, Uchida, Lang Lang.

As long as I enjoy their playing, that's all I care about.


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## Captainnumber36

Logos said:


> The suppression of sexuality is also an important part of the human experience.


I wouldn't use the word suppression. I would say, understanding it on a deeper level within yourself is important. I think more evolved persons aren't driven by lust and promiscuous lifestyles, but rather, are driven by love and enriching relationships.

I think lust is something to overcome.


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## Bulldog

These are not folks who work away in a secluded lab or office. They perform in front of audiences.


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## Captainnumber36

Bulldog said:


> These are not folks who work away in a secluded lab or office. They perform in front of audiences.


That doesn't mean they should market sexual attraction. They should market the performers unique musical abilities.


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## DavidA

Enthusiast said:


> I would not want to be a spoil sport - if this is sport - but the marketing of classical music based on performers' looks makes me sick. If I see a young woman performer getting praised all over the shop for her playing and insight I tend to avoid her if she is being marketed for her physical attractions. I am very suspicious of the praise she gets. But if the marketers are not promoting her looks then I really do tend to believe the buzz.
> 
> Of course, I don't mind when some here praise the looks of this or that performer but what happens when she (it is usually men about women) gets older? I remember seeing a very offensive post on an Amazon forum about Martha Argerich a few years ago (I think she was being treated for cancer at the time) comparing her to a "beached whale" with some indignation because she was no longer a 20 year old cutie.


I believe there was a pianist called Franz Liszt who made quite a buzz with the ladies with his looks! An obvious second rater? :lol:


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## Bulldog

Captainnumber36 said:


> That doesn't mean they should market sexual attraction. They should market the performers unique musical abilities.


"Should" has nothing to do with it. Follow the money.


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## Captainnumber36

bravenewworld said:


> I find Leonard Bernstein attractive in the sense that when I pass the age of 50 or so I would love to look like him... very handsome in a distinguished kind of way.
> View attachment 107864


distinguished is my favorite type of sexual appeal.


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## DavidA

Yuja Wang is for those with amazing powers of musical concentration.


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## Captainnumber36

Bulldog said:


> "Should" has nothing to do with it. Follow the money.


I don't agree with that. I will be seeing Joshua Bell later this month in Cincinnati, and I'm sure there will be folks there just to basque in his charm and looks.

They probably couldn't care less about his immense talent. But I'm alright with the way he seems to carry himself and the way he is promoted, at least what I've been exposed to so far.


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## Captainnumber36

DavidA said:


> View attachment 107886
> 
> 
> Yuja Wang is for those with amazing powers of musical concentration.


That's disgusting.


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## Bulldog

Captainnumber36 said:


> That's disgusting.


What could be disgusting about a fine looking woman?

Some of you seem to believe that classical music transcends physical appeal. It doesn't and never will.


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## Captainnumber36

Bulldog said:


> What could be disgusting about a fine looking woman?
> 
> Some of you seem to believe that classical music transcends physical appeal. It doesn't and never will.


I like more conservative presentation of performers.


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## Captainnumber36

I take back stating that all I care about in musicians is their playing. I think how they carry themselves makes a big difference in how I interpret their playing, so I propose that it's impossible to separate presentation from the music.


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## DavidA

Captainnumber36 said:


> I take back stating that all I care about in musicians is their playing. I think how they carry themselves makes a big difference in how I interpret their playing, so I propose that it's impossible to separate presentation from the music.











I assume you don't approve of Argerich either?


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## Logos

DavidA said:


> I believe there was a pianist called Franz Liszt who made quite a buzz with the ladies with his looks! An obvious second rater? :lol:


Does _anyone_ think Liszt is a first rate composer?


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## mbhaub

Remember the old saying, the opera ain't over till the fat lady sings? Well, nowadays even that old stereotype is vanishing. Opera directors seek out young, physically fit, attractive singers. Today, you just don't want to see some 300 lb fatso singing Mimi or playing Siegfried. Even Brunnhildes have slimmed down. And it's a good thing, too. Star power + charisma + looks + talent = a terrific career, until you start using your status to bully and make sexual advances at people.


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## Logos

Bulldog said:


> What could be disgusting about a fine looking woman?


How about the fact that she's dressed like an escort?


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## Captainnumber36

DavidA said:


> View attachment 107889
> 
> 
> I assume you don't approve of Argerich either?


That is ok with me. It's still very classy.


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## Logos

mbhaub said:


> Remember the old saying, the opera ain't over till the fat lady sings? Well, nowadays even that old stereotype is vanishing. Opera directors seek out young, physically fit, attractive singers. Today, you just don't want to see some 300 lb fatso singing Mimi or playing Siegfried. Even Brunnhildes have slimmed down. And it's a good thing, too. Star power + charisma + looks + talent = a terrific career, until you start using your status to bully and make sexual advances at people.


If that's what opera is all about these days then I'm glad opera companies are hemorrhaging money.


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## Bulldog

Logos said:


> How about the fact that she's dressed like an escort?


That's your opinion, and I don't share it. Evidently, prudish thinking is going strong.


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## Judith

Captainnumber36 said:


> I don't agree with that. I will be seeing Joshua Bell later this month in Cincinnati, and I'm sure there will be folks there just to basque in his charm and looks.
> 
> They probably couldn't care less about his immense talent. But I'm alright with the way he seems to carry himself and the way he is promoted, at least what I've been exposed to so far.


Joshua Bell performs with feeling and is intense. Can feel the texture in his performances. The fact that he is good looking is an added bonus.


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## norman bates

Logos said:


> The suppression of sexuality is also an important part of the human experience.


yes, one of the worst parts without a doubt.


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## norman bates

Logos said:


> Does _anyone_ think Liszt is a first rate composer?


considering that he was maybe the most harmonically advanced composer of the late 19th century, I'd say he was certainly a great musician and not just a shallow virtuoso.


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## Brahmsian Colors

stomanek said:


> Wow - I just googled Anastasia Huppmann and was so blown away I literally bought one of her CDs on Amazon - now that is what i call talent! Cant wait for it to arrive.


*Ogle* is more like it


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## Logos

Bulldog said:


> That's your opinion, and I don't share it. Evidently, prudish thinking is going strong.


Either escorts do wear dresses like that or they don't--and factually, they do. No opinion necessary.


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## Manxfeeder

DavidA said:


> View attachment 107889
> 
> 
> I assume you don't approve of Argerich either?


I've wondered what Abbado was staring at.


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## Logos

norman bates said:


> considering that he was maybe the most harmonically advanced composer of the late 19th century, I'd say he was certainly a great musician and not just a shallow virtuoso.


What does the late 19th century have to do with the young Liszt's days as a theatrical dandy in the 1830s and 40s?


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## Becca

Logos said:


> Either escorts do wear dresses like that or they don't--and factually, they do. No opinion necessary.


So if I were to wear a dress like that then de facto I am an escort? This sounds like the classic argument that a woman attracts rape by the manner of her dress. I thought we were moving past that idiotic stage.


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## Logos

Becca said:


> So if I were to wear a dress like that then de facto I am an escort?


Not at all. But one would be dressing like an escort, which is all I've said.


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## Bulldog

Logos said:


> Not at all. But one would be dressing like an escort, which is all I've said.


You sure know a lot about how escorts dress. Is that from personal experience or movies/tv?


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## Logos

Bulldog said:


> You sure know a lot about how escorts dress.


Well I saw the trailer for Pretty Woman about 10 years ago. Seemed to be a pretty accurate documentary.


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## Manxfeeder

Captainnumber36 said:


> That's disgusting.


Actually, to me, it looks like her zipper broke.


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## KenOC

"_The suppression of sexuality is also an important part of the human experience_."

Yuja Wang is in no hurry to suppress her sexuality.


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## norman bates

Logos said:


> What does the late 19th century have to do with the young Liszt's days as a theatrical dandy in the 1830s and 40s?


and what does this question have to do with your previous one that was "Does anyone think Liszt is a first rate composer?"


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## Logos

norman bates said:


> and what does this question have to do with your previous one that was "Does anyone think Liszt is a first rate composer?"


The first Liszt related remark pertained to the young Liszt:



> I believe there was a pianist called Franz Liszt who made quite a buzz with the ladies with his looks! An obvious second rater?


That Liszt was quite a different man (and composer) from the "most harmonically advanced composer of the late 19th century" who wrote Nuages gris and La lugubre gondola. One the other hand, the young Liszt was a second rater--as a composer.


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## Logos

KenOC said:


> Yuja Wang is in no hurry to suppress her sexuality.


More likely her managers are in no hurry suppress it. I wonder how much say she has in it.


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## KenOC

Logos said:


> More likely her managers are in no hurry suppress it. I wonder how much say she has in it.


I suppose you could e-mail her and ask. My impression is that she's doing quite well by her approach to her career. From an image search on the web, she spends more time in photoshoots than at the piano. Not that I'm complaining!

A few years back she did a concert in Philadelphia and came out in one of her skimpy costumes, when that was still a new thing. The Inquirer, the big newspaper there, called her performance a "****walk." Some people are really uptight...


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## Logos

KenOC said:


> My impression is that she's doing quite well by her approach to her career.


But is it _her_ approach or an approach that has been imposed? Given the restrictive, fear-based, Chinese conservatory culture from which she emerged, it's impossible to know that. I think it's a mistake to attribute Western autonomy to a person raised in another way of doing things.


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## PlaySalieri

Captainnumber36 said:


> I also think there are several musicians in the Classical Scene that are not stereotypically good looking. James Levine, Uchida, Lang Lang.
> 
> As long as I enjoy their playing, that's all I care about.


Uchida became well known when she was already in her 40s. As a young woman she was quite impressive.


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## KenOC

Logos said:


> But is it _her_ approach or an approach that has been imposed? Given the restrictive, fear-based, Chinese conservatory culture from which she emerged, it's impossible to know that. I think it's a mistake to attribute Western autonomy to a person raised in another way of doing things.


I know a lot of native Chinese (my wife is one) and have worked many years in Hong Kong, mainland China, and Taiwan. Your views seem very strange to me. Are evil commissars holding her family hostage and forcing her into a life of degradation and shame? Is some Svengali-like Fu Manchu character exercising mind control? Inquiring minds want to know!


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## PlaySalieri

I think we need to bear in mind - as I said before - that music is an effing difficult profession to make any money out of. Bmus is starting to get micky mouse degree status as there's not much you can do with it. Think about the 10000 hours someone works for zilch (+ paying out big bucks bankrupting parents for lessons)to achieve a pro standard - graduate from the conservatoire - wait and wait for the phone to ring - join a quartet and play at weddings for £50 - take some talentless grade 3 students to pay the bills. It's no wonder that those with looks exploit it. Any means to be heard and get paid for it.

I dont begrudge this at all even if I dont like it as like most people on here I go for quality in performance. No I dont take the attitude that good looks is a bonus to quality playing - I love beautiful women as such but in music couldnt give a monkeys what someone looks like. Its irrelevant. In music I always believed I had found an area of life where superficial things are absent. 

Argerich photo taken in the 70s with Abbado - age of the mini skirt - that skirt is long by early 70s standards.


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## Logos

KenOC said:


> I know a lot of native Chinese (my wife is one) and have worked many years in Hong Kong, mainland China, and Taiwan. Your views seem very strange to me. Are evil commissars holding her family hostage and forcing her into a life of degradation and shame? Is some Svengali-like Fu Manchu character exercising mind control? Inquiring minds want to know!


Google "The Prodigy Market in China" for a Wall Street Journal article about the factory-like system by which China produces musical prodigies through parental pressure. I'd link to it, but that puts it behind a paywall for some reason. Here's an article from Lang Lang about harshness characteristic of East Asian parents and the Chinese system of musical training:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture...ng-interview-Parents-should-not-be-pushy.html

All caricatures aside, is it not evident to all observers that China is a highly repressive state and its culture shows little respect for individual inclinations--especially those of young people seen as potential golden geese?


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## PlaySalieri

Logos said:


> Google "The Prodigy Market in China" for a Wall Street Journal article about the factory-like system by which China produces musical prodigies through parental pressure. I'd link to it, but that puts it behind a paywall for some reason. Here's an article from Lang Lang about harshness characteristic of East Asian parents and the Chinese system of musical training:
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture...ng-interview-Parents-should-not-be-pushy.html
> 
> All caricatures aside,* is it not evident to all observers that China is a highly repressive state and its culture shows little respect for individual inclinations--especially those of young people seen as potential golden geese?*


Yes of course.

Do not single out China though. What goes on behind the scenes of some families pressing on children, against their will, to achieve musically across the world would most likely end up with many young people being taken into care if it was known.

Few top musicians will admit that they suffered at the hands of their parents - Lang Lang has admitted it - Michael Jackson of course though he was in pop - endured appalling violence from his father. There is a Russian pianist - Polina ... - cant recall her surname - overbearing father - wrote her book in which she accused her father of beatings - also of tearing off her dress one evening when she was playing the piano for his friends and he was not happy with her standard. Interestingly - in Nathan Milstein's autobiography he expressed horror when the music teacher that the conservatoire started beating his students mercilessly when they did not play to standard. He reflected that his behavior was entirely correct! This was the only way to make a child play and practice to the best of their ability.

None of this should surprise anyone - was not Beethoven chained to a piano by his father - Paganini suffered similar cruelty? Mozart seems to have got through childhood unscathed as there is no hint in his letters etc that there was any wrongdoing.


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## JAS

Clara Schumann is a hottie, although she is a little past her prime.


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## KenOC

The member seems to be undecided whether the misfortunes of China's musical prodigies are due to the massive pressure of a repressive regime, a "fear-based Chinese conservatory culture", or the stone-cruel hearts of Chinese parents! In the case of the sad little waif Yuja Wang, it may be helpful to see where she actually got her musical training.

"At 11, Wang entered the Morningside Music Bridge International Music Festival (at Mount Royal University in Calgary, Alberta) as the festival's youngest student. At age 15, Wang entered the Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia, where she studied for five years with Gary Graffman and graduated in 2008." (Wiki)


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## Logos

stomanek, certainly this kind of abuse can be found all over the world and throughout history, I also think it isn't evenly distributed across the world today. As one might expect, it seems to be more common in east Asian and Slavic nations that have generally poor human rights records. 

To tie this in with the the original topic -- When I see smiling glam shots of performers coming from those countries where young performers are routinely subjected to harsh discipline and control, I can't help but wonder whether this is a genuine representation that they themselves chose, or a carefully constructed facade imposed by abusive and controlling handlers, marketers, managers, parents etc.


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## PlaySalieri

KenOC said:


> The member seems to be undecided whether the misfortunes of China's musical prodigies are due to the massive pressure of a repressive regime, a "fear-based Chinese conservatory culture", or the stone-cruel hearts of Chinese parents! In the case of the sad little waif Yuja Wang, it may be helpful to see where she actually got her musical training.
> 
> "At 11, Wang entered the Morningside Music Bridge International Music Festival (at Mount Royal University in Calgary, Alberta) as the festival's youngest student. At age 15, Wang entered the Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia, where she studied for five years with Gary Graffman and graduated in 2008." (Wiki)


She started piano at age 6 and went to a music school in Beijing. She played a music festival in Canada when she was 11 - presumably travelling from China and back again. It was only when she was 15 that the prestigious Curtis Institute took her. Therefore she had her first 9 years of musical study in China.


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## Fredx2098

I think Éliane Radigue looked pretty good (a while back). I wouldn't openly suggest her music here though


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## PlaySalieri

Logos said:


> stomanek, certainly this kind of abuse can be found all over the world and throughout history, I also think it isn't evenly distributed across the world today. As one might expect,* it seems to be more common in east Asian and Slavic nations that have generally poor human rights records*.
> 
> To tie this in with the the original topic -- When I see smiling glam shots of performers coming from those countries where young performers are routinely subjected to harsh discipline and control, I can't help but wonder whether this is a genuine representation that they themselves chose, or a carefully constructed facade imposed by abusive and controlling handlers, marketers, managers, parents etc.


co-incidence that Russia/eastern block nations have turned out the bulk of the worlds great musicians in the last 100 years?
China seems determined to overhaul them.

I have said many times - the fact Britain is lagging behind in the superstar stakes is no bad thing. I would much prefer young people to have a broad education and choose how they study than be made to practice in a lonely room for 8-10 hours per day.


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## Logos

KenOC said:


> The member seems to be undecided whether the misfortunes of China's musical prodigies are due to the massive pressure of a repressive regime, a "fear-based Chinese conservatory culture", or the stone-cruel hearts of Chinese parents!


Who instigates the training? The parents, at age 6 in Yuja Wang's case. You conveniently excised this sentence from the wikipedia article, making it appear that she didn't come from a Chinese conservatory: _"At age 7, she began three years' study at Beijing's Central Conservatory of Music."_ And who pushes these young people to enter the conservatory? The parents. And yes the Chinese government does encourage and monitor the development of these cultural products, just as they see prominent athletes as symbols of national pride and subject them to strict discipline. The latter phenomenon is detailed here: https://www.businessinsider.com/a-c...s-feared-it-would-disturb-her-training-2012-8 
And here:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...tains-public-schools-says-Olympics-chief.html


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## Logos

stomanek said:


> co-incidence that Russia/eastern block nations have turned out the bulk of the worlds great musicians in the last 100 years?
> China seems determined to overhaul them.


Right, there probably is a correlation.


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## Becca

Perhaps someone should look at what she says about it...

“It’s just natural for me. I am 26 years old so I dress for 26. I can dress in long skirts when I am 40. Anyway I have many different styles, I don’t only wear short. I don’t understand why I have to explain this, I just do what is natural for me.”

"But if the music is beautiful and sensual, why not dress to fit? It’s about power and persuasion. Perhaps it’s a little sadomasochistic of me. But if I’m going to get naked with my music, I may as well be comfortable while I’m at it.” "


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## KenOC

Regarding cruel parents: Beethoven reported that his father would kick him in the leg, quite hard, whenever he missed a note at practice. He said that even in his later life, whenever he struck a wrong note, he would jerk involuntarily.

I suspect he might agree that his father contributed to his success as one of the leading virtuosi in Vienna.


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## Logos

Becca said:


> "It's just natural for me. I am 26 years old so I dress for 26. I can dress in long skirts when I am 40. Anyway I have many different styles, I don't only wear short. I don't understand why I have to explain this, I just do what is natural for me."
> "But if the music is beautiful and sensual, why not dress to fit? It's about power and persuasion. Perhaps it's a little sadomasochistic of me. But if I'm going to get naked with my music, I may as well be comfortable while I'm at it." "


If those are really her personal inclinations, that's one thing. But as in the case of carefully groomed pop performers, we have no way of distinguishing candid answers from scripted or canned ones.


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## Phil loves classical

DavidA said:


> View attachment 107886
> 
> 
> Yuja Wang is for those with amazing powers of musical concentration.


I haven't heard any of her playing that is worthwhile to listen to.


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## Captainnumber36

I don't care how good you are, if you are selling/marketing your body, I don't care to listen to you.


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## PlaySalieri

Logos said:


> Right, there probably is a correlation.


Correlation yes. But then Russia and the eastern bloc did (in soviet times) have a better system for nurturing young musicians than we do in the UK and they still do. Amateurism is not tolerated and it is against the law to teach music unless you have a music degree and teachers diploma for one thing.


----------



## KenOC

Captainnumber36 said:


> I don't care how good you are, if you are selling/marketing your body, I don't care to listen to you.


Alas, in all types of music sex has been used to sell since time immemorial. Even string quartets!


----------



## PlaySalieri

KenOC said:


> Alas, in all types of music sex has been used to sell since time immemorial. Even string quartets!


As I implied - do not judge. Musicians have to eat too.


----------



## bravenewworld

I find Argentinian (now US-based, I think?) soprano Isabel Leonard really very beautiful with a lovely face and very elegant movements. She seems to have a dignity in her beauty though and never strikes me as a person selling her sexuality in lieu of singing or acting prowess.


----------



## DavidA

Logos said:


> Does _anyone_ think Liszt is a first rate composer?


I heard he was a pretty good pianist though!


----------



## DavidA

Logos said:


> How about the fact that she's dressed like an escort?


Never had an escort myself. What does one dress like?


----------



## DavidA

Phil loves classical said:


> I haven't heard any of her playing that is worthwhile to listen to.


I have three of her recordings which are all worth listening to. But I admit she does suffer from that bane of some classical music lovers - being popular and attractive


----------



## norman bates

Captainnumber36 said:


> I don't care how good you are, if you are selling/marketing your body, I don't care to listen to you.


that's your problem onestly. I can find it distracting, but if someone is good that's what matters.
By the way, everybody who has a work is selling his or her body.
And performers who wear long skirts or elegant ties are doing that too, they are selling their body to an audience that doesn't want to see miniskirts or shirts.


----------



## DavidA

Logos said:


> All caricatures aside, is it not evident to all observers that China is a highly repressive state and its culture shows little respect for individual inclinations--especially those of young people seen as potential golden geese?[/QUOTE
> No doubt China is a repressive regime but Yuja actually started to wear more unconventional attire when her career was well launched. It is probably a late teen rebellion against the repressive regimes of both China and classical music. Bit like Kennedy whose punk phase and phony working class accent only happened once his career was established. Still a great violinist as long as he doesn't talk, in which case I find him annoying. To me Yuja's dress does not in any way diminish the brilliance of her playing. I mean, a good looking girl playing brilliantly. What not to like?
> 
> Of course, Yuja is not the only one wearing vertically challenged dresses


----------



## Enthusiast

Captainnumber36 said:


> I don't think discussing attraction is vulgar, human sexuality is important and real and to deny it is to deny part of the human experience.
> 
> However, I think how we go about discussing it makes all the difference.
> 
> I also agree focussing on looks solely is disgusting as well.


I more or less agree. The thing with these marketing pictures and glamour shots in general is that they present a fantasy rather than a real person. I doubt we would even recognise many of the artists from many of these photos if we saw them in the street. If the artist is happy with that then, to a point, fine ... but sharing our views (and actually our fantasies) on these pictures seems a little off for the main section of this forum. I don't have a problem with the more overt postings in this thread - that quartet just seems like a bit of fun and Yuja Wang seems to own the way she is presented (she presents herself). It is more when I get the feeling that the person and artist being presented is not actually the real person or artist.

I could just avoid the thread but there is a serious point as well: what happens to the artists, of equal talent and musical charisma, who are not so cute or gorgeous in a photo? Why should they fail to get contracts and bookings? And what happens to the artists who are not comfortable being presented in this way? Why should they do less well in their careers just because they do not want to submit to being ogled and having their looks discussed in serious forums like this?!


----------



## PlaySalieri

KenOC said:


> "_The suppression of sexuality is also an important part of the human experience_."
> 
> Yuja Wang is in no hurry to suppress her sexuality.


I know it's a matter of taste of course but I dont think she is attractive. I have seen pretty Chinese women and she's not one of them.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Enthusiast said:


> I more or less agree. The thing with these marketing pictures and glamour shots in general is that they present a fantasy rather than a real person. I doubt we would even recognise many of the artists from many of these photos if we saw them in the street. If the artist is happy with that then, to a point, fine ... but sharing our views (and actually our fantasies) on these pictures seems a little off for the main section of this forum. I don't have a problem with the more overt postings in this thread - that quartet just seems like a bit of fun and Yuja Wang seems to own the way she is presented (she presents herself). It is more when I get the feeling that the person and artist being presented is not actually the real person or artist.
> 
> I could just avoid the thread but there is a serious point as well: what happens to the artists, of equal talent and musical charisma, who are not so cute or gorgeous in a photo? Why should they fail to get contracts and bookings? And what happens to the artists who are not comfortable being presented in this way? Why should they do less well in their careers just because they do not want to submit to being ogled and having their looks discussed in serious forums like this?!


As it's always been, ppl with athletic bodies are going to catch the eye of ppl who only care about looks and will make more money. I think the Classical scene is most authentic though, it is full of artists that have inner beauty as well.


----------



## Captainnumber36

norman bates said:


> that's your problem onestly. I can find it distracting, but if someone is good that's what matters.
> By the way, everybody who has a work is selling his or her body.
> And performers who wear long skirts or elegant ties are doing that too, they are selling their body to an audience that doesn't want to see miniskirts or shirts.


I made a similar point before, and somewhat contradicted myself here. I prefer a more conservative sexual appeal, and lose respect for those that are showing lots of their body, which tends to be women in Classical Music.

However, if I don't like the playing, even if the sexual appeal, appeals to me, I won't listen. If I like the playing and find the sexual appeal repulsive, I won't listen. It's not my problem, it's what I value.


----------



## Enthusiast

^^^ The trouble is that the distances between good, very good and exceptional are often quite small. But they are also crucial. I do think that a lot of the fans of young women marketed for being cute make claims for the talent of these women that go a long way beyond what they would think on a blind hearing. That's the way it seems when you read punter reviews for these women's CDs on a site like Amazon. It seems to me like the women's looks have influenced some listeners' perception of the actual playing and that some reputations become inflated.


----------



## norman bates

Enthusiast said:


> ^^^ The trouble is that the distances between good, very good and exceptional are often quite small. But they are also crucial. I do think that a lot of the fans of young women marketed for being cute make claims for the talent of these women that go a long way beyond what they would think on a blind hearing. That's the way it seems when you read punter reviews for these women's CDs on a site like Amazon. It seems to me like the women's looks have influenced some listeners' perception of the actual playing and that some reputations become inflated.


I agree with your post, and it made me think of this recent one
Renée Fleming


----------



## Sid James

Classical music need not be about prudery, and perhaps it never was. Liszt is the best example I can think of who was like a 19th century equivalent of a rock star. He also got plenty of action in the bedroom, with around two dozen_ documented _love affairs. That's another thing but since when where sex and classical music separate? I mean how many children did Bach have? Say no more.


----------



## DavidA

Captainnumber36 said:


> As it's always been, ppl with athletic bodies are going to catch the eye of ppl who only care about looks and will make more money. I think the Classical scene is most authentic though, it is full of artists that have inner beauty as well.


For goodness sake let's get real. Read the lives of some of the great composers. The classical scene is no more full of people with 'inner beauty' than other professions. Let's rid ourselves of this romantic idea.


----------



## DavidA

Sid James said:


> Classical music need not be about prudery, and perhaps it never was. Liszt is the best example I can think of who was like a 19th century equivalent of a rock star. He also got plenty of action in the bedroom, with around two dozen_ documented _love affairs. That's another thing but since when where sex and classical music separate? *I mean how many children did Bach have?* Say no more.


Without doubting Bach's prowess in the bedroom to compare him with the philandering Liszt is rather unfair as his children were had legitimately by the two women he married.


----------



## Sid James

DavidA said:


> Without doubting Bach's prowess in the bedroom to compare him with the philandering Liszt is rather unfair as his children were had legitimately by the two women he married.


Its not about moral judgements, but about the obvious fact how these men both had vigorous sex lives. This is one of the topics that has traditionally almost been taboo. There was even a myth that Schubert caught syphilis from kissing a girl who was crying. You don't catch sexual diseases from drinking tears. Other composers who where most likely gay - eg. Handel and Ravel - where cloaked behind a convenient asexuality. Not many where actually that despite the fabrications - maybe Bruckner and Hildegard of Bingen - so why do we have to continue to have this almost Victorian era prudery about the issue of sex in classical music? This includes those currently working in classical music today.


----------



## KenOC

Sid James said:


> ...There was even a myth that Schubert caught syphilis from kissing a girl who was crying. You don't catch sexual diseases from drinking tears.


A more likely story (but unproven) is that Schubert caught syphilis from an underaged male prostitute. In any event, "Victorian era prudery" hardly governs all. Read the sad story of Gombert.


----------



## Enthusiast

Sid James said:


> Its not about moral judgements, but about the obvious fact how these men both had vigorous sex lives. This is one of the topics that has traditionally almost been taboo. There was even a myth that Schubert caught syphilis from kissing a girl who was crying. You don't catch sexual diseases from drinking tears. Other composers who where most likely gay - eg. Handel and Ravel - where cloaked behind a convenient asexuality. Not many where actually that despite the fabrications - maybe Bruckner and Hildegard of Bingen - so why do we have to continue to have this almost Victorian era prudery about the issue of sex in classical music? This includes those currently working in classical music today.


I am not sure I read anyone as advocating prudery. What we're talking about are which artists we find attractive and the use of a glamour approach in marketing artists' attractions. Where is the prudery?


----------



## DavidA

Sid James said:


> Its not about moral judgements, but about the obvious fact how these men both had vigorous sex lives. This is one of the topics that has traditionally almost been taboo. There was even a myth that Schubert caught syphilis from kissing a girl who was crying. You don't catch sexual diseases from drinking tears. Other composers who where most likely gay - eg. Handel and Ravel - where cloaked behind a convenient asexuality. Not many where actually that despite the fabrications - maybe Bruckner and Hildegard of Bingen - so why do we have to continue to have this almost Victorian era prudery about the issue of sex in classical music? This includes those currently working in classical music today.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with a vigorous sex life. There is - to me at any rate - a difference between having a vigorous sex life with your wife and dalliances with multiple partners. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support these speculative claims that Handel was homosexual. There were even a few rumours of a youthful fling with the soprano Vittoria Tarquini when in Italy, a favourite (and lover) of Prince Ferdinando de' Medici. I know certain academics with nothing else to do have produced theses saying Handel's music 'proves' he was homosexual. These fatuous theories, of course, depend on a view of what music is 'homosexual'. From Tchaikovsky's first piano concerto would we make out he was homosexual while (eg) Rachmaninov was not? The whole process is based on extremely questionable assumptions. Because someone is unmarried we cannot make the assumption they are automatically gay.


----------



## DavidA

KenOC said:


> A more likely story (but unproven) is that Schubert caught syphilis from an underaged male prostitute. In any event, "Victorian era prudery" hardly governs all. Read the sad story of Gombert.


That theory is probably as about as likely as the one about him kissing the girl. We know he caught it and there is only one way to catch it. How it happened we don't know.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

I find myself really conflicted over this topic. When browsing CDs, I catch myself unconsciously avoiding those that display the soloist in 'glamorous' mode all over the cover. It's about the music, not about your couture sense or your agent's sales strategy. Arriving for a piano recital recently, I spotted the evening's eminent soloist strolling in clad in Hawaiian shirt and cargo shorts. It was almost a disappointment when he turned up on stage a few minutes later in white tie and gig suit.

But on the other hand, if Yuja Wang wants to be seen dressed as a Moorcroft vase or minimally clad, that's up to her. Just so long as it actually_ is _up to her.

So do I find any musicians particularly attractive? Not really, though there is something hypnotically fascinating in Annie Fischer's highly focussed stare.


----------



## Phil loves classical

DavidA said:


> I have three of her recordings which are all worth listening to. But I admit she does suffer from that bane of some classical music lovers - being popular and attractive


Which ones, I'm curious? I'll give it a go


----------



## DavidA

Phil loves classical said:


> Which ones, I'm curious? I'll give it a go


Ravel piano concertos

The chopin and liszt sonatas

The brahms paganini variations


----------



## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> I don't care how good you are, if you are selling/marketing your body, I don't care to listen to you.


If Yuja Wang played like Richter or whoever, you would judge her by her wardrobe instead of all the work and dedication to the artistry? You expect performers to all be angels?


----------



## Gallus

Not attractive in the _romantic_ sense, but to me there is certainly something extremely imposing, charismatic about Monteverdi's portrait. The feeling that you're in the presence of one of the great Old Masters, who has forgotten more about music than you will ever know. I find that incredibly attractive in the literal meaning of the word.










I suppose it helps that, living in early 17th century Italy, he had a good painter.


----------



## Logos

Sid James said:


> Not many where actually that despite the fabrications - maybe Bruckner and Hildegard of Bingen - so why do we have to continue to have this almost Victorian era prudery about the issue of sex in classical music?


Perhaps because some of the greatest composers themselves were prudish? I'm surprised no one has mentioned Beethoven, the most famous celibate composer of all. Biographer Jan Swafford explicitly describes him as a prude. He disliked certain of Mozart's operas for their immoral subject matter and loathed anything that smacked of libertinism. Prudery (or what would seem to be prudery by modern standards) is an unavoidable part of a certain phase of the late enlightenment and some forms of romantic idealism.


----------



## norman bates

Logos said:


> Perhaps because some of the greatest composers themselves were prudish? I'm surprised no one has mentioned Beethoven, the most famous celibate composer of all. Biographer Jan Swafford explicitly describes him as a prude. He disliked certain of Mozart's operas for their immoral subject matter and loathed anything that smacked of libertinism. Prudery (or what would seem to be prudery by modern standards) is an unavoidable part of a certain phase of the late enlightenment and some forms of romantic idealism.


So since some romantic composers who lived more than hundred years ago were prudish they should be taken as an example?
Using this logic, since Gesualdo was one of the greatest composers of his century, torture and murder should be see as a a part of the glorious tradition of classical music. And what if one loves poetry? Rimbaud was a slave trader if I remember correctly. And if one is into science? Einstein treated his wife in a terrible way. I'm not sure if the fact that a person has achieved great things means that he should be taken as a example for everything.

(and by the way, there were also composers into bdsm like Percy Grainger, siphylitics like Delius, womanizers like Debussy, and you should read the interesting story of František Kocžwara)


----------



## Logos

norman bates said:


> So since some romantic composers who lived more than hundred years ago were prudish they should be taken as an example?


I think their cultural values should inform the performance of the given musical artifact which they created, and keep its stage presentation within reasonable bounds. Should idealistic music written by a 19th century prude be performed by someone dressed like a lady of the night? One might as well wear a bikini to a funeral. How about, at minimum, not wearing something that would have caused the composer himself great embarrassment?


----------



## millionrainbows

Elinor Frey: she looks just fine to me. A helluva cellist, too.


----------



## norman bates

Logos said:


> I think their cultural values should inform the performance of the given musical artifact which they created, and keep its stage presentation within reasonable bounds. Should idealistic music written by a 19th century prude be performed by someone dressed like a lady of the night? One might as well wear a bikini to a funeral. How about, at minimum, not wearing something that would have caused the composer himself great embarrassment?


I think that music is music, and the fact that some of those composers were wearing wigs doesn't mean that I have to wear a wig too.


----------



## elgar's ghost

Gallus said:


> Not attractive in the _romantic_ sense, but to me there is certainly something extremely imposing, charismatic about Monteverdi's portrait. The feeling that you're in the presence of one of the great Old Masters, who has forgotten more about music than you will ever know. I find that incredibly attractive in the literal meaning of the word.
> 
> I suppose it helps that, living in early 17th century Italy, he had a good painter.


Good haircut for 17th century standards as well.


----------



## Logos

norman bates said:


> I think that music is music, and the fact that some of those composers were wearing wigs doesn't mean that I have to wear a wig too.


I don't recall anyone suggesting that. Failing to wear a wig in the late 18th century might have been seen as unfashionable or ill-mannered, whereas a woman having her entire leg hanging out in front of an audience of ladies and gentleman would have been met with strong moral opprobrium. No need to observe all superficial fashions, but I should like a performance not to violate the composers strongly held morals since otherwise it will be incongruous with the aesthetics and values that informed the creation of the music itself.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

Phil loves classical said:


> If Yuja Wang played like Richter or whoever, you would judge her by her wardrobe instead of all the work and dedication to the artistry? You expect performers to all be angels?


Thank you Phil. I now have a mental image of Richter in a backless frock. I may need therapy.


----------



## norman bates

Logos said:


> I don't recall anyone suggesting that. Failing to wear a wig in the late 18th century might have been seen as unfashionable or ill-mannered, whereas a woman having her entire leg hanging out in front of an audience of ladies and gentleman would have been met with strong moral opprobrium. No need to observe all superficial fashions, but I should like a performance not to violate the composers strongly held morals since otherwise it will be incongruous with the aesthetics and values that informed the creation of the music itself.


And I disagree with this since I think that I can enjoy the music of a person without needing to adhere to their morals. Even because the morals of Messiaen (a devote christian) and Percy Grainger (a sadomasochist enthusiast) and all composers in general aren't necessarily the same. There isn't anything like a "classical moral", but different men with different ideas living in different centuries and cultures who happened to make the same thing (music).

Mozart loved fart and poop jokes, what do you think an audience should do at concert with his music?


----------



## jdec

Khatia Buniatishvili.
Why? self-explanatory.


----------



## Bulldog

Logos said:


> I think their cultural values should inform the performance of the given musical artifact which they created, and keep its stage presentation within reasonable bounds. Should idealistic music written by a 19th century prude be performed by someone dressed like a lady of the night? One might as well wear a bikini to a funeral. How about, at minimum, not wearing something that would have caused the composer himself great embarrassment?


There you go again with that ridiculous prostitute connection. Also, dead composers do not get embarrassed.


----------



## Manxfeeder

I think Roxanna Panufnik is attractive, even as she enters her 50s. She has such a great smile.


----------



## DavidA

Logos said:


> I don't recall anyone suggesting that. Failing to wear a wig in the late 18th century might have been seen as unfashionable or ill-mannered, whereas a woman having her entire leg hanging out in front of an audience of ladies and gentleman would have been met with strong moral opprobrium. No need to observe all superficial fashions, but I should like a performance not to violate the composers strongly held morals since otherwise it will be incongruous with the aesthetics and values that informed the creation of the music itself.


Sorry but you have this romantic idea that the great composers were great people in their personal lives and that simply is not true. Many of them were hopelessly inadequate outside their music.


----------



## Logos

> And I disagree with this since I think that I can enjoy the music of a person without needing to adhere to their morals.


It's not a matter of adhering in the sense of actually agreeing with their morals, but of presenting their works without startling ethical incongruities that jar with the nature of the artist and his work.



> Mozart loved fart and poop jokes...


Yes, in private communications never intended for the public eye that bear no relationship either to his musical aesthetic or professed ethical beliefs.


----------



## Logos

DavidA said:


> Sorry but you have this romantic idea that the great composers were great people in their personal lives and that simply is not true. Many of them were hopelessly inadequate outside their music.


I hold no such idea. On the contrary I'd say that most of the great composers were generally wretched and otherwise unremarkable men.


----------



## joen_cph

Just another Russian pianist.


----------



## norman bates

Logos said:


> It's not a matter of adhering in the sense of actually agreeing with their morals, but of presenting their works without startling ethical incongruities that jar with the nature of the artist and his work.


well, it would be certainly interesting to see a piece of Percy Grainger with female musicians naked and whipped.


----------



## Sloe

For non classical music.

Amerie:










The musical performer Lisette Pagler:










The members of Red Velvet:










The members of T-Ara:


----------



## Sloe

For classical performers:

Hyunju Park Korean soprano:










Lilla Lee Korean soprano:










Mihoko Kinoshita Japanese soprano:










Ryoko Sunakawa Japanese soprano:










And why I just think they are incredibly georgeous women.


----------



## Larkenfield

Beautiful… but overpowering.


----------



## Larkenfield

Becca said:


> Perhaps someone should look at what she says about it...
> 
> "It's just natural for me. I am 26 years old so I dress for 26. I can dress in long skirts when I am 40. Anyway I have many different styles, I don't only wear short. I don't understand why I have to explain this, I just do what is natural for me."
> 
> "But if the music is beautiful and sensual, why not dress to fit? It's about power and persuasion. Perhaps it's a little sadomasochistic of me. But if I'm going to get naked with my music, I may as well be comfortable while I'm at it." "


General comments on her interesting comments. What "sadomasochism" has to do with her feeling "comfortable" is hard to imagine. Being comfortable with herself is somehow related in her psychology as sadomasochism?... I find some of her short skirts extremely distracting. But she's so in demand as a pianist, so talented, so extraordinary, so uncanny, that I see something in her nature that makes her want to distance herself from her audience, perhaps even alienate them, by doing exactly what she wants to do and she makes the audience lump it, no matter how much it might draw attention away from the music. Now, I could easily see that as being sadomasochistic toward her adoring audience, or at least extremely narcissistic, perhaps as a mental quirk. Nevertheless, it's doubtful that one should ever expect her to change, and perhaps the sometimes noticeable visual distractions and narcissism is the price her live audience is expected to pay in order to enjoy her extraordinary genius, except on a CD.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Larkenfield said:


> Beautiful… but overpowering.


I think a lot of performers can learn from her for more sensuality, by putting the seat further back, requiring them to strain.


----------



## DavidA

Logos said:


> I hold no such idea. On the contrary I'd say that most of the great composers were generally wretched and otherwise unremarkable men.


Look back at your posts. That is not what you said.


----------



## DavidA

Larkenfield said:


> General comments on her interesting comments. What "sadomasochism" has to do with her feeling "comfortable" is hard to imagine. Being comfortable with herself is somehow related in her psychology as sadomasochism?... I find some of her short skirts extremely distracting. But she's so in demand as a pianist, so talented, so extraordinary, so uncanny, that I see something in her nature that makes her want to distance herself from her audience, perhaps even alienate them, by doing exactly what she wants to do and she makes the audience lump it, no matter how much it might draw attention away from the music. Now, I could easily see that as being sadomasochistic toward her adoring audience, or at least extremely narcissistic, perhaps as a mental quirk. Nevertheless, it's doubtful that one should ever expect her to change, and perhaps the sometimes noticeable visual distractions and narcissism is the price her live audience is expected to pay in order to enjoy her extraordinary genius, except on a CD.


I don't think the youngsters who attended a youth concert felt themselves distanced.


----------



## norman bates

Larkenfield said:


> Beautiful… but overpowering.


well, this to me is an example where the music seems not being the point anymore.


----------



## juliante

Wow. At the risk of getting a high level of opprobrium.... shouldn't this thread be buried deep in the community forum...!?


----------



## Dedalus

Meow!

I also can't understand why people take such umbrage at attractive performers showing off their assets. There is nothing to be ashamed about the human body, and we're all designed to enjoy the look of pretty women and handsome men. However, at the end of the day, what a performer dresses like is rather unimportant. I can't imagine not listening to a performer simply because one doesn't like their outfit. Their appearance and their music is entirely orthogonal. Judging somebody's work because they are too beautiful is just as bad as judging their work because they are too ugly. Seems like a strange personal hang up is causing some people to disqualify certain performers unfairly.


----------



## elgar's ghost

Just a question after seeing the sartorial choices of Wang and Astanova - would shoes with high and thin stiletto heels be somewhat impractical footwear for pedal work? On a shiny floor I'd thought they'd be sliding all over the place.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> I think a lot of performers can learn from her for more sensuality, by putting the seat further back, requiring them to strain.


I think she actually played quite well despite her outfit choices. I enjoy her interpretation!


----------



## Captainnumber36

Dedalus said:


> View attachment 108000
> 
> 
> Meow!
> 
> I also can't understand why people take such umbrage at attractive performers showing off their assets. There is nothing to be ashamed about the human body, and we're all designed to enjoy the look of pretty women and handsome men. However, at the end of the day, what a performer dresses like is rather unimportant. I can't imagine not listening to a performer simply because one doesn't like their outfit. Their appearance and their music is entirely orthogonal. Judging somebody's work because they are too beautiful is just as bad as judging their work because they are too ugly. Seems like a strange personal hang up is causing some people to disqualify certain performers unfairly.


For me it's not about how they look but about how they present themselves.


----------



## Logos

DavidA said:


> Look back at your posts. That is not what you said.


I wrote nothing to contradict that. If you believe I did, by all means quote it.


----------



## Logos

Captainnumber36 said:


> For me it's not about how they look but about how they present themselves.


Exactly, and many of the examples we've seen are so tacky, overdone, trashy, and silly that even the producers of a telenovela or a Vegas nightclub would suggest being a little less obvious. One's first impulse is to laugh in some cases: 8 inch heels, caked on makeup, dresses hiked up to the polar regions, garish colors and spangles--It's ridiculous. I guess some men like to get knocked over the head with kitschy caricatures of sexiness. To others, this kind of cheesy showgirl aesthetic is not attractive in the slightest.


----------



## Tallisman

Captainnumber36 said:


> That's disgusting.


Look, I find this a little ridiculous too. But Christ, next you'll be flagellating yourself and shacking up in a monastery. 'Disgusting'? Come on, now. That's the kind of thing you hear from some obsessively chaste Catholic priest who turns out to have other interests in the altar boys (that'll get me banned, no doubt). It's okay to accept an attraction to the female form.


----------



## Tallisman

Captainnumber36 said:


> I also think there are several musicians in the Classical Scene that are not stereotypically good looking. *James Levine*, Uchida, Lang Lang.
> 
> As long as I enjoy their playing, that's all I care about.


Erm. .............


----------



## Sid James

KenOC said:


> A more likely story (but unproven) is that Schubert caught syphilis from an underaged male prostitute. In any event, "Victorian era prudery" hardly governs all. Read the sad story of Gombert.


Schubert is one of the most elusive of composers when it comes to his sexual life, or his life oustide of music in general. Primary sources such as letters are scarce and most accounts by people who knew him where recorded decades after his death. He may have been bisexual, evidence is less than circumstantial on that. He was prone to living a life of partying once he got cashed up by a sale of a set of songs, but shortly afterwards he would become broke and the cycle continued. Some accounts we have place him as a regular visitor to the seedier parts of Vienna.

Why mention Gombert? He was a paedophile. I can't see your logic in bringing this up here.



Enthusiast said:


> I am not sure I read anyone as advocating prudery. What we're talking about are which artists we find attractive and the use of a glamour approach in marketing artists' attractions. Where is the prudery?


I think there has been expression here of let's say uptight attitudes to what female musicians wear today. My point in regards to Liszt is that there if its okay for him to travel Europe, sow his wild oats like some sexual beast, then its okay for a woman to wear the clothing she chooses for a concert. What about things like Strauss' Salome? The Kaiser judged the opera as harmful to the composers' reputation, without seeing it but Strauss' clever retort was that it did him so much damage that it funded his villa in Garmsich.

Sex always sells. If Wang and Buniatishvili use it to their advantage, so what? Its always been done, and going back to Liszt or Strauss, even if it is used as an enticement it doesn't necessarily invalidate the artistic worth of what's on offer.

Then there's avant-garde performances such as naked women doing a highbrow version of jelly wrestling to the chord piece by Yves Klien. Of course this is in service of high art and it tends not to make a profit, so we don't judge this, do we?



DavidA said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with a vigorous sex life. There is - to me at any rate - a difference between having a vigorous sex life with your wife and dalliances with multiple partners.


True, but I wasn't thinking in terms of morality, more about having an open discussion about these sorts of issues.



> There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support these speculative claims that Handel was homosexual. There were even a few rumours of a youthful fling with the soprano Vittoria Tarquini when in Italy, a favourite (and lover) of Prince Ferdinando de' Medici. I know certain academics with nothing else to do have produced theses saying Handel's music 'proves' he was homosexual. These fatuous theories, of course, depend on a view of what music is 'homosexual'. From Tchaikovsky's first piano concerto would we make out he was homosexual while (eg) Rachmaninov was not? The whole process is based on extremely questionable assumptions. Because someone is unmarried we cannot make the assumption they are automatically gay.


There's enough circumstantial evidence to support that Handel was gay. I mean filling the gaps with educated guesses. That's why I said its likely he and Ravel where gay. I've read that Handel's fling was invented by biographers as a cloak, similar to James Dean's situation having to date women as a front to his homosexuality. There's firmer evidence that others (eg. Corelli) was gay, and with others like Tchaikovsky its beyond doubt, even though he married in an attempt to gain respectability as a straight.

Of course all of this happened when homosexuality was heavily punished, sometimes by death. The hypocrisy was that many in the upper class where gay, or had an open attitude towards it within their cliques, and the real sin was not doing it but getting caught (like Oscar Wilde).



Logos said:


> Perhaps because some of the greatest composers themselves were prudish? I'm surprised no one has mentioned Beethoven, the most famous celibate composer of all. Biographer Jan Swafford explicitly describes him as a prude. He disliked certain of Mozart's operas for their immoral subject matter and loathed anything that smacked of libertinism. Prudery (or what would seem to be prudery by modern standards) is an unavoidable part of a certain phase of the late enlightenment and some forms of romantic idealism.


Its understandable for creative people, especially those of genius, to retreat into their art. Its likely others where genuinely either not interested or just not successful in love. One I can think of closer to our time is Boulez, there are innuendos around him being celibate and as far as I know this wasn't refuted or confirmed by him. Its perfectly okay for these people to have their sex lives off limits, especially while they are alive. I mean this in terms of consensual sex, not criminal offences like paedophilia or sexual assualt. That's a matter for the courts.


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## Logos

Sid James said:


> There's enough circumstantial evidence to support that Handel was gay.


 I don't think that's the consensus that the majority of scholars have reached. In fact, most of the recent biographical literature with which I'm familiar spends considerable time emphasizing the absence of any evidence for this claim. And secondly, describing someone as "gay" or homosexual in an 18th century context is anachronistic since there was no such sociological category in those days. It's a bit like calling the characters in Othello racist; Whereas in the early 16th century racial categories had not yet been clearly established, let alone racist ideology. Homosexual acts were thought of as sins in which any man might indulge if he was tempted, not only "gay" men or men of a certain homosexual typology.

I don't think applying modern social terms to male relationships of the 18th or even 19th century is very helpful. It leads to all sorts of bizarre cultural misunderstandings, as for example the fringe theories about Lincoln being "gay" because he wrote impassioned letters to a man or slept in the same bed with his fellow lawyers when traveling. This is unhistorical thinking resulting from an inadequate understanding of the norms of the period.


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## DavidA

Sid James said:


> *There's enough circumstantial evidence to support that Handel was gay. I mean filling the gaps with educated guesses.* That's why I said its likely he and Ravel where gay. *I've read that Handel's fling was invented by biographers as a cloak*, similar to James Dean's situation having to date women as a front to his homosexuality. There's firmer evidence that others (eg. Corelli) was gay, and with others like Tchaikovsky its beyond doubt, even though he married in an attempt to gain respectability as a straight.


There is absolutely no evidence that Handel was gay. Your 'circumstantial evidence' is just what you say - guesses! You have to fill in the gaps by your own imagination. You have read Handel's 'fling' was invented by biographers? Others say it wasn't. The current obsession to define people's sexuality on the basis of little or no evidence is a popular pastime with ridiculous books being written full of unsubstantiated suppositions. The best answer is there is no concrete evidence whatever.


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## joen_cph

> The current obsession to define people's sexuality on the basis of little or no evidence is a popular pastime with ridiculous books being written full of unsubstantiated suppositions.


+1, I agree with this.


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## Merl

Logos said:


> I don't think applying modern social terms to male relationships of the 18th or even 19th century is very helpful. It leads to all sorts of bizarre cultural misunderstandings, as for example the fringe theories about Lincoln being "gay" because he wrote impassioned letters to a man or slept in the same bed with his fellow lawyers when traveling. This is unhistorical thinking resulting from an inadequate understanding of the norms of the period.


So Handel never went on the Gay Pride march when in London or got spotted drinking in 'New York New York' , when in Manchester? I'm disappointed.


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## Larkenfield

Merl said:


> So Handel never went on the Gay Pride march when in London or got spotted drinking in 'New York New York' , when in Manchester? I'm disappointed.


Not likely that he did... And to quote his _Messiah_: "Hallelujah." If an author is interested in some historical person's sexuality and comes to controversial conclusions, at least according to other historians in the same field, I think it's only fair to know the sexual orientation of the controversial authors who may be deeply prejudicial to claim a composer's sexuality for what may be their own orientation or to promote some other cultural agenda. In Handel's case, who was a terribly busy man as a composer with his productions, and also deeply devoted as a Lutheran, there may a tendency for certain authors to turn what might have only been a footnote in a composer's life and try to make it a novel. Even if it was true in Handel's life, what indications are there that he was even that interested in sex? Love and relationships, yes, even perhaps including divine love, in his music. But I've never gotten the impression that it was that important to him, being more of a workaholic and a person of deep religious convictions. There are also some individuals in the world who are essentially asexual and sublimate most of the sexual drive into accomplishing their work. Maurice Ravel would have undoubtedly fit into that category. Music seems to have been his mistress or mister. Maybe someone should write a controversial book on his disinterest in it and make a big deal out of it when it probably wasn't that important to him at all.


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## joen_cph

I can relate to trying to examine if say a marginalized or hidden sexual orientation can also be a lead as regards certain, recognizable aspects in a composer´s or an artist´s oeuvre. But the amount of evidence should be reasonable and plentiful, then - or the possible aspect is of less interest.


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## DavidA

Larkenfield said:


> Not likely that he did... And to quote his _Messiah_: "Hallelujah." *If an author is interested in some historical person's sexuality and comes to controversial conclusions, at least according to other historians in the same field, I think it's only fair to know the sexual orientation of the controversial authors who may be deeply prejudicial to claim a composer's sexuality for what may be their own orientation or to promote some other cultural agenda.* In Handel's case, who was a terribly busy man as a composer with his productions, and also deeply devoted as a Lutheran, there may a tendency for certain authors to turn what might have only been a footnote in a composer's life and try to it into a novel. Even if it was true in Handel's life, what indications are there that he was even that interested in sex? Love and relationships, yes, even perhaps including divine love, in his music. But I've never gotten the impression that it was that important to him, being more of a workaholic and a person of deep religious convictions. There are also some individuals in the world who are essentially asexual and sublimate most of the sexual drive into accomplishing their work. Maurice Ravel would have undoubtedly fit into that category. Music seems to have been his mistress or mister. Maybe someone should write a controversial book on his disinterest in it and make a big deal out of it when it probably wasn't that important to him at all.


There are people who just want to promote their own cultural agenda - and also academics who want to make a name for themselves who invent daft theories. Like the theory trotted out on little or no basis that Mozart suffered from Tourette's syndrome.


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## BiscuityBoyle

Being horny is an essential part of going online. Good job keeping it real, fellas.


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## DeepR

I'm OK with Yuja Wang. Maybe the dresses are a little bit too much (or should I say too little), but I believe the music still comes first for her.

Lola Astanova on the other hand... she simply markets herself as a sex doll at the piano. It's so obvious it's about showing off her body and her playing. She perfectly fits today's social media world where countless (would-be) models and celebrities post sexy pictures of themselves on Instagram in a continuous search for validation. It's all very superficial and with a heavy focus on looks.
Lola just happens to play the piano and she's pretty good at it too. But let's cut the cr*p: she uploads videos such as these so people can say how hot she is.


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## norman bates

Logos said:


> And secondly, describing someone as "gay" or homosexual in an 18th century context is anachronistic since there was no such sociological category in those days.


besides other things (like your definition of anachronism, even because for what I know in the ancient Greece homosexuality was considered normal): are you saying that being attracted by persons of your same sex could not be called homesexuality for you because homosexuals weren't called (at least, according to what you're saying) homosexuals?


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## Logos

norman bates said:


> besides other things (like your definition of anachronism, even because for what I know in the ancient Greece homosexuality was considered normal): are you saying that being attracted by persons of your same sex could not be called homesexuality for you because homosexuals weren't called (at least, according to what you're saying) homosexuals?


The anachronism consists in the conception of "gayness" as being exclusive to a specific _type_ of person or _identity_, rather than characterizing a set of behaviors in which any man might indulge if tempted or so inclined. The colloquial term "gay" is especially problematic when applied to past times since it creates the misconception that there is a cultural and psychological similarity between today's homosexuality and that of say, ancient Sparta or feudal Japan.

To put it in the simplest terms, it's an anachronism because while homosexuality existed in past centuries, there was no such thing as a gay _identity_, and the psychology of identity is the primary way in which people today conceptualize homosexuality--i. e., as an essential category of human being, almost like a biological race or ethnic minority. Historically however, homosexuality _as a definite psycho-social identity_ is a recent artificial construct that has no validity in being applied to remote periods. Non-academic writers and journalists imagine that when they discover that a given historical figure had homosexual inclinations, they have discovered his _identity_ or fundamental self--as if he were a late 20th or 21st century man who would have defined himself in that manner. This is entirely wrongheaded and unscholarly.

Historian Alan Bray in his study on homosexuality in renaissance England addresses this point directly: _To talk of an individual in this period being or not being a "homosexual" is ruinously misleading._ His words could be applied equally to the 18th century, or the 5th century BC for that matter.


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## DavidA

DeepR said:


> I'm OK with Yuja Wang. Maybe the dresses are a little bit too much (or should I say too little), but I believe the music still comes first for her.
> 
> Lola Astanova on the other hand... she simply markets herself as a sex doll at the piano. It's so obvious it's about showing off her body and her playing. She perfectly fits today's social media world where countless (would-be) models and celebrities post sexy pictures of themselves on Instagram in a continuous search for validation. It's all very superficial and with a heavy focus on looks.
> Lola just happens to play the piano and she's pretty good at it too. But let's cut the cr*p: she uploads videos such as these so people can say how hot she is.


There is a difference between someone like Yuja Wang who is a terrific artist and happens to dress to enhance her good looks and someone who relies on their looks to market them rather than their ability as an artist


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## Barbebleu

stomanek said:


> I know it's a matter of taste of course but I dont think she is attractive. I have seen pretty Chinese women and she's not one of them.


Should have gone to Specsavers! :lol:


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## DavidA

I'm in admiration of Deborah Voigt for her courageous decision to have surgery in order to slim. Does make her know a credible stage presence.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/feb/17/deborah-voigt-soprano-book-call-me-debbie-addiction


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## norman bates

Logos said:


> The anachronism consists in the conception of "gayness" as being exclusive to a specific _type_ of person or _identity_, rather than characterizing a set of behaviors in which any man might indulge if tempted or so inclined. The colloquial term "gay" is especially problematic when applied to past times since it creates the misconception that there is a cultural and psychological similarity between today's homosexuality and that of say, ancient Sparta or feudal Japan.
> 
> To put it in the simplest terms, it's an anachronism because while homosexuality existed in past centuries, there was no such thing as a gay _identity_, and the psychology of identity is the primary way in which people today conceptualize homosexuality--i. e., as an essential category of human being, almost like a biological race or ethnic minority. Historically however, homosexuality _as a definite psycho-social identity_ is a recent artificial construct that has no validity in being applied to remote periods. Non-academic writers and journalists imagine that when they discover that a given historical figure had homosexual inclinations, they have discovered his _identity_ or fundamental self--as if he were a late 20th or 21st century man who would have defined himself in that manner. This is entirely wrongheaded and unscholarly.
> 
> Historian Alan Bray in his study on homosexuality in renaissance England addresses this point directly: _To talk of an individual in this period being or not being a "homosexual" is ruinously misleading._ His words could be applied equally to the 18th century, or the 5th century BC for that matter.


I don't even know what it means psycho-social identity and what it should imply (even because in my homosexuals are as different between them as heterosexuals), or when you think it started. Like, 1899, man with another man: not gay then 1900 man with another man: gay.
You should elaborate more because like this it doesn't sound very convincing to me.


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## Logos

> I don't even know what it means psycho-social identity and what it should imply (even because in my homosexuals are as different between them as heterosexuals), or when you think it started. Like, 1899, man with another man: not gay then 1900 man with another man: gay. You should elaborate more because like this it doesn't sound very convincing to me.


The notion of a distinct "gay" identity is largely the product of the sexual revolution of the 1960s, further developed in the 70s, and was crystalized in the 80s by the shared experience of the HIV/AIDS crisis. I really don't think you understand the distinction that I'm trying to make. I've quoted a reputable historical authority on the history of homosexuality published by Cambridge University Press; I've given examples from different times and places; I've rephrased and reiterated to the point of sounding like a broken record. Psycho-social is defined as "_relating to the interrelation of social factors and individual thought and behavior_".

Let me sum up the main points:

1. Before the mid 20th century, homosexuality was not conceptualized as an identity applicable to a fixed minority, but as a form of debauchery or luxury (usually thought of as accompanied by other forms) in which any vicious man might engage if tempted. _All men_ were potentially susceptible because of man's fundamental corruptibility. Edward Coke for example defined homosexuality as caused by "pride", "ill diet", and "contempt of the poor"--altogether typical of the early modern attitude.

2. Therefore, people did not define themselves and were not defined by society as being a homosexual "type" of person distinct from other men.

3. For these reasons, it is anachronistic to apply the word "gay" or any notions connected with a distinct homosexual identity to historical figures since those notions did not yet exist.


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## norman bates

Logos said:


> The notion of a distinct "gay" identity is largely the product of the sexual revolution of the 1960s, further developed in the 70s, and was crystalized in the 80s by the shared experience of the HIV/AIDS crisis. I really don't think you understand the distinction that I'm trying to make. I've quoted a reputable historical authority on the history of homosexuality published by Cambridge University Press; I've given examples from different times and places; I've rephrased and reiterated to the point of sounding like a broken record. Psycho-social is defined as "_relating to the interrelation of social factors and individual thought and behavior_".
> 
> Let me sum up the main points:
> 
> 1. Before the mid 20th century, homosexuality was not conceptualized as an identity applicable to a fixed minority, but as a form of debauchery or luxury (usually thought of as accompanied by other forms) in which any vicious man might engage if tempted. *All men were potentially susceptible because of man's fundamental corruptibility. *Edward Coke for example defined homosexuality as caused by "pride", "ill diet", and "contempt of the poor"--altogether typical of the early modern attitude.
> 
> 2. Therefore, people did not define themselves and were not defined by society as being a homosexual "type" of person distinct from other men.
> 
> 3. For these reasons, it is anachronistic to apply the word "gay" or any notions connected with a distinct homosexual identity to historical figures since those notions did not yet exist.


So this is a theory based on the fact that all men are attracted by men and women, and that the division between heterosexuals and homosexuals is just a matter of costume and culture. I have definitely a lot of problems to take this as a fact.
And the idea of "corruptibility" applied to homosexuality smells of religion.


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## Logos

> So this is a theory based on the fact that all men are attracted by men and women, and that the division between heterosexuals and homosexuals is just a matter of costume and culture.


No, this is a question of how people in past centuries regarded homosexuality in themselves and in others. Their belief (in early modern Europe for example) as a matter of historical record, was that any man (because of man's fallen state) could potentially be tempted to engage in homosexual acts as simply one of many forms of debauchery. Whether one thinks that historical belief is correct or nonsensical is irrelevant to the question at hand.



> And the idea of "corruptibility" applied to homosexuality smells of religion.


Of course it does. That's the whole point--I'm talking about a man born in 1552. We are dealing with periods much more steeped in religious notions than today. If one's description of pre-industrial society doesn't "smell of religion" then that description is inaccurate.


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## norman bates

Logos said:


> No! No! No! This is a question of how people in past centuries regarded homosexuality in themselves and in others. Their belief (in early modern Europe) as a matter of historical record, was that any man (because of man's fallen state) could potentially be tempted to engage in homosexual acts as simply one of many forms of debauchery.
> 
> Of course it does. That's the whole point--I'm talking about a man born in 1552. We are dealing with periods much more steeped in religious notions than today.


 but the fact that centuries ago people thought that all men could have been tempted doesn't mean it's true. I could say also that in past centuries men had a lot of wrong scientific theories, but I would not say that since their sensibility was different I can't say that I could consider those theories "right in that context": because I don't think that context does have any importance if one says that the earth was the center of the universe for instance. So to me to call a homosexual has the same sense for a modern man as for one who lived in the 18th century. That is simply: a man attracted by another man (or a woman attracted by another woman), even if the cultural perception of homosexuality then was different, absent or reduced to "corruptibility".


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## Logos

norman bates said:


> but the fact that centuries ago people thought that all men could have been tempted doesn't mean it's true.


Whether or not they were correct has nothing to do with anything. As historian Alan Bray writes, using the term homosexual to describe historical figures may be acceptable as long as it is understood only in a _"physical--and hence culturally neutral--sense"_, and one is sure that the audience will not assume that modern notions of sexual identity existed in the past. Unfortunately, such misunderstandings do frequently occur when historical figures are described as "gay" since it gives a false sense of similarity between social phenomena in vastly different eras.


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## Larkenfield

Lola's impressive credentials: she can play.


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## Sid James

Logos said:


> I don't think that's the consensus that the majority of scholars have reached. In fact, most of the recent biographical literature with which I'm familiar spends considerable time emphasizing the absence of any evidence for this claim...





DavidA said:


> There is absolutely no evidence that Handel was gay. Your 'circumstantial evidence' is just what you say - guesses! You have to fill in the gaps by your own imagination. You have read Handel's 'fling' was invented by biographers? Others say it wasn't. The current obsession to define people's sexuality on the basis of little or no evidence is a popular pastime with ridiculous books being written full of unsubstantiated suppositions. The best answer is there is no concrete evidence whatever.





joen_cph said:


> +1, I agree with this.


My point was that homosexuality has been covered up throughout the history of music. The examples of Handel and Ravel are controversial, on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 standing for certainty of homosexuality being difficult to prove and 10 for it being easiest to prove) they would rate something like 2 or 3. However it can't be denied that Tchaikovsky (who can be rated at 10) had whitewash applied to the issue of his sexuality until fairly recently, and the thread below in which I did one of the first posts discussed this in depth:

Tchaikovsky was not gay, says Russian culture minister

Issues of sexuality can still be important, and I for one am glad that scholars have opened things up to examine issues that where previously taboo. Whether I was judicious in focussing on this on the present thread can be questioned. I think that there are parallels between the urge to control what musicians wear and the efforts to sanitise history by wiping out sexuality as an issue.


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## Logos

Sid James said:


> I think that there are parallels between the urge to control what musicians wear and the efforts to sanitise history by wiping out sexuality as an issue.


I don't see how this line of argument lends legitimacy to either side since for every sanitized musician, there is a musician who was himself a puritanical sanitizer. I should add that the sanitization of history is itself a part of history that tells us as much about the past as what is sanitized. You seem to be implying that the "real" history of the 18th or 19th century is sexual, whereas I would say that the impulse to sanitize is just as "real" and important a cultural revelation as what it sanitizes.


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## PlaySalieri

Sid James said:


> My point was that homosexuality has been covered up throughout the history of music. The examples of Handel and Ravel are controversial, on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 standing for certainty of homosexuality being difficult to prove and 10 for it being easiest to prove) they would rate something like 2 or 3. However it can't be denied that Tchaikovsky (who can be rated at 10) had whitewash applied to the issue of his sexuality until fairly recently, and the thread below in which I did one of the first posts discussed this in depth:
> 
> Tchaikovsky was not gay, says Russian culture minister
> 
> Issues of sexuality can still be important, and I for one am glad that scholars have opened things up to examine issues that where previously taboo. Whether I was judicious in focussing on this on the present thread can be questioned. I think that there are parallels between the urge to control what musicians wear and the efforts to sanitise history by wiping out sexuality as an issue.


Wow - that Tchaik thread dates back to 2013.

All the great Russian figures in history share in common a certain standard - none were gay - all were perfectly normal and reasonable in their sexuality - they married the opposite sex and if they did not marry it was because dedication to their work and making Russia the great country it is was a lifelong quest - so rather they were martyrs who denied themselves domestic bliss for the greater good of the country. This axiom is self evident and requires no further enquiry.

By contrast - as the cases of Oscar Wilde and countless other cases prove - deviant sexuality and drug abuse were rife in the lax cultural world of the western powers.

But to this day these cases did not and do not happen in Russia.


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## Merl

........


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## John King

More Jazz than Classic, but here is Riyoko Takagi, a gal who combines unmistakable talent with undeniable beauty! PS - No bunnies were used in the production of "Autumn Leaves".

















Incidentally, so many seem to have a chip on their shoulder about how a celebrated Georgian is so _Khurvaceous_, and not shy about displaying her _Khleavage_, or putting the _Bun_ in _Buniatishvili_. What draws me to her is that she is so passionate when she plays.


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## Phil loves classical

^ It was a pretty tough watch for me. Especially the Bunny Girl, the way she flirts with the camera is pretty devilishly cheap.


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## tdc

Alina Ibragimova
Eniko Ginzery
Kaori Muraji


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## John King

Well, another artist I find attractive is Leezy, who seems to exist solely on YouTube. Again, no bunnies were used in the production of the one vid.


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## MatthewWeflen

Yuja Wang is certainly an attractive woman, but I'm partial to Alice-Sara Ott, myself.








ASM is a venerable "golden oldie" at this point.








Sarah Willis at the BPO also does it for me. And I love her accent.


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## John King

Taimane Gardner is rather plain looking, but she does have that 'Mona Lisa' like beauty to her. And one description of her always stuck with me, she is a 'Lioness On The Prowl'! And, to top it off, here instrument of choice is the _Ukulele_!


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## John King

Now here you have, not one or two, but three beautiful musicians why are quite adept at their instruments, violinist *Rusanda Panfili* , pianist *Donka Angatscheva *and cellist *Teordora Miteva *.


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## CatchARisingStar

I'm surprised this topic even exists on TC. I was under the impression that its members were above 70 with a living room stereo that costs as much as a Tesla 3, possess such a serious demeanor they make Scrooge look like Peter Pan, dine regularly at Four Seasons, Le Cirque, Tavern On The Green and the Russian Tea Room, only smoke cigars with a Bolivar Belicosos Fonos Reserva Cosecha 2016 label, golf regularly with Phil Mickelson at Augusta National, considers Bill Gates a close personal friend, and don't give a toss how attractive the pianist is on their new Deutsche Grammaphon Special Edition CD. Could've fooled me!


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## Strange Magic

Three-Quarters Naked and Beautiful: Yuja Wang (No photo required--To quote long-gone TC member Morimur, if you haven't seen Yuja Wang, You Must Be Dead.)

Fully and Richly Clothed and Beautiful: Polina Osetinskaya, here--


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## Rogerx

CatchARisingStar said:


> I'm surprised this topic even exists on TC. I was under the impression that its members were above 70 with a living room stereo that costs as much as a Tesla 3, possess such a serious demeanor they make Scrooge look like Peter Pan, dine regularly at Four Seasons, Le Cirque, Tavern On The Green and the Russian Tea Room, only smoke cigars with a Bolivar Belicosos Fonos Reserva Cosecha 2016 label, golf regularly with Phil Mickelson at Augusta National, considers Bill Gates a close personal friend, and don't give a toss how attractive the pianist is on their new Deutsche Grammaphon Special Edition CD. Could've fooled me!


I do hope you do not lose sleep over you presumptions .


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## fbjim

CatchARisingStar said:


> I'm surprised this topic even exists on TC. I was under the impression that its members were above 70 with a living room stereo that costs as much as a Tesla 3, possess such a serious demeanor they make Scrooge look like Peter Pan, dine regularly at Four Seasons, Le Cirque, Tavern On The Green and the Russian Tea Room, only smoke cigars with a Bolivar Belicosos Fonos Reserva Cosecha 2016 label, golf regularly with Phil Mickelson at Augusta National, considers Bill Gates a close personal friend, and don't give a toss how attractive the pianist is on their new Deutsche Grammaphon Special Edition CD. Could've fooled me!


Well, you know what they say about old men...


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## fbjim

As far as "attractive artists" go, one of my all time favorite stories (it's one of those stories where it's too funny to care about it being true or not) is that Salvador Dali saw Rick James at a beach in the 1980s, declared him one of the most beautiful people he had ever seen, and drew a sketch of him on a piece of notebook paper, which promptly got destroyed when Rick James forgot it was in his swimwear and went into the ocean. 

Dali was something of a looker back in his day, by the way.


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## Shaughnessy

CatchARisingStar said:


> *I was under the impression that its members... dine regularly at Four Seasons, Le Cirque, Tavern On The Green and the Russian Tea Room*


If, by "dine regularly", you mean panhandling for "spare change" in front of these dining establishments and being handed doggie bags when the patrons exit... Then, yeah... I guess they do. -


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## John King

*Connie Han *jazz pianist noted for performing in stiletto heels!


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## John King

Cellist *Mariko Muranaka*


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## Rogerx

2022 and this is a disgustingly sexist this topic 😞


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## John King

*Valentina Igoshina ! *


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## fbjim

Rogerx said:


> 2022 and this is a disgustingly sexist this topic 😞


hey i tried to post some dudes


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## 4chamberedklavier

Rogerx said:


> 2022 and this is a disgustingly sexist this topic 😞


Talking about which artists you find attractive isn't necessarily sexist, although given the nature of the internet, discussing this in a tasteful way seems like treading a fine line. I still think it's okay, since people here at TC are generally more well-behaved, and so far, I haven't noticed any outright sexist comment by any poster in here, unless I missed something.


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## Red Terror

Since this topic is already considered by some to be unapologetically vulgar, it's only appropriate that the more enlightened among us attempt to redeem it with a bit of wisdom:
All humans fart; emit foul smells from every orifice, defecate, and pick their noses—without exception. I've never once entered a bathroom after a good-looking person (man or woman) had detonated a bomb and exclaimed "Ah, it smells soooo good in here!" Humans are disgusting creatures, especially when no one is looking, but we like to walk around and pretend that our **** doesn't stink; I find this laughable and ridiculous. So next time you spot a good looking man or woman, remind yourself that they are just as human as you are—this will sober you up and arm you against idolatry. We're all **** bags.


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## Nate Miller

that was a nice try at cleaning this mess up, but my favorite artist is still Taylor Swift

she's hot


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## Rogerx

fbjim said:


> hey i tried to post some dudes



I don't need pictures from "dudes" I am annoyed about the comments made by members when a disc from The Sound and the Fury or Beauty Farm appears, I don't buy that kind of covers, how narrow minded can one be?

Just remembered the comments about the Sibelius cycle by
Klaus Mäkelä

They , some of the members thought and probably think it's disgusting. 2022 .


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## Judas Priest Fan

I don´t care what any artist/musician looks like. It´s all about the music and talent to me.

This applies to Classical as well as to Metal/Rock. 

I don´t listen to pop music; never have, never will. But in Pop music, (supposed) good looks seem to be much more important than talent.


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## EvaBaron

Judas Priest Fan said:


> I don´t care what any artist/musician looks like. It´s all about the music and talent to me.
> 
> This applies to Classical as well as to Metal/Rock.
> 
> I don´t listen to pop music; never have, never will. But in Pop music, (supposed) good looks seem to be much more important than talent.


To me it’s also all about the music and talent. But when the OP invites us to name a few artists I find attractive doesn’t mean I can’t name a few. Even though musically I couldn’t care less. And the way you look is much more important with classical music. Female and black composers weren’t a thing until relatively recently. And btw trust me if you make good songs and you don’t have good looks no one cares. You will still be popular


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## Wilhelm Theophilus

Rogerx said:


> 2022 and this is a disgustingly sexist this topic 😞


What has the year we are in got to do with anything?


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## Wilhelm Theophilus

Red Terror said:


> Since this topic is already considered by some to be unapologetically vulgar, it's only appropriate that the more enlightened among us attempt to redeem it with a bit of wisdom:
> All humans fart; emit foul smells from every orifice, defecate, and pick their noses—without exception. I've never once entered a bathroom after a good-looking person (man or woman) had detonated a bomb and exclaimed "Ah, it smells soooo good in here!" Humans are disgusting creatures, especially when no one is looking, but we like to walk around and pretend that our *** doesn't stink—I find this laughable and ridiculous. So next time you spot a good looking man or woman, remind yourself that they are just as human as you are—this will sober you up and arm you against idolatry. We're all *** bags.


Thanks for enlightening us and redeeming this topic by talking about our toilet habits


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## Waehnen

Rogerx said:


> Just remembered the comments about the Sibelius cycle by
> Klaus Mäkelä
> 
> They , some of the members thought and probably think it's disgusting. 2022 .


What comments did you find offensive about the Klaus Mäkelä Sibelius cycle discussion? I remember not liking the cover where they emphasized the face of the maestro.


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## fbjim

Pogo could slay them in his youth, I'm telling ya.


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## Enthalpy

*Sophie Dervaux*.

Because she plays so nicely: WVQk5qDeEFM - XRWTp10N0JQ
Because she seems clever.
Because she improved her German impressively: before - after
Because her beauty isn't banal: facebook
I wonder why she lets shave her arm hairs and even, gasp! reduce her nice eyebrows for some concerts. Is that a cultural matter? In France and Spain her hairs would be unusual but accepted, in Germany accepted of course. Would they be rejected in some countries, maybe in Asia? What do you think?


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## Red Terror

Opera singer Lise Davidsen.


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## Rogerx

Waehnen said:


> What comments did you find offensive about the Klaus Mäkelä Sibelius cycle discussion? I remember not liking the cover where they emphasized the face of the maestro.


Offensive is a great word but a few days ago I posted the pic in Current listening thread and voila, someone had to say something about the cover. ( Again)


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## Enthalpy

*Lola Descours*, because she plays so nicely
Lensky's Aria - Harlem nocturne - Bach's Cello 1
and because she's cute


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## 4chamberedklavier

I think Martha Argerich is nice looking, even in her old age.


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## Mandryka

One thing to bear in mind is that some musicians use sexual provocation to promote their merchandise. I think one very clear example is Lucas and Arthur Jussen - look at their gestures and grimaces on their YouTube videos and see if you don’t agree.


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## Yabetz

Regardless of age or even living/deceased status: Kathleen Battle, Yuja Wang, Debbie Harry, Kate Bush, Alisa Weilerstein, Tina Turner, Selena Quintanilla, Martha Argerich, Lisa Della Casa, Edith Mathis. I could probably think of a lot more.


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## prlj

4chamberedklavier said:


> I think Martha Argerich is nice looking, even in her old age.


Claudio would agree...(as would I)


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## Rogerx

Mandryka said:


> One thing to bear in mind is that some musicians use sexual provocation to promote their merchandise. I think one very clear example is Lucas and Arthur Jussen - look at their gestures and grimaces on their YouTube videos and see if you don’t agree.


I saw them talking about it on a TV programme, they have a stylist contract, I think they get there clothes for free or a smal price. IF you see them in private when traveling, Instagram / Twitter, they just look like two teenagers,


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## Red Terror

Enthalpy said:


> *Lola Descours*, because she plays so nicely
> Lensky's Aria - Harlem nocturne - Bach's Cello 1
> and because she's cute


That’s one handsome bassoon.


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## Red Terror

Larkenfield said:


> Beautiful… but overpowering.


Lola A$$-tanova 🥸


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## Scherzi Cat

Thanks for asking. Here are a few:

Sol Gabetta, Hilary Hahn, Nicola Benedetti, Olga Scheps, Vilda Frang, Nina Kotova, Vanessa Benelli, Alice Sara Ott, Helene Grimaud, Janine Jansen, Arabella Steinbacher, Anna Vinnetskaya, Camille & Julie Berthollet, Sarah & Deborah Nemtanu, Christina & Michelle Naughton, Tine Thing, Alina Vahala, Sarah Willis, Christina Gomez Godoy, Magali Mosnier, Maris Cecilia Munoz, Francesca Dego, Leticia Moreno, Ana-Maria Vera, Ksenia Sidorova, Franziska Pietsch, Lise De La Salle, Anneleen Lenaerts, Camille Thomas, Dorothee Oberlinger, Nadege Rochat, Lisa Batiashvilli…

I like something nice to look at while I listen and I don’t see a problem with putting a pretty face on old music to make it appealing.


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## Manxfeeder

Red Terror said:


> That’s one handsome bassoon.


You do that too? I look at Amy Dickson and think, "I'd love to get my hands on that soprano saxophone." No, seriously, that's what I'm thinking.


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## eljr

Yabetz said:


> Debbie Harry


In her day in the sun, no one was of greater beauty. 
Today, the sun shines on Shakira.


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## staxomega

CatchARisingStar said:


> living room stereo that costs as much as a Tesla 3, possess such a serious demeanor they make Scrooge look like Peter Pan, dine regularly at Four Seasons, Le Cirque, Tavern On The Green and the Russian Tea Room, only smoke cigars with a Bolivar Belicosos Fonos Reserva Cosecha 2016 label, golf regularly with Phil Mickelson at Augusta National, considers Bill Gates a close personal friend


What is a Tesla?


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## Enthalpy

Enthalpy said:


> *Sophie Dervaux*.
> 
> Because she plays so nicely: WVQk5qDeEFM - XRWTp10N0JQ
> Because she seems clever.
> Because she improved her German impressively: before - after
> Because her beauty isn't banal: facebook
> I wonder why she lets shave her arm hairs and even, gasp! reduce her nice eyebrows for some concerts. Is that a cultural matter? In France and Spain her hairs would be unusual but accepted, in Germany accepted of course. Would they be rejected in some countries, maybe in Asia? What do you think?


A picture speaks thousand words


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## prlj

staxomega said:


> What is a Tesla?


Tesla


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## eljr

Why do I find Tina Guo attractive? 
She is sun core hot, is experimental in her approach and she is young.


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## Red Terror

eljr said:


> Why do I find Tina Guo attractive?
> She is sun core hot, is experimental in her approach and she is young.


WTF? 😂


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## Yabetz

eljr said:


> Why do I find Tina Guo attractive?
> She is sun core hot, is experimental in her approach and she is young.


"Yuja Wang, hold my beer..."


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## DaveM

eljr said:


> In her day in the sun, no one was of greater beauty.
> Today, the sun shines on Shakira.


Maybe not for long since she is facing a trial that could result in up to 8 years of imprisonment in Spain for alleged tax evasion.


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## eljr

DaveM said:


> Maybe not for long since she is facing a trial that could result in up to 8 years of imprisonment in Spain for alleged tax evasion.


Yes, I am aware, She rejected a plea deal so I think she feels strongly as to her innocents. I can't image a man alive could convict her.


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## Animal the Drummer

eljr said:


> Why do I find Tina Guo attractive?
> She is sun core hot, is experimental in her approach and she is young.


If you don't know it already, I recommend you do a search on Sir Thomas Beecham's words to a lady cellist whose efforts he, er, didn't rate highly.


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## mikeh375

Perhaps someone should tell Tina Guo that the horsehair should be in contact with the strings, not the body or bridge.


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## golfer72

Helene Grimaud and Yuja Wang


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## Enthalpy

mikeh375 said:


> Perhaps someone should tell Tina Guo that the horsehair should be in contact with the strings, not the body or bridge.


But you drift away from the discussion topic, which is:
"Artists you find attractive".


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## mikeh375

Enthalpy said:


> But you drift away from the discussion topic, which is:
> "Artists you find attractive".


yeah, my bad


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## hammeredklavier




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## John King




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## John King

Most people just know Yuna Kim as the 2010 Olympic Figure Skating champion and 2014 Olympic Silver Medalist. Here we see another side to this Korean beauty:


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## Simon Moon

Most of the classical artists I would have mentioned, have already been mentioned.

So, here a some nonclassical.

*Adrianna Plaza - Classically trained keyboardist from prog / avant-prog band, Kotebel, from Madrid, Spain.*










*Elisa Montaldo - Leader and keyboardist of Italian prog band, Il Tempio Delle Clessidre.




















Nori Bucci - jazz-fusion guitarist with legitimate chops.











Esperanza Spalding - Jazz bass great and vocalist.*


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## Enthalpy

Could she exemplify what a _bête de scène_ (beast of the stage) is? *Michal Elia Kamal*




Women, don't psyche yourselves out for a few body hairs!

More from this band
Gypsy Love - Istanbul - Geut - Oshan Song

This can serve as a biography
br-klassik.de


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## eljr

Simon Moon said:


> Esperanza Spalding - Jazz bass great and vocalist.


I already motioned her. Lovely and comes with a heart warming story. A young woman to be admired.


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